Not quite to your brief of the older getting the better of the younger, but you could look at the broadside Cruel Lizzie Vickers (young housekeeper beats elderly employer to death) that Paul Slade has up on his Gallows Project site:

I presume copyright with Kipper issue would arise only if you started making megabucks out of his songs. I've chatted to him a couple of times and mentioned we sing some of his songs at clubs and he hasn't immediately handed me a bill. You might have fewer copyright issues with Foxen's own Drinking Beer although it's more a man-woman song than an different ages song

Brilliant reference, Paul, but the old man (me) would like to come out on top (pun intended - well, some of the time).

Sanjay - yes indeed - BUT that is propaganda for the young side, not me!

Mr Throat Ailment - I'll get you for that! I am NOT.

No, Paul, (a) she is very pretty and (b) kids are NOT going to happen. Wind-up merchant!

John - have you the worms to "Yes John" please?

CS - Own teeth a bad issue. We have an argument going on about dentists!

SURELY there must be a folk song or even contemporary acoustic song in which the old man turns out to be covertly virile and lured the young girl on the promise of his dysfunctionality but the size of his wallet - and both turned out to be lies. It could be a Zvengali type thing, (or like the Engineer Song but a bit less crude please).

SURELY there are folk song in which the innocent young lady believing in the sacrament of souls finds to her horror that the skills of a roue (how do you do an acute accent on here) like James the First (or Henry VII - before he had syphilis) take her to a darker but more physical place which to her horror (or pleasure, either is good) she likes. Maybe something from Filk (vampires - ooh or midnight possessions - and all that shit).

Any resemblance of matters herein described to any real persons or events are purely coincidental and all liability is excluded (grin).

I wanna drive a bright red sports car with a pretty young blond for a date I wanna have a mid life crisis

You've left it a bit too late You coulda had a crisis at Forty or even at Fifty Five If you'd wanted a mid life crisis You should have done it while you're still alive

I want a pick up truck with monster wheels I want to be stacked up with sex appeal I want tatoos on my arms and chest A Harley and a black leather vest I want to let my hair grow long I want to get to Nashville with this song I want a Cowboy hat and belt and boots I want a hand tailored white silk suit

I wanna have a mid life crisis but if the truth be told

You can't have a mid life crisis Darling You're too old

I wanna drive a bright red sports car with a pretty young blond for a date I wanna have a mid life crisis

You've left it a bit too late You coulda had a crisis at Forty or even at Fifty Five If you'd wanted a mid life crisis You should have done it while you're still alive

I wanna drive a bright red sports car with a pretty young blond for a date

Spoken: Enough about the blond, get your saggy butt off of that couch and take out the garbage.

Spoken:

Ok. Ok. But how about a sports car? What do you think about an Aston Martin?

... there's one thing I still do very well... ...Although my hair is turning grey, I still believe it when I say....

[She:]: Well, what do you say?

[He:] It's never too late to have a fling For autumn is just as nice as spring And it's never too late to fall in love.

It's never too late to whisper words Concerning the ways of bees and birds And its...

If they say I'm too old for you Then you just tell them, "Why sir, One never drinks the wine that's new The old wine tastes much nicer!"

It's never too late to flirt and spoon A fiddle that's old is more in tune And it's...

It's never too late to bill and coo At any age one and one make two, And it's...

The modern artists of today May get the picture faster, But when it comes to _skill_, I say, You can't beat an old master!

It's never too late to wink an eye I'll do it until the day I die And it's never...

It's never too late to flirt and spopn December is quite as nice as June And it's...

Whack-a-doo! (3) and Vo-de-o! (3) at various points in the chorus, done by the girl.

---- Sandy Wilson, _The Boy Friend_

It's not folk, and it'll have to *made* into a duet, but is that the sort of thing you are looking for? You didn't say to start with that the man had to "win"... All the UK listers here will have the right words in the right order and the music for this...

@Bert: Please, I too would like words/music/record too. (Do you have it in 78 rpm form? They make these for individuals in little booths, or did when last I went out.)

@Richard Bridge: (a) won't sentimentality - enduring love regardless of years passing - do quite as well? e.g. "When you were sweet sixteen" could be adapted and divided up between male and female to work quite well...

(b) there was in the 1950s a record with a red cover of "The Boy Friend" and Messrs Samuel French publish the score, still: that I do know. For more than that, I would say ask Mr Jim Dixon of this forum, who has solved two such problems/questions for me in minutes over the last two days, but may not be looking at this thread. That song and dance were my one and only Highland Fling, my sole triumph on the boards in the 1980s, and used to bring the house down, so I can recommend it as a show-stopper.

Just Like the Ivy is a sentimental song about an old man worrying about his grand-daughter abandoning him for a young lover.

With the help of a blonde wig, no doubt the roles could be reversed with, as they say, hilarious results!

There's an MP3 piano accompaniment available for 99p at your accompanist.com, but the YouTube versions seem just to have the chorus and are sung very slowly.

JUST LIKE THE IVY

Granddad sat at evenfall 'Neath the dear old garden wall Where the ivy was clinging all around And a maiden young and fair With blue eyes and golden hair Was nestling there beside him on the ground "Some day you'll be leaving me For a sweetheart," the old man sighed "Some day be forgetting me" But with a smile the maid replied

Chorus: 'Just watch the ivy on that old garden wall Clinging so tightly, what e'er may befall As you grow older I'll be constant and true And just like the ivy, I'll cling to you.'

"When the ivy, years ago," Said the maiden, "Began to grow Then that wall supported it with pride Now the old wall's in decay And is crumbling fast away The ivy clings more tightly to it's side Loving you have ever been You have cared for me day by day Loving I shall ever be And always by your side I'll stay"

Chorus:

Written and composed by A.J. Mills & Harry Castling Performed by Marie Kendall (1873-1964)

Richard: Here is Mr Kipper's YES, SIR, YES as Foxen perform it. And if you manage to drag yourself over to Haverfolk as you have been threatening to do for months you can hear us perform it. In the meantime...

[Him:] On yonder hill, there stands a creature. Who she is I do not know. I'll go court her for her beauty [booty]. She must answer yes or no. [Her:] Oh! Yes, John, yes, John, yes, John, yes!

[Him:] Madam, I don't take your meaning. Pray forgive me if I'm slow. Do you mean that you mean yes or Do you mean yes you mean no? [Her:] Oh! Yes, John, yes, John, I mean yes!

[Him:] Now madam, you must mind your manners If you want to hug and squeeze. That's no good just saying, "Yes." You have to learn to say "Yes, please." [Her:] Oh! Yes, John, yes, John, yes, please, John!

[Him:] But madam, I have got a headache. How that hurts I cannot say. Would it matter if I went? [Her:] Oh! Yes, John, yes, John, yes, it would. [Both:] So we lay all night together Till the crows had cocked twice o'er. [Her:] Then I turned again towards him. [Him:] Surely she cannot want more? [Her:] Oh yes, John, yes, John, yes, I can.

[Him:] Madam, there is one more question, If you do not think it rude: Did you ever sleep more sweeter? Was you ever better served? [Her:] Oh! Yes, John, yes, John, a thousand times, yes.

Very good - Sugden was a genius, but I don't REALLY want to be admitting that I was only bettered as a lover by thousands or more!

Dammit, it looks as if I'm going to have to write a fakesong like Bert!

Flash of inspiration - there is a traditional song - sort of finishes with the song of the birds in the trees and the song that they sang was "She's Easy to Please" - or does that come out of the middle of the Bonny Black Hare?

"FIVE NIGHTS DRUNK" doesn't specify ages, but describes a possible outcome when young girls marry old men (especially those who drink)! In fact, any of the husband-wife dialogue songs can work for a May-December duo, e.g., "THERE'S A HOLE IN THE BUCKET." Or how about a trio? One Scots song for a young woman + an older man + a younger man is "COME UNDER MY PLAIDIE." Has a lot of range, but with competent singers it can be fun. And the old guy gets the girl!

If we're talking about "Don't stand so close to me" from The Police, I wouldn't say the girl is a patsy, exactly. It would appear to be the teacher who's begging the title. (Also, it's rather specific about "This girl" being "half his age".)

Hm, well not about age difference, but still: How about "BABY IT'S COLD OUTSIDE", with the old man singing the wolf part, and the young woman the mouse part?

Always assumed this is a young man talking to a young wife about an old husband - could be wishful thinking! Jim Carroll

WAD YE DO THAT? From Burns' Merry Muses of Caledonia

Gudewife, when your gudeman's frae hame Might I but be sae bauld, As come to your bed-chamber, When winter nights are cauld; As come to your bed-chamber, When nights are cauld and wat And lie in your gudeman's stead. Wad ye do that?

Young man, an ye should be so kind. When our gudeman's frae hame, As come to my bed-chamber, Where I am laid my lane; And lie in our gudeman's stead_ I will tell you what, He f-s me five times ilka night, Wad ye do that?

"that is fucking brilliant!" Agree absolutely; along with the unbowdlerised JOHN ANDERSON MY JO, probably the most beautiful bawdy song in the repertoire. 'Muses' gives John Anderson as the tune - both songs are to be found on the extremely rare MacColl 'Merry Muses of Caledonia' album issued by 'Dionysus Records' in the 60s, a company set up by Ken Goldstein exclusively to deal with such 'sensitive' material - "only to be sold to serious students" If you have any trouble, pm me Jim Carroll

As I walked out one May morning One May morning so early I overtook a handsome maid Just as the sun was rising With my rue dum day Fol the diddle dol Fol the dol th diddle dum the day

Her shoes were bright Her stockings white Her buckles shone like silver She had a black and roving eye And her hair hung down her shoulder With my rue dum day Fol the diddle dol Fol the dol th diddle dum the day

How old are you? My fair pretty maid How old are you my honey She answered me right cheerfully I'm seventeen come Sunday With my rue dum day Fol the diddle dol Fol the dol th diddle dum the day

I went down to her mammy's house The moon was shining clearly I sang beneath her window pane Your soldier loves you dearly With my rue dum day Fol the diddle dol Fol the dol th diddle dum the day

Oh solider won't you marry me? For now's your time or never For if you do not marry me My heart is broke forever With my rue dum day Fol the diddle dol Fol the dol th diddle dum the day

And now she is the soldier's wife And sails across the brine-o The drum and fife is her delight And a merry man in mine, Oh With my rue dum day Fol the diddle dol Fol the dol th diddle dum the day

There's also Blue Bleezing Blind Drunk...

I'll go and I'll get blue bleezing blind drunk Just to give Mickey a warning And just for to spite I will stay out all night And come rolling home drunk in the morning

Now friends, I have a sad story A very sad story to tell I married a man for his money And he's worse than the devil himself

For when Mickey comes home in the evening He batters me all black and blue He knocks me about from the kitchen From the bedroom right through to the room

For of whiskey I ne'er was a lover But what can a poor woman do I'll go and I'll drown all my sorrows But I wish I could drown Mickey too

My Husband's Got No Courage In Him...

As I walked out one May morning To view the fields and the leaves a-springing I saw two maidens standing by And one of them her hands was wringing

Chorus (after each verse): O dear o, o dear o My husband's got no courage in him O dear o All sort of vittles I did provide All sorts of meats that's fitting for him With oyster pie and rhubarb too But nothing will put courage in him

My husband can dance and caper and sing And do anything that is fitting for him But he cannot do the thing I want Because he has no courage in him

My husband's admired wherever he goes And everyone looks well upon him With his handsome features and well-shaped leg But still he's got no courage in him

Every night when I goes to bed I lie and throw my leg right o'er him And my hand I clap between his thighs But I can't put any courage in him

Seven long years I've made his bed And every night I've lain beside him And this morning I rose with my maidenhead For still he's got no courage in him

I wish my husband he was dead And in the/his grave I'd quickly lay him And then I'd try another one That's got a little courage in him

***

I was kind of confused from your above comments what kind of song you want...

Songs where the older man has the upper hand or is shown in a good light?

Bob Davenport sings a Geordie version of the song that RoyH suggests. The young wife is trying to wheedle the old husband around, but he is bitter, probably because she has done something unforgivable. He only gets about 6 words at the end of each verse, usually ending: "....., you bitch!"

Yes, cogent questions. There are many many songs in which the old man is incapable or deceived.

If we get a set sorted, we'd probably start with a couple of those. We might then swing into a modern lovey-dovey - then go to the horrifying "Poison and Wine" - it sounds so sweet that it takes you the third listen to realise it's about physical abuse followeed by sex - "Your hands can bruise, your hands can heal"

Then I wanted to go to my vindication, that's what is hard to find. There are some nice race music (Slow Hand)and blues songs (Roll me slow) but there is some guitar part learning to transpose those off piano.

Good suggestions of all kinds gratefully received, but particularly songs in which the old man turns out to be the devil with a large battery!

This topic touches on the subject of another recent thread - non-PC songs. Back in the late 80s there was a move by some feminists to expunge so-called 'anti-women' songs from the repertoire; I saw on several occasions, singers shouted off the platform when they sang songs like 'THE LARK IN THE MORNING', 'THE GENTLEMAN SOLDIER', 'THE DOCKYARD GATE' etc.: the 'love 'em and leave 'em' or 'aren't women fickle and conniving' genres. This led to the disappearance of many songs from the club repertoires, certainly in some of the ones I frequented. As a strong supporter of feminism I can see the sentiment behind this, (nobody wants to sit quietly while their gender is being slagged off) but as a lover of folk song (and much of the literature and theatre which is based on similar themes) I find this reactionary and destructive and have always wondered if there was not a better way to handle it. Wonder if anybody had any similar experiences Jim Carroll

There was an old man in the wood, as you shall plainly see sir, He vowed he'd do more work in a day than his wife would do in three sir, "If that be so," the old wife said, "and this you will allow sir While I go drive the plough today and you shall milk the cow sir."

"But you must watch the speckled hen less she should lay away sir And you must watch that spool of yarn that I spun yesterday sir." The old wife took the stick in hand and went to drive the plough sir, The old man took the pail in hand and went to milk the cow sir.

But Tiny winced and fussed about and Tiny flipped her tail sir And Tiny gave the man a kick that milk ran from the pail sir. "Oh Tiny pretty Tiny dear, my pretty cow stand still, ah If I milk you another day it's sore against my will, ah."

He went to feed the sow and pigs, which were within the sty sir, He knocked his head agin the durn which made the blood to fly sir. He went to watch the speckled hen less she should lay away sir, He clean forgot the spool of yarn his wife spun yesterday sir.

He went within to get a stick, to give the pig her hire sir, The pig ran in between his legs and tipped him in the mire sir. And as he looked at cow and pig, he said, "I do agree sir, If my wife never works again, she'll not be blamed by me sir."

or The Capable Wife

There was an old man who lived in the wood As you will plainly see; He thought he could do more work in a day Than his wife could do in three.

"With all my heart," the old dame said, "If you will me allow: You shall stay at home today And I will hold the plough."

"And mind you milk the tiny cow Lest she should go dry, And mind you feed the little pigs That are within the sty."

"And mind you watch the speckled hen Lest she should stray away, And don't forget the spool of yarn That I spin every day."

The old wife took her stick in her hand And went to hold the plough; The old man took the pail in his hand And he went to milk the cow.

But Tiny she flinched and Tiny she squinched, And Tiny she cocked up her nose. And Tiny she gave him a kick in the shin Till the blood ran down his toes.

And then he went to feed the pigs That were within the sty He knocked his head against the shed And it made the blood to fly.

And then he watched the speckled hen Lest she should stray away, But he quite forgot the spool of yarn, That his wife spun every day.

And when his wife came home that night He said he could plainly see She could do more work in a day Than he could do in three.

The song Roy H is referring to is 'MY GOOD OLD MAN', which was sung by, amongst others, Jack Elliot of Birtley and Walter Pardon (collected by Jim Carroll himself!). It's Roud 240, appeared in Purslow's 'The Wanton Seed', and is in the Digitrad here.

It's also the very same song as the Cajun duet between Joe and Cleoma Falcon that beeliner referred to above, and which you can listen to here: 'Le vieux soulard et sa femme'.

Thanks for that Brian; in fact we only got couple of verses from Walter (he called it 'Best Old Wife in the World'). We were never sure if that was because that was all he knew or because of his reluctance to sings songs he didn't count as "folk" "What do you want those bloomin' old things for?". Nice to have a full text. I can't see 'Who Will We Have To The Wedding' (aka Mountaineer's Courtship) here Jim Carroll

RH- "MY GOOD OLD MAN" has been widely recorded. Burl Ives, Richard Dyer-Bennett, Joan Baez (among others). Sharp collected it in 1918, considering it an "English Folk Song from the Southern Appalachians".

Another common American one dealing with a young woman and an old man(which I always thought had English antecedents, is "Old Shoes On and his Leggins"

She don't like her eggs all runny She thinks crossin' her legs is funny She looks down her nose at money She gets it on like the Easter Bunny She's my baby I'm her honey I'm never gonna let her go

He ain't got laid in a month of Sundays I caught him once and he was sniffin' my undies He ain't too sharp but he gets things done Drinks his beer like it's oxygen He's my baby And I'm his honey Never gonna let him go

In spite of ourselves We'll end up a'sittin' on a rainbow Against all odds Honey, we're the big door prize We're gonna spite our noses Right off of our faces There won't be nothin' but big old hearts Dancin' in our eyes.

She thinks all my jokes are corny Convict movies make her horny She likes ketchup on her scrambled eggs Swears like a sailor when shaves her legs She takes a lickin' And keeps on tickin' I'm never gonna let her go.

He's got more balls than a big brass monkey He's a wacked out werido and a lovebug junkie Sly as a fox and crazy as a loon Payday comes and he's howlin' at the moon He's my baby I don't mean maybe Never gonna let him go

In spite of ourselves We'll end up a'sittin' on a rainbow Against all odds Honey, we're the big door prize We're gonna spite our noses Right off of our faces There won't be nothin' but big old hearts Dancin' in our eyes. There won't be nothin' but big old hearts Dancin' in our eyes.

Who are you STM? I have deliberately not named the young lady yet. She has a fairly powerful voice, rock tinged rather than pretty-pretty or down the nose folk (my tendency), with both lower and upper registers available. You will not have seen her at Maidstone sings, she is from north of Dartford.

We are looking a present for the earlier versions of "In love with a man nearly twice my age", but are mostly only finding the Shabba Ranks version. We think the song may date from the 20s or 30s. We are also toying with the idea of folkifying the Hot Chocolate hit "I believe in miracles".

And will 'catters please note if meeting us out that the preferred method address does not start "Oh is this one of your young ladies" and proceed to "I mean one of your daughters"? I can grin conceitedly at the latter - but it rings strangely after the former. What do such people think I might be doing with my daughters?