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Using chokes in knife defence

Recently my training partner and I began really trying to pressure test some knife defence. One of the aspects we came to question is weather it is safe to use chokes in such circumstances. Obviously the first option is to run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. However, in circumstances where you can only fight, is it safe to use a choke?

We experimented with different chokes and different weapons, coming to different conclusions, in particular the danger of using front chokes. In theory, you can be stabbed as the choke is put on slowly and your partner knows it is coming, even before you have started the choke, especially when the aim is to see if you can be "stabbed" from this position it makes the experiment somewhat defunct. In the heat of a live confrontations are such techniques safe to use? I love chokes and strangles as a great set of techniques, but are they safe to use in such circumstances?

All input is greatly appreciated as it is something which has been of great interest of late in determining weather you need one set of techniques for unarmed confrontation and one for armed etc.

In general, chokes are too risky to use against a knife. Assuming for the sake of the discussion that I am able to reach a position of advantage during the fight, I would choose other techniques instead of a choke.

Consider the ideal situation of catching someone by surprise with a rear naked choke. There are a range of methods available to the knife-holder to defend. With a small enough knife, the person could stab you in the forearm from either above or below and then tear your arm away. Someone who panicks may try to stab over his shoulder to land a blind shot. Sure, you might get lucky and put him out before he cuts you, but it seems unlikely.

So even in this ideal situation, I would change the choke out for something more athletic/explosive. Instead of choking, you could seize the person by the neck and slam him backwards and down. There is still a risk of being stabbed, but now you are in motion and the enemy is off his feet. There is a variation on this sort of technique in Kushanku, actually; I am thinking of the part of the kata where you fall forward onto your hands.

Once he is down, you have a few options: 1) run away, 2) kick him in the head, 3) or try and trap the knife hand. I would prefer option 2, followed by option 1.

The guillotine choke is even riskier since your legs are exposed. A stab to the thigh that tags the femoral artery could be fatal. So instead of trying to finish the choke, I would place my hands on the back of the head and sprawl down onto his face. Again, a risk of being stabbed in the process.

This all presumes an ideal situation. The reality is likely to be a surprise, sewing-machine style series of stabs. So you would have to overcome this somehow in order to even reach a place where you could choke him.

I do have a different set of techniques I use for a knife . . . kind of a system, I guess. These techniques usually start with a rapid series of stabs to the body. I then work on gaining limb control of the knife arm. The system branches out from there depending on the way the fight unfolds. Given my experience, it would be nearly impossible to work my way into a guillotine choke position against someone who was fighting hard. These techniques still use the same principles of my unarmed fighting, but they are just adapted for the knife scenario.

My philosophy on knife training: always expect the worst (a frenzy of stabs). You are very likely to be stabbed, but you should not let that stop you from fighting. Third, since a knife gives your enemy a huge advantage, you should not be alarmed if you lose most of the time when you are training this live. So long as your technique is sound, it just means that your training partner is giving you a realistic level of resistance and that you are developing actual skill.

On a tangent...

It seems to me that knife defense discussions typically fall into either extreme optimism or extreme pessimism. The optimists will train elaborate techniques against a single, telegraphed stab from a long distance. They will become very skilled at executing these techniques and will feel prepared to deal with knives in reality (when they are actually still totally unprepared). Then there are the pessimists who will tell you that trying to train against a knife is pointless and that you will always lose. The truth is closer to the pessimistic view point, but I still think it is valuable to train, and that training can give you a reasonable chance of living through an encounter with a knife.

Too many "if's" to use a choke when dealing with a knife attack. "If" they come in like this I can evade and get to an advantageous position to the rear etc...

Best bet, defend against the attacking arm, control it if you can but most importantly batter the hell out of the little reprebate holding the knife. I find it's best to "block" and strike at the same time, if the initial strike doesn't have the desired effect of leaving said reprebate in a snotty heap on the floor, then strike again until he is.

(This is from 8 years experience of dealing with knife attacks at least once a month).

I'd say no, they'd only make any sense there if you were somehow in a confined space, with unlimited time, and knew that no one else would be involved, and knew you had the wherewithal tochoke someone out/to death which is to say...almost never. It seems to me you'd be better served by doing something else with the positions used to set up chokes..at least standing.

Mmmmmm I'm concerned deltabluesman "Kick them in the Head" awesome, I would never try to kick someone in the head in the street, even if you could what it leaves open it your femoral Artery - cut that you got around 3 1/2 mins left of life.

I would ONLY kick someone in the head if I'd already downed the attacker and needed to prevent him from attacking me any further (within the legal requirements for the country I'm in).

Chokes I wouldn't choke it would stop the attack however needed and Run. Using any weapon I could to defend myself including a rucksack, a Chair or a Bin or anything that puts me between the attacker , the knife and me

Mmmmmm I'm concerned deltabluesman "Kick them in the Head" awesome, I would never try to kick someone in the head in the street, even if you could what it leaves open it your femoral Artery - cut that you got around 3 1/2 mins left of life.

I would ONLY kick someone in the head if I'd already downed the attacker and needed to prevent him from attacking me any further (within the legal requirements for the country I'm in).

Hey Black Tiger,

I think you missed the first part of the sentence in the post above. Check it again:

“Once he is down, you have a few options: 1) run away, 2) kick him in the head, 3) or try and trap the knife hand. I would prefer option 2, followed by option 1.” I am only talking about a kick after you have sent him to the ground. I would never suggest high kicks in a situation where your life is on the line.

Hey Black Tiger,I think you missed the first part of the sentence in the post above. Check it again:

“Once he is down, you have a few options: 1) run away, 2) kick him in the head, 3) or try and trap the knife hand. I would prefer option 2, followed by option 1.” I am only talking about a kick after you have sent him to the ground. I would never suggest high kicks in a situation where your life is on the line.

I'm soooooooo glad I mis-read the sentence, LOL. Thanks for correcting me, appologies for not reading the sentence in in full. OSU

I think the general advice for knife defence usually revolves around controlling/destroying the limb(s) that is holding the weapon, at the same time as removing it from his grasp (if possible). Running along with hitting his off switch (jawline/neck) as hard and fast as possible, whilst still maintaining limb control.

We can never divorce technique from tactic. The situation, and our objective within that situation, will determine what tactics are required; and that will determine which techniques should be used.

There are only two ways you keep yourself safe from a weapon:

1, Incapacitate the person wilding the weapon (i.e. knock them out)

2, Retreat such that you are outside the effective range of the weapon (i.e. run away)

All other things are temporary advantages; these are the only two things that ensure ultimate safety. For example, controlling the weapon arm in the scramble such that they can’t stab you and, crucially, can’t simply pass the weapon to the uncontrolled arm is important … but that simply keeps you in a safer position while you try to realise either one of the two above. Controlling the weapon arm, while important in the scrabble, won’t ultimately ensure your safety. Only incapacitation (1) and escape (2) can do that.

These core objectives will determine which tactics best achieve those objectives; and those tactics will determine which techniques should be used.

So with regards to chokes and strangles, their use removes option 2. You need to stay there to apply them. Unlike strikes, even the best strangle takes a couple of seconds to induce unconsciousness … and during that time – because most strangles and chokes take two arms to apply and hence the enemy’s weapon arm will be uncontrolled – the enemy can repeatedly stab and slash the arms applying the choke or strangle, stab you in the thigh and torso, and they can also frantically stab backward toward your face, eyes and neck.

Even during the couple of seconds before unconsciousness, the enemy would be able to do a lot of damage, and that’s also making the big assumption you’d be able to maintain the strangle while a knife was used against your arms and thrust repeatedly and violently over their shoulder and towards your head. It’s possible you could strangle them out, and then bleed out yourself. They wake up … you on the other hand …

Chokes and Strangles are a slow and very dangerous way to try to achieve objective 1, and they totally prevent objective 2 while they are being applied. I would therefore strongly suggest that chokes and strangles are inappropriate in a situation where the enemy is armed.

Greg wrote:

All input is greatly appreciated as it is something which has been of great interest of late in determining weather you need one set of techniques for unarmed confrontation and one for armed etc.

Controlling limbs, striking the head and neck, and escaping methods are techniques that apply to both contexts. So it’s not that we need an entirely different set of techniques, we just need to ensure that we are good at determining the right tactics for the situation (which will in turn determine which techniques we will draw on): escape options, the surrounding environment, number of enemies, do we need to protect others, weapons, etc. are all things that can change the objective, the required tactics and hence the required techniques.

On a general note, I see chokes and strangles as being techniques for guaranteed one-on-one situations where escape is not a possibility. The possibility of multiple enemies makes them inappropriate tactically (they leave you vulnerable to being attacked by others) and escape should be always be preferred were possible; regardless of numbers. This would therefore mean the use of chokes and strangles would rarely be advised for self-protection situations. In my view, they remain most suitable for “fighting” (sport, dojo, etc) where escape is taken off the table as an option (i.e. the winner is determined by who is the best fighter) and the fight will stay one-on-one.