March 20, 2005

Terri Schiavo

by hilzoy

As I type these words, the US Congress is preparing to meet in extraordinary session to decide whether to pass a bill granting Terri Schiavo's parents the right to take her case to federal court. This is an amazing spectacle on any number of counts. But one of the most striking to me, as a bioethicist, is that so many people are talking as though Terri Schiavo is the victim of some alarming new indignity. Thus, ABC News (video clip here; 'Questioning Intentions') showed Rep. Dave Weldon saying, on the floor of the Congress, "To order the withdrawal of food and water from somebody -- it's never been done before to my knowledge." There are only two ways to take this claim: either Rep. Weldon is lying or he has not bothered to inform himself even minimally about what he's talking about. In fact, the only thing about Terri Schiavo's case that's at all unusual is the amount of attention it has received.

The basic facts of the case are well known (there's a very good account here.) In 1990, Terri Schiavo suffered cardiac arrest, probably as a result of bulimia. (If any of you have been wondering why a woman in her twenties had cardiac arrest, that seems to be the answer. The underreporting of this aspect of the case is a real missed opportunity to educate people about the consequences of serious eating disorders.) As a result of the cardiac arrest, her brain was deprived of oxygen, which caused severe brain damage.

Eight years later, after various attempts at therapy and a successful malpractice suit (based on the doctors' failure to diagnose Terri's eating disorder), Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to determine whether her feeding tube should be removed. Many press reports talk as though he just decided that it should be removed; in fact, he left that decision to the court. He and others testified that Terri Schiavo had said that she would not want to be kept alive in a condition like the one she was in; her family of origin testified that she had said that she would. The judge found (pdf) that there was 'clear and convincing evidence' that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to receive life-prolonging care in her current condition, and ordered that the feeding tube could be removed. (If you are wondering how the judge could have found 'clear and convincing evidence' given conflicting testimony, I urge you to read the pdf, which explains why the judge did not find her parents' testimony credible. In one case, for instance, they testified that she had made a remark supporting their position when she was an adult, but it turned out that she had said it when she was 11 or 12.) This was in 1998; in 2001, after this decision had been appealed as far as it could go and upheld, her feeding tube was removed for the first time.

However, the tube was reinserted after her parents filed another appeal based on the claim that they had new evidence and that there were new treatments that might help her regain consciousness. These appeals were heard and denied; again, the case was appealed as far as it could go, and upheld. Terri Schiavo's parents then challenged the constitutionality of the relevant laws, but this challenge was dismissed by a federal court. At this point, in October 2003, her feeding tube was removed for the second time. The Florida legislature then passed a law allowing Gov. Bush to issue a stay and have the feeding tube reinserted. After yet another series of appeals, this law was found to be unconstitutional by the Florida Supreme Court; this decision was appealed to the US Supreme Court, which denied review. The parents then filed various new motions all of which were denied; and on Friday Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed.

As I read this history, several things stand out. The first is that it is hard for me to see how anyone could think that Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was being removed without due consideration, since more or less every relevant aspect of it has been litigated and appealed as far as possible. Nor, as far as I can tell, is there any question about the competence of the lawyers involved: everyone seems to agree that both sides have been well represented.

The second is that there seems to be very little question about whether Terri Schiavo might ultimately recover. (Rivka at Respectful of Otters, who is a doctor, has a good post about the medical opinions offered by Terri Schiavo's parents.) As one of the court decisions in this case said (pdf; p. 7):

"Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo's brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex."

The cerebral cortex is responsible for cognition and the integration of sensation. Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex is not only dead; it has liquified. If her cerebral cortex were still there but for some reason not working, then there might be hope that she could recover. But in her case, it's gone. In order for her to recover, it would have to be literally recreated. Here, via Alas, a blog, is a scan of Terri Schiavo's brain and a healthy brain:
My understanding is that the dark bits are spinal fluid; and thus that the fact that the scan of Terri Schiavo's brain shows huge dark areas, both in the center and elsewhere, indicates that an awful lot of her brain has been replaced by spinal fluid. I am not a doctor, of course. But Rivka, who is, writes: "The amount of brain tissue missing is truly shocking." And PZ Meyers adds: "I am not a medical doctor, but I do have that Ph.D. in neuroscience (I am eminently qualified to analyze the brains of fish and insects), and that is one ghastly mess. That's not much of a brain, it's a balloon bobbing about in there." (In using these quotes, I mean no disrespect to Ms. Schiavo, for whom I have nothing but sympathy.)

***

So much for the basic facts. Why is this happening, and what are the ethical issues involved? To understand this, you need to understand three basic facts about current law.

First, in this country competent adults have the right to decline medical treatment. This is a very good thing, since many of the things doctors do to their patients would constitute assault if done against those patients' wills. It is this right that allows cancer patients to decide not to undergo that last excruciating round of chemo that would give them only a slight chance of survival, Jehovah's Witnesses to refuse the blood transfusions that they believe it would be sinful to receive, and people with painful terminal illnesses to refuse treatment for other diseases, like pneumonia, that offer them the chance of an easier death. This right is extremely important: without it, we could be subjected to serious assaults on our body without our consent, so long as some physician said that those assaults were medically necessary.

Second, courts have held that for these purposes, nutrition and hydration count as life-prolonging treatments, and thus that competent adults have the right to refuse them as well. This is also important: having a feeding tube inserted is a serious violation of a person's bodily integrity, and people have the right to refuse it. It's also a point that is often neglected in the coverage of Terri Schiavo's case. What is happening is not that a court has ordered that she be killed. If courts could order that, there would be no reason to wait for her to die; the court could simply order a lethal injection of some sort. The court has found that she would not have wanted this sort of medical treatment, and thus that it cannot be forced on her. This is completely different.

In the comments on a previous thread, in the course of a discussion about the difference between withholding treatment and killing, felixrayman wrote: "If she isn't fed, she'll be dead in a week or two. There is no substantial difference here." There is no substantial difference in the outcome of the two, in this case. Likewise, when a terminal cancer patient declines chemo, and a court upholds her right to do so, the outcome is the same as if someone shot her, since in both cases she dies. But there is a huge and important difference between what is done to produce that outcome. In the first case, the reason the patient dies is that she has decided to refuse treatment. If we deny her that right in cases in which she will die without treatment, we are denying her the right to determine what happens to her body. By contrast, if I shoot her, I have not just accepted her autonomy; I have taken matters into my own hands and killed her. As I said in another context, consent makes all the difference (and that post contains several other examples of cases in which "there is no substantial difference" in outcomes, but a very substantial difference morally.)

Of course, the obvious reply is that in the case at hand, Terri Schiavo did not ask that her feeding tube be removed. This brings me to my third point: In cases in which a patient is not competent to consent to or refuse treatment, there is a well-established way to proceed. First, you ask whether the patient has prepared a living will or an advanced directive, or has given a durable power of attorney to some other person, authorizing him or her to make decisions if the patient becomes incompetent. In this case, as often happens, there were no such documents. Second, you look around for other evidence about what the person would have wanted. That was done in this case, and the courts found "clear and convincing" evidence that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to be kept alive in her current state. If there is no such evidence, a guardian gets to decide, based on the patient's best interests.

As I noted earlier, in this case Michael Schiavo is his wife's guardian, and might have decided what she would have wanted. However, he chose instead to ask the court to consider the evidence about what she would have wanted, and to make its own evaluation. It found that she would not have wanted to be kept alive. That is: this is not a case in which anyone is proceeding in the absence of evidence about what she would have wanted, nor is it a case in which Michael Schiavo is acting only on his sense of what his wife would have wanted, without allowing a hearing for anyone else's view.

Under current law, when a person is incompetent to consent to or refuse treatment, evidence of that person's views and wishes is used to determine whether or not s/he would have consented to treatment. In Terri Schiavo's case, the courts have determined that she would not have consented. In accordance with what they have found to be her wishes, they are seeking to discontinue the treatment to which she would not have consented. That is: legally, this is a matter of letting her views about her life and her body govern the treatment she is subjected to, not a matter of anyone else's deciding whether she will live or die. What's at issue in this case is not "life"; it's patient autonomy.

It seems to me that in order to say that Terri Schiavo's feeding tube should not be removed, you have either to challenge the basic facts of the case as found by the courts, or to say that one of the three points I have just made is wrong. I don't imagine that many people will say that competent adults should not have the right to decline medical treatment. Some people may be tempted by the idea of denying that feeding and hydration are among the things competent adults should be able to decline, but if you think about the huge intrusion on people's bodily integrity and autonomy that giving the government the right to force you to have a feeding tube implanted against your will would represent, I think this view will seem less attractive.

The most plausible place to disagree, I think, is on the third point: taking evidence of an incompetent person's views and wishes to determine whether that person would have consented to treatment. Here I think it's important to bear several things in mind. First, requiring 100% certainty about someone's wishes would make it impossible to decide what to do for any incompetent patient. Suppose, for instance, that that patient left a living will: living wills are almost never detailed enough to cover all possible contingencies, and they often need to be interpreted to yield a conclusion about actual treatment decisions. (A case I sometimes use in class involves a nursing home patient who has made it clear that she does not want to be resuscitated artificially, who has a really bad reaction to a new medication and goes into shock, and who can almost certainly be immediately and completely resuscitated with an epi stick. Depending on the details, it can be pretty clear that this was not the case the patient had in mind when she asked not to be resuscitated; that she was thinking of herself having gone into a serious decline and being kept alive with tubes and then suffering cardiac arrest, not of a quick and reversible allergic reaction.)

Suppose the living will turns out to cover exactly the case at hand, so that no interpretation is needed. One might still wonder: might the patient have changed her mind after writing the living will, but never gotten around to updating it? If she didn't mention any such change of heart to anyone, that's hardly proof that none occurred. But even if, by some huge coincidence, she was discussing an exactly similar case at the very moment when she collapsed, that's not proof either. It often happens that people's views about what they would want in a given case are wrong. People think they'll be happy if they get promoted, and then find themselves just as miserable as before; they think they could never learn to live without the use of their legs, but then go on to live perfectly happy wheelchair-bound lives; they think that some medical problem would be easy to deal with, but when it actually occurs find that it completely undoes them. So knowledge of Terri Schiavo's views on this exact case at the very moment when she went into cardiac arrest would not guarantee any knowledge of what she'd want if, per impossibile, she were able to have desires now. But surely it's one's views at the time, not one's views in the past, that should dictate one's treatment.

This means that if we require 100% certainty about people's wishes in order to refrain from treating them, we will never refrain from treating any incompetent patient. (Maybe we won't refrain from treating competent patients either: after all, they could be lying.) And this in turn means that a lot of people's wishes about what medical treatments they would like to receive, and what they do and do not want done to their body, will be violated. There is, it seems to me, no getting around this point.

This might not seem significant if one thought that there was no harm that could even be compared to the harm of losing your life, where 'losing your life' does not mean 'being killed', but simply dying. I do not think this is true: there are things I would rather die than undergo, and one of them is having my fate made the object of a political circus, as Terri Schiavo's is. More importantly, though, this is not the way our legal system is currently set up. We do not act to rescue people's lives whatever the circumstances. We do not force cancer patients to undergo that one last desperate round of chemo on the grounds that it might save their lives, and that this outweighs the violation of their autonomy that forcing chemotherapy on them against their wills would represent. We place autonomy first, allowing patients to decide for themselves which treatments to undergo, even when their decisions shorten their lives. I think this is as it should be. But if one accepts this, then it's hard to see how we can also say that we should never accept evidence that an incompetent patient would choose to refuse treatment on the grounds that we might be wrong. To take that view is to protect life at the expense of patients' autonomy, which we rightly do not do.

Suppose we relax our standard somewhat and say, as felix did: we will respect living wills, but not other forms of evidence. In this case, it seems to me, one would have to explain what is so special about living wills. If, as soon as a person formed a view about being treated in a given condition, a living will automatically wrote itself, that would be one thing. But obviously this doesn't happen. Lots of people have very strong views about treatment, views that they have expressed repeatedly and in detail, but have not written a living will. It is not the least clear to me why we should not accept other people's reports about what a patient has said about relevant cases, especially since we accept witness testimony in all other legal proceedings, including those on the basis of which we sentence people to an involuntary death.

It is of course true that the credibility of a witness's statement should be carefully considered. Witnesses can lie. (And living wills can be forged.) But I don't see why, after careful examination of one or (preferably) several witnesses' statements, one could not conclude that they constituted adequate evidence of a patient's wishes. The alternative is, I think, accepting a standard of adequacy so high that almost no incompetent patient could be denied treatment. And as I said earlier, this would involve a massive denial of patient autonomy.

In Terri Schiavo's case, the statements of various witnesses were heard, considered, and evaluated for credibility. On the basis of these statements, the court found that she would not have wanted to be kept on a feeding tube. That decision was appealed as far as it could go, and upheld each time. To my mind, relying on witness statements, critically examined, as evidence of a patient's wishes is perfectly appropriate, especially since most people do not, in fact, write living wills, whether or not they have strong views on the sort of treatment they would choose to receive.

On reflection, I'm going to save what I have to say about the Congress's actions for a later post. This one is too long already. But the takehome message is: first, it's about autonomy. Second, the result in this case follows from basic facts about the way we adjudicate these cases. There is nothing novel about the case itself. Third, if you think about what would be involved in changing these basic principles, it doesn't seem very attractive.

That, I take it, is part of the reason why Congress will pass a bill narrowly targeted at this case. To say that we will not allow feeding and hydration to be withdrawn regardless of a patient's wishes, or that we will not accept testimony about incompetent patients' wishes to count as evidence, would have huge and disastrous effects for a lot of patients and their loved ones. It would also be very unpopular. So Congress is trying to avoid acting in a way that would affect any other case, however similar. This is, in my view, cynical and contemptible.

***

Update: if you are new to this site, please read this before making assumptions about what sort of blog this is.

Also, having followed a few of the referrals to this post, I think I should point out that I am one of those mysterious female bloggers you hear so much about these days.

Comments

Wow, a self-selected Internet poll, with no controls on whether people are answering truly and with a sample size of 15? And that also reduces all non-democrats and non-republicans to "independent?" That should yield some valid answers!

Had to make the decision to stop lifesaving procedures twice in my life and thank God only my sisters, and my sons were involved..does anyone really understand what a terrible time it is for the family...would Bush want someone in the room with him when it involves his loved ones? The time has come for Americans to fight for the right to their own bodies and medical decisions.

Terri's husband and parents have one very similar point in common. They each believe they are doing the most humane thing for her. How ironic. Two different points of view, but they, and everyone else, are all concerned about her ultimate welfare. There are those that believe in an afterlife, where sick bodies are made whole again. There are those that believe life should be clung to regardless of the situation. I choose to believe that both sides are really well meaning, but strongly disagree, and how sad to blame each other for not having Terri's best interests at heart. How sad not to honor each other's point of view at a time families should bond together. Yet a decision has to be made one way or the other...and either way we're playing God. Eventually we have to have faith in the time and thought that has been put into deciding Terri's fate, and understand all want the best for her. Don't criminalize her husband who agonizes over the loss of the woman he loves, or her parents who cannot say goodbye to her physical body. There is no right answer. We are only human, and I rejoice that the decision has been so hard - I would worry more if it had been made quickly either way. How hard to act on the behalf of someone who can't make decisions on their own. It seems everyone can agree on one point - the importance of making your wishes known when you can, so those you love are saved the anguish of making life and death decisions.

Terri's husband and parents have one very similar point in common. They each believe they are doing the most humane thing for her. How ironic. Two different points of view, but they, and everyone else, are all concerned about her ultimate welfare. There are those that believe in an afterlife, where sick bodies are made whole again. There are those that believe life should be clung to regardless of the situation. I choose to believe that both sides are really well meaning, but strongly disagree, and how sad to blame each other for not having Terri's best interests at heart. How sad not to honor each other's point of view at a time families should bond together. Yet a decision has to be made one way or the other...and either way we're playing God. Eventually we have to have faith in the time and thought that has been put into deciding Terri's fate, and understand all want the best for her. Don't criminalize her husband who agonizes over the loss of the woman he loves, or her parents who cannot say goodbye to her physical body. There is no right answer. We are only human, and I rejoice that the decision has been so hard - I would worry more if it had been made quickly either way. How hard to act on the behalf of someone who can't make decisions on their own. It seems everyone can agree on one point - the importance of making your wishes known when you can, so those you love are saved the anguish of making life and death decisions.

Interesting to learn that Tom DeLay's father suffered a similar fate. The family had to decide what the wishes of the patient would be, and decided that he would not want to life like that. Knowing that he has been through a tragedy like that it is weird to hear him speak about the Schiavo case and decide against the procedure.

And indeed, this thread seems to attrackt quite a new group of contributors.

dutchmarbel: yep, a whole new bunch of people. To any of you who are those new people: this is not a site where everyone thinks the same way. Please do not make assumptions about what everyone here thinks based on my post; those assumptions would almost certainly be wrong. Also, our posting rules prohibit incivility. Thanks.

why is a quack of a lawyer being able to dictate this woman's life. This lawyer claims that he has spiritual powers that allow him to talk to those who can not communicate..please ask him, where he got this power, because to force someone to die in this manner is not of God, or man...he is enjoying this...I bet that once she is dead he will do another book to make money off of her some more, and claim that Terri's soul spirit spoke to him and told him she wanted to die...for everyone's info to say that a 27 year old would have discussed dying is wrong, those who are 27 are not thinking of death...she did not know this was going to happen to her...so how can her husband say this is her wish to die...it is wrong...don't give up the fight....http://www.americandigest.org/mt-archives/005323.phphttp://www.sptimes.com/News/052501/Floridian/The_spirit_and_the_la.shtml
Felos does not mention Schiavo in Law as Spiritual Practice, but says he wants to start a second book when the case is over. He may talk about his spiritual journey with Schiavo then. For now, he is preparing for a hearing before the 2nd District Court of Appeal in Lakeland on June 25. He thinks the court will agree that her feeding tube should be removed.

That is what is necessary, he says, "to accomplish what I believe are Terri's wishes."

I also wanted to add the this country wants people to where there seat belt

Seat belt laws are favoured most by insurance companies. It's a matter of not wearing a seat belt costing other people money, not just the well-being or life of the auto passengers as individuals.
So I don't think the issues can be fairly compared.

Well, it appears one more person has failed to read the thread or educate themselves on the basic facts of the case...

ONE more person? Just one more? haha.

Gromit: Thanks for that Ralph Nader link. Just another reason I dislike Ralph Nader, despite the fact that I support the Green Party... He's apparently misinformed just like the rest of them, thinking she could be spoon fed!

pdf file“Dr. Barnhill who had testified at trial had physically examined Terri Schiavo on several occasions. He has also reviewed her records, especially on her ability to swallow. He testified that he agreed with the prognosis of the treating physician, Dr. Gambone, that there was no point in doing another swallowing study since she had not changed since the last study.
….
Dr. Barnhill testified that in his opinion attempting oral nutrition would result in aspiration with insufficient nutrition passing to the stomach to maintain her, thereby prolonging her death, if the feeding tube were withdrawn. He testified that such aspiration would lead to infection, fever, cough, and ultimately pneumonia. This would require suctioning which likely would be fatal.”

Carole Hansen: It seems everyone can agree on one point - the importance of making your wishes known when you can, so those you love are saved the anguish of making life and death decisions.

Nope, sorry, not even everyone agrees upon that!http://www.inthesetimes.com...“Many people, even conservatives, have taken the lesson from the Schiavo case that everyone should have a living will. But if religious extremists get their way, living wills may not be worth the paper they are written on.
When living will legislation first gained support in the ’70s and ’80s, the anti-abortion movement was adamantly opposed to demands for “death with dignity.” As the National Right to Life notes on its Web site (www.nrlc.org), living wills are used “to condition public acceptance of assisted suicide, mercy killing, and euthanasia.”
By and large, religious extremists lost their fight against living wills legislation. But Schiavo’s case appears to have re-energized the movement’s opposition to living wills, in the guise of opposition to euthanasia and assisted suicide.”

For the love of god can we stop talking about Terri Schiavo already? It's like Elian Gonzales all over again, will he stay or will he go? Who cares?!?! Obviously it's better if he stays (he ended up back in Cuba by the way, if anyone cares), and its better if Terri lives, but there is better news out there. Did you know there was another Earthquake in Southeast Asia? Thousands dead, blah blah, given about 1/100th the coverage of the Terri case. Did you know millions of children die of malnutrition, or what about the global trade in child sex slaves? Did you know Osama Bin Laden is still at large? Or how about the fact that millionaires pay less taxes than those below the poverty line? I'm telling you Martians could have landed in Washington and we wouldn't have heard about it at this point. And what would they say if they did land? Oh me oh my, theres a brain damaged woman, half of her family wants to keep her alive the other half wants her dead. Sounds like worthy international news to me! By the way she's one of 40,000 brain damaged people who are argued over by their families each year in the USA alone? What about Europe where Terri would have been killed already no questions asked? The Media could cover some 12 year old stepping on an ant and the nation would call for the kid to have a giant brick dropped on him. Does the term media circus mean anything anymore? How about propoganda? The nation, our government, and especially our media needs to grow the fuck up!!!

What I see here is some very intelligent people debating both sides of a coin. I am a simple mom with 3 kids, a husband and a life. I would never want to have to make the choice to remove a feeding tube from one of my children. Thankfully, Terri's case has caused my family to talk about "what if". We really have talked about all the different circumstances that we would or would not be able to accept. I am sorry that politicians seem to use Terri as a platform. I am more sorry that her parents can't let go. As for her husband, well, maybe he should have just walked away long ago and let her family deal with it. He did move on with another woman and have children. Let the past go.

I do believe that Terri may have talked about this when she was 27. Good lord, not everyone sit about under a shade tree thinking about saving the whales and the state of the government. I was married young and we talked about everything! Why? Because in everyday life, **** happens. My boyfriends brother was in a horrible car crash. He was hooked up to a ton of tubes and wires and his family pulled the plug after 18 months of no brain activity. So it makes you think, and you talk. Everyday, blue collar, hard working people do more than eat, sleep, work and have kids. They read, and educate themselfs and communicate with their family. I am no lawyer, thank god, there are folks out there that are more suited to that than me. Life happens, and so does death. Should the government have control over the right of an individual to refuse treatment? Yes and No. There are cases were a person may not be in their right mind at the time and when treated or what have you they are more themselfs and are greatful they were treated. But 15 years in a veggitative state with no chance to improve???? I think that she died long ago, only no one told her parents. I truely feel deeply for her parents, but I think they just aren't able to deal with the loss of their daughter so they just hold on. Her husband, I feel bad for him as well. If he really feels he is trying to do what is right by Terri, then he has more back bone than most. Many people would have washed their hands of it all by now. Sometimes it is the regular guy who has the answer, not the big brains. Thankfully, I have never been accused of being either,lol. Sorry, a little humor even in the worse circumstance can lighten a heavy burden. I just say a little prayer now and agian that there will be peace for Terri no matter what.

I want to know who is going to replace my tax money wasted by this stupid case.It makes me sick to think of all the money wasted on this brain dead husk.I expect my taxes to be spent in support of the war with Irak.My house plant has more right to food and water than this husk atleast a plant still has a function this brain dead thing is just taking up space of someone who needs it.

Michael Schiavo admitted on Larry King about a week ago "How should I know what Terri would want. It's what WE want". So much for Terri's wish to die. I think Terri's holding out this long (thirteen days today) shows her incredible will to live. It's so sad there are so many heartless people who want her dead.
Terri is not brain-dead. She isn't suffering from any illness. She has been alert, and trying to communicate. Her condition could have improved with therapy, according to many unbiased specialists (not the ones Michael and attorney Felos hired). Unfortunately, ever since being awarded a large court settlement, Michael has done everything possible to insure that her condition does not improve. It is obvious he has a lot to hide, and Mr. Felos & Judge Greer have a personal agenda to push.

Leda is a moron. It is people like Leda that have made what should have been a very private matter into a public circus. The woman has died physically. She died mentally and emotionally 15 years ago. Leave the husband, judge and family alone to finally get their thoughts and feelings in order. ENOUGH!!!

My heart goes out to both the parents and husband. This plight belongs to them and not those of us tearfully looking back on her last 15 years.

This woman was raised by a mother and father who loved her, that shared her life from the very beginning. It's right and good that they would only want their child to live, even prosper. This type of loss is inconceivable to most of us. I've lost on this level and do understand this pain. This is natural, but often breeds a kind of blind resentment against opposition in all forms. It's a prolonged symptom of grief that covers so many emotions.

I'm engaged and have spoken to my fiancé about our own wishes if something tragically similar had happened to one of us. I can only assume that Terri's husband spoke to her at some point in their life together while she was of sound mind and body. This topic is generally not discussed with parents, but confided between husband and wife. It's private and very personal.

It's natural those who "knew her" in love would wish her spared, but have to weigh the emotional costs of this existence over any selfish needs or influence to hang on to them. A living will would most likely have prevented this heartless display from the sidelines that will only feed their sufferring. We all care on some level. If we were honest enough with ourselves, we would've simply prayed the right thing to come, even if it's not what we wanted to hear. No matter what our outside opinions are, I believe the inevitable has come.

Despite all passionate sympathy for so-called "sides" in this matter, it's not my personal fight nor do I deserve it to be. There's only one side people, those who loved her as a daughter, a mother, or a wife. I can admit that and hope others will respect her and the family's right to grieve, heal, and eventually continue with good memories of her in their hearts. It's the rest of us that will threaten and destroy that memory if we fight or continue in our own selfish interests.

Terri taught a most valuable lesson before her passing, and her memory deserves to be respected. I wonder how many of us on the sidelines actually understood what this was? Thank you, with the heaviest of hearts...

My friend (and author), I wish I could say that you are just an idiot- in that case the injunction: "God forgive him/her for he/she knows not what he/she is doing" could magnanimously apply to you, but based on clear hints that one can find in the impressive amount of filth dispersed above, there seems to be a strong presumption that you are also a scoundrel which is not surprising because stupidity and baseness typically go hand in hand. It is even more saddening if you really are a woman (sic!)…

To come right to the point; there would be no reason for Terri Schiavo to have been in a vegetative state; if Michael Schiavo had not been beating her to the point were Terri had FRACTURED RIBS, DAMAGE TOHER PELVIC AREA, LI VERTEBRAA, SPINE, BOTH KNEES WERE BROKEN
AND BOTH ANKLES WERE ALSO BROKEN ACCORDING TO THE BONE SCAN.

There were injuries to Terri's neck that were consistant with strangulation.

In a letter faxed to Pinellas-Pasco County State Attorney Bernie McCabe, the governor said Michael Schiavo testified in a 1992 medical malpractice trial that he found his wife collapsed at 5 a.m. on Feb. 25, 1990, and he said in a 2003 television interview that he found her about 4:30 a.m. He called 911 at 5:40 a.m.

Why did it take Michael Schiavo an HOUR AND TEM MINUTES to call 911? This is a question that Judge Greer should have asked himself before giving Michael the power to decide life or death for Terri or for that matter legal guardianship of Terri

Terri Schiavo was severly brain damaged however, Terri was still a humanbeing that had a right to FOOD AND WATER. My God, at the very time Michael Schiavo was watering the grass in front of his house he was also dehydrating his wife. Now, you tell me was is wrong with this picture?

"Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay," Bush wrote. "In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome

I Feel Michael Schiavo got away with MURDER; and to make matters worse Michael got rich and Judge Greer got paid with BLOOD MONEY. Greer did not do his investigation of the Terri Schiavo case correctly; had he done so he would have seen the horrible abuse and neglect with which Terri suffered at the hands of Michael. TO FIND MORE ABOUT TERRI'S ABUSE AND NEGLECT TYPE IN THE WORDS (SAGA OF TERRI SCHIAVO)

To have Judge Greer impeach Type in the words (PETITION TO IMPEACH JUDGE GREER)

if Michael Schiavo had not been beating her to the point were Terri had FRACTURED RIBS, DAMAGE TOHER PELVIC AREA, LI VERTEBRAA, SPINE, BOTH KNEES WERE BROKEN
AND BOTH ANKLES WERE ALSO BROKEN ACCORDING TO THE BONE SCAN.

JFTR, not that I wish to encourage Ms Woodward: this statement is quite untrue. The bone scan showed no such definite information, and the autopsy provided further confirmation of the lack of definite information. There is no evidence at all that Michael Schiavo ever abused Terri Schiavo.

Further, I feel that it is not significant if, thirteen years after the event, Mr Schiavo could not recall the exact time at which he had found his wife unconscious.

it is understandable how all of you would think that terri was a braindead "piece of meat" before she was in a vegetive state she was a hard working humanbeing just like you and i...but you have to think what got her in that vegetive state??? well from what a bone scan reveiled is that terri was stragulated and had almost every bone in her body broke at the hands of her so-called loving husband... i think it is wrong to sit there and call a human being a brain dead husk...
debbie,, the fact of the matter is you are just a heartless piece of cow manuer that the world wouldn't miss if you passed away... try stopping the ignorance and think about the **** that this women went through before they pulled the plug...
15 yrs ago she walked talked and loved like you and me..
she went through hell before the "vegetive state".. a beating so bad that it broke her spinal cord which in turn broke her back and little by little all the spinal fluid went to her brain...
how would you feel to know your husband had a secret life...? Terri found out about her husbands secret life and when she asked about it he beat her almost to death... michael had been seiing and still is another woman to whom he has two children... while terri was in a veget6ive state he asked this "other woman" to marry him telling her that when Terri was dead they would be able to get married... how do we know that once he marries this women he won't do the same to her?? a leopard never changes his spots... had judge greer looked at all the evidence as would a normal judge michael schiavo would be behind bars right now, being bubbas boyfriend and probably getting fu**ed by a broomstick... but then again i also think that greer and schiavo made a deal for money.. schiavo probably paied the judge off to only see his side plus greer was getting paid off $250 per lawyer and there were four lawyers.. so all in all the judge came out with like $1,000 dollars in blood money...
point being all of you that think that michael schiavo was correct or even so much feel "bad" for him need to read up on a lot of shit because michael schiavo waited 40 to 70 minutes to call the police after his wifes so- called "collapse"... and on another level how could we forget about the past when every day there are new enlightments in the terri schiavo case and obviously gov. bush feels the same way he said and i quote" there is something fishy about Terri schiavos case"

for all of you that agree with michael schiavo you all can go to hell because before her death on march 31, 2005 at 9:05 am.. it is alleged that there where irregular amounts of insulin being given to Terri...
common sense tells you that if you give somebody too much insulin their heart will stop...
this case needs to be reopened and looked at by a judge that isn't in it for blood money....
all of you that have something sarcastic to say to anyone that feels for Terri really need to wake up and smell the coffee.. this case is drenched with murder and greed plain and simple...
terri may be dead to this world but she is now in heaven with our almighty god walking, tallking and literally flying on clouds in our lords wonderful hands

Aside the "Political" points scored, there is a primal reason for generating smoke. That is the uncomfortable need to answer a child's question such as "When did she go to heaven?" Was it 15 years ago or a couple months ago as the two halves of her brain died? Sweeping the question under the carpet with "We don't know God's ways" simply discourages thinking. The logical answer is that heaven is a figment of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is pretty common, from the delightful, to the harmful and to the tragic. Examples of each that come to mind are the magical appearance of gifts under the tree, gambling with grocery money, and seeking an "exalted place" in heaven, aka suicide bombing.

Perhaps we will realize we are more caring for our pets than we are for humans. I have taken three loved ones to a vet when everything else no longer worked. It was quick and like going to sleep, for them.

This Comment is to Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer; I hope and pray the very day you need assistence from the paramedics to save your life; the person calling 911 takes an hour and ten minutes to call; and when both of die hopefully someone will SHIT AND PISS ON YOUR FUCKEN GRAVE!!!!!!!

To have Judge Greer impeached Type in the words (PETITION TO IMPEACH JUDGE GREER)

One is that Ms Woodward's accusations against Michael Schiavo or Judge Greer are quite unfactual - drifting off into fantasy land. There is no point, I suspect, in directing her to sites where she can get factual information, since I think she has already decided to ignore them. However, there is nothing in the posting rules that says you can't post absurd nonsense, already proved untrue.

Two: her tone and choice of words are not raising the level of debate, nor inclining me to debate with her.

Second: I take that Ms. Woodward is attempting to espouse, albeit in extremely profane and (frankly) stupid terms, the position that Terri Schiavo should not have been allowed to die of starvation. That position is welcome this blog, and Ms. Woodward is not being banned for it. Rather, she is being banned for her profanity and stupidity -- the means by which she has chosen to express her (purported) beliefs, not the beliefs themselves.

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Gov. Jeb Bush said Friday that a prosecutor has agreed to investigate why Terri Schiavo collapsed 15 years ago, citing an alleged time gap between when her husband found her and when he called 911.

Bush said his request for the probe was not meant to suggest wrongdoing by Michael Schiavo. "It's a significant question that during this ordeal was never brought up," Bush told reporters.

In a statement issued by his lawyer, Schiavo called the development an outrage.

"I have consistently said over the years that I didn't wait but 'ran' to call 911 after Terri collapsed," Schiavo said in the release.

In a letter faxed to Pinellas-Pasco County State Attorney Bernie McCabe, the governor said Michael Schiavo testified in a 1992 medical malpractice trial that he found his wife collapsed at 5 a.m. on Feb. 25, 1990, and he said in a 2003 television interview that he found her about 4:30 a.m. He called 911 at 5:40 a.m.

"Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay," Bush wrote. "In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome."

McCabe was out of state Friday and couldn't immediately be reached for comment, but Bush said McCabe has agreed to his request.

On Wednesday, Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said his client didn't wait to call for help and has conceded that he confuses dates and times. He has said that if Michael Schiavo had not called 911 immediately, as Bush and others allege, Terri Schiavo would have died that day.

"There is no hour gap or other gap to the point Michael heard Terri fall and called 911," Felos said. "We've seen the baseless allegations in this case fall by the wayside one by one ... That's what I would call it, a baseless claim to perpetuate a controversy that in fact doesn't exist."

Terri Schiavo died March 31 from dehydration after her feeding tube was disconnected at her husband's request, despite years of efforts by her parents, Bush and others to keep her alive.

The governor's request followed the release Wednesday of an autopsy supporting Michael Schiavo's contention that his wife had been in a persistent vegetative state. The autopsy revealed no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused before she collapsed.

It left unanswered the question of why Terri Schiavo's heart stopped, cutting oxygen off from her brain. The autopsy showed she suffered irreversible brain damage and her brain had shrunk to half the normal size for her age.

Bobby Schindler, Schiavo's brother, said Friday his family believes more questions were raised than answered by the autopsy report and that a new legal review is appropriate.

"Anything that can shed some light on the cause of Terri's collapse is going to be welcomed by our family," he said from Bloomington, Minn., where the family is speaking at an anti-abortion convention.

But the request was immediately criticized by some lawmakers.

"Enough is enough," said Democratic Sen. Ron Klein. "I don't want to see it on TV any more, I don't want to hear politicians talk about it. Let her be at peace."

Bush acknowledged in his letter that an investigation may be difficult.

"I understand that these events took place many years ago, and that you may not be able to collect all the relevant records and physical evidence. However, Mrs. Schiavo's family deserves to know anything that can be done to determine the cause and circumstances of her collapse 15 years ago," Bush wrote. "The unanswered questions may be unanswerable, but the attempt should be made."

PS: How is that for actual factual facts (JESURGISLAC)
If 4:30 to 5:40 is not an hour and ten minutes than I don't know what is. Learn how to tell the time STUPIT.

TAMPA BAY, October 27, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Florida State Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities, has decided to launch an investigation into the spousal abuse claims of the parents of Terri Schiavo. The severely disabled Florida woman whose life was spared by an executive order by Governor Jeb Bush to halt her court-ordered starvation, has, according to experts, sustained injuries consistent with abuse.

Michael Schiavo, Terri's estranged husband, who has been in a long-fought court battle with Terri's parents to end her life, fuelled suspicions of abuse when he sought and was granted a court order that Terri's remains would be cremated immediately following her death. Terri's parents, the Schindlers, were requesting an autopsy.

Other factors pointing to abuse include:

- Testimony of nurses who looked after Terri indicated that Michael was verbally abusive to Terri and may have attempted to kill her by insulin injection and attempts to induce pneumonia by turning the thermostat in her room to 64 degrees.

- Michael Baden, one of the most acclaimed forensic experts in North America, in an interview on Fox News National Television broadcast Saturday said Terri's bone scan indicates that Terri's injuries are not consistent with the suggested explanation of a heart attack or potassium imbalance. He said they are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating and would warrant an immediate investigation.

- Dr. William Hammesfahr, Nobel prize nominee and neurologist, testified that Terri's neck injuries are consistent with only one type of injury: that of strangulation.

Commenting on the case, Alex Schadenberg of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition said, "It would come as no surprise to me that she had been abused previous to her disability, knowing that since1993 she has received continuous abuse by being denied basic medical care, visitation of loved ones, religious visits, and any form of rehabilitation."

Schadenberg warned however that the practice of euthanasia by withdrawal of nutrition and hydration from people who are not otherwise dying is common both in the United States and Canada. He pointed out that the argumentation around the case is not addressing the central point that nutrition and hydration should not be considered medical treatment. He noted that a 1990 U.S. Supreme Court decision wrongly allowed nutrition and hydration to be considered medical treatment.

In response to the six-day denial of food and fluids to Terri Schindler-Schiavo, the National Right to Life Committee is calling on state legislatures throughout the nation to move to protect people with disabilities from being denied food and fluids. The organization has issued a "Model Starvation and Dehydration of Persons with Disabilities Prevention Act."

Terri's supporters have also asked pro-lifers to encourage AARP to intervene to save Terri's life and not against it: flaarp@aarp.org

See also
Media 'getting it wrong' on Terri Schiavo story
Press erroneously report she's 'comatose,' doctors also dispute vegetative-state ruling

** People who are aware of the truth are calling in to radio and television stations insisting that they correct the misinformation. For example, Toronto News radio station 680 was reporting last week that Shiavo was in a persistive vegetative state. LifeSite called to say that that was not correct. The news room immediately acknowledged the error and corrected it. This would not have happened had no one called.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35270

hello i have noticed that all of you have been sarcastic with mrs. woodward..
i myself believe that mrs. woodward would have good reason to feel the way she does for the simple fact that if you go to the websites and hear the stuff that she heard including the fact that there are nurses that took care of Terri stated that mr. schiavo always told the nurses to leave and also her family and there after they found obscence amounts of insulin injections were the nurses had no explanation for them and also 5 unexplainable needle marks on her arm..
and all the people that say that the time frame is ludacris are mistaken in my belief for the simple fact that jeb bush feels the same way as Mrs. Woodward does...
now, people just think jeb bush the governor of florida is getting an investigation going for the simple reason that mr schiavo who everybody thinks is mr perfect in this case waited an hour and 10 min. to call 911 after the collapse of his wife as stated in his malpractice lawsuit hearing.. his wife collapsed at 4:30 and schiavo didn't make that important phone call until 5:40 there is proof of that on websites.. he (mr. schiavo ) stated two different times at two different hearings..
point being that too much time lapsed in between the collapse and the 911 call...
i feel that all of you should go back and read up on the facts before you get sarcastic with the proof that mrs. woodward posts on this blog... with all honesty i do see why you would think that mr. schiavo is innocent , but the proof at hand is in the pudding ..
now i know that i'm going to get sarcastic remarks for this posting but i am not trying to be mean or disagreeable about your beliefs.. just hear me out and go to the important missing pieces that obviously none of you have heard for Terri's case... i apologize for any inconvience on my part but i just think that all of you need to get more informed before any sarcastic, unnecessary remarks toward mrs. woodward...
on that level please don't ban mrs. woodward for speaking her beliefs in this case for the simple fact that we all have our own beliefs on the Terri schiavo case..
and if i'm not mistaken somebody in this blog referred to terri as a "piece of meat" stating he was tired of hearing about the case and told all of us to grow the **** up...
i think you all are being alittle hypocritical in the profanity statement because this gentleman used profanity and my question is >why isn't he banned for the use of provacitive words ....
in my own opinion Terri WAS NOT a "piece of meat" or a dead beat husk as debbie stated.
she was a human being problems or no problems and anyone that downs her for that have to live in her shoes to know the torment that this poor soul went through...
there are people dying of all types of things and these people have a chance to recuperate..
Terri wasn't given that option..
her option was ripped away from her at the blink of an eye and all you have to say is that this is what she would have wanted.. bullcrap
in all reality we as the onlookers of this case in all reality DO NOT know what her real wants were..
i strongly believe that she wanted too live and the only people to know the real truth are mr. schiavo and god almighty..
every thing you do to somebody comes back at you ten fold so if mr. schiavo really did plot to kill his wife very soon his life will fall apart and we will all be witnesses to this..
you and i arenot promised tomorrow so why do we live fighting like children.. we all need to stick together no matter if a statement to you is false or true.. this blog is open to the public and all their beliefs, fact or false..
so the only thing i have left to say is let's all stop being sarcastic and let's try to be more understanding of not only people's thoughts , but their feelings asd well..
to call someone stupid is unnecessary and uncalled for especially when their beliefs ring true... i'm not trying to take anyone's side in this matter just saying how i feel about your actions as humanbeings...
we all have minds of our own, beliefs of our own and last but not least, lives of our own...
it would be wrong for me to put you down for your beliefs so don't do it too others
thanks a million
jennifer

I don't care about Michael Schiavo. I care about congressional overreach. This was clearly a case of the Federal Government overstepping its boundaries, and clearly a case of people engaging in the "media circus" method of settling disputes. Neither is something any decent conservative should have any truck with, and it's a shame that the Republican party has so thoroughly sold its soul to the splinter of American society which places wild, shouting rhetoric over calm, considered discussion at the lowest practicable level of government interference.

every thing you do to somebody comes back at you ten fold so if mr. schiavo really did plot to kill his wife very soon his life will fall apart and we will all be witnesses to this..

And if Mr. Schiavo's life does not completely fall apart in the next few weeks, can we take it that maybe God almighty doesn't think he "plotted" to kill his wife? Or maybe that in fact what Mr. Schiavo did was God's will?

God almighty is a mercful god; he would not have wanted Terri to die an such a painful way.

Death by starvation and dehydration is a horrible way to die. (HER IS THE PROOF)

The study drew a distinction between MCS and Persistent Vegetative State (PVS), but the distinction is not a reliable one. In a New York Times article, Dr. Joseph Fins mentioned research indicating a 30% misdiagnosis rate of PVS, indicating that nearly a third of persons diagnosed in PVS are actually in "minimally conscious state." Fins is chief of the medical ethics division of New York Presbyterian Hospital-Weill Cornell Medical Center.

Even with this technology, there will probably still be mistakes. But at least it will be the first step in reducing the number of conscious people dying from hunger and thirst in hospitals and nursing homes, aware of every minute and unable to cry out that they are awake Dr. David Stevens, who says most so-called experts have never seen someone die under such circumstances.
"Unfortunately, having worked for 13 years in Africa, where the most common cause of death in children is dehydration from gastroenteritis, I have seen hundreds if not thousands of patients with dehydration and some of them so far gone, that despite resuscitation attempts, they died."

Stevens, who represents a group of 17,000 physicians, explained what happens with starvation:

As dehydration begins, there is extreme thirst, dry mouth and thick saliva. The patient becomes dizzy, faint and unable to stand or sit; has severe cramping in the arms and legs as the sodium and potassium concentrations in the body goes up as fluids go down. In misery, the patient tries to cry but there are no tears. The patient experiences severe abdominal cramps, nausea and dry-heaving as the stomach and intestines dry out.

By now the skin and lips are cracking and the tongue is swollen. The nose may bleed as the mucous membranes dry out and break down. The skin loses elasticity, thins and wrinkles. The hands and feet become cold as the remaining fluids in the circulatory system are shunted to the vital organs in an attempt to stay alive. The person stops urinating and has severe headaches as their brain shrinks from lack of fluids. The patient becomes anxious but then gets progressively more lethargic.

Some patients have hallucinations and seizures as their body chemistry becomes even more imbalanced. This proceeds to coma before death occrs. The final event as the blood pressure becomes almost undetectable is a major heart arrhythmia that stops the heart from pumping.

Even, if it was Terri's time to die; GOD ALMIGHTY would not have wanted Terri to die the way in which she did.

To find out more about Terri; and what she went through and also the bone scan go to (THE SAGA OF TERRI SCHIAVO)

Well, I'm reminded to write more notes about what kind of state I'd not be willing to live in and about who I'd like to make decisions for me. I'll get those notorized tomorrow. [Or rather on Tuesday, when things open back up.] Not such a bad thing.

hi my name IS jennifer roberts and i don't feel that it is right for you all to be dogging mrs.woodwards statements..
there is no sockpuppets in this blog or maybe there is the critisizing ones that won't take a minute to look at the facts before putting someones true feelings down...
if your so quick to think that catherine is wrong why don't you stop your reteric blabbing and look into the case of Terri Schiavo at the site called saga of terri schiavo...
you'll soon be sticking your own foot in your mouths...
i believe on whatever blog that all persons have a right to speak they're opinion without the whole blog downing thery're beliefs...
in some aspects this is a free country and we have a right to enter whatever blog we want to whether you like it or not..
stop being a bunch of hypocrits and start listening to what people have to say because just maybe they are right about what they are talking about.. we need to be more understanding of peoples feelings.. cuz' in one way or another we are all hypocrits in some forms ...
we already have enough war going on let's not have a war of the machines, too..
these blogs are meant for your opinions including catherine's and mine so whatever you don't like who cares some of us agree with mrs. woodward and some of us don't, afterall this IS an opinion poll where all opinions are welcome...
stop the hatred already this is nuts...
question being
"can't we all just get along" to quote rodney king

Ms. Woodward/Roberts, blogs aren't actually public opinion polls. This here blog is operated and maintained by a group of people who pay bandwidth fees and retain the right to boot inappropriate commentors off threads as they see fit. (Did you notice the posting rules or the banning policy?)

Catherine Woodward: For your information Jennifer I are friends and she live in the next house from me.

I'm sure your explanation for why she is using your name in her email address will be as compelling as your as-of-yet-unarticulated explanation for how Terri was really kept from standing or sitting up by the dehydration rather than by the fact that significant portions of her brain were liquified rendering her incapable of doing either of those things for over a decade prior.

Here are affidavits of three former nurses / caretakers of Terri Schiavo, relating their horror at the abusive treatment and lack of treatment regarding Terri's care.

NO RESUSCITATION (if needed);

NO ANTIBIOTICS FOR URINARY TRACT INFECTIONS!

NO REHABILITATION OF ANY KIND, INCLUDING RANGE OF MOTION AND STIMULATION!

NEVER ALLOWED TO LEAVE HER ROOM FOR FRESH AIR AND SUNSHINE!

APPARENT INSULIN REACTIONS AFTER MICHAEL'S VISITS (she is not diabetic)!

MORE! and MORE! and MORE!, all under the ORDERS OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO, the husband who convinced a jury that their large award would allow him to take her home and care for her for the rest of his life. His 'fiance' with whom he's lived for seven years is expecting their second child.

He was heard on a news broadcast saying Terri has received rehabilitation therapy for 13 years. He's received death threats and has temporarily moved from his present address. I wonder if Michael Schiavo will be able to sleep again? Or leave his home without a body guard? If something happened to him, who would get what's left of Terri's medical fund? His new wife? or the STATE? Doubtful he'll ever really feel safe or comfortable again, wondering. . .

Terri is bathed in the Light of God, the Love of God, the Presence of God, and the Protection of God. Hold her in your mind and heart; in your Love. -- Jackie -- Saturday, October 18th, 2003

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as extremely odd.

5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him.

Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as "This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing.

Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.

Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member.

Other statements which I recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift.

Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI [urinary tract infection]or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like, "Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!" and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it.

This happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have any way of knowing for sure.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I've said, and other patients, too.

There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as "They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact that it didn't seem to attract any attention.

She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.)

Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.

The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this 29 day of August, 2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida's driver's license as identification, and who did take an oath.

Notary Public

My commission expires

=========================================

CAROLYN JOHNSON, CNA

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS

AFFIDAVIT

_________

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CAROLYN JOHNSON who being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Carolyn Johnson, I am over the age of 18 years and make this statement on personal information.

2. I used to work at Sabal Palms nursing home in Largo, for a period of about two years. I actually was employed by a nursing agency and was placed at Sabal Palms as a Certified Nursing Assistant (CNA). I believe the events related here occurred in about 1993.

3. During this assignment I took care of Terri Schiavo several times. The first time I saw her my duties were being explained to me by the nurse on duty. Terri Schiavo was lying in bed. Another patient, also a young woman about the same age and in the same condition, was sitting up in a chair, with a drink cup and straw in front of her.

4. I asked why Terri was not up in a chair, too. I learned, as part of my training, that there was a family dispute and that the husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terri. This surprised me, as I did not think a guardian could go against a doctor's orders like that, but I was assured that a guardian could and that this guardian had gone against Terri's doctor's orders.

5. No one was allowed to just go in and see Terri. Michael had a visitors list. We all knew that we would lose our jobs if we did not do exactly what Michael said to do.

6. I remember seeing Michael Schiavo only once the entire time I worked at Sabal Palms, but we were all aware that Terri was not to be given any kind of rehabilitative help, per his instructions. Once, I wanted to put a cloth in Terri's hand to keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted to do this, as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of rehabilitation.

7. This entire experience made me look hard at nursing homes. After about two years, I quit this job, because I was so disillusioned with the way Terri was treated. Someone somewhere along the way should have reported this.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

Carolyn Johnson, Affiant

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 28 day of August, 2003, by Carolyn Johnson who produced a Florida drivers license as identification.

Notary Public

My commission expires

===================================

HEIDI LAW, CNA

AFFIDAVIT

_________

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared HEIDI LAW who

being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Heidi Law, I am over the age of 18 years, and make this statement on personal information.

2. I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant at the Palm Gardens nursing home from March, 1997 to mid-summer of 1997. While I was employed at Palm Gardens, occasionally I took care of Theresa Schiavo. Generally, I worked the 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. shift, but occasionally also would work a double shift, until 7 a.m. the following morning.

3. At Palm Gardens, most of the patient care was provided by the CNAs, so I was in a good position to judge Terri's condition and observe her reactions. Terri was noticeable, because she was the youngest patient at Palm Gardens.

4. I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them. Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and Olga would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so. We usually did this behind closed doors, we were so fearful of being caught. Our hearts would race and we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times.

5. Terri had very definite likes and dislikes. Olga and I used to call Terri "Fancy Pants," because she was so particular about certain things. She just adored her baths, and was so happy afterward when she was all clean, smelling sweet from the lotion her mother provided, and wearing the soft nightgowns her mother laundered for her. Terri definitely did not like the taste of the teeth-cleaning swabs or the mouthwash we used. She liked to have her hair combed. She did not like being tucked in, and especially hated it if her legs were tightly tucked. You would always tell when Terri had a bowel movement, as she seem agitated and would sort of "scoot" to get away from it.

6. Every day, Terri was gotten up after lunch and sat in a chair all afternoon. When Terri was in bed, she very much preferred to lie on her right side and look out the window. We always said that she was watching for her mother. It was very obvious that her mother was her favorite person in the whole world.

7. I worked side-by-side with another CNA named Olga and could tell that she and Terri were especially close. Olga took a definite personal interest in Terri, and Terri responded to her. I could tell that Terri was very satisfied and happy with Olga's attentions to her.

8. When Olga was talking with Terri, Terri would follow Olga with her eyes. I have no doubt in my mind that Terri understood what Olga was saying to her. I could tell a definite difference between the way Terri responded to Olga and the way she reacted to me, until she got used to my taking care of her. Initially, she "clammed up" with me, the way she would with anyone she did not know or was not familiar or comfortable with. It took about the fourth or fifth time taking care of her alone, without Olga, that Terri became relaxed and cooperative and non-resistant with me.

9. Terri reacted very well to seeing a picture of her mother, which was in her room. Many times when I came on duty it would be lying face down where she could not see it.

10. At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag. Olga and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael.

11. On one occasion Michael Schiavo arrived with his girlfriend, and they entered Terri's room together. I heard Michael tell his girlfriend that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and was dying. After they left, Olga told me that Terri was extremely agitated and upset, and wouldn't react to anyone. When she was upset, which was usually the case after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours. We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left.

12. In the past, I have taken care of comatose patients, including those in a persistent vegetative state. While it is true that those patients will flinch or make sounds occasionally, they don't do it as a reaction to someone on a constant basis who is taking care of them, the way I saw Terri do.

13. I witnessed a priest visiting Terri a couple of times. Terri would become quiet when he prayed with her. She couldn't bow her head because of her stiff neck, but she would still try. During the prayer, she would keep her eyes closed, opening them afterward. She laughed at jokes he told her. I definitely know that Terri "is in there."

14. The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a "Do Not Resuscitate" order had been put on Terri's chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings.

15. During the time I cared for Terri, she formed words. I have heard her say "mommy" from time to time, and "momma," and she also said "help me" a number of times. She would frequently make noises like she was trying to talk. Other staff members talked about her verbalizations.

16. Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn't trust Michael. When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and some times had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. It would take much more time and effort than usual to work her hands open to clean her palms.

17. I was told by supervisory staff that Michael was Terri's legal guardian, and that it didn't matter what the parents or the doctors or nurses wanted, just do what Michael told you to do or you will lose your job. Michael would override the orders of the doctors and nurses to make sure Terri got no treatment. Among the things that Terri was deprived of by Michael's orders were any kind of testing, dental care or stimulation.

I was ordered by my supervisors to limit my time with Terri. I recall telling my supervisor that Terri seemed abnormally warm to the touch. I was told to pull her covers down, rather than to take her temperature.

As far as I know, Terri never left her room. The only stimulation she had was looking out the window and watching things, and the radio, which Michael insisted be left on one particular station. She had a television, and there was a sign below it saying not to change the channel. This was because of Michael's orders.

18. As a CNA, I wanted every piece of information I could get about my patients. I never had access to medical records as a CNA, but it was part of my job duties to write my observations down on sheets of paper, which I turned over to the nurse at the nurses station for inclusion in the patients charts. In the case of Terri Schiavo, I felt that my notes were thrown out without even being read. There were trash cans at the nurses stations that we were supposed to empty each shift, and I often saw the notes in them. I made extensive notes and listed all of Terri's behaviors, but there was never any apparent follow up consistent with her responsiveness.

19. I discussed this situation with other personnel at Palm Gardens, particularly with Olga, and another CNA, an older black man named Ewan Morris. We all discussed the fact that we could be fired for reporting that Terri was responsive, and especially for giving her treatment. The advice among the staff was "don't do nothin', don't see nothin' and don't say nothin'." It was particularly distressing that we always had to be afraid that if Michael got upset, he would take his anger out on Terri.

20. I recall an incident when Olga became very upset because Terri started to get a sore spot, because it might lead to a bedsore. Michael was told about it but didn't seem to care. he didn't complain about it at all, in fact, saying "she doesn't know the difference." When Terri would get a UTI or was sick, Michael's mood would improve.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

Heidi Law, Affiant

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 30th day of August, 2003, by HEIDI LAW, who produced a Florida Driver's License as identification.

Catherine Woodward: Because our server is having problems, I can't go in and either close comments or ban your new IP addresses. (The banning was not for disagreeing with anyone -- we always disagree amongst ourselves -- but for incivility and profanity, which violate the posting rules.

Having already been banned, the decent thing would be to take your tirades somewhere else. Start your own weblog. Waste other people's bandwidth by posting hugely long excerpts when a mere link would do. Most of us are already quite familiar with the affadavits and other documents on this case, and your pasting them adds nothing.

If you're not interested in doing the decent thing, though, I suppose there's nothing to do but wait until Typepad fixes itself, and we can do for you what, apparently, you lack either the politeness or the self-control to do for yourself.

all of you are a bunch of freakin' assholes with your smart comments and your oh,i know it all bullshit.. catherine is talking from facts not her asshole... the affidavits that she mentioned are from the website the saga of terri schiavo..
you all need to grow the **** up and put a sock in it...
oh i forgot that is impossible because all of you have big heads and all of you wanna act like you know it all...
sorry to say that you as well as myself are not perfect. if god made the world perfect there wouldn't be dickheads like you and hypocrits like others...
i trully believe you get hardons putting other people down..
well you can stick your assanine comments and beliefs where the sun don't shine because this blog is full of preppy dick weeds that have nothing better to do then to put other peoples comments down..
take your asshole opinions and stick them in your ass

all of you are a bunch of freakin' assholes with your smart comments and your oh,i know it all bullshit.. catherine is talking from facts not her asshole... the affidavits that she mentioned are from the website the saga of terri schiavo..
you all need to grow the **** up and put a sock in it...
oh i forgot that is impossible because all of you have big heads and all of you wanna act like you know it all...
sorry to say that you as well as myself are not perfect. if god made the world perfect there wouldn't be dickheads like you and hypocrits like others...
i trully believe you get hardons putting other people down..
well you can stick your assanine comments and beliefs where the sun don't shine because this blog is full of preppy dick weeds that have nothing better to do then to put other peoples comments down..
take your asshole opinions and stick them in your ass

the only reason you banned miss woodward is probably because hilzoy can't handle the fact that actually a women beat him by truth and not fighting
or as the saying goes beat him to the punch and now all he is doing is retaliating in an unneccasary fashion he's 30 going on two ah, wanna cookie little boy?

the only reason you banned miss woodward is probably because hilzoy can't handle the fact that actually a women beat him by truth and not fighting
or as the saying goes beat him to the punch and now all he is doing is retaliating in an unneccasary fashion he's 30 going on two ah, wanna cookie little boy?

this blog is full of assanine dweebs that need to read up on the facts...
you know what this blog is not worth the sweat off our assholes ban me for all i care i'd rather be banned then to see a bunch of hypocrits badmouthing our every move

By the way, had you noticed that you seem to be confused about whether your "friend" or "next door neighbor" is Miss or Mrs Woodward? She's "mrs.woodward" in your July 3, 2005 02:11 PM comment, but "miss woodward" in your July 3, 2005 07:15 PM comment.

It always helps when running a sock puppet to be consistent about whether your sock puppet is married or not.

the only reason you banned miss woodward is probably because hilzoy can't handle the fact that actually a women beat him by truth and not fighting
or as the saying goes beat him to the punch and now all he is doing is retaliating in an unneccasary fashion he's 30 going on two ah, wanna cookie little boy?