Atheist Feelings on Gun Control in the U.S - Atheist Nexus2015-03-31T18:11:17Zhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/atheist-feelings-on-gun-control-in-the-u-s?feed=yes&xn_auth=noFact-Checking the NRA's Wayne…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-21:2182797:Comment:21683692013-02-21T19:11:19.130Ztom sarbeckhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/TomSarbeck
<p>Fact-Checking the NRA's Wayne LaPierre (in an email from Politi-Fact, a project of the St. Petersburg, Florida, Times):</p>
<p>"After a quiet period following the shootings in Newtown, Conn., the National Rifle Association has been making a case for armed guards at schools and other measures rather than restrictions on guns.<br></br><br></br>"We've fact-checked many claims about gun control -- you can find them on our guns subject page -- and this week checked three that Wayne LaPierre, the group's…</p>
<p>Fact-Checking the NRA's Wayne LaPierre (in an email from Politi-Fact, a project of the St. Petersburg, Florida, Times):</p>
<p>"After a quiet period following the shootings in Newtown, Conn., the National Rifle Association has been making a case for armed guards at schools and other measures rather than restrictions on guns.<br/><br/>"We've fact-checked many claims about gun control -- you can find them on our guns subject page -- and this week checked three that Wayne LaPierre, the group's executive vice president, made in an op-ed in the Daily Caller:<br/><br/>"To make the case that major cities were unsafe, LaPierre made a claim we've checked many times, that Phoenix "is already one of the kidnapping capitals of the world." We rated that False.<br/><br/>"He said President Barack Obama " flagrantly defies the 2006 federal law ordering the construction of a secure border fence along the entire Mexican border." We rated that Mostly False.<br/><br/>"LaPierre claimed that after Hurricane Sandy, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg "refused to allow the National Guard into the city to restore civil order because Guardsmen carry guns!" That earned a Mostly False."<br/><br/>(I'm one of the NRA's members who say LaPierre doesn't speak for me, and what he's been saying bothers me a lot.)</p>
<p></p> I'm a teacher (University) my…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-08:2182797:Comment:21598072013-02-08T20:14:36.097ZScott Cookhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/ScottCook
<p>I'm a teacher (University) myself and, although there are strict regulations regarding the carry of concealed weapons on school campuses,... I carry. My students are under my care when they're in my classroom.</p>
<p>I'm a teacher (University) myself and, although there are strict regulations regarding the carry of concealed weapons on school campuses,... I carry. My students are under my care when they're in my classroom.</p> Seems to me that two gun toti…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-07:2182797:Comment:21593662013-02-07T22:12:08.655ZJim DePaulohttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/carver
<p>Seems to me that two gun toting teenagers entering a school might be considered <span> "inappropriate behavior". The police officers weren't there to prevent wedgies and food fights. They were armed and legally allowed to use deadly force if life is in jeopardy. </span></p>
<p>Seems to me that two gun toting teenagers entering a school might be considered <span> "inappropriate behavior". The police officers weren't there to prevent wedgies and food fights. They were armed and legally allowed to use deadly force if life is in jeopardy. </span></p> responding to Tom;
"LaPierre'…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-05:2182797:Comment:21581272013-02-05T17:11:17.047ZAsa Watcherhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/AsaWatcher
<p>responding to Tom;</p>
<p><em>"LaPierre's remedy--putting armed guards in every school, in numbers commensurate with the number of doors from the grounds into classrooms--is irresponsible in the extreme."</em></p>
<p>Oh forget LaPierre.</p>
<p>Your premiss that an armed guard has to be stationed at every door is a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">false</span> premiss. Doors can be locked. Doors can be secured. There is no reason why more than one entrance to the school needs to be…</p>
<p>responding to Tom;</p>
<p><em>"LaPierre's remedy--putting armed guards in every school, in numbers commensurate with the number of doors from the grounds into classrooms--is irresponsible in the extreme."</em></p>
<p>Oh forget LaPierre.</p>
<p>Your premiss that an armed guard has to be stationed at every door is a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">false</span> premiss. Doors can be locked. Doors can be secured. There is no reason why more than one entrance to the school needs to be provided while children are in attendance.</p>
<p></p>
<p><em>"He can deny INTENDING to boost gun sales."</em></p>
<p>I am not privy to LaPierre’s intentions, and couldn't care less about them.</p>
<p><em>"He can deny INTENDING to get more unemployed people into jobs--as guards, their trainers, their managers and support staff."</em></p>
<p>When did jobs creation become a bad thing?</p>
<p><em>"He can deny INTENDING to drive already strapped school districts into bankruptcy."</em></p>
<p>There is <span style="text-decoration: underline;">no</span> reason that schools should foot the bill to counter a social problem not created by the school. What makes you think that only schools should pay for armed guards?</p>
<p><em>"He cannot believably deny those and other EFFECTS."</em></p>
<p>O.K. Again, who cares what LaPierre believes?</p>
<p>"<em>So how do we avoid requiring teachers and students to make flight-or-fight decisions?</em></p>
<p><em>Saying we should simply keep people with guns out of public schools has at least two flaws:</em></p>
<p><em>1. It's not a simple task," </em></p>
<p>But it <strong>IS</strong> simple, as simple as it is keeping people with guns off airplanes and out of other government buildings like we are doing <span style="text-decoration: underline;">now</span>. How is it any <span style="text-decoration: underline;">less</span> simple??</p>
<p><em>"and</em></p>
<p><em>2. People who don't have to propose remedies can say "We should....", while people who propose remedies ask "How do we...?"</em></p>
<p><em>In short, the use in this context of the words "should" or "simply" is immature."</em></p>
<p>I don’t understand your obsession with accusing other people of being “immature” any more than I understand your above sentence. Please explain how a proposed remedy is asking “How do we...?” and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> “Here is how...”</p>
<p></p>
<p>The rest of your post still lacks a solution to the immediate problem of armed individuals accessing our schools.</p>
<p>The way voters vote is a separate issue, and is only <span style="text-decoration: underline;">one</span> of the reasons we have the continuing problem of gun violence. There’s money and influence, political pressures, and campaign laws (Citizens United) to say nothing of the entrenched gun culture that has evolved along with the portability of the tools of slaughter.</p>
<p>But “<em>right voting</em>” won’t solve the problem we have <span style="text-decoration: underline;">right now</span>. </p> LaPierre's remedy--putting ar…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-05:2182797:Comment:21576172013-02-05T00:32:14.133Ztom sarbeckhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/TomSarbeck
<p>LaPierre's remedy--putting armed guards in every school, in numbers commensurate with the number of doors from the grounds into classrooms--is irresponsible in the extreme.</p>
<p>He can deny INTENDING to boost gun sales.</p>
<p>He can deny INTENDING to get more unemployed people into jobs--as guards, their trainers, their managers and support staff.</p>
<p>He can deny INTENDING to drive already strapped school districts into bankruptcy.</p>
<p>He cannot believably deny those and other…</p>
<p>LaPierre's remedy--putting armed guards in every school, in numbers commensurate with the number of doors from the grounds into classrooms--is irresponsible in the extreme.</p>
<p>He can deny INTENDING to boost gun sales.</p>
<p>He can deny INTENDING to get more unemployed people into jobs--as guards, their trainers, their managers and support staff.</p>
<p>He can deny INTENDING to drive already strapped school districts into bankruptcy.</p>
<p>He cannot believably deny those and other EFFECTS.</p>
<p></p>
<p>So how do we avoid requiring teachers and students to make flight-or-fight decisions?</p>
<p>Saying we should simply keep people with guns out of public schools has at least two flaws:</p>
<p>1. It's not a simple task, and</p>
<p>2. People who don't have to propose remedies can say "We should....", while people who propose remedies ask "How do we...?"</p>
<p>In short, the use in this context of the words "should" or "simply" is immature.</p>
<p>A widely-known former speaker of the California Assembly, upon retiring, said his position required child care training and skills.</p>
<p>That training and those skills (including the ability to set aside emotional responses) are required of people who would remedy America's problem with guns, which is a large part of America's problem with violence.</p>
<p>We know Americans want universal background checks, yet our elected problem solvers fear taking the required action.</p>
<p>They fear they might lose when they next run for re-election.</p>
<p>In about half of the 50 states, registered voters can propose legislation and enact it.</p>
<p>If they bite off too large a part of the problem they will fail.</p>
<p>It's time for voters to act.</p>
<p></p> The U.S. GNP in 2012 is estim…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-04:2182797:Comment:21575112013-02-04T19:26:21.446ZAsa Watcherhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/AsaWatcher
<p>The U.S. GNP in 2012 is estimated to be $17 trillion.</p>
<p>America’s GNP in just one year is more than the entire national debt accumulated over all the years (last year alone by $1 trillion). </p>
<p>This doesn’t begin to take into account the profit on stocks, interest on savings etc.</p>
<p>If we collected one tenth of one cent on every Wall Street stock transaction and applied just <span style="text-decoration: underline;">that</span> revenue to…</p>
<p>The U.S. GNP in 2012 is estimated to be $17 trillion.</p>
<p>America’s GNP in just one year is more than the entire national debt accumulated over all the years (last year alone by $1 trillion). </p>
<p>This doesn’t begin to take into account the profit on stocks, interest on savings etc.</p>
<p>If we collected one tenth of one cent on every Wall Street stock transaction and applied just <span style="text-decoration: underline;">that</span> revenue to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">just</span> the national debt, we could pay it off in less than 10 years. (sooner many experts contend)</p>
<p>I hope someone as obviously intelligent as yourself hasn’t fallen victim of the myth that somehow America is in desperate financial straits because we’ve borrowed some money, which the country could easily pay back. Assets are important because they assure repayment, not that they can simply be seized in lieu of repayment. That is why the U.S. can borrow so easily.</p>
<p>For example, if you make $50,000 a year, should you not be allowed to borrow $150,000 to buy a home because your debt would be three times what you make in a year?</p>
<p>Now, don’t get me wrong. We should work toward the common sense idea that a balanced budget be a goal, and the necessity of servicing debt is part of balancing the budget. But the national debt is far from a crisis.</p>
<p>And it certainly is not a factor when it comes to protecting our children or the rest of us from gunners in our public places.</p>
<p>------</p>
<p>(Not to quibble, but my “asking” was indeed an implication.</p>
<p>My question was an inquiry as to what <span style="text-decoration: underline;">you</span> thought my implication might be. And yes, I <span style="text-decoration: underline;">should</span> have instead asked what you thought I’d be implying were I to ask: “Are you an Idiot”. At that point I didn’t really care what you inferred. </p>
<p>And what should <span style="text-decoration: underline;">I</span> have inferred about what <span style="text-decoration: underline;">you</span> were implying when you asked: “Are you trolling?” </p>
<p>That being said, I <span style="text-decoration: underline;">will</span> be more careful to use words in context less susceptible to nit picking in the future.)</p>
<p>--------</p>
<p>Now, back to my original contention that your question about a Fight or Flight decision is one that should not have to be made in a public school in the first place. That we should avoid our teachers and students having to make that decision by simply keeping people with guns out of public schools. Is your opposition to that suggestion based on it having been made by Wayne LaPierre?</p> Asa, you asked what implicati…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-04:2182797:Comment:21574512013-02-04T12:32:30.515Ztom sarbeckhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/TomSarbeck
<p>Asa, you asked what implications I would draw if you asked me “Are you an idiot?”</p>
<p>First, you imply (suggest) and I infer (conclude). Check a dictionary.</p>
<p>That settled, what would I (Tom) infer if you (Asa) were ask: “Are you an idiot?”</p>
<p>I infer nothing; your query lacks context for determining an amount of idiocy.</p>
<p>BTW, I doubt your expertise in economics. Until those "incomprehensible assets" are identified, who would accept them in repayment of a debt?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Asa, you asked what implications I would draw if you asked me “Are you an idiot?”</p>
<p>First, you imply (suggest) and I infer (conclude). Check a dictionary.</p>
<p>That settled, what would I (Tom) infer if you (Asa) were ask: “Are you an idiot?”</p>
<p>I infer nothing; your query lacks context for determining an amount of idiocy.</p>
<p>BTW, I doubt your expertise in economics. Until those "incomprehensible assets" are identified, who would accept them in repayment of a debt?</p>
<p></p> I don’t mean to deflect from…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-03:2182797:Comment:21570792013-02-03T23:17:09.446ZAsa Watcherhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/AsaWatcher
<p></p>
<p>I don’t mean to deflect from the subject of this forum, but it is such a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">common</span> argument against almost any improvement to the common good that I must point it out that when you say:</p>
<p><em>“America is not the richest damn country in the world. America is the most indebted country in the world.”</em></p>
<p></p>
<p>I would argue the fact that America can indebt itself so greatly is only because of the almost incomprehensible assets…</p>
<p></p>
<p>I don’t mean to deflect from the subject of this forum, but it is such a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">common</span> argument against almost any improvement to the common good that I must point it out that when you say:</p>
<p><em>“America is not the richest damn country in the world. America is the most indebted country in the world.”</em></p>
<p></p>
<p>I would argue the fact that America can indebt itself so greatly is only because of the almost incomprehensible assets that America possesses.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If you have $1.00 to your name, you will be laughed at if you ask to borrow $1,000.00.</p>
<p></p>
<p>America’s debt is a spit in the ocean when compared to the value of its assets. That’s why other countries are so willing to “loan” America money (actually invest), even at today’s <span style="text-decoration: underline;">low</span> interest rates, and why America should be borrowing <span style="text-decoration: underline;">more</span>, <span style="text-decoration: underline;">now</span>, to invest in its infrastructure instead of worrying about its “debt”. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Your argument that it would be somehow too expensive to guard our schools is without merit.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Oh, and BTW back to you:</p>
<p><em>"BTW, I asked "Are you trolling?"</em></p>
<p><em>Had I said "You are trolling" you could have correctly said I drew a wrong conclusion or insulted you."</em></p>
<p></p>
<p>That you “asked” has implications. </p>
<p>What implications would you draw were I to ask: “Are you an idiot?”</p>
<p>Just askin’ . . . not insulting.</p> Asa, your words support my co…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-03:2182797:Comment:21565812013-02-03T09:01:28.011Ztom sarbeckhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/TomSarbeck
<p>Asa, your words support my conclusion that you do have feelings on this subject. However, people who would remedy problems, such as legislators, need more than feelings.</p>
<p>Preventing people with guns from entering schools requires legislation, people, and money.</p>
<p>Your plan does have benefits. They include huge employment increases for guards, their managers and their trainers, huge sales for gun manufacturers and returns for their owners, and another place for China and other…</p>
<p>Asa, your words support my conclusion that you do have feelings on this subject. However, people who would remedy problems, such as legislators, need more than feelings.</p>
<p>Preventing people with guns from entering schools requires legislation, people, and money.</p>
<p>Your plan does have benefits. They include huge employment increases for guards, their managers and their trainers, huge sales for gun manufacturers and returns for their owners, and another place for China and other lenders to park their excess money.</p>
<p>Your plan also has costs. America is not the richest damn country in the world. If I can trust the news, America is the most indebted country in the world. Your "few bucks" will increase to many hundreds of millions. When you have decided how many guards you will post, you can begin to estimate the cash costs.</p>
<p>There are certain to be "friendly fire" consequences. They will cost more than just money.</p>
<p>That is some of the homework that neither LaPierre nor you did.</p>
<p>BTW, I asked "Are you trolling?"</p>
<p>Had I said "You are trolling" you could have correctly said I drew a wrong conclusion or insulted you.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p> Well, they were there to most…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2013-02-02:2182797:Comment:21565482013-02-02T23:59:53.672ZAsa Watcherhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/AsaWatcher
<p>Well, they were there to mostly watch for inappropriate behavior on the part of the students, and they were outside at the time, and, yes, they were out gunned.</p>
<p>And if we can't learn something from that experience then we're really stupid.</p>
<p>Well, they were there to mostly watch for inappropriate behavior on the part of the students, and they were outside at the time, and, yes, they were out gunned.</p>
<p>And if we can't learn something from that experience then we're really stupid.</p>