Peter, this is the fermentation flavor I have been mentioning to you that has me perplexed. If I am not mistaken your extra long fermented dough tasted different than a wetter dough would have, right? Stronger and more like Beer. If you had used your dough a bit earlier I bet it would have taken on a plesent smell and taste of beer that I love, but can only achieve with low hydration doughs. Do you have any idea why the lower fermentation doughs taste different when taken to extreems?

november?

scott,

Originally I thought to just throw the mini dough balls away. But my curiosity got the better of me. I was especially curious to know what a long fermentation would produce in the way of flavors in the finished crust, especially since this was something that I couldn’t recall as having been tested by the members for a low-hydration cracker style dough. I was operating on the notion that a low-hydration dough would ferment a lot more slowly than a high-hydration dough (all else being equal) and tolerate a longer fermentation as a result without getting “off” flavors.

As I thought about it later, I came to the conclusion that it was quite likely a rate thing. If you go back to my last formulation that I posted in this thread, you will see that I used 1% IDY. That is at the level often used to make an “emergency” dough (typically with a higher hydration, however). Coupled with about two hours in the proofing box at 115-120 degrees F, that combination suggested that the dough would ferment at a faster rate and rise fairly quickly and be more amenable to rolling out using a rolling pin. The dough warming step was, after all, the linchpin to what I was doing to be able to get a low-hydration dough roll out easily. By contrast, when I made the “geriatric” doughs based on the Lehmann NY dough formulation, I used only 0.25% IDY and everything was kept as cold as possible. That particular combination resulted in pleasant crust flavor. It wasn’t until I got to about 23 days that the flavor profile went south and I got funky flavors.

So, I think that using an above average amount of yeast and high temperatures for the low-hydration dough, together with several days in the refrigerator, pushed the dough out on the fermentation curve too far and too fast, resulting in the “off” crust flavors in the finished crust. I am certain that had I used a shorter fermentation time, as by using less yeast or lower temperatures, the finished crust flavors would have been better and more normal, as you suggested. However, that might have resulted in a dough that would have been harder to roll out. I think cracker style doughs is one of those cases where it may be a good idea to use yeast to get more flavor. Since you are going to crush the dough and expel the gases anyway, you don’t really care about fermentation gases or a well developed gluten structure that can better contain the gases to help produce a good oven spring. So, what is really left as the purpose of the yeast at the end of the day is its flavor. You just have to select the proper amount of yeast to use and time everything right so that the dough doesn’t overferment.

I think cracker style doughs is one of those cases where it may be a good idea to use yeast to get more flavor. Since you are going to crush the dough and expel the gases anyway, you don’t really care about fermentation gases or a well developed gluten structure that can better contain the gases to help produce a good oven spring. So, what is really left as the purpose of the yeast at the end of the day is its flavor. You just have to select the proper amount of yeast to use and time everything right so that the dough doesn’t overferment.

I could not agree with you more on this point Peter. I think what appears to be trapped gas (as a product of fermentation) in the laminated crusts is actually due to trapped moisture between the layers. The bubbling effect seen in those crusts seem to be almost entirely technique and not the result of fermentation. A good example of this is the RT clone that you put fourth in another thread. The taste is practially "spot on" but the texture leaves something to be desired. From the experiments I have done using that recipe, I observed a very different result depending upon my technique. Same dough, totally different texture.

I think a point to consider is: when does the lamination (compression) occur in the set of processes? If you compress your dough before extended fermentation, wouldn't you expect a different dough then one which is compressed and baked after the fermentation(where you are competely degassing before baking). I don't think either one is correct...but I guarantee they will be different skins. If you laminate before extended fermentation, there is plenty of oven spring in some skins...these are the ones that are fabulous in my book...this is why we don't dock these skins....we would rather pop the few bubbles which occur and in reality the whole skin has some rise to it.John

Today, I decided to run a couple of tests to determine whether the steps of sifting the flour for a low-hydration cracker-style dough, as well as to autolyse the dough, both of which I have been doing most recently, were useful steps, or whether they could simply be discarded as being unnecessary. While I was at it, I also decided to try using another flour, in this case the Pillsbury unbleached all-purpose flour. For both tests, I used the identical dough formulation and I used my 14-cup Cuisinart food processor to prepare the dough balls. The water used to make both dough balls was water from the tap, not at around 130 degrees F as I used before. The major differences between the two test doughs, apart from some unavoidable processing steps, were the sifting of the flour and the use of the autolyse. After forming, both dough balls were subjected to a period of a little over two hours in my proofing box, at a temperature of about 105-115 degrees F. When each of the two dough balls was removed from the proofing box, it was rolled out using my standard heavy rolling pin.

For purposes of using the tool, I entered a nominal thickness factor of 0.07, which is what I have successfully used before. I wanted to make enough dough for a 14” pizza, so I entered a pizza size into the tool of 15”, allowing for an extra inch to facilitate making the final 14” size (with the extra inch being scrap). This time, I used a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%.

To prepare the first dough ball, I simply put all of the dry ingredients into my food processor. The flour was not sifted. The oil and water were then combined in my measuring cup and gradually added to the mixer bowl with the processor running. To incorporate the ingredients, I used the pulse feature for about 10 seconds and full speed for about 40-50 seconds more. I could see as the food processor was combining the ingredients that the dough was on the dry side and that it was not coagulating very much at all. I removed the ingredients from the processor bowl onto my work surface and, using a bench scraper to help gather the rather granular components of the dough together, I squeezed the dough ingredients into a dough ball. While everything held together, I could see that the dough ball was still on the dry side. I flattened the dough ball and could see that there were a lot of large cracks at the perimeter. I took this as an ominous sign since that suggested that I might have trouble rolling out the dough to full size even after spending time in the proofing box. In any event, I brushed the dough ball with a bit of oil and placed it in my thin-walled plastic container and then into the proofing box.

For the second dough ball, I used the steps as previously described in Reply 8. More specifically, I started by sifting the flour, which I then put into the bowl of my food processor, along with the IDY. I pulsed the flour and yeast for a couple of seconds to be sure that the yeast was uniformly dispersed in the flour. I then gradually added the water (tap water) while pulsing the processor. Once all of the water was added, I scraped down the sides of the processor bowl and let the mixture in the bowl rest (autolyse) for a period of 12 minutes. As previously described in earlier posts, the rest period was used, along with the sifting of the flour, to improve the hydration of the flour while at the same time reducing the total mix time and minimizing development of the gluten network.

After the 12-minute rest period, I added the salt, sugar and oil to the processor bowl in succession, pulsing the processor all the while. Once all of the ingredients were fully incorporated, I processed the ingredients by first pulsing them for about ten seconds and then running the processor at full speed for about 30 seconds. As I was doing this, I could see that the ingredients were coming together in the same way as previously described in earlier posts, with a noticeable sticking of the ingredients to form a dough with a coarse cornmeal texture. Also, I could see the dough ingredients moving from the sides of the bowl to the center. This did not happen with the first dough ball. At the end of the mix, the contents of the bowl were emptied onto my work surface to be formed into a ball. As before, I squeezed the ingredients together to form a ball, which was very easy to do. Unlike the first dough ball, this one was more normal, even after I flattened the dough ball to go into the container and then into the proofing box. There were few major cracks at the perimeter of the dough ball.

The two dough balls looked pretty much the same from the standpoint of photographs, so I have shown the rolled out skins in the first two photos below. As can be seen in the first photo, the first skin could not be easily rolled out anywhere close to full size. I would estimate that the portion of the skin out to where the edges become ragged was about 9”. And that was after about 7 minutes of rolling, when I gave up trying to roll the skin out any further. The second skin, shown in the second photo below, was rolled out to about 15”, in about 2 minutes. After using my cutter pan as a template to cut out a 14” skin, I dusted the skin with a small amount of bench flour, folded it into quarters, and encased it in plastic wrap. As shown in the third photo, that skin looks quite normal. Based on a finished dough weight of 10.05 ounces, I calculated that the thickness factor for the 14” skin was 0.065286. This is very much in line with my previous successful efforts making the cracker-style pizzas. The skin is now in the refrigerator. I hope to use that skin in a few days, at which time I will report on any results of note.

At this point, until I can perform more tests to confirm today’s results, I am inclined to stick with sifting the flour and using the autolyse rest period. They are easy steps to implement and they appear to have merit. However, it is possible that I might have been able to get better results with the first dough ball, although I am at a loss at this point to know what I would have done to get better results short of just adding more water.

In my last post, I did not say what I did with the dough skin that did not roll out properly. Rather than throw the skin away, and since I had tentatively concluded that the problem with the dough was most likely underhydration, I decided to see if I could salvage the skin and actually be able to make a pizza out of it. So, as part of the resurrection process, I put the skin back into my food processor and, at high speed, converted the skin back to a dough mass again. This time, however, I added an additional tablespoon of water. The added water helped since a good amount of the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl to the center this time, which had not occurred the first time around. I think that this is a tip that we should all file away when using a food processor to make a low-hydration dough. If a good part of the dough (low-hydration) doesn’t pull away from the sides of the bowl, there is a good chance that it is underhydrated.

After I gathered the bowl contents into a new dough ball, I put the dough ball into in my lightweight plastic container, brushed it with a bit of oil, and let the dough ferment at room temperature (71.5 degrees F) for about 22 hours. For the next hour and a half, I put the container into my proofing box. Because my kitchen temperature was on the cool side this morning and prevented my proofing box from reaching over 105 degrees F, I replaced the lamp in the proofing box with a standard 100-watt light bulb. That allowed me to raise the proofing box temperature range by over 40 degrees F. (That’s another useful tip for those with a proofing box like mine.) I adjusted the proofing box temperature to around 115 degrees F for purposes of warming the dough ball again (for the second time). Whereas the dough ball had not risen much over the roughly 22-hour period, it did rise by about 30% in the proofing box. And it was a bit soft. Based on prior experience, this told me that I should be able to roll the dough out quite easily. This turned out to be the case, although it took me a couple of more minutes than usual to get the dough ball rolled out to about 15”. The first photo below shows the rolled-out skin. From this skin, I used my dark, anodized 14” pizzatools.com cutter pan as a template to cut out a 14” skin. This skin weighed 10.50 ounces, from which I calculated a thickness factor of 0.07, which was a bit higher than normal.

From this point forward, the skin was used to make a pizza in the same way as I described for the previous pizzas in this thread: I docked the skin, pre-baked it in my 14” cutter pan, dressed the pre-baked skin (with defrosted slices of Stella low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella cheese, a basic 6-in-1 sauce with dried Italian oregano, a mix of sautéed and uncooked sliced mushrooms, and Hormel pepperoni slices), and then finished baking the dressed pizza. The oven temperature at all times was around 450 degrees F. The pre-bake time this go around was between 4 and 5 minutes, and the dressed pizza was baked for about 7 minutes on the lowest oven rack position, and for an additional two minutes on the uppermost oven rack position. A pleasant surprise was how well the Stella mozzarella cheese held up to the long oven bake. It did not break down and it did not turn brown prematurely. Unfortunately, I can no longer find the Stella mozzarella cheese where I live.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza. The pizza turned out fairly well under the circumstances, and tasted very good, but the crust, while definitely crackery, did not have the same degree of crispiness and flaky effects as most of my previous pizzas described in this thread. It’s hard to know what to make of the latest pizza. The dough went through so many transformations, plus it was warmed twice in my proofing box and rolled out twice. In addition, I was trying out a new flour (the Pillsbury all-purpose flour). I think the more direct course is the one to try, although I was able to establish that it is possible to resurrect a dough gone wrong. That’s another useful tidbit of information to add to my knowledge database.

Today I made a pizza using the folded dough skin shown in the last photo of Reply 103. That dough skin had spent about two days in the refrigerator. It was allowed to warm up at room temperature for about 2 hours before docking, pre-baking, dressing, and finishing the bake. The pre-bake was in my 14” cutter pan (lightly pre-oiled) for about 5 minutes at the lowest oven rack position, following which it was dressed and returned to the oven for another 7 minutes at the lowest oven rack position and 2 minutes at the topmost oven rack position, all at about 450 degrees F.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza turned out well, better than the one I made yesterday (shown in the last reply). However, the crust, while crackery in parts, especially at the rim, was more tender than crackery or crispy. I mention this only as a description for those who may prefer a less crackery or crispy characteristic. The pizza itself was very tasty and satisfying. For this pizza, I used a combination of slices of Stella low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella cheese and slices of Stella Provolone cheese, 6-in-1 sauce with dried Italian oregano, sausage (partially pre-cooked Johnsonville hot Italian sausage), and green pepper slices.

As previously noted, apart from testing the value of the concepts of sifting the flour and using an autolyse, I was also testing a new flour for the cracker style--an all-purpose flour. Although I knew from my reading that it was possible to use an all-purpose flour to make a cracker-style pizza, most of the dough recipes I had read for that style called for a higher protein flour. Also, from the posts I had read on the cracker-style, it seemed that a higher protein flour was preferred by many of our members. In using the all-purpose flour, I noticed that the pre-baking of the two crusts I made using that flour took longer to get the desired color than when I used the Harvest King flour. I can’t say that there was a lack of flavor in the all-purpose crusts. It has long been my view that the type of flour is less important for crusts that are thin, even soft thin crusts. There is less surface area in the mouth than a much thicker crust and if there are also a lot of toppings, which thin cracker crusts can fairly easily support, the flavor of the crust itself tends to get lost somewhat. It is the crispy and/or crackery quality that stands out. Having tested the all-purpose flour, I am inclined to stay with the Harvest King flour for now. It seems to be a solid choice for the cracker style. As previously noted, I also plan to stick with sifting the flour and using the autolyse.

Yesterday, I tried the new “dough warming” method again but this time using another dough formulation--the Lehmann Chicago cracker style dough formulation as presented at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_crackerstyle.php. I have been meaning for some time to try out that formulation to compare with my recent cracker crust experiments. In particular, I was anxious to see if that dough formulation would produce only a “cracker” type crust, as the title of the recipe suggests, or whether it would also produce a noticeable degree of crispiness. I also wanted to find out if the new dough warming method would be useful for that formulation, which I characterize as a medium-hydration dough but with added “wetness” because of a rather high fat content (12%).

In order to use the latest Lehmann dough formulation, I had to make a few modifications. First, I decided to use a nominal thickness factor of 0.09, for purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This was necessary because the instructions for the Lehmann dough formulation do not specify a pizza size and corresponding dough skin weight from which to calculate the thickness factor. Since this is a commercial dough formulation, pizza size and skin thickness are left to the user, who normally has a commercial sheeter/roller to roll out the dough into a sheet or ribbon and to cut out skins of the desired size and thickness, leaving behind some (recyclable) scrap. For purposes of using the dough calculating tool, I used a pizza size of 15” to make a skin of 14”, the size of my dark, anodized non-perforated pizzatools.com cutter pan (the one-inch difference represents scrap). Second, I substituted instant dry yeast (IDY) for compressed yeast, mainly for convenience since I do not have access to compressed yeast. Making this change necessitated making a minor change in the formula hydration, as noted below. Third, in the absence of the Lehmann dough formulation specifying a specific flour to use, I elected to use the Harvest King flour, which has worked out very well in my prior efforts. I did not sift the flour. Fourth, I used my cutter pan rather than a stone or screen/disk.

Following the instructions for making the dough (but adding the IDY to the flour), I ended up with a dough ball as shown in the first photo below. At that point, the dough ball was soft, moist and supple. It was allowed to ferment/rise at room temperature (70 degrees F) for a period of 5 hours, as called for by the instructions for the Lehmann recipe. During that time, the dough expanded, but mostly laterally to the sidewalls of the storage container. As noted in the dough formulation above, the amount of IDY is very small, so the expansion of the dough ball was quite slow. The dough then went directly into the refrigerator, for a period of about 24 hours.

As noted above, another major change was that I used the dough warming method. This method was used after I had removed the dough ball from the refrigerator after the 24-hour cold fermentation period. Before working with the dough ball, it was allowed to warm up for about two hours in my proofing box (at 115-120 degrees F), following which I rolled out the dough. In rolling out the dough, I used a multiple fold and re-roll method. This turned out to be harder than I thought it would be. Even though the dough was initially soft and moist and highly extensible, it toughened up as I tried to roll it out after folding it. To see if using a different rolling pin would help, I decided to switch from my heavy marble rolling pin to my lightweight French wood tapered rolling pin. I had read recently in a review by Cooks Illustrated that that type of rolling pin was considered very good for rolling out different types of dough, including pizza dough. That rolling pin, which is shown along with my regular rolling pin in the second photo below, turned out to be a significant improvement—significant enough for me to consider using with other cracker-style doughs. (For an inexpensive source of tapered rolling pins, see http://www.fantes.com/rolling_pins.htm#straight).

With the tapered rolling pin, I was able to fairly easily roll out the dough to a skin size of about 15”. From that skin, I used my cutter pan as a template to cut out a 14” skin. Based on a dough skin weight of 12.30 ounces, I calculated that the thickness factor of the skin was 0.0799073. After docking that skin on both sides, I placed the skin into my 14” cutter pan, which I had lightly pre-oiled with a light olive oil.

I decided that I would not pre-bake the skin this time but rather dress it and bake it in the usual manner. I used slices of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese followed by a 6-in-1 sauce with Italian dried oregano, and Hormel pepperoni slices and green pepper slices. The dressed pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position for about 11 minutes, in a preheated 475-degree F oven. It was then moved to the topmost oven position for about another minute.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza. The pizza was cracker-like but it was not particularly crispy. Rather, it was quite tender and reflected the rather high oil content (8%), plus the addition of more fat in the form of the butter (4%), resulting in a total fat content of close to 12% (when the water in butter is accounted for). In retrospect, to get a more crispy crust, I perhaps would have pre-baked the crust, much like I did with the high-fat dough skin for the Chicago-style Giordano clone that I made and reported on at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5045.msg50247.html#msg50247. Also, I think I would have dispensed with the folding and re-rolling process since my efforts along those lines did not produce much in the way of added crispiness in the finished crust. It is possible, however, that I just didn’t do the best job with the lamination method. So, it is not entirely clear whether the dough warming method contributes enough value to the process to warrant its use with the latest Lehmann dough formulation.

But, if one is interested in achieving a finished crust that is cracker-like and tender rather than crispy, the Lehmann Chicago-style cracker crust formulation should provide those particular characteristics. I might add, however, that as between the latest pizza and the Giordano clone mentioned above, I preferred the Giordano clone—in terms of crust characteristics (more crispy) and better flavor, even though the latest pizza used 4% butter.

Well I tried the higher hydration on my cracker crust tonite and must say I liked it better as did my wife. Mind you we both like the lower hydration just fine too. The only thing I changed from the recipe was going to 60% hydration leaving all other things the same. Proofed on the counter for what ended up being 30 hours and just hand stretched not using the rolling pin at all. Oiled both sides with olive oil, and placed on a piece of heavy duty foil and docked the top of the dough. Par-baked for about 5-6 minutes at 550 degrees on my Fibrament stone and put in the garage to cool (didn't take long up here in MN). Turned the oven down to 450 when it was done par-baking. Topped with italian sausage, pepperoni, cumbled bacon, onions, mushrooms and gr peppers. At the end I put a few tomato slices and some fresh grated asiago cheese and back in the oven for a few more minutes with the convection turned on. This dough handled very well (might go with a little less hydration next time) and ended up very crisp with a real nice chew to it also. After it sat for 30 minutes or so as it cooled the crust did soften slightly on the bottom but re-heated in a skillet will bring the leftovers right back to being crispy tomorrow. All and all very happy with the outcome. I agree with what has been mentioned before that along with the countertop proofing the par-baking is key to getting that crackery crispness and with the higher hydration along with it being easier to use, for my tastes I really liked that extra chewiness that came with it. Also as a side note for Pete, you had mentioned that you have a hard time finding Stella cheese, if you have a Sam's Club near you try there. Just got a 5# bag of Stella there (shredded) for about 12 bucks. I wanted the solid chunk/brick but the shredded was all that store had, I'll have to try a couple of the other stores as I have about 4 within 20-25 miles from me. Below is some pics of tonites pie.Merry Christmas,JonFlour (100%): Water (36%): IDY (1%): Salt (1.75%): Oil (3.5%): Sugar (1.2%): Total (143.45%):

Can you provide the inputs that you used in the dough calculating tool beyond the basic baker's percents, especially for the thickness factor, pizza size, and bowl residue? And what was the final skin size?

I was also wondering whether you saw a loss of crust coloring from your previous efforts? The bottom coloration looks fine but I couldn't quite tell about the top crust coloration from the photos. I ask this question because 1% IDY for a 30-hour room-temperature fermented high-hydration dough is a lot.

This is the exact recipe I used.Flour 350gWater 210gIDY 3.4gSalt 5.84Oil 11.7Sugar 4Total 584.94I hand stretched to 16"-16.5. I should have taken a picture of the dough after the room temp proofing. It had started to deflate but was still bubbly and gassy and had a very nice boozy smell to it. I was going to do the folding thing but went without that just to see how it would do with just the par-baking. I didn't use the calculator tool, just a tape measure to get it to fit on my stone right which is 16.5d X 21.5w X .75thick and pre-heated for 1.5 hours prior to baking. The dough had almost a rice krispy feel to it when pressing out by hand and making sure to leave the outside 1/2" or so perimeter un-pressed. The dough was not kneaded after coming out of the proofing container, just lightly floured as needed and pressed and stretched. When I mix the dough in my KA600 I started with the paddle and then went to the screw hook and mixed for what was a total of 3-4 minutes then kneaded by hand for about 1 minut til it formed a very nice satiny ball, oiled and covered. Thinking back it was actually about 26-28 hours that it proofed. When I par-baked I did get a rather large bubble in the middle of the skin that I popped with a fillet knife with othe nice bubbles that I gently pressed down before cooling in the garage. When cooled it was very crsip and could have been ballanced of a bottle top. Then it was topped and baked as described in my last post in a 450 degree oven. Hope this helps.Jon

Thanks for the additional information. That way, if someone wants to try out your recipe, they have all the information. Based on your dough weight of 584.94 grams (20.63 oz.) and a pizza size of 16"-16.5", I calculate a thickness factor of about 0.1026052 (for a 16" size) to 0.096481 (for a 16.5" size). Those thickness factor values can be entered into the dough calculating tool for those who may wish to make a smaller or larger size pizza but with essentially the same crust characteristics as your pizza.

BTW, if you use the same dough formulation but prepare the pizza in the usual manner, i.e., without docking the skin or pre-baking it, you should end up with a Lehmann NY style pizza with a bit of added tenderness to the finished crust. The 20.63 ounce dough ball is just about right for a 16" NY style. To be on the safe side, you might reduce the amount of IDY or shorten the room-temperature fermentation time (or do both).

It was interesting to compare your dough processing methods against those used by member fazzari (John), who has also been experimenting with high-hydration doughs for the cracker style. In his most recent experiment, he prepared his skins up front, using a rolling pin and multiple folding and re-rolling of the dough after a short period of room-temperature fermentation to form sheets from which to cut out the final skins (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5889.0.html). Those skins were then cold fermented until ready to be used. Using pre-prepared skins and cold fermentation are consistent with what John uses for his own skins in his pizzeria. As you know, he doesn't dock or pre-bake the skins, which would be impractical in a commercial operation but is something that the home pizza maker can tolerate. In fact, it is a very good method for home pizza makers in my opinion.

Fortunately, there is a Sam's Club that is close enough to where I live to be able to drive to it without spending more on gasoline to get there than what I might save by shopping there. I have not typically shopped at places like Sam's because I am not a "bulk" purchase type. I usually buy in small quantities, which may not make me a particularly good candidate for places like Sam's. Maybe next time I get something from Sam's to visit them on a trial basis I will take them up on their offer.

Considering that I originally opened this thread just to test out DKM's original recipe, I think that we have collectively done a pretty good job moving the ball down the field on the cracker/crispy style pizza. At some point, I plan to repeat DKM's original recipe using what I believe to be the thickness factor for his skins (larger than what I have been using), together with the dough warming method, to see what results I get from that experiment. I also want to determine whether a medium-hydration dough, such as the Lehmann baking soda cracker style dough formulation (or some variation of it) that I experimented with a while back, will benefit from the dough warming method. Both you and John have demonstrated that you don't need the dough warming method with a high-hydration cracker style dough.

Well I had been thinking about it anyway and John's post made up my mind. The balance between very crispy and the chewiness was great and ease of use was very nice too. You're right on the NY style if not par-baking, that's why I think docking, par-baking and room temp proofing all combine to get this type of crust. Also oiling the dough in a cutter pan or as I do with the heavy duty foil makes a huge difference, and yes commercially you would have to be set up to do all this efficiently in a restaurant. I won't be giving up on the low hydration but this higher hydration was a very nice surprise. Low hydr.: very crispy and almost brittle with a harder texture. High hydr: very crispy with more dense texture and chewiness, almost like a super crispy thin bagel. On the Sam's thing maybe someone you know could pick you some up. They also had Sugardale pepperoni in 5# bags for 11.47 and I froze them in 6oz bags. The Stella part skim or whole milk was 12.67 for a 5# bag. The also had BelGioioso for about 8.50 for 16oz, that's about 1/2 price from the local grocers in Hastings here, they usually have it for 8-9 bucks for 8oz.By the way 5875 posts, simply awesome and not just nonsense posts, you are a machine, one with lots of info. Keep up the great work as you fast approach your 6000th post....great job, all you guys.... Merry Christmas,Jon

Thank you for the nice words. And thank you and John (fazzari) and BTB for being such good troopers in trying out and experimenting with different dough formulations and methods and reporting on your results. It helps to have several hands on deck.

I plan soon to try a 12" version of your last dough formulation, so that I can better see what you have been talking about. I will use my pizza stone this time, along with the aluminum foil, just as you did.

I have found using the cutter pan to be almost ideal for my purposes since it reduces the need to preheat a pizza stone (all you need is about 12 minutes oven preheat), the cutter pan has very good heat transfer characteristics (especially if pre-oiled), the risks of misloading the pizza into the oven or dough sticking problems are virtually zero, and you can get a nice round professional looking pizza shape by conforming the skin to the shape of the cutter pan. I have also found that pre-baking skins (in my case in the cutter pan) reduces the overall time that the cheeses and toppings are exposed to the oven heat, reducing the likelihood of the cheeses breaking down or browning prematurely before the crust is done and keeping meat toppings like pepperoni slices from overcooking and releasing fats (usually orange in color) and adversely affecting the esthetics of the pizzas. Finally, I can also use the cutter pan as a template to cut out skins, or use a rolling pin to get a perfectly shaped skin by rolling a rolling pin across the cutting edges. About the only negative I can think of is the initially high price for a high quality cutter pan such as those sold by pizzatools.com. But the pan should last an awful long time if properly cared for (the pan doesn't require seasoning and needs only washing in soap and warm water) and in the long run will save someone a lot of money compared with buying cracker style pizzas from a pizza place.

Unless you tell me that you sifted the flour and/or used an autolyse or similar rest period, I will not either when I try your last dough formulation. It is quite possible that sifting the flour and using autolyse are useful only for the very low hydration doughs. I will be using the Harvest King flour.

Did not sift or autolyse. 3 things I like with using the foil is, #1 it keeps my stone looking very nice and keeps overflows in check, thus does't smoke things up and #2 I can put a fairly decent coat of olive oil on the skin without making a big mess of things, stick the foil to the oiled skin, flip and dock the top and oil again and slide it on the stone the the par-bake, #3, no sticking to the peel, slides right off and when the pizza is done, being everything is well oiled the foil slides right off, no muss, no fuss. I get the 18"X500' heavy duty food service foil at Sam's for about 18 bucks. I use it alot with my other hobby BBQ also. Use can hear the dough frying a couple minutes after hitting the hot stone.Jon

Jon, in your Reply #107 above you said you used 60% hydration in one part of your reply, but near the end you said 36% hydration or water when you listed the formulation at the end. I think you meant 60% there, but am not certain. I wonder if such a high hydration like 60% doesn't take it out of the realm of the cracker crust formulations.

I put down the formula as it originally was with the mention that the only thing I changed was the hydration, changing it to 60%. Should've changed the way I wrote, kinda confusing. And yes it does take the 'formula' out of the cracker crust range, but I think the results show that a cracker crust is more than just low hydration. On my next couple pies I will work the hydration down a bit maybe. I must say though I was extremely happy with the way this one turned out as was my wife. I told her I think I screwed up and this one will be a soft crust and she looked disappointed. But when cooled it was very crispy. I think many things play here, oiling (top and bottom), foil, docking the top, stone, par-bake and cooling in a fridge or in a 0 degree gargage before topping all contributed to a cracker crust and as mentioned ease of use with the high hydr is a definitely a plus. I am going to have to start cutting back on making pizza after my last Dr's visit. Cholesterol and triglycerides were a bit over the top. He did say that there's nothing wrong with making pizza....just have to feed it to someone else :-( I will still try to moderate my intake and make pies, and try to spend a little more time on the elliptical and treadmill to compensate. What's an addict to do?Jon

Over the past weekend I told a friend that I thought that I could take my standard Lehmann NY style dough and make a cracker crust version out of it. In fact, some time ago, when I was experimenting with another Lehmann cracker style dough formulation, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.0.html, I had several PM exchanges with member November on the subject of cracker style crusts. At the time, I was really a novitiate on that style and felt that I needed a better grasp and understanding of the principles involved. When I told November what typical hydration levels were for the several cracker-style dough formulations that I had analyzed up to that time, including the DKM and a few Lehmann cracker style dough formulations, he said that he thought that the hydration levels were too low. He suggested that one use a much higher hydration, of about 60%+, along with enough fat/oil (which most of the recipes satisfied), and pre-baking of the skins (docked). He added that if one did not pre-bake such high-hydration dough skins, it would be necessary to resort to some form of layering method, including the one that I had already used successfully in which I rolled out two separate thin skins, superimposed them, and rolled out the "lamination" to the desired size. All of this guidance preceded the evolution of the dough warming method as a way of overcoming the problems of rolling out very low hydration doughs and avoiding having to use a layering method. I filed away in my memory banks all that I learned from my exchanges with November, with the idea of actually taking a basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation at some point and modifying it (mainly to use more oil) to make a cracker style pizza. As it so happened, Jon and John beat me to the punch with their own high hydration versions.

BTB is correct insofar as what the usual hydration ranges are for cracker-style doughs. The hydration levels for low-hydration doughs hover in the mid-30% range (a good example being DKM's recipe). For medium-hydration doughs, they are around the mid-40% range, up to about 50% (a good example being Tom Lehmann's soda-based recipe). I can't recall seeing any cracker style dough formulation with a hydration of say, between 50-60%, but I am fairly certain that I would have remembered it because it would have been an anomaly and would have stuck out like a sore thumb. It was largely as a result of the input I got from November and Jon's and John's recent efforts using high-hydration doughs that I wanted to see if such high hydration doughs deserve a proper place in the pantheon of cracker-style doughs. I think I will have a better feel for that matter once I actually try Jon's dough formulation. I think I have started to better understand the different crust characteristics--such as crackery, crispy, flaky, crackery and crispy, and tender--that I am looking forward to what the characteristics are for the high-hydration crust I make.

Peter, looking forward to your opinion on the results of your pie. I too will try a couple more like this before titrating down the hydration just to make sure it wasn't just a fluke, and finding just where 'my' sweet spot lies with this cracker crust seeing we all have varying tastes for what we like. One other thing, after oiling the top I used a gloved hand (nitrile surgical glove) and took advantage of the doughs slippery surface and kind of went around the inside of the pie, smoothing out and making it more even taking note not to compress the out 1/2" edge. That's when I was feeling that 'rice krispy' like texture with the small air bubbles in the dough. I didn't press it totally flat and decompress it completely, just to even it out a bit. All these steps I took sounds like alot of goofing around but really onle takes a few minutes. And way easier than fooling with a ball o rubber like my last one.Jon

For purposes of using the dough calculating tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html), I used a nominal thickness factor of 0.095481. That’s the value I calculated from the dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size (around 16.5”) that Jon used. I also used a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%. Doing the latter, I ended up with a slightly larger dough ball weight but I simply scaled it back to the targeted value (10.8 oz.).

I prepared the dough in the normal manner: combined the IDY with the flour (unsifted Harvest King), dissolved the salt and sugar in the water (room temperature), added the IDY/flour mixture and mixed using the flat beater attachment at speed 1, and added the oil before the final knead, using the C-hook at speed 2 for about 4 minutes, and a final hand knead for about a minute. Using this sequence of steps, I ended up with a very nice dough ball, which is shown (without the flash) in the first photo below. The dough ball was allowed to ferment at room temperature (in a range of around 67-70 degrees F) for about 26 hours. During that time, the dough rose to better than double. It was very soft, pillowy, bubbly and delicate. In fact, when I lifted the dough container after about 15 hours of fermentation to examine the dough, the dough collapsed a bit. However, it recovered and rose again to pretty much fill the container. The dough at that stage is shown in the second photo below.

I opened up the dough to 12” in the manner as earlier described by Jon (it would have been just about impossible to roll it out with a rolling pin because the dough was so extensible). In my case, I stretched out the dough to 12” on my wooden peel, brushed the top of the stretched-out skin with oil, covered the skin with heavy aluminum foil, and, while pressing against the aluminum foil, flipped the peel over to expose the other side of the skin. I oiled that side with a brush and docked it, as is shown in the third photo below. I could feel the bubbles in the dough as I oiled the top of the skin. I pre-baked the skin for about 5-6 minutes on my pizza stone, which I had preheated for about an hour and a half at about 500-550 degrees F. There were no big bubbles in the pre-baked crust but a lot of small ones. The pre-baked skin looked pretty much like Jon's.

After cooling the pre-baked skin (in the garage, like Jon), I dressed the pizza and finished baking it on the pizza stone at 450 degrees F. To dress the pizza, I used a combination of slices of Best Choice (a house brand) low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese and Stella Provolone cheese (essentially the whole crust was covered with cheese slices), a 6-in-1 sauce (right out of the can) with dried Italian oregano, partially pre-cooked Johnsonville hot Italian sausage, Hormel pepperoni slice, diced raw green pepper, and slices of raw onion. It took about 7 minutes on the pizza stone (with the pizza still on the aluminum foil) followed by an additional 2 minutes at the topmost oven position to finish baking the pizza.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza. Overall, I found the pizza to be delicious. However, it was not particularly cracker-like in the sense of the other pizzas I have reported on in this thread. Rather, it was more a combination of a chewy, crispy and crunchy crust, with a fairly large rim, and with each mouthful seemingly having a different set of crust characteristics. To me, the pizza was like a combination of a NY style and a thin and crispy style. It occurred to me later that I was using an electric oven without a convection feature as used by Jon, so it is possible that I would have to modify some of the steps I used to bake my skin and pizza to get a more cracker-like effect or a greater degree of crispiness. One example that comes to mind is to stretch the dough out even thinner and possibly use a lower oven temperature and longer pre-bake time to pre-bake the skin, especially given the relatively high hydration (60%) of the dough. I don’t think it would be necessary to reduce the hydration of the dough. In fact, a high hydration is more conducive to producing a crispier crust. I saw no crust coloration issues. Both the top and bottom of the crust had nice coloration.