Sunday, October 5, 2008

Racial Profiling Ice Agents Bust into Citizen Latino Grandmother´s home brandishing Guns, Grenades and pointing their pistols! A grandmother huddles in fear, quietly handing them her citizenship papers. Is this what life has become for Latino Citizens? Should we be forced to carry our birth certificates, passports and any other applicable citizenship papers and to endure these terrifying break ins because of our skin color? Some ANTI commenters are adament that "if we fit the description", we must be forced to accept these Suppression Raids!

Olga Savage said she went through a harrowing life-changing experience that might have been a total mistake. The 68-year-old woman told Action 4 News that she heard a knock at her door Tuesday morning. But before she had a chance to get up she said U.S. Immigration & Customers Enforcement (ICE) agents were inside her home. “They came in with guns, grenades and holding their pistols,” Savage recalled. When she asked them why they came into her home they allegedly responded, "Show us your papers." Savage complied by showing them documentation proving that she's been a United States citizen for 40 years. She said they were shocked to see the paperwork. “They looked confused and said, 'They told us you didn’t have your papers',” she recalled. After verifying her documentation, they made copies and left. Olga said they didn't offer an apology or help. But the experience left her in bad shape. Savage told Action 4 News that she had to drive herself to the local clinic since her blood pressure rose to 280. “I told the doctor don’t let me die because I had a really bad pain,” she said. Savage said she wants to know why federal agents kicked in her door like she was a criminal, if she's been a citizen for so many years. “Why, why did they have to come like they were going to war, if I’m a women living on my own,” Savage asked. Action 4 News spoke with ICE spokeswoman Nina Pruneda about the incident. Pruneda said ICE agents would never raid someone's home and adds that the whole confusion started because Olga savage has two alien registration numbers. One number states that she is a U.S. Citizen and the other states that she is a fugitive. Pruneda said ICE will continue looking into this issue.

218 comments:

Don't pull the "skin color" BS, dee. It has nothing to do with that because anyone of any race can have very light to very dark skin.

Do you even read your own articles?Quote:

Action 4 News spoke with ICE spokeswoman Nina Pruneda about the incident. Pruneda said ICE agents would never raid someone's home and adds that the whole confusion started because OLGA SAVAGE HAS TWO ALIEN REGISTRATION NUMBER. ONE NUMBER STATES THAT SHE IS A U.S. CITIZEN AND THE OTHER STATES THAT SHE IS A A FUGITIVE!!!! Pruneda said ICE will continue looking into this issue.

So ICE didn't just arbitrarly pick on some woman with a certain skin color, dee. They had reason to suspect that she was a fugitive. What is wrong with you? Americans of all skin colors/ethnicities usually carry a driver's license or some form of I.D. What is the big deal to be asked for it?

The story this lady told was awesome. Right out of a novela. I kept waiting to hear about the Bradley fighting vehicles outside her house. I think people would have noticed the tanks parked outside here house with the turrets facing at her ready to discharge at a moments notice. Did anyone notice the fake tears??? There is no way a group of professionally trained officers were going to enter her house. This is not Mexico, although most people would believe the contrary. The average person has no clue what goes on behind the sidelines regarding these operations. Every year, an average of 150 police officers are killed in the line of duty. What most people fail to realize is that some of these dedicated officers are killed by people that are illegaly in this country. People are victimized by illegal aliens every day and people do not talk about that. I realize American citizens victimize people as well, but we don't need to outsource from other countries for these crimes. I love my country and I am proud of what these officers do day in and day out. Am I upset, YES! We've become judge, jury, and executioners without knowing the whole story.

So, let's think about this story. A 69 year old has two alien registration numbers, and one led ICE officials to think that she's a "fugitive". Is that grounds for breaking in and pointing guns and grenades at a 69 year old woman? The term fugitive is intentionally vague and doesn't even justify the actions of ICE officials. Am I missing something? She then doesn't even get a ride to the hospital for the stress they caused, much less an apology for their mistake? What's wrong with ICE? We could do better. There is no excuse for this. I hope ICE gets dismantled with the new administration, or at least heavily regulated. What an embarrassment and a waste on government spending. And Patriot, you sould be ashamed to belittle and doubt her trauma, suggesting fake tears. Having officials break into your house and point guns at you is very traumatic.

robles, I didn't suggest her tears were fake, the remarks of the commentator that I posted did! Another one in dee's blog with reading comprehension problems. You are of course assuming that the old lady was telling the whole truth because you want to! As was stated, the incident is under investigation.

Don't pose all those questions to me, I wasn't there. Pose them to ICE who was!

Trauma, yeah everytime a Hispanic is asked for I.D. according to dee it is a trauma for them, lol.

Robles,Welcome to my blog. I hope you come back often! Please understand that I allow both sides to post comments here as long as no one name calls and remains civil.So Pat and Anon will not call you names but they may push your buttons. You and I agree. This blatant ICE Raid was way over the top!Latinos should not and must not abide by these heinous tactics. That is why we must ALL vote! Get your mother and grandmother to vote. Your brothers and sisters. Everyone you know.Have a voting party! Car Pool!!We must ALL Vote! Every VOTE counts!Obama 2008 !!!

Pat and Anon,Lighten up!ICE screwed up!Admit it!This was a case of mistaken identity! ICE´s paper work has always been a mess. This poor grandmother suffered the consequences.This is what happens when we allow Racial Profiling to continue!!

It wasn't racial profiling dee!! Her last name isn't even Hispanic!!! Again, and I will say it slowly for you, it is in your own damn article!!! OLGA SAVAGE HAD TWO ALIEN REGISTRATION NUMBERS. ONE NUMBER STATED THAT SHE IS A U.S. CITIZEN AND THE OTHER STATED THAT SHE IS A FUGITIVE!!!! WHAT HAS HER RACE/ETHNICITY TO DO WITH IT???? IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ANY AMERICAN OF ANY ETHNICITY UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!

Mistakes happen every day in every walk of life. It is a fact of life! You are the one who needs to lighten up!

Pat,Here is what you are NOT understanding.ICE has horrible paperwork. They cannot even keep their day to day documentation straight. That is why there is such a severe backlog of processing Immigration papers.

Now back to the article. It is ICE saying there is duplication.The citizen grandmother has her documentation in order.She was stormtrooped IN ERROR!!Now do you get it!This is Racial Profiling to the Extreme!

patriot said... It wasn't racial profiling dee!! Her last name isn't even Hispanic!!! Again, and I will say it slowly for you, it is in your own damn article!!! OLGA SAVAGE HAD TWO ALIEN REGISTRATION NUMBERS. ONE NUMBER STATED THAT SHE IS A U.S. CITIZEN AND THE OTHER STATED THAT SHE IS A FUGITIVE!!!! WHAT HAS HER RACE/ETHNICITY TO DO WITH IT???? IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ANY AMERICAN OF ANY ETHNICITY UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!

Mistakes happen every day in every walk of life. It is a fact of life! You are the one who needs to lighten up!

Where you go wrong with Chris Rocks's remark is that anti's are opposed to illegal immigration not particular races. Chris Rock is black. How many blacks do you think are here illegally in our country, dee? Hardly any! So his remarks have nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue so why do you use the word "anti" in using his remarks? You are mixing those of us opposed to illegal immigration (anti's) with the KKK (racists). Illegal immigration and race are two unrelated issues.

Pat,Again, YOU DO NOT GET IT!Why do you think Arpaio targets all the BROWN neighborhoods? Or stops all the BROWN drivers of vehicles? He is NOT racial profiling the WHITE illegal immigrants or the WHITE anything! He is stopping all the BROWN or BLACK people!

Chris Rock DOES get it! He knows that once you instill fear and get rid of ALL the Brown people you don´t want around then its the Black people next!

Ask ALL the Native Americans and the Phillipino people or Cubans or Puerto Ricans your side Racial Profiles! They feel the same way I do!! RACIAL PROFILING IS WRONG and MUST be Stopped!!

patriot said... Where you go wrong with Chris Rocks's remark is that anti's are opposed to illegal immigration not particular races. Chris Rock is black. How many blacks do you think are here illegally in our country, dee? Hardly any! So his remarks have nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue so why do you use the word "anti" in using his remarks? You are mixing those of us opposed to illegal immigration (anti's) with the KKK (racists). Illegal immigration and race are two unrelated issues.

Stop with your skin color BS,dee!! Skin color has nothing to do with it. We have had persons of all different skin colors living in this country since it was founded. You are getting very desperate, red-faced and angry tonight and not making any sense at all. Lay off the sauce, it doesn't become you!

Patriot said:Oh and here is one of the comments to this lady's "story".

Patriot,By putting the word story in quotes, and posting a comment that someone else said that doubts the woman's tears were real, and not commenting at all yourself to the comment, don't you think it reads like you agree with the comment?

As for my questions, I wasn't directing them at you. I was directing them for anyone reading this. My comment that you should be ashamed of yourself is not a question. Comprende?

And about her last name not being hispanic/latino, what makes you think that her last name is the only piece of information they have on her that may or may not provide a clue as to her race and ethnicity? As an aside, the last name Robles is hispanic/latino, but many people pronounce it like Row-bals, and not Row-bless, which is the latino/hispanic pronunciation. I mention this because sometimes it's not obvious what is and isn't a spanish name, but it may not have been a factor in this case.

The fact is, this is a horrendous mistake for ICE to make. Even if she were to have been undocumented, it was a mistake to break into a 69 y/o woman's house and to point guns and grenades at her. WTF?

And the 69 year old woman speaking Spanish is a non-issue. She was talking to a latina reporter, and she was more than just a little bit upset, and in her own home. Most people who are bilingual and fully assimilated to mainstream culture can speak whatever language they want to in their homes, so chill out.

Patriot said:"Trauma, yeah everytime a Hispanic is asked for I.D. according to dee it is a trauma for them, lol."

Patriot,LOL. Racial profiling is not a laughing matter. And racial profiling is MUCH MUCH MORE than getting asked for ID. Apparently it is not enough for more than one person to tell you this. Some people can learn from other peoples' experiences and through their stories, and then some people need to experience it for themselves. You are the latter, but I wouldn't wish for racial profiling on anyone.

robles, just because I post someone elses remarks about what they observed in the video doesn't mean I agree or disagree with them. It is just another's point of view and opinion. You choose to believe her tears were genuine and the other person didn't! I wanted to show both sides and let everyone else judge by watching the video.

Again, there was no racial profiling! She was just a person who seemed to have two different conflicting sets of papers. It could just have easily happened to someone of another ethnicity in this country. But because she was Hispanic, you make a big deal out of it. As far as ICE coming in with guns blazing, that must be what they are trained to do when hunting down a possible fugitive. I don't know. But I am not going to judge them. It is up to our judicial system to do that.

I think the fact that she chose Spanish for the interview after being a citizen of this country for 40 years is a non-assimilation issue or she had an ulterior motive. The fact that the interviewer was also Hispanic shouldn't have had anything to do with it because she spoke English. Perhaps "grandma" did have an ulterior motive and was playing the Hispanic victim card by speaking in Spanish? If she is anything like you and dee, ethnicity tops everything and you have that tribabl mentality no matter how long you have lived in this country. It is so woven into every fiber of your being that it tops your love for this country, ITS citizens and its laws.

Pat and others,With all due respect to dee and her postings, I myself would not call this particular incident as a great example of racial profiling, because they are going on faulty record keeping on their part, more so than perception alone. I do not have enough information to know how much racial profiling played a factor in this particular case, if any, but I do feel that there are some elements of racial profiling going on here, but I feel that racial profiling happens more in the absence of ANYTHING BUT perception of race/ethnicity/nationality. I do agree that racial profiling is a serious thing, and that ICE does unfairly target Hispanic/Latino people, (and people perceived as being Hispanic/Latino), and that immigration officials do use lots of racial profiling in their tactics. To argue that it has nothing to do with race is dumb. To argue that officials mostly focus on people who are Hispanic/Latino just because that’s who most of the offenders are is to justify racial profiling. I myself think of racial profiling more so when people are pulled over, questioned, doubted, suspected and/or searched (or NOT pulled over, questioned, doubted, suspected, and/or searched just for their real or perceived race/ethnicity/nationality). So, racial profiling would include when white people are motioned to drive through a border patrol station without inspection, simply because they are perceived to be white (which is happening in my state, btw. When you are of a particular race/ethnicity, or perceived to be of a privileged background, you are treated differently. It’s still racial profiling if one is perceived as a member of the privileged class, but the outcome is very different than if you are perceived to be from an oppressed group. Drive while brown much?

Patriot,ICE is a government agency that should be doubted and scrutinized if they are to employ tactics of this sort on innocent senior citizens, documented or otherwise. They have violated the civil liberties of this poor woman, and did not even see fit to apologize for it. It would’ve been wrong for this kind of treatment, whatever her status.

Hmmm. The Hispanic Victim Card? Spanish is her first language. Could it be that she was just upset, and that people find it easier to express themselves in their first language? What ulterior motive could she have? Oh, she wanted sympathy from the Hispanic/Latino crowd. She already had my sympathies without having to utter a word. Besides, wouldn’t she want/need sympathy more from the English-speaking crowd?

Patriot said: As far as ICE coming in with guns blazing, that must be what they are trained to do when hunting down a possible fugitive. I don't know. But I am not going to judge them. It is up to our judicial system to do that.

I think the fact that she chose Spanish for the interview after being a citizen of this country for 40 years is a non-assimilation issue or she had an ulterior motive. The fact that the interviewer was also Hispanic shouldn't have had anything to do with it because she spoke English. Perhaps "grandma" did have an ulterior motive and was playing the Hispanic victim card by speaking in Spanish? If she is anything like you and dee, ethnicity tops everything and you have that tribabl mentality no matter how long you have lived in this country. It is so woven into every fiber of your being that it tops your love for this country, ITS citizens and its laws.

robles, you yourself admit that Hispanics are the majority that are here illegally, therefore it is called criminal, probability profiling. That is the way that law enforcement has always worked. You question those that fit the discription of the criminal. Why do you have a problem with it anyway? If one is a Hispanic citizen they have nothing to fear. You and dee never answer that question. What is the traumatic effect of being questioned or even having ICE or law enforcement knock on your door? You have no answer, only the race card. Assuming you are a U.S. citizen, why do you care if ICE is looking for illegal aliens?

There are no civil liberties denied in the course of an investigation, if one is suspected of a crime. How do you expect law enforcement including ICE to do their job? Yes, mistakes are made but usually quickly rectified. What is the big deal? It happens to people of all races in this country, including whites, not nearlly as much on immigration issues but in murders, rapes, robberies, etc.

As far as grandma speaking in Spanish rather than English, I would agree with you possibly if she hadn't been a U.S. citizen for 40 years! I say this woman was probably a typical citizen Latino illegal alien sympathizer and she was using this incident to promote sympathy for them so she spoke in Spanish to make her point.

I don’t have a problem with race/ethnic background/ perceived nationality playing a role (not the only role) in pinpointing who is and who isn’t an offender. I have a problem with it when it becomes the sole focus on who is perceived as an offender; I have a problem when people of a perceived race/ethnic background/ perceived nationality are treated differently than others based SOLELY on that; I have a problem with referring to people who are undocumented immigrants as ALL criminal. It excuses the bad behavior we are seeing, which discounts the status of these people as human beings, based solely on the perception of race/ethnicity/nationality.

Personally I have a problem with it, because I’ve been racially profiled. I’ve been wrongly accused, held in suspicion, discriminated, outright hated, and threatened for my perceived race/ethnicity/nationality. I’m a US citizen. I don’t “play the race card.” Discrimination and harassment is real and traumatic. It is dehumanizing to be less valued and doubted, to be viewed as a criminal. To be thought of as a cockroach with no rights. I don’t see undocumented immigrants as less than. I don’t put them in the same category of criminal as say a rapist, a drug dealer, murderer, or thief, but that is exactly what is happening

Patriot said:robles, you yourself admit that Hispanics are the majority that are here illegally, therefore it is called criminal, probability profiling. That is the way that law enforcement has always worked. You question those that fit the discription of the criminal. Why do you have a problem with it anyway? If one is a Hispanic citizen they have nothing to fear. You and dee never answer that question. What is the traumatic effect of being questioned or even having ICE or law enforcement knock on your door? You have no answer, only the race card. Assuming you are a U.S. citizen, why do you care if ICE is looking for illegal aliens?

I stand by what I said. On illegal immigration issues, it only makes sense to use the criminal, probability factor (most likely) to be here illegally in our country. It is in keeping with every other type of criteria used for other criminal investigations. I am not saying that all illegal aliens are guilty of other serious crimes. But it is a felony to use someone elses SS and I.D. for work or any other reason. Many are guilty of that crime at least. ICE is targeting them for deportation which is the penalty for just crossing our border illegally. That is all the reason that ICE needs to go after them.

If you were harrassed as you said, where was your I.D.? Once produced, this so-called harrassment should have come to an end. Did you have to see a shrink afterwards? I have been questioned by law enforcement before and asked to produce I.D. I was in therapy for life over it.

You are trying to play victim by claiming that all Hispanics are being treated unfairly now because of the illegal immigration mess we have. That simply isn't true. Why not cooperate with law enforcement and just be done with it?

Maybe you could provide examples of rampant descrimination and harrassment of legal Hispanic citizens. If you yourself have only had a bad experience, it doesn't count. Sheeeet happens to everyone.

Patriot said: "If you were harrassed as you said, where was your I.D.? Once produced, this so-called harrassment should have come to an end. Did you have to see a shrink afterwards? I have been questioned by law enforcement before and asked to produce I.D. I WASN'T in therapy for life over it.

Geez, Patriot, you just don't get it, do you? The solution is not always as simple as showing one's ID. I'm not going to take the time here to explain what it means to be a minority in this country.

Patriot said: "You are trying to play victim by claiming that all Hispanics are being treated unfairly now because of the illegal immigration mess we have. That simply isn't true. Why not cooperate with law enforcement and just be done with it?"

Again, I don't play the race card, I don't act as a victim. And I never claimed that all Hispanics suffer due to immigration issues. There are many Hispanics and Latinos that "pass" as white. They have a different experience than "ethnic" types. Not being a victim, I'm just saying that I experience this existence and some people just don't understand what it's like.

Patriot said: "Maybe you could provide examples of rampant descrimination and harrassment of legal Hispanic citizens. If you yourself have only had a bad experience, it doesn't count. Sheeeet happens to everyone."

You may be right about sh't happening to everyone, but I refuse to compare my sh't to yours. If this sounds like a copout, it's not; it would take too long for me to write about it here. Our experiences are different, and you seem to simplify what oppression is, based on your limited experiences. Try a lifetime. Try walking in immigrant/ethnic/minority/brown skinned/latino/black shoes. Then maybe you'll get it.

With all due respect to Mrs. Savage, I question some parts of her story. Specifically she said she had to drive herself to the clinic with a blood pressure of 280 and had such pain she asked the doctor not to let her die. (paraphrased)

A systolic blood pressure of 280 is off the charts. It is a medical emergency requiring hospitalization. If this report is correct, along with the fact she asked her doctor not to let her die and she had severe pain, any such person would have been hospitalized immediately.

Are you kidding me, robles? Minorities have so many advocacy groups fighting for them anymore that discrimination has shifted in the other direction now. Miniorities and illegal aliens have all kinds of lawsuits going for them. We aren't even allowed to ask for anyone's legal status in this country without being sued. PC has run amok and you know it. Minorities have had Affirmative Action in place for them for decades now. As I said, get off the victim train it has reached the station long ago.

someone posted this comment from the original news article, which I thought was very succinct and makes a lot of sense, IMO:

This is a travesty and a direct result of bad policies gone array. Instead of spending millions of dollars on the intimidation of immigrants, ICE and DHS should focus their efforts on putting their own paper work in order before busting into the home of an elderly woman, or anyone else for that matter. Undocumented immigrants are not to blame for this fiasco, the blame lies solely with ICE's out of control intimidation tactics and the failure of Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform. Self-deportation is a busted strategy and it'll not work. Scapegoating and blaming immigrants for flawed laws is reprehensible and does not contribute to finding a fair and just solution to this chaos. Jim Crow and Slavery were once the law of the land - unjust laws are made to be reformed.

How about all of the whites who are being discriminated against in predominantly Hispanic areas? Have you talked to any of them about their "experience??" How about the blacks who are being discriminated against by Hispanics and ethnically cleansed out of their neighborhoods? Hispanics are every bit as "racist" and tribal in mindset as any other ethnic/racial group. They are no better than anyone else.

I am sick and tired of these immigrant minorities and their victim/grievance mentality. If things are so bad here for minorities, why do they come here? Did anyone put a gun to their heads and force them to migrate to the U.S.??? Why didn't they go to Brazil or Argentina, Costa Rica or Uruguay?? I understand the economy is booming in Brazil. Stop coming here since it is such a racist country and their life is so miserable here!

By your comments, Patriot, it seems that you will never understand. Personally, I don't like the term minority, but the reason why there are numerous advocacy groups for minorities is that there is a clear need for them. Do your part to make their existence not needed. Shifted in the other direction? You are the one who is kidding.

about the blacks who are being discriminated against by Hispanics and ethnically cleansed out of their neighborhoods? Hispanics are every bit as "racist" and tribal in mindset as any other ethnic/racial group. They are no better than anyone else.

Ignorant people who don't like minorities tend to think of each minority as being in a distinct group that hates other minorities. I'm not going to deny that some Hispanics/Latinos do not like Blacks, but there are also many Hispanics/Latinos who are also Black. White people like to think that they are at war with each other. The strategy is to keep the oppressed fighting amongst themselves, rather than seeing where they are getting oppressed from the most.

robles, first it isn't "immgrants" that are being intimidated. It is illegal aliens and they should be intimidated! They are in this country illegally. So one should be exempt from our laws just because they are elderly? ICE is doing what they are supposed to be doing and that is to seek out and detain and deport illegals. Why do you as a U.S. citizen have a problem with our immigration laws being enforced?

That commentators remarks are idiotic and anti-American. We shouldn't be forced to have the kind of CIR that the illegal alien sympathizers want (who just happen to be mostly ethnically like the illegals) just to fix this situation. We need to tell the world that we will not allow the violation of our soverignty and immigration laws without them facing deportation and certainly not rewarding them for doing so!

Guess that commentator hasn't noticed that because of the raids many illegals are leaving out of fear of being next? So his remark that self-deportations aren't happening is ludicrous. If we mandate e-verify in the workplace, the majority of them would self-deport.

Our immigration laws are not unjust or flawed. We take in as many legal immigrants that we can without it having a negative effect on our country.

I am sick and tired of these immigrant minorities and their victim/grievance mentality. If things are so bad here for minorities, why do they come here?How about because they've been here for many years already. How about, because things are way worse in their country. Why do/did Europeans come here? Are you someone that looks at a minority and assumes that they just arrived here?

ICE is doing what they are supposed to be doing and that is to seek out and detain and deport illegals. Why do you as a U.S. citizen have a problem with our immigration laws being enforced?Supposed to be doing? How about a little common sense and respond appropriately to the situation? How about treating humans as humans, not cattle, or worse?

Why am I concerned? Because noone is free when others are oppressed. Because I know "illegals" and they are painted to be such foul, despicable, criminals. Because I believe in human decency.

This is a bigoted and racist statement as it is a sweeping statement about "white people" in general.

There is no "oppression" in the United States. Everyone has the opportunity to advance if they do what they need to do. But the left wants to keep people thinking that the only way they can advance is through the power of the government (which the leftists will control, of course).

The truth is that the key to success in the U.S. is education, personal responsibility, hard work and perseverance. Many, many Latinos are wildly successful in this country. There is an underclass. But Socialistic policies are not the answer.

I will say that I attended college with quite a few African Americans and Hispanics and got to know some of them quite well. TO A MAN, they were all receiving race/ethnic-based scholarships and grants. I, OTOH, did not receive any such benefits, even though my family was not as affluent as a few of these black and Hispanic students. I did receive an academic scholarship which greatly assisted me. I worked as many hours as I could. I still emerged with 10s of thousands of $$$ worth of loans to pay back. That's ok. I'll be fine and I will pay back my loan. In addition, I personally knew two black students from my school who were accepted to a particular university ahead of one Asian (my best friend) and one white kid who had better grades, better SAT scores, and more extracurricular involvement. It's called AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

I think that everyone should have equality of opportunity and I bear no ill will towards any group. But, Robles, stop acting like we are still living in 1950 Selma, Alabama. We are not. There are many, many programs to help minorities for education, home and small business loans which are NOT available to whites or Asians in many cases. Please. Stop.

In addition, whites are the MINORITY in many areas now. My own brother lives in a city which is overwhelmingly African-American, run by African Americans, with an African American mayor. The same with Hispanics. They are now the majority in many areas.

I just have to wonder why so many people would choose to immigrate to such a "racist" country where they have no opportunities. They hypocrisy is absolutely staggering as every interview I ever read with any "immigrant" states that they come here for a better life and they do not want to leave because their children have so much more opportunity here. Dee is a prime example of this.

Maybe those who feel this is such a racist and oppressive country(re: not leftist enough) should move to Socialist countries where they would be much happier and content.

Alie,My apologies. I did not mean to say that. I meant to say that some people, choose to think that people of other races do not get along with each other, are at war with each other. I am not living in the past. Just because there have been advances in how people think of others doesn't mean that oppression doesn't exist in this country.

I agree with you on "The truth is that the key to success in the U.S. is education, personal responsibility, hard work and perseverance." But there are still some people that aren't getting a fair shake. I'm not for removing affrimative action, but I do believe it needs to be updated to reflect the changes in society, and that includes looking beyond just race, such as looking into helping white people who are economically disadvantaged, and not helping minorities that are of privileged backgrounds that don't need help. Call me a socialist if you want. There is nothing wrong with a little bit of socialism.

I just have to wonder why so many people would choose to immigrate to such a "racist" country where they have no opportunities. They hypocrisy is absolutely staggering as every interview I ever read with any "immigrant" states that they come here for a better life and they do not want to leave because their children have so much more opportunity here.

Racism exists in other countries too. Our minimum wage is still way better than the "regular" wage of most Latin American countries.

I agree with a lot of your points. Yes, this country still has a way to go to level the playing field for all.

I guess I get my back up because in my age group (20s) things are so much different than they were years ago. I look at things differently than someone who lived through the Jim Crow South or pre-Civil Rights days.

My problem with affirmative action is partly what I said: that we are now living in the 21st century and after over 40 years of AA, many non-whites have now moved into the middle and upper classes, but are still receiving AA ahead of working class whites. You addressed that issue with me. But my other problem is this: affirmative action was originally meant to address inequalities in opportunity for primarily African Americans. During the mid-60s, the U.S. population was mostly white and African American. The Hispanic population was around 4%.

So, it would have made sense back then to have this program (even if one didn't agree with it, one could still see the basis for it).

However, we now have non-whites coming in from ALL OVER THE WORLD. People who have NO HISTORY of oppression whatsoever in the U.S. In fact, some of these people are quite well off in their own native lands. Yet once they set foot on U.S. soil, they automatically become "oppressed minorities." Like I said, whites ARE now the minority in many areas. This system is so outdated it isn't even funny, and if it is not addressed soon, there is going to be racial resentment coming from whites. (There already is). And I really don't want to see that as it will create even more division.

I am dead set against Socialism because one of my parents comes from a country with a lot of Socialism and it just kills creativity, innovation, and ambition. It makes people lazy. Those who have talent and intelligence (like me) just don't want to work that hard because they know if they do, the government will take a lot of their income. They will get benefits even if they don't work that hard. So, they just lay back.

I'm not opposed to helping people, but there needs to be strings attached. IOW, people need to meet certain requirments and benchmarks to continue receiving aid. It shouldn't just be a give away because that makes people lazy, kills their self-esteem and their soul.

Finally, there are just some people regardless of their race or ethnicity who are losers and are always looking for a fast buck or to game the system. I am dead-set against tax money going towards these folks.

Elderly and truly physically or incapacitated people should be treated compassionately. And I can understand that people make mistakes. But when they continue to live irresponsible lives and make bad choices, the taxpayers shouldn't be responsible for picking up the slack.

And, yes, I am also against corporate welfare and corruption. Capitalism is far and away the most efficient economic system, but can be abused and corrupted (like it is being now). But I still say Socialism is not the answer.

Freedom like our founding fathers envisioned for this country is the answer. The freedom to succeed or fail and make your own choices.

I have a lot of potential for my coming life and the ability to accomplish a lot of things for myself and this country. But I swear if the government comes in and takes over half of my income, say 20 years from now, I'm just going to sit on my behind and put my hand out like everyone else. THAT'S why Socialism does not work. It is againt human nature. People want to be rewarded for success, not punished.

robles said... I don’t have a problem with race/ethnic background/ perceived nationality playing a role (not the only role) in pinpointing who is and who isn’t an offender. I have a problem with it when it becomes the sole focus on who is perceived as an offender; I have a problem when people of a perceived race/ethnic background/ perceived nationality are treated differently than others based SOLELY on that; I have a problem with referring to people who are undocumented immigrants as ALL criminal. It excuses the bad behavior we are seeing, which discounts the status of these people as human beings, based solely on the perception of race/ethnicity/nationality.

robles said... Ignorant people who don't like minorities tend to think of each minority as being in a distinct group that hates other minorities. I'm not going to deny that some Hispanics/Latinos do not like Blacks, but there are also many Hispanics/Latinos who are also Black. White people like to think that they are at war with each other. The strategy is to keep the oppressed fighting amongst themselves, rather than seeing where they are getting oppressed from the most.

Oh, and I also agree that race/ethnicity should not be the sole determining factor in profiling.

I always said this when the discussion of profiling at airports came up. People made the argument (and they had a point) that we shouldn't bother frisking 70-year-old grandmothers when we knew that the profile for terrorists were Middle Eastern males between the ages of 16 - 45 (I think that was the range). And it does make sense if you think about it. However, once they know that you are only profiling that one ethnic group, they will get European converts or white Muslims from Bosnia. And so I was against that from a pragmatic standpoint. It's a tough situation, but we need to use a combination of profiling factors.

It's different if you are looking for a criminal suspect who is described as white, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. Of course if someone claims that they were mugged by a white man, you aren't going to question black women.

But in the case of illegal immigration I do think it's a little different. Granted, the majority of illegals are Latino. However, most Latinos in the U.S. are legal residents or citizens.

I fully see Patriot's point that if you are here legally, you should have no fear. But, personally, I wouldn't want to be pulled over or looked upon with suspicion all of the time. I don't know how common this is with citizen Latinos.

I still think that the most efficient way to handle illegal immigration is to remove the reason they come. Target the employers. Of course, I am in favor of checking the legal status of criminals and turning them over to I.C.E. if they are here illegally, regardless of where their country of origin is. That's just common sense and protects everyone. Immigrant communities are often the ones preyed upon most by these criminals.

dee, apparently you didn't read my post where I corrected my error. In my original post I said I WAS in therapy for life rather than WASN'T, I corrected that stated in my post just below the original one. I didn't proof read my post. I have NEVER been in therapy for anything. If I were, this would be one of the last places I would come to retain my mental health, lol.

Pat,This is where you totally miss the mark. What you fail to understand is ALL BROWN PEOPLE, regardless of citizenship status, are impacted by Racial Profiling and Sheriff Arpaios Suppression sweeps. He targets the Latino neighborhoods. He and his men stormtrooped a Confirmation Mass. I saw the children crying, in fear. He violated their civil liberties when he stormtrooped the area. The same with ICE. They storm into Latino neighborhoods, like this woman. This was a clear case of mistaken identity, yet she did not even receive an apology.

These are citizens being impacted because of the color of their skin. THIS IS CALLED RACIAL PROFILING and it is AGAINST THE LAW!

I have said this at least a thousand times to you PAt yet you REFUSE to understand!Because you dont want to understand.

patriot said... robles, first it isn't "immgrants" that are being intimidated. It is illegal aliens and they should be intimidated!

robles, I don't know of many "ignorant" people who supposedly don't like minorities think that the different minority groups don't like each other in general. Any cases of having knowledge of this happening from time to time comes from facts, not speculation or wishful thinking. There is no "strategy" to keep the minorities fighting amongst themselves to keep them oppressed. You have no proof of that only your own or some other biased sources opinion.

There isn't near the oppression of minorities as there use to be. But it appears no matter how much we do for minorities it is never enough. The victim train rides on and is so much more beneficial, isn't it? White and other non-hispanic Americans in many states now have to be able to speak Spanish in this English speaking country to get a job in their own country! Guess you don't care about that oppression though, do you? That is only the tip of the iceberg, too.

I repeat again, that most Americans don't think that all or even most illegal aliens commit other heinous crimes when they come here. It is a fact that they violated our immigration laws and that many do use fake or stolen I.D. to work and that part is a serious crime. If you insist on stating otherwise then back it up with viable statistics or stop repeating that nonsense in here!

All criminals including illegal aliens who only entered our country illegally do get basic human rights. Stop the nonsense that they don't! It is nonsense that legal Hispanics are treated any differently than other ethnic groups also. I don't call being asked for I.D. as being treated differently either because it is no big deal in the first place unless one has something to hide.

That is a flat out lie about me, dee!! I do not think that most Hispanics are newly arrived here nor do any other anti's! Don't start your lies again unless you are prepared to back them up with reliable statistics!! Stop with your stupid skin color BS too. Just because one has brown skin doesn't automtically make them Hispanic. You just infuriate me when you exaggerate and tell lies in here!!

Oh my God! Do we have to go over Sheriff Joe yet again??? You just beat a dead horse to death, don't you dee???? Sheriff Joe's territory is mostly Hispanic populated so of course Hispanics just by numbers are more likely to be stopped for traffic violations, etc. and he has been exhonerated of any racial profiling charges. You know better than the law does???

The woman in the video had very light skin, not brown skin and her last name wasn't even Hispanic! God what a whiney, victim mentality you have for your raza. When are you going to consider Americans your people other than just Hispanics? I am sick to death of your skin color obsession also. I know of not one person who has a problem with brown skin color. It is all about their status in this country. Stop your BS, dee or I will leave here for good!

Alie,I know you are an intelligent young person and I commend you for your hard work, drive and education. However, I sense a great deal of pent up frustration in every comment you post Alie. You make some very general statements and state them as fact. Example below. Every ONE of them (hundreds)? To a MAN? You checked? Or are you ASSUMing?

Alie said...I will say that I attended college with quite a few African Americans and Hispanics and got to know some of them quite well. TO A MAN, they were all receiving race/ethnic-based scholarships and grants.

Alie,Racism exists in this country as it does in most countries. To point it out and to want to fix it is a positive thing. Many minorities, like my ancestors, have lived here for hundreds of years. This is our country too and we want our country to be the best in the world! Corrections have been made to BAD laws like anti slavery laws, Civil Rights laws and the end to Jim Crow, Civil Liberties improvements.

No, Dee, I meant the ones that I got to be close to. We discussed this issue and they admitted to me that they were all receiving grants and scholarships based on race/ethnicity.

What is really sad is that one girl told me in private that she knew she was a recipent of affimative action benefits and she always wondered way in the back of her mind if she would have gotten in without it. I felt bad for her as I really liked her and did think she was a bright girl. I thought that she would have made it even without the AA and told her so. But I don't know if she ever fully believed it.

Yes, I guess you can say that it was somewhat irritating to me that less qualified people got into their choice colleges solely because of affirmative action over others who were more qualified. And that some of those who got grants and race-based scholarships were less financially needy that I was. But it's not like it dominates my life; I didn't hold it against the individuals who were my friends. I knew it was the way the system was set up. I will be ok and I will pay back all of my loans. I have a good life with all of its ups and downs.

Dee, many groups of people have faced discrimination in this country. My own ancestors did as well. There were no "Civil Rights" groups or ACLU to go to bat for them either. They had to fend for themselves. Eventually, they proved that they were good citizens. They didn't play the victim card and nobody would have listened to them if they had. And there were no welfare benefits back when they came either. They either made it on their own or went back home. Whatever kids they had, they had to support on their own without taxpayer assistance. Many of them DID go back to the homeland.

Racism exists in all societies and among all racial groups. No group is immune. There is racism and aggression against whites who live in predominantly non-white areas. I am personally aquainted with a family who live in a predominantly African American area and their little boy is constantly picked on and called racial names by the black children. But all you ever hear about is racism against non-whites. Like I said, whites are a minority in many areas now. Where are their special preferences and rights in those areas? They have none, though, do they? When whites are a minority, there will be as much racism towards them as there was towards non-white minorities. But nobody will care. It will be called "payback" by some.

I just wonder as whites become a minority in the entire country, if Affirmative Action is still going to be in place for the majority. That's a fair question, don't you think?

Dee, I really don't think it matters how long ones family has been here. Just because my family has only been here 100 years or so does not make me any less American than you or any less wanting the best for my country. I also do not consider myself more of an American than someone who just became a citizen yesterday.

But it is NOT racism to expect that foreigners from any country respect your country's immigration laws. That's a whole different subject.

Alie,AA indicates all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran. You sound like you are referencing Grants or Scholarships for lower income, including minorities. I also know of groups that sponsor degree programs and scholarships for Latinos. But historically, there are groups that provide scholarships to athletes, other ethnicities-minorities, women, business sponsored scholarships, etc. You just have to find them, apply and qualify. Not all apply to everyone.

Dee says:"Corrections have been made to BAD laws like anti slavery laws, Civil Rights laws and the end to Jim Crow, Civil Liberties improvements."

BAD Laws?? More like as the minorities (African-Americans) of those times enlarged in their populations, the laws became UNFAIR to all Citizens of the USA.

Illegal Aliens have no RIGHTS granted to them by our Constitution, they are granted Human Rights by our agreement of the Constitution of the United Nations. Therefor, how can our Immigration laws then be BAD or unjust or in need of change?? Our laws are not set up or meant to benefit foreigners, they are meant to benefit Citizens and LPR/GC holders.

As most Illegal Aliens are Economic Refugees they are not permitted to apply for asylum. The economic disparities between countries does not grant them the right to falsely represent themselves to obtain a better life here.

Dee says:"Like MLK, I have a dream...where we will not be judged by the color of our skin but by the content of our character."

If Illegal Aliens were judged on their Personal Character or even their Rule-based Character, after the lies they have told and the positions they put upon themselves (stolen/purchased documentation, aliases, etc.), they fail. It is this judgment of character that is most seen by the Citizenry of the USA.

Really, Dee? Are you then saying that non-whites are less inclined to racism than whites were? If there is racism now against "minorities," why won't there be racism agains the new minority? Care to elaborate? I would really like to hear your reasoning on this one.

Dee, there are groups which provide scholarships to Latinos for sure because some of the friends I had at school told me that were recipients. But can you imagine a scholarship program for only "deserving white students." Yeah, right.

Alie,Your comments remind me of the child who asked his mom on mother´s day, "When is Kid´s Day?" and she responded "Every other day of the Year!"

Alie said... Dee, there are groups which provide scholarships to Latinos for sure because some of the friends I had at school told me that were recipients. But can you imagine a scholarship program for only "deserving white students." Yeah, right.

Alie,Yes.Minorities want equality not superiority! Those that are Racist believe they are Superior NOT equal and do NOT wish equality! (like someone who just mentioned they opposed the Civil Rights Laws, perhaps they want Slavery and the Jim Crow laws back in place, longing for the days of Tara!)

Alie said... Really, Dee? Are you then saying that non-whites are less inclined to racism than whites were? If there is racism now against "minorities," why won't there be racism agains the new minority? Care to elaborate? I would really like to hear your reasoning on this one.

Alie,Remember.Affirmative Action was put in place to ensure all individuals have an EQUAL opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran.

"Giving just one example of how this is untrue, haven't you heard of the rampant violations in detention centers across the country? Are those not human rights violations?"

They are not Human Rights Violations as the detainee is not arbitrarily arrested and detained. The short comings of the detention centers themselves have been addressed and do not fall under UN Violations of Human Rights either. Faults of which you are referring would fall under local laws. Read the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

Maybe I didn't make it clear...My statement of: BAD Laws?? More like as the minorities (African-Americans) of those times enlarged in their populations, the laws became UNFAIR to all Citizens of the USA.

Meaning the Civil Rights Laws were put in place because the African-Americans were Citizens of the USA that were being denied the Bill of Rights. The laws were unfair to them as citizens.

robles, the problems there were in the detention centers have been corrected long ago.

No, I am not Hispanic but living in Calif. I know many of them personally and they say you are incorrect about them being treated unfairly or being discriminated against for the most part. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule but it isn't rampant as you are suggesting.

Then why the need for AA?? People should then be hired and given their opportunity based on their individual intelligence and capabilities, not because I don't have enough of one race working for my company.

The term affirmative action describes many policies aimed at a historically socio-politically non-dominant group (typically, minority men or women of all racial groups) intended to promote its access to education or employment. Motivation for affirmative action is a desire to redress negative effects of actual or perceived, past or current discrimination that is regarded as unfair by relevant legislative bodies. It also serves to encourage public institutions such as universities, hospitals and police forces to be more representative of the populations they serve.

This is commonly achieved through targeted recruitment programs aimed at applicants from socio-politically disadvantaged groups. In some cases affirmative action involves giving preferential treatment to these groups.

The detainees currently held as of June 2008 have been classified by the United States as "enemy combatants". After claims were made that these detainees were not entitled to any of the protections of the Geneva Conventions, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on 29 June 2006 that they were entitled to the minimal protections listed under its Common Article 3.

It does not fall under the Jurisdiction of the US Criminal Laws. If anything it falls under UCMJ which the civilian government has minimal jurisdiction.

Liquid, I think I shared this story before but it is very appropriate for the discussion.

When I was a new manager, the upper levels were discussing EEO-AA at one of there leadership meetings and I was invited (probably as a token, but also because I was they thought I was a hotshot).

The VP (leader of the meeting) asked the group their views of how to implement AA on their teams. We had all the reports in front of us. We had the number of offices, the number of employees, the ratio of minorities to all employees (something like 1 in 10) vs the areas demographic (also minorities 1 in 10) so we were consistent there, however, when we looked at manager to occupational ratio, we were more like 2 in 100, a very significant variance. And if you looked at the leadership table, it was zero and 1 visitor (me). Some of the managers were angry! One was very red faced, yelling, swearing! Saying only those that were qualified should be promoted. People were very uncomfortable, partially because I was at the table and it was like they were airing their dirty laundry. The VP was a nice, intelligent, hard working, hands-on type. As he went around the table there were some good ideas, and suggestions. Then the VP asked me what thought. I told him what I thought. I said the current process wasnt working because promotions were "hand picked". People were mentored for promotions by like minded people. I said we had plenty of qualified minorities but they didnt stand a chance. One of the suggestions was to set standard measures for promotions based on appraisals and numerical performance. Self Nominations were permissable. Then round tables where peers and manager made the selections based on qualifications and standard interviews-question sets. (actually I helped my boss develop this idea). I said I thought it was important we implement a plan like this along with standard report cards-evaluations for all teams. The VP, my boss and others loved the idea. Old Red Face hated it, but did go along with it. Within a couple of years our ratio of new minority managers to new managers were consistent with each location´s demographics.

Alie,Your comments remind me of the child who asked his mom on mother´s day, "When is Kid´s Day?" and she responded "Every other day of the Year!"

Sorry, Dee. Not every white kid was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. We are no longer living in the Jim Crow era or the pre-Civil Rights days. We have come a long, long way since then. Everyone can vote, everyone can attended integrated schools. Everyone has legal recourse if they feel they are being discriminated on the job through the EEOC or other legal channels.

There are now many affluent minorities, including Latinos. Many of them are much more affluent than a lot of whites for various reasons.

If they can have special scholarship funds targeted towards helping their children, so should we. Time to come up to date and end the double standards.

As far as affirmative action goes, I wouldn't WANT to be hired over a man just because I am a female. I don't give a rip if women were oppressed in the past or even if they still are. I don't feel oppressed. I want to be judged on my own merit. I can stand on my own!

Passing a person over for a job and giving it to another based upon race or gender IS discrimination regardless of the race of the person who is passed over. Let everyone be judged on their own abilities and merits.

AA means providing an equal playing field. AA reports view the demographics. The process we followed did not provide preferential treatment, merely made the playing field even for all. That is all AA is trying to accomplish!

I never denied there was no racism in America or in the world. Racism is not, however, the purview of only white people. White people are the victims now of racism BY non-whites, especially in areas where they are minorities. You just don't want to admit that.

The term affirmative action describes many policies aimed at a historically socio-politically non-dominant group (typically, minority men or women of all racial groups) intended to promote its access to education or employment. Motivation for affirmative action is a desire to redress negative effects of actual or perceived, past or current discrimination that is regarded as unfair by relevant legislative bodies. It also serves to encourage public institutions such as universities, hospitals and police forces to be more representative of the populations they serve.

This is commonly achieved through targeted recruitment programs aimed at applicants from socio-politically disadvantaged groups. In some cases affirmative action involves giving preferential treatment to these groups.

Did you read that last line, let me repeat it: In some cases affirmative action involves giving preferential treatment to these groups.

What your story of your business does has nothing to do with AA from what you helped to create. AA was what they were trying to achieve in the beginning by giving preferential treatment to a minority for the position, instead you gave an idea to make things viable on a merit and numerical preference, i.e. those deserving the job based on knowledge and performance.

The good ol' boy network?? Your comprehension is lacking again. I agreed with what you helped to implement at your company, a system based on performance and merit, all have a shot fairly. I do not agree with affirmative action, i.e. giving preferential treatment to these minorities simply based on the fact that not enough our either working for me or that there are not enough in management positions in my company.

By the late '70s, however, flaws in the policy began to show up amid its good intentions. Reverse discrimination became an issue, epitomized by the famous Bakke case in 1978. Allan Bakke, a white male, had been rejected two years in a row by a medical school that had accepted less qualified minority applicants-the school had a separate admissions policy for minorities and reserved 16 out of 100 places for minority students. The Supreme Court outlawed inflexible quota systems in affirmative action programs, which in this case had unfairly discriminated against a white applicant. In the same ruling, however, the Court upheld the legality of affirmative action per se.

But in a landmark 2003 case involving the University of Michigan's affirmative action policies-one of the most important rulings on the issue in twenty-five years-the Supreme Court decisively upheld the right of affirmative action in higher education. Two cases, first tried in federal courts in 2000 and 2001, were involved: the University of Michigan's undergraduate program (Gratz v. Bollinger) and its law school (Grutter v. Bollinger). The Supreme Court (5-4) upheld the University of Michigan Law School's policy, ruling that race can be one of many factors considered by colleges when selecting their students because it furthers "a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body." The Supreme Court, however, ruled (6-3) that the more formulaic approach of the University of Michigan's undergraduate admissions program, which uses a point system that rate students and awards additional points to minorities, had to be modified. The undergraduate program, unlike the law school's, did not provide the "individualized consideration" of applicants deemed necessary in previous Supreme Court decisions on affirmative action.

In the Michigan cases, the Supreme Court ruled that although affirmative action was no longer justified as a way of redressing past oppression and injustice, it promoted a "compelling state interest" in diversity at all levels of society.

OMAHA, Neb. - When it comes to Ward Connerly, the California businessman on a state-by-state war against affirmative action, it's hard for many people on either side of the issue to be colorblind.

If he were white, his message that racial preferences are damaging to everyone would ring hollow. As a black man, his positions have inflamed some supporters of affirmative action who have called him "race traitor" or worse.

He's succeeded in three states, faltered in a few others, and now he's looking to Nov. 4, when voters in Nebraska and Colorado will decide initiatives he helped put on the ballot.......Affirmative action has become entrenched in American life and state by state, Connerly said in a recent interview with The Associated Press, and "we're changing that."

"If I thought it could be done — poof — flash of the wand, I'd be naive," Connerly said.

Affirmative action, he said, is an antiquated system that, rather than helping minorities, reinforces the perception they are second-class citizens who need help to succeed.

Connerly's proposed constitutional amendments prohibit state and local governments from giving preferential treatment to people on the basis of race, sex, ethnicity or national origin.

liquid states: Actually, by definition there are not Human Rights Violations in the detention centers.

Could you explain how, by definition, human rights are not violated in detention centers?

patriot states: "the problems there were in the detention centers have been corrected long ago.

Oh really? Problems in detention centers were corrected a long time ago? What planet are you living in? Funny you mention OneAmerica, formerly called HateFreeZone. Had you bothered to look more closely at their website, you would've found an article about CURRENT human rights violations that ICE basically is choosing to ignore.

ICE cannot ignore this report forever, but it does illustrate that there are VERY CURRENT human rights violations taking place arguably, in every detention center in our country.

No, I am not Hispanic but living in Calif. I know many of them personally and they say you are incorrect about them being treated unfairly or being discriminated against for the most part. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule but it isn't rampant as you are suggesting."

patriot states: "I think the agenda of "oneamerica" is pretty clear here. No different than any other so-called "immigrant" advocacy group's agenda and we know what that is. Notice the reference to a "hate free zone"?"

http://www.weareoneamerica.com/article.php?list=type&type=68

Thanks for providing a link. They are well respected in the immigrant community in Seattle. All immigrants!

alie states:"White people are the victims now of racism BY non-whites, especially in areas where they are minorities."

Could you have meant, perhaps, that SOME White people are vicitms now of racism by SOME non-whites?

I meant to say also in my previous comment (which I prematurely sent) that I know a fair amount of "Hispanics" that mark the "White" box also on census forms, and "surprise, surprise, they don't think there is any oppression going on. Not a lot, anyway..." FYI, not everyone who is Hispanic will experience the same amount of oppression. I don't think anyone here thinks or states that all Hispanics experience racism and/or oppression.

liquid,Here's part of the article from OneAmerica that I mentioned above, concerning detention centers and human rights violations:

We measured the conditions at the NWDC against the requirements of international law and domestic Constitutional law,” said Gwynne Skinner, an international human rights expert who oversaw the Seattle University/OneAmerica study.

“Conditions at the detention center violate obligations under international law, including customary international law and the Refugee Convention. The center’s holding of asylees in detention violates the U.S.’s obligations under the Refugee Convention and constitute cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment.”

Skinner also says the conditions at the center violate the 5th Amendment of the Constitution in that they amount to punishment. However, there is no domestic statutory law that governs the conditions of federal immigrant detention centers. There are the National Detention Standards, issued in 2000, that give guidance, but they are not binding. Even those standards are not being followed.

Other rights being violated include the right to counsel, the right to family unity, due process violations due to the forced signing of papers, right to medical treatment, especially emergency medical treatment and mental health treatment.

Violations of immigration law are civil violations not criminal violations. The detention center in Tacoma is designed to hold people who have committed civil violations and is only meant to be a short term holding facility. But many are held long-term in conditions that are worse than a prison, and the population of the center is twice that of what the building was designed for.

Patriot,You have asked, at least a couple of times, "Why, as a US citizen, should anyone care about how "illegals' are treated?"

The answer is, that as a US citizen, I believe we need to treat fellow human beings as...well, as fellow human beings! You may think that it is a horrendous crime to sneak into this country and steal a SSN to work, and to continue to speak in one's native tongue and to NOT assimilate, and to send money back to the home country. This is still not the same thing as committing acts of murder, assault, rape, theft, etc. I give you credit for at least recognizing that most undocumented immigrants do not commit violent crimes like murder, or assault, but nevertheless you seem to think that the government, and anyone else, for that matter, has the right to treat these people as less than human, which is what we are seeing in ICE raids, detention centers, and also what is currently causing a rise in hate crimes against Hispanics and Latinos. This includes a fair amount of Hispanic/Latino US citizens and legal residents.

(are you still wondering why I am concerned?)

Even using a false SSN, or even someone else's SSN, is not committed with the same malice as someone who, for example, steals your wallet, SSN card, pin number, etc, for the intent and purpose of making purchases or maxing out credit cards, (i.e., out to steal as much money as they can from whom they steal from, etc.) The recent raid in Postville, IA showed that most of the immigrant workers didn't even know what a SSN was.

So, while I'm not suggesting that people living here as undocumented immigrants, is perfectly acceptable, (I am for comprehensive immigration reform, not open borders), I don't believe that ALL undocumented immigrants are criminals, (Some are)

OR

that some are not worthy of basic human rights.(All are worthy)

I believe and have hope still that we as a country could come up with humane solutions and come up with humane comprehensive immigration reform that doesn't stomp on the dignity of human beings. But we don't have to wait for the government to pass a law to dictate that we need to treat humans as humans. We can make changes in how we think of undocumented immigrants and can start treating them better, RIGHT NOW.

“As Americans concerned with upholding our Constitution and ensuring justice, we should remember that America is degraded when our government fails to uphold those very rights that make this country great. When some people’s rights are abused, all our rights can be abused.”

Robles, of course I didn't mean that EVERY single white person is a victim of non-white racism! Not every white person who is a minority in a non-white area experiences hostility or oppression. Not every white kid who attends a mostly African American or Latino school gets beat up and called hateful racial names. Just as you said that not all Hispanics experience hostility and oppression. Sorry that I wasn't more precise in my language.

robles, FYI I read much of the "oneamerica" website including their report on the detention centers. The reason I don't believe their report is because they are a biased organization..."an immigrant advocacy group". They refer to illegal aliens as immigrants. I dispelled anything they had to say after that. Another reason was their reference to "no more hate zone", that also sent up a red flag to me that like most so-called "immigrant" advocacy groups they feel it is racist to enforce our immigration laws and are biased. I rest my case.

robles, since you pointed out to alie that SOME whites are the victims of racism by SOME non-whites are you also willing to admit that SOME Hispanics are the victims of racism by SOME whites and stop whining about all the discrimination against Hispanics today? Probably not!

You make some good points Robles, thy are not discounted. However, I have already read that article and gave my information and link to the UN Charter. Article 9 is that of which they are trying to use, I already answered that above. Article 10 states: Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

The problem is that "Illegal Aliens" are not being held as 'criminals' and therefor do not fall under much of any of the doctrines. Some confuse misdemeanor and felony criminal acts with that of civil and criminal acts. To put it in an even more simplistic context; if I am the one going against you in court, it is civil, if the government is taking you to court, it is criminal.

In civil law, a private party (a corporation or individual person) files the lawsuit and becomes the plaintiff. In criminal law, the litigation is always filed by the government, who is called the prosecution.

Criminal law is much better known to laymen than civil law. They often misapply principles from criminal law to situations in civil (e.g., tort) law, which results in their misunderstanding.

Illegally entering the US is a crime. Unlawful presence is not a federal crime. However, it is a removable offense under the Immigration Act. As illegal immigrants are not citizens of the U.S., they do not have the same rights as a U.S. citizen. Their deportation hearing takes place before an immigration judge. Since the penalty is deportation and/or a fine and/or jail time, many people think of the Immigration Court as a civil court. In fact, the Immigration Court is a criminal court, as it is the government prosecuting the offense.

But immigration proceedings are matters of administrative law, not criminal law. (As a result, the consequence of violating your immigration status is not jail but deportation.) And Congress has nearly full authority to regulate immigration without interference from the courts. Because immigration is considered a matter of national security and foreign policy, the Supreme Court has long held that immigration law is largely immune from judicial review. Congress can make rules for immigrants that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens.

When illegal entry is treated as a matter of criminal law, instead of being expelled through an administrative proceeding, those accused have the right to a jury trial and all the rules of evidence apply. The government is burdened with "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Imagine the cost and the caseload, that's why they are encouraged to sign a document admitting their status and quickly removed vs. waiting here for a hearing which could take up to 2 years all the time they are in jail awaiting. Most sign so they don't have to sit in jail and can be deported expediently.

All those in detention centers are not being held on criminal law charges, they are being held on Administrative Law charges, awaiting enough persons to one country to make the trip, full aircraft.

robles, let me clarify myself. I wasn't implying that no American citizen should care if an illegal alien isn't given basic human rights. I find no evidence that they aren't given basic human rights. The problem is that those like you and dee think it should go beyond just basic human rights and you are both citizens. So let me rephrase the question. Why do you as an American citizen defend illegal aliens beyond their basic human rights? Raiding their homes to detain and deport them does not violate their basic human rights for example. Rewarding them with amnesty is another example of going beyond giving them their basic human rights is another example.

robles, I am not equating identity theft or using fake SS numbers to rape or murder. They would't even carry the same penalties for an American who might commit any of those crimes but it still is a felony and an American would be subject to prison time for doing so. Please don't play down such a serious crime. It has affected many Americans very negatively. Ignorance on the part of the illegal alien is no excuse either. They knew what they were doing when they entered our country illegally in the first place.

We think it clear that detention or temporary confinement, as part of the means necessary to give effect to the provisions for the exclusion or expulsion of aliens, would be valid. Proceedings to exclude or expel would be vain if those accused could not be held in custody pending the inquiry into their true character, and while arrangements were being made for their deportation. Detention is a usual feature in every case of arrest on a criminal charge, even when an innocent person a wrongfully accused, but it is not imprisonment in a legal sense.

So too, we think it would be plainly competent for Congress to declare the act of an alien in remaining unlawfully within the United States to be an offense punishable by fine or imprisonment if such offense were to be established by a judicial trial.

Thus, in the case of Fong Yue Ting v. United States, 149 U. S. 730, MR. JUSTICE GRAY used the following significant language:

"The proceeding before a United States judge, as provided for in section 6 of the act of 1892, is in no proper sense a trial and sentence for a crime or offense. It is simply the ascertainment, by appropriate and lawful means, of the fact whether the conditions exist upon which Congress has enacted that an alien of this class may remain within the country. The order of deportation is not a punishment for crime. It is not a 'banishment,' in the sense in which that word is often applied to the expulsion of a citizen from his country by way of punishment. It is but a method of enforcing the return to his own country of an alien who has not complied with the conditions upon the performance of which the government of the nation, acting within its constitutional authority and through the proper departments, has determined that his continuing to reside here shall depend. He has not, therefore, been deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process or law, and the provisions of the Constitution securing the right of trial by jury and prohibiting unreasonable searches and seizures and cruel and unusual punishments have no application."

Robles said....I believe and have hope still that we as a country could come up with humane solutions and come up with humane comprehensive immigration reform that doesn't stomp on the dignity of human beings. But we don't have to wait for the government to pass a law to dictate that we need to treat humans as humans. We can make changes in how we think of undocumented immigrants and can start treating them better, RIGHT NOW.

Liquid,It is sad the government does not keep to their own rulings. Most Detention Centers have deplorable conditions and the detainees are, in fact, treated like prisoners.

It is too bad the courts do not abide by the results of the case.

Facts of the Case

The Chinese Exclusion Act imposed imprisonment at hard labor and deportation to Chinese persons convicted of unlawful entry to or presence in the United States. Wong Wing was charged under the Act. A commissioner of the Circuit Court (who was not a judge) found that Wong Wing was an unlawful alien and sentenced him to 60 days at hard labor followed by deportation to China. Wong Wing sought a writ of habeas corpus, but it was denied. He appealed to the Supreme Court.

Question

Does penalty of imprisonment at hard labor and deportation without a jury trial constitute a violation of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments?

Conclusion

Yes; consequently, the imprisonment provisions of the Act are void. Congress may deport without a jury trial, but imprisonment at hard labor is an infamous offense calling for judicial trial to establish the guilt of the accused. "It is not consistent with our theory of government that the legislature should, after having defined an offense as an infamous crime, find the fact of guilt and adjudge the punishment by one of its own agents."

On the other hand, it is contended on behalf of the government that it has never been decided by this Court that in all cases where the punishment may be confinement at hard labor, the crime is infamous, and many cases are cited from the reports of the state supreme courts where the constitutionality of statutes providing for summary proceedings, without a jury trial, for the punishment by imprisonment at hard labor of vagrants and disorderly persons, had been upheld. These courts have held that the constitutional guaranties refer to such crimes and misdemeanors as have, by the regular course of the law, and the established modes of procedure, been the subject of trial by jury, and that they do not embrace every species of accusation involving penal consequences. It is urged that the offense of being and remaining unlawfully within the limits of the United States by an alien is a political offense, and is not within the common law cases triable only by a jury, and that the Constitution does not apply to such a case.

You confuse someone who has been charged with a crime vs someone who has been charged with administrative offenses, which I have previously defined.

There is an evident implication in this language of a distinction between those provisions of the statute which contemplate only the exclusion or expulsion of Chinese persons and those which provide for their imprisonment at hard labor, pending which their deportation is suspended.

Our views upon the question thus specifically pressed upon our attention may be briefly expressed thus: we regard it as settled by our previous decisions that the United States can, as a matter of public policy, by congressional enactment, forbid aliens or classes of aliens from coming within their borders and expel aliens or classes of aliens from their territory, and can, in order to make effectual such decree of exclusion or expulsion, devolve the power and duty of identifying and arresting the persons included in such decree, and causing their deportation, upon executive or subordinate officials.

But when Congress sees fit to further promote such a policy by subjecting the persons of such aliens to infamous punishment at hard labor, or by confiscating their property, we think such legislation, to be valid, must provide for a judicial trial to establish the guilt of the accused.

The Syllable explains the outcome:Syllabus

Detention or temporary confinement, as part of the means necessary to give effect to the exclusion or expulsion of Chinese aliens is valid.

The United States can forbid aliens from coming within their borders, and expel them from their territory, and can devolve the power and duty of identifying and arresting such persons upon executive or subordinate officials, but when Congress sees fit to further promote such a policy by subjecting the persons of such aliens to infamous punishment at hard labor, or by confiscating their property, such legislation, to be valid, must provide for a judicial trial to establish the guilt of the accused.

The only time an "Illegal Alien" has any Rights is if they are charged with an infamous crime. Look to those, as Robles pointed out, in Postville charged with ID Fraud. They are entitled to trial as stated in Wong Wing due to being charged with a crime.

Otherwise, an "Illegal Alien" who is charged with the administrative charge of unlawful presence, has NO 'Rights' and is subject to immediate detention and/or deportation.

I agree with Chris Rock.He said he will NEVER agree with the ANTIs on this Immigration issue.

Chris Rock said, "As soon as they get all the Mexicans, WE are Next!"

Another example of the attitude that makes multi-ethnic societies impossible. Blacks and Hispanics will always be aggrieved (e.g. Robles) and convinced whites are out to get them. Dee, you are also a prime example of this with your talk of "stormtroopers" and your constant hyperbole. What more do whites need to convince them that a multi-ethnic, diversity "paradise" will be nothing more than a chaos of squabbling ethnic groups, each trying to exploit a bloated, socialist government funded by the remaining whites and Asians?

How about the right to have a nation and to preserve its identity? We as ethnic (white) Americans are being denied that right. As a Hispanic, you probably can't understand our point of view.

Essentially, HFZ and other immigrant agitation organizations are hate filled zones; hate against whites and white America. Their goal is to destroy white America and utterly transform its traditional ethnic identity. To them, America is nothing more than a free-enterprise zone, a mere legal and economic entity.

Hi Dee, Again, thanks for allowing me to put mis dos centavos here. Confession time: I'm actually Fake Mexican from other post, plus a few anonymous comments. My last name isn't Robles either. Not trying to be deceitful with identity or anything, just haven't figured out my online identities! I live in Seattle, where OneAmerica is based.

Dee said:I am SO Glad you Joined us! If you dont mind, can you tell us a little more about you? Just what you want to share.

from hran: Their (HFZ, or One America) goal is to destroy white America and utterly transform its traditional ethnic identity.

With all due respect, Hran, how does One America destroy white America? What exactly is "white America? Why isn't the "traditional ethnic identity" of this country Native American?

I volunteered a few times for One America. Does that make me a white American destoyer? Mainly I called their new voter registration list, who happen to be mostly Russian immigrants that were newly sworn in as US citizens.

Pardon me, you guys, I haven't had time to read the previous comments and I see there have been a lot of them. I just wanted to respond to hran, since he's talking about One America, and from my standpoint, I don't understand how they could be accused of such a thing (destroying white America.)

"" the whole confusion started because Olga savage has TWO alien registration numbers. One number states that she is a U.S. Citizen and

THE OTHER STATES THAT SHE IS A FUGITIVE.

If law enforcement thought this person was a fugitive from justice, they had a right to force entry. What kind of info did ICE have? Did they have information that the "fugitive" was a murderer, a rapist, a drug dealer?

If law enforcement has info that a person suspected of criminal activity is living in a certain area, they do not give that person warning (so they can escape), THEY MAKE THE BUST.

Patriot said:Are you kidding me, robles? Minorities have so many advocacy groups fighting for them anymore that discrimination has shifted in the other direction now. Miniorities and illegal aliens have all kinds of lawsuits going for them. We aren't even allowed to ask for anyone's legal status in this country without being sued. PC has run amok and you know it."

If a person living in the United States is not here LEGALLY, they should NOT be here!! It is as simple as that. The United States is a sovereign nation and as such HAS A RIGHT AND A DUTY TO PROTECT IT'S BORDERS FROM INVASION. No one EVER questions Mexico's right to protect their borders. Why is that? I have YET to get an answer to that question. This crap going on in our country that somehow we are doing something "evil" by enforcing OUR laws has got to stop! It is such an obvious tactic being used by pro-illegal sympathizers. Americans are not stupid. Come on!

Tamara,Welcome to my blog. Both sides discuss issues civilly here.I will answer your question. The answer is, because over the last 20+ years, our own US Government, the Admininstration and multi national corporations have welcomed them in and hired them until the number accumulated to +12M, allowing the laws to go unenforced. Our government has been COMPLICIT! In fact partnered with the elite in Mexico to allow this to happen. Now, over the last few years, the ANTI Immigration Reform groups are acting as if they had amnesia and no idea this happened and want the 12M to leave immediately. Most Americans and ALL in government know it would be impossible to mass deport 12M people plus their children (size of state of NY). That is the dilemma. How do you appease the ANTIs and gain their votes without making changes to the Administration´s multi national mindset? The answer: Ice Raids and Detention Centers. Voila. Help their Crony detention center owners. Appease the ANTIs (since they treat each Ice raid as a mini victory) and continue status quo.

Tamara said...The United States is a sovereign nation and as such HAS A RIGHT AND A DUTY TO PROTECT IT'S BORDERS FROM INVASION. No one EVER questions Mexico's right to protect their borders. Why is that?

OneAmerica is an organization that advocates for non-white interests, generally speaking, though as you point out, can occasionally support the small white immigrant population in Seattle. But consider this quote from the site:

"We ask the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, to end immigration raids that lock people up without due process; to stop inhumane detention conditions and jailing without trial; and to provide fair and efficient mechanisms to end the backlog in processing U.S. citizenship applications by September 2008."

In essence, there is no immigration law that OneAmerica would support. Not only do they NOT want ICE to enforce immigration law, they want to speed up the process granting citizenship, to boost their numbers, their power, their influence.

It would take a long time to explain all the assumptions, falsehoods, and liberal ideas promoted by OneAmerica; you have to see their actions and what they advocate in relation to the complex of ideas that constitute diversity ideology.

But look at yourself. You seem to have a strong sense of your ethnic identity and you distinguish yourself from white America. Even in the fact that you have to ask "what is white America" is indicative of the problem. You say whites cannot understand what it is like to be Hispanic. Also you are pro-amnesty, and anti-enforcement, and so on. Are your views on immigration just coincidence? No, you are liberal on immigration because of your ethnic identity.

Look at Dee. Despite, as she has said dozens of times, her family having been in the "U.S." for 200 years, she still identifies as MEXICAN American.

By contrast European immigrants can assimilate to the white majority. I know several second or third generation European immigrants. They completely blend in. They do not complain about whites not knowing what it's like to be from Eastern Europe, or about racial profiling. They are not filled with victim ideology. They do not fume about the injustices they suffer at the hands of whites. They speak English. They do not create blogs and rant about ICE raids targeting their people.

So by promoting this new racial Tower of Babel, and having no sense of respect for the traditional ethnic make up of the U.S., OneAmerica DOES, in effect, promote the destruction of America as we know it.

dee, even if it were true that our government and corporations "welcomed" these illegal aliens here, IT WAS AGAINST THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS!!! So quit trying to justify it! We live in a democracy and the majority rules and so do our laws. The American people are insisting that our immigration laws be enforced thru e-verify, raids, detention and deportation and rightly so! It is happening because it is what is supposed to happen according to our laws! No more rewards for violating our immigration laws even if our government and the corporations were partly responsible. We are a government for the people and by the people! We have spoken! Nothing else matters or counts! We want our country back and we will take it back from all three guilty parties. No more excuses, no more whining!

Hran,You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you know what? I've read and reread the statement from One America that you quote about stopping the raids and inhumane treatment, and I can't see anything wrong with it. Plus, I know many people who are white that agree with One America's goals.I also think that we as a country have blended our races, and that is not a bad thing. You constantly talk about preserving white identity and white culture, but I feel that that is too late. Even white people don't feel that is a priority, which you seem to hold really important, but the tons of people with bi-racial and multi-racial backgrounds would not see things your way, to put it mildly. But that doesn't mean they hate whites. You can't hate that which is a part of you.

Hran, I have an idea (uh-oh, look out!). This thought has been swirling in the back of my mind for sometime and has just recently come into clear focus.

I wonder if it isn't so much disparity in race which causes friction here in the U.S., but leftist ideology.

I have heard non-white like Michael Steele, Bobby Jindal, and other average Americans speak. They love this country and do not have a victim/grievance mentality. They are not leftists.

OTOH, non-whites who buy into the leftist ideology are very much inclined to embrace victimology and hostility.

There was a decision decades ago by Marxists/Socialists to switch from the "class warfare" to using race (cultural Marxism) to further their political goals. The working class whites just weren't buying into Socialism, so they felt they needed to switch tactics. Like Saul Alinsky said, "rub raw the sores of discontent."

Without Marxists/Socialist agitation, don't you think that much of the tension and conflict would lessen or vanish altogether? Most of the social engineering, revisionist history, and fomenting of racial/ethnic resentment on the part of minorities is coming from the far left. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

I am leery of blaming everything on race. For example, there are conflicts between ethnic groups of the same race. Examples would be the Croats and Serbs, the two tribes involved in the Rwanda genocide (Hutsis and Tutsis(sp) and most recently the Russians and Georgians.

Could it be that race is not the main problem, but the far left political movement?

Robles, I don't know what white people you've been talking to, but the ones I know aren't really keen about going extinct. I don't know of any people who have willingly given up their identity or culture, do you? It's not a matter of hating anyone. It's just a matter of survival instinct. Tribes have always fought to maintain their culture and survival. Why do you think that whites are any different. Do you think your people would volunteer to go extinct or go without so much as a whimper? I'm just curious as to why you would think this.

anonymous said: What kind of info did ICE have? Did they have information that the "fugitive" was a murderer, a rapist, a drug dealer?

That is true, we do not know what ICE thought about this person, what sort of falsehoods they had as records about Olga. It would be interesting to see what sort of record or past they thought she had. But then the question is, judging by their approach to her, how could they have been so far off base? Even if she had some bad stuff in her past, they still must've knew her age. It seems a little over the top they way they approached this. Unless, of course they just love to terrorize latino/hispanic undocumented immigrants. It kind of goes in line with how we've seen them treat people in the past. There seems to be an over the top approach, like when they shackled a pregnant woman to her bed for hours until right before she was to go into labor, and then quickly separating the new born baby from the mother for days. The newborn baby developed jaundice, and the womans nipples were painful and swollen. There's no need for that. And the numerous other examples too numerous to mention that show an unwarranted brutality towards people that sometimes were coaxed to come here, sometimes by american companies deceptively advertising for jobs that they could work in the US, promising that they could work and earn enough money for their starving children and families that they then reluctantly left behind in their native countries. I'm not saying all latin american undocumented workers started out this way, but we don't always see our role in this. It's like we are simultaneously putting out a help wanted ad and a welcome matt, and then pulling it out that welcome matt from under their feet once we've used and abused them.

Robles, just to clarify my curiosity as to your reasoning: most Latinos are very into their ethnic identity and culture. They seem very interested in preserving it, to the point of bringing it with them to a foreign country and holding onto it. Yet you seem to take white identity and culture so lightly as if discarding it is no real big deal. Why the double standard I wonder?

robles, it seems though that when a minority intermixes with a white, they and their offspring still only want to identity with the non-white side of themselves to retain that victim mentality and still hold grievances against whites in general. They seem to adhere to the culture of their minority side also. I don't have anything against the races mixing but only to the point where each race's identity and culture isn't totally obliterated and we all become one and the same. Pretty blah, if you ask me.

Alie said:Why do you think that whites are any different. Do you think your people would volunteer to go extinct or go without so much as a whimper?

Alie, and Patriot,I can only speak from what I've seen. Here in Seattle, I've met white people that don't feel like they have an ancestry, they're just white. They don't seem to complain much about it, but they envy someone who has more of a connection with ancestors from a "home" country. They envy that someone has an ancestry and cultural history, and sometimes that is a minority they envy, and sometimes it's another person who is white with a connection to a European white background/culture. I think there is whiteness as a race, and whites from different countries that each have distinct culture, and then there's just American white. I don't know. I do know that I don't view my ancestry as something to claim victim status. I don't know anyone that uses ancestry to claim victim status. Is that the only context with which you see minorities, Patriot? That they want to be victims to white hatred and bigotry? I know that we talk about it here, but it's so NOT like I feel victimized all the time, or even most of the time.

robles, you are willing to buy into the sob stories of Olga and the pregnant woman without really knowing the facts just because they are both Hispanic. It is typical of pro-illegal, ethnocentric Hispanics. You always demonize ICE and any law enforcement just doing their jobs and buy into the "horror" stories because you want to.

As far as our government or those corporations laying out the welcome mat for these illegals, what about personal responsibility? Most people from Latino countries are not starving and that includes Mexico. Sure their standard of living is a lot lower than ours but starving? Not for the most part!

It wasn't WE the American people who layed out any welcome mats for these people but corrupt and greedy politicians and corporations, so now you think we should just roll over and accept this travesty? Sorry, but we law abiding Americans expect our immigration laws to be enforced and we don't want another failed amensty like 1986. We need to let the world know that we will not tolerate the violation of our soveirgn borders for any reason anymore and certainly not reward it.

I have to inquire about the 'Guilt by Association' accusations towards those of us against "Illegal Aliens"?

As for the topic of this article, the woman had an 'Immigration Fugitive Arrest Warrant' against her, an Administrative (Political) Offense and by which she was presumed to have no rights according to ICE for which she proved otherwise and ICE left.

As for your woman in shackles, she was a detainee in the state of Tennessee, look up their laws, law enforcement was within their right to have her shackled pending a hearing.

I ask all people to learn the laws and which laws are being used in various cases and realize not all states laws are the same.

robles, it seems though that when a minority intermixes with a white, they and their offspring still only want to identity with the non-white side of themselves to retain that victim mentality and still hold grievances against whites in general. They seem to adhere to the culture of their minority side also. I don't have anything against the races mixing but only to the point where each race's identity and culture isn't totally obliterated and we all become one and the same. Pretty blah, if you ask me.Pretty interesting, if you ask me. How about instead of obliterating identity or culture, peacefully co-existing. Too Disneyland fairytale for you? I like the blending myself. I'm kind of a blend myself. I think it's beautiful, the human race, not blah at all. It's funny/weird that you feel people who are bi-racial or multi-racial are choosing to hold onto some minority identity for some sort of victim status. Maybe you should meet some and ask them how they feel about their race mixtures, or why they identify strongly with one or the other. If you are only exposed to minorities who are complaining about being a victim, that is sad. Victimization exists, but it's not every minority or mixed race person's focus or reality.

Patriot said: robles, you are willing to buy into the sob stories of Olga and the pregnant woman without really knowing the facts just because they are both Hispanic. It is typical of pro-illegal, ethnocentric Hispanics. You always demonize ICE and any law enforcement just doing their jobs and buy into the "horror" stories because you want to.

First of all, I'm not pro illegal or ethnocentric Hispanic. Some may argue that I'm not even Hispanic. Second of all, what are you getting at, always implying that there is some hidden story where we just don't have all the facts? I believe what I want to believe? That there are somehow facts that are witheld somehow that would change my viewpoint, or make me like ICE or at least judge them less? Where are those facts? Yes, I believe most of the stories I read. Why do you cast doubt on stories that come out as if the media is somehow withholding something?

As for your woman in shackles, she was a detainee in the state of Tennessee, look up their laws, law enforcement was within their right to have her shackled pending a hearing.

Liquidmicro, just because it's something that they could do within the law, doesn't always have to dictate that they SHOULD do it/NEED to do it. She's in a hospital about to have her baby. Somehow the sheriff's officer standing guard by her door while she's waiting for her contractions is not enough? He's standing guard, and he needs to keep her leg shackled to the bed? Does that make sense to you? Was she a violent criminal? Do you suppose the sherriff or officer thought she might risk her life and her unborn baby, or that she might threaten the staff or the officer? She was pulled over for being brown, basically. But they call it something else down there. I believe it was called something like "reckless driving." And then to separate the baby from the mother, what is the point of that? Yes, the facts of this story are not all there. I'd like to hear more from the sheriff to find out what they were thinking.

hran,Oh good gawd, what is this, gotcha journalism? I stand by my words. I have felt the vicitm from time to time. I do not play the victim card, nor do I dwell on it. I encounter it from time to time. A lifetime of walking in immigrant/latino/brown/hispanic/black/ethnic refers to being viewed as a minority during my life, being viewed as an "other." I see where you think there is contradiction, but again, I do not dwell on this, and I'm sometimes not viewed as "the other." I'm not trying to decieve anyone or present something false about my ethnicity or status as a minority. Robles is not my surname, but I do have a spanish surname. Arguably, I sometimes relate to the latino/hispanic experience in America, but sometimes I classify myself as asian/pacific islander, also, although I look latino. And to a degree, we are identified by what people assume we are. Really, just ask me anything you want.

But OK. I know what you're talking about with liberal whites in Seattle. White people are taught from youth to see themselves as having no identity. My point is, we do have an identity, and I doubt we can maintain it if we remain an ever-shrinking percentage of the population. You're right: as things stand, it doesn't look good for our long term survival. I assume you are of mixed ancestry, so it is not surprising that this doesn't bother you.

That it doesn't bother most whites either is a mystery. It is unprecedented in human history; that a people would sit by and passively watch themselves pass out of existence.

I know. Possibly some truth to that, but really, I do not dwell on being a victim. Patriot thinks minorities choose to be victims for some sort of benefit, and I suppose there are people that learn to take advantage of that status, but I simply respond to how people perceive me and can't ignore what I see, and sometimes I deal with overt discrimination and racism. I'm viewed as latino 95% of the time, which is probably why I relate to the whole latino/hispanic immigrant experience. Right now in our history, being latino/hispanic is viewed on with suspicion. I know what it feels like to be viewed as someone who doesn't belong/shouldn't be here.

robles, most white American's ancestors were from clear across the ocean on another continent and most of their ancestors are gone. The thing with many Mexican-Americans in particular, even if they don't have any relatives left in Mexico, they still identify with that country rather than America and stick up for Mexicans who are entering our coutry illegally. Most white Americans think of themselves as Americans, not Germans, Irish, etc. There is no need to keep ties to their ancestor's homeland when there is no one there that they are related to anymore and their families have been here for many generations now. In the case of Hispanics with Mexico being just below us and so many here both legally and illegally here that still do have relatives in Mexico, it is a whole different scenario. Hispanic citizens of Mexican descent in particular need to think of themselves as Americans only and stop thinking along ethnic and ancestoral lines all the time. With one foot in here and one foot in Mexico all the time. I don't think that is a good thing.

What kind of white people do you know??? Probably the far left loons in "OnePeople" and other open borders groups. What audacity to assume that white people shouldn't care if their race goes extinct or is blended into oblivion. You are complaing to Hran for "talking constantly about preserving white culture and identity, while Latinos are ALL ABOUT THEIR CULTURE AND IDENTITY! But, somehow it isn't supposed to be important to whites?? What kind of racist crap is that!?

Re-read my post, I never said the human race was blah. I said that it would be if we were all exactly the same. I just don't want the races and cultures to blend to the point where there is no uniqueness of different races and cultures left anymore. That is why I don't want eternal mixing and that is why I am for each country having its own unique identity rather than so many cultures of people co-existing in one place. History has proven that the cultures just clash anyway. We see it here and we see it over in Europe these days. Humans are humans and the utopia world you speak of will never co-exist peacefully.

If Hispanics are viewed with suspicion in this country it is only because your illegal counterparts are here by the millions and most Hispanic citizens are sticking up for them. Is it any wonder that non-hispanics in this country are P.O.'d about that? Stand shoulder to shoulder with your fellow ciitzens who are for the rule of law instead of your ethnocentric agenda and you will see a difference in the way Hispanics are viewed. But that ain't gonna happen, is it? Then lay your beds, you made them.

"It's funny/weird that you feel people who are bi-racial or multi-racial are choosing to hold onto some minority identity for some sort of victim status."

For this all we need to point to is Barak Obama, multi-racial, yet went with his 'black' side for affirmative action for schooling, 'is he black enough?', the first 'black' presidential nominee, you get where I'm going with this??

alie: most Latinos are very into their ethnic identity and culture. They seem very interested in preserving it, to the point of bringing it with them to a foreign country and holding onto it. Yet you seem to take white identity and culture so lightly as if discarding it is no real big deal. Why the double standard I wonder?

I thought about this: "discarding one's identity and culture and identity is no big deal."I think it is a big deal. There is no double standard. It is nice to hold on to one's ethnic identity and culture. Even as the ethnicities blend, families can keep their identities/cultures, albeit it would be a combo of cultures/ethnicities. This goes for all ethnicities. I do know that the model is assimilation in this country, and some whites and other ethnicities have lost the culture from their original country. Some have not. Generally the more recent the immigrant, the more of one's cultural identity, I think.I would not have a problem if someone wanted to find their roots and celebrate their cultural and ethnic idenities, whatever that is. But being that the model is assimilation, the whites who have lost their cultural history from their past country have just an ethnicity. Kind of like me. I'm a mix, but I do not have that much of a connection to an ethnic culture as much as people think when they look at me. That's cuz when they look at me, they assume that I have held on to some sort of culture. (Just because my skin is brown doesn't mean I speak spanish and like spanish or filipino or whatever music.) I'm an american, and I have assimilated into An American culture. Because of the concept of assimilation and the melting pot, I think lots of people think of American Identity and culture as not specifically having just one ethnic identity whereas you look at countries like japan and they are ethnicly japanese. Weare just American, and that encompasses Mexican American, German American, French American, etc, and sometimes a mix like me.So, I don't see a double standard. There are some people in this country that have held on to both a cultural identity as much as their ethnicity, and there are some who have lost both. Sorry for rambling to a question I sort of answered earlier, but this is an interesting topic, IMO.

What audacity to assume that white people shouldn't care if their race goes extinct or is blended into oblivion

There is no extinction. We are all part of the human race. Skin color is white. Cultural identities are nice, but as you stay longer in this country people lose touch with it. Just because some latinos and latino americans choose to cling to their culture doesn't mean they can't have loyalty to this country too. Just like German american whites can hold on to their culture and ethnic identity.

Hispanic citizens of Mexican descent in particular need to think of themselves as Americans only and stop thinking along ethnic and ancestoral lines all the time. With one foot in here and one foot in Mexico all the time. I don't think that is a good thing.

I beg to differ. I don't think it is a bad thing, whatever the culture/ethnicity.

For this all we need to point to is Barak Obama, multi-racial, yet went with his 'black' side for affirmative action for schooling, 'is he black enough?', the first 'black' presidential nominee, you get where I'm going with this??

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I've heard Barack say that he is for reforming AA to be able to help people whatever their race, which would include poor white people, and that he would not let his daughters be recipients of help because of their racial/ethnic identity, because they are not in need.

robles, I disagree with you on what the identifying culture is in this country. True it is a blend but still out of the pot came the English language and many of the white, British culture that this country has still retained. All other cultures are minority cultures. Every country has miniority cultures but that doesn't make them part of the mainstream "identifying" culture. You are trying to deny our unique blended culture that still retains its original flavor by saying there are many that are mainstream when they clearly are not.

White Americans whose ancestors came from Europe did come from different white cultures but they blended and formed a new mainstream culture in this country. Any new immigrants that come here can retain their homeland cultures all they want at home but should still assimilate into the mainstream culture and stop denying that we have one.

The point is that he used his 'blackness' for his advantage to gain, he could have used his 'whiteness' but didn't. The perception of Obama is that he is Black, not white, not mixed, but that he is black. His Grandparents raised him, an all white family in Hawaii, he grew up in the white culture, his grandmother was the head of a prominent bank, basically they had money, yet he used his 'black side' to attain AA for himself. Would that not be the victim mentality of a minority? Does that not also show that people will use their race for their own benefit?

liquidmicro said: The point is that he used his 'blackness' for his advantage to gain, he could have used his 'whiteness' but didn't...Would that not be the victim mentality of a minority? Does that not also show that people will use their race for their own benefit?

As I said, I wasn't sure what your point was. I can't speak for Obama, or all mixed race people, but especially in terms of white/black, in this country, they are mostly viewed as black. Correct me if I'm wrong. Even if he considered himself to be white/defined himself to be white, society wouldn't have. It is not being a victim on his part, but rather, he lived at a time when there was considerably more racism and discimination.

Even today, partly, we are what we are perceived to be, just as I am perceived to be Latino, although I'm not even from a Latin American country. How exactly could Barack have used his whiteness when people considered him to be black? If you were mixed, it didn't matter, blackness is what people saw. That's still how people define him (the first black pres. candidate...)Plus, he didn't come from a background of privelege, so getting help from AA wasn't an abuse of that status, and he himself has said that he would work to change AA so that rich priveleged minorities do not abuse help that they don't need through AA, and that poor whites would be able to get help. Sounds pretty fair to me.

patriot said: Every country has miniority cultures but that doesn't make them part of the mainstream "identifying" culture.

You are free to disagree. This is where we don't see things the same way. Our country is and has been on a path of making each minority culture part of the identifying culture. The melting pot. Some don't like it, but some grew up with that concept, and it's ingrained that, unlike other countries, we are a melting pot. Disagree all you want, that's what lots of people see and agree with.

patriot said: You are complaing to Hran for "talking constantly about preserving white culture and identity, while Latinos are ALL ABOUT THEIR CULTURE AND IDENTITY! But, somehow it isn't supposed to be important to whites?? What kind of racist crap is that!?

I don't recall complaining to hran about preserving white culture or identity. I don't have a problem with it, UNLESS it means destroying another cultural/ethnic identity in the US, which I see now that it does.

What I think is racial crap is the idea that somehow people have to lose their cultural identity to be in this country. That crap encourages monolingualism, which makes it very hard for people to function in a global economy. What I think is racial crap is how our traditonal white beginnings of our country are supposed to somehow form our sole collective ethnic identity today. Maybe it was at one point, but that point has long passed, and the idea of the races being together and forming a collective identity is another viewpoint that is taking hold. It's not like I'm arguing for a Latino/Hispanic Heritage as a collective identity. That would be what a latino version of hran or patriot would sound like (think MEChA or aztlan. Because Latinos can argue that they've been here and dominated at one point.) You worry about extinction, but whiteness will still be here coexisting with others. Or in a sense, whiteness as the major sole american ethnicity is a myth. Deal with it. Who is playing a victim card now? No one is suggesting that we will start to discriminate against whites or that we want some sort of ethnic, nonwhite culture or identity to be the dominant or sole identity.

"What I think is racial crap is how our traditonal white beginnings of our country are supposed to somehow form our sole collective ethnic identity today. Maybe it was at one point, but that point has long passed,..."

What caused that point to have long passed? Did someone vote to have the traditional ethnic composition of our country (white, African American, Native American) change so dramatically?

Are there any other non-white countries in the world voting to change their cultures in this manner?

I see you are using societies perceived notions vs what Obama perceived himself to be. At the time of Obama using AA to better his curricular studies, HE himself used his skin color to further himself at the cost of others.

While it is true on the outside due to the color of his skin, society may perceive him as being 'black', but that was not the way he was raised. Hawaii would be mostly White and Islander vs Black on the Island during his youth. If later in life he allowed society to define him based on the color of his skin, then I ask again, who is to blame?? And did he not use the color of his skin as a minority to further his studies through AA??

I commend you for sticking around and dialoging, its a breath of fresh air at times vs Dee being dismissive in her arguments. You bring up some good points that are not to be discounted, I think everyone here has learned a bit from one another, although it may not change anybody's perceived views it does at least open everybody's eyes to more perspectives.

robles, you must live in a cave or something then. There are many Hispanics salivating over the thought of the U.S. becoming a majority Hispanic country. Read a little and you will see what I mean. If they accomplish that feat a lot of the reason will be because of illegal immigration. Is that something that any country who has a majority race and culture of its own should welcome? I don't think so! Hispanics are the dominant racial and cultural makeup of 22 countries on the Western Hemisphere. When is enough, enough?

You obviously don't any idea what a melting pot is. It is different cultures blending and assimilating to the main one without changing the basics of it. It isn't each cultural group immerging with a sole identity of its own. That is colonization, not assimilation. There are different ethnic/racial groups that live in Mexico also but it still remain Mexican in culture and their language still remains Spanish. There is no ethnic group competing for equal status in that country. By equal, I mean becoming a true identifying factor of that country.

As I said, I have no problem with immigrants retaining their native languages and cultures at home but when out in mainstream blend in and become one of us rather than standing out.

As far as the English language goes, it is the global language for business. If someone wants to learn another language that is their choice but being forced to learn a foreign language to get a job in one's own country or accomodating every immigrant in their native tongue is a little out of line.

I am not looking for an all white country (sole as you put it). But I would like this country to remain majority white along with our dominant langauge and culture just as Mexicans in Mexico would like to remain majority mestizo of Latino culture. Nothing wrong with that. No country wants to lose their demographic makeup thru illegal immigration, that is for sure.

"That crap encourages monolingualism, which makes it very hard for people to function in a global economy."

You are confusing Industry, a global network/companies, with people. Trade agreements have been made, our companies have moved to other countries such as Mexico. Our outsourcing is there in sourcing, manufacturing has taken the place of farming in Mexico, where as in the USA its vice versa. Their farmers becoming economic refugees and in turn migrating across the northern border is by no means our fault nor our responsibility. Humans are not commodities to freely roam the planet in search of economic refuge. There is no 'Global People'. English is the language of our nation, our Government and our people, to also include the language of most industries world wide, English is the International Language of the economic world. That does not and should not stop anybody from learning more then English, but it is their choice to do so and should not be forced upon them, whereas anybody wishing to live in the USA should be required to speak, read, and write the English language. Our Government should not produce documents in any other language, since to be able to vote or obtain any State or Federal Rights or Privelages, one must be a Citizen or on the legal path to become a citizen, which requires them to speak English to become Citizens. This is not promoting monolingualism on our part, this is placing assimilation to our culture and language on to the shoulders of the foreigner wishing to become an American Citizen. We as a people and a nation have that right.

alie said: What caused that point to have long passed? Did someone vote to have the traditional ethnic composition of our country (white, African American, Native American) change so dramatically?

Are there any other non-white countries in the world voting to change their cultures in this manner?

I don't know. I'm not a sociologist, I'm guessing on this stuff and can't understand what happened. It gets confusing for me to constantly talk about white ethnic/cultural backgrounds because I took that to mean mainly from European countries, and now I see that patriot and hran are refering to a sort of ethnic white history of the US that they wanna uphold, and arguably that is something that may not be possible, but what do I know? I think our openness to accepting cultures coming here has led to more drastic changes in our makeup than say a country like Japan. Again, what do I know?

That does not and should not stop anybody from learning more than English, but it is their choice to do so and should not be forced upon them, whereas anybody wishing to live in the USA should be required to speak, read, and write the English language.

Oh, but it does stop people from learning another language. People ARE discouraged from learning other languages, because speaking other languages is looked down on in schools. The attitude is, "we are in America, dammit, We need only speak our language!" That is the message being taught in many schools on young people. Minorities who are bilingual grow up with an advantage because they can go into international business and deal with other countries that speak their second language and have a better chance of dealing with foreign countries because they speak fluently. English-only or English-as-official-language promoters don't understand that the learning of other languages makes us better to deal with the outside world (the global economy), and the outside world is more bilingual and mutilingual than us.

liquidmicro on Obama and Affirmative Action: If later in life he allowed society to define him based on the color of his skin, then I ask again, who is to blame?? And did he not use the color of his skin as a minority to further his studies through AA??

What do you mean, who is to blame?! Obama is considered black in this country even today! There is only some recognition that he is half black/half white. Back then, he's just black. He looks black, he came from a poor background and benefited from AA. So what? He needed the help. He wasn't rich. If he looked white, maybe he wouldn't have gotten help, and that's why he wants to reform AA to be able to help poor white people who are smart and can benefit from it. He realized that there are people who need it more than others and I think is fighting for the system to be a little more fair and eliminate help for people who don't need it.

You obviously don't any idea what a melting pot is. It is different cultures blending and assimilating to the main one without changing the basics of it. It isn't each cultural group immerging with a sole identity of its own. That is colonization, not assimilation. There are different ethnic/racial groups that live in Mexico also but it still remain Mexican in culture and their language still remains Spanish. There is no ethnic group competing for equal status in that country. By equal, I mean becoming a true identifying factor of that country.

You are right Patriot. I used the term wrong. I used the term, cuz that's what I remember in grade school, but I didn't like social studies! Perhaps I just went with an erroneous word choice. How about multiculturalism? I honestly did not have time to wikipedia the differences. Again, I'm not a sociologist, but somewhere in what little education I had, I was taught that America accepted immigrants and that people can live together respecting everyone for their differences. Again, very disneyland, but I bought it/continue to buy it. I'm not saying there aren't kinks in the road, but I don't see Latino/Hispanic taking over, I see harmony in the future. I don't think the ethnic identity of a country is stagnant, but changes over time, and this is perhaps going to be another change since ancient times.

liquid said: "...he grew up in the white culture, his grandmother was the head of a prominent bank, basically they had money, yet he used his 'black side' to attain AA for himself. Would that not be the victim mentality of a minority? Does that not also show that people will use their race for their own benefit?

Yeah, but people saw him as black, and he was poor,and because people saw him as black, it didn't matter that he was also part white. He couldn't show a I'm-half-white-so-treat-me-like-white card. He was exactly the person who benefited and should've benefited from AA. I think Obama acknowleges that times have changed, and today it is also about socio-economic status, which I think by proposing to change AA, addresses the plight of poor people who need help regardless of race.

Foreign languages are taught in our school systems, Official English would not change that. The 'Global Economy' speaks English as its global language. A foreign language may help someone in there career, however it should not be made mandatory for an American Citizen to learn. You are wanting to enforce it upon our citizens, when it is their own choices to delve into a career which may require a foreign language.

Obama did not grow up poor. His Grandparents, who raised him, Grandma was the head of a major bank in Hawaii. Do your research instead of listening to Talking points of the Dems and the pundits rooting for Obama. A 'Top Private School' as a child, paid for by Grandparents, he didn't grow up in a poor environment.

HONOLULU — He was known as Barry Obama, and with his dark complexion and mini-Afro, he was one of the few blacks at the privileged Hawaiian school overlooking the Pacific.

Yet that hardly made him stand out.

Diversity was the norm at the Punahou School, one of the state's top private schools. The 3,600 students came from a wide variety of backgrounds, with a blend of Polynesian, Asian, European and other cultures. Everybody in Hawaii is a minority.

At Punahou, Barack Obama was known primarily for his appealing personality, his honesty and his aggressive play on the basketball court.

"It was a good melting pot. There were people from all different races," said Eric Smith, a friend and classmate of Obama's in the 1970s. "Everyone seemed to meld together."

As he pursues the presidency, the chapters of Obama's unfamiliar biography are drawing greater scrutiny. The Democratic senator from Illinois was born in Honolulu 45 years ago and lived in one the country's most diverse metropolitan areas for the better part of 18 years. He spent four childhood years in Indonesia.

In his 1995 memoir, "Dreams From My Father," Obama recalls experiencing some discrimination growing up in the islands, such as when other kids laughed at his name. He also wrote about his internal struggles as black friends would accuse all white people of mistreating others _ harsh words as Obama was being raised by his white mother and grandparents.

"I tried to raise myself to be a black man in America, and beyond the given of my appearance, no one around me seemed to know exactly what that meant," he wrote.

Robles, regarding the language: I already have my ancestral language. I do not want Spanish shoved down my throat because it is the language of millions upon millions of illegals who have barged into this country.

Our government has not enforced immigration law for 40 years. Therefore, people have been coming illegally into this country. Some come in legally on a visa which they overstay; the majority came from South of the border. Once here, they produced children who gained automatic citizenship at birth due to an abuse of the 14th amendment.

In 1986, all of these illegals were granted amnesty. This encouraged yet another flood of illegals into this country with the resulting children being born.

This is partly, but not wholly, the reason why our language and culture is undergoing such a drastic change. No other country or people would put up with this. Even the European countries have an official language and are insisting that immigrants to their countries learn the language of the host country.

Individuals who are bilingual are good; bilingual societies are rife with conflict and tension.

Most of the "immigrants" learn 2nd languages because their first language is Spanish which is spoken at home; then they go to school and are taught English at taxpayer expense. Since they live in an English-dominated society, they have ample opportunity to practice their English and keep up their Spanish within their families.

Most English-speaking Americans, including African-Americans, do not have the advantage of being raised in a foreign language-speaking family. English is their firt language and then they go to school. Even if they take up a second language in school, if they do not have opportuntiy to practice it and keep it up, it is lost. So they are at a natural disadvantage.

Again, I agree that it is good for one to learn a second language. But I am a firm believer that they should be able to choose the language they would like to learn--maybe their ancestral language--and not have Spanish (or any other language) forced upon them.

The reason so many people know English, as Liquid pointed out, is that it is the international language of commerce.

alie said: I agree that it is good for one to learn a second language. But I am a firm believer that they should be able to choose the language they would like to learn--maybe their ancestral language--and not have Spanish (or any other language) forced upon them.

Then we are in agreement then. I never said I was for mandatory learning of spanish. I do not want people to be forced to learn a second language either. I am for immigrants to learn English and agree that it should be a requirement. What I am against is people who discourage young people from speaking their native language, when there is room for both languages and studies show that the younger the person the easier it is to learn and speak several languages. Right now there are some schools that discourage students from speaking their own language thinking it might interfere with learning english even though they already are bilingual and can learn english easily. These same people also think that english should be declared the official language, even though it already is widely used. I think for certain things, such as emergency services, some businesses, some services, what's the problem with having signs in spanish if there are a lot of people who speak spanish, too. They would still learn english but be able to get served in spanish. some people are tired of seeing other languages posted up for immigrants and foreigners, as if that somehow makes life hard for them, when in fact it makes it easier for them.

liquidmicro,It's true, I think I did know about his getting help at some point from his grandmother. But where do you think it is unfair exactly? I think he advanced because of his own merits and not because he used his blackness.

The discussion was about minorities using their identity for victim status, I see it from the perspective of Obama using his 'Blackness' as an oppressed minority vs his grandparents being able to support him by paying for the most prestigious private school in Hawaii. He may have not needed AA if he had the grades for scholarships, etc. to attend college. From what we know he attended Occidental College in Los Angeles for two years before transferring to Columbia in 1981. The move receives only a mention in Mr. Obama's 1995 memoir, "Dreams from My Father," which instead devotes that chapter to his impressions of race and class struggles in New York.

An article in a Columbia University publication, Columbia College Today, reported that Mr. Obama has portrayed Columbia as a period of buckling down following a troubled adolescence. He did not socialize much, he has said, instead spending a lot of time in the library, "like a monk." He has also stated that he was involved to some extent with the Black Students Organization.

Federal law limits the information that Columbia can release about Mr. Obama's time there. A spokesman for the university, Brian Connolly, confirmed that Mr. Obama spent two years at Columbia College and graduated in 1983 with a major in political science. He did not receive honors, Mr. Connolly said, though specific information on his grades is sealed. A program from the 1983 graduation ceremony lists him as a graduate.

To me this suggests he was not much of a scholastic achiever in private schools in Hawaii or in Occidental or for that matter Columbia U.

Not all minorities will or have used their identity to achieve a status, but from an outside perspective, AA seems to give them an advantage when maybe they shouldn't be given the opportunity until they themselves desire to truly excel. Obama doesn't seem to have excelled until he reached Harvard, maybe it has to do with reaching maturity for people.

"But where do you think it is unfair exactly?" When his grades would not further him and AA was the only option he had to further himself, even though it doesn't look to me that he was ready (mature enough) to proceed. He filled a position that may have been better suited for someone with better grades or that the school may not have had to achieve a quota of certain races.

robles, multiculterism means having two or more cultures in a county on equal footing. That has never been the case in this country. We have people of minority cultures living among our mainstream culture. That isn't being multiculture in identity. I would like it to remain so and certainly not have it change through illegal immigration.

I guess my problem is that it is only white countries who are experiencing this dramatic demographic shift and assault on their traditional cultures. I wonder what you would say about the demographic changes occurring in Europe right now? The Europeans ARE indigenous to Europe, so you can't hide behind that old argument.

People like you would be screaming bloody murder if foreign forces invaded your native country changing your culture, religion, language, etc. And yet if WE object to it, we are "nativists, racists, xenophobes," and a whole bunch of other nasty things!

What irks me is that every single one of these people who come here come from countries where their core culture is 100% intact! You say that you don't think that people should have to drop their culture when they come here. Well, who forced them to come? Did anyone put a gun up to their head? NO! So basically what they want is to maintain their cultures in their homelands, and maintain their culture here. And neither the U.S., Canada, Australia, or Europe are allowed to insist that those immigrating into THEIR countries assimilate which leads to the dilution of all of OUR cultures! Nice. Where do WE get to maintain a culture? Are white countries the only countries which are to subordinate their culture to others while all of those other cultures remain 100% intact in their respective countries?? What's wrong with that picture?

How about this: how about millions of Chinese and Arabs immigrate into Mexico and keep their native culture. Bye-bye Mestizo nation. When you think of Mexico, you will no longer think of Mariachi bands or Aztec decor. Then let's have millions upon millions of Europeans move into the Middle East and bring their culture and language with them. Instead of having a unifying Muslim faith and culture, they will have...well, whatever the Euros bring with them. Then we'll just have about 50 million people from everywhere move into China. Remember the China we all saw at the olympics with their ancient identifying Chinese culture? Gone.

NOW, after ALL THIS IS ACCOMPLISHED, then I will feel as though things are a little more evened out. And in truth, they will be.

But somehow, I don't think the people in any of these countries will be down with that plan.

liquidmicro, thanks for the recap on the discussion. I can kind of see now what you mean, but I don't agree. I don't think one can really come to that conclusion about Obama. It's difficult for me to see Obama using his blackness as victim status. I just don't see it. I also don't think we have the info to judge whether he was abusing AA or shouldn't have been provided the opps that he had or that someone else may have been more deserving. Plus, if a black person is given an opp through AA, I don't think it means that they then have to excell beyond belief. my two cents on that. Thanks for the time.

Patriot,I thought that was what multiculturalism meant. I actually think it's something desirable, not a bad thing, IMO. But consider my background, sort of mixed. That's what two bi-racial parents would want their kids to have.

I am getting more of a sense of your sentiments and feelings behind your statements, yet I can't seem to agree or feel the same way about a lot of the things you say. such as: People like you would be screaming bloody murder if foreign forces invaded your native country changing your culture, religion, language, etc. And yet if WE object to it, we are "nativists, racists, xenophobes," and a whole bunch of other nasty things!

I can see and have heard people call this an invasion, (a brown invasion or mexican invasion, to be exact) and I just can't see it that way. I think it has to do with seeing the role our government has played, a willingness to have turned a blind eye for a long long time, a willingness to ignore a problem, and meanwhile to utilize and abuse undocumented people for cheap labor and then scapegoating them. It's not an invasion because to some extent we have welcomed it and benefited from it.

If they were coming in like an army and overtaking the government and demanding changes in everything, religion, language, culture, than yes, that would be an invasion. I see this as something the US knew about and even welcomed for years, because there was something to gain, and now there is something to gain by having a scapegoat. And having a scapegoat without really fixing the problem so that the scapegoat will be here for a long time and people can conveniently blame them for why our country isn't doing so good right now or later on. and it's hard to see that as an invasion.

Why wouldn't a multicultural model for the US work for you, and why is that not how you see the minorities that exist now?

"I can see and have heard people call this an invasion, (a brown invasion or mexican invasion, to be exact) and I just can't see it that way. I think it has to do with seeing the role our government has played, a willingness to have turned a blind eye for a long long time, a willingness to ignore a problem, and meanwhile to utilize and abuse undocumented people for cheap labor and then scapegoating them. It's not an invasion because to some extent we have welcomed it and benefited from it."

My reply:

You are pulling the race card robles, by saying we use the term "brown invasion". It is true that most illegals are Mexicans but calling attention to skin color is pulling the race card IMO. Dee does it all the time. Skin color has nothing to do with it.

We all know that our government and greedy corporations played a role in why they are here but IT WAS AGAINST THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!! As I told dee, quit trying to justify their presence here with that. It is an unarmed invasion and no, your regular hard working American DID NOT WELCOME THEM HERE and we do not benefit from their presence here, only the greedy employers do.

Quote robles:

"If they were coming in like an army and overtaking the government and demanding changes in everything, religion, language, culture, than yes, that would be an invasion. I see this as something the US knew about and even welcomed for years, because there was something to gain, and now there is something to gain by having a scapegoat. And having a scapegoat without really fixing the problem so that the scapegoat will be here for a long time and people can conveniently blame them for why our country isn't doing so good right now or later on. and it's hard to see that as an invasion."

My reply:

Ah, but they and their legal counerparts ARE salivating over becoming the majority here so that they can gain political power in this country. Our government IS accomodating them in their language and so are businesses. It is creating a situation where we have to learn Spanish to get a job in our own country. Yes, it is creating a cultural change in our country. Are you telling me that if they do become the majority that we are going to remain an anglo country culturally rather than a Hispanic one? Surely even you aren't that stupid!

As far as welcoming them, see my reply about that in my prior paragraph. No, WE (your regular everyday American) DID NOT welcome them! They came against OUR will.

We aren't using them as scapegoats for ALL of this country's ills. But they certainly played a role in it. An invasion can be armed or unarmed. It just means entering someone's home or personal property without the owner's permission. Technically WE the regular American citizen are the owners of this country. "For the people and by the people". They entered without OUR permission in violation of OUR country's laws.

Quote robles:

"Why wouldn't a multicultural model for the US work for you, and why is that not how you see the minorities that exist now?"

My reply:

I have already explained it to you over and over in other posts. We don't want to be multi-cultural per se (one or more cultures competing for dominance against ours). We want to retain our own identity with a dominant culture of our own. Having one or more minority cultures living among us is acceptable but for millions of people to come here, especially illegally, and seek to change the identity of this country to that of their culture or to even expect us to become a bi-cultural country is not acceptable to most white/black Americans. Mexico wouldn't stand for it neither would China, Japan and most other countries with a unique identity, so why should we?

Robles, you didn't ask me, but allow me to explain my position on multiculturalism vs. assimilation.

Again, you have to go back to what multiculturalism IS and what it IS NOT.

WHAT IT IS: Modern day "tribalism," with each individual culture existing with its own set of values, mores, cultural traits. Remember that culture is much more than superficial characteristics such as food, dress, and music.

WHAT IT IS NOT: the "blending" of various cultures into one unifying dominant culture, the "melting pot" which has served our country well for 200 years or so.

Why would I think that multiculturalism would not work? Because there is not an example of a truly multicultural nation anywhere in the world without conflict, strife, or outright genocide.

Even in Canada where you have a stable economy and government, there is constant tension between the French Canadian ethnic group and the Anglo Canadians. There is even a significant separatist movement in Quebec.

And that is a relatively mild manifestation of the problems which arise from multiculturalism.

A more extreme example of what happens in multicultural societies is the Balkans (the Serbs, Croats, and Albanians), Rwanda, or Iraq with its Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis--outright violence and genocide.

Anytime you have two or more ethnic groups relatively equal in numbers, you are going to have a struggle for economic and political power. It is human nature. It's not a matter of if the individual people can relate positively to each other on a personal level. It is what happens between GROUPS in relation to political, cultural, and economic power and influence. To think otherwise is naive and like I said, there is no evidence to the contrary anywhere in the world.

Some of the negative manifestations of multiculturalism are subtle and some very overt and violent.

"I also don't think we have the info to judge whether he was abusing AA or shouldn't have been provided the opps that he had or that someone else may have been more deserving."

I never said he abused AA, what I said was he took advantage of it when maybe he didn't need or deserve it. His grades were not all that good coming out of High School, Occidental and Columbia, he didn't have the desire at the time to be educated, i.e. "drugs and alcohol and not graduating with 'honors'. Someone else may have been better deserving with much better grades who could have filed the spot he took.

Dees earlier story from work would have been a better system to use for colleges, entrance based on performance and points, not a need for so many of each race as by AA. This may be, again, where we see things from the half full/half empty glass.

Now, about multi-culturalism, you have it confused with diversity. We are a Diverse nation with but one culture, however that culture does get added to by the diverse peoples that contribute, but it does not change it from its core. Pat and Alie explain it quite well.

Here's a new direction in regards to "Illegal Immigrants":

"I think it has to do with seeing the role our government has played, a willingness to have turned a blind eye for a long long time,"

Our Government implemented the I-9 form to battle forged/fake/stolen documents issued by "Illegal Immigrants" to make it harder if not impossible for them to obtain jobs here. Our Government was under the impression it was working until a few years ago when "Illegal Immigration" was found to be much larger in numbers than what they could have imagined. So in turn they tightened up on the I-9 fewer documents now accepted and so on, the American Public to awareness during the marches of 1996.

You use again that we as citizens are 'Guilty by Association' to allowing and benefiting from the "Illegal Immigrants" labor for cheap prices. How could that be when the American Public was unaware of what was going on?? The employers used loop holes in the laws to higher "Illegal Immigrants" as slave labor, knowing the documents they were providing were fake, but they looked real and due to anti-discrimination laws the employers were justified. So I ask, how then could the Public knowingly be held liable as well?? There is no 'Guilt by Association' on the Public's side.

patriot,"Brown Invasion." "Mexican Invasion." "Invasion." "Invasion with or without arms." "They came here against the will of the american people."

Calm down. I don't get why you are getting all huffy. I simply have repeated what I heard some Antis say about it being a mexican or brown invasion. No race card used for repeating something. All I'm saying is that someone left the gate open, and put up help wanted signs and payed double than what the average worker was making there. Some of us allowed it. The government turned a blind eye on it. To call it an invasion is to imply that we collectively fought agianst it, and that is simply not true. Some of us hired them as gardners, or haulers when we couldn't stand our junk and waste. Some of us needed them for our new building contruction. Who needed workers right away after Katrina? Do you see what I'm saying? Not an invasion. Part of us including the government, continues to welcome them in.

Look, patriot, this is just a difference between what you see as a threat to culture in the US, and I just see it as what is happening. People blending. People living side by side. If you want to say this creates chaos, then so be it. It's already here. Even If our country was to successfully remove all the illegal immigrants, you'd still have to face all the legal immgrants and citizens, and the fact that you don't like all the spanish speakers and spanish culture that you see all around you. And you'd want somehow to speed up the assimilation cuz this just doesn't look like your concept of what america should be. Again, it's just a difference in how you and I see america.

You just don't get it do you robles, no matter how many times it is explained to you. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? If I appear huffy it is because myself and others in here have explained it all to you over and over but you still keep coming back with the same arguments. Just because you hear "brown invasion" from "some" people, doesn't mean every American refers to skin color when objecting to illegal immigration. Calling it a Mexican invasion however would be close to the facts. It IS mostly Mexicans that are here illegally. Facts are not racist statements.

Again those "some" who left the gate open is our goverment, it wasn't your regular American. They had to no right to leave the gate open. They were supposed to protect Americans from invasion. "Some" regular Americans may have hired these illegals but not the majority! In many cases those who did hire them didn't know they were here illegally in this country. There are some pretty authentic looking documents out there. Stop justifying an illegal invasion of our country because of our corrupt government, "some" greedy employers and "some" regular Americans who hired them. THEY DO NOT THE REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE MAJORITY AND OUR LAWS RULE!!! What part of that don't you get? It IS an invasion against the will of the MAJORITY of Americans.

Geez, you really are thick, arent't you? I have explained what retaining our culture means to Americans and so has liquidmicro, hran and alie yet you act like we have no valid points and that you just don't get it. I don't how much plainer the four of us can make it for you.

We haven't said that we don't like Hispanics or even the Spanish language in this country. READ MY LIPS!! WE JUST DON'T WISH TO BECOME A HISPANIC COUNTRY. IT IS NOT OUR NATURAL CULTURE AND WE CERTAINLY DON'T WANT IT HAPPENING DUE TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. The only way to prevent that from happening is to deport illegal aliens, secure our borders and in the future make sure that all ethnic groups have a shot at coming here in controlled numbers rather than the majority being from mostly one ethnic group so that their culture doesn't replace or dilute ours. What is so hard for you to understand about that?

I don't "see" our country in a certain way, IT IS WHAT IT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. That is like you stating that because Mexicans see their country as culturally being Latino/Hispanic that it makes them screwed up in the head or something. IT IS JUST A FACT. YOU CAN'T CHANGE WHAT ARE FACTS!! Mexicans no more want to lose their culturall identity in their country especially through an illegal invasion any more than we do? God, you you get it now?

It is very clear to me that Mexico has declared war on America. The war is peaceful, so far, but a war nonetheless. The Mexican government encourages and aids and abets their poor to come to our country. That is demographic warfare in my opinion.

While I sympathize with the poor and oppressed throughout the entire world, I sympathize FIRST AND FOREMOST with the poor and oppressed in MY country, the United States of America. We can no longer continue to allow people into our country who have no right to be here and be FORCED to pay for them. The U.S. government has given Americans no choice in this treachery.

Robles, you said"Look, patriot, this is just a difference between what you see as a threat to culture in the US, and I just see it as what is happening. People blending. People living side by side.

The people who have invaded our country, the vast majority of which are Mexican, Guatamalen and Salvadoran, are not here to assimilate. Come on Robles, they could care less about assimilation, especially the Mexicans. They have no interest in learning the language of America or being part of our culture. They have made that PAINFULLY clear with their marches and protests where they burned the sacred flag of our country, dragged it on the ground and stomped on it. These people HATE us and we must do everything within our power to stop them.

Right, starting with agriculture, but moving to all forms of low-skilled manual labor; even now in high-skilled jobs. The guiding principle here is the desire for cheap labor.

The problem is, there is no end in sight. What happens to the second or third generation of immigrants? Either they will keep doing the low-skill, low-paying work, and remain a permanent underclass, or they will no longer want to do the work and we will need yet another generation of desperate poor people from the third world to replenish our supply.

Since the percentage of whites has dropped from around 85% to 66% since 1960, and this process is only accelerating, people in my ethnic group see that in a few decades, we will be in the minority, and the country will be quite overpopulated.

The ethnic transformation of the U.S. combined with the anti-white rhetoric we see everyday, does not bode well for white people in America.

Alie, thanks for your comments. I did not mean to skip over you, just can't always respond to everyone here. You seem to not get all huffy when I disagree, whereas some seem to be pissed just that I don't see eye to eye to them for not using the term invasion. I disagree that you think we shouldn't be a multicultural nation. Just throwing out bad examples isn't enough of an indication that only bad can come from it.I have wikied melting pot and found a section that talks of a compromise between assimilationists and multiculturalists, which I thought sounded like common sense to me Here's the link: If you do not agree with mutliculturalism as a goal for this country, what about a compromise between assimilation and multiculturalism?

liquidmicro said: Government was under the impression it was working until a few years ago when "Illegal Immigration" was found to be much larger in numbers than what they could have imagined.

The government shifted it's priorities on focusing on this, but they knew the steady influx of undocumented immigrants for a long long time; this isn't new. What's new is our focus on this as a new problem that is getting out of control.

liquid said: "How could that be when the American Public was unaware of what was going on?? The employers used loop holes in the laws to higher "Illegal Immigrants" as slave labor, knowing the documents they were providing were fake, but they looked real and due to anti-discrimination laws the employers were justified. So I ask, how then could the Public knowingly be held liable as well?? There is no 'Guilt by Association' on the Public's side."

Are not employers part of the american public? People know full well what is going on. They lived with it. I knew an undocumented immigrant woman who tried to get a job at a fast food restaurant, wrote down a faulty SSN on her application, and the next day when she called the restaurant to ask about whether she got the job, she was told BY A FUTURE COWORKER that they would hire her, but first they wanted her to supply another SSN because the one she gave them didn't work! 'm not saying this is right, but people knew. People know and don't care. It was been this way for a long long time. It bothers me too. That's not right. But I'm for reforming the system in a humane way. Patriot, you think I'm down playing the seriousness of the crime; I argue that we all can be a little more humane with these people, after all, they aren't committing murder.

I didn't agree with use of the term invasion (several comments back) to describe illegal immigration, and this is where this discussion stems from; I disagree with that term because I feel that it is too harsh and makes it sound like no one knew about it happening. The difference is many knew, but it wasn't a focus on the news like it is now. To continue to argue over word use seems odd to me here. I disagree, you guys agree with each other that it was, and is, an invasion. Are you hoping I will change my mind? Is that why you log in here and comment here? It might help you get less huffy if you don't feel like you have to change my mind. I've read and understand what you guys are saying/writing here, so don't think that if I don't agree with you, I'm discounting your opinions.

patriot said: THEY DO NOT THE REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE MAJORITY AND OUR LAWS RULE!!! What part of that don't you get? It IS an invasion against the will of the MAJORITY of Americans.

Geez, you really are thick, arent't you? I have explained what retaining our culture means to Americans and so has liquidmicro, hran and alie yet you act like we have no valid points and that you just don't get it. I don't how much plainer the four of us can make it for you.

We haven't said that we don't like Hispanics or even the Spanish language in this country. READ MY LIPS!! WE JUST DON'T WISH TO BECOME A HISPANIC COUNTRY. IT IS NOT OUR NATURAL CULTURE AND WE CERTAINLY DON'T WANT IT HAPPENING DUE TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. The only way to prevent that from happening is to deport illegal aliens, secure our borders and in the future make sure that all ethnic groups have a shot at coming here in controlled numbers rather than the majority being from mostly one ethnic group so that their culture doesn't replace or dilute ours. What is so hard for you to understand about that?

First off, I don't think Dee has a rule against shouting here, but there is no need to use excessive CAPS, which amount to SHOUTING. I would think you would know that. I understand you think I'm dense and have reading comprehension problems, but if that's the case, ALL CAPS would be quite useless, don't you think? That's like shouting to a deaf person.

Secondly, I never discounted your points, I just don't agree with them.

Thirdly, you can say that you think like a majority of Americans. I'm one American that doesn't think like you. There are many Americans like me. I'm not the one shouting at you. I understand what you are saying, were you expecting more from me?

Mexicans, they wonder why we don't like them. The most profoundly self-centered, selfish, self-absorbed people in the world. People to whom WE owe everything to. It's all about Mexicans and what we owe them, what they can get from us, how they can abuse and use us. Yeah, we don't like you and we have good reason not to.

Tamara, I think it's reasonable to want to help one's people in one's country first. I think to say that you are sympathetic to the poor and the oppressed throughout the world means that you would not excuse your government's cruel and inhumane behavior on poor people whose only crime is to want to find a better life. I do not think the marches are solely undocumented immigrants. I marched the last three years for worker and immigrants rights, and while I don't agree with burning the flag, I do think it's important to voice your concerns and marching or protesting is one way to affect change. I think a majority marching are their advocates and friends and family. To think that the marchers hate us citizens is false, because many of them ARE citizens. Protesting is part of the american way. Many of them just want to be treated fairly and work hard in this country without taking more than they contribute. I think it's also unfair to say mostly the mexicans are the ones who don't want to assimilate. It's not a crime to speak your own language here. Sometimes people think that once you become a legal citizen, you should not in speak your native tongue, but that doesn't always disappear.

hran said: Right, starting with agriculture, but moving to all forms of low-skilled manual labor; even now in high-skilled jobs. The guiding principle here is the desire for cheap labor.

The problem is, there is no end in sight. What happens to the second or third generation of immigrants? Either they will keep doing the low-skill, low-paying work, and remain a permanent underclass, or they will no longer want to do the work and we will need yet another generation of desperate poor people from the third world to replenish our supply. Or since they are citizens by birth they will excell in school and be contributing members of society.Second and Third generation immigrants have a good chance of being fully contributing assimilated members of US society. What about all the toddlers that came here who are almost fully assimilated by the time they reach adulthood, except they are not documented? What about the much hated anchor babies that people want to deny citizenship to? To me, that just cuts down their chances even more of becoming fully assimilated americans, almost guaranteeing their underclass status with less contribution to society. I understand somewhat the resentment people feel for them to sneak in here, but if you hate an underclass of people in low wage jobs, why would you want to deny citizenship to the babies of illegals, when clearly the 14th amendment gives them birthright citizenship, thus creating more people whose charcteristics you can't stand? It's like shooting yourself in the foot.What about legal immigrants working in microsoft, many of whom are from India? Are they a threat to white culture? You probably think that they should be limited, but how can they, when we haven't enough educated high skilled tech workers that are citizens?

Hran,Sorry. You are wrong.Just this week, Chris Matthews said, "I´m Irish Catholic. So are you." His guest nodded. Every week on the Sopranos, Tony says, "I´m Italian."Jewish people always say they are Jewish.I could go on and on.

Hran said...Look at Dee. Despite, as she has said dozens of times, her family having been in the "U.S." for 200 years, she still identifies as MEXICAN American.

"What about legal immigrants working in microsoft, many of whom are from India? Are they a threat to white culture? You probably think that they should be limited, but how can they, when we haven't enough educated high skilled tech workers that are citizens?"

I see yo have bought into the Chamber of Commerce and Tech lies. You see it as we need the workers and we don't have enough.

H-1B visa outsourcing abuse under investigation by US Senate

U.S. scientific and technical industries, especially the IT sector, have been lobbying hard to have the quotas increased for several years now. Notably, highly visible CEO's like Bill Gates of Microsoft and Larry Ellison of Oracle have personally made appearances before the U.S. Congress, virtually demanding that the caps be raised.

These industry leaders have regularly argued that there were thousands of unfilled jobs in the United States that require people with education and skills from around the world to keep American businesses competitive and innovative. They claim that the quotas are too low and that tens of thousands of qualified people were being kept out of the United States, and that this was hurting American businesses.

Some countries have been lobbying the U.S government to raise the cap, too. In particular, the Indian government has been pressuring George Bush to introduce immigration reform measures that would favor Indian nationals attempting to work in the U.S.

Fallout

After the stunning demand for the H-1B visa this year, people began to investigate the problem. Congress and the White House are trying to craft major immigration reform this year, and an understanding of the situation is critical.

What has been noticed is that between 70% and 80% of the H-1B visas granted in 2006 went to India-based outsourcing firms. Employees of these firms were not being hired to work for U.S. businesses but, rather, to effectively study how U.S. businesses operate and to determine their needs and methods.

Then, using their newly forged contacts in U.S. industries, these firms then outsource the work back to India-based industries. Many of these people only use their coveted H-1B for two to four years, rather than the full six-year limit, causing resentment among people who would wish to have an H-1B as a means to leverage permanent immigration to the U.S.

While technically not illegal, this practice violates the intent of the H-1B program. The H1B visa program was launched in 1990 to allow foreign scientists, engineers and technologists to be employed for up to six years in the U.S., at the end of which they must obtain permanent residency or return home. It is also possible for the sponsoring company to petition for H-1B extensions which are exempt from the caps.

Senate Assistant Majority Leader Richard Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, and Sen. Charles Grassley, an Iowa Republican, said in letters to the companies that they had received reports of fraud and abuse of the H-1B visa program.

At the same time, they have introduced measures in the U.S. Senate targeted at the H-1B and the L-1 visas to ensure that the programs perform their intended function - to allow foreign born professionals to bring their skills into the U.S. when those skills cannot be found domestically.

Reaction

"More and more it appears that companies are using H-1B visas to displace qualified, American workers," Grassley said in a statement.

The senators said some visas were being used to train foreign workers in the United States to perform jobs that were later transferred to India and other countries. "The reality is that too many H-1B visas are being used to facilitate the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries," Durbin said.

They asked the companies for information on the number of visas they hold, wages, efforts to recruit qualified American workers, outsourcing of jobs to other countries and whether any U.S. workers have had their responsibilities outsourced.

In April, a number of measures were proposed for upcoming immigration reform efforts in the Congress. The U.S. is trying to provide a bill by the end of May, with the hopes of passing significant reform before the end of this summer. Among those measures are proposals to greatly increase proof of efforts by companies to find U.S. citizens and residents to fill positions before they may be offered to foreign nationals.

The senators have introduced legislation aimed at protecting U.S. workers and limiting the ability of companies to use the visas to train workers with the aim of shifting jobs overseas. Aides said the measure would be offered as an amendment to comprehensive immigration legislation that the Senate could take up as early as this week.

"As we move closer to the debate on an immigration bill, I continue to hear how people want to increase the number of H1B visas that are available to companies. Considering the high amount of fraud and abuse in the visa program, we need to take a good, hard look at the employers who are using H1B visas and how they are using them," Grassley said in a statement.

"Supporters claim the goal of the H1B program is to help the American economy by allowing companies to hire needed foreign workers. The reality is that too many H1B visas are being used to facilitate the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries," Durbin said.

"We have to look at the system that generates these visas and the way they are used. This legislation will help protect American workers first by stopping H-1Bs from being exploited and used as outsourcing visas."

As numbers rise, labor advocates caution that wherever the H-2A program has been used, they have found cases of mismanagement and abuse and workers rarely briefed on rights or how to exercise them.

"There's effectively no oversight once H-2A workers enter the country. These guys are stuck out in the boonies and nobody cares about them," said Mark Schacht, deputy director of the California Rural Legal Assistance Foundation.

The foundation and the separate California Rural Legal Assistance Inc. filed a lawsuit Aug. 21 on behalf of two dozen Colima workers who say the Salvador Gonzalez Farm Labor Contractor company violated its contract with them.

The H-2A program is designed to fill domestic labor shortages on farms. State employment agencies certify an employer tried to hire U.S. workers before the U.S. Labor Department clears the way for H-2A workers to come in for up to 10 months.

To ensure U.S. workers' wages are not depressed, H-2A workers in California must be paid at least $9.72 an hour. Their employer must provide free housing that has passed state inspection and offer meals that cost workers no more than $9.52 a day.

H-2A workers are strictly tied to their visa sponsor, barred from working for anyone else. Advocates say the rule indentures them and makes them likely to put up with violations of contracts.

Employers say H-2A rules include safeguards. Before workers return home, for example, employers must pay them three-quarters of what pay was promised during a contract, even if the laborers were not given work the entire time.

Alie,You and many ANTIs tend to debate using Equivocation techniques. Dont put words in his mouth. READ and interpret what Robles says. He is very, very clear and succinct.

Alie said... Robles, just to clarify my curiosity as to your reasoning: most Latinos are very into their ethnic identity and culture. They seem very interested in preserving it, to the point of bringing it with them to a foreign country and holding onto it. Yet you seem to take white identity and culture so lightly as if discarding it is no real big deal. Why the double standard I wonder?

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A PRO Forum where people, both PRO and ANTI, can discuss American Immigration Issues and Political Issues civilly, freely and safely thereby reducing the hate, anger and misunderstandings currently inherent in most of these discussions.

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This Blog promotes the discussion of opinions of the Blog Owner and commenters who wish to participate in the discussion about Immigration Issues and Political Issues.

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About Me

Hello. My name is Dee. I live in Texas. I am an American. My ethnicity is Hispanic. Many would call me Mexican or Mexican American. Some call me a female, PRO-Immigration Reform - Ann Coulter.
My parents, their parents and theirs were all born in the USA.
My husband and I have been happily married for over 20 years. My husband is a big, Irish-American. We have two grown sons. We are happy and my family is doing well. I have been employed as a mid level manager at a very large, well known corporation for over 25 years, now recently retired.
In May, 2006, after the Immigration Marches, I started seeing the cable news channels talking very negatively about illegal immigration. I found many internet sites were talking negatively about legal and illegal immigration issues as well.
Since I do research on the job, I started conducting Immigration research on the web. I joined several Immigration websites and I researched others. I´ve learned so much about Immigration issues over the last year.
What you don´t see on the internet is the Mexican American perspective.
I am here to share my views with you.