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Friday, August 10, 2012

Corsets as Outerwear?

You know what's interesting? The role of corsets in the shifting role of underwear as outerwear. Every lingerie item you can think of has--at some point--taken a starring role in fashion, rather than being relegated to underneath clothing: bustiers, camisoles, slips, even panties. (Sorry, I can't stop saying the p word!)

But! Corsets are the only undergarment I can think of that are now thought of only as outerwear by the masses. They were originally worn exclusively underneath dresses, of course. While they may be an antiquated garment, there is a huge number of modern women--seamstresses and otherwise--fascinated by the corset. After making my first corset and spending much time on the various corsetry message boards and sites, I discovered something that surprised me: almost all these women are making or buying corsets to be worn almost exclusively as outerwear. (The exceptions to this are corsets worn in boudoir situations, fetish, and reenactments.)

In fact, the notion of a corset being underwear is now on the fringes. Corsetry as lingerie is usually mentioned only for those most extreme corset wearers: tightlacers--or people who wear their corsets for long periods of time (sometimes 23 hours a day) and lace very tightly, in an effort to modify their bodies. Accurately or not, this type of corset wear is associated with fetishism and BDSM lifestyles.

What a fascinating shift! If a Victorian woman showed her corset, it would be shocking, and I'm sure she would be thought of as a very loose woman (read: hooker). But now a woman showing her corset is in the mainstream, and a woman wearing her corset as underwear is the perverse one.

Worth gown

I'm interested in corsets pretty much only as foundation garments, in a historical sense. My further research (which I can share if you're interested!) has shown that traditional corsets were alive and well in the late 40s and early 50s. The silhouette of a Dior gown or a Jacques Fath suit would be impossible to achieve otherwise. And so, I find myself a bit in the fringes in the world of corsetry.

However, corsets were also making their way to outerwear status in the 50s, to the shock of some. This vintage pattern shows a corset-styled belt. (Though it's worth noting that, unless fully steel boned, this belt would be decorative rather than functional.)

89 comments:

Separate corsets worn as outerwear (outside a costume context) rarely look good, in my opinion. But then that could very easily be down to the poor construction and fitting of most of the corsets you seen being warn in this way.

I agree but also concur that it is poor fits that cause the majority of problems, leading to flanging armpits, and, even worse, squished muffin tops when they are too short and worn with tight jeans or something. If fitted correctly and suitably I believe that they can be incredibly sexy, but you must be honest about how you actually look in the thing. I think the under bust style (with other garment) is a lot more forgiving for most women. I am hoping to make my first corset soon, and it is to be strictly an undergarment. If I think I look ace in it, I might venture further (but feel this is unlikely).

My interest in corsets has shifted from outerwear to underwear as I’ve gotten more into historical sewing (well, theoretically, anyway. I haven’t made much, in practice).

I do like the idea that in modern fashion they can function as both simultaneously—shirt and support in one, as it were.

And they truly can be works of art that deserve to be seen.

A note on your vintage pattern for corset-like belts: that type of outerwear had been popular (on and off) from around the 1840s on, typically called swiss waists. They could have some boning and support but not as much as a corset, and would have been worn in addition to a (hidden) corset. I think that these swiss waists are what gave Steampunks their predilection to wearing the supportive garment out the outside.

Thanks for mentioning the swiss waists! I always think of those when I see the steampunk outfits. Plus, swiss waists don't seem to have had any titillating implications when they were worn; they were just pretty and added interest to a nice outfit.

I don't mind is a club/going out wear, but those corset back wedding dresses are just hideous to me. I understand they give a great fit without a lot of tailoring, but I just don't like the look. There's nothin elegant or classic about it.

Did you live in or visit Miami at the end of the 90's and early 2000's? Thongs were definitely making their way out of waaaay too many skirts and jeans to not be noticed. They were a pseudo accessory. I never understood why.

I think it depends - some are meant to be outerwear, while others are meant to be foundation garments. A lot of it depends on the materials. I happen to own a couple of corsets meant for outerwear and they're made of leather. I find them comfortable, even for long periods of time. As for the foundation ones, I don't have any, but think they are similar to Spanx, so there's nothing wrong with them either. The foundation ones would be of cotton (I would assume) or some other basic fabric (sometimes I've seen them in satin and the like). I think both are valid, as long as you're not exposing anything indecent (to get you arrested). :)

I love the look of corsets with jeans or similar! It can be a really interesting clash of ideas. But I think corsetry can be beautiful in any context, it's just a question of the corset being done well.

I grew up in the last 60s and 70s when there was a great rebellion against all restrictive underwear. (I didn't wear a bra most of the time through college.) At that time the corset was not common, but the girdle was. I'm afraid these roots prevent me for seeing a corset as anything but uncomfortable. That said, I think they look rediculous as outerwear, but I'm just a frumpy middle-aged matron!

I like corset belts, but can't say that I find corset tops my kinda thing. I don't mind them on others though, unless it's pushing the boobs way up and out in your face! I definitely don't wear them as underwear since I live in Texas, and it's too durn hot!

I love corsets as outerwear, but less so when they're satiny. I love the industrial element of grommets and laces. I used to wear a vintage longline bra I had as a top, but I was 21, and it was the late 80's. Also it covered me up more than my bathing suit!

Both! With a Steampunk outfit, it's either the bodice [overbust,] with a jacket, or vest/belt [underbust] worn over a blouse. And I have come to appreciate the skirt-supporting quality of a longer corset worn under. It really makes the skirt flow.

Like poster Victoria, corsets invoke flash backs of being restricted and in general "stuffed." Even though we were painfully thin, the parents demanded supporting bra and girdle, they were required dressing, so that no jiggling occurred! I have seen some corset as outerwear looks that were rather nice but in general they feel costume-like to me.

Gertrude, thanks so much for mentioning my pattern! I was wondering about this question myself today after entering a corset giveaway over on Sew Retro. I'm a bit old-fashioned about wearing a corset over clothing myself.. maybe it's because I was raised by a mother who made custom Victorian style corsets... I think the corset belt is about the only type that I would wear... over clothing, that is :) Simplicity 3302 is a good example of the late 1930's corset style belt being worn over a dress: http://vintagepatterns.wikia.com/wiki/Simplicity_3302

I'm an old prude: I don't want to see your underwear as outerwear, and that includes corsets. I love cincher belts and I don't mind corset-style lacing and other details incorporated into dresses, but I don't like seeing an actual corset worn over or without anything else.

I don't entirely agree that corsets have become mainstream outerwear. You really don't see the average woman wearing a corset around on the streets. Celebrities are not representative of the majority of people's sartorial habits. You certainly couldn't get away with it as professional office wear!When/if people DO wear corsets as outerwear it's almost always within very specific contexts such as clubwear or as part of a subculture. In all cases corsets are worn for the purpose of getting attention and projecting a subversive or edgy message/persona (to varying degress depending, again, on context) - essentially for the purpose of looking non-mainstream. Corsets are still very imbued with a sexual/erotic character are more strongly associated with lingerie than daywear. They're a form of lingerie that is meant to be worn with nothing underneath, but still recognized and considered lingerie rather than everyday wear.

To add to Rae's above comment on corset belts/swiss waists, the Dreamstress wrote a whole post about this not long ago: http://thedreamstress.com/2012/07/swiss-waist-waist-cincher-corset-and-corselet-whats-the-difference/

Yeah, I totally see where you're coming from here. I guess what I meant was that the majority of people who buy corsets intend them for outerwear, which is different from saying it's mainstream! Good point, as always. :)

I think corsets can be very pretty, so it's tempting to wear them as outwear, but I have to disagree with your labelling of "sort of elegant" in the above photos. I just don't think it looks right with jeans or with belly showing (rather I don't find it ugly, just not "elegant") even though the fabric and shaper are very nice and flattering in some way. I love love love the Jacques Fath dress with corset lacing at the back. THAT definitely qualifies as elegant in my books!Thanks for the post... such interesting and true thoughts!

I have worn a corset as outerwear on occasion, but I would never wear one with jeans. I don't like the flesh on show. I'm not prudish in the slightest, I just feel that it detracts from the look of the corset.

I think corsets as outerwear have their place -- usually in combination with a subculture or as part of a fashion statement (see the Galliano Fall Couture collection). However, the obi belt trend seems to be visually similar to the smaller corsets so I expect there's some crossover there too.

I have a custom one that I do like wearing as underwear since I find that it's more supportive than many bras since it seems to distribute the weight over the length of the boning as opposed to resting the weight on my shoulders.

I'm really interested in corsetry in both contexts. I've been making wedding dresses this year and would love to use the corset as the structure of a dress/ bodice, without the front busk. Most of my friends have worn corsets as outerwear for hen do's. I have an idea in my head of an elegant overbust bodice in a stunning brocade worn with a long skirt, something satiny/ drapey as evening wear. would probably look way better than most strapless dresses that you see today!

I've seen corsets worn as outerwear that looked lovely. I recently built a corset to wear under my clothing, and I was kind of surprised by the reception. My husband didn't really like it, since it wasn't my "real" shape. Other people referred to it as "torture". And in general it was seen as trying to be sexy or some sort of fetish. When I wanted to make it, I joined a livejournal community, and there were a number of people who wore them to help with back issues.

Interesting comments. Since corsets worn as fashion become 'mainstream' in the 1980's, I think that they have had a fairly regular cycle of popularity, so you might say that they are now an established fashion garment (or accessory). How successful that look is depends alot on the corset itself as mentioned by others here. A good fit is expensive to achieve, but it makes all the difference!

I love them with (higher waisted) skirts and hate them when paired with jeans. I don't consider corsets as outerwear a new thing. The corset inspired look has been popular for a while now in evening wear, and many bridal gown bodices now are very structured and similar to a corset. The traditional German/eastern european dirndl bodice reminds me a lot of a corset worn over a blouse.

I would love for them to be more popular as foundation garments. It seems like every time I go to a wedding I see at least one woman stuffed into a cocktail dress with the heavily strained zipper about to break. Corsets not only would give a smoother look, but take some of the stress off of the zipper and help prevent wardrobe malfunctions.

Great rambling! Although I know that the whole underwear-as-outerwear trend is very popular - I wear "loungwear" tops with my jeans and skirts all the time - I never considered the fact that corsets are the only underwear that is solely worn today as outerwear. I also didn't know that corsets were used up until the 1950s. Neat information.

I think corsets can be sexy and classy if done right. But like you show in your last photo, corsets can also be gaudy.

I have worn my first corset as outerwear as a part of a costume but I have also worn it as underwear when I wanted a little help in the waist circumference.

I have to say, I REALLY like wearing the corset as underwear because it eleviates back pain that is a result of wearing bras to hold up my DDs. I also love being able to wear strapless tops without the hideous monoboob that I get with most strapless bras.

The next corset I make will be a serious attempt with the intention to wear it as underwear on a more regular basis (clothing style permitting).

The history nerd in me compels me to also point out that corsets as we know them now owe much to their origins in the baleen-stiffened "bodies" (later "bodice") of late Renaissance-era gowns. (The V&A has several later, 17th century bodices made in this way as well.) The surviving examples are mostly upper-class garments, but they show the evolution of a baleen-stiffened, body-contouring outer garment which was eventually absorbed into fashion as a shaping undergarment.

I have long had a fascination with corsets, mostly starting after trying one on for a play I was in. I recently bought my first corset and am currently sitting here hand-basting a seam for sewing my first corset. I am in love. I would say I am far from the world of fetishism or s&m, but I wear my corset exclusively as an undergarment. I have a very hourglass figure to start with, and I dress in much vintage of a mostly 50/60s look, and the corset brings the lines of these to a whole new level. I don't do any kind of extreme tight-lacing, though I would love to learn to lace down further. I only lace down the tiniest bit to a 28" exterior, but between me already being hourglass and the way that the corset mostly shapes you off of the sides of your waist, it looks considerably smaller than that and is enough to elicit many compliments a day. I have had almost no issue in dressing so that the corset is unnoticeable beneath clothes, even in summer. Certainly, I am sure there are those out there who have been influenced to think of corsets in certain ways, but I don't see how it is any different that the numerous women out there who wear padded bras or spanx. I hope that the re-emerging appreciation of the hourglass figure that I am noticing these days will help people look at corsets from a new point of view.

Looks like I'm on the fringes yet again. I thought actual corsets fit in one of the following: fetish, sexy boudoir, or underwear.

I agree with brocadegoddess and Emilie.

I guess I just figured most of the steampunk stuff was of the swiss-waist variety - more belt than corset. Also, since I am not into clubbing, I haven't seen the whole "corset as a shirt" thing. I sure haven't seen it on the street in downtown Portland Oregon. :) To me, if it is made of fabric one would see in outerwear, it could be considered outerwear (denim? cotton print?, a silk brocade? corduroy? ha!). If it's plain white satin, then it is underwear and in my opinion, not elegant as outerwear. (Trashy comes to mind.) The Jacques Fath dress is elegant. The black/blue one with the jeans isn't elegant, but it is pretty with an edgy/sexy vibe to it.

That said, I would wear it an an undergarment, and possibly as an outergarment if I could figure out a way to not look costume-y or trashy.

Lol, made me laugh (But now a woman showing her corset is in the mainstream, and a woman wearing her corset as underwear is the perverse one.)

I just know that seeing those brides with their corset lacing on their backs gives me the creeps. It's the anti- thesis to elegance. I asked my seamstress to cover the lace with tiny lace covered buttons. So I guess i don't like to know / see a woman is wearing a corset. Built in ones are another matter completely. Look at this example- my favorite- http://pinterest.com/pin/222294931577866662/

Until your Corset Week, I thought corsets were only for historical costumes. Seeing the waist cincher, I went to Macy's in search of something comparable. Only elastic-y undergarments that undoubtedly would roll up like all other elasticized, shapeless garments. Now that all my materials have arrived, I plan to make my first corset as underwear! I would never go out in public with it showing. But then again, I have always referred to myself as a temporally-displaced Victorian.

Thanks for this stream of consciousness Gertie and others. I had become fascinated by corsets when my back started giving me lots of trouble. I do physio exercises every day but wondered if a little extra support externally might help. Last week I received my kit from 'Sew Curvy' and last night I finished all the hand stitching of the bias binding. I am in love with this garment. It satisfies my desire for a fully tailored garment and seems like it will be a great platform for all sorts of hand embellishment. This waist cincher was made in white satin coutil, I used cotton shirting to line and bound the edges and modesty panel in a gorgeous aqua, red and white quilting cotton. Its so young and fresh (despite me not being either!!). Onto the next incarnation I think... hmm full length corset next and my mind boggles with the flossing possibilities!

Hey Gertie, it is interesting that you have pointed this out, as up until now, my corsetry dreams have been completely under-garment based. In fact, i also have the Sew Curvy kit you made yours from (though am yet to make it - used the boning on my bustier dress instead!), so your adventures in the corset making world have definitely spurred me on a bit. But anyway, back to the point. I personally can't stand the look of the 'casual corset', it seems to me sacrilegious to pair such a beautifully created garment with a pair of jeans. At the same time, i have no intention of stepping out in a full Victorian ensemble. So, basically, that just leaves me with one last option, as an undergarment, giving me shape, structure and support, which sounds perfect to me!

I wore a full boned corset for my wedding to give me the shape I wanted under my dress. I have also worn that same corset for a few other functions. As a foundation garment it is sometimes needed and it isn't something that SPANX can really do.

This is exactly the same as me. I also wore a corset under my tea-length wedding dress to really define the silhouette. I'm all for soft shaping too which is why I think there's been a shift - women don't think of SPANX as corsets, but that's their origins.

I have been considering a corset as an undergarment recently, mainly since I have been exploring more vintage clothing. As you say, there are some garments which I do believe need corsetry to look as they should. I have long considered that my generation (I'm 34) and younger lack an understanding of what proper underwear is for, and neglect it terribly! It's ok to be comfy and casual, but sometimes you need the whole look to be polished and this is unattainable without the correct foundations. I've never worn a corset as underwear, but I would if I thought it was required. I also think it would be a lot more comfortable than wearing one as outerwear! :-)

I became interested in corsets a couple of years ago when I saw one designed as a Star Trek Next Gen uniform top with the bottom swoosh, it looked really cool. I've made several of my own since then, some underwear, some outerwear. I think what distinguishes an 'outie' from an 'innie' is the fabric used for the top layer, some fabrics just says 'underwear'. Also a longline Edwardian, or the S-line corset doesn't lend it's self easily to outerwear, while earlier corsets, such as a Tudor, Georgian or a Victorian under bust lend themselves to modern dress sensibilities. If constructed properly they are actually quite comfortable to wear, and can give your aching back support when you've been leaning over a computer all day, or standing on your feet; posture is also improved-you can't slouch, and they can add a nice definition to your waist. You don't have to lace them tightly, and there should be a gap in the back (you can put in a modesty panel to hide back cleavage). There should never be a back shelf!

Regarding the idea of a"loose" woman. By definition, such a woman--a prostitute--would *not* be corseted, hence "loose." She also would be likely to advertise her profession by standing around her place of business in only a shift or nightgown. Much more efficient, from her perspective, and her clients', than a pile of petticoats and a tight bodice.

These associations of loose clothing with weak morals and prostitution led to some interesting laws in the nineteenth-century American west that, essentially, prohibited women from wearing what we would consider housedresses in public. The "wrapper" of the period was a loose dress with just a fitted unboned inner bodice for support. With the hard work and heat of the American plains, it's easy to understand why women took to these garments, but townspeople felt they had to uphold public decency in banning them. It's perhaps akin to what would happen if we banned people from wandering the grocery store in pajama pants and tank tops with bra straps in plain view.

Maybe I'm getting the corset confused with another garment, but I thought that they dated well back to Elizabethan times, when they were used as outerwear over a smock-top that usually had a square neckline and went anywhere from mid-thigh to top of the knees. If that's correct, then those silly old Victorians made something that was outerwear into underwear, and now it's come back into play. The corset was initially used commonly as a way to, ahem, lift and separate, while acting the part of fancy outerwear with the smock being the underwear. Or is this another garment that I'm thinking of? Maybe I got bad info off of a website at some point in time. Goodness knows I don't believe everything I read online is true. ;)

The Victorians didn't invent the corset. Neither did the Elizabethans. Throughout time - as far back as 2000bc, there have been garments used specifically to shape the torso into a particular shape according to the fashion of the day. The word 'corset' became popular in the 19th century. The modern archetype of the corsetted shape, is the hourglass which the Victorians made popular as it makes the waist appear small whilst enhancing the bust and hips. This is seen by many as the most beautiful (and most comfortable) incarnation of the corset and this is largely due to the ingenious engineering and innovation of the Victorians.

Yes. The one thing in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie that always makes me wince is the way corsets are treated as this crazy new invention that's soooo uncomfortable. Not only do I know that's wrong (because I like historical costuming), but we plainly *saw* Elizabeth as a child wearing 18th-century dress with stays in the bodice.

As the Handmade Corset Company, I - somewhat unsurprisingly - make quite a few corsets. And while many are for brides or burlesque gals to use as outerwear, a larger proportion than you might think are ordered as underwear by men. They're quite often basic & functional, too - certainly more so than most women's. Just thought I'd throw that in the mix.....

As others have said it's all down to the corset and also how it's styled. A cheap corset in nasty fabric which doesn't fit right so the wearer is spilling out of it has the potential to look, well, cheap. But a beautifully fitted corset in a gorgeous fabric is a different story. And how it's worn makes a huge difference.

Also, corsets don't have to look particularly like corsets. Where a corset ends and a boned bodice begins is a boundary easily blurred.

There is still a demand for underwear corsets though. You'd be surprised. Particularly for bridalwear.

I have nothing in particular against wearing corsets as outerwear, but I feel like they must go with something that makes them look special. Sparklewren mentioned that she loves them with jeans, and I'm sure if you were going somewhere special where it was dressy-casual, that might work. But I really like a corset with a lovely skirt, or with an undershirt as well. It does work, but I think more as a special event thing. I really like the idea of a fancy dress with corset lacing on the outside: it's a bit like having buttons all the way up the back of your dress :)

As underwear, I think it should be more acceptable to wear. Mention wearing a corset in general company and you get looks as if you're crazy. I don't think that the general idea of a corset is to shape your look for your clothes, as much as it is perceived as something to "bind" women into unhealthy shapes. We've re-educated ourselves out of wearing corsets: time for a little more re-educating again :)

Apologies to the other oldsters here, but I grew up in the 50s, and I love the corset as outerwear. The intense focus on shape, fabric and detail makes a beautiful garment.

I wore a girdle to high school (at 5'6", 115 lbs, sure didn't need it) and joyfully ditched the bra in the late 60s, early 70s. So, nay to misery, but yea to beauty. Fit the corset to the body, don't fit the body to the corset.

To make the corset work: Design and sew the corset no more than 1" smaller than any of your dimensions. Use fabulous fabrics and take advantage of the lacing as a design element. If you're really flat (bony) or too lush in the bosom, wear the corset on the outside of a great dress, shirt, or blouse to make the most of the look.

Thanks for the expose' on corsets. This has been a real eye opener. I can see how it could create a beautiful silouette with the right garment. And it seems like there would be no backfat rolls for larger women. Hmmm. This has real possibilities.

I think that one reason corsets are rarely worn as underwear nowadays is because originally women's clothes were custom made to fit their corseted measurements by a dressmaker. Unless you make your own clothes you are not going to find a RTW dress with the a standard bust/hip for your size with the waist proportionately smaller to allow for your corset-induced reduction. Those who still wear corsets as underwear tend to be devoted 'tightlacers'. I once saw in the West End of London a fabulously dressed 'lady of a certain age' with the tiniest waist you ever saw, on her way to the theatre with her husband...flawless!

I think corsets are both outerwear and underwear, but it all depends on the fabric being used as the outer shell. more delicate corsets I see as underwear, but the extravagant and bold designs are more what I see as outerwear. I bought a purple long line corset and a shorter union jack one a few weeks back, and I see them as outerwear, because I feel like they would be too hot to wear under anything else, with the exception of a jacket or sweater in the cooler months. Although I generally wear my corsets with skirts to try to make a dress type look out of them (usually something ruffled/slightly poofy)

You know what's weird? I've never worn corsets as outer wear, I usually think it looks sorta tacky but I JUST bought a corset as underwear. I haven't gotten it yet but I'm excited to be forced into good posture, lol. It's a pretty plain white bridal corset and I think it'll look nice under a lot of clothes I own. Fingers crossed!

I just found you! I pre-ordered your book yesterday and can't wait. I have decided that, with more and more vintage inspiration creeping into my wardrobe, and an hourglass figure that only a steel boned corset could contain, I need to learn to sew my own garments. I unfortunately haven't been blessed with sylph-like legs, or a great degree of patience. But in the words of the legendary Tim Gunn, I will make it work! Thanks for the inspiration! XXX

From my friend Pat: Where do the cinch belts I wore in the 50's fit in this discussion" They were accessories and worn to accent your waist of your dress or your skirt. They did cinch in your waist and were made of stretchy materials. They were two to four inches wide. I loved mine and thought they made my waist look small. I don't know where they are now. Gone along with my panty girdle, seamed hose, long line bra and hat/gloves worn to complete your outfit. Great topic Gertie!

From a historical reenactor's perspective - seconding somebody above - the original "stiffened bodies" which was started in the 16th century (possibly using hemp cord even before whalebone) could be either outer garment (over the shirt, as both jacket/waistcoat and support garment) or undergarment (over shirt, as support, but also UNDER jacket/waistcoat/gown) - the number of layers tended to have to do with how hard you were working, i.e. socioeconomically determined.I've worn well-fitted 16th-century bodies, and they are NOT torture at all - I've told several women at RenFaire who asked, that they were at least as comfortable as either my underwire or my jogbra! (Excellent support, and no bouncing. And real tight-lacing didn't happen until two-part metal grommets began to be incorporated, in the late 18th or early 19th century - hand-worked eyelets will only take so much.) I'm 50, and I haven't gone braless since I hit puberty; I like dressing modestly and I do not find breast-bounce at all comfortable. (If your bra isn't comfortable, that's because it doesn't fit.) I think the saloon-girl-corset with jeans is usually a pretty tacky look. Victorian corset as outer garment in a Steampunk costume is fine (as long as it fits and covers some necessary minimum) - that whole genre is meant to be both edgy and tongue-in-cheek./End Rant.

Oh - second rant. A modern saloon-girl or lingerie corset is designed along Victorian lines, to give you a 19th-century-fashionable shape. A 16th through 18th-century bodies, bodice, or (18th cent) corset is designed to lift *and flatten* the bosom - it gives a completely different silhouette. They are not interchangeable, if you're interested in historical accuracy.I'm not sure if the corset styles resulted in a different posture - I haven't done enough comparison of the two styles on the same person (which would be me) to tell for sure - but the artwork of the two periods leads me to wonder . . . 16th century through, maybe, the French Revolution, many women are pictured square-shouldered with their heads up (like a Gibson Girl!), but during especially the middle half of the 19th century the shoulders are more sloped, the neck tips forward, the whole attitude is more meek (like the difference in posture noted in your New Look post last week). What I can tell you is that in my 16th-century bodies and gown, I get compliments on my posture./End costume-history-professor rant.

My knee-jerk feminist reaction would be that corsets as outer wear are a statement of power and corsets as underwear are an attempt to change the body to be more in line with an arbitrary standard of beauty...but, that could just be me.

Personally for me I have only ever worn my corsets as underwear. Not only am I a conservative dresser but I am gifted in the bosom area and always feel like I am a streetwalker if I wear it on the outside. I love my corsets as underwear, I feel like they are a hug that I need during the day. Also several years ago I trained my waist and it was painful to start and painful to stop, even to this day it feels not quite right without some form of compression undergarment. I could take my waist down from a 30in to 22in, but I was part of the goth scene and it looked cool to have my corset on underneath and then a really fitted dress with a wide belt (I had a belt that had a huge crystal spider with its legs wrapping around my waist). I had delusions of Matrix stylish gothic grandeur, specifically of Monica Bellucci in her latex dress in the second movie. I don’t wear corsets anymore, I just don’t have time in the morning to get all laced in (and honestly my husband wouldn’t want to tighten me up to the level that I had liked, he would be afraid of hurting me), but everyday even on weekends I wear my spanx and get that little hug that makes me feel right.

And while others have mentioned The Dreamstress's article on the differences between various corset-like garments, I'll add her recent article on fitting corsets:http://thedreamstress.com/2012/08/what-size-should-your-corset-be-and-how-tightly-should-you-lace-it/Seeing as others have already touched the issue.

Very interesting debate you started up here, Gerthie!For me, corsets are to be worn outside, for several reasons. To begin with, they make no sense any more since the invention of plastic fibers and stretch fabrics. Spanx girdles make the job far better for the obvious reasons. Now, I've heard they are addicitive, so I am keeping away from those. I still remember my mum in those every day, even in summer. Somehow, we have get rid of those, and become used to less perfectly shaped sillouettes, and I want to keep that way.Now, to wear a corset outside is another matter. I find them beautiful and extreme, bizarre looking. I can imagine lots of different outfits to wear them. As I commented on my blog, I once tried one on, and it was really an experience. And some day, before I am too old, I will endevour the adventure of making myself one. There, Gerthie, it is been very inspiring and interesting to follow you doing one and researching about it.

I wore an underbust corset as outerwear as part of my wedding outfit earlier this year, and wore it again several times after the wedding, so I guess I'm a "corset as outerwear" kind of girl. I love the look of the item, and think ornamented corsets can make really nice outer garments. But maybe I've been influenced from my youth by some types of fantasy/games illustrations (of course now that I'm looking for it I can't find any example). I know it's something that seems quite natural to me, but something I associated with out of the ordinary outfits/styles rather than with a pair of jeans for example. And I feel some corsets look too much like lingerie items to be worn outside. I know that people who wear historical clothing wear corsets underneath to get the proper silhouette. I think most of the others don't really feel the need to wear a corset as underwear, people who want to look thinner will probably look for more comfortable and easy to find items. Plus there is quite a strong image associated with corsets. When I told my colleagues about my wedding outfit some of them instantly asked if it wasn't painful, if I wasn't afraid to faint or associated it with fetish. Girdles don't generate that kind of reactions I guess.What I don't like so much about corsets as innergarments is that, since it reduces the waist, you have to make special dresses for them that you won't be able to wear without them. I like to be able to make the most out of my clothes. As another commenter pointed out, that may also be one reason why less people wear them, as most of us don't make or order custom-made clothes.Sorry for the long comment... You brought up a very interesting point.

I think that they are trashy as outerwear, because of their lingerie-status.I think they should be worn only as a foundation garment. Someone on here mentioned Spanx... they can take an inch off of your waist max. A corset can be laced to take several inches off of your waist. Spanx can not alter the body's natural shape into vintage silhouettes. You need stiff fabric and boning.I'm not hating on Spanx. I wear them every day that I leave the house to go somewhere other than walmart.

I'm going to make my own corset some day, I just need to improve my sewing skills a lot.