Easter has just past and not one single person refuted the book.Wow what a book.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 10 April 2012 at 7:50am

AHMED DEEDAT'S CRUCIFIXION THEORY

A Muslim Perspective from

MOHAMMED BANA

For many years Ahmed Deedat has been promoting a theory that Jesus Christ was indeed crucified but was taken down alive from the cross. This theory was first promoted in his booklet "Was Christ Crucified?" and has recently beenperpetuated in his new booklet "Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction?"We have often remarked that Mr Deedat has been promoting aQadiani theory, approved only by the Ahmadiyya Movement which has been declared a non-Muslim minority sect in Pakistan. His theory must be deplored by true Christians and Muslims alike. Readers will be interested to know that the same opinion has been expressed by MOHAMMED BANA of Durban. He says of Deedats theory:

Mr Deedat is fond of making lectures about other denominations but very seldom on Islam. He seems to have a fixed notion about Prophet Jesus' Crucifixion Theory. In his lectures he hardly gave the Islamic viewpoint or seldom the Christian viewpoint, thus confusing his audience. I believe he likes to make the Qadiyanis of this country very happy by mostly giving their viewpoint that Jesus after being put on the cross, swooned. Now why should Mr Deedat tell his audience that Jesus was put on the cross and he swooned because nowhere theQur'an speaks that Jesus was put on the crow and he swooned.Mr Deedat is the only person who can tell us whether he ispreachhig either the Christian doctrine, the Muslim doctrine or the Qadiani doctrine?" [MOHAMMED BANA, "Allegations Confirmed", p. 3]

Mohammed Bana has rightly endorsed our complaint that thecrucifixion booklets published by Mr Deedat are contrary tothe teaching of both the Bible and the Qur'an and should berejected by Christians and Muslims alike.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 April 2012 at 8:53am

Your post really made me laugh.

It seems to me that you have no idea what you are talking.

You just midlessly/blindly copied some material from anti-Islam site (most probably from anwering-islam or from articles of Gilchrist) without reading Honorable Deedat's actual books/arguments.

In 1986, the King Faisal Foundation awarded Honorable Ahmed Deedat, the King Faisal International Prize for SERVICE TO ISLAM, to a South African who is more or better known than many dignitaries in their own countries. This was the first time that this prestigious award has been awarded to a South African.

Now why should I or someone else listen to some unknown guy like muhammad Bana or bother to see what anti-Islam sites are spreading lies when I have direct access to Hon. Deedat's literature.

All Hon. Deedat's books, audio-video lectures and debates are available world-wide. And there are no copyrights on most of his literature.

A lot of people embraced Islam in the 80's and 90's after reading, listening and watching his video lectures and debates. A lot of muslims became preachers of Islam because obviously none of his arguments are against the Holy Quran. It is childish and foolish to even think that he would say anything contrary to the Holy Quran.

The whole Jihad of his propagation was to prove that the Holy Bible per se is not the Word of God and Holy Quranic view is right and Biblical view of Jesus Christ's crucifixion is actually cruci-fiction.

In order to prove fallacy of the Biblical view, he examines carefully the internal evidence of the Bible then raised intellectual and logical questions based on clearly evident contradictions found in the Biblical narrations. So in the process if he qoutes some verses from the Bible, does not mean that, Biblical verses/narrations are accepted as facts.

Muslims are told in the Holy Quran to ask for proof/evidence if they (christians/jews) are truthful. So in one of his books, Honorable Deedat says:

"In this treatise and others, we have used the Christians' own book of authority, the BIBLE, and his own logic, to refute his claims. This is the system which Allah Subha nahu Wa Ta'aala uses when reasoning with His creatures.

The Holy Qur'an commands the Muslim to demand from the Jews and the Christians their authority for their fanciful claims that "SALVATION" is exclusively their right.

It says: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful." (Holy Qur'an 2:111)

The Christian has already reproduced the Bible in over a thousand languages and broadcasts it to the four corners of the globe, terrifying the nations of the world to accept the "BLOOD OF THE LAMB", that Christ died for the sins of mankind, that he (Jesus) is the only saviour. All this is against the clear evidence of his own Holy Book.

We must free him (the Christian) from his illusions, and there is no better way than to use his own evidence, his own logic, to refute his claims." ( http://jamaat.net/stone/TheStone.html - http://jamaat.net/stone/TheStone.html )

The purpose of qouting Biblcal verses is nothing but to show and prove the fallacy of Christians' misunderstanding and misconceptions. And once it is proved that crucifixion was actually a fiction, then you have no other option but to accept the Holy Quranic view and that is : "THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM".

I have read and watched almost all of Honorable Deedat's video lectures+debates. There are atleast three major debates on the subject of Crucifixion, and they are with Dr. Robert Douglas (USA), Professor Floyd E. Clark (at Royal Albert Hall, U.K) and Bishop Wakefield (Canada) and in all these debates he proved that Christ (pbuh) did not die, based on Biblical internal evidence.

When I read your (sraphine) post, I laughed because your post makes no sense and you copied some misinformations from anti-Islamic, and bias site mindlessly by spamming the internet.

Honorable Deedat's literature certainly proves that:

- Bible per se is not the Word of God,

- Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not God,

- he never claimed to be God, and

- he did not die on the Cross.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 12 April 2012 at 5:22am

Your reply is very confusing. I suspect you haven't read Deedat's book and have no idea of what it contains, correct?

If you have read it, please provide us with a short 3 or 4 sentence summary of what the book claims. How do you explain the fact that his book contradicts the Koran, in particular verse 4:157?

When the writings of Deedat contradict the Koran, which source to you consider to be correct, Deedat or the Koran???

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 April 2012 at 10:33pm

When the writings of Deedat contradict the Koran

Show it to us.

I was Deedats student.stop being childish Grow up.

If you feel so strong about the debate let us debate the book,if you have the gall.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 May 2012 at 8:57pm

I have read and watched Br. Deedat on various topics and his evidence is pretty strong. I do not see anyone sucessfully debating against him. Like brother ice says, let us debate if any one have any proofs against him or his work.

Hasan

-------------39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 03 June 2012 at 11:05am

iec786 and honeto, what is your explaination of the following passage from the koran:

...and their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; and, verily, those who hold conflict­ing views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere con­jecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him: nay, God exalted him unto Himself... surah 4:157-158

Did a crucifixion take place? And, if it did, who was crucified if not Jesus?

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 06 June 2012 at 8:52am

Yes it did and Judas the traitor was crucified in the place Jesus.If you read the book you would have known this.Remember at the most critical juncture the Bible tells us that they all forsook him and fled.No one of his was there to witness what had happened.I strongly suggest you take time out and read the book.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 June 2012 at 1:20pm

Reepicheep,

to answer, the verse clearly says: " Surely, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him". And since the Quran did not mention any other person being crucified by name, we are not to speculate. Only Allah knows.

Love you,

Hasan

-------------39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 06 June 2012 at 3:38pm

So, Honeto, you believe that it was NOT Jesus who was put on the cross?

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 June 2012 at 1:13pm

Reepicheep,

I want to be clear, according to the Quran, God raised him (Jesus pbuh) up to Himself. For me the chapter is closed there. Who was put to the cross, we can discuss that since it was a common method for Romans to kill those condemned to death. So there were so many people who were cursified in those days. It will be hard to get to know each one of thems names. Only Allah knows.

Hasan

-------------39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 08 June 2012 at 7:42am

iec786 wrote: Judas the traitor was crucified in the place Jesus.If you read the book you would have known this... I strongly suggest you take time out and read the book.

Of course I've read the book. I would be quite the fool if I was to make claims about what was in the book, if I hadn't read it. Right?

Your recent comment causes me to repeat the comment I made on April 12 within this thread:

I suspect you haven't read Deedat's book and have no idea of what it contains, correct?

Deedat's book defends the "swoon" theory of the crucifixion, which states in brief:

Jesus was crucified on the cross.

He sufferred and became unconscious.

The Roman soldiers thought he was dead.

He was buried in a tomb.

Then his disciples came and resuscitated him.

I don't see how Deedat's theory can be reconciled with what is written in the koran. And Deedat certainly didn't accept the theory that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 08 June 2012 at 11:21pm

Originally posted by Reepicheep

iec786 wrote: Judas the traitor was crucified in the place Jesus.If you read the book you would have known this... I strongly suggest you take time out and read the book.

Of course I've read the book. I would be quite the fool if I was to make claims about what was in the book, if I hadn't read it. Right?

Your recent comment causes me to repeat the comment I made on April 12 within this thread:

I suspect you haven't read Deedat's book and have no idea of what it contains, correct?

Deedat's book defends the "swoon" theory of the crucifixion, which states in brief:

Jesus was crucified on the cross.

He sufferred and became unconscious.

The Roman soldiers thought he was dead.

He was buried in a tomb.

Then his disciples came and resuscitated him.

I don't see how Deedat's theory can be reconciled with what is written in the koran. And Deedat certainly didn't accept the theory that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus.

The Bible says all his disciples forsook him and fled.Does all mean all in your language?if yes then who seen who on the cross remember all those who swore to die for him forsook him and fled like cowards.

And Deedat certainly didn't accept the theory that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus.

Deedat never worked with theory he worked with facts.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 10 June 2012 at 5:08pm

iec786 wrote: Judas the traitor was crucified in the place Jesus.If you read the book you would have known this... I strongly suggest you take time out and read the book.

iec786 also wrote: Deedat never worked with theory he worked with facts.

You seem to be saying that Deedat was telling the truth when he claimed that it WAS Jesus who was arrested by the Romans, put on trial, sentenced to death, put on the cross, declared dead, put into the tomb, and later revived. Correct?

But, in your previous post, you stated that it wasn't Jesus but instead Judas who was crucified.

How can both these beliefs be true? They contradict each other.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 June 2012 at 1:17pm

I must address this as I have given it quite a lot of study.Here iec786 is asserting that, according to Islam, Judas was crucified in Jesus' place. How does he think this occurred... this substitution?I have had arguments with other Muslims who assert that there was a bar-Jesus that took Jesus' place on the cross, due to Roman error.Anyone who knows anything about Romans, and Roman history, and the Roman military and societal structure, knows that such an error would never happen. It would have cost the soldier his own life to allow such a mistake or substitution, to occur. Romans were not careless in their duties due to the cost to their own lives if they were. Romans were ruthless.

As far as witnesses at the cross, Mary the mother of Jesus was there, Mary Magdalene was there... many women were there... 'all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place'... and so was John whom Jesus gave charge to be as a son to Mary His mother, after His death."When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"

The disciples fled yes, at Jesus capture, but no where is there any statement as to whether or not they returned, to watch at a distance, the crucifixion. This matter is not addressed, except in as much as the above statement. We do not know which of them may have been there, aside from 'the disciple whom He loved', assumed to be John.

It is sensible to me to assume that they were there. Joseph of Arimathea("a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews") came to claim the body to bury it. How could the disciples not be there to witness the end of one they loved so much... to watch and see how He might be saved at the last minute.The greater testimony is in the crowd of witnesses who saw Jesus after His resurrection.

All these reports were never disputed during the time in which they were being written... during the time in which the witnesses would still have been living and well able to make dispute.

Addressing the topic of this thread it seems clear to me that Mr Deedat does indeed contradict the teaching of both the Bible and the Qur'an.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 June 2012 at 11:26pm

Deedat's book defends the "swoon" theory of the crucifixion, which states in brief:

Jesus was crucified on the cross.

He sufferred and became unconscious.

The Roman soldiers thought he was dead.

He was buried in a tomb.

Then his disciples came and resuscitated him.

I don't see how Deedat's theory can be reconciled with what is written in the koran. And Deedat certainly didn't accept the theory that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus.

[/QUOTE]

That swoon was in the Bible and that is what he was quoting the Bible not his own words.please do not put words in peoples mouth.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 June 2012 at 11:28pm

Originally posted by Reepicheep

iec786 wrote: Judas the traitor was crucified in the place Jesus.If you read the book you would have known this... I strongly suggest you take time out and read the book.

iec786 also wrote: Deedat never worked with theory he worked with facts.

You seem to be saying that Deedat was telling the truth when he claimed that it WAS Jesus who was arrested by the Romans, put on trial, sentenced to death, put on the cross, declared dead, put into the tomb, and later revived. Correct?

But, in your previous post, you stated that it wasn't Jesus but instead Judas who was crucified.

How can both these beliefs be true? They contradict each other.

Deedat did not claim the anything he was quoting what the Bible said jeez how do you read a book.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 12 June 2012 at 7:22am

Well, iec786, since you continue to make false claims about the contents of Deedat's book, I see little point in continuing this discussion.

The only muslim sect that considers the swoon theory to be true is the Ahmadiyyas. I've never understood why so many Sunni muslims consider Deedat to be a great scholar, when his writings not only contradict Sunni beliefs, they also contradict the koran.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 June 2012 at 11:33pm

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Well, iec786, since you continue to make false claims about the contents of Deedat's book, I see little point in continuing this discussion.

The only muslim sect that considers the swoon theory to be true is the Ahmadiyyas. I've never understood why so many Sunni muslims consider Deedat to be a great scholar, when his writings not only contradict Sunni beliefs, they also contradict the koran.

Let me tell you Islam has no sects? All these so called wanna be Muslims,claim to follow Islam the way they see it.Islam is One Allah and Muhammad is the final messenger.Quraan and the hadith.

iec786, since you continue to make false claims about the contents of Deedat's book

Such as?

The only muslim sect that considers the swoon theory to be true is the Ahmadiyyas. These are not in the fold of Islam.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 13 June 2012 at 8:27am

iec786 wrote: he only muslim sect that considers the swoon theory to be true is the Ahmadiyyas. These are not in the fold of Islam.

You say that Ahmadiyyas are outside the fold of Islam because they consider the swoon theory to be true. Deedat considers the swoon theory to be true. Therefore, I guess you consider Deedat to also be outside the fold of Islam? And if, as you claim, you consider yourself to be a student of Deedat, then I guess you consider yourself to be outside the fold of Islam, too?

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 June 2012 at 1:39pm

Deedat considers the swoon theory to be true.

He quoted the swoon theory from the Bible.He never accepted the swoon theory.

I guess you consider Deedat to also be outside the fold of Islam? And if, as you claim, you consider yourself to be a student of Deedat, then I guess you consider yourself to be outside the fold of Islam, too?

Lol you wish.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 June 2012 at 1:54pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I must address this as I have given it quite a lot of study.Here iec786 is asserting that, according to Islam, Judas was crucified in Jesus' place. How does he think this occurred... this substitution?

How did Jesus come in Mary's belly without a male intervention? dont you think that he would save Jesus who begged to be saved in the garden when he prayed.

I have had arguments with other Muslims who assert that there was a bar-Jesus that took Jesus' place on the cross, due to Roman error.Anyone who knows anything about Romans, and Roman history, and the Roman military and societal structure, knows that such an error would never happen. It would have cost the soldier his own life to allow such a mistake or substitution, to occur. Romans were not careless in their duties due to the cost to their own lives if they were. Romans were ruthless.

The Quraan says And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) ], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...

But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.

As far as witnesses at the cross, Mary the mother of Jesus was there, Mary Magdalene was there... many women were there... 'all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place'... and so was John whom Jesus gave charge to be as a son to Mary His mother, after His death."When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"The disciples fled yes, at Jesus capture, but no where is there any statement as to whether or not they returned, to watch at a distance, the crucifixion. This matter is not addressed, except in as much as the above statement. We do not know which of them may have been there, aside from 'the disciple whom He loved', assumed to be John. It is sensible to me to assume that they were there.

Joseph of Arimathea("a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews") came to claim the body to bury it. How could the disciples not be there to witness the end of one they loved so much... to watch and see how He might be saved at the last minute.The greater testimony is in the crowd of witnesses who saw Jesus after His resurrection.All these reports were never disputed during the time in which they were being written... during the time in which the witnesses would still have been living and well able to make dispute.

Addressing the topic of this thread it seems clear to me that Mr Deedat does indeed contradict the teaching of both the Bible and the Qur'an.

Well well well .

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 June 2012 at 1:49pm

Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart

I must address this as I have given it quite a lot of study.Here iec786 is asserting that, according to Islam, Judas was crucified in Jesus' place. How does he think this occurred... this substitution?

How did Jesus come in Mary's belly without a male intervention? dont you think that he would save Jesus who begged to be saved in the garden when he prayed.

I have had arguments with other Muslims who assert that there was a bar-Jesus that took Jesus' place on the cross, due to Roman error.Anyone who knows anything about Romans, and Roman history, and the Roman military and societal structure, knows that such an error would never happen. It would have cost the soldier his own life to allow such a mistake or substitution, to occur. Romans were not careless in their duties due to the cost to their own lives if they were. Romans were ruthless.

The Quraan says And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) ], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...

But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.

As far as witnesses at the cross, Mary the mother of Jesus was there, Mary Magdalene was there... many women were there... 'all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place'... and so was John whom Jesus gave charge to be as a son to Mary His mother, after His death."When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"The disciples fled yes, at Jesus capture, but no where is there any statement as to whether or not they returned, to watch at a distance, the crucifixion. This matter is not addressed, except in as much as the above statement. We do not know which of them may have been there, aside from 'the disciple whom He loved', assumed to be John. It is sensible to me to assume that they were there.

Joseph of Arimathea("a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews") came to claim the body to bury it. How could the disciples not be there to witness the end of one they loved so much... to watch and see how He might be saved at the last minute.The greater testimony is in the crowd of witnesses who saw Jesus after His resurrection.All these reports were never disputed during the time in which they were being written... during the time in which the witnesses would still have been living and well able to make dispute.

Addressing the topic of this thread it seems clear to me that Mr Deedat does indeed contradict the teaching of both the Bible and the Qur'an.

Well well well .

Why do you answer a question with a question?

Ok, yes, by God you think it was done... but this does not answer my question. How in your mind did it occur in human terms? Jesus who was well known, yet someone else was crucified in his place? You think God blinded all men that they could not see? You think God made another man to look like Jesus and deceive all the people... Roman soldiers, apostles, Pontius Pilate, everyday citizens? Is this what you believe?

The disciples ran away when Jesus was taken away to trial. There is nothing to say that they did not return to see the crucifixion. Evidently you did not read what I wrote. The incident was recorded in the telling by the people who were there to witness... by word of mouth, as all things were, and always have been.Why in your mind does running away mean a permanent condition. Obviously it was not a permanent condition or we would not have Christianity today.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 29 June 2012 at 12:44pm

The disciples ran away when Jesus was taken away to trial. There is nothing to say that they did not return to see the crucifixion.
In the upper room at the last supper Thomas was shocked why?did he see a goast or a spook?no he was shocked because they had heard he was dead and buried they had not seen anything.What did Jesus tell Thomas?put your fingers in my hand and my side and do not be faithless.Not one of them had seen Jesus they all ran with their tails between their legs my words.

Evidently you did not read what I wrote. The incident was recorded in the telling by the people who were there to witness... by word of mouth, as all things were, and always have been.
Not one of the so called writers of the books of the gospel of Mark,Matthew,Luke or John see or write an account of the death and Resurrection of Jesus.To be honest you do not even know who the writers of these four books are,they are totally anonymous books.

Why in your mind does running away mean a permanent condition. Obviously it was not a permanent condition or we would not have Christianity today.
To be honest you do not have Christianity.You see if you followed Jesus you would have been a Jew.In the lifetime of Jesus he did not preach Christianity nor did he here of Christianity.Jesus was a Jew his father was a Jew and his mother was a Jew he preached in a synagog not in a church.If you follow Jesus you would have been a Jew.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 01 July 2012 at 11:01pm

[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]Why do you answer a question with a question?Ok, yes, by God you think it was done... but this does not answer my question. How in your mind did it occur in human terms? Jesus who was well known, yet someone else was crucified in his place? You think God blinded all men that they could not see? You think God made another man to look like Jesus and deceive all the people... Roman soldiers, apostles, Pontius Pilate, everyday citizens? Is this what you believe?
Do you believe that God can do anything???do you believe God would protect Jesus who was so beloved to him?and Jesus fell on his face and prayed Oh my father let this cup pass by me not as my will but as thou will.Would God allow his beloved servant to be manhandled like an animal to please who???Do i believe Jesus was on the cross NO i believe it was someone else made to look like Jesus.Yes God can make several Jesus just by saying be.

The disciples ran away when Jesus was taken away to trial. There is nothing to say that they did not return to see the crucifixion. Evidently you did not read what I wrote. The incident was recorded in the telling by the people who were there to witness... by word of mouth, as all things were, and always have been.Why in your mind does running away mean a permanent condition. Obviously it was not a permanent condition or we would not have Christianity today.[/QUOTE]

I explained to you the Bible says ALL FORSOOK HIM AND FLED.I will leave you to explain.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 July 2012 at 8:14pm

Originally posted by iec786

Why in your mind does running away mean a permanent condition. Obviously it was not a permanent condition or we would not have Christianity today.
To be honest you do not have Christianity.You see if you followed Jesus you would have been a Jew.In the lifetime of Jesus he did not preach Christianity nor did he here of Christianity.Jesus was a Jew his father was a Jew and his mother was a Jew he preached in a synagog not in a church.If you follow Jesus you would have been a Jew.

It was at Antioch that the believers were first called Christians - Acts 11

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 July 2012 at 8:18pm

Originally posted by iec786

[/QUOTE]Why do you answer a question with a question?Ok, yes, by God you think it was done... but this does not answer my question. How in your mind did it occur in human terms? Jesus who was well known, yet someone else was crucified in his place? You think God blinded all men that they could not see? You think God made another man to look like Jesus and deceive all the people... Roman soldiers, apostles, Pontius Pilate, everyday citizens? Is this what you believe?
Do you believe that God can do anything???do you believe God would protect Jesus who was so beloved to him?and Jesus fell on his face and prayed Oh my father let this cup pass by me not as my will but as thou will.Would God allow his beloved servant to be manhandled like an animal to please who???Do i believe Jesus was on the cross NO i believe it was someone else made to look like Jesus.Yes God can make several Jesus just by saying be.
[/QUOTE]

A simple "Yes" would have sufficed. Now I know what you believe.I've been meaning to start a thread to know whether or not the qur'an speaks about the supernatural at all.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 10:01am

IEC786 wrote: ...Judas the traitor was crucified in the place Jesus. If you read the book you would have known this

I have, of course, read the book written by Deedat, and it says no such thing. But, it will be easy for you to prove me wrong. Please provide us with a quotation from Deedat's book where Deedat states that Judas was crucified in the place of Jesus.

Anyone who has read Deedat's book knows that he supports the "swoon" theory of the crucixion which states, among other things, that IT WAS JESUS AND NOT JUDAS who was crucified on the cross.

***************************

Honeto wrote: have read and watched Br. Deedat on various topics and his evidence is pretty strong. I do not see anyone sucessfully debating against him.

Honeto, like IEC786, you seem to consider Deedat to be a great muslim scholar. Since you have studied Deedat, on the topic of the crucifixion you presumably know that Deedat makes two main points:

1) Deedat claims that the koran is wrong when it states that Jesus wasn't crucified, and

2) Deedat claims that the account of Jesus' crucifixion as given in the gospels is essentially correct.

Since you claim to believe what Deedat wrote about the crucifixion, you apparently accept his claim that the koran is wrong when it states that Jesus wasn't crucified. Do you have an explanation for how this error made it into the koran? Are there any other verses in the koran which you reject as being false?

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 1:24am

Hi Repicheep,

Perhaps you have not read the book by the Late Ahmed Deedat Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction? Here is the book online. You should read it carefully and have a better understanding from the perspective of a Muslim about the Cruci-fiction.

Nur Ilahi wrote: Perhaps you have not read the book by the Late Ahmed Deedat Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction?

Yes, I have read the book. In fact, this thread is ABOUT that book (iec786 gave this thread the name CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED which is the title of chapter 19 of Deedat's book).

If you disagree with my comments in my earlier post, then it is perhaps you who haven't read the book. My comments on what Deedat believes are accurate.

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 8:58am

Does anybody else see the irony of "conjecture" showing up in 4:157?

This is the thread for it, many good examples so far ;)

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 12:47pm

Hi Webber,

Thanks for inviting more comments.
I had watched a video of Mr Deedat on the crucifixion and he said indeed that Jesus was on the cross, that He was taken down and put in the Sepulcher, --- and his subject was over the three days and three nights that Jesus was in the tomb. He was quite an interesting speaker, but he misquoted and misused the Scriptures.

I know that many have said that there is no blood sacrifices for atonement in the Quran, --- but there is something from the time of Moses that is very interesting. And these are some corresponding verses to Surah 4:153-157.

In both cases it speaks of a series of offenses of the Jews for which God commanded Moses to have the people offer a certain type of blood sacrifice. It begins with a trip down memory lane in Surah 2:
63. And (remember, O Children of Israel) when We made a covenant with you and caused the mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, that ye may ward off (evil).
64. Then, even after that, ye turned away, and if it had not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy ye had been among the losers.
65. And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath,
66. And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing.’

67. ‘And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
68. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded.
69. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow (some versions say, ‘fawn coloured,’ or ‘golden coloured’). Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.
70. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright.
71. (Moses) answered: ‘Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.’

71 Yusuf Ali: He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.

The interesting part is that Surah 2 is entitled “The Cow," which is taken from this ‘yellow heifer,’ in 67-71.

(More later)

Placid

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 3:34pm

Originally posted by Webber

Does anybody else see the irony of "conjecture" showing up in 4:157?

This is the thread for it, many good examples so far ;)

Yes.

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 4:15pm

Caringheart wrote: Addressing the topic of this thread it seems clear to me that Mr Deedat does indeed contradict the teaching of both the Bible and the Qur'an.

Webber wrote: Does anybody else see the irony of "conjecture" showing up in 4:157

Placid wrote: I had watched a video of Mr Deedat on the crucifixion and he said indeed that Jesus was on the cross

What I don't understand is how muslims can fail to see the obvious. I mean, it's obvious to the four of us that Deedat is contradicting what is stated in the koran. Why is it that so many muslims are incapable of seeing this contradiction (the only muslims who have a reason to accept the booklet "Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction" as being true are Ahmadiyya muslims, who believe that Jesus was crucified on the cross, recovered, and moved to India where he died of old age).

Within this thread, we have iec786, honeto, and Nur Ilahi all recommending the book Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction. My theory is that none of them have actually read the book, and what they are attracted to is the title (the title is meant to be offensive to Christians, so based upon that alone, many muslims like the book).

In the 11 years I have been posting on muslim forums, I can't recall EVER encountering a muslim poster who said anything negative about Deedat. This thread is a case in point: surely, iec786, honeto, and Nur Ilahi must realize by now that they were wrong to sing the praises of Deedat. Why don't they retract their comments about him?

*****************

I am hesitant to attribute anyone's misfortune to being a punishment sent by God, but in the case of Deedat I often wonder if that is the case. In 1996, Deedat was struck down by a stroke which left him unable to move, speak, or even swallow. And, that's the condition he remained in until he died over 9 years later. Perhaps this was Allah's way of giving Deedat the time to ponder the accuracy of his writings, which surely should be considered blasphemous by all muslims (other than Ahmadiyyas, of course).

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 11:59pm

Sixthly: What is the attitude of Shaykh Ahmed Deedat about the crucifixion and killing of the Messiah (peace be upon him)? There is no doubt in our minds that Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) denied that the Messiah was either crucified or killed. He did not go beyond what Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)]…”[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

a) Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: I do not expect anyone to ask me about my belief as a Muslim with regard to the crucifixion; what I believe is what the Qur’aan says, as stated clearly in verse 157 of Soorat al-Nisa’. Mas’alat Salb al-Maseeh bayna al-Haqeeqah wa’l-Iftira’ (p. 88), Dar al-Fadeelah. It should be noted that the so-called Ali al-Jawhari, who is the Arabic translator of the book mentioned above – as well as others – subscribed to the theory that the Messiah lost consciousness, which is what the Qadianis believe. And he defended it fiercely in his footnotes to the book, and he criticized the Muslims for not adopting this view, and he thought that it did not contradict what Allaah says in the Qur’aan.

b) Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: They did not crucify him or kill him, but it seemed to them that they had done so, but they did not crucify or kill the Messiah, because it is certain that they did not kill him. This is how the Muslims understand the confusion about the crucifixion and killing of the Messiah, which is that they did not kill him but this is what they thought and believed that they had done. Jesus – God, man or myth? (p. 112).

c) And he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The one who was crucified was another person who resembled him. The Gospel of Barnabas confirms the view which says that another person was killed instead of him on the cross. This is in accordance with our view, the Muslims. The confusion arose because they killed another person who resembled him. Jesus – God, man or myth? (p. 138) The Qadianis believe that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified, whereas we find the text in the Book of Allaah states that he was not. This is what Shaykh Ahmed Deedat said. If he disagreed with them about the crucifixion then how could he agree with them about the death or killing of the Messiah?!

d) At the beginning of the shaykh’s debate with Floyd Clark, which was entitled “Was Christ Crucified?”, the Shaykh stated his sound belief in the Messiah (peace be upon him) by quoting the verses from Soorat al-Nisa’, then he began to use their evidence to establish proof against them and prove their beliefs false. In that debate he said: As for the Muslims, the matter is settled: the Messiah was not killed or crucified. This is a point on which the Muslims do not disagree, but the Christians’ belief is based on an assumption, but they did not kill him for sure. And he said: We will prove that the Messiah did not die on the cross as the Christians claim because he was not crucified at all. That is from their books, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Say (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), Produce your proof” [al-Baqarah 2:111]. He said: Whatever the case, he was not killed or crucified, that is according to the Book of Allaah.

e) At the beginning of his debate with Robert Douglas, which was entitled “Crucifixion of Christ – true or false?” the Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) stated his belief in accordance with the Holy Qur’aan.

f) and he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This means that these people – i.e., the Jews – believe that Jesus claimed to be a Prophet, and they killed him to get rid of him, but Allaah told them that they had not killed him or crucified him, rather it appeared so to them. They did not kill him or crucify him but it seemed to them that they had done so, and they thought that they had done so, but they did not kill or crucify the Messiah. And he said: “but they killed him not” [al-Nisa’ 4:157] because it is certain that they did not kill him. This is how the Muslims clarify the confusion surrounding the crucifixion and killing of the Messiah, which is that they did not crucify him or kill him, but this is what they thought that they had done. This is what we Muslims believe. “Was Jesus a man, a god or a myth?” (p. 111, 112).

g) And he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Allaah says: “But Allaah raised him [‘Eesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself” [al-Nisa’ 4:158]. This means that the Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him) did not taste death, rather Allaah raised him up to Himself, and I believe that the Messiah will return before the Day of Resurrection. “Was Jesus a man, a god or a myth?” p. 118).

Conclusion: It is no wonder that Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) was accused by the kaafirs of being a Qadiani, as he views them all as being kaafirs. But what is strange is that jealous or ignorant people take some of the words of the shaykh and interpret them in the worst possible way, or at least they pick on phrases that are ambiguous. We have quoted many of his comments with regard to his religious beliefs, his attitude towards the Qadianis and his belief concerning the crucifixion of the Messiah (peace be upon him). Everyone who says otherwise, let him fear Allaah and realize that he is looking at ambiguous words and he should understand them in the light of other comments that are not ambiguous, or he should realize that the Shaykh may have said some things for the sake of argument or quoted some of his opponents’ statements so as to use them against them. We ask Allaah to have mercy on Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and to honour him and raise him in status. And Allaah knows best.

We ask Allaah to have mercy on Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and to honour him and raise him in status. And Allaah knows best.

Ameen Ya Rub Al'alameen.

جزاك الله خيرا

-------------الله

Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 5:04am

Originally posted by Reepicheep

In the 11 years I have been posting on muslim forums, I can't recall EVER encountering a muslim poster who said anything negative about Deedat.

In 11 years NOT EVEN ONE MUSLIM HAS EVER said anything negative about Deedat.

I wonder why. That's strange. Could it be? He never?! Really? He said that and no even one muslim? No really? But he didn't did he? No?

Reepicheep, you're a trouble maker I can tell.

-------------الله

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 9:13pm

Al Nisa adds his own opinion to the Quran, is it still God’s
Divine word?

A little challenge…

Find me a 4:157 that says Jesus didn’t die, if it says “They
killed him not” don’t bother, I’m looking for; Jesus didn’t die, will accept “Jesus
wasn’t killed”. Keep the “they” out
of it, and I’ll show you why.

Everybody does realize that Surah 4 is all about the Jews,
right? It’s about the Jews before 157, it’s about the Jews after 157, so who gets
to decide that 157 is all of a sudden not about the Jews?

Follow the logic of the context and the “they” in 157 is also about the Jews,
therefore…

“They” boasted that they killed Jesus. Which Jew nailed
Jesus to the cross, which Jew erected the cross, which Jew actually lifted a
finger to do anything more than scream at the Romans to do it? None.

Sure looked like it. They told everyone they did. They stood
around screaming for it, it happened, what more evidence would you want?

When you tell someone to do something and they do it, did you
do it? You could argue in a kinds sorta way and justify it by the results, but
did you actually do it? It’s quite simple… no.

There are still people that think the Jews killed Jesus, and
the Jews don’t mind if they do.

Pure and simple, 157 says the Jews did not kill Jesus. Does
it say He didn’t die? No, it doesn’t. Matter of fact Muslims have no idea what
happened except that whatever did happen, the Jews didn’t do it.

The rest is conjecture.Even Deedat done dat.

This is like two different arguments. The Christians say
Jesus died on a cross, and the Muslims say the Jews didn’t do it? Nah, the
Muslims try to say nobody did it. Proof?

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 5:24am

Originally posted by Webber

Proof?

The arabic is very simple and clear in those versus. No need to over analyse.

‎"وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ""And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them."

Not only did they not kill him, they didn't even crucify him. He wasn't even on the cross. I'm asking you,

To continue in Surah 2 after the sacrifice of the yellow heifer, 67-71:

This is a good discussion so let’s look at the next two verses.
--- Here the heavenly Voice is again speaking to the Jews:
72 Pickthall: ‘And remember when you slew a man and disagreed concerning it and God brought forth that which you were hiding.’
73. ‘And We said: Smite him with some of it. --- Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth His portents so that you may understand.’

72 Yusuf Ali: ‘Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves about the crime. But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.’
73 ‘So We said, “Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer).” Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.’

72 Shakir: And when you killed a man, then you disagreed with respect to that, and Allah was to bring forth that which you were going to hide.
73 ‘So We said, “Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow),” thus God brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs so that you may understand.’

In a footnote in Mr Pickthall’s translation, Maulana Muhammad Ali says these verses refer to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.
In his commentary below, Maulana says the Arabic word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it:

72 Sher Ali: And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and ALLAH, would bring to light what you were hiding.
73 ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’

Placid

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 8:01am

It is very simple and it doesn't take any analysis to see the "they" that the entire Surah is talking about are the Jews. You have a whole Ayat says the Jews did not kill Jesus. That's pretty much all it says unless you have another Ayat to back it up.

Take another look at the Ayat and tell me if it actually says (simple and clearly) that Jesus was never put on a cross. What you will see is that it appeared as if the Jews killed Him, but we now know they didn't.

Go back and read the challenge.

Once you have that figured out I can explain how nobody killed Jesus.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 8:58am

Rational: In 11 years NOT EVEN ONE MUSLIM HAS EVER said anything negative about Deedat.

Yes, that is correct. To the best of my recollection, I have never encountered a posting in a muslim forum where a muslim has said anything negative about Deedat.

Rational, I'm unsure from your comments whether you are a supporter or a critic of Deedat. Are you a critic? If you are willing to criticize him, then you would be the first example of a muslim I have encountered who was willing to do so.

(I have, of course, done google searches where I have encountered muslims who criticize Deedat. My first posting within this thread (post #3 overall) quotes one such muslim. But I repeat my claim that, in an ongoing discussion on a muslim forum (such as this thread) I have never encountered a muslim who was willing to criticize Deedat or his writings.)

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 7:03pm

Dear Webber,

If you read the Quran, you will understand the concept of God more thoroughly. The 99 names of Allah is being repeated and repeated in the Quran to show us His servants who is He is. Allahu Akbar - Allah The Greatest, Allah Ar-Rahman - Allah The Most Gracious, Allah Ar-Raheem - Allah The Most Merciful, Al-Aziz - The Mighty, Al-Muhaymin - ~The Protector and so on and so forth.

Now by bringing Jesus up to Him, Allah is applying all His attributes that He is Al-Aziz The Mighty and He is the Protector - Al-Muhaymin and He is Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful. Especially to His dear Prophet - Jesus Alaihissalam. He heard the supplication of Jesus because he is As-Samak - All Hearing. And if He were to exchange someone else for Jesus, He can do so because He is Al-Muqtadir - Most Powerful. And if it were Judas who were being crucified, it just shows that He is Al-Adl - Most Just and He is indeed Al-Aleem - All Knowing.

If you read the Quran, you will understand the concept of God more thoroughly. The 99 names of Allah is being repeated and repeated in the Quran to show us His servants who is He is. Allahu Akbar - Allah The Greatest, Allah Ar-Rahman - Allah The Most Gracious, Allah Ar-Raheem - Allah The Most Merciful, Al-Aziz - The Mighty, Al-Muhaymin - ~The Protector and so on and so forth.

Now by bringing Jesus up to Him, Allah is applying all His attributes that He is Al-Aziz The Mighty and He is the Protector - Al-Muhaymin and He is Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful. Especially to His dear Prophet - Jesus Alaihissalam. He heard the supplication of Jesus because he is As-Samak - All Hearing. And if He were to exchange someone else for Jesus, He can do so because He is Al-Muqtadir - Most Powerful. And if it were Judas who were being crucified, it just shows that He is Al-Adl - Most Just and He is indeed Al-Aleem - All Knowing.

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

You give good answers and are very pleasant.

Salaam,Caringheart

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 8:14pm

Hi Nur Ilahi,

Ascension is another thing I'll go over in time. I was working on one thing at a time here.

Have you come up with a more direct answer to 157 saying Jesus did not die? Jesus was not killed? Jesus was not crucified?

Other than "They" didn't do it?

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 10:17pm

You're waisting everyones time. Muslims can see you have your answer to your little challenge.. The ayeh is clear, it says they didn't crucify him and I asked you, how did he die then? But I know you won't answer. Sorry to burst your bubble but you haven't discovered anything [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="middle" /> Moving on...

Originally posted by Webber

It is very simple and it doesn't take any analysis to see the "they" that the entire Surah is talking about are the Jews. You have a whole Ayat says the Jews did not kill Jesus. That's pretty much all it says unless you have another Ayat to back it up.

Take another look at the Ayat and tell me if it actually says (simple and clearly) that Jesus was never put on a cross. What you will see is that it appeared as if the Jews killed Him, but we now know they didn't.

Go back and read the challenge.

Once you have that figured out I can explain how nobody killed Jesus.

Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 10:25pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Now by bringing Jesus up to Him, Allah is applying all His attributes that He is Al-Aziz The Mighty and He is the Protector - Al-Muhaymin and He is Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful. Especially to His dear Prophet - Jesus Alaihissalam. He heard the supplication of Jesus because he is As-Samak - All Hearing. And if He were to exchange someone else for Jesus, He can do so because He is Al-Muqtadir - Most Powerful. And if it were Judas who were being crucified, it just shows that He is Al-Adl - Most Just and He is indeed Al-Aleem - All Knowing.

Masha Allah wa Allaho Akbur

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 9:09am

Originally posted by Rational

You're waisting everyones time. Muslims can see you have your answer to your little challenge.. The ayeh is clear, it says they didn't crucify him and I asked you, how did he die then? But I know you won't answer. Sorry to burst your bubble but you haven't discovered anything [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="middle" /> Moving on...

Don't worry about my bubble. Of course I have an answer and it looks like you don't. Avoidance is as close as you're willing to get.

You are wrong, I will answer your question, problem is you won't answer mine. Actually I can answer it for you.

No. The Quran does not say, in 157, nor anywhere else that Jesus died at the hands of the Jews. Yes, the ayeh is very clear, the Jews did not kill Jesus. No mention of what anybody else did.

153 The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.

Note; The people of the scripture..."they" asked Moses, "they" took the calf, after evidence came to "them"

154 And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, "Enter the gate bowing humbly", and We said to them, "Do not transgress on the sabbath", and We took from them a solemn covenant.

Raised over "them", refusal of "their" covenant, We said to "them" x2, We took from "them" a solemn covenant.

155 And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

We cursed "them" for breaking, "their" disbelief, "their" killing of the prophets, Allah has sealed "them", so "they" believe not.

156 And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,

Again, cursed "them" for "their" slander.

We've already gone through the "theys" of 157. Allah is still talking about the same "they", the Jews since the time they were israelites.

158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

I like this ayat

159 And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

And Jesus will be a witness against "them".

160 For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many [people],

We made unlawful for "them", for "their" averting from the way of Allah...

161 And [for] their taking of usury while they had been forbidden from it, and their consuming of the people's wealth unjustly. And we have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

See where this is going? All about the Jews. No gentiles, no romans, no kafir. This is all about the Jews and right in the middle of all this Jew talk, they didn't kill Jesus.

Who hadithed the notion that the Jewish "they" became all non muslims?

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 7:06pm

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. An-Nisa - 147.

Hi Webber,
As a Muslim, we have to have Faith or Iman in the Quran. Whatever was written in the Quran was from Allah The Creator of the whole universe - My Creator as well as yours. We have faith that Jesus was not killed, Jesus was not crucified because it is clearly stated in the Quran.
Also most importantly, we believe in a God - Allah who is Most Merciful - Ar-Raheem, Most Powerful - Allahuakbar! If He could create the furthest of the planet, the tiniest of an atom, the brightest of the star, He would not have any problem in saving His beloved Prophet Jesus Alaihissalam.

See where this is going? All about the Jews. No gentiles, no romans, no kafir. This is all about the Jews and right in the middle of all this Jew talk, they didn't kill Jesus.
Who hadithed the notion that the Jewish "they" became all non muslims?

Do you mean, if it were not the Jews, then someone else other than the Jews like you said - Gentiles, Roman or Kafirs did the killing?

I have no doubt you have faith in the Quran, and if you notice I am not questioning the Quran but rather questioning the understanding of the Quran.

And they, (the Jews) did not kill him, for certain. I agree, but that is all that is clearly stated in 157.

Here's the confusion...

Please confirm, all the "theys" I pointed out from 153 to 161 with the exception of 157 is clearly speaking of the Jews, correct?

Somehow, in 157 "they" becomes "anybody/nobody". Am I missing something in the translation? How can one make such a literary shift and not notice it?

"Another was made to resemble him to them" is a transliteration. I didn't know the NIV did the Quran too.

If that is what you read there's no wonder you have one mind on this topic.

they were made to think that they did

but it appeared so unto them

but it appeared to them so

but so it was made to appear to them

but he was made to appear to them like one crucified

"but he was made to appear to them like one crucified" (Sherali) imho is possibly the most accurate. This is also in agreement with the Gospels although I doubt many Christians have thought much about it.

Rational asked me, then how did he die?

That was His last miracle.

Matt: And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Mark: And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed his last.

John: he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Luke: Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my
spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

Nobody killed Jesus. He gave up His spirit to God, and God took Him.

Left them looking at a dead body thinking they did it.

Just try giving up your spirit to God some time. No worries, it's safe. You don't have the authority to do so. It won't happen, you'll still be here.

It's a miracle so don't feel bad either.

This replacement theory is a high school play. God wouldn't bother. If He decided to take Jesus, He would, why the game? Just so someone else could die? So they'd stop looking for Jesus? What difference would it make, He's ascended, look all you like.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 5:16am

Well, it appears that all muslim posters within this thread continue to believe that Deedat was a great muslim scholar.

I thought I'd post some quotations I found on the web which show that, interestingly, Ahmadiyyas and Christians also like what Deedat wrote about the crucifixion:

The view of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad,the Promised Messiah and Mahdi, is that Jesus did not die during the Crucifixion, but survived the ordeal... Two modern Muslim scholars who have come out in support of the ‘swoon theory’ are Ahmed Deedat and Shabir Ally. Both these scholars do not accept the claims of the Ahmadiyyat Muslim community and Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, yet they both openly support the viewpoint that Jesus survived the Crucifixion,going against the prevalent orthodox Islamic belief. Arif Khan, an Ahmadiyya muslim living in the UK

Ahmad Deedat stated in his lectures and books that Jesus was placed on the cross but did not die on it: He only fainted. Every one knows how difficult it is to change the religious beliefs of one person, especially if these beliefs are deeply rooted and have been handed down, generation after generation. For 16 centuries Muslims have denied that Jesus was placed on the cross. It is a known fact that because of the untiring efforts of Ahmad Deedat, millions of Muslims now believe that Jesus was placed on the cross. Thus because of the efforts of the one man, Ahmad Deedat, millions of Muslims have changed their traditional views as to what happened to Jesus. - Anonymous Christian

I agree with the above two quotations, and I cannot understand how anyone who has read Crucifiction or Crucifixion can say otherwise. Since the muslims within this thread who continue to support Deedat do so (apparently) without having read his book, I think this discussion has gone about as far as it can.

I would like to remind all you muslim Deedat supporters that, on the day of judgement, you will have to explain to Allah WHY you were such strong Deedat supporters. Are you prepared to answer that question?

Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:01am

(To continue from the post on page 6.)

In a footnote in Mr Pickthall’s translation, Maulana Muhammad Ali says these verses 2:72-73 refer to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.
In his commentary below, Maulana says the Arabic word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it:

72 Sher Ali: And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and ALLAH, would bring to light what you were hiding.
73 ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’
--- (Here is the death and resurrection mentioned together in 2:72 and 73.)

--- It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ that was reduced to ashes hundreds of years before, --- so it has to mean ‘make a comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, to a comparable sacrifice in the time of Moses, to identify with the sacrifice of the ‘yellow heifer’. --- And we find such a sacrifice in Numbers 19:

1 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
2 “This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come.
3 You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him;
4 and Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood seven times directly in front of the tabernacle of meeting.
5 Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned.
6 And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer.
7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening.
8 And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening.
9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.

--- (This was to become a regular practice for ‘purification from sin’ for many offenses, --- but notice that the perfect heifer was neither a calf nor a mature cow, and was comparable to the heifer that they chose for sacrifice in 2:71. And being 'unblemished,' it signifies the purity of the sacrifice.

I am sorry to talk about blood, but this was part of the Jewish religious worship, to provide a suitable sacrifice for their sin. --- Normally the blood was drained out and after it was offered as an unblemished sacrifice, it was taken and prepared for food for the priests, and the extra was shared with the poor or needy so the meat was not wasted. --- However, in a whole burnt offering it was consumed completely.

--- In this special sacrifice, It is first slaughtered and drained of blood, --- and the Priest, Eleazar, was to dip his finger in some of the blood, then sprinkle it seven times in the direction of the Tabernacle.
This is again symbolic, as the blood represents a covering, --- and the blood had to be drained out of the body before it could be used this way.

Placid

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:14pm

Originally posted by Webber

I have no doubt you have faith in the Quran, and if you notice I am not questioning the Quran but rather questioning the understanding of the Quran.

Yes Webber, I have faith in the Quran, The Last Testament from Allah – The Creator of the whole universe - Our Creator – yours and mine - thru Prophet Muhammad, The last Prophet and the Saviour of all mankind.
Btw, The knowledge in the Quran is so vast that all the combined knowledge of us human beings is like a drop in the ocean. The more knowledge you know, the more you don't know.

Originally posted by Webber

Somehow, in 157 "they" becomes "anybody/nobody". Am I missing something in the translation? How can one make such a literary shift and not notice it?

They – could be anybody – he, she, it, Jews, Gentiles, Roman, kafir, Muslims. In this context who was the perpetrator – The Jews. They are the main culprit 2000 years ago until this present day. Full of mischief and arrogance beyond endurance.

Originally posted by Webber

"Another was made to resemble him to them" is a transliteration. I didn't know the NIV did the Quran too.
If that is what you read there's no wonder you have one mind on this topic.

We believe that Allah is Almighty – AllahuAkbar. He created everything in this whole wide universe with ease. Creating Adam without both parents, creating Eve without a mother, creating Jesus without a father, I have no doubts whatsoever that He is capable of creating someone to look like Jesus. Because He is Al-Aziz – The Mighty.

Originally posted by Webber

Rational asked me, then how did he die? That was His last miracle.

The Christians must with all their might defend the death of Jesus with whatsoever means they have. You know why? Because without his death, there is no Christianity.

Originally posted by Webber

Nobody killed Jesus.

That is agreed!

Originally posted by Webber

He gave up His spirit to God, and God took Him.

50/50 because Allah took him up physically and spiritually

Originally posted by Webber

Left them looking at a dead body thinking they did it

“they” – The Jews?

Originally posted by Webber

Just try giving up your spirit to God some time. No worries, it's safe. You don't have the authority to do so. It won't happen, you'll still be here.
It's a miracle so don't feel bad either.

I have read stories of waliyullah (friends of Allah) who could appear and disappear with the permission of Allah. Being at two different places at one time. If your soul is pure, being one with the One, this is not impossible. More so with the Prophet of Allah.

Originally posted by Webber

This replacement theory is a high school play. God wouldn't bother. If He decided to take Jesus, He would, why the game? Just so someone else could die? So they'd stop looking for Jesus? What difference would it make, He's ascended, look all you like.

Then care to explain why the images of Jesus died on the cross could be found in most churches?

I agree with the above two quotations, and I cannot understand how anyone who has read Crucifiction or Crucifixion can say otherwise. Since the muslims within this thread who continue to support Deedat do so (apparently) without having read his book, I think this discussion has gone about as far as it can.

Repicheep, I have read this book. From my understanding, the Jesus that is described in this book, is the lookalike. The Quran stated clearly that he was not crucified. And in his lectures, the late Ahmed Deedat had reassured that he believed what is stated in the Quran that Jesus was not crucified and not killed. Whatever the enemies of Islam who hate to see the Muslim stay united, think, it does not matter. Because Allah is Al-Baseer – All-Seeing, As-Samak-All Hearing. Al-Hakam – The Judge.

Originally posted by Reepicheep

I would like to remind all you muslim Deedat supporters that, on the day of judgement, you will have to explain to Allah WHY you were such strong Deedat supporters. Are you prepared to answer that question?

Yes we are prepared to answer that. That Ahmed Deedat (may Allah be pleased with him) had opened our eyes and taught us so much about the Bible. That the Bible is full of contraditions and errors, that Muhammad was prophecied in the Bible and many more.

Now Repicheep, in the day of judgement, are you prepared to answer Jesus that you believed in the Bible full of contradictions and errors , that you did not follow his true teachings of submitting to the One and Only Lord of the world?

I just showed you 100 times "they" meant the Jews. The Jews were the only ones with a vested interest. they could not mean he she or it, let's be reasonable. The Gentiles had no quarrels with Jesus, kafir would have no idea, where were the Muslims? It's not hard to narrow it down.

We believe that Allah is Almighty – AllahuAkbar. He created everything in this whole wide universe with ease. Creating Adam without both parents, creating Eve without a mother, creating Jesus without a father, I have no doubts whatsoever that He is capable of creating someone to look like Jesus. Because He is Al-Aziz – The Mighty.

This is a great answer for Muslims. When Christians use it, it doesn't work because "whatever" is not logical. Is there an Al-xxx for the almighty deceiver?

The Christians must with all their might defend the death of Jesus with whatsoever means they have. You know why? Because without his death, there is no Christianity.

Thus the Muslim conspiracy...oddly enough, there is Christianity, and it works just fine.

50/50 because Allah took him up physically and spiritually

Muslims have this idea we go to heaven in a shirt n tie. There is no way flesh and blood leaves this planet. Before you could leave the athmosphere you'd be little ashes looking for a flower to fertilize. God does not want our earthly bodys. They are for earth, not heaven. simple science. I don't think you'll find a reliable source that says Jesus ascended physically.

I'm thinking a lot of hadiths were configured while sitting in poppy fields.

I have read stories of waliyullah (friends of Allah) who could appear and disappear with the permission of Allah. Being at two different places at one time. If your soul is pure, being one with the One, this is not impossible. More so with the Prophet of Allah.

Be careful with this stuff. There is a much better chance of meeting an evil spirit than there is a friend of God. No permission req'd and they don't have to tell you the truth. I know you don't believe in evil as Christians do, but it doesn't make the evil realm any less present.

Then care to explain why the images of Jesus died on the cross could be found in most churches?

Actually that would be all (Catholic) churches and I'd rather abolish them then explain them.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 1:48am

Webber, we Muslims know that the main culprit as in the ‘they’ were the Jews. I think it was you who tried to change the ‘they ‘ to something else.

A deceiver can never ever be almighty – because Truth will always win hence Allah is Al-Haqq – The Truth!

Originally posted by Webber

Thus the Muslim conspiracy...oddly enough, there is Christianity, and it works just fine.

Yes I agree there is Christianity – all based on the death of Jesus on the cross. If there were no death, there may not be Christianity at all.

True that we die and leave this planet without our flesh and blood. But Jesus did not die. He is still with Allah physically and spiritually. If you know the strength of our soul – yes our souls – yours and mine, you would be surprised. Perhaps the reason why he was born without a father? Allah is indeed Al-Aleem (All Knowing).

Originally posted by Webber

I'm thinking a lot of hadiths were configured while sitting in poppy fields.

Then you definitely do not know how hadiths were compiled.

Originally posted by Webber

Be careful with this stuff. There is a much better chance of meeting an evil spirit than there is a friend of God. No permission req'd and they don't have to tell you the truth. I know you don't believe in evil as Christians do, but it doesn't make the evil realm any less present.

In Islam, there is waliyullah. After prophets, they are the closest to Allah. Yes I agree that the possibility of meeting an evil spirit is more than meeting a waliyullah or friends of Allah. But they do exist. Of course we do believe in Evil. Without evil, there is no choice between good and bad, so there would not be a purpose in life.

Anyway I did not insist on anything about the ‘they’ not being Jews. Definitely ‘they’ here means The Jews. The most problematic tribe ever lived in this world. And still is.

To continue from Page 7 with the sacrifice for the purification for sin from Numbers 19:

9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.

--- (And this is the way the ashes of the heifer were used.)
17 ‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel.
18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave.

Note: --- The ashes of the heifer mixed with: 'cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet,' were kept in a clean place, and would be used for ‘purification from sin.’ --- It was to be ‘a perpetual or continual statute for them,’ --- They would take some of the ashes, mix them with clean water, and use a sprig of hyssop to sprinkle ‘the water of purification’ on the unclean person or vessel.
However, when the ashes were all used up, they would have to find another unblemished heifer, to prepare more ashes.

From 2:73, --- if we ‘apply’ to the dead body, --- or ‘compare’ the dead body of Jesus to the sacrificed heifer (which was the perfect sacrifice of hundreds of years earlier for the Jewish people), --- we can see a parallel --- that Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice for sin, --- (as were the ashes of the heifer from the OT Covenant that God instructed, for the purification from sin).

--- The difference is that the dead body of Jesus was brought back to life, --- and therefore conquered death. --- And in this we ‘see His Sign,’ of ‘newness of life’ or ‘resurrection from the dead.’ --- And then, after Jesus was raised from the dead, God took Him up to Himself, --- as it says in Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: (I understand the Arabic word used to say,"I will take thee," --- refers to physical death, asis rendered by Sher Ali in 3:
55 Remember the time when ALLAH said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve,

(Jesus was resurrected, rather than the OT sacrifice for purification from sin, that, when the ashes were all used up, they had to be replaced by the ashes of another perfect heifer).

As I said before, --- A footnote in the Pickthall translation: --- Maulana says that verses 72-73 refer to the Martyrdom of Jesus Christ.
Here I want to give the commentary on verses 72 and 73 by Maulana Muhammad Ali; from his website: http://www.muslim.or...quran/quran.htm

(Quote):
72a. The story generally narrated by the commentators to explain this passage is not based on any saying of the Holy Prophet; nor is it met with in the Bible. The very indefiniteness of the incident is an indication that it refers to some well-known event in history, and as almost all incidents of the stubbornness of the Jewish nation prior to the time of Jesus have been mentioned, it becomes almost certain that this incident refers to Jesus himself, as it was with respect to his death that disagreement took place and many doubted his death.
This inference becomes stronger when we compare the incidents narrated
here with the same incidents as narrated in Surah 4:153–157, where, after enumerating almost all the incidents narrated here in the three previous sections,
--- (their disobedience, their breaking of the Covenant, and their breaking of the Sabbath), 4:154-156 --- the Qur’an goes on to accuse the Jews in the following words: “And for their saying:
We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture” (4:157).

The part quoted answers exactly to vv. 72 and 73, only that the name is omitted here. This comparison makes it clear that it is the apparent killing of Jesus that is referred to here. --- End of quote.

Quote:
73a. The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-ha, (Strike him with some of it) is rather difficult, but a comparison with 4:157 makes the meaning clear.
Oarb, as shown in 60a, conveys a number of significations. It means striking as well as likening, and an instance of the latter significance we find in the Qur’an itself, where it is said ya˙ribu-llahu-l-√aqqa wa-lbaΔila, Allah compares truth and falsehood (13:17). In ba‘˙i-ha (lit., a part of it), the personal pronoun ha, i.e., it, refers to the act of murder.
The act of murder was not completed in the case of Jesus, as the Gospels show, for his legs were not broken, as in the case of the thieves. The meaning of the
sentence is therefore according to the signification of ˙arb that we adopt: strike him with partial death, or liken his condition to that of the partially dead man; and thus he was made to appear as a dead man, as stated in 4:157. There is no other case of a murder or an attempted murder in Jewish history of which the whole nation could be said to have been guilty, and which might answer to the description of these two verses.

73b. This was really a case of giving life to the dead, for Jesus Christ was dead to
all appearance. Those actually dead do not return to life in this world.

(In his footnotes, he explained that), --- The words صَلَبُوهُ مَا in Qur'an 4:157, do not negate Jesus' PBUH, being nailed to a cross; they only negate his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. He also explains that Prophet Jesus, PBUH, "died a natural death as is plainly stated in S. 5:117" of Al-Qur'an.
5:117. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and thou art witness of all things. --- Shakir’s translation.
However, some translations do not use the word "die," instead; when thou didst take me up, or, when thou took me. --- End of quote.

Compare the following:
2:73 Yusuf Ali: So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

--- (Yusuf Ali uses the literal translation of the word ‘strike,’ --- whereas Maulana says it can mean ‘strike’ --- or ‘likening,’ - ‘comparing,’ --- so the following is with that meaning.)
2:73 Sher Ali: Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does ALLAH give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

--- (And the comparison of the unblemished heifer in 2:71 in Moses day, ---was to the commandment that God gave through Moses to choose an unblemished heifer,in Numbers 19.

Compare these verses as well:
4:157 Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
157 Sher Ali: And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.

This is as Webber has been saying, “The Jews didn’t kill Jesus.”
“Nor did they (the Jews) bring about His death upon the cross.”

Placid

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:25am

Originally posted by Webber

Originally posted by honeto

CArinheart,
is that the reason you say now that different ways lead to God, when you quote "in their wisdom they became fools"?
Hasan

LOL, That was a quote about the Jews also.

God isn't about religion, He's about a daily personnal walk.

Hi Webber,

It may have been about the Jews as well, but God's Word is for all time... it applies to all of us through all time... I would say even more so today than ever. Man has gained so much ground in what he feels is of his own making, that he no longer gives credit to, or seeks, God.

I agree belonging to God is about a daily personal walk.

Peace,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:33am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Originally posted by Caringheart

I hear prejudice in that statement.

That was not meant as a prejudice, but more of a fact.

A fact born of a prejudiced heart. Not all Jews are bad or evil.

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

I doubt if you follow 100 percent of what Jesus alaihissalam taught. If you are not following 100 percent, you will never ever be able to even come near the Truth.

Ah... but I do... because I have the Holy Spirit.You are however correct, I am sure that I am not perfected in God's will just yet, and I am sure I do not meet 100 percent of what Jesus taught. I am human still. What I do have is the Holy Spirit which convicts me in my heart, and I seek God's forgiveness for my shortcomings and for His guidance to be stronger and better in doing His will.

Peace and blessings to you,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 26 January 2013 at 5:31am

Originally posted by Caringheart

A fact born of a prejudiced heart. Not all Jews are bad or evil.

Have to agree to that. There are even Jews who converted to Islam.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Ah... but I do... because I have the Holy Spirit.You are however correct, I am sure that I am not perfected in God's will just yet, and I am sure I do not meet 100 percent of what Jesus taught. I am human still. What I do have is the Holy Spirit which convicts me in my heart, and I seek God's forgiveness for my shortcomings and for His guidance to be stronger and better in doing His will. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Peace and blessings to you,Caringheart

I guess the Holy Spirit that you mentioned must be the Ruh that Allah had given each and everyone of us. Without The Ruh, we are nothing. We may have eyes, but could not see, have ears, but cannot hear, have tongue, but cannot talk etc. How important this Ruh is to each and everyone of us. With this Ruh we are connected to our Creator and if you are able to delve deeper, you will feel His presence that will make you feel calm and peaceful. Yes we are taught to be always asking His forgiveness. Indeed we are human who always err. And He is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving.

I guess the Holy Spirit that you mentioned must be the Ruh that Allah had given each and everyone of us. Without The Ruh, we are nothing. We may have eyes, but could not see, have ears, but cannot hear, have tongue, but cannot talk etc. How important this Ruh is to each and everyone of us. With this Ruh we are connected to our Creator and if you are able to delve deeper, you will feel His presence that will make you feel calm and peaceful. Yes we are taught to be always asking His forgiveness. Indeed we are human who always err. And He is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving.

Greetings Nur-Ilahi,

Thank you for sharing this teaching. I had not previously heard of 'Ruh'. I will be reading up to learn more. Is Ruh mentioned in the Qur'an?

Salaam,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:30pm

Originally posted by Webber

Originally posted by honeto

CArinheart,
is that the reason you say now that different ways lead to God, when you quote "in their wisdom they became fools"?
Hasan

LOL, That was a quote about the Jews also.

God isn't about religion, He's about a daily personnal walk.

and who would know that better than a Muslim? None.
Hasan

-------------39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:33pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by honeto

CArinheart,
is that the reason you say now that different ways lead to God, when you quote "in their wisdom they became fools"?
Hasan

*sighNo Hasan,The more human knowledge man gains, the less he seeks the wisdom of God... to be guided by God. Man begins to think he is a power unto himself.We are talking about two completely different things here.Caringheart

I was referring to something you have said on the forum, that there are many ways that lead to God. Is that's what happens when you loose belief in what you thought was the truth, but no longer see it that way, so you said, there are many ways that lead to God".
Hasan

-------------39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 4:50pm

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Webber

Originally posted by honeto

CArinheart,
is that the reason you say now that different ways lead to God, when you quote "in their wisdom they became fools"?
Hasan

LOL, That was a quote about the Jews also.

God isn't about religion, He's about a daily personnal walk.

and who would know that better than a Muslim? None.
Hasan

I assume you mean a Muslim would know it was about Jews.

It would be highly presumptuous to say one man's worship is worth more than another.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 7:06pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nur-Ilahi,Thank you for sharing this teaching. I had not previously heard of 'Ruh'. I will be reading up to learn more. Is Ruh mentioned in the Qur'an?

Caringheart, here is one of the verses mentioned in the Quran "They ask you [O Muhammad (saws] concerning the Ruh (Soul). Say: 'It is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given very little." [Qur'an Al-Israa 17: 85]

Caringheart, remember that we live in the same planet, same earth, same universe, therefore there could only be One God who created all human beings, infact, all the creations in this whole universe. When we (you, me and (all the Ruh - Souls/spirits) were firstly created we then were asked "AllahSWA asked them: "Am I not your Rabb?" They all replied: (قَالُواْبَلَىٰ) "Yes! We bear witness that You are." This We did, lest you mankind should say on the Day of Resurrection: "We were not aware of this fact that You are our Rabb and that there will be a Day of Judgement.[QURAN 7:172]

However when we were born into this world, some remembered, but many forgot the oath that we took earlier . And they worship other God instead of the One and Only God of the whole universe that created you and me.

I guess the Holy Spirit that you mentioned must be the Ruh that Allah had given each and everyone of us. Without The Ruh, we are nothing. We may have eyes, but could not see, have ears, but cannot hear, have tongue, but cannot talk etc. How important this Ruh is to each and everyone of us. With this Ruh we are connected to our Creator and if you are able to delve deeper, you will feel His presence that will make you feel calm and peaceful. Yes we are taught to be always asking His forgiveness. Indeed we are human who always err. And He is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving.

Greetings Nur-Ilahi,

Thank you for sharing this teaching. I had not previously heard of 'Ruh'. I will be reading up to learn more. Is Ruh mentioned in the Qur'an?

Salaam,Caringheart

It would be a very interesting study.

The Bible teaches us that we as people are body, soul , and spirit. The spirit comes from God, belongs to God, and goes back to God. In the mean time it keeps us alive and in our bodys. When the body dies, the spirit leaves and the soul awaits judgement.

I believe in the Quran the Holy Spirit is mentioned as "The Sprit" when it doesn't mean Gabriel.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:38pm

Originally posted by Webber

The Bible teaches us that we as people are body, soul , and spirit. The spirit comes from God, belongs to God, and goes back to God. In the mean time it keeps us alive and in our bodys. When the body dies, the spirit leaves and the soul awaits judgement.
I believe in the Quran the Holy Spirit is mentioned as "The Sprit" when it doesn't mean Gabriel.

Salam Webber.
That is a start. A platform where we can find similarities in our religion. Indeed the Ruh or Soul that was given to each and everyone of us came from One Source. And the One Source is the Creator of the whole universe - Allah Rabbul alameen - God of the whole universe. Who created the bluest of the sea, the tiniest of an atom, the deepest of the ocean or the furthest of the stars. He is the ONE that is worthy of worship.

The Holy Spirit as I would describe it is,
as a light that drives away the darkness that can overshadow our souls.
The Holy Spirit is a gift from God that becomes part of us(or indwells
our birth flesh and birth spirit). It is a guide, a light from God
Himself, and of God Himself, that illuminates the mind and shows us
God's path.

Does this compare with the concept of Ruh in your mind?

Salaam,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:50pm

To continue from the top of Page 9:
In saying the Jews didn’t kill Jesus, --- we can check the Scriptures and see what happened.

The Jews plotted Jesus’ death but the Jews had no authority to put anyone to death so they had to take Him before Pilate who declared Him innocent. --- But when the Jews incited the mob to say “Crucify Him,” Pilate feared that a riot would start, so Pilate said, “You take Him and crucify Him.” --- And they said, “Let His blood be on us and on our children.” This involved the Roman soldiers to carry out the crucifixion --- and the Jews boasted about it, --- thinking this was the end of the story, --- and that it fulfilled their desire to get rid of Jesus.

Notice how the transgressions of the Jews, here, compare to surah 2:63-73, which required the sacrifice of the unblemished heifer? --- And it says in Surah 4:
153 The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us God in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear Signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

154 And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.

155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the Signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"; - Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe; -

--- (Notice: --- They, the Jews, broke their covenant. They rejected the Signs of God. --- God gave the first Sign of a Son born of a virgin in Isaiah 7:14.
--- (And this) in Surah 21:
91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
--- God, through the angels, announced the Sign to the shepherds when Jesus was born in Luke 2:
12 And this will be the Sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”
Surah 3:50 (Jesus said) I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

Surah 2: 73 Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does ALLAH give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.)

--- Now notice the Jews’ defense? --- "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"
--- They believed that they were God’s chosen people regardless of their sins of putting other prophets to death, and having condemned the Apostle Jesus.
Notice their terminology --- “Our hearts are the ‘wrappings’ that preserve God’s word.”
--- But the condemnation follows: “Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;”

156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
--- (This charge may have come from verses that questioned Mary about her marriage), like Surah 19:
27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

And now:
157 Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they (the Jews) killed him not:-
157 Sher Ali: And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.

--- This may sound like Jesus didn’t die, but the proof is there in Maulana’s commentary, as well as Surah 2:72-73, --- though the murder wasn’t carried out, nor did He die from the wounds of the nails.--- So we will check that next.

Placid

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 11:42pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nur-Ilahi,The Holy Spirit as I would describe it is,
as a light that drives away the darkness that can overshadow our souls.
The Holy Spirit is a gift from God that becomes part of us(or indwells
our birth flesh and birth spirit). It is a guide, a light from God
Himself, and of God Himself, that illuminates the mind and shows us
God's path.Does this compare with the concept of Ruh in your mind?

Hi Caringheart.
There are similarities here. Indeed the Ruh or - once inside the body of a human it is also called the Nafs - is indeed from The Almighty God. And He with His Mercy and Love towards His Creations especially us human beings had already equipped with 7 of His characteristics in the Ruh. And one of them is Ilm or Knowledge. Especially the knowledge of God. That is the reason many people in this whole world are searching for Him. Some already found Him, while some still are groping in the dark. Those who are still in the dark perhaps have not found the One True God, He who has no beginning and He who has no end.

Hi Caringheart.
There are similarities here. Indeed the Ruh or - once inside the body of a human it is also called the Nafs - is indeed from The Almighty God. And He with His Mercy and Love towards His Creations especially us human beings had already equipped with 7 of His characteristics in the Ruh. And one of them is Ilm or Knowledge. Especially the knowledge of God. That is the reason many people in this whole world are searching for Him. Some already found Him, while some still are groping in the dark. Those who are still in the dark perhaps have not found the One True God, He who has no beginning and He who has no end.

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

Oh, I thought that Ruh and nafs were two different things. I did alot of reading to try to come to a proper understanding, because my first response was that the Ruh was nothing like the Holy Spirit, until I did some more reading and learned about nafs. (I found it all quite complicated as is everything arabic.) At first it seemed that the Ruh was simply the soul, then I read about nafs and came to understand that this is soul, and that Ruh is spirit, which is something more.

Salaam,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:20am

Me too. At first I was quite confused between soul and spirit. Now I do have a better understanding. The spirit is the Ruh belonging to Allah. When it enters our body, it becomes the Nafs with desires, lust, passion. And our duty in this earth is to control this Nafs. If we feed it, it becomes bloated and will be our master, however if we ignore it's demands, the status of the Nafs will increase. But the Ruh is still there, because without the Ruh, we are just a piece of useless flesh. Our prophet Muhammad Rasulullah ever mentioned that the biggest jihad or struggle is against one's Nafs (also known as ego)

"(It will be said to the pious): "O (you) the one in (complete) rest and satisfaction (Nafsul Mutmainnah)! Come back to your Lord, Well-pleased (yourself) and well-pleasing unto Him! Enter you, then, among My honoured slaves, and enter you My Paradise!" - Surah Al Fajr [89:27-30]

A Cherokee Legend

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight
is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One
is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity,
guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority,
and ego."

He continued, "The other wolf is good - he is joy,
peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy,
generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

The same fight is going
on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather,
"Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

and this;

Life by the Spirit

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law[but are led by the Spirit in obeying the law*].

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (this is what Paul taught)

* this is my note added for clarity

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 6:01pm

Greetings to you too Caringheart.

Yes I have read about that Cherokee Legend. It only confirms my knowledge that we are all the same, having the same characteristics from the same Creator.

Just for your info the Nafs (self/ego) has 7 levels. The first being the worst, while the last is the best.

As to the second part of your posting, I agree to many except this "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. "

Other characteristics of the Nafsu Al-amarah - Jealosy, Lust, Back Biting, Stinginess, Malice and many others.

We human beings have all these characters and in order to become a better person, we need to recognise these bad traits in us and to correct it as much as we can to increase our nafs to a better level. And it is there in the teachings of The Last Prophet Muhammad RAsulullah sent by Allah - Our Creator - in the Quran - The Last Testament as a guide to all humankind.

And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful - surah Yusuf 12:53

I thought you would recognize the similarities.Yes I did read about the many levels of nafs... and of Ruh too. This is what I meant by how everything arabic is so complicated.

Regarding this;"As to the second part of your posting, I agree to many except this "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. "

I understand, you would have to 'belong to Christ' to understand what this means and how it works. It simply means that those who have given their lives to God, those who have found God through Jesus, find it easy to defeat the temptations of the flesh. "my yoke is easy, my burden is light"

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (the words of Jesus)

When you choose to give it over to God you are on a winning path. A yoke is made for two... it shares the burden, and God will also carry us when we let Him.

"Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you.I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you." (Isaiah)

They no longer try in their own power to overcome the temptations of the world and the flesh, but come to understand that only the power of God brings success. Many have overcome addictions through this realization and turning their lives over to God.This is what it means, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Salaam,Caringheart

"Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires"

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 9:07pm

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Your reply is very confusing. I suspect you haven't read Deedat's book and have no idea of what it contains, correct?

If you have read it, please provide us with a short 3 or 4 sentence summary of what the book claims. How do you explain the fact that his book contradicts the Koran, in particular verse 4:157?

When the writings of Deedat contradict the Koran, which source to you consider to be correct, Deedat or the Koran???

Salaam,I am not sure you are here but to clear the air you are correct; Ahmad Deedat did make that mistake. however I did a full research on the subject to correct the it so here it is:
<>

Paul said:

“If Christ be
not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also
vain.”(I Corinthians 15:14)

In other words, the entire
foundation of Christianity is in the death and resurrection of Jesus (S). If
there is no resurrection, then the Christian’s teaching is in vain as there is
nothing left in Christianity. So let’s look at this death and resurrection.

Allah (S) said in the Qur’an:

And they said
(in boast), “we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah”:- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are
full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture,
for of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157)

So He Allah (S)
instructed the Prophet (S) to say:

“Say:
‘Produce your proof if ye speak the truth’”. (Q.2:111)

I
will examine the proof. In the N.T. in John 16:16 (KJV) Jesus (s) told his disciples:

In the “New International Version”
they remove part of the verse “because I
go to the Father”

"In a
little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will
see me."http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=31 -

You see that! They remove this last part of
the verse “http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3754 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1473 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5217 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4314 - - the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3962 - - ”WHY? They knew the implication that is
why they removed it! “going to the
father” Christians understand it to mean “the death and resurrection”.

Let us read it in context, Jesus (S)
said:

“…A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and
ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=9 - (KJV)

Then
some of the disciples were enquiring what he meant:

17Then said
some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us,
A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye
shall see me: and, “Because I go to the Father?”
18They said therefore, “What is this that he saith” A little while? we
cannot tell what he saith.

Now, Jesus (S) explained:

19Now Jesus
knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire
among yourselves of that I said, “A
little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall
see me?”

In V.20to 32, Christians understood it to mean “the death and resurrection”. So, when he said: “Because
I go to the Father” that is referring to his death. It read as follows:

20Verily,
verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall
rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow,
because her hour is come:but as
soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for
joy that a man is born into the world.

22And
ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will
see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from
you.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am
come into the world: again,I leave the world, and go to the Father.

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now
come, that ye
shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I
am not alone, because the Father is with me.

33These things I have spoken unto you,
that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be
of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Which “hour” he is talking? The “hour”
of “going to the Father”

In that chapter, Christians
understand “Because I go to the Father” tomean “the death and resurrection”. We Muslims understand it to mean the sign
that was promised to the Jews when he said:

“For as Jonas
was three days and three nights in the wale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:40&version=9 - - Matt.12:40

Did Jonas die
in the wale belly? No! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the
situation.

And he took
with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very
heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul
is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death:
tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on
his face. And prayed, saying,O my
Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I
will, but as thou will. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:35-39

Notice,
he fell on his face and PRAYING to his God asking him to change the situation?
Yes! And what happen next? His God send an angel to help him.

And there
appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43&version=9 - - Luke 22:43)

Another point he said: “My soul” and not “flesh”, not his human side “flesh”
but his spiritual side “soul.” His soul
was exceeding sorrowful even unto death, he fears death. Which God will
fear death? According to the writings of the bible, The Father God was in him
and with him in the same John 16: verse 32 and also john14:10.

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye
shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am “not alone,” because the Father
is “with me”. (John 16: 32)

Believest
thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak
unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father
that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10)

If
the Father is “with him and in him”,
what is the purpose of “sending an
angel?”Do angels strengthen God?
Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him?

"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in
earth." (Matthew 28:18)

The angel was assuring him what is
going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what
Jesus (S) has to say because all the disciples fled from the scene.

And they all
forsook him and fled.(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=14&verse=50&version=9&context=verse - - Mark 14:50)

AFTER THE
SUPPOSE CRUCIFIXION:

And when she
(Mary Magdalene) had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus
standing, and she knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why
weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing
him to be the gardener...(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:14-15&version=9 - - John 20:14-15)

Mary knew Jesus (S) all
through his ministry and within a day and a half she did not recognize him, she took him for a gardener, why? Is it
another man “the gardener” God
Almighty substitute instead of Jesus (S) and place a spirit (Rooh) upon him to
act as Jesus (S)? I suppose, if a Christians saw the so call photo of Jesus (s)
now and after twenty years they would recognize it, is that a fact? O Yes! Even
the disciples did not know him:

“…But the disciples knew him not that it
was Jesus.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:4&version=9 - - John 21:4

Why? Because it was not him! Qur’an
conforms that:

But they killed
him not, nor crucified him,but it was made to appear to them so,
and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge,
but they follow only conjecture… (Q.4:157)

Mary didn’t recognize
him nether the Disciples. As the Qur’an rightly said: “There are full of doubt with no
(certain) knowledge”

Behold! Allah
said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of
the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme... (Q.3:55)

The question is when did it
happen? Is it possible when Jesus was at Gethsemane, because all the
disciples were asleep which also indicate it was night too (see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%20%2026:40&version=9 - ) and that is
where they laid hold on him (the
supposed Jesus the Gardiner) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%20%2026:57&version=9 - . May be, Allah
(S) has placed a Spirit (Rooh) on him (the gardener) to act as Jesus (S). Of
course, it was night and no one had that in mind [that Allah (S) will replace
him with another man “the gardener”
who Mary recognizes as.

Allah (S) said:

“And (the
unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of
planner is Allah! (Q.3:54)

To be more certain it is not Jesus (S) we can
look at the accounts of John when they were about to capture him:

It is mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2018:1-8&version=9 - - John 18:1-8

V1When Jesus had spoken these words, he
went forth with the disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a “GARDEN,” into
which he entered, and his disciples.

V.3Judas then, having received a band of men
and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns
and torches and weapons.

V.4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that
should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?

V.6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am
he, the went backward, and fell on the ground.

V.7Then ask he them again, whom seek ye? And
they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

V.8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am
he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way.

There you can see how Christians miss the boat. They did see that his
enemy didn’t “recognize” the man to
be Jesus (S).

They were asking for Jesus of Nazareth,
Why? Because he was not there! V.4
says that: “Jesus therefore, knowing all
things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?”Think about it, Jesus was asking them “whom seek ye?” and what they said? V.5 “They answered him, Jesus of
Nazareth.” why? Because they didn’t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them,
and the suppose Jesus “the gardener”according
to Mary in John 20:15 where she
supposing him to be the gardener said: “I
am he”. And what happen after that? V.6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and
fell on the ground. Why? They were shock to know that they man whom
they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because
they didn’t recognize him.AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted “Jesus of Nazareth” why again? Because
they didn’t recognize him to be
Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the
gardener insisted “I am he,” and
in V. 8 he said: “I have told
you thatI am he”
more emphasis add here, why? Because they didn’t recognize him as Jesus (S), and also where they caught him? In the “garden,” and what Mary said? “She
supposes him to be the gardener.” Coincident!

You see! He look like a “gardener” and was caught in the “garden”, And they didn’t “recognize” him. It was not him!

I've
established that:

1- Mary didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

2- The Disciples didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

3- And also when Judas and his band went
to capture him they didn't RECONOZE HIM, Why?

4- They captured him in the GARDEN,

5- And Mary took him for a GARDENER.

And Allah (S) said:

“That the
rejected Faith; That they utter against Mary a grave false charge; That they
said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not, nor crucified
him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein
are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not. Nay,
Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. And
there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but must believe
in him (Jesus) before his death; And on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus) will be
a witness against them.” (Q.4:156-159)

Br. zainool

-------------LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 9:11pm

<>

Even the supposed Jesus they did not
kill as you read on:

Jesus
said unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him, Rabboni; which is
to say, Master. Jesus said unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended
to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend
unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+20%3A17&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%252020%3A17&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=20&ncc=20 - - KJV)

Remember he told the
disciples:

“A little
while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.”(John
16:16)

And Christians understand it
to mean that, he will die and resurrect; But the suppose Jesus is telling
Mary he did not go to the father
(died) as yet but go and tell them he
did, “I http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=305 - - ascend ”
all ready died.But the Devil
is quick to draw the vial over your eyes in changing “I ascend” to “I will go”,
I am returning. See other translations and compare it with the KJV

Allah (S) said:

For of a surety
they killed him not. (Q.4:157)

Now, please don’t tell me that he
was going up in the sky because he was speaking to Mary on the earth and he
said, “Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father.” He was just
there in front of her.

Paul testified that Jesus (S)
did not die:

Who in the
days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong
crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from
death, and was heard in that he feared.(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:7&version=9 - - Hebrews 5:7)

To what extend he prayed? He
said:

“…My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even
unto death... And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed,
saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless
not as I will, but as thou will.”(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:28-29)

Also in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43-44&version=9 - - Luke22:44

“And being in
agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his
sweet was, as it were, great drop of blood falling to the ground.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43-44&version=9 - - Luke22:44

And there appeared an angel unto him
from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers
and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him(God Almighty)that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:7&version=9 - - Hebrews 5:7)

He knew the truth, he confesses that
he lied:

He said: “If the truth of God is more abundant
in my lies why should I call a sinner?”

In
other words, if he tells some lies to bring people to God he should no call a
sinner.

Even some of the Jews knew that he didn’t died, but what they
did not know is that, he was the suppose Jesus the gardener. Read for yourself:

62“Now
the next day… the chief priest and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying,
Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three
days I will rise again.

64Command therefore that the sepulchre be
made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him
away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: So the LAST ERROR SHALL BE WORSE THAN THE FIRST(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew.27:62-64&version=9 - - Matt.27:62-64”

They are talking about FIRST
ERROR and LAST ERROR.What is the
first error? They knew that they didn’t kill the suppose Jesus.

Jesus, interestingly, told the Pharisees too:

“go and learn what this means: 'I desire
mercy, not sacrifice” [Matthew 9:13].

We all agree that Jesus Christ (S) was a
righteous and a pious man and the O.T. says that the wicked will take his
place: “In the work of his own hands the
wicked is snared" [Psalm 9:16],

"The
wicked is a ransom for the righteous,
And the treacherous is in the place of the upright” [Proverbs 21:18],

and "The
righteous is delivered from trouble,
But the wicked takes his place" [Proverbs 11:8].

Who say that? The God of theof the
Jews!

Last point, what is a resurrected body? Let Jesus tells us:

“…For they are
equal unto the angels,” Luke 20:27-27

Meaning, that they will be
Angelised, they will be Spiritualized, they will be Spirit! As to regards the
suppose Jesus:

“Behold my
hand and feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see: for a SPIRIT has no flesh and bone, as you
see me have. (Luke 24:39-40)

If Christ be
not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith
is also vain.(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I%20Corinthians%2015:14&version=9 - - I Corinthians15:14)

Is the crucifixion true or doubtful? The Qur’an says, “It is doubt full with no certain knowledge”
Why Mary didn’t recognize him, neither the disciples, even when Judas and his
band of men didn’t recognize him when they went to capture him? Because it was
not him (it was doubt full) and I
would not put my soul in something that is “doubt
full!”

And they said (in boast), “we killed Christ
the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah”:- but
they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them
so, and those who differ therein are
full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not.
(Q.4:157)

Br. zainool

-------------LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 9:23pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Hi Caringheart.
There are similarities here. Indeed the Ruh or - once inside the body of a human it is also called the Nafs - is indeed from The Almighty God. And He with His Mercy and Love towards His Creations especially us human beings had already equipped with 7 of His characteristics in the Ruh. And one of them is Ilm or Knowledge. Especially the knowledge of God. That is the reason many people in this whole world are searching for Him. Some already found Him, while some still are groping in the dark. Those who are still in the dark perhaps have not found the One True God, He who has no beginning and He who has no end.

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

Oh, I thought that Ruh and nafs were two different things. I did alot of reading to try to come to a proper understanding, because my first response was that the Ruh was nothing like the Holy Spirit, until I did some more reading and learned about nafs. (I found it all quite complicated as is everything arabic.) At first it seemed that the Ruh was simply the soul, then I read about nafs and came to understand that this is soul, and that Ruh is spirit, which is something more.

Salaam,Caringheart

Peace my friend,

You are correct, the Scholars made that mistake by interchange the word when translate it. I did a review on it here is it:

<>

What or who is the “Holy Spirit.”

It is very important to note that we make
genuine mistakes sometimes and we don’t realize it. In this chapter I have
established what a spirit, the human spirit is and what or who is the Holy
Spirit according to the scriptures.

In Islam the scholars explained that the Holy
Spirit is Angel Gabriel (S) which is true. The Arabic word used there is roohu alqudus which translated as Holy Spirit.However, they also translate the word “rooh”
as angel Gabriel (S) and sometimes as spirit and as soul.

I shall look at the word “Spirit”. In the
Greek Septuagint O.T. (LXX) pneuma is
for spirit and in Hebrew Ruah is for Spirit and in Arabic Rooh is for Spirit.

The question one never asks is what is a Spirit? A
Spirit is a supernatural entity: a supernatural being that does not have a physical body,
for example some are call, ghost, and demon, Jinn and angel etc. In reality
they are in a form of conscious energy.

Having that understanding what a “spirit” is, in
Islam we understand them as the human spirit, jinn and angel.

vTHE HUMAN SPIRIT:

The Human’s spirit is that which Allah (S)
created for each person at the beginning, we were and are spiritual being and we were sent here on
earth at our appointed time until the Day of Judgment.

"When I have fashioned him (in due
proportion) and breathed into him of My
spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." (Qur’an 38:72)

When Allah (S) says: “We breathed
into him of my spirit!”Does that mean the spirit that Allah (S) bread into Adam (S) is Allah (S) or part of
Allah (S)? No! How do we know that? Allah (S) gives us the answer in his Noble
Book the Qur’an, He mentioned:

“The Day that the spirit and the angels
will stand forth in ranks, none
shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will
say what is right.” (Qur’an 78:38)

On the Day of Judgment the Spirit
(Rooh) and the angels will stand forth in ranks in front of Allah (S).
If the spirit (Ruh) was Allah (S) then that would mean on the Day of Judgment
Allah (S) will stand forth in front of himself which is incorrect. When Allah
(S) used the term “My Spirit” it simply means everything belongs to Allah
(S), example: My throne, My universe, My servants, My angels, My Spirit etc.;
all was createdby Allah (S) for a
purpose.

That spirit which Allah (S)
breathed into Adam (S) is the spirit he created for Adam (S) and after that he
created all the spirits of Adam’s descendants at the beginning. They were and
are spiritual being and they were sent here on earth at their appointed time
until the Day of Judgment. It is mentioned in His Noble Book the Qur’an:

“When
thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their
descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not
your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?” They said: “Yea! We do testify!”
(This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Varily, we have been
unaware of this”

Or
lest ye should say: “It was Our fathers before us may have taken false gods,
but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us who took
others as partnesrin worship along with Allah, and we were (merely their)
decendants after them; will you then destroy us because of thedeeds of men?”Al-A'raf (The Heights)
7:172-173

All the children of Adam’s were
created at the beginning in spirit (Rooh)and were testifying concerning the one
true God-Allah (S) that He is their Lord, so that, on the Day of Judgment
they will have no excuses.

It is also in the O.T. Prophet Solomon is reported in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%208&version=31 - - Proverbs 8:22-27 (NIV) to have said:

"22 The LORD brought me forth as the
first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23I was appointed
from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.24 When
there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding
with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the
hills, I was given birth, 26before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens
in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

According to http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038&version=31 - and 21 (NIV), God addresses Prophet Job as follows:

"Where were you when I laid the
earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a
measuring line across it?

21Surely you know, for you
were already born! You have lived so many years!

Why we do not remember what happen in the beginning? Allah (S) tells us
in the Noble Qur’an:

By the time, verily Man is in lost, except
such as have faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual
enjoining of truth, and of patience and constancy. (Q.103:1-3)

By the passing of time: Time begins with Allah’s
(S) creations and we were created in the beginning to witness the one true
Creator Allah (S) before we were place here on earth. We thenbecome forgetful and ungrateful of the
Creator Allah (S), we are in a state of lost or forgetfulness by the passing
of time, and to get back there we have to put our trust and have faith in
Allah (S) by following His reminder (The Qur’an and the prophet’s (S) Sunnah)

"But whosoever turns away from My Message (Dhikr),verily
for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day
of Judgment. He will say: "O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up
blind, while I had sight (before)?" (Allah)) will say: "Thus didst
Thou, when Our Signs came unto thee, disregard them: so wilt thou, this day, be
disregarded." 20:124-126 (Y. Ali)

The Arabic word there is “dhikr” which mean “reminder” and it translates
as “Message” by Y. All. So the Qur’an
is the “reminder” and it reminds us of whom we are and where we came from where
we have to go and how to get there.

Continue...

-------------LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 9:26pm

Ah, they killed the gardener...

Add it to the list I guess.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 9:26pm

<>

vTHE
HOLY SPIRIT

Now that we understood what is a human spirit, the next question what is
the Holy Spirit? It simple, all spirits that comes from Allah (S) is Holy.
However, the title “Holy Spirit” was
given to the messenger of Allah (S) “Jibreel/Gabriel (S)”. The scholar of Islam
explains:

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: the
majority of scholars said that the Holy Spiritrefers to Jibreel (peace be upon him), and that Allaah called him al-Rooh al-Ameen, Rooh al-Qudus and Jibreel."(Daqaa'iq
al-Tafseer, part 1, p. 310)

Proof of that is in Qur’an, Allah (S)
commanded the prophet (S) true Gabriel:

“Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down
the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went
before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-“ (Qur’an 2:97)

“Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in
Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad
Tidings to Muslims. (Qur’an16:102)

Although Gabriel (S) has the title “Roohu alqudus” (Holy Spirit) in
another verse he was called “Spirit
(Rooh)”alone in short and was translates as “angel” and that was at
the announcement to Mary of birth of Jesus (S), it read:

She placed a screen (to screen herself)
from them; then We sent her our angel,
and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (Qur’an 19:17)

The word used there is “ilayha roohana”. The reason
why it translates as “angel” is because it was Gabriel (S) who visits Mary .Spirit doesn’t take form as a
man! That is how Angel Gabriel (S) appears on earth when he comes in
contact with human being; he appears as a human being. The verse below conforms
that it was Gabriel (S):

“Behold!
the angels said: "O
Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be
Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter
and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.” Q.3:45 (Y. Ali)

The word used there is almalaikatu
( the angels).

The N.T. says the same thing:

“And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from
God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To
a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the
virgin's name was Mary.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:26-27&version=9 -

However, in Matthew 1:20 it mentioned:

“But while he thought on these
things, behold, the angel of the LORD
appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to
take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”Matthew 1:20

There is no such thing as “Ghost” in the scriptures; it is “Spirit (Rooh
or Raaha)” They add it when the wrote the message in Greek, they call the
Spirit a Ghost and that is where the word Ghost Spell come from. First the come
up with God Spell, then Good Sell then Ghost spell; the word should “Holt
Spirit” but let we stick with the word Holy Ghost for now. After said that,
there is a misunderstanding of the usage of word by the scholars; in Joseph’s
dream, the angel of the Lord was Gabriel
(S) and he said: “for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” Now, because the wordHoly Ghostused there the scholars of Islam took it for Gabriel (S) and
that is because Allah (S) address Gabriel (S) as Holy Ghost (roohu alqudus) as I have
explained above, but look what Allah (S) says in the Qur’an:

“And (remember) her who guarded her
chastity: We breathed into her of Our
spirit, and We made her and
her son a sign for all peoples”. (Qur’an 21:91)

“And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who
guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit and she testified to the
truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the
devout (servants).” (Qur’an 66:12)

Allah (S) said: “We breathed into
(her body) of Our spirit!” When
the N.T. used the word Holy Ghost,
it is referring to a Spirit from Allah
(S) and when Allah (S) used the term “My Spirit and Our Spirit” that does
not in any way mean the Spirit is Allah (S) or part of Him as what the
Christian’s Scholar are saying that the Holy Ghost is God Almighty. When Allah
(S) used the term “My Spirit” it simply means everything belongs to Allah
(S), example: My throne, My universe, My servants, My angels, My Spirit etc.;
all was createdby Allah (S) for a
purpose.

This verse below clearly shows
that Allah (S) does not referrers to Himself when He used the term “Our Spirit” (min roohina):

“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses
in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word (BE), which He bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him (Roohun minhu)…(Q.4:171)

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up
with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened
him with the holy spirit…
(Qur’an 2:87)

It is also in the
N.T. according tohttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew3:16&version=9 -

And Jesus, when he was baptized…lo, the
heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him…http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew3:16&version=9 -

Note: The Spirit of God
there is not God Almighty! It is Gabriel (S) comes from God Almighty and
he descended like a dove and lighting upon him.

Allah (S) also strengthens the Believers
(Muslims) with spirit from Himself (roohin minhu):

“Thou wilt not find any people who believe in
Allah and the Last Day, loving those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even
though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their
kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened
them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath
which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with
them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah (Hezbullah). Truly it is
the Party of Allah that will achieve Success.” (Qur’an 58:22)

“Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He
is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants
he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,” (Qur’an
40:15)

But he Allah (S) also said when they ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say:

‘The spirit
(cometh) by command of my Lord: of
knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)’"
(Qur’an 17:85)

Continue......

-------------LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 9:34pm

<>

Note: All spirits that proceeded from Allah (S) are holy,
thus, they are Holy Spirits!

It is mentioned
in Qur’an 42:51 :

“It is not fitting for a man that Allah
should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil,
or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah’s permission,
what Allah wills: for he is most high, most wise.” (Q.42:51)

That verse is very important to clarify how revelations come. It
mentioned three ways: By inspiration,
or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal.

By inspiration: receiving the message without seeing any one
(hearing from the inside and having vision).

From behind
a veil: The ascension of Muhammad (S) to the Heaven where he (S) spoke
with Allah (S) behind a veil.

By the sending
of a messenger to reveal: Gabriel/Jibreel (S) come as a man.

The God of the O.T. has (Holy) Spirits by the thousand. It is mentioned
inhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:5-6&version=9 - - Rev.4:5

“And out of the throne preceded lightnings
and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before
the throne, which are the seven Spirits
of God.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:5-6&version=9 - - Rev.4:5

And before the throne there was a sea of
glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the
throne, were four beasts full of eyes
before and behind. Rev.4:6

What are these eyes? They represented Spirits:

…and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Godsent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And the four beasts had each of them six
wings about him; and they were full of eyes
within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God
Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Rev.4:8

Eye represents “spirit” and those spirits are spirits from God Almighty
and they are Holy. What are they doing? They are praising God Almighty saying:
“Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty”.

So we can see God Almighty has Holy Spirits by the thousands! The Spirit
(Ruh) and the angels will stand forth in front of Allah (S):

“The Day that the spirit and the angels
will stand forth in ranks, none
shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will
say what is right.” (Qur’an 78:38)

Br. zainool

-------------LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 2:42am

<>

THE
SOUL

THE HUMAN’S SOUL

As we understood
what is the Human’s Spirit we must know also what the human’s soul is. The word
used for soul in Hebrew is “Nephesh”,in Arabic “Nafs” and in Greek “psuche”.

Now,
what is the “Soul” and how the “Soul” came into being? The bible book of
Genesis stated as follow:

And the LORD
Godformed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ge+2%3A7&section=0&it=kjv&oq=ge%25202%3A7&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ge&ng=2&ncc=2 - - Genesis 2:7

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into
him of My spirit, fall ye down
in obeisance unto him." (Qur’an 38:72)

The bible
verse stated:

“God form man…and breathed into his nostrils the
breath of life…” where as the Qur’an stated: I have…breathed into him of My
spirit (min roohee)

That would mean the
breath of life is the “spirit” (Rooh) and that is the “Spirit” God Almighty
created for Adam (S). I have said
before when Allah (S) says: “We breathed into him of my
spirit!”It does not mean the spirit that Allah (S) bread into Adam
(S) is Allah (S) or part of Allah (S). How do we know that? Allah (S) gives us
the answer in his Noble Book the Qur’an, He mentioned:

“The Day that the spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks,
none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He
will say what is right.” (Qur’an 78:38)

On the Day of Judgment the Spirit (Rooh) and the angels will stand forth in ranks in
front of Allah (S). If the spirit (Ruh) was Allah (S) then that would mean
on the Day of Judgment Allah (S) will stand forth in front of himself which is
incorrect. When Allah (S) used the term “My Spirit” it simply means
everything belongs to Allah (S), example: My throne, My universe, My servants,
My angels, My Spirit etc.; all was createdby Allah (S) for a purpose.

That spirit which Allah (S) breathed into
Adam (S) is the spirit he created for Adam (S) and after that he created all
the spirits of Adam’s descendants at the beginning. They were and are spiritual
being and they were sent here on earth at their appointed time until the Day of
Judgment. It is mentioned in His Noble Book the Qur’an:

“When thy Lord
drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants,
and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I
not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?” They said: “Yea! We do
testify!” (This),lest ye should
say on the Day of Judgment: “Varily, we have been unaware of this”

Or lest ye should say: “It was Our
fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants
after them: wilt Thou then destroy us who took others as partnesrin
worship along with Allah, and we were (merely their) decendants after them;
will you then destroy us because of the deeds of men?”Al-A'raf (The Heights) 7:172-173

All the children of Adam’s were created at the beginning
in spirit (Rooh) and were testifying concerning the one true God-Allah (S) that
He is their Lord, so that, on the Day of Judgment they will have no excuses.

From a “Spirit” we became a living “soul” as
mentioned here in http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ge+2%3A7&section=0&it=kjv&oq=ge%25202%3A7&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ge&ng=2&ncc=2 - “And the LORD formed man of
the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and
man became a living soul.”

When
God Almighty breadth into man the “Spirit” (Rooh) man “became” a living “Soul’
(Nafs/ Nephesh/ psuche); and the “soul” is that which thinketh and liveth; man
became alive, aware and conscious. When the Soul leaves you become unconscious
and unaware of everything yet you are not dead. He Allah (S) rise you up again
when He returns your soul. It mentioned in the Qur’an:

“It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of
all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a
term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will
He show you the truth of all that ye did.” Q.6:60

The soul also dies:

“Nor
can a soul die except by Allah's leave, the term being fixed as by
writing. If any do desire a
reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in
the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that
(serve us with) gratitude.” Q.3:145

The
soul also varies in degrees depending on how you discipline it. In Islam the
first Jehad (struggle) is Jehad of the nafs (the soul). It is mentioned in the
Qur’an 12:53

"Nor do
I absolve my own self (of blame): the
(human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy:
but surely my Lord is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful." 12:53

The soul is one though its state may change from
the one which direct to sin, an-Nafs
al-Amara, to the oft blaming soul, an-Nafs
al- lawwama, to the soul at peace, an-Nafs
al-Mutma’inna which is the final aim of perfection.

The soul at peace has an angel as its ally, who
assists and guides it. That angel cast good into the soul, make it desire
goodness and keep away from evil deeds.

It mentioned in
the Qur’an: “But verily over you (are
appointed angels) to protect you. Q.82:10

For each (such person) there are (angels) in
succession, before and behind him. Q.13:11

He is the irresistible, (watching) from above
over His worshippers, and He sets guardians over you. At length, when
death approaches one of you, Our angels take his soul, and they never fail in
their duty. Q.6:61

Muslims who soul attains that final state “an-Nafs al-Mutma’inna” are those whom
Allah (S) has mentioned in the Qur’an58:22

“Thou wilt not find
any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who oppose Allah
and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their
brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and
strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell
therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him.
They are the Party of Allah (Hezbullah). Truly it is the Party of Allah that
will achieve Success.” (Qur’an 58:22)

The soul nafs
al-Amara is which command you to committing of evil; it has Shaitan
(Satan) as its ally. He gives it (soul) promises of good reward and benefit,
and casts falsehood into it. He instructs it and entices it to do evil. He
gives it more hope and show it falsehood in a form that it would accept and
admire. Allah
(S) warns us:

“O ye
Children of Adam! Let not satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your
parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their
shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see
them: We made the evil ones friends
(only) to those without faith.” Q.7:27

“Then began satan to whisper suggestions to them,
bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them
(before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should
become angels or such beings as live for ever." Q.7:20

When the
suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the
contrary their hearts became hardened, and satan
made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them. Q.6:43

We were reminded:

“O ye who
believe! Guard your own souls: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt
can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He
that will show you the truth of all that ye do. Q.5:105

Evil as an example are people who reject Our signs
and wrong their own souls. Q.7:177

Behold!
how they lie against their own souls! But the (lie) which they invented
will leave them in the lurch. Q. 6:24

Others
they keep away from it, and themselves they keep away; but they only destroy
their own souls, and they perceive it not. Q.6:26

Allah (S) informs us:

“If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls
of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their
backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire- Q.8:50

"On the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish
there were a great distance between it and its evil. But Allah cautions you
(To remember) Himself. And Allah is full of kindness to those that serve
Him." Q.3:30

Every
soul that hath sinned, if it possessed all that is on earth, would fain
give it in ransom: They would declare (their) repentance when they see the penalty: but
the judgment between them will be with justice, and no wrong will be done unto
them. Q.10:54

It also mentioned in the bible Matthew 16:26 “For
what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose
his own soul?
or what shall a man give in exchange for hissoul?”
http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+16:26&translation=str&st=1&new=1&sr=1 - - Mt 16:26

“O ye who
believe! Guard your own souls: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt
can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He
that will show you the truth of all that ye do. Q.5:105

Guarding your own soul is to believe in one true God; all
the prophets in the pass included Jesus (S) thought that same message.

Jesus (S) in his final message
he looks up to the Heaven and gives thanks to God Almighty for affording him to
give eternal life to all whom God Almighty has chosen; and that is to believe
in the one true God and Jesus the Messiah whom He has sent.

“1These words
spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is
come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou
hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to
as many as thou hast given him.”(John 17:1-2)

This is what he said:

“3And
this is life eternal, that they (the disciples or who call themselves Christian) might know thee the
only true God, andJesus Christ, whom thou (the only true
God) hast sent.” (John 17:1-2); And Jesus answered and said
unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the
Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204&version=9 - )

That is the declaration of faith at the time of Jesus (S), in other
words, is to believe in no other deity except the one true God Allah (S) and
Jesus (S) is the messenger of Allah (S) and you will received ETERNAL LIFE.
Same declaration Muslims make except that at the end they say, Muhammad (S) is
the messenger of Allah (S). That is to say: “I testify that there is no other
deity except Allah (S) and I testify that Muhammad (S) is the messenger of
Allah (S).”

Also it is mentioned inhttp://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+19%3A17&section=0&it=kjv&oq=mt%252019%3A17&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=mt&ng=19&ncc=19 - - Matt.19:16-17KJV

“And, behold, one came and said unto him [Jesus (S)], Good Master, what
good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?And he said unto him, why
callest thoume good?
There is none good but one,
that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep
the commandments.”http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+19%3A17&section=0&it=kjv&oq=mt%2019%3A17&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=mt&ng=19&ncc=19 - - Matt.19:16-17KJV

According to Jesus (S) by keeping the
commandments, then you will enter into eternal life; in other words, your soul
will save. He
himself proclaimed the first commandment, he said: “our God” meaning: his God also.

“And Jesus answered him, The
first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: V.30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first
commandment.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:29-30&version=9 - - Mark 12:29-30

“Anyone who breaks
one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so, will
be called least in the kingdom of heaven.....” (Matthew 5:19)

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass
from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Br.
Zainool

-------------LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:55pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is what I meant by how everything arabic is so complicated.

Caringheart, this is not about Arabic, but more on the teachings of Tasawwuf - Purification of the self. Perhaps complicated to you means, you have to delve deeper inside you, inside the Ruh, inorder to understand your own self. In Sufi teachings, there is a saying, KNOW YOURSELF BEFORE YOU KNOW GOD. And not many of us knows ourselves.

Originally posted by Caringheart

ye shall find rest unto your souls

Yes, we will find peace in our souls because He is As-Salam - The Bestower of Peace

Originally posted by Caringheart

When you choose to give it over to God you are on a winning path

In Islam it is called REDHA - Content

Some quotes from your reply -
I have made you - ALLAH AL-KHALIQ (THE CREATOR)
I will sustain you - ALLAH AL-MUQIT (THE SUSTAINER)
I will rescue you.- ALLAH AL-WALIY (The ProtectER)
If you still believe that Jesus was crucified, sad case. It contradicts the AlMighty God being Powerful, being The Mighty, The Greatest who is able to rescue and sustain Jesus because He CREATED Jesus His beloved prophet.

Note: All spirits that proceeded from Allah (S) are holy,
thus, they are Holy Spirits!

Jinn too?

It is mentioned
in Qur’an 42:51 :

“It is not fitting for a man that Allah
should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil,
or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah’s permission,
what Allah wills: for he is most high, most wise.” (Q.42:51)

That verse is very important to clarify how revelations come. It
mentioned three ways: By inspiration,
or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal.

By inspiration: receiving the message without seeing any one
(hearing from the inside and having vision).

From behind
a veil: The ascension of Muhammad (S) to the Heaven where he (S) spoke
with Allah (S) behind a veil.

By the sending
of a messenger to reveal: Gabriel/Jibreel (S) come as a man

So God hides when he talks to people or He sends a spirit to become a man..

The God of the O.T. has (Holy) Spirits by the thousand. It is mentioned
inhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:5-6&version=9 - Rev.4:5

“And out of the throne preceded lightnings
and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before
the throne, which are the seven Spirits
of God.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:5-6&version=9 - Rev.4:5

And before the throne there was a sea of
glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the
throne, were four beasts full of eyes
before and behind. Rev.4:6

What are these eyes? They represented Spirits:

…and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Godsent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

From thousands of spirits to seven. Rev 5:6, half a verse. Forgot the first part of it?

And the four beasts had each of them six
wings about him; and they were full of eyes
within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God
Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Rev.4:8

Eye represents “spirit” and those spirits are spirits from God Almighty
and they are Holy. What are they doing? They are praising God Almighty saying:
“Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty”.

So we can see God Almighty has Holy Spirits by the thousands! The Spirit
(Ruh) and the angels will stand forth in front of Allah (S):

assumptuous. You have taken thousands of spirits, called them seven, then back to whatever number is mentioned. I guess numbers don't mean so much, neither does "full of eyes". Come one come all, buy the new improved slap-chop kitchen tool of the century!

“The Day that the spirit and the angels
will stand forth in ranks, none
shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will
say what is right.” (Qur’an 78:38)

Br. zainool

NOTE: Spirit is singular, not plural, not multiple, as in thousands.

Dang that new math.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 3:49pm

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

So you didn't understand then what I was writing?

Crucified with Christ means having power to overcome the temptations of the flesh... having power to overcome the temptations of the world... through faith...through submission to God, through the example of Jesus.God shows that with Him we have the power to overcome the flesh He demonstrates this through the raising up of the flesh from the dead...Lazurus, and others, through Jesus...and then Jesus Himself is raised up from the dead.This is all to demonstrate the power we have in belief in God.

That was the message.

"In Sufi teachings, there is a saying, KNOW YOURSELF BEFORE YOU KNOW GOD. "

I agree very much with this teaching. It is very similar to what Buddha was trying to teach. But yes, we must look inward to know God.

Salaam,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 1:58am

Yes I dont understand what you are writing. It is easy to say, but I do not know whether it is applicable to everyday life. How do you overcome the temptations of the flesh in real life? Btw one of the ways of overcoming the temptations of the flesh is by fasting. I understand Jesus the Prophet did fast, but I dont know about his followers.

I tried my best to find a platform where we can find similarities in our religion. But come to the crucifixtion part, I am at a loss. Because you still believe that Jesus was crucified. This crucifixion negates the power of God Almighty. He is The Saviour, He is The Powerful, He is the Sustainer, He is the Judge, He is the All-Seeing. There are many many verses in the Quran stating His Majesty. I don't know many verses that describes God Majestic powers in the Bible. Like He who created the whole Universe.

Remember He saved Jonah from the whale? He saved Abraham from the fire, He saved Noah from the flood and many other examples of His assistance when needed. Same too with Jesus. Jesus is not dead. If he is dead, he will not be coming again to this world soon. Dead people cannot return to the world. But that is another story.

"It is easy to say, but I do not know whether it is applicable to
everyday life. How do you overcome the temptations of the flesh in real
life?"

Yes it is applicable in everyday life. I have done it, when I turned my life to God in obedience, and I was able to do this because of knowing the great sacrifice that was made for me. How could I not repay in kind. There is 'no greater love than to lay down your life for another'. Knowing that Jesus laid down His life for me how could I not return that love with obedience to my God and Father... Creator. It is much easier (in fact it is the only way) to defeat the temptations of the flesh and the world when you are thinking of God and not of self.

"Btw one of the ways of overcoming the temptations of the flesh is by fasting. I understand Jesus the Prophet did fast, but I dont know about his followers. "

Yes, fasting and prayer are very much recommended for the Christian. I will say that the practice is not a strong one anymore among the lay people(the ordinary people of the faith). I am sure there are still some that practice it. I try. I admit, it is one of my worst failings. I know it once was an integral part of the Catholic church anyway, and is still encouraged. I wish it was something everyone still practiced, this would make it easier to become disciplined about it. A person who is serious about their faith will do this... fasting and prayer. I know many who pray in prayer circles, and prayer groups, but I do not know how many fast.It is said that there are many benefits to fasting... discipline, becoming closer to God. As one denies the flesh, one opens the spirit. Compassion for those who live daily without food, not to mention the healthful cleansing benefits for the body.

"I don't know many verses that describes God Majestic powers in the Bible. Like He who created the whole Universe. "

If you can, read the book of Job sometime.

"Remember He saved Jonah from the whale? He saved Abraham from the fire, He saved Noah from the flood..."

Yes, God did what was needed to serve His purposes.

It's nice talking with you. Salaam and blessings,Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 10:09pm

Originally posted by Webber

Hi Webber,I just got done listening to a most interesting teaching that made me think of this thread.

Why does God seem sometimes to hide from us?A Rabbi says;God teaches us faith the way a parent teaches a child to walk. At first you stand with the child but as the child gets olderyou move further and further away in the hope that the child will learn to walk to you.God eventually decided to give us more and more room.God stepped back. God said to us, look you know the basic rules now, now you have to be grown ups. It's necessary for human beings, if we're ever going to be more than children.

Seemed worth sharing.

Caringheart

-------------Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 10:17am

Hi Truthnow,

Quoted from about two thirds of the way down page 11 concerning the Holy Spirit:
Quote: It is also in the O.T. --- Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:22-27 (NIV) to have said:
"22 The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

Response: --- You do a great injustice to the Scripture to take something out of context to support an inaccurate argument. --- As you will notice Proverb 8 refers to WISDOM.

Often, Solomon used poetry to describe the attributes of God, and this Proverb is called:
The Excellence of Wisdom

8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;

11 11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.

--- And all of the verses refer to Wisdom which was an ‘attribute’ of God from the beginning.

Placid

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 8:59pm

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927&FID=10 - Remember He saved Jonah from the whale? He saved Abraham from the fire, He saved Noah from the flood and many other examples of His assistance when needed. Same too with Jesus. Jesus is not dead. If he is dead, he will not be coming again to this world soon. Dead people cannot return to the world. But that is another story.

There are many differences in the languages and terminology that sometimes it's hard to see the similaraties. No forget there are those that don't want similarities.

Is true, dead people don't come back, but people don't live 2000+ years either. I'm not sure I understand the Islamic concept of life and death here.

-------------I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 11:42am

Hi Truthnow,

In discussing who the Holy Spirit, it is good to examine what it says in the Quran, is it not?

2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy Spirit.

2:253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.

4:171 People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him.

5:110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

16:102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

17:85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.

26:192-3 Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth -

32:7 and 9 He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay, (9) But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding).

40:15 Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting, -

42:52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

58:22 Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a Spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity (success).

66:12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).

These all speak of the Spirit of God from heaven, do they not? --- And not a human spirit.

Placid

Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 18 February 2013 at 7:47pm

Hi Caringheart and Nur

Quote from Page 10:
Me too. At first I was quite confused between soul and spirit. Now I do have a better understanding. The spirit is the Ruh belonging to Allah. When it enters our body, it becomes the Nafs with desires, lust, passion. And our duty in this earth is to control this Nafs. If we feed it, it becomes bloated and will be our master, however if we ignore it's demands, the status of the Nafs will increase. But the Ruh is still there, because without the Ruh, we are just a piece of useless flesh. Our prophet Muhammad Rasulullah ever mentioned that the biggest jihad or struggle is against one's Nafs (also known as ego).

Response: --- I believe your study of the natural spirit of man (without which we would not have life), is confusing you about the Holy Spirit of God that indwelt Jesus while on earth, and who He said would indwell His disciples after He was taken up to heaven. John 14:15-17.
--- And on the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was given to them in Acts 2.

They were all alive with Jesus having body, soul, and spirit, when Jesus said they would be filled with the Holy Spirit, and “They were endued with power from on High.” Acts 1:8.

However, God gives His Holy Spirit to those He chooses, so it is not something that comes with us at birth. If you check the above post of verses from the Quran I think you will see they refer to the Holy Spirit from heaven, given to individuals.

An easy way to consider it, is that we are naturally three part beings of body, soul, and spirit. --- When the Holy Spirit comes in to ‘indwell’ the body, the Spiritual person becomes a four part being of body, soul, spirit, and Holy Spirit.
At the time of death, the Holy Spirit takes the soul to heaven. --- The body returns to the dust, and the natural spirit returns to God who gave it.

Is that not your understanding, Caringheart, that when Christians are converted, after accepting God’s plan of salvation, then go through the inner struggle, the personal ‘jihad’ to become surrendered and obedient to the will of God. --- Then, as you say, the Holy Spirit comes in as a ‘light’ --- and His presence gives the assurance of eternal life, does it not?

--- So this is when Spiritual Christians say they are ‘Saved’ or ‘Born again’ or ‘Born of the Spirit,’ --- is it not? --- As it says in John 5:
24 Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”