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i'd say that in general they are a waste of time, a chance to throw out some half baked idea or jam that would be far better if it had stayed off the record.

i have nothing in particular against untitled extra songs that appear after the other tracks, and can think of a few i like a lot. theres no real reason for them to be 'hidden' though, unless they are completely out of step with the rest of the album, in which case they can fuck off.

but the ones that really piss me off are when the final track is about half an hour long, with 20 minutes of that being silence. i can't think of a single example where it would be worth the wait to get that last 30 seconds of meh, but i can think of many where the 'hidden' section is a pointless exercise that makes it more difficult for me to enjoy the album. i'm particularly looking at you Blood Mountain.

so, any examples of necessary 'hidden' tracks to prove me wrong? maybe there's some that have an innovative purpose. though its not quite on topic, i like how on Geogaddi by Boards of Canada the final track 'magic window' is a couple of minutes of complete silence which takes the album length to exactly 66 minutes. which fits in nicely with the spooky mood

track on 'Young Liars' by TV on the Radio is a fantastic barber shop quartet cover of 'Mr Grieves' by the Pixies. I can kind of see why they made it hidden - it's completely acapella and it may have drawn more attention to the EP because it has an unusual Pixies cover on it rather than on the merits of the original music itself. But once word is out then....I don't know. Great track though. Plus it doesn't do the whole extended last track thing.

The worst one I can think of is the Stone Roses on 'Second Coming' - track 97 or something. Why bother?

Half they time they are just 30 seconds of stupid "plinky plinky" noises... and if it's a full track then why not just put it ono the album like every other track? Worried it's too shite so bury it and make out you knew it wasn't that good anyway? Think it's soooo good that your fans should have to skip 5 mins of silence to listen to it?

FUCK OFF.

Seriously, it was amusing and quirky the first few times it was done. Then it just got very, very old.

"the actual integrity of an album is important. just putting the best tracks on it isnt necessary the best idea. so hidden tracks let a band get something that they like onto a record"

I see what you're saying. But I think the whole art of creating a great album is selecting the tracks that work together (not necessarily the best) to create an isolated body of work that stands up on its own.

I mean, If I bought a novel and then at the back there were loads of ramblings by the authour along the lines of "well I thought I might end the story this way, but I wasn't sure it was as good as the rest of the book" then I'd be a little bit perplexed.

if i buy a novel, and it has a couple of the writer's short stories or poems at the end, i consider it to be a better purchase, than if, say, the writer had shoehorned the ideas they explore in the poetry into the novel

saying its better value for money is like saying "hey, weve got a really good forty five minute album here, but lets stretch it out to 80 mins with knocked out crap to give the punters more for their pound"

but i dont see how bringing value for money into it has any relevance when talking about hidden tracks. they are a completely different animal to bonus outtakes/singles that you might get on a reissue. and i'm not that much of a fan of those on the same disc as the original album.

Sticking "hidden" bits on the end kinda ruins an album for me. It just grates on my nerves... I like an album to finish and loop round to eh begin. Especially if that album takes you on a good journey...it's like "Oh yeah, THAT'S where I started".