Video: Chris Matthews talks over Catholic bishop for four and a half minutes

posted at 6:49 pm on November 25, 2009 by Allahpundit

A must-see, even if it is a few days old. The question of how much influence the Church should have over Catholic legislators is sufficiently interesting to warrant sitting through the whole clip, but even if you’re not into that, watch from around 6:00 to 10:30 just for the sheer spectacle of this guy refusing to let his guest get a word in edgewise. Even as a veteran cable-news viewer, I’ve never seen anything like it.

As background for the discussion, the Pope’s flirted (and un-flirted) over the last few years with excommunication for Catholic legislators who betray certain “nonnegotiable” values of the Church with their votes. The last time it came up, as I recall, was when Pelosi visited the Vatican and people wondered whether she’d be denied communion. I’m sympathetic to Matthews’s broader point about not letting any faith dictate the content of secular law, but his specific point eludes me. What does he want the Church to do, simply look the other way while professed Catholics like Madam Speaker pass laws inimical to core teachings? Strictly speaking, they’re not dictating anything; all they’re saying is that you can’t protect abortion and be a Catholic in good standing. If that places a Catholic legislator in a bind, too bad. Religion either means something or it doesn’t, especially in a hierarchical outfit like the RCC. Those who don’t like it are always free to leave.

Exit question: At the risk of summarily Godwining this thread, does Matthews have any problem with Church officials who looked the other way in Europe in the late 1930s? I’m not comparing pro-choicers to that, merely wondering where CM would draw the line about when religious pressure on legislators is appropriate and when it isn’t.

Blowback

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Strictly speaking, they’re not dictating anything; all they’re saying is that you can’t protect abortion and be a Catholic in good standing. If that places a Catholic legislator in a bind, too bad. Religion either means something or it doesn’t, especially in a hierarchical outfit like the RCC.

I really couldn’t agree more. Having been and raised in RI, I have seen alot of Catholics like Kennedy. They pay lip service to the Church, they do whatever they like, and they show up to church and partake of communion. The day of having bishops hold these people accountable to church teaching is way overdue.

I don’t subscribe to Catholic theology in all cases (which is why I left the RCC), but the RCC has their morality right with respect to abortion (IMO). However, for Catholics this is the program; get on board or get on out.

To understand Matthews’ approach to argument, it helps to remember that he went to a Jesuit college. He is old enough to have been formed in the “old school” of rhetoric. In its excessive form, it basically amounts to the verbal bludgeoning of an opponent. At times the subject can change to the point where the inquisitor has its object completely disoriented. He is also of an age group of Catholics who anger issues over some imaginary baggage attributed to a traditional Catholic upbringing in the 50s and early 60s. This interview, for him, was less an opportunity to be a journalist (God forbid!), than it was an excuse to vent that anger. To anyone already sympathetic with him, their perspective is vindicated by watching the Bishop’s predicament. To anyone who simply wants to, uh, you know, watch the news, Matthews made an ass of himself.

Under the circumstances, Bishop Tobin did rather well. I’d love to see Matthews try his tricks on Father Joseph Fessio, a Jesuit who’s not ashamed to be Catholic. Fessio would make quick work of Matthews.

I must admit I’m a bit floored that catholics actually admit they think Jesus had to be born again, which means he was sinful before john baptized him. That truly is crazy.

I wish you guys would be more open with this stuff, it would save evangelicals a lot of trouble, because then people would see that you guys truly do have a completely separate and unbiblical religion.

What does he want the Church to do, simply look the other way while professed Catholics like Madam Speaker pass laws inimical to core teachings? Strictly speaking, they’re not dictating anything; all they’re saying is that you can’t protect abortion and be a Catholic in good standing. If that places a Catholic legislator in a bind, too bad. Religion either means something or it doesn’t, especially in a hierarchical outfit like the RCC. Those who don’t like it are always free to leave.

Yeah, on one hand I tend to think that the Church is being goofy by making this kind of ‘excommunication’ a PR stunt. It seems like they’re trying to make a political statement, which I don’t feel is an appropriate role for the church. Especially if they wish to retain their tax-exempt status.

But that’s the smaller point. The bigger issue is that if someone like Pelosi is pro-choice, then they should probably find a religion that accepts that worldview. I don’t really understand why Pelosi et al want to have their cake and eat it too. If my religion made demands of me that I believed were unfollowable, unethical or unfair, I would find myself a different religion.

He needs to stop watching Olberman clips. CM is talking at his rhythm.

It is true many pro-lifers do not have the heart to say a woman who gets an abortion should go to prison. This is due to the sad situation many woman find themselves in. They view the child as a burden and not a gift.

The pre-Roe world states controlled the issue. Some states allowed and some states did not. In that world we the voters can decide for ourselves. What the left does not like is that in most cases we the voters would say NO.

That having been said, it is not necessary to be Catholic to oppose abortion (all sorts of religious people as well as many atheists do). It’s a matter of simple human rights. If we’d had the ultrasound technology in 1973 that we do today, am convinced Roe v Wade would never have passed.

Even today, of women who see an ultrasound of their (even first trimester) child before having an abortion, somewhere close to 90% decide against abortion.

He needs to stop watching Olberman clips. CM is talking at his rhythm.

It is true many pro-lifers do not have the heart to say a woman who gets an abortion should go to prison. This is due to the sad situation many woman find themselves in. They view the child as a burden and not a gift.

The pre-Roe world states controlled the issue. Some states allowed and some states did not. In that world we the voters can decide for ourselves. What the left does not like is that in most cases we the voters would say NO.

sjramos on November 25, 2009 at 10:36 PM

100% agreed. Pro-life feminist Frederica Matthewes-Green famously said that a woman wants an abortion like an animal, caught in a trap, wants to gnaw off its own leg.

And on that note, if someone reading this (female or male) is regretting an abortion decision, there is free, confidential help available for you. Start here:

You are completely pure, Mary,
You are completely pure, Mary,
And the stain of original sin is not within you.
And the stain of original sin is not within you.
You are the glory of Jerusalem.
You are the joy of Israel.
You are the honored of our people.
O Mary.
O Mary.
Virgin
MotherIntercede for us with Lord Jesus Christ.

People don’t want to declare abortion as murder because it begs the question about penalties. To be consistent, the penalties for killing an innocent human being should be the same across the board. We need to start really thinking. They didn’t in Europe in the 30′s and look what happened.

Mary, of course, was sinless according to you. I guess that’s why you have more prayers to her than to Jesus.

TTheoLogan on November 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM

Nope, prayers to God come first. [Actually, every "prayer" (shorthand for "request for prayer from") to Mary produces a prayer to God also.] Since those in heaven ARE aware of our struggles on earth (read Hebrews chapters 11 through 12:5 or so), since Jesus Himself lives to make intercession for us (Heb 7:25) and since no disciple is greater than his master (Matt 10:24-25), what makes you think that those holy souls in Heaven, closer to God than any person on earth and therefore most zealous for our sanctification, aren’t praying for us all the time?

Those in heaven aren’t cut off from the One Vine (John 15); we remain related – some saints on earth, some in heaven, all related – one family in Christ.

BTW: as you know, Matthew 10′s talking about getting persecuted:

“No disciple is greater than his master, and no servant than his lord.
25. “It fulfills the disciple to become like his master and the servant like his lord. If they call the master of the house Beelzavow, so much so the children of the house.

This is why I never worry when another Christian calls me, a Catholic Christian, demon possessed, under the influence of demons, or going to Hell for being a Catholic, or some much less serious insult. My Master got worse, so just because anti-Catholic Christians claim “doctrines of demons” doesn’t make it so.

Horribly truncated but am heading out of town and already late. Will pray for you.

I wish you guys would be more open with this stuff, it would save evangelicals a lot of trouble, because then people would see that you guys truly do have a completely separate and unbiblical religion.

TTheoLogan on November 25, 2009 at 10:27 PM

Their Bible is the same as King James with the Apocrypha added. It is never wise to attack without facts.

I keep waiting for someone appearing on these shows to use this example. It’s a nearly perfect analogy. I also wish they’d point out that Dred Scott was established law at one point too. Or even better: Bush v. Gore. That one usually makes their head explode.

On that I’d disagree. I’m pretty sure Catholic teaching always said Jesus was free of original sin. If I’m wrong…Well then I just learned something. Don’t think I am tho.

JetBoy on November 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM

You were correct. Jesus is God and He is like us “in all things but sin” — Jesus was always free of original and actual sin.

Mary’s just a bit different. She’s only a mere human being. But – just as there are two ways to save someone from falling into a pit – to dig them out after they fall, or to protect them in advance from falling in in the first place – there are two ways to protect them from sin. God protected Mary in advance from sin – Jesus’ sacrifice was applied in advance by God because God is the Lord of time and is not bound by it.

Reread Exodus 25 and 35 – extremely detailed instructions by God for preps for the Ark of the Old COvenant, which would house the tablets for the 10 Commandments. God wanted the Ark to be absolutely perfect. These instructions were repeated TWICE, emphasizing the point.

Who here thinks that God considers the New Covenant (Jesus, aka God Himself in the flesh) less worthy of a perfectly clean vessel than the old one?

This is why Mary is called the Ark of the New Covenant, BTW.

Mary’s sinlessless is a total gift of GOd, and it honors Jesus, not Mary. Because she is merely the vessel. The one being honored by the clean vessel is the Lord.

“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” is a general axiom and doesn’t mention the exceptions to the rule we all agree on, namely, babies or very young children. And and it also doesn’t apply to Mary.

The angel Gabriel confirmed this when he addressed her as “kecharitenome” (sp?) in Luke 1:28 – Greek for “absolutely filled to the brim with grace – a perfection of grace, no room for sin.

That’s what Alberto Cutie did when he realized he couldn’t keep his priestly vows. Now he’s Episcopalian. Then again, I haven’t heard his name mentioned but maybe once since he formally left the Church. Some people need attention, which is in large part why they stay and defy.

I wish you guys would be more open with this stuff, it would save evangelicals a lot of trouble, because then people would see that you guys truly do have a completely separate and unbiblical religion.

TTheoLogan on November 25, 2009 at 10:27 PM

I’ve given you nothing but Bible verses. It is truly a shame, my brother or sister in Christ, that your anti-Catholic prejudice prevents you from seeing that.

BTW, luke 3:16, among other verses, clearly distinguishes between water baptism and being born again. Born again also requires repentance. I’d be interested to see people do that at 30 days old.

TTheoLogan on November 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM

Luke 18:15-17: Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

THe bible says that we can know GOd and know that we are going to Heaven in the end to be with Him. Hell is that place where God hides His existence from the mind of man eternally. Heaven is the place where there is no barrier between you and GOd ever again. The Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay our debt for our sin. And Jesus died and rose again proving His forvigness is real. WHen one accepts God and agrees with God that he/ she has sinned and needs God to save Him, God will never cast that person out.

To me it’s simple. The sad part to me is I have to sit here and watch people laugh it off or dice it up to make it work. We are all gonna meet our maker. I wish you could all come with me.

Except when it comes to the sinlessness of Mary, of which there are none.

Question: How can the mother of the living God be tainted with original sin herself? Lule 1:42–”Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” Care to comment on that?

JetBoy on November 25, 2009 at 10:29 PM

It is an incredible stretch to use this verse to claim that Mary was sinless. She was indeed blessed, as was the fruit of her womb, but they cannot be considered equal in terms of their righteousness. I am blessed to have been saved by God, but that doesn’t put me on equal footing with Christ because He too is ‘blessed.’

Sin is passed through the father (Heb. 7:8-10) and this is why Jesus’ mother being human in every way does not taint him.

Who calls Mary the “Ark of the New Covenant?” The same people who contrived her immaculate conception, and none of them were Biblical authors.

I know that debating Catholics on this point is futile. Continue to spin it how you will.

I must admit I’m a bit floored that catholics actually admit they think Jesus had to be born again, which means he was sinful before john baptized him. That truly is crazy.

I wish you guys would be more open with this stuff, it would save evangelicals a lot of trouble, because then people would see that you guys truly do have a completely separate and unbiblical religion.

TTheoLogan on November 25, 2009 at 10:27 PM

21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

What is your explanation for this rite? I don’t think Jesus needed purification, but, Jesus was baptised with the Holy Spirit before the Father. He had some purpose. What do you think it is? I don’t feel up to saying He didn’t have to do what He did. In fact I think I remember Peter got told to get behind Him for that presumption at one point.

If we believe that Christ was the Son of God and this was demonstrated at his baptism, are we separate of Scripture?

Except when it comes to the sinlessness of Mary, of which there are none…It is an incredible stretch to use this verse to claim that Mary was sinless…I know that debating Catholics on this point is futile. Continue to spin it how you will.

It’s indeed useless to argue with a guy who says he has been given no examples, is given an example, and then declares it doesn’t count.

Am kind of sorry we’re talking about Mary because it sounds on this thread, not having discussed another doctrine yet (not for many months, for me, anyway), that Catholics have Mary as the center of their faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus is the center, the Author, the Rock and finisher of our faith. But teachings about Mary differ more between various denominations than some other doctrines like the Trinity or the existence of Heaven or salvation being a total free gift of God’s grace (yes, Catholicism teaches this too).

That said, we do happen to be talking about Mary so:

She was indeed blessed, as was the fruit of her womb, but they cannot be considered equal in terms of their righteousness. I am blessed to have been saved by God, but that doesn’t put me on equal footing with Christ because He too is ‘blessed.’

I don’t think any Catholics misrepresented Catholic teaching above so will just say am sorry you apparently misunderstood, or am sorry I didn’t make it more clear. Jesus and Mary could not be on more UN-equal footing. He is Lord and God and she is a mere human being, able to do NOTHING on her own, just like the rest of us. She too was saved by God’s grace, like all the rest of us(she said, recorded in Luke, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior!” What Catholicism does teach (based on the biblical evidence – pls see above) is that because of her unique role as the mother of the Lord (see Luke Chapter 1 – the title “Mother of God” BTW honors JESUS, it does not honor Mary, because it asserts that Jesus = God) she was preserved by God from original and actual sin, in order to fulfill her role as a perfectly clean vessel, despite being just human, to carry and help raise the Second Person of the Trinity come in the flesh.

I am willing to rethink if you fish eaters can answer this….Was she the Father? Son? Or Holy Spirit?

Enlighten me and with verses to back it up please. Not snarky or looking for a fight. Just want to figure out why you do hail marys and all that stuff.

proudteadrinker on November 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM

I’ll hit ya with a good vid if you have a few minutes…from a YouTube friend, Steve Silvia, who has produced some of the best Catholic educational vids I’ve seen. This one regards the Catholic position on Mary:

Kennedy and Matthews are both wrong. That Bishop has it exactly right — your faith must inform your politics, not the other way around. As he put it, the moment your job interferes with your relationship with God, or God starts getting in the way of you doing your job, you have the wrong job, or you are doing your job the wrong way.

I am willing to rethink if you fish eaters can answer this….Was she the Father? Son? Or Holy Spirit?

Enlighten me and with verses to back it up please. Not snarky or looking for a fight. Just want to figure out why you do hail marys and all that stuff.

proudteadrinker on November 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM

None of the above. In the Middle Ages before the Protestant schism, the Church punished worship of Mary as heresy.

Catholics interpret the examples of Enoch, Elijah, Elisha, the appearance of the ghost of Samuel to Saul the vision of Christ with Elijah and Moses, the parable of the poor man taken to heaven and allowed to see the rich man in hell, the vision of Stephen at his martyrdom, as examples that the dead do not disappear. We believe the Bible teaches that as extreme favor, the persons of the dead may stand and speak with God now, today, before the day of judgment. The human recipients of this grace are the saints. Their direct interaction with God is the “communion of the saints”. And we further believe that requests from us to saints, for the prayer of the saints to God, are effective and lead to a group prayer. Mary is chief of all the saints.

We do not ask Mary for her own power. We ask Mary to add us to her own constant prayers to God. And by admitting that Mary is still awake in Christ through the power of God, we perform an act of faith before we mention any particular wants.

Ye must be born again
THe bible says that we can know GOd and know that we are going to Heaven in the end to be with Him. Hell is that place where God hides His existence from the mind of man eternally. Heaven is the place where there is no barrier between you and GOd ever again. The Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay our debt for our sin. And Jesus died and rose again proving His forvigness is real. WHen one accepts God and agrees with God that he/ she has sinned and needs God to save Him, God will never cast that person out.

To me it’s simple. The sad part to me is I have to sit here and watch people laugh it off or dice it up to make it work. We are all gonna meet our maker. I wish you could all come with me.
proudteadrinker on November 25, 2009 at 11:19 PM

I am because He died foe me..

They cannot explain the fact in Luke 23:42-43, the thief on the cross with Christ who said “remember me when You enter Your kingdom” and Jesus replied “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise”.

I am willing to rethink if you fish eaters can answer this….Was she the Father? Son? Or Holy Spirit?

The Catholic Church does not and has not encouraged folks to take their attention or prayer off of or away from Jesus. The confusion on the part of most non-Catholics stems from a misinterpretation of what is truly happening when a Catholic invites Mary (and/or the saints in Heaven) to pray to Christ on their behalf. There are different natures of prayer. Prayer to God includes worship (that He is obviously due).Prayer with Mary and the saints includes honor, not worship.
I’m always amazed at people who see something wrong with honoring Mary, mother of Christ. Christ understood her worth and it should be noted that with the coming of Christ, the role of women in society changed forever for the good.

Sin is passed through the father (Heb. 7:8-10)and this is why Jesus’ mother being human in every way does not taint him.
Who calls Mary the “Ark of the New Covenant?” The same people who contrived her immaculate conception, and none of them were Biblical authors.

I know that debating Catholics on this point is futile. Continue to spin it how you will.

Grafted on November 25, 2009 at 11:21 PM

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Enlighten me and with verses to back it up please. Not snarky or looking for a fight. Just want to figure out why you do hail marys and all that stuff.

proudteadrinker on November 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM

The Hail Mary starts with a medly of scriptural quotations — evoking both the angel’s greeting to Mary and Elizabeth’s greeting thereafter: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.”

Those quotes come from Luke.

Following that is the closing phrase “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”

This prayer (for that is what it is — a beseeching to another entity) is a request for intercession.

Catholics believe that intercession is possible — that God hears and can answer our prayers for another. When you say “Pray for me”, you are asking for intercession by another.

Catholics believe not merely in a Final Judgement but in individual judgements upon death. This means that those who die are judged immediately, and receive their just rewards from God at that time. There is no “suspended animation” or “shutdown” endured by these people. For the Chosen, they are already living their eternal life with God in Heaven. This position is born out in scripture for exactly one person, a thief, when Jesus says (in Luke) that ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise’

Catholicism takes this and reasons that all individuals, including the two thieves hung on their crosses with Jesus, are subject to an individual judgement.

Among those subjected to individual judgment, must be Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Since she has eternal life, we can plead with her to offer intercessory prayers on our behalf to God.

A hard core evangelical would find great fault with our tradition — it isn’t in the scripture, is it? But for our tradition in this regard to be false, one of two things must be:
a) The concept of an individual judgement is false, or
b) Mary does not reside in heaven.

Indeed, the question becomes: Would God assign Mary to hell or to the heavenly equivalent to a shut down hard drive, when he has given immediate salvation to one of the thieves on the crosses around him?

Who calls Mary the “Ark of the New Covenant?” The same people who contrived her immaculate conception, and none of them were Biblical authors.

Something solid to read on this subject below. You may say we Catholics “spin it how” we will..yet spinning goes both ways. I can show you teachings after teachings with scripture back-up, yet you can spin your own denials. Comes down to Faith, you either believe it or you don’t. Personally on my day of Judgement, I’d rather have God ask me “why do you believe” instead of “why don’t you believe”.

…in order to fulfill her role as a perfectly clean vessel, despite being just human, to carry and help raise the Second Person of the Trinity come in the flesh.

Off to my family out of town, for reals this time :) . God bless..

inviolet on November 25, 2009 at 11:35 PM

Appreciate your thoughts, inviolet. Would just like to put a finer point on your description of Our Lady as a perfectly clean vessel. While she was that, that is only the beginning of her role. Entire books have been written about her role in salvation history by great saints such as Louis de Montfort and St. Bernard, a Doctor of the Church. I can’t even hold a candle to these holy men, but please bear with my effort to just scratch the surface. Recall that in Scripture, we see her conversing with the angel Gabriel in profound depth, and then using her free will to assent to God’s great plan to bring the Saviour into the world. We see her again at miraculous his birth, and at the presentation in the temple when Simeon foretold His suffering, and her suffering with Him.
Next, we see her asking Him how it is that for three days she and St. Joseph had searched for him while he was in the Temple with the Elders. We are told that Jesus replied to her, and she “kept all of these things and pondered them in her heart.” We see that she even precipitated an earlier start to our Lord’s public life than He had planned through her request at the marriage feast of Cana. Follow her also to the Way of the Cross, the Crucifixion and burial. And who do you think He appeared to first, even if such a sublime meeting is not recorded by the authors of Holy Scripture. Perhaps such a Mother and Child reunion was just for them. Anyway, Blessed Mother was a true Mother to Jesus in the most profoundly human way and she co-operated in His plan of redemption for us throughout our Lord’s life. Speaking of Our Lady as just a pure vessel seems to imply (although I don’t think that is the intent) an inanimate object or person. In fact one of the best acknowledgements of the Blessed Mother’s role in Christ’s life and in all of our lives can be found in the simple yet beautiful Litany of Our Lady, also known as the Litany of Loreto.http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/maryd6f.htm

Patrick Kennedy, Chris Tingle, Biden, Pelosi, Kerry et al should join the Unitarians. That way they can pick and choose their likes and dislikes cafeteria style. We have a name for them – Catholics In Name Only – (CINO). We just wish they’d leave but they stay thinking they’ll change 2000 yrs of doctrine to fit their own ideology. THeir arrogance knows no bounds. They know little of their faith else they’d know that Catholic teachings can’t be changed under any circumstances. Even the Pope doesn’t have that authority but thereagain they’re DemoRATS.

Please leave Patrick Kennedy, and take your CINO relatives and friends with you as we’re sick and tired of your ugly public potshots, at the Church and our Bishops.

So, Chris Matthews, the translucent and monochromatic leftist TV show host may believe that people will laugh at me for stating that moms who murder their children should be tried for murder. BUUUUT in 3 out of 4 mock trials Eric Rudolph (who blew up at least one abortion clinic that we know of) was acquitted of murder.

Hey AP, could you do me a favor and link to Matthews’ interview of Rev. Wright? You know – the one where Matthews delves into Wright’s anti-American and anti-semitic statements and grills Wright over his relationship with Obama and speaks really condescendingly to him and constantly interrupts him and never lets him finish a sentence and does everything in his power to make Wright look like a fool? Oh, Uhhhhhh…. Wait a minute – Nevermind…

AP You are right on target with the charges (proven false) that the bishops looked the other way in the thirties being a danger now. With Obamacare they neglected to deal with the issues of subsidiarity, death panels, and privacy, and gave their default concern about abortion along with the seeming approval aafter the abortion amendment, for Marxist atheism to control every aspect of our lives. One can’t forget the $7.5 – $15 million that found its way from the poor donations into ACORN by the USCCB. Nor can this Catholic ignore the Marist Liberation Theology that ran rampant through this Church a few years back until JPII stopped it. Nor can one forget the quote of Paul VI who said, “The smoke of Satan has entered the tabernacle.” after these leftists sought to replace the Church’s prime charter of being in the business of the salvation of souls with secular justice and peace at the end of an Uzi in Nicaragua and Latin America.

Kennedy and Matthews are both wrong. That Bishop has it exactly right — your faith must inform your politics, not the other way around. As he put it, the moment your job interferes with your relationship with God, or God starts getting in the way of you doing your job, you have the wrong job, or you are doing your job the wrong way.

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2009 at 11:46 PM

Catholic politicians will give up the church before they give up their careers. The Church can succeed in getting unanimity on its position, but given that it opposes abortion from the point of conception, even in cases of rape and incest, it could end up with very few practicing Catholics in elected office.

allah,
The story of the RCC and Nazi Germany is as complicated as the story of German citizens and Nazi Germany. Your comparison is way off. They didn’t look the other way in some cavalier fashion any more than the average German did, or FDR did. From what I read, the Pope “looked the other way” after years of persecution of Catholics.Catholics in Nazi Germany

If the Bishops have to save their flock in spite of themselves, so be it, especially since we believe in this truth of the Eucharist:
For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 1 Cor 11:29

As for the sinlessness of Mary, if you don’t believe that, then how can you believe Jesus was FULLY MAN *AND* fully Divine?
Jesus inherited his humanity from Mary, as we inherit ours from our mothers. If Mary was tainted with Original Sin, then He would be also. She was FULL of grace. This doesn’t mean she didn’t need a Savior – she just needed Him to save her before she fell into the mud puddle of sin, whereas we need Him after.

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Look to the treatment of the Ark of the Old Covenant to see why this is significant.

It’s really amazing that a story about a so-called “Catholic” commentator vs. a bishop on the subject of abortion boils down for some protest-ants to a rant against Mary!

It is amazing that they will admit Jesus is True God and True Man, but seem to forget the very 1st Commandment: “I AM a jealous God and thou shalt have no other gods before Me.”

Well, no one, ever, in the history of Catholicism has claimed that Mary is God or a goddess. But as the Mother of Christ, she has by the early Christians been honored as Jesus’ Mother and given the title “Mother of God.”

Now I don’t know about everyone, but as a human being, I, too, am jealous. And the first thing I am jealous of is my mother’s honor. I come from Brooklyn and if you insult my mother you are going to find a fist in your face.

Why do you protest-ants not see that Jesus as True Man feels the same way about His earthly Mother? What part of honor do you not understand? When you call Her a “sinner,” you are denigrating the Woman who gave birth to your God! Your “jealous” God.

We all must make choices, but I sure will take the safe path and not dishonor Mary rather than annoy Jesus. My advice for any protest-ant (and that’s what you are doing, protesting which is rebellion against all Christianity stood for and what the early martyrs died for) is if you don’t have something nice to say about Mary, than don’t say nothin’ at all. For She is, under Christ’s last will and testament, our Heavenly Mother. The Queen, who as He is the King of Israel, sits at His Right Hand (for these same protest-ants quote Scripture but never understand it in the light of Jewish tradition).

I would rather be like the Blessed Apostle John (and here protest-ants neglect the fact that John’s mother, Salome, is at the Cross when Christ speaks and what that means in Jewish tradition) and take Mary into my home and heart, rather than twist Scripture to deny Her and Christ’s command concerning Mary: “Behold, thy Mother!”

Happy Thanksgiving to all and thank You God for Your Mercy and blessings!

Mary was such due to the Grace of God through Jesus, just as every other human being before or since. The only difference between Mary and the rest of us is that Mary was given this grace upon her conception in order that she would be the pure vessel needed to carry Jesus in her womb. Remember that the punishment for touching the Ark was death, because the Ark was God’s throne and the center of His presence on earth.

Which leads us to why Mary is known as the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant held manna(bread from heaven), Aaron’s rod, which though a stick budded overnight with flowers and almonds signaling God’s choice of Aaron a priest, and the Ten Commandments, written by the hand of God.

Jesus was all three of these things at once. He declared himself Bread of Life, He is the Word of God and His sacrifice on a stick brought forth eternal life, showing God choice of Jesus as High Priest.

Considering the reverence and strictures as to sanctity and purity of the Ark, who could deny that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant?

Lastly, the reason so many discussions of the Catholic faith devolves into debate over Mary is that Protestants use her as a way of justifying the fact that they will not accept the truth and authority of the Catholic Church.

Truly stunning. Calling Mary a sinner, which the Bible does and makes NO exception for her, is insulting Jesus? Wow. The Protestant Reformation was not reforming Christianity, but actually reclaiming it. In no way was the state of the Catholic Church more Biblical than what the reformers pursued.

Wileygrl3 on November 26, 2009 at 12:29 AM

Not to speak for God here, but don’t expect Him to ask you why you believed Mary was sinless.

dthorny on November 26, 2009 at 12:16 AM

The Hebrews passage concerns the priestly order of Christ according to Melchizedek, and it establishes a headship view of mankind, which indeed involves the imputation of sin.

Simply put, the sinlessness of Mary is not at all a Biblical concept. It may be a teaching of the Catholic Church, but the Bible has not been the base of much of their doctrine.

Grafted: you are the perfect example of why I call protest-ants “biblical idiots.” You claim the Bible calls Mary a “sinner” and yet nowhere does it state such. Indeed, it says the opposite: that She was “Full of Grace.” Full. Get it? Not halfway, not three-quarters, but full. The fact that Mary rejoices in God Her Savior does not equate to Her calling Herself a sinner. So since you are so smart in the Scriptures, recite the verse where Mary specifically is called a sinner; not the old tired protest-ant claim we are all sinners. For while that is true, none of us are worthy enough to claim the Holy Spirit overshadowed us creating the Incarnate Word to physically dwell within for nine months. That’s how close Jesus is to His Mother. And since you are to be like Jesus, who followed the 10 Commandments and honored His Mother for 33 years on Earth, why do you think you can dishonor Her? For people like you, since you can’t get it in your feebleness, try to say nothin’ at all.

Catholic politicians will give up the church before they give up their careers. The Church can succeed in getting unanimity on its position, but given that it opposes abortion from the point of conception, even in cases of rape and incest, it could end up with very few practicing Catholics in elected office.
dedalus on November 26, 2009 at 9:43 AM

I’d prefer that –for a time– than tolerating fifty heretics telling the common people that being a good Catholic has nothing to do with listening to the bishops.

It’s sad to see, even here on HA, we have pure and simple religious bigotry. What difference does it make if one’s religion dictates their positions/views on various issues? Everyone bases their views on SOMETHING. Is it somehow better that a leftist base his view that a penultimate right should exist to kill one’s unborn baby one the ether … than a Catholic base their view that doing so is wrong upon their religion?

You claim the Bible calls Mary a “sinner” and yet nowhere does it state such. Indeed, it says the opposite: that She was “Full of Grace.” . . . . For while that is true, none of us are worthy enough to claim the Holy Spirit overshadowed us creating the Incarnate Word to physically dwell within for nine months. . . . And since you are to be like Jesus, who followed the 10 Commandments and honored His Mother for 33 years on Earth, why do you think you can dishonor Her?

simeon on November 26, 2009 at 6:43 PM

3 very true and Biblical statements. She is “the woman” of the Bible, from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation Chapter 12. The “woman” from St. John’s Gospel, at the beginning of His earthly ministry at Cana to the end of it at the cross.

Thank you, to you and the others here who have defended the Church’s Biblical truths and Our Blessed Mother.

Calling Mary a sinner, which the Bible does and makes NO exception for her, is insulting Jesus?

. . . Simply put, the sinlessness of Mary is not at all a Biblical concept.

Grafted on November 26, 2009 at 6:13 PM

Romans 3:20-24:
“since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,”

“all have sinned.”

Was the purpose of St. Paul’s sentence to say that every human who ever was born has sinned? No, he saying there is “no distinction” among men who follow the law and men who don’t. That the law is not what makes a man righteous. It is faith in Christ. We are “justified freely by his grace.”

And Mary was justified by His grace. Jesus was her Savior. “My soul rejoices in God my Savior.” (Luke 1:47) We believe He saved her, by the merits of Jesus Christ, before sin touched her soul (at the moment of her conception, not before and not after), The rest of us He saved after sin touched our souls. A timing difference.

(You may have heard the story of the man walking down a road who falls in a puddle of mud. A man reaches down and helps him up and cleans him up. Another woman walks down the same road and as she is about to fall into the mud, the man puts out His arm and catches her before she falls in. He is still the Savior of both people, He has saved them both from the mud.)

Is it true that “ALL have sinned?” Was this to be taken literally or as a way of speaking. Like when someone says, “all the people at the concert loved it” or “all politicians are liars” or a child said, “everyone is going.”

We know Jesus didn’t sin. So already it doesn’t mean “all.” You can say that is obviously implied. Well, maybe Mary was obviously implied to Paul and those who read it back then.

What about infants and very young children who die early? Have they sinned? The angels in Heaven haven’t sinned and God created them sinless. Couldn’t God create a woman that way? And since God is outside of time and space and can do all things, He could create that woman and give her this gift by the merits of Jesus Christ even before He died on the cross. By His grace.

“All” meant GENERAL HUMANITY. Our human condition. Not every single person ever born without exception. God can create exceptions. And Mary could have been one (as Jesus was another) and Paul’s statement would still be true as far as general mankind.

As one of my fellow Catholics has already said, the Bible does not name Mary anywhere as having sinned. And the early writings in the Church, East and West, say they believed Mary was sinless and pure. Actually the first writings about her in the early 100’s AD call her the New Eve and the Ark of the New Covenant. (Like other faithful Catholics here have mentioned. Because she held the Word of God made flesh, the Bread from Heaven and our High Priest forever, like the Old Ark held the Word of God, manna from Heaven and the top of the staff of the high priest, Aaron. She was also carefully crafted by God to His specifications, like the old Ark.)

ALLAH: I’m sympathetic to Matthews’s broader point about not letting any faith dictate the content of secular law

That argument has never made sense to me. Laws are clearly based on what we believe to be absolute, undeniable rights and wrongs. What atheist moral value has ever lead to the creation of law?

I just don’t believe you can live in an accidental universe on an accidental planet in the form of an accidental cancer that accidentally mutated over billions of years from mud to become what you are today, a creature without ultimate purpose or meaning or any true reason for being outside of your DNA’s desire to replicate itself so it can form more accidental creatures in a cold, uncaring universe, and then say what you think is right and wrong. You clearly get your right and wrong from religions throughout history, as they purport to know you are NOT an accident, and that your life has true ultimate meaning and purpose.

Atheists can too easily argue ‘hey, we’re all a result of a blind accidental process of evolution that has no purpose, which means our lives have no meaning that exists outside of our own accidentally evolved minds, so let’s get stoned and have sex, and just be merry until we die and cease to exist.’ I would totally respect an atheist who made that statement, as it fits with their overarching and inevitable view of the universe.

Point is- there’s truly no such thing as secular law that is totally disconnected from religion. Without religion, which attaches ultimate meaning to our universe, right and wrong is meaningless, which means laws would be meaningless too. You simply cannot fully separate the two.

I must admit I’m a bit floored that catholics actually admit they think Jesus had to be born again, which means he was sinful before john baptized him. That truly is crazy.”I wish you guys would be more open with this stuff, it would save evangelicals a lot of trouble, because then people would see that you guys truly do have a completely separate and unbiblical religion.”
TTheoLogan on November 25, 2009 at 10:27 PM

I haven’t seen a post by a Catholic here, nor have I ever heard a Catholic ever say Jesus was sinful, as it’s blasphemy. You really spun a web in order to deceive!

I’d prefer that –for a time– than tolerating fifty heretics telling the common people that being a good Catholic has nothing to do with listening to the bishops.

Chris_Balsz on November 26, 2009 at 8:24 PM

The price they pay is less influence within the Dem party on other issues. If it moves the needle on the abortion issue, then it will be worthwhile for them. However, if Dem officials don’t change on abortion but decrease their attention to other Catholic Church priorities then they won’t benefit. However, the Church is bigger than just the U.S. and operates with very long time horizons.

Sen. John Kerry has been running around for years telling the world that Vatican II taught, as God gave us a conscience, no priest or bishop or Pope can tell us what’s right or wrong; so he’s still a true Catholic for voting for abortion. And he’s got dozens of other “Catholics” on Capitol Hill who will sign their names to that baloney (God gave us fists, too, but I don’t think Kerry would pretend the Church can’t instruct you about their proper use). If that’s tolerated we won’t have much a church in this country. Preserving the church matters more than having nominal representation in Congress. If we stregthen the Church we’ll get the votes anyhow.