If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

10 Reasons I am no longer a leftist

How far left was I? So far left my beloved uncle was a card-carrying member of the Communist Party in a Communist country...So far left that a self-identified terrorist proposed marriage to me. So far left I was a two-time Peace Corps volunteer and I have a degree from UC Berkeley.... I wore a button saying "Eat the Rich."... ten reasons I am no longer a leftist....

10) Huffiness.
... We rushed to cast everyone in one of three roles: victim, victimizer, or champion of the oppressed. We lived our lives in a constant state of outraged indignation. I did not want to live that way anymore. I wanted to cultivate a disposition of gratitude. I wanted to see others, not as victims or victimizers, but as potential friends, as loved creations of God.....

9) Selective Outrage (inconsistent)
I never witnessed significant leftist outrage over [self mutilization], child marriage, honor killing, sharia-inspired rape laws, stoning, or acid attacks. Nothing. Zip. Crickets. I'm not saying that that outrage does not exist. I'm saying I never saw it.
The left's selective outrage convinced me that much canonical, left-wing feminism is not so much support for women, as it is a protest against Western, heterosexual men. It's an "I hate" phenomenon, rather than an "I love" phenomenon.

8.) It's the thought that counts [do as I say, not as I do]
My favorite bumper sticker in ultra-liberal Berkeley, California: "Think Globally; Screw up Locally." In other words, "Love Humanity but Hate People."
....
Small beginnings greater ends.
..... "Only intolerant oppressors judge others' cultures."
... Mother Teresa, advised, "Don't look for big things, just do small things with great love." ....
Hillary's chuckles when reminiscing about her legal victory suggest that, in her assessment, her contribution to the ruination of the life of a rape victim is of relatively negligible import.

7) Leftists hate my people.

.... "Property is theft" is a communist motto, but no one is more house-proud than a first generation Pole who has escaped landless peasantry and secured his suburban nest.
..., leftists, in the academy, in media, and in casual speech, blamed working-class ethnics for American crimes, including racism and the "imperialist" war in Vietnam....
Leftists freely label poor whites as "redneck," "white trash," "trailer trash," and "hillbilly." At the same time that leftists toss around these racist and classist slurs, they are so sanctimonious they forbid anyone to pronounce the N word when reading Mark Twain aloud. President Bill Clinton's advisor James Carville succinctly summed up leftist contempt for poor whites in his memorable quote, "Drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, you never know what you'll find."
The left's visceral hatred of poor whites overflowed like a broken sewer when John McCain chose Sarah Palin as his vice presidential running mate in 2008. It would be impossible, and disturbing, to attempt to identify the single most offensive comment that leftists lobbed at Palin....
The left is still looking for its proletariat. It supports mass immigration for this reason.... mass immigration from Latin America has sabotaged America's working poor.
It's more than a little bit weird that leftists, who describe themselves as the voice of the worker, select workers as their hated other of choice, and targets of their failed social engineering.

6) I believe in God.
.... Hang out in leftist internet environments, and you will discover a toxic bath of irrational hatred for the Judeo-Christian tradition. You will discover an alternate vocabulary in which Jesus is a "dead Jew on a stick" or a "zombie" and any belief is an arbitrary sham, the equivalent of a recently invented "flying spaghetti monster." You will discover historical revisionism that posits Nazism as a Christian denomination. You will discover a rejection of the Judeo-Christian foundation of Western Civilization and American concepts of individual rights and law. You will discover a nihilist void, the kind of vacuum of meaning that nature abhors and that, all too often, history fills with the worst totalitarian nightmares, the rough beast that slouches toward Bethlehem.

5 & 4) Straw men and "In order to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs[purposeful lying, the ends justify the means]."
It astounds me now to reflect on it, but never, in all my years of leftist activism, did I ever hear anyone articulate accurately the position of anyone to our right. In fact, I did not even know those positions when I was a leftist.
"Truth is that which serves the party." The capital-R revolution was such a good, it could eliminate all that was bad, that manipulating facts was not even a venial sin; it was a good. If you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs. One of those eggs was objective truth.
.... The leftist strategy of slandering those who speak uncomfortable facts suppresses discourse and has a devastating impact on confrontations with truth in journalism and on college campuses.

2 & 3) It doesn't work. Other approaches work better.
... My students are hogtied by ignorance. I find myself speaking to young people born in the U.S. in a truncated pidgin I would use with a train station chai wallah in Calcutta.
Many of my students lack awareness of a lot more than vocabulary....
My students do know -- because they have been taught this -- that America is run by all-powerful racists who will never let them win. My students know -- because they have been drilled in this -- that the only way they can get ahead is to locate and cultivate those few white liberals who will pity them and scatter crumbs on their supplicant, bowed heads and into their outstretched palms. My students have learned to focus on the worst thing that ever happened to them, assume that it happened because America is unjust, and to recite that story, dirge-like, to whomever is in charge, from the welfare board to college professors, and to await receipt of largesse.
....1) Hate.
If hate were the only reason, I'd stop being a leftist for this reason alone.
... nouns expressing the emotions of anger, aggression, and disgust, and verbs speaking of destruction, punishing, and wreaking vengeance, outnumbered any other class of words.
One topic thread was entitled "What do you view as disgusting about modern America?" The thread was begun in 2002. Almost eight thousand posts later, the thread was still going strong in June, 2014.
...left-wing...did what they did every .... because they wanted to destroy something, and because they hated someone, rather than because they wanted to build something, or because they loved someone. You went to an anti-war rally because you hated Bush, not because you loved peace. .... My right-wing acquaintances talked about loving: God, their family, their community. I'm not saying that the right-wingers I knew were better people; I don't know that they were. I'm speaking here, merely, about language.

A couple of posts ago, I shared Ten Reasons Why I Am No Longer a Leftist by Danusha V. Goska "partly for what's objectively true, partly for what people on the right believe is true". But I didn't go into what I thought was true and what I thought wasn't, and I didn't offer any context. So:

Goska abandoned the left in the 1980s when identitarianism was first being promoted by theorists at Ivy League schools. Goska believes the entire left is like the identitarian left she knew.

10. Huffiness.

She's right; identitarians are huffy. With notable exceptions, conservatives don't get as huffy because they think they're doing what they're supposed to. Identitarians get very huffy because they think they're being better than everyone else. They get furious at names like "latté liberals" because they hate being reminded that they profit from a system that they criticize in ineffective ways—perhaps because they don't want to lose their place above the people they talk about helping.

9. Selective outrage.

On the one hand, "selective outrage" is natural in humans; we tend to focus on what our group focuses on. But she's entirely right that people who were furious with Bush the Younger's war in Iraq were remarkably indifferent when Obama kept to Bush's plan

8. It's the thought that counts.

There are plenty of conservatives who deserve the criticism that their words and deeds are at odds—there's a long list of conservative chickenhawks. But she's very right about identitarians. They talk constantly about social privilege, but none of them are interested in ending their own economic privilege.

7. Leftists hate my people.

Now, this section of Goska's post reveals that she knows less about Marx than she pretends, and if someone was to compare conservative insults of Hillary Clinton with liberal insults of Sarah Palin, both sides would lose.

6. I believe in God.

Goska's completely wrong here: The notion that religious people are on the right and atheists are on the left is just silly. Yes, Marx was an atheist, but there are many kinds of communists, including Christian communists. I could as easily say that if you hang out with Christians, you'll find would-be patriarchs and slavers. Goska's doing what most humans do, characterizing her opponents by the worst people who claim to be part of their group.

5 & 4) Straw men and “In order to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs.”

2 & 3) It doesn’t work. Other approaches work better.

She's right that liberal capitalism in general and identitarianism in particular don't work. That's why I'm a universalist socialist.

1. Hate.

Would that I could visit her world where there are no conservative haters.

A couple of posts ago, I shared Ten Reasons Why I Am No Longer a Leftist by Danusha V. Goska "partly for what's objectively true, partly for what people on the right believe is true". But I didn't go into what I thought was true and what I thought wasn't, and I didn't offer any context. So:

Goska abandoned the left in the 1980s when identitarianism was first being promoted by theorists at Ivy League schools. Goska believes the entire left is like the identitarian left she knew.

10. Huffiness.

She's right; identitarians are huffy. With notable exceptions, conservatives don't get as huffy because they think they're doing what they're supposed to. Identitarians get very huffy because they think they're being better than everyone else. They get furious at names like "latté liberals" because they hate being reminded that they profit from a system that they criticize in ineffective ways—perhaps because they don't want to lose their place above the people they talk about helping.

9. Selective outrage.

On the one hand, "selective outrage" is natural in humans; we tend to focus on what our group focuses on. But she's entirely right that people who were furious with Bush the Younger's war in Iraq were remarkably indifferent when Obama kept to Bush's plan

8. It's the thought that counts.

There are plenty of conservatives who deserve the criticism that their words and deeds are at odds—there's a long list of conservative chickenhawks. But she's very right about identitarians. They talk constantly about social privilege, but none of them are interested in ending their own economic privilege.

7. Leftists hate my people.

Now, this section of Goska's post reveals that she knows less about Marx than she pretends, and if someone was to compare conservative insults of Hillary Clinton with liberal insults of Sarah Palin, both sides would lose.

To this point, because of reception until the last: one argument. She was raised in Polish communism. There is no Marxist-in-theory that can touch that. Any attempt, isn't by a dyed and wool else they'd have done a Lee Harvey and went to some communist country. There is NO excuse from a democrat that would suffice. It is perhaps, akin to saying "Trump isn't Republican enough." At this point, I don't think he could be more republican. The rest? Absolutely cannot agree and with appropriate points.

Originally Posted by MrDante

6. I believe in God.

Goska's completely wrong here: The notion that religious people are on the right and atheists are on the left is just silly. Yes, Marx was an atheist, but there are many kinds of communists, including Christian communists. I could as easily say that if you hang out with Christians, you'll find would-be patriarchs and slavers. Goska's doing what most humans do, characterizing her opponents by the worst people who claim to be part of their group.

Politically, she is correct because the voting power and political movement doesn't pay attention to its minority constituents.
You and every vocal atheist on TOL is from the left. As a general and overwhelming observation, she is correct. Oddly, as she says liberals conflate facts to suit their needs, isn't this an example of exactly that?

Originally Posted by MrDante

5 & 4) Straw men and “In order to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs.”

2 & 3) It doesn’t work. Other approaches work better.

She's right that liberal capitalism in general and identitarianism in particular don't work. That's why I'm a universalist socialist.

Interesting, so you agree on her 5 & 4? I think the next generation into relative truth so would understand you not wanting to touch it...not trying to read too much into it, but wondering 'how much is too much?'

Originally Posted by MrDante

1. Hate.

Would that I could visit her world where there are no conservative haters.

Well, we aren't out busting windows, bricking cops, stealing from stores we just vandalized, or burning cars... Can you find me that youtube riot? This goes back to reading too much into that relative truth, "white" lies and ends justify the means type of discussion she was observing and reporting, doesn't it?

To this point, because of reception until the last: one argument. She was raised in Polish communism. There is no Marxist-in-theory that can touch that. Any attempt, isn't by a dyed and wool else they'd have done a Lee Harvey and went to some communist country. There is NO excuse from a democrat that would suffice. It is perhaps, akin to saying "Trump isn't Republican enough." At this point, I don't think he could be more republican. The rest? Absolutely cannot agree and with appropriate points.

Politically, she is correct because the voting power and political movement doesn't pay attention to its minority constituents.
You and every vocal atheist on TOL is from the left. As a general and overwhelming observation, she is correct. Oddly, as she says liberals conflate facts to suit their needs, isn't this an example of exactly that?

First: Not an atheist.
Second: to quote Goska
"but never, in all my years of leftist activism, did I ever hear anyone articulate accurately the position of anyone to our right."

Just exchange left and right and you have an equally true statement

Well, we aren't out busting windows, bricking cops, stealing from stores we just vandalized, or burning cars... Can you find me that youtube riot? This goes back to reading too much into that relative truth, "white" lies and ends justify the means type of discussion she was observing and reporting, doesn't it?

You might want to get off your high horse before you get a nose bleed. You can go search YouTube yourself for riot footage. while you are avoiding doing that take a moment to consider that there are no calls to lynch Trump, no effigies of him dangling from a noose.

Second: to quote Goska
"but never, in all my years of leftist activism, did I ever hear anyone articulate accurately the position of anyone to our right."

Just exchange left and right and you have an equally true statement

With exceptions, such as it being okay to slant truth one's way. It rings "'Fair' is for sissies." *(more at the end)

Originally Posted by MrDante

You might want to get off your high horse before you get a nose bleed.

How very appropriate when we are talking about rioting in the streets. Good on you for seeing what's true.

Originally Posted by MrDante

You can go search YouTube yourself for riot footage. while you are avoiding doing that take a moment to consider that there are no calls to lynch Trump, no effigies of him dangling from a noose.

I live near Seattle. We don't have Republican rioting idiots. We DO have rioting, stopping freeway traffic, kids skipping school. Yep, you guessed it, not a Republican amongst them. I will have a long lonely search for Republicans rioting in the streets of Seattle on YouTube. It doesn't exist. You can go to one of our rallies around WA DC when we are protesting abortion. You won't get a nosebleed. You are safe. Big difference. You are in the town of Denial, Mr. Inferno.

He reports what he believes is true. Do I agree with all his facts? No, but he does. Percentages: He is right more often than not.

*Some 'lies' are actual counter-lies and you've bought propaganda. Lies upon lies, but I'd rather think you a dupe than a purposeful liar. I've met enough of the actual liars, and they do lie habitually. I really don't know of a conservative, that lies with any purpose. They may believe a report they shouldn't but don't know better. A fear of God on our side is a large deterrent. What does your side have to keep that from happening? Anything?

With exceptions, such as it being okay to slant truth one's way. It rings "'Fair' is for sissies." *(more at the end)

How very appropriate when we are talking about rioting in the streets. Good on you for seeing what's true.

I live near Seattle. We don't have Republican rioting idiots. We DO have rioting, stopping freeway traffic, kids skipping school. Yep, you guessed it, not a Republican amongst them.

I don't live in an area where there is any rioting and if there were unlike you I probably wouldn't spend time surveying the rioters to discover just how many were republicans or democrats.
You of course did survey your local rioters, if you had not than you couldn't claim there were no republicans among them.
Or is this a "slanty truth" thing?

I will have a long lonely search for Republicans rioting in the streets of Seattle on YouTube. It doesn't exist. You can go to one of our rallies around WA DC when we are protesting abortion. You won't get a nosebleed. You are safe. Big difference. You are in the town of Denial, Mr. Inferno.

In Seattle? You had better sit down, it sounds like you overexerted yourself moving those goalposts.

He reports what he believes is true. Do I agree with all his facts? No, but he does. Percentages: He is right more often than not.

but I'd rather think you a dupe than a purposeful liar. I've met enough of the actual liars, and they do lie habitually. I really don't know of a conservative, that lies with any purpose. They may believe a report they shouldn't but don't know better. A fear of God on our side is a large deterrent. What does your side have to keep that from happening? Anything?

I don't live in an area where there is any rioting and if there were unlike you I probably wouldn't spend time surveying the rioters to discover just how many were republicans or democrats.
You of course did survey your local rioters, if you had not than you couldn't claim there were no republicans among them.
Or is this a "slanty truth" thing?

Yeah, they were rioting Trump. You are a funny and mindlessly skeptical guy. All of them were left-protests. Would a 'right' Republican be rioting with them? You are a weird guy.

Originally Posted by MrDante

In Seattle? You had better sit down, it sounds like you overexerted yourself moving those goalposts.

You can sit all you like. Thanks for playing. You are being obtuse. Ask, don't tell. You surmise, then assert wrongly.

Originally Posted by MrDante

I was discussing YOUR claims.

Not with any credibility you weren't. I've seen the news this past decade. You? Snarky and dismissing. Go ahead. See you later perhaps. If you are going to enter a thread, try to bring the discussion up to par or don't enter? Just a thought. Do as you like.

Originally Posted by MrDante

Like your claims about the APA for example

I didn't give you the "APA" link you wished for Christmas. You wished upon a Christmas star, I asked if you were 'gay' since you thought it was "Christmas" and then I gave you the center for health and disease in three countries. Even now, you are still wishing upon a star because you don't deal in realities. So I gave up giving you links, because you don't look at them anyway. Lazy and uninformed is your modus operandi, so far. Everybody has an opinion. We don't all have 'informed' ones though. Just us who read.

Originally Posted by MrDante

fear of God is a deterrent to fact checking?

Ah, so you are almost trolling with passing interest and uninformed opinion. Okay. That's alright, I just mistook you for being concerned about the topic. My bad. -Lon

Yeah, they were rioting Trump. You are a funny and mindlessly skeptical guy. All of them were left-protests. Would a 'right' Republican be rioting with them? You are a weird guy.

so "slanty truth" I thought as much

You can sit all you like. Thanks for playing. You are being obtuse. Ask, don't tell. You surmise, then assert wrongly.

Do you know what "moving the goal post" means?

Not with any credibility you weren't. I've seen the news this past decade. You? Snarky and dismissing. Go ahead. See you later perhaps. If you are going to enter a thread, try to bring the discussion up to par or don't enter? Just a thought. Do as you like.

I confronted your claim with multiple references and documentation from people who were present and involved at the time.

You are a fine one to accuse others of "conflate facts to suit their needs"

I didn't give you the "APA" link you wished for Christmas. You wished upon a Christmas star,

I asked if you used a couple specific "studies" to make your claims you didn't reference.

I asked if you were 'gay' since you thought it was "Christmas" and then I gave you the center for health and disease in three countries.

and you eventually provided. well isn't that a surprise... you have never referenced this claim at all.

Even now, you are still wishing upon a star because you don't deal in realities. So I gave up giving you links, because you don't look at them anyway. Lazy and uninformed is your modus operandi, so far. Everybody has an opinion. We don't all have 'informed' ones though. Just us who read.
Ah, so you are almost trolling with passing interest and uninformed opinion. Okay. That's alright, I just mistook you for being concerned about the topic. My bad. -Lon