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Cross training

I was wondering at wich points you think cross training is advantagious and disadvantagious. I currently do Taekwondo and Boxing, and have done BJJ in the past. In a few weeks im planning on takin up Judo and Karate. There is also a great MMA gym down the road that does Gracie BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA.

Now obviously if I could master the punching of boxing, kicking of taekwondo, clinch work of Muay thai, Throws of Judo, groundfighting of BJJ and the self defense of Karate I would be a monster. The problem is, dividing time like that would probably mean I didnt get very good at any of them.

At what point in your development is it a good idea to add in new arts and styles? Is there any way of determining when you can start to focus on another area? For now, Boxing, Judo and Karate seems like a good choice. I can learn in depth punching and throwing, and also lean the basics of everything and lean to put them together.

you have to make up your mind and you must know what goals you have for your training.

Do you want to compete? If so in what discipline? Do you want to become an overall proficiant martial artist or is your main goal self defense?

I only cross train occasionally for a reason. It helps with stuff I am not so familiar with but doesn't take a lot of extra time from my precious training time. I mainly want to train my core skills and try to reach a certain proficiancy in secondary skills that I also find in Karate, but the cross training in other martial arts helps me understand those things better.

First set your goals in a realistic manner and then train accordingly would be my advice.

I believe cross training should be done after you get a good understanding of your style,

A first degree black belt means you have an understanding of the basic and are now ready to begin your training. It doesn’t mean you understand your style. For most people this rank takes about 4 to 5 years. I usually recommend cross training after about 8 to 10 years.

When I cross train I look at where this technique is in my style. What kata is it in? I use cross training to better understand my style and help me unlock kata.

You have your entire life time to train don’t be in such a rush to learn it all at once

Jason Lester wrote:

There is a saying that if one looks deeper enough into their own style or system you will find all your answers there, dont be a jack of all trades, be a master of one.

Well, I started cross-training in judo 6 months after I started training in karate, and I feel it was very beneficial to do so, but there aren't many conflicts between the two because they are so different. If I had tried to cross-train something like boxing instead of judo, for example, I would probably have had some serious issues. I currently know of someone who is training at my dojo and also training with a taekwondo instructor, and that person constantly has trouble differentiating between the two methods. In order to cross-train effectively, you definitely need to have a solid base in your primary style. That said, I will differ from what others have said in that there is no rank requirement or number of years for this.

Everyone is different, and it's all well and good to say that you can cross-train once you reach shodan, but shodan in one style is very different from shodan in another style--I know of schools that will test for shodan in two years, and at least one school that won't test you for shodan until you've trained for 15 years--and some people may reach shodan without any ability to successfully cross-train, regardless of how long it took them. A person may train for two years and be fully capable of cross-training effectively, while someone else may take 6 years, another person may take 10, and some people may never be able to do it successfully.

I would say that you should be able to train in both a striking art and a grappling art without too much trouble, because they are so different from each other that you shouldn't have too many conflicting concepts. That said, you really need to decide what your primary art is--too many people cross-train with the idea of collecting techniques and methods, and they end up abandoning any foundation that they may have had and it just becomes a jumbled mess of ideas that don't work well together. Without a strong base in a single system, you don't have a structure to build onto, and it lowers the level of overall skill you can achieve.

Pick one art and stick with it for a while. How long? How about until your instructor gives you something to practice that you haven't done before, and you are able to pick it up fairly easily without much help because it simply builds on what you have already learned? That indicates that you are able to apply the things you have learned in the past to something new. You may still not be able to cross-train effectively at that point, but it seems like the best indicator I can think of. From there, when you want to cross-train, make sure you are clear with the instructor of the other art what you are trying to learn from them--learning the art of boxing is not the same as incorporating boxing into taekwondo, for example, and if you and the instructor aren't on the same page then you are both wasting your time.

My goals. Initially to learn self defense. If I feel that competing may help me in that then I might do that, and if I feel like I have reached a point where im confident in my self defense skills I may switch my focus. I also want to teach at some point. My reason for wanting to cross train is to work out how all fighting styles work so I can fit them together. For example, I want to find out if the Thai clinch and the clinch striking techniques they use are compatiable with judo throws. I feel like I should develop my own fighting style that suits me. Which techniques work for me and which dont. Parts from various styles might help me than other. Obviously training in 6 different styles from the start it a recipe for disaster, but a striking and a grappling would work.

Im not so sure that if I look deeper into, say, boxing, I will find all the answers. The problem with that, is that certain techniques take over a style. Like how kicking and punching has taken over karate, and punching boxing. Sure, both also have grappling elements, but these are things that have been forgotten. As a result, they are not developed to the point as a art that keeps training them. I havn't done any karate grappling yet, but when I do, I think its important I try them alongside judo techniques. Obviously the judokas would be better at throwing than me, but that doesnt mean the karate techniques are useless, it means I can understand when they work and when they dont.

The same with clinch work. Thai boxers are the best at clinch fighting, so learning how they fight in the clinch and seeing if and how I can incorperate that in my style is important. If I decide that the thai clinch isnt useful for setting up an instant knockout or throw (the aim of the clinch in self defense in my opinion. If they get that close, knock them out of throw them so that you can escape) then I can say forget it.

I'm a strong believer in cross training as I don't think any Martial Art is totally holistic. Although some come closer than others. I suspect this is usually down to the instructor rather than the style.

This said I think you need a good grounding in one style before trying others. There's so substitute for solid fundamentals and the best principles are universal.

There is a saying that if one looks deeper enough into their own style or system you will find all your answers there, dont be a jack of all trades, be a master of one.

all the best,

Jason

Agreed, but sometimes one needs to look outside one's style to see what is already there. Nage Waza Ukemi Waza and Kensetsu Waza etc are not taught in most mainstream Karate Schools so most Karateka need to look to Judo or Jujitsu or even Aikido to understand these concepts already found within Karate and Kata anyway.

Studying two similar karate or grappling styles is counter productive but a striking art mixed with a grappling art is perfect

Agreed, but sometimes one needs to look outside one's style to see what is already there. Nage Waza Ukemi Waza and Kensetsu Waza etc are not taught in most mainstream Karate Schools so most Karateka need to look to Judo or Jujitsu or even Aikido to understand these concepts already found within Karate and Kata anyway.

Studying two similar karate or grappling styles is counter productive but a striking art mixed with a grappling art is perfect

Good explanation, thats what I was trying to say eariler but badly. By looking to other arts it can help us understand the techniques we find in our art. Get a better understanding of the principals behind it, of other variations on this principal and other ways of doing it. Maybe a different set up to it.

Personally I've nearly always cross trained in some form. Mainly because my goals and interests changed over time but also because I've rarely been totally happy with any club I've trained at. They always seemed to be missing something. A BJJ club with highly skilled grapplers but not much street context. Or a solid Thai class but no groundfighting. Maybe I'm too fickle but I'm generally not happy with clubs with a single focus because I feel they are missing out on all the great things other approaches offer. So I spread myself out a bit. At my busiest time I was doing Thai, BJJ, Arnis and MMA all in one week. Happy times. :)

But ultimately I cross train because I enjoy the process as much as the product and like to find those links and similarities across arts. I don't have to go into battle and I'm unlikely to find myself in a life or death street fight so what I get out of training is more important to me than what my training enables me to do.

If you enjoy cross training I say go for it even if ultimately you aren't developing the same skills as you would concentrating on one thing.

That said from what I've seen of Iain's club I'd be more than happy training there as he covers so much material so well and nicely balances "fun", fighting, SD and the traditional side as well as self development and pragmatism.

I have cross trained a little and this was many years ago, and why? well i simply werent getting what i wanted or the full aspect of the art etc. but what i found was it was confusing me and didnt do me much help.

So i simply carried on with my normal training and delved into self study and teaching myself etc, found suitable open minded training partners to explore all things i felt i was missing out on or the missing part of the art. this was ,for me far more beneficial than training in different arts and clubs etc but thats just me.

I can truly say and highly recommend that one stick and look deeper into their own style or system, and self-teaching/study is a highly rewarding and also recommended. However everyone is different and must follow there own way and heart.

Also, what do you guys think of cross training in the same art? Every teacher teaches in different ways. I went back to my BJJ gym from about 2 years ago and the trainer said he could tell he trained me becasue I had the same style as he had back then. His style is now completely different, but it shows that teachers usually teach what they are comfortable teaching, i.e. what they are best at, and we pick that up.

Also, what do you guys think of cross training in the same art? Every teacher teaches in different ways. I went back to my BJJ gym from about 2 years ago and the trainer said he could tell he trained me becasue I had the same style as he had back then. His style is now completely different, but it shows that teachers usually teach what they are comfortable teaching, i.e. what they are best at, and we pick that up.

Everyone has their own personal style. Even within the organization I am a part of, you could line up 10 black belts and tell them to run a kata, and you would see each one do it just a little differently. That is where camps and seminars come in--you get to cross-train with people who practice what you do, but may have different life experiences, martial arts backgrounds, or other personal insights that make what they do just a little different from what you do. It can really open you up to the way your art can be practiced and applied!

Totally agree with wastelander, i have cross trained in the same art (shukokai) and learned a lot from different instructors and students.

also training in the same art (Karate) only different styles can help a lot also, speaking from my own personal experiences. I have trained in Sankukai, Shukokai and Shotokan, not intentionly it just happened but im glad it did because although all Karate i learned a lot and continue to learn a great deal.

One must be humble in their training, as i think more people are becoming so.

Firstly as previously stated everyone is different and this means we all have a preferred learning style (I recommend looking up and researching learning styles if you are not familiar with the issue, its an eye opener). With that said some people will be able to learn and discover for themselves by way of Jason's method of sticking to one style and looking at it from within but from different perspective say.

Imagine you are inside a large cave, the same spot on a particular wall might look very different from another point in the cave, one wall will look very different to another the floor will look different than the ceiling etc buts its all still the one cave.

Another person with a different learning style might not see these differences from the same perspective and would need to take a different approach perhaps by looking inside different caves and comparing them to note the differences and similarities.

Enough with the myagi-esque philosophising already.

I personally started with Karate (Wado) which I did for six months before having to pack it all in as I had joined the army. After completing my training and being posted to Germany I was really limited in what was available to me MA wise. There was a military club on the base that practiced a mix of karate judo and aikido. However this was one night per week, one week karate, one judo and yes the following aikido. Add into that military duties, exercises, operational tours and the opportunity to advance through any grading structure was nil. But I did pick up the odd technique or skill. Then later having been posted back to the UK I started doing Ju-Jitsu which I advanced through to about half way to black belt while also doing a little army boxing every now and then. I eventually had to change Ju-Jitsu clubs / styles and the new club again only trained one night a week so I found a karate club (Shotokan) who trained 3 times a week and where by pure accident the instructor turned out to be a good friend of my Ju-Jitsu instructor. Along the way I have also dabbled with a kungfu style, ninjutsu, and kickboxing all of which gave me something to add. When I started the Shotokan I immediately began to see things. No not dead people or little green men but things within the kata etc. Others were being told this is a block that is a strike etc but I could see throws, locks, breaks and strangles. When I mentioned these points to my instructor he affirmed what I was seeing and thinking and began to demonstrate and teach more bunkai.

The point to all this sand bag and latern routine is that at an early grade all be it with many years of MA training behind me I had developed a sense of being able to very quickly see something and give it an interpretation. Would I have been able to have done so if I had studied only one style who knows but I am an advocate of cross training while also understanding that it is not the best approach for everyone to take. Hopefully when I one day have my own class and am teaching I am thinking of introducing into the syllabus at say 2nd or 1st kyu a requirement to spend at least say six months with another MA before being considered to be ready for the next grading.

My theory is that you can practice two martial arts maximum at the same time and still do a decent job at both. If you want to excell then stick with one like a fanatic for at least a decade before branching out. For most of us casual hobby martial artists who are not going to put in three hours a day anyway that other martial art is just more good exersize. I personally like to "play" at other martial arts just for fun and enrichment, but I don't take that "play" too seriously. I just plug along at Shorin Ryu. Mentally seperate fun from your serious counterambush drills.