Yes which is why I said "this isn't as true as you think it is". The fat gene is no where near as powerful as people would like to believe. Which is more likely: That Americans, mostly European in origin, have very suddenly evolved to have a 300 pound fat gene in the last 50 years or so, or that people eat way more than they think?

Yes which is why I said "this isn't as true as you think it is". The fat gene is no where near as powerful as people would like to believe. Which is more likely: That Americans, mostly European in origin, have very suddenly evolved to have a 300 pound fat gene in the last 50 years or so, or that people eat way more than they think?

Yeah it doesn't really speak to why fatter people underestimate the calorie intake more, though. Just that they do.

Plus, there are millions of fat people, each with his/her own problems, challenges. Each with his/her own reasons why they got this way. It's not really helpful to just paint all of them with a broad brush.

Or that they are better positioned to hide the truth about the harmful effects of these substances like how they hide the benefits of natural cures for sicknesses that they can supposedly cure through these unnatural drugs and surgeries in order to make more profit for themselves because they only care that people are handing their money over to them and that they continue to do so because if they actually cured people of their symptoms for good then they would lose their customer base.

Right. These 13k people, like everyone who works for a government/hospital/pharmacy/fast food restaurant/any kind of food producer or regulator at all/etc. are all soulless drones who only want to leech at your money, and only your money, even if everyone gets sick and die. They are not people. They don't have families. They don't have friends, relatives and closed ones who get sick. They don't have mothers who die of cancer, or children who suffer from diabetes, or uncles with heart or respiratory problems. They surreptitiously inject harmful, evil, addictive poisons in food to make people (who, of course, do not include their own friends and relatives and children) addicted, diseased, and bankrupt. They don't want the world to know about cures for cancer because hey, none of them will ever get cancer! Since, you know, they aren't people.

I think it is a safe bet the nearly 13,000 employees at the FDA are better positioned to evaluate the studies than someone working on their English paper on obesity is.

Or that they are better positioned to hide the truth about the harmful effects of these substances like how they hide the benefits of natural cures for sicknesses that they can supposedly cure through these unnatural drugs and surgeries in order to make more profit for themselves because they only care that people are handing their money over to them and that they continue to do so because if they actually cured people of their symptoms for good then they would lose their customer base.

In case you haven't noticed, the 'natural food' industry, naturopaths and herbal therapy businesses have made a tremendous amount of cash from promoting natural products at the expense of unnatural ones. There's no difference, at the chemical and pharmacological level, between a natural substance and an unnatural one. Some of (actually most of) the most harmful drugs come from natural sources.

If I became fat I think I'd just not eat for a week or two. It won't kill me and I'd burn it off pretty fast. Seems more logical than eating lots of sugary fruit and exercising for hours every day.

I think I read somewhere that doing that, especially habitually, would only make your body go into survival mode thus store fat it needs for those periods where you go without eating, resulting in you actually gaining weight rather than losing; plus it's unhealthy as your body needs a daily amount of protein, carbs, and fats. But who knows, not everybody reacts the same.

I think I read somewhere that doing that, especially habitually, would only make your body go into survival mode thus store fat it needs for those periods where you go without eating, resulting in you actually gaining weight rather than losing;

Where are you getting your energy from? And the fat? You can't store fat you've already stored. You need a certain amount of energy each day, and if you're not getting it from food than you're getting it from your own fat and muscle. When that runs out you die but by then you'd be a skeleton.

I dunno dude. Made readily available? What about the other stuff that's readily available? THere are organic supermarkets downtown. Malaysian restaurants - vegetarian restaurants, grocery stores, farmers markets, Indian restaurants, Chinese ones, or you could simply eat a healthy diet of food you buy. You're an idiot if you only eat fast food, even if you live in a small town where there's not a lot of options. I don't buy fast food every time i'm hungry, i either don't eat, eat something more interesting than garbage, or eat the food i have at home, which is carefully chosen. If these morons want to eat fast food and get fat - let them kill themselves - it's pathetic. Just because there are shitloads of fast food chains in America, doesn't mean you need to eat that shit.

Having said that, i studied this shit in uni, as well as having watched lots of documentaries and such on the subject. The whole subsides and corn production, and industrialisation of food production - massive chicken factories, cows eating grass covered in shit coz theyre far too packed in, it's definitely got some problems - especially over there - but increasingly elsewhere. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the food production/consumption system, but no one's putting a gun to the head of these morons that are too dumb to read up or give a shit about what theyre putting into their mouths. MSG *DOES* definitely cause cancer, by the way - and it sucks how that's disguised as 621 now in a lot of places, because of the stigma it obviously has in being carcinogenic.

_________________Razorwyre:promo track track from 'Another Dimension' LP"The best speed metal album of the year"

MSG is crap. It makes everything taste the same, and I believe it does bad stuff to you, even if you don't get cancer. There's a shitload of it in various Chinese foods, for example. We, as a family, try to avoid using it, and if I eat something with plenty of MSG in it nowadays, I get restless and feel this sort of itching or tingling feeling in my fingertips. It's not good for you, and there probably is some connection between it and ADHD, allergies and asthma.

MSG is crap. It makes everything taste the same, and I believe it does bad stuff to you, even if you don't get cancer. There's a shitload of it in various Chinese foods, for example. We, as a family, try to avoid using it, and if I eat something with plenty of MSG in it nowadays, I get restless and feel this sort of itching or tingling feeling in my fingertips. It's not good for you, and there probably is some connection between it and ADHD, allergies and asthma.

Also, it's easy to avoid. Just don't eat any industrial crap.

Yeah it's bad stuff. They certainly do like to pile that shit into chinese food and stuff like flavouring sachets, instant noodles and garbage like that. Do they call it 621 over there?

Also by the way, my rather extensive reading on related subjects over the years has definitely shown corruption, malpractice, indifference within bodies like the FDA. It's like the government - lobby groups can and do buy influence. Sorry to sound like a conspiracy theorist. I'd like to provide links, but if you read peer reviewed journals, study geopolitics, development studies, international relations, etc, etc it's all out there.

_________________Razorwyre:promo track track from 'Another Dimension' LP"The best speed metal album of the year"

Well, I must check the E-code on MSG, but it's usually spelled out on the packages anyway, coded or not, and many manufacturers of cold cuts and bread, for example, make it a point these days to use "no E-codes" in their marketing, if they use no additives that fall under the European additive rules. I buy those almost exclusively.

I also tend to avoid foreign meat because I don't want to eat hormones or antibiotics I don't need. Those are heavily regulated and practically banned here, but I have no way of knowing what they do in Netherlands or Denmark, for example. South American beef and NZ mutton are something I occasionally use, but otherwise it's local all the way. That has the added benefit of being relatively humane, the Finnish animal well-being is presumably better than in many other countries, because we have plenty of space and the animals often get a chance for grazing, if not for other reasons.

I used to be very allergic to it, but it hasn't had any effect on me since I was a kid.

soul_schizm wrote:

Yeah it doesn't really speak to why fatter people underestimate the calorie intake more, though. Just that they do.

Plus, there are millions of fat people, each with his/her own problems, challenges. Each with his/her own reasons why they got this way. It's not really helpful to just paint all of them with a broad brush.

There are fat people everywhere, even in much healthier societies.

Ok, explain to me why the mysterious fat gene that plagues fatties and allows them to be 300 pounds on a diet that a thin person of the same height will gain no fat on only exists in America (and seems to be coming into existence recently in countries which have had an increase in cheap, shitty fast food).It's quite simple. People are not good at calculating the amount that they eat. And yes, we all know that one guy who eats shit and never gains a pound, or vice-versa. The thing is, we're not that person, and we don't see them for 24 hours a day. And in my experience, a closer examination to their lifestyle generally reveals that their bodyfat is far more closely linked to the amount they eat and how active they are, instead of the dreaded fat gene, crutch of the self-control impaired. For example, I have several friends that complain that no matter how much they eat, they can't bulk up. Except, from the size of the meals they eat, they don't actually eat that much and they lead very active lives, kayaking, soccer, gym, etc. Having come from a "fat family", and having been chubby myself, I can certainly say that at least in my own experience, and from what I have observed from others, is that how much you eat and how physically active you are hold far more power on your bodyfat percentage, not the American gene.

Also by the way, my rather extensive reading on related subjects over the years has definitely shown corruption, malpractice, indifference within bodies like the FDA. It's like the government - lobby groups can and do buy influence. Sorry to sound like a conspiracy theorist. I'd like to provide links, but if you read peer reviewed journals, study geopolitics, development studies, international relations, etc, etc it's all out there.

You do not sound like a conspiracy theorist at all. It is obvious that corruption will exist in the world, but that is a far cry from saying that the corruption or indifference is part of a systemic plot to intentionally harm people. Lobbying is really a separate issue from whether there is a conspiracy in the food industry, and since you read extensively on the issue you know it is a complicated process that can, but does not necessarily, include any corrupt activities. Some people argue that Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission is essentially allowing corruption, but I think that would be a different thread of discussion.

Also, what journals do you typically find people read in New Zealand? The American Political Science Review is the common stalwart over in the states, but I suspect some food sciences journals or something in the political science field more focused on agencies would be more likely to cover these administrative issues.

I have lost 25 lbs this summer just because I bike at least 30K 3 times a week and eat a lot better. People just need to get off their asses and do something about it. Stop eating garbage if you don't want to feel like garbage. As mentioned earlier pasta is cheap and pretty filling and good for you; where I live I could get 4 dinners worth with under 10 dollars. And if you don't like eating store bought tomato sauce all the time learn to make your own cheese/cream and tomato sauces and flavour them your own way. That takes 20 minutes a batch if you take the short cuts. Another awesome thing is smoothies: Buy some frozen fruit, yogurt, OJ or Apple Juice and honey and a hand blender for 20 dollars and boom, excellent home made smoothies that juice places charge you 10 dollars for. Very filling and healthy.

I was looking to see if there was already a post like this, so I'm just going to reinforce this and add some.

Yeah, people for centuries have eaten bacon, butter, and cooked with lard, put people also had to (physically) work harder back in the 'ole days. It processed shit full of extra chemicals and preservatives that are so unhealthy for us, I'd RATHER eat something naturally fatty than say something that Hostess makes. And yeah, healthy stuff like fruits and veggies are cheap (well, depending on where you're livin') and can be pretty tasty, or at least made to be tasty. A damn good, satisfying meal idea is:1 can mixed veggies2 cans of chickenSome may, some mustard, and bam, one tasty meal that's just fucking loaded with vitamins, minerals, fiber, and protein. That's like a two dollar meal right there. And of course, you're always going to look like/feel like poo if you don't exercise, so put down the tray of deep-fried-chocolate-filled-lard cakes, log off wow, and maybe take a walk...to the gym.

MSG is indeed evil. I tend to maintain a pretty healthy diet, and every time I end up eating MSG (knowingly or unknowingly), I almost always end up with a 24-hour headache. That stuff is nasty, and I'm sure it doesn't do good things for your nervous system. No wonder so many Chinese people tend to be twitchy.

Having lived in some fairly low-income neighborhoods, I can definitely say that your living circumstances/area can play a heavy role in your dietary options. In a lot of these areas, you can't just walk a few blocks and go buy some healthy food. In fact some of them don't have markets at all; they've simply got either fast food joints or convenience stores that stock a meager handful of produce items (if you're lucky) and have normal staple foods at a marked up price (remember, they're convenience stores). For a lot of low-income people, it's a whole separate commute to be able to get to a decent market and back, and when you're already low on cash and time, that becomes really burdensome. Not to mention the fact that general supermarkets such as Safeway (here in the States, at least) tend to not be affordable anyway; their meat and produce is overpriced and mediocre in quality. If you have children to feed and you're overworked and running on a shitty wage, you run out of healthy options pretty goddamn quickly. It's not always as simple as "eat healthy, dum-dum!"

That said, education and ignorance do play large roles at times. It's shocking how little people in low-income/high-ignorance areas understand about nutrition and food. Not to mention the prevalence of xenophobia. Years ago, I lived in a house with four other roommates in a very run-down area. There were no markets close at hand, and actually hardly any food options whatsoever. Extremely luckily for us, some altruistic souls had set up a community garden in the neighborhood that sold its organic produce two days a week, and there was also a farmer's market that had been organized by similar people to come every Sunday, specifically to benefit low-income residents that otherwise had little access to healthy food. Being health-minded and living with natural foods-type roommates, we were naturally buying from these outlets all the time, as they were selling organic produce at insanely cheap prices. We were eating wonderfully while our neighbors were subsisting on white bread and Lucky Charms and begging us for spare fruit. There was a family downstairs that had about ten children, all told, and despite the fact that we informed the father about these awesome healthy food options that he could use to feed his massive brood of children for retardedly low prices, I don't think he ever took advantage of them, making lame excuses (despite the fact that the garden was literally two blocks away) and generally just disregarding what we were trying to tell him. We only ever saw a handful of other neighbors at these outlets every week, and it was a really sad sight because they had no idea what they were missing out on. This great food was being sold at the same prices (or even more cheaply) that they must've been paying for bullshit packaged goods at the corner store, yet because they didn't have the simple nutritional knowledge or courage to shop elsewhere(?), they just let the benefits go entirely to waste.

TL;DR: The powers of ignorance and habit are not to be underestimated...some people will eat from the swill trough no matter what's available, simply because it's what they know.

Back on topic, I very much doubt that there's an American government conspiracy to force people to eat fast food. Food isn't addictive (not going to touch on the whole psychological addiction thing though). Basically, people tend to prefer the taste of fatty foods (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/12/011204073223.htm), and if you think about it that has a whole slew of evolutionary advantages. Fats are the most efficient source of energy compared to proteins/carbs (having more than twice as much energy for the same mass), so having access to fatty foods had distinct advantages to primitive man's ability to survive and reproduce. Until fairly recently being fat was regarded as a sign of wealth and prosperity for those very reasons. I'm sure in some countries it still is.

That said, you can't undo millions of years of evolution in the 50 or so years there's been more than plentiful amounts of food in some countries (such as the US). Therefore, obesity rates are skyrocketing because (shocker) people like to eat food they find tastes good, we're biologically programmed to think those fries and big mac are delicious, AND (this is the big one), very few people are getting adequate amounts of exercise.

When you also consider the amount of misinformation about dieting and maintaining ones weight (look at this thread alone), and the fact that fast food is cheap (or at least takes less effort than healthier alternatives), is it really necessary to look for some magical conspiracy? Surely the answer's pretty obvious as to why there's so many fat people in developed countries.

Tl;dr: We've evolved to find fatty foods delicious. Add to that a large dose of ignorance and misinformation about how to eat correctly, and a lot of people doing little to no exercise, and tada, by their powers combined you have an obesity 'epidemic'.

Quote:

TL;DR: The powers of ignorance and habit are not to be underestimated...some people will eat from the swill trough no matter what's available, simply because it's what they know.

Ok, explain to me why the mysterious fat gene that plagues fatties and allows them to be 300 pounds on a diet that a thin person of the same height will gain no fat on only exists in America (and seems to be coming into existence recently in countries which have had an increase in cheap, shitty fast food).

I'm not saying it's only a genetic thing, only that genes also play a role along with everything else. If you take a set of circumstances, and put 10,000 people into that same set of circumstances, some will remain thin and some will have varying degrees of weight problems.

You seem to be trying to apply an argument to me that I am not making. I'm not absolving anyone of personal responsibility and I'm not denying that most people are fat because they simply eat too much and aren't active enough. Exactly how fat they get will depend on a multitude of factors, including simple genes.

Ok, explain to me why the mysterious fat gene that plagues fatties and allows them to be 300 pounds on a diet that a thin person of the same height will gain no fat on only exists in America (and seems to be coming into existence recently in countries which have had an increase in cheap, shitty fast food).

I'm not saying it's only a genetic thing, only that genes also play a role along with everything else. If you take a set of circumstances, and put 10,000 people into that same set of circumstances, some will remain thin and some will have varying degrees of weight problems.

You seem to be trying to apply an argument to me that I am not making. I'm not absolving anyone of personal responsibility and I'm not denying that most people are fat because they simply eat too much and aren't active enough. Exactly how fat they get will depend on a multitude of factors, including simple genes.

My bad, I mistook you for one the moronic Fat Acceptance movement.

Also, looks like Chronolith has once again been laughed out of his own thread.

How can this be true when my friends father had to undergo expensive bypass surgery to cure the the harmful effects of McDonalds food that he became addicted to?

Are you saying it's the government's fault that somebody became "addicted" to McDonalds?

It's hilarious how people avoid responsibility, huh? And not only that, but confuse two completely separate entities. McDonalds is a private corporation and has nothing to do with the government. If his friend's dad really wants to blame someone else than himself for being "addicted to McDonalds", then he should blame McDonalds (but of course he really shouldn't since McDonalds didn't exactly put a gun to his head, hell, I haven't been to a single McDonalds since I was 10 years old, no hyperbole), not the friggin' government.

Also, I feel dirty for saying so, but Expedience brings up two (!) good points; one, "natural" does not mean better or healthier (arsenic and lead are perfectly natural substances, but you can bet they're a lot more harmful than any white pill developed in a lab), and two, the "natural cures/food" industry is an excessively lucrative one, a billion-dollar industry, so the whole accusations of greed towards the pharmaceutical and food industries is hilarious if you're going to defend them. The only difference between this industry and "big pharma" is that unlike "big pharma", they don't have empirical evidence to back up their claims, nor do they have strict regulations controlling them so they are free to peddle whatever garbage woo they want with almost no consequences whatsoever.

_________________

Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

What I'm trying to get at is that people shouldn't have to work as hard as they do just to sustain a comfortable form of living. I do believe that that the government and politicians believe that they are doing good for the society, but the secret society's who control all of it know damn well what they are doing.

I slightly disagree with Morrigan there: stuff needs to be natural, but it also needs to be a part of the human animal's natural diet. MSG (in industrial dosages), lead arsenic, transfats and others are not parts of it. Hell, I'd even say grains and potatoes aren't, but that's a matter for a different discussion. In fact, we are supposed to be squatting on a forest floor, turning over rocks and eating the bugs under them, cracking nuts and picking fruit and berries, and raiding bird nests and killing rodents and lizards; a lucky tribe might occasionally find a dead carcass of something, and you'd all want to have the liver or the brain. And if it gets bad, eating random mushrooms, anything green or even digging for worms would be natural. That's natural, not lead, arsenic, white toast, coffee, beer, MSG, coloring additives, chocolate, refined sugar, corn syrup, canned cream or cheese, milk beyond the age of three, or even anything deep fried.

It is an unfortunate fact that the world would not be able to sustain anything close to the current population, if we wanted to return to such a lifestyle.

However, the amount of crap sold to people with unhealthy lifestyles with claims of health is incredible. Here, the last three or five years have been pretty much dedicated to "digestion yoghurts". What a nice thought: eat unhealthy stuff such as half a pig, get constipated, eat some processed dairy, and crap out a healthy colonful. Or get more "resistance", or some damn "probiotes" or whatever.

Aren't you talking about foraging rather than diet? I think you're referring to organic food, which is more or less the same as the crickets you half-nakedly chase after to put in your cabbage taco with greenbeans, dried peppers, cumin, coriander, and coconut milk seasoning.

But hey, you've got another natural thing going if you want to eat random mushrooms. Natural selection that is.

If people are willing to shell out their money on shitty fast food burgers, then there's nothing wrong with McDonalds giving people the product that they want. It's not like we're forced to eat fast food.

Chronolith, there is plenty of research on MSG, and I even told you where to look for it and that the sources are not just from the government but from all interested parties. I hope you do your English paper on your own though instead of irritating other people into doing research for you.

Burden of proof is yours, not his. You are the one who needs to prove it's addictive.

Apteronotus wrote:

Chronolith, there is plenty of research on MSG, and I even told you where to look for it and that the sources are not just from the government but from all interested parties. I hope you do your English paper on your own though instead of irritating other people into doing research for you.

This.

_________________

Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Instead, I wager that you will sit complacently satisfied that you know everything in the world is really simple and its just a conspiracy of bad guys that conveniently makes it pointless for you to ever open up a book.

Hmm, huge world conspiracy being really simple eh? That's almost as funny as me never opening a book :lol::lol: