Yes, there is a Naval Test range that covers a large area (bigger than many states), and then there is a Naval Training base within the test range and it is much smaller and more focused obviously (not just endless dirt). It isn't showing up anymore. Kind of weird if you ask me. They used to test nukes out there. Many people in Utah are children of the "Down-winders" who died of leukemia and other radiation caused illnesses from nuke tests in the 40's and 50's. The stuff all blew down wind into central and southern Utah. Radiation levels are still spiked a bit in the St. George, Utah/Mesquite, Nevada area.

Dugway proving ground is the creepiest. It is right over the hill from here, and we see convoys of armed Apaches popping up over the hill and flying over our neighborhood about once a week out of Dugway. I saw them again the other day, and my son couldn't believe they had weapons on them, bu there they were. I'll try to snap a photo of the airspace over my house and hope my place isn't ransacked and I end up in "secret court". Laughing... for now.

This site covers all kinds of cool stuff the government has been doing behind our backs since the 1940's. Remember the group of people in jumpsuits that boarded the alien craft at the end of Close Encounters of the Third Kind?

Not too far from the real thing...

"...Seattle has become the capital city of the New NFL" - Kip Earlywine Remembering "The Radish"...

Do you REALLY think the CIA (or any of the other alphabet groups) is going to suddenly say, "Hey, you know what? The UFO crazies have been right all along! We DO have extraterrestrial technology we have been reverse engineering for decades...In fact, the technology is so far advanced from our own it makes us look like preschoolers walking into Harvard by comparison!"

Please. This sudden announcement by the CIA that Area 51 is real after all is insulting to everyone's intelligence. Well, at least those who are paying attention.

It's no different than when the Air Force published yet another addendum to their "Roswell Case Closed" manifesto. Lordy.

It's not that I don't think that Aliens exist/ever existed, but the likelihood of us having any kind of contact with them is so improbable it hurts my brain.

Not only do you have to have two intelligent civilizations living simultaneously but at least one of them has to have the capabilities to travel incredible distances. And, in addition to travelling incredible distances end up actually landing on our planet. 1 of 8 in our system, 1 of 200 billion stars in our galaxy, 1 of 170B galaxies (which some of these galaxies have hundreds of trillions of stars) in the observable universe.

Not to mention the 270 Million stars that are born each day as well as an equal amount that die.

I enjoy ruining threads by making them about personal attacks and then commenting about how personal attacks make the other person's argument invalid.

I caution any paradigms that come from anthropomorphism when it comes to the UFO/ET debate.

Your assumptions Sonic - all due respect, and I mean that - are based on the thought processes of a primitive species - relatively speaking. I think it's no stretch to assume there are other civilizations out there that are thousands, millions of years ahead of our own. Assuming that's the case, certainly they have a much more refined definition of what is, and what is not possible. From technology to spirituality. What may be "incredible distances" to you and I, are not even a thought to a species that can manipulate time and space as easily as you and I can pour a cup of coffee in the morning.

This is why it is so difficult for our species to even entertain the notion that not only are we not alone in the universe, but they in fact could be right here. Right now.

If a species is that far advanced than our own, it's quite likely that they can remain as undetectable as they desire. From cloaking/invisibility to manipulating the molecular structure of matter to move through "solid" objects, that may be just the beginning of what a hypothetically advanced species is capable of.

In other words, what we deem as limitations is merely our current understanding of the universe, life, consciousness and may in fact have very little bearing on the truth of the possibilities that lie ahead with exponential knowledge.

SonicHawk wrote:It's not that I don't think that Aliens exist/ever existed, but the likelihood of us having any kind of contact with them is so improbable it hurts my brain.

Not only do you have to have two intelligent civilizations living simultaneously but at least one of them has to have the capabilities to travel incredible distances. And, in addition to travelling incredible distances end up actually landing on our planet. 1 of 8 in our system, 1 of 200 billion stars in our galaxy, 1 of 170B galaxies (which some of these galaxies have hundreds of trillions of stars) in the observable universe.

Not to mention the 270 Million stars that are born each day as well as an equal amount that die.

Ender's Game brings up some interesting things... It is worth a read. When it was written I remember people laughing about things like the idea that a brilliant young kid could take over power through the media via an electronic network. They laughed at the tablets kids used to use "the nets". Guess what? That stuff was only a FEW years away. iPads and "the nets" are a matter of daily life for most of us. It is our existence. The idea that an unknown person could gain a large following on a "message board" was laughable, but it is happening. Look at things like the Drudge Report or the Huffington Post. Hundreds of thousands of people read those and take what they say as gospel. The character of Locke and Demosthenes are not so far-fetched in this age, but were laughed at as "silly science fiction" just a few years ago. My how times change.

Then Card throws in his discussion of a device that can transmit communications faster than light (the Ansible) was laughed at due to the speed that radio waves are "limited to", but the Ansible didn't use radio communications. People laughed. Haha. Card is crazy. Nothing like that will EVER happen. But wait...other stuff he spoke of in his loony story happened and is in the process of happening, and yet the idea of the Ansible is so freaking crazy. Why? Because nobody has thought in the terms of what can be?

Tell me that Jules Verne was crazy. A lot of people said he was. He was dreaming. The things he wrote about seemed silly at the time and then they HAPPENED... within ONE generation of him writing them.

Let's not be so down on the idea that other civilizations could be around longer than us and already conquered things like submarines thousands of years ago and therefore have developed technologies like an Ansible as would seem likely when you look at the exponential speed of technology advance once you hit the tipping point (electricity -> computers happened very fast... computers -> microcomputers happened way faster... microcomputers to nanoprocessors happened almost impossibly faster). The jump is quick once the spark is ignited.

I'm only 40... yes, I said only, because I know many of you are my age or older, and my grandmother and grandfather who lived well into the late 1990's recalled the first time they saw an AIRPLANE and they couldn't wrap their heads around it. They also remembered the invention of PLASTIC for crying out loud. My grandpa's family moved in a covered wagon. I'm not making this up... and he flew on Jumbo Jets in his prime years. That's a fast technology jump. He used to ride a donkey to a coal mine that he worked in Park City, Utah. Yes.... a donkey. He'd ride it up on Sunday morning from his home in Midway, Utah and get there in time to work on Monday at 5:00 and then would head back down to Midway on Friday night after work at 8:00 PM, because they didn't have a 40 hour work week. The dude drove a fuel injected aluminum head V-6 Chrysler New Yorker for the last 7 years of his life. But he rode a damned donkey to work when he was younger.

Think about it... these jumps in technology that we are making are impressive... and we aren't all that great.

Aros wrote:Shark, I would love to sit down with you and have a drink or five and talk cool shit.

Let's plan it. I'm coming up in October for a wedding during our fall school break. We'll probably be there Thursday evening through Sunday night (or early Monday AM) on the weekend of the game against Tennessee. If we can fly up, we may be there from Wednesday afternoon until Monday afternoon(!). If we can't find time then, I'll try to fly back up at some point. I've got to see my aunt. She's getting sicker and I need to get up there often to be with her and support my cousin who is running the show solo with great stress.

I also have reconnected with a bunch of my friends from growing up in Federal Way/Auburn and we're going to try to get together more regularly, so they want me to get my butt up and visit. I finally feel like I am being called back home and need to make the more frequent pilgrimages.

SharkHawk wrote:I'm only 40... yes, I said only, because I know many of you are my age or older, and my grandmother and grandfather who lived well into the late 1990's recalled the first time they saw an AIRPLANE and they couldn't wrap their heads around it. They also remembered the invention of PLASTIC for crying out loud. My grandpa's family moved in a covered wagon. I'm not making this up... and he flew on Jumbo Jets in his prime years. That's a fast technology jump. He used to ride a donkey to a coal mine that he worked in Park City, Utah. Yes.... a donkey. He'd ride it up on Sunday morning from his home in Midway, Utah and get there in time to work on Monday at 5:00 and then would head back down to Midway on Friday night after work at 8:00 PM, because they didn't have a 40 hour work week. The dude drove a fuel injected aluminum head V-6 Chrysler New Yorker for the last 7 years of his life. But he rode a damned donkey to work when he was younger.

I love this paragraph, interesting stuff.

A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP

Anyway, I've gotten the black sedan treatment twice in the last 5 days. Not kidding. I just thought I'd give you guys the update. Then I pulled out of my neighborhood today and these two cholos in a black car started following me out (they were waiting across the way at the side of the road at a light where I move onto the highway).

They pulled in behind me... moved up... made direct eye contact... backed off followed for about 2 miles. Then I slowed way down, and they did too. Then I sped up and they pulled up next to me again, turned... both made extended eye contact for about 30 seconds. Then they sped up and got right in front of me trying to see if I'd move out and speed past as they slowed down. I slowed down and let them continue to do what they were doing and they were getting frustrated obviously and got boxed in by two other vehicles and I split off and hit I-15 south and they got forced across the freeway because it was near rush hour (6 PM). They slowed way down as they crossed the bridge over where I was entering the freeway and seemed to be tracking me as I moved out onto the freeway. Finally as I hit the freeway they took off across the bridge at high speed. I didn't see them on the freeway again.

On Saturday I went outside and a black car was sitting around the corner and followed me out of the neighborhood.

On Monday, I went outside after I got home from work to check on our babysitter's car (which has been giving her fits). I wasn't getting into my Tacoma, but rather I got into her Hyundai which was parked on the street, and immediately upon starting it and driving away a black totally bland base model Dodge Avenger (brand new) pulled in behind me out of nowhere. It wasn't any of my neighbors. I know all of their cars, and we are all youngish (I am the oldest guy on the block and I'm 40).

This was a middle-aged woman with long blonde hair driving behind me. But I was testing out the girl's car because she said her brakes were acting funny. This car was up on me in a furious hurry speeding up to catch me as I took off in the Hyundai. Then it backed way off... I was jumping up and hitting the brakes hard to see what was wrong. I saw the black car almost mirroring what I was doing, but at a trailing distance of about 1/8 mile. I then got out of the development and hit the main road. I usually turn right and hit the highway which is about 2 blocks south of us. The black car seemed to be following my usual pattern as I moved over toward the right to turn that way at the 4 way stop. They put on their signal and started moving over. I hadn't signaled though, so I just went straight. Then she takes off her blinker and goes straight too. I go right up to the elementary school where they are having back to school night, and go straight again... she follows and then I get out my iphone at the stop sign and start filming her and I'm holding my phone up and aiming it at rear view mirror height and filming and I can see her and the car on the screen... she is wearing shades and such, and then she is looking at me closely (like craning her neck forward) and then pulls right and tears off in front of the school and keeps going toward the highway 2 blocks north. I go a block further up and u-turn back around and get back to the intersection just in time to see her blast through the intersection on the highway toward the same place where the cholos I saw today came from.

All a bit unsettling. I know if you're looking for something, you're going to see it. So I'm just paranoid most likely, but this was all a bit strange.

After the incident today I tweeted to my brothers "Paranoia is real. The guy on the Lucky Charms box told me so." They got a good laugh. I think I'm getting paranoid, but the 3 black non-descript cars, and one of them having two asshats that seem like the typical clowns that get paid a $20 and told to "follow somebody" and make them uncomfortable was a bit much. I was ready to film cholo 1 and 2 today, but they were dumb enough to have a wrap thing on their rear window that had the name of a local company on it (guys do that around here to make a few extra bucks by advertising). They were advertising this dumpy garage door place. So I could find out who they were in five seconds by going in and giving the owner a $20 and telling him some of his "employees" were being dicks. These guys seemed like the kind of hustlers who get contacted by those who want something done that is just mindless and requires somebody that won't be tracked back to them. I'm seriously thinking that me filming the random middle aged lady in the Dodge spooked her bad.

Am I crazy? Probably. But it is interesting that I predicted it would happen like before, and then did 3 times in 5 days. Makes you wonder...

I realize I said twice at the top... it's actually 3 times. The twice was referring to black sedans, the third black car with the cholos was not a sedan. It was a Honda Civic that was black, so obviously nothing like the other two cars, but their behavior was VERY peculiar for this area. The "tough guy" thing just doesn't happen around here. If it did I'd be carrying in my vehicle. But I don't, as I've never felt threatened and honestly have never lost a fight, so I'm naive or something. But I just felt CREEPY when those guys were looking at me giving me the "you're screwed and you don't even know it" look. Oh well. I'll find out who they were and kick their balls in.

The "cholos" were wearing all black and sunglasses. They were not wearing suits. They are typical of the untraceable hire/watch people for $15 type. My sister has hired some guys that are just like that to do stupid work on her divorce case. They are easy to find, all seem to run in the same crowd, and only a real amateur or somebody who was trying to look like an amateur would put those fools on your tail.

I do have the video of the Avenger. However, it only caught the end of it, and then I brought my phone down as I hurried through the intersection that they suddenly turned right at (you can see them pulling in right behind me because I stopped at the stop sign way too long). Once they saw me with my camera up they hurried and pulled right with a quick blinker as I moved through and then I am preparing to wheel around and start filming again, but they hauled butt out of there right in front of the school where parents were going into back to school night. I'll see if I can upload it. The only interesting part is the first 3 seconds. Then it is a lot of shots of my gray beard and me trying to get the phone back into position to film out the side window as I u-turn around a few hundred feet up. They were out of range by the time I got through and I had to drop it. I didn't want to fly by the school with hundreds of kids and parents and follow this person. I just let them be.

I have done circles a couple of times. That was what I intended to do when driving the Hyundai. I was running late for a doctor's appointment or I would have allowed wannabe 1 and 2 to tail me all over the city. Then I would have pulled into the police station. I was getting ready to call the cops using the bluetooth in the stereo without them knowing I was talking to them if they had made it onto the freeway and then have the cops intercept them in my destination city (my friend is the head of the police force in the city where my doctor's appt. was... it is about 15 miles away). He would have certainly gone over or sent somebody over to intercept them as I exited the freeway. I just could not miss this appt. and wasn't exactly going to be on time. I have to see the doc once a month and it is do or die. I'm hoping one of the creeps from Camp Williams is out and bored this weekend. I'll see what I can come up with.

My neighbor has invited me to a barbecue at his house tonight. We'll see what he thinks. Haha. He is a great guy and fully honors everything to do with his job. I don't even know exactly what he does, because he is vague about it. I was talking to him about Area 51 being revealed as I said, and he was really surprised that it was. That makes me wonder in a way... because he's "in the Air Force". Probably just paranoia on my part. I'm glad he's on our side. Brilliant guy. Totally dedicated and a top notch person. Totally helps everybody with moving, yard work, anything heavy duty, but also speaks 3 languages, has served combat missions and is just a neat person. I am grateful for our military... genuinely and always, and feel bad that some of them are put in a bad position with their careers. I know how much it can hurt a family.

I've seen it firsthand from a dad who had to keep his mouth shut for years when he had certain clearances, and my mom and he just stopped talking because "how was work dear?" Grumble grumble. I also had a cousin that was in the CIA and couldn't tell anybody what he did, but he lost a son during childbirth and had another one seriously maimed at childbirth due to the horrible hospital facilities in Hong Kong for "civilians" which is what he had to pretend to be. If he had gone to a base for medical care for his family it would have exposed him. Due to that they lost a child. I am reminded of it each time I visit my grandparent's graves and see the one child's headstone next to my grandparents. Sad.

Aros wrote:I caution any paradigms that come from anthropomorphism when it comes to the UFO/ET debate.

Your assumptions Sonic - all due respect, and I mean that - are based on the thought processes of a primitive species - relatively speaking. I think it's no stretch to assume there are other civilizations out there that are thousands, millions of years ahead of our own. Assuming that's the case, certainly they have a much more refined definition of what is, and what is not possible. From technology to spirituality. What may be "incredible distances" to you and I, are not even a thought to a species that can manipulate time and space as easily as you and I can pour a cup of coffee in the morning.

This is why it is so difficult for our species to even entertain the notion that not only are we not alone in the universe, but they in fact could be right here. Right now.

If a species is that far advanced than our own, it's quite likely that they can remain as undetectable as they desire. From cloaking/invisibility to manipulating the molecular structure of matter to move through "solid" objects, that may be just the beginning of what a hypothetically advanced species is capable of.

In other words, what we deem as limitations is merely our current understanding of the universe, life, consciousness and may in fact have very little bearing on the truth of the possibilities that lie ahead with exponential knowledge.

That's why I stated improbable and not impossible. However, I'm still confident in my assertion simply because of the sheer size and distance of the Universe and it's trillions upon trillions of celestial bodies. If there are aliens able to travel great distances while flexing time and space I certainly don't view them as a threat, well, I mean besides sucking the energy out of our sun to power their hypothetical spacecraft.

I enjoy ruining threads by making them about personal attacks and then commenting about how personal attacks make the other person's argument invalid.

I have my doubts that aliens have ever been to our planet, for many of the same reasons Sonic outlined earlier. However due to the unbelievable vastness of space I do believe that other life exists out there somewhere, in some form or other.

But I do think that the human race is wired to believe that we are important and significant, that we are more than insignificant flyspecks in the universe. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course. But to me, the notion that there are intelligent creatures, more advanced in their evolution to the point where their technology far exceeds ours, who somehow not only found our tiny speck of a planet amongst the trillions of planets in the universe but were compromised by our inferior technology/intelligence so that they remain a government controlled secret...

SonicHawk wrote:It's not that I don't think that Aliens exist/ever existed, but the likelihood of us having any kind of contact with them is so improbable it hurts my brain.

Not only do you have to have two intelligent civilizations living simultaneously but at least one of them has to have the capabilities to travel incredible distances. And, in addition to travelling incredible distances end up actually landing on our planet. 1 of 8 in our system, 1 of 200 billion stars in our galaxy, 1 of 170B galaxies (which some of these galaxies have hundreds of trillions of stars) in the observable universe.

Not to mention the 270 Million stars that are born each day as well as an equal amount that die.

I feel like the numbers you're throwing out here actually increase the likelihood of there being an intelligent species that can roam the universe and find other forms of life.

"Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from the threat of force."

I saw one car that was all black that pulled up right next to me and the guy gets out a cell phone and starts talking into it a mile a minute and staring right at me. He had full tinted windows, which is totally illegal here... he just kept talking and looking at me. It was funny. I just kept looking right back. He finally pulled off at the same intersection where the other guys had come out of to follow me. Wacky stuff.

Now I'll probably get it twice as bad. I keep meaning to post this video, but you only see the car in the first two seconds, then the last seven seconds is me almost dropping my phone as I try to do a u-turn. Every time I watch it and see that Avenger pull up that hurried and turned right when they saw my phone I get the heebie jeebies. I wish I had kept the phone up, but I was hurrying and flipping around to go back after them as I had gone through the intersection and they clearly are going straight as you see in the video, but I go through... they go right, and I hurry and pull a U-ey about fifty feet later to try to get back behind them and tail them. Oh well. Let's see if Photobucket will host it.