I'm just a bit upset. I have a hard time giving a penalty for intent. Who's to say that someone dropped in a flatter area, or an area where it is less likely to roll into a divot. If they don't say they were intentionally doing so, they get away with it. Then again, why have any rule where you get 1 or 2 club lengths? Just determine closest spot and always drop there. I'll bet ever pro when dropping after going into a water hazard, has been trying yo get a good lie for there next shot, not just dropping as close as they could to last spot. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly!

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

And a divot is forward of the ball, so no pro should be dropping in their divot.

And you'd ask your opponent to re-drop if you didn't think he was making a good faith effort to drop "as nearly as possible."

It's really that simple. There's no distance specified because there's no distance specified.

And 1 or 2 clublengths could be enough to put the player in the fairway instead of the rough, or out from behind a tree, so that's the reason THAT will not be adopted.

Erik- your divots may always be in front of your ball, but some players hit behind the ball. In fact, this is so common, there is even a word for it- FAT.

So what if 1 or 2 club lengths improves the players position? Remember, THE PLAYER HAS ALREADY BEEN PENALIZED STROKE AND DISTANCE. Why does he have to be forced to play from his divot (on a fat shot) or from behind a tree.

In terms of trying to protect the player who doesn't know where he hit from by making the rule vague (as close as possible), they could still do that by saying something like within 1 club length of what is believed to be the original spot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

If you believe they have identified the wrong location, you can challenge them about it or bring it up with the committee. They have to be making a bona fide effort to identify the location and drop on it. If you have information that can help them identify the location correctly, you should assist them by providing that information. But they have the right to make their own reasonable determination, even if they make an error. There's no other practical way to solve the problem---at some point you have to rely on the integrity of the players.

This was already covered, at least in one case, but you get 1 or 2 club lengths of freedom when the "closest spot" is impractical for some reason. When you're returning to the location of your previous stroke, by definition you already determined that it was reasonable to attempt a stroke from that location, so you don't automatically get leeway.

Yes you have to rely on player integrity in some situations, but I think it is better to do this as little as possible- that is one reason why you have referees and rules officials in most competitive sports. Why have to call a guy who appears to intentionally drop 6 inches behind his divot and/or why should a guy who is a more honest/accurate dropper have to play from his fat shot divot?

Most other rules allow for 1 or 2 club lengths (even when it may let a player move away from a tree or onto the fairway) so why not have the same here?

FWIW, the original rules of golf were much less complex (13 rules on 1 page) and were much more liberal when taking a drop from a water hazard-

5. If your Ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball & bringing it behind the hazard and Teeing it, you may play it with any Club and allow your Adversary a Stroke for so getting out your Ball.

Erik- your divots may always be in front of your ball, but some players hit behind the ball. In fact, this is so common, there is even a word for it- FAT.

You just reminded me that this is even true of pros. Remember Jim Furyk earlier in the day on the same hole as Tiger:

(Please ignore the conspiracy theory comments on the video, its not mine) But Jim clearly hits behind the ball here, hence the splashdown. So if he was dropping "as nearly as possible" to his original spot, he should technically be aiming for the back edge of his divot.

Of course, he would never choose that option, and I doubt anybody would, expect in Tiger's unique situation where the ball deflects into the water. Here, since he hits it straight into the water, obviously, he can use the "line between flag and ball crossing into hazard" option to help him find a perfect lie.

But, it does show, for the record, that not every shot ends with a divot in front of the ball ... especially ones that result in the player having to take a penalty.

The website is pretty user friendly and if you look around you can probably find it. But at the bottom of every post, there are a few buttons. "Multi," "Quote," and "Reply." If you want to quote somebody, just hit quote, and their comment will appear in the edit box and you start typing beneath it. If you want to quote a few people, just keep hitting multi until you get to the last one you want to quote, and then hit quote. You can also just keep hitting quote but they'll pop up in a different order.

I'm just a bit upset. I have a hard time giving a penalty for intent. Who's to say that someone dropped in a flatter area, or an area where it is less likely to roll into a divot. If they don't say they were intentionally doing so, they get away with it. Then again, why have any rule where you get 1 or 2 club lengths? Just determine closest spot and always drop there. I'll bet ever pro when dropping after going into a water hazard, has been trying yo get a good lie for there next shot, not just dropping as close as they could to last spot. But that's just my opinion.

Golf is a game of integrity. If you're so inclined there are often many opportunities per round to gain an unfair advantage, this potentially being one of them.

If a player intentionally drops one club length from where they know they should be dropping under this rule then they're cheating. And while cheats might get away with it for a little while, it tends to catch up with them in time.

No woods on those Colorado courses? They tend to collect their share of golf balls!

I'm sure you know, but for those that don't, remember that a lost ball (other than in a water hazard) results in the same stroke and distance penalty as OB.

Believe it or not in the city not many courses have wooded areas, lots of older park style courses and the newer ones tend to be faux links designs. Courses with OB that can be reached without hitting it off the planet tend to wind through housing developments, the OB is someone's yard.

But go onto the mountains and you'll find all the trees you want. Even in the beetle kill areas it rapidly becomes grassy and brushy, in many cases more hazardous than the forest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anauthor

Bkuehn1952,

Well said. Rule needs changing to 2 club lengths. Will be interested in how long usga will let it slide.

Yeah, a really long time. Don't hold your breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Nah. The rule currently protects people who don't know exactly where they played their last shot. What's two clublengths from a spot you can't precisely locate?

We were talking about a spot that we know. You just hit a shot O.B. and there is a divot hole marking the spot precisely from where you last hit a shot. Why do you insist on talking about an altogether different scenario where for whatever reason one does not know the location (you went forward thinking the ball was in play, you did not make a mark on the turf, etc ...)?

When you hit into a lateral water hazard from 200 yards out, does anyone really know where the ball last crossed the hazard line? No, unless someone is standing on top of the shot or there is video replay. Yet we still get 2 club lengths from the spot we estimate was the point where the ball crossed into the hazard. In almost every case it is an estimate. So what is your point about "two club lengths from a spot you can't precisely locate"? We do it every day.

You are trying to add unnecessary complexity to a simple rule. Half the time people here are complaining that the rules are too complicated, but you want to change the procedure depending on how close the original spot can be determined. This opens a can of worms that nobody wants. What do you do for the guys who don't take a divot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

When you hit into a lateral water hazard from 200 yards out, does anyone really know where the ball last crossed the hazard line? No, unless someone is standing on top of the shot or there is video replay. Yet we still get 2 club lengths from the spot we estimate was the point where the ball crossed into the hazard. In almost every case it is an estimate. So what is your point about "two club lengths from a spot you can't precisely locate"? We do it every day.

Because dropping on the hazard line is going to end up with a lot of balls bouncing back into the hazard, and 50% of the time leave the golfer standing in the hazard.

When replaying your last shot, you try your best to replay is as closely as possible. If you had a tree right in front of you, then replay that shot but with two club lengths and suddenly there's no tree in front of you and you're in the fairway. How is that replaying your last shot?

Also you are already being assessed a penalty for hitting into the hazard, so the rules give a break of an additional clublength. This is consistent throughout the rules. If the player is entitled to relief without penalty, he gets to find the nearest point of complete relief from the condition, then one additional clublength. If he is taking relief under a penalty clause which allows two clublengths, then he is allowed that 2 clublengths from a specific spot, but complete relief is not assured.

If he is taking relief under a penalty clause which allows two clublengths, then he is allowed that 2 clublengths from a specific spot, but complete relief is not assured.

You know I find that this rule is the one people least understand. They automatically think that dropping under the unplayable lie rule (Rule 28) that they automatically get full relief. The one time in my life I have had to call someone on breaking a rule it was this one. Several years ago some guy I was in a tournament with hit his ball into a cactus. He took an unplayable lie and decided to use the Two Club Lengths option. When he dropped his ball it hit a rock and rolled back into the cactus. He proceeded to grab the ball and re-drop saying he didn't get relief. I had to be the bearer of bad news that he did not get a free drop the second time and since he didn't mark the ball when he picked it up to re-drop, he also incurred a penalty under Rule 20-1 for improper drop. It ended up costing him 3 strokes, one for each unplayable lie and one for improper drop. And of course, he acted like I was the bad guy.

When he dropped his ball it hit a rock and rolled back into the cactus. He proceeded to grab the ball and re-drop saying he didn't get relief. I had to be the bearer of bad news that he did not get a free drop the second time and since he didn't mark the ball when he picked it up to re-drop, he also incurred a penalty under Rule 20-1 for improper drop. It ended up costing him 3 strokes, one for each unplayable lie and one for improper drop. And of course, he acted like I was the bad guy.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you cost him an unwarranted penalty stroke. There is no requirement to mark your ball for a drop---unless he actually dropped further than two strokes from the spot where his ball lay, there was no penalty. Picking up your ball for a drop is not "lifting" as described by 20-1.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you cost him an unwarranted penalty stroke. There is no requirement to mark your ball for a drop---unless he actually dropped further than two strokes from the spot where his ball lay, there was no penalty. Picking up your ball for a drop is not "lifting" as described by 20-1.

I cannot find that on the USGA but I did on the R&A that its not mandatory but advised. I learn something every day. Didn't matter with the guy anyway he was about 20 over when it occurred.

I cannot find that on the USGA but I did on the R&A that its not mandatory but advised. I learn something every day. Didn't matter with the guy anyway he was about 20 over when it occurred.

That's why we hang out here. They ought to clarify rule 20-1 IMO, since "lifted" is a technical term in that case but is easily mistaken for picking up your ball in general. In any case, it certainly is advised, so in any case your error probably taught him a useful lesson.

I misread the rule when checking it, overlooking the "before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced." Since I know you're not required to mark for dropping, in my private little fantasy world, that means that picking it up for a drop must not be "lifting" since you don't have to mark it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you cost him an unwarranted penalty stroke. There is no requirement to mark your ball for a drop---unless he actually dropped further than two strokes from the spot where his ball lay, there was no penalty. Picking up your ball for a drop is not "lifting" as described by 20-1.

I cannot find that on the USGA but I did on the R&A that its not mandatory but advised. I learn something every day. Didn't matter with the guy anyway he was about 20 over when it occurred.

It's only mandatory when following a rule requiring the ball to be replaced. It's advisable under other lifting situations.

Okay, here's a situation for tiger. He hits in the water, and this time, he actually tries to drop as close as possible. He is hitting from a downhill lie. So let's say the slope and speed of the fairway is such that when he drops the ball, it lands and rolls closer to the hole. He drops again, and this time it lands an inch closer to the hole that his original shot. Does he drop a third time, or place the ball where it landed, an inch closer to the green than he hit his first shot. Or place the ball as close as possible to where he dropped it, but no closer to the hole? If the second drop doesn't count, how many times can he try to drop the ball? 3,4,5,6... Let's say it is super windy, can he drop and take how far he thinks the wind will blow his ball before it hits the ground? I know I'm venting. I'ts only because I would really like this rule changed. I know that if you get to move the ball 2 club lengths, you can get away from trees, bad lies, and the like. But you've already got hit by a 2 shot penalty. All I care about is, it would still be fair for everyone. And would iliminate what the player was thinking. Consider this my final vent on the issue. Thanks for listening!

It's only mandatory when following a rule requiring the ball to be replaced. It's advisable under other lifting situations.

Hi Rick,

R20-1 covers lifting and marking. It basically covers two things, who can lift the ball (doesn't say only for a ball to be replaced ) and you have to mark the position first if you are required to replace. I thought the first part (who can lift) would cover balls that are to be dropped as well. For example, an opponent, who without authorization from a player, lifts the player's ball from an obstruction, the opponent would incur a one stroke penalty. With authorization, there would be no penalty. Are we saying if the player was going to drop, the opponent does not need authorization?

Okay, here's a situation for tiger. He hits in the water, and this time, he actually tries to drop as close as possible. He is hitting from a downhill lie. So let's say the slope and speed of the fairway is such that when he drops the ball, it lands and rolls closer to the hole. He drops again, and this time it lands an inch closer to the hole that his original shot. Does he drop a third time, or place the ball where it landed, an inch closer to the green than he hit his first shot. Or place the ball as close as possible to where he dropped it, but no closer to the hole? If the second drop doesn't count, how many times can he try to drop the ball? 3,4,5,6... Let's say it is super windy, can he drop and take how far he thinks the wind will blow his ball before it hits the ground? I know I'm venting. I'ts only because I would really like this rule changed. I know that if you get to move the ball 2 club lengths, you can get away from trees, bad lies, and the like. But you've already got hit by a 2 shot penalty. All I care about is, it would still be fair for everyone. And would iliminate what the player was thinking. Consider this my final vent on the issue. Thanks for listening!

The second drop does not count, it did not hit the course in the correct area. He must continue to drop until he hits the correct area on the course a second time. Once it strikes the course within the correct area a second time, he's done dropping. If it rolls closer to the hole again, or anywhere else that would require a redrop under 20-2c, the player would then place the ball where it correctly struck the ground the second time.