Surprisingly I find myself broadly in the Conservative camp. Bearing in mind that the question posed is broad in nature, I can think of plenty of things wrong with both the USA (Trump or no Trump) and Europe that I dislike and the single biggest Tory percentage is for ‘neither’.

The brexiteers are no happy with May. Not happy at all. There is a wee distraction occurring in Moscow this week that may save her bacon for a the time being. When England get kicked out, the despair will turn into anger. Unable to “bring it home”, the frustrated BritNats will turn their fury on an easier target. All hell is about to break loose.

The political theatre planned for this week will be carefully timed to avoid the England game, you will notice. Popcorn ready. 🙂

The two frightening things from that are
1) the fact that Tories think they know (Dont knows half of anyone else) and
2) that they “think” (see 1 above) that we can survive in splendid isolation (Neither twice anybody else)

” … I can think of plenty of things wrong with both the USA (Trump or no Trump) and Europe that I dislike and the single biggest Tory percentage is for ‘neither’.”

Here, tartanfever, is a couple of wee questions, (just for you personally), that I ask of those who have, “Things they dislike”, about Europe”, or rather the EU, and to which I have never ever had any answers that actually were sensible and/or reasonable, (and by reasonable I mean in the sense of being reasonably sensible answers).

Could you define exactly what it is about the European Union that you personally dislike? And why do you dislike them?

It kind of ranks along with the questions I ask those, usually on the doorstep, of those who say, “I dinna like yon alicsaminn/Sturginn wummin”, as being rather nebulous and somewhat undefined in reality.

‘Could you define exactly what it is about the European Union that you personally dislike? And why do you dislike them?’

That feeling of negativity so many people have to the EU is of course due to decades of anti-EU press, and Nigel Farage being inexplicably promoted by the BBC for years, which has taken hold as negative feeling in people. This is combined with a complete failure to report anything about how the EU works or what it really does.

And you’re right, people dont actually know anything about the EU, thats why they cant answer those question, they just have an opinion based on feelings which have been planted there by the media.

Even people who hold aloft the flaming sword of truth get blamed for doing it
The electorate want comfortable lies that fit their own personal agenda whether idological, sectarian, econonmical, racist, the modern day politician must find a language these groups can identify with, if that politician fails to soothe the savage fevered brows then the moderates who are the majority and who occupy the middle ground are shouted down by the extremes of all sides of what are the minority of people who favour the extreme

The SNP have been telling people the truth about Brexit since day one and here it is just as they said but on the one hand the ideologues refuse to be told they were wrong and on the other hand the sectarians and racists will always be sectarians and racists

I don’t believe a second referendum on Brexit will show a different result in England so what would be the point of Scotland taking part in a vote unless that vote included a separate arrangement for each Nation according to how they vote which would be the real democratic way to resolve what people actually want and NOT a population based vote where once again England votes for something completely different and the rest of the Nations just have to lump it all over again, and Scotlands separate option should be Independence or WTO Brexit, YES or NO

Dearie me Empire 2.0 hasn’t lasted long. The fall of the Roman Empire echoed in the Brexit farce – a decrease in agricultural production leading to higher food prices, a large trade deficit, the purchase of luxury goods but nothing to offer in exchange, inflation, disrupting the flow of trade and ‘it didn’t help matters that political amateurs were in control of Rome’

The EU is galvanising its trade deals and commerce and retains a strong focus on human rights. Meanwhile the Brexit enthusiasts have been premature on pinning their hopes on comrade Trumpinsky.

‘Today, Pierre Gattaz has taken office as President of BusinessEurope. CEO of Radiall and former President of the French business and employer federation Medef, he is succeeding Emma Marcegaglia. Two of his top priorities will be to increase employment and growth across Europe and to fight against protectionism…The European Union should continue to protect its interests in line with WTO rules and power ahead with a positive trade agenda, concluding ambitious agreements with like-minded partners’

‘Marcy Wheeler… revealed a source — she did so to the FBI, eventually becoming a witness in special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s investigation of President Trump’s possible connections to Russia…Her blog post centers on a text message … predicting that Michael Flynn, who would be Trump’s appointee for national security adviser, would be meeting with “Team Al-Assad” within 48 hours. Russia has been perhaps the Assad regime’s staunchest ally…The substance of the text — that the Trump team started focusing on Syria right after the election — has been corroborated and tied to their discussions with Russia at least twice since then’

Neo-liberal politics and alignment with the economics that go with that, deference to the IMF and World Bank that have seen the likes of Greece have to sell off public infrastructure for private gain. Support for far right wing groups in Ukraine and the, in terms of the Ukraine constitution, illegal coup that took place. The undemocratic appointment of politicians, especially in Italy, against the express will of the people in deference to EU economic policy, and of course the responses to events in Catalonia.

These are just a few for an example, otherwise I would be writing pages of stuff.

So while I understand that there has to be some form of trade, political and economic agreement, I personally would keep a slight distance in my alignment, much like EEA and EFTA countries may do or others that haven’t joined the Euro.

So my question to you is, bearing in mind the examples I’ve outlined, why would you be so keen to jump into bed with an organisation that operates and encourages such behaviour ?

Again, I would point out that I would have much the same view for a future relationship with the USA.

I really do wonder about some people. They are out there and I must pass them in the street.

In every poll there is a small percentage of folks who give answers which seem incredulous.

One such example is the 8% of SNP voters (25 people in the sample) who would like Scotland to align itself politically and economically with the USA. What have they been smoking!?

I can understand far right people being impressed by the US, but it represents the exact opposite of what most Scots want.

I once heard the US described as the richest third world country. True enough because although it overflows with wealth, it has third world style poverty, inequality, healthcare, benefits, and social services. Great if you are one of the top 20%, absolute shite if you in the bottom fifth. Shite far worse than shite here.

I saw recently, in twitter or perhaps a comment here, someone pointed out that as a mathematical necessity half of voters are below average IQ. It is worth considering perhaps 5-10% really don’t have a scoobie how the world around them actually functions. They stand out in every poll.

“We need the hardest of all Brexits to keep the IndyRef2 flame burning.”
————-
as much as i dislike cheering on misfortune which is likely to fall on scots, myself included, by a hard brexit, i believe it will help bolster the yes vote.

For me, Indy is not predicated on any result of Brexit, incompetence at Westminster or even the SNP (though I am a member).

It is simply about our Nation and our natural right to run our own affairs.

Good bad or indifferent, Brexit is transient and the outcome may or may not be good long term. Independence has to be won on its own merit. To tag it onto other circumstances is opportunistic and will get called out by those who oppose us taking our rightful place at home and in the world at large.

I’m all for using the Brexit farrago to highlight the division and unfairness of the current UK but I don’t wish harm to anyone, least of all our neighbours. Let England have her successes and hopefully some long overdue prosperity for the poverty stricken regions.

We in Scotland must make our own way. It will be a hard won prize but, in my opinion, well worth it

I took Mike Russell’s statement, not as some of the cuff comments, but as setting out a firm SNP/SG position.

Any new EURef really should be about who’s remaining close to EU and who’s leaving, in the context of the terms of the Divorce Treaty. England, Wales, Ni and Scotland have clear and distinct paths each could follow.

It doesn’t necessarily mean Irish reunification and Scottish independence. It could be framed in terms of much enhance devolution with parts of the UK in the single market. Stu laid it all out perfectly the other day.

The EU has already said it would accept NI remaining in the single market, so why not Scotland too? They have no excuse.

I think it would inevitably lead in reunification/Indy is a medium/longer time scale, but that should be another matter.

Remaining close to the EU should be the option on offer to each constituent nation. The critical thing, of course, if that nation should be able to chose its own path.

That’s democracy. I know, I know, it’s a really difficult concept for WM and especially the Tories.

Who are the real nationalists, well that’s dead easy the next time you’re in one of those arguments, and here it is, Britain marched or sailed around the world sticking their Britnat flag in other peoples lands and claiming ownership of all they surveyed land rivers and people and if the people didn’t like it the British killed them, the Brits even taught it to the Americans who flew to the damn Moon and claimed that as theirs,(still hoping for the spacemen to come and tell them different) how nationalist is that

That’s nationalism of the nasty type

I wave my Saltire about because it represents my country and I only want my own country back not everybody else’s

When people want to ‘align politically’ with Europe, does that mean the populist anti-immigration politics of Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, Poland, Austria, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, and Italy? Or does it mean the rather different politics of the Western states?

Nah! Dave, It is The Kingdom of Scotland People Vs The Britnat unionists – a.k.a. The Westminster Establishment and that, Dave, is what was described during both World Wars as a, “SNAFU”, situation which was politely explained as meaning, “Situation Normal-All Fouled Up or less politely as Situation … Och! I’m sure you can figure that out for yourself.

Enhanced devolution is an unthinkable non starter, Brits tell lies, always, and I’ve still got the bite marks from 2014 from the folk who believed the Brits might just might be honest, it’s Scotlands turn to do the biting now

Never trust Brits of any flavour colour or creed all they want is one thing a toe in the door so they can kick it all the way open when we need to be slamming it shut ….hard

” … And you’re right, people dont actually know anything about the EU, thats why they cant answer those question, they just have an opinion based on feelings which have been planted there by the media.”

Exactly so, Glamaig, but many years of attempting to argue with them taught me a very valuable lesson.

Strange as it might seem I eventually concluded that to attempt to argue with them only further served to strengthen their feelings, (for that is what they are), against whatever it was they were asserting without reasoned thought, (or more likely, with a head full of Britnat Propaganda and no thought).

Then I discovered, just by chance, the way to make then confront their own negativity was to ask them to simply explain, to auld ignorant me, what it was they didn’t like.

Thing is, if they did give a legitimate reason, I got the chance to debate with them why they were wrong but, if they couldn’t come up with a legitimate argument, they got the opportunity to debate with themselves what it was they had though was a good reason that wasn’t.

Of course it is, but not everyone quite realises that yet. Many Scots still see the middle ground as an option. IMO the SNP/SG should only back an EURef2 which allows Scotland take its own route of this mess if England chooses another. It’s a fair and reasonable approach.

All along Nicola has played this well by being reasonable and saying ongoing single market membership is a fair compromise. This needs to be extended into any EURef2.

And of course the Tories won’t go along with anything reasonable where their last colony, Scotland, is involved.

The whole scenario puts us in a very strong position when the Tories force everything to be about the UK as a whole. There are a lot of Scots who need to get their heads round the reality that it is a binary choice.

It’s the difference between what should, could, or actually will happen.

I see that Sturgeon is espousing Madeleine Albright’s attempt to make some extra money out of the populist lightning rod that is the frightening new world of authoritarian facists, who have no ties to the bankers, oil barons and warhawks who were behind the old bosses, no sir.

Allegedly, Tory MPs hang on to TMay because they know if there is a leadership election the wider membership are hard Brexit sympathising and will put in Rees-Mogg, or some other swivel eyed far right nutter.

However, I cannot see how any PM can withstand this, especially as you say, the EU are bound to reject TMay’s plan as it stands.

Last time TMay called a GE it was to get backing for her approach, and frankly that was rejected. I can’t see how she could go back without progress and even less of a plan.

So, yes. New leader who would seek a mandate for a hard Brexit.

That plan might succeed! Labour seem unlikely to get their act together to offer a different more popular (in England) approach to Brexit.

Every day, and every Tory action, takes Scotland a wee step closer to independence.

@gala
Scots who need to get their heads round the reality that it is a binary choice.
———–
bingo. by the time this ge kicks off, the fudge (a better deal…a good deal etc..) will have evaporated.

the options will be

tory, no deal (with every chance they will win)

labour, who knows and i doubt anyone will care, the bounce having gone from corbyns bungee

snp, sm/cu for the uk/scotland ( a position now supported by 70-80% of scots)

the ge probably wont change very much, but the planets are alighning for the snp and we could pick up/win back more than just a few seats. never a bad thing and will be a boost for the inevitable indyref2.

if corbyn can get his act together enogh to stop the tories winning a majority, it might just propel the snp into the position of king maker, at the very moment nicola asks for a section 30

the rodents are fleeing the ship so as to avoid the fallout that will accompany treeza when she finally comes back with the only deal available. (no cu/sm, 2 year transitional period and a customs border in the irish sea)

bojo and co dont want to go to brussels next week and come home waving that agreement and are counting on treeza to do it. I think they are right, treeza wont resign and there will be no leadership challenge until after the last round of negotiations on july 20th.

then they will mount their challenge and treeza will resign.

only question is, who will lead the brexiteer no deal tories into the inevitable ge that follows. my bet is jrm

It doesn’t matter if the SNP hold the balance of power at Westminster, the Tories and Labour are both pro-Brexit, both with offers that will be unacceptable for the EU. If you want to be in the SM & CU only independence offers any chance of achieving this, if you don’t want either then campaign after independence.

Those hanging their coat on the peg of leaving the EU then independence are not only be going to be disappointed but are likely to end up remaining tied to this union for decades.

SNP shouldn’t allow themselves to be conned into saying anything other than a straight indy vote is a proxy. Especially when that might mean there are yoons daft enough to vote against any attempt to remain in the EU as a way to undermine the SNP.

hung parliament, balance of power, difficult to predict in a FPTP election in england.

but should it arise, im willing to bet that the brexiteers would be happy to grant a section 30 to be shot of scots and leaving them with an over all majority. they believe their own propaganda about us being too wee, too poor etc.

If the EU is faithful to the main principles of the EU, and it shows every sign of doing so, then there is no other type of BR UKEXIT than the hardest possible exit.

The main European Union principles are the red-line Four Freedoms and both the EU and EC have been implacable by saying from day one, “You must adopt all four Freedoms or none of them – a.k.a. No Cherry Picking.

The Westminster BREXITeers think the EU & EC are bluffing and that they can have a SOFT BREXIT but that means one or more of the four freedoms would not be part of a deal to leave the EU while staying in just for one or more of the Four Freedoms – it simply is not going to happen.

If it did happen then all 27 other member states would be jostling for places in the queue to also do deals to have special treatment like the UK is attempting to negotiate and that would be the end of the EU.

Now if you want to know why the UK was signed up to all four freedoms in the first place it is because of how the EU works. Unlike, how the Westminster Propaganda has people believing, The EU cannot force any member state to do anything it doesn’t want to do, for unlike the UK, it has no powers to force EU rules on anyone.

This is because the EU works by consensus and because every member state has a veto. So if any member state doesn’t agree with an EU directive it has two options. If it doesn’t agree to follow an EU directive it just ignores it as Sweden does over adopting the Euro.

If it doesn’t agree with other states following EU directives then it can use its veto and prevent the matter becoming an EU directive in the first place.

So there you go – the UK has signed up to the four freedoms or there wouldn’t be four freedoms because the UK would have vetoed some of them.

Now if all that makes sense to you then ask yourself why Westminster hasn’t told the voters the truth and they and their tame, controlled, media kept you ignorant of the truth?

If a GE does result from this, the MSM will go hell for leather to ensure that the SNP loses another batch of WM seats. I know your response will be that the Holyrood mandate will still suffice, but remember, perception and momentum are everything. We cannot afford to suffer big loses at a GE. The MSM would have a field day and the SNP would be on the back foot.

The media will bill it as a clash between Con and Lab with the SNP being irrelevant and ‘wasted vote’.

The SNP IMO need to make any GE about the broken promises and deceit, the abuse of Scotland and the will of her people, the constitution, and Indy as a solution. We need to get the half million voters lost between 2015 and 2017 back out and voting SNP.

Luigi says:
One wee word of caution, folks:
—————
true, but the snpbad is relentless anyway. but this ge will be different, ruth will be trying to sell a no deal brexit, the fudge will have gone, we will know what brexit actually means, any pretence of a “good deal” will have gone.
that will be a hard sell for the tories in scotland. i believe we have reached peak ruth and the perfect storm which caused the loss of many of the snp seats in the last ge, wont be repeated
we simply continue to campaign for sm/cu for scotland (and the uk) and await the result.

bear in mind, there is no ge result or brexit outcome that will stop the launch of indyref2

You’re convincing no one that Sturgeon’s choice to display that crap on her twitter is completely excused by an obvious degree of separation between Sturgeon and Albright by means of the Guardian – as if I’m claiming Sturgeon is actually responsible for Albright’s actions/speech. Sturgeon is endorsing the message (be afraid, kids), and tacitly endorsing Albright as the messenger, not least because it is a message that Sturgeon repeats often. She’s endorsing the Guardian more strongly, of course.

She fucked up, and for some hilarious reason you can’t handle it.

Her twitter is a gigantic shitheap of virtue-signalling that melts any adult brain, anyway, so it’s not as if this is some sort of coup de grace.

The SNP must have over half of the MPs from Scotland to prevent Westminster having control of the Scottish Grand Committee. At least 30 at current levels.

That’s because should Westminster want to introduce Scotland only legislation rather than attempt subterfuge by hiding it in another bill it’s that committee that oversees it. In theory even that attempt would fail as the SNP and, hopefully, other MPs from Scotland would have a strong case that any clauses that affect Scotland only or devolved issues be submitted to it.

Lot’s of legislation is either amended by or simply doesn’t make it past committee stage.

Any Bill to completely abolish Holyrood would have to go through that committee.

Westminster should be desperate to avoid being seen as an untrustworthy negotiator unable to keep to an agreement.

Anyway, moving on from trolls and bridges as in under, I’ve had my fun for the day, it occurs to me that the absolute best thing the EU could do is get together, all 27 of them, and “In view of the crisis in the UK we are prepared to offer a 12 month extension to the Article 50 deadline, in the terms of Article 50 (and whatever it is) and await the response from any functioning UK Government”. Time limited to allow a Tory leadership election (3 moths) or another GE.

” … I don’t believe a second referendum on Brexit will show a different result in England so what would be the point of Scotland taking part in a vote unless that vote included a separate arrangement for each Nation according to how they vote … “

And that bit is the big problem with your argument, Dr Jim.
Now there is no doubt that most of what you say is correct the whole argument falls down because you have a simple fact wrong and the only way to get out of the whole mess is to correct the wrong assumption you have just made.

You are following the Westminster legally wrong mantras. While there are indeed four nations within the “United KINGDOM The United Kingdom is NOT legally a union of four nations.

It is legally exactly what its title describes it as a, (two partner), United KINGDOM. There is only one legal way out of that United KINGDOM. End the United Kingdom by one partner >b>KINGDOM,, The KINGDOM of Scotland, withdrawing from the United KINGDOM.

After we have ended the United KINGDOM.There will not remain an elected as such Parliament of the Kingdom of England and thus the Kingdom of England will be legally without an elected as such parliament.

There simply isn’t such an government and our Celtic Brethren in Wales & N.I. can, with our support and their own elected as such legislature, grasp the initiative and take control of their own legislation.

Unfortunately leaving the good people of England to force the now proven illegal, unelected, de facto parliament of the England, that illegally called itself the UK Parliament, into holding a general election to legitimise itself in the eyes of English law.

The fact is that Westminster has been operating illegally as an. unelected as such, de facto parliament of the Nation of England since becoming legally the Parliament of the United Kingdoms of Scotland and England.

Unfortunately, Dr Jim, as long as the non-English nations of the two Kingdom United Kingdom adhere to the Westminster mantras that the United Kingdom Parliament is really the Nation of England Parliament devolving English National Powers to the Nations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland then the bipartite United Kingdom is being run illegally as the Parliament of the Nation of England with three submissive dominions.

If you don’t excuse Nicola Sturgeon’s foolish choice to endorse the view of a woman – which, by the way, is straight out of the MSM’s risible ‘narrative’ on the fake populist rhetoric that tries so hard to prevent you from realising the new boss is the same as the old boss – who thought 500,000 dead Iraqi children was the ‘right choice’, then you sir, are a fascist.

Stop. Just, stop. Can’t you just pop on over to Wonderland and buy yourself an Airfix Warship or something? Let us know how you’re progressing.

The First Minister was recommending an interesting book to read, Mein Kampf is an interesting book to read, lots of books are interesting to read, I just recently finished Sung Tzu the Art of War and I haven’t killed anybody today, the Tories are interesting doesn’t mean I wanna be one

“Galamcennalth @0408pm “ , Mundell would be as well sitting on the HOC “ chamberpot” for his complete “ sell out” of Scotland over Brexit and the power-grab . If there is to be a General election then perhaps the SNP should approach it along the lines of “ as equal partners in the “ United” Kingdom , a majority of SNP MP’s elected should be on a mandate to have equal representation for our country at the Brexit negotiations and single market / customs union status for Scotland should be at a minimum notwithstanding the position of the other partner. The final outcomes and whether we stay in the U.K. ( with full single market and CU status) or opt for Independence outwith Europe or in the EU ,to be subject to final referenda on the terms etc. of the negotiated options. I feel that an approach along these lines or something similar to the electorate is required to crystallise our future as a nation. Something of this order is required to get our support out and enthused .This GE ( if it transpires ) is the crunch for our people . Also , I don’t believe for one minute that the recent chequers meeting did not discuss the best strategy for preserving “ the precious precious union” re Brexit and the power grab etc. Perhaps they have decided that a Corbyn government committed to remaining in CU/SM ticks that box??

The Scottish Grand Committee still exists to oversee any “Scotland Only” bills. One example would be any attempt to overturn the Holyrood Continuity Bill now that they’ve fucked up their timing so it comes into force after the Brexit Bill and thus supercedes it assuming the Supreme Court actually enforces the law.

It might also intervene in any “Scotland Only” legislation even where that’s part of a UK wide Bill.

I am just back from a week in Belgium…had ‘pleasure’ of meeting an elderly Scottish couple from Aberdeen…Tories….who said :

a) What does Scotland produce we never seem to do anything ?

b) We don’t sell much Whisky now ?

When I told them Scotland produces 70% of UK’s Gin she said
c) Did not know that but we probably get Juniper berries from England.

d) Both were Remain voters but said Brexit will be better for Scotland than independence….though were somewhat reticent to expand on how and why…hmmm.

Frankly this explains a lot re new spate of Scottish Tory MP’s….this couple were financially comfortable and NOT unintelligent but it did confirm to me that their political ignorance, like some other Scottish Tory voters, was self imposed to fit their political preferences…..made me realise that they need to misrepresent Scotland to justify their vote for the Tories…..strange and corrupt way to support a political party.

I am sure they would even have agreed with that fat fcuking leech Digby Jones on his cretinous and ever so obvious baiting tweet re England being paymaster to our FM , NHS and police force…..oh and they knew fcuk all about Tory dark money and did not want to either…..that’s the problem with members of a cult….no matter how shit or corrupt their cult leaders are the cult members will follow them even to their own doom…and that of their families….let’s be honest… if after all of the shit that has gone down with this Tory government you still want to vote Tory…you would have to concede that you were part of a cult and not part of a political movement….either that or you are a masochist , substance user or in need of a psychiatric assessment…..cause there is no other rational way to explain your choice of political party being the Tory party.

ps. if anyone challenges psychiatric assessment comment being inappropriate and crass….note my comment was sincerely meant as a factual observation and not a slight against those who have any psychiatric condition…I speak as one who suffers from debilitating bouts of depression.

Seriously, does ANYBODY still think we are better together?? All those folk who voted to stay run by England via the English Parliament in Westminster, do they really think Scotland could not make a better job of running our own affairs.

`This is just a freaking joke. The whole damn thing. If we don’t get a referendum on independence soon, I think my head will explode.

Just watched a Dutch MEP, the deputy of Guy Verhofstadt, talking about Theresa the failed Prime Minister’s plan for brexit. She basically said, we will not break up the single marktet, and the four pillars of the EU will apply, including freedom of movement.

In other words, theresa’s plan is already redundant.

What a joke Westminster and the Tories have become. What a joke England has become. Time for independence – we really need rid of these clowns in Westminster

“Neo-liberal politics and alignment with the economics that go with that, deference to the IMF and World Bank that have seen the likes of Greece have to sell off public infrastructure for private gain.”

That’s a right load of guff, tartanfever, and you probably know it is.

Greece itself got itself into financial difficulty and they knew it. They were well warned and had more than enough chances offered to them before they faced the truth. As Greece had the same veto as every other EU state they obviously had signed up to the conditions of entry. Furthermore, note they did not readopt their own currency – ask yourself why?

“Support for far right wing groups in Ukraine and the, in terms of the Ukraine constitution, illegal coup that took place. The undemocratic appointment of politicians, especially in Italy, against the express will of the people in deference to EU economic policy, and of course the responses to events in Catalonia.”

Oh! Spare us the guff! The EU has no way to enforce anything upon member states as it doesn’t enforce EU laws, it passes on directives to member states and these directives can be, and are, ignored by member states.

Which is why some founder Member states still have not adopted the Euro that the UK, for example, attempted to say an independent Scotland in the EU would be forced to adopt while the UK itself never has. The UK on the other hand forces laws upon their ONLY kingdom Partner in the UK and upon their fellow Kingdom of England satellite countries in the Kingdom of England. You are spouting Westminster propaganda, tartanfever and I think you probably know it.

“These are just a few for an example, otherwise I would be writing pages of stuff.”

Aye! Like the bullshit that Westminster and their propaganda wing does all the time.

” … So my question to you is, bearing in mind the examples I’ve outlined, why would you be so keen to jump into bed with an organisation that operates and encourages such behaviour?

I believe I just did so.

” … Again, I would point out that I would have much the same view for a future relationship with the USA.”

There simply is no comparison between the two as one is a a nation state and the other a democracy run on consensus and with even the smallest member state holding the EU presidency on a Buggin’s Turn basis and with each member state holding a veto.

Each point you have attempted to make has been both untrue and a mantra preached by such as the UK and the USA. You are simply misrepresenting the EU in the exact same terms as does the Westminster Propaganda wing.

Are you really, for example, attempting to claim the EU has passed laws that sanctioned Greece? If so can you quote your sources of that EU law?

Are you really attempting to misrepresent the EU stance on the Catalonian situation?

The EU, as it must do in relation to the Member States, (the UK for example), cannot, (openly), interfere in a member state’s internal affairs.

Seems you have not noticed the more recent events in European capitals in relation to the Catalonian self imposed Exiles and the Spanish Government, and the certain changes that have come about in regard to Spanish Government elected members.

The EU cannot, as a union, get involved in member states internal business but the member states most certainly can, and do.

I’ve forgotten most of the science that proves it but the Tory mind is wired differently to the rest of humanity. And doesn’t it show. 😉

Introduction: Theoretical Foundations of Political Psychology

Abstract and Keywords

Political psychology applies what is known about human psychology to the study of political behavior, focusing on individuals within a specific political system. Topics such as terrorism, public support for fascism, and ethnocentrism are commonly studied within political psychology to gain better traction on the perennial question of how well citizens are equipped to handle their democratic responsibilities. The chapter provides a broad overview of the field of political psychology and introduces the topics covered in the Oxford Handbook of Political Psychology. The authors discuss the underpinnings of political behavior in broad psychological approaches such as biopolitics; personality, cognitive, and affective psychology; and intergroup relations to underscore ways in which political behavior deviates from the predictions of rational choice theory. In sum, the authors conclude that psychology provides unique and valuable insight into the dynamics of elite decision-making and mass politics.

A sensible person will engage with, and so assess their neighbours, by acquaintance. The trashing of the Ikea store suggests to me that a hard Brexit, , leaving the protection of the EU with “taking back control”, will consolidate the political supremacy of England, by right of population, being put into practise, and the losers will be trashed, like the Ikea store. The losers meaning Scotland in particular.

The development of London using the income from North Sea oil and gas is a taster of what is to come should Scotland decline independence. Call it the allocation of scarce resources by a dominant force.England will look after England, and the wealthy will protect their wealth as a lion protects its slain prey.The changes proposed by the EU by 2019 to bring transparency to financial transactions – read offshore accounts – makes exitting the EU an imperative for the wealthy.

Crikey. Went to sleep last night, woke up, David Davis has resigned. Went for a walk today, came back, Boris Johnston has resigned. Come to think of it, it’s been half an hour since I checked the BBC website.

Robert Louis
In other words, theresa’s plan is already redundant.
———–
we knew that already, davis already said the same thing.

thing is, treeeza was only ever a care taker to get the government to the final negotiations on the 20th of july. the plan was always for her to resign at the point that the actual brexit deal was know.

to that end, i cant see anyone wanting to challenge her until then. poison chalice etc.

the only deal on the table means ni staying in the sm/cu which will not be acceptable to any tory, the new leader will take the no deal line and call a ge.

” … I once heard the US described as the richest third world country. True enough because although it overflows with wealth, it has third world style poverty, inequality, healthcare, benefits, and social services. Great if you are one of the top 20%, absolute shite if you in the bottom fifth. Shite far worse than shite here.

I came across many such videos on the internet and many showing much, much worse than this example. Why I was researching Skid Row USA was because I had recently started to reply the, (originated in Scotland by a Scottish Company) series of computer games “Grand Theft Auto”, now about to extend to GTA VI and with several offshoots to I;II;III;IV and V.

I really could not believe that the scenes in the GTA V game were authentic representations of life in Down Town Los Angeles.

Sadly they are all too true and in fact are not so bad as the reality of Skid Row itself in Los Angeles and horrifying to consider that all USA cities have their very own Skid Rows.

Here are a couple of other examples chosen from YouTube at random and an example from Wiki:-

In fact I could recognise some of the Computer locations as real bits of the Los Angeles cityscape.

BTW: Many clips of the real USA Skid Rows show, that, beyond all doubt, many of the inhabitants in the squalor are not just drunks and junkies but hard working genuine old, sick disabled and just simply down on their luck normal people.

Have a look, Wingers, and see what Westminster wants us to become.

Sadly Grand Theft Auto is all too true and is where Westminster wants us to be like.

I am halfway thru an enthralling box-set and also Irvine Welsh’s latest – but the real world is FAR more interesting right now

inglund with a 1/4 chance of winning the world cup
federer and nadal back at wimbledon
tories knifing each other like theres no tomorrow
trump-man coming to town
brexit proving to be the shambles we all hoped it would be
fake-women attacking real-women-who-hate-real-men for saying they are fake-women
lesbos getting kicked OUT of the pride march thingy
novichok, take 2, doubling down
nigel farage fondled a shark and it was a “bad-touch”
daily mail comments section now most toxic environment on earth

– there is no time to process it all AND keep up with Wings above and BTL, never mind make intelligent comment.

I love this. It is GREAT for us.

I hope Nicola is in her bunker, stroking a big white cat and waiting for the moment of MAXIMAL CHAOSITY to pull the eject handle marked indyref2.

“If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”

? Sun Tzu

Here’s a little bonus – ever wonder why small numbers of TWATS can end up dominating things.

I thought It was BECAUSE they were in the EU and had the €Euro that they didn’t have the option to allow depreciation of currency to focus on attracting investment, to pay back debt more easily, when the investment that had been flowing freely and falsely buoying their economy BECAUSE they were seen as sound within the EU before the crash, suddenly dried up.

Because much of the problem stemmed from Greece’s labour market not being cheap enough in comparison to the likes of Germany – which wasn’t all their fault, but was compounded by ignorance of the issue – it meant that they had to introduce the draconian (pun intended) wage cuts which really sent them down. And all the while, the ECB and IMF were circling hungrily, ready to loan with one eye on privitisation, and another on the interest. I believe the ECB has made €8 billion so far from Greek holdings.

The core focus of “Political Psychology: Critical Perspectives” is an interrelated set of European-based theories and perspectives that emphasize both the social context of the individual and the capacity of citizens to engage in strategic discursive and rhetorical agency. Through an explanation of social representations, social identity, self-categorization and other theories, Tileag? raises questions about mainstream methodologies in political psychology and offers alternatives. The core achievements of the book consist of the integrated presentation of a range of critical European-based political psychology approaches as well as a subtle exploration of the interplay between the individual and the social.

If Tony Blair was the son of Thatcher, then TM must be the daughter of Gordon Brown. Every time she tries to be clever, she ends up making things 100 times worse for herself. Such raw, self-destructive talent is rare. 🙂

TM … Every time she tries to be clever, she ends up making things 100 times worse for herself.

I’ve never actually been able to make my mind up about TMay – villain, incompetent fool, or heroine.

She’s Tory, which immediately qualifies her for the villain label.

As Home Secretary she seemed far from competent, she called an unnecessary election and almost lost it, and her handling of Brexit is a total shit show. She chose the job of PM which, given the state of her party and Brexit might itself show folly.

However, is the woman an unsung heroine of UKOKness and Torydom? She took on board a totally impossible job which couldn’t end well. No one else wanted the job, she stepped in. There will be no credit in the history books for overseeing Brexit. She must have known that the breakup of the UK is a probable outcome and who would want to go into the annals as the PM who destroyed their glorious UKOK? Worse, she might be the PM who causes the demise of her own party.

All this she must have known, and yet she took the job. Why? Total idiot or heroine of BritNattery First Class willing to sacrifice her career and legacy.

One of the favourite anti-EU slanders of the ultra-leftoids is the “scandal of Greece”, which inevitably leaves out the inconvenient fact that a significant majority of Greeks themselves don’t want to leave either the EU or the Euro. (Which are incidentally not exactly the same thing.) Which rather undermines the whole case.

Greece had serious problems of widespread corruption, political patronage and large-scale tax-avoidance long before it joined the nascent Euro. Sooner or later the bill for all this financial jiggery-pokery was going to be presented, whatever. People evidently thought that being part of a strong currency was going to be their “get-out-of-debtors-prison card” without any change in behaviour necessary. Fat chance.

Trashing your own currency – as leftist governments the world over are notorious for doing, with universally predictable results – doesn’t solve any of those endemic problems. If anything, it just makes them worse.

But as someone wisely said upthread, such evidentiary-bereft notions are part of a cultish belief system, whether its Scottish Tories desperate to believe their own country is shit, or anti-EU idealogues thinking the EU is as oppressive to Scotland as the UK is.

I guess there’s always a proportion of people who are just plain deluded and unreedemable. (How typically Calvinist of me. =grin=)

” … It is not out of the question for this scenario to become a reality.”

When will you learn, Thepnr, that, when it comes to Britnationalism, the whole of the Westminster based parties will always stand shoulder to shoulder as The Westminster Establishment.

In my schooldays every one of my close friends were members of large families, in two cases these were both in double digit figures, and in every case the members of these big families were always fighting among themselves like the proverbial futrits, (ferrets), ben a poke.

Yet let any outsider pick a fight, or even just an argument, with any family member and they took on the entire family.

I kid you not, in one such large family the father was a Merchant Seaman but, (based in Leith), he wasn’t often really away for overlong periods. One day he asked me if I was the son between the 8 year old son and the 10 year old daughter or between the 10 & 12 year old daughters.

Poor guy had lost rack and count of the brood.

In another case of big families, (after I was adult and a union rep). I had the unpleasant duty of attending the funerals of dead members. I was sitting with the widow of a large family on one occasion. I knew the whole family very well.

The Good Lady was confiding in me and reminiscing about the dear departed and it went like this:-

On the BBC website, Ruth is now telling us she is behind Theresa May. How did anybody manage to track her down and ask her? She goes into hiding when anything happens which paints the Scottish Tories in a bad light, like the recent “Dark Money” scandal, but can always be found when she can give herself a punt. As is usual on BBC Scotland’s website, comments are not allowed on this article. Ruth getting an easy ride again from her old workmates.

I still think too many people here are misreading this situation. BoJo and Davis have quit because they can see that May is heading for a SM/CU type solution – without allowing it to be called anything so obvious, of course.

The main question now is whether May has enough support within the Tory party to continue. The Brexit idealogues are running out of road, though, and a sufficient number of MPs may be worried enough about the effect of a hard Brexit to follow Gove’s example. (Oily Man is evidently staying on board to be first in line as successor, if the knife is wielded.)

Then there is the EU27. Can’t see them agreeing to the current bodge job. But I have the feeling May is edging ever so slowly but deliberately towards something they can agree with, and by doing it at a snail’s pace will manage to keep the Tory show on the road. Corbyn won’t oppose either.

It all depends now, I think, on whether the Tory MPs indulge themselves in a collective spasm of mutual fear and loathing, or whether they hand together rather than hang apart (as Ben Franklin put it).

But if the knives come out, a UKGE will follow sooner than later. I’m not afraid. I don’t believe that an SNP that comes out fighting for full indy and escape from this ongoing UK boorach will lose seats in a squeeze. Au contraire.

” … It is not out of the question for this scenario to become a reality.”

“When will you learn, Thepnr, that, when it comes to Britnationalism, the whole of the Westminster based parties will always stand shoulder to shoulder as The Westminster Establishment.”

Here’s what I said Robert

May must go then a General Election. Hung parliament with the SNP holding the balance of power. That would be a bozo and know what?

It is not out of the question for this scenario to become a reality.

Now you tell me, what exactly does your reply to me have to do with anything I wrote other than the picking of a sentence at random?

You don’t need to pick a sentence from someone else’s comment in order to make your own comment. Just do what everybody else does and say what you have to without including them. Especially when what you have to say has absolutely nothing to do with what those others have written.

@Hackalumpoff
Two pieces of anti-Catholic writing in the ‘top end’ English press today. One in the Guardian the other in the Times. Both penned by ‘ex Catholics’ of Irish descent. What is it about the ‘Irish’ and religion? Is it something in the British water supply?
An Orange parade passing a Catholic church when people were leaving after Mass smacks of ‘perfect timing’ by somebody.
Unionists may need to be reminded that religious bigotry and discrimination rather goes with the historic brand.
Nicola Sturgeon has condemned the Saturday evening incident. What about Ruth Davidson?

Andy MacNicol tonights mis-reporting Scotland read out a statement (expressing her support for Mrs May) they had received from Ruth Davidson “who is on holiday”. I tried to look at it again on iplayer in order to quote exactly what they said but it seems to be unavailable!

About time the BBC launched a programme looking at that rarest of species, to be called ruthdavidsonwatch. An elusive creature that can disappear for an age when the terrain is dangerous, only to appear when the conditions seem to be advantageous. These appearances have been captured by the BBC but as yet they have failed to delve deeper into the hibernation routine.

This is what happens when you have men in government who’ve been raised from birth to believe it’s someone else’s job to clean up after them. They throw tantrums when they finally make a mess no-one can fix.

Surely UK is in the heady position of the spouse who is about to leave, remember JK?

BBC Scotland website – Davidson backs May – but usual in your face BBC Scotland bias, HYS comments not allowed. Only when Sturgeon or SNP speaks are HYS comments permitted which are usually overwhelmed by those down south.

After Ruth Davidson hiding from the darkmoney story for what seems an age the BBC give her the lead appearing to be supportive and strong. Apparently she seems to be the only Scottish leader allowed to comment on the shambolic government in Westminster.

No doorstepping for her, strange when the BBC are often parked outside Corbyn’s residence, even though he is also an opposition leader in another parliament.

God bless the BBC, stout defenders of the Union. I’m half expecting to find a No Surrender poster in the newsroom if I ever visit the PQ.

BBC Scotland were sorely tempted to pull tonight’s SNHS Bad story because of breaking events that were felt to be more important.

Apparently one of their undercover reporters has discovered an alternative tablet recipe has been found within the First Ministers office. Its strength has not been confirmed but sources believe this recipe may be of Russian origin.

This backs up previous reports from the Heralds top political correspondent and quashes the ‘there’s a squirrel story’ narrative.

If anyone would like to participate in some schadenfreude then check out Tory MP Ross Thomsons facebook / twatter 🙂

His constituency voted 62% remain (Aberdeen South). He just came out in favor of Hard Brext and Boris / Davies. The constituents are not amused 🙂 Now – these people might not switch their vote to SNP. But it sure sounds like they won’t be re-electing this turnip again…

Love the way your poll question pre-empts the total fucktitude of the great-British cabinet. Why the great-British media never saw this coming provides endless amusement; had of course, this was not of such a serious nature. Where oh where is the Grand-fuckwit-general that will lead us through this great-fucked-it-up conundrum? Boris? Davis? Hell no! Why would they want history to remember them as the great-wisemen-of-fuckituppery… perhaps they await a victorious penalty shoot-out against Croatia to spurr them on? Mail on Thursday?

Next up more resignations, Johnson, Fox and Leadsom probably the weasel Gove will cling on with his teeth and Rees-Mogg will be busy gathering 48 letters to send to the 1922 committee demanding a leadership challenge.

————————————————————
Resignation. On 14 October 2011 Fox resigned from his office as Secretary of State for Defence, for breaking the ministerial code by letting Adam Werritty into defence meetings.
———————————————————–

Yes the “cult followers” are a hard nut to crack. Best not to do a head-on volley of facts, because they just deny and deflect on those.

Better to rattle their cage and leave them something to mull over:

“I’m not a political person, but that shower in London are completely incompetent. Taken two years to even work out what they want for Brexit, and still arguing with each other.”

“I’m not a political person, I just like to keep politicians within kicking distance. That useless lot in London are unkickable from here.”

“I’m not a political person, but it seems independence is inevitable now. Too many differences that can’t be bridged. It’s a pity, in a way, but you have to be a realist. It’ll make things easier just to go our separate ways…”

“I used to be no, but everybody I know has changed their mind because of Brexit. Let the English go if they want, but they should stop telling us what to do and leave us to make up our own minds…”

I’m sure others can think of suitable alternatives to engage their fear factor, and the better the nub of truth in it, the more it will gnaw at them afterwards. Plus engage the herd instinct by getting them to realise that unless they re-evaluate, they could end up on the wrong side of history.

My read is that this is a bad day for indyref2. From May’s perspective, two arch Brexiters out of government, the 1922 committee not looking to dispose her, sturgeon broadly supportive of the Chequers podition and brexit not really happening.

It’s just under a year before Brexit really starts and the current UK government is on the brink of implosion. It doesn’t look good.

If Brexit does happens, it looks like the UK is going to be thrown out of the EU and will have to rejoin as a new member to enjoy it’s benefits. Isn’t that one of the threats of what would occur if Scottish indy occurred?

Do you agree that that brexit farce will hinder a future yes campaign, as it gives a clear example of how hard constitutional change is, and how weak nationalist promises are when confronted with the real world?

It would only be a bad day for indyref2 should the UK sign a new treaty with the EU. Thanks to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the UK has now retained into British law, all EU law. Scotland could be next in retaining EU law, with its own EU Continuity Bill, into Scottish law. Under Article 50, the UK is leaving all of its EU treaties in March 2019. It very neatly sets the stage for the dissolution of the UK since it makes more sense for the EU to sign its new treaties with the two successor states.

Gfaetheblock
I can appreciate there are many reasons why folk who aren’t already committed to self-determination, might look at a future iScotland as being a scary prospect. Personally, I think the very real event of having my legal identity forcibly altered against my express wishes (Brexit), followed by the prospect of the incremental dismantling of the devolution settlement, rather more alarming. I suppose it all depends on how chill you are with authoritarian totalitarianism, I suppose.

My comment at 7.07pm was directed at Bill Hume (hence the willy), not you. I took your comment to be a gentle mockery of me, and smiled, for my opinion of you is quite high. I did worry, however, that you would think I called you willy.

It was a uk vote, we (pro EU) lost. Upsetting, but that is how democracy works. That is not the point I am making. The fact that the delivery of this has been a farce means that it is easy to argue that Scottish independence could be a similar cluster fuck.

Do you know what authorisation totalitarianism means as they are different things, all I see is an incompetent Tory government struggling to deliver it’s mandate, more Wodehouse farce than either of these?

Gfaetheblock
Brexit apparently defines what it mean to be British (i.e. an English person opposed to immigration and wishing to ‘take back control’). That’s the totalitarianism. As Scotland’s is being dragged out of the EU against it’s expressed desire (62% of Scots voted to stay), that’s where the authoritarianism comes into play. Would you accept that?

Gfaetheblock says:
9 July, 2018 at 11:01 pm
Robert J. Sutherland @ 22.43
“not clear if you mean EU or UK.
Do you agree that that brexit farce will hinder a future yes campaign, as it gives a clear example of how hard constitutional change is, and how weak nationalist promises are when confronted with the real world?”

Even if the incompetent Tory regime could agree an EU negotiating position among themselves. I’d still choose Scotland being a NORMAL, self governing country over being England’s colony.
How about you? Country or colony?

Reluctant Nationalist
Being British means lots of different things to those who feel British. Not all those living in Britain feel British. Brexit defines being British in a very narrow and closed manner, that’s the totalitarian aspect of contemporary British politics.

Do you not think it authoritarian for one nation to force another nation to change it’s identity?

“Hi Robert Peffers…ma comment was directed to Robert Sutherland…my bad..shoulda woulda coulda made that clearer.”

Well No! This, being an open forum, means when you post to one you post to all. Although there are a kind of conversation between individual commenters they are not private conversation so anything anyone thinks they can contribute to they will.

It’s a great way to not only understand other people’s thoughts and ideas but often to clarify our own.

It’s so refreshing to be reminded once again – as if it were ever needed – by the usual resident BritNat apologists that I’m trapped by a system contrived to make me permanently robbed of any real say, in a complete travesty of democracy.

Not least by arrogant people who blithely assume that somehow, despite all their own professed high-minded principles, that’s just how it has to be. All because it suits these minority fake democrats.

Well, like my forebears, I am happy to declare that you can take your pretensions, your offensive fix and your hypocritical “principles” and stuff the lot.

More and more and more people are sussing your rotten self-serving job-creation scheme, and they are going to hasten the likes of you out the door.

This change is coming, and you will assuredly lose. As in your shrivelled hearts you already know.

” … If Brexit does happens, it looks like the UK is going to be thrown out of the EU and will have to rejoin as a new member”

Laughably, Pacman, the process of exiting was initiated when May put in her formal letter informing the EU that the United Kingdom was leaving the EU. This is the only way to exit the EU – by formally informing the EU that you are leaving.

However, The Westminster Government did not just inform the EU it was leaving it attempted to lay down conditions that the EU would not, and cannot allow so the EU then informed the Westminster Government that it could not do deals regarding the four basic freedoms that were what the EU is all about

The UK would not accept that and has since been trying to agree among itself just what the deal is it wants the EU to agree to while the EU has continued to tell the UK Parliament they could not pick & choose which of the EU four freedoms they wanted and which they did not want.

These the UK Government comically calls Hard and Soft BREXIT. I say comically because in the first place Britain is a geographic description and Westminster does not govern it all – thus Britain will not be exiting.

Also comic is the UK Government in-fighting among itself over what to wants to give up and what to wants to keep after being told on an almost daily bases that they can accept all freedoms or reject all freedoms but not Cherry Pick Freedoms and there is a deadline for them to make up their minds – which if it passes means they have lost the chance to choose the lot or reject the lot.

In any case if they accept the lot there is absolutely no point in leaving anyway so the reality they cannot accept means they leave with none of the Four Freedoms and a massive task of attempting to negotiate trade deals with the other nations of the World not already with Trade deals with the EU and the EU is far and away the largest Trading block in the World.

So just who are they going to negotiate trade deals with? The answer id the WTO, (World Trade Organisation), basically the USA Dominated next largest trading block that more or less does what it is told to do by the USA.

What free nation in the World that isn’t already in a trade agreement with either of the big two would prefer to agree a trade deal with the UK rather than one of the big two?

So there you go – in 2013 the United Kingdom was telling Scotland it would be thrown out of the EU and that would mean Scots would starve to death without the United Kingdom, (as if a United Kingdom would still exist when one of only two of the kingdoms left), but now the United Kingdom wants to force Scotland out of the EU but now claims the Kingdom of England, that also claims it subsidises Scotland, will be better off out of the EU.

There are saner folk incarcerated as dangers to themselves & the public at the State Hospital and Penitentiary at Carstairs.

Ah beg to differ RN…you can chide and berate all you want on all matters related to your disagreement with others based on your ideological bent, on here, it is indeed an open forum. But the reality is you don’t support our Independence. Unless it would match ‘your’ particular political outlook and beliefs.

Fair enough. You’d have accrued more credibility on here if you’d presented your self as…shall we opt for…‘intellectually honest’, from the start? As it is you went for snidey back handed wi a hint of ‘I’ve a huge problem with immigration chip on ma shoulder’, peppered with gentle at first ‘camaraderie’.

Well your recent out pourings have been decidedly unambiguous…decided ye hud tae dae some straight talking…och let’s be direct here…lecturing down to others, did ye aye?

So from ma pov…it is necessary to just call it what it is. You don’t support the proposition…in principle…it’s why you call yersel ‘reluctant nationalist’ in the first place.

Don’t vote Yes if you like. Nobody’s stopping you or making you ‘reluctant’ to vote for Scotland’s independence. And if it’s the ‘kindred spirit’ Labour Party bit ye didnae like…if the hat fits…

I had a feeling that you wouldn’t leave it at a mere little-dictator announcement that I was to be labelled un-real, and you’d have to eventually let loose a full-on bitchcunt character assassination, as that’s your thing; but really, I think you’ve been too fair on me. It’s always impressive to see you do what you do best, though. Sorry I insulted your special gentle friend, Bill.

In Scotland’s so called national newspaper The Hootsman this morning five pages are devoted to Tory cabinet meltdown but only 200 words from SNP our largest party yet three times as much from Ruth Davidson.

That would be the deal that EU were going to throw back in their faces regardless. Mainly because said deal still breached essential areas of the four freedoms at the heart of the EU’s stated principles of membership.

So why resign when your going to get what you claim you want?

Well either….. they believe there is yet further concessions set to be made by May on the issue of Brexit (uh huh!), or a hard Brexit it is and they’re both hoping to dodge the ensuing shit storm when it all goes biblically south on the UK.

Bear in mind. THERE IS NO GOOD BREXIT, only degrees of calamitous harm and this according to UK gov’s own impact assessments.

Britain can’t afford Brexit. The Tories want a GE they will lose. To get them out of their mess. Chaos. Labour and LibDems etc are useless liars. They all conspired to create the mess. What a muck up. The illegal wars which cause the migration which caused the Brexit. Losing £Billions. Creating £Trns of debt. Ruining the world economy. The EU countries have to try and sort out the mess.

The Westminster unionists costing Scotland £Billions. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The Brexit mess. Ruining the Oil & Gas sector, fishing and farming etc. For years. Since 1928 and before. The Westminster blantant liars. Keeping their criminality secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Lockerbie and Dunblane kept secret for 100 years.

Well either….. they believe there is yet further concessions set to be made by May on the issue of Brexit (uh huh!), or a hard Brexit it is and they’re both hoping to dodge the ensuing shit storm when it all goes biblically south on the UK.
———————

the reason they resigned and have not mounted a challenge is because no one (NO ONE) wants to go to brussels next week for the final negotiations.

why? because there is a mechanism for frictionless trade, its called the sm/cu, both of which have been ruled out.

so that is the deal, the only deal, the uk leaves the sm/cu, gets a 2 year transitional deal to cushion the impact and NI stays in the sm/cu.

the idea that the eu will make concessions is 100% cakeism. they wont

this is the only deal on offer. and it will be treezas job to pick it up next week, come back to heathrow waving it as she ssteps of the plane, crying, “peace in our time” NOT

if that i the deal she comes back with next week, and she will, then she will have no choice but to resign.

none of those who resigned yesterday proposed a 3rd way, an alternative white paper etc, cos there isnt one and no tory will accept an eu deal which abandons NI. they are merely distancing themselves from treeza who, when she resigns next week, will leave the door wide open for a hard brexiter, no deal proponent to become leader and PM.

It might be me misunderstuuding things but am sure ah heard a tv report saying Mrs May Had some balls in ah can or thats she’s going to the Balkans to address some EU leaders. The Tories must hiv found a Brian Rix old script on the EU , its a total farce lol.

It’ll be along those lines fer sure. What it won’t be (in any shape or form) is good for the peoples on these islands.

Next few months is going to be like watching a game of pass the parcel, only with a bear trap and an angry bear attached.

Oh, and for folk not paying attention? Old uncle Jeremy’s Brexit plan of ‘being in without being in’ is no different and would have met with EXACTLY the same response and fate. His Brexit would still have been Brexit and would still carry exactly the same repercussions. (only probably with a sad face emoji attached)

Tories have just two options an EEA deal or No deal and I think everybody knows that. Why would Rees-Mogg not understand this too?

There is no need for his 60 strong rapid Brexiteer “European Research Group” to make any move to oust May just yet as it won’t help his case in support of a No-deal if his party is defeated in a General Election.

So only if May gives more concessions and moves closer to an EEA deal might he try to topple her. Alternatively if she moves closer to a No-deal then if anyone is going to get rid of her from within the Tory party it will have to be the her own Remainers in the party.

They will know that No-deal would have massive consequences and not just economic but in holding together the Union which would surely disintegrate under a No-deal future.

We’re at the end game or close too it, bums will be getting very nippy from here on in.

“Even if the likes of Davis and Johnson were to deviate from type and actually resign, their means of stopping a softer Brexit would still be limited, if existent at all. Regardless of the composition of cabinet, the fundamental problem would remain: Robbins, not ministers, is running the show, and he is no longer listening to them.”

In short, the USA is basically saying its magnificent Trade Deal with the UK depends on the UK’s unilateral deregulation and divergence away from EU standards and regulation.

May’s Chequers position over Brexit is a scam. She promises concessions from the EU which she knows full well the EU will never concede, and she promises concessions to the EU which she knows full well the US would never endorse.

The EU and the US are playing “piggy in the middle” with the UK.

The Tories are divided because half of them actually want the Dickensian liberties of American style deregulation, while the other half recognise an American Trade Deal will be a poor, shabby, and grossly inferior alternative to a European Trade Deal.

Every fibre of my existence is screaming at me that Scotland should stick with Europe. The US has nothing to offer us, and the UK is a millstone around our necks. In Europe, we have a guaranteed place on the team.

Scotland’s relationship with Europe won’t be Utopian, but it will be symbiotic. Both sides benefit each other.

Scotland’s relationship with the proposed UK/ US model will be a dystopian, and not symbiotic but parasitic instead.

I would class them more as English Nationalists, since what they desire is Scotland remains a vassal state of England. Scotland’s MP’s excluded from decisions about England, but MP’s from England able to overturn legislation in Scotland at their whim.

There can be separate relationships with EU or US or anyone else. The two are not mutually compatible. Obviously. It is not either or. It can be different and separate. US 320Million. EU 400million. The world 7Billion. The effect of US/UK France foreign upolicies decision in the world, Destroying the world economy.

i am glad that the negotiations are coming to an end and that we will finally know what brexit means

the notion that we would get a “good deal” from the eu is what conned people to vote leave in the 1st place, so good that both treeza and corbyn used it in the last GE. but everyone is about to get a serious injection of reality.

the only deal on offer is a deal no tory can except, nor will any tory MP vote for someone who backs it. Ruth Davidsons career just ended. It will be one of the hard brexiteers who will be the next PM elected by the tory mps on a No deal ticket.

these people would quite happily boil the scots down for glue to win a few votes in england and have no qualms about saying so in public. good. i’m looking forward to the unionists in scotland trying to polish that turn in a ge, but it is a manifesto commitment which will ensure the tories win in england and that is all that matters to bojo, jrm and co.

the ge will also shoot the libdems fox of an euref2 since the tories will rightly argue that the people are getting a vote on the final deal. it will be the “deal or no deal” election

what corbyn does is anyones guess but without cake and any long grass to hide his real intent, he will be forced to either support no deal or the eu proposals, both will stick in labour and remainers craws.

as for us. we should contiinue to support the snp policy of remaining in the sm/cu since this is by far the most popular option for voters in scotland. we frame it as the unions last chance simply because there is no result possible that i can see to stop the launch of the indyref2 campaign immediately after this ge.

the prospect of a “no deal” tory victory, with no real labour alternative will focus the minds of voters in scotland like never before. no more fudge or cake. and when the tories win, that will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I am RELUCTANT to say this,”wink,wink,nudge,nudge,know wot I mean? Eh,eh” Enough already,if it talks like a British Nationalist,smells like a British Nationalist,divides and rules like a British Nationalist well it aint a bloody duck so why does he not quack orf?

There are squirrels aplenty but as the Britnats disintegrate I will support Scottish Independence and will never be fooled again.

The media have over cooked the propaganda and even the clown in the pub had a laugh at the way they molly coddle and cuddle Ruth Davidson’s codswallop.

“Old uncle Jeremy’s Brexit plan of ‘being in without being in’ is no different and would have met with EXACTLY the same response and fate.”

Just so, Macart. It’s amazing so many young people in England somehow convinced themselves groovy Glastonbury Ooooooooh Jeremy Corbyn was somehow going to represent the 48% and fight Brexit. Admittedly, the Young Ones were attracted initially by his “pledge” on student fees which he almost immediately repudiated, like Clegg. At a recent public meeting, Mike Russell described JC’s position on the EU as being essentially “Bennite”. Jeremy still wants to nationalise everything and build tractor factories everywhere to build his socialist Jerusalem.

What I don’t understand is why the many pro-EU Blairites aren’t saying anything about the impending calamity of a no-deal Brexit. I suppose their attitude is “keep the heads down and pray we don’t win the next GE.”

no they dont, treeza has already said no sm or cu, as such, eea isnt an option, indeed, the eu are not even considering eea because treeza already took it off the table.

but we are near the end game and there are some very twitchy bottoms, no question but in the next few weeks the brexit reality will focus minds and i expect to see a trickle of high profile nos switch to yes, and when the no deal tories win, this trickle could become a deluge. we need to be ready to welcome them with open arms.
————
@macart
What it won’t be (in any shape or form) is good for the peoples on these islands.
—————-
this union has been bad for scotland for 307 years, so no change there
—————-

Next few months is going to be like watching a game of pass the parcel, only with a bear trap and an angry bear attached.

Oh, and for folk not paying attention? Old uncle Jeremy’s Brexit plan of ‘being in without being in’ is no different and would have met with EXACTLY the same response and fate.
——————-

this is true, but the tories are about to wrong foot corbyn, he will have no where to go. neither of the choices open to him will be welcomed by slab.

I would refer to an article by lesley riddoch who pointed out that many unionists are moving to yes out of dispair, we should be more hard headed, less triumphalist (until after the yes vote 🙂 ) ditch the terms yoon and britnat and be more pragmatic and welcoming.
we also need their votes to win folks

The pro EU Blairites are ‘win at ANY cost’ by mentality. They detest JC, but so long as there’s a chance he could provide a platform they’ll bide their time and play a long game. Turning your back on them is probably a bad thing, but I’m sure Jazza knows this. Right now I’d guess they’ll abstain on everything and follow the populist trend till they reckon they can get their licks in.

@schrodingers cat

It’s the only way we can win any upcoming ballot. A no has to become a yes. They need hope and a welcome. They need to know that we can provide both.

Yesterday is history and yes there are those who will never change, but there’s a lot more can and need to be encouraged to do so. 🙂

dr Jim , I hope you told them it is the lowest in Europe and likely to suffer a greater drop ? How about no bus pass ? No free elderly care? No free parking at hospitals? grandchildren having to pay huge amounts for their FE ? How about no personal care when they are in need unless they sell their houses, give away their meagre savings to pay for it?

I thought Scots had a bit of intelligence, sometimes I wonder where their grey matter went.

My unfavourite has to be the inane , ‘I can’t stand that Salmond / Sturgeon ‘ when asked if they love May, Johnson , Davidson , Corbyn, Rennie or any other they seem stumped for an answer and give the media led response of ‘Ach! their all the same” then ask them why they vote for anybody and watch their heads explode.

My point was that there are Tories within the party that absolutely do not want a No-deal
—————–
true, but there are no tories who will support a tariff barrier in the irish sea. there are also no tories who will back FMOP.

so there cant and wont be eea membership on offer. treezas white paper was supposed to be a 3rd way, a means of getting round these issues, except it isnt, even davis acknowledged that the eu would reject it.

How long have you had that bad back for and why haven’t you come to see me before

It’s like the patient with the badly broken leg who’s had to have a plate put in with screws that are turned tighter each week, the patient becomes so used to the little pain for a long time on a regular basis they begin to rely on the doctor administering that pain and forget the time they were pain free so can’t envisage a time when they will be pain free again

It’s so predictable that you would resort to gendered insults rather than just acknowledge the accuracy of your own character in my comment, in a straight forward way. When you thought I was a guy…would you have responded with quite the same venom…doubt it.

I’ve never been bitchy in ma life rn, interesting you assume I’m coming from that mentality. As for being a cunt…well, again very specific insult from some men when a woman points out some fairly obvious to anyone paying attention, character traits he’s displaying. It’s not rocket science, is it…to aim for the vulnerable soft cunt of a woman when you’ve got no ground left on the salient issue she raised?

But thanks for acknowledging albeit in that snidey manner I’d outlined, that you are indeed not persuaded by the proposition of independence, I assume that’s the part you felt it was unnecessary to respond to, as it’s the part you avoided addressing in your ‘fight back’ manly response?

It’s okay not to vote Yes. Talking down to people who don’t share your views and being arrogant with it…makes ye a fanny.

Just heard that it’s doubtful that T May will be ousted, as the Johnston / Baker squad require 159 votes.

Shame to come on here, work your way through so many excellent informative posts to find the thread terminated by the usual culprits using the same filthy language. Don’t be conned by those who profess to be “weeding out trolls”. They clearly use their own ‘techniques’ in an attempt to ruin this site / diminish support for independence.

It’s fine Petra…I’ll bite…we all know it’s me your going for…I mean every time anyone else uses a swear word you let it pass, just like you did with C57.

To help others understand that why not just direct your comment specifically to me?

But that wouldn’t be as much fun as deliberately ignoring the context of my post and your secret delight at casting me as some ‘filth’ because I used the word cunt in a comment to another poster who called me a bitchcunt, which strangely enough…you did not ‘jump on’ further up the thread.

Consistency paradoxically is both your strong and weak point. You consistently look out for my comments that feed into your filth detector whilst studiously ignoring, consistently, those from other posters who produce some filth too.

K1, stop, you rabid nutcase. I don’t know what you are, and for your claim to be the victim of a gender insult to be justified, I’d have to have never called any one else on here a cunt who professes to be male.
So you actually believe what you said about my attitude to independence? Jesus. “REEEEE. Disprove my wild, baseless allegations, based in part on your pseudonym!” No. Haha. Fucking hell, the arrogance. Think what you like. I’d have to respect you to care, and not think you are a hideous troll who thinks their shit doesn’t stink.

K1, it’s a bit feeble that you ask Petra to be honest in addressing her post to you regarding cuss words, despite it being equally applicable to me, but completely fail to acknowledge the part of Petra’s post which can apply to you – ‘Don’t be conned by those who profess to be “weeding out trolls”.’

Folk on here can see right through you. You are anything but honest, yet hypocritically pounce on any lack of integrity – percieved or real – in others who you don’t like. You’re no better than me at my snide, arrogant worst.

Petra @ 11.47
What on earth are ye doing Petra?
Picking on another Winger who is only defending themselves is whats counter productive to Independence!
I do hope that K1 is wrong and ye are no targeting one poster in particular and it’s only chance that makes it look that way.Because I had thought better of you than that.
If ye get over yerself and read the comments in context,I’m sure you will see as I do that K1 was actually posting in such a way as to dis empower the word…and in that respect I wish more would… EG African Americans own the “N” word so much so,they only they really get to use it….
This is an adult site and when the halfwits try to lower the tone then I would have said that any poster is entitled to respond as they see fit,without being castigated as “foul” from others…. It is rev Stus site and he doesn’t seem to believe that its being harmed!!!
Please think about what I said….there only words..

I like K1’s robust postings, even when they have been addressed to me in the past (though maybe not at the actual time).

And I like Petra reminding us to be well-behaved – even if we don’t pay attention, it shows lurkers that it isn’t normal behaviour for the forum, just when one or two of us get a bit over the top about some troll or something or other. Which let’s face it, we are going to carry on doing at times.

As for the other one who is trying to take advantage and creat splits – redacted off you redactedredactedredacted.

If you didn’t respect me as much as you say, why so boverred about what I did say?

I think ‘bitchcunt’ really is a gendered insult rn. C’mon…don’t take it so hard…I only called ye a fanny, you’ve gone way over the top on this rn. Please don’t bring Petra in to this, it’s a separate issue wrt her particular issue with language use on here.

If you could provide at least some back up for the ‘you’re anything but honest’ I could maybe consider…taking you a wee bit seriously, but you can’t, can you?

Whereas ma particular observations where based on your actual ‘intellectual dishonesty’. Did you see how that worked there…where I call you intellectually dishonest and explain why and how I see it that way. But you just insult in response and decide to just call me not honest…for no other reason than…let’s see…you’re angry? About what I did say?

You don’t disagree with my take on your character rn. And of course you now resort to calling others on here ‘fruitcake zone’, because some agreed with ma view on your character.

So, it’s us that have it all wrong about you. Did you even think for a moment before posting your latest…that maybe, just maybe…you are in fact a…fanny?

Yesindyref2 @ 6.53
Hi….Ive never been in the “none of the above” group before…. LOL….. I’m usually in the opinionated witch group…
I think yer right about this site not normally (hope I’m not sounding fluffy here) using colourful language,and while it sometimes slips in and can be useful to indicate the strength of feeling the bulk of posts are in the form of conversation.

This is where some of the dimmer one’s give themselves away,because I think they forget which type of forum they are on.
They must be spending time on other site’s (and there are loads of them) where this is normal and in every other post!
Then they “rock” up here and speak in the same way.

No one is ”gunning” for you. I used the word ”culprits.” ”S” for plural.

@ Liz ….

Tell you what Liz, I’m ”picking” on people, if you want to call it that, who are driving down support for Independence. Do you really think that people want to come on here and read this kind of stuff?

I thought the whole idea of this site was to impart information, or whatever, to enlighten individuals and generate more support? All of the ”if we could only convert one other” that we hear about. Forget about generating more support and consider, conversely, how many people this kind of language is actually driving away. I know for a fact that it’s put a great many people right off, hence my harping on about it. I can also say that this is not an adult only site.

If anyone wants to ”dis-empower’ a word or a particular poster surely it can be done by reporting it to Stu rather than just perpetuating the same type of language? Stu has already pointed out that he can’t read every post and it’s up to us to report them … the ”halfwits”.

And yes I have been and I’m still considering what you’re saying Liz and disagree with your comment ”there only words.”

There are ”words” and ”words.” Words are extremely powerful and have an energy that can be used in a constructive or destructive way, to the point of starting wars.

Anyway I apologize to everyone on here for posting O/T follow-up comments. It’s the last thing I want to do and all so unnecessary if certain individuals would just remember that this is a public forum, we’re all supposed to be working together (not always agreeing with each other of course) to promote the Independence cause, supposed to be role-models and in light of that consider the impact our words can have on the thousands of people who visit this site.

K1, I’m flattered that you’re attempting to imitate my tone towards you now you’ve run out of sanctimonious anger, but you should step away from the screen now.
You descended to a base level of intellectual dishonesty about me being against independence which involved my username (lol come ON!) to cover your anger at me for not sharing some view of yours, and for insulting someone you want to protect. You’ll never admit that. But I know it, and so does anyone else who witnesses a ‘REEEE this person is against independence’ shitpost aimed without any evidence of any sort.

I can only shrug at you. There’s nothing more to do. I’m not going to change or stop posting what I like, when I like, because of the tantrum you’re having. You’ve come out of this looking pre-tty bad.

K1 @ 10.07
It’s not worth yer time K1,any hope of joined up thinking left around 3 posts ago.
I’ve heard indignant teenagers make more sense.
He’s just goading now …. Some say leave him to Stu…
I say come on over tae the main thread and let him STEW..
(See what I did there)

I don’t doubt that the results ARE broadly representative of those who vote along those lines. AND, it isn’t an earth-shatteringly important poll. Although very interesting to me.

But I do wonder about one thing. The sample sizes for Tory and LibDem are quite small. Almost FOUR TIMES as many SNP voters as Tories. Whilst that may be representative of how Scotland votes, will the results of THIS poll be representative of how Tories think??

Know your enemy!!

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Mundell said the withdrawal bill would return powers to Scotland, it didn't, he said he'd amend the bill so it would, he didn't, he said the Lords would amend it so it would, they didn't, he said he would resign if NI got a bespoke deal, they did, he didn't.. #ScotRef /1