July 23, 2011

The prime minister, Jens Stoltenberg said: “Compared to other countries I wouldn’t say we have a big problem with right-wing extremists in Norway... But we have had some groups, we have followed them before, and our police is aware that there are some right-wing groups.”

He looks like this:

Adjust your stereotypes accordingly.

A Facebook page matching his name and the photo given out by the police was set up just a few days ago. It listed his religion as Christian and his politics as conservative. It said he enjoys hunting, the video games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and books including Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and George Orwell’s “1984.”

So, this is the information he wanted you to find. Assuming he set up this page and he is the murderer, these statement could either be precisely true, deliberate misinformation, or something in between.

The man knows about Machiavelli. What would Machiavelli post on Facebook before embarking on a massacre?

ADDED: Of course, disinformation is a big theme in Orwell’s "1984." I'm tempted to say that the cues that his statements are lies are so strong that they suggest paradoxically that he is not lying.

Back in Norway, the press has been spinning this as "A ONE MAN OPERATION."

Heck, even buying 9-tons of fertilizer didn't raise any eyeballs. How much fertilizer to do need to stick into a vegetable garden? How was it stored? Did it arrive by truck? Was it just a "penny a ton?" So, he got change from a dime?

because no one stopped "the policeman" ... he managed to kill to the last bullet he had. On Utoya Island. Where the prime minister was expected. Is that why the grenades didn't go off?

Oh, and you're told this blond dude is a "christian." No. He is not! The first photo of him has him in a MASONIC apron! Hello, if you're a bonafide Mason, you don't belong to any Christian outfit. Masons are in a league all their own.

Masons are a SECRET SOCIETY. Right there, you've got a membership list!

What's the beef?

Oh, about the same as any card carrying Nazi would hold.

Fits the "blond and blue-eyed" description quite well. Hitler would have been proud.

Up ahead, Norway will twist itself in knots. I don't think they have a death penalty.

The one advantage, however, is that in Norway they speak Norwegian. So, there's a good chance you won't understand a word.

Some summer camp arrangement! Seems kids just toodle off into the forest ... on an island only reachable by ferry. And, there's no police/fire or medic presence. Pray tell, why not?

Woodstock had a medical tent set up. And, phone banks.

Here? Oslo lost its Internet connection for some reason. The entire city was put into lock down. And, no communications at all was allowed.

Definitely not one nut!

Definitely being spun.

Seems odd.

Oslo is not the safest place on earth! But as long as the news spins, you'll never find out.

What I see the Norwegian police saying so far is just what this crazy person posted about himself on Facebook. They still do not know any more about him than that.

As for the "right-wing ideology" and "Christian fundamentalist," this will depend partly on what Breivk understood by the terms he used and equally much by what the police and government spokespersons lay into these terms.

Both of these terms are Americanisms to start with, and I am surprised to see them used by the Norwegian authorities. Perhaps it is just trying to make themselves understood in English to foreign, especially American, journalists shouting questions at them, but it is still jarring.

It does sound to me like Anders Breivik is mentally unbalanced and has bought into the old Nazi and Quisling fairytale history and racial theories, but the Nazis and the Quislings were both National Socialist parties, i.e., leftwing aberrations, there was nothing "right-wing" about them.

As for "Christian fundamentalist," I do not even know what that would be in Norwegian terms. I have always thought this was a regional thing of the American South.

the Nazis and the Quislings were both National Socialist parties, i.e., leftwing aberrations, there was nothing "right-wing" about them.

Except, of course, their support base, the way they defined themselves and the right-wing European political traditions (which are different from most varieties of American conservatism) they drew strength and membership from. Maybe next you can continue telling us about how Tim McVeigh wouldn't do something like this (the day care center in the Murrah Federal Building notwithstanding), as you were doing on another thread on this topic. Great analysis.

1. He's a Norwegian nationalist guy. Why is the page in English, and why are the cultural products mentioned (books, TV, games) primarily English-language? I'm assuming the answer for being in English is that he wanted the biggest possible audience for presenting himself, but why the lack of Norwegian content? It seems like the Facebook page, which was very recently concocted, was created for our benefit, as part of his post-massacre publicity package. It may not be exactly Breivik as acquaintances would recognize him, but it's how Breivik chooses to identify himself.

2. There's a rather dressy picture of him as a Mason. As other people have pointed out, there really is no such thing as a Christian fundamentalist/Freemason. As a rule, fundamentalists hate Masonry.

3. Was he actually supporting himself with his farm business, or was mom keeping him afloat? (I'm betting on mom.)

4. For him being a Christian fundamentalist, there's a glaring lack of Bible verses, mention of Christian media, etc.

5. His list of favorite TV shows would not pass muster with actual Christian fundamentalists.

6. There's been mention of him posting on Christian sites. It will be very interesting to see the nature of those posts.

7. It will be interesting to see if he actually ever darkened the door of a church in the past 10 years. It's risky to guess, but I think there's a 50% chance that when he identified himself as Christian, it was purely in the sense of not being Muslim. If he did have a real life church affiliation, I wonder what it was.

Just because this dude set up a Facebook page a "few days ago" ... And, filled in his profile as "Christian" ... Ya know what?

IT. DOESN'T. MAKE. IT. SO!

The real tragedy is that in Norway it is okay to send your teenager off to an island ... that will hold 400 of them. And, there's no adult supervision!

Was there at least a tent where you could get condoms?

400 teenagers. And, no one adult supervisor? How about one adult supervisor and a power boat?

How about one adult supervisor. A power boat. And, a plan?

Yes. the prime minister was supposed to show up! He was going to talk to these children of LABOR members.

Doesn't seem like a very well thought out plan to me.

Oh. And, the blond dude belonged to the MASONS. Right there, you have a secret society of "like-minded" individuals. But not in Norway?

How did the 9-tons of fertilizer get ordered?

Well, at least ahead Norwegians will become a tad more suspicious?

Perhaps, more demanding, when they send kids off with nothing more than a back pack and a sleeping tent, huh?

They can also use improvements in how they respond to accident scenes. Because just using 4 people to lift an injured person off the ground ... was pretty hair raising ... when you saw them all in police uniforms!

Did you spot other errors?

Don't expect the press to report anything. It's Oslo. Home of the Peace Prize.

This tragedy also points another large issue--terrorism works because it is just difficult stop without creating a total police state--perhaps the cost of a relatively free society is having to endure an act of terrorism--I dont know where the balance point is. Even the rather closed society of USSR/Russia was unable to stop Chechen terrorism.

One thing about McVeigh is that he was such a one-off. How many other McVeighs have their been since OK City?

People like that in the past have bombed churches (when, in fact, they actually did) or sniped at a particular individual who they personalize as the focus of their hate - neither of which has happened in this country for decades. McVeigh broke the mold and continues to be unique. It should also be noted that Nichols had Moslem contacts in the Philippines (he was married to a Filipina and visited there shortly before the attacks) that were never investigated for political reasons.

The idea that there may be more here follows off that.

Historically, the Quislings were pretty lame. They came close to winning power before thew war, but, having lost, waited for the Wehrmacht to come goose-stepping in. The Krauts were always the real power in Norway.

PS Carol is fun, but she gets it more than the off-the-screen rants sometimes indicate.

Craziness aside, I would opine that this event is but the leading-edge of the inevitable back-lash against the inroads of immigrants who hold beliefs/practices TOTALLY incompatible with those of Western Civilization and the increasing aggressiveness of Islam's immigrant adherents (EVERY rape in Oslo in the past 5 yrs has been Muslim on non-Muslim) along with the up-to-now ABSOLUTE refusal of Europe's dominant lefty political/cultural/intellectual elites to even officially/publicly admit of the problem--let alone discuss it in Parliament.

I knew little about Norwegians until I moved to Wi. Shortly after moving here I was told we needed to go to the Sytennde de Mai festival in Stoughton. Having been to many great ethnic festivals in other parts of the country, I was eager to go. When we got there it was.."When does the festival start?" There was rosemauling, shitty..I mean real shitty food, and some folk dancing.

It has always been my contention that the Good Lord has a real sense of humor. In this case I'm sure he laughs having given Norwegians the longest life spans.

All this said, my prayers to all the families. And, I hope this doesn't skew the actuary tables.

Ugh, now we have to pit up with the constant drumbeat in the press about how you can't blame the whole group for the actions of a tiny minority. An how the real story is the mindless revenge attacks on Christians.

Compared to other countries I wouldn’t say we have a big problem with right-wing extremists in Norway...

Assuming this guy actually is a right-wing extremist, I'd say they have a bigger problem. I don't recall another such massacre in a western country since McVeigh (more whacko than right wing) that wasn't radical Muslim related.

I am pretty sure Jesus did not mean shoot the little children when he admonished the apostles to let them come to him. So the term "Christian" is like Fred Phelps version of the term, very twisted and not Christian.

It's my understanding (not claiming to know the minutia of Norwegian politics) that the summer camp was operated by a more left-leaning, pro-multicultural party, which the Prime Minister is a member of. I'd imagine the idea would be to hit the Norwegians you think are ruining your country. Sort of a one-man (or more, depending where the evidence goes) civil war.

victoria: "Just remember that most Norwegians are super left wing anyways so it makes sense that whoever is protesting the government is probably super right wing."

RC: Uh---what?!

At first I read that as V.in P. sensibly pointing out that anybody to the right of the left-of-center left is a "right-wing extremist" in much of the Euro MSM, ergo...something about the "right-wing extremist" label having been debased into uselessness by being used to attack anybody who isn't down with one-worldism, or...

But then I realized it doesn't really make any sense from that angle, either.

(And I, too, am deeply curious to know what "Christian fundamentalist" is supposed to mean here. I suspect it means nothing more than "Christian with non-liberal political views".)

Ms Herman--Mozart was poisoned because of the Zauberflaute? A recent panel of docs said it was probably an infection--Not that that it conclusive but probably makes more sense than your free masonary conspiracy theory. You are out there on grassy knoll theories.

Good and serious Christian men most certainly do belong to the Free Masons, as well as women to the Eastern Star. George Washington was both as well, and one hell of a an American in all respects. Appears there needs to be some re-education camps on this subject...see Sebelius on that issue.

Also wondered how neo-Nazi or extreme fundamentalist Christian has become extreme right wing. Elements of nationalism do not sit well with elements of extreme fundamental Christian beliefs. Elements of extreme nationalism actually fit with Progressive/Marxist/Communist where government (country) are the same. Right wing patriot types see country and citizen as the same and government a necessary evil that needs constant trimming back.

The more I listen to Obama's silly speak, double talk, spinglish the more I realize how effectively the Progs have succeeded in breaking down the language to allow them to say and do, while the rest of stand there with a puzzled expression wondering WTF did he just say.

virgil xenophon: Craziness aside, I would opine that this event is but the leading-edge of the inevitable back-lash against the inroads of [culturally incompatible] immigrants...along with the up-to-now ABSOLUTE refusal of Europe's dominant lefty political/cultural/intellectual elites to even officially/publicly admit of the problem--let alone discuss it in Parliament.

I'm sure any minute now the Great and Good are going to start soul searching about "why do the native peoples hate us" and what measures they need to take to stop the radicalization of these disaffected communities, and rush to protect that vast majority of law-abiding, peaceable conservative nationalists from backlash.

Royce D. said...When a single pastor in a single Christian Church anywhere steps up to either lionize or apologize for this crazy, evil Krumkake, I'll drop that particular stereotype from my world view.

What I find odd is that I got a chance to look at the FB page before it got shut down. There were no friends, no groups just a bunch of posts about music plus the odd interests in movies/games/tv that were 100% American.

It struck me at the time that it was set up like a "spam" site ... totally fake for a purpose.

There is as yet no evidence of any Neo-Nazi links. Also why target his fellow Norwegians instead of Jews & Muslims? I mean if he's supposed to be this anti-Muslim type right? Something smells funny here and it aint the fertilizer.

YH: How does someone get by with shooting 80 people? I mean, even with guns and nutjobs everywhere in the US, no one walks around getting to shoot 80 people!

I don't understand the death toll, either, but maybe nutjobs having lower body counts in the U.S. is because of, not in spite of, our having guns and nutjobs everywhere in the U.S. Perhaps Norwegians don't, as Americans do, think of home-grown predator lunatics as a natural part of the landscape - rare, yes, but out there, and we have an instinct to duck and cover, or shoot back, that they've had bred out of them.

Really? The guy purchased a fully automatic weapon in Norway? More likely he had a standard semi-automatic, which is what every handgun that has an ammo clip is, and it's just bad reporting.

Journalists do tend to produce a lot of howlers when it comes to reporting about guns, bless their hearts, on both sides of the Atlantic.

1. He's a Norwegian nationalist guy. Why is the page in English, and why are the cultural products mentioned (books, TV, games) primarily English-language? I'm assuming the answer for being in English is that he wanted the biggest possible audience for presenting himself, but why the lack of Norwegian content? It seems like the Facebook page, which was very recently concocted, was created for our benefit, as part of his post-massacre publicity package.

Yep.

Someone had to have saved a screen shot of it.

What threw you the most?

300?

Galactaca, Dexter?

*****

Speaking of things that seemed off-almost immediately police sold the idea of him acting alone for both incidents.

(Guy I know who has been fighting terrorism professionally for decades hypothesizes that the bombing incident was a diversionary tactic so that he would have more time to do what he really wanted to accomplish...)

Anyways-I agree with the Norwegian police doing that.

If there were other accomplices it might be useful to have them get comfortable in the belief that the police think he acted alone.

Drudge has a headline for a second accomplice-but it doesn't seem to link up to the right article.

"and we have an instinct to duck and cover, or shoot back, that they've had bred out of them."

I think you're right about this. Americans still have a bit of the frontier sense of physical courage about them that many other cultures lack.

I remember a report from the Mumbai massacre where an American reporter was stalking a shooter with the armed Mumbai police forceand he was yelling at them "Shoot him! For God's sake, why won't you shoot him!?" The Mumbai police wouldn't fire on the suspect walking down a street with an automatic (yes, a real automatic) rifle in hand.

There was also some years ago a shooter in the middle part of England who walked around his village for FOUR HOURS shooting everyone he came across.

Many mentions of Orwell and Machiavelli, but no mention of the very first author on his bookshelf - William James (older brother of Henry James), psychologist, philosopher, and physician who wrote influential books on the psychology of religious experience and mysticism, who advocated that truth was whatever the belief holder found useful at the time. Truth and morality were plastic in his view. He was also a fond user of mind altering substances he believed would lead him to his own truths.

So I was just at Justoneminute and commenter narciso has this translation of one of the murderer's comments at a blog.

********

I completely agree that Obama is a brilliant retoriker and communicator, one of the best we've seen over the past 30 years.

But firstly, we can not and should not compare the cultural struggle in the U.S. with that in Europe. Rhetoric must and should be different. The average "right click" - Republican in the U.S. is a "libertarian" (anti-socialist but pro multikulti) while the average conservative in Europe is much more anti-multikulti but arguments based on cultural resistance against Islamization.

The so-called anti-multiculti in the U.S. based their rhetoric on ethnocentrism alone which thus differs greatly from Europeans. This is the main reason that we must separate the American and European cultural struggle. I usually stay away from American issues as a result.

Regardless of whether we are in the U.S. or Europe, it is essential you have to ask about the following:

When was that multiculturalism ceased to be an ideology designed to deconstruct a European culture, traditions, identity and nation-states? If you support a leader who propagate multikulti (ideology as of this writing systematically deconstructs Western civilization), one can not then just as well stick to the class struggle or the MSM?

And if we then think that multiculturalism wonderful doctrines is the main cause of the ongoing Islamization of Europe and the U.S., one should not criticize multiculturalism while leading No. 1, the one Jesus Christ Obama for his fundamental principles?

Failure to criticize him, you have not then accepted the multiculturalism wonderful premise?

2010-01-25 05:20:24

Now *if* that's his comment why all the American references on his Facebook page?

A number of Christian churches--some you might call "fundamentalist" or evangelical--are anti-Freemasonry, but other Christian churches--including some you could call "fundamentalist"--have had no problem with Freemasonry.

The Catholic Church does not allow her members to become Freemasons, for several reasons:

> The issue of secrecy; not that it has secrets; that's no big deal, businesses have secrets and the Knights of Columbus have secrets. No, the issue is keeping one's membership secret.

> Freemasonry does have beliefs about God, and religions; basically it tends to take an "it's all good" indifferentism. Christianity may be wrong, but the idea of Christianity, Islam, Budddhism, whatever, is seriously at odds with the Catholic Faith.

> The rituals themselves involve some blood-curdling oaths. Either you mean an oath or you don't. Swearing a terrible oath and meaning it is bad; swearing a terrible oath and not meaning it is bad.

There are two historical elements that don't matter so much now; in the past, Freemasonry has been involved in questionable political intrique (not in U.S. but in Europe), and has been anti-Catholic; but again, in the U.S. I think the anti-Catholic element has fallen by the wayside.

Catholics who become Masons cannot come to communion until they leave the organization.

A lot of folks are slavering over the possibility the killer in this case will be (a) not a Muslim and (b) any kind of Christian.

Considering the report that a group with a Jihadi name took credit for this, and considering the remarkable coincidences in recent terror attacks, considering that it might be yet another case of Jihadi terror seems a reasonable possibility.

If this guy turns out to be anything else, we'll be treated to lots of moralizing about how awful-terrible and utterly without basis such thinking was.

If this guy turns out to be some sort of Christian, we'll be further treated to the claim that, see, there's Islamic terror and Christian terror. It's all the same!

What language is this guy reading those philosophical works on his FB page in?

I can't even find a Norwegian translation of the Critique of Pure Reason at amazon.uk. Nor any William James.

If this guy is reading German or English at this level, he would have had to spent major time in a German or an English speaking country. Comprehension at this level goes beyond fluency. Hell, even Germans can barely read Kant!

The FB page may be a fake (we've already discussed a bunch of other oddities), but I think glomming onto big, important books that they don't understand is characteristic of a certain kind of spree killer. See, for instance, Jared Loughner's reading list.

"When a single pastor in a single Christian Church anywhere steps up to either lionize or apologize for this crazy, evil Krumkake, I'll drop that particular stereotype from my world view."

I'll just add that pastor to the list of people to disown. Let me predict that the need is not likely to arise, but if it does it will be someone that no-one has ever heard of before, leading some tiny little splinter flock that no-one has heard of either (like that Koran Burner guy.)

My father gave me his masonic bible. It's seriously bleakly black with the Masonic symbol embossed in gold. I actually wanted my mother's bible but she wouldn't give it to me. Her's is loaded with famous Christian art which appealed to me as a child which led to reading the words around them thus providing a way to become familiar with biblical episodes. She never read it, I did. She used the book to press flowers between wax paper which all deteriorated anyway. Later, my dad saw me reading Mum's book from beginning to end as literature and he saw my mum refuse me which compelled him to offer his own, which originally belonged to his dad. That made me think the Mason's were a Scottish thing. I don't care for the book because it's black. I read it before handing it over to my older brother who I knew would like owning it as a family object but would not bother to actually read it.

The masonic bible is the KJV, naturally, with one noticeable difference. The front of the book describes at length the architecture of the first Jerusalem temple. Masons are big on stone buildings. Duh. (A wealthy mason spent a fortune researching and creating a replica of the first temple and that effort is covered extensively in this version of their bible.) The front portion of the book is filled with pictures of buildings in the Egyptian style. This Egyptian take on early Jewish kingdom architecture of palaces and such and the very well done pictures held my interest for weeks.

Incidentally, I learned by reading it again that the Christian art loading the family bible of my mum's which impressed me so greatly is not all masterpieces. Much of it is risible second-rate art. The book, a large tome, can be bought on eBay for pittance.

My father also had a Mason code book. It is all intriguing nonsense from beginning to end -- an amusing secret language to conceal nothing at all. You can learn the whole thing in hours. Why anyone would devote months to studying it as my dad did blows my mind. Ritual for the sake of ritual. Secrecy for the sake of something special. Hierarchy because that's what people do. Men join for social and economic connections and that is all. Just the sort of things my brother gravitates to, and I do anything to escape.

This Anders Breivik guy is an enigma but the facts about him will come out eventually. Judging by the photo he put up, it looks like at some point he seriously took it on the chin.

"Carol Herman, you really are a babbling imbecile, aren't you? The main thing spinning here are the misfiring neurons in your brain."

No, Carol's main point, at least -- a multi-man operation being spun as a one-man operation -- is true.

Everything being officially reported is fishy. This was a professional operation with roots beyond the operators, who were at least two and more likely several more, not to mention planners, financiers and logistics personnel.

No individual or group, such as AQ, pulls off that level of action without state-level resources. This was a state-sponsored operation just as WTC '93 and WTC '01 were. And by state-sponsored I do not mean Norway now and USA then.

The picture circulated is not that of a farmer. It's that of a yuppie/sybarite. Smooth face, styled hair, probably silky hands as well. A pretty boy. He could be a patsy. He's no farmer. And his eyes are not those of a professional shooter, which is what this attack required at the operator level.

Someone, some group with state-level backing, wanted to go to a lot of trouble to make something very big appear to be something it isn't. What states have resources to do that? China, Iran and Russia in first tier of suspects, Libya, Syria, Saudi, maybe Egypt and Indonesia in second tier, Israel, Germany, UK and USA in third tier ....

Two things appear certain, at least to this observer: left-wing Norwegian gov is not telling the truth at this point and, unless truth is pried out by others, USA executive will use this to suppress civilian weapons ownership and "whites" and "Christians" of the non-Democratic Party variety. And for our third half, somefeller is a "progressive" troll.

Well, given the right physical environment, and inconceivability-of-fighting-back mindset among your victims, couldn't you?

Yeah I suppose if they stopped moving and stood still yeah.

Hitting a moving target, a sprinting target, is not easy and to my knowledge, barring military training, not many Norgies are very proficient with weapons. I thought Norway had very strict gun control laws. In fact, some Norgie reporter was going on and on about how the police aren't even armed.

Oh, my! Daddy was a mason and his daddy before him. Southern Baptists. A BFF and I recently joked that if the economy grew bad enough we would end up in a Masonic retirement home for poor widows and children of Masons.

We had a big blue Masonic Bible at home. I liked to read it 'cause I was fascinated with Egyptology from an early age. But it struck me as wildly dated.

Hehheh. But how can we fuck them out of their money if we kill them? You are deluded. Hopeful, but deluded. Like most leftiies you project, you want the righties to die. But thne who would pay the taxes? No, my dear man, right wingers want the lefties to live so we can take all their money so we can remain millionairesandbillionaires.

Well it is clearly a political attack, and according to the Media in Norway, he was a member of a right-wing party that was against multi-culturalism. In some ways this reminds me of Stieg Larsson's theme in The Girl With The Dragon Tatto where he reveals just how pernicious the right wing in Sweden can be.It is interesting to read all the speculations bent by ideologies on this blog-- he is really a mason funded by Muslims-- oh well, I will wait for more evidence.

The last Masons (keep in mind, I'm Catholic, so my interest theoretically goes the other way) even peripherally involved in mass murder occurred in the Jack the Ripper murders (the Juwes), so I think this may be just a tad off the track.

Fr Martin Fox said...

A lot of folks are slavering over the possibility the killer in this case will be (a) not a Muslim and (b) any kind of Christian.

Considering the report that a group with a Jihadi name took credit for this, and considering the remarkable coincidences in recent terror attacks, considering that it might be yet another case of Jihadi terror seems a reasonable possibility.

Padre, I'm guessing the powers that be in Norge are praying that your first point's the case.

I mentioned above, there was some Norwegian reporter on CNN last night going on about how safe it is in Norway that even the Norwegian police don't carry weapons so it begs the question what fucking good would they have done had they been 2 minutes away?

Norway does indeed have very strict gun control laws, especially with regard to handguns, but that does not mean there aren't a lot of handguns around. People, at least the male half of the population like guns, and do not like to be told what they can or cannot have.

As for long guns, target shooting with rifles was the most popular sport next to soccer 60 years ago, and I do not expect that much has changed.

"As for "Christian fundamentalist," I do not even know what that would be in Norwegian terms. I have always thought this was a regional thing of the American South."

Good point. In German Protestant theology there is a period, some centuries ago, of Lutheran Fundamentalism, but that was nothing like and no ancestor to what in USA today is professor/media-sneered at as "Christian fundamentalism." Lutheran Fundamentalism was doctrinally comprehensive and legalistically rigid, as doctrinalism and legalism always are.

"Christian fundamentalism" as meant by professors and media in the USA -- also called "revivalism" or "evangelicalism" -- descends from the left wing of the Reformation. Luther and Calvin opposed it in all its forms. Its essence is antinomianism (lawlessness) and self-salvation ("works-righteousness," i.e., "humanism").

"Christian fundamentalism" is the opposite in tone and practice of Lutheran Fundamentalism, which based in the Faculties of Theology and Governments and was wiped away by the Pietist movement, which included J. S. Bach. In its political expressions the Pietist movement was comparable to the modern "Tea Party" movement: lawful individualism, "legal insurrection" based in existential imperatives of living freedom.

The left wing of the Reformation comprised numerous groups each with a pet peeve directed at the Papacy or Lutherans or Calvinists or one of their own left wing groups having, they thought, the wrong pet peeve.

The left wing of the Reformation produced J. J. Rousseau, who produced the French Revolutionaries, who produced Communism.

So to say a guy is a Nazi and a fundamentalist Christian in the USA sense is to call him a left-winger twice over. Now, left-wingers in the modern world align with jihadis and their supporting nation states (principally Iran, Saudi, Syria).

As Carol says and Hagar implies, watch the spin, know the history. The truth may creep out anonymously from someone on the police side rather than the political side.

That is a puzzlement and makes at least two shooters likely. Breivik apparently was carrying an assult rifle (a real one) or what we used to call a sub-machinegun, but even so, 87 dead from a single shooter sounds preposterous. Breivik would have had to carry an inordinate amount of ammunition in quick-change magazines, it seems. It's only in the movies that every round hits a vital spot and people all fall down dead when you point a gun at them.

"Anders Brehing Breivik, the man accused of the murder of at least 91 Norwegians in a twin bomb and gun massacre, boasted online about his discussions with the far right English Defence League and other anti-Islamic European organizations. …

The disclosure of Breivik’s claimed links with other far right organisations came as details emerged about the rightwing Christian fundamentalist and freemason behind Norway’s worst post-war act of violence.

It was revealed that the 32-year-old former member of the country’s conservative Progress Party – who had become ever more extreme in his hatred of Muslims, left wingers and the country’s political establishment – had ordered six tonnes of fertiliser in May to be used in the bombing. While police continued to interrogate Breivik, who was charged with the mass killings, evidence of his increasingly far right world view emerged from an article he had posted on several Scandinavian websites, including Nordisk – a site frequented by neo-Nazis, far right radicals and Islamophobes since 2009.

The Norwegian daily VG quoted one of Breivik’s friends saying that he had become a rightwing extremist in his late 20s and was now a strong opponent of multi-culturalism, expressing strong nationalistic views in online debates.

Breivik had talked admiringly about conversations he had had with unnamed English Defence League members and the organisation Stop the Islamification of Europe over the success of provocative street actions leading to violence.

“I have on some occasions had discussions with SIOE and EDL and recommended them to use certain strategies,” he wrote two years ago."

And there's no indication that the Norwegian press doesn't provide data for terrorism investigations, either in the past or now, and the investigations, as I mentioned, are handled by police and military. Most people here seem to see that, other than the sad freaks babbling about Freemasons and whether the suspect has the eyes of a shooter.

"A semi-automatic pistol is a type of handgun that can be fired in semi-automatic mode, firing one cartridge for each pull of the trigger. Whereas other types of handguns accomplish this function by using multiple chambers and a single barrel (revolvers) or multiple chambers and barrels (for example, some derringers), semi-automatic pistols use a single chamber and a single barrel, which remain in a fixed linear orientation relative to each other while being fired and reloaded semi-automatically. Some terms that have been, or still are, used as synonyms for semi-automatic pistol are automatic pistol, self-loading pistol, self-loader, autopistol, and autoloader."

"He has been charged in both the explosion in the center of the government area and also the shooting," Roger Andresen, deputy Oslo police chief, told reporters today. The two counts of "dangerous crimes to society" mean he could receive 21 years in prison, Norway's toughest punishment, he said.

"I'm tempted to say that the cues that his statements are lies are so strong that they suggest paradoxically that he is not lying." Wow, you're a real idiot. Obviously you won't post this comment, so I know this is between you and me. You're just a godawful moron.

It bothers me that our vaunted news media has not come up with better information than all this breathless speculation and off-the-wall hypotheses. Norway is a Western country with an excellent education system, and just about everybody speaks English quite well, even though with a funny accent. It is also a very open society, public officials should be quite accessible, and they ought to be competent. Some years ago, when Norway was a "peaceful country," they might have been caught flat-footed, but they have been expecting, and should have been preparing for, trouble from the jihadists for at least a decade. I just can't believe that the information is not available to base better reporting on.

Anders Brehing Breivik, the man accused of the murder of at least 91 Norwegians in a twin bomb and gun massacre, boasted online about his discussions with the far right English Defence League and other anti-Islamic European organizations. …

The disclosure of Breivik’s claimed links with other far right organisations came as details emerged about the rightwing Christian fundamentalist and freemason behind Norway’s worst post-war act of violence.

It was revealed that the 32-year-old former member of the country’s conservative Progress Party – who had become ever more extreme in his hatred of Muslims, left wingers and the country’s political establishment – had ordered six tonnes of fertiliser in May to be used in the bombing. While police continued to interrogate Breivik, who was charged with the mass killings, evidence of his increasingly far right world view emerged from an article he had posted on several Scandinavian websites, including Nordisk – a site frequented by neo-Nazis, far right radicals and Islamophobes since 2009.

The Norwegian daily VG quoted one of Breivik’s friends saying that he had become a rightwing extremist in his late 20s and was now a strong opponent of multi-culturalism, expressing strong nationalistic views in online debates.

Breivik had talked admiringly about conversations he had had with unnamed English Defence League members and the organisation Stop the Islamification of Europe over the success of provocative street actions leading to violence.

“I have on some occasions had discussions with SIOE and EDL and recommended them to use certain strategies,” he wrote two years ago.

"Anders Brehing Breivik, the man accused of the murder of at least 91 Norwegians in a twin bomb and gun massacre boasted online about his discussions with the far right English Defense League and other anti-Islamic European organizations....

It was revealed that the 32-year-old former member of the country's conservative Progress Party – who had become ever more extreme in his hatred of Muslims, left wingers and the country's political establishment – had ordered six tonnes of fertiliser in May to be used in the bombing. While police continued to interrogate Breivik, who was charged with the mass killings, evidence of his increasingly far right world view emerged from an article he had posted on several Scandinavian websites, including Nordisk – a site frequented by neo-Nazis, far right radicals and Islamophobes since 2009.

The Norwegian daily VG quoted one of Breivik's friends saying that he had become a rightwing extremist in his late 20s and was now a strong opponent of multi-culturalism, expressing strong nationalistic views in online debates."

Nevermind. It must be a leftist, pro-Islam plant. Or a "state-sponsored" ploy.

"Sounds like Norway is in need of some harsher sentencing reform legislation. Like now."

Why?

While I personally agree 21 years max is too light a sentence for the mass murder of 100 people, it is for each nation to determine for themselves the appropriate sentencing guidelines, according to their own cultural and legal traditions and their own perception of what punishments are humane or inhumane, effective or ineffective, necessary or unnecessary.

I don't know what Norway's general crime rates are, or its murder rate in particular, but--an anomalous act of insanity like this aside--most likely their sentencing norms are perfectly in accord with their own ideas of appropriate punishment, and also proportionate to the degree to which violent crimes are a problem in their society.

"The picture circulated is not that of a farmer. It's that of a yuppie/sybarite. Smooth face, styled hair, probably silky hands as well. A pretty boy. He could be a patsy. He's no farmer. And his eyes are not those of a professional shooter, which is what this attack required at the operator level."

Oh, gawd. He looks like half of my relatives.

What this argument amounts to is defense of the notion of disarming us and making us weak because only strong, trained operators are dangerous.

Maybe it's racial.

I don't look at that picture and see a person too urbane to commit violence. What is pretty blond hair and blue eyes and good skin other than what ever single other person you grew up with has? I see my classmates and relatives. Nothing about a baby-face makes a person benign.

Ann said: Both my grandfathers were Masons. They also were members of Protestant churches, one Methodist and one Presbyterian.

Masonic beliefs would be anathema to a fundamentalist Christian. The Great Architect of the Universe conception of God is something they could never embrace nor even allow. In fact, the encroaching of Free Masonry into the Protestant churches was fuel added to the fire of fundamentalism as it developed in the early part of the 20th c. Fundamentalism was rare in Presbyterian and Methodist denominations in the era of Ann's grandfathers and still is in Methodism and majority Presbyterianism.

I would be cautious in trusting the assessment of either Norwegian news or US MSM sources, the latter who cannot reliably tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundy.

How are the New York Jets and Billy Graham alike? Both can fill a stadium with 60,000 people yelling, "Jesus Christ!" Tim Allen

Free Mason religion, which is as anti-Christian as religions come. Well, masons and the vatican were bussiness partner in the Bank fraud, Banco Ambrosiano, in the 80s orchestated by an american cardinal

Why is the page in English, and why are the cultural products mentioned (books, TV, games) primarily English-language? People in Norways,Sweeden and Finland are bilingual since their languages and useless outside their countries and would be wasteful to translate everything to read

For starters, the perpetrator ought to be decently hanged. Since Norway doesn't currently permit capital punishment, some legislation is required.

I am against capital punishment generally, mind you. But I believe justice requires it in certain cases; this is one such.

Is the man a Christian?

Well, that depends very much on both what he believes and what he practices, and how these conform with the Christian faith as generally understood in all places and times.

Since there is some disagreement about the latter, the best one can do is ask a relatively trusted body of each of Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and so on. Take this mutt's beliefs and practices, and ask each group whether, in their communion or denomination, a person would get excommunicated (or, where that's not applicable, removed as a Sunday School teacher) for believing or teaching likewise.

If no body conventionally called Christian is willing to allow the perpetrator's beliefs or practices as permissible within their church, then he isn't Christian.

That, I think, is as close to an objective evaluation as we can get on such a question.

Is the man crazy?

Possibly not; he may merely be one of those evil persons whose actions make a nasty kind of sense; as in, "I want to become famous, I want my political opinions to be talked about, I want to be well fed, I don't want to have to work, I don't mind long periods of isolation, and I don't want to be executed; in Norway, I can achieve my goals this way."

Is it fair to associate his actions with Christianity?

No.

Is it fair to associate his actions with right-wing political movements?

Well, not any American ones.

But "right-wing" in Europe usually means rather different things than it does in the U.S.; so, it's hard to say whether there are any right-wing European groups whose public advocacy might be fairly associated with this fellow.

"I'm still amazed you haven't found another place to live considering your undisguised hatred for this country."

Why should I have to move? Rather, we need to live up to and abide by our own Constitutional principles and to the rule of law, as well as to our own self-flattering image of ourselves as the most good, most special, most divine, most humane, most equal, most fair, most giving, most just, most merciful nation that ever was or will be.

Or at least try a little harder to be that, instead of embracing its polar opposite.

Why should I have to move? Rather, we need to live up to and abide by our own Constitutional principles...

Cook, the only posts from you I have ever seen have been how horrible this country is, from its inception till now. Clearly your ideas of our 'Constitutional principles' lie more along the lines of Das Kapital than life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

What kind of camp was it where the shootings took place? Some of the survivors were in their 20s i read. What kind of people allow so many of their number ro be slaughtered without attempting to retaliate? What have we taught our young people about bravery, about heroism about honor about anything other than personal graification and cowardice? I wonder if there are no long metal slides in Norway to make sure noone gets hurt, if their playgrounds are safety certified and have soft materialsmfor the children to land on. The older generation was broughtbp on war movies where heroism was applauded, honored. Now ww cower and hope we arent shot. The whole thing is appalling.

Synova. Certainly trueblue is not a Dem because they generally make a point of not conflating members of a group with mass murderers. You know, religion of peace and all that. McVeig waa a lefty by the way. Ditto Oswald.

Meanwhile, I think I saw on AofS that the Mason thing was some notion of being Knights Templar... which I don't believe is true in any place than inside this nut-jobs head. Inside his head, though, that makes sense. Secret society of warriors... it has to appeal to a subsection of people who see themselves in an entirely emasculated and threatened culture.

Attacking the young people (someone said older teenagers on a political retreat?) certainly counts as a terror target.

What it isn't is equivalent to McVeigh blowing up a government building that happened to have a day care center in it.