Are you serious? Pakistan just had to be saved from the world community, becuase otherwise it would be bankrupt, so why even bothering about a project like this? They should have invested their money in other things than nuclear weapons development!

Are you serious? Pakistan just had to be saved from the world community, becuase otherwise it would be bankrupt, so why even bothering about a project like this?

Its good to keep yourself updated rather than mouthing off BS. This project was conceived during Musharraf's Era when due to Economic Reforms of 2000 by him. His and Shaukat Aziz's goverment was able to guide Pakistan to its highest growth rates ever seen:

However, due to the current policies and obsession with revenge of the new government. Everything has gone tits up. The world community didn't "save Pakistan" out of any brotherly love, its because they need Pakistan to stay stable, to help them win the War on Terror. Just like we helped them win the Cold War against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Yet again they need us. And what "help" by the world community do you refer too??? Pakistan just got an IMF loan with strict conditions attached to it. The so called "Friends of Pakistan" group did jack for Pakistan. There was no "help" that you speak of. An IMF loan is not called "help" especially considering that due to the interest rates on loans and strict conditions attached to it, Pakistan will end up paying back more money that it actually got from the IMF, as a loan in the first place.

People such as you really dissapoint me.

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Originally Posted by Cyman

They should have invested their money in other things than nuclear weapons development!

Btw, does your country have a way bigger neighbour next to you? With whom you share a border of almost 3,000 km? With whom you've already fought 3 wars and still have outstanding issues left which can ignite a war in no time? And who also possess Nuclear weapons, much larger in number, with a greater payload and range? Not to mention a Military budget 3 to 4 times larger than yours?

I don't see where this is BS because it's still a fact, regardless of who is or was responsible for the current situation!

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However, due to the current policies and obsession with revenge of the new government. Everything has gone tits up. The world community didn't "save Pakistan" out of any brotherly love, its because they need Pakistan to stay stable, to help them win the War on Terror. Just like we helped them win the Cold War against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Yet again they need us.

I know this, actually everyone knows this and that's the sole and only reason why the world community/IMF agreed on "giving" Pakistan money to save it from bankruptcy!

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And what "help" by the world community do you refer too??? Pakistan just got an IMF loan with strict conditions attached to it. The so called "Friends of Pakistan" group did jack for Pakistan. There was no "help" that you speak of. An IMF loan is not called "help" especially considering that due to the interest rates on loans and strict conditions attached to it, Pakistan will end up paying back more money that it actually got from the IMF, as a loan in the first place.

If this is not help, what do you consider help? Because it's a loan that Pakistan will have to pay interests for it's not help?
You say Pakistan will end up paying back more money that it got, but I say the IMF/countries who agreed on this loan will never see their money again!
Face it, even the G8 countries are so deep in debt that they will never get back out of it, also the country I live in, let alone the US - it's ridiculous (if it wasn't that serious) how suddenly hundreds of billions of EUR/USD/GBP are thrown into the public discussion, although countries like the USA are as bankrupt as many other African countries, yet the world (unfortunately depends on them) so they know that they cannot be dropped by the world community because of the consequences this would have on the world economy (thanks to globalization!).
If China had the balls, this crisis would be the chance for them to change the power balance globally (nobody really wants to imagine the economic earthquake this would follow), but in fear for their very own economic growth (and maybe also the unpredictable political aftermath of such an action) they don't act and therefore the situation will remain the same for quite some more time I guess (in terms of economical and political dependence on the USA).
Nobody really seems to realize that now is the time to change the world, like Obama said, it's time for change, but in another way than he actually thinks of, because every crisis, even the deep crisis we may all go through now is also a chance!
I know this is driving us too far OT, but let me give just one example.
Instead of pumping all the money into buying the corrupt credits and as loans and guarantees for the banks, they should rather invest the money into establishing green technology (if the US automobile industry would invest in environmentally-friendly technology now, they could not only preserve their own existence, but also be a role model for the whole world and therefore taking the lead in this field) - massively, which would produce many many jobs and help the countries' economies to grow again - and also do something for the ecology and the global climate (not only talking like always). But in the end, nobody sees these chances, all the politicians are just opportunists and will continue to talk instead of acting!

Not only I think it's not a matter of how much Pakistan actually spends on its military budget, even more I think that a country like Pakistan (India, Iran, North Korea as well as any other "unstable" countries (nor any country in the world if you ask me) should be in possession of nuclear weapons of any kind! No offense to you or to Pakistan, India etc., but if you have a look at the political situation (which you also describe further down), the situation is anything but safe - look at what happened in Mumbai, now this fuels the whole tension between the two countries even more, exactly what the terrorists wanted to reach - great to see how easy this was for them - and stupid if you have to sit there, watching what happens and you cannot do anything against it from where you sit (somewhere in Europe, the USA or somewhere else)! How comforting, isn't it?
Oh, and mentioning that Pakistan only spends 3% of its GDP for the military, I could dismantle your argument by setting it into relation with the political situation. If a country like Pakistan is strategically so important in the War against Terror, don't you think they should put more effort into fighting it which means putting more money into military budget? Maybe this would strengthen the region, weaken terrorism and help fighting it (I don't know if this war can ever be won - I doubt it) and maybe could have prevented something like what happened in Mumbai last week!
Apparently, in respect of the financial situation of Pakistan it is certainly not quite easy to make even bigger military efforts in financial terms, but then they should ask someone to help them, which means let other countries (who could afford it and are willing to fight terrorism) operate on their territory to support them in the War against terrorism.
Also, have you ever imagined what could happen if the "wrong" people get into power in Pakistan and get their hands on nuclear weapons? I can think of enough extremist streams in the country making me shiver when I imagine they had power over these devices!

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Btw, does your country have a way bigger neighbour next to you? With whom you share a border of almost 3,000 km? With whom you've already fought 3 wars and still have outstanding issues left which can ignite a war in no time? And who also possess Nuclear weapons, much larger in number, with a greater payload and range? Not to mention a Military budget 3 to 4 times larger than yours?

If I tell you that I live in a country surrounded by nine neighors (there are only two more countries in the world who have more), that the country I was born in started two World Wars (all we had until now), having led to 60,000,000 dead people alone in WWII, which also led to the construction of the Atomic Bomb, which was marked by the two World Wars in every way, seperated into two countries being the scene of two super powers opposing each other in the Cold War for over 40 years, but since 1945 never knew any war, like the rest of the Continent which is unprecedented in its history. How odd that it seemed to need two World Wars to lead to what historical personalities like Caesar, Napoleon (and also Hitler) all dreamt of: a united Europe. What theses people tried with War has ultimately been reached in peace - the blood toll for it was high, but I am glad that we live in peace and now guess, which country I am living in!
So, yes, I know what it is like to be threatened by a much bigger power armed to the teeth with all imaginable weapons of mass destruction and being in the focus of a possible war. We would have been among the first to be eradicated, ending up as a nuclear desert, just as the rest of the world following us. I am glad, these times are over!

To get back on topic, I have to admit that the design of the tower is sleek! ;-)

I mostly agree with your sentiments of whats going around the world. But to prevent us from getting off topic any further like you have mentioned there in your post. I will keep it short.

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Originally Posted by Cyman

Also, have you ever imagined what could happen if the "wrong" people get into power in Pakistan and get their hands on nuclear weapons? I can think of enough extremist streams in the country making me shiver when I imagine they had power over these devices!

There is no need to imagine this scenario. No matter how much the West loves too. As whenever Pakistanis have gotten a chance to vote in Elections, they have always voted for moderate & secular parties. A recent example is the current elections. Where in NWFP, the so called "radical" province of Pakistan, the average guy voted for the Secular ANP not the religious MMA. Not to mention that Musharraf retired all the religious people from the Army, so that even if the next coup comes, the guy won't be a radical like General Zia-ul-Haq.

On top of that, Nuclear weapons are not just out there in the bazaars (markets) of Pakistan that anyone can just go and pick them up like that. All the components that make up a Nuclear Bomb, are spread all over the country, at very different & secure locations. With every component being as important as the next one. As with even one component missing the Bomb will be of no use. Moreover, the locations are only known to 4 to 6 people in the whole of Pakistan. Out of a population of almost 170 milion. Its impossbile to get hold of them. Just the West's wet dream.

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Originally Posted by Cyman

To get back on topic, I have to admit that the design of the tower is sleek! ;-)

I think that a country like Pakistan (India, Iran, North Korea as well as any other "unstable" countries (nor any country in the world if you ask me) should be in possession of nuclear weapons of any kind!

Well, lets keep in mind that we did not introduce the nukes to South Asia - our neighbor did that in 1974 as a direct threat to Pakistan. Seeing as how we had fought 3 inconclusive wars with them, and no political resolution would satisfy them unless it included handing over the entirety of Kashmir to Indian control, we simply were unable to stand by and be threatened without any response. Let us also not forget that the Indians hadn't even regarded Pakistan as a legitimate state, and some of their leaders (like Nehru I think) even stated that the Muslim nationalism which led to the creation of Pakistan was a whim that would dissipate, eventually leading to the "reunification" of India and Pakistan.

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Originally Posted by Cyman

No offense to you or to Pakistan, India etc., but if you have a look at the political situation (which you also describe further down), the situation is anything but safe - look at what happened in Mumbai, now this fuels the whole tension between the two countries even more, exactly what the terrorists wanted to reach

We all know that South Asia is unstable, and that a political settlement of the Kashmir issue (which is the cause of all these problems) is the way to resolve all tensions between India and Pakistan. Until then, I'm not going to be surprised when(not 'if') more attacks happen.

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Originally Posted by Cyman

Oh, and mentioning that Pakistan only spends 3% of its GDP for the military, I could dismantle your argument by setting it into relation with the political situation. If a country like Pakistan is strategically so important in the War against Terror, don't you think they should put more effort into fighting it which means putting more money into military budget? Maybe this would strengthen the region, weaken terrorism and help fighting it (I don't know if this war can ever be won - I doubt it) and maybe could have prevented something like what happened in Mumbai last week!

While increasing our military budget may be good for fighting terror, it would come right out of our development funds. I tend to follow the school of thought that believes development, opportunity, and education are far more effective at eradicating terror than warfare. Pakistan's leaders have echoed that ideal as well, so perhaps we are more effective at stemming terror than you'd otherwise believe. Plus, that 3% doesn't include the military aid we get from America.

As for your "put more effort into it" sentiment, consider that Pakistan has lost well over 1500 soldiers in this fight, along with over 1,500 more civilians (including our nearly-elected Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto), so I wouldn't regard our effort as half-hearted. After all, suicide bombings have killed many more Pakistanis than Indians or Americans, let alone Europeans - so if anyone would fight against this sort of terror, it is Pakistan. You can argue that Pakistan bred this sort of terrorism, but Pakistan's CIA-funded program to train Afghan militants in their fight against the Soviet invaders never included lessons on suicide bombings against civilians... that tactic was learned from Hamas, which in turn learned it from the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka - who are obviously Hindus and not Muslim extremists.

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Originally Posted by Cyman

Also, have you ever imagined what could happen if the "wrong" people get into power in Pakistan and get their hands on nuclear weapons? I can think of enough extremist streams in the country making me shiver when I imagine they had power over these devices!

This actually is a reason why nukes guarantee our security. No country in the world would allow us to become a failed state -although many of our next door neighbors so often foolishly wish for that outcome (they tend to forget that if Pakistan collapses, those nukes will end up in the wrong hands, and India will likely be target number one). And its foolish to think that some foreign army could come in and seize/secure all those nukes if Pakistan were to ever fall apart. If we had no nukes, the world would simply let us collapse, and end up like some generic African country.

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PAKISTAN NEEDS ITS OWN ATATÜRK

Why do states that enforce Sharia always end up as the world's most repressive states?

Are you serious? Pakistan just had to be saved from the world community, becuase otherwise it would be bankrupt, so why even bothering about a project like this? They should have invested their money in other things than nuclear weapons development!

The government is not building it fool, 3 companies from the UAE are.
This project will be included in crescent bay, which they have already laid the site out of.
But this project may be halted for a little while.