David Ward, Israel and the Holocaust

Auschwitz and Gaza seem to be one and the same in the minds of some. Image: Getty

David Ward, a Liberal Democrat MP, is in trouble with his party bosses. He chose Holocaust Remembrance Day to indulge in a bit of anti-semitism, suggesting that the very Jews who suffered under the Nazis in death camps were now meting out the same treatment to the poor old Palestinians. I am not sure why he is in the doghouse: this sort of reflexive Jew-baiting lies just below the surface of most of the supposedly principled anti-Israeli posturing among his party colleagues. Not least those who feel the need to appease vast swathes of Muslim voters – Ward’s constituency is Bradford East. It’s good to get it out in the open now and again, so the rest of us can be sure we’ll never vote for them, had we ever been in any doubt.

So just why is David Ward an anti-semite because he used the expression ‘the Jews’ when describing the actions of Israel ?
Israel trumpets to the world that it is ‘the Jewish State’ and claims to be ‘the homeland of the Jews’ wherever they may live in the world.
Full Israeli citizenship is only open to Jewish people, so why is David Ward guilty of anti-semitism when he describes the actions of Israel as being the actions of ‘the Jews’ ?
The actions of say, France is routinely described by journalists and others as being the actions of ‘the French’ and the actions of the Russian government is routinely described as being the actions of ‘the Russians’ etc., so what is the problem with describing the actions of the (self proclaimed) Jewish state as being the actions of ‘the Jews’ ?

I have to say, I am somewhat surprised at you Rod championing Israel, I recall seeing a programme you made for Channel 4 a few years ago on Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians in which you were scathing of the Israelis, clearly questioning their claim to be ‘a democracy’.

I think that the fuss about David Ward’s comments being anti-semitic is a neat way of switching the emphasis from his points about the way Israel treats the Palestinians to (once again) presenting ‘the Jews’ as the perennial ‘victims’.
They are certainly not the victims in Palestine.

margaret benjamin

The community in Bradford would support ward this hatred of jews among arabs is not just confined to a few , whole countries also, an irrational hatred you may say,what do they all have in common! their belief in their Saviour/messiah figure will return to drive the jew into the sea, as psalm 83 tells you about those nations,the hatred goes further back than that.If you look at the nations listed they are the same ones who are attacking Israel today its were you find the invented Palestinians and others. David ward knew what he was saying because those who would agree with him can be found in Gaza and all over the middle east. An ancient grudge from Abraham Isaac and Jacob,to modern times.

Damocles

Can I please recommend ‘Jewish History, Jewish Religion’ by Israel Shahak. I think you need to get a little perspective into your tales of universal hatred against the Jews. Firstly I don’t think it is true and secondly some of the hatred clearly goes in the other direction (i.e. is aimed at Gentiles/ Goyim)
Perhaps it would be more positive to focus a bit more on the enormous kindness and concern shown to the Jews by so many Gentiles/ Goyim since learning the Holocaust narrative.

margaret benjamin

Don’t need your recommendations thanks, or history lesson neither am I narrow minded , nothing is aimed at gentiles you miss the point of what im saying its the land Issue,and ancient grudge against Israel that makes her so vulnerable does it not strike you as strange that she faces such hostilities and criticism from far and wide!

Damocles

and the fact that the creation of the state of Israel in May 1948 was an act of colonisation. Most of the members of the Jewish militias who did so were immigrants – they were not indigenous to Palestine.
Do you not think that that might have something to do with the condemnation Israel faces ?
That, and the relentless expansion of their borders that Israel engages in (via the settlers) ?

margaret benjamin

Their has always been a Jewish presence in Israel, also in the time of the Ottoman Turks The Balfour Declaration did not call for the land to be divided by the British Empire,that lost that empire because of this act that was why the sun will never set on its Empire again. their has never been a group of people called Palestinians ! they are Jordanians from Ammon Moab ect lots of Arab tribes. You do know Palestine was a name given by the Roman Occupation , when the temple was destroyed in 70ad by the romans, still you will never see or hear of a nation called Palestine.In forty eight Palestinian arabs who were born in Bethlehem held Jordanian passports,Judea & Samaria are the correct names were Jews have lived for thousands of years the settlers as you say for the land is not occupied but disputed territory, given by G-d himself.

Damocles

Around the time of the foundation of the political movement called Zionism (1897) the population of Palestine was approximately 3-4% Jewish and there was no history of conflict between them and the indigenous arabs going back hundreds and hundreds of years.
That all changed with the mass immigration of the zionists.
Do you know why there is a whole section on ‘Ancient Syria and Palestine’ including all sorts of artefacts and ancient relics in the British Museum but almost nothing (a few lines of text in the Levant room) on glorious Ancient Israel ?
Because the all conquering ancient Israel exists in the bible and almost nowhere else.
The latest archaeological evidence (and DNA evidence) suggests that the Ancient Israelites were actually a Caananite tribe that fled to the hills with the arrival of the Philistines on the coast.
In other words the ancient Israelites were actually descended from Caananites (Caananites=Palestinians)

margaret benjamin

I know different, You are anti Semitic, thought so!

Damocles

Palestinians are a semitic people
so aren’t people who constantly denigrate them guilty of ‘anti-semitism’ ?
Just a thought
(I’m not actually I’m English !)

margaret benjamin

You are a fool,Israel is full of archaeological finds,the very temple mount were the temple stood, As a matter of interest are you a Christian?

Damocles

sorry it took so long to reply but I had to take the ‘Fool’ costume off, it was chafing around the cuffs.
There may be many archaeological finds within the borders of modern day Israel but how many are ‘relics from ancient Israel’ ?
Yes, I am a Christian in so much as I believe that ultimately love is stronger than hate, hate is very destructive and corrosive, it saps the human soul (I’m shuddering just to think of it ! shudder, shudder) and I definitely believe that there is a spiritual dimension to people. I used to be fascinated as a child to hear the stories of how people gave up their lives rather than their faith, bless em !though I am not thinking of giving up my life just yet (I was brought up as a Roman Catholic). I think that (real) Christianity is a kind religion, it reaches out to everyone as a potential brother or sister (are you still awake ?)

margaret benjamin

The reason I asked if you were a Christian is, Yeshua ( Jesus ) was jewish and he has a lot to say about his brothers the Jews!

margaret benjamin

As a matter of interest to you, World bank transferred $32 million to the P/A from Britain Australia and Norway. Source AL- Hayat AL-Jaddida, Dec 19,2012. Headline: “$32 million from the World Bank”

margaret benjamin

You were brought up a catholic very religious , but remember the church was birthed in Jerusalem not Rome real Christianity is following Adoni the Lord not man and doing what he says in his word,do you know your gospels?

Damocles

I like the sentiments and principles that underpin real Christianity, precisely ‘where’ it was birthed is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

It is what it stands for that is really important.

To pay too much heed to such things is like watching a man perform good deeds and then focussing on the brand of his shirt as being somehow intrinsically linked to the quality of his actions.

Margaret, you mustn’t watch that sort of stuff.
You really mustn’t.
It will cause your mind to close in on itself and do a backward somersault (are you still with me ?)
It is a bogus website.
Watch RT, eat good food, do regular exercise and breathe in the morning, feel the sunlight on your face and swim a couple of lengths in the Municipal pool.
You won’t be sorry.

margaret benjamin

Don’t be condescending just how old do you think I am! RT the Russian Bear don’t think so neither does my head zip up at the back. for your information It is not a bogus website. Don’t know were you live but I live in the real world. Get real the world is a darker place and will continue to get so. Did anybody ever tell you that salvation in Christ Jesus is a reality that just believing in an historic figure wont save you ! put your trust in G-d not in man call on him while he is near, I would love to hear what you believe the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ Jesus will do for you today?

Damocles

I don’t know how old you are; you don’t look that old in your picture (why are you holding a glass ?) I was trying to make light of what you had said. The bottom line is that you portray the Palestinians as bloodthirsty ogres and I think that is just plain wrong. Are there any nasty Palestinians ? Of course there are. There are some nasty people among any group comprising millions of people. You need to face the fact that Jewish (Israeli) people (as a group) have been very nasty to them and that is why they are so angry at you. It was not fair to take their homeland away from them and the way that Israel treats them now is terrible, so there is no point in trying to make out that it all comes from them because it doesn’t. I think that situation is solvable but Israel is the key not the Palestinians. They have no real power, but things are changing. You need to come into the real world not me. The real world is what we all ‘collectively’ make it. To paraphrase one of the panellists in the IQ2 (IQ squared) debate, “If the Israelis drew up a plan offering peace based on the 1967 borders, the Palestinians would bite your hand off in their urgency to get at it” That is reality. We started our conversation because I replied to your comment that everyone hates Israel. Well, if people hate Israel it is essentially because of the way Israel behaves towards people who are not Jewish, in the region. I don’t want to waste my energy hating anyone but you do need to realise that Israel is on a road to nowhere. The Palestinians are not going to suddenly disappear are they ? How is life in Jerusalem ?

margaret benjamin

We agree to disagree Jerusalem were heaven and earth meet all I can say to you my friend is wait and see! the glass is orange I was having with a meal,I cannot call myself a student of bible,for I am 60yrs old but a student of prophecy. their lies the answer, you living in days of things coming to pass that were written thousands of years ago by the Hebrew prophets.all I say is Watch!! Shalom.

Damocles

Shalom to you too !

margaret benjamin

The philistines are not the Palestinians If you read the Old testament is full of accounts of Israel fighting the philistines they also were in Gaza! and an ugly looking bunch some giants among them,you know nothing of the history accept Zionists! well im a Zionist and proud of it.

margaret benjamin

Israel lived in the land of Canaan The Promised Land,Israel they were called Hebrews not Caananites .Never will you find a people called Palestinians the first is 1948/49 .

http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

Mr Ward, you sir are a pillock.

If you want to criticise Israeli policy or Bibi then do so explicitly. But you’d have to have the political instincts of a blancmange to use the term “the jews” and think that is acceptable.

You have been rightly taken to task. Your party leader should issue an ultimatum – apologise or step down.

gs07aaa

Spot on, Rod

lotte678

“To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.”

Voltaire.

Matt Pryor

Couldn’t agree more Rod.

SirMontyThreepwood

Is it not allowed to mention B’Tselem? Two posts have been deleted which referred to the Israeli human rights organisation which meticulously documents the deaths of Palestinians and Jews in the Occupied Territories and Gaza. B’Tselem shows that 6500 Arabs have been killed by the IDF in Gaza and the West Bank since 2001, with at least 3000 of them taking no part in hostilities. Over 1300 of the dead were minors. The number dead Jews, though every lost life is a crime is tiny by comparison, and the number killed by rocket fire is less than thirty in the same period.

Look up the data from the Jewish human rights organisation in Israel. Google:

B’Tselem + palestinian deaths

Noa

Probably the moderating software screened it out because it didn’t recognise the foreign word and thought you were being vulgar and obscene, which to some of the posters around this blog, you probably are.

SM

Loving the fact that your avatar is Lord Salmon. He’d be so proud of you – not.

SirMontyThreepwood

Indeed sir, you are quite wrong. My avatar is in fact a cartoon drawing of Lord Denning.

SM

Quite right. My mistake.

Same point, mind.

MikeF

What a shower the LibDems are. Whatever happened to the party of Joe Grimond?

Daniel Maris

It was Jo, not Joe. Perhaps there’s a clue there, given the history of Lib leadership (one user and abuser of male prostitutes, one incapable drunk, more than one philanderer and user of female prostitutes).

Simeon Howell

Well done Rod ….. I’m glad a lefty like you can see through the fog

SirMontyThreepwood

Are all posts being moderated, or only some? Two perfectly civil posts of mine have been screened out. What is going on?

SirMontyThreepwood

Oh that’s a low blow Liddle.

It isn’t Jew bating to complain about the savage way Israel treats Palestinians as if they were the native Americans penned up in Indian Reservations with no freedom and no ability to communicate or trade freely outside the wire, except with the consent of their oppressors. Jews all over the world are as entitled to live in peace as any other people. Israelis likewise, but the horrors of the 1930s and 1940s entitle no one to ethnically cleanse areas and to pen up the inhabitants in prison camps like Gaza. I have no time for religion, least of all Islam which somehow is more troubled with extremists than most, but Palestinians are people, and people must be treated with justice and decency. Israel under Netanyahu and Lieberman do neither. On the contrary, they defy international conventions and take more land, strengthening the hand of radicals on the other side and then pointing out that they are dangerous. They created the monster they now point at in mock surprise and horror. Every slight to their Greater Israel ambition, they define as a new Holocaust.

As a youth I was an ardent supporter of Israel, until I realised what they were doing at the time of the 1980s war against Lebanon.

Whilst enjoying an evening stroll through some London borough the other day I was approached by a group of badly dressed white middle class men carrying copies of The Guardian. They were all wearing sandals. Their leader spoke to me: ‘What you doin here, innit?’ ‘This is a LibDem area innit.’ ‘You got no bizness bein in a LibDem area innit’.

Daniel Maris

Did you reply: “You can’t tell me what to do – this is Great Britain.”

And did they respond: “Great Britain? Nah, mate – this is Euro Region North West One”.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=700430683 Tony Webb

European Jews (The vast majority of Israeli Jews) Aren’t Semitic Jews, they’re Khazari political converts to Judaism in the dark ages. So to suggest he was being anti Semitic, is palpably false. Anti Zionist yes, and fair play to that, but not anti Semitic.

Anti Semitism is used as a political term to keep folk quiet, it’s not a factual statement, it’s a political one, and designed by Zionists to hijack Judaism for their own political ends.

Why have we forgotten that 800 British service personnel were brutally murdered by Zionist terrorists in a viscous campaign by an immigrant nation on a settled population?

Israel is nobodies friend.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Ant-Aloy/100002909138753 Ant Aloy

Some key UN Security Council Resolutions on Palestine

252
(21 May 1968)
Urgently calls upon Government of Israel
to rescind measures that change the legal status of Jerusalem, including the
expropriation of land and properties thereon.

262
(31 December 1968)
Calls upon Government of Israel to pay
compensation to Lebanon for the destruction of airliners at Beirut
International Airport.

573
(4 October 1985)
Condemns
the Government of Israeli with respect to the attack in Tunisia. Call on Israel
to pay compensation for human and material losses from its attack and to
refrain from all such attacks or threats of attacks against other nations.

592
(8 December 1986)
Demands Israel comply with the Fourth
Geneva Conventions in all Occupied Palestinian Territories including East
Jerusalem.

605
(22 December 1987)
Calls upon the Government of Israel, the
Occupying Power, to comply by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

607
(5 January 1988)
Expects Israel to comply with the Fourth
Geneva Convention as well as cease its practice of deportations from the
Occupied Palestinian Territories.

608
(14 January 1988), 636 (6 July 1989), 641 (30 August 1989)
Expects that Israel cease the
deportations of Palestinian people from the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

672
(12 October 1990)
Expects Israel to comply by the
provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Palestinian
Territories.

673
(24 October 1990)
Demands that the Israel come into compliance with UN Resolution 672.

681
(20 December 1990)
Expects
Israel to comply with the Fourth Geneva Convention with respect to the Occupied
Palestinian Territories including East Jerusalem.

694
(24 May 1991)
Expects that Israel stop Palestinian
civilian deportation from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and ensure the
safe and immediate return of deportees.

726
(6 January 1992)
Expects Israel to comply with the
provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention and to cease its deportation
practice from Occupied Palestinian Territories.

799
(18 December 1992)
Reaffirms
Fourth Geneva Convention to all Palestinian Territories occupied by Israel
since 1967, including Jerusalem. Also affirms that deportation of civilians
constitutes a contravention of its obligations under the Convention.

904
(18 March 1994)
Israel is called upon, as the occupying
power, to take and implement measures, inter alia, confiscation of arms, with
the aim of preventing illegal acts of violence by settlers.

1073
(28 September 1996)
Calls on the safety and security of Palestinian civilians to be ensured.

1322
(7 October 2000)
Calls upon Israel to comply with the
Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of the occupying power
in the Palestinian Territories.

1402
(30 March 2002)
Calls for Israel to withdraw from Palestinian cities.

1403
(4 April 2002)
Demands that the Government of Israel go through with the implementation of UNSC
Resolution 1402.

1435
(24 September 2002)
Calls on Israel to withdraw to positions
of September 2000 and end its military activities in and around Ramallah,
including the destruction of security and civilian infrastructure.

zakisbak

“Some key UN Security Council Resolutions on Palestine” -
It is incredibly biased isn’t it?
It does occasionally call for the Arabs to cease hostilities and recognize Israel.

The UNHRC has adopted more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined.Quite remarkable.
Let’s have a look at it’s members eh?
Cuba,China,Kuwait,Qatar,Saudi Arabia,Uganda,Libya,Congo,Angola.
Enough said,I’m sure,except for the very,very dense among us.

SirMontyThreepwood

You only mentioned a few of the states that are allowed to vote. Why was that? Ah, of course, that way you could make it seem unfair. How dishonest you are.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

I’m not going to waste too many words on a moron like you. A moral person would have felt it suspect that even the few names, and there are more of that ilk, should be on any HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL considering their policies.

You’ve now shown clearly, even to the ignorant, who you are in this debate.

http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

and that’s justification for ignoring the human rights council of the UN?

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

When you know you are being censored unfairly by ANY group or organisation, and you understand their corrupt motives for doing so, you think you should be bound by it?

SirMontyThreepwood

Ah – yes. If some countries defy UN resolutions they are to be invaded, for others, it doesn’t matter, they are friends of US Christian fundamentalists. There is no justice in this matter. If there were, Israel would be behind secure pre-1967 borders, Hamas would never have been elected and Palestinian civilians would not be living in the prison camp of Gaza and the people of the West Bank would not be seeing their land divided up by more and more settlements. In 1945, Jews were a little over thirty percent of the people in the then Palestinian Mandate. Now, every alien from whatever part of the planet can be drafted in if he can however tenuously claim Jewish decent on his maternal side. More and more extremists from Russia populate a land they have no connection with and indigenous Arabs are pushed into reservations like the Native Americans were by volatile settlers and extremist religious Jewish sects. What a mess.

William Reid Boyd

He’s got that funny smile pedos have. Doesn’t fool me.

Noa

Who has?

SirMontyThreepwood

You are an unworthy fellow. Only a fool and a buffoon would make such a remark.

biggestaspidistra

She was also of the Liberal Party, Baroness something or other of Richmond, who wanted to be a suicide bomber so that she could blow up Israeli citizens. What is wrong with these people who hide their fascism behind a benign Any Questions liberalism.

Why do people feel sorry for the Palestinians because they see them as a people who have had their land stolen then thrown into refugee camps. Utter nonsense! most people who say that know nothing except the lies they are fed by the press and media as Palestinians have a way of using the press to put Israel in a bad light.David ward is in an area that is mainly Islamic so that shows what a Moron he is hope they boot him out.for anyone who feels the need to accuse Israel over the land issue first go and take a history lesson you will find the Jordanians/Palestinians are one and the same. Before the forties their never was a race of people called Palestinians that’s why they have no homeland of their own.Ancient Moab Ammon Edom ect is were they originated from.they lived under the rule of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of yrs.Trace them to Jordan remember Black September! If people knew the truth they would see how Britain had a lot to do with dividing up the land of Palestine the name given to it by the Romans. don’t be fooled into thinking Palestine / Palestinians its not connected but it sounds better to them than Jordanian.Israel comes under attack to often from Britain also who were given a mandate from the league of nations to look after and establish a homeland for the Jews but starting giving parts of it away to the Arabs so you could say Britain is part of the problem so to criticise Israel is a none starter.

Daniel Maris

“a race of people” – Are you a racist? Do you view people as members of “races”?

How come if the “Palestinians” were not a “race of people” – the Israelis are…at least I presume you think they are… They didn’t live in the area, they had never been a united people before…given you raise the bar so high, what makes Israelis ” a race of people”?

Your claims about the mandate are completely false. The mandate was (in part) to create a homeland for the Jews. Please consult a dictionary. “Homeland” does not equal “self governing state”. In case you haven’t noticed, Tibetans have a homeland in Tibet – they don’t have a self governing state. When the mandate was finally terminated the UN decided to create two states in the territory of Palestine: one Jewish and one Arab.

margaret benjamin

The UN in dealing with Israel are biased So anything that she does is wrong.A race is not the best term,am I racist Certainly not! without going over all the history the land belongs to the Jews because the UN decide to create something You think its set in stone! I for one do not need a history lesson from you, your tone speaks volumes.If you believe in G-d then you would know were I was coming from I see the UN as a tower of Babel so you know what happened to Nimrod ! So for you that’s Genesis chapter eleven.

http://www.facebook.com/mark.forrester.1654 Mark Forrester

I believe it was cancelled in favour of the American AWACS system?

edlancey

hmm Bradford East – who says MP’s don’t represent the views of their electorates…

clever trevor

Any comments from Rod or Eddie on the vile David Irving and his travel trips mentioned in the Sunday Times today?

Joao

Most of the population of Israel is not related to any Jewish people who perished in, or were subject to, the Holocaust. The two biggest groups are Russian and Morrocans, neither of whom suffered in this way. Ignorance is the basis of racism.

Daniel Maris

This subject is replete with many ironies – one of them being that it is the Zionist movement – the founders of Israel – who argued Jews were a race and a nation.

Another is that Holocaust Memorial Day, which was meant to honour the dead and provide a warning from history to the present, has – as I have always felt it would –

proved to be a political arena for the settling of scores – Armenians and Kurds trying to trash the Turks, Palestinians trying to trash the Israelis, Tutsis against Hutus, Tibetans trying to trash the Han Chinese oppressor etc etc . It actually dishonours the dead, because it is a wholly artificial construction foisted on this country without debate.

The fact is we were in little danger of forgetting the Holocaust and people remembered it in a natural way (whilst accepting that only a few hundred of our own citizens died in the mass murder).

It was always a mistake to try and single out the Holocaust. It had some unique features, notable the industrialisation of the mass murder process. But it was not uniquely evil – as subsequent events in Tibet, Indonesia, Chile, Bangladesh, East Timor, the Congo, Algeria, Cambodia and Rwanda – to name a few – were to prove. .

zakisbak

“Nor are the Jewish people a “race” ” -
They are,by maternal descent.

http://twitter.com/RadfordRoger roger radford

Following Gerald Scarfe’s despicable cartoon in The Times today, I’m
reluctantly giving up one source of my Liddle fixes. I’m switching to
the Telegraph – unless Rod is given the right to respond by the ST.

Numpty

Hear Hear! The cartoon was beyond the pale on Holocaust Memorial Day of all days. Add to that their extensive magazine article on David Irving and you have to wonder what perverted moral compass the editors have shared to think that either was suitable or appropriate as a commemoration. After 40 years I too am switching to the Telegraph.

Matt Pryor

Yeah I cancelled my Times sub yesterday. I’ll miss Rod’s issues.

Augustus

Anti-Semitism is ‘irrational hatred’ of Jews; Arab terrorism is supposed to have a ’cause’ for which the Israeli Jews are supposed to share culpability. Some among them even believe that if Israel would only give in to all Palestinian demands the violence against Jews in the world would cease. Anti-Semitism is not something that was eradicated together with the Jews in the ovens of Auschwitz. Rather it was put to rest, only to emerge in multiple forms years later, as overt and covert anti-Semitism. And there is plenty of the latter. When people protest that it’s not the Jews they hate, they simply want to condemn Israeli policies against the Palestinians; this is covert Anti-Semitism. When Israel is singled out for condemnation, while wholesale slaughter and human rights abuses abound in other countries; this is anti-Semitism. So many decades ago six million Jews did not have the protection of a strong and determined Jewish state. They thought they had the protection of the Allies who flew over Auschwitz in 1944, yet did nothing.
‘Never again’ will always be Israel’s overriding policy, while always acknowledging the fact that the past is never ever that far behind.

http://www.facebook.com/cliveandrews Clive Andrews

“When people protest that it’s not the Jews they hate, they simply want to condemn Israeli policies against the Palestinians; this is covert Anti-Semitism.”

Why do you believe this to be the case? Why is is not legitimate to object to the military actions of a state?

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

It is perfectly legitimate to object to the actions of any state, or in the case of the Palestinians – a non state.
Anti-Semitism arises when it is not done fairly by those who are willing to demonize Israel to appease Muslims.

http://www.facebook.com/cliveandrews Clive Andrews

What a sad situation where we feel compelled to make such grave assumptions about the motives of those who hold sincere views different to our own.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

There are many other reasons to be an anti-Semite. In your case for example it could be poor self esteem that makes you resent the contributions that so few Jews have made in the world – or jealousy for short.
Or there again it could be pure ignorance. You take the spin that the BBC likes to give and don’t think for yourself about certain basic facts which would show how distorted it is.

If you’d like to expound more on what you think I’m fairly confident I can deduce your particular motive.

http://www.facebook.com/cliveandrews Clive Andrews

There we go. Enormous assumptions, when I have said nothing of my personal views. All I have done is question an assumption and I’ve been met with another. Do you really believe I am anti-Semite, deserving of the words you type above? I’m not here for abuse – just a genuine desire how understand why people’s objections to the actions of a state are translated automatically into

Sarah

“I’m not here for abuse”

Then I’m sorry to say you’ve come to the wrong blog, my friend. It’s the only reason anyone is here.

How it goes is this: Rod Liddle states an opinion. It doesn’t have to be his real opinion, just an opinion. His disciples wait for his cue and then parrot it. One or two people, just for fun, will say something different to play devil’s advocate, his disciples will pretend to be angry. Everyone insults each other for a few days. Rod Liddle adds another few hundred quid to his Italy holiday fund where he can listen to Stiff Little Fingers and concentrate on being a poor northerner living in Sussex working for the Barclays Brothers. The Guardian gets a short column out of it. Everyone’s happy.

Noa

Amusing and inciteful!
But you have omitted the anticipated quotient of misandrous abuse. Is there a reason?

Sarah

And of course it gives Eddie some social contact, which is important for his rehabilitation.

Noa

I think you two would get on so well if you met. Just like a house on fire, as my mum, God bless her, used to say!

Eddie

How it goes is this: Rod Liddle states an opinion. It doesn’t matter what it’s about – it can be gender relations, race, politics, weather, turnips, tadpoles, whatever…
Then along comes a confused and unhappy person called Sarah who always seems to see sexism and patriarchal oppression and pity party grass-is-greener victimhood femi-moaning in every single topic, andaccuses any man who correctly identifies her mad misandry and twisted thinking as being a misogynist, rapist paedo.
Neither I nor others here (not including Sarah Psycho) agree with everything Rod says as can be seen from a quick scan of previous posts, and we often argue forcefully between ourselves.
Your sad Sarah view that you are the only holy and pure person here, and everyone else is the same and ‘disciples’ of Rod, is pure delusion and fantasy. After all, what would you be if you couldn’t pretend that the world is a nasty male place designed to hate and oppress you? It’s your sole excuse for your total failure as a human being, so of course it’s very precious to you – like a femi-teddy comfort blanket with which you clothe you intellectual and moral nakedness.
You might not have realised it Sarah, sweetie, but you are the joke on this forum – the clown everyone laughs at, like a drunk in a bar who’s wet himself.
Italian holidays? Well, I try and take them every year, and certainly do not pay a penny to Rod to take his (I don’t actually think Rod gets any bonus or commission the more posters – incl loonie feminutsies – contribute to his blog, but I may be wrong…)

zakisbak

a genuine desire to understand why people’s objections to the actions of
a state are translated automatically into perceptions of racism. -
Because,with Israel,it is massively disproportionate.
There are territorial disputes,militia v state conflicts,outrages etc etc all over the world.
Israel seems to be under a permanent microscope.

Also,atrocities perpetuated by the Arabs appear to go unmentioned.

If race is not the reason,what is?

http://www.facebook.com/cliveandrews Clive Andrews

Thank you zakisbak for actually listening to my question and answering with an apparently open mind.

Yes – I accept your point about the possibility of disproportionality. It’s always been the case that some conflicts and causes around the world make it to the crowded front pages, while others are virtually ignored. That is sadly true. However:

- Though criticism of the Israeli government may indeed receive greater-than-proportionate coverage compared to other world issues, does this necessarily mean this criticism may not still be valid, to some extent or another?

- Disproportionate coverage may be due to all kinds of media-driven priorities, relating to politics and advertising revenue in news media. The media know that we – the broad public – want to know about this situation, so they supply news and comment (including this very blog post) to meet this demand. It seems too simplistic to assume this is simply a product of racism, no?

Forest Fan

Too right. Clive …two sides to a coin mate. The dispossession of the Palestinians was and remains a shared responsibility. The Palestinians are in their present condition because the Arab
governments have chosen to keep them there as a pretext for continuing
to attack Israel.

Daniel Maris

I agree with your point about disproportionality of reaction. People get so upset about Israelis (allegedly) oppressing Palestinian Arabs but couldn’t give a damn about Russians oppressing Chechens, Chinese oppressing Tibetans, Moroccans oppressing West Saharans etc etc.

I think you have to query their priorities and the fact that only a few thousands Palestinian Arabs have ever been killed by the oppressing Israelis, as opposed to hundreds of thousands in Tibet.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

You state that you think I’ve made assumptions about you with no apparent substance. So let’s see what I have to go on.

You post a comment on a thread concerning an MP that has voiced certain anti-Israel accusations, likening it to a Holocaust perpetrated against the Palestinians, at a time of particular significance to Jews being Holocaust Remembrance Day.

If you understood how vile a comparison it is to make, especially by a representative of the British government, would you then ask with words to the effect about why are Jews are so sensitive that the actions of the Israeli government can’t be criticised without the critic being labelled an anti-Semite?

It is akin to somebody asking Jacqueline Kennedy on the day of her husband’s assassination; ‘apart from that Mrs. Kennedy, how was the ride?’, and then complaining that she gave them a dirty look to a valid question.

If you really can’t understand it then get somebody to explain it to you. Making yourself a victim, when you are either obtuse or stirring things up is either for the purpose of deflecting proper criticism or adding further insult to injury.

You asked a question to which you got an explanation from two of us – in the context of THIS THREAD. You then feigned ‘shock horror’ by those answers – and you still want to be taken seriously.

You’re not – and if you cannot understand why the judgement – which you call assumption, stands the way it does – too bad. Ask somebody intelligent to explain it to you.

http://www.facebook.com/cliveandrews Clive Andrews

The thing is, Teddy, I share your view that Ward’s comparison was vile. I just wanted to know more about an aspect of the point of view expressed by Augustus – something I’ve never understood when I’ve heard others say it. Yes, you did respond to me, but straightaway suggested I was an anti-Semite. Forgive me for not being grateful.

Intelligent discussion needn’t be as simple as yes/no, with/against, black/white. As a newcomer to this forum I assumed (naively, perhaps) this would be understood.

The response given to me by zakisbak shows it’s possible to hold a firm point of view – and to argue it reasonably – without hysteria and ad hominem. For this, I’m grateful to zakisbak.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

You still making yourself the victim?

Let we correct your statement above:

Yes, you did respond to me, but straightaway suggested I was an anti-Semite

The question you asked was first assumed to be genuine and you got a fair answer. To which YOU then replied:

What a sad situation where we feel compelled to make such grave assumptions about the motives of those who hold sincere views different to our own.

How can it be sincere to demonize and vilify ONLY ONE SIDE in this conflict, especially the side that has done far more to achieve peace than the other – who has done NOTHING except promote further violence?

Are you really this stupid, or do you have to work at it? Seems to me you have adopted the very position that you think Israel is guilty of. The only difference is in your case it would be true.

Methinks thou protesteth too much.

http://www.facebook.com/cliveandrews Clive Andrews

Incredible.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

In your case it would be, but I attribute it more to ignorance.

In case it slipped your attention you have failed to address the points made to justify the response you ultimately got. You prefer instead to play the victim card. Seems as if you display the very traits you think Israel is guilty of. Given your mentality, your reaction now is hardly surprising.

Augustus

” Why is is not legitimate to object to the military actions of a state?”

All I can say is that the primary responsibility of government is to protect its citizens everything else is secondary. As for ‘covert anti-Semitism’, it’s a small step from, for example, a national soccer team turning their backs during the playing of Israel’s national anthem to hurling remarks such as “Go back to Auschwitz and Buchenwald!” One easily begets the other where jews are concerned.

David Lindsay

Is the Conservative Whip going to be withdrawn from the hundreds of MPs who are in fact members of a party which has moved from coalition to impending merger with Avigdor Lieberman’s gutter mob, and which is moving to coalition, doubtless leading to merger, with Naftali Bennett’s sewer mob? Exactly how many people would that leave in receipt of the Conservative Whip?

David Ward’s main mistake has been the common one of assuming that the present State of Israel has much connection at all to the Holocaust. Not only is the population within the pre-1967 borders 20 per cent Arab and growing, but the majority of the rest is of Middle Eastern rather than European origin: dark-skinned, linguistically and culturally Arabic, and with little or (overwhelmingly) no connection to the victims of Hitler.

How come, then, that the place is run by Avigdor Lieberman, who was born in what is now Moldova, who did not move to Israel until he was 20, and who continues to sport a Slavic surname; by a white man called Bennett; and by Benjamin Mileikowsky, who affects to be called Netanyahu, a name inscribed in Ancient Hebrew on a 2800-year-old signet ring which he displays in his office? Why does this overwhelmingly brown country in the Levant have an apparently irremovable white ruling class which is basically and ultimately European or European-American?

Why, indeed?

Curnonsky

After all, Britain is becoming a “brown” country with an apparently irremovable white ruling class, so why the fuss about Israel?

yair lapid most significant aspect of the election. he ran on domestic issues.

Hexhamgeezer

The issue is whether one can equate the Holocaust with a pretend and much faked ‘persecution’ of the ‘Palestinians’. your prolix evasiveness on other matters is just Grade A tedium. This is just skin crawling.

Daniel Maris

I agree. I think in total about 16,000 Palestinians have been killed in a conflict that has stretched over at least 7 decades (in reality more like 9). Probably far more Israeli Jews have been killed during that time.

zakisbak

“Why, indeed?” -
Because most Jews are white?
Although Israel is multiracial,multi-cultural,multi-religious,unlike it’s Arab and Muslim neighbours.

Why do overwhelmingly white western liberals repeatedly ignore the crimes of the Middle east non democracies and focus obsessively on the region’s one tolerant democracy?

Why,indeed?

Baron

They, the non-democracies, have something we need – oil. It’s that, and the fear that if one stands up to them one may get fatwaed.

Forest Fan

Makes you wonder what will happen when the oil runs out? Bet we don’t end up with Tibet, Chagos islands and American Native Indians replacing Israel in regards to news headlines.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

I agree 100% with your post Rod. As soon as I saw Ward was the MP for Bradford East all became clear.

All this publicity has for him just made sure his public will know that he stands with them.

What ‘lesson’ should Jews learn from the Holocaust, or preceding pogroms for that matter?
Simply not to trust nations who have a vested interest in demonizing Jews to achieve some other agenda. I think most Jews learned that lesson, which is why Israel is so important, and the desire to live in peace. The reality is that for all Jews in Israel ‘the Holocaust’ has never ended – merely slowed. Peace has never been known, and there’s no doubt that their neighbours, with few exception, would like to finish off what Hitler started.

Seems to me it’s Ward and his ilk, including the BBC, who have not learned the lessons of the Holocaust. It is their kind of mentality which caused and perpetrated it. Lowly beings, who can’t think too well, appeasing Muslims who if they get their way, will eventually destroy Ward and his kind.

Right now, he just wants their votes.

Eddie

Indeed. My similar post stating the same went AWOL, probably because I mentioned the Muslim voter issue, or the proportion of British Muslims who thought the terrorist tube attack in 2005 was ‘a good thing’ according to polls.
The BBC are massively biased against Israel, as is the licence-fee-funded Channel 4 new with Jon Al-Snow, the hypocritical hero of positive action (which won’t affect him of course, being a silverback secure in his position).
Everyone should always keep in their mind the following: Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East; it is surrounded by Islamic countries which want to destroy it and wipe Jews from the face of the earth by grinding up their bones and dumping them in the sea (that is from the Hamas manifesto); it is a pluralistic, tolerant place, with a free press, where women, gays, non-Jews, atheists and Arabs can live without fear (Arabs are even high court judges there). Compare please to the Islamofascist states surrounding it.
Now, even if one does not agree with every single thing Israel does – (is anyone surprised they are paranoid, being hemmed in on all sidea by Muslim hatemongers who want to kill them all?) – then at least accept that it is by far the most modern and tolerant and decent country in the region.
Every single day in Muslims countries anti-semitic cartoons and other programmes appear. Children are brainwashed with jew-hatred from birth. And those who profess to supporting democracy in the West support these quasi-fascist religious maniacs?
They should remember that in the past Jews, Christians and others lived in the lands now ruled by Muslims for Muslims – they have ethnically cleansed their backwards hateful countries over the decades. And now they want to destroy the only beacon of civilisation in the Middle East: Israel.
And all the useful idiots here support them because they have brown faces and a religion, and also because the left has always typically supported Arabs (as the Russian commies did, being as anti-semitic as the Nazis anyway). Why? Well, massive immigration to the UK and Muslims influence in the media has to be a factor really.
They should all be ashamed of themselves. Are they just too stupid to know that they’re supporting fascism with a brown face, or don’t they care?

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

And those like Clive Andrews here will read your valid and well written post and still wonder why consistent criticism of Israel, with no balance by proper criticism of the Arabs, is deemed racist.

Jews should simply forget centuries of persecution and attempts to exterminate them, and the fact that there are still many who want to ‘finish the job’, this time criticism with the purpose of vilifying and demonizing them is valid, even if the critic sees no cause to do so against their sworn enemies.

And Clive wonders why I smell a rat.

Lemby

Just so you’re aware Israel is far from the only democracy in the middle east. Iran is a democracy, it may be friendly towards the west and their diplomatic evolution may have been setback by our countries kicking their prime minster out and placing a dictator in Mossadegh’s place. But Iran is a democracy.

Joel Frank

As is Russia and China.

Noa

We can be surely trust Mr Ward to believe that he acted from the purest beliefs and principles.

And he will be rather more concerned to counter the growing threat to his seat from Respect than the fax savauge discipline he may receive from Lib Dem HQ.

DougS

I must have missed that snippet of news about Israel rounding up Palestinians, herding them into concentration camps and gassing them.

It’s not like the unspeakable BBC to miss something like that!

Sarah

You missed the news of them herding Gazans into Gaza, blocking the exits and then dropping white phosphorous on them?

It was on the news every day for about a week; 6pm, BBC1. And it goes in the papers; probably not the Spectator, try the back catalogues of The New Statesman or The Times, Observer, Independent, Guardian, might have been in the Telegraph. Oh and on the Internet. Oh and on the radio, I think you can get a podcast.

Eddie

Gaza is a hellhole created and maintained by Muslims – most who live there are not natives, but from Syria and elsewhere. Countries like Egypt have deliberately kept conditions in Gaza bad – just so they can use it as a stick with which to beat Israel. If they and other jew-hating Islamofascist countries of that region wanted to, they could solve the Gaza issue in a day by welcoming back their natives as refugees.
And let’s not forget Hamas in Gaza – as near to Nazis as the world has today (read their mission statement – very Berlin 1936). Or that rockets are being fired into Israel from there – or that the terrorists there have no problem at all in using civilians as human shields or firing rockets from people’s homes and mosques. Then of course they blame the Israelis when they fire back!
Israel is the only pluralistic democracy in the region, with a free press and tolerant culture, where even a former Prime Minister was convicted of rape in a court of law with an Arab judge.
Good to see that you’re supporting people who believe in rape as part of their culture, Sarah, and anyway would need 4 witnesses to prove any rape (in one of their joke ‘courts’ where muftis and mullahs alone decide who lives and dies).
So let’s see if I can sum your position up in an nutshell: rape is bad is white men do it; but if brownskinned Muslims who do it or kill and torture people or start wars then it’s OK, because they’re Muslims and hate Israel (ie the jews), so that makes them ‘the good guys’.
Oh dear…

Baron

Eddie, you’re a star, it’s one of your best.

Sarah

Yes well the bar wasn’t very high was it. I suppose at least this time he has bothered to put some actual words between his myths and bollocks.

Noa

Sarah. Though I’m sure it won’t concern you in the least, I’m both amused and disappointed in equal measure. You’ve shown that can be much better than that..

zakisbak

“herding Gazans into Gaza, blocking the exits and then dropping white phosphorous on them?” -
Gazans elected a fascist,genocidal,racist government,who intensified the launching of missiles at Israeli civilians.
Egypt,and Israel partially closed border crossings as a result of repeated attacks of convoys using them.
Israel eventually responded to continuous attacks with targetted military action,including white phosphorous,used for smoke screening,which “The Goldstone report accepted …….is not illegal under international law”.

BBC,The New Statesman,Observer, Independent, Guardian,…. all completely impartial of course,unlikely to take as gospel reports from NGOs etc. Even the Times now is printing Der Sturmer type cartoons,portraying Jews as bloodthirsty murderers.

And,of course Sarah,it was al-husseini,Hitler’s ally,the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem,the spiritual godfather of Fatah et al,who was planning the genocide of Jews,even as real concentration camps and gas chambers were being used.

http://twitter.com/cymruisrael George Alexander

Sarah, did you know that Menachem Begin offered to give Gaza to Egypt as part of the peace treaty? Sadat refused!

simon davis

Erm..David Ward is simply stating “what is”. Poor and lazy words Mr Liddle. Using the classic two magic words “anti semite” is enough to shut down the argument for most uninformed and ignorant people. No. I am not anti jewish or israeli. However, i Can hold ( like David Ward ) two truths at the same time. The holocaust was an abomination, truely terrible for the Jews and israeli policies do in fact lead to persecution of the Palestinians. Put these together and questions arise. Difficult questions. It is sad that You use Your privilaged position in a paper to both chastise the author and sweep the issue under the carpet. This leaves you Mr Liddle intellectually and morally wanting as you are exposed as on one side of the fence. That maybe your biased position but it is not wide or compassionate or on the path of solution based Thinking. If it not correct to bring up persecution in the hear and now lest “sensibilities ” Are offended then frankly there never Will be a “right” time, and no doubt another excuse Will be found to offer antisemetism at a future date when this is commented upon again

Augustus

” No. I am not anti jewish or israeli. I don’t hate Jews, only Jews who support Zionists.”

He’s the MP for Bradford, of course – which is about half Asian Muslims, I think. He got in probably by slagging off the sitting Labour MP after Blair’s Iraq venture (Muslims always support Muslims, even if they’re fascists in countries they know nothing about – the ‘ummah’, donchaknow…)
He is merely stating the view of most anti-Israel MPs and commentators – many express love for the Palestinians and Hamas, that neo-facist organisation which wants to eradicate all Jews from the face of the earth (That preening middle class meeja moocher Owen Jones is a big fan…).
So why on earth are these people joining in with National Holocaust Day anyway? Shouldn’t they have their own National Hitler Day or something, where they can re-enact the annihilation of their jew enemies? That is. after all, what a great many Muslims want, if we’re honest.
But then, when are we ever honest? The Meeja (esp TV esp the BBC) aren’t, anyway, as they constantly portray Muslims as fluggy bismillah bunnies hopping around in peace and love, rubbing noses and whiskers with their bestest fwends, the jews and infidels… Who woulda thunk that 15% of British Muslims think that the bomb attacks in 2005 were a ‘good thing’ and that it’s justifiable to kill non-Muslims?

Dogsnob

Clever move by Ward. He knew from the start he would be made to retract but also that his sentiment would be picked up by the erm…distinctive perspective of his electorate. Think of all that legwork he’s just saved himself running up to the next election.