"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, September 2, 2011

Watchdog Reaches 28 Years of Age (In Dog Years): An Update on Lawsuits, and the Most Shocking Fact So Far from the Lawsuits

This week marks the 4th anniversary of my first post on the FBC Jax Watchdog blog, posted on August 30th, 2007. That would make the Watchdog 28 in dog-years.

I appreciate all of the readers who have contributed to the blog. After 4 years the blog has steadily grown in readership, now at about 59,000 views per month, over 1.5 million views total. To date I have published over 600 articles.

I hear from readers via email regularly at churches who do support and appreciate my efforts on this blog to expose some of the crazy, abusive, sometimes humorous antics of pastors in the SBC and elsewhere. On the other hand I know many of you don't like me, think I'm recalcitrant, hateful, etc. But that is OK, the more I read about and understand modern organized religion, the more I understand why some of you hate this blog so much. But I will keep writing, and I'll keep giving you a forum to disagree with me and even tell me how evil I am.

I thought I would take this opportunity to give an update on the lawsuits that were filed by myself and my lawyer as the result of the events back in the fall of 2008 and spring of 2009 surrounding the revelation of my identity. And I wanted to give you one of the most shocking facts that came out of the first lawsuit that you will find quite amazing - even more shocking than the revelation that the detective pulling subpoenas was on the church's discipline committee at the time he pulled the subpoenas.

Lawsuit Against City and Sheriff's OfficeThose of you that have followed this blog have known that two lawsuits were filed back in the summer of 2009 shortly after the front page news story of the police investigation that uncovered my identity. One was a federal First Amendment lawsuit against the city of Jacksonville and the sheriff's office and the state attorney's office , and another against Mac Brunson and FBC Jax for the statements made by the pastor to the Times Union reporter.

The first lawsuit against the city and state attorney was over the Google and Comcast subpoenas issued in late 2008 by a detective who was a member and employee of the church, and who also was a deacon and a member of the discipline committee that sought my identity. If ever there was a conflict of interest in a detective pulling subpoenas, it was this case.

After a lengthy discovery period involving many interrogatories and depositions, and after depositions revealed the detective was not just a member and employee but also on the discipline committee of the church at the time of the subpoenas, the city settled the lawsuit with a cash settlement and an agreement by the sheriff's office to train their detectives on first amendment issues involving Internet speech (the training bulletin was completed and issued last December - read about it here). There was quite a bit of media coverage of the police investigation and subsequent First Amendment lawsuit; even Jonathan Turley, legal scholar and TV commentator chimed in on the lawsuit here and here.

Lawsuit Against Pastor and FBC JaxThere still is a civil lawsuit against Mac Brunson and FBC Jax over the words of Mac Brunson as quoted in the Times Union in 2009. There have been several motions filed in the case, but the bottom line is it is still working its way through civil court and a trial date has been set for May 2012. I have no more updates than this.

A Shocking Fact About the Watchdog's IdentityLastly, I thought I'd take this opportunity to share one of the most shocking facts about this blog and my identity that most of you don't know. This fact was one of the first significant revelations that the defense helped bring to light in the federal First Amendment case last year.

Here it is: Mac Brunson and his office were told of my identity months before the subpoenas. They were told who the FBC Jax Watchdog was in the summer of 2008.

All of his hullabaloo, and the subpoenas weren't even necessary to find who I was.

As revealed during testimony in the case, one of the members of my extended family, with the best of intentions, sent an anonymous letter identifying me as the owner of the Watchdog blog during the summer of 2008, about 2 or 3 months before the detective opened his investigation. This family member was worried about what the church leadership would do to me or my wife and family if they found my identity, so they mailed a hand-written letter to Mac Brunson, identifying me as the Watchdog blogger, requesting that he reach out to me and visit me and answer my questions. I had no idea that this person sent this email - until they were under oath in the federal lawsuit almost two years later and admitted they were the ones that sent the letter.

Why is this so shocking? Let me explain. I do remember reporter Jeff Brumley sharing with me in April 2009 just before he published his front page article on this case, that someone at the church - I believe it was Brunson himself - told Brumley that they knew who I was all along because they had received a letter from one of my relatives the year prior!

But apparently, if we are to believe the testimony in the First Amendment case, the Brunson's decided never to act on the letter, and decided not to share this letter with anyone. The detective/discipline committee member didn't mention it in his deposition so apparently he didn't know about its existence. He said he had no where to start when looking for the blogger so he had to immediately issue subpoenas as a first step. John Blount admitted in the paper that he wanted to know where the blog was coming from so he went to the police. But his own pastor, his boss, had the key piece of evidence - a letter stating who the Watchdog was!

John Blount's testimony was that once Detective Hinson told him the results of the subpoena, that I was the blogger, Blount said he knew me and my family, that I was no threat, and he instructed Detective Hinson to close his investigation. Then two weeks later, Blount was on my doorstep delivering my letter of 16 sins and trespass papers for me and the Mrs. Two weeks after that, Blount filed official trespass papers against me and my wife with the sheriff's office for the dastardly offense of "church misconduct".

Here is perhaps the most puzzling aspect of this letter: the defense had to make a case that Detective Hinson was actually doing a real investigation when he pulled the subpoenas, and not merely doing a favor for his pastor and the discipline committee he served on. So their argument was that the blog was viewed as a threat, and the blogger might be a threat to the safety of the pastor and staff. Allegations of mail stealing and photographing the pastor's wife were thrown around for good measure. But the letter throws a wrench into that argument - because if the Brunsons viewed the blogger as a threat - why when you get a letter identifying the dirty rotten scoundrel don't you immediately call the police, or at least share it with the discipline committee so they could do one of their own crack investigations?

I will provide updates on the second lawsuit as it progresses.

Thanks again to my readers for reading and contributing to the blog these past 4 years.

Any chance during the investigation Brunson was asked if he new who might be messing with his mail,etc, who the threat might be? Did he make that statement to the cops? If so, lying to the police. Somebody in central florida recently got 3 years for lying to the investigators.

The testimony of the detective was that he never interviewed the Brunsons as part of his investigation. That was one the points in our motion for summary judgment in the case right before settlement: that it wasn't a real "investigtion", but a favor for his church. If it were a real investigation, he would have interviewed the victims, and interviewed potential suspects. He never interviewed the Brunsons, never interviewed me. Just got the names, gave them to Blount, and shut down the investigation.

Thy Peace - there was no evidence in the depositions that anyone besides the Brunsons knew about the letter. I still find it incredibly hard to believe that no one besides the Brunsons knew about it. They must have considered it important, because they did hold on to it.

All I have to say is that Mac Brunson was the wrong man to hire for our church, he's just not a good fit and people are polite but have no respect for him - we have no trust in this man. He needs to go, but then there is no money left to buy him out, so we're stuck.

As for the W/D, I don't know him personally, but do respect his blog - it has made a big difference in people's life for the better.

Thanks W/D for your ministry and hanging tough for your family! You didn't deserve the dirty handling of Mac Brunson & Blount and more than less members know it.

Does this mean that the Detective's effort was a rogue outing, discussed only between the Detective and Blount?

I guess they did not tell Brunson so as to insulate him.

But if they had told Brunson, he would have said that he knew who the blogger was and not to bother with an investigation.

Do I have this right?

Also, when questioned, the Detective never used the mail theft, the stalking etc. as a basis for having the subpoenas issued. I thought from the beginning they would try that, and that if the facts were arranged, you could make a case for that.

But the Detective never used that as an excuse.

Is that because Brunson had mail stolen, his wife thought she was being stalked, but that he knew these events were not connected to you?

Paige Patterson: Mac Never Got a HoneymoonUnbelievable, he had not been at First Baptist Church Jacksonville for even two months, until recalcantrants started on him, and uh, unbelievable to me that anyone would do that, you know used to (sic) you got a honeymoon period in a church, uh, everybody said that we'll wait at least until he makes 5 mistakes before we kill him, and uh, so, that has not been the case in Jacksonville...

On the day after Chest of Joash, Detective Hinson accidentally crossed paths with church administrator John Blount (a "chance meeting") on church property. It was here that Blount expressed his concern over the blog and the safety of the church, and asked the detective if anything could be done. The detective told him that he could do something if someone filed a complaint, and Blount did right there on the spot.

Then, with absolutely nothing to go on he said, his very next step was to issue subpoenas to Google for my blog, for NewBBCOpenForum's blog, and Tiffany Croft's blog. He demanded that Google send him all personal information on the owners of this blog. When that info came back with my IP address, he immediately issued subpoenas to Comcast to get my name. His subpoena request forms sent to the assistant state attorney that would have listed the reason for the subpoenas were accidentally destroyed, and we never got to see them.

Hinson says he never interviewed the Brunsons or anyone else as a part of his investigation. Opened the investigation, got my name, gave it to Blount, then closed the investigation at the request of Blount.

It should be noted at the time of Hinson's deposition (8 hours long) when he was telling us all of this, we had no knowledge of him being ON the discipline committee!! That didn't come out until Blount's deposition. Hinson never volunteered that information in deposition, and as I gathered not even Sheriff Rutherford knew about THAT level of connection between Hinson and the church, but when he discovered that connection, he was not happy.

8:36 - it has been over a year now since the depositions ended, and I felt that now I wanted to write about some of the things that were uncovered.

Remember, when I first filed the lawsuits, I said on this blog I was determined through the lawsuits to find out what happened, why they did what they did, and was determined to write about it and let others know. Hinson went after my personal information from Google and Comcast, gave it to his church, who then promptly bullied me and my wife. I have no doubt that the church leaders thought the blog would be shut down within 24 hours after delivering my list of 16 sins and trespass papers. They tried to bully me, and it backfired.

And to think it was all unnecessary, because someone in my family disclosed to the Brunsons who I was, and asked them to visit me, long before any "investigation" by Hinson. Truly remarkable.

One possibility is that FBC Jax wanted to independently verify who the blogger was, irrespective of the anonymous letter to the Brunsons identifying the blogger. I am afraid all this confirms that FBC Jax is run more like a business and less as a church.

Good one, Thy Peace. Yes, it was Paige Patterson, back in 2007 who drummed up sympathy for Brunson in a SWBTS chapel service, claiming he never got a honeymoon, and "recalcitrants" went after him right away.

Only time I've ever heard a human being use the word. Except me, of course.

TP: of course. But that theory would assume that others knew about the letter, and that did not come out in depositions.

Certainly, it would make sense that if they had reason to believe it was me, but they wanted to make dead-level certain it was me, then have Hinson get subpoenas. But in that scenario it is truly a favor for the church and not a police investigation.

And about the sheriff not being happy about Hinson being on the discipline committee:

Remember, the first thing I did when I found out about the subpoenas, was file an official request for an Internal Affairs investigation. This was pooh-poohed, and one was never done...but if they had done even a modest level of investigation into what Hinson was up to, they would have discovered his much deeper connection to the church than was first reported.

I have seen our Pastor cry more in the pulpit the past few months than in the whole time he has been here.

I give you the credit for that.

September 2, 2011 8:38 AM

I feel it's nothing but a performance - if he was a caring man, regardless of lawyers advice, he'd get on the phone & call W/D and say "we need to talk" as I'm truly sorry! His crying is nothing but a show!

"Why did the Pastor, who had received the letter, not just pick up the phone or get in his car and make contact with Dog?"

In other words, the 'independent verification' is only justified IF Dog is contacted and lies about this blog being his. THEN you can do your investigation IF you feel fear.

The MOMENT Blount is told that the blog belongs to DOG he swears, under oath, that he orders the investigation stopped because he knows Dog and his family and knows there is nothing to worry about from them.

So, it seems to me that the reason the letter identifying Dog as the author of this blog was kept secret was NOT to verify, but to PUNISH. In other words, "Get the police involved. Get the DA involved. Intimidate. Bully. We'll show Dog whose boss in Jacksonville."

From my observing eyes out of state, I think the ones who should be shaking in their boots are the trustees who are legally on the hook. I do hope FBC Jacksonville has continued to pay the premiums on their trustee liability insurance.

WD.. Happy Birthday.. While I was bit surprised by your blog, which I was told of by a former FBCJAX staff member, I have faithfully read it and believe it is an instrument of God. Had you not been blogging about all of the sinful, prideful, self-depricating pastors, staff members and churches, we would all still be blinded by the actual facts.

I have since left FBC and have found a wonderful church. I occasionally visit FBC and I my heart hurts for what used to be a magnificant church that was reaching the lost and being a light house in this city.

The church as made a turn for the worse. Could it be that Brunson thought he was coming to a typical "SBC Convention" church, where the Pastor is expected to get involved with the political aspects of the SBC? FBCJAX has never been a "convention" church;Lindsay could care less about the political aspects of the convention and he was soley focused on reaching the lost of Jacksonville.

I believe Brunson is a nice guy, great wife and family, just seems to be in over his head. Brunson still has an opportunity to turn it around; start with hiring a true music minister. FBC has always been a music power house. You change the music minister and bring somone dynamic in, you will see the attendence come back.

Happy Birthday! I didn't discover you until the Summer 2010, because of the Ergun Caner debacle. I didn't re-discover you until I was trying to find out Brunson's salary. I was then shocked to discover the lengths that powerful people had at their disposal to unearth anonymous bloggers.

I do not always agree and what goes on at FBC Jax is not my fight. Still you have become one of my regular blogs. You do great work.

I don't know that I agree with this presumption of guilt. Having an anonymous letter is in reality "hearsay" and not evidence in a court of law without additional documentation backing it up. Had anyone gone to Tom and confronted him it would be easy for him to deny it. Not saying that he would, but he could have for fear of retribution.

Even if the letter had been turned over to police, it still has no merit without forensic evidence supporting the allegation. That evidence could only be a few things:

1. The person writing the letter came forward under oath and admitted it. Of course, we all know that people lie under oath. See Bill Clinton.

or

2. Electronic evidence procured by a subpoena. This would be irrefutable evidence that the letter had merit. Without this type of documentation the letter would be worthless as to is accuracy.

""Why did the Pastor, who had received the letter, not just pick up the phone or get in his car and make contact with Dog?"

First, it is hearsay and has NO MERIT!

Second, no person would approach another person with an accusation from an anonymous letter. Would you confront your spouse with adultery if someone sent you an anonymous letter or your best friend of sleeping with them? No. This is not done in polite society.

It would be totally outside the bounds of decency to approach Tom and his family based on an anonymous letter.

Anon - you don't know what you're talking about. FBC Jax already demonstrated about a year and a half prior that they have no problem visiting a member suspected of being a critical blogger.

But again, the point of the letter is not that the Brunsons or anybody should have visited me or confronted me. Rather, it goes against the argument made that they considered the blog a threat! If the blog is a threat, and the blogger is feared, and somebody gives you a name - you tell somebody. You ask your direct reports "do you know this guy? Could he be the blogger?"...and there would be nothing indecent about visiting a guy and saying, "hey, we got this letter that says you are the blogger, brother? Is it you?"

If you're a detective, doing a serious, bonafide investigation, yes, you want the anonymous letter! You want to know who all possible suspects might be, so you can interview them.

One of the points made in our motion for summary judgment was this: if the detective was doing an investigation, why did he close it at Blount's request? He never really confirmed that I was the blogger! He got my name, but in a legal sense it could have been anyone at my house, could have been a relative, etc. But he stopped his investigation at the request of Blount, and then the church took the investigation over, sent me a letter, demanded I appear before their discipline committee, etc.

Anon 9:11.. That logical approach doesn't fly at FBC. They have approached people who they think, on hearsay, are commiting adultry, they have removed people from teaching positions when they believe there are marital problems. There was no reason why Brunson, Blount, etc couldnot have reach out to the W/D. There was no verification necessary.

W/D again you are correct. This was an inside job to bully you. They thought you would go running scared and shut down the blog. Talk about Sopranos, who needs a TV series when you have these antics going on in a church no less!

To be honest watchdog and because of my point this will be the last post I will blog. To me posting my comments seems to be following "blowhard blog" has gotten to be old and failing in be clear in objectives. Church discipline needs to follow some sort of objectives even if it through posting. What I am finding that some baptist ministers are ignoring blogs by having a mindest that the "true baptist church" had been around for years before Luther came upon the scene. They merely see this tactic as someone who won't respect their own successionistic authority. To be honest I have found that they are also fallen into believing in Textus Receptus successionism as well. To be honest I am not sure what church to believe in anymore in terms of local authority. As a result, I am looking into Messianic congregants moreso and really don't get this "women" debate as elders. This seems confusing as I don't see any precident given. On the other hand many times of the women can teach, testify of faith, instruct,etc. Paul states to Timothy of "formal mentoring" in his letter. Convinced personally to many men in the culture today hav gone passive and lack the chivalry to deal with molesting wolves. Anyway I will visit from time to time.

TP...my point is that if the state had a true interest in needing to know who the blogger was, then further investigation was warranted. Hinson would have come to interview me to find out if it was me, my neighbor on my wi-fi, etc. But if it was just a favor to confirm who they already suspected it was so they could bully me....I think you see my point. The issue in this case was: did the officer have a legitimate interest in knowing my identity, or was it a favor for his discipline committee?

WD-Happy Birthday!!! And thanks for the updates, I have been curious about the statu of things, but felt it was not any of my business. The actions of Dr. Brunson remind me of actions of a mob godfather. He knows all that he needs to know, he just wants to test the loyalty of those under him. So he sends them out to "test" them to see if they will do his bidding. Interesting stuff and quite frankly, dispicable!Kyle

Oh, and I should add, on this milestone date, how your witness, and the witness of others here like Thy Peace and Provender (to name a couple) were at least partially responsible for bringing me back to my senses. Even at my worst - when I came here and pretty much denied God's existence - some of you loved me and prayed for me. Thank you.

Funny thing about this post About a week ago, I thought about the continuing lawsuits as I was falling asleep and prayed for you and your family.

What FBC meant for evil, God took and used it for good. You have an excellent blog which clearly points out problems in today's churches. You are, in a sense, a prophet challenging the status quo. And you do it well without any trace of arrogance.

'This family member was worried about what the church leadership would do to me or my wife and family if they found my identity'

What does that say about the leadership?"

Church leaders often have poor views of their critics. A Pastor's job in a sense is a public relations game. He serves at the behest of the people. Leadership constantly has their decisions questioned and this sometimes leads to a paranoia. This comes with the job. However many leaders start thinking of themselves as some sort of blue bloods that can take advantage of their power. Just because they can, they assume they should.

Congratulations on your anniversary, Watchdog! I want to thank you for all you've gone through, and your perseverance, to help enlighten fellow Christians on this whole issue, as well as many other issues. I have learned so much from reading your blog; my eyes truly have been opened. You are an example to Mac Brunson of how a real man of God is supposed to act. If Mac's pride weren't his Achilles heel he could see this. Blessings to you and your family Tom, and may you continue! (Why has Hinson kept his job with the sheriff's office after such an abuse of his position?)

Wd. I like your blog. As a pastor I do know of many in leadership positions who will reject any criticism and will try to assinate the character of the criticiser. So,go on with mission of casting some light where there has been too much darkness.veate

SBC Plodder [William Thornton] > SBC megas, Lottie, fishing, church bloggersFour years ago a church member who felt disenfranchised in his congregation started blogging about it. Since then, the blog has had 1.5 million page views. Pastor, you might want to check the openness and transparency level of your church. The alternative to such may be more harmful than what you perceive to be the harm in your members knowing where their money goes and being able to talk to you and your staff.

"Bottom line; he's still there, the church is still there, they are paying their bills"

As usual Seneca (fake name), you are completely clueless.

The goal is not necessarily that he leave the church, but for him to change his behavior and to conform to biblical principles.

Being a good speaker doesn't mean that you can violate church member's privacy rights and then serve them trespass papers, write a book advising young pastors not to take gifts and then do it yourself, or merchandise the gospel for your own benefit and then not report what you are making to those who pay your salary.

When you do those things, people tend to tune out your well-presented sermon.

But I can see how you would think along those lines. It meshes perfectly with today's secular celebrity-worshiping mentality.

Seneca....I agree completely. The school is in its third year, the satellite church is going strong, the remodelled auditorium is paid for...and he is as popular as ever. Cruises and Holy Land business is going well each year, his friend and co-author Ergun Caner has survived his fiasco last year and had a wildly successful summer on his speaking tour, and Mac is getting more speaking gigs than he can handle. He and Ergun have a revision ready for their book "Why Churches Die"....and it will be a hit after the last couple of years of notoriety they have achieved.

At least you all can see how Brunson is prospering in spite of your attempts to discredit him. I don't know him or care for him but your attacks sure don't seem to be doing a thing. Maybe he is God's man for that church and you're too bitter and caustic to see it. Might be something for you to think about.

SENECA- you've been a bad bad boy. Time for a spanking! Have your nasty comments on this blog been "above reproach"? I don't think so! I wonder what the congregants at Sunrise would think about this state of affairs? It might send them all into a dither........!

Bottom line; he's still there, the church is still there, they are paying their bills, and he remains an excellent expositor of Scripture.

September 2, 2011 3:01 PM

The goal should be to see all the ignorant pew sitters there leave. Mac is a charlatan. How anyone can believe he is anything but a greedy man who merchandises the Gospel for his own selfish reasons, is beyond me. When will people wake up and stop supporting this stuff?

How anyone can take him or Steve Gaines seriously as professional Christians, I do not know. Suckers are born every minute.

Thanks for sharing the additional information about the legal situation and process to date. It may be useful to me in the future, though I usually work WITH churches to PREVENT this kind of thing from getting out of hand. As a mediator and conciliator, I try to advise self examination and conversation so as to keep conflict less severe and reconciliation possible.

I've served as a church administrator with senior pastors who ought to know better than to do some of the things they've done in and/or to churches. If those fellows won't learn the easier way how to manage/lead their congregations, then I have to hope they'll learn the harder way. WD, full steam ahead on the civil lawsuit; the senior pastor world is watching. I'm looking forward to the outcome.

No, no one can fill Adrian Rogers’ shoes but Steve Gaines was doing a good job of replacing him as pastor the first year he came. However, that was not good enough for him, he decided to make the church about him and split the fellowship.

I do not get it. What could Mac gain by keeping your identity a secret as an investigation went on? Anyway, you mishandled the whole situation and you are at fault for the whole thing getting to the point of courts and civil actions. Your actions were stupid...pure and simple. Mac might have been wrong to call you a name. However your actions are sociopathic, and delusional by definition. No one should ever put their church in any such position. You should have simply left.

I remind you that your statements in this blog led to the whole matter. There is no denying the fact.

Using the logic of 9/3 1:08 children who are in the wrong place at the wrong time are the ones who cause themselves to be molested and women whi dress in revealing clothes are responsible for themselves being raped and the abused and beaten child is responsible for the bruises they received cause they were bad.

I wonder if this line of thinking can be tied to a calvnistic view of man. Either people are responsible for their own actions or they aren't .

Seriously, you got what you wanted. Speaking of 'Pride'... You need to get a 'real job'...and move on... no one cares. I know, move to Kansas with your 'best buddy' and stir up some trouble there.

September 3, 2011 9:28 AM

Seriously, Mac got was coming to him - he's the one who needs to get a "real job" . . .and move on . . .a lot care about this journal - truth is shared on this blog that a whole lot of readers appreciate. Search Committee & deacons - your support comes from few members, not the majority of members who want him to get out of Dodge!

My "best buddy" in Kansas - now that is funny. I know who you're speaking about. He'll be happy to know a bitter person like yourself considers him to be a troublemaker...a badge of honor coming from Kool Aid drinkers. :)

There is no bitterness in loving God, your Church and your Pastor. Which, if you are a Christian, you should do as well. We do not care about you at all. As you well know, God is in control and that is all that matters. On 'your anniversary' it is quite applicable to tell you we do not care and you need to move on. I'm sure you are going to continue to 'blog'...I'm sure you think that is what you 'are supposed to do' in life. I have heard how your old School Class feels about all of this and I can imagine how your family feels. I only check this blog once in a while, but, seriously, you need a job. Oh wait, you do, you get $ from doing things like this...have fun!

If you are a FBCJ member, I do feel for you, and have pity on you. I know what you are going through. I hear from some of your former church members and staffers on a regular basis, and it is sad what you have at your church in leadership. I can only imagine how you feel each week, and how your family feels.

There is something ironic in someone telling how we are to love God, church, and pastor, yet in the next sentence say "we don't care about you at all". That really sums up what FBCJ has become. It is quite sad.

The bitterness in your comments about my family, and my "old School Class", shows that you are very, very bitter.

So keep it up, keep enduring, and we will keep praying for you at FBCJ.

Major Congrats on your birthday Watchdog !! I've known you since you were just a puppy. These last 4 years have gone by so fast. Thank you so much for staying the course, and doing it with grace. Here's to 28 more years. Please accept my gratitude with a huge box of doggie treats :)

Thanks for the kind comments, N.O.S. and Sheri. I have no doubt that these ugly comments don't represent the average church member at FBC Jax. Probably some young members who are enamoured with the celebrity of their pastor and the size of their church. I feel sorry for them.

=================================I'm listening to Brunson's sermon on Job - "I want you to listen to me folks", his favorite quote as well as "I want you to listen to me very carefully" . . .he's using sermons for backlash to this blog! For the above post writer, Mac booted a whole lot of us out, including staff - we had the same feelings as you say the "Main Prune" did. Actually FBC has crates of prunes still there, determine to stick it out until he goes.

I guess we who are still members of First Baptist need to ask this question: Is First Baptist better off today than we were before Mac Brunson became the pastor. Is soul-winning and visitation one of our top priorities,does Mac Brunson go out on visitation on Tuesday nights like our former Pastors did,have you ever heard Mac Brunson refer to his wife as a godly woman like our former Pastors use to refer to their wives. just wondering.

Wow, so anyone disagreeing with WD is a bitter person. Now isn't that's calling the kettle black? As I've posted before, I will continue to pray for you that you will be convicted about the harm you do to the cause of Christ. If anyone stands in the pulpit, they will be held accountable for their actions to God. I believe you get your joy from all the props/high fives from fellow bloggers who truly believe you are doing "good". Do you honestly believe you will hear, "Well done, my good and faithful servant" when your life is over? I just don't think you can see past your own bitterness and hurt about what happened 3 years ago.

If you see fit, would you please check on Robert Morris' message this week (9-4) on different levels of heaven? He is claiming there will be a variety of cities in heaven and some people will get to be "mayors" of them based on their works on earth.

He told people that if they tithe their reward in heaven will be greater. He also made a joke about he judgment seat, implying the "great white throne" is where the saying "on the throne" came from (meaning toilet). Then he added, "theology is really deep when you think about it."

The concept of different "levels" of heaven actually sounds more to me like Muslim teachings.

Yes, I know it hurts for you to hear it, but I will hear "well done, good and faithful servant". Does it make you feel good to believe that I WON'T hear that, that I'll hear "depart from me for I never knew you?" I'm a Christian, so I won't hear that, as much as it pains you.

No bitterness here, but once again, your bitterness comes through loud and clear.

I honestly don't care if anyone gives me "props" - I know that the number who despise me outweigh those who agree with me, and that is fine with me. Glad you chimed in.

Perhaps you can't see the bitterness and hate you have towards me....get over it! Enjoy life, and stop reading this blog.

I don't despise you, Tom. I feel sorry for you. You are deceived. I'm not bitter, and I don't even attend FBC. but I will take your advice. I can't continue reading this blog. It makes me sad and it doesn't bring honor to Jesus.

The truth is people go to church but do not hear the thrut. Is this what the creater wants. The bible says my people die from the lack of knowledge.

The pastors want to stick your head in the sand and call it bibilical. Every godly nation that has done that is no longer a people of god but a people of abuse with out of control government. It seems that asking questions is not biblical.

It seems that we must trust in the order of conquset of pastors to be saved and prevent deception.

Or is this satin dressed in white garments seeking who he will devoure

Truth always brings honor to Jesus. Deceivers like Mac who are fakes are the ones who dishonor Christ. I don't expect you to think that deeply since you seem to follow man instead of Christ. Most pewsitters do not know how to think.

"BOTTOM LINE AFTER 4 YEARS: FBC Jax is doing anywhere from good to fair. Homer and Jerry are not coming back.There are certainly more than a few disgruntled ex-members."

"Seneca, how do you know? Did we not read that you are not a member or attending FBCJ?"

I really don't think I posted anything all that contraversial.The existence of FBC watchdog and all the negative commenters is proof that there is more than just a few disgruntled ex-members. Tom gets pretty good numbers on his blog.

As for rating FBCJax from fair to good; you couldn't call them "poor." I don't think they're about to close their doors. But on the opposite end, they don't appear to be booming like the Church at Chet's Creek w/ Spike Hogan. So "fair to good" seems like an honest assessment.

Finally, I think it would be self-evident that Home and Jerry will never again pastor FBC Jax.

Finally, I think it would be self-evident that Home and Jerry will never again pastor FBC Jax.

September 5, 2011 12:09 PM

MR. Griggs (if that's your real name which I doubt)For your information members did not expect a new pastor to be a "Homer or Jerry", but we didn't expect a new preacher to come and make changes when we had a full house & a sucessful church - we expected the same format to even get better but we soon realized it was to become Mac Brunson's church. He's fired & run people off - he's not made our church better but worse. Sad!

I don't ask Pope Mac much of anything. I asked the quesiton simply because those who huff and puff and blow big bags of wind in order to obscure the real issues behind the conduct of their favorite clergymen often fail to apply the same standards to themselves, their friends, and to whichever mega-pastor whose ring they are currently bowwing down to and kissing.

I certainly agree with quite a few 'comments'... and therefore, have a few questions. 'Four years' is quite long enough to be quiet.1) Indeed you are a 'troublemaker' and do not need to 'boast' about that. Your current 'anniversary' post sure sounds like you have done alot for this city. Not !2)IF you were not happy with your God given leadership, why did you just not pack up your precious (and I am sincere about that)family and leave FBC quietly?3)Obviously with all that occurred, YOU actually exposed your identity yourself, yet trying to 'blame' it on others for YOUR gain. And ? here, since most of us know who you are, why don't you identify yourself on your blog profile, since you seem so proud ?4)'Pot calling the kettle black'...how IS it that you are so defensive to anyone not agreeing with you, that WE are all wrong, you judging us...somehow does not seem fair that it does not work 'both ways'.5)oh yes, sulfur is getting to me too...

Anon, here is your problem: your religion causes you to be blind in certain areas, so I feel sorry for you.

Here is my advice: obey your pastor, who very much does not want you reading this blog. He prays that you will not read it. It is not good for your mental health to be challenged with views and opinions that fly in the face of your religion. So stop it. Read Open Windows, or read Oswald Chambers, but don't read this blog.

Sulphur(ok sp.) - does 'ruin' alot...but, you did not respond to one of my questions. Why not? You sure want others to 'account', why can't you do the same? I assure you, we know why. Also, do not worry, it has taken 4 yrs for me to comment to you, I really did not want to waste my time, obviously I was right in that since you cannot respond. Again, don't worry, most of us have much better things to do, mainly 'things' for the Lord, and 'real' jobs that we are thankful for. You are right, there are much better things to be reading!

Sulphur(ok sp.) - does 'ruin' alot...but, you did not respond to one of my questions. Why not? You sure want others to 'account', why can't you do the same? I assure you, we know why. Also, do not worry, it has taken 4 yrs for me to comment to you, I really did not want to waste my time, obviously I was right in that since you cannot respond. Again, don't worry, most of us have much better things to do, mainly 'things' for the Lord, and 'real' jobs that we are thankful for. You are right, there are much better things to be readin

I agree with the previous 'anon'...you comment to plenty of 'anonymous' comments....the ones YOU wish to respond to. Go figure, further explains what you are really all about. But, we already knew that. In response to your comment about Dr. Brunson not wanting us to read this blog, what you probably meant was for us not to 'waste our time'...but, as you well know and am sure feel, it is a free society and we are adults and can do as we please. There is one that should act more as an adult and 'practice what he preaches' !

Dear Young Man, this is not the site - especially not the person to address your concerns to. If you go to FBC and are involved in the youth programs, you could not be in a better place. No one loves you more than those that are there. No one is perfect, but, these are the times that you will remember forever and friends that you make now, that you will have forever. This gentleman certainly can, and should, pray for you, and so will I in leading you to the right person to answer your questions. If he does the right thing, he will also give you the same advise.

Speaking of Job. It occurs to me that he represents the tribulation period. 7 days on the ground...7 years tribulation period. 42 chapters ...half way through the tribulation period. Loses his ten children...all replaced resurrection. We can learn a lot from Job as he went through hell on earth unlike no other man. Only Jesus suffered more than Job. Its true prophecy and follows Esther when the Jews were almost annilated by an evil Haaman. Then followed by Psalms where Jesus appears in further prophecy regarding his death and resurrection. God is so good.

WD 6:44pmAre you kidding, you sound like you are comparing yourself to a preacher..."blogger/preacher". You can stop right there. Not a chance. Sounds like you are just evading answering the person's question.

Now you are dragging our students into this mess. I understand that some of the students that left FBC are pointing their friends towards this Blog. Even atheist are saying this Blog is evidence that Christianity is fake.

What's next, you going to do a Veggietales movie called "Mac Attack" and try to market it to our Preschoolers?

Anonymouse...apparently you are the one not 'reading' well...you must not see that your dear ol' WD is avoiding answering questions that he clearly 'wants to avoid'. Big problem if you support Tom in doing that. This young person sounds extemely intelligent, just sadly confused. Who do we blame for that ?

Hs'er...I commend you for reading the blog. I recommend that you do, and read it more. I recommend that you read many blogs to get a varying perspective on your faith.

Don't listen to these people that all they do is criticize me, and want to blame me for you even coming to this blog. They are afraid that you will think for yourself. They would rather you blindly follow man.

I recommend that you read Wartburg Watch, and read Wade Burleson's blog. I have given a list of sites on my blog that I recommend.

You will learn much by reading my blog. Read my criticisms of your church and your pastors. You probably will disagree with me more than you agree with me, but that is OK.

And feel free to tell us what your youth pastor said about the blog, we might all get a big kick out of it!

Let me say to you what you say to others whom you don't want to deal with..."I feel sorry for you".Also, of course to tell others not to read the blog,"you will be happier", also, those you don't want to respond to. Convenient !

Hey, WD the church is teething to make you move on, do you have a time line for discontinued the critical thinking by critics here. Maybe we should all learn the seven liberal arts for better insight, this has nothing to do with being liberal, liberal means book and free in Latin, see how thing are turned up side down. As a slave in Roman times it was impossible to learn the seven liberal arts, are we slaves today. Just wording if there was a time when you will move to a different ministry instead of wasting your time with your inquisitionist.

Don't blame this blog on anything to do with the youth leaving . You can look inside the church walls for the reason for that. They've been dwindling for the past few years or haven't you noticed that we barely have a high school choir now? No one there really wants to know why the youth are going cause it would shake up the baptist bro club and we can't have that now can we? You can kid yourself that this blog is why but there are quite a few kids who only go now cause they're forced to go. You see, they can see through things that for some reason the adults can't .

The question of whether a person should stay or leave a church is not a question any man can or should answer for you. The answer to that question is between you and God. You seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance not man’s.

You stated "You went after the Senior Citizens...and they are leaving."

Got that wrong, Tom Rich didn't go after Senior Citizens, they have eyes and ears, serious believers for many years - they certainly didn't leave because of Tom Rich, but Mac Brunson himself! And I might add they took their checkbooks as well.

Ouch, this article really brought out the FBC cheerleaders. The majority of FBC know about this blog, read & agree but use the voice of others to express their opinions & it's not positive on behalf of the Brunson team.

Why are we asking the same old questions about silly themes like on this blog? The Bible has spoken clearly that God has never ordained a female as a Pastor.

We have lost our minds people. Listen to me brothers and sisters, stop discussing issues with the intention of changing what the Bible has already spoken on.

No Female Pastors! No! No! No! Never! Never! Never! Does this offend you, guess who does not care about how you feel. Get a life in God and all of your problems will dissipate. Do not remain a constipated Christian, stopped up with the lies of church people that know not God

I am deeply saddened to read comments from FBCJ members who are so nasty toward you and your family. It is an obvious result stemming from the lack of Godly Leadership in the pulpit at FBCJ.

This past Sunday Junior Hill preached such a wonderful sermon. His sermon was from a KJV Bible instead of Brunson's Nicolaitan version and people responded! God certainly moves when his Word is preached from the Authorized Version.

This was the best sermon we have heard from the pulpit in four years. Junior Hill extended the invitation several times and people responded. Then Brunson had to jump up at the end of the invitation and extend it again to try and take some credit for all of the people coming forward.

Dog: I also loved this past Sunday's sermon by Junior Hill. It was so nice to have Godly preaching again and makes me miss what used to be a great message EVERY Sunday under Homer Lindsay Jr. Seems to me he also used a KJV Bible.

Anon 6:02...glad to hear you had a good service with Junior....about the nasty comments: it is possible those comments are the work of trolls and not real fbcj members. So I don't really pay them any attention.

Dr. Lindsay answered the question about why he preached from the KJV during one of his sermons, He said he and Dr. Vines uses other translations during their preparation for their sermons but preach from the KJV because most people brought a KJV to church so if they preached from a different version then there would be alot of confussion when reading from a different version.

"I am deeply saddened to read comments from FBCJ members who are so nasty toward you and your family."

Anon, you assume too much. Many of the folks here are TROLLS and not members of FBCJ or probably any other local fellowship and are just making inflammatory comments because they get a rise from it and know it can do the same to others for their own perverted fun.

WD, I had a thought. When they trespassed you off the church, they also trespassed your Hispanic wife. Let's say for the sake of argument that the blog was a heinous sin. Your wife had nothing to do with it. Do you think that the fact that your wife is Hispanic had anything to do with them going after her?

It is great to know you do have readers with great insight !Re: The High Schooler, I'm sure he/she is confused and needs alot of prayer and guidance, but, it is obvious that he/she is not very involved with the High Schoolers...anyone who is involved knows how FBC and Dr. Brunson loves these young people and are VERY involved in their lives. Sorry Tom, you know it's true. Obviously your life was not touched as a young person at FBC. Also, readers can clearly tell that Tom Rich is an unhappy troublemaker and name caller, but, Heaven knows cannot respond when others confront him at all, pulling "well, this is my blog, I can do whatever I want"...my oh my, he sure wants everyone else to account. Lastly, people sure 'give Tom 'credit' for vastly 'changing' FBC. We dare not give you any power. If you take any credit for any of the changes at FBC you are sorely sad. At any place of employment, which I doubt you really do not know, since you don't have a real job, there are always changes with 'new management'. Those folks, young and old alike, that have left, at least left for their own reasons and left quietly. In closing, I'm sure all realize that there is no problem with the attendance at FBC, oh, and by the way, BOTH campuses.

But I'll add...nothing to do with her being Hispanic, but how they treated her did have everything to do with her being female.

I don't think the trustees would have dared trespassed a man for the offense of his wife blogging. That is what they did, they bullied a woman, trespassed her for what they said on the trespass paper was her "associating with a member who is committing church misconduct."

Don't think they would trespass a husband for associating with his wife, but they did my wife for associating with me. Then when she tried to go see our daughter sing a solo on a Wed night, she was denied.

Bullies. Too bad they didn't have a few women on the board, they wouldn't have stood for it, I can assure you.

"This past Sunday Junior Hill preached such a wonderful sermon. His sermon was from a KJV Bible instead of Brunson's Nicolaitan version and people responded! God certainly moves when his Word is preached from the Authorized Version"

Are you familiar with where the term "authorized version" came from? From the church of England where church/state religionn was the norm.

The KJV was for one reason only. To consolidate the power of a new Scot King who had a Catholic mother for Protestant England.

In fact, King James would not allow the Puritan wing of the church of England to be at Hampton Court. His instructions for the version was that it would uphold the state/church structure of the Church of England.

I wish people would educated themselves. The KJ is a good translation but has some problems, too. They ADDED the word "office" where it is not in the Greek. They added "symbol of" in 1 Corin 11 where it is not in the Greek. Among other things.

Try the interlinear for your study. And it might help you to read the long preface of the KJV written by the translators. You can find it online. It is too long to include in most bibles.

Off topic.....I just looked at the news on Yahoo and there was a video of police arresting the Minister of Music from Clinton, MS. The wheels of justice certainly do move slowly, especially if you are shielded by the Church.

WD congrats on four years on the net. It doesn't surprise me that when you shine the light on some activities those that are afraid of the light run or hide. Those types like to do what they do best behind the cloak of darkness where light doesn't shine. What Jesus did was always shine the light either alone with the Father, with His disciples or when chastising the Jewish leaders. We need to be more open to express ourselves in or out of the church property. Truth is always the right path to take remember George Washington and the cherry tree.

About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"