FUDU wrote:It might be more than voting patterns, but not a whole lot more, when you get down to the nitty gritty of what is behind the "voting patterns". Most times everything comes down to a very inherent nature or level of accountability in an individual when looking at voting patterns. Most things in political debate breakdown to an almost sub atomic level of personal responsibility and how it is viewed, accepted, excused or held accountable.

I'm not gonna sit here and say our system is so objective and flawless that nothing can stop the will of the people, b/c a significant level of corruptness most certainly can IMO.

How's this; Detroit's problems are far bigger than Detroit. In many ways, they have nothing to do with Detroit. They are but the biggest example. They aren't even the canary in the coalmine as is made out.

I am not saying anything counter to personal responsibility. I am advocating it if you read my posts. But it is a two way street. Not just incumbent upon the working class to follow. Where is the "personal accountability" of the McDonald's CEO making $ 8.4 million/ year putting out a chart showing the working poor how to balance a budget with a 2nd job so they can work 60 hours / week at two jobs to barely get by? What does that do to the family structure the right cherishes? Who is there to make sure the kids do their homework or are in safe environments?

You can't stack the deck so one sided to set up millions for failure and then yell "SEE! They aren't following our rules!" while living like pigs at a trough.

It's insane.

Why wouldn't those folks vote Democratic? Hell, why would they even vote at all instead of sell drugs? The whole concept of market rationale is that people will act in their self-interest. I believe in most market-based principles.

Detroit is the chickens coming home to roost of the great American capital class/working class social contract that created the greatest economy and standard of living in the world began to be violated in the early 80's. Now it's but a topic of derision, not even lamented.

Dan, I hate to say this, but some people just don't have the grey matter to hack it in a knowledge based economy and never will. I'm not talking about just higher ed either. have a conversation about FMB about high quality welding sometime. Understand the smarts and dexterity you have to have to be a journeyman tradesman. There's plenty of people who just aren't that blessed. Remember, "The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny."

If someone will work their tail off for a solid 45 / week they should get a fair shake at a living wage in this country. There's enough to go around. It creates markets and is good for the country. Henry Ford understood that and Detroit thrived. We forgot that and Detroit crumbled.

And don't get all apoplectic. I'm not suggesting government wealth redistribution. The government is too bloated, inept and corrupt to do that. But a legislated minimum wage that could provide for something a little better for someone, and adult, who isn't education material? I can buy in.

Agree totally with the idea that we need to rid ourselves of the notion that everyone should get a 4-year degree. No job is more outsource-proof than a skilled trade. But there is still a stigma (in elite circles) attached to careers as electricians, plumbers, carpenters, welders, etc. That needs to end.

We have a government legislated minimum wage, and the people who are constantly agitating to raise it are mostly unaware that such efforts hurt the low-income workers they purport to help. Only about 2% of US workers make minimum wage, and of those, a large majority are not the primary wage-earners in their households. When it goes up...low-income workers lose jobs in large numbers, and it makes it harder for any employer to hire new low-skill workers.

A favorite quote from T.S. Eliot comes to mind, when I hear about the people who think they can legislate a higher standard of living for others...

Like the people of Washington DC, who have prevented Walmart from building the six stores the company had planned for the city. They wanted to mandate a minimum wage of $12.50/hr...just for WalMart...better than 50% more than the minimum for everyone else. Forget that the average non-management WalMart worker makes between $10-11/hr...but the city has managed to keep their residents from getting the hundreds if not thousands of jobs they desperately need...and prevented their residents from saving money on groceries and other items they want to buy...but boy, they sure stuck it to those rich WalMart executives! The stores will not be built. The low-income workers and the unemployed lose. And the rich elites high-five each other for the principled stance they took with those rich rubes from Arkansas. Fuck the people.

“Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm; but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves."

Edit: Another argument for not raising the minimum wage...in the category of unintended consequences...for teenagers (already the largest segment of min wage workers) it makes work more attractive relative to school, and has the effect of increasing the H.S. dropout rate, one of the biggest problems we are trying to remedy.

Last edited by danwismar on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

FUDU wrote:It might be more than voting patterns, but not a whole lot more, when you get down to the nitty gritty of what is behind the "voting patterns". Most times everything comes down to a very inherent nature or level of accountability in an individual when looking at voting patterns. Most things in political debate breakdown to an almost sub atomic level of personal responsibility and how it is viewed, accepted, excused or held accountable.

I'm not gonna sit here and say our system is so objective and flawless that nothing can stop the will of the people, b/c a significant level of corruptness most certainly can IMO.

How's this; Detroit's problems are far bigger than Detroit. In many ways, they have nothing to do with Detroit. They are but the biggest example. They aren't even the canary in the coalmine as is made out.

I am not saying anything counter to personal responsibility. I am advocating it if you read my posts. But it is a two way street. Not just incumbent upon the working class to follow. Where is the "personal accountability" of the McDonald's CEO making $ 8.4 million/ year putting out a chart showing the working poor how to balance a budget with a 2nd job so they can work 60 hours / week at two jobs to barely get by? What does that do to the family structure the right cherishes? Who is there to make sure the kids do their homework or are in safe environments?

You can't stack the deck so one sided to set up millions for failure and then yell "SEE! They aren't following our rules!" while living like pigs at a trough.

It's insane.

Why wouldn't those folks vote Democratic? Hell, why would they even vote at all instead of sell drugs? The whole concept of market rationale is that people will act in their self-interest. I believe in most market-based principles.

Detroit is the chickens coming home to roost of the great American capital class/working class social contract that created the greatest economy and standard of living in the world began to be violated in the early 80's. Now it's but a topic of derision, not even lamented.

That's a fair post, some I agree with some I don't, not worth a long reply on each specific that will get off track too much.

RE: why wouldn't they vote democratic, well voting democratic served them how? How did that work out for them for the first 10 even 20 years? As you say it does go both ways, so if voting D was the answer to whatever problems they had before what is the statute of limitations on when to NOT vote D based on IT not changing anything? Is that not the very definition of insanity?

To your EG of the working poor, um why is somebody literally settling for that 2 job 60hr/week option, and why so many, for so long, in times that were noticeably better than the past few years? I'm not saying things aren't at least a little out of balance, but at some point excuses need to stop for people whose lives didn't turn out the best or even the way they envisioned.

I'm not going to over generalize on this, but many of the poor or lesser off in this country haven't a clue what being poor truly is. Not the slightest clue.

Where I will meet you in the middle is, the individual needs the bail out next time around, not the corps or the banks, and I'm not just talking a cash bail out. I'm talking long term tax policy that allows a person who puts forth the effort to keep theirs and build a sustainable lifestyle regardless of what the overreaching govt. or Joe Jobless is doing.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I'm not going to over generalize on this, but many of the poor or lesser off in this country haven't a clue what being poor truly is. Not the slightest clue.

This is just too funny.

It's eye opening true, and scary at the same time.

I just looked over some photos from Haiti and parts of Brazil (from a friend who spent a handful of months south of out border, unreal, truly unreal). Too many people here take way too much for granted, I know I take some things for granted.

FUDU wrote:It might be more than voting patterns, but not a whole lot more, when you get down to the nitty gritty of what is behind the "voting patterns". Most times everything comes down to a very inherent nature or level of accountability in an individual when looking at voting patterns. Most things in political debate breakdown to an almost sub atomic level of personal responsibility and how it is viewed, accepted, excused or held accountable.

I'm not gonna sit here and say our system is so objective and flawless that nothing can stop the will of the people, b/c a significant level of corruptness most certainly can IMO.

How's this; Detroit's problems are far bigger than Detroit. In many ways, they have nothing to do with Detroit. They are but the biggest example. They aren't even the canary in the coalmine as is made out.

I am not saying anything counter to personal responsibility. I am advocating it if you read my posts. But it is a two way street. Not just incumbent upon the working class to follow. Where is the "personal accountability" of the McDonald's CEO making $ 8.4 million/ year putting out a chart showing the working poor how to balance a budget with a 2nd job so they can work 60 hours / week at two jobs to barely get by? What does that do to the family structure the right cherishes? Who is there to make sure the kids do their homework or are in safe environments?

You can't stack the deck so one sided to set up millions for failure and then yell "SEE! They aren't following our rules!" while living like pigs at a trough.

It's insane.

Why wouldn't those folks vote Democratic? Hell, why would they even vote at all instead of sell drugs? The whole concept of market rationale is that people will act in their self-interest. I believe in most market-based principles.

Detroit is the chickens coming home to roost of the great American capital class/working class social contract that created the greatest economy and standard of living in the world began to be violated in the early 80's. Now it's but a topic of derision, not even lamented.

That's a fair post, some I agree with some I don't, not worth a long reply on each specific that will get off track too much.

RE: why wouldn't they vote democratic, well voting democratic served them how? How did that work out for them for the first 10 even 20 years? As you say it does go both ways, so if voting D was the answer to whatever problems they had before what is the statute of limitations on when to NOT vote D based on IT not changing anything? Is that not the very definition of insanity?

To your EG of the working poor, um why is somebody literally settling for that 2 job 60hr/week option, and why so many, for so long, in times that were noticeably better than the past few years? I'm not saying things aren't at least a little out of balance, but at some point excuses need to stop for people whose lives didn't turn out the best or even the way they envisioned.

I'm not going to over generalize on this, but many of the poor or lesser off in this country haven't a clue what being poor truly is. Not the slightest clue.

Where I will meet you in the middle is, the individual needs the bail out next time around, not the corps or the banks, and I'm not just talking a cash bail out. I'm talking long term tax policy that allows a person who puts forth the effort to keep theirs and build a sustainable lifestyle regardless of what the overreaching govt. or Joe Jobless is doing.

Where we can't do bidness is here FUDU.

I think the Democratoc party is about 75% useless. It's constituencies are less loathsome than the GOP's.

I'm not going to over generalize on this, but many of the poor or lesser off in this country haven't a clue what being poor truly is. Not the slightest clue.

This is just too funny.

I was thinking arrogant. But yeah, funny works too.

It would be arrogant if I was a 1%er, or if I was never down in the dumps. I've been down in the dumps, I had less than most of America and I still had it better than most of the planet. The reason it was temporary for me was b/c of those magic words, personal responsibility. Learn it, live it, love it. ...and please spare me the "my brothers keeper" psychobabble hypocrisy.

As far as your point on uselessness, I can't agree obviously, but I agree that politicians in general are useless.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I'm not going to over generalize on this, but many of the poor or lesser off in this country haven't a clue what being poor truly is. Not the slightest clue.

This is just too funny.

I was thinking arrogant. But yeah, funny works too.

It would be arrogant if I was a 1%er, or if I was never down in the dumps. I've been down in the dumps, I had less than most of America and I still had it better than most of the planet. The reason it was temporary for me was b/c of those magic words, personal responsibility. Learn it, live it, love it. ...and please spare me the "my brothers keeper" psychobabble hypocrisy.

As far as your point on uselessness, I can't agree obviously, but I agree that politicians in general are useless.

Clarence you went to private school. You didn't grow up in the barrio going to Lincoln-West. Did your paper route pay Ed's tuition?

And as far as the "psychobable hypocracy", so we aren't a nation founded on Judeo-Christian ethics now? I mean, I didn't come up with that. The Holy Cross brothers should have taught you that. And you righties like all that when we're talking basis for laws making government small enough to fit into my bedroom.

But yeah, you got your scarps, F everyone else. I get it.

I don't cotton lazy welfare folk. I don;'t think working 50 hours a week no matter the skill or market value ought to put you in a McMansion in Bah Villahhhge. But it ought to get you a square deal in the USA.

As to the slums of sao paulo? My vote can't really impact that. That's up to Brazillians.

None of that is directed at you personally JB, you know that, but when I see 80% of the people walk by theor brother tjat needs help I call BS, especially when a political group like todays liberals claim their cause is the name of such good lookin out for others. LMAO.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:None of that is directed at you personally JB, you know that, but when I see 80% of the people walk by theor brother tjat needs help I call BS, especially when a political group like todays liberals claim their cause is the name of such good lookin out for others. LMAO.

Hypocrisy abounds I understand. And the dems have demagogued and used/abused such thoughts for bloated and wasteful programs and gawdaweful government jobs. I can tell you that I've been a manager in a union environment and there's NFW I'll ever do that again if at all possible. I've also consulted in fed govt union environments and it was an experience in every anti-DC GOP editorial rant imaginable. Like I said, 75% useless. maybe even 80%.

But compared to the GOP's hypocrisy, brand of crazy and performance? Pfffft.

I'll stick to my guns. I have no use for those who won't work. But if you do, and if you bust your ass full-time , you should get a fair shake in this country to at least not live in poverty. Doesnt mean you should be entitled to live large. That's up to your personal responsibility, priorities, ability, drive, etc. But you shouldn't get screwed.

I remember when Clinto said every kid in America should have a college education...

My first response was..."Whose going to do all the work?"

I overlooked the immigrant angle that lazy white trash claims are taking all the construction jobs

The fact is, not many want to do anything physical or get their hands dirty anymore...they want to spend their time cold calling me at my desk while I'M! working and think I'll do business with them without a face to face meet

In any event.... I've never met a poor plumber...could you imagine if he had student loans to pay off, too?

I get fucking solicitation faxes all day long...from cruises to biz loans to wet saw blades that won't last a week...

I now wait till I get 20-30 pages of them then send all 30 to everyone who sent me a fax...eat me cocksuckers!

Hell, I even send copies of Requests for Bids I get from general contractors

One of these days I'm going to fax a whole fucking ream of paper to everyone of those lazy SoB's

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:I remember when Clinto said every kid in America should have a college education...

My first response was..."Whose going to do all the work?"

I overlooked the immigrant angle that lazy white trash claims are taking all the construction jobs

The fact is, not many want to do anything physical or get their hands dirty anymore...they want to spend their time cold calling me at my desk while I'M! working and think I'll do business with them without a face to face meet

In any event.... I've never met a poor plumber...could you imagine if he had student loans to pay off, too?

I get fucking solicitation faxes all day long...from cruises to biz loans to wet saw blades that won't last a week...

I now wait till I get 20-30 pages of them then send all 30 to everyone who sent me a fax...eat me cocksuckers!

Hell, I even send copies of Requests for Bids I get from general contractors

One of these days I'm going to fax a whole fucking ream of paper to everyone of those lazy SoB's

But not everyone is smart enough to be a plumber. I think one of the HUGE misconceptions is that only white collared jobs = smart. A good plumber is freaking brilliant. Looking at those angles, breaking it down, the dexterity.... Look at that shit you do with welding. You have to be a frickin artist.

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:I remember when Clinto said every kid in America should have a college education...

My first response was..."Whose going to do all the work?"

I overlooked the immigrant angle that lazy white trash claims are taking all the construction jobs

The fact is, not many want to do anything physical or get their hands dirty anymore...they want to spend their time cold calling me at my desk while I'M! working and think I'll do business with them without a face to face meet

In any event.... I've never met a poor plumber...could you imagine if he had student loans to pay off, too?

I get fucking solicitation faxes all day long...from cruises to biz loans to wet saw blades that won't last a week...

I now wait till I get 20-30 pages of them then send all 30 to everyone who sent me a fax...eat me cocksuckers!

Hell, I even send copies of Requests for Bids I get from general contractors

One of these days I'm going to fax a whole fucking ream of paper to everyone of those lazy SoB's

But not everyone is smart enough to be a plumber. I think one of the HUGE misconceptions is that only white collared jobs = smart. A good plumber is freaking brilliant. Looking at those angles, breaking it down, the dexterity.... Look at that shit you do with welding. You have to be a frickin artist.

A perfect EG of why the opportunity cost of college is completely under stated. Might be the single biggest thing wrong with education.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I'm not going to over generalize on this, but many of the poor or lesser off in this country haven't a clue what being poor truly is. Not the slightest clue.

This is just too funny.

I was thinking arrogant. But yeah, funny works too.

It would be arrogant if I was a 1%er, or if I was never down in the dumps. I've been down in the dumps, I had less than most of America and I still had it better than most of the planet. The reason it was temporary for me was b/c of those magic words, personal responsibility. Learn it, live it, love it. ...and please spare me the "my brothers keeper" psychobabble hypocrisy.

As far as your point on uselessness, I can't agree obviously, but I agree that politicians in general are useless.

Clarence you went to private school. You didn't grow up in the barrio going to Lincoln-West. Did your paper route pay Ed's tuition?

And as far as the "psychobable hypocracy", so we aren't a nation founded on Judeo-Christian ethics now? I mean, I didn't come up with that. The Holy Cross brothers should have taught you that. And you righties like all that when we're talking basis for laws making government small enough to fit into my bedroom.

But yeah, you got your scarps, F everyone else. I get it.

I don't cotton lazy welfare folk. I don;'t think working 50 hours a week no matter the skill or market value ought to put you in a McMansion in Bah Villahhhge. But it ought to get you a square deal in the USA.

As to the slums of sao paulo? My vote can't really impact that. That's up to Brazillians.

I was referring to life on my own, post HS. Didn't have much, and looking back it was all due to MY choices, not what the rest of the world was doing to "hold me back". But even while young, spending 12 years in private education, we didn't have much, b/c our lone breadwinner had the brains to know how to prioritize, and instill a level of sacrifice. Read the link I gave you, we were either ten years behind the curve on that stuff or never had it.

That's not the case these days, and you know it.

I disagree with you that there's no square deal for those efforts, the problem is life is tough, and we, well some people will only walk down the path of least resistance. There's opportunity out there, it's everywhere, and there's equal opportunity. The problem is equal opportunity is often confused with equal outcome. The entire concept of equal outcome is absurd.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Woah woah woah there Hoss. No one EVER said anything about "equal outcome". That's absurd.

I'm just talking about a fair shake if you work hard. Aren't you? You can't see the common ground there?

You can't have equal outcomes. All have equal rights but all are far from equal. I will never bench press 300 pounds. I will never learn high level calculus and astro physics. I don't have those gifts. For some, the best they really can do is push a broom. That's honorable if that is your ceiling. If you can work hard and improve your lie honorably and live in that mansion and drive that Maybach, more power to you. If you can buy 500 mansions and Maybachs and have a FU I got mine good luck on that $8.50 / hour working 50 a week thing attitude? Something is wrong with you.

To me, this is the perfect story about the "FU I got mine good luck" attitude:

e0y2e3 wrote:Gawd love America, where white dudes that go to private schools can talk about only having a mirror to blame for their problems.

Probably the funniest thing ever written in this forum.

Geezes fucking christ, FUDU, that is bad for even you.

"You live in the ghetto and grew up with that shit school because of choices you made motherfuckers!"

I know a dude who is a flight attendant. He couldn't run more counter to that stereotype. Good dude, solid guy. FA was a later career shift in a blue collar jobs life.

Staunch GOP voter.

I never talk about it to him and hits his business, but I think to myself, If ever there should be a straight ticket dem voter, you're it. You make a damn good living essentially pushing a beverage cart with a captive audience. Yeah, I know the lame rap about how passenger safety is the real job, but c'mon. I fly 1,000 miles / month. All you can do is push a button for security and tell the passengers how to kiss their asses goodbye by bending low enough in the crash curl position. You ckick seat counts, lock a door, and then it's all about pouring drinks. If not for being a ramora on the the pilots union and union protection that's a minimum wage job if I ever saw one. takles much more ability to stock a shelf at Target. The GOP would de-unionize that shit faster than you can say "cracka pleazuh". Which wouldn't be bad to me as we might be able to go back to the days of hot female flight attendants under 55 years old.

Not understanding self-interest and not understanding class warfare is alive and well; you're just to obtuse to realize you're getting stabbed in the heart. It's what's for breakfast.

I know a dude who is a flight attendant. He couldn't run more counter to that stereotype. Good dude, solid guy. FA was a later career shift in a blue collar jobs life.

Staunch GOP voter.

I never talk about it to him and hits his business, but I think to myself, If ever there should be a straight ticket dem voter, you're it. You make a damn good living essentially pushing a beverage cart with a captive audience. Yeah, I know the lame rap about how passenger safety is the real job, but c'mon. I fly 1,000 miles / month. All you can do is push a button for security and tell the passengers how to kiss their asses goodbye by bending low enough in the crash curl position. You ckick seat counts, lock a door, and then it's all about pouring drinks. If not for being a ramora on the the pilots union and union protection that's a minimum wage job if I ever saw one. takles much more ability to stock a shelf at Target. The GOP would de-unionize that shit faster than you can say "cracka pleazuh". Which wouldn't be bad to me as we might be able to go back to the days of hot female flight attendants under 55 years old.

Not understanding self-interest and not understanding class warfare is alive and well; you're just to obtuse to realize you're getting stabbed in the heart. It's what's for breakfast.

It's because Osama Obama is stealing his money to give undeserving poor lazy fucks ("who are only poor because of their own choices, no one is poor by birth in this country" - FUDU) for health insurance and food stamps.

And we all know our privatized health insurance program was great and getting the job done in a perfectly cost effective manner so all of those taxes and additional health insurance costs Osama Obama is putting on him are just so lazy people (aka "the poor" per FUDU) can stay lazy.

This is America, just snap your fingers twice and you too can work 50 hours a week for the minimum wage!

("There are plenty of public restrooms to clean damnit" - FUDU).

("And if you did something stupid like get busted dealing as a young kid trying to support yourself, or you got caught up in gang culture because you had no parents outside of mom and her rock problem, well that's your fault" - FUDU)

("Inner city schools and sub-standard rural schools are highly functioning learning institutions which in turn provide their students with many chances to have great lives, it is the students who refuse to take advantage of these great schools" - FUDU)

jb wrote:Woah woah woah there Hoss. No one EVER said anything about "equal outcome". That's absurd.

I'm just talking about a fair shake if you work hard. Aren't you? You can't see the common ground there?

You can't have equal outcomes. All have equal rights but all are far from equal. I will never bench press 300 pounds. I will never learn high level calculus and astro physics. I don't have those gifts. For some, the best they really can do is push a broom. That's honorable if that is your ceiling. If you can work hard and improve your lie honorably and live in that mansion and drive that Maybach, more power to you. If you can buy 500 mansions and Maybachs and have a FU I got mine good luck on that $8.50 / hour working 50 a week thing attitude? Something is wrong with you.

To me, this is the perfect story about the "FU I got mine good luck" attitude:

Here's the thing JB, every single person on the planet is born into circumstance they have no control over, even Jesus Christ himself didn't have a hand in when and when he was born, so puhlease talk apples to apples here.

The ultimate hurdle when talking about this is personal responsibility. You can slice it any way you want be there's no way around that, save for those that are truly not capable. That is the blessing we have in this country, we've created avenues for that. Otherwise, who is holding you back? So basically you're misrepresenting my overall point, I only ask people take care of themselves. It isn't too much to ask: feed, cloth and house yourself. If you can't, then get to the bottom of why, more times than not the reason isn't everyone else or the system.

I mean do we really need to go over an itemized list of things that are necessities in life and things that are luxuries? If you have luxuries and lack necessities what do you want me to do for you? You're too smart to not see what being poor in this country is compared to the rest of the world.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

jb wrote:Woah woah woah there Hoss. No one EVER said anything about "equal outcome". That's absurd.

I'm just talking about a fair shake if you work hard. Aren't you? You can't see the common ground there?

You can't have equal outcomes. All have equal rights but all are far from equal. I will never bench press 300 pounds. I will never learn high level calculus and astro physics. I don't have those gifts. For some, the best they really can do is push a broom. That's honorable if that is your ceiling. If you can work hard and improve your lie honorably and live in that mansion and drive that Maybach, more power to you. If you can buy 500 mansions and Maybachs and have a FU I got mine good luck on that $8.50 / hour working 50 a week thing attitude? Something is wrong with you.

To me, this is the perfect story about the "FU I got mine good luck" attitude:

Here's the thing JB, every single person on the planet is born into circumstance they have no control over, even Jesus Christ himself didn't have a hand in when and when he was born, so puhlease talk apples to apples here.

The ultimate hurdle when talking about this is personal responsibility. You can slice it any way you want be there's no way around that, save for those that are truly not capable. That is the blessing we have in this country, we've created avenues for that. Otherwise, who is holding you back? So basically you're misrepresenting my overall point, I only ask people take care of themselves. It isn't too much to ask: feed, cloth and house yourself. If you can't, then get to the bottom of why, more times than not the reason isn't everyone else or the system.

I mean do we really need to go over an itemized list of things that are necessities in life and things that are luxuries? If you have luxuries and lack necessities what do you want me to do for you? You're too smart to not see what being poor in this country is compared to the rest of the world.

I think McDonald's should understand what Henry Ford understood. But I also know that to be unrealistic.Corporations should be wiser and think past quarter to quarter, but they can't with public holdings. So the realistic fall back is some sort of half assed fed govt involvement raising min wage to so arbitrary number and to finally implement Ronnie's idea of a 2 tiered min wage. It is still OK to cite Reagan to the right, isn't it?

And I am a bad person. I eat meat and I'm an American first, "world citizen" second.

This might shock you but I'm actually for a MW, I think a first world industrialized country like ours can handle such a strange concept in a free market. Personally I think anyone's efforts are deserving of a minimum compensation. But the MW discussion too often expounds into the absurdity of a living wage.

Think about the MW and the data, it almost negligible the impact it has considering the demographics of MW are not the long term family bread winners.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU - Straight up for shits & giggles, what's your take on this fantasy.

Unless you are like straight up 100% certified retarded or a quad, all fomrs of any welfare are eliminated at all levels.

Unemployment insurance runs no longer than 3 months. No exceptions.

The Federal Government sets minimum wage for anyone over 18 years of age at $ 15.00 / hour with a COLA formula. No limits on hours worked, no BS loop holes. You work one hour / week, you get $ 18 / hour. At 40 / week accounting for vaca that's $ 30K / year.

Don't work? FU.

Work at anything full time that the market says has value? A living wage.

jb wrote:FUDU - Straight up for shits & giggles, what's your take on this fantasy.

Unless you are like straight up 100% certified retarded or a quad, all fomrs of any welfare are eliminated at all levels.

Unemployment insurance runs no longer than 3 months. No exceptions.

The Federal Government sets minimum wage for anyone over 18 years of age at $ 15.00 / hour with a COLA formula. No limits on hours worked, no BS loop holes. You work one hour / week, you get $ 18 / hour. At 40 / week accounting for vaca that's $ 30K / year.

Don't work? FU.

Work at anything full time that the market says has value? A living wage.

How do you think society would change?

I'm open to many ideas, even short term ideas that give off the odor of socialism.

It sounds worthy of working out the important details, and sounds somewhat like ideas Gadfly has, he has an augmentation idea somewhat along the lines of a 5 figure supplement from the FEDs for every single person.

One problem I see with you idea is what do we do with all the people working in the entitlement system? They now become jobless for the short term at least, so many people that it is a major problem, I don't know. The other problem is what is to stop the corporate economy from only having two tier of pay structures, MW @ $15/hr and 6 figures for whom they pick and choose?

I'm more for a complete overhaul of tax code and making our first $XX,XXX 100% tax exempt, for the purpose of sustaining the necessities of life. After that we pay as we go and we pay taxes on our luxuries in life. Also, to appease the "there's no equality and too much disparity" crowd change the code to allow some form of legacy building. Admittedly doing that without letting the gap between the rich and everyone else grow would be tricky.

Of course it's assumed we stop spending billions on hopeless war games.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

jb wrote:FUDU - Straight up for shits & giggles, what's your take on this fantasy.

Unless you are like straight up 100% certified retarded or a quad, all fomrs of any welfare are eliminated at all levels.

Unemployment insurance runs no longer than 3 months. No exceptions.

The Federal Government sets minimum wage for anyone over 18 years of age at $ 15.00 / hour with a COLA formula. No limits on hours worked, no BS loop holes. You work one hour / week, you get $ 18 / hour. At 40 / week accounting for vaca that's $ 30K / year.

Don't work? FU.

Work at anything full time that the market says has value? A living wage.

How do you think society would change?

I'm open to many ideas, even short term ideas that give off the odor of socialism.

It sounds worthy of working out the important details, and sounds somewhat like ideas Gadfly has, he has an augmentation idea somewhat along the lines of a 5 figure supplement from the FEDs for every single person.

One problem I see with you idea is what do we do with all the people working in the entitlement system? They now become jobless for the short term at least, so many people that it is a major problem, I don't know. The other problem is what is to stop the corporate economy from only having two tier of pay structures, MW @ $15/hr and 6 figures for whom they pick and choose?

I'm more for a complete overhaul of tax code and making our first $XX,XXX 100% tax exempt, for the purpose of sustaining the necessities of life. After that we pay as we go and we pay taxes on our luxuries in life. Also, to appease the "there's no equality and too much disparity" crowd change the code to allow some form of legacy building. Admittedly doing that without letting the gap between the rich and everyone else grow would be tricky.

Of course it's assumed we stop spending billions on hopeless war games.

I start twitching reflexively anytime anyone suggests using the tax code to social engineer. I also don't like the government defining a luxury from a necessity. Individuals should have personal responsibility to do that. But I am intrigued by exempting the first X amount. Who knew you for a prog tax rater?

Set the floor on pay so the USA isn't Bangladesh/Detroit and let the market sort out the rest. Blow away the huge disincentive to work that exists currently. The positive societal change would be profound.

And amen to ending the stupid pointless neo-con world social engineering/ international socialist wars.