Speculating is a lot of fun. Haven't you watched that scene at the barbers in "Coming to America" when Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall play old codgers debating who was better out of various vintage-era boxers?

And for the record, I just lurvved that singer from the band "Sexual Chocolate". "Man, that boy is good!"

Brian, I didnt answer because I am lazy some of what I want to say would be like writing a book. I felt like your comment was more frustration and not really your exact truth on kata, more to get your point across. Of course im most likely wrong lol..

I understand where your coming from, kata is ultimately useless without other factors weighing in on its overall development. But, IMO some of which can still be trained if brought to the persons attention through solo kata training. Mainly visualization, intent, balance, posture, control, memory, breathing, strength etc.. very basic things. Can be learned & improved through kata.

I was also looking for a better way to explain myself. Which is what the link above is for, interesting read none the less.

BTW, Not that it was directed at me or anything, but just to clarify. I didnt know you did American Goju, personally makes no difference to me.. like you said any karate can be strong. (even ATA ) and I dont consider Shotokan watered down at all. I never bought into the myth of uber deadly techniques being changed or left out.

Just like to point out something. Machida is not an average person. For one, consider hes still a relatively large & strong young person with no skills... would you still want to fight him? Add in his natural attributes which aid anything he may know.

He excelled in karate tournaments, and he excelled in MMA. Which leads me to believe he would of excelled at Football or Chess if thats what he chose. Most fighters and world class athletes train above and beyond what average fighters and athletes do. They attain skills and skill sets which are related to their own skills. And they attain & maintain them quicker and longer, probably for many reasons out of their control. An average 6-8 hour MMA day covers about two weeks in your average 3x a week 1hour martial artist regiment. HS Wrestlers remember two a days? If corner store Karate was like that we probably would not be having this discussion.

Quote: BTW, shotokan has been mocked and claimed to be watered down by those who are now praising Machida here, pfft...lol!!

Actually Brian, its interesting that you mention that, becuase its not his success which causes me to clearly see his Shotokan training, but its the large number of fights which end in decision. He still retains the in and out sportive methods that modern shotokan sport karate has rather than the live or die okinawan diving straight in methods. I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.

I should have known.

I guess one day we will have a true okinawan master like yourself that will completely dominate the mma world by just the use of kata and karate training. pfft....

Brian, I am no master. I am just a student still trying to get the basics down.

Quote: Wrong. Chuck Liddell's techniques come from a katacentric system similar to many okinawan karate styles. Its just that after Hack learned the system and how to fight with it he eliminated the kata and called it Hawaiian Kempo. I have seen the similarities first hand since I used to train with a Hawaiian 8th Dan trained by William Chow. I used to help him prepare his one student for his BB.

But kata is not used anymore, so to credit kata to his striking is misleading.

It is easy to credit kata, doesn't make those credits worthy. Okinawan striking is only good because it was from china, Chinese is only good because it came from India, was only good because it came from what ever! (just making a point i know this is not the history....)

But that's just it creative. Maybe its your memory or just your thinking is all fouled up, but I was responding to your question of using "anything that appears similar to karate" not kata specifically. Its easy to change your story mid stream. But I know what you said and will point it out with YOUR own quotes. Now if you would like to ask a different question to fit you needs go ahead.

I do not consider Chucks striking to "appear similar to karate" strikes.

In your post you clearly attempt to add weight to the use of kata by by saying:

"chuck leddells techniques come from a KATACENTRIC system similar to many okinawan karate styles"

You added specificity to kata. - Are your arguements not holding up? Is it you who is attempting to change the discussion?

Again, I don't see anything specifically karate like in Chucks striking....I only assume you were talking about his striking, or were you referring to his grappling techniques being learned from katacentric Okinawan like systems Medulanet?

So is there anyone else who uses karate (like) strikes in UFC? Not that I can think of.

Could I ask you to describe tyson method's of countering the jab? Its on the video?If ever you would like to discuss boxing in great depth. Technicaly particuler defensive boxing I would like that. perhaps on the boxing thread?

Quote:I was reluctant to put the video on Youtube for all the "that wouldn't work" type comments you invariably get from keyboard ninjas. In the end I'm fairly thick skinned so I put it on anyway. I'm not the world's best fighter - "this is who I am and what I do" is my attitude.

Get respect for posting them. It is light sparring so nothing more could be expected. Regards keyboard ninjas invite them to train if they are local. Personaly I wouldnt just being a mere student.