Jamal Khashoggi: THIS is Canada’s Time to Become the REAL “Shining City Upon a Hill”

They are gambling … based on historical realities … that time will work in THEIR favour in softening world anger and even attention to their barbaric murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

And American President Donald Trump is already helping them out: buying into the LATEST Saudi lies … that neither Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Salman nor the Saudi government had any role in the brutal killing, dismembering and likely dissolving in acid the corpse of the Washington Post columnist; Trump also suggesting that even if the Saudi leadership was involved, the US and the world should not let that disrupt rich business deals.

Disgusting!

So much for former US president Ronald Reagan’s once popular claim that the US represents to the world a “shining city upon a hill.”

Not any more!

This is time for Canada …. the ONLY country that stood up to Saudi barbarism even before the Khashoggi slaughter took place and, despite paying a price for bin Salman’s temper tantrum, has not backed down or apologized … to show WE are the REAL Shining City upon a Hill.

WE must not let Khashoggi’s murder be forgotten or pushed aside for business-as-usual; WE must continue to stand up against Saudi lies, coverups and threats.

And at the upcoming G-20 Summit, Canada should … and could … lead the world in NOT FORGETTING and NOT DROPPING the Khashoggi murder until justice is done.

Canada should … and could … embarrass other nations by setting the example and standard with our ONGOING ACTIONS until the Saudis come clean.

How?

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau should CUT/BAN oil imports from Saudi Arabia … until it demonstrably shows it is capable of joining the civilized world by telling the TRUTH, outing those truly responsible for Khashoggi’s murder, and releasing ALL their imprisoned, tortured civil rights advocates.

Canada could easily find alternatives to Saudi oil.

Canada should also BAN any further military vehicle sales to Saudi Arabia and CANCEL existing contracts, if we are able to legally do so.

More than 85,000 CHILDREN alone …. on top of innocent adult civilians … have died in Yemen during the war between the Saudi/UAE coalition and Iranian-backed Houti rebels.

A pox on all of them … and we don’t need the Saudis’ filthy funds that badly to deliver more military hardware to them for it.

Canada should set the example AGAIN for the world … standing up to the Saudis … and not letting the Khashoggi murder drop from the world’s attention.

WE must not let the Saudis … and Trump … get away with their latest brutal affront to humanity.

24 responses so far ↓

Of course this should also apply to ALL dictatorships that abuse human rights around the globe, including China and other Middle East nations. Let’s finally do the walk to match our talk.

(Response: That would be ideal .. but the reality is we can only take on so much ourselves … and Saudi Arabia’s widespread oppression, barbarity and lies should be in the forefront when they are crass and brazen enough to murder a visitor in their own consulate, cut the corpse up with an imported “diplomatic” bone saw and apparently then dissolve the body in acid. h.o)

How a political bent made people so spineless and soulless in my lifetime is amazing.

De-evolution?

Just look at a Trump rally for proof of that.

(Response: Actually, many conservatives in many countries do have ideological and fiscal beliefs they stand behind: what has happened in the US is a terrible aberration … where far too many Republicans have turned their backs on beliefs they once espoused … but not ALL have done so> Hopefully the Republicans in the House and the Senate will save the US from Trump totally disgracing that country in the Khashoggi case. h.o.)

World anger?
I’m sorry Harvey, you are flogging a dead one here.
This file will go nowhere.

The “world” is mostly unaware of Khashoggi beyond “oh yeah, I saw something about that.”

It is a small matter on the dung heap of world issues that few people pay a mind to.

If your wish were to come true and Canada were to do something, it would be lip service. Being in the top few of “most reputable” carries no weight as we are not taken seriously on any topic.

As nice and decent as we are, our loud neighbour is much more exciting.

(Responding: Standing up for human rights and justice is NEVER “flogging a dead horse”. Ask the civil rights workers/protestors/campaigners who fought for decades against discrimination against women, Jews, blacks, gays, Muslims etc etc. h.o)

I thought you might get defensive and considered ending my last post with a caution that I was not disrespecting your position OR denouncing “Standing up for human rights and justice.” Quite the opposite actually; I admire your plodding tenacity on this topic.

My point is, it will go nowhere and thumping the drum for Canadian action is the flogging bit.

I’m not even saying Canada should not stand up and be heard; just that it will not be heard and the bigger question should be; why does the “world” not care.

Of course, it’s all just my opinion, right?

(Response: Absolutely happy to publish your opinions … even when you disagree with mine and thus are clearly wrong. 🙂 But that’s democracy and freedom of expression … which I support (hopefully as long as people stick at least CLOSE to topic) and that’s why I believe Canada SHOULD and MUST not let up on the Saudis and the rest of the democracies until justice is achieved for Khashoggi … ad even others still being tortured and facing death in Saudi Arabia for just blogging or free speech and human rights.h.o.)

Harvey please don’t encourage the KID to beat that drum any longer. He needs to start doing something for our economy. Enough standing up for human rights and women’s rights. He’s said enough on those situations. It’s time to impress the world that Canada is a great place to invest.
Our TSX and dollar are indications that NOBODY wants to invest here. TOO WEAK A GOVERNMENT. No backbone. The kid needs to go along with the liberals.

(Response: Canada is a very talented and rich country: the government CAN multi-task … running our economy at the same time as standing up for human rights and calling out the oppressors like the Saudis who act barbarically not only inside their borders but now even more boldly, in other states as well. By saying and doing nothing .. we would let our own values down and become no better than Trump and the US is now. No thanks …Not for me!! h.o.)

KMX for export oil to China, imports to the east 11% of which come from Saudi Arabia, LAV’s (not used in the Yemen conflict/proxy war), UN security council attempts (check out who is on this council, hardly stalwarts in human rights in many cases), while almost no realeffort to stem the importation of fentanyl etc. through our docks which does benefit the mostly Asian manufacturers, distributors and sales folks.

Once common sense is employed to delve deep into the current govt’s choices on trade vs. their talking points on human rights etc. we fail fairly significantly on most accounts.

If the Khashoggi issue has the chance to become defining moment for Canada, the trade issues with serial human rights assaulting regimes requires a severe reset, the talking points and indignation of our leaders should reflect as much.

Just my thoughts which are mine alone and many questions which arise from the govt. soapboxes.

(Response: We can always do more and better. However, when others are doing almost nothing …or even worse, condoning and supporting human rights abuses and even murders … Canada is a rich enough country and hopefully a principled enough country to exercise its duty to speak out and take actions to at least curb the worst abuses and cruelties … like the Khashoggi case. h.o.)

I would not pretend to have the answer but without getting into an argument that cannot be won on this Blog I must point out the fact that for as long as we can remember so-called Civilized Democracies have co operated with Strong Man Thugs and other Human Rights Criminals.

It was not all that long ago that Roosevelt, Truman, and Churchill became allies with Joseph Stalin perhaps next to Hitler the most Evil Person that ever lived. other than a Conservative of course.

(Edited..off topic. h.o)
I must echo the sentiments of Hawg. I applaud your tenacity on this matter Harvey. I wonder why you qualified the arms to the Saudis with “if legal” Its anyone’s right to violate contractual obligations as long as your ready to face the consequences.
You would think that when selling arms to dictators you might put language in the contract that allows you to back out when the dictator murders his own citizens . You would also think that the sale of arms to murderous regimes might come with certain caveats. I guess when selling arms to the Saudis the restrictions and caveats are actually measured in barrels of oil.

Gene the Bean at 2, it is not only right wingers who have a price. If we go back in time you will find the left wingers haven’t always been all that righteous and from time to time, they aren’t in modern times either.

Canada can’t save the world and we can’t change governments in other countries, however, this case is different. We can and ought to stand up and speak out. Our P.M. and Ms. Freeland can speak out and doing so at the G-20 is the right place to do so.

The Saudi’s killing some one they don’t like isn’t new. Its that the President of the U.S.A. has publicly said he’s o.k. with it. that is the problem. Trump, as President of the U.S.A., says the Saudis can continue to move in “polite society”. When Putin thought it was a good idea to invade Ukraine and didn’t seem to care that a jet shot out of the sky, the next international meeting which I believe was in Australia, he left early because no one was speaking to him.

Trump talks about how much business Saudi Arabia does with the U.S.A, but as some American politicians have pointed out, that is not true. They do more business with Canada, Japan, Mexico, China, etc.

Saudi Arabia murdered a journalist who was an American resident, who worked for an American newspaper and he was murdered because the Saudi’s didn’t like what he wrote. IF all the countries take the position Trump has we are well on our way to loosing freedom of speech and freedom of the press and giving the Saudis a pass.

Other countries make no bones about who and what they are, but the Saudis have always tried to pass themselves off as part of the “civilized” world. It time to send them the message, they are a bunch of barbaric thugs who are not welcome at the next cocktail party and that goes for Trump also. In my opinion it would not be beyond the realm that the Saudi’s had the approval of the Trumps prior to the event. It ought to be remembered Jared did have a visit with SbM not to long before the murder.

The Crown Prince and Trump both need to be called out in public on this issue. IF nothing else it would be fun to watch.

e.a.f. at 10;
Your ideals along with those of most others on this particular topic are, like the HO original, commendable.

I can’t argue with anyone who says Canada should step up, speak out take the lead but that is where reality whoops idealism.
No.
One.
Will.
Listen.

A few weeks ago Harvey talked about the failure of our leaders at the USMCA negotiations. Our kids, though they bragged about standing up to the US, were really only tolerated, like the young mom who wants cell phones banned from the grade one classroom. This week’s GM announcement is the proof in that pudding. “Yeah, yeah, Canada, whatever.”

Same thing with the Saudis; we are nice, naïve, amateurs whom no one will take seriously. The world will continue to put maple leafs on their backpacks but laugh at our cute, inept leaders.

(Response: Thank Heaven that many, many people don’t buy into your defeatist “no one will listen” attitude. Public discussions, protests, demands HAVE changed MANY things in the world … right back to the Magna Carta … and most of for the better. Just imagine what our civil rights, labour conditions, voting rights etc etc etc would be with your “No one will listen” attitude. True…change doesn’t happen easily or quickly and true sometimes we do not effect change … but looking at how the Western world has evolved, MOSTLY through demands for change, I admire those who push for change rather than those we will never win. h.o.)

Harvey, this mess is a no win for Canada. Trudeau had better think before he acts, Canada can not afford another diplomatic misstep by the PM’s amateur team.

If Trudeau wants to put together a coalition of nations and respond as a unified voice, then all the power to him. Give’r Kid.

But, if he wants to act alone on behalf of Canada he’ll make a bad situation worse.

Unfortunately, if a sovereign nation wants to extra judiciously execute one of its own citizens in a foreign country there is precedent. And it’s not a right or left ideology issue as Bean would like to steer the issue.

The precedent stems from the US execution of Anwar al-Awlaki, a US Citizen executed by Presidential Order in Yemen 2011. Who was President in 2011? That’s right, the liberal demi-god himself, Obama.

If anyone wants to vilify Trump for his response to the khashoggi murder, but look the other way on Obama ordering the murder of a US citizen, then they should be called out as a partisan hack.

Simply put, extrajudicial execution by the State is wrong.

If Trudeau (or anyone else) wants to condemn Trump but praise Obama, then they are a hypocrite driven by party not ethics.

(Response: I certainly agree a coalition of caring countries is the best way to go and I believe that IS achievable IF a country like Canada leads the way, speaks up and works publicly and behind the scenes to keep up the pressure on the Saudis. But they must do more than talk: action is needed now, before the world forgets and moves on … giving the Saudis a pass. h.o.)

I stand by my earlier Posts and freely admit that atrocities like what happened to Khashoggi are Horrific but ……………

I do however have a question.

Harvey and other suggest Canada should stand up and be counte3d on this but what about the UN? Where are they on this?

Why would not a World Leader like PM Justin make a Speech regarding this and other similar Atrocities are given World Wide Attention?

PM Justin is doing Back Flips and Cart Wheels doing his best to be recognized and appreciated as a “States People Kind” here is his chance.

Trump took NATO, the EU Trade, China, NOKO Iran, and many others to task on the World Platform and in fact the EU, and many other Nations joined in to force change in Trade Practices, Nuke Deals, and much more.

I do not have much respect for PM JT,I do not take him seriously, and I believe he is and will do Great Harm to Canada but why would he not call Saudi Arabia out on a World Stage like the UN?

Personally I believe if he did the Saudi King might be forced into at least Firing MBS and replacing with another Flavour of the Day Crown Prince.

What do we have to lose.

Having said all of that the West, Israel, other Middle Eastern Nations against Iran, and the rest of the Free World cannot afford to lose Saudi Arabia as an Ally. Even worse we cannot afford to lose them to the likes of China, Russia, or any other Rogue Nation.

A change at the top for Saudi Arabia might not satisfy Harvey or many others on this Blog but at least it be a beginning.

Also keep in mind that Turkey has Killed more Journalists than just about any other World Nation.

(Response: I have written before about how infected the UN is … the General Assembly and several UN agencies are so corrupted, politically biased and controlled and manipulated by Arab dictatorships and those subservient countries financially beholden to them. So if GREAT rich nations like the US wont do anything, don’t expect poorer lesser states to act. But Canada has the ability and the wealth and the independence to stand tall … and be counted on the side of justice and human freedoms and basic rights …so we should!! And then, wont it also be interesting to see how Scheer and the Tories react? h.o)

Diverdarren, you pulled it all together nicely and didn’t have to go back 8 centuries to bolster your points.

Your take on the kid in the sari and Argyle socks is pretty accurate and is why I maintain no one will take Canada seriously and those who would coalesce are just too damn busy with their own survival.

‘if you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch” is about as apt as it gets.

BCMQ, I NOTE you wrote trump has taken others to task at the U.N. etc /trump can say what he wants. He is considered a joke around the world. they first humoured him with flattery and big parades. that didn’t work, so now its ignore the idiot. he will pander to Russia and Saudi arabia, but he needs their money or rather his companies do.
trump is helping his country become a racist back water. Pompeo and Mattis are peddling the line and lies. To hold onto their positions, they will prostitute themselves and deflect, deflect, deflect. They haven’t even the balls to listen to the tapes. As they have all said, why would they, they don’t speak the language. How stupid do they think we are. You don’t need to speak the language to understand the barbarism which would be on the tapes. They just don’t have the balls. Fat old men in too tight suits.

trump’s base isn’t going to like loosing more jobs when GM. closes those factories and there is nothing he can do about it. G.M. may just have done enough to get trump to switch of the swagger. I’m sure the international community is having a good laugh, especially China because their government has been putting money into electric car factories at such a rate some don’t think it can be sustained. It never was for China though. its for the U.S.A., so as trump starts to look like MbS’s bitch, with his new racist senator from Mississippi…………….

Comparing trudeau to Trump is like comparing a child to an adult. Even my auto correct just capitalized Trump.
I am neither surprised or disappointed. A bit bankrupt maybe. As long as Canada has a leader that doesnt command respect I doubt we will shine on this hill.

I hate to confuse you with facts but my references to Trump, the U.S. and changes and improvements to the Silly Juvenile, Inept, Impotent, Egotistical Michelle Obama Policies are there for all to see. A Failed President.

NOKO much safer, even you must recognize that, , Iran who profited from Obama and made no changes is now on it’s Knees, , ISIS who are all but decapitated, , 28 NATO Nations all but Canada who are finally spending the 2% of their GDP on Defense, Fair Trade Deals with AMCA, The Eu Trade Deals upcoming which was endorsed by Juncker, lowest unemployment for any group including Blacks and Hispanics in U.S. History, Finally control and care of Migration and the Mexican Border, and so many more.

Look Trump can be Boorish, Rude, Aggressive, Outlandish at times and even Orange but within two years there will be no Legacy of the Disengaged Obama and his Presidency.

Yes more needs to be done with Healthcare, DACA, Russia, less Tweeting and outlandish statements but contrary to what you are selling things are much better in the U.S. and the rest of the World.

As to the ridiculous Racism charges against Trump? Silly!

Anti Semitism? Explain that to his Jewish Daughter, Son in Law, and their Children and his two Sons their Jewish Wives and Jewish Grand Children.

And while we are here ask the good people of Israel, I was recently in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and Trump is a Hero there, they are naming their Square in Jerusalem after Trump did not see that for your man Obama. Obama threw Israel and it’s People under the Bus.

You and Harvey and others may very well be correct about taking a hard line on Saudi Arabia regarding Khashoggi and I agree I do not like much about Saudi Arabia but choices are made and not everyone agrees.

I urge you to read the Lawrence Solomon Column I attached up the page, you may recall I have been saying the very same thing about many Rogue Nations including Stalin’s Russia, current Putin and others.

“The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend”.

I also refer you to the Post by Diver – 12, it explains some facts very nicely.

Trust me EU Liberals do not like Trump and they resort to name calling and mockery but ask yourself the question. Is the World overall better off under Trump or President “O”?

The World needs Accountability from China, NOKO, Iran, Russia, and the rest and we certainly were not going to get it from Leadership like “O”, PM JT, Merkel, Juncker, Lofven, former Hollande, Renzi, and the rest.

Look at Europe, it is literally “Circling and Drain” and in Mid Collapse.

Yes the Assassination of Khashoggi was Horrific, Barbaric, and Gut Wrenching, what do you think Warrior Kings Barack Obama, Juncker, PM JT, Merkel, and your Heroes at the UN would do about that?

Perhaps you might explain, I am quite sure the Khashoggi Family would be eager to hear your Fix for that.

Something else to keep in mind, about 60% of the Electricity Generated in the U.S. comes from Coal Fired Plants, China gets over 80% of it’s Electricty from Coal Fired Plants, just how clean is the Electric Car? Educate yourself.

The whole Electric Car thing is a Scam. Unless you have Hydro Electric or Nuclear Power Plants you get absolutely NO benefit from EV’s.

Again, the best place to take Saudi Arabia the King and MBS is in the United Nations but the Political Appointees there are too busy trying to figure out which Champagne and which Caviar they will Feast on Tonight to orry about Khashoggi and other World Problems.

By the way, you will very happy to har that Trump even though he will have a successful First Term will not seek re-election, he will be an old man and he will have had enough by the end of 3 years.

Pence will take Nikki Haley as his Vice Presidential Running Mate. She will make a Great Female Visible Minority President in 10 years.

You can Bet that Haley will take the U.N., to task for their Uncaring Ignorance and Disengagement on things like the Khashooggi Slaughter.

Without control of Migration, Defined Borders and the Ability to Defend those Borders you have NO country.

Simply ask the People of the EU, not the Dreaming Politicians. who have sold them out and ruined their Countries and Cultures forever.

Harvey may very well be correct about the Khashoggi matter he makes a good case for his argument unfortunately rightly or wrongly I believe my view of the “Bigger Picture”
is most important for the World.

(Response: It’s not enough. Canada should do something against the Saudi leadership and the Saudi state …not just their pawns. Hopefully Canada will urge the same and more at the G-20 meeting this weekend. h.o.)

Of course travel won’t be much of an issue, as they are already in a Saudi jail.

Also, it seems that Trump has frozen the assets and restricted access to the same Saudis… Back on November 15. So, it seems Trudeau is leading this charge from the rear.

eaf, your post may have been cathartic for you, but it seems President Trump “had the balls” as you put it, 14days before our PM. You can spread the MSNBC talking points, but to simply put it, it doesn’t matter which President is in the White House, this is diplomatic quagmire.

Like BMCQ is saying, this is an imperfect world, sometimes nations can act with impunity because there can be bigger issues at play.

An immediate response is not always necessary to get justice. I doubt the Americans will forget being put in this situation by the Saudis.

(Response: Canada’s action is a good start .. but it’s not enough. The 17 were just the “soldiers” in the Saudi operation and I suspect if we wait a year or so, “charges” will all be dropped. Canada and other nations with any integrity must also act against whoever sent them: let’s keep it real … no one gets beyond the lobby of any embassy or consulate without special clearance … unless they’re expected, especially if one of them is carrying a bone saw! The Saudi story is so ludicrous …it’s almost ghoulishly funny … but no one is laughing. h.o.)

Prime Minister Justin has just announced that he has Uh taken Uh Firm Uh Action and Uh imposed a Travel Ban and Frozen all Funds and other assets of Gravilo Princip the Assasin of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

I am impressed, what a “Statesman” he is, oops, I mean “States People Kind”!

The 17 Saudis “sanctioned” by Canada are a collection of low level “soldiers” carrying out orders which, if not obeyed would have cost them one head each. Mansour Othman ABAHUSSAIN, is reported to have been one of the grunts ordered to cart off the pieces.

Granted, the sanctioned Al-Qahtani was considered a friend and close adviser of bin Salman, who fired him after Khashoggi’s death. He is believed to be one of the two men who planned and ordered the murder, along with former deputy Saudi intelligence chief Ahmed al-Assiri, who was not targeted by the sanctions.

The crown prince was also not sanctioned and by all accounts, the assignation order flowed down from him.

As pointed out by Diverdarren, these sanctions did not lead, but followed, actions by others; the diplomatic version of “me too.”

Will the Prince get the cold shoulder at the summit? Probably. But it will be a public shun, well scripted, and discussed beforehand. Cue the camera on the missed handshake.
Canada’s sanctions are against individuals who likely have no Canadian assets of significance to freeze and it would be interesting to see how many times, if ever they have visited Canada.

I understood your Post – 19 and I more or less agree with your analysis – 19 – 23.

There may be changes of names, jobs, and even a phoney story regarding subjects but how will anyone other than insiders really know.

As we have discussed, it is “A Tough League Out There” and Khashoggi, Hawgwash, 13, BMCQ, or another are really just Collateralteral Damage considering the “Big Picture”.

I do not like it but I understand it.

PM Justin simply paid it Lip Service and more than likely everyone else at the G – 20 will avoid making a scene.

Of course almost all here will deny it happened but I always admired and respect Canadian PM Harper when he called out Putin Face to Face and Eye to Eye in front of the World reagarding Crimea during a Summit a few years ago.