Labour leader pushing for his best policy and strategy course – against opponents including some on left

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has gone to bat today for Labour members and the 99% to put Labour on its best course for the coming general election and beyond.

Corbyn’s preferences on Brexit are straightforward:

respect the 2016 referendum result and Labour’s 2017 manifesto promise to enact it

negotiate a Labour Brexit deal – protecting jobs and agreeing a customs union, which the EU has already said it would welcome

campaign to leave on the basis of Labour’s deal

Certain figures on the left – some more obvious than others – have been continually pressing for Labour to abandon its 2017 promise and go ‘full remain’. Those same figures – like the vacuous LibDems – were previously pressing for a referendum, but now Corbyn has agreed to one they are moving the goalposts further.

The referendum compromise was a major concession by Corbyn – against his determined and expressed wishes – to hold the Labour movement together. A full-remain move, abandoning the fifty-two percent of voters who chose ‘leave’ in 2016, is a mistake Corbyn is resisting in spite of coordinated pressure by figures that include some supposedly on the left.

The battle culminates at today’s meeting of Labour’s National Executive Committee (NEC) and then at Shadow Cabinet. At its last meeting, NEC members accepted the ‘TULO’ position – along similar lines to Corbyn’s – but then the Shadow Cabinet accepted only part and some members briefed a contrary position.

If Corbyn wins his battle, Labour will announce that it will campaign for ‘Labour leave’ in a referendum – and the vast majority of the grassroots will celebrate and fully back it. If not, it will be in spite of Corbyn’s efforts.

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“If Corbyn wins his battle, Labour will announce that it will campaign for ‘Labour leave’ in a referendum – and the vast majority of the grassroots will celebrate and fully back it. If not, it will be in spite of Corbyn’s efforts

This is somewhat at odds with the views of the majority on the Labour Party’s membership.

If you won’t allow steve h to speak for the lot of you then that’s ‘undemocratic’.

However, to allow watson to act like a gobshite to get you your 2nd ref with a remain option is perfectly acceptable – either by not taking it to congress and/or by watson’s squealing and threatening to do more PR damage to the party.

Florence 17/09/2019 at 11:38 am“I think you shouldn’t speak for us all. Leave that to Corbyn”

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the majority of the membership support Labour campaigning to leave the EU, however there is a mass of evidence available that the membership want a CV and to remain in the EU.

”There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the majority of the membership support Labour campaigning to leave the EU, however there is a mass of evidence available that the membership want a CV and to remain in the EU.”

Well seeing as watson did your shithouse work for you, I guess your precious 70% didn’t actually NEED to VOTE to pass it through congress did they?

Another one what happily accepted the ill-begotten inch (that watson brought by shithouse means) but now demands the mile.

‘Childish rant’ he says – Yet you’re the one supported watson’s spoilt bastard shithouse manner in getting the 2nd ref/remain option shoehorned into policy WITHOUT A VOTE and now you want to abolish brexit altogether despite there being NO wish to by the electorate.

Oh and you persistently & conveniently omit – in fact you DENY that respecting the referendum result was n the 2017 manifesto.

Gonna tell us then WHY watson has been acting like a knobhead as per which led to the COMPROMISE (capitulation) that was introduced in JULY THIS YEAR – NOT AFTER VOTE AT CONGRESS?

Find me a link with the VOTE to have remain as an option because it wasn’t in the manifesto and it wasn’t in those links I sent you a few months back from labour. org that said ‘Britian IS LEAVING the EU’ – the ones you claimed were invalid as the appeared to be some sort of ‘manifesto draft’ or some such and that they ”weren’t official labour communiques and nobody reads obscure websites’

You’d do well NOT to bullshit me or anyone else. Unlike you, my head doesn’t button up at the back.

The Toffee (597) 17/09/2019 at 1:17 pm“Gonna tell us then WHY watson has been acting like a knobhead as per which led to the COMPROMISE (capitulation) that was introduced in JULY THIS YEAR – NOT AFTER VOTE AT CONGRESS?

I suggest you read the link I posted in full and all will be revealed.

“Find me a link with the VOTE to have remain as an option because it wasn’t in the manifesto and it wasn’t in those links I sent you a few months back from labour. org that said ‘Britian IS LEAVING the EU’ – the ones you claimed were invalid as the appeared to be some sort of ‘manifesto draft’ or some such and that they ”weren’t official labour communiques and nobody reads obscure websites’

Don’t be silly you can’t have a referendum with only one option.
As I pointed out at the time Labour Policy is decided at conference and policy decisions taken at conference override all previous policy decisions, statements and manifestos.

As others here point out , we don’t actually know what the majority of our general rank and file membership think on this issue. Small sample polls for the Guardian by YouGov certainly won’t tell us . However, certainly regarding our ACTIVIST membership, the sort of members who go to our annual Conferences as Delegates – if last year’s Conference was any guide , those Delegates WILL sadly be overwhelmingly voting for a very hard pro Remain stance . Many of them would probably mimic the new Lib Dem ‘tear up article 50 – ignore the 2016 Referendum entirely’ policy if they dared.

So with Conference almost upon us , what Jeremy currently wants , or what he can agree with the NEC just before Conference, will most likely be swept aside by the fanatically pro EU Left Liberal utterly pro Remain Delegate majority . The most likely outcome of this is that our official Labour position will be to have a Manifesto , which we will have to sell to our solidly Leave working class heartlands, in which Labour not only promises a second Referendum on the any new deal a Labour Government negotiates with Brussels (a betrayal of the 2016 Referendum in itself) , but most likely will also promise to campaign for REMAIN against its own deal ! OR, Harold Wilson-style, Labour will have no official position on its very own negotiated deal, but will leave it to Labour Party members , including the Cabinet , to be on opposite sides during the Referendum Campaign ( Benn versus Roy Jenkins style) ! Even though Labour will have negotiated that Brexit Deal on offer against Remain !

This is what is called a ‘buggers muddle’ and will go down like the proverbial ‘bucket of cold sick’ with our working class Leave voters in the North, Midlands, and Wales. Poor isolated Jeremy, the only true Bennite socialist left in the Shadow Cabinet – and actually one of a dwindling band of socialists left in our PLP and entire Party !

That’s because many are Greens and libdems joined the party to get themselves in the frame to be delegated last year .Ordinary members did not know what was going on,but they do this year. Any pro remain delegate will be watched very closely especially during the delegate meeting and if Starmer and TSSA union boss Manuel Cortes under the watchful influence of Caroline Lucas and the greens play their power tricks again the members will be ready to take them on, remain or leave and all of us in between .Any self respecting organisation would have cancelled the meeting after a couple of hours and resit it the next day but Starmer had the sight of a turn in his grasp and he whipped the delegates to exhaustion levels https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-meeting-conference-brexit-policy-second-referendum-general-election-motion-wording-delegates-a8552606.html

Damn did I miss the ballot where members were asked? We do have the polls of course richly dominated by the right and paid for by the RW millionaires ? Or perhaps its the polls by our lovely pro remain media such as sky news or the evening standard ? I voted to remain and lost .Its time we showed some respect to the winners and our democratic system by honouring the vote . I am with Corbyn and hope he has the numbers with the unions to face down the selfish self-serving remainers

I cannot see how anybody who believes in democracy can criticise Corbyn’s position. It respects the result of the EU ref and offers the opportunity for the original vote to be ratified by the electorate but this time, it will be with the knowledge of what the withdrawal agreement will contain.

I’m talking about what conference will decide on EURef result not Corbyn letting PLP campaign how they want which they are already doing anyway. A leader that has to “save face” is nothing more than a figure head, a totem, there comes a point when members have to realize what Corbyn stands for is not what LP in practice stands for…

My replies keep going into the ether, perhaps I am blocked in some way?

I am talking about what conference will decide on EURef result policy. PLP are already campaigning for what they personally want openly and have been for ages. A leader that has to “save face” is nothing more than a figure head, a totem. It’s time LP members realised that what Corbyn stands for doesn’t translate to what LP stands for and what LP does in practise.
Some of us not involved in nor consumed by the party or a particular faction of it see this clearly.

It’s time for the stooges on here to clearly state what brexit policy they support.

Corbyn’s or watson’s. There’s no ‘centre ground’ for the centrists to be had, here.

Although most of us know the answer, it’s up to them to have the cojones to confirm where they stand on the issue, rather than obfuscate further.

So they can either state who’s version they support or forever be burdened (rightfully) with the shame of their complicity in watson’s shithouse behaviour by their refusal to condemn him for undermining policy, AND democracy.

What a cock up. Labour’s position, as it was in the referendum, should be unambiguously to remain. Stop this nonsense of trying to satisfy everyone, especially the right wing union leaders, it cannot be done. And don’t keep saying ‘respect the referendum’ it was over three years ago and the population now has a much clearer idea of the leave consequences. We should be leading in this debate not being blown about by the wind.

Toffee, you’ve still never answered the question; in a vote which was held over three years ago, how do you know 17.4 million voters still want to leave? In your version of democracy are people not allowed to change their mind?

Here we’ve just witnessed jack t epitomising just about everything skwawky describes those twunts as being about.

They’ve had their inch RE: 2nd ref/remain option; now they want the whole f**king mile.

And jack t’s freely admitted he’s on board with them – demonstrably going against Corbyn, what WAS party policy before watson changed it with his shithouse tricks threatening PR, AND against democracy by it not being passed at congress…You know? Where the 70% could’ve at least VOTED on the matter.

Let us hope that Corbyn’ s compromise prevails. Otherwise, in the general election Johnson-Farage will be able to say with some justification that they are the only ones respecting the EU referendum result. Labour cannot allow a stick that big to beat them with.

SteveH, surely support in the party and in the country will depend on the detailed explanation which will hopefully follow today’s meeting – and on the nature of the Labour Leave policy that we’d campaign on?
I’d like to read the details before deciding.

Well I Will follow Corbyns lead and not undermine the first socialist Labour party leader in my memory which goes back a long time being nearly 70 and not senile yet!.No election or referendum can be taken seriously ever again if you sweep aside the referendum result.We have a policy and we stick with Corbyn or walk away from a democratic socialist Labour party and a new democracy for Britain.. .Have some faith in Corbyn!

100% agree with you Joseph I’m all for following Corbyn and his lead and others would do well to help support him rather than undermining within the plp and the Party . The options put before ius gives everybody the chance to vote again no matter what way originally voted it takes account of leavers and remainers I don’t see that there’s any problem with this policy

I, and the evidence suggests most of the membership, will have no problem whatsoever with the choices given but when most of the frontbench, the PLP and the membership want to stay in the EU I can’t see a policy of supporting leave going down well or attracting much support.

Ignoring the membership will be counter productive, we need to go into a GE with the membership enthused by a policy we can all support.

Steve yes I know Steve and agree,,, BUT we have to try and keep as many options open and to appeal to as many voters as possible on this one topic. I know on the door step canvassing , soon I hope , we have to have every weapon at our disposal . We can try and make the case for all the great policies that Labour have ,however , I think it would be a real short conversation on the doorstep of a Leaver if all we have is Remain.We need as many opportunities to “sell” , cos that’s what we are doing we are Labours salesmen/women, “selling” Labour to the public as possible .

We are I think basically on the same page with this but we must also embrace Remain.

I think that what appears to have emerged as the default policy of letting the PLP do their own thing (the Wilson option) could serve us well. We will be selling the fact that because we are the only party giving them realistic options we are the only party respecting both Leave and Remain, it will be their choice.

Rob..undermining the leader of the Labour party as become a bad habbit set in motion by Watson and the chicken coup fanatics and now considered by many including those in the shadow cabinet to brief the press mimicking Tom Watson and is supporters.I personally don’t have strong feelings for either veiw on the EU debate,but I am getting tired of the continual undermining of Jeremy Corbyn by people within the Labour party who must realise that they not only damage Corbyn but damage the chances of a Labour government.Whats so wrong with trying to give both sides of the debate a chance to vote.We can’t insist on real change in our party and our country if we don’t give both sides an option.You must realise that the enemy within will use anything to reverse the Labour party back to a right wing establishment PARTY

” only party respecting both Leave and Remain, it will be their choice.”

Exactly my point Joseph/Steve . Give them the choice , what could be fairer on the doorstep conversation , this opens the door ( forgive pun) to talk about the policies more broadly.There is one exception imo and that is the die hard no deal Brexiter .I’d give them a copy of Yellowhammer , walk away & spend my time on those that have a brain cell. 😉

Anyone that thinks sacrificing the basic principle of a democratic vote by over ruling it – is simply not democratic.

This whole debate has been skewed to promote the Libdems as the real opposition to the Tories on one single issue, when in reality they are one and same as the Tories. The Tories of course have created this whole drama which distracts the public eye away from what the Tories are actually doing and the impact their policies on ordinary peoples lives.

We should never forget the Libdems kept these Tories in office, and are therefore guilty of bringing this whole charade upon the nation.

The EU is an economic and social basket case, Germany is currently heading back into recession, that has little or nothing to do with Brexit but everything to do with the Euro Zone the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties, yet Remainers want to cling to it, like clinging on to the decks of the Titanic.

Just because the Tories want to get out of Europe and jump into the arms of Trump, doesn’t mean there aren’t good reasons for leaving.

Most people just sat back and took no notice of what Tory politicians actually signed us up to with these treaties, and now don’t even understand that everything going wrong on both sides of the channel are in fact linked.

This world renowned economist and political scientist actually explained this situation in 2016 speaking in Athens live:

Corbyn and Starmer have already brokered an acceptable ‘Leave’ deal..having gone to the EU at the very start.

It is a deal which fully respects voters’ decisions, yet also takes account as far as possible, of both sides of the argument, protecting citizens both of UK and EU.

No dramatics, only plain and fair dealings. No ‘proroguing’ no ‘great green Hulk’ just plain, fair dealings, to get the most workable deal possible, to suit all of us.. because we all have rights – whether ‘remain’ or ‘leave’ or ‘couldn’t care less’ or ‘haven’t yet had a vote’.

Except we will NOT GET Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour into Government IF certain worse-than-useless twunts keep moving the goalposts on the remain issue and allow watson & co to undermine democracy AND the party line with their shithouse behaviour thereby further confounding the general public’s perception of what the party’s stance on brexit actually is.

If Corbyn was allowed to explain it without the likes of watson (egged on by your silence and indifference over his behaviour) maybe you’d have an idea.

Maybe the general public would, too. And they’re what matter – not you, or your precious 70% of 500k, or whatever insignificance of a number number it is.

As it stands, I agree with what Corbyn’s striving to achieve. I’ve even given ground as far as a CV goes. But I’m not grateful to slimy, oleaginous twunts like watson & starmer – supported by you – getting their inch and now wanting the mile and further confounding the public’s perception of policy.

You asked, I furnished you with an answer but after a few years or more am STILL to have that courtesy reciprocated. .

But then again, it’s par for the course from a clueless blert like yourself who once posted that it was remainer types gave us the NHS & welfare state, you monumental weirdo that’d make ed balls appear ‘normal’..

“You asked, I furnished you with an answer but” not to the question question asked.

Could you tell us what in your opinion the Labour Party’s stance on Brexit actually is?Perhaps while you are at it you could also get around to answering a question you have been asked on numerous occasion and explain how this policy as you describe it isn’t complaint with the 2018 conference motion.

Corbyn’ Brexit Position is wonderful. I can see why he will be an exemplary Prime Minister.

Let’s be clear, a negotiation necessarily produces outcomes that cannot be known or even anticipated. I’m not sure that I’m interested – yet – in how a future Labour government is going to react to as yet unspecifiable options in a future referendum.

You are right. Corbyn and his socialist advisors realise that Brexit is not just about ‘leaving the EU’ but re-connecting with the momentum towards social equality that had been Labour’s purpose since 1945.
Most of those who voted Leave did so because they, understandably and rightly, saw the EU as part of the problem, one of the means whereby the movement towards socialism had been de-railed and reversed.
Those who are ready to defy democracy and campaign for Remain are showing how shallow their vision of reform is: they see the EU and the US as the alternatives between which a choice must be made. Labour’s true vision has always been different: that the people can and should make their own decisions not on which society to copy but on what society they wish to build.
For a Socialist Britain it is first necessary to assert our right to govern ourselves and that means leaving the EU, NATO and the Special Relationship.
What the Brexit voters wanted was what the people have always wanted: in Cobbett’s words “We want great changes, but we want nothing that is new.” People want to get back on track to complete the work built on the foundations built at such great cost, after 1945.

“Most of those who voted Leave did so because they, understandably and rightly, saw the EU as part of the problem, one of the means whereby the movement towards socialism had been de-railed and reversed.”

Deam on. The majority simply believed the excrement that is the Tory press.

Not sure why anyone is surprised it’s always been roughly the same stance and policy, that was honour the referendum. Not thrilled about leaving but I trust Labour and Jeremy to get the best deal they can for both sides, something we can all be reasonably satisfied with. It’s obvious a compromised has to be made to break this deadlock. These circumstances we’re facing and the other unthinkable possibilities aren’t going away on their own.

Thanks for the comments. The Toffee seems to me to be aggressive, intolerant, authoritarian and ignorant. It’s as if he has never encountered 150 years of working class culture, based on learning, reason, knowledge and social change. It’s some of the worst stuff I have ever read.

‘The Toffee seems to me to be aggressive, intolerant, authoritarian and ignorant.’

Yeah, because it was ME that acted like a complete wanker to renege on the promise to respect the ref result & ensure a remain option was on the table. Remeber when I did that, do you?

And it was ME made thinly veiled threats, undermined Corbyn and policy AND the 2017 manifesto and made the usual bullshitting appearances all over the media to DICTATE what was to be party policy, else I’d make more shit up, wasn’t it?

Errr….No it wasn’t. Try again. And keep trying until you get it right.

So you can take your ‘aggressive, intolerant, authoritarian and ignorant.’ and ram them up the arse of the useless fat fucker that’s ALL of those things AND more.

I appreciate that you are not a member of the party so may at one time have had an excuse for not being aware how Labour party policy is decided but you have been informed on numerous occasions that policy is decided at conference.

The 2017 manifesto policy was superceded by the policy unanimously agreed at the 2018 conference. You may not like it but that’s is no excuse for repeatedly posting what you know to be misleading lies.

Bullshitter peddling his usual bullshit again. Just about everybody accepts that Corbyn ‘compromised’ once again after watson & starmer’s shithouse plotting, rather than as a result of any vote that didn’t take place.

But you don’t do democracy and refuse to condemn watson for acting like a c**t so of course you’re gonna try to fill people’s heads with more of your worthless and incredulous bullshit…Again.

The Toffee (597) 17/09/2019 at 5:37 pm · ·Show me WHERE AND WHEN it was resolved by congress in 2018 to campaign for remain as policy?That isn’t what I have advocated, as things currently stand I think the ‘Wilson option’ will serve us well

Nothing else will suffice. I want EVIDENCE CONGRESS PASSED THE REMAIN OPTION – not fucking opinion polls or whatever shit you try & palm off as ‘evidence’You really haven’t thought this one through.
As it would be more than a little difficult to have a CV without at least 2 options on the ballot paper what do you suggest as the 2nd option if you don’t think Remain is an appropriate option.

1.Leave.
2.JC/Union position – JC as PM campaigns for Labour’s Better Brexit Deal.
3. As option 2 but JC does a Wilson and sits on fence and Labour Leavers and Remainers run own campaigns but don’t share platforms with other parties.
In order I would go for option 1 then 2 then 3 but thousands of us will argue on the doorstep for the finally agreed line as left wing democratic socialists try to win the battle of our lives, with millions here and abroad depending on us.
Solidarity!

What good is there in winning an election to then cause a recession around 6 times worse than the last one?

After a no deal Brexit non of Corbyn’s policies will happen even if he is in power. The government will be too busy trying to rebuild every trade agreement from the last 4 decades and making sure that the country is not starving and has the little things like electricity, water and medicine.

Will C..brexit or not the world this time is in for a slump and its already started…Watch the markets and the currency fluctuations,short sales,bonds and the gold price.The public this time will not tolerate being made to pay again for the neo liberal agenda and socialism will finally rise up and dictate the agenda.Lets hope Labour will have had a purge to take advantage of the world recession to restore fiscal responsibility rather than the destructive casino economics of the right wing in the UK….its goodbye to the vermin infecting the Labour party!

Arrghhhhhh I cannot take any of this wolfe bullshit anymore.
Nobody is going to rise up anywhere if there having to work/fight to look after there families, the Tories and there tame press will spin some bollocks the same as always and blame someone else.
Then again just like always enough of the hard of thinking that got Brexit across the line will follow them and we end up stuck in the same Tory shithole.

Wilf C….push someone into the corner,deny them civil rights,put them in a concentration camp without trial,set up no jury courts,use armed militia and troops and murder their family.Make them foreigners in their own country…..THEN people rise up and fight back against the very same establishment and PARTY that have played Ireland for fools for years…Yes Will C people do rise up and its not pretty but sometimes its the only option left,and I know because we did rise up and I was there!

I’m still with Corbyn’s 3 main policy points on leaving WITH the negotiated Customs Union,trade jobs and then a general election to see what people think. EU are not going to agree to leaving with no deal .EU will extend the Brexit date to protect the Good Friday Agreement for Ireland. Only a general election can solve this deadlock.

You can’t debunk crap by spouting more crap. The is no evidence anywhere that Labour’s members/voters want to revoke as much as the is no evidence anywhere to say the majority want to leave with no deal.

All members should realise this is a Tory problem and Labour’s job is to address it in a democratic way. What that means after over 3 years of Tory created mess & lies – going back to the start. Doing it again but this time the way as it should have been done first time. Perhaps Labour should even invite cross party support from the outset.

Agree the basics of a deal, bring that to the people in a referendum and let them decide. Having agreed a deal Labour should only campaign on the basis of “If you want to leave this is the deal”.

If people don’t want to leave then that’s their choice. Labour MPs should be given a free path to campaign but that should also be restricted without public funding and large rallies. The people have had enough now, get it done.

As a major Party, we should have a position on whether or not any form of Brexit will be beneficial for the UK and even the Tory ‘secret reports’ showed any form of Brexit would be harmful.

At last year’s conference we decided that ultimately we would campaign for another vote and support Remain. This new position, after the unions have influenced it, is a reversal of the conference resolution. What the heck is conference for if right wing union opinion can have it overturned?

Many on the far left cite opinions from Labour icons such as Benn, Skinner etc. who rightly are held in high esteem but on this issue, people should think for themselves and realise that Brexit is a right wing project which will harm the vast majority of us and possibly cause the break up of the United Kingdom.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Err… no. I think Labour should be smarter and neutral as a party, allowing MPs to take freely a position and Corbyn remaining neutral. It won’t put off remaining labour voters (many of whom are really tempted by the false promises of the Lib Dems), while, ironically, keep the party together since it is rather unified on the anti austerity agenda.

We so desperately need to win and the quality of lives and the conditions of millions of citizens (and particularly the poorest) depends on us and many are looking to us from around the World.
It is that important, so we need to try to be crystal clear in our thinking and perhaps drawing from socialist analysis there are 3 options:
Option 1 – respect the Leave result, get a better deal which protects jobs & environment. Pro – galvanises working class Labour Leave voters (I heard a number after the Brexit result in my area say they were pleased, “Now get Labour in!”) & also pulls rug from under Johnson & Brexit Party.
Con – will Labour Remain voters including progressive middle class stick with us putting Labour’s transformative programme ahead of their niave love of the Neo-Liberal EC?
Option 2 – Union/JC idea – GE, Lab win, Better Brexit Deal put to public vote with Remain option. Pro – offers a say to all sides of argument. Con – could alienate working class Labour voters who want Brexit and when do they want it, now! JC as PM campaigns for Labour’s Better Brexit Deal.
Option 3 – is as option 2 but JC as PM does a Wilson and sits campaign out and Labour Leavers and Remainers have own campaigns but don’t share platforms with other parties.
In order, on reflection, as perhaps some of our thinking evolves, with heartbreakingly so much at stake I would go for:
First – option 1.
Second – option 2.
Third – option 3.
But will stick with JCs preferred eventual route and yes we need to continue to get JC out again direct to the people but it will be Labour’s many thousands of activists on the doorstep who hopefully will win the fight of left wing democratic socialists lives!
The prize is a transformation of society which breaks the Neo–Liberal chain and acts as an example to the World, and it could be more exciting than 1945!
Labour For Hope!