Thursday, August 09, 2012

Ecumenism and Catholic Social Teaching and Their Relationship to True Catholic Doctrine: Some Reflections

We can amiably discuss differences, but we also should come together where we have common ground, in order to be light and hope to the dying civilization all around us.

The Church is ecumenical while remaining dogmatic. Nothing has changed: only the willingness to see common ground where it exists.

What is it about ecumenism that makes people go ballistic and become irrational? It's as if there is no such thing as ecumenism: as if any attempt towards it at all must be liberal indifferentism.Can we talk sensibly and intelligently about ecumenism without fighting straw men and resorting to broad brush stereotypes? Or do we reject ecumenism altogether (the tunnel vision "traditionalist" position), as if that is possible, given the Mind on the question of Holy Mother Church?

* * *

The mystery of predestination in all its intricate complexities (the posted article had to do with Calvinism) is so deep that the Church has not still resolved the disputes between Thomism and Molinism, and fully allows both positions (I'm a Molinist, myself): a clear indication that not everything about predestination is fully understood.

Protestants online are forever fighting about predestination and eternal security. All the while souls are going to hell and our world is going to pot, while Christians fight (in the worst sense of that word) tooth and nail.

Many Calvinists (especially the ones who are also anti-Catholics) also think Arminians are either not Christians, or if so, very lousy ones. The whole discussion is a big time-waster, in my opinion. I've debated predestination issues, like I've debated everything else (including with fellow Catholics [Thomists]), but I refuse to make it the most important issue in the history of the world. And that is the problem in many circles of Protestantism. They are obsessed with predestination. I think we should all be obsessed (if about anything) over how to save souls and transform our pro-death culture.

There is respectful discussion and there is destructive civil war. The latter helps no one but the devil and his cause. The former helps a lot of people determine where the truth lies.

I have respect for Calvinism in many ways, and am delighted to have several Calvinist friends. There are excesses in practice and demeanor, but that is true of all groups. I agree that anti-Calvinist bilge is often quite ridiculous and extreme. I've always tried to avoid that, while vigorously disagreeing on theological points. I even have a post where I defend John Calvin against ridiculous personal charges. * * *
Human beings are simply given to extremes. That is the problem so often. Reject one extreme and go to the opposite extreme . . . throw the baby out with the bathwater. Because the liberals believe in indifferentism, therefore there is no possible legitimate ecumenism at all, etc. (so the false logic runs . . .).

This particular discussion in the original post seemed right-minded: "yeah, we disagree on this but we can work together in missions . . . " That is exactly the right emphasis: don't major on abstract and ultimately mysterious issues (predestination and the relation of God's sovereignty and our free will: perhaps the most difficult issue in all of theology), but rather, come together on concrete issues such as how to better follow Christ in our day-to-day lives and how to proclaim His gospel message so that others can also come to Him and to salvation.

That's how Protestants should view it. We Catholics also add the supreme importance of the Church, the [seven] sacraments, and apostolic tradition.

* * *We can agree that pro-life, etc. is a good cause, and spreading the gospel and message of the fullness of Catholicism is also obviously a good cause and imperative.

Different people can be devoted to different things: since both broad goals are good and necessary. Hence my own emphasis (and my calling) is in spreading the Catholic Message. The next person may be devoted to pro-life. No one person can do everything that needs to be done.

What we can all do is refuse to pit these things against each other: social aspects of our faith and theological / spiritual ones. We don't preach and ignore our society altogether, and we don't get into all social action and neglect the faith. We accept both, and say both are good and necessary. And when we do the social stuff, we can fight alongside Protestant brethren: work together in those areas where we agree over against secularism and paganism and immorality.

I can try to reach Protestants and/or nominal or compromised Catholics (as I do all the time) with various Catholic truths. But I can still work side-by-side with them to fight societal evils, while we are not in full agreement.But of course if Christians are always fighting each other, and even despising and reading others out of the faith altogether, then we will hardly work together to accomplish anything. That's the devil's victory of dividing and conquering.

Anti-Catholic Baptist apologist James White was once involved in Operation Rescue as I was (blocking of abortion death camp doors to save lives). He ceased being involved when they did a Catholic prayer one day. That is a prime example of bigotry preventing working together on issues where we fully agree. He could sit with the evil "papists" but he couldn't bear an actual prayer made by them. That was the final straw . . .

Let me say this again for the umpteenth time, as I have for 21 years now:

APOLOGETICS AND ECUMENISM ARE COMPLEMENTARY, NOT CONTRADICTORY

I do both. Catholics are required to do both, per the great emphasis on ecumenism over the past 50 years. It's a good emphasis, and it is not rendered null and void because liberal indifferentists ran with that ball and distorted it for their own nefarious ends.

Many souls go to hell precisely because the world is in such a mess. The more immorality is sanctioned by governments, the more people go down that road and lose their souls. Therefore, the social fight and "theological / spiritual fight" ultimately converge. To fight for Catholic and Christian truth in the public sphere is to help save more souls (indirectly but most definitely).

Certainly this is what Catholic social teaching holds. Jesus is Lord of all of life. Reformed Protestants also place a good and worthy emphasis on that last clause. I know, because I learned it from their circles when I was an Arminian Protestant.

Therefore, to try to separate the two, as if we should overwhelmingly concentrate on one at the expense of the other, is also helping to do the devil's bidding, because he knows that a pagan / immoral society is exactly what is conducive to more souls ending up in hell with him.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the theological / spiritual is primary and ultimate and underpins the other, but the way some argue this issue unnecessarily pits one against the other. And folks broadly termed "anti-ecumenical" routinely do this.
I contend that both are important, and that ecumenism shouldn't be run down. It is a high emphasis in the Church as well. No one could read recent ecumenical encyclicals or Vatican II documents and not know this. That said, we still are called to share the fullness of our Catholic faith with Protestants or try to persuade them of our position. * * *

--- Marcus Grodi (director of The Coming Home Network, and host of the EWTN television show: The Journey Home)

I highly recommend his work, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, which I find to be thoroughly orthodox, well-written, and effective for the purpose of making Catholic truth more understandable and accessible to the public at large.

God bless you in your indefatigable labors on behalf of the Faith! Only God knows how many lives your efforts have touched with the truth. . . . God bless you and give you joy and strength in persevering in your important ministry.

There is someone out there who says what I have to say much better than I ever could -- the smartest Catholic apologist I know of -- Dave Armstrong.

--- Amy Welborn (Catholic author and blogmaster)

I love your books, love your site, love everything you do. God bless you in your work. I'm very grateful for all you've done, and for all you make available. If someone pitches a hard question at me, I go first to your site. Then I send the questioner directly to the page that best answers the question. I know it's going to be on your site.

--- Mike Aquilina (Catholic apologist and author of several books)

People regularly tell me how much they appreciate your work. This new book sounds very useful. Your website is incredible and I recommend it regularly to new Catholics.

--- Al Kresta (Host of Kresta in the Afternoon [EWTN], author of Why Do Catholics Genuflect? and other books)

Dave Armstrong's book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism was one of the first Catholic apologetics books that I read when I was exploring Catholicism. Ever since then, I have continued to appreciate how he articulates the Catholic Faith through his blog and books. I still visit his site when I need a great quote or clarification regarding anything . . . Dave is one of the best cyber-apologists out there.--- Dr. Taylor Marshall (apologist and author of The Crucified Rabbi)

I love how Dave makes so much use of the Scriptures in his arguments, showing that the Bible is fully compatible with Catholicism, even more plausibly so than it is with Protestantism.. . . Dave is the hardest working Catholic apologist I know. He is an inspiration to me.

--- Devin Rose (apologist and author of The Protestant's Dilemma, 28 May 2012 and 30 Aug. 2013)Dave Armstrong['s] website is an amazing treasure trove representing hours–yea a lifetime of material gathered to defend Catholic doctrine. Over the years Dave has gathered the evidence for Catholic teaching from just about every source imaginable. He has the strength not only to understand the Catholic faith, but to understand the subtleties and arguments of his Protestant opponents.--- Fr. Dwight Longenecker (author and prominent blogmaster, 6-29-12)

You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God.--- Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )

You are one of the most thoughtful and careful apologists out there.

Dave, I disagree with you a lot, but you're honorable and gentlemanly, and you really care about truth. Also, I often learn from you, even with regard to my own field. [1-7-14]

--- Dr. Edwin W. Tait (Anglican Church historian)

Dave Armstrong writes me really nice letters when I ask questions. . . . Really, his notes to me are always first class and very respectful and helpful. . . . Dave Armstrong has continued to answer my questions in respectful and helpful ways. I thank the Lord for him.

--- The late Michael Spencer (evangelical Protestant), aka "The Internet Monk", on the Boar's Head Tavern site, 27 and 29 September 2007

Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of "any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine" coalition-building . . . he's pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).

---"CPA": Lutheran professor of history [seehis site]: unsolicited remarks of 12 July 2005

I am reading your stuff since I think it is the most thorough and perhaps the best defense of Catholicism out there . . . Dave has been nothing but respectful and kind to me. He has shown me great respect despite knowing full well that I disagree with him on the essential issues.

Dave has been a full-time apologist for years. He’s done much good for thousands of people.

You have a lot of good things to say, and you're industrious. Your content often is great. You've done yeoman work over the decades, and many more people [should] profit from your writing. They need what you have to say.--- Karl Keating (founder and director of Catholic Answers, the largest Catholic apologetics organization in the world; 5 Sep. 2013 and 1 Jan. 2015)

Whether one agrees with Dave's take on everything or not, everyone should take it quite seriously, because he presents his arguments formidably.

I like the way you present your stuff Dave ... 99% of the time.--- Protestant Dave Scott, 4-22-14 on my personal Facebook page.

Who is this Dave Armstrong? What is he really like? Well, he is affable, gentle, sweet, easily pleased, very appreciative, and affectionate . . . I was totally unprepared for the real guy. He's a teddy bear, cuddly and sweet. Doesn't interrupt, sits quietly and respectfully as his wife and/or another woman speaks at length. Doesn't dominate the conversation. Just pleasantly, cheerfully enjoys whatever is going on about him at the moment and lovingly affirms those in his presence. Most of the time he has a relaxed, sweet smile.

--- Becky Mayhew (Catholic), 9 May 2009, on the Coming Home Network Forum, after meeting me in person.

Every so often, I recommend great apostolates, websites, etc. And I am very careful to recommend only the very best that are entirely Catholic and in union with the Church. Dave Armstrong’s Biblical Evidence for Catholicism site is one of those. It is a veritable treasure chest of information. Dave is thorough in his research, relentlessly orthodox, and very easy to read.

Discussions with you are always a pleasure, agreeing or disagreeing; that is a rarity these days.

--- David Hemlock (Eastern Orthodox Christian), 4 November 2014.

What I've appreciated, Dave, is that you can both dish out and take argumentative points without taking things personally. Very few people can do that on the Internet. I appreciate hard-hitting debate that isn't taken personally.

--- Dr. Lydia McGrew (Anglican), 12 November 2014.

Dave Armstrong is a friend of mine with whom I've had many discussions. He is a prolific Catholic writer and apologist. If you want to know what the Catholic Church really believes, Dave is a good choice. Dave and I have our disagreements, but I'll put my arm around him and consider him a brother. There is too much dishonesty among all sides in stating what the "other side" believes. I'll respect someone who states fairly what the other believes.

Recommended Catholic Apologetics Links and Icons

Protestantism: Critical Reflections of an Ecumenical Catholic

Orthodoxy & Citation Permission

To the best of my knowledge, all of my theological writing is "orthodox" and not contrary to the official dogmatic and magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church. In the event of any (unintentional) doctrinal or moral error on my part having been undeniably demonstrated to be contrary to the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, I will gladly and wholeheartedly submit to the authority and wisdom of the Church (Matthew 28:18-20; 1 Timothy 3:15).

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