Discussion: if we make hitting good balls with good bats impossible...

if we make hitting good balls with good bats impossible...We make cheating rebelliously cool
and warranted in order to ensure having a good time and not being punked by the other team if they pull them out.
I think this is the crux of the bat cheating discussion.
Yes, there will always be some cheaters
but we don't have to declare war
on them and make everyone take up defensive positions wearing war paint.
By dumbing down the balls which has been going on for some time now
we make bat cheating more prominent.
Where is all this talk of bat cheating in senior ball coming from and why?
Is there, could there be something to be gained by convincing us
that most every one of us
is a bat cheater?
Hmmmmm.
Could there be self interested money
issues as "freakin' far out" as that might be,
functioning at the core of the issue?
Hmmmmm, again.

Again, I don't know of one senior player who uses an illegal bat
and sometimes hear a sound coming from one when struck that is questionable
but not enough to warrant a war
unless there's something else to be gained.

My friend, we all get Ur point, please move on. Good balls/bat combination are here to stay...too much money involved...Now please have a good thanksgiving and let it go. Businessmen are here to make money either with good balls or bad ones...it is a business. Ur friend the PR Ninja.

Generally, cheaters cheat as a way of rebeling against authority. These are the same people you see on post office walls or on one of the prison reality shows. They feel inadaquite hitting a Blue Dot ball only 420'.
Bottom line is the cheaters will cheat regardless of what bat/ball combo is being used, it will never ne enough. Maybe we can get Bruce out of retirement to show us the 500' shot once again. Its still only one (1) homerun.

i posted this for a fellow senior baller(the facts part).i know i prolly should of put it in another thread,but posted it here real quick.sorry it's just show ing the diff in bats and balls,with shaved bats being about equal to the ultra's.

The jist of Stoneman's rant
is that younger players are using cheater bats.
2 things.
That's not the older ones like us
and I for one am tired of being called a bat cheater by anyone, especially by folks hawking wares
for their manufacturer associates
and friends.
You need to bust the bat cheaters
and not punish everyone for what a small percentage are doing.
That never works.
And if you don't enforce rules
for bat cheaters then
that all by itself
will encourage more cheating
if only to level the playing field.

Fundamentally speaking,
if you keep players, all players
from hitting with good bats and balls
you increase the liklihood of cheating.
It's the suppression of fundamentally good and desirable drives that ends up
creating rebellion
and repressive reactions.
And where have we heard that before.

Now, who would be interested or benefit
the most from proceeding in the direction that all players
are bat cheaters?
Is it possible that anyone is fueling
this fire for to their own ends?
What are some of the proposed solutions
for having too many cheater bats
or declaring that we're all cheaters?
Might those who wish to sell us
balls and bats be interested in the development of this phenomenon?
Does the market place promote aggressive
behavior forcing participants
to invest ahead of time with what/where
things are going or "should" go?
Is that where the winds of change
are coming from, to protect financial
interests and investments?

All good questions with real answers,
too.

All to say, we need to get involved
and dare to define ourselves,
what we expect, need and want
so market forces and marketeers
don't end up leading us somewhere
we may not really want to go.

It wouldn't suprise me to learn there are cheaters in senior ball. And just for the record cheating is not restricted to shaving bats. At umpire clinics it's been told to us that altering (wacking against a pole, tree, etc) and removing the knob from the inside handle is also cheating. Bat companies can legally prosecute those caught.

Look.... the whole situation is set up
by all the groups concerned trying to find a bat and ball that everyonee can use to play the game of softball in a fun and safe way. I can't see this thing about balls and bats ever being dealt with in way that is going to make everyone happy....It's not going to happen!!!!!!! It is ashame that people become angry over it!!!

Wes, I do not believe that would be an effective way to curtail the shaving of bats. It is hard for me to think that in this day and age that a chip implant or a cap system couldn't be used to stop with the tinkering of bats.

Dirty
You sure can be a big shot and a-hole while hiding on line. I would LOVE to see you show up IN PERSON, and have you make your nasty comments face to face. Especially to Joe. You are a first class weenie!

I'm starting to think that
we, senior softball players of America,
might be best served by forming
our own association across the country
instead of asking or challenging
TD's and Associations and marketeers
to look out for us.
I think we might need
to look out for ourselves.
20 bucks a head and a website
might give us enough of what we need
to learn what most of want and need
and then deliver that effectively
to anyone and everyone else,
involved.
What do you think?

Nov. 24, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 55
38 posts
Dog, what are you reading that I'm not? Something between the lines?

also another answer for ya e4/e6 is that with the 52-275 ball it wouldn't matter if someone tried to get over with a cheater bat,as it doesn't hit this ball any better than any other bat.

wes as bruce said most bats will weigh a tad more than sticker weight( 1/2-1oz),the only one that i've seen almost dead on is the combat bat.also a doc can add weight to a bat to bring it back to weight,thus making it endloaded.you than have to do a balance check on it to see if its more endloaded than it should be.

Hey WOW.
I don't take Dirty Gary Sommers
seriously, anymore.
Nor should anyone else.
He's the village idiot that our community is coming to accept
as a part of itself.
We're all God's children and
even butt-holes have a place.
I use him as a marker
for whatever he's crapping on
has got to be something
valuable and good.

Right you are Mad Dog. I heard of guys who put bats in a turkey frier which melted the plastic on the inside and then hung them upside down so the plastic would flow down to the end thus end-loading a bat. Illegal

Hey Stick,
When does it or has it ever made
any sense, outside of grammar school,
to punish the majority for what a few
are doing.
Maybe we should ask the board-contributors what they think.
But, I must say that using a Turkey
Frier to end load a bat is the whackiest, most imaginitive
wildest thing I ever heard.
Talk about Get 'er done.
That's priceless and a real hoot.

The turkey frier is a true story Einstein, verified by more than a few people around my parts--this was before shaving came in. The reason they stopped doing that is because if the bat was checked it weighed over an ounce heavier than what the listed weight was--making it illegal. You'd be suprised at what we as umpires are forewarned and told about!!
Good question you pose. I guess the old saying "one bad apple ruins it for all" might apply here. On the surface your question would ellicit a "it doesn't make sense" answer. For getting caught using a cheater bat the only punishment I can see for the team would be forfeiting that game and the tourney. What would be your call on punishment for someone & a team if they were caught using a cheater bat?

To punish the entire team is absurd. When George Brett got called out for the illegal pine tar the Royals did not have to forfeit. Neither did the Cubs when Sosa's bat exploded and the cork came flying out.

Why should innocent parties be punished? When I am in a car and the driver gets pulled over for speeding, and chances are I knew he was speeding, should I get a citation too? Of course not.

I would have a strong punishment to help
deter anyone from thinking about it.
Lifetime ban for batter.
2 years for manager and forfeit
the game in tournament for the team.
You really want to get caught with a cheater bat endangering someone recklessly
and possibly destroy your team's
chance to win?
Go for it.

Yet, Stick,
I believe the best way for us
all of us to deal with bat cheating
on all levels is through peer pressure.
All of us getting up and policing
our game ourselves.
I think we could do it.
With a little organization like what
John from Powerhouse is thinking
we could exert real positive pressure
on one another and the TD's and the sellers/designers of equipment.
A real softball players org
could/would do a ton of good
on many levels and might
be the thing we need
before we fragment even further.

Interesting thoughts about players policing bat cheaters. At the Utrip level with the kids it's a big problem here in Michigan. Many of us know who the cheaters are but the problem is everyone knows everyone and won't blow the whistle on them--they're all friends. When I ump we do have a rule that specifies if a batter drills a pitcher the bat is automatically taken out & checked by the tourney director. If the TD feels the bat may have been altered in some manner he sends it to the u-trip office and they handle it from there. Starting in 2010 we will have a compression machine on-site and I beleive before tournament games there will be mandatory bat testing.
Other than someone asking, I'm not sure what the protocall is for protesting bats in senior ball. Other than trying to gain an advantage are there any other reasons why seniors or the kids would resort to shaving bats?

One reason is to protect players'
investment in the tournament.
Players who want to win
will bring out special bats
to insure the field is level
assuming others are going to use them.
Another is the fundamental reason,
Stick and that's not to get cheated
after investing real time, money
and energy in playing when a shitty
ball is being used.
NO ONE, hear me, loud and clear
Stick and I'll say it again.
No one wants to hit with a shitty
bat/ball combo and some guys have
hot bats to make sure they have a good weekend.
Again,
the drive to use illegal equipment
is to compensate for the downgrading
of balls that has been happening
in fact, steadily of a couple to 3 years now.
If you keep guys from being able to hit a ball well which is intrinsic
to the enjoyment of our game
than you make cheating more likely.
I believe this is at the crux of it
and that cheating isn't a natural drive
in most to all of us
whether it's bat cheating or anything else.
What do you think?

Interesting point Dirty. I like your analogy using the George Brett pine tar incident. That day I don't necessarily think the Yankees were looking for any suspension, they were looking to get Brett out--which was a tough thing to do back then!! I vividly recall Brett storming out of the dugout all in the umps face, spitting tobacco juice and all!! Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive that was back in 1980? And if I recall they suspended that game and finished it at a later date? Wasn't Billy Martin the Yankee manager?

Appreciate your passion on this subject Einstein. IMHO, I beleive many bat cheaters aren't the best hitters without their bats and cheat because they can't keep up. They act tlike they're stud .800 hitters when in reality their lucky if they hit .500. I will say some cheat with the idea of "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight". Or they'll say something like "I don't hit the middle". None of which is an excuse for cheating. If they made bats without end caps that would go a long way to deterring cheating!!

If one of my team mates were using an altered bat, I believe its myduty/responcibility to protect my manager and other team mates. I would approach the offending player, ask him to put his altered bat in his bag and not to bring it out again. There have to be consequences for anyone known to cheat, whether they are openly caught or not.

Yes Billy was the manager and yes they played at a later date and reversed the call on the bat.

Joe you are once again trying to use the illegal bat for YOUR ball issue. Illegal bats have been around for years.
In the 1970 there were no thin handled bats so some guys took them to machine shops and had the handles turned down. Some of the very good hitters in the 1980's were using bats 35" and 36" long. So for you to say it's because of shitty balls it causes bat tampering is not true. We were using some of the best balls back then that have ever been made. Just my thoughts.

Joe I believe you do have our best interests at heart, but are a bit miss guided by whats going on between you and Trump/Kevin, whatever that may be.
The constant referrals to companies ruining our game is an old arguement. If we dont want our game changed its up to us to not buy their products. Plain and simple.
Yes we all play to win, but not at any price, winning or loosing isnt the end of the world. It only stings until the next base hit, regardless of howt hard or softly the ball hits the ground in fair play.
Dont get me wrong, I love to win more then loosing, but the sun will still come up and darkness will fall. And you can damn well bet we will all be playing ball.

What terrific comments.
It's not my ball issue.
It's our ball issue.
E4/E6, I love your screen name.
There's nothing going on between me and Kevin from my end other than the aftermath of a pissing match on line.
The comments I make about bats and balls and manufacturers and TD's are global and true.
Kevin is a business doing what he's supposed to be doing and that is
selling and protecting his corporate interests.
I've always said this is the case
and that he and I do disagree about
what seniors want or should want,
need or will need going forward.
That's not a crime for either one of us.
And should be done respectfully
and without malice of any kind
from either side.
I'm done with it.
I hope Kevin is, too
so we can all move down the road
better together as I have said
numerous times.

Lastly,
I don't think we'll all be playing ball
if we end up with a compromised ball.
Hitting a ball hard and well
IS INTRINSIC, a one to one correlation
to the positive softball experience.
NorCal has shown me that showing up
in any case is not, in fact,
what seniors do.
We show up because we know we're going to have a good time because the game is defined by us and for us
including bat/ball combo, HR's as singles, equalizer and 5 run innings
so we can have real fun.
Trust me on this or ask NorCal guys
if local TD's don't give us what
we want, we don't attend the tournaments.
You can disagree with me all you want
as long as we maintain personal respect
with/for each other and we should find
a way eventually to work things out
or part company with dignity.

That's OK you feel that way, Gary.
I have lots of friends who are terrific ball players who like wooden bat tournaments.
But there's nothing wrong with us
for wanting/liking 1.2 bats/good ball
tournaments either.
You can disagree all you want
as long as you're respectful.
That's what we're all saying to you.

Joe you have a legitmate idea about the ball/bat issue. Maybe there should be tournaments for the hot Ball/Bat like there are for wooden bats. See how they go over, if they become popular then make the move universally. Lets see if the majority really do care either way.
I do disagree with your thought that the Game is defined by us. Not true, the game is there FOR us.
Never lose your idenity Joe and keep your ideas flowing. Good or bad, they make us think, and thats a good thing!

butch also remember they were putting 5-8 oz endloads in thier bats also back then.
we have brought all this on our selves(the lowering of ball specs)due to our soceity being sue happy.insurance companys have been after assoc's to make the game safer,or pay real high ins fees to stay in business.this leads to the birth of the cheater to get over b/c he can't be a 400' hero now.
with the 52-275 ball all of that si done away with b/c no bat will hit it any better than another(cheater or otherwise).with this ball the hr hitters will still be able to hit thier hr's and the base hitterswill be back to normal.we also will see a rise on the defensive end also.

Very true butch17!! I recall many more unhappy rides home than happy ones but next tournament we were always back at it.
Losing games can tell a lot about the character of a team. Winning is easy to handle but losing can take many dimensions. I've seen losing teams go off on each other--even to the point of fighting!! I've seen them go separate ways. I've seen them hang together and try to gut it out. What would be the best ways for a team that's in a losing streak to snap out of it?

Stick, dont misinterpret my meaning, I like winning as much as the next guy, but I can live with losing to. If you recall, Vince Lombardi and his boys were doing something we for the most part, arent. Getting paid.
My girlfriend puts it like this, she told me I am 10 going on 60, (only now I am going on 62). I play because I love to play and I love the game, winning is a bonus, and Losing is part of playing.
Butch, you are absolutely right, that ride home isnt nearly as much fun when you lose, at least not until you find that Ice Cream Parlor.

When I first got back into Slo Pitch, we went 0/15, did we like it? Of course not, but we continued to laugh and have fun. WE realized its just a game, an avenue to release our daily adult pressures and stress.
Have you ever flashed back to little league or pony league, high school ball while on the field?
I do it now and then, remembering the plays I did or didnt make or looking at the contrail of the plane flying overhead. We wanted to win at any cost. But once that game was over we were looking for another game. Looking for..........more fun!

my gal asks me why i don't get all upset with a loss like some of my teammates do.i tell her its just a game and we are not getting paid to do it.
she has heard from other spouses that they are gonna regret the ride home if we loose.

Dog thats the attitude, hell my arteries are hardening enough on their own without me adding to there plight with more bad stress.
Life is all about balance, ying & yang (who are those guys anyway? oh well) winning and losing. etc.

E4/E6 you touch on something important. I believe we all have dealt with losing tough games and team slumps but I've long felt how you come out of it is what's important. I'm like anyone else in that I can have a few cold ones and humbly reflect on the games of the day.
You may think what I'm about to post to be odd but I've long felt that there is nothing wrong with being a sore loser. Now that does not mean acting like a jerk on the field or starting a rift towards the other teams!! But instead learning why your team lost, going out and practicing harder, working on your game, maybe hitting the gym--doing the little things so next time you'll get the W.
Do you find that senior players accept losing moreso than the kids?

Robert.
You're a well defined advocate
of the 52x375 ball that was soundly
panned by the great majority of players
in a 5 senior team event in California
as not good or fun enough
to use.
That's OK because I can champion causes
that don't have popular support, too
but underlying the lack of support by seniors for that ball is the
idea that hitting a ball hard and well
is intrinsic to the positive experience
of playing softball.
It doesn't matter if we use wooden bats
and hot balls, the combo has to be lively and good or the majority of hitters will not enjoy themselves.
We can disagree respectfully but
we really do disagree.
Cheaters need to be exposed,
admonished and punished when caught
and not have our entire game changed
because we can't/won't stand up to them
and for ourselves.
No wonder marketeers and TD's see an opportunity to aggrandize their interests thinking that we seniors
are push overs and will roll with anything.
I say we really do care about ourselves
and our game and will stand up
and do the right thing eventually
when we/it are threatened.
I think the time to organize
for the best interests of ourselves
and the game is at hand, too.

JOE PULL FROM YOUR POST:
idea that hitting a ball hard and well
is intrinsic to the positive experience
of playing softball.

where is that so,you don't play ASA or any assoc that doesn't allow senior bats,if not your missing a good game,they play defense,they base hit to move people along,kinda like the old days ,can you remember that.
so instead of playing a safer game,you would rather see fee's go up,as insurance will definately go as people will get hurt.
if you want to keep the good ball,why don't you champion for the ASA bat spec's,as they are more than enough to use.i play it here with the 44-375 mct ball and love it.
and before you say it about cheaters,no cheaters should be in senior ball as you have already said that there is less than 5% max.

I think I have figured out einstein’s concern and I think I might agree with him. He states that “the combo has to be lively and good or the majority of hitters will not enjoy themselves”. I think the answer is in the definition of the “hitter.” By that term, I think einstein really means those who can hit the ball over the fence (whether 280, 300, 350, 400+ or not).

This definition of hitter squares with his concerns about making home runs outs and his oft stated opinion that if “hitters” can not go over the fence because the next home run is an out, they will go up the middle. Despite his occasional mention of dinkers and line drive batters, he really means “home run hitters” when he uses the term hitter. And maybe the majority of them would not like to lose this source of joy. But to me that is such a narrow view of softball.

I play on a major team. We have two home run hitters (I’m one) and neither of us would stop playing if home runs become more difficult. In fact, we would appreciate a safer ball for the sake of fielders, especially pitchers. Our “hitters” would never think of missing a tournament because of a less lively ball.

Before that, I played on a AAA team. We had three “hitters” (again including me). It would make no difference to me or to one of the others, since we miss the defense and base running and strategy that makes softball a complete sport. The other hitter would likely miss his long ball, but I can’t imagine he would ever skip a tournament or complain about a softer ball since his main joy is the team camaraderie.

Before that, I played on another AAA team. We had two “hitters”. Neither of us would even consider boycotting or not playing because of dead balls or ASA bats.

In my experience with these three teams, einstein is way off base, and since most AAA teams, and many major teams have very few “hitters”, I think it is extremely unlikely that any change in standards to make the game safer or slow down home run derbies would cause any talk of boycotts, complaints, etc.

But maybe for major+, or for hot 50s teams, it is an issue. But even if such teams had a majority of “hitters”, I doubt if all of the home run hitters would say the game is no longer enjoyable just because it returned to the joyous games of yesteryear with a balanced emphasis on offense, defense, and strategy.

You don't turn 50, wake up the next day & suddenly decide to cheat! Odds are if you are cheating at senior ball you were cheating prior to senior ball. I've known & played with some guys for over 20 years & on the whole, those of questionable character when I first met them are still of questionable character.

THESE are the players who will cheat! That seniors currently use hotter bats have no bearing on them. They will still shave senior bats. They will shave whatever bat hey use.

I agree with both MD & OK. Bring in a bat/ball standard that bring balance back to the game. The current bat standard needs to be toned down.

I believe you must pull through the slump as a team. It is a team sport so you win as a team and lose as a team. Maybe a team talk after the tourney as hopefully you are friends as well as teamates. Anyone knows it is all about the team hell even the " king and his court" needed more than just the king.
*Put that in for you Joe.:)*

OK.
You're last point on my point
provides the acid test.
Practiced home run hitters
are only a couple of per cent
as are true dinkers.
Together they hardly form a majority.
Neither of these groups will be affected
by going to crappy balls or
a poor bat/ball combo.
But the great majority of players in the middle will.
If you can't hit a ball dead center
or hard and have it go fast and hard
somewhere, you lose the ability
to control or direct where it should go
in order to get on base.
You don't get enough reliable pace
on the ball to get it to and through
where it won't get caught.
If you have gifted eye/hand coordination
than you might be able to adjust
but AND HERE IT COMES,
for the great majority of players/hitters in senior ball
having a lively bat/ball combo
is central to hitting well enough
to want to continue to invest
in playing the game.

For me this is obvious
because I've never met a player
who wants to play or would prefer
to play with a poorly performing ball.

And I'm not talking about rocket balls
and bats.

The argument to use a dumber ball
is one that only champions the few
and not the many of senior ball.
It's also championed by those
who want to sell us their new equipment
with their supporters and friends.

Nothing can change the fact that,
for the majority of senior players,
a lively bat/ball combo is critical
to the positive experience of playing
competitive senior softball.
Always has and always will be.

Joe you make it sound like we will be playing Punkin Ball again. As I recall we did pretty well before the Senior Bats came along, the 44/375 has been a standard for how long? It has always played well with whatever bat we brought with us.
I just dont see any of what you are advocating as being beneficial to Senior Ball.
As a matter of fact, as we age we will need to slow things down some. Who wants to watch as balls fly past us at the same rate they are now? With little or no chance of making a play.

Omar, I think you have hit the nail on the head with loving the game. I have played for 41 years now and watched it go from a game where the homerun hitter was fairly rare, as we really had just a piece of metal to hit with (the Howards bats, Steele's bats, the Brown 38 oz Louisville I swung for years, etc.) and fairly soft balls. Then they came up with livelier balls, first the Blue Dots that lasted for several games and were harder than we had been playing with, the T4000, Hot Dots, etc. that flew almost like the balls today because they were so hard, and then the much softer 'Gold dot" that really cut down the HR's from what they were. Then bats got better. The first hot bat I remember was the Demarini CU31 and the C405 single walls. Then came the double walls which got better the more you dented them and rounded them out, and then the titanium-which got banned quickly. I hit with a titanium and I don't think they were as hot as the U2. Now we have the composites and, even though I was always considered a power hitter, it is easier to hit one out now than it was with the hot balls. Even in my prime, I did not hit 400 foot shots like I do now. I do agree the game needs to slow down some and it will. It does seem to be a cyclical thing. Through all of the changes I never considered quitting because I didn't like the rules and I won't quit until I physically have to.

Why do guys continue to golf
who's scores will never really get better?
Because they hit a couple of shots
that were great or that "felt real good"
and this can't be underestimated E.
A drive, that feels good and
goes real well,
one of 'em, is enough to stoke the passion
and reinforce the idea
that this can be done
and could be real fun.

When a tournament of 20 team is over
and there's only one winner it means
the other 19 are losers.
What makes them want to continue
to come back and play/try again?
They hit a couple of bombs,
ripped a couple of shots
that shows it can be done
and they're not really that bad.
If you play restricted flight
with an powerful team
you will never beat them.
Make the ball lively enough
and we might, just could do it.
And everybody knows it, too.
I believe you guys who are "correct" about the game don't get how much
fun hitting a ball is and how much
hope and true joy it can bring
the most of us who play the game.
I've seen it, heard it
over and over again when the balls
are good and I've heard the whining
and wondering and deep disappointment
when it's just too frustrating.

Even if it's an illusion from being able to hit a lively ball well that a lesser
team can beat a better team
is that such a bad thing?
Doesn't it keep guys coming back
and investing in the sport?
Don't we want 'em thinking that the next time we play the Mavericks
we're gonna kick their asses?
One or two more hits and we got'em
on the ropes?
Hitting with lively balls/bats
brings out the potential and possibilities inherent in competition
and performance in a way that
should NEVER be underestimated
by players, TD's and marketeers.
Can a righteous brother
get an Amen?

well here we go again,where is it said that an avg player should be hitting hr's and such.it never was when we were younger,we bp'd and hit till we dropped to make oursleves better.why should we be able just buy a bat to be a hr hitter,or use a ball so hot that it will go out with any swing,just make some contact.
as i've told you,if you hit a ball dead center,its not going out,it will knuckle.you need to get some backspin on it,for carry.

Average is a relative term, Robert
and depends on the high/low values of the continuum for it's specific meaning.
If you want me to explain what I mean
regarding this and
senior softball hitters
I will be happy to, on another post.

Being able to hit a ball through gaps
and to places where no one will get it
have nothing to do with hitting HRs
but it we go to the "safer" ball
a la 2009 regular hitters
will suffer inordinately and
will not want to invest down the road
in a less enjoyable experience.

This is what TD's and marketeers
need to wrap their heads around.

Seniors won't just roll over
for any changes as a lot suspect.
As we're recognized and focused
we're 60's guys who know what being defined means and what to do
when we're not being represented
correctly.
Examples are LVSSA and NCSSA
for proof.

i consider myself a regular hitter and i'm not afraid of using the 52-275 ball.if your a regular hitter were is it that they have to be hitting the hr,or gaps regularly,you shouldn't be.you really want to see somone die or be really hurt seriously.what happens if it is you who does it,are you gonna brag on how hard you hit the ball.
like i said before if you want the hotter ball we need to get rid of senior bats.one or the other has to go.

I agree, Robert.
We don't need rocket balls
if we don't use screens or some other effective form of protection
but we do need lively ones.
I've always said and
you can check the record
that we shouldn't go below a standard of liveliness that is necessary to enjoy
the game.
Good single wall bats
and new Blue Dot balls
as I remember were good enough
to hit a ball well and hard
and have real fun.

Some of the 44x375 balls we've hit
over the last couple of years
fall well below that line.
Normal 44x375 balls in high heat
fall well below that line.
From the reaction that almost all
the seniors who attended the special
5 team event in California earlier
this year to test the 52 x 275 ball
so does this version of a "safe" ball.
It's not lively, Robert,
but how lively the bat ball combo
needs to be is the key question.
We have to make sure we don't throw
the baby out with the bath water
and move to a dissatisfying experience
for most seniors.
Maybe making a hotter version of the "safe" ball might be better as I have said before.
But the one at present
is not only not acceptable to most seniors it's not fun enough
for most to hit.
That's what I saw, experienced
and was told by a great many senior players.
Don't kill the messenger, Robert.
We're just talking about what we think
is happening and what's best for seniors.
Certainly not a crime then, now or ever,
let's all hope.

Einstein, you have just proved my point. Your measurement of a hitter is someone who can hit the long ball over the fence. Your definition of “feeling real good” is hitting the bomb. The lively bat/ball combo you desire is all oriented to the power hitter who can “equalize” things when lots and lots of balls can clear the fences (either with Ultra II bats or lively balls or both).

I’m saying that many, many players get their satisfaction from other aspects of the sport, not just the fence-clearer. Back in the day when I was a singles hitter, I was inspired by the occasional double, or the even rarer triple. Yeah, it felt good and made me want to repeat it the next game, but I never had the illusion that I was a home runner hitter and thus I wasn’t discouraged by the lack of a long ball.

I went decades without hitting a single home run! I was motivated to do my best and play again and again by my team rallying from behind; by a good catch that I wouldn’t usually make; by shutting down a hot team with accurate pitching, by going first to third on a short single and later scoring; by seeing a teammate make a great throw; etc. I would have quit years ago if my motivation and satisfaction was only based on home runs.

I never hit a home run until I got my first Miken. Scrawny little me, putting one over the fence! Did I like it? Yes. Did it motivate me to try it again? Yes. Would I argue in favor of a return to single wall bats? Yes. I would gladly give up my Miken for the improved safety, the honor due a REAL home run hitter, the value of a good outfielder who had balls to chase and catch, the sparkling infield play, the need for thinking and strategy, the desire to keep my legs in shape for base running, etc.

Since most senior players have not been and are not now true long ball hitters, I think the majority does not need the lively bat/ball combo to feel good about themselves and the game. In fact, the lively current conditions only cheapen the home run when a guy like me can put one out. Lets play real softball, not home run derby.

Let's be clear, OK.
We disagree if you say that most players
and hitters won't be disadvantaged
by going to lesser balls.
Again, I have NEVER met a player
who wants to hit a compromised,
lesser, crappy ball.
Not one.
No maybe you'd be the first if I was ever to meet you which is hard because you don't say who you are though I have an idea of who you might be.
And, it might be interesting to think of alternatives or fashionable to go along with the current "march"
to a safer ball
but no player, OK wants to hit a less
than lively ball and hotter means
more fun, for the MOST of us.
If you disagree than
we disagree and that's not a crime,
now or ever.

maybe all the hitters will say they want to hit the hot ball,what about the fielders who have to try and field the rockets flying by them,what do they say.why not do both sides of the story.
also i don't think you have talked to the majority of senior softballers to actually know what they want,your just pushing your agenda.you prolly have maybe talked to a 100-200 maybe, less than 1%.
your talk of the test tourney involved 5 teams,that is not a good representation of all the teams that play,i would say less than 1%.

Robert, the more you/we talk
the clearer it will get to all
where you/we're coming from.
And I'm cool with that.

We really disagree if, in fact
that is what you truly believe
and not just hustling for someone else
to curry favor or to back your friends.

You say that:
-most everyone is cheating
and I don't agree
-the game is too unsafe to enjoy
and many studies don't support that
-safety is the key issue
we all should be concerned about
when making a decision about our game
and even Nancy says the game has to be meaningfully risky to enjoy
-lesser balls will make our game more fun to most of the players and I've never talked with one player in all the years I've been playing since sandlot
who wants to or likes playing with a ball that doesn't hit well.

It's not a crime to disagree
and the longer we talk the clearer
our positions will become and the more
seniors can have/take an opinion
on what they think they want
and what in fact, is reflective of them
and is truly going on.

Debate is/can be a very useful tool
to any community.
But if in fact we get boring to for others or you wish to continue
call or email me, anytime.

It's OK Butch.
Only one of us is right about what most senior if not any softball player truly wants and our comrades and readers
can figure it out for themselves.
Let's help them and be clear.
We really do disagree about what's best for senior ball and what senior players,
the most of them care about or prefer regarding a lively bat/ball combo.

I would like to see the results of your poll, showing me that a majority of the 15K + Seniors in the USA want livlier ball/bats.
In Vegas there were 8 teams in our division, roughly 105 Senior Players. In 3 days of competition I never heard one word about the choice of bats and balls. Or even a discussion of such.
I love our game, hot, cold, soft, hard. I will play with a grapefruit and Pine Tree branch if that what we have.
If I were a betting man, I would bet that if there is a choice of The Majority, it would be to play regardless of the balls & bats offered.

I have to agree with E4/E6. If we are talking about majority of players at all ages and divisions my money would be on them saying play ball regardless of the bats and balls. Yes I know 51% is a majority. lol

wes all of the above,mostly the core tho.
joe where i have i been saying that most players are cheats,your the one that says that will happen if we go to a ball that won't hit good.don't be putting words on here for me.
where are your studies on injuries,i say the ball is dangerous and if hit by it there will be serious injury,those studies have been done.

and lastly why do you keep insisting i'm hustling for someone.i have nothing to do with any sales of any company,please get that thru your head.
i have hit the ball i feel will make our game safer and saner to play,i'm sorry you won't be a hr hero if it does happen that we go to this ball.i'll still get my hits as i don't go looking to just unload all the time on the ball.i take time to look at the D and where i should hit the ball.

I don't totally understand why the debate has to be around a different ball. Maybe it is naive to think the bat manufacturers might consider it because I know the 'bucks rule' as far as bat manufacturers, but I remember the titanium coming out and being banned. Why can't they back off the liveliness of the bat by-say-5% to 10% and use a good ball. Also, maybe go back to a much smaller sweet spot. Yes, the bats might even last longer(I've gone through 3 this year). Or is the genie so far out of the bottle that players will not accept a less lively bat? Or should we just go to soft rubber balls so nobody gets hurt?

Webbie, you're in danger of being naive
if you don't get how much money making
is at the bottom of lots of what goes
on in this society not least of which is senior softball.
Lively balls and good bats, forever.
Everything else is ignorant, self-serving or somebody trying to sell us something.
I'm either right that we all want
and it's in our best interests to have
a lively bat/ball combo
or I'm wrong about the majority of senior players
and Butch/E4, only a minority of guys
post on this site but a greater percentage read, think and talk about
what's going on and what makes
the most sense.
I wouldn't underestimate the power of the word, the truth or the buzz about anything important going on
in any society.
The truth is irresistible and
spreads like wild fire
and the people/players are starting
to listen and wake up and
will make their own judgments.

Webbie,
the bat/ball combo is in danger
of being driven down well below lively
if we're not vigilant or careful.
This is and will be a huge issue
that will affect the game I love to play for the worse I do believe.

Socialization of Senior Softball is on Obamas agenda.
Joe so far all I have read is your opinion on this issue. I like many here wont take a stand until I know the facts. Please convince me Joe, I am open to evidence that backs up your stand. However that evidence must be concrete. Standing on this fence is quite the balancing act.

One could just as easily ask "Why did Assn XXX stop using the 47\525 balls?"
It's a vicious cycle. Both Bat and Ball manufacturers are trying to sell, sell, SELL their products at what ever cost, after all, it is their lively hood. Hype selling, truthful or not, akin to the "tire kickers" out to "buy" a new or different car.

As for the Ti bats, I've had 3, all were no where near as good as the new composites we now have. And that is with a ti using red\blue dots to the 44\375's and comps bats with both balls.

Taits,
Very good and truthful post. Ti bats were banned because of safty. No one complained about it because there was a huge difference in performance over a single wall bat. Then the double wall bats came along. The associations were sued to make them legal and they came up with a performance test on bats, the problem with that was the test was easily defeated by the bat companies. I owned a bat company at the time of this. So the next logical thing to do was change the ball to control the bats, and they did.
Now years later with the introduction of composites it made getting by the test very easy to do. As you said the bats of today surpass the performance of a Ti bat that was banned by all of the associations, and still pass the test. The second thing is that every new composite bat gets better every swing you take with it, and continues to surpass all of the test standards as it get older. One the the big manufactures said to me recently " how in the hell did we get a bat legal that no one can control the performance of?" Good question. Now the associations are looking for a way to control the bats and give the game of softball some integrity. The bats have been improving since 1982 and the balls have been getting less in performance since 1988, there will be more changes as sure as you will be a day older tomorrow. The players don't want to give up the bats so the associations will change the ball. It is easier and far cheaper to change a ball than have everyone buy new bats.

As Omar said he didn't hit a homerun til he started playing senior ball. Do you think he is a better athelete at 50 ,the he was at 30 or 40?

The problem was and still is that the bat companies continue to make bats better and the associations are trying to find ways to control the game.

I know it's megabucks, but they build cars that can go 200 mph, but put speed limits on them on the road. Getting a less lively ball that stays consistent seems much more difficult than restricting the bats. Maybe we need to invent a light weight one piece suit with armor for pitchers to slip into when they pitch, back the fences up to 340,put in a good ball, put a 5th outfielder out there to cover the wide open spaces and have at it?
Hard to talk with my tongue so firmly lodged in my cheek.

The bat problem might take care of itself when someone hurts a pitcher and
the pitcher takes the batter to court
and they find out he was using a altered
bat and the pitcher now owns the batters
house-car and his 401K
Wes

Trumpball,
Thank you. I try to only post stuff i can at the time back up. Not in any order but I actually hit many more hr's in my 50's or younger, and was in much better shape as well. On the getting hotter I'd agree to that but there is also the point of diminishing returns within the composites. Great example was\is the Decker Jump bat. Was fair bat then got much better (broke in) some areas turned red... close to a hot bat type, then it cracked...I tested them 3-4 weights. Still have my last one that's almost L shaped and another with about 5 hits on it.
Personally, I like the good balls, but could live with most any light 26 oz bat, (makeup\type, ie; wood, metal, comp, what ever) that way.
Too many "things" are constantly changing to have the game anywhere close to what we really had in our youth. Some are good some questionable and others not at all IMO.
Have a great end of year bottom line and Happy Holidays.
Thanks again.

I'll march right over with my huge 2 cents worth!!! I am working on a suit at this very moment-lightweight space age material, indestructo (CR) lightweight armor to withstand the force of a softball travelling at 160 mph to cover the face (transparent), neck, torso, private parts armor reinforced and enlarged to cover the massive egos, and legs. No more problems going up the middle. We could even make the bats hotter so we can hit the ball 600 feet. Imagine the thrill of hitting a ball 2 football fields!!! Infielders could wear the armor, too. It will only weigh 3.4 lbs, so everybody could wear it. There would be only one thing to worry about---now the fielders gloves would have to be reinforced.(Might hurt your hand). All this sound silly??? To be honest, in 1980, if anyone had come up with the scenario that we actually have now, they would have been laughed at. I don't really know what the best answer is, but I sure have seen some very close calls, including an inadvertant line drive I hit past a pitchers head this year that he did not react to until it was in center. Scared me to the point of advocating a somewhat slower game. How would any of us feel if we were the one who hit that one line drive that killed a pitcher?

Where there's fear and fear mongering
there's always the propensity
to go too far in the right direction.
It's so easy to move the masses of any society by making them afraid.
I broke both arms and had my face split
open by softballs in the last 2 years
but they were all my fault from not
getting ready to field my position
and I favor no real changes that will take away the fun of hitting lively balls with good bats.
Gary Sommers says pitchers should get in better shape and be ready to field
their position and Nancy says
the game has to be meaningfully dangerous to be the same game
we love to play.
All to say, we need to move CAREFULLY
and well through this period of adjustment
not overreact regardless of what's being pushed or sold to us by anyone
and think about what's most important
to our game to keep it as much fun
and as safe as we can as we all move
forward together.
I will live and die believing
that seniors if not all players
want to and will enjoy softball better
with a lively bat/ball combo.
There's many ways of insuring safety
for pitchers on a field
and we need not get locked into one mode
more than another till we're reasonably
sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Look at the irony of Bill Ruth getting
smooshed by a ball after his association
went with HR's as out and an absurd
PPR rule.
Had real players been asked and polled
in significant numbers
it would have been discovered
this combination of conditions
not only doesn't protect pitchers
but as in Bill's case
makes them more vulnerable to injury.

We all belong on senior ball.
Manufacturers, TD's, players
and Associations and we must all
ask and share info and look for common
ground and majority opinions
and not move unilaterally in any direction regardless of the affect,
specific interest or profits involved.
As we all share in the phenomenon
of senior softball we all have the responsibility to work with and assist
one another as much as possible
so we can all move down the road
better together.

And Kevin,
DeMarini became a distance hitter
later in his career, didn't he?
Bogie, Rick Perez, Waldyte, Joe Tang
all teach guys like me how to maximize
leverage and strength to hit the ball
farther and better as we get older.
Are you saying this is impossible
or impertinent or
shouldn't be taught and learned?
There's a lot of bought and sold videos
and guys like me
who would say it's never to late to learn and guess what?
Chicks really DO dig
the long ball.
Babe Ruth said if he went to hitting
singles and doubles
he would have batted .650.
What does that say about the power,
prowess and seduction of the long ball.
Who wouldn't want to hit a ball
out of the park, if they could?
So, guys being able to hit shots
in their fifties
they couldn't do in their 30's and 40's
shouldn't be that tough to understand.
Bogie and his fabulous videos
point out that it's never too late
to learn to hit the ball hard and far
and never does it become less fun
to do so.

Einstein, sure guys can become power hitters in their older age with changing their stroke and technique, power lifting, personal instruction. But that's not me...nor any other now blooming home run hitter I know. In the last eight years of the composite, the guys like me who have blossomed into power hitters have the same swing, same ball (if not softer), have often gained weight, slower reflexes, less muscle mass, etc. We hit them out because the composite bat is so much hotter! How ridiculous! Of course it is fun to homer, but the price paid in defense, safety, strategy, base running, etc. is not worth it in my opinion. I'm one of those who wants to go back to the single wall and am willing to give up my unearned power for love of the game I played for 50 years when offense did not overwhelm defense.

OK or B,
Then as now you are entitled to your opinion and it's a good one.
We seem to be arguing in the extremes
of rocket balls versus sock balls.
The real argument comes more into being
with how lively or how socklike is
good enough to thoroughly enjoy.
Hitting a ball hard an well is intrinsic
to playing softball.
Lively balls and good bats are the only way to go.
You can argue rocket balls without
adequate safety measures
of which there are a great many
that would work,
shouldn't be used for seniors
but lively balls and bats have to be.
C'mon, B.
I'm convinced
that MOST players of any age
and expertise want to hit with a lively
bat and ball combo, aren't you?

Can we again agree that the Trump Stote is sufficient and we don't really need the Trump Rock? That is, provided that sufficient care is taken in very hot tournaments to keep the Stote out of extreme heat before the games.

I think the Trump Stote ball is a good ball when it doesn't get very hot
as many other players do, too.
The Baden Fire ball we tested last week
in Concord seemed lively and good, too.
If keeping ball like these cool will keep them lively enough in the high heat, great.
It seems like they would work fine
unless other standards in the making the balls or practices in their manufacturing changes.
With meaningful standards and safety measures in place, like in 5 run innings
no PPR and HR's as singles,
it's OK to hit hotter balls like
the Trump Rock, too, just like in LVSSA.
Remember, no one was hurt inordinately
and a good time was had by all
and that wasn't an accident.

I agree I believe the Trump Stote is a good ball and should be used. Hopefully SSUSA will not change this. I think LVSSA will probably stay with the Rock.

I will go on record though and state that I have not seen a pitcher who has the reflexes in Major Plus yet, who could defend a line drive at their head that can be hit by a dozen or so power hitters in Major Plus when the Rock is used. I believe it is a problem waiting to happen.

When you say you lost your focus on the mound on 3 occassions during games and on the those 3 occasions had both arms broke and I can't remember what else you hurt, you took the blame for those injuries. I was wondering , if you remember, what ball was used? I wonder also how many pitchers lose their focus for an instant. I haven't seen you play but I have been told you have good reflexes. In fact, when you play third base, when not on the mound, you play inside the bag.

Something doesn't make sense to me. I know one of the guys who hit one of the balls that broke your arm usually goes middle and you know that. How did you lose your focus? Is it possible that he can hit a ball so hard that sometimes it can't be defended by a pitcher? I honestly don't know.

Very good questions and thoughts.
Thanks for engaging me.
I had turned sideways when Clatta
hit his ball at me.
I thought he was going to hit it
into right field hard and/or deep
and I wanted to watch it.
Duhhhhhh, me.
The other two came from me just learning how to pitch and being more concerned like a rookie might
at watching the pitch and where it landed than getting ready to field
the position.
Veteran pitchers as I'm sure Dog knows
get ready to play defense
the second they release the ball.
I've got it together now and no ball
hit in the air at me
will get to my body before I can get my glove on it if I'm paying attention,
And as Gary says
if you don't like the heat
get out of the kitchen.

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