Yeah, especially the bomb tier and the lvl 90 tier. We get a whole talent tier to choose between 'st bomb, cleave bomb and aoe + snare bomb' and our level cap ultimate talents are... stand in this circle to do more damage/regen mana, spam evocation every minute to do more damage/regen mana and put up a barrier to do more damage/regen mana. Might have worked better as a different tier but while the concept of the rune was cool to me at first to novelty quickly wore off.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

Or we can just light up our torches, pick up our pitchforks and this time scream "Akraen! Akraen!" instead of "Lhivera! Lhivera!" like last time. The similarities are plenty - Lhivera plays Frost, Akraen plays Frost. Lhivera is active on forums, so is Akraen. Lhivera told us to trust him, Akraen wants us to trust him too.

Too many coincidences. I don't think you should be in charge of leading mages for WoD because all you'll do is beg for water elemental cosmetic updates and tell everyone that Arcane is fine because you're jealous.

There I think I covered everything

Edit: sorry to the people who weren't here so they don't know these let's say jokes I'm of course not insulting anyone, just remembering some fun times.

So do the math. If you count the new tier as "Empty" right now, then ~over half of our talents' slots are being replaced. However, we don't know if other classes are getting that much treatment to their talents (then again, most of them don't need an overhaul)

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Malzra

but while the concept of the rune was cool to me at first to novelty quickly wore off.

The novelty of the L90 tier is that it wasn't the beta Polymorph-enhancer tier and it wasn't the choice between Slow, Dragon's Breath, and Blast Wave (though it would have been better if it was). You finally hit 90, cast Evo w/o a cooldown or Rune once and go "... Oh. I have to do this every single minute/every single time before I fight something out in the world now, don't I?".

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Or we can just light up our torches, pick up our pitchforks and this time scream "Akraen! Akraen!" instead of "[Redacted]! [Redacted]"

You know the rules....

But all in all I feel we have a stronger more knowledgeable community going into this beta than the last one, Cata drove a lot of the TC mage community away and it really showed when we were largely untested coming out of the beta. Things will be different this time for sure.

@polar as for those "hefty tweaks" for arcane, were halfway to being ok shhh don't tell them to change anything.

But all in all I feel we have a stronger more knowledgeable community going into this beta than the last one, Cata drove a lot of the TC mage community away and it really showed when we were largely untested coming out of the beta. Things will be different this time for sure.

Assuming we're on point with spotting the bullshit, AND they're willing to change it, sure. I'm just not going to go in with blind optimism, like I did going into MoP from Cata, and look where it got us.

Originally Posted by voltaa

@polar as for those "hefty tweaks" for arcane, were halfway to being ok shhh don't tell them to change anything.

Y'know, I'm starting to think we don't see as eye-to-eye as we both seem we do.
TBH I liked Cata's design more than MoP, but it was still a pile of crap in Cata as well, kinda like having a pile of crap vs a pile of crap with some sprinkles on it. It's still crap, but at least it looks slightly nicer.

Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
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Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

Mags aren't underperforming at all.
Arcane is extremely potent for hc raiding (if your raid takes your rune into consideration).
Sure, MoP has been an overall Warlock expansion - but Mages have never been stronger in MoP than they are right now.
And Mages perform better than almost every other class apart from warlocks.
If you're out dps'd by a shadowpriest then lol. Thats on you.
For reference check Blatty (Method). Very competetive and above most warlocks for a lot of the fights in SoO.

You really shouldn't use Blatty as a standard. He is one of the absolute best Mages in the world. He has been consistently so. And he was one of the best Warlocks in the world when he was playing it.

That said... yes, Warlocks have been better than Mages for most of this expansion. Most of that was due to their utility. And the fact they were generally higher DPS during progression. Mages have actually been top DPS ONCE GEARED each tier. T14 Arcane w/ Scorch spam was RIDICULOUS damage. Fire mages w/ Combustion in T15 CRUSHED Warlocks on most fights once in full Heroic (if they had never nerfed Combustion raid composition in T16 would have been a game of "can we take 15 mages and still get enough total gear to progress?". Fire and Arcane in near-BIS are fully capable of outperforming any Warlock spec on a good number of fights.

Warlocks just generally have much better QOL while raiding (in terms of movement and damage taken). Both classes, on the whole, are and have been on top of damage the entire expansion.

Mages are certainly not "underperforming" Warlocks. The only way that is even conceivable is if you think anything less than absolute top damage in every situation in every time frame is your "birthright" as a class.

We're underperforming exactly as how you put it. Even if you claim our damage is equal if not sometimes better, the fact is in all other aspects aside from damage they are better than us and that is why raid leaders will always consider a warlock over a mage.

You really shouldn't use Blatty as a standard. He is one of the absolute best Mages in the world. He has been consistently so. And he was one of the best Warlocks in the world when he was playing it.

That said... yes, Warlocks have been better than Mages for most of this expansion. Most of that was due to their utility. And the fact they were generally higher DPS during progression. Mages have actually been top DPS ONCE GEARED each tier. T14 Arcane w/ Scorch spam was RIDICULOUS damage. Fire mages w/ Combustion in T15 CRUSHED Warlocks on most fights once in full Heroic (if they had never nerfed Combustion raid composition in T16 would have been a game of "can we take 15 mages and still get enough total gear to progress?". Fire and Arcane in near-BIS are fully capable of outperforming any Warlock spec on a good number of fights.

Warlocks just generally have much better QOL while raiding (in terms of movement and damage taken). Both classes, on the whole, are and have been on top of damage the entire expansion.

Mages are certainly not "underperforming" Warlocks. The only way that is even conceivable is if you think anything less than absolute top damage in every situation in every time frame is your "birthright" as a class.

He uses cauterize this long after SoO has been released, therefore I do *not* consider him one of the best mages in the world.

Ugh, someone HAD to revive this after being dead for a week... Can we give it a rest with this thread, guys? What more needs to be said in this thread specifically???

Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.