Put simply, for the sake of your customers, it's time to tell UPS to print a steel rod and stick it somewhere. They are the single most expensive and manipulative shipping group in the world - aside from the questionable legality of slapping brokerage fees on unsuspecting buyers (even though the law says both parties must be aware of terms and agree to costs beforehand, and UPS never told me I'd have to fork over extra cash), there's also the fact that those fees are outrageously high and completely unnecessary.

I don't understand why any company or individual would use UPS if they have any choice in the matter. We, as your customers, do not have a choice, because you've arbitrarily decided to use UPS and nobody else. You, Shapeways, do have a choice, and you can choose different shipping agents. If you care about your customers, you'll switch over to an alternative as soon as possible.

Let me guess - you are a Canadian ? From all I have seen here, this seems to be an issue with the Canadian branch
of UPS (for whatever reason - do they have to collect import taxes, or are they simply in such a strong position in the
Canadian market that they can charge additional fees at will?)
I have no problem with UPS over here in Germany (except maybe their outrageous parking habits, but they are on par with
German Postal Service in the disguise of Documents Hopelessly Lost).
Shapeways surely is well aware of the problems their Canadian customers are experiencing, but it may not be easy to
find another shipping solution (chances are that they got a special deal from UPS in return for an exclusive and/or long term
contract).

Yes, I'm Canadian, and no, the fees they charge are not import taxes. Sometimes there are import taxes, and I happily pay them, but UPS will often charge brokerage fees approaching 50% of the total order when all they did was sign a couple pieces of paper and pay a very small import fee (probably 3 to 10 dollars).

For example, I recently ordered some Shapeways prints that totalled $55 - I had to pay $20 in brokerage fees, not to Canada customs, not as import tax, but for the privilege of UPS signing a couple papers for me. It's possible - after a lot of grappling, arguing, and occasionally legal-threatening - to self-clear the shipment and not have to pay those brokerage fees, but I don't order bulk. I order various small shipments, and I don't have time to grapple with UPS to self-clear every single one of them.

This is a really serious concern. I don't know where Shapeways is based, but my UPS receipt shows the shipper as Shapeways, based in New York - if it's coming from the US, the USPS is an infinitely greater choice for shipping than UPS for us Canadians.

EDIT: Let me just add that I would be happy to pay more shipping to the USPS than pay low shipping and a huge brokerage fee to UPS. $6.50 shipping is great, but I'm betting USPS shipping would be cheaper once you factor in the extra cost (and aggravation) of UPS and their moneygrubbing.

Ouch. This does sound "interesting" at least. Well, at least you are still better off than that poor chap over in the
General Discussion forum who cannot order any of his stuff at all as he lives in Russia... maybe you should team
up and meet mid-way to live in Reykjavik,Iceland
Problem from shapeways' side of this is probably that "all of us" (non-Canadian customers, that is) may have to
pay more if UPS loses its exclusive status.

Yep, and that's how they get you. Give you cheap shipping to entice you in, and oh by the way, please don't ship with anyone else ever, and then they !@#$ you on the rebound.

I don't want to make other people pay more shipping - that's the last thing on my list. On the other hand, I also resent it if Shapeways' opinion on the matter is, 'yeah, well, to hell with those Canadians, who cares about their shipping costs.' If I can't use a shipping agent other than UPS here I'll just have to go elsewhere - which would be a bum deal for me and Shapeways, because they'd lose a customer, and I'd have to deal with much more sketchy companies, most of whom don't even offer metal printing.

Furthermore UPS is the single reason why I just can't get excited or interested about placing any future orders with Shapeways.

I live in Prince Edward Island and until only a couple of weeks ago we had no actual UPS office anywhere in our province. Instead our local Purolator company acted as an agent for UPS. With both of my purchases I went through the exact same scenario: UPS will not leave a card at my house to notify me if I missed their delivery driver so I have no way of knowing that my parcel is even on PEI. My only option is to obessively check the UPS website to know when it might have arrived. The first time I ordered from Shapeways the UPS website advised that I needed to call UPS regarding it's delivery. If you have a great deal of time to waste you should really try calling UPS and try to get a human to talk to. They just don't hire them. After a number of tries and a tremendous period of time I finally did find a human in there. That guy must have been new and accidentally answered the phone:

"We've tried delivering three times to your address already and if you do not pick up your parcel we're going to have to return it" was their advice.

"First I've heard of it" I replied

"Where do you pick up a parcel?" I asked. The guy on the phone told me they don't share that kind of information.

I really love the brokerage surprise when you do finally get your parcel. There's no precise calculation and the Purolator office insists that you can not pay by credit card. Only cash or cheque. Apparently, and I quote: "UPS won't accept credit cards". Funny, their website says they do.

In retrospect I see now the trend my rant is taking and I'll curtail it here.

UPS service is crap and their terrible service has become the face of Shapeways to me. I can't seperate the two.

The face of a company is the person that serves you. Shapeways is just a website and they're building a business with a lowsy sales team on the front end. You have to really want something from them to deal with their shipping team. The product is awesome. I really, genuinely wish the shipping thing could be fixed.

If Shapeways is partnering with UPS and forcing us to use them, and only them, as a shipping agent, then Shapeways is saying, "We are comfortable with the level of service UPS provides. We think they reflect favourably on us and our work. Our level of care and concern for you our customers has led us to UPS."

And I'm not comfortable working with a company that would have such low standards for customer service and quality that they would see how UPS behaves and say, "Yes, this is acceptable, and we want this trend to continue."

You need to take into account the fact that most of the models are shipped from the Netherlands.

I live in the US, so I don't know what the exact situation is, but I imagine that it's rather hard to flag down a USPS mailperson every day when you are in Eindhoven, NL. It's not like there's a USPO on every street corner.

Yes, I feel your pain.. UPS is not my favorite either, but I do know that it's difficult for a multi-national company to get good shipping rates to all locations.

For them to have two separate shippers, I can imagine that the labor in their distribution process has to at least increase by 50%.

Give them time.. they'll work out something.

Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products

Are you certain they are shipped to ME from the Netherlands? My shipping receipt has the shipper (Shapeways Inc.) listed as being in New York. Even if they are printed in the Netherlands, they seem to be shipped to me from New York. In which case, there would be a USPO on every street corner.

Even if it's shipped to me direct from the Netherlands, it's still completely unacceptable to offer only one shipping method. It's unethical and disrespectful to the customers to make us suffer with lousy shipping so Shapeways can make a deal with them.

I hope they are working on something, but I haven't seen any indication that they are. It would be nice if they could at least let us know they give a damn and solutions are being looked for. I'm trying to sell a lot of my creations on Etsy, and I'm having to mark up my products significantly more than my competition to deal with these damned UPS fees. If it gets to the point that my business is suffering I'll have to take it elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure they ship to Canada from US, not from Netherlands. It's my first time ordering from Shapeways so I don't know if this is always the case. I live in Toronto and the UPS tracking list initial point of tracking as Louisville, Kentucky. The delivery notice on my door from UPS also says package from USA.

Around Toronto, there's quite a few UPS outlets but none of them actually deal with delivery, just franchise for shipping out. Even in a major Canadian city I have drive 1 hour to pickup at their depot.

Compared to all the other shipping services from US to Canada, UPS is the worst by far. USPO shipping is delivered by Canada Post (our national mailing) so there's plenty of pickup points. Same with FedEx and DHL, great customer services despite they are not Canadian delivery services. UPS is the only one I ever had drop packages outside my door on a rainy day... So I feel your pain.

Compared to all the other shipping services from US to Canada, UPS is the worst by far. USPO shipping is delivered by Canada Post (our national mailing) so there's plenty of pickup points. Same with FedEx and DHL, great customer services despite they are not Canadian delivery services. UPS is the only one I ever had drop packages outside my door on a rainy day... So I feel your pain.

I just posted about this issue in another thread, but you said it more eloquently. UPS is by far the worst, and i can't believe they are still in business. To pick up anything, I'd have to drive an hr from Vancouver, and they are only open M-F??? People have jobs.

OK, enough venting. It gives me a bit comfort knowing that I am not alone.

This is my first shapeways order and I am very unsatisfied right now.....not Shapeway's fault, but it does play a huge factor when thinking about future orders.

Until a more reasonable shipping company is used, I'd recommend reship.com. I've used them before for orders that are not available in Canada. Basically, they send the shipments to a facility in portland OR (no sales tax). Then they reship it to Canada or wherever (you have to pay for the shipping of course) and at least they take it to Canada Post so you'd actually have easier access to your purchase. I recently changed my shipment to the reship.com address solely due to the horrible Canada/UPS issue. You do pay for double shipping (shapeways/ups and reship/canadapost), but at least you have access to your product.

Another Canuck speaking out as I have on MANY occasions about the expensive UPS shipping. At least I don't live on PEI... that sounds like a lousy situation.

Quite apart from the expense there just doesn't seem to be a way of calculating exactly how much you will be charged at the door. Unlike the previous poster I wasn't lucky enough to find that stupid human who answered the phone!

I'm not sure what the mentioned issue is with them NOT accepting credit cards, though - I used to be able to pay by cash but now they will ONLY accept payment by credit card.

Re the Etsy issue: Yes, I agree absolutely with the point that factoring in the UPS charges simply makes your product way pricier than most on the site; I swear some people sell their items at a LOSS there they are so damn cheap sometimes! How can you compete with that?

I regularly buy from a jewellery supplier in the US, with packages of comparable size and weight. They, however, give me an option to ship via postal service and how much do they charge me? .... $5.80 !! Yes, they say it could take four weeks to get to me and sometimes it does, but for the most part it's about two weeks.

Since no-one from Shapeways seems to want to weigh in here - they're probably so sick of answering the same damn complaints! - I will tell you that I have been told Shapeways is *considering* opening up a Canadian shipping point, and that will make things a lot cheaper for us. How far those plans have come I have no idea.

I would adore - ADORE - a Canadian shipping point. As it is stands, I'm restricted to orders under $20, because as soon as I go over $20, UPS starts slappin' the brokerage fees on, hugely increasing my markup for resale and making it impossible to sell to anyone at the exorbitant prices resulting from it.

It's just simple math. Better shipping options means I'll be able to make models over $20, order larger quantities at one time, and reduce my markup, meaning more customers will buy them from me, meaning I'll order even more, meaning more money for Shapeways. This is why their insistence on UPS-only baffles me. It's detrimental to me their customer, and to themselves as well. A USPS or FedEx shipping option would alleviate a lot of those problems, and a Canadian shipping point would eliminate them altogether.

Who can make the most of it, and screw the end-customer as much as you can, because the fat cats at the top are not going to take a hit on their profits.

Case in point:

My model was "Origin Scanned" in in Maspeth, NY, on Monday, December 10, 2012 at 7:01 PM.

It was placed on the truck for delivery on Wednesday, December 12, at 8:25 A.M. for a transit time of 1 Day, 13 Hours, 24 Minutes.

The UPS website had it originally listed to be delivered by close of business on Wednesday, December 12. It has been on the truck, marked "out for delivery" for a grand total of 2 Days, 7 Hours, 35 Minutes. Almost TWICE as long as it took to get from New York, to the distribution center in Swainsboro, Georgia, some 36 miles away.

I called UPS, and was told "It was sent to an incorrect distribution facility, and that error has been corrected. It is now at the Pleasantdale, Ga distribution center, awaiting delivery to you. Mind you, it is still marked as "out for delivery" on their tracking website. No mention of a re-route to another facility. UPS merely changed the projected delivery date on Wednesday, on Thursday, and on Friday.

Here's the problem: Swainsboro is 35 miles away. Pleasantdale is just outside Doraville, Ga, which is 149 miles away.

The UPS rep did not know that Pleasantdale is over 110 miles further away from me than Swainsboro. I don't live in the largest city in Georgia, but that's totally ridiculous, to send a package to a distribution center that is over 100 miles farther away! What are they thinking?

The projected date of delivery is now December 18.

That just happens to be the exact day I needed it in hand. I now won't have any time to do anything to it, if there is anything that needs to be done with it. I can't paint it, I can't use it, and I feel like I have wasted the money I spent on it, because it is now a completely useless thing to me. I ordered when I did, and from whom I did, because it was clear that my order would be delivered on time, and before I needed it.

Unless or until Shapeways gives the people who give them money another shipping option, they won't get my business any longer.

I'm voting with my wallet. Shapeways won't get any more money from me. I don't care how good their stuff is. It's my money, and I choose where I spend it.

@PeregrineStudios - I am in total agreement with everything you said there. I am sick of getting shafted by UPS. I've said it before; if I buy from a company in the US who only offers UPS for shipping I will write to them and request postal delivery. If they want my business they do so, otherwise at least I've let them know they lost my business because of that.

@lancer525 - While I understand where you're coming from (see above!) I'm afraid I'm "locked into" Shapeways. Despite the cost I cannot find a cheaper alternative. I like Shapeways and for the most part love their Customer Support team, but business is business and if a service of equal quality - but cheaper - came along I would have to seriously consider jumping ship.

We are told that Shapeways is "working on" the UPS problem... but we've been told that for at the very least one year...

Glenn, and everyone, we ARE working on alternatives to UPS. It's a very large project and not something that can be changed overnight, like fixing a simple bug on the website, hence we will continue to work on it for some time to come!

As I'm sure you are aware, there are pros and cons to using various mail carriers - for Canadians, USPS would be great as it eliminates brokerage fees, for locals, UPS is great as it provides tracking...the list goes on.

It's not a simple solution, and any solution is not going to please everyone, just like UPS does not please everyone right now.

It's not just a question of the "buckage" either - but a combination of tracking, shipping, cost and location services.

Please know that we DO hear that it is an issue and we are, and continue to, find a good solution for (almost) everyone!

I can appreciate the logistics of it and please note that I'm not saying to get rid of UPS completely - but rather keep it as an option; give the customer the choice. I'm sure there will be times when I will have to choose UPS myself if I'm in a hurry, even if I don't want to.

Summed up pretty much exactly right, Glenn. We're not looking for UPS to be dismantled or anything, and there are times when we'd probably pay for the extra speed. But it's that we have no options that irks me. The only reason I've even using Shapeways at all right now is because there are no brokerage fees on orders under $20, so as long as I restrict myself to that then I don't need to pay extra - that, and $6.50 for overnight shipping is great. But again, that's only so long as I restrict myself and my models to under $20 per order.

It's great to hear from Shapeways and hear that you're working on the problem. That definitely raises my spirits.

Ouch - yep, I've been there, PlainOrb. If they don't have any money to collect from you, they drop it on your step, bang on the doorbell a few times to let you know it's there, then take off. Not at home? Well then 'up yours', apparently, because they will absolutely leave it on your front step in a blizzard or a rainstorm. I just barely caught one of mine the other day before a windstorm picked it up and would have blown it god knows where. No matter the condition of the box, I hope your order was fine!

Yes, I too can confirm that when they don't have to collect money they will often (but not always) just leave it at the front door. Luckily, this has never been an issue for me, but in some places I can't imagine that package staying there too long whether it leaves with Man's or Nature's help

Until a more reasonable shipping company is used, I'd recommend reship.com. I've used them before for orders that are not available in Canada. Basically, they send the shipments to a facility in portland OR (no sales tax). Then they reship it to Canada or wherever (you have to pay for the shipping of course) and at least they take it to Canada Post so you'd actually have easier access to your purchase. I recently changed my shipment to the reship.com address solely due to the horrible Canada/UPS issue. You do pay for double shipping (shapeways/ups and reship/canadapost), but at least you have access to your product.

I don't know why, but I only now really clued in to this post. It's a fantastic idea, and most importantly, it would get around the brokerage fees, my biggest issue with UPS, and would get around UPS leaving packages out in the rain/snow, other people's biggest concerns.

I'll have to give this a try until a more reasonable solution is found.

After about 6 months of using Reship, I have mixed feelings about it (but a bit more on the positive side). With Reship you can have anything shipped to Canada by choosing USPS/Canada Post, but the one big drawback is that they seem to take their time. No brokerage fees, but if you choose USPS priority mail (cheapest option) the delivery time is not predictable. Once Shapeways UPS drops it off at reship, it stays at their facility for a whole day (sometimes 2, but once I saw it sit there for 3 days). Then they ship it and it can sit in customs for about 2-3 days, plus a few days for delivery time. So overall, from time of ordering to receiving, it can take from 2.5 weeks to maybe a month.

They have USPS Global Express option (rarely in customs for over 2 days cus they need to move fast), but it can be about $35 - $55.

If your item(s) from shapeways total above $20 and want no brokerage fees, AND if time isn't that much of an issue, I'd definitely use reship.com for shipping to Canada.

Yeah, 2.5 weeks to a month is about what I expect when I get a US company to ship by USPS so that doesn't surprise me. But what about the cost? How much for regular USPS/Can Post. The cost for Global Express is way too high.

I am currently testing reship.com as well. The package left their facilities a few days ago and should be here in a few weeks.
Unlike Canada, here in Brazil, UPS charges their fees on every package. Besides that, there are federal and state taxes that I have to pay when importing through UPS, which add to over 100% of the product value. Yes, we pay a LOT of taxes around here.
If I import through normal mail (USPS), only the federal tax apply and it is "only" 60% , And packages are selected by sampling, which means that not all packages are taxed.

So I really don't mind a longer wait as I can save a lot when importing through USPS.

Yeah, 2.5 weeks to a month is about what I expect when I get a US company to ship by USPS so that doesn't surprise me. But what about the cost? How much for regular USPS/Can Post. The cost for Global Express is way too high.

Glenn

My last Reship was for a bunch of Christmas ornaments from Shapeways. They were in a small-medium size box and it USPS Priority cost was about $11 I think. Reship also charges a service fee of $5, so the total ended up being around $16. I would only use Reship of your order is like over $40. Otherwise the UPS COD charges may be cheaper than Reship costs.

Hmm~ Just after all the negativity I wanted to point out a few things when I got into this thread by chance:

- In europe UPS does a pretty solid job, and as far as I know the same counts for the US the majority of the time.
- Canada is a pretty small country when it gets to population* (smaller even than a country like spain)... not that that makes it 'ok' or anything to allow those customers to be treated badly, but my point is more that if the problems are *mostly* limited to you guys it would be an acceptable cost/trade.
- Getting to my last point, a close relative of mine has worked for various companies (for example warehouses) building the shipping integration with various postal services... and from what i heard from him it's a HUGE job. Purely on the technical side the first company for whom he had to do it expected it to take 1 or 2 months... and it ended up taking more than half a year to get the basis done. Every single postal service has different expectations and systems and their documentations tend to be one huge complex mess... so aside of any special deals they would supposedly have with UPS according to you guys... it's not as simple as you think to just slap on another postal service.

Oh well, in the end it all boils down to how much benefit they would get for the added costs of adding more postal services, and it seems that right now it's not worth it. Still... after reading this stuff I kinda hope that TNT Express won't be bought by UPS... though chances are they will

* Totally offtopic tip, check out this map to get a bit more of a fair worldview It's awesome xD

No, it's not just Canada, it's every place where UPS can charge you extra for the service of handling customs clearance, for example Brazil has been mentioned too. Any address where nobody is just behind the door, waiting, can be problematic too. Or away from urban areas.

A Switzerland case was reported when shipping was included in the material prices, and the person had to pay a lot because "the label must be wrong, zero shipping is impossible, so we will raise the number what we want and then tax everything" (no idea if/how it was solved). If EU wouldn't have free trade, it would be in the same boat than everyone except USA. So UPS just has to be happy with charging more for crossing weak frontiers (use the map you posted, NY to Oregon $6.50, NL to Germany, $9.50) or whatever other excuse they can find. And Russia is even worse, no shipping (unless you use a company address?). PO boxes are not supported at all.

So pretty understable that people complains. Shipping quality should look beyond the initial price. Population size should not matter as much as sales forecast and viability of keep on trading.

It's also about more than just the bottom line profit margin. It's about serving your customers. Are you correct in saying that Canada has a lower population per area than a lot of other countries? Absolutely, but you know what, I'm Shapeways' customer, and the number one rule of any business is serve your customer. I go all-out for my customers no matter what job I'm in or what the situation because that's how it works. Refusing to serve your customers properly because it's not as profitable as you like is just plain bad business.

First of all, let me be clear that I wasn't trying to say that the current situations is good, as I said "not that that makes it 'ok' or anything to allow those customers to be treated badly, but my point is more that if the problems are *mostly* limited to you guys it would be an acceptable cost/trade."... Either way, I am absolutely a proponent of other shipping options, personally I think the current shipping rates are great, but I was just trying to show a bit of the other side of the coin, as this thread was far too one sided. Take the last comment by "PeregrineStudios", if you really would do what you say you do, than a single client who keeps on complaining would ruin your entire business. That's just not how life works, good businesses still have people complaining, the trick is in treating them well (for example by Shapeways people actually reading this thread and replying to it) and trying to look for improvements whenever possible if it is worth the cost (which seems to be the case for Shapeways as well)... going 'all-out' for every single customer would not be an option, as that would for example mean they would ship it by hand with another postal service because you don't like UPS in which case they wouldn't have manpower left to man the machines.

I'm not saying they should go 'all-out' for us and have our packages hand-delivered to us by Shapeways elves who recite an epic poem upon delivery (although if you need ideas, Shapeways, feel free to use that one). But I am saying that customer service is a priority - or should be - and as it stands I don't feel I'm receiving adequate customer service in the area of shipping. There are some other areas where Shapeways' customer service is completely fantastic, but this is most definitely not one of them... yet. But they've promised to look into it, and that's good enough for now.

Looking back over your post, my only real objections are both to your implication (you didn't say as such, but it was definitely implied) that the Canadian market just doesn't matter as much, or is less important. Which I object to strenuously; I'm sick and tired of getting the short end of the stick because I'm not in the U.S. and frankly, won't stand for it.

The other thing you mentioned was that this topic has been very one-sided - which I also object to, since that implies that we are in some way being unfair to ask for reasonable shipping options. Being forced to use a reshipping agent is a bandaid solution that should not be looked at as an actual alternative - it's a temporary measure to fix a greater problem that must be addressed in full, and soon.

I realize it's not possible to please and delight every customer, and I know I haven't done that. But it's very possible to try as hard as you can to do so, and I definitely do that. All I ask is that other business do the same for me when the situation is reversed. I know that Shapeways is trying - looking into the problem - and that's sufficient for the moment.