Dull Dole vs. Slick Willie: A closer race than you'd think

In the following exchange, which took place recently at The Star-Ledger office in Newark, they discussed Bob Dole’s campaign, Pat Buchanan’s role at the convention and the GOP’s position on abortion.

BYRNE: I think that Dole is being pictured as a long-shot, as not a warm guy, as a guy that doesn’t stand for anything. And that sets the level of expectation so low that it becomes a real problem for Democrats, because he’s going to look better all the time. You know, it reminds me of the story I used to tell in campaigns about the guy who was in church, and the priest comes out and says, “Pat, have you been drinking?” And Pat says, “What makes you say that?’ And the priest says, “I notice you’ve been doing the stations of the cross backwards.” And Pat says, “I thought that fella was looking better as we went along.” And I think that’s where Dole is.

KEAN: Bob Dole is a genuine American hero. He is not articulate, but he’s running against a President whose problem is that he’s got the reputation of Slick Willy, so somebody who’s not that articulate, who is fairly blunt-spoken, may in this climate come across very, very well. A nominee always controls the debate and the convention, and it will be a real test of Bob Dole how he handles that convention and how he handles the platform. And he’s carved himself out another responsibility which no other nominee has ever undertaken. He will set the legislative agenda for his party and become the negotiator between the Congress and the White House. Nobody’s ever tried to do that as a nominee. To have one of the two presidential candidates deciding what legislation is going to reach the President’s desk, and in what form, is something brand-new in American history. How Dole handles that and the responses by the President could well determine the shape of the campaign to come.

QUESTION: How does he handle Buchanan?

KEAN: I would tell Buchanan, “This is my platform, and this is the way we’re going to run the party, and you can either be in or out. And if you are not willing to go along, then there’s the door.” I’d let him speak at the convention, but I would not give him prime time. I don’t think here presents enough of the party constituency to deserve prime time. What the Republican party believes and what Bob Dole believes is not what Pat Buchanan believes. Pat Buchanan is not a conservative; Pat Buchanan is a radical. You can have radicals within parties, but when it comes to conventions, when it comes time for the platforms, then the majority must rule. Radicals have to make their decision as to whether they’re going to be in or out of the tent.

QUESTION: What percentage of the party do you think is responsive to Buchanan?

KEAN: I think a very, very small percentage, if you take the overall party vote. In the primaries, where less than half of registered Republicans vote, that percentage sometimes seems much larger than it really is.

BYRNE: Yes. I don’t think it’s a question of how many Republicans may agree with Buchanan. I think the issue that we’re going to be faced with is how many Republicans who support Buchanan are going to vote for Dole, and whether there’s going to be some kind of a massive walkout. I think that’s their problem. I think that’s what they’ve got to contain.

KEAN: Well, it won’t be a massive walkout. He’s not going have a massive number of delegates.

BYRNE: No, I don’t mean a walkout at the convention. I mean a walkout on Election Day.

KEAN: Well, there’ll be substitutions. For everybody who walks out because Pat Buchanan didn’t get what he wanted in the platform, there are going to be a lot of people who walk in because they’re going to respect the courage Bob Dole showed in opposing the kind of extremism which Pat Buchanan represents.

The first election I remember was in 1948, when the Dixiecrats were pulling the Democratic party to the right and Henry Wallace was trying to pull them to the left. And, basically, Harry Truman and the mainstream Democrats said, “This is our platform, and if you don’t like it, leave.’ And they left. Had the Democratic party compromised with the Dixiecrats, compromised with Henry Wallace, I think we would have had Thomas Dewey as President. But the courage Truman showed in saying, “This is where the party stands. You guys are not in the mainstream; you’re radicals. If you don’t want to stay, get out,’ showed his character, gained the respect of the country and let the Democrats go on and win the election.

BYRNE: I was too young to remember that, but I sort of remember that in recent weeks Dole has been saying nice things about the other candidates, including Buchanan. He’s raised some interesting issues. I mean, he’s not saying, “Here’s the line, and I’m not going to go over it.” He’s saying, “It’s raised some interesting questions. There have been some interesting issues. We’re all together.” Does that sound like Bob Dole is going to draw a line?

KEAN: Well, I think everybody’s got to agree that Pat Buchanan has raised some interesting questions. The problem is that Pat Buchanan has the wrong answers to those questions. To say he’s raised interesting issues I think is absolutely right. To say those issues have got to be addressed by both parties is absolutely right. To say that there are Americans in these economic times who are in deep trouble has touched a chord. But the solution to that problems are not Pat Buchanan’s solution, and that’s what Bob Dole has said and I think that’s what Bob Dole’s going to continue to say.

QUESTION: What if Buchanan’s response is to try make a third party run?

KEAN: I don’t think he would. But if he did, he would underline his differences with the Republican party and allow Bob Dole to pick up the moderates he needs to win. Pat Buchanan’s support cuts both ways. He’s got a number of people who respond to him in the Democratic party who are listening to his ideas, because they concerns them. Buchanan’s constituency goes beyond the Republican party. But if Dole stands up for what he believes in and his whole life shows that he doesn’t believe in the kind of things that Pat Buchanan is talking about I think he’ll be the next President.

QUESTION: How does your party resolve the abortion issue?

KEAN: As you know, I don’t happen to agree with the way my party has come out on the abortion issue. I believe that it ought to be an individual’s choice. That’s not what the party platform has said. I think what’s more important than the party platform has been what Bob Dole has said. Bob Dole has said he thinks the party is certainly diverse enough for all people, for all points of view. He said that here in New Jersey, to Christy Whitman.

BYRNE: Boy, that’s taking a courageous stance.

KEAN: Yes, but that’s, after all, where the American people are on that question.

BYRNE: I think the American people want to say that abortion is something nobody likes, but it’s the right of every individual to make his own decision. And, if you’re accurately quoting Dole, he’s saying, “Well, this is not something that ought to divide the party, and let’s forget about this issue, and let’s go on to bigger issues of welfare reform or jobs or environment.” Why should we expect any more courage from him on any of those other issues? He hasn’t shown much more courage on any of those than on the abortion issue. In other words, isn’t the abortion issue almost a litmus test of the man’s guts?

KEAN: Well, in the first place, nobody is going to question Bob Dole’s courage or guts, and I think any Democrat who tries to do that has got to be sorely wounded in the process.

BYRNE: I’m talking about political guts. He was a war hero. That’s fine.

KEAN: He’s shown a lot of leadership. He’s probable been the best legislative leader of our generation, in any party.

BYRNE: At consensus building. Do we just want a consensus builder? Abraham Lincoln started off as a census builder, and he decided that wasn’t the way to go. Dole doesn’t have that much time.

KEAN: Bob Dole, I believe, can put together coalitions to support policy in a way that this President has had problems doing. Only by putting together consensus can he move an agenda forward. The great problem, as you know from working with the Legislature, is trying to convince others of your point of view, making compromises to move forward an agenda and eventually getting a bill that’s signable to the President’s desk.

BYRNE: That’s exactly right. KEAN: That’s what we haven’t been able to do.

BYRNE: You’re exactly right, except that Dole is missing step one, which is to have a point of view to begin with.

KEAN: Bob Dole is a leader. He has been praised for his skills by leading Democrats as well as Republicans. He can move his positions forward by putting together a cabinet of people whom both parties can talk to when they want to get something done, who understands the bottom line is to get an issue passed into law and not just to talk about it.

BYRNE: Right.

KEAN: And Bob Dole has the kind of confidence from both parties so that as President he would be able to move a definitive agenda forward. And that agenda will include the kind of things that this administration has been either unwilling or unable to do.

BYRNE: And with those tremendous skills, he ought to stay in the Senate and your party won’t let him stay in the leadership of the Senate if he loses.

KEAN: I don’t know that that’s true.

BYRNE: That’s what I’ve heard.

QUESTION: In terms of abortion, is there a logical out to give the convention the platform plank delegates will vote for? Maybe a pro-choice candidate for vice president?

KEAN: That would be something that he certainly could do, were there pro-choice candidates who want to run for Vice President. He’s obviously interested in Colin Powell. I don’t think that’s going to be the litmus test, how you feel on abortion. I think the litmus test is going to be I hope it’s going to be who he comes to feel would be the most qualified to serve as Vice President. I would be very upset if abortion was the litmus test one way or the other.

QUESTION: Wouldn’t you want to see the Republican candidate have a position?

KEAN: Bob Dole has a position. Bob Dole is firmly opposed to abortion. No question about it. He’s had a position on that for his entire legislative career. What he hasn’t articulated clearly is what the party’s position should be.

BYRNE: On abortion Dole has every position in the book. He just has to pick one.

KEAN: On abortion Bob Dole is probably a moderate.

BYRNE: A moderate. Well, that solves the abortion issue.

KEAN: The problem with abortion is that neither party is where the country is on the question. The country believes that abortion should be severely limited but not banned. They believe abortion is wrong, and they support parental notification, and prevention of abortion in the last trimester. They support limiting it but not banning it. A number of polls indicate that the states should have the ability to limit abortions. But people don’t want their right to choose limited by the federal government. That’s where the public is. Neither party is representing that point of view.

BYRNE: I understand that. I think what really is starting to worry people is how much Dole going to be pushed by the Christian right and the extremists on the Christian right. People look more at emotional issues than governmental issues when they’re picking a President.