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I think how they got 72 people out of each torpedo in 5 minutes in a battle situation (transporters were not working) is a MUCH larger hole than how Reliant forgot a planet. Maybe remnants of Ceti Alpha big enough to be mistaken for a planet were still orbiting the sun.

Completely agree. I chalked it up to a scientific error, like the fact that although they had visited that system before (obviously the Enterprise did) they might not have had an outpost near there, so all of data was through sensors, telescopes, and all of that. I mean, even today, we can detect exoplanets based on radiation fluctuations, but that doesn't mean we know everything about those systems.

But the bigger issue for me is the sheer number of torpedoes the plot uses as it's MacGuffin, and (staring from before the movie proper actually begins) who has them, why they have them, what they will do with them, etc. Oddly enough, the issue of the torpedoes connects directly into other issues. For example, why did Khan go to Kronos? I have no idea, and the movie doens't tell us. The answer to this question is connected to anotehr question that the film doesn't tell us? How long were Khan and Marcus working together, and how far did they get? Did Khan go to Kronos becuase, even after Marcus exploited him and his crew, he still agreed (for whatever reason) with the notion that STarfleet should be militarized and that S31 should start a pre-emptive strike with the Klingons? I mean, Khan could have gone anywhere, so it stands to reason he picke dKronos for a reason, and that this reason had to do with Marcus' desire to fight the Klingons? And that also brings to light of what Marcus was going to once he started the war. How would he fight it with one ship?

But the fact that there are so many torpedoes accentuates all these other plot problems, but is unweildy unto itself. The ship was being torn apart and people were flying out of the hull at warp but every torpedo of these seventy two survived? Really?

__________________
"Savor the fruit of life, my young friends. It has a sweet taste when it's fresh from the vine. But don't live too long... The taste turns bitter... after a time."

Spock mentions in Space Seed that the system has been fulled charted and that "planet number 5 is habitable." stating that the environment is harsh, which means a survey ship was in the system monitoring each planet not all that long ago.

The Enterprise warps back to the Botany Bay, takes everything to CA5, settles them on the planet by bringing (somehow) the cargobays from the BB to the surface, which could have taken a while, got the colonists down there, Spock likely scanned the region while they were there, then left.

Reliant was at least the 3rd Federation starship inside that system in 30-50 years, with no less than one entire system wide survey and all of Spock's readings from the previous trip.

Suddenly it's all 'how do i science'.

__________________"But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."

The ship doesn't appear to be all that big when you look at the exterior shots (during Sulu's transmission) and we see the doors opening for the tubes...

Now I know you're trolling. Cut it out.

I'm not trolling. I also don't want to get into Starship size argument, save for the fact that the film shows us how big these tubes are in scale with the rest of the ship.. and I was using that to counter the arguments of the number of torpedoes and the storage space needed for all of them (in comparison to the areas where the hull was breached)

Don't accuse me of trolling when I'm not.

__________________
"Savor the fruit of life, my young friends. It has a sweet taste when it's fresh from the vine. But don't live too long... The taste turns bitter... after a time."

Spock mentions in Space Seed that the system has been fulled charted and that "planet number 5 is habitable." stating that the environment is harsh, which means a survey ship was in the system monitoring each planet not all that long ago.

The Enterprise warps back to the Botany Bay, takes everything to CA5, settles them on the planet by bringing (somehow) the cargobays from the BB to the surface, which could have taken a while, got the colonists down there, Spock likely scanned the region while they were there, then left.

Reliant was at least the 3rd Federation starship inside that system in 30-50 years, with no less than one entire system wide survey and all of Spock's readings from the previous trip.

Suddenly it's all 'how do i science'.

Well, maybe. We have maps of the oceans. We've been making maps for centuries. We could still discover something about the oceans that we don't know.

The real issue is that Star Trek, while a franchise back then, was not a thriving franchise when Bennet and Meyer did the film.. they just had a story idea and bent continuity and a few little rules to tell an awesome story. But now, Trek is a huge franchise, people do care about this stuff, and the writers getting paid millions shouldn't puke out screenplays in a weekend and let such a sloppy project out to the public. I mean, the torpedoes are the MacGuffin of the film

__________________
"Savor the fruit of life, my young friends. It has a sweet taste when it's fresh from the vine. But don't live too long... The taste turns bitter... after a time."

I recall an on screen graphic in ST6:TUC, displaying icons representing torpedoes on board. The first time they are shown all are present but later two have turned red, indicating there absense/use.

IIRC there were quite a few of them represented, though I never actually counted them.....

ETA When I first saw the broadside cannons my eyes rolled so hard they nearly stuck that way. But now after considering it, it's a nice homage to sailing vessels of old and may make for a neat space battle in the future. I don't care how how they fit into the ship or not, I outgrew starship porn a while ago.

Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991...but I'll be back in 2016.

Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Chemahkuu wrote:

As for the Ceta Alpha system.

Spock mentions in Space Seed that the system has been fulled charted and that "planet number 5 is habitable." stating that the environment is harsh, which means a survey ship was in the system monitoring each planet not all that long ago.

The Enterprise warps back to the Botany Bay, takes everything to CA5, settles them on the planet by bringing (somehow) the cargobays from the BB to the surface, which could have taken a while, got the colonists down there, Spock likely scanned the region while they were there, then left.

Reliant was at least the 3rd Federation starship inside that system in 30-50 years, with no less than one entire system wide survey and all of Spock's readings from the previous trip.

Suddenly it's all 'how do i science'.

Well, maybe. We have maps of the oceans. We've been making maps for centuries. We could still discover something about the oceans that we don't know.

The real issue is that Star Trek, while a franchise back then, was not a thriving franchise when Bennet and Meyer did the film.. they just had a story idea and bent continuity and a few little rules to tell an awesome story. But now, Trek is a huge franchise, people do care about this stuff, and the writers getting paid millions shouldn't puke out screenplays in a weekend and let such a sloppy project out to the public. I mean, the torpedoes are the MacGuffin of the film

I fail to see how Trek not being a "thriving franchise" at the time TWOK was made has anything to do with whether or not the Ceti Alpha V problem constitutes a plot hole.

Spock mentions in Space Seed that the system has been fulled charted and that "planet number 5 is habitable." stating that the environment is harsh, which means a survey ship was in the system monitoring each planet not all that long ago.

The Enterprise warps back to the Botany Bay, takes everything to CA5, settles them on the planet by bringing (somehow) the cargobays from the BB to the surface, which could have taken a while, got the colonists down there, Spock likely scanned the region while they were there, then left.

Reliant was at least the 3rd Federation starship inside that system in 30-50 years, with no less than one entire system wide survey and all of Spock's readings from the previous trip.

Suddenly it's all 'how do i science'.

Well, maybe. We have maps of the oceans. We've been making maps for centuries. We could still discover something about the oceans that we don't know.

The real issue is that Star Trek, while a franchise back then, was not a thriving franchise when Bennet and Meyer did the film.. they just had a story idea and bent continuity and a few little rules to tell an awesome story. But now, Trek is a huge franchise, people do care about this stuff, and the writers getting paid millions shouldn't puke out screenplays in a weekend and let such a sloppy project out to the public. I mean, the torpedoes are the MacGuffin of the film

I fail to see how Trek not being a "thriving franchise" at the time TWOK was made has anything to do with whether or not the Ceti Alpha V problem constitutes a plot hole.

That's my point. I was trying to establish that I was on the side that the Ceti Alpha V thing was not a plot hole and was no big deal to me in the least.

But the torpedoes, who has them, when they have, what they knew and when they knew it, and how they go back forth, whether they are armed or not... well those things constitute the entirety of the plot of Into Darkness... and I think I am justified into being a bit picky about it.

The script simple. Kirk goes to Kronos and is ordered to fire them all on Harrison. I like the fact that the writers had an A to B to C plot to start their story and there were some good debates between Spock and Kirk, as well as between Scotty and Kirk as to the ethics of using them.

The story gets out of hand once we look into the back story, so much so that that even the simple plot the writers started with doesn't make sense.

__________________
"Savor the fruit of life, my young friends. It has a sweet taste when it's fresh from the vine. But don't live too long... The taste turns bitter... after a time."

I personally don't have a problem with the missing Ceti Alpha V planet.
This was obviously a backwater star system that nobody cared about. There are billions of solar systems in the galaxy.
Only the astronomy section could care less if one of their charts is off. Planets probably disappear from their charts on occasion. Perhaps they chalk it up to a probe taking the initial readings of this section of space and not being 'entirely accurate'.

All Terell was interested in was finding a suitable planet not charting space. And you think why would Chekov not remember the significance of the Ceti Alpha system, since Khan knew him? Perhaps Chekov and the rest of the crew weren't told of Khan's exact location. Just that he'd been 'taken care of'. I'm sure after he'd tried to kill everyone, no-one was that concerned about his welfare.

I have more concern about the 72 torpedoes and maybe in 20 years I'll fangirl explain it but it doesn't make sense to me right now. IMO the writers needed to put in an a explanation (technobabble or otherwise) why all 72 torpedoes needed to be used. Perhaps a strafe run to wipe out the entire surface area of the planet to ensure Khan's demise. But then you still had 'innocent' Klingons there.

I just had problems with the whole incident. From Klingons being there, for there being the necessity to use all 72 torpedoes in someone else's territory, to Sulu being able to verbally broadcast his warning to Khan from space to 'an entire planet?'.

Seems to me they just wanted to have Klingons in the movie without a real reason. There was never a stage of mystery where I wondered if the Klingons were 'behind it'.