Who put's the " night riding not allowed " flyers @ Durham ?

It is my understanding that night riding is permitted at Durham so I am not sure why the flyers stating your not allowed to night ride at Walker Property are being put on our cars while we are in a different forest tract ?

This effort is being undertaken by a local TRCA employee. Naturally it does not apply to riding at Durham Forest, but it is widely known that people will start there and cross the road to Walkers Woods and Glen Major.

This is nothing surprising. We've talked about this before, on this forum and in other mailing lists. If you'd like to find out a bit more check the DMBA website in the next couple of days. I'm posting up details there. I would have done it already, but I've been otherwise occupied and didn't have time to post things up yet.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

Not everyone rides @ Walker at night either so I am not sure of the point but is this endorsed by TRCA ?

The wording is a bit harsh ( Tresspassing, Privelage you never had etc. ) My suggestion would be to post something at the entrance points to Walker and leave people's cars alone ?

The TRCA should know that there is / are a very responsible mtb user group up there. Not everyone is paintable with the same brush. I get a little testy when it comes to this type of campaign because this is how it started at the Rouge several years ago and ended up with the air being consistently let out of tires that where on cars with bike racks ( wether you where biking or not )

On a side note if anyone is in the GTA ( Danforth area that wants a car ride to Durham Tues / Thurs ) PM me. no charge if you can get to my house at the start this way we can use the HOV lanes which is mint and very quick.

This is an effort of the TRCA. So you could say they "endorse" it. The point is so that you are aware of the ban in Walker Woods & Glen Major.

The wording is strong on purpose. They didn't want to leave any doubt in anyone's mind that they are serious about this. There are signs at the trail heads, but many people who use the trails don't check the trial head before they ride. Hence this idea to put them on windshields.

This is the communication phase, if people respect the ban then the TRCA won't have to take the next step and actively enforce it.

I don't think it will get to the point of air being let out of tires. If it does then the GMWW stewardship committee will have to deal with that.

Please don't shoot the messenger here. I don't like this ban any more than you do. In fact a letter was sent to the TRCA by the DMBA with suggestion on how to work together to avoid a ban. I have not seen the response yet (I'm told there is one) but it goes without saying that they didn't like any of those ideas since a ban is being put in place.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

Disclaimers:
1. I suspect that the vast majority on the TRCA have nothing against us, and I know that the DMBA does everything in it's power to defend our interests, so no one should take offense who doesn't deserve to.
2. For some reasons, this rant is pun-riddled. Sorry, they weren't all intentional.

I read the flyer. They anticipated the FAQs quite well, and the answers all sound very reasonable, however the nagging feeling that I'm sure many have in reading it, is that it's specifically an attack on mountain biking (who else really was in there at night), probably pushed through by so-called stewards who have a Pulaski to grind against us. I wonder if I'm the only one who has that slippery slope feeling about the TRCA and mountain biking:

Fred's Farm, Walker's Wood's race series (first approved, then denied just before it was to begin), Durham Durango no longer allowed in Walker's Woods or Glen Major, ban on night riding (oh, okay...ban on all night activites now being enforced, sorry). There's no doubt in my mind that there are some who would be overjoyed to have a complete ban on mountain biking in there (and everywhere else) and I suspect that at least one of these "sqeaky wheels"-ooh what an ironic metaphor- is actively waging a step by step campaign to do just that. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

Here's a FAQ I'd like to see answered.

Since much of the night-riding takes place in the fall and is typically done by 9:00 or 10:00 (when there is still light in June and July), isn't there some room for compromise? Wouldn't a partial ban be reasonable? How about night riding only Mon-Thurs with an 11:00 P.M. curfew or something like that? That does leave 8+ hours of darkness. Or even designating just 1-2 days/week that it is allowed? What's that you say? Squirrels don't know what day it is? Yes, but they manage to survive in downtown Toronto, I'm sure they can put up with a couple of dozen mountain bikers riding for 4-6 out of the approximately 84 hours of November darkness spread out over 100s of hectares. Yup, that's my question. (and yes, I know it's not just the squirrels)

Something else I found on the DMBA website:

Postponed: Our president recently had a bad cycling accident and this has forced us to postpone our AGM until he has recovered enough to attend. Sorry for the inconvenience. We'll post details at a later date.

Did you go to the DMBA site and read the flier? That is admittedly sparse on details. More detailed communication will be released and when it is I'll post it up. Stay tuned.

Good point. Just read the flyer. The points make sense, though I don't really buy the flora and fauna bit 100% - animals are tougher and more adaptable then we'd like to give them credit for.

My suspicions are the reasons fall in roughly this order (a) local property owners annoyed with lights & noise (b) insurance (c) drinking, partying and fires and (d) flora & fauna. I might be wrong though, and this is not to say that these aren't legit concerns.

Does anyone know the fauna in specific they are concerned about? I find this fascinating. I mean if we have deer, foxes and coyotes in the Don I wonder what y'all have there

you know whats the saddest part of all of this ......

mountian bikers are going to get the short end of the stick and it's our own fault.

Last week I was in durham night riding and I was coming out of the trail at the top by the radio tower then heading back in to the start area of the thurs night races and we stopped as we saw a train of lights in walker coming down towards the gate / parking lot. There where 8 guys riding with nice bright HID lights. Isn't there enough trail to ride at Durham without pushing the envelope whether we agree with the ban or not ? ( not one of these guys where under 40 )

Flash back to 3 weeks ago 2 guys are there at around 4 p.m. in the main Durham lot and they have a bunch of kids with them ranging I guess from about 10 to 15 it had rained pretty hard during our ride and we where leaving when these kids decided to have a skidding contest. This seems pretty trivial but all it does is play into the stereo type that mountain bikers trash trails especially when the lot was full with not only bikers but hikers and equestrians. This is not a issue that lies soley with the kids as I see loooong skid marks all over the trails on a regular basis.

I said it before and I will say it again we have it pretty good here compared to ther areas I have travelled to that have bans in place and we need to protect it. We have to educate users on trail ettiquette not only for non bikers but other bikers as the trails in this area are all non-directional.

There has not been a race in Durham for a while now any reason why we have power gel wrappers in the woods ? It does not matter if it is caused by trail runners or trail bikers but why can't you pack out what you bring in ?

There is a small group that do a lot of advocacy work on our behalf and I for one have not done enough given the amount I use this trail system and I just want to thank Jason and others for stepping up.

Just try and imagine for all of us who are regualrs up here where would we go if we had no walker and durham forests ? we have no dagmar, no rouge, no seaton do you think ravenshoe can handle the volume ? so it would be the ganny or we travel west to kelso or albion ?

Alrightey then. Flora and fauna they say? As an ordinary taxpayer having a passing familiarity with biology, am I to believe that Calvin cycle of the flora gets *&($&#ed up by HID lights?!?! Otherwise, I'd say that the careless use of the phrase "flora and fauna" reveals this isn't about the "flora and fauna" at all. Once again it's a political statement. If I'm really expected to believe such a claim, why then I guess I should voluntarily stop riding in the Carolinian forest of the Don valley at night, since it's also being managed by the TRCA with an environment-first approach.

Other reasons concern the safety of night users, the possible impact on the insurance rates for liability, the reduction of stress on trails and the fact that inappropriate activities such as campfires and drinking may occur (which are more likely to occur at night and when there are fewer users to observe these activities).

Hmm, guess that also applies to the Don valley if you think about it. If this is not just local Durham politics, then the TRCA should announce the same policy for the Don valley.

First. I broke my neck in two places this past Saturday (C7 & T3). I'm not paralyzed and have full mobility and sensation. But I am very lucky.

Second. The DMBA sent a letter to the TRCA with many suggestions, all geared towards avoiding a ban. I have yet to see a response to that letter, but I'm told we will have one. It will be posted when I get it.

Third. You are being paranoid. There is no organized "anti-MTB" force against us. What is working against us is that others who don't want us using the land are organized and we are not. (Some of those groups don't want people on the land period!) This is why the DMBA (and later TORBG) was formed so that we'd have a voice. But don't expect to just show up and have our voice count for as much as the other groups that have been partners and stakeholders for 10-20 years. Also expect to take further losses before things turn around.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

Third. You are being paranoid. There is no organized "anti-MTB" force against us. What is working against us is that others who don't want us using the land are organized and we are not. (Some of those groups don't want people on the land period!) This is why the DMBA (and later TORBG) was formed so that we'd have a voice. But don't expect to just show up and have our voice count for as much as the other groups that have been partners and stakeholders for 10-20 years. Also expect to take further losses before things turn around.

FYI

There has been local involvement in the future planning of Centennial Park near Etobicoke Creek on the border of Mississauga and Etobicoke. You may know that mountain bikers, and kids on bikes, frequent the creek valley trails. Many local residents had this confused notion that mountain bikers drink at night, light fires, and grow drugs in the Creek valley, and didn't want a paved trail connecting the creek to Centennial Park. What these people fail to understand is the difference between "kids/teens on bikes" and "mountain bikers". And that is the image we are fighting, over and over again. Makes you wonder about the average intelligence of people these days.

Oh, and they didn't want cyclocross events happening on Centennial Hill.......too much damage to the environment. But they failed to take into account that the hill is built with raw garbage from the 70's, and it is an active ski hill in the winter........duh.

Don't worry about the stakeholders.......they will be dead or too frail in a decade or two......if you can wait that long .

First. I broke my neck in two places this past Saturday (C7 & T3). I'm not paralyzed and have full mobility and sensation. But I am very lucky.

That must have been scary. Hope you have a speedy recovery.

Originally Posted by jmurray

Second. The DMBA sent a letter to the TRCA with many suggestions, all geared towards avoiding a ban. I have yet to see a response to that letter, but I'm told we will have one. It will be posted when I get it.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by jmurray

Third. You are being paranoid. There is no organized "anti-MTB" force against us. What is working against us is that others who don't want us using the land are organized and we are not. (Some of those groups don't want people on the land period!) This is why the DMBA (and later TORBG) was formed so that we'd have a voice. But don't expect to just show up and have our voice count for as much as the other groups that have been partners and stakeholders for 10-20 years. Also expect to take further losses before things turn around.

That's good to hear. Although I suppose I could still be paranoid that "(Some of those groups don't want people on the land period!)". The "expect further losses" also sounds ominous.

Again, it needs to be repeated that those of us who's main contribution to the "cause" is whiny, pun-riddled rants on the Internet really do appreciate the DMBA and your contribution in particular.

lucky indeed...

Originally Posted by jmurray

Only a small answer.

First. I broke my neck in two places this past Saturday (C7 & T3). I'm not paralyzed and have full mobility and sensation. But I am very lucky.

I took a horrible crash in Walkers Woods about 2 weeks before the Fall 8 hour race ... I was lucky too, as the crew I was with thought I broke my arm... I did however bruise it and lose some mobility for a few days... I still managed to suffer my way through the race tho...

there is a trail in there now closed off (due to erosion) and a new trail built. the
trail closed is the one I fell and injured myself on...when you come out of Snakes/Ladders you would go straight and then turn left, climb a rooty hill. my friend tells me you don't turn left any longer, you just go straight... she said it was alot of fun...

"I became a member of Team Misfit Psycles because of the free coasters"

I took a horrible crash in Walkers Woods about 2 weeks before the Fall 8 hour race ... I was lucky too, as the crew I was with thought I broke my arm... I did however bruise it and lose some mobility for a few days... I still managed to suffer my way through the race tho...

there is a trail in there now closed off (due to erosion) and a new trail built. the
trail closed is the one I fell and injured myself on...when you come out of Snakes/Ladders you would go straight and then turn left, climb a rooty hill. my friend tells me you don't turn left any longer, you just go straight... she said it was alot of fun...

Ironically, the building of the new trail you described was supervised by Jason last month.

So I just read the flyer and I'm thinking that the liability concerns maybe more prevalent of an issue. in the first FAQ they state that the other parks that allow night riding have Staff on hand, and large wide tracks to access the trails, then subtly throw in a mention of insurance further down.

I'll have to agree there are probably a few people who would prefer no bikes at all but the concerns of Liability, Drinking, and Impacton the Forest are ways to convince the others who manage the forest. In al honestly 20 or so riders in a forest that size for a couple of hours between say 7 and 10 really don't make much of a difference vs the regular approved usage.

I know of several people who go trail running on TRCA governed areas at night. so will this ban include hikers, walkers, and trail runners as well? Or are mountain bikers the usuall group to be persecuted and be burned at the stake?

Fred's Farm, Walker's Wood's race series (first approved, then denied just before it was to begin), Durham Durango no longer allowed in Walker's Woods or Glen Major, ban on night riding (oh, okay...ban on all night activites now being enforced, sorry). There's no doubt in my mind that there are some who would be overjoyed to have a complete ban on mountain biking in there (and everywhere else) and I suspect that at least one of these "sqeaky wheels"-ooh what an ironic metaphor- is actively waging a step by step campaign to do just that. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

You're right to feel paranoid, but there is no conspiracy, just a whole bunch of activity all at one. Fred's Farm, no racing, Greenwood ban, historical Rouge and Seaton ban, etc. This all got me off my ass to look for any club in the area doing anything (this was 2004). Nothing existed so I formed the DMBA. We are now have 45 members, are at the table for 3 Rocks, and Durham Forest. Some of our members are heavily involved in the Don. We hold Take a Kid Mountain Biking Day, DMBA pancake breakfast... It is our "counter campaign" in the sense that it a) allows mountain bikers to get organized and b) shows how we can contribute and why we should be listened to.

Originally Posted by HSCoach2

Since much of the night-riding takes place in the fall and is typically done by 9:00 or 10:00 (when there is still light in June and July), isn't there some room for compromise? Wouldn't a partial ban be reasonable? How about night riding only Mon-Thurs with an 11:00 P.M. curfew or something like that? That does leave 8+ hours of darkness. Or even designating just 1-2 days/week that it is allowed? What's that you say? Squirrels don't know what day it is? Yes, but they manage to survive in downtown Toronto, I'm sure they can put up with a couple of dozen mountain bikers riding for 4-6 out of the approximately 84 hours of November darkness spread out over 100s of hectares. Yup, that's my question. (and yes, I know it's not just the squirrels)

If you check the DMBA website you'll see we did propose some alternative and are more than willing to work with the TRCA on some kind of compromise. I haven't seen the answer to that letter yet, but it is pretty clear now that the TRCA isn't interested in any of our suggestions.

Originally Posted by HSCoach2

Postponed: Our president recently had a bad cycling accident and this has forced us to postpone our AGM until he has recovered enough to attend. Sorry for the inconvenience. We'll post details at a later date.

I broke my back riding in the Don. T3 has a compression fracture, and C7 has a facet fracture on the left side. I will have a full recovery in time, after much pain and physio. At least I wasn't riding at night.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

Oh and don't forget that the mayor of Pickering somehow managed to build his dream house at the southwest end of Walker Woods. What were the stakeholders doing to make this happen????

Actually it was Rick Johnson one of our regional councilors.

From what I've heard politics were being played at rather high levels, as well as some criminal activity. I don't think the stewards made this happen, or even allowed it to happen. I think it happened and they aren't happy about it.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

mountian bikers are going to get the short end of the stick and it's our own fault.

You bring up very good points. We have to do a better job on two fronts.
1) policing our own bad behaviour.
2) educating the next generation of rider.

Next year the DMBA is planning on doing an "intro to MTB" type of ride for those crossing over from road or just new to MTB in general (that is if my back is healed enough).

As for policing our own behaviour, don't be afraid to speak up and ask those who are acting badly not to. No need to get into a big long discussion, or be a jerk, just say "riding in the rain ain't cool man, it wrecks the trails," or "carry out what you take in." It's a big effort, but in the long run we'll make it.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

I have been keeping tabs on the happenings here and didnt really want to say anything but I have to, now dont take it in the wrong way. Getting organized, getting people involved can be difficult and spreading word on our cause is great but....

This all got me off my ass to look for any club in the area doing anything (this was 2004). Nothing existed so I formed the DMBA. We are now have 45 members, are at the table for 3 Rocks, and Durham Forest.

Funny how before then there wernt the issues we have now. There was night use, there was no 3ft wide bulldozed 'single track', trails were actually challenging, sketchy trails with blind corners, rocks on the OUTSIDE of corners or off camber turns. Tree stumps were removed, not left sticking 3" above the ground, no one brought a big machine in just to make a trail (and cut down countless trees to do so in a conservation area) all for $$$/km and when someone made a new trail it was a distance that added minutes to a ride, not seconds.

Now granted different people and organizations had different parts in all of this, but the time it all began is the same. There certainly have been improvements but in 4 or so years, we have formed a group of only 45 people (in an area that hundreds ride at) and closed some ‘eroded’ trails in an old gravel pit and have seen a new parking lot at 3 Rocks all of which is great, it seems to me though that this 'awareness' may have actually shot us in the foot.

In some cases you may be right, in others not so much. These things have all been addressed before. Rather than touch on all of them I'll encourage you to search for my postings from the past, both here and on dropmachine.com, for explanations.

The bottom line is that the TRCA is going to be managing this property in a much more active fashion than they have over the last 20 years. The "good old days" are gone and will never return. We have to deal with the new reality that we face. Fortunately we are now at the table, there was a very real chance that we wouldn't be if I, and a few others, didn't step up. We were at the right place at the right time.

Now that I'm done patting myself on the back, I want to encourage all those who read this board to have their say. Join the DMBA, come to our meetings. A strong local club is emphatically not a bad thing. The stronger the club is the more we'll be able to do, not only with this land owner, but with others as well. More members is a louder voice, more members is more events, more members is better for mountain biking.

Jason Murray
Rep for Ontario, IMBA CanadaVisit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

I think the point Cory was trying to make is that all of the trails that have been made over the past year or two are either:
-deep swampy mud april-june, and december when the night frost warms up in the afternoon.
-off camber washout poorly designed
-4 way intersections in the middle of fast descents
-have 3" stumps sticking out everywhere

Who is providing the input and final say on these trail designs?? They seem to have no foresight whatsoever. By good old days we mean people who knew how to build trails. There is no reason that proper trail building can't be anti-erosion as well.