Last time I emailed Scott at the info email, he said Justin is available and to email him. I did, but haven't heard anything back from him. I really hope that we hear from him soon, as my interactions with him and playtesting was the most fun I've had with Super Dungeon in a long time.

The guy who suggested rewriting the rules doesn't work for SPM. It was my husband, another fan of the game.Believe me, I understand how impaitent everyone has gotten over the delays that this rewrite has caused, but that post was made to point out that the fans of the game that like the game so much to back the Legends Kickstarter want it to be the best game it can be.

As for the future of SPM? With last months exclusive Candy, and the orders being available for the Tusk Raider this month, maybe they're trying something new with one new mini a month out while the KS wraps up. Maybe this is them trying to make a release schedule and stick to it.

I don't have a crystal ball, so I cant say what the future will hold, but I'm willing to stick with SPM and find out.

I read a comment on the kickstarter that John Cadice was talking about the future of SDE releases. Apparently he said that they plan on doing more of the single model resin Miniatures as online store exclusives. I can't find the right comment, cuz I'm not good with looking around on Facebook. If anybody can find it and see what exactly it said, that'd be great.

I know I would be okay with that business model, but it kind of sucks for the rest of the world that have to import it at high shipping costs.

I agree and disagree. Were the previous rules perfect? No. But a rewrite just stagnated the franchise a bit. I think an after- kickstarter erratta would have been the best bet, or at least, like many have said, if you were to rewrite the rules, getting minis and cards that were compatible with current product and THEN sending new revised rules afterwards would probably been, not only time efficient, but cost- efficient as well.

I agree with everything this poster said.

eternaldream wrote:

I am happy with the rewrite. I think they have a very difficult decision to make, and both options were going to leave people upset.

Option one was to leave the rules as is. While that would have gotten us the game quicker, the longevity of the game might suffer. The rules as they were in Forgotten King were all right... but things would get stale fast. Especially Arcade Mode, which seemed to just be tacked on.

Option two was a complete overhaul of the rules. This would delay the project, but hopefully set a new foundation for all other releases to build on. Both Classic and Arcade got revamped, with the latter being greatly improved.

I think number two was the best option to take, but it still had its hardships. Obviously we are still waiting on it all. We also don't know how much the Legends rewrites and Deke's health delayed things too. As someone who has written and ran D&D campaigns, it can be a very long and daunting process.

I disagree, and say that Option One would have been the better option. The hiring of Justin has been a great move for the game system, not going to argue that. But hiring Justin took the timeline from approximately April 2016 through April of 2017, just to revamp the rules to what SDE2 is now. The FK rules, though not perfect, were done and playable, so you'd skip most of the rewrite. Justin is then still probably hired in August 16, because at that point the writing on Legends still wasn't complete. Legends so far has taken from the aforementioned April 2017 until November 2017 (last Beta Update), or ~8 months.

So timeline for Option 1:-FK rules are used, so Deke is working on Legends rules, with the first Beta in April 2016. -Beta hits a brick wall and spins out until Justin gets in in August 2016.-The KS still doesn't have any deliverables because of the necessary rules overhaul. They probably go with a Wave 1, Wave 2 -Justin works for ~8 months on Legends rules, which puts us where we were three months ago, but now on May 2017.-Fast forward, today would be September 2017 instead. We are probably told to expect Wave 1 in the coming weeks, instead of the apology and explanation for delays. The growing tension between Backers and SPM is probably half gone (my own tension is probably gone).-If we get Legends in real life before next year, you may have had it in your hands on this date under Option 1. Then we're complaining about how the whole game needs a rules rewrite, but at least I can expect it in the new Kickstarter starting this month.

Instead, we are where we stand today, the hope of a product, a very overpriced release a few days ago, and pretty much "**** You SPM" in the comments section of the Legends KS (Oh god, it's bad). What you called the "best option" has destroyed SPM's reputation for running a Kickstarter, which considering how many big SPM projects have come out via Kickstarter (SDE, NAS, RK, RK2, RRI, WotF), I don't know if they get the backer support for the next time around.

Salaura wrote:

SuperHappyTime wrote:

1. Fire the guy who suggested you rewrite the rules.

The guy who suggested rewriting the rules doesn't work for SPM. It was my husband, another fan of the game.

Then fire the dummy who listened to everybody. It was a dumb move for SPM and has horribly ruined their reputation as a successful Kickstarter.

Well, I think they were just unprepared from the get-go about how to handle the Kickstarter. I think they should have done some more research and playtesting before they launched it. They should have had the 2.0 rules ready to go at the beginning, as well as a better foundation for Legends. I still don't like the delays, but I'm happy with the state of the game currently. My only bummer is Legends because it doesn't have a true Arcade mode. I'll have to make my own.

I disagree, and say that Option One would have been the better option.

Then fire the dummy who listened to everybody. It was a dumb move for SPM and has horribly ruined their reputation as a successful Kickstarter.

Except Option 1 is the worst option, if you are looking long term! What would they do...just send out the miniatures and cards to backers and...what? Destroy the moulds as they are only making it KS or what way does this work? I was under the assumption the KS was to held fund the production of all the sets with the end goal to get them to retail, not solely as a pre-order system.

How would this work, realistically? Make the KS warbands and solo minis and reprint Forgotten King to go on the shelves as they work on the new rules, because I see a glaring issue in that people would pick up FK in stores and shelve it shortly after as the gameplay was pretty mediocre. What incentive is there to buy the new sets if their experience of the core game is just...bad?

Oh but the new rules, right! So how do they get these out? It includes a lot of new cards and boards so not viable to just .pdf it, gonna have to be a physical release so would they send "upgrade packs" into the wild...because that didnt work well for the card packs for the original SDE, they became impossible to find anywhere, so possibly direct through the SPM webstore (and its inevitable problems, especially shipping costs). Will there be a leaflet included in newer FK reprints stating there is a newer ruleset out and the player can go buy that now?

So, we now have the image of someone grabbing a box of FK off a store shelf (or through Amazon), opening it up and greeted with an old ruleset and a brochure of where to buy the "proper" rules can be bought is not a great 1st impressions for people. And double that if they try the FK rules and figure its not worth it as the newer rules might be just as bad! So it gets shelved or sold. Or if they then bundle the new rules into future reprints...well thats just what 2.0 is anyway!

But...and heres the crux of this....and your argument....you would have got your stuff on time though...so its all good, right? Sorry, but your post just sounds like the same, tired ranting I've seen here and on the KS page:

"I want my toys and I want them NOW!!"

Oh, the delays are frustrating, and I would like to see some confirmed pics or details on the status of the production, but when it comes to getting this product to retail and a person picking it up off a shelf....time doesnt matter in that instance! So their "KS brand" is tarnished....and? SDE 2.0 is a strong enough game to stand on its own and has a great visual style to sell itself, so the fact all the online chatter is about how it was delayed for so long...that wont matter if its sitting on a shelf in front of them or available online, since most reviews of the actual game will probably be favorable.

Better to have a delayed, good game than an "on time" bad one!

I would argue they should pull back from KS anyways as they need to focus on the games they have and start a healthy series of releases once SDE 2.0 and RK 2.0 release, rather than dive into another KS and start the cycle again. Or at the very least wait until they have everything ready and tested (internally and externally) before hitting the big "GO" button. Wil it be reduced as some still hold a grudge...yes! But if they have a solid ruleset available to show and some good miniatures, they will still get backers interested in it. But thats a discussion for another year.

I disagree, and say that Option One would have been the better option.

Then fire the dummy who listened to everybody. It was a dumb move for SPM and has horribly ruined their reputation as a successful Kickstarter.

Except Option 1 is the worst option, if you are looking long term! What would they do...just send out the miniatures and cards to backers and...what? Destroy the moulds as they are only making it KS or what way does this work? I was under the assumption the KS was to held fund the production of all the sets with the end goal to get them to retail, not solely as a pre-order system.

How would this work, realistically? Make the KS warbands and solo minis and reprint Forgotten King to go on the shelves as they work on the new rules, because I see a glaring issue in that people would pick up FK in stores and shelve it shortly after as the gameplay was pretty mediocre. What incentive is there to buy the new sets if their experience of the core game is just...bad?

Oh but the new rules, right! So how do they get these out? It includes a lot of new cards and boards so not viable to just .pdf it, gonna have to be a physical release so would they send "upgrade packs" into the wild...because that didnt work well for the card packs for the original SDE, they became impossible to find anywhere, so possibly direct through the SPM webstore (and its inevitable problems, especially shipping costs). Will there be a leaflet included in newer FK reprints stating there is a newer ruleset out and the player can go buy that now?

So, we now have the image of someone grabbing a box of FK off a store shelf (or through Amazon), opening it up and greeted with an old ruleset and a brochure of where to buy the "proper" rules can be bought is not a great 1st impressions for people. And double that if they try the FK rules and figure its not worth it as the newer rules might be just as bad! So it gets shelved or sold. Or if they then bundle the new rules into future reprints...well thats just what 2.0 is anyway!

But...and heres the crux of this....and your argument....you would have got your stuff on time though...so its all good, right? Sorry, but your post just sounds like the same, tired ranting I've seen here and on the KS page:

"I want my toys and I want them NOW!!"

Oh, the delays are frustrating, and I would like to see some confirmed pics or details on the status of the production, but when it comes to getting this product to retail and a person picking it up off a shelf....time doesnt matter in that instance! So their "KS brand" is tarnished....and? SDE 2.0 is a strong enough game to stand on its own and has a great visual style to sell itself, so the fact all the online chatter is about how it was delayed for so long...that wont matter if its sitting on a shelf in front of them or available online, since most reviews of the actual game will probably be favorable.

Better to have a delayed, good game than an "on time" bad one!

I would argue they should pull back from KS anyways as they need to focus on the games they have and start a healthy series of releases once SDE 2.0 and RK 2.0 release, rather than dive into another KS and start the cycle again. Or at the very least wait until they have everything ready and tested (internally and externally) before hitting the big "GO" button. Wil it be reduced as some still hold a grudge...yes! But if they have a solid ruleset available to show and some good miniatures, they will still get backers interested in it. But thats a discussion for another year.

Hi, me again! I whole-heartedly disagree with your point on that being the worst option, and that this delay has hurt them more than it's helped them, and I'll tell you why!

True, people want their stuff, that's a fact. Taking care of the backers should be equal priority togetting the game to retail, if for no other reason: they're your advertisements! Word of mouth is free and your reputation travels as such, and people remember when they've had good experiences! I learned about SDE via a friend, not through research orstore- browsing. I don't even think at the time, games like SDE made it to mainstream retailers. Even FK made it only to select Barnes and Nobles, and that's still kinda a niche market. The fact of the matter is, time is getting away from ND and time is money, bot in and out of house. People forget and lose interest; it's a new generation out there and the internet has made us all OCD to the max!

As for the molds argument. Any way you slice it, the molds are going to have to be replaced, but it took a heck of a long time to have to remake both the Roxor molds AND the Von Drakk molds, and even some of those are still in tact after all these years. So getting people their stuff first (at least plastic- wise) would have been the better solution to ensure good advertising, especially if the new rules had to be put into place. The biggest challenge is the time slots for mold- making, because, let's not forget, not only are they competing for slots with other board game companies, but they're competing with EVERY industry that uses that factory for plastic goods, and that can be LITERALLY anything and everything, not even counting if they are a multi- faceted company who has other manufaturing businesses other than just plastic. That means, an (estimated) line of 100 people before you now just became 1000! That's alot of wait time to stagnate and not be making any money... :3

As for retail release, I understand why they did what they did, but if I were them, I would've put out what I had instead of changing everything out of... a somewhat greed i think it's safe to say; the rerelease of SDE and breaking it into bites to be 2 seperate games, does make it more profitable per unit, but assuming they were planning split releases (which is what I assume is currently on the ND docket) the SMARTEST THING to do would've been as followed:

1) Release Crown Guard and Frostbyte Ravager warbands FIRST. Especially on their site. Bundle it with Arena as a package deal and push Arena to start. Old fans get something to whet their whistle if they wanna get extra sets and newbies can see an Orcs vs Humans skirmish game to get their first taste of the SD franchise.

2) Given the current format of Arcade and "Explore" either release Arcade FIRST OR (better option) release "Explore" under the Midnight Tower setting, and heres why:

a) Old players get something new to purchase that adds to their collectionb) Old players (who don't know of original SDE) get to try out the game with still adorable characters even if their not the ones we remember (who cares, new crowd)c) ND can be making profit off of already- made molds that are currently sitting in storage waiting to e used, as opposed to stagnating trying to get new molds made for old characters

3) Release Starfire set as either "Explore" or (again better option) as Arcade. Players who ant an Arcade experience still get one, and old players still have incentive to buy it because the Arcade cards for Midnight Tower would be ther :3

That all said, I know why they did it this way, Arcade as Midnight Tower and Explore as Dragonback: because if Roxor 2.0 is ay indicator, most everyone is drowing in orignal SDE content, so a repurchase of old things isn't really justified other than just new cards and many people have stated that. But they were worried that if they released MIdnight Tower stuff first, nobody would EVER buy 2.0, because, let's face ti, SDE IS niche,a and there's a TON of competition, so their origial game backers will be the ones supporting the franchise more than "casual gamers. XP

Now, that all said, in no way is this an attack on anyone; Scott and Lawrence have been most helpful to me as of late, and I don't blame the business for trying to preserve itself, but there just would've been more staying power if it had been in the public eye.

It's interesting to see the split in opinion on the rewrite of the rules. I'm firmly in the pro-rewrite camp, especially hearing playtest and beta reports that are just glowing. I love Super Dungeon, and making it even better makes me very happy. I am on the edge of my seat to play the new stuff (though I can't be bothered to print out the new rules myself, and I'm using the delay as an excuse to get more stuff painted). I am relieved and delighted that they rewrote the rules, because it's going to make a better game.

Yes I completely understand that camp that really wants their stuff on time. Hell, I want my stuff on time. I have a big steamer trunk with foam inlays that I cut myself to hold all the new minis, and right now it just sits there half-empty, making me sad inside. I am getting more stuff painted, and I am pleased at that, but unless they delay another two years I'm not going to get all my existing minis painted first anyway. I paint slow.

So I completely understand both camps, and I'm sure that with hindsight, SPM wishes they had made a few different decisions. But I'm still really excited, and if people hate the game now I just feel sad for them.

The way I imagine things went down, in very simple terms, is they had the original plan. This was to very minorly update the rules for the two main game modes, then release a minor to moderate add-on and call it legends. Then, there was a fan uprising that said "hey, the rules are way more broken than a little patch is capable of genuinely fixing. It's time for an overhaul". Weather you think it's right or not, that's what happened. So, they decided they would do that, and it would take a while. This we all know to be true. Where my speculation starts is that they saw this delay as an opportunity to also expand legends beyond it's original scope. From add-on peripheral to full on game in it's own right. But, they miscalculated the time this would take. Instead of happening and finishing in tandem with the core mode rewrites, it encompassed and exceeded that time, causing an even bigger delay, overall.

This isn't an argument for or against either side. This is just something I Think happened that helped to compound the delay and make it longer than originally intended. Add to that the health problems that also delayed, at the very least, legends and you end up where we are now. To me, it may be far from ideal. But it's also understandable.

So i'm definitely in pro-rewrite camp. Primarily because I think it is likely best in the long run, though a gamble to be sure. They are most definitely hemorrhaging good will and stagnating so to speak as a brand at the moment. But if they pull it off and the game is fresh and awesome? That will overcome it all. Much more so than a kludgy set of base games, errata documents, and update packs would.

The game is niche, and as such I'd say kind of not in the public eye to begin with. It was the old fans that primarily backed Legends, alongside gamers at least familiar with the IP. A fresh set of amazing rules and new entry-points into the franchise has the opportunity to change that. Like I said above, it's a bit of a gamble knowing how it's currently going, but a gamble with the potential to pay off big.

Something Ive been wondering on this topic: how long of a lead out will there be for reprints (& resupplying stores) of the existing level packs/tiles/boss packs?

While it wont affect most of us who have a good load of the sets, if 2.0 and Arcade do the business at retail there will be a lot of demand for more shinys. Or will there be a gap after all the new stuff is launched and release themed releases with legends source books (Glaudroom Moor with the VonDrakk Level, VD Manor Tile set, Stilt Town warband, Beatrix Boss and some single hero/mini bosses all arriving at once)? But how will the counter this with our demand for new sets?

While this could be dripped out over several years (giving a few months gap between them) but thats sending out product that might not sell as well, given the existing player base will have a good chunk of it already!

That's a great question, Danteire. I do hope the demand stays high enough to justify reprinting some of the older stuff. I think the very low availability of a lot of SDE products is hurting them right now. And if they ever release alternate cards for the Roxor minions I'm going to be upset if I can't get it when they do. I passed on it for now because I would buying a whole box to get one new mini (the different Roxor pose) and that's just not worth it.

But then, I also hope there's enough demand to keep coming up with new stuff. I could see myself buying new Super Dungeon for the next decade, so I really hope the game keeps kicking out new, cool stuff.

I do hope the demand stays high enough to justify reprinting some of the older stuff. I think the very low availability of a lot of SDE products is hurting them right now.

Unfortunately this hits at whats going to be the biggest hurdle facing SPM after the KS: they need to sort out international availability. I heard some stores here in Europe have gotten SDE stuff from Beatrix onwards...but not near me, and my local has had a lot of SPM stuff over the years (remember seeing the old metal Kobolds and some original RK stuff years ago) but NAS was the last batch of stuff they ever got in. They did sell through the SPM stuff though; only one lone FK core set for a while and some NAS Ronin remain, so not like its unwanted here.

If they cant rectify this shortage (or whatever hassle is impacting distributors) then this whole 2.0, relaunch concept is shot in the foot immediately! Though I have seen some ND published games here, just not anything SPM related.

Doomseeker will be a good indicator of this (if it hits its Summer release date), as a GW licensed game not hitting the EU market (GWs largest concentration of fans) would be commercial suicide for that game/license. So if it gets through fine, and not the SDE 2.0 launch wave, has there been logistical problems with only SPM stuff...or reluctance?