For anyone following my fridge experiment: I made another 8.5% starter dough and now have a hunch that something else is going on.

I'm pretty sure Craig said it somewhere a little while back, but I believe putting a dough in the fridge has a larger negative effect on the yeast than I previously thought. As usual I didn't change anything in my dough, but this time did a 5 day cold ferment and 24 hour warm ferment @ 65*F. The dough had many small bubbles but didn't really increase in volume. Additionally my spring & top color were both very poor.

I did use a different baking surface (steel instead of firebrick), however this should in theory produce a better spring, not worse. I had enough heat in the steel... pic below was about a 6 minute bake @ 525, obviously slightly overdone. I used a broiler for 2ish minutes and my cheese/toppings were cooked very nicely. The top crust was so pale and unappetizing and the only variable was the cold ferment time.

I'm going to open a new thread on this subject since I don't want to overload this one anymore than it already is. My next experiment is going to be adding a certain % of additional starter if my intent is to cold ferment to make up for the poor performance due to cold fermenting.

If I were to make dough that I wanted to use 24 hours later and were allowing the dough to ferment at 75 degrees, I would want to use 1% starter?

Yes

Quote

If that is correct, I'm unclear as to how long I should do the bulk ferment and at what point I should ball the dough.

That's up to you, but I would give two points of guidance based on my experience - 1) you don't want much signs of visibly activity (bubbles) when you ball, and 2) you want at least 4 and probably 5+ hours in balls. I usually do 12-24 hours in balls.

Quote

And also, say I was still fermenting at 75% but wanted to use the dough 12 hours later, I would use 9.6%?

You mean 75F, not 75%, right? If so, yes, about 10% for 12 hours at 75F.

Quote

Could I expect the two different doughs to perform the same then?

Yes, they should perform about the same; the crumb structure might be a little different. They probably won't taste the same.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I may be of help here. You need to solve for other parameters as well, such as ionic strength, water activity as expressed as ionic strength, redox potential and substrate access. I'd first get started on adding a new process-parameter: salt and then expressing its content as ionic-strength. I can provide that data if you cannot find it. This would then modify the information you have already gathered from before: inoculation percentage (and hence starting-dough pH) and temperature, both of which give you a specified generation-time. That generation-time means nothing without the other, directly-correlative outliers sourdough microflora commonly encounter during the course of fermentation.

You'll find that water-activity has little impact on time, barely shaving generation-time by a factor of .0154% at a water-activity of .94 and by a mere .1224% at a water-activity of .99.

All this being said, this model is only predictive for cultures where Lb SF is the dominant microorganism during all fermentative conditions, which is a big assumption. Complicating matters even more, time does not matter in order to understand fermentation. It's merely an outcome.

This thread is awesome. I can't wait to have my starters going to be able to use the chart as a guideline. One question (potentially stupid), does this chart/data specifically apply to pizza dough or just dough in general? In other words, can it be applied to breads as well? Craig, thanks for taking to time to work on this and make it available to people like me that can use all the help we can get!

This thread is awesome. I can't wait to have my starters going to be able to use the chart as a guideline. One question (potentially stupid), does this chart/data specifically apply to pizza dough or just dough in general? In other words, can it be applied to breads as well? Craig, thanks for taking to time to work on this and make it available to people like me that can use all the help we can get!

It should work as a starting point for most things. Sweet doughs may vary more than others.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Thank you for your shared knowledge. I am a pizza NooB but have had enough semi successful efforts and many many more disappointments enough to realize that I've been recklessly throwing things together hoping they'll work. Now I can see more clearly what I've been doing wrong thanks to the information here. One small question. I assume you live in Texas, and wonder where you have 65°F temps for fermentation? Do you have a cellar or some temperature controller switch on a refrigerator you use?

Also wondering if you can point to a primer on sourdough culture maintenance and management. I find it difficult.

Thank you for your shared knowledge. I am a pizza NooB but have had enough semi successful efforts and many many more disappointments enough to realize that I've been recklessly throwing things together hoping they'll work. Now I can see more clearly what I've been doing wrong thanks to the information here. One small question. I assume you live in Texas, and wonder where you have 65°F temps for fermentation? Do you have a cellar or some temperature controller switch on a refrigerator you use?

Also wondering if you can point to a primer on sourdough culture maintenance and management. I find it difficult.

A question with regard to 24 hrs.. If I had a choice to do 8 hrs bulk and 16 hrs balled or vice versa, would I want to do the shorter balled version?

iRobertO

It's personal preference. AOTBE, the longer in balls, the easier it is going to be to open. I like 24 hours. most folks would benefit from more than 24 hours in balls. Some people like less because they want a bit more elastic dough.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Craig, thanks for posting this. Your generosity in sharing information continually blows me away. Per the Multiple Stage Starter Prediction Model, if you were to bulk ferment at 65F for 24 hours, then ball and ferment for another 24 hours at 65F, then proof for 3 hours at 75F, the model calls for 0.6% starter. Don't you usually recommend 1.3% for this fermentation schedule? Am I overlooking something here?

Damian

I have been using your method of approx. 1.3% starter, 60% hydration, 24h bulk ~65-66F, 24h ball 65-66F, then a couple hours around 80F and been very happy with the results.I am probably using the Multiple Stage model incorrectly, but if plug in 48h @ 65F and 3 h @ 80F, it tells me I should only be using 0.5% starter.Alternatively, if plug in only 48h @ 65F, it has 1.1% starter so closer to the 1.3%.Should the last couple hours bringing the dough up to temp be ignored from the equation?

Maybe - maybe not. There are too many variables to give you a definite answer. The purpose of the model is to come up with a close starting point. In many cases, a little bit of tweaking will be required.

I've found that my 1.3% culture dough is typically ready in 48h at 64-65F, and it also has a very long (8+ hour) window of usability even with the temperature coming up to 80 or so - though I like to keep it down in the mid-low 70's if possible.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Gotcha, thanks. Concur on the usability window - last weekend had a few hour delay in expected bake starting time and the dough was outstanding even though sat in the 80's for a few extra hours. Read this week about the pinhole trick in the lids, definitely doing that next as the lids keep popping off even in 65F bulk.

And is it correct to say that while using more starter for a shorter ferment (i.e. 12-24 hour dough) may result in a 'usable' dough, your experience has been the shorter ferment even with higher starter percentage does not develop the same flavor profile that a 48h dough will? (that was my experience when attempted an emergency starter dough)

And is it correct to say that while using more starter for a shorter ferment (i.e. 12-24 hour dough) may result in a 'usable' dough, your experience has been the shorter ferment even with higher starter percentage does not develop the same flavor profile that a 48h dough will? (that was my experience when attempted an emergency starter dough)

I think this is true, AOTBE. And not just the flavor but the texture and appearance will be affected as well.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Craig Ive recently started my own starter with strong white bread flour which Ive been feeding with good results for a fortnight, I now want to switch to feeding it with Caputo is this viable and what are the pros and cons?

Craig Ive recently started my own starter with strong white bread flour which Ive been feeding with good results for a fortnight, I now want to switch to feeding it with Caputo is this viable and what are the pros and cons?

Personally, I don't see any need to feed it Caputo. It's certainly not a bad choice. I don't because it's not particularly easy for me to get Caputo. My intuition is that you won't see any difference in your final dough unless perhaps you are using a high % of culture in the formula, and maybe not even then. I've always fed mine KAAP or KABF.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage