If A&M was still in the Big 12 rather then the SEC I dont think Manziel would have even been invited to the ceremony. And in case you cant tell... yes, i'm a little bit bitter about him winning (even though i've known since the Alabama game that he would.)

Compare Manziel's numbers to every other Heisman winning QB out of the SEC over the years. He beats them pretty badly in a few key areas, and he did that as a FRESHMAN. This wasn't like he stepped into a juggernaut of a team either. A&M is always up and down, and he came in and got progressively better as the year went on, just as RG3 did last year. You can't overlook what he did. There probably isn't a team I dislike more than Texas A&M, but I can't deny that this kid was a one man show. He didn't have the support staff that guys like Mariota had, or the coaching, or talent surrounding him. This was supposed to be a very down year for them, and he came out and lit it up. He's a real phenom and as cool of a freshman as I've seen in quite some time, at a much more difficult position to play than WR or RB.

Carmon1274 wrote:He had 3 picks and 0 TD against LSU and don't know much about college football heisman stuff but why didn't geno smith get invited ?

Because his defense sucks. Which is a stupid reason not to get considered for a Heisman, but I really think thats the reason. If the award was given half way thru the season though he would have been a shoe in to win it. he's another guy that i would rather have as my teams QB then Manziel. He didnt even end up in the top 10 though, so its a good thing he wasnt invited.

I'm glad Manziel won from that group. Mariota should have been nominated though. It makes no sense for Klein to be a finalist and not Mariota. It's one of the lame things about any awards process. If not for an overtime loss to a very tough Stanford team, Oregon is #1 and Mariota is almost certainly a finalist (and maybe the winner) in that scenario.

Also, Braxton Miller was snubbed horribly as well. Should mention that too. It's kind of insulting that some of the best Heisman candidates in the country were not even finalists, which is even worse since they only had 3 options this year instead of the usual 5-6.

kearly wrote:I'm glad Manziel won from that group. Mariota should have been nominated though. It makes no sense for Klein to be a finalist and not Mariota. It's one of the lame things about any awards process. If not for an overtime loss to a very tough Stanford team, Oregon is #1 and Mariota is almost certainly a finalist (and maybe the winner) in that scenario.

Also, Braxton Miller was snubbed horribly as well. Should mention that too. It's kind of insulting that some of the best Heisman candidates in the country were not even finalists, which is even worse since they only had 3 options this year instead of the usual 5-6.

I think the reason Klein made it is because he basically IS K State's football team. Take him away and I bet they have a losing record. Even though I think Mariota is a better QB then Klein, if you take him away the Ducks still probably only have 2 or maybe 3 losses. I thought Barner deserved it more then Mariota this year but the Ducks spread the glory around a little bit too much to have one guy be the Heisman focal point. . Next year could be Mariota's year as our RB's will be pretty young adn I think we might be more of a throw first team then we've been in recent seasons.

I think this was a really down year for the Heisman. Manziel has the numbers i just dont see him as a GREAT qb for some reason. My final 3 probably would have been Marquise Lee, Geno Smith and Klein. I dont think I ever saw a single snap from Braxton Miller, so I cant really judge him.

Overall I think the Heisman is not what it used to be. Seems to be pretty much just a hype award these days. I personally think the other awards like the Doak Walker award, the Biletnikoff award, etc are more legitimate and prestigious.

SharkHawk wrote:Compare Manziel's numbers to every other Heisman winning QB out of the SEC over the years. He beats them pretty badly in a few key areas, and he did that as a FRESHMAN. This wasn't like he stepped into a juggernaut of a team either. A&M is always up and down, and he came in and got progressively better as the year went on, just as RG3 did last year. You can't overlook what he did. There probably isn't a team I dislike more than Texas A&M, but I can't deny that this kid was a one man show. He didn't have the support staff that guys like Mariota had, or the coaching, or talent surrounding him. This was supposed to be a very down year for them, and he came out and lit it up. He's a real phenom and as cool of a freshman as I've seen in quite some time, at a much more difficult position to play than WR or RB.

Good points. I'm not saying this as a knock on Mariota, but he's a mechanical QB at this point. He's very good within the strict confines of Kelly's offense, and that has allowed him to get away with questionable decisions at times. His rushing offense and read option scheme make his life much easier, not to mention that the playbook for Mariota is very simple and easy to pick up.

By contrast, Manziel is a point guard at QB who makes improvised plays in real time, which is a very rare skill for college QBs. He doesn't need structure to be his best. In fact, he seems deadliest when allowed to improvise. And that's not even getting into the leadership aspect. As a leader, Manziel is Tebow-esque. He's the best example of a "tilt the field" QB I've ever seen, a guy that makes his whole team play better because they all believe he can will them to a victory in any situation. I think Manziel's situation right now is a little like Wilson's at NC State- if he were to transfer in year 4 and go to a major top ranked school I could see him having a scary final season just like Wilson did.

SEC FAN wrote:Cool, I'm glad he won it. I think I got too wrapped up in the Te'o story. I didn't watch the show but did they bring up Johnny Footballs crappy game against LSU?

I dont think it was even acknowledged. But thats pretty much the usual, they tend to focus on the positives and not look at the negatives for all of the contenders. And on the show itself they tend to look at more of the human stories of the guys rather then the on the field stuff.

The most surprising part of the show to me was that they mentioned that Collin Klein never even kissed his wife before their wedding day. I call b.s. on that.

First of all let me make it very clear that i'm not saying Mariota should have won the Heisman, i wouldnt have even put him in my top 5 if I had a vote. I'm just saying that he's a better QB.

Manziel had 88 more pass attempts then Mariota. But Mariota had 6 more TD's (30 to 24). Mariota had a 5:1 Td/Int ratio while Manziel's was 3:1. Mariota had a slightly higher completion percentage while Manziel had a slightly higher average yards per completion. Mariota's QB rating was 10 points higher.

Manziel had 96 more rushing attempts then Mariota. But Mariota averaged 7.04 on his rush attempts while Manziel averaged 6.46. Manziel did have a huge advantage in rushing Tds: 19 to 4.

I would argue that Manziel had a much better offensive line and slightly better receiving core. Mariota had the advantage of a much better running game (which is why he had so many fewer rushing tds) and better overall offensive system.

It seems clear to me that the only reason Manziel had better numbers is because he had greatly more opportunity. Mariota was the victim of his own success. He, and his teammates were so good in the first half of games that he didnt get the chance to build up stats in the 2nd halves on many occasions.

I would also argue that Mariota makes his teammates better by sticking with the play and trusting the play and only takes off as a last option, rather then Manziel who takes off at the first sign of trouble and does the rest on his own. Mariota is Russell Wilson, Manziel is a young Michael Vick. Both great and dynamic players but which would you rather have running your team?

One final stat. Against top 25 opponents Mariota threw for 12 td's and 3 interceptions with a record of 4-1. Against top 25 opponents Manziel had 5 td's and 4 int's with a 2-2 record.

And a question for Kearly, every time you talk about Mariota you mention questionable decision making, can you point to an example? (not arguiing, just trying to have a friendly debate and trying to understand).

p.s. I promise this will be my last Mariota post until next season, cuz i'm even annoying myself with them.

I thought Te'o should've won it among the three. Marquis Lee was the best player eligible to win the Heisman(The people that vote on these things dont pay attention to the trenches so I disregard all the studs there as eligible). Manziel is a hell of a player, he's a system guy with a good story and the media ran with it. Te'o was a straight up football player, the heart and soul of an undefeated team. But, he plays defense, and the assclowns that do this think its all about the qb and the running backs.

I think, certain special occasions excluded, that the Heisman hasn't caught up in recent years to the growing devaluing of running backs.

The Heisman is for a transcendent player, and I think this year, the field was lacking in that regard. You want to tell your grandkids about the guys who won the Heisman. Will I do that about Johnny football? Who knows? But guys like Mark Ingram, Jason White and Troy Smith just don't apply. You know who did this year? Marquis Lee. I will tell my grandkids about that stud. Johnny football? Meh, we'll see.

First of all let me make it very clear that i'm not saying Mariota should have won the Heisman, i wouldnt have even put him in my top 5 if I had a vote. I'm just saying that he's a better QB.

Manziel had 88 more pass attempts then Mariota. But Mariota had 6 more TD's (30 to 24). Mariota had a 5:1 Td/Int ratio while Manziel's was 3:1. Mariota had a slightly higher completion percentage while Manziel had a slightly higher average yards per completion. Mariota's QB rating was 10 points higher.

Manziel had 96 more rushing attempts then Mariota. But Mariota averaged 7.04 on his rush attempts while Manziel averaged 6.46. Manziel did have a huge advantage in rushing Tds: 19 to 4.

I would argue that Manziel had a much better offensive line and slightly better receiving core. Mariota had the advantage of a much better running game (which is why he had so many fewer rushing tds) and better overall offensive system.

It seems clear to me that the only reason Manziel had better numbers is because he had greatly more opportunity. Mariota was the victim of his own success. He, and his teammates were so good in the first half of games that he didnt get the chance to build up stats in the 2nd halves on many occasions.

I would also argue that Mariota makes his teammates better by sticking with the play and trusting the play and only takes off as a last option, rather then Manziel who takes off at the first sign of trouble and does the rest on his own. Mariota is Russell Wilson, Manziel is a young Michael Vick. Both great and dynamic players but which would you rather have running your team?

One final stat. Against top 25 opponents Mariota threw for 12 td's and 3 interceptions with a record of 4-1. Against top 25 opponents Manziel had 5 td's and 4 int's with a 2-2 record.

And a question for Kearly, every time you talk about Mariota you mention questionable decision making, can you point to an example? (not arguiing, just trying to have a friendly debate and trying to understand).

p.s. I promise this will be my last Mariota post until next season, cuz i'm even annoying myself with them.

J don't make me do it. I keep thinking of that song by James Ingram...I don't have the heart to hurt you, its the last thing I want to do. I did some research before you brought this up but I'll just give you the short version without the stats and just off memory. Look at who Manziel has as a supporting cast, look at the defenses in the SEC (If my memory serves the majority in the Pac-12 give up over 100/150 plus more yards), look at how Mariota did against top defenses (Stanford), and don't make light of Manziels rushing TD's (he destroys Mariota and the rushing yards per attempt is negligible since once you cross the TD plain they stop counting rushing yards) . I'll give you 2 more that are objectionable but I believe to be true. Oregon plays late at night out here sometimes and they didn't have many sexy games due to being so much better than their opponents. The other is that I think the prevailing opinion is that Oregon is loaded with talent on offense and they run a gimmick offense (Basically Mariota isn't doing anything amazing he is just doing what Oregon QB's do). I believe they do have great talent on offense but I don't think its a gimmick offense myself; I think its a revolutionary offense like the west coast offense was in the 80's. But thats just the general opinion I see on this coast. I like Mariota and I studied him and his Hawaiian roots. I do like him and he may just win a Heisman.

I have to ask though, does it bother you that Manziel de-committed from Oregon?

First of all let me make it very clear that i'm not saying Mariota should have won the Heisman, i wouldnt have even put him in my top 5 if I had a vote. I'm just saying that he's a better QB.

Manziel had 88 more pass attempts then Mariota. But Mariota had 6 more TD's (30 to 24). Mariota had a 5:1 Td/Int ratio while Manziel's was 3:1. Mariota had a slightly higher completion percentage while Manziel had a slightly higher average yards per completion. Mariota's QB rating was 10 points higher.

Manziel had 96 more rushing attempts then Mariota. But Mariota averaged 7.04 on his rush attempts while Manziel averaged 6.46. Manziel did have a huge advantage in rushing Tds: 19 to 4.

I would argue that Manziel had a much better offensive line and slightly better receiving core. Mariota had the advantage of a much better running game (which is why he had so many fewer rushing tds) and better overall offensive system.

It seems clear to me that the only reason Manziel had better numbers is because he had greatly more opportunity. Mariota was the victim of his own success. He, and his teammates were so good in the first half of games that he didnt get the chance to build up stats in the 2nd halves on many occasions.

I would also argue that Mariota makes his teammates better by sticking with the play and trusting the play and only takes off as a last option, rather then Manziel who takes off at the first sign of trouble and does the rest on his own. Mariota is Russell Wilson, Manziel is a young Michael Vick. Both great and dynamic players but which would you rather have running your team?

One final stat. Against top 25 opponents Mariota threw for 12 td's and 3 interceptions with a record of 4-1. Against top 25 opponents Manziel had 5 td's and 4 int's with a 2-2 record.

And a question for Kearly, every time you talk about Mariota you mention questionable decision making, can you point to an example? (not arguiing, just trying to have a friendly debate and trying to understand).

p.s. I promise this will be my last Mariota post until next season, cuz i'm even annoying myself with them.

J don't make me do it. I keep thinking of that song by James Ingram...I don't have the heart to hurt you, its the last thing I want to do. I did some research before you brought this up but I'll just give you the short version without the stats and just off memory. Look at who Manziel has as a supporting cast, look at the defenses in the SEC (If my memory serves the majority in the Pac-12 give up over 100/150 plus more yards), look at how Mariota did against top defenses (Stanford), and don't make light of Manziels rushing TD's (he destroys Mariota and the rushing yards per attempt is negligible since once you cross the TD plain they stop counting rushing yards) . I'll give you 2 more that are objectionable but I believe to be true. Oregon plays late at night out here sometimes and they didn't have many sexy games due to being so much better than their opponents. The other is that I think the prevailing opinion is that Oregon is loaded with talent on offense and they run a gimmick offense (Basically Mariota isn't doing anything amazing he is just doing what Oregon QB's do). I believe they do have great talent on offense but I don't think its a gimmick offense myself; I think its a revolutionary offense like the west coast offense was in the 80's. But thats just the general opinion I see on this coast. I like Mariota and I studied him and his Hawaiian roots. I do like him and he may just win a Heisman.

I have to ask though, does it bother you that Manziel de-committed from Oregon?

Don't A&M and Oregon pretty much run the same offense? Or at least pretty much the same principals? I agree they're not gimmicks. A gimmick implies that the defense can stop it once they've seen it a time or two, and that has proven to not happen.

The only reason it bothers me that manziel decommited is that he would make a pretty nice backup QB.

They both ended up in the right spots. Mariota is exactly what Chip wants in a QB, and Manziel obviously found a really good fit in Sumlin's offense. I think it worked out great for both. I, and every Duck fan I know, would not trade them for each other, and i'm sure A&M fans would say the same thing.

Its tempo J. A&M huddles and they don't run a play every 10-15 seconds. They do run spread. I like the Manziel backup comment, thats good and you could very well be right. They definitely ended up in the right places. I'm not a big Heisman guy anyway. Whoever wins never bothers me. It isn't the best player in college football, its the best player on a great team. And defensive players need not apply. Remember when Cortez was the defensive player of the year? Yeah he wouldn't even be considered on a 2-14 team yet he was the most dominant player in the NFL that year.

It's really hard to make a statistical comparison among two college QBs. That said, I think that if they switched schools, I don't think Mariota would be doing much at A&M, and Manziel would probably have slightly lower statistics at Oregon (their system might have a little too much structure for him), although I do think that Oregon with Manziel is undefeated right now. I think Oregon with 4 years of Manziel could threaten Tebow's college legend.

As far as the questionable decision making, I'm referring to his tendency to force throws. He has a really nice arm, but he'd get killed for that in the NFL. He'd probably get killed for it in the SEC even.

Last edited by kearly on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I promised myself i wasnt going to make any more posts about mariota. But man, i think some of you guys are just swallowing up the ESPN hype hook, line and sinker. Killing Mariota for having a bad game against Stanford (which he definatly did) but not even mentioning Manziel's far worse game against LSU. Kearly, I think youre one of the smartest guys on this board but I think yo'ure insane when it comes to evaluating Oregon QB's (i know you like Mariota, but that statement "Mariota wouldnt do anything at A&M" got me a little hot, haha). And its not like A&M is some rinky dink little team with no talent, Manziel has quite possibly the 2nd best o'line in the country behind Alabama. Some of you are making it seem like Manziel is leading St. Mary's for the Blind to wins or something. Get mariota behind that line to throw the ball 35 times a game like Manziel does and he'd be putting up insane numbers.

Whatever though, its splitting hairs either way, they're both already great college QB's as freshman. It will be fun to see what they do in the years to come.

I don't share your glowing review for A&M's line. It was pretty much an average unit when I scouted Tannehill last year, and the few A&M games I've seen this year it didn't stand out to me. It really makes no difference anyway- Manziel is a scrambler. Like Wilson, there will be plays in every game where shoddy protection can actually benefit him. I think with A&M it's an obvious case of the QB making the line look better just like Wilson does for Seattle. My vote for 2nd best line would be Stanford anyway.

I like Mariota a lot more than Darron Thomas, and I'm not ashamed to say that I think Thomas got a raw deal from evaluators. I think I gave Thomas a 4th round grade. Mariota right now is somewhere between a 2nd and a 3rd. He's extremely similar to Colin Kaepernick. I realize that's a comp I throw out a lot, because there are a lot of Kaepernick types in college, but Mariota fits him more than most, especially given how both are home run hitters as runners. And Mariota is less silly looking than Kaepernick is when he's running 70 yards to the house.

Texas A&M was not a great program before Manziel, save for a brief stretch when Ryan Tannehill debuted at the end of 2010. And guess why that was? It was because Tannehill is a great improvising QB and was playing hot at the time. Manziel is on a level by himself as an improvisational QB in the current college landscape. He's up there with Russell Wilson, Steve Young, and Fran Tarkenton in terms of his ability to improvise and make things happen. Granted, Manziel probably has the weakest arm, the slightest frame, and the wimpiest looking running style of the three, but he's a master improvisor, and those kinds of players can do magical things to an otherwise unremarkable offense.

The value that Manziel has to his offense is several magnitudes greater than what Mariota has to his, where Oregon has pretty much continuously plugged in athletes and produced results. A&M is not some great Juggernaut. They would vanish into obscurity without Manziel.

Really my only agreement with you on A&M is this: I like their WRs. Ryan Swope in particular is a player I'd love to get in the mid rounds.

JSeahawks wrote:I promised myself i wasnt going to make any more posts about mariota. But man, i think some of you guys are just swallowing up the ESPN hype hook, line and sinker. Killing Mariota for having a bad game against Stanford (which he definatly did) but not even mentioning Manziel's far worse game against LSU. Kearly, I think youre one of the smartest guys on this board but I think yo'ure insane when it comes to evaluating Oregon QB's (i know you like Mariota, but that statement "Mariota wouldnt do anything at A&M" got me a little hot, haha). And its not like A&M is some rinky dink little team with no talent, Manziel has quite possibly the 2nd best o'line in the country behind Alabama. Some of you are making it seem like Manziel is leading St. Mary's for the Blind to wins or something. Get mariota behind that line to throw the ball 35 times a game like Manziel does and he'd be putting up insane numbers.

Whatever though, its splitting hairs either way, they're both already great college QB's as freshman. It will be fun to see what they do in the years to come.

Yeah I don't know about the 2nd best O-Line comment. In fact I completely disagree. Alabama, LSU and Georgia had better for sure and thats just in the SEC. Aaron Murray had a way better pass pro, and Gurley the freshman ran for serious yardage at Georgia. LSU just had it, I can't prove it so much but I saw it. And Alabama has the best line in the country.

Too bad the Ducks shit the bed against Stanford. Would have liked to see them play Alabama so we could have a legit comparison. Although I guess in that case it would have been UO vs ND, so we still wouldnt have seen it.

If A&M was still in the Big 12 rather then the SEC I dont think Manziel would have even been invited to the ceremony. And in case you cant tell... yes, i'm a little bit bitter about him winning (even though i've known since the Alabama game that he would.)

IF they were still in the Big 12, they may have gone undefeated and might be playing in the National Championship game.

“A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill.” ― Robert A. Heinlein