Hypothetical Question - What would society be like if there were no consequences?

What kind of a society (sans a god) do you think we would have if everyone believed they were born bad,couldn't help but to do bad--but that it didn't matter because they would never get thrown in jail.

In my opinion--it would be and IS chaos, but it IS chaos due to the influence of Christianity which holds to the above meta theory. (sin, repent, sin, repent--repeat when necessary without consequence)

So what is your view of a society that could do whatever they wanted to without consequences.

Replies to This Discussion

great discussion so far. if you are a professor and still teaching, i hope you arent telling people that constantine was the founder of christianity because that is absolutely inaccurate and a misrepresentation of christianity. i think you were mislead somewhere along the way. perhaps by someone who was catholic. or maybe you attended a catholic church and that was the message you recieved. or maybe its a misunderstanding of terms. christianity was in no way founded by a roman who lived 400 years after jesus was born who did not write a single book of the bible. christianity was in fact started by jesus christ when he claimed to be the son of god and the fulfillment of the prophesies of the old testement. he preached and taught and changed the rules of old religion. thus founding a new religion named after him. chrisitans were only a couple hundred strong durring his life but after his resurrection that number immediately skyrocketed to a few thousand. peter, paul and apollos then started the first churches in around 50 or 60 ad. if a person who claims to be christian, no matter what denomination, says that jesus christ was not the founder and reason of christianity then i will be the first one to tell them that they are not christians.

you say that you dont mind people having faith as long as its in the right thing. by saying that, you are assuming of that your opinion of whats right and wrong is more valid than everyone elses. when i was an athiest, this was my final hurtle that i had to justify. the "goodness" of god. i have always had a big conscience and a person of moral conviction. but through alot of soul searching, i realized that i was the god of my own life. and every person and everything i allowed in my life was there to serve me. the bible even warns " For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2tim 4:3). more plainly, i had a belief, or actually rejected the morality of another belief, and then i surrounded myself with like minded people and religions to solidify my belief. i had to finally realize that, simply, life is not fair. that is one of the biggest arguments i get from athiests now. "well you mean to tell me that your god is going to send the majority of people in the world to hell just for not believing in him? thats not right and not fair." i find myself having the exact same argument with my 7year old when she says "but daddy, thats not fair." and i respond "who says life is fair? where is that written?." jesus even said that its a narrow door and only 1/3 of the world will enter and many who think they are in gods good grace, jesus will shut the door and say "i do not know you" that day will not be a good day for anyone. true christian or not.

prov14:12 says "there is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death." i am not here to justify the words and rules of the bible. like i said its not my job to judge. so i wont ever tell you or anyone else whats right or wrong on a philisophical or theological standpoint. if you kill kids or dogs i will say thats not right, but thats not what we are talking about. all i can say is, this is what the bible says. and after a really long time of studying the words and history of it. i can honestly say that i have faith in the truth of it.

next point. i wasnt in on the scientific or sociological experiment where they took a controlled group of individuals and told them that they are dirty filthy sinners and have it result in chaos. so i cant really say what would happen. but i can tell you that when christianity teaches that we are all sinners, its not done as a form of abuse. if you psychologically and verbally abuse a person and tell them that they are worthless pieces of crap, most likely they will turn out to be worthless pieces of crap. so i agree with you on that point. but the words of chirstianity arent abusive. they are humbling and inspiring. people have a natural tendancy of walking around thinking we are different and better than anyone else. we compete with everyone in order to establish a pecking order. this is the society we live in. we are quick to point out everyone elses shortcomings while ignoring our own. it is helpful to take a giant step back and get some humility.

last point, sorry for long response but im only responding in order of your points. the world is not FULL of christians. christians dont even make up 30% of the world population. and that number includes mormons, unity, and a bunch of other wacky "christian" religions that dont belive in christ i would guess probably only 15% of the world are true jesus and bible believing christians. so christians arent the ones causing the CHAOS, the the ones that are do not blame it on the fact that they are innately bad and cant help it. counterpoint: the persecution of christians is at an unprecedented high. not since the beginning of christianity have we seen this much persecution.

check out www.persecution.org your right it is a chaotic world we live in. but we cant put the blame on a specific race, ethnic group or religion. everyone contributes in one way or another to the way or anther.

i will certainly read more on the subject and will continue along my path. in the mean time. i am also writting a book. i started a blog about it but basically would love more insight and input. i ask 2 simple questions on that blog wanting as many answers as possible.

i never want to stop learning and persuing. my mind will always stay open and i dont ever want the day to come where i say "there ya go. i figured it all out" because none of us have it figured all out. we wont know it until we die.

I still dont think you understand the point of christianity. we all sin. we are all sinners.

We are all sinners by who's standards? Yahweh's? Prove that Yahweh is real, and why we should care about its opinion.

oh and btw. constantine was NOT basically the founder of the religion or even close to it. jesus is the founder of the religion.

I'd say that whoever wrote the OT is the founder of the religion. J-zeus came way after. Jesus is the queen of the modern christianity, but Yahweh the blood god was the bee's knees back in his day.Also, Constantine might not have been the creator of the myth, but he is the sole reason it spread like a virus through humanity. He is the reason the bible exists, and he is the reason christianity didn't go the way of Ahura Mazda.

my impression is that you have felt judgement from people who consider themselves christian. (which is not reflective of the bibles teachings)

Ahem...

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 2 Cor. 6:14

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. 2 John 1:9-11

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. 2 Chr. 15:12-13

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 2 Thess. 3:6

To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. Psalm 14:1

And so on... Sounds like some pretty judgmental teachings to me.

the rules are good,

Which rules are good? The ones about stoning disobedient children? Being killed for eating shellfish? For mixing fabrics in clothing? Forcing a woman to marry her rapist? Killing her if she didn't "scream enough" when raped? Being killed for working on the Sabbath? Killing people for not believing? Killing witches, homosexuals, fortunetellers, followers of other religions, adulterers, false prophets, women who are not virgins on their wedding night?

I can keep going.

basically. better to criticize the individual than the religion

So, it's better to criticize a person because they have bat shit crazy beliefs, instead of the source of those bat shit crazy beliefs? Then why all this uproar over gun control after all those kids got killed? Let's just blame the kid who did it. That should fix the problem by your reasoning.

im willing to wager that you have passed far more judgement on christians than they have on you. (not judging tho lol)

That is a judgement. Saying "not judging tho lol" is the same as me calling you a douchebag and then saying "no offense though."

when i was an athiest, and trust me, i was a bigger anti-christian than anyone i have ever met,

You haven't met many atheists then have you. Being anti-christian does not make you atheist. Muslims are anti-christian, I don't recommend you call any of them atheist.

many athiests have their favorite scripture that they use to try to win arguments.

Many atheists know the scriptures better than the religion that follows them. Plenty of surveys and research out on the internet to show that. Also, another judgement.

but taking scripture out of context and applying modern day meaning to the words is not an accurate way to depict a religion or to make a general statement about a group of people.

Ah! Now we are getting somewhere!So, taking an ancient book, and applying modern scenarios and thinking to it is not accurate and doesn't depict the religion correctly? Then why do you theists insist that this ancient book should be used to govern our modern ways of life? Taking these bronze age teachings and trying to force them into the modern world, according to you, doesn't translate very well. So why do it?

if you want to shut christians up forever, i suggest you dig in, study, and really try to understand the meaning of the books of the bible. specifically the new testement.

We have dug in, studied and really tried to understand the meaning of the books of the bible. Not just the somewhat warm and fuzzy NT, but ALL OF IT. What makes the NT more important than the OT?

No, I do not say that Constantine is the founder--he is the promulgator. Paul is the founder. You see, Jesus lived and died as a Jew. Never did he intend to form another religion. Jesus was a Jew--he lived and died as a Jew. Remember that. Jesus was not a "Christian."

Jesus did not fulfill any so called "prophecies" that you speak of. In fact, go read my latest blog post to find out why if he ever existed, he isn't even coming back because he was supposed to have come back within the lifetime of his disciples--but didn't. Hence, it is a failed prophecy.

I find it interesting that Catholics don't think Protestants are Christian, and the other way around. We have multiple denominations pitted against each other, each claiming the other isn't "Christian" because they don't believe the same things. That's some "revelation" from your so-called God you have there. It's so "revealing" even his own children don't understand it, so they all interpret it differently, and then kill each other over those differences! How terribly sad, but, according to your bible, your god planned it that way as, "...every decision is from the Lord" (Prov. 16:33)

BTW--according to the Bible, you do not choose whether you believe in your god or not. Your faith is but at the whim of your god as it states in Ephesians 2. Your faith is "not of yourself" it is a "gift from god." Ah yes.....this means your god chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell--you have nothing to do with it. So, life may not be fair--but neither is your god. He does not give everyone a fair chance, because he decides who is saved and who suffers for eternity for finite sins before we have even seen the light of day. He is quite the sadist after all, so I understand. You must remember the genocide of Noah, where your god supposedly killed every living thing because they were so sinful--but that did NOTHING to change anything (the survivors were still the same kind of people) so he killed everyone for NOTHING, knowing that he killed everyone for NOTHING, and that he was going to have to send his son to fix things anyway. He didn't do a very good job either. Yes, quite the sadist your god is.

Furthermore, if your god is perfect, all knowing and all powerful, he could very well have created a perfect world, without even the possibility of sin--like he did heaven. If he created heaven that way, he could have created the earth that way too--but chose not to. He chose it to be a hostile and unfair environment, where children are raped and murdered by "men of god," and so many others suffer unjustly. I'm sure that gives your god a tickle, since he supposedly created the world this way in the first place-- the way he wanted it to be. Oh, and don't try to blame Satan for all the troubles, because he is just Yahweh's lackey, and according to the Old Testament he cannot do anything without Yahweh's consent. So if you are blaming Satan (one of the sons of god after all) you are blaming your god.

Yes, the world is full of Christians, as they are in the majority, and they dominate in the world's most powerful countries and it is these countries that shape world events. Leaders of these countries have used the blood of your god as a catalyst to instigate more bloodshed. Blood washing away blood--a perversion on top of a perversion. It sickens me.

I hope many people stop by to read this thread, and come to realize just how silly your belief system is, and the consequences of that belief system.

yes by gods standards, oops i forgot we are all sinners except you. i forgot you are perfect.

I'd say that whoever wrote the OT is the founder of the religion. - milo

this proves you know absolutely nothing about christianity. so all the points you think you are making come accross extremely ignorant and arrogant.

i dont know how to better explain this milo. christianity is not the old testement or the new testement. it is jesus christ. the bible is about jesus christ. christianity is the prophecy of jesus christ (old testement), the birth, teaching, death, then resurrection of jesus christ.and then finally the ruling and judgment of jesus christ.(new testement) it is all with the underlying subject of JESUS CHRIST. thats it. that is whole point.

mica gets no more of my time until he can figure out what he is actually arguing against.

cathy Jesus did not fulfill any so called "prophecies" that you speak of.

theres a few fulfilled prophecies for ya. first thing that popped up when i typed in "fulfilled prophecies"

Furthermore, if your god is perfect, all knowing and all powerful, he could very well have created a perfect world.

he did but eve screwed it up. and yes it is true. jesus chooses who goes to heaven and hell. you are still using the "thats not fair" argument. even those that believe they were born with a logical mind that rejects the idea of anything that that goes beyond the grasp of their own infinite wisdom. jesus will choose heaven or hell for them. even those who believe they were born with a mind that rejects the idea of anything they cant prove without a math equation. jesus judges. a mind that is incapable of taking an affirmative belief in anything and settles for "if you cant prove it then it isnt real" jesus judges. its not fair. i get it. i thought i was cursed with one of those minds. turns out i was just being narrow.

try proving love. i know my wife loves me. it goes beyond her actions, her words, and her emotions. its not based on events or a timeline. its a feeling that i have and know deep down. but someone with a silly, logical and narrow sense of reality will say. you cant prove that love exists. you cant see it. you cant measure it. and your own personal accounts do not prove anything. its sad to think that people do not believe that anything can exist beyond the scope of their own understanding. i would say that those people believe they are their own god of their own universe. everything passes through their own judgment.

CAMERON W - nice list of prophecies you have there. I don't suppose the fact that the New Testament events were deliberately written to comply with those prophecies and appear to fulfill them, is any kind of problem for you --

I still dont think you understand the point of christianity. we all sin. we are all sinners. EVERYONE.

The existence of sin depends on the existence of God; sin is a theistic word that refers to the violation of God's will.

There is no evidence that God exists. So there is no reason to accept that sin exists either. One cannot violate God's will any more than one can violate a leprechaun's will.

The rest of the conversation, therefore, is academic.

my impression is that you have felt judgement from people who consider themselves christian. (which is not reflective of the bibles teachings) so it isnt fair to blame the bible or the religion for actions that contradict those of the teachings.

The Christians who committed atrocities throughout history and preach hatred in modern times have done so while citing the Bible and Christian teachings. It's fair game to level criticism at such interpretations and at the Bible and religion that makes them possible.

that would be like if there was a corrupt police officer and you went around saying that the idea of the police force is corrupt... no, that corrupt cop broke the rules of the police force. the rules are good, the people are not. and the church is full of people that god is working on.

If the law requires police to kill homosexuals or escaped slaves and the police kill them, that's not due to police corruption, that's due to an evil law.

im willing to wager that you have passed far more judgement on christians than they have on you.

You'd lose that wager by a mile; prayer in schools, creationism in biology class, mangers at city hall, in God we trust on money, under God in the pledge, discrimination against homosexuals and racial minorities, harassment in the military, exclusion from public offices, swearing oaths on Bibles, and endless personal insults, threats, and hateful comments. It goes on, and on, and on, every single day. When we speak up, you howl about how persecuted you are.

when i was an athiest, and trust me, i was a bigger anti-christian than anyone i have ever met, i thought the same way you did. i was probably a little more combative and aggressive tho.

You sound a lot like David Henson.

many athiests have their favorite scripture that they use to try to win arguments. but taking scripture out of context and applying modern day meaning to the words is not an accurate way to depict a religion or to make a general statement about a group of people.

The 41,000 denominations of Christianity and 900 translations of the Bible are good cause for the most withering criticism of all: the ability to interpret the Bible however you want. It doesn't get much more accurate than that. To this end, Christians take scripture out of context, or take scripture in the proper context; or apply modern-day meaning (or any other meaning they like) to the words.

if you want to shut christians up forever, i suggest you dig in, study, and really try to understand the meaning of the books of the bible. specifically the new testement.

The "meaning" of the Bible is whatever you or any religious crackpot wants it mean; so it's meaningless. And there's still the problem of providing evidence that God exists and that God either wrote the Bible or used magical powers to make human proxies write it for him.

I want rationality and reason to prevail. No war has ever started because people were being too rational or too reasonable. To that end I want to be free from the social, legal, and intellectual pollution of religion.

If it is the case that Eve "screwed up" in a so-called "perfect garden" then it would also be possible to "screw up" in the perfect heaven. Ah--but Christians tell me that is not possible. If it's not possible to "screw up" in heaven, your god could have made it not possible to "screw up" on earth too. But he didnt. Again, this illustrates how sadistic your god is.

Surely you are not saying the Jewish people are stupid and do not know their own religious text. If they knew their own text, and witnessed the so-called "miracles" they would not have rejected your god. I mean, who would be stupid enough to reject a god after the miracles and prophecies? Jesus must not have matched the so-called prophecies or they would not have rejected him--but they did.

The reason why the Jews rejected Jesus in the first place, was because he did NOT match any of their prophecies. For who would be stupid enough to witness miracles, and a baby born of a virgin under a star only 3 wise men saw--and reject him as god for a bunch of Pharisees? On the other hand, if the Jews were so stupid and could not recognize their own messiah, and didn't know their own text, and turned a blind eye to the "miracles" performed in front of them--then they would have to have been awfully stupid. If they were that stupid, why would we believe anything they said in the first place? But in point of fact, they did know their text, and they rejected Jesus because he did not match prophecy.

For example, my favorite one is Christians claim that Isaiah prophesizes the coming of Jesus. But in fact, it is a quote from 3 different sources.

Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1 and Exodus 23:20, explain that it is NOT a quote from Isaiah prophesying the return of Jesus in Mark, but a misquote. Christians explain that it is only a paraphrase taken from various prophets making reference to various other subject matter, and not to Jesus.

This leads to distortion and misrepresentation. In this case, the paraphrase is just another explanation and excuse for a misquote, and to misrepresent the truth.

Exodus 23:20:-- "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared"

Malachi 3:1-- "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty"

Isaiah 40:3--"A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God".

Results in:

"It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way a voice of one calling in the desert, Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ Mark 1:2-3

The passages in your list of so-called "prophecies" make reference to a "messiah" -- they do not necessarily refer to your Jesus, as messiah just means 'king'. If the Jews wrote about a "messiah" it could refer to any king--not necessarily yours. Actually, most certainly not yours, as the Jews never have, nor do they now believe in your god.

Here is a list of MANY of the errors, distortions and misquotes--just a few from the books of Matthew and Isaiah:

Over twenty times in the gospel of Matthew, the unknown author goes out of his way to tell of prophecy fulfillment. By doing so, the author of Matthew had to misquote, misinterpret verses in his favor, take verses out of context, or simply make them up to reach his goal. Comparing what the author of Matthew wrote to the Old Testament―the Hebrew Bible; we find the following:

Matthew 1:2―15 – His list of generations does not agree with l Chronicles Ch. 1―3

Matt. 1:16 – Trying so hard to make Jesus appear to come from David's lineage that he ignored Jewish law. The Hebrew bible states that a Hebrew's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17)

Matt. 23:35 Mistakenly gave Zechariah’s father the wrong son. Zechariah was the son of Jehoiada, not Barachiah. II Chronicles 24:20――21

Matt. 27:9 – Quoted the wrong prophet ― was not Jeremiah but Zechariah

Matt. 27:9 – Book of Zechariah was never about any “potter’s field”

Matt 2.12 – Contradicts Luke about going to Egypt after Jesus’ birth.

Matt 9:9 – Becoming one of the 12 conflicts with Luke and John.

Matt 27:57-66 ― Disagrees with Mark, Luke and John at the “burial scene”

Matt Chapter 2 not verified by any other writer and not logical

Matt 2:16 – Got mixed up about Pharaoh & Herod’s Killing of the innocent babies (read the infanticide in Exodus 1:15―22 regarding Pharaoh being told of the Messiah)

Matt 2:23 – Jesus dwelt in a city called Nazareth that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, he shall be called a Nazarene”. No prophet ever said this.

Matt 23:37 ― [thou] that killest the prophets. Which prophets did the Jewish people kill?

Matt 27:51 ― And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain – event never happened

Matt 27:52 ― The graves were opened and the dead went to Jerusalem – never happened Matthew 9:9 ―The author wrote in the third person. This was unusual as no other author wrote that way. Makes one wonder if Matthew himself wrote this book.

Christians should clearly see that the author of Matthew was not inspired by the Christian god ― as such a god that is claimed to be "perfect"could not make such gross mistakes

Two things are known:

(1) Matthew, IF he was Jewish, knew very little Hebrew and did not understand the Hebrew Bible, and

(2) He knew very little about Jewish law, since he relied so much on the Greek Septuagint.

The author of Matthew was using the Septuagint 'LXX'―the Greek version of the Hebrew bible compiled in the 2nd century BCE for the Greek―speaking Jews of the Diaspora.

The Jewish Scribes and rabbis only translated the first five books of Moses in the LXX Septuagint. There is no record who wrote the rest of the Hebrew bible, presumably they were not Jews. That means that the Greeks translated Isaiah and the prophets and are responsible for the changing of the word “young woman” in the Hebrew to “virgin” in the Greek ― a blatant mistranslation.

Mathew wrote; “…from the blood of righteous Abel unto Zacharias, son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar” (23:35). According to Tanakh, it was Zechariah (Zacharias) son of Jehoiada who was killed by the Temple (ll Chronicles 24:20―21). There is no evidence in the Hebrew bible or in any other writings that Zechariah the Prophet was murdered, let alone killed in the Temple. The First Temple had already been destroyed in Zechariah's time.

When you find one or two events that are clearly not true, you end up having huge doubts as to overall reliability of this book. When you find over 20 events that are not true, altered, questionable (based upon no facts or distorted facts) or contradicts other writers, the whole book ends up being fiction or questionable as to just how truthful it is. Likewise, one will find similar untruths and distortions in the Hebrew bible (Old Testament) ― 6-day universe creation; walking talking snake; giant fish tale; stick turning to a snake; slavery verified; misogyny, bigotry etc. Both texts have proven to be unreliable.

As for proving love--I know my husband loves me by his actions. I experience his love. Nothing silly, illogical or narrow minded about that. His actions speak louder than words.

yes by gods standards, oops i forgot we are all sinners except you. i forgot you are perfect.

First of all Cameron, I have at no point even mentioned the thought that I am perfect, so drop the bullshit, sweetheart. Second of all, if you expect anyone to take your god seriously, you need to provide serious, hard evidence that your god exists. As of right now, your god has about as much clout as the Easter bunny.

I suggest you read the thread "Debunking The Bible: Genesis" on here. That will answer all of your questions. If you want us to take your book and your imaginary friend seriously, you have to provide proof that he/she/it/they exists.

As for sin, that is a term bound to your religion, and has absolutely zero meaning to me. So, allow me to rephrase your nonsensical reply.

"...ooops i forgot all chrisitans are sinners, since atheists don't waste their time with the idea of some cosmic crime when they jack off."

this proves you know absolutely nothing about christianity. so all the points you think you are making come accross extremely ignorant and arrogant.

Of course it proves whatever you want it to be, pal. Just like your bible. In your brief 2 years of study you act as if you have a better grasp on the bible than the rest of the world, just like every other christian thinks.

If you want to make claims, like me being wrong, do present evidence as to how I am wrong. According to you, the originator of an idea is not its creator. Hmm, that must mean that George Lucas didn't invent Star Wars either. Must have been Joe Peschi!

i dont know how to better explain this milo. christianity is not the old testement or the new testement. it is jesus christ. the bible is about jesus christ. christianity is the prophecy of jesus christ (old testement),

If the entire book is supposed to be about Jesus, why all the other worthless garbage then? Why the no shellfish law, or killing women and children. What does that have to do with Jesus, Cameron? Why not strictly about Jesus? Why bother with the flood, or the burning bush? Why all the hate about gays, if Leviticus doesn't matter. Also, do you realize how easy it is to lie so the prophecies are "fulfilled."

the birth, teaching, death, then resurrection of jesus christ.and then finally the ruling and judgment of jesus christ.(new testement) it is all with the underlying subject of JESUS CHRIST. thats it. that is whole point.

Then tell me, in your seemingly infinite wisdom and understanding of scripture, why does the bible contradict proven, known reality? Flat earth, age of the universe, global flood, the census by Herod, the existence of Bethlehem, the hundreds of inconsistencies amongst the 4 different books of the bible? Why did they not include the book about Jesus when he was a child into the bible? You know, the one where he killed his friend, then brought him back to life, just to prove a point. Isn't that a part of Jesus' life?

mica gets no more of my time until he can figure out what he is actually arguing against.

Now that I had time to answer to your absolutely embarrassing, childish, empty headed reply, I would like to conclude that you get no more of my time until you provide evidence that your Jesus exists, and until you learn to read and spell my fucking name properly.

If you can't read my name correctly, and write it correctly, what hope do you have of actually understanding the bible. You fail to comprehend a few paragraphs of modern English, and a common Slavic name, yet you think you mastered scripture? You claim to be a writer, when you can barely read? Please, Cameron, don't embarrass yourself further.

Cameron--after rereading the comments, I just want to point out to you that you contradicted yourself--which I failed to point out earlier.

Remember, you quoted Hebrews 10-26-27, which tells us that if a believer sins "willfully" they will see the pit of fire--no repentance. Then you go on to say that we are all sinners--every one of us!! i.e., you continue to sin "willfully."

So what is is Cameron? Jesus said to "Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect," and Hebrews 10 implies that once you have Jesus in your heart, you will no longer sin willfully, but then you go on to say you are no different than anyone else, and we are all sinners. This makes no sense at all. According to those passages, and your belief that all of humanity are a bunch of sinners--you haven't got a chance.

If you can be "perfect" as Jesus implies, then you will no longer sin "willfully" as Hebrews 10 points out.--but you do. Ahh-- you are a Paulian--not a Christian.