protein RDAs for vegans

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Sorry if the topic overlaps with some parts of previous threads but I couldn't find a specific one. Tried the forum search + google search.

I've written in some previous post about the debated official protein RDA of 0.83 g kg-1 d-1, which has remained unchanged for a while now, 15 years I reckon.

Now, aside from generic statements, I was missing something more specific and scientific upon the reccomended protein intake of vegans, those who only eat plant-based sources of protein.

I could find only a few references. The official RDA (original studies metanalysis from Rand et al., 2003) does not differentiate protein sources and the studies are usually based on mixed protein sources).

Davis-Melina, 2014, 'Becoming Vegan' book (excellent handbook by the way). They reccomend, based on limited literature, +10% on the official RDA, that is about 0.9 g kg-1 d-1. This because apparently the fibrous matrix allows less assimilation of protein than the matrix of animal based products.

Jack Norris website, with just a few references. From such references, Jack Norris suggests a value in the region of 1 to 1.1 g kg-1 d-1 for vegans

American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM), the American Dietetic Association (ADA), and Dietitians of Canada 2009 statement for vegetarian athletes is +10% than omivorous ahtletes: 1.3 to 1.9 kg-1 d-1, the upper values of the range related to strength sports.

I've already set my cronometer minimum threshold for protein to 1 g kg-1 d-1, but considering that I'm exercising with weights, I might need more, like 1.1. It makes sense that I'm in the upper percentiles of the statistical distribution, since to mantain my bodyweight I need at least 2400 kcal per day with a mass of 65 kg (not a big dude).

Now, that starts posing problems from the standpoint of adherence. My first choice is fruit & vegetables, so when I should switch to denser food I tend to loose appetite and can only eat modest amounts (the penalty for eating more being stomach burning, excessive bloating and fullness, physical and mental distress). I can adhere to 1 kg-1 d-1 but higher values would demand higher hunger levels.

I see this issue from two different perspectives:

Hunger is naturally adjusted based on the bodily needs, so my present level of hunger should reflect what I need and I should not try to adjust anything, just following the instinct

Hunger is stifled by high fiber and calorically sparse food, so that I cannot hope to gain muscle mass if I do not privilege caloric dense and protein rich vegan food.

I wonder if any of you guys came across the same problem (I know Todd has evaluated that but his diet is not vegan).

Should I eat proteic food first (legumes, tofu,) and vegetables after, making sure I meet the RDAs for vegans who exercise

Should I eat less fruit and vegetables so that the hunger is not so stifled but adopting very micronutrient rich fruit and vegetables

Should I add some vegan protein isolates to soymilk so that I reach soon my RDAs and forget about it?

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True enough, protein is ubiquitous in plant-based food, but that statement, as you say it, assumes that we eat lots of calories, since a calorie restricted diet may actually bring about protein deficiency. On the long run and of course if calories are really low. Also, amminoacids deficiency is another very serious potential issue.

Dr. Oren's speech also included about how they came up with that 0.8 g/kg number. They measured the actual amount with the nitrate-balance-method and then simply doubled it to have a safety-threshold.

That's not exactly like that. The nitrogen (not nitrate) balance method resulted in a zero-intercept (exact nitrogen balance) after conversion of nitrogen to protein of about 0.6 g kg-1 d-1 protein. So they didn't double it.

They increased it by about 0.2 units by very simple statistical methods (mean plus standard deviation *1.96) to include 97.5% of the population. This means that the official RDA is a cautious estimate (the safety threshold you cited) which , if adopted, will probably protect 97.5 of the population from possible protein deficiency.

Problem is that it's nearly impossible without analytical methods to ascertain which is the percentile of the population we belong to. We might estimate it by indirect methods, such as muscle mass conservation. Also, my premise in the OP was that I assume I belong to the high percentiles, since I'm apparently a poor food absorber.

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Basically it relies on optimizing (in my case lowering) the amount of fruit and vegetables, choosing those fruits&vegs which provide more micronutrients. For example, apples are great for the quercetin and the ursolic acid in the skin but not so much as far as the micronutrient content is concerned. Ditto for many other fruits.

As a whole, fruit does not seem to provide plentiful amounts of micronutrients like veggies, so in a way the fact that most people in this forum are not so nutritionally enthused about it is partly justified (although it does hydrate the body and provides ready energy for workouts).

A breakfast with half a red pepper plus one carrot will provide enough vitamin C and carotenes with minimal bulk, which leaves room to an abundant later meal of nuts and soymilk porridge.

At night more micronutrient dense veggies, not huge amounts, plus beans or tofu is going to provide easily the 1.1 g kg-1 d-1 amount and some, with RDA 100%+ total micronutrients .

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Today I have followed Sibiriak's suggestion, but only in part since I had no vegan proteins ready.

I just put in the blender soymilk, dark honey, undutched cocoa powder. I drank 780 ml of it (3/4 of a litre) and it provided 29 grams of protein. The taste is slightly beany, but otherwise short of delicious.

Of course, that's a very bulky smoothie which I used as a proper meal, together with nuts and a few prunes and dates. It was also rich in simple sugars, which many people view as the devil.

I'm undecided about vegan protein isolates. Sure they allow to decrease the bulk of such a meal and obtain more proteins. Another benefit is that it constiutes a digestible and hydrating meal. Sometimes I'm pushed to eat more than I'd like to reach the protein and micronutrients target, but then I regret it since I have a lazy stomach.

The vegan protein smoothie could be a very viable solution.

Also, vegan proteins are great in muesli or porridge and puddings as well, even in vegetable soups. The final result may be beneficial in that, by manipulating the macronutrients ratio, the bulk maybe drastically decreased, so decreasing potential gastric distress.

I know that that's not natural, in nature there are not very concentrated source of proteins, pea or soy proteins without their matrix may not be absorbed properly and so on.

At the end though, I believe that remains, in my case, a problem of balance between proper digestion and proper provision of nutrients.

Some vegan strength athletes like Kendrik Farris, Patrik Baboumian, are inherently hungry and are able to eat hundreds of grams of protein from mainly natural foods such as beans (although they sure use vegan proteins supplements).

I simply cannot eat many legumes or cereals without being gastrically distressed. Even by taking digestive enzymes.

I wonder if there are any others like me or the members of this forum have all powerful, super fast digestion and armored stomachs.

Edited November 12, 2017 by mccoy

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Hi Mccoy as Ive aged my digestion has become somewhat fussy. Have you heard of the fodmap diet? It took me some time to trace my particular issues to these olligosacharides. I can eat legumes but I must limit them to lentils, peas and garbanzos as these are somewhat milder than kidney, red and black beans. And no more than 1/2 cup per meal. Apples, mushrooms, mangos, figs, pears, are some other foods Ive had to go easy on or just give up. Whole grain wheat is also on the list, but oats, quinoi and brown rice are fine.

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HI Mike, thanks for the link, I think I just heard about the fodmaps but not in detail. I wonder if that concept applies just to IBS or to gastric digestion as well. I suffer from lazy gastric digestion, apparently the bowels are good to go.

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HI Mike, thanks for the link, I think I just heard about the fodmaps but not in detail. I wonder if that concept applies just to IBS or to gastric digestion as well. I suffer from lazy gastric digestion, apparently the bowels are good to go

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Dr Baker explains that zero carb works well for him. That's what I listened to then stopped, I can listen to podcasts while commuting or on the threadmill, but videos take too long to watch.

That his carnivorous diet is momentarily working all right I have no reasons to doubt, then there are to evaluate the long terms effects, which are likely to come (albeit not disclosed) on the long run.

There are a few people who insist on the zero carb diet, but it constitutes undisputably an extreme, a little like the pure fructarian diet. That these guys do not die off soon is a testament to the evolutionary adaptability of the human metabolic system.

If we are dealing with longevity/healthspan, one of the few unarguable long term proofs we have is the blue zones. None of these zones displays a zero carb or even a low carb diet to give evidence of its purported long-term benefits, nor they display the other extreme of pure fructarianism.

Edited November 17, 2017 by mccoy

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HI Mike, thanks for the link, I think I just heard about the fodmaps but not in detail. I wonder if that concept applies just to IBS or to gastric digestion as well. I suffer from lazy gastric digestion, apparently the bowels are good to go

Todd, while I agree that sweet flavours may elicit a dopamine response, I must say that I personally like the sweetness insofar it's moderate and paired with natural flavours of phytochemicals. For example, in the recipe I posted, cocoa, oats, buckwheat and the unrefined dark muscovado sugar all contribute to provide a strong, bitterish flavour. That's the most addicting thing in my case. Foods with lots of refined sugars taste revolting to me, making an addiction impossible. Also, the mere thought that a food contains refined sugar is enough to elicit an adverse reaction.

I also discovered that dark muscovado has lots of phytochemicals, that's one factor which apparently tends to prevent the unfavourable reactions usually associated with sugars: hyperglicaemia, fatty liver and so on.

Last, I'm surprised by how stoic you guys can be. I find very hard to renounce to natural sugars, especially now that I'm following a vegan regime. Last time I tried that, I lost bodyweight almost precipitously (unwanted outcome in my case).

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He says there is a community of people doing well on this type of diet. Maybe it's not as bad as we thought. Probably better than the standard American diet.

He's got a website and is trying to start a study of the diet.

Well, you're making me curious. The long term though is critical as far as an hyperproteic zero-carbs diet goes. No fiber. No phytochemicals. I doubt the long term is going to be favourable, although maybe better than a bad SAD. Chronic inflammation is a frequent outcome because of too much Neu5GC.

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I've been able to develop a satisfactory daily regimen of over 1.1 plant-based protein /kg/d, using only two tablespoons of vegan protein. Including soymilk and nuts, plus vegetables and a little cereals and legumes ensures this amount. The appetite must be pretty good though, I'm keeping it awake by exercise and CE. I'm going to post some cronometer excerpts.

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Mccoy: I've been able to develop a satisfactory daily regimen of over 1.1 plant-based protein /kg/d

I’m curious as to how you arrived at that 1.1g/kg (or higher) target.

Is that figured based on an estimate of your own personal nitrogen balance point?

Is it set above that point as part of an effort to increase muscle mass?

Do you still believe it is possible to consume excess protein required for maximal muscle growth while avoiding the anti-longevity effects of upregulated IGF-1, mTOR etc. in non-muscle tissues? I.e. do you believe it is feasible to selectively up-regulate mTOR in muscle tissue, avoiding up-regulating mTOR in the whole system?

Are you engaging in intermittent stimulation of IGF-1, mTOR etc. (periods of general growth and proliferation mode), conserving muscle gains with (reduced) resistance training alone during periods of down-regulated growth factors (periods of repair and maintenance mode)?

Why not aim for something nearer the .66-.8g pro-longevity protein target advocated by Longo and others? After all, you are still a spring chicken, not someone 65+years old who may require additional protein to avoid sarcopenia etc. This next decade may be your last chance to acquire the longevity benefits of protein restriction.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Sibiriak

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Hi McCoy, I’m sure you are aware having provided us an excellent summary of the Italian version, for point of discussion:

In his book ( listened to it on Audio on day of US release - defiinitey worth a read /listen ) Dr Longo translated this to around 3.1-3.6 mg per pound ( exactly 2.2x this for kg conversion; close to Sibiriak’s numbers).... and lower in the setting of cancer or if cancer-avoidance is a higher priority —- 0.1 to 0.15 grams of protein per pound of body weight alternating with a relatively high-protein diet (0.45 grams of protein per pound of body weight).

He suggested to help maintain lean muscle mass to have 30g protein in association with your major workout to maximally increase protein synthesis with no or very limited benefits beyond this level. Interestingly enough intermittent fasting in at least some work has been associated with preservation of lean muscle mass - better than isocaloric restricted calorie intervervention.

As you aptly pointed out previously protein requirements vary significantky by individual , but even so the range above appears to be more than adequate for the vast majority of non-geriatric healthy individuals without extreme lifestyles.

Having said that, on a final point, while I do not practice a formal CR regimen, for those who do ( we are at the CR forum after all), it should be recognized that Michael Rae had some excellent points in the past that with limited macronutrients & calories, practitioners of CR need to be especially confident that they obtain adequate levels of protein ( but no more than that as not to set off IGF-1!).