Re: Building a better Warhammer

Not the unreliable beastman ambush from the main rule book. I never got why GW made them worse at something they specialized in. I alsi miss the skirmishing gors and ungors.[/quote]

Easily fixed.

One of my favorite builds in eighth was a Doombull general which made Minotaurs core. Of course I hardly ever won with them, regardless of build but this one was fun to play. As stated earlier I love the monsters (giant and gorgon mostly) so I would like them to be a part of my army, if they are viable with this rules set.

Everything can be made viable.

The mixed herd was always cool. Ungors to the front to absorb hits from shooting then falling behind to make way for the gors in CC.

Allying with Mortals was always fun too. I love Chaos knights, both the models and the way they were in six/seven.

Marks were also important. Khorne for frenzy, Nurgle for toughness, etc.

One wound is good for 20mm base models.

If you can see the model in my avatar it is a gor on a Rhinox which I made three of to use as chariots.

It sounds like primal fury may not be a good fit for your mechanic. It was a Ld test which if passed gave the unit hatred for that turn. Double one frenzied them as well.

I think the rule you referred to was Unruly

I never use special characters.

Those are some random thoughts from memory. If you can let me think on it overnight and I`ll add anything else that comes to mind. I appreciate your doing this for me. I can`t wait to get the book.

Okay, so let's work through this.

The Gor is our baseline. Going off of Ravening Hordes, I have them using the following stats in Conqueror:

If we give them both hand weapons, light armor and shield (SV 5) the points cost for Gors would be 80 for 10 models with additional models costs 8 pts apiece up to 20 models, and additional ones 4 pts each after that (this reflects that once you get 20 models in a unit, they are mostly there to absorb losses and boost morale so their combat effect is less).

Ungors are cheaper, 60 for 10.

So a unit of 20 gors with hand weapons, light armor and shield will be 160 points, while 20 ungors are 120.

If we add in Bloodlust, the cost for each goes up by 10 points. If you want the to have some serious impact, you can take either Ferocious Charge (charging models gain an additional melee attack or Hard Charging (Charging models gain +1 to their armor penetration).

I already have analogues for the marks, so that's easy.

I also have minotaur stats and we can use either the rules for chariots or ridden monsters, depending on how you want to go for the exotic stuff.

Again, there is no limit in Conqueror on what you want to take other than common sense and your model collection. The limits can be what you want them to be: It's your list!

Re: Building a better Warhammer

Beastman ambush worked like this: If your general has the rule he has a horn with which to summon his ambushers. Up to half of the ambushing troops are not deployed at the beginning of the game. Starting on turn two the general may sound his horn. After this make a ld test for each unit. If passed that unit comes on the table at a point declared prior to launching the ambush. If failed, role a scatter dice to determine a random entry point.

It was a fun mechanic to play. Combined with the fact they were skirmishers it was an effective way to deal with shooty armies that tried to avoid CC, especially war machine crews.

I forgot to mention the Dragon Ogres and DO Shaggoth. The Shaggoth`s stats were as follows: m7, ws6, bs3, s5, t5, w6, i4, a5, ld9, terror, large target,unit strenght6 scaly skin sv4+,
The Dragon Ogres: m7, ws4, bs2, s5, t4, w4, i2, a3, ld8. These are on 40mm bases while the Shaggoth is a monster.

Gors came with either two hand weapons of hand weapon and shield for the same points.

I received the book today and have begun to read through it. I like what I am seeing so far and hope to get a game in very soon. Thank you for your time and efforts.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

Originally Posted by gormaster

Beastman ambush worked like this: If your general has the rule he has a horn with which to summon his ambushers. Up to half of the ambushing troops are not deployed at the beginning of the game. Starting on turn two the general may sound his horn. After this make a ld test for each unit. If passed that unit comes on the table at a point declared prior to launching the ambush. If failed, role a scatter dice to determine a random entry point.

Ah, this is the Flank Attack scenario. So yes, you can do that in Conqueor.

It was a fun mechanic to play. Combined with the fact they were skirmishers it was an effective way to deal with shooty armies that tried to avoid CC, especially war machine crews.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

So my crushing workload eased up over the past couple of weeks, giving me the first chance in months to get to the gaming table. My current project: converting a unit of WHFB 5th ed. skinks with bows into line infantry with hand weapons and shields. I'll post pictures when I get a chance but they look pretty good.

One of the reasons I made this game was because GW's product cycle leaves a lot of otherwise useless figures lying around. Also, its fun to imagine a unit and then make up rules. The appendix to Conqueror has everything you need to build what you want. Indeed, I think the biggest flaw with the game is the lack of a fantasy world and evocative art to go with it.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

As stated in my signature, Conqueror will be available for FREE DOWNLOAD next week over at Amazon.com. Of course, you can always go in for the hard copy book, but it's a nice way to get a risk-free peek at the rules.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

Okay, don't all jump forward at once!

I was looking at my conversion lists and it occurred to me that one of the issues people may have had is that I toned things down quite a bit. That is to say that I was making WHFB lists the way I wanted them to be, rather than what GW actually made.

For example, Chaos is insanely overpowered compared to regular troops. In my version, I toned them down quite a bit. They were still good, but a far cry from their beardy GW goodness.

To correct this, I've gone back through my 5th edition books and looked at the same armies given within and converted them as closely as possible into Conqueror terms. This means that Chaos is really, really powerful but also really, really small.

A key difference of course is that even pushing the cheddar to the max, Conqueror simply doesn't make characters that overpowering. Their primary function remains leadership, though they do add a combat edge. The system simply won't let me go full Herohammer.

I also have to add a further couple of caveats. The first is that the mechanics are such that duplicating every special rule won't work. I've tried to preserve the stats and the "feel" of the army but I'm not going to recreate special rules all over the place. They simply aren't needed.

Finally, the points are different enough that making a 1-for-1 copy would create uneven lists, so I added some units (or models to listed units) to pad out the lists.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

Okay, the next list is the Empire.

Those who endured 5th ed. know that the Empire was one of the more vanilla armies in the game. Their book was one of the first out and didn't age well.

Converting their sample list into Conqueror terms was quite easy, but I think it would prove tough to beat. For one thing, their knights are no longer the worst in the Warhammer world. Their superior numbers also count for more using the Conqueror combat system.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

I've been pretty active on this thread, which is why I'm doing these conversion lists.

Looking over some of the feedback, I've decided to go ahead with Conqueror 2.0, which based on my current work load and previous productivity, it will be ready by 2027.

I mention this because I know people downloaded the free rules and some of you may have taken the opportunity to grab the working versions posted on this thread.

The changes I'm looking at are small, mostly clarifications and better artwork, but I'm also wanting to add new magic options and an expanded selection of magic items. Special rules will also come in for some review.

The notion isn't to re-create Herohammer, but rather give people more options to customize their characters. The original concept was that all magic and magic items could fit on a single page. I'm willing to give a little more space now and I think the game can use it as well.

Currently, I'm trying to wrap up book 4 of my Man of Destiny trilogy which I hope hope hope will happen in a few weeks. That will free up some time to do more gaming.

In the mean time, I'll still post sample lists as I get the time to turn them out.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

A day of calm reflection has put the following ideas in my head:

"Obedient" troops (they never check morale and always do what they are told) will be renamed "Mindless," because that's what they are. Their special morale will go from "O" to "M." Yeah, fiddly but I have another special rule for "Orderly" troops and I want to avoid repetition of the letter "O".

Similarly I'm changing "Ferocious Charge" to just plain "Ferocious."

I know, you're overwhelmed.

New Special Rule: Callous. These units ignore the routs of other units on their side.

New Magic Item: Potion of Strength (one use): For the next melee combat phase, attacks do an additional AP 2, which may be combined with normal or magic weapons.

New Magic Item: Sword of Sharpness. AP 2 hand weapon.

Special Rule Change: Impetuous. Under the new rule, units with this rule will be able to roll on the command table to restrain from charging.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

It took a while, but here is the Dark Elf list. ----><---- I based it on the 2,000 point one in the book, cut down to suit.

The elf armies are tough to convert because almost every unit has a special rule. I've tried to pull them out and let the stats speak for themselves, but when necessary I've used some of the core special rules to get the right feel.

Then there are the special weapons - repeating crossbows and bolt throwers. Those had to be incorporated as well as the Cold Ones. I dispensed with Stupidity because in my (admittedly limited) experience, it rarely if ever came into play. Cold One Knights were pricey and good enough that people bought off their flaw.

Conqueror has no rule for Stupidity and I'm not minded to make one because I don't see a lot of people wanting it. Anyhow, take a look.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

I'm unable figure out how to get these things to show up properly, but if you look between the arrows, the attachment will appear.

----><-----

This is a fairly bland list, as one would expect and it is a close mirror of the Dark Elves. Of note is the absence of special rules. I included the Dark Elf hatred, but the High Elves are chiefly distinguished by their excellent stats, which includes a higher movement rate.

Also of note is the high cost of the archers. With the ability to shoot twice during each player turn, archers are quite nasty, especially ones with high shooting skill and long range.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

Hello, sir. You have obviously put a lot of effort into this thread and Conqueror. I have been looking at the current state of historical and fantasy massed battle, after more than a decade away, and while the miniatures seem to be more amazing and fantastic than ever, the massed battle gaming community seems remarkably fragmented. Kings of War from Mantic has come on to the scene, quite different than Warhammer, but after that...wow. I am 60 miles from the nearest gamers and am more interested in gaming with friends and campaigns than conforming to a tournament meta. How is it going with Conqueror? Lost in the wastelands and looking for inspiration. Not absolutely sure what I am asking or looking for, but as I slide toward retirement, I would like to take up wargaming again.

Re: Building a better Warhammer

At the risk of shamelessly promoting my design, if you liked Warhammer, I think you'll like Conqueror.

It doesn't have a ton of players, but I've done next to nothing to market it. I think it's as good or better than anything out there, but I don't have all the cool art and money to lavish on it that others do.

If you want a quick summary of how it plays, think about the most annoying aspects of warhammer - jacked up point values, lots of special rules, fiddly obsessions with measurement and tactical limitations.

That's what I fixed.

It moves very quickly and smoothly, using an integrated turn sequence so you can have each player respond to the other's actions

I've been taking notes for a Second Edition, which would mostly add some more unit options, expand the magic and magic item list and (drum roll please) provide some starter army lists for people who don't want to dive into the points system right off the bat. That's probably its biggest weakness, but I have loaded some of the more popular Warhammer lists on this thread so you can get started.