Fedorov was perhaps the greatest 2-way player ever. The guy could make an all star team playing defense or offense. Unreal talent, would have never traded him unless you were getting a top teir forward to replace him

Best two-way player ever was Red Kelly, who may ironically be the biggest mistake the Wings ever made, in letting him go. Kelly went on to continue his brilliant career in Toronto, creating another dynasty, while the Wings became stuck in mediocrity.

It seems to me that the biggest "mistake" they made might have been cultivating a fan base that suffers from a massive sense of entitlement and lacks the ability to be grateful for the embarrassment of riches we've been provided.

"Our guys" have been handsomely paid for their services in Hockeytown, as well as rewarded with big games in important playoff moments. Not like these guys were interns all this time working for free.

This organization doesn't owe these guys anything. Veterans should be kept around if they can still play better than the younger guys. Players like Bertuzzi and Cleary don't deserve a permanent place in the lineup with total immunity. Yet, that appears to be what they have.

This is how I feel. If the old guys dont put up the stats, then they should sit. But Babcock cant just sit a guy Holland is paying 2 mil a year to play.

For a guy who was picked up on waivers, I don't think you can complain.

The Roy trade, I have seen before a list of what Montreal supposedly wanted, and it didn't include Fedorov, it was a bunch of depth players who would have been easily replaced. Look at what it cost Colorado for Roy (and Keane as well) - Thibault, Rucinsky and Kovalenko.

I'm going to throw in as my selection picking Keith Primeau with the 3rd overall pick in the 1990 draft ahead of Jagr. Primeau was a decent player who helped get us Shanahan in the end, but he was Jagr,

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

The loyalty argument is pretty hard to quantify in terms of effects. While it's easy to say that loyalty cost us when talking about Hossa, or whomever, it's a lot harder to say how much good it did in determining Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, etc. decisions to take less than market value on their new contracts.

Like everything else, the effects of the Wings loyalty are not really all that black and white. Which is a tough pill to swallow for those attempting to find a problem to point at.

Well said. I was trying to find a way to say exactly this without going on too long. You can't quantify the effects of loyalty without verbal confirmations.

For a guy who was picked up on waivers, I don't think you can complain.

The Roy trade, I have seen before a list of what Montreal supposedly wanted, and it didn't include Fedorov, it was a bunch of depth players who would have been easily replaced. Look at what it cost Colorado for Roy (and Keane as well) - Thibault, Rucinsky and Kovalenko.

I'm going to throw in as my selection picking Keith Primeau with the 3rd overall pick in the 1990 draft ahead of Jagr. Primeau was a decent player who helped get us Shanahan in the end, but he was Jagr,

ya but who would have known, it's like complaining that we (and 29 other teams) passed on Rinne for 7 rounds and Nashville picked him up in the 8th round... Who would know for sure what would happen?

im not talking about the past redwings teams im talking about the present , theres some guys here that shouldnt be here and are just here because of our loyal habits

teams need there draft picks to turn out to be nhl players now since the cap came into place and we seem to never give our kids a break and always keep filling up roster spots year after year with aging guys

did we really have to resign samuelsson??? didnt nyquist finally deserve a real shot?? tatar is in his 4th full season in the ahl for gods sake

i just think these guys should be inserted into the lineup here and there to blend in with the veterans like datsyuk,zetterberg,kronwall etc..

I dont think its gonna happen but what if jarnkrok makes the team next year?? thats gonna be what tatar nyquist andersson and jarnkrok all in the same year?? Knowing this team of late we'll probably end up trading nyquist and tatar at the deadline for a mid 30's player instead of giving the kids with some good potential a fair crack

The Franzen and Hossa debacle was the only thing I could consider awful. I don't understand the vitriol that the fans here give to Holland. Is it cause were not winning the cup every year in a league with parody? Cause if so, then you should be watching a different sport called Baseball. We retool and draft accordingly, we sign free agents as we see useful. Not getting Parise or Suter sucked, but what is Kenny gonna do when there isn't anything quality left in the position of need? Just being talented isn't the only things taken into account. Attitude, age, intensity, energy, cardio, skill along with cap space all factor. There are many others but it's not my expertise or else I'd be a GM. Just saying is all...

Problem with this team, and it's fanbase, IMO, is too much success. We've come to expect it. If we stumble a bit, we fans are looking to immediately dump the vets and bring in the young fresh blood. If we had that happen and they make their rookie mistakes that put the team in the same position win/loss wise, then we'd be calling for trades to get vets for "leadership". Kind of a good position to be in, either way.

I don't mind showing loyalty to the veteran Wings who have given us some good years, but I do mind these signings of older (mid 30s) middle-of-the-pack players like Samuelsson instead of bringing up the young guns like Nyquist. I'd like to see more of the young guys thrown into the deep end - give them experience and start establishing the future 20-something core of the team.

im not talking about the past redwings teams im talking about the present , theres some guys here that shouldnt be here and are just here because of our loyal habits

teams need there draft picks to turn out to be nhl players now since the cap came into place and we seem to never give our kids a break and always keep filling up roster spots year after year with aging guys

did we really have to resign samuelsson??? didnt nyquist finally deserve a real shot?? tatar is in his 4th full season in the ahl for gods sake

i just think these guys should be inserted into the lineup here and there to blend in with the veterans like datsyuk,zetterberg,kronwall etc..

I dont think its gonna happen but what if jarnkrok makes the team next year?? thats gonna be what tatar nyquist andersson and jarnkrok all in the same year?? Knowing this team of late we'll probably end up trading nyquist and tatar at the deadline for a mid 30's player instead of giving the kids with some good potential a fair crack

I notice a lot of people throwing this "4 seasons in the AHL" thing for Tatar. The only reason this has happened, is because he signed up with the big club the season after he got drafted. Most guys don't sign till after they turn 20.

Problem with this team, and it's fanbase, IMO, is too much success. We've come to expect it. If we stumble a bit, we fans are looking to immediately dump the vets and bring in the young fresh blood. If we had that happen and they make their rookie mistakes that put the team in the same position win/loss wise, then we'd be calling for trades to get vets for "leadership". Kind of a good position to be in, either way.

we cant just have aging vets on the team the younger kids have to come up and get experience from zetterberg ,datsyuk etc ... while there still here so they can then pass on the knowledge to the future kids we cant wait till those guys are gone or a year or 2 away from leaving

if we wait for that then we'll just have a bunch of rookies on the team and thats when the redwings will be a basement team for 5-10 years

I notice a lot of people throwing this "4 seasons in the AHL" thing for Tatar. The only reason this has happened, is because he signed up with the big club the season after he got drafted. Most guys don't sign till after they turn 20.

the fact is hes still been there for 4 years now and hes ready to play in the nhl so we can see what kind of future he can have .... i dont think he will crack the lineup but what if jarnkrok makes the team next season ?? nyquist tatar and andersson are all out of waiver options next year are we suppose to add in jarnkrok nyquist tatar and andersson all next year???

Unfortunetly i think tatar and/or nyquist will be traded by the deadline so we wont ever have to deal with that problem

i do hope holland comes to his senses in this case and buys out samuelsson next year and lets guys like bertuzzi miller walk ... the kids need to play

biggest mistake the wings have done in my opinion is being way too loyal to the veterans and past players instead of letting the kids play , it really bugs the hell out of me that we signed samuelsson in the summer and now hes only played 2 games and is out yet again with a damn groin injury(pretty sure he always had that when he was here )

tatar is in his 4th season in grand rapids , nyquist should of started the season in the top 6 .... guys like mursak,samuelsson,miller,bertuzzi they should all be gone

we cant expect to add in a bunch of rookies all in the same year , we have to gradually insert them into our lineup so they can learn from the veterans

I know tatar and andersson and probably lashoff will eventually all be back in the ahl but both tatar and lashoff as well as nyquist should be up

its time to get rid of the junk this team has and let the future get some games in

Something tells me that you are hot for Nyquist, perhaps a bit too much so. It's like, you think he is our future, even though he is relatively unproven at the NHL level. Can't quite put my finger on what gives me that impression.

Samuelsson, Miller, and Bertuzzi have all proven themselves. All three are tougher than Nyquist. It's not like we have a lack of small skilled forwards on the team.

Tim Thomas - Patriot and generally awesome human being.

Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.