I suppose when push comes to shove, I'm sort of taking the eternal bliss route right now by avoiding my true passions and working for the man. Sometimes I feel like a coward in that respect. And I desperately want my children to chase a passion, instead of a paycheck.

I have always said that if a god was real, there would be no atheists. If a god such as bible god truly presented itself to me, and gave me the choice, I would likely choose eternal bliss. Damn, I hate the thought though.

By the way....that's some pretty impressive torture techniques you've got...You should try and hook up with god and get some of them implemented..... Hell!..he may even put you on staff !

Shoot - come into my garage. I haven't even talked about what I could do to you with my table saw. Remember this scene from Goldfinger?

As soon as I put you or Nammy or One Above All or sun king or any of you other keyboard heros on the table, spread your legs, and you hear the whir of the blade coming towards the family jewels, you'll start bauling like a beat stepchild begging to show you the way to the altar - but it'll be too late. I won't even have to do any damage to you. So, I respectfully disagree you'll actually choose eternal torture, if the real situation came true, because you are fully able to imagine what might happen and you won't even chance it.

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to pick eternal torture if they had to spend, oh, an hour or so watching the people who already picked it writhing in agony before making the choice? Not to demean anyone's bravery, but I don't think there would be many who could.

I have to agree with Hal that people who choose torture are unrealistic, or does not get the picture of eternal torment.

The only problem with this hypothetical is I can't seem to get people to consider the actual scenario and put themselves in it. It's way to easy to create noble heroic paragraphs in which you stand up for your moral code and choose eternal tortue. I apologize, but I think that's a total load of bullshit.

Even I can concede that after a brief moment of torture I'd be begging for mercy. Maybe we should add that option to the poll, if you voted for eternal torment would you regret it and ask to change your mind?

Logged

Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

^ That is HAL's point though. Now that you've acknowledged you wouldn't be able to handle the torture and you would regret not pushing the other button, pushing the blue button would be irrational, and from here on you making the claim that you would still push the blue button would either show you are insane or a keyboard hero.

Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.

Logged

Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Wait - I didn't say you were dead in the hypothetical and it's obvious you aren't. The choice is "worship god or eternal torture". The choice wasn't "Worship god to get to Heaven or eternal torture."

I said that Biblegod was proven to exist and you had to choose to worship it or accept eternal torture. That means while you are alive you worship it by doing whatever it requires as actions for worship. and then when dead you don't get eternal torture. What you get for worshiping it is not part of the hypothetical. If you choose not to worship a proven deity, then when you die you get eternal torture. That's why I said you would be insane to not worship a proven deity.

Did you make a mistake here or are you moving the goalposts? Above when jetson mentions "eternal bliss" you accept that. Except that "eternal bliss" means dead and in heaven. Now when I ask about activities in heaven you say that in the hypothetical it is supposedly obvious we aren't dead. That's false since it gave no indication whatsoever and your statements to jetson indicate agreement that we are dead. So either you just screwed up or moved the goalposts.

Considering you also added the condition that if we fail in our worship we again get eternal torture, it sounds like moving the goalposts.

Ignoring that, do we get to ask biblegod if what we've been feeling as a message from him is the right way to worship him? Because normally killing people is a bad thing but if they're messages from god then they'd be the right thing to do (if he proved himself). See the movie Frailty for a clear reference.

One good thing about still being alive for the worship now is that it makes finding the Westboro Church people and those of their ilk easier.

Logged

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Just exactly how can "goddaddy" torture a "soul"? Since I don't have one or at least it has never registered anything in my existence, I don't think it has any pain centers, thus he's free to torture away. It's kind of like getting burned in the crematorium, it may be dang'd hot, but it won't hurt one bit no matter haw much malice the funeral home director heaps upon me. If my "ghostly spirit" did survive my death in some way, how do you know it won't thrive on masochistic tortures. Maybe my soul would like it? We don't know.If my "soul" was all knowing because "god's" plan would be complete, then perhaps I would be godly able to withstand happily any tortures found in hell. I would have supreme fixed powers of concentration wouldn't I? How hard would it be to convince myself that hell is better than sex and deserts?

Did you make a mistake here or are you moving the goalposts? Above when jetson mentions "eternal bliss" you accept that. Except that "eternal bliss" means dead and in heaven. Now when I ask about activities in heaven you say that in the hypothetical it is supposedly obvious we aren't dead. That's false since it gave no indication whatsoever and your statements to jetson indicate agreement that we are dead. So either you just screwed up or moved the goalposts.

It's not obvious you're alive in the hypothetical? Really? I've never heard of anyone who ever thought you'd have a choice after death regarding the fundamental tenet of the hypothetical I used. The whole thing is based on accepting the proof of god before death and making a choice to worship it or, in the face of the proof, not worshiping the proven deity and accepting nasty consequences. After death? Well it's kindof a done deal then isn't it? Either your in or your out. You can't deny the proof after death - you're either on the express elevator up, or down (as regards Biblegod). So I thought it was patently obvious you were alive.

Also it's generally accepted that Biblegod allows nice things in Heaven if you accept it (if it was real), so Jetson was I guess just using that angle so he would think through and not give a silly answer such as accepting eternal torture. I don't remember all the wild speculation that everyone has done, so if it makes you happy just call it a mistake to allow it.

Quote

Ignoring that, do we get to ask biblegod if what we've been feeling as a message from him is the right way to worship him? Because normally killing people is a bad thing but if they're messages from god then they'd be the right thing to do (if he proved himself). See the movie Frailty for a clear reference.

Sure, you can ask him anything you want to. I don't know if you will get an answer though. Hehehe, I could make a good theist couldn't I?

Quote

One good thing about still being alive for the worship now is that it makes finding the Westboro Church people and those of their ilk easier.

^ That is HAL's point though. Now that you've acknowledged you wouldn't be able to handle the torture and you would regret not pushing the other button, pushing the blue button would be irrational, and from here on you making the claim that you would still push the blue button would either show you are insane or a keyboard hero.

EXACTLY! Thank you for the post.

"I can't take the pain but I'll just make a point by pressing the Blue button - uh - a point to ... somebody I'm not sure who ..."

It's just, well, weird that these smart people can extrapolate all manner of possibilities in their everyday lives and on this forum when presented with hard problems, but then when it comes to this one, they can still do it, but yet say they will press the blue button anyway when they just said in their last breath why they shouldn't. I guess it's a neverending source of amusement for me at least. LOL.

Correct. After all, you don't get eternal torture starting the moment after you press the hell button unless you are dead. If you die from pressing one button, why not the other?

No, no, no. You don't die immediately from pressing either button. You permanently commit to a choice, that's all for the time being. If you worship god while alive you do not get eternal torture when dead. If you don't worship god while alive you do get eternal torture when dead. Meanwhile you are alive after pressing the buttons - one group is worshiping Biblegod according to His worship rules, and the other is going to strip joints and partying down, but... when they die they get eternal torture because they didn't worship Biblegod while alive.

No, no, no. You don't die immediately from pressing either button. You permanently commit to a choice, that's all for the time being. If you worship god while alive you do not get eternal torture when dead. If you don't worship god while alive you do get eternal torture when dead. Meanwhile you are alive after pressing the buttons - one group is worshiping Biblegod according to His worship rules, and the other is going to strip joints and partying down, but... when they die they get eternal torture because they didn't worship Biblegod while alive.

You are presenting something quite different from the original hypothetical here. The only reason to have a button to press is if you need to make a choice right then and there. This living after you press the button is a new twist on the question and makes pressing the button pointless if what matters is whether or not you worship.

So the new question is:If Biblegod shows himself to exist, would you worship (knowing that if you didn't you would eventually burn in hell once you died normally)?

Logged

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

You are presenting something quite different from the original hypothetical here.

I had to do the button thing because people were trying to wiggle out of the stark choice any way they could.

Quote

The only reason to have a button to press is if you need to make a choice right then and there.

Right. That's what I'm trying to get people to do. Yes.

Quote

This living after you press the button is a new twist on the question and makes pressing the button pointless if what matters is whether or not you worship.

It's not a new twist, I never thought people would assume you would get to choose to worship after death. I've never heard anyone argue that would happen. No, I disagree it makes the button pointless. It makes these people commit to a choice instead of trying to weasel out of the hypothetical.

Quote

So the new question is:If Biblegod shows himself to exist, would you worship (knowing that if you didn't you would eventually burn in hell once you died normally)?

I think what Hal is asking here what would you do if you can really choose between 2 choices, and he has already covered that when he said "worship", it meant through actions, not with thoughts, so there is no such thing as "I can't worship him since I can't love him so there is no choice for me", but instead people still answer with "there's no choice for me because I can't worship it"?

I never responded that way, and neither did many others. The hypothetical is: Biblegod exists. But the thing is: to over a billion people on Earth actually believe Biblegod exists, and choose to worship out of fear, actual love, or they were brainwashed to. The fear is going to a horrible place like Hell. So, they choose to worship this being that, I bet, many of them despise. WE as atheists choose not to, and in the Christians mind we are going to Hell. In their mind, that's our choice.

So, all the atheists on here, who are currently choosing Hell based on their perception that there's no possible way, or it's highly improbable that the deity in the Bible exists because of all the faces it has, or what not, are saying that if, hypothetically, it was shown to exist, they'd bow down in a heartbeat; some stating they'd fake it as if Biblegod couldn't tell, or that they'd wait and overthrow him, as if an angel, and its pals didn't try that before--anything to sell themselves that they are not cowards when in effect: they are and basically have no conviction.

I mean: why are they even atheists at the moment? I know this is a hypothetical but some of them gave it no thought whatsoever: they'd beg for forgiveness in a heartbeat. Doesn't say much for them, no? Or you, I guess.

Quote

I have to agree with Hal that people who choose torture are unrealistic, or does not get the picture of eternal torment.

No, it isn't unrealistic 'cause by being atheists that's exactly what "we're" doing at the moment. No one on this website, or any website can say with 100% certainty that Biblegod doesn't exist without it being their strong opinion that it is. But also, no one on this website, or anywhere else can show with 100% certainty that Biblegod exists. That's what one gets when a thought becomes shared.

Quote

It's probably easier to ask, what if, a crazy dangerous asshole kidnapped you, and tells you that you either kiss his ass 3 times a day for 7 days, or let him and his buddies rape you over and over again for 7 days, while cutting a piece of your skin off and a bit of your finger/toe off bit by bit while doing so for 7 days?How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Quote

I believe that people would, out of their impulse and stupidity choose torture, but I also believe that everyone of them will give in and regret it sooner or later.

They'd probably regret it as they chose the torture but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't choose the torture. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.

Even I can concede that after a brief moment of torture I'd be begging for mercy. Maybe we should add that option to the poll, if you voted for eternal torment would you regret it and ask to change your mind?

Begging for mercy isn't the same thing as giving up and saying, "I worship and praise you oh mighty one.", of course if one does that, at least they can say they tried, Hal and the others on his side couldn't even say that much.

Because there isn't proof of a any gods, not to mention there's no good evidence of them either. You keep making the same mistakes over and over. Being an atheist has nothing to do with taking heroic stands against gods if they possibly were to exist. I think you're demonstrating to us all why you are making the choice you are making.

The question is strange; as far as I can see, Bible God v.1 OT did require worship and laid out at great length how to do it in the Temple and via animal and human sacrifice.

Bible God v1.1 NT did not require worship; Christ’s point was that the Jews were concentrating on worship and the ritual of worship to the exclusion of “being reasonable.” The nearest Jesus came to demanding worship was in Luke 19:27 – killing people who did not accept him as leader; on the other hand, he said, “when you pray, pray in private.” (The “when” here could well be taken as “if”.) Hellfire and Damnation is for those who do not operate as per His words, not for those who do not worship.

Bible God v.1.2 (Paul’s writing and those attributed to Paul) concentrates on faith (Acceptance of Jesus) and works and does not speak too much of worship.

The question therefore is the same as some Cambodian back in the day saying, “if Pol Pot is shown to be the President, would you accept that he was president and obey his laws or would you agree to be executed?”

My answer would be, “I would say that I accepted Pol Pot as president and try to keep out of his clutches whilst hoping for change.”

Logged

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

I mean: why are they even atheists at the moment? I know this is a hypothetical but some of them gave it no thought whatsoever: they'd beg for forgiveness in a heartbeat. Doesn't say much for them, no? Or you, I guess.-Nam

The hypothetical, in whichever form, doesn't ask if we'd beg forgiveness - it skips over that as well as other things. It only asks if we would worship - whether alive or dead. Me, I said worship because that maximizes my chances to kill biblegod and his repulsive believers who make this world miserable.

I was fortunate enough to have lost my religion by the time I saw the movie Frailty because my agency-detection is sometimes over-active and, even though I didn't believe in any god, the movie made me wonder if he was talking to me, telling me I should be out there killing bad people. Then I regained my senses and shook it off - realized it was just my own tortured mind f**king with me. So, if biblegod ever shows himself to me he should expect me to do everything I can to kill him throughout all of eternity - or as long as I exist.

I am atheist but also vehemently anti-theist. I will be atheist if I have to kill every god to be one. And if they just keep coming back, I'll kill them again and consume them. If that makes me into god then I'll allow that one (me) to live. But only me. (Yes, I am getting therapy. We haven't even gotten close to this.)

But this is all just a massive pile of fetid speculation as evinced by the fact that few acknowledge that (as you pointed out) the atheists here have already pushed the blue button for eternal torture.

Logged

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

I don't agree with your position of anti-theism Samothec. It's very irrational. You have no means of knowing what type of a god any god would be should they exists. For all we know they could be worthy of worship, won't ask for it, don't need it, died off years ago, or whatever random combination our simple minds can think of. The point is that there's no point in being angry at something that doesn't exist. There's no point in being angry at something that may exist when you know nothing of it's attributes. Saying you will kill or attempt to kill every god you came in contact with is also irrational.

I can understand people who hate religion and what it does to this world. I can understand anti-theism to the point of not wanting religion to hurt people or take away our rights. I can even understand hating god/s if you believe them to be real. But I can't understand your position. I'm glad to hear you are in therapy for these things because I think you are wasting a lot of negative energy for no reason. You're aren't fighting a battle worth fighting.[1]

IMO the type of hate you have expressed is the equivalent of racism, or sexism. The only difference is you are feeling this level of hate at an old time imaginary friend who is better to be forgotten than hated. I sincerely wish you luck in your therapy, I don't enjoy seeing people struggle.

My stubbornness comes from my belief that people playing tough saying they would press a button that would result in eternal torture with NO POSSIBLE way to stop it is not honest of them. It's just ridiculous and not in any way indicative of human nature and self-preservation and really just completely stupid.

Judges 1:19King James Version (KJV)

19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

This is just one example of the Bible God’s weakness, if proven True. The Serpent in the Garden of Eden is another one. The hypothetical is if the traditional Bible God view of God is True, and those people believe the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says it and the Bible says it is True etc. with the circular logic.

Going by this, we also get to accept that God failed in the garden of Eden against the Serpent, and that God’s weakness is an iron chariot in Judges. Why is it possible for a Snake and a Man with an Iron Chariot able to go and fight God and defeat God, while we can’t? Think about that for a second.

You refuse to accept that THERE IS A POSSIBLE WAY to stop it, through defiance! It may be your hypothetical, but your hypothetical has loopholes in it. If you want to change my answer, please change your hypothetical, which you did in a new thread so I’ll go see what that’s all about.

Tell me oh wise one - what's the difference between trying to oppose the Nazis and trying to oppose a god? Take your time.

There is no difference, that’s the point! Those who say they’ll press the Red button and worship and follow God, really need to take another look at the Bible and take a look at similar events that Bible God has done in history. The closest thing that Bible God has done in the Bible that shows his character, in a historical context event, would be Adolf Hitler and the Nazi’s, coupled with Mussolini, and Joseph Stalin. So, those who really say they’ll bow and worship God, are in no difference to me, giving Hitler the heil Hitler salute, and will obey orders in the Holocaust, hoping to thwart Hitler’s evil plans, only to obey, just as many Nazi Officers claimed and tried to do in WWII.

So for me, in a real-life scenario, bowing down before God is just as bad or worse, than heiling Hitler. There is not much difference, if at all between the 2, which is exactly what I’m saying, so I think you meant what is similar between God and the Nazis.

Judah could not drive out the inhabitants because of their iron chariots. Biblegod has 'proven' he can level a city, flood the world killing everything on it, and consign his rebellious servants to hell. He is aware of individual suffering, as in the case of Job, and has no problems inflicting it even upon someone who faithfully serves him. If he leaves the job of torturing to flunkies, then we'd have a chance, but he has 'shown' that he is capable of exacting monstrous vengeance upon anyone. If that guy was proven to be real, I would not underestimate him and his abilities to inflict pain and suffering.

Tell me oh wise one - what's the difference between trying to oppose the Nazis and trying to oppose a god? Take your time.

There is no difference, that’s the point! Those who say they’ll press the Red button and worship and follow God, really need to take another look at the Bible and take a look at similar events that Bible God has done in history. [snipped]

There's a big difference. Known people, famous people escaped the Nazis. Ann Frank hid from them. The king of Denmark frustrated their efforts to collect the jews there. There were survivors of the Resistance. There were probably untold numbers of people who appeared to be complying with Nazi dictates, but who were secretly resistant. We know that the Nazis were brutally efficient, but the Bible, which defines the parms for biblegod, shows no one who escaped him. The bible claims that no one will. All will be judged. He is not some human bureaucracy, reliant on spies and snitches. IF you accept the premise, for the sake of the question posed, that the god of the bible has been proven real, and has then offered this choice, I don't see how anyone could hope to avoid or resist him.

EDIT: added after some further thought...Let's say that the Nazis and God are the same. That would imply that genuflecting and appearing obedient would be an option. As long as that red-buttoner did not actively obey biblegod's commands that would violate one's own ethics, one could survive and resist in any way one chose.

History is the judge. The Germans who appeared to accept the Nazi regime but who did not gas jews or gypsies, did not call the Gestapo on their socialist neighbor, or who listened to the BBC to try and get the other side of the story... these people, when the war was over, were judged to be no different than those that did no major crimes but who actually supported the regime. There was no way one could verify one's distaste of the regime.

Much older people I know continue to have a dim view of all Germans, of all Japanese and judge them all the same way. If biblegod's regime falls, the silent dissenters will be judged the same way by the victors. In my mind, that's a small price to pay for not having to burn forever in god's hell.

The (stated) consequences for pressing the blue button are far too grave as to be unimaginable. I would risk death, perhaps even torture, to take a stand I believed in. I will not risk eternal torment.

If you're accepting Biblegod, and worshipping it: you're begging for forgiveness based on defying it while alive.

Stating things like: I'll accept it and overthrow it in time -- that's stupid. I mean Hal has expressed how stupid myself and others are responding 'cause we'd choose hell yet you people actually think you can defeat a god when more powerful beings (angels) than you couldn't. I mean, what supernatural power would you have to do such a thing?

And we're the idiots. Please...hypothethetical rhetoric y'all are spewing.

Stating things like: I'll accept it and overthrow it in time -- that's stupid. I mean Hal has expressed how stupid myself and others are responding 'cause we'd choose hell yet you people actually think you can defeat a god when more powerful beings (angels) than you couldn't. I mean, what supernatural power would you have to do such a thing?

How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Sentient beings are going to choose what they think will make them the most happy or the least unhappy. There comes a time in life when you just have to accept things the way they are, and push that red button. It will make you the least unhappy. Your argument is along the lines of jumping naked off a cliff in rebellion against the laws of the universe, just because the laws of the universe state that you are unable to fly. Well boo fucking hoo, Nam. Boo fucking hoo.

Either play nice with HAL's hypothetical and push the red button[1], or . . .

Hal: In the poll thread, I choose the blue button. (Burn Forever) I believe that the red button (Worship) to be just another shade of blue.

If the gods of the bible were shown to be one god and exist, then it would be all knowing, as well as a cruel callous creature.

Being an all knowing creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not. So the red button (Worship) would not be an option. Which leaves us with the blue (Burn Forever). I made the choice (Though it’s not really a choice them both being blue an all) not because I’m a bad arse, but because I'm being honest to myself and at the same time telling this bible-god, I won't pretend to worship him so he can send me to eternal torture, anyway. I will go to my fate being able to hold my head high, and retain my dignity.

Anyhow with no stimuli, just pain in a few years, maybe months, I would be insane anyway. And the torture wouldn't matter, it would for all intents and purposes, lose its effect, It would become normality.The body may be there, but the mind would have left long ago.

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

Logged

We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12