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And yeah, the hit points thing is actually how it was described ingame, IIRC the description went something like "Servants are made out of mana, which is like having a set amount of hit points- a battle between Servants is trying to shave off that mana, to bring those hit points down to zero, or else to hit the cores that maintain them".

The "superhuman durability" or whatever just comes from this.
How much magical energy you shoot does proportional damage.
Attacks with more magical energy = bigger explosions.
Random human drives a helicopter into a Servant, doesn't nothing because there's no mystery in the attack.

Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.

Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny

In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

Am I crazy, or was there an entry somewhere where Gilles's E-rank strength was specifically referenced for the skull crushing as a "even E-rankers can do this"? I seem to remember that there was something like that a while back. Either way, technically all servants have magic circuits in one way or another.

I don't remember that, but it sounds like somebody trying to justify the E=10 humans thing.

Nah, Magic Circuits are a more recent thing. Medea doesn't have them, for example- she just commands magic to do whatever she wants, Solomon was intrumental in creaing the basis of magecraft, and Magic Circuits came along way later, and so on. The farther back you go, the fewer circuits you find, and the more people just interact with magic.

Ok, exactly. Rin's normally just physically fit, but normal, the only remaining option is performance thanks to magic circuits. No, there's no mention of Shirou reinforcing himself. The mere presence of the circuits being turned on does this. Projection actually changes Shirou's performance considerably. Letting the sword guide his strikes lets him do things he himself can't, such as stand up to Kuzuki as long as his swords are maintained, produce an A-rank attack(cut off Herc's arm), easily handle Herc's attacks as long as he was focused on projecting rather than being in the fight. Shirou's performance in CQB was outright better than Gilgamesh's, so it's kind of a given that was a superhuman action.

As for Archer, you're literally arguing that a character < 1/10 of his usual ability thanks to mana starving, and getting stabbed by a legendary weapon is indicative of servants as a whole. If all his abilities were degraded equally, his endurance would have a numerical value of less than 3. Not to mention that magic circuits are always producing magical energy unless the user turns them off. This means that the circuit was still active, but he had not reserves, not that it wasn't amping him.

As for Salter, already addressed that, but to elaborate, she was barely conscious, with a deeply wounded body, magical energy can't exist within a body that's too wounded to use it (Caster), and absolutely is not an indicate of her normal durability, and was probably in the state where she's inferior to Shirou and Rin in physicality. Again, outside of that circumstance, the dagger shatters. Also, Shirou's superhuman, especially with Archer's arm.

Hold up now. The swords in Fate were explicitly just swinging themselves. Nothing to do with Shirou's circuits or any such nonsense. He was reproducing their history, their usage, not trading blows with Herc because he just suddenly becomes super stronk once he lit up a single circuit. There is no way in hell Shirou can fend off a single attack from Herc, let alone fight him equally like Caliburn did in Fate. He can fight Kuzuki because Kuzuki isn't superhumanly fast, Kuzuki just got magic fists from Medea for the sake of being able to punch swords and grip Sabers, and Shirou & Gil were just swinging those swords at each other as hard as they could. Gil is nowhere near a match for any of the weapon-focused Servants, we've never seen him pull off any ridiculous speed feats, and being stronger than Shirou doesn't help when Shirou's goal is just to keep breaking both their swords.

K&B don't have any magical cutting effects, Archer's natural Servant Concrete Body (TM) should've had K&B barely able to puncture him, but if I'm understanding you right, you're arguing that Shirou's circuits were... producing the next best thing to zero mana, which was making him super strong for no reason.

Salter is a Saber so filled with mana she literally can't control herself. She's described as an out of control train, and all that'd happened to her was that she was temporarily stunned after having destroyed Rho Aias and Bellerophon. She was barely injured.

Oh, so this is what's being referred to. This is not mutually exclusive to having superhuman durability. This just means servants can reform their body with mana, which damages the core, and head and heart damage deal direct damage to the core. This is not an automatic process, as we see Saber actively do it after Gae Bolg. If this were the only thing keeping them alive in attacks, and they have normal durability otherwise, then a servant could literally just rip off the arm of another servant no problem, and every punch or kick would just go straight through them, and they'd be a bloody mess until they reformed. That's not what happens. There still has to be an attack powerful enough to damage the body in the first place before damage to the core can be done.

True enough, but IMO it works far better as an alternative to "Servants are all massive chonkers who take massive amounts of damage to even scratch". They're ghosts with physical bodies made of mana- toss them at a wall and they're disrupted a bit, but hit them with a magic/anti-ghost/anti-Servant attack and they're actually damaged and have to regen.

That, or lol anime. It's not as if JP media is even slightly good with physics, as referenced by sword-made vaccuum blades, air pressure actually hurting things, dudes getting tossed through buildings but then getting hurt by regular-arse punches, and, possibly the dumbest thing, afterimages.

Effectively this + the mana consumption to recover from attacks. Also, Shirou was amped to the extent that he was the superior CQB fighter, so bear that in mind as well. "He can't handle my strikes, so he must destroy my sword by destroying his own" was a thing. So Shriou had enchanted swords+substantial striking power in the servant range.

Gil was only temporarily set back by Shirou. Shirou's own monologue straight-up says he can't let Gil regain his composure or he's just plain dead. Also, bear in mind this was at a time when Fate was more grounded, and Servants didn't go Mach speeds unless they were Super Speedy Doge.

Nah, Magic Circuits are a more recent thing. Medea doesn't have them, for example- she just commands magic to do whatever she wants, Solomon was intrumental in creaing the basis of magecraft, and Magic Circuits came along way later, and so on. The farther back you go, the fewer circuits you find, and the more people just interact with magic.

The Lahmn have circuit. Circe has circuits. Solomon has circuits. Weapons from the Xia dynasty required circuits. With the advent of FGO in fact the further back you go the more circuits you find.

Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.

Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny

In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

Salter is a Saber so filled with mana she literally can't control herself. She's described as an out of control train, and all that'd happened to her was that she was temporarily stunned after having destroyed Rho Aias and Bellerophon. She was barely injured.

No, she's pretty badly hurt.

They're both alive.
Rider must've used up her magical energy as she's still on the ground.
But Sabershe's deeply wounded, but she still has some power left.

"!"
We barely had the edge in the confrontation of the Noble Phantasms.
Bellerophon had ninety percent of its light offset by Saber's holy sword.

"Ah"
I run.
I run without understanding what I have to do.
I release the Azoth Sword while I run.

"Sa, ber."
I run to her.
I run to her and straddle her defenseless body.

"AhShi, rou?"
Did she hit her head?
Saber's looking up at me absent-mindedly.

"Ah."
How must I look to her?
I'm on top of her, looking down with a dagger upraised.

- - - Updated - - -

Having circuits open and just filling your body with magical energy does increase performance, but nothing close to Servant levels.
It's like taking 4 scoops of C4.

Tohsaka said something about pushing a switch in my head, but it's not like that.
Clang.
A hammer strikes in my head and the inside of my body completely changes.

My body leaps.
My body is burning like a fire.
There's less than twenty meters between me and Shinji.
For me right now, that will only take an instant.
My body is full of energy vastly higher than when I have a Magic Circuit inserted in me.

"Scream later. Stop the boundary field right now, Shinji."
"W-Who are you kidding. Who would listen to… your…"
I take my other arm and grab his throat.
Drips.
The blood soaked into my clothes stains Shinji's body.

"Then I'll just kill you before the boundary field. I don't care which it is. Make up your mind quickly."
I put power into the hand grabbing his throat.
It must be because of the magical energy flowing through my body.
I feel like I'd be able to break this neck.

Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.

Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny

In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

Hot take: Gil was rusty from 10 years doing fuck all in a physical body.

Same with Shirou Kotomine

got to hook up to the Greater Grail

Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart

It does mean that, but not literally.

Originally Posted by Deathhappens

Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable

With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

Like yeah, Servants are superhuman in durability if they choose to just facetank stuff without phasing, but I can't really call that invincible when most of the stuff they face like that without sufficient Mystery is far below their usual paygrade.

Hold up now. The swords in Fate were explicitly just swinging themselves. Nothing to do with Shirou's circuits or any such nonsense. He was reproducing their history, their usage, not trading blows with Herc because he just suddenly becomes super stronk once he lit up a single circuit. There is no way in hell Shirou can fend off a single attack from Herc, let alone fight him equally like Caliburn did in Fate. He can fight Kuzuki because Kuzuki isn't superhumanly fast, Kuzuki just got magic fists from Medea for the sake of being able to punch swords and grip Sabers, and Shirou & Gil were just swinging those swords at each other as hard as they could. Gil is nowhere near a match for any of the weapon-focused Servants, we've never seen him pull off any ridiculous speed feats, and being stronger than Shirou doesn't help when Shirou's goal is just to keep breaking both their swords.

I didn't say that he did so because of his circuit(fuck no), just that he did it with projection. Maybe that should have been a separated paragraph to avoid the misconception that's currently taking place.

Even base Kuzuki is superhuman, let alone his amped self. Remember when the novel said he hit Archer with an attack that would have taken a human's head clean off and it did nothing? Now, the reason why I didn't bring this up before is because it's not applicable to the debate since he lost Medea's magic, but just so we're clear, yes, Kuzuki has superhuman performance.

You missed the point of the Shirou Vs Gil quote. The only reason why Gilgamesh destroyed his own weapons was so that he could get rid of Shirou's weapons because Shirou was overwhelming him in CQB. Shirou was not the one destroying Gil's swords, it was the reverse. It just so happened that UBW's superior draw speed gave him the edge in that way as well.

K&B don't have any magical cutting effects, Archer's natural Servant Concrete Body (TM) should've had K&B barely able to puncture him, but if I'm understanding you right, you're arguing that Shirou's circuits were... producing the next best thing to zero mana, which was making him super strong for no reason.

All NPs have a shit load of mana and tend to be high-grade weapons. Even other NPs with passive effects like Gae Dearg and Buidhe emit large amounts of magical energy. This is why Medusa not having a weapon-based NP is a problem for her in CQB. You seem to misunderstand what the circuit's doing. Simply having the circuit running amps the user. Bear minimum, it's self-sufficient. Shirou wouldn't be consuming more magical energy than he produced. He simply couldn't make any more projections. Also, if he wasn't acting with superhuman ability, how exactly do you think he was clashing with Archer, when one of the swords he was hitting him with was noted by Shirou to be as strong as one of Berserker's? I think it's a given that Archer was amping himself with projection considering he was able to directly clash with him.

So in summary, EMIYA was extremely low on mana causing massive physical degradation(almost certainly affecting his ability in durability as well), Archer was almost certainly amping his performance in the clash, Shirou had to as well, so what got a then frail Archer (using a sword doesn't amp durability other than the direct usage of it), a superhuman strike with a noble phantasm (doesn't really look like Kanshou, but eh, if we're being consistent with UFOTABLE) is what did Archer in.

Salter is a Saber so filled with mana she literally can't control herself. She's described as an out of control train, and all that'd happened to her was that she was temporarily stunned after having destroyed Rho Aias and Bellerophon. She was barely injured.

Mana disperses if the body is too damaged, and Saber certainly wasn't cognizant to reform the abilities it provides. Again, explain the discrepancy between this, and the bad end where the Azoth Dagger, a weapon that has 10 years worth of Rin's mana just shatters on contact with Saber if she's not degraded in any way in this circumstance.

True enough, but IMO it works far better as an alternative to "Servants are all massive chonkers who take massive amounts of damage to even scratch". They're ghosts with physical bodies made of mana- toss them at a wall and they're disrupted a bit, but hit them with a magic/anti-ghost/anti-Servant attack and they're actually damaged and have to regen.

It has to have a degree of power behind it greater than the majority of modern weapons. You can't just take a knife, make it spiritual, and attack with a servant with only the same amount of force it'd take to cut a normal person unless the knife itself is super-special or something like that. I'd say there's an abundance of accolades and feats showing servant's physical toughness in combat is well above a normal person's.

That, or lol anime. It's not as if JP media is even slightly good with physics, as referenced by sword-made vaccuum blades, air pressure actually hurting things, dudes getting tossed through buildings but then getting hurt by regular-arse punches, and, possibly the dumbest thing, afterimages.

As someone that went from comics to anime and the like, trust me, it's just action-oriented fiction. Reputation aside the Japanese style isn't more ridiculous than something you'd find in any other region. We all burn our physics textbooks together.

Gil was only temporarily set back by Shirou. Shirou's own monologue straight-up says he can't let Gil regain his composure or he's just plain dead. Also, bear in mind this was at a time when Fate was more grounded, and Servants didn't go Mach speeds unless they were Super Speedy Doge.

"Fuh, hah!"The sounds of swords crashing echo through the area.
He cannot handle my attacks and has to destroy my weapon with his.

-that will be the cause of his defeat

he is the greatest heroic spirit as he has over a thousand noble phantasms at his leisure.

But he is only an "owner".
He does not have one weapon, so he is not a "wielder" who can use his weapon to its maximum potential.

Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.

Therefor-this is the only servant I can match

As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be used…!

Gil's loss was for more than one reason. If he could perform equally to Shirou with each individual sword, he would have won by default, but he couldn't, which is why it came down to their speed. Honestly, it never go around to why Gilgamesh supposedly would win if he got composure. It could just as easily mean that if he lasted any longer, Shirou's mana would run out, which it did right as he was in the process of finishing Gil off.

I've got bad news for you. They were all super-fast even then (which is fine). It's not as "grounded" as you think. Ironically, the status screen saying that Bellerophon was 500km/hr appeared after a fight where it's stated to be faster than Saber, right after Saber had a feat that couldn't be nearly as slow as 500km/hr.

Should be Arjuna most of the time, I think. I don't think Chiron can defend himself against the Rasengan.

If you go by FGO animations, Chiron seems to be able to freely use weaker version of his NP in regular combat. i believe that it is shown in his EX attack

Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart

It does mean that, but not literally.

Originally Posted by Deathhappens

Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable

With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

I still don't buy the whole "nope you can't stab Servants if you don't bench buildings for a living" thing, the way Rin explained it, said they couldn't be hurt by butter knives but if there was an enchanted butter knife even she could hurt one with it.

Antares Snipe is why I think Chiron can win at least some of the time, but Arjuna probably wouldn't be caught by surprise like Achilles was thanks to Clairvoyance.

how often do you happen to look up at a 90 degree angle from the ground, for no reason, when you are trying to shoot a moving target with a bow that is also shooting at you while moving?

Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart

It does mean that, but not literally.

Originally Posted by Deathhappens

Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable

With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

Chiron has an awful lot of divinity for someone fighting against a Noble Phantasm which seems specifically designed to kill those with Divinity.

Antares Snipe is also pretty low as far as attack power goes, so with Arjuna's A++ Luck to help him see it coming, I wouldn't expect it to be the game changer here.

At the very least, it's going to be a very uphill battle for Chiron.

The Fourth Order - Long form, Church-centric story. Follows the life of a young knight within the Church, and her personal battle against the heretical.My other fanfiction - Almost entirely short stories and oneshots, except for the above

I still don't buy the whole "nope you can't stab Servants if you don't bench buildings for a living" thing, the way Rin explained it, said they couldn't be hurt by butter knives but if there was an enchanted butter knife even she could hurt one with it.

The way I interpreted Rin's explanation is that as long as a Servant is holding the object, it can harm other Servants, but not if a human was holding it.

Originally Posted by Deathhappens

Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.

Originally Posted by forumghost

You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?

Originally Posted by Tobias

I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler’s armor. An attack without prana accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone. It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the first time Ruler had witnessed of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed apart with a sword.

Originally Posted by FSN

"Of course it's amazing. Not just Saber, but all the Servants are heroic spirits. There's the fact that they're spirits, but they can't be hurt by normal means. That's because Servants themselves are mysteries.

"The only ones that can physically hurt the Servants are other Servants, heroic spirits like them. So in other words, if a Servant was using it, even a paper knife could hurt Saber."