To complete the picture, can you tell me what the composition of your starter is in terms of the percent flour and percent water, by weight? Usually, those are the amounts used for feeding/maintaining the starter. Also, can you tell me how you calculate the amount of sea salt and honey? That is, is it as a percent of the 1280 grams of flour or as a percent of the total flour, including the flour used in the starter? In the final analysis, it may not matter what the precise numbers are, but I like to see the entire picture.

If you would like to have an artisan pizza product, I am not sure that you need to use any sugar, whether table sugar (sucrose) or honey. Sugar is not an essential ingredient, and most artisan dough products do not call for it. For example, as noted recently in this thread, Brian Spangler does not use any sugar in any form in his dough. However, if you have been having problems with crust coloration (too light), then the use of sugar in some form, or the use of diastatic malt, might be appropriate. All sugars in a dough serve pretty much the same purposes, namely, to feed the yeast during fermentation, to add sweetness to the finished crust (if used at high enough levels to be detected on the palate), and to establish sufficient residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. Some sugars do this better and faster than others because they have more simple sugars, which are the only sugars that yeast uses as food. There are other sugars, called complex and very complex sugars, that have to be transformed to simple sugars before they can be used as food for the yeast. This can take a fair amount of time, usually many hours. As an example, sucrose (table sugar) is one of those sugars that has to go through such a time-consuming transformation. By contrast, honey includes 31% glucose and 38% fructose, which are both simple sugars, and 1% sucrose. So, for a short fermentation period, such as the last few hours in your case, honey might be a better choice than ordinary table sugar. Honey also contains more minerals than table sugar that can used as nutrients by the yeast and, depending on the type and color of the honey, it can also contribute to the flavor and coloration of the finished crust. There are also enzymes in honey that can help break down complex sugars in flour to simple sugars. Ordinarily, honey and table sugar can be used on an equal-weight basis provided that the formula water is reduced to reflect the 17% water content of the honey. For a fairly recent example of where I used honey in lieu of sugar in a short fermentation situation, see Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7821.msg68374.html#msg68374.

Diastatic malt is not a sugar. When added to the flour, either by the miller or by a baker, it provides additional amylase enzyme activity by acting on the damaged starch in the flour to increase the levels of sugars in the dough. Diastatic malt can also be added to flours that are unmalted. Most domestic flours are malted, although there are a few that are not. If you are having crust coloration problems as noted above and do not want to use table sugar or honey, using diastatic malt should result in higher sugar levels in the dough for all or most of the purposes noted above. For a good discussion on malts (diastatic and nodiastatic) in doughs, see this article: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8308.msg71658/topicseen.html#msg71658.

Using KASL in your dough formulation should result in increased chewiness in the finished crust, a bit more crust color and a bit more crust flavor. This is primarily due to the higher protein content of the KASL. You might also get a higher crust volume to the extent that the higher gluten levels in the KASL are adequately developed to better retain the gases of fermentation. Brian Spangler tried using high gluten flours for his dough formulation but found the crusts to be too chewy. That led him to use a weaker protein/gluten flour for his doughs.

As usual you are an incredible wealth of information. I'm not sure of the percentage weight of the starter. I am using Bill's method of using 3/4 cup of flour and 1/2 cup of water per feeding. I believe he indicates that equals around 54% flour and 46% water, but I have never weighed them. I calculated the honey and salt on the basis of the total flour exclusive of the starter. Should I be calculating the flour and water amounts of the starter into the formula as well?

I am not suggesting my crust coloration was bad, in fact it was pretty good. I am just more curious as to what factors play into it and to what extent. When you look at the extreme such as Pizzeria Mozza which has that dark, crunch crust (not what I'm looking for) and move down the scale to pictures of Chris Bianco's pizza they appear to have a much nicer degree of coloration to the crust. Brian Spangler's pizza seems more bread like than Bianco's. I am guessing Bianco uses a higher protein flour. I am just trying to figure out what variables play into it. Your information is very helpful in that regard. I have noticed that a lower temp oven temperature more in the 550-650 range and additional time allows for more crust color as well. I recall seeing Bianco reach into his oven, which I cannot do at the 750+ temps I am used to cooking at.

I will be working on a couple large batch's for July 4th (we have lots of people coming over) and will try to post some results. I am going to do some more experimenting. Also, in reading thru the links you posted on Brian Spangler, one indicated that after his long poolish rise he did a 24 cold rise as well. Interesting, perhaps I will try this as well. I am going to eliminate the honey/sugar from my testing.

My modus operandi is to start with a "total formula" that represents all of the ingredients and their total quantities, and to carve out the "preferment" portion. The "preferment" and the remaining ingredients are the "final mix". Ingredients like salt, sugar, oil, etc., are given with respect to the total formula flour. Otherwise, you will come up short on the amounts of those ingredients. This will usually not be a big issue if the amount of preferment is small, but if it is large, say, 40% of the total dough weight, then you might end up with insufficient salt, sugar, oil, etc.

The article on Brian Spangler's early dough work discussed his use of a combination of room temperature fermentation and a long cold fermentation. That combination perhaps chewed up too much time. With only a 24-hour room temperature fermentation, I suspect it is much easier to prepare and manage the dough to fit the hours of operation of his business.

Combining KABF and KAAP will produce a blend that has a protein content between the 12.7% of the KABF and the 11.7% of the KAAP. The precise value will depend on the amounts of the two flours used in the blend. You can use member November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to come up with different possible scenarios.

Pizza RusticaI wanted to pass on my experience with Giusto's Ultimate Performer Flour.I read in one of your post's that you were looking for a 00 high gluten flour.The Giusto's Ultimate Performer flour has a finer texture than any of the American flours I have used.The crust that I achieve from this flour is crispy with a tender interior.I think this could be classified as 00 high gluten flour.I cook my pizza in a altered gas oven that reaches 690 degrees my pies cook in about 4 minutes.I have been to Pizzeria Bianco and his pizza cooks in about 4 minutes.Chow,sabino

Wonderful looking pie. The flour purchased from Giusto's is marked 00. It is unbleached wheat flour. No additional markings on it. I am not sure of the protein level. Can you tell me if you're using a poolish and what procedure you are using. The cook time for PB confirms my suspicion that some of the crust color is from a long slow bake.

The 50 pounds of flour you mentioned converts to 50 x 16 x 28.35 = 22,680 grams. At 0.012%, the IDY comes to 2.7216 grams. That is equivalent to 0.096 ounces, or 0.90 t. So, it is just a bit more than 7/8 teaspoon IDY, which is easy enough to measure out. The major challenge is how do you disperse about 7/8 teaspoon of IDY within 50 pounds of flour?

A dough that ferments for almost 24 hours at room temperature is perhaps equivalent to several days of cold fermentation. Hence, a crust made from the 24-hour room-temperature fermented dough should have more and better crust flavors and a better texture than a 24-hour cold fermented dough. I think you can make a cold fermented dough that will yield a finished crust with characteristics similar to a crust made from a 24-hour room-temperature fermented dough, but I think you would have to use less yeast in the cold fermented dough, colder water, and over a week of cold fermentation, maybe even longer. I base this conclusion on the work I did on long, cold fermented doughs at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html.

Allow me to add also that this small percentage of IDY varies a lot when you consider the fermentation temperature. This 0.012% is for fermentation at 80-85F if I recall that correctly from your initial posts.

Because my room-temp. is 75 F, I increased the IDY to 0.02% to achieve a 24 hours fermentation. I just guessed a slightly more percentage and I hope it's really "slightly"

I'm just worried about the dough hydration cuz this is the only thing I forgot to reduce.

Saad,

I think you will be fairly close, but you should watch the dough if you are in a position to do so to assess whether the 0.02% quantity of IDY is in the ballpark. I think you can see why it is not common for professionals to use long room-temperature fermentations. For business purposes, I would think that you would need some kind of apparatus or a special room dedicated to the fermentation process that is temperature controlled. That makes me wonder how Brian Spangler ferments his doughs for Apizza Scholls. As I previously noted, I could have used my MR-138 ThermoKool unit but that would have taken the fun and excitement out of the exercise .

I will admit that the math when working with very small quantities of yeast can get a bit tricky, especially since we aren't used to working with very small fractions, like 1/128 teaspoon. In fact, the expanded dough calculating tool can't handle some of the numbers because of their small size and the way the tool rounds out numbers. For example, in the opening post, the yeast quantity is given as follows:

IDY (0.012%): 0.03 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.01 tsp | 0 tbsp

As you can see, the ounce measurement doesn't even register. In the above example, to get more precise numbers than the tool can produce, I brought out my calculator and took 0.012% of 268.87 grams (the weight of the formula flour), which is 0.0322644 grams, and converted that to 0.00138 ounces, or 0.0107105 teaspoons. That is a bit more than one half of a 1/64-teaspoon "drop" mini-measuring spoon. Without such a mini-measuring spoon, I would have had to take a 1/8-teaspoon measuring spoon of IDY and divided it into eight roughly equal "piles" and then divided one of those "piles" into roughly half.

I suspect that people who are not adept or comfortable with math at this level are not likely to try the dough formulation I posted. The alternative is to get a set of mini-measuring spoons or use the 1/8-teaspoon division method described above. As you can see, working with 50 pounds of flour is a lot easier than working with 269 grams of flour.

It was the perfect dough, but I damaged the pie while rotating it inside the oven

It took me awhile to figure out most of my problems with the dough. For months, each time I make a dough, it tears as I stretch it. When I increase hydration to make it more extensible, it also tears. When I decrease hydration, it becomes too elastic and resistant to stretching. Then it hit me to think how perfect are the doughs I make with low gluten flours, what's the difference. So I started studying my mixing technique. I looked at many videos of people used the KA mixer as mine is techincally the same but a different brand "Kenwood". It turns out that the KA's low speed is much faster than the one I have. So my conclusion was that my dough was always underkneaded. Now I need to increase the mixer's speed and time of kneading but this would also mean the dough will pick up in temperature resulting in the yeast getting activated regardless of how cold is the water that I used. The only solution that I thought of was using much less yeast so it won't matter much what temp the dough was exiting the mixer and let the dough ferment in room-temp so I could have it ready in shorter time than if I would cold-ferment it.

At least, now I know what my problem was all along with high-gluten flours. Following other's instructions and timings of mixing was a mistake without considering other variables but knowing how the look and feel of a well kneaded dough is definitely the way to go from now on for me.

Here is what I tried yesterday. I used about .065% IDY because I couldn't measure any less than that (1/8 t and ran my finger across the top to level it). I mixed for a little less than normal (10 minutes on #2) at 3pm and by this morning (18 hours) Ambient temps range from 71-77F. I think it was already over fermented (with a little bubble on the top). That is not to say it didn't make a very nice baguette this morning.

I can't help but wonder is there just a lot of wild yeast floating around our kitchens? I think I recall the last time I put out flour and water out in my kitchen, it was bubbling and seemingly alive after just one day.

Measuring out very small amounts of yeast is, at best, an imperfect exercise. Measuring spoons have different shapes and are made of different materials with different manufacturing methods and yeast can be fresh (i.e, bought recently) or old (I have used yeast that is several years old) and can be stored under varying environments, including the freezer. And no two people are likely to measure out yeast volumetrically in the identical fashion. You do the best you can and hope for the best. Even with mini-measuring spoons, which are a big help, there is still a fair amount of eye-balling involved, especially when you are trying to split one of the mini-measuring spoons into another fraction (e.g., from 1/64 t. to 1/128 t.). And you don't dare sneeze.

Peter

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Infoodel

To obtain v. small amounts of yeast, you can dissolve IDY in room temperature water and use a fraction of the 'yeast water' in mixing the dough. Tried this a few days ago (this is a technique Craig Ponsford of BBGA uses) and it worked a treat. No problems with a 20 hour fermentation. I'm surprised to read about 'shocking the yeast' with cold water - I can't say that has ever been a problem that I've encountered except possibly when using ADY.If you find the dough lacks strength during the long ferment, rather than 'rekneading the dough', I'd recommend a simple stretch-and-fold at regular intervals and perhaps less kneading during the mixing stage. Yes, this will develop the gluten in a different way...and kind of depends on the dough formula (esp. hydration).

First, with respect to the method you mentioned to measure out small amounts of yeast, can you tell me how you would do it for, say, 1/128 teaspoon of IDY? I thought to do something similar by "diluting" a larger amount of yeast in a measured quantity of flour, as is sometimes done with ascorbic acid, which is used in doughs in parts per million, but I did not want the moisture in the flour (which can range from about 10-15.5%), to start the IDY rehydration process (I was thinking of making a fairly large supply and keeping it on hand in my refrigerator for future use). I didn't go beyond the thinking stage on this, since, as mentioned earlier, I have mini-measuring spoons to do direct measurements. Nonetheless, an alternative solution may be useful for those who, like Patrick, do not have or want to invest in a set of mini-measuring spoons.

Second, with respect to shocking yeast with cold water, I am referring to adding yeast directly to the cold water, such as water cold right out of the refrigerator or even ice cold water. Even though modern strains of yeast have been engineered to have greater resistance to cold water, as is noted, for example, at the middle of the article on yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8912.0.html, I am not aware of any yeast producer that recommends that any yeast be added directly to cold water. Rather, the recommended method is to add the yeast, say, IDY, to the flour and then add the cold water. In this case, the flour buffers the yeast from the effects of the cold water. Even better is to let the yeast sit in the flour for a while before adding the cold water to allow the yeast to start to be activated by the moisture in the flour. On those occasions where it is desirable or necessary to activate IDY directly in water, for example, when the mix time is to be very short (or for any other reason), the prevailing advice is to use water at 95 degrees F (35 degrees C), as noted, for example, by Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50956#50956. I believe that is the same temperature he recommends for fresh (compressed) yeast; for ADY, he recommends about 105 degrees F (about 40.6 degrees C).

Third, I agree that using the stretch-and-fold method is a good way of dealing with a dough that has risen substantially during a long room-temperature fermentation. Although I personally try to avoid or minimize using most techniques that are unique to bread dough making when making pizza dough, I did use the stretch-and-fold method when I attempted to create a clone of Brian Spangler's high-hydration pizza dough as described earlier in this thread. It is an effective technique for that application.

Infoodel

First, with respect to the method you mentioned to measure out small amounts of yeast, can you tell me how you would do it for, say, 1/128 teaspoon of IDY?"

Hmm for 1/128 - I'm guessing a 1/4 tsp IDY dissolved in 512ml water - and then use 16ml in the final dough.

Quote

Second, with respect to shocking yeast with cold water, I am referring to adding yeast directly to the cold water, such as water cold right out of the refrigerator or even ice cold water. Even though modern strains of yeast have been engineered to have greater resistance to cold water, as is noted, for example, at the middle of the article on yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8912.0.html, I am not aware of any yeast producer that recommends that any yeast be added directly to cold water. Rather, the recommended method is to add the yeast, say, IDY, to the flour and then add the cold water. In this case, the flour buffers the yeast from the effects of the cold water. Even better is to let the yeast sit in the flour for a while before adding the cold water to allow the yeast to start to be activated by the moisture in the flour. On those occasions where it is desirable or necessary to activate IDY directly in water, for example, when the mix time is to be very short (or for any other reason), the prevailing advice is to use water at 95 degrees F (35 degrees C), as noted, for example, by Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50956#50956. I believe that is the same temperature he recommends for fresh (compressed) yeast; for ADY, he recommends about 105 degrees F (about 40.6 degrees C).

Hmm for 1/128 - I'm guessing a 1/4 tsp IDY dissolved in 512ml water - and then use 16ml in the final dough.Cool, thanks for this info!

Toby,

I assume that you used 512 ml in order to get a final quantity, 16 ml (512/32 = 16), that is a workable one using most measuring cups. However, when I looked at the ml markings on my one-cup measuring cup, the smallest value shown is 50 ml. Also, the water used to rehydate the IDY has to be around 95 degrees F, and most of the water/IDY mixture will be thrown away (or used for something else) if it is desired to use a much lower water temperature (cold or ice cold water) to slow down a room-temperature fermentation. The hydration of the dough formulation will also have to be reduced to compensate for the roughly 16 ml of water. All of this math may be too challenging for some of our members. As careful as I am with my numbers, I still make math errors. So, I personally would rather spring for the mini-measuring spoons . However, I appreciate your solution and will keep it in mind.

Good point. You are correct in that 16 ml of water weighs 16 grams. I was thinking more of those who may not have scales. But if they have scales, they can use them to weigh out 16 grams as well as the formula water less the 16 grams. Each different amount of yeast will require recalculation, however.

Peter

« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 01:51:04 PM by Pete-zza »

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Infoodel

Sorry I should have stated it in weight - that would have made it more obvious. but yes 1 litre = 1 kg.I made the mistake of assuming one has access to an electronic scale (or triple beam scale). Regarding factoring the weight of the yeast in...the weight of a 1/4 tsp of yeast is minimal and one assumes it to be virtually nil...this approximation holds whether mixing in water or flour.

I finally tried the 24 hour room temp ferment. I had been using the 3-4 day cold ferment with satisfactory results, but wanted to give this a shot as well. I made several changes at once, used a new flour that I had not tried before called Dakota Mill high protein bread flour( I do not have the specifics of the flour) I also used the Pellegrino sparkling spring water that I de-carbonated. The dough was prepared according to Varasano's kitchen-aid method. I do a 20 minute autolyse with 75% of the flour and all of the water and all of the starter(I used my Ischia), then a 5 minute knead, followed by a 3 minute knead where I add the final 25% of flour, the salt and the sugar. I omitted the IDY altogether for this batch. I am using a Hobart(Kitchen Aid mixer) with a regular hook. My dough ingredients are as follows:

I do seem to be using quite a large ball for my skins, but I do make the pizza's quite large, and enjoy the thick rim myself.

The balls were placed on a flour sack towel on top of a large cookie sheet and then covered with saran wrap to avoid skinning over. Placed in my basement, and kept at a temp between 62 and 64. I have never used a starter percentage as low as this before, and did miss some of the flavor I had been achieving with the longer cold ferments. I had a few friends over, and they were extremely impressed with the pizza. This batch was also cooked with the new "Old Stone Oven" rectangle stone in my electric oven at 550, cook time was 7 minutes, crust was quite crispy at the rim, might need to back the cook time down to 5 or 6 minutes and finish the top on a high rack??? All in all, I was pleased with the results, and will try again. wish I had some pics for you, but camera was dead to the world. Oh, I made a plain pepperoni, using Stella whole milk mozzarella, a ham, pineapple and bacon with the same stella cheese, and a margarita with a Bel Giosio fresh mozzarella ball. My sauce is simple(though some may argue that), a can of Cento DOP San Marzano's with the seeds rinsed out of them, placed into a hand processor with approximately heaping 1/2 tsp each of basil and marjoram, 1/8 to 1/4 tsp of garlic powder, a few pinches of onion powder, coarse ground sea salt, and a generous squirt of honey.

Actually I called there today, the gentleman I spoke to told me that the "premium bread" flour I used was at 13 %, and their pizza/tortilla flour was between 13 and 13.5%. On a side note, I purchased 6 lbs of Sir Lancelot online today. Next on the list is some Caputo as my LBE is nearing completion. I'd hate to post pics right now, as I used an old ugly weber kettle grill, and my heat source is a 250,000 BTU construction heater, a bit of overkill, but definitely able to dial it back to proper temps. just need a good IR thermometer to get started.