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Theo van Gogh was shot dead on an Amsterdam street on Tuesday morning. His assailant was a Dutch Moroccan who was wearing traditional Islamic clothing. After shooting van Gogh several times, he stabbed him repeatedly, slit his throat with a butcher knife, and left a note containing verses from the Qur’an on the body. Said Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende: “Nothing is known about the motive” of the killer.

Others were not quite so cautious. A Dutch student declared: “This has to end, once and for all. You cannot just kill people on the street in a brutal way when you disagree with them.” Job Cohen, the mayor of Amsterdam, declared: “We will show loud and clear that freedom of speech is important to us.”

Freedom of speech: Eight weeks ago, van Gogh’s film Submission aired on Dutch TV. The brainchild of an ex-Muslim member of the Dutch Parliament, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Submission decried the mistreatment of Muslim women — and even featured images of battered women wearing see-through robes that exposed their breasts, with verses from the Qur’an written on their bodies.

In poor taste? Insulting? Probably that was a bit of the intention. Van Gogh, the great grandson of Vincent van Gogh’s brother (“dear Theo”), was a well-known gadfly on the Dutch scene; in the past, he had attacked Jewish and Christians with enough vehemence to elicit formal complaints. But after Submission, the death threats started to come. Van Gogh, in the eyes of many Dutch Muslims, had blasphemed Islam — an offense that brought the death penalty. The filmmaker was unconcerned. The film itself, he said, was “the best protection I could have. It’s not something I worry about.”

His death shows that it’s something that everyone who values freedom should worry about. For the murder of van Gogh, if it indeed turns out to have been committed by a Muslim enraged at his “blasphemy,” has precedents. In 1947, the Iranian lawyer Ahmad Kasravi was murdered in court by Islamic radicals; Kasravi was there to defend himself against charges that he had attacked Islam. Four years later, members of the same radical Muslim group, Fadayan-e Islam, assassinated Iranian Prime Minister Haji-Ali Razmara after a group of Muslim clerics issued a fatwa calling for his death. In 1992, the Egyptian writer Faraj Foda was murdered by Muslims enraged at his “apostasy” from Islam — another offense for which traditional Islamic law prescribes the death penalty. Foda’s countryman, the Nobel Prizewinning novelist Naguib Mahfouz, was stabbed in 1994 after accusations of blasphemy. Under Pakistan’s blasphemy laws, many non-Muslims have been arrested, tortured, and sentenced to die on the slimmest of evidence. And of course, there is the Ayatollah Khomeini’s notorious death fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

But for such things to happen in Iran and Egypt, two countries where Islamic radicalism is widespread, is one thing; to have a “blasphemer” gunned down on the streets of Amsterdam in broad daylight is another. Europe has for thirty years encouraged massive immigration from Muslim nations; Muslims now comprise five percent of Holland’s population, and that number is growing rapidly. But it is still largely taboo in Europe — as in America — to raise any questions about how ready that population is to accept the parameters of secularism. When Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn tried to raise some of those questions in 2002, he was vilified as a racist — in line with the continuing tendency of the Western media to frame questions regarding Islam in racial terms, despite the fact that the totalitarian intransigence of the ideology of radical Islam is found among all races. And Fortuyn himself, of course, was himself ultimately murdered by a Dutch assailant who, according to The Guardian, “did it for Dutch Muslims.”

The deaths of Fortuyn and now van Gogh indicate that the costs of maintaining this taboo are growing ever higher. One of the prerequisites of the hard-won peaceful coexistence of ideologies in a secular society is freedom of speech — particularly the freedom to question, to dissent, even to ridicule. Multiculturalism and secularism are on a collision course: if one group is able to demand that its tenets remain above criticism, it no longer coexists with the others as an equal, but has embarked on the path to hegemony.

It is long past due for such considerations to become part of the public debate in Western countries. To what extent are Muslim immigrants in Western countries willing to set aside Islamic strictures on questioning, criticizing, and leaving Islam?

After van Gogh was killed, thousands of people took to the streets of Amsterdam to pay him homage. Among them, according to Agence France Presse, was a Muslim woman who stated: “I didn’t really agree with van Gogh but he was a person who used his freedom of expression.” She held up a sign saying, “Muslims Against Violence,” explaining: “I decided that as a Muslim and a Moroccan I should take up my responsibility to show that we do not support this act.”

But the traditional Muslim view is, unfortunately, alive and well; it was firmly restated several years ago by Pakistan’s Federal Sharia Court: “The penalty for contempt of the Holy Prophet …is death and nothing else.” No one knows how many Muslims in Europe and America hold the views of the Moroccan woman at the rally, and how many would side with Pakistan’s Sharia Court — and the killer of Theo van Gogh.

If Western countries continue, out of ignorance, fear, or narrow self-interest, to refuse to find out, they will find themselves playing host to many more incidents like the bloody scene in Amsterdam Tuesday morning. The longer this question is ignored, or attributed only to “racist” sensibilities, the more likely it becomes that the killing of Theo van Gogh will not be a tragic anomaly, but a harbinger of things to come.

The murderer is ultimately responsible for his deed. But the thing is that the Fascist government and media in Holland did racist comments towards the migrants. No one stopped guys like van Ghogh. it was that he was hated. Now a Muslim fundamentalist killed him. If there was not such an environment this would have not happened.

He insulted Islam but moreover insulted the migrants on non-religious base. Now a fundamentalist killed him, because the other people were more civilized and did not want to murder, even if they had no fair power to respond van Gogh in the media_________________"May Ahura Mazda protect this land, this nation, from rancor, from foes, from falsehood, and from drought"

Holland is a democratic country where freedom of speech rules. If this Moroccan couldn't accept then he should have gone home to his country where it doesn't exist. To blame this tradegy on the government is just wrong.

So what if he insulted islam, it's his human right to do so!_________________Zoroaster's philosophy: Good thoughts, good words, good deeds.
Pâyandeh bâd xâke Irân e mâ!

Last edited by Saman on Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

It seems that you do not understand the concept of free speech. It was his right to insult whomever and whatever he wants. No one had the right to kill him or even tell him to stop making his movies and express his views. True freedom only comes if you are allowed to say what other people don't want you to say. Otherwise it wouldn't be freedom if he only said things to please and appease everybody. Theo Van Gogh was not a racist and he did not hate immigrants. He was making a movie for a dutch MP who was AN IMMIGRANT FROM SOLAMIA! But even if he did hate immigrants; it gave no one any right to stop him from speaking his mind and certainly no right to kill him.

It seems the people of Netherlands have a right to be angry at their immigrant population. They come to their country; insult them and accuse them of being racists and then murder them for making movies. I know if a bunch of dutch people came to live in Iran and murdered our politicians and our movie makers, I'd be angry as hell.

The murderer is not the only one responsible for this killing. All those from the Muslim and immigrant community who demonize others for having different views share the blame. Why? Their ultimate goal was to kill Hirsi Ali. But she was in hiding and was getting protection from the police. So instead they opted for killing one of her friends who helped her make that movie. Why is Hirsi Ali, an immigrant from Somalia, in hiding? Why has she received death threats? Is she a racist anti-immigrant too?

But the ultimate blame lies with people like you who instead of being outraged at the killing of a human being for having a different view than you, you waste time criticizing the dead man's views and accusing him of being a racist and anti-immigrant. For crying out loud, the man was killed because of a movie he made for his immigrant friend from Somalia!

This is for future reference of mostly Muslims (but also anyone who might find themsleves equally intolerant and bloodthirsty), if you find yourself in disagreement with a movie, you have the option of not watching it. You do not have the right to kill the movie maker.

well i guess since the guy left the quran on the dead guy then it must be bad...better yet islam must be bad because everyone whos is muslim is killing ppl right?_________________iran iranam iraaanam
ke az to daram in jaanam
janam fadayat
mikhanam
payande baadi IRANam!!!!!!!

well i guess since the guy left the quran on the dead guy then it must be bad...

Wait a minute... he left a copy of the Quran on the dead body? I didn't hear about that. This is getting sicker by the minute.

Quote:

better yet islam must be bad because everyone whos is muslim is killing ppl right?

No. Only the really devout ones carry out the actual killings. The more "moderate" ones just sit by and quietly approve. Occassionaly, if they fear backlash against themselves, they might bother to send out a cold and insincere statement condeming the killings. But it's only to save their own skin. Even 9karevatan is more concerned about preserving the image of Islam than he is horrified about a person being murdered for making a movie! Oh no, don't say bad things about Islam. God forbid, if someone, somewhere thinks something that may not be entirely flattering to Islam. Not one of you will shed a tear for the guy who was murdered for expressing his views! It is shameful but not surprising.

Last edited by Azadeh_55 on Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total

Theo Van Gogh, you died but there are many more like you fighting to keep free speech alive. Your name will go down in history as the defender of freedom. It's better to die and say what you think than to live in silence out of fear of what these thugs might do to you. I'm not much of an artist so movies are out but this inspires me to write a book.

Pasagarde..you show a location of being here in the US..so by your train of thought..murdering a person.. while expressing free speech can be justified..you must have a heck of a list... for those that are next.. until Muslims understand this is complete and utter lunacy.. they will not be looked upon favorably..I'm not degrading your faith..but I m telling you this is wrong and will not be tolerated..period..._________________"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

he will be remembered as a man who defended his freedoms, tears have been shed for him by those whp love freedom - and smiles on the faces of the fundamentalists... Azadeh is right, disgust permeates the air these days. _________________"When on the battlefield if you have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, you will manifest martial valour. Furthermore if you are slain in battle you should be resolved to having your corpse facing the enemy" - Yamamoto tsunetomo

It seems that you do not understand the concept of free speech. It was his right to insult whomever and whatever he wants. No one had the right to kill him or even tell him to stop making his movies and express his views. True freedom only comes if you are allowed to say what other people don't want you to say. Otherwise it wouldn't be freedom if he only said things to please and appease everybody. Theo Van Gogh was not a racist and he did not hate immigrants. He was making a movie for a dutch MP who was AN IMMIGRANT FROM SOLAMIA! But even if he did hate immigrants; it gave no one any right to stop him from speaking his mind and certainly no right to kill him.

It seems the people of Netherlands have a right to be angry at their immigrant population. They come to their country; insult them and accuse them of being racists and then murder them for making movies. I know if a bunch of dutch people came to live in Iran and murdered our politicians and our movie makers, I'd be angry as hell.

The murderer is not the only one responsible for this killing. All those from the Muslim and immigrant community who demonize others for having different views share the blame. Why? Their ultimate goal was to kill Hirsi Ali. But she was in hiding and was getting protection from the police. So instead they opted for killing one of her friends who helped her make that movie. Why is Hirsi Ali, an immigrant from Somalia, in hiding? Why has she received death threats? Is she a racist anti-immigrant too?

But the ultimate blame lies with people like you who instead of being outraged at the killing of a human being for having a different view than you, you waste time criticizing the dead man's views and accusing him of being a racist and anti-immigrant. For crying out loud, the man was killed because of a movie he made for his immigrant friend from Somalia!

This is for future reference of mostly Muslims (but also anyone who might find themsleves equally intolerant and bloodthirsty), if you find yourself in disagreement with a movie, you have the option of not watching it. You do not have the right to kill the movie maker.

I am disgusted.

Of course Van Gogh had a right of free expression but his insults towards the migrants in an environment of racism facilitated anger and this had resulted in his murder by a crazy guy.

Of course people of the Netherlands (except a few good ones)' are to be blamed. After 30 years they do not want to accept that this country has changed ethnically and that the Turks and Moroccans should be treated as full citizens and not as allochtoon (official Dutch term used freely which means parasite).

In brief: The murdrer is responsible for his deed, but it was the racist environment in Holland which has led to this deed.

As for Ayaan Hirsi Ali: She is from a Low-class illiterate family from Somali and lived in Saudi Arabia for long time. She thinks that her own experience in Somalia and Saudi Arabia fits all migrants'. It is her problem, she can not diversify, she generalizes and it causes dislike and anger. The right wing politicians use her as a tool against the migrants and this makes her hated among the migrants._________________"May Ahura Mazda protect this land, this nation, from rancor, from foes, from falsehood, and from drought"

The murderer is ultimately responsible for his deed. But the thing is that the Fascist government and media in Holland did racist comments towards the migrants. No one stopped guys like van Ghogh. it was that he was hated. Now a Muslim fundamentalist killed him. If there was not such an environment this would have not happened.

He insulted Islam but moreover insulted the migrants on non-religious base. Now a fundamentalist killed him, because the other people were more civilized and did not want to murder, even if they had no fair power to respond van Gogh in the media

You must be shitting me! A muslim fundamentalist killed Van Ghogh for running his mouth but Van Ghogh and the Dutch government are the facists? Did you think this through before you wrote this piece? Muslim fundamentalists are the most extreme facist, oppressors and least tollerant of any group in the world. You got a huge set of nards on you buddy to push this kind of bullshit. Are you a islamofacist? Give me a break!_________________Liberalism is NOT a political philosophy.
It IS a MENTAL DISORDER! (Michael Savage)
Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.

[/quote]In brief: The murdrer is responsible for his deed, but it was the racist environment in Holland which has led to this deed.[quote]

Classic case of someone shitting on the sidewalk and blaming it on the dog! Fundamentalist Islam is what led to this deed. You really are not thinking this through. If I went around killing everyone whom I disagreed with and felt insulted by, there wouldn't be any politicians left in America.Or the world for that matter. Islamists are responsible for the disdain that most people feel for Islam. If they wouldn't go around killing everone who disagrees with them and shoving their beliefs down everyones throat, people wouldn't think they were a bunch of assholes._________________Liberalism is NOT a political philosophy.
It IS a MENTAL DISORDER! (Michael Savage)
Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.

Of course Van Gogh had a right of free expression but his insults towards the migrants in an environment of racism facilitated anger and this had resulted in his murder by a crazy guy.

Get it through you thick brain that he didn't insult any migrants. His movie was about the treatment of women in Islamic societies. It had nothing to do with immigration. It was about women in Islamic societies.

Quote:

Of course people of the Netherlands (except a few good ones)' are to be blamed. After 30 years they do not want to accept that this country has changed ethnically and that the Turks and Moroccans should be treated as full citizens and not as allochtoon (official Dutch term used freely which means parasite).

That's funny. I didn't know part of full citizenship rights was to shoot and stab film-makers whose movies you didn't enjoy.

Quote:

In brief: The murdrer is responsible for his deed, but it was the racist environment in Holland which has led to this deed.

What racist enviroment? I still have not seen anything that shows any form of racism. Some guy made a movie about the treatment of women in Islamic societies.

Quote:

As for Ayaan Hirsi Ali: She is from a Low-class illiterate family from Somali and lived in Saudi Arabia for long time. She thinks that her own experience in Somalia and Saudi Arabia fits all migrants'. It is her problem, she can not diversify, she generalizes and it causes dislike and anger. The right wing politicians use her as a tool against the migrants and this makes her hated among the migrants.

Am I reading these words correctly? Did you just write "she is from a low-class illiterate family from Somali"? This might just be the most bigoted statement I have heard in a conversation from anybody, ever. You rant and rave about Dutch racists this and Dutch racist that, but in reality you are the racist one. Stop calling everybody else racist. You have insulted Somalians, low-income families, people who are illiterate, and people who choose to go and live in Saudi Arabia. By your own logic, a lot of people have now the right to kill you. People like you make me sick.

eski wrote:

Quote:

If they wouldn't go around killing everone who disagrees with them and shoving their beliefs down everyones throat, people wouldn't think they were a bunch of assholes.

Dear friend, no one thinks Islamists are assholes. Michael Moore is an asshole. Islamists are evil and dangerous. This is a wake up call for all of you out there who think Islam can coexist with others peacefully. What we saw here was the scum spewing out from a brain that has been infested by Islam. You know they don't even try to hide it anymore. No more "taqqiyah". They just say whatever comes to their brains.

AMSTERDAM — Moroccan teenagers have allegedly spat on a large portrait of murdered Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, it was reported Thursday.

Shortly after Van Gogh’s murder on Tuesday, spray can and graffiti artist Donovan Spaanstra, 33, painted a portrait of the Dutch television celebrity and columnist on the facade of a building in the Warmoesstraat.

“For an artist, from an artist. Van Gogh has walked past here thousands of times,” Spaanstra told newspaper De Telegraaf.

Initially greeted by applause for painting the portrait, Spaanstra claimed some Moroccan teens then hassled him, screaming “Hamas, Hamas”. He claimed they even spat on the portrait and did not want to discuss the killing.

Van Gogh was shot and stabbed on Tuesday morning and police arrested a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan man in connection with the killing. Police are investigating his alleged links with Islamic fundamentalists.

You know maybe the painting of Van Gogh on the wall was a racist too. Muslims will be Muslims.

This Christmastime could be the moment when Western Europe finally joins our war on terrorism. Anti-Islamist fear and anger from the mouths of the European volk is breaking through the surface calm perpetuated by the elite European appeasers. The assassination and mutilation of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh by an Islamic fanatic — and the retaliatory firebombings of mosques by ethnic Dutchmen — have forced high European leaders and news outlets to begin to publicly face up to the implications of September 11, 2001 and the migration of Muslims in large and hostile numbers into the heart of Europe.

From Holland's leading newspaper, the Telegraaf, to Germany's liberal Berliner Zeitung and Der Spiegel (roughly, the European equivalents of the The New York Times, The Washington Post and Time Magazine) has come the same heated prose that could be found in the United States in the aftermath of September 11. And here in the United States, even the liberal National Public Radio Network's "All Things Considered" is beginning to seriously report European volkish fury the way they usually report breathlessly on the latest developments in Brazilian rainforest depletion.

Der Spiegel wrote: "The veil of multiculturalism has been lifted, revealing parallel societies where the law of the state does not apply." The Berliner Zeitung headlined their story: "Fear is spreading." In Holland the very dignified Telegraaf wrote: "magazines and papers which include incitements should be suppressed, unsuitable mosques should be shut down and imams who encourage illegal acts should be thrown out of the country." Earlier this week NPR's "All Things Considered" reported on the findings of German television's ZDF-TV after they had secretly placed a camera inside a German Islamic Mosque. The Imam is heard saying (in translation): "Those Germans, those atheists, they don't shave their armpits. Their sweat spreads evil smells. They stink. They are atheists. What good do they do to us? And since they are unbelievers, in the afterlife, they can only burn in hell." Obviously, this did not go down well when the German public saw and heard such things.

Later in the NPR report they quoted from other communications by German Islamists now being revealed to the German public. A teacher at the Riksdorfer Elementary School — a German government school that under German court ruling three years ago must teach its mostly Muslim students Muslim curriculum — read an anonymous letter he received: "Germany is an Islamic country. Islam is in the home, in schools. Germans will be outnumbered. We [Muslims] will say what we want. We'll live how we want. It's outrageous that Germans demand we speak their language. Our children will have our language, our laws, our culture."

It is just such inflammatory events that led Der Spiegel this week to report that "A debate on the integration of Muslims is raging in Germany." The article went on to report that: "Computer keyboards across the country are smoking as editorialists pontificate on the pros and cons of multiculturalism. It is heated and on the verge of becoming poisoned."

Heating the German national broth is the re-emergence of a call for German "Leitkultur," the term for the dominant and guiding culture. Der Spiegel quotes Christian Democratic leader Joerg Schoenbohm: "In the Middle Ages, ghettos were founded to marginalize the Jews. Today, some of the foreigners who live with us in Germany have founded their own ghettos because they scorn us Germans. Those who come here have to adopt the German Leitkultur. Our history has developed over a thousand years. We cannot allow that this basis of our commonality be destroyed by foreigners."

Edmund Stoibel, the Bavarian Christian Social Union's candidate for chancellor two years ago, said: "We have to defend the Christian tradition of our country." Even the Social Democrat Chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Schroeder, called for banning headscarves for schoolteachers in German public schools.

Meanwhile, the green/animal rights left of the European spectrum has started demonstrating against the Islamic Eid Al-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice, because it requires the throat-slitting of rams and lambs.

Italian police in the town of Luino recently had to break up the left-wing demonstrators as they confronted angry Muslim celebrants who were chanting "Allah- u Akhbar" in front of the Luino slaughterhouse.

In a recent article Chuck Colson quotes Bassam Tibi, a moderate Muslim leader in Germany: "Either Islam gets Europeanized or Europe gets Islamized." The speaker of the Dutch Parliament, Jozias van Aartsen, proclaimed two weeks ago that "The jihad has come to the Netherlands," while at a memorial to Mr. van Gogh a Dutch schoolteacher said that "This is not just a small event. It's part of the World Trade Center and Madrid. We must see this."

Yes, through the blinding smoke of Iraq and through the endless fuming of M. Chirac, the common people — the timeless volk — of Europe are beginning to see their true enemy — radical Islam. The will to survive and prevail is not yet spent in the hearts of our European cousins. They are late to the battle that is now raging. But they are not too late. The second great anti-fascist Euro-American alliance is now beginning to form on the foundation of our two common democratic peoples. Their spineless governments will follow, and will soon be run by fighting leaders uplifted from the ranks.

THIS PIEACE OF SHIITE NEEDS TO BE STUFFED BACK INTO THE SAME HOLE IT CAME OUT OF!
Throw these pieaces of **** out of Europe now before they cause more harm! Throw these malakh-khoors/tazi parasts back into the SHIITE hole they belong in!