The sad part about that auction is it didnt sell the first time. I contacted the guy and told him I would give him $525 shipped. He wrote me back and said he had another guy offer him $575 plus shipping. I told him no thanks and to seel it to the other guy. Seems like there was no other guy.

Sam: In the add did he say anything about the speaker business he worked for or was developing? I didnt catch that in his add. Would be funny to know. But Kyle is correct. Im sure everyone in the business has tryed (tested) Brand X stuff. Why re-invent the wheel. If I was gonna make somthing wouldnt you take the best thing on the market and then reverse engineer it? But your correct when you say "My point is don't advertise that your doing it, it's just bad business IMO" I think its great for NVS I guess it show's that they are at the top of their game and people want to copy their desighn.

why does everyone jump to conclusions that is was an nvs competitor? there are people out there just like us that run these tests on different products, i know this cus a couple months ago i saw one on here comparing nvs, wetsounds and someones homemade speakers. plus how else do you say, well they were plugged in and played but not while wakeboarding, that would look even more suspicious. and i guarantee all the companys we love in wakeboarding have checked out the competition. im all for testing out the other guys stuff if its gonna evolve the sport, and at least he was being honest with what he said.

Dbot5 bought a pair of wetsounds speakers, then came out with their own pro-audio speakers. There is nothing new about taking someone elses design, and copying it. It sucks, but when someone is producing an awesome product and selling the heck out of it, people will try to copy it and take some of the profits.

Toyota/lexus, GM, Ford all will go buy the newest BMW and Mercedes bring it back and the engineers go through it with a fine tooth comb. From there they will make adjustments ( if they find something they like ) to whatever project they want. ( this came straight from a Toyota Engineer )

Not sure if its all true or not but I have heard that there is more to the story about Dbot5. I heard that they were actually in an agreement with Wetsounds and backed out. But not until they backed out of the same agreement with Skylon. Funny how similar they look to Skylons and how similar they sounds to Wetsounds. Just like anything else. Its a cut throat business world out there.

The pisser of the deal is that Duane's stuff is DESIGNED, ENGINEERED, and MANUFACTURED in America. So instead of designing their own products, everybody else just decided to have Duane's stuff knocked off by the Chicoms at 1/3rd the price, and then retail it to the customers at basically the same price as NVS.

Like Brady said this is very common in all R&D departments. Take the good stuff and apply it to your design. Kind of like most features on a boat. Towers, Tower Speakers, Ballast systems, wake plates and many other things.

Ben, what Brady said is all I know. Whether Dbot5 actually copied wetsounds, only Tim and the wetsounds engineers would know that. Im not trying to start a war, I am just showing that all companies 'copy and paste' ideas. I don't think Wetsounds has anything to worry about, they have a pretty good customer satisfaction rate.

E Double U is right except that it probably happens in every industry to one form or another. It's called competition and it's probably been happening since before recorded time so what's the big deal? It's how companies and products grow and get better. The computer your now on, the cell phone you use to the fast food you had for lunch all rely on this theory. If it wasn't for that nothing would get better and companies would stay the same. They either keep up and produce something even better or die by the wayside.

It sucks but it's all of us that cause that by buying products in the first place and demanding bigger and better. So who's at fault, certainly not the guy trying to make a buck. Don't think NVS didn't do exactly the same thing when he designed his products to be better than what was available then. Kudos to him for made in america but in this economy it's a rare thing indeed.

I think the first production HLCD marketed for wakeboard towers was made by a company called Nvert. They are no longer around. They never really marketed the product that well. I bet they are kicking themselves now...

I don't want to get into an online war here but I have to correct your statement and the pictures you posted. The fact is I had designs for our 485 that you posted above over a year before NVS came to market. I was lurking on this web site and remembering reading Duanes original post, here http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/79257.html

This is his first set of red pvc ones, thinking I better hurry up and get our speakers to market because people are starting to develop HLCD tower speakers. So there was no copying whatsoever. I had HLCD designs and drawings the end of 2002 and prototypes on the water for testing in the beginning of 2003. We spent a lot of time engineering and designing and tooling the products. When I first saw Duanes product and also when the Nvert product popped up. I pushed really hard to get our product to market. Unfortunately with the designs of our speakers and the amount of engineering and tooling. It was not something I could rush. I decided to not rush the product to market but to keep perfecting the design and the sound and wait to release the product when it was perfect.

And if you think about your comment. What do you see. 2 mid bass drivers with a horn in the center. That is the only similarity there is. We use an injection molded composite housing. NVS uses metal cans. We use a single housing. NVS has 2 cans with the horn in a center part. Ours is a unique shape. Proprietary drivers etc..

Brady is correct. DBOT5 came to Skylon and to us at Wet Sounds to build speakers for them. But instead of working with Skylon or us. They chose to just take the products from both of us and send them overseas to try to copy. They took the Skylon housing and look and tried to make a driver like the PRO 80 from us. I will not get into anymore detail on it but those are the facts.

It is a very unfortunate situation in this industry and every industry as many have mentioned that companies resort to such tactics.

Our philosophy is simple. People will always try to copy what you do. The best thing to do is stay one step ahead. And protect your designs.

Tim, Although it is unfortunate for the Owners of Wetsounds, it gives us the consumer another option for tower speakers. As mentioned above it will drive the price down enabling the consumer to buy great products at a lower price. Competition is great for the consumer but not so great for Manufacturers. It is kind of Slimy what DBOT did but it happens in business everyday. Good Luck but you guys dont need it because you make some of the best products out there.

This industry cracks me up - these guys protect their little $350K a year market like it's a biotech company on the verge of inventing the cure for death. Come on guys these are SPEAKERS - nothing new here since - what 1980???

I have a friend that has been/seen the DBOT5 facility in China though - they have a couple of nice places setup there.

Yes - i do think DBOT5 makes all of the Skylon parts that Skylon outsources overseas. I think it's a highly guarded secrete though.

Why can't we all just get along? Maybe it's the summer ending that as everyone so agitated? Haha

Muji, it is the fact that a company would go out and directly copy someone else's design. For a company to do that is rediculus. I am sure that Wetsounds is not afraid of competition amoung brands. That is what will bring out new designs and keep the market alive. But to downright STEAL someones hard worked on information is an f'ing joke. Think about it, you spend thousands of dollars and time designing the latest and greatest for another person to steal and make money off of. Do you think that would be right? I would never purchase a product from a company that did this and I pity the person that purchases their product knowing this information. Some people need to grow a spine.

t bag, if they are really stealing someone elses design then it is the original designers own fault for not pattenting it! if it is pattented and they trully copied someone else than they could sue the $#!t out of em. but i havent heard about that happening so either someone was an idiot and didnt get it pattented or it wasnt really coppied, or a third party has the pattent and they both really coppied it (which i really dont think would be the case cus ive heard AWESOME things about wetsounds)

I understand what you are saying about choices but those choices don't always wind up a benefit for the consumer. What it really winds up doing is confusing the consumers. Plus it doesn't bring anything innovative to the market. Thanks for the comments!

Muji,

Where did you get those numbers from? I am guessing it was a joke. Missing some zeros there. I am guessing the other comment was a joke as well about them making Skylon and having anything overseas.

Kevin,

It is a lot more complicated than that. There are two types of patents. Utility and Design. There are also multiple different design aspects laid out in patents. You can still copy products without infringing on patents. (by the way we own all the designs)

I think the whole start of this thread and what is probably the truth with that ebayer. Is that there are people out there that find it easier to try to buy someones products and try to copy it. Instead of taking the time and money and innovation to bring something new to market.

So like I said, you gotta stay one step ahead, or two steps of three etc....

Well said Tim. I think that you guys are doing a great job of staying ahead of the game. I didnt mean to start a war with the comments about Dbot5. But I did think that it was important to call it like it is. I have been nothing but impressed with my Wetsounds and I will continue to spread the word about what I think was a cheap shot. Yes it happens in this industry just like anywhere else but no matter how you look at it someone had to spend their time and hard earned money to get the product to this point. Taking the information under false pretenses is just like stealing. Thanks for taking the time to respond Tim. This is why your customer service and products stands high above the rest.

Tige is putting wetsounds in EVERY BOAT. Ill believe it when I see it . Yes mabey Im wrong and all 3 sold 1001 speakers . I guess the point I was trying to make is that these are not huge companys with huge sales #'s and profit margins. People like Duane and Tim are not killing it. IMO They are in the industry because they love it not for the money. Im not sayin Duane and Tim are the Mother Theresa's Of HCLD speakers but Im sure images of rolling in money were not the reason for Pro'80's and Addictions

Yup, every 2008 Tige is coming from the factory with Wet Sounds. Pro 60's on the tower, XS650 in the boat and XS10 sub.(note: some dealers may order their boats with no stereo as well) Also, every Chaparral wakeboard edition comes with 2 pairs of PRO 60's as well and Wet Sounds is an option on the Caravelle boats that customers order with a tower. By the way, I'll take your bet too!!!!

First the idiots with abnormally high testosterone levels and alcohol induced hearing impairment. Now we can expect to see novice I/O boaters with over powered systems blasting across the lake pulling their tubers!

Can't wait to see the first death related lawsuit claiming pro audio was the cause.

I know I'm being selfish but I long for the not so distant past when pro audio systems were on another level.

You dont need pro audio to bother people. I have seen a boat load of weeners with a stripper pole and 2 6x9's thinking they were cool be way more annoying than anyone with Pro Audio. But Yes I see Cliff's point.

Yes - there must be passion around this or there wouldn't be so much bantering about this. Our company does $38M a year in goods that is brought in from Asia (mainly for costco) and no one in our sectors get too upset when we copy the crap out of each other. I guess it's less stressfull when there is more $$ laying around to get a hold of ;-)

OK - lets do the math, Leo's is no good as his numbers are way inflated and in boat door/cabin speakers don't count here since they can't amount to much in revenue.

All speaker market - tower speakers ONLY. Lets say it's 4,000 units a year. They do sell on the street for 1K, but you know the that little thing in distribution called wholesale, distributor and retailer? That takes some of the fun out of it - Gross $ the market at the retail side is 4000 times 1000 = $4M - a little interesting i must say, but that's not what any of these manufacturers see. They sell these same speakers to the dealers for probably at 500 a set, so that puts the whole market at $2M at the manufacturer level. If the manufacturer is lucky they make the speakers for 250 a set, but then shipping, warranty, etc. it probably costs them 300 a set. If they run a very lean operation the gross profit is about 800K for the whole 4000 speaker market. Take out of this marketing, operating costs, insurance, etc. That leaves about 250K maybe in profit to share with what - 3 makers? That 250k wouldn't even cover my salary for a year, not to mention each deal our company does is worth 1.2M to 3.2M and if delivered on time we take in NET profit of about 18 - 22% of the whole deal. Now that's something to get passionate about, at least in my opinion.

If the speaker market is lets say 10,000 units per manufacturer - 30,000 units a year then the numbers start to look interesting. Considering there are less then 20,000 units of wake specific ski boats sold per year, i think that the 4000 to 6000 units per year is more realistic. Maybe if someone can produce some proof i can be persuaded differently. I was being a little facetious with the 350K number, but come on i am not that far off. Probably pretty damn close for most of these guys.

Consider this lesson in business free the next one will cost you $$$$.

Tim - I work for a company that has offices all over inland china, my friend has been to DBOT5's place along with the places that Mr. Archer has over there. So they have something there, i assume that you guys do to given you make everything overseas - or does your stuff come out of Taiwan?

Wow, I had never even seen this thread until today. I talked to this guy for about an hour before I bought these speakers. He seems like a very good guy and will stand behind these. Im not sure I get what all the fuss is about? Also the company did in fact pay for the speakers full price, I was faxed the invoice. Everyone jumps to conclusions without getting the facts. A few years ago there was an ad in our local paper, it was for a house on the river for 68,000 I thought it was a typo. A week later I called it just for the heck of it. The lady in fact sold it the same day it came out in the paper and it was the correct price. At the time the property was worth around 200,000. I drove out to look at it and asked her why she had let it go so cheap? She said she was going through a divorce and wanted to screw her husband. Not every great deal is a scam. I don't know why everyone is so cynical.

Daniel, this thread was about the fact i thought it was a bad business decision to openly state in a very public place you are copying your comprtitions product. Im sure the speaker is fine.....but for you to say it's new...that's another thread, lol.

The speakers have barley been used. I got a very good deal on them. I only bought them so I could either sell them or trade for a pair of Pro 485's. Im the kind of guy who will buy anything if I know I am getting it for way under retail. I have made lots of money buying things on the spot that i didn;t need. Bought a 95 Dodge Ram for 10,000 sold it within 7 days to a dealership for 14500. Bought a house for 68,000 sold it 30 days later for 93500 Bought a house for 72,000 sold it 3 months later for 107,000 Bought a car for 300 bucks a few months ago and sold it the same day for a grand. When I saw these speakers I instantly emailed the guy. He called me and we spoke for some time. I felt that he was very honest with me and I pulled the trigger. Im not out to rip anyone off. 600 bucks for these are a very good deal. I don;t need them since I already have the Pro 80's on my boat. But I would like to atleast trade for the Wetsounds 485's or atleast sell these to help pay for the 485's. Either way I get a good eal and so does the person who buys them.

So Dan you "THAT GUY" that when your trying to sell somthing for a good price you come along and have to beat the hell out of the seller and get it for next to nothing and then you try to Re-sell it for more or what you should have payed for it from the orignal seller?

"YOU'r the Man". Your the Tom Voo of Tower Speakers,

If you dont know who Tom Voo is he was the cheezey Chinees Guy on late night TV selling his get rich program buying and selling house's LOL LOL

Glad I could make your day Grant. I have never heard of this guy but he's funny. Guys like this will always pretend they have some sort of secret that will unlock your financial freedom. The key to their getting money from you is the fact that they make you think they have a secret and if you knew that secret your life is going to change. I don;t know if anyone has heard of Don lapre he does alot of infomercials. I talked with him on the ohne for a while once and he told me that if you could make people believe that you have the secret, something that if they had then their lives would change forever, then you will become richer then you ever imagined. The truth is the only one who becomes rich are the guys selling this bogus information. I don't know what this Voo guys 3 little words are but Im sure they are somethihng like this.

1. Work 2. Persaverance 3. Creativity

Or something similar. Also, I did'nt post that to brag, I was simply stating that I like to wheel and deal. And to answer your question, yes I guess I am that guy, I will always try and get your product or service for the lowest price I can get it for. I guess it's in my genes. On the other hand, offering speakers for $600 that sell for 1000 is a great deal in anyones book. Wanna hear another funny story? I knew ya did. I bought my first boat for 32,000 sold it at the end of summer for 34500 which was a good deal for the guy who bought it. Bought my next boat for 30000 sold it at the end of summer for 34,000 which again was another great deal for the buyer. The buyer who was in Sandiego sold it again for I belive 37,000.

Dan: Its all good. I said the Tom Voo coment because he was a wheeler dealer of houses. I guess he made Millions. Your real estate story's reminded me of him. Good 4 you if you can buy use and re-sell for a profit. The B-52 in your profile is cool looking. Remindes me of Bumble Bee in the Transfomers movie.