>>5188560I didn't even know this existed until recently. I got Shiren the Wanderer for Wii and it was pretty good. I didn't realise that hard mode made you lose all your items so after dying later in the game I didn't continue playing.

If you have played the Wii version would you say this version is just as good if not better? If it's not as good I'll just pick up the Wii version again and play on normal mode.

>>5189343Naw as amazing as it is, it's actually only on the border of really being a roguelike. But that's one of the reasons it's so good. The real roguelike genre is pretty niche and unappealing to many gamers. So one's reaction to Shiren can indicate whether they'd like to delve deeper into them or go more for the roguelite genre of which there are tons now.

>>5189847It's possible to play it like a traditional roguelike, but it doesn't have true permadeath and you can basically brute force the game by making a +30 master sword and shield and gathering a huge accumulation of pots full of items that lets you breeze through the game.

That doesn't make it bad, genre distinctions aren't value judgements, but it is one of the things that puts in on the border or roguelikes and their close cousin genre roguelites/roguelikelikes

Most of the other Mystery Dungeon games that Chunsoft went on to make like Chocobo, Pokemon etc are entirely roguelites.

>>5189964It being a core part of the game changes the genre. There are only a handful of core aspects that make something a roguelike. Permadeath is one of the big ones. You can play Final Fantasy while ignoring the ability to save your game, it doesn't make it any more of a roguelike.

Anyways this just goes to my original statement about how it's a great starter game. If you play it and ache for more then there's a whole genre of roguelikes out there.

But if you liked the idea yet found it too hard or repetitive or something and just used the warehouse but still had fun then there's also a whole genre of roguelites to delve into.

>>5189432That's the fun part about him. He sucks on pretty much every game they challenge him to play, but with dedication, a bit of luck and some help here and there, he often manages to overcome his obstacles. But perhaps you already did know that stuff; some time has passed since i've watched that episode, but iirc it was one of those cases that he beat the game even though the situation was desperate, so yes, he gets better in part 2.

>>5189959Shiren has dungeons where you can't bring anything in and lose everything when you die. The jRPG part of it is just sort of like another game layered on the roguelike bones that are already there.

>>5191497Those are extra modes you unlock after beating the main game. So it might be fair to say there are traditional roguelikes availible to you as bonus dungeons in the game. But that is also the case for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon.

Again that's not a bad thing about the game, It's a great game partially because it does appeal to both tastes. It's also important to note that roguelites aren't a lesser type of game than roguelikes, they're just very different and usually people like one or the other, rarely both equally.

Permadeath has nothing to do with whether a game is a roguelike or isn't. It's absurd for a game to change genre based on a small feature such as warehouses. The core gameplay is the same as Rogue: tile-based turn-based RPG dungeon crawling.It's not like you can add permadeath and random levels to Mario and suddenly it's a roguelike. It's still a platformer. It's a platformer whether you have one life, or limited lives, or infinite lives. These are secondary elements.If you were to play a mod of Nethack where the levels are the same every time, and you can continue after death, would that not still be a roguelike? What if you were playing this mod without knowing it? You would think that you're playing a roguelike, and after you die, the game would reveal that you weren't playing a roguelike the whole time. Do you really believe in a definition where something like this is possible?I can't agree with a genre definition that groups Shiren with games like Spelunky. Spelunky, Risk of Rain, Isaac, etc., play completely differently from Rogue(and each other), but Chunsoft's games clearly operate under the same rules as Rogue. I don't mean to shit on these games(I have hundreds of hours in each of the games I've mentioned), but to me there is a clear divide between them and Shiren.

>>5192146>Permadeath has nothing to do with whether a game is a roguelike or isn't.

It's literally one of the key features. I'm not even bothering to read the rest of your post but this has come up here before. If you're interested in learning what a roguelike is then here's some reading. Otherwise don't waste all our time spewing random thoughts about things you're unaware of.

>>5192150Dumbass. Don't respond if you won't read.Berlin Interpretation is garbage, too. "used to determine how roguelike a game is." What a joke. Oh, how roguelike is DCSS? 90%? How roguelike is Bubble Bobble? 20%?

>>5192284Why don't you enlighten a poor retard, then? How is permadeath a core feature if you can play the game for hours, unaware of it until the game is over?I can't play through Castlevania thinking it's a platformer, only for it to reveal itself to be a first-person shooter. I really don't get it. A game doesn't change genre based on what happens when you lose.

The problem is this happens every couple of months where some idiot (or the same one) comes along complaining that they don't want to bother understanding why the deffinition is the way it is and why each aspect is important. They just argue about what they think it should be and then demand everyone else bends over backwards to explain it while they disagree and argue about every little thing. At this point if someone is too dumb to understand it on their own I just mock them. Sorry if this applies to you.

>>5192146Neither Spelunky, Risk of Rain or Isaac are traditional roguelikes at all by the way. The first two are action platformers with some roguelike elements, Isaac is also an action game and was designed to be Zelda dungeons with roguelike elements.

>>5194659I won't bother to learn all the details for something I don't care that much.From what I could tell when looking it up, for people to consider something to be a "roguelike" it has basically to be exactly like the handful of games that created the genre. From the core mechanics to the graphics and every little fucking detail.In short, nothing can be considered a roguelike because people enjoy being anal. So I just call things roguelites to avoid entering a discussion that will go nowhere.

>>5194706You're so close to understanding. Roguelikes and RPGs are very different genres, despite having some similarities. It's a little like mistaking a beat 'em up for a fighting game because punching, or thinking After Burner is a flight sim because you fly a plane.

>>5194659Do you have any reading comprehension? I directly state that Spelunky and the others play completely differently from Rogue.So far you've entirely ignored my arguments and questions, and instead just told me that your way of thinking is right. Again, why reply to me? It's impossible to change anyone's mind or learn anything if you just say "I'm right and you're wrong". What do you stand to gain from acting this way?

>>5195541>I directly state that Spelunky and the others play completely differently from Rogue.

Exactly. Which is why if you read the set of deffinitions and used your brain for even a moment you would be able to conclude they're obviously not actually roguelikes. Which is what I was trying to explain. So okay, once more with feeling.

A roguelike is a game like Rogue. If you look at the deffinition you'll see that the high value elements are all the core elements of Rogue's gameplay. It's really hard, easy to die and you only get once chance and no saves. But it's also turn based so you have time to consider each move before you make it and the options at your disposal are fairly complex so you have various ways to escape trouble. Then each time you play, the dungeon and items are different so even though you could easily die hundreds times trying to win (I sure did) It's always a fresh experience.

Those are considered the high value elements because they all work together to create a unique experience of a game. Generally the closer a game holds to those the more of a roguelike it is. Again, not a value judgment just a description, and even within those confines, there have been a ton of games and will be loads more.

But that's not to say it's also not good to try some roguelike elements and toss them into another genre. It's how Diablo came about after all.

>>5195561That's why skill is usually shown by wins in a row not solitary achievements. Like looping shmups I guess.

>>5195812I'm not saying that Spelunky is a roguelike. What made you come to that conclusion? I'm saying that Shiren, PMD, and Chunsoft's other games are roguelikes, unlike Spelunky and those games.Shiren plays just like Rogue. I don't see how just because there are warehouses, it ceases to be a roguelike.To me, the turn-based and grid-based nature are the core of the genre, not permadeath and random levels. Sure, these elements work extremely well in a roguelike, but they aren't a requirement.If you added cross-playthrough warehouses to Angband, it wouldn't be a roguelike by your definition. How does such a small mechanic change a game's genre? You're doing the same things, moving around on a grid, fighting enemies, picking up items, and so on, but you say it's a different genre because of one secondary mechanic.Why not draw the line somewhere else? For example, why not claim a game needs potions, scrolls, and wands to be a roguelike? Or that it needs an identification system to be a roguelike? Or that it needs a hunger clock? These are all mechanics that work well in roguelikes and that most roguelikes have, but would the lack of one of these mechanics disqualify a game for you?What features do you consider required for a roguelike? The "high value factors" of the Berlin Interpretation? In that case, DCSS wouldn't be a roguelike. DCSS has a separate menu for shops, so it wouldn't be non-modal. The Berlin Interpretation is just an old list of roguelike tropes, not a definition.A game can't be "more of a roguelike". What's more of a roguelike, Brogue or IVAN? A game is a roguelike or it isn't, with very few games coming close to treading the line.

>>5195889>Or that it needs an identification system to be a roguelike?I wish this was more common in roguelites, honestly. Trying to figure out what the fuck you're hauling around without getting yourself killed is the most interesting part of these games.

>>5195889>I don't see how just because there are warehouses, it ceases to be a roguelike.

I never said it wasn't a roguelike. In fact I specifically said it is considered a roguelike but it does have a few features that put it on the border, like the various progression systems built into it. And remember I mentioned that as a GOOD thing.

Is Shiren a roguelike? Deffinitely. Is it "100% roguelike" as one poster said? Not quite because the main game has progress that carries between playthroughs. And if you actually READ THE DESCRIPTION in the link I posted you would understand that. But as I already said, you have no interest in trying to understand, just argue. Like this.

>To me, the turn-based and grid-based nature are the core of the genre, not permadeath and random levels.

I'm not here to argue with you because you want the deffinition to be different. If you don't like it because you still can't understand why it is the way it is I don't care. This is why I don't waste my time and just make fun of you now.

All three are in the genre but Brogue and Ivan are "more of a roguelike" than Shiren and Shiren in turn is "more of a roguelike" than Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. I would say, "get it now?" Because it's so simple. But I know you don't and this will probably just end up confusing you more lol.

>>5196556I ask "how many factors" to show you how flawed the Berlin Interpretation is. How many roguelike points does something need to be a roguelike?According to your roguelike points system, Isaac is more of a roguelke than PMD? A real-time twin-stick shooter is more of a roguelike than a turn-based grid-based RPG?

>>5197979PMD is a roguelike. The central mechanics are the same as Rogue. Yet, apparently, it's less of a roguelike than an action game.Why don't you tell me how many factors a game needs to be a roguelike? What's the difference between a major factor and a minor factor?

>>5198067I already made the mistake of trying to explain it to you and you proved yourself completely unable to to understand. You said it yourself, why should I continue to waste my time on someone like you?

>>5198129When did you explain anything to me? All you've done is tell me that I know nothing and post information from the Berlin Interpretation, which I've already read and think is horseshit. You haven't elaborated further or answered any of my questions.You can't answer my question of how many factors because your way of thinking is so deeply flawed.

>>5198157Here >>5195812And yes, the berlin interpretation lays out really well what the core elements of a roguelike are, because that was the whole point of the conference. The lead creators of this genre all had a long discussion and distilled what the key features that make a game a roguelike are.

But you, being a stupid impetuous child assumed initally that a roguelike is probably just an rpg with some random bullshit and refuse to ever think or learn beyond that.

You can also listen to Roguelike Radio who did an excellent episode on what roguelikes are, but it's the same thing and so would probably just confuse you.

>>5198168In your post, you just restate the Berlin Interpretation. You haven't explained beyond that, which is what I've asked for.If I refuse to think or learn, why have I asked so many questions?Darren Grey of Roguelike Radio wrote an article called Screw the Berlin Interpretation. Why endorse the podcast when it actually runs counter to your beliefs? I've listened to that episode before, but I'll check it out again, just for you.Lol is not a number, sorry.

>>5198202Anon words are something you use to convey meaning to others and their content is dependent on precedent. The precedent here is that it's only a roguelike if it's turn-based, you have to start over without the resources and powers you gained when you die (the only tool you're allowed to transfer is your brain,) and the levels that you challenge are randomly/procedurally generated (because it's not about memorization). This is because at their core roguelikes are about making risk-reward decisions on the spot and gambling on the potential future using your wit and knowledge alone. They are about immediate tactical circumstances and how they impact the long strategy of the obstacles you know or can predict you'll have to face later, which exist as challenge puzzles in a shuffled deck that itself represents a situation you are not entirely sure how prepared you'll be for when you actually face it.

You cannot beat a roguelike by "getting good" or "becoming skilled" or "memorizing the game" or "learning muscle memory", you can only win by "being smart" and making smart decisions.

This is why being modal and only breaking the modal nature by using context menus is something considered to be a pseudo-requirement, it doesn't change the inherent nature of the gameplay if the game is still turn-based but includes a gambling den or a large scale military engagement (note to self: make a roguelike with large scale military engagements between dungeons).

On the other hand if the game is not turn based but real time or involves action, then you don't necessarily have to exclusively make tactical brain decisions to win, you could improve your odds by reflex or practice or skill. If the game lets you grind and enhance your abilities so that you have a better set of options or bonuses the next time you start, then that subverts the tactical gameplay by letting you decrease the difficulty through perseverance (i.e. the game is for stupid babies who need training wheels).

>>5198202I describe why the berlin interpretation came to be the way it is by showing how it's core elements relate to rogue and how it's the combination of them that makes the genre dustinct. And yes Darren did write that, if you choose to actually read it you would get the title better.

I don't actually care if you never understand, but it's astounding how someone can be as dense as you are.

>>5198224Which is not to say that we aren't all stupid babies for even playing videogames in the first place, this is simply why when a game has elements of roguelikes, but breaks the fundamental underlying spirit of the fact that>you die when you're killedand>dying means losing everything, and you can only start overand in some sort of buddhist or hindu spiritual paradigm>even if you get a second chance that doesn't mean anything should be easier, unless you yourself are wiserwe don't call them roguelikes anymore, we call them "roguelites" or sometimes even "a JRPG or ARPG or (insert genre) with roguelike elements"

they are softer versions of roguelikes that permit you to win by any means other than sheer wisdom and grit, and if you call them roguelikes you will make wolf girl sad

>>5198224>>5198241No matter what happens when you die, the way you interact with the game's world is the same. That interaction defines the genre for me, not an underlying spirit or philosophy.The way I think about genre is incompatible with the way you do. Yet, I think I can understand where you're coming from. Thanks.

>>5198324If you already understood you wouldn't be asking me all these retarded questions. Other people even chimed in and you still don't get it. It's just "I'm stupid! SPOONFEED ME OR I'LL INSIST THAT MY CLUELESS ASSUMPTIONS MUST BE OBJECTIVE TRUTH!!!!"

>No matter what happens when you die, the way you interact with the game's world is the same.

>>5198408How many times will you respond with a message entirely consisting of calling me an idiot? I'm still not seeing how many roguelike points a game needs to be a roguelike. Does your keyboard not have numbers on it?>>5198436Never said I believe that.

>>5198324Not him but if you're asking which of the big things like permadeath, turn based, random levels etc, they are all important. Like someone else said, that's all Diablo was. Change it to action based and it's a different genre.

>>5198448Pretty much this >>5198452Shiren's main mode doesn't have true permadeath but in most other respects it fits so it's generally considered a rougelike. (though I've met RL fans who disagree)

It's not just the list of attributes that's important, it's how they interact with each other to produce a certain kind of gameplay experience that matters.

So take difficulty, it doesn't seem like it should matter that much, but if the game is too easy it negates the roll some of the other features like permadeath and being turn based play in creating the overall experience.

>>5198571So, your answer is all of the factors? Excluding non-modal or not?Your idea of roguelike seems to be based on overall experience and feeling. I believe Darren Grey feels the same way. This is what I've wanted to hear from you, your actual thoughts instead of insults and Berlin Interpretation.

>>5198639Non-modal is fairly important too, though as you see there are games that have modes of different aspects. However if you took say Nethack and changed it so engaging a monster switched the game to an rpg style battle screen where you did the fight before returning to the dungeon map that would have huge implications for how the game plays and it may or may not still be considered a roguelike by most.

The reason I keep pointing you towards the berlin interpretation is that even though it maynot be perfect ( you should really read that article by Darren if you haven't yet) it does a good job of laying out the basic elements. It all seems very simple and straightforward to me, but Rogue was one of my favorite games growing up and It's children the rougelikes are neck and neck with fighters as by far my favorite genres overall.

What's the deal with the fortune teller in this game? If she says it's going to be cold winds should I just quit and start again? Does anyone know what the fortunes affect? This game is kicking my ass.

>>5200815The last time I looked into it there wasn't much consensus. Some say it's make or break and bad wind means you're doomed, others insist he just says something random to fuck with your head. I suspect it might be random because it lets you return and get a new fortune if you want, but it could also be another thing Chunsoft put in to let you game the system. I never talk to him because if I have bad luck I'd rather not know and when I do win I don't like to think it's just because the RNG was nice to me. Though one of my problems is that Shiren can feel like playing a slot machine that takes hours to tell you if you won.

>>5198312It's the constant threat of death along with knowing that every decision you make is permanent and one wrong move means you lose everything. That makes you interact with the game in a very different way than many games when you can try something out and then load up a save if things went badly.

>>5204060I've haven't played it so I can't really say one way or the other but from what I've read it sounds fairly roguelikey but also like it's based around progression elements and building a better deck with repeated plays which is not very roguelikey. That's an aspect of almost all studio developed games these days with a roguelike inspiration though.

It's important to note though that whether a game ends up falling under the category of traditional roguelike, roguelite or roguelike-mixed-with-whatever (Spelunky, BoI etc) doesn't really matter other than for categorization purposes. A "real" roguelike can still be a shitty game just as easily as any other genre and there have been a bunch of blended genre games that are excellent (as well as a bunch that suck)

>>5204150The progression elements only unlock more cards that can potentially appear during a game. It's similar to item unlocks in Isaac, but the new cards are balanced unlike most of Isaac's unlockables. For most of the game, you'll be playing with every card unlocked, the system is mostly to make the game less complex for beginners. The deck you build is only for that particular run, there's no way to carry cards into a new playthrough.I've played about 60 hours of it, I like it a lot even though I'm not big on card games. I don't consider it a roguelike at all because the core mechanics are so different. There's no grid or any kind of positioning, the inventory only holds potions and only 3 of them, there aren't character stats, and so on.In terms of 'roguelike spirit', I think it would be considered a roguelike. But, I don't consider this classification useful. If I hear "roguelike", I picture a game that plays like Rogue, Nethack, Angband, and games like that. I don't think about the design philosophy behind the game.

>>5204604I don't think the system can be patented. Plenty of games came out before Shiren with the same system. It's just that consoles don't have very many of these games.Dragon Crystal and Fatal Labyrinth were both released before Shiren. Azure Dreams and Izuna were both released after and I don't think either had to deal with licensing.

>>5204604dude spikechun actually develops those games for the publishers who own the properties because their genre is like a cult classic in the japanese games industry that gets memed in manga and shit (though less often than even a SaGa game would)

>>5204345I gotta say from your description and what I read that game does sound like a lot of fun. I'm very happy to hear the card progression is more of a teaching tool to get you into the full game. Progression is a thing that seeps into many genres these days but I feel it especially hurts roguelikes.

As for whether it's a " real roguelike" no, but probably "roguelike card game" would fit. The Same way I think "platformer roguelike" fits for Spelunky or "arpg roguelike" for Isaac. It's about as good as we can do. Not just with rls, genres are getting blended and experimented with in so many ways it's hard to know how to categorize them all other than to just name the genres blended.

Roguelite is usually just used to refer to roguelikish games that are easy or have persistent leveling, unlocks etc and doesn't make sense applied to something like Spelunky. There's roguelikelike, but that's a mouthful and way too broad to mean anything.

Of course the problem looms when people then start to reduce "roguelike" to "random" but at least its a place to work from.

But briefly, first off even not using the warehouse Shiren isn't particularly hard especially for a roguelike game. So you're wrong there, but there's still a good challenge compared to most games and it's level of difficulty is good for hooking new players to the genre.

It also has features to appeal to new players like the warehouse and companions that make it even easier to help ease them into the genre (most roguelikes don't do anything like that.

It's complex, but not to the degree of tye likes of Nethack, Angband, ToME, Crawl etc which again makes it a good starting point. It's quite conceivable to pick up Shiren and beat it without any guides or spoilers, that's much harder with most rls. Even Rogue is a handful.

Also let's face it, a lot of players who aren't already hooked on the crack that is a good rl game look at ascii graphics and balk. Shiren looks awesome and has a great soundtrack to boot.

The only way you could say Shiren isn't a great first roguelike is if the player could only ever win using the warehouse and then never got into the extra modes. But even then it's still great because it means they'd probably like other mystery dungeon games of which there are loads.

Years ago I was able to find and download the full soundtrack for the Wii remake, and I planned to upload it to Youtube, but never got around to it. Thing is, my OCD won't let me upload unless I put them in the order the appear in-game (minus the fanfares, which are better at the end), the problem is that not only I've never finished it, the available gameplay is not enough for me to organize them.

My question is: can anyone help me finish organizing them? The ones already numbered are _probably_ correct, but I really have no idea after that...https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxX84IDqKzWFdTc5SUFnUzdWak0

>>5204604What are you even talking about, there are tons of similar games. The Mystery Dungeons are a particular type of roguelite though that have strong elements of jrpgs, but they're hardly the only ones. Elona is a pretty popular jrpg/roguelike

>>5215025I like it a lot, I think it's one of the most underrated games on a system full of gems. It was actually my introduction to roguelikes, I remember thinking at the time "oh wow, it's like turn-based Diablo", only later would I learn it's the other way around, well, kinda . I wish more games of the genre went for a stronger balance of style and substance, but I might have never played NetHack and ADOM if it wasn't for Shiren...

>>5217051Yeah most roguelikes were/are fan made and not meant for retail so it's rarer that a lot of work goes into presentation. Though I'm not one of them, there are some fans who think traditional ascii graphics are what suits rls the best. I like a nice tile set, but I get what they mean it's like reading a book and seeing the game world more in your imagination. And some like Brogue do pretty beautiful things with it.

>>5219048Hell, even NetHack, I tried getting into it for months before I discovered the mobile port, Nevanda tileset and touch screen controls are the way to go. I just wish they were more accessible in at least one fo the ways, at least some more modern graphics _or_ at least more modern controls...