Oklahoma! in Todd-AO?

Guest

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an easy
way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
(Which version is the latest DVD release?)

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In article <>, says...
> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an easy
> way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
> on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
> the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
> (Which version is the latest DVD release?)

Everything currently available is from the Todd-AO production. The DVD
is of very mediocre quality, being a single sided disc that is neither
dual layer nor anamorphic. The first LDs were from the CinemaScope
version, later followed by the Todd-AO. You might check eBay once or
twice a week and you may be able to find the old CinemaScope LD sooner
or later. It may not be the easiest way of getting it, but you get too
winded.

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On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:29:58 GMT, Martin Hart
<> wrote:
>In article <>,
> says...
>> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an easy
>> way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
>> on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
>> the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
>> (Which version is the latest DVD release?)
>
>Everything currently available is from the Todd-AO production. The DVD
>is of very mediocre quality, being a single sided disc that is neither
>dual layer nor anamorphic. The first LDs were from the CinemaScope
>version, later followed by the Todd-AO. You might check eBay once or
>twice a week and you may be able to find the old CinemaScope LD sooner
>or later. It may not be the easiest way of getting it, but you get too
>winded.
>
>Marty

Actually, if you can get it and play PAL videos, I think the current
UK widescreen VHS is from the CinemaScope version

And there certainly is a difference between the two versions. All you have
to do is compare the Kansas City number and see that the staging was
different for each version.

<> wrote in message
news:...
> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an easy
> way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
> on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
> the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
> (Which version is the latest DVD release?)
>

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:10:49 +0000, Don Carter <> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:29:58 GMT, Martin Hart
><> wrote:
>
>>In article <>,
>> says...
>>> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an easy
>>> way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
>>> on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
>>> the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
>>> (Which version is the latest DVD release?)
>>
>>Everything currently available is from the Todd-AO production. The DVD
>>is of very mediocre quality, being a single sided disc that is neither
>>dual layer nor anamorphic. The first LDs were from the CinemaScope
>>version, later followed by the Todd-AO. You might check eBay once or
>>twice a week and you may be able to find the old CinemaScope LD sooner
>>or later. It may not be the easiest way of getting it, but you get too
>>winded.
>>
>>Marty
>
>Actually, if you can get it and play PAL videos, I think the current
>UK widescreen VHS is from the CinemaScope version
>
>Don

Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.

In article <>,
Charles Eggen <> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:10:49 +0000, Don Carter <> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:29:58 GMT, Martin Hart
> ><> wrote:
> >
> >>In article <>,
> >> says...
> >>> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an easy
> >>> way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
> >>> on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
> >>> the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
> >>> (Which version is the latest DVD release?)
> >>
> >>Everything currently available is from the Todd-AO production. The DVD
> >>is of very mediocre quality, being a single sided disc that is neither
> >>dual layer nor anamorphic. The first LDs were from the CinemaScope
> >>version, later followed by the Todd-AO. You might check eBay once or
> >>twice a week and you may be able to find the old CinemaScope LD sooner
> >>or later. It may not be the easiest way of getting it, but you get too
> >>winded.
> >>
> >>Marty
> >
> >Actually, if you can get it and play PAL videos, I think the current
> >UK widescreen VHS is from the CinemaScope version
> >
> >Don
>
> Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
> DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
> 2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
> Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
>
> Charles
> nzvideos.org

I believe that the last US laserdisc release, which I own, was the Todd
AO version. It also included a documentary about the production and
showed the differences between the two films. I might be wrong though,
and will have to dig out my laserdisc to confirm.

I realize that this is wishy-washy, but a big point was made of the
version of the film at the time the disc was released.

Warchild wrote:
> In article <>,
> Charles Eggen <> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:10:49 +0000, Don Carter <>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:29:58 GMT, Martin Hart
>>> <> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <>,
>>>> says...
>>>>> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there
>>>>> an easy way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions
>>>>> of OKLAHOMA! on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to
>>>>> buy a laserdisc of the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly
>>>>> kicking myself ever since. (Which version is the latest DVD
>>>>> release?)
>>>>
>>>> Everything currently available is from the Todd-AO production. The
>>>> DVD is of very mediocre quality, being a single sided disc that is
>>>> neither dual layer nor anamorphic. The first LDs were from the
>>>> CinemaScope version, later followed by the Todd-AO. You might
>>>> check eBay once or twice a week and you may be able to find the
>>>> old CinemaScope LD sooner or later. It may not be the easiest way
>>>> of getting it, but you get too winded.
>>>>
>>>> Marty
>>>
>>> Actually, if you can get it and play PAL videos, I think the current
>>> UK widescreen VHS is from the CinemaScope version
>>>
>>> Don
>>
>> Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
>> DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
>> knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
>> 2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
>> Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
>>
>> Charles
>> nzvideos.org
>
> I believe that the last US laserdisc release, which I own, was the
> Todd AO version. It also included a documentary about the production
> and showed the differences between the two films. I might be wrong
> though, and will have to dig out my laserdisc to confirm.
>
> I realize that this is wishy-washy, but a big point was made of the
> version of the film at the time the disc was released.

Yes - the original laserdisc issue was produced from the CinemaScope master.
The final issue was produced from the restored Todd AO version, and was an
enormous step-up from the previous issue. I've seen a lengthy article
describing the differences between the two versions, but can't now find a
link to it.....

AFAIR, the surviving 'scope elements are too far gone to restore to a decent
standard.

Guest

P Pron wrote:
> Warchild wrote:
> > In article <>,
> > Charles Eggen <> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:10:49 +0000, Don Carter <>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:29:58 GMT, Martin Hart
> >>> <> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In article
<>,
> >>>> says...
> >>>>> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there
> >>>>> an easy way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope
versions
> >>>>> of OKLAHOMA! on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to
> >>>>> buy a laserdisc of the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly
> >>>>> kicking myself ever since. (Which version is the latest DVD
> >>>>> release?)
> >>>>
> >>>> Everything currently available is from the Todd-AO production.
The
> >>>> DVD is of very mediocre quality, being a single sided disc that
is
> >>>> neither dual layer nor anamorphic. The first LDs were from the
> >>>> CinemaScope version, later followed by the Todd-AO. You might
> >>>> check eBay once or twice a week and you may be able to find the
> >>>> old CinemaScope LD sooner or later. It may not be the easiest
way
> >>>> of getting it, but you get too winded.
> >>>>
> >>>> Marty
> >>>
> >>> Actually, if you can get it and play PAL videos, I think the
current
> >>> UK widescreen VHS is from the CinemaScope version
> >>>
> >>> Don
> >>
> >> Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and
the
> >> DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> >> knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained
the
> >> 2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
> >> Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
> >>
> >> Charles
> >> nzvideos.org
> >
> > I believe that the last US laserdisc release, which I own, was the
> > Todd AO version. It also included a documentary about the
production
> > and showed the differences between the two films. I might be
wrong
> > though, and will have to dig out my laserdisc to confirm.
> >
> > I realize that this is wishy-washy, but a big point was made of the
> > version of the film at the time the disc was released.
>
> Yes - the original laserdisc issue was produced from the CinemaScope
master.
> The final issue was produced from the restored Todd AO version, and
was an
> enormous step-up from the previous issue. I've seen a lengthy article
> describing the differences between the two versions, but can't now
find a
> link to it.....
>
> AFAIR, the surviving 'scope elements are too far gone to restore to a
decent
> standard.
>
> paul

Guest

Several years ago American Movie Classics (before they went down the
tubes and started showing commericals during the feature) presented
Oklahoma in the Cinemascope and ToddAO versions back to back. I
recorded both and compared them side by side. There are certainly
differences. Unfortunately when I moved recently I apparently
misplaced both copies.

>
> Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
> DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
> 2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
> Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
>
Yes, you're wrong. The last LD and only DVD is the 2.2:1 70mm Todd-AO
version. The first (or second to last) LD was from the 35mm Cinemascope
2.55 version (or was it a mag-optic 2.35 release?) Anyway, Todd-AO was
never 2.55.

Guest

Charles Eggen <> wrote:
> Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
> DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
> 2.55:1 Todd-AO version.

In article <>,
says...
>
> Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
> DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
> 2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
> Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
>
> Charles
> nzvideos.org

From a composition standpoint, both the CinemaScope and the Todd-AO
laser disc versions are quite acceptable, with the CinemaScope being
approximately 2.55:1 and the Todd-AO being 2.2:1.

Todd-AO is a 65mm format with a screen ratio of 2.2:1, and was used in
the roadshow version of "Oklahoma!". The general release version of the
film was made in CinemaScope, a 35mm anamorphic system. Both "Carousel"
and "The King and I" were filmed in CinemaScope 55, which used a
negative width of 55.625mm. CinemaScope 55, like the original magnetic
sound version of 35mm CinemaScope, had a screen ratio of 2.55:1.

In my opinion, the two different versions of "Oklahoma!" are much more
alike than some people seem feel. There are points in the film, such as
the main title, where the two films are dramatically different, but the
two versions were shot with lenses that had approximately the same
horizontal angular coverage, with the Todd-AO taking in a bit more in
the vertical dimension. The video transfer of the CinemaScope version
isn't as brilliant as the Todd-AO version but it's up to the standards
that were common at the time it was made. A new transfer, using today's
best systems, should be made. Todd-AO looks a whole lot better than the
current DVD would lead you to believe. An example of how good it could
look can be seen in Warner Home Video's DVD of "Around The World In 80
Days." "Oklahoma!" deserves better treatment.

<SNIP>
> Yes - the original laserdisc issue was produced from the CinemaScope master.
> The final issue was produced from the restored Todd AO version, and was an
> enormous step-up from the previous issue. I've seen a lengthy article
> describing the differences between the two versions, but can't now find a
> link to it.....

The Todd-AO version has not been "restored". The negative was sent
through the film scanner and whatever color correction that was required
to fix the faded negative was done in NTSC video. A real restoration
would result in the production of a state of the art duplicate negative
from which intermediate materials may be struck for future demands.
Scanning a film into low rez video should never be confused with
restoration.
> AFAIR, the surviving 'scope elements are too far gone to restore to a decent
> standard.

The CinemaScope negative should be in far better condition than the
Todd-AO negative. This is because the CinemaScope prints were made in
dye transfer Technicolor, a process that requires handling of the
negative a minimal number of times and all prints are struck from three
matrix films created from the negative.

The Todd-AO negative, on the other hand, had to be run through the
optical or contact printer, depending on whether or not rectification
was required, for each and every print shipped to a theatre.

If 200 Technicolor prints were required then the negative went through
Technicolor's optical printer THREE times, to capture the red, green,
and blue elements in the image. If 200 Todd-AO prints were required then
the negative ran through the printer TWO HUNDRED times. Technicolor
could produce tens of thousands of the CinemaScope prints with less wear
and tear on the negative than a few hundred Todd-AO prints.

In article <1TCGd.53626$>, says...
>
> >
> > Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
> > DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> > knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
> > 2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
> > Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
> >
> Yes, you're wrong. The last LD and only DVD is the 2.2:1 70mm Todd-AO
> version. The first (or second to last) LD was from the 35mm Cinemascope
> 2.55 version (or was it a mag-optic 2.35 release?) Anyway, Todd-AO was
> never 2.55.

You are correct, Paul. The CinemaScope transfer uses the full 2.55:1
frame.

In article <>, says...
> Charles Eggen <> wrote:
>
> > Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
> > DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
> > knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
> > 2.55:1 Todd-AO version.
>
> Yes, you are wrong.
>
> 2.20:1 is Todd-AO (or any 70mm gauge process).

You forget that Ultra Panavision 70 had a total aspect ratio of 2.76:1.
(2.21 X 1.25x squeeze ratio). Additionally, dozens of 70mm prints have
been made by blowing up 35mm negatives that have an aspect ratio of less
than 2.21:1.
> 2.55:1 is CinemaScope with mag (rather than optical) tracks.
>
> -- jayembee
>

In article <DqDGd.9480$>, says...
> Of course the thing that really moved me with Todd-AO was how bright it was,
> and how little flicker there was. Those aren't variables that get
> translated to disk.
>

Depending on just how sensitive to video frame rates, there could very
well be noticeably less flicker in the Todd-AO video. The first two
Todd-AO films were made at 30 frames per second, the same rate as NTSC
television. There was no need to do the normal 3:2 pulldown trick to get
a smooth image. Personally, I don't see much of the normal NTSC
artifacts but I've got a couple of friends that are exceptionally
sensitive to it, so the 30 fps speed of the Todd-AO version is much
better for them.

<> wrote in message
newsqDGd.9480$...
> Of course the thing that really moved me with Todd-AO was how bright it
> was,
> and how little flicker there was. Those aren't variables that get
> translated to disk.

TODD AO was shot at 30 FPS, which results in a significant improvement in
flicker and strobing due to the 25%
increase in temporal resolution. This is why I shoot my own movies at 30p
instead of 24p because they WANT to
get that "film look." 30 frames per second retains the "dreamy" quality of
film, because the arrival rate of new information
is still slower than the image processing rate of the brain which is about
44, but gives a smoother motion.

A properly done Film to digital transfer from a TODD-AO original would be at
30 (actually 29.95) frames, 1080 lines
resolution. This will playback... once the equipment is available... at
1080i. Even a DVD downconverted from such
1080 line masters will exhibit the superior temporal properties.

Guest

ZEKE, the NERDS wrote:
> TODD AO was shot at 30 FPS, which results in a significant
improvement in
> flicker and strobing due to the 25%
> increase in temporal resolution. This is why I shoot my own movies at
30p
> instead of 24p because they WANT to
> get that "film look." 30 frames per second retains the "dreamy"
quality of
> film

Isn't this an argument for shooting filmed TV shows at 30 fps instead
of 24? (I can picture producers saying, "Oh, of COURSE we want to spend
25% more on film stock ...")

I wouldn't propose this for theatrical features - I'm thinking it's too
much of a 24 fps world out there. But for films made strictly for TV,
it could be especially welcome with the advent of HDTV. And wouldn't it
be easier to convert 30 fps films to 25 fps PAL?

Martin Hart <> wrote:
> The CinemaScope negative should be in far better condition than the
> Todd-AO negative. This is because the CinemaScope prints were made in
> dye transfer Technicolor, a process that requires handling of the
> negative a minimal number of times and all prints are struck from three
> matrix films created from the negative.
>
> The Todd-AO negative, on the other hand, had to be run through the
> optical or contact printer, depending on whether or not rectification
> was required, for each and every print shipped to a theatre.

Prints are rarely made from the original negative. They are generally
made from an internegative, precisely so that the original negative
needs only be handled once.

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