While waiting for my last pick [Ralph Backstrom], I was going down my lists and trying to figure out who I wanted, who was available and who would probably get picked over the next round or so.....seems like a lot of my favorites are getting snagged.

- Bob Goldham
Didn't know anything about him but researching him quickly made me interested. Not only was his reputation deserved, he was also a natural right handed shot. Sturm was right, he was the BDA.

- Ed Westfall
One of the unheralded from the Bruins late 60's/early 70's teams. Not only was he a great defensive forward but he was also a very good special teams player with almost as many SH goals as he has PP goals.....hated it when the Bruins lost him to the Islanders, (where he became captain), in the expansion draft.

- Rob Ramage
I am intrigued about him. I like him as a player but during his prime he was on some sad sack teams. Always wondered what would've happened if he were on some of the better teams of the era during his prime, although he was a strong contributor on the Flames SC team.

- Ted Green
Terrible Teddy actually became a better defenseman after his head got caved in.....not being as rambunctious and impetuous as before he ended up playing better positionally. Probably jumped to the WHA at the best time possible for him.

- Jimmy Watson
He's a Watson, what more can you say? Major blue line stalwart for the Flyers SC years.

- Rick Tocchet
Was going to be my next pick if he somehow survived til then.....my kind of player.

- Dino Ciccarelli
A major league dick but in this format he would be a great 2nd line winger.

also
- Peter Bondra...a pure sniper.....and it's kind of funny, the current Bruins have a player that like Bondra's post lockout numbers, if averaged out would be very similar, as to this past lockout.

There was some discussion of Bobby Rousseau earlier, and the effect of linemates and PP/ES scoring on his numbers. I have the actual numbers.

1961-62 through 1963-64

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Henri Richard

52

99

151

6

17

23

Ralph Backstrom

54

69

123

3

3

6

Jean Beliveau

36

86

122

28

36

64

Claude Provost

56

61

117

9

15

24

Bobby Rousseau

55

57

112

5

14

19

Gilles Tremblay

61

46

107

16

16

32

Bill Hicke

42

50

92

6

12

18

Bernie Geoffrion

48

42

90

18

29

47

ES points shared with

Jean Beliveau

40

Gilles Tremblay

35

Henri Richard

32

Rousseau was a complementary top line player during these three seasons, scoring primarily at ES and receiving little PP time. Beliveau and Tremblay were his primary linemates in his first two full seasons, and then Richard and Tremblay in his third season.

1964-65 through 1967-68

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Henri Richard

63

94

157

12

24

36

Ralph Backstrom

69

85

154

11

16

27

Bobby Rousseau

53

95

148

26

79

105

Claude Provost

50

94

144

18

16

34

Jean Beliveau

59

84

143

33

49

82

Gilles Tremblay

35

61

111

19

13

32

John Ferguson

50

61

111

12

16

28

Claude Larose

50

56

106

6

3

9

Dick Duff

53

42

95

14

21

35

ES points shared with

Dick Duff

53

Jean Beliveau

35

Henri Richard

28

Gilles Tremblay

17

Jacques Lemaire

16

Rousseau played the point on the PP for Montreal during this time period, and was their leading PP scorer. At ES he was also among their top scorers, but not to the degree he was on the PP. He played with several linemates, Dick Duff being the most common.

1968-69 and 1969-70

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Yvan Cournoyer

47

53

100

23

28

51

Bobby Rousseau

46

50

96

7

21

28

Jacques Lemaire

46

50

96

15

12

27

Henri Richard

27

65

92

4

5

9

Jean Beliveau

43

45

88

9

31

40

Ralph Backstrom

29

48

77

3

3

6

John Ferguson

39

32

71

9

3

12

Mickey Redmond

31

37

68

5

5

10

ES points shared with

Henri Richard

25

Jacques Lemaire

19

Dick Duff

14

Yvan Cournoyer

12

J.C. Tremblay took a bigger role on the PP, reducing Rousseau's role there. Montreal had very balanced lines and roles for these seasons among their forwards and Rousseau scored as much as anyone.

1971-72 through 1973-74

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Jean Ratelle

92

105

197

22

46

68

Vic Hadfield

62

88

150

43

27

70

Walt Tkaczuk

56

93

149

10

22

32

Bill Fairbairn

50

95

145

11

15

26

Pete Stemkowski

53

88

141

5

8

13

Brad Park

41

96

137

16

45

61

Rod Gilbert

39

73

112

22

25

47

Bruce MacGregor

43

54

97

2

3

5

Ted Irvine

46

49

95

3

3

6

Rod Seiling

18

74

92

1

14

15

Steve Vickers

57

35

92

7

10

17

Bobby Rousseau

26

54

80

12

59

71

ES points shared with

Bruce MacGregor

17

Ted Irvine

16

Jean Ratelle

11

Rod Gilbert

10

Brad Park

10

Dale Rolfe

10

Vic Hadfield

9

Bill Fairbairn

7

Rousseau was a total PP specialist in New York, leading the Rangers in PP points for his time there and finishing 12th in ES points. He played with many diffferent players at ES in a limited role, and manned the blueline with Brad Park on the PP.

Awesome breakdown, overpass. My long-held opinion of Rousseau is that he has always been a legit ATD scoringliner in terms of what he brought to the ice. It's nice to see him finally get a shot in that role here. I think he's actually a quite good scoringline "glue guy" (or complementary player) so long as his softness is not an issue, which I don't think it is on a line with Lindsay and Kennedy.

There was some discussion of Bobby Rousseau earlier, and the effect of linemates and PP/ES scoring on his numbers. I have the actual numbers.

1961-62 through 1963-64

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Henri Richard

52

99

151

6

17

23

Ralph Backstrom

54

69

123

3

3

6

Jean Beliveau

36

86

122

28

36

64

Claude Provost

56

61

117

9

15

24

Bobby Rousseau

55

57

112

5

14

19

Gilles Tremblay

61

46

107

16

16

32

Bill Hicke

42

50

92

6

12

18

Bernie Geoffrion

48

42

90

18

29

47

ES points shared with

Jean Beliveau

40

Gilles Tremblay

35

Henri Richard

32

Rousseau was a complementary top line player during these three seasons, scoring primarily at ES and receiving little PP time. Beliveau and Tremblay were his primary linemates in his first two full seasons, and then Richard and Tremblay in his third season.

1964-65 through 1967-68

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Henri Richard

63

94

157

12

24

36

Ralph Backstrom

69

85

154

11

16

27

Bobby Rousseau

53

95

148

26

79

105

Claude Provost

50

94

144

18

16

34

Jean Beliveau

59

84

143

33

49

82

Gilles Tremblay

35

61

111

19

13

32

John Ferguson

50

61

111

12

16

28

Claude Larose

50

56

106

6

3

9

Dick Duff

53

42

95

14

21

35

ES points shared with

Dick Duff

53

Jean Beliveau

35

Henri Richard

28

Gilles Tremblay

17

Jacques Lemaire

16

Rousseau played the point on the PP for Montreal during this time period, and was their leading PP scorer. At ES he was also among their top scorers, but not to the degree he was on the PP. He played with several linemates, Dick Duff being the most common.

1968-69 and 1969-70

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Yvan Cournoyer

47

53

100

23

28

51

Bobby Rousseau

46

50

96

7

21

28

Jacques Lemaire

46

50

96

15

12

27

Henri Richard

27

65

92

4

5

9

Jean Beliveau

43

45

88

9

31

40

Ralph Backstrom

29

48

77

3

3

6

John Ferguson

39

32

71

9

3

12

Mickey Redmond

31

37

68

5

5

10

ES points shared with

Henri Richard

25

Jacques Lemaire

19

Dick Duff

14

Yvan Cournoyer

12

J.C. Tremblay took a bigger role on the PP, reducing Rousseau's role there. Montreal had very balanced lines and roles for these seasons among their forwards and Rousseau scored as much as anyone.

1971-72 through 1973-74

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Jean Ratelle

92

105

197

22

46

68

Vic Hadfield

62

88

150

43

27

70

Walt Tkaczuk

56

93

149

10

22

32

Bill Fairbairn

50

95

145

11

15

26

Pete Stemkowski

53

88

141

5

8

13

Brad Park

41

96

137

16

45

61

Rod Gilbert

39

73

112

22

25

47

Bruce MacGregor

43

54

97

2

3

5

Ted Irvine

46

49

95

3

3

6

Rod Seiling

18

74

92

1

14

15

Steve Vickers

57

35

92

7

10

17

Bobby Rousseau

26

54

80

12

59

71

ES points shared with

Bruce MacGregor

17

Ted Irvine

16

Jean Ratelle

11

Rod Gilbert

10

Brad Park

10

Dale Rolfe

10

Vic Hadfield

9

Bill Fairbairn

7

Rousseau was a total PP specialist in New York, leading the Rangers in PP points for his time there and finishing 12th in ES points. He played with many diffferent players at ES in a limited role, and manned the blueline with Brad Park on the PP.

Excellent work Overpass, thank you for that breakdown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator

Awesome breakdown, overpass. My long-held opinion of Rousseau is that he has always been a legit ATD scoringliner in terms of what he brought to the ice. It's nice to see him finally get a shot in that role here. I think he's actually a quite good scoringline "glue guy" (or complementary player) so long as his softness is not an issue, which I don't think it is on a line with Lindsay and Kennedy.

Agreed, I think GM's just become robotic in thinking which line a player can play on due to past draft positions and placements.

That was my mindset going in, I wanted stray away from the traditional way things are done.

While waiting for my last pick [Ralph Backstrom], I was going down my lists and trying to figure out who I wanted, who was available and who would probably get picked over the next round or so.....seems like a lot of my favorites are getting snagged.

- Bob Goldham
Didn't know anything about him but researching him quickly made me interested. Not only was his reputation deserved, he was also a natural right handed shot. Sturm was right, he was the BDA.

- Ed Westfall
One of the unheralded from the Bruins late 60's/early 70's teams. Not only was he a great defensive forward but he was also a very good special teams player with almost as many SH goals as he has PP goals.....hated it when the Bruins lost him to the Islanders, (where he became captain), in the expansion draft.

- Rob Ramage
I am intrigued about him. I like him as a player but during his prime he was on some sad sack teams. Always wondered what would've happened if he were on some of the better teams of the era during his prime, although he was a strong contributor on the Flames SC team.

- Ted Green
Terrible Teddy actually became a better defenseman after his head got caved in.....not being as rambunctious and impetuous as before he ended up playing better positionally. Probably jumped to the WHA at the best time possible for him.

- Jimmy Watson
He's a Watson, what more can you say? Major blue line stalwart for the Flyers SC years.

- Rick Tocchet
Was going to be my next pick if he somehow survived til then.....my kind of player.

- Dino Ciccarelli
A major league dick but in this format he would be a great 2nd line winger.

also
- Peter Bondra...a pure sniper.....and it's kind of funny, the current Bruins have a player that like Bondra's post lockout numbers, if averaged out would be very similar, as to this past lockout.

I was looking at Tocchet and Dino. Decided that Dino was far and away better at basically everything except fighting.

- Ted Green
Terrible Teddy actually became a better defenseman after his head got caved in.....not being as rambunctious and impetuous as before he ended up playing better positionally. Probably jumped to the WHA at the best time possible for him.

His best years were definitely before his injury. All of his best voting results were before, and all of his best scoring seasons were before as well.

Green's offensive game is very, very under-rated. 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring among defensemen. Both 2nds came before Orr exploded, and the 3rd was behind Orr.

Either he was very poor defensively or his reputation severely reduced his voting results.

His best years were definitely before his injury. All of his best voting results were before, and all of his best scoring seasons were before as well.

Green's offensive game is very, very under-rated. 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring among defensemen. Both 2nds came before Orr exploded, and the 3rd was behind Orr.

Either he was very poor defensively or his reputation severely reduced his voting results.

No he was a good player before but tended to drop his gloves easily, (although I do like this in a player actually). Because of the plate in his head and the risk of injury he adapted to being more of a positional player, not taking as many chances or getting too rowdy, (he had only 4 fights after his injury).

He was a wee tad more cautious and took care of things in his own end more than he had before, things that didn't show up in the box scores or stat sheets.....and as a defenseman that's not such a bad thing, eh?

No he was a good player before but tended to drop his gloves easily, (although I do like this in a player actually). Because of the plate in his head and the risk of injury he adapted to being more of a positional player, not taking as many chances or getting too rowdy, (he had only 4 fights after his injury).

He was a wee tad more cautious and took care of things in his own end more than he had before, things that didn't show up in the box scores or stat sheets.....and as a defenseman that's not such a bad thing, eh?

Nothing wrong with dropping your gloves. He was a much better offensive player before the injury, and he was also much more intimidating. Maybe he was a steadier defensively after the injury, but that doesn't mitigate the loss of offense and intimidation.

He was one of the best NHL defensemen for the 5 years before the injury. He played one decent season after the injury, and then he went to become a good, but not elite, defenseman in the WHA. Basically, Green's ATD resume was built from 1965-69. The rest is just "longevity", since he doesn't really add much to that previous resume.

Nothing wrong with dropping your gloves. He was a much better offensive player before the injury, and he was also much more intimidating. Maybe he was a steadier defensively after the injury, but that doesn't mitigate the loss of offense and intimidation.

He was one of the best NHL defensemen for the 5 years before the injury. He played one decent season after the injury, and then he went to become a good, but not elite, defenseman in the WHA. Basically, Green's ATD resume was built from 1965-69. The rest is just "longevity", since he doesn't really add much to that previous resume.

Oh I don't doubt the impact he had, let's just say he became a more well-rounded player and keep it at that. Believe me, you're talking to a fan of his.

Boyo do I remember those front-page newspaper headlines and photos though....created another woulda, coulda, shoulda scenario.

His best years were definitely before his injury. All of his best voting results were before, and all of his best scoring seasons were before as well.

Green's offensive game is very, very under-rated. 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring among defensemen. Both 2nds came before Orr exploded, and the 3rd was behind Orr.

Either he was very poor defensively or his reputation severely reduced his voting results.

The 2nd in '68 may be before Orr became WTF good, but Orr was by far the best d-man in the league and Green was his partner. '65, I don't know. He did fall behind superior defensive defensemen like Horton, Laperriere, Brewer and Howell. So we can safely say he wasn't in their league defensively.

But the original comment was that he became a high end defensive defenceman latter in his career, which I would stand beside.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.

The 2nd in '68 may be before Orr became WTF good, but Orr was by far the best d-man in the league and Green was his partner. '65, I don't know. He did fall behind superior defensive defensemen like Horton, Laperriere, Brewer and Howell. So we can safely say he wasn't in their league defensively.

I didn't say Green was better than Orr in 1968, I said he outscored him.

As far as falling behind those guys defensively, I agree. However, how does he rank with them as an overall defenseman?

Quote:

But the original comment was that he became a high end defensive defenceman latter in his career, which I would stand beside.

The original comment said nothing about defensive play - it said he was "a better defenseman" before the injury.

Awesome breakdown, overpass. My long-held opinion of Rousseau is that he has always been a legit ATD scoringliner in terms of what he brought to the ice. It's nice to see him finally get a shot in that role here. I think he's actually a quite good scoringline "glue guy" (or complementary player) so long as his softness is not an issue, which I don't think it is on a line with Lindsay and Kennedy.

I need to be more sold on Rousseau's defensive ability before thinking of him as a good glue guy, rather than a merely passable one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markrander87

Agreed, I think GM's just become robotic in thinking which line a player can play on due to past draft positions and placements.

That was my mindset going in, I wanted stray away from the traditional way things are done.

yeah, there are definitely guys pigeonholed into being third liners who are better offensively than a lot of the grinders often found on scoring lines in this thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobnobs

I was looking at Tocchet and Dino. Decided that Dino was far and away better at basically everything except fighting.

Tocchet was much better in the corners too. Dino wasn't that much of a corners guy, more of a guy who would do whatever it takes in front of the net. Dino is much better offensively though.

Actually, I'm pretty sure HR is wrong. I've been trying to figure it out, and based on the game action pictures I could find, Goldham is right-handed. If he's left-handed, so is Gordie Howe.... and Red Kelly is right-handed... and Terry Sawchuk wore his glove on right hand.

Edit:

Here's an example....

Goalie is Sawchuk, who's wearing the glove on the correct hand, so we know the picture isn't reversed.

#2 Goldham is right-handed in the picture.

#11 is a guy we all know is left-handed, and #19 is a guy we all know is right-handed. They are both undrafted, so PM me if you want to know who they are.

I think Roenick is a good pick here, and has been underrated for a while in the ATD. The bolded above is pretty much the reason some people have underrated him. He had a wierd fall-off in his play around the time of the lockout, but recovered his game and for a few years there in Phoenix and Philly was just as good as he'd ever been in Chicago, but it doesn't look that way if you just look at his raw points because his late-peak resurgence occured during the dead puck era, and nobody paid attention to the Coyotes at the time. I think JR is on the Keats/Dunderdale level of scoringline centers. Definitely a better all-around player than guys like Federko and Nieuwendyk who always get taken before him.

Seems like Rousseau and Beliveau thought offense-first when they were linemates (which makes sense), but both were capable of playing well defensively when the situation warranted it.

The Cournoyer one is interesting - I never knew that Rousseau was a speedster before, and it looks like he was used against Cournoyer because he was the only guy they had fast enough to keep up.

Rousseau seems like a very versatile player who could think offense or defense first depending on what the coach asked. Too bad he was so small. The "he had freakishly large wrists, which gave him a really hard shot" thing is interesting and would explain why he often played point on the powerplay.

There was some discussion of Bobby Rousseau earlier, and the effect of linemates and PP/ES scoring on his numbers. I have the actual numbers.

1961-62 through 1963-64

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Games Played

ESPPG

Henri Richard

52

99

151

6

17

23

187

.807

Ralph Backstrom

54

69

123

3

3

6

206

.597

Jean Beliveau

36

86

122

28

36

64

180

.678

Claude Provost

56

61

117

9

15

24

205

.570

Bobby Rousseau

55

57

112

5

14

19

202

.55

Gilles Tremblay

61

46

107

16

16

32

191

.56

Bill Hicke

42

50

92

6

12

18

188

.489

Bernie Geoffrion

48

42

90

18

29

47

168

.535

ES points shared with

Jean Beliveau

40

Gilles Tremblay

35

Henri Richard

32

Rousseau was a complementary top line player during these three seasons, scoring primarily at ES and receiving little PP time. Beliveau and Tremblay were his primary linemates in his first two full seasons, and then Richard and Tremblay in his third season.

1964-65 through 1967-68

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Games Played

ESPPG

Henri Richard

63

94

157

12

24

36

234

.671

Ralph Backstrom

69

85

154

11

16

27

276

.558

Bobby Rousseau

53

95

148

26

79

105

278

.532

Claude Provost

50

94

144

18

16

34

277

.520

Jean Beliveau

59

84

143

33

49

82

237

.603

Gilles Tremblay

35

61

111

19

13

32

229

.485

John Ferguson

50

61

111

12

16

28

262

.424

Claude Larose

50

56

106

6

3

9

243

.382

Dick Duff

53

42

95

14

21

35

249

ES points shared with

Dick Duff

53

Jean Beliveau

35

Henri Richard

28

Gilles Tremblay

17

Jacques Lemaire

16

Rousseau played the point on the PP for Montreal during this time period, and was their leading PP scorer. At ES he was also among their top scorers, but not to the degree he was on the PP. He played with several linemates, Dick Duff being the most common.

1968-69 and 1969-70

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Games Played

ESPPG

Yvan Cournoyer

47

53

100

23

28

51

148

.676

Bobby Rousseau

46

50

96

7

21

28

148

.648

Jacques Lemaire

46

50

96

15

12

27

144

.667

Henri Richard

27

65

92

4

5

9

126

.730

Jean Beliveau

43

45

88

9

31

40

132

.667

Ralph Backstrom

29

48

77

3

3

6

144

.535

John Ferguson

39

32

71

9

3

12

119

.60

Mickey Redmond

31

37

68

5

5

10

140

.486

ES points shared with

Henri Richard

25

Jacques Lemaire

19

Dick Duff

14

Yvan Cournoyer

12

J.C. Tremblay took a bigger role on the PP, reducing Rousseau's role there. Montreal had very balanced lines and roles for these seasons among their forwards and Rousseau scored as much as anyone.

1971-72 through 1973-74

Player

ESG

ESA

ESP

PPG

PPA

PPP

Games Played

ESPPG

Jean Ratelle

92

105

197

22

46

68

209

.943

Vic Hadfield

62

88

150

43

27

70

218

.689

Walt Tkaczuk

56

93

149

10

22

32

223

.668

Bill Fairbairn

50

95

145

11

15

26

234

.620

Pete Stemkowski

53

88

141

5

8

13

215

.656

Brad Park

41

96

137

16

45

61

205

.668

Rod Gilbert

39

73

112

22

25

47

224

.500

Bruce MacGregor

43

54

97

2

3

5

193

.502

Ted Irvine

46

49

95

3

3

6

206

.461

Rod Seiling

18

74

92

1

14

15

218

.422

Steve Vickers

57

35

92

7

10

17

136

.676

Bobby Rousseau

26

54

80

12

59

71

228

.351

ES points shared with

Bruce MacGregor

17

Ted Irvine

16

Jean Ratelle

11

Rod Gilbert

10

Brad Park

10

Dale Rolfe

10

Vic Hadfield

9

Bill Fairbairn

7

Rousseau was a total PP specialist in New York, leading the Rangers in PP points for his time there and finishing 12th in ES points. He played with many different players at ES in a limited role, and manned the blueline with Brad Park on the PP.

Great work here overpass. But to get a more accurate picture, I've added a column of games played in each table to put everything in perspective.