Comments on Is this where you came in?TypePad2012-11-21T01:46:59ZEric Zornhttp://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/tag:typepad.com,2003:http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/11/is-this-where-you-came-in/comments/atom.xml/Pan commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c3400d255970b2012-11-26T20:09:24Z2012-11-26T20:09:24ZPanThis thread seems pretty much dead, but I'll throw this in for whatever it's worth: IMO, the proper American attitude...<p>This thread seems pretty much dead, but I&#39;ll throw this in for whatever it&#39;s worth: IMO, the proper American attitude toward Israel and the Palestinians should be, &quot;If you want a peaceful solution to your problems, we&#39;ll work with you all day every day. If you think you can solve your problems with violence, you&#39;re on your own.&quot;</p>Richard Monahan commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee596f6af970d2012-11-25T05:00:45Z2012-11-25T05:00:45ZRichard MonahanThe Illegal-Settlements Myth David M. Phillips — December 2009 An excellent article on a subject that is far from clear...<p>The Illegal-Settlements Myth<br />
David M. Phillips — December 2009<br />
An excellent article on a subject that is far from clear cut. And after Arafat turned down Clinton&#39;s peace proposal the old quote describing Palestinian leadership as “never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity”, never rang more true. </p>
<p>This following quote set the tone and really nothing has changed.</p>
<p>&quot; At the end of August 1967, the heads of eight countries, including Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (all of which lost land as the result of their failed policy of confrontation with Israel), met at a summit in Khartoum, Sudan, and agreed to the three principles that were to guide the Arab world’s postwar stands: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel. Though many Israelis hoped to trade most if not all the conquered lands for peace, they would have no takers. This set the stage for decades of their nation’s control of these territories&quot;. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-illegal-settlements-myth/" rel="nofollow">http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-illegal-settlements-myth/</a><br />
</p>Scott commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e15575e970c2012-11-23T18:23:34Z2012-11-23T18:23:34ZScottThese political objectives include self-determination in and sovereignty over Palestine,the liberation of Palestine and establishment of a Palestinian state, either...<p>These political objectives include self-determination in and sovereignty over Palestine,the liberation of Palestine and establishment of a Palestinian state, either in place of both Israel and the Palestinian territories, or solely in the Palestinian territories.<a href="http://www.writingpearl.co.uk/lab-report/" rel="nofollow">http://www.writingpearl.co.uk/lab-report/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.writingpearl.co.uk/coursework-help/" rel="nofollow">http://www.writingpearl.co.uk/coursework-help/</a><br />
</p>blahedo commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee58339d6970d2012-11-22T19:41:11Z2012-11-22T19:41:11Zblahedohttp://www.blahedo.org/blog/I'd been looking for a while for a good timeline of recent events, and this discussion spurred me to look...<p>I&#39;d been looking for a while for a good timeline of recent events, and this discussion spurred me to look harder. Surprisingly few news outlets are actually collating that info for us to form our own opinions, but this is a good one:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/</a></p>
<p>I&#39;ll agree with the author&#39;s conclusion as to &quot;who started it&quot; (go read it, I won&#39;t spoil it for you), but in addition I&#39;ll point out that the early Palestinian attacks in this round were against military targets, not civilians. The first civilian attacks in this round of fighting were initiated by Israel against Palestinians.</p>blahedo commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e0e4086970c2012-11-22T19:11:59Z2012-11-22T19:11:59Zblahedohttp://www.blahedo.org/blog/@JL "For that matter, what square centimeter of Palestinian land has it newly occupied since 1967?" Is this a joke?...<p>@JL &quot;For that matter, what square centimeter of Palestinian land has it newly occupied since 1967?&quot;</p>
<p>Is this a joke? Are you really claiming there have been no new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land since 1967?</p>
<p>Or maybe it&#39;s a trick question: maybe your reasoning is that Israel invaded and occupied *all* of the Palestinian land in 1967, so there is no such thing as &quot;Palestinian land&quot; anymore, and any Palestinians living there are doing so because the Israelis are *so kind* as to let them stay on the land their families have lived on for centuries. Yeah, that&#39;s definitely making a point.</p>
<p>As for the Gaza pullout, I remember how optimistic I was when that happened, that they had finally broken the deadlock and we could move forward on this issue. And that was true, for maybe a couple months, and then Israel started approving more settlement expansions again. Objection overruled.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d9da5f970b2012-11-22T01:44:31Z2012-11-22T01:44:31ZJL@Wendy - Sorry, I think I mistakenly took such things as "apartheid like" to be critical.<p>@Wendy - Sorry, I think I mistakenly took such things as &quot;apartheid like&quot; to be critical. </p>Wendy commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57d15f8970d2012-11-22T00:56:16Z2012-11-22T00:56:16ZWendy@JL, I do not understand your question. I defend Israel's right to respond to terrorist attacks as they see fit.<p>@JL,</p>
<p>I do not understand your question. I defend Israel&#39;s right to respond to terrorist attacks as they see fit.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57cdd39970d2012-11-22T00:13:53Z2012-11-22T00:13:53ZJL@Wendy - Your 8:09 am post.<p>@Wendy - Your 8:09 am post.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e07fb47970c2012-11-22T00:11:07Z2012-11-22T00:11:07ZJL@JerryB - I appreciate it but as far as I am concerned, non-Jews are equally free to weigh in with...<p>@JerryB - I appreciate it but as far as I am concerned, non-Jews are equally free to weigh in with that position. I won&#39;t agree with it but it&#39;s hardly fair if I have more permission to speak my mind than others do.</p>
<p>Anyway, as I alluded to above, this is bush league stuff. If I want to get really steamed, I read the comment threads on Haaretz -- seemingly populated by American Jews. :)</p>
<p>@Wendy - Part of what makes it seem anti-Israel is the lack of any suggestion what Israel should *actually* do differently. What actions would you have Israel take in Gaza that don&#39;t amount to letting its citizens be killed?</p>Wendy commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57cd3be970d2012-11-22T00:06:01Z2012-11-22T00:06:01ZWendyOn what do you base this moral equivalency?<p>On what do you base this moral equivalency?</p>JerryB commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e07b167970c2012-11-21T23:17:29Z2012-11-21T23:17:29ZJerryB[I don't understand why seeing two sides of this political stalemate makes one anti-Israel] Two sides yes. But not two...<p>[I don&#39;t understand why seeing two sides of this political stalemate makes one anti-Israel]</p>
<p>Two sides yes. But not two morally equivalent sides. We -- non -Jews --must be very careful about that.</p>
<p>Generally speaking the Israeli’s are “in the right” and the Palestinians are “in the wrong.” There is no moral equivalency.</p>Wendy commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57c6ca1970d2012-11-21T22:44:56Z2012-11-21T22:44:56ZWendyI don't understand why seeing two sides of this political stalemate makes one anti-Israel.<p>I don&#39;t understand why seeing two sides of this political stalemate makes one anti-Israel.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57c5a15970d2012-11-21T22:29:24Z2012-11-21T22:29:24ZJLI mostly agree with Eric but not so much the binary thinkers part. One could as easily invoke the line...<p>I mostly agree with Eric but not so much the binary thinkers part. One could as easily invoke the line that those of us on the left are sometimes so open-minded that our brains fall out.</p>
<p>In addition to what Eric says, I think there is something of a liberal tendency to root for the underdog. I don&#39;t know how things lined up when Israel was the underdog. Occupying people just doesn&#39;t go over well, either. No, Israel has not been occupying Gaza for a while now. However, not everyone knows that, it is still restricting Gaza in other ways, and it is still occupying the West Bank. Much of that can be supported but you are at a disadvantage when you have to support it. It has even been argued -- and I think with some merit -- that being an occupier is corrosive to a liberal democracy. Other than among the nuts (and Israel definitely has its share), I don&#39;t think anyone in Israel actually wants this situation but the problem is finding a better alternative.</p>
<p>I think many on the left, including I, have some instinctive trouble with the concept of a nation based on a single religion. Of course, that is neither a really accurate description of the country nor a reason to prefer Israel&#39;s enemies.</p>
<p>Recently, I think part of the problem is that the Israeli and American right have tried to make support for Israel an American partisan issue. Aside from the fact that if you are going to do that, you better bet on the winner and he didn&#39;t do so, Netanyahu has caught heat in Israel for that. It is bad for the U.S. and potentially disastrous for Israel. I hate to see the U.S. left fall into the trap of opposing something because the Republicans are for it but I fault the Republicans much more. Politicizing this issue to try to win the 2012 election was shockingly shortsighted and as good a reason as any not to trust them with power. </p>JerryB commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e076560970c2012-11-21T22:18:34Z2012-11-21T22:18:34ZJerryBEric: Thanks.<p>Eric:</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>JerryB commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57bbfe8970d2012-11-21T20:30:12Z2012-11-21T20:30:12ZJerryBEric: On this one I want and will value your opinion because you have one foot in the Jewish camp...<p>Eric:</p>
<p>On this one I want and will value your opinion because you have one foot in the Jewish camp and one foot in the liberal/progressive camp.</p>
<p>How do you explain the anti-Israeli rhetoric by many of the non-Jewish liberal/progressive regulars set forth above?</p>
<p>BTW: Regarding Milton Rosenberg. He concedes that he is on the right and is not objective. But I believe his Jewish guests represent the full range of Jewish opinion on matters Jewish and on matters Israeli – but perhaps I am mistaken.</p>
<p>ZORN REPLY -- This is not a subject that has me totally engaged, but I think it&#39;s not anti-Israel so much as it is sympathy for the Palestinians...a sense that it&#39;s not black and white, that both sides have a point. They can appreciate the suffering of the Palestinans as well as of the Jews and this lack of a wholesale embrace of one side comes off to binary thinkers as &quot;anti-Israel.&quot; Just a guess.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57bbcb4970d2012-11-21T20:27:42Z2012-11-21T20:27:42ZJL@Jerry B - Not now but much of my disagreement with Jimmy G during the election was due to the...<p>@Jerry B - Not now but much of my disagreement with Jimmy G during the election was due to the fact that he seemed to be saying something similar to that.</p>
<p>Cease fire as of about 90 minutes ago.</p>JerryB commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e06c101970c2012-11-21T20:18:41Z2012-11-21T20:18:41ZJerryBKip: You say -- [But the idea that a Jew has to be a Republican in order to support Israel...<p>Kip:</p>
<p>You say -- [But the idea that a Jew has to be a Republican in order to support Israel and reject antisemitism is the province of the ignorant, cowardly, and hopelessly stupid.]</p>
<p>I agree. But no one is saying that here.</p>Kip commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d7fa8f970b2012-11-21T19:37:12Z2012-11-21T19:37:12ZKipHamas likes it when Palestinians civilians are killed when Israel retaliates--particularly women and children casualties. That's Hamas's goal. It's not...<p>Hamas likes it when Palestinians civilians are killed when Israel retaliates--particularly women and children casualties. That&#39;s Hamas&#39;s goal. It&#39;s not what the Israeli government wants, nor its citizens, nor the Palestinian people. But Hamas does, because it wants martyrdom, not peace.</p>
<p>But the idea that a Jew has to be a Republican in order to support Israel and reject antisemitism is the province of the ignorant, cowardly, and hopelessly stupid.</p>Brian commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57b664a970d2012-11-21T19:23:03Z2012-11-21T19:23:03ZBrianhttp://profile.typepad.com/promark747--"I also can't help but notice that there is almost no opposition to crippling economic sanctions against Iran, which, like...<p>--&quot;I also can&#39;t help but notice that there is almost no opposition to crippling economic sanctions against Iran, which, like the Gaza blockade, have the effect of punishing the people for the acts of their government.&quot;</p>
<p>Yes, it is difficult to watch innocent people suffer, but at some point they have to face the consequences of their elections. The majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas and are thus responsible for their actions, in at least an indirect way. Just ask the Germans whether we took it easy on them during WW2, even though all of them weren&#39;t Nazi supporters.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57b5a68970d2012-11-21T19:14:23Z2012-11-21T19:14:23ZJL@blahedo - "Israel has been consistently increasing their occupation of Palestinian land for decades." Actually, the reverse but what are...<p>@blahedo -</p>
<p>&quot;Israel has been consistently increasing their occupation of Palestinian land for decades.&quot;</p>
<p>Actually, the reverse but what are facts? Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally in 2005. What corresponding land area has it occupied? For that matter, what square centimeter of Palestinian land has it newly occupied since 1967? Maybe something in the Yom Kippur War that I am overlooking but I don&#39;t think so. Southern Lebanon by some interpretation? Maybe but that&#39;s not Palestinian and Israel isn&#39;t still there, either.</p>
<p>&quot;When has Hamas had the opportunity to put its fighters at risk to protect Israeli civilians?&quot;</p>
<p>Well, I would think that if you were actually trying to attack military targets in Israel with inaccurate rockets, you would choose firing positions selected for likely success in putting the rockets on those targets, instead of for their proximity to human shields. But, of course, that is not the goal.</p>
<p>Heck, putting its fighters at risk to protect *Palestinian* civilians would be a nice start.</p>
<p>On the &quot;absurd disproportion in deaths and casualties&quot; - Israel is clearly trying to protect its civilians from enemy fire. It builds bomb shelters. It closes schools when there is an elevated risk. Etc. By the most charitable possible interpretation, Hamas is merely not trying to protect its civilians. Obviously, Israel enjoys technical and financial advantages (and, no, not primarily due to U.S. aid) and that helps it protect its citizens. No question. However, it also deploys those resources -- at cost of Israeli treasure and, almost inevitably, eventually Israeli blood in the current conflict -- to *reduce* Palestinian civilian casualties. What do you think that disproportion would look like if Israel were even indifferent to such civilian casualties -- let alone, *trying* to cause them as Hamas is (on both sides, actually)?</p>
<p>If you have a better solution, maybe you can join Pan&#39;s cabinet when she gets elected Israeli PM.</p>JakeH commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e065a48970c2012-11-21T19:05:09Z2012-11-21T19:05:09ZJakeHThe claim that Hamas is merely responding to difficult conditions is not true. Hamas is an ideologically-driven, Islamist, terrorist organization,...<p>The claim that Hamas is merely responding to difficult conditions is not true. Hamas is an ideologically-driven, Islamist, terrorist organization, which targets civilians and celebrates their deaths, would love nothing so much as Israel&#39;s total destruction (because Jews have no business in the region), cares little for the population it was elected to lead (as evidenced by its actions which recklessly endanger the population), is virulently anti-Semitic, does not share anything like the commitment to human rights that we take for granted, and is using rocket fire strategically to gain legitimacy through terror -- a strategy that may end up working. Sorry, these are bad guys. If Gaza were under the control of a moderate Palestinian faction, as the West Bank (sort of) is, there would be no rocket fire -- some thousand per year since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 -- and no military response, and more open borders, and a greater possibility for peace. I agree with much of the criticism of Israel concerning West Bank settlements. Israel should not take steps at odds with an eventual two-state solution roughly along the &#39;67 borders. And I&#39;m no Likudnik, nor do I think that criticism of Israel is out-of-bounds or anti-Semitic. But I reject efforts to portray the parties as equally morally comporomised, or to portray Israel as generally worse. It is defending itself in response to incessant rocket attacks which none of us would tolerate nearly to the degree that Israel has if they were landing in our backyards.</p>
<p>I find civilian deaths heart-wrenching, and the deaths of children alarming -- even though Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, while its adversary hopes and tries for them on the other side -- methods not saved by the fact that Hamas is bad it, better at sowing terror than killing people. (When a rocket hits a school, Hamas is not let off the hook because school was canceled due to rocket fire.)</p>
<p>I can&#39;t help but notice, though, that we Americans barely notice the civilians killed by our own drones, and, instead of condemning such methods, we generally laud them as a way to attack terrorists with relative precision without endangering troops and others in a conventional war. I also can&#39;t help but notice that there is almost no opposition to crippling economic sanctions against Iran, which, like the Gaza blockade, have the effect of punishing the people for the acts of their government. And, even if some on the left raise those questions, they tend not to be pressed with the same level of urgency and outrage that attends liberals&#39; criticism of Israel. That&#39;s not to say that we shouldn&#39;t notice civilian casualties or hardships suffered by innocents, wherever and however they are caused. But I think that some liberals are too quick to sympathize with the Palestinian cause, basically because they are not really sold, more than 50 years later, on Israel&#39;s right to exist as a Jewish state.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d7c9db970b2012-11-21T19:00:33Z2012-11-21T19:00:33ZJL@Jerry B - Thanks. I have been remembering some of my exchanges with Jimmy G over the past few days....<p>@Jerry B - Thanks. I have been remembering some of my exchanges with Jimmy G over the past few days. Some of what I see out of the left is, in fact, appalling. This thread actually bothers me less than some of what I have read in the comment threads on the English-language Haaretz (major Israeli newspaper) site. :)</p>
<p>I take some comfort in believing that Jimmy G is wrong in characterizing the left as a whole. From what I understand, a wide-range of elected officials from the progressive end of Chicago and Illinois politics spoke or were represented at yesterday&#39;s downtown rally in support of Israel. The resolution to support Israel passed the Senate 100-0. President Obama has been very strong. There basically is no mainstream U.S. political support for the Hamas position in the current conflict.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t know, of course, but I will venture a guess that some people not so supportive of Israel -- due to antisemitism, objections to Israel&#39;s true failings in some areas, or whatever -- are going on autopilot here and not realizing that while severe criticisms of Israel certainly are understandable at times, this isn&#39;t one of those times. Not that anyone probably will ever call them on it but they are really getting out on a limb on this one.</p>JerryB commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e063c5c970c2012-11-21T18:47:22Z2012-11-21T18:47:22ZJerryBJL: Furthermore, I was in the audience when Michael Orin –Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. was speaking last spring. Orin...<p>JL:</p>
<p>Furthermore, I was in the audience when Michael Orin –Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. was speaking last spring.</p>
<p>Orin said that Israelis and Jews worldwide are aware of recent attempts to “delegitimize” Israel – his word not mind – by rhetoric such as we see above.<br />
</p>JerryB commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e0630ca970c2012-11-21T18:38:35Z2012-11-21T18:38:35ZJerryBJL: I am not Jewish. About 80% of what I know about what Jews think comes from listening to Extension...<p>JL:</p>
<p>I am not Jewish. About 80% of what I know about what Jews think comes from listening to Extension 720 with Milton Rosenberg for almost 40 years. Rosenberg has had on a broad range of Jewish opinion over the years. Rosenberg, many of his guests, and Jimmy G – a Jewish gentlemen – believe that the American left is generally anti-Semitic.</p>
<p>I am against using the terms “anti-Semitic” “racist” and “homophobe” for the mild stuff.</p>
<p>But like you I find much of the anti-Israeli rhetoric above misinformed, willfully blind, and shameful.</p>
<p>Generally speaking the Israeli’s are “in the right” and the Palestinians are “in the wrong.” There is no moral equivalency. I am not as informed about Israeli matters as you. But I was informed of Polish matters when Poland was behind the Iron Curtain.</p>
<p>Thus I urge you and other Jewish commenters to take the fight to those above who are speaking shamefully.</p>
<p>ZORN REPLY -- Rosenberg&#39;s move, I&#39;ll put it that way, to the right of the political spectrum has been notable. To think of him as an objective broker on this or any other topic is wrongheaded. He has his agendae and he pursues them with the guests he has on.<br />
The left is less Zionist than the right, perhaps, but most Jews I know -- including my own wife -- are left of center. Exit polls showed 69 percent of the Jewish vote went to Obama. <br />
</p>blahedo commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e06104c970c2012-11-21T18:13:38Z2012-11-21T18:13:38Zblahedohttp://www.blahedo.org/blog/@JL: When has Hamas even had the opportunity to put its fighters at risk to protect Israeli civilians? Aside from...<p>@JL: When has Hamas even had the opportunity to put its fighters at risk to protect Israeli civilians?</p>
<p>Aside from the fact that Israel has been consistently increasing their occupation of Palestinian land for decades, both in degree and kind, for the last four years they have closed the borders to Gaza (and pressured Egypt to do likewise on the small portion of the Gaza border that Israel doesn&#39;t control outright). They have blocked many sorts of supplies, including some food, most construction materials, and nearly all fuel, from coming in, as well as blocking nearly everything that Gazans might be able to trade with other countries from getting out. This tactic is called a &quot;siege&quot;, and it is very much aggressive and an act of war even when shots aren&#39;t actively being fired. The absurd disproportion in death and casualties between Israel and Palestine in this conflict---on any time scale you care to look at---gives the lie to the idea that Israel&#39;s role in any of this is merely &quot;self defense&quot;.</p>Pan commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee57a9add970d2012-11-21T16:51:37Z2012-11-21T16:51:37ZPanMy point is that the Hamas militants or terrorists or whatever you want to call them did not just roll...<p>My point is that the Hamas militants or terrorists or whatever you want to call them did not just roll out of bed one morning and decide to start firing rockets at Israel. The population of Gaza was pushed into desperation by an unendurable and brutal occupation/blockade. If Israel wants to retaliate, fine, but I get really tired of hearing Israel and its supporters consistently and stridently claiming the moral high ground. Israel&#39;s hands are no cleaner than those of Hamas, in my opinion.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e058b14970c2012-11-21T16:31:39Z2012-11-21T16:31:39ZJL@Pan - Is your point that you have some ideas about how better to attack combatants without killing the non-combatants...<p>@Pan - Is your point that you have some ideas about how better to attack combatants without killing the non-combatants they intentionally hide behind (in which case, the IDF may have a suggestion e-mail address somewhere) or that Israel should be prepared to put up with anything that cannot be countered without putting non-combatants at risk?</p>
<p>If there is a ground invasion -- and one of the rare points on which Bibi Netanyahu and I probably agree is a hope that there will not need to be -- there are going to be Israeli parents who bury their children because the IDF puts its soldiers at risk doing things in ways that attempt to reduce Palestinian casualties. I challenge the they-are-both-the-same or Israel-is-worse people to find me examples of Hamas putting its fighters at risk to protect Israeli civilians.</p>
<p>I&#39;d also like to hear what cause anyone here thinks would justify planting a bomb on a CTA bus.</p>Brian commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d6ee5d970b2012-11-21T16:10:21Z2012-11-21T16:10:21ZBrianhttp://profile.typepad.com/promark747Pan, Yes, but that is going to happen when the rocket launchers are intentionally placed in civilian areas. I know...<p>Pan,</p>
<p>Yes, but that is going to happen when the rocket launchers are intentionally placed in civilian areas. I know some disagree, but I think the US (in Iraq) and Israel have been very careful in trying to minimize civilian casualties and even damage to infrastructure.</p>Pan commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d6cf40970b2012-11-21T15:47:16Z2012-11-21T15:47:16ZPanBrian, the Israelis may not be "targeting" them, but they're killing them anyway.<p>Brian, the Israelis may not be &quot;targeting&quot; them, but they&#39;re killing them anyway. </p>Brian commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e04fd14970c2012-11-21T14:47:10Z2012-11-21T14:47:10ZBrianhttp://profile.typepad.com/promark747People who believe Israel is targeting innocent civilans and children are simply ignorant.<p>People who believe Israel is targeting innocent civilans and children are simply ignorant.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee579e387970d2012-11-21T14:33:06Z2012-11-21T14:33:06ZJLI am going to resist the temptation to get drawn into an extended conversation here, especially with people who don't...<p>I am going to resist the temptation to get drawn into an extended conversation here, especially with people who don&#39;t even know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza, think Israel invades Gaza at will, and think *this* is the time to complain about Israel monitoring what comes in. (Clue: The statement you were looking for is &quot;I now understand what Israel is trying to keep out and withdraw any idiotic complaint I have had about Israel checking imports into Gaza.&quot;)</p>
<p>I hope you at least had the moral consistency to dance on 9/11 along with the people you now support. By that I mean Hamas and other terrorists, not those Palestinians who want something better and truly are being treated horribly by their leadership. I do feel for them -- and so do many Israelis.</p>Wendy commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e04cbc7970c2012-11-21T14:09:46Z2012-11-21T14:09:46ZWendy-- You'll never have peace between two different ethnic peoples when each side believes the other doesn't have the right...<p>-- You&#39;ll never have peace between two different ethnic peoples when each side believes the other doesn&#39;t have the right to exist, and both believe they have a divine right to the land they occupy. The extra factor here is Israel&#39;s almost apartheid like control over the Palestinians and their territories. On the other side is the use of terror to oppose Israel&#39;s domination.</p>
<p>Would a Palestinian State solve these problems? I doubt it; that inborn hatred will still be there. So, the Middle East version of the Hatfields and McCoys will continue on for the millennium and beyond. The United States must show support for Israel against terrorist attacks, but otherwise should stay away from this endless conflict.</p>Dienne commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d6433c970b2012-11-21T14:04:53Z2012-11-21T14:04:53ZDienneMuch of this is repetitive from the other link (my one criticism of Greenwald is that he tends to perseverate),...<p>Much of this is repetitive from the other link (my one criticism of Greenwald is that he tends to perseverate), but it is worth reading as well: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/17/israel-gaza-us-policy" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/17/israel-gaza-us-policy</a></p>Dienne commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e04c39f970c2012-11-21T14:02:39Z2012-11-21T14:02:39ZDienneGee, what a surprise, Glenn Greenwald agrees with me (but he says it better): http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/21/israel-gaza-us-support<p>Gee, what a surprise, Glenn Greenwald agrees with me (but he says it better): <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/21/israel-gaza-us-support" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/21/israel-gaza-us-support</a></p>Greg J. commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e04b8ba970c2012-11-21T13:54:56Z2012-11-21T13:54:56ZGreg J.Our government should give Israel support without being public about it and otherwise not interfere with or criticize its defense...<p>Our government should give Israel support without being public about it and otherwise not interfere with or criticize its defense of its country even when it involves attacks outside of its borders. The entities opposed to Israel will never be friendly with the US and it&#39;s in our strategic interest to let Israel go about its business. In my opinion, the fault lies with the Palestinians and their supporters and they continue to suffer the consequences. This isn&#39;t going away or improving in any of our lifetimes.</p>Jen commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee579878c970d2012-11-21T13:25:28Z2012-11-21T13:25:28ZJenAs I listened to news on the radio yesterday with my 10 yo in the car I had a flashback...<p>As I listened to news on the radio yesterday with my 10 yo in the car I had a flashback to being in elementary school and hearing nearly the exact same reports on the radio (sub out Hamas and in PLO) 40 years ago. </p>
<p>How many other politically huge things have come and gone in that time while this situation remains intractable? </p>td commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d5f572970b2012-11-21T13:08:06Z2012-11-21T13:08:06ZtdIf you want to understand the realities of the situation that the US media don't report, you cant just take...<p>If you want to understand the realities of the situation that the US media don&#39;t report, you cant just take the word of politicians and pundits. You have to read the scholars of Middle East:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.juancole.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.juancole.com/</a></p>
<p>Yes, Juan Cole writes with a point of view, but you have to read him consistently, because only then can you come to judge his credibility on the issues.</p>
<p>That said, here is a recent post that bears on the immediate discussion:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/gazas-health-crisis-and-israels-crimes-against-humanity.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/gazas-health-crisis-and-israels-crimes-against-humanity.html</a></p>Dienne commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee578f282970d2012-11-21T11:42:44Z2012-11-21T11:42:44ZDienneThank you, td. I'm really sick of the false equivalence of "both sides are guilty". If we Americans were ever...<p>Thank you, td. I&#39;m really sick of the false equivalence of &quot;both sides are guilty&quot;. If we Americans were ever forced to live under conditions like the Palestinians live under, you bet your behind we&#39;d be firing rockets and whatever else we could get our hands on. The bottom line is that Israel is the one occupying Palestinian lands, not the other way around. And they are actively trying to choke off nearly all economic life for the Palestinians, they needlessly harass and humiliate the Palestinians, they&#39;ve divided the land in ways that make it nearly impossible for the Palestinians to get around (even to hospitals in medical emergencies), they target civilian targets such as the sports stadium (twice), and they kill hundreds of Palestinians and destroy hundreds of Palestinian homes for every scratch to a single Israeli citizen.</p>
<p>Christians, whose God commands them to forgive and love their enemies, should be appalled by Israel&#39;s behavior. Even by Jewish standards their behavior is appalling. The Hebrew Bible says an eye for an eye, not a hundred eyes for one eye. Yet because Israel is strategically important to the end-times nutcases, the U.S. blindly and unconditionally supports everything Israel does (and, yes, that includes Barack Obama). Although I&#39;m agnostic, there are many times when I hope that ultimate Biblical justice is true. Jesus told his followers how he would sort the sheep from the goats: &quot;As you do to the least of these....&quot;</p>
<p>And here we sit innocently blinking our eyes and wondering just how those nasty Palestinians can be so evil and why so many of them become &quot;Terrorists&quot;.</p>
<p>BTW, in case you want to just paint me as &quot;anti-Semitic&quot;, there are plenty of Israeli citizens and Jews all over the world who feel the same way. Are they anti-Semitic too?</p>ChiDude commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e023c2e970c2012-11-21T07:15:45Z2012-11-21T07:15:45ZChiDudeSometimes one must wonder if both sides prefer the martyr status that comes from supposed victimhood, to actual peace in...<p>Sometimes one must wonder if both sides prefer the martyr status that comes from supposed victimhood, to actual peace in the region.</p>
<p>After all, who would pay attention to poor little them, who would shower them with obscene amounts of money if they lived alongside each other peacefully?</p>td commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017c33d383f7970b2012-11-21T06:51:15Z2012-11-21T06:51:15Ztd@JL: A couple of things: First, Israel is still an occupying force despite the withdrawal from Gaza: "Despite Israel's withdrawal...<p><br />
@JL: A couple of things: First, Israel is still an occupying force despite the withdrawal from Gaza: &quot;Despite Israel&#39;s withdrawal of settlements and bases in 2005, the Gaza Strip remains occupied, both effectively and legally – and is recognised as such by the UN. Israel is in control of Gaza&#39;s land and sea borders, territorial waters and natural resources, airspace, power supply and telecommunications. It has blockaded the strip since Hamas took over in 2006-7, preventing the movement of people, materials, and food supplies in and out of the territory – even calculating the 2,279 calories per person that would keep Gazans on an exemplary &quot;diet&quot;. And it continues to invade the strip at will.&quot; <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/20/palestinians-have-right-defend-themselves" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/20/palestinians-have-right-defend-themselves</a></p>
<p>As for your analogy about Michigan and Texas, you&#39;ve got the power dynamic wrong. A more accurate hypothetical scenario would go something like this: Let&#39;s say Michigan was its own country and the rest of the states were a combination of neighboring countries with religious and ethnic ties to MI. Canada had unilaterally taken control of Detroit and, in response to Michiganders fighting back with comparatively ineffectual arms, Canada assassinates Detroit public officials, the Canadian air force bombs the city, the navy shells the city from Lake St Clair, and the army shells from across the border. Oh, and to extend the analogy, Canada has also driven their fellow Michiganders out of northern Michigan, built towns on their land, moved Canadian citizens in, and are building a 20-foot concrete wall to separate their people from the Michiganders whose land they have taken. Not surprisingly, they are not happy. </p>
<p>Are the Michiganders justified in fighting back? Maybe. Are the Palestinians justified in fighting back against the Israeli occupation of their land? That is not the same thing as saying that what Hamas does is right. It&#39;s not. But the context matters. And the power balance matters. Israel holds the power and they could change the reality if they really wanted to. What&#39;s more, not only are Israel&#39;s actions not in ISRAEL&#39;S best interest, they are not on OUR best interest. </p>
<p>After 9/11, one of the questions we asked as a country was &quot;Why do they hate us?&quot; Unfortunately, the largely unchallenged answer was the vague &quot;they hate our freedoms&quot; when the truth is that they hate our policies--our historical support for oppressive governments in the region, our military bases in their countries, and our unconditional support of Israel&#39;s occupation of Palestinian land. We do ourselves no favors when our reps in Congress pass ever more one-sided resolutions supporting Israel&#39;s right to do as it pleases, with little or no acknowledgement of the rights of the Palestinians. Much of the rest of the world, including a large % of Israel&#39;s own citizens, sees the situation for what it is. Why can&#39;t we?<br />
</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee5765cdb970d2012-11-21T05:05:00Z2012-11-21T05:05:00ZJL@Pan - Certainly not every play but I don't see any ambiguity in this one. Hamas is using its own...<p>@Pan - Certainly not every play but I don&#39;t see any ambiguity in this one. Hamas is using its own citizens as human shields to shoot rockets at Israeli civilians from land that Israel no longer occupies. Israel is going to great lengths to minimize Palestinian non-combatant casualties.</p>
<p>Suppose Texas or Michigan were receiving rocket fire from across a border. What should/would we do?</p>Pan commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee576011a970d2012-11-21T03:57:12Z2012-11-21T03:57:12ZPanOrdinarily I dislike the plague-on-both-your-houses to situations like this because I think it's excessively cynical and intellectually lazy. But in...<p>Ordinarily I dislike the plague-on-both-your-houses to situations like this because I think it&#39;s excessively cynical and intellectually lazy. But in the Palestine-Israel conflict I think both sides really are to blame, and equally despicable in their own way. Both have elements who believe that their decades-old grievances, carefully nurtured by self-serving politicians, permit them to slaughter whoever of the other group falls into their hands.</p>
<p>The only rational course I see is to step back as much as possible, let them go at it and tell the loser not to cry about it. That doesn&#39;t mean using aid to Israel (or Egypt) as a club, but it doesn&#39;t mean automatically backing Israel&#39;s every play either.</p>JL commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d3e00e8ab970c2012-11-21T03:28:03Z2012-11-21T03:28:03ZJLThere are peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Excepting Iran (admittedly a big exception) the threats to Israel are no...<p>There are peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Excepting Iran (admittedly a big exception) the threats to Israel are no longer existential. Those are differences.</p>Skellig commented on 'Is this where you came in?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee5756eda970d2012-11-21T02:10:56Z2012-11-21T02:10:56ZSkelligWhenever tensions in the Middle East flare up, I find myself thinking about what might have been if Yitzhak Rabin...<p>Whenever tensions in the Middle East flare up, I find myself thinking about what might have been if Yitzhak Rabin lived. He seemed genuinely interested in achieving a lasting peace and, more importantly, also seemed to get the Palestinians interested as well.</p>