First They Come for the Muslims

Posted on Apr 16, 2012

“Their support of MEK is far worse than any of the pre-emptive prosecution cases,” Downs said. “They are literally engaged in material support for terrorism. But of course they’re not being prosecuted. ... The whole thing is a game. It’s not serious law enforcement. It is political posturing. This will bring the law into contempt. It will bring the mechanisms of prosecution into contempt and eventually it will destroy the legal system.”

“Justice is now justice for corporations,” he went on. “Anybody who interferes with the corporations, who interferes with their profits, who interferes with their rights, will become labeled ‘terrorists.’ They become people we need to get rid of. Judges, politicians and lawyers all feed at the same corporate trough. And that is why their decisions increasingly are corporate decisions.”

Downs holds out a faint hope that it may be possible to force the Justice Department to turn over exculpatory evidence—evidence of a defendant’s innocence that by law the prosecution must disclose to the defendant but an obligation that the prosecutors frequently ignore. He said he is certain there is exculpatory evidence in government vaults that could free many of those pre-emptively prosecuted. Government prosecutors, however, do not willing sabotage their own cases by turning over evidence that would exonerate those they seek to condemn. Downs knows it is a quixotic fight, but he is working to get the undisclosed exculpatory evidence in pre-emptive prosecution cases released to defense lawyers.

“That’s my one hope of getting these guys out of jail—I don’t see any other way,” he said.

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The corruption in the judiciary, Downs argues, is so pervasive that it is probably irreversible in the short run. Already dissidents such as peace activists, environmentalists and outspoken intellectuals have been treated as terrorists. Downs expects soon to see labor organizers and those in Occupy encampments treated as terrorists, especially if domestic dissent spreads. Yet despite his pessimism he has no intention of surrendering.

“I take comfort from organizations like the White Rose in Germany,” he said, referring to the anti-Nazi group that defied Hitler and saw most of its members arrested and executed. “They were doomed almost from the beginning. How long could you defy Hitler before you were rounded up and shot? It appeared to be a futile effort. And yet, after the war, when people went back and began to rebuild the German nation, they could look to the White Rose as an example of what German culture was really about. There were Germans who cared about peace, freedom and tolerance. I’m working now as much for the historical record as for those still in jail.”

“When I was 6,” Mehanna told the court Thursday at his sentencing, “I began putting together a massive collection of comic books. Batman implanted a concept in my mind, introduced me to a paradigm as to how the world is set up: that there are oppressors, there are the oppressed, and there are those who step up to defend the oppressed. This resonated with me so much that throughout the rest of my childhood I gravitated towards any book that reflected that paradigm—‘Uncle Tom’s Cabin,’ ‘The Autobiography of Malcolm X,’ and I even saw an ethical dimension to ‘The Catcher in the Rye.’ ”

“By the time I began high school and took a real history class, I was learning just how real that paradigm is in the world,” he went on. “I learned about the Native Americans and what befell them at the hands of European settlers. I learned about how the descendants of those European settlers were in turn oppressed under the tyranny of King George III. I read about Paul Revere, Tom Paine, and how Americans began an armed insurgency against British forces—an insurgency we now celebrate as the American Revolutionary War. As a kid I even went on school field trips just blocks away from where we sit now. I learned about Harriet Tubman, Nat Turner, John Brown, and the fight against slavery in this country. I learned about Emma Goldman, Eugene Debs and the struggles of the labor unions, working class and poor. I learned about Anne Frank, the Nazis, and how they persecuted minorities and imprisoned dissidents. I learned about Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and the civil rights struggle. I learned about Ho Chi Minh, and how the Vietnamese fought for decades to liberate themselves from one invader after another. I learned about Nelson Mandela and the fight against apartheid in South Africa. Everything I learned in those years confirmed what I was beginning to learn when I was 6: that throughout history, there has been a constant struggle between the oppressed and their oppressors. With each struggle I learned about, I found myself consistently siding with the oppressed, and consistently respecting those who stepped up to defend them—regardless of nationality, regardless of religion. And I never threw my class notes away. As I stand here speaking, they are in a neat pile in my bedroom closet at home.”

“In your eyes, I’m a terrorist, and it’s perfectly reasonable that I be standing here in an orange jumpsuit,” he told the court at the end of his statement. “But one day, America will change and people will recognize this day for what it is. They will look at how hundreds of thousands of Muslims were killed and maimed by the U.S. military in foreign countries, yet somehow I’m the one going to prison for ‘conspiring to kill and maim’ in those countries—because I support the mujahedeen defending those people. They will look back on how the government spent millions of dollars to imprison me as a ‘terrorist,’ yet if we were to somehow bring Abeer al-Janabi back to life in the moment she was being gang-raped by your soldiers, to put her on that witness stand and ask her who the ‘terrorists’ are, she sure wouldn’t be pointing at me.”

OZ—- there must be some way to say that a mentally and morally defective
person such as Mehanna ( who everyone here would condemn as a total scumbag
if he was a Christian fundie) can be defended by nice progressive folks .... and
....just like OJ Simpson was an innocent man crushed under the weight of
oppression of black people.

From Tarek’s sentencing statement:“When I refused to become an informant, the government responded by charging me with the “crime” of supporting the mujahideen fighting the occupation of Muslim countries around the world. Or as they like to call them, “terrorists.” I wasn’t born in a Muslim country, though. I was born and raised right here in America and this angers many people: how is it that I can be an American and believe the things I believe, take the positions I take? Everything a man is exposed to in his environment becomes an ingredient that shapes his outlook, and I’m no different. So, in more ways than one, it’s because of America that I am who I am.

There is no anger in Tarek Mehanna Michael. Tarek is a willow, swaying with the ill-fated wind that has come his way.

Yes a correct quote but before I amended it to the militant part of it. You can be fundamentalist an yet not be political or violent. However who else but the Fundamentalist would turn to violence if they know they are right an so they will? Now things change if you are being attacked by an outside enemy like the USA. Then anyone would pick up a gun or even support groups they ordinarily wouldn’t do to circumstances an desperation.

So Ozark Michael do you see that we started that war an that they are just retaliating? Or is there something that I an others are missing here?

Shame on you OzarkMichael. You have exposed yourself as a Right Winger who believes that the people are here for exploitation by the powerful.

I have been here a long time. From day one I have been honest about what I am, and I have never said or intended or approved that “the people are here for exploitation by the powerful”.

Instead of baseless accusations, try to defend the cognitive dissonance between “Fundamentalism Kills” and “First They Came for the Muslims”.

Here is elisalouisa supporting “Fundamentalism Kills”:

This is a feather in Mr. Hedges’ hat.

and

By elisalouisa, August 18, 2011 at 1:14 am

A willow tree sways as compared to an oak tree which is rigid, breaking when a strong wind blows.

There is no slack in Fundamentalism nor is it a stream which can divert, finding another way.

elisalouiosa supported “Fundamentalism Kills”, and opined that there is no slack in Fundamentalism, it cant find anouther way. Tarek Mehanna is an Islamic Fundamentalist, where is her condemnation of Fundamentalism now?

Here is Night-Gaunt:

By Night-Gaunt, July 28, 2011 at 12:33 pm

Fundamentalism is when you believe everything you know is 100% right and that everyone else must believe it too, or else.

Where is Night Gaunt’s condemnation of Tarek Mehanna, an Islamic Fundamentalist who knew he was 100% right, and everyone else must believe it too… or else!

or else… Doesnt that sounds ominous?

As for Leefeller, his only objection to “Fundamentalism Kills” was that Hedges added Hitchens and Harris to the condemned religious Fundamentalists.

By Leefeller, July 26, 2011 at 1:02 pm

...
Hedges felonious, unwarranted, outrageous and delusional attack on Hitchens and Harris seems to me, both insulting to the authors named above and no less divisive then Tea Baggery to this reader.

Tarek Mehanna is not an atheist so Leefeller cant stand up for him. Tarek Mehanna is an Islamic Fundamentalist.

I want to know how all of you could support the Chris Hedges “Fundamentalism Kills” charge before… but leave it go now.

Yes your retort was just a mindless reflex, not thought just automatic defense. An yet you are all for Islamic Fundamentalism as dangerous? How do the two stay in your mind when they are contradictory? Oh yes the compartmental ability of the human mind to hold many impossible things in their minds an still operate. No facts just reflex from you since you are a Fundamentalist. But you need to be more than that don’t you? You also have to be militant too, wanting to use any means to get your point across. So you need to apend that to militant Islamic Fundamentalists just like the militant Christian Fundamentalists who kill doctors, plant bombs an make laws that only hurt Planned Parenthood clinics to run them out of business. Would you agree or do you support the bombers too? Since they are on the rise in the USA while Islamic related ones are fading. Except for the ones the FBI creates.

As I recall Ozark Michael you vehemently disagreed with the idea the “fundamentalism kills” in fact you retorted by saying that “Atheism kills” in response. What changed you?

No change here. My retort was merely hurling the chains back at you so you might learn to stop forging them for me. I am not the one who believes in that crap. You are. Why dont you answer for it?

Again, whether you like it or not, one way or the other, we will all be equal. I suppose I sound a bit like Jacob Marley with the ‘chains’ metaphor, except I am not warning about punishment in the afterlife.

“Mr. Instructor: The inadvertent lesson here is how very dangerous Evangelicals are.”

Yes Elisalouisa, such as Rod Parsley who claimed that God put him on this earth to eridicate Islam. And Sarah Palin who claimed that God approved of the war against Iraq.

And OzarkMichael is the kind of person who would vote for those two and endorse the person who claimed that the soldiers who raped the 14 year old Abeer and murdered her and her family ought to get a pat on the back and an endorsement of a “job well done.”

These are the enablers of those who have seized our Government.

Shame on you OzarkMichael. You have exposed yourself as a Right Winger who believes that the people are here for exploitation by the powerful.

As I recall Ozark Michael you vehemently disagreed with the idea the “fundamentalism kills” in fact you retorted by saying that “Atheism kills” in response. What changed you? Or are you the same an it is only Islamic Fundamentalists who take up arms are killers? Though in our own country a cabal of Christian Fundamentalists both in an out of gov’t have closed down clinics either by assassination, bombing or pernicious laws designed to close them down. But then they are on the upswing while any Islamic based attacks are way down. Why don’t you rail against them?

Suppose Tarek Mehanna made videos to recruit people to bomb abortion clinics or kill an abortion doctor? And then suppose that Tarek Mehanna lied to the FBI about their whereabouts?

You would immediately say Tarek Mehanna was GUILTY of whatever crime the recruited bomber/killer committed. You would demand he be held accountable for recruitment and for lying to the FBI. I would say he was guilty too. If he was a ‘Christian Fundamentalist’, you would absolutely demand he pay the price.

How do i know that? Well, I dont forget the things you wrote before. Long after you have forgotten I still remember.

Remember Chris Hedges’ article “Fundamentalism Kills”? In your posts there you heartily applauded Hedges’ demand for unseverable justice, which meant you accepted the concept of blood-guilt-by-association which Chris Hedges spoon fed you. You insisted on Christian Fundamentalist blood-guilt even though Christian Fundamentalists had NOTHING to do with Brievik. I tried to turn you away from your prosecutorial zeal but I failed. “GUILTY” was your verdict.

I want to remind you that Tarek Mehanna is an ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST, and most importantly he has a hell of a lot more to do al Qaida than American Christian Fundamentalists had to do with Brievik. For you Leftists who supported “Fundamentalism Kills”, the simple fact that Tarek Mehanna is a self professed Islamic Fundamentalist should be enough for you(not me) to be very suspicious of him.

So I have a question. Whatever happened to the Chris Hedges who wrote “Fundamentalism Kills”? He melted? He vanished?

Whatever happened to you Leftists who insisted that “Fundamentalism Kills”? Why arent you howling for Tarek Mehanna to be held responsible for every Jihadi who was encouraged by his writings and his video productions and his recruitment? Whatever happened to your strict sense of blood-guilt-by-association? It melted. It vanished.

What happened?

I will tell you what happened. First, we are talking about an Islamic Fundamentalist instead of a Christian Fundamentalist. Second, we are talking about a man who can appeal to all your Leftist grievences instead of Conservative grievances. Those are the two differences. Tarek Mehanna makes a nice Leftist speech and it is enough for you to completely ignore his guilt proven in a court of law.

That is how you create two tiers of humanity. You have a strict standard of justice for me and my kind, but a completely lax standard of justice for yourself and your kind. You want maximum freedom for yourself to influence events. The same freedom for me and my kind? Not so much. You want to limit how I can speak and act, encircling me with blood-guilt. This is why I say that you are forging chains for me.

God help us all if you guys ever attain power. I warned you countless times before, and I warn you again: There is only one humanity, and because of that fact there will eventually be only one standard after you come to power. It will not be maximum freedom for you. No, instead you will end up ‘enjoying’ only the freedom which you grant to me… which is to say not much freedom at all.

Now I expose your double standard and your hypocrisy. I hurl the chains that you forge for me right back in your face. I do it vehemently so that you might break out of your prejudice. I know that it makes me unpopular but if you become more fair about this now, perhaps you wont have to live with those chains yourself later.

...successfully prosecuting those who raise the alarm of the immorality of what we have allowed our Nation to become, squelching dissent, because they have a legion of disciples who have elected a self chosen delusion, deluded people like OzarkMichael, who refuse to admit the clear evidence that what Tarek Mehanna stated, is the truth. Truth proven indisputably by history

I am going to teach you something.

An intelligent person who is on trial will not talk about the evil things he did. Instead, he will appeal to everyone gullible enough to help him. The Islamic Fundamentalist, Tarek Mehanna, appeals to you. Chris Hedges amplified that appeal. And too many otherwise intelligent Leftists follow Hedges over a cliff like a bunch of lemmings.

Yes, Tarek Mehanna’s courtroom speech was brilliant. It contained ‘the truth’ about the world according to Leftists, not much about his own Islamic Fundamentalism. That was very clever. Personally I was not impressed with his Howard Zinn impersonation but I did rather like the Batman part. No matter.

Even if Tarek Mehanna included more truths like “the earth is round!” in his speech, what difference does it make? He could have said “and all men are created equal!” and “abortion is a national travesty”...certainly that would appeal to me but it doesnt prove his innocence.

Did the Islamic Fundamentalist Tarek Mehanna recruit for al Qaida? Yes he did. He is GUILTY.

Did Tarek Mehanna lie to the FBI when they asked him if he knew where his recruit, a real Jihadi terrorist was? Yes, Tarek lied. He is GUILTY.

Tarek Mehanna can give a great speech about how merciful Allah is, or how angry he is that a girl got raped. Its all very rightious sounding, but he is still GUILTY.

Tarek Mehanna can expound on ‘America is so evil’ with Howard Zinn flair until all the Leftist lemmings drool in adoration and demand his release, but he is still GUILTY.

That the Government of the United States of America, and by that I mean the War Mongers, the Financial Cabal nee Corporatist, the profaned Religion of exclusivity, in other words those who wield the power over the people of America, can murder and terrorize the world, and the people of the United States , all the while propagandizing the victims as the aggressor, the terrorists, successfully prosecuting those who raise the alarm of the immorality of what we have allowed our Nation to become, squelching dissent, because they have a legion of disciples who have elected a self chosen delusion, deluded people like OzarkMichael, who refuse to admit the clear evidence that what Tarek Mehanna stated, is the truth. Truth proven indisputably by history.

OzarkMichael, did the Court prove that Tarek Mehanna took up arms against any American, plotted to bomb, shoot, destroy, maim any American on U S Soil? Did the Court prove that Tarek Mehanna took up arms against any American, plotted to bomb, shoot, destroy, maim any American on Foreign Soil?

No OzarkMichael, they didn’t even try to prove that he had done this. They knew he was innocent of such. What they did do OzarkMichael , is convict him of speaking against the immoral policies of the people who run the United States for money, position, and power. And of this he pleads guilty.

Ozark Michael, I was speaking of the eloquence with which Tarek presented his argument to the court.

and

If you don’t go find and read his statement to the court, you will willfully miss a chance to really learn something important.

I read it the first day it was on the internet, so enough with your hand-wringing. No need to go on and on about it. You can print it out and frame it if you want to. Its a very good speech.

Yes, Mehanna is very effective because at all times and in all places Tarek Mehanna knows who his audience is and how to appeal to them. Yes, that is eloquence. Did I ever question that?

It takes a special person to effectively commit crimes while appearing to remain close to the boundary of legality. Yes, Tarek Mehanna is a genius. Did i ever say otherwise?

Its the same degree of eloquence and genius that he used to translate and disseminate and prosyletize for al Qaida. Tarek Mehanna is very effective. Did I ever question his effectiveness?

Lets not forget that Tarek Mehanna knew where active terrorists were and lied to the police about it. Yes, Tarek Mehanna knew just what the terrorist was up to, and as a genius Tarek Mehanna also knew the consequences of lying to the FBI. He thought that he was too smart to get caught.

He did it all for the cause. The cause of Islam? No, my friend, he did it all for the cause of Jihad. The cause of free speech? No, he used free speech as a shield because he found a way to aid Jihad from a distance. Until he got caught.

At some point he has to be held accountable. Even a genius who can count on the support of millions of Leftist lemmings has to be held accountable.

Tarek Mehanna was found guilty in a court of law. Guilty by unanimous decision by a jury. Guilty on all seven counts. That means his guilt is established, which when we talk about other things(like Roe v Wade) lends “SUPERB, BRILLIANT” proof of the morality and iron clad legality of the argument.

Ozark Michael, I was speaking of the eloquence with which Tarek presented his argument to the court.

Possibly you didn’t read his complete unabridged statement ( It is not in the Hedges Article) nor is it in complete form, in several other sites I went to. It however, can be found in the official court record which is available on the net. You can find it if you make an effort.

If for some reason it requires too much effort to find it, I will tell you that it is a little lengthy because Tarek Mehanna began with his childhood and stated why as an American born citizen, he during his growing to adulthood, adopted the Muslim Religion.

And along the way he compared the deceits and murderous actions of the United States in its history, to the words he spoke in favor of the Muslim suffering by the hands of American Empire today and Colonialism of the present Power that has been fostered on Muslim people. He portrayed with great eloquence the Morality double standard used by the West against Muslims, those actions Tarek presented and compared with American behavior during that concurrent span of time.

If you don’t go find and read his statement to the court, you will willfully miss a chance to really learn something important.

” Terrorist” are those that purposefully injure the innocent.

And that State sponsored terrorism is the most ungodly cruelty there is in existence.

Finally he states that if Abeer could somehow speak from the grave and was asked who is the terrorists, she would certainly identify the American soldiers who gang raped her, murdered her family including her 8 year old sister, by shooting them in the head, and after raping her, setting the bodies of her and her family on fire, yes she would readily identify those soldiers as the terrorists.

So trite a response. You disagree, but instead of pointing our where I am wrong you simply say it. Poor tactics an practice of an armature with nothing to go on. Would expect better from you. Come back with the more pointed criticism. An examples too.I’m just going by the present examples.

When you have asymmetrical warfare the weakest always go for the stealth, an suicide attacks an behind enemy lines out of uniform warfare. It is logical an expected. An it caused untold problems for the more powerful but foreign forces in the home territories they have invaded. However it must be noted that AL-Quaida isn’t loved by many. In fact even in the hot bed of occupation by the US military in Iraq, the locals despised them an attacked them as much as they did any foreign soldier an local collaborator! Keep that in Ozark Michael when the “good guys” are the ones doing the invading an killing an raping an slaughtering. We don’t get to see it but the locals an everyone else sees it uncensored unlike here.

We are the bad ones here an need to stop invading, an killing marriage an funeral parties an anything else that moves in someone one else country. It would be nice if we closed down our growing external empire. The one that is using more robots an drones in more countries an also our own terrorist forces (USSOCOM) in 120 plus countries now. Like the Romans before us they lost their Republic but long before their Empire split an eventually fell hundreds of years later.

We run that same risk of losing what is left of our tatterdemalion republic to the oligarchs an religious fanatics in our own country.

Just think of the eloquence that is caged within someone that the Muslim denigration would silence, to keep the unknowing in the dark.

Here are some of Tarek Mehanna’s more eloquent attempts to make sure the unknowing arent kept in the dark:

“39 Ways to Serve and Participate in Jihad,”

“Guiding the Confused on the Permissibility of Killing the Prisoners.”

and who could forget Mehanna’s personal favorite, which he took great pains to translate and disseminate:

“Make Martyrdom What You Seek”

The objective, brilliant, highly intelligent journalist Chris Hedges apparently had no space to include those little tidbits in “First They Come for the Muslims.”

This is the same Tarek Mehanna who translated bin Laden’s recorded calls to arms into English subtitles, not that Chris hedges would include that fact. Nor this one: eventually al-Qaeda solicited Tarek Mehanna to translate works by Ayman al-Zawahri, after which Tarek Mehanna viewed himself as part of the media department of the terror group.

In spite of my repeated warnings you still uphold Tarek Mehanna as a fine example of Muslim Americans. You have followed Chris Hedges over a cliff like a bunch of lemmings!

If you want to insist that Tarek Mehanna represents every Muslim American, you must really hate America.

Tarek Mehanna loved bin Laden and considered him a “father”.

I shout my defiance against you “Do not denigrate American Muslims by saying that this evil villain is just like them!”

Stand up against Chris Hedges. Tell him you dont want him to uphold Tartek Mehanna as if he represents all Muslims. They are innocent. He is guilty.

I concur with the whole content of your last post addressed to me,especially the following two paragraphs deserve comments:

” The measure of the morality of a Nation is directly representative of how the most powerful of the Nation treat the least powerful of that Nation. “

My comment: The USA is,indeed,a great military power,but I would refrain from calling it a “great nation”. Such a describtion,“great nation”, cannot possibly be bestowed upon a country that has 40 million of its citizens who live in poverty and countless number of homeless human beings. That is a disgrace and an insult to me as a human being and a citizen

” Those who would profit from war,those who would eradicate a competing religion,those who would take sustenance from the needy-not because they need it,but simply because they have the power to do so-are not my friend,should not be your ideal and will never give you good governance.”

My comment: You have just hit the “jackpot”,Cliff,by the following operative or rather key words,as you have used them in your above paragraph.

Profit,wars,eradicate,competing,religion,the powerful and needy.

Cliff: Many thanks for such a genuine concern which I profoundly share. Much appreciated! Keep it up

Such a great post Sodium-Na, thank you. I had read Tarek’s statement somewhere and copied and posted on this thread his comment concerning Abeer and who if she were alive would she consider the terrorists to be.

Just think of the eloquence that is caged within someone that the Muslim denigration would silence, to keep the unknowing in the dark.

That statement should be required reading, not just for those studying history, but for every voter prior to casting their vote. If American voters would familiarize themselves what has been done to a concerned American citizen, simply for exercising his constitutional freedom of speech, and if they would realize this is exactly the direction that our immoral government is pushing us, then just possibly who they vote for, or not vote for, might change the course of this Nation.

The measure of the morality of a Nation is directly representative of how the most powerful of the Nation treat the least powerful of that Nation.

Those who would profit from war, those who would eradicate a competing religion, those who would take sustenance from the needy - not because they need it, but simply because they have the power to do so - are not your friend, should not be your ideal, and will never give you good Governance.

While reviewing the posts being published on this thread,I have been caught by a complete surprise to read the following post that was not there yesterday,April 19,but it was there as I found it on April 20. Its content,especially about the three Abrahamic religions,is worth repeating because that is what I have been after all of my adult life:

Quote
=======

By Free Thinker,April 19 at1:25 am.
(Unregistered commenter)

Well said Sodium-Na,Well said!

Your latest contributions are super and I find it necessary to complement you.

However,in the maze of the crude ideological positions expressed by fallible and egoistic human beings on these threads,the great truths about the sources of human civilisations,and particulary religion,get so obscured. By way of highlighting some of these truth,I would like to highlight the following points:

1. The Middle East is historically known as the cradle of human civilisations.

2. Moses,Jesus and Muhammad were all Semitic minds and souls who brought to humanity the basic laws of civilisation and decency intended to reform the backward and savage notions that existed in their societies.

3. The teaching of all religions are basically positive and edifying,however,the evil-doers who claim an association with a particular religion only represent their crooked selves and the religion itself should not be blamed for their ignorance.

4. Now for some humor: The Sun has always risen and will continue to rise from the East till the end of time,moving forward towards the west,something chauvinist and arrogant Westerners who think they got it all should pause to reflect upon;just imagine,if Easterners,by some magic or by a feat of technology,manage to stop the Sun from the moving to the West,then the whole West will perish in no time,and it wouldn’t just be a matter of Middle Eastern oil,but the most important source of energy and life.

Unquote
=========

Free Thinker,

EXCELLENT AND ELOQUENTLY EXPRESSED!

I am on the same wavelength with you,Free Thinker,whoever you are and wherever you have come from and whatever religion you adhere to,or no religion you adhere to.

And thank you for your kind words and another thank you for taking your time to write such a splendid post!

Please register with Truthdig so that your future posts will be published immediately after you click “Submit”.

Unfortunately,for unregistered posters,their posts have to go through moderation by a Truthdig moderator before they can be published.

By Julia Spitz/Daily News staff
MetroWest Daily News Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 12:51 AM“This is not over,’’ said Laila Murad, a member of the Tarek Mehanna Support Committee. “We will continue to fight for justice for Tarek and the countless others who have been imprisoned for their political beliefs, and we will expose the outrageous, vindictive practices of the FBI and the U.S. Attorney’s Office.’’
Yesterday’s sentencing hearing also showed a side of Mehanna that did not come out during the trial that lasted almost three months.“You’re a liar,’’ he shouted at Chakravarty when the prosecutor began to refute Mehanna’s allegations he was pressured to be an informant.
The morning’s twists and turns included defense attorney Janice Bassil asking the judge to allow a juror to speak on Mehanna’s behalf.“A juror approached us outside the courtroom this morning,’’ attorney J.W. Carney Jr. later said. “She said she didn’t think Tarek should spend another day in jail.’’But the judge denied the defense’s request, and the juror was not identified, so exactly how she views Mehanna is not known.

Can one prove Mehanna was asked to be an informant? Of course not, the Government is too smart for that. The fact that Mehanna refused to be a stool pigeon may be his most egregious crime. I can hear the FBI now, “look at what happened to Mehanna, cooperate or the same thing will happen to you.” A lesson to other seekers of Justice.

Thank you. And you’re welcome. Re 9/11 , yes I am familiar with virtually all photographic, video and printed evidence. And in my opinion, it is about as conclusive as can be. Also agree with your comment about Hitler, who was, as you note, an occultist. Also your comment about freedom of religion - but not freedom to legislate morality or personal spiritual views.

Sodium-Na:

Thanks. And I read some of your blog. Good stuff. And your piece on “jihad” is well stated. Bravo.

This is to let you know that I have no disagreement with the definitions of Jihad you have presented. In fact,it is,as a whole,similar to my understanding of Jihad,except mine embodies more than three definitions and no percentage was involved. If you have time,check mine out at:

Look for topic number,(11)The Meaning Of Jihad In Islam. It is part of 14 different topics about Islam,the head title of which is “Islam As Understood By An Agnostic.” The Agnostic is me. The whole series of the 14 topics has been written per requests of two electronic friends I have never met,and who wanted to learn more about Islam. I could not say no for such pleasant friends.

el—- simply positing that the evidence is all fake
and the charges all lies is what they teach us in 1L
is known as bullshitting…...I think if you actually
bother to look into it a bit, you’ll find that most
of what the government accusing the guy of doing
wasn’t even disputed by the defense and they merely
tried to place a different interpretation on the
criminality of the acts.

Of course, if you want to take the it to the level of
thinking that the jurors selected by both the
government and the defense team were dishonest, you
can do that as well.

Other folks would think that Mehanna’s case wasn’t
anything well-publicized and Mehanna himself wasn’t
enough of a threat to be worth the time and trouble
and expense in railroading, him being just a real
asshole and not much else.

Not that simple. Can evidence be contrived or fake? Of course. Proving it is another matter. As to the jury, who knows what went on there. Nothing would surprise me. The phrase “Masters of deceit” describes our U.S. government quite well.

Stephen F. Downs:“I was unprepared for the fact that the government would put together a case that was just one lie piled up on top of another lie,” Downs said. “And when you pointed it out to them they didn’t care. They didn’t refute it. They knew that it was a lie. The facts of most of these pre-emptive cases don’t support the charges. But the facts are irrelevant. The government has decided to target these people. It wants to take them down for ideological reasons.”

Would anyone really believe U. S. attorneys in such matters Michael? Perhaps those on the Right and far Right might which of course includes Evangelicals.
Considering the built-in bias of such factions it could not be otherwise.

Thank you for your Bravo! (Sorry for delay; I don’t hang out on TD; there’s not enough time in eternity.)

I was presenting the view of “psychology” and “first impressions” about the Towers, only. I assume you are aware of physical evidence of demolition, as well as many (I think over 100) testimonies of hearing explosions. But the phenomenon of simply being told that the Towers fell in about 13 secs due to a gravitational collapse and people believing it despite the videos, is incredible. It’s some form of social brainwashing, whatever you want to call it. You gotta admit that the “terrorists who hate our freedoms” (they’re being taken away anyway) are very clever. Actually, if push comes to shove, your rights are already kaput.

Other random comments (I’ve not been able to follow the thread too closely, pardon me):

I think Hitler was as much a Christian as Herr Karl Rove, instigator of “crossroads america” (sp?) or some such subtle suggestion. They are devious manipulators, with Hitler being more of an occultist, if I understand correctly.

Let Muslims in America follow Sharia if they want, but it should not be the law of the land. No religious mandates should. Let Christians follow the example of Christ, no problem; let Jews honor their long traditional heritage, no problem. Let Buddhists meditate, no problem. Civil society, however, should be set up with its secular laws independent from religious tenets, though perhaps endeavor to incorporate some mercy and compassion into the legal system. IMHO.

To repeat, the problem is that some non-muslims are trying to establish religious prejudices as the law of the land.

OZ- after reading through the top two counts, it’s pretty clear that the govt is
accusing Mehanna of being an asshole fanboy and propagandist for Al Qaeda and
of hanging around with people who might actually have done something more real
then did.
Hedges is of course full of shit in calling it a show trial, but the sentence is too
heavy

As one who has studied not only the Bible but also the Koran (and the Vedas, and most other spiritual texts), let me give the simple answer re the word “jihad,” which has three different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used.

It’s primary meaning - used in about 75% of cases in the Koran (which should properly be rendered “Qur’an”) - is “internal spiritual struggle”; i.e., the type of struggle that any person of any spiritual faith or belief system (Jews, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, what-have-you) undergoes during their life in an attempt to “perfect” themselves within the dogma, doctrine or strictures of their belief system.

The secondary meaning of “jihad” - used in about 20% of cases - is “holy war.” However, within this meaning are two “sub”-meanings, again dependent upon the context. One meaning is “historical” (i.e., with respect to the past), the other is “prophetic” (i.e., with respect to the future).

The third meaning of “jihad” - used in the remaining 5% of cases - is relatively obscure, and is best explained by a practicing Muslim.

Note also that much of what the fundamentalist imams preach does not come from the Qur’an itself, but from the Hadith and other non-Qur’anic writings.

Folks don’t know the difference between declaring a Jihad and declaring a Fatwa.

Rushdie was a dime a dozen hack until a Fatwa was declared against him for The Satanic verses (a folkcloric exercise in tedium). he made out like a bandit from that.

Now Israel has jumped on the bandwagon and declared a Fatwa against 84-yesr-old Nobel laureate Gunter Grass—for saying in a poem he wrote called What Must Be Said that Israel was the biggest threat to world peace because of its bellicose aims against Iran.

Advocates violence? Just what the hell do you think the US has done in the Middle East? The US obviously advocates violence so how the hell can anyone, who is also guilty, try to pin that label on someone else. Oh, I get it…if it is someone who we can single out, who isn’t on our side of every issue, advocates violence then we must think of them as worthy of immediate termination. We can, hypocritically, lash out against others who do exactly the same things as we have done and will likely continue to do. And our own beguiled citizen jingos can keep trying to hide our war criminal actions against civilians by using catch phrases like “collateral damage”. How do you think it would fit if those advocating the destruction of the WTC towers and part of the Pentagon on 911 would say that they were targeting their enemies..the Generals (CEOs and other top execs)in Americas continuing war against them…and saying that all those other civilians were just “collateral damage”?

Of course, I highly reject the “official conspiracy theory” and believe 911 was largely an inside job anyway. And I believe that the same conspirators who orchestrated 911 are continuing to ruin this country from within. It is high treason and warrants the citizens of this country to use whatever force is necessary to bring these criminals to justice.

” Sodium-Na once taught me that the word ‘Jihad’ has a different meaning to most Muslims. Well does it? or not? “

Good memory and a fair question,Ozark.

I have no quarrel with the comment quoted above of yours because it is true. In order to provide more support and hence more credibility,please recheck topic “(11) The Meaning Of Jihad In Islam”,on my website which I have been compelled to temporary pospone publishing my reviews on because of serious technical difficulty. In case you have lost the key to open my website,below is given the key for your convenience:

” Tarek Mehana was arrested and convicted for supporting what he calls “Jihad”,which by his definition is warfare and murder. Tarek Mehana’s definition of Jihad rather violent.”

Ozark,

Using the word,“rather”,in your comment above gives the notion that even deep down in your conscientious soul there is a touch of doubtfulness about the conviction. I am not here to defend Tarek Mehana. Not at all. That is not my job, but the job of his lawyers. What I am after,here,is to convey to you the following points:

(1) If Tareck Mehana has indeed advocated violence,as you have described,I want him to be hung by his BALLS,until he dies. Only prison term will not satisfy me.

(2) If Tarek Mehana accusations and eventual trial have been politically motivated,as some other respectable writers have written,then and only then I want him to be exonerated by the court. I am after true JUSTICE,Ozark,and nothing else.

(3) My comments as I have outlined in (2) above is based on not only what Chris Hedges has written in his column entitled,” First They Come for the Muslims”,but also on two other reliable writers I trust. Both have written similar narratives as Hedges has written.

(4) Based on (3) as has been outlined above,blaming Hedges alone for writing,or truthdig for publishing about Tarek Mehana’s innocene, without blaming the other writers who described the whole affair of Mehana as “politically motivated”,is simply wrong.Hence,I have to reject blaming Chris Hedges as he relentlessly tries hard to keep his readers,including me well informed.

Rest assured,Ozark,I am not here to argue with you as much as my intent is to provide you with a degree of assistance to help you navigate properly through a thorny case of either genuine legallity or political illegality.

I have taken my time to go through with you,on all of the above, because I truly want to have a degree of accommodation with you,unless of course I am living in a world of dreams full of “Fantazia” about you.

“These trials, where secrecy rules permit federal lawyers to prosecute people on “evidence” the defendants are not allowed to examine, are the harbinger of a corporate totalitarian state in which any form of dissent can be declared illegal. What the government did to Mehanna, and what it has done to hundreds of other innocent Muslims in this country over the last decade, it will eventually do to the rest of us.”

The methods used to convict Tarek Mehanna are the real issue here. Defendants are not allowed to examine evidence used to prosecute them of a crime. Is this not fascist? It is entirely possible that such methods could be used to “be rid of” Evangelical preachers and in the not too distant future Michael. Should this happen prejudice might stand in the way of some being aware of the injustice committed. In agreeing that such ways of the law are correct one’s bias becomes evident and a fascist nature manifests itself. Would some see it that way? Probably not.

What does Mr. Fish tell us Tarek Mehanna? Is Tarek Mehanna a knight in shining armor, a prisoner of his own making, a diabolical figure? Mystifying as ever Mr. Fish.

OzarkMichael types can’t benefit from truthful jests
either. On Point (sometimes here) and similar forums
reject the benefits of humor too. I’ve probably had
the equivalent wordage of the Old Testament deleted
(censored?)this year alone. No one can tell me the
Disneyesque name SealTeamSix is not funny. Here’s
some Keystone Cops assassinating OBL in 2011 after
he’s been
dead almost ten years. And the phrase “Our Troops”,
doesn’t that evoke derision! Here’s conquistadors
waving severed legs like a tourist to celebrate
their exploits. We are financing a dark comedy horror
military with our every paycheck against our will. We
send out the dregs of our underclass at a million per
head per year to conduct “counterinsurgency.” And if
you fully understood what counterinsurgency consists
of you would laugh your head off in repulsion. Nope,
I haven’t achieved concision yet. My words disappear
like chalkmarks in a rainstorm (thanks Joni Mitchell).
Maybe I just haven’t found my audience. You
dissenters are my crowd. I want you to giggle with
delight as Empire crumbles.This 4th of July, laugh out loud.
Oops, it’s the doorbell. Who’s those two tall guys in dark suits?

I’m criticizing our exemplary role model this
morning. In his over-solemnity Chris Hedges does our
Resistance a disservice. By Monday I hope he has
consulted with tricksters and jokers and stands ready
to ridicule the ludicrous National Security Apparatus
of our Empire. Julian Assange cracked a pretty good
gag this week by interviewing an Hezbollah figurehead
on RT, but that didn’t provide half the laugh of the
T-man (Secret Service) Johns in Cartegena. (What
Gringo, only $35 for two trips around the world!)
This same gang wants to parlay with Ted Nugent. Ted
says he’ll be in jail or dead after November 6th,
when Obama tops the charts. Their investigatory detail
is packing togs for a canned hunt along with
memorabilia for autographing.Viagra was thrown in at
the last moment because some dude speculated that
Nugent might hook them up with hyper-kinky Michigan
whores. (“And the Northern girls with the way they
kiss, they keep their boyfriends warm all night.”
Beachboys) Mehanna’s in jail for 17.5 years and Ted’s
the legal guardian of an under-aged teen. Mehanna is
worried about jail pork, and Ted is smiling like a
big cat, just swallowed a pheasant feathers and all.

Where’s the humor? Well you’d need the Mort Sahl
skills of Noam Chomsky for that. Concision is
today’s word boys and girls. When MSM calls for
concision, scream real loud. Jeff Greenfield lied. He
claimed concission is soundbites between
commercials.Concision means you’re in harmony with
the dictates of the powerful. Dick Clark and Chomsky
(born 1929 and 1928)were competing spin doctors,
believe it or not. Clark as MC dripped with concision,
while Chomsky plotted a collision course.

So what’s wrong with this picture? Mehanna did some
translation and critiqued government policy. Nugent
threatened a sitting President. Nugent has concision
that Mehanna does not.

Chris Hedges should realize that if we belittle and
humiliate Authority enough with our humor we can get
Tarek Mehanna exonerated and freed in as little as
one year. Ted Nugent can’t benefit from truthful
jests. Be glad Chris that Noam Chomsky yet lives
without Ryan Seacrest as a co-host.

Read the posts I have written here on this thread, I have not attacked Muslims at all.

Tarek Mehanna was arrested and convicted for supporting what he calls “Jihad”, which by his definition is warfare and murder. Tarek Mehanna’s definition of Jihad is rather violent. Sodium-Na once taught me that the word ‘Jihad’ has a very different meaning to most Muslims. Well does it? Or not?

The Leftist response is:

“First they came for Muslims!” which unfortuntely ties all Muslims to Mehanna’s evil definition of Jihad.

For me or anyone else to break the association that Hedges has forged and which Hedge’s admirers have thoughtlessly repeated… is a kindness to Muslims.

If you cannot recognize when i am being hekpful and nice, its no wonder that we dont get along. My kindness is doubled because I will continue to fight it out on this line while being called “fascist”. Oh but i do fight back against such accusations and that removes any evidence of my kindness from sight, but its still there…

Your latest contributions are super and I find it necessary to complement you!

However, in the maze of the crude ideological positions expressed by fallible and egoistic human beings on these threads, the great truths about the sources of human civilizations, and particularly religion, get so obscured. By way of highlighting some of these great truths, I would like to highlight the following points:

1. The Middle East is historically known as the cradle of human civilizations.

2. Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were all Semitic minds and souls who brought to humanity the basic laws of civilization and decency intended to reform the backward and savage notions that existed in their societies.

3. The teachings of all religions are basically positive and edifying, however, the evil-doers who claim an association with a particular religion only represent their crooked selves, and the religion itself should not be blamed for their ignorance.

4. Now for some humor! The Sun has always risen and will continue to rise from the East till the end of time, moving forward towards the West; something chauvinist and arrogant Westerners who think they got it all should pause to reflect upon! Just imagine, if Easterners, by some magic or by a feat of technology, manage to stop the Sun from the moving to the West, then the whole West will perish in no time, and it wouldn’t just be a matter of Middle Eastern oil, but the most important source of energy and life!

You cannot possibly be nice to Muslims and at the same time condemn harshly their religion and ridicule their Prophet. Sorry,Ozark,such claims do not hold water.

The exponents of Islamophobia from Robert Spencer to Pam Geller to Geert Wilder to the rest of their ilk that’s exactly what they claim,meaning they differenciate between Muslims and their “evil??” religion and their “warmongering?? Prophet.”

Shame on all of them and anyone who emulates their Islamophobia,hatred and bigotry against Islam and Muslims. Those people do not realize that they violate the core and spirit this country was founded on. They are one of the many divisive factors that contanimate the blogosphere and airwaves. That was part of the trends I was talking about in my earlier posts. If you believe in their ugly propaganda,that is your prerogative and I cannot do any thing about it. Only you who can!

The premise of the article is that Tarek Mehanna represents all Muslims.

The premise of the article is that the arrest and conviction of the evil Mehanna is the same as the arrest of innocent Jews in Nazi Germany.

Both assertions are totally false.

If Hedges and everyone else here wants to stick all Muslims in the same pot with the evil Mehanna(who took great pains to translate a book about the why and how of execute prisoners of Jihad!) then I am not the Islamophobe, you are.

“First they came for the Muslims”... what a crock this ‘fascism game’ is!

It is a kindness to Islam and Muslims everywhere to insist on the separation of Mehanna from them. He is a terrorist wanna-be and facilitator of Jihad executions and God knows what else. I am actually being nice to Muslims by demanding that you Leftists stop smearing innocent Muslims with Mehanna’s terrorist guilt.

Good points all. Re the last, yes, I suppose we are “marching in that direction” but I continue to believe we are not marching nearly as fast as some of the more hyperbolic here would suggest.

Re “Christians,” while I agree with virtually all of your comments, I would caution two things. First, no Christian is “perfect”; “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” The question is to what degree they at least make efforts to live pursuant to Jesus’ actual ministry, and whether they are humble enough to realize and repent when they don’t. In this regard, three critical phrases come to mind: “Judge not, lest ye be judged by equal measure”; “He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone”; “Take the log out of thine own eye before you take the splinter out of another’s.”

Second, “Christianity” includes forgiveness - even of those who do great wrong. In this regard, Matthew 5:44-46 comes to mind: “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?”

“But that is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That discussion is whether Hitler was a Christian - not only in any meaningful sense, but at all - or whether he simply “used” Christianity as a means to an end; i.e., that it was simply another “propaganda” tool. I maintain that it was the latter, based on my more than two-decade study of this very specific issue.”

Yes I agree. And that was my point. Hitler was no more a Christian than a good many of the Televangelists on TV are.

And those FAKE Christians propagandize for an agenda, profit, political persuasion, power, whatever their goal, brother it ain’t the Pearly Gates.

My wife is a very devout Christian and an invalid. Her church is DAYSTAR on Sunday’s with the other Religious Networks also on Sunday’s and the other days of the week.

Some I see on these Networks are really charlatans, others are very sincere.

She and I believe that if you are not a good Samaritan, if you cannot obey the commandments, if you practice the usury of False Prophecy, you can call yourself a Christian 24/7 and profess it loudly in public, but you are not a Christian.

Therefore to make sure I explain myself clearly:

Hitler was not a Christian. But he did represent himself as one to help gain and maintain control of a people desperate for something good to believe in. You probably know the German people suffered mightily after WWI at the hands of the Money changers and the War Profiteers.

The people of America today are suffering not nearly as bad as the Germans after WWI, but we are marching in that direction due to the greed of the Money Changers (International Financial Cabal and Corporatists) and the War Profiteers (Corporate War Machines and Armies) who are cheered on by the False Profits (Faux Christians)seeking to push this World into Armageddon.

Each of these three factions seek profit, political persuasion, or power as if they can take it with them to the grave.

Moonraven: This discussion is so pathetic—and I am not referring just to you and your technical definition horseshit, but to the entire thread—crammed with lunatics, trolls and folks who apparently have noplace else to go but here.

The only lunatic here is you Moonraven. Do your comments really add to this discussion? Do you research the subject at hand? Do you reflect on the comments made? It is you Moonraven who adds nothing to this interchange except perhaps the bile that you must exorcise from your being lest it utterly consume and destroy you.

There is no such thing as a private language, as language is a tool for communication.

Sorry to whip you with Wittgenstein, but that’s just the way it is.

Incidentally, it was Mussollini who made that technical definition you are poo-pooing. You know—the Italian fascist guy.

This discussion is so pathetic—and I am not referring just to you and your technical definition horseshit, but to the entire thread—crammed with lunatics, trolls and folks who apparently have noplace else to go but here.

I reject calling Maani or any other poster names. You are relatively new to this website.I have been posting here for,at least,the last six years and I know the old timers,from their posts,fairly well. Hence,let me help you out:

Although Maani is quite capable of responding to you,I ask him to forgive me in saying the following comments about him:

~ Maani is one of the old timers. I recall he and I had exchanged views occasionally in a constructive manner.

~ Maani has been one of the most knowledgeable posters I have encountered on Truthdig.

~ He is a Pastor who really cares for his fellow human beings. In many ways,he reminds me of my own 44 years old son who is an Ordained Minister who is also dedicating his life to help the poor.

~ Maani spends most of his time trying to help,as much as he humanly can,the Homeless.

~ When he has mentioned,in one of his post,the risk of falling into paranoia when dealing with fascism,I could not agree with him more. It is wise to be careful. Why provide the real fascists more clubs to torture you with,if you allow yourself to fall into paranoia?

~ When he ends his posts with the word “Peace”,I do believe he means it totally and completely.

In short,Maani is not your enemy.

Moonraven: How about refraining from name calling such as “ignorant Gringos” for a change,because it really serves no purpose,let alone a cause.

I regret the fact that you have interpreted my earlier post as a post whose content aimed at your Christian Evangelicals. I feel that I owe you an explanation:

My intent was all groups,ranging from already being bought politicians to bigoted politicians,ranging from KKK to the extreme Rightt Wingers in both main political parties,ranging from extreme religious fanatics to fanatic crooks in Wall Street,ranging from haters of having a black man in the White House to haters of Islam and Muslims,from haters of Jews to haters of poors and the most unfortunate amongst us, etc….

If you ask me whether or not your group is included,my answer is yes,it is included,because you are their representative here and as long as your obsession with Islam and Muslims is based on what you learn,(as scholarly knowledge?),from your visits to bigoted websites such as Atlas Shrug,I will continue to include you and your group with the rest of the groups who are the real divisive forces in this country. I must be honest with you,Ozark,to maintain self-respect and my personal resprct to you as a fellow human being.

It is obvious that your post meant me without mentioning my name. To implicitly accuse me of practicing “insinuations” is as wrong as committing forgery,especially if such an accusation comes from A LOVER OF CHRIST,A GOOD CHRISTIAN.

[“Resist we much!” and that is what I do here.]

And No Kidding!

Ozark: If you really think that you have an effective resistance,on this website,as your posts reveal,you are living,my son,in a dream world full of “Fantazia”,indeed.

Are we talking about the “technical” definition of “fascism” - which is the “marriage” of the political and corporate elements of a society - in which case the U.S. has been “fascist” for quite some time? Or are we talking about the practical, applicable, “real-life” type of fascism as seen in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy?

If the latter, then I maintain we are a far cry from that.

Night-Gaunt:

You are corect to bring up Britt’s 14 Characteristics; indeed, as you are well aware, I myself have noted many times on these boards that the U.S. is engaging in some, if not many, of those Characteristics, to one degree or another. But, again, there is a difference between “technical” aspects of fascism, and “real” practical fascism.

Are we “frogs in the pot” re fascism? Perhaps. But despite the hyperbole of some, we are simply not anywhere near it (yet).

Check the 14 points of Fascism an you will see we are far closer now than ever before since 1934. (Democrats an Republicans [right wingers] have put us there since 1980 an still going strong.) It is known that some people will call anything they don’t like “fascism” but this isn’t it. Or have you been sleeping through it?

The Left barely registers an the extremists among them are few an negligible an powerless. No threat from them at this time. But the Right are an they are eager to make us a back door theocracy an you get no freedom from them or the corporatists either.

These insinuations of fascism made by Leftists have been going on for so long that they have become cliche. Thats why we have plenty of folks like moon-raven who break out of the cliche and make direct accusations of fascism. Ever more strident, ever more divisive.

Its a free country so you can say what you like.

Just be aware that we who have to put up with your accusations are beginning to see where your accusations are meant to lead… and we arent interested in going there.

Anyone who knows me here on TD knows that I have made the following comment many a time: there are far too many Christians who wouldn’t know Jesus if He bit them on the ear. So I agree with you that all too many self-proclaimed Christians fall far short of even a reasonable fascimile of Christ-like behavior.

But that is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That discussion is whether Hitler was a Christian - not only in any meaningful sense, but at all - or whether he simply “used” Christianity as a means to an end; i.e., that it was simply another “propaganda” tool. I maintain that it was the latter, based on my more than two-decade study of this very specific issue.

But I thank you for pointing out the sad fact of Christianity: that it is badly misrepresented by too many who claim it.

Sodium-Na:

Good points all. I would caveat that caution is a good thing, but paranoia is not. If and when - and that is NOT yet - the “Niemoeller trend” appears, I will be the first to shout it from the rooftops. But despite this country’s clear move toward oligarchy or plutocracy - and even given the increasingly militarization of law enfrocement - I do not see anything resembling fascism appearing (yet).

The difference is that all those who claim to be Christian are not even close to being Christian.

I have written on here several times about my local area radio station that identifies itself as American Family Radio and “Christian Radio”. In fact it really is a 24/7 hate Democrats/support Republicans Radio station.

Once in a while it even has some program that is passed off as Religious but even then the theme is always Republicans good- Democrats evil.

” First they came for the communists,
and I did not speak out because I was not a
communist.

Then they came out for the trade unionists,
and I did not speak out because I was not a trade
unionist.

Then they came out for the Jews,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak out for me.”

End of Quote.

Although America’s Corporate State has not reached the horrible conditions under which Pastor Niemoller was facing during the Second Worls Two,there were/are ominous trends that could not be ignored. Unless the American people wake up and change the direction of the trends to more acceptable ones,one may find himself or herself saying similar regrets and possible agonies similar to that of Pastor Niemoller:

They first came for the Muslims,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Muslim.

Then they came out for the Jews,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came out for the Whisle-Blowers,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Wistle-Blower.

Then they came out for the Occupiers,
and I did not speak out because I was not an Occupier.

Then they came out for the Lefties,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Leftie.

Then they came out for the Atheists,
and I did not speak out because I was not an Atheist.

Then they came out for the Welfare recepients,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Welfare recepient.

Then they came out for the Food Stamp recepients,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Food Stamp recepient.

Then they came out for the Homeless,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Homeless.

Then they came out for the Homosexuals,
and I did not speak out because I was not a homosexual.

Then they came out for the Social Security recpients,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Social Security recepient.

Then they came out for the Medicare recepients
and I did not speak out because I was not a Medicare recepient.

Then they came out for the Dissenting Writers,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Dissenting Writer.

“Then they came out for me,
and there was no one left to speak out for me.”—————————————————————————-

I do hope that all of the above will never take place in the land of the free and the home of the brave,but hope is one thing and the reality on the ground makes one doubtful of his own hope.

You can say it until you are blue in the face, but it does not make it so. History is not on your side. As well, you have yet to explain how an alleged Christian:

-murdered 2 million Christians
-had plans to murder many more
-was dismantling the Protestant Church
-had NOTHING in common with Jesus or His teachings, and was in fact living a life COMPLETELY antithetical to it.

All of these are historical facts, available in literally a dozen or more books on and biographies of Hitler.

Continual reiteration of an insupportable claim does not make it any more supportable.

Chris Hedges keeps amazing me for his writings which have the capacity of bringing up the best of the best as well as the worst of the worst among his readers, depending on their natural depositions.

With the sober, free thinking, descent, informed, educated, and humanists he brings out the best of them as they comment approving, confirming and affirming what he says, as demonstrated by the many enlightened comments on this thread.

With the intoxicated, brainwashed, arrogant, ignorant, poorly educated, ideological fanatics, crude chauvinists, and backward reactionaries, he brings out the worst in them as they comment disapproving, contradicting and attacking him and what he stands for.

For this reason Chris Hedges should be awarded the highest award there is for his thought-provoking activism and human rights and truth-digging writings!

(At 11:05, April 17, 2012-Censored under my original name by Truthdig!)

“This DGE (Disguised Global Empire) which has captured and Occupied our former country is the seminal hidden cancerous tumor that is the proximate CAUSE all of the ‘symptom problems’ which the current Occupy movement is against, and will be the singular focus of the “Occupy Empire” movement as it
increases its accuracy on the real target of Empire itself. I challenge everyone in the Occupy movement to read the fabulously revealing book by Timothy Parsons, of Washington University in St. Louis, “The Rule of Empires: Those Who Built Them, Those Who Endured Them, and Why They Always Fall”.
While this book is on the leading-edge of analysis on the nature of Empires, Parson’s Chapter 7 specifically on the Nazi Empire’s semi-disguised occupation of “Vichy” France is “to die for’ in its comparison with the DGE that is currently occupying our former country (and others post-nation-state advanced former countries like; the UK, Germany, France, Israel, et al).”

I did purchase “The Rule of Empires: Those Who Built Them, Those Who Endured Them and Why They Always Fail” and among my readings was Chapter 7, ” France Under the Nazis” (I wholeheartedly agree with Alan MacDonald’s description of that chapter) and also Chapter 5, “Napoleonic Italy,” as I am the descendant of a French soldier in Napoleon’s Army who succumbed to the charms of an Italian maiden, choosing to make his home in that beautiful, fertile valley my ancestors have known since time eternal.

Ah, but I digress. It takes much more than reading a few Chapters to awaken Occupy as to the problems that the DGE (Disguised Global Empire) has put upon the American people much less to protest that invisible empire’s criminalization of what people say and believe.

“what is there to debate? ...Hitler’s anti-Semitism was something widely shared
throughout Christian Europe…. it’s an ancient teaching and it’s abundantly
evidenced in practice, teaching and law. “

heterochromatic;

Stop It! You are scaring me; you sound almost “human”?

Bottom line is that the NAZIS were not Muslims, they were Christians. Islam can’t seem to come close to the evil that oozes from “the body of the Christian Church”. Also, the current Pope was a NAZI (Hitler youth) the brutes in Israel seem to not notice this? Could it be that they don’t have the guts to take on the Catholic church?

“If hitler was somehow a Christian in his early life, he was no longer one by early adulthood. Beginning even before Mein Kampf, Hitler was “using” Christianity as a means to an end. Period. (As an aside, keep in mind that the swastika is a sanskrit symbol, not a Christian one.”

But on the other hand I saw written in a Catholic Catechism in the Q &A section:

“Why were the Jews persecuted?”

“Because they crucified our lord, Jesus Christ”.

Hitler grew up a Catholic, like 90% of Austrians, and he would have been taught this view of Jews the way all the other kids were. In his era they took hatred of Jews in with their mother’s milk, the way a lot of westerners are now taking in their hatred of Muslims. The most important fact about Hitler is that he was a fascist, just like Breivik in Norway, who even gave the fascist salute to the media in the courtroom at his trial. He and Hitler share the same mentality, which is an insane mentality that equates torture, injustice, racism, sectarianism and cold blooded murder with patriotism and this mentality is most brutally and horrifically exhibited these days by Israel and the United States.

vec—- Hitler has plenty of ties to Chrisiianity, but also had other ideas of
paganism in his crazy head…..Hitler’s followers and the people of Germany were
nothing other than Christians and that’s the sticking point.

“One would expect that a self-proclaimed “Christian” would at least be ATTEMPTING to live a “Christ-like” life, following the principles of Jesus’ ministry. Let’s see how well Hitler did.”

Maani;

I mean this in the nicest way possible, “you are full of shit!”

You people (Christians) “own” Hitler!

If old Adolf had been raised a Muslim and declared the Jews “Mohammad” killers you sorry mother fuckers would never allow Islam to live that down! But in this reality he was raised a Christian and tagged the Jews as “Christ killers” as one of many justifications for murdering 6 million men women and children. Reality is a “bitch”, deal with it!

You missed my point about shariah law. It is not that it has “been attemped” in recent years. What I was pointing out is that laws other than those of the U.S. have ALWAYS been used in U.S. courts depending on the type of case and the jurisdiction. In other words, there are some cases in wich Jewish law MUST enter the picture because of specific cultural or other factors. Same with shariah law.

Vector:

Arguing that Hitler was somehow nominally Christian as a youth (baptized, etc.) means little. Plenty of people start out religious and “lose” their religion and become atheists, or change religions as adults, or move from atheist to faith.

As well, anyone can CLAIM to be anything - but that doesn’t make it so. I can claim to be a dog. But even if I walk around on all fours, wear a phony tail, bark, and eat my food from a bowl, it doesn’t make me a dog.

If hitler was somehow a Christian in his early life, he was no longer one by early adulthood. Beginning even before Mein Kampf, Hitler was “using” Christianity as a means to an end. Period. (As an aside, keep in mind that the swastika is a sanskrit symbol, not a Christian one.)

I already explained that Hitler was planning to get rid of most Christians after he was done with the Jews. This is historical fact. It is also historical fact that he was already dissembling the Protestant Church in Germany, Austria, and other Nazified countries. It is also historical fact that he murdered 2 million Christians in addition to the 6 million Jews and 3 million others. Hitler was an equal opportunity murderer.

One would expect that a self-proclaimed “Christian” would at least be ATTEMPTING to live a “Christ-like” life, following the principles of Jesus’ ministry. Let’s see how well Hitler did.

No, it is not that “most christians don’t want to claim Hitler as one of their own.” It is that Hitler was NOT a Christian, despite his rhetoric, symbolism and propaganda. He was a pagan. So Christians have no obligation to “claim” him at all.

This case, in the eyes of many people, was a stretch for the government. They rolled the dice and they won. Why do you think prosecutors targeted your brother?

Prosecutors targeted my brother for one reason, which was that since ’04, since late ’04, they’ve been placing tremendous pressure on him to agree to become an informant — the same way that these individuals who rolled over and testified against him, despite the fact [that] we all grew up together. My brother was the first one they approached. And I don’t think the FBI is used to people that it approaches in that manner telling them no. He didn’t want to do something that he felt was morally reprehensible, and so he refused to collaborate with them.

I understand that you talked to Tarek last night after the verdict. What did he say?

He was confident. Like us, he knows that he’s innocent. We’re ready, and he is ready, to take it to the Supreme Court. And we’re happy to know that the defense team is very much committed to helping us move forward with this as far as it needs to go.

Your brother has been portrayed by prosecutors, at least, as a young Muslim who became an angry young Muslim, who became increasingly radicalized in Islam. Do you think that’s an unfair portrayal?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, my brother began to mature in his faith right around 2000, when he graduated from high school entering college. When you’re exploring your faith at such a pivotal moment as when 9/11 happens — I mean, there are questions that are inescapable. You have a lot of these — a lot of American-Muslim youth. I don’t want to say a lot, but you have American-Muslim youth who, in this post 9/11 climate, as they’re trying to learn about their religion, they’re not getting the answers that they need from their leaders about difficult questions. You know — how should I as an American-Muslim feel about the fact that the U.S. is at war in these countries? And so because their leaders are afraid to answer these questions — because, again, post-9/11 climate, they feel this paranoia about providing answers that may be perceived as extremist — these individuals, these youth, walk away from these leaders not satisfied with an answer. They go online, they find forums where they find individuals who are not the ones who should be guiding their thinking — you know, like extremist forums, for example. And they end up, like, their ideology gets swayed in directions where they do stupid things.

Is that what happened to your brother?

No. What happened with my brother was that he — because, again, he’s well-read — he was able to avoid that. And he eventually became quite critical of the establishment of leadership in the American-Muslim community for failing to provide the leadership that could prevent these individuals from falling down that trap.

As I’ve read about your brother, it seems that there may have been a point — let’s say around 2004, when he traveled to Yemen — when, as his view of Islam was evolving, he seemed to be leaning toward the radical. But then by the time 2008 rolled around — ironically, when he was arrested — it seemed that he had moderated more. For example, he was basically saying that Islam does not allow us to kill civilians; it was directly against what al-Qaida says. Do you think what we were seeing was an evolution in which he was extreme and then was becoming less extreme?

My brother at no point felt it was okay to kill civilians. There was never a point where my brother felt that. I mean, yes, there were comments that Tarek said early on. Like any young men, you know, people say crude things. I mean, when the Iraq war started, when the shock-and-awe campaign kicked off, I remember I was in my college’s lounge. And there was a semi-circle of young men, my fellow classmates, standing around the TV cheering as they’re watching Baghdad being bombed. I mean, you know people are dying there. You know it’s like a Holocaust for them there. And you’re cheering. So I don’t hold that against them any more than I hold any of my brother’s speech against him.

As you know, your brother’s lawyers believe that prosecutors very much tried to scare the jury. They mentioned terrorism and Osama bin Laden often. Do you think that Osama bin Laden was vicariously on trial, in a sense, in this case against your brother?

Osama bin Laden, Ayman Zawahiri, Zarqawi, you name it. I mean, there were entire days that went by where my brother’s name wasn’t even mentioned. There was a tremendous amount of prejudicial evidence that was allowed into this case.

On the other hand, there was evidence that seems undisputed that your brother had been translating some Arabic documents online that appeared to support terrorism. He had also traveled to Yemen. He says that was to seek religious instruction, but prosecutors say it was to seek terrorist training. So how do you, then, assure people that if your brother was involved in those things there was still no reason to be worried about him, to think that actually he might do something that a terrorist might do?

Well, I’m going to say, first off, that he wasn’t involved in these things because keep in mind that, with Yemen, he only went to Yemen because one of the other individuals who was granted immunity by the government basically approached him and said, ‘Hey, I’ll pay for your way if you come with us.’ My brother returned from Yemen after two weeks. The other individual continued to Iraq. So what I would ask is, if my brother went there for military training, what kept him from continuing on to Iraq?

Tamer Mehanna: On the one hand, my family and all of the supporters who’ve been attending the trial, of course we all believe Tarek is innocent. But, at the same time, the prevailing climate is what it is — the political climate. So we’re not entirely surprised the jury came back with these verdicts, but what we weren’t expecting was seven guilty verdicts. That was a shock to us.

Sacha Pfeiffer: When you talk about “the prevailing climate,” the prevailing political climate, what do you mean?

We have a problem, as Americans, that we have inadequate exposure to Islam, like from an educational sense. I think many Americans are still in the dark about what Muslims believe. That’s a problem, especially when we can be sitting in a courtroom where law enforcement feels qualified to speak authoritatively about what jihad is.

Do you believe, then, that the jury’s misunderstanding of Islam influenced the way they brought down their verdict in a way that you think made it an incorrect verdict?

Absolutely, because it’s — I mean, you’re taking what’s already a very complicated case. And you’re further complicating it by steeping it in the context of this religion which is not well understood by most Americans.

Tarek Mehanna’s comments before the court, which Hedges quotes at length, are moving and poignant indeed!

Also almost all of the stories that Amy Goodman reported last week on “Democracy Now”, including the case of TarekMehanna, were examples of ‘symptomproblems’ caused by the undiagnosed and never mentioned DGE(Disguised Global Empire):

1. Sanctions nearing a ‘blockade level’ against Iran by themilitarist arm of the empire.

3. The (il)legal arm of the Empire’s 17 year imprisonment of TarekMehanna of Boston, who had been entrapped by the FBI as an informantfor writing that Arabs had the right to stand-up against the empire’smilitary arm in invading of their countries.

4. The police-state arm of the same empire planning to usemilitary sound-blaster weapons to block Chicago protestors frompeacefully demonstrating against the global financial arm of theempire at a G8 meeting, designed to inflict austerity measures on thepoor.

5. Egyptian protestors demonstrating against the foreign policyarm of the empire injecting their secret-police collaborator (and VPto the empire’s favorite former dictator), Omar Suleiman, as theempire’s supported candidate to further control their country.

6. Defunding by the former chief of staff (Rahm Emanuel) to theempire’s political pawn, Obama, of poor peoples’ medical facilitiesin the Chicago—- where the former empire butt-boy is now Mayor.

7. And finally, distraction by the empire’s media arm on the courtappearance of the deranged Zimmerman who shot an innocent young blackkid, but careful avoidance of any discussion of the insaneavailability of guns made possible by the lobbying efforts of thelittle NRA front-organization and the massive money of the corporateweapons arm of the same empire.

However, in addition to all of these stories that are caused,promoted, and cover-up by the same undiagnosed cancer of empire in’our’ country, one story stands out because of the problem that itpresents to the DGE (Disguised Global Empire)—- and that is this:

One of the “GAP” countries/territories, Pakistan, isfinally confronting the DGE (Disguised Global Empire), by demandingthat the empires’ military arm should no longer be able to launchDrone attacks on its citizens without warning or cause, and mustactually respect the older than hell (1684 the Treaty of Westphalia)and newer (UN Charter) ofnational sovereignty of another country——even though the arrogantDGE considers Pakistan merely a ‘territory’ of its world domination.

WOW. Talk about the mouse that roared at the empire.

What Thomas Barnett in his strategy promulgating 2004 Naval WarCollege book, “The Pentagon’s New Map”, defined as the “OldCore’s” plan to cut a swath across the whole of the Middle Eastand Central Asia (across a 5000 mile swath from Mauritania to thevery boarders of India and China) to assert Empire control of this"Crescent of Instability” among the “GAP"countries, and to absorb them (and their resources) into the rulingEmpire’s “Old Core”—- and prevent any “New Core”(read BRIC) from gaining power—- has now hit its first realroadblock in Pakistan.

Likewise, Iran, and even the “Old Core” allies, likeJapan, So Korea, etc. who have been literally ‘dictated to’ by the US (theself-appointed HQ of the Old Core Empire) that they MUST NOT trade for oilwith Iran, is simultaneously becoming the second roadblock to thebest made plans of the DGE to capture a full global control that theThird Reich (German for ‘empire’) had never dreamed in a thousandyears.

Just imagine an entity that can literally ‘dictate’ economic policy
to the whole world. Would you call that entity a country? No, I would
call it an Empire—- or more accurately, the HQ of a Global Empire!

If Anyone’s interested his brother gave an interesting interview on WBUR’s All Things Considered with Sacha Pfeiffer in which he blames Americans for not “understanding Islam” for the outcome of the trial..http://www.wbur.org/2011/12/21/tamer-mehanna