Watched the Imitation Game just now, because I'm slow with these things. While generally pleased with the movie, because it is a good movie, I had some issues since I actually was familiar with Turing's background, especially with some great documentaries BBC did on him with actual friends and family, and his correspondence.

1) They made him full on aspie. They made him unlikeable and socially inept. This is not remotely true to real life, and I wish they would stop giving geniuses this dramatic turn for the sake of movie-making. Alan Turing was a perfectly sociable individual.

Turing had actually many friends, was openly gay in his time (which is what led to his unfortunate meeting with police after reporting a robbery and implicating his boyfriend in it), and he was well liked by his students and peers. He became a world class marathon runner as a result of frustrations with getting his computer model accepted and didn't shy from the public. During his trial he didn't even deny being gay, and before he was charged he naively told the policemen who interrogated him the contents of his sexual encounter with the rentboy he suspected.

Turings was not only rather handsome, but he appeared to be charming enough to have little issue attracting men. He wrote correspondence to friends and colleagues about visiting some "male-only" dancing bars in Norway and other sexual exploits that made it inconvenient for the government to handle him (as they were worried about blackmail).

2) The whole silent, denied relationship with Christopher, his boarding school crush. Turing never denied him in the way he's portrayed in the movie. In fact, when Christopher passed away, he wrote a letter to Christopher's mother asking her for a picture on him and basically detailing how much he worshiped Christopher.

3) Joan Clarke never made it in through some crossword puzzle competition. Her parents were never not supportive of her mathematical endeavors; in that aspect she was a blessed woman in her time. Keira Knightley even admitted that she had to discard some of her actual research to accommodate a dramatic conceit made by directors and writers, because somehow reality needs to be compromised to move a story forward. Which makes you think why even bother including someone if you find them so boring as to alter who they are and what they did to make a story interesting.

Moving movie, but I really wish they'd stop giving characters the Philomena treatment. I recall watching the Philomena movie with Judi Dench and being pissed just at how much artistic license they took with the facts, completely distorting the characters (making Philomena a dimwit when she was actually a trained nurse), or fixating on the fact her missing son was a haunted, self-hating Republican homosexual as told by the author of the book it was based on (when by all actual accounts, both of the son's boyfriend and friends, the son was actually a rather satisfied with his life and was out to close friends).

But, anyways, rant over, it's still a good movie and I recommend it alongside the latest Mad Max and The Martian. I also saw the Revenant and, while good acting on di Caprio's part, found The Martian as a whole a superior movie.

Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

I was also really bothered by the great responsibility the creators decided to dump on the code crackers - making decisions on what to do with information was the military's job and definitely not theirs. Additionally, glancing over the fact a lot of their work was based on Polish scientists (I'm not sure it was even mentioned?) was frustrating - they basically gave up any pretense of science or collaborative work in order to create this myth of a lone hero working against all others.

Zohar wrote:I was also really bothered by the great responsibility the creators decided to dump on the code crackers - making decisions on what to do with information was the military's job and definitely not theirs. Additionally, glancing over the fact a lot of their work was based on Polish scientists (I'm not sure it was even mentioned?) was frustrating - they basically gave up any pretense of science or collaborative work in order to create this myth of a lone hero working against all others.

Yeah, they made no mentions of Polish scientists who had already made sort of a prototype to a computing machine. Yes, Turing's work was foundational and a breakthrough of magnitude, but what I see here is basically the treatment Wallace got when Darwin eclipsed him.

Unfortunately, in science publicity does matter quite a bit when credit is given. And it's not the first time Great Britain also tells the story in a convenient way to discredit/downplay its competitors.

Besides, Turing did plenty of collaboration. The movie-makers were just deadset on making him some abrasive loner, which as I said he simply wasn't. He may have had his quirks, but he was a charming guy well- liked by his students and colleagues. He would have never treated his peers the way the movie depicted him, snobbish and inhumane.

Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

It's a stop motion/CGI, created by Laika Studios. I've always appreciated Laika's stop-motion craftsmanship and meticulous detail. And the trailer makes the story seem pretty dang epic to me. So I can't wait till it comes out.

Family needs a new TV series to watch. We've gone through all the Star Trek series at least 3 times each now. Also Firefly and BSG (the good one). Something in a similar vein would be cool (definitely sci-fi).

Would you consider anime? Cowboy Bebop is a wonderful classic, and its dub (voices recorded in English) is pretty good. It's basically cowboys in space in like 300 years or something. Very "film noir" sort of atmosphere, with excellent music.

Planetes is another fantastic sci-fi anime, but I don't know if its dub is any good, you might want to watch it subbed (Japanese with English subtitles). It's about a group of garbage collectors in space, and it works very hard on being scientifically accurate.

Zohar wrote:Would you consider anime? Cowboy Bebop is a wonderful classic, and its dub (voices recorded in English) is pretty good. It's basically cowboys in space in like 300 years or something. Very "film noir" sort of atmosphere, with excellent music.

Its good, but Cowboy Bebop is for relatively mature audiences. I'd rate it PG13 at very least, not necessarily something "family friendly". A dude is taking eye-drugs and killing people in the first episode for example. But if Liri's family was fine with Firefly, they'd probably be fine with Cowboy Bebop (they're roughly on the same order of shoot-em-up / violence)

Star Trek / Stargate is more innocent / idealistic, and is something I'd be more comfortable showing at a younger crowd than Cowboy Bebop.

But yeah, space cowboys grabbing criminals. Outlaw Star is in a similar vein (outlaws grabbing stuff) with more story and more cheese (crazier villains, crazier plots, crazier powers).

Liri wrote:Family needs a new TV series to watch. We've gone through all the Star Trek series at least 3 times each now. Also Firefly and BSG (the good one). Something in a similar vein would be cool (definitely sci-fi).

Things I know about/have seen: Babylon 5, the various Stargates

Outlaw Star needs a special mention for any Firefly fan. The first episode has the main characters (who happen to be a gang of outlaws) find a sleeping girl in a box who joins their party... in space. (Sound familiar??) Its no secret that Firefly drew some inspiration from Outlaw Star, despite one being live-action and the other being anime.

KnightExemplar wrote:Its good, but Cowboy Bebop is for relatively mature audiences. I'd rate it PG13 at very least, not necessarily something "family friendly". A dude is taking eye-drugs and killing people in the first episode for example. But if Liri's family was fine with Firefly, they'd probably be fine with Cowboy Bebop (they're roughly on the same order of shoot-em-up / violence)

Yeah I wasn't going to post it initially, then I noticed they saw BSG (which in my mind is more violent and gritty than Firefly).

Also, THE scene that the "Firefly" producers clearly grabbed from Outlaw Star:

Spoiler:

The shows are dramatically different however in tone and character development (IE: Anime cat girls). But there are a huge number of superficial similarities.

Zohar wrote:

KnightExemplar wrote:Its good, but Cowboy Bebop is for relatively mature audiences. I'd rate it PG13 at very least, not necessarily something "family friendly". A dude is taking eye-drugs and killing people in the first episode for example. But if Liri's family was fine with Firefly, they'd probably be fine with Cowboy Bebop (they're roughly on the same order of shoot-em-up / violence)

Yeah I wasn't going to post it initially, then I noticed they saw BSG (which in my mind is more violent and gritty than Firefly).

Never saw BSG.

The thing about Cowboy Bebop is that while the core story is serious, the anime writers aren't afraid to get silly every now and then. Ex: Mushroom Samba episode. Cowboy Bebop has a non-linear story that rewards people who watch the show in order... but doesn't demand the audience to do so.

Shinichirō Watanabe (the director) has done Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, and most recently "Space Dandy". Space Dandy is good but its a ridiculous cartoon / anime comedy that's a very different beast. Nothing is like Space Dandy so... yeah... that thing. The only similarity is the non-linear story of Space Dandy, but its so different its hard to describe it. Its an anime that tries to be different for the explicit purpose of being different. Like Dr. Gel's design... or his spaceship.

Samurai Champloo is basically Cowboy Bebop, except its about Samurai in late 1800s Japan instead of Space Cowboys. With a hip-hop / rap motif for the soundtrack instead of smooth Jazz.

Violent loss of limbs and violent deaths ahoy btw. Anyone who likes Cowboy Bebop will probably like Samurai Champloo. The tone and pacing are identical, except with a new cast of characters in a dramatically different setting.

Zohar wrote:Agreed, although I think I liked the ending of Samurai Champloo a bit more than Cowboy Bebop.

The non-linear story never really worked with me actually :-p.

I can see why a lot of people like the show (either Cowboy Bebop or Samurai Champloo), but it doesn't match my tastes personally. I can recommend it though, because virtually everyone I know likes the show more than I do.

I think I liked an anime like Baccano more than Cowboy Bebop for example. Just how my personal taste goes I guess. Cowboy Bebop / Samurai Champloo wraps up each episode so cleanly, there's very little motivation to move onto the next episode. Yeah, a story eventually is built out from the format (which is impressive), but Watanabe would draw me in a bit more if he offered more direct cliffhangers.

Despite the tense plot, the show doesn't really demand much from the audience. Which is kinda cool, but not really my style I guess.

We probably won't watch anime, unfortunately. I have tried to watch good ones and I just can't get into them. We've watched Doctor Who, too - it didn't occur to me to list it with sci-fi shows.

My brother is 17 and I'm 23. He's currently watching Peaky Blinders, so you don't need to worry about the "family" aspect so much. If there's something super good we need to see that isn't sci-fi I'll take that, too.

I like anime, but subtitles can be pretty hard. Often the subtitles end up the same colour as the background, and/or too small, and you can't really have it on in the background while you do something else.

'Look, sir, I know Angua. She's not the useless type. She doesn't stand there and scream helplessly. She makes other people do that.'

Angua wrote:I like anime, but subtitles can be pretty hard. Often the subtitles end up the same colour as the background, and/or too small, and you can't really have it on in the background while you do something else.

One of the reasons why I recommend Cowboy Bebop to non-anime watchers is because its one of the few anime where the English dub is strictly superior to the subtitles. You want to watch that one in English.

There are more and more good quality dubs as well. I'd say that a lot of the great anime: Gurren Lagaan, Madoka, Fate/Zero, and Death Note have good enough dubs. So feel free to watch in English if that suits your fancy.

Zohar wrote:I was actually going to suggest Quantum Leap as well. Too bad about anime, but I understand for some people it's inaccessible.

I'm of the opinion that there's some anime out there that people will like. Anime is extremely wide in scope, from Spirited Away (Adventure), The Girl who leaped through Time (Drama / Romance), Princess Jellyfish (Girl coming of age story), Paprika (Experimental Dream Art), Ghost in a Shell (Sci Fi), The Slayers (High Fantasy Adventure), One Punch Man (Comic-book Superhero), Flying Witch (Pleasant Slice-of-Life), When They Cry (Murder Mystery), Death Note (Crime Drama)... there is basically something for everybody here.

I will say that "Anime Sci Fi" isn't the same as "American Sci Fi" (except for "Time of Eve"). So its not like you can pick something you like the American-version of and you'll like the Japanese version. Anime is definitely its own thing. But there's just so much out there that I'm sure Everybody will like something.

--------------

I have two groups I watch anime with. One hates subtitles, the other hates dubs. So I often watch the both versions of anime. The quality of dubs really has gone up in the last 10 years.

The main cultural barriers to anime are:

* Lip Sync -- American cartoons pay very close attention to lip sync. Even in Japanese, the anime audience basically doesn't care. So you basically only get three mouth positions. Hell, the Japanese dub doesn't always match those mouth positions. So you gotta get used to low-quality sync (compared to American cartoons, like South Park, which only have decent lip sync and everything else about the art is shitty).

* Anime language -- More and more anime are making self-referential jokes like Deadpool. And this has become a language of its own: Tsundere, "Baka-baka-baka", etc. etc. Some of these are body language, like how nosebleeds are the reaction to a cute / hot girl (or guy).

You're basically never going to find an anime with good Lip Sync (dubbed or subtitled), but finding anime with less "anime language" tends to be better for beginners IMO. Spirited Away and Cowboy Bebop are examples. Although last week, I got a non-anime watcher to enjoy Kill-la-kill. So sometimes, some people just prefer jumping into the middle of things.

-----------

What I can agree to, is that due to the "anime culture", there's a lot of things to get used to with anime. So if the cultural barrier is never crossed, it is hard to fully enjoy an anime. From legitimate deficiencies (like the lip-sync thing) to just cultural differences, there is definitely a barrier. But once the barrier is crossed, there's probably something for everybody.

I've seen Spirited Away, which I enjoyed. The issue for me is along the lines of the body language thing - the -often- excessive/unrealistic movements really get to me. This might sound dumb, but cartoons not putting effort into appearing natural bother me (it's not just anime). The sharp lines and angles in a lot of the drawing style bothers me, too. In general it's an aesthetic boundary.

There are a number of live-action Japanese films I love, like the original Shall We Dance

I went through this thread last night looking for movie recommendations and watched Primer. The low-budget showed, but it was well-shot. It was quite realistic, but the conversations weren't cringe-worthy. I also get all of this comic.

Liri wrote:I've seen Spirited Away, which I enjoyed. The issue for me is along the lines of the body language thing - the -often- excessive/unrealistic movements really get to me. This might sound dumb, but cartoons not putting effort into appearing natural bother me (it's not just anime). The sharp lines and angles in a lot of the drawing style bothers me, too. In general it's an aesthetic boundary.

There's a list of high-quality anime original movies that try to get those details right and tone that stuff down. A lot of anime-fans call that "ham" btw. Other people like ham (and Code Geass is probably the king of ham, enough that it has spawned its own memes)

On the other end of the scale, you have more serious films like "Tokyo Godfathers". From here, your big name directors are Miyazaki (Spirited Away), Satoshi Kon (Tokyo Godfathers), and Mamoru Hosoda (Summer Wars).

Miyazaki specifically criticized animes in general because of what you say. A lot of the drawings aren't how people move or act in real life... which in Miyazaki's eyes took away from the experience. Which is probably why you enjoyed "Spirited Away", as Miyazaki keeps the ham down and tries to be more "realistic" with how characters interact with each other.

Hosoda's stuff has that distinctive taste of "anime-ham", such as anime nosebleed and the "Eeeeehhhh!!??!?!?". But its definitely toned down compared to the typical anime. Summer Wars also has a solid Sci-Fi feel and is my personal favorite movie of the bunch, so I put it as #1. But again, I definitely admit it has a chunk of "anime ham" in it... but the majority of the film keeps it real.

If that still is too hammy, try Tokyo Godfathers. Satoshi Kon's animation style is quite unique.

Ghost in a Shell has many versions, I'm talking specifically about the 1995 film. Its a bit weird but a lot of cool cyberpunk concepts are explored. It has been a long time since I've seen that film however, over 10 years ago.

You've already seen Spirited Away, which is probably the #1 pick from Miyazaki. Other films I enjoyed from him were "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind" and "Princess Mononoke"... Nausicaa strikes a very similar tone, while Princess Mononoke strikes a more violent tone. Since Nausicaa has so many similarities with Spirited Away, I'll recommend it second.

I'd say that when a typical American talks about anime they might be talking about the "Shonen" genre, which translates to "Young Male Audience". These are typically shows with large hammy overacting, powering up, special poses which grant special powers and the like (although "Shonen" really is somewhere between a demographic and a genre). Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon... very popular shows in their own right but not all anime is like that.

So... what I'm saying is... it will depend on who you ask really. Within the anime community, Miyazaki is considered 100% anime, but I definitely know people who put his work in a different category for very good reason. To me, its just another genre of anime.

--------------

In any case, Miyazaki's style makes his films far more approachable than say... Steins;Gate (yes, the semi-colon is how you spell the title). The hammy overacting + catch phrases + Akihabara Culture references + uncomfortable sex jokes + obscure internet rumors just make Steins;Gate hard to get into.

A lot of anime-watchers are impressed with a show like Steins;Gate... for very good reason. But I really can't recommend the show to a "Muggle" so to speak. You need to be comfortable with anime to really grasp the "culture" Steins;Gate celebrates.

I saw The Handmaiden yesterday. It's a Korean film by the same director who did Oldboy. The movie's based on the 2002 novel "Fingersmith", but while that one is set in Victorian England, the movie's set in the beginning of the 20th century in Korea.

It's dubbed an "erotic thriller" and that's not a bad description. The plot follows a young thief who's sent to be the handmaiden of a Japanese woman with a large inheritance in Korea as part of a con to take all of her money. However, the two women get involved romantically and that complicates things quite a bit.

The story has great plot twists, it's humorous, and offers an interesting outlook at the male gaze. There's some really fantastic stuff there.

My only two issues with the film are the gratuitous sex scenes (multiple) and a torture scene at the end of the movie. The torture scene doesn't add anything to the movie, I felt. It's not too gruesome, but it's very cringe-inducing. It's very much in the style of this director though.

The sex scene generally serve an important purpose in the film. However, they feel longer and more blatant than they need to be. In a movie that talks a lot about how men view women, both literally and figuratively, having a scene that is not-so-borderline lesbian porn was unwelcome.

Overall if you feel you can overlook those two things, I think it was a really great experience. Most of the movie is in Korean, but there are some parts in Japanese. The subtitles in our theater had different colors, and it did give some more context to the relationships portrayed on screen.

Liri wrote:I will check those out, thanks! I think I'd read that about Miyazaki. Can something be a Japanese cartoon without bring anime?

Not really. The Japanese word for animated cartoons is anime.

I would even say that cartoon is how we call American animation :p. Because anime makes much more sense as a word for animated pictures, than cartoon.

Zohar I have seen the Handmaiden as well, and I loved it. In my (French) theater as well the subs were in two different colors depending on language (Japanese or Korean), and I think it was quite clever indeed. I wouldn't agree that this movie is mostly about how men view women (which is not strictly what you said) or that lesbian porn is unwelcome for related reasons. Some people may not like it (and should be informed before they watch this movie), but I like the idea that artists can do whatever they want in that regard.

(Also KnightExemplar Tokyo Godfathers is somehow a tribute to Three Godfathers, which you may want to watch if you haven't).

Angie Tribecca is very loosely a comedy, police procedural. Stephen Colbert called it the stupidest show he's ever seen, as a compliment. It has sketch comedy style, but follows consistent characters through a ridiculous, but roughly coherent plot.

People of Earth is fantastic. Wyatt Cenac is a journalist sent to do a story on an alien abduction support group. Like the quirkier episodes of The X-Files, you get a little more out of it if you're familiar with paranormal investigation, Mysterious Mysteries type of stuff, but it's not necessary. it has a fair bit in common with Parks and Rec. similar found-family of loveable weirdos, similar small town. It also has some really good creature effects.

There's also Search Party which I can't fully recommend, because I can barely watch it. It is terrible people in agonizingly awkward social situations, but it's really compelling and well made.

I haven't finished watching it yet, but I think I should make some free advertising for Lastman (English teaser). It seems to be the first French animated tv series aimed at adults ever. (There was animated movies for adults before).

It looks like American animation of American comics, and actually seems to happen in the US. The animation isn't great (and this was crowdfunded) but the story is good (although I haven't watched it all yet) with humor and dark fantasy (à la Lovecraft). I like how the goons look like the goons from Nadia, but I don't know if that was intended.

I don't know how available it is in your country, or how good the English dubs are.

From abîmer? Not sure what the translation would be - inferior? Spoiled?

TEAM SHIVAHNPretty much the best team ever

From growing up in a world of polarised, self-serving world leaders ready to risk international conflict, through the dawning of hope at the end of the cold war and now, erm... Anyway, smart phones are pretty cool!- Jumble

I don't know the series you're referring to, so no insult was intended. It did seem odd that you'd use a word based on abîmer to describe something you liked. That's kinda why I asked. (If I'd thought a bit harder, I probably could have hit on "typo" as an explanation. It's a neighbouring key, after all. )

TEAM SHIVAHNPretty much the best team ever

From growing up in a world of polarised, self-serving world leaders ready to risk international conflict, through the dawning of hope at the end of the cold war and now, erm... Anyway, smart phones are pretty cool!- Jumble