Obviously it is situational, but what do you see yourselves favoring as far as primary cast once in Tier 15 4 piece (DL vs FoL)? Keeping a few 3 HoPo EF rolling and having the quicker cast Flash of Light is probably the stronger rotation considering mana consumption is becoming less of an issue. I see Divine Light use occurring only when Infusion of Light is up or a single target is taking large damage.

Typically I cast Radiance. If there's tank damage, Divine Light. If not, but you want HP, at least Radiance will both stack and refresh bubbles on more of the raid.

Mageara is a prime candidate for EF blanketing. You want to pre-emptively start rolling hots and creating bubbles prior to the big burst as well as trickeling hots to the tank to smooth out spike damage during tanking and spank phase. This will amount to a lot of overhealing but I don't understand the huge concern about it. If you aren't running oom, why does it matter? If you do it to simply pad meters, then ya, scumbag healer but the benefits of pre-emptive healing far outweigh the "fear" of overhealing. Ji-Kuhn is a meh fight for blanketing. It's nice during Quils and alright for the spikey tank damage at times but I'll agree that it isn't the best fight for it.

I don't agree. I think the raid wide burst during Rampage isn't going to be smoothed out by just EF blanketing, especially not in a 25m setting because quite frankly you will never get enough EFs rolling on the raid to keep everyone up during that burst damage. You need burst healing to counter it.

I am pretty sure you are mistaking my posts as a "Never EF blanket" post when I never said that. I always weave EF blanketing in every fight somewhere (mostly low damage phases to do the exact things you yourself already mentioned), I just don't do it to the degree I did in tier 14. I believe many fights favor LoD for burst healing over relying on only EF blanketing. You also seem to think I am making some huge deal out of overhealing when I only mentioned overhealing in regards to the extra tics added to EF by getting to the breakpoint because more likely than not they will overheal in the current content. Yea, I understand that tics still refresh and add to your mastery shields when they overheal, but is that going to benefit me more than the 1700+ mastery I sacrificed for that breakpoint? I am not going to sacrifice that much mastery, a stat that benefits almost all my healing, to go for the EF breakpoint. If every fight was Garalon style and those extra tics would not consistently go to waste, I may consider it but not in ToT.

Not only that, but Durumu is huge. Because of the stutterstepping, it's either an instant heal or an infusion HR, it's nearly impossible for me to hardcast a 2.0 second HR. So the shorter cooldown means 1) less HR's are needed to get HP and heal the group, and 2) I have more chances at infusion procs which allow me to get HR's off if I need to - I think this is why it was mentioned as nearly "mandatory" for the fight.

We probably won't be hitting it soon, but I've been trying to get my guild to go back into T14 heroics (or even a 496 leg would do but obviously given the fight I'd like to lose as little ilvl as possible) for this reason.

Just wear that lfr T14, I killed durumu heroic with lfr shoulders and the other 3 items were from normal.

I don't agree. I think the raid wide burst during Rampage isn't going to be smoothed out by just EF blanketing, especially not in a 25m setting because quite frankly you will never get enough EFs rolling on the raid to keep everyone up during that burst damage. You need burst healing to counter it.

I am pretty sure you are mistaking my posts as a "Never EF blanket" post when I never said that. I always weave EF blanketing in every fight somewhere (mostly low damage phases to do the exact things you yourself already mentioned), I just don't do it to the degree I did in tier 14. I believe many fights favor LoD for burst healing over relying on only EF blanketing. You also seem to think I am making some huge deal out of overhealing when I only mentioned overhealing in regards to the extra tics added to EF by getting to the breakpoint because more likely than not they will overheal in the current content. Yea, I understand that tics still refresh and add to your mastery shields when they overheal, but is that going to benefit me more than the 1700+ mastery I sacrificed for that breakpoint? I am not going to sacrifice that much mastery, a stat that benefits almost all my healing, to go for the EF breakpoint. If every fight was Garalon style and those extra tics would not consistently go to waste, I may consider it but not in ToT.

Well, we agree to disagree we all have our own playstyles. We are a bit overstocked on healers so we occasionally rotate between 2-3 pallys, 2-3 priests, a monk and a shaman. The priests/shamans/monk handle heavy AOE while I snipe the lowbies with big single targets. It works for us and I generally still end up topping. But, again, just our raid comp and playstyle that will always differ from person to person.

I never mistakenly took your post as a "Do not EF blanket" post. I simply asked which fights do you see it not being optimal. I then proceeded to break down only the two fights that you mentioned in my own personal opinion. The overhealing comment was more so made in general then aimed at you. When you mentioned overhealing in the first place, it sparked my thoughts. I apologize for that seeming like it was aimed towards you. I wouldn't attempt the haste break point either. Too far off from reaching passively through stats on gear that you risk losing too much mastery for a single tick that will put up a tiny bubble.

Just wear that lfr T14, I killed durumu heroic with lfr shoulders and the other 3 items were from normal.

Luckily I still have 3 heroic T14 pieces that I have saved in my bank 2 of which are upgraded. I'd love to convince my guild to run Heroic Amber-Shaper (don't know if they ever feel like doing Sha again), otherwise I guess I have an LFR helm token sitting in my bank, which I kept there just in case...

Only problem is that you are wearing normal T14. You are potentially losing a ton of stats just from the ilvls alone. The T15 set bonuses are a bit lackluster in comparison but I don't know why you avoid them. The Lightning Emperor's Mantle and Lightning Emperor's Headguard both have mastery making them BiS over nontier which gives you the 2 piece by default. The chest lacks spirit so the Lei-Shen's Grounded Carapace is the most attractive in terms of a pure spirit build for max regen. But for a combination of regen/thorough put stats, I would go a different route.

Item upgrades will come back in 5.3 which doesn't seem too far down the road so if you can hold out till then, you will have your wish. Although, I don't believe that grabbing your H t14 4 piece is a walk in the park. It was only the last tier :P Sha and Empress will still pose a challenge and I think it will be hard to convince your guild to give up ToT progression to go back for a few pieces.

So imo, I wouldn't break the t14 set bonus until you can flip immediately to t15 4 piece. T14 can't last forever so we might as well get used to healing without it again.

I agree that it probably is not worth it to switch until you can go straight to 4 piece t15 but just from my own personal healing it probably isn't even worth it until full heroic t15 tier. Yes there are more stats but reduced holy shocks personally are invaluable. More HP, more free spells that don't affect mana. And two piece seems better for this tier already with cheaper HR. I seem to be HR more this tier than I did last. The T15 heroic 2p seems ok but the increased beacon healing seems lackluster at best. Personally I will probably keep my T14 4p and won't break until I can get atleast 2p tier H15 and even that may not be a guarantee until I try it out.

So what's the verdict on what our BiS trinkets are? A guildie said the one off Horridon and Lei-Shen are, but I have no idea how to theorycraft and want to see some actual numbers on it

There's probably nothing 100% conclusive, but it will likely be Horridon's and LIC. I think there's a good chance Heroic Spirits from H-Tsulong could stay on some people's BiS list for awhile since spirit is still a very attractive stat.

They need to just scrape the RPPM system. They need to stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Players like trinkets that are reliable not this new system they made in attempt to make trinkets more "fun".

Can anyone enlighten me as to why LIC is chosen as the second BiS trinket?
I see the choices you were wavering between were LIC and the stolen relic.

My breakdown of it is something along the lines of:
stolen relic(hc thunderforged): 1752 spirit = 1096 MP5 = 13.140 mana per min = 39420 per 3 min. A very strong regen
proc: Its RPPM is set on 3.The average amount of time needed for accumulating 6 charges is 100sec at 20.01% haste. (which most hpala won't have when stacking mastery). It shields for 66888 at 6 stacks, but yes will take almost 2 minutes to build up for a regular paladin, so honeslty underwhelming proc.

LIC(hc):
1656 int. this is a good high int, but that's pretty much what this trinket imp has to offer.
proc: RPPM set at 6. Which leaves us at roughly 50seconds at 20.01% haste. At 63294 (+ 125% of SpellPower), the proc is fairly strong and scales with spellpower to a roughly 100k heal with around 30k spellpower. However, the proc is unpredictable and often seems wasted(even though it is a smart heal) since it can proc when everyoene is at full health. Even in sutations where it actually heals it can feel "wasted" if it's still not a heavy dmg phase. So in my conclusion again a very underwhelming proc.

I'd like to suggest having the valor trinket: soothing talisman of the shado-pan
1467 int, bit lower than the heroic LIC, but still a pretty goood amount.
proc: 29805 mana every 3min.

so here's who I see it:
LIC is for obvious reasons the worst when it comes to regen. Under IDEAL conditions, it will however be the highest throughput, but more often than not, I believe the regen and int on the valor trinket will net a competative throughput and an added regen.

Stolen relic is unquestionably the best regen trinket, but with a shocking proc and no int, it lacks heavily in the throughput department.

valor trinket: you get a solid, reliable throughput through the int(and somewhat through the proc through regen), and you get an on demand mana regen. Though it can't compete with the stolen relic on regen, I'd still go with this trinket any day for the int.

Sidenote: I also do prefer spirit over the on demand mana proc, since it will be netting you regen constantly, whereas the on demand will not till you have lost 10%+ of your max mana, but this is not a dealbreaker in any way for me.

So this was my 2 cents on the secondary trinket choice. I'm not saying this is the allmighty truth, I'm saying this is my calculations and my lok on the trinkets, and juts asking for someone to explain to me why stolen relic or LIC beat the valor trinket.

First, why are you comparing a HC Thunderforged with a HC trinket? LIC can be HC Thunderforged as well correct? It is best to keep that variable a constant if you are comparing throughput to regen.

Second, the valor trinket on use is pretty underwhelming. 29k mana every 3 mins would be like 1 Holy Radiance/Divine Light and 1 Holy Light or 3 Holy Shocks over 18s? Doesn't seem like it would be worth losing the regen/throughput of either trinket drop.

Third, why isn't the Inscribed bag of Hydra-Spawn not included? While it is a bit underwhelming (seems as if almost all of our trinkets are) as well, the spirit is the same and you don't have that build up wait time on the proc. I'm not saying it is the definitive second option but an option nontheless.

Over the course of a very long fight, imo 10m+, I can see the valor trinket being alright. But when you move into the HC Thunderforged drops, you are just going to be sacrificing a lot of stats. ilvl upgrades in 5.3 may change some things but I dont know... I believe gearing is very meh for us this tier. I love the raid but a ton of gear without spirit, mediocre trinkets, and lackluster tier bonuses just make gearing not as exciting as the raid bosses themselves. Then again, it does add diversity and gives us a wide array of options especially taking secondary stats into consideration.

Second, the valor trinket on use is pretty underwhelming. 29k mana every 3 mins would be like 1 Holy Radiance/Divine Light and 1 Holy Light or 3 Holy Shocks over 18s? Doesn't seem like it would be worth losing the regen/throughput of either trinket drop.

Third, why isn't the Inscribed bag of Hydra-Spawn not included? While it is a bit underwhelming (seems as if almost all of our trinkets are) as well, the spirit is the same and you don't have that build up wait time on the proc. I'm not saying it is the definitive second option but an option nontheless.

Over the course of a very long fight, imo 10m+, I can see the valor trinket being alright. But when you move into the HC Thunderforged drops, you are just going to be sacrificing a lot of stats. ilvl upgrades in 5.3 may change some things but I dont know... I believe gearing is very meh for us this tier. I love the raid but a ton of gear without spirit, mediocre trinkets, and lackluster tier bonuses just make gearing not as exciting as the raid bosses themselves. Then again, it does add diversity and gives us a wide array of options especially taking secondary stats into consideration.

Alright, done rambling.

The valor trinket is actually really good, I forget the numbers but as I recall it beats everything but 2/2 H Spirits from T14. My main qualm with it is the fact that I have to pay attention to it and use it at the right time. Honestly I'm sacrificing that little bit of extra regen because I dont feel that the burden is worth it. On my priest, on the other hand, it lines up with shadowfiend anyway and is a no-brainer.

Hydra spawn is really bad, stolen relic is too though so idk. Agreed about gearing this tier. I have 3 non-set ilvl upgrades that I can't even wear because t14 is too strong. Trinkets are either bad or boring, gear looks awful.. good thing the fights are fun.

If you have the trinket from Horridon, and you're still having mana issues, using the shado-pan trinket might be good. If you're not having issues, LIC (if we're talking about the heroic version) will be higher healing throughput that the shado-pan trinket both because of the increased spirit and that the heal while it can suffer from half overhealing will still heal for around 2 or 2.5% of your total healing which is around as much as one of our paladin spells daybreak

First, why are you comparing a HC Thunderforged with a HC trinket? LIC can be HC Thunderforged as well correct? It is best to keep that variable a constant if you are comparing throughput to regen.

Second, the valor trinket on use is pretty underwhelming. 29k mana every 3 mins would be like 1 Holy Radiance/Divine Light and 1 Holy Light or 3 Holy Shocks over 18s? Doesn't seem like it would be worth losing the regen/throughput of either trinket drop.

Third, why isn't the Inscribed bag of Hydra-Spawn not included? While it is a bit underwhelming (seems as if almost all of our trinkets are) as well, the spirit is the same and you don't have that build up wait time on the proc. I'm not saying it is the definitive second option but an option nontheless.

Over the course of a very long fight, imo 10m+, I can see the valor trinket being alright. But when you move into the HC Thunderforged drops, you are just going to be sacrificing a lot of stats. ilvl upgrades in 5.3 may change some things but I dont know... I believe gearing is very meh for us this tier. I love the raid but a ton of gear without spirit, mediocre trinkets, and lackluster tier bonuses just make gearing not as exciting as the raid bosses themselves. Then again, it does add diversity and gives us a wide array of options especially taking secondary stats into consideration.

Alright, done rambling.

Very simply cos I couldn't find the numbers on the hc thunderforged Lei-Shen one :P
You say the 29k per 3min is underwhelming, and sure, when you put it like you do in terms on abilities I guess it doesn't seem like a lot, but in that case, neither does the 39k from primordius trinket, which is what you get from the spirit on it. All in all, I don't think 29 or 39 are underwhelming, for 1 item I think the boost is pretty good tbh, but ofc we can differ in oppinions on that.

The reason I didn't take the inscribed hydra bag, is simply cos I didn't see it mentioned in the original post, only that he changed from primordius to lei shen trinket, that's why I compared those 2 to the one I believe is better.
There is the consideration of fight length, to be sure... Like, in a 3, 6 or 9min fight, the valor trinket ofc shines at it's best, whereas on a 5min it loses out by spending 2mins on a CD without reaching another proc.

But yes I agree, I don't much care for our trinket options, other than horridons

---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 05:03 PM ----------

Originally Posted by monikasun88

If you have the trinket from Horridon, and you're still having mana issues, using the shado-pan trinket might be good. If you're not having issues, LIC (if we're talking about the heroic version) will be higher healing throughput that the shado-pan trinket both because of the increased spirit and that the heal while it can suffer from half overhealing will still heal for around 2 or 2.5% of your total healing which is around as much as one of our paladin spells daybreak