If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

rich, your dog will love the mcdonald's...the cow will not...maybe an even exchange...the joke is lame...just an opinion, not offended judging the comment, not the commentor....gassho.

[trite "zen" adage] gonna go sit with this...no, not really...

It was not too long ago that we had a great discussion on this forum on vegetarianism which raised some strong emotions, opinions and positions. I've noticed one of the participants hasn't posted much since. so the only thing I want to say is that my dog is not a vegetarian and I do occasionally treat him to a hamburger. I,m sorry if this offends anyone.
/Rich

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

Originally Posted by mahakalaugh

no moral superiority...i can only say: 1) perhaps you didn't have the support and knowledge necessary to maintain your diet, 2) maybe you fall into the small minority of humans strictly dependenant on (some) animal protein for survival, and 3) i'm not advocating an sort of absolutist moral plan...

the "wolf" and "deer" in your scenario are not analogous to the current situation regarding the human / non-human relationship... nice try.

They are as relates to food sources - humans and canines are both omnivores, neither is strictly carnivorous.

Also, nice try using the 'you're doing it wrong' approach to my inability to maintain health on a vegetarian diet.

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

haha..NOOOO...not "you're doing it wrong"...well, not completely at least...i left myself an "out" in the "maybe you need it" clause... :lol:

regarding the wolves/deer/humans/(all other non-humans)-thing.... that's a HUGE "can of worms" you're opening bro... let's start with 1)think in terms of degree/continuum (ie, wolves are somewhat "more" carnivorous than humans...i'll be glad to back it up with science if you like) and 2) think in terms of necessity v. convenience/preference/conditioning/blah blah blah ad nauseum...

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

First, I'd like to appologize to everyone. I started this thread with the intent of gaining some wisdom or understanding around a question I had. It's kind of gotten away from there since then. Here's my two cents for what it's worth.

There seems to be alot of arguing now, though it's thinly veiled with a science teacher's vocabulary. I've noticed that the more heated the argument has gotten, that the words have gotten bigger and longer right along with it. I've also noticed a lot of "-ism's" being thrown around. As for cats and dogs and the like, I think that they show their original nature all the time. Perfectly cats and dogs. As to keeping cats and dogs as pets, well, that's what we do. Abusing a pet is wrong, sure, no one would deny that. But a dog is completely and wholly a dog whether it's wild or domesticated. That's the situation it's in. As for vegitarianism, well, the Buddha himself wasn't a vegitarian. Also, things that we should not eat, are made so we can't eat them. That's why we don't have rocks for dinner; and if we weren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat? And you can break out your science books and biology notebooks all you want and bandy back and forth at who is right about the carnivorous behavior of wolves and the availability of food for humans not being equal and all that until the cows come home, and it won't really mean anything. The fact that one person is a vegitarian and another is an omnivore means nothing, we are all the same anyway and all connected. No separation. Not between vegan and meat-eater, not between you and me, not between me and my cat Kunai.

By the way, Kunai came in from outside and I asked him if he was happy with how I treat him, and (being an animal himself) what he thought about the fact that I eat meat. He just walked right past me and to his food bowl like I never even said a word. Perfect cat. Terrible listener, though.

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

I also want to note that I don't mean to offend anyone either. I just know from firsthand experience that you can box yourself into some pretty neurotic ethical corners using the Dharma as the perfect excuse...so sometimes when I think I'm seeing that, I want to speak up. Sometimes I'm wrong, but I want to put it out there so that some rather common pitfalls can be avoided by people new and NOT SO NEW to the path. Maybe it's not my place and my sense of confidence comes across as rather cocky - but it's really just a matter of 'type as I think it'.

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

You make some good points, Christopher.

I want to emphasize that, like Chet, while I enjoy this kind of sprawling discussion and debate about ethics, nature, etc., my main concern is over self-righteousness and presenting personal opinions and preferences as Dharma or ultimate truth.

I respect vegetarians and vegans and really could care less what people think about the fact I eat meat. I have no guilt or anxiety about eating meat whatsoever, though I did in the past. I've worked through all that and I've yet to find any new information that has made me re-think my return to eating animal flesh. I don't know what the reason is, but I've always gravitated to meat--my grandmother tells me I begged to eat raw hamburger when I was 2 and through my middle and later childhood loved steak more than all other food. I've watched raw nature documentaries from an early age and the natural cycle of predation does not disturb me. To witness predators in action is sublime and I find the sight of raw meat appetizing. I find it beautiful and absolutely natural, if beautiful in the terrible and awe-inspiring way of nature. If I got to pick my own death when the time came, I could think of fewer more noble or sublime deaths than in the jaws of a bear or lion! And for crows to eat what's left. Better than to get shot for no reason and interred in an ecologically destructive manner.

I enjoy discussing this topic because I have thought and lived it so much. I feel deeply connected to the wild, to animals, to predatory species especially. But my concern as far as Dharma goes is that people get righteous about their moral stances and cling to those as Dharma. I did the same thing and it held me back in my practice; it made me suffer and kept me mired in short-sightedness. There is terrible guilt and anger that goes along with passionate belief in a moral position. Dharma is clear seeing, is recognition that we don't know what we think we know, and freedom to let go of our concepts. Moral self-righteousness goes in the exact opposite direction of truth and freedom. "Feelings aren't facts"--passion does not necessarily equal truth. This has been a hard lesson for me to learn, and one with which I continue to struggle.

I may be "wrong" about meat eating, animal rights, pets, etc. Maybe there is some cosmic moral code I'm violating and will wake up in hell when I'm dead. But I don't think that will happen. So in the meantime, "Carne diem"--"Meat the day!" :mrgreen:

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

I can understand what you guys are saying about others being cocky and self righteous, and I've been guilty of that more times than I care to count. And please don't take this the wrong way here, especially since you can probably find lots of examples where I've done this too, but there is the tendancy to push back when someone else is being cocky and self righteous. It's end result is almost always conflict. I know that sometimes a stern tone and raised voice can be an appropriate means, but I think we should all (myself SOOOOO included) remember that when we drop the ego, when we stand in the Dharma and look out, the time and manner in which to stand one's ground and become firm should be clear, and that we should try not to confuse that moment with our passions and anger rising because of someone who is simply misdirected in the Dharma.

P.S. This gentle reminder brought to you by numberless personal failures at keeping this in mind. But, hey, I'll just have to keep "practicing" :roll:

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

Originally Posted by JohnsonCM

I can understand what you guys are saying about others being cocky and self righteous, and I've been guilty of that more times than I care to count. And please don't take this the wrong way here, especially since you can probably find lots of examples where I've done this too, but there is the tendancy to push back when someone else is being cocky and self righteous. It's end result is almost always conflict. I know that sometimes a stern tone and raised voice can be an appropriate means, but I think we should all (myself SOOOOO included) remember that when we drop the ego, when we stand in the Dharma and look out, the time and manner in which to stand one's ground and become firm should be clear, and that we should try not to confuse that moment with our passions and anger rising because of someone who is simply misdirected in the Dharma.

P.S. This gentle reminder brought to you by numberless personal failures at keeping this in mind. But, hey, I'll just have to keep "practicing" :roll:

The main point here though is to not pretend the Dharma is on your side. The Dharma is not on your side - the Dharma is on 'no-one's' side (Yeah, double-meaning silliness, I know). I don't pretend that the Dharma is on my side - I have zero problem with people who can successfully be vegetarians choosing to live that way. But it is not necessarily the ethical high-ground that some people seem to make it out to be.

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

One of my ideals is the balanced state so I am a fan of yin/yang. Eating too much meat causes a tight mind and acid body, too little meat or protein causes a spaced out mind and alcaline body. The ideal is moderation and balance. Some days I don't eat meat so you can call me a vegetarian on those days One more point- in my lifetime the earth's population has increased from about 2B to almost 7B - I think I read somewhere that all the people who ever lived prior to 1900 totaled 2B - so I think population growth is the number 1 social problem.
/Rich

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

i don't neccessarily want to revive this "argument", but i noticed that there was more activity since my last post (i may go back to the other thread i started relating to this topic as well). anyway, i'm a bit embarrassed by some of what i said previously. not that i don't think/feel those things...i just expressed myself thoughtlessly. i was really having a rough time, not practicing, and just kinda fucked up... excuses, excuses.

Originally Posted by JohnsonCM

things that we should not eat, are made so we can't eat them. That's why we don't have rocks for dinner; and if we weren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

also, in my defense here, i never said shit about the buddha or the dharma in this thread (some of you seem to insinuate that - maybe i missed something).... though it does seem pertinent when we start talking big about "compassion"