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Oh dear. They can't even balance Lotro pvp correctly (infact they're so hilariously inept that it can't get much worse) and they want to try and put out a game where its entire core is the careful balancing of characters and mechanics. Turbine will have a rude awakening if they think they can get away with flat-out ignoring the fans of a moba game like they do with Lotro.

Oh dear. They can't even balance Lotro pvp correctly (infact they're so hilariously inept that it can't get much worse) and they want to try and put out a game where its entire core is the careful balancing of characters and mechanics. Turbine will have a rude awakening if they think they can get away with flat-out ignoring the fans of a moba game like they do with Lotro.

It's not the fact they are making this game, I don't mind that, but it's the fact they are making this game when they have been completely shoving off and haven't been investing as much time as they should with any pvp aspects of lotro is what ticks me off. I even called for a MOBA when it came to making a 1v1 arena in a post way back, where you could 1v1 people without renown/infamy coming into play.

Originally Posted by msr

i got $5 on green lantern being then new rk, and aqua-man being current moors guardians

Yes, this is another opportunity to whine about turbine when the blame for lack of investment in PvP is lack of players. Sapience pretty much came out and said so on the forums (im not going to dig up the quote, its there though). I would never advise a client to invest resources into an aspect of their business that dosent generate a large amount of income. I would use the measure's at my disposal to make that call, and I assume at turbine its based on % of players demanding the pvp product. I obviously don't have access to their books, but it dosent take a rocket scientist to figure out they are squeezing revenue from the IP. The store offerings and sales are pretty indicative of what the customer base is demanding to consume, and its not often you see creep maps and skills on sale. The LOTRO player base simply dosent consume the PvP offering on a large enough scale to merit investment, its very simple.

Yes, this is another opportunity to whine about turbine when the blame for lack of investment in PvP is lack of players. Sapience pretty much came out and said so on the forums (im not going to dig up the quote, its there though). I would never advise a client to invest resources into an aspect of their business that dosent generate a large amount of income. I would use the measure's at my disposal to make that call, and I assume at turbine its based on % of players demanding the pvp product. I obviously don't have access to their books, but it dosent take a rocket scientist to figure out they are squeezing revenue from the IP. The store offerings and sales are pretty indicative of what the customer base is demanding to consume, and its not often you see creep maps and skills on sale. The LOTRO player base simply dosent consume the PvP offering on a large enough scale to merit investment, its very simple.

I'm not complaining at all, but I don't think it was ever a lack of players, but lack of caring on their part. I don't always believe what employees of Turbine say, not after all these years. There was a time when pvp was flourishing, ofc it's gonna decline when the company isn't doing much to change it and only makes it worse.

Btw, I saw in the last couple months, that monster play stuff has been on sale a good bit, like 3 times in that span.

I'm not complaining at all, but I don't think it was ever a lack of players, but lack of caring on their part. I don't always believe what employees of Turbine say, not after all these years. There was a time when pvp was flourishing, ofc it's gonna decline when the company isn't doing much to change it and only makes it worse.

Btw, I saw in the last couple months, that monster play stuff has been on sale a good bit, like 3 times in that span.

I didn't say you were, you asked only one question in the initial post, I answered it with my thoughts. They absolutely care about PvP, most monster classes got a complete rework not that long ago. They updated the OP's and how they affect the moors play, changed how keeps are defended, they even fixed the top left hand stair on the second floor of TA.... You claim there was a time when PvP was flourishing, that's a lovely sentiment but it would require an agreed upon definition of "flourish". Ive always flourished in PvP, because I play the way I want as long as I desire within the guidelines turbine sets. Do I like them? Not all of them, some really suck. Do I think turbine could do a better job on PvP? yeah no question. However I understand completely why a company would not invest resources into an aspect of their business that most of their customers don't use. Is turbine to blame for this? Yes 100% its their fault they didn't invest in PvP from the beginning and sustain it as a long term viable end game activity for its VIP customers. I would have advised them to make PvP the exclusive play zone of those people who choose to pay for VIP access, affording those people exclusive access to "monster play" and further granting those VIP customers exclusive gear only obtainable within the PvP zone that was equal to end game instance gear drops(not just armor). They didn't do that, they kept it as a side show and because of that lack of vision and marketing we are at our current state. I don't see a way to incentivize moors play, you need to make it attractive, as it is now basically anyone can get a 1st age symbol, you can farm for a rank and title and there are no tangible in game benefits (like titles) someone can achieve for exclusive moors play that cant be obtained with ease. Its not going to get worse and its not going to decline its going to remain on a straight line like it has been for sometime. The people who like the moors, play in the moors. Its not a bad way to play lotro despite its in perfections. The inevitable problem then becomes what traditionally happens in relationships that last for an extended amount of time, managing expectations. It would seem, people expect turbine to fix something that they are choosing to consume as is, it makes no sense at all, but hey I get it you want more. 1000TP says you'll still be out there in the moors, dissastified and all.

I didn't say you were, you asked only one question in the initial post, I answered it with my thoughts. They absolutely care about PvP, most monster classes got a complete rework not that long ago. They updated the OP's and how they affect the moors play, changed how keeps are defended, they even fixed the top left hand stair on the second floor of TA.... You claim there was a time when PvP was flourishing, that's a lovely sentiment but it would require an agreed upon definition of "flourish". Ive always flourished in PvP, because I play the way I want as long as I desire within the guidelines turbine sets. Do I like them? Not all of them, some really suck. Do I think turbine could do a better job on PvP? yeah no question. However I understand completely why a company would not invest resources into an aspect of their business that most of their customers don't use. Is turbine to blame for this? Yes 100% its their fault they didn't invest in PvP from the beginning and sustain it as a long term viable end game activity for its VIP customers. I would have advised them to make PvP the exclusive play zone of those people who choose to pay for VIP access, affording those people exclusive access to "monster play" and further granting those VIP customers exclusive gear only obtainable within the PvP zone that was equal to end game instance gear drops(not just armor). They didn't do that, they kept it as a side show and because of that lack of vision and marketing we are at our current state. I don't see a way to incentivize moors play, you need to make it attractive, as it is now basically anyone can get a 1st age symbol, you can farm for a rank and title and there are no tangible in game benefits (like titles) someone can achieve for exclusive moors play that cant be obtained with ease. Its not going to get worse and its not going to decline its going to remain on a straight line like it has been for sometime. The people who like the moors, play in the moors. Its not a bad way to play lotro despite its in perfections. The inevitable problem then becomes what traditionally happens in relationships that last for an extended amount of time, managing expectations. It would seem, people expect turbine to fix something that they are choosing to consume as is, it makes no sense at all, but hey I get it you want more. 1000TP says you'll still be out there in the moors, dissastified and all.

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean for my "I'm not complaining at all" to come off the way it did. I was just stating I'm not complaining compared to others lol, there's no point to it, I just know this company is pretty lazy when it comes to pvp.

My point is: I don't think they care enough to really look at the changes they make, and take an in depth look at what repercussions come along with that, particularly with that expac.

I personally think they should make it so you have to buy a freep slot and don't have to be VIP the way they've made the moors now. It's not worth the VIP sub imo. I still to this day regret not buying the lifetime account.

I agree with you on the further points about how rank has been diminished to a laughable state as in acquiring such with ease, and then the incentives not being as lofty of a task due to the renown/infamy changes. Well, I want 1000tp, because I bet ya I'm not out there right now .

The problem is, they've engendered such expectations due to the fact they've made "promises" like a new pvp zone in RoI and never went through with it, hints of a new monster play class, etc., and that's why they create a bad rep for themselves and wonder why. If they didn't state such things, they wouldn't have as bad of a rep when it comes to pvp.

the basic problem is their perception tht pvp has little impact on the game populations as a whole. yes if you poled who wants to do pvp exclusively you would have small %. however it the pvmp that keeps the players playing with they have capped gear and don't feel like grinding end game instances...pvp offers a new and different challenge every time you venture into the moors.

Wake up WB and turbine and invest in pvmp to help retain your player base!....if you do it right it can be your cash cow...

The biggest issue as I see it is WB/Turbine not willing to capitalize on - or failing to see the very real potential of - using their licence from Middle Earth Enterprises to create a superb well-marketed Tolkien PVmP-MMO, either from what they have already in LOTRO, via some substantial reworking and a global relaunch, or something entirely new. It genuinely completely shocks me that as a business, they repeatedly fail to capitalise. There is an established wealth of interest in the Tolkien world spanning all kinds of ages, and judging the potential for such a game purely on the intermittently-managed side-show that is currently LOTRO PvmP is a huge mistake on their part, not least since they themselves as developers can be the only ones responsible for the kind of low %'s of players (they say) they have in that portion of the game - which of course is a % only relative to those who play the other, more heavily financially supported side of the game. The way they interpret their player statistics has nothing to do with a wider lack of interest in a form of dedicated Tolkienesque PvmP gaming. If only they would realize this.

My point is: I don't think they care enough to really look at the changes they make, and take an in depth look at what repercussions come along with that, particularly with that expac.

We disagree then, perhaps not in spirit but certainly in specifics. I think they do care and really look at the changes they made. The moors is a better place now then it has been. You ever chat with a creep who played during SOA? Ask them about hunters DPS, or endless CC.... They think about it, they simply don't afford as much time and resources into it as they do other aspects of the game. I for one would have loved a deeper investment into PvP as opposed to the ridiculous investment of resources into mounted combat. Its done little to enhance the PVE part of the game for me personally, I certainly am not seeing a lot of chatter in GLFF and kin chat like "boy I cant wait to go out on my warsteed again today!!!!!". I think the better argument is, was and will be, turbine makes investments into the PVE game that the resources could have been used for PvP. Next is the class revamps, do you know anyone who was clamoring for class revamps? Had it even crossed your mind prior to their decision to move forward with it? They invest in the PVE product, I assume because it makes them money and they need substantive features once a year to herald a new xpac. Its a ###### model, but its the model they are going with and I can only assume its working as they seem to be sticking to a clear pattern of advancement with the product. WB aren't stupid people, if this wasn't working im sure they would change the model. So the grim reality is, lotro PvP wont get a lot of resources and the pve part of lotro will continue to have things changed that don't need to be. Why? Because consumers choose to purchase the product offering as is. The only way lotro pvp is going to get more, much more is if there is a shift in the consumption pattern of the users. I don't see it happening, most of these people will eat whatever turbine dishes out. Mounted combat being the last silly change, next will be class rewrites. of course none of this really helps you and your arguing points, ive done what you are doing in the past its a fruitless waste of time. Your simply going to have to accept lotro for what it is and continue to play or make the decision to move on. I believe they care about the product, I also believe, they believe they are making good decisions with the game. On the later I disagree with them strongly. The class rewrites has the potential to alienate a lot of people, people who have played their toons this way for 5-6-7 years.... Id be more worried about them loosing users because of their horrific pve choices, you might not have a moors to play in.

For me the main reason Turbine/WB will never ever focus properlyon PvMP is becuase it is completely and uteerly fcuked up right now.

They would have to completely redesign the creep classes and address all the bugs that have been in the Moors for years and that is just for starters. The Moors was, and I quote from previous forum posts of old, 'The Moors was only sessional play'. This means they can not add anything of great value to the Creeps whatsoever. They cant even add simple things like mail box or shared vaults - its that stupid. Well designed Turbine

Turbine never expected Moors to be as popular as it is and will never invest any kind of money into it. Any and all updates to it, will be token jestures inthe vainhope to keep people interested.

The Helms Deep freep class revamp will probably kill off the Moors anyhow as they have no idea at all what it'll do for the freeps once they step into the Moors and from past experiences, make freeps even more OP then they are now.

It'll then take months and months before any minor update to some of the creep classes, by which times freeps will QQ on the forums saying we are OP and it'll get nurfed once again (past history proven this)

They can't even balance Lotro pvp correctly (infact they're so hilariously inept that it can't get much worse) and they want to try and put out a game where its entire core is the careful balancing of characters and mechanics.

"Balance" is defined in many ways, and all personal opinions. Note, with the Ettenmoors, the balance is designed to be different than what most people would expect it to be. For example: 1v1s were NEVER intended to be balanced as the Ettenmoors is built on group-dynamics, and therefore any balance at all is based on being in groups. Turbine calls it a Raid vs. Raid region for a good reason. Second, while balance isn't completely finished, it is pretty close to finished (compare it to SoA days and you'll get my drift... *cough*). Things are just implemented differently and require brain-use (something that is very difficult for the dumbed down part of the population). Freeps have high dps, Creeps have high morale. Things are almost always the opposite. Factors such as skills/effects are all countered by one of the Creep classes; You just need to have one of each class in your fellowship to be able to pull off every counter (that's where the trouble begins as you can't always count on having one of each class in your group/raid). When it boils down to "Balance"... What really is balance in a RTS/RPG hybrid-mechanic map built for group clashing? Strategy, skill knowledge, tactics, etc. The designers behind the Ettenmoors aren't stupid (as many would like to believe), they just don't do it the same way as you want. (Read below before responding).

I'm not saying it's 100% balanced, because obviously it isn't. But it's getting close. I will admit, the PvE changes made shouldn't effect the Ettenmoors, but at this moment that's unavoidable with the current. Now-- There is a solution (but people too stubborn to give up their PvE stuff won't agree, trust me, I've tried): It requires putting Audacity on Jewelry to control stats entirely. What would this do? Allow Turbine to make 3 jewelry sets and force people to only use those. This way at each expansion they can nerf stats on sets to fit any PvE changes they make to the class that expansion.

Lots of bugs and stuff to work out, but it'll get there. Hang in there.

People are escalating their complaints now to WB on their FB page about the Moors.

And a majority of those people can't even accept the current mechanics (RTS/RPG hybrid), so they're never gonna be happy regardless. They need to find a game that better fits their interests.

Find characters that haven't been to the Moors and drag em out there. Give them a tour and get them killed. Let them know it's no big deal. Rinse and repeat. It's one thing you can do for sure.

It's really not a big deal unless you're afraid of dying... Even though you have a respawn and have no gear damage penalty... Dying is a part of the Ettenmoors (as with all PvP games, actually). Get back up and fight again. Group up to get more points and earn your Audacity gear. Not a big deal if you're TRULY a fan of player vs. player.

the basic problem is their perception tht pvp has little impact on the game populations as a whole. yes if you poled who wants to do pvp exclusively you would have small %. however it the pvmp that keeps the players playing with they have capped gear and don't feel like grinding end game instances...pvp offers a new and different challenge every time you venture into the moors.

Turbine openly perceves Ettenmoors as viable end-game content, regardless of it being a lesser population on servers; Given that the total population of Ettenmoors users across all servers combined is actually quite a lot of people. I hate when they mix PvE with PvP though. You should PvP to earn PvP gear and PvE to earn PvE gear. Mixing those was never a good idea.

The Helms Deep freep class revamp will probably kill off the Moors anyhow as they have no idea at all what it'll do for the freeps once they step into the Moors and from past experiences, make freeps even more OP then they are now.

It'll then take months and months before any minor update to some of the creep classes, by which times freeps will QQ on the forums saying we are OP and it'll get nurfed once again (past history proven this)

All this massive QQ about being under-powered, yet I see people having no issues winning on their Creeps. Considering the Monster Player classes are about 600% stronger than they were at launch, and getting stronger... And remember it's an open-map game. If you can't win with even numbers, GET MORE. It's not demanding more brain-cells, honestly, it's common-sense. The Ettenmoors was originally all about numbers anyway.

the basic problem is their perception tht pvp has little impact on the game populations as a whole. yes if you poled who wants to do pvp exclusively you would have small %. however it the pvmp that keeps the players playing with they have capped gear and don't feel like grinding end game instances...pvp offers a new and different challenge every time you venture into the moors.

Wake up WB and turbine and invest in pvmp to help retain your player base!....if you do it right it can be your cash cow...

just my 2 cents...

Exactly. I agree with this. For some reason, they don't feel 10%+ of their player base, as well as consumer base (willing to go for the +) isn't important.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

We disagree then, perhaps not in spirit but certainly in specifics. I think they do care and really look at the changes they made. The moors is a better place now then it has been. You ever chat with a creep who played during SOA? Ask them about hunters DPS, or endless CC.... They think about it, they simply don't afford as much time and resources into it as they do other aspects of the game. I for one would have loved a deeper investment into PvP as opposed to the ridiculous investment of resources into mounted combat. Its done little to enhance the PVE part of the game for me personally, I certainly am not seeing a lot of chatter in GLFF and kin chat like "boy I cant wait to go out on my warsteed again today!!!!!". I think the better argument is, was and will be, turbine makes investments into the PVE game that the resources could have been used for PvP. Next is the class revamps, do you know anyone who was clamoring for class revamps? Had it even crossed your mind prior to their decision to move forward with it? They invest in the PVE product, I assume because it makes them money and they need substantive features once a year to herald a new xpac. Its a ###### model, but its the model they are going with and I can only assume its working as they seem to be sticking to a clear pattern of advancement with the product. WB aren't stupid people, if this wasn't working im sure they would change the model. So the grim reality is, lotro PvP wont get a lot of resources and the pve part of lotro will continue to have things changed that don't need to be. Why? Because consumers choose to purchase the product offering as is. The only way lotro pvp is going to get more, much more is if there is a shift in the consumption pattern of the users. I don't see it happening, most of these people will eat whatever turbine dishes out. Mounted combat being the last silly change, next will be class rewrites. of course none of this really helps you and your arguing points, ive done what you are doing in the past its a fruitless waste of time. Your simply going to have to accept lotro for what it is and continue to play or make the decision to move on. I believe they care about the product, I also believe, they believe they are making good decisions with the game. On the later I disagree with them strongly. The class rewrites has the potential to alienate a lot of people, people who have played their toons this way for 5-6-7 years.... Id be more worried about them loosing users because of their horrific pve choices, you might not have a moors to play in.

I agree to disagree with you then after 6 years of what I've seen , but I agree, we def don't disagree in the spirit of wanting better pvp. I just feel that they don't really take the time to think things through all the time, and if they do mess up, they don't go and fix it right away, they just it wallow there in its terrible implementation. What they think of is not always the worst ideas, it's just the implementation of those ideas that kills them.

Now for SoA, are we talking about prebk12, which was insanely imbalanced (yet fun), or book 12-14, which was probably the most balanced pvp we ever had all-around (least moreso towards the end of it)? If it's prebk12, I'd agree, if it's book 12-14 (having a guardian and a reaver then), I'd prob disagree. They implemented DR in book 14 I believe, which was when it got the most balanced all-around. Now I heard they took it out, so CC is actually kind of ridic then.

Yeah, I like the warsteed's speed, just not so crazy about it in general. I, like you, would have loved to see it more invested into.

I also realize the grim reality that is Turbine and it's pve approach to the game. I personally wish they could focus equally on pve and pvp.

I won't really mind if there are no moors to play in because Turbine self-destructed themselves if they destroy the moors. I think they would be regretting it as I'm sure there would be outrage among pvpers that still play here. I personally wouldn't care as I don't even play this game anymore.

Originally Posted by BiteMarks

For me the main reason Turbine/WB will never ever focus properlyon PvMP is becuase it is completely and uteerly fcuked up right now.

They would have to completely redesign the creep classes and address all the bugs that have been in the Moors for years and that is just for starters. The Moors was, and I quote from previous forum posts of old, 'The Moors was only sessional play'. This means they can not add anything of great value to the Creeps whatsoever. They cant even add simple things like mail box or shared vaults - its that stupid. Well designed Turbine

Turbine never expected Moors to be as popular as it is and will never invest any kind of money into it. Any and all updates to it, will be token jestures inthe vainhope to keep people interested.

The Helms Deep freep class revamp will probably kill off the Moors anyhow as they have no idea at all what it'll do for the freeps once they step into the Moors and from past experiences, make freeps even more OP then they are now.

It'll then take months and months before any minor update to some of the creep classes, by which times freeps will QQ on the forums saying we are OP and it'll get nurfed once again (past history proven this)

They've said they are going to "invest" in pvp halfway through Helm's Deep, and who knows what that will actually do. They really should put in mailboxes and vaults, just make them monster play esque to make it more lore appropriate.

Originally Posted by Graycient

Actually, they have.

My question to you is though, my friend: have they been focusing on pvp or have they been "focusing"?

The moors will make a lot more cash than I bet sapience is willing to admit.

I've never understood why the potential harness has only ever been abused by the executives of this game. Like, for example, I wonder where the prime consent of the concept for the 'Big Battles' came from... l0l0l0l
These executives are funny. I've never known a company to maintain a such a narrow-minded vision when it comes to their facets.

Turbine gave away their right for Lotro to remain a PvE game the moment they thought about the ettenmoors.

-Balance freep and creep side. Creeps shouldn't have to die for a month to have a chance in 1vs1 combat.
-Open up the moors to non vips, this way freeps won't get outnumbered.
-Redesign the map, make it more interesting.
-Give the creeps some kind of mount, so they can get around as fast as freep mounts. (Or make all maps available for every new creep)
-MILK IT

Yeah right now 5% of people play in the moors, want to know why it's so unpopular because the only people who can participate in it are:

-VIPS lvl 75+ the moors would be stuffed if non vips could get in.
-All players as creeps, but to have any fun as a creep you have to first die for a month to have any chance of killing the other side.

So let everybody get in there then the creeps won't be 10 to 1 and you could balance the two teams out. The only problem is that it could get so popular that the moors start to lag from overcrowding. If you can, fix the lag then milk it. If you don't want to do this, you have two options:

1. Remove monster play from the game, it's broken.
2. Open world pvp, let creeps spawn in the depths of moria and in angmar. Let them gain ranks by doing creep instances. Let them roam freely all over the world without ways of teleporting around. Major towns would have guards that'd shoot them down like the guards that guard spawn points in the moors. (This would be awesome)

Yes, this is another opportunity to whine about turbine when the blame for lack of investment in PvP is lack of players. Sapience pretty much came out and said so on the forums (im not going to dig up the quote, its there though). I would never advise a client to invest resources into an aspect of their business that dosent generate a large amount of income. I would use the measure's at my disposal to make that call, and I assume at turbine its based on % of players demanding the pvp product. I obviously don't have access to their books, but it dosent take a rocket scientist to figure out they are squeezing revenue from the IP. The store offerings and sales are pretty indicative of what the customer base is demanding to consume, and its not often you see creep maps and skills on sale. The LOTRO player base simply dosent consume the PvP offering on a large enough scale to merit investment, its very simple.

"If you build it they will come..." or The tail wags the dog

By your logic the chicken came before the egg. *If* they put effort into quality, balanced PvP store sales in that category would go up because players came to lotro for the PvP, correct?

We would never have revolutionary, new products if this thought process pervaded in our economy. Everything you said is totally correct, but the company can control the direction of a product. What you've described is a company that I would never invest a cent in. Maybe WB / Turbine really has thrown in the towel on lotro...

They need to take a leaf out of Dark Age of Camelot's book, and the moors will be golden. Build siege machines, upgrade keeps, collecting of materials (which is there to a lesser degree with oil and such) , so that once you take a keep...You can

A. Rebuild a keep back to its former glory with materials collected around the moors. Which not only upgrades with materials but makes the NPC'S alot more viable.

B. Doors that can be upgraded and repaired by the side that owns the keep or that is defending.

C. NO more bloody auto-flips, both sides should have to work for the keeps.

D. The ability to build siege machines for both the attacking and defending sides.

E. I would like to see somthing like this. IF the creep side makes the whole map red in the moors, then they can enter another zone (or map) that is usually closed to them and open to 85+ PVE players. This zone has Unique gear or rare recipes and is a dangerous place to go, even in pve. A warning comes up that the forces of darkness (the monster players) have breeched the defences in the moors and can now run freely in this new zone, burning and pillaging and what not. THE PVE players get a heads up and can either leave the new invaded zone OR stay and fight, with the regular pvp players, to defend and win back the zone and all the potential unique loot that comes with it!

AT least these few ideas would spice things up a tad. The keep upgrades and doors would at least stop the wave zergs from both sides running through a keep ignoring all the useless NPCS as they go.

I have many ideas, and perhaps this is not the place to vent them all, BUT pvp (or pvmp if you like) COULD be a huge success for lord of the rings online, IF they only gave us a new map or place to fight and spent a little time on things to do in the moors.