geoloseth wrote:The nose down flight comes from the angle that your hand is pivoting on your wrist when your have the top of your wrist pointed in various directions. If you try throwing with your forearm and wrist pointed up and you stop your motion close to the "hit" you'll see how everything is rotated over and is now pointed downward, including the top of your wrist and subsequently the disc.

I do have an unusually limber wrist. I don't see what you write in every case.

I'm able to go through the wrist extension motion with wrist up, neutral and down. Wrist vertical in all of these attempts. Usually that takes muscle power to keep the wrist vertical. In practicing at home sitting down letting the disc roll forward and stopping the wrist my wrist tends to roll over to the right. Leading to anhyzer which naturally yields nose down. Either wrist position yields similar results. That is nose angle is dependent on wrist angle for me. Unless I remove every other finger from under the disc other than index finger. When I do that and let the disc pivot between the thumb and the index finger then the nose drops heavily. I need to lessen my grip strength of the last two fingers in contact with the disc for this dropping of the nose to happen. That may be the key for me. I need to try that. I'm worried about early slippages though with this way of throwing.

What I'm interested in is can you extend the wrist while keeping the wrist vertical for the duration of the throw and releasing with more nose down than the wrist + waist bend forward + or - arm pull plane angle for a line drive? While keeping say 90 % power in the index finger + thumb pinch. For avoiding slippages. To me it seems that if that's possible that'd have to be created by a downward motion from the wrist or fingers during wrist extension. Or keeping the disc in the hand in some odd way that I've not figured out yet. Or a very fine power level requirement from the index finger and thumb. Too little=slippage and too much an inaccurate throw I'm thinking because grip locks loom near.

What am I missing from line drives and more nose down than wrist angle?

We differ in grip in that in the video your wrist is rolled over to the right significantly and mine is vertical. Depending on the grip I use my disc is either horizontal (rarely now) or hyzered by 20 or so degrees. Depending on what kind of a throw I plan to make and the HSS of the disc.

I can create nose down with anhyzer with a locked wrist no problem. Without concentrating on letting the disc pivot too. To me anny always has more nose down than flat throws if there's wrist down and waist bend forward attempts at some point in the throw. I don't usually mess up letting the wrist bounce up from initial down position to nose up on annies. Rarely with flat or hyzer to flat throws. On those I don't get the front of the disc to be below the rear of the disc on higher line drives

In sitting and extending wrist training I've never seen nose down with horizontal disc without wrist down at the hit with grip power of sufficient power to avoid early slippages. Note that I've yet to start with fully loose grip and tighten late. I always have some pressure before throw. Maybe 60 %. I'll have to train with actual throws what initially wrist down and wrist straight initially to wrist down during wrist extension and squeezing power and timing does for line drives. The need for those is exaggerated around these parts. Anny nose down for me doesn't need any training because I've done that last year. Nose down part that is. Accuracy and distance can always improve on different lines. I trained with nose down both golf and max D anny lines.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

The example of nose = wrist down was a bit extreme because I was assuming that the pull is horizontal and the forearm and wrist were pointed upward. If you pull like that then the hinging of the elbow and wrist is extreme. But it was only to prove a point.

When I'm actually throwing a lower altitude golf shot I have my wrist down (hand shake position) and my forearm is pointed horizontally away from my body. This results in a level flight. I have to conciously keep a firm enough grip so the disc doesnt slip out early. I've found that to throw higher I can pull upward but I must maintain the top of my forearm pointed away. And the higher I want to throw the more I have to keep he top of the forearm pointed a little more past horizontal. The allows for the wrist to pivot on a horizontal plane. I hope that makes sense.

geoloseth wrote:The example of nose = wrist down was a bit extreme because I was assuming that the pull is horizontal and the forearm and wrist were pointed upward. If you pull like that then the hinging of the elbow and wrist is extreme. But it was only to prove a point.

When I'm actually throwing a lower altitude golf shot I have my wrist down (hand shake position) and my forearm is pointed horizontally away from my body. This results in a level flight. I have to conciously keep a firm enough grip so the disc doesnt slip out early. I've found that to throw higher I can pull upward but I must maintain the top of my forearm pointed away. And the higher I want to throw the more I have to keep he top of the forearm pointed a little more past horizontal. The allows for the wrist to pivot on a horizontal plane. I hope that makes sense.

I also assume a horizontal or close to it arm pull for golf shots. Wrist upwards no roll over or roll under.

Just to double check that I understand you correctly what do you mean by the top of the forearm and wrist? If you were hitching a ride by pointing the thumb upwards by raising it high and at a 90 degree angle to the palm where would your thumb point on low and high drives with top of the forearm and wrist up? I'm not 100 % sure of how you're doing things now. I have an idea but would like to be certain.

From the video it seems that you'd have the thumb pointing to the right of perfectly vertical but that would tilt the disc to a heavy anhyzer angle. With grips that hold the disc horizontal in the beginning if the thumb would point up hitch hiker style. Too heavy anny for low altitude work and not usable for line drives at all. Luckily for me most of my drives do have hyzer in the grip which allows for the thumb to point up and right tilted a couple of dozens of degrees to the right of vertical. Resulting in the disc leaving flat.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Bradley Walker wrote:I went out throwing Rocs last night in the field and I could literally SEE the disc bouncing off of my fingers as I hit the extension. My fingers looked like rubber bands. I have a new San Marino I think it went about 380 or 390 dead flat, no lie.

Do you straighten the fingers from curled in the first 95+ % of the arm pull to straight towards the target after you stop the wrist extension?

That would probably work purely from clean release stand point with only thumb and index finger touching the disc. Maybe with practice other fingers could join the fun in extending to straight too? That creates a slightly longer arc with more time for power from lower parts of the body to move to the disc as you're holding on to the disc marginally longer but at a time when the results of power transfer are magnified in importance.

I haven't tried to throw this way yet after the initial idea that I got over a year ago and initially I had more basic things about form to work on so I dropped this avenue of research. Now trying this at home with putting power or less it works beautifully and looks awesome only if it could be accurately and repeatably be incorporated to full power throws too.

Edit: I just tried to putt with a mid and a wide rimmed driver with finger spring is it called? Maybe not the exact same thing in putting. I'm not on clear on the semantics of the finger spring in putting to know for sure if this is exactly the same thing. I was able to extend the fingers and release cleanly consistently with two finger power grip. Not 3 or 4. Pinching too hard with index finger and thumb can lead to grip locks as I noticed but too loose a pinch and the disc slips early. The margin of error is not too small so it is learnable for at least putting power required for say 30-40'.

I've moved to two finger power grip recently as it solved a lot of the problems with increased power available for mids that stuck to my index and ring fingers often and at times to middle finger or the side of the index finger. For drives it puts the skin on the right side of the middle finger to strain but luckily I've grown the thin thick since I last used two finger power grips and cracked the skin. But it also allows for more relaxed wrist muscles helping in wrist extension and widening the arc that the hand makes pivoting around the wrist for more power and spin.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

I finally got a chance to check out the video with sound last night. My first observation is that Bradley has a different accent than I expected. It was the same way when I talked to Blake so there might be something to that.

I found the arrow on the disc to be one of the most helpful parts of the video. I haven't tried wrist extension in that maner before since I assumed it would be very difficult to control where the disc went but it's definitely something I'm going to work on now. I guess I felt the same way about letting the disc rip from my hand at first, too and that turned out alright.

When I was talking about the top of the forearm and wrist I should have clarified what I meant. I appologize. The top of the forearm is whee the face of a wrist watch would be. And the top of the wrist I suppose would be that same side of your hand. The only way to get your wrist to pivot without turning over either way is to hold your hand perfectly in line with your forearm. If you hold your hand in the hand shake position and then extend your wrist it will naturally roll over and cause anhyzer. When Brad and I startedthese excercizes that was exactly what was happening. But once you get the motion of wrist extension you can start experimenting with different forearm orientations that will change the angle of release.

The best way I can explain it is to look at Blake's shot telegraphing section. If you want to throw with hyzer then on the reach back you should have the wing of the disc above horizontal, pointed up. This causes the top of the forearm (watch face) to be pointed below horizontal. This leads to the wrist extending and causing a hyzer angle of release. And it works the same way for anhyzer. Until you get the hang of wrist extension and the necessary compensation of hand and forearm orientation, most everything will come out with some degree of anhyzer.

I was trying this out last night. Initial results seem to be good, the disc just has that extra carry to it. Usually where I expect it to fade out and dive, it kept going flat for a bit longer. If you've looked at my video critique thread, I've lamented about how my first attempts at elbow lead seemed good, but something tailed off along the way. I think I was utilizing wrist extension without even being aware of it when my drives felt "right". Now, when I'm consciously doing it, I'm having good results, but I'm having a tendency to release to the right. Any advice on that, or is it just a matter of practicing until I get used to it?

Tim_the_Enchanter wrote:I was trying this out last night. Initial results seem to be good, the disc just has that extra carry to it. Usually where I expect it to fade out and dive, it kept going flat for a bit longer. If you've looked at my video critique thread, I've lamented about how my first attempts at elbow lead seemed good, but something tailed off along the way. I think I was utilizing wrist extension without even being aware of it when my drives felt "right". Now, when I'm consciously doing it, I'm having good results, but I'm having a tendency to release to the right. Any advice on that, or is it just a matter of practicing until I get used to it?

Practice. And the off chance that you could be gripping too hard. I had a similar problem when starting out. Everything was either left or right, NOTHING went where I wanted it. All it took was practice.

This is making sense and I hope to get out tonight to try it some more. The question that I have is if you wanted to throw a level shot lets say with a wizard or a roc would you keep everything level? You said when you first started that everything was coming out with some degree of anhyzer. Was it alot? Where you seeing some OAT? Now that you have some practice do you keep everything horizontal for a straight level shot or is your forearm rotated some to the hyzer side of things and does this add some OAT??

"I do believe the sum extent of the messiness, disarrangement, disorder, and dirtiness of your room is equal to that of your brain." Johnny Cash

bcsst26 wrote:This is making sense and I hope to get out tonight to try it some more. The question that I have is if you wanted to throw a level shot lets say with a wizard or a roc would you keep everything level? You said when you first started that everything was coming out with some degree of anhyzer. Was it alot? Where you seeing some OAT? Now that you have some practice do you keep everything horizontal for a straight level shot or is your forearm rotated some to the hyzer side of things and does this add some OAT??

If I want to throw my buzzz or wizard dead straight and level I will pull my arm horizontally and make sure the disc is staying horizontal too. The top of my forearm (watch face) is tilted about 10 to 15 degrees above horizontal. This allows for the disc to come out dead flat and straight. But the angle of my forearm is probably specific only to my grip on the disc. If I'm throwing my drivers then the top of my wrist is more horizontal. It will all depend on your actual grip of the disc and the extent of your wrist down positioning.

When I was starting out there wasn't much OAT being imparted on the disc. If you've read what Brad was talking about with the behavior I the disc on the arc. When you extend your wrist during the throw the disc is actually pivoted and flung out onto an angle. When I was starting out I tried to get the most exagerated wrist extension so the disc was being flung out on an anhyzer line. Now when I want a disc to go far and hold an anhyzer I will pull with the watch face horizontal, my wrist down in a hand shake, and the I try to snap the living crap out of the disc. That launches the disc on an anhyzer and it has so much spin it holds that line almost the entire flight. If I want my TeeRex to fly dead straight as far as possible I will pull with the watch face just slightly above horizontal, wrist in a hand shake, snap the hell out of it, and watch the disc take off.

That helps out. I can see it now. The only problem is that I am sitting here at work in front of my computer looking like an idiot spraying my arm all over the place without a disc in my hand. Guess I will have to wait till I can get out in the field to ask any more questions. Hmmm which leads to a question. I wander what people would think if I got a fling for here at work?

"I do believe the sum extent of the messiness, disarrangement, disorder, and dirtiness of your room is equal to that of your brain." Johnny Cash