Throw the Bible is for a real "Through The Looking Glass" account:A book written by a guy that was raised in the Egyptian Royal Household and Schooled in the "Mysteries" of the Priesthood ("How to Control the Unwashed Masses 101") ...and as a Stone-Cutter and Voila' suddenly you have the first (AND ONLY) personto ever see and talk directly to GOD , who says God instructedhim to go forth and take what ever he wants and kill anyone thattries to oppose him... LOL No wonder everybody wants to push this loud-mouthed cracker into a nearest large body of very deep water!

Well the reality is that Israel is occupying Palestinian land and refusing to give it up. Palestinians have a right to use force to recover it. So, no, both sides aren't at fault - only Israel is.

And that reduction to absurdly simple terms is what feeds the violence -- "I am right, only you are wrong".

Do you really expect that line of reasoning to lead to any kind of peace in a region where both cultures have existed for thousands of years? In a land who's "ownership" has been the source of debate since time immemorial, do you really think "its all mine, you don't have the right to even exist here" is the solution?

Again: until both Israelis and Palestinians come to accept the right of each other to exist in the region, nothing productive is going to happen. And the notion that any one side feels it can absolve itself from responsibility for everything that has happened there -- that the other is exclusively to blame -- only serves as an excuse to continue the violence ...

Seriously. "So, no, both sides aren't at fault - only [insert your opponent here] is" is *exactly* the kind of thinking that allows the atrocities on both sides to continue ...

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Do you mean coexist within ever-moving boundaries or the 1948 fixed ones?

How about no boundaries at all? Let's start with the concept that both peoples have a right to exist in the region *at all*, which would be a huge leap forward, and work from there. Borders don't mean much when factions on both sides want *all* of the land and deny the other's right to even breathe air on it ...

Personally, I'd love to see the two peoples re-integrate, into one single state of which each could take ownership and pride, and embrace their common heritage rather than fight over their differences ... but that's probably idealistic pie-in-the-sky stuff at this point given the amount of animosity generated of the the past decades ... and, of course, the idea that the only the other guy is to blame for the violence that has happened ...

And that reduction to absurdly simple terms is what feeds the violence -- "I am right, only you are wrong".

Oh alright then, if we send Eckhard over to Alexandria to take away your back garden and he gives you a bloody good hiding when you try to get it back - that'll be both your faults.

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Do you really expect that line of reasoning to lead to any kind of peace in a region where both cultures have existed for thousands of years? In a land who's "ownership" has been the source of debate since time immemorial...

Thousands of years have got nothing to do with it... the debate about who owns what was settled in 1948 by UN Res 181.

Oh alright then, if we send Eckhard over to Alexandria to take away your back garden and he gives you a bloody good hiding when you try to get it back - that'll be both your faults.

Assuming he has a legal right to the garden (i.e, mandate from the UN, as you sate below) and I nonetheless wage several wars to oust him from it completely, during which he also occupies the back porch, which makes me even more upset that I can't possibly do anything else but to plant bombs in local cafes, blow up city busses and indiscriminately rocket the local neighborhood in reply, making life generally miserable for everybody for decades ... yes I can see where I'm completely blameless in the whole affair ...

Now, to be sure, Eck is acting the right ass in his own way during all of this -- worse than me in very many ways. But that still doesn't remove the responsibility I have for my part in the festivities or the fact that not only do I not want to live peacefully with Eck even if he returned to his mandated part of the garden, I don't want him to even exist ...

So, yes, "both your faults" sums it up pretty nicely ...

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Thousands of years have got nothing to do with it ... the debate about who owns what was settled in 1948 by UN Res 181.

You might want to tell that to Hamas, several other armed groups and a large part of the Arab world in general -- they seem to have missed the memo ...

It's obvious you picked the losing side here, as Celendine pointed out, it's all Moses' fault. If he hadn't lead the slaves out of Egypt and taken Canaan by force, all the troubles in the ME wouldn't exist today. The Israelites should have been content with being slaves of the Egyptians, and waited for 6000 years until the UN came into existance and demanded that slavery end.

_________________________I used to think it was terrible that life was unfair. Then I thought what if life were fair and all of the terrible things that happen came because we really deserved them? Now I take comfort in the general unfairness and hostility of the universe.

That's the whole point - he doesn't have a legal right to your garden. No wonder you're getting the middle east wrong if you're getting rights and parties the wrong way around.

Er ... 181, which you referenced, establishes legal boundaries for both Jewish and Arab states in Palestine. Hence Eck's claim in our little exercise to a portion of the garden would be legal =P

Just using your sources, dude ...

Unless, of course, you don't recognize the partition scheme, in which case we're back to the >1,000-year deal in regards ownership ;-)

Regardless, Eck's legal claim to the garden or no, I'm still responsible for injuries and deaths I inflict on innocent civilians, especially if I'm *intentionally* targeting them, which would be a war crime ...

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