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I have dedicated my law practice for the last 25 years to the wrongfully injured and their families. The purpose of this blog is not to provide legal advice. If you need legal help you can contact me at cplacitella@cprlaw.com or visit our website at www.cprlaw.com.
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Monday, March 09, 2009

Numerous people were exposed to asbestos while working for AT&T, Lucent Technologies and the other companies in the Bell operating system. I am representing a cable splcer who developed mesothelioma while working for New Jersey Bell telephone in NJ. The follwing is the deposition of the Corproate respresentaive which details the kinds of exposures that may occur. 1 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 DOCKET NO. L-5469-07 (AS) 3 4 PHILIP & KAREN DEGNAN, VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION UNDER 5 Plaintiff, ORAL EXAMINATION OF 6 vs. CHARLES P. LICHTENWALNER 7 ALCATEL LUCENT, et al, 8 Defendant(s). 9 10 11 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the witness called for Oral Examination in the 12 above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken pursuant to Superior Court Rules of 13 Practice and Procedure by and before RACHEL SANTIAGO, a Notary Public and Shorthand 14 Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at the offices of THACHER, PROFFITT & WOOD, 25 15 DeForest Avenue, Summit, New Jersey on Friday, July 25, 2008, commencing at approximately 16 10:00 in the forenoon. 17 18 19 20 21 22 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES Certified Shorthand Reporters and Videographers 23 90 Woodbridge Center Drive, Suite 220 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095 24 (732) 283-5737 25 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C. 4 127 Maple Avenue 5 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701 6 (732) 747-9003 7 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ. 8 Attorneys for Plaintiff 9 10 LAW OFFICE JOHN McGOWAN, LLC 11 54 Main Street 12 Chatham, New Jersey 07928 13 (973) 507-9511 14 BY: JOHN McGOWAN, ESQ. 15 Attorneys for Defendant, Deponent Lucent 16 17 THACHER, PROFFITT & WOOD 18 25 DeForest Avenue 19 Summit, New Jersey 07901 20 (908) 598-5700 21 BY: ROBERT L. HORNBY, ESQ. 22 Attorneys for Defendant, Deponent Lucent 23 24 25 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd): 2 3 McELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP, 4 1300 Mount Kemble Avenue 5 Morristown, New Jersey 07962 6 (973) 993-8100 7 BY: MICHELLE HYDRUSKO, ESQ. 8 Attorneys for Defendant, Railroad Construction 9 Company, Inc. 10 11 LAVIN, O'NEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO 12 190 North Independence Mall West 13 Suite 500 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106 15 (215) 627-0303 16 BY: BASIL A. DiSIPIO, ESQ. 17 Attorney for Defendant, 3M Company 18 19 RIKER, DANZIG, SCHERER, HYLAND, PERRETTI, LLP 20 Headquarters Plaza 21 One Speedwell Avenue 22 Morristown, New Jersey 07962 23 (973) 538-0800 24 BY: KELLY CRAWFORD, ESQ. 25 Attorneys for Defendant, AT&T 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd): 2 3 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN 4 216 Haddon Avenue 5 Westmont, New Jersey 08108 6 (856) 858-7200 7 BY: RYAN M. KOOI, ESQ. 8 Attorneys for Defendant, John Crane 9 10 KENT & McBRIDE, P.C. 11 555 Route 1 South, 12 Woodbridge Towers, 4th Floor 13 Iselin, New Jersey 08830 14 (732) 326-1711 15 BY: STEPHEN DENARO, ESQ. 16 Attorneys for Defendant, T. J. McGlone 17 18 CONNELL FOLEY, LLP 19 85 Livingston Avenue 20 Roseland, New Jersey 07068 21 (973) 535-0500 22 BY: MEGAN ROBERTS, ESQ. 23 Attorneys for Defendant, Frank A. McBride 24 25 5 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd): 2 3 HARDIN, KUNDLA, McKEON & POLETTO, P.A. 4 673 Morris Avenue 5 Springfield, New Jersey 07081 6 (973) 912-5222 7 BY: NICEA D'ANNUNZIO, ESQ. 8 Attorneys for Defendant, Henkels & McCoy 9 10 A L S O P R E S E N T: 11 Justin Placitella 12 Michael Noonan 13 Thomas Farmer, Videographer 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 1 I N D E X 2 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 CHARLES P. LICHTENWALNER 5 Direct by Mr. Placitella 7, 195 6 Cross by Mr. Kooi 191 7 8 E X H I B I T S 9 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 P-1 Membership Booklet 1958-1959 62 11 12 P-2 Membership Booklet 1966-1967 63 13 (Exhibits annexed to transcript.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 1 C H A R L E S P A U L L I C H T E N W A L N E R, 2 121 Petticoat Lane, Lebanon, 3 New Jersey, called as a witness, having 4 been first duly sworn according to law 5 by a Notary Public of the State of 6 New Jersey, testifies under oath as follows: 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This 8 is Tape Number One to the videotape 9 deposition of Charles Paul Lichtenwalner in 10 the matter of Degnan versus Lucent before 11 the Superior Court of New Jersey Law 12 Division Middlesex County Docket Number 13 L-5469-07. 14 This deposition is being held at 24 15 (sic) DeForest Avenue, Summit, New Jersey 16 on July 25 at video time 10:06 a.m. My 17 name is Thomas Farmer. I am the 18 videographer. The court reporter is 19 Rachel Santiago. Counsel will please 20 introduce themselves and affiliations and 21 the witness will be sworn in by the court 22 reporter. 23 24 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lichtenwalner, did 8 1 I pronounce that correct? 2 A. You did. 3 Q. How are you? My name is Chris 4 Placitella, as I introduced myself to you 5 before, I am here for purposes of taking your 6 deposition. You've had your deposition taken 7 before? 8 A. I have. 9 Q. So I'm not going to go over all the 10 rules, et cetera, essentially you know what's 11 going on. 12 A. I believe I do. 13 Q. Okay. Now, are you still, you live 14 at 121 Petticoat Lane, Lebanon, New Jersey? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. How long have you lived there? 17 A. Thirty years. 18 Q. And you've previously testified 19 about the use of asbestos in Bell Systems while 20 employed by Bell Laboratories? 21 A. While employed? I don't think I 22 testified while I was employed by Bell 23 Laboratories. 24 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 25 Q. I understand. You've previously 9 1 testified about asbestos used in the Bell 2 Systems during the time that you worked at Bell 3 Laboratories; correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And you testified about what was 6 known by Bell Labs in the past relating to 7 asbestos? 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection. 9 A. I have. 10 Q. You have information to the 11 containing asbestos-containing products used in 12 telephone equipment prior to 1993; is that 13 correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And you know about the information 16 relating to asbestos in cable used in the Bell 17 Operating Companies? 18 A. Correct. 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 A. I am not -- very little asbestos 21 used in cables in the Bell System to my 22 knowledge. 23 Q. Are you being paid for your time 24 here? 25 A. I believe I will be. 10 1 Q. Okay. And what rate are you 2 charging? 3 A. I will be submitting a bill for 4 $175 an hour. 5 Q. Okay. And who are you going to 6 submit that bill to? 7 A. I will submit the bill to Thacher, 8 Proffitt & Wood. 9 Q. Okay. And who is going to pay that 10 bill? 11 A. I am not sure. 12 Q. Do you understand the reason why 13 you are here today? 14 A. I believe I am here because I got a 15 subpoena about a month ago. 16 Q. And have you had any, are you 17 represented by counsel here today? 18 A. I am represented by counsel today. 19 Q. And are you paying for counsel? 20 A. I am not paying for counsel. 21 Q. And have you signed a retainer to 22 be represented by counsel? 23 A. I have not signed a retainer. 24 Q. Did you request to be represented 25 by counsel? 11 1 A. I did not request. 2 Q. So was counsel offered to you by 3 Lucent? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In the past you have testified on 6 behalf of Lucent as a corporate witness, 7 correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. On how many occasions? 10 A. I am not sure. 11 Q. Just your best estimate? 12 A. Two or three times. 13 Q. Okay. Were you paid in those 14 cases? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Now, did you spend any time 17 preparing for today's deposition? 18 A. I did spend time, yes. 19 Q. And when did you spend time 20 preparing for today's deposition? 21 A. Approximately one week ago. 22 Q. Where did that prep time take 23 place? 24 A. That took place in this room. 25 Q. And who was present? 12 1 A. John McGowan and Robert Hornby. 2 Q. In the context of that preparation, 3 did you review any documents. 4 MR. MCGOWAN: I am going object. I 5 think we can get into a little privilege. 6 Q. You can answer it. 7 A. I can answer it? 8 Q. Uh-hum. 9 A. I saw very few documents and only 10 briefly at that time. 11 Q. What were the subject matter of the 12 documents? 13 A. The subject matter was, as I 14 recall, it was memoranda and letters from the 15 Bell System during the time I was working 16 there. 17 Q. Do you have -- 18 MR. PLACITELLA: Mr. McGowan, do 19 you have the documents you reviewed with 20 the witness? 21 MR. MCGOWAN: I do not have them. 22 And I'm going to assert claim of privilege 23 on those. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: You are. 25 MR. MCGOWAN: Yes. 13 1 MR. PLACITELLA: Why, because they 2 are authored by lawyers? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: I don't know what 4 documents he's specifically referring to 5 so if there's any memorandum or notes that 6 I've prepared. . . 7 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't want to, 8 anything that you prepared. 9 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 10 Q. I want to know the documents that 11 you prepared, were they Bell System documents 12 as opposed to lawyers documents? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And who were they authored by? 15 A. They were very few documents that 16 we reviewed at that time. The ones that I 17 remember at this time, one was authored by some 18 corporate level of AT&T and the other one was 19 documents that I prepared, a document that I 20 prepared. 21 Q. A document that you prepared while 22 you worked for what company? 23 A. While I worked for Bell 24 Laboratories. 25 Q. Okay. 14 1 MR. PLACITELLA: I'd ask during the 2 break if I can get those documents and 3 take a look at them. 4 Q. Now, I understand that you 5 graduated from high school in 1965? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. And from the University of 8 Pennsylvania in 1969 with a degree in Physics? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. And you received a Master's in 11 Environmental Science from Rutgers in 1992? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. Have you taken professional 14 development courses throughout your career? 15 A. Yes, I have. 16 Q. And you have an engineering license 17 for the State of New Jersey? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. After you got out of school you 20 spent a brief time as a day laborer, correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. And then you went to work for Bell 23 Laboratories in Murray Hill, New Jersey? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Okay. And that was, approximately, 15 1 1969? 2 A. December 12, 1969. 3 Q. The day that will live in infamy? 4 A. I'm sorry, I misspoke. I believe 5 it was December 15. 6 Q. Okay. When you started at Bell 7 Laboratories you were investigating the 8 properties of crystals and chemicals? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And at some point in time you went 11 to work for Bell Laboratories Industrial 12 Hygiene Department; is that correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And you worked in the Industrial 15 Hygiene Department for about 25 years until 16 about 1999? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Originally, am I correct, you were 19 hired as an Instrumentation Specialist for the 20 Hygiene Department at Bell Labs? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And as Instrumentation Specialist 23 you developed equipment and collected samples, 24 analyzed industrial hygiene samples, that kind 25 of thing? 16 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. All right. During the course of 3 your employment from '75 to '99 you had various 4 titles? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. But your job functions remained 7 basically the same; is that right? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Okay. From 1990 to '95 you were a 10 process safety manager? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. What is that? 13 A. My job was to look at the 14 experiments that researchers were performing 15 and assure that they were performed safely. 16 Q. Okay. And you took samples as part 17 of the Industrial Hygiene Department for Bell 18 Labs; is that fair? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. And some of those samples included 21 samples of asbestos in the workplace? 22 A. Yes, that's correct. 23 Q. What kind of sampling were you 24 doing for asbestos in the workplace and for 25 whom? 17 1 A. I collected air samples both area 2 and personnel samples. This was all part of 3 the work that I was performing for the 4 Industrial Hygiene Group. I collected some 5 bulk samples, analyzed them for asbestos. And 6 then, I'm sorry, specifically, just asbestos 7 or? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Okay. Specifically just asbestos. 10 Q. I know you do a lot of stuff, but, 11 you know, everyone's got to beat the beach 12 traffic. 13 A. Air and bulk samples. 14 Q. Now, you worked for Bell Labs, 15 specifically, until sometime in the 1980's? 16 A. Bell Laboratories changed its name 17 a few times -- 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. So that's a difficult question to 20 answer. 21 Q. Okay. Did there come a -- when you 22 first started working, you worked for Bell 23 Laboratories? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Then where did you get your check 18 1 from? 2 A. I believe it was from Bell 3 Laboratories. 4 Q. Did there come a time when Bell 5 Laboratories was not issuing your paycheck 6 anymore? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And when was that? 9 A. I don't know the exact date, but at 10 some date they dropped the term Bell 11 Laboratories and become AT&T. 12 Q. So at some point in time you 13 started to be paid, your checks were issued by 14 AT&T? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. That was the parent company of the 17 Bell Operating System? 18 A. That is correct. 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. 20 Q. Did anything change in terms of 21 your job function and responsibility from the 22 day, the last day you received a check from 23 Bell Laboratories to the first day you received 24 a check from AT&T? 25 A. My job function did not change. 19 1 Q. Okay. Did there come a time when 2 your check was no longer written by AT&T but 3 then was written by Lucent? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Did that happen around 1996? 6 A. I believe that's true. 7 Q. All right. Did your job functions 8 change at all when you started to be paid by 9 Lucent versus when you were being paid by AT&T? 10 A. It did not change. 11 Q. Did the people you report to change 12 in any way? 13 A. They did not change. 14 Q. Did somebody ever tell you about 15 the changes that were coming, why they were 16 being made, or did you just wake up one morning 17 and they say, your checks are now coming from 18 Lucent? 19 A. We received a lot of information 20 from the company about the changes that were 21 taking place, sir. 22 Q. What did you understand the reason 23 for the change between Bell Laboratories and 24 being paid by AT&T? 25 A. My understanding is that AT&T 20 1 decided that they wanted to have one company 2 with more uniform policies and practices and my 3 understanding was they dropped the name Bell 4 Laboratories, Bell Telephone Laboratories, and 5 decided to put everyone under one name. 6 Q. Okay. And then what about the 7 change over between AT&T and Lucent, what is 8 your understanding for why that changeover took 9 place? 10 A. My understanding is that AT&T spun 11 off Lucent Technologies, and, therefore, it 12 became an independent, a company independent of 13 AT&T. 14 Q. But before that time AT&T owned 15 Lucent; is that your understanding? 16 A. Before that time, there was no 17 Lucent name. 18 Q. Okay. So your job functions were 19 then just transferred by AT&T to Lucent? 20 A. That is my understanding. 21 Q. And then at some point in time you 22 left the Industrial Hygiene Department and went 23 to work for the Optical Networking Department? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. And you were ultimately laid off 21 1 out of that Department, correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. And after that you did some work 4 for Harvard University? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Did you continue to live in New 7 Jersey while you were doing work for Harvard? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. All right. What, basically, were 10 your functions as it related to Harvard? 11 A. I was an industrial hygienist at 12 Harvard University performing general 13 industrial hygiene duties. 14 Q. And those duties would take place 15 in the general area of your home? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Would you go all over the country 18 to do that? What was your general geographic 19 sphere of work? 20 A. My general geographic sphere of 21 work while working for Harvard was Cambridge, 22 Massachusetts and Boston, Massachusetts. 23 Q. Are you still working for them now? 24 A. I am not. 25 Q. Okay. Are you currently working 22 1 now? 2 A. I am currently working as an 3 independent contractor. 4 Q. Okay. Doing what? 5 A. Industrial hygiene. 6 Q. And how long have you been doing 7 that? 8 A. I've been doing that since 1975. 9 Q. How long have you been working as 10 an independent contractor? 11 A. I've been working as an independent 12 contractor from July of 2007 to date. 13 Q. Okay. So you officially left 14 employment of Harvard in July of 2007? 15 A. Officially, I left in June 30 of 16 2007. 17 Q. And the reason you left is because? 18 A. I left because I was tired of doing 19 a weekly commute of 300 miles. 20 Q. Understandable. Did you have to 21 give back your Harvard tie? 22 A. I never received a Harvard tie. 23 Q. Okay. Good so I like you. My 24 understanding is that Bell Laboratories for 25 whom you worked, was a wholly-owned subsidiary 23 1 of AT&T? 2 A. That was my understanding also. 3 Q. And the funding for Bell 4 Laboratories came 50 percent from Western 5 Electric and 50 percent from AT&T; is that 6 correct? 7 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. 8 A. That was my understanding. 9 Q. And when you went, first job you 10 had you went to work at Murray Hill, New 11 Jersey, correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. And at that time there was, 14 approximately, 24,000 employees at that job 15 site? 16 A. That is incorrect. 17 Q. How many were there? 18 A. Approximately, 4,000 at that job 19 site. 20 Q. What about Bell Labs generally? 21 A. I was told Bell Labs generally had 22 24,000 employees. 23 Q. Okay. What was the function, when 24 you first started to work there, what was the 25 function of Bell Laboratories as it related to 24 1 the AT&T Operating Companies? 2 A. Bell Laboratories provided research 3 services to AT&T and the Operating Telephone 4 Companies. 5 Q. Did those research services include 6 services to Western Electric? 7 A. They did. 8 Q. To AT&T itself? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. To the Operating Telephone 11 Companies? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would that include New Jersey Bell? 14 A. It would. 15 Q. Okay. Did Bell Laboratories have a 16 representative in each of the Bell Operating 17 Companies? 18 A. It did. 19 Q. Okay. Who was the representative 20 for Bell Laboratories for New Jersey Bell, do 21 you remember? 22 A. I do not remember. 23 Q. Was there a representative of Bell 24 Laboratories for New Jersey Bell? 25 A. I believe there was. 25 1 Q. Bell Laboratories provided the 2 scientific and research end for the Bell 3 Operating Companies; is that a fair statement? 4 A. That is a fair statement. 5 Q. As part of that function, Bell Labs 6 conducted health and safety research for 7 Operating Companies; is that right? 8 A. It did. 9 Q. I want to just focus prior to 1984, 10 in 1984 there was some kind of divestiture? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. Okay. What happened? What was 13 your understanding of the divestiture in 1984? 14 A. My understanding was that AT&T 15 split up into regional Bell Operating Companies 16 and AT&T, which became, was a mixture of Long 17 Lines, Bell Laboratories, and Western Electric. 18 Q. Let's just focus pre-1984, before 19 the divestiture in 1984, all of the Bell 20 Operating Companies relied upon Bell 21 Laboratories for industrial hygiene advice; is 22 that correct? 23 MR. MCGOWAN: I'm just going to 24 object to the form in terms of the start 25 date. Pre-'84 I don't know how far back 26 1 we're going. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Uh-hum, right. 3 A. They relied on Bell Laboratories 4 and perhaps other resources. 5 Q. Okay. But Bell Laboratories, but 6 one of the companies they relied upon -- well, 7 let me ask the question this way, prior to 8 1984, did New Jersey Bell rely upon Bell 9 Laboratories for industrial hygiene advice? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did Western Electric before 1984 13 rely upon Bell Laboratories for industrial 14 hygiene services and advice? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 16 A. My statement would be that Western 17 Electric has its own Industrial Hygiene Group. 18 They also used Bell Laboratories. When you say 19 relied, they didn't rely solely, it wasn't even 20 majority Bell Laboratories. 21 Q. Okay. But in terms of, say, New 22 Jersey Bell, they relied solely upon Bell 23 Laboratories, to your knowledge, from 24 industrial hygiene, correct? 25 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 27 1 A. No. That is not true. 2 Q. Who else did they relied upon? 3 A. They would have used Western 4 Electric Industrial Hygiene Services as well. 5 Q. Okay. So, to your knowledge 6 understanding, prior to 1984 the two entities 7 that provided industrial hygiene advice and 8 services to New Jersey Bell would have been 9 Western Electric and Bell Laboratories; is that 10 a fair statement? 11 A. To my knowledge. 12 Q. Okay. That's all I want is your 13 knowledge. Now, after 1984, who provided the 14 industrial hygiene advice and services to New 15 Jersey Bell? When I say who, I mean what 16 entity? 17 A. After 1984 I couldn't say because I 18 was not -- I was working for a different 19 company at that time. But Bell Laboratories 20 continued to provide services, Western Electric 21 as a manufacturing for many products provided 22 services, and I believe New Jersey Bell became 23 part of Bell Atlantic. And I believe Bell 24 Atlantic hired an industrial hygienist. 25 Q. Okay. After 1984, when you were 28 1 working for AT&T, did you continue to provide 2 industrial hygiene services for either New 3 Jersey Bell or Bell Atlantic? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Both? 6 A. Both. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. 9 Q. Go ahead. 10 A. I don't believe there was a New 11 Jersey Bell after 1984 -- 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Maybe at the Corporate, I believe 14 it became Bell Atlantic at that time. 15 Q. All right. So did you, in your 16 capacity as an industrial hygienist for AT&T, 17 provide industrial hygiene services and advice 18 to Bell Atlantic? 19 A. I did as a contract basis. 20 Q. What does that mean? 21 A. It means that we were no longer 22 able to go out and provide those services 23 without a contract. A specific contract was 24 needed for us to work for Bell Atlantic. 25 Q. Did anybody else have a contract 29 1 for those services other than AT&T, to your 2 knowledge, for Bell Atlantic? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Okay. Now, I want to just focus on 5 Western Electric. They had a research facility 6 that you were familiar with? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. They have something called 9 the Engineering Research Center? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Where was that located? 12 A. Hopewell, New Jersey. 13 Q. Okay. And was that involved in the 14 manufacturing of products for Western Electric? 15 A. It was my understanding that 16 Hopewell was involved with optimizing the 17 manufacturing of products. 18 Q. Is it your understanding that 19 Western Electric made products for the 20 Operating Companies? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is your understanding of the 23 function of Western Electric as it relates to 24 New Jersey Bell? 25 A. It is my understanding that Western 30 1 Electric provided products to Operating 2 Telephone Companies including New Jersey Bell. 3 Q. Did all New Jersey Bell products 4 come through Western Electric? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. What products came through 7 Western Electric? Well, let me put it this 8 way, what products didn't come through Western 9 Electric to New Jersey Bell, if you know? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection as to the 11 time period, form. 12 A. I know that switches did not come 13 from Western Electric. I know that a lot of 14 products came through Western Electric to New 15 Jersey Bell, and I know that a lot of products 16 came to New Jersey Bell that didn't come from 17 Western Electric. 18 Q. And when you say "from," do you 19 mean manufactured, or do you mean the 20 manufactured or through? Let me clarify it, 21 okay. 22 A. All right. 23 Q. Western Electric manufactured 24 certain products for New Jersey Bell, correct? 25 A. That is correct. 31 1 Q. Did they distribute product to New 2 Jersey Bell that they did not manufacture? 3 A. Yes, they did. 4 Q. What kind of products did they 5 distribute to New Jersey that they did not 6 manufacture, if you know? 7 A. The ones that I was familiar with 8 would be products that we used outside of plant 9 work. 10 Q. What does that mean? 11 A. Outside plant is, basically, 12 equipment that is outside of Central Offices, 13 and, basically, goes to residences and 14 businesses. 15 Q. So let's, say, there's an employee 16 who works out in the field for a Bell Operating 17 Company, do all the products used by that 18 employee come through Western Electric? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. How is that divided up or is 21 it divided up? 22 A. I really couldn't say. It was up 23 to the individual companies and their 24 purchasing. 25 Q. Okay. I'll go a little further. 32 1 You never, personally, worked directly for 2 Western Electric, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. But you had extensive interaction 5 with Western Electric employees; is that fair? 6 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 7 A. I would say that's fair. 8 Q. Now, AT&T did not make products 9 using the operating system, correct? 10 A. I am not aware of AT&T as a 11 corporate entity making products. 12 Q. Right, but -- 13 A. AT&T as the owner of the Western 14 Electric made products. 15 Q. So because they owned Western 16 Electric and Western Electric made the 17 products? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Do you believe that before 1984 20 even though your paycheck was coming from Bell 21 Labs you were, in effect, working for AT&T? 22 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 23 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 24 A. Yes. I believe I was working for 25 AT&T as a company of Bell Laboratories. 33 1 Q. That's where all the direction 2 ultimately came from, right. 3 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 4 A. No, I would say -- 5 Q. Were they at the top of the 6 pyramid? 7 A. From the standpoint of Bell 8 Laboratories, not, it was very much independent 9 of AT&T. 10 Q. All right. After 1996 when Lucent 11 took over, it was your impression you were no 12 longer working for AT&T at that point? 13 A. That was my impression. 14 Q. Now, I want to focus back on Bell 15 Laboratories, the Industrial Hygiene 16 Department. That Department existed at least 17 from the 1960's; is that true. 18 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 19 A. Yes, it did. 20 Q. And you began working for the 21 Industrial Hygiene Department for Bell 22 Laboratories in June or July of 1975? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. At the time you started in that 25 capacity, the Bell Operating System had what, 34 1 about a million employees? 2 A. That's what I was told. 3 Q. Before you worked at Bell Labs in 4 the Industrial Hygiene Department, there were 5 other people who worked as hygienist before 6 you? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And what were their names? 9 A. Well -- 10 Q. That you recall. 11 A. The names that I recall are William 12 Schreibeis, George Wilkening. Those were my 13 supervisor and his boss. There were numerous 14 other people and at the moment I can't recall. 15 Q. Now, Mr. Schreibeis, he lived in 16 Berkeley Heights? 17 A. He did. 18 Q. Is he still living? 19 A. I do not know. 20 Q. And what was his job in relation to 21 yours? 22 A. He was my supervisor. 23 Q. For how long did he remain your 24 supervisor? 25 A. I really could not say, but I don't 35 1 exactly know the dates when -- 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. -- I reported to someone else. 4 Q. Was he still your supervisor after 5 1984 when the divestiture took place? 6 A. I believe so. 7 Q. What was his job function vis-a-vis 8 you as your supervisor? 9 A. Sorry, I don't understand. 10 Q. It's a bad question. 11 A. He was my supervisor. 12 Q. You reported to him? 13 A. I reported to him. 14 Q. Did he give you direction as to 15 what jobs you were to do? 16 A. He did. 17 Q. Who was the head of the Industrial 18 Hygiene Department for Bell Laboratories when 19 you started to work there in 1975? 20 A. In 1975 the head of the department 21 was George Wilkening. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And I believe it was called 24 Environmental Health & Safety. 25 Q. And at some point in time did Mr. 36 1 Schreibeis take over that position? 2 A. He did not. 3 Q. Okay. Who replaced Mr. Wilkening? 4 A. To the best of my knowledge, that 5 would have been Mike Glowats (phonetic). 6 Q. You were hired as part of the Bell 7 System Services Group to examine industrial 8 hygiene issues in the AT&T Operating Companies; 9 is that a fair statement? 10 A. That's a fair statement. 11 Q. And that included New Jersey Bell? 12 A. It did. 13 Q. It included Bell Atlantic? 14 A. No, at the time it did not include 15 Bell Atlantic. 16 Q. At some point in time it included 17 Bell Atlantic? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. In 1984 Bell Atlantic was formed 21 and at that point the Bell System Services 22 Group no longer had that function. 23 Q. What happened to the Bell System 24 services? What took over that function? 25 A. The Bell System Services Group, the 37 1 people in the group continued to exist, and we 2 performed contract work for operating, for the 3 R Box, for each of the Bell Operating 4 Companies. 5 Q. Same exact people, same exact job 6 function? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. Now, I want to just focus on the 9 first five years that you worked as a 10 hygienist. You looked at exposure to toxins in 11 the workplace for Bell Operating Companies? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And that included asbestos exposure 14 from people working with asbestos-containing 15 products? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. I'm just going to go over some of 18 your background on the issue of asbestos. When 19 you were in college you were a physics major, 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. So you didn't take any courses in 23 college on asbestos per se, correct? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. But before joining the Industrial 38 1 Hygiene Department at Bell Labs, is it my 2 understanding, correct, that you went to work, 3 I mean, you went to school at the University of 4 Cincinnati? 5 A. The time frame -- I went to school 6 at the University of Cincinnati after June or 7 July of 1975. 8 Q. Okay. I apologize. And you took 9 specific courses at the University of 10 Cincinnati related to asbestos? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. Did you have, how many courses did 13 you take related to asbestos? 14 A. I took a two-week course at the 15 University of Cincinnati in General Principles 16 of Industrial Hygiene. That probably included 17 several modules on asbestos. In addition, I 18 took other courses not at the University of 19 Cincinnati. 20 Q. Was there some text or resource 21 that you relied upon to consult on the subject 22 of asbestos when you wanted questions 23 answered? 24 MR. MCGOWAN: At the University of 25 Cincinnati? 39 1 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What was that, do you recall? 4 A. Fundamentals of Industrial Hygiene. 5 Q. And do you remember the author of 6 that? 7 A. It was multiple authors, and it was 8 prepared by the American Conference. I'm 9 sorry, I believe -- well, I'm not sure if it 10 was prepared by the American Conference of 11 Industrial Hygienist or the American Industrial 12 Hygiene Association. I am sure it's multiple 13 authors. 14 Q. When you went, when you were 15 working as an industrial hygienist at Bell 16 Laboratories, was there a resource that you 17 would consult when you had questions concerning 18 the issue of asbestos? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What were the resources that you 21 would consult? 22 A. The resources that I would consult 23 would be the OSHA regulations, the OSHA 24 Documentations of the Regulations, the National 25 Institute of Occupational Safety and Health 40 1 Asbestos. They had books published on a number 2 of different materials. The general text on 3 industrial hygiene, primarily the Fundamentals 4 on Industrial Hygiene, and the materials from 5 the courses that I took. 6 Q. Was there a go to person at Bell 7 Labs that you went to that discussed the issues 8 of asbestos exposure? 9 A. It would have been my supervisor, 10 Bill Schreibeis. 11 Q. Now, when you were taking classes 12 at the University of Cincinnati, what was, 13 specifically, told you about the potential 14 dangers of exposure to asbestos? 15 A. I don't recall any specifics other 16 than the general knowledge of the industry 17 hygiene field of asbestos exposure at that 18 time. 19 Q. Were you informed what diseases 20 were associated with asbestos exposure? 21 A. Yes, I was. 22 Q. And which diseases? 23 A. Basically, lung cancer, 24 mesothelioma, emphysema like symptoms, fibrosis 25 in the lungs. Those are the ones that I 41 1 remember. 2 Q. Did you have an understanding as a 3 result of your training and education that it 4 took less exposure to asbestos to cause 5 mesothelioma than, say, lung cancer or 6 asbestosis? 7 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 8 A. No, I wouldn't know. 9 Q. You didn't, know, okay. Now, other 10 than what you've discussed so far, did you have 11 any formal training with respect to Bell 12 Laboratories concerning the potential dangers 13 associated with asbestos exposure? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was that? 16 A. Courses at McCrone Institute. 17 Q. What did you learn there? 18 A. I learned how to analyze air and 19 bulk samples of asbestos. 20 Q. Did those courses also involve the 21 general overview of what the dangers were 22 associated with the exposure to asbestos? 23 A. I am almost certain it would have, 24 but I can't recall the specifics. 25 Q. Now, in your courses and in your 42 1 work, are there basic principles of worker 2 protection to prevent exposure to industrial 3 dust that are recognized by industrial 4 hygienist? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And as an industrial hygienist for 7 Bell Laboratories, did you recognize the 8 principle that a company should know about the 9 potential dangers associated with the use of 10 its product? 11 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. As an industrial hygienist 14 for Bell, did you recognize the principle that 15 a company should warn consumers about dangers 16 associated with the use of its products? 17 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. As an industrial hygienist for 20 Bell, did you recognize the principle that a 21 company does not own knowledge about the 22 dangers of its product? In other words, what I 23 mean by that is, that a company should share 24 the knowledge about product dangers with 25 workers or consumers? 43 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. As an industrial hygienist for 4 Bell, did you recognize the principle that a 5 worker has the right to know what a distributor 6 knows about the hazards with the use of its 7 product? 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. As an industrial hygienist for Bell 11 Laboratories, did you recognize the principle 12 that a company should never mislead workers 13 about the safety of its products? 14 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. As an industrial hygienist working 17 for Bell, did you recognize the principle that 18 a company should always tell the truth about 19 any dangers associated with the use of its 20 products? 21 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. As an industry hygienist for Bell 24 Laboratories, did you recognize the principle 25 that safety is the primary concern when selling 44 1 products to consumers? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. The primary concern, yes. 4 Q. Okay. You agree with the principle 5 as an industrial hygienist for Bell that a 6 company should never withhold information about 7 dangers associated with the use of its 8 products? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You agree with the principle as a 11 hygienist for Bell that a company should never 12 put profits before worker safety? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You agree with the principle as the 15 hygienist for Bell that the greater the danger 16 associated with the use of a product, the 17 stronger the warning is necessary? 18 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You agree with the principle as an 21 industrial hygienist for Bell that a warning 22 should inform workers how to use a product 23 safely? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, as an industrial hygienist 45 1 working for Bell, did you recognize that there 2 were certain principles to prevent exposure to 3 industrial dust? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what were those principles? 6 A. Quite a number. 7 Q. Did you recognize the principle of 8 engineering controls? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did engineering controls 11 include ventilation? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And am I correct that the principle 14 of engineering controls to prevent exposure to 15 industrial dust predated your becoming a 16 hygienist by decades? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did you recognize the principle 19 of segregation of work force as a way of 20 preventing exposure to industrial dust? 21 A. I am not sure what you mean by 22 segregation of the work force. 23 Q. In other words, if you don't have 24 to be in the area were there's industrial dust, 25 you segregate those operations from those who 46 1 necessarily have to be there? 2 A. I recognize that principle. 3 Q. As a principal of industrial 4 hygiene for Bell, did you recognize the use of 5 respirators as a way to prevent exposure to 6 industrial dust? 7 MR. DISIPIO: Objection to form. 8 A. Yes, one. 9 Q. First we start, I'm going to go 10 with the priorities with you. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. And that principle also predated 13 your beginning in the Industrial Hygiene 14 Department at Bell by decades, true? 15 A. True. 16 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 17 Q. And did you recognize as an 18 industrial hygienist for Bell, did you 19 recognize the principle that workers should be 20 warned to prevent exposure to industrial dust? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that principle also predated 23 your joining Bell as an industrial hygienist by 24 decades, true? 25 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 47 1 A. True. 2 Q. And did you recognize the principle 3 of supplying changing rooms as a way to prevent 4 take-home exposure to toxins that were 5 generated in the workplace? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that principle also predated 8 your joining Bell as an industrial hygienist by 9 any decade, true? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 11 A. True. 12 Q. Now, in terms of priorities, as an 13 industrial hygienist the first thing you do is 14 you look to see if you can engineer out the 15 danger, correct? 16 A. Incorrect. 17 Q. What's the first thing you do? You 18 assess the danger? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. So I miss that one. 21 A. I would go even further than that. 22 I would anticipate the possibility of a 23 danger. 24 Q. Okay. So the first thing you would 25 do as a principle of industrial hygiene is 48 1 anticipate the possibility of a danger. What 2 does that mean? 3 A. Basically, you're looking at the 4 type of work that might be done in the future 5 to determining how it can be done safer. 6 Q. Does the anticipation of the danger 7 include research into the available resources 8 that would provide background information on 9 that danger? 10 A. It would include that, yes. 11 Q. Would it include library research, 12 reading text, those kinds of things? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So the first thing I'm going to do 15 in order to protect the worker as an industrial 16 hygienist is we're going to anticipate the 17 dangers, correct? 18 A. Anticipate the potential dangers. 19 Q. Potential dangers. That includes 20 doing whatever research is necessary to bring 21 you up to speed? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. What's the next thing in order of 24 priority? 25 A. The next thing would be to 49 1 evaluate. 2 Q. All right. An evaluation includes, 3 when you say evaluation, what do you mean by 4 that? 5 A. I'm sorry. When I say evaluate, I 6 mean one would determine whether or not an 7 exposure actually existed. 8 Q. And how would you do that? 9 A. In the case of asbestos, one would 10 do air monitoring. 11 Q. And the principle for air 12 monitoring for asbestos went back to the 13 1940's; is that fair? 14 A. I believe it did. 15 Q. But at some point in time the way 16 you technically did it changed; is that fair? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. All right. So it was known in the 19 1940's that in order to assess whether a hazard 20 exist with people working with 21 asbestos-containing products that air 22 monitoring should be done; is that fair? 23 A. That's true. 24 Q. Okay. Now, and you're aware that 25 was actually required as a regulation in the 50 1 State of New Jersey in the 1950's? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. I am not aware of that. 4 Q. Okay. What's the next thing after 5 you evaluate whether a -- scratch that. When 6 you make an evaluation, do you evaluate whether 7 there's an actual danger or a potential danger? 8 A. Yes, both. 9 Q. And if you determine there's a 10 potential danger, is your next line of defense 11 different than an actual danger? 12 A. Actual danger, yes. 13 Q. Okay. If you've determined there's 14 an actual danger by doing monitoring or 15 investigation, what is the next thing, what is 16 the next principle of industrial hygiene that 17 you would have employed to prevent exposure to 18 industrial dust? 19 A. Talking hypothetically here but the 20 next thing if it was an actual thing, you'd 21 probably stop the work, cease the work 22 activities. 23 Q. Altogether? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. 51 1 A. Which would be different than if 2 there's a potential. 3 Q. Tell me, just so I understand it in 4 formulating my questions, in your mind what is 5 the difference between an actual danger and a 6 potential danger? 7 A. An actual danger is one that you've 8 recognized that you perhaps have exceeded an 9 occupational exposure limit. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. The potential is that you have the 12 potential for exceeding an occupational 13 exposure limit. 14 Q. So if you know that you've exceeded 15 the exposure limit, you should stop that 16 operation altogether, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And the only way that you would 19 know if you exceeded the limit is by doing 20 actual testing? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. So it was a recognized principle of 23 industrial hygiene going back to the 1940's for 24 asbestos that you needed to do testing to make 25 that determination? 52 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 2 Q. Correct? 3 A. I don't know the date that came 4 out. In the 1940's, 1950's that was beyond my 5 knowledge. 6 Q. Okay. If there was potential 7 danger, you determine there was a potential 8 danger, what principle of industrial hygiene 9 would be employed addressing potential danger? 10 A. We would try using what methods of 11 control you could come up with. 12 Q. And in terms of priority, what 13 would the methods of control be? 14 A. In my -- the first priority would 15 be substitute a less hazardous product. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I can go down the list if you like. 18 Q. Sure, please. Go ahead. 19 A. The first priority would be 20 substitute a less hazardous product. The 21 second one would be a process change. The 22 third one would be looking at some form of 23 exhaust ventilation. The fourth one would be 24 dilution ventilation and then the last one 25 would be individual personal protection. 53 1 Q. Where does warnings come in the 2 priorities? 3 A. I don't consider that part of the 4 control measures. 5 Q. Okay. But in terms of the control 6 measures that you've just discussed, those were 7 principles recognized by industrial hygiene 8 long before you started working for Bell 9 Laboratories, correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Okay. Do you recognize warning a 12 worker as one of the available resources in 13 your armory to protect that worker from 14 exposure to hazardous dust? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. What in your mind, let me 17 just go back through and maybe I can get some 18 sense. Focusing on the subject of asbestos, 19 did all of the controls that you just went 20 through for me, apply to asbestos in your mind? 21 A. They did. 22 Q. Okay. And those controls for 23 asbestos would have also predated your joining 24 the Industrial Hygiene Department at Bell by 25 decades, true? 54 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 2 A. True. 3 Q. And you would agree with me that it 4 had been recognized for decades before you 5 started with Bell that workers were entitled to 6 a sane appreciation of risk they would 7 encounter in the workplace when working with 8 asbestos-containing products, true? 9 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 10 A. Could you please rephrase that 11 question? 12 Q. Would you agree that workers were 13 entitled as a principle of industrial hygiene 14 to a sane appreciation of the risk? 15 A. I'm not sure of the word sane. 16 Sane, what do you mean by that? 17 Q. You've never seen that in an 18 industrial hygiene publication? 19 A. Sane, s-a-n-e? 20 Q. Correct. 21 A. I must have seen it, but I'm not 22 familiar with the use of the word sane. 23 Q. No problem. You would agree that 24 any warning should be clear as to the level of 25 risk when related to the worker? 55 1 A. I would agree. 2 Q. And that in addition anytime you 3 would need to warn somebody, training would 4 also be part of an industrial hygiene program 5 to protect against exposure to asbestos? 6 A. I consider warning to be a facet of 7 training. 8 Q. Okay. Now, do industrial hygiene 9 principles recognize that a worker has a right 10 to know of hazardous operations being carried 11 out in his or her vicinity? 12 A. I agree. 13 Q. And that would also go back decades 14 before you became an industrial hygienist? 15 A. It would. 16 Q. Do industrial hygiene principles 17 recognize the worker had a right to know 18 whether products he is being asked to use had 19 toxic ingredients? 20 A. I agree with that. 21 Q. And that would also go back decades 22 before you became an industrial hygienist? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do industrial hygiene principles 25 recognize workers' right to know if the dust 56 1 generated by the cutting or fabrication 2 materials he's using is toxic? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Did industrial hygiene 5 principles recognized that any exposure to 6 human carcinogen should be eliminated whenever 7 possible? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that also predated your 10 becoming an industrial hygienist by decades, 11 true? 12 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And for asbestos at least into the 15 1950's, true? 16 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 17 A. Would you please rephrase that? 18 Q. Yeah. In other words it was a 19 recognized principle that for asbestos, that 20 was a carcinogen going back at least to the 21 1950's. 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 23 A. I believe so. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: He's got like two 25 minutes on the tape, do you want to take a 57 1 break? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: That's fine if that's 3 a good time for you. 4 MR. PLACITELLA: How about five 5 minutes? 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 7 record. This is Tape Number One, time is 8 eleven o'clock. 9 (Whereupon a brief recess is 10 taken.) 11 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is Tape 2 of 12 the videotape deposition of Charles Paul 13 Lichtenwalner in the mater of Degnan vs 14 Lucent. We are on the record and the 15 video time is 11:08. 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 17 Q. From the information you had as an 18 industrial hygienist for Bell, did AT&T have 19 the money and resources to conduct the proper 20 testing to determine if asbestos hazardous 21 existed in the workplace? 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did AT&T have the money and the 25 resources to ensure the workers were properly 58 1 warned of asbestos hazardous in the workplace? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did Western Electric have the money 5 and resources to conduct the proper testing to 6 determine if asbestos hazardous existed in the 7 workplace? 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did Western Electric have the money 11 and resources to ensure workers were properly 12 warned of hazards in the workplace? 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did Western Electric have the money 16 and the resources to ensure that workers were 17 properly warned of hazardous associated with 18 the products they sold to Bell Operating 19 Companies? 20 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Including New Jersey Bell? 23 A. Including New Jersey Bell. 24 Q. Did Bell Laboratories have the 25 money and the resources to conduct proper 59 1 testing to determine if asbestos hazards 2 existed in the workplace? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did Bell Laboratories have the 5 money and the resources to ensure workers were 6 properly warned of hazards in the workplace? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, am I correct that when you 9 started at, as an industrial hygienist, Bell 10 Labs had already recognized asbestos as a 11 potential human carcinogen? 12 A. I'm not sure what you mean by Bell 13 Labs already recognized individuals at Bell 14 Labs? 15 Q. People working in the Industrial 16 Hygiene Department. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did individuals working in the 19 Industrial Hygiene Department at Bell 20 Laboratories recognized that asbestos exposure 21 can cause mesothelioma when you first started 22 working there? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. At the time you started working at 25 Bell Laboratories, did Bell Laboratories 60 1 recognize asbestos as a carcinogen to be 2 concerned about in the workplace of the 3 Operating Companies? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was it your understanding that this 6 knowledge predated your joining Bell Labs as an 7 industrial hygienist? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Your boss, Mr. Schreibeis -- 10 A. Schreibeis. 11 Q. He had extensive knowledge about 12 the dangers of asbestos -- 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 14 Q. -- did he not? 15 A. Do you mean extensive was he an 16 expert? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. In asbestos, no. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. But he was an expert in industrial 21 hygiene. 22 Q. He was before he became to Bell 23 Laboratories, he was actually the industrial 24 hygienist for the Industrial Hygiene 25 Foundation, did you know that? 61 1 A. I believe, I knew he was a member 2 of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation. 3 Q. Did you know he worked as an 4 industrial hygienist for the Industrial Hygiene 5 Foundation? 6 A. I did not know that. 7 Q. And whatever information he had as 8 an industrial hygienist for the Industrial 9 Hygiene Foundation he would have brought with 10 him to Bell Laboratories. Would you agree with 11 that? 12 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 13 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 14 A. I don't believe he would have 15 forgotten information that he knew in the past. 16 Q. So he was aware of all the -- he 17 worked at the Industrial Hygiene Foundation 18 back in the 1950's, right? 19 A. I do not know. 20 Q. You were a member of the American 21 Industrial Hygiene Association, correct? 22 A. And still am. 23 Q. Still am. And so is Mr. 24 Schreibeis, correct? 25 A. Correct. 62 1 Q. Now, when you're a member of the 2 American Industrial Hygiene Association, what 3 were the benefits of membership? 4 A. The ability to attend professional 5 conferences at reduced rates and monthly 6 journal, I believe it was a monthly journal, 7 actually bimonthly journal, professional 8 meetings local and national, the ability to 9 meet people with, you know, networking. All of 10 that. 11 Q. From time to time, did the American 12 Industrial Hygiene Association's journal 13 contain articles on asbestos exposure and the 14 potential dangers of asbestos? 15 A. It did. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you mark 17 this on P-1. 18 (Whereupon document is marked as 19 P-1 for identification.) 20 Q. Take a look at P-1, Mr. Lichtenwalner. 21 In front of you, you have something called 22 Membership Booklet American Industrial 23 Association 1958, 1959. Do you see that? 24 A. I see it. 25 Q. And it's not the full booklet 63 1 'cause it is hundreds of pages. Could you flip 2 to the last page? You see the last page? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. The fourth name from the top on the 5 left side on page 69, what is that name? 6 A. Fourth name from the top? 7 Q. From the bottom, I'm sorry. 8 A. You're talking about Mr. Schreibeis, 9 Mr. William J.? 10 Q. Right. Was that the same person 11 that was your boss? 12 A. I believe that was my boss. 13 Q. And it says there that he worked 14 for whom? 15 A. Industrial Hygiene Foundation. 16 Q. Now, that's all I have on that. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this one 18 next. 19 (Whereupon document is marked as 20 P-2 for identification.) 21 Q. I have in front of you the 1966, 22 1967 Membership book for the American 23 Association Industrial Hygiene Association, 24 correct? 25 A. Correct. 64 1 Q. Can you flip to the last page? You 2 see the third name from the top on the right- 3 hand side of page 88? 4 A. Mr. William J. Schreibeis, I do. 5 Q. And is that the same William J. 6 Schreibeis who worked for the Industrial 7 Hygiene Foundation. 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 9 Q. -- by virtue of the prior membership 10 list? 11 A. I believe it is. 12 Q. And it says, who does he work for 13 there? 14 A. Bell Telephone Labs. 15 Q. Now, would you agree with me that 16 without proper abatement an area contaminated 17 with asbestos remains contaminated with 18 asbestos? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why not? 21 A. I'm sorry, yes, it remains 22 contaminated with asbestos. It may or may not 23 be airborne that it could expose people. 24 Q. What do you mean by that? 25 A. What I am talking about, an area 65 1 that's contaminated I guess is continued to be, 2 asbestos will continue to be present there, 3 yes. 4 Q. And that will remain indefinitely 5 unless there was proper abatement process? 6 A. Even with abatement process, it may 7 remain there. 8 Q. And what would be a proper 9 abatement process? 10 A. Various types of abatement were 11 used, is used. One is the removal of 12 asbestos. One is encapsulation of the 13 asbestos. 14 Q. Once the asbestos becomes airborne 15 in the work environment, does it continue to 16 contaminate that environment without proper 17 abatement? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And does that remain indefinitely? 20 A. I couldn't say. 21 Q. When you started working as an 22 industrial hygienist in 1975 for Bell 23 Laboratories, was asbestos exposure for Bell 24 Operating Companies a major problem you had to 25 deal with? 66 1 A. It was not. 2 Q. Was it a major problem that you had 3 to address? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you recognize as an industrial 6 hygienist for Bell Laboratories that asbestos 7 exposure and smoking increases the risk of 8 cancer? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. As an industrial hygienist for Bell 11 Laboratories, did you discriminate between the 12 types of asbestos in determining if there was a 13 hazard present in the work place to a worker? 14 A. We did not. 15 Q. Does the presence of a visible dust 16 in connection with the use of a known asbestos- 17 containing product, is that an indication of a 18 hazard? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Is the presence of visible 21 dust in connection with the use of a known 22 asbestos-containing product an indication of a 23 potential hazard? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when there's an indication of a 67 1 potential hazard because of the presence of 2 dust where asbestos-containing products were 3 used, what is necessary from industrial hygiene 4 perspective to address that situation? 5 A. Evaluate whether or not that 6 potential hazard could become a real hazard. 7 Q. And how do you do that? 8 A. Collect bulk samples to determine 9 that asbestos is present. Collect air 10 monitoring to determine what gets into the air. 11 Q. Now, you would agree then that the 12 presence of visible dust in connection with the 13 use of a known asbestos-containing products 14 would warrant further investigation or testing? 15 A. I would agree with that. 16 Q. At what point are you -- scratch 17 that. Are you familiar with the concept of a 18 threshold limit value? 19 A. I am. 20 Q. Are you familiar with the concept 21 of a threshold limit value in terms of millions 22 of particles per cubic foot? 23 A. I am. 24 Q. Okay. At one point in time the 25 threshold limit value for asbestos-containing 68 1 dust was five million particles per cubic foot; 2 is that fair? 3 A. I don't know the exact number, but 4 I know that there was a particle standard, yes. 5 Q. At what point in time is asbestos- 6 containing dust become visible to the naked eye 7 -- scratch that. Are you able to tell, is 8 there a cutoff in terms of any measuring where 9 asbestos-containing dust -- scratch that. 10 Would you agree with me that there 11 is some asbestos-containing dust that is 12 invisible? 13 A. Invisible to the naked eye? 14 Q. Correct. 15 A. I would agree with that. 16 Q. And at some point if there's enough 17 dust, the aggregate of the asbestos-containing 18 dust can become visible to the naked eye, would 19 you agree with that? 20 A. I would agree with that. 21 Q. Do you know at what point in the 22 continuum where dust containing asbestos 23 becomes visible versus invisible to the naked 24 eye? 25 A. I do not. 69 1 Q. So if you know that there is an 2 asbestos-containing product being used in the 3 workplace, how do you know whether there's 4 enough asbestos in the workplace in order to 5 determine whether there's a risk for real 6 exposure? 7 A. I know that by air monitoring. 8 Q. Without air monitoring, is there 9 anyway to tell? 10 A. Not to my knowledge. 11 Q. So would it then be that a proper 12 principle of industry hygiene would be that if 13 you know that someone is working with or around 14 an asbestos-containing product, in order to 15 find out whether that person is at risk, air 16 monitoring would have to be done? 17 A. Sorry -- yes, I would agree that 18 air monitoring is used to determining asbestos 19 exposure risk. 20 Q. And without that monitoring there 21 is no way to tell? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. So if you suspect that somebody is 24 working with asbestos in the workplace as a 25 principle of industrial hygiene you should 70 1 monitor, do a monitoring to see if asbestos 2 fibers can be released, would agree with that? 3 A. I would agree with that. 4 Q. Okay. Now, at some point in time, 5 did Bell Laboratories create a videotape 6 relating to asbestos hazards to be used in 7 training? 8 A. Possibly. 9 Q. Do you remember seeing such a 10 videotape? 11 A. At the moment I don't remember. 12 Q. To your knowledge, when is the 13 first time that Bell Laboratories conducted any 14 testing for the presence of asbestos-containing 15 dust in the work environment for any Bell 16 Operating Company? 17 A. To my knowledge, it would have been 18 after June or July of 1975 but there may have 19 been prior ones done by Mr. Schreibeis. 20 Q. Why June or July 1975 stand out? 21 A. That's the time when I was hired to 22 work in the Bell Systems Group. 23 Q. All right. So one of the reasons 24 you were hired was to actually help do the air 25 monitoring? 71 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Okay. And prior to that time, was 3 there any program in place in the Bell 4 Operating Companies for air monitoring for 5 asbestos-containing dust? 6 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Given the fact that you articulated 9 that monitoring was something that should be 10 done going back to the 1940's, do you know why 11 it was never done before 1975 -- 12 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 13 Q. -- by Bell? 14 A. Okay. Bell Laboratories -- 15 Q. Correct? 16 A. -- Western Electric, New Jersey 17 Bell, I'm sorry, which company are you 18 referring to? 19 Q. Any of them. 20 A. I believe that Western Electric 21 would have conducted air monitoring for 22 asbestos. I am not aware of it, but I believe 23 they would have done so. 24 Q. And they would have done that in 25 the context of their manufacturing facilities? 72 1 A. I believe that. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. This is something that I know for a 4 fact. 5 Q. All right. Do you have any 6 information as to whether Western Electric 7 conducted air monitoring where workers actually 8 used their product out in the field? 9 A. Not to my knowledge. 10 Q. Okay. Do you know why from your 11 experience no air monitoring was done by Bell 12 Laboratories for asbestos-containing dust 13 before 1975 when you got there? 14 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 15 MR. HORNBY: Objection to form. 16 A. First part is you stated no 17 monitoring was done. I cannot verify or 18 confirm or deny no monitoring was done. 19 Q. Okay. Now, is it my understanding, 20 correct, that the industrial hygiene records 21 for the Bell Labs Group would go back for say 22 1962? 23 A. I believe they would. 24 Q. Okay. And what was retained in 25 those records? 73 1 A. Reports of industrial hygiene 2 monitoring, letters. 3 Q. If monitoring was actually done by 4 Bell Laboratories prior to 1975, would you 5 expect it to be in those records? 6 A. I would. 7 Q. Now, at some point in time you 8 actually yourself, personally, went back and 9 reviewed some of those records, true? 10 A. No, I did not. 11 Q. Well, those records were originally 12 stored I microfiche? 13 A. They were not stored on microfiche 14 until after I joined the organization. 15 Q. And then what happened? At whose 16 direction were they put on microfiche? 17 A. I suspect it came from George 18 Wilkening. 19 Q. And at the some point the 20 microfiche was then converted to CD-ROM? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. And was that CD-ROM work 23 searchable? 24 A. It was. 25 Q. And where was that data then 74 1 stored? 2 A. One set of the CD-ROMS was stored 3 on my desk. I don't know where the others, 4 data is stored. 5 Q. And when you left. What happened 6 to that data? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Who did you turn it over too? 9 A. Before I left, the CD-ROMS I don't 10 know, specifically, what happened to the 11 CD-ROMS. 12 Q. Was there a man by the name of Sean 13 VanDuran who took control of any of that 14 information? 15 A. Quite possible. 16 Q. Okay. And who is he? He's a 17 hygienist in your group? 18 A. Sean VanDuran was a hygienist in 19 our group. 20 Q. In addition to the industrial 21 hygiene testing, if any was done, what other 22 kinds of records would be contained on those 23 CD-ROMS related to the Bell Laboratories 24 Industrial Hygiene Department? 25 A. Those records were called 75 1 chronological files and it was basically 2 people's files on day-to-day basis what they 3 retained. 4 Q. So for instance, they'd have a file 5 for, they'd have a file for Schreibeis? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Okay. Did you ever conduct air 8 testing for asbestos in telephone company 9 offices for New Jersey Bell? 10 A. I did. 11 Q. Where did you do that? 12 A. I could not tell you, specifically, 13 the buildings. I did not -- 14 Q. Do you remember what town it was? 15 A. We certainly did them in New 16 Brunswick. We did them for asbestos probably 17 in Newark, and there would have been other 18 locations. 19 Q. And one of the things that you were 20 doing was testing to see if there was asbestos 21 in the general ambient air? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And did you actually discover trace 24 amounts of asbestos present in the ambient air 25 in the New Jersey Bell Telephone buildings? 76 1 A. We discovered trace amounts of 2 fibrous, yes. 3 Q. And when that discovery was made, 4 what, if any, action was taken? 5 A. The amount number of fibers per 6 cubic centimeter of air were compared to the 7 occupational exposure limits. To my knowledge, 8 they were all below, well below the 9 occupational limits at the time. So the action 10 that was taken was basically reporting those 11 results to the various people. 12 Q. Do you know whether the workers or 13 people who worked in that environment were told 14 about the results of your surveys? 15 A. I know that the supervisors of 16 those workers were told of those results. 17 Q. Well, what about the actual people 18 who were walking through the building? 19 A. I could not say. 20 Q. If someone was working with or 21 around an asbestos-containing product, and 22 asbestos is released, the ambient level of 23 asbestos would be increased in the background, 24 would you agree with that? 25 A. I would agree with that. 77 1 Q. The fibers that you found in the 2 offices of New Jersey Bell, were they above 3 background levels? 4 A. Generally, not. 5 Q. Were there some? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, would you agree that the 8 deterioration and aging of an asbestos- 9 containing product can cause release of 10 asbestos fiber? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Were you responsible for evaluating 13 the occupational health exposure of Operating 14 Company employees? 15 A. I was. 16 Q. And did that include New Jersey 17 Bell? 18 A. It does. 19 Q. Subsequently Bell Atlantic? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And was that job to investigate and 22 evaluate whether there were occupational 23 exposures to asbestos? 24 A. It included that, correct. 25 Q. Did New Jersey Bell rely upon your 78 1 laboratory for communication of hazards found 2 in the workplace? 3 A. I would say not. 4 Q. Who was supposed to communicate the 5 hazards found in the workplace? 6 A. I believe that would have been the 7 function of New Jersey Bell safety staff. 8 Q. Who was it that communicated to New 9 Jersey Bell the findings of hazards in the 10 workplace? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. Did Bell Laboratories have any 13 program in place to make sure that the 14 findings, its findings concerning hazard in the 15 workplace were communicated to the employees of 16 the Operating Companies? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what was that? 19 A. The reports that we generated were 20 sent to the Occupational Health Working Group 21 and from the Occupational Health Working Group 22 they were distributed to safety and medical 23 staff of the Operating Telephone Companies. 24 Q. But how did you ensure that the 25 administrative staff and the safety people in 79 1 the Operating Companies actually communicated 2 that information to the actual worker? 3 A. I did not ensure that. 4 Q. AT&T as the parent running the 5 show, did they have a program in place to make 6 sure that the information that you discovered 7 ultimately found its way into the actual 8 workers? 9 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Now, I think you told me before 12 that Western Electric had its own industrial 13 hygienist? 14 A. They did. 15 Q. Did you know a man by the name of 16 George Ware? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. Frank Worden? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Gene Dennison? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were they all industrial hygienist 23 for Western Electric that you had interaction 24 with? 25 A. Yes, they were. 80 1 Q. Did you consult with Western 2 Electric hygienist on a regular basis? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 4 A. I'd, say, not on a regular basis, 5 but intermittently. 6 Q. Did you actually visit Western 7 Electric plants? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Did you do that many times? 10 A. Define many. 11 Q. Did you discuss the subject of 12 asbestos with Western Electric hygienists? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what was the sum and substance 15 of those discussions? Can you recall? 16 A. They would have been general 17 industrial hygiene professional discussions. 18 Q. Okay. You just referred to 19 something called the Occupational Health 20 Working Group? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. That was a management level group 23 that discussed occupational health concerns? 24 A. It did. 25 Q. And did those occupational health 81 1 concerns include asbestos? 2 A. They did. 3 Q. Did the Occupational Health Working 4 Group, did that consistent of the medical 5 director for Western Electric? 6 A. It did. 7 Q. Do you remember who that was? 8 A. If you give me a name I might be 9 able to confirm it but at the moment, I don't 10 remember. 11 Q. Did the Occupational Health Working 12 Group include industrial hygienist from Western 13 Electric? 14 A. It did. 15 Q. Did the Occupational Health Working 16 Group include the medical director for Bell 17 Labs? 18 A. I am not sure. 19 Q. Did it include the industrial 20 hygiene director for Bell Laboratories? 21 A. It did. 22 Q. Am I correct that as part of your 23 job function, you frequently consulted with the 24 Occupational Health Working Group? 25 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 82 1 A. I would not say frequent. 2 Q. How about all the time? 3 A. No, not all time. 4 Q. Is it true in some sense that you 5 worked for the Occupational Health Working 6 Group? 7 A. Yes, that is true. 8 Q. And that you were charged with 9 looking at health hazards and then reporting to 10 them? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. So anything that you learned as an 13 industrial hygienist was no secret? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And all the things that you knew 16 about the dangers of asbestos, the member of 17 the Occupational Health Working Group would 18 have know as well? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 A. They would. 21 Q. And all the principles that we went 22 through earlier about how to protect workers, 23 all those principles were also known to the 24 members of Occupational Health Working Group, 25 true? 83 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 2 A. True. 3 Q. Now, asbestos was one of the 4 subjects that the Occupational Health Working 5 Group was concerned with? 6 A. True. 7 Q. Am I correct the Occupational 8 Health Working Group actually oversaw the 9 operations of the industrial hygienist working 10 at Bell Labs? 11 A. It did. 12 Q. So AT&T, for example, knew 13 everything you were doing, in effect? 14 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection. 15 A. Define AT&T. 16 Q. Their medical director. 17 A. True. 18 Q. And the head industrial hygienist 19 at Western Electric knew everything that you 20 were doing? 21 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You gave them the information that 24 you uncovered, correct? 25 A. That is correct. 84 1 Q. It was then up to them to determine 2 what to do with it, right? 3 A. It was not my job, right. 4 Q. So if a program had to be developed 5 to make sure that the actual worker in the 6 field got the information, that would have been 7 the function of the Occupational Health Working 8 Group? 9 A. I would not phrase it that way. 10 Q. Okay. How would you phrase it? 11 A. The way I would phrase it is the 12 Occupational Health Working Group would provide 13 the information to the Operating Telephone 14 Companies. It would then be their 15 responsibility to provide that information. 16 Q. But the Operating Telephone 17 Companies were also part of the Occupational 18 Health Working Group, were they not? 19 A. Not really, no. 20 Q. They didn't have members? 21 A. There was generally one member of 22 one of the operation, the Operating Telephone 23 Companies as part of the Occupational Health 24 Working Group, but they did not all have 25 representatives in that group. 85 1 Q. Okay. The Bell System, just so I 2 make sure that I am clear, the Bell System 3 Services Group was charged with looking at the 4 industrial hygiene exposures to Operating 5 Company employees? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Okay. And you would, specifically, 8 go out in the field and watch Operating Company 9 employees do work? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. That included work with asbestos- 12 containing products, true? 13 A. There were no asbestos-containing 14 products, to my knowledge, that they used. 15 Q. Well, you were aware that employees 16 of the Operating Companies worked with or 17 around asbestos products as part of their job? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Okay. Did you ever observe them 20 doing that? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. And do you know what a cable 23 splicer is? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. What's a cable splicer? 86 1 A. A cable splicer, to my knowledge, 2 is a person who is charged with taking and 3 making connections to cables. Basically, 4 that's their primary role, opening cables and 5 then making connections and closing them. 6 Q. Okay. Did you as part of your 7 responsibilities observe the activities, the 8 work activities of cable splicers? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. On how many occasions? 11 A. I would estimate several hundred. 12 Q. Okay. And did you do that for 13 cable splicers at the New Jersey Bell? 14 A. I did. 15 Q. What locations do you recall or the 16 kinds of locations? 17 A. The kinds of locations, basically, 18 for cable splicers we defined it, I believe the 19 did as well, aerial buried and underground. So 20 we looked at all of those types of work. 21 Q. Did you understand the kinds of 22 products the cable splicers were using in order 23 to perform their work? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How detail was your understanding? 87 1 A. I am not sure how to answer that 2 question. 3 Q. Were you aware of all products they 4 used or generally what they used? 5 A. I was aware, I was trying to make 6 myself aware of most of the products that they 7 used. 8 Q. As you sit here today, can you say 9 that you were aware of all or just some of the 10 products they used? 11 A. I can almost guarantee you I was 12 not aware of all because there were many of 13 them. 14 Q. Are you aware that employees of the 15 Bell Operating Companies would use asbestos- 16 containing gloves? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Are you aware that employees 19 of the Bell Operating Companies would work with 20 asbestos insulated cable? 21 A. I am not aware of any asbestos 22 insulated cable. 23 Q. Did you observe exposure to 24 asbestos when asbestos-containing products were 25 damaged or caused the release of fibers into 88 1 the air? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. Yeah. That was my job to look at 4 that. 5 Q. What was a Bell System catalog of 6 supplies? Are you familiar with that? 7 A. Bell System catalog of supplies? 8 I'm not familiar exactly with that. There were 9 a number of catalogs and supplies. 10 Q. Do you know where, let's say 11 somebody had gloves and they needed them for 12 work on the job, where would, how would they 13 get those gloves, how would they order them, 14 how would they get to them? 15 A. My understanding is that they would 16 order them through their supervisor. 17 Q. And do you know for instance, who 18 would be the supplier of those gloves to the 19 Bell Operating Companies? 20 A. In many cases it would be Western 21 Electric, but they could also go out and 22 purchase them on their own. 23 Q. Did they have to get special 24 permission to do that? 25 A. Not to my knowledge. 89 1 Q. Okay. Are you aware that employees 2 would use asbestos-containing gloves when they 3 were performing soldering operations? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you ever seen that done? 6 A. Have I ever seen soldering 7 operation or asbestos containing -- 8 Q. Well, have you ever seen a 9 soldering operation? 10 A. I have. 11 Q. Okay. And did the employees wear 12 gloves in the soldering operation? 13 A. There's two types of soldering 14 operations. 15 Q. Well, do they have soldering 16 operations up on the poles? 17 A. I did not observes soldering 18 operations up on the pole. 19 Q. Did you observe soldering 20 operations in manholes? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Who was performing those 23 operations? 24 A. They were performed by cable 25 splicers. 90 1 Q. Do you know when soldering 2 operations were being performed in manholes if 3 whether the people doing that operation would 4 be wearing protective clothing? 5 A. They would. 6 Q. What kind of protective clothing? 7 A. They would be wearing gloves. 8 Q. What kind of gloves? 9 A. The ones that I observed were 10 leather. 11 Q. Leather? 12 A. Leather. 13 Q. At what point in time? Was that 14 from 1975 forward? 15 A. Right, that's correct. 16 Q. Do you have any idea what kind of 17 gloves were being used prior to 1975 when you 18 got there for soldering operations in manholes? 19 A. I do not know. 20 Q. Who would know that? 21 A. Probably, I really couldn't say. 22 Q. If there was sworn testimony 23 indicating that asbestos-containing gloves were 24 used in manholes during soldering operations, 25 would you have any information to rebut that. 91 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 2 A. I have no information to rebut it. 3 Q. If there was testimony that 4 asbestos-containing gloves were used on poles 5 during soldering operations, would you have any 6 information to rebut that? 7 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 8 A. It's not something that I've ever 9 seen. 10 Q. Okay. Now, were asbestos- 11 containing gloves a source for asbestos 12 exposure for Bell Telephone employees? 13 A. Not exposures above the 14 occupational exposure limit. 15 Q. The way you're qualifying it, were 16 there sources of exposure limit whether or not 17 it was above? 18 A. They were a source of potential of 19 asbestos exposure. 20 Q. Did you ever actually do readings 21 for how much asbestos, if any, was released 22 during the use of an asbestos-containing glove? 23 A. I, personally, did not. 24 Q. Did Bell Labs do it? 25 A. Other individuals in our group did. 92 1 Q. And were those reads are made known 2 to you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And how? 5 A. They would have been, I would have 6 seen the reports if they had passed. 7 Q. Do you recall what the results of 8 those readings were? 9 A. As I recall, they were below the 10 occupational exposure limits. 11 Q. Were they above background? 12 A. I couldn't say. 13 Q. So your focus was whether it was 14 above or below not how much? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 16 Q. Scratch that. In other words, as 17 long as it was below, you didn't care about how 18 much below? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Do you know if asbestos-containing 22 gloves used by Operating Company employees 23 released asbestos into the ambient work 24 environment? 25 A. To my knowledge, we never measured 93 1 anything above the occupational exposure 2 limits. 3 Q. At the some point in time, however, 4 there was a recommendation made to get rid of 5 all the asbestos-containing gloves in the Bell 6 Operating Systems, correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 9 Q. And that recollection was made by 10 somebody that worked for you? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Who made that recommendation? 13 A. As I recall, that recommendation 14 came out from someone in AT&T. 15 Q. Okay. And when was that? 16 A. I can't say. I would guess 17 somewhere in the 1975 to '84 time frame. 18 Q. And why was that recommendation 19 made? 20 A. It was believed that there was no 21 need for the asbestos-containing gloves and use 22 that it was meant for. 23 Q. Well, was it also based for the 24 potential for exposure? 25 A. It was potential for exposure. 94 1 Q. Now, did AT&T ever mandate that all 2 of the asbestos-containing gloves that are 3 already in use, that were used be removed? 4 A. I believe that was part of the 5 letter. 6 Q. And when was that? 7 A. I would imagine sometime around 8 1980 in the '75 to '84 time frame. 9 Q. And what did the letter say to your 10 recollection? 11 A. Remove the asbestos-containing 12 gloves from central offices. 13 Q. So that directive came from AT&T to 14 the Bell Operating Companies? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. So it was actually AT&T who had the 17 ultimate say as to what products were used or 18 not used? 19 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 20 A. False. 21 Q. Well, did the Bell Operating 22 Companies have the ability at that point to 23 say, hey we're not going to listen? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Did they do that to your 95 1 knowledge? 2 A. Not to my knowledge. 3 Q. What was the nature of the 4 directive? Why did AT&T express that? Why did 5 AT&T have the ability to provide such a 6 directive if it was a separate company from the 7 Bell Operating Company? 8 A. I can't argue for the management 9 but because AT&T was the majority shareholder 10 in most of the Bell Operating Systems that gave 11 them of the authority. 12 Q. Okay. Were the workers who had 13 been using asbestos-containing gloves in the 14 past advised at that point that they were 15 potentially exposed to asbestos by using the 16 gloves? 17 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 18 A. I couldn't state how they were 19 warned or what they were told. 20 Q. Who would know that? 21 A. The supervisors of the workers who 22 removed them. 23 Q. Did AT&T ever direct, to your 24 knowledge, that the workers be told that they 25 had used asbestos-containing gloves that 96 1 created potential exposure in the past? 2 A. Would you rephrase. 3 Q. That was a bad question. Do you 4 know whether or AT&T directed that the 5 employees in the Operating Companies be advised 6 that they had previously had the potential for 7 asbestos exposure by using asbestos-containing 8 gloves? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know what program AT&T 11 directed to make sure that all of the asbestos- 12 containing gloves were taken out of circulation 13 in the Bell Operating Companies? 14 A. I do not know. 15 Q. Do you know whether such a program 16 was ever instituted? 17 A. I do not know. 18 Q. Do you know whether Bell -- scratch 19 that. Do you know whether AT&T ever 20 recommended that people who have worked with 21 asbestos-containing gloves have annual physical 22 examinations? 23 A. To my knowledge they were not. 24 That was not recommended. 25 Q. Do you know if Bell Labs ever made 97 1 a recommendation that people who were working 2 with asbestos-containing gloves in the past get 3 annual physical exams? 4 A. I do not know of any 5 recommendation. 6 Q. Are you familiar with a product 7 known as an asbestos wiping cloth? 8 A. I am. 9 Q. What is an asbestos wiping cloth? 10 A. As I remember it is a square cloth 11 perhaps four or six inches square, perhaps half 12 an inch thick that's used in lead soldering 13 operations. 14 Q. And during what period of time was 15 that used by employees in the Bell Operating 16 System, do you know? 17 A. I imagine well before 1975, but by 18 the time I started in 1975, very little lead 19 was done. And so it was difficult for us to 20 observe that operation. 21 Q. Do you understand that the use of a 22 wiping cloth was to remove or mold solder 23 around? 24 A. That was one of the uses perhaps 25 the most minor use. 98 1 Q. What was the major use? 2 A. The major use as I was taught was, 3 basically, to be able to catch the lead solder 4 as it came off the wipe and use it, hold the -- 5 provide heat for the bottom part of the wipe 6 when it was being done. And, basically, to 7 wipe the solder into the joint and to smooth it 8 off. 9 Q. Was that product used in the 10 manholes? 11 A. It was. 12 Q. Was it used in the poles? 13 A. Perhaps. I didn't see that. 14 Q. Would you agree with me that given 15 enough time and use that the cloth would fray 16 over time? 17 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 18 A. All the cloths that I saw were very 19 much unfrayed, and they appeared to be quite 20 substantial. 21 Q. Did you ever observed it being 22 used? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. When? 25 A. Well, I actually used one myself. 99 1 I observed it being used in training classes. 2 I observed it being used in the field. 3 Q. So as part of your training in 1975 4 you were still handling asbestos wiping cloths? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Did you ever test for the release 7 of asbestos fiber from an asbestos wiping 8 cloth? 9 A. I don't recall that I ever did. 10 Q. Did anyone at Bell Laboratories 11 ever test for the release of asbestos fibers 12 from asbestos wiping cloths? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Were employees of the Bell 15 Operating Companies -- scratch that. Where did 16 those asbestos wiping cloths, do you know where 17 they came from? 18 A. I do not. 19 Q. Do you know whether they were 20 distributed through Western Electric? 21 A. I do not. 22 Q. Who would know that, do you know? 23 A. Possibly they're KS specifications 24 for the -- most of part products that came from 25 Western Electric and so there might be some 100 1 information on the KS information. 2 Q. What is a KS specification? 3 A. I don't exactly know what the word 4 KS stands for. It was specifications for 5 products that were provided for Western 6 Electric. 7 Q. Okay. And what would be like 8 included in a typical specification? 9 A. What the material, what materials 10 to make it off, how you would test it to be 11 sure it performed its function, possibly 12 suppliers and ultimate suppliers of that 13 particular product. 14 Q. And was that specification 15 available for most of the products that were 16 used by Bell Operating Companies' employees on 17 the field? 18 A. Products that came from Western 19 Electric, yes. 20 Q. Would you agree with me that the 21 use of an asbestos wiping cloth had the 22 potential for asbestos exposure? 23 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 24 A. I would agree that it has the 25 potential for asbestos exposure but not likely 101 1 above the occupational exposure level. 2 Q. But you never tested to find that 3 out? 4 A. I, personally, never did. 5 Q. Did anybody at Bell Labs ever 6 tested to determine whether using asbestos 7 wiping cloths would create exposures above the 8 occupational limits? 9 A. I do not remember. 10 Q. Was a recommendation ever made by 11 the Bell Laboratories that employees using 12 asbestos-containing wiping cloths had the 13 potential for asbestos? 14 A. Let me specify that I don't know 15 what the wiping cloths were made off so they 16 may or may not have been made of asbestos. I 17 don't know that there was any recommendation 18 for -- I'm sorry, what was it? What 19 recommendation were you asking about? 20 Q. Well, let me ask you. You are 21 aware that at some point in time the wiping 22 cloths that were being used for soldering 23 operations contained asbestos, true? 24 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 25 A. False. 102 1 Q. You don't know that? 2 A. I don't know that. 3 Q. So then, how do you know whether 4 they would release asbestos or not? 5 A. If they didn't have asbestos, 6 didn't contain asbestos they would not release 7 it. 8 Q. So you just were aware that wiping 9 cloths were being used in conjunction with the 10 soldering operation? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. But you don't know what they 13 contained? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Did you ever hear that wiping 16 cloths contained asbestos that were used at the 17 Bell Operating Companies? 18 A. I do not remember ever hearing 19 that. 20 Q. All right. So before today, that 21 has never arisen? 22 A. I'm sorry, what? Please -- 23 Q. The issue as to whether the wiping 24 cloths that were used in the soldering 25 operations whether that contained asbestos, 103 1 today's the first time that issue ever came up 2 to you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When is that issue first addressed 5 to you? 6 A. Possibly several years ago in 7 testimony or deposition for testimony. 8 Q. So when you were working -- let me 9 ask the question this way? When you were 10 working at Bell Laboratories or its successor, 11 the subject of whether the wiping cloths that 12 were used by operating employees or soldering 13 operations containing asbestos never came up? 14 A. I do not recall ever evaluating 15 wiping cloths for asbestos-containing 16 materials. 17 Q. So if the wiping cloths contained 18 asbestos, nobody ever told you? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Are you aware of any testing 21 whatsoever to determine whether the wiping 22 cloths contained asbestos? 23 A. I am not aware of any testing. 24 Q. Are you aware as to whether 25 asbestos was released from the use of wiping 104 1 cloths in soldering operations? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. As I've said before, no, I'm not 4 aware of any testing for asbestos release for 5 soldering operations. 6 Q. As an industrial hygienist charged 7 with protecting the health and safety of 8 workers, if those wiping cloths contained 9 asbestos, would you have liked to have known 10 that? 11 A. I definitely would have liked to 12 have known that, yes. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. 'Cause that was our job. That was 15 our task to find out employees exposures to 16 hazardous materials. 17 Q. And unless somebody told you it had 18 asbestos, there's nothing that you could do in 19 order to protect people who were working with 20 the product, correct? 21 A. Incorrect. 22 Q. What could you do? 23 A. I could have and we did review 24 specifications of the materials that people 25 were using. 105 1 Q. Did you review specifications for 2 wiping cloths? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. Did anybody in your group review 5 specifications for wiping cloths? 6 A. I am not aware of any. 7 Q. Are you aware as to whether any 8 workers were ever told that the wiping cloths 9 they were using contain asbestos? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 11 A. I am not aware of any. 12 Q. Do you know and understand what an 13 asbestos pillow is? 14 A. My understanding of an asbestos 15 pillow is something that's used to plug holes 16 between floors in a central office. 17 Q. Are they also known as asbestos 18 bags? 19 A. Possibly. 20 Q. And you're aware that at some point 21 in time -- well, scratch that. What was the 22 purpose of an asbestos pillow? 23 A. The purpose of an asbestos pillow 24 was to plug the opening in the floor between 25 the central offices cables went through as a 106 1 fire stopping material. 2 Q. Did you ever personally observed an 3 asbestos-containing pillow? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know from others in the 6 group or any kind of research what an asbestos- 7 containing pillow looked like? 8 A. I should sit back and say I've seen 9 pillows stuff in holes in Central Offices, 10 whether or not they contained asbestos or not, 11 I don't know. So I have seen pillows, whether 12 or not they were asbestos-containing pillows, I 13 don't know. 14 Q. Do you know, did you ever remove 15 any specifications for the pillows that were 16 used? 17 A. I, personally, did not review 18 specifications. 19 Q. Okay. Anybody in your group review 20 specifications? 21 A. I believe some people did. 22 Q. Were they Western Electric 23 specifications? 24 A. I imagine they were. 25 Q. Okay. Now, the pillows that you 107 1 stuffed in the holes in Central Offices, what 2 color were they? 3 A. As I recall they were either green 4 or blue. 5 MR. PLACITELLA: Why don't we take 6 five minutes or so. 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now off the 8 record. This is the end of Tape 2 of 9 today's deposition. 10 (Whereupon a brief recess is 11 taken.) 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is Tape 3 of 13 today's videotape deposition of Charles 14 Paul Lichtenwalner in the matter of Degnan 15 versus Lucent. Deposition is being held 16 at 25 DeForest Avenue, Summit, New Jersey, 17 July 25, 2008, video time is 12:12. We 18 are now on the record. 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 Q. Are you aware during what period of 21 time asbestos-containing pillows were used in 22 Operating Company Central Offices? 23 A. I don't know the dates. 24 Q. There was at some point in time a 25 recommendation made by you to discontinue the 108 1 use of asbestos-containing pillows? 2 A. Not by me personally. 3 Q. By whom? 4 A. I believe, again, it came from 5 someone at AT&T. 6 Q. So at some point in time AT&T 7 directed that asbestos-containing pillows no 8 longer be used? 9 A. Possible it was AT&T, possible it 10 was Western Electric. 11 Q. And was that after you started 12 working as an industrial hygienist in Bell 13 Laboratories Group? 14 A. I don't know the time frame for 15 that. 16 Q. Do you know whether the directive 17 ever indicated that all the asbestos-containing 18 pillows were already in placed should be 19 removed from the Central Offices? 20 A. It's my recollection that that 21 recommendation was not -- it was required to 22 remove the ones that were already in place. 23 Q. So there was no recall if you, for 24 lack of a better term, for the asbestos- 25 containing pillows that were already in place? 109 1 A. That's my understanding. 2 Q. And would you agree with me that 3 they're likely at the that point, if you take 4 into account all of the holes and all the 5 buildings, thousands of the asbestos- 6 containing pillows in place? 7 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 8 A. Given the buildings, it's likely 9 there were thousands of pillows. 10 Q. Now, the presence of asbestos- 11 containing pillows created the probability of 12 company employees being exposed to asbestos, 13 would you agree with that? 14 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection. 15 A. I would state that I don't believe 16 that that would create an exposure permissible 17 above the occupational exposure limits. 18 Q. Well, was testing ever done to 19 determine whether the handling of asbestos- 20 containing pillows generated the release of 21 asbestos fiber? 22 A. I did not do it, and I am not aware 23 of any testing done during the handling of 24 pillows. 25 Q. Now, are you distinguishing 110 1 handling from something else? 2 A. I am distinguishing it from having 3 the pillows in place. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. And I did numerous applications in 6 Operating Telephone Companies, Central Offices 7 where these pillows were used and did not find 8 high levels of asbestos. 9 Q. In other words, you just did a 10 sample around where the pillow was already in 11 place? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. But you never actually pulled the 14 pillow out to see if that process would release 15 asbestos fiber? 16 A. I, personally, never did that. 17 Q. Did anybody else? 18 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 19 Q. Why not? 20 MR. MCGOWAN: Form, two questions 21 prior. I do apologize. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. Again, I don't remember. 24 Q. Were you aware that those pillows 25 had the potential for being moved when work had 111 1 to be done on cables running through the holes 2 that they were stuffed then, correct? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. So the only testing that was ever 6 done was taking the test to see if the pillows 7 that were already there were releasing any 8 fiber as they sat there? 9 MR. HORNBY: Objection. That's not 10 the witness's testimony. 11 A. I'm sorry. I don't remember 12 whether testing was done during movement of the 13 pillows. 14 Q. Well, you didn't do it, did you? 15 A. I did not do it. 16 Q. And as you sit here today, are you 17 aware of any? 18 A. I am not aware on any testing that 19 was done? 20 Q. Are you aware of any testing what 21 would happen if somebody took the pillow in 22 their hand and manipulated it? 23 A. I am not aware of any testing. 24 Q. Are you aware what would happen 25 when somebody had to pulled the pillow out? 112 1 A. I am not aware of testing when the 2 pillow was pulled out. 3 Q. What happens with those pillows, am 4 I correct, is they actually get shoved in 5 tightly into a hole to stop the cables from 6 moving around? 7 A. You could not say. I never saw 8 pillows being used. 9 Q. Did you ever run a test to 10 determine whether pushing the pillows into a 11 hole would release asbestos fibers? 12 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. The witness 13 has testified he does not know if it had 14 asbestos. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: No, that's not 16 what he said. 17 A. As I said before, I do not, I did 18 do any testing in the use of the pillows. 19 Q. Okay. Do you remember what the 20 directive from AT&T said when it was mandated 21 that you could no longer use asbestos-containing 22 pillows. 23 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 24 A. I don't recall that there was a 25 directive about no longer using asbestos- 113 1 containing pillows. It's possible it was just 2 changed so that asbestos be no longer used in 3 the pillows. 4 Q. Do you know whether the people who 5 would have either removed or installed those 6 pillows were ever warned that the pillows 7 contained asbestos? 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 9 A. I have a very vague recollection of 10 information being disseminated that some of the 11 pillows contained asbestos and that employees 12 were to be informed that they were not to 13 manipulate them anymore than was necessary. 14 And if they knew that they had asbestos- 15 containing pillows, to replace them when they 16 needed to remove the pillows from the floors. 17 Q. Why would they not -- 18 A. That's a very vague recollection 19 and you know I wouldn't want to since I'm under 20 oath here, I don't remember exactly the 21 recommendation requirement letter that went 22 out. I do remember vaguely something to that 23 effect went out. 24 Q. Would that be contained in the 25 industrial hygiene files? 114 1 A. Likely it would not. 2 Q. Where would that kind of records be 3 stored? 4 A. If there are any locations where 5 people maintain the recommendation letters, 6 general letters, and so forth from AT&T, that 7 would likely be the source of that. 8 Q. Now, you say be careful not to move 9 or manipulate it, why should you be careful not 10 to move or manipulate it? 11 A. Whenever you move or manipulate 12 asbestos-containing materials there's potential 13 for release of asbestos fibers in the air. 14 Q. Do you know whether cable splicers 15 who had to run their cables or remove those 16 bags were ever warned that they were 17 potentially exposed to asbestos in doing that 18 operation? 19 A. I am not aware at any time that 20 they were warned, but I would not have been 21 privy to that, those training or warnings. 22 Q. Do you know whether AT&T ever 23 recommended that they be warned? 24 A. I am not aware of any 25 recommendation to that effect. 115 1 Q. Do you know whether the employees 2 in the Operating Companies were ever told that 3 they were -- the pillows they used in the past 4 contained asbestos? 5 A. I am not aware of that. 6 Q. Do you know whether the employees 7 who would have encountered asbestos-containing 8 pillows as part of their job were informed to 9 have annual medical examinations? 10 A. I am not aware of that. 11 Q. A principle of industrial hygiene 12 recognized for decades would have dictated that 13 the air be tested for people who installed or 14 removed pillows known to contain asbestos, 15 true? 16 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 17 A. False. Possibly one could look at 18 the coverings for the pillows and determine 19 whether or not it was likely to release 20 asbestos. It was my understanding that the 21 coverings for the pillows did not contain 22 asbestos. Again, as I said, I cannot, I am 23 familiar with the pillows only indirectly from 24 reports or talking with other industrial 25 hygienist. 116 1 Q. Well, there's no allegation that 2 the outside of the pillow itself was asbestos? 3 Is there any information to that effect? 4 A. There's no information one way or 5 other. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. But it's my understanding that they 8 were not asbestos on the outside. 9 Q. Now, you went to this course at the 10 McCrone Institute? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And there you learned how to test 13 to see if something on the surface of an object 14 contained asbestos? 15 A. I learned how to test if materials 16 contained asbestos, surface interior 17 everywhere. 18 Q. So you could have taken those bags 19 that were thought to contain asbestos and look 20 at the outside using the techniques that you 21 were taught to determine if that, in fact, was 22 the case that there was asbestos on the 23 outside, true? 24 A. That's true, I could have done 25 that. 117 1 Q. But it wasn't done? 2 A. I did not do it. 3 Q. And nobody else at Bell Labs did? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 5 A. I don't remember if -- 6 Q. And AT&T never directed that it be 7 done? 8 A. They never directed me to do that. 9 Q. Now, in a prior deposition you were 10 asked the following question and you gave the 11 following answer. It says, "My point is not as 12 though the Western Electric Company's employees 13 were actually going to be exposed to the 14 asbestos-containing bags and not the Operating 15 Telephone Company employees or vice versa. 16 Both the employees of Western Electric as well 17 as, for example, Pacific Bell, had a 18 probability of being exposed to asbestos as a 19 result of the presence of these 20 asbestos-containing bags in the workplace, 21 right?" 22 And your answer was, "My 23 understanding that there was a probability for 24 both of them to be exposed." Do you recall that 25 testimony? 118 1 A. I do not. 2 Q. All right. Do you have -- 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Where is that from? 4 MR. PLACITELLA: Page 181 of the 5 deposition are Mr. Lichtenwalner, September 6 16, 2003, in the Graham case. 7 Q. Would you agree that there was a 8 probability that Operating Companies' employees 9 would be exposed if you testified under oath in 10 this case? 11 MR. MCGOWAN: I'm going to object 12 to the form in terms of any prior or 13 preceding language in testimony that may 14 differ from your question. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: That's fine. 16 A. I would agree that there is a 17 probability. The probability may be small. 18 Q. Okay. You understand what a 19 transite cable hole cover is? 20 A. I understand what a transite cover 21 is. Are you referring to transite covers used 22 in Central Offices? 23 Q. Correct. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Materials used in Bell Operating 119 1 Companies contain transite, would you agree 2 with that? 3 A. Transite was used at Bell Operating 4 Companies, yes. 5 Q. Under what specification? Was that 6 a Western Electric specification? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Okay. Do you believe it was more 9 likely than not a Western Electric 10 specification? 11 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 12 A. I couldn't say for that particular 13 product for that particular use of that 14 product. 15 Q. Would you agree that transite was a 16 potential problem to Operating Telephone 17 Company employees? 18 A. I would disagree with that. 19 Q. In your deposition that I just told 20 your counsel about on page 147 you were asked 21 the following question and you gave the 22 following answers. 23 "You had indicated earlier that 24 there were potential materials containing 25 transite that might pose a potential 120 1 problem to the Operating Telephone Company 2 employees. 3 "ANSWER: Yes. 4 "QUESTION: What kinds of material 5 contained transite? Materials made of 6 transite." 7 Does that refresh your recollection 8 as to whether transite was a potential problem 9 for the Operating Telephone Company employees? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 11 A. Perhaps I misspoke. As transite 12 asbestos in place, I do not believe poses a 13 potential exposure hazard to Operating 14 Telephone Company employees. Disturbing 15 transite materials might pose a potential 16 problem. 17 Q. Transite was -- let's just make 18 sure we're talking about the same thing. The 19 transite covers, they were used in Central 20 Offices, correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Okay. And they would actually 23 cover the holes where the asbestos pillows were 24 stuffed into, correct? 25 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 121 1 A. Possibly. Possibly they would be 2 used in lieu of the asbestos pillows. 3 Q. Okay. Now, give me a description 4 of the transite cable hole covers that you're 5 thinking of? 6 A. The ones that I'm thinking of would 7 be a transite board, perhaps a half an inch 8 thick, basically, made long and wide enough to 9 cover generally a slot if it was between the 10 board in the Central Office. 11 Q. So they'd be about, maybe 12 three-quarters of a foot long? 13 A. Three-quarters of a foot? 14 Q. How long would they be typically? 15 A. It depends. It would need to be 16 long enough to cover the width of the slot and 17 they were various size slots. The largest that 18 I saw was probably 4 foot long and perhaps a 19 foot wide. 20 Q. About three-quarters of an inch 21 thick? 22 A. I would I think something like 23 that, yes. 24 Q. Now, did you ever do any testing of 25 the transite covers in place in the Central 122 1 Office to see if they were releasing asbestos 2 fibers? 3 A. In the sense that we tested 4 asbestos in Central Offices, yes, we did that 5 testing. 6 Q. So you specifically tested to see 7 whether the transite cover in place was 8 releasing asbestos? 9 A. No. We specifically tested to see 10 if there was asbestos in Central Offices. 11 Q. Okay. Did you ever tested to 12 determine whether the moving of the transite -- 13 this is made of cement, right? 14 A. I believe it is. 15 Q. And how did you, how heavy are 16 these things typically? 17 A. They weigh as much as a piece of 18 cement. That thickness and area of volume. 19 Q. Well, when you have to move them, 20 do people typically pick them up or do they 21 slide them across the floor or what? 22 A. Again, I never saw them being 23 moved, but it would be very easy to pick them 24 up. It weighed even the largest ones would be 25 a few pounds. 123 1 Q. And when those, did you ever do any 2 testing to determine when you pick up the 3 covers and put them back down, whether that 4 process release is asbestos fibers? 5 A. I never did any testing like that. 6 Q. Did anybody else do that kind of 7 testing? 8 A. I don't recall it being done in 9 Central offices. 10 Q. Was it done elsewhere? 11 A. I had some friends who did some 12 testing working with asbestos in a laboratory 13 setting. 14 Q. And where was that? 15 A. In Holmdel, New Jersey. 16 Q. And what kind of test did they run? 17 A. Basically, were doing testing to 18 determine what happens when you drill transite 19 board to determine what the potential exposures 20 were. 21 Q. And what were the results of those 22 tests? 23 A. I don't know. It's in the 24 literature of the Industrial Hygiene 25 Association. 124 1 Q. Under what circumstances -- you 2 mean those tests were performed by Bell? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Why would an Operating Company 5 employee have to drill, cut, saw transite in 6 the course of their work? 7 A. This was done for work at the Bell 8 Laboratories so it was to determine exposure at 9 Bell Laboratories personnel. 10 Q. In the Laboratories themselves? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. Okay. But what about testing done 13 in the field for people who were moving around 14 these transite covers? 15 A. I am not aware of any. 16 Q. So just so we're clear, no testing 17 was ever done to determine whether there was a 18 release of asbestos fiber when handling, 19 replacing, or moving transite of hole covers? 20 MR. HORNBY: Objection, it 21 misstates his testimony. 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 23 A. No testing was ever done, 24 specifically, to determine exposure, moving or 25 handling asbestos covers. However, exposure 125 1 monitoring was done in Central Offices -- 2 Q. Right. 3 A. -- and some of that may have been 4 the handling or removal of transite covers at 5 that time. 6 Q. So you believe that because the 7 exposure levels were low generally in the 8 Central Offices that that somehow was an 9 indication that people who might be handling 10 the hole covers were not at risk for exposure? 11 Would that be the extrapolation you made? 12 A. I didn't make an extrapolation like 13 that. My statement would be that we measured 14 concentrations in Central Offices, handling of 15 transite may have been going on at the time; 16 therefore, there may have been some exposures 17 that measure that type of operation. 18 Q. Well, how close to this operation 19 of moving the transite were your testing done? 20 A. It could be any distance from one 21 foot to the maximum dimension of a Central 22 Office. 23 Q. So you have no idea whether the 24 testing that you did in Central Offices had any 25 bearing whatsoever on whether asbestos was 126 1 released during the moving of transite cable 2 hole covers? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 4 A. I have no direct knowledge of 5 asbestos exposure when those things were 6 moved. 7 Q. 'Cause no one ever looked? 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 9 A. Not that I recall. 10 Q. Okay. Did anyone -- by the way, 11 the guys like the cable splicers who had to run 12 cable through those holes, would they have to 13 move those covers as part of their jobs? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. People working with transite cable 16 hole covers included workers running new cables 17 from one floor to the next; would you agree 18 with that? 19 A. That's a possibility. 20 Q. Do you remember testifying about 21 that? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. Would you quarrel with that? 24 A. No, I would not. 25 Q. Now, did a directive ever come from 127 1 AT&T that transite cable hole covers never 2 stopped being used in the Central Offices? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Did a directive ever come from AT&T 5 indicating that people who moved those covers 6 should be warned that they contained asbestos? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Was there ever a recall of cable 9 hole covers in Central Offices that were made 10 from transite? 11 A. Not to my knowledge. 12 Q. Just to round out the whole cable 13 issue, are you familiar with a product known as 14 Quick Plug Cement? 15 A. I am not. 16 Q. Do you know whether cement was used 17 as part of the process of sealing the area 18 where the cable hole cover was used? 19 A. I am not aware of that. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you want to 22 stop now for a half hour? Is that a good 23 time for you? 24 (Whereupon a brief luncheon 25 recess is taken.) 128 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O O N. 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 1:22. We 3 are on the record. 4 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 5 Q. Good afternoon. No disrespect but 6 I have to ask you this question. Did you 7 discuss the subject of your testimony at all at 8 lunchtime? 9 A. Yes, not the subject. The form of 10 testimony. 11 Q. What does that mean? 12 A. Discussed how I was performing. 13 Q. And what were you told? 14 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: Any discussion you 16 had while he's still under oath is not 17 privilege. 18 Q. What was it that you discussed? 19 A. What I had said, how I had said it, 20 sorry. 21 Q. What does that mean? 22 A. How I answered the questions. 23 Q. Well, were you told to do anything 24 differently? 25 A. No, I was not. 129 1 Q. What was the sum and substance of 2 your discussion? 3 A. Basically, that I was answering the 4 questions and continue to do so. 5 Q. Okay. Am I correct that transite 6 conduits were used to hold cables for 7 underground telephone communications? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And what would happen is those 10 transite conduits would connect one manhole to 11 another; is that fair? 12 A. That's true. 13 Q. So what would happen is there would 14 be a manhole in Point A, another one in Point 15 B, and the conduit would be laid underground, 16 correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Okay. And the cable would actually 19 be pulled through that conduit? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Okay. And during what period of 22 time, if you know, was transite conduit used 23 for that purpose in the Bell Operating 24 Companies? 25 A. I don't know the time frame. 130 1 Q. Was there ever a time when you were 2 working for Bell Labs or any of its successors 3 where the transite cement conduit was 4 discontinued? 5 A. I am not aware of it being 6 discontinued. 7 Q. So no time, to your knowledge, was 8 there ever a directive that transite cement 9 conduit should no longer be used for holding 10 telecommunications cable underground? 11 A. Not to my knowledge. 12 Q. Okay. Now, what would be the 13 reason for pulling cable through a conduit? 14 A. To put the cable inside the 15 conduit. The conduits were normally placed on 16 the ground empty. 17 Q. Did you ever see, physically, 18 observe transite conduit? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to the form. 20 A. I've been inside manholes and 21 perhaps was present, but I don't recall if I 22 was ever present when they were laying the 23 conduit. All I would have seen was the conduit 24 where, actually the face of the manhole. 25 Q. Did you ever observe that, in any 131 1 New Jersey Bell property? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. I was in numerous manholes in New 4 Jersey Bell properties. 5 Q. Did you physically witness, ever 6 physically witness the pulling of the cable 7 through transite conduit in New Jersey Bell 8 properties? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. Now, is that something that would 11 be done in the presence of a cable splicer? 12 A. It would not. 13 Q. Are you aware of cable splicers 14 ever doing that? 15 A. I am not aware of cable splicers 16 pulling cable. 17 Q. Can you say with certainty that 18 that did not happen? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 A. There were a million people in the 21 Bell System. I cannot say with certainty what 22 did or did not take place. 23 Q. Now, the pulling of cable through 24 conduit resulted in the release that 25 contaminated the ambient air, the release of 132 1 asbestos, that contaminated the ambient air in 2 manholes, true? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 4 A. The potential was there, yes. 5 Q. In fact, did you ever do any 6 measurements to determine if that, in fact, 7 happened? 8 A. I believe I did some measurements. 9 Q. And did you do those measurements 10 yourself? 11 A. I believe I did. 12 Q. And what were the results of your 13 measurements? 14 A. I do not recall. 15 Q. Do you recall that your 16 measurements showed elevated levels of asbestos 17 fibers in the manholes where cable was pulled 18 through the transite conduit? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 A. I do not recall. 21 Q. The concern you had, you don't 22 remember the results one way or the other? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Did you generate reports from doing 25 that testing? 133 1 A. If I made measurements, I generate 2 a report, reports. 3 Q. And that generated the file that's 4 in some CD-ROM that you left behind? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Now, your concern was that in 7 pulling the cables that there was concern, you 8 had concern about pulling cables through 9 transite conduit, did you not? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And what you found was that the 13 pulling of the cable through the transite 14 conduit typically contaminated the manhole with 15 asbestos, true? 16 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 17 A. I don't recall what the results 18 were. 19 Q. I want to see if I can refresh your 20 recollection. In your deposition of September 21 16, 2003, in the Graham case, you were asked 22 the following question, and giving the 23 following answers. Page 154 starting on the 24 bottom, line 24. 25 "You also indicated there was 134 1 exposure to asbestos from working with 2 transite conduit. How would the exposure 3 take place in that circumstances? 4 "ANSWER: The concern that we had 5 is when they were pulling out cables from 6 transite conduits so it would be the 7 cables being pulled through the conduit. 8 "QUESTION: The cables being pulled 9 through the conduit would result in the 10 release of asbestos that contaminated the 11 ambient air? 12 "ANSWER: Typically, it contaminated 13 the manhole. 14 "QUESTION: The manhole area? 15 "ANSWER: Right." 16 Q. Do you recall giving that 17 testimony? 18 A. I recall giving the testimony. I 19 don't recall the specific details of my 20 responses. 21 Q. You want a retract that testimony 22 here today? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. So your testing showed that 25 the pulling of cable through transite conduit 135 1 typically contaminated manholes with asbestos, 2 true? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. 4 A. As I said, I don't remember the 5 results of that testing. 6 MR. MCGOWAN: Just for 7 clarification, I don't think the testimony 8 read to him had the word "testing" in it. 9 I might have misheard. 10 Q. It said, all right, just so we're 11 clear, "The cables being pulled through the 12 conduit would result in the release of asbestos 13 that contaminated the ambient air. 14 "ANSWER: Typically it contaminated 15 the manhole. 16 "QUESTION: The manhole area? 17 "ANSWER: Right." 18 Can you tell me what was the basis 19 for that statement, that it typically 20 contaminated the manhole. 21 A. The basis for that statement would 22 be that when you're creating, pulling cable 23 through material you have the possibility of 24 generating dust. 25 Q. Now, cable splicers worked in 136 1 manholes. You agree with that? 2 A. I agree with that. 3 Q. Okay. Would you agree that once 4 the manhole was contaminated, it remained 5 contaminated unless it was properly abated? 6 A. I could see possibilities that it 7 did not remain contaminated. 8 Q. And what would those possibilities 9 be? 10 A. The possibilities are that before 11 people entered manholes, they had to ventilate 12 manholes. That ventilation created a lot of 13 air that would have been removed a lot of the 14 dust that was in the manhole. 15 Q. But what happened to the people 16 that were in the manhole pulling the cable 17 through? 18 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 19 A. People were not standing in the 20 manhole when the cable was being pulled 21 through. That was forbidden. 22 Q. By whom? 23 A. By Bell System practices. 24 Q. Is that written down somewhere? 25 A. Yes. 137 1 Q. Why was it forbidden? 2 A. As a safety hazard in case 3 something broke. 4 Q. What do you mean as a safety hazard 5 if something broke? 6 A. When you're pulling cable there's 7 large forces involved to pull that cable 8 through the manhole large distances. There is 9 typically large wheels that are used to prevent 10 bending the cable. So there's large forces 11 involved and there could be, you know, some 12 people were not allowed to be in the manhole 13 while the cable was being pulled. 14 Q. What ventilation was put in the 15 manhole that would remove the air in the 16 manhole? 17 A. Ventilation was required before 18 entering any manhole. 19 Q. What does that mean by ventilation? 20 A. It means that there was manhole 21 ventilators that provided air into manholes 22 basically, purged the air and provide fresh 23 airs into manholes while people were working in 24 them. 25 Q. And the ventilation would also have 138 1 the effect of stirring up whatever dust had 2 settled in the manhole, true? 3 A. That's true. 4 Q. And how long would a manhole have 5 to be ventilated before somebody would have to 6 go in there? 7 A. I don't recall the exact time, but 8 it depends on the size of the manhole. Most 9 manholes I believe it's a minimum of five 10 minutes. It required at least seven air 11 changes. 12 Q. And did you ever do any testing to 13 see after the manhole was ventilated whether 14 asbestos was removed from the manhole that was 15 contaminated? 16 A. I do not recall doing any testing. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. I don't see what the purpose would 19 be. 20 Q. Well, you knew that pulling the 21 transite cable through, pulling the cable 22 through the transite typically contaminated the 23 manhole, true? 24 A. True. 25 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 139 1 Q. You know that people would then go 2 into the manhole, true? 3 A. True. 4 Q. But you never determined to see 5 whether those people were going to be exposed 6 once they went into the manhole? 7 A. Let me restate. I may have done 8 some testing for asbestos in manholes while 9 people were working, but I don't recall any 10 specific times that I did that. 11 Q. Well, as you sit here today, you 12 cannot recall ever testing to determine whether 13 people were exposed to asbestos that you say 14 were typically contaminated inside of 15 manholes? 16 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 17 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 18 A. I don't recall I ever said 19 typically contaminated. 20 Q. So you did not testify, "The cables 21 being pulled through the conduit would result 22 in the release of asbestos that contaminated 23 the ambient air; your answer, typically, it 24 contaminated the manhole." 25 You didn't say that under oath 140 1 under penalty of perjury, sir? 2 A. Perhaps I did. 3 Q. Was it the truth under penalty of 4 perjury, sir? 5 MR. MCGOWAN: Form, argumentative. 6 A. Was what -- 7 Q. That asbestos typically 8 contaminated the manhole through -- by the 9 pulling of the cable through the transite 10 conduit? 11 A. I'd like you to repeat the question 12 that was asked. I had some particular concerns 13 about the way that question was asked prior to 14 my answer. 15 Q. Sir, did you give the answer to the 16 following question? "The cables being pulled 17 through the conduit would result in the release 18 of asbestos that contaminated the ambient air." 19 Your answer, "Typically it contaminated the 20 manhole." 21 Do you remember that testimony? 22 A. I remember the testimony. 23 Q. Okay. What tests did you run to 24 determine whether people who went into that 25 manhole after the cable was pulled through were 141 1 not at risk for asbestos exposure? 2 A. That test would have been done 3 while the cable, after the cable had been 4 pulled through the manhole. At that point I 5 would have been monitoring the linemen who were 6 doing that cable pulling. 7 I thought, sorry, I assumed that 8 your question prior to this was whether or not 9 I did any testing of cable splicers working in 10 manholes after cables had been pulled. And I 11 don't recall, but it's possible that there was 12 testing done for asbestos in cable splicers. 13 Q. But you have no information, as you 14 sit here today, that that testing was done? 15 A. I do not recall any of that 16 testing. 17 Q. Did you ever receive a directive 18 from AT&T to test the manholes to see how long 19 they remained contaminated? 20 A. No, I did not. 21 Q. Did you ever receive a directive 22 from the Occupational Health Working Group to 23 test the manhole to see how long they remained 24 contaminated? 25 A. I did not. 142 1 Q. As someone whose dedicated his life 2 to protecting his life to the health and safety 3 of workers, why didn't you on your own run 4 tests to determine how long the manhole 5 remained contaminated with asbestos after it 6 was pulled through? 7 MR. MCGOWAN: Form, argumentative. 8 A. How long? That's a difficult 9 series of questions to answer given the 10 variable nature of manholes and exposures and 11 water conditions and things like that. That 12 would not be an easy study to determine how 13 long contamination existed in manholes. 14 Q. Well, did you do it, say, two hours 15 after the cable was pulled? 16 A. As I said before, I did testing 17 while cable was being pulled. I don't recall 18 the results, the specific results of that 19 test. I also know that we did sampling in 20 manholes while cable splicers were working. I 21 don't recall if asbestos measurements were 22 taken as part of that. 23 Q. What trades would enter the 24 manholes on behalf of Bell Operating Companies 25 after the cable was pulled through the transite 143 1 conduit? 2 A. Cable splicers. 3 Q. That's it? 4 A. Linemen would also be in there, 5 possibly some people for doing testing, but 6 most of it would be cable splicers and 7 linemen. 8 Q. So you only have two trades 9 possibly that you had to test for? 10 A. Right. That's correct. 11 Q. So there are only two sets of 12 people that needed your attention for 13 protection in the manholes after the cable was 14 pulled through the transite conduit, correct? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. But as you sit here today, you 18 can't point to any testing that you ever did to 19 see if those people were at the risk? 20 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 21 A. I don't have access to my records. 22 We're talking about things that occurred 35 23 years ago. I don't recall all the measurements 24 that I took. 25 Q. Well, if you had to get those 144 1 records to provide complete and accurate 2 testimony, who would you ask and what would you 3 do? 4 A. Who would I ask? Basically, I 5 would go to the operating telephone companies 6 and ask if any of them still retain the records 7 that were given to them as a result of the 8 divestiture. Another possibility would be Bell 9 Laboratories to see if any of the records still 10 exist there, and then I don't know. 11 Q. Okay. Was anybody else involved in 12 the testing that found contamination, asbestos 13 contamination in manholes other than yourself? 14 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who? 17 A. There were a number of people who 18 worked in the Bell System Services Group and we 19 all did testing. 20 Q. Give me some names? 21 A. Francis Foster, Gary Kenny, Roy 22 Deichman, Patty Paine. Those are the ones 23 that immediately come to mind. 24 Q. Now, did you ever test any other 25 asbestos-containing product on behalf of Bell 145 1 Labs where your conclusion was that that 2 product contaminated the work environment with 3 asbestos? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 5 A. Not that I can recall. 6 Q. So the only test you ever can 7 recall doing where you find contamination of 8 the work environment was on the transite 9 conduit in the manholes, correct? 10 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 11 A. Incorrect. I just remember there 12 was sprayed asbestos insulation on buildings. 13 Let's see those are, right. 14 Q. So just those two? 15 A. I object to the use of the word 16 contamination. I would prefer to hear it as -- 17 Q. I'm sorry, that was your word, 18 contaminated the manhole, right, not mind, 19 correct? 20 A. All right. 21 Q. You object to your own words, sir? 22 A. I would have preferred to have said 23 potential contamination. 24 Q. It's not funny, right, sir? 25 Contamination with asbestos in a working 146 1 environment, it's not funny, is it? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection, 3 argumentative. 4 Q. It's not something to laugh about, 5 is it? 6 A. It is not. 7 Q. Especially for my client who went 8 down in those manholes. It's not funny for 9 him, is it? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection, 11 argumentative. 12 Q. Tell me what you did to protect my 13 client, Mr. Degnan, who climbed down in those 14 manholes for New Jersey Bell after the cable 15 was pulled through the transite conduit? 16 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 17 A. We evaluated work practices, the 18 people that were inside manholes to determine 19 their hazards and potential exposures. 20 Q. And what did you find? 21 A. As I said, we found, as I recall, 22 little to no exposures above the occupational 23 exposure limits. 24 Q. Do you have those tests? Where did 25 you come up with that? 147 1 MR. HORNBY: Objection to form. 2 Q. You tested in the manholes after 3 you said they were contaminated and found 4 little exposures above the occupational limits 5 or below? 6 A. We're talking about asbestos. I 7 don't recall the ones for asbestos, but I 8 certainly made other measurements inside 9 manholes for people who where working. 10 Q. I am focusing on asbestos here. My 11 client died from asbestos. You understand 12 that? 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection, 14 argumentative. 15 A. That's my understanding. 16 Q. You understand my client, Mr. 17 Degnan, was a cable splicer who worked at New 18 Jersey Bell, and he died from mesothelioma. 19 You understand that? 20 A. That's what I've been told. 21 Q. So that's what I want to talk 22 about. What readings did you do to determine, 23 after you found out that manholes were 24 contaminated from pulling cable through 25 transite conduit, what did you to do protect 148 1 people like Mr. Degnan from asbestos exposure 2 in those manholes? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 4 A. I don't recall that I measured 5 exposures above the permissible exposure limit. 6 Q. Well, did you measure any exposures 7 for asbestos? 8 A. When you say did I measure any 9 exposures, you mean did I take any exposure 10 measurements or did I take, did I get any 11 measurements that determined asbestos? 12 Q. Did you take any measurements to 13 determine whether there was asbestos fibers in 14 the work environment in manholes after the 15 cable was pulled through the transite conduit? 16 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. Did you ever report back to the 19 Occupational Health Working Group that you 20 determined that manholes were contaminated with 21 asbestos as a result of the pulling with cable 22 through transite conduit? 23 MR. HORNBY: Objection to form. 24 A. I don't recall. 25 Q. Would there be any reason why you 149 1 would withhold that information from the 2 members of the Occupational Health Working 3 Group? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 5 A. I definitely would not withhold 6 that information. 7 Q. So after that information was 8 communicated, what, if anything, did the 9 Occupational Health Working Group do in 10 response to the report that manholes were 11 contaminated with asbestos as a result of 12 pulling cable through transite conduit? 13 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 14 A. I don't know what report was given 15 to the Occupational Health Working Group. 16 Q. Well, you think it was likely you 17 told them? 18 A. I think it's quite likely someone 19 told them, not necessarily myself. And then 20 what action was taken by them to make sure that 21 the people who would go into those manholes 22 after they were contaminated were not placed at 23 risk? 24 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 25 Asked and answered. 150 1 A. What was done was I believe special 2 efforts were taken to determine asbestos 3 exposures in pulling cables through manholes. 4 We were, specifically, charged in trying to 5 find out what the exposures were. 6 Q. Okay. And what did you find out? 7 A. Again, as I said, I don't know and 8 it wasn't just myself doing this work. It was 9 a team of us that did it. 10 Q. There were only two classes of 11 workers who went in those manholes after the 12 cable splicers after the cables were pulled, 13 right; linemen and splicers, right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. They wouldn't have been hard to 16 find and hard to warn, correct? 17 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 18 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 19 A. It was difficult to find people who 20 were pulling cable through manholes. 21 Q. Not my point. I'm saying after the 22 cable was pulled, you knew there were only two 23 classes of workers that were going into those 24 manholes; cable splicers and linemen, true? 25 A. Correct. 151 1 Q. So if you warned classes of workers 2 to protect themselves, you knew who they were 3 and where to find them, true? 4 A. That wasn't our job, to warn or to 5 find people. 6 Q. If AT&T wanted to warn the cable 7 splicers they knew who to warn and where to 8 find them, true? 9 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 10 A. True. 11 Q. And you told me at the beginning of 12 this deposition that AT&T had both the money 13 and the resources to do whatever warning was 14 necessary to protect the health and safety of 15 workers, true? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. Do you have any information, as you 18 sit here today, that AT&T used its money and 19 its resources to warn cable splicers who 20 entered the manholes that those manholes could 21 be contaminated with asbestos? 22 A. I have no information. 23 Q. Have you ever heard of a company 24 called Henkels & McCoy? 25 A. Yes. 152 1 Q. Who is Henkels & McCoy? 2 A. It's a company I believe provides 3 telecommunication services to Sprint. They 4 have an office near the bottom of the road 5 where I live. 6 Q. Do you know whether they ever 7 supplied the transite conduit that was used in 8 the New Jersey Bell Operating Companies? 9 MS. D'ANNUNZIO: Objection to form. 10 A. I do not. 11 MR. PLACITELLA: Was that a bad 12 question? 13 MS. D'ANNUNZIO: Yes. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: What was wrong 15 with it? 16 MS. D'ANNUNZIO: Can you just read 17 it back then I'll tell you what it is. 18 Going on, I'll remember it. 19 (Whereupon last question was read 20 back.) 21 MR. PLACITELLA: That was a bad 22 question? 23 MS. D'ANNUNZIO: Maybe not. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 25 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 153 1 Q. Do you have any knowledge of 2 Henkels & McCoy in any role they had in 3 relation to New Jersey Bell? 4 A. I do not. 5 Q. Do you know what a cable vault 6 cover is? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. So then you wouldn't have any idea 9 what the composition of a cable vault cover is? 10 A. What a cable vault cover be used in 11 a cable? 12 Q. To cover cable for splicing? 13 A. So you're saying a cover used in 14 cable vaults; is that what you're talking 15 about? 16 Q. It's called a cable vault cover. 17 A. I'm not familiar with that term. 18 Q. Do you know what a cable bag is? 19 A. A cable bag is my understanding is 20 a place where small pieces of wire get placed 21 when they're doing, cutting pieces of wire. 22 Q. Do you know what the composition of 23 a cable bag was? 24 A. The ones that I saw were paper. 25 Q. So you don't know about any -- 154 1 you're unaware of any fire retardant cable bag? 2 A. I'm not aware of -- 3 Q. In the contents of Bell Operating 4 Companies? 5 A. No, I am not aware of it. 6 Q. Okay. Do you know what an asbestos 7 blanket is? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You're aware that asbestos blankets 10 were used in the Bell Operating Companies in 11 conjunction with soldering operations? 12 A. I have a very vague recollection of 13 something like that. Whether or not it 14 contained asbestos, I don't know. I know that 15 blankets were placed when they were working on 16 the distribution price. 17 Q. Do you know whether those blankets 18 were ever tested by your group to determine 19 whether they contained asbestos? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Did your group ever test blankets 22 to determine whether fiber, asbestos fiber was 23 released during the use of those blankets? 24 A. I don't remember any testing. 25 Q. Can you tell me, as you sit here 155 1 today, 'cause I'm going to write them down, all 2 of the products that you're aware that 3 Operating Company employees used or encountered 4 that contained asbestos? 5 A. Can I get a clarification there? 6 You said encountered, Operating Telephone 7 Company employees worked on customer premises. 8 Q. I'm going to exclude customer 9 premises, okay? That's a good clarification. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Can you tell me all of the 12 asbestos-containing products that you're aware 13 of that Operating Company employees would have 14 used or encountered other than on customer's 15 premises? You want to think about that. He 16 had to change the tape. 17 A. All right. 18 VIDEOGRAPHER: This completes Tape 19 3 of the video deposition. 20 (Whereupon a brief recess is 21 taken.) 22 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is Tape 4 of the 23 videotape deposition of Charles Paul 24 Lichtenwalner in the matter of Degnan 25 versus Lucent. It is July 25, 2008, video 156 1 time is two o'clock. We are on the 2 record. 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 4 Q. You're going to list for me the 5 products that you can recall that contain 6 asbestos that would be used or encountered by 7 Bell Operating Company employees other than the 8 products they would have encountered on the 9 customer's premises. 10 A. We've mentioned transite and 11 transite was used on a number of different 12 places as in the ducts and also used in various 13 places in buildings as in fireproofing 14 material. I am not sure I can list all the 15 places, but those are the ones that I remember. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. There were asbestos-containing 18 resistors that were used in Central Office 19 switching equipment. At one point I was sent a 20 small piece of wire that had asbestos 21 insulation around it. It appeared to be quite 22 old. I was told that it hadn't been used for 23 many years, and I believe it was for power 24 cable, but, again, this was just something that 25 was something sort of an odd-kind of a thing. 157 1 There were, we mentioned asbestos 2 gloves. These were used in the Central Offices 3 extensively. Hopefully, they were never used. 4 They were there to put out fires and they were 5 kept in canvas bags and pulled out for 6 inspection once a year. 7 There was a clay containing 8 asbestos that I was asked to analysis at one 9 point for asbestos. I was told to use it for 10 fire stopping, but I never saw it used. I 11 never saw it being used. Let's see. 12 There's almost certainly where some 13 buildings with spray-on asbestos insulation but 14 that would have been rare in the Bell System as 15 most of the buildings that I was aware of were 16 encased in concrete. At the moment I've run 17 out of the things. 18 Q. Okay. I'm not going to ask you 19 about resistors. That has nothing to do with 20 this case. The clay, what was the form that 21 that came to you that you observed? 22 A. It came to me as a piece of clay 23 like child's modeling clay, you know, pliable 24 kind of material that that would retain its 25 shape. You can mold it any shape you want. 158 1 Q. Did you see a package for that, or 2 did it just come? 3 A. I did not see a package for it. I 4 got it sent in an envelop kind of thing. 5 Q. And the clay would that hardened or 6 would it remain malleable? 7 A. It would remain malleable. 8 Q. And did you test that clay? 9 A. I tested that clay. 10 Q. And what did you determine? 11 A. I found asbestos in it. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I'm sorry I can also -- there would 14 have been vinyl asbestos tiles for the floors. 15 Q. And you said they had potential for 16 creating exposure when they're cut, correct? 17 A. I never saw them being cut. 18 Q. Well, do the cutting of asbestos 19 floor tile create potential for asbestos 20 exposure? 21 A. I didn't measure that at all 'cause 22 I wasn't aware that Bell System people would do 23 cutting of floor tiles. 24 Q. All right. There's some you 25 probably forgot. What about ebony power board? 159 1 A. Oh, ebony power board I was told 2 had asbestos as well. 3 Q. Okay. Well, we'll agree that you 4 can't remember everyone as you sit here, 5 correct? 6 A. Thank you. 7 Q. Now, was something known as a Bell 8 System Practices guide? 9 A. There were numerous Bell System 10 Practices. I don't know about a guide for Bell 11 System. 12 Q. What is that? 13 A. Basically, Bell System Practices 14 were written practices that were written to 15 inform employees how to do their job. 16 Q. Okay. Who was the author? 17 A. There were various authors, and, 18 basically, they're usually subject matter 19 experts in the use of that particular product. 20 Q. Where did they originate? 21 A. I believe they originated, I know 22 they originated, some of them originated in 23 Bell Labs. Some of them originated in Western 24 Electric. Some of them originated at AT&T. So 25 they could have come from a number of different 160 1 places. 2 Q. And those were guides that were 3 distributed to operating company employees? 4 A. They were. 5 Q. And they would have manuals and say 6 like something like how to enter a manhole? 7 A. That was one of them, yes. 8 Q. How to use a screwdriver? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. How to pull cable through 11 distribution frame? 12 A. I'm not familiar with that one, but 13 there probably was one. 14 Q. How to pull cable through a 15 conduit? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How to do soldering? 18 A. Different types of soldering so 19 there would have been several for the type of 20 soldering that was being done. 21 Q. And did any of these guides have an 22 industrial hygiene section? 23 A. I am not sure what you mean by 24 industrial hygiene. There was no specific 25 section for industrial hygiene. 161 1 Q. In other words, if somebody, for 2 instance, if there's a guide for pulling cable 3 through conduit, does the guide say anything 4 about be careful doing this, can release 5 asbestos fiber? 6 A. Every Bell System practice that I'm 7 aware, basically, had a section on safety, 8 which would have included a section on 9 industrial hygiene. 10 Q. Did the guides ever warn, 11 specifically, about using or manipulating 12 asbestos? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Do you know whether or not the 15 guides provided them with any cautions about 16 possible asbestos contamination in the 17 manholes? 18 A. I'm not aware of it. 19 Q. That would have been a good place 20 to put it, don't you think? 21 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 22 A. Yes, it would. 23 Q. Now, how about the -- was there a 24 guide for using asbestos gloves? 25 A. The only use of asbestos gloves 162 1 that I'm aware of, would have been for putting 2 out fires in cable trays. There probably was a 3 guide for fire protection that would have 4 mentioned asbestos gloves, but I don't believe 5 there would have been a Bell System practice 6 for use of asbestos gloves. 7 Q. Well, if their witness's say they 8 used asbestos gloves when they were handling 9 hot solder, would you quarrel with that? 10 A. As I said, there were a lot of 11 people working for the Bell System and possibly 12 there were people who used them. 13 Q. Okay. Did any of the practice 14 guides that you're aware of, contain warnings 15 about potential asbestos exposure? 16 A. I don't recall any. 17 Q. But those guides would have 18 actually reached the operating company 19 employees, true? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So if you wanted to make sure 22 somebody knew about asbestos, that would have 23 been a good place to put it? 24 A. That would be one place to put it, 25 yes, and it may have been in some. 163 1 Q. But you're not aware of any? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Now, just to be clear, the good 4 news is I'm getting close to the end. You are 5 not aware of any testing -- well, scratch 6 that. AT&T, Bell Labs, and Western Electric 7 all knew that asbestos could cause cancer the 8 day you walked into to your job as an 9 industrial hygienist at Bell Labs, true? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. 11 A. There were people at AT&T Bell Labs 12 knew that asbestos could cause cancer. 13 Q. And there were people at AT&T, Bell 14 Labs, and Western Electric that understood what 15 their principles of industrial hygiene were to 16 protect workers if they wanted to, true? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And one of those principles as we 19 discussed this morning was testing to determine 20 whether people who handled asbestos-containing 21 products were at risk, true? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. So these were all things known to 24 AT&T, Bell Labs, and Western Electric the day 25 you walked into work. 164 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 2 Q. Right? 3 A. That's correct. When I walked into 4 work, yeah. 5 Q. All right. You have no evidence as 6 you sit here today that any testing was ever 7 done to determine whether asbestos fibers was 8 released during the use of asbestos-containing 9 gloves, correct? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection. 11 A. Before when I started, I don't 12 recall any information to that effect. 13 Q. At any point in time? 14 A. Well, testing I believe was done 15 not by me of the use of the gloves during an 16 inspection process. The annual inspection 17 process I believe measurements were taken. 18 Q. You mean somebody went and looked 19 at a glove that was not in use and did a test? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What happened? 22 A. I am saying that the requirement 23 was that the gloves be pulled out of their bag 24 an inspected once a year. 25 Q. Okay. 165 1 A. And as I recall, someone in our 2 group made measurements of that person while 3 they did that inspection. 4 Q. Okay. No testing was ever done of 5 gloves used, asbestos gloves used in soldering 6 operations, true? 7 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 8 A. I am not aware of asbestos gloves 9 used in soldering operations. 10 Q. No study was ever done of asbestos 11 gloves being used in asbestos soldering 12 operations, true? 13 A. As I said, I am not aware of any 14 gloves being used in soldering operations; 15 therefore, no testing was done. 16 Q. No testing was done of the use of 17 asbestos wiping cloths by cable splicers, 18 true? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 21 A. It's true. I am not aware of any 22 testing for that. 23 Q. And AT&T never directed that such 24 testing be done, correct? 25 A. I would suggest that that's 166 1 somewhat leading. The way that I would phrase 2 it, the answer is that AT&T directed the Bell 3 System Services Group to investigate asbestos 4 exposure whenever they can find it. I am not 5 aware, you know, testing in some these 6 instances, that you've mentioned. 7 Q. So you've never received a 8 directive from AT&T or the Occupational Health 9 Working Group to test the asbestos cloth, true? 10 A. That's true. 11 Q. Okay. You never did any testing 12 concerning the installation or removing of 13 asbestos pillows, true? 14 A. I don't recall doing any testing, 15 correct. 16 Q. And you never received the 17 directive from AT&T to do testing on the 18 installation or removal of asbestos pillows, 19 true? 20 A. Again, the way you are phrasing it 21 is not the way I would like to answer that 22 question. We were charged with testing 23 wherever people might have health problems 24 exposures and in some sense we instructed to do 25 some kind of testing. In another sense nothing 167 1 as a specific charge was given to us. 2 Q. So you were instructed to do it, 3 but you didn't do it? 4 A. We were instructed to find out 5 where we judge there was likely to be 6 exposures. 7 Q. How would you know unless you 8 pulled it out of the hole and stuffed it back 9 in? 10 A. That's one of the ways by testing 11 it. Another way is by looking at the potential 12 for exposure. 13 Q. Just by looking at it sitting 14 there, that was good enough for you? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection. 16 A. Things like vinyl asbestos tile, 17 that was probably enough. 18 Q. I'm not talking about that. I'm 19 talking about bags of asbestos that men took 20 and shoved into holes. Did you ever test 21 those? 22 A. I never saw that operation, and so 23 I never tested for that. 24 Q. Well, you could have done it, 25 right? They were there. All you could do is 168 1 pull them out and shoved them back in. You 2 could have tested for that, right? 3 A. At the time I didn't know they 4 contained asbestos. 5 Q. Neither did the poor people that 6 were using them, right? 7 MR. HORNBY: Objection to form. 8 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection. 9 A. I don't know what they knew. 10 Q. You never did any testing and were 11 never directed to do any testing for use with 12 asbestos blankets, true? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. You never warned people who used 15 asbestos gloves that they had the potential for 16 exposure, true? 17 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And the Occupational Health Working 20 Group never directed that people who used 21 asbestos-containing gloves be warned, true? 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 23 A. I'm sorry. What was the question? 24 Q. The Occupational Health Working 25 Group that you worked for never directed the 169 1 people who used asbestos gloves be warned for 2 the potential of exposure? 3 A. Sorry, I thought worn meaning wear 4 but you mean warned as -- 5 Q. I mean warned like -- 6 A. Alert. 7 Q. -- alert. 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. The Occupational Health Working 10 Group never directed that you warn people who 11 use asbestos wiping cloths that they have 12 potential for exposure, true? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. The Occupational Health Working 15 Group never told you to warn people who removed 16 or installed asbestos-containing pillows that 17 there was potential for asbestos exposure, 18 true? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 20 A. That was not my job. They did not 21 tell me to do so. 22 Q. Do you have any idea that they ever 23 provided the warnings for pillows? 24 A. For pillows I don't recall what. 25 Sorry, I have a vague recollection there was 170 1 something mentioned about pillows, but I don't 2 recall the details. 3 Q. Now, as part of your job, did you 4 ever go out to new construction sites? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Under what circumstances? Why 7 would you go out to new construction sites? 8 A. The reason I hesitated was because 9 if I did, it would be seldom. Why would I go 10 out, because there was potential for people to 11 be, to find out if there was a potential for 12 people to be exposed. 13 Q. Under what circumstance? 14 A. While they're performing their 15 job. The construction site, the people I would 16 have been looking at, would typically have been 17 worked engineers that were overseeing outside 18 contractors. 19 Q. Why is that? 20 A. It was my understanding that New 21 Jersey Bell at that time most of the 22 construction was done by outside contractors. 23 Q. But why would you be concerned in 24 1975 and thereafter for engineers that worked 25 for New Jersey Bell being exposed to asbestos? 171 1 A. I'm sorry, eliminate asbestos. I 2 don't recall I ever did that for asbestos. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Other hazards, yes. 5 Q. Okay. Was it a recognized 6 industrial hygiene principle that work site 7 owners had the duty to protect outside 8 contractors from harmful exposures on their 9 properties? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form, 11 calls for legal conclusion. 12 MS. CRAWFORD: Join. 13 A. That's a general principle, yes. 14 Q. Would you have supported allowing a 15 Bell System employee without protection in a 16 new construction environment where asbestos was 17 used? 18 MR. MCGOWAN: Could we have that 19 question read back? 20 Q. I'll just give the question gain so 21 we're clear. Would you have supported as an 22 industrial hygienist for Bell Laboratories 23 allowing a Bell System employee without any 24 respiratory protection to enter a new 25 construction environment where asbestos- 172 1 containing products were used? 2 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 3 A. Yes. I would because that would 4 have been my job. If it were to monitor them 5 or to determine what their exposures were, 6 again, you're saying asbestos-containing 7 products were used. Many asbestos-containing 8 products were not capable of releasing fibers 9 into the air. 10 Q. Okay. You are familiar with a 11 product know as joint compound? 12 A. I've heard the term. 13 Q. Do you know the spackling that goes 14 on the walls? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Have you ever seen that sanded? 17 A. Have it -- 18 Q. -- sanded when it's applied? 19 A. Yes, I have. I have. 20 Q. It creates dust? 21 A. It does. 22 Q. Were you aware that that product 23 contained asbestos? 24 A. Some of it may have. 25 Q. Would you have allowed a Bell 173 1 Operating employee to enter a work environment 2 where joint compound was being sanded without 3 any protection? 4 A. It was not my job to disallow 5 employees to enter areas. That was their 6 supervisor. 7 Q. Would you recommended that an 8 employee be allowed in an area where asbestos- 9 containing joint compound were be sanded and 10 created dust? 11 A. If I -- how would I know or how 12 would the employee know if it contained 13 asbestos? 14 Q. Someone would have to test it, 15 right? 16 A. Or in that particular case you'd 17 have to read the product label. 18 Q. Right. Would you have recommended 19 that a Bell System employee work in an 20 environment without any protection where 21 asbestos-containing joint compound was being 22 sanded? 23 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 24 A. I would first of all, been testing 25 it before I recommended it or removed it or 174 1 decided not to recommend it. 2 Q. Test it for what? 3 A. Test it for asbestos. 4 Q. Supposed you found out -- 5 A. And other materials that might be 6 present there. 7 Q. Supposed you found out it was 8 asbestos, then what would you have 9 recommended? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection. 11 A. It depends on the levels. 12 Q. Well, if you knew there was 13 asbestos in the dust that was being created in 14 the sanding operation, what recommendations 15 would you make? 16 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. 17 A. Is this hypothetical? 18 Q. It's not hypothetical, sir. 19 A. It's not hypothetical? 20 Q. No. 21 A. No? Because, again, that never 22 occurred to me at the time so that's why. 23 Basically, okay, you want me to go through with 24 that? 25 Q. (Indicating.) 175 1 A. I would recommend respiratory 2 protection while I was monitoring them. Then 3 based on results, I would determine whether or 4 not respiratory was needed in the future. 5 Q. If AT&T was building a new building 6 and asbestos products were being used and those 7 products created dust on their installation, 8 would you have allowed a Bell System employee 9 in that building without you first testing to 10 see if a hazard existed? 11 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 12 MS. CRAWFORD: Object to form. 13 A. Basically, I would discuss what 14 kind of work they were doing to determine 15 whether or not that material would be 16 disturbed. 17 Q. Supposed it was going to be 18 disturbed and they were going to be in the 19 area, what recommendation would you make? 20 A. Recommendation would be, it could 21 be many recommendations. One of the 22 recommendations would be to have the employer 23 or the owner of the building clean it before 24 they are allowed to work, wear respiratory 25 protection if you don't know what the maximum 176 1 level is, instruct the employee not to disturb 2 the material, wet it down. Again, it would 3 depend very much on a particular situation. 4 Q. The recommendation once you knew 5 there was a potential for exposure would never 6 be to do nothing, am I right? 7 A. Do nothing mean not do the job? 8 Q. Doing nothing to protect the 9 worker. 10 A. I'm sorry, another possibility 11 would be not to do that job so. . . 12 Q. The recommendation would never be 13 to do nothing to protect the health and safety 14 of that that worker if there was a potential 15 for exposures, true? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. What I want to do is, I want to 18 take minutes, go through my notes to see if I'm 19 done here, okay? 20 (Whereupon a brief recess is 21 taken.) 22 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:38. 23 We are on the record. 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 Q. I just want to be clear on 177 1 something, when you did the testing in the New 2 Jersey Bell Central Offices, I think you told 3 me there was asbestos present in the ambient 4 air based on your testimony, correct? 5 A. I am sorry if I did. I misspoke. 6 I meant fibers were present in the ambient 7 air. 8 Q. All right. 9 A. And the asbestos standard is based 10 on the fibers that you count. 11 Q. Okay. You found asbestos fibers in 12 the ambient air in the New Jersey Bell 13 Operating Offices? 14 A. No. We found fibers in the ambient 15 air and the asbestos standards specify that you 16 count the fibers in the air. And that's how 17 you determine whether or not you've exceeded 18 the standard. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. And it may or may not be asbestos. 21 Q. So you never looked to see if the 22 fibers in the air were asbestos or not. 23 A. Never is a strong term. We did do 24 some -- it requires transmission microscopy 25 just to find out fibers in the air. There were 178 1 certainly some samples that were done like 2 that. But the standard technique is just to 3 count the number of fibers in the air. 4 Q. Okay. Once you found out there 5 were fibers in the air, you never went to the 6 next step to find out if the fibers were 7 asbestos? 8 A. Generally, not. 9 Q. Well, were the fibers in the air 10 above background? 11 A. Usually, they were below the 12 ambient outside background. 13 Q. So you saw fibers in the air, but 14 you never figured out whether the fibers were 15 asbestos? 16 A. I wouldn't say never, but most of 17 the time we did not go the next step to 18 determine whether or not these fibers were 19 asbestos. The standard at the time, and I 20 think, believe still, does not call for 21 identification of those fibers as to whether or 22 not they are asbestos. 23 Q. So as long as they were below the 24 then existing OSHA limit, you did not endeavor 25 to find out whether the fibers that were 179 1 floating around in the air were asbestos or 2 not; is that a fair statement? 3 A. That's a fair statement. 4 Q. Okay. Even if they were in the 5 breathing zone of the people that worked in 6 that building? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. Do you try -- scratch that. Every 9 time you did a study in the New Jersey Central 10 Offices for New Jersey Bell, did you find 11 fibers in the air? 12 A. It's a difficult thing to answer 13 because the way you do -- the analysis is done, 14 there's almost always some residual background 15 on the filters that you've analyze and you have 16 to subtract what you find in the air sample 17 from what you get on a blank filter. 18 So there were almost invariably 19 fibers determined when we did count even on 20 blank filters that had no air drawn through 21 them. 22 Q. I don't want to know about the 23 blank stuff. All I want to know is every time 24 you actually test the air in the New Jersey 25 Bell Central Offices, did you find fibers? 180 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How many times did you do that 3 testing? 4 A. I don't know the exact number. 5 Q. Or was it ten, 50, a hundred, a 6 thousand, guesstimate? 7 A. My guess would be about 200. 8 Q. So on, approximately, 200 samples 9 you did, every time you found fibers in the 10 air, right? 11 A. All right, I mean fibers on the 12 filters. 13 Q. All right. 14 A. I wouldn't necessarily say fibers 15 in the air, but we found fibers and the fiber 16 is defined basically as a certain morphological 17 shape. It may or may not be a fiber. It might 18 be some artifact of the way the filter is 19 prepared. 20 Q. You found fibers in each of the 200 21 samples that you took, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And even though you took 200 24 samples where you found fibers, you never once 25 looked to see if any of those fibers were 181 1 asbestos? 2 A. I don't know how many times. We 3 did some sampling by transmission of 4 electro microscopy to determine whether 5 or not there were asbestos fibers in 6 the air. 7 Q. So you did do it? 8 A. We did some. 9 Q. Did you find asbestos fibers? 10 A. I believe we found them. 11 Q. Okay. When you found there was 12 asbestos fibers in the air, was that indicative 13 that -- well, scratch that. What 14 recommendations did you make to the Bell, to 15 the Objectional Working Group about whether the 16 people working in those offices should know 17 that there was asbestos floating in the air? 18 A. The recommendation that was made 19 was a letter to the OSHA director as to what 20 happens when you find asbestos fibers in the 21 air and you also find asbestos fibers in the 22 ambient air and they are approximately equal. 23 So that letter for clarification of the OSHA 24 specs standards went out to the director of 25 OSHA at the time. 182 1 Q. Okay. And what happened? 2 A. I believe it was Mark Horn, and on 3 his last day in office, he, two years after the 4 question went out to him, he responded, and, 5 basically, ducked the question, to my, as I 6 recall the answer. 7 Q. So he ducked the question? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. So while you waited for two years 10 for an answer, nobody was told anything? 11 A. Sorry? 12 MR. MCGOWAN: About what? 13 Q. About what you do about the fibers 14 floating in the air inside Central Offices? 15 You waited for two years from OSHA and during 16 that whole time the Occupational Working Group 17 never said we better tell the people in those 18 offices? 19 A. The levels were below the 20 occupational exposure limits at the time. 21 Q. Okay. I understand that. 22 A. Typically, in the Central Offices 23 they were below the ambient outside air. 24 Q. Okay. You build a building, 25 right? When you build that building, don't you 183 1 have ventilation in that building? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And how many times an hour does the 4 building get ventilated, the ventilated air 5 changed typically? 6 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 7 A. It depends. But in Central Offices 8 probably something like two to four times per 9 hour. 10 Q. So two to four times per hour. So 11 let's say two 'cause I'm bad in math. And 12 there are 24 hours in a day, so that's 48 hours 13 times a day the air is changed, correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Even though the air is changed over 16 48 times a day, when you did your testing over 17 time, each time you still found fibers in the 18 air? 19 A. I don't understand what you're 20 driving at. We find fibers in the outside air 21 and we find fibers in the building. 22 Q. I understand but -- 23 A. And we typically find lower levels 24 inside the building because the air that's 25 brought inside the building is filtered and 184 1 that removes dust particles included. 2 Q. So then any of the fibers that were 3 inside the building came from inside the 4 building, right? 5 A. Incorrect. 6 Q. Well, you just said that the air 7 that was coming from the outside removed the 8 fibers with the filter. 9 A. I said it was filtered but that's 10 not a hundred percent filtration. 11 Q. Well, what percent? 12 A. With the filters that we're using 13 at the Bell System, I believe they were 14 something like 95 percent filters through. 15 Q. So they took out 95 percent of 16 whatever could come in and we filtered out at 17 least 48 times a day, but every time you went 18 and you took a sample, you found fibers in the 19 air? 20 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection. 22 A. It wasn't filtered 48 times a day. 23 Q. Well, there was an air exchange 48 24 times, right? 25 A. That's correct. 185 1 Q. Didn't you tell me that the air 2 exchange has ability to eliminate asbestos from 3 the environment? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 5 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 6 A. I said it has the ability to 7 partially eliminate. 8 Q. Never totally? 9 A. Never totally. 10 Q. Okay. So when those guys were down 11 in the contaminated manholes, and those 12 manholes were ventilated, they were never 13 totally decontaminated by ventilation were 14 they -- 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Objection to form. 16 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 17 Q. -- by your own statement? 18 A. There was no filtration with the 19 stuff that was used in the manhole. 20 Q. All right. So if the manhole was 21 contaminated with asbestos, there was no way of 22 getting all the asbestos out that was 23 contaminating that manhole, true? 24 MS. D'ANNUNZIO: Objection. 25 A. I don't see how that follows the 186 1 filtration in a building. 2 Q. Well, you told me that one of the 3 ways you got the asbestos out the manhole was 4 there was an air exchange, ventilated, right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. But that ventilation would never 7 totally remove the asbestos in the manholes 8 once they were there, would you agree with 9 that? 10 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 11 A. Again, if there's asbestos in the 12 ambient air outside and you're blowing that 13 into the manhole, that asbestos in the ambient 14 air is going to be in the manhole as well as -- 15 well, it's going to be in the manhole. 16 Q. Well, what about the asbestos 17 that's in the manhole from the pulling the 18 cable, where does that go? 19 A. Blown out of the manhole. 20 Q. All of it? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So once the asbestos is in the 23 manhole and contaminated, it's never totally 24 removed, do you agree with that? 25 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to the form. 187 1 MS. D'ANNUNZIO: Objection. 2 A. I would -- totally remove? 3 Q. Right. 4 A. No. 5 Q. But the workers were never told 6 that, right? 7 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 8 A. There were a number of training, 9 things that were given for asbestos. I know in 10 particular for people working on customer 11 premises. I don't know what kind of training 12 was given on asbestos for New Jersey Bell 13 employees. I do know that New Jersey Bell did 14 keep training records of the training for their 15 employees. 16 Q. You're aware of training that says 17 hey you cable splicer go down on that manhole, 18 you're at risk of dying from asbestos? 19 A. I am not aware of any training with 20 those exact words. 21 Q. So now let's go back to the AT&T 22 building. I just want to make sure I 23 understand this. You did samples, at least 200 24 samples in the New Jersey Bell Central Offices 25 over an extended period of time? 188 1 A. Eighteen months? 2 Q. Okay. Over 18 months. I don't 3 have the math in my head to do. And you say 4 that the air is exchanged, it's cleared out two 5 to four times an hour, right? 6 A. With air from outside. 7 Q. Right. And that you filter out 95 8 percent of the air comes in is clean, right? 9 A. No, it filters out 95 percent of 10 the particles. 11 Q. Right, the fibers. 12 A. Right. Of a certain size and again 13 it depends on specified tests and it -- 14 Q. Just so I understand -- 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. So over 18 months, even though you 17 filter out 95 percent of what can come in terms 18 of fibers, and you have 48 air changes a day, 19 every time you looked in the Central Offices, 20 you found asbestos fiber, you found fibers in 21 the air, right? 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 23 A. We found fibers in the filters. 24 Q. That came from the air? 25 A. Some came from the air. Some were 189 1 artifacts of the filter and the analytical 2 technique. 3 Q. Okay. Some came from the air? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Don't you think that any of those 6 fibers could have come from activities that 7 went on inside the offices? 8 A. I believe it could, yes. 9 Q. Now, any increase in the number of 10 fibers in a work environment increases the risk 11 for getting disease, do you agree with that? 12 MR. HORNBY: Object to form. 13 A. That's not my, I'm not an 14 epidemiology. 15 Q. That's fair. Was there a spec for 16 the transite conduit? 17 A. I'm sorry, was there a what? 18 Q. A specification for the transite 19 conduit. 20 A. I'm almost certain there was. 21 Q. Do you know whose specification it 22 was? 23 A. I do not know. 24 Q. If I wanted to find a spec for the 25 conduit, what would I look for? 190 1 A. Good question. I really couldn't 2 say. 3 Q. Looking back, knowing everything 4 that you know now, did the Occupational Health 5 Working Group make any mistakes in protecting 6 workers in Bell Operating Companies from 7 potential exposure to asbestos during their 8 work activities? 9 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. 10 A. None that I know of. 11 Q. So you agree that everything they 12 did then was deliberate? 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to the form. 14 MR. HORNBY: Objection. 15 A. Deliberate? 16 Q. There was no mistakes, then it was 17 deliberate? 18 A. Deliberate and no mistakes are not 19 opposites in my terminology. 20 Q. How about on purpose? Everything 21 they did was on purpose? 22 A. Everything they did was on purpose. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: That's all the 24 questions I have. Thank you. 25 Anybody else? 191 1 MR. KOOI: I have a few questions. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KOOI: 3 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I'm with the 4 law firm of Margolis, Edelstein. Hopefully, 5 I'll be quick. I only have a few questions for 6 you. 7 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you tell me 8 who you represent? 9 MR. KOOI: John Crane. 10 Q. What, if any, procedures were in 11 place regarding the safety of the work 12 performed by contractors or subcontractors at 13 Bell or AT&T facilities? 14 A. What time frame are you talking 15 about? If you have any or can you be more 16 specific? 17 Q. From the time of your initial 18 industrial hygiene position forward. 19 A. Again, at Bell Laboratories there 20 were requirements, basically, people when they 21 sign the contract, they had to show that they 22 had -- were going to follow OSHA regulations 23 and so forth. Depending upon where they were 24 working we would inform them of that. 25 In the Operating Telephone 192 1 Companies, it was my understanding that most of 2 the contractors, the buildings were secured and 3 contractors were generally not performing work 4 in there unless you want to consider Western 5 Election as being contractors inside a New 6 Jersey Bell or an AT&T building. It's a very 7 broad question, I am an industrial hygienist. 8 I didn't specify what the requirements were. 9 Q. Okay. Do you know if Bell had any 10 policies separate and distinct from the OSHA 11 regulations regarding workplace safety of 12 contractors or subcontractors. 13 A. To my knowledge they required 14 contractors or subcontractors to follow the 15 OSHA regulations. 16 There were no differences between 17 the OSHA regulations or the recommendations of 18 the American Conference of Governmental 19 Hygienists or the National Institute of 20 Occupational Safety & Health. We would 21 typically choose to use the most restrictive 22 occupational exposure limit. 23 Q. Did Bell separate its in-house 24 personnel from the work areas of contractors or 25 subcontractors? 193 1 MR. MCGOWAN: Object to form. Bell 2 who? 3 Q. Bell Labs? 4 A. Bell Labs? Depends on what was 5 going on. If we're talking construction 6 activity, we try to seal off the areas where 7 the construction was going on to protect the 8 employees. If we're talking about people like 9 digital equipment who did computers and so 10 forth at Bell Laboratories, then they would 11 often times have desks nearby, be treated much 12 like Bell Labs' employees. 13 Q. For the purposes of my questions 14 today, I am going to use contractors and 15 subcontractors as construction workers, okay? 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. I apologize for that for the lack 18 of clarity there. To what extent did Bell Labs 19 direct the work of contractors or 20 subcontractors performing work on its 21 premises? 22 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 23 MR. MCGOWAN: Form. 24 A. Without specific information about 25 the type work that was being done, I couldn't 194 1 really say. 2 Q. Did you have any interaction with 3 construction contractors while working at Bell 4 Labs? 5 A. I did. 6 Q. And what was the extent of your 7 interaction? 8 A. My interaction was typically to 9 sometimes review the plan scope of work and 10 also to do monitoring in the areas outside 11 where the construction was being done to ensure 12 that Bell Labs' employees were not overexposed 13 to toxic agents, noise, physical agents. 14 Q. Did you have any role in 15 formulating the safety procedures for 16 contractors or subcontractors working at Bell 17 facilities? 18 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: Are we talking 20 about labs? 21 A. Basically, I had very little role 22 in terms of writing procedures for the work 23 activities. 24 Q. Do you know who did -- withdrawn. 25 Okay. I think that's all the questions I have 195 1 for you today. Thanks. For your time. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. I have a 3 couple, just a couple. 4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA: 5 Q. Do you have any familiarity with 6 the AT&T buildings at Hoes Lane in Piscataway? 7 A. There was a tower at Hoes Lane in 8 Piscataway that I spent some time at, yes. 9 Q. You're talking about an office 10 building? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. What did you do there? 13 A. I oversaw asbestos removal after 14 the breakup of the Bell System. 15 Q. When did that asbestos removal take 16 place? Sorry, it's going to take five minutes. 17 A. Yeah. Again, I don't know the 18 exact date, but it was probably after, 19 somewhere around 1984, '85. 20 Q. What areas of the building it would 21 be, do you recall? 22 A. The asbestos was removed from the 23 hung ceilings. 24 Q. You mean the sealing tiles 25 themselves? 196 1 A. No. I don't mean the ceiling tiles 2 themselves, I mean spay-on asbestos on the 3 ceilings of the ceiling tiles. 4 Q. Do you know when that building was 5 constructed? 6 A. I do not. 7 Q. Was that the only asbestos that was 8 abated? 9 A. I don't recall, but that was the 10 major bulk of the work. 11 Q. Did you oversee the abatement? 12 A. I was hired to perform air 13 monitoring to assure that the people in the 14 buildings on floors, other than where the 15 asbestos was being removed, were not exposed to 16 asbestos. So I didn't oversee necessarily the 17 actual work. 18 Q. What floors, do you remember how 19 many floors? 20 A. As I remember, it was nine or ten 21 floors. 22 Q. And they all had spray asbestos 23 above the plenums? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were cables run above the plenums? 197 1 A. At the time that I was, probably 2 the cables perhaps were probably there. I 3 don't remember in particular. 4 Q. When that building was constructed, 5 would Bell Labs have been in charge of the 6 industrial hygiene related to that building? 7 A. It would not. 8 Q. Who would have been in charge? 9 A. There was a company called 195 10 Broadway Corporation that built a lot of the 11 buildings. I don't know for a fact, but I 12 would guess that the 195 Broadway Corporation 13 would have been responsible for it, or it may 14 have been another company and they purchased 15 the building. Again, I don't -- 16 Q. How long had AT&T own that building 17 to your knowledge? 18 A. I have no knowledge of how long. 19 Q. Did AT&T maintain the ability as 20 the owner of the building on new construction 21 to stop construction anytime it wanted to if it 22 thought it was an unhealthy work environment? 23 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 24 A. I would assume that it did. 25 Q. The ultimate control of the work 198 1 site on new construction laid with the building 2 owner, would you agree with that? 3 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 4 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that? 5 Q. The ultimate control of what went 6 on with the work site was with the building 7 owner doing construction? 8 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 9 A. I couldn't say. Responsibility 10 could have been handed to the general 11 contractor. So I really don't know. 12 Q. But the buck ultimately stops with 13 the owner? 14 MS. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 15 A. I am not sure of the legal 16 ramifications. 17 Q. How about from an industrial 18 hygiene perspective? Is the responsibility to 19 the workers on a construction site ultimately 20 that of the owner? 21 A. The responsibility, to my mind, 22 would rest both with the owner and the 23 contractor that was building it. 24 Q. Thank you. That's all the 25 questions I have. 199 1 MR. MCGOWAN: We're done? Thank 2 you everyone. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes 5 today's deposition. We are off the 6 record. 7 (Deposition adjourned at 3:10 p.m.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 1 CERTIFICATION OF VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 2 3 I, Rachel Santiago, hereby certify that 4 the transcript I have herein produced is within 5 the guidelines adopted by the State of New 6 Jersey Administrative Code and I certify to the 7 following: 8 I am not related to any party involved in 9 this action and I have no financial interest in 10 the outcome of this action. 11 I am a court reporter, an unbiased agent 12 of the courts and the transcript produced 13 herein is a verbatim record of the testimony as 14 testified to under oath within a judicial body 15 created by statute of the State of New Jersey. 16 Also, I am a duly authorized Notary Public 17 of the State of New Jersey or an otherwise 18 acceptable Foreign Commissioner of Deeds, duly 19 authorized to administer oaths for the purpose 20 of this record. 21 My commission expires August 2012. Notary 22 Public NO. 2204535. 23 24 25 Signature__________________________