Recently I had been thinking how throughout college, there was this invisible barrier, almost, between Mexican and Mexican-American students. The two seemed like entirely different groups at times, and only seemed to relate nominally, with the Mexicans keeping to themselves more or less, and seeming to belong to an entirely different world entirely, while the Mexican-Americans were a lot more involved with other students, the teachers, etc. Even in high school, when everyone was a lot more cliquish, I'd notice the Mexican Mexicans huddled up together, going to prom with one another, and generally involved outside of class in other ways, usually related to family matters.

I think one moment defined this difference between the two groups better than any other: around a year ago, while waiting outside the class of one of my English courses, a Mexican student named Marco commented to someone else how he was 'the only Mexican' in the class, and how awkward it felt. This was one of those famous light bulb moments for me, and even if I had heard how different the two are, how they see one another, to actually come face-to-face almost, with someone who sees themselves as Mexican first and foremost, was something else. Clearly he meant nationally, but I think a lot of us born on this side forget just how much of a difference there is between someone born in the states and someone born on the other side. There was a book I had read once, that explained how Mexican immigrants, no matter what age they come to the States, tend to have a firmer grasp on their identity - Mexican - than Mexican-Americans, who are constantly questioning their place in the world and wondering what to call themselves.

Of course, the issue isn't nearly so black and white; there are plenty of Mexican-Americans who are very close with Mexicans, and the issues become blurred when you get those who arrived at an early age and are constantly in contact with relatives, etc. Though, it might be more obvious for someone like me, who is at least third generation on two sides, with roots going back further on the others. Most of my cousins are mixed with black or white, many not even identifying as Mexican-American, Chicano, Hispanic, Latino, etc, speaking a lick of Spanish, and never having been to Mexico, let alone knowing which part of Mexico their family is from. I met others in college who hardly interacted with non-whites at all, and got the feeling a few of them didn't even want to.

My case is a bit different than a lot of my friends, who are first and second generation Americans: while I was born and raised in the US, I spent the first three years of my life with my Mexican-born grandparents, who spoke only Spanish. A lot of early friends were Mexican, and so were the programs, events, music, and cuisines I was exposed to. When I moved in with my parents, who were both second-generation Chicanos, it was to a middle class neighborhood with hardly any other colored people, save a few professional black Americans and maybe one Japanese-American family. Spanish came to a halt immediately, American culture was stressed, and a lot of the kids in the neighborhood kept to themselves, yet, I was still exposed to Mexicanisms at a nearby Catholic church, occasional visits to the grandparents, and at school. Sometimes I think if it weren't for this constant reinforcement of values and exposure from Mexican immigrants and more recent Americans, I'd be completely white-washed and know nothing of my roots, like a lot of those raised in the nicer, whiter, parts of town.

Long story short, I've always felt like a bit of an outsider from ALL groups, whether they be Mexican, American, or Chicano, and instead, jumping from one to the other, seeing a part of myself in each, and taking back whatever parts felt familiar. I sometimes feel like an adoptee - if my first and second Mexican-American friends hadn't taken me in, I'd probably have found another culture to latch onto and assimilate into. I remember childhood classmates telling me, 'You're not Mexican. What are you, really?' This might have made me even more sensitive and aware of the difference between groups and their dynamics - that's why I'm curious as to what your experiences might be with Mexican immigrants, since I know my story doesn't fit for everyone.

Do you notice a divide? Why does it exist? Is there any way we can bridge the gap and come closer? Anyone is welcomed to answer, offer suggestions, ask questions of their own, etc.

I think its a case by case basis. Sure each can be click'ish and each can think they are better then the other. I have seen the mexicans who have been here a while try to look down on other Mexicans I have seen Mexican americans look down on Mexicans and vice versa. Then i have seen them interact almost inseparably .

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Yeah, it really all depends. I think it can even vary amongst people in the same families.
My sisters went to high school with mostly white kids and Koreans, so they really didnt have nearly as much contact with Mexicans or Mexican-Americans as myself and my younger brother.

If you want to know why a "divide' exists, its the same reason a divide exists between Africans from Africa and Africa-Americans or Koreans and Korean-Americans. They're from two different cultures.

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__________________"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
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If you want to know why a "divide' exists, its the same reason a divide exists between Africans from Africa and Africa-Americans or Koreans and Korean-Americans. They're from two different cultures.

I wouldn't compare African or Korean immigrants to Mexican immigrants since Africa and Korea are so far away from the US and Mexico is right there...

Furthermore, the relationship between the US and Mexico is a unique one that can't really be compared with any other country and its immigrants because of the history between the two countries and the proximity of the home country to the immigrants.

To the original question, I believe a lot of the tension between Mexicans in the US has to do with US interference in Mexico and was caused by several different waves of immigrants leaving Mex for the US at different times. You start off with the Bracero Program of the 1940's that brought many Mexicans over due to needed work because of the war. The children of these immigrants were the ones who were part of the Chicano Movement of the 1960's and these people fought hard to fit in and be accepted. Much like the Irish and Italians early in the century, Americans looked down upon people keeping ties with their home countries so it's socially enforced to lose ties. Same goes for Mexicans, and by the 80's, a lot of them had lost ties to Mexico.

However, in the 1980's, when the peso was devaluated, another wave of Mexicans came to the US. While the ones from the Bracero Program were already a few generations deep, a new wave of immigrants came and weren't necessarily accepted by the existing Mexican immigrants who had already fought to be accepted. Tensions grew because perhaps one group felt that they had put in the work to become "American" while the newcomers are straight up paisa all over again. Throw in the wave of immigration that came after NAFTA was put in place in the 90's, and you have three seperate major waves of immigration from Mexico that came...not to mention the ones that came in between all of that. This is key when it comes to understanding tension...there are those who relate to the United States more and those who relate to Mexico more.

When you have a society and culture that doesn't embrace being different and only wants a uniform society, there is going to be tension among immigrants, especially from Mexico due to proximity and numbers alone.

I wouldn't compare African or Korean immigrants to Mexican immigrants since Africa and Korea are so far away from the US and Mexico is right there...

First of all, it's only "right there" if you're talking about immigrants in the Southwest. There are Mexicans living up in the Pacific Northwest and the Northeast as well.
Of course there are many nuances and differences between the groups I gave as an example, but my point still stands; that it's a clash of cultures.
Maybe Cubans versus Cuban-Americans would have been a better example?

__________________
“The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in
seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less.”― Socrates

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee

My point is, the Mexican and Mexican-American situation is unique and shouldn't be compared to any other country. And if a Mexican lives in the Pacific Northwest, Mexico is still closer than Korea or Africa, like you gave in your example.

When I first read the title and skimmed through your post, I was like no, not really. I think the differences are dependent upon the level of education. Let me explain myself.

I am a not a first generation Mexican American. I actually don't know what I am. I was born in Mexico, but I have been in the states since I was in first grade. However, since I am a legal resident, I visit Mexico quite often. Throughout Elementary - High School twice a year, and Summers were spent there almost in their entirety. I mention this because this made me different from other Mexican students who were here illegally. It also made me different than first generation Mexicans who had a little bit less of a tie in Mexico and definitely more different than second and third generation Mexican Americans. However, since I was in elementary in a community that has a lot of apartment complexes and a few residential homes we were all pretty mixed and not too greatly divided. We were friends despite that. Also it is important to note that I was in bilingual from 1st to 3rd grade, and had many of the same friends throughout elementary.

For middle school I went to more diverse magnet school. That was my first exposure to white and Asian classmates. (We had a few blacks in my elementary). This was also my first exposure to Mexicans that did not speak Spanish. Whaaat? lol.

Anyway I am losing track of the questions originally presented.

I notice the divide more greatly here in college. For example Mexicans that were born in Mexico like me join organizations such as the MCC Mexican Culture Council, etc. People who are first or second generation with close ties will join organizations like Hispanic Health Professions, LULAC, Hispanic Student Association. They will also join Hispanic fraternities. Second and third generations with less ties will blend in with White students a bit more, join organizations like cheerleading teams, or white frats etc. That is the divide that I see.

When it comes to me, I've explored here and there. I have been a member of TSPA (Texas Student Psychological Associaiton) That one was diverse since it was based upon major and not race. I also joined WIP (Women in Psychology) that one was more white and I met a few Hispanics. I also attended a few HSA meetings. I also joined social frat, APO and there was a VERY big divide there between wealthier whites, middle class whites, middle class Hispanics and other minorities, not to say that some friendships intersected.

Ultimately I found my place with social work council. I rather base my membership around a common interest rather than race.

I also have friends who don't speak Spanish and they definitely have greater identity issues.

Now to address your questions:

Do you notice a divide?

Yes, I already addressed this.

Why does it exist?

Cultural differences, different values. It is all an assimilation process and all generations are at different stages of it. I am not saying people should assimilate, I believe in embracing both cultures, but truth of the matter is that assimilation happens. So there is a gap because they are at different stages, and have different experiences.

Is there any way we can bridge the gap and come closer?

I think that if we join organizations that are centered around a common interest rather than around race then I believe that can benefit us.

__________________

“If you want something you’ve never had,
you must be willing to do something you’ve never done.”
-Thomas Jefferson

Just for clarification, when I say 'first generation', I mean the first generation of American immigrants, while second would mean the children of immigrants, third, the grandchildren of immigrants, etc. I know some people use 'first generation' to refer to those born in the States, and there's some confusion there, but in this context, first generation is used for those born in Mexico - period.

We really should have terms like Japanese Issei, Nisei, Sansei, and Yonsei, for simplicity's sake.

Anyway, the Mexicans I'm referring to are those who obviously haven't been here long, have thick accents, obviously feel out of their element in multicultural settings, prefer to socialize with family, and most likely interact mostly with other immigrants. I guess you can say like most immigrants, they too are a bit... clannish?

In fact, that's one things I've always had a hard time understanding, and the answer is so obvious: when I'd go visit my Mexican-American friends, their parents would be, what's the word, standoffish? They were immigrants, obviously, probably didn't have much contact outside of their communities, but they didn't even seem to make an effort to get to know us (our group was somewhat mixed, with something like three third generations, one second, but half black, another first, and one half white who knows how long his mother's family had been in the States), which I thought rude at the time. Basically, if they weren't working, they were involved with family in one way or another, and we were neither. It was just strange having to conduct business outside the home and without so much as a glance from the parents or other family members.

Somehow, I don't quite relate to those Mexican-American friends of mine with immigrant parents, yet also not with those I knew who were completely Americanized and knew nothing of their heritage; somewhere in between, possibly. My own father, who has been going since he was a young boy, felt a lot more comfortable going to Mexico, compared to me, who didn't go for my first time until I was seventeen. Even then, I was shocked at just how out of place I felt, and it wasn't until I overheard some American tourists at the Zócalo that I felt some sense of familiarity and comfort. That was a revelation, being someone who never felt comfortable aligning himself with the Anglo majority, seeing Mexico in a more idealistic light.

Culturally, I'd say we're closer to one another than say, African Americans and Africans or white Americans and Western Europeans. If anything, it might be the whole immigrant experience that creates the largest walls, never mind the fact that there are Mexican immigrants from more affluent backgrounds who assimilate in different ways than say, peasant farmers from southern Mexico. There's quite a bit of diversity among Mexican-Americans, but I think it's easier for those who identify as such to find common ground, since we face a similar situation in the States. My ex, who was born in Mexico and illegal might have a radically different upbringing, but we were both in the States, trying to make it, possibly would have had a future together, so everything else came in second place. You'd think distinctions like geography, class, and specific racial backgrounds would matter less the longer a person's family has been in the US. Plus, there's the fact that while Mexican culture influences the US, so does American culture influence Mexico...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Mexican user on soy who was studying in the US? If I remember, he had quite a bit of clashes with members here, and even I thought of him as arrogant and quick to attack others. Javi, Xavi, or something... it's not too important, just thought it would make a good example of some differences in how Mexicans view us and vice versa.

I really hate to make this conversation so personal, but it wouldn't feel complete if I left out my feeling detached recently, and that's one reason I made the thread. We've had arguments, my father and I: he sees himself as Mexican, although he was born in CA, and is extremely defensive when it comes to all things Mexican. He insists I call myself Mexican, too, but I can't, and wouldn't, even if I could. I'm just me. Still, I'd like there to be at least some contact with Mexicans, whether living in the States or abroad, I'm just not sure who to approach them. Should I do so from a purely American standpoint, as say, an Anglo American would? Obviously, most are aware of the differences, and take the term Mexican very serious. Then, downplaying my own experiences with Mexican culture might seem alienating, almost like distancing myself, and that's the last thing I'd want. *shrugs*

Just for clarification, when I say 'first generation', I mean the first generation of American immigrants, while second would mean the children of immigrants, third, the grandchildren of immigrants, etc. I know some people use 'first generation' to refer to those born in the States, and there's some confusion there, but in this context, first generation is used for those born in Mexico - period.

I am still confused by your use of first generation. Would that make my parents and I on the same generation since we both migrated here at the same time, even though they were 30 and I was 6?
Also the official term first generation means that the child has at least one foreign born parent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by niaV

Anyway, the Mexicans I'm referring to are those who obviously haven't been here long, have thick accents, obviously feel out of their element in multicultural settings, prefer to socialize with family, and most likely interact mostly with other immigrants. I guess you can say like most immigrants, they too are a bit... clannish?

What you seem to be describing is natural human behavior, people stick with their kind regardless of immigrant status. If you placed a rich white kid, whose family has been here 5 or 6 generations, in a class of first generation Mexican Americans he will still obviously feel out of his element. He probably prefers to socialize with his family and other rich white kids who get him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by niaV

In fact, that's one things I've always had a hard time understanding, and the answer is so obvious: when I'd go visit my Mexican-American friends, their parents would be, what's the word, standoffish? They were immigrants, obviously, probably didn't have much contact outside of their communities, but they didn't even seem to make an effort to get to know us (our group was somewhat mixed, with something like three third generations, one second, but half black, another first, and one half white who knows how long his mother's family had been in the States), which I thought rude at the time. Basically, if they weren't working, they were involved with family in one way or another, and we were neither. It was just strange having to conduct business outside the home and without so much as a glance from the parents or other family members.

You are generalizing one experience. Maybe these parents were just unfriendly, and that has nothing to do with immigrant status. I have friends who have immigrant parents and they are very friendly. Also you mention that they were either working or involved with family, it doesn't sound like they have all this leisure time. However, it is true that Mexicans value family over friendships, so perhaps this has something to do with it. In addition and in my personal opinion when a Mexican mom does not like someone's friend she will not want the friendship to continue. So be flattered that you were at least welcomed into their home.

Quote:

Culturally, I'd say we're closer to one another than say, African Americans and Africans or white Americans and Western Europeans. If anything, it might be the whole immigrant experience that creates the largest walls, never mind the fact that there are Mexican immigrants from more affluent backgrounds who assimilate in different ways than say, peasant farmers from southern Mexico. There's quite a bit of diversity among Mexican-Americans, but I think it's easier for those who identify as such to find common ground, since we face a similar situation in the States. My ex, who was born in Mexico and illegal might have a radically different upbringing, but we were both in the States, trying to make it, possibly would have had a future together, so everything else came in second place. You'd think distinctions like geography, class, and specific racial backgrounds would matter less the longer a person's family has been in the US. Plus, there's the fact that while Mexican culture influences the US, so does American culture influence Mexico...

Yes....

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Mexican user on soy who was studying in the US? If I remember, he had quite a bit of clashes with members here, and even I thought of him as arrogant and quick to attack others. Javi, Xavi, or something... it's not too important, just thought it would make a good example of some differences in how Mexicans view us and vice versa.

yes, that member was all about hanging out with White people. He said that they were a lot more open to learning about him and his heritage than were 'cholos'. He had a huge culture shock when he encountered the Chicano culture. He thought 'cholos' as he kept calling them, lazy and uneducated. However, he understood nothing of the systematic oppression. He himself was educated and had a wider world experience, and probably had some kind of money or means to study abroad so it makes sense that he related to other educated people with means.

Quote:

I really hate to make this conversation so personal, but it wouldn't feel complete if I left out my feeling detached recently, and that's one reason I made the thread. We've had arguments, my father and I: he sees himself as Mexican, although he was born in CA, and is extremely defensive when it comes to all things Mexican. He insists I call myself Mexican, too, but I can't, and wouldn't, even if I could. I'm just me. Still, I'd like there to be at least some contact with Mexicans, whether living in the States or abroad, I'm just not sure who to approach them. Should I do so from a purely American standpoint, as say, an Anglo American would? Obviously, most are aware of the differences, and take the term Mexican very serious. Then, downplaying my own experiences with Mexican culture might seem alienating, almost like distancing myself, and that's the last thing I'd want. *shrugs*

Hmmm... Well how do you identify yourself? You don't have to call yourself Mexican if you don't feel the term fits or don't feel comfortable with it. Do you use Chicano? It seems like it applies, yet it has a Mexican connection, does that make you feel uncomfortable? Do you feel more comfortable identifying yourself simply as an American? Unless you're native people would still ask where are your 'roots'. I ask my white friends their background all of the time.

__________________

“If you want something you’ve never had,
you must be willing to do something you’ve never done.”
-Thomas Jefferson

To my understanding... 1st generation "Mexican American" or "Chicano" is the 1st generation born in the US to immigrant parents.

I've also heard of the term 1/2 or .5 generation "Mexican American" "Chicano" with regards to children brought to the US at an early age, which have basically been raised the same as would be 1st generation children.

I am still confused by your use of first generation. Would that make my parents and I on the same generation since we both migrated here at the same time, even though they were 30 and I was 6?
Also the official term first generation means that the child has at least one foreign born parent.

Foreign born naturalized citizens are also referred to as 'first generation'. So yes, by definition, if both you and your parents came migrated at once, you'd both be first generation Americans in this context. Check Wiki if you'd like; there's no one real cut and dry answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _aztec_princess_

What you seem to be describing is natural human behavior, people stick with their kind regardless of immigrant status. If you placed a rich white kid, whose family has been here 5 or 6 generations, in a class of first generation Mexican Americans he will still obviously feel out of his element. He probably prefers to socialize with his family and other rich white kids who get him.

Yeah, I was just shocked at how much of a difference there seems to be between the two, at least from a Mexican standpoint. I think for a lot of them, Chicanos are as foreign as a black American, while we might see things differently. In truth, we might feel more Mexican than we already are, and only find out after seeing how much of a gap there seems to be between the two identities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _aztec_princess_

You are generalizing one experience. Maybe these parents were just unfriendly, and that has nothing to do with immigrant status. I have friends who have immigrant parents and they are very friendly. Also you mention that they were either working or involved with family, it doesn't sound like they have all this leisure time. However, it is true that Mexicans value family over friendships, so perhaps this has something to do with it. In addition and in my personal opinion when a Mexican mom does not like someone's friend she will not want the friendship to continue. So be flattered that you were at least welcomed into their home.

First, it wasn't 'one experience', or I wouldn't have bothered mentioning it at all. It's happened often enough from middle and high school for me to begin wondering and proposing my own explanations, finally asking about it on a Chicano forum. Well over eight different, unrelated families.

And yes... I didn't always get through the front door. In a lot of cases, it was barely on the driveway, and for a short period of time before being ushered away by my friends.

The best explanation I got, and this is only for one of them, was that his dad was an 'asshole' and probably didn't speak enough English to communicate comfortably, and me, not enough Spanish. Language probably played a huge part, since my friends and I spoke all English, and the families probably were well aware even before our visits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _aztec_princess_

yes, that member was all about hanging out with White people. He said that they were a lot more open to learning about him and his heritage than were 'cholos'. He had a huge culture shock when he encountered the Chicano culture. He thought 'cholos' as he kept calling them, lazy and uneducated. However, he understood nothing of the systematic oppression. He himself was educated and had a wider world experience, and probably had some kind of money or means to study abroad so it makes sense that he related to other educated people with means.

To be fair, he wouldn't the first Mexican I've talked to who shared these views. A lot of Mexicans are... nationalistic and language purists of sorts, who think of the various Chicano and Spanglish dialects are watered down, uneducated, and improper forms of Spanish that have no place in this world. Pretty ignorant, considering how different Mexican Spanish is from that of Spain, or other countries throughout the Americas.

But even with Spanish aside, there do seem to be a lot of negative associations Mexicans have of Mexican-Americans, and yes, lazy, uneducated, criminal, are just a few of them. Ironically, both sides see the other as arrogant in their own way.

I never got the chance to talk to my relatives down in DF about the topic in-depth, but it wouldn't surprise me if they shared similar views, being privileged and having little contact with Americans, in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _aztec_princess_

Hmmm... Well how do you identify yourself? You don't have to call yourself Mexican if you don't feel the term fits or don't feel comfortable with it. Do you use Chicano? It seems like it applies, yet it has a Mexican connection, does that make you feel uncomfortable? Do you feel more comfortable identifying yourself simply as an American? Unless you're native people would still ask where are your 'roots'. I ask my white friends their background all of the time.

Truth be told, I don't have any strong attachments to any of the labels, and if it were possible, would free myself of them entirely. I use whatever fits in a context, for instance, I'd use Chicano on a site like Soy, or in a more politically charged environment. If someone from say, Almaty, met me online and asked my nationality, I'd simply say, 'American' and maybe that I'm from CA. And if an American asked of my background, I'd tell them Mexican descent. I've used Hispanic and Latino in conversations for the sake of simplicity, too, usually when I'm forced to group myself with several others from Spanish-speaking background.

Either way, I came to sites like Soy to get in touch with my roots, and it has been an ideal starting point. I've never cared too much for the politics behind the term, and didn't even hear it until I was eighteen or so, and assumed you were either Mexican or Mexican-American, with little in between. At first, organizations like the Brown Berets and MEChA came to mind, but now I know there's a lot more to it.

I've been putting it off for years, running from it, but it's about time, I think, to come face-to-face with Mexico, on my own terms, and decide what it means to me. Reading through hundreds of books, starting topics like these, communicating with others on the net for hours aren't going to do the deed for me, so I think it's time I took the plunge and get involved. I refuse to be a silent observer forever, and if white Americans can become fully immersed in the country and the culture, I should, too. If you've ever read Mexican Enough, that's what's in store.

Sorry for the short/quick reply. I'm a bit rushed at the moment, and couldn't wait.

to me it's pretty clear, of course there's an invisible barrier. To be a mexican and to be mexican-american is pretty different, it's about the society, it's pretty different, i am mexican and i have coexisted with chicanos, mexicans living in US and US people. So i think i have perceived how some "parts" of US people are in there, in chicanos, Someone who is mexican is pretty difeferent just becasuse of the country, no matter how people is exposed to mexican culture since being kids and all the stuff, american society is way different and chicanos are there everyday with them, it's impossible to mix it up, it's just that. mexican-americans have a little gringo in their interior, no offense, no saying it as an offense but as a truth, it's inevitable, jus tlike people- mestizos- in mexico are way too different to indigenous people. it's about the society you live in, you become part of that, indigenous are their own society, with their own rules, mexicans as well, and chicanos equal, they know who is Carlos Chavez, mexicans not many, why they would? he doesn't mean nothing to them, he's from another world? you know what i mean?

__________________'Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand -chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO, What a Ride'