Now I'm sad that it wasn't quite as epic as it could have been. Perhaps the author sort of anticipated this problem, and hence the solicitation? Maybe I just need to stop following this thread.

There really haven't been any rules established for the Transfiguration of conscious beings, have there? Of course you would expect

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mountain trolls to endure it without any problem, because of course why wouldn't they? But human beings? How would that work, and what would the implications be? Could you keep anyone in a state of suspended animation for as long as you could manage? I guess considering wizards can already Apparate, then that at least rules it out as a means of transportation.

It also occurs to me that

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Voldemort really shouldn't have left Harry with an extra hour on his Time-Turner, but considering he didn't know what sort of trap Dumbledore had set, maybe he planned it that way.

Also, he really should have built some kind of extra clause into the Vow against killing anyone present, or escaping, or something. Oh well, hindsight.

Oh, and when did

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Harry learn Obliviate? I know he knew Legimency and Occlumency and all that, but it seems like particularly heady stuff for a first-year to manage.

Jorpho wrote:There really haven't been any rules established for the Transfiguration of conscious beings, have there? Of course you would expect

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mountain trolls to endure it without any problem, because of course why wouldn't they? But human beings? How would that work, and what would the implications be? Could you keep anyone in a state of suspended animation for as long as you could manage? I guess considering wizards can already Apparate, then that at least rules it out as a means of transportation.

In chapter 15, McGonagall states that Transfiguring any living subject, especially yourself, will make it/you very sick and possibly dead. In more detail:

Chapter 15 wrote:"And to answer Mr. Potter's question," Professor McGonagall went on, "it is free Transfiguration which you must never do to any living subject. There are Charms and potions which can safely, reversibly transform living subjects in limited ways. An Animagus with a missing limb will still be missing that limb after transforming, for example. Free Transfiguration is not safe. Your body will change while it is Transfigured - breathing, for example, results in a constant loss of the body's stuff to the surrounding air. When the Transfiguration wears off and your body tries to revert to its original form, it will not quite be able to do so. If you press your wand to your body and imagine yourself with golden hair, afterwards your hair will fall out. If you visualise yourself as someone with clearer skin, you will be taking a long stay at St. Mungo's. And if you Transfigure yourself into an adult bodily form, then, when the Transfiguration wears off, you will die."

Spoiler to 105:

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This is why Quirrellmort states in chapter 105 that the Philosopher's Stone allows human Transfiguration: the reason Transfiguration of living subjects is deadly is that it is not permanent.

Jorpho wrote:Oh, and when did

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Harry learn Obliviate? I know he knew Legimency and Occlumency and all that, but it seems like particularly heady stuff for a first-year to manage.

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Foreshadowing:

Chapter 90 wrote:"There's some magics I mean to learn. Spells I could've used earlier today, if I'd thought to study them beforehand." The boy's voice was cold. "Spells I'll need, if this sort of thing goes on happening. Most I expect I can just look up. Some I expect I can't."

The Defense Professor inclined his head. "I shall teach you almost any magic you wish to know, Mr. Potter. I do have some limits, but you may always ask. But what specifically do you seek? You lack the raw power for the Killing Curse and most other spells deemed forbidden -"[snip]"What about Memory Charms? The Weasley twins were acting oddly and the Headmaster said he thinks they've been Obliviated. It seems to be one of the enemy's favorite tricks."

"Rule Eight," said the Defense Professor. "Any technique which is good enough to defeat me once is good enough to learn myself."

The boy smiled humorlessly. "And I once heard about an adult casting Obliviate while she was almost completely drained, so it must not take too much magic to cast. It's not even considered Unforgiveable, though I can't imagine why not. If I could've made Mr. Hagrid remember a different set of orders -"

"It is not that straightforward," said the Defense Professor. "You are not powerful enough to use the False Memory Charm, and even a simple Obliviation will stretch the edge of your current stamina. It is a dangerous art, illegal to use without Ministry authorization, and I would caution you not to use it under circumstances where it would be inconvenient to accidentally erase ten years of someone's life. I wish I could promise you that I would obtain one of those highly guarded tomes from the Department of Mysteries, and pass it to you beneath a disguised cover. But what I must actually tell you is that you will find the standard introductory text in the north-northwest stacks of the main Hogwarts library, filed under M."

"Seriously," the boy said flatly.

"Indeed."

Chapter 100 wrote:Professor Quirrell walked to Draco's form, and chanted the spell of the False Memory Charm. The Defense Professor stood there for perhaps a minute, seemingly lost to the world.

Harry had been studying Obliviations, these last couple of weeks - though he couldn't have helped cast the spells, unless he was willing to exhaust himself almost completely, and for some reason they wanted an Auror to lose every single life memory involving the color blue. But Harry had some idea, now, of the concentration which the far more difficult False Memory Charm entailed.

The trouble with rational/objectivist heroes is that, when they really, really need to, they seem to always be able to tap into bottomless wells of focus and determination, and pull off all manner of tricks that just require superhuman willpower and sufficient time to think things through.

In fairness, it's a fairly widespread phenomenon, so it's not like they're unique in this respect - it's just more glaringly obvious when the characters spend so much of their time flagging up how they're not falling for cliches, and how unrealistic the genre conventions they're flouting are...

Chapter 15 wrote:"And to answer Mr. Potter's question," Professor McGonagall went on, "it is free Transfiguration which you must never do to any living subject. There are Charms and potions which can safely, reversibly transform living subjects in limited ways. An Animagus with a missing limb will still be missing that limb after transforming, for example. Free Transfiguration is not safe. Your body will change while it is Transfigured - breathing, for example, results in a constant loss of the body's stuff to the surrounding air. When the Transfiguration wears off and your body tries to revert to its original form, it will not quite be able to do so.

Thanks for that. Much appreciated. But does that mean a living being can be Transfigured as long as the new form doesn't breathe..? I feel like there's some arse-pulling going on here.

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...Wouldn't it be silly if it turns out the Philosopher's Stone is really just Merlin himself, Transfigured? Eh, much too silly.

Jorpho wrote:Thanks for that. Much appreciated. But does that mean a living being can be Transfigured as long as the new form doesn't breathe..? I feel like there's some arse-pulling going on here.

Continuing from the end of my previous quote:

Chapter 15 wrote:That explained why he had seen such things as fat boys, or girls less than perfectly pretty. Or old people, for that matter. That wouldn't happen if you could just Transfigure yourself every morning... Harry raised his hand and tried to signal Professor McGonagall with his eyes.

"Yes, Mr. Potter?"

"Is it possible to Transfigure a living subject into a target that is static, such as a coin - no, excuse me, I'm terribly sorry, let's just say a steel ball."

Professor McGonagall shook her head. "Mr. Potter, even inanimate objects undergo small internal changes over time. There would be no visible changes to your body afterwards, and for the first minute, you would notice nothing wrong. But in an hour you would be sick, and in a day you would be dead."

MOR Transfiguration is completely different from canon, but my own mental model of MOR Transfiguration has, with one exception, remained unchanged since the early chapters (i.e., roughly since the partial Transfiguration discovery). The one exception is

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the 'shaping exercises' introduced in chapter 104 as an absurdly late Chekhov's gun.

My mental model says that it's not a problem with living subjects per se, but with subjects that are damaged by microscopic changes. For example, if you Transfigured a microprocessor to a steel ball and back, it would no longer be functional. My model says that using a stable target like a single buckyball might avoid the problem, but there have been no tests like this in story.

Well, obviously Voldemort's body will die shortly after reverting back to a "normal" shape, but by then Harry will have figured out how to restore him (fixed mentally) or, in the case of an accident, he will then just revert to his horcrux network. So, transfiguring Voldemort's isn't quite the same as anyone else.

What if someone were transfigured back to their original shape, rather than just letting the transfiguration wear off? Then when that transfiguration wore off, everything would already be in place, no?

Pfhorrest wrote:What if someone were transfigured back to their original shape, rather than just letting the transfiguration wear off? Then when that transfiguration wore off, everything would already be in place, no?

I think the principle this whole problem is based on is that each individual atom reverts to the atom(s) it was before. Transfiguring someone into their own shape gets everything as it is Transfigured into place, but not everything as it was before into place. So no, that would be every bit as bad as Transfiguring the person into something else living.

Whizbang wrote:Well, obviously Voldemort's body will die shortly after reverting back to a "normal" shape, but by then Harry will have figured out how to restore him (fixed mentally) or, in the case of an accident, he will then just revert to his horcrux network. So, transfiguring Voldemort's isn't quite the same as anyone else.

Acht! The answer is right there.

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"It would be a spell to maintain whether Harry was waking or sleeping; and later, when Harry was older and more powerful and maybe had some help, he would un-Transfigure the mindwiped Tom Riddle and heal his body with the power of the Stone."

I thought that was referring to his hands or other injuries, but un-Transfiguring side effects could also be healed.

Also, considering he's been mind-wiped, I would wonder if he would retain the capability of restoring himself at this point? It didn't sound like an automated process, even with the Resurrection Stone.

Anyway:

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Evidently he plans to hold on to the Stone. But then, why wouldn't he?

Also, I guess this means Hermione is going to be able to (temporarily) Transfigure herself any which way she chooses. Hmm.

Also, I guess this means Hermione is going to be able to (temporarily) Transfigure herself any which way she chooses. Hmm.

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Would she? If she's got the troll continual-self-transfiguration thing now, wouldn't any transfiguration of her just immediately go back to how it was before? Which, again, raises questions about how she will ever age or remember anything... unless the "self" that she is self-transfiguring back to magically updates with her new memories and organic growth and such.

A mostly unrelated, not very spoilerific idea just occurred to me.

Since transfiguration can violate conservation of mass (and therefore conservation of energy), and the philosopher's stone can make transfiguration permanent, one could in principle transfigure pretty much anything, given enough wizards pump enough magic into doing the transfigurations (and you take the time to philosophers-stone each one as they're done. Forget tearing apart the stars. Build your own stars. Make your own universe ex nihilo. (Ok, ex an-arbitrarily-small-piece-of-this-universe).

Would she? If she's got the troll continual-self-transfiguration thing now, wouldn't any transfiguration of her just immediately go back to how it was before? Which, again, raises questions about how she will ever age or remember anything... unless the "self" that she is self-transfiguring back to magically updates with her new memories and organic growth and such.

Trolls are not born as fully formed adults in any version of Potterverse as far as I know, so their ability would have to allow for natural growth in order for the species to function. As for other Transfigurations, Voldemort had one as a Transfigured false tooth.

Hold on... isn't there a spell that cancels transfigurations? I'm pretty sure there is one in canon at least. Voldemorts head could have been exploded at any time... Same would apply to Harry's transfigured ring stone. Ouch.

Hold on... isn't there a spell that cancels transfigurations? I'm pretty sure there is one in canon at least. Voldemorts head could have been exploded at any time... Same would apply to Harry's transfigured ring stone. Ouch.

Aye, "finite" has been used a couple of times (most definitely in the first experiments with Transfiguration).

Petunia bit her lip. "I can't just tell you. You'll think I'm -" She swallowed. "Listen. Michael. I wasn't - always like this -" She gestured at herself, as though to indicate her lithe form. "Lily did this. Because I - because I begged her. For years, I begged her. Lily had always been prettier than me, and I'd... been mean to her, because of that, and then she got magic, can you imagine how I felt? And I begged her to use some of that magic on me so that I could be pretty too, even if I couldn't have her magic, at least I could be pretty."

Tears were gathering in Petunia's eyes.

"And Lily would tell me no, and make up the most ridiculous excuses, like the world would end if she were nice to her sister, or a centaur told her not to - the most ridiculous things, and I hated her for it.

[Edit]Also, we have yet to see Harry bite any professors. Would have been a good(comical) answer for the Final Exam. Maybe an Omake?

Aye, "finite" has been used a couple of times (most definitely in the first experiments with Transfiguration).

I think there's supposed to be some kind of resistance that has to overcome so a transfiguration cast by a really strong caster couldn't be finite'd by a child. at least that's the version I'm going with.

Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

"there was no Quidditch team anywhere that could've defeated the Slytherins that day" - it seems implausible that this would be true, though it is a standard (irrational) trope that sufficient determination will carry the day regardless of disparity in skill...

Has there been any hint at this point as to who might be the owner of that severed arm? I guess it must be someone from Azkaban, judging from the description.

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Voldemort reached into the altar again.

For a second Harry's mind couldn't process what he was seeing, and then he saw that Voldemort was holding a human arm, severed near the shoulder; it seemed too thin, that arm.

I really want to know how Lucius gets out of this. Maybe he doesn't, and Malfoy decides he died at the hands of Voldemort, and so embarks on a new way of life with a stronger sense of purpose, and Harry has to go on without ever telling him the truth? I guess that could work.

Whizbang wrote:

"And Lily would tell me no, and make up the most ridiculous excuses, like the world would end if she were nice to her sister, or a centaur told her not to - the most ridiculous things, and I hated her for it.

"And Lily would tell me no, and make up the most ridiculous excuses, like the world would end if she were nice to her sister, or a centaur told her not to - the most ridiculous things, and I hated her for it.

Also:

Chapter 17 wrote:... I can well foresee that I am fated to sit in the Headmaster's office and hear some hilarious tale about Professor Quirrell in which you and you alone play a starring role, after which there will be no choice but to fire him. I am already resigned to it, Mr. Potter. And if this sad event takes place any earlier than the Ides of May, I will string you up by the gates of Hogwarts with your own intestines and pour fire beetles into your nose. Now do you understand me completely?"

Harry nodded, his eyes very wide. Then, after a second, "What do I get if I can make it happen on the last day of the school year?"

Re-reading from the beginning there are a whole lot of hints and foreshadowing, some of which I did notice before and some which are fun to discover now.

People on FanFiction reviews are already clamoring for a sequel. But they are suggesting something like Hermione Granger and the Methods of Rationality, or maybe about Harry and Hermione setting about rescuing Dumbledore and saving Voldemort and becoming a team to create the ideal future.

Blah.

Obviously the sequel, if there is one, will he Harry Potter and The Prison of Azkaban.

The sequel (and/or the last couple chapters of HPMOR) will be a version of the underlined bit:

Chapter 75 wrote:"It's just like a play!" sighed a third-year girl.

"A play?" said Hermione. "I'd like to see the play where anything like this happens!"

"Oh," said the third-year girl, "I was thinking of that really romantic one where there's this very nice, sweet boy who makes a Floo call, only he mispronounces his destination and stumbles out into this room full of Dark Wizards who are performing a forbidden ritual that should've stayed forever lost to time, and they're sacrificing seven victims in order to unseal this ancient horror which is supposed to grant someone a wish if it's freed, so of course the boy's presence interrupts the ritual, and as the horror is eating all the Dark Wizards and everyone is dying the boy's last thought is that he wishes he could've had a girlfriend, and the next thing you know the boy is lying in the lap of this beautiful woman whose eyes are burning with a dreadful light, only she doesn't understand anything about being human so the boy always has to stop her eating people.

Adam H wrote:and the next thing you know the boy is lying in the lap of this beautiful woman whose eyes are burning with a dreadful light, only she doesn't understand anything about being human so the boy always has to stop her eating people.

1. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality2. Harry Potter and the Imitation Game3. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Yudkowsky4. Harry Potter and the Fire Upon the Deep5. Harry Potter and the Universal Wavefunction6. Harry Potter and the End of the World7. Harry Potter and the Final Enemy

One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

I dunno, I can't really see anything living up to this, the original; it's milked pretty much everything it could reach, and I think the whole "bullies" arc was already a stretch.

Maybe something with the dismantling of the Ministry of Magic, with Umbridge as the antagonist. (We haven't seen any sign of her, have we?) But that could get into tiresome, one-sided politics.

Maybe I'll read Worms, or Carpetbaggers, as some have suggested.

jules.LT wrote:

Adam H wrote:and the next thing you know the boy is lying in the lap of this beautiful woman whose eyes are burning with a dreadful light, only she doesn't understand anything about being human so the boy always has to stop her eating people.

Jorpho wrote:Maybe something with the dismantling of the Ministry of Magic, with Umbridge as the antagonist. (We haven't seen any sign of her, have we?)

Umbridge had a minor role at Hermione's trial. This is something you'd only recognize from the HP books, not the movies. The books and HPMOR describe her as toad-faced, but that's not how she's depicted in the movie as I recall.

I like how, even though LW says this is not a single-point-of-departure story, this new twist would allow it to be one. The differences in Tom Riddle would be the single point of departure, then those differences lead Dumbledore to do the thing (inline spoiler tags ala TVtropes would be nice), and that leads to Harry's point of departure.