Getting Ecumenical with Baal & Ishtar

Christianity Today has an article on religious syncretism, focusing particularly on multi-faith clergy. We have blogged about the Muslim-Episcopalian priest (see below) and the Buddhist-Episcopalian bishop, both of which the article treats in more detail and with revealing quotations. Here is a case I hadn’t heard about:

In 2004, two suburban Philadelphia Episcopal priests, the Rev. William Melnyk and his wife, the Rev. Glyn Ruppe-Melnyk, were investigated by their bishop for being “practicing druids.”

The two were found to have been authors of a “Eucharist to our Mother Goddess” published on a Wicca website (and, for a while, on the Episcopal Church’s Office of Women’s Ministries site). Writing under the Druid and Wiccan names Oakwyse, Raven, Druis, and Glipsa, the liturgy evoked the Babylonian deity “Bel” and offered prayers to the “Queen of Heaven”: a reference not to the Virgin Mary but to Ishtar, the consort of Baal.

In an internet chatroom writing under the pseudonym “Druis,” Melnyk stated he had been a member of the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids since 1998. “My spouse and I are both Druid graduates of the training course. We are also both priests in the Episcopal Church. Between us, we lead two groves, some call them ‘congregations,’ of Christians learning about Druidry numbering about 1200.”

The Melnyks “recanted and repudiated” their connection with Druidism, but explained to their bishop that they had become involved in the occult “to help others who had lost connection to the Church to find a way to reconnect.”

Apparently the husband-and-wife priests were disciplined, though I would think that would have been awkward since the titular head of the Anglican communion, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Rev. Rowan Williams, is also a Druid. But here we have overt worship of Bel (aka “Baal”) and Ishtar (aka “Asherah”), the specific deities the children of Israel were warned not to get syncretic with! Don’t Episcopalian seminarian study the Old Testament? Even if they don’t fully believe it, I’d think the warnings against these particular deities would be rather inhibiting.

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

I'd be interested to know HOW they are worshiping Baal and which version of Baal they are worshiping. Maybe they are making a new religion based on the old name.

While the Bible uses the word Baal repeatedly, that was more of a generic word used to refer to a variety of gods worshiped by the people of the time.

Are they going with the whole sacrifices and incense route, or is this a more "club" sort of worship – everyone belongs and gets to have bragging rights to be trendy and cool in their religion?

Veith commented a while back about it being difficult to worship a cultural god outside the culture. You pretty much have to change the god to fit the culture in which it is worshiped.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

I'd be interested to know HOW they are worshiping Baal and which version of Baal they are worshiping. Maybe they are making a new religion based on the old name.

While the Bible uses the word Baal repeatedly, that was more of a generic word used to refer to a variety of gods worshiped by the people of the time.

Are they going with the whole sacrifices and incense route, or is this a more "club" sort of worship – everyone belongs and gets to have bragging rights to be trendy and cool in their religion?

Veith commented a while back about it being difficult to worship a cultural god outside the culture. You pretty much have to change the god to fit the culture in which it is worshiped.

http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

You underestimate the rationalization facility of the modern theologian.

http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

You underestimate the rationalization facility of the modern theologian.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

Possibly so, Lars. In general it's my opinion that philosophers, theologians, and just people in general have a virtually unbounded capability to rationalize anything.

The fun part is that it can form a unified, non-contradictory whole to the person who holds it while the rest of the world can merely look on in wonder and bewilderment as to how it's possible to believe such a thing.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

Possibly so, Lars. In general it's my opinion that philosophers, theologians, and just people in general have a virtually unbounded capability to rationalize anything.

The fun part is that it can form a unified, non-contradictory whole to the person who holds it while the rest of the world can merely look on in wonder and bewilderment as to how it's possible to believe such a thing.

Dan Kempin

"Funny, she didn't look Druish."

Dan Kempin

"Funny, she didn't look Druish."

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

Hahahahahahaha!!!!! That's excellent!

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

Hahahahahahaha!!!!! That's excellent!

http://intensedebate.com/people/Benjammin Benjammin

Wow, that was dark. Clever tho. Props.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Benjammin Benjammin

Wow, that was dark. Clever tho. Props.

Steve in Toronto

Please layoff that off the Rowan Williams is a Druid nonsence. The Archbishop of Canterbury is a member of a society of Welsh artists (Dr. Williams is a distinguished poet among his many other accomplishments). He does not worship trees he worships the triune God revealed in scripture. In fact he is one of the foremost defenders of Trinitarian Orthodoxy on that rapidly secularizing island. I know he is not a Confessional Lutheran but that does not excuse you from breaking the 9th commandment.

Peace

Steve in Toronto

Steve in Toronto

Please layoff that off the Rowan Williams is a Druid nonsence. The Archbishop of Canterbury is a member of a society of Welsh artists (Dr. Williams is a distinguished poet among his many other accomplishments). He does not worship trees he worships the triune God revealed in scripture. In fact he is one of the foremost defenders of Trinitarian Orthodoxy on that rapidly secularizing island. I know he is not a Confessional Lutheran but that does not excuse you from breaking the 9th commandment.

Peace

Steve in Toronto

Steve in Toronto

If God is neither a quasi-Hegelian organizing principle, nor an abstract postulate, nor yet an agent among other agents, what is to be said of him? Christian practice begins to answer that question by repeating the story of Jesus: what is to be said of God is that Jesus of Nazareth was born, ministered in such and such a way, died in such and such a way, and was raised from death. This is an odd statement, in that it treats the narrative of a human being as predicated of a substance or subject which is God…. God is what is constitutive of the particular identity of Jesus; that is what can be said of him, and it is what the homoousion of Nicaea endeavoured to say…. The ‘essential’ or ‘immanent’ Trinity can finally be characterized only as that which makes this life (and death and resurrection) possible and intelligible.”

If God is neither a quasi-Hegelian organizing principle, nor an abstract postulate, nor yet an agent among other agents, what is to be said of him? Christian practice begins to answer that question by repeating the story of Jesus: what is to be said of God is that Jesus of Nazareth was born, ministered in such and such a way, died in such and such a way, and was raised from death. This is an odd statement, in that it treats the narrative of a human being as predicated of a substance or subject which is God…. God is what is constitutive of the particular identity of Jesus; that is what can be said of him, and it is what the homoousion of Nicaea endeavoured to say…. The ‘essential’ or ‘immanent’ Trinity can finally be characterized only as that which makes this life (and death and resurrection) possible and intelligible.”

Steve, stop bothering people with facts about Williams' not becoming a pagan Druid. I'll bet you even read the entire article, didn't you, instead of just scanning the headline and first paragraph. Bad Steve!

http://intensedebate.com/people/WebMonk WebMonk

Steve, stop bothering people with facts about Williams' not becoming a pagan Druid. I'll bet you even read the entire article, didn't you, instead of just scanning the headline and first paragraph. Bad Steve!

http://www.viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

Yes, Williams is NOT a pagan. Granted, he sometimes does or says things rather bunglingly–so much so that he reminds me of myself in that respect. But his teachings are deep in orthodoxy and rich in insight. See here for instance: http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1634

http://www.viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

Yes, Williams is NOT a pagan. Granted, he sometimes does or says things rather bunglingly–so much so that he reminds me of myself in that respect. But his teachings are deep in orthodoxy and rich in insight. See here for instance: http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1634

Steve in Toronto

Isn’t it amazing how he wove the quote from Harry Potter into his Easter sermon (wink, wink)?

I am glad I am not the only anglophile on this board

Steve in Toronto

Isn’t it amazing how he wove the quote from Harry Potter into his Easter sermon (wink, wink)?

I am glad I am not the only anglophile on this board

Joe

I have no idea if he is a pagan or not, but I do know that he pretty much does nothing to stop the un-Christian teachings that occur in the Anglican Communion and lead to such things as the appointment of practicing homosexual bishops.

To me (and granted I am not an Anglican) it looks like he has put saving the Communion above doctrinal purity.

Joe

I have no idea if he is a pagan or not, but I do know that he pretty much does nothing to stop the un-Christian teachings that occur in the Anglican Communion and lead to such things as the appointment of practicing homosexual bishops.

To me (and granted I am not an Anglican) it looks like he has put saving the Communion above doctrinal purity.

Steve in Toronto

It’s common for Americans to look at the Anglican Communion through the prism of the Episcopal Church in the United States. How ever it’s important to remember that the rest of the communion is in much better shape. In fact the Anglican Church in England is in the midst of a mini revival centered on the very evangelical and Low Church Holy Trinity Brampton (HTB) the home of both the Alpha course and my mother in law. My bet is that within 10 years the ECUSA will have fallen of a Cliff and that the Anglican Mission in America AMiA will be welcomed into the world Anglican community with open arms.

Please keep the Anglican Community in your prayers there is life in the old girl yet.

God Bless

Steve in Toronto

Steve in Toronto

It’s common for Americans to look at the Anglican Communion through the prism of the Episcopal Church in the United States. How ever it’s important to remember that the rest of the communion is in much better shape. In fact the Anglican Church in England is in the midst of a mini revival centered on the very evangelical and Low Church Holy Trinity Brampton (HTB) the home of both the Alpha course and my mother in law. My bet is that within 10 years the ECUSA will have fallen of a Cliff and that the Anglican Mission in America AMiA will be welcomed into the world Anglican community with open arms.

Please keep the Anglican Community in your prayers there is life in the old girl yet.

God Bless

Steve in Toronto

http://www.clutchingthealtar.blogspot.com JoeS

Steve, I would suggest that it is fair to look at the Archbishop's Druidic ties in the same light as anyone would look at a pastor becoming a Free Mason. He may not be practicing that false religion, but it sends a confusing message to the rest of the world.

http://www.clutchingthealtar.blogspot.com JoeS

Steve, I would suggest that it is fair to look at the Archbishop's Druidic ties in the same light as anyone would look at a pastor becoming a Free Mason. He may not be practicing that false religion, but it sends a confusing message to the rest of the world.

Veith

Is he a "White Druid" or not? If you did read the entire article, as you are accusing me of not doing, the Archbishop accepts the term, "though not in the religious sense." My original post credits him for not going so far as to worship Baal and Ishtar, as this other druid does.

Veith

Is he a "White Druid" or not? If you did read the entire article, as you are accusing me of not doing, the Archbishop accepts the term, "though not in the religious sense." My original post credits him for not going so far as to worship Baal and Ishtar, as this other druid does.

Dan Kempin

Not a dark joke. Just a quote from "Spaceballs."

Dan Kempin

Not a dark joke. Just a quote from "Spaceballs."

http://intensedebate.com/people/stadler stadler

If he sees himself as a "white druid" (article's capitalization), "though not [a Druid] in the religious sense," then why did you merely describe him as a "Druid"? Especially in direct comparison with people who are apparently actually practicing the religion? Your description appears designed to convey (especially to those who don't read the whole article) that he literally worships trees or what-have-you. I see no actual evidence of that.

Now, the Archbishop can be accused of making a poor decision, of sending confusing messages to the world about Christianity, but let's try to keep our labels as neat as possible, yes?

http://intensedebate.com/people/stadler stadler

If he sees himself as a "white druid" (article's capitalization), "though not [a Druid] in the religious sense," then why did you merely describe him as a "Druid"? Especially in direct comparison with people who are apparently actually practicing the religion? Your description appears designed to convey (especially to those who don't read the whole article) that he literally worships trees or what-have-you. I see no actual evidence of that.

Now, the Archbishop can be accused of making a poor decision, of sending confusing messages to the world about Christianity, but let's try to keep our labels as neat as possible, yes?

http://intensedebate.com/people/stadler stadler

Wow, Peter, when you use the word "cojones", it sends a shiver down my espalda. So powerful!

http://intensedebate.com/people/stadler stadler

Wow, Peter, when you use the word "cojones", it sends a shiver down my espalda. So powerful!

http://intensedebate.com/people/PeterLeavitt PeterLeavitt

Steady that espada, Stadler, and be a man.

http://intensedebate.com/people/PeterLeavitt PeterLeavitt

Steady that espada, Stadler, and be a man.

Steve in Toronto

There are non so blind as those who refuse to see. Dr. Williams belongs to a organization that is dedicated to the promotion and conservation of the Welsh language. It has nothing to do with paganism or nature worship. Our host Glen is an advocate of Classical education. If his students dressed in Toga’s and join clubs like the Archimedes science club or the Seneca debate society would you accuse him of promoting paganism? At some point in the 19th Century some romantic Welsh nationalists thought it would be a good idea to celebrate there culture and an ancient welsh poet by adopting the trappings of their mythic past. Its a bit silly but it’s completely harmless. The entire vocabulary of early American architecture was derived from pagan models do you think that we should tear down our Georgian churches and replace them with good honest “Christian” Gothic architecture?

Steve in Toronto

There are non so blind as those who refuse to see. Dr. Williams belongs to a organization that is dedicated to the promotion and conservation of the Welsh language. It has nothing to do with paganism or nature worship. Our host Glen is an advocate of Classical education. If his students dressed in Toga’s and join clubs like the Archimedes science club or the Seneca debate society would you accuse him of promoting paganism? At some point in the 19th Century some romantic Welsh nationalists thought it would be a good idea to celebrate there culture and an ancient welsh poet by adopting the trappings of their mythic past. Its a bit silly but it’s completely harmless. The entire vocabulary of early American architecture was derived from pagan models do you think that we should tear down our Georgian churches and replace them with good honest “Christian” Gothic architecture?

http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

Basically, the Gorsedd of Bards, which made Archbishop Williams an honorary member in 2002, seems to be a rather odd but basically harmless Welsh cultural group with an extremely complicated history. According to a brief history written by a self-described "modern pagan druid":

The Eisteddfod and the Gorsedd is not Pagan, nor do they practise any form of Paganism, the display of druidic splendour is merely tradition, as inspired by the great Iolo Morgannwg. It is very much a Christian organisation. But more so it is a celebration of the Welsh language and culturehttp://druidnetwork.org/articles/meiniachadair.ht…

As tODD suggests, the "druid" label is technically true but misleading.

http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

Basically, the Gorsedd of Bards, which made Archbishop Williams an honorary member in 2002, seems to be a rather odd but basically harmless Welsh cultural group with an extremely complicated history. According to a brief history written by a self-described "modern pagan druid":

The Eisteddfod and the Gorsedd is not Pagan, nor do they practise any form of Paganism, the display of druidic splendour is merely tradition, as inspired by the great Iolo Morgannwg. It is very much a Christian organisation. But more so it is a celebration of the Welsh language and culturehttp://druidnetwork.org/articles/meiniachadair.ht…

As tODD suggests, the "druid" label is technically true but misleading.

http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

I don't know if that was the best place for that reply. This new comment system has me bumfuzzled.

http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

I don't know if that was the best place for that reply. This new comment system has me bumfuzzled.

Cincinnatus

Fair enough. Though, as an Anglican, I can with some certainty and authority say that someone else should probably be occupying his office at this time. I can only wonder whether things within the Communion might not be turning out so much better were, say, N. T. Wright the Archbishop instead.

Cincinnatus

Fair enough. Though, as an Anglican, I can with some certainty and authority say that someone else should probably be occupying his office at this time. I can only wonder whether things within the Communion might not be turning out so much better were, say, N. T. Wright the Archbishop instead.

Cincinnatus

He is certainly not a pagan.

As to your second one-sentence paragraph: there, indeed, is the rub. Which is most important? The communion instituted by Christ or the doctrinal particularities (ostensibly) established by the Apostles? It's a tougher question than you might expect, and unfortunately, the manner in which you are asking it leads me to believe that you do not entirely understand the concept of the "one holy, Catholic and apostolic Church," or at least of the value of communion.

/not entirely heretical, I swear //Anglo-Catholic

Cincinnatus

He is certainly not a pagan.

As to your second one-sentence paragraph: there, indeed, is the rub. Which is most important? The communion instituted by Christ or the doctrinal particularities (ostensibly) established by the Apostles? It's a tougher question than you might expect, and unfortunately, the manner in which you are asking it leads me to believe that you do not entirely understand the concept of the "one holy, Catholic and apostolic Church," or at least of the value of communion.

/not entirely heretical, I swear //Anglo-Catholic

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/PeterLeavitt PeterLeavitt

Interesting that these week kneed Christians abase themselves by claiming to be Druids, Buddhists, et al, while, as far as I know, none of the folk from other faiths claim to be simultaneously Christians. The basic problem is that these fey Christians have basically lost their faith and are prone to get off by being politically correct. They are just as bewildered as the secular liberals who have become essentially anti-American pluralists sans cojones.

One can respect other points of view without becoming a foggy relativist.

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/PeterLeavitt PeterLeavitt

Interesting that these week kneed Christians abase themselves by claiming to be Druids, Buddhists, et al, while, as far as I know, none of the folk from other faiths claim to be simultaneously Christians. The basic problem is that these fey Christians have basically lost their faith and are prone to get off by being politically correct. They are just as bewildered as the secular liberals who have become essentially anti-American pluralists sans cojones.

One can respect other points of view without becoming a foggy relativist.

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/PeterLeavitt PeterLeavitt

Steve, we may distinguish between a romantic reverence for an old language and a Muslim- Episcopalian priest along with Buddhist Episcopalian bishop, to say nothing of a sodomite bishop. As to the present Archbishop of Canterbury, his problem isn't romanticism; rather, it is a distinct inability to decisively lead the Anglican Communion.

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/PeterLeavitt PeterLeavitt

Steve, we may distinguish between a romantic reverence for an old language and a Muslim- Episcopalian priest along with Buddhist Episcopalian bishop, to say nothing of a sodomite bishop. As to the present Archbishop of Canterbury, his problem isn't romanticism; rather, it is a distinct inability to decisively lead the Anglican Communion.

http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

Webmonk,

You said,"I'd be interested to know HOW they are worshiping Baal and which version of Baal they are worshiping. Maybe they are making a new religion based on the old name." I am not an expert on ancient middle eastern pagan religions, but I do recall reading that this pair was making the raisin cakes often associated with Baal and Ashera, to use in their rituals. This made my hair stand on end, remembering that the Lord, through the prophets, said He hated those things. What could they possibly have been thinking? No, really, what posseses some one to commit such a known affront and provocation to the Lord? Surely they were familiar with the OT prohibitions against such things.

http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

Webmonk,

You said,"I'd be interested to know HOW they are worshiping Baal and which version of Baal they are worshiping. Maybe they are making a new religion based on the old name." I am not an expert on ancient middle eastern pagan religions, but I do recall reading that this pair was making the raisin cakes often associated with Baal and Ashera, to use in their rituals. This made my hair stand on end, remembering that the Lord, through the prophets, said He hated those things. What could they possibly have been thinking? No, really, what posseses some one to commit such a known affront and provocation to the Lord? Surely they were familiar with the OT prohibitions against such things.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SteveinToronto SteveinToronto

I guess should be grateful that the discussion has moved away form the slanderous accusation that the Archbishop of Canterbury is a Pagan to the more debatable subject of whether of not his is the best man for job at this time. To be honest don’t know. I am a big fan of Dr William’s writing (both popular and scholarly) everyone who cares about Christianity and the arts should read his recent book on Dostoevsky but he seems to have a knack for saying and doing things that are (I think wilfully) miss represented in the British tabloid press. This is not a problem that is exclusive to Dr. Williams I remember seeing a number of headline declaring that Anglican Bishop does not believe in Heaven in the wake of NT Wrights impeccably orthodox “Surprised by Hope”. Perhaps we should give the British press a break there so used to writing about Anglican heretics that they don’t know what to do with an Orthodox Cleric.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SteveinToronto SteveinToronto

I guess should be grateful that the discussion has moved away form the slanderous accusation that the Archbishop of Canterbury is a Pagan to the more debatable subject of whether of not his is the best man for job at this time. To be honest don’t know. I am a big fan of Dr William’s writing (both popular and scholarly) everyone who cares about Christianity and the arts should read his recent book on Dostoevsky but he seems to have a knack for saying and doing things that are (I think wilfully) miss represented in the British tabloid press. This is not a problem that is exclusive to Dr. Williams I remember seeing a number of headline declaring that Anglican Bishop does not believe in Heaven in the wake of NT Wrights impeccably orthodox “Surprised by Hope”. Perhaps we should give the British press a break there so used to writing about Anglican heretics that they don’t know what to do with an Orthodox Cleric.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SteveinToronto SteveinToronto

The Archbishops North American critics often forget that he has no control over the nut jobs the run the American Episcopalian Church. Or that he pointedly declined to invite Gene Robinson to annual meeting of Anglican Bishops at Lambeth palace. I may be that another man might have done a better job of raining in the Americans Heretics but his predecessor the impeccably Orthodox Low Chuch man George Carry was equally ineffective. I fact the recent defrocking and disciplining of rogue clerics that has occasioned this discussion suggests that even the leadership of the ECUSA is getting the message that they are skating on very thin ice.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SteveinToronto SteveinToronto

The Archbishops North American critics often forget that he has no control over the nut jobs the run the American Episcopalian Church. Or that he pointedly declined to invite Gene Robinson to annual meeting of Anglican Bishops at Lambeth palace. I may be that another man might have done a better job of raining in the Americans Heretics but his predecessor the impeccably Orthodox Low Chuch man George Carry was equally ineffective. I fact the recent defrocking and disciplining of rogue clerics that has occasioned this discussion suggests that even the leadership of the ECUSA is getting the message that they are skating on very thin ice.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SteveinToronto SteveinToronto

There is a tendency in some Evenjilical (maybe a poor choice of words lets say confessional) circles to chuck the entire Anglican project over the side but I honestly can not think of a Christian tradition that has contributed more to the heath of Evenjilical Christianity in the 20th centenary. Where would we be without JI Packer, Oz Guinness, John Stott, Nicky Gumbel, John McGrath, NT Wright and CS Lewis? Think of how may first rate Evenjilical scholar from other Traditions caped there education with PhD’s from Anglican Theological Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge? Please don’t give up on us yet there is still hope

God Bless

Steve in Toronto

http://intensedebate.com/people/SteveinToronto SteveinToronto

There is a tendency in some Evenjilical (maybe a poor choice of words lets say confessional) circles to chuck the entire Anglican project over the side but I honestly can not think of a Christian tradition that has contributed more to the heath of Evenjilical Christianity in the 20th centenary. Where would we be without JI Packer, Oz Guinness, John Stott, Nicky Gumbel, John McGrath, NT Wright and CS Lewis? Think of how may first rate Evenjilical scholar from other Traditions caped there education with PhD’s from Anglican Theological Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge? Please don’t give up on us yet there is still hope