I should go MM for our trash content this week, just to see how bad it is. That might actually be somewhat interesting.

yeahh... MM ain't good on small fast or AoE, really only decent at long fights without too much target switching. and also, if you haven't played MM in a while, you probably won't see its full potential.

You'll never know how good or bad Marksmanship is until you try it out yourself (in a proper raid). You can't really find a good data for Marksmanship to compare the DPS difference with other specs because a lot of people are not playing it.

Yeah all the good mages went arcane and made fire's line go down. It's selective bias, you can't use this data for determining the dps of mm right now. They'd probably need to buff mm a bit more so ppl will actually test it out

---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 07:50 AM ----------

Now accorrding to simcraft that it is now BM > SV > MM
Not sure what made the change.

Yeah all the good mages went arcane and made fire's line go down. It's selective bias, you can't use this data for determining the dps of mm right now. They'd probably need to buff mm a bit more so ppl will actually test it out

---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 07:50 AM ----------

Now accorrding to simcraft that it is now BM > SV > MM
Not sure what made the change.

This basically. MM wasn't buffed so much that the top players swapped from BM which is what happened with mages.

Raidbots and WOL are unreliable due to selection bias, sims are reasonably reliable but still isn't the top spec. More viable than druid and priest dps and those are certainly played.

The current simcraft is back to the original data. Exact same numbers as before. Maybe it was just a minor glitch that made BM and SV drop. But anywho, it's back to what it actually is. MM is the lowest. Who knows, blizz might make changes in 5.2 but I don't see BM > SV > MM changing until then.

---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 02:30 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Nangz

This basically. MM wasn't buffed so much that the top players swapped from BM which is what happened with mages.

Raidbots and WOL are unreliable due to selection bias, sims are reasonably reliable but still isn't the top spec. More viable than druid and priest dps and those are certainly played.

Each one of the specs below MM or even close to it, have a niche that they bring to the table. You can't even compare the utility a druid/spriest brings. They are far more valuable raid spots than an MM hunter lol. Healing, multi dotting, brez, even rets with bops, again multi dotting etc etc. MM brings nothing to the raid that BM/SV can't bring while doing better dps.

Read above post ^^ didn't got turned in to a minion, so couldn't use amber strike.

Well, it can also mean that the other hunter was also switching to constructs/blobs, while you were only attacking boss/monstrosity, who almost always has some stacks of Destabilize on them (increasing your damage, but not damage of people attacking other targets). Amber-Shaper is a terrible boss to compare DPS, such as any boss that gives damage buff only on some circumstance.

In-game, you just need to type /combatlog to start logging (or you can have an addon that starts logging automatically whenever you enter certain kind of instanced area (dungeon, raids, battlegrounds, arenas, etc.)

You may choose if you want to do live-logging (basically your logged data is immediatelly being uploaded to WoL server - you need to have the client opened, or just normal logging. I n that case you only open the client after the raid/whatever you logged is over, you choose time period you want to upload and voila, logs are uploaded.

The current simcraft is back to the original data. Exact same numbers as before. Maybe it was just a minor glitch that made BM and SV drop. But anywho, it's back to what it actually is. MM is the lowest. Who knows, blizz might make changes in 5.2 but I don't see BM > SV > MM changing until then.

---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 02:30 AM ----------

Each one of the specs below MM or even close to it, have a niche that they bring to the table. You can't even compare the utility a druid/spriest brings. They are far more valuable raid spots than an MM hunter lol. Healing, multi dotting, brez, even rets with bops, again multi dotting etc etc. MM brings nothing to the raid that BM/SV can't bring while doing better dps.

Quite simply untrue. Maybe druids and priests do, but don't tell me that ret pallies, ele shaman, or unholy dks bring so much utility that isn't close to anything marks can provide. Marks provide what all hunters provide, nearly any raid buff you choose.

rets and shamans can possibly off spec heal or tank as well. Plus those 'buffs' that hunters bring are irrelevant in a 25m raid. But it wasn't so much a comparison between them and hunters. It was MM vs those specs, since that is what you compared them to. 'MM dps is higher than so and so but so and so still are brought to raids, so MM could be as well' (Atleast that's what I got from it). It's irrelevant how many classes MM dps is higher than. If it's not the top single target or aoe spec, it's useless compared to the other hybrid classes that are lower on single target.

I have always played based on personal preference. I was BM long after the 3.1 massacre of that spec. I eventually went MM when ArP stacking became "The Thing" and enjoyed playing that and mentally convincing myself I was still BM through Cata.

Now, thank god, BM is comparable and I can go back to my Hunter roots.

Sadly, the mechanics of pets has been dumbed down to the point that they are almost as complex as the Battle pets are..

Originally Posted by melodramocracy

Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

Quite simply untrue. Maybe druids and priests do, but don't tell me that ret pallies, ele shaman, or unholy dks bring so much utility that isn't close to anything marks can provide. Marks provide what all hunters provide, nearly any raid buff you choose.

You picked pretty terrible examples. We use Sac/HoP from our ret on a fair number of encounters. Ele/enh shaman dropping healing rain is immensely helpful in heavy aoe damage, as are conductivity and stormlash. Any spec of DK brings gorefiends or remorseless winter - extremely helpful for 4/6 in MSV, 3/6 in HoF, 2/4 in Terrace. Druids bring tranq, symbiosis. Priests mass dispel, VE, grip. Warriors have banners and rallying. Warlocks have healthstones and portals.

Hunters bring literally nothing to the table outside of damage in a 25 man raid setting, aside from maybe MD. It's nearly impossible to miss a buff or debuff with a somewhat balanced raid comp. The only classes that can compare in this regard are mages, rogues and windwalker monks.

Hunters bring literally nothing to the table outside of damage in a 25 man raid setting, aside from maybe MD.

First, don't discount damage. Survival's AOE DPS is probably better than any other classes, and in a fight with lots of AOE your raid leader would be stupid to discount it. Second, it may be minor things, but we bring more than just MD in terms of usable raid mechanics. Hunters are able to cover literally every buff in the game instead of just a select few, so one hunter plugs ANY hole in your buffs or debuffs (for example I bring a wind serpent for 8% increased magic damage taken for our raid). Also, we have an AOE slow in the form of ice trap, multiple CC options from wyvern sting and freezing trap, an excellent and reusable soaking ability from deterrence, the aggro management combination of misdirect and feign death is a tank's wet dream, with proper pet management we can psuedo tank some adds, and as BM you can even bring crazy shit like battle resses to the table. Also, just because T14 raiding doesn't necessarily utilize all of these abilities doesn't mean you should completely discount them, since they'll likely be necessary again in T15.

Next time read fully before jumping the gun. He said a 25 man raid. Besides soaking on will with deterrence, all of those other things you mentioned are irrelevant. They will be available through other classes easily. And SV aoe is not the best in the game. It is great, it is in no way the best. Since I started playing in ICC, I haven't seen a single tier or fight that demanded hunters. Some 10 mans for sure, but never any fight as a 25m.

First, don't discount damage. Survival's AOE DPS is probably better than any other classes, and in a fight with lots of AOE your raid leader would be stupid to discount it. Second, it may be minor things, but we bring more than just MD in terms of usable raid mechanics. Hunters are able to cover literally every buff in the game instead of just a select few, so one hunter plugs ANY hole in your buffs or debuffs (for example I bring a wind serpent for 8% increased magic damage taken for our raid). Also, we have an AOE slow in the form of ice trap, multiple CC options from wyvern sting and freezing trap, an excellent and reusable soaking ability from deterrence, the aggro management combination of misdirect and feign death is a tank's wet dream, with proper pet management we can psuedo tank some adds, and as BM you can even bring crazy shit like battle resses to the table. Also, just because T14 raiding doesn't necessarily utilize all of these abilities doesn't mean you should completely discount them, since they'll likely be necessary again in T15.

So yeah, literally nothing I guess.

actually mages locks DPS DKs and all tank can easily out DPS survival hunters until you are talking 12+ adds.

Next time read fully before jumping the gun. He said a 25 man raid. Besides soaking on will with deterrence, all of those other things you mentioned are irrelevant. They will be available through other classes easily. And SV aoe is not the best in the game. It is great, it is in no way the best. Since I started playing in ICC, I haven't seen a single tier or fight that demanded hunters. Some 10 mans for sure, but never any fight as a 25m.

Originally Posted by Nemesis003

actually mages locks DPS DKs and all tank can easily out DPS survival hunters until you are talking 12+ adds.

Sruvival AoE is good but it not close to the best.

Yes as these have said, hunter AoE is in the top, not THE best but in the top, until you get ahead of the AoE cap, that is where suvival really shines and goes to extreme lenghts, so at about 12+ mobs is where survival is the bet AoEer and from that the gap just widens.

I've tried MM over the past two weeks, switched depending on need. And I haven't been lacking to badly in the dps, im probably 3-5k behind from BM still in 490 ilevel.
Only because keeping up the rotation of MM is quite a lot harder to do, even when you have a fight where you don't have to switch targets all to much. Also it feels like missing a CS by a few seconds results in a bigger dps loss, then missing a few sec on ES or KC, thanks to Piercing Shots.

On fights like feng ill probably dish out about... 80-85k dps depending on how well I do my opening rotation, and how I handle the Careful Aim phase, how much I get targeted my spark or arcane. But it's a lot more fun for me to have a spec that feels a little more challenging, while beating other people with better, or equal gear to you, with a worse spec / class.
I was reforging to as much haste as I could get, without going into crit, which gave me about 10-11% haste unbuffed, and with serpent pet or a rogue or something in your raid, aswell as having 4 piece t14, about 45% haste, which is kinda awesome. It's nice throwing out like 1.5sec aimed shot, if not faster.

Personally i'd like to see them give Chimera Shot an over all buff of 5-10% damage, or give the two piece set bonus for Chimera Shot a 5-10% damage increase, that or give SS a litte damage buff, seeing as it deals 20% less damage then cobra shot, while having the same base cast speed. Or making aimed shot do more damage, making it perhaps a little more viable using as a focus dump when not having BL or being in careful aim phase.

I've tried MM over the past two weeks, switched depending on need. And I haven't been lacking to badly in the dps, im probably 3-5k behind from BM still in 490 ilevel.
Only because keeping up the rotation of MM is quite a lot harder to do, even when you have a fight where you don't have to switch targets all to much. Also it feels like missing a CS by a few seconds results in a bigger dps loss, then missing a few sec on ES or KC, thanks to Piercing Shots.

On fights like feng ill probably dish out about... 80-85k dps depending on how well I do my opening rotation, and how I handle the Careful Aim phase, how much I get targeted my spark or arcane. But it's a lot more fun for me to have a spec that feels a little more challenging, while beating other people with better, or equal gear to you, with a worse spec / class.

Personally i'd like to see them give Chimera Shot an over all buff of 5-10% damage, or give the two piece set bonus for Chimera Shot a 5-10% damage increase, that or give SS a litte damage buff, seeing as it deals 20% less damage then cobra shot, while having the same base cast speed. Or making aimed shot do more damage, making it perhaps a little more viable using as a focus dump when not having BL or being in careful aim phase.

That signature... Epic win. If a spec were to pass BM i'd rather it be SV since it is the best on multi target fights.

That signature... Epic win. If a spec were to pass BM i'd rather it be SV since it is the best on multi target fights.

Perhaps, but I find SV kinda dull, i'd rather they buff BM aoe or something, since using barrage in mm isn't all to awesome since you miss out on a few auto hits.
Or just obviously buff hunters overall.