Actually, what I didn't get into was the prophecies specifically related to Jesus. There are several located throughout Scripture, and I don't have them with me to point you in that direction.

But these same writings were written hundreds of years BEFORE his existence, but they nailed down the time, the place, the blood lines, the lineage from both families, and his death. The only thing that has not been proven is His return, and no man knows the day or the hour. The only thing that we do know is that it will come like a thief in the night. Or "as in the days of Noah, when people were eating and drinking, wedding and being wed".

What I was trying to say is that your evidence is based from people that wish to discredit the Bible. Because IF the Bible were proven true, then that means we're responsible for living or doing as it says, but IF we can prove it to be false, or just another history book, then we are not responsible for all that it says, and are free to live as we wish. So it's a "bias" both ways.

I'm not trying to measure manhood here, I realize that in terms of science I wouldn't measure up and so I'm not trying. What I was hoping to do was point in the direction of a group of scientists that actually use the Bible to locate their study subjects. According to what was shared, there is a 100% accuracy rate in using the Bible to locate and identify ancient cultures and locations. Even Sodom and Gomorrah have potentially been located, as I think National Geographic did a piece on it. And they found the evidence of the destruction too!

Again, it's not about introducing you to a religion, and never has been, but you've said you'll believe in God when you see him, and I've been trying to help you see Him.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

March 1st, 2014, 12:33 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

What I was trying to say is that your evidence is based from people that wish to discredit the Bible. Because IF the Bible were proven true, then that means we're responsible for living or doing as it says, but IF we can prove it to be false, or just another history book, then we are not responsible for all that it says, and are free to live as we wish. So it's a "bias" both ways.

I'm not sure how you can say their is "bias" both ways. Science looks for truth, they aren't out to discredit anything in general (some may have individual agendas for all I know but to say they are out to discredit the Bible is wrong). I never set out to discredit the Bible when I really started studying it, the facts simply led that way. You assume Science is out to get the Bible, a false assumption.

The rest of what you say above is concerning. First, how many false facts do you need to see within the Bible before it is proven to your satisfaction to be false? My guess is no matter what the number, if I point out that many to you it still wouldn't change your mind, nor is that my goal. Second, once proven false, we are not "free to live as we wish". The Bible isn't the one and only moral authority for man, I really hope you know better than that.

Again, of course the Bible is going to contain a lot of information that is also true. It was written by man based upon his knowledge at the time, some (in fact much) was obviously correct and holds true to this day. The parts that are wrong are fairly easy to distinguish because from other "knowledge" of that time from other texts and parts of the world, they thought pretty much the same way.

You state that no one can know when he is returning, convenient since it was clear in the Bible that he would return in the lifetime of the people of the new testament. Since that didn't happen, the Church has invented all sorts of theological interpretations to try to explain that away.

For example:

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)

There are plenty more examples of this if you need them, but to say we "can't know" is wrong because the Bible tells us pretty clearly. The issue isn't when, it is that it never happened when the Bible said it would.

The writers of the New Testament clearly thought the final days/hours were upon them, I'd be happy to provide tons of examples of this as well. But if you read John, or Corinthians, or Peter, or Hebrews, or Thessalonians, or James, or Revelations you can find them for yourself if you are open to it.

One idea I find is interesting is this notion of the bible providing some sort of moral code. It's largely taken for granted by believers, and even some non-believers, though when you actually think about it, it doesn't hold up to any sort of logical scrutiny.

The Bible does not provide any sort of moral code. None whatsoever.

Men create the code, then look to the bible for passages/interpretations to justify the beliefs they already hold. Although the bible has been largely unchanged for the last 1700 years, the moral code of Christians has changed quite drastically, and continues to change today.

Just think about our society in the 1800s: slavery, pedophilia -- common practices justified by a selective interpretation of the Bible. Today we find them reprehensible. The Bible didn't change, but the moral code of Christians clearly did.

The Bible is quite clear about homosexuals, and about homosexual marriage. Somehow, I have a feeling that 50 years from now, Christians will come to accept it, and look past the Bible's condemnation of it.

March 3rd, 2014, 11:13 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

All of what you've spoken about has more to do with humanity and less to do with the Bible. It speaks to the fallen nature of humanity which is addressed in Genesis 3, the "knowledge of Good and Evil."

From that time to present, humanity has consistently gotten worse, and more disgusting in our practices. Wags and I discussed some similarities between Ancient Rome and modern day US, some time back, but even then we failed to agree. It's a mere difference of perspective and really shouldn't be an arguing point, just difference in opinion.

Having said that, there is a marked difference that is beginning to take shape even in Christianity. You have those who are stepping away from the "religion" and are more concerned with the relationship, which is what I've been saying for a while. The religion is binding, regulatory, and powerless to save anyone, but the relationship with God through Jesus Christ is freedom, real, and powerful for those who are willing to pursue it. It is not something that can be put into words as it is personal, and experiential by the person themselves. As I've tried to say many times, I don't want to burden you or anyone with rules, and regulations, I want to introduce you to a man who changed my life. This is what I used to be, and this is who I am now.

If you take interest, the new movie "Son of God" did a very good job of showing the difference between Religion and Relationship. Jesus spent time with the people, and where they were at. He ministered, healed, fed, provided, and did many things AMONGST the people. Where do you find RELIGION? In a church, temple or other specific structure. Jesus told us to "GO and make disciples" and up until the 3rd century, there was no such thing as a church. The temple was a Jewish tradition, and the leaders were hypocritical, legalists, and abusive. (sound familiar?) But Jesus was approachable, and real, and tangible. He offered hope, and relationship, and proved it by the things he did. It is those things that he asked those who would follow him to do. Sadly, Christianity grew accustomed to a broken model, and so you have what you see now, and people are sick of it.

In the movie, the religious leadership were worried about their traditions, their way of life, and their control of the people. Jesus was just worried about the people. I am curious as to what it is about Jesus that non-Christians, and "unbelievers" find so threatening? What did he do that was so awful? What was it about him that made people hate him? Where did he ever offend anyone but the religious establishment, that was abusing their privilege, and position?

Can anyone answer me that? Please!

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

March 3rd, 2014, 11:51 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

I am curious as to what it is about Jesus that non-Christians, and "unbelievers" find so threatening? What did he do that was so awful? What was it about him that made people hate him? Where did he ever offend anyone but the religious establishment, that was abusing their privilege, and position?

Can anyone answer me that? Please!

I find nothing threatening about Jesus whatsoever, it is his followers. Personally, from what I read about the man he was a very good and caring person. He accepted all, unfortunately many followers use him to do the exact opposite - take a look at Arizona recently. That is the issue.

If people really lived their life asking and following WWJD, the world would be a much, much better place. Instead, many hide behind what they interpret the Bible to say and do terrible things calling themselves Christians and followers of Jesus. And when you believe in something bigger than yourself, no matter what, and justify terrible acts (think 911) - that is what people are afraid of. Whenever someone say God/Jesus told them to do something - well, that is delusional and downright scary at times, funny at others. Just last week Bryan and Lanette Davies said God told them to open a Pot shop, who knew?

I hope that answers your question. I'm as threatened by Jesus as you are by all the earlier incarnations of the same story - Horus, Zoroaster, Glycon, Attis of Phrygia, Heracles, Dionysus, etc. They don't scare you, however, if followers of say Romulus told them that old white men who cheer for the Lions were evil and destined for hell anyways (plus had quite the history of systematically whipping out those with different beliefs), you might feel a bit threatened even if Romulus himself was a gentle soul.

EDIT - BTW, it isn't all his followers, just like the 911 case it tends to be the radical few who are threatening for the most part. Although in some cases, the groupthink around topics like gays is very disturbing.

Any response to my post above? Do you not see in the Bible when it says Jesus was supposed to return? How can you then honestly say we can't know when it clearly does say when (approximately 1,935 years ago assuming he died somewhere between 26-26 AD and his followers would have made it about 50 more years if they lived a full life)? how many false facts do you need to see within the Bible before it is proven to your satisfaction to be false?

I don't understand your question, and I read it twice to see if I was misreading something....

You're point to Christians is spot on, and that goes back to the fallen nature of mankind. We're ALL fallen short, and NONE of us can obtain paradise by our own works. That's the entirety of the point. Catholicism teaches that by attending mass (religiously) you can earn or buy your way into heaven because of your good attendance and works. FALSE! If man could earn or work his way into heaven then Jesus would never have needed to come. This pertains to all other religions. The Muslim faith dictates that you must do x to please their "god" figure. All other religions say "DO!" to obtain " X ", Jesus says decide!

Do you wish to know him? Are you willing to take a step, even a small one and muster all the faith that you can and say "Jesus I do believe, but help me in my unbelief." Are you willing to take that chance, inspite of all the physical stuff? That's the sticking point. Because humanity can not see the Spiritual, nor more than we can see the wind. It comes, and goes where it wants but no man can control it. We see the works of the wind left behind, but we can not tell you what it looks like, or anything, it just is. So it is with the Spiritual.

It's a huge jump to be willing to take that "leap of faith" into the arms of someone you can not see physically, and to trust that He's there. Trust me I get it! I wrestle with it myself, and the more I grow in my faith, the more I wrestle and struggle, but I have experienced too much that I can not put into words, that proves to me the 1. He does exist, and 2. He does love me.

Trust me when I tell you that I wish I had the definitive evidence that you require, because it would make the introduction SO MUCH easier, but all I can offer you is my life, and what you've seen in it.

Personally, I do not hold to the church, I choose to follow Jesus and do my best to do exactly what I've seen him do, or what he calls me to do now. I serve, I love, I reach out, and I suffer all because this is what I see him do, and what he's called me to do. But I am outnumbered!

Many of my brothers and sisters in Christ, do not see it as I do, nor do they walk it. They're too busy fighting for their "religious rights" while I understand that I don't have any rights! My rights were forefeited the moment I accepted Christ, because he paid a price for my salvation. This is why I say, I'm a "Blood Bought Born Again Christian." My committment isn't to a religion, or a church, or a way of life; my committment is to Jesus Christ, and in my life here in Indiana, on these boards, and facebook, and in life in general, I'm trying to be the best example possible. I choose to love, serve, and minister as I'm able because that's how people such as yourself will see Jesus. They will see Him live through me.

I'm a tool: I can do nothing of my own accord, but when I submit and place myself in the hands of the master, he can do anything through me he wishes, and that's my desire. To be the best example I can be all the time. But keep in mind, I am human too, and so I still sin and struggle, and argue, and fight with the Lord. I don't agree with how He chooses to do things sometimes, and I do wrestle with Him over it, but then when I get through, and He allows my perspective to change, then I can submit, repent, and get back to being useful.

You've mentioned these other "examples" of Christs, from other religions before, and the only way that I have to explain that is that we have an enemy who is a counterfeit. He's been trying to discredit and sow deceit since his arrival here. So, many of these false Christs do have similar stories and lives, and legends, because they are meant to muddy the water, and provide the ammunition for the very perspective you've brought up. But can I ask you this? Instead of picking portions apart, and highlighting this fallacy or that, have you actually read the whole? Do you understand the entirety of it, or have you just chosen to question those parts that you have read? I'm not judging, just asking.

Many of the arguments I've seen here have all been Old Testament examples, and the Old Testament did not apply to Christians. Old Testament was the story of humanity, and how we've fallen, and then the story of the Jews and their history. But with the Birth of Christ, and the gospels and books of the New Testament, you have a people that have been adopted in, because the Jews rejected their own. This is where you and I come in. We've been "grafted in" to the vine, and are able to have the relationship with God THROUGH Jesus, because of what was done. But you also need to keep in mind that what has been written, was written by Jewish men, and what's been translated has been done through the Greek. Two different ways of looking at things, one tangible or concrete, the other analytical. The analytical is how modern Christianity has learned, and we've lost some perspectives because the relational has not translated over.

In my area, there are many "liberal Christians" and mainstream denominations that are surrendering to the "fair" thinking, and have changed their foundations and dogma, in order to welcome all into the fold. However, God has a standard of righteousness that must be met, and He doesn't compromise. We can water it down all we like to make it "fair" for everyone, but in the end, the standard will be unchanged. Jesus' sacrifice, is what allows us (humanity) to be able to obtain that standard of righteousness, because our sin debt has been paid for, all we need to do is accept what's being offered. So I don't believe it will take 50 years for mainstream Christianity to openly accept things that are not acceptable to God, because our human thinking is not like His thinking. We can justify sin in any way we wish, but it won't take away the fact that it's still sin, we'll just feel better about doing it.

The more I choose to follow after Jesus, the more I'm finding that I'm walking agains TRADITIONAL church culture, and that is where the real persecution is. Again, think back to the movie I mentioned; when the religious see their comfort and way of life threatened, they will persecute and destroy anything that jeopardizes their beliefs, and THEY WILL BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING GOD'S WILL BY DOING IT. Think of the Apostle Paul, who was killing and imprisoning Christians because he thought he was doing God's will according to how he was taught. It will be the same with the Traditional Religious, and they'll attack and seek to destroy those who are choosing to walk, and act as Jesus did.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

March 3rd, 2014, 1:10 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Do you wish to know him? Are you willing to take a step, even a small one and muster all the faith that you can and say "Jesus I do believe, but help me in my unbelief." Are you willing to take that chance, inspite of all the physical stuff? That's the sticking point. Because humanity can not see the Spiritual, nor more than we can see the wind. It comes, and goes where it wants but no man can control it. We see the works of the wind left behind, but we can not tell you what it looks like, or anything, it just is. So it is with the Spiritual.

I cannot take this leap of faith anymore that you can all of a sudden dispend and proof needed and really believe in the Tooth Fairy or unicorns. I'm sorry, I don't mean to insult here but the leap is so preposterous to me it simply isn't possible. I don't know how to explain it other than that but without proof, and logic/reason all pointing to it being a made up story like all the others before him - it isn't happening my friend. Also, remember I already believed for the first 20+ years of my life - been there, done that.

As for "your life", I see someone who so badly wants to (and does) believe that proof, logic and reasoning don't matter. Your mind accepts what meshes with your belief (without much need for any proof) and ignores anything that contradicts your belief system. It is an emotional attachment you will probably never let go nor should you because in your life it works for you. What I don't think you understand is I simply don't need it, really never have even when I thought I did. I don't need to look externally for strength, never have even though I once did. I don't need to look externally for promise of a wonderful everlasting afterlife, I haven't since I realized what I was raised to believe simply wasn't true. I don't need to look externally to define morals or what is good.

Quite simply, everything you find in your external beliefs, I find internally and more based on my own life of once believing and the last 20 years not believing. While you offer your life, I'll offer you mine. I've believed and I've not believed. I now choose the later, it is way more fulfilling to me. More empowering.

You look at everyone born as a sinner. That is such a negative starting point and sad/cynical way to view the world. It is brought on by an external viewpoint, I prefer to see the good in people. Above you said I'm a tool: I can do nothing of my own accord, that is self deprecating and defeatist. We have very different views on life, why in the world would I want to think that way. I don't. Why would I want to follow the example of someone who thinks that way? I wouldn't. I would certainly NEVER raise my children to think that way either.

You think people choose to be gay. I see people born that way, and if they are happy (not sure if you read the article from the Dalai Lama I posted or not) more power to them. You would like to impose your own values on them, again, I just want them to live a happy life. Verydifferent ways of looking at the same picture.

You want to "introduce" people to Jesus to fix them. It isn't the people who are broken, but your externally adopted viewpoint of them that is IMO. The "love" you profess God/Jesus has, at least in Christian terms, is almost always expressed conditionally. Let us explore. Ready?

Now I have two simple questions for you, please answer honestly...

If your daughter comes to you and tells you she is gay - what do you do? What if she told you she wanted to convert to Islam?

If either of my sons come to me and tells me they are gay, or wanted to convert to Islam, etc. - I just want them to be happy. Truth is, I never want to answer like I you would (if you are being honest). Why would I? I don't view them from a sinner starting point. I see them with all the potential in the world to be great, and more importantly be happy.

So, back to your original question - Do you wish to know him? The answer is no. Not because I view him as bad or a threat. But because I'm better off without him. And quite frankly, my views towards others are better off without him - at least from what I can tell by what I'm hearing his followers say about themselves and others. I still can ask myself, WWJD or WW Buddha/Dalai Lama do? They are often worthwhile questions to contemplate or meditate on.

I don't expect you to fully understand this, but I hope you will respect it. I've walked in those shoes, they brought on feeling of love and other great things, but also of guilt, fear, anxiety, and of judging others (if not condemning) that didn't "think" the same way. Now I can still have all the love and be much more accepting of both myself and others for the way we are.

Here's one more question for you - why are you threatened by those who don't share your belief? I look forward to your answers to these 3 simple questions my friend. I hope you are having a "blessed" day!

Pablo, You've given me much to chew on, and I'll do my best to answer honestly.

1st: If my daughter were to approach me and tell me that she were gay; 1. I would grieve, 2. I would seek the Lord in prayer, and 3. I would love her, and welcome her partner, and hope the Lord would show me a way to illustrate the incorrect pattern of her life.

There is an error in your thinking concerning being "born that way." If it were a natural way, as you are assuming, then why must Adam and Steve depend upon adoption, or a birth mother to provide them with a child? It isn't natural, it is biologically impossible for two men, or two women to naturally produce children. It is a condition of the heart, bearing fruit in the mental and physical attractions. This goes beyond thoughts and feelings and actually deals with a much deeper level of the "3 part man" which I haven't discussed much.

I don't look at humanity as cynical and negative as you assume. I see the "sin condition", especially in myself, and that allows me to empathize and understand when things happen. Case in point, what is one of the first words any child says? "MINE", this speaks to the inherent SELFISH nature of all humanity. Having understood my own sinful nature, natural bents towards sin, and struggles, this allows me to react in grace and mercy. But rest assured I don't do it right all the time! It is a journey, a self discovery, and a struggle at times, but it's one I choose to do because through my pursuance of living righteous according to how Jesus did, the love and service I'm sharing, has an impact. Instead of returning hate for hate, I try to respond in love. Instead of getting even, I choose to suffer the offense, and love them anyway. Instead of insisting upon my own way, I try to listen and encourage and then lead by example.

2. What if my daughter were to convert to the Muslim faith? 1. I would grieve, 2. I would seek the Lord in prayer, and 3. I would love her, and hope the Lord would show me a way to illustrate the incorrect pattern of her life. At some point my daughter will be held accountable for her own decisions, and I hope that the years that she's been under my care and protection, and the way that I've shared my faith with her, will encourage her in her own walk. Will she make mistakes, absolutely, will I still love her, without question. But if she were adamant, at some point I have to surrender her to God, and love her while I can, and hope that He will make the adjustments in her life.

I don't wish to fix people as you suggest! That's insinuates pride, and by no means am I trying to suggest pride. I do know what I know, and the evidence that I have, I can not explain. Believe me I've tried! It's like I've said a hundred times before, I can tell you about how warm the water is, and you can see me having a good time swimming, but until you jump in, you'll not be able to experience it for yourself.

You have shared that you were a believer for the first 20 years, and I'd like to ask you which faith? Were you a believer in RELIGION? This is where I've been trying to show the difference. Religion is rules, regulations, ceremony, and traditions that are beautiful but cold and sterile. Relationship is warm, interactive, and personal, and can still be viable and practiced within the religion, but it is fully separate from it. If I remember correctly you were Catholic, as many are here, but the difficulty with Catholicism is that they teach relationship to the CHURCH, and the Pope, but not with God through Jesus Christ. The Priest can not absolve you of any sin, because HE didn't pay the price. There are many traditions here that I could dispel, but I don't wish to offend anyone.

So I hope I've answered your questions and if not, please let me know, so I can try again. I assure you that my answers are honest too!

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

March 3rd, 2014, 6:00 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

You did answer and honestly, thank you. The answers illustrate to me why I have no interest in following the same path as you, my answers may illustrate the same to you.

You say you don't want to fix people, I think you need to reread your own answers. That is exactly what you are hoping to do.

Answer 1 - hope the Lord would show me a way to illustrate the incorrect pattern of her life

Answer 2 - hope the Lord would show me a way to illustrate the incorrect pattern of her life

The exact same answer to both. If she doesn't align to your belief systems way of thinking, something must be wrong with her and you must illustrate that to her - why - to fix it of course.

No acceptance, no primary desire that it makes here happy. I NEVER want to think like this, and if this is what you get from your relationship with Christ I want to part of it - you can have those "warm" waters all to yourself.

I went to multiple Churches of various faiths as a child, my father was Catholic and I spent more of my formative years in that particular branch of Christianity. Your reaction, point out the error there and illustrate the incorrect pattern as a result.

Your "logic" of what is natural or not is flawed. What if a woman is born without ovaries? It is biologically impossible for her to have children - how unnatrual. If two men or women want to have children, will love them and that makes them happy - who cares? I guess Jesus does in your estimation - why would I want to follow him if that was the case? In one breath, you talk about welcoming her partner then showing her how she is "incorrect" - not a very warm welcome is it, perhaps your water isn't nearly as warm as your would like to believe. That my friend, is like skinny dipping in Lake Superior. I would not only welcome my childs parter, because they make him happy - I would love them as well.

As an agnostic, I believe if there is a God he would love me unconditionally. That's how I love my children, that's how I accept my children (faults and all), and that is why I want nothing more than for them to be happy.

I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you actually answered my questions, it has made me even more thankful for the path away from Christianity I have taken in my adult life. In my own personal case, I "believe" it has made me a much better person than I would have been otherwise. I don't want to say this is the case for others, or even most people, each has his or her own path to follow. A large majority of the most wonderful people I've had the pleasure to meet on this beautiful planet have a significant belief system much different than my own.

What's interesting is that you assume that I do not know the truth, and therefore any efforts I make to correct my daugthers errored thinking is wrong.

The truth is Jesus Christ. "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the Life, no man can come to the Father except through me."

Because of this, and because of the knowledge I have by spending time with Him, I have and continue to learn the truth. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination, and it often puts me at odds with friends and family, but I have determined to see it through, and love along the way. That's all I can do!

I must say that you've muddied the waters a little bit by trying to throw in a genetic deformity as: 1. a common occurrence, 2. on the same level as sinful tendencies. They are not the same, and I'm not even sure what the statistics would be for such a "birth defect". Regardless, they do not measure up on the same level. One is biological, the other is a part of the human condition, not genetic, but Spiritually transferred.

I am saddened that by your own admission, I've participated in driving you away from Christianity, because that was never my intent. Again, I have consistently said, I do NOT want to introduce you to a religion, I want to introduce you to a man who's changed my life. There is a marked difference that is becoming ever more apparent as time goes on. There will not be too many days that go by that Christianity will divide itself into those who choose to follow Jesus, and do as He did, and those who choose to follow Christianity because that's what they understand, have grown comfortable with, and know. To follow Jesus is to walk by faith and not by sight, and it is unsettling, fearful, and terribly difficult because there is no "control" over what happens. Moment by moment, day by day, you live and make decisions based by what the Lord brings into your path, and that lack of control is a hinge point that many Christians, including myself fear. BUT, I am still wrestling with the Lord on this, and trying to be obedient and serve according to how He directs me. But I can only do it decision by decision.

From the tone of your words, the hang up that you have is against Christianity, I get it, I hear you, I understand. But what is your hang up against Jesus Christ? What is it about him, who loved sinners, walked with sinners, healed sinners, fed them, associated with them, and eventually died for them, that chases you away?

Pablo, I'm not asking you to follow me, I'm not asking you to follow a church, I'm not asking you to do anything but take a chance and follow Jesus. How the two of you work out the details of your life, is up to the TWO OF YOU, not me. I am only here to make the introduction, the decisions you make past that point are between you and Him, I have no say so in the matter whatsoever. I don't know how to be any more direct and clear than that.

I don't want to introduce you or anyone to a religion, I want to introduce you to a man who's changed my life, nothing more, nothing less. But if you don't want to know him, that is a choice you make, and a decision you'll live with. But I will say, that whether you choose to meet Jesus or not, I'll still pray for you, because the only day that will stop is till one of us is taking a dirt nap.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or strong arm them, I'm only trying to clarify that there is a HUGE difference between religion and relationship, and much of what you've said smacks of religion. Again, IF at some point you should decide and reach out to Jesus Christ, from that point forward the journey is yours and His. I don't factor in by any means, and the only reason why several of you have come onto my radar is because of what the Lord has asked me to do. So I do my best to communicate a different perspective as clearly as I can, and answer the questions as honestly as possible, other than that, we've only got Lions football in common. Be blessed!

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

March 4th, 2014, 12:20 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Not sure when I said you didn't know the truth, I'm not sure anybody knows. History typically proves those who claim to know it end up being wrong. According to you, it would be any "religious" figure pre-Christ - they were all wrong now weren't they. Guess what, the pattern continues...

Also don't be saddened thinking you have driven me from Christianity, you didn't. That was a decision made a long time ago when I "woke" up to the obvious. You've simply reinforced for me I absolutely made the right choice, not that I needed any reinforcement.

As for the gay thing, I'm not going to change you mind. If you want to use a 2,000+ year old book to define it as a sin for you and judge others, that is your choice.

You are so hung up on praying for me, because you think something is wrong and you feel it must be fixed (a common pattern in your life as you continue to judge others). Pray for yourself in the hopes that you can one day be fully accepting of others and love them unconditionally. If you ever can achieve this, then I'm interested in taking this conversation further. But not until then. I'm not interested in going backwards, only forward!

I came across an author that comes from your analytical, science and evidence background that may speak according to how you understand and choose to believe. Below is his Bio, and know that he used to be an investigative report for the Chicago Tribue and is reported to be a facts, figures, and evidence guy. From what I understand of his story, his wife became a Christian, and he wanted to know, "What's wrong with my wife?" So he began investigating, and researching and made a discovery that changed his life. The choice is yours, I'm only pointing you in the direction, should you decide that you really want to know. Have a great day, and I hope you'll enjoy it.

Meet Lee Strobel

Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel, the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times best-selling author of more than twenty books and serves as Professor of Christian Thought at Houston Baptist University.

Described in the Washington Post as "one of the evangelical community's most popular apologists," Lee shared the Christian Book of the Year award in 2005 for a curriculum he co-authored with Garry Poole about the movie The Passion of the Christ. He also won Gold Medallions for The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, and The Case for a Creator, all of which have been made into documentaries distributed by Lionsgate.

His latest works include his first novel, The Ambition, and The Case for Christ Study Bible, which features hundreds of notes and articles. His free e-newsletter, Investigating Faith, is available at www.LeeStrobel.com.

Lee was educated at the University of Missouri (Bachelor of Journalism degree) and Yale Law School (Master of Studies in Law degree). He was a journalist for 14 years at The Chicago Tribune and other newspapers, winning Illinois' highest honor for public service journalism from United Press International. He also led a team that won UPI’s top award for investigative reporting in Illinois.

After investigating the evidence for Jesus, Lee became a Christian in 1981. He joined the staff of Willow Creek Community Church in 1987 and later became a teaching pastor. He joined Saddleback Valley Community Church as a teaching pastor in 2000. He left Saddleback to write books and host the national network TV program Faith Under Fire.

In addition, Lee taught First Amendment Law at Roosevelt University. In recognition of the extensive research for his books, he was honored by Southern Evangelical Seminary with the conferring of a Doctor of Divinity degree in 2007.

Lee's other books include The Case for the Real Jesus, Finding the Real Jesus, God's Outrageous Claims, The Case for Christmas, The Case for Easter, The Unexpected Adventure (co-authored with Mark Mittelberg), and Surviving a Spiritual Mismatch in Marriage, which he wrote with his wife, Leslie.

Lee also co-authored the Becoming a Contagious Christian course, which has trained more than a million Christians on how to naturally and effectively talk with others about Jesus.

He has been interviewed on such national TV networks as ABC, Fox, PBS and CNN, and his articles have appeared in a variety of periodicals, including the online editions of the Wall Street Journal and Newsweek. He has been a recurring guest on The Bible Answer Man and Focus on the Family radio programs. He is a member of the Evangelical Philosophical Society.

Lee and Leslie have been married for 40 years and live in Colorado. Their daughter, Alison, is the author of six novels and co-author of two books for children. Their son, Kyle, has written several books on Jonathan Edwards and on spiritual formation. With a PhD in theology from the University of Aberdeen and two master's degrees, he is a professor at Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

I came across an author that comes from your analytical, science and evidence background that may speak according to how you understand and choose to believe. Below is his Bio, and know that he used to be an investigative report for the Chicago Tribue and is reported to be a facts, figures, and evidence guy. From what I understand of his story, his wife became a Christian, and he wanted to know, "What's wrong with my wife?" So he began investigating, and researching and made a discovery that changed his life. The choice is yours, I'm only pointing you in the direction, should you decide that you really want to know. Have a great day, and I hope you'll enjoy it.

Meet Lee Strobel

Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel, the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times best-selling author of more than twenty books and serves as Professor of Christian Thought at Houston Baptist University.

Described in the Washington Post as "one of the evangelical community's most popular apologists," Lee shared the Christian Book of the Year award in 2005 for a curriculum he co-authored with Garry Poole about the movie The Passion of the Christ. He also won Gold Medallions for The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, and The Case for a Creator, all of which have been made into documentaries distributed by Lionsgate.

His latest works include his first novel, The Ambition, and The Case for Christ Study Bible, which features hundreds of notes and articles. His free e-newsletter, Investigating Faith, is available at http://www.LeeStrobel.com.

Lee was educated at the University of Missouri (Bachelor of Journalism degree) and Yale Law School (Master of Studies in Law degree). He was a journalist for 14 years at The Chicago Tribune and other newspapers, winning Illinois' highest honor for public service journalism from United Press International. He also led a team that won UPI’s top award for investigative reporting in Illinois.

After investigating the evidence for Jesus, Lee became a Christian in 1981. He joined the staff of Willow Creek Community Church in 1987 and later became a teaching pastor. He joined Saddleback Valley Community Church as a teaching pastor in 2000. He left Saddleback to write books and host the national network TV program Faith Under Fire.

In addition, Lee taught First Amendment Law at Roosevelt University. In recognition of the extensive research for his books, he was honored by Southern Evangelical Seminary with the conferring of a Doctor of Divinity degree in 2007.

Lee's other books include The Case for the Real Jesus, Finding the Real Jesus, God's Outrageous Claims, The Case for Christmas, The Case for Easter, The Unexpected Adventure (co-authored with Mark Mittelberg), and Surviving a Spiritual Mismatch in Marriage, which he wrote with his wife, Leslie.

Lee also co-authored the Becoming a Contagious Christian course, which has trained more than a million Christians on how to naturally and effectively talk with others about Jesus.

He has been interviewed on such national TV networks as ABC, Fox, PBS and CNN, and his articles have appeared in a variety of periodicals, including the online editions of the Wall Street Journal and Newsweek. He has been a recurring guest on The Bible Answer Man and Focus on the Family radio programs. He is a member of the Evangelical Philosophical Society.

Lee and Leslie have been married for 40 years and live in Colorado. Their daughter, Alison, is the author of six novels and co-author of two books for children. Their son, Kyle, has written several books on Jonathan Edwards and on spiritual formation. With a PhD in theology from the University of Aberdeen and two master's degrees, he is a professor at Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.

I've never heard of him and haven't read his books, but I just googled his name and one of the first an article citing numerous areas where Mr. Strobel is either lying or is unaware that he is saying factually incorrect things and citing studies that have been debunked. The article is here:

I haven't followed up on it at the moment, so I can't speak to any of its authenticity or accuracy. My reason for posting this is to point out that there never seems to be any critical analysis or "proof" of Christianity that doesn't require belief. Science and religion will never agree because science doesn't require belief, but religion does. I've mentioned this several times before, so I won't go into detail. It's an interesting study to try to evaluate things, but in the end (as I said before) it's like speaking two different languages. Or, as one reviewer on Amazon put it:

"Trying to make the case for faith based on historical and scientific evidence is flawed in and of itself. That's why they call it FAITH. Believing in the divinity of Christ is a leap of faith that one has to take to become a Christian - if it could be proven by scientific and historical evidence, then it wouldn't be faith at all. That's the whole point of it."

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

March 21st, 2014, 11:42 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

TDJ: You raise a solid point, to which I've tried to illustrate via word pictures, but probably didn't do it too well. Spirit and Physical are two separate things. Without the eyes and ears of faith, you will not be able to see, nor hear. It's not as difficult as it sounds, because it just takes 1 step, and he'll meet you the rest of the way.

Having said that, I have no doubt that there are articles debunking everything and anything he has to say. Having said that, I will say that I have not read his works either, but I've heard his story at least 3 times. My only intention was for those folks that are more analytical, and facts and figures driven, here is a man who was "one of your own" who set out to prove the existence and later became a fairly well known Christian. He's taught in several areas, and written over 20 books. For lack of a better word, I just put the food on a plate, and set it on the table, if you're hungry there it is, but if not, that's fine too. I do hope you'll give it a shot, especially since he looks at things as y'all do right now, and made a decision based upon what he found.

Have a great weekend.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

TDJ: You raise a solid point, to which I've tried to illustrate via word pictures, but probably didn't do it too well. Spirit and Physical are two separate things. Without the eyes and ears of faith, you will not be able to see, nor hear. It's not as difficult as it sounds, because it just takes 1 step, and he'll meet you the rest of the way.

Having said that, I have no doubt that there are articles debunking everything and anything he has to say. Having said that, I will say that I have not read his works either, but I've heard his story at least 3 times. My only intention was for those folks that are more analytical, and facts and figures driven, here is a man who was "one of your own" who set out to prove the existence and later became a fairly well known Christian. He's taught in several areas, and written over 20 books. For lack of a better word, I just put the food on a plate, and set it on the table, if you're hungry there it is, but if not, that's fine too. I do hope you'll give it a shot, especially since he looks at things as y'all do right now, and made a decision based upon what he found.

Have a great weekend.

Here's the thing: he doesn't "look at things as I do". He claims to have been (or to be) a facts driven person, but then he uses numerous well known debunked theories, hypothesis, etc. to try to prove his point/make his case. That's quite the opposite. Because he believes in certain things, he dismisses the criticisms or at least doesn't look into them and holds on to those things that support his belief system. Just as most people do (on both sides).

Regardless, I appreciate you trying to find more ways to communicate your message. At the end of the day, the only people who will be changed are those who are seeking something to believe in. I am not one of those people. I don't seek belief. I seek evidence, facts, things that can be tested/proven, etc.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson