As is typical, costs are usually understated and opportunities/savings are overstated. Also, those savings are projected over a long period of time. Things change over time....programs overrun, factors not originally accounted for come in to play, plans diverge, etc... And when policies start changing/being ammended, the original estimates are usually no longer valid.

I don't have the summary you seek but would also be interested in seeing one. Of all the info I've seen/read/heard thus far, coupled with the blitzkrieg passage that is continually attempted for reform of this magnitude, I dislike it more and more.

If this is passed in it's current form, our generation is going to pay MORE.

Each successive generation is going to pay significantly more than the previous for all of the entitlement programs.

They were supposed to release the full bill 72 hours before the vote so people had time to look at it (HAHAHAHAHA!!!!) Good luck reading and understanding over 2400 pages of legalese, technical jargon and plain old jibberish in the passed Senate bill, plus the 150+ pages in the "reconciliation" bill.

While I think the bill tries to address some needed reforms, I just don't know how it can possibly be paid for without staggering new taxes. Even if the CBO's estimates are right on (or even conservative), $1 TRILLION has to come from somewhere. And where they get the "savings" from is beyond me. I think that is an accounting shell game designed to make people think that the bill generates a net savings for the government. Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

The current Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare programs are already on track to bankrupt this country, so what's covering another 35 million people?

The Heritage Foundation (which, make no qualms about it, is a conservative think tank) has a good blog that combines a lot of good info - including original sources and links to legislative language. You can find their health care site here: http://fixhealthcarepolicy.com/

...The current Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare programs are already on track to bankrupt this country, so what's covering another 35 million people?

Which begs the question. How does Germany do it? Their social programs are better than ours, they pay their manufacturing workers more (a lot more, $50 an hour compared to $30 in the United States -- pay, taxes and benefits), yet they are the second largest exporter the world. And while their budget is not pretty, it is certainly a lot better looking that ours.

Which begs the question. How does Germany do it? Their social programs are better than ours, they pay their manufacturing workers more (a lot more, $50 an hour compared to $30 in the United States -- pay, taxes and benefits), yet they are the second largest exporter the world. And while their budget is not pretty, it is certainly a lot better looking that ours.

I worked for UPS in Germany for a year in the late 80's. I got paid in DM (before the Euro). My take home pay was about 40% of gross. That's how they pay for it. Plus, IMHO, the Germans are in generally better health than Americans. While there are obese Germans to be sure, the problem is not nearly as bad there as it is here.

While I believe it is in everyone's best interest to reform health care, this bill has way too much pork and special provisions. No state should get special treatment just to get the vote of their congress member(s).

Which begs the question. How does Germany do it? Their social programs are better than ours, they pay their manufacturing workers more (a lot more, $50 an hour compared to $30 in the United States -- pay, taxes and benefits), yet they are the second largest exporter the world. And while their budget is not pretty, it is certainly a lot better looking that ours.

How does Germany do it? Simple, they charge significantly higher taxes, duh!

The first chart shows the average tax rate for a single person making $40,000 with no kids in each country. Germany is at 38% while the US is at 24%. Quite a difference.

The second chart shows the average tax rate for a person with 2 children making $40,000. Germany is still significantly higher than the US. Real easy to provide more services when you take more of someone's money.

Personally, I'd rather decide how to spend my money instead of allowing the government to decide for me....

The first chart shows the average tax rate for a single person making $40,000 with no kids in each country. Germany is at 38% while the US is at 24%. Quite a difference.

The second chart shows the average tax rate for a person with 2 children making $40,000. Germany is still significantly higher than the US. Real easy to provide more services when you take more of someone's money.

Personally, I'd rather decide how to spend my money instead of allowing the government to decide for me....

Yes they pay more. But they also get more. And the point remains that Germany pays its factory workers more. Keep in mind that $50/hour labor cost in manufacturing as compared to our $30. Would you rather be a 10 year factory worker in a BMW factory or a 10 year factory worker in Detroit?

And they are still running a huge trade surplus while we are shipping jobs to third world countries.

Yes they pay more. But they also get more. And the point remains that Germany pays its factory workers more. Keep in mind that $50/hour labor cost in manufacturing as compared to our $30. Would you rather be a 10 year factory worker in a BMW factory or a 10 year factory worker in Detroit?

And they are still running a huge trade surplus while we are shipping jobs to third world countries.

I'm not sure where you are getting the figure that German factory auto workers get $50/hr vs. the US average of $30. According to this article, the average BMW factory worker makes 40,000 Euros. They say that is equivalent to $60,000 US, but at the current exchange rate, it is more like $54,000.

Assuming a 35 hour work week (standard in Germany), that works out to 1,820 hours worked for $54,000. That is $29.67/hr, which is no where near $50/hr. Even if we run the figures at a generous $60,000, it isn't anywhere near $50/hr ($32.97.)

According to the UAW here: http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php , the average UAW assembler working for GM made $27.81/hr, while more skilled workers earned $32.32/hr. If we assume there are 2 assemblers for every "more skilled" worker, the weighted average is roughly $29.31/hr.

So in the end, to answer your question, I would rather be a 10 year Detroit auto worker making nearly the same as my BMW counterpart, but only paying 24% taxes vs. 38%. Especially when you factor in UAW benefits that are above and beyond that wage rate, where the BMW worker is paying higher taxes to get his government benefits. So in the end, the GM worker is coming out much further ahead. Which is really the reason the jobs are being sent overseas; our labor, dollar for dollar and hour for hour is much more expensive.

And one final thought, you say "sure they pay more, but they get more." More what? If you don't use the services the government provides, are you getting more? If you aren't sick and don't go to the doctor very often, are you getting more for your health care dollar? A young adult with no family to support that doesn't get sick very often can carry just "major medical" and pocket the difference in premiums.

Again, personally, I'd rather choose where I spend my OWN money instead of someone else taking it from me to spend how they see fit. It is even worse when it is billed as "for your own good".....

According to the UAW here: http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php , the average UAW assembler working for GM made $27.81/hr, while more skilled workers earned $32.32/hr. If we assume there are 2 assemblers for every "more skilled" worker, the weighted average is roughly $29.31/hr.

No wonder GM went went into bankruptcy protection with salaries like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scollins

Again, personally, I'd rather choose where I spend my OWN money instead of someone else taking it from me to spend how they see fit. It is even worse when it is billed as "for your own good".....

You have to consider those that aren't in the position to pay as well.

You have to consider those that aren't in the position to pay as well.

I disagree, and that is why there is such a division in this country on such issues. The ultra-liberals think that everyone needs to be taken care for every need and want, and the ultra-conservatives think people should take care of themselves with no help from government at all. I'm most certainly more towards the conservative end of the spectrum on this.

For the past two years my mom has had her hours cut at her company (engineering and manufacturing.) She's been there for over 20 years. Right now she has to take 4 furlough days per month. She doesn't expect that to improve in 2010. Fortunately (or not?) for her, she will retire shortly at age 65 (formerly the mandated retirement age, now 67 I believe.) She says she is not really in a position to afford retirement just yet, even with the government pension plans, but she really doesn't have much choice. And she by no means "lives large", not even close.

I disagree, and that is why there is such a division in this country on such issues. The ultra-liberals think that everyone needs to be taken care for every need and want, and the ultra-conservatives think people should take care of themselves with no help from government at all. I'm most certainly more towards the conservative end of the spectrum on this.

The 'me' attitude has to and seems to be changing in the US. If a single payer system is good enough for american service people it should be good enough for all citizens. Quality of life would be much better if people didn't have to worry about loosing their home if they land in the hospital.

Equal access to healthcare should be the right of all people, not to the privileged.

The 'me' attitude has to and seems to be changing in the US. If a single payer system is good enough for american service people it should be good enough for all citizens. Quality of life would be much better if people didn't have to worry about loosing their home if they land in the hospital.

Equal access to healthcare should be the right of all people, not to the privileged.

Your Service Member example isn't really a good one, since the government is the employer in this case. In that sense, then the health coverage from my employer is a "single payer" system.

Also, my dad has government health care through the VA. His experience hasn't been that good, as he spends a ton of time just trying to get services. If the government can't even manage this single payer system on a small scale, they will fail miserably on a large scale.

For the past two years my mom has had her hours cut at her company (engineering and manufacturing.) She's been there for over 20 years. Right now she has to take 4 furlough days per month. She doesn't expect that to improve in 2010. Fortunately (or not?) for her, she will retire shortly at age 65 (formerly the mandated retirement age, now 67 I believe.) She says she is not really in a position to afford retirement just yet, even with the government pension plans, but she really doesn't have much choice. And she by no means "lives large", not even close.

We are recovering from a worldwide economic crisis. You can get similar headlines for every country, and we both know that the situation in the United States is very ugly.

Germany entered the current crisis from a position of strength, and they remain the foundation of the Euro. Their GDP per capita is $44,729 (virtually the same as the United States). Their unemployment rate is 7.5%, considerably below ours. They are the world's second largest exporter, in spite of having labor costs greater than the United States.

Germany is running a deficit of 3.3% of GDP. Ours is pushing 10%, which puts us in the class with Greece.

China can not threaten them by making noise about dumping their bonds.

Im going to have to give up some of my insuranse because this piece of shit president of ours is going to tax what I have. Basically its the cadillac tax they will impose in a few years. My insurance is $38,000 a year for my family. My wifes employers pays pays the majority of it as we pay $300 a month for what we have. We are covered for everything. And my co pays are very low. However my tax on this will be approximatly $6,000 a year. Anyone who has insurance that is above $27000 will pay a cadillac tax. So this socialist scumbag will charge me $6,000 a year extra so that i have type A insurance. Then my $6000 will help pay for all those looking for a handout and for all the illegal aliens who dont pay a fuckin penny into this country. No one is asking whether I want to donate my hard earned money. This new government just takes takes takes and feels everyone has to be equal. No we are not equal. I work damn hard, my wife works damn hard and I dont want to sound snoddy or pompus but I dont think I need to be on the same level as someone making $25K-$35K. Therefore I have to be punished for being succesful. Yeah that a great thing to teach my kids. Kids dont try to be succesfull because you will get you hard earned money taken away from and distributed to losers who were let into this country who dont help it grow finacially in any way. Youre better off going on welfare because that way you will receive all the food you want, medical you want and finacial security.

Which begs the question. How does Germany do it? Their social programs are better than ours, they pay their manufacturing workers more (a lot more, $50 an hour compared to $30 in the United States -- pay, taxes and benefits), yet they are the second largest exporter the world. And while their budget is not pretty, it is certainly a lot better looking that ours.

Where did you get that Germans pay their auto workers $50 an hour. I did Euro delivery and spoke to a few workers as well as the tour guide at the plant in Munich the most expensive city in Germany to live and their salaries start at $17 Euro which equals to $22.98 an hour. Add some money for health care and that still does not add up to $50 an hour. I doubt their health care adds up another $37.02 per hour.