I think Draco's heart is the only non-lockerable subdungeon item. Probably because it's the only one that is simply a better version of another item. Actually, the same might be true of the sticky stick except it's worse than the wraps.

We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

Well, the "you can locker subdungeon items" policy is new as far as I'm concerned. I think I remember being explicitly told about the policy being "you can't locker subdungeon items" back during the martyr wraps disscusions a while ago (status of Sticky Stick in relation to the wraps was being thrown around and one of the dev's interrupted). Is and was certanly true for Draco's heart. Well thank you for clearing the situation up, guys.

Also the fact that the banker subdungeon spanwns anywhere in the east. For me it didn't by chance, I guess, and did 3 times in a row or something thereabouts while doing the Berserker Camp quest.

However, the state of things being inconsistent, with some subdungeon items being lockerable and some not, as it were, I still think I'm allowed to be puzzled as to why this particular one is lockerable. It made berserker camp really easy on the "I can fish for ideal kills without having to waste blackspace" grounds, and when I applied it (yes, it's apparently a Mas09 ledger) to Magma Mines, the effect seemed ludicrously powerfull.

My assesment of it's power as excessive comes from the fact that I could rather easily estimate how much blackspace it saved, and feel the ease with which I found the best available opponents at any point without the need to explore. The gold cost on use was negligable, and the only thing it seemed balanced by was the lack of picked up powerups and revealed shops that comes from not exploring enough. The fact the monsters can cover ledges ment I had to simply use it again untill nothing covered the troublesome tile, or it moved some popcorn over it.

Now, the power of this item when combined with blackspace-centric strategies is up there with the VICIOUS stuff, but it was also beneficial to a rogue. I can also see it being benficial to spellcasters for a big boost of a "between fights exporation healing". And seeing how Draco's Heart wasn't lockerable (on excessive power grounds?), and this was (even though it's potentially more powerfull AND easy to obtain), signalled that something was wrong.

I'm sorry for being unclear, and I actually find both of your guys involvement a great boon to my playtesting efforts, and if all this sounds excessively annoying - I have a terrible personallity, and I'm often sorry for being who I am. But I am in general a well intentioned and a driven person, and if I've been unclear, vague or dramatic about any other point I've made in this thread but someone was interested in what I ment enough (and doesn't want to wait for a concise and to the point writeup) I'll be happy to do my best to clarify.

I also whish someone would test that ledger, for real. I'm sure that the possibility of it being ludicrous is huge, but I really don't want to be the one going around asking for nerfs because I ran out of credit with the devs a long time ago. And especially as I'm unsure how much of the item's power comes from being handled by a megavet, if I may number myself among those.

Last edited by Lujo on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I personally think Draco's Heart and the stick should be changed effect wise and be made locker able. It's cool having a extra 15 or so items that can be lockered, but also found in game. On top of that, all of the lockerable ones are basically unique.

We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

The Avatar wrote:I personally think Draco's Heart and the stick should be changed effect wise and be made locker able. It's cool having a extra 15 or so items that can be lockered, but also found in game. On top of that, all of the lockerable ones are basically unique.

I think the power issues with draco's heart is that having it lockered and prepping it, and then finding a troll heart (not difficult it's a base set item) would mean +5 hp per level. As for the stick... Well, it's Martyr Wraps without the bonus, but also without the drawback if I'm not mistaken (EDIT: Also a small item, which is kind of a big deal). So I can kind of see where they were going with them not being lockerable. On the pure glee side, I also wouldn't mind them being lockerable, but on the sane side, not so much. I might be wrong though, the way it is now is certanly inconsistent, but someone would have to take it up with the devs (not me obviously).

My dream scenario always invlved some form of "trinker shop" and a kingdom screen where you could stick trinkets you find in subdungeons as a collection. The idea had so much problems, I don't think it'll happen even in an expansion, but it's mine personal "love the thought" small dream.

But on the other hand having the ledger be obtainable by talking to a non-combat guy in an easily found subdungeon, and having the dragonshield be a reward for almost completing the game is sort of nuts, as unless proved by testing, thay are about as powerfull.

EDIT:

Magma Mines Quest - has now been completed with Priest, Rogue, Monk, Warlord. Yes, I was lazy. I prepped the Mass09 ledger for the last 3. I almost had a problem with the Warlord run. As I was che... I mean, testing the ledger, I managed to kill the magic resistant boss with only 1/4 of the map revealed. This then ment I had no BURNDAYRAZ to kill the other one, so I had to buy Whurgarble, CYDSTEPP into the other guy to burn him, and set it off by killing something else. This is why I veto'd the spoon - I use stuff like Whurgarble very rarely, but when I do it's the only thing that can help.

Subdungeon balance is kind of ridiculous at the moment. Shifting Passages (all northern dungeons?) has one that gives you two mana potions and two health potions for free. Seriously?! Also, the glyph-converting golem is insanely powerful for the "dungeon of the day" challenge, since he'll give you big buffs in exchange for stuff that you wouldn't have used anyway on a hoarder/warmonger run.

The problem is it's really hard to test that sort of thing, since even if you scum for a particular subdungeon there are so many of them that you'll rarely see the one you're looking for. (It also makes lockering the items a pain.)

I think the power issues with draco's heart is that having it lockered and prepping it, and then finding a troll heart (not difficult it's a base set item) would mean +5 hp per level.

That seems about equitable to the Alchemist's Scroll, which is +8 per level but requires potion investment. I really don't see the issue with making Draco's Heart lockerable.

As for the stick... Well, it's Martyr Wraps without the bonus, but also without the drawback if I'm not mistaken (EDIT: Also a small item, which is kind of a big deal)

This, on the other hand, is probably too good to be lockerable.

Shifting Passages (all northern dungeons?) has one that gives you two mana potions and two health potions for free. Seriously?! Also, the glyph-converting golem is insanely powerful for the "dungeon of the day" challenge, since he'll give you big buffs in exchange for stuff that you wouldn't have used anyway on a hoarder/warmonger run.

Yes and yes. We'll definitely need to catalog and discuss subdungeons against at some point. Some of them need sprucing up, others are still a little over the top.

As for Wizard Inc being a little too good for Dungeon of the Day, I think that's just something we're going to have to live with.

I think the power issues with draco's heart is that having it lockered and prepping it, and then finding a troll heart (not difficult it's a base set item) would mean +5 hp per level.

That seems about equitable to the Alchemist's Scroll, which is +8 per level but requires potion investment. I really don't see the issue with making Draco's Heart lockerable.

Neither did I at first when I was pestering about it, but it turned out the devs had a different oppinion. You may also remember Dreamdancer wondering about why pick Martyr Wraps over the Trisword (apart from the sneaky way in which the Wraps operate). The difference between a potion+GOLD per hit item and one which has no such cost attached is the ammount of dedication and opportunity cost, except it's not always obvious to us vets. But it's probably the biggest argument in the Wraps over Trisword case, and it's also at work here.

And having a +5/hp per level combo available literally takes away the Rogue's health penalty, leaving you with more options for resource investment when playing rogues. Which is obviously awesome, as we all know, because they are underpowered and need items that help them in obvious ways but don't push everybody else in any direction.

Darvin wrote:

As for the stick... Well, it's Martyr Wraps without the bonus, but also without the drawback if I'm not mistaken (EDIT: Also a small item, which is kind of a big deal)

This, on the other hand, is probably too good to be lockerable.

Yep. However, Avatars idea of changing the effects to unify and create a category of 15 or so "prep only" items appeals to me. Not to mention that there's obviously a bunch of content that either snuck into the game or at least past any testing. Incoming subdungeon thread aside, we really need a "subdungeon ITEMS thread", like, right now, to see what's lockerable, what's not, what works and how powerfull what is. At least to pool info, and gather data for the wiki.

Darvin wrote:We'll definitely need to catalog and discuss subdungeons against at some point. Some of them need sprucing up, others are still a little over the top.

By all means, yes. The subdungeon situation is out of controll in all directions, too many notes in this thread ammount a "found a new subdungeon, like/not sure what to think/needs work/is preposterous".

Also, I really feel the need to say I'm really sorry because I've been royally messing up every reply to whatever Speedball posts. Man makes a good point, I come along and turn it into a heated argument, ramble off on a tangent, derail it, drown it in words, and generally make myself a huge annoyance... I also tend to do the same to Darvin at times. Feel bad about it, will do my best to keep it from happening.

Now, err, this playthrough I was having, if we can open up 2 threads, one for all the "prep only"/subdungeon items that have snuck into the game (inventory of such and discussion), and one for subdungeons in general, so I can stop derailing my own thread (on this particular issue) and get on with 40 or so runs I have to do before the midgame is over?

Enjoyed: Unlikely Heroes: Swamp Edition - With no stupid legder at all, and no Trisword due to Warlord challenges being rather difficult with the current bugs, if there indeed are any bugs and it's not just me being an idiot again. Funny highlights include the CYDSTEPP berserker kicking Bleaty's ass somehow, the TT DING! max unstoppable wizard and the amazing faithless gnome priest vs the tower of goo w no trisword or BYCEPPS. I went a bit overboard with preps though, and Viper Ward was pretty much mandatory (or seemed). I like the questline, I like the idea, but it might be really difficult for non vet players.

Noted - I used APHEELSICK, which I too often pass up. It's really good. Well, obviously it's good, it's a mana fueled hack that takes up an inventory slot, I just very rarely used it.

Like - Wizard. He's really a good class, but a prep/item pool/skill demanding class. He could probably still use some tweaking so players don't get frustrated with him early which can cause him to get lost in the shuffle. Which is a shame, as he's been great whenever I needed him (glyph scouting and having small glyphs not clog up your inventory is a big, big deal later on. So are cheaper fireballs.)

Noticed: Cha Dylan Subdungeon The Cha Dylan subdungeon seems to appear noticably more often than any other subdungeon. It's awesome the first time around, but gets tiresome after a while (the size of it, yet the relative lack of content in it opposed to the level from which you descend makes it a bit of a subconcious dissapointment. Psych at work there.)

Noticed: Saint Solitude Subdungeon Is another subdungeon where you can score a LEMISI glyph. The fact that it and Cha Dylan have overlapping spawn areas is a bit puzzling.

Whining: Fighter Gold I just sank 500 more gold into it and finaly had the chance but screwed it up by forgetting the Whoopaz as I do 100% of the time I prep it. Great. I even whittled the boss down to 1% resist, so the RBS was kind of pointles -.- And guess what got me through that run where I would've won if I didn't forget the Whoopaz? Thats right - GETINDARE. Even though I had both platemail and RBS and couldn't first strike anything.

Missclick Death no. 4 This time I didn't forget Whoopaz, but I forgot to kill my cat before I set down to play. It was a learning expirience, though, I will just go dispose of the interfearing mammal and reduce my deathrate by several percent.

Conclusion: Fighter Gold - After having disposed of my cat, I was finaly able to do it as a goblin fighter, a girl, with RBS and all the other things my fellow players have recommended, and heaps and heaps of GETINDARE dodge stacking. Yes, that is the 3rd gold challenge I do that way. It cost me 1000+ gold total, and before PQI that is kind of a lot. I also feel taunted by the fact that the completion toast speaks of a handsome cash prize while my treasury is obviously empty 100% because of this damned challenge. It's also still too hard for the average player I suppose. Going to go let the cat back in before I get accused of being cruel to animals, for want of being properly sarcastic.

Have you thought about putting a lot of the information and strategy you are gathering into the Wiki? Since you seem to be documenting a vast amount of items and where you got them it would be really good to have that all in there. Strategies utilizing these items could also be listed. Changes that effect strategy and such are coming in slower it might be a good time to think about putting in more permanent documentation again and these sheer volume of words you are producing could provide a good starting place. It occurs to me that having a thriving wiki of info and strategies will be a humungous boon when this game gets opened to the public more. I know when I played alpha the wiki helped keep me interested because I didn't feel like I was floundering.