Anyone follow this story? I do feel bad for these folks, having to bear increases to their health insurance and pension to bring it to with in $100 less than non-state workers. How could you not feel for them?

See how it works in the private sector, where I work, if I do a good job they acknowledge it with a raise and a bigger bonus (depending on the performance of the company and division). In the last 3 years we have had to endure pay freezes, lower bonuses and higher health care insurance burdens. I can see why they are pissed. Why shouldn't they contribute at a below average rate to their health insurance and pensions when we could just be taxed for the money.

Exactly why I am looking for a job in the public sector. Pull me up to the cow, I want a teet. I'll just let you fuckers pay for me and when you try to take it away I will protest. If you can't beat them, join them, right?

I am not sure of the exact components & how it compares to Wisky, but a similar bill is in play in Ohio. Given the budget challneges I expect a similar set of changes to sweep every GOP controlled state gov't.

Nah seriously. I know your DoD stories and I'll say that i agree & will never work in a union setting ever again if I can possibly help it. But do you think there is any room at all for them in any role at all anymore? I mean, the victian guilded age reallly did suck for most people before the progressive era. Is that all so much ancient history?

Until the late 1950s, there was no unionization of public-sector employees. But New York City Mayor Robert Wagner, in order to bribe city workers for their votes, allowed them to unionize. President JFK made it legal for federal workers to unionize. Ever since, here’s how it works: public officials pass legislation to enhance union power and worker benefits; in return, said public officials get money from unions and votes from workers to get re-elected. At the local, state and federal levels.

Now, voters can vote however the hell they please, but it’s OUR MONEY that’s being donated to certain union-favored candidates. Here’s how THAT works: we pay the wages of public-sector employees with our taxes, then the union takes “dues” from the paychecks and donates it to whomever (usually Democrats) they wish.

Who was it that said “There is something rotten in the state of Denmark”?

As for pensions and benefits, I’ve been in the private sector ever since leaving the Army, and I’ve never received any defined-benefit-type “pension” from any employer, ever. So why should I be paying for the pensions of public employees? Let them contribute to their OWN pensions or 401(k)s, just like I’ve done my whole adult life.

And the argument that public-sector employees don’t make as much as their private-sector counterparts and thus deserve an elite pension system is just hogwash, as numerous surveys have recently shown. They make just as much, if not more.

I recall the day a few years ago when my public school teacher bride came home one day all put out because the school board was planning to begin requiring union members to contribute some small fraction (10%?) of their own health insurance premiums out of their pay (after 25 years or so of paying nothing). She was mildly shocked when she got no sympathy from me. My response was something like "you mean like the rest of the world has to do?"

The best thing I have read on the broader topic of public sector unions and how they came to be is this 2005 City Journal article linked below. They used to be illegal ...the structural flaws and dangers of having a union negotiate with a (relatively voiceless taxpayer) monopoly being apparent to people back in the day...

One of the biggest problems is that city, county and state officials get regularly rolled in negotiations with their more savvy and skilled union counterparts in negotiations. Over years, it adds up to the nightmare we're looking at now.

The National Affairs piece below that is another serious treatment of the problem, and the Economist article is from just last month, if I recall.

Nah seriously. I know your DoD stories and I'll say that i agree & will never work in a union setting ever again if I can possibly help it. But do you think there is any room at all for them in any role at all anymore? I mean, the victian guilded age reallly did suck for most people before the progressive era. Is that all so much ancient history?

They will never be gone, and contrary to my hyperbole, shouldn't be. I just want to see them weakened. Even the private trade unions are shrinking the pie with their agenda. Weak CEO's fearful of political pressure have driven the cost of labor and government through the roof. It is time for a correction.

All one has to do to find economic growth is look to areas with weak organized labor.

The mass communication available renders a good portion of what happened in the Gilded Age moot. There are no company police and most any discrimination today would be on the net faster then what.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

jerryroche wrote:Until the late 1950s, there was no unionization of public-sector employees. But New York City Mayor Robert Wagner, in order to bribe city workers for their votes, allowed them to unionize. President JFK made it legal for federal workers to unionize. Ever since, here’s how it works: public officials pass legislation to enhance union power and worker benefits; in return, said public officials get money from unions and votes from workers to get re-elected. At the local, state and federal levels.

Now, voters can vote however the hell they please, but it’s OUR MONEY that’s being donated to certain union-favored candidates. Here’s how THAT works: we pay the wages of public-sector employees with our taxes, then the union takes “dues” from the paychecks and donates it to whomever (usually Democrats) they wish.

Who was it that said “There is something rotten in the state of Denmark”?

As for pensions and benefits, I’ve been in the private sector ever since leaving the Army, and I’ve never received any defined-benefit-type “pension” from any employer, ever. So why should I be paying for the pensions of public employees? Let them contribute to their OWN pensions or 401(k)s, just like I’ve done my whole adult life.

And the argument that public-sector employees don’t make as much as their private-sector counterparts and thus deserve an elite pension system is just hogwash, as numerous surveys have recently shown. They make just as much, if not more.

About Double. There are many days I kick myself in the arse for not being able to pass out at my desk and play the game. I was just too driven coming out of college.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Both his dry Yankee wit and his frugality with words became legendary. His wife, Grace Goodhue Coolidge, recounted that a young woman sitting next to Coolidge at a dinner party confided to him she had bet she could get at least three words of conversation from him. Without looking at her he quietly retorted, "You lose."

Orenthal wrote:All one has to do to find economic growth is look to areas with weak organized labor.

This.

Speaks to a point I wanted to make the other day in another thread, but didn't get around to. JB said something like "China's economy is the envy of the world..." and I had no argument with that, or with anything else about his take.

I did want to make the point that it is the unique circumstances in both the political system and the demographics there that make it that way.

First, an authoritarian government artificially holds down the cost of labor, assuring huge profitability for their state-run enterprises. Even that wouldn't work though, if there wasn't also a virtually limitless supply of desperately poor available workers to be brought in from rural regions, to whom 50 cents an hour looks like MLB utility infielder money.

Any strong-arming unaccountable government could theoretically dictate a wage below what the market would allow, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to get people lined up at the factory gates to work for it, like China can. Surely at least their growth rate is the envy of the world because of that, if not their overall economic circumstance.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Not a single union defender, after his earlier post I figured I could lure War Admiral in to this. I think a lot who work in the private sector just have no sympathy for the whining and bitching of the public sector workers who get brought in to the reality of the private sector. Raises are not guaranteed, health insurance costs are not absorbed. Thus is life.

However, what I will say is that I don't give a shit what private companies succumb to from the pressure of unions or workers until we have to start footing the bill for it (ie. GM). If these people want to fight for benefits so high and so out of line with what the open market would pay then go for it. That is up for the company to decide what to do with. My whole issue is expecting the folks who are not working with the comfort of a cushy pension after 25 years of work to foot the bill for your benefits. They can argue about evil corporations outsourcing all they want, but if the union doesn't work with instead of against a company to get skilled labor at a fair price then tough shit if they send the jobs elsewhere, that is both their doing, not just the corporation.

Again I'm not so sure that ultimately determining if a public sector job is better than a private one is easy to do or vice versa, but one thing is certain, the public sector job has the better safety net.

Also all I can say to anyone who thinks the sector they are employed is worse off due to the rules is simply, go get a job in the other sector, I'd at least have more respect for that person.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Also all I can say to anyone who thinks the sector they are employed is worse off due to the rules is simply, go get a job in the other sector, I'd at least have more respect for that person.

Unions are most definitely not a black and white issue for me. Grew up with autoworker parents, the kind who actually showed up for work and worked hard. The union jobs allowed my family to have a modest middle-class lifestyle, which they would not have otherwise had the opportunity to do given their family situations growing up. Neither of them could have ever gone to college out of high school. And as far as I know, they never had outrageous salaries or benefits. They made maybe 40K each as recently as 2007. They are now retired and have very modest pensions; their 401Ks are decimated because those were all paid out in Ford stock.

I also saw firsthand how the unions allowed too many people to abuse the system. No reason for the union to get people their jobs back after they were caught selling drugs at work, etc. Much of the issues with the UAW, at least, was the overtime policies. Tons of people making fat $$$ by working overtime because the union effectively blocked the hiring of new workers.

I do have a problem with the Wal-Martization of wages and the destruction of organized labor because it is forcing too many people to rely on college education if they want any sort of middle-class lifestyle. I work in higher education and I see far too many students in college who do not have the aptitude for it, simply because you have to have a bachelor's degree for any meaningful employment these days. IMO, this is a huge reason why the cost of a college education has skyrocketed - tons and tons of money is spent on support services and other remedial efforts for people who shouldn't be in college anyway, and wouldn't if we still had some kind of decent wage opportunities for high school graduates.

I don't think unions should be outlawed, but I think they need a ton of reform. Not sure if that's actually possible, though.

And FTR, I work in the public sector and I make much less than my private sector counterparts. My "benefits" are laughable. Of course, I live in the South so I am not unionized.

FUDU wrote:Also all I can say to anyone who thinks the sector they are employed is worse off due to the rules is simply, go get a job in the other sector, I'd at least have more respect for that person.

1) Break the unions, then fire the useless employees. Gov said if the bill didn't go through, he'd lay off 6,000 workers. Push the bill through, then fire them anyway

2) Careful what you wish for. If you want to get a govt job and be a hump, by all means go for it. But if you're a person who can't half-ass a job and still sleep at night, you'll be treated like a rented mule by those who can, and do the work of 3 people while 2 others have coffee/smoke breaks and online shop all day.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Ziner I am back to looking public sector. I started there out of college and after a very brief encounter with the red tape and mindset I bailed.

I've seen both sides donny. I was actually told by an immediate supervisor that, "this is a no stress environment". Telling that to some puke straight out of college trying to overdeliever???

Well I went from that to construction. I've played both extremes. No stress, to 100% stress. I'm ready for the 0 stress, but in a "rational world" I would be crazy to think I should be paid twice as much as my private sector counterpart. Public sector work was once seen as lower pay but better benefit. The unions and their patrons made it, better pay, WAYYYYYYYYYY better benefits. That is where things have to change.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

gotribe31 wrote:2) Careful what you wish for. If you want to get a govt job and be a hump, by all means go for it. But if you're a person who can't half-ass a job and still sleep at night, you'll be treated like a rented mule by those who can, and do the work of 3 people while 2 others have coffee/smoke breaks and online shop all day.

^This is what led to my brief tenure. If I do go back I am sure it will be the same. The only difference is I wouldn't mind the mule part anymore, at least compared to how it was their vs. my current occupation.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

gotribe31 wrote:2) Careful what you wish for. If you want to get a govt job and be a hump, by all means go for it. But if you're a person who can't half-ass a job and still sleep at night, you'll be treated like a rented mule by those who can, and do the work of 3 people while 2 others have coffee/smoke breaks and online shop all day.

Actually looking to join the Fed, have been in contact with some people who work there, might be a long process, but I think it would be an intriguing career. Certainly not going to do half the work, just the twice (well not quite) the pay....and a cushy pension all you fuckers can pay for... as if I would stay there long enough...

What isn't really being discussed is that the rank and file aren't an issue at all. No matter where you work there will always be humps (as tribe put it). The problem is that the union elite pretty much runs the democrats. That is a massive voting bloc that has been bought off with future compensation.

The rank and file have been promised ever larger pensions/medical benefits. That has not only bankrupted GM and the auto industry, but also the United States Government. The burden of these unfounded promises is killing Joe Taxpayer.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

I'm unclear as to why this is strictly a public sector v private sector argument. Shouldn't it be union v non-union? I work for the government, and I'm not in a union. UAW and AFL-CIO workers don't work for the government.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

exiledbuckeye wrote:Unions are most definitely not a black and white issue for me. Grew up with autoworker parents, the kind who actually showed up for work and worked hard. The union jobs allowed my family to have a modest middle-class lifestyle, which they would not have otherwise had the opportunity to do given their family situations growing up. Neither of them could have ever gone to college out of high school. And as far as I know, they never had outrageous salaries or benefits. They made maybe 40K each as recently as 2007. They are now retired and have very modest pensions; their 401Ks are decimated because those were all paid out in Ford stock.

I also saw firsthand how the unions allowed too many people to abuse the system. No reason for the union to get people their jobs back after they were caught selling drugs at work, etc. Much of the issues with the UAW, at least, was the overtime policies. Tons of people making fat $$$ by working overtime because the union effectively blocked the hiring of new workers.

I do have a problem with the Wal-Martization of wages and the destruction of organized labor because it is forcing too many people to rely on college education if they want any sort of middle-class lifestyle. I work in higher education and I see far too many students in college who do not have the aptitude for it, simply because you have to have a bachelor's degree for any meaningful employment these days. IMO, this is a huge reason why the cost of a college education has skyrocketed - tons and tons of money is spent on support services and other remedial efforts for people who shouldn't be in college anyway, and wouldn't if we still had some kind of decent wage opportunities for high school graduates.

I don't think unions should be outlawed, but I think they need a ton of reform. Not sure if that's actually possible, though.

And FTR, I work in the public sector and I make much less than my private sector counterparts. My "benefits" are laughable. Of course, I live in the South so I am not unionized.

EB, I see it an aweful lot like you do. I can't ignore what the unions did for my family. My grandfather came off the boat and put 4 kids through college, one through med school, on a City of Cleveland job in the 50's. Pure old school immigrant patronage. No way that happens without collective bargaining. OTOH, I, too, worked in an job where I had to deal with THREE different unions. It was ridiculous and merit goes right out the window. I can't be a supporter. Completely protects and enables the LCD .

In some ways, I have much less issue with CB being used for wages and with all the other HR policy stuff.

What is the pay and situation like at the southern auto plants? Wall-Marization or fair pay ?

Some talk up here about Kasich & a GOP GA pushing right to work through Ohio soon.

I was very hot with a light coat on... nothing cold about it, temps aren't the same here. If the sun is out, you are not cold. Only barren if you overlook the four seasons and ritz carlton at the bottom of the mountain.

Orenthal wrote:^^^Interviewed at the Cleveland Fed. Was my worst interview coming out of college. Two very attractive ironbox alpha females busted right through my BS talk express.

Sunk my battleship. The HR person who asked me how I did got a frank response.

"I sucked."

Were they hot?

Well if I get an interview I will let you know how it goes... I feel like the engine of the BS talk express when I am in interviews.... maybe I will be brought down to size.

Smoking. Very driven. The younger of the two was very near my age (fresh from college) and already had an MBA and CPA's. Eh, I'm smart, but I don't have that type of "machine" drive.

Ha! You two are the reasons places like Progressive have gone to the STAR interview approach. No BS. Each candidate asked the exact same questions that look for a

SituationTaskActionResult

Eliminates the potential for the employer to be accused of favoritism.

Jobs still go to whoever the hell was gonna get it before they ever sat down but now the bias is in the subjective scoring instead of the objective interview guide.

Fucking genius really. People can get around whatever they want. Big business will get over on unions if they want too as well. Be ugly, but enough people out of work and who need to work will remain at work to compensate for those so 'principled' as to not work.

Fire Marshall Bill wrote: There is not a bigger group of whining crying self loathing do nothing me first asswipes than the teachers unions.

Q: What has two thumbs, argues with imaginary internet people over sports and societal issues, and will have to start paying for his own retirement? A: This guy.

While every union can provide a safe haven for lazy, unproductive people, it also provides incentives and benefits for hardworking ones. You want to hate on the teacher's union, fine. There are plenty of poor teacher's riding out their last years before retirement that are hiding under it's protection (depends on individual states, I could be fired tomorrow for being a schlep, union or not). But I got news for you, that hardworking, blue collar 'Merican attitude of the '50s won't get you a job at McDowell's today. And it won't in the future either. The only thing that matters now is education. Technology is changing the face of business at a lightning fast pace. Being an autoworker in nothing compared to engineering an automated car-welding robot. And good old 'Merica ain't doing too good in math and science.

The government needs to be doing everything it can to attract qualified people to the teaching field, not running them off at every turn. You want to stop wasting ungodly sums of money on pseudo-wars to stabilize oil interests? How about hiring and retaining some quality math and science teachers to inspire a kid to develop a feasible storage system for solar and wind power? Have you been paying attention to Jeopardy! recently? A computer is beating ass. I bet the guys who designed it can tell you all about their favorite teacher.

And it probably is a pretentious stand point to think my job is more important than yours, but fuck you, what other kind of attitude would you want out of a teacher. You're damn right I think I have an important job.

Back on topic, the retirement system is a big selling point to attracting people to the teaching field. Teacher's unions helped lobby for it. There are far more hard-working, high quality teachers then there are worthless do-nothings, and for those people the union is a good thing. But bad-apples and bushels and all.

Erie Warrior wrote:But I got news for you, that hardworking, blue collar 'Merican attitude of the '50s won't get you a job at McDowell's today. And it won't in the future either. The only thing that matters now is education. Technology is changing the face of business at a lightning fast pace. Being an autoworker in nothing compared to engineering an automated car-welding robot. And good old 'Merica ain't doing too good in math and science.

The government needs to be doing everything it can to attract qualified people to the teaching field, not running them off at every turn. You want to stop wasting ungodly sums of money on pseudo-wars to stabilize oil interests? How about hiring and retaining some quality math and science teachers to inspire a kid to develop a feasible storage system for solar and wind power? Have you been paying attention to Jeopardy! recently? A computer is beating ass. I bet the guys who designed it can tell you all about their favorite teacher.

And it probably is a pretentious stand point to think my job is more important than yours, but fuck you, what other kind of attitude would you want out of a teacher. You're damn right I think I have an important job.

Some great points, EW. I've spent 33 years in the employment/recruiting business, so I think (hope) I know a little bit about who gets hired and why in US companies. And I'm married to a retired H.S. algebra teacher. So selfishly speaking, I'm glad the retirement system is what it is. All the more reason to reform it so it can still be a viable system 50 years from now. You can see that when I advocate to reform the status quo, it's not out of resenting anyone's bennies...or feeling overly taxed to support the system. The status quo benefits me directly. I advocate for it because without reform, it goes south...probably not for my household, or in my lifetime, but for my kids' generation...and their kids.

A few people have pointed out that the biggest change in our society is that the so-called unskilled guy can no longer opt out of college and instead go down to the Ford plant right out of high school and make $15-20/hr screwing in dome lights on a Fairlane assembly line, like 30-50 years ago. That guy could make a great middle-class life for himself...maybe a boat or an RV or a cottage in the country to retire to..if he was smart about his money. And his union helped him make that happen. But like O said above, those obligations to auto (and other)workers eventually killed the goose that laid the golden egg. (That and Japan)

Seems to me that the emphasis on education is all well and good, but our schools are not turning out the kinds of graduates our companies need and want to hire. My daughter wanted to be a theater major in college. I always told her...only half-jokingly..."that's fine...there's nothing wrong with being a theater major...I just had a really nice one wait on me at Chili's last weekend." Point made. She ended up working in the health care industry (as a theater major).

2010 college grads are telling me today that they're running into 2009 grads competing with them for the entry-level jobs. Never a good sign.

If it helps anyone's spirits...we've noticed a sharp uptick in business activity since about Jan 1. Companies are moving, getting off dead center and acting decisively to fill what have been open spots in their companies. We're very busy right now. Still it's clearly a "jobless recovery" in terms of its impact on the unemployment numbers..(at least that's what we called it in the last decade...not sure what the preferred term is with a Dem in the White House.) Lots of the hiring is replacing retirees and other attrition.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Both my parents are teachers. My mom is still. My dad retired a few back. He taught, was faculty manager (whatever the hell that is), coach anything and everything, volunteered his time whenever needed, and was the best damn teacher (seriously) that I ever had. I had him for calculus (scored a 5 on the test).

For a long time he worked construction on the weekends. That's also what he did with his summers too, up until he retired. My dad worked hard.

Now, I don't know much about unions. But, I do know that that man is not a "whining crying self loathing do nothing me first asswipe."

I've met FMB and he's a good dude. I don't know why he has such a hard-on for the teacher's union. I wish he didn't, because my father is a good man. So are the vast majority of the teachers I know. And I know a lot.

motherscratcher wrote:Both my parents are teachers. My mom is still. My dad retired a few back. He taught, was faculty manager (whatever the hell that is), coach anything and everything, volunteered his time whenever needed, and was the best damn teacher (seriously) that I ever had. I had him for calculus (scored a 5 on the test).

For a long time he worked construction on the weekends. That's also what he did with his summers too, up until he retired. My dad worked hard.

Now, I don't know much about unions. But, I do know that that man is not a "whining crying self loathing do nothing me first asswipe."

I've met FMB and he's a good dude. I don't know why he has such a hard-on for the teacher's union. I wish he didn't, because my father is a good man. So are the vast majority of the teachers I know. And I know a lot.

I agree there are plenty of good people that teach, but I cannot help but agree that the NEA itself is a joke. You want a very good read pick up NEA: Trojan Horse in American Education, by Blumenfield.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

For a long time he worked construction on the weekends. That's also what he did with his summers too, up until he retired. My dad worked hard.

Another reason I hate on teachers.

They get paid a years salary, get half the year off, then go out and undercut bluecollar workers trying to make a living and/or starting a business and call it "their right' to make a living.....hypocrites all...even the good ones

When they start putting in 2000 hrs a year, I'll give a shit about their constant whining and crying