Why I Don’t Whey: Lacto-fermentation Without Starters

I would have liked the title of this piece to be “Stop the Insanity!!!!!” but I realize that that could be construed as overstatement. I do feel pretty strongly about this topic, though. If you want the short version, here it is (all caps necessary, cuz I am a little bit of a ranter when it comes to this topic): YOU DO NOT NEED TO USE WHEY, OR ANY OTHER STARTER, TO FERMENT VEGETABLES, AND USING A STARTER COULD ACTUALLY HURT THE QUALITY OF YOUR FERMENT.

WHY NO WHEY

Those who have looked at the current science will all agree, when it comes to veggies, whey ain’t it. The bacteria that we need for vegetable fermentation live in the soil. They are already ON the vegetables when they’re harvested, so adding a starter is, well, redundant (although that’s not entirely accurate. See “Microbial Diversity” below). The proportion of lactic acid bacteria present on pre-harvested veggies is actually quite small. When the vegetables are harvested, however, some cell walls break, which frees up nutrients for the lactic acid bacteria and gives them the fuel to multiply. Give those naturally present, procreative bacteria the conditions in which to multiply, and you’ve got yourself a ferment.

I let this filmjolk yogurt go for a long time in order to show you what a very separated yogurt looks like! They whey could also be on the top. In this case, it’s in the middle.

WHY DO THEY WHEY

So why do some sources say that whey is necessary or desirable? Sources that says it’s necessary are just wrong. I don’t say that lightly about anything fermentation-related, ever, but it’s just true. If you ferment this way, there’s a chance that you learned to ferment through Weston A. Price or another traditional diet organization. On working, old-style farms that combine vegetable production and dairy-farming, whey fermentation of vegetables makes a little more sense. Basically in that case, it’s a way to avoid waste. Although the whey isn’t necessary, using whey can make for a speedier ferment and if you have too much of it, why not use it for something rather than toss it?* While I can get behind just about any practice that is intended to prevent waste, there are a few downsides, or potential downsides, to using whey.

Once strained off, whey can look clearish, yellow, grey or white.

THE DOWNSIDES OF USING WHEY TO FERMENT VEGETABLES

1. Slime – I don’t know the reason for this, but vegetables fermented with whey sometimes end up slimy. If I had to venture a guess, it would be that the whey, if using whey like kefir whey, contained too much yeast and the yeast was too active, which is what can sometimes happen when fermenting with sweeter vegetables. The other possibility I can think of is that fermentation simply happened too quickly with whey as a starter and the vegetables actually started to break down. Obviously neither case yields a particularly delicious ferment.

2. Microbial Diversity – One of the reasons that I personally ferment is to introduce as much good, microbial diversity into my body as possible. I’m well aware that we don’t know what every single strain of lactic acid bacteria does for us and I’m willing to wait somewhat patiently while science decodes all of that for us. In the meantime, though, I certainly don’t ferment vegetables only to end up colonizing my gut with one or two specific strains a la a certain mass-produced yogurt brands. Even with good, heirloom yogurts, you’re getting the strains native to that culture, rather than the strains native to the soil. I believe that by introducing as much, diverse bacteria into my system as possible, I’ll be supporting internal biodiversity and given all the stupid, hard work we’ve done to eradicate our microbes of all kinds, I think that’s a very good thing. To that end, I eat a broad variety of microbial rich foods. I eat misos and pickled vegetables of all kinds. I drink kombucha and eat yogurt (and of course I throw some wine and cheese in there for good measure). Sure, there’s some overlap, but eating a broad variety of ferments gives me better odds of attaining a veritable Amazonian microbiota. SO, when whey is used as a starter, the dominant bacteria become the whey bacteria, otherwise known as the bacteria that you were already getting from eating whatever thing the whey came from. Why not err on the side of lots of different kinds of microbes?

American Gothic? Nope! It’s just a bit over over fermented kefir and filmjolk, each with its own layer of whey to offer up.

3. A Lower Quality Ferment – There is a UN-FAO food fermentation study that I originally saw cited in The Art of Fermentation. The authors make a pretty brief yet compelling case against using a starter in vegetable ferments. The case in question is sauerkraut, and the starter used is juice from a completed batch of sauerkraut, but the logic of why this is problematic seems simple to apply to other vegetable ferments and starters. The study’s authors found that a starter with higher acidity would result in a “lower quality” kraut, while a starter with a lower acidity wouldn’t have a negative impact (other than leaving the kraut with a less crispy texture), but didn’t seem to help anything either. When the possibility is neutral or negative, why bother?

WHEN TO WHEY

Strain over a fine mesh strainer. If you’re using a very wet yogurt, a layer or two of cheesecloth helps keep the solids out.

Perhaps you’ve seen that I do use starters for ferments sometimes. I will use a starter (whey, rejuvelac, brine from a finished ferment, water kefir, etc) to ferment in certain situations. Fruit, sodas, things that have already been cooked (certain condiments) but that is by no means my primary fermentation habit, and I never use whey (or any other starter) to ferment straight vegetables.

If you adore fermented ketchup (or maybe thats the only way you can get those good bugs into your four-year-old’s guts) or must have a probiotic, rather than a yeasty, soda by all means, go nuts with starter experimentation. Just know that when it comes to your krauts, kimchis and pickles, it’s better to save your whey for another delicious use!

*Whey is protein rich and flavorful and is great used in dressings, stocks, stews, smoothies or as baking liquid, just to name a few.

Comments

I totally agree. I spent a year testing ferments side-by-side adding a little whey to the brine and not. In a few cases, the whey made no difference and in the bulk of the cases, the ferment wasn’t as pleasing. Also, Weston A. Price are funded by big dairy so one must be a little careful about what they assert.

Good timing on this one; I’m releasing an episode on starter cultures this Friday. I’ll be sure to mention this post too. Funny thing is that I was actually trying to search for something on pH and my address bar accidentally autofilled phickle.com instead; when I saw this as the top headline, I just had to read. Back to pH research now…

I totally agree, I come from Switzerland where we a long tradition of fermentation and pickling in my family and we have never used whey for vegetables, they go slimy and frankly they taste “weird”. Mind you experimentation is the mother of all fun, but still, some things are just not meant to be! Love your posts and your sharing attitude. 🙂

Thanks so much, Francoise. I completely agree! Sometimes, we need to discover that things don’t work for ourselves :-). Still, I like to spread the word about my own experiences.
PS-I lived in Geneva for two years! I’ve been following you forever on the social medias and I had no idea you were Swiss!

Hi Amanda! What a small world ! Geneva is where I was born but I hail form Neuchatel, up the road near Neuchatel lake.
Thanks didn’t realise you were following 🙂 love your website, love your recipes and I try and make as many as possible. Am actually doing a Preserving workshop in 2 weeks so you are on the list of website to absolutely visit for more info 🙂 Hopefully we will meet at some point as I am moving to the East coast in a few years but I come to Boston every year (and I do realise you are not even that close but I know you move around, so I keep a close eye on any events:) Have a fab day. Fx

So happy to read this blog… I am allergic to everything that come from milk and feel great that you are “on my side” regarding this subject. For me… a plant is a plant and an animal is an animal and they should not go together in our fermentations… more… I am vegan so, using an animl product as a ferment was making me unconfortable. So, really happy to see that I was right… in some way…

What about just using the wild fermentation approach. I have done that with great success. It is so good and so easy. I believe as you do that we have sadly killed off the good bacteria and replaced it with chemicals, and I so my passion is to make the microbes come back and inhabit my body in whatever I can make. I love this and so so glad I just found your site. I am excited to learn more. Thank you and I also love your philosophy…I could not agree more. I whey once and it was awful and never did that again. I am vegan also and this just fits for me…..

I’ve always felt whey shouldn’t belong in vegetable ferments. But have used it because that was how I was originally taught. I have since started using commercial probiotic tablets. That is a starter you didn’t mention.

No starters are necessary, and for the same reasons I describe in the post, using them could result in an incomplete fermentation. There is really no need, since the vegetables themselves are capable of fermenting without any kind of starter added. You should definitely ferment the way that you like best, but you may want to give it a try with salt and vegetables alone!

Hi Amanda,
I wonder how you ferment those vegetables. Would you give me your recipe? Do I just put any vegetables that I like and fill up with water and put them in a closely sealed container for 3-4 days? or? Please let me know. Thank you so much.

That’s basically the same thing as far as biodiversity goes since you’re only getting the strains of bacteria that are in the probiotic tablet that way rather than any of the kinds that would come with the vegetables.

I tried some of the Nourishing Traditions veggie ferments and got slimy, unappealing outcomes. It put me off trying more. Then I read Wild Fermentation. I got brave (NT made me feel without-whey ferments were unpredictable and almost unhealthy) and tried Kim chi. Whoa Doggies! What a difference! NO slime factor at all. I now make kim chi for my friends and family every 2-3 months with rave reviews. I have changed the veggie combinations with great results, as well.

My new project is gonna hafta wait for spring. I am planning to use wild-crafted ingredients like fiddle neck ferns, cow parsnip, nettle and the like to make a truly wild ferment kim chi.

Hi, I haven’t tried Kimchi yet and really want too!!! Would love to have your recipe, if
you share it. Thank you, it has been intimidating but so fun, its like an experiment
each time, and each time I get a little more confident. I just today chopped up red
cabbage, carrots, an apple, and this was different, the recipe called for parsley and spinach. So its on my counter and I always hope it turns out. I put in about 2 1/2 TBL
of salt. Thats always a mystery too, on how much to use. Happy fermenting..:)

I would like to point out, though, that if you live in a warmer, more mold-prone environment (I’m in Southern FL) whey can make fermentation possible. Even for veggies. Where we are, most of the time if I don’t use whey, I end up with a moldy, bad ferment. With whey — and I’m talking one Tablespoon for 8 quarts of cabbage/sauerkraut — I end up with a beautiful ferment!

Only in the winter months can I effectively ferment without whey where I live. I think that adding that little bit of bacteria gives my veggies enough umph to fight off the mold long enough for the fermentation process to start!

Hi, has anyone ever tried organic grass fed whey powdered?? I have not used it
because I was afraid after the one time I used regular whey and it was truly awful, but I am guessing some people are having success or it would not be recommended. I would like to know if I ever decided to, which I don’t think I will, can I use the powdered healthy version?

When I first discovered fermented vegitables, I was told that dairy starters were unsuitable because the cultures fed on lactose and maybe some casine. This post is the only other source I’ve found saying to avoid whey, but even here you still seem to imply that whey cultures would react to other sugars.

Given the revelation that you can make yoghurt from coconut and almond mild, both without lactose, I’m ready to accept that the reasoning given behind the right might have been misguided, but I like to hear the opinions of people who have been pickling longer, is adding whey just adding bacteria that will die?

Also I’ve recently found recipes calling for either whey or pickle juice to ferment mayonase, with lemon juice being the only source of sugar has anyone got any ideas as to what could possibly be fermenting there?

So I can tell you that whey will for sure ferment other sugars than lactose. Batches of homemade condiments and sodas that contain no dairy at all, ferment very vigorously with added whey. The same is true for certain cultures that may prefer sucrose. They can digest other sugars (including lactose) but it may not be their preferred food source for the long term. Since whey additions are usually one-offs, this isn’t really a problem.
For me, the consideration isn’t whether it works (it does) but whether it’s necessary (it isn’t).
In the case of mayo, very good point. There isn’t a whole lot there to be consumed, as fat and protein aren’t going to readily convert. I think that’s more a case of the mayo ingredients being cultured by the addition of a starter.

So if whey is bad could I add in some juice from one ferment to kickstart another. Ie. A teaspoon of Juice from purple cabbage ferment into turnip ferment? Or a teaspoon of juice from a beet ferment into a peeled carrot ferment to avoid the bitters of the skin?

You can use whatever you’d like, including whey. My point is just that no starter at all is necessary and all will give you a worse result than simply using the bacteria that are already present on the vegetables. No inoculation of any kind is necessary or desirable for a quality fermented vegetable. I hope that helps clarify!

You right. Why complicate a simple process by adding whey. If you never tried it, dont use it. Results can be unpredictable. Just pay attention to:
Temperature, Salt content, Water quality and zero oxygen environment.
That will do the trick. Just keep it simple. make it exotic by using mixed vegetable adding color appeal.

Thank you so much for this post ! I want to start fermenting veggies, but when I read the instructions in Nourishing Traditions, I am always thrown off with the whey. I’d prefer not to use it, she doesn’t state why she uses it, and I’ve always wondered if I will get an inferior product (with less or inferior microbial diversity) if I don’t use it.

Well, this is a thought-provokin article. We started usin whey ta ferment our vegetables so we didn’t have ta use sa much salt. Some things are better salty, like sauerkraut; others, radishes, for example just taste better without as much salt. So I guess we use whey to make sure we don’t lose any of our fermented vegetables ta bad mold. As far as your remarks about havin a plethora a bacteria in th ferments. Our experience is this. We make kefir and we’ve found that the yeasts and bacteria in kefir pretty much take over everything in th kitchen. We are fanatics about cleanliness but try as we might, when we ferment other things we wind up with stuff like carbonated 5 proof yogurt. I think what happens is what happens in cheese makin caves a particular strain of organism with eventually win out and that causes the cheeses to all taste the same. This is a good thing for cheese makin but maybe not so good for fermentin other vegetables. The point is we don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing but we’re tryin ta let it work for us. If we were sure of our ferments would we use whey in everything? No, but we don’t use whey in everything now, just in those things we don’t want to put as much salt in.

I have some yogurt straining right now (a gallon has yielded more than half a gallon of whey.) I asked what to do with it, and facto-fermenting veggies was suggested. I am NOT a bread baker, so I won’t be using it in baking. Do you have suggestions on how I CAN use whey constructively (and in a non-grain related setting)? Thanks so much. It was interesting to read this article and comments.

I don’t use whey at all (it is unnecessary and can be detrimental to a vegetable ferment). If I were using whey, commercial whey powder would not be the way to go. It would need to be dehydrated at a very cool temp and unadulterated in most other ways to work as a fermentation culture. But again, whey isn’t necessary or recommended. The vegetables have all they need to do the fermenting!

Interesting article. I’ve been reading books with whey as the starter for most recipes and wondered if there was another way. I know that somewhere in the world, people are fermenting without whey. Now that I think about it, I made a lemonade out of fresh sour orange juice….left it on the counter by mistake and a few days later I had a fizzy lemon soda. That counts as fermentation right? I ended up trusting nature and drinking it.

What’s your opinion on using water kefir as a starter? (Is it just the dairy aspect of whey that makes the veggies slimy?) It’s not quite local veggie season yet so I’m stuck with grocery store vegetables and am not sure they’ll have enough bacteria to get a good ferment going.

I would say the same thing applies in the desert, in terms of ferment quality and risk of Kahm. You can let things ferment for less time, or start them at room temp and move them to the fridge after a few days, but adding whey is always going to limit microbial diversity in your diet and will likely have the effects outlined in the FAO report.

I hope that helps! One thing I learned from a fermenting friend in Puerto Rico: a drop of grapefruit seed extract on the surface of a ferment that has some Kahm will prevent the Kahm yeast from going crazy!

Hello, thanks for the article, I think whey in liquid form is poor in proteins, whey as used in bodybuilding is dehydrated concentrated whey IIRC. I might give a chance to salsa fermented in whey to check first hand if it’s so untasty or not, but I ended up the read wondering what no-whey starters would be used for veg-salsa fermentation (because assuming they are poor in soil bacteria to start with).

Veg salsa isn’t any weaker in soil bacteria than any other mix of unpeeled veggies, so I always make mine wild. I wouldn’t use powdered whey as a substitute for liquid whey under any circumstances (it’s possible it was cooked and there are generally undesirable additives).

Sure! I would stick to veggies that aren’t too sweet and do well without salt. So root veggies, but avoid carrots and beets (you’ll probably get Kahm yeast with those). Veggies that are naturally saltier (celery and celery root come to mind) are great choices. Be aware that whey isn’t going to yield the same probiotic profile that fermenting without whey will, and that veggies fermented with whey are more prone to texture issues and the aforementioned Kahm yeast.

We are considering lacto fermentation for our poultry feed. Have you done any fermentation with grains? Would the addition of salt/seaweed be needed or helpful or is all the necessary good bacteria already there?

I don’t know much about this for chickens (other than that people do it and it’s supposed to be good which somehow doesn’t = science :-)). I do ferment my grains by soaking them. Sometimes I add a starter, sometimes I don’t (either way they do ferment. I like the way they taste, and the science seems to support that they are generally more digestible when fermented, so I’ll take it!

I know that Branden Byers, who used to do a fermentation podcast called “FermUp,” was really into this at one point, but I can’t remember the details. I believe he either fed his own chickens fermented feed or dealt with people who did. You may want to hit him up and or check out his site.

One thing I can tell you is that the LAB come from the soil, so they’re already on everything that grows there. The way the grain is processed can impact that, but I’ve had a lot of success fermenting grains, so you can feel comfortable trying that out with a bit of guidance.

Yes, for meat, you definitely need a starter (it is generally very unsafe to ferment meat without a starter). This post refers to vegetable fermentation and the practice within some more modern, American dietary traditions that recommend using whey against the scientific evidence. I hope that helps!

Just an edit so that I’m not hating on microbes too much! There are definitely cases where people don’t use starters for meat. From what I know, those are multi-generational sausage makers who have a traditional method (and maybe even some solid and different microbial communities on their skin and work surfaces.)

So if I want to ferment without whey do I have to increase the amount of salt? If so, how much?
I make fermented green beans that take 1 Tablespoon of salt per quart along with whey. Can I still use 1 Tablespoon of salt?

Strictly speaking, egg fermentation would be a challenge. (PS- This post is about vegetable fermentation, as it does say in there. Plenty of ferments need a starter, vegetable ferments just aren’t among them). Eggs are typically pretty low in carbohydrates, so I consider pickling eggs to be “culturing” them. You’re more infusing them with ferment liquid than you are actually transforming them (having said that, the texture of the eggs does alter a bit during fermentation, but I don’t know what the cause of that change is; quite possibly not fermentation related as the same thing happens when pickling vinegar eggs).

I just got a hold of a source of fresh yuzu fruit and right now I’m planning how I’m going to preserve it.
Right now I’m thinking I’ll hold a few pieces for fresh usage, 50% as a marmalade, 25% preserved in sugar and some salt and 25% of it fermented.
For my fermented yuzu I do not want the saltiness of a standard lacto-ferment so I was thinking I could do a whey fermentation. Maybe replacing the salt with raw sugar?
My biggest concern is how the bacteria will interact with the acidity if the yuzu.

When it comes to fruit, you generally have two options for directly fermenting it: boozify it (aka add sugar and stir like crazy then throw it under an airlock) or heavily salt it to preserve. Whey fermenting would, strictly speaking and depending on the type of whey, be facto-fermentation. I haven’t ever attempted a pure whey bath for citrus fruit, so I can’t tell you what the end result would be. If you add sugar, you’re likely to end up with booze or slime. If you add salt, you’re going to want to add over 8% salt (I’ve had best luck with 10%-13%, which will definitely inhibit the lactic acid bacteria. Also, I’ve never preserved yuzu before. Generally when you search for citrus to preserve, the thinner the rind, the better the end product, so I’m really not sure how yuzu would turn out. I hope it turns out wonderfully, however you do it!

I am interesting in making fermented condiments. All the recipes I have found call for whey. Is the the best way or the easiest? I have only fermented vegetables so far. Where would I get whey for this use if it is the best practice?

You can use any fermented liquid to ferment your condiments. I don’t often do this anymore since I definitely get enough ferments in my diet without making non-ferments into ferments, but I see the appeal!

Just try to match the ferment to the condiment and you’ll be a-ok. Kombucha (a bit over-fermented is best) is great for vinegar-centric condiments, but leftover vegetable ferment brine, yogurt whey, living vinegar, water kefir, living wine or soda will all work, just a list to start with.

Getting a little worried after reading all this. Delima: I make sourdough dinner rolls, loaves and cinnamon rolls all summer for Farmers Market sales; also through winter holidays as income supplement. I have just gotten into making kefir, kefir cheese and whey. Is it possible that my kefir production might be interfering with sourdough starter. My doughs don’t seem to rise as fast or as good as they used to. It may just be cold weather, but just wondering if I should at least keep my sourdough starter and my kefir in different refrigerators.

Hi Fay, It’s possible, but based on my experience, extremely unlikely that this in an issue. And if your containers are closed in the fridge (aka real lids, not cloth-covered) and fed with separate and clean utensils, the odds of this being an issue are even worse. My best bet is that you’re just fine!