Well, lately every Delco part I've bought either through the dealer or authorized Delco Distributor has gone bad within a few months. A Delco EVAP, a Delco Powersteering Pump that whinned immediatly, and now my Delco Water Pump has a very subtle droaning noise to it. Only 1.5 yrs old with 10k miles on that pump

I noticed a slight change in the engine sound/harmonics the other day(something no-one else could pickup) so I checked all accessories with a mechanics stethoscope and the water pump/bolts definitely are transmitting some harmonic noise. Not so much the pump housing because its probably isolated by the internal pump seal or somethng, and the block is silent where the bolts attach.

Someone once told me to see if the GM parts were still available when replacing any part as they are better than Delco like when my P.S. Pump failed. I think Delco P.S. Pumps are remaned anyway from Delco.

I'll have to check to see if they still make GM replacement pumps.

Does anyone remember seeing a post/thread about a guy who was discussing a different brand of a better quality water pump for a 4.9?

I thought it was here or maybe on the Fiero Forums. Can't remember but I think it was someone doing a 4.9 buidup and he named a water pump in his build/mod list and I had the the feeling that he was making a point that this other pump was better for some reason or rational.........................

So to add insult to injury, when the injectors were replaced, I decided to get a new Delco P.S. Pump to replace the original pump, and while everything was appart, why not replace the original GM Waterpump Too as the car has 89k ml.!

I also purchased a new Gates tensioner at that time but I didn't like the looks of it so it never was installed, but the original tensioner spring sprung this summer so the Gates went on after I called to inquier about the narrower body. Gate's confirmed that the tensioner has a better designed tension spring which is why its narrower. I'm now wondering if the original tensioner cause any stress on this pump which I also put on a new pump pulley due to an old issue.

I hate going by the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but it was the logical thing to do............

Well, I came up with my own therory of what happend. Either my problem was the "El Cheapo" A/C Delco Chinese Water Pump I bought at a local parts distributor, or a failing tensioner that made the water pump go bad or a combination of both!

I'm posting this link as I've included some good info there about tensioners as it appears that the Gates Tensioners are a very good upgraded design from the O.E. that is a sealed unit and utilizes a round spring vs. a flat spring design that is inferior in design in the aftermarket:http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...er-pulley.html

Just for the record for everyone to refer to.........This is what I've concluded in my research: Yes; A/C Delco makes Chinese entry level parts also to compete with the rest of the aftermarket parts and deceptivly use their name to pedal cheap parts to consumers through their distributors and parts dealers boxed with the A/C Delco Name! I got this from a very knowledgable customer service rep. at Rockauto.com and even from A/C Delco 800 customer service line, but of course not as candid as I state!

A/C Delco makes an Asian made pump for the 4.9's which is Delco #252-720/ gm#88926234 (this pump is considered an "All Makes" pump stated on their site and Delco said fits many years/models) and their next statement is that its Oversea's Manufactured! They also said since its NOT specifically designed for each application, there could be minor clearance problems on certain applications but will still work as a replacement) This doesn't make sence as I think the truth is closer that the Chinese Delco Pumps have poor quality control! Also this pump does NOT come with a lifetime warranty like the other aftermarket chinese pumps but all I can think of is the scene in "Tommy Boy" about the "Lifetime Guarentee on the box" analogy.

This is what it reminded me of when buying this cheaper "Quality" A/C Delco 1yr warranty pump. RockAuto sells this for $58.

A/C Delco also makes another pump that is available at the dealers and certain distributors, like Rockauto.com: Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 (this pump is noted as "OEM Design" and I was told by both Rock and Delco that this is a better quality North American Pump which could be made in U.S., Canada, Mexico and I'm sure we've all seen Delco stickers on their parts stateing these Mfg. areas which are their premium made line. This pump is $138 at RockAuto as Rock is a deep discounter of all parts including A/C Delco. I wish I would've known this important detail as I try to buy the best parts for my Eldo but always seem to run into some issue when doing so.......... So I went with the attractive lower price Delco Pump not knowing there was a quality difference. According to both Rock and Delco, they both stated: "you get what you pay for". Whatever But it would've been nice if they had a better description of each pump and difference in quality!

I've found that with many "High End Name Brand Products" in different industries that have a historically premium price attached to the "Brand Name" which is defined as a high quality item that you're purchasing. But in recent years, marketing experts found they could capitalize on their "Brand Name" and use it to produce lower quality items under the brand as intro. lines inorder to intice consumers into buying into the "Brand Name" but is usually made in China as the price is much lower than their High End line. ! Well..............got caught again on this one......

It's something to consider the higher priced pump since its somewhat involved to replace that pump, and the better pump can be bought $100+++ cheaper at Rock rather than buying the same better pump at the dealer.

Unless others can post here their success stories with other aftermarket pumps and how many miles are on them, it would be interesting to know who's pumps for this application are most dureable and reliable.

Now to my tensioner issue. I've learned a very valuable lesson and recieved a great deal of knowledge from a Tech at Gates. If you ever have a failed bearing in any of your belt driven componants, it's probably due to a failed tensioner and you can't go by the old O.E. imprinted scale on the tensioner to access it's condition as that was used for belt stretch but new belts do not stretch any more. Even if you don't have a failed tensioner, I would definitely advise everyone to replace your O.E. or older aftermarket tensioner as it wreaks a silent havoc on all drive accessory componants. I only wish someone would have advised me to do this earlier so I'm replacing every tensioner on all my cars now!

Over the past few years, I've had issues with shreading Goodyear Gatorback Belts every few years (10k miles) which was and indication of something wrong but all accessories looked aligned without any pulley damage. I had a new Delco P.S. whined terribly after the install but that had to be a bad pump. Although I left it on and it quieted down after 15-20 min. but it failed suddenly 9 months later.

Bad Pump or failing tensioner?????

I then had an alternator bearing fail on an original O.E. Alternator 1yr later (this summer) and this car only has 85K ml.

Age or failing tensioner??????

I wish I would've had the Gates tensioner put on when the injectors were replaced and every thing was pulled appart, but I was going to get a Delco Tensioner since the Gates looked so different but never did and now I think maybe if the Gates tensioner was installed at that time, my Delco P.S. Pump would not have failed, nor my alternator bearing fail, and finally the Chinese Delco Water Pump that is currently making a subtle droan.

Bad Water Pump or failing tensioner???????:

Again, the original tensioner was ran on the new waterpump for 9 mo before finally replacing the tensioner when the spring fractured inside and lost tension.

Here are 2 e-mails from Gates regarding tensioners and my suspicous belt problem which we now believe was an indication of a failing tensioner:

There is definitely an issue going on within the ABDS “system” if you are having edge wear / tearing on the belt.

Alignment issues within the system will cause the belt to track off center of the pulley / bearings. With that said, pulleys are designed to have the load carried in the middle of the bearing assembly. Moving that rotating mass pressure point is going to move the pulley / bearing out of its proper designed working parameter.

Misalignment can be from parallel issues to angular issues. Yes Gates does offer the laser alignment tool.Part number 91006
Tension issues can also cause this concern. If proper tension is not being held on the system, then the belt would
be allowed to walk inward and outward as the tensioner arm moved about.
Lack of tension could cause the belt to move in one or the other directions – as goes for excessive tension.
If the tensioner is faulty, this condition could co-exist.

The best advice is replace your tensioner if any doubt of its age.......as it can cause a range of harmonics transferred to the bearings of different componants through the belt from what I read in Gates Tech Info that I posted links to in the thread above........Gates even advises in their tech info to replace your tensioner at every belt change. I'd advice to replace it if you put on ANY new componant in the belt drive system if it hasn't been replaced recently: Alternator, P.S. Pump, W. Pump, A/C Comp.

Apparantly, a tensioner also plays a role to absorb "Shock/Harmonics" in addition to automatically tensioning the belt, much like a suspension shock absorber.

I wonder if this device actually prolongs the accessories in its design or is designed for convienience of driving the accessories with 1 belt and ease of changing the belt. Years ago there were no tensioners. Did the more flexible belts inherantly abosorb harmonics? Did componants last longer then? If so, better engineered componants or if not, the technology for the better made componants was not advance?

Just some random thoughts of a new engineered design of a tensioner that can create problems if it is failing. Who knew?

Hope many can gain from my experiances and make better informed decissions based on this info that I wished I had knowledge of.

Again, I'm interested to hear about ANY Water Pump failures including Delco, Chinese made Delco, or other brand of Aftermarket pump failures or non-failures and mileages on each pump to build some sort of reliability stats. on Waterpumps for all to read.

I had the expensive pump last time. It lasted a couple years before it started leaking and when I took it apart it was becuase the pump was rusted out. So now it has a cheaper one on it. I don't know what the price difference is with the two pumps at rock auto unless maybe one of them is a discontinued number and they are trying to unload them.

Brougham: wow, I can't believe it. I was informed and assured the more expensive pump would've been the best pump from AC Delco. As I stated above, both Rock and Delco said the cheaper pump is made over seas and Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 is an OEM Design and higher quality that is "North American Made" from vendors in (Mexico, U.S. or Canada)

Are you sure you had this Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 and could you ask where you bought it to confirm which pump you were sold? If it was leaking, then the seal went. If the pump rusted out, what coolant type did you use and mix ratio? Did you do a flush before you installed the Delco Pump? Also, did your radiator fail before the pump went bad or after? I'm just thinking of electrolysis which is an E.Z. test: http://www.usaradiator.com/informati...blemsMount.pdf

I'm disgusted with Delco over the past few years. So many bad parts. I wonder if these parts were sabotaged by many of GM's vendors who knew they weren't getting paid after GM filed for bankruptcy........GM put so many of their U.S. vendors out of business that they didn't pay which was criminal.

To: "the recluse" maybe you already knew everything above that I wrote but I'm sure many have learned a lot from what I posted. I've read this forum for 6 yrs+ now and never came accross the info I posted so I hope that it will help many as I would have been very appreciative to have read the same by another. I just like to document my experieces and research because many just post their advice without any documented evidence. I don't give a "Readers Digest Version" when I post but readers can make better informed decissions of what I do post.

I also found it strange that his pump rusted out. I've seen some new 4.X pumps that ship without being painted, but still never even saw those ones rust out. Quite interesting that Broughams rusted out within a few years.

It was the expensive one and came from a Cadillac dealer. I've never seen one rust either unless it was old. This one started leaking because it rusted under the paint so the gasket couldn't seal it. It started on the inside surface of the pump and moved out from there. It had the proper antifreeze mix and all that and the rad was never changed. My guess is that they changed suppliers or what they are making them out of to save money but are still slapping the Delco name on it with the jacked up price.

To: "the recluse" maybe you already knew everything above that I wrote but I'm sure many have learned a lot from what I posted. I've read this forum for 6 yrs+ now and never came accross the info I posted so I hope that it will help many as I would have been very appreciative to have read the same by another. I just like to document my experieces and research because many just post their advice without any documented evidence. I don't give a "Readers Digest Version" when I post but readers can make better informed decissions of what I do post.

chris

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate a good write up on parts; but in most cases something like that can be condensed and abridged (I did go back and read it). Something long winded like that will lose 98% of the people you're trying to inform.

Now to your argument on parts and their production...

It has long been argued by me, though not here, that parts and the companies that manufacture them, for the most part, fail to engineer a quality product for any cars over 10 years old.

Case in point with the rusting out water pumps, could it be use of an inferior steel (a Chinese staple for maximizing production costs); one say with less carbon or nickel? More iron content means faster oxidation means less expected functionality and can be produced with less beefy machinery.

Chinese parts have been the wave of the future for the past 20 years now, and have really taken off in the last 5 years or so with the US market going primarily oversees. Nobody really cares (as far as manufactures, I'm know as a consumer I do) if you have a gripe over longevity vs cost of parts. From a business perspective, they're all trying to get you for as much as they can by wrapping (anything) in a "brand name" anyway

So I apologize if I came across as a dick, and I understand just what you were trying to do, but it seemed pretty overwhelming and lengthy for the average joe

If they were repeats, which Mfg. pump did you use, if not, are those pumps you replaced still functioning and if so, which pump Mfg did you use and how many miles? Not sure if you can track those cars now.

I'm very curious if you had stray current attacking that pump body even with the proper mix. But you should have had a rad or heatercore go first. Test with the car off then with ALL accessories on including the break lights, flashers ect. What coolant type were you using and use now?

Very interesting info "the recluse" gave in metalergy of the foreign metal. Looks like its going to be hard to find a good pump mfg especially in the aftermarket who probably change aftermarket vendors often.

If I had my old good water pump and P.S. pump that I replaced as preventative maintanance when taking everything appart to do injectors, I put those old parts back on.

I hope many will post their success or failures of Water Pump Brands they used to gain some stats.

If they were repeats, which Mfg. pump did you use, if not, are those pumps you replaced still functioning and if so, which pump Mfg did you use and how many miles? Not sure if you can track those cars now.

Did not note mfg of said water pumps. One was for a 4.5 in a '90 Eldo I had, the end of that pump came when my wife wrecked the car 40,000+ after I had changed it.

Another was for the 4.9 in my present Eldo that I changed when the cooling system was letting go. The car had sat almost a year and a half and the sediment was bad in the block and radiator so I replaced ALL aspects of the cooling system as a precautionary measure.

I replaced the water pump again when I had to replace the headgaskets on the same motor some 30,000+ miles later. I did this because the motor was out and the $50 spent seemed like a good insurance policy. It was AC Delco.

The other WP's were in various other 4.5 and 4.9's over the years, so no known information to present, however, for quite a few years after the installations I had no go backs pertaining to those units.

Originally Posted by cadchris

Very interesting info "the recluse" gave in metallurgy of the foreign metal. Looks like its going to be hard to find a good pump mfg especially in the aftermarket who probably change aftermarket vendors often.

I believe that this is the reason why parts houses change their suppliers(or the same suppliers change their lines) at least every 5 or so years, it keeps them from having to honor "lifetime" warranties. This has happened to me on MANY occasions..."No, we don't carry that brand (or that line) anymore...so we don't/won't honor manufacturer "A"s warranty with manufacturer "B"s product (line)".

In the end I feel it's energy lost in a pursuit of knowledge when the seemingly obvious is that corporations are out to screw you and the only thing you need to know is that it's coming, one way or another....

Yehp, I hear you. The same happened to me on my 91 Brougham and I even had the invoice jammed in my glove box for 9yrs on this lifetime pump and I called them on it just for the hell of it since I was getting a lot of bad Delco which they were giving me a hard time on too!!!!!!!!!! You should've seen their faces! They were moaning, "this is a 9yr old pump" I said "yes with a lifetime warranty"! They hadn't carried Airtex for years and they said the same to me that they no longer carry the brand so I was S.O.L. But they know me well since we have a corp. account so I was pretty mad and didn't want their shitty house brand pump after I researched it but they were eventually willing to replace it with that house pump that I didn't wan't.

This has happened many times on a lot of parts so I always get in touch with the district rep which was AirTex in this case. I couldn't believe that the rep arranged a factory replacement to me in I think 1-2 days sent from the factory this summer. Easiest factory rep. I ever dealt with for warranty. From my conversation with Airtex, they have been overtaken by these parts buying groups that parts store belong to of Chinese Vendors,....something like that as I can't remember the details, but my parts house was part of this now for profit margin, so Airtex has been very easy for warranty their pumps directly and I'm sure even their whole line. Still not sure about quality but they give the assurance their pumps are better than most out there.

Thanks for the reply,
I'm hoping for some other's to chime in with good or bad experiences on different brands of waterpumps for these 4.9's.

I should have left the original O.E. Pump on that was still good with 89K miles!

I decided to call my parts distributor again, on that A/C Delco Pump they sold me last year because when I gave them the 2 part numbers, one for the N. American made Delco pump (#251-595) they told me they never had it in their system and said they only sold the cheaper Delco Chinese "WonTon" Pump (#252-720), so I presumed I was sold the cheaper pump that I posted above.

But NOW, they no longer carry any Delco Pumps! Hey: "the recluse", how about that?

The mgr there told me that everyone's getting rid of Delco because they are the worst for the Vendor to process warranty claims and the vendor ends up eating the part because Delco Reps make it as difficult as possible and want tons of paper work, customers reciept, and if purchased at wholesale for one's own use, no warranty! I've run into this even at the dealer and they have to fudge paperwork to get Delco to warranty parts! Unbelievable!

I've heard the Delco Dist. Reps go through and have each part tested and if it tests good, charge it back to the parts distributor. Almost looks like the Delco District Reps work on bonuses to deniy warrantly claims.

So I had them look up my invoice,..... and they infact sold me the expensive Delco Pump(#251-595) @ $140.

So that better Delco pump currently has a bearing failure with no fluid leakage so I presume the seal it still good, maybe......., and the pump has about 8K ml. which was installed in Aug. of 2010.

So it looks like "Brogham" had his expensive Delco Pump rust out and now mine with a bearing failure........I don't know who's pump to go with now? All aftermarket pumps will be Asian made as discussed previously except for the more expensive Delco# which is now starting to have a reputation.

Well sucks. I don't know what make the pump is I'm using now it was whatever the parts store had. It probably doesn't make much of a difference because chances are there is only one company actually making these things and every other company just buys it and throws it in their own box. I changed it back in the spring.
Funny you should mention the Brougham water pump because I did it on that car this year too. It was leaking after taking it out of storage. Between both cars the one on the Deville is actually easier to change.

HUF, which Delco part# do you have? Also, are there any other part#'s, production #'s or any other codes ect. on the box or stamped on the pump? Is there any indication on the box or pump of where the pump is made?

How much do you want for the pump? P.M. me if you want?

Also, what waranty are you giving on this pump?!!!!!!!

I'm going to track down the local Delco Rep. tomorrow?

I'm not sure what the hell to do? I wish I had the time and energy to come up with some modification to eliminate the factory pump, fabricate an external coolant cross-over in place of the pump, reconfigure a different belt and/or alternative drive belt route, and use one of those performance external inline electric coolant pumps like this one from Stewart:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EMP-E558AR/

Now that I came up with that "dream" I think maybe it was done but I many be wrong........I remember coming accross one of the Fiero Guys or someone here with a Cad who did a build up and showed photos and relocated the 4.9 Alternator to I think make room for a supercharger or something that the Alternator on top was in the way of. I'm sure this guy put the alternator where the A/C Comp. was and didn't use A/C.........or something like that. I'm now wondering if that guy also eliminated his factory waterpump in this project and used an inline electric pump.

I know for the Acura/Honda's there's a factory elimation kit for the o.e. pump and uses one of those inline electric pumps on the upper rad. hose which is a slick setup!

Anyone know what project I'm referring to on that 4.9 build up?

I'll have to go look.

If I have to go back with a Delco Pump, I'm wondering how flexible RockAuto is with their Delco Warranties since my local warehouses are being a bunch of jerks and upholding the 1yr Delco warranty policy. I'm thinking that Rock may have Delco by the balls and may give better customer service but I'd have to call and ask them how long past the Delco Warranty they'll replace the pump if it fails.