Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by detroit687

I had contributed 30k by 24 because I started at 18. I can't touch my anuity either. And our local it's a 83 point system number of years contributed plus age and then you can collect a percentage each month of what you contributed.
But now that I own my own company I can't contribute hours for my self but I still keep up on my dues and carry my card. I'm a small company, contrary to what people think on here my competition is non union companys. I do small retail, industrial, work . Paying union wages is my choice. My employees are like my extended family. We have family dinners together at least twice a month.

That's my point you did that in 6 years. I actually put more in with a better multiplier my first year with less hours. Than my last year with over 600 more hours. That is with a multiplier of .05 less. And had to give up a scheduled raise to save the pension. the money went to the general fund and not in my name. Yeah I feel ripped off. At least they use vaseline though.

Last edited by JustaFramer; 03-03-2011 at 06:32 PM.

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Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

The legacy costs passed on by the unions will be the death of industrial America.....there are already pieces out there by economists that basically predict the end of all domestic auto and truck production. Is it fair? Nope.....but the day the government started bailing out union pension funds on my tax dollars is the day I stopped giving a damn about unions.

I wanted to comment on this yesterday. I agree that the government shouldn't bailout pensions. But it was put into law many years ago I believe it was Taft-Hartley act.

I know for a fact that the Carpenters at least in W. WA do not want the government taking over our pension. Once the government takes over the plan looses big time. And maybe rightfully so. How ever the members lose any early retirement privilege and a slough of other things. Like reduced payout.
Now what happened with the UAW was known for along time. The earliest I knew they were in trouble was 06. So it was no surprise what happened. The real surprise which is no surprise is that they didn't have to take any concessions.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

So what happened for the first 150 years? What happened to personal responsibility? Where did the concept of retirement actually begin? Perhaps a little look back will give you the insight where I am going with this.

I fully expect to work until death. If I am fortunate enough to be in a financial position to retire, it will be through my diligence and business aptitude.

You know......3 or 4 generations back, depending on age...for me, 3, it was common for the parents of a family to be taken care of by their children. What a selfish concept.....why rely on the family when the government can rape and pillage the citizens to fund pensions and health care? I guess you know that is socialism. Wealth redistribution.

Do not get me wrong...the unions played a valuable role in changing the way workers were treated, both union and non union...fair wages, safety, and reasonable work hours.....but when the benefits began......if it was a savings plan fully funded and vested by the employees, great. The Teamsters used to be like that......they funded retirement based on what the employers invested, plus what the employee invested.....they did not rely on future employees to fulfill the promises made to employees as has been done now. Social Security is unfunded....the money already spent, and someday, the "promises" will be broken, and since the majority of Americans are vested in that plan, and they won't get it, how do you think they will feel about paying for the retirements of union employees when those promises also will not be kept? The system is broke.....broken and busted.....and if you can justify why my tax dollars, that I willingly pay for defense, infrastructure, and basic government services should be used to bail out the union pensions, I am listening........I didn't make the promise and break the bank....but the unions are fully expecting the states, and ultimately the government to pick up the tab.......say it ain't so.

First off let me say thank you to most of the people in this discussion. Most times this topic goes nowhere and the typical responses are "unions suck" or some other comment that offers nothing to the conversation. Thanks for a good discussion..

I am also big on personal responsibility. And I also agree that government money should not be used to bail out any private interests. FWIW I fund my own pension. Where I think we differ is with the retirement issue. You expect to work until death. I do not. I want to enjoy my last years hunting, fishing, and being with family. Maybe even some light traveling. Do you honestly believe that what you pay your men is enough for them to raise a family and save enough for retirement? Do you think that they could even save enough to cover just their medical bills/prescriptions at an elderly age? You said rely on family at an elderly age. Do you pay your guys enough to take care of their children, themselves, and their parents?
In a ideal situation the "average Joe" would make enough money to live a modest life and be able to fund their own retirement. But the wages I see and hear from most non-union employees (construction) does not enable all of that to happen. If it did then I would be 100% on board with you. Fund everything yourself and if you piss it away, tough, you are on your own.

Bottom line is that in my opinion if you are a productive member of society and work full time until retirement age. I think that you should be afforded decent health care and a modest lifestyle.

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to NJ Brickie For This Useful Post:

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbronson

Actually after I read it again I was being selfish. And I had just ran into a mess from a union shop where I had just gotten grieved for something stupid. As in moving some boxes that were part of an MOU with LiNA. So I was out of line. My apologies

And you're right I am not a carpenter. And I am not IBEW or Teamsters or any of the other unions that actually have clout and give decent benefits. Hell I think SEIU has better benefits and protections than we do!

But you are right. They, in the past, have done all the things that you mention and they are important. And in the past the apprentice program guaranteed that you would be getting someone who at least could be expected to perform to a certain set of standards and competence which is not something that can be said today.

Thank you for that response. Everyone has those days. I understand where you are coming from. I am "evil management" at work and understand the pissing matches of whose work is whose.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustaFramer

Ok so far we have heard the rhetoric of the poor are getting poorer and the disappearing middle class.

Show me the proof and not your NY Slimes hit pieces. And don't give me reasoning of fiduciary malfeasances on the part of the idiot that got poorer. Because if you are not fiscally conservative you will always be poor. You buy on credit you better know what you are doing. I will not cry for you.

I only spoke of the middle class, not the poor. Middle class jobs are disappearing. The growth of jobs in the US are either high paying, high skilled jobs or low paying low skilled jobs. Think about it, what middle class jobs are left? The growth has been service industry jobs which do not support a middle class or the opposite end of the spectrum.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJ Brickie

I only spoke of the middle class, not the poor. Middle class jobs are disappearing. The growth of jobs in the US are either high paying, high skilled jobs or low paying low skilled jobs. Think about it, what middle class jobs are left? The growth has been service industry jobs which do not support a middle class or the opposite end of the spectrum.

The biggest problem to the loss of jobs held by what would be the middle class is those that claim to trying to save them. I.E. the government. I don't believe that high taxes and restrictive regulations are going to help the down trodden.
The other problem is the baby boomers they are holding on to jobs longer and not retiring till later in life.

Atlas shrugged now what we need to do as a society is beat that beast we call government back into it's cage. And we will see a resurgence of the middle class. One of the hurdles will be breaking the public sector unions.
I know that makes me a pariah with the current unionist's. But that is because most of them are 60's loser radicals. But hey even FDR and Fiorello La Guardia thought the same way.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJ Brickie

I am also big on personal responsibility. And I also agree that government money should not be used to bail out any private interests. FWIW I fund my own pension. Where I think we differ is with the retirement issue. You expect to work until death. I do not. I want to enjoy my last years hunting, fishing, and being with family. Maybe even some light traveling. Do you honestly believe that what you pay your men is enough for them to raise a family and save enough for retirement? Do you think that they could even save enough to cover just their medical bills/prescriptions at an elderly age? You said rely on family at an elderly age. Do you pay your guys enough to take care of their children, themselves, and their parents?
In a ideal situation the "average Joe" would make enough money to live a modest life and be able to fund their own retirement. But the wages I see and hear from most non-union employees (construction) does not enable all of that to happen. If it did then I would be 100% on board with you. Fund everything yourself and if you piss it away, tough, you are on your own.

Bottom line is that in my opinion if you are a productive member of society and work full time until retirement age. I think that you should be afforded decent health care and a modest lifestyle.

I have no employees, and haven't for a few years now....I sub everything, and accept responsibility for myself.

What we disagree with is the concept that I feel I owe it to myself to take care of myself and my family...I don't feel like paying for your retirement, or anyone's for that matter, just because they were "productive".....it may be a Utopian view that as a member of a great society, that society will take care of you, but in reality, who pays?

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

I have no employees, and haven't for a few years now....I sub everything, and accept responsibility for myself.

What we disagree with is the concept that I feel I owe it to myself to take care of myself and my family...I don't feel like paying for your retirement, or anyone's for that matter, just because they were "productive".....it may be a Utopian view that as a member of a great society, that society will take care of you, but in reality, who pays?

You did not answer the question. The numbers do not lie. The "average Joe" does not make enough money to buy health insurance, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, clothes on the families backs, pay the car insurance, and other necessities and all the while saving for retirement. You bring up a Utopian view of society. Yes you are right, the idea that everyone has the ability to earn a wage that supports all of the necessities in life and some extras is a Utopian idea. But that is not exactly what I am talking about. We will always have people poor through rich. But there should be a larger percentage of the population that can earn enough money to be comfortable.

I have read some of your posts in the past and I think we feel the same way about entitlement programs. If average people had the opportunity to earn more money they would be less of a burden on society(rich). Rich people pay the bulk of the taxes in this country. If average people made more money we could do away with or greatly reduce almost every entitlement program and decrease taxes for the rich. We would also be able to decrease taxes for the rich because as income grew in the middle class so would tax revenue. Rich people pay for much of the middle class and poor the way things are now, through taxes. Would it not be better to let them earn it themselves instead of the government redistributing it through taxes and government programs? You asked "who pays". Do not kid yourself, if we had complete free enterprise and capitalism and businesses and the rich could do what ever they pleased, you and I would be very poor. You would not be able to take care of your family as you are so proud of, and should be.

And again, you are not paying for my retirement, I fund my own as does alot of private sector unions. Beside unless you are rich you probably pay for exactly what you use in government services or very close. The rich are paying for almost everything.

Re:
Carpenters Union

200/hr per man, for just a carpenter? no wonder why union companies are so high priced and why it costs the gov so much to do jobs that could be a lot less.

If I charged 200/hr for a carpenter working for me, I wouldn't have residential work very long. not sure what type of work you are doing for that much/hr.

46/hr is not what ever union carpenter is getting, might be what you are paying but not across the board for all of them.

Yes. I am certain we ALL (union and non-union) often are disgusted by the profligate spending associated with any government project.

(Not really in response to Apgar NJ I just like the tasteful way he states it, I would be more like "$200/ hour!!! I'll be long dead before I would pay 200/h for your laborer to hang doors LMFAO")

Whose costs (inflated wages, benefit packages and retirement funds) are burying the next generations with accumulated debt? Albeit somewhat indirectly. I don't expect anyone to work for free, I'm not a socialist. But I don't see why I should pay for your organization when I need a carpenter. I can hear you now"Oh, you don't pay for them, I do, it's called union dues" That's why you are employees. Your wages are falsely inflated so that the % required for the infrastructure above you to lead a life of leisure is still a manageable portion of your pay

For example: if you can't get work at whatever the national average of union carpenter's wages is, on every given carpentry job across the country, then I have grave doubts about the viability of your wages

Re:
Carpenters Union

Yes. I am certain we ALL (union and non-union) often are disgusted by the profligate spending associated with any government project.

(Not really in response to Apgar NJ I just like the tasteful way he states it, I would be more like "$200/ hour!!! I'll be long dead before I would pay 200/h for your laborer to hang doors LMFAO")

Whose costs (inflated wages, benefit packages and retirement funds) are burying the next generations with accumulated debt? Albeit somewhat indirectly. I don't expect anyone to work for free, I'm not a socialist. But I don't see why I should pay for your organization when I need a carpenter. I can hear you now"Oh, you don't pay for them, I do, it's called union dues" That's why you are employees. Your wages are falsely inflated so that the % required for the infrastructure above you to lead a life of leisure is still a manageable portion of your pay

For example: if you can't get work at whatever the national average of union carpenter's wages is, on every given carpentry job across the country, then I have grave doubts about the viability of your wages

Quit comparing your minor league to the majors.
We are talking about half a billion dollar jobs. These aren't jobs you run out of your house or truck. Ok, Skippy? Not to mention the management team that is required. Do you really think that O&P is 30-40% in commercial when we are talking about number like that?
Come back when you figure it out.
Give some numbers on what the biggest job you have won or worked (as a employee) on. Impress me.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Yes. I am certain we ALL (union and non-union) often are disgusted by the profligate spending associated with any government project.

(Not really in response to Apgar NJ I just like the tasteful way he states it, I would be more like "$200/ hour!!! I'll be long dead before I would pay 200/h for your laborer to hang doors LMFAO")

Whose costs (inflated wages, benefit packages and retirement funds) are burying the next generations with accumulated debt? Albeit somewhat indirectly. I don't expect anyone to work for free, I'm not a socialist. But I don't see why I should pay for your organization when I need a carpenter. I can hear you now"Oh, you don't pay for them, I do, it's called union dues" That's why you are employees. Your wages are falsely inflated so that the % required for the infrastructure above you to lead a life of leisure is still a manageable portion of your pay

For example: if you can't get work at whatever the national average of union carpenter's wages is, on every given carpentry job across the country, then I have grave doubts about the viability of your wages

Laborers do not hang doors, carpenters do. Also the national average for one carpenter per day is nowhere near 200/hr.

The mentality that you pay for our union is ridiculous. You are an employer not God. How we spend our money is up to us. By that line of thinking you also pay for our house and food. It is called an exchange of money for services. Maybe your next client can dictate how you spend your money, since they are "paying for it".

Inflated wages? What do you think it costs to live, how much do you need to make per hr? Average skilled, union trades make around $30-40 per/ hr around here. So take home before dues is around $1100 per week. You are not living high on the hog around here with that money.

I agree that there is a ridiculous amount of money wasted on many government projects. But you need to look at the government for that waste. Too much middle and upper management required and too much BS political interruption and poor designs.

Re:
Carpenters Union

The 200 dollar a hour remark is what Detroit said he charges. Now we are talking about a commercial contractor that has a office and pays insurance that is probably more than even the highest housing tract insurance payment.

So yes his costs are different and higher than the guy that does residential. The residential pay rate for union is lower than the commercial pay. From the wages to the benefit contribution.

These guys love to compare apples to oranges. Then make a comparison to bananas.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustaFramer

The 200 dollar a hour remark is what Detroit said he charges. Now we are talking about a commercial contractor that has a office and pays insurance that is probably more than even the highest housing tract insurance payment.

So yes his costs are different and higher than the guy that does residential. The residential pay rate for union is lower than the commercial pay. From the wages to the benefit contribution.

These guys love to compare apples to oranges. Then make a comparison to bananas.

I know what my company bills out for T&M work and it is not near that 200/hr mark. But yes you are right. My local the pay rate for residential/ commercial is the same. We did away with the housing rate about 10yrs ago. And since then I have worked on many housing jobs.

Re:
Carpenters Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJ Brickie

I know what my company bills out for T&M work and it is not near that 200/hr mark. But yes you are right. My local the pay rate for residential/ commercial is the same. We did away with the housing rate about 10yrs ago. And since then I have worked on many housing jobs.

Ours is 80% of commercial pay with a different benefit package. I am sure Detroit isn't billing 200 a hour but I bet it's between 100-125. I am sure they couldn't bill that either.

Re:
Carpenters Union

OK I could say a lot on this post but on this little rock the unions are very strong and I must be in it to get the good bennies so I work an average of 6mos a year in and 6 mos out. I will not comment on the carpenters union because if fear of being kicked out! I will say both sides have good points on this one. I do know very few employers will give you a fare package like the union contractors have to.

Re:
Carpenters Union

I tried to stay out of this conversation but I just could not resist. I carry a union carpenters card like my father. I have worked as a project manager with a commercial contractor for the last 12 years so I have some knowledge to both the union employee as well as the contractor.

First the union: We have many (not all) highly trained motivated individuals that I would put up against anyone union or not. No Mafia but of course political BS also not specific to unions, Yes they can solicit their own work. Are there duds, of course but that is not specific to just unions. Good health insurance and pension, wages about $33.00 pr hr.

Contractor: total package cost about $50.00 per hr. (you should be paying SS and UI union or not. Can hire and fire freely within the membership. Tough to compete with non union but we choose not to play in that arena

Bottom line union or not, knowledge is king. If you have a skill you can make money

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