George1 wrote:"At $66.3 billion, Russia’s military spending in 2017 was 20% lower than in 2016, the first annual decrease since 1998.Military modernization remains a priority in Russia,but the military budget has been restricted by economic problems that the country has experienced since 2014"

https://twitter.com/SIPRIorg/status/991565535698702337

What was the Russian budget in roubles for both years?

Only numbers

Budget allocations for the section "National Defense" in 2018 will amount to 2 771 784.6 million rubles, in 2019 - 2 798 497.4 million rubles and in 2020 - 2 807 994.3 million rubles. In relation to the GDP of the corresponding year, the share of the expenditures of the "National Defense" section will make up 3.1 percent in 2017, 2.8 percent in 2018, 2.7 percent in 2019 and 2.5 percent in 2020.

Budget allocations in 2016 under the section "National Defense" are planned in the amount of 2 886 197.9 million rubles.The volume of budgetary appropriations in 2016 compared to the level of 2015 is less by 225,414.7 million rubles, of which, due to a reduction in budgetary allocations for:

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/1510687.html

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4811933

ok eclectic sources but in short: in Rubles budget is wobbling around 2,8trillion rub. And with growth of economy will grow either.

Arrow wrote:China now to catch up russia technology. They are already building aircraft carriers, many modern destroyers, developed ABM Hito to kill technologies, J-20 goes into service. In the coming years, they will defeat Russia in everything.

What you mean defeat? BTW ACs are based on Soviet designs and deck fighters on Su-27

Arrow wrote:China now to catch up russia technology. They are already building aircraft carriers, many modern destroyers, developed ABM Hito to kill technologies, J-20 goes into service. In the coming years, they will defeat Russia in everything.

Ok Vann. Whatever you say

Shotgun effect isn't hit to kill kinetic but no different than what Russia already posses and has had for decades. Chinese J-20 is a nice joke, hence why they are still interested in Russian tech.

Arrow wrote:China now to catch up russia technology. They are already building aircraft carriers, many modern destroyers, developed ABM Hito to kill technologies, J-20 goes into service. In the coming years, they will defeat Russia in everything.

America has x10 the size of Russia's defence budget, well over twice its population, a huge tradition of innovation; yet even it is hardly defeating Russia in everything.

China meanwhile still buying technologies from the Ukraine. Old 80s stuff like the An-124 and An-225 plans.They have a rather long way to go.I'll believe Chinese kinetic warhead ABMs and stealth fighters when I see them in action.

George1 wrote:"At $66.3 billion, Russia’s military spending in 2017 was 20% lower than in 2016, the first annual decrease since 1998.Military modernization remains a priority in Russia,but the military budget has been restricted by economic problems that the country has experienced since 2014"

https://twitter.com/SIPRIorg/status/991565535698702337

What was the Russian budget in roubles for both years?

Only numbers

Budget allocations for the section "National Defense" in 2018 will amount to 2 771 784.6 million rubles, in 2019 - 2 798 497.4 million rubles and in 2020 - 2 807 994.3 million rubles. In relation to the GDP of the corresponding year, the share of the expenditures of the "National Defense" section will make up 3.1 percent in 2017, 2.8 percent in 2018, 2.7 percent in 2019 and 2.5 percent in 2020.

Budget allocations in 2016 under the section "National Defense" are planned in the amount of 2 886 197.9 million rubles.The volume of budgetary appropriations in 2016 compared to the level of 2015 is less by 225,414.7 million rubles, of which, due to a reduction in budgetary allocations for:

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/1510687.html

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4811933

ok eclectic sources but in short: in Rubles budget is wobbling around 2,8trillion rub. And with growth of economy will grow either.

SIPRI clearly has its own calculation... methods. According to them the GDP share of Russia's military spending is also much higher than officially. It's weird how this shit is "news" every year, now built around this grand narrative about "Russia's economic problems". All of these "cuts" have been known for a long time and in fact, I think they were already supposed to be in place last year. But according to SIPRI, only now!? In any case, move on people, nothing happened.

To their credit, SIPRI's figures are atleast slightly more accurate than the official figures directly from governments in USD. China is maybe the best and most important example. Officially China still spends only around 1.3% of its GDP on defence. SIPRI actually seems to boost that to 2%+. So it's closer to the truth, but even then it doesn't take PPP into account, so that 230 billion still underestimates China's defence spending quite considerably, but of course to a lesser extent that Russia's.

And really, Russian military budget in dollars is literally irrelevant. So is Saudi Arabia's, but to other extreme. Shouldn't this be immediately obvious to everyone who knows anything about the subject, seriously?

Why these organisations don't simply use PPP when it comes to Russia's military spending (and China's also) is beyond me, especially after 2014's devaluation.

flamming_python wrote:China meanwhile still buying technologies from the Ukraine. Old 80s stuff like the An-124 and An-225 plans.They have a rather long way to go.I'll believe Chinese kinetic warhead ABMs and stealth fighters when I see them in action.

And at the same time they are building Y-20 heavy transports and pumping out about 3 missiledestroyers per year....With 20+ J-20 fighters in service and counting they seem to be doing alot better then Russia in that department aswell.

What about T-50 ? Still in tests And no funds for buying the T-50 now.

Who said there were no funds?

The RuAF said its not interested until the 5th gen engines are ready.And now they nearly are. They've surpassed the latest F-35 model engines by thrust-to-weight ratio; while offering true 3D thrust vectoring.

And China still buys its engines and radars from Russia for a couple of its fighter models. What are the chances that the J-20 will be able to match the Su-57 in sensors or manueverability/mobility?About the stealth airframe - that's nice and everything, but even Iran can create a stealth airframe. The real challenge is balancing stealth against all the other characteristics important to a fighter.The J-20 looks nice and stealthy but I don't know anything else about it.

Russia build many 22800

And what does China (or the US) have that offers the capabilities of the 22800 or the 21630 for its size and price?

walle83 wrote:And at the same time they are building Y-20 heavy transports

So what Russia is now supposed to be pumping up strategic airlifters just to look good next to China? Even if it has no use for that many and it's a waste of money?

Russia is building more than enough Il-476s and has the Il-112, Il-114 and others in the pipeline.

Russia inherited most of the Soviet air fleet. Full of still very capable aircraft. That can be cheaply modernized and refurbished in many cases to serve for another decade or 2 more, rather than have to build all new models.

China on the other hand had to deal with with a fleet dating back to 50s-era designs; indigenzied versions of the An-12, An-24 and so on. And the only thing heavier than those they had were some Il-76s they imported in the 90s and 2000s. So of course their only real choice is to procure a large amount of new aircraft from scratch.

and pumping out about 3 missiledestroyers per year....

They're expensive and not a priority for Russia, simple as that.Especially as Russia's main doctrine right now is control of its coastal waters and countering the American navy in the Atlantic. Smaller ships and investments into anti-ship missiles do fine for that.

But the destroyers will come. Slavas/Udaloys/Sovremennys/Kirovs can't last forever.

With 20+ J-20 fighters in service and counting they seem to be doing alot better then Russia in that department aswell.

The Chinese seem to be in a hurry to rush the 5th-gen aircraft out. Russia isn't.

And yet they also bought a party of Su-35s not long ago and are now talking about buying another party.

What do they need the Su-35 for if the J-20 is already superior in every respect?

Last edited by flamming_python on Thu May 03, 2018 7:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

walle83 wrote:And at the same time they are building Y-20 heavy transports and pumping out about 3 missiledestroyers per year....

great! this mean they got to level of Il-76 now! Why Russia needs so many destroyers I don't know? Could you please elaborate on this?

With 20+ J-20 fighters in service and counting they seem to be doing alot better then Russia in that department aswell.

Yet still without logical reason they bought Su-35 and negotiating engines delivery. Can you perhaps explain this? Obviously China pumps lots of cash in industry but it has its priorities (navy af then ICBMs) Russia other way around. Russia unlike China is the only country to destroy USA. If Us warmongers start aggression form verbal to military.

Why does Russia needs Pak-FA in number is USA has 180 of worthy F-22 only?! To show off?

Some country claiming something is "in service" means nothing. How many years the F-35 is in service? Still thousand deficits. Can´t even use its radar.

You are absolutely right, Kimppis. Each and every month the "economic problems" in Russia are back. Most western countries would love to have this "problems". Low debt. Lot of money in reserve. Lot of Gold. Ressources in abundance.

flamming_python wrote:The RuAF said its not interested until the 5th gen engines are ready.And now they nearly are. They've surpassed the latest F-35 model engines by thrust-to-weight ratio; while offering true 3D thrust vectoring.

And China still buys its engines and radars from Russia for a couple of its fighter models. What are the chances that the J-20 will be able to match the Su-57 in sensors or manueverability/mobility?About the stealth airframe - that's nice and everything, but even Iran can create a stealth airframe. The real challenge is balancing stealth against all the other characteristics important to a fighter.The J-20 looks nice and stealthy but I don't know anything else about it.

Russia has been delaying the Su-57 for years now. First it was 2015, then it was 2016...now they are talking about 2019? Becouse the lack of 5th generation engines? Well i would say becouse of the lack of cash. Lack of money leads to slow development that leads to things getting delayed, leading to fewer and fewer airframes getting orderd.

flamming_python wrote:And what does China (or the US) have that offers the capabilities of the 22800 or the 21630 for its size and price?

Thats not really a fair comparisment. China and the US have no need for small corvettes with longe range missiles. They are filling thier navies with larger vessels for a different kind of warfare. As for the 22800 it feels more of a panic replacement for the project 11356. When Ukraine stoped selling them engines for the larger vessels they had go small.China probably could add long range missiles to their Type-056 corvettes if they wanted to, but its no need when they already have the larger frigates and destroyers doing that job.

flamming_python wrote:So what Russia is now supposed to be pumping up strategic airlifters just to look good next to China? Even if it has no use for that many and it's a waste of money?

Russia is building more than enough Il-476s and has the Il-112, Il-114 and others in the pipeline.

Russia inherited most of the Soviet air fleet. Full of still very capable aircraft. That can be cheaply modernized and refurbished in many cases to serve for another decade or 2 more, rather than have to build all new models.

China on the other hand had to deal with with a fleet dating back to 50s-era designs; indigenzied versions of the An-12, An-24 and so on. And the only thing heavier than those they had were some Il-76s they imported in the 90s and 2000s. So of course their only real choice is to procure a large amount of new aircraft from scratch.

No, what i ment was that China does not order just old designs from Ukraine or Russia, but that they are developing and building thier own modern fleet.

flamming_python wrote:They're expensive and not a priority for Russia, simple as that.Especially as Russia's main doctrine right now is control of its coastal waters and countering the American navy in the Atlantic. Smaller ships and investments into anti-ship missiles do fine for that.

But the destroyers will come. Slavas/Udaloys/Sovremennys/Kirovs can't last forever.

Yeah, i would not give much hope for those replacement. As things are going right now i dont think we be seing any new russian destroyers before 2030. Also remember Russia is not famous for getting navy vessles finished in any hurry.

flamming_python wrote:The Chinese seem to be in a hurry to rush the 5th-gen aircraft out. Russia isn't.

And yet they also bought a party of Su-35s not long ago and are now talking about buying another party.

What do they need the Su-35 for if the J-20 is already superior in every respect?

The J-20 is just following the rest of the timetable for the general PLA. Why woudnt a fighter be in service 7 years after its first flight?As for the Su-35 its hard to say, yes China could be wanting the tech for developing thier own fighters, but i think u really cant compare Su-35 and the J-20. The Su-35 is more of a air superiority fighter and the J-20 probably more of an stealth interceptor aircraft. But so far none really knows.

People, for what I know Russia and China are supposed to be not just friends but somewhat even allies.So why end up in such a sort of male reproductive organ measurement context?They both have ambitious and wide range investment plans and both have to deals with hurdles and drawbacks.In many cases they get to solve them in brillant ways. In others they face difficulties.Still every time one succeed in smthg, it helps also the other in their shared goal of building a multipolar security system, in opposition to the actual unipolar one.

Each destroyer China build, every S-400 Russia deploy is a step forward in this direction so please .

marcellogo wrote:People, for what I know Russia and China are supposed to be not just friends but somewhat even allies.So why end up in such a sort of male reproductive organ measurement context?

Damn Italians they always want peace and good food for tutti

Hole wrote: You are absolutely right, Kimppis. Each and every month the "economic problems" in Russia are back. Most western countries would love to have this "problems". Low debt. Lot of money in reserve. Lot of Gold. Resources in abundance.

walle to me looks like tries to prove that Russia was dead some time and now is even deader

walle83 wrote:Russia has been delaying the Su-57 for years now. First it was 2015, then it was 2016...now they are talking about 2019? Becouse the lack of 5th generation engines?

The original plan was to offer them around 2015-2016 (and yes by then it was already a semi-mature design that could in principle be introduced into serial production) with the 4th-gen engines, with the 5th-gen ones being earmarked for 2020 abouts.

The RuAF evaluated it however and said that without the 5th-gen engines, it doesn't offer too much that the Su-35 doesn't offer; while costing a whole lot more.

You can see the same story with the Mi-38; a project which was around since the 90s, ready for production in the early 2000s - even when the partnership with the Europeans dissolved it wasn't a big hurdle. The main thing is that the RuAF had a look at it and said "you know this aircraft is great and everything, but the newest modifications of the Mi-17 series offer 95% of what it does, while costing only a fraction of the price".

And so as a result the Mi-38 has kept in limbo up until present time (and fully domestic engines have only become available for it very recently); last year I believe it was certified and has slowly entered production - I believe the RuAF is now wanting to trial a small batch before it decides its fate.

Well i would say becouse of the lack of cash. Lack of money leads to slow development that leads to things getting delayed, leading to fewer and fewer airframes getting orderd.

You can say whatever you desire.

But yes I guess it is a lack of cash. If the RuAF is not willing to order it and prefers to spend money instead on products that give it more value for the same amount of dough then I guess that counts doesn't it?

flamming_python wrote:Thats not really a fair comparisment. China and the US have no need for small corvettes with longe range missiles. They are filling thier navies with larger vessels for a different kind of warfare. As for the 22800 it feels more of a panic replacement for the project 11356. When Ukraine stoped selling them engines for the larger vessels they had go small.China probably could add long range missiles to their Type-056 corvettes if they wanted to, but its no need when they already have the larger frigates and destroyers doing that job.

So then what are you ragging on the Russians for? The Russians have developed the vessels they need, the Chinese the vessels they need.Developing a blue-water navy is not a huge priority for Russia right now. It's still focused on the ex-Soviet space and the Middle East.

If Russia developed a blue-water doctrine then I'm sure as it focused the nation's efforts on reviving Soviet military might it surely would succeed and would rebuild the navy and shipyards pretty good.But doing so is not cost-effective and is rather wasteful. Other aspects of the nation's military capabilities will also have to go on the back-burner. What will that blue-water navy give it right now? Strategic weapons, cruise and anti-ship missiles and new air defence systems pay far more dividends. The priority of Russia is countering NATO and the US Navy. It has to allocate its resources smartly. To a large extent, it can't afford the extravagances enjoyed by the Soviet Union which had a buffer of loyal Warsaw Pact allies in Europe.

Russia right now is building up new shipyards and reviving old ones. Shipyards in the Crimea that until 2014 were flapping around like fish on the beach are now revived and fulfilling orders. The one in Vladivostok is on its way too or already built; I believe Sevmash is also being expanded.A new floating NPP has just been built in St. Petersburg; nuclear icebreakers before that. Civil stuff, but pretty large ships and with nuclear reactors. And built on time. Why can't they build a destroyer if they really want one?The Mistral sections were being built on time too.There are definitely successes in Russian shipbuilding to point to.Subs are being built on time now.If destroyers aren't being built and the Gorshkov or Ivan Gren or Lada sub are still undergoing trials then that just says that maybe the Russian navy lost interest in these projects and are looking at something else, and is just using the ships of these classes as experimental vessels to try different stuff with.Frigates, landing/helicopter ships and new-gen diesel subs are all things Russia needs, but I guess it has some room for maneuver in all these aspects for now, and is aiming to get things right before committing to serial production.

Lider destroyers are something that are very necessary but there is no huge rush for them. Especially with the revival of the 2nd Kirov class cruiser and potential modernization of Udaloys/Sovremennys. Get 2-3 Liders under the hammer by the early-2020s, then maybe a couple more by the late 2020s.

flamming_python wrote:Yeah, i would not give much hope for those replacement. As things are going right now i dont think we be seing any new russian destroyers before 2030. Also remember Russia is not famous for getting navy vessles finished in any hurry.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

flamming_python wrote:The J-20 is just following the rest of the timetable for the general PLA. Why woudnt a fighter be in service 7 years after its first flight?

Perhaps because they don't produce Su-35s themselves; so for all intents and purposes the J-20 is their best in every way domestically.

As for the Su-35 its hard to say, yes China could be wanting the tech for developing thier own fighters, but i think u really cant compare Su-35 and the J-20. The Su-35 is more of a air superiority fighter and the J-20 probably more of an stealth interceptor aircraft. But so far none really knows.

It's not hard to say. I'll tell you what they're interested in. The radar and the engines. To some extent maybe the missiles too.What that says to me is that the J-20 is a 5th-gen aircraft but with some decidedly 4th-gen technologies; to the extent that the Russian MoD in the same position wouldn't acquire it, they would insist on 5th-gen engines as they are doing now, probably 3D TVC, more sensors and so on too.

US military spending includes support for 800 foreign bases and colonial patrolling with aircraft carrier fleets that have zero military value against anyserious "enemy". That is a lot of money that is not going into America's alleged wunderwaffen. It is at least 1/3 of the whole US military budget.

Any analysis that does not use PPP is not worth fly sh*t. But even PPP underestimates the actual size of the Russian military in its economy.PPP is calculated with civilian sector products and services. The price of Project 636.3 submarines is not part of the evaluation. In terms of a true military PPP, Russia is closer to 1:6 rather than 1:3 when evaluating in nominal dollars. So $46 billion x 6 = $276 billion. The US budgetin comparable terms is $700 billion x 0.6667 = $467 billion.

So America's budget is bigger but not by 700/46=15 times.

As for American innovation. That is some sort of myth. Nothing the US has produced during WWII, during the cold war or today stands out asa singular entity in the world. That is not to say that America has nothing or makes nothing. But all the dick stroking about how vastly betterit is than Russia is pure BS. Give a single system that fills the role of wunderwaffen. Don't even try to start with the F-22 or its pointlessrail guns. America has only now tendered for a supersonic anti-ship missile system. After it basically got cornered by Russia.

Plus everybody should keep in mind that without the "dynamic duo" Gorbatchev/Jelzin there would have been a match to the F-22 back in the 90`s. And today Russia would have seven or eight aircraft carriers.

The cost of national security and law enforcement will grow from year to year - in 2018 they will amount to 2.105 trillion rubles, in 2019 - 2.182 trillion rubles, in 2020, 2.256 trillion rubles, in 2021 - 2.320 trillion rubles.

Are there any sources talking about allocation of the defense expenditure (not necessarily defense budget) with regards to how much percent goes to personnel, how much to operations, to maintenance, to procurement, to R&D and so on? I've never ever stumbled onto anything like that...