Reader Comments and Retorts

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Hot dogs, pretzels and cotton candy will be retired for the day as kimchi, kale chips and vegan cookies will be served with a cup of tea.

The Cubs will wear their throwback uniforms from the twenties, but will wear beanies instead of caps to commemorate the night. The art zine, 1/2, will be sold in lieu of programs. The seventh inning stretch will be replaced by a discussion about Charles Bukowski.

“We’re aware that hipsters don’t refer to themselves as hipsters, but to entice them to come to the game we will have pop-up stores from Urban Outfitters and American Apparel,” said Epstein. “Wrigley Field also has free Wi-Fi for blog posts or Instagram. And yes, we’ll allow American Spirit to be smoked and only PBR to be served. We’d like the hipsters to actually watch the game, but we’re planning on them just meandering around aimlessly.”

Our 12 year old goddaughter has called me a hipster, and I don't think she meant it as an insult. But can someone kindly explain to me what the #### a "hipster" is? I can't imagine what it could possibly have to do with cookie cutter chain stores like Urban Outfitters or American Apparel, but then I kind of got waylaid in the transition from beatnik to hippie, and I don't think I'll ever fully understand the language of marketing scam artists.

P.S. And yes, obviously Epstein was talking tongue in cheek, and obviously Hipster Night is a big put-on. Duh. But that aside, does the word actually mean anything?

The first time I heard the word "hipster" was when Elaine called Kramer a "hipster dufus" and shoved him into Jerry's sink.

Though she was using the term very differently from how it is used today.

Also of note, I was just watching the one where George thinks he had a heart-attack, but really just needs his tonsils out. Jerry tries to suffocate him with a pillow, and afterwards George calls him a "jerk off". Which seems awfully risque for early 90s network TV. Funny how words move around over time.

Hipster is a term popularly used to denote an international subculture primarily consisting of white millennials living in urban areas. The subculture has been described as a "mutating, trans-Atlantic melting pot of styles, tastes and behavior[s]" and is broadly associated with indie and alternative music, a varied non-mainstream fashion sensibility (including vintage and thrift store-bought clothes), generally third party independent political views, organic and artisanal foods, and alternative lifestyles. Hipsters are typically described as affluent or middle class young Bohemians who reside in gentrifying neighborhoods.

Which I think is pretty good, as a working definition, and adjacent to my own sensibilities. I've also seen it linked to the notion of irony as an ethos, but I'm not sure how that fits in with the idea of "the new sincerity" and all that which has been linked with millennials.

Normally, I hear hipster as an insult - where people slapped with that label reject it and apply it to whatever group would marginally be more linked to those trends than they are.

The first time I heard the word "hipster" was when Elaine called Kramer a "hipster dufus" and shoved him into Jerry's sink.

In truth that term's been around since the 1940's, even though appropriately enough for Seinfeld, Rennie's Wiki link was a link that led to nothing. In the 40's and the 50's "hipster" was first linked to jazz musicians and their followers, and later became somewhat conflated with "beatnik", where it quickly became mainstreamed and then became a term of sarcastic derision, much as "hipster" is today. All of this #### is pretty much just recycled every few generations.

Hipster is a term popularly used to denote an international subculture primarily consisting of white millennials living in urban areas. The subculture has been described as a "mutating, trans-Atlantic melting pot of styles, tastes and behavior[s]" and is broadly associated with indie and alternative music, a varied non-mainstream fashion sensibility (including vintage and thrift store-bought clothes), generally third party independent political views, organic and artisanal foods, and alternative lifestyles. Hipsters are typically described as affluent or middle class young Bohemians who reside in gentrifying neighborhoods.

Let's see:

1. White - yes, at 31/32nds
2. Urban - nope, much prefer the suburbs
3. Indie/alt music - Mostly not. Most of my music is 80's metal.
4. Non-mainstream fashion sensibility - Not sure where to go with this. I have no fashion sensibility.
5. 3rd party political views - close enough. I'm far to the right of republicans on some issues, far left of democrats on others. Can't quite find a party that works for me. Last voted for Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho. Yeah, took the time to type the whole name in.
6. Organic foods - yes
7. Alternative lifestyles - definitely no. Married with 2 kids and 2 cats.
8. Affluent? - above average but not rich

I've also seen it linked to the notion of irony as an ethos, but I'm not sure how that fits in with the idea of "the new sincerity" and all that which has been linked with millennials.

I think the definition you quoted is pretty accurate. In terms of irony and sincerity I can see both ends of it. Hipsters are like a walking Don DeLillo novel in that there actions and words are full of irony for us the viewer and they are blithely unaware of it being so.

I'm white, urban, middle class, quite possibly shading into indie/alt music, have mainstream fashion views, mostly a conservative democrat, hate the very word "organic", and do not have an alternative lifestyle. So apparently I'm just a hip

Using AROM's scoring system in #20, I would be 3/8th "hipster" (white, I wear foreign league sports jerseys (Euro football, international cricket, rugby) instead of t-shirts, affluent).

I used to listen to "alternative" music about 20 years ago, but it's no longer "alternative" (it's 80s/90s retro now), and I haven't listened to anything "new/hip" in about 10 years.

The "hipster doofus" insult by Elaine to Kramer is definitely from #17's (fixed) link.
The clothes, the attitude, the relaxed sexual code, slang...that's Kramer.
(I assumed that he was a secret pot smoker when originally written (his "dazed and confused" speech pattern in the first few episodes), but it looks like it got dropped for just "quirky".)

5. 3rd party political views - close enough. I'm far to the right of republicans on some issues, far left of democrats on others. Can't quite find a party that works for me. Last voted for Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho. Yeah, took the time to type the whole name in.

4. Non-mainstream fashion sensibility - Not sure where to go with this. I have no fashion sensibility.

Oh, look who's normcore!
(I dress kind of badly and amazingly cheaply for someone with some funds to spare and an aversion to used clothes. I own Starburys, for Christ's sake.)

White = (Looks at self.) Yup.
Urban/Gentrified = That's my preference, but am in suburban hell. When you've got kids, schools matter. That said, last year we used a charter that would tick off all kinds of boxes here...
Indie/Alt music = All kinds of yes. And I love Wes Anderson and... - contributions to pop culture is a big part of where I see myself with this crowd
Non-mainstream fashion sensibility = already covered. I like aspects of their aesthetic, but don't think that I qualify.
3rd party political views = umm, I'm the usual "no party really fits me, so I'm politically vocal but not registered with anybody". That said, 95%+ of my votes are for Ds and I'm deluding myself not to call myself one.
Organic = nope. Not only that, I'm vocally a fan of conventional farming. That said, I like food trucks (overrated, but a nice option), "weird" ethnic options, etc... - which is also heavily tied with this demo. I'll take half credit here.
Alternative lifestyles = Nope. I'm basically a TV dad (though that's veered from TGIF to Louie in record time).
Affluent or middle class? = the latter, but sure.

So, 50/50 maybe?

Hipsters tend not to like sports (except for soccer) so most of you guys probably don't qualify. Except for esoteric.

I don't buy this. See that Band of Horses video with the softball game.

And cricket. Don't forget cricket. How hilarious would that be to see on some urban parkgrounds?

I used to live by an urban park that had people playing cricket in it from sun up to sun down in the summer. Of course, this was England and hipster rules apply differently across borders (not caring about soccer, and making sure everyone you meet knows it, is probably rule one for British hipsters).

Though I saw a fair amount of cricket growing up in Toronto, my high school had a team. Though that was more of a large Sri Lankan community thing than an "alternative" culture thing.

Non-mainstream fashion sensibility - Not sure where to go with this. I have no fashion sensibility.

I suspect I had an identifiable fashion sensibility, I just don't really know what it is. Essentially I buy Goodwill or Value Village t-shirts, because spending more than $5 for a shirt still seems crazy to me. So my shirts tend to fall into four categories

1) Sports teams (I think at the moment I have Seahawks, Astros, Florida Gators in rotation)
2) As a hobby I collect t-shirts from various Canadian universities...I've got about 12 of those
3) "Nice" shirts, which I wear for formal occasions or to give talks/lectures (here "nice" means a t-shirt that doesn't have writing on it)
4) Shirts that have something somewhat interesting written on them. Like one for a 2002 medical mission to Zambia, a Tintin book cover, or one which mocks Windsor for being the smog capital of Canada

I will wear long-sleeved plaid shirts over top if it's cool, a hold-over from my Kurt Cobain adoring high school days.

I would guess that's all fairly hipstery, though it's really more about cheapness than anything else. Of course, that's exactly what a hipster would say.

EDIT: As noted earlier this month I have hipster tendencies in Chinese food. Though I like watching/playing a wide range of sports, which is an important bulwark against any latent hipsterishness I may be repressing.

1. White - Viking + Mayflower, so yeah
2. Urban - sure, once they get restore sanity to the cost of housing
3. Indie/alt music - What the #### is that?
4. Non-mainstream fashion sensibility - Four pair of Levis 505's, two pairs of sneakers, and enough random shirts to make it through the laundry cycle. And I've been in jail more days of my life than I've been in a suit---does that help?
5. 3rd party political views - Some sympathy might be restored once Ralph Nader commits hara-kiri like he should have in 1999.
6. Organic foods - sure, if they're cheaper than non-organic
7. Alternative lifestyles - One wife, no kids, one pool table, 8000+ books and 3000+ movie DVDs, mostly copied off TV. Don't know anyone else in this category, so maybe.
8. Affluent? - Below median local income, well above median net worth, no debt and never spent a dime that I didn't already have. You sort it out.

Yeah, there is about 10 bars I know of right now that have bocce ball courts in them in DC right now. To me bocce ball was an activity that 70 year old Italian relatives used to play back in the 1980's during the summer.

Definitely -- it's about the same cry for help as hackeysack, just with a different accent.

To be fair, frisbee was a huge 70s thing, and then those kids grew up, they wanted a sport. And it certainly was a sport, as you run your balls off a la soccer. It was fun for people who hated bro sports, at least until it bro-ed out itself.

Yeah, there is about 10 bars I know of right now that have bocce ball courts in them in DC right now.

1. White - yes, at 31/32nds
2. Urban - nope, much prefer the suburbs
3. Indie/alt music - Mostly not. Most of my music is 80's metal.
4. Non-mainstream fashion sensibility - Not sure where to go with this. I have no fashion sensibility.
5. 3rd party political views - close enough. I'm far to the right of republicans on some issues, far left of democrats on others. Can't quite find a party that works for me. Last voted for Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho. Yeah, took the time to type the whole name in.
6. Organic foods - yes
7. Alternative lifestyles - definitely no. Married with 2 kids and 2 cats.
8. Affluent? - above average but not rich

1 - yup
2 - absolutely
3 - absolutely
4 - let's say 50/50... I enjoy a good thrift store, I enjoy wearing slighted dated sports coats in the fall, and I have a decent number of oddball T-shirts, but I'm usually a pretty standard J Crew weekend/khakis and a polo at work
5 - pretty doctrinaire lefty
6 - meh... I do tend to buy fruits and vegetables at farmers markets, but I'm also not averse to standard Jewel canned fare
7 - not really... I guess I'm single and kidless, but straight and conventional when it comes to romance
8 - not really

I was reading some news article about some DC builder who was bucking the housing trend by actually building family size apartment units in DC. The article was saying just how rare that is and how the trend right now is for really tiny apartment units and to that I say eff that. DC needs to change its zoning laws so that bigger units are approachable investment goal for developers. These $400,000 400 sq feet units at $2,500 a month rental listing is going to do more long term damage to the city than good.

And cricket. Don't forget cricket. How hilarious would that be to see on some urban parkgrounds

There's a school playground near a border of a city of Milwaukee/suburb that regularly (or at least last time I lived aroudn there) has a handball game going. I know there's a decent eastern/central european pop. in the area, guessing it is Croatians. Otherwise, I've never seen people playing handball with my own eyes in my entire life.

Yeah, there is about 10 bars I know of right now that have bocce ball courts in them in DC right now. To me bocce ball was an activity that 70 year old Italian relatives used to play back in the 1980's during the summer.

Ditto to your second sentence.

Amusingly, I just played a bit at Vendetta on Friday night, probably first time since the '80s. And it was pretty damn fun, though I was inebriated enough that lots of things probably would have been.

I love bocce ball. There used to be (maybe still is?) an old Italian place somewhere in the 60's between 1st and 2nd avenue that had a court. If the hipsters are making Bocce popular then that is a MUCH needed point in their favor. Oddly, my mother put a bocce ball court in her backyard when she had the yard landscaped just to have something that would take up some room.

You see cricket a lot in the parks in New York. Obviously it's played mostly by immigrants. I think I'd like to take a crack at it once just to see what it's like.

Bocce seems like a working class game, it can be played anywhere. When I was in Provence I saw old men playing it in town squares, front lawns, in an old fort ruin, even on the beach somehow. I played it there up in a terraced villa where you had a strip about five feet wide before it dropped down to the next step.

Lawn bowling is played by exclusive clubs of people that all wear white, won't let you play unless strictly supervised, and yell at you if you walk on the grass wrong. Of course, my experience with lawn bowling all comes from the club that was adjacent to my middle school. Once a year we had a tournament which invariably ended up with the old guys running the club regretting letting all these pre-teens onto their finely manicured grass.

I think I much prefer Bocce, but there is something appealing about the curling aspect of bowling, which ironically reminds one of Curling!

Hey guys - "longtime lurker" here, I don't post much but I read a lot. I'm completely a "hipster," or at least that's the subculture I identify with most, and I make absolutely no bones about it (despite a lot of my tastes being on many counts in terms of music, fashion, and other interests like baseball, EVEN more eccentric than the average hipster, so maybe that makes me more hipster by some people's counts, but for me it makes me identify a liiiitle less with the overall culture).

I'm white, I currently don't live somewhere urban but more or less have been my entire life and definitely will be again soon, the majority of my life is centered around alternative music, I have a "non-mainstream" fashion sensibility (I'm actually, like, into fashion), I always vote for Democrats but consider myself to the left of all of them so essentially alternative politics, am a big foodie and like cooking a lot and with good ingredients and have been to a fast food place at most 20 times in my life, and I hope to make money in an artistic field so sure, "alternative lifestyle," and I'm not rich but certainly comfortably middle class. I fit on every single dang count and proud of it. There are a lot of problems with "hispter culture," mostly in my mind political - contributing to gentrification, oblivious to their privilege, etc. But those are things they're rarely made fun of, and if it's an excuse they mostly have good intentions and are unaware of those criticisms - the things they ARE made fun of, for having eclectic tastes and "buying local" and having alternative political views, are all actually really important things, in my view. The world would be more boring without hipsters and you know it.

Also, sure, "hipsters don't like sports," but there is at least one hipster who's obsessed with baseball (me) and I like some other sports too. We're out there.

I'm glad to see Thed not trying to siphon another service year out of the prospects at a cost to near future teams. Aclantara, Baez, Hendrick, and possibly more getting significant playing time this year bodes well for a better season for the Cubs next year and the year after that.

I'm guessing Alcantara is going to become the full time CF'er now and Baez plays second?

Our HOA actually has an active Bocce ball league. It is played in its fancy own green space in a commons area. As far a I can tell, the particpants look awfully regular looking upper middle class white guys and women (35-70) to me. If the local hipsters saw this, they would for sure find something else.

he things they ARE made fun of, for having eclectic tastes and "buying local" and having alternative political views, are all actually really important things, in my view. The world would be more boring without hipsters and you know it.

Also, sure, "hipsters don't like sports," but there is at least one hipster who's obsessed with baseball (me) and I like some other sports too. We're out there.

I hate to break it to you but hipsters don't vote in high numbers (as a percentage of eligible) and they aren't particularly civic minded either. The single defining characteristic of hipsters is that they have buried irony and resurrected it again. I personally cannot stand the working class motif that so many trust fund gentrifiers co-opt. PBR, American Spirit, faded denim and tattered bowling shoes, "vintage" t-shirts and crap like that that working families have been buying for years because they can't afford to spend $300 a week at vintage clothes shops.

Hipsters are vultures for the most part, the feed off the carcass of the traditional American working class experience and gentrify neighborhoods without (again, in general) a sense of what came before and what it means to be an urban community.

The common cultural perception of hipsters is "Urban Outfitters," not as much "rich white kids". When people make jokes about hipsters, it's that they like IPAs, not that there are subtle and intricate sociopolitical issues tied into it. And it's good that people started noticing those big problems of privilege and homogeneity in hipster culture in critiques of Girls. But also, the thing is, origin and race of hipsters isn't a defining feature of the culture in the way that "alternative" things are - where I grew up, I had a lot of friends who would be thought of as "hipsters," but the scene I was in just happened to have a lot of kids who were more lower class and people of color. In another place where I've lived it was not like that, there was much more affluence and homogeneity, but it was still "hipsterdom."

I hate to break it to you but hipsters don't vote in high numbers (as a percentage of eligible) and they aren't particularly civic minded either. The single defining characteristic of hipsters is that they have buried irony and resurrected it again. I personally cannot stand the working class motif that so many trust fund gentrifiers co-opt. PBR, American Spirit, faded denim and tattered bowling shoes, "vintage" t-shirts and crap like that that working families have been buying for years because they can't afford to spend $300 a week at vintage clothes shops.

"They aren't particularly civic-minded either," what does this mean exactly, and where are you getting your sources from? First of all, this is a subtle point, but one of the things that's important about hipsters being alternative politically is as a kind of vanguard for future political opinion. Hipsters were into certain political views - gay rights, anti-prison industrial complex, and of course legalizing it, "before they were cool," and it has been argued that these "avant-garde" political views hold an important sociological role for making them eventually popular. (If I'm not explaining it well, there is literature on it.) But this assumption that hipsters are by and large are not politically involved is, in my mind, a very strange attack pulled out of nowhere. It doesn't corroborate to my personal experiences - not that mine are representative of all hipsters, but that there's huge variety in what people call hipsters culture - it covers a LOT of different kinds of people. In my comment above (written before I saw your post), I tried to point that a lot of hipsters DO come from working class families but identify for whatever reason with hispter culture. And a lot of them were born affluent - there's a lot of diversity, for better or for worse, in the subculture as there are in any other.

#72, the sad fact is no, I don't think it's not a critique per se. Maybe it was fairly self-aware of its being "rich New York hipsters" and become more so as it went along, but I honestly think she was completely oblivious at first that it was a problem that there was hardly a single person of color in the entire cast the first season.

"They aren't particularly civic-minded either," what does this mean exactly, and where are you getting your sources from?

Living in Brooklyn for 5 years and working in NYC political for the same time. You know who votes? Old people. You know who shoes up to council and neighborhood meetings? Old people. Minorities. People that are getting moved out of their home because of predatory lending.

#72, the sad fact is no, I don't think it's not a critique per se. Maybe it was fairly self-aware of that and become more so as it went along, but I honestly think she was completely oblivious at first that it was a problem that there was hardly a single person of color in the entire cast the first season.

Ah I see your point on the homogeneity. I was more thinking about the privilege. I always thought the scene in the very first episode with her parents cutting her off firmly established that she was totally oblivious to her privilege. To me, Girls (which I think is a great show by the way) is about an oblivious, over-privileged sociopath. In broad strokes seems to follow the general criticism of millenials, but in execution it is really well done satire. That's probably aided by what seems like ambivalence on Dunham's part as a writer over whether she is criticising herself or not.

Yeah, there is about 10 bars I know of right now that have bocce ball courts in them in DC right now. To me bocce ball was an activity that 70 year old Italian relatives used to play back in the 1980's during the summer.

I used to play every summer when I was younger. There was actually a local league at a private club, and I would hang out there occasionally because they'd ask me to fill in if a team was shorthanded. The league would have 8 games per team throughout the summer, but I'd get in 3-4 games a week just on substitutions. One summer the best team finished with a 6-2 record, but as a substitute I was 26-0. I don't play that often any more - maybe once every few years - but I'm still maintaining an unbeaten streak that dates back to 1985.

The Bertucci's chain of restaurants also started locally, and one of the defining features of their original restaurants was an indoor bocce court. It was a good way to pass the time while waiting for a table to open up.

Living in Brooklyn for 5 years and working in NYC political for the same time. You know who votes? Old people. You know who shoes up to council and neighborhood meetings? Old people

I don't know if I would make it, but I think you can make an argument that among youth cultures hipsters are more political active than other groups in that category. With era and park adjustments maybe they look alright?

75/AG#1F - Nailed it. (Also, not that different from me - though I felt that way before hipsterism in its current incarnation existed.)

madvillain, what you're describing is a cartoon and exists. So is what King Berenger is advocating (though you lose on me on a few points).
I agree that "hipsterism" is largely apolitical. To the extent that it is, it's a function of being associated with younger people - where millennials (reportedly) are more apt to try to work within the system than to try to change it anyway.

Hipsters are vultures for the most part, the feed off the carcass of the traditional American working class experience and gentrify neighborhoods without (again, in general) a sense of what came before and what it means to be an urban community.

I can't really agree with the negative view on hipsters nor these sentences specifically. As a group they are energetic, idealistic, hopeful, and trying to create something that isn't going to change the world but will make the piece of sidewalk it is on just a little bit better. In terms of community it is a little early in the game to be passing judgement on them. The group as a whole is still young and the roots they've put down still aren't deep. Having said that the group as a whole have tremendous community spirit and are generally active participants within their community. As to gentrifying areas I don't really view that as a bad thing. They like all other groups that move into down and out places do so for economic reasons. It is cheaper to live in a dead, dying, or broken area than one that isn't those things. They in turn through their efforts make the area a nice place to live thus gentrification.

If people think Urban Outfitters is hipster world then I would say their exposure to hipsters is of the suburban kind and not the NE heart of hipster world kind of hipsters.

I've said it before but in terms of products and services I love meeting a hipster business owner or worker because they tend to be dedicated to what they are doing and really trying to offer a great product and service. My barbers have been hipsters and I love their service, I know hipster butchers that have offer great meat and cured meats, I know hipster waiters, chefs, restaurant owners that offer amazing services, beer makers, cheese makers, baristas, artists, fashion designers, and so on and as a group, and based on me growing up in the slacker 90's, I have never seen a group more dedicated and passionate about what they are doing regardless of how menial or trivial mainstream America might think it is.

#72, the sad fact is no, I don't think it's not a critique per se. Maybe it was fairly self-aware of its being "rich New York hipsters" and become more so as it went along, but I honestly think she was completely oblivious at first that it was a problem that there was hardly a single person of color in the entire cast the first season.

I disagree in that I think the show was fully self aware from day one. I think the issue around the race of the cast to be a silly and stupid issue. Oh, we're making a show so, quick, I need an Asian guy and a black girl to sit in the background. The shows central thesis was about rich NY white girls and the lives they lead.

The argument that "hipsters" are apolitical is the same as was made for "slackers" or whatever. It's just the newest marketing shorthand for white alternative culture du jour. Meanwhile, gay marriage marches along, Obama gets elected, people blame immigrants for everything, the world is at war, etc etc.

People who say this probably identify with some previous version of the same thing, whether it be hippie, punk, or whatever. It's the same, tired "back in my day" stuff.

Living in Brooklyn for 5 years and working in NYC political for the same time. You know who votes? Old people. You know who shoes up to council and neighborhood meetings? Old people. Minorities. People that are getting moved out of their home because of predatory lending.

Not really a thing unique to hipsters. The issue is more of youth vs the aged. Youth in general doesn't vote and hasn't vote for a very long time while the old vote and have voted for a long time. To piggy back onto post 78 I would say hipsters like to fight global and national issues rather local level ones. They'll join NGOs and march with against the 1% and occupy Wall St. but they aren't going to go to a townhall meeting because the street lights are out.

Having said that the group as a whole have tremendous community spirit and are generally active participants within their community.

One thing that struck me about a friend of mine from high school who had turned hipster in the ten years or so since I had last seen her was her dedication to her community. I wasn't entirely clear on the connection between it and the various other elements of her lifestyle, but she certainly saw local charity and community involvement as part and parcel of her larger identity.

Who would have gentrified Brooklyn/Portland/Oakland if not for the bearded white dudes with fixies and boutique fuzz pedals? It would have been some other group of white people with means because these are desirable places to live.

I agree with McCoy that artisanism and craft are really important to this generation for whatever reason, and that this is a good thing.

One thing that struck me about a friend of mine from high school who had turned hipster in the ten years or so since I had last seen her was her dedication to her community. I wasn't entirely clear on the connection between it and the various other elements of her lifestyle, but she certainly saw local charity and community involvement as part and parcel of her larger identity

About a month or two ago one of my friends convinced me to come out to Meridian Park in DC on a Sunday. I live two blocks away and have never been inside the park. Anyway, on the weekends in the summer apparently they have a djembe drum line going on and a bunch of people show up. What I found at the park kind of amazed me and made me think about urban living 15 to 20 years ago and how much it has changed. Inside the park was about 30 to 40 people on drums or on other various instruments playing away together. There was at least 5 different groups of people slacklining, several groups practicing and sparring martial arts, a few people tossing a football around, several people on unicycles, and lots of people out having picnics and enjoying the day. I never saw anything like this 20 years ago. We had no sense of community involvement or doing things within a community back then.

I think the problem about arguing about hipsters is that the definition is either so broad as to be meaningless or so narrow as to be meaningless.

Oh, sure. Which makes it more interesting to me - it's this thing people mention about without having much common basis beyond cultural signifiers. A prolonged, if ridiculous, conversation can give rise to something closer to a shared sense of what that identity is.

I'm white, I currently don't live somewhere urban but more or less have been my entire life and definitely will be again soon, the majority of my life is centered around alternative music, I have a "non-mainstream" fashion sensibility (I'm actually, like, into fashion), I always vote for Democrats but consider myself to the left of all of them so essentially alternative politics, am a big foodie and like cooking a lot and with good ingredients and have been to a fast food place at most 20 times in my life, and I hope to make money in an artistic field so sure, "alternative lifestyle," and I'm not rich but certainly comfortably middle class. I fit on every single dang count and proud of it. There are a lot of problems with "hispter culture," mostly in my mind political contributing to gentrification, oblivious to their privilege, etc. But those are things they're rarely made fun of, and if it's an excuse they mostly have good intentions and are unaware of those criticisms the things they ARE made fun of, for having eclectic tastes and "buying local" and having alternative political views, are all actually really important things, in my view. The world would be more boring without hipsters and you know it.

Hmm. Very little of your description of yourself would make me think you're a hipster. Actually being into fashion is pretty anti-hipster (unless you're only into fashion so you can avoid wearing fashionable clothing). And caring about sports seems super-anti-hipster to me.

I guess I don't fully agree with this list that everyone's been using:

1. White - I mean, yes, hipsters are almost always white, but the majority of all people are white; I wouldn't include this as a criterion2. Urban - hipsters are mostly, but not exclusively urban; "non-rural" is probably a better description3. Indie/alt music - yes, this is certainly a hipster characteristic4. Non-mainstream fashion sensibility - I'd say it's more anti-fashion, as noted above; as soon as a look becomes too popular, hipsters generally drop it5. 3rd party political views - yes, but it's more that hipsters are against anything that's popular; I wouldn't include politics as its own entry here6. Organic foods - yep, that's a hipster staple7. Alternative lifestyles - I think this is a self-proclaimed hipster thing, but I'm not sure it's actually true in practice; most seem to be pretty normal underneath the surface, in terms of dating and families8. Affluent? - compared to true poverty, sure; but for the more standard "affluence", like living in a really nice apartment/condo/house or owning nice things, no way

Being into fashion doesn't really mean being into high fashion or brand new clothes or anything like that. It really means being conscious of what you're wearing and why you're wearing it and doing so for more than convenience or economic sake. Meaning you wear some printed wife beater tee with 80's era lime green shorts, and 70's era brown flip flops not because that is all you have or can afford but because you personally picked these items out, obtained them, and now wear them because that's your "thing". Most hipsters I know are hyper aware of their clothing, their fashion, and what people around them are wearing. It is almost like they get a boy scout badge if they find something that others think is unique or new or if they can spot something unique or new on someone else.

I think the problem about arguing about hipsters is that the definition is either so broad as to be meaningless or so narrow as to be meaningless.

To me, the defining characteristic is actively avoiding anything that is culturally popular, solely because it's popular.

That's probably a bit too broad, but it's the only way I have thought of to describe it without getting too specific. And getting too specific is problematic, because hipster trends move quickly (they end up driving the popularity of things, then have to abandon them).

Not only the hat, but also the tights, the shoes, the cutesy ukulele music, the overly close relationship with her cat and even worse a girl trying to do math! (Fake geek girl?) My three year old daughter is hipster for similar reasons.

On the topics of parks in urban areas, I live downtown in big city and I think the park/library/children's museum culture and social circle has been great for my daughter, it forces her to meet all kinds of different kids from all kinds of different backgrounds and gets her to interact and play them and gets her doing activities she might be not doing otherwise. I am a little worried about the schools when she gets a little older though.

But that's the essence of fashion isn't it? Being fashionable is being at the cutting edge of, and in some sense shaping, what is "in", not lagging a few months behind the trend.

Not really. I'd say what you're describing, Greg, is people who are trying to be at the front of the popularity curve; that is, they want what they're wearing today to be popular tomorrow. Hipsters don't want what they're wearing to be popular.

However, that, along with McCoy's #92:

Being into fashion [...] really means being conscious of what you're wearing and why you're wearing it and doing so for more than convenience or economic sake.

does make me rethink the "into fashion" part of my post. Hipsters would definitely be "into fashion", but not the GQ kind of fashion that more typical "into fashion" folks are.

but for the more standard "affluence", like living in a really nice apartment/condo/house or owning nice things, no way

The hipster doesn't live in a large or extravagant dwelling, but they pay enough in mortgage/rent to easily afford a huge house on a golf course if they were living in the suburbs of most AAA baseball-having Midwestern cities.

Politics - The hipster claims to not agree with either major party, but very likely votes democrat and never, ever votes republican.

The hipster doesn't live in a large or extravagant dwelling, but they pay enough in mortgage/rent to easily afford a huge house on a golf course if they were living in the suburbs of most AAA baseball-having Midwestern cities.

I'm not totally sure about that. Most hipsters I've encountered are solidly middle class, yes, but definitely don't have income levels high enough to live in the areas you describe. See, having a high-paying job is just too "mainstream"; hipsters work at fair trade coffee houses and tattoo parlors and independent theaters and so forth.