Anthony Randolph was my favorite Warrior. As a fan-blogger, I’m allowed to have favorites. And as a fan, those favorites don’t have to be entirely logical. Randolph was a raw, frustrating and inconsistent force during his two years with the Warriors. But he was also ferocious, explosive, relentless and gifted. During his brief time on the team he made plays and changed games in ways that left a far bigger mark on my basketball memories than any box score or game log can capture. On a team long known for taking the conservative option and making the safe pick, Randolph was reckless — and I loved him for it.

The wild streak that made Randolph a favorite of some also likely lead him head first into a clash with coach Don Nelson. We will never know whether Randolph’s relationship with Nelson sealed his fate, what transpired between the two as Randolph fought to scrape together two or three games of consistent playing time, or what Randolph could have become if he had lasted until a new coach arrived. But it’s hard to watch the Warriors’ most highly regarded big man prospect since Chris Webber — not just in the opinion of homer fans, but of those around the league — pack his bags without being haunted by those questions. And those questions are just the tip of the iceberg.

Debating the Randolph trade is likely to devolve into a semi-religious exercise. Those who believe Randolph had the skills to be special will complain that we gave up on him too soon, based on their faith that he could have developed with a different coach and more playing time. Those skeptical of Randolph’s future will demand proof and point to the cold, hard, impressive statistics already logged by David Lee. My last post covered these opposing grounds, so I don’t see much point in rehashing them here. I’m in the camp of true believers who saw Randolph developing into a two-way threat, an intense gamer that could provide some fire next to Curry’s icy cool, and a rare mesh of big and small-man talents that could eventually make him an All Star or more. Time will tell whether I had it all wrong.

More interesting to me, now that the deal is done, are the questions concerning where exactly this leaves the Warriors. This is the biggest deal the team has made since the Baron Davis trade — possibly more significant when you consider the talent departing the squad — and it’s likely to produce some dramatic changes. Here’s what it has left me wondering:

Who is the best defender on the team? Pre-trade, that title likely went to Azubuike or Turiaf. When both were down last season, the Warriors’ PR front stressed how much the team missed them on the defensive end. Now they’re gone — permanently and voluntarily. Randolph’s departure also means the loss of an excellent shot blocker and a quality help defender. So the new leader of the NBA’s worst defense is now … Stephen Curry? Monta Ellis? Ekpe Udoh? Charlie Bell? These aren’t names that inspire confidence that we’re any closer to fixing our number one problem from last season (and beyond): the total inability to come up with stops. Given the names left on our roster, it’s hard for me to assemble a line-up where 4 out of 5 players aren’t defensive liabilities. That’s not how you build a team to make the playoffs, let alone compete in them.

Who plays small forward? Everyone seems to be assuming that the Warriors aren’t done with their transactions. That may be the case, but the Lee deal was a relatively cash neutral swap (it may end up costing Cohan $1-2 mil more this year, but all the new cost in comparison with the expiring or near-expiring deals given up is back-loaded in the years after Cohan’s likely gone). Signing free agent talent — whether that means matching an offer for Morrow or signing someone outright with the mid-level exception — will impose new costs on the team. I’m not sure Cohan drops the money necessary to bring in those additional players. If we do sign anyone, I’d expect more Mikki Moore-like cut-out bargains or training camp walk-ons. If Cohan’s fiscal conservatism holds true, we could be looking at starting the season with Reggie Williams and Vlad Radmanovic as our two small forwards. If Cohan is willing to pay a little, we might also get Morrow on a matched offer.

These options are, at best, question marks. Williams looked good in limited games to close last season, but he played many of those minutes at 2, not 3. He’s undersized for the small forward spot and will be more of a liability on defense against bigger, stronger men that can post him up. I’m optimistic that Williams can be a contributor, but he still has a long way to go to prove he can be a consistent starter, let alone consistent small forward, in this league. The same size and defense concerns apply to Morrow at the 3. Radmanovic has plenty of size, but wasn’t able to hit a shot last season to save his life. The best option for holding down the position both offensively and defensively — Kelenna Azubuike — is now a New York Knick. To make matters worse, we passed up several young small forward prospects in the draft so we could land Udoh, a bench player. The Warriors may enter this season thin at the 3 spot, but it’s a weakness of the team’s own making.

Where does Udoh fit? Assuming the team goes with Lee and Biedrins as the starting 4-5, Brandan Wright, Ekpe Udoh and Dan Gadzuric will be fighting for the remaining minutes. The team seems high on Wright, so I’m assuming he’ll be the first option at 4. Udoh could see some minutes at 5, but at 6-9 and significantly lighter than similar undersized players (such as Turiaf), he’s going to get tossed around. Gadzuric brings the only real size to the position, but is a last-resort option given the gradual devolution of his never-stunning game. In essence, the Lee trade means that we spent our highest draft pick since Mike Dunleavy Jr. to draft a third-string power forward or woefully overmatched center. If the team thinks Udoh is deserving of immediate minutes, than Brandan Wright may be the next Warrior shown the door in Larry Riley’s 11th-hour makeover of the team.

Does Lee play center? Let’s say the Warriors either lose faith in Andris’ ability to play at the end of games due to his foul shooting or move his contract to help ease payload. Then what? The most obvious solution seems to be to slide David Lee to 5, the position he played last year in the Knicks system — and where he was repeatedly destroyed defensively. If Don Nelson remains coach of this team, there’s no reason to believe that we’re done with small ball. Lee at center surrounded by four smaller players will be just as overmatched as Biedrins in the same role. We’ve changed the faces on the court but, until the coach leaves, the system is the same. That system has produced less and less success with each passing year.

What does this mean for our cap? That largely depends on what comes next. If the Warriors do nothing but add players on one year deals, they can enter the summer of 2011 with enough cap space to sign a significant free agent. By adding that free agent to the core of Curry/Ellis/Lee/Biedrins, we might have a chance to build something more competitive a year from now (assuming a new owner willing to pay). The threat to that plan, however, is the Nelson/Riley desire to win now by patching up holes in the roster with average or slightly above-average talent on longer deals. For example, by swapping the expiring deals of either Radmanovic or Gadzuric for a ho-hum small forward on a longer deal, the team could eat up $7-8 mil in valuable cap space — leaving the team with little over the mid-level exception with which to pursue a free agent next summer.

The Lee trade, therefore, has left the interests of Cohan and Nelson/Riley at odds. If Cohan doesn’t add salary by signing free agents, the team is less competitive now but better situated for the future. If Nelson/Riley add players with long-term deals, either by free agency or trading expiring deals, the team is more competitive in the short-term but capped out for any meaningful acquisitions in the long-run. For once, fans’ incentives and Cohan’s cheapness may be aligned. By keeping moves to a minimum for the immediate future, the team’s new owner will hopefully inherit both the assets and the cap space to remake the team to his or her masterplan.

What could have been? The question that always seems to follow Warriors’ transactions. The Warriors have tied their future to David Lee by inking him to an $80 mil, six-year deal. Putting aside the question of whether Randolph could have grown into a great player, the team has lost future flexibility. If the Warriors don’t make that trade — and keep the very affordable, efficient deals of Azubuike and Turiaf — we could have approached this trading deadline armed and ready either to make a play for the biggest names on the trading block or carry our cap space into the summer for a new owner to make a free agent splash. Instead, our on-his-way-out owner overpays for a second-tier power forward who’s former, 29-win team didn’t want to keep around. Whatever room the new owner had to operate when remaking this team just shrank significantly — leaving the question hanging of whether this could be both a basketball move a negotiating ploy to remind bidders that a protracted sale won’t serve their interests.

Ultimately, putting aside all rotation speculation and cap figures, this trade means the end of Randolph, Turiaf and Azubuike as Warriors. That thought leaves me cold. I’ll miss Anthony Randolph’s scowls, Ronny Turiaf’s dances, and Kelenna Azubuike’s quiet confidence. When little else about this team was enjoyable over the past two years, they were. If they being moved to catapult the Warriors into the NBA’s elite, it would be easier to handle. As it stands, my guess is we gave them up for the privilege of moving from the mid to late-lottery. That’s not enough.

Adam Lauridsen

Post navigation

I love this trade. But I don’t think it will make much difference in the outcome over the next few years.

Why I love it..
All the guys we traded were on the bench last year…. injured. DLee has played consistent games / minutes forever. DLee seems to have a real brain, very reasonable talent (All Star), and in the few games I’ve watched with him in it, he plays under control. Only Buke played under control IMHO.

I love players with brains… and talent, who play under control. We’ll see how it all works out.

My real concern: Beidrens. We have nothing at all at center now. Just a hunch: Beans could be through… physically and / or mentally (after the FT debacle). Still can’t understand why folks on this board (including Adam) think that he is tradeable. Maybe I’m wrong on this, but don’t think so. What are his assets? Just a tall skinny center, injured last year, no offensive game, a little slow, worst FTer in the league, but, hey, a nice guy. Who would want him at $9M x 4?

And he’s our best hope at center. No real backup now… RT gone. Yikes.

Still don’t see more than 35 wins on the horizon. Defense wins games. Besides that, there’s been a lot of personnel changes, and we didn’t exactly sign James and Bosh. And all the W players, old and new, will be dealing with a new coach and management soon. Chemistry?… starting over.

It’ll be years til we’re in the playoffs.

believewhat

Arvid/BG,

David Lee’s double double at PF with no defence will have different effect from AB’s double double playing defence from C position. C position is very difficult to fill in and PF should be easier to fill in unless you subscribe to Nellie’s philosophy that PF should hit a 3. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.

Anyway, count me as a guy who thinks this trade made Ws a better team. How much better will depend on who Ws fill up the roster with.

deano

COM: Props for your spot of GSW’s short roster (now 10 players), and the implication that there will be another trade – one that brings back more players than are sent away.

That means a Warrior with a big contract is probably still on the block. The usual suspects would be Ellis ($11MM/yr. for 4 years); and, Biedrins ($9MM/yr. for 4 years).

Hopefully, GSW is smart enough to hold onto the expiring contracts of Radmanovic ($6.9MM) and Gadzuric ($7.2MM) until the trading deadline, when teams sometimes try to dump quality players with big contracts.

Back to Ellis and Beidrins, Ellis seems to be the most vulnerable (because of his mesh problems with Curry), as well as the most tradable (a “near AllStar”).

Hello, is that Memphis on the line? Although Gay is off the block, the Griz just drafted two guys that I think would help the Warriors – SG Xavier Henry and PG Grievis Vasquez. Neither is a SF, unfortunately; but we’ll need to find a SG if Monta is traded and we will need a back-up PG, or Curry will be run into the ground. The other acquisitions would likely be Mayo and Thabeet, to make the salaries match.

Typing that last paragraph makes me hope for a veteran starter at SF in exchange for Ellis. Got to look into that.

Mano de Nada

“I simply want my fellow, long suffering fans to see what a good deal this is…”

Well that’s exactly the problem; David Lee is a good player, but this was a horrible deal, there’s really no argument.

Talk about bait and switch – you can’t even acknowledge that David Lee was an unrestricted free agent, yet we STILL had to, in addition to paying him more than anybody else, and giving him more years than anybody else, we also had to give up three NBA players, one with interesting potential who would be at least a top 5 pick, and a draft pick, for a player who was both on the open market and not coveted by his last team.

Admit it G$ – that’s the definition of a poor deal; paying maximum total price.

IF the dubs MGMT had any cohesive or coherent vision, at all, they could have planned years, or at least months, ago to acquire David Lee, and it would have cost them much less.

David Lee does NOT start over Aldridge, does NOT start over Milsap (one word – defense; it’s nice to have a power forward with some power), does NOT start over Blake Griffin even!

believewhat

David Lee’s stats in 28 games won by Knicks in the games he played. Very impressive numbers, 20pts, 12rebs, 57%FG. There goes the argument that his numbers are with a bad team or he doesn’t contribute in wins etc.. Ws got a good player, if you guys get past AR.

“David Lee does NOT start over Aldridge, does NOT start over Milsap (one word – defense; it’s nice to have a power forward with some power), does NOT start over Blake Griffin even!”

You may be right, but it is close one way or other, didn’t it ?

gmoney

Mano, you crack me up. Obviously we disagree on this one. Let me borrow from JSL’s idea and say, just wait and see. How about that? I can’t argue with someone who writes: “David Lee is a good player, but this was a horrible deal, there’s really no argument.” even though the past two days there has been nothing but argument on the issue.

Moving on.

Blake I hear you, Aldridge, no way. Milsap? Maybe but hes 6’7.

Mopedelic

Mano

I still do not understand the distinction you make about the cost to Ws vs the cost to another team in acquiring Lee (or any free agent for that matter. After all, teams with cap space had to make room (as in getting rid of players) to pursue the free agents they were hoping to get. And some swung and missed (New Jersey). In the end, it is the situation and the money that dictates where a free agent decides to go. I heard Lee wanted to come here (over New Jersey and Minnesota I guess, Yippie!). The price goes up fast for weaker teams (many teams vying for few free agents).

In the end, it is more about the value of Lee vs Randolph, Turiaf and Azu to the roster, than it is the contract (for now, it is still Cohan’s money).

believewhat

gary,

“My real concern: Beidrens. We have nothing at all at center now. Just a hunch: Beans could be through… physically and / or mentally (after the FT debacle). Still can’t understand why folks on this board (including Adam) think that he is tradeable”

Do you know what the likes of 30 year old Haywood and barely played Hakim Warrick got contracts ? If AB averages double double in first two months, he will be good as a W or hot trade commodity for his salary.

Al Oha

#243 G$,

You said, “I simply want my fellow, long suffering fans to see what a good deal this is.”

This is at the heart of the biggest differences that divide Warrior fans over this trade.

I feel in the short run (about the length of time this tag team of mental midgets have left running the asylum), David Lee makes the W’s marginally improved on the basketball court. I feel that with proper guidance AR will become a better and more consistent player. His upside should have been reaped by the W’s. That is not to say D. Lee will not be good for the W’s, although everyone calling him an all star may realize he was a one hit wonder in the East, ’cause it will be harder to make the cut in the West regardless of Stoudamire and Boozers moves to the East. The real issue is what kind of “deal” was this for the W’s.

WisCow and Mano made good points about how Riley may have overpaid for an unrestricted FA. Player-wise, NY had no leverage. But they needed bodies and replaced a fan-favorite player they were going to lose anyways (maybe for nothing), with cheap value talent. One with big upside, two high character and good clubhouse presence.

Salary-wise, Riley definitely overpaid for him, especially, as JSL has correctly pointed out repeatedly, with a new CBA to be negotiated next year. That is why all these FA player’s agents have made sure their players were unrestricted THIS YEAR. True Meir, everyone is overpaid. There are numerous idiot GM’s in the NBA. Doesn’t mean the W’s had to join in and shackle us to another max. long-term contract now.

The biggest issue is that the trade itself may not be complete without the W’s matching up salaries. We still may be forking over more players. Plus, being over the cap, Riley may have something else going to another team, which would have to be looked at as a whole. If it involves Monta, it may not be pretty. If it involves AB, I could live with it but it’s highly doubtful with his injury status. Morrow is as good as gone, regretful. Watson, too, sayonara.

So G$, “a good deal”? How can you NOT count the salary-wise? If it affects who else will be on the roster.

Although, the W’s might be a better team in the immediate, I didn’t think so in the long run. For sure, if they lose any more essential talent as a result.

Stop this runaway FO before they mess up any further.

What is their motivation for using up the next ownership’s ability to dictate what kind of team he will have going forward?

Mano de Nada

My point:

A smart team would have gotten Lee for the same contract (minus a year) on the open market, and kept the talent, both actual and potential, and draft pick (see MIA, CHI, NYK for examples). A smart team does not give up on a 20 year old with rare, if questionable, talent. A smart team doesn’t trade a 14 pick (plus more talent plus another pick) for a 30 pick.

The Warriors are not, however, a smart team.

Charles Barkley was like 6’7″ too yes? No one doubted the power in his PF y’know?

Still I like Lee, just not this deal. Time will tell…

gmoney

Al, I provided a list of players getting paid more than Lee who are clearly inferior. I don’t think we overpaid for Lee. I really don’t. When you look at the contracts Gooden and Hayward got, Lee’s seems extremely reasonably by comparison. You say its a bad deal, but you provide no evidence. I say its good and give you a list of about ten guys who get paid more who are not as good as well as provide two current contracts to players who play the same position which prove the point that 6 for 80 mil isn’t a bad deal. I am not even bringing up the Amare 100 mil deal.

What should a young PF in his prime averaging 20-12 with 4 assists a game get in a contract. Please enlighten me.

gmoney

Mano, I asked you this before, you never answered. How do you know we would have gotten Lee had he become a free agent? How do we know Lee would have even gotten into the open market given other teams’ interest in him. What if the other teams put together a nice package and the knicks pulled the sign and trade trigger with them?

If Lee hitting the open market was a sure thing AND Lee signing with the Warriors in the open market was a sure thing I would totally agree with you, but I just don’t think that is the case.

The Oracle

G$
You don’t think we overpaid for Lee because you choose to ignore 1/2 the game = defense.

If there is anything we should have all learned over the years, it’s that defensive minded teams with quality players compete for championships, and offensive only teams get knocked out in the playoffs by better defensive teams.

That’s the problem with stats and with all star voting in general.

We gave up 3 of our best defenders for an all offense guy.

Sorry, it’s not the formula or a piece to a championship team. Why do you think the Knicks wanted to look elsewhere and weren’t willing to keep their “all star” PF? Why did they feel the need to get someone better?

The answer is defense.

JanG

Read today that Lebron was scared of playing in NY. Felt the fans would turn on him on the biggest stage if he didn’t bring home a championship. Too much pressure is the way I read it. If Lebron would have trouble with the pressure and scrutiny, I fear for the fragile psyche of AR. He could quickly become a fan favorite or he could be mercilessly booed off the court and pray for the first subway out of town.

And Mano, the W’s could not have gotten Lee as a free agent pick up because they needed to shed salary. Heard Mark Bartelstein, Lee’s agent on the radio yesterday. He was asked why Golden State? Said that GS was very persistent in pursuing Lee, on July 1, and he places a lot of importance on going to a team where he’s wanted. Knicks also needed players at several positions. Also felt that playing with Monta, Curry, and AB would make the W’s a playoff team in the first year.

playoffbound

#246 Richard,

Good post… I agree with your points..

The Oracle

Lee coming here proves nothing.

Except that an uptempo all offense no defense, no post moves outside shooting big similar to AH will play for Nelson.

He’s 27 and and all star ard the Knicks didn’t even think about keeping him. Think about that for a 2nd.

We are going for the “great time out” with at least 4 guys, Curry, ME, Lee and AB who struggle to defend their positions against bigger, stronger players.

Lee at 6’0 will probably play center for Nelson and some SG will play PF anyway. IF Nelson is even here next season.

gmoney

Oracle, you seem to not take into consideration the fact that Lee is a premier defensive rebounder. If offense is half the game and defense is half the game, where does rebounding fit in?

I am out for the weekend.

Mopedelic

Mano

A smart team, GSW are not, we can agree on that.

It was not in Warriors stated or apparent intentions to make room for this year free agents. Perhaps they the recent KG and Stoudemire experience (they did not want to come here) led them to believe they had no real shot at the top tier of free agents.

I would have preferred that they give the youngsters more time to prove themselves. It would have made perfect sense. After one more year, you would know about Biedrens, Azubuike, Turiaf and Wright past injury effect on their future. After one year, you would know about the collective agreement. After one year, you would pass on a team with a lot more flexibility to the next owner and coach.

BTW, your point on not trading players based on their draft rank makes no sense (you should not trade Diogu for Ginobli, Kobe for Fuller, etc…)

The Oracle

Lee was intentionally showcased this past season by NY. They expected to replace him with a better PF.

So they played him at Center so he could just shoot outside and score against the bigger slower Centers in the league.

They were willing to allow Lee to be abused defensively, which he was, to pump his stats for a sucker trade.

They found their sucker.

Basically the same thing we did with CM, playing him at PF and suffering on defense, except we couldn’t find a GM as bad as ours to give us promising young players for CM’s inflated offensive stats.

Sorry, we’re the only suckers in the league.

Mopedelic

Oracle

I followed your argument that you should not trade three defense players for one all offense player.

When you explained that defense was the reason the Knicks went with Stoudemire rather than Lee, you lost me. After all, when they signed Stoudemire, they had decided that he was a better option at PF/C than Lee and I do not think the reason was defense. The fact that they managed to get three “defensive” players in the deal for Lee was not known to them at the time of Stoudemire signing.

How people can make the arguement that we lost our three best defensive players for a an offensive player defies reality. For one, I love Azubuike, but do you really believe he is going to come back from his
devastating knee injury? With regard to Turiaf, his continuing to go for blocks rendered him useless as a rebounder and his stats bear that out. And although I think Randolph is a good defender, you can’t put him on the court if he can’t make field goals and turns the ball over.

Lee is not just an offensive player. His rebounding denies possessions, and remaining on offense. And he is a smart defender. He knows how to move his body and where to move to. Lee is a complete player. And by oftaining offensive rebounds, he denies our opponent possessions and provides the Warriors with more shots.

BG

I’m baffled why most of the poster’s on here don’t like this trade. The W’s finally have the All-Star PF they have been looking for since Webber left. GS gave up a Career Back up under sized C, a 6’6″ swingman that is a dime a dozen who may not come back completely healthy and a 20 yr old head case who has a better chance at becoming a Bust than a Star. The NY Media will Destroy AR where he will have a nervous breakdown. David Lee is twice as good as AB who most of you think is a Top player at his position, when healthy. I just think as fan when you follow a Franchise that has been so bad for this many years it’s easy to find the Negative. The W’s finally landed a impact player and most of us are complaining.

BTW, has there ever been a starting lineup with three left handed bigs?

Mike C

As a Knicks fan, I will re-affirm that Lee is a quality player who was much loved and respected. I’m confident that he can be a piece of a winning team. You will like him, although yes, his new salary does seem a bit high.

Part of me wishes that the Knicks would have locked him up last year when they could have signed him to a long term lower-per-year contract. “OK, power forward is squared away, what else do we need”. The fact that they didn’t is largely because Lee was inherited from Isiah Thomas. Donnie Walsh promised to dump salary and go free agent shopping this year. Committing significant money to keep a long-term member of a bad team doesn’t really smell like progress.

I suspect that if the Knicks had signed Duane Wade instead of Amare, they might well have turned around and signed Lee. The only big name FA they could get, however, happened to play the same position as Lee. You can’t pay Lee to be a backup, and their weaknesses are too similar to play them side by side. He had to go. Also what many of you don’t realize (as evidenced by some comments about Randolph and Amar’e starting together) is that the Knicks have two young cheap players already whose best position is forward (SF or PF is still up in the air for both): Gallinari and Chandler. I haven’t read anything about Randolph to suggest that he is a better option then they are at this point. I was hoping at first that Turiaf might be the starting center but the comments about injuries suggest that none of these three will start.

My hunch is that the Knicks see Randolph’s shot blocking (an area of serious weakness) and ball handling and start dreaming of one of my favorite Knicks of the past 20 years. His high-lights are impressive, but he doesn’t have to be a super-star. He just needs to put on a little weight and work on certain skills, and suddenly you have Marcus Camby: exactly what the Knicks are often talking about as the perfect center for their system. Now if only the Knicks had a coach who could teach defense.

Richard

Right on, BG #273.

Do you think the Warriors could get any of these three for the mid-level exception?

1. Quentin Richardson – 6-6, can get you low double digits, plays good defense, and shoots 40% from three.
2. Matt Barnes – 6-6, can get you low double digits shooting near 50% from the field, and plays good defense at small forward.
3. Raja Bell – 6-5, a veteran who is a good defender, and can still shoot over 40% on threes.
4. Shaquille O’Neal – 7-1, can play 20-25 minutes, get some dunks, and can clog up the middle. Combined with Lee and Biedrins, the Warriors wouldn’t be giving up scores of offensive rebounds like they did this past year.

BG

Another BTW, the W’s now have three potential All-Star players. Curry, Monta and Lee.

BG

Richard, I love Barnes. Out of all the guys that left, Matt Barnes upset me the most. No on Shaq. I think he still thinks he’s the “Man” and would demand the ball, which would totally slow the game down.

BG

Richard, I love Barnes. Out of all the guys that left, MB upset me the most. I say no to Shaq. He still thinks he’s the “Man” and would demand the ball and slow the game down. Q would be a nice pickup to provide O off the bench.

BG

Sorry for the Double post.

playoffbound

After watching the Lee interview on Warriors.com and watching some of his clips, Lee had grown on me a lot. I am now in the stance of: I LOVE THIS TRADE. Personality wise, he reminds me of Steph Curry.

I understand the argument that AR could become a superstars, but heck, Billy Owens was suppose to be a superstar and had the AR potential when we traded Mitch Richmond for him (who was already an all star).

I’m calling it right now, we will make the playoffs next year. Curry, Monta, and Lee will be considered for all stars. Amare, and Boozer now in the east… Who is left at power forward in the west? Gazol, Aldridge?

believewhat

Matt Barnes could be a good addition playing along Monta and Lee. I rather see which players will take one year MLE offer for startng SF position to prove themselves like Josh Howard who if pans out will be great addition to the team.

Mano de Nada

“If Lee hitting the open market was a sure thing AND Lee signing with the Warriors in the open market was a sure thing I would totally agree with you, but I just don’t think that is the case.”

Again, the real question would be, why WOULDN’T Lee accept the Warriors offer, if it were the biggest, on the open market?

There’s only one honest answer; because our ORG sucks. All things being equal Lee would rather be on a better team with better management, but given the top $ and max years, what else can his agent say? It’s an entertainment business after all.

Players like LBJ take less money to try for championships, players like Lee take more money whenever they can.

And again, no acknowledgement that, no matter how much you like Lee (and I like him, sure) how the Warriors acquired him and what they paid for him was the kind of dumb deal this ORG has done many times in the past.

When was the last time GSW had a successful FA signing, any takers?

Mopedelic

Mano

Again, the real question would be, why WOULDN’T Lee accept the Warriors offer, if it were the biggest, on the open market?

The answer is that the warriors were in no position to sign Lee without trading players (they had no cap room to speak of). Correct me if I am wrong.

Mano de Nada

My point about draft picks is that good ORGs develop low picks and sell them high (ie David Lee) and bad teams take higher picks and get little back, often through lack of development (ie Anthony Randolph, a 14 pick, plus solid FA Ronny Turiaff, plus solid NBDL talent Kelenna Abuzuike, plus 2nd round draft pick for a talent that was available at the 30 pick).

The Warriors took Baron Davis and turned it into Corey Maggette, which became Charlie Bell and Dan Gadzuric, Stephen Jackson became Vlad Bad, etc.

As Oracle points out NYK showcased Lee last year specifically to increase his value. Did the Warriors showcase Randolph last year?

If we’re lucky we’ll turn Monta Ellis into Jordan Farmar!

Taking talent and devaluing it is what bad teams do.

Mano de Nada

Mopadelic,

A real, smart ORG would NOT have mismanaged their cap knowing that there was a particular player they wanted coming available at a certain time. A smart ORG would have decided months and years ago; the Warriors decided weeks ago, if that.

Especially given how this was THE YEAR for FAs, it’s just another obvious indicator that the Warriors have no direction, no foundation, no leadership and no clue.

Which is why everybody on every side (except employees) wants Cohan gone PRONTO!

The Oracle

Mano,
Exactly. Bad trades, and letting good players walk without getting anything back, along with failing to develop your high draft picks, is how you can stay at the bottom of the league despite getting a high 1st round pick every year.

Al Oha

And with the draft just a mere few weeks ago Riley reaches for a PF even though there are higher rated SF’s on the board, a position where there is a glaring need.

This Golden State Warrior’s “brain-trust” ……………………………,
where devaluing “ours” so we can overpay for “yours”, happens.

Mano de Nada

Sadly the dubs have the recipe for sucking down to a science, despite having some solid talent roll through over the years. Just no one in Warriors HQ can put it together, and ultimately that responsibility, after 17 years, falls on to the most responsible party, the common denominator, the owner, Chris Cohan.

Is there any way we can make him feel less welcome?

The Oracle

This trade is bad for AR and for his development.

One final FU from Nelson to AR.

If he had stayed here, no doubt AR competes for the starting PF position, and likely wins it.

In NY, he is playing behind an alll star PF and his minutes will be limited – again.

This is a very bad move for AR, going from a coach that wouldn’t play him to a coach who didn’t draft him and has a better player in front of him.

believewhat

Oracle,

“Bad trades, and letting good players walk without getting anything back, along with failing to develop your high draft picks, is how you can stay at the bottom of the league despite getting a high 1st round pick every year.”

Curry pick last year and David Lee trade now are exceptions. If you wanted to pick a time to become optimistic, this might be the time. I hope things will turn around for Ws starting this year, with a competetive, yet not playoff team, new owner and new coach.

The Oracle

Again, at least at the PF position, Lee is a short term upgrade.

AR needs major minutes and 2-3 years to develop. He may never get that now and his career may have just taken a turn for the worse.

Young players are like babies. They need major TLC from their organizations and major minutes if they are to grow big and strong and become something other than underdeveloped players. They come into the league too early, leave college too early, and are therefore dependent on their pro coach and organization to give them the development and PT they would have in the past gotten in college.

If they don’t stay in college to develop, and then also don’t get a chance from the coach and team that drafts them, they are screwed imo and have little chance to succeed.

Luckily for most high draft picks, most organizations know these kids are raw after one or two year of college and the GM’s and owners insist that the coach development them, even if they make mistakes and aren’t quite ready for prime time. The coach probably doesn’t often want to go through the hassle and the rookie mistakes of playing these underdeveloped players, he’d rather play a more consistent player with lower upside, the Rob Kurz phenomena with Nelson, but most smart organizations GM”s insist that the coach play the pick, with rare exceptions. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

ESPN’s NBA columnist Chris Sheridan said:
“Horrible trade. If they had to do it all over again, I’d imagine Knicks would have locked up Lee at that same number – 6 yrs, $80 million – and rebuilt from there. Over/under on Knicks victories is 29.”

And in response to a fan who asked “Did the Knicks get good value in the sign and trade?”
Sheridan said “As i said earlier, Knicks got fleeced.”

The Oracle

Nelson has clearly demonstrated that he can win 50-60 games with an offensive, up tempo team.

And get kicked out of the playoffs in the first round for not having any low post scorers.

I don’t think you compete for a championship without defense.

Certainly Stoudemiere and Nash, and their surrounding cast, are better than Curry and Lee. And they couldn’t overcome their lack of defense.

This is a one step forward, two steps back type of trade. I think we will have a chance to outscore many teams. Lee will make us better short term. We may be able to attract a good free agent with Curry, Monta, and Lee on board too.

But is Lee a piece of a championship caliber team. No. Neither is Monta of course, and it’s too early to tell about Curry.

BG

For everyone who thinks this a bad trade,Jon Barry, a guy I respect a lot said on The Fitz & Brooks Show that the Lee trade should propel the W’s to second place in the Pacific Div.

The Oracle

I would like to see Barnes at SF. For $1m a year we should have never let him go imo.

The Oracle

Mopedlic,
I didn’t say that the Knicks went with Stoud instead of Lee for defense. They traded one better offfensive player with no defense for another lesser offensive player with no defense.

D’Antoni runs a similar system to Nelson and to Phoenix, with no defense required.

What I did say is that the Knicks got better defensively with this trade and we got worse defensively.

BG

I agree, Barnes brought a toughness to those teams. If barnes plays the 3, Nellie would play BW at the 4 and Lee at the 5. No doubt.

The Oracle

As I’ve said many times, I think this trade is good in the short term and bad in the longer term.

I could see us making the playoffs by outscoring our opponents next season with Curry, Nonta and Lee. Especially if AB returns to form of two years ago and we find an answer at SF. Nelson knows how to do this and has done it before. But it’s fools gold. It doesn’t win in the playoffs.

But we will be one and done in the playoffs, and Lee’s signing hampers us from building a core that is championship caliber for the next 6 years because we are not focusing on players that are quality on both ends of the court. Both Monta and Lee will struggle to defend their positions, and possibly also Curry and AB. And we don’t even have a clue who our SF will be. We will be good on offense and weak on defense. Good enough on offense to make the playoffs? Maybe. Good enough on defense to win in the playoffs. No.

I was looking forward to seeing AR starting at PF and playing starter minutes. And watching him develop quickly into one of the best PF’s in the league. Unfortunately for him, it’s not going to happen for him in NY either.

BG

Oracle, I disagree that this trade is bad for the long term. Lee is 27 in the prime of his career and getting better every year. You know what you’re going to get out of Lee night in and night out. He brings it. We have all been crying for a PF, now the W’s have one of the better ones in the NBA. AR is 20 and is still two or three years away from being a good player in the league. That’s if he doesn’t become a Bust, which is a possibility playing in New York where the Media is Brutal.

jsl

gmoney: I knew it was a “switch” bet. Just wanted to see if all your crowing was actually backed up by a belief that this idiotic trade would lead to the playoffs — even for just a year (you know, Nelson-Cohan style).

Your answer — NO — speaks volumes.

I get it that while you love Lee, you DON’T really think he’ll make a difference — one that counts, anyway. Well, goodbye $80MM of cap space then, cuz if this trade’s best defender (cf. another W “fan” — the inimitable NBF) won’t now bet on the team making the playoffs, what kind of deal is it really?

And, glad you think Lee is better than Dirk. Smart call there. Well, Dirk’s ALMOST as bad a defender as Lee.

But no one in the West is worse. (If you’ve got a candidate, let’s hear it.)

So WARRIORS! Time to tar and feather our four FO nuts — and ride them outta town on a rail, before they do more damage (a la the Monta-for-Mayo rumors revisited). It’ll be a lotta tar used on the Fat Man — but it’ll be well worth it.