Jinns: Mohammed’s other OTHER invisible friends.

If you have already read the last post, then you know that jinns have made their Quranic debut. If you haven’t read the last post yet, whoops! I’m sorry for the spoiler. I’m an ass. But you keep coming back here, which makes you an ass, too. High five!

A couple of hours after I posted, I got an IM from a good friend asking, “People don’t actually believe that jinn shit, do they?” And then I got two emails basically asking the same thing. It might be worth discussing further, because, holy hell, the whole thing is just so ludicrous. If you’ve never really heard a jinn story before, you are in for a treat: I’m going to start by telling a jinn story from my own family!

I was really torn about discussing my family too much. It’s personal information that most people are probably not interested in. At the same time, though, my family indoctrinated me with Islam. They filled my head with all kinds of bullshit and it took me a long time to deprogram some of it. So fuck it. I’m dragging them out into the spotlight.

I think I should take a moment to confess that I do have some crazies in my family. You’ve probably already read about my borderline senile grandmother. There’s also my uncle who thinks his dreams are omens, and that he can use them to predict the future. I have another uncle who believes only in homeopathic medicine — he chews plant roots, drinks herbal potions, and constantly wonders why his back problems won’t go away. And a cousin who had the spirit of an old imam living in her closet, and another cousin who communicated with dead people through the Ouija board.

And then there’s my aunt who believes that she was once possessed by a jinn.

…ever wish you were adopted? I do. A lot. A lot lot.

Anyway, this story takes place in the 1960s. My aunt was 15 or 16 years old at the time. Her father had recently died, and she must have been going through a lot emotionally. She started dropping weight like crazy even though she ate normally. Her eyes got all crazy looking. She stopped sleeping, developed a fever that wouldn’t go away, and started losing hair. Then she started physically lashing out at people, scratching them with her nails and pulling at their hair, and she started talking to herself. In gibberish. Oh boy.

Her mom — yes, my grandmother who thought that the left hand is the hand of the devil — called the imam, and he told them that a jinn who lived in a tree had fallen in love with my aunt. This jinn jumped out of the tree and into my aunt, and the only way to get him out was to pray and read the Quran. The imam, being a man of God and all, agreed to boost their GodPower by praying and reading the Quran in my aunt’s bedroom (for a small fee, of course!).

So they did. They prayed and read the Quran over and over until she snapped out of it. Things suddenly went back to normal, and everyone thanked God and the imam. They even paid him extra to sacrifice a goat in God’s name (yes, people actually do that shit, too).

A couple of years later, my aunt was diagnosed with an overactive thyroid gland (hyperthyroidism). Here’s a list of symptoms that I found on a medical blog:

Gee, that sounds an awful lot like my aunt’s possession, doesn’t it? When I read about the link between hyperthyroidism and schizophrenia a few years ago, I immediately made the connection. I called my aunt to tell her about it. Did she change her mind about what happened now that science could explain it away? Hell no! She reacted in totally the opposite way of what I had imagined. She got mad at me and insisted that she had been possessed.

My aunt is no fundie, I assure you. She isn’t the burka-wearing, praying-5-times-a-day kind of Muslim you see on TV. Yet she really and truly believes that an invisible man made out of smokeless fire had jumped from his fucking tree house into her body, and that he was the one thrashing around trying to scratch people’s eyes out. She honestly believes that prayer and the Quran made him go away.

Why? Whhhhhhy?!

The Middle East, that’s why. Jinns were a part of Arab mythology long before Islam reared its butt-fugly head. They might even have been worshipped as gods by some pagan tribes. Mohammed stole the idea — I’m sensing a fucking pattern, here — but he puts his own special twist on the jinns. They were now created by God before man. And, like man, but unlike angels, God granted them free will. (Angels in Islam have no free will. They can’t sin and they can’t disobey God. God loves him a good Yes Man!)

One jinn named Iblis actually showed off this free will by refusing to bow before Adam. That’s right. Satan is not an angel, but a jinn. After that little stunt there, satan and his cronies get booted from heaven and officially become shaitan, which literally translates to “adversary.” He somehow manages to sneak past God and get back to heaven. Must have been God’s naptime. And he totally screws over Adam and Eve by tempting Adam to eat from the forbidden tree. Yup, Adam gets tempted by the devil, not Eve. Ha! Suck on that, The Bible. Don’t get too excited, though. Muslim women are basically fucked, regardless of who ate the apple.

That’s it. That’s why my family believes in jinns. A regional myth from thousands of years ago that got co-opted and turned into a religion by a deranged lunatic.

I have to admit, it makes for a decent story. If I hadn’t heard it, oh, 2,384,093,284,392 times already, I might be impressed. I might even buy the book and proudly put it on my bookshelf, right where it belongs: in between Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone and The Iliad. Two other books I really enjoyed but didn’t actually fucking accept as reality!

Holy shit, you guys, people believe this bullshit! People I know believe this bullshit! People I’m related to believe this bullshit!! Oh lawsie mercy, the room is spinning. I need to put my head between my knees and breathe into a paper bag. No, fuck it, I need to wear the fucking bag over my fucking head for the rest of my fucking life.

Do they have a support group for shit like this? Islam Anonymous or something?

65 Responses

Oh, that’s no worse than a lot of the crazy beliefs people have out there, though I definitely understand the “holy shit” (no kidding!) feeling. I’m lucky enough to have parents who only vaguely believe in God in that boring old “oh, there must be a god because the world is so complicated” sort of way, but hey, I know people who believe they’re eating the actual body of a zombie every Sunday.

musesusan, I never understood that one either. One minute, they’re eating a cracker, and the next, they’re cannibalizing the body of god? Buh?

Hey, Another Kafir, thank you, sir. That’s way, way too kind of you. When I check comments, your email address shows up, and I can’t help but notice you have a suspiciously desi / Indian sounding name. It’s not often I meet other desi atheists. Would love to get your story, if you feel up to sharing it.

Scott, I can’t say I’ve ever seen “Wishmaster,” but all I could think of was “Kazaam.” That movie where Shaq plays a genie who raps. …not that I watched that or anything.

Hi leatherdyke! The Quran and the Bible are really similar, but jinns and fallen angels are two different things in Quran. See, in Islam, angels do not have free will and cannot commit a sin — they can’t go against God. And jinns are described as this totally different species, separate from angels and men. I did just hear a rumor that jinn make a brief appearance in the Bible, too. Anyone able to confirm that for me? I’ll have to do a little more research on it.

Logic is not a very good ‘instrument of control’…seeing how it can be refuted and expanded and *understood*.

It is partly our gleeful lipsmacking belief in the ‘utterly ludicrous’ that upholds oppressive, ugly yet hugely popular ideologies like religion/islam …..its like we all get off on all things supernatural just so we can escape our own failures and inadequacies.

Lets face it, we (majority of God’s creation) LIKE to grovel, snivel, smirk……..Iblis apparently was ‘jinn enough’ to stand tall!

Growing up in a small Texas town, I can tell you that I have had many…. MANY encounters with people who felt as though they, or loved ones had been possessed by demons. I’ve always wondered why Christians would submit to the idea of demon possession, or even demon influence, when their god is supposed to be all-powerful. If I had devoted my life and mind to a god and that god allowed me to be possessed or influenced by demons, I’d tell him to fuck off and go to the other side, because obviously they’re much more powerful! lol.

As an example, my own mother felt as though demons were influencing our home one time (due to bad financial management.. yeah) and had our preacher come over with some of the elders to anoint the house with oil. They spent like 3 hours dabbing oil onto the door frames, bedposts, etc. As a child, I thought this was a good thing and it actually made me feel safer. As an adult, I think my mother and her friends were deluded whack-jobs!

I am not a kafir in the sense that I did not ever be a muslim, I am supposed to be a Hindu but I can not even say that I was born into a religion, because I was never really taught any religion. I have recently however, gotten curious about religions, i like them like i like history. But it is very depressing *the way* people have given themselves to the whole concept of religion and how much fear and false hope that exists.
Also pathetic is how superstition grips people, even if it is not endorsed by religion as such. Superstitions are basically made up by people who are craving for religion, this is nothing short of social psychiatric problem, they make you think that religions which are institutional superstitions are better.
Anyway, though I am an atheist I do not oppose religion or any particular religion as such. I only wish that the religions would become less absolutist and more tolerant in the truest sense, Islam sadly has a long way to getting there. I wish that people would take religion like any other claim which can be evaluated and accepted or rejected, instead of being super sentimental about it. Most of all individual liberty in these matters is the revolution that is yet to come, truth claims and hell fear can only make these worse.

GoingChurching, I’m with you. If I devote my time and energy to God, and he turns his back on me while demons take over my body, I’m switching teams. At least the other side is playing an active role in my life. Yiish.

Thanks MBChick! You chicks are doing a fab job over at your blog, too. Everyone should go read and laugh and ogle the cute color scheme.

Another Kafir, well said. It is depressing. But, at the same time, it cheers me up that at least we (the non-religious) are growing in number every day. It may take us a while to catch up, but we’ll get there.

Kafir Girl, I’m guessing the beasties you are referring to above are “nephilim”, the “sons of god” (plural!) mentioned in Genesis of the Bible and often identified with (fallen) angels, who sire half-human progeny (Wikipedia will elucidate). Not exactly jinns and they only get mentioned once.

You funny! I was raised a Christian and drifted away after discovering most of reason and the world elsewhere. Lately I have thought a bit more about why I left it behind, perhaps wasting part of every Sunday for 20 years instead of playing like my more fortunate irreligious friends had something to do with it! That and trying to talk to a magic man in the sky who wasn’t there.

I recently read “Why I Am Not a Muslim” by Ibn Warraq, which I found illuminating, although not the best book of its type. You have more humour and more rude words, which as we all know is the key.

My Dad is still a Christian and I share an office with a devout (and nice) Bangladeshi Muslim. I don’t like offending either of them, and as I type this my Muslim friend is sitting just behind me – that raises the pulse rate. However, they both believe bullshit, they’re just not homicidal about it.

Keep reading, you’re definitely saving me the effort! Atheists mostly believe in equality, we usually hate/dislike all religion equally. (Having said that, the Hindus do have some groovy-looking gods, I am a big fan of Ganesh – anyone with an elephant’s head and that many arms can’t be all bad.)

Hey Oz, thank you! It’s funny — you’d think I’d have all these horrendous, fundie Muslims all around me, but I don’t. Like you, the few religious people that I have around me are devout but nice. It could just be because I don’t bother with the whackjobs anymore. It’s funny, there is a lot of religious art that I genuinely love. Hindu art is fantastic. Some of the Hindu temples actually have really graphic sexual statues on the outside, which makes them way more fun to look at than old churches. But I would say that same about the amazing tilework and calligraphy (and calligraphy tilework) that came from Islam. Or Carravagio’s dark and incredible paintings. I think some people would say, look, so much beauty comes out of religion. I don’t know about that. I think beauty transcends religion.

…completely agree (about the beauty transcending religion bit). I also tend to think that people are decent and nice, despite religion and not becasue of it… but, dig deep enough, invariably religion rears its ugly head.

Actually, wanted to ask you for the source of Shaitan/Iblis being a Jinn and not a farishta bit…if you dont mind!

18:50. When We said to the angels: “Bow before Adam in adoration,” they all bowed but Iblis. He was one of the jinni and rebelled against his Lord’s command. And yet you take him and his offspring as your friends instead of Me, even though they are your enemies. How sad a substitute for the evil-doers!

But, hang on a sec, because you just uncovered yet another contradiction in the infallible book:

2:34. Remember, when We asked the angels to bow in homage to Adam, they all bowed but Iblis, who disdained and turned insolent, and so became a disbeliever.

38:73. Then the angels bowed before him in a body,
38.74. Except Iblis. He was filled with pride and turned an unbeliever.

All the angels, except Iblis. Now he’s an angel? And if that’s not confusing enough for you:

7:11. Verily We created you and gave you form and shape, and ordered the angels to bow before Adam in homage; and they all bowed but Iblis who was not among those who bowed.
7:12. “What prevented you” (said God), “from bowing (before Adam) at My bidding?” “I am better than him,” said he. “You created me from fire, and him from clay.”

Fire? I thought the angels are created from light, and the jinns are created from smokeless fire.

Hey kafir girl your article is a load of crap. I don’t usually respond to such articles but for some reason I wanted to respond to this one. You are using Quranic verses out of context and saying wrong things about Islam and the treatment Muslim women to deceive people. So I want to clear up a few things. First I’ll start off with the women issue. Women in Islam are treated with the highest honor and respect. They are our respected mothers, dear sisters, and our beloved wives. We don’t call our women whores, sluts, and bitches .In Islam women are equal in the eyes of Allah because Allah does not look at a person gender but rather at their deeds. Women have played a big role in Islam and they will be granted high ranks in paradise. The first person to accept Islam when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) brought the message was a woman. It was his wife Khadija. The first person to get martyred for Islam was not a man but a woman. Because of the help of women Islam has spread and they are highly respected for their efforts.
Now I will move on to the Quranic sentences you quoted about Iblis. First let me clear up who Iblis is. Iblis was in fact a jinn and he was a very pious jinn. It is said that there is no place on this earth that he has not prostrated to Allah. He was so pious that Allah made him the leader of the angels thus he became like an angel athough he is still a jinn. When Allah created Adam he wanted to test Iblis’s obidence so he asked all of the angels including Iblis who is the leader to prostrate. Iblis didn’t do it because he had pride. He said that Adam is made of clay and I am made of fire(because he is a jinn), the quality of fire is that when you light it on the ground it goes up and the quality of clay is that if you throw it up it comes to the ground. Therefore, he thought he was superior to Adam. His disobedience made Allah very angry and he was kicked out and made into Satan the cursed. But before he left he asked God to give him the power to lead Adam astray and Allah granted him the power because Allah likes to test his creation and the ultimate test for the humans is shaitan. That is why shaitan was allowed to enter heaven not because God was taking a nap. Allah is above naps. Sleeping is the quality of humans because they are weak. Allah says in the Quran that shaitan is your open enemy so beware. If you want to enter paradise do not fall into his trap. This life is a test for humans and shaitan is one of those hard obstacles that we need to overcome.
Now the last thing I want to point out is that jinns are for real but all the stories you hear about them maybe false because people have crazy imaginations. Jinns just don’t go around possessing people and making them do weird things. Jinns keep to themselves and rarely interfere with humans. Some jinns have joined the army of shaitan and deceive people while others are pious and God fearing. The stories you hear about jinns are almost always wrong because whenever something unusual happens that people can’t explain they want to blame the jinns. You can’t blame the misunderstandings of humans on Islam. Islam didn’t say your aunt was possessed your grandmother concluded it. I have some people in my family that say stories similar to yours but I don’t put too much thought to them.
Kafir Girl you seem like you have a lot of knowledge about Islam yet you want to twist it up so that you can deceive people. Why would you do that? Read the following verses of the Quran and fear Allah:
101. Then, when the Trumpet is blown, there will be no kinship among them that Day, nor will they ask of one another.
102. Then, those whose scales (of good deeds) are heavy, – these, they are the successful.
103. And those whose scales (of good deeds) are light, they are those who lose their ownselves, in Hell will they abide.
104. The Fire will burn their faces, and therein they will grin, with displaced lips (disfigured).
105. “Were not My Verses (this Qur’ân) recited to you, and then you used to deny them?”
106. They will say: “Our Lord! Our wretchedness overcame us, and we were (an) erring people.
107. “Our Lord! Bring us out of this; if ever we return (to evil), then indeed we shall be Zâlimûn: (polytheists, oppressors, unjust, and wrong-doers, etc.).”
108. He (Allâh) will say: “Remain you in it with ignominy! And speak you not to Me!”
109. Verily! There was a party of My slaves, who used to say: “Our Lord! We believe, so forgive us, and have mercy on us, for You are the Best of all who show mercy!”
110. But you took them for a laughingstock, so much so that they made you forget My Remembrance while you used to laugh at them!
111. Verily! I have rewarded them this Day for their patience, they are indeed the ones that are successful.
112. He (Allâh) will say: “What number of years did you stay on earth?”
113. They will say: “We stayed a day or part of a day. Ask of those who keep account.”
114. He (Allâh) will say: “You stayed not but a little, if you had only known!
115. “Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose), and that you would not be brought back to Us?”
116. So Exalted be Allâh, the True King, Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Lord of the Supreme Throne!
117. And whoever invokes (or worships), besides Allâh, any other ilâh (god), of whom he has no proof, then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely! Al-Kâfirûn (the disbelievers in Allâh and in the Oneness of Allâh, polytheists, pagans, idolaters, etc.) will not be successful.
118. And say (O Muhammad): “My Lord! Forgive and have mercy, for You are the Best of those who show mercy!”
(Surah muminoon # 23 chapter 18 verses 101-118 of the Holy Quran)
May Allah have mercy on you and guide you to the right path.

First I’ll start off with the women issue. Women in Islam are treated with the highest honor and respect. They are our respected mothers, dear sisters, and our beloved wives. We don’t call our women whores, sluts, and bitches .

That is such a gross generalization. SOME Muslim women are treated with the highest honor and respect. SOME are not. Just as some Muslims, in fact, DO call “their women” whores, sluts, and bitches. Just because you don’t do it does not give you a reason to assume all Muslims don’t do it.

For the record, I am not saying that ALL Muslim women are treated like shit. That would be a hasty generalization. I am saying that some women in Islam are treated like crap, and the justification for that ill treatment is found all over the Quran. And then I cite verses which support that argument.

In Islam women are equal in the eyes of Allah because Allah does not look at a person gender but rather at their deeds. Women have played a big role in Islam and they will be granted high ranks in paradise.

Do you have concrete evidence of this? Did Allah tell you this himself? Can you prove it? Can you prove it without relying on the hadith? I’ve already mentioned on here a few times that hadith are hearsay.

The first person to accept Islam when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) brought the message was a woman. It was his wife Khadija. The first person to get martyred for Islam was not a man but a woman. Because of the help of women Islam has spread and they are highly respected for their efforts.

I’m sorry, but how exactly does this prove that women are treated well in Islam? Yes, some women have helped spread Islam. That does not make ALL women highly respected, or hell, respected at all.

First let me clear up who Iblis is. Iblis was in fact a jinn and he was a very pious jinn. It is said that there is no place on this earth that he has not prostrated to Allah. He was so pious that Allah made him the leader of the angels thus he became like an angel athough he is still a jinn. When Allah created Adam he wanted to test Iblis’s obidence so he asked all of the angels including Iblis who is the leader to prostrate. Iblis didn’t do it because he had pride. He said that Adam is made of clay and I am made of fire(because he is a jinn), the quality of fire is that when you light it on the ground it goes up and the quality of clay is that if you throw it up it comes to the ground. Therefore, he thought he was superior to Adam. His disobedience made Allah very angry and he was kicked out and made into Satan the cursed. But before he left he asked God to give him the power to lead Adam astray and Allah granted him the power because Allah likes to test his creation and the ultimate test for the humans is shaitan.

What’s your source on this? The Quran? Because its not in the Quran I’m reading, and it certainly is not in the Quran’s I’m checking online to back up my version.

That is why shaitan was allowed to enter heaven not because God was taking a nap. Allah is above naps. Sleeping is the quality of humans because they are weak.

That would be a joke. It’s called sarcasm. I use it often.

Allah says in the Quran that shaitan is your open enemy so beware. If you want to enter paradise do not fall into his trap. This life is a test for humans and shaitan is one of those hard obstacles that we need to overcome.

a) I’m not really sure what your point is, as I do not believe in God, shaitan, paradise or hell. No amount of you telling me you believe in invisible things is going to convince me that those invisible things are there.
b) I don’t take kindly to people proselytizing on my site, and if you come back with more of it, you will be banned.

Now the last thing I want to point out is that jinns are for real but all the stories you hear about them maybe false because people have crazy imaginations. Jinns just don’t go around possessing people and making them do weird things. Jinns keep to themselves and rarely interfere with humans. Some jinns have joined the army of shaitan and deceive people while others are pious and God fearing. The stories you hear about jinns are almost always wrong because whenever something unusual happens that people can’t explain they want to blame the jinns. You can’t blame the misunderstandings of humans on Islam. Islam didn’t say your aunt was possessed your grandmother concluded it. I have some people in my family that say stories similar to yours but I don’t put too much thought to them.

But I agree with one thing you said: people do have crazy imaginations. That would be how religion was invented in the first place. You say that jinns are real, but do not offer any proof. Then you go on to say all these things jinns do and do not do, but again, no proof. Until someone can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that jinns do exist, I will continue to insist that they are a fairy tale and a legend. Until you can come up with a testable way to prove that jinns exist, none of what you say about them makes an ounce of difference.

You’re right about another thing: Islam didn’t say my aunt was possessed, my grandmother did. But I did start out that section by saying that she’s fucking crazy, so I expect her to believe crazy shit. Where did she get the jinns from, though? She didn’t invent them. They came from the Quran. And from legends and myths that she had heard about jinns. Legends and myths invented by other superstitious, religious Muslims. Jinns are a part of Islam — you said yourself you believe in them. Did I say ALL Muslims believe in things like jinn possessions? No. I told a story about my crazy grandmother, the messed up crap she was taught and genuinely believes, and the fact that my aunt is so indoctrinated with that same crap that she will choose the fantasy explanation over the medical one.

That being said, you state a lot of things in there that have no tangent evidence. You’re either regurgitating things that you were taught (the same as my grandmother and my aunt), or you have real, solid evidence that you’re not sharing. Which is it?

I do not fear Allah, because I do not believe he exists. I’m not sure why you’re quoting the Quran when you must surely have figured out by now that I think the book is entirely man-made. Again, refrain from preaching on this website, or you won’t be welcome back.

People totally believe in Jiins and jadoo, all. Now me, when I was sick after getting attacked in broad daylight- i got no mental health support. I got taken to a quack Egyptian doctor in Arabi country x and she said it was “waswas”, curable by prayer. When I told that on me third hajj I was standing in Medina outside the prophet’s masjid and had a sudden experience that everything that was happening was just con and a waste of time, i just became a apostate in about a milli second, saw so much stuff flashing in me head. Doctors told it was everything from electric pylon interfererce, to the heat, to shock at getting pushed over on Arafat and breaking me arm, to ‘possible trauma after what happened months before when i got attacked’ and then, finally- Jinn out to destroy me iman and steal me nafs. As a result I was scared to go into the bathroom, where the jiin lurk and was reduced to taking showers in me clothes. The jiin, yes, they are real, if you are mu’imiin.

@Muslim Boy
“Iblis was in fact a jinn and he was a very pious jinn. It is said that there is no place on this earth that he has not prostrated to Allah. He was so pious that Allah made him the leader of the angels thus he became like an angel athough he is still a jinn.”

Where is all this written in Quran? Are u the latest Prophet? Did Allah reveal these things to you by sending Gabriel?

and if u see in the above “Muslim boy”, similarities with ancient Jewish ideas in shaitan being the ‘arrogant’ angel and Islam which sees shaitan as refusing to make ruku’ to Allah after refusing to make some sort of deference to mankind then ure right, cos it’s all from the Tawrat anyhow bar some minor additions from Nestorian monks in the Hijaz and possibly even the Abyssinian Church, certainly the Jews of places like Khaybar. The bizarre thing is Muslims have no concept of their early history and seem incapable of histographical study, sadly.

Anand,
Allah, made the test as a test of free will which the jiin and free will is a whole other issue in Islam.
By the way there was a case in Egypt a few months ago where a jiin “seduced” a 17 year old girl and the family tried to take the said jiin to the court. In Pakistan u can pay anything from 5000 ruppees to 5 lakh to have a ‘fixer’ set u up with a jiin girlfreind.

If one reads the various ayats on Iblis’s alleged disobedience -ayats 30-34 of Chapter 2/15:28-29, it is clear that only angels were commanded to prostrate to Adam and not Jinns. If Iblis is considered an angel(the impression one gets from Chapters 2/15), then it would contradict with verse 18:50 which clearly says that Iblis is a Jinn. If Iblis is considered a Jinn, it will be clear that Allah’s punishment of Iblis is unjust because the command to prostrate applied to angels and not to Jinns. This question caused embarassment to Islamic theologians from early on. To resolve this embarassment, muslims and Islamic theologians invent stories not there in Quran itself as “muslim boy” did. Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of verses 2:30-34 is instructive:

“When Allah commanded the angels to prostrate before Adam, Iblis was included in this command. Although Iblis was not an angel, he was trying – and pretending – to imitate the angels’ behavior and deeds, and this is why he was also included in the command to the angels to prostrate before Adam. Satan was criticized for defying that command, as we will explain with detail, Allah willing, when we mention the Tafsir of Allah’s statement,

[إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ]

(Except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the Jinn; he disobeyed the command of his Lord.) (18:50)

Similarly, Muhammad bin Ishaq reported that Ibn `Abbas said, “Before he undertook the path of sin, Iblis was with the angels and was called `Azazil.’ He was among the residents of the earth and was one of the most active worshippers and knowledgeable persons among the angels. This fact caused him to be arrogant. Iblis was from a genus called Jinn.””

Thanks for providing the tafissir that nails down everything I just said with pin point accuracy. If it’s not Islamic- I won’t say it and apart from Al Qu’ran, u will always find me stuff backed up in the hadiths or in kalam or fiqh. You neglect however to make any historical linkages, which tafsiir never encourages, but which u have to do if u wish to analyze this from something other than a faith based position. Was it the business trips to Damascus on Khadija’s behalf, or the Jews of Khaibar or Yathrib, or simply the fact that Makkak was on a key trade route, the same one that took Christianity to Ethiopia and the Jews to Yemen. It’s not very hard to understand how all this happened, beyond the fact that Muslims themselves do of course acknolwedge that the Qu’ran is a restatement of the Tawrat and the Injiil- which is the least they can do, given the fact it’s episode 3 of the same patriarchal soap opera.

“By the way there was a case in Egypt a few months ago where a jiin “seduced” a 17 year old girl and the family tried to take the said jiin to the court. In Pakistan u can pay anything from 5000 ruppees to 5 lakh to have a ‘fixer’ set u up with a jiin girlfreind.”

My historical analysis of Islam is this. There is something about pre-Islamic Muhammad(i.e.pre-Prophethood Muhammad) which not many people seem to know/know very well. In fact, muslims do not seem to highlight this at all.

The Quraish rebuilt the Kaaba shrine. They had a quarrel about which tribe should be given the honour of lifting the sacred stone and put it back into the rebuilt shrine. A bloodbath was imminent. Muhammad resolved this crisis with his sagacity WITHOUT ANY DIVINE REVEALATION with his commonsense.
“he said, ‘Bring me a cloak’. When they had brought one, he placed the ruku [black stone] in it with his own hands, saying, ‘Let every group take hold of a part of the cloak.’ Then all of them lifted it together, and when they reached the spot, the apostle placed it in position with his own hands, and the building was continued over it.”

The above incident from Sira finds no mention in the Quran. It appears that this episode had a very deep imprint on Muhammad’s mind.He probably understood that religions were a load of crap.He understood the potential of religion and its impact on the minds of the people

Anand, I’ve read that the stone is still in the Kaaba. Which means 5 times a day, Muslims are turning towards the Kaaba and praying to a sacred stone that was worshiped by the pagans. All while condemning idolators to hell. WTF?

U see the tribal situation amongst the pagans and Muhammad averting the disaster and realising the impact religion has on people’s mind.

Now we proceed further . THE JEWS.A very prosperous and industrious people. Very proud that they had revealed religion and scriptures. A source of envy for pagan Muhammad. Usurious in money lending? So it appears.But all this did nothing to annoy Muhammad. Somethiog else annoyed him.

JEWs who were there in Arabia were probably not Israeli Jews but Arabs converted to Judaism (just as muslims of the sub-continent are not Arabs.Most of them are descended from hindu converts to Islam).

“Anand, I’ve read that the stone is still in the Kaaba. Which means 5 times a day, Muslims are turning towards the Kaaba and praying to a sacred stone that was worshiped by the pagans. All while condemning idolators to hell. WTF?”

Yes. But another thing. How can u turn towards/face Kaaba in a round earth? If it were a flat earth, it were possible.If Pakistani Hindu turns towards Kashi Shiva temple, I cant do that. It is not a flat earth. Turning towards Kaaba in a round earth is looking at the space. Correct me if I am wrong.

JEWs who were there in Arabia were probably not Israeli Jews but Arabs converted to Judaism (just as muslims of the sub-continent are not Arabs.Most of them are descended from hindu converts to Islam).

Arabian Jews used to call pagan Arabs
“ummis”(illiterates) as they ahd no scriptures to read.

Muhammad who was pissed off with this racist attitude of Jews turned back and called then “Children of Israel”.

Just as hindu nationalists pissed off by muslims calling them kafirs would call them “Son of Saudi Arabia”.

“Islam enjoins saying one’s prayers five times a day at particular hours and there are certain hours when prayers are forbidden.

The diurnal motion of the earth causes difference in the local time of the countries situated in different longitudes as a result of which there is a prayer time at every moment of the day and night in some places or other. Yet it is forbidden to say one’s prayers at sunrise, at 12 noon and at sunset. What is its significance? The sun rises at different hours at different places – earlier in eastern countries and later in the western countries. So when prayers are forbidden here it is not forbidden elsewhere at that particular moment. For instance, when the sun rises at Barishal, it is yet to rise in Calcutta and it had already risen in Chittagong a few minutes ago. Thus, when prayers are forbidden at Barishal, it is not forbidden in Calcutta or Chittagong. In that case, is there any sense in forbidding prayers at particular hours?

The same question applies to prescribed hours for prayers. Since every moment is a prayer time in some place or other what is the point in fixing certain hours for certain prayers?

There was a time when was supposed to be flat and stationary which would make the hour of clock at any given moment identical in all the countries or places of the world with no variation in local time. Probably this notion led to the prescribed prayer–schedule. But now it has been proved that the earth is a moving sphere. Let us now discuss the problems arising out of the erroneous notion.

Suppose after saying his afternoon prayer “Zohar” at half past one, a man started for Holly Mecca by plane from Chittagong flying at a speed of 3000 miles per hour. On reaching there he found that it was yet to be noon. Will he have to say the “Zohar” prayer once again when the appointed time for it comes?

If a plane flies west at a speed 1041.67 miles per hour, the sun will appear to be at rest as if it stood motionless at one place and the passengers will have no idea of the time of day – morning, noon or evening – by looking at the sun. In this circumstance, how will the passengers take care of their prayers and fasting?

It is only in the equatorial region of the earth that at certain times of the year the day and night are of equal or nearly equal duration. But the further north and south we travel from this region, the longer are the days or nights depending on the season of the year. In some countries near the arctic region days become so long in summer that soon after dusk the sun rises again with no night between evening and dawn. How will one say one’s Esha prayer there? ”

“In the arctic region about six months of continuous daytime is followed by a night lasting for six months. Since we get only one day and one night there it may be possible to say one’s prayers five times a year but how can one fast there for thirty days from dawn to dusk?”

Hey Anand, you’re ending up in my spam box because you’re posting too many comments at once. Will you do me a favor and just make one comment at a time? Even if it’s a really long comment? It’ll keep your comments from getting lost in the shuffle and it’ll make the thread a little easier to follow. Sorry if that’s a pain in the ass — I have no idea how to change up my spam settings. I’m not up with all the tech stuff.

Not only do the ayats and Hadiths say taht the earth is flat. They contemplate a fixed earth.
“It was said that “Nun” refers to A GREAT WHALE that rides on the currents of the waters of the great ocean AND ON ITS BACK IT CARRIES THE SEVEN EARTHS, as was stated by Imam Abu Jafar Ibn Jarir. Narrated by Ibn Bashar, narrated by Yahya, narrated by Sufyan Al-Thuri, narrated by Sulayman Al-Amash, narrated by Abu Thubian, narrated by Ibn Abbas who related, “The first thing that Allah created was the pen and He said to it ‘Write’. The pen asked, ‘What shall I write?’ Allah said, ‘Write (the) fate (of everything).’ So the pen wrote everything that shall be from that moment until judgment day.

Then Allah created the “Nun” and He caused steam to rise out of which the heavens were created AND THE EARTH WAS THEN LAID FLAT ON THE NUN’S BACK. Then the Nun became nervous and (as a result) the earth began to sway, but (Allah) fastened (the earth) with mountains lest the earth should move …”
Ibn Abu Nujaih stated that Ibrahim Ibn Abu Bakir was informed by Mujahid who said, “It was said that Nun is the great whale WHO IS UNDERNEATH THE SEVEN EARTHS.” Furthermore, Al-Baghawy – may Allah rest his soul – and a group of commentators stated that on the back of this whale there is a great rock whose thickness is greater than the width of the heavens and the earth and above this rock is A BULL THAT HAS FORTY THOUSAND HORNS. On the body of this bull are placed the seven earths and all that they contain, and Allah knows best.”

Anand, didn’t you say you was Hindu? Ure not practicing takiyyah on us are u, it’s just I don’t know any Hindus who would say – Allah rest his soul- after Al Bhagawiy.
Or are u taking stuff off of some Muslim site?

“Anand, didn’t you say you was Hindu? Ure not practicing takiyyah on us are u, it’s just I don’t know any Hindus who would say – Allah rest his soul- after Al Bhagawiy.
Or are u taking stuff off of some Muslim site?”

It is stuff from muslim site. U are correct. I wouldnt say Allah rest his soul.Morover, i am an atheist albeit from hindu family. I am not practising any takiyyah(deception) on u.

Yeah, I hate to say it, but I agree. I’m sure the links and the verses you posted would come in handy, and I appreciate it. But this isn’t about me reading what other people have written and then reiterating it. I’m trying to make sense of it on my own, and I look up hadith and other articles as I need to.

Plus, starting a bunch of side discussions and posting verses from chapters I haven’t even come to isn’t really leading to discussion or anything. For now I’m focusing on whatever chapter I’m currently on, and whatever chapters we’ve already covered. Plenty of time to talk about all those other things as we come across them.

I get what you’re trying to do, but lets slow down a little, huh? I know I can’t keep up, and I certainly don’t expect anyone else to, considering they may not know as much about the culture or religion as you or I might.

kafirgirl: I’m with you on the greatness of Arabic calligraphy and Islamic geometric art in ceramics etc. — which in no way implies I have any love of dogma. I have some books with beautiful reproductions, but I kind of have to hide them from my brother’s (Christian) family.

They claim not to be fundamentalists… But my brother was very suspicious of me recently. Why? In e-mail we discussed the recent (psuedo-)controversy over a scarf in a TV ad, and it was evident I know what a keffiyeh is.

OK, so I’ve heard of it. Then I must be like secretly a Muslim, therefore merely a step removed from being a terrorist? And yet Americans are always patting themselves on the back for how “advanced” they are; always you hear “we’re hated because of our freedoms” etc.

CWM, you can’t even admit to knowing what a keffiyeh is without being an undercover Muslim? Jeebux. That’s rough, dude(ette?). It’s hard to believe that knowing about another religion’s fashion or appreciating their art is “suspicious.”

KG … I read this tangential story on your relatives belief in jinns and it triggered multiple emotions. On one hand, it is sad and unfortunate that that people actually believe this stuff and let it guide and inform their lives. The belief in jinns strikes me as little more than a magnified version of the insanity in the belief of divine revelation in Mo/JeeBuz/Baal/[FillInYourDeity]. Of course your writeup of the skeleton in the family closet was, as usual, gut-busting funny, and I needed that. However, in the all the insanity I do see a silver lining, and the silver lining is you, KG. Your crystal clear thinking should be viewed as the improbable blossoming of a rose in the midst of an otherwise insane wasteland of antiquated belief. The scent of free thought never smelled so sweet.

Thanks, a4atheist. I do sometimes wonder how I ended up this way. I mean, my mom is one superstitious woman. She even did things to keep the “evil eye” off of us. Maybe it was the stupidity of it all. Seeing non-Muslim kids at school that didn’t keel over dead or get possessed by jinns.

Here’s the tragedy of the whole thing: I don’t want kids. And my uber-religious brother wants a hundred. Funny how that works out, huh?

Hahahaha, brilliant post. Your description of your family reminds me of mine. Nobody in my home is a pray 5 times a day, wear a burkha kind of person but yes, they do believe in jinns and they believe that their daughter has strayed from the path of a “good muslim” and hence has little to no decency or moral left. Don’t you love being stereotyped, as if god’s managed to corner the market on morality.

Anyhow, I live in Pakistan so this sort of point of view is far too common for me to bother arguing with most people about it anymore, but the interesting part is that these well educated, strong career women who raised a whole family almost by themselves (my dad wasn’t too great a contributor) still have the occasional maulana sahab to visit to “bless” our house. I happened to watch the man walk in one day and saw a jharoo (pakistani broom made of twigs bound together at the base) in his hand and walked out on the spot. All part of the ridiculousness of daily life around here.