isaac_newton wrote:what does sort of suprise me has been the 'apparent' absence of people who likely to be strongly/vocally pro Charis - e.g all those saved from the camps or saved at the last minute from the COGA army breakthrus or saved by the food shipments.

Please. The nations have short memory. In 1944-1945 Soviet Army liberated millions of Polish and Czech peoples from Nazi camps - and how fast they started to grumble about "soviet occupation" afterward?

Yeah, darn those people who didn't like being occupied and made subservient in their own country. Not only that, you are forgetting many years of Russian oppression of the Polish people. Something I guarantee you that the Polish people didn't forget.

You sound like Americans who can't understand why most Native Americans weren't happy to be "assimilated".

What do folks think will happen in Schueler’s Cathedral immediately after Schueler disappears?

Schueler’s appearance has a lot in common with a surprise attack. So obviously, everyone will be stunned in the immediate aftermath. I can think of two possibilities once people shake out of the stunning.

Possibility 1: complete, disorganized panic. Some people running away, screaming at the to of their lungs about archangels. Others reading the book and getting ambushed by inquisitors while they read it because nobody’s thinking about protecting themselves. As a result, the news is disorganized and most of Schueler’s new messengers get rounded up as either insane and/or demon worshippers very quickly, the book gets seized, and the church is able to quash it, at least temporarily.

Possibility 2: somebody immediately rallies the congregation, creating an organized response. Maybe the priest, maybe the bishop, or maybe some army-of-god sergeant who learned how to deal with total shock after being on the receiving end of any of Charis’s secret weapons. Everyone in the congregation responds immediately to the first commanding voice it hears. What sort of organized response would create the most interesting story? Here’s my stab at it: the priest shakes off his shock, goes to the book, quiets the congregation, and orders the bishop to start reading the book out loud. While everyone is distracted by the book, and therefore not running around like headless chickens, somebody starts thinking through the implications of being drafted by Schueler as divine messengers. By the time the reading is done, a plan is hatched: keep it a secret for a short time while anybody in the congregation who can hold a quill or run a printing press makes copies. The Bishop is detailed to the task of informing Zion via semaphore when the weather clears enough to allow it. Any Guardsmen are detailed to recruiting more of their members to guard the Testimony and plan for a war with Zion the coming spring. Everyone in the congregation is charged with keeping everything the secret until, say, the following Wednesday, after which their job is to drag as many of their fellows as possible into the Cathedral as possible so the Bishop can announce what happened. A few volunteer or are volunteered to run for it and carry the message beyond the Temple Lands.

You can tell that I think the organized response is the more interesting.

The Appearing happens in the middle of winter, so travel is going to be incredibly difficult and dangerous. This means that the temple cannot send an army before spring. By that time, much of the episcopate of Schueler could have a chance to see the Testimony, come to believe it, and fortify.

At which point, the war is on.

Now what about the temple’s reaction? I think that everyone in the temple is going to be extremely reluctant to declare holy war, at least until they get their hands on a copy of the Testimonies. Since the whole thing is going to be full of the next best thing to Shan-wei worship, the Grand Vicar will have no choice but to judge it heresy of the foulest sort and take any measures necessary to combat it.

And what about Charis? How does the church of Charis react to outright heresy? The church of Charis is based on refuting corruption, but not on refuting fundamental church doctrine. The Testiment is going to be heresy even by the Church of Charis’s standards. I foresee Stainayr sparring for as much time as possible while Charis sends agents to confirm the existence of the Testiment. But when backed into a corner, which way will he lead the church? Will the church of Charis split into the Church of Charis Awaiting and the Church of Schueler returned?

What do folks think will happen in Schueler’s Cathedral immediately after Schueler disappears?

Schueler’s appearance has a lot in common with a surprise attack. So obviously, everyone will be stunned in the immediate aftermath. I can think of two possibilities once people shake out of the stunning.

Possibility 1: complete, disorganized panic. Some people running away, screaming at the to of their lungs about archangels. Others reading the book and getting ambushed by inquisitors while they read it because nobody’s thinking about protecting themselves. As a result, the news is disorganized and most of Schueler’s new messengers get rounded up as either insane and/or demon worshippers very quickly, the book gets seized, and the church is able to quash it, at least temporarily.

Possibility 2: somebody immediately rallies the congregation, creating an organized response. Maybe the priest, maybe the bishop, or maybe some army-of-god sergeant who learned how to deal with total shock after being on the receiving end of any of Charis’s secret weapons. Everyone in the congregation responds immediately to the first commanding voice it hears. What sort of organized response would create the most interesting story? Here’s my stab at it: the priest shakes off his shock, goes to the book, quiets the congregation, and orders the bishop to start reading the book out loud. While everyone is distracted by the book, and therefore not running around like headless chickens, somebody starts thinking through the implications of being drafted by Schueler as divine messengers. By the time the reading is done, a plan is hatched: keep it a secret for a short time while anybody in the congregation who can hold a quill or run a printing press makes copies. The Bishop is detailed to the task of informing Zion via semaphore when the weather clears enough to allow it. Any Guardsmen are detailed to recruiting more of their members to guard the Testimony and plan for a war with Zion the coming spring. Everyone in the congregation is charged with keeping everything the secret until, say, the following Wednesday, after which their job is to drag as many of their fellows as possible into the Cathedral as possible so the Bishop can announce what happened. A few volunteer or are volunteered to run for it and carry the message beyond the Temple Lands.

You can tell that I think the organized response is the more interesting.

The Appearing happens in the middle of winter, so travel is going to be incredibly difficult and dangerous. This means that the temple cannot send an army before spring. By that time, much of the episcopate of Schueler could have a chance to see the Testimony, come to believe it, and fortify.

At which point, the war is on.

Now what about the temple’s reaction? I think that everyone in the temple is going to be extremely reluctant to declare holy war, at least until they get their hands on a copy of the Testimonies. Since the whole thing is going to be full of the next best thing to Shan-wei worship, the Grand Vicar will have no choice but to judge it heresy of the foulest sort and take any measures necessary to combat it.

And what about Charis? How does the church of Charis react to outright heresy? The church of Charis is based on refuting corruption, but not on refuting fundamental church doctrine. The Testiment is going to be heresy even by the Church of Charis’s standards. I foresee Stainayr sparring for as much time as possible while Charis sends agents to confirm the existence of the Testiment. But when backed into a corner, which way will he lead the church? Will the church of Charis split into the Church of Charis Awaiting and the Church of Schueler returned?

FriarBob wrote:OK it's going back several pages now but I missed this mistake earlier.

Sorry PZ, but it is a mistake. That they are *probably* higher tech than what Harchong and/or (especially) Desnair can come up with is quite likely. That they are "top of the line" is simply unproven.

And while the automotives clearly had to be built somewhere, we have simply NO evidence one way or another for where they were built. Desnair was clearly buying some but intending to build the rest. Siddarmark said jack squat about it. Maybe they bought them. Maybe they built them. Maybe they built them in locally-owned manufactories. We simply have no evidence one way or another here.

There's also zero "proof" that the steel-mills were Charis-owned. The text is that the depression "will pretty much finish off" the Canal Consortium (for obvious reasons primarily dealing with money, not industry), but they don't know yet what will happen with the TSRR. In many ways that's (sorta) proof that they were NOT primarily Charisian industries. No doubt there were some of course, but not all. If they were, then obviously those industries would be seized, and the corruption and mismanagement to come would obviously sink the TSRR too. Now embezzlement and fraud will have "no limits" which means more iron rails instead of steel and people getting hurt or dying and all sorts of other bad stuff, but the TSRR is actually "not dead yet" in more or less a Monty Python sort of vibe.

And finally on the TSRR we have no proof the industries were actually built in the last 3-4 years. The TSRR itself was, duh. The industries no doubt had to be expanded for this. But built? Maybe, yet not proven. And remember that they were buying rail from local (and corrupt) suppliers. Despite the fact they needed a LOT of rail, the corrupt procurement process (combined with prejudice and stupidity) very likely actually means they did not build new Charisian-owned (or even semi-funded) steel mills for this. Which means that those top-of-the line turbines you envision probably were actually not there after all. Not, at least, in large numbers.

Then we have all the stuff about Mantorah, which was Charisian style industries. Not Charisian owned. And we also have that this happened because the Charisian Quarter was so devastated by the Sword. Which means it started 15 years ago, not 3 or 4. So the odds of that being fully up to date are also... remote, to say the least. Better than Desnair, very likely. Fully up to date, not likely. Not even slightly so.

The proof was in the Siddermarkian version of the Ahrmahk plan launched after the last election. The loan guarantees were made available about 5 years ago. Building whatever manufactories those guarantees secured did not happen for a year or so afterwards. That tells me the latest manufactories built using Charisian loan guaratees involved technology no older than 4 years.

We have text of Charisian selling their assets after Hygyns was elected and perhaps even just prior to the election when news of the Canal Consortium fraud broke. That argues for Charisian investments in at least some those manufactories supplying the TSRR. Certainly those manufactories would have used Charisian techniques and technology. Delthak industries would have participated in those investments and they would have used the most modern tech practicable. That means cutting edge to me. Not bleeding edge, just cutting edge production technology.

Does this include steel production? Well, I believe it does. I don't see Delthak Industries inveasting in Siddermark as part of the Nahrmahn Plan without including steel production. I doubt the Siddermarkian steel plants have all the automation, but they will have quite a bit of the power assist and pneumatic systems. Siddermark, Desnair and South Harchong need that steel production to build their navies. No way to build armor 6-10 inches thick without power assist to move those massive sections around.

Well, I just got done with the book, and I'm one who loved the timespan for sure. The concluding Honor book left a bad taste in my mouth, but this tome was on point. It had some eye rolls and skippable portions, but overall, it did an amazing job of pushing along the story. I felt the whole fall of Siddermark was too drawn out, but I see the overall set-up for the greater story. I think events are being set-up to have a WWII like event with Sotuh Harchong/Desnair and Siddemark against Empire of Charis and allies. This would place nearly the entire planet under Charis’s control or VERY strong influence and set the stage for a unified world government to utilize the 80 or so years. I've already discussed my thoughts on the doozer of an ending on another thread, but I think it does indeed set things up nicely to perhaps provide a way for Merlin and crew to get into the temple and maybe figure out a way to disarm the platform. If that happens, 80 years is more than sufficient time to get Federation level capability, even if limited to Challenge the whatever demons awaken...in fact, probably come at them with superior technology, and the irony of that would be sweet.

Ok, I'm curious. Those who believe the visitation is Project Androcles. What is next? What is the IC planning for the post Visitation Safehold? How does this manufactured opportunity fit in the overall plan to industrialize Safehold?

This a strategy designed to elicit a response from the nation's of Safehold. What are those responses? How is Charis to respond to them?

PeterZ wrote:Ok, I'm curious. Those who believe the visitation is Project Androcles. What is next? What is the IC planning for the post Visitation Safehold? How does this manufactured opportunity fit in the overall plan to industrialize Safehold?

This a strategy designed to elicit a response from the nation's of Safehold. What are those responses? How is Charis to respond to them?

Unfortunately, a HUGE portion of the answers you are asking about depends entirely on 'what is in the book' that 'Schueler' left us.

PeterZ wrote:Ok, I'm curious. Those who believe the visitation is Project Androcles. What is next? What is the IC planning for the post Visitation Safehold? How does this manufactured opportunity fit in the overall plan to industrialize Safehold?

This a strategy designed to elicit a response from the nation's of Safehold. What are those responses? How is Charis to respond to them?

Unfortunately, a HUGE portion of the answers you are asking about depends entirely on 'what is in the book' that 'Schueler' left us.

That's the point of the question. What might it contain and what might it attempt to accomplish moving forward?

The Book of Schueler describes the original plan for the Safehold Colony. It talks about the tech limits and a time for those limits to end. I suspect that the book also describes how electricity will also be allowed. And oh by the way, Pei Shan-wei just wanted to secure the knowledge for Safehold until the time limit was reached. Chihiro wanted to keep the information secret forever and destroyed Shan-wei for refusing to agree with him.

Might be nice if he gave a shout out to the SSK for keeping his good buddy Seijin Khody's legacy so well. I suspect Project Androcles would also make positive references to St. Zherneau without specifically naming it or giving its location. That way should it ever become necessary, the Brothers can reveal themselves without being immediately tarred and feathered.

Of course it just happens that the time limit has been reached. Then Archbiship Maikel and Bishop Paityr comments that they should refrain from aggressively using electricity out of deference for God. Any experimentation with electricity should be monitored by the Church. Or perhaps Maikel recommends not using electricity at all just in case this is another error made by the archangels. Then the IC establishes their colony in the Barren Lands and seriously builds up a massive tech base capable of taking out the OBS and whatever awakens under the Temple.

In the mean time, Charis continues to introduce tech to Safehold that other nations are forced to emulate. They help other nations adopt more liberal governments and pound the snot out of aggressive revanchists. Simply being revanchist is fine. The world can leave them behind.