I don't think it's a "Metal" problem, considering trans people aren't widely accepted by A LOT of people, regardless of what musical subcultures they may or may not belong to.

Pretty much. Acceptance is great, but transsexuality just isn't something specifically relevant to metal at this time at all really. A few musicians, sure, but not a lot, and you don't get many publicized stories that would cause an outrage about it or anything. With that said yeah, of course - they should be treated with respect just like anyone else.

There seems to be a bit much people who are against this. To be honest I don't see why it would be anyone else's business if someone was TG or otherwise. People can do whatever they want to their own bodies and no one has any right to say otherwise as long as it does not affect anyone else.

I can honestly say I've never given it any consideration. I'm sure there are bands out there with trans members, but I don't know any. I'm gay, I've never encountered genuine, earnest homophobia. While I can safely say that myself and none of the metalheads amongst my friends would be opposed to a band with a transexual member based solely on that, I don't know every metalhead in the world. Sure there are thoughtful, liberal types in metal, but there's frothing at the gills xenophobes too. Same can be said about almost any subculture.

What I like about the metal scene is that it's full of weird looking people, expressing themselves through their hair, clothes, piercings, tattoos. Metal is for everyone, if you say TS people shouldn't be playing on stage or in a club, then aren't you no better than the people in society who automatically prejudice against a metal head with tatty clothes and tattoos? - like I've experienced from time to time? (always from well off, professional, folk with large cars and houses; and who knows what you may find up in their attic or in the basement).

If your not hurting anyone physically or mentally you should have the right to dress/look however you please, and expect to walk down the street un-molested or gawped at.

MetalMetalsMan: No one knows what Sammy is better than Sammy (or perhaps Sammy in therapy).

Politically correct nonsense.

He's male (XY chromosomes), he was born in the Dominican Republic, and he's of African descent. There is no debate to be had on that. These are facts, not opinions (such as whether or not he's an overrated baseball player or not).

But I would like to see your views become adopted worldwide; just out of curiosity. No longer would there be an "all male draft" in countries, all bathrooms would be unisex, no more scholarships would be based on gender or race. Why? Because people would just pick what gender or race they are from time to time. And if anyone questions them, they will be called "intolerant."

I can see why you would say it was PC nonsense, but it isn't. I don't have much care for PC, and my opinions are not based in something so threatening to free speech. Basically I'm saying that you're as ignorant as to the reasons as I am, I just have a more patient and reasonable view of the response. If you're going to argue with a trans person, be my guest. You won't convince them they're wrong, because they know very well what their genitals look like. That's why they know better than you. They're the one living in the body, dude, not you.

That's why they call it dysmorphia. The brain is telling the person something that the rest of the biology isn't. It's a very confusing and disorienting thing and it isn't as simple as "look at your crotch, bro!". I'm cis as all hell, so I can't relate. But I will do my best to help my trans friends feel more comfortable in their ill-fitting man-suits because it really doesn't matter to me what they think they are or what they want to be called. Besides, for some people it's just a phase. Other people have a very serious problem with the disparity and need to reorganize the biology (which the all-powerful chromosomes can only do so much to prevent) so that the visual picture matches with the psychological one.

Frankly, I'd rather call everyone "it", but I'd get no end of grief for that.

edit: from a certain perspective, I can't really imagine why those with lives and minds of metal wouldn't be able to see some of themselves in the trans dilemma. Metal is, from a certain point of view, a haven for the outcast and the breaker of traditional roles and rules, and a place for the frustrated and disjointed weirdo with a perspective that jars with the majority. We're going to be what we are and no one can tell us different, and I'm gonna give the square the finger. When you look at yourself, do you see a "national citizen beholden to the code of his inherited culture" or do you see you as only you know yourself to be? A changeable and somewhat confusing and evolving thing without every piece of yourself in a neat little box?

Grave_Wyrm's most recent comment also hits on the fact that sex and gender are different concepts. Unless I have misunderstood their positions, I think both samekh and MetalMetalsMan have made the mistake of conflating these separate terms.

Grave_Wyrm's most recent comment also hits on the fact that sex and gender are different concepts. Unless I have misunderstood their positions, I think both samekh and MetalMetalsMan have made the mistake of conflating these separate terms.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Sex is biological and, indeed, cannot be altered. However, gender is something culturally learned, and, as the World Health Organization puts it, "[it] refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women" and that "'masculine' and 'feminine' are gender categories." So naturally, it can be altered based on the predisposition of the person in question.

Also, a ridiculously truncated Google search lead me to Bralalalala. Anyone have any knowledge of this group (or person, rather)?

A confusion made even worse when people use the term "trans", but don't specify transgender or transsexual. (edit: though considering the title of this thread, its use here is fairly easily construed.)

Can you say anything even resembling a logical reason that justifies your dislike of transsexual people?

I didn't really think I had to seeing as how its my opinion but if seeing as how you asked, I will answer. In order to avoid confusion, I will base my reasons on the male to female TS.

If you're born a man, this is what you are, changing your gender via operation (in my view) doesn't mean you're going to be a woman. You're still genetically male, you will never be able to give birth nor will you ever have a period. Believing that you are now female doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Another reason (and this is more a personal reason) I dislike them is because I kind of think it's disgusting that this "woman" was once a man and now he still looks like a man, sounds like a man. I know there are some who don't.

You can call me homophobic (but for your info I have nothing against gay people) if you wish (I don't really care) but I have met gay people who harbour my views, I even met one gay guy who disliked cross dressers because he believed they were "mocking gays".

There, good. I don't agree at all with your opinion, but at least it's not purely ignorant bigot-bullshit. I do get the gay dude being ashamed of the behavior shown by other members of the LGTB community though. For instance, I find gay pride parades, in most cases, to be very distasteful (and I have heard first hand testimonies of homosexuals stating the same). Sure, it's great that you want to show pride for coming out of the closet, considering intolerance towards homosexuality is still rampant these days, and you have all the right to..... Uh..... Well, fight for your rights. Rubbing yourself against half naked people in public places while covered in oil isn't a way to do that though, and it's quite detrimental to your cause, seeing how it turns your quest for respect in an (ironic) caricature. We get it; you have the right to fuck whoever you want, but don't rub it in people's faces. Normal human beings don't do that.

_________________

Nochielo wrote:

Crick wrote:

Years from now, no one will remember Gandhi. They will speak only of Fenriz.

I think trans sexuality is generally very acceptable in metal, more so than any other genre. Metal values aesthetics highly, and certain sub-genres have a large emphasis on the aesthetics. To most people outside of the metal realm, long hair, high pitched vocals, tight clothing are examples of what would be considered feminine in society. So in my opinion, male to female transsexualism is theoretically more likely to occur amongst metal fans than other genres.

Now personally, I accept all individuals regardless of their sexual preference, and preference for genitalia. However, one of my biggest fears (aside from alien abduction, brain transplantation, robot conversions) is being physically tricked by a transsexual. As laughable as that may seem, I have read and heard stories about trans gender women coercing men into having sex with them. Post surgical methods can truly make a male convincingly female. Whether or not this person is considered female is up to debate. However, I personally am extremely uncomfortable having sexual relations with an artificially constructed orifice. I do not approve of surgically created women that are secretive about their past. Some men are likely to be fine with their partner being a former male. However, I would most likely not be, and it is not acceptable for post op men (women?) to trick unsuspecting individuals.

But generally speaking, the metal genre welcomes all biological entities and there is absolutely no life form that would be considered unacceptable. I personally do not advocate trans-gender surgery though. I feel that surgery should be restricted to those in need of medical attention. I think it's wrong that a perfectly normal health looking individual like Keith Kaputo, spent an egregious sum of money to achieve a more feminine form. Even after surgery, he's not a convincing woman and I believe that he could have come to terms with his physical body.

Last edited by rabidmadman on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

A confusion made even worse when people use the term "trans", but don't specify transgender or transsexual. (edit: though considering the title of this thread, its use here is fairly easily construed.)

I'm telling ya. Call everyone "it" and this problem just goes away.

I think most transgender people would be upset if you called them "it".

I find nothing wrong with Transeuals, or Transexuals in reguards to metal. I don't recall there ever being an orientation requirement for music.

On a partly related note, while I have no problem with the whole LGBT etc. community, I do have to say I find some of the attitudes from that community to be a little hypocritical. Particularly the fact that they are so furious in the pursuit for tolerance, demanding that they be accepted becuse they're different from the norm, but at the same time, the majority are extremely intolerant towards anyone who doesn't agree with their lifestyle, even if the disagreement is civilized.

_________________One part the Führer, one part the Pope

inhumanist wrote:

"Fuck you, little Omar. Your school got reduced to rubble by an IDF missile, but Allah still gives you hope you say? Well that's just because you've never played Grand Theft Auto you little shit."

You can call me homophobic (but for your info I have nothing against gay people) if you wish (I don't really care) but I have met gay people who harbour my views, I even met one gay guy who disliked cross dressers because he believed they were "mocking gays".

Transphobia is not the same thing as homophobia though. Transgender is not the same thing as homosexual, and transvestite is another thing again! Sure, many transgender people will cross dress (relative to their birth-assigned gender) and of course there are many highly-visible homosexual drag queens, but as far as I know the majority of transvestites (in the UK at least) identify as cis and hetero. The point I'm trying to make is only that all of these things are different and although for some they may overlap, for many they do not. It's important not to conflate these things or assume things about people!

Also, it's been said in the thread already but I think it bears repeating-- sex and gender should be considered separately. Your sex is what your chromosomes say you are. Gender is more of a social construct and our gender roles are surprisingly flexible. You don't have to delve into the past far at all to find examples of things being seen as masculine or feminine that are not seen so today. However, I think any transgender person will agree that gender is not 100% social either, as for them there appears to be an inherent element. The stance of many radical feminists is that gender's 100% social, but this breaks down when transgender people are considered. I don't know if there's any "right answer" to this issue. I think it's important to try to be tolerant though. Everybody's different and nobody knows what a person is feeling better than they do themselves. I salute people who have the courage to be true to themselves despite the social stigma that they are so sadly subjected to!

I've never minded homosexuality but i was not sure how i would react to meeting a transsexual irl. The concept itself never bothered me but it could still somehow bother me.Fairly recently i met one, and while she was a bitch i do consider her a she and nothing else. Her bitchiness had nothing to do with being transgender if anything it might have been a coping mechanism. Her bf was a cool bloke tho.

It's important to note that even sex, at least in the way it is defined as separate from gender, is a rather flawed concept. Having a penis and even having XY chromosomes does not mean your 'sex' is male. Similarly, gender is not strictly a social construct--it is also proven to be an innate biological thing in terms of the development of the brain. A lot of folks here are repeating trans 101 concepts that have been proven to be oversimplified. Similarly, Grave_Wyrm, you've been on the ball here about a lot of trans concepts but referring to everyone as 'it' is fundamentally dehumanizing--referring to people as 'it' who are already routinely dehumanized (like trans people) is even worse. I get where you're coming from and how you reached this conclusion but it's not a correct one.

Also, I'm going to say this once and once only: if you think trans people are an abomination or 'confused' or 'fucked up', I seriously suggest you get out of this thread right now because you are NOT contributing anything new to this thread. Same goes for anyone who wants to come in here to talk about their porn fetishes or who refer to trans people, especially trans women, as 'trannies'. This forum has had problem with these discussions before and I personally would prefer that we avoid having them again.

TL;DR: if you can't be maintain a baseline of respectfulness toward trans people, get out of this thread.

It's very relevant. I'd like to have an explanation for ORTAB's insane statement. She can't just go around making statements like that and expect everybody to just eat it up. Did you actually read what she wrote? I repeat:

Before this goes into flame war territory, I just want to make an analogy. Phantom limb syndrome is a well-known phenomenon wherein the body's reality isn't agreed to by the brain. The brain works according to its own rules that aren't necessarily in synch with what EVERY OTHER SENSE will attest to. Why? because neurons are stubborn, stubborn things. In an odd kind of way, the body and the brain aren't in complete accord, so the chromosomes might be dictating one thing, while the brain has a whole other picture of what's going on. This analogy continues into body modification which, just like the mirror and the other hand trick, the excruciating cramps and sensory hallucinations of phantom limb can be relieved once the sensory picture and the brain's picture finally come close to matching.

If your brain is damaged, your personality can change entirely. The architecture of one's brain, the perception of themselves, and what they identify with speaks WAY louder than what their DNA has fashioned their body to look like.

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:

you've been on the ball here about a lot of trans concepts but referring to everyone as 'it' is fundamentally dehumanizing--referring to people as 'it' who are already routinely dehumanized (like trans people) is even worse. I get where you're coming from and how you reached this conclusion but it's not a correct one.

It's also not a completely serious one, either. Of course I graciously take your point, m'lady.

That said, I don't champion humanity as a concept, honestly, but dehumanizing (or neutralizing) language doesn't mean I want anyone's privacy or well-being infringed on or that I think they deserve less respect in general. We've still all got to live side by side, no matter what organism we are. Basically I feel that if someone's working to not be discriminated against, they don't necessarily deserve special treatment as a result. It's better for everyone if people are generally patient and civil, though, because that improves the general quality of life; it's not something I do "because they're human". I'm very kind to cats and plants, as an example. Neutrality can do a lot to ensure equality, or at least peace, but naturally I don't think "it" is a particularly workable solution, no.

I mean .. I've called Klansmen "compost people", so .. just a bit of context there.

Actually, I shouldn't make any false assumptions about that person's body, but 'she' was raised as a girl, is XY and sees herself more somewhere inbetween, if I understood 'her' correctly. I think it's important to note that gender identity isn't binary.

_________________

Metantoine wrote:

If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

CorpseFister wrote:

Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

Having a penis and even having XY chromosomes does not mean your 'sex' is male.

I'd like to see some evidence to support this claim. You know what that is, "evidence"? The thing you're supposed to provide when you make absolutely insane statements like that?

I'll present you with a few wikipedia pages discussing various known chromosomal and 'sex' pairings and I invite you to read them and their sources, as well as do a little bit of googling on your own. Thanks for the assumption that I was just pulling this out of my ass though...