(18-03-2017 10:28 PM)Astreja Wrote: I've been in a lot of crises. I've never prayed for help. I was too busy extricating myself from the crisis.

Lol! And guess what. Theists are also busy extricating themselves from crises, and on top of it they are distracted by the need to pray. Beyond that, they are conditioned to not give themselves credit for their own self-mastery because if they manage to get out of whatever mess they are in, they are conditioned to associate that result with god's intervention because of prayer.

Self-ratifying nonsense is SUCH a burden in a crisis. I can tell you that from personal experience. Things are MUCH better without it.

> My father was a highly-skilled tool engineer and clever businessman. He started his own Tool & Die business in the basement and was worth several million dollars when he died. And yet, he attributed all his success to being a faithful, church-going Christian.

(19-03-2017 05:35 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: > My father was a highly-skilled tool engineer and clever businessman. He started his own Tool & Die business in the basement and was worth several million dollars when he died. And yet, he attributed all his success to being a faithful, church-going Christian.

As a fundamentalist I was heavily conditioned to reflexively avoid any public credit for my own efforts, because that was not "giving all glory to god" and was equated with boastful pride. One lone pastor I sat under pointed out that the verse that says "a man should not think more highly of himself than he ought" can be literally translated "a man should have a sane self-estimation" and that this allowed for accepting rational credit for one's own efforts so long as you realize your very abilities come from god ultimately. But this was the beginning of the end for me of "giving glory to god" because I saw the circularity of the argument, and I saw the rampant self-abnegation and faux humility all around me. People KNEW they had worked hard for something, but couldn't say it or acknowledge it. It was patently dishonest and hypocritical.

Taking healthy self-esteem from things you earn by your own efforts is not even remotely the same thing as being an asshole self-promoter. But as a believer we could not see that.

It should be noted that the figure for atheists in dimaniac's linked graph are not Pew Research numbers, but as raw data (uncleaned) provided to them by CARA (Center for Applied Research in The Apostolate) which is a Catholic religious organisation based in Washington DC.

(18-03-2017 12:14 PM)Jokurix Wrote: "Atheists become believers when they're in moments of distress. For example, an atheist will start questioning if God really exists and even become a believer when he's about to die."

(18-03-2017 11:54 PM)Robvalue Wrote: I've prayed twice in my life, I think. Once when I was a nervous wreck of a teenager, over getting in trouble at school for the first time ever. I prayed to "whoever was listening" to not let the teachers be too mean to me.

Much later, just so I could say I've done it, I prayed again to whoever is listening for world peace and an end to suffering.

That's as far as my religious career is ever going to go, unless my mind stops working properly. I guess such vultures would even take dementia patients converting as a win.

(18-03-2017 03:43 PM)mordant Wrote: Consider someone who grew up ignorant of religion, who had never even considered belief in any deities, who had led a fairly charmed life and then suddenly runs into some horrific tragedy, and then at this vulnerable moment a kindly believer offers the faux comfort of their faith-based beliefs. I would almost be surprised if such a person did NOT convert, particularly if they are prone to be easily guilted and such.

But that is not a description of most atheists.

From that chart, one may clearly conclude that 70% of those raised as atheists go on to become Mormons.

I do know that for a fact, personally, as many of you here well know. An atheist can convert to a believer. Of course how would you prove a thing like that to another atheist? You really can't. They generally just assume you lost your shit and quitely/ politely play along to get along from there. People do, at very least, mentally note ones own actions and words though.