After last nights pitiful performance vs the Twins what does everyone think. Is this team serious about making it into the playoffs or are they seriously flawed? Let me recap the Twins third inning yesterday. Below pitching for Tigers leading 3-1, 2 outs, 0-2 count, runner on first. Balk to advance to second, wild pitch/past ball to advance to third, error by Santiago on weak grounder to score run. Below then gives up 2 run blast. Next batter hits grounder to Cabrera who has to make a diving stop but cant make the play. Runner on first. Pitching change and Ortega gives up another two run blast. Now down 3-6 the Tigers come back to tie 6-6 but eventually lose courtesy of another error by Santiago and a dropped fly ball by Boesch. In the meantime Twins 3B makes a great play to rob Cabrera of extra bases.

Defense has killed this team all season, can they overcome this by trading for 1-2 big leaguers or should they trade what useful players they might have for some prospects - Valverde, Young, Peralta, Dotel, Laird, etc?

After last nights pitiful performance vs the Twins what does everyone think. Is this team serious about making it into the playoffs or are they seriously flawed? Let me recap the Twins third inning yesterday. Below pitching for Tigers leading 3-1, 2 outs, 0-2 count, runner on first. Balk to advance to second, wild pitch/past ball to advance to third, error by Santiago on weak grounder to score run. Below then gives up 2 run blast. Next batter hits grounder to Cabrera who has to make a diving stop but cant make the play. Runner on first. Pitching change and Ortega gives up another two run blast. Now down 3-6 the Tigers come back to tie 6-6 but eventually lose courtesy of another error by Santiago and a dropped fly ball by Boesch. In the meantime Twins 3B makes a great play to rob Cabrera of extra bases.

Defense has killed this team all season, can they overcome this by trading for 1-2 big leaguers or should they trade what useful players they might have for some prospects - Valverde, Young, Peralta, Dotel, Laird, etc?

I didn't vote. Neither should be an option.

We can not sell. Illitch went all in when we signed Fielder. It would be a waste to scrap the project now. It has taken all season, but, the hitters are finally looking as if they are getting untracked. It will cost too much to be a buyer at the trade deadline. We just need to plug along and go as far as this team takes us this year. After the season, we will know what needs changing, and we can augment through FA and off season trades when teams aren't as desperate and others aren't trying to rip you off because of your desperation as much.

Next year should be a better year if we can land a 2nd Baseman and a SS that are good/great defensively and are able to hit. Peralta is very average defensively and I think last season was fluke at the plate. Rayburn? Need I say more?

Cabrera has not been the colossal liability at 3rd base that some predicted he would be. Fielder has had maybe his worst year, so far, defensively at 1st base. I suspect that with all the plays this season at their positions, and an off season of defense training at those positions, they will be better next year.

I am at a loss to explain our Pitching.

Other than a bottle of NEW COKE being greater than Phil Coke, The same pitchers that look like poop THIS YEAR, set the world on fire LAST YEAR. Even Verlander, who everyone that knows anything agrees that he is the best SP on the planet, doesn't look as dominant this year. It actually looks, to me, that he is hiding an injury.

Fister hasn't been healthy most of the season.

I have given up on Porcello. Yes, he will occasionally have a game like his last game. But, we ruined him by bringing him up to the bigs too soon. He never developed a second out pitch. His whole game is slider, slider, slider, slider, slider, slider, oh and another slider. Eventually, hitters figure it out. You are going to throw them a slider.

Scherzer - When he is on, he is as dominant as Verlander. When he isn't on? Change the channel. Question is, which Scherzer are you going to get on any given day?

Drew Smyly - I like his potential. But, is he just a flash in the pan? Yet to be determined.

Our RP's - I like the youth of our RP's.

Villarreal - If he ever gains full control of his pitches, he has dominating Closer stuff. But, at times, that's a big IF.

Valverde - someone kidnapped Pappa Grande. I can't believe this is the same guy as last year.

Joaquin Benoit - See Pappa Grande above.

Dotel is done.

July 4th, 2012, 2:02 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

Trading Fielder is crazy, trading Cabrera....you should be embarrassed for saying that.

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

Trading Fielder is crazy, trading Cabrera....you should be embarrassed for saying that.

Really? You know both have been discussed on 97.1 as real potential fixes for the team, and you do know that both have been discussed as real possibilities by MLB sports writers? You also know that Rod Allen has discussed trading Cabby during a game when both were playing woeful, right?

The experiment isn't working, flat out. Anyone watching this team can tell that Cabrerra looks like a Keystone cop over there at third base, and Prince has flat out sucked at first. What else do you do? You do realize that we would likely get something of value in return for the trade correct? I'm not saying give them away, but if we can make a move, better the team, and fix this 1st and 3rd cluster phuck, I'm all for it. I wouldn't want to lose Cabrerra, but I don't know if Prince has a no-trade clause or not. Like I said, signing Prince was a dumb, dumb mistake, and we're paying for it now.

Rod Allen praised him for getting up and throwing the guy out at home plate yesterday, but what he failed to mention is that most 3rd basemen would have gotten up and had enough time to fire the ball to 2nd base, turn the double play and end the inning. Instead Minny got a chance to extend the inning and add some runs. Thankfully an outfielder made a good catch to end the inning, but we got LUCKY that Minny didn't put up 7-8 runs in the first 4 innings yesterday.

July 6th, 2012, 1:59 pm

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3419Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

Ok, I understand the idea of making the team better. But what could we get for Cabrere for example that would make the team better THIS YEAR. I can kinda understand the Prince thing, but other than his defense look what Cabrera brings to the table. Who would we get in return, a bunch of prospects?

anyone see the pickoff where laird had the runner picked off of first by like 8 feet and prince blindly swiped at air allowing the guy to get back safely? how lazy can you get to not even look

July 6th, 2012, 7:06 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4026Location: WSU

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

anyone know where stats on infield hits can be found? tigers have to be among the league leaders

July 6th, 2012, 7:08 pm

buell17

Afghan Allstar

Joined: January 9th, 2006, 1:16 pmPosts: 564Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

Tigers.com wrote:

Miggy takes cuts as DH against Royals

DETROIT -- Miguel Cabrera finally moved to designated hitter for Friday's series opener against the Royals. But it was only for a day. It was only the third game for Cabrera at DH this season.

For the Tigers first baseman, who moved to third base in Spring Training for the first time in five years, that's a far better ratio than many would have expected. It's the ratio of an everyday third baseman.

On Friday, though, it was a third baseman getting a night off his feet until his spot in the order comes up.

Cabrera leads all American League third basemen in games, innings and starts at the hot corner. His .766 zone rating ranks fifth in the group, according to STATS, while his 2.58 Range Factor (putouts plus assists per nine innings) and .962 fielding percentage ranked third.

The move was manager Jim Leyland's idea to give Cabrera a rest. The skipper offered to do the same with first baseman Prince Fielder on Thursday, but Fielder declined, saying he'd rather stay in the field.

Looks like Cabrera has been stinking it up on the hot corner. All of his defensive stats are in the top 5 in the AL and games, innings and starts lead all 3B.

July 7th, 2012, 12:21 am

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 814

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

Blaming Cabrera and Prince here is a little silly to me. Sure they've make mistakes fielding but they are very consistent at the plate as they are 1-2 in RBI and HRs for the team. I'd say it much easy to point the finger at the career low outputs from Avila, Peralta, Boesch and not to mention we still have Young and Rayburn on this team. So pointing out the short coming of Cabby and Prince is more an attempt to add fuel to your earlier point in the season as an honest assessment. While I'm not saying your are completely wrong, you definitely are as correct as you think you are.

July 7th, 2012, 8:20 am

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4026Location: WSU

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

Quote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

Blaming Cabrera and Prince here is a little silly to me. Sure they've make mistakes fielding but they are very consistent at the plate as they are 1-2 in RBI and HRs for the team. I'd say it much easy to point the finger at the career low outputs from Avila, Peralta, Boesch and not to mention we still have Young and Rayburn on this team. So pointing out the short coming of Cabby and Prince is more an attempt to add fuel to your earlier point in the season as an honest assessment. While I'm not saying your are completely wrong, you definitely are as correct as you think you are

I dont think anyone is blaming Cabrera and Prince. Clearly they are great players - but one problem is that Cabrera is playing 3B and Fielder is playing 1B in almost 100% of the games. If these guys were splitting time at 1B and DH with Cabrera getting some run at 3B here and there and during interleague play it wouldnt be as much of an issue. Well, they really dont have anyone else to play 3B and they dont have anyone to bat 5th. The real underlying question is why were the Tigers sitting on there hands this offseason? Ilitch said at the conclusion of last season's playoffs that he wanted to make a couple of big free agent signings and push for a deeper playoff run. We sat back and watched middle infielders like Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Rafael Furcal, even Omar Infante sign as FAs elsewhere. Carlos Beltran was available in the OF, Aramis Ramirez was available to play 3B. Any of those guys could have helped this team. Finally we sign Prince - but it only looked like we did that because Victor Martinez got hurt - there was no indication that the Tigers were interested in Prince all along. So what was our plan up to that point? We would have still needed a No 5 hitter depending on how you write out the lineup, we still needed a 3B, we still needed a 2B? Were they planning on having Vmart play 1B and Cabrera play 3B all along?

Anyway the resultant team has terrible terrible terrible infield defense. You can look at stats all day and think that Cabrera is a top 5 defensive third baseman but you can watch a couple games and come up with your own opinion. He hasnt been horrific there but I think he s below average. Anyway whatever your opinion of Cabrera's defensive play is - its hard to deny that Prince has been a butcher at 1B. Raburn is even worse at 2B, Santiago hasnt been as good as he normally is defensively and Peralta at SS doesnt butcher plays but there are plenty of balls that he cannot get to. Maybe some of it is luck but the Tigers are giving up way too many infield hits. What makes this worse is how terrible the outfield defense has been - a year ago I thought Ryan Raburn was challenging Alex Sanchez/Roger Cedeno as the worst outfield defender I had ever seen but now I realize that Brennan Boesch is worse and that Delmon Young might as well be blindfolded out there. Certainly there isnt anyone who watches this team that thinks the defense is adequate. It seems like twice a week that an inning gets away from one of the pitchers bc of awful plays in the field.

Anyway whatever happens this season the front office has to know it cannot put this poor of a defensive team out on the field again next year. Vmart will be back and DHing next season so the Fielder 1b/Cabrera 3B thing is a lock for next season. That means you cant hide Delmon Young at DH even if he hits .300 and drives in 50 runs the rest of this season - he has to go. Are either of Andy Dirks or Quentin Berry going to be everyday starters in LF? Maybe you can make an argument for Dirks and Berry might be a decent 4th OF option but he also might be a fluke. What does Dombrowski do in RF? Boesch isnt hitting and he cant field, so when he s not hitting he is just hurting the team all around. At 2B, clearly the answer isnt on the roster or in the minor leagues. Thats a must and Im not sure why DD didnt address that position in the past. Could they move Peralta over to 2B - well who plays SS? That would just shift the problem to another position. Even if they get a 2B, can they afford to keep Peralta and Cabrera next to each other on the left side? Ground ball pitchers Porcello and Fister need the D to help them.

So - no matter how far the pitching and the big bats Jackson/Cabrera/Fielder carry the team this season it looks like a roster that needs some major renovation to correct its flaws in the offseason. What frustrates me is that it was already flawed coming into the 2012 season but the front office didnt do anything to prevent this horrid defensive team from getting on the field and the Prince signing probably handcuffs enough money that there is less flexibility to make necessary changes to this roster going forward.

July 7th, 2012, 10:24 am

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 814

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

The Legend wrote:

Quote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

Blaming Cabrera and Prince here is a little silly to me. Sure they've make mistakes fielding but they are very consistent at the plate as they are 1-2 in RBI and HRs for the team. I'd say it much easy to point the finger at the career low outputs from Avila, Peralta, Boesch and not to mention we still have Young and Rayburn on this team. So pointing out the short coming of Cabby and Prince is more an attempt to add fuel to your earlier point in the season as an honest assessment. While I'm not saying your are completely wrong, you definitely are as correct as you think you are

I dont think anyone is blaming Cabrera and Prince. Clearly they are great players - but one problem is that Cabrera is playing 3B and Fielder is playing 1B in almost 100% of the games. If these guys were splitting time at 1B and DH with Cabrera getting some run at 3B here and there and during interleague play it wouldnt be as much of an issue. Well, they really dont have anyone else to play 3B and they dont have anyone to bat 5th. The real underlying question is why were the Tigers sitting on there hands this offseason? Ilitch said at the conclusion of last season's playoffs that he wanted to make a couple of big free agent signings and push for a deeper playoff run. We sat back and watched middle infielders like Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Rafael Furcal, even Omar Infante sign as FAs elsewhere. Carlos Beltran was available in the OF, Aramis Ramirez was available to play 3B. Any of those guys could have helped this team. Finally we sign Prince - but it only looked like we did that because Victor Martinez got hurt - there was no indication that the Tigers were interested in Prince all along. So what was our plan up to that point? We would have still needed a No 5 hitter depending on how you write out the lineup, we still needed a 3B, we still needed a 2B? Were they planning on having Vmart play 1B and Cabrera play 3B all along?

Anyway the resultant team has terrible terrible terrible infield defense. You can look at stats all day and think that Cabrera is a top 5 defensive third baseman but you can watch a couple games and come up with your own opinion. He hasnt been horrific there but I think he s below average. Anyway whatever your opinion of Cabrera's defensive play is - its hard to deny that Prince has been a butcher at 1B. Raburn is even worse at 2B, Santiago hasnt been as good as he normally is defensively and Peralta at SS doesnt butcher plays but there are plenty of balls that he cannot get to. Maybe some of it is luck but the Tigers are giving up way too many infield hits. What makes this worse is how terrible the outfield defense has been - a year ago I thought Ryan Raburn was challenging Alex Sanchez/Roger Cedeno as the worst outfield defender I had ever seen but now I realize that Brennan Boesch is worse and that Delmon Young might as well be blindfolded out there. Certainly there isnt anyone who watches this team that thinks the defense is adequate. It seems like twice a week that an inning gets away from one of the pitchers bc of awful plays in the field.

Anyway whatever happens this season the front office has to know it cannot put this poor of a defensive team out on the field again next year. Vmart will be back and DHing next season so the Fielder 1b/Cabrera 3B thing is a lock for next season. That means you cant hide Delmon Young at DH even if he hits .300 and drives in 50 runs the rest of this season - he has to go. Are either of Andy Dirks or Quentin Berry going to be everyday starters in LF? Maybe you can make an argument for Dirks and Berry might be a decent 4th OF option but he also might be a fluke. What does Dombrowski do in RF? Boesch isnt hitting and he cant field, so when he s not hitting he is just hurting the team all around. At 2B, clearly the answer isnt on the roster or in the minor leagues. Thats a must and Im not sure why DD didnt address that position in the past. Could they move Peralta over to 2B - well who plays SS? That would just shift the problem to another position. Even if they get a 2B, can they afford to keep Peralta and Cabrera next to each other on the left side? Ground ball pitchers Porcello and Fister need the D to help them.

So - no matter how far the pitching and the big bats Jackson/Cabrera/Fielder carry the team this season it looks like a roster that needs some major renovation to correct its flaws in the offseason. What frustrates me is that it was already flawed coming into the 2012 season but the front office didnt do anything to prevent this horrid defensive team from getting on the field and the Prince signing probably handcuffs enough money that there is less flexibility to make necessary changes to this roster going forward.

You might not be blaming Prince and Cabby but it's hard to read what wjb is writing and not feel like he is blaming them. Please correct me if I'm wrong but when you say the only way to fix the team is trading Price or Cabrera I get the impression that the author is saying they together are the problem.

July 7th, 2012, 11:51 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

buell17 wrote:

Tigers.com wrote:

Miggy takes cuts as DH against Royals

DETROIT -- Miguel Cabrera finally moved to designated hitter for Friday's series opener against the Royals. But it was only for a day. It was only the third game for Cabrera at DH this season.

For the Tigers first baseman, who moved to third base in Spring Training for the first time in five years, that's a far better ratio than many would have expected. It's the ratio of an everyday third baseman.

On Friday, though, it was a third baseman getting a night off his feet until his spot in the order comes up.

Cabrera leads all American League third basemen in games, innings and starts at the hot corner. His .766 zone rating ranks fifth in the group, according to STATS, while his 2.58 Range Factor (putouts plus assists per nine innings) and .962 fielding percentage ranked third.

The move was manager Jim Leyland's idea to give Cabrera a rest. The skipper offered to do the same with first baseman Prince Fielder on Thursday, but Fielder declined, saying he'd rather stay in the field.

Looks like Cabrera has been stinking it up on the hot corner. All of his defensive stats are in the top 5 in the AL and games, innings and starts lead all 3B.

There are three types of lies...

aManNamedSuh wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

What I think is hilarious is that the Twins basically are the team that Dombrowski wanted to build (good defense, and speedy), and we have the exact opposite team.

Anyone that still thinks Prince was money well spent is a fool. IMO any serious trade has to involve moving Prince, or, unfortunately, Cabrerra. One of them has to go. This team will continue to be awful on D as long as those two are in the infield together.

Today's game was even worse. We had no business winning that game and Cabrerra STUNK today at 3rd, and Prince STUNK today at first. It's pitiful how bad our infield is.

Blaming Cabrera and Prince here is a little silly to me. Sure they've make mistakes fielding but they are very consistent at the plate as they are 1-2 in RBI and HRs for the team. I'd say it much easy to point the finger at the career low outputs from Avila, Peralta, Boesch and not to mention we still have Young and Rayburn on this team. So pointing out the short coming of Cabby and Prince is more an attempt to add fuel to your earlier point in the season as an honest assessment. While I'm not saying your are completely wrong, you definitely are as correct as you think you are.

Someone that was hired for his bat and makes $20 million a year BETTER DAMN WELL BE first or second on the team in RBIs and HRs. Why even bring that up?

You want to blame Peralta, Boesch, and Avila for the losses? They're playing EXACTLY LIKE THEY HAVE THEIR WHOLE CAREER. You really thought they were going to play to 2011 levels for the rest of their lives? Everyone knew they were performing beyond their long-term capabilities last year. To expect that out of them every year is flat out silly.

My pointing out of Cabby and Princes' shortcomings is quite simply, restating what I said would happen when we signed Prince - that our defense would suffer, it would off-set the increase in offensive production, and it would be a WASTE OF MONEY - which it has been, flat out. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and we're getting beat by teams that spend literally a THIRD of what we're spending. That's disgusting, but that's what happens when you have two of the best first basemen in the game, and you have one of them play 3rd.

July 10th, 2012, 3:42 pm

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 814

Re: Should the Tigers buy or sell at the trade deadline?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

My pointing out of Cabby and Princes' shortcomings is quite simply, restating what I said would happen when we signed Prince - that our defense would suffer, it would off-set the increase in offensive production, and it would be a WASTE OF MONEY - which it has been, flat out. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and we're getting beat by teams that spend literally a THIRD of what we're spending. That's disgusting, but that's what happens when you have two of the best first basemen in the game, and you have one of them play 3rd.

This states your point perfectly and I understand your point clearly. I think the second half of the season and going into next season you'll see better play, they just need to get a quality 2nd baseman to anchor in infield and I think Cabby will improve after a full season under his belt back at 3rd. As for Fielder, he has never been a great 1st baseman, so I don't think his play will improve on defense. But I think his Offensive number will explode once he is completely used to Comerica Park.