Because yeah, when I'm rappelling, I've used up all my slings on what, exactly?

Don't get me wrong, at least your purcel prussic is better than that POS, I mean PAS so many folks are carrying around. But both are not "needed" whatsoever in multipitch sport or trad.

GO

Who is talking about rappelling?

Anyone who claims to be a weight nazi should be. Aside from rappelling, the tie in rope is always the perfect thing to anchor in with, unless you've invented a weightless purcell prusic?

GO

Well if you think weight is my only consideration then you didn't read my posts very well. I trade the weight of some gear for the weight of other gear that offers me more benefit. I trade a couple slings for 3 ounces of cord that gives me more benefits than just using the rope does.

Which "couple of slings" is that? You're trading a purcell prussic for the *nothing* that I carry. You keep missing the point that you're simply carrying *extra* gear.

If it makes you happy, cool. But calling yourself a "weight nazi" is just kinda funny to me.

GO

Dude, try to follow the conversation. My comments about trading a couple slings for a purcell prusik were in comparing my system to someone else's not yours, mkay?

And you arenít carrying *nothing*. Youíre carrying extra length of rope to clove hitch in with. You didnít need it on the pitch, did you? Well you should chop it off and only carry the amount of rope you need then, because I guarantee you my cord weighs less than that extra rope youíre lugging around all over the place. Haha!

And I've already said, weight is not the only factor, if it were we would all just be free-soloing all the time. There is a cost/benefit. For the cost of 3 ounces I receive a bunch of benefits that I've already listed.

It is the sum of all factors that is important. What is the least amount of gear, that gives me the highest amount of flexibility, in the broadest of circumstances? For me, that is my rig, hands down.

And those 3 ounces make it easy for me to use a very lightweight rope system, and not have to bring a second rope or a dedicated rap cord for full length rappels, so clearly, Iím a better weight nazi than you. ;)

...you arenít carrying *nothing*. Youíre carrying extra length of rope to clove hitch in with. You didnít need it on the pitch, did you? Well you should chop it off and only carry the amount of rope you need then, because I guarantee you my cord weighs less than that extra rope youíre lugging around all over the place. Haha!

...so clearly, Iím a BIGGER RETARD nazi than you. ;)

I'm trying to understand your argument about the extra rope... Please explain more clearly. Do you have a rope that is the absolute length of every climb you do? No one is actually talking about having extra rope attached to them. Its quite the contrary. On the other hand you have the same amount of rope, all the draws you needed, cams, AND the addition of a PAS.

Your PAS is an ACCESSORY, that adds weight and bulk.

Besides all that ridiculousness... you know the rope is only as heavy as the length from the belayer to your harness, plus drag, whilst climbing. Unless you are doing something incredibly wrong.

If you are, then please share your bulk and weight saving techniques that add bulk and weight. I'd like to snicker a bunch more.

As an interesting aside, a thread came up a while ago on the Taco that asked about the worth of just plain cutting off the belay loop. That's right, just hacking it off.

Posters like Werner Braun advocated leaving it on as a convenience, but stated they preferred to clip into both parts of a harness to belay.

I am sure this will set off major triggers in the gym crowd, as well as those that believe there is only one correct way to do things. Bottom line is that there are as many ways to things as there are climbers. I, for one, also prefer to have my locking biner clipped through both tie-in points because it orients the belay device in a zone and orientation that best fits me being able to use it. I believe this to be a huge reason to maintain the status quo.

I pay enough attention to the locker during this process that it will not be crossloaded during a fall. It is far more inconvenient to have my ATC 6" away from my harness.

I learned this way, it is hard wired, it is how I will continue to operate. In 31 years, I have never dropped anyone, ever.

I don't bring other elements into the equation to tie off. I am already tied into a rope, and likely packing left-over slings. If you can't figure out how to safely transition with either of those, then I can recommend a killer top rope instructor operating out of Devil's Lake who would love your money.

These systems have a long standing history of safety. It is only because of internet hand wringing, n00b input, and the occasional anchor failure by those who never should have posted (reference internet hand wringing) that all of these systems have become necessary.

Do whatever makes you feel confident. Make sure that your belayer/belayee feels the same way. Don't bring unnecessary gear.

Huh? This whole thread has been about attachments to the anchor! Or are you going to tell me that you've been arguing about using your purcell prussic itself as an anchor, now? Like, instead of a cordelette or whatever?

ďI don't use slings to anchor when I get to the end of a pitch, I use the rope. So I still can arrive at the belay without slingsĒ

I assume he uses something to rig the primary anchor. If he has no slings itís either the rope or some specialized rig. He said he uses the rope, but l probably misread that. But now that you mention it, in desperate situations, under certain conditions, my rig could be used to rig the primary anchor. Yet another benefit!

But this isnít material to the discussion, sooooooo, your point?

cracklover wrote:

Hmm... okay - I get to belay, and I either: 1 - clove hitch rope to anchor, adjust (if I'm going to be within four feet of the anchor) or 2 - clip rope through locking biner on the anchor, walk/climb back to where I'm belaying, clove hitch to locker on my belay loop (if I'm five to thirty feet from the anchor.)

Wow! Somebody constructs an anchor for you ahead of time that you just clip right in to? Thatís way cool, dude! Youíre right, your system is way easier and way faster than mine! I sure wish I had some of them magic anchors like you do! Iím not so lucky. I usually have to place gear, get my weight off the rope, rig the anchor, tie and clip the rope to the master point, etc.

cracklover wrote:

And, again, no extra gear.

Except that extra length of rope your hauling, which is heavier than my rig, you weight libertine.

cracklover wrote:

Okay. Since you and your second are both at the anchor, and there are tons of slings, I don't know why you need a separate piece of gear just to trade ends of the rope. But sure, if it makes you happy, that's cool. Not even relevant for my climbing, though. If I lead in blocks, I usually just have the second reflake the rope(s) from their end as I grab gear off their harness.

Making 2 biner clips is easier and faster (and more secure in the dark) than clove hitching 2 ropes. Especially at a hanging belay where I will need to get my weight off the rope. And 2 ropes means I would need to clove into 2 biners. Already itís more complex, cluttered, and has more possibility for fuck-up than my rig. The moment Iíve clipped my rig into a piece to get my weight off the rope so I can rig the anchor, Iím already ahead of the clove-hitch-the-rope-game, and the ease and convenience just keeps on a-flowin from there.

Not all belays stations are conducive to flaking. Some of them can be quite awkward once the second gets there, and if Iíve already got the ropes in a decent stack there is no point in restacking them when in an awkward place (especially if time is critical), itís much easier just to switch ends.

cracklover wrote:

You don't have nearly the adjustability I do. See above.

ďIt is the sum of all factors that is important. What is the least amount of gear, that gives me the highest amount of flexibility, in the broadest of circumstances? For me, that is my rig, hands down.Ē

99% of the time my rig provides all the adjustability I need. I wouldnít trade away all its benefits for that rare occasion that itís not long enough.

Summary: Iím saving tons of weight with my twins, 9-10 pounds less than dragging another single rope. 3 ounces of cord make my whole system easier, faster, and more convenient. Itís an easy decision.

Summary: Itís easy to continue to follow my own broken logic versus, trying to understand the ease and practicality of other systems .

Blah, Blah, no one cares anymore dooder. Find a resources for building anchors, and pay special attention to the sections regarding attaching oneself to the anchor. God forbid you find a resource written before the introduction of a PAS.

Except that extra length of rope your hauling, which is heavier than my rig, you weight libertine.

All right, you've said this a couple times. Are you saying that because you are not using the rope to anchor in that what you would have used just disappears? Or did you cut it off? Are you climbing on a 59m rope?

...you arenít carrying *nothing*. Youíre carrying extra length of rope to clove hitch in with. You didnít need it on the pitch, did you? Well you should chop it off and only carry the amount of rope you need then, because I guarantee you my cord weighs less than that extra rope youíre lugging around all over the place. Haha!

...so clearly, Iím a BIGGER RETARD nazi than you. ;)

I'm trying to understand your argument about the extra rope... Please explain more clearly. Do you have a rope that is the absolute length of every climb you do? No one is actually talking about having extra rope attached to them. Its quite the contrary. On the other hand you have the same amount of rope, all the draws you needed, cams, AND the addition of a PAS.

Your PAS is an ACCESSORY, that adds weight and bulk.

Besides all that ridiculousness... you know the rope is only as heavy as the length from the belayer to your harness, plus drag, whilst climbing. Unless you are doing something incredibly wrong.

If you are, then please share your bulk and weight saving techniques that add bulk and weight. I'd like to snicker a bunch more.

Summary: Itís easy to continue to follow my own broken logic versus, trying to understand the ease and practicality of other systems .

Blah, Blah, no one cares anymore dooder. Find a resources for building anchors, and pay special attention to the sections regarding attaching oneself to the anchor. God forbid you find a resource written before the introduction of a PAS.

You're an idiot.

I've been climbing longer than you've been alive, and in that time I've used every anchoring technique known to man, and way more than even your Mom.

I've found that my system works the best for me for multi-pitching on twin ropes. You don't have to like it, but you do have to suk it, n00b.

My next couple of kernmantles were also 150s. Then 165s came along and wow, that was like (fingers and toes, brother, fingers and toes), um, 15 extra feet!

Why that was enough to use the rope at the end of each 150' pitch to rig a belay! Wow!

Fast forward many years and 180s showed up. Now we could send those 165' pitches and STILL HAVE SOME ROPE LEFT! TO RIG THE BELAY!!!111111

Then 200s showed up. GODDAMN ROPES ARE HEAVY THESE DAYS!

So now we have enough cord left over from those 180 foot pitches rig the belay, yee hah!

Now I see climbers are maintaining 70 meter ropes are the way to go, even 80! EIGHTY FUCKING METERS! That's like... a lot of feet man!

I was telling my pard last weekend, that for trad, I totally prefer a 180 rope over a 200. For sport, other way around (of course).

For simulclimbing I like a 165 or even a 150.

Sorry for mixing measuring systems btw.

DMT

Funny, isn't it Dingus, that the young-uns learn one way and lock in?

I will be most certainly turf food in 30 years, but would love to get on the Verizon After Lyfe plan so I can laugh as they realize that us old fokks might actually have had something worthwhile to say...

Except that extra length of rope your hauling, which is heavier than my rig, you weight libertine.

All right, you've said this a couple times. Are you saying that because you are not using the rope to anchor in that what you would have used just disappears? Or did you cut it off? Are you climbing on a 59m rope?

Look, I don't care if you use a PAS, but don't make shit up.

Josh

Well it was a joke. But I can still argue the point, because I'm all logicy, and stuff.

The argument was made that I am carrying an extra 3 ounces of weight by not using the rope to tie in to the anchor. In other words, carrying stuff that has only a single, specialized purpose.

Well, if you have no means to tie into the anchor, other than the rope, then you are also carrying something that serves only a single, specialized purpose - that 4-8 feet of rope (which is way heavier than my rig).

Me? I can use every inch of my 200 foot twins on the pitch, and I have done that once in a while (even had to use some of the ropeís stretch a few times). If you use the rope to tie in then you are constrained by your system from ever ever using the full length of the rope on the climb itself. Sooooo, if you are a weight nazi, and you are only ever going to climb 180 foot pitches, you might as well chop off that 4-8 feet and go with a system that is lighter (like mine).

Does any of this really matter? Fuck no. I was merely pointing out the utter ridiculousness of someone trying to mock my weight naziness over 3 ounces, when ounce for ounce the actual usable length/weight ratio of their system is inferior to mine. Donít go telling me Iím carrying extra weight, when my twin rope system with my super sweet rig offers me the best benefit/weight ratio for the situations under which I frequently climb.

And that ainít makin shit up. Them are facts, Jack.

This discussion makes me wonder how often any of you guys use twins, on multipitch, and block leading, if ever.

Honest question for all the non dedicated sling users on this thread. What do you do when you are leading in blocks/not swapping leads?

If you're careful about how you flip or restack your ropes it's not a problem. All the belayer has to do is grab the rope behind the clove and put you on belay then you unclove and go.

Are people still really arguing about using PAS/Daisy's and the rope? It takes about one second longer to tie a clove hitch and half the time to find the rope to tie it with. Thus faster than a sling. It's a safer attachment to the anchor. The rope will absorb some impact that a static sling will not. The clove has more adjustability. Wanna go take pictures of your second through the crux but you can't do it tethered there with a four foot sling? That's why you use a clove which can be adjusted through the entire length of the rope, plus when you trip like a clod the rope will absorb the impact and possibly keep you from ripping your anchor out of the wall. It's very easy to find your rope to tie a clove hitch and if you practice just a teensy bit you can do it easily in the dark, you can even do it one handed.

As for belaying through your tie in points, are the people who do that more comfortable taking the additional risk of crossloading and unscrewing the locking mechanism than having the belay device sit farther away? It seems like unnecessary risks to me for the sake of what seems like minimal comfort.

The double belay loops are not for safety, they are for convince on aid climbs and big walls. I have two PASís for a couple of reasons. The first reason, I need two when aid climbing. Having two is part of basic aid climbing technique (at least it is how I do it). You need one attached to each aider incase you fall, that way you donít loose your aiders. Also itís not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls youíre done for. If your leader takes a big fall youíre going to get pulled up to the limit of the reach of your daisy (i.e. the daisy will be stopping you from being pulled any higher). Itís possible for your biner to fail if this happens as the biner can get wedged in the hanger and the hanger can rip through the gate. Itís a bit hard to visualize but trust me itís possible.

We'll trust you about as much as we ever do when you talk about aspects of climbing you know nothing about.

The double belay loops are not for safety, they are for convince on aid climbs and big walls. I have two PASís for a couple of reasons. The first reason, I need two when aid climbing. Having two is part of basic aid climbing technique (at least it is how I do it). You need one attached to each aider incase you fall, that way you donít loose your aiders. Also itís not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls youíre done for. If your leader takes a big fall youíre going to get pulled up to the limit of the reach of your daisy (i.e. the daisy will be stopping you from being pulled any higher). Itís possible for your biner to fail if this happens as the biner can get wedged in the hanger and the hanger can rip through the gate. Itís a bit hard to visualize but trust me itís possible.

We'll trust you about as much as we ever do when you talk about aspects of climbing you know nothing about.

Jay

Your right, you caught me. The double belay loops are not for convince, I made that up. Hanging 2k feet off the ground off a single point of failure system is actually a great idea. Using two daisy chains in aid climbing is completely unheard of. When ascending a fixed line its cool to only be tied into one ascender with one PAS and nothing else. I am glad you have so much experience in aid and big wall techniques that you can set me in my place.

No I am not an aid expert but I know the basics. But it doesnít even matter as none of this has anything to do with aid. The advantages of two belay loops and two PAS's extend beyond just aid climbing.

I personally find it amazing that many experienced climbers don't realize the benefits of the PAS, but you prolly don't do much aid climbing or multi-pitch.

You are right about the aid... maybe for aiding it has practical applications, but for climbing, and multipitch trad climbing, which I've done enough of to know a thing or two about not dragging along extra worthless shit, its even less practical.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Be amazed, but to assume that I don't do much multi-pitch climbing, because I haven't been won over by the PAS hype that you've been sold on, is disingenuous to my technical skill set.

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

I clip in with slings or draws. Gear I used while going up that multipitch, with less clutter on my harness. But that's just me. I see why people like the PAS, I just don't care for it. I do think it would be better if it was made out of nylon.

I like the PAS for that reason too(although at the Gunks, "multiple raps" means....2.

But I have seen the few times a partner had tied in with rope and had to switch out for the rappel. Not a big deal, of course, but for myself, I would rather have the PAS(or sling clip-in) off the bat. At least on the pitches where I know I would be rapping from.

The one thing I simply see as truly embarrassing, is when someone runs the PAS or knotted sling(or worse a set of them) from the front of their harness, under their crotch, and to some connection on the back of their harness. Call me a prude - I just don't like drawing attention to "that" part of my body. Or maybe more aptly, if someone is looking at that part of my body, I don't want it to be because I have a *SlingThong* wedgie....

Guys - Imagine taking a screwed up whip and having that thing snag on a tree branch on the way down..... YEOWCH!

The sling thong is actually the best way to keep it out of the way of your gear loops. Which if you're actually leading stuff, is kind of nice.

I personally find it amazing that many experienced climbers don't realize the benefits of the PAS, but you prolly don't do much aid climbing or multi-pitch.

You are right about the aid... maybe for aiding it has practical applications, but for climbing, and multipitch trad climbing, which I've done enough of to know a thing or two about not dragging along extra worthless shit, its even less practical.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Be amazed, but to assume that I don't do much multi-pitch climbing, because I haven't been won over by the PAS hype that you've been sold on, is disingenuous to my technical skill set.

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

I have this thing called a "runner." Some call it a sling. Its clipped to my harness with 2 biners already on it. When I need to anchor in at a rap station, one end goes to the anchor, the other to my harness, clip clip!.

Its a beautiful thing!

I'd be happy to make you a demo video if you think it will help!

DMT

Where can I get one of these runners? I went to REI and all they have is slings.

I personally find it amazing that many experienced climbers don't realize the benefits of the PAS, but you prolly don't do much aid climbing or multi-pitch.

You are right about the aid... maybe for aiding it has practical applications, but for climbing, and multipitch trad climbing, which I've done enough of to know a thing or two about not dragging along extra worthless shit, its even less practical.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Be amazed, but to assume that I don't do much multi-pitch climbing, because I haven't been won over by the PAS hype that you've been sold on, is disingenuous to my technical skill set.

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

I have this thing called a "runner." Some call it a sling. Its clipped to my harness with 2 biners already on it. When I need to anchor in at a rap station, one end goes to the anchor, the other to my harness, clip clip!.

Its a beautiful thing!

I'd be happy to make you a demo video if you think it will help!

DMT

Where can I get one of these runners? I went to REI and all they have is slings.

Its an EU thing - can only get them at the flagship REI in London these days.

Well, if you have no means to tie into the anchor, other than the rope, then you are also carrying something that serves only a single, specialized purpose - that 4-8 feet of rope (which is way heavier than my rig).

huh? if you and I climb the same pitch, and I tie in with the rope, and you tie in with a PAS, then how is it that I'm carrying more? Cause, like, this isn't making any sense.

The double belay loops are not for safety, they are for convince on aid climbs and big walls. I have two PASís for a couple of reasons. The first reason, I need two when aid climbing. Having two is part of basic aid climbing technique (at least it is how I do it). You need one attached to each aider incase you fall, that way you donít loose your aiders. Also itís not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls youíre done for. If your leader takes a big fall youíre going to get pulled up to the limit of the reach of your daisy (i.e. the daisy will be stopping you from being pulled any higher). Itís possible for your biner to fail if this happens as the biner can get wedged in the hanger and the hanger can rip through the gate. Itís a bit hard to visualize but trust me itís possible.

We'll trust you about as much as we ever do when you talk about aspects of climbing you know nothing about.

Jay

Good catch. That is a lot of misinformation in one paragraph.

I figure he is at least a big wall pro. Read this post, he says "next big wall". Not first.

Well, if you have no means to tie into the anchor, other than the rope, then you are also carrying something that serves only a single, specialized purpose - that 4-8 feet of rope (which is way heavier than my rig).

huh? if you and I climb the same pitch, and I tie in with the rope, and you tie in with a PAS, then how is it that I'm carrying more? Cause, like, this isn't making any sense.

Or, T0

Because Pedro is so bad at making sense, I will try to explain. His point, at least I think, is that his system allows him to use twin ropes instead of bringing up a second rope for rappels, thus saving weight. However, I may be completely mistaken.