My apologies. What frustrates me to no end is the hypocrisy and Iím well aware that theists arenít the only ones susceptible to that. But there are just too many willing to totally ignore their own morality and supplant with that of <insert holy book here> yet when it comes to their own behavior well then Öthat particular business about adultery.. and bearing false witness.. well that really doesnít apply to me.

Razor has an excellent point too. On the other side of the coin are the deeply hurt betrayed and devout theists. Who hold on to their faith and personal beliefs about marriage so much so that it seems they are a complete prisoner to those beliefs. To add injury would be the waywards in these cases who leverages this belief into this nice cake-eating extravaganza. That is simply too painful to watch. I certainly donít wish to call anyone out, but there are a couple of posters where I have had to avoid reading their threads altogether.
The baggage that comes with being a betrayed spouse is already heavy enough without adding any religious belief to the equation.

Jrazz posted 4/16/2014 14:24 PM

I certainly donít wish to call anyone out, but there are a couple of posters where I have had to avoid reading their threads altogether.

People have triggered reading things from every vantage point of the rainbow here as well as IRL. I really think this can go without saying.

We have a space here in this thread to talk about the kind of support we need and to try and give it to each other.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 2:25 PM, April 16th (Wednesday)]

Razor posted 4/16/2014 14:28 PM

I think most (maybe all) religions offer a pretty decent set of morals. My problem comes when devoted religious people blatantly disregard the morals of their own religion. But you know that could be anyone. Religious or not. I mean how common is it that people talk one way be do something else all together?

As a tangent. One of my good friends met his wife through a church group / bible study. The humorous/odd/weird thing here is that her job was being a stripper at a local mens club. And she would on occasion have sex with some customer for money. I really dont know how that balances with her religious beliefs. Maybe its fine. I simply do not know. But it just seems strange to me.

But I have no problem with religion or religious people. Some of my best friends are very religious. For many religion offers a framework of morals and support that are beneficial. Of course in the case of being a BS even those firmly religious question *gods will*. But they have support and that helps them get through the rough parts of life. Kudos to them I say.

Without the crutch of religion dealing with being a BS is much tougher. We dont have that framework. And that sorta leaves us swinging in the breeze. We have to find our own way of making sense of our situation on our own.

Tred posted 4/16/2014 14:54 PM

Ha! Thanks Razzie - most people don't get that joke

Ascendant posted 4/17/2014 08:59 AM

I think it's important, for TOS reasons and just to stay on topic, to be mindful of keeping the focus on "my personally bad experience with religion", when it comes up as absolutely necessary within the context of your specific infidelity situation, as opposed to "I don't like religion as a whole; here's why".

If your WS starts suddenly hiding behind their religion as a way to rugsweep the affair (i.e. I'm already forgiven, etc.), then I think it's a valid criticism of that specific person to say that you think that they are abusing their specific religion for purposes of rugsweeping. What's NOT cool, I think, is to look at your specific situation and say, "Oh, my WS is using their religion as an excuse for X/Y/Z, and hence that religion is 'bad' or people who follow it are 'bad'. I know Jrazz (and maybe DS) will prolly read this, so again, let me know if I'm wrong at any point.

I recognize that for some in the A/A community, they reach that place of disbelief (on some level, anyway) because of some bad or even horrific experiences entangled with religion and/or religious people. As such, for people in those situations it's understandably difficult to separate the two. My wife falls into that camp, actually. She had some bad, judgmental experiences very early on that have colored her views on organized religion. Some of us, like myself, reach that place without those sorts of traumas....the religious aspects of life just never 'clicked' for us.

I also think that when we scapegoat the religion of the person who does hurtful things, like cheating, it cheapens the level of personal responsibility we assign to them. It's no different from saying "Oh, it wasn't them, it was the booze/pills/abuse/AP/etc." It shifts the onus of responsibility off the person who did the actions to something/someone else.

I'm sure there are plenty of us in here who have differing levels of acceptance and issues with major religions and the associated beliefs...but this isn't the right forum (or even site) to get into that. There are plenty of those out there if you just google "atheist"....you will find them.

I'd hate for someone for who doesn't get any solace from the religious perspective, but isn't hostile to religion either, to not want to post here because they're not as vehement or hard-line as other people are.

I apologize if this comes off as 'preachy' somewhat...I really like having this space to talk about this stuff and bounce things off of people, and I'd hate for myself (and others) to lose it because we couldn't stop ourselves from devolving into a religion-bashing session.

ETA: Also, I'm pretty sure it's cool to say what your (non-religious, I assume) beliefs are and why they connect with you and guide you, provided that you're not using them in a manner so as to disparage other religions.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 9:27 AM, April 17th (Thursday)]

StillGoing posted 4/17/2014 10:01 AM

I believe in crystal light.

outside4me posted 4/17/2014 10:02 AM

Hehehe

Ascendant posted 4/17/2014 10:19 AM

I believe in crystal light.

Me too, but that's because I've played wayyyy too much of every Final Fantasy ever, where in every other installment the macguffin is a crystal of some sort.

Razor posted 4/17/2014 11:07 AM

So if its not *gods will* or karma or a spiritual test or something we need to learn from. Why did we end up being betrayed?

I would hazard to guess that most of us are good folks. We dont steal or murder or rape. So the first question is. Does being betrayed in marriage happen equally to good and bad people?

No way to know the answer to that. But Id guess its equal. And therefore random. So there is no hand guiding what happens. Its a dead stick as they say.

How can we make sense of what seem to be random acts? Why and how did this happen to us?

I dunno. I think it would be much easier to deal with if there were a guiding hand. A reason that we were (in effect) punished for doing no wrong.

Jrazz posted 4/17/2014 11:21 AM

Let it be noted that for ONCE in the history of SI, Jrazz wasn't the one who brought up video games first. #triforce

Seriously though, I'm not the judge of the tone of this thread. I commented as a member because I felt like getting out of the pool for a while but wanted to give it one more shot. Don't anyone be intimidated that I can call the owner of this website at her home at 2am and ask for favors.

I'm kidding, of course.

Something I was thinking about while picking through posts yesterday - I think that it's interesting that SI is likened to a religion (ok cult) often. If you think about it, we choose to come here knowing that there are a set of guidelines that we are expected to follow explicitly and people with the power to enforce them. We are all aware that one size does not fit all in terms of our journey through life, but we feel very strongly about how to handle a lot of life situations and are constantly trying to sort through what's universally agreed upon - and conversely which subsections agree to the different options and why.

I guess I'm just saying that it seems to me that humans feel compelled to congregate and make sense of their situations based on a community solution. (I majored in anthro in college, so I tend to pick EVERYTHING I participate in apart.) Whether we're born into a community or we choose one, it feels like we're all seeking some affirmation that we're not alone.

outside4me posted 4/17/2014 11:24 AM

One of the fundamental tenants of Buddhism is: Life Is Suffering. Once you make your peace with that, then growth can occur. Getting past the idea of fair/unfair, reward/punishment, if you will.

If I take this notion and couple it with spiritual mystery, it comes out looking to me like life is a spiritual bootcamp, an obstacle course to test ourselves and become better souls. If I look at it without the spirituality then it looks like we're just a fart in the windstorm of life. Either way, I really have no clue!

Maybe being the victim of infidelity helps to teach us to place our trust carefully and protect ourselves? At what cost? If we mitigate the lows does it also diminish the highs? I know my pain is such that right now I'm willing to sacrifice some lofty heights in order to reduce the depths. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Jrazz posted 4/17/2014 11:32 AM

Buddhism seems like a mysterious mixture of interconnectedness and nihilism to me. Like, master being unaffected by participating more fully in everything. I really like to study it because it seems devoid of judgement completely and just deals with what's inside of us. I'm inherently desperate to control my environment via analysis and codependency and it makes me crazy. Letting go of that sounds incredibly difficult, but it also feels right.

Razor posted 4/17/2014 11:37 AM

Jrazz.
The terminology used is interesting. Generally its a *cult* when we disagree or disprove of the group.

These days we have gangs vs clubs. Cults vs support groups or religions.

The Romans considered Christianity a cult. They referred to Christians as *the haters of all life* and also considered them cannibals (drinking the blood and devouring the body of Christ).

So the words used describe the the person using them more than the object in question.

My WW HATES SI. She has a deep hatred of DS in particular and I dont know why.

Several MC we went to advised against being on SI. In my view they didnt understand it and didnt like their clients getting advice outside of their control.

So SI is subject to allot of outside criticism. But it is what it is. We either find value here and try to stay. Or we dont and we leave.

I personally have had trouble keeping to the guidelines. I tend to speak my opinion too freely and have upset some here. Infidelity is a heated topic and theres allot of emotion involved and so its easy for someone like me to fly off the rails and get into trouble. Im still here (obviously) and am thankful for that as this is the only place where I can talk about all this stuff. In a large sense SI has kept me sane.

SI does provide good structure for healing. And so I see your point in that it provides what we A/As need in terms of support. And Im thankful for it.

norabird posted 4/17/2014 12:22 PM

I didn't know this thread was here! Going to jump in. (Typically.)

Without the crutch of religion dealing with being a BS is much tougher. We dont have that framework. And that sorta leaves us swinging in the breeze. We have to find our own way of making sense of our situation on our own.

I think religious or not, the main thing that equips you to recover from infidelity is an understanding that life is hard, and unfair, and yet challenges can also be opportunities...that and having a strong support system, which might be faith-based and might not. As others have said the religious framework may be less about accepting reality than imposing an inflexible idea of forgiveness or commitment, which may hold people longer in an unhealthy situation. And without being religious, I can still know that it's for the best to have the truth and an opportunity to moving toward something healthier. The benefits from a sense of God having a plan for us can also be gained from believing that we will change and grow in positive ways which ultimately we can be thankful for. Same end result of making peace with a bad turn in the road by looking towards the destination and journey ahead, whether it's one a higher being is sending you one or one you're doing yourself.

SI does stand in for faith-based community support in many ways. I would never describe it as cultic! Whenever I sheepishly tell people about my obsessive posting here since my 2nd DDay, they seem to get that it's a healthy outlet. And from reading on trauma (not serious research, just googling), offering support to others is a big tool for processing and healing the trauma. So I see it as a tool and a space for working through the issues of betrayal.

I wish I could accept and let go in a more Buddhist way, instead of still being engaged with the pain of the past and keeping it in the present, but as much as I appreciate some of Buddhism I also believe very strongly that being attached to our loved ones, our beliefs, etc. is what makes us human, and I get very resistant about stepping back on that investment.

Sorry for the ramble!

StillGoing posted 4/17/2014 13:29 PM

So if its not *gods will* or karma or a spiritual test or something we need to learn from. Why did we end up being betrayed?

Does there have to be some grand scheme behind it?

That's the thing I don't really understand. I know people want to make sense of things, but this shit all goes into a crazy feedback loop when A Reason is expected for it.

Think about how desperate people are about the concept of free will. We all make choices, we're all the masters of our destiny. Even most religions promote that. I mean barring Calvinistic stuff like the Pilgrims, free will is actually employed as a solution for the problem of evil (which I don't personally think works anyway, but not the point).

So when someone comes along and does something shitty, it seems reflex to wonder what The Reason is. Why did they do it. Why did this happen.

Free will is kind of a package deal, so how can there be A Reason beyond that action being the will of that individual? How does it remain free will if there's some grand plan it was a part of. Why is it such a taboo concept that The Reason is because someone decided to go ahead and do that shit.

Obviously there are a lot of complex chemical interactions going on there, with a lot of past events leading up to that point, but if free will is a multidimensional web of choices in the moment leading to additional multidimensional webs of choice, all intricately complex to the point of so many factors of influence it becomes impossible to predict precisely, I don't understand why that vast and mind-bogglingly complicated engine of reality isn't A Reason worth considering. Distilling it down to "Because that guy is an asshole" is just as descriptive as "Because god" in that sense.

I mean, then you get to say "Bro, why the fuck are you acting like an asshole?" and fall down that particular rabbithole.

Really mostly just musing in text here.

eta:

I wish I could accept and let go in a more Buddhist way, instead of still being engaged with the pain of the past and keeping it in the present, but as much as I appreciate some of Buddhism I also believe very strongly that being attached to our loved ones, our beliefs, etc. is what makes us human, and I get very resistant about stepping back on that investment.

lol. I think that was the gist of our Jedi conversation up there.

Also, no mention of videogames and morality can go together without a solemn nod to Planescape: Torment.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 1:32 PM, April 17th (Thursday)]

catlover50 posted 4/17/2014 14:43 PM

I am one who actually takes comfort in the idea that there is no grand plan or purpose. I don't personally believe that there is a "reason", therefore I don't spend energy trying to figure out what it is.

I still believe in good, and helping others and avoiding behaving in a hurtful way, because that is what keeps us from blowing this whole place up.

My son, when he was 16 and starting his study of philosophy, handed me what he considered the ultimate insult when he declared that I was "existentially complacent" and was appalled that I calmly agreed. I got to that place after years of study and reflection. I'm not saying that I'm done, but for now I'm cool. And my H's mindblowing behavior did not change my outlook.

StillGoing posted 4/17/2014 14:58 PM

I like that, though maybe content would work better than complacent for where you're at.

norabird posted 4/17/2014 15:06 PM

No jedi knighthood for me then!

I like the idea of being 'existentially complacent'. Once you make your peace, to a rough degree, with our eventual demise and our smallness in the scope of Universe...no point getting hung up on it. Better to focus on the being good part.

Razor posted 4/17/2014 15:28 PM

I think its normal to dissect events that have caused us pain. It comes from evolution. *eating those berries make me sick. Id better not eat them again.* That sort of thing. Dissection such as this is a evolutionary advantage.

Being with a WS that constantly cheats pretty much equates to continually eating berries that always make you sick.

So for me dissection mostly is about HOW did this happen? What led up to it and were there things I could have done to prevent it? And. How likely is it to happen again? The second being a risk assessment of our WS and weighing whether not someone new would be a safer bet.