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Comment

We went, and had a great night. It was well attended and the parties involved went above and beyond to make it a memorable and impressive event. The only mildly disappointing thing was that the horses were just led in, no riding or jumping. But in reality, there were tons of days for genuine buyers to try them out and they did have the flat and jumping videos of the horse in the ring going on a giant screen behind the ring as the horse was being led around (which some of the horses thought watching themselves on the big screen was quite scary!). Given the ages of these horses I really can't blame them, but of course I just like to watch horses jump

I wrote these down as we were watching and talking so forgive me if they aren't 100% accurate. And they are put down in bridle tag order, not the order they came into the ring.

The booklet had the ages/breeds wrong for some of the horses, so I haven't added that information in here just in case it was wrong. All the horses were quite young but going under saddle and most if not all were already jumping/showing. All were in great flesh and well presented, and managed the crowds and fanfare which would have been intimidating for even an experienced horse. It was a great night and I look forward to next year!

Comment

This might be harsh but I'm really disappointed with the quality of the horses at the CWHBA fall sale compared to what went through the CSHA sale.

The bloodlines the cwhba breeders out here are using are extremely stale. Not all of course but the majority of the horses seem mediocre.

I feel bad saying it but it's starting to frustrate me to see... I don't feel like the CWHBA is being advanced as well as it could be.

I'm not alone in this sentiment. A lot of great breeders in Alberta are not bothering with the CWHBA anymore. (this is from the horses mouth. So to speak)

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but as far as the bloodlines, I think you are very incorrect and obviously made the statement before you actually looked at the bloodlines.

The highest selling horse was lot #3 by Ikoon. This talented stallion is owned by Creekside farms here in Alberta. If you go and look at the CWHBA sale you will find that Linda, of Creekside, has two animals in the sale. One by Ikoon , lot 29 CW sale and Quidam Blue lot 14 (another talented stallion with great lines that stands here in Alberta). Altoghether there is 4 Ikoon offspring that are very nice in the CW sale

Lot #4 in the CSH sale is out Talme, another great Alberta owned Stallion. And the lady (Klondike Victory Farms) that owns him sits on the BOD for Canadian Warmblood Alberta Chapter. The CWHBA has many of Klondike's offspring registered and several at the sale this year. Klondike Victory Farms has some very, very nice Dutch bloodlines. And Lorrie competes her own stallions at the GP level as a rider. She is one of those rare breeders that rides what she breeds and it show in her animals.

Lot 7 is by an Alberta stallion that is only approved with CWHBA, Carthago Sun I, . He went through stallion approval with CWHBA. He has a full brother, also CWHBA approved stallion, that jumps 1.5m at Spruce Meadows. These are talented stallions with great jumper lines. Did I mention they are approved as CW stallions?

Lot 11 is by MJ Fusion. This stallion was owned by our CWHBA Alberta Chapter president. He was also approved through CW. Same farm, MJ, has some great offspring by their new stallion in the CW sale this year. He was bred by Bosch farms. Bosch Farms have some super nice horses that they breed and import and show themselves to GP level. Thier daughter rides in the big ring at Spruce. Another family that rides as well as breeds. Bosch farms also bred a horse that was short listed for the Canadian dressage team.

Lot 13 is by Portland, yet another talented jumper stallion that is in Alberta. He also has several offspring in the CW sale.

In the CWHBA sale we also have a VDL Arctic and Comic Hilltop as well as stallions such as Consul, Escudo ll, Wolkenstein ll, Blue Hors Zack, Furstenreich, Cabalito, Barricello, Earl, Graf Top, Don Federico and Bam Bam, a exciting young stallion being ridden by Kyle King.
I don't care so much about the insult you made to the organization but it is the insult to the breeders that really bugs me. By making statements like that, you are in affect dismissing their efforts. Many of these people are also importing horses and use another registry besides CW and as I showed many breeders that are using the CWHBA sale are the ones responsible for the bloodlines in the CSH sale. They are not breeding disappointing animals.

Comment

I apologize. I did not intend to insult the organization as clearly I have bred a TB CWHBA mare who I thought was high quality. (she scored a premium)

Just to clarify as well, the examples you picked out above are indeed the exceptions I was referring to. High end animals and excellent breeders. I know those stallions and appreciate the work that went into them.

I don't proclaim to be an expert by any means and i hope not to make an enemy here! you're right, there are some very nice bloodlines going through but there are a number of breeders who are not expanding at all and are continually using the same stallions over and over despite a lackluster result. The high end breeders I've spoken to have expressed dismay at the continued issues.

I was trying to avoid pointing out specific breeders (there are 5-6 I'm continually seeing issues with) and as a result I've offended... Not my intention and perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Comment

Organizations are what you make of them. They are driven by the members. Don't like something? Work to change it. It is a volunteer organization, and people donate their time (a lot of time!) to help the local industry with things like these sales and shows. Everyone has ideas and critiques (and some are valid) but unless people are willing to step up and help, the criticism does little to improve the industry. After all it is a public organization and does not belong to any one person or group.
As for the sale, I probably covered 70 or 80 percent of the bloodlines in the description above. The difference is that CW is a breeders sale and most are young horses that are not proven. I really liked the CSH sale as it was proof of the same bloodlines doing well under saddle. I hope people will consider for themselves the horses offered in the sale as there are some quality horses.

Comment

You need to focus on each sale for what they are. Your post clearly showed an ignorance of what these sales each represent.

The sport horse sale was just that: a sale for sport horses. Horses going under saddle that are already in or ready to start in sport. Many of the horses in that sale were registered with Canadian Warmblood, it does not show a disparity between the registries. All of those horses came from top competition barns and trainers and were presented as such. They were all in full training for a long time before that sale and showed that level of musculature and upkeep.

Saying that the horses in the upcoming fall sale are of lesser quality seems a a little presumptuous and ignorant since they haven't even been presented yet, and it's comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a fit five year old in full training from a top elite barn to a shaggy two year old straight from a field is unfair.The only difference is the level of training the horses have and the level of presentation. The CSH sale had a lot more bling and a lot more effort was made to get good photos and video of the horses. That effort is not made at the fall sale because it's a breeders sale. Most of the horses are coming there as two and three year olds straight off the farm, not from show barns.

It takes a real horseman to see past the lack of sheen and muscle on a two or three year to the real horse underneath. It's easy to be impressed by shiny muscular horses but not always easy to see the quality in a growthy two year old with a badly braided mane. There are great deals to be had on quality horses at the fall sale for a buyer who is a horseman.

Based on pedigree alone, I see no difference in the horses between the two sales. Many of the same stalllions represented, many quality pedigrees. Many of the same breeding farms represented. Absolutely there are some poor quality horses being produced, and often by some farms who continue to be less selective of their mares, but to say that is a trait of CSH vs CWB based on those two sales that have very difference objectives is naive at best.

Comment

I think that my original post is being purposely twisted in an attempt to make me look bad. I don't feel that my abilities as a horseman need to be attacked due to me expressing my opinion. Disappointing.

There are lots of good quality horses going through, I never denied that. My comment about a number of poor quality stale bloodlines going through is accurate and I do not retract it. - it's been going on for years. I've BEEN to the last 2 sales. I will admit that this year there are a few more unique and exciting bloodlines going through,

I will spell out my ONLY point to make it clear.

There are a number of Alberta, Sk and BC breeders who need to re-evaluate their programs. They produce one good horse for 10 they've bred and those are not appropriate numbers in this market where horses are overproduced.

Comment

There are a number of Alberta, Sk and BC breeders who need to re-evaluate their programs. They produce one good horse for 10 they've bred and those are not appropriate numbers in this market where horses are overproduced.

I agree 100 percent. However, they likely won't re-evaluate anything they are doing, why, I don't know. They are clearly still stuck in the days when any warmblood would bring a decent price. This just isn't the reality anymore.

And to be honest, there definitely is a difference in overall quality between the two sales. The average prices reflect that difference (and no, it has nothing to do with fitness, shine, presentation ect). Yes, there are some nice prospects in the CWB auction, a couple I would love to have in my barn. But in general there is a very different level of overall quality between the two sales.

I know that the people that put on the CSH sale made a very big effort to put on a sale unlike the CWB one. They wanted to have horses that were screened by an unbiased professional for quality, they required a decent set of x-rays that needed to pass inspection by an EQUINE vet and they made every effort to bring what the market demands to the sale (ie not 15 two year olds!). And guess what? It worked!

Honestly, I would like to register my horses with CWB because it would be much cheaper and more convenient. There are many excellent breeders that are involved with the registry , many who breed super quality horses. But until it stops being dominated by a certain someone (and a couple of other stuck in the 70's) then no thanks. I just don't agree with anything he/they stand for and quite frankly I don't want to give my money to them. I am sorry if that offends anyone but that is my honest reasoning.

Again, there is lots to like about the registry and I really commend the passionate breeders that are working to make a difference. I see in the upcoming breeders show they have hired some very good, experienced judges which is a huge step (it used to often be Chris Gould or some other local breeder). I do think things are changing within the registry towards a much better future...I hope so anyways.

Comment

At the risk of further offending those defending some poor breeding practices alive in Canada, I have to side with Ssporthorses to a degree on this one.

This entire thread is a perfect example of where we are lacking as a breeding community. The only horses mentioned here are the stallions/sires. Good and successful breeders know that the first place to look in a pedigree is the motherline. When I flip through the listings in both the CWHBA and the CSHA sales, I look at the sires last. I sit in front of the computer on the horsetelex site and look up the mothers, the grandmothers, and their production. If I can't find them on horsetelex I check allbreed. Many of the mares in both sales I am already familiar with as many have had offspring go through the CWHBA sale. Those ones usually have made some decent amateur horses. Very few have produced what both associations claim to have as their breeding goal, horses for the Olympic disciplines at a top level.

Of the stallions mentioned some have a decent performance record, some have a decent production record, some have a good motherline. Only a few of them have all 3 or even 2. We need to be breeding exceptional mothers to stallions that have exceptional mothers.

The CSHA sale, in general, had horses from better mothers and motherlines. I will say, however, that much of the information for those horses didn't even mention the motherlines (Janko from VDL was the only one to point out some of these). There were 2 horses in particular who had a St. Pr. grandmother who has produced an internationally successful 1.50m horse in Europe (ridden and owned by the current winner of the Hamburg Derby), licensed stallions, Bundeschampionate and German Riding Horse Championship competitors, etc. That information was totally missing and very important to note as it helps ensure the quality of the horse being purchased. Yes, the CSHA sale had significantly better marketing and presentation, but the quality was, overall, higher than what we see at the fall sale. The ladies that put it on are very well respected horsewomen who know how to market. A breeders sale should not be offering horses of either less quality or a lackluster presentation. The most successful auctions are typically in Europe and those horses, regardless of age, come in the ring well prepared. Should a good horseman be able to see past a poor presentation? Yes. Is it good marketing for an organization to allow poor presentations? No. Does it help build the brand? No. The VDL auction in the US this year was a great example of a well built brand (and guess who the organizers of the CSHA sale had as their pedigree reader?).

The CWHBA sale has one mother that interested me at all, and was still lacking what I'd want to buy or breed (my goal being a horse to jump at the top of the sport). If the goal of the association is to continue to produce what its producing (lower level, enjoyable amateur horses) then it should be changing its breeding goal information to reflect that. In general neither association is producing horses for the top of the sport in a consistent way. We need better mothers in order to accomplish that! And we need better stallions from better mothers!

There are certainly breeders in Canada who are doing a great job with both good mares and good stallions. However, they are not the majority and are not usually present in the sales.

For myself, I am in the process of building my mare band. My 3 mares are from very good mothers, motherlines, and one is a proven mother (produced an approved stallion in Europe and horses successful to 1.50m). However, I haven't yet gotten a mare from one of the top motherlines in the world. I understand that not everyone can start at the top and most of us have to work toward it. But we need the education and commitment to do it!

I appreciate that our Canadian organizations are working toward increasing the quality of the products and the stringency of our approval processes. There is a ways to go and the best way to make improvements is to get involved. There are a couple of high profile rider/breeders who are committed to this and we should start seeing even better results.

I'd love to continue to have an open, positive, helpful discussion and am always willing to learn!

Comment

Of course there are breeders that need to improve, in any registry.
I don't think it is a total waste as there are always amateurs looking for their next mount for less money. But the great law of Darwin (horse version) suggests that selling your less than stellar wb for under 5k, when it still took 5k to produce will eventually weed out those breeders. And if they are able to continue to produce at a profit than it means they have a market that supports their program. So be it. I doubt anyone (competitor or fellow breeder) is not going to recognize their products for what they are, the mares will not accidently make their way into their fields of well thought out breeders. No one that has any knowledge buys a brand, they buy the horse in front of them. Even top lines have flops.
I do not berate you for your standards, I just do not want people to lump all the horses together before they have a look for themselves. There is a few I wouldn't want except for pleasure horses, and they will sell as such. But there are more than a few that I would be happy to own.
And on a more positive note, I am excited about the judges this year also at the Breeders show. And it is open to all WB's. Good way to see who people are breeding to and the results.
Moreover, if you do not like how it is run, help change it. It is volunteer organization so it needs people to help with the change. I think there should be changes to.....
But instead of grouping everyone together and tossing the baby out with the bathwater, be part of the change. The board are voted in, be a part of it. Even if it is a second registry for you, it is a good space to exchange ideas and be with peers. One of the greatest advantages the Europeans have over us, the knowledge base and peer support.

Honestly, I would like to register my horses with CWB because it would be much cheaper and more convenient. There are many excellent breeders that are involved with the registry , many who breed super quality horses. But until it stops being dominated by a certain someone (and a couple of other stuck in the 70's) then no thanks. I just don't agree with anything he/they stand for and quite frankly I don't want to give my money to them. I am sorry if that offends anyone but that is my honest reasoning.

I will defend the breeders and ask that they not all be lumped together. There are crap breeders in Europe that belong to the Verbands. But your statement above is fair in that it is your opinion of things as they stand. But realize that in order for things to change and improve (like any registry must) there has to be people willing to step up and do some work. If people are sincere about wishing things will change, then be apart of that change. Don't leave it to people that you disagree with. It is a public group and belongs to all Canadians that want to use it. No other Wb's groups can carry Canadian papers because of the legislation.

Comment

As a breeder, volunteer(in both organizations) AND a organizer of the Alberta Invitational Warmblood Sale, I feel I can voice an honest overall opinion on the sales here in Alberta.
There is room for 2 sales:
The CSH sale showed how it can be done and done very well--for the age group and training levels: 1-Preselected horses by KNOWLEDGBLE horse people.
2-having the xrays(32 shots) examined by a EQUINE VET
3-Horses presented professionally
4-Generous times for tryouts
5-Making the evening an event, keeping the buyers happy along
with the consignors
6-keeping the number of horses reasonable--there were enough
bidders for each horse.
Again for this age group this sale ticked all the boxes to make it an great event with prices that reflected the work that the sellers and sale put in to in. As a breeder I would look to this sale for my young going horses as it represents how I want to see my horses put in the public eye(If they make the grade), and all the sellers worked hard to have their horses look top notch.

With regards to the CWB sale, the organization has done a great job in getting the sale to where it is now, yes I KNOW it takes many to people to make it work--ran one myself. BUT there needs to be a few(in my opinion) changes to keep up with the times.
1. Less horses, bottom line there are too many horses and not enough buyers
2. They have to look at the true quality of some of these horses--the 2011 sale had a horse who's right front foot turned in sooooo bad it was almost pointing to the right hock, now this is not all the horses but I would say they could cull/drop/not accept at least 20% of the underpar horses--as breeders do we not want to be proud of our animals???
3. Limit the # of offspring of any indv stallion--when you have 5+ of any stallion this hurts the overall sale.
4. WINTERS POST:
The CSH sale had a lot more bling and a lot more effort was made to get good photos and video of the horses. That effort is not made at the fall sale because it's a breeders sale. Most of the horses are coming there as two and three year olds straight off the farm, not from show barns. ARE YOU NUTS????? THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF BREEDERS TAKING THE CHEAP WAY OUT. I am a breeder and a buisness person--First impressions are the most important, It can be done and its easier to turn out a foal, yearling or a 2 yr old than a going horse. Bring it in the barn, put a blanket on, hire a photographer/video person to get that all important MONEY SHOT--Look at horses that have been presented by Henri and Laurie de Groot from Sunhill Farms, you will never never never find better handled or presented horses--they don't cheap out. Why should the breeders not present a good product and show they have some pride in what they produce instead of just taking out of the field and hope for the best? If you don't care you should not be rewarded.
I think there are some very interesting bloodlines in the CWB sale but I also agree that there are some STALE ones as well--
Again there is room for 2 sales, neither should rest on their laurels and should always look for ways to improve their sale--it benefits all -- sellers are happy and the buyers are happy.
I am glad to see this being talked about because new ideas and opinions come about with discussions and change usually helps not hinders.

Comment

ss, I did not intend to offend you as a horseman, it was meant to be a general comment about that sale, not directed at you personally. I do maintain that there are often some nice horses at the fall sale that are not well represented in their condition or turnout. I also maintain that a lot of buyers have trouble looking past poor condition and turnout, which is why it is to the sale's advntage to have all horses represented to look their best. My intent was to say that both registries need improvement and that the sales alone were not entirely a reflection of each organisation. I don't think CSH is immune to poor breeders or poor quality. As one poster pointed out, many of the consigners at the CSH sale are also consigners at the fall sale. I also don't think the sales reflect the organisations, they reflect the standard that is deemed acceptable by the individuls who organise them.

I don't see why there isn't room for those who breed for the amateur market? Surely there are amateurs who need horses too?

Icon, I totally agree about the level of catering to buyer that was acheived by the CSH sale and think Linda and her team did an excellent job. I was at that sale and have been at every CWB sale for at least the last eight or ten years. I have also been to sales in Europe.
The first thing I said after the CSH sale: the presentation was far superior to the fall sale; the catered tables were more posh, the evening time slot was convenient. The horses were beautifully turned out, the video of each horse jumping the same course was excellent. I only wish the horses were ridden during bidding, that is one of the nicest parts of sales. I also absolutely agree about the turn out at the fall sale, I don't know why pointing out how it is lacking makes me nuts? It is the absolute deteriment to those horses and breeders which is why I pointed it out. I didn't say it was right to bring your horse in from the field, I was just stating a fact. That's how it is. Every year we cringe watching horses come in who aren't clipped, have bad braid jobs, are too thin and are not fit for the sale. One year a horse was so thin it was sent home. It boggles my mind that there are breeders who think it's ok to present a horse that way, and that the sale commitee allows it. My intention was to say that BECAUSE of that terrible turnout a lot of horses are not shown to the best of their ability, and kudos to the organisers of the CSH sale for getting it right!

I do think, in this instance, the prices are difficult to compare. A horse showing in young horse classes, in a full time program and who has been to Thermal is certainly going to cost more that a just broke three year old or two year old. And every year at the fall sale the nicest three year old is similarly priced as the one three year old was in the CSH sale.

I agree with the poster who says there is room for two sales; a young horse sale and a riding horse sale could be very well received.

Comment

I don't see why there isn't room for those who breed for the amateur market? Surely there are amateurs who need horses too?

Absolutely, the biggest market is the amateur market! My issue with the organizations in that regard is that their results do not match their stated breeding goals. In terms of a brand, I won't register my horses there as, typically, the buyers I want my horses going to won't be actively searching out horses registered there as they are not known to be producing the same as my breeding goal. Having said that, breeding for the amateur market is a whole other kettle of fish, and a tricky one to get appropriate results. ;-)

stoicfish, I'm not sure that I want to get involved evaluating a horse belonging to someone else or their breeding goals for that product (although I'd like to know the thought process behind that). However, I'm curious why you posted that horse (http://www.fallclassicsale.com/lots.php?id=13) in particular? A genuine question in an effort to see what others see...As a side note, this filly is one of the only ones that comes from an easily traceable motherline and is anchored in Holstein. For those interested, this is her motherline, Holsteiner stamm 5951: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/408073

Comment

I'm so glad this got back on track and I'm kicking myself for not wording things to promote a positive discussion in the first place..

Winter - sorry if I took your comment to be directed at me. I think I was a little on the defence when I read it..

Icon - I completely agree! Definitely room for two sales but one comment really hit home:
***3. Limit the # of offspring of any indv stallion--when you have 5+ of any stallion this hurts the overall sale.*** (And dam sires)

And I agree there are not enough buyers for the number of horses going through.

MOST of the market isn't looking to buy a 2 year old.. *I* am looking to buy a 2 year old which I then put the training into and sell to the amateur competitor.. I still will be looking for a high quality product and can see past an awkward 2 year old... this is not the issue I'm seeing...

Again, I'm not going to go into specifics but what I saw the last two years I attended the sale were the same thing over and over..

Leah A - Thank you for making the point on the mare lines. I'm NOT going to go into specifics but there are SOME sub-par mares that should never have been approved for CWHBA. A sire can not fix the mare's faults which seems to be a trend..

Donella - Thank you for commenting on the warmblood show.. completely agree that a *great* step has been taken in getting proper judges in.. and I think opening up the classes is going to really promote higher attendance and therefore more interest in CWHBA