tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post6543401297805064672..comments2015-05-09T11:04:45.821+01:00Comments on The Boiling Frog: Article 50 And Withdrawal The Boiling Froghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-63685953842578407382013-01-27T21:04:23.898+00:002013-01-27T21:04:23.898+00:00Thank you TBF.
Cosmic - the political/constitution...Thank you TBF.<br />Cosmic - the political/constitutional effects of the &quot;Henry VIII&quot; Acts is summed up neatly in the Articles of Religion of the Church of England (No XXXVII)<br />&quot;The King&#39;s Majesty hath the Chief Power in this Real of England and other his Dominions and is not, nor ought to be, subject to any foreign Jurisdiction...&quot;<br /><br />Earlier monarchs had restrained their subjects fro taking their cases to Church and Papal courts with successive Acts called &quot;Praemunire&quot; . If I remember rightly, the Wilson government repealed the remaining one in 1967 because it was &quot;old fashioned&quot; and &quot;hadn&#39;t been used for centuries&quot; In fact, thy were clearing the way for EEC negotiations. My hazy memory of A Level history tells me that &quot;the pains (I.e penalties) of Praemunire were indeed severe.<br /><br />Recourse to Papal and Church courts was frequently a Mediaeval form of tax avoidance/evasion. There is nothing new under the sun!Edward Spaltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04168350315689612490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-25012235695905612013-01-26T20:25:45.139+00:002013-01-26T20:25:45.139+00:00Thank you Edward Spalton for forwarding on the tex...Thank you Edward Spalton for forwarding on the text of my post, that is really appreciated.<br /><br />I completely concur with your comment that;<br /><br /><i>&quot;It would be commercially catastrophic to acquire a reputation as a country which tears up treaties. Our credit worthiness would head South, as interest rates headed North&quot;.</i><br /><br />Also in what is probably a &quot;can&#39;t see the wood for the trees moment&quot; I hadn&#39;t thought of this;<br /><br /><i>There is another important point. The fact that Article 50 exists makes it easier to lead the not very well informed MP towards the door marked &quot;exit&quot;. That is quite a mental revolution for most of them. They are timid herd creatures.</i><br /><br />An excellent comment, thank you.The Boiling Froghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-3065343346838884122013-01-26T18:38:52.658+00:002013-01-26T18:38:52.658+00:00@Edward Spelton,
&quot;I think there is a false d...@Edward Spelton,<br /><br />&quot;I think there is a false dichotomy between those who insist on a &quot;pure&quot; UDI and those, no less determined, who see the complexities which will need detailed negotiation as a result.&quot;<br /><br />It is a false dichotomy with any reasonable assumption of affairs continuing without complete disruption.<br /><br />With the Art 50 route, the ECA would be repealed but towards the end of the process.<br /><br />With the UDI route, unless total chaos was to be invited, there would need to be a holding act in place of the ECA so that things could be unravelled in an orderly way. Surely no one is pretending we can hit a reset button and reappear in an alternative history where we were never members of the EU.<br /><br />Much of the legislation, apparently coming from the EU, comes from international agreements entered into on our behalf by the EU, and which we more or less want, but not as embellished by the EU, or goldplated* in the UK. <br /><br />The comparison with Henry VIII is valid. The schism with Rome wasn&#39;t at first England becoming protestant, it was Henry becoming head of a Catholic church with not that much changing. The changes came later with Edward, Mary, Elizabeth etc and so to a fudged settlement in the late 1600s, that did for us.<br /><br />*Goldplating. It&#39;s a mistake to believe the EU is a foreign government and that matters begin and end with leaving it. Goldplating shows that EU or not, many of the problems are endemic in us, and while getting out of the EU would make solving them easier, it&#39;s not a magic spell.<br /><br /><br />cosmicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-88568889515764595112013-01-26T15:39:24.606+00:002013-01-26T15:39:24.606+00:00Thank you for a very clear article which is most i...Thank you for a very clear article which is most informative. My MP (already a. Member of Better Off Out) now has a copy.<br />The key to success in any negotiation is political determination. Where trade and its international regulation is concerned, it is surely preferable to work with the grain of already established procedures and conventions. <br />It would be commercially catastrophic to acquire a reputation as a country which tears up treaties. Our credit worthiness would head South, as interest rates headed North.<br /><br />This does not obviate the need for very strong, Henry VIII style legislation, re asserting sovereignty. I call this the &quot;belt and braces&quot; method. To simply tell Johnny Foreigner to sod off might go down well in the saloon bar but nowhere else. The &quot;Henry VIII&quot; measures would be equivalent to The Act of Supremacy and Act in Restraint of Appeals with dissuasive penalties to make sure that civil servants and quangocrats knew there was no going back and that Europhiles could not run off to the European courts to challenge decisions of government and Parliament during the negotiation. There would also be a need for an Act with a streamlined repeal procedure for Acts and legal decisions, enforced under EU procedures since the early Seventies.<br /><br />There is another important point. The fact that Article 50 exists makes it easier to lead the not very well informed MP towards the door marked &quot;exit&quot;. That is quite a mental revolution for most of them. They are timid herd creatures.<br /><br />I think there is a false dichotomy between those who insist on a &quot;pure&quot; UDI and those, no less determined, who see the complexities which will need detailed negotiation as a result.Edward Spaltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04168350315689612490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-47897862768013569462013-01-26T11:28:39.782+00:002013-01-26T11:28:39.782+00:00@William Guff, There&#39;s no provision in the Tre...@William Guff, There&#39;s no provision in the Treaty as such, if the conditions are unreasonable we simply don&#39;t agree and sit out the 2 years.<br /><br />However, the Vienna Treaty may come into to play that any unreasonable behaviour would be against the spirit of Lisbon so exit earlier on those grounds may be possible. But that is a guess on my part.The Boiling Froghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-43412495430763682422013-01-26T02:04:48.797+00:002013-01-26T02:04:48.797+00:00Is there not also a provision for withdrawal withi...Is there not also a provision for withdrawal within the two year negotiating period should the EU attempt to impose unreasonable conditions? Perhaps I&#39;m mistaken but I&#39;m sure I&#39;ve read that somewhere.William Gruffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02434757003701117714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-40610355621370896502013-01-25T23:24:57.125+00:002013-01-25T23:24:57.125+00:00A very interesting piece, thank you for making it ...A very interesting piece, thank you for making it all so clear. Why on earth can&#39;t DC show more clarification on what he really wants? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-35843821946424519512013-01-25T23:18:36.438+00:002013-01-25T23:18:36.438+00:00@Jo, thanks, my pleasure...@Jo, thanks, my pleasure...The Boiling Froghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-50731339768106848992013-01-25T22:50:19.448+00:002013-01-25T22:50:19.448+00:00This is great! Thanks so much.
JoThis is great! Thanks so much.<br />JoJonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-37378516226552979942013-01-25T21:14:16.543+00:002013-01-25T21:14:16.543+00:00@Ian E Thanks as well for your kind comment
@WfW ...@Ian E Thanks as well for your kind comment<br /><br />@WfW *blushes*<br /><br />@mikebravo Thank you very much, I quite agree that must put forward the A50 option at every opportunity<br /><br />@Demetrius Your comment is accurate thus sadly depressing. <br /><br />Why does it have to take unpaid bloggers to point this stuff out...?The Boiling Froghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-67063243351826600192013-01-25T18:19:01.593+00:002013-01-25T18:19:01.593+00:00James Higham said...
One overlooked factor wi...James Higham said...<br /><br /><i> One overlooked factor with Article 50 is that it actually [...]</i><br /><br /><b>Yes but that presupposes that we give a damn about EU provisions anyway.</b><br /><br />Erm...yes ... we could have a trade war with the EU. That will work.<br />3x2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-61835141817552460832013-01-25T17:39:40.572+00:002013-01-25T17:39:40.572+00:00This is a very informed piece. If a humble (or no...This is a very informed piece. If a humble (or not quite so humble) blogger can manage it, then how come all those learned blokes and blokesses in Whitehall do not seem to know even where to find it. Or perhaps they do not really want to know.Demetriushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17198549581667363991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-54910528375127137732013-01-25T17:17:10.609+00:002013-01-25T17:17:10.609+00:00Excellent article.
We must bring up article 50 at ...Excellent article.<br />We must bring up article 50 at every opportunity. It destroys the &quot;if we just left we wouldn&#39;t be able to trade&quot; argument. <br />It also shows cameron as a lying shite because it delivers everyting that he says he would like. ie trading with but not run by.<br />Blood pressure rising - beer.mikebravonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-5051933748774536352013-01-25T17:01:13.729+00:002013-01-25T17:01:13.729+00:00A superb article TBF and one of which you should f...A superb article TBF and one of which you should feel suitably proud.<br /><br />WitteringsfromWitneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16026875251366365154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-41241589161451691582013-01-25T13:40:56.651+00:002013-01-25T13:40:56.651+00:00Nice bit of analysis - thanks!Nice bit of analysis - thanks!Ian Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-63896140647324401942013-01-25T12:44:45.293+00:002013-01-25T12:44:45.293+00:00Thanks CR, me tooThanks CR, me tooThe Boiling Froghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-19522649585154448712013-01-25T09:14:48.546+00:002013-01-25T09:14:48.546+00:00Excellent piece.
I&#39;m up for invoking Art 50 r...Excellent piece.<br /><br />I&#39;m up for invoking Art 50 right now.<br /><br />CR.Captain Rantyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07839241144954596066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-77136676723068198002013-01-25T08:15:59.235+00:002013-01-25T08:15:59.235+00:00One overlooked factor with Article 50 is that it a...One overlooked factor with Article 50 is that it actually contains two choices of withdrawal not one; it allows for a negotiated agreement where the Member State in question and the EU agree terms but it also recognises a unilateral right of withdrawal<br /><br />Yes but that presupposes that we give a damn about EU provisions anyway.James Highamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.com