muck4doo:That would be much more believable from you if you didn't have that focus primarily on one group of people.

AND

RoyBatty:Since you are asking us to give up a rich cultural history, and cultural values, and identification in a group we love, to assimilate with the norm, it seems reasonable to wonder what you are going to be giving up.

Which brings me to the part of the question you didn't answer.

So we can better understand your own sacrifices in this combined journey, can you tell us a bit more of your own background, without getting too personal, but where are you from? What country do you live in? What's your religious, and ethnic background? About how old are you?

I'll answer you both with one shot:

First, a silhouette bio: I'm male, 50ish, whitish, of Western European heritage (Scot, Irish, English, Nordic - not necessarily in that order - potpourii). I was brought up in a religion, but was never comfortable in it, and began studying and exploring other religions in an attempt to find my "place". I learned a lot, and what I found was that organized religion and most associated belief systems are not compatible to where we are evolving as a society - especially in this technologically driven age.

So I am not religious, but neither am I an "atheist" in the classical sense, in that I am presently inclined toward the idea that there is a larger consciousness that pervades not only humanity, but the whole of the universe. There is only one thing.

What sacrifices can I make? I identify myself as a human being who was born and happily lives in the USA on the planet Earth. As an Earthling I am obviously concerned with the best interests of the planet that supports me, and the beings that share the planet with me. As American Is my home, I am more specifically concerned with the interests of my nation and its relationships with other nations, as these have a tendency directly affect me. Of course I am also concerned with the best interests of my state, my city, my family and my home. I think that's pretty natural, don't you?

As I don't strongly identify with any race, religion, ethnicity or "culture" (other than the one that surrounds me), I see that there is little I could "sacrifice". I am a fan of history, but I'm not into ancestor worship or nostalgia, except that I do have an affinity for my nation and its Constitution, because while it may not be perfect, it is a rare jewel in its egalitarian construction, and I happen to believe that it is (was) the best form of government yet conceived by man.

Now to the additional question that both of you asked.

When I observe our evolution as a species, one thing troubles me more than any other - and that is the natural clinging to divisions: Ethnocentrism, racism, "nationalism" religious supremacism - all of these were spawned from ancient tribalist tendencies that, while they served us well through most of our history, and no doubt helped us to successfully evolve as a species, have become a MAJOR liability to humanity AND the planet itself thanks to advancements in transportation and technology.

The inter-group clashes that we experienced in the past are no longer necessarily minimal and localized. Our population has grown, society is concentrating into increasingly larger groups, and global communication is instantaneous. Additionally, we now have the ability to rain global hell down on ourselves and the planet. We can quite literally wipe ourselves out overnight.

The perceived divisions that we cling to - the nationalism, ethnocentrism, racism and religious beliefs that cause us to differentiate ourselves from one another - while perfectly natural - are certain to be the primer that sets of the "bomb". These (and inter-group the competition for resources) are the primary source of dangerous tension that currently exists on the planet.

We cannot afford to cling to clannishness, ethnocentrism etc. if we hope to survive and evolve as a species. If we are to succeed, our social evolution must parallel our technological advancements - and we're WAY behind. We're like a toddler with a flame thrower.

Why do I pay what you might believe is an inordinate amount of attention to a certain group? It may be because that particular group uniquely exemplifies the very spirit of separation, clanishness, ethnocentrism and nationalism more profoundly than any other I have encountered. Indeed, these characteristics are the very glue that has held this group together as a separate and distinct "people" through thousands of years of dwelling in diaspora - a nation within nations that refused to assimilate in spite of enormous pressure to do so.

While group solidarity is not necessarily a "bad" thing, trouble begins when the "perceived" interests of one self-identified group clash wit the "perceived" interests of another or others. This scenario has repeated itself time and again throughout history, often with disasterous results, and frankly that is what I see happening again, and it does NOT bode well for the best interests of ANY group, of humanity as a whole, or of the planet itself.

They succeeded in wiping out every man, woman and child in a few civilizations because somebody heard a voice in his head.

Look, I think religious food laws are as stupid as the next sneering, contemptuous, malodorous atheist. But let's save the outrage for when someone is trying to force us to follow their rules, not when someone decides (presumably, of their own free will) to follow them.

Or when they expect tax dollars to subsidize their religious food fetishes?

No, he's not. He's merely claiming that the state has no business in supporting religious choices of its citizens with tax money, which include voluntary dietary choices. The state should enable its citizens to pursue such choices, if they desire, through non-interference (some limitations apply). So it's each citizens' right to pursue whatever religion they wish.

He's also saying that, on critical reflection, the 613 commandments in the Torah are bat-shiat insane. We could also delve into the absolutely bug-fark pronouncements of the Catholic Church, the Mormon Bible (which reads like bad fantasy), or the $cientologist sci-fi cult, for similar results. An analogous situation to the one in the article would be for the MA state gov't to subsidize Scientologist "run-downs" in old folks' homes; you cool with that? If not, why do you hate Scientologists?

Amos Quito: Seems to me that your problem is one of identity, and that your solution is simple: Stop identifying yourself as a "Jew", stop telling everyone that you're a Jew, refuse to be dragged into the shiatstorms that the Zionists stir up and simply start acting like a Human American who is interested in furthering the best interests of Humans in general and Americans in particular - and encourage other "Jews" to do the same.

Amos, is this your prescription for yourself and for everyone?

That the Irish don't identify as Irish, the Catholic as Catholic, the Iranians as Iranian, the Muslims as Muslim, the queer as queer, the feminist as feminist, blacks as black?

Since you seem to prescribe for us what we should believe and how we should act in these issues, will you tell us what your ethnic, religious, and cultural background is? So that we can better understand literally where you come from and what you are going to give up?

I May Be Crazy But...:You don't happen to know how that works, do you? I'm curious, but too lazy to do he research for myself.

My understanding was also that most new ovens or stoves will turn off after a while. So it keeps them from turning off, so they don't have to be turned back on. I'll admit, I've never tried it to find out. And maybe we're talking about the same thing.

Well it's very simple:

In a closed environment, they know that X amount of [whatever electrical current going on through the machine] gives enough [whatever that's supposed to be] power to keep the temp inside as 350 degrees.

The difference between Shabbat mode and non-Shabbat mood is quite simple.

If there is a change in the environment:

Shabbat mode: the amount of electrical current giving off the amount of power needed for 350f will stay the samenon-Shabbat mode: the amount of electrical current giving off the amount of power needed for 350f will adjust based on the new conditions

Tatsuma:beerrun: Our house is covered. My new oven has the Sabbath mode option.Never knew what that was all about.

Shabbat mode is, b'kitzur (jewish way of saying 'in short', more or less):

If the temp for the oven is set to 350f, in regular oven it will make sure that it stays at 350f all the time, meaning that if you open the door, the temperature of the room (if under or over 350f) will affect the temperature inside the oven. This means that the electric thingies inside the oven will activate automatically and adjust the temp so it stays 350.

Shabbat mode, on the other hand, insures that the temp that is generated from inside the oven will stay an equal 350f temp, even if the door is opened, and will not activate those electronic thingies, ensuring we can open the oven on shabbat.

You don't happen to know how that works, do you? I'm curious, but too lazy to do he research for myself.

My understanding was also that most new ovens or stoves will turn off after a while. So it keeps them from turning off, so they don't have to be turned back on. I'll admit, I've never tried it to find out. And maybe we're talking about the same thing.

beerrun:Our house is covered. My new oven has the Sabbath mode option.Never knew what that was all about.

Shabbat mode is, b'kitzur (jewish way of saying 'in short', more or less):

If the temp for the oven is set to 350f, in regular oven it will make sure that it stays at 350f all the time, meaning that if you open the door, the temperature of the room (if under or over 350f) will affect the temperature inside the oven. This means that the electric thingies inside the oven will activate automatically and adjust the temp so it stays 350.

Shabbat mode, on the other hand, insures that the temp that is generated from inside the oven will stay an equal 350f temp, even if the door is opened, and will not activate those electronic thingies, ensuring we can open the oven on shabbat.

And I am sure you were front and center shouting that down, weren't you? I put Muslims in the same Crazy/Stupid pigeonhole as anybody who believes in magical creatures, vegans, crystal rubbers, dupes who blow their money on "organic" foods and wrestling fans.

And I am sure you were front and center shouting that down, weren't you? I put Muslims in the same Crazy/Stupid pigeonhole as anybody who believes in magical creatures, vegans, crystal rubbers, dupes who blow their money on "organic" foods and wrestling fans.

muck4doo:Another ignorant one. They are forced? But it's their right to? I think vegans are stupid. Where is the uproar in that they are getting special meals? Oh right, there isn't any. It's the same group of people these same two are constantly mad at. Sorry if you're new here. If you need more context for ballchins dwell on his goat herder pedo rhetoric. Amazing the hate that is acceptable on fark so long as it is PC.

You're right, forced was probably not the right word. So rephrase it as, Conservative Jews follow a set of laws which mandate stupid behaviors. It is their right to follow such laws, but that doesn't mean other people can't think the laws are stupid. If you think there's nobody who thinks vegans should be forced to eat animal products, or insults vegans for their personal choice, then you've never seen a thread on the subject.

More of a play on the same insult being hurled at Islam, quite a popular tactic a few years back. When did God/Allah/WTF decide that farking kids was not ok? Is that change order on the record like when Idahovah said no more polygamy because he was scared of the Federal Govt?

Hey, just 'cause you're cribbing it from somewhere doesn't make it unoffensive. Also, "Idahovah" is kinda funny.

I May Be Crazy But...:muck4doo: Amos, I know you're smarter than this. Don't go down the low road with dip shiat there. All of those meals are tax subsidized. It doesn't matter if they are vegan, kosher, halal, no sacred cow please, no sugar I am diabetic please, or anything else like that for the matter. Not everyone eats the same stuff. That you two get so irrational and hateful about one particular little group says loads for yourselves, and not the program. Especially Captain Ballschin who only wants to believe just the bad things he thinks the jews might have done in history. Otherwise they're pedo goat herders.

Oh, shove it up your ass. It doesn't make them anti-semitic to say that Jewish law mandates some ridiculous things is the modern world. Conservative Jews are forced to conform to stupid rules. And it's their right to, but that doesn't mean nobody can think they're stupid.

The pedo goat herders comment was certainly inflammatory, though.

Another ignorant one. They are forced? But it's their right to? I think vegans are stupid. Where is the uproar in that they are getting special meals? Oh right, there isn't any. It's the same group of people these same two are constantly mad at. Sorry if you're new here. If you need more context for ballchins dwell on his goat herder pedo rhetoric. Amazing the hate that is acceptable on fark so long as it is PC.

I May Be Crazy But...:I think the solution of busing it in from somewhere else is a great idea. Sounds like a way to save money, while still providing them with kosher food. It'll still probably be more expensive than not providing them with kosher food, but I also don't think that people give up their basic human rights when they have to go into assisted living.

I will agree, surely there is a place the makes kosher or halal food nearby and it can be transported to several retirement communities. That way there is enough demand and lower cost to the nursing home. HOWEVER i think they should keep some pre-made or simple foods on hand in case new admittance, after-hours, and inclement weather preventing deliveries.

Amos Quito:I May Be Crazy But...: Captain_Ballbeard: muck4doo: What did they ever accomplish anyways?

They succeeded in wiping out every man, woman and child in a few civilizations because somebody heard a voice in his head.

Look, I think religious food laws are as stupid as the next sneering, contemptuous, malodorous atheist. But let's save the outrage for when someone is trying to force us to follow their rules, not when someone decides (presumably, of their own free will) to follow them.

Or when they expect tax dollars to subsidize their religious food fetishes?

Amos, I know you're smarter than this. Don't go down the low road with dip shiat there. All of those meals are tax subsidized. It doesn't matter if they are vegan, kosher, halal, no sacred cow please, no sugar I am diabetic please, or anything else like that for the matter. Not everyone eats the same stuff. That you two get so irrational and hateful about one particular little group says loads for yourselves, and not the program. Especially Captain Ballschin who only wants to believe just the bad things he thinks the jews might have done in history. Otherwise they're pedo goat herders.

Captain_Ballbeard:I May Be Crazy But...: Look, I think religious food laws are as stupid as the next sneering, contemptuous, malodorous atheist. But let's save the outrage for when someone is trying to force us to follow their rules, not when someone decides (presumably, of their own free will) to follow them.

It's forced on us every day. I have no interest in being polite about it. AIPAC, the Christian Coalition and Salt Lake City all exist for no other reason than to force things on us. Fark em.

Right, and when Utah decides that the state government needs to get into the liquor business, and legislate a monopoly no less, every right thinking person in Utah ought to have voted out their congressman, if not more. And when ignorant, asshole fundamentalists try to make the government call gay folks less than human, they should be called out for being, well, ignorant assholes.

But when someone decides that they want to not eat a certain food for religious reasons, what business is it of yours? Are you that offended by the idea that some people don't like mushrooms also? As long as you want people to let you live your life as you see fit, you shouldn't criticize them for doing the same.

and for those who are interested, the Torah says 'That you should live [by those commandments]', meaning that your life has priority except in three situations, and you are allowed to break Torah to save it. Not just allowed, but mandated to, in fact.

ecmoRandomNumbers:I hate both these guys so much, I really don't know which one to root for. No matter who wins, he still has to be slaughtered by Obama.

I personally do not root for Newt on the basis that Obama would merk him in an election because that operates under the assumption that Newt would compete fairly. I don't want him anywhere near a ballot.

James!:sweetmelissa31: To be fair... as much as I can't stand Newt... I've met many Holocaust survivors in my day and most of them weren't Kosher. My grandparents, who were Kosher all their lives, get Meals on Wheels now and don't care that it isn't Kosher.

Are they not concerned that the Jewish God Kabbala will send them to Jewish hell?

/I don't know much about religion.

Failing to keep dietary prohibitions is more "naughty" than acctually "bad;" much less "evil." I know of at least one instance where bacon saved a jewish holocaust survivor. Which just goes to show bacon doesn't hold a grudge. It's there whenever you want, or need it.

Diogenes:What's funny is that disingenuously using Jews and antisemitism to scare people into voting for him is antisemitic in and of itself.

"Those suckers will believe anything if you toss the Holocaust in there."

That was our reaction around here. That, and 'Seriously, can't they shut up about Jews and Israel? I mean, seriously there's a whole campaign and so many issues going on. Leave us alone for five minutes'.

propasaurus:Here's the thing, though. Mitt is an adherent to a religion that has all sorts of dietary codes. Yet, he has a tin ear when it comes to the concerns of other religions.Did Mitt force-feed non-Kosher meals to observant Jews? No. But he was more concerned with saving what amounts to pocket change for him than with the needs of his elderly Jewish constituents. If a Protestant, Catholic or Jewish governor mandated doing away with, say, magic underwear to save a few bucks you can bet Mitt would be outraged. Or whatever it is that simulates outrage in his programming.

that would be interesting if the money had been specifically ear-marked for funding kosher food, rather than a general budget increase for state-funded retirement homes.

The call is referencing Romney's veto of a 2003 bill. It came at a time that some nursing homes were considering eliminating their kosher kitchens during a period of budget cuts. Their plan was to instead bus in kosher food from other locations. The bill Romney vetoed would have given an additional $600,000 in funding to nursing homes, therefore making it possible for them to continue cooking kosher food on site.