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coach_billyg - A Manefesto on 1st Class Usership Topic

Posted by scthallfan on 4/18/2013 3:36:00 AM (view original):It's possible to cheat by chatting in the coaches corner too....BAN THAT TOO
it's also possible to cheat through site mail, uh oh....BAN HAMMER!
What's that? Two owners know each other in real life? Oh they can cheat through email, phone calls, and texts so we should ban computers and phones too!
While I agree that something should be done to prevent people using a second team in a world to help their first team, a blanket banning of second accounts is not the answer. 1) WiS will alienate a lot of paying customers by doing this and 2) it's not that hard to get around. I used to play an app game that banned you from selling resources to your own alt account by stopping accounts being able to buy and sell between different accounts using the same IP address...well within seconds of that update going live people already knew how to get around it and that info spread like wild fire. By banning accounts, the only thing you will do is make there be less transparency with alts...people will find a way around it and not tell anyone...where as now I'd be willing to bet at least 90% of coaches using a second account would be willing to disclose that fact at any time now.

Which second account do you have that you are most upset about losing?

Posted by scthallfan on 4/18/2013 3:36:00 AM (view original):It's possible to cheat by chatting in the coaches corner too....BAN THAT TOO
it's also possible to cheat through site mail, uh oh....BAN HAMMER!
What's that? Two owners know each other in real life? Oh they can cheat through email, phone calls, and texts so we should ban computers and phones too!
While I agree that something should be done to prevent people using a second team in a world to help their first team, a blanket banning of second accounts is not the answer. 1) WiS will alienate a lot of paying customers by doing this and 2) it's not that hard to get around. I used to play an app game that banned you from selling resources to your own alt account by stopping accounts being able to buy and sell between different accounts using the same IP address...well within seconds of that update going live people already knew how to get around it and that info spread like wild fire. By banning accounts, the only thing you will do is make there be less transparency with alts...people will find a way around it and not tell anyone...where as now I'd be willing to bet at least 90% of coaches using a second account would be willing to disclose that fact at any time now.

I don't know if you're directing this comment specifically at me or this thread, but if you are then you've missed the point of it altogether. You should refer to the "multiple teams in one world" thread, it's got that subject on lockdown.

Posted by hughesjr on 4/18/2013 2:47:00 AM (view original):There is no need to have 2 teams in the same world unless you have a team in every other world and want to get an 11th one.

If possible, WIS could (should) move the 2nd team's coaching record to another world so that the coach does not need to start out at Div-3 with no wins.

But it is too easy to cheat with 2 teams in the same world.

If people want to quit because they have to have 2 teams in the same world, then let them quit.

It is an unfair advantage, pure and simple. You get advantages that others do not have and the only way to not take advantage of them is to very much go out of your way to do so. I mean, if you have Div-1A team in Texas and a Div-1 team in Florida ... and if you are running low on cash with your Florida team and you scouted Arkansas from Texas ... it is ludicrous to think that you would/could forget that PlayerA is both good and undecided in Arkansas and would be a good pickup for your Florida team.

It is possible to not cheat with multiple teams in the same world. It is IMPOSSIBLE to not collude though. You have information that other coaches do not have about the world from another coach. You know recruiting info from the other coach in the same world, you know his recruiting list and exactly how much money he has to recruit. You know which players he wants and who are backups. You know everything about 2 teams. You are even making agreements not to recruit the same guys or the same states, etc.

Why do we need to allow something that makes cheating so easy, and just hope for the best?

Posted by ryan75 on 4/18/2013 9:38:00 AM (view original):Posting this with an alias of Oldresorter. I play the ryan75 account off and on, usually when it has some credit in it. I would support the notion of not letting coaches have alias accounts at all. I'd also support the idea that you can't have teams in the same division, but could have d1,d2,d3 under one ID. In that case, I'd like to see coaches not able to see all the recruits, but simply those at their division. Since we have a sort for divisions in recruiting, I would assume this to be a trivial change, by only allowing the division you are in to be displayed. As far as I know, there is no reason to look at the other divisions anyhow, other than to cheat???

So why doesn't someone write a ticket up and get this fixed? I would, but I'm afraid I have very little sway with seble, I used up all my goodwill with him (or he with me) when he sabotaged the game with recruit generation a few years back. I don't think I've written more than 1 or 2 tickets since.

One other comment, if you get some silly response to a ticket, don't hesitate to resubmit and ask RESPECTFULLY for seble, I have found this works, and on the second response, you get one that makes sense, even if you don't like it.

You forgot about dropdowns, which is a huge part of recruiting for D2 & D3.

On one hand, those who have multiple teams in the same world DO get an advantage over the rest of us. They have knowledge of two teams, including FSS for both. They may even not be recruiting the same players on purpose, which is essentially colluding with yourself so you "both" get the recruits you want.

On the other hand, WIS probably doesn't want to cost itself a lot of money by alienating its best customers by making them remove some long-held teams.

One example I can give is the proliferation of people who have two teams even within the same division in the same world.

I don't want to name specific coaches but I know of one person who I personally did not know had two user IDs until recently even though I've had many discussions with him through WIS and respect him a great deal - from what I now understand about his two user names, he has two teams in one world in the same division which are without a doubt within the 1000 mile limit.

Again, this is someone I respect and think is a great coach, but this raises issues WIS (and obviously other coaches) have been concerned with.

"wiping those veteran teams out might sound good for a minute, it would at least get easier to win championships! and im sure a few of the multiple team guys are cheating and so youd catch a few cheaters, too - just like you would wiping out ANY segment of this game's population."

I feel like people are REALLY misreading this part. He's not saying he knows people on that list are cheating. He's saying that if you took ANY random segment of the HD population, you'd likely find a few cheaters.

Posted by killbatman on 4/18/2013 10:39:00 AM (view original):"wiping those veteran teams out might sound good for a minute, it would at least get easier to win championships! and im sure a few of the multiple team guys are cheating and so youd catch a few cheaters, too - just like you would wiping out ANY segment of this game's population."

I feel like people are REALLY misreading this part. He's not saying he knows people on that list are cheating. He's saying that if you took ANY random segment of the HD population, you'd likely find a few cheaters.

What difference does it make? I don't care what segment of HD we look at. Any user coaching multiple teams in the same world should have one of those teams taken away. It doesn't matter if they are the winningest or losingest coach in that world.

And yes, it is significant to admit that among the "most elite" coaches in HD there are as many cheaters as any other segment. YES. That is a significant statement. An NCAA sanction against Ohio State is a lot more significant to college football than a sanction against Miami. Why? Ohio State is actually winning championships.

Maybe aejones and billyg should amend their wordy advice posts to new users. How to win in D2 and D3: Recruiting: "Get a second username so you can coach another team in the same world. Now running out of budget money won't be a problem for you. You can save all the money on FSS by scouting states with your other username. This is crucial to winning in HD."

Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):It would seem to me that the beef would be with this statement:

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.

The Dishonesty of Ellipses: Exhibit A.

Within each set of ellipses, Billy brags about what a superior coach he is. I didn't feel that was relevant to the discussion. Nice try, though.

Of course, just plain ol' lying is dishonest too.

(Unless you have a good argument that this clause is billyg bragging about his coaching: "just like you would wiping out ANY segment of this game's population")

Posted by killbatman on 4/18/2013 10:39:00 AM (view original):"wiping those veteran teams out might sound good for a minute, it would at least get easier to win championships! and im sure a few of the multiple team guys are cheating and so youd catch a few cheaters, too - just like you would wiping out ANY segment of this game's population."

I feel like people are REALLY misreading this part. He's not saying he knows people on that list are cheating. He's saying that if you took ANY random segment of the HD population, you'd likely find a few cheaters.

What difference does it make? I don't care what segment of HD we look at. Any user coaching multiple teams in the same world should have one of those teams taken away. It doesn't matter if they are the winningest or losingest coach in that world.

And yes, it is significant to admit that among the "most elite" coaches in HD there are as many cheaters as any other segment. YES. That is a significant statement. An NCAA sanction against Ohio State is a lot more significant to college football than a sanction against Miami. Why? Ohio State is actually winning championships.

Maybe aejones and billyg should amend their wordy advice posts to new users. How to win in D2 and D3: Recruiting: "Get a second username so you can coach another team in the same world. Now running out of budget money won't be a problem for you. You can save all the money on FSS by scouting states with your other username. This is crucial to winning in HD."

Give me a break.

Again, you're REALLY reading too much into his statement. I guarantee it was made in a casual probabilistic sense. It's inevitable that any segment of the population would have cheaters, and there's no evidence that the coaches listed, or successful coaches in general, are any more or less likely to be cheaters than anyone else. He didn't "admit" anything other than having an understanding of probability.

Spare me all the other BS about cheating.

fwiw I don't have multiple teams in a world and would support not allowing it. But it bothers me how that quote is being blown out of proportion.