Yeah the upfront costs can be shocking. Even with monthly service fees, rather then lifetime, having to lay out several hundred bucks right now is hard for a lot of people. And if you do go lifetime the upfront cost is enormous. I paid nearly $1K for my Roamio Pro with lifetime. There aren't a lot of people who can afford that kind of outlay just for a DVR, even if it does save them money over the long term.

Yeah the upfront costs can be shocking. Even with monthly service fees, rather then lifetime, having to lay out several hundred bucks right now is hard for a lot of people. And if you do go lifetime the upfront cost is enormous. I paid nearly $1K for my Roamio Pro with lifetime. There aren't a lot of people who can afford that kind of outlay just for a DVR, even if it does save them money over the long term.

If I decide to buy a Mercedes SLS GT Coupe for $200K+ over a Mercedes CLA-Class Coupe for $29,900 then I shouldn't be shocked at the cost. You could of bought the Roamio base model for 1/3rd the cost at $199!

To put this in perspective my iPhone 5S cost me the same $199 as the Roamio but the service contract for 2 years (not lifetime) cost me $2,160 for a total cost of $2,359.00. Each additional year is another $1,080.

Yet I don't see anyone, including pre-teens, getting a bit worked up over it.

But in the TiVo group people are ready to revolt over the cost of a TiVo. And then there's the irony that TiVo has never been profitable and yet gets painted as greedy for it's prices where Apple, with $150 billion in profits, still sells a two 1/2 year old iPad 2 for $399 and is commended for it high margins.

And as for holding it's value while my iPhone 4S was worth $99 after two years a Premiere with lifetime after four years is *still* worth ~$400.

And as for holding it's value while my iPhone 4S was worth $99 after two years a Premiere with lifetime after four years is *still* worth ~$400.

You got ripped off on the iPhone. I just traded mine in to Amazon for $185. Considering that is almost what I paid for it it seems like a pretty good deal. I know with the contract I actually paid more, but the service fee is the same no matter if you use an iPhone 5s or an iPhone 3G so the fact that you can break even and get a "free" upgrade every 2 years is why most people don't balk much at the cost of cell phones. If they lowered the service fee after the contract expired I think people would look at it different.

TiVos with lifetime also tend to hold a good bit of their value, but not as much as they use to. It use to be that you could sell a used TiVo with lifetime for the cost of lifetime + $50-$100 for the hardware. These days people are selling Premiere units with iifetime for ~$400 making the hardware basically useless. A Premiere without lifetime is worth maybe $40. (You can buy a new 4 tuner on clearance for $60) that doesn't give me high hopes about the resale value of the $600 Roamio I just bought. If in 3 years it's only worth the price of lifetime then I will have paid about $17/mo to own it. Not something I couldn't afford, but not quite the value proposition it use to be.

This whole debate is the result of the ubiquity of credit and the "monthly payment" mentality held by so many people. I think my biggest pet peeve on this topic is cell phones. How many people would own an iPhone or other smart phone if the cellular companies did not subsidize the cost.

Option #1: $99 for the new iPhone 5c with 2-yr agreement....sign me up.
Option #2: $549 for the new iPhone 5c without a contract.....I can't afford that!

Yet, people fail to realize they'll simply be paying a monthly cellular service bill that is about $20 more than it would have to be otherwise. If you don't upgrade that phone right after the 2 years is up, your just throwing that $20 away on your monthly cellular bill.

I would rather have the option of a full price phone with no contract and reduced monthly rates and keep that smart phone for 3 years and save money in the long run.

A Premiere without lifetime is worth maybe $40. (You can buy a new 4 tuner on clearance for $60) that doesn't give me high hopes about the resale value of the $600 Roamio I just bought. If in 3 years it's only worth the price of lifetime then I will have paid about $17/mo to own it. Not something I couldn't afford, but not quite the value proposition it use to be.

I'm much more optimistic about the Roamio retaining value than I was the Premiere. It has enough horsepower to be adaptable in the future. I expect it will be usable until whatever replaces cablecards comes into the marketplace, which will be longer than 3 years.

[..] get a "free" upgrade every 2 years is why most people don't balk much at the cost of cell phones.

It's because they don't have to pay $2,359 upfront to get a cellphone!

TiVo is NOT expensive when compared to other things people buy with contracts. I used cellphones as the most obvious example but leasing cars is another. Ever wonder how an 18 year old working P/T drives a new $40,000 BMW?

What TiVo should do is use some of that $1 billion cash to allow payment of Roamio in monthly installments just like cellphones. A Roamio with lifetime would cost $29.99/mo 2-year contract. Or a Roamio Pro + monthly would cost $39.99/mo 2-year contract. $14.95/mo after that.

But I guess TiVo feels that's not the problem. I will say TiVo going after smaller cable companies seems to be paying off. The Virgin Media deal alone has done wonders.

This whole debate is the result of the ubiquity of credit and the "monthly payment" mentality held by so many people. I think my biggest pet peeve on this topic is cell phones. How many people would own an iPhone or other smart phone if the cellular companies did not subsidize the cost.

Option #1: $99 for the new iPhone 5c with 2-yr agreement....sign me up.
Option #2: $549 for the new iPhone 5c without a contract.....I can't afford that!

Yet, people fail to realize they'll simply be paying a monthly cellular service bill that is about $20 more than it would have to be otherwise. If you don't upgrade that phone right after the 2 years is up, your just throwing that $20 away on your monthly cellular bill.

I would rather have the option of a full price phone with no contract and reduced monthly rates and keep that smart phone for 3 years and save money in the long run.

At least Tivo affords me that opportunity with Lifetime.

Some providers charge the same amount for "service" whether they are subsidizing a phone or not, so you might as well upgrade. Especially if you can sell the old phone for roughly the same price as the upgrade. If you're going to pay the same rate then why not?

Like I said if providers actually lowered the service fee to reflect a non-subsidized phone then people might think differently. But really it's the providers who are screwing people over by charging the same whether they're subsidizing a phone or not.

I think the main reason TiVo's stab at the free + $20/mo plan failed was timing. At the time TiVos weren't very expensive ($250) and service was only $12.95/mo. So paying $20/mo for 2 years wasn't that great a deal. I think if they did something like that now with a Roamio Plus they'd have more takers. And if they did a whole home package with a Roamio Plus and 2 Mini's for $35/mo people would do that too.

Just picked up a Mini yesterday and signed up for Lifetime service through the website. Is it unusual to pay sales tax on the service though? My understanding was that only hardware from TiVo was subject to sales tax.

Just picked up a Mini yesterday and signed up for Lifetime service through the website. Is it unusual to pay sales tax on the service though? My understanding was that only hardware from TiVo was subject to sales tax.

It depends on which state you live in. In some states, due to TiVo having a business presence there, etc, they need to charge sales tax on the service fee.

Some providers charge the same amount for "service" whether they are subsidizing a phone or not, so you might as well upgrade. Especially if you can sell the old phone for roughly the same price as the upgrade. If you're going to pay the same rate then why not?

Like I said if providers actually lowered the service fee to reflect a non-subsidized phone then people might think differently. But really it's the providers who are screwing people over by charging the same whether they're subsidizing a phone or not.

Well, it's exactly what they do in Europe. People only upgrade typically every 3-4 years because they are paying the actual cost of their handset device (an iPhone is typically about $800 USD)... and the service is quite a bit less expensive (unlimited minutes and text + a large amount of data for maybe $45-$65 per month in most countries).

I would like to see the US market go to that model but it won't happen. The person earlier who commented that US consumers can't see past the tip of their nose hit it on the head. 90% of consumers are wrapped around how much the "monthly" cost is of everything in their life, from a car payment, to rent, to cable, telephone, etc. They simply can't comprehend or appreciate that for some things they can pay cash up front and save quite a bit of money over time.... it's the "paycheck to paycheck" mentality.

I've seen people loading up on essentials like paper towels, toilet paper, garbage bags, etc, and paying $100 more at the grocery store than if they bought all that stuff at Costco or Sam's Club.... and they probably wonder where their money goes every month.

The OP strikes me as a classic whiner. I can't afford it, so it's not fair. Waah. I drove crappy cars for years and years so that I could eventually pay cash for a really nice car. Life's tough all over, make better choices.

I play on a pool league with a bunch of guys/gals who are constantly complaining about how broke they are and how they can barely afford the $7/week for league. I don't relate to that mentality at all! I haven't been broke since I was a teenager. I've always lived far enough below my means that I had a good chunk of cash in the bank to draw from if something came up or I wanted to splurge on something nice. I couldn't even imagine living so close to the line that one unexpected expense could throw me into hardship. But most people live that way their entire lives and think nothing of it.

I play on a pool league with a bunch of guys/gals who are constantly complaining about how broke they are and how they can barely afford the $7/week for league. I don't relate to that mentality at all! I haven't been broke since I was a teenager. I've always lived far enough below my means that I had a good chunk of cash in the bank to draw from if something came up or I wanted to splurge on something nice. I couldn't even imagine living so close to the line that one unexpected expense could throw me into hardship. But most people live that way their entire lives and think nothing of it.

You've got that right, and that describes most of my family too. They think I'm "rich" because I can splurge on nice stuff from time to time. They apparently don't recall that while I earn a decent salary, instead of spending every nickel of it I have always set aside a minimum of 10% of my wages for unforeseen emergencies. It means having a cushion and not worried that one missed paycheck will mean having my house foreclosed on! By comparison as soon as they come into a little money they blow it. If they get a bump in their hourly wage they immediately go out and "fill in" that extra income by trading in their vehicle for a better one, etc. Yikes.

Some providers charge the same amount for "service" whether they are subsidizing a phone or not, so you might as well upgrade. Especially if you can sell the old phone for roughly the same price as the upgrade. If you're going to pay the same rate then why not?

Like I said if providers actually lowered the service fee to reflect a non-subsidized phone then people might think differently. But really it's the providers who are screwing people over by charging the same whether they're subsidizing a phone or not.

I agree that under the current systems of most cellular providers, it makes the most sense to upgrade right at the end of the 2 years to get the most value out of the inflated monthly service rate. I can dream of of discounted monthly rates for unsubsidized phone purchases, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon.

The person earlier who commented that US consumers can't see past the tip of their nose hit it on the head. 90% of consumers are wrapped around how much the "monthly" cost is of everything in their life, from a car payment, to rent, to cable, telephone, etc. They simply can't comprehend or appreciate that for some things they can pay cash up front and save quite a bit of money over time.... it's the "paycheck to paycheck" mentality.

Bingo. What's really sad is that those with that mentality are de facto locking themselves into that "paycheck to paycheck" lifestyle, from which escape is difficult if not impossible. It is the modern day equivalent of the "penny wise and pound foolish" mindset. Maybe our public school systems should consider obligatory courses in personal finance. The great majority of Americans haven't a clue how to manage their money.

Well, it's exactly what they do in Europe. People only upgrade typically every 3-4 years because they are paying the actual cost of their handset device (an iPhone is typically about $800 USD)... and the service is quite a bit less expensive (unlimited minutes and text + a large amount of data for maybe $45-$65 per month in most countries).

I would like to see the US market go to that model but it won't happen.

T-Mobile is changing that game, they are now no-contract and you can get 4 lines with unlimited talk/text + 500MB data for $100/mo. Phones are extra and can be paid for monthly or upfront. We just switched off of Sprint to get out of the forced 2-year contract & upgrade cycle because smartphones are good enough now (for us) to last longer than that.

T-Mobile is changing that game, they are now no-contract and you can get 4 lines with unlimited talk/text + 500MB data for $100/mo. Phones are extra and can be paid for monthly or upfront. We just switched off of Sprint to get out of the forced 2-year contract & upgrade cycle because smartphones are good enough now (for us) to last longer than that.

How do you share only 500MB between four phones? How do you only use 500MB on one phone?

I have a 2GB plan on my phone. I typically only use 100-300MB a month. The only reason I keep the 2GB plan is because the next step down is 200MB, which is $10 cheaper, but if you go over they charge you $15. And since I'm so close to 200MB most months it seems like too big of a gamble.

I work from home and when I am out I'm rarely unable to connect to wifi so I really don't use much data.

My billing cycle is only a few days old and i'm already over 1GB. I use Pandora everyday, plus Google and Verizon both back up my pictures and other content each night.

It is my observation that your usage patterns, whether it is having a 50TB UNRAID setup, having at one time 1/2 a dozen TiVo units, carting TiVos to your girlfriend's house, using gobs of 4G/LTE data, or your continual defense of Microsoft's mobile business strategy are....

How do you share only 500MB between four phones? How do you only use 500MB on one phone?

It's 500MB per line, and with Wifi fairly widespread the only way our family goes over that on a line is with video streaming. Normal usage won't do it. The only issue with T-Mo is their data coverage, specifically 4G/LTE.

It is rare that I can find a WiFi signal. My company does not provide public WiFi so nothing during that bulk of my day. And trying to play around with stream I was surprised how many restaurants no longer provide complimentary WiFi.

It suprises me being in a very metropolitan area - but I seem to live in a public WiFi desert!

The problem is, you can't, unless you find someone that still has stock somewhere. Moxi is no longer selling new units. Their technology has been folded into Arris. ReplayTV has also stopped selling new units. They are now part of the DirecTV family.

Besides, I don't think anyone can compare to the service you get from Tivo.

The problem is, you can't, unless you find someone that still has stock somewhere. Moxi is no longer selling new units. Their technology has been folded into Arris. ReplayTV has also stopped selling new units. They are now part of the DirecTV family.

Besides, I don't think anyone can compare to the service you get from Tivo.

- Byron

I think that was the point. TiVo has no retail competition left. Their only real competition are cable company DVRs and in most cases TiVo is a better deal long term. TiVo only considers Roku and AppleTV secondary competition.

Think of the service plan as a way to reduce TiVos cost of selling a Mini, assume that TiVo wanted to sell a Mini at retail for $250, if service was included, the retail outlet would take about 30% off list price to purchase from TiVo, so TiVo would net about $175 from say Best Buy, under the service plan option TiVo sells the Mini for about $70 to a retail outlet, then gets the full $150 for the so called lifetime service plan, giving TiVo a net gross sale for the Mini of about $220 or about $45 more for each Mini.