Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

If I may state at this point also, one would 1discovery been complete, and I am going to submit her 2discovery was incomplete, any correspondence that she 3might have had or any communications she might or might 4not have had with the publishers' concerns, St Martins 5Press, or with the people who were putting pressure on the 6publishers, because the Second Defendant was certainly 7instantly quoted as an authority on the reasons why the 8book should be suppressed 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, but you are entitled to make applications for 10discovery, but let us focus on your evidence. If you want 11to make that application we can deal with that at the 12beginning or the end of the day 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not an application, my Lord, it is an allegation. 14I was informed by the second Defendants' lawyers when your 15Lordship will have seen that I succeeded in obtaining an 16order that the Second Defendant should be required to 17swear a list on affidavit. When that occurs, as your 18Lordship is aware, I am not allowed to go behind the 19affidavit until the trial of the action. I was repeatedly 20reminded of this by the defendants' solicitors, who said 21you will be able to cross-examine Professor Lipstadt when 22the time comes, on her affidavit, and, of course, now we 23will not 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 25A.
[Mr Irving]
That is not the last time I shall refer to that, my Lord. 26I find it an unfortunate state of affairs

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1 So the book anyway in the United States did not 2appear. The just proceeds of that book not appearing were 3denied to me. But not only the just proceeds of that book 4but as it seems now all future books, because all the 5publishers with whom I previously dealt in the United 6States have pointed to that episode in grief and terror 7and said we cannot afford that to happen to us. The 8chairman of the St Martin's Press was obliged to resign 9six weeks later over the scandal and nobody wanted to go 10through that again 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. So that is your evidence about the effect of what 12has been published by these Defendants. Now -- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Specific details, yes, my Lord, of course, there is a 14long-term effect in this country as well 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- describe that 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The book, which has been published by the First and Second 17Defendants has been not just sold through the normal 18outlets, it has been placed on the Internet on two 19different website locations. I have no way of knowing 20whether they are active participants in that or not 21because we cannot cross-examine them on that. I, the 22Defendant, but the book has been made available in other 23words to 200 million Internet users. They can download it 24free, the entire book, and review probably regardless of 25whatever injunction your Lordship sees fit to make at the 26end of this trial that book will continue in perpetuity in

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1cyber space. The book has been donated to very large 2numbers of university libraries around the world. One of 3my correspondents at the University of Durham has found no 4fewer than three copies in Durham University library with 5library plate gummed into the front saying "donated by 6Friends of Durham University History Society". There is 7no such Society. So it has been actively propagated by 8who knows whom. The book is relied on as a source. It is 9an authoritative source by people who wish to attack me 10further. So it has an ongoing rolling effect far beyond 11the effect it has just on the one customer who picks it up 12at his local Barns & Noble or Waterstones bookshop, my 13Lord. 14 Of course, the book is a very much more serious 15libel -- vehicle for a libel then a newspaper. When 16newspapers have libeled me or defamed me in the past and 17people have come to me wringing their hands in grief as 18you will see from one of the speeches I made. I said, fear 19not because today is already Monday and what appeared 20yesterday is already wrapping fish and chips or being 21flushed down the drains in some paper processing plant. 22Whereas books go into libraries. 23 But simultaneously, as your Lordship will have 24seen from the witness statement of Professor Evans, when 25he went to the British Library and asked to obtain a copy 26of my book he was told that it had mysteriously been put

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1in the pornographic book section and was not freely 2available. The book which I have on the desk in front, my 3book "Hitler's War". 4 It is quite ingenious campaign, my Lord, I would 5aver that on the one side my book is being suppressed and 6squirreled away, hidden out of sight so people cannot see 7what I actually wrote. Pressure is put on publishers so 8they do not publish my books and simultaneously a campaign 9is launched by very well qualified writers and very gifted 10writers, armed with ammunition from all around the world 11in an attempt to defame me which I then cannot answer. 12 Has your Lordship further questions on ---- 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Not on that aspect, and I do not want to impose any kind 14of rigid pattern to your evidence if you do not want it to 15emerge in that way 16A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I find it is very useful that you ask me these 17questions because it is like an examination in chief 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I hoped you might. Yes, that is what it is really intended 19to be. What I was going to suggest you deal with now, is 20the plea of justification because that is obviously the 21main issue. If it is not inconvenient to you it would be 22most helpful to me if you were to deal perhaps quite 23briefly with the various allegations that are put against 24you in the Defendant's summary of case, because I think 25everybody agrees that superseded the original defence, we 26discussed that at pretrial review

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think it is a convenient summary of the allegations that 3are made against you and can you deal with it briefly or 4at greater length. It is a matter for you. I have no 5doubt you will be cross-examined about it anyway, but 6would it be appropriate to go through -- 7A.
[Mr Irving]
If I can find it in this bundle 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- the topics. I have it in a separate file. I do not 9know whether if you have it in the same form I have, the 10Defendant's summary of case 11MR RAMPTON: We have it. Does your Lordship have it in a 12separate file 13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That may be something I did and have 14forgotten about. 15MR RAMPTON: It is in the pale green thing 16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got it 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I have the summary of the Defendants case, yes 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, as you recall it is divided into sections, and the 19first section, which is quite a short one, is the 20allegation that is made against you by the Defendants that 21you are what is called a "Holocaust denier" 22A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I think I led, or at any rate I gave my reply to 23that allegation in my opening statement yesterday at some 24length, and I am not sure there is very much more I can 25add to that in chief, so to speak. Perhaps the ---- 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can I just put a little bit of flesh on the bones of that