Blue Garuda wrote:However, the purpose is to shift the mind and become the Yidam in the Yidam's world. The mind enters that reality totally so all phenomena are also real.

If the mind finally enters the mandala and remains there, it becomes that of an enlightened Buddha.

This is not the function of a HYT mandala visualization. Without understanding the principle of the basis of purification, the result of purification, and the purifier, one has not understood the purpose of the creation stage on any level at all. And no one has 16 arms and four legs, for example, not one single human being alive, past or present. This is the reason, for example, that when doing completion stage practices, one generally uses the sahaja or natural form of the deity i.e. with one face and two arms and legs.

Secondly, as Nangwa pointed out, the principle of the completion stage, partially, is to break clinging to the mentally generated pure appearances of the creation stage. The generated mandala is only mind, meant to cut attachment to the world of the impure vision. It does not go beyond mind in any sense. In order to go beyond mind one needs the experience of the completion stage. When one is able to unify the two stages within one's pratice, this is called the state of mahāmudra, in tantric terms.

What does Dzogchen offer that is greater?

It is said that if an butcher is given the explanation of Dzogchen they will achieve buddhahood more rapidly that a learned pandita who has never received any explanations of Dzogchen. So when explainging and teaching Dzogchen to an uneducated butcher, do we resort to complicated Buddhist words and topics? Do we belabor them with skandhas, dhātus and āyatanas? No. We just explain their state to them in terms any one can easily grasp -- the five elements and body, speech and mind. These eight things are readily understood by anyone.

There is no need to spend years learning the forensics of dead medieval tenet systems that no one beleives anymore merly to refute these topics with Madhyamaka reasonings that everyone disagrees on. How pyrrhic this exercise is. Enjoyable, a past time, but ultimately a dead end.

Other people have brought up the issue of Dzogchen as a triumphalist position. But that is missing the point. What I brought up was the fact that much of what is studied in the "lower" vehicles can be passed over when learning Dzogchen.

People seem upset because Dzogchen does position itself both within and outside of the the nine vehicles. I did not invent this. One can read this very same thing in Norbu Rinpoche Crystal and the Way of Light:

"...there is a danger that some readers may make the false assumption that it implies a hierarchy of teachings with Dzogchen at the top. In fact, the whole layout could have been reversed with Dzogchen at the bottom; or the chart could be read from the bottom up which is the sequence in which the gradual paths are presented and practiced, each stage having to be completed before the next can be approached. Dzogchgen differs from gradual paths because the master introduces the disciple directly to the Great Perfection, which is the heart of all paths. But the reason so many paths exist is that there is a teaching suited to the capacity of every indivuidual. So, for example, for someone to whom sutra teaching is best suited, that teaching can be said be the "highest", because that teaching will work best for that individual. Any use of the words "high" and "highest" in relation to the Dzogchen teachings, should be read with this important proviso in mind." pg. 53

"Gradual paths insist that a practitioner must work from here upwards. Dzogchen, on the other hand, doesn't adopt a hierachical approach; it poceeds right away on the basis of of the master giving the student a Direct Introduction to the primordial state to enable the student to recognize that state for him or herself, and then remain in it.

Dzogchen is beyond limits, and the practices of any of the other levels can be used a secondary practices by a Dzogchen practitioner. But the principle practice of Dzogchen is to enter directly into a non-dual contemplation, and to remain in it, continuuing to deepen it until one reaches total realization." pg. 175

My concern here in this thread is not defending Dzogchen as the highest. My interest in the OP's question has to do with certain features I have observed in reading original Dzogchen texts, and seeing that they consistently confirm and reinforce many things my teacher has said in the 36 years he has been teaching Dzogchen around the world.

I don't have a partcular agenda in sharing these thoughts with people. I am a pretty open book and people have seen the evolution (or degeneration) of my thinking on various topics based on my study and practice. We have all been having a long conversation with each other for many years now. Sometimes my thoughts make people happy and sometimes they do not.

Dronma wrote:Yes, the answer is yes! I have heard this from Rinpoche himself.

As have I if I'm not mistaken.

Although isn't it also the case, just as Higher Tantra is more rapid than lower Tantra, that Longde and Menngagde are more rapid than Semde for reaching the Fruition of the Great Perfection?

Namdrol wrote:But there are other practices in Dzogchen for supporting and reinforcing the experience of introduction so it is not certain that the two stages are necessary in Dzogchen practice at all, though it can be helpful for some. Also since the teaching of the basis in Anuyoga and Atiyoga is the same, for this reason Anuyoga practice is especially suited for Dzogchen practitioners who need or want to practice the two stages.

That's what I was thinking, when in another thread I'd referred to the Alexander Berzin quote that I've (for the record Gregkavarnos ) quoted four times:

Lhug-Pa wrote:Alexander Berzin wrote that the pathways of our channels should be "greased" beforehand, through Generation and Completion stage practices, before taking up the practice of Dzogchen (not to say that they have to be perfected, just "greased").

However if we currently don't have time for Tun's and Generation & Completion practices, it seems that basic Shamatha, and Rushens, Yantra Yoga, and Guru Yoga (complemented by Vajra Recitation throughout the day) would achieve the same thing (and of course always dedicating the merit for all sentient beings).

Namdrol wrote:But there are other practices in Dzogchen for supporting and reinforcing the experience of introduction so it is not certain that the two stages are necessary in Dzogchen practice at all, though it can be helpful for some. Also since the teaching of the basis in Anuyoga and Atiyoga is the same, for this reason Anuyoga practice is especially suited for Dzogchen practitioners who need or want to practice the two stages.

But beyond this, methods such as fire puja, sang offerings, lungta, namkha, lüd, bla gug, etc., all these practices from the mundane vehicles can also be employed for the health and well being of the pracitioner.

But Dzogchen as such as self-sufficient. The Dzogchen tantras themselves describe a complete teaching that is not dependent on any other teaching, but which can be integrated with anything a practitioner needs.

N

I agree that the two stages are not necessary in Dzogchen practice, but Anuyoga does not contain the two stages. The Generation stage (T:kye rim; S:utpatti-krama) and the Completion stage (Tibetan:dzog rim; Sanskrit:saṃpanna-krama) exist in Anuttarayoga Tantra, hence until Mahayoga (according to the nine-yāna formulation of Nyingma). The realization of the non-duality of both stages is giving the fruit of Mahamudra. However, in Anuyoga there is emphasis exclusively to the Completion stage. Like ChNN Rinpoche is teaching, the manifestation during any visualization is always instant like a reflection in the mirror which does not need any analytic construction, is never separated from us, and at the end there is not at all the procedure of absorption. Dzogchen is not a doctrine or dogma which can contain this and exclude the other. Dzogchen is our natural condition which cannot be limited by any framework (new or old).... Dear Namdrol, I assume that you are going through a personal phase of leaving behind you some parts, which is fine! We are all going through different phases of inner discovery and transformation from time to time. The unpleasant tangle starts when we try to establish through our personal experience a universal rule which is good to be followed by everybody.

Last edited by Dronma on Thu May 17, 2012 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

Dronma wrote:I agree that the two stages are not necessary in Dzogchen practice, but Anuyoga does not contain the two stages.

Both Mahāyoga and Anuyoga contain the two stages my dear. Please see section 2.8.5 in Precious Vase.

Thanks.

N

I am trying to find what you are saying in the Precious Vase. I don't see anything in any of the existing 2.8.5 sections. However, I am reading in page 223 about the Essence of Mahayoga: "If there are all the necessary circumstances to practice Mahayoga then we should engage in the stages of Kyedrim and Dzogrim on the basis of the original texts of the Guhyagarbha tantra and in conclusion integrate the final accomplishment of these two stages in the state of rigpa or Total Perfection. In fact, as explained by Padmasambhava, the goal of the view of Mahayoga is Dzogchen. Concequently it is clear that the essence of the practice of Mahayoga, too, should never deviate from this profound view". In the chapter about the Essence of Anuyoga, I don't see any reference in the two stages of Kyedrim and Dzogrim.... Moreover, ChNN Rinpoche is saying to us that not only Atiyoga and Anuyoga but even the goal of Mahayoga is Dzogchen as explained by Padmasambhava himself! So, what are we talking about here??? Which is the Dzogchen that some people like to separate it totally from all these skillful means which had been transmitted by the Realized Dzogchen Masters of our epoch?

PS. Personally, I am not religious or traditional at all. And I hate any kind of folklore in my life!

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

Dronma wrote:I agree that the two stages are not necessary in Dzogchen practice, but Anuyoga does not contain the two stages.

Both Mahāyoga and Anuyoga contain the two stages my dear. Please see section 2.8.5 in Precious Vase.

Thanks.

N

I am trying to find what you are saying in the Precious Vase. I don't see anything in any of the existing 2.8.5 sections. ]

It depends on what edition you are using. I am using the 1999/2000 edition, the outline numbers off by one in the revised translation. The section is titled "the fundamental difference between mahāyoga and anuyoga".

In any event, both Mahāyoga and Anuyoga have the two stages. The difference in the creation stage and completion stage i.e. gradual or non-gradual, marks the difference between Mahāyoga and Anuyoga in terms of method.

Namdrol wrote:I personally ceased being very interested in the intellectual study of tenet systems many years ago when I understood from a work by Gorampa Sonam Senge's that they are unnecessary for Vajrayāna practitioners in general. Since that time I have been primarily interested in the Yogic side of Buddhism once I understood finally that correct view is based on the personal experience of the introduction and not on any intellectual analysis and subsequent meditation. Of course, if you are not a Vajrayāna practitioner, then this intellectual analysis and subsequent meditation is the only method of progress. It can be effective in the very long run, but it requires many lifetimes of effort and application. There is no short path sans secret mantra.

There are others such as Magnus, who may agree with the above, but still believe that it is essential to engage in practices of the two stages and so on and so forth as a preparation for Dzogchen practice and realization.

But there are other practices in Dzogchen for supporting and reinforcing the experience of introduction so it is not certain that the two stages are necessary in Dzogchen practice at all, though it can be helpful for some. Also since the teaching of the basis in Anuyoga and Atiyoga is the same, for this reason Anuyoga practice is especially suited for Dzogchen practitioners who need or want to practice the two stages.

But beyond this, methods such as fire puja, sang offerings, lungta, namkha, lüd, bla gug, etc., all these practices from the mundane vehicles can also be employed for the health and well being of the pracitioner.

But Dzogchen as such as self-sufficient. The Dzogchen tantras themselves describe a complete teaching that is not dependent on any other teaching, but which can be integrated with anything a practitioner needs.

N

Namdrol,

I don't believe it is essential to practice the two stages, where did you ever see me write that? I think it is quite possible that someone might be able to practice only Semde, Longde and Menngakde without any secondary practices from any other Yana but from my own experience I would say that it certainly is rare. So rare indeed that I never met that someone. That of course doesn't mean they don't exist.

All my Guru's give direct introduction to anyone that happen to be present when the moment is right. There is a story about their father Tulku Urgyen once refused a American that turned up at Nagi Gompa dressed up in fancy Lama clothes demanding direct introduction with the words "I don't know anything" and half and hour later when a bus full of Italian tourists turned up gave them a full teaching with included direct introduction. A lot of people got direct introduction from TUR but I think it didn't make them Dzogchen practitioners or even Buddhists (Dharma people).

I think that there is nothing major in Dzogchen that contradict anything in the other Yanas. I am convinced that Garab Dorje himself was a Buddhist (Dharma person) and that he was convinced that what he taught was the Dharma. We know from the story of Manjushrimitra that not everyone understood that at the time, in fact the Manjushrimitra's whole story is about recognizing Garab Dorje's teaching as the epitome of the Buddha's Dharma. I also think that it is between you and your Dzogchen Guru what you practice and don't practice, which Yana's you use or don't use, and I know of no Guru that don't teach methods from the other Yana's. To me it seems like a strange intellectual game trying to separate Dzogchen from the Buddha's Dharma.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Thank you for sharing all this Malcolm, I can dig it, I find it very inspirational. I took a cold hard look at my views and was able to see how much I have been conditioned by polemics and sectarianism as well, and how my view of other traditions was ideologically and religiously fascist.Seeing this honestly and rectifying it is a very liberating experience.Also how my adopted / ingrained views from the gradualist system has constricted me and held me back so much, created so much self doubt. For example self doubt from not completing ngondro before starting the 2 stages, for not being able to cultivate the level of compassion wich is so strongly emphasized for being able to practice vajrayana, I'd have a bad day at work, maybe get pissed off a lot and then think what a miserable practitioner I was and that I shouldn't even be on the mahayana path and should be a theravadin because I can't cultivate this intense level of compassion even though I understand vajrayana quite well and have had no problem otherwise with it, I'd think the dharmapalas were gonna kick my ass etc. because I was so lacking in relative bodhicitta. I knew that ultimately it was a natural part of ones state and all the contrived meditations on relative bodhicitta just weren't helping me as soon as I left the house.I have always believed in a top down approach, I think people should be taught mahamudra etc. right from the get go, time is short, especially when you have to work all week, we are educated people, we can understand more than what we are given credit for sometimes I think, it's really not that difficult. I agree with what you said about the examples of illusion being all you really need to know as far as shunyata goes, there's been so much proliferation, people get so lost in the books. The endless moray of differing views on the wisdom teachings resemble a kafka novel with multiple last chapters.What we need is a way to integrate fully as you have said, not a thousand new books and not more walls to build around our selves and ideas.You have inspired a freer way of viewing myself and others, I'm into dharma I can feel, freedom only feels good.I have shut so many people out, especially when I first started down this path, used it to shut people out, built walls with it, I don't want to feel like a self alienated freak anymore, I'm tired of it, have essentially been a shut in for 10 years now.I have a new view of the world and people now, I think I'll stop the war now, thank you.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

Tarpa wrote:Thank you for sharing all this Malcolm, I can dig it, I find it very inspirational. I took a cold hard look at my views and was able to see how much I have been conditioned by polemics and sectarianism as well, and how my view of other traditions was ideologically and religiously fascist.Seeing this honestly and rectifying it is a very liberating experience.Also how my adopted / ingrained views from the gradualist system has constricted me and held me back so much, created so much self doubt. For example self doubt from not completing ngondro before starting the 2 stages, for not being able to cultivate the level of compassion wich is so strongly emphasized for being able to practice vajrayana, I'd have a bad day at work, maybe get pissed off a lot and then think what a miserable practitioner I was and that I shouldn't even be on the mahayana path and should be a theravadin because I can't cultivate this intense level of compassion even though I understand vajrayana quite well and have had no problem otherwise with it, I'd think the dharmapalas were gonna kick my ass etc. because I was so lacking in relative bodhicitta. I knew that ultimately it was a natural part of ones state and all the contrived meditations on relative bodhicitta just weren't helping me as soon as I left the house.I have always believed in a top down approach, I think people should be taught mahamudra etc. right from the get go, time is short, especially when you have to work all week, we are educated people, we can understand more than what we are given credit for sometimes I think, it's really not that difficult. I agree with what you said about the examples of illusion being all you really need to know as far as shunyata goes, there's been so much proliferation, people get so lost in the books. The endless moray of differing views on the wisdom teachings resemble a kafka novel with multiple last chapters.What we need is a way to integrate fully as you have said, not a thousand new books and not more walls to build around our selves and ideas.You have inspired a freer way of viewing myself and others, I'm into dharma I can feel, freedom only feels good.I have shut so many people out, especially when I first started down this path, used it to shut people out, built walls with it, I don't want to feel like a self alienated freak anymore, I'm tired of it, have essentially been a shut in for 10 years now.I have a new view of the world and people now, I think I'll stop the war now, thank you.

Best of wishes on your path. This is heartwarming to read.

"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hellI would endure it for myriad lifetimes As your companion in practice" --- Gandavyuha Sutra

Malcolm wrote:All that matters is that one's lineage is valid. If someone takes Dzogchen teachings from ChNN -- he never insists that you must adopt Buddhism as your religion. I am very sure now that Dzogchen has burst out of the Tibetan culture sphere, there will indeed be dzogchen masters who are neither buddhist nor bon.

Hi Malcolm - what has ChNN said about the two accumulations and Dzogchen? I'm wondering particularly about accumulation of merit. As you know there are contrived practices within Tibetan Buddhism for the accumulations. How does this work in Dzogchen?

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Malcolm wrote:All that matters is that one's lineage is valid. If someone takes Dzogchen teachings from ChNN -- he never insists that you must adopt Buddhism as your religion. I am very sure now that Dzogchen has burst out of the Tibetan culture sphere, there will indeed be dzogchen masters who are neither buddhist nor bon.

Hi Malcolm - what has ChNN said about the two accumulations and Dzogchen? I'm wondering particularly about accumulation of merit. As you know there are contrived practices within Tibetan Buddhism for the accumulations. How does this work in Dzogchen?

In Dzogchen, as I understand it, the two accumulations have always been complete.

Andrew108 wrote:Hi Malcolm - what has ChNN said about the two accumulations and Dzogchen? I'm wondering particularly about accumulation of merit. As you know there are contrived practices within Tibetan Buddhism for the accumulations. How does this work in Dzogchen?

In Dzogchen, as I understand it, the two accumulations have always been complete.

M

In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Andrew108 wrote:Hi Malcolm - what has ChNN said about the two accumulations and Dzogchen? I'm wondering particularly about accumulation of merit. As you know there are contrived practices within Tibetan Buddhism for the accumulations. How does this work in Dzogchen?

In Dzogchen, as I understand it, the two accumulations have always been complete.

M

In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

It is not the principle of Dzogchen that you need to gather something you do not have. It is the principle of Dzogchen to recognize what you already possess.

Relatively speaking, merit ensures rebirth in higher realms, and that is it.

Accumulating merit or using conceptual methods is like making a candle, while the Dzogchen pointing-out instruction is like lighting the candle. You must have both - the candle and a match - to illuminate the darkness. With inadequate merit, you can pehraps recognize mind essence, but the recognition quickly disappears. Like a match in the darkness, the recognition flickers and dies. You need a stable basis to carry and nourish the flame, and accumulating merit forms that basis - Tsoknyi Rinpoche "Fearless simplicity"

isn't that what happens to many students, besides those like me who did not get anything at all?

Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

Andrew108 wrote:Hi Malcolm - what has ChNN said about the two accumulations and Dzogchen? I'm wondering particularly about accumulation of merit. As you know there are contrived practices within Tibetan Buddhism for the accumulations. How does this work in Dzogchen?

In Dzogchen, as I understand it, the two accumulations have always been complete.

M

In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

That is EXACTLY like saying that something is a universal phenomenon " but that doesn't help you much if you are not in the universe ". There is no choice...literally none. Nada.

heart wrote:In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

It is not the principle of Dzogchen that you need to gather something you do not have. It is the principle of Dzogchen to recognize what you already possess.

Relatively speaking, merit ensures rebirth in higher realms, and that is it.

M

You think merit has an intention? That sounds like God to me. Merit becomes whatever we dedicate it to, that is why we dedicate it to the full enlightenment of all sentient beings.

Long life, happiness, a great Guru that gives you the direct introduction and the possibility to and capacity as well as the will to practice the instructions until full realization, that is merit. If you have to work all day, have no money, never see your Guru, as many of us live. This is certainly a lack of merit.

You can certainly practice anyway but it is a lot more difficult. Merit can't make us recognize the natural state but it certainly helps a lot.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

heart wrote:In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

That is EXACTLY like saying that something is a universal phenomenon " but that doesn't help you much if you are not in the universe ". There is no choice...literally none. Nada.

The natural state never changes, or hides, or disappear, but you get caught up in thoughts and emotions. All sentient beings have the natural state they are just caught up in thoughts and emotions and so they don't recognize it. So either you are a Buddha or you are a sentient being, so there is a choice there. But just recognizing it for a short while don't make you a Buddha it makes you a practitioner on the path. So there is certainly a choice there also.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa