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Oh hello and happy sunday everyone finaly I have something interesting to say 😀 The inspiration for martelo towers came from corsica from torra di mortella and the battle that tok place there. So I made a comment yeey 😀

No other company will ever reach GW level, because no other company will get the ideal conditions GW had to grow the way they did.

Good days, bad days, new Renaissance, nobody can truly appreciate the impact GW has on the hobby and the gambles they took on their way to success.

The fact you and everybody else speaks about “plastic models”, vehicles and huge stuff as centrepieces is because of GW and their “indoctrination”.

Earlier in their history they had to differentiate themselves from their competition and it can be seen in the Rogue Trader era white dwarfs they way they chose to do it was to invest in plastic models production, a risky proposition especially at that era, but one that was heavily advertised and pushed to the consumer aggressively as the best thing ever and to their credit it worked, plastics successful introduction was what lead to the vehicles since this was another differentiating factor with the competition and of course were pushed hard to the point were everybody could have a Rhino.

but their biggest strength always was and always will be they stick to their own original IP, the company that almost equalled them target games/ harbringer with Warzone showed the perils of not been your own company but a subsidiary and the problems on not owning the IP you make your money from, after their demise GW was unrivalled for 10 years nobody to take their market share, nobody to contest them, this will never happen ever again and no other company will ever have that luxury, the fact that at the end of this era GW was dragged screaming and crying to sign up the LOTR deal, if interviews with Rick Priestly are to be believed, only reinforced their position on the market lead, yes GW reached a dark point where they themselves almost damaged irreparably themselves but it was not because of competition, but extremely bad management.

Fact is to be GW you need to be your own manufacturer and distributor, make so many money to the shops that you can dictate your own terms and have enouph capital to take big risks without impacting your company.

Kickstarter or not you will not find any company that can do all the above or part of the above.

A side note CMON and FFG are publishing companies not manufacturers, FFG in particular is a subsidiary, CMON is just in stock market, they do not care about having their “own” IP since they are publishing games not producing games.

Licencing IP has shown time and again it is to be avoided by the companies especially the small ones, except the LOTR bubble that is a mismanagement on GWs part if the company cares for long term sustainable growth, even FFG was hit by WOTC taking away Android Netrunner when it reached a critical mass of success, DUST, AVP, Warzone, Netrunner and many more show the risks and limitations for a company to trade an IP they do not own and in that sense you are right a company should create their own IP and stick with it, that does not mean they cannot or should not diversify within their IP, GW and CB are good examples of creating products within their IP, they can create new sources of revenue and can be treated as separate departments for the company, not necessarily as gateway games, but gateway to the IP and this is far more important that anything else the IP and the ways to make your consumers to talk about your IP when they do not play, is what will eventually make them loyal and invested.

Now we come to the odd part of the discussion collectors… we are all collectors, relegating an armies collection to “big centrepiece models” is absurd, yes GW does it because they can do it and it is a differentiating factor for them to force feed the notion of huge models, that are out of place in their games,
is what you must have, but it is not what makes a collection or why people collect armies from other ranges, GW does it because the others cannot do it and they can do it because their strategy was always “how can I differentiate myself in a way nobody else can” it is clever for the other companies to not go in competition with GW on this, it is quite clear GW does it because they cannot do it and trying to do something you cannot do is economically suicidal.

Finally I competently disagree with you on Kickstarter, kickstarter and whatever capital it may create will never create a new GW, kiclstater may create companies but not manufacturers and to be a GW type entity you need to be a manufacturer of your products.

I would love a Let’s Play of some games like Burrows and Badgers, Frostgrave, or SAGA — games constantly talked about and loved by OTT — and yea, selfishly loved by me.
On topic… I feel sad when IP’s go south, or lost. Even when game companies forget about their own. Dropzone — I miss cool updates for that one, or Wrath of Kings, which I have 2 armies of — gone dead, I can still play it, but miss seeing updates. Runewars by FFG — updates are not as forthcoming, which is too bad.

Ben is right, in the fact that Games Workshop brings out products so frequently, that the consumer doesn’t have the time to look at new game systems, because GM has the quality, and range of product that consumers feel like they need more of. GW is the Apple or Microsoft of gaming — they have been built up (as Justin says — in a bubble ie. 80’s) .. and continued through the years. They’ve had a few hiccups, but there’s no competing with them unless they royally screw up in a new edition (which they are not apt to do, because they have the $$ to keep the talent needed to stay relevant to the gamer’s wants). –It’s like the Magic the Gathering of miniature games.

Our whole society if moving towards instant gratification and consuming all the things. I think companies feel they have to bring out new products to keep generating new interest and revenue.

It certainly I think is an problem. Even I find it happening to Guildball – a game specifically designed to be tight small model count play experience. They have grown the factions and starting minor factions now, but I feel that they did not work to balance the main factions before trying to add new factions – so my concern is with game balance not model release. They have to tinker with ideas and dilute the game.

Larger games dilute themselves with factions, people moan about too few options, but for me I would rather have a limited faction choice with a number of available and interesting units and learn to be a master of a faction. I hope FFG and Legion stick to a limited factions.

For me I don’t play games a lot and buy lots more games than I play, so releases every month I don’t need and it puts me off, it makes me feel that I buy a core box set and straight away I know it’s not the game the company really wanted to realease, monthly releases to me feel like small patches to an unfinished game.

No matter how good the sculpts are, I won’t collect certain systems because either I won’t play the game (40k) or I won’t be able to find other players (Deep Wars).

Looking at my own collection of minis, I notice that I collect multiple armies for the same systems, specifically Bolt Action, Saga and Dust.

To be fair, historical games don’t have the IP issues other games do. FWIW, I have more units for my US Airborne than I’ll wver need but I can Field a variety of builds. And I’ve now started expanding on that to include Pacific war units to go with my Japanese army.

My Saga armies are quite different. Each has a distinct play style and aesthetic such as Anglo Danes, Normans, Arthurian Bretons, Late Romans, Early Byzantines (called Last Romans), and a Muslim army. At some point I’d like to add a Polish and Eastern Princes army. Maybe even a Teutonic army.

Dust is a bit different in that you can include historical and weird war minis in the same game. And the players actively encourage kit bashing and creating new units. But that system does have a great deal of depth to its various armies with lots of possible builds and, this is important, no model is ever obsolete. They will always have rules for discontinued models.

I think Heroclix is the longest running IP/mini game going, and continuing fanbase/presence. Alway a tourny happening. Of course I’ve always been a fan, because it’s superhero’s, and I can present it to kids and adults. Say what you will about pre-painted quality … fact is, I can always spend $25, and play in a closed box tourney and have fun with whatever I get.
Ug, while I’m still working on painting my horde of other mini’s

I see kickstarter as part of the problem. When you invest in a kickstarter that is a new war game, be it skirmish or not, you want them to have everything thought out with the number of factions, models, rules, etc. If the kickstarter is successful that it is usually at least a year if not two until the models and game are completed and sent to the “investors”. By this point the company has used all its money generated by the kickstarter and either needs new orders or needs to run another kickstarter to continue development. New orders likely only happen if the game is actually being played and thus attracting interest in gaming clubs (ideal situation). If a company decides to do another kickstarter should it be for the same game or should it be for something new? The thing that will raise the most money is likely something new.

It is kinda unfair to compare to GW but perhaps companies can look at what they are doing right and why they are successful. It isn’t enough that they make the most popular games but why they remain at the forefront of our names. People may complain that not all the codexes are released at the beginning of a new version but the steady release of codexes and models is part of the reason it remains popular. If GW released everything and sat back for several years would it remain the dominant game played in gaming clubs? Maybe not.

It might be hard to do as GW does but perhaps things could be done on a smaller scale. I’ve noticed that guild-ball for example seems to get rejuvenated with the new season (now season 4). There are likely only a few miniature companies that could do as GW does (Privateer Press and Mantic are the two I can think of).

So “Have Game Companies Lost Their Focus?” No, they are doing what they need to do in order to compete and to raise the funds they need to stay viable. Until a game (other than GW) becomes a hit (Warmahordes is close but I don’t think they are there yet) and then can be supported on a continuing basis things will continue as they are.

@warzan I am confused by the bar you set for “collectability” of a miniatures game. You mention “tanks” and “fliers” and “drop pods”. It seems to imply until a game is a “mass battle game” it can’t be collectable.

Example: Infinity – this is a game where the common rifle has a range extending most of the game board. Its a “true-future” sci-fi game, as opposed to WH40k which is basically WW2 with powered armor. Very few, if any, 40k armies use what we would consider modern weapons and tactics. Including tanks and flyers in a skirmish game of Infinity’s scale would drastically change the entire nature of the game.

Also, by that POV, games like Bolt Action and Flames of War are FAR more collectible than 40k. The variety of vehicle variants available to most WW2 armies far exceeds those available to most 40k armies.

I agree with others that say that the biggest road block to a 40k competitor these days is the market. GW grew up in a vacuum, where it was just fighting against other “nerd” hobbies for people’s cash. Now, with “nerd” culture on the rise, there are entire arrays of shows, movie franchises, licensed games, all competing for people’s money and time. Included amongst those are dozens of different gaming companies trying to each get a piece of the scraps left over from GW’s table. In many ways, it almost seems like the most successful ones are those that don’t try and bit off too much. They recognize their base, the make sure that base is happy, and they try and grow things slowly. It seems like those that try an expand and take on the “big dog” overextend and then collapse as a result.

Loving the wall paper idea @lloyd@avernos, think im gonna have to find a roll or two. Like what you have done so far and the walls a great idea, you have mentioned getting and using the big coffee tins. i dont have any of them but i do have a few baby food tins. There about 13cm across...16.5cm high and 40cm round, so once i get some free time ill have a go at doing one with the paper.

Happy Monday or whats left of it guys, i`m of to work night shift……Night all

I was in B&Q last week and saw the exact same wallpaper. I took some off of the sample roll. I’m going to use it to make a lovely piazza square for an Italian hill top village for Flames of War. Scale might be a bit off but can’t complain for free. And no-one is going to put on their wall, surely?

Speaking as a long time Dropzone player and Dropfleet kickstarter backer, I feel that Hawk were right in their intention to expand the Drop Commander Universe, but did it at a point where the company was not mature enough to handle that expansion.

Hawk’s operation was overly reliant upon Dave who had to run the company and do nearly all of the sculpting & writing. If Hawk had a second (or even third) sculptor they would have been able to keep Dropzone ticking over whole getting Dropfleet out of the door. Instead the company ground to a halt.

Mantic tried to launch their first incarnation of Warpath with too small of a range ready to roll. That meant they looked under baked compared to 40k. Unfortunately for them, the second time around their kickstarter shipped too close to the new 40k landing and with their overseas production delays the full range was not ready to release in one go. And as if was a second edition, it needed to overcome the reputation left by the first attempt. Had the timing been better I think Mantic could have made greater headway than they do far have.

In short, I think that any company needs to diversify at some point, but only when their product and operation has matured enough to support doing so. If you have opportunity to create a related game that expands an IP then that has to be the way to go. Especially if you can offer players opportunities to use models they might already own such as Deadzone/Warpath, Kill Team/40k or BMG/DC Universe.

I think the collector’s gene has driven this move away from mass battle games. I know this applies to me but I imagine it applies to others as well. When going to play factions we tend to want to dabble a little in everything rather than go for the classic 40K 20,000 points in one army. Having the skirmish style games or smaller scale games allows us to indulge and go for the 20,000 points in 5 different forces.

I have played around with cobble stone textured wallpaper years ago. Made a game board and a bunch of medieval houses (for Mordheim). But this texture you have found is even more awesome!

@warzan What is the obsession with vehicles and big, stompy things for evaluating collectibility? I think that just comes down to taste. Even when I was still playing 40K I hardly bought any vehicle. They just held no interest for me. Instead I focused on the special units and characters.

Now I play mostly Infinity. In my opinion this game is collectible due to the steady stream of releases. I know some people collect quite a few factions over time, even though they mostly play one faction. Adding vehicles or other things bigger than TAGs has no place in the game mechanics. They are just terrain pieces. So it is quite fitting that Corvus Belli leaves those things to the terrain makers and keeps focusing on new units and campaign books for the main game.

Since Kickstarter I think slow and steady collecting has been replaced by wait and get everything at once. It’s sort of like Christmas that can happen all year round.
It gives a different kind of satisfaction… until the Kickstarter fatigue sets in.

I definitely believe Game Companies have lost their focus! I was caught up in a lot of the hype for new games from 2012-2016. But last year I finally said enough is enough and I’ve gone cold turkey on newly published game systems. I’ve focused on a few core games and specific armies within them, WWII Flames of War, 40K Black Templars, 40K Kreig, LOTR/Hobbit and Armada. The only new game I did bite on was SW Legion (just could not pass that up). Otherwise all the new stuff I’ve just said no because the choices are just too varied. I think tons of it looks great but I know I will never get around to it. So for me companies that keep their focus are very important. Even if they don’t I’ll tend to stick with my core games like it did for LOTR while GW did not spend much effort on it.
All the other games I had and extra armies I had collected in the game systems I’ve stuck with I have offloaded.
I’m definitely a believer in keeping that core focus for a game company.
Great show guys. Looking forward to linking up with the BOW team at Essen Spiel!

I have to say the thing I find most surprising is the lack of games that have not latched on in the different styles of gaming. There is no Super big game for Space ship battles. There is no super big game for Air Combat. So much of gaming is centered around GW IPs that all that follow basically feel like they MUST do a scifi/fantasy troop based wargames. That games that deal with Ships in space or water seems to be a secondary thing. Companies are trying to get a way from that but it seems that people don’t ‘want’ those games as much? You would think that by now there will be that one BIG Ship game that everyone knows about and has a massive following. Do people just don’t want those types of games or is it that there isn’t a Great game of it out there? Could their be a great ship game out there it just that not enough people play it for it to get the that level of traction?

I think I agree with a lot of the comments that have broadly given good reasons for disagreeing with the thrust of what was presented (and I am not talking about Lloyds tower 😉 ).

I think a lot of this comes across as “Why are the companies not making the games I want them to make like they used to back in the day.”

I doubt it’s because they aren’t thinking about how to make money, those that have survived and even thrived for a long time (Corvus Belli et al) have probably done so because these were the right decisions. Maybe a lot of players don’t want to collect big vehicles, maybe people are still collectors, but they like collecting new games more than tons of miniatures for one game (I know I fall into this category). I agree with another commentator that it would be good to get an industry view on this topic, will probably reveal a lot.

Infinity aught to be a good counter-example, for years they have focussed on the one universe and mostly the one product, and they are doing well. They aren’t beating GW any time soon, and if so, it isn’t because they were distracted due to making other things.

I love the plethora of different games out there, and I love trying them all out and seeing something new regularly. If I want huge armies, big vehicles, and a hobby big enough to last a lifetime, well 40k and now AoS is there if I want it.