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Then I very much hope so, but as has been proved, offline mode isn't reliable.

Yes, I have had to save my password/username in the steam login to use offline mode. It should not be an issue to login if I want to use offline mode once it is activated. At least that is how I remembered it previously for FM10.

It's just a tiny program that runs in the background. That's all it is. It doesn't affect anything, it doesn't cause any problems, it doesn't make the game run any worse. It's just a small program that stops people from stealing the game.

It's nothing major.

It's a tiny that I cannot get access to, I have an account with Steam, actually I have 2 linked to my email account, dating back to when SI first started to use Steam but after the 2009 issues I uninstalled it & haven't used it since. After the announcement I decided that to be fair I should give it a go by letting it sit in offline mode for a while so I can assess its impact on my daily PC use, the problem I am having is that I cannot access my account(s) or successfully reset my password.

I have emailed valve customer support to see if they can allow me access to my current accounts or delete them so that I will feel comfortable in creating another new one, if they are unwilling or unable to assist then I will be minded to give up on the whole process.

Eh no, SEGA will without a doubt have gotten a pretty good deal from Valve for the exclusive rights to FM. They don't have to charge money for us using Steam, as they make plenty of cash from other entry points. For example, they have ad banners plastered all over the client.

Has long has you turn off notifications is the settings you wont see them. But hay if It doesn't cost me anything to use Steam, I dont have a problem wih SEGA making money it wil go into helping develope the game.

Because i have used steam with FM since 2009, and steam does not start when you open the editor. If steam does not start you will never need it to use the editor and hence he will never have an issue unless his computer breaks

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

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Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

I would bet that more people have failures due to drivers than from using Steam. As far as point of failures go.

It's not an argument of "more" - it's an argument about another point-of-failure.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

And "personal" information taken from Steam is a very woolly argument that has little to no substance. You're more likely to lose personal information from visiting a java website than through being signed up to Steam. You can't even buy anything online without having to register any more, and given that the majority of people will probably FM online they have already had to submit their details over a hackable connection, using a hackable client to a hackable website who might well on the sly sell your details on to someone dodgy anyway. Registering for Steam (where you don't have to even use actual personal information) is hardly a noticeable increased risk.

Wrong - Steam itself can be hacked. Username and password details can be obtained through hacking. Steam uses your credit card - if you've used Steam before to purchase things, FM becomes an attack vector (once logged in to Steam, an exploit has access) - is FM secure in this respect?

In-transit attacks are of course present over any online system but I'm talking about Steam as a point-of-failure.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

The rest of your post is telling SI what their sales figures will do, which I'm sure they're grateful for your input having clearly done zero research at all their end.

I have huge doubts about the video game (and media in general) industries doing research about piracy. Independent research is mixed at best.

First of all, I don't mind using steam. What bothers me though is that I, being Belgian,have to pay 50€ for the game, while other countries pay 30 or 35€.
That is pure discrimination. Can someone explain me how this is possible? It's totally unfair. I don't mind paying for a product, but I do mind paying more than ,for example, an fellow American gamer. That said, I will be looking to buy a activation code elsewhere (found them for 25€). Can anybody confirm that it is safe to buy an activation code from another website? Looking forward to playing FM12

If you've followed the instructions for setting it up in the Steam help pages and it still fails it's an error, have you reported it to Steam?

I just read them for the first time and it seems there is the possibility for a fail if you haven't followed that procedure.

I don't say that's the cause of your issue, just that it might be as I certainly wasn't aware of the exact requirement even though I haven't had an issue.

How do you report it when you don't have internet access at the time you have the issue?

I have no problems getting "offline" mode to work most of the time but the two occasions I needed it to work it failed.

TBH I'm getting rather sick of the "I'm alright Jack attitude of those users who have never had a problem" The fact is a minority of users encounter problems, some only once, some several times & some regularly. FM sold over 1,000,000 copies last year even if just 1% of users have a Steam issue thats 10,000 users who will be unable to play FM for a portion of time due to Steam.

I get the feeling I've posted a bit too much in this thread so I'll just sum up the reasons I won't be purchasing FM and leave it there:

A) A third party program running constantly when I want to play FM
B) SI/Sega having no control over Steam support and they offer little advice when users have a Steam issue
C) Steam terms & conditions of use
D) There are question marks over my consumer rights as a UK based user of Steam

Just for clarification I in no way endorse pirating of a product and am not against online activation of a product. Twice this year I have purchased a PC game that required online activation and neither have required Steam.

Some people have had problems with it, some haven't ever, that's not proof of anything other than that Steam need to address any proven problems with the help of the people having those problems.

True, but it's still a fairly major issue. If a piece of software isn't doing as I'm telling it to when it should, then there's a problem somewhere. If it's 1 or 2 people, you could put that down to human error, or a corrupt install etc. If you have 10 people having the same issue, then it's obvious that there's a bigger problem that needs to be fixed.

Wrong - Steam itself can be hacked. Username and password details can be obtained through hacking. Steam uses your credit card - if you've used Steam before to purchase things, FM becomes an attack vector (once logged in to Steam, an exploit has access) - is FM secure in this respect?

if you buy the cd game steam will never have your credit card info, you can use a made up hotmail account not linked to you in any real way.

First of all, I don't mind using steam. What bothers me though is that I, being Belgian,have to pay 50€ for the game, while other countries pay 30 or 35€.
That is pure discrimination. Can someone explain me how this is possible? It's totally unfair. I don't mind paying for a product, but I do mind paying more than ,for example, an fellow American gamer. That said, I will be looking to buy a activation code elsewhere (found them for 25€). Can anybody confirm that it is safe to buy an activation code from another website? Looking forward to playing FM12

You can buy the game on disc and when you pop the disc in it will install through Steam. That way you may find the game cheaper through a local game shop.

Just to summarise, these are the users that will be affected by this decision;

1. People who have bandwidth quotas - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. Mac users - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power when idling. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

3. People with no internet access - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

4. People with blocked access - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

5. Potentially everyone* - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

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Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Dont listen to everything XB42 says, he makes good points but he is not always right.

Feel free to point out where.

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

but please stop with this "SI are screwing the loyal customers" nonsense. Loyal customers buy the game no matter what, steam or not.

If SI decided to require you to enter provide real-life identities, credit card information and bank account details, would you be using the same argument ("Loyal customers buy the game no matter what!")?

We were loyal customers. SI are screwing us over. We aren't loyal any more as a result.

We don't have to accept what we perceive as a sub-standard product - we have no duty of loyalty to SI. We are simply customers who have bought the product in the past, but are unhappy about the future.

Just to summarise, these are the users that will be affected by this decision;

1. People who have bandwidth quotas - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. Mac users - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power when idling. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

3. People with no internet access - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

4. People with blocked access - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

5. Potentially everyone* - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

6. Pirates - but not really.

Did I miss anyone?

7. People who just don't want 3rd party applications on their computer to run a game that has never been dependant on it before?

It's not an argument of "more" - it's an argument about another point-of-failure.

Another that is comparable to ones that already exist. With the amount of points of failure between hardware, software and users, one more isn't significant enough to be a concern

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Wrong - Steam itself can be hacked. Username and password details can be obtained through hacking. Steam uses your credit card - if you've used Steam before to purchase things, FM becomes an attack vector (once logged in to Steam, an exploit has access) - is FM secure in this respect?

In-transit attacks are of course present over any online system but I'm talking about Steam as a point-of-failure.

With what record? How many times has it happened for it to be a quantifiable risk and how big a risk? It's basic risk assessment criteria, how often is it likely to happen (based on future forecasts and previous events), how many people is it likely to affect and on what scale. Simply "it might happen" is again not a significant enough concern.

Originally Posted by x42bn6

I have huge doubts about the video game (and media in general) industries doing research about piracy. Independent research is mixed at best.

Thankfully listening to your forum posts will change their minds over their own internal or paid for external research.

A) A third party program running constantly when I want to play FM
B) SI/Sega having no control over Steam support and they offer little advice when users have a Steam issue
C) Steam terms & conditions of use
D) There are question marks over my consumer rights as a UK based user of Steam

Just for clarification I in no way endorse pirating of a product and am not against online activation of a product. Twice this year I have purchased a PC game that required online activation and neither have required Steam.

Fair points.

I will be purchasing the game. And I will use it for the time that I can. If I find the game failing due to Steam not working, or that Steam is too much of a memory hog etc. I will use my customer rights to get a refund if I cannot issues resolved. And I'll be sure to let SI, SEGA and Steam know about it.

But I'm at least going to give it a try. I'm not overly concerned with points B to D.

If this doesn't work due to Steam, there will be a lot to answer for by SI, Sega and Steam.

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Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Come on, release a game without protection? Not even music CD's are released without some sort of protection. Sadly in the world we live it is needed, it may not stop piracy, but it does put less knowledgeable people off, removing that would be suicide.

Witcher 2. No DRM. Did very well in the sales charts.

* It was initially released with a true, one time internet activation (not Steam reliant) which they promptly removed because it caused issues with the game.

Just to summarise, these are the users that will be affected by this decision;

1. People who have bandwidth quotas - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. Mac users - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power when idling. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

3. People with no internet access - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

4. People with blocked access - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

5. Potentially everyone* - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

6. Pirates - but not really.

Did I miss anyone?

This.

#2 isn't helped by the fact that FM isn't the best application on the Mac anyway - and pretty much never has been - with Steam taking up those resources, it's taking it away from FM, and a very slight possible performance increase.

* It was initially released with a true, one time internet activation (not Steam reliant) which they promptly removed because it caused issues with the game.

not quite, only certain versions had no DRM

"On April 14, 2011, CD Projekt announced during their CDP Days 2011 Spring Conference that retail copies of the game would feature SecuRom DRM. However, the protection would still allow for infinite installations on an infinite number of PCs, with the ability to play on up to five PCs at any one time. It was also confirmed that the game would feature no censorship between regions.[11] The Witcher 2 was also distributed through several digital distribution services such as Steam and CD Projekt's own service "Good Old Games". The version sold on GOG.com was the only version that did not have any DRM at release."

Yeah I know that...but for my defence, I use Steam offline option when my girlfriend plays Anno, which I've also purchased through Steam... I'm the only owner and user of FM in my household (couldn't get the gf interested).

If SI decided to require you to enter provide real-life identities, credit card information and bank account details, would you be using the same argument ("Loyal customers buy the game no matter what!")?

We were loyal customers. SI are screwing us over. We aren't loyal any more as a result.

Loyal means sticking by them through the good and bad, if you walk away your not loyal, even if you think you are, and SI are not screwing anyone with this, calm down and stop sensationalizing it.

1. People who have bandwidth quotas - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. Mac users - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power when idling. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

Hopefully Steam can be improved for the Mac. Hopefully it doesn't affect too many people. I don't have a Mac, but my brother does and he reckons Steam isn't as bad as people make it out to be on here.

Originally Posted by mantralux

3. People with no internet access - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

You can download the patches as mentioned already.

Yes you need to activate it online through Steam. So you will need to get internet access from somewhere. Perhaps you know someone with Mobile Broadband or get a trial from a local shop or something?

It's unfortunate that you need internet access to activate, seems to be the biggest flaw in this saga. But it is there to help combat piracy. Which is an extreme step to take, but as said in the opening post, it wasn't a decision taken lightly.

Originally Posted by mantralux

4. People with blocked access - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

I suggest the "unblock" them. I have no idea why their connection points would be blocked. But I'm sure they can contact Steam support about how to fix this.

Originally Posted by mantralux

5. Potentially everyone* - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

That's terrible on Steam's part. I'm shocked by 10+ incidents. Seems to be more of a problem that I originally thought.

SI have siad they will try to help us out with contacting Steam. So if you're not getting much feedback from Steam perhaps contact a member of the SI team on the forums?

Ah yes. But remember - there's only "about 50" of us, and although SI are "sad" to see us go, we won't hurt their sales, and therefore don't matter.

Well unfortunately, even if every member of this forum boycotted the game, which is around 150k people, really that's nothing compared to the amount of sales FM11 got.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

8. People who don't like change

Some people don't. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it was a case of a one-time activation where you could then not have Steam running in the background. I know it doesn't take up much resources on a PC, but it's still there. I will play FM12 regardless because I enjoy the series so much, but why should I be dictated to by a third party telling me how to use it? If I buy a CD, I can use it on my computer, in my CD player, in my car, in my Xbox/PS3. Why should a game be any different?

Yeah I know that...but for my defence, I use Steam offline option when my girlfriend plays Anno, which I've also purchased through Steam... I'm the only owner and user of FM in my household (couldn't get the gf interested).

yeah im having a go at you, i also have done it, but we are both technically breaking the law sadly.

The thing is I would really like to keep supporting SI like I've always done. I truly do.

Miles' analogy with locks etc could have convinced me. I mean if SI as a company felt it was in their best interest to pay for a service to protect their game (like you pay for locks and alarm systems), well I could understand that and accept the consequences.

But SI does not pay for the "locks". The "locks" pay SI to be installed. Which makes things even more ennoying.

That's not what has been said so far. Maybe I misinterpreted it, but from what I understand, patches will only be available through Steam and not through SEGA's or SI's websites. The patches you linked to were for FM2011.

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Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

Still buying CDs is probably a sign that you might need to move with the times!

Oh come on. The amount of utter garbage being spouted in this thread is silly.

There are plenty of good reasons to buy a CD instead of digital download, the chief of which being that music is about sound, and you get the best sound quality out of a CD, and not a compressed audio file.

Still buying CDs is probably a sign that you might need to move with the times!

I'm the same with books though. I know they take up room but I like having the physical thing in my hands. Plus as Wakers just pointed out, the sound difference on a CD compared to a compressed audio file is huge. And Wakers- I think he was joking

Oh come on. The amount of utter garbage being spouted in this thread is silly.

There are plenty of good reasons to buy a CD instead of digital download, the chief of which being that music is about sound, and you get the best sound quality out of a CD, and not a compressed audio file.

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Originally Posted by Wakers

Oh come on. The amount of utter garbage being spouted in this thread is silly.

There are plenty of good reasons to buy a CD instead of digital download, the chief of which being that music is about sound, and you get the best sound quality out of a CD, and not a compressed audio file.

Yeh, in best forum tradition we're going off topic faster than the shuttle I understand you do good car analogies Wakers

Has there been an official word regarding patches? Will they be Steam only?

*edit no reason for quoting CP here - was a misclick*

Wow my self-imposed exile didn't last long.

In the post I linked to FM11 patches it clearly states where to use the Patches and what version and what disc etc.

I suspect it will be same for Fm12.

If you buy through Steam, you will update patches through Steam.

If you are worried about internet connections, then don't buy through Steam. Buy the disc. And when the downloads are available you can download to a USB stick from another location and install that way.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't the same as last year. And if it is then it still won't affect me. I've no issues patching through Steam. Not to say I won't. And if I do I'll let SI, Sega and Steam know about it.

In the post I linked to FM11 patches it clearly states where to use the Patches and what version and what disc etc.

I suspect it will be same for Fm12.

If you buy through Steam, you will update patches through Steam.

If you are worried about internet connections, then don't buy through Steam. Buy the disc. And when the downloads are available you can download to a USB stick from another location and install that way.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't the same as last year. And if it is then it still won't affect me. I've no issues patching through Steam. Not to say I won't. And if I do I'll let SI, Sega and Steam know about it.

Anyway, FM12 and Steam all the way for me. I'm looking forward to it.

To be honest eugene i think your wrong, i think the game will have to be updated through steam and that will be the only platform for updates, i think Miles may have touched on that in his posts a few pages ago, i dont think you can update a steam game manually, even if its installed from disk.

None of use were in the meeting, SI could have given alternatives and SEGA batted them down, If you in a meetig with your boss and he asks you for ideas and opinions and still picks his own, you may not be happy but you still got to sing from the same hymn sheet. If you didn't agree with the boss are you going to turn around and say fine if you want it that way I'm off, and walk out.

You could go the legal way and get the entire company removed......that's what i did

We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.

Originally Posted by The Welsh Lad

None of use were in the meeting, SI could have given alternatives and SEGA batted them down, If you in a meetig with your boss and he asks you for ideas and opinions and still picks his own, you may not be happy but you still got to sing from the same hymn sheet. If you didn't agree with the boss are you going to turn around and say fine if you want it that way I'm off, and walk out.

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Do you just ignore any post that doesnt back up your point??
Miles said they looked at every single possible solution and this was the best one they were left with, they went through every alternative before settling on steam.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

Would have loved that thread from SI.

"Hi guys, we didn't want to put in DRM but we've been told by Sega to do so. Sorry everyone we tried to fight them on this but they wouldn't listen!"

I would appreciate it if people would stop telling me 'what he/someone said', I can read, please do not 'interpret' for me what has been written by Miles, or anybody else employed by SI and Sega, it should stand on it's own merit. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Miles Jacobson

This was always going to be an emotive subject. Any form of copy protection is. There's no conspiracy theory about SEGA posting about it though - they normally do so, as it's a publishing thing, not a development thing. It is their job to come up with recommendations in this area, but we were consulted about the various options available. This is by far and away the best one that was presented to us, from a user perspective, a business perspective and a protection perspective.

I would also ask people to please be careful when offering solutions/answers to people's questions, what you 'Think' 'Believe' 'Can see no reason why not' etc. may not actually be the correct solution/answer, or may be correct but not the complete picture, this can be very misleading.

EDIT: This, for instance, is a good example, you have to reconnect to Steam to download Patches:

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

People seem to be confusing what actually happens and how Steam is involved.

It seems to me that people think they have to play FM12 through steam and that their games will be stored online and not installed or saved to their computer.

That is not the case. All you have to do is have Steam running and Activate the game once online.

You still need Steam running and logged in under the user account, but you don't need it to be online, you can switch it to offline mode.

There are three inconveniences here

Install Steam

Activate game through Steam

Have Steam always running when playing FM12

The first one seems to be bugging people immensely. I agree that installing a 3rd party software to play a game is annoying. But they are trying to get people to stop pirating, which I don't think this method will work, but that's neither here nor there.

The second one - people are confusing Activating through Steam with always having to be connected to the Steam Servers. You don't have be connected after you've Activated the game.

And the last one - you have to have Steam running when you play FM12 - and you can play it in Offline Mode. If you aren't planning to play FM12 then you can quit out of Steam and use your computer for other things. If you want to play FM12 then you need to log into Steam.

People are confusing the issue with Steam and how it works. And blowing it way out of proportion.

I would appreciate it if people would stop telling me 'what he/someone said', I can read, please do not 'interpret' for me what has been written by Miles, or anybody else employed by SI and Sega, it should stand on it's own merit. Thank you.

then actually read the posts and we wont have to

Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman

I would also ask people to please be careful when offering solutions/answers to people's questions, what you 'Think' 'Believe' 'Can see no reason why not' etc. may not actually be the correct solution/answer, or may be correct but not the complete picture, this can be very misleading.

may i suggest you stop speculating without any basis then, what you think or believe about the situation may be completely wrong, much like you are suggesting to us, so when you say

We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.

you have no idea what SI did or did not do, stop suggesting you do please.

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You can only install through Steam, that's the thing. When you put the DVD in, it will tell you that Steam is required to install and activate. Steam will then be installed (or opened) and will install the game for you.

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Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

Another that is comparable to ones that already exist. With the amount of points of failure between hardware, software and users, one more isn't significant enough to be a concern

It's still more of a concern, especially since it requires me to go through one more legal agreement and Steam itself is a very "thick" wrapper application. It's a lot more significant than hardware.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

With what record? How many times has it happened for it to be a quantifiable risk and how big a risk? It's basic risk assessment criteria, how often is it likely to happen (based on future forecasts and previous events), how many people is it likely to affect and on what scale. Simply "it might happen" is again not a significant enough concern.

Hacks are unpredictable and their damage is unpredictable. What is known is that they will always happen and nothing you can do can ever isolate yourself from it. Steam is a very viable target since it holds personal and financial details, and causes large impact. I'd say it's quite significant.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

Thankfully listening to your forum posts will change their minds over their own internal or paid for external research.

True - I'm a customer. If they're not listening to customers, we have bigger issues.

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Loyal means sticking by them through the good and bad, if you walk away your not loyal, even if you think you are, and SI are not screwing anyone with this, calm down and stop sensationalizing it.

We were loyal, but not any more.

There's nothing wrong with that. We have no duty of loyalty.

You hear companies worried about losing loyal customers all the time - customers who have stuck with the brand as the brand gives them certain benefits. However, once that brand ceases to give them certain benefits, the loyalty goes out of the window. It's a capitalist world, and loyalty is an unexpected surprise and benefit for a company. Lose that, and...

I do find it illuminating that you stuck "good and bad" in your posts - is this a bad thing? I can't see why someone's loyalty would be swayed if something "good" happened.

We have been loyal to SI all this while, and we would like to maintain that loyalty. That is why we are aggrieved. Loyalty is one thing - betraying that loyalty is another - we feel that this has happened.

As for SI screwing us over - yes they have. Look at the complaints! Some of us have had bad experiences with Steam, whilst some will stay away out of principle, and this is known.

Just because you don't feel screwed over, don't think that you are morally right and therefore everyone else is wrong. People are aggrieved, just as they have the right to be. You don't have a problem - brilliant. Now listen to those who do. And don't tell them to calm down - if you care about the game, it is better that SI and Sega set themselves higher standards, and only complaints will get them there.

Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Wakers

You can only install through Steam, that's the thing. When you put the DVD in, it will tell you that Steam is required to install and activate. Steam will then be installed (or opened) and will install the game for you.

That's how it was with Deus Ex, which has the same system.

This is the case, the only advantage is a quicker install as it loads the game from the disc, the end result is the same.

I thought if you installed through the disk it wouldn't go near steam at all, until the activation point. Once activated it's done and playable. And the Patches would be avaiable to download.

But if you installed through Steam it would of course be in the Steam folders etc. and would require update through Steam.

Hopefully get an answer soon.

Nah once you put the game onto steam you need steam to do anything with it. Even if you install off disk it will install through steam if you get what i mean, steam will need to be there for anything done with FM.

You can only install through Steam, that's the thing. When you put the DVD in, it will tell you that Steam is required to install and activate. Steam will then be installed (or opened) and will install the game for you.

That's how it was with Deus Ex, which has the same system.

Hmmm fair enough. If that's how it worked with other games, I don't have any other games with Steam.

It's still more of a concern, especially since it requires me to go through one more legal agreement and Steam itself is a very "thick" wrapper application. It's a lot more significant than hardware.

Not as a point of failure it isn't.

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Hacks are unpredictable and their damage is unpredictable. What is known is that they will always happen and nothing you can do can ever isolate yourself from it. Steam is a very viable target since it holds personal and financial details, and causes large impact. I'd say it's quite significant.

It doesn't present any more risk than any other hack, less so actually because windows/websites/emails etc. have a much higher attack rate. You're more likely to have details stolen from someone stealing forum data kept by Sega than someone hacking in to your computer via Steam and obtaining your fake hotmail account name and password.

Originally Posted by x42bn6

True - I'm a customer. If they're not listening to customers, we have bigger issues.

Ah yes, SI should listen to customers on every aspect on how they build and release a game otherwise they are in trouble. Especially if one customer's opinion contradicts their own research! I mean that's how successful business work! Customer is always right etc.

You hear companies worried about losing loyal customers all the time - customers who have stuck with the brand as the brand gives them certain benefits. However, once that brand ceases to give them certain benefits, the loyalty goes out of the window. It's a capitalist world, and loyalty is an unexpected surprise and benefit for a company. Lose that, and...

I do find it illuminating that you stuck "good and bad" in your posts - is this a bad thing? I can't see why someone's loyalty would be swayed if something "good" happened.

We have been loyal to SI all this while, and we would like to maintain that loyalty. That is why we are aggrieved. Loyalty is one thing - betraying that loyalty is another - we feel that this has happened.

As for SI screwing us over - yes they have. Look at the complaints! Some of us have had bad experiences with Steam, whilst some will stay away out of principle, and this is known.

Just because you don't feel screwed over, don't think that you are morally right and therefore everyone else is wrong. People are aggrieved, just as they have the right to be. You don't have a problem - brilliant. Now listen to those who do. And don't tell them to calm down - if you care about the game, it is better that SI and Sega set themselves higher standards, and only complaints will get them there.

Then you are no longer loyal, simple as, my local football team are rubbish, lose most weeks, only scored in two league games this season, but im loyal and go watch them every week, thats what i mean through good and bad, loyal people are not just there through what could be perceived as the good times, they are there through everything, even decisions they dont agree with because loyalty is sticking with something through thick and thin.

Again no one is screwing anyone over, not in the slightest, they are asking you to install a free program, nothing more. Anyone staying away is doing so by choice, not because SI have screwed you over.

Because i have used steam with FM since 2009, and steam does not start when you open the editor. If steam does not start you will never need it to use the editor and hence he will never have an issue unless his computer breaks

But this FM12 with Steam embedded in the game, unless you have experience of this, how do you know? You don't appear to be an employee of SI/Sega, but maybe you have inside knowledge.

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It irritates me that people even use the word loyalty in the context of a game, we aren't loyal, we play the game because we like it, if we stop liking it we stop playing it, if it gets too expensive (in our opinion) we don't buy it, if it gets released with a DRM method we find obnoxious we refuse to buy it (apparently)

We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.

If I am not allowed to stipulate what might have been said or read into it a different way. How it it right for you then? I stated in the qoute you posted of mine, Where I said none of us where in the meeting to know what was said or done but it seems you know.

It's funny how suddenly steam activation became the most important new feature in FM2012.

And there is so many doubts about it, that i really hope SI, or Sega, can answer them.

Patching the game could be a serious problem for people without internet conection at home. At present, people can download the patch from other place to a usb disk and then install it at home. But if the patch only work with steam how will they do it?

It irritates me that people even use the word loyalty in the context of a game, we aren't loyal, we play the game because we like it, if we stop liking it we stop playing it, if it gets too expensive (in our opinion) we don't buy it, if it gets released with a DRM method we find obnoxious we refuse to buy it (apparently)

Stop misusing the word loyalty for Gods sake

Indeed. It's worse on MMO forums where people don't seem to understand that you can buy a game if you like it, play it until you don't like it any more and buy something else.

You have to commit yourself to one game, or franchise otherwise you're odd. Human need to categorise everything? AMD vs Intel, Fifa vs PES, Xbox vs PS etc. we don't seem to like shades of grey you're either one or the other, you're either loyal or you aren't!

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Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

Indeed. It's worse on MMO forums where people don't seem to understand that you can buy a game if you like it, play it until you don't like it any more and buy something else.

You have to commit yourself to one game, or franchise otherwise you're odd. Human need to categorise everything? AMD vs Intel, Fifa vs PES, Xbox vs PS etc. we don't seem to like shades of grey you're either one or the other, you're either loyal or you aren't!

I'm loyal to my wife, she makes sure of that in spite of the fact that I know and like most of the staff at SI and many at Sega if I stopped liking FM I'd stop playing it, and anybody who tells me they're different is severely testing my belief.

Well unfortunately, even if every member of this forum boycotted the game, which is around 150k people, really that's nothing compared to the amount of sales FM11 got.

I'm no marketing guru, but I can't help envisaging thousands of customers who do not visit this forum and go into the shop to buy FM2012. Not quite heeding the info on the box, they will get home and try to activate. If the warnings from many Steam-users such as Mantrlux here come to pass, many will be deeply frustrated and advise their friends by word of mouth to avoid buying a boxed copy of FM2012. And you know what they'll do? Download the game from pirate sites instead.

I really fear sales will be hit badly by this policy decision, and as I've said already, I suspect the SEGA analysts will blame the fallen sales on piracy and avoid looking at themselves and their own decisions.

A general question to all, is it unreasonable for a successful game developer in 2011 to expect 99.99% of their customerbase to have a broadband internet connection?

I've already insinuated that the developers are based in London, and SEGA is based in the most technologically developed part of the world. Piracy is particularly a problem in the developing world, the very areas that have expensive, unreliable, non-broadband internet. i just don't think the policy-wonks have thought about their PR blurb about FM being a global game with a worldwide market. This will make it even more Euro/US-centric.

When Playstation, the NHS and Swiss banks can get hacked and/or lose personal details, Steam sure as hell can be too. And then the personal details of millions of users will be available to whoever hacks them. What would happen then? Steam service will get shut down for weeks or months on end. What do you think will happen to your gaming days then?

Many concerns have been raised in this thread. I'd be amazed if SI hadn't considered these before, since practically all of them are well-known.

I've been a loyal CM/FM buying customer since when SI was a tiny, tiny company. This change means I will not buy FM12, or any future game from SI if this policy persists.

People in today's world don't have many principles. Perhaps we're too used to getting rammed up our behinds 24/7. It's sad to see SI do this, as I have always considered them a company that cared about their customers. Maybe that isn't so any more. Maybe they have gotten too big now. It's how if often goes. But I'm fed up of it and will draw a line in the sand.

Only time will tell if this hurts SI's sales more than it benefits them. I hope they suffer so the policy will be reversed.

I really fear sales will be hit badly by this policy decision, and as I've said already, I suspect the SEGA analysts will blame the fallen sales on piracy and avoid looking at themselves and their own decisions.

The majority of games, I suspect and as Miles pointed out in his post, ship with some form on online activation these days. Unless it's idiotic DRM from Ubisoft, I don't think it has any real effect on sales. Neither will this decision.

It's funny how suddenly steam activation became the most important new feature in FM2012.

To be fair, it's looking like there will be fewer exciting major new features in this game than any previous FM release. I may not be in such a tiny minority in considering sticking with FM11 since it's fine and the minor additions to FM12 maybe won't make it worth the hassle to jump through these Steam hoops.

But this FM12 with Steam embedded in the game, unless you have experience of this, how do you know? You don't appear to be an employee of SI/Sega, but maybe you have inside knowledge.

i have experience that is the key
FM09, 10 and 11 bought and installed through steam, no need for steam for the editor, now obviously i could be wrong but i think its safe to say it will follow the same trend.

I'm no marketing guru, but I can't help envisaging thousands of customers who do not visit this forum and go into the shop to buy FM2012. Not quite heeding the info on the box, they will get home and try to activate. If the warnings from many Steam-users such as Mantrlux here come to pass, many will be deeply frustrated and advise their friends by word of mouth to avoid buying a boxed copy of FM2012. And you know what they'll do? Download the game from pirate sites instead.

I suspect sales won't be hurt too much, because people don't expect to be fooled like this and will buy the game anyway. Then they get home and notice the Steam crap. At that point SI has gotten their money anyway, but what about FM13? These customers may not buy it next time around.

I hope sales will be hurt so SI change their policy, but quite honestly I don't think they will be.

One thing's for sure, the only way we can convince SI to change their policy is by now buying the game and by causing such a stir that they change the policy for future games.

I really fear sales will be hit badly by this policy decision, and as I've said already, I suspect the SEGA analysts will blame the fallen sales on piracy and avoid looking at themselves and their own decisions.

This is great news. Steam is leading an almost single handed revival of the PC gaming market, with over 35 million active users world wide.

Sure it had a shaky start but that was years ago. It is a wonderful piece of software and whenever I get a new computer is one of the first things I install.

There is a lot of paranoid hate on here from people that have never used it.

OR have used it, found it to be poor and therefore hate it. There are also people that think it is undoubtedly wonderful because they personally have never experienced the problems and are therefore ignorant to others opinions.

When Playstation, the NHS and Swiss banks can get hacked and/or lose personal details, Steam sure as hell can be too. And then the personal details of millions of users will be available to whoever hacks them. What would happen then? Steam service will get shut down for weeks or months on end. What do you think will happen to your gaming days then?

If you have steam set up in offline mode then the servers being down will not matter, you will still be able to play the game. Anyway the same could be said of PSN or Xbox, should we just not ever use an online gaming service?

Originally Posted by Pangaea

Many concerns have been raised in this thread. I'd be amazed if SI hadn't considered these before, since practically all of them are well-known.

I've been a loyal CM/FM buying customer since when SI was a tiny, tiny company. This change means I will not buy FM12, or any future game from SI if this policy persists.

People in today's world don't have many principles. Perhaps we're too used to getting rammed up our behinds 24/7. It's sad to see SI do this, as I have always considered them a company that cared about their customers. Maybe that isn't so any more. Maybe they have gotten too big now. It's how if often goes. But I'm fed up of it and will draw a line in the sand.

Only time will tell if this hurts SI's sales more than it benefits them. I hope they suffer so the policy will be reversed.

your a "loyal" customer who hopes to see SI fail and suffer?
Surely the stance should be "im a loyal customer and i really dont agree with this but i will give SI a chance to prove me wrong" ?

I suspect sales won't be hurt too much, because people don't expect to be fooled like this and will buy the game anyway. Then they get home and notice the Steam crap. At that point SI has gotten their money anyway, but what about FM13? These customers may not buy it next time around.

I hope sales will be hurt so SI change their policy, but quite honestly I don't think they will be.

One thing's for sure, the only way we can convince SI to change their policy is by now buying the game and by causing such a stir that they change the policy for future games.

I really fear sales will be hit badly by this policy decision, and as I've said already, I suspect the SEGA analysts will blame the fallen sales on piracy and avoid looking at themselves and their own decisions.

I keep hoping the same, but around the quality of the game rather than having to use Steam. Which I feel is a far more valid reason to want sales to be hurt in my eyes.

Unfortunately the vast majority of the buying public really aren't very fickle, a few vocal forum users does not a majority make and sales will continue to flourish.

I suspect sales won't be hurt too much, because people don't expect to be fooled like this and will buy the game anyway. Then they get home and notice the Steam crap. At that point SI has gotten their money anyway, but what about FM13? These customers may not buy it next time around.

I dont see any issue with this, unless theres big problems with steam activation or playing the game because of steam failure. But i dont really think that will happen.
People will buy the game, will activate with steam, and next year nobody will remember this confusion! People will get use to it, and start thinking about steam as a "must have" software in order to be able to play FM.

Didn't last year, or 2 years ago, also were a big fuss about installing directx SDK in order to be able to play FM?

It's one thing having sales possibly effected (debatable), it's another thinking Steam is the key to solve piracy. Suppose SI will get some useful stats out of Steam that they wouldn't otherwise get, but from a consumer's point of view I couldn't care less about that.

P.S. I don't mind Steam, so doesn't bother me. It's just so annoying that there has been no consistency for the last few years. In fact, it almost feels like every release is an experiment which shouldn't be the case when you have opportunities to test these kinds of things well in advance.