Why is the Federation so dumb?

We don't know what the Romulans gave up on their end of the deal. For all we know, it was to further develop those super-powerful plasma torpedoes they used in "Balance of Terror" against the Federation.

As it is, it's not such a bad deal. The Feds stop developing cloaks of their own, but they can still develop anti-cloaking sensors which would render cloaking useless (especially since cloaking takes away shields and weapons).

The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway in return for a peace. That seems like a fair trade to me.

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Yeah this. Or a variation of this. Perhaps both parties gave up something neither were going to use anyway, with the other unaware. Both ambassadors laughed their way back to their respective homeworlds.

The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway in return for a peace. That seems like a fair trade to me.

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Yeah this. Or a variation of this. Perhaps both parties gave up something neither were going to use anyway, with the other unaware. Both ambassadors laughed their way back to their respective homeworlds.

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Stealth/cloak is a major strategic/tactical advantage in both war and cold war - even if it's far from perfect: witness today's stealth technology.

Not using it when the other side has the technology is equivalent to suicide AKA stupidity.

The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...

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Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, simply raising the ship's deflector prevented the Enterprise from being detected on radar. And that just deflectors. Janeway used a type of cloaking device to penetrate a Borg unimatrix.

If a cloaking device can be used during an attack on the Borg, imagine how many lives could have been saved at Wolf359.

Starfleet could have used hundreds (or thousands) of cloaking devices in their long war against the Cardassians, shorting the war, and saving lives. Ending the war with a surrender, not a treaty. None of those border colonies would have gone to the Cardassians.

This would have also put the Federation in a position afterwards to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Something they likely couldn't do with a active war in progress.

Keep in mind that from a Federation perspective, their new Klingon allies can develop cloaking devices perfectly fine. If some Federation scientists just happen to assist them, and the Klingons just happen to share their technical data for the purposes of anti-cloaking sensor research, then it would result in a situation where the Federation would not have immediate access to cloaking technology but could deploy it very quickly should the treaty with the Romulans ever break down.

Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.

Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.

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Guess it depends on what version of the Borg you mean. The TNG Borg who can analyze and adapt or the VOY Borg who can't blow their nose unless they assimilate someone who knows how.

Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.

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In hindsight, the Federation adopting a more militant and less exploratory posture earlier could be a good thing. It took Wolf 359 before the Federation seemed to take defense seriously. A quasi war with the Cardassians would've ended in surrender instead of a peace treaty that only guaranteed the next war. The Federation would've been more ready for the Borg... and the Dominion.

The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...

Click to expand...

Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, simply raising the ship's deflector prevented the Enterprise from being detected on radar. And that just deflectors. Janeway used a type of cloaking device to penetrate a Borg unimatrix.

If a cloaking device can be used during an attack on the Borg, imagine how many lives could have been saved at Wolf359.

Starfleet could have used hundreds (or thousands) of cloaking devices in their long war against the Cardassians, shorting the war, and saving lives. Ending the war with a surrender, not a treaty. None of those border colonies would have gone to the Cardassians.

This would have also put the Federation in a position afterwards to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Something they likely couldn't do with a active war in progress.

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Didn't the Romulans loan the Federation the cloaking device that the Defiant used, though it was only supposed to be used in the Gamma Quadrant.

The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...

Click to expand...

Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, simply raising the ship's deflector prevented the Enterprise from being detected on radar. And that just deflectors. Janeway used a type of cloaking device to penetrate a Borg unimatrix.

If a cloaking device can be used during an attack on the Borg, imagine how many lives could have been saved at Wolf359.

Starfleet could have used hundreds (or thousands) of cloaking devices in their long war against the Cardassians, shorting the war, and saving lives. Ending the war with a surrender, not a treaty. None of those border colonies would have gone to the Cardassians.

This would have also put the Federation in a position afterwards to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Something they likely couldn't do with a active war in progress.

Click to expand...

Didn't the Romulans loan the Federation the cloaking device that the Defiant used, though it was only supposed to be used in the Gamma Quadrant.

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That was a one time exception and was in exchange for all Federation intelligence on the Gamma Quadrant so both sides benefited there. Kinda wish they kept the Seska Romulan around T'Rul I think her name was.

Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.

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In hindsight, the Federation adopting a more militant and less exploratory posture earlier could be a good thing. It took Wolf 359 before the Federation seemed to take defense seriously. A quasi war with the Cardassians would've ended in surrender instead of a peace treaty that only guaranteed the next war. The Federation would've been more ready for the Borg... and the Dominion.

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or a war with the rommies could have ended in defeat for the federation and the lose of earth?

Ok so I'm rewatching "Pegasus" from TNG and wondering why...WHY would the Federation agree to a treaty where they aren't allowed to explore the possibility and technology of cloaking? ... Anyone have any ideas?

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It never made sense. I think the writers put that into "Pegasus" just to create an instance of drama without regard to the bigger picture as such it created a fixed-point of unilateral idiocy. Thank God for "Deep Space Nine!"

Fortunately, RDM and others introduced Section-31 that kind of retcons the stupidty introduced in "Pegasus" (an otherwise great episode) by allowing those who wish to say the Federation agreed to such pollyannaish terms because they knew it would ultimately be ignored by some covert factions within Starfleet.

Third Nacelle said:

This may sound a bit Roddenberrian of me, but I don't think even without the treaty, that cloaking technology is something the Federation would seek anyway. It's dishonest trickery, and that's not how the Federation works.

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I strongly disagree. Cloaking technology would have non-military applications such as scientific investigations of pre-warp civilations to name but one. Also, R&D and invention are not always linear processes so to comply with such a stupid provision who knows how many other avenues of research had to be curtailed?

It is one thing to say one won't implement a cloaking device, but it is something terrible to say one won't even pursue tech that would allow themselves to detect a cloaked ship or item, thereby, protect themselves.

Another point to ponder, what if the Pegasus had succeeded and how might that have helped the Federation at Wolf-359? Or how much more advanced would Starfleet ships have been when defending themselves from the Dominion?

Fortunately, RDM and others introduced Section-31 that kind of retcons the stupidty introduced in "Pegasus" (an otherwise great episode) by allowing those who wish to say the Federation agreed to such pollyannaish terms because they knew it would ultimately be ignored by some covert factions within Starfleet.

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Actually, Ron Moore wrote The Pegasus. Although he did write two DS9 episodes to feature Section 31, it was created by Bradley Thompson and David Weddle with input from Ira Steven Behr.

Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.

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Guess it depends on what version of the Borg you mean. The TNG Borg who can analyze and adapt or the VOY Borg who can't blow their nose unless they assimilate someone who knows how.

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You know, I still don't get how folks keep thinking the "They don't learn without assimilation" thing didn't apply to the TNG Borg too. Because that's exactly what happened in their TNG appearances. Difference was, the TNG folks acted more scared of them then they really should've been (they knew there was worse than the Borg out there, and they'd faced worse than the Borg).

It never made sense. I think the writers put that into "Pegasus" just to create an instance of drama without regard to the bigger picture as such it created a fixed-point of unilateral idiocy. Thank God for "Deep Space Nine!"

Fortunately, RDM and others introduced Section-31 that kind of retcons the stupidty introduced in "Pegasus" (an otherwise great episode) by allowing those who wish to say the Federation agreed to such pollyannaish terms because they knew it would ultimately be ignored by some covert factions within Starfleet.

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Like I said, we don't know what the Romulans themselves gave up in return. Probably they lost just as much an advantage to their side.

Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.

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Is the stealth technology of today perfect? Of course not - far from it, actually. It still is a MAJOR strategic/tactical advantage.

Cloak is not perfect - but can fool 24th century sensors far better than stealth can fool radar.
The dominion can see through it - but they have to search thoroughly first; and that is in ideal conditions - not in the heat of battle, around some nebula/other sensor-distorting phenomena, etc.

Cloak remains a massive advantage and renouncing it - even the means to see through it - remains suicidally idiotic.

Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.

Click to expand...

In hindsight, the Federation adopting a more militant and less exploratory posture earlier could be a good thing. It took Wolf 359 before the Federation seemed to take defense seriously. A quasi war with the Cardassians would've ended in surrender instead of a peace treaty that only guaranteed the next war. The Federation would've been more ready for the Borg... and the Dominion.

Click to expand...

or a war with the rommies could have ended in defeat for the federation and the lose of earth?

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The treaty of Algeron - which is, practically, appeasement of the romulans* - only ensured that the war will be fought a few decades into the future - AND that the chances the federation has of winning it are substantially smaller.

Whoever signed it condemned his/her grandchildren to bleed and die - and severely increased the chances of slavery under the romulans for the species of the federation. For this, he/she was probably hailed as a hero. Politics.

*Anyone can see (TOS, TNG) that the romulans are violently aggressive towards the federation, having no interest in a lasting peace with it.