Mistral News thread #2

MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The first team of Russian experts has already departed for France to discuss the timeframe for dismantling the equipment from the Mistral helicopter carriers and for signing a respective agreement, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation sector said. "The first team of specialists from Russia left for France these days to sign a deal detailing the timeframe and other technical issues for dismantling the equipment from Mistrals," the source told TASS on Tuesday.

The second Russian team is likely to come to France in early October, he said. Earlier reports said the Russian experts were expected to arrive in France in September to dismantle the equipment. Telecommunications and control systems for the two helicopter carriers were designed and manufactured by the Russian Sistemy Upravleniya corporation.

The Mistrals are used for the transportation of troops and landfall operations and are also used as command ships. Each of them can carry up to sixteen heavy-duty or thirty-two light helicopters and up to 900 soldiers with armored cars and amphibious assault boats.

JohninMK wrote:MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The first team of Russian experts has already departed for France to discuss the timeframe for dismantling the equipment from the Mistral helicopter carriers and for signing a respective agreement, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation sector said. "The first team of specialists from Russia left for France these days to sign a deal detailing the timeframe and other technical issues for dismantling the equipment from Mistrals," the source told TASS on Tuesday.

The second Russian team is likely to come to France in early October, he said. Earlier reports said the Russian experts were expected to arrive in France in September to dismantle the equipment. Telecommunications and control systems for the two helicopter carriers were designed and manufactured by the Russian Sistemy Upravleniya corporation.

The Mistrals are used for the transportation of troops and landfall operations and are also used as command ships. Each of them can carry up to sixteen heavy-duty or thirty-two light helicopters and up to 900 soldiers with armored cars and amphibious assault boats.

How much did the French pay back for the cancellation of mistral deal with Russian dose anyone knowWith the penalty

JohninMK wrote:MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The first team of Russian experts has already departed for France to discuss the timeframe for dismantling the equipment from the Mistral helicopter carriers and for signing a respective agreement, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation sector said. "The first team of specialists from Russia left for France these days to sign a deal detailing the timeframe and other technical issues for dismantling the equipment from Mistrals," the source told TASS on Tuesday.

The second Russian team is likely to come to France in early October, he said. Earlier reports said the Russian experts were expected to arrive in France in September to dismantle the equipment. Telecommunications and control systems for the two helicopter carriers were designed and manufactured by the Russian Sistemy Upravleniya corporation.

The Mistrals are used for the transportation of troops and landfall operations and are also used as command ships. Each of them can carry up to sixteen heavy-duty or thirty-two light helicopters and up to 900 soldiers with armored cars and amphibious assault boats.

How much did the French pay back for the cancellation of mistral deal with Russian dose anyone knowWith the penalty

You may not realise just how apt that question is.

A few weeks ago we had both sides saying that the (undisclosed) amount was agreed and had been paid. Now today we have this.

PARIS, August 25. /TASS/. A draft agreement regarding the size of France’s payment for the severed deal to supply Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia will be considered Wednesday, August 26, at a meeting of the French Council of Ministers, sources in the Elysee Palace told AFP.

Earlier, French Finance Michel Sapin said the size of payments France will make to Russia in connection with the termination of the contract to build and supply two Mistral helicopter carriers will be "less than €1 billion."

Later, French President Francois Hollande said during a visit to Egypt that the sum "will be less than €1.2 billion", that was the initial cost of the contract. The president explained that the exact size of payments will be reported to parliament when it considers the issue in mid-September.

I wonder if the payment to Russia is coming under different budgets to minimise the headline figure?

PARIS (Sputnik) — The amount of compensation paid to Russia for terminating the contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers by France does not exceed 1 billion euro ($1.1 billion), French government spokesman Stephan Le Foll said Wednesday. "I can tell you that the level of the cost for France is less than one billion euros, regardless of what is said. The exact value will be announced by lawmakers," Le Foll said at a press briefing, adding that no further compensation would follow.

Moscow and Paris signed a 1.2-billion-euro agreement for the purchase of two French Mistral-class helicopter carriers in 2011.

In November 2014, Paris suspended the delivery of the first ship, citing Moscow's alleged participation in the Ukrainian conflict. Russia has repeatedly denied the allegations.

Earlier in August, Moscow and Paris formally terminated the contract. France promised to reimburse Russia the entire sum it paid for the ships, while French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian later said that the refund would amount to less than the original price.

JohninMK wrote:I wonder if the payment to Russia is coming under different budgets to minimise the headline figure?

PARIS (Sputnik) — The amount of compensation paid to Russia for terminating the contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers by France does not exceed 1 billion euro ($1.1 billion), French government spokesman Stephan Le Foll said Wednesday. "I can tell you that the level of the cost for France is less than one billion euros, regardless of what is said. The exact value will be announced by lawmakers," Le Foll said at a press briefing, adding that no further compensation would follow.

Moscow and Paris signed a 1.2-billion-euro agreement for the purchase of two French Mistral-class helicopter carriers in 2011.

In November 2014, Paris suspended the delivery of the first ship, citing Moscow's alleged participation in the Ukrainian conflict. Russia has repeatedly denied the allegations.

Earlier in August, Moscow and Paris formally terminated the contract. France promised to reimburse Russia the entire sum it paid for the ships, while French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian later said that the refund would amount to less than the original price.

Probably due to the rouble's fall, less Euros are needed to refund the same amount of Roubles paid, with room to spare for compensation too.Russia should be more than adequately reimbursed.All in all, a win for everyone.

JohninMK wrote:I wonder if the payment to Russia is coming under different budgets to minimise the headline figure?

PARIS (Sputnik) — The amount of compensation paid to Russia for terminating the contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers by France does not exceed 1 billion euro ($1.1 billion), French government spokesman Stephan Le Foll said Wednesday. "I can tell you that the level of the cost for France is less than one billion euros, regardless of what is said. The exact value will be announced by lawmakers," Le Foll said at a press briefing, adding that no further compensation would follow.

Moscow and Paris signed a 1.2-billion-euro agreement for the purchase of two French Mistral-class helicopter carriers in 2011.

In November 2014, Paris suspended the delivery of the first ship, citing Moscow's alleged participation in the Ukrainian conflict. Russia has repeatedly denied the allegations.

Earlier in August, Moscow and Paris formally terminated the contract. France promised to reimburse Russia the entire sum it paid for the ships, while French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian later said that the refund would amount to less than the original price.

Probably due to the rouble's fall, less Euros are needed to refund the same amount of Roubles paid, with room to spare for compensation too.Russia should be more than adequately reimbursed.All in all, a win for everyone.

Surely the contract was signed in €, then the fixed amounts for compensation should be also in €. It is likely that the lower value of the rouble means more roubles instead of less euros. But still, the amounts have been payed? if not Russia, can have problems.

According to a high-ranking source, France has returned Russia all the money for the Mistrals.

ZHUKOVSKY (Sputnik) — France has transferred around 900 million euro ($1 billion) to Russia for terminating the contract to deliver two Mistral-class helicopter carriers, a high-ranking source in Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation said Thursday.

"France has returned Russia all the money for the Mistrals, around 900 million euro. Russia had directly paid 800 million euro for the Mistrals at the time of the contract termination," the official told RIA Novosti.

On Wednesday, French government spokesman Stephan Le Foll said the amount of compensation paid to Russia for terminating the contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers by France would not exceed 1 billion euro.

Russia has yet to allow France to re-export two Mistral-class helicopter carriers to third countries, according to the source.

"Despite the fact that France has transferred all the funds for failing to deliver the Mistrals, around 900 million euro, France has not yet been given permission by Russia to re-export these ships," the source said.

Under the 1.2 billion euro ($1.37 billion at current exchange rates) contract signed in 2011, France agreed to sell two Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Russia.

In November 2014, France put the delivery on hold as a punitive measure in response to allegations that Russia was interfering in the Ukrainian crisis. Moscow has consistently denied the accusations.

On August 5, Paris and Moscow terminated the contract for delivery of the Mistrals. France promised to reimburse Russia the entire sum it paid for the ships, while French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian later said that the refund would amount to less than the original price.

Here comes the sting in the tail of the agreement, Moscow controls the sale which, if this is true, it seems they could drag out for years.

MOSCOW, August 31. /TASS/. France has to agree a prospective buyer for Mistral helicopter carriers with Russia, with no time limits set for such approval, an informed source in the Russian government said on Monday. "Russia must approve a prospective buyer while no time limits for this approval are set," the source said.

The €1.12 billion contract for the construction of two Mistral-type helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy was signed in June 2011. Under the contract, Russia was expected to receive the first of the two warships, the Vladivostok, in the autumn of 2014. However, Paris suspended the ship’s handover to Russia at the very last moment over Moscow’s stance on developments in neighboring Ukraine.

It was planned that the second ship dubbed the Sevastopol would be handed over to Russia in the second half of 2015. But the deal was suspended like in the case with the first Mistral ship. News came in the summer of 2015 that Russia and France had agreed on the fate of the two Mistral helicopter carriers. Under the agreement, Russia would get back its money paid for the Mistral construction, after France would be able to use the amphibious ships at its discretion.

The media has already named a whole number of prospective buyers for the Mistral helicopter carriers, including Egypt and Malaysia.

Looks like the French Parliament is going to have its say on the sad saga in a couple of weeks and I don't think it will be pretty.

French lower-house National Assembly Foreign Affairs Committee member said the Committee will consider the case of termination of the contract for delivery of the French-made Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia on September 16.

PARIS (Sputnik) — According to Thierry Mariani, France's National Assembly is expected to consider the Mistral case not earlier than late September. "On September 16, the Mistral case file will be presented at the session of the parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee," Thierry Mariani told RIA Novosti.

Moscow and Paris signed a 1.2-billion-euro ($1.35 billion) agreement for the purchase of two French Mistral-class helicopter carriers in 2011. Paris suspended the delivery of the first ship last November, citing Moscow's alleged participation in the Ukrainian conflict. Russia has repeatedly denied the allegations. The sides officially terminated the contract earlier this month. France promised to reimburse Russia the entire sum it had paid for the ships.

Earlier Monday, a governmental source told journalists that $1.1 billion in compensation from France for the Mistral Ships was already in Moscow.

"Moscow plans to offer Kamov Ka-52K helicopters to a country interested in purchasing the two Mistral warships which France originally built for the Russian Navy, the Kommersant newspaper reported, citing anonymous sources.The Ka-52K rotorcraft are specifically tailored for the amphibious assault ships. Russia built a total of four machines to serve on the Mistrals before the arms deal was cancelled in August.

No nation has formally confirmed its decision to buy the helicopter carriers but many speculate that Brazil, Egypt, India, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Vietnam and the United Arab Emirates are contemplating adding the amphibious assault ships to their fleet.

A source told the daily that Egypt’s President Abdel-Fattah al-Sis discussed the Mistrals with Vladimir Putin while on a visit to Moscow last week. “Sisi expressed interest in the possibility of buying the helicopter carriers from the French but it was a purely theoretical interest. … Obviously, they need financial assistance from a third party to purchase the ships,” the source added but declined to comment on whether Russia could serve as a creditor.

Earlier, reports emerged that Saudi Arabia could buy the two Mistrals which would likely be docked in Egypt. The oil kingdom views the amphibious assault ships as a means to project its own power in the region. They could also become part of the joint Arab force project which was recently unveiled by Riyadh and Cairo.

Regardless of who will buy the two Mistral, France will have to discuss the matter with Russia since Moscow has power to veto such a transaction. Meanwhile, the Vladivostok and the Sevastopol built under a $1.3 billion deal are docked at a shipyard in Saint-Nazaire."

NIZHNY TAGIL/Sverdlovsk region/, September 9. /TASS/. The works on dismantling Russia’s equipment from Mistral helicopter carriers built for Moscow will begin in late September, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation sphere has said. "Our specialists have returned from France where they discussed the order of dismantling the Russian equipment from the helicopter carriers. It will begin after September 20," the source said.

The French side will remove the equipment under control of Russia’s specialists. "We have already issued demands for our French colleagues for wrapping and transporting the equipment," the source said. The Russian equipment includes all ship-borne combat information and control systems, systems controlling missile fire, artillery complexes and the helicopter landing control module.

In early August, Russia and France reached an agreement to officially cancel the contract. Under the deal, Russia gets the money and the equipment back, and France will then be able to use the warships.

Moscow has signaled that Russian equipment fitted on the two Mistrals that were built for Russia could stay on board if Egypt, the leading prospective buyer, bought the helicopter carriers, a French official said.

“Russia could accept India and Egypt receiving the equipment,” with Cairo the prime candidate for buying the warships, the official said Sept. 7. Russian authorities “let it be known” in negotiations with French officials about the cancellation of the 2011 sale contract.

Militarov wrote:Moscow has signaled that Russian equipment fitted on the two Mistrals that were built for Russia could stay on board if Egypt, the leading prospective buyer, bought the helicopter carriers, a French official said.

“Russia could accept India and Egypt receiving the equipment,” with Cairo the prime candidate for buying the warships, the official said Sept. 7. Russian authorities “let it be known” in negotiations with French officials about the cancellation of the 2011 sale contract.

"France's National Assembly approved a bill on Thursday on terminating the contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Russia. The implementation of the Mistral deal, reached in 2011, was initially suspended by France in 2014 over Russia's alleged participation in the Ukraine conflict. The Mistral deal was officially terminated in August. France repaid Russia around 900 million euro ($1 billion at the current exchange rates) in compensation for terminating the contract. Egypt, Canada, India and Singapore emerged as potential Mistral buyers after France suspended its delivery of the two ships to Russia, according to French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius."

When I first read about France not giving Mistrals to Russia, I was like "Who cares these ships are worthless" but after doing more research on these kinds of ships and the amount of US military bases around the world, I now get why these types of ships are very important. I really hope Russia had gotten those Mistrals.

par far wrote:When I first read about France not giving Mistrals to Russia, I was like "Who cares these ships are worthless" but after doing more research on these kinds of ships and the amount of US military bases around the world, I now get why these types of ships are very important. I really hope Russia had gotten those Mistrals.

If Russia really needed these barges then it should have built them itself. It is downright insulting to Russian history and current level to claim that it couldnot produce equivalent products. But the fact is that these were yet more of Serdyukov's BS contracts to NATO states that served no purpose other thansome nonsense attempt at diplomacy. How quickly NATO attacked Russia using the coup it engineered itself in Ukraine as the pretext shows exactly theworthlessness of this diplomacy.

par far wrote:When I first read about France not giving Mistrals to Russia, I was like "Who cares these ships are worthless" but after doing more research on these kinds of ships and the amount of US military bases around the world, I now get why these types of ships are very important. I really hope Russia had gotten those Mistrals.

Well... they're handy for more localised power projection. But I wouldn't say they were super necessary for a WW3 type scenario. The major US bases would be quickly neutralized with stand off weaponry. Two heli-carriers are going to make stuff all difference in terms of destroying already established US bases if the proverbial s*** really does hit the fan. We won't be seeing island hopping WW2 shenanigans either. So in all honesty the loss of the Mistrals was fine, even great perhaps, given that we'll now see true Russian replacements.

Outside of a total war heli-carriers are, of course, very useful. So, while the Mistrals would of been handy to have, they're not exactly imperative for preparation of a doomsday conflict.

Russia received twice more than paid for Mistrals in ruble equivalent due to devaluation

"SOCHI, September 18. /TASS/. Russia has already received twice more than it paid for Mistral amphibious landing ships in ruble equivalent because of devaluation, Minister of Industry Denis Manturov said on Friday."As far as I know, they [France — TASS] physically returned money already long time ago. We paid on the basis of the budget formed in rubles; it [the amount of repaid funds] is twice more because of the rate, so we received exactly two times more in ruble mass," the minister said.The contract for two Mistral class amphibious landing ships for the Russian Navy was concluded between Russia and France in summer 2011 but was suspended and ultimately terminated early in August 2015.According to the agreement, Russia will receive compensation about €949.8 mln from France and will return all the Russian equipment mounted on board of Mistral ships. France, in its turn, will have ships in its full disposal with the right of resale."

Mike E wrote:Russia received twice more than paid for Mistrals in ruble equivalent due to devaluation

"SOCHI, September 18. /TASS/. Russia has already received twice more than it paid for Mistral amphibious landing ships in ruble equivalent because of devaluation, Minister of Industry Denis Manturov said on Friday."As far as I know, they [France — TASS] physically returned money already long time ago. We paid on the basis of the budget formed in rubles; it [the amount of repaid funds] is twice more because of the rate, so we received exactly two times more in ruble mass," the minister said.The contract for two Mistral class amphibious landing ships for the Russian Navy was concluded between Russia and France in summer 2011 but was suspended and ultimately terminated early in August 2015.According to the agreement, Russia will receive compensation about €949.8 mln from France and will return all the Russian equipment mounted on board of Mistral ships. France, in its turn, will have ships in its full disposal with the right of resale."

Ruble devaluation really has a lot of...worth.

When one stands back and thinks about the above, it looks kind of silly. But the trick is that the inflation transient in Russia in the wakeof the devaluation was short lived and disappeared as of late spring. So twice the rubles is actually worth something. If the inflation hit 100%, then the two rubles would be worth one pre-devaluation ruble. But the reality is that the cumulative inflation is around 20%.

I am quite sure that NATO was banking on a large inflation surge in Russia.

If Russia really needed these barges then it should have built them itself. It is downright insulting to Russian history and current level to claim that it couldnot produce equivalent products. But the fact is that these were yet more of Serdyukov's BS contracts to NATO states that served no purpose other thansome nonsense attempt at diplomacy. How quickly NATO attacked Russia using the coup it engineered itself in Ukraine as the pretext shows exactly theworthlessness of this diplomacy.

I agree Russia is largely wasting its time trying to improve relations with europe as long as europe is controlled by washington or brussels, because neither centre wants Russia as a friend or an ally... they want it as a resource box it can dig into occasionally when it needs it and expects it to keep quiet and tow the line the rest of the time.

Russia certainly could develop a Mistral class carrier type vessel, but they are no super ship builders... the french don't call them helicopter carriers, they call them command and projection vessels and that is exactly what they are... they would form the core of a landing fleet and would provide ground forces and air mobile forces to distant battlefields.... they would also manage the whole effort and of course provide ongoing support including as a hospital ship for the endeavour.

The concept was developed in 1997 and in october 2004 the first vessel of the class was launched... that is pretty good time for development and production, but then the French ship building industry has not been under funded for the last 20 odd years.

The new modular system/weapon/propulsion standards the Russian Navy is developing will actually make designing and building much faster, and later upgrades should be easier...

To put it in computer terms the windows operating system is not just an operating system... it is also a set of rules and standards.... and if you follow those rules and standards in your design then your software should work on any windows based computer system. Equally your new hardware should also work properly though it will need a piece of software called a driver to tell the operating system what the new hardware can do and how it works and what information it needs to work and what output it can create... if you install the driver you should just need to plug and play to get the new hardware to connect. Of course you will still need to test it to make sure it does not interfere with anything else and that it works properly...

The point is that the Russians could not have developed a mistral class carrier and had it in service last November.... they didn't buy Mistrals as a favour to France, they bought them for the Russian Naval Infantry. They bought them because they wanted them now.

Now they will have to make some themselves, though if the two Mistrals made go to Egypt or India then they might get some sales for their new Ka-52Ks and the electronics suite already installed on the two vessels...

Now they have the full designs of the Mistral class carriers and experience making portions of its hull.. I hope they take their existing plans and adapt them using what they have learned with Mistral and make an even better vessel better adapted to Russian needs and wants... they could certainly improve the self defence armament, but without reducing the helicopter carrying capacity and the vehicle carrying capacity and the troop carrying capacity and the hospital ship capacity... all of which makes it useful in war and in peace.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

GarryB wrote:I would disagree... if you only have ten ships and three are for anti sub use and three are for air defence and four are dedicated antiship destroyers then you can have three different engine types, with three different main battery missile launchers and different sensors and equipment... it actually makes rather more sense to standardise with one main battery missile launcher like UKSK, then all ten ships can be loaded with anti sub or anti ship or land attack missiles or mixtures... they can all have the same engine, similar sensors... whereas a large fleet you can afford to have very different types.

Such degree of specialisation is a choice. The ten ships can perform their different missions without having different engines.

GarryB wrote:Standardisation works in both cases to reduce costs and simplify maintainence and support and training.

Of course, but you did not prove me wrong.

GarryB wrote:Of course it doesn't make them best buddies... just because Russia sells them stuff doesn't mean Russia should risk anything for them, but if they want to it would be good if they actually could rather than just possibly could.

That is not an option.

GarryB wrote:You mean Russia should shape its foreign policy to avoid fulfilling the perverted beliefs of those snakes in the grass? Russia should not give them a second thought and should do what suits them when it suits them.

Not a being nation of easily irritated fools would be enough.

GarryB wrote:Why are they vulnerable? We are not talking about a civilian transport ship filled with helicopters like the British used in the Falklands. These vessels will be military, they will be armed and they will have their own ECM and ESM system to defend themselves....

You were talking about a large ship manufactured according to civilian standards.

GarryB wrote:Most bases there are supported by the military of that country, why should the Russian bases be different?

Mistral was meant as a transport ship with able to launch/land helicopters. It isnt spaced age tech or anything. Russia was interested in the comm systems and having good relations with France. Instead it got burned. I am glad the mistral deal fell through. And now that Russia got more roubles out of it than before, added that inflation is only 16% (and not in everything but selected items), they should use that towards building their own. Or more landing ships or something.

Looks as if they could have been sold for what France paid Russia. Wonder if they will now sail to Russia to finish fitting out?

According to earlier media reports, France will sell the two vessels, initially set to be delivered to Russia, for 950 million euro (over $1 billion).

PARIS (Sputnik) — French President Francois Hollande confirmed Wednesday that a deal has been reached with Egypt on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers. "Over several weeks, we held talks on the Mistral sale with the Egyptian president… And yesterday a decision was made to provide the Mistrals to Egypt, we agreed with President Sisi on the terms and the price. France will not bear any financial costs from this agreement," Hollande told reporters.

France and Russia terminated a $1.3-billion contract last month following Hollande’s suspension of the warships’ deliveries late last year over the Ukrainian conflict. Paris repaid Moscow around $1 billion as compensation for the breached contract.