Ep 4: “Merging Silly and Serious” with Martha McCaughey

Lillian talks with Appalachian State University’s Professor of Sociology Martha McCaughey who tells us about her fun and engaging way to get students to collaborate, reflect upon big ideas, and demonstrate their knowledge in silly ways to get to the serious stuff of learning! She also discusses how learning about the UDL principles has changed the way she designs assessments and has added to her toolbox of teaching practices.

First Year Seminar at Appalachian State University– Take a look at the First Year Seminar program at Appalachian State University that Martha McCaughey has overseen for the past 4 years. And you’d better believe those creative posters and videos were all her idea!

Transcript

[Lillian] Welcome to think UDL, the
Universal Design for Learning podcast, where we hear from the people who are
designing and implementing strategies with learner variability in mind. I’m
your host, Lillian Nave, and I’m interested in not just what you’re teaching,
learning, guiding, and facilitating, but how you design and implement it and
why it even matters. Welcome to episode 4 of the think UDL podcast where my
guest today is Dr. Martha McCoy, the director of first year seminar and the
common reading program and professor of sociology at Appalachian State
University in Boone North Carolina. Today Martha and I get to discuss one of
the resources on the College Star website that she has created and shared with
all of us. This is a really fun and useful way to reflect on student learning
throughout the semester. It is a technique that can be used in any college
classroom and comes from her experience in her upper-level sociology seminar.
Thank you Martha McCoy for joining us today on think UDL. I’m really interested
in hearing about your recent module on merging silly and serious for creative
expressions for learning. My first question for you is: what was the context of
this, what made you come up with this idea?

[00:01:51]

[Martha] Well I’ve been teaching this class that the sociology students
hate the senior research seminar. It’s a capstone class. They have to pass it
with a C or better in order to get their bachelor’s degree in sociology. They
hated it and then that made me hate it and I really wanted to do something
different. I decided as part of a course redesign to think more seriously about
where they were at and how I could meet them where they were at. The students were
so intimidated by the rigor of the class and having to do their own research
project and having to discuss the ethics of it and their methodology and do a
thorough literature review and come up with their own conclusions and cite
their sources properly and all the things they do in the class. I realized that
they just, I needed to tap into the affective domain at some level and to acknowledge
that this was a sort of painful, serious, rigorous course and find a way to
lighten it a little bit; not make it easier. I didn’t change any of the
requirements but I wanted to acknowledge the sort of difficulty they were going
through and find a way to get them to bond over it and to tap into their
feelings about it and even find ways to make fun of how difficult it was.

[00:03:24]

[Lillian] So this is a senior class so there they are all really, serious
students. they are in it and have been for a long time. and did you since they
had lost a little bit of their fun or interests in it because they were so far
down this very serious class or course of study?

[00:03:50]

[Martha] Well no, I don’t think they had lost their sense of fun. I think
all there are other sociology classes or a lot of them are actually more
interesting and engaging. They take race relations and criminal behavior and
deviant behavior and constructions of gender and things that are much more
interesting to them and relevant. Then they come to my class and they have to
do this sort of research project that is one, much more self-directed than what
they do in their other classes and two, something that takes the entire
semester to complete it’s not tiny little projects but this big capstone
experience and I think it’s just more daunting as a task. So I think they were
not used to the serious rigor of the class in the rest of their sociology
classes. I think they were more, those other classes tend to be more topical
and fun for them.

[00:04:48]

[Lillian] So would you say this is more of a Theory class.

[Martha] No. The idea is they have to construct their own research
question and based in a thorough review of the literature so they have to do a
lot of library research first and a lot of thinking on that make an original
argument and it’s just really their big opportunity to be original in their
thinking and their assessment of the sociological theories and research that
has come before them. so I think that’s the part that’s intimidating to them.

[00:05:27]

[Lillian] I see. Well, so, what were some of the ways that you were able to
merge silly with this serious content?

[Martha] Well what I did was decide that we met twice a week and that at
the end of the week, every week we would get into our teams. They were in teams
of three and they had the same team for the whole semester. So there was a
little bit of extra bonding that took place there and have their teams come up
with some big thing they learned that week; something they, a rule they had to
remember, or some tasks they had to make sure they got done in the next week in
their homework time or some principle of the research process or whatever it
was. Whatever we were focused on that week they would have to summarize that
most important lesson of the week in some creatively communicated form. I would
give them that form for the week and I would say: if this is the most important
part of your literature review and was a Facebook post what would the Facebook
post be? Then I would give them a little template of a Facebook post and ask
them to write it down. Each team would come up with something and then they’d
look forward to listening to what the other teams had to say. Or if it was a:
if this were to be a cat meme what would the meme say or if you had to tattoo
the most important thing you’ve learned this week on to your body what would
the tattoos say and I would pass out pictures of little body parts and then
they would actually write the tattoo; you know they make the tattoo on the body
part on the image. Then we had a big bulletin board in the class and every
team’s creative communication for the week would go up on the big bulletin
board. I was lucky that the department chair allowed me to take over that
entire bulletin board for the whole semester. So our stuff got to stay up. We
just kept building on it week after week. So they also had this sort of visual
reminder of the past lessons they’ve learned and it was fun to look at them
because they were memes and Facebook posts and tattoos and there were pictures
of cakes and they would have written something as though were written in
frosting on cake. So they had all kinds of fun images up on the bulletin board
going throughout the semester.

[00:07:50]

[Lillian] And what was the reaction of the students when you gave them this
first assignment.

[Martha] They had a lot of fun with it. I think it became really important
for them to come up with something witty for one thing. The teams worked hard.
They would only take you know maybe six minutes at the end of class and we’d
have a couple of minutes to share what the others came up with, but just in a
few minutes they would want to come up with something funny and that really did
express the important thing they’d learned. Of course it gave me a chance to
see if they were getting the message. Sometimes they didn’t get the right point
and I’d have a chance to make a correction. So it was a quick assessment
opportunity for me, but a lot of times they really did seem to get the point
and I was pleased with it. They would share that, but they had to confer with
each other first because they were with teams of three and then they would say
okay well what would Yoda say, then they would have to come up with something
that Yoda would say about whatever this sociology lesson was. They would want
to make it funny. They would want to make it sound like Yoda. There would be
someone who would try to talk like Yoda and that just made it much more fun and
light-hearted. Given how serious and how seriously intimidating the work was, it
just lightened it a little bit for them and put it into a context of
communicating that they were used to. So a lot of the rules they had remember
were about the professional communication styles of sociologists. As sociology
majors they were bound to use the specific state citation style and the
specific organizational structure of proper literature review. They were
supposed to discuss their research methods the way sociologists have to discuss
them and these were all professional communication techniques that a lot of
them found intimidating and foreign. So to come up with ways of communicating
about those intimidating communication rules using the communication strategies
they were familiar with like, memes and Facebook posts and tweets and tattoos
and using those familiar communication and techniques helped give them a way in
to the thing they were really mastering, which was a set of foreign
professional communication techniques. So tweeting about their proper
literature review format was helpful to them because it was like okay well I
know how to tweet so let me tweet about this even though what I’m tweeting
about is this complicated professional sociological communication strategy. So
it kind of worked because it met them where they were at and showed them okay
we’ll go ahead and use your way of communicating but what you’re going to
communicate is what you’re learning and what you’re learning is this whole
other way of communicating.

[00:11:00]

[Lillian] So worked well it did. As Yoda would say.

[Martha] yeah well it did.

[Lillian] Worked well it. I was interested too because it sounds like they
are using that time to reflect upon their learning and when you’re in the
trenches and you’re going through what sounds like a lot of work and continuous
to step back and then say do I get the big picture, do I understand each part
and how it relates to a larger part, am I getting the big concept, is often
something we reserved for a big exam right or the final paper or something like
that so it sounds like as an assessment technique you were able to keep them on
track but also this seems like a really good time of reflection for them.

[00:11:56]

[Martha] Yeah I think so. They were able to stop and talk with each other
and come up with what they thought was the upshot of that day or that week and
I think that was helpful. Again, to do it in a way that was fun and
light-hearted. It wasn’t graded. It was part of what they did in class as an
activity. I think made it, again, just really stress-free for them. In fact, it
was a stress relief because they were getting more and more stressed. I’d
taught the class multiple times and I saw that they would get more and more and
more stressed as the semester went on and this big huge project was maybe not
getting done or was a lot harder than they realized it was going to be. So this
really helped them feel like I understood how hard this was for them and they
were allowed to talk about how hard it was for them and they were even allowed
to joke about how hard it was for them. So one of the things I did most of the
time, the creative communication techniques that I was having them do, were
summarizing some substantive point that they were learning, but one of the
times I simply asked: how do you feel trying to make sense of all the data
you’ve collected in three emoji or fewer. Then they’ll come up with three emoji
or fewer and they would do you know some really funny combinations of emoji to
express how overwhelmed they felt. That was a case where I just literally gave
them permission to just talk about or express how stressed out they were or how
overwhelmed they were and to make light of it in a couple of minutes and that
was fun too to just give them permission to let me know how hard it was for
them.

[00:13:47]

[Lillian] well one of the things that I’m seeing here is a really important
Universal Design for Learning principle that you’ve really paid attention to in
this technique. and it’s part of that effective part of the brain, the
emotional part of learning, and you have created a sense of community in their
teams. and did they stay in the same team each time?

[00:14:11]

[Martha] Yes. They stay in the same team all semester.

[Lillian] So they are communicating as a team and they have a real sense of
togetherness and that camaraderie is also really helpful for learning. So it
seems like this technique pulls in a lot of parts of Universal Design for
Learning: giving options for communication and giving a different way to
communicate (not so serious way), but also a really important way that offers
time for self-reflection. So let’s see, did you have all of this in mind when
you thought of it?

[00:14:51]

[Martha] Probably not. I think, I knew I wanted to introduce the affective
domain and I knew I wanted to have them tap into some form of communication
they would find fun or familiar or both and from there I think I began to learn
more about UDL and to see how that was UDL. I think that there’s been a lot of
times where I’ve designed assignments that would work for a number of different
learners, but I mean I had done that for years but didn’t know there was
anything called Universal Design for Learning back then. So it’s one of those
things where you might be practicing a technique because you’re seeing that it
works but you don’t know there’s a whole body of literature behind it.

[00:15:42]

[Lillian] Yes. Exactly what one of the reasons why I love having these
conversations with creative faculty like yourself, Martha, is chances are there
are a lot of people who are using Universal Design for Learning principles
because it’s worked, because they got their students really into the project;
it motivated them. They saw really fantastic results, they just didn’t know it
was called UDL or were using one of the principles in their design, but being
familiar with it for all of these different tweaks or maybe spreading it across
different classes or environments. So that we we’ve got a lot of instructors
who are incorporating these things and a lot of people also don’t know about it
or what the benefits can be so I appreciate that you’ve been first of all a
creator of these things, but also to be able to share it with us. I noted I
think our listeners would also be very interested that on a college star
website this merging silly and serious for creative expression is one of the
modules. So really anybody could do this. Do you see this in other disciplines
or something like that?

[00:16:57]

[Martha] Yeah and I know that a number of professors have already adopted
it and they heard me present on it at the Lille conference on teaching and
learning a couple years ago. There are faculty members teaching math,
statistics, there was someone teaching abnormal psychology I think, and some
other classes that students tend to feel are either a drag or intimidating or
just rough going. Those were the faculty members who immediately connected with
my story and wanted to start implementing some of these techniques. What’s
great about the module on the college star website I think is that I did all
the groundwork so that if someone wants to start doing this in their class they
don’t have to do it every week the way I did. If they want to try it a couple
of times in a semester they can try it, but they don’t have to go looking for
these, you know, cakes they have students right on top of or the parts of the
body that they want students to make a tattoo on to though or the cat memes. Those
are all on there so you can just click on an image or a form of creative
communication you like and there’s a template. You can just print it out from
the college star website and bring it into your class or if you teach online or
partially online you can download it and have students make these Creative
Communications online and then post them to an online discussion forum space to
share with their fellow students. So I just did some of that legwork already
which makes it easier for people who want to try the technique to just hit them
just go ahead and start implementing it in class.

[00:18:48]

[Lillian] I’d say you did all of the legwork if anyone wanted to try this.
I’ve looked at the module and loved the examples that you provide. I think my
favorite is the thank-you notes, I’ll Jimmy Fallon, is that one? I know my
students get most of their news from Jimmy Fallon or other late-night host so
incorporating what is the language and the method of how they speak to each
other and that funny part always makes it more interesting. So Martha, let me
ask you. What’s your favorite technique that you’ve employed to merge the silly
and serious in your class?

[00:19:26]

[Martha] I would say the mid-century pop art comic and that’s because if
you’re familiar with the Roy Lichtenstein drowning girl you know a single frame
comic and usually somebody who looks very anguished or upset or stressed out. Sometimes
it’s a lady crying with, you know, tears running down her face. I provide
images of these single frame pop art comics with an empty speech bubble and
then have the students fill in the speech bubble. They really enjoy that
because they they’re planning to make it funny and they make a point. No matter
what you’re teaching you can find a way to have students summarize some aspect
of their learning that day using the single frame pop art comic and having them
write in a speech bubble. They love making it witty. They love boiling down
what they’ve learned to a single statement that works with those comics. I’ve
found a variety of comics and they’re in the public domain, so I, you know, not
violating copyright or anything I share those, but they’re the students love to
do that and it tends to automatically give them permission to bring in their emotion
because the pop art comic characters are usually already anguished so…

[00:20:52]

[Lillian] Is there anything else about this technique that you use that you
think we should know about some any revelations you found from using it or
outputs that maybe you weren’t even expecting

[00:21:07]

[Martha] Well… I guess I think when I thought about why it works well I
think the important thing is that the students who might be most likely to feel
intimidated are maybe not the students most likely to be intimidated might be
non-traditional students or first-generation students and we don’t as
professors often realize that we’re speaking a language that sounds foreign and
intimidating it sounds foreign intimidating to a ton of people but I think
there’s some research that shows it’s especially foreign and intimidating to
first-generation college students and I think that where we’re trying to give
all these students a great opportunity and we want to make sure that they plug
in and feel like they belong and feel like they can be here and be doing what we’re
doing in class and I think it’s on us to come up with some techniques that work
with a broad variety of students because we want all those students to succeed
and it’s no fun learning in an environment that feels intimidating or stifling
of creativity or where you think you’re the only one who’s having a difficult
time figuring out what to do I think it really helped everybody feel plugged in
and like they belong and that they weren’t the only ones to feel intimidated
they thought oh ok we’re all feeling this way in fact our professors are
letting us talk about how we’re feeling that this is a daunting task and it is
a lot of what they had to do is really daunting but I’m in letting them talk
about it I think I took away some of the…

[00:22:56]

[Lillian] Anxiety or something?

[00:22:57]

[Martha] Yeah, yeah I took away some of the anxiety and just some of the
what seemed sort of snobbish about it I think and I had I had students on my
evaluations say that the professor is arrogant and they considered me kind of
snobbish because I had all these high standards and I did all this research and
I was a published author and I didn’t mean for that to come across as snobbish
or intimidating but I had to admit that they learned that it did come across
that way and I really wanted to find a way to make it less intimidating and I
didn’t want them to see me as a snob I wanted them to see me as someone who’s
done it who was capable of teaching them how to do it and who was coaching them
through it and who was capable of at least remembering that it was hard to do
at least when you first start doing it

[00:23:53]

[Lillian] Well it one of the things I’ve noticed is that instructors will
often forget what it was like to be a novice learner and this technique really
helps the students build that rapport it seems with the professor have you
gotten a snobbish review since using this

[00:24:13]

[Martha] No I think that class would turned out much better and I think
they saw me more as on their side I mean I still had to grade them and I still
had to you know tell them if they didn’t pass a certain standard and all of
that but I think they saw that they understood there was going to be a lot of
work they knew I knew that and they saw me as on their side hoping they got
through it and wanting them to enjoy the process too and I think in the end
they did enjoy it even though and they could feel proud of their accomplishment
when they completed it but no the class and more importantly I would say just
the class got more fun for me I mean when I felt like it was so awful for them
I’d have rather gone and gotten a root canal than show up in class I mean I was
really not liking it for me either so it made it much more enjoyable for me and
it’s a certain point that was why I was willing to take the risk and try a
whole new teaching strategy because I couldn’t go on anymore so I wanted to change
for me and I hoped and thought it would work for them too and I think it did
but my original motivation really being willing to take the risk was that it
wasn’t working for me either to have that class atmosphere and I was stuck
teaching the class this wasn’t a class I had opted into teaching I was
consistently assigned to teach it because it was a required course and somebody
had to teach so I didn’t have really the option of just walking away so I
wanted to make it better for me and I think it in doing that it made better for
all of us and then it was just a feedback loop after that where I liked it
better and they liked it better and then they liked it better made me liked it
better and then that made them liked it better because I liked it better so

[00:26:12]

[Lillian] It sounds like a fantastic loop and everybody’s learning you know
and I thought the reason I loved this when you told me about it was because it
was silly I and fun and it turns out after talking to you I am also seeing the
reason why I really love it is you are seeing your students as whole people not
just brains but you are really designing this environment to account for the
fact that these are real human beings with hearts and brains and souls and
anxieties and capabilities and you’ve designed that into the course and
oftentimes we forget to do that as instructors we will only design for the
brain that is checking off boxes and getting these objectives done and we miss
a little bit of the whole person that’s learning at the same time so this
technique really does get to all parts of that person and helping them really
to go much further than they could have that anxiety really could have held the
back and here they are being able to deal with that and then go on more
confidently and move forward so that’s what a great benefit that is maybe an
unexpected one but a fantastic one. So I have a few other questions what makes
you a different learner?

[00:27:42]

[Martha] So what makes me a different learner is that I actually like
being lectured to so I went to a big University the University of Michigan and
I had classes with five six and seven hundred students and I liked sitting
there taking notes while the professor spoke with the microphone up at the
podium and I so I think that’s because I’m an auditory learner right is that…

[00:28:11]

[Lillian] Yeah, yeah that you possess, you can process things very well by
listening yeah

[00:28:16]

[Martha] I actually do not like to learn by doing you know or if a
professor says everybody go down the hall try to find something or do something
and go you know the men go into the women’s bathroom and women go in the men’s
bathroom I’ve colleagues who do things like this the students seem to love it I
was the kind of student who hated doing that I wanted to know what was the
point what is the research show and what do you want us to be learning you know
about whatever it is and so I have had a hard time as a teacher remembering
that not all students want to sit and be lecture to like I do they do want to
go do an activity and sort of figure out the point later and so I’ve had to
remind myself that my teaching style cannot be based on my learning style and
that I need to know all the different learning styles and develop teaching
styles that are that help all those different learning styles of course you
know some people feel more comfortable teaching one way over another and it’s
not like you can completely come up with a teaching style that doesn’t feel
comfortable for you and might not work but I have really tried to vary what I
do so that it for a variety of people but I am an auditory learner and auditory
processor and it’s interesting to me how that works and how that’s different
for other people

[00:29:45]

[Lillian] So Martha tell me about your experience that moved you from being
just a lecturer to incorporating different teaching techniques

[00:29:55]

[Martha] So I had a very good fortune in graduate school of working as a
peer teaching coach we had a Teaching Development Center at University of
California Santa Barbara where I was in graduate school and they had a
videotaping service and teachers could sign up to be videotaped especially
graduate students who were teaching for the first time and then they would come
in and watch the tape of themselves teaching with a peer coach like me and I
had a fantastic boss Shirley Ronkowski who trained us in how to be good
teaching peer coaches for our graduate student teaching colleagues so I really
did get exposed to a lot of the literature on teaching styles and teaching and
learning and so I got to watch a lot of other people teaching and talk to them
about their teaching in that job and then I got to read a lot of the literature
that Shirley Ronkowski gave us in our training sessions and I learned about the
use of suspense in teaching I learned about the use of props I learned about
discussions and what types of discussion questions are useful and I was able to
learn I learned about these so that I could talk to the teachers coming in for
their coaching session about them but of course I was able to incorporate those
in my own teaching as well so I really learned about the different learning
styles and the different teaching styles that could match those learning styles
through that job and graduate school so I was really lucky that I had that

[00:31:41]

[Lillian] That’s fantastic it sounds like we need to incorporate that in
every PhD program so that we get a lot of variability as far as our teaching
because we know that our learners have a lot of variability as well so I have
one other question although you know you, your answer was kind of both before
so if you don’t have anything to say that’s fine but my other question was how
has Universal Design for Learning and incorporating that changed the way you
teach or learn

[00:32:18]

[Martha] I would say I like I like we talked about before I was using a
lot of the principles of Universal Design for Learning without realizing that
was what UDL was and but now that I know much more about UDL I am intentionally
incorporating techniques which allow for multiple means of expression so that I
really am intentionally including a variety of learners in when I when I design
an assignment I’m doing much better at making my assignments transparent where
it’s clear to students what the purpose the assignment is what steps they need
to take to get the assignment started what I’m expecting them to do and what a
successful assignment would include I think that many of us didn’t have that
when we were students and with we became professors it was probably because we
were able to be pretty good at being students even if we didn’t have a
professor who’s very clear in their instructions but it’s really I’ve really
made an effort over the past couple years to do really clear syllabi and where
it’s very clear what students can expect from me and what I’m expecting from
them and make really clear and transparent assignments so that they are not
trying to figure out what I’m looking for what where they understand oh here’s
how you do this kind of thing and here’s a model of assignment I find students
really want to do well and they want to learn how to how to do what the
assignment is helping them learn how to do and if it’s clear and transparent
it’s a lot less intimidating so I think those are ways that I’ve realized I
need to intentionally do that and I try to push other faculty to do that same
thing to be more transparent in their course design in their assignment design

[00:34:27]

[Lillian] I think you bring up a really common barrier to learning actually
in exactly what you mentioned and it’s something that I found too when I would
assign what would be a usual assignment in my field maybe a 15 page research
paper but then did not give a clear understanding of what I expected of when
deadlines might be of how to do it of what a good assignment looks like and when
I first started teaching with that assignment they were terrible and I thought
at first I thought these students can’t do the work and then I realized very
soon afterwards that it really was a barrier I was putting up because I wasn’t
specific in what I was asking them to do and giving them or teaching them how
they should go about doing it. It was something that I had learned right I just
forgotten that I at one point was a novice learner and here I was all the way
at expert level and expecting my novice learners to be experts so in essence
you’ve delineated this barrier that you were able to take away so that your
students could really understand what you were asking them to do which is a
fantastic UDL principle in action is to help our students know what they are
doing and why they’re doing it what the purpose of that is

[00:35:55]

[Martha] And ultimately I think if we want our students to succeed and we
want them to learn the material that we have on offer then we need to commit to
designing the learning experiences and assignments in ways that will make it
most possible for them to learn what we want them to learn so to me it isn’t
just a test of how well they can figure out my vague instructions which I think
some faculty members really do think well they should know or they should go
figure it out and I think that’s kind of like being on an authority trip but my
passion is for them to learn what I think they need to learn and so I am going
to work really hard to make my assignment it designed in a way that allows them
to learn it it’s not hand-holding it’s not telling them things they’re supposed
to already know or anything like that but it’s just being really clear so that
the assignment doesn’t become an exercise and guessing how to please the
professor or it does an assignment where it’s an exercise in calling your older
siblings who’ve graduated from college if you lucky enough to have anybody in
your family who’s graduated from college and who can help you I’d rather it be
something that really allows the student to go oh here’s how I go do this and
then I know that when they go do that thing I’m telling you to do that’s where
they learn the skills that this assignment is trying to teach or have them
practice so for me it’s really about the dedication to their learning the
material that you ultimately want and need them to learn and I think we get too
caught up sometimes in just whether they’re good enough to be there or whether
they’re following my instructions and assuming my instructions are even clear
enough to follow and or whether they’re self-motivated enough and all that I
think we second-guess our students and we don’t actually second-guess our own
our own plans and designs as teachers enough so

[00:38:11]

[Lillian] It seems like in that plan what you’ve just described you’re
really putting the learning the student learning first and that’s the number
one priority and I think that’s the most important thing right that seems to be
why we are doing what we’re doing in a university at least teaching a class
that seems to be what we’re supposed to be doing so I really appreciate your emphasis
on that and knowing how to get at that student learning so that our students
can be successful in these endeavors

So thank you
so much Martha for spending time with us at the think UDL podcast and I always
admire what you do at Appalachian State University with the first-year seminar
program and also what you’re doing in faculty development and what you’ve
shared with merging silly and serious especially in the College Star website so
thank you very much for your time Martha

[00:39:09]

[Martha] Thank you it was fun

[Music][Lillian] You can follow the think UDL podcast on
Facebook Twitter and Instagram to find out when new episodes will be released
and also see transcripts and additional materials at the think UDL .org website
the think UDL podcast is made possible by College STAR the star stands for
supporting transition access and retention in post-secondary settings and the
website provides free resources and instructional aids based on UDL principles
if you’d like to know more go to the College STAR .org website additional
support for the podcast is made possible by Appalachian State University where
if you call it Appalachian I’ll throw in Appalachia the music on the podcast
was performed by the odyssey quartet comprised of Rex Shepherd, David Pate,
Bill Folwell and Jose Cochez our sound engineer is Tanner Jones and our social
media coordinator is Reuben Watson and I am your host Lillian Nave thank you
for joining us on the think UDL podcast