General purpose, I'm not a big PC gamer, because I'm too broke, but I want to, at least, be able to run CivBeyond Earth, Saints Row IV and Skyrim, and if I can coast on the system for a couple years worth of occasionally checking out stuff that comes out, that'd be nice._________________

Dean, on Paranoia wrote:

The book is a hardbound liars paradox.

Winnah wrote:

No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

FrankTrollman wrote:

In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

At least at the price point you're looking at, you might be buying parts so dated/risky you're throwing money away --- I'd particularly try to check on that power supply. If you could save up 200$ more, you could get something that would last a lot longer and perform a lot better.

The graphics card you are buying is basically on par with integrated graphics. You could drop the graphics card and get an I3-4150 (a substantially better processor) and run Skyrim and Civ4 (Saints Row says it requires a quad core processor, which I'm not sure exactly why, but you might be able to make it work: edit: read more carefully: 3.0+ GHz Dual Core CPU, so you're probably good ) on the integrated graphics, then save up ~150$ later and put in a decent graphics card.

"Good for its cost" is a really loaded question when you're swimming on that end of the budget pool. I'd expect that setup to accomplish what you're setting out to do, but it's hard to be super excited about it given that manufacturers purposely do everything in their power to try and get you to spend twice as much in exchange for serious performance upgrades._________________bears fall, everyone dies

That processor is rated better (possibly the best) for gaming in that price range for CPUs. It has two less cores, granted, but games that do hyperthreading well are few. I know Skyrim only uses two for example (unless you use some unstable .ini tweaks, success apparently varying on who fucking knows).

This does mean that your build might perform slightly better at multi-tasking when running multiple single-core apps (or having lots of tabs open, or whatever).

The difference is about $15.

Personally, Id recommend you spend an extra $50 to $100 to give yourself something that would be more readily upgrade-able, so you could recoup some of the value of your parts when you have more cash.

I built this PC for my brother for Christmas (group gift) and it can handle pretty much any current game at 1080p at respectable settings, my PC is very similar to it.

For that $50 to $100 extra you could build a $310-$350 PC that could be pretty easily upgraded later into something similar or better (reselling components to offset loss).

Edit: Actually, I missed that bit about the other processor and board, am I correct in assuming that you'd be getting those components for free? If so thats not a bad deal working with your price range, and you should be able to use that board/cpu together as-is, and you could instead invest in other parts. If that's true it would let you put about $60 into a better video card and hit the same price point.

Double Edit: Also, using this wireless card instead of the USB one would save you another $20

Last edited by Sigil on Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:43 am; edited 3 times in total

Yeah, the cpu/board I'm looking at are the ones in the computer I'm currently using (just in a tiny case)

So, ok, I should be more detailed.

For the last four years, I've been using this prebuilt with this video card put in after I got Civ V.

The mo'board died, but so far as I know, the rest is fine. I'm going to use that case, optical drive, and (hopefully) power supply, but I'd been wanting to upgrade the CPU and video card for a while anyway.

Since that died, I've been making do with this, given by a friend who recently bought a new computer. This has the CPU/motherboard that I'm considering using instead of buying new, so those would be free._________________

Dean, on Paranoia wrote:

The book is a hardbound liars paradox.

Winnah wrote:

No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

FrankTrollman wrote:

In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

The R7 250x seems to be the best deal right at the $100 mark, and is a pretty decent upgrade over what you had selected before, the overall cost is less than $200 with the free mobo/cpu. You should probably be able to play most games coming out on low/medium settings at 1080p.

Your upgrade path would be CPU/MOBO > RAM > Video Card in that order.

Edit: Do note that on the day you order your parts, you should recheck prices, there are a few variants for the 250x that cost around the same price and they can fluctuate daily. Also be sure to factor in shipping, I've found newegg will often be cheaper if you count shipping costs for example.

Last edited by Sigil on Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:19 am; edited 1 time in total

Oh, I should also say, the reason I was going to get a usb wi fi adapter is because my tower is in a corner under my desk, and even with my current adapter using cables to put it near my door, I have a good bit of trouble with wifi reliability. I doubt a closed in corner would do it any favours.

I got a total of $200 for Christmas to replace my computer, and if I'm patient, rebates extend that a bit, and I can put some unemployment into the fund as well. $50 of that is a Frys gift card, so it behooves me to get at least some things there. Right now, Frys has AMD Athlon 5150 quad core processors for $34, so there's that possibility as well, if those are decent. Of course that requires a different Mo'board, I'm sure._________________

Dean, on Paranoia wrote:

The book is a hardbound liars paradox.

Winnah wrote:

No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

FrankTrollman wrote:

In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

I will warn you that the Netgear wireless USB adaptor driver is a horrible piece of shit that will crash itself and possibly your system if you are trying to do something memory intensive like run a video game. It is good that you have presently selected another manufacturer. Make absolutely sure you do not get a Netgear one just because it happens to be available in a physical store._________________

DSMatticus wrote:

It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

You should be all over Meikle's offer, btw, even if you have to rethink your case/psu/mobo situation a smidge. Your future gaming build options become a lot simpler if you bite the bullet and get a case roomy enough to house full size PCIe cards anyway. I was weighing whether or not to offer you my good ol' warhorse Radeon 4870* since in terms of pure ponies it's still a surprisingly competent card, but a 550 Ti is in a similar weight class but is a lot more modern--you get better shader support and likely less power draw and all that other good stuff.

*"Considering" mostly because I'm not exactly sure where it is right now._________________bears fall, everyone dies

Last edited by Whipstitch on Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total

Yeah, I was looking through options, and it's tough to beat that offer. I'm doing up another build using a rough approximation of Meikle's card, and I think it's looking pretty good.

Here's the build I'm looking at, due to the wattage estimate, I'm having to buy a psu (as the one from my dead tower is only 300W), but I'm not particularly fussed about that. With Meikle's gpu, I can still make this for about $200._________________

Dean, on Paranoia wrote:

The book is a hardbound liars paradox.

Winnah wrote:

No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

FrankTrollman wrote:

In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

So what about building a laptop? I want to have a badass laptop rig that can competently play games and can be upgraded easily enough. My constraints basically are:

<$600 spent, total.

Weight and size isn't a huge concern; something of up to 12 or even 14 lbs. is fine.

Battery life isn't a huge concern. If it can work unplugged at a decent load (light turned one step above off, network card, browser + flash games, WinAmp) for 150 or even 120 minutes that's fine.

It doesn't have to run Windows (though it'd be nice) but it at least needs to be able to run Linux. No MacOSX stuff, though I figure that it'd break the budget constraint stuff anyway.

Readily swappable network, graphics, and memory card. Not like plug-and-play, but more like unscrewing the case, releasing snaps, and wiggling cards out of slots and putting it back together. No soldering or wiresplicing if I want to have new CPU components.

Right now I own a decent Samsung laptop that I bought in 2010 for around $500 at Best Buy; it has 8 GB Ram, 2.50 Ghz processor, and 700 GB of storage. It also weighs about 8 pounds. I've been very pleased with it so far, but the fixed graphics card has been really bugging me.

About what can I expect, given that?_________________

Josh Kablack wrote:

Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

First, a serious question. Let's say your old laptop was capable of accepting a graphics card switch and was otherwise exactly the same. How much money do you spend upgrading it and how long do you anticipate using it before the six-year-old processor and accumulated wear-and-tear become untenable? If this is going to be an acceptable purchase strategy for you, it needs to be good enough to make up for the short-term benefit of choosing from integrated models, and the long-term benefit of getting to buy a totally new system sooner by saving money on marginal upgrades.

Also: You want to uncap the engineering constraints that define portable machines. Even if you really do think that extra heat, noise, weight, size, and reliance on electrical outlets won't result in an inferior portable computing experience, the overwhelming rest of the consumer market seems to have a consensus that it does. In my opinion, they're right, and I don't know if I really believe that you appreciate how badly you'll be missing out. But either way, you won't be buying with the benefits of economies of scale, nor will you have the same wealth of reliable reviews to aid your decision._________________This signature is here just so you don't otherwise mistake the last sentence of my post for one.

To answer your first question: that's actually a pretty good point. I've owned laptops since 2004 and I generally switch to a newer one after 3.5-4 years of ownership. I've had my current one for 2.5 years. I just plain might not hang onto these things long enough for it to matter. I suppose it depends on the performance gap between an off-the-shelf integrated graphics card compared to one I can get four years later and/or an above-average custom graphics card I can get two years after the purchase. Then again, the most complicated things I routinely run are a PS2 Emulator and Endless Legend and they perform fine if I close most of my other programs first. However, if someone makes a decent 7th generation console emulator then I'm going to want to run that. I know that they haven't and probably won't even start to approach acceptable performance for about five years, but I totally want to hit that shit as ASAP. On the whole, I'm not sure about how much I really need to be able to swap in new off-the-shelf components.

What's your opinion? Should I, given my price constraints, just go with Intel GPU or whatever and accept the hit to my performance? I mean, the laptop I have right now ain't bad for my usage, but I want to have something noticeably (if unimportantly) better because I'm a stupid-ass American consumerist.

Eikre wrote:

Even if you really do think that extra heat, noise, weight, size, and reliance on electrical outlets won't result in an inferior portable computing experience, the overwhelming rest of the consumer market seems to have a consensus that it does.

This one I'm a lot more sure about. I don't really use laptops in restaurants and cafes and malls and doctor offices and bus stops and such. I treat my laptop as a desktop that I can take to my relatives' houses, the university, my workplace, and to kill a few hours while I'm on the train or plane and I've been doing this for over 10 years -- my current laptop, a Samsung Notebook, weighs 5 pounds less and has a much better battery (4 hours with everything turned down/off except the network versus 30 minutes for that last piece of crap) and I really don't notice the huge leap in portability except when I'm trying to hastily use it at a student desk._________________

Josh Kablack wrote:

Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total

A while back (years ago) I was looking into building a computer in a (large-ish) briefcase. If you're really just looking for a portable desktop, you can drop the battery entirely and use desktop parts but have something you can carry inside in one trip. Ventilation is still something you have to figure out, but you have way more options than if you're trying to use laptop parts.

If that's something that would work for you, you don't have to worry about parts other than the physical anchoring to the case and the monitor. Unless I'm missing something huge - like I said, it's been years.

So, all told, I'm looking at a budget of ~$325-350, but this seems pretty solid for my not-bleeding-edge gaming and multitasking needs. And is under budget, which is nice, as it means I can look into maybe replacing my phone too.

Miekle, I'd love to use that card you offered. PM me if you're still willing to give it, and we'll sort out the sending.
On the subject of portable computers, years ago when I had a MaximumPC subscription and case mods were the super popular thing (as well as LAN parties), the thing I wanted to do was build a gaming computer on a robotic scarab beetle case that could actually walk around. (not that I ever got invited to LAN parties...).

Still would be cool, might make something like that some day. Hell, now with rfid and such, I could probably actually program the thing to follow me around pretty easily._________________

Dean, on Paranoia wrote:

The book is a hardbound liars paradox.

Winnah wrote:

No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

FrankTrollman wrote:

In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

What's your opinion? Should I, given my price constraints, just go with Intel GPU or whatever and accept the hit to my performance? I mean, the laptop I have right now ain't bad for my usage, but I want to have something noticeably (if unimportantly) better because I'm a stupid-ass American consumerist.

Oh you don't have to settle for an Intel GPU, that's not what I'm saying. You can and probably should have a GeForce or Radeon. It'll still be inseparably affixed to the logic board, though.

...I guess I didn't articulate this before, but it's not so much "oh a standalone graphics card is big and expensive," it's, "standalone graphics cards aren't really even a thing at all."

Desktop computers have PCI-X slots that are appropriate for a wide variety of expansion cards, graphics cards included. The laptop version of the standard, MiniPCI-X, assumes an itty bitty card with very little heat output, which won't require a fan. The PCI-X bus is still used to connect graphics card to the CPU in a laptop, but there isn't a slot that connects the two of them, it's hardwired.

Graphics card manufacturers just sell the chips; downstream manufactures are responsible for implementing a consumer-friendly product. A company like EVGA will put it on a card that conforms to the industry-wide desktop standard for you, but laptop manufactures just do whatever. They might be kind enough to put it on a dedicated daughter-board, but that's usually so that you can service a broken part with a replacement part for the same model of computer. If an upgrade path is intentional, it's still proprietary. Lenovos have "Ultrabays," for example, which can hold a second copy of the card that you already have. And while SLI is certainly better than just one card, I can't say I'm super impressed.

Speaking of Lenovos, looks like they have a sale going on. I guess you could do a y40 for $670? Nothing you don't need, a Haswell i5, and a Radeon card*. Idk, I guess I might look at some refurbs or whatever and see if there's anything obviously better or under-budget for you but I don't know how much time I feel like spending on doing research just for this right now.

The laptop purchase didn't happen. I'm going to wait for another two years before I buy one. I'm honestly pretty happy with what I have right now and I can put up with having a computer whose top-end performance is running Pcsx2 at almost-perfect speed.

In the meantime... let's talk desktops. I'm looking to spend in the 950-1200 USD price range. AMD or Intel is fine. I don't mind spending half or even 3/4ths of that on the graphics card. Anything less than 16GB RAM, no thanks. I want something that's readily upgradeable. I want an internal optical drive, but Blu Ray can go fuck itself. I'm willing to skimp on the boot disk, though I'd prefer a SSD. A processor that can't do at least 3.5GHZ can go fuck itself. I'm not picky on storage drive; something that's just 750GB or even 600 GB I can tolerate. My feelings on the heat sink is 'better safe than sorry'. Hell, if it's not too expensive I'm willing to spring for liquid cooling. I also have the mentality of a raccoon or a baby or a 4E D&D player so a case that's really space-age and slick and glowy is a plus, but something that's easy to work in will easily top it. I'm willing to set aside some money for an internal LED array. I don't give a shit about hyperthreading, but if you're able to recommend a card that can do the job for <30$ more than without then fine.

Bottom Line, I'm looking for something that will look nice in 1080p and has room to grow for the GPU and memory. I want something a wee bit more powerful performance-wise than a typical but unremarkable gaming rig you'd give to someone who doesn't want to mess with overclocking and configuration settings and whatnot.

Can you help a brotherman out, TGD?

EDIT: So something like http://pcpartpicker.com/p/XRsm23, with the relevant YouTube link of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng2IIdmiU9I. That's... pretty close to what I want, though I was thinking 2x8 GB RAM and something slightly more powerful for the CPU. It was $850 half of a year ago. Don't worry about OS, I have a thing. If you can recommend any wicked sweet case mods, this would be the time to do so._________________

Josh Kablack wrote:

Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:08 am; edited 2 times in total

Erm . . Hyperthreading is something your CPU does. Not a card . .
And most CPUs will do that nowadays.

RAM . . 8 gigs should do you well enough usually. There's precious little that will actually make use of more than that in terms of software. On the other hand, RAM can only be replaced by more RAM, so i can kind of see where you are coming from with that . .

Same goes for hyperthreading actually, because most software STILL is not optimized to make use of multiple cores. Having less cores with more GHz is generally still preferable to having more cores with less GHz.
Luckily todays CPUs can kinda sorta combine the two in a bastardized but kinda working sort of way due to smart clocking of the cores.

SSDs have dropped quite considerably in price, and are so nice to have as the OS drive that i seriously would never recommend not getting one.
Even if you only have one mounting point for storage, get an HDD and an SDD and simply have the SDD dangle around on the cables in the case or stick it to the case using sticky tape or something . .

Same for HDD. They have become so laughably cheap that i look at your 500 to 600 GB and think that getting such an HDD may actually be more expensive than getting a 1 or 2 TB one nowadays . . Seriously, i just bought an 8TB HDD for 250 Bucks . .

As for optical drive: why no BluRay drive?
Better to have and not need than to need and not have right?
And DRIVES are cheap as well. The writers are still a bit more expensive, but nobody really needs one of these anyway. Empty BluRay Discs are still on the expensive side for media as well in my opinion.

Liquid Cooling . . All in One or are you talking full blown system with dedicated parts? Because these START OUT at about 200 bucks for a useable system and can well tripple that for a good system, judging from some postings on tech boards i have read over the last few months . .
AIO is generally frowned upon for reaons i can not readily discern.
But they are usually still more expensive than a normal tower cooler with good fans and if you have a big enough case, then they are not really needed either. The thing that AIO does is moving heat from point a to point b and there getting rid of it, as opposed to trying to get rid of the heat just centimeters above where it is created . .

Case/PSU?

GPU . . i'd recommend the nVidia GTX960 for egg sample, if you don't care that 512 Megs of the 4096 Megs of GDDR 3 VRAM are connected way slower than the rest . ._________________Welcome, to IronHell.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

Shrapnel wrote:

TFwiki wrote:

Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

http://pcpartpicker.com/guide/tYgXsY/great-gaming-build
with slight modifications:
You can reduce price slightly by going locked version of I5-4690, cheaper or stock CPU cooler, and locked MOBO. Another stick of ram is 50$ over the 960$ they're starting at, so you're looking at a total of 1000$ or so.

An internal CD drive is 20$. Buying 1TB is more or less the cheapest at the moment. That gets you a SSD for the boot drive.

Your cabling sucks as much as mine, and i have a case with space for hidden cabling XD ^^_________________Welcome, to IronHell.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

Shrapnel wrote:

TFwiki wrote:

Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.