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Hmm... dunno, personally I'm saddened by the fact KEY decided to devolve into an eroge company again, one would suppose that they were past that stage, but it'd seems the consumers weren't. I hope someone eventually gets out a patch for foregoing those scenes in the near future after the release.

The problem is basically how the market is designed: I don't exactly think it is possible for any company, be it Key, Alicesoft, Yuzusoft etc to survive without releasing eroge (except if you are like TYPE-MOON, milking horribly the same franchises for years).

Until things are as outstanding as Clannad or Air/kanon (as the last 2 definitely work well without the ero scenes), Key cannot afford releasing "soft" VN until they have special project (see Rewrite, as despite without any detail, chances it won't be an eroge are high. of course it is a speculation nevertherless).
I'm pretty sure there is some way to make a living with regular VN, but why would a company live on the hard way? The profit is required and it doesn't seem it is anything politically more challenging to add ero scenes so...^^"

As far as I understand your opinion, I do feel that "eroge" label doesn't "ternish" much a game as long as it is really solely on the plot and not some "PORN WITH PLOT" trend.
Even if it is badly written (who said Nasu? *cough*), I think they are rather easy to overlook (especially for CTRL key lovers )

Hmm... dunno, personally I'm saddened by the fact KEY decided to devolve into an eroge company again, one would suppose that they were past that stage, but it'd seems the consumers weren't. I hope someone eventually gets out a patch for foregoing those scenes in the near future after the release.

There is a "patch" already it's called the Ctrl key. Also, for your information Key never stopped being a eroge company. There were sex scenes in CLANNAD, they just didn't have the CG to accompany them

Maybe I should explain myself a little more so as to show why I don't really think the ctrl key is a solution. Certainly there is the case were the sex scenes are just tossed in a work in order to cater a certain market segment, as it has been the case with nasu's works and some of key's early games, however there is another fundamental problem apart from this one. From my POV, it'd seem both like the game producers are looking down on its audience and that they look down on their own game by thinking it won't sell well without ero scenes. LB was already more or less an all-ages game. It was because the game sales didn't meet their expectations that KEY chose the easy way out by tossing in some ero scenes (it is still up to the air whether they will be well woven into the story, however given KEY past work they will have to polish up their skills) to catter to the otaku ero lovers and to boost up their sales. *NOT* that this is a bad thing per se (a company is out there to make money, and if a certain strategy does the trick then why not?) but from an artistic point of view this is deplorable, and from a personal POV I feel insulted and disillusioned.

So what was the trick with CLANNAD? That both the implied sex was already there, and as such an integral and beautifully woven part of the story, and that it wasn't used either as a market device for boosting the sales, but as a plot element. it was thought from the start as part of the story, not as an afterthought. If it is a device that could easily be added into the story without it having any further repercussions on the overall plot its because it's something completely unnecessary from the POV of the work flow.

Humm... It is quite difficult to really consider if "doing so will be enough for these Otaku".
Considering the information given for EX, I believe that the marketing ploy is more difficult than what it seems to be.

If using the erotic side would be enough, I think Key wouldn't bother with the retcon of many girls scenarios. They show they are aware that several original scenarios were really lacklusters. IMHO, I think that if it was just a dumb stance for "resolving about that for these pitiful fans", they would barely do anything and just adding these "non get-able girls" etc.

I think it is actually a more difficult way, as they have to make the scenes having some "sense" and timing (mind you, they sure can drop random ero scene just like Utawarerumono *COUGH*). If they were doing some spin off such like Tomoyo After for Clannad, it would be far more noticeable.
To me, I believe that a remake of a game is anything but profitable, as there are much more risks than doing a sequel/spin off.
That is to say, we need to see the content and "updates", but if it is like Tomoyo After, I don't think Key lost their "touch" there, even if their stories don't really need these ero scenes (especially Kanon and Air).

Well, you have point there. As I said, whether this will all be a marketing ploy in the end or if its a real effort from KEY to close the LB project with a nice wrap and all is still up in the air. From my experience adding alien plot elements halfway is generally not a good idea (however several of the new elements in Ectsasy are something worthy looking forward to), but who knows, KEY may surprise us in the end.

generally H scenes in itself don't add or detract anything from the story, so i don't really see the problem here. Fighting over labels (eroge or non-eroge) doesn't really change the quality of the story in any noteworthy manner, nor has Key become a worse company by adding a few of those.

Saying that Key has "degraded" to eroge company carries a bit of prejudice, and is actually not very correct, seeing that Key has never ceased to be an eroge company to begin with. While Clannad was 18+ material free, Tomoyo After most certainly wasn't. (nor was Air and Kanon ... Planetarian is a bit different kettle of fish).

And if it actually helps them sell more of the games and get a bigger paycheck - all the better! Thay make a living from their job, and these games are produced with the intent of earning profit and means we will be seeing more stuff from them

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proto

From my POV, it'd seem both like the game producers are looking down on its audience and that they look down on their own game by thinking it won't sell well without ero scenes

I can't agree with this line of thinking. Is the added material (ignoring the fact they are adding much more to the content than just the ero scenes) somehow degrading the "values" of the story ? Or is it simply offensive to you ? While the importance and value of H scenes can certainly be questioned, their presence does not take anything away from the story or the relationship between the two people in question. Rarely, but they can also be used to advance/change the dynamics of a relationship. And more often than not in stories with decent plot and a developed romance it is but a next step in the relationship. While showing it adds questionable value, it doesn't detract anything for it either, which is the point you seem to be making.

Of course there are people who might want it solely for the fanservice reasons, but that isn't necessarily "bad" either. Market. Demand. Supply. Now this is just my personal opinion, but i think making such an argument involves more looking down on others than Key producing said material for whatever reasons they deemed appropriate

Or to basically sum my thoughts on the subject of H scenes up: what's the big deal anyway

Well, you are almost paraphrasing what I said though. I specified that the offensive part was on a personal level. That the ero ploy was efficient and almost desirable on a marketing POV, but that from an artistic POV it added nothing to the story, and that from previous experiences it was not well woven in the story, but just used as a sales boost.

On a best case scenario what you mentioned will happen: it will be a moot point that will add nothing, yet detract nothing from the story and it will remain all the same. It is regrettable for people like me who like well written and minimalistic stories, but it isn't bad per se like you described.

However that is just a best case scenario. Most of the times when this scenes are used as a marketing ploy it detracts from the story, cuts the flow and cheapens the characters. (Utawarerumono, Tsukihime, KEY previous works, <enter a random eroge game here with a 70% chance of success>. It ends up exactly being what I described in the first post: Something that lowers the value of the overall work.

How is this all related to LB? The fact that the ero scenes seem to be added like an afterthought makes me have my doubts about how integral they will be to the actual plot. Again, maybe I'm just being paranoid based on my previous experiences, however I certainly am wary of this particular aspect of the remake.

How is this all related to LB? The fact that the ero scenes seem to be added like an afterthought makes me have my doubts about how integral they will be to the actual plot. Again, maybe I'm just being paranoid based on my previous experiences, however I certainly am wary of this particular aspect of the remake.

I can see where you are coming from, but i wouldn't be all that worried in this case. For once they are adding more story elements besides the H scenes, thus they would be perfectly capable of slipping the scenes in there somewhere. And if you were satisfied with how the relationships played out in the original, i don't see how much of a threat a H scene can make. I can't account for personal dislike though, so i guess it remains pretty much opinion based.

I'm pretty sure there is some way to make a living with regular VN, but why would a company live on the hard way?

Of course there's a way. It's called console releases. There are many good original console-only games along with the all ages ports.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proto

LB was already more or less an all-ages game. It was because the game sales didn't meet their expectations that KEY chose the easy way out by tossing in some ero scenes

Actually iirc, Key said their plan all along was to release an all-ages first, followed by an 18+ version of LB. It's just debatable the time frame in which they chose to carry out this plan. (One year later seems a bit sudden, personally.)

I really can't imagine any of the other male cast for that... Kengo and Kyousuke are pretty much busy, while Masato is... well... one true love only: muscles

Haha. True. Guess Riki lucks out.

Edit: To add something, the only thing closest to perhaps what you want, Leo Otaku, in Little Busters would perhaps be Midori and Kengo, but it's complicated. And like I said, it is the closest thing in there. That or I need another run through in the game.