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Originally posted by abeltensorThere is a reason you and alot of other people, my self included, are getting extremely bored with this game. It is by nature extremely boring.

There is no endgame. (thats correct.) Every class is a Healer/DPS/Tank so wheres the skill when all people do is zerg all the PvE content. Even in a 5 man group there are no defined roles to play. No one takes the blame or all the glory. Everything about this game is hand-holding. You enter a new zone, You find the scout then head for the heart thats near your level. You kill stuff or play a silly minigame, then you explore a bit, but its not really exporing because its all marked on your minimap. When you are tired of that, you do your Personal story which isnt that personal because by around lvl 35 everyone has the same storyline with minor details changed. Rinse and repeat.

I absolutely hate the post WoW MMO era. Pre-wow, it took hours to get one level, getting a reward ment working for it, quests were special events that you did to get unique items and even learning new skills was a mystery in the begining. Now everything is on rails. Theres no running across the direlands to get to BSD like in AC or going on a 4 hour epic corpse run because you died to a bunch of level 50 brownies in a zone 3 hours away from your bind point like in EQ. with the linear leveling system that GW2 has in place, you essentually hit the climax of the game around lvl 5 when you obtain your skills and then everything else just is an after thought.

IMO, After vinilla wow, the genera known as the MMO died. All we have left are large chat rooms with detailed graphical UIs and even then with the new phasing enviroment and other features of that nature, the social aspects of these games get lost in translation so to speak. The devs who are making these games are missing the point by pushing so much on the idea that they need capture a causal audiance of players because MMos by definition are not causial games. You are supposed to get invested in the character you created. You are supposed to put a lot of time and effort into playing these games to achieve the smallest of achievements. Devs seem to think that if they make things more convieniant then the game will be better. This is false, Extremely false.

Thats your opinion not many share that point of vieuw rofl.Dont generalise and no end game ? seriously ? stop reading after that sentence btw lolz

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Lol im making a video on endgame for GW2 just like my other 2. People need to stop equating endgame=Raiding/Gear grind.

Endgame is a whole lot broader then just that. I think that's where the problem comes in with these games. People have the wrong definition of what end game really is. And naturally expect soon as they hit cap to go off on a magical raid grind fest and look uber. When they don't get that boom this game sucks I have nothing to do. When in reality they problably got 100 things to do just not what they used to.

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Lol im making a video on endgame for GW2 just like my other 2. People need to stop equating endgame=Raiding/Gear grind.

Endgame is a whole lot broader then just that. I think that's where the problem comes in with these games. People have the wrong definition of what end game really is. And naturally expect soon as they hit cap to go off on a magical raid grind fest and look uber. When they don't get that boom this game sucks I have nothing to do. When in reality they problably got 100 things to do just not what they used to.

You can't just make something up and call it endgame. Especially when that content is just an afterthought in better games - in addition to actual endgame that people expect, and indeed, WANT.

Oh, I'm not "used to" farming some platforming sections? Well shit, I don't WANT to get used to something like that -.-

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You see what you did there you called it (making something up) Which means YOU in particular dont know the true meaning of endgame. The true definition of end game is what happens at the end of character progression. That encompasses everything at that point. Now what each person likes is totally different. So what YOU actually want to do for endgame may not be what the game completely offers. Now in this case I don't recall this game every promoting it be a omega raiding game. They went as far as saying raids consists mainly of five people/pvp/world map completion/ and character achievements. How in the world did anyone buy the game knowing that. Can even act 1% shocked now that you actually are faced with the very thing they said from the beginning.

Which leads me to believe alot of people didn't read or listen or only read and listen to what they wanted to. And not the truth of what was being said. I am not shocked I have no super raid big baddy to chase. Or shocked the story quest actually end because frankly i knew that from the minute i swiped my credit card.

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This thread here is a great example that we are all different. Just came from another thread where GW2 is the best ever and saying the tons of people playing is getting better in all zones from 1-80 and pvp wvw blah blah.... lol and duh its a unknown server being talked about.

If it helps I have not played in about 2 weeks. For ME getting new dyes are nice but like most mmos the lack or items kills it for me. I love though being able to change the look of your armor so it looks like lvl 60 and up. This is the 1st mmo I had to stop because I was lvling way to fast.

But its free 2 play. A one time fee does not = monthly pay. For me again I just wish the chat was better. Tried over 10 server changes and just gave up. From morning till nite only 1-5 people talked. And on all those it had to be stupid chat or they get up set.

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" If the endgame isn't something I like, then that means it must be bad/doesn't exist."What if what people are trying to say is: if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

Going by that I can totally see it. [imo]GW2 in its obsession with being different, falls flat on its face.[/imo] Instead of *tweaking* what needed tweaking in the formula and adding elsewhere it was needed. The square peg is now just a different shape (not a circle obv) for the sake of being "different".

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Originally posted by NBlitz" If the endgame isn't something I like, then that means it must be bad/doesn't exist." What if what people are trying to say is: if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

Going by that I can totally see it. [imo]GW2 in its obsession with being different, falls flat on its face.[/imo] Instead of *tweaking* what needed tweaking in the formula and adding elsewhere it was needed. The square peg is now just a different shape (not a circle obv) for the sake of being "different".

how do you figure? endgame is actually very similar to all other themepark MMOs you can do dungeons, do PVP, do PVE quests, craft.. basically everything you can do in any other MMO just without the raids. Also got the added benefit of going for map completion and jump puzzles as well

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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Originally posted by NBlitz" If the endgame isn't something I like, then that means it must be bad/doesn't exist." What if what people are trying to say is: if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

Going by that I can totally see it. [imo]GW2 in its obsession with being different, falls flat on its face.[/imo] Instead of *tweaking* what needed tweaking in the formula and adding elsewhere it was needed. The square peg is now just a different shape (not a circle obv) for the sake of being "different".

Nah, they actually changed exactly what needed to be changed for me. Not everyone will agree with that though. I mean I imagine some felt the same way you did when they came out with Color Televisions.

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Originally posted by NBlitz" If the endgame isn't something I like, then that means it must be bad/doesn't exist." What if what people are trying to say is: if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

Going by that I can totally see it. [imo]GW2 in its obsession with being different, falls flat on its face.[/imo] Instead of *tweaking* what needed tweaking in the formula and adding elsewhere it was needed. The square peg is now just a different shape (not a circle obv) for the sake of being "different".

how do you figure? endgame is actually very similar to all other themepark MMOs you can do dungeons, do PVP, do PVE quests, craft.. basically everything you can do in any other MMO just without the raids. Also got the added benefit of going for map completion and jump puzzles as well

WvW is better than other theme park battlegrounds. Spvp is better than other theme park arena pvp. Best designed theme park game world. Best pve with the implementation of dynamic events. It does away with a lot stupid mmo mechanics and is very casual friendly. Most of the people complaining about this game are hardcore, sandboxes and traditionalists.

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Originally posted by NBlitz" If the endgame isn't something I like, then that means it must be bad/doesn't exist." What if what people are trying to say is: if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

Going by that I can totally see it. [imo]GW2 in its obsession with being different, falls flat on its face.[/imo] Instead of *tweaking* what needed tweaking in the formula and adding elsewhere it was needed. The square peg is now just a different shape (not a circle obv) for the sake of being "different".

how do you figure? endgame is actually very similar to all other themepark MMOs you can do dungeons, do PVP, do PVE quests, craft.. basically everything you can do in any other MMO just without the raids. Also got the added benefit of going for map completion and jump puzzles as well

WvW is better than other theme park battlegrounds. Spvp is better than other theme park arena pvp. Best designed theme park game world. Best pve with the implementation of dynamic events. It does away with a lot stupid mmo mechanics and is very casual friendly. Most of the people complaining about this game are hardcore, sandboxes and traditionalists.

i agree but i was just stating people keep saying GW2 is missing endgame yet I don't see how? it has the endgame others have without raiding and much more enjoyable PVP/ PVE questing imho.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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Originally posted by NBlitz" If the endgame isn't something I like, then that means it must be bad/doesn't exist." What if what people are trying to say is: if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

Going by that I can totally see it. [imo]GW2 in its obsession with being different, falls flat on its face.[/imo] Instead of *tweaking* what needed tweaking in the formula and adding elsewhere it was needed. The square peg is now just a different shape (not a circle obv) for the sake of being "different".

how do you figure? endgame is actually very similar to all other themepark MMOs you can do dungeons, do PVP, do PVE quests, craft.. basically everything you can do in any other MMO just without the raids. Also got the added benefit of going for map completion and jump puzzles as well

WvW is better than other theme park battlegrounds. Spvp is better than other theme park arena pvp. Best designed theme park game world. Best pve with the implementation of dynamic events. It does away with a lot stupid mmo mechanics and is very casual friendly. Most of the people complaining about this game are hardcore, sandboxes and traditionalists.

i agree but i was just stating people keep saying GW2 is missing endgame yet I don't see how? it has the endgame others have without raiding and much more enjoyable PVP/ PVE questing imho.

This really... and if you have already reached 80 and exhausted everything the game has to offer then haven't you enjoyed the adventures you had prior?

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Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by GeezerGamerWhy is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick.Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right?If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by GeezerGamerWhy is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick.Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right?If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

Your post is colored by bias. Everything you spouted about Rift is in my view monotonous and boring. Instant Adventures are the same 5 combination of quests run by a group of people over and over. Run to the castle, kill undead until boss pops, kill it, then get teleported to burn undead, then go here and zerg this group of enemies, then rinse and repeat until you're dying of boredom (which won't take long). Dynamic my butt. Chronicles are scaled down versions of raids which isn't even worth bringing up in a GW2 forum since most of the people playing it are here because they don't like the typical MMO formula, which includes raiding. PvP is not going to get you roasted if you don't have the best gear, Golds drop like candy and exotics are a single digit % better, and craftable with a couple days work at the most if you are that much of a min/maxer. Dailies? That someone offered that as 'content' is mind-boggling, I'll just leave that alone. Zone invasions in Rift are the most repetitive things in that game and the only thing spontaneous about them is when they start, to rave about that then complain about anything in GW2 is nothing short of hypocritical.

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by GeezerGamerWhy is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick.Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right?If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

Your post is colored by bias. Everything you spouted about Rift is in my view monotonous and boring. Instant Adventures are the same 5 combination of quests run by a group of people over and over. Run to the castle, kill undead until boss pops, kill it, then get teleported to burn undead, then go here and zerg this group of enemies, then rinse and repeat until you're dying of boredom (which won't take long). Dynamic my butt. Chronicles are scaled down versions of raids which isn't even worth bringing up in a GW2 forum since most of the people playing it are here because they don't like the typical MMO formula, which includes raiding. PvP is not going to get you roasted if you don't have the best gear, Golds drop like candy and exotics are a single digit % better, and craftable with a couple days work at the most if you are that much of a min/maxer. Dailies? That someone offered that as 'content' is mind-boggling, I'll just leave that alone. Zone invasions in Rift are the most repetitive things in that game and the only thing spontaneous about them is when they start, to rave about that then complain about anything in GW2 is nothing short of hypocritical.

Well, What's GW2 offer instead? And don't give me some "go finish the maps" Yeah, I can down level to 20 and that's endgame? I don't think so. Giving me the EXACT same thing to do as if I were leveling an alt, is hardly endgame content.

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by GeezerGamerWhy is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick.Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right?If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

Your post is colored by bias. Everything you spouted about Rift is in my view monotonous and boring. Instant Adventures are the same 5 combination of quests run by a group of people over and over. Run to the castle, kill undead until boss pops, kill it, then get teleported to burn undead, then go here and zerg this group of enemies, then rinse and repeat until you're dying of boredom (which won't take long). Dynamic my butt. Chronicles are scaled down versions of raids which isn't even worth bringing up in a GW2 forum since most of the people playing it are here because they don't like the typical MMO formula, which includes raiding. PvP is not going to get you roasted if you don't have the best gear, Golds drop like candy and exotics are a single digit % better, and craftable with a couple days work at the most if you are that much of a min/maxer. Dailies? That someone offered that as 'content' is mind-boggling, I'll just leave that alone. Zone invasions in Rift are the most repetitive things in that game and the only thing spontaneous about them is when they start, to rave about that then complain about anything in GW2 is nothing short of hypocritical.

Well, What's GW2 offer instead? And don't give me some "go finish the maps" Yeah, I can down level to 20 and that's endgame? I don't think so.

"I don't think so" is not a valid defense for anything as down-leveling neither makes you feeble (which you'd know if you actually played well into the game) nor is it worthless for someone who is at level cap. You still get drops your level, it's a great way to make money, and best yet they're the most populated areas aside from Orr, so it's the best place to be social and help others out. If you want to stick to endgame, there are huge, mass parties running CONSTANTLY in the 75+ zones as people try to build karma for either legendaries or karma skins, and clearing the temples of the Gods takes actual coordination (particularly Lyssa). Do the dungeons if you miss them in Rift or ignore them if you don't. 1 gold will get you a full set of gold gear, and if you have anyhting less than 4g by the time you're 80 you're doing something wrong.

Everything you listed there as a + for Rift exists in GW2 and then some, GW2 just isn't going to slap a label on it and shove it down your throat nor is it going to commit you to it in order to be competitive. If you need your game to force you to do something in order to have a reason to do it, you're not looking for a game, you're looking for a job.