expectations for Clemson basketball at the D1 level

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 3:29 PM

should be higher than those at Wofford. Period. Wofford can be extremely successful, and not reach the NCAAT. No issue with that.

I don't understand the logic behind giving an ACC coach a pass in year 9, after only 2 NCAAT appearances, and 4 years with ZERO postseason... ESPECIALLY when he's at a place where two previous coaches built a winning program and consistent NCAAT team.

Why does he get a pass for not doing what they did... and they had to deal with the same issues you want to throw out for BB.

Why are you bringing up Brownell?

[1]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 3:35 PM

That is not the point of my post. My point is that many of our fans get infatuated by the latest trendy coach or player. I've seen posts talking about how great Wofford's coach is. There is no denying that they have had a great season, but his performance at Wofford wouldn't fly at Clemson, especially among fans here who seem to think Brownell is awful.

I stiil would like to know why BB gets a pass

Re: Why are you bringing up Brownell?

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 5:53 PM

The point is You believe Brad is the greatest thing since slice bread and Clemson can not do any better than Brownell.....it is always the fans, administration, players, etc fault but never Brownell’s when we lose a game......the most important piece of a successful basketball program ‘s puzzle is the head coach......that is why some of these smaller schools make it to the Big Dance consistently and do very well when they get there......I have nothing against Brad but when it comes to coaching he is average at best......and yes I think Clemson CAN get a better coach whenever that time comes......next year is his 10th I think and I don’t see this program making it back to the dance any time soon based on what we loss this season and have coming back and in the pipeline......do you..... Go Tigers!!!!!

That's not close to being what I think.

[1]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 9:54 PM

I do think Brad is a very good coach, and solid recruiter, and he has overachieved at Clemson relative to our program's history and current level of support. I don't see how any realistic Clemson fan can be disappointed by his tenure given the fact that we fund basketball so poorly and have such inconsistent fan support.

As I've stated many times, I believe our goal as a program should be to make the NCAAs every year. I also believe that Brad is capable of getting us there. However, for that to happen, we must support basketball at Clemson better. So for you to say that I think what we have now is the best we can get, that is absolutely wrong. I just don't think changing coaches is likely to improve what is currently a middle of the pack ACC program, and it could make it a lot worse.

Re: expectations for Clemson basketball at the D1 level

Answer: Failure is accepted in the BB program at Clemson. Don't see this changing. Must admit, I'm not a BB fan, so I could care less. Don't follow it.

It would be if you hired the right AD.

TDP specifically wanted to improved the basketball program when he was hired. That's why he hired Oliver Purnell.

DRad's only goal is to improve facilities and ride the success of Dabo and the football program, bring up the lagging terrible programs. He is afraid to make a splash hire in bkball and his legacy if things got worse.

Re: expectations for Clemson basketball at the D1 level

should be higher than those at Wofford. Period. Wofford can be extremely successful, and not reach the NCAAT. No issue with that.

I don't understand the logic behind giving an ACC coach a pass in year 9, after only 2 NCAAT appearances, and 4 years with ZERO postseason... ESPECIALLY when he's at a place where two previous coaches built a winning program and consistent NCAAT team.

Why does he get a pass for not doing what they did... and they had to deal with the same issues you want to throw out for BB.

Why would CBB need a pass in year 9 when he won 20 games and made the postseason. Not sure how familiar you are with Clemson basketball history but this is a heck of a successful season.

Re: expectations for Clemson basketball at the D1 level

should be higher than those at Wofford. Period. Wofford can be extremely successful, and not reach the NCAAT. No issue with that.

I don't understand the logic behind giving an ACC coach a pass in year 9, after only 2 NCAAT appearances, and 4 years with ZERO postseason... ESPECIALLY when he's at a place where two previous coaches built a winning program and consistent NCAAT team.

Why does he get a pass for not doing what they did... and they had to deal with the same issues you want to throw out for BB.

Why would CBB need a pass in year 9 when he won 20 games and made the postseason. Not sure how familiar you are with Clemson basketball history but this is a heck of a successful season.

I would point out he accomplished 20 wins without the luxury of recruiting JUCO players, marginal academic guys or buying players from the AAU handlers. All three are stables of the hot coaches many of you covet

I’m not wrong. Please look back at the NIT field the last 10 years.

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 8:24 PM

There are very few .500 teams.

Mid-major regular season conference champs who don’t get into the NCAAs are now automatic bids for the NIT. It’s much harder that it used to be for major conference teams to get in. That’s why there are other tournaments now, like the CBI, because there are some solid teams who qualify for postseason play.

Re: I guess that's why we've never paid to be in

Posted: Mar 24, 2019 7:45 AM

We were above .500 in 2012, 2015, and 2016 yet didn’t make the NIT. It does actually seem marginally more difficult to get into the NIT now than it did in past decades. I do remember in the past thinking if we can get to 15 wins at least we will be in the NIT. Of course, this is not really a great argument for keeping a coach if our goal is the NCAAs though!

Re: expectations for Clemson basketball at the D1 level

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 6:01 PM

Really.....thought we had 4 starting seniors coming back and were a pre-season Top 25 team in most polls......am I missing something....cause I don’t think we were invited to the Big Dance.....Go Tigers !!!!!!

I think it's important on a relational level.

A lot of basketball players are black guys and have had experiences in life that is difficult to understand unless you have lived those situations.

That's just real life stuff. I think all coaching staffs have minority coaches on their staff for those reasons. It's important to have those types of mentors in these athlete's lives.

Of course it doesn't have to be a head coach. But Clemson basketball has so many inherent disadvantages, if you could find that Tony Elliott type of guy... A young assistant who can relate on such a real level and looking to prove himself...that's my ideal candidate.

Re: Need a young guy. Age matters imo.

Posted: Mar 24, 2019 4:17 AM

You are absolutely correct, in that race shouldn't matter but, unfortunately, it does and in a big way. With a majority of players being black, it is important to have coaches with whom they can relate and have shared life experiences.

Re: Before you post that you want us to get Wofford's coach.

[1]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 3:42 PM

I agree Judge . I am looking at Wes Miller from UNC Greensboro. He's only 36 and he's been SoCon coach of the year twice and having a great year this year . He's young and seems to be hungry . But , yes, his mentor was Ole Roy .

You’re still at it, huh?***

Re: You’re still at it, huh?***

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 4:02 PM

I respect anyone that has that many posts and points like the Judge.

However, his schtick of defending Brownell has become old, predictable and quit frankly nauseating. We get it, you like Brownell(at an unhealthy rate) but there comes a point where one has to stop. He’s went beyond that point and I don’t think the judge understands it.

I'm not defending Brownell as much as I am our program.

[3]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 4:08 PM

I think it's ridiculous to see so much criticism of our coaches and players on here, when most "fans" doing the whining and complaining have no idea how poorly we support basketball at Clemson. I regularly see comments acting like we pay Brownell an astronomical salary, and acting like we deserve a medal for upgrading Littlejohn, and when the top recruits and huge wins don't come rolling in, it must be because our coach stinks.

I do think Brad is a great coach who has done a lot given the really hard job Clemson is. As I've said before, I am open to us going in a different direction, but only if it means a much improved environment for basketball at Clemson (i.e., better support from administration and fans).

Finally, if you think my defense of the program is nauseating, I hope you also find the ridiculous criticism of our program nauseating as well. Most of my posts are in response to those criticisms.

I guess this thread was switching to a

He was also transitioning them from D II to D I

[3]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 3:58 PM

In those first 8 years, a program with less historical tradition than us. Funny how you completely leave that out. Look at his last 10 years since that transition was completed. They are now very formidable as a low major. From nothing

Okay.***

You cited how long it took him to start winning

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 4:27 PM

I gave you the primary reason, which you conveniently ignored to fit your narrative. If I remember correctly Young interviewed when BB was hired. So if there is an opening at some point, I'd expect him to get a strong look based on what he's done since that last interview.

5 conference championships in 10 years***

I’m not ignoring anything.

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 7:43 PM

The facts are that he has coached his team over the past 17 years to an overall record barely above .500. Yes he had some losing seasons early on, but also as recently as two years ago. I don’t understand the fascination with him being this amazing coach, especially one who would be likely to succeed at a program like Clemson. Maybe it’s because he is a local coach. I can’t imagine this much love for him if he coached a small school in Missouri.

Would you take a rebuilding year along the way

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 8:26 PM

for 5 conference championships over a 10 year period? A couple of those when Davidson was ruling the SoCon. The guy knows how to build a team. He knows how to spot under the radar talent. He gets his players to play his offensive system at an extremely high level. You take his first 7 years out of the equation when they were moving up and adjusting, and he's well over .500.

Why wouldn't you look at a local guy like that with local recruiting relationships and a stellar reputation? We sure did when we hired Brad and his resume is only better since then

Re: JUDGE KELLER = PAULA BROWNELL ??????

Gotta be a hidden agenda here...either BB's wife or a serious man crush...

If it was Paula Brownell she would just tell you to F off. I take that back, Paula is much to nice and far to classy to tell you that but someone should tell you that.

All Judge has done is point out facts to people. Over and over and over. Some people are just too thick to get it. Here ya go, back to back 20 win seasons, 5th postseason in 9 years. 2 NCAA appearances with advancement. Not to mention graduating guys and no off court problems. Not buying players or hiring their dads either. My god our fan base sucks and it’s embarrassing. Drop mic.

I'll weigh in...

[1]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 5:36 PM

Judge started this thread with something like 'before y'all start drooling over the Wofford coach' just as the Wofford team (btw - the best team in the state this year) finished up within 6 points of Kentucky. Now if you didn't want opinions on Young, Clemson and or Brownell then don't start the thread. Judge and you can present all the facts your internet searches can produce, but some folks want to be in the Big Dance more often. My take....Judge started it.

The only year we may have a gripe is Brad's

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 9:10 PM

second year when we were 8-8 in the league. Those other years we as usual struggled to beat good teams. If their is one thing that's obvious, whether it's the dance or NIT, those doing the selecting care a lot about who you best.

Also remember the ACC was much smaller when Cliff, Barnes and OP were coaching. The NIT wants ACC teams. How many ACC teams were in the NIT those years we weren't selected under Brad? Probably just more deserving league teams than us would be my guess

You're still downplaying how much harder the NIT is

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 10:36 PM

to get into these days.

Starting in 2006, the NIT began awarding automatic bids to mid-major teams who won their conference's regular season but not their conference tournament. This left much fewer available spots than in years prior.

Starting in 2007, the NIT was reduced from a 40 team field to a 32 team field. That reduced the available spots further.

These three Brad Brownell teams did not get an NIT invite:

2011-2012: 16-15 overall, 8-8 in ACC (7th in ACC); there were 11 automatic qualifiers that year.2014-2015: 16-15 overall, 8-10 in ACC (9th in ACC); there were 12 automatic qualifiers that year.2015-2016: 17-14 overall, 10-8 in ACC (7th in ACC); there were 15 automatic qualifiers that year.

As you can see, the NIT is much more difficult to get into now.

Given all of that, there is no way these previous Clemson NIT teams would've made it into the current NIT:

Re: The only fact that matters... (Loooong)

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 9:47 PM

Isn't Judge's loyalty. Nor is it your (plural) obnoxious disloyalty.

It's DRad's loyalty.

My opinion doesn't matter much, because i don't pay BB's or DR's salary. But it means just as much as some of you lynchmobbers' (that's not a racial reference, since lynchmobs have an inglorious history that precedes the KKK) opinions who also don't contribute a dime.

If you're going to be disloyal to our current coach, do us all the favor of removing your TigerPaw lapel pin when you dine with your Duke cronies tomorrow.

No, i don't get to establish an artificial litmus test for who is a true Tiger. Neither do you.

For the last 10 days you've become increasingly obnoxious about wanting the second-winningest coach in Clemson history fired. Debate, argue, research and recite stunted statistics all you want.

But now you've moved the goalposts: now you're berating Brownell's defenders?

What are you going to do if DRad doesn't fire BB the instant he steps off the plane after he returns to Clemson following the end of our season? Berate DRad? Crap your diaper? Burn your Iptay card? I know one thing you won't do: you'll never burn your "wannabe a Dookie" undershirt.

Do me a favor: don't introduce yourself at the next game. I have no desire to know you in your real life.

Are you talking to me?

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 10:02 PM

Where have I called for Brad to be fired? I'm on the record all over this board that he's back next year unless he leaves on his own. Now after next year, I think it's a foregone conclusion he's let go unless they basically come out of no where. Next year looks bad, and coaches in year 10 normally dont survive those type years. That said, I'll be pulling for them tomorrow, and every game next year, no matter who the coach is. My hope would be we shock the world, but I dont see that honestly.

But after 9 years I do firmly believe Brad's tenure has run its course. It happens. He's been here longer than anyone since Cliff in like forever. If he's here next year, and it's as bad as it looks on paper, it will be a bad situation for him and the school. I really don't want to see that. I like the guy

How have I denigrated Judge?

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 11:45 PM

We disagree on the future of the program. I think barring a miracle after next year the decision on Brad is automatic. I said I'd be pulling for them tomorrow, and next year. I don't pull for any coach to fail so that they are fired, I want them all to succeed. I supported Brad for years.

But things run there course sometimes. Whether that's this year with Brad leaving on his own, or next year after what looks like it will be an extremely tough year, eventually it's happening. Next year is going to be a step back, and in year 10, that's not a good situation for the coach or program.

And I dont believe church is for team colors, our focus should be on far greater things

Kinda like Clemson??

[1]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 6:05 PM

Live & Die by the 3 and until we recruit guys who can shoot WELL, things will never change here and the program will continue to fail until a change is made at the top. BB doesn't know offense and everyday is Groundhog Day in Clemson basketball land.

When we've been picked low we've normally

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 11:04 PM

over performed, but most of those times we've had veterans leading the way. Next year we'll have one senior in White, 3 juniors in Simms, Baehre and Trapp, 4 sophomores in Newman, Tyson, Jemison and William, and the 3 incoming freshmen. That leaves 2 open scholarships. We could really use two impact grad transfers, and by impact I mean starters. That happens we could surprise. But the roster as it stands now looks like one that will really struggle

I would like to see us get Rayjon Tucker from Arkansas-Little Rock.

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 11:32 PM

He averaged 20 points per game for them as a guard/forward. He is originally from Charlotte and we actually recruited him in high school. He is a redshirt junior, and as a grad transfer he would have one year to play. He will be a hot commodity this offseason.

I think we have a shot seeing as how we

Posted: Mar 23, 2019 11:52 PM

recruited him out of high school and he's from Charlotte. He's a PG and that's a huge need next year. But he'll be one of the hottest transfers out there with some big dogs coming after him. Landing him would be a coup and a big leg up on next year not being as poor as it looks right now. We land him and another shooter who can play immediately and we could surprise next year. We need offensive production badly next year

Re: Before you post that you want us to get Wofford's coach.

[2]
Posted: Mar 23, 2019 7:16 PM

I will have to say in Mike Young’s defense he is a great HC. We he took over Wofford’s BB program the facilities were sub par and they were moving up to the D-1 level. Mike stays at Wofford because it’s a great place to work. It is not about the money. I believe Coach Young probably making less than $300,000 per year. One of the things I love about Wofford’s AD Richard Johnson is he is very patient. He gives his coaches like Mike Young time to build a team that can be consistently competitive every for year, which they have been the last 6 or 7 years. Mike has coached Wofford to some big wins to. He is 5 for 5 when playing for the SoCon Tournament Championship. They beat the coots by 20 points this year, in 2017 that beat NC in Chapel Hill. Something we have never done. The Terriers have made the NCAA tournament 5 times since 2010. Since 2009-2010 Young has had a winning conference record every year but 1 in 2012-2013.

I agree with you Judge. I don’t think Mike Young would be a good fit at Clemson because of his age. Clemson needs to either get behind Coach Brownell or hire a energetic , young , aggressive HC whose is an up and coming coach with great potential. IMO we must take a chance on a young guy. Get behind him and show fan support and spend more money on basketball and give him time to change CLEMSON BB Culture. But the administration has to be on board. If they are not going to show the money and give the fans something to get excited about so fans will get behind the team and give 110% support, then I would say get use to more of the same with the men’s Basketball program no matter who is HC.

Re: Before you post that you want us to get Wofford's coach.

Posted: Mar 24, 2019 5:55 AM

Brownell has one more year. There is more talent at Clemson than most people realize. Good talent coming in also. The problem is PLAYER development . This is his biggest weakness. He has one year to turn the program. If Clemson can win the NIT, this would be a life -saver for BB. Let's see what is going to happen. I'm not optimistic but anything is possible.