1 Timothy 2:15: "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety."

Where is her chance to be saved, and if she repents and wants to live as a normal woman, the state has just prevented her from doing so. This "physician" should be hung.

Well, this is in the same country that has abortion on demand, leaves babies who have survived their mother's abortion attempt in a bucket to die, and only provides an infant of previable gestational age (an infant born under 23 weeks) with "comfort care," (they are not given any food or necessary medical care) leaving them to die.

God help this country!

NSch (not identic to the NS on other post!)

These women are not traditionalist Catholics though. If they were and married and rearing God fearing children it would be another matter. These black women are not saved by child bearing because they are raising ungodly children who are wreaking havoc and crime on the nation. They in turn are getting government handouts for this read Ecclesiasticus Chapter 16

16:1 Rejoice not in ungodly children, if they be multiplied: neither be delighted in them, if the fear of God be not with them.

16:2 Trust not to their life, and respect not their labours.

16:3 For better is one that feareth God, than a thousand ungodly children.

16:4 And it is better to die without children, than to leave ungodly children.

Friend

Yes, but sterilisation of anyone, is a grave sin. We should hope and pray for their repentence, assist them with it, and expect that they do act as holy women.

I suspect that many "Christian" men like to use the above passage you quote to justify disrepecting unGodly women, and grave evil being done to them. This is in the Old Testament - the New Convenant is additionally about love, all children being a blessing, and forgiveness.

I do not think that these women should multiply if they are not married, but for those who are, I encourage them to do so, and be Godly mothers who raise Godly children. But all children should rejoiced in and delighted in. The above passage sounds very Jewish or Muslim. We no longer stone people, either.

NSch

That is the point, they aren't married but having children with multiple male partners in order to get government benefits. These children will grow up with the same criminal outlooks. If I was in charge I would just expel these unrepentant repeat offenders from the nation. There are only so many times we are told to give them the information they need to convert, if they do not then we have to be separate from them.

Friend

I agree, but is the Godly solution to sterilise these women?

NSch

Why should we delight in children who are raised in heathenism that will rob, rape, and murder?

No the solution as I said is expulsion. Both sides in the matter are non Catholic I am sure.

Friend

Because all children are a gift from the Lord, regardless of the status of their parents union, and regardless of their parents' depravity. This is just Christian belief. All human life is sacred, and we are to give thanks for and love all children.

NSch

Ungodly children are not a gift.

Because they grow up to be ungodly adults.

If they convert then that is another matter.

Friend

That is a very fatalistic attitude.

What do you mean by "both sides in the matter…"?

I, HGL

Eugenicism was wrong when Pope Pius XI condemned it and is wrong still.

I to NSch

"These women are not traditionalist Catholics though. "

Pope Pius XI never said a word on the ban on Eugenicism applying ONLY to families that are traditionally Catholic. The words "be fruitful and multiply" were said to Adam and Eve, God knowing full well they would fall and that one of their children would be Kain, the first murderer. They are ancestors of ALL men, not of Catholics only.

"These black women are not saved by child bearing because they are raising ungodly children who are wreaking havoc and crime on the nation."

That is a thing you cannot know in advance of anyone.

By saying that beforehand, you make yourself a servant of the evil idol Apollo, or better named Apollyon.

You bring upon yourself the curse of those going to soothsayers.

A lady these last days told me she had been praying on the burial of one named John, she had seen the eagle of St John the Apostle in Church, then she asked a man to read the coffee dregs. I believe her she saw an eagle in the coffee dregs. I also told her not to consult coffee dregs again (they are useful as fertilisers).

But you are doing something infinitely much worse than asking someone for fun to read the coffee dregs.

Reading a horoscope for fun is a venial sin, and that is [basically] what she did.

Running one's own or someone else's life according to a horoscope is a mortal sin against the faith, and that is what you just approved of.

Heathen, I am not wishing YOU happiness this Easter!

Ecclesiasticus 16 applies to parents already seeing their children, like Eli who knew his sons were undevout and unfit for the priesthood - not because of what he could say beforehadn knowing himself, but because of what he saw while raising them and seeing them in action.

Abraham gave an example. When he saw how Ishmael harrassed his half brother, the Father in Faith did not rejoice in Ishmael, but chase him away.

I to Friend

"This is in the Old Testament - the New Convenant is additionally about love, all children being a blessing, and forgiveness."

Ecclesiasticus, as said, did not recommend sterilising anyone.

I to NSch

"That is the point, they aren't married but having children with multiple male partners in order to get government benefits."

So cut the doles, not the ovular tubes!

"These children will grow up with the same criminal outlooks."

There you go again serving Apollo, that is Satan, by false prophecy.

"There are only so many times we are told to give them the information they need to convert, if they do not then we have to be separate from them."

Expelling foreigners who have a land of origin elsewhere is an option.

Sterilising anyone, with or against her or his will, is, to a Christian [or any honest person], NOT.

In the last days men heading doctrines of evil spirits will forbid people to marry. That is not about monasticism, since that is voluntary and Jeremiah and Eliah gave an example. It is about YOU.

Note, when I said to cut the dole, I mean for everybody, legally.

Not for the 150 women by decision of administration.

Cutting the dole for everyone, on top of cutting excuses for such crimes as were recently perpetrated in California prisons [againt female prisoners, by doctors], also allows cutting taxes.

God curse "responsible rich" who want to keep taxes and government control of who has and who hasn't children going!

I to Friend

A little correction: "This 'physician' should be hung." I suppose you mean THESE physicianS, but otehrwise I agree. The doctors' trial after WW-II was derisory.

Thanks to this, it may at last be known outside Austria too that this man, who has a Swastika and not any Cross on his grave, whose headstone features no Cross even for the date of his death (and no star for the date of his birth, just "24.3.1897 - 27.7.1934", no star and no cross), who died in the July Putsch of 1934, who was a comrade thus with the other Nazi who killed Dollfuss, who was an SA Sturmbannführer, and who was called Hans Tita Probst, was a Medical Doctor ...

I think a Schwarzenegger ought to take a good and long talk with these doctors. I think he should do so in the same spirit as his role Conan did with the role Thulsa Doom.

Hoch Dollfuss!

I on article

"The Supreme Court ruled in 1927 that women can be forcibly sterilized in jail in Buck vs Bell."

US of 1920's - prototype of Nazism. When Chesterton spoke to Mussolini in I think 1935, the latter still had the good sense to call racialism a Protestant fad. So sad that the book of his visit to Rome is NOT online.

This ruling was in the wake of legislations, state after state, which were, God be thanked, revoked in the 1970's. Precisely as in Sweden and Canada. IN Germany rectification came as early as 1945.

True pro-life: repeal Buck vs Bell AND Roe vs Wade.

I to Friend

"I do not think that these women should multiply if they are not married,"

If they have any sex, they should multiply rather than be sterilised or use condoms or pills - or obviously abortions.

NSch

Hans you are nuts and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. The scripture is valid here and very clear in what it is saying, which is ungodly children are a curse not a blessing!.

It is very clear that these women popping out these children are a curse on the nation as well. Sorry, but if you want to pay for them so they can grow up to rape and murder YOU can. If you want to pay in YOUR blood, and YOUR children's blood when they rape, beat, and murder you and your family that is fine. Don't ask the rest of us rational people to pay that same price because you want to be irrational and sanctimonious, and forget that God has also commanded us to separate from the wicked.

Seems like a lot of the feminine attitude of the modernist novus ordo is being spouted here, which leaves all common sense out the window.

These are basically a godless people consuming us and our nations by sheer numbers.

The truth is our ancestors probably would not have worried about sterilizing them, they would have just put them to the sword because they are unrepentant and a danger to society. Wake up. Yes my option would be to banish them from the nation if I was in charge, but I am not going to cry if these criminal and ungodly women can't bear anymore thugs who will grow up to murder my kids and grandchildren. You are absolutely insane if you think our nations are better off full of Godless heathens.

These types have been targeted for conversion over and over again and it does not work, they always slip back into their wicked ways. Haiti is a prime example, they were given Catholicism and they go back to their witch doctor religion or pollute Catholicism with their demonic rituals. Please get a clue.
Unless you practice arranged marriages, you personally use a form of eugenics when you select a mate whether it be based on looks or intelligence . I seriously doubt you would choose someone with downs syndrome to marry because you would be unequally yoked. Even if you practice arranged marriage, the parents would be looking for good genetic qualities in the partner they are choosing for their children.

HGL

Scripture is very clear that it is talking about sons already observed as ungodly. NOT presumed in advance to be so by your Averroistic predictions.

When the Song of Roland accused Sarracens of adoring "Mahound, Apollo and Termagant", the Muslim religion as such is what was meant by Mahound, but the fatalism that later was named Averroes and tried to invade Sorbonne, which was expulsed by St Thomas Aquinas and Bishop Stephen II Tempier, is what was meant by "Apollo".

YOU have shown yourself a disciple of Apollo, and not of Scripture.

"Unless you practice arranged marriages, you personally use a form of eugenics when you select a mate whether it be based on looks or intelligence ."

Oh really? No, if that is eugenics, everyone is eugenicist. But cutting off ovular tubes is what is commonly meant by it.

You speak of common sense and what not, but you have lost yours, when you said this:

"Sorry, but if you want to pay for them so they can grow up to rape and murder YOU can. "

I had very clearly said that I wanted the dole cut over all of the line.

"You are absolutely insane if you think our nations are better off full of Godless heathens."

You are a heathen and hardly very sane if you think you can predict someone will in the future grow up that way, just because his or her mother has been in prison.

NSch

No common sense Hans. That is why we are in trouble. How many Saints have unwed, repeat criminal, black mothers produced? Please I am waiting for you to name one.

Like I said. I am for expulsion. Their rotten fruit is all over this country and I don't see anything good coming from it. Your inability to look at things as a collective is the problem.

HGL

St Christopher had a pretty bad start in life. He was 9 feet tall and had a dog's head. I do not suppose his mother was a godly woman.

His first decision was to serve the mightiest king. Then he saw this king afraid of the devil and he served the devil. THEN he saw the devil afraid of a crucifix, and he decided to serve the man depicted on it.

THAT was how he started to become a saint. As you said sth about Novus Ordo, my beef with it is that it cut St Christopher out of the calendar.

I am NOT unable to look at things in the collective. I am saying that expulsion is a clear option - collectively - in cases where a homeland to which a community still has clear ties exists. That is not quite the case with Black Americans. And it is not the case with Black Americans either that all or even most of them are prison inmates.

But looking in the collective is one thing, looking into the future of a particular is another thing.

NSch

The future is determined by past behavior. A leopard seldom changes his spots. There is no successful black nation, all of them are riddled with crime and disease. There is a reason the Church confined the Jews to ghettos or expelled them. They are judged on their past actions and behavior.

HGL

"The future is determined by past behavior."

No.

"A leopard seldom changes his spots."

A leopard has no free will either.

NSch

hmmm The Church makes a prediction here about the behavior of Jews and Muslims which is why they were restricted and segregated from corrupting society with their actions

Whence it sometimes happens through error that Christians mingle with the women of Jews and Mohammedans and, on the other hand, Jews and Mohammedans mingle with those of Christians. Therefore, in order that such ruinous commingling of this kind through error may not serve as a refuge for further excuse for excess, We decree that such people of both sexes, that is, Jews and Mohammedans, be distinguished in public by a difference in dress in every province of Christendom and at all times, since this was also enjoined on such people by Moses.- IV Lateran Council

HGL

"There is a reason the Church confined the Jews to ghettos or expelled them. They are judged on their past actions and behavior."

Not quite, they are, as long as remaining Jews, judged on their confession. Which involves an approval of certain past behaviours, like rejecting Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Plus the Church never made individual predictions about this or that Jew converting.

"The Church makes a prediction here about the behavior of Jews and Muslims which is why they were restricted and segregated from corrupting society with their actions"

Not a correct reading.

Whence it sometimes happens through error that Christians mingle with the women of Jews and Mohammedans and, on the other hand, Jews and Mohammedans mingle with those of Christians. Therefore, in order that such ruinous commingling of this kind through error may not serve as a refuge for further excuse for excess, We decree that such people of both sexes, that is, Jews and Mohammedans, be distinguished in public by a difference in dress in every province of Christendom and at all times, since this was also enjoined on such people by Moses.- IV Lateran Council

No prediction about any single person. No dooming of any single person according to his past behaviour.

A dress can easily be laid off when one converts.

A testicular or ovular tube can not so easily be repaired, nor a killed child restored.

The Church wanted to remove an excuse. The doctors wanted to remove a physical occasion, i e control what happens. Not just - a bit insofar as a regulation can help - how responsible people get for it.

Btw, I have argued that if a distinctive dress can legitimately be imposed, it can also legitimately be voluntarily chosen by those concerned. Hence my opposition to bans on wearing the veil.

NSch

You just don't get it. The Church is going to look at things in the collective sense what you are refusing to do.

" On account of these and other serious matters, and because of the gravity of their crimes which increase day to day more and more, We order that, within 90 days, ALL Jews in our entire earthly realm of justice -- in all towns, districts, and places -- must depart these regions. ~ Pope St. Pius V (From his Bull, "The Jewish Race," Feb.26, 1569; PAC, p.648).

Pius the V orders them all out, he isn't worried that one might convert. He puts the greater good first. The greater good for our nations would be to expel these criminal women, popping out ungodly children who will grow into ungodly adults.

HGL

I am, first of all, not refusing to look in the collective and not proposing that collective expulsions are illegal.

The earthly realm of Justice of Pope St Pius V was Romagna, and little more. An expulsion not very unbearable. 100 km voyage and they had 90 days to comply.

NSch

Our ancestors more and likely would have put them to death, or burned them at the stake so sterilization isn't even an issue here.

HGL

Our ancestors would very certainly NOT have put anyone to either noose or stake for such petty crimes as landed some of the 150 in prison, especially if it was for repeated offenses rather than for very big crimes.

A person who is executed has no additional pains for not having children.

And expelled persons are not inhibited thereby from childbearing.

And a person expelled from Romagna might very well convert in Two Sicilies. Or Florence.

[Posted link to this reposting of debate, so NSch could see his bad arguments were being exposed.]