*All estimates should be based on the MOST CURRENT information. IOW, this scale is subject to change on a weekly basis, until the conclusion of the ToP(and subsequently DBS itself.)

Damborgson

Originally posted by Jmanghan
UI Goku needs to be wayyyyy higher, he's better then Beerus.

By the end of the tournament I have no doubt he will be, but as of now...not quite.

cdtm

Not at all. There's no reason to believe Goku is above Beerus.

Jmanghan

Originally posted by Damborgson
By the end of the tournament I have no doubt he will be, but as of now...not quite. I think UI Goku is &gt; Jiren tbh, considering his performance against him.

cdtm

Jiren wasn't fighting seriously.

SSJGGogeta

If Beerus is a 10, then

-SSB Vegetto: 11, was stated that SSJB Vegetto was superior to Beerus
-Jiren: 12, possibly higher
-UI Goku: 9 or 10, give or take. Not sure as of right now.
-Hakaishin-Toppo: No way to know for sure, but probably around 8 or 9
-SSB Goku /w/ KKx20: Probably around 7 or 8
-ASSB Vegeta: Right up there with KK Goku at 7 or 8
-Golden Freeza: Probably no more than 4 or 5
-LSSJ2 Kefla: Probably around 8 or 9. Above ASSJB Vegeta, but below UI Goku
-Aniraza: Not sure.
-Superman: 0.0000000000000000000000000000001, on average.

Originally posted by Inedian
Ok... Beerus probably is the most powerful GoD out of those 8 universes. Beerus himself has also UI to probably high degree (but not mastered UI) combined with immense raw power.

For now, Jiren is 7 at best. lol wtf.

Galan007

Originally posted by Inedian
Ok... Beerus probably is the most powerful GoD out of those 8 universes. Beerus himself has also UI to probably high degree (but not mastered UI) combined with immense raw power.

For now, Jiren is 7 at best. I'm inclined to agree, actually(though I would probably put Jiren a bit higher.)

As of right now, I don't think he's displayed power superior to that of Beerus, which is why I am somewhat surprised to see that most are putting him above that level. At *full* power I'm sure that will be a different story, but we have yet to see his full power. In fact, we don't even know how much power Jiren is currently using -- could be 99% of his maximum, could be 50%, could be 2%. /shrug

Sj_Sharp

Since the very first episodes of DBS it resulted clear that the 6-10-15 scale was not intended to be linear. Furthermore, when KK first appeared, it definitely sealed it.
Big numbers on linear scales become relatively small and close to themselves on logarithmic scales, and this would be exactly the case, allowing to to cover and fit to the story all the transformations that we have seen until now.

For example, on a log10 scale, BoG SSG Goku being 6 and Beerus being 10 means that Beerus would actually be 10000 times stronger on a linear (BP) scale.

Being said that:

- SSB Vegetto (vs MZ) = 10
He was stated to be perhaps greater than Beerus in the manga. With KK his level would be higher, not to mention that a current (ToP) SSB Vegetto would be much more powerful.

- Jiren = at least 10.1
On my current scale it means that he would be minimum 1.25 times stronger than Beerus (who is top 3 GoDs). 1.25 times stronger in DB&gt; used to mean "STOMP". Also remember that a small step on a log scale is actually big with a linear approach. It is probable that, at the end of the ToP, I would have him even higher when he will show his full power.

- UI Goku (2nd appearance vs Kefla) = 9.7
I still have him at least 2 times weaker than Beerus at this point, but you can see from Beerus' face that he is almost there. However, if a supposed master UI is going to happen at the climax of the last ToP episodes, in order to match (or at least get close to) whatever a serious Jiren will have to offer, his level would definitely have to go beyond Beerus'.

- GoD Toppo = 9.4
The GoDs are not all equal in power, however it is clear that they have to be at least in the same ballpark. I have GoD Toppo (who is a beginner) placed at the low-end scale of the GoDs' rank.

- KKx20 SSB Goku (current) = 8.7
Simply, 20 times more powerful than his current SSB version

- Super Saiyan My Cabba Vegeta = 8.7
I have him equal to KKx20 Goku right now, however things could change after the new episodes...

- True Golden Freeza = 7.4
I have him more or less equal to current SSB Goku.

- LSS2 Kefla = 9
She was a beast, but, even if her last attack could have damaged Goku due to its "extreme, OP, cutting-laser-like" nature, I don't believe she could have matched him in actual BP. Indeed, at the end of the day she couldn't touch him and got obliterated by his Kamehameha. As for the other forms of Kefla (base and LSSJ), it it is imortant to remember that she fighting an extremely tired SSB Goku and she was even losing.

- Aniraza = 7.9
3 SSB tiers characters (+ 2 lesser ones) were required to match his power beam, so I have him a little bit more than 3 times stronger than current SSB Goku.

Bonus

- Whis = 15
This really makes you understand how much more powerful the Angels are than all the rest. LOL.
Master of UI, space and time manipulation, Whis is a beast

- BoG SSG Goku = 6

- Ssj4 Gogeta = 3.16
This is where I have the strongest being of the pre-Super DB continuity. He surely is a beast (I have him at a multi-galaxy level scale), but he cannot compare with DBS top dogs.

- Grand Priest = ?
Whis cannot even touch him, and he explicitly stated in the manga that he is strongest being in all of creation. Considering that Whis is not even the strongest among the Angels and that the GP tops all of them by an unfunny degree, I would have him at 20 or even more.

Galan007

Of course the "15, 10, 6" scale Toriyama originally provided after the release of BoG(but before RoF and DBS) is no longer applicable. As we now know full-well, n00b SSG Goku was definitely NOT within 40% of Beerus' maximum... Not when Beerus can casually one-shot-ragdoll FPSSBs without even really trying.

I just used '10' here as an arbitrary number. Makes it a bit simpler to rank the others in comparison when using a 10-scale, imo. That's all.

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by Galan007
Of course the "15, 10, 6" scale Toriyama originally provided after the release of BoG(but before RoF and DBS) is no longer applicable. As we now know full-well, n00b SSG Goku was definitely NOT within 40% of Beerus' maximum... Not when Beerus can casually one-shot-ragdoll FPSSBs without even really trying.

I just used '10' here as an arbitrary number. Makes it a bit simpler to rank the others in comparison when using a 10-scale, imo. That's all.

Yes, a simple, linear 6-10-15 scale stopped to make sense at the very beginning of DBS.
When KK on top of SSB was first introduced, I started to think about it as a log "6-10-15" scale, and it really makes sense, covering pretty well all of the power increases of we saw in the show until now.
I also found a very interesting thread on Kanzenshuu where a detailed analysis demonstrated the capability to use a log scale to cover current DBS power-levels (which are too big to be comfortably expressed in a linear manner) and then to compare them to and convert them into old fashioned, DBZ power levels.

Really, I don't see it as a logarithmic scale either. It's simply that SSG Goku is a "level six" whereas Beerus is a "level ten," with each level being an order of magnitude above than the last.

Galan007

So, any guesstimates on where a full-power Jiren stands, relative to Beerus?

NewGuy01

Not really. He himself didn't comment, and the current characters are too far removed from any incarnation that fought Beerus to be of much help.

The best we can do is scale off Toppo, but that seems pretty unreliable.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

carver9

Can Beerus stand in one spot without flinching while Blue Goku pounds on him? If the answer is yes, please provide anime evidence.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Galan007

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, we know from Jiren's comment that Vegeta was still throwing around power capable of beating up Hakaishin Toppo, and Jiren proceeded to oneshot him into Base after the comment. If Toppo has any degree of relativity with the Hakaishin, and Vegeta even moreso, it should give us a decent idea of where Jiren stands. True, but last episode it was also stated that Vegeta expended nearly all of his power when he used the Kamikaze attack against Toppo -- IOW, he was literally running on fumes this episode, which might help explain why Jiren kept one-shotting him back to base.

It was basically a repeat of a depleted SSG/SSB Goku vs. Kefla. /shrug

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There is no evidence either way, which is kind of the point. We literally don't know where Beerus stands in relation to Jiren. I'd like to think at this point that Jiren is above Beerus, but nothing has been conclusively proven.

Personally, I was surprised that neither Beerus or Whis commented on Jiren's full power... Though I expect the character-comments to start rolling in once Goku attains MUI.

Galan007

Now that Goku has attained MUI, any thoughts on where he stands?

Estacado

12-15 mabbe...we still dont have much to compare just speculations...

Galan007

He's definitely above Beerus at this point, but I'm not ready to put him anywhere near Whis-level just because he has MUI.

*I only mention Whis, because Toriyama put him at a 15 relative to Beerus' 10.

Estacado

Even Beerus was cheering like a lil girl when he mastered it...haermm

Whis should still demolish him easy.

In that case Goku is 11 or 12. Most likely 11.

Galan007

Especially since we know for a fact that MUI is not the 'great equalizer'. Hence why Daishinkan is &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Whis, even though both possess MUI.

Blindside12

MUI Goku kicks Beerus ass. He's easy a 12-13 a his newly mastered form. He can still dig deeper as well as Whis said.

cdtm

Originally posted by Galan007

Especially since we know for a fact that MUI is not the 'great equalizer'. Hence why Daishinkan is &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Whis, even though both possess MUI.

For that matter, Beerus's imperfect UI combined with GoD tier "perfected" destruction energy may put him on par with, or even slightly above Goku's mui.

Inedian

Beerus &gt; MUI Goku

cdtm

Originally posted by Inedian
Beerus &gt; MUI Goku

I'd like to think so. Even without Destruction.

But that should make up the deficit, since they established imperfect ui is as good at dodging as mastered, and energy attacks can be used sans ui attacks. And destruction can be used to augment defenses, in addition to needing no charge time at all.

Blindside12

Originally posted by Inedian
Beerus &gt; MUI Goku

Nope, a less powerful Vegeta took down a god of destruction.

cdtm

Originally posted by Blindside12
Nope, a less powerful Vegeta took down a god of destruction.

Toppo isn't a God of Destruction.

Toppo isn't Beerus. His newly realized Destruction energy isn't an indication of what a full God of Destruction can do.

Remember, Beerus casually blew out small amounts of Destruction energy.

Blindside12

Dude you don't know anything about DBS. It's clearly shown their energy alone could have wiped out the gods of destruction.

All you do is troll DBS fans and try to talk about Superman.

cdtm

Originally posted by Blindside12
Dude you don't know anything about DBS. It's clearly shown their energy alone could have wiped out the gods of destruction.

Far be it from me to argue against an expert like yourself.

If anyone else wants to tell Time he's wrong, go right ahead.

Inedian

Originally posted by cdtm
I'd like to think so. Even without Destruction.

Since when was incomplete version above the mastered form? He hasn't achieved even regular Ultra Instict for that matter not even close.

He was willing to give the nod to Goku for mastering it.

Inedian

Originally posted by Blindside12
No he's not. He doesn't even know ultra instinct

He has UI, just not MUI (he fought 6 GoD together and was said he could even destroy them... far more than just fighting Jiren, but ok that was in manga). MUI Goku might be a better fighter than Beerus, but Beerus would catch up with Goku MUI with raw speed and power and would destroy him.

Blindside12

Goku could fight all 12 an beat them. Goku has more power as he caught and flicked away the most powerful attack to date.

I'm trying to figure out how dodging is UI? I can post Namek saga Goku dodging, does this give him UI as well? Is there anything else showing Beerus or stating Beerus have UI?

Blindside12

None. These noobs just invented the idea that scene means he has some form of UI.

Inedian

Originally posted by Blindside12
Goku could fight all 12 an beat them. Goku has more power as he caught and flicked away the most powerful attack to date.

Zeno didn't even like that exhibition match because of brutality, he has no problem with Goku and Jiren or with anything in ToP.

Galan007

Originally posted by carver9
I'm trying to figure out how dodging is UI? I can post Namek saga Goku dodging, does this give him UI as well? Is there anything else showing Beerus or stating Beerus have UI? Because Whis said that's what it was:

http://i.imgur.com/I94zwaJh.jpg

carver9

Originally posted by Blindside12
None. These noobs just invented the idea that scene means he has some form of UI.

That's dumb. Dodging doesn't = UI.

Estacado

Still that's pretty meh seeing how even noob UI Goku hasnt been tagged... not even once....

Galan007

Wut?

Beerus was fighting other Hakaishin there... ALL of them simultaneously. Until Jiren went full-power, Goku never fought anyone remotely close to Hakaishin-level at the ToP.

Estacado

He got caught in the end....

UI should make you untouchable...uhuh

Blindside12

Originally posted by Estacado
Still that's pretty meh seeing how even noob UI Goku hasnt been tagged... not even once....

Very true, he's never been hit

Galan007

Originally posted by Estacado
He got caught in the end.... Negatory. Beerus broke free of Mosco's hold on the following page, proceeded to slap a few more Hakaishin around, and then finally launched an attack that could have evidently killed ALL of the other Hakaishin had Sidra(who can manifest THE most powerful barriers in the multiverse) not saved them all at the last second.

The implication is that Beerus' UI(incomplete as it is) still gave him a huge advantage over all the other Hakaishin.

Here is the entire scene from start to finish for anyone who still hasn't seen the whole thing:
https://i.imgur.com/xETUaqQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/r0Tr0Rb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BdVKgWd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6QFUnEA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5BK4u1R.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kK1wfUg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rIB0x7S.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/scE9cLd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U3XF2GM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nHdESbZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KW0d2lY.jpg

Estacado

Manga Beerus should easily beat both Goku and Jiren in this case...

We would need to see them against GODs I mean we know they could defo beat 1 but 2 or 3 once?

Galan007

I'm hoping the manga better-clarifies where guys like Jiren and GoD-Toppo actually stand in relation to true Hakaishin, like Beerus and the others. The anime hasn't really done that yet.

*Obviously 'limits surpassed' Jiren is the biggest unknown, because we haven't seen him in action yet. Him aside, I feel pretty comfortable with my ranking... If you take personal bias of of the equation, the anime hasn't really indicated that it should be any different, imo. /shrug

Ridley_Prime

Some people denying that Beerus has any capacity of UI? My Zeno, the lowballing.

carver9

Originally posted by Galan007
Wut?

Beerus was fighting other Hakaishin there... ALL of them simultaneously. Until Jiren went full-power, Goku never fought anyone remotely close to Hakaishin-level at the ToP.

Toppo and Jiren are Hakaishin level. Don't know where this came from.

cdtm

Originally posted by carver9
Toppo and Jiren are Hakaishin level. Don't know where this came from.

Toppo is a candidate.

Ridley_Prime

Ssh, we gotta act like all GoDs/Hakaishins are created equal for some reason.

carver9

And have the power of the Gods.

Galan007

Originally posted by carver9
Toppo and Jiren are Hakaishin level. Don't know where this came from. There is literally NO proof that Toppo is on par with a bonafide Hakaishin. Your character-wank =/= proof.

As for FP Jiren: I have acknowledged that he is likely around Beerus-level(mainly because the entire point/hype of MUI is that it has enabled Goku to 'surpass the Gods', and it wasn't until he attained MUI that he was able to do so.) There is NO proof Jiren has exceeded that level yet, though(again, your character-wank =/= proof.)

Galan007

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Ssh, we gotta act like all GoDs/Hakaishins are created equal for some reason. ikr?

Why are some people so stuck on the notion that just because all of them are called 'Hakaishin', doesn't mean they all possess identical power by default. The fuggin manga scene I posted blatantly depicts the fact that they are NOT all equal, ffs.

Same goes for MUI: just because Goku has attained it certainly doesn't mean he can now match Whis, anymore than Whis can match Daishinkan.

Blindside12

How much more powerful us Daishinkan then Whis? On the origional 1-20 scale.

carver9

Originally posted by Galan007
ikr?

Why are some people so stuck on the notion that just because all of them are called 'Hakaishin', doesn't mean they all possess identical power by default. The fuggin manga scene I posted blatantly depicts the fact that they are NOT all equal, ffs.

Same goes for MUI: just because Goku has attained it certainly doesn't mean he can now match Whis, anymore than Whis can match Daishinkan.

While in the Anime, they were shown as equals.

Galan007

Good thing there is a canon manga which confirms they *aren't* all equal.

Galan007

Originally posted by Blindside12
How much more powerful us Daishinkan then Whis? On the origional 1-20 scale. According to Whis, he wouldn't even be able to lay a hand on Daishinkan in a fight... HUGE difference between them.

Blindside12

Thx

Ridley_Prime

Galan007

Galan007

The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to put MUI Goku at 11 or 12 right now. That would still put him comfortably above Beerus, but still far below the likes of Whis. Granted, I agree MUI Goku &gt; Beerus, but I am certainly not of the opinion that he can KO Beerus with one casual chop, like Whis can. So imo, the gap between Whis and Goku is still MUCH larger than the gap between Goku and Beerus.

On that note, I'd put Jiren at 10 or 10.5, as I believe he is no less than equal to Beerus(and arguably a bit stronger.)

...Of course, anything could happen in the final few episodes. I'm just talking about what we know right now.

Blindside12

I think Beerus could work Jiren good and edge him out, hes a beast.

Estacado

Until Jiren goes full power on him....

Estacado

^
Jiren is around 13-14 I guess....

Galan007

Per herms, in this source Beerus states Ultra Instinct Goku "might be stronger than him"(this is likely a line from the next episode, indicating that he is referring to MUI Goku):
https://i.imgur.com/8V6Fgt4.jpg

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

But I thought Beerus &gt;&gt; MUI Goku?

Galan007

*Le Gasp*

Blindside12

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
But I thought Beerus &gt;&gt; MUI Goku?

Inedian

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
But I thought Beerus &gt;&gt; MUI Goku?

I know you were saying that, but some others were saying Beerus &gt; MUI Goku

Beerus &gt; MUI Goku... this is how it will remain when DBS ends.

carver9

Can't see Beerus beating Jiren, at all. Especially if we look at how both Beerus (while contained) and Jiren (while contained) fought against Goku.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by carver9
Can't see Beerus beating Jiren, at all. Especially if we look at how both Beerus (while contained) and Jiren (while contained) fought against Goku. Well you can't judge based on that since Beerus would lose to everyone that came after BoG.

Beerus keeps shifting upwards with each threat.

carver9

True, we know that Beerus was holding back tremendously but so was Jiren. That isn't the issue here though when concerning Beerus. It's the way they both treated Goku while holding back all of that power. It was said that Jiren wasn't even using a hint of his power and he stood in one spot and allowed Goku to pound on him without moving and again he wasn't even using a fraction of his power.

Goku spirit bomb has by far been his most powerful attack before going MUI and Jiren stood there and tanked it. No character in DBS has shown this... none. I'm not saying Beerus is weak, what I am saying is based off what we have seen so far, Jiren is far more impressive.

Also, what Belmod has been saying about Jiren (along with the angels) and I'm sure they are aware of Beerus capabilities.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by carver9
True, we know that Beerus was holding back tremendously but so was Jiren. That isn't the issue here though when concerning Beerus. It's the way they both treated Goku while holding back all of that power. It was said that Jiren wasn't even using a hint of his power and he stood in one spot and allowed Goku to pound on him without moving and again he wasn't even using a fraction of his power.

Goku spirit bomb has by far been his most powerful attack before going MUI and Jiren stood there and tanked it. No character in DBS has shown this... none. I'm not saying Beerus is weak, what I am saying is based off what we have seen so far, Jiren is far more impressive.

Also, what Belmod has been saying about Jiren (along with the angels) and I'm sure they are aware of Beerus capabilities. Good point. Beerus had trouble with noob Goku God.
Jiren toyed around with experienced SSBlue KKx20.

Doing some calculations:
Let's say Blue is twice as powerful as twink. And let's say Goku doubles his power each saga because really...
Frieza he is 2x Beerus saga. U6 he is 4x Beerus saga. Black he is 8x Beerus saga. ToP he is 16x Beerus saga.
16 times 20 = 320 times as powerful as he was when he fought Beerus.

Even if he adds just the power of his first Blue form each saga and assume it's twice as powerful as Twink you get:
Frieza 2x. U6 4x. Black 6x. ToP 8x.
8 times 20 = 160 times as powerful as when he fought Beerus.

So yeah, needless to say we should not go by that. Get out of my face Carver.

carver9

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Good point. Beerus had trouble with noob Goku God.
Jiren toyed around with experienced SSBlue KKx20.

Doing some calculations:
Let's say Blue is twice as powerful as twink. And let's say Goku doubles his power each saga because really...
Frieza he is 2x Beerus saga. U6 he is 4x Beerus saga. Black he is 8x Beerus saga. ToP he is 16x Beerus saga.
16 times 20 = 320 times as powerful as he was when he fought Beerus.

Even if he adds just the power of his first Blue form each saga and assume it's twice as powerful as Twink you get:
Frieza 2x. U6 4x. Black 6x. ToP 8x.
8 times 20 = 160 times as powerful as when he fought Beerus.

So yeah, needless to say we should not go by that. Get out of my face Carver.

Post in the way.

Galan007

I think a truly 'full power' Jiren AND MUI Goku are each &gt; Beerus. The difference may not be vast, but I believe it is decisive nonetheless.

All the hype thus far(with BOTH Jiren and MUI) have been indicative of such, imo. As mentioned earlier, Jiren has already been alluded as &gt; Belmond, and MUI is regarded as a power 'beyond even the Gods':

https://i.imgur.com/T6lXf5U.jpg

So yeah...

One Big Mob

If you're talking about my posts with Carvdaddyslice69, swing the first punch and we'll go right now, otherwise get out of my face Galan. I'm only talking about his notion that Beerus vs Twinku proves anything in this age of technology.

As of this stage, Jiren is above Beerus... finally. Though Beerus has an uncanny ability to always be shifting his power upwards, so it'd be interesting to see how long that would last if this show continued.

Galan007

My post literally had nothing to do with you -- it was directed moreso at comment(s) made on the last page.

The world doesn't revolve around you, brandon. sly

One Big Mob

No way bucko, you already had your piece last page. The only one who said anything contrary since then besides the great Carver War of page 5 was Injun.

You're not invisible just because I can see right through you. And I can see your face in mine, and I want it out.

Galan007

I feel like you're speaking to me with emo-rock lyrics. mmm

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Galan007
I feel like you're speaking to me with emo-rock lyrics. mmm I bet you googled that and wondered where Thrawn said that didn't you?

Also, the original Grunge bands were about how far I go down that spectrum, not a fan of Buckshot Kurt besides some songs. The actual emo music in that fad time of emo is the worst though. Don't lump my heroin bands in with them, or we're going to have face wars.

carver9

Originally posted by One Big Mob
If you're talking about my posts with Carvdaddyslice69, swing the first punch and we'll go right now, otherwise get out of my face Galan. I'm only talking about his notion that Beerus vs Twinku proves anything in this age of technology.

As of this stage, Jiren is above Beerus... finally. Though Beerus has an uncanny ability to always be shifting his power upwards, so it'd be interesting to see how long that would last if this show continued.

Carverdaddyslice69...

carver9

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Good point. Beerus had trouble with noob Goku God.
Jiren toyed around with experienced SSBlue KKx20.

Doing some calculations:
Let's say Blue is twice as powerful as twink. And let's say Goku doubles his power each saga because really...
Frieza he is 2x Beerus saga. U6 he is 4x Beerus saga. Black he is 8x Beerus saga. ToP he is 16x Beerus saga.
16 times 20 = 320 times as powerful as he was when he fought Beerus.

Even if he adds just the power of his first Blue form each saga and assume it's twice as powerful as Twink you get:
Frieza 2x. U6 4x. Black 6x. ToP 8x.
8 times 20 = 160 times as powerful as when he fought Beerus.

So yeah, needless to say we should not go by that. Get out of my face Carver.

That's the thing though, Goku has faced and endured a going all out Beerus. Remember, the sleep scene where it was mentioned Beerus doesn't contain his power when he is asleep. Both Vegeta and Goku in base withstood an all out attack from him and was up and moving moments later. The same can not be said with Jiren. Blue was on his knees from a couple of hits from suppressed Jiren and even while suppressed, Goku mentioned he has never felt power like Jiren and he has felt the power of an unleashed Beerus. Too much points to Jiren being above Beerus. At Jiren final stage, I don't even think it would be much of a fight tbh.

Galan007

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I bet you googled that and wondered where Thrawn said that didn't you?

Also, the original Grunge bands were about how far I go down that spectrum, not a fan of Buckshot Kurt besides some songs. The actual emo music in that fad time of emo is the worst though. Don't lump my heroin bands in with them, or we're going to have face wars. I know everything Thrawn has said, ever... Therefore I knew he didn't say that. g007_teehee

Originally posted by carver9
That's the thing though, Goku has faced and endured a going all out Beerus. Remember, the sleep scene where it was mentioned Beerus doesn't contain his power when he is asleep. Both Vegeta and Goku in base withstood an all out attack from him and was up and moving moments later. The same can not be said with Jiren. Blue was on his knees from a couple of hits from suppressed Jiren and even while suppressed, Goku mentioned he has never felt power like Jiren and he has felt the power of an unleashed Beerus. Too much points to Jiren being above Beerus. At Jiren final stage, I don't even think it would be much of a fight tbh. Base form makes the math even worse Carver. Which was my point.

I'll show you:
Let's assume Twink amps SS1 10 times since SS3 is an 8x amp. That would mean his base is 1000 times less powerful than Twink. That would mean that Goku 160 000 times weaker than the one who fought a holding back Jiren withstood the full might of Beerus.

I told you to get out of my face, not enter my facial area and pop zits all over it.

Originally posted by Galan007
I know everything Thrawn has said, ever... Therefore I knew he didn't say that. g007_teehee

Grunge was when people were down from doing too many drugs. Emo was when people were down because they put too much tape on their dicks and had to cut their wrists to feel anything because their clothes were too tight.

carver9

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Base form makes the math even worse Carver. Which was my point.

I'll show you:
Let's assume Twink amps SS1 10 times since SS3 is an 8x amp. That would mean his base is 1000 times less powerful than Twink. That would mean that Goku 160 000 times weaker than the one who fought a holding back Jiren withstood the full might of Beerus.

I told you to get out of my face, not enter my facial area and pop zits all over it.

Upcoming comic.

Grunge was when people were down from doing too many drugs. Emo was when people were down because they put too much tape on their dicks and had to cut their wrists to feel anything because their clothes were too tight.

What showing with Goku being in base (going all out, not playing around fighting friends) make a character look weak compared to what he has displayed against Beerus in base form? Remember, base Vegeta was able to stand in one spot allowing SS3 Gotenks to pound on him.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by carver9
What showing with Goku being in base (going all out, not playing around fighting friends) make a character look weak compared to what he has displayed against Beerus in base form? Remember, base Vegeta was able to stand in one spot allowing SS3 Gotenks to pound on him. Then you simply slide it back to 160 times weaker. Either way you create an absurd disparity in power levels that makes it ridiculous to compare the two, which is my point.

Beerus' power level gets retconned with every new threat. The difficulty in which he achieved things is no longer relevant. If we assume he's more powerful than Toppo, then what he did before was fractions of his actual percentage of power. Which was my original problem with Beerus somehow knowing Goku couldn't beat Frieza in base, because it was so far below him that he couldn't possibly get an accurate assessment. Which is what we now have to assume with what we know of him.

For him to have trouble with Twinku, and if we scale up Beerus to let's say Rage Vegeta against Toppo which Gaylad has assumed was a double boost, which was 40 times kk, Beerus would have been 320 times stronger at least than what he used against Twinku.
Which means he was using at most 0.31% of his power in retrospect. That's first form Frieza level shit.

It simply doesn't become feasible to contrast the two with the amount of retcons Beerus has gotten. So yes, Jiren might turn out to be 10 times as strong as Beerus, we don't know, but he won't turn out that strong based on prior performances, because we can safely throw those out the window.

carver9

Just want to point out that Jiren last attackwas said to have enough power to kill everyone that was watching the fight.

NewGuy01

Suppressed Jiren &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Angels confirmed.

Galan007

Originally posted by carver9
Just want to point out that Jiren last attackwas said to have enough power to kill everyone that was watching the fight. Yet NO other Gods seemed worried at all, even though everyone there can obviously sense Jiren's power. This entire arc Khai(in particular) has been riding Jiren's dick rather vigorously, so I take a lot of the things he says with a grain of salt. He and Belmond have often come off like complete dipshits, tbh.

Personally, I hold that statement in the same regard as Roshi(from his very finite/limited vantage point) somehow determining that n00b-UI Goku was shaking the entire infinite World of Void -- there's just no way he could have possibly deduced something like that... Moreover, if you take Khai's boast literally, then like NewGuy said, it also implies that a suppressed Jiren can one-shot every single Hakaishin AND Angel in existence.

Also whether Jiren could or couldn't have killed Beerus is irrelevant to your previous logic. You're just grabbing at anything you think will prove it at this point.
If you were in a hole and someone offered a hand down to you, you wouldn't grab their dick to pull yourself out would you?

What we have so far heavily implies Jiren is above, apart from what you used. Stop grabbing at dicks Carver

Inedian

Originally posted by carver9
Just want to point out that Jiren last attackwas said to have enough power to kill everyone that was watching the fight.

Carver, the most important is that Jiren beats MUI Goku. That's justice.

Prof. T.C McAbe

Jiren 9
UI Goku 10

Galan007

Well now we know without a doubt:

MUI Goku &gt; full power Jiren.

Ridley_Prime

Estacado

Well Goku needed to powerup again even in MUI cause he was losing to FP Jiren in the 1st half of the match.

Damborgson

I like how they didn't just let Goku straight up indisputably surpass the gods. He's definitely stronger, but using that power isn't simple. That was some 8 gates fatigue on crack.

From his fight with Jiren though, Goku is likely a 12 now. 13 maybe even.

NewGuy01

Lol, what makes you say that?

Damborgson

Which part?

NewGuy01

What about this fight makes you think Goku is three levels above Beerus? Keeping in mind that Beerus was only four levels above Goku during Battle of the Gods.

Estacado

Id say Jiren is about 10.5 or 11 Goku is about 11.5 or 12.
Based on the latest fight.

Originally posted by Galan007
The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to put MUI Goku at 11 or so now. That would still put him comfortably above Beerus, but still far below the likes of Whis. Granted, I agree MUI Goku &gt; Beerus, but I am certainly not of the opinion that he can KO Beerus with one casual chop, like Whis can. So imo, the gap between Whis and Goku is still MUCH larger than the gap between Goku and Beerus.

On that note, I'd put Jiren at 10 or 10.5, as I believe he is no less than equal to Beerus(and arguably a bit stronger.)

Damborgson

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What about this fight makes you think Goku is three levels above Beerus? Keeping in mind that Beerus was only four levels above Goku during Battle of the Gods.

This with only one caveat. I think MUI can reach angelic level as he already surpassed GoD level rather quickly. And as said by Whis he can dog deeper, and shown he can continue to power up.

Galan007

As I've mentioned several times before: while I agree that MUI Goku &gt; Beerus, he still isn't even remotely close to Angel-level... Unless you think he can KO Beerus with one casual chop. ermm

IOW, even Goku still has a LOOOOONG way to go to ever approach the likes of Whis.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

MUI Goku is probably an 11. Jiren a 10.5 or perhaps 10.

Or we could be getting jerked around again and Goku could be a 10.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
MUI Goku is probably an 11. Jiren a 10.5 or perhaps 10.

Or we could be getting jerked around again and Goku could be a 10.

You have the right idea, although I'd argue that they're either both 10's or both 11's.

bbrem123

Why would you think Jiren and MUI Goku are at the same level? When Jiren clearly got stomped at the end of the fight when Goku got serious.

carver9

Originally posted by NewGuy01 You have the right idea, although I'd argue that they're either both 10's or both 11's.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by bbrem123
Why would you think Jiren and MUI Goku are at the same level? When Jiren clearly got stomped at the end of the fight when Goku got serious.

Because the difference between each of the levels is massive. If winning a battle decisively were all it took to go up a level, Goku would have surpassed Whis a long time ago.

bbrem123

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because each of the levels are massive. If winning a battle decisively were all it took to go up a level, Goku would have surpassed Whis a long time ago. hmmm. Interesting point

Whis is 5 levels above Beerus though. If Jiren could decisively beat Beerus you don't think MUI Goku who decisvely beat Jiren would not be able to stomp Beerus? Nevermind Whis.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by bbrem123
hmmm. Interesting point

Whis is 5 levels above Beerus though. If Jiren could decisively beat Beerus you don't think MUI Goku who decisvely beat Jiren would not be able to stomp Beerus? Nevermind Whis.

Not sure what you're trying to say by bringing Whis into this, but if MUI Goku is a level 11, then he should absolutely be capable of beating the shit out of Beerus.

Galan007

If the consensus is that full power Jiren ~ Beerus, then MUI Goku probably would beat him decisively, tbh. After he got serious/pissed, Goku beat Jiren with an all-out punch+blast combo -- essentially two attacks... and he did so while markedly fatigued, to boot.

srug

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by Galan007
If the consensus is that full power Jiren ~ Beerus, then MUI Goku probably would beat him decisively, tbh. After he got serious/pissed, Goku beat Jiren with an all-out punch+blast combo -- essentially two attacks... and he did so while markedly fatigued, to boot.

srug

Nah, to me Limit breaker Jiren &gt; Beerus easily.

Jiren was stated to have a power matching if not surpassing that of the GoDs way before revealing his "limit breaker" form.

Galan007

It wasn't a 'limit breaker' form/power, though... it was just Jiren's *true* full power.

Why do you think so?
God Toppo is Hakaishin level (granted, even if low tier or noob), and Jiren was casually beyond that.

To me Jiren doesn't need his full mad form power to be beyond Hakaishin level, he already is by default, even if not by a lot if we consider the strongest GoDs such as Beerus.

With his 100% mad form, it's a no contest IMHO.

Galan007

The fact that Toppo is a Hakaishin *candidate*, and can use the destruction energy to an extent, certainly doesn't mean he is even remotely close to bonafide Hakaishin-level... especially when we already know that each Hakaishin is NOT created equal -- their powers vary wildly from universe to universe(the manga's Zen exhibition match proved that much.)

Heck Beerus himself told SSB Vegeta that he'd be a good candidate for Hakaishin in *another* universe... moments after effortlessly ragdolling him, lol.

Jiren was stated to have a power matching if not surpassing that of the GoDs way before revealing his "limit breaker" form.

Yep.

carver9

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Why do you think so?
God Toppo is Hakaishin level (granted, even if low tier or noob), and Jiren was casually beyond that.

To me Jiren doesn't need his full mad form power to be beyond Hakaishin level, he already is by default, even if not by a lot if we consider the strongest GoDs such as Beerus.

With his 100% mad form, it's a no contest IMHO.

Agreed.

Galan007

carver: "O cool! u think Jirenz supa powaful too!? I totly agreez!!!"

One Big Mob

Carver's life revolves around power levels. It's why he connects so well with Hulk and Jiren. His life story is like a combination of the two.

When he was growing up his dad used to beat up his whole family. One day he got a group of his family and friends to come over to take out his dad, but wouldn't you know it, he beat them up too and vanished out of Carv's life.

Carver's been getting more powerful and angrier everyday in anticipation of the showdown of his life. Carver only respects power and knows his strength is infinite if he applies it. One day, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day he will run into Brian Carverson Sr and he needs to be the Carver in the situation, not the Carved.

carver9

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Carver's life revolves around power levels. It's why he connects so well with Hulk and Jiren. His life story is like a combination of the two.

When he was growing up his dad used to beat up his whole family. One day he got a group of his family and friends to come over to take out his dad, but wouldn't you know it, he beat them up too and vanished out of Carv's life.

Carver's been getting more powerful and angrier everyday in anticipation of the showdown of his life. Carver only respects power and knows his strength is infinite if he applies it. One day, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day he will run into Brian Carverson Sr and he needs to be the Carver in the situation, not the Carved.

carver9

I also want to point out that it was said that Toppo is no different from a god of destruction.

Galan007

And I want to point out that you're wrong.

There's this wacky thing called "context", you see...

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Galan007

And that is precisely why I referenced the ever so important "context".

carver is trying to pretend like Belmond's statement automatically puts Toppo on par with the upper-end Hakaishin, like Beerus. But as you and I well know, that couldn't be further from the truth(which is why his statement IS very much wrong.)

He just wants Jiren to be worlds beyond Beerus-level SO bad that he's willing to overlook any/all context behind most scenes... This is phase one.

One Big Mob

Carver has never been wrong in his life. All he knows is power, and power is never wrong.

Damborgson

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdleUnacceptableBluejay-size_restricted.gif

When someone tries landing the fist of facts on my boi Carv

carver9

@Supremex...

What did his statement mean?

bbrem123

Didn't they say Goku unlocked Jiren's hidden power. This seemed very similar to Gohan's hidden power, which he could not always tap into. He was desperate to win and this power was triggered. I didn't see it as his normal 100% power.

His normal 100% power was getting tooled by MUI Goku (He then had the flashback to his past which trigger the hidden power).

I very well could be miss understanding all this though lol.

carver9

You are right.

Galan007

Originally posted by bbrem123
Didn't they say Goku unlocked Jiren's hidden power. This seemed very similar to Gohan's hidden power, which he could not always tap into. He was desperate to win and this power was triggered. I didn't see it as his normal 100% power.

His normal 100% power was getting tooled by MUI Goku (He then had the flashback to his past which trigger the hidden power).

I very well could be miss understanding all this though lol. I don't think so. Imo, the implication is that getting pummeled by MUI Goku was just the catalyst that finally made Jiren use *all* of his power. Before that, he wasn't using his 'full' power, because he simply did not need to.

...Which is probably why Khai and Belmond didn't seem at all surprised by said power/aura when Jiren finally tapped it. Those two are even bigger Jiren fangirls than carv -- if it were some entirely new and unknown pinnacle of power that Jiren had reached, they would have undoubtedly said something to that effect(but they didn't.) There's also the fact that the previews/solicits just referred to it as Jiren "finally getting serious" and using his "full power". /shrug

Galan007

Is the consensus that the next time Goku attains UI it will be the 'mastered' version right off the bat, or will he still go into omen/n00b-mode first... cuz build up?

bbrem123

I hope it doesn't have the build up...Unless they are gonna use it like they did SSG and SSB...

Inedian

Goku MUI is LUI.. LUCKYUI. Anyway he already has that power unlocked, he just needs some guidance from Whis and will truly know how to activate UI and master it.

Playmaker

Originally posted by Galan007
If Beerus is a 10, where do the following characters rank in comparison..?

"According to the series' original author Akira Toriyama, in terms of power, Goku as a Super Saiyan God would be a 6, Beerus would be a 10, and Whis would be a 15."

Alright so from there:

Ultra Instinct Goku: Considering we don't know where he would rank with Whis...I'd put him around 12 or 13. Goku here does have godly powers far exceeding the Gods of Destruction.

Jiren: At Hidden Power Awakened, I'd put him 1 below Ultra Instinct Goku. So a 11 or 12. He was able to go toe-to-toe with Ultra Instinct after all but Goku did have the edge.

Toppo: Since Toppo became a God of Destruction, well, I think I would put him on a 10. Make him on level with Beerus since I'm not entirely sure if the Gods of Destruction have the same power level or not.

SSJ Blue Shinka Vegeta: With the above stated, I would put this power at the same level or 1 higher than Toppo, so a 10 or 11.

SSJ Blue Kaioken x20 Goku: 8 or 9?? Goku as a Super Saiyan God is a 6. So I would figure Goku as Super Saiyan Blue or "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God further transforms himself into a Super Saiyan" would be a 7. Then I guess add Kaioken x20 to that to make it an 8 or 9.

True Golden Frieza: It was expressed that this form was stronger that the God of Destruction Sidra. Where does Sidra compare to Beerus? I dunno. I'd put him at a 7 or 8. Around the same power as I did with SSJ Blue Goku. Since, after all, the two were declared evenly match by Beerus.

Ridley_Prime

The Gods of Destruction have different power levels, though by how much is unknown, but they all fall below someone with Mastered Ultra Instinct and anyone whose able to give MUI a good fight I guess (in this case Jiren).

Galan007

Indeed. After all, Beerus' imperfect version of UI is essentially what put him above the other Hakaishin when they all sparred.