User Tools

Friends

Well, once you are against a "big dog", you can always seek cooperation through other "big dogs", if you have a solid case at hand, they would be more than happy to help you destroy their opponent, so that they can advertise that case to further promote themselves

And tbh, all he needs is a crazy "Joker" like me, hell, I would just defend him for sake of troubling Blizzard, maybe that way they would improve the arenas and we wouldn't be theorycrafying here

I just wanted to write about the legal issue since I don't think there is this "one right and one wrong approach" in our discussion. The points you raise are crucial, even though we agree to disagree on most of them.

The legal dispute related to Dota2 mainly revolved around the "DOTA" brand name since Valve wanted to trademark it. In addition the in-game use of characters such as the "Skeleton King" and others were copyrighted by Blizzard. I tend to follow the corporate structure of US public companies, and read most of Blizzard's public announcements, as well as the publicly available court files, judge opinions, and the settlement agreement itself. First of all, the lawsuit ended with a "Settlement Agreement". Sure, you might want to say one side may have won since they had a higher leverage than the other, but technically, there is neither a winner, nor a loser. Both parties got to reach an agreement on acceptable terms. While Valve could keep the brand "DOTA"-"DOTA2", characters such as the Skeleton King were removed from the game (replaced by Wraith King afaik), so Blizzard also got what they wanted.

The legal issue you raised here would not have valid grounds, since this game in development uses none of the copyrighted materials by Blizzard. Besides, just compare it to the DOTA case, on one hand there is literally copyrighted brands, trademarks and on the other you have some spells which have similar names and work in a completely different game engine/artwork. "The Arena" is a game mode, but not a copyrighted material, it is not a brand. Many games have arena modes. Regarding game mechanics, as long as this "Arena" game didn't steal the game engine (a property of Blizzard), then there is nothing wrong about the mechanics either. As long as a statement is within the scope of fair competition, any person in the US can advertise/compare their products against others (look at advertisements, they usually say theirs is best compared to others for example). Of course, there shouldn't be any defamation. In this case, the dev is not claiming his abilities/spells work exactly like WoW, he is not MISLEADING anyone into thinking his game is WoW-or a WoW copyrighted content. Now I can tell you one thing, and that is the jurisdiction. Valve is based in US so is Blizzard. since these two companies have their HQ's in the US, the lawsuit was within the jurisdiction of the US courts. However, a Russian company/individual is not within US jurisdiction by default. Therefore, the case would not go to a US court anyway, unless of course this Russian company would have a subsidiary in the US, or it would operate through a distrubiting company located in the US. Even if that would be the case, the lawsuit would be against the subsidiary / distributing company, and there is literally no copyright infringement at this point anyway. Besides, good luck trying to locate the HQ of a Russian company which sells their games via internet. I don't think the game is intended to be sold in collector's edition package in the US anyway. Therefore, opening a lawsuit just to slow down the business would be very costly for Blizzard.

The worst case scenario would be perhaps some ability names (if they were properly copyrighted and protected by Blizzard-we know this is not always the case, you can read more about this at SEC filings (you can find it here: http://investor.acti...ec.cfm?view=all ) if the dev uses copyrigted content. However his game engine is not Blizzard's copyrighted engine, and you should already know WoW itself stole spells/mechanics from other games. They literally have a "Force Choke" from Star Wars: The Old Republic for DK's and just named it Asphyxiate. Did Bioware sue Blizzard ? No...they can't, because there is no valid grounds to do that. A copyrighted material is not easy to identify in games, because the characteristics of it has to be visually the same + introduced by the same engine.

I wish Blizzard would sue this guy though, he would win his case and then he could easily make some millions via countersuit, claiming material damages since his project was damaged via defamation / unfair competition.

Well, at least he knows who to reach for if he ever needs a lawyer.

Ah, a lawyer I see

Maybe you're right - but to be fair I feel like they'd find some attack surface to poke a hole at - depending on how the "final iteration" of the game turns out it will be almost an exact copy of WoW Arena just with different champions. Also, I assume the US is not the only area whose copyright laws are of interest, the entirety of EUand most importantly Russia ought to also be of substantial interest.

Also, if you ever did become his lawyer I recon you'd get buried by the massive amount of paperwork sent by the hordes of lawyers of Blizzard, because to my knowledge that's what happens to "smaller firms" when they try to take on the big dogs. Honestly, the kind of money he'd have to spend in order to 'win' such a lawsuit (and then to potentially win a counter lawsuit) is not the kind of money he has (afaik) - which is exactly what Blizzard would be betting on in a situation like that.

Hey, since you mentioned me I felt obligated to respond! Well written post by the way, even if I disagree with a lot of it. I'll post about the things I felt I had something decent to reply with.

While there is a discussion about targeting, I think the aim factor MAY (please notice I said MAY with caps) allow a player to bring more "skill" to the table. Let us just consider the most "skill based" game in competitive gaming. Of course some will say Starcraft, some will say Dota etc. but for me, it is undoubtedly CS. The reason for CS being so skillcapped is not a complex issue. First, the aim factor (under the aim factor, you have branches such as spray control, tapping, range, positioning, reflex, etc) allows players with better aims to excel against others (excluding teamplay here) and second, the mindgames in CS allows players to combat mentally as well (teamplay, fake strats, fake sounds, fake flash, split tactics, fake sprays, fake reloads, smoke rushing etc.)

As you can see, while the aim itself of course brings a higher skillcap, it is these mindgames what makes a game so entertaining. You see these top level mindgames in Dota, LoL, Starcraft, CS:GO, apart from the actual hard-earned skill itself (aim in cs is hard earned, just like the micromanagement and teamplay in Dota, LoL, [no teamplay in SC but it is the king of micromanagement]).

Then on the other hand, you have the WoW arena. I am not going to bash it here, but it is certain that there is a group of players (including myself) who like the concept of 3v3 PvP in an arena setting. While many games tried to take it to a next-generation level, many failed, and this should be a lesson to be learned by potential developers and potential next-generation systems.

Yes, aiming brings a new set of skills required to perform - there's no denying that.

Yes, in CS aiming is king - but CS doesn't have a boat load of skills, same goes for MOBAs and Overwatch.

I am fully convinced that you can't make a game with the depth of WoW Arena PvP (Overwatch nor CS has the depth WoW has - they have the same/higher skill cap perhaps, but not the same depth).

You mentioned Wildstar, and imo that game was far to spammy, non-focused on CC-chains and suffered from the usual lag problems related to aiming. And I firmly believe all that stems from using far too many AoE spells (either in the form of cones or just aimed like old Blizzard from WoW).

AoE damage de-incentivizes CC (and adding a "does not attack CC'd people" is just weird tbh) and we all know the rage involved with hitting laggy people with aimed abilities.

Imo, you can't make a spiritual successor to WoW PvP without implementing the most core feature, namely lock-on targeting.

Frankly, I think the creator of "The Arena" game is doing a good job. Of course, there is room for improvement, and it is probably why he/she is posting here, to get feedback.

Sure, of course he is doing a good job so far. But I think s/he

A) won't finish the project.

doesn't have the resources to market the project.

C) isn't the right person to be the to be the front face of the project (Russian made PvP games always flop in the EU/US + s/he responded far too agressively to my first post - doesn't bode well).

D) will get shut down due to copyright infringement. The author even posted a video where he describes how the abilities in his game function just like famous abilities from WoW - gl winning a court case after that one. Doing something like that shows the person isn't ready to lead a project like this.

Therefore, "The Arena" could distinguish between skills which require actual aim, vs skills which require tab-targeting. Both is skill, but one is aim, the other one is micromanagement. Since you are in between, why not introduce both, to create a higher skill ceiling while actually improving game fluidity ? Your unique hybrid mechanism could bring a next-gen level itself, if it is good enough.

WoW already has this, and so did Wildstar (to some extent) they both had some abilities that were targeted and some that were aimed. Wildstar obviously had far more that were aimed than WoW - but they're both on the spectrum.

Wildstar failed heavily (especially in the PvP department) and aimed spells is one of the most disliked mechanics in WoW (admittedly partly because of WoW's poor netcode).

Actually, these two things combined (1) Aiming and (2) # of abilities is the number one reason BLC/Bloodrite is not a spiritual successor to WoW PvP.

It has been tried before and it has failed.

Someone should try making a real copy of WoW Arena. Without all the fluff-fluff to make it more MOBA-like. That has never been tried before.

In WoW, you have fake casting, positioning, movement (grip/blink) etc. Try to find ways to bring more interesting / better mindgames with your game. I read that Ridtur mentioned body blocking. In this game, the first time I was watching it, I thought to myself : "If there is actual body blocking this could be good." Imagine what could body blocking potentially bring to your game. The level of teamplay would drastically improve, the actual positioning would matter. Your "mutant" class could accomplish more than just chasing someone to death (I know it as fear/CC etc but imagine if the mutant could actually take the hits via positioning, and if there are skill based purely around this concept). Certain classes could have certain spells such that body-blocking would actually benefit them offensively etc.

Honestly, all I see happening is it being a complete clusterfuck due to casters standing in front of their healers blocking CC forever and melee's always standing in front of casters so they're unable to cast anything on anyone but said melee.

Oh and the obvious "OOHH I FUCKING HIT HIM, THIS LAG!!!" rage.

Your game looks a bit grim, it reminds me more of a Mortal Combat/Prototype mash-up. If this is the message you'd like to convey, then bring more reflex-related, reaction based skills, and make it look more violent, more aggressive.

However, speaking from my own experience, colours are good. Colourful games are more stimulant compared to grim looking games (there are several papers on this issue). So, if you could introduce a bit more colour/maybe also in a cartoony fashion, your game will do better against aging.

In summary, there is potential in this game. I hope you will make it more user friendly while creating more depth in the actual skill-level itself. I have some ideas, and this post is waaaaaay too long anyway, but I wish you good luck with your project.

This I do fully agree with.

I understand that the assets currently used are mostly placeholders but it looks really really aged atm, and whenever you go for a more grim and realistic art style aging becomes an issue really fast.

Just look at WoW Arena, it's a 7 years (or so) old game mode and it still doesn't look too aged - mostly due to the art style. Obviously spells and stuff have gotten updated but you can go look at TBC Private Server Arena movies and honestly - it doesn't look that aged (don't look at retail footage from the time, people played so bad back then that it simply feels/looks aged due to that - at least to me it does).

You need to hit their twitter & forums and get big support and somehow catch the eye of a senior who'll look into it personally - you will not get anywhere with just regular tickets. In fact, one of the GMs whom replied to you even used a standard reply for banned people - even if you aren't banned (he replied something along the lines with "we won't unban you" or something like that, it's ridiculous). That should show how much they care/know in the regular support staff.

Is that the art style you're going for? I realize the graphics is obviously nowhere near where it's "intended to be", but is that the general style you're aiming for? Humanoids and very realistic (not cartoony or similar) - or is it just placeholders?

Lets look at WotLK and take for example Feral Druid (WotLK), I've removed the ones that weren't "necessary" and that can be cut without impacting the spec too much, also I've assumed forms are removed and everything is usable in "human form" (to cut down on keybinds):

Bash

Abolish Poison

Remove Curse

Barkskin

Berserk

Tiger's Fury

Pounce

Cyclone

Dash

Demo Roar

Entangling Roots

Faerie Fire

Feral Charge

Mark of the Wild

Healing Touch

Hibernate

Innervate

Moonfire

Wrath

Prowl

Regrowth

Rejuvenation

Lifebloom

Powershift-like ability (due to removal of forms)

Maim

Survival Instincts

Tranquility

Frenzied Regenration + Bear Form replacement defensive

As you can see it's easily ~35 keybinds. Some could potentially be cut (don't need Wrath, only need 1 of Regrowth and Healing Touch, Lifebloom is not vital either, nor is Demo Roar, abolish poison and Remove Curse could be merged into 1 ability) so could potentially get down to ~30, and then Feral is one of specs with the most keybinds but I'm fairly certain you can't create a class that feels complete in WoW Arena with <25 keybinds, or you're going to get Legion 2.0.

c) Special reporting feature that automatically punishes toxic players (report players for unsportsmanship/bad language, ie throwing and toxicity respectively). If someone gets reported enough they get banned from solo queue for a while, if they get reported more they get banned again (longer) and then eventually they just get banned for the entire season and DQ'd from end of season rewards. If you abuse the report system you also get punished (can't report as often or banned etc).

d) Voice Communication. Implement Battle.net voice into solo queue so that it automatically starts a call. Easy keybinds/access to muting/sound level changing would also be required.

e) Select your comp. Everyone has to select at least ~3 comps that they want to get queued as, that means you have some choice in what you want to play, so you never get matched as Elemental/Enhancement/X or some other really, really, dogshit comp.

f) Duo queue. If you want to play with a friend you can do so, however when you face none-duo queue opponents they lose/win less or more mmr and rating respectively so they don't get punished for playing true "solo". Rules ( and (e) still apply.

always amuses me when people say this - the legendary daggers were a small flat % damage increase for rogue abilities, vs the pve 2 set that reduced your ability costs for several seconds after breaking stealth and practically doubled your burst, but everyone always complains about the daggers and never the set bonus

I guess I should've specified "pve set bonus, vial & legendaries", 'cus that's what I ment and you know it. You're just strawmanning. Also I see you couldn't stay away from more passive aggressive smiley bullshit.

thats an problem both with the attitude of the current wow player base and how current class design leaves almost zero room for playstyle differentiation, not a pve gear makes you do more damage problem

You're arguing that with different, better, class design PvE gear wouldn't be a problem? gl creating a utopia where all playstyles of all specs are equally successful (or where a playstyle that requires PvE gear isn't just straight up the best for any spec).

In practice there will always be a best way to play (and thus gear) any given spec x in any comp y versus any comp z, regardless of class design.

And even if it's disputed which way that is among the playerbase, why should anyone be pigeonholed into the, potentially worse, playstyle? All just because they can't raid mythic 3 times a week (+ arenas) to get the PvE gear that the other playstyle requires to perform well? As I said before:

a very minor change in stat distribution can make or break an entire spec in PvP

so i'm not allowed to make points based on the people i knew in tbc/wotlk/cata, but everyone else is? seems fair

what I do remember is actual pvp guilds doing 2 hour weekly clears of piss easy raids like Nax, ToC normal, ICC normal to farm items for people who wanted them - and if you desperately wanted heroic versions of ToC/ICC gear, then GDKP runs were popular on all the big servers once raids had been live for a while

No it's perfectly fine for you to make points based on the people you knew in tbc/wotlk/cata, but unless you knew most pvpers in wotlk/cata/tbc that's not what you did.

Also I can see you're glad from those days, which means that most likely your friends and you were fairly hardcore at the time - most people arn't, so your circle of friends isn't really representative of the entire PvP playerbase.

Just because some PvPers did run PvE doesn't mean that's what most PvPers actually wanted to do. The forums and basically everywhere you went was just a massive complaint about OP, practically mandatory, PvE gear in PvP (all the way from TBC to mid MoP), you can't argue against this.

I'd say its far closer to the truth to claim that the "average" opinion of the PvP playerbase is and has pretty much always been that PvE gear should have no place in PvP (at least not as BiS), than the opposite. You're obviously free to disagree with the "average" opinion, but I believe the "solution" to these kind of non-gameplay related issues should fall closer to the average opinion than the fringe opinion(s).

Lastly, can we please just stop this passive aggressive nonsense and just have a normal discussion without the smilies and negative connotations? Seriously, it's much nicer to just have a regular non AJ-aggressive discussion.

the only time in this game's history that pve gear has been "needed to succeed" was season 11 rbgs, and even that was only due to how disgusting dragonsoul weapons/trinkets were for warlock/boomkin/firemage/spriest cleave teams

don't confuse "pve gear makes you do slightly more damage" with "automatically lose if you queue in full pvp gear"

also I have no idea why you think people who did pvp in previous expansions hated pve, most people who played the game back then did not choose to shackle themselves to one single aspect of it

I have no idea why you think you know what most people who played the game back then enjoyed to do and didn't. Unless you're highly schizophrenic you are only one person and not a mind reader as far as I'm aware

Considering pretty much everyone I knew at the time couldn't even try to get the PvE items due to irl constraints we weren't particularly happy about them. Not everyone is a nolifer who has the time to raid 3 days a week and play competitive pvp the rest of them. Those people still want to be competitive in an area of the game that's completely separate to raiding, ie pvp.

Went back and played some MoP S15... damn, if only retail could be anywhere close to that. Instead all I'm doing is spamming damage using an extremely clunky PvE rotation (PS procs used in dps rotation - in PvP, who forgot to think there?) and instant CC (on the wrong DR lol). All without any of the finesse that was Powershifting, Tranquility, Barkskin, Symbiosis (although I thought this one sucked major D as it limited the number of viable comps severely), Innervate, Mark of the Wild (ie buffs to maintain), Nature's Grasp, Treants, Typhoon, HotW, Cyclone, Faerie Fire, Soothe, Disorienting Roar, Cenarion Ward and Hibernate.

Damn, you remember that after all the sh.its i threw here

More PvP rows of talent which target one spell and which should looks like that would be good for me : (Basically what Diablo 3 tried to do with spells, but with less... drastic changes)
Let's imagine, Hammer of Justice : 45s CD - 10y range - Stun 5s - Magical effect
1) Increase the range by 10y, and the cd by 15s (Accessibility choice, better range, easy to use, but longer cooldown.)
2) Increase the CD by 15s, but using it from behind a target reduce the cooldown by 30s. ("Skill choice", longer cooldown, risk/reward)
3) Reduce the duration by 2s and turns it into an horror effect instead of a stun one. (Versatility one, more choice of classes to play with)

You do that to a lot of spells (= Add a bonus/malus talent, so there is no "Ok, i have no choice but taking this" - Looking at you 100% sacrifice -), you add "PvP perks" like "exclusive" spells for PvP situations - that pve wouldn't have - (Like the old trash buffs) and you have a customizable character with more spells to use in PvP, and different from characters to characters (If done correctly). And voilà.

About the incentive to PvP, well... that's another story.

(I'm an old school player of old RPG like NwN, Planescape Torment and Baldur's gate, and there is nothing more exciting for me than customize my character)

Yeah I'm not sure I agree with you exactly on what these perks and new talents should consist of, but the italicized and bolded parts I definitely agree with!

If this game (PvP) is to have any sort of chance whatsoever going forward (next expansion etc) we need to have an unbiased ex-pro PvPer known for his intelligence as the next PvP lead developer. Someone like Azael, Hoodrych or Talbadar.

Also, Blizzard needs to let said person make an actual difference. They need to let that person add more PvP specific talents/perks (similar to what I think JimJim suggested a year ago or more) and they need to redesign the ones we've already got. PvP needs to be designed for PvPers and not as something "for PvErs when they're bored". That design mentality is only going to kill PvP (as made evident by WoD and now Legion). There needs to be more depth and less retarded pruning, simplifying (such as new grounding totem and spell reflection) and "baking" things together. PvP class design needs to be fun for PvPers.

I wish someone would make a real AT-MoP esque server (with good and friendly devs/gms, not in russian, and make it so you don't have to write some weird PM on some weird forum where you have to make a second account in order to get full gear as a "high rated" player). Also I wish they'd just do some minor patching - because while S15 was good it still had its bugs (mc warlock pet bug lel) and imbalances (ret and feral being super dog and rsham/wlock, mage/rdruid being incredibly good).

Jeez, who am I kidding. I just want someone to make a new game. A WoW arena only cs:go-esque game, with WoW controls & 3rd person etc.

Developers' Note: We generally do not allow abilities with cooldowns over 5 minutes to be used in rated PvP. As Shroud of Concealment has a 6 minute cooldown, it should not have been usable in Arenas and Rated Battlegrounds.

Obviously if you have to farm endlessly to get gear its complete shit.But they have a "anti-luck" system.

There is no anti-luck system for the +5 ilvl random retardness. And the anti-luck system only makesit so you don't get the same item several times, it could still take you 25+ weeks to get full gear. With the worst luck you get every single neck, ring, trinket etc before getting your last piece.

Good luck catching up if you're late to the season.

1. Dragon Gladiator Mounts (finally)

Yeah, big whooping do, 1 out of 2 things even remotely positive on this list doesn't even affect gameplay.

2. Complete remake of many classes. Wich will make PvP feel "new" again.

Yeah, my main spec which I've played for over 5 years is getting completely fucked and demoted into a pure dps-bot. If you thought Feral in WoD was retarded then I have a surprise for you! (Although 3x Rake Stun is gone, so that's something)

And it's all because of this retarded "CC disarmament". Yeah I'd rather just spam damage all day than actually do something skillful. Right? No. It sucks.

50% of the new maps are bad - and we really didn't need more maps to begin with. Nice one Blizzard. Why can't they just make reskins of fucking Nagrand instead of coming up with these retarded designs?

4. Shorter Seasons (there will be twice as many seasons per expansion)

Yeah and at the same time they're splitting titles to two separate horde & alliance quotas. Fucking retarded for competitiveness and only done for "muh faction balance". It's only going to make people buy (Blizzard sees the $$$) faction changes to get gladiator on the less competitive side.

5. Obviously the new tuning system wich wont effect pve players is gonna be HUGE for balance and for the mixing of meta.

That is if they actually use it. They already have tuning knobs (which they have shown throughout all of WoD). They just don't use them often enough. Blizzard doesn't do bi-weekly meta updates so it doesn't matter how many tuning knobs they have.