Ground Zero Mosque

You've got people registering just to comment on your COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC AND IRRESPONSIBLE thread.

I see by your "modified by" date and times that you're coming back on and re-reading your comments. Really?!?! You think you're that intersting?

I think Scout posted a very interesting topic. The whole thread contains posts responding to that topic. If you don't like a certain post, you can always skip it, and go on to the next, because nobody is forcing you to read it. I fail to see how the thread is irresponsible....any subject is worthy of debate, and everyone has a right to state their opinion...or not.

I don't know if I agree with Pope that the nut-job that attacked a NYC taxi driver after asking him if he was a Muslim can be called an "American Terrorist" I just don't think it fits the definition. I do think that he is bigoted and perhaps even mentally unstable. What he did is not rational.

Terrorism always has as an end goal. The advancement of unpopular political or religious positions by force of intimidation and fear.

Pope, I hope that you understand that my position relates to those that are Militant or Radical in the promotion of their religion or beliefs. Regardless of the religion or belief. This thread just happens to discuss the Muslim faith as it pertains to the controversy surrounding the "Ground Zero" Mosque. I do not equate those that practice their chosen faith peacefully to those that would have others do so by force.

You've got people registering just to comment on your COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC AND IRRESPONSIBLE thread.

I see by your "modified by" date and times that you're coming back on and re-reading your comments. Really?!?! You think you're that intersting?

See Crazypup, I have two personality/character flaws. Well actually a lot more than 2, but only 2 pertain to your post. One is I always feel the need to have to explain myself to people who sometimes, most times, do not deserve an explanation. But I do always feel the need anyway since I know that since these are written words, sometimes a meaning may be misconstrued. In this particular instance, no meaning was misconstrued, but I felt the need to respond to you anyway. Like I said, a flaw. The second flaw I have is a huge pet peeve of words that are misspelled. I am proud of myself that I can spell very well. My grammar on the other hand could use a lot of help, but my spelling is perfect. I do, usually, proofread my posts before clicking the submit post button. Sometimes though, I do not. So sometimes, I will go back at a later time and check. So you may see in other threads where I have gone back and proofread. In cases like that, if a word is really botched, mostly due to typos , you will see this in that post;

It really has nothing to do with the fact that I think my posts here are so profound that they deserve to be read and re-read. It's just basically because a huge pet peeve of mine is misspelled words. As far as it being off topic well it is posted in the General section is it not? Taken from the main forum page;

General Attention!!! this section is for all off topic discussions. Feel free to discuss anything not involving dogs, start your own topic.

Personality flaw # 15 or 16, I forget where this one falls on my list, makes me advise you to take your own advice:

The fact of the matter is that if you don't like it....leave. Simple as that.

***Edited By: scout1 on 8/26/2010 2:33:49 PM***Reason: Just wanted to point out to Crazypup that the first "is" in his/her last paragraph in the New Mermber thread really should be an "in". Toodles....

Gee maybe now the Muslims know how the Jews feel........ This is the problem of a multicultural liberal socialist country. If you don't like the way things are here, go home. Remember, every single terrorist on those 9-11 planes were Muslims.No Christian Jew or atheist...just Muslims. And why can we have all this hurrahing from the media on the Muslim Mosque, but heaven forbid if there's a Menorah or Navitivity or children having a Christmas party. That goes for everyone else trying to change the US society from it's traditional CHRISTIAN heritage. It wasn't that long ago 90-95% of people were in Church every Sunday morning. Now they're in WalMart. I remember when stores were closed on Sunday,save maybe 7-11 or an occasional gas station. EVERYTHING was closed. We've turned our back on God who blessed this nation until the liberals and atheists kicked God out of our society, and yes, to be fair, the Christians should have fought this harder.......

My last post was sent from the Blackberry, which is why I kept it short and sweet. I would just like to add the following:

(First or second link from a quick Google search) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorismter·ror·ism /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show Spelled[ter-uh-riz-uhm] –noun 1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. 2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. 3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

World English Dictionary terrorism (ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm) —n 1. systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal 2. the act of terrorizing 3. the state of being terrorized

Perhaps you meant to convey that my usage of the word doesn't fit your preconceived embodiment of what a terrorist should be?

vegan: a person who abstains from consuming or using animal-derived foods or products, including meat, dairy, eggs, fur, leather, wool, etc.

QUOTE BY POPE 1982 "Perhaps you meant to convey that my usage of the word doesn't fit your preconceived embodiment of what a terrorist should be?"

No, not really my preconceived notion of anything. Just my understanding of the traditionally accepted definition.

I have not been able to discover anything in Mr. Enright's past that indicates he had any affiliation with any radical group that is in opposition to any Islamic organization. Nor have I been able to find that Mr. Enright has any profound ideology that is contra to Islam. I also cannot confirm that Mr Enright is trying to further the cause of any ideology or form of government. Any of these preconditions in conjunction with violent acts to further a cause is an accurate example of terrorism. Or perhaps more accurately stated, the historically accepted definition of terrorism.

What is clear is that Mr. Enright has perpetuated a violent crime. This act alone does not make the crime an act of terrorism.

You want to know what I think Pope? I think that Mr. Enright is a pathetic human being. I think Mr. Enright is either consumed with hate or passion or both and realized an opportunity to secure a pitiful 15 minutes of fame. I think that Mr. Enright is the embodiment of Envy. He wants to be relevant in some way because the reality of his life is that he is insignificant.

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one point Deputy.

"Sharif told authorities that during the trip Enright asked him whether he was Muslim. When he said yes, Enright pulled out a weapon — believed to be a tool with a blade called a Leatherman — and attacked him, Royster said.

After the assault, the driver tried to lock Enright inside the cab and drive to a police station, police said. The attacker jumped out a rear window about 15 blocks from where he hailed the cab, they said."

This was calculated, there was clearly intent, motive and he attempted to evade authorities. This is not a person who suffers from insanity, this was a person who found some liquid courage and carried out his cowardly act of terrorism.

"Michael Enright once volunteered with an interfaith group that has supported a proposal for a mosque near ground zero" Kind of reminds me of someone trying to blend, then getting their pilot's license to make a statement by way of terrorism about a religion or way of life they didn't agree with

I am just glad this turd has been outed and will be prevented from hurting anyone further.

vegan: a person who abstains from consuming or using animal-derived foods or products, including meat, dairy, eggs, fur, leather, wool, etc.

This came to me this morning in an Email. I had seen this commentary before but it just didn't click until I saw it again. Not only do I think is relevant to this discussion, it also brings to light comparisons and double standards that have not yet been discussed.

There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over.

The proposed "Cordoba House" overlooking the World Trade Center site – where a group of jihadists killed over 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks - is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example, most of them don’t understand that “Cordoba House” is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex.

Today, some of the Mosque’s backers insist this term is being used to "symbolize interfaith cooperation" when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way.

Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for "religious toleration" are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City. Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia. In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca.

And they lecture us about tolerance.

If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign.

We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history.

Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources.

America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could.

"...The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over."

If you do, then I can only share with you my understanding of this excerpt since it is part of an editorial by Newt Gingrich.

My take on this is that Islamist or Muslims insist that we of other faiths be tolerant and accommodating of Islam. To the point that if Muslims want to erect a Mosque within earshot of the ruins of the World Trade Towers, we Americans must capitulate. But if we of any Christian faith demand that Islam reciprocate by allowing the practice of our faith or the establishment of any building to do so in an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia, then the response is, go piss up a rope. I think this is what Newt meant by a double standard.

That is what I was referring to. I am having a hard time disagreeing with anything Mr. Gringrich said but I am a little unsure I would use the phrase double standard when talking about their intolerance of other religions. If they had a Constitution in their country as we do in ours that provided freedom of religion to those living in their country, and they would not allow Christian or Jewish churches and synagogues(SP?) to be built then I could see the double standard. Rather I think they are using our Constitution against us for their own benefit/agenda.

In one of the links I provided it said that they cannot even wish us a Merry Christmas because that would be allowing us to continue believing in a false religion and they should not let us go on believing that way. The only way they would be forgiven by Allah for wishing us a Merry Christmas is if they thought they would come to serious harm by us if they did not. That is seriously messed up and that mentality is not just the terrorist mentality. That is what all Muslims are being told, including the peace loving ones.

If you guess a small decorated Christmas tree and Christmas presents, you would be right because it was a Christmas/New Years party at my in-laws.

They actually have a large home and had more than one Christmas tree. I was wished happy holidays and exchanged gifts, that must have been an elaborate ruse to use us for our gifts though since you can tell by looking at these photos they are clearly struggling financially.

Pope I am really not interested in arguing with you over what your extended family does or does not do. I am sure they are great people. I'm sure even you understand that one Muslim family out of millions may not be an accurate representation of the entire religion/culture. Just as 1 viscious Rottweiler does not represent the personality of the breed as a whole. What I was referring to was taken directly from an Islamic website. It wasn't something I made up or an American's translation of their beliefs.

" Congratulating the Christians on their festivals is a dangerous trend headed by some of those who are attributed to Da‘wah (Islamic propagation) and knowledge. They appear before the world in the media, newspapers and satellite channels congratulating Christians on their special occasions and sharing in their Christmas celebrations under the pretext of "respecting the other", "coexistence of religions", "diversity of civilizations", as well as similar terms which aim at establishing equality between Islam and Christianity, Judaism and other beliefs.

This is also forbidden when the intention behind it is based on compliments and flattery. It is impermissible to deceive them so that they falsely believe that they are following a true religion. Rather, it is obligatory to make them feel that they are following a false religion, no matter how strong they are. It is obligatory to openly indicate this whenever there is an opportunity. Consequently, when they ask why you do not celebrate their festivals with them and congratulate them just as they do with you, the answer should be: We do not do so because our religion prevents us from doing that, and you are following a false religion. This should be said to them with true devotion and sincerity, with the intention of saving them from the punishment of Allaah The Almighty. Muslims should show love of goodness for them to be safe from this deviation and enjoy a good life while worshipping only one God, with neither partners beside Him nor children, and call to Islam with mercy and kindness. There is only one exceptional case where participating and congratulating them is permissible: It is when a Muslim lives among them and fears harm if he does not do that. In this case, he is blameless and even rewarded by Allaah The Almighty (for the affliction he undergoes). This is the same ruling of the one who is forced or compelled to do that. Nevertheless, there are many Muslims who live among non-Muslims and do not celebrate their festivals with them or congratulate them and they are afflicted with no harm for obvious reasons. Celebrating the festivals of non-Muslims and congratulating them is prohibited not only because of their false belief, but even if they are following the true religion with which ‘Eesa, may Allaah exalt his mention, was sent. This is because Allaah The Almighty sent Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, with the last religion to all people. Assuming that there are some nations who are following the true religions of their Prophets, with neither distortion nor alteration, they are required to abandon their religions and follow the Sharee‘ah (Islamic legislation) of Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. Even if there had been other Prophets during his lifetime or next to him, they would have been required to follow him. Allaah The Almighty took the covenant of the Prophets on this, the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, verbally expressed it, and ‘Eesa, may Allaah exalt his mention, will follow him when he descends (shortly before the Last Day). It has been proved that embracing Christianity is prohibited, either because it is distorted or because Islam has abrogated it, if we assume that it is not distorted. Christianity is a false religion and it is impermissible to follow it, and its festivals are likewise false and innovated. Consequently, Muslims are not permitted to celebrate these festivals with them or congratulate them because they are false and based on false beliefs."

Oh, I think this is exactly what you were interested in. This thread was started for just this purpose, to debate, so I will throw in my real life experiences into this thread amongst the imagined ones and things read somewhere on the Internet. As far as it being one good Muslim family, again, how very presumptuous of you. We know several Muslim families who have far better manners and people skills than most of the people in this thread. (not including the posters who respectfully relayed their opinions in an intelligent manner and moved on before making an embarrassment of themselves) Tell me you realize there are abillions of Muslim people in the world spread across nearly every continent, of that number, how many are American although Islam is often associated with Arab and the Middle East, fewer than 15% of Muslims are Arab. I suppose all of "the good ones" should be discredited because it's "just one Muslim family"... well if you passed first grade math, you learned how to count and that if you add 1+1+1+1 it will add up pretty quickly. Suicidal, hateful Muslims make up such a small speck of the Muslim population.

What is the big deal about what I just read from the link you provided? It is similar to what I read another Christian in this thread saying and another site saying, "the religion ________ is false because it is not ________." (fill in the blanks with whatever imaginary man you want to). That is kind of "the thing" with religion... pick a team, right? Sounds a lot nicer to me than "Muslim's were sent from Satan." So if this is the logic, that mindset is so terrible, the Christians, Jewish people, atheists, Catholics etc. who do not believe the Muslim religion and it's holidays, are not be trusted as peaceful? Remind me again of the point you were trying to make was?

I'd also like to say, congratulations we've now sunk to a new low in this pathetic excuse for a thread in comparing humans to canines.

Here is a link for all you Internet link loving-conspiracy theorist folk who seem to think there is a double standard regarding religion in Islamic countries http://www.allaboutturkey.com/religioussites.htm as of 2009, there were 74 million Mulsims in Turkey.

***Edited By: pope1982 on 8/29/2010 11:31:17 AM***Reason: add

vegan: a person who abstains from consuming or using animal-derived foods or products, including meat, dairy, eggs, fur, leather, wool, etc.

First of all very beautiful pictures of you and your family God bless you and your family

I want to express my thoughts and I wil not write any more on this issue (1) USA is the best country in the world I am a christian and I consider my self as born again I love Jesus and worship him I do not disrespect Islam or any other religion . It is wrong to think others or their faith are inferior A christian dwelling in holy sprit will not be hostile to others I love USA and I am a proud US Citizen eventhough I was not born here like you or many people in this Forum There are lots of freedom in USA compare to any other countries in the World People do not kill each other because we all look different ( color of skin , personalities and so on) Look what happened in Kosovo, Serbia or Rwanda. People were nuts some years back. They were killing each other . Millions of Tutsis were killed by Hutus. In Kosovo thousands od Albanians were massacred by Serbs You do not see this in USA . Many people who were born in many many different countries live here in Peace This is the Country where we all have freedom unlike any other countries in the World Thank God we do not live in Saudi Arabia or Iran .People are killed and prosecuted for their faith and freedom of speech

(2) I oppose mosque close to World Trade center

I remember 9/11

I took the path train to World Trade center . I was working at Wall Street It was the last train that day Thay cancelled all trains after this I saw the destruction . I was standing infront of St Pauls Church . I saw many people jumping from the world trade center and died I saw when the second plane hit . Like so many people I ran for my life . Some one stepped on my shoes and I ran without shoes . I still remember a dead body ( must have been thrown from the impact when 2nd plane hit ) It was a sad day for all Americans regardless of race or color

There are muslims also died on this terrible tragedy The terrorists( scumbags) who did this can not be considered as humans Even animals have heart but not these scunks

Unfortunatley these terrorists call them as Followers of Islam I am sure many men and women who follow Islam do not agree with them. I have met muslims who are so wonderful people and They condone this like all of us The point here is people did not forget 9/11 yet . There are also muslims who do not want the mosque to be built close to Ground Zero . It is unnecessary it will create problems Why can not they build mosque some where else not close to World Trade center I think a True American patriot who is a muslim ( follow Islam) will prefer not to build it close to Ground Zero because it could hurt the victims of world trade center ( 90% of people died are not followers of Islam)

you seems to take this thread way too personally. No one is saying all Muslims are intolerant radical terrorists.

Arabs and Turks are completely different groups with completely different mind set. The Turks are the least of the world's worries. their reign of terror was over almost a century ago. In fact, Turkey is one of the few democratic Islamic countries where the separation of religion and state and freedom of religion is mandated by law. Because of that, their westernized culture is much more open and tolerant to other religions and cultures. Unfortunately, you can't say that about most of the other Islamic countries, especially the Arab countries where the Qur'an is the law. If the rest of the Muslim world was like Turkey, we wouldn't have had any problems with Islam.

So when you keep using your in laws as an example of good Muslims, they are not really a good indicator of the rest of the Muslim world and the good people behind this mosque that want us converted or dead. They (the Turks) are however a good example of how Islam and the western world can coexists when religion is kept out of politics and the strict Islamic law is not shoved down the throats of the non believers. But even there radicalism is spreading slowly but surely. so their attitudes to the west may finally change soon as well

The essence of hypocrisy is the tendency to make an exception of oneself.