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Well, what exactly about faith do you struggle with? I'm sure you realize (especially if you do study doctrine) that faith isn't wishful thinking. It isn't "I'm going to force myself to believe this." It's the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It has substance and also evidence. People tend to get hung up on "things hoped for" and "things not seen". Faith does produce something tangible though.

The other thing is, people tend to put the cart before the horse. Ultimately what ignites a spiritual awakening which brings about faith originates with God Himself. He works in a person to both will and to do of His good pleasure. And basically "faith", "belief" and "trust" are all flavors of the same substance (so to speak). I find that the deeper my spiritual awakening becomes the more trust grows. And the more trust grows the more security I have. And that all springs out of God's love.

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Years of personal suffering, mental Illness caused by said suffering, and compete dysphoria. It's hard to believe in anything when you feel nothing and sometimes doubt your own existence.

Years of personal suffering, mental Illness caused by said suffering, and compete dysphoria. It's hard to believe in anything when you feel nothing and sometimes doubt your own existence.

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Yes, I can certainly feel the pain of dealing with mental illness. A lot of crap has happened to me in life and I've spent my fair share of time in psych hospitals. Just because we can't feel anything, and struggle with our own sanity doesn't mean God isn't real or isn't still there. I've found over the years though that the awareness of His presence has the power to transcend my insanity. Some of my sharpest awareness of the reality of God has come in the times when my mind was not right.

First principle of Scriptural interpretation. You interpret Scripture by comparing it to itself. It is its own interpreter, dictionary and commentary. Thayer's Greek Lexicon is wrong. "Paradise" is not the "top part of Hades"! We know this because the Scriptures themselves tell us what "paradise" is.

So, let's deal with the word "paradise" first.

"Paradise" is Strong's # 3857.

Sheol is Stong's # 86 (which is Greek word Hades) "Sheol" is Hebrew word for the Greek word "Hades". "Sheol" itself is not used in the New Testament. There are Greek transliterations of Hebrew words in the New Testament, but this is not one of them.

The Greek word "Paradise" used here is borrowed from the Persian language. It means "garden" or "park".

Revelation 2:7 tells us "the tree of life" is in "the paradise of God".

The second place this word is used is 2 Corinthians 12:4. In this passage Paul is relaying something he heard from a man who was "caught up to paradise".

Now verse 2 of this same passage tells us where the "paradise of God" is. It's in the "third heaven".

So when Jesus told this thief "Today" (He did not say Sunday morning. He said TODAY) you will be with me in paradise; He is NOT talking about Sheol! We know from the rest of Scripture that Jesus is telling this thief he will be in the 3rd heaven, in paradise where the tree of life is. And since it seems highly likely the thief died after Jesus did; the thief never went to Sheol. Because for the believer: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Because Acts quotes Psalms. This is how we know "hades" and "Sheol" are the same place.

Next passage (you quoted this one already)1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Next passage (you quoted this one too)Ephesians 4:9-10
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week". From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

Saturday - Sabbath.

Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

Again though, go back to Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6) This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. a gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

Passover:
So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not.

Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interoperation from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn.Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.

Why does Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him? Other people touch Him later on (women included). He says to her that He still has to ascend to the Father; yet we have no other Scriptural evidence that suggests Jesus left the earth and went back to heaven in bodily form between Sunday resurrection and the ascension.

Matter of fact this word "ascend" Strong's # 305. Is only used once in the context of "ascend to heaven". Acts 2:34 talks about David has not "ascended" to heaven before "the Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand...." When does Jesus "sit down at the right hand of God the Father". That one I'd have to research some more.

This response is long enough right now though, so I leave it as is.

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1. That is where Christ went that day, and it is one of the definitions of Paradise. More importantly it was one of the definitions know to the Jews at the time Christ was speaking to the thief on the Cross.

2. Sheol is the grave, and Paradise was thought by the Jews of the time to be the righteous abode of the departed in Hades/Sheol. Christ went to the grave/Sheol at death so we can clearly see this was the definition he was using when speaking with the thief on the cross. There are several definitions of the word Paradise, only by looking at the context the word is being used in can we derive it's meaning. From the context we see that he was neither referring the third part of heaven or a park or garden on earth.

3. Yes he said today you will be with me in Paradise and since we know that he did not go to heaven until sunday we can clearly see that he was not speaking of the Heavenly Paradise. John 20:17-18
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

4. Sheol is indeed the grave, and it says that he did not first ascend into heaven but first descended into the Lower parts of the earth. Notice how it says there are multiple parts to Sheol, this shows that sheol is in some way divided and from what Christ said about being in Paradise(abode of Pious souls) we can then see that it is divided between the pious souls and the damned souls.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

5. Three days and three nights is speaking is speaking about being three days and three nights in the hands of sinners and in the hands of the Sanhedrin court. Don Adair explains it very well in one of his studies but you can also find it directly from Houteff's writings in the Shepherd's rod also, it is a pretty long read either way(5 or six pages). But it is a proven fact that the three days and three nights is referring to Christ being in the hands of sinners and in the hands of the Sanhedrin court.

6. No man has ascended into heaven, Paul tells us that none have ascended and we see that the entirety of scripture tells us that no man will be raised unless they are a part of either the first or the second resurrection.

Ignore my last question. I saw that you said you weren't a Calvinist. My bad. It's that your terminology is almost identical to a Calvinist, but that's my fault for assuming. Forgive me.

Secondly, i still meant what I said. With the beginning verse you quoted, you jump to multiple verses to explain a verse in another place without first having the explanation of the original first. That isn't using the entirety of scripture to validate single scripture, it's taking different pieces out of it's place to uphold a belief while foregoing the face value of what is said. Jesus didn't go to a realm called "Sheol" because "Sheol" simply means what the definition says.."the grave". The Saints that were in Abraham's bosom were already saved by the blood of the Messiah because they believed in the promise of the Messiah that Father gave them in the Old Testament beginning with Adam. Hebrews 11 is specifically about this. Those saints didn't need to have Jesus come preach to them because they already believed in what Jehovah promised. Again, when Jesus says to theif "Today, you will be with me in Paradise", it meant just what it said. At that moment, the thief was washed in His blood because he believed that Jesus was that Messiah. Jesus is Yahweh in Human Flesh and that did not cease at the Cross. Jesus was speaking to him as I AM just how he had done since the beginning.

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No worries brother, I wasn't offended.

The verse is self explanatory. It says he will be with him in paradise today. The definition of the word has several meanings one of which is the Abode of Pious souls in hell/the grave/Sheol. To determine if this is the meaning he was using we look to the rest of scripture. Which says he did not first go to heaven but first went to the lower parts of the earth to the spirits in prison to preach to them. So by looking at the rest of Scripture we see that Christ first went to the grave/Sheol and not heaven showing us that on Friday when he died he went to the Sheol. This helps us to determine that the definition of the word Paradise that he was using was about the abode of the pious souls in Sheol, since that is where he first went to when he died(today/that day).

Now I may not have explained this well enough before so I will try it again.
The souls that were in the Abode of the pious were already saved by faith(as we know from scripture), Christ went there when he died and did preach to them but not for them to be saved(since they already were). He then went to the next part of Sheol(prison) where the unrighteous souls were kept/help to preach to THEM and give them a chance at accepting him and believing in him this was the Lord giving all those from the time of Adam to the time of Christ's death a chance at salvation through him.

The thief believed as best he could with whatever time he had remaining on the cross.

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There is no such thing as believing "as best he could". That would imply effort, skill, etc.

I defined saving faith. If you disagree with it, then please address my definition and explain why you disagree with it.

I assume he did not have the time to read any doctrinal statements regarding soteriology.

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He didn't need to. He surely was aware of who He was, saw, or heard about His miracles. What is clear is that he knew that Jesus was innocent and was going to His kingdom. This shows he had saving faith.

And the point? Saving faith saves. That's the point. And that's irregardless of how "thin" it may be.

All the rest of the stuff we total up as doctrine is just a matter of attempting to keep someone from straying from the very slim amount that a person needs to believe (which isn't the same thing as knowing) for salvation over the course of time.

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That may be your view of doctrine, but it's not mine.

Doctrine is teaching, categorically. Soteriology is the doctrine of saving faith.

39 hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

The thief on the cross was repentant and called on the name of the Lord.

That’s plenty of doctrine right there.

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You raise an interesting point.
Everyone assumes the thief on the cross next to Jesus was a lost unchurched individual.
But he knew Jesus had a kingdom. Where did he learn about that?

You raise an interesting point.
Everyone assumes the thief on the cross next to Jesus was a lost unchurched individual.
But he knew Jesus had a kingdom. Where did he learn about that?

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I think it’s reasonable to connect the dots. Consider the masses bringing their sick to Him to get healed to the point where when He preached He had to climb into a boat and push off shore. The mass feedings, the sermons on the mount and the plane not to mention His triumphal entry and all of the events leading up to His crucifixion. Remember the crowds calling out “crucify Him, crucify Him”! It’s obvious He had to be well known and influential.

I think it’s reasonable to connect the dots. Consider the masses bringing their sick to Him to get healed to the point where when He preached He had to climb into a boat and push off shore. The mass feedings, the sermons on the mount and the plane not to mention His triumphal entry and all of the events leading up to His crucifixion. Remember the crowds calling out “crucify Him, crucify Him”! It’s obvious He had to be well known and influential.

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I agree. Jesus was the talk of the town. I imagine his teachings were being shared far and wide.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Salvation has never been about believing "as best he could". It's about believing in Christ for salvation.

There is no such thing as believing "as best he could". That would imply effort, skill, etc.

I defined saving faith. If you disagree with it, then please address my definition and explain why you disagree with it.

He didn't need to. He surely was aware of who He was, saw, or heard about His miracles. What is clear is that he knew that Jesus was innocent and was going to His kingdom. This shows he had saving faith.

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Don't disagree but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Simply put he had saving faith because he recognized/believed in Jesus as Messiah/Savior. He wasn't concerned about "doctrine" as he "believed as best he could" about Christ at the time of his dying. If you read your NT, there are many who cry out to Jesus to "help them in their unbelief." Formal doctrine comes later as a believer learns/matures in Christ.

1. That is where Christ went that day, and it is one of the definitions of Paradise. More importantly it was one of the definitions know to the Jews at the time Christ was speaking to the thief on the Cross.

2. Sheol is the grave, and Paradise was thought by the Jews of the time to be the righteous abode of the departed in Hades/Sheol. Christ went to the grave/Sheol at death so we can clearly see this was the definition he was using when speaking with the thief on the cross. There are several definitions of the word Paradise, only by looking at the context the word is being used in can we derive it's meaning. From the context we see that he was neither referring the third part of heaven or a park or garden on earth.

3. Yes he said today you will be with me in Paradise and since we know that he did not go to heaven until sunday we can clearly see that he was not speaking of the Heavenly Paradise.John 20:17-18
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

4. Sheol is indeed the grave, and it says that he did not first ascend into heaven but first descended into the Lower parts of the earth. Notice how it says there are multiple parts to Sheol, this shows that sheol is in some way divided and from what Christ said about being in Paradise(abode of Pious souls) we can then see that it is divided between the pious souls and the damned souls.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

5. Three days and three nights is speaking is speaking about being three days and three nights in the hands of sinners and in the hands of the Sanhedrin court. Don Adair explains it very well in one of his studies but you can also find it directly from Houteff's writings in the Shepherd's rod also, it is a pretty long read either way(5 or six pages). But it is a proven fact that the three days and three nights is referring to Christ being in the hands of sinners and in the hands of the Sanhedrin court.

6. No man has ascended into heaven, Paul tells us that none have ascended and we see that the entirety of scripture tells us that no man will be raised unless they are a part of either the first or the second resurrection.

I agree. Jesus was the talk of the town. I imagine his teachings were being shared far and wide.

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I think Pilate and the soldiers had some awareness too. The Centurion does say "This was the son of God." And if Jesus was not of any notability, neither Pilate or his wife would have any caution of what to do with him. So, I'm sure the thieves had some awareness too.

That's an interesting comment. Paradise could be considered a subset of Hades.
Hades: the underworld; the abode of the spirits of the dead.

There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible. (Hades)
The only two references in the NT are in Acts chapter two.
One is in Ecclesiastes chapter nine (vs 10). Just five verses away from the key "proof text" used to claim that death is unconscious nonexistence (vs 5).

The process that gets you inducted into Christianity or Salvation is already doctrine.

Ironically, if you get this wrong, you'll be deceiving many.

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"Inducted" lol
That makes it sound so much more inviting.
You have a point though, sort of.

Isn't the doctrine more for the person leading someone to Christ?
The "inductee" hasn't a clue. They feel conviction and know they need to do something.
The "evangelist" leads them through a process (formed by doctrine) as you say.

And if you gather ten of us right now and put us out on the street to lead someone to Christ, wouldn't we all use different methods and words? I suppose there would be some common elements. Perhaps that's where this discussion needs to go. What are they? I would guess that we as a group can't even agree on that.

Soteriology is the doctrine of salvation.
I'm not sure there is any such thing as "saving faith".

What kind, or how much faith do we need to be saved?
Maybe you are claiming a salvation by works that includes doctrine that you approve of?
Which means the judgment will examine everyone's doctrine to see if their Soteriology is approved? If not... flames.