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Re: This isn't surprising

Unconstitutional searches are ok if you have a (D) after your name. Didn't you get the memo?

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: This isn't surprising

I'm surprised the public is not going crazy at this point.
These revelations across the board of the government overstepping their limits and stomping everything this country was founded on, should be foremost on people's minds and should be on the news, as well as, legal action being pushed against those that have broken that which they pledged to defend.
Instead there is too much of the "whistleblower" and "traitor" talk from the media, who themselves, should be outraged! Too much focus is being put on the messenger who was brave enough to tell the people of the United States that their government is abusing its power in the name of national security.

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Re: This isn't surprising

Originally Posted by Ravens44

I'm surprised the public is not going crazy at this point.

For the folks that are not outraged, I would suspect they have 2 main reasons:

First, they worship Barack Obama and cannot fathom that anything that would put him in a negative light being anything but a partisan attack. Of course they are having a difficult time squaring that circle because some of his most ardent defenders on this issue are Republicans, but I am sure a large percentage think those Tea Partiers are behind this somehow, and/or...

Second, the threat of "terrorism" has been so over-hyped in this country that we are now willing to let our government infringe on our basic rights in the false sense that it somehow keeps us safer. There are extremely strong dis-incentives for politicians to even suggest a rational discussion of security threats vs. the control measures put into place, much less to suggest that some (many) are not really keeping us any safer and should be removed. I suspect that the real terrorists around the world are chuckling at the irony of this.

EDIT to add: For those that may take issue with my "second" reason above. Please note that I am not claiming that their is not ANY threat of terrorism in this country (the events in Boston make that abundantly clear), however, the over-reaction to the perceived risk of that threat by our political leaders and those with a stake in the multi-billion dollar "security" industry is costly, both in dollar terms and civil liberties. And it is far from clear that these actions have made us any more safer from the risk. More on that topic here: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...tics_of_3.html

These revelations across the board of the government overstepping their limits and stomping everything this country was founded on, should be foremost on people's minds and should be on the news, as well as, legal action being pushed against those that have broken that which they pledged to defend.

The ACLU has now filed suit. Interestingly, a previous suit in 2005 was dismissed because the judge said that the ACLU did not have factual proof that the government was collecting this data (that suit was more-or-less based on the, now proved correct, assumption that these programs were in place). Now that these facts are out there, the ACLU should be able to clear that hurdle and at least have their day in court.

Instead there is too much of the "whistleblower" and "traitor" talk from the media, who themselves, should be outraged! Too much focus is being put on the messenger who was brave enough to tell the people of the United States that their government is abusing its power in the name of national security.

Of course. It is much more easier, and cable-news entertaining, to focus on this individual and his personal traits - either as a hero or a traitor - than it is to have serious discussion on real vs. perceived security risks to our citizens, Constitutional law and civil rights. How boring!!!

Both sides are split over this issue. Being Libertarian, I am opposed to this kind of spying. But I was surprised to learn that Dr. Gingrich is supportive of it.

Even more surprising, people like Michael Moore are also against it.

I am starting to think there's a crossroads upon us (or in the near future). Now more than ever, there are outspoken people in both political parties who seem to have a more libertarian view on issues.

We may have a legit and viable third party very soon.

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Re: This isn't surprising

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

Even more surprising, people like Michael Moore are also against it.

For the record, this is the first time I find myself commending Michael Moore. He is at the least consistent in his views on this topic (as is Glenn Greenwald), which is a far cry from the many on both sides that have switched their views based upon the party holding office.

I am starting to think there's a crossroads upon us (or in the near future). Now more than ever, there are outspoken people in both political parties who seem to have a more libertarian view on issues.

We may have a legit and viable third party very soon.

We'll see. I am not as optimistic. Individual freedom demands individual responsibility. As a society, I think we are too scared to take on those responsibilities and much prefer the (perceived) security of big government.

Re: This isn't surprising

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

For the record, this is the first time I find myself commending Michael Moore. He is at the least consistent in his views on this topic (as is Glenn Greenwald), which is a far cry from the many on both sides that have switched their views based upon the party holding office.

Sean Hannity is a giant douchebag, and I'm convinced he's not all that smart.

However this video it seems to me the data mining project of the NSA he was talking about was something different than what broke recently. I mean, how could he be talking about it back then if it just came out?

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

We'll see. I am not as optimistic. Individual freedom demands individual responsibility. As a society, I think we are too scared to take on those responsibilities and much prefer the (perceived) security of big government.

Me either. The way the world is going, more and more things are becoming easier to do via having things done for you. People are lazier now more than ever and I think/feel people find it easier to have the Government handle their responsibility instead of them taking the time and energy to do it at the cost of surrendering just a little bit of privacy and freedom.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin

Re: This isn't surprising

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Sean Hannity is a giant douchebag, and I'm convinced he's not all that smart.

However this video it seems to me the data mining project of the NSA he was talking about was something different than what broke recently. I mean, how could he be talking about it back then if it just came out?

What just came out was proof - via a whistle-blower/traitor (your mileage may vary) - that the telephone data tracking, and social media tracking, actually exists within the security community.

What Hannity was talking about in 2006 was a report by the USA Today of such a program - without the actual factual proof. Regardless, he took a very pro-government stand on the matter which he has now conveniently flipped.

And now a CBS reporter who was investigating the Bengazi attacks has her computer hacked.

The rule of law is dead.

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