Know of anyone who has bought a trained bullfighting horse for dressage? With their amazing lateral movement, levade, and responsiveness, it would seem to be the thing to do! Would you buy one?

twofatponies

Mar. 12, 2010, 09:36 AM

And given there is one on every corner for sale, they are easy to come by? LOL

This may not be universally true, but I spent time with a Lusitano breeder in Brazil, and as they explained it the horses from the bullfighting lines are fast, agile, small, compact, and harder to train (more sensitive, prone to tension if not brought along carefully) than the ones geared more towards high school riding, carriage driving or all-around sport horse work (dressage, jumping, pleasure).

That was true of the several I saw working during my visit.

They also tend to have a smaller, tighter stride - agility being key, not fluid, reaching trot, for example.

I would guess that in general they wouldn't be the choice of people who like the modern competitive dressage style of horse, since there seems to be a general judging bias towards the look and style of the warmbloods.

But might be quite fun for someone more interested in baroque breeds, classical portuguese dressage and exhibition dressage, for example?

kinnip

Mar. 12, 2010, 09:47 AM

I've only seen one such horse in person. He was everything tfp just said. He was also very impressive! He was so sensitive, and so well trained, that the novice riding him was shocked when he offered a passage half-pass as she was attempting a trot half-pass. She exclaimed "Did I make him do that?!" I would have loved to have ridden that horse.

Coppers mom

Mar. 12, 2010, 09:53 AM

I think it'd be so cool to have a little Doma Vaquera horse. It's dressage for Vaqueros, the guys with the sticks to push cows over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVykh4tGzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxuRjaY89_g&feature=related

I can't find it, but somewhere there's a really cool little chestnut that will do their version of a canter pirouhette, but it's pretty much a 180 degree spin, and he does a ton of lead changes on a circle, across the diagonal, and then on another circle.

Merche2

Mar. 12, 2010, 10:03 AM

I have seen them work in Spain and they are incredible!!! My mare has bullfighting bloodlines and my trainer says that she is quite different from other Andalusians that she has worked with.

If you go to youtube, there are some incredible videos of a lusitano called "Merlin". He is just amazing!!!

red squirrel ridge

Mar. 12, 2010, 10:07 AM

Check this out ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 12, 2010, 11:45 AM

From my previous training in cattle work, Ive never had a horse that was allowed "on the bit". They were trained to stay behind the bit and in front of the active leg only, a bit different pardon the pun :)

I would assume so is the same for the bull fighting horses.

Also, getting that front end DOWN and CATTY is the thing to do instead up working uphill and light. ITs a very different feeling and not at all the same musculature. Light but low, very low, and not balance from the mid but rather foot to foot...

gypsymare

Mar. 12, 2010, 12:44 PM

From my previous training in cattle work, Ive never had a horse that was allowed "on the bit". They were trained to stay behind the bit and in front of the active leg only, a bit different pardon the pun :)

I would assume so is the same for the bull fighting horses.

Also, getting that front end DOWN and CATTY is the thing to do instead up working uphill and light. ITs a very different feeling and not at all the same musculature. Light but low, very low, and not balance from the mid but rather foot to foot...

I would think it would be a LOT different. These horses aren't facing off a steer and directing his movements like an American cow horse, They are trying to stay out of the way and not get gored while staying close enough to the bull to allow the rider to place the banderillas or thrust with the lance. All the while playing to the audience.

rebecca yount

Mar. 12, 2010, 01:04 PM

Mike, Jean Paul Pare is very familiar with this type of horse and I am sure he could give you any and all information you might like to have. I have ridden one extensively who was from bullfighting lines although she wasn't trained to bullfight, and she was one hot tamale! All of what twofatponies said, in my opinion, is true.

piggiponiis

Mar. 12, 2010, 01:39 PM

Isn't that the whole idea behind the PRE horses that are becoming popular? I've seen some lovely Dressage in exhibitions. There's that guy from Florida - Matt something. He is an entertainer but the Dressage in his shows is lovely and very correct (plus a bit of extra leg action - I would assume to please the crowds)

Anyone know who i'm talking about?

tollertwins

Mar. 12, 2010, 02:06 PM

I think that both the bull fighting horses, and the horses good at doma vaquera tend to be seriously HOT! They kinda have to be to do their jobs.

There appear to be a number of the 'tres-sangres' in the doma arena...E.g. LusoXTBXArab....or Hispano's - LusoxArab.

Mike Matson

Mar. 12, 2010, 06:02 PM

I talked to my dressage instructor today who has ridden a trained bullfighting horse. He said the main issue regarding using one as a dressage horse is establishing the bend in the lateral movements. They are trained to move laterally without worrying about the bend. Therefore you will not get a dressage trot half pass, but a leg yield or full pass. Also they are VERY responsive to the seat and leg aids and very light on the bit. Riding one that has been trained for bullfighting he said is like riding a schoolmaster - once you know where "the buttons" are, then it is quite an experience.

He also said you can find them for sale as some do eventually become frightened of the bull and will not come close enough to one to be useful in the sport.

Alagirl

Mar. 12, 2010, 06:25 PM

I talked to my dressage instructor today who has ridden a trained bullfighting horse. He said the main issue regarding using one as a dressage horse is establishing the bend in the lateral movements. They are trained to move laterally without worrying about the bend. Therefore you will not get a dressage trot half pass, but a leg yield. Also they are VERY responsive to the seat and leg aids and very light on the bit. Riding one that has been trained for bullfighting he said is like riding a schoolmaster - once you know where "the buttons" are, then it is quite an experience.

He also said you can find them for sale as some do eventually become frightened of the bull and will not come close enough to one to be useful in the sport.

Cool, but I bet they still are out of my price range.

Megaladon

Mar. 12, 2010, 06:28 PM

PiggiPoniis--Matt Mclaughlin?

I have ridden a retired bull fighting stallion. He was very nice, one of my favorite mounts. He did have good lateral movement too. He was smart and liked his people. He was sensitive but not as docile (more high strung, more stallion behaviours) as other Andalusians I have worked with, I don't know if it was his lines or his bull fighting training. He was good to ride dressage but showing was not as successful because he would get so wound up (heightened awareness)--but I think that can be attributed to his history in the bull ring.

Still, a fun horse that gave me an excellent experience.

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 12, 2010, 06:28 PM

I would think it would be a LOT different. These horses aren't facing off a steer and directing his movements like an American cow horse, They are trying to stay out of the way and not get gored while staying close enough to the bull to allow the rider to place the banderillas or thrust with the lance. All the while playing to the audience.

Hmm

In penning, the horses move VERY fast.

Both of my trainers for cattle work were from South America. The horses were NOT on the bit. They are trained not to touch it, and if that hand lifts to back at hundred MPH.

:no::no: Not very good for the dressage horse.

But Im not stoppin anyone :)

gholem

Mar. 12, 2010, 06:42 PM

I talked to my dressage instructor today who has ridden a trained bullfighting horse. He said the main issue regarding using one as a dressage horse is establishing the bend in the lateral movements. They are trained to move laterally without worrying about the bend.

It does make one wonder, considering how fast and effectively they move laterally (merlin in one of the videos above can move faster laterally than the bull can run forward), how important the bend really is. Or maybe the lesson is that when it comes to pure speed and agility (not necessarily the qualities emphasized by dressage) the bend is, in fact, not very important.

BUT - in that same video you _can_ see (around :55 for example) that the horse does bend a little toward the inside.

Mike Matson

Mar. 12, 2010, 07:09 PM

Cool, but I bet they still are out of my price range.

According to my instructor, that's not necessarily the case. A trained bullfighting horse that is not bullfighting needs to be sold. Just don't let them know you are an American if you want the best price.

Mike Matson

Mar. 12, 2010, 07:12 PM

Megaladon, thank you for sharing your experiences on one!

piggiponiis

Mar. 12, 2010, 07:17 PM

Yes - Matt McLaughlin is who I am thinking of.

You meant real bullfighting horses - not just bullfighting breeds. I don't think he or those horses have done any real bullfighting. I happened across him at Equine Affaire once and was shocked @ how solid his riding and training was. Expected it to be a joke.

I do see that many of the working cow horse people are starting to mix in the Spanish Stallions, so I think there are more similarities than it might first appear.

Alagirl

Mar. 12, 2010, 07:30 PM

According to my instructor, that's not necessarily the case. A trained bullfighting horse that is not bullfighting needs to be sold. Just don't let them know you are an American if you want the best price.

Good, because I am not...we are talking Spain, right?mOr Portugal?

pluvinel

Mar. 12, 2010, 07:54 PM

I talked to my dressage instructor today who has ridden a trained bullfighting horse. He said the main issue regarding using one as a dressage horse is establishing the bend in the lateral movements. They are trained to move laterally without worrying about the bend. Therefore you will not get a dressage trot half pass, but a leg yield or full pass. Also they are VERY responsive to the seat and leg aids and very light on the bit. Riding one that has been trained for bullfighting he said is like riding a schoolmaster - once you know where "the buttons" are, then it is quite an experience.

He also said you can find them for sale as some do eventually become frightened of the bull and will not come close enough to one to be useful in the sport.

I have a bullfighting horse. Lusitano from top breeder and former top rejoneador. We discussed training approaches. His comment on the "LDR" was that if you trained a horse that way, it would never get out of its own way.

The issue is simply a matter of what is valued by each discipline. Competition dressage values a certain way of going. Rejoneadors value their life.....and that the horse has to be their partner, for the safety of both.

My horse will never have the big overstride of the the Dutch horses.....but is he a blast to ride.....we may not get high points in competition, but he can spin on a dime and give you change.....lots of fun!!!! Isn't that what its all about?

FYI...they don't bullfight in Brazil....Brazilian Lusitanos are being bred for the American and competition dressage market. You want a bullfighting horse....go where they fight bulls on horseback.

Cindyg

Mar. 12, 2010, 08:18 PM

I bought a fabulous doma vaquera horse. The year before I bought him, he won the IALHA Intermediate doma vaquera national championship; and the next year, I got to enter him in the same class. (We didn't win, but it was such a thrill!)

My experience, of course, will not be everyone's experience--but my horse did not make a happy transition to dressage. I ended up actually giving up dressage so I could get along with this horse.

He's an amazing horse and I adore him. In some ways he's very easy to ride--he's light as a feather, very quick, very sensitive, very athletic. He's just brilliant under saddle. But in other ways--well, he's easily offended, gets anxious easily, is very difficult to calm down, bolts whenever he feels the need...he can be very difficult.

Like I said, my experience will not be everyone's. I would not hesitate to try out some horses like this. You might fall in love. :)

Bluey

Mar. 12, 2010, 08:26 PM

Maybe this is what someone was asking for?
No, he doesn't touch the reins, it is all seat and leg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU&NR=1

Alagirl

Mar. 12, 2010, 08:29 PM

Maybe this is what someone was asking for?
No, he doesn't touch the reins, it is all seat and leg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU&NR=1

He's liek BTV :lol::lol::lol::lol:

I think that's what we are talking about...

Saw a thing like that on TV a while back, a Gala also including Ulla S. from G ;)

The cowhorse Pirouette impressed me more than Ms S's performance...though it lacked a bit the 'collection' part...or 'carriage'

pluvinel

Mar. 13, 2010, 07:42 AM

The issue is not buying a "trained" bullfighting horse.....the issues is training any horse to move like a bullfighting horse.

Having ridden a rather large Hanoverian and now a bullfighting Lusitano, the "bullfighting" moves that people talk about are the result of different training goals because of different cultural traditions.

If I start my warmup with a typical "germanic" trainer, they freak out. My warmup is typically at the walk asking the horse to come under itself. Back, forward, stop, sideways, forward, back,.....etc. All of this from the seat and soft to the hand.

The germanic trainers want you to immediately go into a FDO trot. My personal belief is that there is no point in adding speed to a horse with a hard mouth until the horse and I are in sync. And this is best done at the walk.

A fly can get a horse to move from a dead stop to a full gallop. It does not take force. It takes training to develop understanding in the horse as to what you want. To get a horse to behave like a bullfighting horse, the rider needs to think of a horse like a ball....think like a track ball on your computer....a ball that you can move in any direction by the meerest suggestion from the seat.

This training approach is fundamentally different than what most riders find out there because of the prevalence of germanic training in the US.

The French system is the closest one can get to bullfighting....and fyi....they fight bulls in the south of France.

Mike Matson

Mar. 13, 2010, 10:29 AM

pluvinel, thank you for sharing your experiences riding a horse trained for bullfighting.

MistyBlue

Mar. 13, 2010, 11:18 AM

Mike, a baroque bull trained horse can't do dressage because it wouldn't be "correct." As I've read repeatedly on this forum...WBs can't even do it "correctly." Not even the ones winning national and international competitions. :winkgrin:

And given there is one on every corner for sale, they are easy to come by? LOL

This may not be universally true, but I spent time with a Lusitano breeder in Brazil, and as they explained it the horses from the bullfighting lines are fast, agile, small, compact, and harder to train (more sensitive, prone to tension if not brought along carefully) than the ones geared more towards high school riding, carriage driving or all-around sport horse work (dressage, jumping, pleasure).

That was true of the several I saw working during my visit.

They also tend to have a smaller, tighter stride - agility being key, not fluid, reaching trot, for example.

I would guess that in general they wouldn't be the choice of people who like the modern competitive dressage style of horse, since there seems to be a general judging bias towards the look and style of the warmbloods.

But might be quite fun for someone more interested in baroque breeds, classical portuguese dressage and exhibition dressage, for example?

I talked to a small handful of breeders of Lusitanos in Brazil. (seems to be a country loaded with Lusitanos) I was considering one...because finding a sport bred Lusitano in the states was next to impossible. And yep, was told the same...these are sport bred horses as opposed to dressage bred. Very versatile, can do dressage as well as various other disciplines but wouldn't be excelling at top levels in them.
They are on the hot side...which is a major plus for me since that's what I personally like. Hot meaning reactive as opposed to being a pita. I had wanted a good all around horse I could dabble in various things with at decent levels but not top levels. Jumpers being one. (Lusitanos and Andies make surprisingly good and *fun* jumpers...that agility, athleticism and reactiveness and their brains are fun to pilot around a course)

For those thinking of one...they aren't really expensive down there. A lot less expensive than here. But you have to factor in the cost of importing it here. And you can't go pricing out their breeding stock mares or the stallions that might be used for breeding later or that are already trained. Those are :eek: in cost...and they really won't let go of a good mare IME. But the mares they don't intend to breed and the very few males they geld are decently priced. Quite a few under $5k and they were still *nice* built animals. They're pretty uber-picky about those they keep to breed or train and those they sell off. And there aren't tons of "inadequate" horses since they're so strict in their breeding and most of the folks I talked to were multigenerational breeders (their great grandfathers and further back, they know what works)

RHdobes563

Mar. 13, 2010, 12:17 PM

Wow. Absolutely wow.

Now, I have a whole bunch of new youtube videos to watch tonight!

smithywess

Mar. 13, 2010, 12:27 PM

Maybe this is what someone was asking for?
No, he doesn't touch the reins, it is all seat and leg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU&NR=1

Hello Bluey,
To give him credit I believe this is the Garrochista Jesus Morales riding his Hispano-Arab stallion. It is a fine example of the Garrocha,a method of herding cattle with a long pole which has been developed into an art form.

Bogey2

Mar. 13, 2010, 01:13 PM

I have heard the term "eqitation horse" for the Lusitano's that are not built for upper level work. Can anyone enlighten me on this term?
Also, do you immediately put them "through" when you get on?

egontoast

Mar. 13, 2010, 01:29 PM

I think the oP is obsessed with sideways based on this and other threads.

The bullfighting horses are really athletic and interesting but I also see an awful lot of torque on those joints as they scramble to escape the horns which are obviously much more motivating than our wee spurs.

I think these are very athletic horses but not so sure they are any more suited to dressage than any other similarly bred horse that have been trained in the usual way .

Anyone can teach any horse to spring sideways excitedly given enough motivation. I think this is quite different from the cow sense of a good cutting horse which is not based on the same type of motivation.

Mike Matson

Mar. 13, 2010, 01:53 PM

I think the oP is obsessed with sideways based on this and other threads.

Always a productive day when one of the resident CotH pyschologists figures out what's wrong with you. :lol:

egontoast

Mar. 13, 2010, 02:03 PM

You are very welcome. Always happy to help!:)

Foxtrot's

Mar. 13, 2010, 02:08 PM

In fencing it is touche. What is it called when the stab hits its mark in bullfighting? Anyway, Touche, Eggy.

CosMonster

Mar. 13, 2010, 02:12 PM

I've been learning a little doma vaquera with my young Arab who doesn't really like the mostly German-style dressage I know. He does it, but he doesn't really seem to enjoy it (not to say it is bad, just not for him). He loves the doma vaquera, though. :lol: We're not very serious about it but it's very interesting. It has a lot of the same general goals of dressage--lightness, control, suppleness--but it has a totally different approach and the end result is quite different, while still having those same basic qualities.

I'm pretty new at it so I don't think I can speak too much about it, and Pluvinel and others have done a good job of explaining, but I can definitely recommend checking it out! It is a lot of fun.

For competitive doma vaquera, actually, according to Manuel Trigo the most successful horses are Thoroughbreds and Hispano-Arabs IIRC, with PREs coming in third. I don't know if that's personal preference or based on what is winning, though. In the US it seems to be pretty much Andalusians and Lusitanos.

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 13, 2010, 03:05 PM

I think the oP is obsessed with sideways based on this and other threads.

The bullfighting horses are really athletic and interesting but I also see an awful lot of torque on those joints as they scramble to escape the horns which are obviously much more motivating than our wee spurs.

I think these are very athletic horses but not so sure they are any more suited to dressage than any other similarly bred horse that have been trained in the usual way .

Anyone can teach any horse to spring sideways excitedly given enough motivation. I think this is quite different from the cow sense of a good cutting horse which is not based on the same type of motivation.

I agree with this :)

I still see some of the cow training when they face off the bull and ready themselves to move laterally, they sure TRY to get down in front but the build that they are is opposite that movement. BUT, I think the only reasons someone would bring up dressage after watching this training is because of the more uphill breed doing it so...

Get a little 14h cow horse out there thats down hill and ACTUALLY better with the spins and that quick type lateral and nobody would be thinking of using them for dressage *shrugs*

What better to get out of the way of a bull, than a little quarter horse faster on the take off?

These breeds are not chosen because they are the best at these movements, NOPE, its because they are flashy for the crowd. :yes:

I dont know anybody in the cow world breedin spanish stallions for cow horses :no:

But I do know quite a few mares that just left for Venezuela for THIER breeding programs. And a few sent to spain for reining. Quarter horses all of them.

JMurray

Mar. 13, 2010, 03:06 PM

Wow. That is all I can say. I had no idea any of this even existed. A whole new world has opened up for me into how to ride and train a horse and that there are even competitions for it.

I am not wanting to do it myself but my interest is now tweaked to get more educated about it. The videos are amazing.

Kudos to all of you that are involved in this type of riding and horse. Absolutely amazing!

pluvinel

Mar. 13, 2010, 03:17 PM

I had no idea any of this even existed.
I am in Chester Cty. When I have held clinics or offered to help people with their horse, no one is interest. Only a few knowledgeable people came to the clinics. Everyone is wowed by the big Dutch trots and conventional competition....there is so much one can do to have fun with one's horse.

I offered to put together a "trail class" a la "working equitation" to supplement a schooling show....was laughed out of a DVCTA board meeting as if I had just sprouted a third eye.

CosMonster

Mar. 13, 2010, 03:30 PM

Oh Pluvinel if you were near me I would totally have supported that. :( The reason I'm only playing around with this stuff is that I'm limited to the occasional out-of-state clinic, reading, and watching videos. Not much interest in it around here either.

twofatponies

Mar. 13, 2010, 03:44 PM

Neat to hear from folks who have actually ridden bullfighting or doma vaquera horses...sigh, in another lifetime I'll live in the right part of the world, have the right connections, and have money for a fancy horse... ;)

dutchmike

Mar. 13, 2010, 03:47 PM

For the value of a bullfighter you can buy a nice dressage horse. Not every horse can bullfight they need to want to do it. You can increase their talent with training but you cannot create talent it. Having said that most lusitano's are agile , athletic like the bullfighters they just miss that mental thing that bullfighting posses, call it bravery or suicidal thoughts lol what ever. If you are lucky you can buy one that got hit by the bull once to often and have fear of the bull but in general their nerves are pretty shot and might just be to jumpy for a dressage arena

JMurray

Mar. 13, 2010, 04:09 PM

I offered to put together a "trail class" a la "working equitation" to supplement a schooling show....was laughed out of a DVCTA board meeting as if I had just sprouted a third eye.

I can imagine you were. But it would be an amazing exhibition to have at Dressage at Devon.

pluvinel

Mar. 13, 2010, 04:14 PM

I can imagine you were. But it would be an amazing exhibition to have at Dressage at Devon.If you think there is interest, I know the lady that is doing the garrocha exhibition for the WEG, Janet Tenney. She studied with Jesus Morales. She has both Lusitanos and Andalusians. I have seen her do a freestyle on her Andalusian stallion that is to die for. I also suggested something like this to the divas at DaD and got no interest. If people think there is interest, pls contact her.....she's much better than I am.

dutchmike

Mar. 13, 2010, 04:30 PM

I offered to put together a "trail class" a la "working equitation" to supplement a schooling show....was laughed out of a DVCTA board meeting as if I had just sprouted a third eye.

The IALHA is working on creating working equitation classes for the IALHA finals in Fort Worth this year

pluvinel

Mar. 13, 2010, 04:39 PM

The IALHA is working on creating working equitation classes for the IALHA finals in Fort Worth this year
For those of us who live east of the Mississipi River, the Ft. Worth Nationals might as well be on the moon. IALHA just doesn't get it. The Nationals need to move around the nation....Nationals.....Ain't trailering to TX....

However, I will be at the ERAHC show in Lexington, VA in Sept.

dutchmike

Mar. 13, 2010, 04:41 PM

For those of us who live east of the Mississipi River, the Ft. Worth Nationals might as well be on the moon. IALHA just doesn't get it. The Nationals need to move around the nation....Nationals.....Ain't trailering to TX....

However, I will be at the ERAHC show in Sept.

Hopefully if there is enough intrest at the finals they might organise working equitation competitions all over the country. Should be fun and something different .

Tamara in TN

Mar. 13, 2010, 04:48 PM

[QUOTE=CosMonster;4742534] He loves the doma vaquera, though. :lol: We're not very serious about it but it's very interesting. It has a lot of the same general goals of dressage--lightness, control, suppleness--but it has a totally different approach and the end result is quite different, while still having those same basic qualities.

it is the most beautiful riding that there is....

Tamara in TN

JMurray

Mar. 13, 2010, 05:25 PM

If you think there is interest, I know the lady that is doing the garrocha exhibition for the WEG, Janet Tenney. She studied with Jesus Morales. She has both Lusitanos and Andalusians. I have seen her do a freestyle on her Andalusian stallion that is to die for. I also suggested something like this to the divas at DaD and got no interest. If people think there is interest, pls contact her.....she's much better than I am.

They usually want a video of what the exhibition would look like. So seeing the WEG exhibition might help.

Also Ludwigs Corner Horse show is always looking for interesting exhibitions

JMurray

Mar. 13, 2010, 05:29 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVykh4tGzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOv8fsuz05M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZd6AgoMbd4&feature=fvw

Oh my. fabulous

DownYonder

Mar. 13, 2010, 05:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVykh4tGzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOv8fsuz05M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZd6AgoMbd4&feature=fvw

Oh my. fabulous

The second horse almost looked lame behind during the spanish walk, but my gosh - watching these horses, I get much more of a sense of what a well trained war horse was like than I do watching dressage horses from the northern European schools of training. I can see riding one of these horses into combat. Salinero, Totilas, Satchmo, etc., - not so much.

MistyBlue

Mar. 13, 2010, 06:01 PM

The horse in the first video...the black...does it have double running braids with tassles? I'm trying to figure out how they did it's mane.
I love watching that style of riding...I;d never try it though. Not the type with the pole...I'm so ridiculously uncoordinated that I'd catch the tip of that pole in a divit, drive the other end up one nostril and end up getting pole vaulted across the arena. :eek: :no:

mountainbells

Mar. 13, 2010, 07:40 PM

If you think there is interest, I know the lady that is doing the garrocha exhibition for the WEG, Janet Tenney.

Do you know what day the WEG exhibition will be?

Thanks!

Renascence

Mar. 13, 2010, 09:14 PM

When we were in Spain we went to the Andalusian stud in Seville and saw demonstrations of their horses doing Grand Prix dressage, driving and eveything but jumping. We would not go to a bullfight, but did see amazing footage sans gore in some footage at Senor Pepe's sherry bodega.

We then got to ride some back in Valencia on the beach, and I loved how talented and gifted these horses were. It was funny though, the stable owner was in awe that we had a POA back in the states and said it would be worth a "quarter mill" over there,

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 13, 2010, 09:29 PM

The second horse almost looked lame behind during the spanish walk, but my gosh - watching these horses, I get much more of a sense of what a well trained war horse was like than I do watching dressage horses from the northern European schools of training. I can see riding one of these horses into combat. Salinero, Totilas, Satchmo, etc., - not so much.

I would be more interested in seeing the training videos vs. the finished videos.

The very few I've seen trained close to this style here in America were ran sideways down fences for lateral with a flaying spur and shank bit from the day they were backed :no:

MistyBlue

Mar. 13, 2010, 09:35 PM

It was funny though, the stable owner was in awe that we had a POA back in the states and said it would be worth a "quarter mill" over there

One of the officers in the company my husband works for lives in Spain. Years back he was here in the States on business and we took him out to brunch. Since he's bigtime into horses I always enjoy his visits and our chats. (he's a German living in Spain, his accent can be funny as heck sometimes) He was very excited about a "very expensive import" he bought his wife for her birthday...and everyone where they board was going bananas over it. He grinned as he told me all about his Doc Bar line AQHA present. :lol:
It's funny that I never considered a QH a fancy import.

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 13, 2010, 09:44 PM

Found one I think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXI-5Jck9gw&NR=1&feature=fvwp

The training WITHOUT the bull.

stecia

Mar. 13, 2010, 09:49 PM

The black in the first video is Ami MacHugh's beautiful stallion Kianto (Jackass Mountain Ranch). She rides him dressage and he has also sired very talented dressage mounts--Klickitat, Davidoso AK, many others.

I want him to temporarily marry my partbred! Nothing fancy, just a shotgun wedding is all I ask...

CosMonster

Mar. 13, 2010, 10:05 PM

I would be more interested in seeing the training videos vs. the finished videos.

The very few I've seen trained close to this style here in America were ran sideways down fences for lateral with a flaying spur and shank bit from the day they were backed :no:

Again, I'm no expert, but the doma vaquera stuff I've seen has been very good. Manuel Trigo is the only one I've been able to see in a clinic, but he is very gentle and his horses respond very well to him, not fearful at all. In fact one of the things that is often emphasized both by him and in the reading I've done is that you need to work with the horse's personality and take great care not to break their spirit--pride and self-confidence are important characteristics in a doma vaquera horse.

I'm not so knowledgeable about actual bullfighting since obviously there's not really any of that in the US and I'm still too poor to make it to Spain, but that's my experience with doma vaquera. Like any discipline I'm sure there are crappy "trainers" out there who bully their horses, though.

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 13, 2010, 10:11 PM

I posted a training video above.

Although he is not being "crappy", he definately yanks that horse back to whoa and lets the poor balance continue through out.

Definately FAR too much walking outside of the shoulders for my taste.

I think as far as buying one for dressage and hoping for training that will transfer I vote a big :no:

IN fact you may end up with more bad habits for your money then anything.

twofatponies

Mar. 13, 2010, 10:19 PM

So hard to know if that training video is typical, above average, below average... the horse seems either a touch inexperienced or just not fluid yet, the rider rushing through the exercises (yes, he will need to do them fast when the bull is there, but with a solid base the horse should be more balanced, less "caught by surprise"?)...

In any case, I love the way this horse goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loClwPmmwVA

(working equitation, not bullfighting)

Even though they make some mistakes there seems to me to be a fluid partnership and relaxation and focus there.

tollertwins

Mar. 13, 2010, 11:12 PM

I love watching good working eq! Those horses are really, really handy! And that rider could SIT@

pluvinel

Mar. 14, 2010, 09:07 AM

I would be more interested in seeing the training videos vs. the finished videos.

The very few I've seen trained close to this style here in America were ran sideways down fences for lateral with a flaying spur and shank bit from the day they were backed :no:
You say you've seen just a few. Perhaps you have only seen crappy trainers. The iberian disciplines are not very common in the US and there are very few knowledgeable trainers in the US. No reason to diss an entire discipline based on a few bad apples. There are bad horse trainers and good horse trainers in every discipline.

I took lessons with Bento Castelhano, individual world champion Portuguese WE and coach of the Brazilian team when they won. He expected you and the horse to work hard, but he was a good trainer......

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 14, 2010, 04:34 PM

The videos posted on here are the best right?

Well then I still stick with what Ive said :)

Bad training, well, for dressage anyway...

Coppers mom

Mar. 14, 2010, 08:09 PM

The videos posted on here are the best right?

Well then I still stick with what Ive said :)

Bad training, well, for dressage anyway...

Um... no. They're just videos quickly picked off of Youtube that people who really don't have a clue thought looked neat.

What is up with the attitude towards this type of riding?

suze

Mar. 14, 2010, 08:43 PM

My daughter has a client who has one. He has beautiful manners & is buffed to the extreme. He's never actually fought bulls - his owner won't allow that - but she wanted him to able to do all the neat stuff, which he does quite easily. My daughter loves riding him, says he's really fun. Hot, hot, hot though. So light in the bridle & so responsive. Excellent work ethic. Sometimes his owner uses him to move the cattle from one pen to another or to get some out & sometimes acts as corner turn back. He's not very good at it & he doesn't get to turn back with the Open horses, but you can tell he's having a blast!

NOMIOMI1

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:05 PM

Um... no. They're just videos quickly picked off of Youtube that people who really don't have a clue thought looked neat.

What is up with the attitude towards this type of riding?

LOL

They are the best of THAT type of riding is what I was saying.

And from what was presented, I dont see anything that has to do with anything dressage wise.

Coppers mom

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:22 PM

LOL

They are the best of THAT type of riding is what I was saying.

And from what was presented, I dont see anything that has to do with anything dressage wise.

Yes, I realize that. And again, no one has put these videos up as anything other than something that's interesting to watch.