Thursday, August 7, 2008

Responding To a Comment

Today I received a comment from Manda who was kind enough to offer her advice in running this blog. I did not post her comment immediately because I wanted to have a chance to read it and write a response. Following is her comment:

Manda has left a new comment on your post "Not Sure What To Do Here Folks!":I Guess We Have Nothing Better To Do, I have to ask: Do you get it now? Do you understand why GWoP may be selective about comment moderation? The comments showing up in your queue and making it to the posts are exactly why GWoP moderates so heavily. Search through their comments and find one instance of this type of poster bashing. You may find "I disagree", "I strongly disagree", even an "I hate to tell you but..." or “Are you serious?” but you will not find this type of childish nonsense in the comments. What part of this is at all about Jon and Kate and their show and the issues on the show? I see nothing but hateful attacks of other posters and websites. For instance, the “All Aboard” post, you get very little commentary on the show, but for the most part it’s people talking about GWoP comments and posts and ripping them to shreds! Did you want to start a blog to talk about the positives of the show, or was it just a guise for people to be able to come here and bash GWoP posters and others who do not agree with Jon and Kate's show? GWoP is not about attacking another posters views, and you know, I honestly believe that is what you attempted here also. But it's like a snowball effect; you let one in and before you know it every post disintegrates into why the poster is such a horrid person, horrid parent, the state of that poster's marriage, or challenging how another poster would handle a certain situation since most certainly they "don't have 8 KIDS!!! 8 KIDS, people!!!".GWoP started out not allowing any comments that even hint at veering off into that direction, even if it contained otherwise relevant commentary, and they have stayed true to that commitment. There are a number of things taken into consideration when moderating comments, as you evidently are starting to realize. GWoP has NO PROBLEM publishing comments that defend Jon and Kate as long as they are well constructed, mature and not taking the opportunity to be rude and condescending to another poster for their views. That means posts that name a specific blog editor, call out a specific commenter or addressing "You people...", as in "You people who sit around and think about this all day are crazy. Why can't you do something better with your time?" are not allowed. Also, a comment that would come to GWoP and say, for instance, “Did you see what those loons over at ___(fill in blank with any random Gosselin support site)_____ said? I’ll bet that site ___(fill in the blank with any random bash session about other site)_____.” It’s irrelevant to GWoP’s purpose, unprofessional, immature and it is simply not going to be tolerated. Again, find one place where GWoP has allowed such bashing of an entire website, even if it disagrees with their POV, much less an individual poster. GWoP is above that, and quite simply put, defend Jon and Kate all you want and sing their praises as much as you can, but when you scrape the bottom of that barrel and have no where else to go, GWoP will not allow you to personally attack the administrators, moderators, or the audience, on either side. Sorry if that offends. Believe it or not, comments attacking the fans and followers of J&K have been and are denied just as quickly as the ones who attack the "racists/stalkers/hypocrites/sanctimonious gasbags/haters", as people here so eloquently categorize those who are critical of Jon and Kate. On the other hand, you also won't find a ton of 'high 5's' and "ITA" posts that add nothing substantial to the discussion. The people whose posts make it through on GWoP have taken their time to carefully construct their posts or comments and don’t deserve to be subjected to that type of juvenile behavior. And, honestly? It's boring.So, good luck with your site here, I Guess We Have Nothing Better To Do. I am only speaking for myself, but I wish you nothing but success. It just seems you are in the process of learning a very valuable lesson that maybe GWoP already knew going into their venture. To run a successful blog takes heavy, levelheaded moderation and it can't be a free-for-all situation. It is YOUR blog. Take control of it. Set a standard as the rule maker and stand by it. If it ticks off people from either side who only want to hurl insults at other posters for their views and run it into the ground as a hate-filled site, then eventually the riff-raff will find another corner to hang out on and that’s just quicker you guys can get down to business maturely discussing the positives of the show you seemed to initially want to highlight.If GWoP had not taken that approach it would have self-destructed within 2 weeks.Did you want to start a pro-Gosselin site or anti-GWoP site? By virtue of the fact you seemingly mirrored this site off Gosselins Without Pity, i.e., Gosselins Don’t Need Our Pity, right down to the email you created parodying the administrators own, “ninabell”, in deference to your audience, I can almost see where they may think it could be a forum where anything goes in bashing GWoP, and if that was your intention, then lie in the bed you made for yourself with it. Otherwise, it may be a little too late to change course and suddenly try to make it something it never really could be in the first place, a happy Utopian Gosselin Is Love Land where everyone sits around playing Duck-Duck-Goose, lamenting over laundry and sharing organic recipes with one another.

Following is my response:Dearest Manda,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful letter and your desire to educate me as well as put me in my place. It is very much appreciated and maybe we could have coffee sometime because I can tell we would quickly become great friends. I originally thought that you were a representative of GWoP but we cleared that up today when you responded with – “I am not one of the administrators of the blog. I have on occasion submitted recaps and comments (and comments that have been REJECTED, thank you very much). I do know a couple of the editors and administrators there and they saw my comment I sent to you before I submitted it to you and by the feedback I received were in full support of it.”

Let’s discuss some issues you brought up. Do I get what now? Do I get the fact that GWoP moderates and rejects most posts that are positive about the Jon and Kate plus 8 show ? Until recently, they were very hard to find. Can I find instances of poster bashing? Probably not and I am surely not going to take the time to look. However there have been hundreds of posts of Jon and Kate bashing and many far worse than what you see here. Could you tell me what the difference is? What gives you the right to dissect, pick apart and attempt to destroy every aspect of their life as you do so well. A human being is a human being and we all deserve respect.

I respectfully disagree with your take on GWoP when you say they “have no problem publishing comments that defend Jon and Kate as long as they are well constructed, mature and not taking the opportunity to be rude and condescending to another poster for their views.” To be honest with you, that is one of quite a few reasons why I started this blog. Because I could not get one comment posted unless I agreed with them. And at times I do. Every single one of my comments that were in agreement with GWoP was posted. Every single one. Not one of my comments with a different point of view made it. Are my comments only constructive, mature and respectful when I have the same opinion?

Maybe one of the problems with the inconsistency with posting comments on that site is having quite a few moderators. One of the moderators who has visited here lately has said herself on this very site, “We do have several mods and we each see things our own way. What one of us can see as fine and inoffensive, others can see another way. I'm tough on profanity and others don't even blink at it. That's just being different people.” So I wonder how much they really have this down to exact science as you say. However, I really do appreciate all of your suggestions on moderating and will definitely take them into consideration since you have so much experience in that area. Oh, that’s right, you are not one of the administrators there (but it sure seems like you would jump at the chance to be one.) I also would like to note that I have a lot of respect for the moderator that I quoted. She is a good example of the fair and balanced discussion that I look forward to having here.

I am not a Jon and Kate defender or lover. If you have read any of my posts you will see that I just really enjoy the show. Many of the other people who hang around here are not pro or anti- Gosselin. They also just enjoy the show. This blog is for entertainment purposes only. We have no goal or mission statement other than to have an opportunity to discuss openly and intelligently the show and the ISSUES surrounding the show. People from GWoP somehow have the impression that this blog was started to just discuss what happens in each episode. Sorry, you do not tell us what we discuss or blog about. Yes, we might discuss GWoP because that would come under "issues surrounding the show." And at times we intend to have some fun. You will see that in my polls. Sometimes that might be at the expense of GWoP but it will never be at the expense of the Gosselin family.

You are right, it is my blog. BUT this is not my life. If it self –destructs in 2 weeks, so be it. Life goes on. Also, this is not a pro-Gosselin site. This site was NEVER intended to be a happy “ Utopian Gosselin Is Love Land” whatever the hell you said. But heaven forbid if we have some fun over here. Heaven forbid if I try to post some family pet pictures or some good books I read. We have a war and an economy to worry about. Do we really need to take on the Gosselin family?

I would also like it not to be an anti-GWoP site but I would like to have fair discussions with people from that site that have different opinions than mine. I think it is called open mindedness. That was another reason I started this site. To have a balanced discussion. I don’t believe that happens there. I am willing to post articles with views from both sides. I am not sure they are.

Finally, Manda my dear, Nina Bell was my grandmother’s name and also the name of my 1958 Buick Century. The reason I bought the car was because my grandparents use to have one and would let me drive it. I use Nina Bell as a user name quite often in my life because it brings back memories that are dear to me. Honestly, I didn’t even see Serena’s e-mail address. She just posts as serena. But even if I had, I would have still used Nina Bell. And the name of the website – this is America isn’t it?

As a side note a poster left this comment for Sharla-

"Since you're here, would you address the moderating policy over at GWoP? It seems to have been the experience of a number of posters here that they had perfectly civil posts rejected, presumably for being insufficiently anti-Gosselin."

And Manda responded with this:

I'm not Sharla, but I posted a very succint explanation to this today that would have cleared up much of this confusion but your admin here chose not to publish it.August 7, 2008 6:48 PM

75 comments:

Linda
said...

Manda,

Can you explain to me why poster bashing is not permitted, but tup bashing, twin bashing, and parent bashing is not just permitted but encouraged on GwoP?

Does it not seem odd to you that a blog that announces it's mission is to advocate "for the children" permits posts and comments that degrade them or their parents? (at least used to ... maybe sharla is cleaning that up.)

I post here about GwoP because very few of my comments on GwoP were ever posted. I like giving my opinions about the things that I disagree with on the GwoP site.

Well, so much for that, huh? First of all, I did not construct my post in this nasty, condescending tone that you replied to me in. Maybe therein lies the problem with you getting comments thru at GWOP right there, my dear. But if it helps you understand things a little more clearly, I’ll do my best to get down on your level to communicate with you.

Am I mistaken, or did you not say: “I am sure that this is not what I want. People sniping back and forth.”? Yet, here it is, just that from you, in all it’s glory. When I said “Do you get it?” it was in response to what I perceived as your frustration with the tone expressed in your comments sections and how it seemed to overwhelm you in your post soliciting advice on how to handle your blog. Yet now, you admit you are willing to do things at the expense of GWoP and still I ask, what does that have to do with your stated mission “THE INTENTION OF THIS BLOG IS TO BRING SOME BALANCE TO THE DISCUSSION OF THE SHOW "JON AND KATE PLUS EIGHT. Aren’t you glad GWoP doesn’t stoop to that level, to go after blogs just because they have a dissenting view? Or could it be you really, really wish they would so you could actually get some real traffic over in this shithole?

Silly me, huh? Willing to give you the benefit of the doubt because in your posts asking for guidance, you seemed at a loss with the way things were going in your comments section. But apparently, you don’t care if your site disintegrates into the mosh-pit that is “Can’t really think of anything positive to say about the Gosselins so I’ll just attack that poster who doesn’t like them.” Sugar, that’s been done and is so last season.

I have no doubts the editors and moderators at GWOP do an excellent job. As I said, you certainly don’t see this type of juvenile crap over there. I never said I had experience in that area, but I do know them. I know how hard they work at controlling the freaks like all your sycophants here and let me tell you, they are so far out of your league to compete with them that you don’t even see what a fool you are making of yourself here. I would never even attempt to take on their tasks because they do have to deal with the bottom feeders you have floating around your pool on a daily basis and as Sharla has proved, she is much better at it than I, obviously.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Ninabell, although I have to admit, I don’t give a rats ass about your grandma or the car she drove. My question “Did you want to start a blog to talk about the positives of the show, or was it just a guise for people to be able to come here and bash GWoP posters and others who do not agree with Jon and Kate's show?” has certainly been answered for all to see. I knew your answer would do one of two things: be taken for what it was, simple advice about controlling comments you admit you can’t handle, or be turned around and used to personally attack me. Thank you for helping me prove the point I set out to prove.

You just don't get it. This is just a blog. This is not real life. There is no mission over here. Your right, I asked for suggestions from the people that post here. Not a lecture from someone who lurks here. Please read your post again. You think that the tone of that post is nice? You lecture me. You question the name I use for my e-mail address. You accuse me of intentionally trying to start GWoP bashing site. Read your last paragraph. It wasn't nasty or condescending? And again - you are dictating to me the direction of this blog- in your last comment. But no one from this site may comment about your site. You came here! Listen to the tone of the message you sent me today. I don't know what else to say.

Wow, Manda, you seem to know what "condescending" means, since you use the word several times, and yet you remain utterly unaware of how condescending your posts come off. "Do you get it now?" Really, really lacking in self-awareness.

GWoP has NO PROBLEM publishing comments that defend Jon and Kate as long as they are well constructed, mature and not taking the opportunity to be rude and condescending to another poster for their views.

This I simply do not believe to be true. You can say it, but I don't believe it. My experience, and the experience of others here, indicates that very few even faintly pro-Gosselin posts make it through the rigorous vetting process, no matter how they are written.

I don’t give a rats ass about your grandma

Well, aren't you the charmer!

Thank you for helping me prove the point I set out to prove.

You're only making the same point that most of the GWoPpers who've slithered over here have made. It's a point about themselves, and their own characters, but they just don't see it.

And another thing...say, worst case scenario - that the only intent of this blog was to bash and make fun of GWoP and its posters. So what? Even if that were the case, I would still feel far morally superior to people who actively try to ruin the lives of people they've never even met, who make snide remarks about the physical appearance of 4-year-olds, and who obsess over a freaking television show 24/7. There are some posters who've come over that I feel we can have a rational discussion with, but there are several who might as well just be ignored because they have nothing useful or valuable to say. The opinions (and the insults) of those posters mean absolutely nothing to me.

I did something wonky in my first try at replying (hit the wrong button!), so I'm submitting again; delete duplicate if it ever makes contact!

Manda said: Did you want to start a pro-Gosselin site or anti-GWoP site?

This is a telling statement to me, and I think it’s one of my problems with a lot of what’s on GWoP. Why does it have to be all one thing? Why do I have to either love or hate the Gosselins? Are those my only choices? Aren’t human reactions to other human beings entitled to a little bit more complexity? I actually give GWoP credit for attempting a little bit of balance a while back when they started a thread for posters to say something positive about the Gosselins. It went pretty well, until a number of posters couldn’t stand it any longer and destroyed it with sarcasm and ridicule.

My reactions to Kate Gosselin are a mixed bag. I think she loves her kids like crazy. I think she wears her phobias on her sleeve and lets them get in the way of everyone’s fun. I think she’s crazy in love with her husband, maybe a little insecure about their relationship, and I think she’s also pretty hard on him. Okay. Categorize me. Am I lover or a hater? Whatever answer I get, I’ll argue with, because I don’t want to be labeled, tyvm.

Sorry, forgot to say ‘Hi’, and thanks for this blog. (I’ve been lurking.) I personally think it can be anything you want. The thing about J & K is that the show is not the only thing that’s interesting about the whole Gosselin ‘thing’. The reactions to it, to Kate especially, and the internet buzzing is also a fascinating subject of observation (for me). My biggest problem with TWoP was not being able to discuss those interesting accompanying phenomena: (OFF TOPIC!)

Anyone who is offended on behalf of GWoP when it becomes the object of criticism should remember the oft-repeated advice that Kate and Jon and their ‘sheeple’ are given: If you put it out there, don’t be surprised when people have something to say about it. (I will also take that under advisement; I’m ready!)

You just don't get it, Ninabell. I was actually enjoying your site and had posted as anonymous prior to today and actually had respect for you in what I could see you were trying to do and felt sorry for you when you posted that you were losing control of your site and it was not what you intended it to be. I'll give you the last paragraph, but aside from that, you don't have any idea what tone I posted with because if you did, you would know I meant it to truly show you GWoP deals with the same issues, the very issues you question about them, and why you dont see this type of nastiness, yes the nastiness I am admittedly taking part in this very minute, in their comments.

I contemplated not including the last paragraph of my post for a while today because I knew it would be touchy, but there was no other way to point out that you could be having problems as a result of mirroring your site as opposed to GWoP and the tone it set for your blog to become one big bashfest against GWoP except to bluntly state it. But that's irrelevant right? Because you now admit that is perfectly acceptable. Fine, but don't expect to allow people to falsely accuse GWOP of horrendous things with no support whatsoever and not expect people from GWOP to show up and defend what they have worked their asses off to do; going out of their way, erring on the side of caution MANY MANY more times than you know just to keep any suggestion of that type of aggression and certainly unverifiable information about the Gosselins off the blog. It does not happen and you are remiss in allowing lies and unsubstantial rumors to be spread here like they have been in the last couple of days by certain members of your audience. That is no way to get respect from any one on any side of the fence if your intentions of offering a 'fair and balanced' forum are true. No one at GWoP gives a damn if you don't like them, but don't expect to have the blatant lies your friends are telling about them go unchallenged.

You now want to mingle words and change your mission from "discussion of the show Jon and Kate" to say "Yes, we might discuss GWoP because that would come under "issues surrounding the show." Fine. But let me point out, don't cry foul when GWoP veers from 'advocating for the children' to 'issues surrounding the show'. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your statement "people from GWoP somehow have the impression that this blog was started to just discuss what happens in each episode." when you call out GWoP if they dare discuss an issue surrounding the show or something that doesnt involve advocacy for the rights of the kids and their working conditions? I'll say one thing that may sound familiar to you: Sorry, you do not tell us what we discuss or blog about.

Oh Manda,There you go again. I re- read my post. Did I say I was losing control? I asked for suggestions before I set some type of policy. And to be honest with you, until someone posted this blog address on GWoP's website we had had NO probems. NOT ONE. I can't stess enough that I don't have a mission statement. I am not a hospital, school district or a Fortune 500 company. This blog is for entertainment purposes only. Not trying to save any children here. Believe it or not I do that in my real job. I know what abused and exploited children look and act like. I could write books about the situations I have dealt with and parents that truly are abusive and inadequate. I really just thought it would be nice to have some discussion about the situations that people thought were a problem over at the GWoP board. And be able to voice my opinion. I could not do that there. So I started this blog. Again, this is America and the last time I checked we could do those things. Manda, I do not want to battle with you. I would just like to have a discussion once in awhile. I can tell you have a passion for this subject. I do not. I am sorry if you are upset with the way I responded to you but to be honest with you, you came across like a teacher standing in front of a class lecturing me in front of my peers and wagging your finger at me. This point in my life, I do not need that.

Ninabelle, I certainly think you should be more appreciative when someone comes over and tells you how to run things at your own blog. SO ungrateful!

Seriously though, YOU ROCK!

And if anyone can honestly read Manda's manifesto and the word "condescending" or "presumptuous" does not enter your head, then you must be from GWoP. She may not have intended it, but it does come off that way.

Guinevere, you are HILARIOUS. Self-awareness? Don't tell anyone, but I really don't think that is part of the repertoire over there, knowhudimean?

All kidding aside, I really think there is an intrinsic problem with communicating through the written word - whether it be texting, e-mail, or a comment posted on a blog. As hard as we try to write exactly how we are feeling, there is no feeling attached to our words in the form of facial expression, body language or voice inflection. A comment can be posted with every good intention by the author to be courteous, fair-minded and even tempered, but without face to face communication, or even a human voice attached to that comment, it can be taken completely wrong by the receiver as condescending, preachy, sarcastic, delusional, any number of things that I myself have experienced through communicating in written form.

The other intrinsic problem specific to posting a comment on the internet is that we as posters, are insulated from face-to-face feedback from our fellow posters. I think this emboldens us to say things we normally wouldn't say if that person were standing right in front of us. Much the way drivers experience "road rage" at other drivers that they wouldn't dare approach outside the safety of their cars, we can experience "writer rage" (if I can coin a term) and write things that would make our mother's blush if we said them outloud.

Keeping these two intrinsic problems in mind has helped me keep a cooler head when tempted to spew venom over the internet. I really think that we would benefit from sitting down and having a cup of coffee with each other. It would in the very least, give us all faces behind the words that we write and give some needed perspective. Until our giant caffeine-filled conference occurs, I'm willing to give posters the benefit of the doubt about their intentions. I extend a welcome to both Manda and Sharla and I appreciate both their participation on this blog and the moderator's willingness to post it. I know that they have extended the same courtesy to me on their site when I have posted there.

MANDA HAS LOST HER MARBLES! She is the condeseding one. The are vicious over at GWoP and I am so happy this site is here. They contradict everything they say. I really think they are nuts if they do not see anything wrong with what they are doing. She just can't handle the fact that ALL opinions are being shared on the site! I think Jon and Kate are awesome parents. Can Kate be a little too uptight sometimes? Heck yea! That works for their family though. She makes it work that way. I do not see any other way it could work! Aunt Jodi's sister might want to get herself some help too if she thinks she is helping the situation. If I was Aunt Jodi my feelings would be hurt that my sister is running her mouth about things she knows nothing about. So what if they have a chef, someone to do laundry, or a nanny? I personally do not. No one knows if that was even true. I'm sure these helpers are not there everyday. Who could't use help like that atleast once a week? I know I could, but that must make me a crappy mom then!

are not phrases that someone typically utilizes to communicate respect.

I also find it odd that you are somehow offended at the big "bashfest" against GwoP here?

And then you wrote:

"don't expect to allow people to falsely accuse GWOP of horrendous things with no support whatsoever and not expect people from GWOP to show up and defend what they have worked their asses off to do; going out of their way, erring on the side of caution MANY MANY more times than you know just to keep any suggestion of that type of aggression and certainly unverifiable information about the Gosselins off the blog."

Goodness ... where to begin?

Have you read your disclaimer? Seriously?

Blog about anything you want, but don't kid yourself into thinking that you are doing this for anything other than "entertainment" value and blog traffic.

Comments published about the size of a mother's behind, her earrings and the "manberries" of a father do not even closely resemble advocating for the children they have.

Publicly diagnosing a woman with a psychiatric disorder who you've never met and permitting commenter after commenter to call her a shrew or a b-word is not doing this "for the children."

How does predicting the kids will be "drug users or dealers" or have unplanned pregnancies amount to advocating for them?

It is nasty. It is nothing more than snark. Maybe you justify it yourselves but I for one don't believe it.

I want to say that I agree with manda and I can see the points she is making in her posts.

You say you want this blog to be about entertainment. To me entertainment doe not include bashing the posters or other blogs.

I have belonged to a board for an American Idol contestant that has been running for over three and a half years now. The board is about the Idol only, no holds barred, say what you will, all opinions welcomed. The two strongest rules of that board that are inforced at all times are No Poster Bashing and No Talking About Other Boards, PERIOD! If you do, the post is deleted, you get a blue comment from the admins and if you do it again you are banned. It works and it is fair. Poster bashing is never right. It always causes trouble.

You know, if you found my tone offensive, Ninabell, fine, I'm sorry. I can be the bigger person here and say that to you. I know the intentions I had when I wrote it and although it is not in my nature to sugarcoat or be dripping fake-sweet, I didn't mean to offend you the way you obviously took it.

At this point, I don't think there's anything I could have said with you guys knowing I am from the GWOP side that would have been well received. That's been proven in your comments over and over again with the names anyone who merely says they are treated fairly there are called.

Anyway, again, I say how you chose to handle this speaks volumes about you and even though you are oblivious to it, I do still appreciate you laying it all out here like you have because it will show anyone who ventures here exactly what they are dealing with. Handling it like you did and allowing your very own sheeple to 'high 5' and attack in the face of it, just proves the true tone you want here and makes your initial pleas wanting to make this place better seem very disingenuous. Through this you have made your true character and intentions very clear. And obviously with rabid sheep like mcb, guinivere, amy marie and formergwopfan here, you will have plenty of company to feed that nastiness and bow at your feet to make you feel ohhh sooo good about it.

Manda - you are not making things better by coming back time and time again to criticize how this blog is run. If you don't like how it's being run no one is making you post here.

That being said, you are choosing to and when you insult specific members of the blog then you are asking for others to attack right back.

As I see it, you have become part of the problem that you are saying should not be allowed here. I'm not going to name call, but I'm sure you can see that something just isn't right about it.

You didn't mean to offend and I think it's great that you said you were sorry. I just don't see the point of stating you're going to be the bigger person about all of this and then fanning the flames with attacks.

You say you want this blog to be about entertainment. To me entertainment doe not include bashing the posters or other blogs.

I have belonged to a board for an American Idol contestant that has been running for over three and a half years now. The board is about the Idol only, no holds barred, say what you will, all opinions welcomed. The two strongest rules of that board that are inforced at all times are No Poster Bashing and No Talking About Other Boards, PERIOD! If you do, the post is deleted, you get a blue comment from the admins and if you do it again you are banned. It works and it is fair. Poster bashing is never right. It always causes trouble.

I do not see how entertainment includes poster bashing.

Different blogs have different rules - there is no "right" way to run a blog or a message board. I don't think "poster bashing" causes as much trouble as tracking strangers' movements, driving by their house and taking pictures, and generally trying to disrupt their lives. If you feel that "poster bashing" is worse than that, may I gently suggest that this is not the place for you?

tyra, I wanted to say, thanks for posting! It's nice to see a lurker come out and participate, and especially with a name so people know who you are (I don't begrudge people for posting anonymously but it's hard to have a conversation if you don't know if this anon is the same anon you've already talked to about something - it just gets confusing).

I wanted to say that about half your post exactly mirrors my feelings, particularly what you have to say about Kate Gosselin: "I think she loves her kids like crazy. I think she wears her phobias on her sleeve and lets them get in the way of everyone’s fun. I think she’s crazy in love with her husband, maybe a little insecure about their relationship, and I think she’s also pretty hard on him." I think that's spot on. I'll add my usual addendum that Jon doesn't always treat Kate that well, either (he's just a lot more passive-aggressive about it); that's not meant as a defense of Kate but it just bothers me that she gets criticized so much more when they are both guilty of being critical and snippy with each other.

Also: "The thing about J & K is that the show is not the only thing that’s interesting about the whole Gosselin ‘thing’. The reactions to it, to Kate especially, and the internet buzzing is also a fascinating subject of observation (for me). My biggest problem with TWoP was not being able to discuss those interesting accompanying phenomena: (OFF TOPIC!)"

YES! Exactly. That's one problem with TWoP in general, but it speaks also to the larger issue of the purpose (not the mission, because as stated by the blog owner I don't think this blog has anything so lofty as a mission) of this blog. Talking about J&K+8 without talking about the extreme negative reaction from some online quarters is like trying to ignore the proverbial elephant in the room. I'm happy to talk about the show and what I like about it and all that jazz, but yes, I'm also interested in the reaction and the reasons for it (such as the misogyny that I find inherent in the hatred of Kate Gosselin). I'm done apologizing for or trying to explain why I want to post on a blog about another blog. My reasons make sense to me, and at the end of the day I know I'm not trying to interfere with anyone's real life, nor am I associating with people who do. That's more than the regulars at GWoP can say.

Jessie, I appreciate your input. I think you always bring a level head (and humor)to the proceedings and that is always welcome. I agree with Jennifer, Linda, MCB, etc. I think Manda's initial post was quite clear and she knew the tone she was setting, but Ninabelle (yes, she does ROCK)has already addressed that so I don't think there is any point in treading over the same ground.

I do have to back up what others have said and also share my own experience. I submitted 3 or 4 rational, non attacking posts with correct spelling and grammer and they were never posted on GWoP. I can only draw one conclusion why. Sharla appears to be a welcome addition to the moderating team, so perhaps my posts would have gotten by her, but I am pretty certain the majority of the moderating team there does have a distinct bias and looks for reasons to not post anything perceived as remotely pro-Gosselin. And part of the reason I think things are pretty harmonious over there is that at any given time 85-90% of the posters are just agreeing with each other's points. What's their to fight about?

Manda, You need to just go. I think your are lost in your own backwards world and you don't belong here. I thought the initial reponse written to you was kind and well-worded and you completely twisted it, got defensive, and downright rude. (with expletives, no less.) You've tried making your point many times over. Now please go away!

I apologized for offending Ninabell with my intial comment. After she came back with her post to me where she felt the need to attack me, I lost all respect for her, this site, her posters and the situation. I do not care from that point on who I offend, as that same respect has not since been offered to me.

Read MY initial comment again. Until my very last paragraph, where I asked the seemingly touchy question, did she create the site to talk about the show or bash GWoP, there was nothing at all critical of how she ran her site and it certainly didnt venture into personal territory as she did addressing me throughout her entire reply.

And you are very right with this: "when you insult specific members of the blog then you are asking for others to attack right back." Same thing this entire blog did when they showed their obsession with GWOP.

And Linda? I can't even believe I am actually going to acknowledge your pathetic existence as you are the most annoying, probably in the top 2 of denied commenters GWoP has because of your insipid, idiotic, repetitive questions, and most assuredly the #1 laughing stock, and don't even try to say it's not you because they are the SAME questions word for word denied over and over again, but this :

From your original post ...

"Do you get it now?"

and from your last comment

"You just don't get it"

When I wrote "Do you get it now?" it was actually with a 'chuckle' in my head, as in, "See? It's not as easy as people seem to think." Maybe I should have said "Do you understand now?". Would that have made a difference? Again, I doubt any wording would have been well received because it simply came from someone you don't like. And the "You just don't get it.", obviously you are, once again, not following along, because if you were you would see Ninabell began her comment to me prior to that one with the same exact condescending sentence and tone.

Anon - I thought the initial reponse written to you was kind and well-worded

You're also probably one of those people who think Kate Gosselin speaks kindly and well-worded to her family, so I'll take that for what it's worth.

At the end of the day, all the most venomous posters who have shown their true colors over and over again on this entire blog can now come in here and play "Who, me? I'm nice and respectful of all who post here." but your previous words are here for all to see your true character. You can try to change it up now, as a result of this, and I hope you do. I hope this will make you all see how truly vicious you all have been in your posting well before I ever showed up and from now on maybe you will think twice about the nastiness you spew about fellow posters before you type.

"tyra, I wanted to say, thanks for posting! It's nice to see a lurker come out and participate, and especially with a name so people know who you are (I don't begrudge people for posting anonymously but it's hard to have a conversation if you don't know if this anon is the same anon you've already talked to about something - it just gets confusing)."

There are always reasons for everything. I post anonymously because I was told by the police when I filed my complaint to never use any name on any blog. They also told me that administrators are in place to keep peace on a blog and stop poster bashing and if you have a problem with another poster, to go to them for help. That did not happen for me, it got worse after I went for help. I can see by the tone of this blog that tere would also be no help. And for the record, I was not the only person being attacked by this Kate fanantic.

There are always reasons for everything. I post anonymously because I was told by the police when I filed my complaint to never use any name on any blog.

Well, it may come as a surprise, but my name is not actually "Guinevere" - I don't see what is dangerous about using a consistent pseudonym so people know who you are. If it's that risky, maybe we should all just stop communicating on the internet, period.

Anon, I'm sorry you had a bad experience at The Imperfect Parent site, but...that seems more of an issue to take up on that board, rather than argue over here. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to say that you're sure you wouldn't get help if you were harrassed on this board. I don't believe that would be the case, myself. Since you never did answer (at least that I saw) my question about the nature of the harrassment you received, I'm not sure what to say. If it was someone making an actual threat to you, then yes, contact the police, and I think the board owner has a responsibility to help identify the culprit. If it was just someone being nasty to you, and I don't care how nasty - I've seen unmoderated message boards where people are just utterly vicious and horrible - then I would think you would just not visit that site.

Considering you went through what sounds like a traumatic experience, I would think you would not be sympathetic to the people at GWoP who stalk and harrass the Gosselins.

amy marie - because you are all puppets on my string at this point and keep responding to me and asking me questions. This was all initially a comment I sent to Ninabell and she chose to open up this can of worms. Don't expect me not to stand in the line of fire and not answer for my actions that have been questioned.

It's clear you don't have a taste for my posts. I don't blame you, I wouldn't like it either. That mirror I held up to your face was kind of hard to take, huh?

And you can get back to sifting through the Gosselins' garbage, stalking them and various and sundry relatives of theirs online, and replaying various scenes from the show in slo-mo with the avid attention some people give to the Zapruder footage.

Well, it may come as a surprise, but my name is not actually "Well, it may come as a surprise, but my name is not actually "Guinevere" - I don't see what is dangerous about using a consistent pseudonym so people know who you are. If it's that risky, maybe we should all just stop communicating on the internet, period.

Yes, I know that "Guinevere" is not your real name I am not that unintelligent. The name I was using was not a real name either. I do not feel safe using any name after what happened as my posts can be singled out and I can be followed and many of you have already claimed that you see nothing wrong with poster bashing.

As far as GWoP, I have lived with and seen enough neglect and abuse of children in my own life that I admire that someone is doing something for the children.

"Handling it like you did and allowing your very own sheeple to 'high 5' and attack in the face of it, just proves the true tone you want here and makes your initial pleas wanting to make this place better seem very disingenuous."

Manda you must be living in lala land! You people over there at GWoP high five Serena with everything she does. Just go away! If your really believe that there is a bad tone over here, but not over at GWoP then you really are delusional! Maybe you need some psychiatric treatment! I really feel sorry for you. You are so full of hatred! Oh wait, I forgot it's all intended to help the children! Give me a break! What's going to happen when one of those creepers over there hurt Kate or try to "save" the children? Oh yea, your disclaimer shows that you are not responsible if anything like that happens! You need help!

"I hope this will make you all see how truly vicious you all have been in your posting well before I ever showed up and from now on maybe you will think twice about the nastiness you spew about fellow posters before you type."

We're vicious, but yet your pals over at GWoP are heroes for calling Jon & Kate every name in the book! They have called Mady a brat, accused sweet little Joel of being gay for goodness sakes, called Kate mean names, saying the kids are delayed, and praise pure evil! They are the vicious ones! So why don't you go back over there as spew your hatred because we do not want to see it over here! Obviously you are the one that can't take the criticism. So, you are guilty of what you are accusing us of...YOU CAN DISH IT OUT BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE IT!!!!

In the words of you and your heroes...I really think your being a bit SHEEPLE!!!

Manda said... amy marie - because you are all puppets on my string at this point and keep responding to me and asking me questions. This was all initially a comment I sent to Ninabell and she chose to open up this can of worms. Don't expect me not to stand in the line of fire and not answer for my actions that have been questioned.

It's clear you don't have a taste for my posts. I don't blame you, I wouldn't like it either. That mirror I held up to your face was kind of hard to take, huh?

August 8, 2008 11:22 AM Post a Comment

That made me laugh. I could never be so full of myself to actually type those words and mean it! Now that takes some balls! Hmmmm.. maybe she has some???

Oh, thank you imustbeasheeple and anon. More of my points being made. Of course, as much as I wish I could take credit for it all, I simply can't. You guys are really the ones doing all the hard work making examples of yourselves.

Keep going. This is fun and I can just sit back and watch it all unfold.

The folks at GWoP are presently "sifting through the Gosselins'garbage" at this very moment thanks to another enlightening post by 'Sister of the Year/The Truth Will Set You Free/Julie B./She Who Cannot Be Named' rehashing more supposed "insider" information about that shrew Kate.

I would think certain folks would be happier marching over there to dish the dirt than staying here and than regurgitating the SAME point over and over and over.

manda, you're just be a troll now - isn't being a creepy stalker enough for you? Gosh, I'd suggest taking up a less obnoxious hobby - stamp collecting? Birdwatching?

I recognize that this is just becoming a "who can get the last word in" game, and we're giving you what you want by responding. But please, I hope you are not laboring under the misconception that you are truly getting under anyone's skin. I know what you're about, just from your posts at GWoP. None of your passive-aggressive mind games are going to affect me in the slightest because I don't respect you or care what you think.

Yes, I know that "Guinevere" is not your real name I am not that unintelligent. The name I was using was not a real name either. I do not feel safe using any name after what happened as my posts can be singled out and I can be followed and many of you have already claimed that you see nothing wrong with poster bashing.

I didn't call you unintelligent; there is no need to be defensive. I still don't understand if your issue is about something serious and sinister being done to you (I don't understand what you mean by "being followed" in this context), or just that you don't want to be "bashed". I don't think you need the law to protect you from getting your feelings hurt or from someone being mean to you. I'm not trying to attack you - you responded to my post about being anonymous. The fact is even if you don't attach a name, any name, to your post, if you talk about the same things (talking to the police, people being mean to you on another board), people know who you are just as much as they would if you gave yourself a name. So I still don't quite get the issue, but it's not like I want to argue about it.

I am one of the posters who commented on the frequent mention of GWoP on this board, though I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. The reason talking about GWoP is a nuisance to me is because a majority of the comments that mention GWoP are ONLY about GWoP. I lurk more often than I post, so it's frustrating when I'm trying to read comments about something specific (the "All Aboard" episode is the most obvious example) and the majority of the comments are about those crazy/psychotic/etc. GWoPers. One post of that nature spurs similar comments and its irritating to have to "sift through the mud", so to speak, to get to well-reasoned and well-written posts. Since GWoP is related to J&K+8, I do think discussion of that blog is relevant, as previous posters have mentioned. However, if the discussion of GWoP solely consists of generic examples and unproven assumptions, that adds nothing to the blog. Bottom line, I think discussion of GWoP (or any other blog) should be limited to comments such as, "GWoP has incorrect information about _______. I know/read/etc. that ______ is the truth." If someone disagrees with a post elsewhere and wants to voice his/her opinion, why not write a rebuttal with supporting arguments and let people comment on that without mentioning another blog? I think the blog should stand alone with its (varied) opinions, not as a "reaction" to another blog.

With all due respect, bigsis, and I'm really not trying to be rude, but are you practicing what you're preaching? So far, what I've seen of your posts seem to be complaining about other people talking about GWoP, not you actually discussing the show.

I would suggest that you submit an entry to the blog owner on something that is J&K+8 related but not GWoP related. As the guy on KFOG used to say, "If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."

You know, if I didn't know any better, I'd think Manda was Kate Gosselin.

Let's see:

Telling people what to do and how to think. Check. Constantly correcting others. Check. Pathological need to get the last word. Check. Lack of self-awareness to realize that she's being condescending and smug? Check-check.

If I didn't know that she was a member of GWoP and didn't really like the Gosselins, I'd have sworn she was Kate.

Okay, I'm going to go get the coffee now.....I think I better make it decaf and add half a jar of creamer to it like Kate does. LOL!

To Anya,

Thank you for your kind words. Maybe it's because I grew up in a family full of debaters that I am compelled to "keep the peace". Interestingly enough, my family has also shaped my humor so I owe them quite a bit of credit. LOL!I am also motivated by my faith and try and live out God's word that says, "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Whatever people believe, it is hard to argue against the truth of this verse.

I still stand behind my statement that GWOP has been nothing but fair and courteous to me when I have posted and Serena herself was prompt in her response and open to my concern when I e-mailed her regarding something that troubled me about some of the information printed in the posts.

That's not to say that my posts have never been rejected. My article on "Appealing to a Higher Authority" was a post that I originally submitted for publication at GWOP. It was never published and I never received an e-mail from the moderators explaining why. I can assume that based on the criteria for accepted posts that has been recently posted on GWOP's site, my article was denied because of the obvious "religious" tone to it. Ninabell was nice enough to contact me and asked if I would re-submit the article for consideration on this site. I am grateful for her willingness to do so and at the same time, I am not offended by GWOP's choice not to publish it. Their decision was consistent with the criteria that they established as moderators. I will even give them the benefit of the doubt that they may not have even received the article in the first place due to a computer connection problem. This happened during one of my correspondences with Ninabell so it is within the realm of possibility.

Gotta go pour myself a second cup of coffee. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on this matter.

Seriously, please do consider sending something to the blog owner and we can get another topic started that focuses more on the show.

I don't shy away from discussing issues outside of the show itself or other blogs, but honestly, I'd prefer to talk more about the show! I submitted a post a while back trying to get discussion going on what drew us to show in the first place. There were some interesting responses and I hope to see more of that.

My point is I think this blog IS about the show. Almost everyone who comes here (until a few days ago) are fans of the show. If our sole purpose was to snark about the other blog, I think we know there are already a couple of sites doing just that.

Lordy bee! Kate and her creamer! I too have noticed how much she puts in her coffee! Would you like some coffee with that creamer, Mrs. Gosselin? I wonder if it's organic? Could there be such a thing??? Personally, I like my coffee black, but I like to eat something sweet with it, so I guess we all have our vices...

I hear what you are saying about GWoP. For me, how they have chosen to moderate the blog is not even my biggest issue. It's their blog, so can do what they want. It does seem there has been some attempt of late to moderate some of the more harsh anti-Gosselin posts and let in a few more with different views. That said, I just don't think it's the place for me because I have a fundamental problem with the tactics of some of the more frequent posters.

Anyway, I really do admire how you live your faith and practice compassion. Even though I lean agnostic, I think it speaks very well of the positive effects of having faith because we all know it's not always easy to practice kindness and avoid judgement.

Guinevere - Every time I come to this blog and read the comments, yours stand out to be the most offensive. I don't agree with some of the posters you target but lighten up! Man, you must be one angry person judging by your posts. Almost each and every post is an attack on someone, can't you take the high road for once and just let it go? It seems like you take things so personally. May I suggest you take a break from this blog, take a deep breath and smile? You'll feel better! : )

My goodness the GWOPers sure are trying to control what is said here about them. Reminds me of all the comments they make about how horrible Kate is for trying to control everything in her life. GWOPers have created a name for themselves on the internet, and they are mocked on more boards than just this one. Maybe its time for them to deal with the consequences of their actions, instead of trying to go from blog to blog telling people what they are allowed to say.

I don't think you have done a very thorough search. "Guiny" (thanks Manda) does appear to have strong feelings about some of the malicioius activity we have seen from the other site. She's not alone in that feeling. Just because Guiny is articulate and puts some of these trolls in their place does not make her "angry" IMO.

I have seen plenty of her posts that contain ample doses of humor and discuss many positive aspects of the show and the family. She has also had rational discussions with those who disagree with her POV.

Guinevere, like I said, I prefer reading and (occasionally) responding because I usually don't have anything to say about the show itself that hasn't already been said. (I have other personal reasons as well.) However, IMO, I have "practiced what I preach" in that my posts have reasons, explanations, etc. behind them that someone can expound upon or challenge. A blanket statement like "Those ____ GWoPers are (insert adjective here)" can only be responded to with "ITA" or "No they aren't;you people are (insert adjective here)". Since, people have responded and reacted to my posts, I feel like they do add something to the discussion, which is the point of this blog, according to the top of the page.

Anya:I would/will submit something if I ever have anything interesting to say, but like I told Guinevere, I prefer to read and respond rather than initiate discussion. (Here comes the personal stuff...) I'm a Psych major so I find the family dynamics interesting (though that wasn't my original reason for tuning in), and, similarly, I am intrigued by the relationship between posters and how they relate to the show, especially as the Internet "tightens the circle", so to speak.

Guinevere - Every time I come to this blog and read the comments, yours stand out to be the most offensive. I don't agree with some of the posters you target but lighten up! Man, you must be one angry person judging by your posts. Almost each and every post is an attack on someone, can't you take the high road for once and just let it go? It seems like you take things so personally. May I suggest you take a break from this blog, take a deep breath and smile? You'll feel better! : )

Angry? No, I don't consider myself angry. To paraphrase Ninabell, this is just a TV show, not real life; I honestly do not care enough to be that angry about it. It's just that, while my likes include comfortable shoes, small furry animals (ew, not like that - get your mind out of the gutter!) and caramel sauce (again, not like that - too sticky), my dislikes include self-righteousness, lack of self-awareness and passive-aggressiveness. So you can see why the GWoPpers would make me a mite cranky.

Speaking of passive-aggressiveness, your post above is putting you well on the way to earning your passive-aggressive merit badge. I would just advise you to be a bit more subtle; when you start off by telling me how "offensive" I am, it's hard to pull off the imparting of an Important Life Lesson (with emoticons!) as you attempt at the end of the post. It's a tricky manuever; you might want to practice a bit more before you try it again.

bigsis, thanks for the explanation. I guess my reaction has something to do with something I've observed from time to time on Internet message boards: the poster who seems to think that everyone else is there to entertain them. I'm not accusing you of this; I respect your preference to respond rather than initiate posts. But that may mean that the discussion is not going to go in directions that interest you, if you are choosing not to be an active part of it. Am I making sense? As for setting rules for the form that posts should take, I kind of feel that's up to the blog owner, though I think posters can help "set the tone" and lead by example.

I really am happy to discuss the show (the family dynamics, for one, as you mention) as well as the relationship between posters and how they relate to the show. I can even do the latter without calling anyone names, though I think my opinions would likely still offend (for one thing, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think a big, heaping dose of misogyny is at the heart of many of the negative reactions to Kate Gosselin).

I don't perceive Guinevere angry or offensive. Her comments are always right on. She breathes a lot of life into this blog and I would not like her to take some time off. Guinevere isvery intellectual and sometimes people can find that offensive because it brings out their own feelings of inadequacy

Oh, you really should have kept publishing Manda's commnts. She wasn't doing herself or GWOP any favors with her comments and just kept digging a hole deeper and deeper. Hipocrisy that runs so deep she really just doesn't see it.

So sad. Some people really need to get a life. Or at least find a decent hobby. Something besides hating.

Angry? No, I don't consider myself angry. To paraphrase Ninabell, this is just a TV show, not real life; I honestly do not care enough to be that angry about it. It's just that, while my likes include comfortable shoes, small furry animals (ew, not like that - get your mind out of the gutter!) and caramel sauce (again, not like that - too sticky), my dislikes include self-righteousness, lack of self-awareness and passive-aggressiveness. So you can see why the GWoPpers would make me a mite cranky.

However I do agree that the tone of you posts come off aggrressive. My opinion is that is what you intend, and that may just be your personality. But as a LURKER, when I come across your posts, I tend to skim. They just are fun to read.

However I do agree that the tone of you posts come off aggrressive. My opinion is that is what you intend, and that may just be your personality. But as a LURKER, when I come across your posts, I tend to skim. They just are fun to read.

Hmm. I don't feel aggressive, any more than I feel angry. Maybe emphatic? I feel pretty emphatic in my opinions about this whole business - maybe that comes off as aggressiveness or anger to some; I don't know. The nature of the internet makes it easy to misinterpret intentions.

IRL, I swear, I am as meek as a lamb. I'm no Kate Gosselin! (Though weirdly, I do identify with some of her personality traits, which is probably one of the reasons I feel compelled to defend her.)

You probably skim my posts because I go on and on. I need to learn to be briefer!

Gee Betty, I would watch the Olympics with you but see I find it highly offensive that China abuses the human rights of its citizens. Im glad you found this blog offensive, maybe someday my sensitivity to such important matters will match yours.

The irony of this all is the GWOP was pretty much set up by a bunch of people that were kicked off of another site - TWOP - and upset about the HEAVY MODERATION of the J and K thread. Their posting was so over the top that most of the people were banned from TWOP and then the entire J and K thread was shut down - never to be opened again. The moderator could not handle it anymore. And now they are going to heavily moderate the GWOP comments? Strange. Basically I think the GWOP site is getting boring for these people. It is all the same same same. No fun when everyone agrees with you - right? They are missing the arguments they used to have, the things they did to get the TWOP thread locked down, the threats they liked to throw out, etc etc. Now they have set up GWOP and another Super Secret board that only they are allowed to go to...but it is boring when everyone posts the same stuff over and over. So now they need to come here and get some of that old glory back. Sad really...