I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.

Greatest trades in Sox history:
Sox get Nellie Fox from Philadelphia A's for Joe Tipton.
Sox get Billy Pierce from Tigers for Aaron Robinson.
Sox get Paulie from Reds for Mike Cameron.
Sox get Ozzie from Padres for LaMarr Hoyt.
Sox get Shoeless Joe from the Indians for a couple of no names and 31,000 dollars.
Sox get Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm, Ron Hansen and Dave Nicholson for Luis Aparicio and Al Smith.
The Dick Allen trade gets honorable mention because he only spent 3 years with us.
Not a trade but signing Carlton Fisk in 1981 as a free agent was huge.

Thome trade is not even close.

I would add the following trade:

Sox get Jose Valentin and Cal Eldred from the Brewers for Jaime Navarro and John Snyder.

__________________
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin

I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.

Yes, that's understandable, but what about '07?

Rowand wasn't a FA until the end of that season, and having him in CF could have spared us Erstad, Mackowiak and Jerry Owens, much less could have given B.A. a reason to work instead of hang with the honeys and being gifted a roster spot.

And the cash spent on Thome again could have been used to improve the roster.

No I seriously don't want to argue this. I provided the numbers, you're a stat guy, it should be obvious to you the number of games the Sox won in 05 with balance, singles, bunt hits, home runs, stolen bases.....it should also be obvious the way they won games (or more to the point didn't win games after July 2006) in 2006.

And yes I agree pitching was part of the issue but that's not what we were talking about was it.

Rowand wasn't a FA until the end of that season, and having him in CF could have spared us Erstad, Mackowiak and Jerry Owens, much less could have given B.A. a reason to work instead of hang with the honeys and being gifted a roster spot.

And the cash spent on Thome again could have been used to improve the roster.

I for one did not hate him, I hated Ozzie for trotting him out to CF everyday.

Bingo. Mackowiak was a great signing for the bench and pinch hitting. Ozzie misused him - and hurt the team's defense and thus the pitching - by putting him in a CF platoon.

__________________The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.

No I seriously don't want to argue this. I provided the numbers, you're a stat guy, it should be obvious to you the number of games the Sox won in 05 with balance, singles, bunt hits, home runs, stolen bases.....it should also be obvious the way they won games (or more to the point didn't win games after July 2006) in 2006.

And yes I agree pitching was part of the issue but that's not what we were talking about was it.

Lip

So you still can't tell me how Thome vs Thomas/Everett diminished the team balance?

Rowand wasn't on the club that's how the 'balance' was destroyed. He was also very popular in the clubhouse and a real gamer....I know that doesn't count for **** because you can't measure it.

The point isn't Thome vs. Thomas / Everett (although Carl was a terrific team leader and clubhouse presence. Not having him around also dramatically changed the culture...again I know it doesn't mean ****, you can't measure it).

It changed team balance because Jim was another home run or nothing middle of the order base clogger. NOT SAYING he didn't have a good year, he did, he had a damn fine season but adding him I think was one to many of THE SAME TYPE OF HITTER in the lineup and having him right in front of Paulie really hurt the Sox options to do different things under Ozzie.

They scored a lot of runs (until the second half) but they also went into a lot of slumps of the nature of scoring a bunch of runs one night, than doing little the next.

The point was Thome vs. Rowand. I don't know if I can address your comment any more than I have...and again I'm not saying a thing against Jim as a person or as a player but he was just like Dye, like Konerko, like Buehrle...great players, but quiet...it wasn't their way to call out a teammate, get in someone's face, make an issue on the field and if it meant getting into something with someone on the other team than so be it.

The 2006 Sox were limited in what they could do to score runs and they were very limited in vocal leadership.

That trade was very fair for both teams involved. I wouldn't classify it as a steal for the Sox by any means. It freed-up money and got us a leadoff man who would be productive for two years.

The Carlos Lee trade was great precisely because it freed up money that became Iguchi, Pierzynski, and El Duque. Look at it as those three plus Podsednik in exchange for Carlos Lee, and it is indeed a steal.

If you look at just the immediate consequences of a trade, then the Garcia trade was horrible. It was the extension of Garcia later that season that made it worthwhile.

__________________"Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined."-- Thucydides

I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.

Brian Anderson killed that team. Killed it. I just don't get why you trade for Thome when you won a W.S. with Rowand in CF. I agree with the poster who said Frank and Rowand probably get you back into the playoffs. I just didn't love the trade when it happened. Now, Thome was great to have in '08, but I would have rather been a playoff team in '06.

__________________"I'm sorry that you don't like our manager," Williams says he told him.

"I'm sorry that you don't like our 3-4-5 hitters. Or our closer.

"I'm sorry that you don't like our third baseman and our shortstop. Or our left fielder and our right fielder.

"I'm sorry people feel this way about our club. But I also want you to know something about that:

Brian Anderson killed that team. Killed it. I just don't get why you trade for Thome when you won a W.S. with Rowand in CF. I agree with the poster who said Frank and Rowand probably get you back into the playoffs. I just didn't love the trade when it happened. Now, Thome was great to have in '08, but I would have rather been a playoff team in '06.

Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.