Nothing seems to rile up the masses more than these two topics. As a result you can only talk about either in here. this forum will not be moderated, however if it gets really ugly you can report a post

It sure looks likes a tax grab. The costs are sure to go up, but many people will be hard pressed to find the savings and figure out if they are real to them.

Gas is too expensive now! I've heard it repeated over and over, and Dion's program will only make it worse. This is a sore point for a lot of Canadians right now and Dion is going to pushing hard right on an open wound.

Who supports it? Green urbanites in major centres who have access to decent public transport. I would think that this is a limited appeal target market.

Who opposes it? Likely most car owners, all rural inhabitants, and likely a large group in the important "905" territory. In the oil producing regions of the country this has already been labelled as the "new NEP". Last week, with the GM truck shutdown in the news, Buzz Hargrove called on the government to lower gas prices to support auto workers. I haven't heard him comment directly on this proposal by Dion, but I rather suspect that Buzz won't be out campaigning for Dion next time around.

Bureacracy runs wild. My concern here is the bureaucracy needed to implement this plan. This appears to me to be big government running amuck. How much time an effort are going to be included in slapping tariffs on products from foreign countries that don't have a carbon tax? How much time and effort is going to be put into patrolling the balances and off-sets that are supposed to occur.

In the final analysis, I think Dion has made a major error. There are previous quotes from him stating that he opposes a carbon tax, and now he wants to implement a 15 billion dollar one. His sense of timing is terrible, and I don't think he has the clout within the Liberal Party to sell his vision thru a slate of candidates, especially when it will be attacked from both the left and the right.

Last edited by jaxon on Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think the Liberal strategists see this as a great strategy to get Dion out the door - let him die on this sword then get the proper replacement for the next election. So they're keeping their mouths shut and won't say anything till he loses the next election.

Only in Canada would a federal government in power hurt one region of the country to garner votes in another. This plays well down east in Ontario & Quebec where all the votes are. Punish Alberta. Dion's plan won't create jobs in southern Ontario but boy, oh boy, it'll sure make people down east happy the Liberals screwed the economy in Alberta.
NEP 2 under the Liberals here we come.

iso_55 wrote:Only in Canada would a federal government in power hurt one region of the country to garner votes in another. This plays well down east in Ontario & Quebec where all the votes are. Punish Alberta. Dion's plan won't create jobs in southern Ontario but boy, oh boy, it'll sure make people down east happy the Liberals screwed the economy in Alberta.
NEP 2 under the Liberals here we come.

Are you really that obtuse to think that people in Ontario are going to be happy to see gas prices increase under a carbon tax? Get off the martyr of the West high horse and give your a head a shake, this does not play well in Ontario and I imagine it plays even worse in Quebec where gas prices are already about 12 cents a litre more than they are in Ontario. All voters here in Ontario are not out to get you westerners, if you truly believe this then I suggest you put more tin foil inside your hat and on your windows. True to your nature though iso - you do anything and everything to alienate people from the east and wrap it up in the 'we are so persecuted by the east' mentality. When are you going to realize that this is one big *frig* country and we should be working together to try to have it firing on all cylinders instead of saying screw you to fellow Canadians.

Lerriuqs wrote:I think the Liberal strategists see this as a great strategy to get Dion out the door - let him die on this sword then get the proper replacement for the next election. So they're keeping their mouths shut and won't say anything till he loses the next election.

Man you are soooooh right about the iggy/rae strategy to oust "Citron Dion". Here hoping dumb-assed Canadians don't buy into the bogus green wrapping paper.

iso_55 wrote:Only in Canada would a federal government in power hurt one region of the country to garner votes in another. This plays well down east in Ontario & Quebec where all the votes are. Punish Alberta. Dion's plan won't create jobs in southern Ontario but boy, oh boy, it'll sure make people down east happy the Liberals screwed the economy in Alberta.
NEP 2 under the Liberals here we come.

Are you really that obtuse to think that people in Ontario are going to be happy to see gas prices increase under a carbon tax? Get off the martyr of the West high horse and give your a head a shake, this does not play well in Ontario and I imagine it plays even worse in Quebec where gas prices are already about 12 cents a litre more than they are in Ontario. All voters here in Ontario are not out to get you westerners, if you truly believe this then I suggest you put more tin foil inside your hat and on your windows. True to your nature though iso - you do anything and everything to alienate people from the east and wrap it up in the 'we are so persecuted by the east' mentality. When are you going to realize that this is one big *frig* country and we should be working together to try to have it firing on all cylinders instead of saying screw you to fellow Canadians.

Impressive language coming from you Cattsuck. However many, many people out here in Alberta think your words ring hollow. Including myself. I have seen federal governments at work in the past making political decisions to benefit Eastern Canada at the expense of the West.
In 1968, the Air Canada overhaul base was moved from Winnipeg to Montreal resulting in job losses in Winnipeg.
In 1986, Bombardier of M ontreal got the CF-18 maintenance contract in a monumental political decision at the time over Boeing of Winnipeg by the federal Tories. Brian Mulroney even admitted back then that the decision to give the contract to Bombardier was totally political even though Boeing's tender was lower than Bombardier. That one decision led to the formation of the Reform party from strong feelings of western alienation & disgruntlement. That one decision changed the landscape of this country (politically) forever.
The National Energy Policy was a tax grab by the federal Liberals back in 1980 & hurt Alberta for years until it was disbanded in 1990. Billions of dollars that should have stayed in Alberta instead flowed to Ottawa resulting in thousands of job losses here.
I was living in Winnipeg at the time of the introduction of the NEP but people I know in the oil patch out here have talked about those dark times. Literally overnight when the NEP came into being, people were laid off & companies closed. Homeowners walked into banks in Calgary & handed the keys to their house over unable to pay their mortgages. People committed suicides. Unemployment rose. As did the growing hatred & mistrust for anything Ottawa.
Until federal politicians & people who live outside of Alberta quit looking at our province & the oil revenue we generate as a cash cow for the taking, we will never work together to build this country as you so poignantly suggest that we do. How can we in Alberta help build this country any more than we already have when we can't trust federal politicians to do the right thing & not rape us?
The National Energy Policy is still well remembered. The Liberals are still universally hated for what they did to Alberta nearly 30 years ago. Now we have to deal with a proposed Liberal carbon tax aimed directly at our oilsands from another federal Liberal leader in Stephan Dion which will kill jobs & investment in this province??? There is a growing fear of what will happen to Alberta if the Liberals actually win the next federal election. People are concerned.
And still cattsuck... you don't get why federal politicians (especially Liberals) are hated so much out here & why people with everything to lose because of this carbon tax look suspiciously sideways at anything coming from down east.
The carbon tax Dion proposals won't kill jobs or the provincial economies in Ontario & Quebec. People out here think that carbon tax wil make a lot of people down east happy because once again, Ottawa gets to sock it to Alberta. The carbon tax will kill the Alberta economy to be sure. But that just doesn't seem to matter, does it?
So yeah, go ahead... keep talking about how we should be such one great happy & unified country while Liberal politicians from Ontario & Quebec bring in draconian measures like this aimed solely at the revenues from the Alberta oilsands. Wrap yourself in the flag.
A Stephan Dion carbon tax will help to certainly spew an anger from Alberta the rest of Canada will never have experienced before. That, I can guarantee. You may not want to hear it... but oh well, that's life.

iso_55 wrote:Only in Canada would a federal government in power hurt one region of the country to garner votes in another. This plays well down east in Ontario & Quebec where all the votes are. Punish Alberta. Dion's plan won't create jobs in southern Ontario but boy, oh boy, it'll sure make people down east happy the Liberals screwed the economy in Alberta.
NEP 2 under the Liberals here we come.

Are you really that obtuse to think that people in Ontario are going to be happy to see gas prices increase under a carbon tax? Get off the martyr of the West high horse and give your a head a shake, this does not play well in Ontario and I imagine it plays even worse in Quebec where gas prices are already about 12 cents a litre more than they are in Ontario. All voters here in Ontario are not out to get you westerners, if you truly believe this then I suggest you put more tin foil inside your hat and on your windows. True to your nature though iso - you do anything and everything to alienate people from the east and wrap it up in the 'we are so persecuted by the east' mentality. When are you going to realize that this is one big *frig* country and we should be working together to try to have it firing on all cylinders instead of saying screw you to fellow Canadians.

Impressive language coming from you Cattsuck. However many, many people out here in Alberta think your words ring hollow. Including myself. I have seen federal governments at work in the past making political decisions to benefit Eastern Canada at the expense of the West.
In 1968, the Air Canada overhaul base was moved from Winnipeg to Montreal resulting in job losses in Winnipeg.
In 1986, Bombardier of M ontreal got the CF-18 maintenance contract in a monumental political decision at the time over Boeing of Winnipeg by the federal Tories. Brian Mulroney even admitted back then that the decision to give the contract to Bombardier was totally political even though Boeing's tender was lower than Bombardier. That one decision led to the formation of the Reform party from strong feelings of western alienation & disgruntlement. That one decision changed the landscape of this country (politically) forever.
The National Energy Policy was a tax grab by the federal Liberals back in 1980 & hurt Alberta for years until it was disbanded in 1990. Billions of dollars that should have stayed in Alberta instead flowed to Ottawa resulting in thousands of job losses here.
I was living in Winnipeg at the time of the introduction of the NEP but people I know in the oil patch out here have talked about those dark times. Literally overnight when the NEP came into being, people were laid off & companies closed. Homeowners walked into banks in Calgary & handed the keys to their house over unable to pay their mortgages. People committed suicides. Unemployment rose. As did the growing hatred & mistrust for anything Ottawa.
Until federal politicians & people who live outside of Alberta quit looking at our province & the oil revenue we generate as a cash cow for the taking, we will never work together to build this country as you so poignantly suggest that we do. How can we in Alberta help build this country any more than we already have when we can't trust federal politicians to do the right thing & not rape us?
The National Energy Policy is still well remembered. The Liberals are still universally hated for what they did to Alberta nearly 30 years ago. Now we have to deal with a proposed Liberal carbon tax aimed directly at our oilsands from another federal Liberal leader in Stephan Dion which will kill jobs & investment in this province??? There is a growing fear of what will happen to Alberta if the Liberals actually win the next federal election. People are concerned.
And still cattsuck... you don't get why federal politicians (especially Liberals) are hated so much out here & why people with everything to lose because of this carbon tax look suspiciously sideways at anything coming from down east.
The carbon tax Dion proposals won't kill jobs or the provincial economies in Ontario & Quebec. People out here think that carbon tax wil make a lot of people down east happy because once again, Ottawa gets to sock it to Alberta. The carbon tax will kill the Alberta economy to be sure. But that just doesn't seem to matter, does it?
So yeah, go ahead... keep talking about how we should be such one great happy & unified country while Liberal politicians from Ontario & Quebec bring in draconian measures like this aimed solely at the revenues from the Alberta oilsands. Wrap yourself in the flag.
A Stephan Dion carbon tax will help to certainly spew an anger from Alberta the rest of Canada will never have experienced before. That, I can guarantee. You may not want to hear it... but oh well, that's life.

Iso - I was responding to this little gem in your rant "This plays well down east in Ontario & Quebec where all the votes are. Punish Alberta. Dion's plan won't create jobs in southern Ontario but boy, oh boy, it'll sure make people down east happy the Liberals screwed the economy in Alberta." I was stating that this does not play well in Ontario or Quebec and that if you think it would make us happy - you are so far off base it is unbelievable. I agree that the NEP was a disaster and that this proposed tax by the OPPOSITION party is just a tax grab and believe that the voters here and in Quebec will see it as a tax grab as well.
Nowhere in my response do I state that this proposed tax grab is a good thing, nowhere do I say the NEP was a good thing, nowhere do I state that we need to 'screw the west'. You have put those words into the mouths of voters from Ontario and Quebec to rail against the Liberal party and Ottawa. Wake up, I am a voter in Ontario and I would never vote for a proposition like this so quit accusing me of wrapping myself in the flag because I think we need to address the problems of Canada on a larger scale and not a regionalized scale. As for not trusting anything that Ottawa says, then I suppose you don't trust the PM's response that this Carbon Tax will 'screw everyone'? I guess you must hate him for saying that - he is a federal politician and according to you he must be lying. I happen to agree with him - but I must be lying because according to you I am an Ontario voter and I must hate Alberta and want to screw you and every westerner.
Time to put some more tin foil in your hat iso - the voices in your head are telling you things about us from Ontario that just isn't true - believe it or not we are not all Liberals, we don't hate Westerners, and we can actually see a bad idea put forward by an opposition hoping to get back into power.
What I don't want hear is people like you telling me that because I am a voter in Ontario I must hate Alberta, I must be so stupid that I would agree to this proposed tax, about how I would be happy that the cost of manufacturing would increase once again under this 'tax' and that even more jobs would be lost here in Ontario. You don't speak for me as an Ontario voter - you are not here in Ontario, I am and I will speak for myself.

Catssuck, all I have to do is look at the formation of the Reform Party in 1987 by Preston Manning due to feelings of western alienation to know that many, many westerners TODAY still feel that their voices are not heard in Ottawa. If push comes to shove & votes are at issue, the west will lose every time. The carbon tax proposal by Dion is proof of that. Like the Gun Registry, the carbon tax is designed to get votes for the Liberals in urban areas of Ontario & Quebec.
Westerners have felt alienation from Eastern politicians since as long as I can remember. I remember Pierre Trudeau coming to Saskatchewan in the 1972 federal election saying it wasn't his job "to sell your wheat". But it was his job to take our taxes. Funny how that worked. The beat goes on.
You don't speak for me as an Alberta voter. You are not here in Alberta. I am and I will speak for myself.

iso_55 wrote:Catssuck, all I have to do is look at the formation of the Reform Party in 1987 by Preston Manning due to feelings of western alienation to know that many, many westerners TODAY still feel that their voices are not heard in Ottawa. If push comes to shove & votes are at issue, the west will lose every time. The carbon tax proposal by Dion is proof of that. Like the Gun Registry, the carbon tax is designed to get votes for the Liberals in urban areas of Ontario & Quebec.
Westerners have felt alienation from Eastern politicians since as long as I can remember. I remember Pierre Trudeau coming to Saskatchewan in the 1972 federal election saying it wasn't his job "to sell your wheat". But it was his job to take our taxes. Funny how that worked. The beat goes on.
You don't speak for me as an Alberta voter. You are not here in Alberta. I am and I will speak for myself.

Go ahead and speak for yourself - just stop trying to speak for the rest of us out West...

iso_55 wrote:Catssuck, all I have to do is look at the formation of the Reform Party in 1987 by Preston Manning due to feelings of western alienation to know that many, many westerners TODAY still feel that their voices are not heard in Ottawa. If push comes to shove & votes are at issue, the west will lose every time. The carbon tax proposal by Dion is proof of that. Like the Gun Registry, the carbon tax is designed to get votes for the Liberals in urban areas of Ontario & Quebec.
Westerners have felt alienation from Eastern politicians since as long as I can remember. I remember Pierre Trudeau coming to Saskatchewan in the 1972 federal election saying it wasn't his job "to sell your wheat". But it was his job to take our taxes. Funny how that worked. The beat goes on.
You don't speak for me as an Alberta voter. You are not here in Alberta. I am and I will speak for myself.

Go ahead and speak for yourself - just stop trying to speak for the rest of us out West...

"By rest of us"... you only mean yourself right, squirrel? Funny how you claim to speak for everybody out west but I don't?? Get off your pedestal, squirrely boy. I would never presume to speak for you - nor would I ever want to.
I know I don't speak for all Western Canadians. However, I speak for a large group of Albertans fed up with our province being used as a whipping boy by federal Liberal politicians everytime they want more tax revenue or to pick up some votes down east. And squirrely boy, your province is just getting back on its feet financially thanks to new investment coming into your province from oil drilling & exploration. For the first time in decades your provincial treasury has new money flowing in.
Things are pretty good now in places like Saskatoon & Regina. So good the province is urging its ex pats in to come home from Alberta with the promise of jobs & a better life. If the Liberals get in federally & this carbon tax comes to pass, the boom in your province will be over before it even really starts.
If the oil sands were in Quebec, I wonder how strong Dion's convictions would be towards the environment with a carbon tax???

iso_55 wrote:Catssuck, all I have to do is look at the formation of the Reform Party in 1987 by Preston Manning due to feelings of western alienation to know that many, many westerners TODAY still feel that their voices are not heard in Ottawa. If push comes to shove & votes are at issue, the west will lose every time. The carbon tax proposal by Dion is proof of that. Like the Gun Registry, the carbon tax is designed to get votes for the Liberals in urban areas of Ontario & Quebec.
Westerners have felt alienation from Eastern politicians since as long as I can remember. I remember Pierre Trudeau coming to Saskatchewan in the 1972 federal election saying it wasn't his job "to sell your wheat". But it was his job to take our taxes. Funny how that worked. The beat goes on.
You don't speak for me as an Alberta voter. You are not here in Alberta. I am and I will speak for myself.

Go ahead and speak for yourself - just stop trying to speak for the rest of us out West...

"By rest of us"... you only mean yourself right, squirrel? Funny how you claim to speak for everybody out west but I don't?? Get off your pedestal, squirrely boy. I would never presume to speak for you - nor would I ever want to.
I know I don't speak for all Western Canadians. However, I speak for a large group of Albertans fed up with our province being used as a whipping boy by federal Liberal politicians everytime they want more tax revenue or to pick up some votes down east. And squirrely boy, your province is just getting back on its feet financially thanks to new investment coming into your province from oil drilling & exploration. For the first time in decades your provincial treasury has new money flowing in.
Things are pretty good now in places like Saskatoon & Regina. So good the province is urging its ex pats in to come home from Alberta with the promise of jobs & a better life. If the Liberals get in federally & this carbon tax comes to pass, the boom in your province will be over before it even really starts.
If the oil sands were in Quebec, I wonder how strong Dion's convictions would be towards the environment with a carbon tax???

*Yawn* I didn't claim to speak for anybody but myself. You're the one claiming to know the thoughts of others.

iso_55 wrote:Catssuck, all I have to do is look at the formation of the Reform Party in 1987 by Preston Manning due to feelings of western alienation to know that many, many westerners TODAY still feel that their voices are not heard in Ottawa. If push comes to shove & votes are at issue, the west will lose every time. The carbon tax proposal by Dion is proof of that. Like the Gun Registry, the carbon tax is designed to get votes for the Liberals in urban areas of Ontario & Quebec.
Westerners have felt alienation from Eastern politicians since as long as I can remember. I remember Pierre Trudeau coming to Saskatchewan in the 1972 federal election saying it wasn't his job "to sell your wheat". But it was his job to take our taxes. Funny how that worked. The beat goes on.
You don't speak for me as an Alberta voter. You are not here in Alberta. I am and I will speak for myself.

Go ahead and speak for yourself - just stop trying to speak for the rest of us out West...

"By rest of us"... you only mean yourself right, squirrel? Funny how you claim to speak for everybody out west but I don't?? Get off your pedestal, squirrely boy. I would never presume to speak for you - nor would I ever want to.
I know I don't speak for all Western Canadians. However, I speak for a large group of Albertans fed up with our province being used as a whipping boy by federal Liberal politicians everytime they want more tax revenue or to pick up some votes down east. And squirrely boy, your province is just getting back on its feet financially thanks to new investment coming into your province from oil drilling & exploration. For the first time in decades your provincial treasury has new money flowing in.
Things are pretty good now in places like Saskatoon & Regina. So good the province is urging its ex pats in to come home from Alberta with the promise of jobs & a better life. If the Liberals get in federally & this carbon tax comes to pass, the boom in your province will be over before it even really starts.
If the oil sands were in Quebec, I wonder how strong Dion's convictions would be towards the environment with a carbon tax???

*Yawn* I didn't claim to speak for anybody but myself. You're the one claiming to know the thoughts of others.