Request Information on Unattended Macroing

Stratics Veteran

When I returned one of the things that appeared to have changed was Unattended Macroing.

I have a Logitech G15 keyboard(s).

I was given the impression that unattended macroing was acceptable as long as it was not giving others problems.

I have read in another thread here that some are saying unattended macroing is in fact illegal.

As almost everything I have read on uo.com, here on stratics, on well almost anything, has proven to be wrong as in out dated/obsolete.

There fore I am asking, is unattended macroing legal or not?

If it is acceptable with qualifications, lets use this scenario

I pen up a Frenzied Ostard and use it to raise EvalInt, unattended

VS

I pen up a Greater Dragon and use it to raise EvalInt, unattended.

(Caution, the above scenario is deliberate and has an auto rebuttal to the anticipated reply. This is not a trap, it is intended as an opportunity to drill down into what makes one legal and one NOT legal)

On the other hand the dates of some of those, as best as I can determine them are very old.

The quandary is now back as the links indicate the last published policy. BUT most of the policies and ... things from more than 3 years ago have proven to be, reliably, wrong/out dated.

I am not going to bring up the replies to this question I made a ways back as any that responded will respond again if they chose to do so.

BUT

I will sumarize, there seemed to be a recognition of EA's part that repetitive tasks, including skill ups, could be performed with a macro (including KR's implementation) unattended as long as the action did not present or cause issues/problems for others (context performing them in a public place (say Luna Bank) vs the privacy of your house).

I do NOT choose to split hairs, such as, well who is going to report you if you are in your house. If it is illegal, then that is it.

BUT then why add such a feature to KR and accept such a feature in UOA?

On the other hand the dates of some of those, as best as I can determine them are very old.

The quandary is now back as the links indicate the last published policy. BUT most of the policies and ... things from more than 3 years ago have proven to be, reliably, wrong/out dated.

I am not going to bring up the replies to this question I made a ways back as any that responded will respond again if they chose to do so.

BUT

I will sumarize, there seemed to be a recognition of EA's part that repetitive tasks, including skill ups, could be performed with a macro (including KR's implementation) unattended as long as the action did not present or cause issues/problems for others (context performing them in a public place (say Luna Bank) vs the privacy of your house).

I do NOT choose to split hairs, such as, well who is going to report you if you are in your house. If it is illegal, then that is it.

BUT then why add such a feature to KR and accept such a feature in UOA?

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Ok here ya go if ya want to test what we are saying. Let me know what shard you are on and what your character name is, and get yourself a Golem and meet me in Luna. Do the all Guard me thing and whack away with a 100% Poison weap. Leave your PC go have dinner and I will page a GM and wait an insufferable amount of time, but you will see where you end up if and when a GM ever decides to show up. Simple solution since you don't believe us.

GovernorStratics VeteranAlumni

Macro all ya want...Attended
And it's okay to macro all ya want, unattended, until someone reports you or you get caught.
Years ago, Um'ing got so bad, they put in a script to notify them of constant, timed, repetitive actions. I even got pulled to jail once because of the constant repetitive casting of FS, target self, repeat, med, FS, Target self, repeat, med...
And I was actually sitting at the keyboard and doing it myself LOL while watching a movie on tv.
I'm not sure that their macro script catcher works anymore tho, judging from the number of scripters mining and jacking and farming gold now.

My advice?? Don't do it, it IS illegal, and I don't believe anyone can pull a link to prove it is legal.

Stratics Veteran

There was a time back in the long long ago where there was no official policy for macroing. I knew a few people who GMed various skills while they were sleeping or at classes or various campus jobs back then. Then the policy was changed when OSI (it was still called OSI at the time) figured out that unattended macroers were 1) creating lag for attended characters and 2) costing them bandwitch. Then the policy came in.

While it is against the rules to unattended macro, people do it without punishment (not the same thing as it being allowed). I still suggest for the reputation of your account that you do all macroing while sitting at your computer. Attended macroing is allowed; I'm a paper clip or plastic fork user myself. There isn't anything that prevents you from reading a good book, watching a movie on a closeby television, or chatting with friends on some instant messager or the phone while you do dull repetitive actions like Arms Lore.

Stratics Veteran

There was a time back in the long long ago where there was no official policy for macroing....

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In addition, it was rather straight forward to Boat Mine/Lumberjack resources (Ore and Boards) with a macro that did not require human intervention.

It was this group (me included) that was the real target for the anti - macro code and policies.

The thing is, there was less reason to macro then than there is now. In the context of skilling up, resource creation, resource collection. It wasn't nearly as mind numbingly dangerous to you then, as those things are now.

When I came back I made the GM Miner and LJack and was burned out on anything to do with UO via that experience. It is hard to believe how totally ridiculous the current system is and apparently hasn't solved a thing BUT has managed to reduce the number of people doing these activities legitimately.

Me? I just threw the towel in on those characters and the tradeskill characters. They simply are not worth the time and effort to do. That is so extremely wrong and sad that OSI - EA has chosen to change things such that, that statement is more true than false.

Stratics Veteran

unattended macroing has never been legal in uo tho folklore people believe its ok. dont break the tos or you will get banned. ermmm i could follow that up but no im gonna lay off uo just for the night. uo isnt an instant gratification game and should never be so. there was a post i saw from a guy saying he bought games for i think his nephews or grand children and first thing they did was look up cheat codes. lets leave that to ps gaming etc and keep uo as it is tho i would like to see 8x8 again and seesawing but did an bowyer lately honestly and still got a good feeling it gming it. oh happy days

The thing is, there was less reason to macro then than there is now. In the context of skilling up, resource creation, resource collection. It wasn't nearly as mind numbingly dangerous to you then, as those things are now.

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You are more likely to get banned for training skills unattended by far than you are for getting caught running an unattended script to farm resources gold or artifacts, because they can Sell $20 advanced character tokens if you aren't willing to do it the hard way.

But in honesty, no it wasn't always illegal. Nobody ever really considered that people would pay to play a game and then not actually be there playing it.
When they realized people were using macros to do things unattended, they set their UM policy and it has remained in place ever since.

Simply - you can be banned for it, whether you think it is illegal or not. It is in the terms you agree to.

Stratics Veteran

Simply - you can be banned for it, whether you think it is illegal or not. It is in the terms you agree to.

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Two interesting words, THINK and CAN.

What I THINK has NO relevance, in the context of "It is legal or it is NOT legal". That context sets a Black/White, True/False,Yes/No condition.

IF "you CAN" is true, then your saying it is NOT a policy, it is a whimsical call by some one that MAY be having a bad hair day or NOT.

That is NOT policy.

That is NOT something a player can use to determine how they play.

Reading the boards, suggest though, YOUR RIGHT. It CAN ....

This is an Opportunity For Improvement on EA's part.

It was readily established that when the Anti-Macro code was put in place it was costing OSI MORE money to have it there than not. Causing LAG for ALL players. In short it was raising the cost of operations and had at is peek an extremely dubious positive payback.

To have a GM going around investigating people to see if they are at their keyboard is AN EXPENSE. IF EA has decided to expend these dollars and there is NO punishment (as has been indicated in this thread) then what a total waste of revenue.

If there is a Policy against unattended macroing BUT there is a policy of NO ASK, NO TELL as well then ... well no wonder people get confused and BLAME / HATE GM's.

It wouldn't be the first indication of the Left Hand NOT knowing what the right hand is/was doing and escalated to The left Hand is counteracting what the Right Hand is doing, in UO, since I have returned.

Stratics Veteran

In addition, it was rather straight forward to Boat Mine/Lumberjack resources (Ore and Boards) with a macro that did not require human intervention.

It was this group (me included) that was the real target for the anti - macro code and policies.

The thing is, there was less reason to macro then than there is now. In the context of skilling up, resource creation, resource collection. It wasn't nearly as mind numbingly dangerous to you then, as those things are now.

When I came back I made the GM Miner and LJack and was burned out on anything to do with UO via that experience. It is hard to believe how totally ridiculous the current system is and apparently hasn't solved a thing BUT has managed to reduce the number of people doing these activities legitimately.

Me? I just threw the towel in on those characters and the tradeskill characters. They simply are not worth the time and effort to do. That is so extremely wrong and sad that OSI - EA has chosen to change things such that, that statement is more true than false.

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The solution is as plain and simple as you want to make it. A fine example would be they made an easy to set-up macro system in KR. You can use their client or your own client to macro so long as it is attended. It makes Heartwood quests really easy or filling BODs nice and easy.

I wouldn't even dream of using an unattended macro even after having a frontal lobotomy, that's just asking for a ban regardless of any excuse. Again I repeat so long as it is attended so you can answer the GM after some self-righteous individual tries to get you banned, you'll be just fine.

Stratics Veteran

This is how it would work – if you are macroing unattended and if someone sees you and is able to determine that you are macroing unattended and if they decide to page a GM and if a GM shows up and then determines you are unattended macroing you will be suspended / jailed for a unspecified amount of time (usually 72 hours) if it is your first offence. If you have more than one offence then it maybe possible that your account will be banned.

Stratics Veteran

If someone sees you AFK macroing, and they page, and a GM shows up, you get banned. What in the world is so hard to understand about this?

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What is so hard to understand? Why I would have thought it would be obvious.

Read the boards and count the post stating how things depend on who answers the page. IF the implementation is Dependant on the call of a person (AKA EA Employee) and they MAY or MAY NOT take action, then there is NO policy. Least wise NO POLICY a player can use to regulate their play with.

I would have thought it OBVIOUS

Gildar points links to things relevant to this post rather than try to tell me what I can and can NOT do. Rather than express their opinions about things that I can do or NOT do.

Reading these boards this is a slam dunk, there is NO POLICY that a player can use to guide them in their play.

ALL you all have said is the OBVIOUS, do what you want to do, if you get caught and the GM is in a BAD MOOD, you will get banned for 72 hours.

What is also being said is ... never mind I have expressed my point to you and others that choose to tell me what I can and can NOT do. I hope you got the point.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

i agree with this to a degree... i think it should be ok to run something that saves people the trouble of clicking over and over, for example filling bods involves a million clicks especially if you're filling 50 or so, so using something that saves you the trouble of constant clicking should be legal if you are watching it while its doing all the clicking for you. In other words, using a certain program other than uo assist, i'm talking about the main scripting program that everyone knows about and i'm not allowed to mention by name SHOULD be legal to use if you use it while attended. All it does is save a lot of clicking, now if you set up something to train skills and then leave the house for the whole day, that should definitely be illegal.

Stratics Veteran

The point of this post is this, the ability to macro is greater now than when I left.

There is UOA, KR, The Logitech keyboard and various scripting programs that didn't exist when I left.

It isnt likely that there are people out there that have never macro'd.

I suspect any number of people will say they have at the very least macro'd some aspect of a Tradeskill.

I suspect some number of them will admit that they have left the computer to use the bathroom, make coffee, change a diaper etc. All of these are obviously examples of unattended macroing. I am quite sure all of these people get the concept

I am also seeing and was stated flat out the first time I asked this, that EA/Mythic is no longer actively pursuing or interested in people doing unattended macroing, in so far as that action is not causing an issue or problem to others and does not give some one an undo advantage over another and that Skillups and Trade skills are not on the list in terms of undo advantages.

I guess I am going to just need to accept that the policy today is Yes it is illegal BUT it is mitigated by No Ask, No Tell, meaning we will not come after you unless you make yourself a problem to the community.

Stratics Veteran

...now if you set up something to train skills and then leave the house for the whole day, that should definitely be illegal.

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To turn the the thread a bit, why do you feel that way?

I have two computers. I have two accounts.

I can set one of my computers up to raise Magic Skill for all intents and purposes unattended. I am right there playing UO on a screen 4 feet to the right. I do periodically look at the other screen but if all honesty it gets at most 0.000000001% of my attention span. In some cases people I know have stopped to say high and I simply missed it. By the definitions used in this thread and the last policy statement by UO I failed the test of Attened Macroing, YET I was there, just focused on ANOTHER UO ACCOUNT.

What do you say to the above? If you say it was attended then why should a GM jail me, even though I failed the test?

In the end run, isnt the better test, Is anyone being hurt by this action, is this action giving this individual an undo advantage over others in the game. If the answer is NO then why the issue?

If I set up my computer to take me from Magic 0 to Magic 85 in 24 hours, how is that giving me an advantage over YOU that bought an advancement token (or was given as a reward?) Then I spend another 24 hours raising EvalInt to 85. I spend two real days to archive what you archived by spending $29US (or received for free) for instant gratification.

What do you say to the above? If you say it was attended then why should a GM jail me, even though I failed the test?

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What if you are sitting at the computer desk, but sleeping? Or dead? You are still physically at the computer, right?

You can argue semantics all you want, but the rule is purposefully clear. If your character is active in game and you are not attentively participating in your character's activity (defined as being able to respond to a GM's inquiry), then action can be taken against your account.

In the end run, isnt the better test, Is anyone being hurt by this action, is this action giving this individual an undo advantage over others in the game. If the answer is NO then why the issue?

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Then you have to consider all possible cases of who might get hurt and for what reasons.

If you use your computer to gain skills, you might not think it hurts anyone. But if you are doing that instead of buying a token, EA is going to view that as a loss of revenue, and one could argue that you are hurting the overall health of the game from that loss of revenue.

What about the person who spent hours and hours raising it the normal, intended way? How are they going to feel when they learn that your character now has the same level of skill, but you didn't have to do anything except set up a macro and go to sleep?

Heck, one can even argue that you are only hurting yourself. You are paying a monthly service to play a game, except you are missing a good portion of that game's content by letting a computer play the game for you. There's no sense of satisfaction gained when you hit a skill milestone since you didn't do any of the work yourself (yes, it's true for an advance token too, but it's still a valid point).

Trying to define how much "hurt" and/or "advantage" each unattended situation creates would only result in a phone-book sized rulebook that no one (including the GMs) would fully understand.

The current rule exists because it is simple, enforceable, and upholds the spirit of the game. If you feel current skills are too difficult to gain in, or game activities like resources gathering are too monotonous, write the devs and ask them to make the game more fun. But asking them to allow unattended play can only result in even less player interaction in an already sparsely populated world.

I have been banned 72 hrs for unattend macroing....funny thing was i come back right as gm was like hey you there? before i could say HI YES I AM he was like okay.. i lost connection and couldn't log in and of course shorty after received a email

I think someone from the dev team needs to tell this guy IT'S ILLEGAL.
he won't believe anything we say.

Even seen the Unattended Macroer's Jail near Buc's Den...? At least there's one on Pacific. They wouldn't create a place like that to place unattended macroers into for the hell of it. It is illegal to macro anything unattended.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Use kr uoa or the g15 keyboard to macro.Use a penny to hold the key down or, fork your keyboard if ya like dont matter,just be there when a GM comes a callin to answer him or her. if you need to get something to drink, eat or you need to tinkles in the potty stop the macro, and when you get back start up the macro

Stratics Veteran

UOA has the ability to record extremely long macros, about 200 lines I think. So you can record a "hide, wait 12000" 100 times. That macro will run for 20 mins.

What is not legal is UNATTENDED macroing.

Historically, this is because in the early days, so many people were using various methods to macro their chars overnight (eg paperweight on use last object marco to beat on training dummies). They would leave their PCs on and go to sleep.

This caused a major issue - people come home from work, all geared up to go troll bashing got a "Server is FULL" message when they try to login. they would try for hours, and they would fail. They can't play because there are alot of people that are macro'ing unattendedly. They can't play because people that are not actually playing are hoarding the server sessions.

Is this fair? No. Hence OSI decreed that "Thou shalt not macro unattended, ere thy suffer the wrath of the heavens" so sayeth them.

An arguement may be made that, all OSI has to do is increase the server capacities. With upgraded servers, more shards etc I have never seen a server full message these last several years. However OSI has not seen fit to remove this ruling. With the plethora of macroing/scripting programs available, this is probably wise and have been considered. Without controlling this, unattended macroing will run amok. Without controlling this, you have gold farming scripters in every dungeon, hogging every single spawn. (of course this would force players to return to Fel, since they can kill the scripters. Tram would be crowded by scripters)

What do you think will happen if the "servers are full" issue re-surface? Or if the servers are over-run with scripters? People will complain that all these unattended macro'ers are hogging the connections even if they are not playing. And OSI will start banning/kicking people.

With the recent bannings, we already know the chaos that will entail such an action.

Stratics Veteran

I have been banned 72 hrs for unattend macroing....funny thing was i come back right as gm was like hey you there? before i could say HI YES I AM he was like okay.. i lost connection and couldn't log in and of course shorty after received a email

I think someone from the dev team needs to tell this guy IT'S ILLEGAL.
he won't believe anything we say.

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He's been shown the relevant links to the TOS. The fact that he continues to debate it just makes this thread one giant trolling session.

It's against the rules. Period. End of story. Nothing more to discuss.

Stratics Veteran

If you, for example, make an in game macro to cast fireball on your book, and bind the key to space bar. Then take your perfectly sized cellphone and lay it on the spacebar, so you cast it over and over agian, then go to bed.

Then say, some player happens by your house and notices you macroing away and pages, you WILL get taken to jail. however i doubt you would get a ban first offence.

Stratics Veteran

BUT then why add such a feature to KR and accept such a feature in UOA?

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They very much did not add such a feature to KR, and most definitely did not accept such a feature in UOA.
Both KR and UOA's repeating macros are limited to a rather low number of repeats, specifically so that the player needs to hit a button frequently enough so that they remain attended.

Why would they intentionally limit capability if they thought macroing unattended was acceptable?

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