Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.

The holy are entering already into the Coming Age and the Kingdom of Heaven, and through Christ's body, the Church, we may mystically interact with them.

May I ask if you have scripture to back up this statement?

First off, please stop saying "Scripture" as if it is a singularity. There are only "Scriptures" (plural).

Second, I have a few examples. St. John mystically entered into the Age to Come in the Book of Revelation. That's what the entire book is about. In that book: "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Which adds weight to the words of the Apostle:

"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ."

"Amen I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Continuing:

"...the Word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints"

Furthermore:

"And he was saying, 'Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!' And He said to him, 'Amen I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

To add:

"Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished." and "Therefore when Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, 'Teteleste [it is accomplished]!' And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

Another from the Apostle:

"These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come."

And "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; he said, 'Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Finally, and most importantly:

"'Ye search the Scriptures, because ye think in them to have life eternal, and these are they that are testifying concerning me."

Before replying, remember that there is no Scriptural reading without a hermeneutical interpretation. Nobody interprets the Scriptures without a hermeneutic, whether they realize it or not. So you cannot say, "your reading is not the plain reading", because there is no plain reading, as there is no reading without a hermeneutic. Rather, you must set your hermeneutic against another hermeneutic, and make an apology for it.

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us. We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"

stay blessed,habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us. We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"

stay blessed,habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around. That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what you might say perfectly Scriptural.

Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful. When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 04:25:48 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.

Your statement is monophysite. Jesus Christ is a real man.

Wherever I'm referring to Jesus on this forum, must I write God/Man or God+Man?

When I say "God" in reference to Jesus anywhere, I'm saying in my heart that He is fully God and fully Man.

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts

One more point. Several times in the scriptures, Jesus is mentioned as "man" or "God/Lord" individually. But still the scriptures aren't being monophysite.

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts

Ah, but you said that Jesus is not a saint, implying this because he is God.

But he is a real human being and the quintessential saint.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 04:32:33 PM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us. We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"

stay blessed,habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around. That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what you might say perfectly Scriptural.

Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful. When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate

stay blessed,habte selassie

I think this(especially the last part) might be to exaggerate a bit.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us. We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"

stay blessed,habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

Quote

I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around. That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what you might say perfectly Scriptural.

Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

Quote

Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful. When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate

Sorry, but in the previous post, you asked me to [defend my position], so I happened to use the same sentence in my response. I had no intention of being disrespectful. If you still feel that I have been, then I give my sincerest apologies.

Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

It was Protestants who separated the bundle in the first place, but in the Church there is no such distinction and we've never separated the two from each other, rather they are all just volumes of a mutual anthology called Tradition or the Canon.

Quote

Sorry, but in the previous post, you asked me to [defend my position], so I happened to use the same sentence in my response. I had no intention of being disrespectful. If you still feel that I have been, then I give my sincerest apologies.

You have the right to defend your position, but you should have realized exactly either what position you were defending or how it relates to Orthodox which is the context of where you are discussing this. You also have my humblest of apologies if I myself have come across as curt or rude

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 04:57:09 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

Might I gently suggest that you spend some time researching the history of the development of both the Old and New Testament Scriptures? The single book notion did not exist, to the best of my knowledge, until the invention of the printing press.

Even today, the Orthodox Church has separate volumes for the Gospel, the Epistles, the Psalms, etc. (Admittedly for convenience we will use a single volume edition). But for example, in the Divine Liturgy and some other services, the Gospel book will be brought in with great reverence.

Then there is the problem of exactly what constitutes what you refer to as the "First canon". Orthodox Christianity does not have a definitive list of the Old Testament Scriptures.

Not all Tradition is is written form. Icons form part of Tradition.

The Church is a living organism. Tradition is constantly developing. For example, hymns are being written to honour recently canonized saints (yes, hymnography is part of Tradition).

What is your experience with Orthodox Christianity (outside of the Internet, I mean)?

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us. We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"

stay blessed,habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

Quote

I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around. That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what you might say perfectly Scriptural.

Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

Quote

Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful. When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate

Sorry, but in the previous post, you asked me to [defend my position], so I happened to use the same sentence in my response. I had no intention of being disrespectful. If you still feel that I have been, then I give my sincerest apologies.

In reference to your first question about a book containing Tradition, how big of a book do you want to carry around?

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Logged

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Everyone who is in Christ is not dead. This is why the Old Testament needs to be read in light of the New Testament. I know that Saints work in our lives because I believe that I personally had an experience with my patron St. Augustine like a year or two ago when my dad relapsed. I was really sad and I went to bed crying. In my sleep, I had a dream where I was sitting next to St. Augustine and he was comforting me while I cried telling me it would be okay.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.

I believe that I personally had an experience with my patron St. Augustine like a year or two ago when my dad relapsed. I was really sad and I went to bed crying. In my sleep, I had a dream where I was sitting next to St. Augustine and he was comforting me while I cried telling me it would be okay.

When I was a Catholic, I never had experiences with Saints at all. However I had a "tremendous" conversion to Christ when the light of the Gospel was opened to my eyes.

May I ask a question : How did you identify that this particular saint was St. Augustine in your dream?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

In reference to your first question about a book containing Tradition, how big of a book do you want to carry around?

Does that fit into an iPhone app?

Oh wait.. that's right John 20:25

stay blessed,habte selassie

I'll take that as a joke, (or is the EOC tradition actually that large?) with trillions of doctrines?

How about Matthew 11:28-30

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I'll take that as a joke, (or is the EOC tradition actually that large?) with trillions of doctrines?

Ever heard of the Gospel of John?

You seem you haven't so google it and read the last sentence of it.

John 21:25 There are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they would all be written, I suppose that even the world itself wouldn’t have room for the books that would be written.

True, but nowhere does the Scriptures state that all these [trillion) doctrines are required for Salvation. The message of the Gospel was enough to convert me.

Matthew 11:28-30 truly describes the lighter burden and Jesus has Himself offered it to me, and I accepted it. Why should we ask for an even heavier burden of trillions of doctrines to follow, when He has given us all rest?

Obviously kx9 does not know that "saint" and "holy" are the same word in Greek (and probably Slavonic as well).

Yes, I did not know. Neither do the Catholics and Protestants, that's why we never call Jesus a Saint.

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.

You may find it instructive to listen to or read this - podcast or transcript. The word "saint" is exactly the same word as "holy", or as a noun "holy one". There are many physicians, but Christ is The Physician; there are many teachers, but Christ is The Teacher; there are many shepherds (pastors, if you prefer), but Christ is The Shepherd. In the same way, there are many saints, but Christ is The Saint/Holy One. It is Scriptural.

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.

You may find it instructive to listen to or read this - podcast or transcript. The word "saint" is exactly the same word as "holy", or as a noun "holy one". There are many physicians, but Christ is The Physician; there are many teachers, but Christ is The Teacher; there are many shepherds (pastors, if you prefer), but Christ is The Shepherd. In the same way, there are many saints, but Christ is The Saint/Holy One. It is Scriptural.

Okay now I understand.

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.

You may find it instructive to listen to or read this - podcast or transcript. The word "saint" is exactly the same word as "holy", or as a noun "holy one". There are many physicians, but Christ is The Physician; there are many teachers, but Christ is The Teacher; there are many shepherds (pastors, if you prefer), but Christ is The Shepherd. In the same way, there are many saints, but Christ is The Saint/Holy One. It is Scriptural.

Okay now I understand.

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).

http://www.biblegateway.com/ is an excellent and easy to use resource. I suggest you do a keyword search for "saint" in the English version of your choice, then change to a Greek version. You will consistently see the word (or a variation of) άγιος. Then do the same with the word "holy". Again you will always see the word άγιος.

Have you ever really contemplated the meaning of “Be holy, for I am holy” (I Peter 1:16, which itself refers to several passages in Leviticus)?

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).

Sure. The word we're looking at here is "Agios" and its variants in Greek; "Qdosh" and its variants in Hebrew.

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the holy and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the holy of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the holy took possession of the kingdom." (Daniel 7:21-22) http://biblos.com/daniel/7-21.htm

"for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed; but he used to enjoy listening to him." (Mark 6:20) http://biblos.com/mark/6-20.htm

"Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. (2 Timothy 2:21) http://biblos.com/2_timothy/2-21.htm

"Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2) http://biblos.com/leviticus/19-2.htm

To name a few examples.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 01:29:44 PM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.