Stand Your Ground and Self Defense Laws

Curiouser and curiouser. Per thier pattern jury instructions, Fl has a definition of depraved heart murder unlike any I've see.

Quote:

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

but thanks for acknowledging that Zimmerman was no longer chasing and has lost sight of Martin as the last recorded data point.

I will acknowledge that Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin. I think that's probably a given, considering Martin's girlfriend reported that he said that he had lost Zimmerman. Nowhere did I say that Zimmerman was no longer chasing Martin, nor do I think that he did stop chasing him. In fact, I think the evidence points towards Zimmerman continuing his pursuit (while not running), thus directly contradicting his claim that he was heading back to his truck, and he was attacked from behind by Martin. Consider:

Zimmerman didn't want to give his address, as he thought that Martin might be close enough to hear. This seems odd, if he had lost Martin and was heading back to his truck

When asked if he wanted to meet the cops at his first location (where he claimed he was going), he first agreed, and then changed his mind, asking for them to call him when they arrived. His truck would have been, at most, a minute's walk away, had he turned around when he said he lost Martin. That was THE reasonable and logical rendezvous location if that's where Zimmerman was heading. That he asked them to call instead betrays the idea that he was NOT heading back to his truck

The final confrontation location was most likely too far away from Zimmerman's truck for him to have started heading back to it, only to be jumped by Martin after he had hung up with the operator

Martin's girlfriend will testify that Martin thought that Zimmerman had found him again. NOT that Martin had gone looking for Zimmerman.

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It will be up to the prosecution to disprove it, and based on the initial affidavit, it does not look like they will.

You do realize that the affidavit is only a very brief summary of why they charged Zimmerman with what they did, right? It's downright silly to assume that the robustness of their case can be based off of what's written in the affidavit. I'm sure they'll plan on having expert witnesses who will lay out how Zimmerman's story of turning around to head back to his truck, only to be accosted from behind by Martin doesn't fit the evidence at hand. And they'll augment the statement from Martin's mother about how that's him screaming for help with voiceprint analysts claiming that it's him, not Zimmerman.

You and Dershowitz are free to scoff at the affidavit. But keep in mind, Dershowitz is an attention whore, who loves being on camera. That he's out there taking a contrarian stand on this is hardly compelling, beyond the fact that it's a great way for him to get more attention.

but thanks for acknowledging that Zimmerman was no longer chasing and has lost sight of Martin as the last recorded data point.

I will acknowledge that Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin. I think that's probably a given, considering Martin's girlfriend reported that he said that he had lost Zimmerman.

That cannot be concluded from only a conversation with Martin. All we know is that Martin said that he no longer saw Zimmerman. That does not mean that Zimmerman no longer saw Martin. However, from the recorded phone call, it sounds like Zimmerman had, in fact, also lost sight of Martin.

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[list][*]Zimmerman didn't want to give his address, as he thought that Martin might be close enough to hear. This seems odd, if he had lost Martin and was heading back to his truck[*]When asked if he wanted to meet the cops at his first location (where he claimed he was going), he first agreed, and then changed his mind, asking for them to call him when they arrived. His truck would have been, at most, a minute's walk away, had he turned around when he said he lost Martin. That was THE reasonable and logical rendezvous location if that's where Zimmerman was heading. That he asked them to call instead betrays the idea that he was NOT heading back to his truck

Yup. That alone makes it (to me) sound like he was going to continue looking/pursuit.

Zimmerman didn't want to give his address, as he thought that Martin might be close enough to hear.

This part has perplexed me for the last few weeks. Exactly what kind of cat and mouse game did Zimmerman think he was playing here, that he didn't want to voice his address? If the belief is that this person with whom you are playing The Most Dangerous Game is going to overhear you directly, i.e. is within earshot, doesn't that also mean your Street Address is sort of irrelevant, or redundant?

It just doesn't make any sense. Then again if memory serves, Zimmerman never said "I don't want to say it because he might hear", we are just sort of speculating as to why he elected not to give an address to the dispatcher at that point... right?

Zimmerman didn't want to give his address, as he thought that Martin might be close enough to hear.

This part has perplexed me for the last few weeks. Exactly what kind of cat and mouse game did Zimmerman think he was playing here, that he didn't want to voice his address? If the belief is that this person with whom you are playing The Most Dangerous Game is going to overhear you directly, i.e. is within earshot, doesn't that also mean your Street Address is sort of irrelevant, or redundant?

It just doesn't make any sense. Then again if memory serves, Zimmerman never said "I don't want to say it because he might hear", we are just sort of speculating as to why he elected not to give an address to the dispatcher at that point... right?

I dunno about Zimmerman, but I don't usually give my address out 'for free', either. I would imagine that such rationale wouldn't be about someone knowing your address and doing something right then, but someone knowing your address and paying your house a visit a day or two later (throwing eggs, toilet paper, otherwise vandalizing, or even robbing it).

Then again if memory serves, Zimmerman never said "I don't want to say it because he might hear", we are just sort of speculating as to why he elected not to give an address to the dispatcher at that point... right?

Nope, he comes right out and says that he doesn't want to give his address, as he's not sure where the other guy is:

Quote:

Zimmerman:

It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

The nice thing about that transcript is that it periodically puts in time stamps. Zimmerman was running for about 30 seconds (2:08 - 2:40ish), with at least 10 seconds of that time after the dispatcher said they didn't need for him to chase Martin. The call ends at 4:07 (that's the duration, not the actual time). So 30 seconds (max) of running, followed by almost 1 minute and 30 seconds worth of walking. It is virtually impossible that he broke off pursuit when the dispatcher told him to and started heading back to his truck. He would have gotten back to it by then, and NOT have had the confrontation with Martin several hundred feet away. So he DID continue his pursuit. For how long is a good question. I'm sure there are experts who can piece that together. IF he really did turn around at some point, it wouldn't have been more than a few seconds before the confrontation with Martin.

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That cannot be concluded from only a conversation with Martin. All we know is that Martin said that he no longer saw Zimmerman. That does not mean that Zimmerman no longer saw Martin. However, from the recorded phone call, it sounds like Zimmerman had, in fact, also lost sight of Martin.

Yup, that's entirely possible. But as you said, from the call it doesn't sound like Zimmerman maintained sight of Martin. That would have required him to have hatched a plot to create a false story while running after Martin. I'm just assuming he wasn't that devious. I certainly do think it's possible that he came up with the story of him getting jumped by Martin in between when he shot him, and when the cops arrived and took his statement. He certainly would have realized by then that having ignored the request for him to stop chasing would have harmed his chances at claiming self defense.

Yup, that's entirely possible. But as you said, from the call it doesn't sound like Zimmerman maintained sight of Martin. That would have required him to have hatched a plot to create a false story while running after Martin. I'm just assuming he wasn't that devious. I certainly do think it's possible that he came up with the story of him getting jumped by Martin in between when he shot him, and when the cops arrived and took his statement. He certainly would have realized by then that having ignored the request for him to stop chasing would have harmed his chances at claiming self defense.

I've always found it highly unlikely that Zimmerman's intent was to hunt down and murder Martin.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

This has been exactly my feeling as well.

Ya, that sounds about right to me as well.

I'll add that IF it's Martin pleading on the tape, it mean that Zimmerman probably didn't shoot from on bottom but was able to draw his gun and aim it longe enough for Martin to plead for his life.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

Since August 2011, Zimmerman has called in to a non-emergency police line seven times, according to documents released by the Sanford Police Department. Of those calls, five were made to report a “suspicious person.” In the audio released by Seminole County Sheriff’s Department, he describes the suspicious characters as black or African-American, though never mentioning race until after he was asked to describe the characters. These five calls all began similarly, with Zimmerman saying that he was calling as a result of past break-ins or robberies...

In another call he described two “suspicious” men that he said were loitering, adding that he had “never seen them before.” Another described a black male wearing a black leather jacket and hat with ear flaps. Zimmerman said that he had seen the man picking up trash and “didn’t know what his deal was.” In this call, Zimmerman adds that, “I don’t want to approach him personally.”

I'll add that IF it's Martin pleading on the tape, it mean that Zimmerman probably didn't shoot from on bottom but was able to draw his gun and aim it longe enough for Martin to plead for his life.

I've honestly not been sure what to make of the pleading, regardless of whose voice it was. Especially if they both perceived themselves to be the "victim" at the time.

dexvx wrote:

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

Though the charges were dropped he apparently was arrested at one point for getting in a physical altercation with a police officer. And he apparently tried to join the force himself, though that didn't pan out for him.

There seems to be quite a lot of history to suggest a "wannabe cop" vigilante type mentality on Zimmerman's part.

Even if he never chased down and initiated physical contact with a suspicious person before, it doesn't seem terribly unlikely that his frustration that night led to a change in his behavior. We already know that Zimmerman was chasing Martin at least during the 911 call, that much is not in doubt, so what exactly did he think he was going to do if he caught up with him?

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that.

Because, given the call history of THIS incident, it sounded like he was confrontational. Seriously, we have a pretty solid timeline that demonstrates with confidence well beyond your speculation.

Quote:

Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

Since August 2011, Zimmerman has called in to a non-emergency police line seven times, according to documents released by the Sanford Police Department. Of those calls, five were made to report a “suspicious person.” In the audio released by Seminole County Sheriff’s Department, he describes the suspicious characters as black or African-American, though never mentioning race until after he was asked to describe the characters. These five calls all began similarly, with Zimmerman saying that he was calling as a result of past break-ins or robberies...

In another call he described two “suspicious” men that he said were loitering, adding that he had “never seen them before.” Another described a black male wearing a black leather jacket and hat with ear flaps. Zimmerman said that he had seen the man picking up trash and “didn’t know what his deal was.” In this call, Zimmerman adds that, “I don’t want to approach him personally.”

Maybe he wasn't packing then. Certainly, approaching two black men would be a lot 'scarier' than approaching a tall, but thin black kid.

Given the wildly different scenarios, it seems ludicrous to offer this as counter evidence when we have the call records that demonstrate that he got out of the car, continued to pursue after told he didn't have to, and said something to the effect of "these assholes always get away".

I've always found it highly unlikely that Zimmerman's intend was to hunt down and murder Martin.

I agree. I think it's rather clear that Zimmerman thought that he was confronting a would-be burglar on drugs, and possibly armed. He might not have even attempted to restrain Martin, but was being so aggressive, that ironically, Martin felt threatened enough to defend himself, and was legally entitled to do so under the SYG law.

And given FL definition of 2nd degree murder, I think it reasonably fits:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and (certainly shooting someone in the chest is reasonably certain to do serious bodily injury)

2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and (the more difficult part to prove, but considering that Zimmerman clearly stated that he thought Martin looked like he was up to no good, and said stuff like "fucking punks" and "these assholes always get away", I don't think that it's too hard to convince a jury that he was going after Martin with ill will, even if he thought it was with good intentions for his fellow residents)

3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life. (I think if they can convince the jury that it was Martin screaming for help, this requirement is met. Zimmerman goes from guy who's fearing for his own life, to guy who kills someone begging for help. Seems a tad indifferent to me there.)

He assumed that Martin 1) was suspicious, 2) on drugs, 3) checking out all the houses, 4) Something is "wrong" with him, 5) he is part of the group of "assholes who always get away."

All this because he was an unknown black kid wearing a hoodie. Did he once call 911 to report a "suspicious" white person? Every single time he called, it was because he was "suspicious" about an unknown black person.

Maybe he wasn't packing then. Certainly, approaching two black men would be a lot 'scarier' than approaching a tall, but thin black kid.

Given the wildly different scenarios, it seems ludicrous to offer this as counter evidence when we have the call records that demonstrate that he got out of the car, continued to pursue after told he didn't have to, and said something to the effect of "these assholes always get away".

Did you misread? In the call he refused to approach ONE black person.

eXceLon wrote:

Though the charges were dropped he apparently was arrested at one point for getting in a physical altercation with a police officer. And he apparently tried to join the force himself, though that didn't pan out for him.

I believe the situation that transpired was that an undercover (plain clothes) officer was busting his bartender friend for selling to minors. Zimmerman intervened. It was originally a felony charge for assault on an officer. That was obviously dropped, but I believe there was a plea bargain for a lesser charge.

eXceLon wrote:

There seems to be quite a lot of history to suggest a "wannabe cop" vigilante type mentality on Zimmerman's part.

Even if he never chased down and initiated physical contact with a suspicious person before, it doesn't seem terribly unlikely that his frustration that night changed that. We already know that Zimmerman was chasing Martin at least during the 911 call, that much is not in doubt, so what exactly did he think he was going to do if he caught up with him?

Where is this "lot of history" or vigilante mentality? All his prior dispatcher calls were described as calm and informative. We don't know what Zimmerman or Martin was going to do in a confrontation, but the end result is there.

I've always found it highly unlikely that Zimmerman's intend was to hunt down and murder Martin.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

Ditto. This seems like the most logical, Occam's razor theory as to what happened. I think in Zimmerman's "wannabe cop" mentality, he was caught up in the moment of what he thought was a do-gooder attempt to stop a crime, without having thought through the possibility that this is just an innocent kid walking down the street. I don't think his intent from the beginning was to shoot him, but he also didn't thoroughly weigh the consequences of carrying a firearm and forcing a confrontation. Though this may not be a case of blatant klansman style racism, it's pretty apparent he profiled the kid and confronted him with the assumption that he was in the act of committing a crime.

Honestly, I think he's screwed, but my guess is that he isn't some sort of deranged criminal, just a guy that made a poor choice in the heat of the moment, influenced by some bad character traits or personality disorder, and will live to regret it for the rest of his life.

This is possibly why we get all of these people from his family coming out and defending his character. It's very possible that George Zimmerman is a straight shooter (no pun intended), with apparent good moral character, but with a much too active desire right wrongs, clean up crime, etc. Just conjecture, obviously.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand your logic here. We have Zimmerman on tape admitting that he's chasing Martin, and muttering that "these assholes always get away." Yet you seemingly want us to ignore this undeniable fact in favor of looking at his past actions to conclude that he WASN'T being confrontational that evening. Just what the hell do you THINK Zimmerman was going to do if he caught up to Martin?

My god, the lengths you are going to, and the logical torture you're engaging in, in order to excuse Zimmerman's behavior is breathtaking.

Every single time he called, it was because he was "suspicious" about an unknown black person.

You have this documented?

From above:

Quote:

Since August 2011, Zimmerman has called in to a non-emergency police line seven times, according to documents released by the Sanford Police Department. Of those calls, five were made to report a “suspicious person.” In the audio released by Seminole County Sheriff’s Department, he describes the suspicious characters as black or African-American, though never mentioning race until after he was asked to describe the characters. These five calls all began similarly, with Zimmerman saying that he was calling as a result of past break-ins or robberies...

In another call he described two “suspicious” men that he said were loitering, adding that he had “never seen them before.” Another described a black male wearing a black leather jacket and hat with ear flaps. Zimmerman said that he had seen the man picking up trash and “didn’t know what his deal was.” In this call, Zimmerman adds that, “I don’t want to approach him personally.”

So it's possible that the 2 men he thought were loitering were not black. But according to those tapes, 6 of the 7 times he called he was reporting a suspicious black person. The other two do don't have confirmation of but I'd be willing to bet I am right.

Maybe he wasn't packing then. Certainly, approaching two black men would be a lot 'scarier' than approaching a tall, but thin black kid.

Given the wildly different scenarios, it seems ludicrous to offer this as counter evidence when we have the call records that demonstrate that he got out of the car, continued to pursue after told he didn't have to, and said something to the effect of "these assholes always get away".

Did you misread? In the call he refused to approach ONE black person.

Yes, I can read quite well. That was one of the scenarios. The other was two black guys. Maybe the one black guy 'looked' scarier than Martin, maybe Z wasn't carrying his gun. Who knows why he chose not to physically confront in those situations. Maybe he was angrier this time around.

The point is, the actual evidence that we have regarding this situation is obviously more relevant than speculating why he did or didn't do something in past encounters that had completely different, and unknown, initial conditions than the one we're talking about.

Every single time he called, it was because he was "suspicious" about an unknown black person.

You have this documented?

This was discussed earlier in the thread. Z may not have been overly racist, but he was intent enough upon 'suspicious black people' that one of the black people that lived in the community commented he didn't feel safe walking around outside because he might get harassed by this guy.

Where is this "lot of history" or vigilante mentality? All his prior dispatcher calls were described as calm and informative. We don't know what Zimmerman or Martin was going to do in a confrontation, but the end result is there.

He was a habitual, and some might argue abusive, caller to 911. Many of his calls were for non-issues, suggesting paranoia. He was clearly outraged by what he saw as the injustice in the world (or at least his neighborhood), what with the "these assholes always get away" comment.

This wasn't the first time that he accused an innocent black kid of committing a crime with no evidence, he showed up with the police at one point to a neighbors house to accuse their son of wrongdoing.

Combine that with other aspects of his history, and a pretty clear profile starts coming together.

Every single time he called, it was because he was "suspicious" about an unknown black person.

You have this documented?

This was discussed earlier in the thread. Z may not have been overly racist, but he was intent enough upon 'suspicious black people' that one of the black people that lived in the community commented he didn't feel safe walking around outside because he might get harassed by this guy.

To be accurate, by all account he seem to call the non emergency line each time.

5 times he called about "suspisious" persons who just happened to be black

1 time he called about 2 people of unknown race.

1 time he called about a man picking up trash who just happened to be black.

Without the actual tapes of the middle incident we won't know if he mentioned their race. But he sure seems to have a habit of being suspisious of unknown people who happen to be black.

Once again, knowing nothing about martin other than he was black, young, and wearing a hoodie Zimmerman made the following assumptions

He assumed that Martin 1) was suspicious, 2) on drugs, 3) checking out all the houses, 4) Something is "wrong" with him, 5) he is part of the group of "assholes who always get away."

That is all documented by the tapes. All those from nothing more than looking at him across the street. That should tell us all we need to know about his character.

Does that mean he intended to salk and murder him? No, I don't think he did. I think he tried to follow Martn and at some point they came in contact. There seemed to be some kind of fight and Martin ended up dead.

Zimmerman's defenders spend all this time trying to invent stories in his defense. What we know from Zimmerman's calls is that Martin saw him, and started to walk away quickly. Zimmerman confirms this. Assuming the girlfriend is telling the truth, Martin was scared of Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's story is that Martin ran away, hid, and then "jumped" him when he was innocently returning to his truck. Based on what we know about the midset of the two men at the time, this doesn't make sense.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I love how you cherry-pick his history, and avoid any mention of his violent altercation with police officers.

To be accurate, by all account he seem to call the non emergency line each time.

To be honest I don't quite get the distinction, but it seems to be different everywhere you go.

In my area there really is no "non-emergency line", and if you try calling the local police station there is a good chance that no one will be there to answer the phone. The county 911 system isn't generally so overwhelmed that they mind you bothering them for lower-priority calls. I've called before for some loose dogs running on a busy roadway, that I thought constituted a dangerous situation, I just stated up front that it was a "non-emergency" and they told me to go ahead.

In the City of Pittsburgh proper they do have a 311 "Non-Emergency" line, but it's for reporting potholes and broken streetlights and generally serves as a sort of help-desk/touch-point for city government services. If you require a police response, even for a relatively low-priority call, in most cases you'd still dial 911. Though there is a better chance of getting an answer if you call the local station directly, unlike with my small-town police department.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I love how you cherry-pick his history, and avoid any mention of his violent altercation with police officers.

To be accurate, by all account he seem to call the non emergency line each time.

To be honest I don't quite get the distinction, but it seems to be different everywhere you go.

In my area there really is no "non-emergency line", and if you try calling the local police station there is a good chance that no one will be there to answer the phone. The county 911 system isn't generally so overwhelmed that they mind you bothering them for lower-priority calls.

In the City of Pittsburgh proper they do have a 311 "Non-Emergency" line, but it's for reporting potholes and broken streetlights and generally serves as a sort of help-desk/touch-point for city government services. If you want a police response, even for a relatively low-priority call, you still dial 911. You'd most definitely call 911 for a "suspicious person" call here.

In many cities, including mine and by all accounst in florida there is a non 911 police number. It is for non emergency calls to the police. Sometimes, the line is picked up by 911 operators if they are not swamped.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I love how you cherry-pick his history, and avoid any mention of his violent altercation with police officers.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I love how you cherry-pick his history, and avoid any mention of his violent altercation with police officers.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I love how you cherry-pick his history, and avoid any mention of his violent altercation with police officers.

I think it's most plausible that he continued searching the area after hanging up with the emergency dispatcher, and that at some point Zimmerman spotted Martin and chased him down and initiated a confrontation. Martin probably tried to avoid him, and my bet is that Zimmerman then attempted to physically stop/restrain Martin.

In his "wannabe cop" mentality it probably didn't even occur to him that he could be perceived as the aggressor, so when Martin justifiably fought-back he got scared and shot him.

I'm not sure why most people speculate that. Given Zimmerman's past call history, he was not confrontational. While it doesn't eschew the possibility that Zimmerman initiated contact, prior history would suggest otherwise.

I love how you cherry-pick his history, and avoid any mention of his violent altercation with police officers.

Are you seriously suggesting that I am cherry picking data? Perhaps you should read and comprehend my post from above:

dexvx wrote:

eXceLon wrote:

Though the charges were dropped he apparently was arrested at one point for getting in a physical altercation with a police officer. And he apparently tried to join the force himself, though that didn't pan out for him.

I believe the situation that transpired was that an undercover (plain clothes) officer was busting his bartender friend for selling to minors. Zimmerman intervened. It was originally a felony charge for assault on an officer. That was obviously dropped, but I believe there was a plea bargain for a lesser charge.

I am not the one cherry picking data. You are the one that has consistently been twisting my words to fit your own agenda.

If their town is anything like mine, calling 911 is for real emergencies and for reporting crimes in progress. The non emergency number is for things like I report in my neighborhood, like aggressive panhandlers, or very loud music from the apartment building across the street. If he used the emergency number too many times, he would be arrested himself for abusing it.

And he was arrested for getting into a physical confrontation with a cop. He also had a history of snapping under confrontation when he worked security, and he had a restraining order put on him for a domestic violence complaint, and there was another incident in which he allegedly tailgated a car and got into an altercation with the driver when he thought the guy spit gum at him. Zimmerman has a clear record as a hothead, and an official record to show for it.

Sounds like prong horn antelope hunting to me. You could substitute in "bear" for "prong horn antelope" and add a line about the bear attacking and it would still sound like hunting.

First you have to modify your #1 to be this:1. Grab your gun and get in your truck with the intent to hunt and kill a pronghorn if you can find a suitable one.

I don't think Zimmerman actually went out with the intent to find and then actually kill someone in his neighborhood. I don't doubt that Zimmerman is always 'vigilant' about noticing things around his neighborhood (proof of this is all the previous calls to the police/911). It's the killing part that I don't think he specifically intended.

I think it was more like this:1. Go to the store.2. Drive from store back home.3. Spot someone he thinks is "suspicious" while entering his neighborhood.4. Go into cop-wannabe mode and 'tail' suspect.5. Some sort of escalation.6. Panic.7. Shoots "suspicious suspect".

I put "suspicious" in quotes to note that I'm not suggesting what process (real, imagined, or crazy) he goes through to arrive at his conclusion where he thinks Martin may be suspicious is valid or not.

Though the charges were dropped he apparently was arrested at one point for getting in a physical altercation with a police officer. And he apparently tried to join the force himself, though that didn't pan out for him.

I believe the situation that transpired was that an undercover (plain clothes) officer was busting his bartender friend for selling to minors. Zimmerman intervened. It was originally a felony charge for assault on an officer. That was obviously dropped, but I believe there was a plea bargain for a lesser charge.

Do you not notice a discrepancy between what you claim I am doing and what I have actually done?