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So if you started with 'something' and if you opened up the bore as far as you could, and perhaps reduced the stroke, and used a titanium rod and a lightened piston, and balanced the bejeesus out of it and had full-pressure lubrication (maybe a dry sump setup using an external electric oil pump), and the right valvetrain and cam profile............well, why not?

So, sure enough, the geeks and nerds of the world can (perhaps successfully) argue that zero is a number, but to me it doesn't work. Zero is a place-keeper between positive and negative at best. So, na-na-na-na-na-na!

(boy, did I shoot this one off topic!)

__________________Treat it as you would an aircraft frame and you should have no problems. -Name WithheldThe Manual- "Just the manufacturer's opinion of how to put this together."- Tim "The Tool Man" TaylorPut down the wrench, and come out with your hands up!- Me!Wrench, Wheel, Wreck, Repeat...

Your thinking is much like the thinking of the romans, (who had not yet conceptually wrapped their heads around "0" when they created their roman numerals. The arabics however, who for the most part created much of our number system, used it and introduced it to the western world in the 12th century. The trouble you are having is that we are defining zero in its form as a word, which is a noun, which is in a way "something". Zero as an abstract concept however, is in fact very possible, and fulfills all the necessary requirements to be a number. Sorry about that...just felt joining in on that one.

__________________
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."-Frank Zappa

Zero as an abstract concept however... fulfills all the necessary requirements to be a number.

In my own defence- Terrorists, politicians, and lawyers all fulfill the necessary requirements to be considered human- and that don't jibe with me, either!

__________________Treat it as you would an aircraft frame and you should have no problems. -Name WithheldThe Manual- "Just the manufacturer's opinion of how to put this together."- Tim "The Tool Man" TaylorPut down the wrench, and come out with your hands up!- Me!Wrench, Wheel, Wreck, Repeat...

So, sure enough, the geeks and nerds of the world can (perhaps successfully) argue that zero is a number, but to me it doesn't work. Zero is a place-keeper between positive and negative at best. So, na-na-na-na-na-na!

Are you calling me a geek or a nerd?

In that last comment, you proved my point. You don't go from -1 to 1, you have zero inbetween.

Look at it like this: we use a decimal counting system, deci being latin for ten. Now, how many numerals are there? If you don't include 0 there are only 9. No, 10 is not the tenth number, it is the first number in the second sequence.

In that last comment, you proved my point. You don't go from -1 to 1, you have zero inbetween.

Look at it like this: we use a decimal counting system, deci being latin for ten. Now, how many numerals are there? If you don't include 0 there are only 9. No, 10 is not the tenth number, it is the first number in the second sequence.

Sincerest apologies to you John

Not necessary. I am enjoying it. Sometimes a thread is like a box of chocolates.

In that last comment, you proved my point. You don't go from -1 to 1, you have zero inbetween.

Look at it like this: we use a decimal counting system, deci being latin for ten. Now, how many numerals are there? If you don't include 0 there are only 9. No, 10 is not the tenth number, it is the first number in the second sequence.

Sincerest apologies to you John

Which term would you prefer?
-1 to 1? There's that place-keeper! 10? It's a number on it's own! the "0" is a component of that number.

And yes- dead wrong maybe, but a man's gotta stand on his beliefs!

__________________Treat it as you would an aircraft frame and you should have no problems. -Name WithheldThe Manual- "Just the manufacturer's opinion of how to put this together."- Tim "The Tool Man" TaylorPut down the wrench, and come out with your hands up!- Me!Wrench, Wheel, Wreck, Repeat...

You example, although mathematically incorrect, makes sense to you. But your justification is integer-centric.

Would you agree that a bearing clearance of .00000000000000000000000000001" is a number, according to your belief?

If so, you will have a heck of a time differentiating that dimension from zero.

Integercentric? And of course the above (minute) fraction is legit. But it's not zero, is it?

Gawd, this is fun!

You DO realize that at this point I'm saying most of this to drive you guys nuts, right?

__________________Treat it as you would an aircraft frame and you should have no problems. -Name WithheldThe Manual- "Just the manufacturer's opinion of how to put this together."- Tim "The Tool Man" TaylorPut down the wrench, and come out with your hands up!- Me!Wrench, Wheel, Wreck, Repeat...

... I also have a problem with Pie r 2. Pie are not squared. Pies tend to be round. Some cakes are squared... Bwahahahahahaha!

Sorry, folks. Had a rough week, need some cheap laffs!

__________________Treat it as you would an aircraft frame and you should have no problems. -Name WithheldThe Manual- "Just the manufacturer's opinion of how to put this together."- Tim "The Tool Man" TaylorPut down the wrench, and come out with your hands up!- Me!Wrench, Wheel, Wreck, Repeat...

Integercentric? And of course the above (minute) fraction is legit. But it's not zero, is it?

Gawd, this is fun!

You DO realize that at this point I'm saying most of this to drive you guys nuts, right?

Yes, we do. Trying to edguumicate regardless.

You have just provided information that proves you do not believe your own belief. You agree that that number (.00000000000000000000000000001") is not zero, but there is not a way on Earth to measure it - IOW, to differentiate it from zero (and if there is, add a few dozen more decimal places).

Therefore zero is a number. Proven by your own argument that it is not.

You have just provided information that proves you do not believe your own belief. You agree that that number (.00000000000000000000000000001") is not zero, but there is not a way on Earth to measure it - IOW, to differentiate it from zero (and if there is, add a few dozen more decimal places).

Therefore zero is a number. Proven by your own argument that it is not.

In all seriousness, I still only see the zeroes in your example as a placekeeper. The tangible number in the sequence is the "1", and the zeroes give reference to the decimal place. In my eyes, the zeroes could just as easily be replaced with various emoticons. The real problem lies in how I view the "value" of zero. It's, well- zero. Look, I know all the math-heads in the world consider it a number, and I'm not gonna argue with a mathematician. I just don't see it the same way I see a "countable" digit.

Although- I've gotta give you guys credit for trying to explain it to me! Thanks!

__________________Treat it as you would an aircraft frame and you should have no problems. -Name WithheldThe Manual- "Just the manufacturer's opinion of how to put this together."- Tim "The Tool Man" TaylorPut down the wrench, and come out with your hands up!- Me!Wrench, Wheel, Wreck, Repeat...

In all seriousness, I still only see the zeroes in your example as a placekeeper. The tangible number in the sequence is the "1", and the zeroes give reference to the decimal place. In my eyes, the zeroes could just as easily be replaced with various emoticons. The real problem lies in how I view the "value" of zero. It's, well- zero. Look, I know all the math-heads in the world consider it a number, and I'm not gonna argue with a mathematician. I just don't see it the same way I see a "countable" digit.

Oh, shut UP!!!

Although- I've gotta give you guys credit for trying to explain it to me! Thanks!

Do you see 0 degrees celsius as a null temperature? Or as 32 degrees fahrenheit?