“”In the official record of the historic House debate on overhauling health care, the speeches of many lawmakers echo with similarities. Often, that was no accident.
Statements by more than a dozen lawmakers were ghostwritten, in whole or in part, by Washington lobbyists working for Genentech, one of the world

Wow, great find, javaz. This is why I push back when people say the NYT is useless. This is great work by Robert Pear. I’m starting to collect the names of reporters who are still doing tough, honest journalism.

I’m not surprised by this story. Watching those proceedings, it looked like the GOP has all been giving the same crib sheet. But it’s nice to see it pointed out for people who didn’t have the time to spend all day in front of C-Span.

Goodnight and a huge thanks to KarateKid for debating me on the Planet. I know I was sure on my heels but I know most importantly we agree in much of the same principles on healthcare. My personal situation just makes me look at the situation much more pragmatically.

That’s what is so shitty about the Stupak amendment it brings up an issue that will divide Dems now on the issue of healthcare. Because face it Repubs are just a non-factor in the healthcare bill because that’s what they want.

It’s so annoying that the right wing is never called out for this ploy. They had the White House, the House, the Senate, AND the Supreme Court for years and didn’t whisper the word abortion. Now, all of a sudden, it’s front and center.

Exactly. Wedge issues are all that the GOP has had pretty much since Nixon.

I will say this, people have underestimated and thought the worst about the Dems and Health Care reform but in the end, they’ve overcome what others said they couldn’t.

I think they will moderate the amendment to simply leave things the way they are and throw a bone to the Blue Dogs to say, “See, we won’t use this money specifically for abortions?” even though women will be free to have plans that provide abortions.

Let’s see. I do remember when the public option was declared dead too. Let’s not underestimate the gamesmanship of the Dems and Obama.

You mean when the people whipped up in a frenzy realize that the USSA never materialized and that they were duped?

Yeah.

Then again, some of those hardcore loons already think it’s here. No hope for the fringe. I’m just talking about bystanders that have fed into this scaremongering crap, but may come around.

My grandma was funny when I visited this past fall. Really conservative, especially socially (she moved to live across the street from her evangelical church). But, she also lived through the Depression and just put it: what, do people really think the government is going to treat them worse than the health insurance companies?

I think there’s more people out there like that who don’t think of the gov’t as the enemy, and that’s why the Repubs depend upon social wedge issues.

Adlib one of the technical problems I had was that my first statements were cut short by the chat limitations. There was obviously a limit on the number of characters in a chat line. I will put that limit in my debate notes for next week so the people debating knows it.

Ouch.
I can’t keep up with it all, but it worked.
I apologize for interrupting again, but people, and me included, we did not know what to click, and it was the live chat thing.
You’ve got to spell it out for those of us who are technically challenged!
I am not alone!
YEAH, baby!

When AdLib offered this to the charter members, I offered a few suggestions. AdLib said he would consider them for the next time out. I think he is considering them now!

KQ had his arguments lined up and delivered them.

KK, you know I love you and all, but you did poorly. Attacking with “that is just speculation” and “you are throwing X under the bus” is weak, weak, weak.

Of course it is fucking speculation. KQ is not God. Anything KQ says about the future is speculation. “The sun will rise in the East tomorrow” is speculation. You need to anticipate your correspondent’s “speculation” and knock it down with logic.

And this whole “throw under the bus” meme is so tired I cannot express it. KQ did not offer the damned coat-hanger amemdment, nor did he author the dynamic of humanity that makes compromise necessary to achieve progress.

I don’t like this bill, not even a little bit. And coat-hangers are a small part of my disdain.

But I want the victory. I will hold my nose and live to fight another day.

Lord, I’m going to sound like the old fart again…but K7 I agree! Legislation is nearly always incremental. Bills for social justice are always incremental!
Hold your nose and get your foot in the door. Universal health care, as proposed in 1912, is a bit too long to not have gotten this close and let die.

I think you are being a bit hard on KK. I think the format was too loose. The only reason I was more prepared was because I got tips from my wife who was debate champ at one time. But still the format limited much of what I wanted to express. I would be willing to put together a few debate tips we can post on the planet for the next one.

My head is with KQ but my heart is with KK
So I voted for KK
Only so that the stronger the voices of KK are,
that will fortify the Position of KQ.
In other words
The more the most progressive voice is broadcast-
the more the middle will move to the left.

I agree with you Patsy. Even though I take a more centrist position on this issue (and others), I am glad there are people further to the left of me fighting for movement toward the left. I often don’t like listening to their complaints about the centrist position, but I’m glad they’re there anyway.

I knew going in the Stupak amendment was the weakness of my position, because it is the worst compromise in the bill. The Art of War says attack your enemies weakness mercilessly and that was the weakness on my side. It think the weakness in the pro side was history and the uninsured and that’s where I attacked his argument. I was also deliberately repetitive with the 15 years history/prediction to leave people with something they would remember from the debate.

I agree with you Adlib. I agree with KQuark’s position so I am predisposed, but KK made one argument that I thought was the best I’ve heard against the bill — which is that we could conceivably take out the best bits — outlawing pre-existing conditions, dumping sick people, caps out payouts, and other important things — and pass those laws independently, without all the compromised bits.

I haven’t changed my position — I’d still like to see the bill passed and the exchange created and I still think this bill is just a foot in the door — as KQ pointed out, that’s how they got Social Security and MediCare in — but if things go very badly and the Stupak becomes a permanent wrench in the works and we end up with nothing…maybe it’s possible to switch to that as a plan B. Optimistic, perhaps.

Absolutely he did have the tougher position based on the folks here as well. I completely understand the principle progressive position in this case but I know the hard realities not only academically but through my life experience.

“But I want the victory. I will hold my nose and live to fight another day.”

Ditto that. And I would add that no major legislation (soc. security, medicare, etc.) has ever been passed in this country that didn’t smell to high heaven on it’s signing. These laws were all amended for the better after the fact, and that is what will happen with HCR IF we can be fucking adults, STOP the in-fighting, and GET THIS BILL THROUGH.

Wow!! that was good! WOW, I lost the site! Can I just vote this time as just good for all? This is a really good story on Sen Casy about the “Stupak add” he released a statement to saying in part:

Senator Casey has been a vocal supporter of health care reform and voted for the HELP Committee bill in July. He supports the public option to increase competition and reduce costs. And he is offering amendments to improve health care for children. Senator Casey thinks that health care reform should not be used to change longstanding policies regarding federal financing of abortion which has been in place since 1976.