You know I just noticed some disturbing behavior in the cruise control system of my 99 Mazda Protege.

An input from the clutch or brake should toggle the cruise control function off. However I noticed that if I press in the clutch while I'm pressing down on the lever the signal is hidden, and when after I've down shifted I let up on the lever, the throttle engages!

In reviewing the cases in public circulation, two things stick out for me.

1. It's not the floor mats.

2. Drivers are very poorly educated about how to stop a runaway car. The drivers below went for the so-called "emergency brake" before placing the gear selector in neutral or shutting off the ignition, which never occurred to them. This is incredible to me. Where do people get these ideas? Cars don't even have "emergency brakes." It's a parking brake. This doesn't absolve the manufacturer from its responsibility, but drivers have a responsibility to know how to operate their vehicles.

I tend to presume that most 70 year-olds are more competent than the drivers below. To me, these drivers have no more understanding of their vehicles than they would of an amusement-park ride. They're sitting in the drivers' seat, but they are not driving their vehicles. They seem to lack a basic understanding of what makes the car go or stop. The takeaway here is TALK to your friends and loved ones and MAKE SURE they know how to handle a car with a stuck throttle.

How do these people get a liscence? Clearly they are inept and should not have a liscenceBut more importantly the cars are almost certainly at fault. Most modern cars have so much electronic guff as to isolate the driver from real conditions.ABS while handy ultimatly increases braking distance and can fail too. I have seen that and repaired that on several occasions.And it does not like very dirty conditions as experienced in most country areas in winter. Older style ABS that increses pedal travel when it supposedly unlocks a wheel is frightening and bloody dangerous.And ofcourse when the mug driver gets in a non ABS car has more chance of locking a brake and crashing. Stability control will never be better than an experienced driver, a mate scared the hell out of himself towing a caravan because the control does NOT work to counteract a swaying van, the complete opposite in fact. He visited the first dealer he came across and demanded it disconnected. Evidently he was not the first.Cruise control while handy totally disconnects the driver from controlling the vehicle. And so many people are having accidents because they are not in full control or are not alert.And when the driver has their legs 2 feet from the brake the accident has happened before they react and move. And most people are guilty of that. I know of a multiple fatality where the driver went to sleep and the cruise drove him off the road on the first decent road bend. When you are controlling the car that is less likely to happen.Powere steering will always be with us as modern suspension setting make the car too hard to park and low speed manouvre. Though I refuse to have powersteer on a racecar as I lose too much sensibility. But great on the towcar!Though you can stick electric power steer. Somebody has itemised why above.We seem to have a situation where people expect to be driven in their cars, not to drive them.And push button engine stops and cars you cannot take out of gear are clearly a death trap and should all be rectified by emergency recall. As for Toyotas problems an immediate recall and proper rectification seems in order. I am sure they would have an idea why but are trying to save the big dollars involved, and to give reasons for numerous law suits.Though with the drivers in those clips they are clearly partly to blame by their incompetence.

Sounds safe and sensible. When you release the lever you have just told the car the new setpoint, and no other controls are telling it to disable. FWIW we didn't used to bother with clutch or neutral disabling CC on the basis that the driver should know what would happen, or would learn.

The problem first surfaced on the Toyota Tacoma pickup some years ago (2002 if I recall) and has since spread to the Camry, Prius, and Lexus. The floor mat recall applies to eight different Toyota and Lexus models, and the gas pedal recall to seven, I think. On the Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES, the recall also includes peeling back the carpet and replacing the padding with thinner material. Around four million vehicles, all told.

OK, from my readin here I got the impression that some specific model was the problem.

Either the media (or some class action mogul) is chasing Toyota or the Japaneses are lying blatantly and they know they have a big ECU problem. No way such a big variety of models are suffering from misplaced matts.

If they really have system problems I can see the end of Toyota. How are the stats for such accidents with other car makes?

Would I be right in thinking that some manufacturers do "rectifications" on cars during servicing for things that aren't on recall? Maybe the cars will be reprogrammed when they come in for their mats.

How do these people get a licence? Clearly they are inept and should not have a liscence

With respect thats a bit silly as 99% of drivers are incapable of handling even the most minor 'situation' - what do we do, stop everyone from driving?

The bottom line is this is a shocking situation and a bit of a slight on the American (not alone) legal system that Toyota can't just admit it without seriously being sued and properly rectify a situation that urgently needs rectifying.

My gut feeling is that the floormat/throttle pedal mods are a bit of a smokescreen so that they can be seen to be working on the problem, while actually investigating the whole software side. Pretty expensive smokescreen if that is all it is.

The signoff tests for the stability system use hardware in the loop testing, where a computer simulates every possible fault condition and timing conflict and then checks for a safe outcome by running a simplified vehicle model. I know the powertrain guys use the equivalent simulator and process, because we nicked it from them. If you are a sensible person and use Matlab for your code development they even have software that will generate the test matrix for you. Maybe Toyota don't do all this, but I'd be surprised.

Perhaps a 6_Sigma workout showed that in all the ECU testing they'd done, that a number of possible faults had never been recorded during testing, so they were regarded as statiscally impossible and thus stopped testing for them. Perhaps it's a system fault that can only be induced in a road-going vehicle that involves the driver's polyester pants and Star-tac cell phone while in the region of high tension lines. I'm quite curious to know what events need to transpire to duplicate things.

Perhaps a 6_Sigma workout showed that in all the ECU testing they'd done, that a number of possible faults had never been recorded during testing, so they were regarded as statiscally impossible and thus stopped testing for them. Perhaps it's a system fault that can only be induced in a road-going vehicle that involves the driver's polyester pants and Star-tac cell phone while in the region of high tension lines. I'm quite curious to know what events need to transpire to duplicate things.

Or it could be tin whiskers growing from pure tin plated parts and lead-free solder causing a short circuit that makes the circuit go haywire.

Perhaps a 6_Sigma workout showed that in all the ECU testing they'd done, that a number of possible faults had never been recorded during testing, so they were regarded as statiscally impossible and thus stopped testing for them.

Similar to the Ariane 501. One piece of software was never tested within the system "because it was qualified on the Ariane 4". Somehow no one considered that the flight trajectory are vastly different between the Ariane 4xx and the 5xx.

Or it could be tin whiskers growing from pure tin plated parts and lead-free solder causing a short circuit that makes the circuit go haywire.

There are reported incidents, where the new, electrically powered steering on Volkswagen cars acts up, due to bad capacitors (like in cheap PC power supplies). Having seen the "quality" of VW electronic boxes myself, I wouldn't want to drive one of those electronic failures waiting to happen...

I'm not trying to say this means anything necessarily but maybe...A number of years ago (15?) a friend that worked at a tech centre in Toronto for a Japanese car company found out by fluke that a CB radio caused his car to shut off. They had had a number of complaints about customers cars shutting off and they couldn't figure it out. My friend is stopped at a traffic light in his company car, next to him is some guy in a pick-up truck. Buddy pushes the CB radio hand held mic button to talk and my friends car quits running. Friend restarts his car , asks buddy in the pick up truck to push the button again , friends car switches off. They do it again with the same result. I be no expert but it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to say this means anything necessarily but maybe...A number of years ago (15?) a friend that worked at a tech centre in Toronto for a Japanese car company found out by fluke that a CB radio caused his car to shut off. They had had a number of complaints about customers cars shutting off and they couldn't figure it out. My friend is stopped at a traffic light in his company car, next to him is some guy in a pick-up truck. Buddy pushes the CB radio hand held mic button to talk and my friends car quits running. Friend restarts his car , asks buddy in the pick up truck to push the button again , friends car switches off. They do it again with the same result. I be no expert but it doesn't make sense to me.

As a major plane crash here in Sao Paulo being connected with cell phones switching engines to revert in a Fokker 100 just after take off. Dunno if it was confirmed, but it was the first cell phone ban I've seen.

I'm not trying to say this means anything necessarily but maybe...A number of years ago (15?) a friend that worked at a tech centre in Toronto for a Japanese car company found out by fluke that a CB radio caused his car to shut off. They had had a number of complaints about customers cars shutting off and they couldn't figure it out. My friend is stopped at a traffic light in his company car, next to him is some guy in a pick-up truck. Buddy pushes the CB radio hand held mic button to talk and my friends car quits running. Friend restarts his car , asks buddy in the pick up truck to push the button again , friends car switches off. They do it again with the same result. I be no expert but it doesn't make sense to me.

Actually this phenomenom is well known under the label "EMC", electromagnetic compatibility. CB radio might influence your car's ECU enough for it to go into reset or simply crash.This wasn't investigated and tested 15 years ago as intensively as today. At our companies facility there are multiple EMC test rooms where all sorts of electronic units are tested - for what they emit and whether they are influenced by electromagnetic radiation from the outside; ranging from small units like a car radio, up to complete cars (actually BMW is a regular guest over there) up to a complete helicopter.

Three days before the fiery crash of a loaner Lexus sedan that killed California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor and his family, a man who was given the same car experienced a similar sudden acceleration problem and reported it to the dealership, a Sheriff’s Department investigation found.

In the sheriff’s report, Bernard told investigators that he had the car, one in a fleet of loaners belonging to the Lexus dealership, on Aug. 24 and 25. He said that on the second day, while merging onto Interstate 15 from the Poway Road on-ramp, he took his foot off the gas and the car kept accelerating, to 85 mph.

Bernard pressed long and hard on the brakes and was able to pull over and slow down. He put the car into neutral, but the engine continued to race at full speed. After several failed attempts at turning off the engine, he realized the floor mat had jammed the gas pedal.

It's definitely going to mean that the stealership pays big bucks to the family of the trooper.

It also reinforces what a lot of people are saying about knowing how to drive. The guy who handled the problem properly was 61. Do you think the fact he learned how to drive on older technology has something to do with it?

Excellent thread. I was wondering the same sorts of things when I heard the report of the CHP guy and his family in the Lexus.

A couple of thoughts come to mind:

5. In my prior employment, one of my jobs was the design and fabrication of test rigs (and electronic controls). Every test rig had an e-stop that would kill the thing ... totally de-energize it by tripping the electrical breakers, releasing pressurized air, etc. We also set the rigs up so that if they failed, it would be "safely." I like the idea of an "e-stop" button (or a "T" handle) to kill the engine in a car ... why don't we have these? An e-stop should be compulsory in an automobile. Unacceptable.

7. Murphy's Law ... military electronic systems go through extensive environmental testing that includes such things as EMI, EMP, etc. Actual weapons that go "boom" go through even more analysis and testing to ensure they only go "boom" when they're supposed to and not by accident. If car designers are going to increase their reliance on electronics, I would think/hope that their electronic systems would have to go through similar testing to prove they're capable of doing their job (although I would assume that the added expense would be rejected by the auto manufacturers or the cost passed on to the consumers).

I agree about the E-Stop. Practically every machine in industry must be fitted with a working e-stop, and I'd say many of these machines are far less hazardous than a runaway car. A bright red button in the middle of the dash would be blindingly obvious, but I wouldn't use it to shut off fuel and spark via the ECU - the ECU may be the cause of the problem. Instead, I'd follow (oil and gas) industry again, and have the e-stop trip a flap in the intake that chokes the engine. This way even if the engine was still receiving fuel and spark - or even gas in the atmosphere - it would definitely, positively stop.Not sure how the manufacturers would feel about fitting it though - it would be an acknowledgement that sometimes things go wrong. I doubt any of them would do it unless it was mandatory across the board.

Hmm, I think the last 40 years has demonstrated that an electrical ignition cut-off that people know how to use is enough. There doesn't seem much point in a belt and braces approach for engine cut-off such as you are suggesting when much more important systems have single points of failure (steering column, brakes).

I agree about the E-Stop. Practically every machine in industry must be fitted with a working e-stop, and I'd say many of these machines are far less hazardous than a runaway car. A bright red button in the middle of the dash would be blindingly obvious, but I wouldn't use it to shut off fuel and spark via the ECU - the ECU may be the cause of the problem. Instead, I'd follow (oil and gas) industry again, and have the e-stop trip a flap in the intake that chokes the engine. This way even if the engine was still receiving fuel and spark - or even gas in the atmosphere - it would definitely, positively stop.Not sure how the manufacturers would feel about fitting it though - it would be an acknowledgement that sometimes things go wrong. I doubt any of them would do it unless it was mandatory across the board.

Just cut the power to the fuel pump, the engine will stop in less than a second or so.

But you can aways switch into neutral, don't you? I drive to automatics and one stick. One automatic flips into neutral just by moving the lever, the second one will do if you press the button on the handle. But both will do.

But you can aways switch into neutral, don't you? I drive to automatics and one stick. One automatic flips into neutral just by moving the lever, the second one will do if you press the button on the handle. But both will do.

Sure, that is the natural assumption. That was mine anyway. But the CHP officer never shifted to neutral, successfully at least, indicating that either 1) he had a serious mental lapse and forgot he could engage neutral, or 2) the electronic shift selector failed at the same time the SUA occurred. In a more recent development, it turns out that another driver experienced SUA with the same very vehicle (a service loaner) the day before, but stated he was able to select neutral.

There is also a class-action suit brought by two other SUA subjects, which states that in at least some models, the shifter must be moved in two successive directions -- up and over -- in order to select neutral from drive, instead of the usual one as you describe. In their remedies, they ask that the gear selector be changed to a more conventional configuration. Which suggests a third possibility in the above case: that the CHP officer tried but was unable to find neutral.

Hmm, I think the last 40 years has demonstrated that an electrical ignition cut-off that people know how to use is enough. There doesn't seem much point in a belt and braces approach for engine cut-off such as you are suggesting when much more important systems have single points of failure (steering column, brakes).

The air-choke idea also requires a rather complicated mechanism with a bunch of mechanical parts that will tend to carbon up and stick, especially when seldom cycled. Essentially, it's a second throttle for emergencies.

I think we simply need a dash switch that opens the high side of the ignition/fuel injector power circuit. Big push-button kill switch where the boy-racer "engine start" button now resides. That strikes me as the most simple and positive approach.

Interrupting the fuel pump is a little more fraught due to the higher current load. Switches like that are expensive and not totally reliable in practice. Unless you use the switch to simply open the fuel pump relay, a less positive solution. Although I would wire it up so that the fuel pump relay was opened along with the ignition, because it's not a good idea to have the fuel pump running for any length of time with the engine stalled, especially in the anticipation of a collision. In theory, the ECM should shut off the fuel pump at low rpm and/or oil pressure but we can't rely on the ECM at this point.

Sure, that is the natural assumption. That was mine anyway. But the CHP officer never shifted to neutral, successfully at least, indicating that either 1) he had a serious mental lapse and forgot he could engage neutral, or 2) the electronic shift selector failed at the same time the SUA occurred. In a more recent development, it turns out that another driver experienced SUA with the same very vehicle (a service loaner) the day before, but stated he was able to select neutral.

If I've read it right, the guy put it into neutral after stopping the car. He braked it while the engine was charging. So none of them thought of it. Like you guys mentioned above, this is a huge lack of understanding on how stuff work. It if was a 75 granny I'd understand, but a CHP officer with i don't know how many hours of driver training?????

Wonder how much brake was left after the first incident?
There seems to be some subtle notion that if it's a floor mat, then it's not really a problem. Assuming it is in fact the floor mat, are people really suggesting that their reaction to a sudden, uninititated, non-stop, possibly WOT situation in normal traffic would be to take their eyes of the road and surrounding traffic to both identify and rectify said jammed floormat? I find that hard to believe.

Yes a 61 year old Toyota employee went back in time to stage a stuck pedal incident in that Lexus, so that an undercover GM agent's (disguised as a 'cop') plot to reveal the evil Jap electrons can be 'explained' as merely a floormat issue, thus saving the brand and company from disgrace and shame.

Inspite of his steadfast dedication to Toyoda clan, Ninjas will terminate the gaijin agent shortly. He knows too much.

The air-choke idea also requires a rather complicated mechanism with a bunch of mechanical parts that will tend to carbon up and stick, especially when seldom cycled. Essentially, it's a second throttle for emergencies.

I think we simply need a dash switch that opens the high side of the ignition/fuel injector power circuit. Big push-button kill switch where the boy-racer "engine start" button now resides. That strikes me as the most simple and positive approach.

It doesn't need to be complex. If the air flap was operated by a solenoid and was energised to open and spring closed it would be basically fail-safe and cycled at every start-up. Millions of diesels use this setup successfully already, though a positive fuel/spark shutoff would be fine too.Regardless of how the switch worked, I think the challenge would be in getting the car makers to actually fit the thing. An e-stop would be an admission that a malfunction is a possibility - maybe they could spin it as being a safety device in case of an accident or if the driver has a hearty or whatever..

The primary concern when examining different solutions for shutting down / disabling power has to be the nature of our intuitive interaction with the system, as established by the method of operation of ignition swiches over decades of automotive use. That is why, of all the solutions proposed so far, Greg's is the most relevant; a system "that people know how to use".

This perspective would have left Toyota with plenty of scope for a push-button ignition to satisfy the racy/techie image that they wanted without leading to a carbon-copy of power switches found on computers; push to turn on, hold for 3 seconds to turn off. Though this 'booting' method is true to the evolution of the nature of automobiles into compumobiles, it is not a truth that the general public have come to recognise yet, and even if they did it wouldn't help those septagenarian drivers of Lexii who are most likely to be confused by such simple concepts as right-clicking the mouse.

Though it's easy for me to be critical of Toyota now (being as I am outside the decision making process and with the full benefit of hindsight), I still think it is fair to ask what the hell they were thinking when they developed this ignition system. The lesson of accounting for human nature in the design of cars has to be very well learned by now in the industry, so the fact that they completely disregarded behavioral analysis in the course of implementing such a fundamental change to such a vital system is damned near unforgivable.

For example, here are a few common operating scenarios for the ignition system that I wager most drivers don't have the first clue about when applied to the new ignition systems without ignition cylinders. Yet they can be vital to the safe operation of the vehicle. If anybody knows the answers to any of these questions, I would love to hear them please.

Does the 'start' button operate the starter discretely or does it merely send a start signal to the ECU, which then controls the duration of the cranking period?

If the proximity-sensor equiped 'key' is thrown out of the vehicle while it is running, will it turn off the power (the equivalent of turning off the key in mechanical ignition switches)?'

How does the driver go from engine running to engine off with accessory power only?

How is the government-mandated steering interlock switch operated on these vehicles?

Yes a 61 year old Toyota employee went back in time to stage a stuck pedal incident in that Lexus, so that an undercover GM agent's (disguised as a 'cop') plot to reveal the evil Jap electrons can be 'explained' as merely a floormat issue, thus saving the brand and company from disgrace and shame.

Inspite of his steadfast dedication to Toyoda clan, Ninjas will terminate the gaijin agent shortly. He knows too much.

And his grandson will seek revenge.

Your talking to a big Dr Who fan here. that would make a great episode

Clearly what these Toymotas need is a proper ignition switch. Eg standardised controls insyead of wanker boyracer shit.And it seems a shift mechanism that is easy to select nuetral.
And that is after the recall to fix 'floor mats' which is seemingly part of the ECU. I would be very surprised if a highway cop did not have the prescence of mind to select nuetral. So what happened?
Most of those other people probably purely panicked but a cop should be less likely to be panicked.

Clearly what these Toymotas need is a proper ignition switch. Eg standardised controls insyead of wanker boyracer shit.And it seems a shift mechanism that is easy to select nuetral.And that is after the recall to fix 'floor mats' which is seemingly part of the ECU. I would be very surprised if a highway cop did not have the prescence of mind to select nuetral. So what happened?Most of those other people probably purely panicked but a cop should be less likely to be panicked.

He was off duty, the car was full of people, who knows if he was tired, had a drink, etc.

One witness reported that she was driving north on state Route 125 at Grossmont College Drive when she saw a white Lexus going about 45 to 50 mph with its emergency flashers on, “surging like it was out of gas.” She passed the car, then saw in her rearview mirror that it was pulling over to the right shoulder and lost sight of it.

Sounds like the driver was pumping the brake and wasted his one opportunity to bring the car to a stop - overheating the brakes instead.

You are such a girl. You remind me of those brides who lock themselves in the bathroom.

Very Freudian.You remind me of someone with excellent technical knowledge in many areas of motorsport & cars, a valuable resource. However when you make the occasional mistake your ego does not permit you to admit it. You were demonstrated in making an error that requires an apology, and I am not ever going to quit until I get one.Please keep making the excellent technical posts though, I enjoy learning from anyone & everyone.

Another thought on the stopping the engine thing ...Why not just have a little handle then when pulled pulls the fuel pump fuse out? That's pretty basic.

Dude, you went to the trouble of creating and hosting an image and then including a link in every post. And you want to talk about ego?

I'm more that happy to just leave it in in my signature so it's not quoted, but the Mods have for some reason turned that function off.Anyway I don't want to sidetrack the thread .... please let us keep solving Toyota's problems.

Another thought on the stopping the engine thing ...Why not just have a little handle then when pulled pulls the fuel pump fuse out? That's pretty basic.

Yes, sort of like an aircraft "T" handle. Not sure exactly how they're setup on newer aircraft, as I recall (it was over 15 years ago) on the KC-135 the T handle shuts off the fuel supply to the engine (like closes a valve), disconnects electrical power, and closes the bleed valves.

It would be probably a bit much to implement on a car, however I like the idea of a disconnect from the battery. Press the button and all electrics are removed. There would be some other issues like making sure the steering has some function (and the column doesn't lock), some brake functionality, etc. Perhaps 2 circuits, one for engine control and a separate one for "other" (non-engine) functions. Press the e-stop (or pull the handle) and the engine circuit is de-energized.

I would be very surprised if a highway cop did not have the prescence of mind to select nuetral. So what happened?

Not sure, but someone mentioned that "N" is locked out during highway driving ... not sure if that is the case or not, but if it is it is a problem. Takes control away from the driver and puts it in control of the car's computer.

It doesn't need to be complex. If the air flap was operated by a solenoid and was energised to open and spring closed it would be basically fail-safe and cycled at every start-up. Millions of diesels use this setup successfully already, though a positive fuel/spark shutoff would be fine too.Regardless of how the switch worked, I think the challenge would be in getting the car makers to actually fit the thing. An e-stop would be an admission that a malfunction is a possibility - maybe they could spin it as being a safety device in case of an accident or if the driver has a hearty or whatever..

The flap was not perfect on the old 2 stroke diesels. If the engine was "running away", and the emergency stop was activated, closing a flap in the air horn, the engines have been known to keep running. The same happened if the fuel was cut to one of those engines when they were "running away". The difference was that they would suck the oil out of the crank case and continue running using the oil as fuel. Granted this is gasoline and a 4 stroke engine, so the above would not occur.

I watched during the 80s, have seen the adverts for the new (current?) series. Haven't watched, though.

All.

New highly recommended!

While I can't vouch for if you will or will not like the 2 new Doctors themselves, Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant, I can say that many of the stories are some of the most brilliantly written science fiction I have come across and in the true Doctor style, quite amazing considering the time constraints they work within. Special effects are very good too which in some ways is a bit of a let down if you have been bought up on earlier BBC budget series Doctors

Not sure, but someone mentioned that "N" is locked out during highway driving ... not sure if that is the case or not, but if it is it is a problem. Takes control away from the driver and puts it in control of the car's computer.

Strange you can't.

My Mazda 6 Auto has a control option to the right for manual up and down shifts which I lock it in 5th on the freeway to save a bit of fuel and/or faster downchange to overtake (why the 'eF are auto's so slow to change down these days for a power pass?).

However what I do sometimes is when I'm in Drive I instictively knock the lever forward to change down for a pass forgetting I'm in Drive and it easily slips into Neutral - too easy, there should be a dogleg there.

Not sure, but someone mentioned that "N" is locked out during highway driving ... not sure if that is the case or not, but if it is it is a problem. Takes control away from the driver and puts it in control of the car's computer.

Not as a normal function. To my knowledge, when the shifter is operating normally, neutral can be selected at any time. I would presume that the transmission/shifter does include the usual reverse and/or Park refusal functions.

However, the shifter gate requires the driver to move the shifter over and up to obtain neutral. One can't just bump the lever forward as in the usual case. Adding confusion to this, the shifter labeling and the visual appearance of the gate seem to indicate that neutral can be obtained normally when the shifter is in the left gate. However, moving the lever forward only operates the + function of the +/- upshift/downshift function.