What lessons are the "true Christians" learning when God lets them bully others and take what they want? God himself has commanded such actions,why would it bother God?

Then of course Jesus comes along and preached an entirely different message than that of his "father" to love one another instead of killing all who oppose or defile God or those who oppose his rule. Good thing this crazy fuck aint real

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Here would be my SPAG god (if one existed), and it wouldn't have anything to do with the bible. It would create a world where people could easily enough support their basic needs so that we could pursue becoming our greatest, wisest selves. It would encourage learning, growth, love, kindness. It would want us to grow and wouldn't put endless obstacles in the way of so many people that their lives are spent in misery. Instead of petty threats of hell, it would teach through positive reinforcement.

When one looks at what the world might actually look like with a loving creator, the biblical god stands out as a petty, immature, egotistical monster.

So, Sceptic, how does your god concept achieve the positive results that my imaginary one would? And how can you believe its perfect, if a lowly human can come up with a much better, fairer world, where one's place of birth doesn't play such an enormous part in whether you survive or thrive?

"God works in mysterious ways" is not an answer.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 05:07:48 PM by Traveler »

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If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Here would be my SPAG god (if one existed), and it wouldn't have anything to do with the bible. It would create a world where people could easily enough support their basic needs so that we could pursue becoming our greatest, wisest selves. It would encourage learning, growth, love, kindness. It would want us to grow and wouldn't put endless obstacles in the way of so many people that their lives are spent in misery. Instead of petty threats of hell, it would teach through positive reinforcement.

Hi Traveler, I have some questions about this:

* Are you talking about the creation of humans as we know them today?

* If yes to above, does your God grant free will?

* If yes to above, what would your God do in response to human decisions and actions that cause suffering?

You think an omnipotent God exists who has the power to end all world starvation immediately, right now, this very second and yet somehow it's our job? What a cop-out. There clearly is no all-loving all-powerful deity. Your God is imaginary fiction (yes, like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy for children).

Let me illustrate how silly that sounds:

You think billionaire Bill Gates exists who has the power to end all work for his children and make life a party 24/7 for them, and yet somehow they have to earn their own money? What a cop-out. There clearly is no billionaire Bill Gates. Your Gates is imaginary fiction.

The silliness is all yours. Listen to yourself. Are you actually attempting to compare Bill Gates (who is NOT infinite, all-loving; ie. IS love, all-powerful, all-knowing, and limitless) to your alleged deity thing? This is just more irrationality from you. False Comparison. And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

Please tell me what lesson anyone would learn if God kept feeding the Africans. "Hey we can keep stealing the diamonds and God is gonna keep feeding them! Wow! This God really spoils us! No discipline whatsoever! Such a pushover!"

What lesson would a person learn if they kept getting traffic tickets and their parents kept paying for it?

You seem to have this weird concept justification of continual parental absence. "Well gee, what lesson would anyone learn if their parents actually came home and disciplined them in their presence for all in the house to see!? Parents should just leave and not be around. Yeah, that's the ticket!"

Listen to yourself, turning every which way in an attempt to justify this alleged invisible "spirit" thing. Do you have kids? Why don't you just leave them to fend for themselves like you think this alleged 'God' does?

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

This is a red-herring fallacy. We aren't debating whether or not "I" exist. We are talking about the sheer and utter LACK of any phenomenal evidence that any alleged 'all-loving', 'all-powerful', deity is around doing anything to end world starvation (or any other world atrocity, such as decease, for that matter). If this 'thing' were real (and actually all-loving) it would rain down 'manna' from heaven (or whatever) and do what is truly loving for it's alleged 'children'. But...NOPE.

I'd be willing to bet that you would step right in and aid a starving child (or one being raped) if it was in your immediate presence, would't you? And allegedly this deity is omni-present. So it is continuously in the presence of these horrific atrocities all-the-time (which you or I would stop immediately) and yet it does nothing. That's the difference between you and your alleged deity. You would stop the rape. It stands back, watches, and does nothing.

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

No, we're not. But in the course of discussion you made a claim about something - that you would eliminate starvation if you were limitless. That's all you need to focus on in your response to me. Tall order for you, but I haven't abandoned hope you may one day do it.

We are talking about the sheer and utter LACK of any phenomenal evidence that any alleged 'all-loving', 'all-powerful', deity is around doing anything to end world starvation (or any other world atrocity, such as decease, for that matter).

Yep. And in the process of discussing it, you made a claim. I wanted you to provide further information on that claim.

And allegedly this deity is omni-present. So it is continuously in the presence of these horrific atrocities all-the-time (which you or I would stop immediately) and yet it does nothing. That's the difference between you and your alleged deity. You would stop the rape. It stands back, watches, and does nothing.

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

Pretty stupid statement,the wave of a hand would so it if we were God. Why do you people limit your God to terms that LIMIT his power?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I think i can safely say that if any person considered "moral" (ohh hell, is the moral shit storm going to come from this?) was also omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, they would most certainly help all of mankind, and likely any other sentient beings in the universe.

I ponder how theists believe their god is loving, when humans are repeatedly known for being even better.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

Pretty stupid statement,the wave of a hand would so it if we were God. Why do you people limit your God to terms that LIMIT his power?

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

If you bothered to read Medians posts,he does contribute what he can for the hungry....what as a Christian have you done?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

Pretty stupid statement,the wave of a hand would so it if we were God. Why do you people limit your God to terms that LIMIT his power?

Where did I mention God in my post?

The term was if you were limitless,and of course you know the answer IF YOU were limitless,I am sure you would help ALL....or do you not understand what limitless means?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I think i can safely say that if any person considered "moral" (ohh hell, is the moral shit storm going to come from this?) was also omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, they would most certainly help all of mankind, and likely any other sentient beings in the universe.

And I say, what evidence do you have for thinking this? The evidence actually goes against it. Moral people right now don't do everything within their means to help mankind. Why would that change if the ability to help increased?

And I say, what evidence do you have for thinking this? The evidence actually goes against it. Moral people right now don't do everything within their means to help mankind. Why would that change if the ability to help increased?

Again, omnipotence is FARRRRRRRRRRRRR more power than you can imagine.

Omnipotence is the level of power where there is no level, you could make an indefinite amount of whatever you want, in a nanosecond, in 0 seconds!

Hell, you could break the rules and go "I made everything in cabbage seconds", they don't exist, but you made them anyway.

I consider myself to be moral, and i would help everything (and i mean EVERYTHING, as it would still equate to no effort), if i were omnipotent.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

And if Bill Gates WERE limitless he would in fact end starvation immediately (as would I - and likely you).

How can you claim you would end starvation immediately if you were limitless? What do you mean by 'limitless'?

Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

If you bothered to read Medians posts,he does contribute what he can for the hungry....what as a Christian have you done?

My point is that noone of us contribute what we can for the hungry. We could all do more, often a lot more. I make this point only in response to the assertion by Median that he would eliminate starvation if he was limitless. I want to know why this is necessarily true, based on what we know about ourselves.

I think i can safely say that if any person considered "moral" (ohh hell, is the moral shit storm going to come from this?) was also omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, they would most certainly help all of mankind, and likely any other sentient beings in the universe.

And I say, what evidence do you have for thinking this? The evidence actually goes against it. Moral people right now don't do everything within their means to help mankind. Why would that change if the ability to help increased?

MM i think you hit the nail on the head,but can a person be called "moral" in these terms if they fail to help others to the full extent of their abilities?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Here would be my SPAG god (if one existed), and it wouldn't have anything to do with the bible. It would create a world where people could easily enough support their basic needs so that we could pursue becoming our greatest, wisest selves. It would encourage learning, growth, love, kindness. It would want us to grow and wouldn't put endless obstacles in the way of so many people that their lives are spent in misery. Instead of petty threats of hell, it would teach through positive reinforcement.

Hi Traveler, I have some questions about this:

* Are you talking about the creation of humans as we know them today?

* If yes to above, does your God grant free will?

* If yes to above, what would your God do in response to human decisions and actions that cause suffering?

I actually think these are some pretty good questions. They made me think a little. I'm not Traveler, but I'll take a stab at them.

I think, in the first case, that, yes, we would be talking about humans who, physically, are basically the same as we know them. There would probably be social differences depending on how much hands-on interference there was from God, and how it went over.

I would also see "free will" being part of the plan. Inusmuch as there actually IS free will. I'm not a particular proponent of the theory that every move we make is somehow programmed into us through every moment of life experience which came before it, and that's not a controversy I want to see here, so let's just leave it at, yes, god gives us the ability to make choices in this scenario.

The last is the most interesting...Because if human evolution as a social species (which I am assuming) were to remain pretty much as it appears to have been in THIS reality, I suppose God would have had to be a bit more hands-on pretty early in the game, making sure that it was clear that those who chose to live their lives peacefully, cooperatively, and in seeking knowledge and wisdom ended up faring better, karma-wise, than those who sought power over others. I don't see this as necessarily a violation of free-will, though it might be, to some extent. I would imagine that an omnipotent power could figure out a way to make it reasonably subtle. I could probably keep expounding on this until it became an incoherent mess, but it does seem to me that with a reasonably consistent system of reward/punishment for specific behaviors, god could grant free will, yet still end up with a society where peaceful, rational pursuits and a love of education would become the standard.

I think i can safely say that if any person considered "moral" (ohh hell, is the moral shit storm going to come from this?) was also omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, they would most certainly help all of mankind, and likely any other sentient beings in the universe.

And I say, what evidence do you have for thinking this? The evidence actually goes against it. Moral people right now don't do everything within their means to help mankind. Why would that change if the ability to help increased?

MM i think you hit the nail on the head,but can a person be called "moral" in these terms if they fail to help others to the full extent of their abilities?

MM is God limitless or not? If you were limitless you would end all world suffering,war,starvation in a heartbeat? It if the believer who limits the power of God IMO.

At the momemt, I am uninterested in whether God is limitless. I wanted only to pursue Median's assertion that HE would end starvation if he was limitless. So far, no sign of any argument from Median to back that assertion up or explain why he holds that assertion.

My point is that noone of us contribute what we can for the hungry. We could all do more, often a lot more. I make this point only in response to the assertion by Median that he would eliminate starvation if he was limitless. I want to know why this is necessarily true, based on what we know about ourselves.

"What we can" is quite relative and is also completely aside from the subject. I'm not going to quibble with you about what "all you can do" means b/c you don't get to define that for me. I do plenty now and will continue, and this says nothing about what I would do if I had unlimited capacity. We are discussing an alleged "all-loving" being who stands by and watches while horrific things happen to his 'children'. And yet these same 'children' help each other far more than this invisible 'thing' does (which is none). It doesn't matter to me whatever if you believe me or not that I would end starvation if I had the unlimited means/powers. The point is, this alleged deity DOES have the means (supposedly), and is supposedly "all loving", and still does nothing, which makes me (and you) better than 'him'.