(04-02-2017 04:04 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote: Why would I think the police were bought off? That makes no sense. It's an unnecessary complication.

Neither does "documented and video-recorded evidence" (that shows no identities) count as evidence for your side, nor a rebuttal of my idea. That's just evidence that the event occurred, not evidence of who and/or what was behind the incident. The only evidence we do have are two apparent randoms who had no connection to the group receiving the blame.

But no, I don't think it takes a government agency to pull off... or all that much funding. I do, however, find it more plausible that it would be someone's propaganda effort than for a group of organized liberals to do pretty much the opposite of what liberals actually believe. Like during COINTELPRO, the groups that went beyond the peaceful aims of the peace movement were prompted and aided in going beyond by professionals undercover in their groups.

Likewise, the only reason I can think to observe behavior in a group that I have only ever before observed, and thus associated, with the goose-stepping right wingers, is that there is something going on that is counter to the narrative I'm being told. If evidence comes out that proves me wrong in this, I am all too glad to acknowledge it (but remain perplexed why such illiberal--as you put it--behavior is occurring among people who supposedly share liberal values), yet my instinct tells me that this is not what it seems. And I believe I have historical precedent for this belief.

They aren't liberal. They are illiberal left wingers who coopt the term liberal because it's politically convenient and expedient to do so. They've made 'liberal' a dirty word, and I won't take it without a fight. People like Sarah Silverman who is calling for a military coup d'etat against Trump is a perfect example of how these these left wing illiberal extremists think. As you've succinctly pointed out - these people are not liberal, which is why I refuse to call them such without sarcasm, or quotations.

(04-02-2017 04:04 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote: Why would I think the police were bought off? That makes no sense. It's an unnecessary complication.

Neither does "documented and video-recorded evidence" (that shows no identities) count as evidence for your side, nor a rebuttal of my idea. That's just evidence that the event occurred, not evidence of who and/or what was behind the incident. The only evidence we do have are two apparent randoms who had no connection to the group receiving the blame.

But no, I don't think it takes a government agency to pull off... or all that much funding. I do, however, find it more plausible that it would be someone's propaganda effort than for a group of organized liberals to do pretty much the opposite of what liberals actually believe. Like during COINTELPRO, the groups that went beyond the peaceful aims of the peace movement were prompted and aided in going beyond by professionals undercover in their groups.

Likewise, the only reason I can think to observe behavior in a group that I have only ever before observed, and thus associated, with the goose-stepping right wingers, is that there is something going on that is counter to the narrative I'm being told. If evidence comes out that proves me wrong in this, I am all too glad to acknowledge it (but remain perplexed why such illiberal--as you put it--behavior is occurring among people who supposedly share liberal values), yet my instinct tells me that this is not what it seems. And I believe I have historical precedent for this belief.

They aren't liberal. They are illiberal left wingers who coopt the term liberal because it's politically convenient and expedient to do so. They've made 'liberal' a dirty word, and I won't take it without a fight. People like Sarah Silverman who is calling for a military coup d'etat against Trump is a perfect example of how these these left wing illiberal extremists think. As you've succinctly pointed out - these people are not liberal, which is why I refuse to call them such without sarcasm, or quotations.

And you've made words despite the points of how words and language actually shift around and create multiple interpretations.

If these points were anything but silly wish washing of giving a damn about narrow nonsensical label designating there might be a interesting topic to ponder.

It's just stupid no true Scotsmaning labels

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson

(04-02-2017 05:03 AM)Dark Light Wrote: They aren't liberal. They are illiberal left wingers who coopt the term liberal because it's politically convenient and expedient to do so. They've made 'liberal' a dirty word, and I won't take it without a fight. People like Sarah Silverman who is calling for a military coup d'etat against Trump is a perfect example of how these these left wing illiberal extremists think. As you've succinctly pointed out - these people are not liberal, which is why I refuse to call them such without sarcasm, or quotations.

And you've made words despite the points of how words and language actually shift around and create multiple interpretations.

If these points were anything but silly wish washing of giving a damn about narrow nonsensical label designating there might be a interesting topic to ponder.

It's just stupid no true Scotsmaning labels

I've been saying that for pages and all I got for a response was a series of straw men and being called "disgusting" and a "twat." Good luck

(04-02-2017 05:03 AM)Dark Light Wrote: They aren't liberal. They are illiberal left wingers who coopt the term liberal because it's politically convenient and expedient to do so. They've made 'liberal' a dirty word, and I won't take it without a fight. People like Sarah Silverman who is calling for a military coup d'etat against Trump is a perfect example of how these these left wing illiberal extremists think. As you've succinctly pointed out - these people are not liberal, which is why I refuse to call them such without sarcasm, or quotations.

And you've made words despite the points of how words and language actually shift around and create multiple interpretations.

If these points were anything but silly wish washing of giving a damn about narrow nonsensical label designating there might be a interesting topic to ponder.

It's just stupid no true Scotsmaning labels

Labels are only meaningful if they have ideas behind them. If "literally" can mean "literally" or "figuratively" then you'd better make it clear which you mean, but conflating the two meanings and pretending they are equal to one another because the masquerade behind the same label is non-sense.

(04-02-2017 07:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote: And you've made words despite the points of how words and language actually shift around and create multiple interpretations.

If these points were anything but silly wish washing of giving a damn about narrow nonsensical label designating there might be a interesting topic to ponder.

It's just stupid no true Scotsmaning labels

I've been saying that for pages and all I got for a response was a series of straw men and being called "disgusting" and a "twat." Good luck

Yes. The only thing the poor, innocent, and weak BeardedDude did was argue that he didn't like my label....then under cover over darkness I lept from behind like a vampire, sucking him of his blood and ruthlessly leaving him for dead. What kind of monster would do such a thing!? My god, have I no soul?

It's not that hard to see why some people think Trump has fascist tendencies. He praised the Chinese government for how it handled the Tiananmen Square protests, ffs. He also has this weird "only strength matters, if you're not strong you're weak" mentality that dictators tend to have.

(04-02-2017 07:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote: And you've made words despite the points of how words and language actually shift around and create multiple interpretations.

If these points were anything but silly wish washing of giving a damn about narrow nonsensical label designating there might be a interesting topic to ponder.

It's just stupid no true Scotsmaning labels

Labels are only meaningful if they have ideas behind them. If "literally" can mean "literally" or "figuratively" then you'd better make it clear which you mean, but conflating the two meanings and pretending they are equal to one another because the masquerade behind the same label is non-sense.

Nonsense itself is quite meaningful.

Labels and symbols and other communication forms aren't even going to be static, they can't. But certain fields like politics and sports are filled with dozens of terms with zero consistency in meaning. You can ask groups if people to define a term and get half a dozen working definitions.

Liberal comes from a term noting freeness. It can apply to all ways. Even authortian religious conservatives have liberal stances on ideas. Sure they want freedom from fear and secularism. But in the political sphere words don't all latch to a root to become what it stands for anymore.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson

(04-02-2017 08:32 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: It's not that hard to see why some people think Trump has fascist tendencies. He praised the Chinese government for how it handled the Tiananmen Square protests, ffs. He also has this weird "only strength matters, if you're not strong you're weak" mentality that dictators tend to have.

He would probably gladly turn us into a fascist state if his puppeteer Bannon decided to give him the go ahead