Well, now we get a whole new story about what was "wrong" with the Exit Polls on November 2nd.

As you may recall, the original explanation for the disparity between the Exit Poll results and the Final Results was attributed to the theory that pollsters oversampled female voters. The results at the time, were therefore re-weighted to reflect that theory.

But today, according to CNN's report on a new "internal review" by the Exit Polling Consortium, we find that it was actually due to the fact that "more Kerry supporters participated in the survey than Bush voters".

In other words, had only more voters told the Exit Pollsters they had voted for Bush, the Exit Polls would have matched the Final Results.

In other words, there continues to be no explanation for the Exit Polls not matching the Final Results.

Exit polls overstated John Kerry's share of the vote on November 2, both nationally and in many states, because more Kerry supporters participated in the survey than Bush voters, according to an internal review of the exit-polling process released Wednesday.

The report said it is difficult to pinpoint precisely why, in general, Kerry voters were more likely to participate in the exit poll than were Bush voters. "There were certainly motivational factors that are impossible to quantify," the report said.

Could it be that Kerry voters were more likely to paricipate in the exit poll because there were more Kerry voters than Bush voters? The report, apparently, would like you to not believe that could be the case.

In other words, there continues to be no explanation for the Exit Polls not matching the Final Results.

But lest we determine that there is any reason to be skeptical of CNN's analysis of the report, let's take a look at this graf:

CNN did not air those inaccurate results or post them on its Web site, and CNN's projections of winners on election night were accurate.

That, of course, is true.

Unless you look at actual evidence which shows they are lying. (While you're there, please notice in the two CNN.com screenshots how the Male/Female support for Bush/Kerry changed from one screenshot to the next posted just an hour and twenty minutes later with only 57 new respondents added to a poll of 2,020 respondents. Please also note that the percentage of Male vs. Female respondents stayed consistent over both screenshots at 47%/53%.)

But such unexplained phenomon simply didn't occur according to CNN, so it must be beside the point.

So if the problem was not oversampling of Female voters, what exactly was the problem that leads the consortium to instruct us that the Exit Polls were wrong but the Final Results were right?

CNN's report on the report seems to indicate that there is no reason. Above and beyond the fact that more Kerry voters said they voted for Kerry than Bush voters who said they voted for Bush.

And apparently this occurred --- by a complete freak of nature --- in 26 of 30 states polled:

The new report shows that exit polls overstated Kerry's support in 26 states, while estimates overstated Bush's support in four states.

Clear on all of this yet?

If not, CNN has neatly identified a few more helpful factors to look at:

The report identified several factors that may have contributed to the discrepancy, including:

Distance restrictions from polling places imposed upon the interviewers by election officials at the state and local level. {ed. note: Bush voters shot straight up out of the polling place and down into their car, unlike Kerry voters who walked by the pollsters as they crossed the long distance from the poll to their cars}

Weather conditions, which lowered completion rates at certain polling locations. {ed. note: It rained more on the top of Bush voters heads than on the top of Kerry voters at the same polling locations.}

Multiple precincts voting at the same location as the precinct in the exit poll sample. {ed. note: We have no clue what this would have to do with anything, and can't come up with a joke to make it more absurd than it already sounds.}

Interviewer characteristics, such as age, which were more often related to the errors last year than in past elections. {ed. note: Bush voters don't like talking to younger people. Or, they don't like talking to older people. Whereas Kerry voters, not that there were more of them, will talk to anybody. Or they're making all this bullshit up outta whole cloth.}

Well, I'm glad that's all settled.

UPDATE: MSNBC continues the whitewash, declaring "Exit polls say Bush won fair and square: Report on surveys finds system worked, even with errors". Though their article similarly gives no explanation for what happened...other than saying it happened. Sometimes a headline is enough to sell the messaage apparently.

How about Republicans just not wasting their time with the exit pollsters? The exit polls used more Democrats than Republicans. That is all that happened! Yet, you do not want to believe CNN, instead, you believe a conspiracy!

Two street hustlers from California approached my wife and I in San Antonio but we said nothing and just kept walking. Boy, that pissed them off. When we walked by them again, I heard them say "there they are again" and one guy proceeded to follow us but only briefly. I was aware of what was going on around us at all times and I was glad that I didn't have to introduce them to two friends of mine - Smith and Wesson.

Unless all relevant information was retrieved by subpoena including all data, analysis, internal communications at ME, communications with the media customers... --- zero credibility.

Unless all personnel involved in polling, analysis and communications of results were required to make statements under oath --- zero credibility.

And, even under those conditions, would expect all materials to be scrutinized by independent, non-partisan information experts, statisticians, and forensics experts.

In other words, when it was obvious to many following the events at CNN and elsewhere after ~ 11pm EST 2 Nov 2004 that something inexplicable was happening, I decided I'd consider everything suspect until the full force of the law and independent investigative experts were brought into the matter.

Events of the past 2+ months have only strengthened my perception of intentional manipulation of the purpose and veracity of 'exit polls.' However, that's all it is; my opinion and its not what I do for a living so I may be way, way incorrect.

> Also to disprove another one if his points, this election was the first time Democrats raised more money then the GOP, mostly thru grassroots

Yes, George Soros is a grassroot.

I also thought that campaign finance reform was supposed to fix all of that anyway. I mean, you guys are the ones who said that money is corrupting the system. I believe that money is free speech. I was against the reform bill. Are you being a hypocrit again?

> ban the ingnorant asshole

Yes, you leftists are wanting to ban free speech, yet you say Bush is taking away your rights. Did I mention the word "hypocrit?"

this result was more than predictable. poor mitofsky, having to learn to spin in just these few short weeks. and in the process, trashing his own business, his employees, his methodology, and its overall importance, not to mention credibility. ya gotta wonder what they have on this sad little guy.

if any of you have bothered to follow manjoo's coverage of the election over at salon, i made the mistake of voicing my disgust with his shoddy reporting FOUR times (the guy is rigid, if nothing else).

his last response to me was quite confrontive, bordering on rude (not that i was entirely gracious, myself), challenging me to admit that i would not have accepted a bush win under any circumstances.

to which i responded, yeah, that's almost right, except that the one circumstance in which i would have accepted a bush win would be the one in which i had historical and documented reason to believe that the guy and his cabal would actually engage in an honest enterprise.

had we ANY SINGLE REASON to show us this gang is actually capable of honorable behavior, then i might have been able to muster the shred of faith necessary to believe the results. hey, if the country honestly voted this guy in, fine, i can honestly live with that.

but the facts are these: this gang of lying, cheating, greedy, spiteful, vindictive, and murderous idiots has made their lack of character unequivocally clear, along with their complete disdain for democracy, integrity, and human rights.

to assume that such a nasty crew would set aside their craven personalities for an election that could conceivably take their power - and all their toys - away, well that to me is the epitome of naive. no no, it's beyond naive; it's just plain blind stupidity, no other way to call it.

so yeah, brad, thanks so much for asking the very question this 'cnn revelation' (almost an oxymoron, eh?) provoked in me: just how is it that more kerry supporters responding to exit polls does not mean more people voted for kerry?? the fact that they don't even address that blatant failure of logic is utterly astounding.

For the past several years, I had been watching more and more TV news, CNN, MSNBC, etc. However, I became increasingly disgusted with the inane commentary and superficial coverage of extremely important issues in America and the world today. The employees at these TV news stations are empty-headed, lazy, overpaid individuals who do not in any way earn the title news journalists, or provide a service to America. Do you hear me Blitzer, Matthews, Meet the Press, all of you fakes and fraudsters? So, I cancelled my cable. I'm satisfied. And if anyone in any walk of life says "trust me" - DON'T. It means they cannot justify in any way what they are doing, or plan to do to you. So, the news "you can trust" is your signal that it is probably untrue, or half-true and meant to harm you in the long run.

well, now there is an entire station, I won't be switching to ever. They are so lame anyway: no big loss. Wonder how their ratings are holding up . It would seem the religious zealots would only look at fox and lifetime. new year's resolution. Don't look at tv and don't steryotype. learn to type.

I wish I could live by these words, but I cannot. I hate George Bush and everything he stands for. My father in-law tape recorded Nixon’s resignation and played it every morning while he shaved laughing and smiling. I live for the day I can do the same thing concerning these thugs.
.

“My country is the world and my religion is to do good” (The Rights of Man, 1791).

“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church” (The Age of Reason, 1794).

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity” (The Age of Reason, 1794).

Or, how about Thomas Jefferson:

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which…thus[built] a wall of separation between church and state” (letter to the Danbury [ Connecticut ] Baptist Association, January 1, 1802).

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus… will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter” (letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823).

A little dose of James Madison, perhaps:

“Besides the danger of a direct mixture of Religion & civil Government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded agst. in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations. The power of all corporations ought to be limited in this respect. …The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs. is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles. … Better also to disarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and navy. … Religious proclamations by the Executive [branch] recommending thanksgivings & fasts are shoots from the same root. … Altho’ recommendations only, they imply a religious agency, making no part of the trust delegated to political rulers” (Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical Endowments, circa 1819).

So, please Paul, try to learn something about the 'founding fathers' before preparing your sermons. They meticulously kept 'god' out of the framework of our Constitution and assiduously kept religion and government, separate.

As to all that other stuff you just spewed about Bush --- well, let's just call it what it is --- BUSHIT.

If you want more evidence CNN has lost it. You should have heard Jeff Greenfield this afternoon talking about the musicians performing at the Inaugural. He said Republicans like country and Democrats like rappers & classical pianists no buts about it. Is this the same Jeff Greenfield who wrote speeches for Bobby Kennedy?

I think we all knew CNN was completely full of crap as soon as the DU'ers noticed the arithmetic-defying updates. (or 'tweaks'.. as those of us who think evidence is a useful factor in arguments, would call it!!)

The AP-link-to-tabulator-machines / exit-poll-precision story was also interesting. (I think I read about that one on Bev's site)

I wonder if anyone from Bush's camp (or even a PR company paid by them!!) went to the press and asked them if they'd like to have more accurate exit polls? and whether CNN's changing exit-polls could be related to any direct-link to live data such as AP had access too?? It would at least explain CNN's 'Rovistic' phenomenon in the maths-department during those early hours of Nov 3rd!!

What... did they think nobody was looking??

--

@Atty Jimmo... Insulting people isn't going to stop them from concentrating on the irregularities, the corruption, media manipulation and everything else that has blatantly occured. Please quit being so over-emotional and flying into a torrent of abuse constantly, it's doesn't look good. If you can't wake up to the truth.. at least grow up so you can argue on the same level as everybody else rather than having to resort to insults and trolling.

You won't distract us, you've obviously got time on your hands... so deal with whatever it is that makes you so emotional and hateful when the truth is reported... even try to improve your civility... and then maybe people here will take you a bit more seriously. (no promises though!)

Greenfield has nosedived into the marshmallow fluff of pretend punditry. No CNN for me, no more, never.
(I might take in a little Amy Goodman tomorrow, though.)
And I won't be spending a damned dime either, if there isn't an emergency. What else? I wear blue all the time anyway. I'd broadcast dirges out the windows if I could, but the temperature's hovering around zero. Anything else? Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth would only scare the dog and the cat. But I might not be able to help it.

Educate educate educate us please. Ted Kopple used to educate us so did cnn. Now they only
lie and manipulate us.

Brad , and others like him will help change that. I
have already changed because of truth......I tell
those that will listen. It is amazing how much people care and want to learn and help. You seen
that on election day 2000 and 2004. The votes
were manipulated and we know it. Now it is time
to teach others, Velvet Revolution can educate
the peoples.

Jimmo the Attornio....please do me a favor and
hold your breath......keep holding.......hold it...
for about an hour......thank you

How does one explain that the exit polls got most other races correct, that the dicrepancy only occurs in the Presidential race? I guess the over sampled Democratic voters must have voted Republican in Senate and other races. The "expalinations" are such obvious crap. Maybe there is an explaintion other than fraud that is able to stand up to scrutiny, but I haven't seen it.

Paul deluded himself way up there in comments by saying:"How about Republicans just not wasting their time with the exit pollsters? The exit polls used more Democrats than Republicans. That is all that happened! Yet, you do not want to believe CNN, instead, you believe a conspiracy!"

Okey doke. Fair enough, Paul. Do you have a single piece of evidence to back it up? Or are you pull it --- as I expect --- whole cloth outta your ass like your brilliant comment about "the Founding Fathers rejecting Communism"?

Beyond that, I don't know what "conspiracy" you're talking about. I'm talking about evidence. And for the exit poll disparities to have been some kind of a mistake, well, there is none.

So again, let us know what "evidence" you have to make your claim. I suspect you will have none.

"Two street hustlers from California approached my wife and I in San Antonio but we said nothing and just kept walking. Boy, that pissed them off. When we walked by them again, I heard them say "there they are again" and one guy proceeded to follow us but only briefly. I was aware of what was going on around us at all times and I was glad that I didn't have to introduce them to two friends of mine - Smith and Wesson."

LOL! Paul, have you ever been to San Antonio? Or El Paso? You are more likely to find a Californian street musician in Austin than any Californian anywhere else in Texas, and for good reason. The same reason you probably have never been in California, with the possible exception of San Diego or maybe Orange County. You'd stick out like a sore thumb. At least Jimmo was funny (ha-ha).
You are just funny (strange).

So they released a statement rationalizing the discrepancies, but still no raw data. Are we too stupid to analyze the raw data ourselves? Hey, FOX, ABC, CNN, CBS, NBC. Raw data, raw data, raw data. Let the numbers speak for themselves. By the way, concerning Wicsconsin, exit polls were accurate down to the hair. Why? No voting machines. Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, and some others had voting machines where exit polls weren't accurate. Does it take a genius to figure this one out? So let me get this straight. Bush voters in Wisconsin were willing to participate in polls, but not in Ohio or Florida. Sure, whatever. Me is too stoopid two tink. Mistur CNN pleese doo tinking for mee.

Speaking of "white crows" (ref. #7), I might add that this coloration is not unheard-of. Albinism in crows is rare but recurrent. It is a genetic recessive anomaly, most commonly found in isolated, inbred populations (if my reading is correct).

"Black" and "white" here take on their opposite connotations. Black is the norm, white is the aberration. It is statistically impossible to find a pure population of white crows ( unless, of course, they had all interbred and remained insulated and stable since the Creation.)

We have polled birdwatchers extensively over many cyclical population surveys, and the overwhelming response suggests that crows in the aggregate are not isolationist. They intermingle and interbreed; and they remain, for the most part, black. But we may be mistaken.

CNN has just reported that black crows are exhibitionists and that white crows avoid attention.

"Yeah, Hell Yeah", them Kerry voters just knocked the republicans outta the way so they could get to answer the exit pollsters. Hell in forty years of voting I've never seen an exit pollster. This exit poll nonsense is bullshit with a capital B. You can't believe the MSM if they had their hand on the Bible swearing an oath to the facts of the exit polls.

Has Mitofsky shown a co-relation between "Republicans not responding to exit polls" against variables such as "interviewer distance", "interviewer age", "etc.?

Looking at the numbers, it seems as though he has.

HOWEVER,

has Mitofsky accounted for the overall discrepancy between the exit polls and the election results?

NOT AT ALL!!

Don't believe me? Check out the data in his report. You will quickly find out that even if ALL of his recommendations were implemented --- there would STILL be a significant discrepancy between the exit polls and the official election results.

He concludes that the YOUNG interviewers biased the results because of their age, however A SIGNIFICANT DISCREPANCY STILL EXISTS with older interviewers.

For example, there was still a -7.0 discrepancy with the mean WPE when the age of the interviewer was between 55-64. A similar discrepancy still exists when education and gender is taken into consideration.

This "bottom line" doesn't strike Mitofsky as being important, however. It's only the co-relation that matters.

It's like saying that a bowl of sh*t tastes bad because you added too much pepper.

QUOTE: "Exit polls overstated John Kerry's share of the vote on November 2, both nationally and in many states, because more Kerry supporters participated in the survey than Bush voters, according to an internal review of the exit-polling process released Wednesday."

It's like saying, "It is what it is because it is".
Double-talk....To quote Mark Twain, "Why, not even a burgler could have said that better".

Trying to sell that Bush voters didn't participate in the exit polls to the degree that Kerry voters did - if you buy that, you're a complete fool/atty....

Neocon Dick Morris is on the record as stating that exit polling is extremely dependable. Of course, he said that before he realized what had really happened.

There is one reason why the exit polls reflect more people voting for Kerry than for Bush, and one reason only - more people voted for Kerry than voted for Bush. You could have gotten Dick Morris, himself, to agree with this point, until it came to be against his current political leanings.

America, there is a lot of reform to be done, and there are a lot of crooks and morons that will have to be overcome to get it done. a few of them post on this blog.

I feel John Kerry would not have been much of a president. It has nothing to do with the point: criminal chicanery is running rampant, concerning our vote. It makes no difference which side is doing it. It's wrong, and criminal, no matter which party is doing it. Wisconsin and Washington are just as important to solve as Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, and the other questionable States. The tone of these two States being brought up is NOT in the spirit of the need for SERIOUS election reform. The tone is, "Two wrongs make a right". Most of us are aware that it does not.

Don't remember the details of this article, but I read, recently, where well over 60,000 people were registered to vote in both Florida AND New York, in both 2000, and 2004. If so, these kinds of things need to be stopped. Does it matter to you whether they were registered Democrats or Republicans? It shouldn't.........the article states that the majority were registered Democrats, however.

It's an old saying: "People get the government they deserve"....maybe so. But, in this case, they didn't get the one they voted for. The one they voted for might not have been any better, BUT IT'S NOT THE POINT!

QUOTE: "Exit polls overstated John Kerry's share of the vote on November 2, both nationally and in many states, because more Kerry supporters participated in the survey than Bush voters, according to an internal review of the exit-polling process released Wednesday."

It's like saying, "It is what it is because it is".
Double-talk....To quote Mark Twain, "Why, not even a burgler could have said that better".

Trying to sell that Bush voters didn't participate in the exit polls to the degree that Kerry voters did - if you buy that, you're a complete fool/atty....

Neocon Dick Morris is on the record as stating that exit polling is extremely dependable. Of course, he said that before he realized what had really happened.

There is one reason why the exit polls reflect more people voting for Kerry than for Bush, and one reason only - more people voted for Kerry than voted for Bush. You could have gotten Dick Morris, himself, to agree with this point, until it came to be against his current political leanings.

America, there is a lot of reform to be done, and there are a lot of crooks and morons that will have to be overcome to get it done. a few of them post on this blog.

I feel John Kerry would not have been much of a president. It has nothing to do with the point: criminal chicanery is running rampant, concerning our vote. It makes no difference which side is doing it. It's wrong, and criminal, no matter which party is doing it. Wisconsin and Washington are just as important to solve as Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, and the other questionable States. The tone of these two States being brought up is NOT in the spirit of the need for SERIOUS election reform. The tone is, "Two wrongs make a right". Most of us are aware that it does not.

Don't remember the details of this article, but I read, recently, where well over 60,000 people were registered to vote in both Florida AND New York, in both 2000, and 2004. If so, these kinds of things need to be stopped. Does it matter to you whether they were registered Democrats or Republicans? It shouldn't.........the article states that the majority were registered Democrats, however.

It's an old saying: "People get the government they deserve"....maybe so. But, in this case, they didn't get the one they voted for. The one they voted for might not have been any better, BUT IT'S NOT THE POINT!

Please, do not ban Atty. Jimmo. That only reflects the sort of spirit he reflects. The good people of this board will meet with resistance - it's the price you have to pay in this world.

It's not the right thing to do, to ban him, if that's what you meant by "gone". He's only trying to get to you people, with his garbage. If you let him, he wins. He is baiting you all, it is true. But who chose to bite? Not him. YOU!

The "off-topic" thing may be true. But there's numerous examples of "off-topic" posts by "freindly" posters, also. You will encounter people like him everyday. I know I do. Loudmouth ranters who can't hear anything you say over their own bullroar. You're going to "delete" them, too???

You people here, including Brad, are CORRECT about your subject matter here, and you know it. You need to spend your time PROVING to the Jimmos of the world that you are. That is done by being on the OFFENSE! Spending your time arguing, insulting, and banning with trolls puts you on the DEFENSE. It's not a place you want to be, if you intend to be successful. Stay focused.

Please, do not ban Atty. Jimmo. That only reflects the sort of spirit he reflects. The good people of this board will meet with resistance - it's the price you have to pay in this world.

It's not the right thing to do, to ban him, if that's what you meant by "gone". He's only trying to get to you people, with his garbage. If you let him, he wins. He is baiting you all, it is true. But who chose to bite? Not him. YOU!

The "off-topic" thing may be true. But there's numerous examples of "off-topic" posts by "freindly" posters, also. You will encounter people like him everyday. I know I do. Loudmouth ranters who can't hear anything you say over their own bullroar. You're going to "delete" them, too???

You people here, including Brad, are CORRECT about your subject matter here, and you know it. You need to spend your time PROVING to the Jimmos of the world that you are. That is done by being on the OFFENSE! Spending your time arguing, insulting, and banning with trolls puts you on the DEFENSE. It's not a place you want to be, if you intend to be successful. Stay focused.

Election fraud is wrong no matter who does it - we cannot condemn one party and condone another for the same crime without becoming the hypocrites that we should be united against.

And as for Jimmo/Paul - Yes the trolls are irritating gormless twats with nothing but bile and bluster BUT they do serve a purpose. When we have to provide factual answers to their inane "arguments", we go into the world better prepared to confront them and their ilk in the workplaces, shopping malls and wherever else we encounter these idiots. As they all tend to pass on the same propaganda and dress it up as fact, thwart one piece of BS and you have the facts on hand to thwart again - the more you thwart the better the return on the investment getting the facts in the first place. Practise makes perfect!

Also, silencing the trolls means we adopt the policies of those we despise and become a little more like them, not a happy thought for me.

At the end of the day, it is Brad's call - his blog, his rules. I can see that one would not invite into one's home a dog that wasn't house trained and we've all seen the shit that proves Jimmo isn't even close. I also know that right now Brad is majorly busy with VR and so probably can't keep tabs on the trolls as much he would like, so I can see he would ban the troll. "Great Spirit, let me not judge my neighbour until I have walked a day in his moccasins" - probably apocryphal, but I like the sentiment anyway.

Whats going on is CNN is covering their butts. The unspoken rule of journalism is that you DON'T take on the Bushes. If you do you will get creamed. What happened to NBC and Rather was not that they did bad journalism, but that they didn't cross ALL their T's and dot ALL their i's before going to press. Amazing that the Bushes could get a pulitzer prize winning reporter fired over a story that at its base was true.

So, for the first time ever, they happened to poll one party's voters more than another's, by accident, and the accident was all for Kerry? It's the same coincidence, that computerized voting machines and optical scanners ALL had more final votes for Bush than Kerry vs. paper ballots. Do they think we're stupid?

Bob, your comment about Kerry in post #49/#50 (which were the same post) may well be true. We'll never know how good a president Kerry may, or may not, have been. He would have been working against an opposition congress, anyway.
But...... it would have been a daunting task to undo the mess this current bunch has created in the world. In four more years that task will become a much more difficult one.
This is a Fascist-leaning group in power, that has skillfully used the media to throw up a smokescreen, using biased news-reporting, religion, fear, racial phobia, etc., to get people to vote for a group who's hands are, figuratively, shoved right down their pockets. Anybody who is NOT a millionaire business owner has no good reason to have voted for this administration. (On top of everything else, it's likely that not nearly as many people voted for them as they would have us believe).
They are steadily working towards achieving a goal of neutering the middle class, to where there will be a rich ruling class, and a very large, hopeless, mass of people who can't afford a home or car.
I think they will be stopped. I pray I'm right.

What are you going to believe, the "results" or the exit polls? The widespread pattern of intentional fraud, "coincidental" deviations in the final "results", and entrenched conflicts of interest within election the administration, lead me to believe the exit polls.

The big problem is, Dan (#57) and Winter Patriot (#58), is that they're right................at least, about the majority.

You present people with all of these facts (not enough machines in Democratic polling districts, door-to-door misinformation, unaccountable Diebold optical-scanning inconsistencies with traditionally-dependable exit polling [all favoring only George Bush and no other Republican candidates], etc.,) and they don't want to believe it.

Who was it that said, "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it", simply because people want to think that nobody would seriously entertain trying anything that big - either that, or the guy they wanted was the winner, so they just don't care?

Doug Henning made elephants disappear. How many people had the attention span to bother to find out how? No time. Got to go wash the car, watch another station, or go to work. It all ties in to why people vote for movie actors, quarterbacks. pitchers, and wrestlers. They base their vote on the illusion, because researching the reality takes too much work.

I have a lasting memory of a woman in a bowling alley in Ohio, being asked why she voted for Bush. She giggled and said, pointing to her husband, "Because he told me to".

These guys KNOW how to do exit polls, they weigh them for all kinds of factors. Blatantly silly explanations like this, coming AFTER THE FACT, are efforts to transform doo doo into a nice little cake. And really the tortured logic, to me, indicates duplicity all by itself. There's Dick Morris's comment that exit polls are hardly ever wrong, the similar situation in Ukraine which WAS taken seriously. But what do we have here? Logic twisted up into a big narly wad. Seems kinda funny to me. Brad, thanks for putting this stuff out there for public debate and a good laugh. I had been thinking that maybe we should carefully choose which absurdities to jump on. Because, I thought, if we wrestle every weasel the right unleashes, we will seriously cut into activist time and waste our precious anger on small things. And there are so many of them. This dictatorship is COMPOSED of lies and absurdities.
But there's such a strong argument for confronting them with facts on every lie they dish out. It won't affect those propagating the lies, but others may be able to see the gap between the make believe world and reality. If we don't stand up squarely and stop the lies now methinks it will only be harder tomorrow.

We have enered a phase in US History where you can no longer speak truth to power - sad but true. All we can do is try to do is to let people know the truth - that's why I have sworn to myself that wherever and whenever I find a right wing big mouth I will pummel them with the truth. I don't count on converting them, most will never admit that they are wrong but it may achieve two things:

1. Any onlookers will hear BOTH sides and at least have the opportunity to make their own minds up. I'm convinced that most would rather watch celebrity big brother than attempt a ratrional thought of their own, but I have to try.

2. If the troll is made to look foolish (and you've met these people - it generally isn't difficult), they may engage their miniscule brains before sounding off again, or even better just slink off and shut the fuck up.

Both of these work in the favour of my cause, so are well worth the small amount of time and effort required.

I know that it's not much, but in the absence of an effective MSM, I figure that every little helps. I'm generally not a confrontational man by nature, live and let live is my motto but once I'm riled I can get very stroppy indeed. In fact this sums it up rather nicely:

In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head.

In other words, no more mister nice guy, I'm mad as hell, taking names and kicking arses. I will not be deflected by trolls, I merely consider them a snack until I get to the main course - something to sharpen my teeth on. My mission is to draw public scorn and ridicule on these morons and prove to everyone that I can what lying, thieving, conniving weasles they are.

The fact of the matter is that we need a majority to throw these scum out of office and hopefully into a courtroom and to do that we need to get the truth out there. The MSM have shown us time and again that they won't do it, I can't broadcast to the nation, I can't afford a billboard or a full page newspaper ad, but I can tackle the arseholes and force them to defend their lies and that is exactly what I will do. That's why I'm so grateful to Brad for this forum, I wish I could do it but I just don't have the time.

Keep the faith!

PS. If I had to disagree with Granny D on one thing it's that love will turn all this around. I'm staying angry - BRING ON TROLLS BRAD, I'M GETTING PECKISH!

Watching Ted Kopple's Nightline last night in his feeble attempts to address the election issue just made my blood boil. Not once was the matter of Republican manufactured and programed voting machines mentioned as a matter of concern. Sec. of State Kenneth Blackwell was presented as an honorable man with the best of intentions while we all know that given the motive, which we know he had and the opportunity which he also had, he acted less than "Saintly" in the performance of his duties.
Nowhere was there any mention of the 102 pages of documented "irregularities" from the House Judiciary and Rep. John Conyers. I doubt that Kopple was even aware of it's existence let alone that he might have read it. Such passes as journalistic reporting! What a farce!
Cokie Roberts response that such "shenanigans" were to be expected and happened at most elections and her "teen age attitude" of "everybody's doing it so what?" raised my blood pressure about 20 points. I wanted to smack her up aside the head and remind her that these were people precious votes that she was so recklessly dismissing. The entire report did a real disservice
to the cause of election reform and disgusted me with their disregard of the rights of voters. Spin, spin, spin. I had always thought better of Kopple but he really showed his colors (yellow) last night.

Val Zudell #64,
I was going to mention bloodpressure myself. I flip through the channels quickly so I can't focus on the mendacious faces of those bastards. I can't stand to look at Chris Matthews, or Tim Russert or any of em'. On Nov 3d they turned into "pod people". I don't know who they are. Your account really pisses me off too.

Da Wookie #63
I think we have to to what you're doing. They've bullied and beaten us for too long , and we didn't take them seriously. As someone said, can't remember who, silence just gives them permission. I have a friend who was born and raised abroad. She's seen all this before. She said people have to be brave, they have to be willing to go to jail. They have to stand up and say the truth. She also said the government can't really control the people, the people band together and find covert ways to communicate. I loved that.

Does anyone know if the Frist rumor is accurate? One site got information from the Swift Report but can't verify it yet. Frist is supposed to have said that "political paranoia" should be classified as mental illness. Symptoms would include things like believing in voter fraud , FBI surveillance, etc. A "cure" ,of course, would be Paxil. If it's not true it's really funny. If it is true it will be funny after you have a couple of drinks.

> LOL! Paul, have you ever been to San Antonio? Or El Paso? You are more likely to find a Californian street musician in Austin than any Californian anywhere else in Texas, and for good reason. The same reason you probably have never been in California, with the possible exception of San Diego or maybe Orange County. You'd stick out like a sore thumb. At least Jimmo was funny (ha-ha). You are just funny (strange).

Yes, I was born and raised in Texas and have been to San Antonio several times. I used to live in El Paso for five years. I have been to California about 15 times - LA, San Diego, San Fran, and I have slept in Brad's Hollywood apartment. I have been to almost all 50 states, Mexico several times, Canada several times, Moscow, Kazakhstan, and Paris. I fit right in with any local folks. I am good friends with a top pop/rock band in Russia and they originally thought I was in the KGB because I could speak Russian so well. I have seen what communism has done to a people and a country.

I just have problems with you communist socialist leftist liberal "ideas" and I have been meaning to read Ann Coulter's new book!

As long as we have partisan Republican companies like Diebold, Triad, ES&S and others controling the vote counts we will continue to have "faulty" exit polls. The strange exit poll numbers began to appear at the same time as the e-voting machines (just ask Max Cleland about his defeat in Georgia in 2002) In a real Democracy citizens count the vote in in the open. In America private companies with strong ties to the GOP count the votes in private. I think we can expect more unexplained exit poll numbers and Rupublican victories in 2006.

"I just have problems with you communist socialist leftist liberal "ideas" and I have been meaning to read Ann Coulter's new book!"

But again he got it all wrong.

The fact that we want to see fair elections does not imply that we are all communists or socialists or even liberals or leftists. And the fact that we oppose this war for oil does not imply any of those things either.

This is not about right vs. left, Paul. It's about right vs. wrong.

If, as you profess, you believe in free-market capitalism, then you support the practice of buying and selling goods and services.

And so I ask you: Why do you think it was such a good idea to demolish Iraq for its oil?

Paul doesn't understand the difference between totalitarianism and everything else. Spending time in Russia doesn't give you any idea about what "communism" is. It's never been tried on a large scale. Ever. Democratic socialism has been put into practice throughout most of the world, quite successfully. And relatively few of those countries, with the possible exception France and England, make war on their neighbors, or get attacked by them. They gave up their empires because they came to understand that they were more trouble than they were worth, and those guys had plenty of experience with empires. We used to be a colony once, remember? Communism is not what you saw in Russia. Not when you were there. It was tried there briefly, long before you were born. Marx is not a dirty word in most of the world, Paul. And I'll bet you've never heard of Henry George, either. And he's as American as apple pie. You have to wonder about that. At one time he was as famous as Mark Twain. The reason you've never heard of him is because certain people thought he was far more "dangerous" than Karl Marx. He actually invented a very popular game you probably love to play. He invented it as tool to teach his philosophy of economics. It now goes by the name of Monopoly, but you really have to look hard to find about about Henry George. Someone else even took the credit and the patent for his game. It's possible to have totalitarian regimes in a capitalist democracies, Paul. The ancient Greeks managed it. So did the Nazis. Labels are meaningless, and you are quite clearly politically naive if you think a label is the same as the content of the jar.

as I said, labels are nonsense, Paul. You are far to concerned with the label to ever look past it to the actual content of the container. Read whatever you like, it's a free country. But you would be mistaken to assume that you really know your "left" from your "right" and Ann Coulter sure as hell doesn't. I like to use the words like "socialism" and "communism" because they are only words associated with ideas and are in and of themselves, harmless, and certain people. like yourself, really need to become desensitized to them. People who recoil in horror at the mere mention of them are neurotic and obsessive, in my humble opinion. I am far to the left of some and far to the right of others, but this kind of sums up what I think is true.
It's a Georgist politico-economic philosophy and it's 100% American made.

"The bottom line to all this is that economic freedom leads to the most prosperity. Don't restrict labor and capital other than to prevent coercive harm to others. Don't tax labor or enterprise. Get public revenues from rent and pollution fees. Let the market handle the money and banking. True free trade and enterprise are good; decentralized and market-based governance works best. As Henry George said, economics and ethics are one. The environment and the economy are one. Good governance and economics are one. Share rent, charge for damage, don't steal wages."

"Even with these improvements, differences in response rates between Democratic and Republican voters may still occur in future elections," the report reads. "However, we believe that these steps will help to minimize the discrepancies."

In order to determine that there was a discrepancy between response rates, one must compare the exit poll party affiliation response rates with some other party affiliation response rate, right? Let's pick the most likely comparison and assume that the exit poll party affiliation response with what they call "actual turnout" party affiliation. "Actual turnout" would be the number of Republicans and Democrats that sign in, and that number is posted in the polling place throughout the day.

So, let's say then that there were more Republicans showing up per the "actual turnout" tally than there were completing exit poll surveys. I think that's a fair guess at what exactly they are talking about when they say, discrepant.

Here's the crux. Didn't we hear so much about voter registration being switched? So, lets say a Democrat shows up to vote but the registration roll was switched to Republican. I sign in, vote for Kerry, and I complete an exit poll as an Democrat. That means the "actual turnout" is 1 Republican, 1 vote for Kerry, while the exit poll shows 1 Democratic vote for Kerry. That's a discrepancy. Multiply that by a bunch of registrations at "actual turnout" being switched to Republican and you have what appears to be oversampling in exit polls of Democrats. This means the exit polls were right, the actual turnout was wrong. I am sure that Mitofsky et al use actual turnout as a guide throughout the day. No one in their right mind ignores pertinent information. Unfortunately, if that information is bogus, you have a problem.

We need to look at, perhaps subpeona, the voter registration rolls used on Nov 2.

Actually, Paul's being born and raised in Texas explains it better, although I know Texans who would as soon shoot you for mentioning Bush's name. And as some Texans go, Paul is far from the worst. He's a friend of Brads's after all. A testament to Brad if there ever was one and a sign that all hope is not lost for Paul.