Maybe Cap 2 has no actual villain. The cast and crew keep putting emphasis on the fact that "nothing is black or white" so maybe there isn't a villain and TWS, Crossbones and possibly Aleksander Pierce are antagonists.

I'm just differentiating between a villain and an antagonist (even if you don't see a difference). Because people are speculating that Robert Redford is somebody from the comics like RS or Lukin or Zemo. I suggested that maybe he's just Aleksander Pierce and he uses his power for morally ambiguous purposes (which may involve TWS). He doesn't necessarily have to be a supervillain.

__________________"That's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men.... cruel."

__________________Beliefs - Christian. Anti-Republican. Anti-Gun. Complete separation of church and state. Freedom of speech. Freedom to practice any religion in public. Less focus on foreign lands and more focus on our own problems.

I'm just differentiating between a villain and an antagonist (even if you don't see a difference). Because people are speculating that Robert Redford is somebody from the comics like RS or Lukin or Zemo. I suggested that maybe he's just Aleksander Pierce and he uses his power for morally ambiguous purposes (which may involve TWS). He doesn't necessarily have to be a supervillain.

IA that Redford could be an antagonist as opposed to a villain.

But I also think there is going to be a villain, RR or not. Not having a tangible villain is way too risky, especially for a superhero movie. I think Marvel will play this safe and give us someone concrete to root against, although hopefully we'll get some twists along the way.

But I also think there is going to be a villain, RR or not. Not having a tangible villain is way too risky, especially for a superhero movie. I think Marvel will play this safe and give us someone concrete to root against, although hopefully we'll get some twists along the way.

So? People always complain that Marvel plays it too safe. Plus I'm afraid the movie may be too bloated.

__________________"That's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men.... cruel."

I'm just differentiating between a villain and an antagonist (even if you don't see a difference). Because people are speculating that Robert Redford is somebody from the comics like RS or Lukin or Zemo. I suggested that maybe he's just Aleksander Pierce and he uses his power for morally ambiguous purposes (which may involve TWS). He doesn't necessarily have to be a supervillain.

For that to work, Pierce would've had to have been involved in the recovery of Bucky's body in 1945.

Whoever "made" Winter Soldier made him, or at least started making him, immediately after his apparent death in the train attack. Unlike Cap, Bucky didn't have the luxury of laying around like a Capsicle waiting for somebody to thaw him out.

And again, that points to the most likely suspect(s) being HYDRA, since Bucky went down behind enemy lines in HYDRA territory. Plus, they were the ones who had been experimenting on him a few years prior.

Well, that's my point. They do play it safe. It's served them well so far. I don't think they're going to change that.

IM3 didn't, and it didn't affect the box office.

A fair point. I don't discount the possibility of a less tangible villain. I just think it's a lot less likely. On that point we may just have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

And again, that points to the most likely suspect(s) being HYDRA, since Bucky went down behind enemy lines in HYDRA territory. Plus, they were the ones who had been experimenting on him a few years prior.

Winter Soldier is HYDRA's toy.

Much as I would like to see a Russian angle, these are very good points.

A fair point. I don't discount the possibility of a less tangible villain. I just think it's a lot less likely. On that point we may just have to agree to disagree.

Much as I would like to see a Russian angle, these are very good points.

Well, even with HYDRA pulling Bucky's strings, I still wouldn't rule out a Soviet connection. After WWII, any remnants of HYDRA would've needed a new fascist nation in which to flourish, and Stalin/Khruschev's Russia seems a suitable place for them to regroup. Plus, WS still has that red star on his arm.

Well, even with HYDRA pulling Bucky's strings, I still wouldn't rule out a Soviet connection. After WWII, any remnants of HYDRA would've needed a new fascist nation in which to flourish, and Stalin/Khruschev's Russia seems a suitable place for them to regroup. Plus, WS still has that red star on his arm.

I've been wondering that too. HYDRA may have done the initial work, but a lot can happen in 60+ years of political upheaval. I wonder if it might have fragmented and/or shifted it's alliances.

Plus, even in the comics, Luskin was selling off the goodies in his Soviet cache that he inherited (IIRC Red Skull wanted to buy WS but Lukin's pricetag was too high), so I think it's possible WS has been passed around.

For that to work, Pierce would've had to have been involved in the recovery of Bucky's body in 1945.

Whoever "made" Winter Soldier made him, or at least started making him, immediately after his apparent death in the train attack. Unlike Cap, Bucky didn't have the luxury of laying around like a Capsicle waiting for somebody to thaw him out.

And again, that points to the most likely suspect(s) being HYDRA, since Bucky went down behind enemy lines in HYDRA territory. Plus, they were the ones who had been experimenting on him a few years prior.

Consider this about Zola: Not only was he the person conducting experiments on Bucky in that Hydra base, he was also on the train when Bucky fell so he knew exactly where to find the soldier. We have to assume that Zola somehow either escaped Allied custody after the war or was released and then hooked up with fragments of HYDRA and recovered Bucky. Perhaps Zola was able to communicate with his HYDRA contacts even while he was in custody and had Bucky hidden away until he could get out. Then he could have taken control of the Winter Soldier and done whatever he wanted with him.

As far as Pierce is concerned, I'm willing to bet that he's either a HYDRA commander or Soviet agent who infiltrated SHIELD years ago, possibly by killing the real Pierce and taking his place.

__________________"It’s something that’s easy to take for granted, growing up in the United States as a white male, that my cinematic heroes look like me...It’s something that over the course of these ten years, having a certain amount of power over what type of movies are made and what type of actors we hire, I want everybody to have that feeling. We don’t take it for granted that people want to see themselves reflected in our heroes and our characters." ~ Kevin Feige

Consider this about Zola: Not only was he the person conducting experiments on Bucky in that Hydra base, he was also on the train when Bucky fell so he knew exactly where to find the soldier. We have to assume that Zola somehow either escaped Allied custody after the war or was released and then hooked up with fragments of HYDRA and recovered Bucky. Perhaps Zola was able to communicate with his HYDRA contacts even while he was in custody and had Bucky hidden away until he could get out. Then he could have taken control of the Winter Soldier and done whatever he wanted with him.

As far as Pierce is concerned, I'm willing to bet that he's either a HYDRA commander or Soviet agent who infiltrated SHIELD years ago, possibly by killing the real Pierce and taking his place.

Zola didn't look like someone who takes the initiative. If the Winter Soldier is indeed his work, it's probably because someone else (either HYDRA remnants or the Soviets) ordered him to do it.

Granted, WWII-era Zola looked like just a flunky for Red Skull. But a lot happens to him by the end of that movie, and undoubtedly, a lot happens to him in the years leading up to present day. He's probably got motivation now to change.

The way I look at it is that Arnim Zola was a mad genius before WWII, and Red Skull bullied him into being his *****. Zola dutifully mass-produced a whole arsenal of extremely advanced weaponry for him until his capture by the SSR. Now that Skull is gone, and assuming Zola escapes/defects or whatever from the US, he's now free to be the mad scientist he always wanted to be.