500 words a day on whatever I want

black women

Note: The following may offend some readers. My aim is to be truthful rather than politically correct. The view I express is my own (very male) point of view. If you prefer received doctrine on this subject, I refer you to the Wikipedia.

Black women are the most beautiful women in the world. I know many will disagree with that, but to me it only seems like common sense: they are the only women who have a full figure, the body shape that a woman should have. Women from other parts of the world are beautiful too, but they are all missing one thing or other that black women have.

Well, black women are missing one thing that most other women have: long hair. Some do have naturally long hair, but most do not. Living in America you forget that because most black women either straighten their hair or get it from a store!

In America one woman in eight is black. You would never know that from the fashion or film industry. Most are not pure-blooded. That means their cheekbones are not as high, their skin not as dark and their eyes are more rounded. Some are more white than black, but are regarded as black in America because of the One Drop Rule.

In Brazil half the women are at least part black, but most are light-skinned. Only one of them has ever won Miss Brazil.

Black women in the West Indies are less mixed, and those in Africa even less so.

Most people in Europe, North America and India do not regard black women as beautiful: they are too dark, their noses are too broad and sometimes they look too much like men. Even among black men in North America and the West Indies light-skinned women are considered more beautiful than dark-skinned ones, all things being equal.

But black men, of course, see the beauty in black women far more than others, if only because they take the time to look at them. In both North America and Africa they also like that one thing black women have more than other women: that beautiful bottom of theirs.

White Americans in general think the whiter-looking black women, like Vanessa Williams or Halle Berry, are better looking. But, strangely enough, the few white men who date and marry black women tend to go for the darker ones.

Some say black women are “strong”. You hear people in America saying that. In some sense, because so many find themselves raising a family without a husband, they have to act strong. But it becomes a vicious circle: by acting so strong, it drives away men who would have otherwise settled down with them. Four black women in ten have never been married!

Yeah, I agree with 110% sarah: Black women do come from North Africa (were there first, actually) and Egyptians are Black…

also I think another thing people need to get straight is this:

Black women are NOT difficult and I’ll tell you why: we take *alot* of sh#t for being vastly different than other races even though all races come from us **AND** many of the things that make us beautiful are ignored and then cooed over in white women… i.e. everyone going crazy over Jolie’s lips or J. Lo’s butt when many, MANY beautiful black women have gorgeous lips, butts, skin etc.

But I gotta give you props still, Abagond, because you do more good than bad by speaking about us and our beauty and I for one think that’s cool!

Still, being a Black woman, I don’t think I’m difficult nor any of my family & friends.

We just don’t suffer stupidity well and the world has been *VERY* stupid to us.

So, please, before any of you out there label us as “difficult,” just ask yourself if you could be happy-go-lucky 24/7 in a world that’s always making you feel less than.

Black Women are just untouchable,it’s not even fair for other women and can’t be compared to any other…Other women front lkike they don’t know but women know within them that the sistas are just so perfect…Their default is at a higher level of beauty. In America, I know a lot of the sistas think of their self low…some don’t, but the reality is that they are at the top by far…Other women are very nice aswell but the truth will always hurt them other women…No offence to any other women…You are all beautiful.

I think the most beautiful women(dark complexion) can be from anywhere…

I am a white man who has been happily married to a wonderful and beautiful Black woman for over 30 years. Black women, in my opinion, from the plainest looking (I am not implying unattractiveness here so please don’t interpret it this way) to the most glamorous, are simply the most beautiful women in the entire world. Not only are their special features to die for (e.g. various shades of skin tone, full lips, gorgeous eyes, figures, hair texture, etc.) but their strength of character and extraordinarily beautiful personalities have captivated me for life. If, God forbid, I were ever to lose my wonderful Black wife, I would never even consider dating a white woman. I’ve even confessed once to my wife that I wish that I had been born Black.

Well, black women are missing one thing that most other women have: long hair. Some do have naturally long hair, but most do not

Hair is no big deal it’s dead anyway. Black women’s hair grows just like everyone elses. If black women’s hair did not grow they would not have to get touch ups for their new growth. Some black women can’t retain length due to breakage from weave, chemicals, heat, and over styling. If more black women took better care of their hair most would have long hair.

Most are not pure-blooded. That means their cheekbones are not as high, their skin not as dark and their eyes are more rounded.

So, what about pure black women that do not have high cheekbones, lighter skin, and rounded eyes… like me? A pure black West African doesn’t necessarily have to have these features. Many do not.

leaveum,

And many black women who do have long hair people assume its a weave.

Seriously. People always assumed my hair was a weave when I used to press it straight. Even my best friend thought that, oddly.

Y,

Her hair reminds me of mine when it was natural. I’m transitioning now back to natural. Relaxers have really taken the body out of my hair, which was good at first since it was so thick, but now it’s just looking flat.

You can have long hair, light skin, low cheekbones, round eyes and still be 100% black African. After all, where did those things come from? They are not mutations found only outside of Africa.

On the other hand those things are more frequent among black women in America. Some of it does come directly from Africa but it seems like most of it comes from whites. I come to that conclusion by comparing black women in America with those in Jamaica where mixing with whites was far more limited.

Yeah, seeing all the women on YT with long natural hair made me stop using relaxers. I been relaxer free for a year. My hair was always a decent length but I got tired of the burns and maintenance. I want the freedom to wash and go.

Unfortunately I still straighten my hair for length. I dont look good with short hair. Usually I get braids but my connection fell through and I had to go back to school with my hair down.

Yeah I still have some relaxed ends too, As soon as I BC’d I got braids becasue short hair does not suit me. Plus I cut it un even and I felt I looked boysih (I was wearing my younger brother’s clothes at the time.

Jamaican slaves were taken from specific places in Africa — mainly the coast of Angola, Ghana, Nigeria, and Congo. The darkest people in the world are found near the Sahel and Angola-Congo. High cheekbones and almond eyes are also found prominently in groups in these areas (Ashanti, Fante, etc), but not in other groups. These are a specific subset of people; this is not representative of Africans as a whole.

Thanks for the explanation, Natasha! For some reason, I was uncertain whether “hight cheekbones” mean elevated cheekbones or cheekbones that are located high on the face (some people’s cheekbones appear closer to their eyes, while others have them closer to the cheek- not sure how to explain this. I remember this from my physical anthropology classes about zygomatic bones- all the people have them located in the same place, of course, but they are shaped differently). So I thought that maybe “high cheekbones” means they are positioned higher, closer to the eyes.

Thanks for the cheekbone pictures. Katherine Hepburn is certainly what I have in mind when I say “high cheekbones”.

Also good point about how Jamaica, even if less mixed with white, is itself just bits of Africa genetically speaking. I tend to forget that, especially since I have seen people from Ghana who look just like Jamaicans.

@ Mira:

If you are in the mood for some racist ranting about cheekbones, go here:

I don’t buy that cheekbones have anything to do with how primitivity, rather they have to do with environment. If it were the case that high cheekbones = primitive, then Nordic peoples (read: Hitler’s “master race”) would be very primitive because they tend to have prominent cheekbones.

Thanks! I used to use coconut oil (as well as grease, I know I’m bad but my hair likes it). Currently I use unrefined shea butter, but it gets a little hard. I’ve been hearing about that Chi Silk Infusion; might need to invest in that for blow drying and flat ironing.

What about brunettes or redheads ? Also, alot bw have long hair. I think some of them don’t take care of their hair properly. All they have to do is stop cutting their hair. I thought most bw’s hair was really just a very dark brown that appeared black.

Black men appreciate the beauty of black women the most? HAH! That is a lie. Most black men hate black women-I am not talking about mulatto or mixed women, I mean black women who actually look African. And they hate them for no reason other than the fact that they are black.

White men may be the original creators of such harsh stereotypes, but the number of white and nonblack men who appreciate true African beauty (the type you have mentioned here) far outnumbers the number of black men who do. Whenever I see an African looking black woman she is always with a white man. Plus, ever since I started growing dreadlocks nonblack men are the only men who hit on me. A tip for black women: go for who REALLY appreciates you! Some black men who date black women believe they are “settling” for a less attractive breed.

I will not even get to the hair issue-I’m sure some other people have tackled that. But the fact that Abagond believes a woman must have long hair to be on par proves that he is affected by Eurocentric beauty standards. Black women can grow long hair-that is a given. But our REAL hair does not grow LONG-it grows up and OUT so even if it’s long it will not usually give that aesthetic unless the woman straightens it or grows locs.

Black women are no “stronger” than women of any other race. That is another lie fed to black people by white supremacists to keep black women’s status as the MULES OF THE EARTH. Black women can be either the strongest or the weakest women you will ever come across because of our unique condition in society. Please stop believing this nonsense.

I read an article in the March 2010 issue about black men not dating black women. The woman who’d written the article was bothered by Reggie Bush being on the cover of the February issue because he dated Kim Kardashian, and so she felt that putting him on the cover was making a standard that black women couldn’t live up to. I could see where she was coming from, (she’d had some very bad experiences with black men–one even asked her for her e-mail address just so he could tell her all these horrible reasons why black women were “undesireable”) but I just don’t get it. He’s a black man who dated a white woman. Call me naive, but can’t a black man date a black woman after dating a white one? Is that really so hard to believe? Can’t someone see both as beautiful?

GataAgressiva,
-Black men appreciate the beauty of black women the most? HAH! That is a lie. Most black men hate black women-I am not talking about mulatto or mixed women, I mean black women who actually look African. And they hate them for no reason other than the fact that they are black.
-White men may be the original creators of such harsh stereotypes, but the number of white and nonblack men who appreciate true African beauty (the type you have mentioned here) far outnumbers the number of black men who do
-Black women are no “stronger” than women of any other race. That is another lie fed to black people by white supremacists to keep black women’s status as the MULES OF THE EARTH.

laromana says,
GataAgressiva, thanks for stating these important facts regarding the ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that MANY BM demonstrate in their attitudes/actions towards BW.
The disgusting, self hating behavior of these ANTI-BW BM needs to be confronted/condemned because it is the MAJOR reason the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW is constantly being attacked in American society, culture, and media.

Talking about relaxing hair. My mother never used relaxers as far as I remember and although she was “only” half African she had quite a big fro. There are some pictures of her from the sixties looking like Marsha Hunt. Sometimes she would buzz it all off, at some point to “coco rasé” or just leave it as is, a big fro. My father didn’t mind it and we siblings got used to the occasional drastic changes.

My grandmother had braids all of her life as far as I remember and that obviously didn’t prevent her from being married over 40 years and pursue her job.

I would be lying if I said I think younger black men in America truly appreciate African beauty in the same way a older black American men, Caribbeans and Africans do. I dont want to paint anyone with a broad brush but I did notice a difference when I finally started wearing my fro…BW of all ages and only OLDER black men compliment me the most. I never got a lot of attention from Black American men but the attention basically evaporated once I went natural..

That being said I think BW should be careful and not prop up non-black men for admiring African beauty. For sure some like African women but most dont. White/non-black men out number BW drastically, numerically there will be MORE non-black men that like black women than the reverse. That dosnt mean non-black men are less brainwashed than black men. Not at all. The same conditioning people accuse black men of having is also prevalent amongst non-black men, more so if you ask me.

I agree that we should engage with people that find us attractive as we are but that can only happen on an individual basis. Its a bit disingenuous to say non-black(especially white) men appreciate black beauty more.

I agree that we should engage with people that find us attractive as we are but that can only happen on an individual basis. Its a bit disingenuous to say non-black(especially white) men appreciate black beauty more.

Bit isn’t that what a person needs? To be loved by one individual who find her attractive? As an individual, nobody should care if people in general find her or her type attractive- all you need is one person.

But on a general level (that should NEVER be confused with personal level!) I think you are right: non-black men don’t appreciate black beauty more. They, especially whites, are the ones the most affected by media. Not to mention many of them are racist.

The thing is, I don’t really get what is so “speshul” about white beauty. There are stunning white women, of course, but as a whole group? I don’t think so. I watched a documentary about Cybill Shepherd yesterday and I honestly couldn’t tell what was so amazing about the way she looked. (And she was praised as an extremely hot woman).

I don’t know how black men feel, though. I assumed they are the ones who appreciate black females beauty the most, since that’s what they grew up with. But I guess many are influenced by media and racism.

Well, black women are missing one thing that most other women have: long hair.

?!? I didn’t notice this. Most of the black women with natural hair have long hair, from what I understand. Not all, but I honestly never thought black women can’t have long hair. It has to be one of those US cultural things.

Y, I agree with that. Most men, regardless of ethnicity, are media-brainwashed. Most people are. Except:

“The same conditioning people accuse black men of having is also prevalent amongst non-black men, more so if you ask me.”

Moreso? No, it’s about even.

Furthermore, I don’t understand this concept of blacks applauding or thanking black men for appreciating black women. That should be a given, no matter what the media portrays. Really, you don’t see too many black men on “hottest men” lists or “richest men” lists, these lists are all full of white men. And the hero or hottest guy on TV is always white. Yet I don’t see many black women saying “Well, I have a preference [which is not for black men]. ”

Mira,

“Bit isn’t that what a person needs? To be loved by one individual who find her attractive? As an individual, nobody should care if people in general find her or her type attractive- all you need is one person.”

Very true. However, if you don’t yet have that one person, what the general populace finds attractive it is going to be important to you.

“They, especially whites, are the ones the most affected by media.”

Yeahhh… no. See above. 🙂

Re: Cybil, she is just okay to me. She’s not hideous, but she isn’t really that great looking. But she was thin and blonde with blue eyes — that’s all you need to be considered attractive in America. Even my SO said that, before I informed him that this seemed to be the case (I’m so proud of my baby! All hip to white supremacy. LOL.) Like with blacks, the light-skinned woman with long, straight hair and/or curly hair is considered the most attractive, with whites, the thin blonde with blue eyes is the hottest.

y >>I dont want to paint anyone with a broad brush but I did notice a difference when I finally started wearing my fro…BW of all ages and only OLDER black men compliment me the most. I never got a lot of attention from Black American men but the attention basically evaporated once I went natural..<>?!? I didn’t notice this. Most of the black women with natural hair have long hair, from what I understand. Not all, but I honestly never thought black women can’t have long hair. It has to be one of those US cultural things.<<

It requires care. Growing hair longer into a true natural requires a bit less care. But if a woman uses chemicals to BREAK the natural curl of her hair to make it straight, then obviously that hair shaft is not going to be as resilient as a shaft that's been allowed to do its own thing.

Anyway, regarding this post, the first thing that comes to mind is “WTF?” I don’t think I mentioned that last time, but I find this whole post stranger than strange. Mainly because it is written as if in an informative or objective manner, when it is quite clearly subjective (I know the author states from the outset that it is his opinion, but the style of writing is “matter-of-fact”).

Furthermore, it’s backhanded compliment central. On the one hand, it says black women are the most beautiful. Okay. Then it goes on to say that black women are missing one thing: long hair (in such a way that makes it seems that black women could never have long hair as a group) . What? I thought abagond was a Catholic: the Bible says “But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her…” It doesn’t say “But if a woman has a big butt, it is a glory.” Hair makes a woman (Of course, the woman makes the woman, but you all understand what I mean).

And I already mentioned that I think the description of “black woman” is inaccurate.

Very true. However, if you don’t yet have that one person, what the general populace finds attractive it is going to be important to you.

Indeed. But then again, personal level should always be separated from general. People often don’t do that, but it is very important.

Yeahhh… no. See above.

I assumed whites are those affected the most by the media because it’s often shaped for their needs and it’s quicker to make them brainwashed than the others. If nothing else, they see people like them in commercials, movies, TV shows, etc. all the time. They can identify with those people more easily, which means they can trust them. And that’s the safest way for media brainwashing.

So I’m not saying blacks and other non-whites are not affected by media; I just thought whites were the ones affected the most.

But she was thin and blonde with blue eyes — that’s all you need to be considered attractive in America.

I get that. That’s what is so absurd about it.

Cybil is not an ugly woman. She was good in “The Last Picture Show”. But the problem is, she (and women of her type) are often praised for their great looks- even if they are of average appearance. That’s how I see her: a girl of average appearance. I could certainly understand why some men would find her attractive, but I don’t understand the hype women who look like her generate (Similar can be said of Tiger Wood’s (ex?) wife. Good looking, but nothing special.) The problem is, women who are praised as the hottest often look generic, like they don’t have a mind and personality of their own.

(And it’s not just women- I often feel the same about men who are praised for being uber-hot. George Clooney, anybody?)

Also, funny thing about Cybil- she was never really “thin” by today’s standards- she has really round hips. That wouldn’t be considered that attractive today, but it was seen as hot a few decades ago.

RDKirk,

So, in other words, it’s chemicals, not nature. That’s why I mentioned “US cultural thing”. It doesn’t matter if your hair is straight or kinky, or whether it grows up or down: a long hair is a long hair.

(But yes, it is genetic- not all people can grow it as long as others. It does depend on texture. My grandmother and her sisters never cut their hair, and it was of different length for each of them).

“I assumed whites are those affected the most by the media because it’s often shaped for their needs and it’s quicker to make them brainwashed than the others. If nothing else, they see people like them in commercials, movies, TV shows, etc. all the time. They can identify with those people more easily, which means they can trust them. And that’s the safest way for media brainwashing.”

Reverse this reasoning and you have an argument for why non-whites could be even more affected by media: it is not made for them. If all you ever see is people who don’t look like you or your loved ones, being praised as “most beautiful”, playing the love interest, or otherwise being the star of the show, it may make you feel as if you and your loved ones are not worthy of these positions. And it may make you want to be like, or love, the people who are coveted. Even Naomi Campbell at the top of this post, with her blue contacts is a good example of that. In fact, I would say a good amount of blacks (men and women) think this way, just some more than others.

True, it can go that way. Non-whites are deeply affected by media as they are with general society. But I guess I though at least some choose not to go into self-hate and choose not to believe what media tells them. Whites don’t have this motive, since it’s clear to them media speaks to them.

There’s also the idea that unfamiliar things can become a draw. That is partly why, I believe, whites may be able appreciate more the looks of dark-skinned woman, for example, than blacks can. I know this white Canadian woman who just thinks black women and Indian women are gorgeous, because she grew up around mostly whites, so they are “exotic” to her.

People can make a conscious choice not to be affected by the media and the general social milieu, but it is very, very, very difficult, if not near impossible.

Indeed. Exoticizing happens often. I sometimes think it’s impossible to have a sexual attraction without some form of exoticizing, and it doesn’t even have to be about cultural/racial differences. Like I mentioned, Abagond exoticize women, and I know plenty of women who exoticize men. (I don’t know how it goes with homosexual people, though).

I admit I was always attracted to men who didn’t look “ordinary” to me. I used to find many non conventionally handsome guys more attractive than those generic “hot” guys. I think I mentioned I don’t find George Clooney attractive, not because he’s ugly, but because he seems ordinary.

So it’s not like I don’t understand the power of “exotic” factor.

However, it can get pretty ugly, the moment you start exoticising someone’s personality and/or culture.

But I won’t lie: being attracted to what is familiar makes the same sense as being attracted to what is unfamiliar.

@Mira and Y:
Yes, most people in all groups do not place black women on a pedestal. However, there is no question that the number of nonblack men who appreciate black beauty outnumbers black men. Aside from other factors, it is also an issue of numbers.

SO although the number of racist white and nonblack men outnumbers nonracists, the minority of white and nonblack men who DO like black women and want to date and marry us truly appreciate AFRICAN beauty. This is not the case with Black men as there is a larger group of them who will date and even marry us while WORSHIPPING white womanhood.

African and Carribean men do not appreciate black women. That is a lie. Please do not confuse black men who DATE black women to black men who APPRECIATE black women or black beauty. I lived in Nigeria for years and I will tell you that all of the Nigerian men hate their own women and view them as second-rate, yet most of them date and MARRY them because that is all they have access to.

“White men are racist and brainwashed and do not appreciate black women” That is always the copout to avoid the blatant RACIOMISOGYNY that affects black women and is SOLELY practiced by black men. Most white men may be racist and indifferent towards black women, but most of them do not have a deep seated HATRED for us and have a sick self loathing attitude about their own skin color.

Sorry if i didnt make myself clear…yes and individual non-black man that appreciates African beauty is good by me, however I would be careful NOT to use one man’s preference as grounds to praise a whole group of men. At best non-black(especially white) men are indifferent to black women atr worst…well I’ll let the John Mayors’ and Don Imus’ speak for themselves.

@Natasha W

I get your point but I think whites are the most affected because they are seeing mirrors of themselves. The media only reinforces the superiority complexes many of them have to begin with. If they already think they are the best because of the privileges they have in real life looking at media representations only bolsters that superiority…

Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part…I would think blacks and non-whites watching TV would at least realizes there is something wrong with the misrepresentation of non-whites on TV, thus fight against the conditioning…However, most probably just go along with it.

Also, you are right about black men being praised for loving black beauty…Why? Its a given…White men arent praised for appreciating white beauty because its a given that WM find WW attractive

@Gata

SO although the number of racist white and nonblack men outnumbers nonracists, the minority of white and nonblack men who DO like black women and want to date and marry us truly appreciate AFRICAN beauty.

Of course the non-black men who want to seriously date/marry black women appreciate black beauty…However looking at marriage rates and the sort its obvious that black men are FAR more willing to date and marry black women than any other group of men. Non-black men outnumber black men something like 8-9 to 1. After we sort out who is open to dating black women the RAW NUMBER of nonblack men willing to date balck women will be higher than the number of black men wanting to date black women. That doesnt change the proportion over all, if only 15% of non-BM want BW and 85% of BM want BW, BM AS A GROUP like BW more, even though number wise more non-BM like BW than BM.

This is not the case with Black men as there is a larger group of them who will date and even marry us while WORSHIPPING white womanhood.

If these black men truly worshiped white womanhood, they would be marry white women. Its not that hard for a black man to find a white woman. For every 1 black man there are 4-5 white women. More than enough for these so-called “white-worshiping” black men. Men marry who they deem to be the best fit and women they appreciate the most.

Please do not confuse black men who DATE black women to black men who APPRECIATE black women or black beauty.

Men, 9 times out of 10 , date women they like looking at and have the most access to. I have never heard of a man seriously dating, let alone marrying a woman he cant appreciate physically. The two go hand in hand.

Sometimes I feel black men cant win for losing. If they prefer non-black women they are conditioned. If they end up with black women its only because they couldnt find a white/non-black woman willing to get involved with them.

I don’t know about non-American black men. I think there are a greater number of them that appreciate black beauty, even though they (W. African and W. Indian men) tend to be colorist, IME, they don’t flat-out think non-black women are better.

Sorry if i didnt make myself clear…yes and individual non-black man that appreciates African beauty is good by me, however I would be careful NOT to use one man’s preference as grounds to praise a whole group of men. At best non-black(especially white) men are indifferent to black women atr worst…well I’ll let the John Mayors’ and Don Imus’ speak for themselves.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you. Indeed, one man who likes you is good for you, but it says nothing about said man’s group.

For every 1 black man there are 4-5 white women. More than enough for these so-called “white-worshiping” black men.

True, but it’s not just who black men like. How many white women are ready to marry and seriously date black men?

On the other hand, I do believe many men marry women who they don’t find THAT attractive. Many don’t, but they often marry women who they find to be of average appearance, for whatever reason. There even seems to be the “rule” among men, to have sex with hot girls but marry those who have other qualities.

“Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part…I would think blacks and non-whites watching TV would at least realizes there is something wrong with the misrepresentation of non-whites on TV, thus fight against the conditioning…However, most probably just go along with it.”

I’m at the point where I feel like: leave black women out of the media. Period. It’s been working for Asian women. Because the media seems incapable of presenting black women in a positive light, or at the very least, neutral light. It’s either they find a black woman that is not representative of black women as a group, or they present black women in negative ways. So, just leave black women be, please.

I can see where you are coming from with marriage rates, but there could be a whole host of reasons why black men marry black women more, besides because they appreciate “true” black beauty. And, as the rate of interracial marriages amongst blacks continues to increase at breakneck speed, you might be wanting to think twice about this issue. At last count, we were at 22 percent (of black men) interracially married. And only ~40 percent married, period. That’s about even.

“Sometimes I feel black men cant win for losing. If they prefer non-black women they are conditioned. If they end up with black women its only because they couldnt find a white/non-black woman willing to get involved with them.”

Who thinks this? I don’t. There are black men who do truly like black women, above all others. And many of these are married to black women. But what Gata is saying is that just being married to or dating a black women doesn’t mean you appreciate black women.

“A new study shows that more and more black men are marrying women of other races. In fact, more than 1 in 5 black men who wed (22 percent) married a nonblack woman in 2008. This compares with about 9 percent of black women, and represents a significant increase for black men — from 15.7 percent in 2000 and 7.9 percent in 1980.”

This one focused on only 2008, but the overall figures are the same. 14 percent to white women, 22 percent overall.

But… this discussion isn’t about black men. So I’ll stop there; the last several comments seem to be derailing.

“a new study shows that more and more black men are marrying women of other races. In fact, more than 1 in 5 black men who wed (22 percent) married a non-black woman in 2008″.

Menelik replies:

I was aware of this study, and knew it referred to the year 2008…I also knew that you made NO reference in your original assertion which stated that:

“at last count, we were at 22 percent (of black men) interracially married”.

Menelik says:

This is false since you omitted to mention the stat referred to Black men who married in the year 2008! Overall, over 90% of married Black men are married TO Black women. Why heavily suggest otherwise?

Look, I’m working. I will find the article for you later. It exists. I’m not just pulling these numbers out of the sky. I have no personal stake in this (unlike others… not saying any names); whatever the number is really insignificant to me, personally, because I’m already in a relationship.

@Natasha
Yes, the vast majority of black men all over the world are extremely colorist. This is proof that they WORSHIP white womanhood.

Worshipping white womanhood is an INDIRECT form of worshipping white women by valuing everything they have. If a black man has a strong preference for light skin over dark skin, straight hair over kinky hair, or thinks white women are overall classier than black women because of cultural differences, he worships white womanhood. Sorry, but I have never knowingly met a black man who does not fit this category.

And although many white people are colorist, amongst black people, whiteness is more definitively prized as what is beautiful or classy. There is no spectrum, range, or diversity. It is all centered around whiteness.

White people were raised to be free and open to anything they want to be or do and not CONFINED by stereotypes the way blacks are, and they tend to be more open to other cultural ideals of beauty. I find that some of them don’t always want to be around carbon copies of themselves and that is one of the reasons why they tend to be more appreciative of something completely opposite i.e. African beauty.

I agree with you regarding Nigerian men. A former boss was Nigerian, his wife also. But he seemed obsessed with light skinned women. He had affairs with them and hired mostly light skinned black women or white blondes.

I agree with you regarding Nigerian men. A former boss was Nigerian, his wife also. But he seemed obsessed with light skinned women. He had affairs with them and hired mostly light skinned black women or white blondes.

White people were raised to be free and open to anything they want to be…

Menelik replies:

then white racism, as it is called, should not be so prevalent should it? Or is it natural? I mean, do white men, for example, overwhelmingly prefer skinny blondes to buxom brunettes (colorist and sizest methinks)? If so, is this due to the influence of the white-male dominated mass media? I could go and…

I read the article. It appears they are saying that in total 14 % of black men and 6.5% of black women are in interracial marriages. Not just in 2008. I wonder where they came up with these figures. Well, we will know for sure when the 2010 census figures come out.

@Y
I agree with you 100%. I don’t think it is good to assume that black men appreciate black women less than white men. Many white men, just like black men have been brainwashed by the media. Black men are still way more likely to marry black women, more so than any other group. I also agree with you that when dating or searching for a mate, one should look at men on a individual by individual basis. There are men who love black women who are black, white, Asian, etc. It is not fair to judge all men based on the reactions of some.

Y: “Sometimes I feel black men cant win for losing. If they prefer non-black women they are conditioned. If they end up with black women its only because they couldn’t find a white/non-black woman willing to get involved with them.”

Isn’t it racist in and of itself to prefer a certain race of woman over others?

If a woman went around saying, “Whooo! Mexican men just turn me on!” it isn’t just a issue of preference. Its an issue of racism. Exotifying and objectifying a group of people as the object of your sexual attractions because of some generally shared physical characteristic or cultural aspect IS racist. Although some would argue the contrary.

In my experience, yes, a lot of Black men do have issues with colorism and an inbred attitude of devaluing Black women and sometimes women in general. [Examples: I like curly Cuban hair. I like big Latina booties. I prefer docile Asians. I like thin white girls straight hair and blue eyes. Mmm–Chinese eyes. I just flat out can’t resist white skinneded wimmin. Etc. etc. They even only like certain types of Black women.]

Disclaimer: When I speak of racism, I don’t exclude all facets of racism but I tend to be referring the things about racism that I find harmful bigoted and dangerous.

I don’t think about stats, how many black men are dating/marrying white women or are dating/marrying outside of their race. Its about attitudes, how men are socialized, and why they think hunting after women of a specific race is OK. A much more difficult thing to address or get at since the reasons may vary greatly from person to person.

Really, I think some Black men don’t date Black women because some of us are–as the saying goes–hip to how the whole race and gender games work. Black women, I’m proud to say, are not stupid as a group.

“Yes, the vast majority of black men all over the world are extremely colorist. This is proof that they WORSHIP white womanhood.”

Colorism, especially amongst non-American groups, is not all about white supremacy/white women. It’s more about class. Darker-skinned people are presumed to work outside, doing manual labor, and lighter-skinned people are presumed to not have to work; they are assumed to be “upper class.” Colorism was in effect before most black people ever set eyes on a white person, before Europeans ever had contact with the continent of Africa. White supremacy has exacerbated it, but it wasn’t what started it.

“Worshipping white womanhood is an INDIRECT form of worshipping white women by valuing everything they have. If a black man has a strong preference for light skin over dark skin, straight hair over kinky hair, or thinks white women are overall classier than black women because of cultural differences, he worships white womanhood. Sorry, but I have never knowingly met a black man who does not fit this category.”

I have, but I agree they’re not as common. Don’t know about the “classier” bit… never heard of that one.

@Menelik
I am saying that they were raised to be free to be anything they want to be, meaning they do not have to be confined to ideals of “whiteness” because there is no standard idea of what “whiteness” is. Whiteness can be anything and everything-whiteness can be doing anything on the earth at any given time. There are no boundaries or expectations. Basically they are typically raised with a blank canvass that says “I am human, and I do whatever I want” whereas blacks are typically raised with a painted canvass that says “I’m black, here is what I can do and can’t do”.

That being said, your observation on how racist and brainwashed whites can be has nothing to do with what I just said. It is totally irrelevant. Actually most white people do not believe they are racist at all, so their mentality has already caused them to separate themselves from certain labels that are widely associated with their racial category i.e. “racist”

All I am saying is that given this mentality, many white people feel freer to explore and appreciate other cultures and other cultural beauty standards i.e. African beauty.

“Really, I think some Black men don’t date Black women because some of us are–as the saying goes–hip to how the whole race and gender games work. Black women, I’m proud to say, are not stupid as a group.“

*lifts eyebrow*

Yeaahhh, I don’t know about that one!

LOL.

Just kidding, but it does seem like black women shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. There are smart black women, especially on blogs like these, but the average black women, it seems, doesn’t understand where her best interests lie. She’ll support people who don’t support her, hold on to something/someone that is a lost cause, not vet people and places properly. I think some need to a lesson or two on being wise and protecting themselves and their interest, because no one’s taught them this.

@Natasha
I don’t know where you got that from but I have heard it before. Even if colorism existed before colonialism, the reasons for colorism are completely different now than they were before. Class is directly linked to race. If you are light skinned people think you’re mixed, which means you come from a “better” breed or higher class. In African and Carribean societies, being visibly mixed (light skinned) is associated with being upper class.Colorism in this day and age is a direct result of white supremacy, because whites are at the top of the global socioeconomic hierarchy.

@queenly
I do not think black women as a whole are a wise group. To be quite honest I think most of them need serious guidance. Like Natasha said, black women stand up for people who do not care about them-especially black men. The only people who care about black women’s interests as a whole are (some) other black women, and even some of THEM are delusional and misguided. The intelligent, seemingly well-adjusted black women on the internet do not represent the majority.

White people were raised to be free and open to anything they want to be…

Menelik replies:

then white racism, as it is called, should not be so prevalent should it? Or is it natural? I mean, do white men, for example, overwhelmingly prefer skinny blondes to buxom brunettes (colorist and sizest methinks)? If so, is this due to the influence of the white-male dominated mass media? I could go and…

GataAgressiva replied:

There are no boundaries or expectations. Basically they are typically raised with a blank canvass that says “I am human, and I do whatever I want”.

Menelik replies:

yes, I guess this would make them the ultimate human liberals, right? The ‘liberals’ who happen to be the least likely to date out of their race, and the one race of men least likely (I suspect) to date African-American women. That’s a helluva “blank canvass”!

GaataAgresive said:

many white people feel freer to explore and appreciate other cultures, and other cultural beauty standards i.e. African beauty.

Menelik replies:

funny, this “appreciation” is not reflected in Hollywood or any other area of the mainstream mass media. Are you aware that the term for white in France is ‘blanc’? The “blank canvass” you speak of is pretty white, wouldn’t you say?

“I don’t know where you got that from but I have heard it before. Even if colorism existed before colonialism, the reasons for colorism are completely different now than they were before.”

I was an African Studies minor (well, I would be if I had one more class, but I’ll call it that). Besides the fact that I know Africans better than I know anyone because I grew up around them. West Indians I know mainly secondhand, because there are several married into my family.

The reasons for colorism are many. It is still linked with class, but yes, white supremacy has been added. The straight hair preference is almost completely due to white supremacy.

“Class is directly linked to race. If you are light skinned people think you’re mixed, which means you come from a “better” breed or higher class. In African and Carribean societies, being visibly mixed (light skinned) is associated with being upper class.”

Why does being light-skinned equal mixed? I don’t want to get into this issue (yet again), but depending on what you perceive light skin to be, there are plenty of blacks that aren’t mixed who have lighter skin. People in Africa won’t generally assume you are mixed if you’re lighter-skinned (especially if you’re like most lighter-skinned black people who still have the same features as darker-skinned blacks), although they will call you “white” or “yellow” its a descriptor of actual color and not ethnicity.

@Menelik
A blank canvass does not imply that you will be liberal. It implies that you are raised to believe you can be whatever you want to be. Some people choose to be liberal, others choose to be conservative. Some choose to date only whites, some only date blacks. And for those who choose to be racist-why do you care so much?

And who cares that this “appreciation” is not reflected in Hollywood? If you disapprove of Hollywood, stop watching their movies. I did years ago. Hollywood does not represent all white people’s values and beliefs-their products are popular with all racial groups all over the world, and they are made by a small group of whites and Jews. Big whoop.

It sounds like you are resentful of the fact that some white people appreciate African beauty. Hate to break it to you, but that has been my experience. I get a lot more compliments on my appearance from whites than blacks, and most of the men who show interest in me are white or nonblack. And no, I look nothing like the Hollywood ideal-I look like good ol’ me! I couldn’t give a damn about what the majority wants as long as there are some who will take me as I am.

Darker-skinned people are presumed to work outside, doing manual labor, and lighter-skinned people are presumed to not have to work; they are assumed to be “upper class.”

In some cultures in Europe, especially up North, this has flipped over to the opposite after the war. Brown/tanned skin started to be regarded as a sign of wealth. Someone who doesn’t need to be inside the factory or office all day. Someone who can afford not to work or who can afford holidays in the sun.

The fear of melanoma had this trend somewhat weakened but the number of “orange” people, especially British, German and Dutch women is still quite high.

I read the article. It appears they are saying that in total 14 % of black men and 6.5% of black women are in interracial marriages. Not just in 2008. I wonder where they came up with these figures. Well, we will know for sure when the 2010 census figures come out.

I don’t know about the figures, but married Black men != all Black men. According to Natasha’s stats, the 22% comes about when the denominator is married Black men, while it appears the denominator you reference applies to all Black men. I would expect that to be higher than the percentage you gave because all Black men > married Black men. And it’s not contradictory to say that, among a group of married Black men, more (proportionally)will be married to non-Black women than among a group of Black men in general (because that percentage is being “lowered” by unmarried Black men, gay Black men, Black men ineligible to marry, etc.)

It sounds like you are resentful of the fact that some white people appreciate African beauty.

Menelik replies:

you really can’t take telling, can you? Friend and foe alike know full well that what you’ve written (and what I’ve quoted you saying) is pure nonsense (doubtless, they will now co-sign it!), and so to compound matters you make up straw men, and false accusation, to support this nonsense. Such dishonesty is unusual, even on here!

And now I’m apparently “resentful of the fact that some white people appreciate African beauty”. Really? I’ve spent the better part of half my life (18 years!) researching a single book in which I write exclusively about white men and women’s envy and appreciation of Black women!

Duh!

Man, I’d hate to have the thoughts which reside in your head; really, I would!

I agree with Femi. Being tanned is an imperative in my culture. If you are pale, you are considered ugly, end of story. In my grandparent’s generation, to be pale was considered beautiful. In my parent’s generation, being tanned during summer holidays but pale in winter was seen as ok. But in my generation, being pale even during winter is a huge no-no. So there are a lot of orange girls here.

I thought that the 22% figure came from the number of black men who married non-black women in the year 2008 only. But that the 14% number is the number of married black men who are married to non-black women. In other words, the 14% number comes from when the denominator is MARRIED black men, not the total number of black men.

I wouldn’t know, I didn’t read it. But in your post you referred to Black men (and women) in general, not married Black men specifically. I didn’t read your post as contradictory, the phrasing was just not specific enough. And the numbers still make sense, statistically. The denominator of “married Black men in 2008” is obviously smaller than the denominator of “married Black men ever”. I’m assuming people care more about the 2008 statistic because current marriage trends are more relevant to the future (of Black people who want to date and marry) than stand-alone statistics of the proportion of Black people alive who are married to someone non-Black.

I agree with you. The 2008 statistics are important! It does tell you the current trend in terms of interracial relationships. Whether it is 22% or 14%, the numbers are still high. But I was just trying to help clear up any confusion. That is all.

>>Exotifying and objectifying a group of people as the object of your sexual attractions because of some generally shared physical characteristic or cultural aspect IS racist. Although some would argue the contrary.<<

Yes, I would argue the contrary. As has been discussed here and other places, "race" is merely a social construct that cannot even be biologically determined. However, physical characteristics can be biologically determined as "real things."

If a man loves plush lips on a woman, that is not "racist" because plush lips are not "race." I like plush lips–I consider them a plus on almost any woman, black or white. If I take a second look at a woman like Angelina Jolie or Jolene Blalock, I can guarantee you it's because of her lips. But I feel the same way about Naomi Campbell's lips.

I understand what you are saying. But alot of people believe that when people have a preoccupation with people of a certain race, it is not just about loving certain characteristics like long hair or full lips. For some people, that might be the case, but for other people, liking a certain race of women has to do with seeing these women as “superior” or as being in a “better class”. For instance, lets say you have two women, both look extremely similar to each other, same length hair, same features, but one women has white skin and looks full Causasion and the other one has light brown skin, and is clearly mixed with African. Some men may believe in their minds that the white one is nicer, smarter, more patient, prettier etc. It is often a subconscious feeling. So liking a certain race isn’t always about liking certain features, although it can be that way sometimes.

Example: I personally like various shades of brown skin and jet black hair on a man. I also like tacos and arroz con leche. Do I go trolling in Latino populations just because I’m more likely to find tacos, arroz con leche, AND the features I like on a man there in those communities? No, I don’t.

What you’re forgetting in your little example about lips is how some men stereotype certain races of women, typically for having physical charateristics or personality traits they like (big lips, big butts, thin waists, docility, agressiveness, etc. etc. ) Y (RACE) = X (DESIRABLE CHARATERISTICS), for some people.

Okay?

Oh and FYI: Angelina Jolie’s lips are fat from her butt or something if you didn’t know. I’m just sayin’.

“I understand what you are saying. But alot of people believe that when people have a preoccupation with people of a certain race, it is not just about loving certain characteristics like long hair or full lips.”

Especially because there is no “race” of people who uniformly possess and set of features you care to name. There are Asian women with short, lusterless hair, there are Black women with flat butts. All these ethnic feature preferences are sweeping generalities.

But I am not totally disagreeing with you. Alot of people just like a certain look. For instance, I like curly hair and full lips. If I see full lips or curly hair on a man, regardless of race, it does something for me. So yeah, that is often the case. It is that race means different things to different people.

I’ve said it but I say it again: I like ALL women. There are very attractive women in all colors, sizes and shapes.

Black women are not beautiful just because they are black, but because they are beautiful. Many black women are attractive because of their looks, but I think it has a lot to do about their sense of being. Oh, darn, this is hard to explain, but I try:

Many white women are insecure, full of troubles, unhappy about their looks and such, and in many cases they show it. When you say to a white woman how good she looks, she shoots back: Why are you Bulls***ting me? Can’t you see that I have sellulite here and there, that I’m overweight, that my toes are not nice, that I have a pimple on my butt etc.

Black women are usually more at ease with themselves and proud of what they are. Maybe this is false impression, but it looks like that. And this makes them more sure and more attractive. A black woman can be little on the heavy side, but her attitude is: I’m here and I’m all woman! Take it or leave it! And I, for one, like that kind of women.

Like I’ve told before, the best woman I have ever met was a black woman. Not only she was a godess of beauty in my eyes, she was funny and smart and very, very intelligent. She was all a man could hope for, in every way. I would have married her in a minute. She did not think me that way 😀 so we never became anything else than friends. But she had it all: the looks, the personality and she was so sexy she could melt the ice in the drinks across the restaurant.

So my attraction to her was not only because she was black, but because she was everything I ever wanted from a woman. She just happened to be black. And those who here say that white guys like the light skinned black women, that is not true. This woman was black, very dark. I mean she was as black as person can be. It did not make any difference even if she was that dark. She was and still is the woman of my dreams.

And on that note: the womens magazines and fashion stuff are NOT run nor guided by white heterosexual males at all. Name one straight man who is the editor of a major fashion magazine anywhere in the world. Yep, there are none. They are all women. Name one straight guy who dictates that we must have skinny white pre-pub girls in catwalks and pictures, that this is beautiful. Again: There are none.

Most stories about skinny white small butt women are written by white women. Overwhelming majority about the writers who bark on magazines how you must get rid of all the fat and look like a marathon runner or concetration camp prisoner are white women. In many cases these women look nothing like that themselves. In some cases they are overweight and over the hill. When they demonize real women with curves, they are actually talking to themselves. They are venting their own frustrations and weak selfimages, and feed them to others.

Women, and this goes for any color, should be proud of themselves. That is sexy. That makes you look good. I’ve met a model who was just the ideal for the fashion industry and she was as sexy as a paper cup. Not only she was stupid ignoramus, she also was mean. She was not beautiful in any sense. She was a freak to whom other freaks were telling all the time how good looking she was. I would never have a woman like that in my house.

But this black woman, whose smile made my heart sing and dance, I would welcome with open arms at any time. Not because she was black, but because she was her.

“Well said! It is about time someone said they like a woman for her confidence and self love, and not just because of her body or outer appearance.”

I think most guys learn this lesson at some point along the way. If you go with the “She’s gotta have” checklist, you’ll find yourself bored to death with every one of the features you thought were so necessary, if you don’t love the actual person.

“And on that note: the womens magazines and fashion stuff are NOT run nor guided by white heterosexual males at all. Name one straight man who is the editor of a major fashion magazine anywhere in the world. Yep, there are none. They are all women. Name one straight guy who dictates that we must have skinny white pre-pub girls in catwalks and pictures, that this is beautiful. Again: There are none”

Oh, here we go again. I’m so tired of hearing this same old, tired story. I hate to keep harping on this, but it is not good to put others down (no matter how much they are “praised” in the media) to make another group seem better or just as good. Sam, there are some actual designers who are straight, hetrosexual, married males. Tommy Heilgeger, and all of the urban designers who use thin models. It’s just the nature of the business. Such as, there are no short NBA basketball players. I’ve never once heard anyone bash the NBA organization for that. Rant over. Continue.

Jeri–>>Some men may believe in their minds that the white one is nicer, smarter, more patient, prettier etc. <>I think you’re reading me wrong. And you’re getting smart with the wrong person.<>Oh and FYI: Angelina Jolie’s lips are fat from her butt or something if you didn’t know. I’m just sayin’.<<

Her mother must have had it done to her when she was a small child, then.

Angelina Jolie’s lips have not always looked like that. I don’t care if she’s related to Eve of the Original Full Lips–Jolie’s plump bottom lip especially is the result of cosmetic surgery. I would say about 83% of what you see in Hollywood and advertisements is NOT unaltered by Photoshop image editing inhumane dieting regimens and cosmetic surgery (i.e. Angelina Jolie’s lips). I hope that doesn’t ruin your fantasies.

I get it. You like full lips. Moving on.

@ Jeri & King:

Pretty good. I like it.

@ islandgirl

Making the standards of these industries such as modeling and competitive sports seem normal is part of the problem. There is nothing “natural” about these industries. Normalizing the negative impacts of these dominant industries is the problem. Its not about putting people down. Its about giving them the criticism they are due. Even the people who openly or mindlessly support them.

Thanks… I really dont get people saying non-black men value black beauty more…its just as ridiculous as when I hear black men say white women as a group understand and treat black men better. When what I’m seeing with my own eyes says otherwise. I understand what were they are coming from but when we look at this from a statistical point of view (not numerical) its obvious which group is more willing to date, mate, and marry black women.

@ Ms. Queenly

It depends. Some people have preferences that are based on racial-socioeconomic hierarchy, racialized beauty standards and the sort. I dont like to go into personal preferences because it leads down slippery slope. I’d hate to accuse men(and women) with innocent preferences of fetishism and racism. For sure their are people that have partner preferences based on racism…For example there are non-black men that like to be dominated and emasculated by their women and seek out black women to fulfill that role(think Sapphire stereotype), there are other men that like the idea of a docile, “Dragon Lady” and seek out East Asian women…however there are men that simply prefer the African and east Asian aesthetic on their women. Im not going to accuse those men of being racist and hating other females just because they prefer a certain race.

I think people at to quick to associate preferences that involve race with racism. Personally, I like all races of men, but I do like some races more than others. The men I dont find attractive I dont think any less of them as men, and have nothing against them personally, professionally, or otherwise.

The litmus test I use is this: If a guy that likes Asian women the most ignores fine-as-hell non-Asian women in favor of mediocre or less Asian women, he has a fetish. Also if I hear a person say they have NEVER seen a person of X race that is attractive, they have an issue.

I’ve grown up in communities of Black women in the Southern United States where if a man chooses another woman because her skin is lighter or her waist is thinner…she knows its because her waist was too thick for him and her skin was too dark. Oftentimes its an intuitive sixth sense if you will. Most of the time they can tell just by how a man acts around other women and how he looks at them. Even how he talks about them. Its like reading a book. Its called “the read” or “reading a b***h”.

Heterosexual men (generalization coming) want women to cater to their male egos. In exchange they will cater to a woman’s vanity (and in traditional marriage or dating relationship a woman’s financial needs and all the little niceties that come with that). A woman who won’t cater to a man’s ego is too “strong” or stubborn; she bruises or breaks the heterosexual man’s pride as a male and that is not allowed obviously. They need to feel like men (not a person–a man) or the whole of the universe and cosmos will shatter as the earth stops spinning etc. etc.

I respect your opinion and I definitely agree that its good to hold judgment sometimes when dealing with people’s preferences. A degree of caution enters my mind. Sometimes it drives me crazy to even have to consider criticizing people for it because I don’t want to hurt their feelings or make them feel bad. The first thing they say is “Oh you’re accusing me of being a bad person!”.

However in my experiences–especially with men–they’re preferences are oftentimes motivated by racism. They just don’t want anyone to call them on it; they’re afraid somebody will and some women protect their privilege to get away with it (probably because they’re just as guilty). Fetishizing and exotifying women racially like they’re commodities (“Which brand of meat would you prefer. We have a selection–Asian or Black”–right) just makes me sick.

Trolling for women based on perceived distinctions in race is racist and oftentimes in the most negative way. True story.

amen islandgirl. it’s the same old same old. there are some straight men in the fashion industry and don’t you think maybe they just prefer thin women? i mean damn is it a crime to be thin and have to be accused of looking like a boy? i guess god gave me the wrong body huh? one minute women comes in all shapes and sizes but then you put down thin women because there aren’t enough curvy women in the business. why get mad at the fashion industry when we all know that’s what they want? it’s not going to change.

Well, there has been players in NBA who have been much shorter than the average. One was 170cm plus, if I recall correctly.

The reason I brought this up is not that I want to “put down” women who are thin per sé. What I don’t like is this: the image of unhealthy teenage girl presented as the universal beauty ideal for women. So called “Heroin chich” comes to mind. Not too nice model of womanhood for young girls growing up, is it? I mean: Heroin chic? Cool?

The absolute fact is that there is not a single straight man at the helm of any one fashion magazine. Editors are all women. And yet, somehow, when (mostly) women critize the industry and the image of a woman they present, somehow it is because there are (supposedly) heterosexual men behind this crap. Somehow, even though it is not true, anorexia, bulimia and other disorders brought by the obsession of the thin are because of us, normal guys.

It is not true. Make a list of a hundred fashion designers, fashion editors, bloggers, whom ever, and see how many of them are normal straight guys. Majority are women and gay/bi-men. So next time your daughter is fighting bulimia or anorexia, don’t put the blame on us, the straight guys. Next time your daughter begans to smoke in order to loose appetite in order to stay skinny, don’t blame us. Next time your daughter wants to use chemicals to be skinny, don’t blame me.

The idea that somehow it is the Heterosexual Man behind this type opression of women is and old feminist agenda. It is not based on any reality, but political ideology. In reality heterosexual males do not control the fashion industry, they do not set the trends, they do not dictate what will be on next weeks Cosmo, Vogue etc. Those desicions are made mostly by other women and not so straight guys.

I’ve had thin women. I don’t hate naturally thin women. I have nothing against them. I have nothing against gays, I have many gay friends. As a matter of fact, it was one of my gay friends who pointed out that there are no straight males as editors in fashion magazines. It is just so.

We all should understand that behind these bodyimages is one purpose: to sell stuff. Be that clothes, dietary supplements, diets, aerobic dvd’s, cosmetics, plastic surgery and what not. That is the point in all of this. And if and when women realise this and start to be proud of themselves, this hoopla will subdue. It will have less effect on them and their daughters.

So what this has to do with a black woman? Well, many here have been talking about the white womans image as it’s been presented as something universal and desirable. That is part of this problem. When we will see normal black woman in the cover of the Vogue?? That is a The Question.

So, all in all, if 22% or black men are in IR marriages, and 40% of all black men are married, it means around 9% of all black men are in IR marriages. This doesn’t sound like a high number for all black men. But it’s certainly a significant part of married black men. It means 22 married men in 100 is married to a non-black woman.

Obviously, there’s nothing wrong in being thin, especially if you are naturally thin and healthy. The fact media promotes thin women doesn’t mean others have a full right to hate and attack thin women. And contrary to what “some” people here believe, being thin is not less feminine and it doesn’t mean a woman is less fertile or that she’ll have problems during childbirth.

On the other hand, hearing over and over and over again that one particular body shape is beautiful and others are ugly and not worth love and attention is tiring to say the least. Especially when being skinny is taken to an extreme, when it’s not healthy anymore.

Men always made rules what is considered attractive on a woman, and women did everything to could to fit this beauty ideal. It’s been happening for centuries. Women tortured themselves, put their bodies in uncomfortable clothes with wires, they mutilated their feet, etc. Only to fit this ideal. And while men were the ones who created the ideal WOMEN were always the ones who insisted on it, often humiliating those who don’t fit said beauty ideal or those who fit better than themselves.

So it doesn’t really matter if gay or straight men started thin model beauty ideals- it’s the women who keep it and women are those who’d trash another woman for not fitting the ideal OR fitting better than themselves. So in either case, you can’t win here. Woman jealousy is a powerful thing. And men just sit an enjoy, so to speak.

I think women should really stop doing all of that for men.

Such as, there are no short NBA basketball players.

Muggsy Bogues?

PS-As for Angelina Jolie, she has her father’s lips. It’s the same shape and everything. I don’t know if she “enchanted” them a bit or not, but her father had full lips of the same shape when he was young.

I must admit I don’t always agree with your comments on women, but your last couple of posts were really good, imo.

Many white women are insecure, full of troubles, unhappy about their looks and such, and in many cases they show it. When you say to a white woman how good she looks, she shoots back: Why are you Bulls***ting me?

Oh yes, this is true. Well, I don’t know if it’s a white thing, but it definitely exist. I can imagine how tiring it is to give women a compliment and instead of simple “thank you”, you get this crap (which, btw, often fishing for more compliments and not general “I am ugly” whining).

Can’t you see that I have sellulite here and there

It’s “cellulite”. 😀

Black women are usually more at ease with themselves and proud of what they are.

I’ll take your word on this. This is a good attitude. You can’t change who you are, and, more often than not, you SHOULD NOT change who you are, so “take it or leave it” attitude is the right one.

If black women are indeed like this, I wonder if it has something to do with racism. In a way, they grow up knowing they could never fit a white beauty ideal (even if they are thin, light skinned and have long straight hair), so I guess some of them don’t even try. While white women are brainwashed to believe they can fit this beauty ideal, only if they try harder and if they BUY more products. Which brings us to the point.

Cosmetic and other companies need women to be dissatisfied with how they look in order to buy their products. That’s why female magazines never fail to remind you you are never thin enough, never depilated enough, never cellulite free enough, that you don’t have enough good shoes and clothes, etc etc. And yes, it’s that simple. Being satisfied with yourself is the last thing companies need.

On the other hand, magazines are fully of psychology advice on how to love yourself and be who you are… So it’s a really crazy situation and no wonder girls and women who read those magazines with passion are often miserable (because they send so many conflicting messages. You should love yourself, but you MUST lose weight in order to be satisfied). It’s ugly people, very ugly!

On the other hand, I don’t agree with sam that men don’t like thin women. Many do. Many do because that’s what they see in media. I know it’s like this in my culture (and it’s really, really strict), but I believe it’s happening in many cultures. Many guys grow up with being bombarded with images of thin women and they are led to believe that’s what is hot. If one of those 16 year old boys even mention he likes women with full figure, his mates make a fun of him, as if he has some unnatural and embarrassing fetishes. The funny thing is, this boy’s father was taught that women with hourglass figure are the hottest and that skinny women are ugly. That’s how it goes, I guess.

PS-Some of these boys grow into men who can think for themselves and who don’t care about what media tells them. Others don’t.

No. 91% of ALL black men are NOT married to non-black woman. But 60% of ALL black men are not married at all.

If we take a look at those who are married, and that’s the only thing that matters here, 22% are not married to black women. And yes, it still means 78% are married to black women, but it is a significant percentage. It’s almost 1/4 of all married black men.

As for percentage of ALL black men married to black women, you get 31. Which means 31 black man in 100 is married to a black woman, as the opposite to 9 who are married to non-white. 31+9=40, which makes the number of all married black men.

So, out of 100 black men:

60 are not married at all.
Out of the married 40,
31 are married to black women, and 9 to non-black.

It means 22% married black men are not married to black women. It is not a majority, but it’s a significant percentage.

so of the 100% of married Black men, only 9% married inter-racially, right?

No. 22% married interracially.

Let’s try this again.

60% or black men are NOT MARRIED AT ALL. Not to black woman, or to non-black one. 60 black men in 100 are not married at all, so we should not take them into account here.

We are looking at the remaining 40 black men, those who are married. We are only interested in them, because they are who are married. Out of them, 22% are married to a non-black woman, and 78% to a black woman. If you turn that in raw numbers, you get that of those 40, around 31 is married to a black woman, and 9 to a non-black.

But why would we care about how many of ALL black men are married to a non-black woman, if majority of them are not married at all? Natasha never said a significant number of ALL black men are married to a non-black woman; she was talking about those who are married, because they are the ones that matter. Why would we care if a gay black man is not married to a black woman? I mean, it’s expectable for him not to be married at all.

So, in short, Menelik, 22% married black men are not married to black women. That is almost 1/4 of all married black men. It means that more than 1 married black man in 5 is married to a non-black woman.

Now, you can argue whether 22% is a lot, if it’s significant, etc. But note that out of 5 married black men, more than 1 is married to a non-black woman. (Or, if you want to downplay this, out of 5, 1 is not married to a black woman).

It shows that majority of married black men are, indeed, married to black women. This is not an issue. However, a significant number of them, almost 1/4 of them, are not married to black women.

“I really dont get people saying non-black men value black beauty more…its just as ridiculous as when I hear black men say white women as a group understand and treat black men better. When what I’m seeing with my own eyes says otherwise. I understand what were they are coming from but when we look at this from a statistical point of view (not numerical) its obvious which group is more willing to date, mate, and marry black women.”

You’re kicking a straw man, but I’m not sure if you know that you’re doing it. What Gata said is not “non-black men are more willing to date/marry black women.” What she did say was: “…the number of white and nonblack men who appreciate true African beauty (the type you have mentioned here) far outnumbers the number of black men who do.” Now, the veracity of that statement can be challenged, but let’s keep the arguments clear. Even if 100 percent of married black men were with black women, that still doesn’t mean that (a) they married the type of woman mentioned here or (b) that they value “true” black beauty as a whole.

Personally, the men who approach me the most are black men, by far. Has always been (however, I don’t look much like the “black women” outlined in the original post). But, I think white men may be less inclined to approach black women for reasons other than appearance (also, sometimes I didn’t know when they were “flirting” until later, because it was way too subtle). And, I’ve noticed that if you say something first and smile and look interested, they will follow your lead. Lol. They are not hard to get … at all. Say something like “Cool shorts! Where’d you get them from?” and laugh at their jokes, and they will be eating of your hand. Or maybe it’s just me, because recently I’ve gotten several interested in me (not on purpose!), by doing the above. Actually, that’s how I met my SO as well: threw a comment his way.

I have a hard time believing that. I certainly don’t think a street observation would reveal anything like that. I suspect some of the basic statistical collection methods were faulty.

I’d also like to see a breakdown by age…and a definition of “black women.” Did it consider, for instance, dark skinned Latino women or Caribbean women as “black?”

Yes, that is a good question. I have no idea. I worked with the numbers people here gave me: 22% of married black men are married to non-black women, and 40% of all black men are married (and I rounded to full numbers, for example, 8,8 became 9, and 31,2 became 31).

So I don’t know how correct/real these numbers are. The first thing I’d check, like in any other research of this sorts, is what “black” meant to them (in both terms of men and women).

You see, this is a problem with culturally constructed stuff that is taken a s a fact- you can’t get accurate results and do the proper statistical analysis because there are no absolute answers and facts to deal with. Dealing with race is trying to make a social science a hard science.

PS-I guess they went with the way people identify themselves. So a guy who identifies himself as black is black, no matter if he looks like Wentworth Miller or Yaphet Kotto; if his wife identifies herself as black, she is black, no matter if she looks like Rashida Jones or Alek Wek.

“…the number of white and nonblack men who appreciate true African beauty (the type you have mentioned here) far outnumbers the number of black men who do.”

And not to mention that it can be because of numbers only. There are more white men than black in the US, so even a small percentage of them is a lot of people.

But, I think white men may be less inclined to approach black women for reasons other than appearance (also, sometimes I didn’t know when they were “flirting” until later, because it was way too subtle).

I don’t have any experience with non-white men, but yes, many white men flirt in a very subtle way. There are always those who cat-call and are pushy, so you often don’t understand when one of them approaches… And does nothing in particular.

I guess a black woman would completely miss that flirting sign.

“Cool shorts! Where’d you get them from?” and laugh at their jokes, and they will be eating of your hand.

I worked with the numbers people here gave me: 22% of married black men are married to non-black women, and 40% of all black men are married (and I rounded to full numbers, for example, 8,8 became 9, and 31,2 became 31).

I admit, I am a curious person, but your messages in a form of “we’ll see” begin to sound like a bad teaser trailer that says nothing, but instead of making us interested in a movie, fall flat. So please, explain what you’re talking about.

As far as the numbers on interracial marriage and what to “believe”, I guess we will wait for the 2010 Census. Really, I don’t want to discuss this anymore because no matter how many sources I add, people won’t want to believe it because their personal feelings/biases get in the way. So, until later about that issue.

Mira,

“I assumed all of men, regardless of race, are like this. ;)”

Ha. You’re right about that. I’ve just never had to say anything at all with black men. Just be there… they’ll approach when/if they’re interested. But I imagine they’d react similarly in that situation.

You’re kicking a straw man, but I’m not sure if you know that you’re doing it. What Gata said is not “non-black men are more willing to date/marry black women.” What she did say was: “…the number of white and nonblack men who appreciate true African beauty (the type you have mentioned here) far outnumbers the number of black men who do.” Now, the veracity of that statement can be challenged, but let’s keep the arguments clear. Even if 100 percent of married black men were with black women, that still doesn’t mean that (a) they married the type of woman mentioned here or (b) that they value “true” black beauty as a whole.

Sorry but I can only measure who appreciates black beauty more on who is will to date/marry black women. I dont know what the rest of you are measuring it on. I know that not every black man marries a black woman because he thinks black women are the best, prettiest, ect. but when push comes to shove there really is no basis for this “non-black men appreciate black beauty more” meme. Where is the proof? Do people really believe the black women outlined(true ‘African’ beauties) in this post are more sought after by non-black men than black men? Every worldly indication points to NO!

Sorry but I dont count guys too scared/awkward to approach black women as true appreciators of black beauty. If they loved black women so much they would grow a pair and approach us like they do non-black women. Apparently they arent “moved” enough by black beauty to do so.

“Sorry but I can only measure who appreciates black beauty more on who is will to date/marry black women. I dont know what the rest of you are measuring it on. I know that not every black man marries a black woman because he thinks black women are the best, prettiest, ect. but when push comes to shove there really is no basis for this “non-black men appreciate black beauty more” meme. Where is the proof? Do people really believe the black women outlined(true ‘African’ beauties) in this post are more sought after by non-black men than black men? Every worldly indication points to NO!”

LOL. Too true!
Why can’t people get it through their heads that most married black american men are with black american women. Please stop basing your opinions on hollywood, some rappers and a few ignorant loser black men!

And do you guys really think all black men who go after white women do that because they appreciate them? The answer is no, plain and simple. Some are interested in sex only (because they think white women are easy), and even if they marry these white women it doesn’t necessarily mean they appreciate their beauty- they might marry them for racist reasons, to have a trophy white wife as a sign of “success” or something.

So no, I don’t necessarily think number of marriages reflect guys’ interests and who they find truly attractive. Don’t forget ladies, if a guy finds you incredibly and completely attractive to the point he’s unable to think about anything else, he would want to have sex with you, plain and simple, not to marry you. (I am not saying men don’t marry women they are attracted to, but the basic answer to appreciating female beauty is wish to have sex, not to marry them… They don’t even think about marriage or anything like that when they want to appreciate a woman’s beauty. And I think women work the same, actually. But that’s another story).

So while I think many men, of all races, have racist attitudes towards black women, are brainwashed by media and often treat them as not fully human and discriminate against them, I am not sure if it’s easy to tell which race is more guilty of it, OR what appreciating black beauty (or any race’s beauty) truly means and how we can measure it. One thing is certain, though: who men choose to marry is not a good indicator of whose beauty they truly appreciate. (And that goes for both black and white men. I bet there are plenty of white men who like black women but are married to white ones).

“I can only measure who appreciates black beauty more on who is will to date/marry black women. I dont know what the rest of you are measuring it on. I know that not every black man marries a black woman because he thinks black women are the best, prettiest, ect. but when push comes to shove there really is no basis for this “non-black men appreciate black beauty more” meme. Where is the proof? Do people really believe the black women outlined(true ‘African’ beauties) in this post are more sought after by non-black men than black men? Every worldly indication points to NO!”

Here is what I think:

I don’t believe non-black men appreciate more the black women outlined in the post. But I also don’t think the average black man appreciates this woman, either. However, the average black man may be able to more appreciate “black beauty” in general; so, black women in their various forms, just not necessarily or particularly the one in this post, and also not necessarily above and over other ethnicities of women. I think that, if a non-black man is interested in black women, he would be more inclined to appreciate the woman noted here.

That make sense?

Anyway, rereading what Gata said:

…there is no question that the number of nonblack men who appreciate black beauty outnumbers black men. Aside from other factors, it is also an issue of numbers.

SO although the number of racist white and nonblack men outnumbers nonracists, the minority of white and nonblack men who DO like black women and want to date and marry us truly appreciate AFRICAN beauty. “

She acknowledges racist white and non-black men. She is talking about numbers, not percentages. So while the percentage of non-black men who appreciate this kind of beauty may be small in relation to the whole of non-black men, their raw numbers are higher simply because there are more white and non-black men than black men. According to her… does that sound outlandish, still?

“Sorry but I dont count guys too scared/awkward to approach black women as true appreciators of black beauty. If they loved black women so much they would grow a pair and approach us like they do non-black women. Apparently they arent “moved” enough by black beauty to do so.”

A couple of problems with that.

(1) In the U.S. we are not at the point where blacks and whites intermingle often enough that they feel comfortable approaching each other; especially not black women and white men: these people are, for the most part, alien to each other. White men, many times, believe that there is certain way they have to be or a certain way to approach black women. That’s what some have told me and I could certainly see why that would be the case. So they often need cues when it comes to black women, but not so much other women.

(2) Lots of non-black women approach white men. Asian women, for example, make their interest very plain and can be somewhat aggressive in approaching: I’ve seen it lots of times. White men are not just dropping in their laps. Moreover, saying a few words I would hardly count as approaching, really. Some black women say they would never, ever, say anything first to white men, but they do a lot more than this to get some black men and keep them! It’s not like your chasing the guy, you just have to seem open so the ball is in his court.

I don’t believe non-black men appreciate more the black women outlined in the post. But I also don’t think the average black man appreciates this woman, either. However, the average black man may be able to more appreciate “black beauty” in general; so, black women in their various forms, just not necessarily or particularly the one in this post, and also not necessarily above and over other ethnicities of women. I think that, if a non-black man is interested in black women, he would be more inclined to appreciate the woman noted here.

That make sense?

Yes what you are saying here makes perfect sense to me.

She acknowledges racist white and non-black men. She is talking about numbers, not percentages. So while the percentage of non-black men who appreciate this kind of beauty may be small in relation to the whole of non-black men, their raw numbers are higher simply because there are more white and non-black men than black men. According to her… does that sound outlandish, still?

I understand that the non-black men that like black women out number black men based on raw numbers. Thats a given…However I have a problem with people saying non-black men appreciate black beauty more based on raw numbers. Numbers can not be analyzed in a vacuum, I use statistics because they qualify the number to some extent. If anything what Gata is saying that black women shouldnt have a hard time finding non-black men that desire them as mates because BW willing to date out are greatly out numbered by non-BM looking to date BW. However, this say nothing about which groups desires BW more.

– I take your points #1 and#2 but I feel like a lot of WM use that as a cop-out. I went on a date with a very reserved, “nerdy” white man last night. Despite his introverted personality he managed to ask me out, what’s everybody else’s excuse? At the end of the day we cannot change our racial histories but we can leanr to overcome our prejudices and fears. People love to use cite phenomenon beyond their control as reasons for not doing and its a bit played out if you ask me.

Also I agree with #2 even black men say this. Other races of women tend to approach WM and BM, a lot. I have seen how Asian women act around WM…I also think a lot of black women play too cool, to the point where many men (even black ones) figure she isnt interested and move on. I am guilty of this myself. Not to mention black women clowning non-black men that try and hit on them..ect…

Actually, I don’t believe what the media says regarding Black mens’ IR rate. In real life, while I see a few Black men with non-Black women, the overwhelming majority of Black men are with or are married to Black women. 90% of Black men are married to Black women period. Please don’t believe the media hype, people.

La Reyna, it’s not “media hype.” If/when the 2010 Census comes out with their figures, will everyone call it media hype simply because their personal experiences tell them differently, or they don’t “want” to believe it because they have personal investments in the converse? Stats are always good, except when they conflict with personal feelings, I guess? People should know by now that personal experiences are just that — personal. While personal experiences are helpful and necessary, they may or may not reflect the facts.

Also, the vast majority of black men could be with black women, and probably are. Most relationships are intraracial, that’s a given; when you see a black man out with someone, it will more than likely be a black woman. However, the stats don’t address dating, intimacy, or long-term relationships, but marriage. Repeat: marriage. That’s it. Not who is dating or screwing who. And blacks have the lowest marriage rates across the board, so most definitely 90 percent of black men or women, are not married to their counterparts because… there isn’t 90 percent of either black men or black women married! *gasp*

Okay… end. I’ve said all I need to say regarding that, really this time.

(1) In the U.S. we are not at the point where blacks and whites intermingle often enough that they feel comfortable approaching each other; especially not black women and white men: these people are, for the most part, alien to each other. White men, many times, believe that there is certain way they have to be or a certain way to approach black women. That’s what some have told me and I could certainly see why that would be the case. So they often need cues when it comes to black women, but not so much other women.

(2) Lots of non-black women approach white men. Asian women, for example, make their interest very plain and can be somewhat aggressive in approaching: I’ve seen it lots of times. White men are not just dropping in their laps. Moreover, saying a few words I would hardly count as approaching, really. Some black women say they would never, ever, say anything first to white men, but they do a lot more than this to get some black men and keep them! It’s not like your chasing the guy, you just have to seem open so the ball is in his court.

laromana says,
Natasha W.
1) ANTI-BW COWARDICE is the main reason WM in America believe they have to “approach BW differently than NON-BW”
I wish men of ALL races would learn the FACT that BW are NORMAL, HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL WOMEN not STEREOTYPES and treat us accordingly.

2) I hate when the relationship behavior of NON-BW is compared to that of BW as if there was NO difference in the way BW are viewed in American culture in comparison to NON-BW.
It’s not surprising that NON-BW are more confident/aggressive in their approach to WM. NON-BW KNOW they are considered ACCEPTABLE to MOST WM and have a good chance of being able to initiate a serious dating and or marriage relationship with them.
This is DEFINITELY NOT the case for MOST BW and it makes sense that BW are more cautious/less confident in their approach to WM given the fact that MOST WM in America are either ANTI-BW COWARDS/ANTI-BW RACISTS.

“1) ANTI-BW COWARDICE is the main reason WM in America believe they have to “approach BW differently than NON-BW”
I wish men of ALL races would learn the FACT that BW are NORMAL, HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL WOMEN not STEREOTYPES and treat us accordingly.”

Sometimes it’s also ignorance or misinformation. You have to account for the fact that there’s been many years of negative portrayals of BW in the media. Consciously or subconsciously, that plays a part too.

“If anything what Gata is saying that black women shouldnt have a hard time finding non-black men that desire them as mates because BW willing to date out are greatly out numbered by non-BM looking to date BW.”

When did she say that?

I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t believe most black women really think about non-black men in a romantic sense. They recognize them as men, and they may even be attracted to them, but do they see them as dateable, marriageable men? Lol, no. Some do (and somehow they all ended up online), but most don’t, for many reasons.

“I take your points #1 and#2 but I feel like a lot of WM use that as a cop-out.”

Normally I’d take it as a cop-out, but it’s not like anyone asked them “Why don’t you date black women?” They just offered. And you’ll find, even many of the non-black men that are with black women will say the same thing… it’s a recurring message. Which makes me think it has to be more than an excuse.

“Not to mention black women clowning non-black men that try and hit on them..ect…”

I have to admit, I laugh whenever I see this. Lol. I know, I’m mean. But it’s so… difficult not to. I’m probably not helping to assuage their fears.

There is know way of knowing really. Not all black men that marry/get involved with WW “worship” their womanhood. Some say they are easier to bed/deal with…Some just like they way WW look. Others happen to fall in love with WW. It depends.

I use marriage as a good indicator of how much a man values/trusts a woman. Think about it, your spouse is going to raise your kids, care for you when you get sick, has access(and co-ownership) to all of your worldly possessions, and decides your fate if you become a vegetable(comatose). Thats some heavy sh!t and you have to make sure the person has your back big time. By far black women are the most preferred for black men looking to marry. Yes IRR numbers are rising, that could be because of lax racial attitudes or because of devaluation of black womanhood. It maybe a little of both.

#1 — Yeeahhh. A little. Maybe. I don’t think it’s all about being “anti-bw” as much as not having any real interaction with black women besides media, which says that black women/blacks aren’t that fond of white men/whites.

But no, I can’t relate. I’ve never thought I was less acceptable than other women. I thought their might be a culture clash (or men might perceive that their would be one, so they would be more hesitant), but I thought that was the main boundary and it could be overcome, somehow.

I could be wrong but I think by “worshipping” Gata meant the overvaluation of whatever traits are associated with white women or perceived to be associated with white women. Gata might need to get in here to clarify.

“If anything what Gata is saying that black women shouldnt have a hard time finding non-black men that desire them as mates because BW willing to date out are greatly out numbered by non-BM looking to date BW.”

“Saying someone group in (in one’s experience) is easier to get along with doesnt necessary mean they worship them.

It may be annoying to here black men say that other races of women tend to be more chill but that doesnt always equal worship. Not to me at least.”

Yeah… okay! Sure.

Also, I understand you’re in your “black male ally” phase right now, but no one is trying to bash black men. And trust, if I were to say that white men were less misogynistic, more educated, and better looking (in my experience!), you’d better believe several commenters would not hesitate to put me in the “self-hating/white male worshipping” crew. Actually, I’m in that crew already (a few have insinuated such or outright said so), just by virtue of being with a white guy and daring to say anything less than “black people/men are the bestest!”

Natasha–>>And, I’ve noticed that if you say something first and smile and look interested, they will follow your lead. Lol. They are not hard to get … at all. Say something like “Cool shorts! Where’d you get them from?” and laugh at their jokes, and they will be eating of your hand. Or maybe it’s just me, because recently I’ve gotten several interested in me (not on purpose!), by doing the above. Actually, that’s how I met my SO as well: threw a comment his way.<<

My daughter says that works in her generation as well as it works on mine. My daughter reports, though, that the "can you help me" stance works for all ethnic groups except young black men (Latinos, she says, won't even wait for a woman to ask for help). She has her theories about why young black men don't respond to a plea for help from a young woman, but her theory does not bode well for the future of African-American families or culture.

It also corresponds to one of Abagond's other posts in which he notes that women control the "meeting" relationship…that to some extent the numbers are a matter of who women send their signals to, even if the man initially seems oblivious.

But no, I can’t relate. I’ve never thought I was less acceptable than other women. I thought their might be a culture clash (or men might perceive that their would be one, so they would be more hesitant), but I

laromana says,
Natasha W.,
I didn’t mean that BW think we’re unacceptable but that MANY WM in America treat BW as if they’re unacceptable for serious dating and/or marriage and I don’t feel BW are to blame for this.

Also, I understand you’re in your “black male ally” phase right now, but no one is trying to bash black men.

No, its not a phase. I just saying what I feel. I didnt accuse any one of bashing black men.

And trust, if I were to say that white men were less misogynistic, more educated, and better looking (in my experience!), you’d better believe several commenters would not hesitate to put me in the “self-hating/white male worshipping” crew. Actually, I’m in that crew already (a few have insinuated such or outright said so), just by virtue of being with a white guy and daring to say anything less than “black people/men are the bestest!”

Yeah there would be commentators that accuse you of white male worship…and what doesn that have to do with me? I never inferred nor accused you of white-worship. I’ve made it known here and else where that having a white partner does not count as self-hate or white worship in my book. I dont know if you prefer white men as a group but if you do its whatever to me. I dont like to call people on their personal preferences or experiences…I dont feel like its my place really, so long as they leave me out of it and dont degrade me I’m not bothered. Like I said, its whatever…

I agree with your daughter. Black men most likely are the least to offer help at least that’s my experience. I’m not sure why that is. Maybe if he was not raised to be a man and was always coddled by by women in his life, he’s used to everyone doing things for him and feels he doesn’t owe anyone.

One doesn’t need to intend to bash Asian women but for very many of them, their bodies are indistinguishable from 12 year-old choir boys. Facially, many look like Black women (especially Philippina women) but that’s really as good as it gets.

Seriously, in terms of physique, slim white and Asian females are perfect fodder for the gay fashionista, and repressed homosexual white men in the general population. Lady boy, anyone?

sorry sam but i disagree. if you want to point the finger, point it at the fashion industry, not thin women. so cut all that “gay men in fashion only pick boyish women” crap because i’m not buying it. you may not like that image but don’t assume all thin women look like drug addicts. and don’t you think plastic surgery is not another issue? now we got girls cutting their body parts to look like a kim kardashian. that’s suppose to be the standard of beauty. there is nothing wrong with having curves and i’ve said it but i’m tired of people always being negative to make themselves feel better and wonder why girls of today are suffering. i can’t change the fashion industry and neither can you. if you don’t want your daughter to have issues with her body then you need to talk to her and let her know she is someone and doesn’t need to use parts of her body to be beautiful. stop depending on the media to show beauty because let’s keep it real, they won’t do it. and if they do it’s only for a short period of time and then go back to “thin is beautiful”. and thank you islandgirl for understanding me. i haven’t heard from you too but i had to say it. hell we need an organization for thin women instead of depending on society. they’re doing a bad job of that. lol. it’s time to start uplifting naturally thin women.

@lil’vina: you are right on the natural thing. And like I said: I have nothing against thin women or any kind of women. I have something against the “beauty industry” which comes up all these crazy notions how women should look every other week.

Yes, natural beauty is what I strongly support and actively push. Fortunately my own daughter is very healthy and smart kid and she is not too much into this bullsh. She does not even read womens/teenager magazines because “they are crap” in her own words. She reads books. And luckily her mother is a strong woman who, even though good looking, does not spend her days wondering what to wear or how to do a make up. So I feel hopeful there.

Plastic surgery is a monster we all should get rid of. It is one the biggest evils against women today. I saw a documentary from States were a 15 year old girl was goin uder tha knife because she thoughed that her downstaris looked ugly. And her mother was supporting her!! WTF? And the slimy doctor was telling that it is natural to go and chop off your labia. Zeesus a Kristoforos!! And one sleazy “doctor” said that it is only natural to “whiten” your a-hole, just like the porn actors do. I mean: whiten your butt hole? How crazy this can get!!

I mean who in their right mind go and take fake buttocks just because some dork on tv has a nice pair? I have little difficulties with fake boobs, but fake butt? In this documentary there were guys going for plastic surgery to get fake muscles too! Wha… ??? That was a jaw dropper for me. Fake muscles?? What the F happened to the gym? As an old weight lifter that was like real effing alien thing for me. But I guess in an enviroment obsessed about the looks everything goes. Even fake calves and butts.

So let me say again lil’vina: I have nothing against thin women, really. I just don’t like the image that is pushed by the industry. I don’t like what it is doing for young women and even for young guys around the world.

And I thin you and Islandgirl should start the Healthy Thin Womens movement and make it clear that being thin is natural condition too, not something that you get by starving one self or buy from some scumbag “doctor” who counts the dollars when he/she is explaining to one how she/he needs tuckin here and here, cutting here and here etc.

PS. So that everybody gets it here: these are my opinions and not universal truths, nor they are meant to be such. Thin women, I’m not after you. Like I’ve said before, I look like a love child of Hunchback of Notre Dame and orangutang, so I’m not pretending to any Calvin Kline here, or any other trend setter. I am critisizing the fashion/beauty industry which terrorizes women, and more frequently men too, just to make fortunes from the frustrations and insecurities of the people.

PPS. I do not want deny plastic surgery if there is a medical need for it. I am very much against so-called plastic surgery which want to cut up teenage girls who think their private parts are ugly or that must have kardashian butts. Or Pam Andersons monster tits.

i understand that people have their preferences but some take it too far. plus asian women can’t help how their shaped. i guess if all of them start getting surgery, people will be so quick to complain that women should love their bodies but turn around and say something negative. women can’t win when it comes to body image huh?

True, Asian women have no control of how they are genetically shaped. They don’t look boyish or manly to me at all. Now if someone were to say black women look mannish, many people would be upset. So why say that about another minority group – or anyone?

In my opinion, if are so caught up on thick women and put down other types of women, that’s b*@*%y. Only women put down other women. Also I think these men have repressed homosexual tendicies and are overcompensating.

Also, the thick look is starting to effect women in the opposite way as well. How many women in recent history have been injuried due to botched butt injections/implants/breast implants?

Either way women should be happy with what they have and men should let them.

you seem to be making stuff up, sweetie! Black men don’t need to put down other races of women to make them feel better: that’s what wonderful white men do via their mass media, remember?

Moreover, no one saying slim Black women look boyish because they simply do not! Jesus, lady, a Black physique is a Black physique whether on a slim sister or a phat one. Did you not know this?

lil’vina said:

Asian women can’t help how their shaped. i guess if all of them start getting surgery, people will be so quick to complain that women should love their bodies but turn around and say something negative. women can’t win when it comes to body image huh?

Menelik replies:

right. The issues you raise above are purely a female matter; men love the women they love and that’s it!

charles, some black men do put down women or you must be making that up just to blame the white man as usual? you may say it’s a physique but i know women who are thin and are made to feel bad about it. “just a physique” is easier said than done, especially when it comes to a woman. so sorry if i sound all whiny because i’m a woman. *sarcasm*. plus men play a role in this too so it’s not just a female matter. and islandgirl i agree if black women were called boys and called ugly, someone committed a crime. but with asian women it’s okay. i’ve seen asian women and they are women and happen to be beautiful. and the thick look is affecting women. look what happened to heidi montag. she was fine the way she was but i guess that’s what happens when people criticize others to boost their esteem or ego up. sam only respond once to me and you. guess he has nothing to say.

Menelik , some black men do put down women or you must be making that up just to blame the white man as usual?

Menelik replies:

then take up your complaints with those Black men or white men whose mass media tortures, distorts and torments women of ALL races…”as usual”.

Some women feel deeply inferior for whatever reason and so demand that men praise that which they do not find attractive. Do women desire certain kinds of men? Well, men desire the women they desire. What is wrong with that? And what’s wrong with saying that flat butts are typically a masculine trait?

first off charles you don’t have to find thin women attractive and i’ve said that plenty of times but damn why be disrespectful? and stop trying to blame the media when it’s not all the media in the first place. when you say flat butts are unattractive, don’t you think it would hurt some women’s feelings because they don’t have a big ass like the women you praised? and i don’t see women complaining about men’s weight or their body half the time because it’s not a big issue. or maybe i’m wrong but whatever. have preferences but when you make degrading comments about a woman’s body don’t get mad on how she feels. you think flat butts are masculine but if someone said the same thing about a black woman’s behind being masculine or grossed out, like i said it would be considered a crime. i can care less who you choose because like you said “my choice.”

What I should say? That I like all kind of women? I’ve said it already. That I don’t like how the media/fashion industry pushes its crap on women? That those images cause hell of a lot problems for girls and women?

I just happen to like more fuller women, that is all. I don’t hate thin women. I have had a relationship with very thin woman in the past. It was ok. No hard feelings.

Oppose the fashion industry is wrong because they do not change? What? On the same logic we should not oppose racism because they never change either, right? Of course we can and should and must oppose those false body images which are beign pushed to women and more recently to men. If nobody says nothing nor opposes them, then they can do what ever they want with their powers. And they do it to you too.

And about the homosexual beauty ideals behind the fashion images: I’ve heard it from my gay friends! I’ve heard from models who have worked in NYC, Milan and Paris. One of them said that everybody inside the business knows that. So, what is my problem? That I say it to you and you don’t like it?

I have no problems with gays or homosexuality. I have gay guys and lesbian friends all over the world. I happen to belong to that group of people who accept people as they are. I treat you nice if you treat me nice, regardless of your color, creed or sexual orientation, size or shape. I have worked my whole life among people who are not the average joes and jills, who have been “outcasts” for one reason or another. I have no problem with anything other than oppression and manipulation and abuse of the people. I don’t like that fashion industry, in order to sell clothes, sells a body image which for the most of the women is unrealistic.

I have another tip from inside the fashion business: you notice how size numbers seem to get smaller every now and then? Well, that is because they do. And this infromation comes from a woman who is an executive in a fairly large clothing company in Europe.

What they do is they announce to you that this years trend is “slim shirts, skirts, jeans and jackets”. That is bullshit. The reason slim is In is because if they can save one centimeter per each shirt in fabric, they’ll make even more money. So if the fabric costs for them some XX amount of dollars per one meter and they can save xx amount of cents for each spent meter, they make a lot of money when they use thousands of meters of that fabric. And on top of that, when they announce their new collections, they can rack up the prices for finished products. That is how the industry operates. And that is why ALL women should loose fat and get slimmer every year. It is really about the money.

And don’t blame me for this: this is straight from inside the industry.

And about the asian beauty ideals: just check what kind it is? Yep, their sex symbols are little school girls, innocent girls raped or abused, meak little sex slaves who do mans bidding even while crying. It was the chinese who thoughed that smashed little feet are sexy and beautiful. They have obsession about virgins too.

In India they have children in brothels because they think that little girls are the way to avoid aids. They like little girls. Same thing in South Africa where there are rumours that raping a virgin can be a cure for HIV. In Belgium they have had pedophile scandals year after year.

Where from all this shit is coming from? What is behind of all of this?

Pure, smooth, flawless skin. Little blush on cheeks, moist small mouths, those innocent looking eyes, that smooth skin on their tummies, those small cute perky brests, narrow hips, small tight buttocks, no scars from childbirths, almost hairless bodies…

What is that? Where it comes from? Who pushes that image to us day and night 24/7? This is the beauty ideal. Twelve year old woman. Young cute kid. Why? Is that ok?

Not for me. I’m sorry if that is offensive to you, but I want a woman, not a child. And just because I’m a heterosexual, I prefer women. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I’m from another age and generation, what ever, but I like grown up women. You know, the ones with pubic hair and hips and thighs. Women with whom I can talk about life and anything under the sun. A woman with whom I can live my life fully. If that is wrong, then, too bad. I’m just not into child brides and hairless gay boys. Sorry about that.

There’s nothing wrong about having preferences. Everybody has a preference or two, maybe more. Nothing wrong about that. You are attracted to a certain type of women. It’s ok.

However, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. What I’m saying is, there’s nothing- I repeat: NOTHING objective about that. Women who are shaped differently (thin, small breasts, small butts, etc) are equally feminine, healthy and beautiful. There’s nothing “unnatural” about being thin (if you are healthy), and there’s nothing ugly about Asian women (just like there’s nothing ugly about black or white women). Why do you think your preferences are absolute and objective?

I bet any woman here could find several reasons why black men, or white men, or any other type of men are least masculine, gay looking, unattractive, etc. and to claim there must be something “unnatural” and “lesbian” about liking men like that.

This type of thinking is disrespectful to say the least. Like who you like, but don’t think there’s something “objective”, “natural” and “normal” about your preferences, unlike other people’s preferences that don’t match yours.

Oh, and just for the record, I don’t think homosexuals (gays and lesbians), bisexuals, etc. are sick, unnatural, etc. But they might have a different taste in men/women that straight people don’t share. That is also ok.

Y, you were saying something completely different a week or so ago. So.. . this is a phase.

It doesn’t have to do with you per se, but realize that attributing only or mostly positive stereotypes to a group of people as a reason to prefer them to others, is worship. Look up worship in the dictionary, it has more than one meaning.

Thin women are fine. A thin woman is no less of a woman, especially not biologically, since most “curves” (in excess) don’t have any inherent biological value. Thick women are fine too. It’s just a different aesthetic. When will people realize that it’s not necessary to justify your preference by putting down what you don’t prefer (Y, take note). Like I strongly prefer tall men (around 6’0″ or taller), but I wouldn’t go on and on about how short men are less masculine or undesirable. There’s just no reason to; my preferences don’t have anything to do with them and they are perfectly okay for anyone who is interested in them.

“I bet any woman here could find several reasons why black men, or white men, or any other type of men are least masculine, gay looking, unattractive, etc. and to claim there must be something “unnatural” and “lesbian” about liking men like that.”

I was reading this blog by this white female; good blogger. Then she made a post about why she would probably never date a black male even though she’s not “racist”. Among the reasons were that black men have fuller lips, and full lips are a feminine trait. (The most interesting one was “I don’t like to be psychologically, emotionally, or physically tormented.” I was thinking: ‘Ummm… Lol?’)

i’m glad some people agree and see what i am trying to say. as for sam, like i said you can have preferences and you don’t have to like every woman of all sizes. when did i say that? but when certain people put down thin women, saying they’re little boys and not real women is offensive and you know it. so when you say shit like that, some will get offended and hurt by it. just because asian culture praises that little girl image does not mean all asian women are like that because i’ve seen some women who are asian are not like that or shaped like that. and last time i check women and i mean ALL WOMEN have vaginas. no woman was born with a penis so excuse me for sounding too graphic. you may not think it’s offensive because you’re not a woman, especially a thin woman and is not considerate of others feelings because they only way to put down a certain size is to make another feel good. sorry but that’s how i see it. if women were so quick to bash every brother that didn’t have that perfect body, teeth, etc on a daily basis, i wouldn’t be surprised if some men would get hurt by it. and once again blaming the industry is not going to change because if they want thin women then that’s who they want and i don’t know what gay friends you have but i’ve seen some straight male designers but i guess they’re gay because the women look like boys?

i don’t get why people have preferences but always look a way to put down others to make a point. and i don’t like it when some people, men and women, always brag about “this is show a real woman should look” and all that b.s because it’s just as bad as society saying if you’re not this size it’s not beautiful. and don’t get me started on this plastic surgery trend that’s happening but no one makes that a big issue when it should be. what’s the real reason so many young girls are getting these butt/boobs implants? is it because they want to feel good, self confidence or is it deeper than that? maybe because the girls who were criticize for not looking like a woman probably got those implants. i can’t assume that but i wouldn’t be surprised. the point is if you want thick women fine. thin women, fine but putting down another is wrong and i don’t care what others have to say. it’s wrong period.

“What that woman wrote was racist and general WTF. However, it’s wasn’t crazier or weirder than whole “X women are not feminine…. they look like boys” meme.”

The funny thing is that men don’t realize that. They think that their ideals are somehow better or more sensical, when it’s just a preference like any other. Sure, lots of men have been conditioned to prefer thinner women, but there are plenty that naturally prefer these types and there is nothing weird or gay about it.

“PS-Don’t forget that black men don’t have flatt butts- which means they’re feminine. White men, on the other hand, have flat butts, which is ugly.

😀

See, it’s easy, isn’t it?”

Huh? Are you say neither are masculine, or are you saying that black men are preferable (because their butts make them more “feminine”?)

Frankly, there are so many more important things to note on a guy besides his butt. Like his height. Obviously the most important. 😉

Huh? Are you say neither are masculine, or are you saying that black men are preferable (because their butts make them more “feminine”?)

Not sure. Both? Black men can’t be masculine if they have female butts and not enough body hair. And white men are hairy, but it’s just gross and ugly, and flat butts don’t help them look attractive. So no, it’s impossible to win this game 😉

Frankly, there are so many more important things to note on a guy besides his butt. Like his height. Obviously the most important. 😉

Cosign Natasha W, I’m all for loving who you want but black men Do NOT prioritize black women(the decent ones) the same way non-black men prioritize their decent women. All things being equal an Asia, Latin, or White man will pick a co-ethnic before they pick an outsider for dating(this obviously dower include men that prefer women outside of there race). However a black man will proably be undecided or pick a non-black. It’s not automatic for black men to pick. Lack women like it is for other groups of men to pick their own. It’s as if black men are more eager to date out than other men. I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s a bad thing but it definitey worth noting. The same can be seen wrt to video girl selections. One of the only outlets blacks have to validate black female beauty and desirability is in hip hop videos yet these rappers parade/serenade whites and non-black Latinas I’m even starting to see Asian women. There is nothing wrong with putting non-black and mixed women in videos but the blatant exclusion of black women is brow-raising. Those in the business claim these majority/ambiguous women help to market to broader demographics Which is a CEO k if you ask me. I have never, ever seen a mainstream non-black artist serenade a black/ambiguous woman in a video or on stage. You can bet your bottom dollar that white/Hispanic/Asian musicians make women of their race the ceterpoints of affection in music videos. With blacks you can bet your life the woman will be non-black or heavily mixed.

I admit this does sound contradictory…I will explain latter…Im late for class

@mira et all. I have never ever stated that my opinion is objective truth, on the contrary: I have said repeatedly that it is my opinion based on what I happen to know and what I’ve been told about the fashion industry and its methods and means to sell more products.

All my words are subjective opinions, that is all. I don’t even believe that there is a single soul in this planet who can give objective, neutral opinions on anything. Opinions are always subjective, regardless what one might think or believe.

And once again, I have nothing against thin or slim women. I have a beef with the fashion industry and the media who keep on pushing their images of women as something natural and universal, which they are not. Be it kardashian butts or heroin chic.

What I would like to see is women who are happy and proud of who they are, thick or thin that is. I’ve met a very nice woman who was 183 cm tall and weighed 62 kg. Yes, she was a model. But I have also met a very nice woman who was 170cm and 95kg. She was not a model. Reason why they were both attractive and nice was their personality, the whole baggage. It was not their looks nor it was their lips, butts, breasts or any other part of their body.

And like I said before, with my looks I am much more in the league of monsters and goblins so I am not trying to give any advices or demands for women how they should look. I was just saying my opinion, what I think about women in general and what I think about the idea of universal beauty standards. They do not exist.

And like I said before, the best woman I ever met was a black woman. Sadly she saw me in daylight and ran away, actually wanted to be “just a friend” (which I could totally understand given my looks). She could have been green or purple or turquoise for all I care, but she happened to be a very black woman.

So Menlik Charles, you seem to be such an advocate for dark skinned, African featured women. And these women often complain about not being seen attractive or how men insult or disregard them. So are they acting inferior and making men (who don’t necessarily like that look) demand that men praise them? If you’re going to have a certain way of thinking, you have to apply it to ALL situations and not just ones that are close to your heart. For the record, I don’t feel inferior to thick women! Go ahead and praise them all you want. I just want this thin women bashing to end. It doesn’t prove your masculinity and makes you look like a b—– because a man putting down a woman’s looks is sissified.

Sam,

Another white guy showing his love (*ahem* overcompensating) for black women by saying he loves thick black women (which is fine) and not recognizing that all black women do not fit this sterotype. Men like that are getting dangerously close to fetishizing.

You wrote this novel about homosexuals, the fashion industry and how boyish and unfeminine Asian and Indian women look, but did not address the issue at hand, which is why do you feel the need to on one hand praise a group of women why putting down an even larger group?

All this fashion industry non-sense means nothing to me because unlike you, I’ve had FIRST hand experience with the fashion industry and am strongly against the demonization of it. I’ve also had FIRST hand experience with the Hip Hop world who praise thick women. If the fashion industry promotes (according to you) “unfeminine, boyish looking” thin women then the hip hop industry seriously exploits, sexualizes (to the point of treating them inhumane) and disrespects thick women. Even in the streets, men do this.

So which is better for girls and women? A fantasy industry who showcases their clothes on thin women OR the thriving hip hop community and real life men on the street who treat thick women inhumane?

That “real women” crap is always bullshit. Real women have rolls, and back fat, and cellulite, and I don’t see anyone praising that. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: most men prefer (per their actions) thinner women. Sometimes it’s thin women with a booty, sometimes it’s thin women with slightly rounded hips (note: I should add that the average American woman is a size 14, but most men my age who talk about “bigger” women are talking about a size 8, max), but “bigger”, no. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but I think it’s silly that so many men who claim to prefer bigger women generally end up with thin ones. If I were an average-sized woman (like I said, that’s what “bigger” is to 20-somethings), I’d be pissed, frankly. it’s kind of like White men who go on and on about “loving” Black women but never end up with one–it’s cool to trumpet a “PC” cause, but who would ever go so far as to actually date a Black/”big” woman? /sarcasm

I know you said it was just your opinion. And it’s not like I disagree with you about fashion industry and companies: too much is too much, indeed (remember my comment about magazines and the way they want all women to feel miserable about themselves in order to buy?)

Still, you described thin women (especially Asian women) as if there’s something unnatural about them. News flash: just because you don’t find them attractive, doesn’t mean they are not feminine and that every single man that likes them is brainwashed by gay fashion industry.

Saying “I prefer curvy women; those who have large breasts and round hips” (or whatever you like) would be enough, really. You don’t have to add “X women look like prepubescent girls or skinny boys and it’s not feminine”. It’s not about being polite or PC. You simply don’t need to think anything bad about women that don’t fit your preference. After all, people would have preference FOR something, not AGAINST something else. Just because I don’t think Brad Pitt is hot doesn’t mean he is “really” ugly or not masculine, or that women who find him hot are brainwashed.

PS-Like I stated several times, situation in my culture is insane when it comes to preference for thin women. It wasn’t easy growing up with those preferences around (and yes, I struggled with self-hate and the idea there must be something wrong with my sense of logic, because I honestly didn’t understand what is so special about thin women, and thin women only). But now I see how ridiculous and childish the opposite preference (for curvy) women can be.

Please note I don’t have anything against thin women or fashion industry or magazines per se. What I don’t like it’s the way they often want to make all of us miserable and ready to buy in order to become “better”.

I agree with you! It’s perfectly fine to state your preference for something , “I think Mario Lopez is hot because he has dark hair, in shape, ect.” without insulting others, “But Brad Pitt looks so feminine because of his blonde hair and slimmer physique”. Why not just stop at Mario?

And I am strongly against putting down an entire race of women, who by the way are genetically programmed to be a certain way, to prove a point.

Mira,

I don’t agree with anyone pushing any type of beauty and making others who do not fit feel badly about themselves. Whether it’s thin or thick women. And I hope that your culture changes to appreciate the beauty in all shapes and sizes because beauty is an individual thing.

Really? That is considered fat here, although even size 8 is considered “fuller”. (Which doesn’t mean women are generally that skinny- the standards are narrow).

I checked US sizes and it appears I am size 4 (waist and bust) AND 12 (hips). It was always difficult for me to find clothes- but my friends who were in America said it’s not that difficult to find clothes for these “mismatching” sizes.

Excellent point, Jasmin! Real women have muffin tops and arms that jiggle and back fat. They don’t praise that because, yeah while you can be thick, you have to be a certain type of thick, which still sets and impossibly high standard btw. A woman has to have nice perky c or d cups, a thin and swelvte waist (perfect .06 or below) and a big, toned,perky behind (void of any cellulite or sagginess). Everything must be in perfect proportion.

“If you’re going to have a certain way of thinking, you have to apply it to ALL situations and not just ones that are close to your heart.”

Yes.

—-

Jasmin,

ITA with your whole comment. Well said.

—-

Mira,

“Not sure. Both? Black men can’t be masculine if they have female butts and not enough body hair. And white men are hairy, but it’s just gross and ugly, and flat butts don’t help them look attractive. So no, it’s impossible to win this game ;)”

Lol!

Hairy legs on men can be kind of sexy. Looks good in shorts and thongs (sandals). 🙂

True. Why not just stop at Mario, or Kenya Moore, or that hot co-worker (or whoever you like)?

It’s not that I am super-moral here or anything. Like I said, it’s not about being polite or PC. I have my preferences like anybody else, I just don’t try to explain them with my hormones, evolutionary imperatives or objective masculinity of the men I find attractive. In fact, I believe preferences are- like most of the things anyway- more about the way we were raised than our DNA.

(Being attracted to one particular person and not the other, regardless of preferences, might be in part biological, though).

For example, there are no blonde people in my family, and my mother has a strong preference for dark haired men. And she is not shy to talk about it. I grew up listening to that. My father had jet black hair. Of course I developed preference for dark haired men! (And it wasn’t in a fair way).

So like lack of preference for people of a certain race is often about racism and not attraction, I do think most of the preferences are shaped by culture. In this sense, I do agree with Sam that media promotion of thin women can shape men preferences, but I don’t think there’s something unnatural or wrong about liking thin women.

PS- While many (most) Asian women are thin, with small hips, there are those who have fuller figures. Just like not all black women have huge butts. And there’s nothing wrong with any of that.

I think I’ve commented along these lines before in another thread, but I’ve noticed that human preferences are pretty transient for many people.

I know people who were into the biggest, heaviest, SUV’s possible—the bigger the better! Today they’re driving and loving a hybrid. I’ve known people to think they would DIE if they couldn’t eat Southern style cooking, but after a heart attack and a few years, they truly prefer the subtler and more natural TASTE of the Mediterranean diet.

People love what they know, what their friends like, what’s popular, and what’s available around them. But, it can be a short trip from preference to change. It happens often enough that people try something new and actually prefer it to the things they’ve favored all of their lives.

Obviously, not everybody is going to love everything, but it happens enough to suspect that there is beauty and appeal to more things than we often immediately appreciate.

I don’t appreciate a Picasso in the same way that I appreciate a Renoir or a Warhol or a Dali. But I appreciate them all, based on their own kind of aesthetic appeal. I enjoy them each for totally different reasons, yet, that is not a contradiction.

I think, the same is true of enjoying women (or men, for that matter). Thin women appeal to a certain aesthetic, thick women appeal to another. There are different kinds of beauty, and different ways to enjoy it. There is no need to try and play one against the other as if they cannot coexist side by side. It’s entirely possible for a guy to date both types, and enjoy them equally, for different reasons.

In your pictures you always look pretty slender to me, but I’ve never seen you full-length. Size 12 in the hips? You go girl! 🙂

I wouldn’t be surprised if you came hear and your measurements were even smaller though. I bought my last swimsuit from H&M, and I had to get an 8 in the top and a 12 in the bottom. I’m not sure what size I am (I still shop in the juniors section since I’m short), but I’m guessing a 2/4, depending on the season. European sizes are no joke!

“I saw a documentary from States were a 15 year old girl was goin uder tha knife because she thoughed that her downstaris looked ugly. And her mother was supporting her!! WTF? And the slimy doctor was telling that it is natural to go and chop off your labia. Zeesus a Kristoforos!! And one sleazy “doctor” said that it is only natural to “whiten” your a-hole, just like the porn actors do. I mean: whiten your butt hole? How crazy this can get!!”

That would have been a red light to me as a parent that my daughter was planning a future career in porn. Why on Earth would a 15 year old kid need to have her labia OR butthole look a certain way?

just got word from my man, Rocky, over at Black Men Confronting The Lies & Distortions. This is what he understands by the study on inter-racial dating we’ve been discussing above:

“hey Bro Menelik. The study is of the percentage of marriages that occurred in the single year of 2008 that were inter-racial. That % is generally at least double the percentage of married people who are currently married IR. For example, around 4% of married black women are currently married IR, yet in the single year of 2008, 9% of black women who got married that year married someone of another race. Similarly, about 10% of currently married black men are married IR while 22% of those who married in 2008 married non-black women”.

Menelik says:

so I guess around 10% of of ALL currently married Black men are married inter-racially. It’s great to get a straight answer to a straight question lol

@ islandgirl: Where did I said that prostitution gloryfying image of women in Hip Hop is better than the one pushed by the fashion industry? Nowhere. But your question which one is better is like asking is it better to be in jail or in prison. I think the real question should be why women advocate any of this bullsh? Why they want to go along that? I do not know.

Why women in fashion industry go along with the fantasy (like you call it) instead of putting their feet down and demand a change? Why women in Hip Hop don’t tell the guys put the lid on their pimp fantasies (well, some have done it)?

I admit that I have not worked in fashion in any way. I just told what my friends in that field have told me about the situation in European fashion industry. Maybe it is different over there. Maybe you celebrate warts and wrinkles of real women? Maybe you do not photoshop pictures in womens magazines over there? I don’t know. But I know that Cindy Crawford once told about the mole on her face, how it travels around, changes shape and sometimes dissappears all togheter from her pictures.

But maybe american fashion industry celebrates real women who have brestfed three babies and have not those perky boobs? Maybe, just maybe american womens magazines show women who have body hair? Do they?? No.

Ahhh, then the fetish weapon again :-D! This is getting little old. If you read what I wrote, all of it, I specificly said that I really do not care that much what color you are. I did not say that I like ONLY black thick women. I said that I like thick women more than slimmer ones. But I also said that I have had relationship with very thin woman (this included adult intimacy which worked just fine even though she was not thick but thin). And if you, although I understand that you got little worked up and missed it, read my text carefully, I said that I like ALL women.

If we have a conversation, that is if we intent to exchanges ideas and points of view, then we speak out. My intention is not to put down anyone, like I also said. I’ve said again and again this but somehow you miss my point again and again. We have different ideas and opinions. I am not trying to put anybody down. I’m just saying what I think. I’m trying to have conversation. If we all agree, there is no conversation and to demand that we all agree is more familiar in different kinds of societies than ours. Iran, North Korea and such. There they demand that everybody agrees. I will not.

And where the hell I said that women, thick or not, have to be without cellulite, fat, or anything else? Nowhere. That image is in your own head, which is not surprising since you have worked in the fashion industry. You BELIEVE that I demand flawless woman somehow because that is your belief. Not mine. ALL my women have had cellulite, thick and thin! They all have had pimples, scars, natural breasts, not so firm butts, fat thighs etc. So do not put words in my mouth or your own ideas in my head. I happen to love real women, not the fantasies of fashion dictators.

My ex-wife had the same problem as you. When I told her that she had never looked more beautiful than after giving birth to our daughter, she got mad. Not because what I thoughed, but because she believed, just like you, that I do not see her as she was, that I don’t somehow see women as they are. That is total crap and some weird old feminist claim that has no base in reality.

The assumption that men do not see women as they are is a flase one. We do see women just as they are and despite of their warts and wrinkles and pimps and hairs, love them. You guys just do not believe that. And why is that? Could it be that those womens magazines feed you this sh*t about what men want? How the ef they know it? All those magazines are managed by women. All those stories are written by women. You are telling these fairytales to yourselves what we want and how we like you, and you belive it!

Look at the women men are married to! Are they movie stars? Are they flawless? No. They are all kinds of women. They have crooked teeth, smelly breaths, pubic hair, hairy arm pits, not so fashionable clothes and certainly not any of that glitz and glamour that those magazines that you women make and read claim men are after. Why is that if men are after only those false images, thick or thin? Could it be that this whole idea of men demanding somekind of set looks from women is one of your own fantasies?

Ask Jasmin. She is with a white guy, I recon. Does her man deman her look like a groupie from rap video? Does he demand her to look like a fashion model? No. He loves her for what she is! That is all.

I wonder when you women realise that this is all we want from women: just be yourself! That is all. Everything else is in your own head, all these beauty standards, fashions and styles and what have you. And yes, womens magazines and the fashion industry, push these for you. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to say to you, because that is the way it is.

you make some great points; most of which will either be ignored or distorted by anyone who chooses to comment on what you’ve said.

That’s a promise!

Most here would rather engage you in trench warfare than a friendly disagreement. We are men; we love Black women. Who’d have thought that would be a problem but it is simply because we prefer particular types of sisters.

I strongly advise that you drop the matter now unless whoever is prepared to soften her tone towards you and deal with what you actually say and not what is in their head.

To be honest, a guy is the best when he is what he is. Even if he’s not considered “conventionally attractive”, even if he has excessive body hair, receding hairline and beer belly. These things may not sound adorable, but are numerous times better than any “fake-ness” (no other way to call it) many “hot” guys often have. If I learned something (often the hard way), is that it’s best if a guy doesn’t think he’s super-handsome (regardless of how he looks) and/or if he thinks he’s happy to be with you (and not the other way around). A good woman would never use that against him, though.

In your pictures you always look pretty slender to me, but I’ve never seen you full-length. Size 12 in the hips? You go girl! 🙂

To be honest, I don’t have much full-length pictures. It’s not that I’ve been avoiding them (but who knows). In any case, I know many women who (like me) are different sizes in the top and bottom.

Sam,

Your last comment was nice indeed. So I don’t understand why you needed to spill all those rubbish about “unfeminine looks” of thin women.

It is true that women are often woman’s worst enemies. There’s a lot of competition, jealousy and bad stuff going on. Unlike most of the other animals (where males fight for females and try to be pretty for them), women fight for men, sometimes openly violent, sometimes using passive-aggressive approach. That is not a good thing.

So yes, magazines are written by women and they often make women miserable. However, it’s not like it’s something completely made up, something just in girls’ minds. It’s not like men don’t care how you look, or that they prefer you the way you are- if you don’t look conventionally pretty, or if you don’t know how to carry yourself, or if you don’t behave feminine enough. And yes, sometimes not waxing your legs regularly can become an issue, though not as much as women imagine it would be.

Still, men do notice thing and no, men in general don’t like women as they are, take it or leave it. Well, a lot of men say they do, but they always seem to lust after the most generic “hot” girl. A lot of men say they hate excessive makeup, but in reality, it’s better to have more makeup than not to have it at all. Etc, etc.

And I agree with Jasmin- most men prefer thinner women, even those who like curves (it’s possible to be thin and have curves, btw). Just ask any woman of a fuller figure whether men fight over her regularly. They don’t.

“Look at the women men are married to! Are they movie stars? Are they flawless? No. They are all kinds of women. “

Well, yes. Unfortunately for them, they couldn’t get the woman of their dreams (or their wife’s appearance changed after marriage). That doesn’t mean they don’t dream all the time about other women and it definitely doesn’t mean they love the way their wife looks.

“Why is that if men are after only those false images, thick or thin? Could it be that this whole idea of men demanding somekind of set looks from women is one of your own fantasies?”

No.

Just take a look around this blog.

“Ask Jasmin. She is with a white guy, I recon. Does her man deman her look like a groupie from rap video? Does he demand her to look like a fashion model? No. He loves her for what she is! That is all.”

I am with a white guy too, and yes, he does demand that I look a certain way. Perhaps demand is a strong word, but if I suddenly gained 30 lbs. or shaved my head bald, he would be more than a little annoyed. And he would let his disapproval be known in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Luckily, I already meet his “standards” by just being me, which is why he was interested in the first place. At this point we’ve been together too long so he wouldn’t just leave if my looks were to change. But his feelings might change a bit.

It’s easy to say “You women! So insecure/competitive/etc.” It’s not so easy to examine how your own words and actions, as a man, might contribute to women feeling the way they do. It’s not a secret: societal image focus and objectification cause all people, women AND men to become more insecure with the way they are. And it’s also not a secret that a woman’s appearance matters more than a man’s does, to the world at large. Indeed, one could say that a woman’s worth is inextricably tied to her appearance.

Women do not generally think they have to be perfect to be loved or wanted. But every time a guy drools over some woman and ignores them, or makes a comment that suggests that someone or something on a woman is better than the other, that deeply affects the way a woman feels about herself. And despite how much men protest they “love you just the way you are,” women note what you do: if your actions suggest you dislike or like something about them, or have a preference for something or other.

Really, this is not hard to understand… Unless you’re not in that position.

… if I suddenly gained 30 lbs. or shaved my head bald, he would be more than a little annoyed. And he would let his disapproval be known in subtle and not-so-subtle ways…

Funny you mention that. We blokes are not all the same of course but from what I’ve experienced, a lot of men are insecure when it comes to showing themselves in public with a woman. And that can go either way, too fat, too eccentric or even too attractive – believe it or not I’ve met men who avoided to take their girlfriend out after a while because she was always chatted up by other blokes. I’ve always wondered if it is really men’s personal disapproval when their wife / girlfriend make drastic changes in their look or if it’s rather the fear of what others might think when they are seen together…

sam if you really feel that way why say all those things about thin women and just saying i love thick black women? that wasn’t so hard but i guess some won’t understand what it is like to be a woman. islandgirl and jasmin, i agree 100%. just because a woman may be thin or thick she can also have strech marks, cellulite, dimples, belly fat, etc. guys want their women to look good and have that body they desired. it’s easy for men to say that won’t have a problem with women’s flaws but will some of them ever date or like a woman with rolls on their stomach? i doubt. and i agree with islandgirl, hip hop may praised thick women but also degrade them and are looked at as being sexual objects to society. so it’s no different from what the fashion industry does to thin women. and the men i see tend to go for thin women that has a shape, not boyish looking like some will say. you say women’s magazines push the beauty standards, well so do men’s magazines. who do you see on the cover of a men magazines? most of the time women with curves and men love to brag about what kind of woman like that or what a woman should look like. both sexes play a role in this too.

i don’t know what goes on in the fashion industry but i can tell you i don’t blame them for why young girls are insecure with themselves. i think as a people we’ve let the media brainwashed us into what is beautiful and yes men and women are guilty of it so you can’t sit here and say it’s not true. but when we have our standard of beauty, we turn around and do the same thing, except praise thick women and put down thin women. no wonder surgery is on the rise. my point is, and i’ve said this many times, you can have your preference because i have one too but why bashed one body type to uplift another? is that suppose to make a world a better place? i don’t expect every man to find thin women attractive but at least give us some respect and see we are women and not boys. even thin women can have a curvy body so you don’t always have to be thick built to achieve it. and i also agree with natasha. you may like the woman you’re with but if you’re staring at another woman who maybe prettier or has a nice body, then she will feel insecure. i say practice what you preach.

Just ask any woman of a fuller figure whether men fight over her regularly. They don’t.

Word, that’s why I find the words of men like Abagond (sorry!) hollow at best, because their actions don’t reflect their words. Put a size 2-6 next to a size 14-18 and see what happens. The majority of the men who wanted “bigger” women on paper will probably go for the first category, which is below average. I think that’s what men don’t seem to realize–given that a 14 is “average” in the US, to prefer bigger women means you want a size 16 or higher. So most men are way off in their “preferences”.

Here’s a picture I found of a size 16 woman, but this is a UK competition so this is probably still smaller than a US 16:

Femi,

if it’s rather the fear of what others might think when they are seen together…

I think that’s part of it. Both men and women want someone others will “covet” so to speak, especially people around my age. I know very few women my age who would date a guy none of her friends labelled attractive; in fact I know some who determine their crushes based solely on whom other girls do find attractive!

I am with a white guy too, and yes, he does demand that I look a certain way. Perhaps demand is a strong word, but if I suddenly gained 30 lbs. or shaved my head bald, he would be more than a little annoyed.

It seems to be a general assumption that people don’t want their partners to significantly change from what they looked like when they first met, given that they were satisfied with that person’s appearance in the first place. Obviously people gain weight when they get older and such, but few people are satisfied with drastic changes. It may not be a dealbreaker, as Natasha said, depending on the length of the relationship, but it seems like the physical attraction is contigent on how you looked when you first met. After all, if my boyfriend wanted a girl who looked like me 20 lbs heavier, that’s who he would’ve gone after, right?

And where did I say that YOU said that prostitution gloryfying image in hip hop is better than the fashion industry. My point is that you and men like you forever talk about “the fashion industry” and use it as a scapegoat. And you project your feelings on the “fashion industry” onto thin women, not just thin models, but thin women as a whole. But you fail, or don’t want to realize that is there is another industry who is just as bad, if not worse that objectifies women – the hip hop industry. Lil’vina made an excellent point about mens magazines objectifying thick women. But of coarse, you don’t hear men complain about that because that’s what they’re into.

The fashion industry is what it is. The hip hop industry is what it is. But you cannot demonize one without the other.

The whole point is not about the fashion industry or the hip hop world – but the question that is still posed to you and other men like you. WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PUT DOWN THIN WOMEN TO APPRECIATE THICK WOMEN? Everyone seems to skirt this question.

The fetish comment is not a weapon – it’s true. A lot of white men on this site first state that they like black women followed by they love thick women. They don’t go hand in hand. Black women come in all shapes and sizes. And to be honest, men who think like this and this topic is getting old.

If you’re intent was not to put anyone down, why did you comment about thin women, Asian and Indian women being unfeminine. Do you realize that that is the most insulting thing you could say to a woman? Just look at how upset everyone got when Abagond posted the pic of this women and someone thought that she was transexual. But when you say that an entire portion of the world’s population (who also are the healthiest on Earth, btw) are boyish, it’s fine. Double standard, heh?

So, yeah, you say that your intent was not to put anyone down, but I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to know that calling a certain group of women boyish is the ultimate put down.

“And where the hell I said that women, thick or not, have to be without cellulite, fat, or anything else?”

Now your getting too worked up to realize that I didn’t address you in that comment. I responded to a comment from Jasmin. I was actually thinking about other men and all of the posts Abagond has about wth ratio, ect.

Regarding Jasmin, she has stated that she is thin. Yes, I’m sure that he doesn’t expect her to be a hip hop groupie or a tall fashion model. But I’m also sure that he doesn’t put her down to uplift another type of woman. Nor should he put thick women down to uplift her because she is thin. That is the point here. The point that all of these ladies have been trying to express over and over. A point that is never addressed.

So I’ll ask once again – Why do you put down a certain group of women to uplift another?

You guys brought up the subject of how many black men are married to black women as opposed to non-black women again. From my understanding, 22% of black men ARE NOT married interracially. Only 14 % of all married black men are married to non-black women. Close to 22% of black men married interracially in the YEAR 2008 ONLY. So it is not 22% total. Only 14 %. But Jasmin made a good point. The RECENT statistics gives you an indication of how black men are marrying currently.

So in all, and correct me if I am wrong, about 35% of ALL (I guess they mean adult) black men are married to black women ( considering that only 40 percent are married) while 5 % of all black men are married interracially.

Natasha–>>And it’s also not a secret that a woman’s appearance matters more than a man’s does, to the world at large. Indeed, one could say that a woman’s worth is inextricably tied to her appearance. <>Just ask any woman of a fuller figure whether men fight over her regularly. They don’t.<<

This thread has, of course, been about women in general and black women in particular, but let's not get the idea that men don't also feel a standard to be met to be attractive to women. There is a Jewish proverb: A man with money in his pocket is better looking than one without. My wife may feel less lovely because she's gained weight over the last 25 years and compares herself to the young svelte things on television, but I definitely feel a pang when I see much younger men having achieved wealth that I hoped to achieve when I was their age…and have failed.

My wife may not be a "trophy wife"…but I'm painfully aware that I not a man who could afford a trophy wife.

Jeri–>>So in all, and correct me if I am wrong, about 35% of ALL (I guess they mean adult) black men are married to black women ( considering that only 40 percent are married) while 5 % of all black men are married interracially.<<

I dunno. I question the original statistics. I don't know who they counted as "black"–male or female.

I'd certainly like to see it broken out by age. I could almost believe that 20% of married young black males aged 18-30 are married interracially (although it would be a very small percentage of them who were married). I'm damned sure that statistic is NOT true of black males aged 40 and older…and a larger percentage of those would be married.

The more worrying statistic is the overall low rate of marriage of young black males along with the alarmingly high rate of black unwed mothers and black unwed women in general.

I combine this with my daughter's anecdotal information about young black males not having learned the "gallantry reflex" that other young males (and older black males) have…and I worry.

And if you don’t believe me, just read BOTH articles that Natasha posted. In the first article, it states that 22% of black men married non-black women and 9 % of black women married non black men in the year 2008 only. But in the year 2008, only 13% of ALL married black men were married interracially while 6 % percent of ALL married black women married interracially. But understand the SECOND article states that the figures came from a SURVEY that included 3 million households plus previous censuses. Now understand, the 2010 census figures hasn’t come out yet. At least I don’t think it did. So some of the current figures in the second article may have come from the survey as opposed to a nationwide, government backed census or statistics. So it may not reflect the nationwide total.

I agree that younger black men may marry interracially more so than the older black men. I am not sure what the percentages are but I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers were between 15% to 20% for married black men 30 and under. And I am talking about those married interracially.

And understand that the first article makes it clear that the 13% ( black men married interracially ) figure is concerning married black men( not all black men) while the second article says 14 % of black men, not clearly stating married. But I am assuming the 14% figure in the second article means married black men since the figure is so close to the 13% figure in the first article. I hope you guys understand what I mean.

thank you islandgirl. that’s all i’ve been trying to say but obviously some men doesn’t seem to get it, no matter how many times you break it down and explain it. i’ve asked that question and some men want to beat it around the bush instead of telling the real reason. we don’t care if you like thin women. we never said you had to like us but why is it that when thick women are praised, you criticized women who doesn’t have that hourglass shape and then want to complain about the women who had a problem with it? it seems you fail to see how that hurts a woman’s confidence, especially if she’s naturally thin. then people want to make excuses and always blame fashion industry when, like i said before, we played a role in this too. if you see a woman that’s thin, thick or full figured, you may judged them simply by their body. some may like thick women because they’re seen as feminine, womanly, curvy. whereas you see thin women, it’s the completely opposite. it could go the other way around.

hell i’ve told abagond that he can date or marry thick women. if that’s who you are attracted to then do it but when you uplift one thing but degrade another, it’s no different from what the media does. and you know it but choose not to see it because women are thin and put on pedestals, which is not the point. you hate the fashion industry but instead of getting mad at them you get mad at thin women and bash them as if they created it. the media chose that standard, not us so don’t get mad for how thin women are praised when the media and some people believed that is the standard of beauty. once again, it’s just another double standard that no one wants to realize and understand how bashing thin women is an issue. and like islandgirl said, if you’re going to go off the fashion industry, the same should be for hip hop videos degrading thick black women as hoes and bi**hes. black women do come in all shapes and sizes so what are you telling black women who don’t look like a video vixen? that they’re not black enough, not beautiful? i mean can anyone tell me that? just like not all white women are size 0s or getting surgery to look more ethnic. you think white women may have the features that black men like on them?

but if we can’t get the real answer then i guess no one really cares and thin women are supposed to continue getting criticize everyday because we don’t have a big butt!

And if 20% of married black men, 30 and under, are married interracially, that is a high number. I don’t blame alot of black women when they say that they should start dating interracially themselves. I just don’t think they should exclude black men, holding on to a belief that non-black men appreciate them a whole lot more! I still say that black men marry black women way more than other groups. I am not saying don’t date interracially. I AM saying that men should be looked as individuals. I don’t see how that can be a problem. I think it would be foolish to marry anybody based on their outer appearance alone. I understand we all have preferences. I am just saying look deeper.

@ islandgirl: I guess because I’ve seen too many girls and women break down for this Thin is In craze. I just hate to see people forced into something they can not be and weather you like it or not, it is much, much more common to see magazines, tv-shows, talk shows, articles, pictures, films etc. that glorify thinnes vs. thickness or natural beauty. So that is why I get so worked up.

You ever knew anybody who killed herself just because she felt fat, even though she was normal in all ways? I have. You know anybody who has had a bulimia for twenty years because her whole life has been a fight against that damned body fat? I do. I know women in their 40’s who have problems with their weak glass bones just because they had their last periods in their teens. Why? Because they wanted to look “good”, thin that is. Have you seen six years old girls dieting because their mothers and some asshole doctors wish that these little girls would be slimmer? I have. Talkin about conditioning… I think this is not healthy nor it is good for anyone.

If you are naturally thin, okay. I got no problem with that. Like I said, I had a realtionship with a very thin woman and her body was not the issue at all. It was her personality. I liked her, thick or thin, but she happened to be thin. Very thin. Actually she was so thin that she did not even have breasts in the common sense. So when you tell me what I think and do, don’t let your own preconceptions get into way.

And yes, I have had relationship with a woman who was fat. She had those rolls on her belly. Her nickname was Elephant. And yes, we did go out. Yes, I did kiss her in public. I held her hand too in public. I did not try to hide her. I introduced her to my friends. Why not? I was going out with her, wasn’t I?

Ok, I might have been too harsh with my words, but to claim that thin women are somehow downtrodded or disdained by men or media is whole lotta crap. I wonder if you are thin why you are so insecure? You are much closer to the ideal than average woman. You should feel great about yourself! Instead you feel insulted and somehow defensive when I say that I prefer fuller women. Why is that?

And just to remind you all, ladies, we men really do not understand what you think or why. Keep that in mind. So I really do not understand what is so dangerous to say out loud that most of the women in this planet do not fit into that ideal that fashion industry, media, Hollywood and television pushes out. I think we all should be fighting against that instead of going for that same old song: it is mens fault! It is not.

You women support the whole fashion and cosmetics industry. You take aerobic lessons and zumba your nights away. Why? Because you want to look natural? No fekkin way! You want to be thinner. You want to loose that body fat that is normal! You yourself. Nobody is there to force you sweat, nobody is standing there with a whip in HIS hand, there is no man in your bathroom measuring your fats or fat rolls or what ever. You do it to yourself.

If you are natural thin woman, I think you should be out there on the barricades fighting for womens right to be who they are, thick OR thin. You should be the one saying: it is ok to look fatter or thicker or thinner or anykind you are, it is ok to be who you are. Instead you keep repeating that somehow this is our fault, mens fault that you feel insecure in your own body. That is very weird.

Ok, I understand that men are easily lead by the media that this or that star is the ideal beauty. But I let you in on a secret: if you ask from a man who is beautiful woman, he names somebody he has recently seen. Not because he really thinks that way but that starlett is the only thing that pops into his mind at that moment. If you talk with a man in privacy what kind of woman is a good woman, he tells you something else. That is because he has time to think.

If you want to see real men, as god or nature (or whatever you believe in) made them, and hear what they think, check out a finnish documetary Miesten vuoro. It has had some troubles in States because it has a whole lot male nudity. It takes place in public saunas (real saunas, not the sex industry saunas) and these are real finnish guys. They surely do not look pretty or anything close to the guys in advertisements. Why? Because thats what they look like! For real.

The director said in an interview that the one of the main questions in the States has been how these guys ever let somebody to film them nude? Was it difficult to get these guys in to the film? The director also told that in the USA people have walking out from screening because of the nudity. They have been offended by the sight of ugly, sweaty all natural men in total nakedness. If they had been hairless fit male models it would have been a different story all together.

That should make you think, islandgirl. The male image is also so distorted in american media that when people see normal guys in the nude, they get mad. They get offended! They think it is wrong to show that kind of nudity. Why? Because some Man wants to put them down? Because somewhere in some highrise building there are Men planning all this? No. It is the fashion industry who is doing this. It is the media, mainly the one run by women. Show me it is not. Name one fashion magazine which is made by all male staff, all straight male staff.

Ok, porn industry has been succesful in past few years in its move towards the mainstream and has influenced some, but I think anybody with an inch of brains does not think that stuff is real or natural or something you should try to be. If someone does, he/she should get her brains examined. Britney Spears comes to mind and I think she did already.

Some men in certain cultures, especially the younger ones, seem to be under peer pressure when it comes to physical preferences in women. To the point that they repress or deny themselves what really floats their boat. It can go as far as that they get involved with the exact opposite type of what they’re really attracted to. It seems almost like escaping the possibility of having to explain themselves. The weird thing is that quite a few people preserve this kind of immaturity, where personal taste is expected to be presented with a justification, up to a mature age. Again, especially younger people up to 30 are a bit too preoccupied with what’s the general flavour of the day.

I’ve noticed that the apparent (socially presented) men’s taste in women can change with age but the fundamental triggers really remain more or less the same since early adulthood – if all men are really honest to themselves. I think the percentages of men who like large vs slim, light vs dark skinned etc are fairly much evenly distributed throughout mankind. What’s not so evenly distributed is the willingness to admit and pursue their true preferences and/or the diversity and opportunities in their environment. It can go to the extreme in some, predominantly monolithic, cultures that exactly what’s rare in their culture can become an obsession. That’s where the media jump in once again, exotify and market the crap out of it.

This is anecdotal evidence again but I suppose it’s not a one off. My cousin goes on occasional business trips to Krakow/Poland. Walking through the city, you will probably remember any black person, especially women, you’ve seen a week before. That’s how rare they are. Last year he took his daughter with him who’s in her early twenties. She’s 3/4 Cameroonian and 1/4 white French. She looks fairly average central African. Rather slim but with curves. She went to check out the nightlife there and hooked up with a group of Polish students. I don’t know if women tend to exaggerate on that end but she said men were all over her. Some told her she looks like Tyra Banks, some came up with Rihanna and even Beyoncé. Trust me, she doesn’t look like any of them. Talking about the power of the media, and even more so when your real environment doesn’t allow for a reality check…

I’ve noticed that the apparent (socially presented) men’s taste in women can change with age but the fundamental triggers really remain more or less the same since early adulthood – if all men are really honest to themselves. I think the percentages of men who like large vs slim, light vs dark skinned etc are fairly much evenly distributed throughout mankind. What’s not so evenly distributed is the willingness to admit and pursue their true preferences and/or the diversity and opportunities in their environment.

I worked with the numbers people here gave me: 40% of black men are married, and out of these, 22% are in interracial marriages.

If it’s 14% instead of 22%, it means that out of 40 married black men out of 100, 34 are married to black women, and 6 to non-black.

And yes, there are other questions to be asked about this:

1) What is considered a man here? Did they count adults only, or all black males, even kids? (In other words, is 40% percentage of ALL married black males, or just adults? I mean, you can’t expect a 10 year old boy to be married, so he shouldn’t matter here).

2) What is considered black? (For both men and women). This is a very important question and should not be taken for granted.

My wife may not be a “trophy wife”…but I’m painfully aware that I not a man who could afford a trophy wife.

I understand what you’re saying. Many women do have strict standards when it comes to this. Not all of them are gold diggers, but many want a man who can provide for them.

Personally, I never fully understood that sort of thinking. Maybe because I was raised in a culture where being poor was not seen as a sign of a moral failure, and in a culture where it was normal and expectable for a woman to work. So while I understand the wish to have a responsible man at your side, I don’t understand the need to have a rich one. I can work and provide for my family just like any man, and I don’t need anybody to do that for me.

Plus, it’s not like there’s anything wrong in being poor! What I need is an emotional support from a man, and I (like all the people) want to be loved. Money has nothing to do with it. (Now, I’m not saying rich people can’t love or women who don’t work are good for nothing, but money is not a particularly important thing about a man, imo).

So yes, I understand many women expect a man to provide for them, but I believe (hope?) that it’s because they want to see a man is responsible and mature- and not because they expect a rich guy and successful guy per se.

As for thick vs thin, fashion industry vs hip hop: ladies, you can’t deny the fact that fashion industry helps all thin women. Even if they are not models or in the fashion industry, media promotes them as the beauty ideal. It’s a privilege like any other- if you have it, you take it for granted, and don’t think what is like for those who are considered ugly, every single day of their lives, every way they go, every time they have to face men, other women, or even when they go to buy clothes.

Now, the opposite thing (thick women worshipping) doesn’t happen in my culture, but I can see there is one in America, especially with those who are into black women. Hip hop might be that media trigger which creates a privilege for black women who are shaped like video vixens. That is also a bad thing.

Like I already said, it’s not really about being thin or thick- it’s about stupid male idea that what they like is somehow objective and absolute. And yes, yes, guys, I understand all of you stated it was just your personal opinion, but calling any group of females “unfeminine”, or “unhealthy” (be it because they are too thin or too fat for your taste) is not real. It’s just in your mind, guys. Nothing wrong with having preferences, but the women you are not attracted to are not really unfeminine, boyish, grossly fat or whatever.*

*Of course, there are anorexia and obesity. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We are talking about women of healthy weight, who just happen to be shaped in the way you personally don’t find attractive. I repeat: healthy, feminine women of normal weight who just happen to be shaped in a way you don’t like or have a couple of kg/pounds less/more than you see desirable.

THAT is the main problem. And while many of your latest messages (especially sam’s) sound sane and insightful, I can’t help noticing many of guys here take their preferences as “normal” and “natural” and not completely random and subjective, like preferences in fact are.

I do know girls who did a lot of bad things wanting to be thin. Like I said, it’s crazy in my country. Size 36 (US 6) is the fattest acceptable. If you are more than that, you are considered chubby (sizes 38-40, US 8-10), overweight (42-44, US sizes 12-14), and everything else is obese. And most of those “fat” women are of healthy weight- I think only sizes 46(16)+ are medically overweight (and not even obese!)

So it’s not like I don’t know what “thin is in” standards can do. But I guess it’s not difficult to imagine the opposite situation.

Also, you must take race into account here. White men and black men might have different ideas about what is considered hot. Of course, every man has his own preferences, but don’t be surprised if thin black ladies are considered unattractive by many black males, just like thick white ladies are considered unattractive by many white males. None of them might or might not care about what men of their race (or men in general) think, but they can’t escape the prevalent attitude around them that shapes their everyday experience. It’s one of the basic rules of sexism.

As for nudity, I am an European, so I don’t see anything bad about it (and there’s nothing wrong about naked men, imo. :D) Like I said, most men do not look like those hot guy models you see in ads. And it’s ok. You are who you are. There are plenty of women who don’t expect you to be shaped like Brad Pitt or whoever is hot at the moment. Sure, there are many who do think it’s better if you are shaped like him, but being attractive was never a male imperative. Being an ugly man is not fun, but it’s not the same as being an ugly woman. Another rule of sexism.

Femi,

Some men in certain cultures, especially the younger ones, seem to be under peer pressure when it comes to physical preferences in women.

This is true. Preferences are subjective and as long as a woman is healthy, she will fit some guys’ preferences, not matter how she looks like. However, peer pressure can be extremely strong and many men fall for that. So a guy who is into overweight women, or the one who likes women with “interesting” noses (as a friend of mine put it), or a guy who is into women taller than him, or a guy who is into a woman that is not considered “feminine” by his friends, is forced to hide his preferences in order not to “embarrass” himself and present himself as a pervert. (Oh, and not to mention that liking women of a race different than yours can bring you this label in no time, too).

On the other hand, I don’t think women (especially younger ones) are different. Many of those who like short men, chubby men, etc. have to hide their preferences, as well as those who are into men who are not considered manly in any way. Same often goes about being attracted to men of races different than your own (being labelled a slut is just one problem you might face).

You’re butchering the numbers. It’s 14 percent married to white women. Total. Not in 2008; that was only for the first article. And not interracial total, just to white women. Please read the article(s). In case anyone is fuzzy on where those numbers come from, they are from the early Census results and analyzed by Pew Research.

RDKirk,

Yes, that’s certainly true. I don’t think anyone would deny that men feel the need to be financially successful.

Femi,

“Funny you mention that. We blokes are not all the same of course but from what I’ve experienced, a lot of men are insecure when it comes to showing themselves in public with a woman…I’ve always wondered if it is really men’s personal disapproval when their wife / girlfriend make drastic changes in their look or if it’s rather the fear of what others might think when they are seen together.”

It’s both. They both aren’t especially fond of these changes and they fear the disapproval of others.

“Some men in certain cultures, especially the younger ones, seem to be under peer pressure when it comes to physical preferences in women. To the point that they repress or deny themselves what really floats their boat. It can go as far as that they get involved with the exact opposite type of what they’re really attracted to…Again, especially younger people up to 30 are a bit too preoccupied with what’s the general flavour of the day.”

You’re presenting the “general flavor of the day” and a guy’s personal preferences as dichotomous, when in fact, they are not. Not only does social pressure influence what a guy thinks is acceptable to like, but it influences what he does like. And I doubt people notice it, because most social pressures are particularly insidious and begin at a very young age. So, no, I don’t think that they are just “hiding” what they truly like, but what they truly like is influenced by their social milieu.

Actually, it’s both (both is nurture, but there are, I believe, two mechanisms). The first one shapes their preferences through media and general social consensus on what is considered a hot woman. It starts when a boy is still a child and it shapes his preferences while he’s growing up. It doesn’t magically appear on his 16th birthday. So his culture teaches him about his preferences, what to like and what not. And contrary to the popular belief, there is little of it that is natural. Preferences are easy to change.

Not that long time ago, for example, pubic hair was considered to be one of the most attractive female features- women are generally hairless, so to have hair on that particular spot was really sexually arousing for men Today, it is considered ugly, sign of bad hygiene and what not (even if it’s not a sign of bad hygiene but quite the opposite!)

(and this is just a small and stupid example, but I used it because unlike body shape, that is something that can easily be changed to match current trends, even with medical consequences).

But it’s not just it. Some men DO have their own preferences that don’t match popular views. Those men are forced to hide them and to be embarrassed of them, as if there’s something crazy and unnatural to, say, like women with huge butts (like it is in my culture). It is interesting to note that men who publicly declare their preferences even if they don’t match current cultural standards are those who generally don’t care about what others think. These men are often not popular among people of their age, and they don’t try to be popular. They just don’t care what others think, be it his friends or family.

Maybe they didn’t watch enough TV to catch current beauty standards, maybe they didn’t have many friends while growing up, maybe their mothers were shaped differently than current standards (and let’s not pretend it doesn’t play a certain role). Anything is possible. But in any case, there are those who do have different preferences. Some of them hide it, while others don’t care. But one thing is certain: if you don’t share common preferences, you better not care about others think!

So I do think it’s a combination of culture shaping their preferences and being forced to hide your preferences if they don’t match everybody else’s.

I do agree that nurture wins over nature in most cases, however I’m not so sure if that’s always easily applicable to male sexuality – to put it mildly. I think all of us humans have what we call in French “phantasmes” from an early childhood on. It’s too subtle of a term that I think it can’t be simply translated to “phantasies”. It’s a combination of phantasies and certain triggers in reality which are fundamentally inexplicable. As Mira said, some men like women with “interesting” noses or who are bow legged or other features that are not exactly promoted in the media or seen as a sign of beauty by the majority.

A less extreme extreme example is dating a woman of different ethnicity. In some cultures those men are considered mavericks although the fundamental desire to do so might be fairly evenly distributed.

To be a bit more graphic, there are countless cases where white men who are dating or are married to a blond, pale, slim, blue-eyed “babe” were caught with an African mistress or prostitute with huge curves. However embarassed they might have been at that moment, most would do it again. Would they marry them? Most likely not at a young age but perhaps when they’re much older.

Obviously, some part of sexuality (both male and female, let’s not forget about female!) is biological. That should be obvious. However, like I already mentioned, it’s really difficult, if not impossible, to tell which part of anything related to humans is guided by nature and which is cultural. What I’m saying is, there is no part of humans that is 100% natural (not even basic biological needs- even these are to the point, culturally constructed).

So by all means, sexuality is natural, but who knows in what way? Humans might be bisexual in nature, but is there a way to know for sure? (If nothing else, we do know homosexuality and bisexuality exists with animals, and that many of them are not strictly any way or the other).

In this sense, I am not sure if we could tell what kind of women would men find attractive if there wasn’t culture. Saying “all of them” is a simple answer that I don’t think is accurate: even animals have preferences. Also, there’s the whole pheromones story- maybe we are able to tell who is genetically/biologically good for us (in terms of making babies with them). But I don’t think we are able to tell which part of our preferences is natural and which is cultural.

Also, dating people of other races is not a different example, not at all. I do believe there are similar mechanisms at work (to be seen as strange for liking short men as well as liking black men- if you are a white or Asian girl).*

*And no, it doesn’t mean I believe being short is the same as being black. But I do believe the mechanisms of social stigma are always similar, be it serious or not. Similarly, sexism and racism are not the same thing, but they do share some mechanisms.

Please read the articles! It DOES NOT say that the 13 % is marrried to white women only but to non-black woman. And I said that the 13% represents the number of married black men that are in interracial marriages TOTAL, NOT JUST those who married in 2O008. The percentage of black men who married in 2008 to non-black women was 22%. But the percentage of married black men that was married interracially ( non black women) was 13% DURING the 2008. This is out of the total of all married black men, not just those who married in that particular year. Read the first article again. All this is in the first article.

@ mira: I might be one of those oddballs you mentioned :-D. I have never cared much about what others think about me or my life, nor I do even know, when I’m pushing fifty. Maybe it is something in my upbringing, I have no clue.

I remember when guys of my age started to drink, I had no wanting for that what so ever. I still don’t. Alcohol tastes bad. And Mira might know that in Finland drinking is something almost everyone does the hard way, men and women included. My friends started to drink, to get drunk that is, at the age of ten, twelve, and that was not unusual. It still no unusual to see finnish executive lady fall on her face at company christmas parties etc. It just happens, though not so often these days than say ten years ago.

Same thing has always been with girls/women. I just happen to like somebody and that’s it. Only after the fact somebody might tell me that my girl is fat or looks strange or something, but I never cared. Of course my friends teased me about my weird girlfriends, but I did not pay much attention in that. I don’t know why. It just was the way it was.

When I became older and traveled around in other countries, like in States, I lived pretty much the same way. If I met an interesting woman I did not think about what ethnic group she belonged in or what the people might be thinking. I must admit that dating an indian woman in London was much much easier than dating a jewish woman in NYC. Not to mention black women. In Africa that was no problem, maybe they saw me as just one meal ticket down there, I don’t know, but only in States the race was serious obstacle which could not be crossed.

I remember getting looks from both black and whites when ever I was in discussion with a black woman. The black male friends I had in USA said to me that it will never work out, that I have no chance. Maybe they were polite and did not want to tell me that it was because of my terryfying caveman estethics (one actually told me that I looked just like a russian hooligan even though he had never seen one 😀 even though I was a finn), but the reason they gave was the whole race issue. I, of course, did not want to believe that but in hindsight that was it.

And reading this blog it has become more and more clear to me how difficult the “race” issue still is in USA. Both sides have their thoughts about it and hold on some ideas which keep them apart. Mostly it is the white population which keeps the rasicm alive without even knowin it. It is so in woven in american psyche. It is very difficult to see it from inside.

But then again, many blacks have their own hiccups which keep up the system. For what ever reason, some of them up hold still the same codes which were used way back for segregation. You know, something “is not done because… You can’t go there because… You can’t say that because…”

Well, I think you can do anything you want, if you want, regardless of your color. That is why I ended up in Harlem one day back in the 80’s. Luckily for me one of the local guys was kind enough to steer the whitey for much more safer pastures in town 😀

That is one of the great things about this blog: abagond brings out stuff which is so easy to ignore, forget or just deny. Things might be painful or horrible, but the only way out of the rasicm is trough the facts. The only way Germany could move on after WW2 was the acknolewgement of the holocaust and other atrocities which the nazis commited AFTER germans had voted them on two consecutive elections.

I certainly hope that one day americans could and would be just americans instead of blacks and whites and browns and one quarter browns and one third whites and one fifth blacks and what ever. Maybe we are getting there, slowly, but it takes time. Lets hope for it. All these discussions are part of that too.

But I am going to say it again. If 22% of black men who got married in the year 2008 married non-black women( not just white women), then that number is still high for that year. It gives us an indication of how black men are marrying currently, not those who married years ago. It especially tells us how the younger black men ( 30 and under ) are marrying. It is likely that 1/5 married black men who are 30 and under are married interracially. This is just a guess based on what happened in the year 2008. Black men over 30 are probably way more likely to be married to black women, considering that only 7% of black men were married interracially in the year 2000. ( I believe it was 7%. It could have been 8%).

“It DOES NOT say that the 13 % is marrried to white women only but to non-black woman. And I said that the 13% represents the number of married black men that are in interracial marriages TOTAL, NOT JUST those who married in 2O008.”

Yes it does. You didn’t read the sentence correctly; it was worded awkwardly, so I can understand your confusion. Here:

“About 8 percent of U.S. marriages are mixed-race, up from 7 percent in 2000…In contrast, blacks are now three times as likely to marry whites than in 1980. About 14.4 percent of black men and 6.5 percent of black women are currently in such mixed marriages”

In any case, it is evident that black men are more ready to marry inter racially today so this trend will continue. (I think it’s no different for black women, but the percentage is lower than for black men).

I was speaking of the one based on the preliminary Census data. I posted the wrong article first, that’s why I posted the second. I don’t know what the first article based its numbers on, but I’d use the second since those are gov’t numbers.

I read the second article but it is saying something different from the first article. The first article mentions non black spouses while the second article mentions those blacks married to whites. I personally think the second article made a mistake. I don’t believe it meant to say those blacks who are married to whites only but blacks who are married to non-blacks, which is different.

“In this sense, I am not sure if we could tell what kind of women would men find attractive if there wasn’t culture…I don’t think we are able to tell which part of our preferences is natural and which is cultural.”

I agree with this. Not only culture in the sense of media or outside social environment, but upbringing, family, etc. Those all affect a person’s preferences. You used a good example when you said your mother would go on and on about liking dark-haired men, so you subsequently formed a preference for dark hair. Those things happen all the time, even if not so blatantly. From infancy you’re forming preferences based on your surroundings.

You are right about the survey. I read it and it is government backed statistics. The American Community Survey is a survey done by the federal government. But I will say it again. The first and second article are saying two different things. I believe the first article is more specific, talking about non black spouses, not just white spouses. But I may be wrong.

I don’t blame alot of black women when they say that they should start dating interracially themselves. I just don’t think they should exclude black men, holding on to a belief that non-black men appreciate them a whole lot more! I still say that black men marry black women way more than other groups. I am not saying don’t date interracially. I AM saying that men should be looked as individuals.

This has been my point all along. Currently, I DO NOT think black men(as a group) appreciate black beauty as much as other races of men appreciate their female counterparts beauty. However, to say non-black men as a group appreciate black beauty more than black men is simply not true. We’ve been dissecting this issue ad nauseum on this blog.

As far as black men dating out…Im over it. Whether its self-hate, white-worship or what shaming and calling black men out will not change anything. It might make these men think twice or feel guilt but they will still pursue the women they feel are “better” People will do what they want to do.

Even if given a choice, Black men will most often choose Black women of varying types over and above women of all other races. Even if they’re equal opportunities daters, Black men always have one eye on that ‘one’ Black women: trust me!

A Black woman with the “full package” not like women described in this astonishing YouTube video:

but Black women possessing a light, breezy, femininity, would wipe out opposition from ALL races of women. I have seen this with friends and family (e.g. Bros, uncles) who dated inter-racially all of my life, and who finally ended up with beautiful, feminine Black women of darker hue.

@ Y, I think you and sister Terry over at Obsidian’s place are the two sweetest sisters I’ve encountered on the ‘net. Feel what you wish about the subject of inter-racial dating: you will always be in demand…and not merely for your looks, young sister lol

It says “For all blacks who are currently married, about 9% are married to someone of a different race or ethnicity. Again, the share of blacks with a non-black spouse is higher for men than for women. One-in-eight (12.5%) married black men have a non-black spouse, compared with 5.5% of married black women”
This is for the year 2008. This is the total. Not just newlyweds.

As far as black men dating out…Im over it. Whether its self-hate, white-worship or what shaming and calling black men out will not change anything. It might make these men think twice or feel guilt but they will still pursue the women they feel are “better” People will do what they want to do.

I also agree that people should be looked at on individual basis for any kind of relationship.

Also on the subject of Black men dating out, I, too, am over it. Whatever the reason, men will do whatever they want to do and, because we live in a generally patriarchal society, they’re going to get away with it. So calling them on it is useless.

If they want to think about women as if they are strolling the meat market, looking for a specific brand–nothing I can say is going to change their mind about dating out or objectifying women.

Decades of social conditioning and breaking have brought them to this point. Its normative behavior. *throws up hands*

I noticed that marriage statistics are big deal in this conversation. Recurring theme.

Is everybody deciding their opinions and thoughts based on marriage statistics between races? Because not everybody gets married, you know.

Its one of the problems I have with with the last paragraph in Abagond’s post about “Black women are strong” and the little musing about this attitude being why they don’t get married.

I’m willing to bet that most interracial relationships take place outside of marriage. Reflecting on the Nita Hanson, I wonder: Are there any statistics for that (interracial relationships, not interracial marriage)?

Another interesting fact that was in the report is that out of the 280,000 interracial marriages that occured in the year 2008, about 11 percent occured between black and whites. So I did some calculations. The whole number of marriages between black and whites in the year 2008 was about 31,000. Close to 22, 0000 marriages occured between black men and white women and 9,0000 between black women and white men.

Sorry I made a mistake. I will repeat what I said. Close to 22,000 marriages occured between black men and white women and 9,000 ( not 9,0000) between black women and white men. The total close to 31,000.

People get married for all kinds of reasons. Marriage doesn’t say anything about what people’s relationships are like.

I can’t stop thinking about the Nita Hanson situation and what those numbers don’t say about her marriage and who knows how many other interracial marriages. I guess I don’t want to get too caught up in numbers and data and statistics. Because what do these kinds of numbers really say about people’s lives? All these numbers mean is that they’re getting married.

No, I’ve never known a woman whose had aneroxia or bullimia. But I do know someone very well (me) who used to gorge with unhealthy fast foods and junk to gain weight because I was teased so much by women AND men for being thin. I’ve also known a bi-racial woman who despite doctor and family disapproval, took or considered taking dangerous female hormones to gain weight because she was teased. Those are things that I know for sure. So don’t even try to convince me that ONLY thicker women are affected by social pressures.

Who in the heck said that I am insecure about being slim? I used to be but now I realize, unapologetically so, that I like being thin – take it or leave it. So don’t even try to pull that “insecure” card with me! What gets me upset is, I’ll say this again, when men feel that in order to appreciate thick women they MUST degrade and insult thin women! That’s all. My question which I will also repeat again because no one seems to want to answer this – Why degrade thin women to uplift thick? I didn’t think that this was such a difficult question to answer. But obviously, you and men like you cannot answer this because you know that it’s wrong and no different than the “fashion industry” disregarding thick. You won’t answer this because you realize that it is unnecessary, immature and catty. Is that why men won’t address this question? Just man up and be honest.

“If you are natural thin woman, I think you should be out there on the barricades fighting for womens right to be who they are, thick OR thin.”

What do you think all of the women who commented on this blog are doing?!

“Name one fashion magazine which is made by all male staff, all straight male staff.”

No I cannot, but I will show you men’s magazines that degrade thick women with women’s butt’s in the air. I will show you a male dominated hip hop industry who swipes credit cards down women’s behind cracks. And I will show you little girls, little black girls, who watch these videos and feel that that is the only way to feel attractive!

If you are natural thin woman, I think you should be out there on the barricades fighting for womens right to be who they are, thick OR thin. You should be the one saying: it is ok to look fatter or thicker or thinner or anykind you are, it is ok to be who you are. Instead you keep repeating that somehow this is our fault, mens fault that you feel insecure in your own body. That is very weird.

Ok, I understand that men are easily lead by the media that this or that star is the ideal beauty. But I let you in on a secret: if you ask from a man who is beautiful woman, he names somebody he has recently seen. Not because he really thinks that way but that starlett is the only thing that pops into his mind at that moment. If you talk with a man in privacy what kind of woman is a good woman, he tells you something else. That is because he has time to think.

If you want to see real men, as god or nature (or whatever you believe in) made them, and hear what they think, check out a finnish documetary Miesten vuoro. It has had some troubles in States because it has a whole lot male nudity. It takes place in public saunas (real saunas, not the sex industry saunas) and these are real finnish guys. They surely do not look pretty or anything close to the guys in advertisements. Why? Because thats what they look like! For real.

The director said in an interview that the one of the main questions in the States has been how these guys ever let somebody to film them nude? Was it difficult to get these guys in to the film? The director also told that in the USA people have walking out from screening because of the nudity. They have been offended by the sight of ugly, sweaty all natural men in total nakedness. If they had been hairless fit male models it would have been a different story all together.

That should make you think, islandgirl. The male image is also so distorted in american media that when people see normal guys in the nude, they get mad. They get offended! They think it is wrong to show that kind of nudity. Why? Because some Man wants to put them down? Because somewhere in some highrise building there are Men planning all this? No. It is the fashion industry who is doing this. It is the media, mainly the one run by women. Show me it is not. Name one fashion magazine which is made by all male staff, all straight male staff.

Ok, porn industry has been succesful in past few years in its move towards the mainstream and has influenced some, but I think anybody with an inch of brains does not think that stuff is real or natural or something you should try to be. If someone does, he/she should get her brains examined. Britney Spears comes to mind and I think she did already.

No, I’ve never known a woman whose had aneroxia or bullimia. But I do know someone very well (me) who used to gorge with unhealthy fast foods and junk to gain weight because I was teased so much by women AND men for being thin. I’ve also known a bi-racial woman who despite doctor and family disapproval, took or considered taking dangerous female hormones to gain weight because she was teased. Those are things that I know for sure. So don’t even try to convince me that ONLY thicker women are affected by social pressures.

Who in the heck said that I am insecure about being slim? I used to be but now I realize, unapologetically so, that I like being thin – take it or leave it. So don’t even try to pull that “insecure” card with me! What gets me upset is, I’ll say this again, when men feel that in order to appreciate thick women they MUST degrade and insult thin women! That’s all. My question which I will also repeat again because no one seems to want to answer this – Why degrade thin women to uplift thick? I didn’t think that this was such a difficult question to answer. But obviously, you and men like you cannot answer this because you know that it’s wrong and no different than the “fashion industry” disregarding thick. You won’t answer this because you realize that it is unnecessary, immature and catty. Is that why men won’t address this question? Just man up and be honest.

“If you are natural thin woman, I think you should be out there on the barricades fighting for womens right to be who they are, thick OR thin.”

What do you think all of the women who commented on this blog are doing?!

“Name one fashion magazine which is made by all male staff, all straight male staff.”

No I cannot, but I will show you men’s magazines that degrade thick women with women’s butt’s in the air. I will show you a male dominated hip hop industry who swipes credit cards down women’s behind cracks. And I will show you little girls, little black girls, who watch these videos and feel that that is the only way to feel attractive!

@islandgirl: I just did answer in the first sentence but I guess you missed it like so much else in my response.

I have never ever said that the image of women in hip hop videos is better than heroin chic. I never will say that. But I will never say either that it is great to be over 180cm tall while being under 60kg bodyweight, which is what fashion industry says.

Its nice of you are ok being thin. I’m sorry that your friends have gone nuts because they believed that they have to be SOMETHING ELSE THAN THEMSELVES. And that, my dear opponent, is what the media, fashion or hip hop, makes them to believe. Not me nor any other guy who likes fuller women.

The real issue here is why black women feel that they are not ok as they are. And on that note: why the hell all of you women feel like that? Because what I say? WTF?

I’ve been called names all my life. I’ve been the fat kid, the fat guy, ball head, the lard ass in the army etcetcetc. I’ve had million situations where my looks has been downgraded, called this and that. I’ve heard dozens of women say that I’m too short, I’m too animal, I’m too fat, I’m this and that. You think I care? I don’t. It is not my problem. It never was. Never has been. Never will be. I have no problem with myself. Somebody else does and I don’t give a fuck about it. That is my attitude.

And guess what? I’ve had women all my life. When all those movies, specially womens magazines, tv-shows, books and what ever have always told that a guy like me will never have a woman, I always have had. For some reason I had girlfriends all trough the school. I had women when I was studying. I has three women at the same time when I was in the army! Me, the fat guy! You know, the orangutang!

And now, when I have hair and beard and belly, I still have women. How the hell that happens? Why it is possible when all the women go after that hairless californian millionaire guy whose teeth are shining more than mid day sun? How the hell I had a very nice romance with a very attractive much younger lady last summer if all that bull in the womens magazines is true, or what you ladies say here is true?

Because I have no problems with myself. See, I could be like you and be bitter and yes, insecure, and get aggressive everytime when some woman says that she doesn’t like men who are under 6ft tall and have more body hair than st.bernhard.

I could be offended by the statements of women in this post because “they put down the fat guy”! Bu hu huuu. You see me doing it? No, because I am not offended at all. It is what they like. It is their opinion. I’m okay with it. But you get all offended when couple guys here say that they don’t like slim women, that they prefer thicker women. Why is that? What is the problem?

The problem is that many women are not ok with themselves because the media and fashion industry has gotten them. That is the truth. Put the blame on me or any other man, but the truth is in your magazines, tv-shows, fashion business etc. Ok, lets add the rap videos too. But they are just part of the media anyway.

I asked the girl last summer why she was with me when she could have any guy on planet and guess what she said? She could be herself with me, she did not have to pretend to be anything else than what she was. She was at peace. You get it? She felt good about herself. With me?

What the hell is happening to this world?? How that could be? It is against everything that is written in Cosmo! Darn…

Oh, so noow I see what is going on. You are overweight and feel the need to defend women like you. That explains it.

And you must have difficulty comprehending my stance on this. For the umteenth time, my opposition is not when or if a man says he prefers, loves or praises thick women. For the millionth time, it’s when MEN DEGRADE THIN WOMEN in the process. Please study that line so that you’ll finally get it. I have nooo problem when men do that, sorry to disappoint you.

But you don’t want to get that because you have an agenda in this. A person who TRULY cares about women’s issues, consider ALL women’s issues, not just the one’s that they relate to.

And no my friends haven’t “gone nuts” like you so rudely referred. No more nuts than your friends who’ve had issues with being overweight. I see that little slight.;)

You called me bitter and insecure. If believing that makes you feel better about you and women you like to defend – that’s fine. I know that I’m not. No more bitter than thick women or advocates of thick women who take offense or object people who degrade them. See if they voice their complaints, that’s ok, but thin women like lil’vina or me or any other who’ve had issues with people, they are insecure and bitter. Nice try. Like I’ve said, our only complaint is when you put US down for the sake of others. Who wants to be degraded? No one! And that is my issue.

But people like you will never open your mind to realize that everyone (thick or thin) has had issues regarding that. You are too busy pushing your agenda.

I don’t think Sam’s intention was to make thin women feel bad. I think he was just trying to make heavier women feel better about themselves. Yes, it did sound like he was putting thin women down, but I don’t think he was trying to be degrading. He says he is heavy, so maybe he understands how heavier women feel. I do agree that people should just state what their preferences are and leave it at that. I just think Sam can relate to what it feels like to be different.

@Sam
I agree with you about the media and how they push thinness down our throughts. It can cause alot of stress for women who aren’t a size 1. I am a size 14 and trust me, it is not easy being thick. I used to be a size 5 when I was in my early twenties but time has past and I am no longer a spring chicken anymore. I respect and admire your determination to love yourself, no matter what people say.

@Islandgirl
Don’t feel bad about being thin. Girl, do you know that most women wish they can be thin. It is not a big deal. Some men like them thick, some thin. It has nothing to do with how we should feel about ourselves. I am fortunate. My husband loves me for me. He met me when I was a size 5. I have gained about 50 pounds since then yet he still loves me no matter what. So there are men who love all kinds of women. And no matter what, I love myself. Period.

Am I the only person here who doesn’t think sam likes thick women because he’s overweight? I mean, I don’t know about his personal issues, but it rarely works like that. Many overweight people prefer their partners to be thin; in fact, it’s often the case (just like many nerds are not into tomboy girls but conventionally hot women, sometimes even those who look like porn stars- and I’m not making this up!)

However, I disagree with Sam about comparing men and women. It’s just not the same. It’s like saying “why do blacks feel offended about stupid jokes and stereotypes… I don’t get offended when blacks say white men can’t dance. It’s not a big deal!”

The thing is: it’s not the same. Being an ugly guy is not the same thing as being an ugly girl. So while I don’t think it’s impossible for Sam to understand what is like (since he’s not a woman), I don’t think things are as simple as he presented them.

Mira –>BTW, what is a gallantry reflex?<I understand what you’re saying. Many women do have strict standards when it comes to this. Not all of them are gold diggers, but many want a man who can provide for them.<<

In the US the ideal that ideally a wife would work only if she wants to (and would be at liberty to do only the work she wants to do) is still pretty strong. It's not the wife working, it's the necessity of the wife having to work that a traditional male feels anxiety over even if his wife never mentions it.

Menelik Charles–>but Black women possessing a light, breezy, femininity, would wipe out opposition from ALL races of women. I have seen this with friends and family (e.g. Bros, uncles) who dated inter-racially all of my life, and who finally ended up with beautiful, feminine Black women of darker hue.<<

You're saying that if black women acted like white women, they would get more black men. It's pretty tough, given our history and the current economic situation, for black women in the US to have a light and breezy femininity. Maybe for Net Generation black girls who were raised in the 'burbs. Maybe.

You don’t have to live in the suburbs to be feminine. People have said all my life that I am very feminine, patient, and intelligent, but I was not raised in the burbs but in a major city. I think I get my personality from my mother. She is exactly the type of women Menelike Charles described. She is beautiful, dark, and very feminine. She is also highly educated. And she was also raised in the city. So the stereotypical black “sapphire” women with “attitude” who acts like a man, is just that: a stereotype.

Mira–>The thing is: it’s not the same. Being an ugly guy is not the same thing as being an ugly girl. <<

My daughter reports that in the Net Generation, it's getting close to being equal in that regard. I read an article just today that on several surveys of US employment agencies and corporate employment offices, over 60% of people making hiring decisions say that being "good looking" is more likely to get you a job. The surveys also reported that over 60% of managers admitted to being more willing to promote people who were "good looking."

Ms. Queenly–>Decades of social conditioning and breaking have brought them to this point. Its normative behavior. *throws up hands*<<

I was talking to my barber–a young black man of 31–about this today. Because I was in "intelligence collection" mode, my aim was to draw out his thoughts, not to debate them. His position as a young black man was eloquent but defensive: It's the fault of black women. They are attracted to the thugs, not to the nice guys.

Now, the fact is that the attraction of the "bad boy" to young girls is rather common across a number of cultures (it's common enough among whites to have been stereotypical in movies of the 50s). Theoretically, it's because at a young age, the "bad boy" looks like the male who has the moxy to "bring home the mammoth." At some point later, women mature and learn what characteristics actually do "bring home the mammoth"…with the emphasis on actually bringing it HOME.

There are a lot of things wrong in our society in terms of male/female interaction, and unfortunately, black people have long been the "canary in the coalmine" when it comes to things wrong in our society: If it's something bad, it affects us first and worst.

Jeri–>You don’t have to live in the suburbs to be feminine. People have said all my life that I am very feminine, patient, and intelligent, but I was not raised in the burbs but in a major city. I think I get my personality from my mother. She is exactly the type of women Menelike Charles described. She is beautiful, dark, and very feminine. She is also highly educated. And she was also raised in the city. So the stereotypical black “sapphire” women with “attitude” who acts like a man, is just that: a stereotype.<<

Wait, wait. I was talking about the "light, breezy femininity" that Menilik Charles spoke of. I didn't say "unfeminine."

My mother was feminine–very much so (torqued my father off a lot), but her femininity was never "light and breezy." My wife is feminine, but her femininity is not "light and breezy." Phylicia Rashad is feminine, but her femininity is not "light and breezy." Heck, not even Sade Adu's femininity is "light and breezy."

So are you saying that a black woman is incapable of having a personality that is “light and breezy”. First of all, what does “light and breezy” mean? Superfeminine!!Look, it sounds to me that you are putting down black women a little bit. And it is dangerous to make assumptions about people based on their race. Look, let me say something. If a man assumes that a woman isn’t capable of being very feminine and nice, he might treat her differently from women he does perceive as being feminine. He might be more aggressive with her or more cautious with her. This attitude might cause her not to show her best side because he isn’t showing her his best side. You understand what I am saying. You get more with honey than with vinegar.

Have you ever heard of the song “Give your baby a standing ovation, and she sure will give a hand to you” Black women are tired of being put down by black men. We want love, appreciation, respect, and understanding just like anyone else. So if you show her your best side, believe me, she will be whatever you want her to be, within limits of course.

And let me say something. How would you like it if black women constantly put down black men in favor of white men. Imagine if I said ” White men are nicer and more easy going than black man. I mean black men can be nice but no where near as nice as the average white men” It would hurt wouldn’t it. Now believe me, if I said that to black men on a regular basis, most black men would not be very nice to me. But if I said “Black men are strong, sexy, intelligent, with swagger, deeply spiritual, fascinating, and just plain exciting to be around. I love and appreciate them. I couldn’t live without them” Most black men would respond with love and gratitude. Well, that is what black women need. We need to hear black men say postive things about us. We need them to trust us. We need them to reach out to us, to greet us, and show love to us.

Now understand, most black women have been put down since we were children. We have been told that we are not pretty, nice, intelligent, etc. Our hair isn’t long enough, our skin isn’t light enough. Many of us grew up without the love of the man who we loved the most, our fathers. Many of us have experienced emotional, physical and sexual abuse. We went through this without any protection. Without anyone to stand up for us. And then after going through all of this, we grow up and find out that the men we love the most, black men, don’t appreciate or love us the way we want to be loved and appreciated. And then on top of everything, we are constantly put down in favor of women of other ethnicities. We told we are not nice or feminine, or pretty like white women. So explain to something to me. How would you expect black women to respond to black men after all of this? Think about it.

Back in the 70s, we didn’t particularly want “light and breezy.” The times were too serious and “light and breezy” did not equal “stand by your man.”

Have you ever seen the movie “Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned” with Laurence Fishburne and Natalie Cole? At one point, Laurence Fishburne (a worldly ex-convict) is in Natalie’s diner in a confrontation with a young hood that appears to be heading for violence. If you look over the shoulder of the young hood, you see Natalie pick up a frying pan full of hot grease, moving up close behind the hood.

Fishburne chills the situation without violence, but he’s noticed that she would have had his back. A light and breezy woman would just stand there and scream.

So “light and breezy” does not, to me, equal anything particularly useful in a woman. If you ever hear me say, “she’s light and breezy,” I mean “she’s an airhead.” I suspect that’s true of most American black man my age.

Yeah I have been talking alot lately!! LOL. You can say I have alot on my mind. You are funny. No, I just didn’t like it when he said that we are not “light and breezy” and now he is turning around and saying that black men don’t want ” light and breezy” . It is all so confusing.

Jeri–>Yeah I have been talking alot lately!! LOL. You can say I have alot on my mind. You are funny. No, I just didn’t like it when he said that we are not “light and breezy” and now he is turning around and saying that black men don’t want ” light and breezy” . It is all so confusing.<<

I'm not turning anything around–at least not anything I said. I never said there was anything good about "light and breezy."

I said: "It's pretty tough, given our history and the current economic situation, for black women in the US to have a light and breezy femininity. "

Rosa Parks was not "light and breezy." Angela Davis has never been "light and breezy."

I don't think there is anything confusing about it. A woman can be strong AND feminine without being "light and breezy." "Light and breezy" is a white privilege concept of femininity, as unreal as the proportions of a Barbie doll.

I don’t think that he is attracted to thicker women because he is overweight, but I do think that he defends thick women because he is. And I agree, men don’t know how put downs affect women because he is not one.

Jeri,

It may not of been his intent to make thin women, but when he realized that he offended some of the thin women on this blog, he certainly had no apathy toward that. In fact, he insults an entire group of women by stating that they look like they’re from concentration camps, unfeminine, boyish, ect. Calls me insecure and bitter and offers no reasonable form of explaination as to why he insults thin to uplift thick. So, I don’t want to believe that was his intent, but that’s questionable.

Also, I don’t feel bad at all for being thin. I just feel bad about people who try to make me feel bad about it.:)haha But thank you for that!

Sam,

I’m sorry that you were called names because of your size. So you of ALL people should know how it feels to be degraded. You were degraded so in turn, you degrade others. Even though overweight people and you continue to speak negatively of thin people, I have not once said ANYTHING negative or derogatory about thick people. That’s the difference between being bitter and not. Bitter people lash out on a group of people who make them feel insecure.

Like I’ve said, I have nothing against thick women or men who like them. Once again, it’s degrading a group of women who have nothing to do with the media to uplift other women, to make a point and to feel better about yourself.

Well, initially to me, it sounded like you were saying that black women were incapable of being feminine or not as feminine as white women. And trust me, when most black men say this, it is usually said with the intent to insult black women. Maybe you don’t feel that way. I don’t know. But I still say that you can’t summarize all black women and say what they can and cannot be capable of being. People always say how strong black women are but I think they say this to justify using black women or mistreating them. I personally don’t believe that black men all have similar personalities or traits. I mean some people believe that black men are more “cool” or have more “swagger” than other men, but I still see each black man as an individual. I don’t assume that all black men are this or that, you get what I am saying.

And understand something, I don’t want to believe that black men are all the same. I have many black men in my family, plus I am married to a black man and I don’t think I could love each and every one of them if I saw them as all being the same. I think the best way to love anybody is to see and treat them based on who they are, not based on assumptions you have about them. You understand what I am saying.

I hate how black male marriage statistics get so much attention. Who cares?
I say black women should date who appreciates them. There are more nonblack men who want to date black women than there are black men who do whether due to numbers or self hate (whatever). Keep your options open to quality people of all races. As for black women who have an undying sense of loyalty to black men, it’s a damn shame they have to suffer some foolish unrequited love lol but to each her own.
Black women need to stop listening to this nonsense about being at the bottom. Give me a break. Black women have a unique type of beauty that they themselves do not know of and appreciate. Then they will listen to black men who call them ugly and worthless just because they don’t have the “mixed” look, or because they aren’t “light and airy”. Please.
Black women-you are not “bottom of the barrel” by virtue of being black. The media may reinforce that mantra, sure. But once you turn off your television, the only people I see actively promoting that message are black men, and the black women who believed them. Raciomisogyny is real.

well said islandgirl. sam fail to realize how much words can hurt someone. even if he didn’t meant to hurt or bash thin women, in a way he did by calling us boyish, unfeminine, thinking that’s suppose to make thick women feel better. how can someone be bitter when they are expressing their opinions? like thick women but why put down a body type that you don’t like to make a point? that’s what we are trying to get. and just because the media praises thin women doesn’t mean we have confidence because i know some girls who are insecure because even though the media makes thin the ideal, we’re also stereotyped as anorexic, drug addicts, making young girls feel bad about themselves. so please if anything the media is not uplifting us at all. if you didn’t like people or anyone degrading thick women why do the same for thin? does that make you feel better as a man? if anything that makes you bitter because you bash others to make yourself or someone else feel good and frankly that’s not right. and i don’t know too many older women wishing they could be thin. if anything they’re getting surgery and botox rather than wanting to be thin but you don’t want to see it that way.

i’m going to put it like this, young girls have their insecure moments. some wish to be smaller. some wish to be bigger and yes it does happen but no one will acknowledge it. hell i’ve always wanted more of a curvy figure because the guys i know was attracted to girls like that and people thought i was too skinny and i really wasn’t. so being thin is not the end-all and be-all like others make it out to be. you’re going to be judged regardless. i’ve come to realize that i’m not a hourglass shape or a big booty sista from the hood and like islandgirl said, there is nothing wrong being thin. it’s the people that make you feel bad about it. i guess no matter what we say i don’t think you will ever understand how much it hurts to be bashed as a thin woman from a day to day basis. what if you had a daughter that was thin and she was getting picked on because of her figure, would you encourage her to love herself as you are or make her feel ugly and that you need meat on your bones to be beautiful?

so you can blame the media all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re part of the problem as to why women are insecure. stop using that as an excuse because like it or not it won’t change. if you don’t want anyone picking on you then you shouldn’t do it to others. case closed.

I hope you aren’t including me as black women who have an undying loyalty to black men. I have an undying loyalty to good men, whether they be black, white, Asian, whatever. I agree with you. I think black women should be open to quality men of all races. So I said, don’t totally exclude black men because they are some good black men out there. I said think of men as individuals, regardless of race. So if you run across a man who degrades black women, saying they are not feminine, nice, whatever, keep going. Look elsewhere. But understand, you have got white jerks and black jerks, so don’t be fooled by appearances alone. That is all I said.

@islandgril et al. Well, now I see whats the problem here. I guess I’m not sensitive enough. Sorry. I used bit harsh words back there, true. I should pay little bit attention to that, you’re right.

I guess when one is not sensitive to these things himself, one does not always remember nor understand that for others it is a different matter. Like I said, I really don’t care what other people think about me, my friends, my life, my clothes etc. so I guess it is really hard for me to be aways sensitive enough in my statements. I have a tendency to go over the top, specially when I get into my preaching mode :-D.

I was called fat kid back then, but I guess heavy is better description of what I am. I’m like a barrell, not fat in fatfat sense. But like I said, I never took these namecallings seriously. I have no idea why. It just never got into me. For me it was just trash talk anyway and in those circles where I grew up it was everyday thing. Everybody was treated like that, fat or not. As kids we all had degratory nikcnames to each other so I guess it was a kind of de-sensitizing program for the future. You just did not pay too much attention to it.

I have a good friend of mine who was called Pisspants, for real. He got it because he did piss in his pants once as a small kid. Anyway, years later we met as grownups and he called me and said on the phone: “Hi, it’s me! Pisspants!”. And this guy is now an executive in a quite large company. I hope he does not slip his nickname in some business confrence. Even I can use name Fat Sam sometimes in situations like that. Hi, its me, Fat Sam! I don’t even think what it means.

I think the reason why this whole issue (thick vs. thin) is so important to me is because of those female friends who have had/had problems with this. It is very hard to watch your friend suffering when there is nothing you can do or say that could make her feel better. And just because they think they are too fat, even though they’re not. It is not a nice feeling.

This is what I think a lot: maybe both women and men are attracted to secure people? You know, if you feel confident and are ok with yourself, others are drawn to you? If you feel unsecure no matter how beautiful you are, you will have difficulties in your relationships?

I’ve been thinking about this because I am attracted to women who are strong personalities, who feel good about themselves, and not so much good looks. And this was already way back, when I was young man. Good looks can be first attention cather but I think personality keeps the guy. Same thing with women. Like I said I never had problems in this regard and it can not be my “good” looks. So it must be that because I’m okay with myself, women somehow sense it and like it or something, I don’t know.

Ok, I used to lift weights so there is this “being strong” aspect too I guess, but I’ve noticed that women like to be in more physical contact with me, other than just holding hands. They like to lean on me, really! 😀 They like to sit on my lap, lay on top of me on couch, they ask me to lift them up, that kind of stuff that goes beyond just being cute. I have no idea what that is all about but it is funny sometimes. I had one girlfriend who liked to sit on my shoulders, really!! 😀 We were in parties or something and she wanted to get up on my shoulders. She could sit there as long as I kept her there. What the H that was about too? Somekind of animalistic comfort thing?

I think black women, thick or thin, light or dark, are fighting with these issues too. The bombarding of different beauty ideals which are something different than you, can make person crazy. You see photoshopped models in pictures, watch fashion pictures where 14 year old east european girls are advertising clothes for thirtyish women, and on top you hear schmucks like me talking about women. No wonder women have such difficulties sometimes with themselves.

With black women there is also the whole racist bullsh on top of this other crap. Somehow we should get rid of these things. Only because it would make our lives much easier.

Black women possessing a light, breezy, femininity, would wipe out opposition from ALL races of women. I have seen this with friends and family (e.g. Bros, uncles) who dated inter-racially all of my life, and who finally ended up with beautiful, feminine Black women of darker hue.

RDKirk asked:

you’re saying that if Black women acted like white women, they would get more black men? It’s pretty tough, given our history and the current economic situation, for black women in the US to have a light and breezy femininity. Maybe for Net Generation black girls who were raised in the ‘burbs. Maybe.

Menelik replies:

my dear friend, you really need to stop thinking and translating everything into Black and white; try mixing the two together and you’ll get grey! Light ‘n’ breezy femininity is a reference to sisters like Bria Myles, Alicia Keyes, Venus & Serena Williams and even my sweet, young sister, Y.

All of these sisters voice their opinions on any number of subjects with compassion, conviction and purpose. One need not agree with them, their lifestyles (boy, can those Williams sisters spend!), or their choice of partners. But this is not the point.

The point is that these sisters are unambiguously feminine. Men’s hearts swoon in the presence of such Black women. These are NOT chocolate Paris Hiltons or Pamela Andersons who are mere airheads: they’re just naturally feminine females that can be found anywhere in the world from African to New Zealand.

I don’t know your sister, but I would not categorize any of the others as “light and breezy.”

—>Black women possessing a light, breezy, femininity, would wipe out opposition from ALL races of women. I have seen this with friends and family (e.g. Bros, uncles) who dated inter-racially all of my life, and who finally ended up with beautiful, feminine Black women of darker hue.

That statement leaves me in complete opposition. I suggested the idea to my Net Gen daughter and it even torqued her off. Why must black women be “light and breezy” to find a mate?

Jeri–>Well, initially to me, it sounded like you were saying that black women were incapable of being feminine or not as feminine as white women. <

Why do you equate "light and breezy" as THE ONLY definition of femininity?

I’m not setting out to agree with you or earn your plaudits: I merely set out a variety of women I deem light ‘n’ breezy. Women who don’t take things – which are not directed at them, too personally; women who are feminine and complimentary to the masculine spirit. Women men love!

So yeah, I certainly don’t expect you to agree with my definition of the sorts of females that makes men’s hearts swoon. We don’t click…which is cool.

^Why does everything have to do with “self-hatred”? That is a term that is over-used, methinks.

Black women who don’t care about black men are not suffering from self-hatred. They are just past the point of caring. There is a point when a horse is dead and gone, so there is no need to continue kicking it. This topic of black women and black men and their relationship to each other is a gagged, bound, and dead horse, furthermore the topic of black men and their issues is old. There is nothing that can said now, that wasn’t said ten or even twenty years ago, and nothing has been changed in that time. What people need to do at this time is stop being so concerned about people that have no direct influence on their life. Care about people that care about you, and move on. The black women who don’t care to be moved by these issues have just finally realized that there are tons of other people who love them and are worthy of their attention.

Could you guys, please, explain what “light and breezy” femininity really means? I don’t seem to get that.

islandgirl,

I don’t think that he is attracted to thicker women because he is overweight, but I do think that he defends thick women because he is. And I agree, men don’t know how put downs affect women because he is not one.

But he never said he liked overweight women, he said he liked THICK women. Just like “thin” doesn’t mean “anorexic”, “thick” doesn’t mean “overweight”. This is an important thing to remember, because it shows, once again, the ideal types of beauty men often talk about, and it’s rarely “natural” beauty per se.

I believe Jasmin was the one who addressed this issue: just like men who are into thin women demand certain “standards”, so do men who like thick women. A thick woman needs to be of a certain shape- which is often not easy (or possible) to achieve.

Just look at Abagond’s posts: true, he is not into skinny women, but he made it clear that he’s not into overweight women either. He likes women who have a Kenya Moore shape. But if women are not of that shape, he prefers them to be thin, not fat (you’ll notice he praised several thin women on this blog, and never a single fat woman- as far as I know).

And he is just an example of this sort of thinking. Many (most?) guys are like that.

RDKirk,

In the US the ideal that ideally a wife would work only if she wants to.

I understand. So I guess it’s about different cultural norms (shaped by economy). Most of the people need to work here, and it’s really difficult even if both husband and wife are employed. So I guess that’s one of the reasons why working wives and mothers are seen as a normal thing. On the other hand, parents support their kids to mid-30 (sometimes even longer) so that’s another thing to keep in mind.

My daughter reports that in the Net Generation, it’s getting close to being equal in that regard.

Could be, but we’re not there yet, imo. Being unattractive is never seen as a positive thing (not that I think it’s ok), but being an unattractive female is still worse than being an unattractive male.

Natasha,

We are talking about black men here because there’s no appropriate post for them.

Mira, I know, but I think that should be a periphery topic at best. After all, that is not the subject of this post. There is just nothing that will be resolved or changed by discussing these issues, trust me. It will only get worst. The time for changing things has long since passed.

While I do believe women like to get laid as much as men, getting laid was never an achievement for a woman, nor does it mean anything in terms of social acceptance (can be quite contrary, in fact).

It is true that even the ugliest women can get laid fairly easily, but the question is, do they want a man who is otherwise disgusted by them, who would never appear with them in public, and who uses them as a sex toy for things his prettier girlfriends don’t want to do. There is a stereotype of an ugly girl who does everything her “boyfriend” demands, no matter how offensive and degrading it is, because she is afraid to say no and lose him.

This sort of arrangement do not bring happiness to women (not even on basic level: sexual) because if a man doesn’t have at least basic respect for a woman as a human being, he can’t satisfy her (nor does he care). And this sort of arrangement certainly doesn’t bring women social acceptance.

And this is only ONE aspect (sex). In terms of acceptance, popularity, friendship, dating and marrying- it is very difficult for women who are seen as ugly. People often don’t even notice them. And yes, being an ugly guy sucks, not doubt, but MALE PRIVILEGE gives them more power and opportunities. While it’s certainly best (for many reasons) to be a hot guy, even if you are not one, you are able to gain certain social value. Ugly women can gain acceptance and be successful, but it’s more difficult. (On the other hand, being too beautiful sometimes means that people would think you’re not smart- but that’s another story).

Also yes, I do believe it’s easier for an ugly man to find a woman for a long term relationships/marriage than an ugly woman.

Natasha,

Mira, I know, but I think that should be a periphery topic at best. After all, that is not the subject of this post. There is just nothing that will be resolved or changed by discussing these issues, trust me. It will only get worst. The time for changing things has long since passed.

Black men are not important for this discussion and I agree, it should be about black women. Still, the problem with this blog is that there is more stuff about women than men, and I guess some people want to discuss black men but they don’t have a more appropriate place to do that.

And maybe I’m just being naive- maybe guys do want to take over this thread and make it all about them.

But I do agree that people should care about their friends and family and people who care about them more than an imaginary community, no matter what that community might be (black people, women, religious groups, people who share your sexual orientation, nationality, etc.)

Also, don’t expect abagond to write a post on male privilege because I doubt he could. He clearly indulges in it! Or black men in general, because he is a black male and that works against his self-interest (if people don’t have only positive things to say).

you have to insert all manner of fabricated example in order to prove your point. Listen, even good looking guys get laid less than unattractive females. How do I know this? My uncle used to run a swinger’s club, this is how I know!

Moreover, men pursue women for dates, sex, and often get down on one knee to propose marriage. Divorce and custody laws favour women as do those on domestic violence. On a sinking ship? Women and children first, if you will! I could go on: really, I could.

A woman’s primary value is her beauty. If she has it, she has a powerful weapon and a privilege to help her go through life. While it is true that those who put too much emphasis on their looks may be seen as stupid, that’s nothing different clothes or make-up can’t change. On the other hand, if a woman is seen as ugly, it can bring many problems, both in terms of social life, as well as emotional problems. And while it’s great for a woman to be intelligent, successful, educated (etc.) even if her only value are her good looks she is not considered a loser and a total failure.

Ugly men, no doubt, have many problems while growing up (being teased, rejected, ridiculed, etc.) so please don’t think this is some kind of feminist crap. I care about men and I don’t want to minimize problems they face. Still, it’s undeniable that a man’s primary value is not his good looks, but his brains and character. While it’s certainly great to be gorgeous AND smart, being ugly is not seen as a total failure like, perhaps, it is to be an unsuccessful loser.

don’t expect abagond to write a post on male privilege because I doubt he could. He clearly indulges in it!

Menelik replies:

the group Abagond “indulges” the most is Black women! Jesus, some of my ‘net friends’ deem him a “pussy whipped, pussy begging, Black-female worshipping, mangina”!

Yeah, they consider he submits to Black female privileges, i.e. wants, desires, and sensitivities. I find it most interesting that you consider such a Black female-centric, and accommodating Black man “privileged”. I shall keep this in mind from now on.

Also, don’t expect abagond to write a post on male privilege because I doubt he could. He clearly indulges in it! Or black men in general, because he is a black male and that works against his self-interest (if people don’t have only positive things to say).

I know. But he does seem like a guy who wants to be fair, and since he wrote so many times about other forms of privilege, he certainly understand the importance of discussing this stuff. If he can’t write that post (those posts) he can let women do it as guest posts.

If nothing else, Abagond and this blog proved to be a place where there are no forbidden subjects to be discussed, and where nobody’s prevented to state his or her opinion (unless it’s ad hominem).

Menelik,

Listen, even good looking guys get laid less than unattractive females.

And that proves… what? Since when “getting laid” is a synonym on “having a privileged, problem-free life”? It’s not, at least not for women.

PS-And with all due respect, female privilege post can be made, but only with black privilege and homosexual privilege posts.

On the other hand, I do believe women do have certain privileges (you mentioned child custody laws and domestic violence), and I agree, these things need to be talked about. But it does suspiciously look like whites who like to talk about affirmative action a lot more than white supremacy.

Hmmm… True, Natasha, but for some crazy reason I thought that, maybe, black men (and most of the male commenters here are black) might be able to understand these things better.

But I am sorry to say they presented themselves in a similar light as white women: because of discrimination they face, they are completely unable to see that they might have a certain privilege and that they can be oppressors.

I agree with you! Most of the male commenters here are difficult to get along with and I never have a problem getting along with men. Most seem like they have an agenda that they are pushing. Whether it is for thick women, dark women, biracial people, ect. If you don’t fit into their agenda or cause, they automatically disregard you and your comments and become antigonistic toward you.

I really liked mynameismyname. He is a cool brother that was easy to communicate with and had no agendas. Just real talk!

Mira,

Yes, I correct that. I should say that since he is overweight, he has no apathy toward thin women. Thick does not necessarily equate to overweight.

Sam,

Thanks for your response.

Also, I wouldn’t categorize the Williams sister as light and breezy feminine. I don’t see them as that as much as they are athletic.

“If you don’t fit into their agenda or cause, they automatically disregard you and your comments and become antigonistic toward you.”

True. Definitely true. I don’t understand this at all.

“I really liked mynameismyname. He is a cool brother that was easy to communicate with and had no agendas. Just real talk!”

Yeah, mynameismyname is cool. Even if I don’t agree with him on some topics, I don’t believe he is a hypocrite, petulant, or ignorant, like some other commenters. You can have an actual discussion with him without feeling like you wasted precious minutes of your life. He applies the same rules to everyone.

Oh, so noow I see what is going on. You are overweight and feel the need to defend women like you. That explains it.

Wow. I find this comment to be incredibly rude. In America in particular “skinniness” or “thinness” is what is considered to be normal or desirable. Someone should be supporting people who aren’t generally considered skinny. America is a very fat phobic country–you don’t even have to be overweight or obese to attract hateful unwanted attention.

Mira said:

But he never said he liked overweight women, he said he liked THICK women. Just like “thin” doesn’t mean “anorexic”, “thick” doesn’t mean “overweight”. This is an important thing to remember, because it shows, once again, the ideal types of beauty men often talk about, and it’s rarely “natural” beauty per se.

Wisely said. There’s a myth that the Black community accepts “fatness”. This is completely untrue. Black people judge beauty on feminine shape “thickness” and curves. They condemn those who are labeled overweight and obese just like everybody else.

Mira said:
But I am sorry to say they presented themselves in a similar light as white women: because of discrimination they face, they are completely unable to see that they might have a certain privilege and that they can be oppressors.

And as usual, black women are those who are trashed in the process.

Truer words have never been said.

In the so-called “Oppression Olympics” there has long since been a conversation of who is more oppressed–Black men or Black women? Black men have the privilege of being male–so you already know what my answer. If I had to give an answer. “Black heterosexual male” seems to trump “female” anyone at any time in most arenas. Some argue the contrary.

This belongs to another thread, but one could argue whether religion is a perk or a hindrance in the resolution of the issues of the African-American community.

I agree–religion is an issue in the Black community. There are certain things that people don’t believe in or don’t want to say or criticize the Black Church for. No one here seems to want to criticize the institution of marriage period.

Dahoman X said:

The comments on this page show some serious gender antagonism.

The disturbing black men dating patterns and the black ladies bent on letting the world know how much they don’t care about the black men confirms my opinion that self-hatred is the real issue here.

I don’t agree with everything that has been said in posts here. From male or female identified posters. I for one just think its pointless to try and call Black men out on their internalized racism: I think some other women here might agree with me on that and you are overstating the issue by presuming that they “do not care about the [B]lack men.

In the original post I believe that Abagond was really trying to just be honest on his opinions and experiences of Black women. Unfortunately it seems at this point in time that some of the very same typical negative male attitudes (and negative female attitudes) about Black women are coming out.

Black women are bound ’round and ’round with detrimental stereotypes perpetuated from within their own community from within their own race and from outside of their community and race.

I can’t help but think that most men–in particular–are just on this hamster wheel in their own brains about women and femininity and what they think “femininity” is supposed to look like (i.e. “light and breezy feminine”–I mean what the heck is that?). And they just can’t get off that damn hamster wheel.

“Wow. I find this comment to be incredibly rude. In America in particular “skinniness” or “thinness” is what is considered to be normal or desirable. Someone should be supporting people who aren’t generally considered skinny. America is a very fat phobic country–you don’t even have to be overweight or obese to attract hateful unwanted attention.”

I think what islandgirl was getting at is that one doesn’t have to put down either group in defense of the other. There are ways to ensure that overweight or obese people don’t feel neglected or unwanted, but putting down thinner people is not the best way to do that (even it might be a natural reflex). Because we end up back at square one — people feeling insecure due to their appearance.

Thank you for your comment. I sensed in some of the comments that people were being defensive or overly supportive of “thinness” or “skinniness”. The automatic reaction from people who aren’t thin is this: “Oh you skinny girls ain’t all that!” I agree with you. It becomes a process of those who are thin (and their supporters) oppressing people who are not. Those who not thin in turn oppress those who are thin.Oppression begets oppression.

I’m speaking more about power dynamics and one-ups. Thin is the voice of America. People who are obese or overweight, plus size, are infamously underrepresented.

You think that what I said was incredibly rude! Did you not see the entire discussion where Sam basically defeminized thin women, but I’m rude?! That’s a bit one sided, don’t you think? Plus HE’S the one who said that he is overweight, not me.

I support people who aren’t thin, but what I don’t support is people who are not thin taking that out on others. I have absolutely nothing against thick OR overweight people. If people are kind to me, I’m kind to them. Period.

Natasha, yes you get what I am saying. But some people just cannot except that.

“Whether it is for thick women, dark women, biracial people, ect.”

“Lol!”

😉

I too did not always agree with myname, but at least we could have a mature, agenda free discussion. I didn’t feel that antagonistic almost catty vibe from him that I do from some of the others.

I don’t think there is any set definition, or even a few commonly used definitions. I too thought it meant something other than what the original commenter meant it to be. Meanwhile, I also don’t think one could say with any truthfulness that “___ women can not be light and breezy.”

I think the problem is that everyone has their own defintion. But I think it is a woman with effortless or inherernt feminity but also a traditionally pretty woman. Maybe the opposite of an earthy feminine woman.

Again, I didn’t mean to come off as rude. I read some of your blog and this may be a sensitive issue for you as well. I am the last person who would want to be insensitive peoples sensitivities. But as Natasha brilliantly pointed out, people should realize that putting down one in defense of another puts us all back at square one.

Any group can have its share of “light and breezy” women (whatever that means). I just can’t figure out what it means. If it’s what we see in old (white) movies, with blonde, blue eyed women talking “softly” (read: annoyingly), and walking as if they were made of glass, with constant confused and terrified (constipated?) look on their faces?

“I think it is a woman with effortless or inherernt feminity but also a traditionally pretty woman… just think a Cover Girl Model.”

Lol. That is what I was thinking, actually. Probably because of the “easy, breezy, beautiful — CoverGirl” catch phrase. If it’s that, I can play a CoverGirl/light and breezy pretty well. And yes, it’s serious man-bait. But it can be annoying, for both the woman and her audience.

But RDKirk said he meant “airheaded” when he said “light and breezy.”… Go figure.

I agree with Islandgirl–Sam was the one who brought it up, so people are within their rights to disagree. It’s not like Islandgirl just came out of nowhere talking about people hating on thin women. My personal opinion is that most men who extol the values of thick women while putting down thin women are full of crap and generally end up with thinner women (as most American men do, it’s culturally ingrained). They use bigger women as their PC pass–notice how bigger women are always put on the defensive and serve as the “voice” of the bigger woman cause. If all of these men love bigger women, why aren’t they showing that through their dating/marriage preferences?

What’s most unfortunate is that the situation always turns into thick women vs. thin women, even though both (maybe thick women especially?) should be calling out men for not putting their money where their mouth is. After all, straight women aren’t interested in dating each other, so what other women think about their size is only important in so much as it related to what men think.

Why would you want to play “light and breezy”? I’m not saying you are, but women should not be that thirsty for male attention.

What is “inherent femininity” and “traditionally pretty” anyway? Especially when “light and breezy” defined for many men as “airheaded”. People just need to be themselves. Stop worrying about being masculine or feminine. Why is sexuality so gender-polarized?

I definitely think you’re right on. There was some confusion here about the definition of “thick” and “overweight/obese”.

Women should not fight amongst themselves when men’s “preference” issues are AT LEAST 50% of the problem. At the same time that men need to be called out on their bs, thin women need to be called out for their privilege. You can’t do one without committing to the other.

What is “inherent femininity” and “traditionally pretty” anyway? Especially when “light and breezy” defined for many men as “airheaded”. People just need to be themselves. Stop worrying about being masculine or feminine. Why is sexuality so gender-polarized?

I agree.

I was going to get into “what is femininity/a “real” woman” a long way back, but that would have been a serious derail. The point is that there are no set definitions. Like abagond defines a “real” woman as one with a full figure, some define it as one with a petite frame. So it’s all very subjective.

As for me, I don’t play “light and breezy” on purpose, it just happens sometimes. (Then I later wonder what the heck happened to make me giggle 15 times in a 20 min. time period…) No one should be told they have to behave a certain way, and especially not to “snag” a guy. If that’s your personality, go for it, but if not, you shouldn’t force it.

@jasmin et all. Well, I was not offended by islandgirls comments at all. After all, she gave back the way I spoke, so no hard feelings there. And I assume we got cleared allready between us islandgirl. I guess?? I’m not sure.

And Jasmin, I guess you did not read all I wrote: I’ve been with bigger girls and women too, so I guess that makes me one of those guys whose words and deed do match. That said, like I wrote, for me it is much more about the personality, the person, rather than this or that any single physical attribute. I don’t fall in with a nose or boobs or buttocks but the person.

Ok, I like fuller women in general, but I’m not obsessed about them. I’ve had slim girlfriends etc., but that was just my preference. Like I told islandgirl, I got worked up because some other stuff, and went overboard with my words. But that was my bad. And she gave me back, so its ok with me.

Yes, exactly!! Easy, breezy, beautiful cover girl. And all of those girls have a certain look. I’m sure you do as well. I always pictured you looking like Paula Patton, for some reason.

Jasmin,

Yes!! Thank you! He is the one that intially brough that up. I would have never come out of the blue and speak negatively of thick women or defend thin women without cause. But, if someone attacks you or what you are, of coarse you’re going to speak on it. And that’s what I did. It’s because that you or me or whoever, as a thin women, are considered advantaged, people think that we should just take the attacks.

I also agree, Jasmin, that men like that do tend to be full of it and most often end up with thin women. Also, I think they think they are being somehow “noble” by being so militant about it.

We should all look beyond the surface as to what really going on. Men who really care about women and women’s issues should not want to pit woman against woman. Every woman has her own advantages and disadvantages. Men sometimes will use those to divide and conquer.

Again, thanks to all who are willing to look at the situation for what it truly is.

Why are you trying so hard to make it about you? I had one relevant statement about you: Sam was the one who brought it up, so people are within their rights to disagree. Why you want people you don’t know to care whom you prefer is beyond me(?).

Ms. Queenly,

For women who are trying to find a man, a more efficient strategy is to probably take it up with men. The “thin is in” bias in our culture will probably change at about the same rate as the “White is right” mentality will, so when it comes to people’s personal lives, an individual approach is best. What “White people think” about Black women hasn’t stopped me from being with a guy who’s head over heels for me (and happens to be White), and I don’t think “what the media thinks” about women sized average and up is going to doom a bigger woman to a life of unhappiness either.

I think the trouble starts when men try to isolate “light and breezy” and gut and empty everything else out of a woman’s character and head; or they persist in believing “this is what a woman should be like”. A woman can have those kinds characteristics be a part of her; its a completely different thing to have someone come along and tell you that this is all you should be in order to be in a relationship with them.

I worry about people who can be summed up in a single phrase. Most women are more complex beings than that. That’s what many men can’t deal with–beautiful, complex personalities.

I forgot to mention–I’ve blogged about thin privilege before (basically a longer post on some of the things I’ve mentioned here). But I don’t think men need to be centered in that conversation, because they are pretty much the central reason why women care in the first place. It makes no sense for straight women to care what other women think about them–the reason they care is because they believe that thin women unduly influence men’s preferences. But thin women can’t be punished just for existing, especially since few have any power to change the mainstream media (especially televison, which is run by men). Just as it’s counterproductive for me to focus on changing the mind of every male in America, when I only need one to date/marry, it’s counterproductive for bigger women to focus their attentions on other women when it’s men who are ultimately part of the endgame.

“It makes no sense for straight women to care what other women think about them–the reason they care is because they believe that thin women unduly influence men’s preferences. But thin women can’t be punished just for existing, especially since few have any power to change the mainstream media (especially televison, which is run by men).”

Brill-ant!! That’s all I’m saying. Couldn’t have said it better. Also, I’ll have to check out that post. I must have missed that one.

I think that you very well could be light and breezy, if you accept the Covergirl definition of it (a young and fresh look).

Me too! I think Natasha once mentioned something about being of a similar height, or built, or having a similar skin tone (not remember which) as Paula Patton, so that’s why we started imagining her like Ms Patton. (And I am aware this is completely OT, but I guess people have the need to imagine people behind avatars. I guess it’s difficult not to do that).

On thin vs thick,

Please note that women here were not arguing, let alone fighting before men came with “X women look like boys” rubbish.

And as for thin privilege, I believe it exists. One can’t deny that. However, I am not saying islandgirl is making stuff up, or that she had fun when others teased her and other thin women, OR that thin women should be accessible targets. There’s nothing wrong about being thin, and men who are into curvy women are as cruel as those who are into skinny models.

And finally, I agree with Jasmin: what men in general think should not be any woman’s concern. All a woman needs is one man, and there are always men who don’t share “general” views, be it about woman’s body, race, behavior, etc.

islandgirl & Jasmin,We should all look beyond the surface as to what really going on. Men who really care about women and women’s issues should not want to pit woman against woman. Every woman has her own advantages and disadvantages. Men sometimes will use those to divide and conquer.

You’re right on here. Men do use women to divide and conquer. But… Unity is a myth, even among women: Women will stab each other in the back if they get something out of it. Especially if they can get a man, a job, or fame and attention.

Ignoring man/woman, thin/fat, straight/queer, poor/wealthy binaries does not mean that they do not exist. Jasmin, you say that certain people won’t be “doomed to a life of unhappiness” but you seem unwilling to acknowledge or see the mentalities and other obstacles that face women of color who are not thin or “traditionally pretty” (for example) on a day-to-day basis. You talk about focus and counterproductivity. Separate “focus” from “criticism”. Whether you believe it or not, the way people percieve you shapes crucial moments in your life. Ignoring how society operates does not change how it affects your life.

“Bigger women”, women of color, queer women, disabled woman, and so on are punished everyday for existing. Since you have taken an “individualistic approach” and you’re happy–everyone should do the same with similar results? I could be reading you wrong so help me out.

A general sense of unity does not exist for this very reason. Women and women, men and women, cannot even understand each other or the pain and obstacles that they face.

Mira, that’s funny, no we don’t look anywhere near alike. Similar skin color (at least when she is somewhat tanned, otherwise she can be pale). But don’t say that too loud before you attract our resident mixed persons advocate.

You all can picture me as this now, when the new gravatar comes up ^ (It’s my SO…yayy!).

I don’t think I have a celebrity look-alike. My boyfriend says I look like Gabrielle Union, but I think that’s just what he wants to believe. And someone once told me that I look like Audra McDonald, but I’m not sure since our cheeks are shaped differently (mine are pretty much non-existent!).

Obviously I’m nowhere near thick, but it seems to me (and I’m not just talking about myself, I know plenty of thin women who aren’t hurting for male attention) that men who prefer thick women will still go after thin women, but men who prefer thin women won’t go after bigger ones. So it’s still an advantage to be thin, a) because male conceptions of thickness are skewed downward and b) men are more likely to accommodate you into their preferences than they would be for a bigger woman.

I think thin-bashing bigger women should realize they are shooting themselves in the foot by taking up the cause of some Black men. These men say they want “a woman with meat on her bones” and all that, but at the end of the day many of them (specifically those who claim to hate smaller women) go after thin girls. So I think the conflict within women isn’t because thick women think they are better or vice versa, it’s because thick women have been fed all of these lines that don’t correlate with reality. It reminds me of the topic of Black men and hair. How many Black men say they can’t stand weaves? How many of them are dating women with weaves? Same thing.

Yea, you’re reading me wrong. I just posted the link to the post I wrote on my own blog, and I think you should read it. And it’s definitely counterproductive to assume that pretty, thin, disabled, woman of color, and queer are mutually exclusive categories.

I don’t usually say this, but I think you are taking out your personal issues on the wrong people. Who said binaries don’t exist? My point is, whether Abagond and every man on this blog “loves” big women or not does nothing for you (the general you) as a person if no one around you feels the same way. As other people have mentioned multiple times, no one was talking about women and weight until a man brought it up. And he was rightfully criticized, both as an individual and as part of a group that blows smoke up women’s *sses on a regular basis. If you (the general you) are dissatisfied with men’s attitudes towards bigger women vs. thin women, you should take that up with men who claim to prefer bigger women but show differently through their actions. Those are the people who are disappointing you, not thin women. Like I said, it makes no sense for a straight woman to pay so much attention to what another straight woman thinks, given that her objective is to attract male attention. Some food for thought:

“…This whole issue is about who is “more” attractive to men, and while I think one could argue that thinner women are “more attractive” (attractive as a verb) on average, it doesn’t actually mean they are better-looking than big women–society has just conditioned men to prefer thin. I don’t know how that’s our fault (hence the haterade), but I’ve found that women who are truly comfortable with their size (thick or thin) are too busy enjoying life (and the attention from men) to spew negativity about the other end of the scale.

He is cuute! You and Jasmin have great taste. No one can accuse you two of not choosing the cream of the crop.

Mira,

I really respect you as a self-proclaimed “thicker” woman, you express your issues and problems that you have without attacking ones that are not like you. That shows confidence and being comfortable with yourself.

Even though sometimes I think you think that you are thicker than what you are (I’ve seen your pic), I cannot and will not discount your concerns. And you’re right, women were not fighting and do not generally fight on this site until an insensitve man come (intentionally or unintentionally) and causes conflict.

My very best friend is thick. Not once has she ever tried to make me feel bad about being thin, nor have I about being thick. Women need to stop being sooo competitive.

And just know, I would be defensive if a man came to the post bashing thick women, dark women, light women because bashing is cruel and unnecessary.

You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. Women’s attitudes cause issues for other women and they should be called on it. Let’s not even make it about men.
That’s all I’m saying.

For the record, I never said those categories were mutually exclusive.

I guess we’ve just reached some differences in philosophies.

If people really believe all that about “being too busy enjoying life”–that’s on them. Its not spewing negativity” to offer serious critiques of societal norms. Some people do “spew negativity about thin women”. At the same time, some people accept the world the way it is and say, “Oh its the individual’s fault if they aren’t happy” rather than at least try and change things. American individualism is so detrimental. But many people subscribe to it and I’m only one person that would suggest they rethink the selfishness. Labeling criticism as “negativity” or going “Oh! of course you would say that!” is just another way of protecting your own beliefs, pushing your agenda, or buffering against criticism. (general you)

I do think female unity is a myth (even though I do think there are things that could unite women). First of all, white women often (too often) don’t see women of other races as one of their own, which makes all their talk about feminism null and void. Second of all, women are competitive when it comes to looks and other things (but looks is the first thing), and it goes way too far, to the point that often overweight women and thin women (or those who are seen as pretty and those who are seen as ugly) can’t see each other as one of their own! Etc. etc.

And yes, when talking about women, beauty is always the first thing that is discussed. I mean, take a look around (first at the post itself, and then comments). It’s mostly about physical appearance and (physical) beauty. Some people did talk about intelligence and character, but it’s mostly about beauty. It’s always like that with any discussion about women.

Since you have taken an “individualistic approach” and you’re happy–everyone should do the same with similar results?

Individualistic approach is the only one there is. And it should be separated from the general approach. Which means that to somebody’s personal happiness what “people” think it’s not particularly important. Even if society says she’s ugly, fat, not worth love. etc. that one man matters more because “conventionally” pretty or not, you only need one guy. On the other hand, someone’s personal experience doesn’t automatically changes what “people” think (for example, black woman in a happy relationship with a white man can’t deny there are plenty of racist whites who disrespect black women). But these two levels should be separated.

Whether you believe it or not, the way people percieve you shapes crucial moments in your life.

I was teased a lot in school and ridiculed about the way I looked. People would take a pillow and put it on their butts to imitate how I look. They once threw a trash bin on an overweight girl. I am sure many people have similar stories to tell (even if they are thin). It hurts badly, and while it certainly helps to look a certain way, women who are considered beautiful are not any “ugly” woman’s enemy per se. But Jasmin is right: it’s all about men, so they should prove their preference for fuller women, to prove they don’t care about woman’s appearance because it’s character that matters- or STFU. (Just like white people who claim they would date blacks “if there’s an opportunity” should prove that as well, or STFU).

Natasha,

Thanks for sharing the picture! It a tiny pic, but I can see he has beautiful hair. lol

I think Jasmin is spot on. I think that you just do not want to see her, mine or anyone else views that oppose you on this topic is because you are very sensitive to this issue and to be honest, you are more comfortable being able to be defensive and deflect your frustrations toward thin women. Like she said we don’t control the media. We are not the men who choose women. Focus your efforts on THEM.

MLK didn’t attack all white people simply for being white. Doing so is counter-productive and doesn’t accomplish anything. He focused on the SYSTEM that created the problems, not the individual person. If any of us who blamed all white men for black issues, some of us would miss out on great relationships.

Also, no one is being selfish simply because we don’t agree that there is indeed a double standard toward thin women sometimes. I’m all for people being treated equally, but I’m not going to be “leveled”, meaning put in my place to make someone else feel better. We all deserve to feel good about ourselves.

Another note, there are several thick women who “enjoy life” and have great relationships and attract attention. But you know what I’ve noticed about them? They are positive and accept people for what they are.

GataAgressiva says,
I hate how black male marriage statistics get so much attention. Who cares?
I say black women should date who appreciates them. There are more nonblack men who want to date black women than there are black men who do whether due to numbers or self hate (whatever). Keep your options open to quality people of all races. As for black women who have an undying sense of loyalty to black men, it’s a damn shame they have to suffer some foolish unrequited love lol but to each her own.
Black women need to stop listening to this nonsense about being at the bottom. Give me a break. Black women have a unique type of beauty that they themselves do not know of and appreciate. Then they will listen to black men who call them ugly and worthless just because they don’t have the “mixed” look, or because they aren’t “light and airy”. Please.
Black women-you are not “bottom of the barrel” by virtue of being black. The media may reinforce that mantra, sure. But once you turn off your television, the only people I see actively promoting that message are black men, and the black women who believed them. Raciomisogyny is real.

laromana says,
GataAgressiva,
Thanks for this uplifting, inspiring, and truthful comment.
Despite the ANTI-BW RACISM that dominates American culture and constantly reinforces ANTI-BW LIES/MYTHS/STEREOTYPES that trash the HUMANITY/DIGNTIY/FEMININITY, BW need to be reminded that there is NOTHING WRONG with us.
BW are NORMAL, HUMAN, WOMEN who are as beautiful, desirable and worthy of love as NON-BW.

jeri says
@KDKirk

Now understand, most black women have been put down since we were children. We have been told that we are not pretty, nice, intelligent, etc. Our hair isn’t long enough, our skin isn’t light enough. Many of us grew up without the love of the man who we loved the most, our fathers. Many of us have experienced emotional, physical and sexual abuse. We went through this without any protection. Without anyone to stand up for us. And then after going through all of this, we grow up and find out that the men we love the most, black men, don’t appreciate or love us the way we want to be loved and appreciated. And then on top of everything, we are constantly put down in favor of women of other ethnicities. We told we are not nice or feminine, or pretty like white women. So explain to something to me. How would you expect black women to respond to black men after all of this? Think about it.

laromana says,
jeri,
Thanks for this insightful, honest comment.
EVERYONE needs to be reminded of the ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE EVERY BW is subjected to in America and the REAL impact it has on how we’re viewed/treated our entire lifetimes.

I also agree that EVERYONE should understand the REALITY that, unlike NON-BW, BW don’t enjoy the protection of their honor/dignity from MOST BM.
Instead BW have had to deal with MOST BM CONDONING/PROMOTING ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.

Instead of PRETENDING to be concerned about
the “singleness rate” of BW, American media should produce FACTUAL pieces that reveal the pervasive HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that has led to the CONSTANT trashing of the HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY of BW in Amercan culture/society.

Do you mean attention in general like in the mainstream media? I’m not really sure–people I’ve talked to who are on the “wrong side of the coin” only seem to bring attention to the issue of the media and such when it relates to their dissatisfaction with male attention. None of the thick women in my family seem to care much about media representation either way (though I do come from a long line of good looking women :-P).

The “individualistic approach” idea just seems presumptuous and unrealistic to me. People who give bigoted advice from a position of privilege frustrate me. From my position as a social justice advocate I will not take advice from commentators who have clearly shown in their comments that they are fat phobic heterosexist and just as defensive as any colorblind racist.

The comments just keep getting tighter and tighter even between women–less unified. More and more heterosexist. Less empathetic. More individualistic. It may or may not show but I’m just frustrated by it.

At the same time, some people accept the world the way it is and say, “Oh its the individual’s fault if they aren’t happy” rather than at least try and change things

Who said that here? I suggest you go find that person and take that up with him/her. As other people who climb on the soapbox here have learned, you need to direct your concerns toward what people have said, not what you think they said or just made up to suit your agenda. At this rate, you are just contributing to the stereotype of the “bitter big girl” rather than taking up your dissatisfaction with thick-bashers with people who have actually bashed thick women. That would be a lot more productive than airing your self-esteem issues on the Internet. /just sayin’

Well put, Islandgirl. Auto-defensiveness makes most people unattractive.

I don’t think that you look like anyone famous. But there is a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader a couple of years back that is your spitting image. I will try to find a pic.

Mira,

I’m sorry that you had those experiences. Kid’s can be so cruel but I hope you took those negative experiences to make you stronger. There are plenty of women who would love to have that “problem” and are paying good money for it!

Its interesting how these types of comments come from two people who have self-identified as thin or not thick. It is almost always the privileged who are the first to use the word “bitter”. And I should take advice from that type of commentator because…..???

I reiterate: Being critical of how thinness is a privilege does not mean that I am bitter or that I hate thin women.

But Jasmin is right: it’s all about men, so they should prove their preference for fuller women, to prove they don’t care about woman’s appearance because it’s character that matters- or STFU. (Just like white people who claim they would date blacks “if there’s an opportunity” should prove that as well, or STFU).

Mira,

Pretty much. Just as I wouldn’t want to be use as some White man’s hypothetical “proof” that he’s not racist, I don’t think thick women should settle for all talk and no action from men.

This is getting to the point of being ridiculous. I didn’t “attack” you and you know it. A personal attack would be if I said derogatory things about your being thick. If you could legitimately show you where I attacked you,I would be more than willing to apologize. And no, I did not break any rules.

All we’ve been saying is to take up your personal frustrations up with the ones who enforce it, not women who’ve done nothing to you. I’m all for women unity, but sometimes people make it hard.

“The “individualistic approach” idea just seems presumptuous and unrealistic to me. People who give bigoted advice from a position of privilege frustrate me. From my position as a social justice advocate”

I don’t think anyone here is denying societal issues or painting them as not important to the individual. I mean, we’re all here on this blog, and this is a blog that discuss such issues all the time.

What people are saying is that (a) blaming/attacking individuals (in this case, thin women) is not so helpful and (b) certain societal issues will always be there, and you can fight them, but these issues are not the end all, be all in terms of your personal circumstances. You are always in control of your personal situation (however limited it may be). This isn’t “Don’t worry, be happy!” talk, but just keeping all aspects in mind.

You are still fighting a strawman: no one said thinness isn’t a privilege. On my own blog, I said these exact words: “Physically, I’m aligned with the thin crowd, but that doesn’t change my opinion that skinny girls have the privileges.”

What Islandgirl said is that putting down thin women to uplift thick ones is wrong. Pretty simple.

What I said was that putting down thin women to uplift thick ones is counterproductive because it doesn’t change the dating/marriage habits of most men. It was a man who brought the topic up, and I expressed skepticism that most men like him were actually following up those words with actions. Why doesn’t that make you angry? You aren’t seeking romantic attention from me or Islandgirl, so doesn’t it bother you that most men who say they love thick women will still pass one up for a thin one?

It is bitter to misdirect your anger–it reminds me of Black women who get angry when another Black woman criticizes their White male worship. Are you (the general you) afraid of correctly directing your anger for fear of alienating the object of your affection? I guess it’s easier to believe in some kind of thin conspiracy than it is to admit that many men buy into culturally-based beauty standards or that there are White men who will give lip service to Black women without ever taking the idea seriously.

Ms. Queenly, for what it’s worth, this would also be considered a personal attack:

“From my position as a social justice advocate I will not take advice from commentators who have clearly shown in their comments that they are fat phobic heterosexist and just as defensive as any colorblind racist.”

But I think we can all realize that no one meant to attack anyone here, and keep the discussion civil.

Well, it seems to me that most of the examples of “light and breezy” BW are all light-skinned or mixed-race women. And the “earthy” BW are all dark-skinned with Afrotypic features. I guess in order to be “light and breezy” you first have to be light. Otherwise, you’re down here with us earthy, dirt, mud people, I guess.

Yeah, as a sista who is in no way light by any definition and is not breezy yet somehow attracted herself a man without having to bed, plead, cajole, pay him, do tricks, cook all his meals, pay his mortgage or knock him unconscious, y’all can miss me with that ish.

Hmmph! Goin’ by that logic I guess my “earthy” ass should be in residence under a bridge harassing billy goats for toll.

The comments don’t have to be removed; I think it depends. If the discussion continues down that route, then yes, they probably will be.

That’s exactly what I was trying to get at! Sounds like “Don’t worry be happy” talk to me.”

It might’ve sounded that way to you, but that wasn’t the intent, I assure you. The commenters here are well aware of social issues and how they affect people. Jasmin even wrote about the very topic of thin privilege, so I doubt she is telling you to just “get over it”.

Jasmin,

I think you two are misunderstanding each other. I don’t think she is bitter, and I don’t think you’re being presumptuous. But I think you (somewhat) clarified your position.

I see that it’s impossible to have a civil discussion with you about this because this topic bother’s you so much. You don’t want to understand or admit to understanding our stance on this. It is counter-productive.

We all are just saying – Yes, we’re all for thick women but don’t degrade thin women in the process. I don’t understand how people cannot understand that. Or is it that they just don’t want to?

I don’t think you have to be actually “light-skinned” to be “light and breezy” as per the definitions presented here. I think Gabrielle Union and Stacey Dash were mentioned and I don’t think most people would describe them as light.

Dissatisfaction with life outside of the Internet matters a lot more than comments random people leave on a blog, positive or negative. I think for most people it’s impossible to separate the two–what you say online generally reflects some of your beliefs offline, but for some it’s easy to fool themselves into thinking that places they frequent online reflect their “real” world, when that’s pretty much impossible. When individuals you don’t know have the potential to severely affect your self-esteem, it’s time to turn off the computer! As my boyfriend would say, never let strangers raise your blood pressure. 🙂

I agree that there has been some misunderstanding. I’ve stated my views. If people want clarification–they can just ask. Ask me if I hate thin women–I said no. Ask me do I support thin women–yes…just not the ones that are fat phobic and internally sexist. I don’t support those types openly but I won’t anyone else talk sh*t about them either.

I’m a creative writer. That makes it hard to write about things in such a way that there’s no mistake of what I’m saying for some people. Sometimes I say that are philosophical and can be interpreted every which way. That’s the only excuse I can offer for why some women are reacting this way.

I think Jasmin clarified herself but in the process continued to throw her assumptions about my character this way. Same goes for islandgirl.

I see Stacey Dash as more “breezy” than Gabrielle Union, but it’s probably because she has such a unique quality to her voice. I think of my “breezy” friends as the ones who are always nice and friendly, unlike me. 😛 Almost the opposite of “feisty”, but I definitely don’t think it implies “airhead”.

One more thing, as a social advocate, I hope that you NEVER work with a teenage black girl who is bullied for being slim or any girl you deem as “priveledged”. If you do, I hope that you are able to keep personal issues out of it and don’t take things out on them but truly try to help them. I wasn’t going to address you anymore, but I am serious and thought that this is worth mentioning.

It is baffling to me that you refuse to address men (or women–I’ve specified that I’m talking about straight women, but I don’t know if you did) and romantic pursuits in your fatphobic and sexist rants, especially given that’s the context I and Islandgirl have been operating in, but it makes me uncomfortable for you that so many of your personal…issues (couldn’t think of a better word, sorry) are being put on display. Feel free to skip anything else I write.

I don’t believe in social work so I don’t think I would be working in that field. Social work is band aid solution that doesn’t really do anything to solve larger societal issues. I feel sorry for people who are caught up working in that system with no workable solution to the issues that cause skinny black girls to need that help anyway.

So social justice advocate [does not equal] working with thin teenage girls. I think about things on a more global scale.

Your I agree. The internet is the perfect outlet to air and project your frustruations onto strangers. I’m done with it. But I am very concerned of people in certain positions who have issues and are working with very fragile people. That is my only true concern.

Try not to worry too much. I have a degree in psychology (in 3 months!) and I’ve found it really easy to tell who’s bs-ing. There are a few people here who claim to have credentials they don’t have, and I do hope it’s just hot air, both for the reason you mentioned and because it’s illegal to offer services without a license. I don’t think you need a specific degree to contribute to discussions online, but misrepresenting information under the guise of being educated in that field is tacky at best. I’m hoping most people who frequent blogs know when to take things with a grain (or a handful) of salt.

I think you would be a great mentor for girls like that, especially those who are growing up in all-Black areas and face a unique brand of intraracial sexism. My best friend could use someone like you–I think she would make much better choices in men, that’s for sure.

I don’t really think that men are worth addressing when they write some of the things I’ve read in this post. If I did I would respond.

You keep saying that men perpetuate these issues and women shouldn’t make it about them. Isn’t that making men the center of the discussion when you suggest I should address them? I tried to leave them out of it and address the female-identified posters that I thought were presenting even more harmful attitudes. Forget the guys. The may not be able to be helped. I thought discussing issues with the women was a better idea because they might be more reasonable.

I’ll reiterate: As Natasha W has stated in the peacemaking attempts here your comments and views have been clarified. I’ll take you at your word if the one reasonable person posting says you’re okay.

In a way, I understand where Ms. Queenly is coming from. When you have a privileged group and an oppressed group, the oppressed folk may not be in the mood to hear how hard it is to be so privileged especially when they continually witness privilged folk taking advantage of said privilege.

Yes, here it’s mitigated. We’re talking about thin vs. non-thin (whether it’s “thick” or “fat”) women. Women, a group where individuals may have various privileges (race, cis-gender, sexuality, class) that are mitigated by not being privileged via gender. In a way, the argument is more heated because we’re talking about being able to gain access to resources that are not within our grasps but are held by others, by men. But anyway, let’s talk about the thin vs. non-thin woman debate.

Islandgirl, I understand what you’re saying (you’ve said it over and over again). It’s wrong to dog out and down non-thin women but it’s also wrong to dog out thin women to big-up non-thin women. And that there are myriad ways to praise women no matter WHAT their body type without overtly or covertly slamming another body type. This is where the whole discussion STARTED.

But then it veered into “suck it up, big girl” territory with folks accusing Queenly of being a bitter, and implied jealous, big girl. I can see her calling bullshit to that. She hears thin girls say “Hey, it’s not our fault that society privileges our body type so don’t hate on us” while watching them gather up all the thin privilege they can carry with both arms. Thick girls don’t see thin chicks turning down guys who are clearly prefering their body types. Thick girls don’t see thin women turning down jobs they got based on body type. It’s all well and good to accuse a “complainer” of being bitter and then condescendingly and patronizingly suggest that they go out there and cultivate a better “attitude” and then men would flock to them. After all, I’ve seen WW do the same with BW. I’ve seen light-skinned women do the same to dark-skinned women. It’s not that society is fukked up with all sorts of bullshit “categories” and “preferences” for people. It’s because you’re not trying hard enough fat/Black/dark girl!

As for unity of any sort, I don’t believe in unity at my expense. I will not engage in any sort of unity with anyone that results in me being thrown under the bus. I will not continually swallow my pain so that others can live well. I don’t believe in stifling conflict or pretending very real fault lines don’t exist.

Queenly is angry at a SYSTEM, not some particular cadre of thin girls. But it’s not her fault that she sees too many thin women playing right into that system to get what they want. The same system that degrades her.

And it’s not just about men (though I don’t see anyone, including myself, taking on celibacy in solidarity) or the media. Fat women get harassed all the time for daring to be fat and alive. Perfect strangers make comments and insults about their bodies in “quarterdeck whispers” and directly to the individual. People sneer, frown and scowl at them as if they were eye-pollution. People constantly mention this new diet or exercize system or weight-loss scheme. And when I say “people” I’m including perfect strangers offering their unsolicited $.02.

I’ve been the “skinny one” damn near my whole life. When I was in my 20s I was 95 lbs. In my thirties, I was up to 105. Believe me, I’ve heard every thin comment and dig imaginable, especially growing up in a Black community during the Brick House era. I was never a “36-24-36, what a winning hand.” But I could also shop and put whatever unhealthy, fattening, fried, creamed thing in my shopping cart and NOT have folks tsk-tsk me. I could eat as much as I wanted in public and order death-defying desserts without having to endure “Now, THAT is the LAST thing her ass needs to be eating!” When eating at buffet-type restaurants, I cannot tell you how many times my larger companions had me return to the buffet to get them second helpings of this or that or some dessert. They weren’t disabled. They just knew that if they went up there more than once, they’d have to deal with shitty-ass comments because they’ve dealt with them time and again. Even now, after I’ve gained a few pounds due to being older and the metabolism slowing down from tree-shrew rates, I have fatter friends send me into boutiques to check out if they have any clothes in their size because they just don’t feel like dealing with derisive sales staff. Even the digs I got, I caught the underlying envy underneath. I knew, even at a very early age, it was better to be too thin than too fat.

I’m sorry that you had those experiences. Kid’s can be so cruel but I hope you took those negative experiences to make you stronger.

Thank you, islandgirl. I know I am not overweight but there are not many women shaped the way I am here, so that is not seen as a good thing. Women shaped like you, for example, are considered attractive. So please understand I didn’t write about my experience to fish for compliments (I know I am not overweight and I know I’d probably be seen as average in your culture), but to present exactly that: cultural ideas about beauty vary, so there is not universal privilege when it comes to this. Even if thin women are often praised (and most men certainly don’t want their women to be fat) it doesn’t mean that a thin woman can’t have an ugly experience because hip hop videos “taught” men (and women?) in her community that a woman without a large butt is not attractive.

The LAST thing we need here (or anywhere) is oppression Olympics. OR women fighting over the issue men addressed (and then suspiciously ran away when discussion became feisty).

What I do know it’s impossible to be objective, and of course thin woman such as islandgirl has her own experience and problems, and a thick woman like Ms. Queenly her own. There’s nothing wrong in being subjective and personal, or defending issues or whatever you see as “your group”. But the thing is, seriously, women here didn’t start arguing before some men dropped that rubbish about thin women being unfeminine and what not.

Ms. Queenly,

Let me explain what I meant with “individual” approach. It has nothing to do with “don’t worry be happy”, and it’s certainly not about denying there are people with privileges. It’s about separating your own experience than the experience of your group, because they don’t have to match, and perhaps they should not match (even if they often do). There are people who don’t separate these two levels. But it is a bad thing. Because whatever is/was happening with group you consider your own doesn’t necessarily to be your reality.

“I think you would be a great mentor for girls like that, especially those who are growing up in all-Black areas and face a unique brand of intraracial sexism. My best friend could use someone like you–I think she would make much better choices in men, that’s for sure.”

Thank you!!! I really appreciate that. I am actually working with bullied kids for a non-profit group and will be responsible for their fb page. I am really excited about that!

Intrarcial sexism is very overlooked but must be addressed. And I think that ALL girls who have been teased or bullied should have an outlet, not just pc issues. I love to talk to girls like your best friend. Sometimes girls need someone who has been throught things that could offer a perspective. If I could help in any way, let me know.

As for an exercize in accepting unearned privilege. I know one of the reasons my husband found/finds me attractive is that I am relatively thin. He told me about how he thought from what I wrote on another site that I had to be 4’9″, weigh 300 lbs and have coke-bottle glasses. When he saw me walk towards him at the airport at 5’3″ (okay, that’s only MARGINALLY taller, but I’ll take it) and 95 lbs with no glasses, well his first thoughts were, “Oh, shit. I’m in trouble now.” He constantly tells me he thinks I’m gorgeous and sexy. He even says he likes my body better now even though I’m “fatter” because, before, I had NO muscle strength or tone. Even at 95 lbs, my knees hurt constantly. Now, I’m stronger and healthier and can do more stuff. But, I’m not fooling myself into thinking that if I were 300 lbs. he’d be attracted to me no matter how stunning my personality.

That would be great! I can’t help much, because we look different (obviously), but it’s best to catch people before their self-esteem is totally destroyed, otherwise they walk around just waiting for people to tear them down. Side note: I had a friend in high school who was very obese and had a reputation for being very loose. She would always offer sexual favors to guys–she figured that none of them would ever be interested in her anyway so she’s take whatever she could get. The irony was that some of those guys very well would’ve been interested in her as relationship material if she hadn’t put herself out there as something casual.) Similarly, I’ve had thin friends who’ve let their men put them down because they worry they’ll never find anyone else.

Thanks for the offer! My email is on my blog under “about me”, would you mind emailing me? I would be interested in directing her to your group’s page if that’s ok with you.

Yes, women should stick together at least in a way of not making everything about men, I agree. But the issue on who’s “hot” and who’s not (or anything regarded female beauty) is ALWAYS about men, because that’s why female beauty exists. If they didn’t care about thick vs thin we wouldn’t be having this kind of conversations here or in real life.

And yes, there are women who put down other women, but it’s also because of male attention (or lack thereof).

So I’d really love to see ladies moving to non-men related issues, but it’s obviously not easy (especially given the fact the post is about physical beauty and the author is known for his questionable attitude toward women).

Absoouluutely!!! I live for this kind of thing. I will email you tonight because I want to gather some other resources.

You are right, you have to catch it before it destroys self-esteem. You are much more informed than me on that because you are in school for this.

Sometimes, people are their own worst enemies and make choice based on how they are perceived.

You would also serve as a great role model to kids, especially young girls. But more so as someone to aspire to as opposed to those who have been oppressed. Congratulations on your degree! It’s a big accomplishment.

“Yes, women should stick together at least in a way of not making everything about men, I agree. But the issue on who’s “hot” and who’s not (or anything regarded female beauty) is ALWAYS about men, because that’s why female beauty exists. If they didn’t care about thick vs thin we wouldn’t be having this kind of conversations here or in real life.”

I agree. This is one issue that is mostly about men, directly and indirectly. So the conversation should focus more on them.

[…] Note: The following may offend some readers. My aim is to be truthful rather than politically correct. The view I express is my own (very male) point of view. If you prefer received doctrine on this subject, I refer you to the Wikipedia. Black women come from Africa. They have dark brown skin, thick lips, black woolly hair, high cheekbones, Egyptian almond-shaped eyes and a bottom that sticks out. Black women are the most beautiful women in the w … Read More […]

[…] Ain’t it a damn shame! Ms. Queenly Note: The following may offend some readers. My aim is to be truthful rather than politically correct. The view I express is my own (very male) point of view. If you prefer received doctrine on this subject, I refer you to the Wikipedia. Black women come from Africa. They have dark brown skin, thick lips, black woolly hair, high cheekbones, Egyptian almond-shaped eyes and a bottom that sticks out. Black women are the most beautiful women in the w … Read More […]

I’m very disappointed to witness once again that its true: There are women who put down other women. A lot of my reaction here is coming out of just being plain tired of women stabbing each other in the back for men or to defend their own images of themselves as “not bigoted” towards women that they have a one-up over. Then they pat each other on the back for being in the same club and everybody is bitter. The evidence is here.

Its the same kind of thing that Black feminists have been trying to get white feminists to understand for years. Just because you’re a feminist it doesn’t mean that we understand each other. And it cuts both ways–understood.

I think we just live in a culture where people don’t know how to be empathetic towards each other. They can’t even imagine what the other person’s life must be like. But they know how pretend to make themselves look good. True story.

And like I said, all of them strangely disappeared the moment it started getting feisty.

What else is new?

This is one issue that is mostly about men, directly and indirectly. So the conversation should focus more on them.

Natasha, it seems like women are reluctant to “place the blame” on men, but I have no idea why. Men are shallow. Most people, of both genders are, and we all have certain standards for whom we are attracted to (borne out of culture of course). The interesting thing about thin privilege is that it’s contingent on the actions of autonomous people, generally men. Thin women can’t make men be attracted to them, and they can’t stop it either. At this point, I would say that cultural issues are so ingrained that there will never be a time where thin (regular thin, not forced thin) will be subjugated under non-thinness. Just as I don’t think White women will ever be completely subjugated under non-Whiteness. The chances of the two ever being considered equal are slim. The chances of one trumping the other? Impossible.

But we are in a patriarchal society, and way too many people try to fight oppression under the gaze of patriarchy rather than realizing it’s part and parcel. Just like it’s easier (in our society) to blame the woman a man cheated with instead of taking him to task about his infidelity.

In general, people I encounter on blogs tend to be much bigger downers than people I know in real life. Not that people don’t notice or talk-about isms, it’s just that they don’t see them as individually deterministic. Seems like a crappy existence, but hey, what can you do?

In general, people I encounter on blogs tend to be much bigger downers than people I know in real life. Not that people don’t notice or talk-about isms, it’s just that they don’t see them as individually deterministic. Seems like a crappy existence, but hey, what can you do?

Its not being a “downer”, its called facing reality and not living on a cloud.

I foolishly thought that most white people were the ones I had to tie a string around their ankles and pull them back down to earth…

“Just as I don’t think White women will ever be completely subjugated under non-Whiteness. The chances of the two ever being considered equal are slim. The chances of one trumping the other? Impossible.”

Hmmm, I think a day will come soon when other women are close to equal. In my lifetime. Because you can already see a moving away from a praising of a “purely white” phenotype towards others.

“As for an exercize in accepting unearned privilege. I know one of the reasons my husband found/finds me attractive is that I am relatively thin… I’m not fooling myself into thinking that if I were 300 lbs. he’d.be attracted to me no matter how stunning my personality.”

Same. But mine isn’t unearned. I put in long, hard hours at the gym, thankyouverymuch. 😉

But would you have been interested in your husband if he were 300 lbs? I can’t say that I would have noticed my SO if he hadn’t met my (very lax!) criteria.

I have to agree partly with Ms. Queenly again. It’s not so much about being a Debbie Downer. It’s saying, “these have been MY experiences and they have partly shaped who I am today.” If your experiences have been different then you’d have a different outlook on life.

Like you said earlier, telling someone on a blog that all the men commenting how they like x-women-category-that-includes-you but you don’t get that treatment at all in 3-D is bullsh**. It’s the same with relating experiences. First, the only ones we can have a hope of relating accurately are our own. Second, if your experiences don’t jibe with mine, how is that helping me out?

It’s like reading on blogs about how all these BW have NEVER EVER had trouble attracting the men they wanted. Well, bully for them! But that has not been my experience at all. And all I can go by is what I’ve experienced. And yes, that has shaped me. For example, my views on dating? I’ll never do it again in this life. I don’t care HOW my marriage turns out, I am currently f***ing the last man I’m ever gonna. I remember what dating for me was like and NO EFFIN THANKS!

Now should I generalize my experiences to ALL BW? No. Just because I’ve had a rough road in the love/romance sphere (and I believe most of it had to do with me being a BW and being judged negatively for it) doesn’t mean each and every BW has. But that doesn’t mean that because some BW have had it easy-peasy in that area that ALL BW do and if they don’t, it’s because of some grotesque failing on their part. We’ve got to be able to consolidate all of our experiences without dismissing each others. For example, no, being a BW seeking love does not have to be a trial, but that doesn’t mean it’s all roses either. There are real issues out there that need to be addressed.

But no one’s generalizing experiences. Well I’m not certainly. If someone is determined to make it about them (and now I’m talking about you, Ms. Queenly–I told you I wasn’t interested in being a part of your mess anymore, can you just let it go?) then she’ll always get what she’s looking for. The conversation was never about “who had it worse” between thin and thick women; the conversation (when I entered) was about how bashing thin women was a generally unproductive strategy because it doesn’t change most men’s actions towards thin/thick women, and that’s what this is really about. Which is why it makes sense to take it up with men, “it” being their expressed preferences for thin women (which aren’t necessarily wrong) and why that visible preference (demonstrated via actions) doesn’t match their stated preferences for thick women. I’m not understanding how “stop talking negatively about thin women” (which is what Island girl originally said) equals some kind of slam against thick women. The word “thick” isn’t even in that sentence.

I’ll be blunt: unless you can point out somewhere in this thread, Ms. Queenly, where someone insulted thick women, then you should STFU. If you have grievances against people who have insulted thick women (outside the context of this blog), by all means share them and your response. But putting those words in the mouths of people who never said them is stupid. I don’t think you are a “thin hater”, I think you just have misplaced anger. It would be interesting to explore why you conflate “people who don’t support thin-bashing” with “people who hate thick women”. Could it be that you are used to seeing the two paired so much that now you just assume?

I would say “downers”, by my definition, are people who do generalize experiences–their negative ones–to other people. Like Black women who say all Black women are destined to die alone, like they will, because there are no good Black men/no non-Black man wants them. And any woman who disagrees must be light-skinned with long hair or otherwise extraordinarily beautiful to believe otherwise. That seems like a case of misery loving company to me, and it does Black women (in this case) no good to buy into the hype and suggest others do it too. That’s the kind of example I was thinking of in that comment.

I agree, I just don’t think there will ever be a time in the US (in my lifetime) in which White women will be at the “bottom of the barrel” (not that they should be, but even as the demographics of the country change I don’t think White women will be stereotyped as ugly as a group as other groups are/have been).

No one is saying that she or anyone doesn’t have the right to feel downtrodden, but I refuse to coddle someone with this type of attitude. She has been lashing, bashing and scapegoating and found perfect subjects to project her frustrations, insecurities and anger onto.

Why all the anger? Because I made a simple statement that you don’t have to degrade a group (in this case thin) to uplift another (thick). If someone has a problem with someone not wanted to be disrespected and degraded, they have issues.

Sure, everyone has their experiences, but people HANDLE them differently. I was bullied and abused ENDLESSLY by thick women in school for being thin. Do I go onto random blogs and attack thick women because they refuse to be disrespected. No, I do not.

Mira has been teased for being thick. Did she go off into a crazed tangent and then post on her blog with the title calling people a-holes. No, she didn’t.

I think Jasmin is absolutely right in her assessment of being a downer. She took something that was a totally acceptable stance, don’t degrade thin women, and spinned it to comfort and satisfy her insecurites. Period.

Also, Witchsistah, didn’t you comment on my comment at Y’s regarding OkCupid? If so, I think I see your issue that you raised regarding dating.

Witchsistah–> Black women should be “light and breezy?” WTF does that mean? We should resemble a dryer sheet or fabric softener?

I can’t believe someone actually said that and other folks actually discussed it.<I refuse to even entertain the notion that Black women should be “light and breezy” much less have a discussion with someone who think they should.<I think the problem is that everyone has their own defintion. But I think it is a woman with effortless or inherernt feminity but also a traditionally pretty woman. Maybe the opposite of an earthy feminine woman.<<

Why is "earthy" the opposite of "traditionally pretty?" WHOSE tradition?

Certainly not the African-American tradition, which has always been "deep and earthy" as opposed to "light and breezy." Part of that is history–"light and breezy" is hard for a slave to maintain, but "deep and earthy" can weather the storm and still be comforting. To be "light and breezy" requires a carefree environment that a black woman might have–but I certainly would not expect, presume, or require her to have.

I can't think of any black woman of significant achievement who is "light and breezy." Nikki Giovanni? Nope. I would certainly rather my own daughter number in the "deep and earthy" ranks of Nikki Giovanni than aiming to be a Cover Girl.

And that's why I objected to Charles Menelik's assertion that black women should be "light and breezy" in order to get mates.

Witchsistah–> Black women should be “light and breezy?” WTF does that mean? We should resemble a dryer sheet or fabric softener?

I can’t believe someone actually said that and other folks actually discussed it.<I refuse to even entertain the notion that Black women should be “light and breezy” much less have a discussion with someone who think they should.<I think the problem is that everyone has their own defintion. But I think it is a woman with effortless or inherernt feminity but also a traditionally pretty woman. Maybe the opposite of an earthy feminine woman.<<

Why is "earthy" the opposite of "traditionally pretty?" WHOSE tradition?

Certainly not the African-American tradition, which has always been "deep and earthy" as opposed to "light and breezy." Part of that is history–"light and breezy" is hard for a slave to maintain, but "deep and earthy" can weather the storm and still be comforting. To be "light and breezy" requires a degree of a carefree environment that a black woman might have–but I certainly would not expect, presume, or require her to have.

And that's why I objected to Charles Menelik's assertion that black women should be "light and breezy."

Witchsistah–
Black women should be “light and breezy?” WTF does that mean? We should resemble a dryer sheet or fabric softener?

I can’t believe someone actually said that and other folks actually discussed it.

I was the only person who took issue with it, besides you.

Ms. Queenly–
I refuse to even entertain the notion that Black women should be “light and breezy” much less have a discussion with someone who think they should.

RDKirk–
Okay! Then that’s three of us!

Islandgirl–
I think the problem is that everyone has their own defintion. But I think it is a woman with effortless or inherernt feminity but also a traditionally pretty woman. Maybe the opposite of an earthy feminine woman.<<

Certainly not the African-American tradition, which has always been "deep and earthy" as opposed to "light and breezy." Part of that is history–"light and breezy" is hard for a slave to maintain, but "deep and earthy" can weather the storm and still be comforting. To be "light and breezy" requires a degree of a carefree environment that a black woman might have–but I certainly would not expect, presume, or require her to have.

And that's why I objected to Charles Menelik's assertion that black women should be "light and breezy."

Sure, everyone has their experiences, but people HANDLE them differently.

People handle their ish differently at different times in their lives. It’s up to the individual to wrestle with that. But I think it’s very limited what we can suggest, tell or dictate to another about how to handle any situation.

For example, Natasha has said that she’s had great luck in approaching men very casually with a simple compliment or comment (and no, I’m not implying or trying to imply that she went chasing men down or pushing up on them). Whenever I tried that in my youth, I was always humiliated. If I were lucky, the guy simply didn’t take the hint. If I were unlucky…well, I’d rather not go into that.

Plus I’m INTJ, the first part of that meaning introverted. It’s just not in my nature to go having random conversations with strangers. The few times I’ve done it I’ve either worked up a butt-ton of courage to do so or I was in a devil-may-care mood that day and didn’t really put much import into the response I got. Hell, I have to rest and basically be left alone after a few hours of interaction with others, especially strangers. I den very easily as it is my natural state.

Also, in order to be able to flirt you have to have some confidence in your own attractiveness. Notice, I’m not mentioning anything about how OTHERS perceive you. A person who likes to flirt believe they hold some attractiveness to the person they’re flirting with. Maybe they think they’re drop-dead gorgeous. Maybe they think they have such a winning, sparkling personality that people would be seduced by that. Maybe they hit them numbaz and now have a huge bankroll. Who knows? But they feel they have something about themselves that the object of their affections would find tempting.

If you feel that you’re never the one “they” wanted, that “they” desired. If you’re always the odd wo/man out and you are NOT confident in your ability to attract then you’re probably not going to go around trying to flirt with people. For you, that would be an exercise in futility. I’ve never even made apprentice in flirting, forget mastering it because I saw it as a futile pursuit. Plus, INTJs don’t do flirting well. Our way of flirting is to talk to you about things that interest us or ask you a ton of questions about some aspect of yourself that we find fascinating. Therefore, I wouldn’t have gone up to a man and complimented his pants unless I really liked said pants and even then I would have spoken to him only to find out where he bought said pants. In other words, if an INTJ talks to you for a length of time, that means we like you (mostly because you can compete with all the cool thoughts going on in our heads).

But that isn’t what most men recognize as flirting. And since I suck at what most men do recognize as flirting and I’ve gotten such crappy results, I’ll abstain from flirting. That’s not me saying flirting sucks or is bad.

When I post stuff like this I’m not saying, “This is what happens to BW in the dating sphere” as if saying this is what happens to ALL BW. I’m saying this has happened to me numerous times so it’s not outside of the realms of possibility. Obviously many other BW have not dealt with any of this and they run the gamut of Black womanhood in skin-color, height, weight, body type, hair texture, length and age.

Like Jasmin stated about how Debbie Downers try to spread their cloud over EVERYONE (i.e. “I ain’t found a decent man, and I believe me being a BW consitutes a great part of why. Therefore NO BW will ever find a decent man.”), I’ve seen many BW try to dismiss those of us who’ve not been as fortunate in many realms when we simply say, “I’ve not had it that good,” and not generalizing our experiences to the whole. We’re dismissed as being Debbie Downers. We’re dismissed as jealous haters. We’re obviously somehow defective or else our experiences would reflect theirs.

I’ve seen many BW try to dismiss those of us who’ve not been as fortunate in many realms when we simply say, “I’ve not had it that good,” and not generalizing our experiences to the whole. We’re dismissed as being Debbie Downers. We’re dismissed as jealous haters. We’re obviously somehow defective or else our experiences would reflect theirs.

I think this is true, but hasn’t happened here (in the context of Ms. Queenly, at least; I’m not trying to assume that you aren’t speaking generally–just sayin’). No woman in this conversation mentioned not having it good, a man (who still is nowhere to be found :-P) made a statement that put down thin women and praised thick women. Originally, the conversation wasn’t about any type of privilege, it was about “pot, meet kettle”.

Like Islandgirl I was confused about all of the anger (not from you, obviously), because it seemed like all she said is that, “I prefer thick women.” would suffice. That didn’t change the meaning of the paragraph, it just made it less hypocritical (and in my opinion, more genuine, because I generally find people who put down one group to uplift another on some ish that I’m not willing to cosign, like Black women who feel the need to bring up Black men when discussing their relationships with White men). But, I’m willing to chalk up initial anger to a misunderstanding, since no one here said anything bad about thick women. (I personally have said mostly bad things about men, particularly men who use a certain type of woman as their “PC” cause but still flock to the “crunchy granola White women”, as you put it. :-P) But after that, if people refuse to read what’s in front of them, I assume it’s a personal issue and throw my hands up. Different people have different triggers, and it can be hard for some to just say, “My bad, I thought you were saying X (for whatever background reason) when you really said Y.” I personally am much more interested in the layers behind men saying they want X but going after Y, because it reminds me of conversations we’ve had about Black women, interracial dating, and the Internet but I think that’s just me. 😛

As to what you mentioned about dating (waves at a fellow INTJ and laughs at the story about the pants), it would be weird if someone called you a jealous hater for saying your experience. I think people get the hater label (at least from me), when they try to assign some agenda to my reporting of my experience, as if my mere existence means I’m rubbing it in their face. That’s mostly happened in the context of my relationship, with some people on the whole, “You think you all that ‘cuz your man’s White” tip. My response to that is generally, “No, you must think I’m all that if you felt the need to point it out.” Obviously you didn’t interpret Natasha’s comment as some kind of backhanded slam, as most secure people would do, I think. But I’ve found people who act in the way I mentioned above are generally trying to imply that I’ve gotten something “too good” for me, because I’m too black or too…something.

islandgirl and Psychology-Degree-in-three-months–I’m through with that. You can only ask that at least one person gets it and that third party (Witchsistah) has come in and pleaded my case at length. If the skinny girls want their club go ‘head.

The nerve–asking me to go back and point something out to you. Consult you psychology book or your personal e-mails. And STFU. 🙂

I have to say this. You know, I understand that it is not nice to put down thin women to uplift thick ones but I have a problem with where this discussion is going. One minute you are saying that it is wrong to put down thin women, but then more than a few times, big people were referred to here as being “ugly”. You guys said that men will praise thick women, but still date only thin ones. Well, my attitude is this. You want people to have compassion and fairness towards the thin women but it seems many of you thin women lack compassion and understanding towards the thick women. I mean that was cruel to say that most men who profess to like thick women “secretly” desire thin women and only choose thin women. And then you say “take it up with these men, not us” For one thing that is not always true. I know many men who are married to thicker women. And many of these women were thick when the men first met them. You had to know this would hurt thick women, many who desire to be loved and appreciate by some men just like any other women. I am not saying there isn’t any truth to it sometimes, but it shows a clear lack of sensitivity towards thick women. You say you support all women, regardless of size. Well, act like it. Sometimes it is not what you say but how you say it.

Another thing. I noticed that women that were considered “light and breezy” by some of you guys were often very lightskinned women while the “earthy” types were darkskinned. The lightskinned women were called “traditionally pretty” while the darker ones were not. Come on now!! Dark or light, feminine is feminine. And lightskinned women are no more traditionally pretty than darkskinned women. I just had to say it. And I have to agree that this discussion about “light and breezy” is kind of weird. I guess it is all a matter of opinion. The only thing I hated about the discussion was when RDKirk insinuated that black women were never “light and breezy” ( even though “light and breezy” does remind me of an hair commercial”). It sounded like an insult to me. Once again the topic is back on what black women are or what they can’t be. It gets on by nerves!I know RDKirk later tried to cover up what he said by giving us a long definition of what “light and breezy” is, but it it still sounds like he is reinforcing stereotypes to me.

You did well to specify that the black women have almond eyes. Too many people believe that the black women have the round eyes. The black people of the Diaspora believe wrongly that the round eyes are an african inheritance.

And who is thin and who isn’t is nowhere written in stone. I mentioned this on a post on physical attractiveness on another site, but rating appearance depends not just on what genetics gave you, but where and when you are. You could be deemed rail thin in one location, but move to a new town and suddenly you’re a lard-a** and haven’t gained pound one. Just like, in your little hometown, you were the prettiest girl, the one all the boys (and most of their dads) wanted. But you decide to move your pretty self to Hollywood and realize you don’t even make their K-list. Like being the valedictorian of your class and then going to a college where EVERYONE was their class’ valedictorian.

I’ve experienced that with “pretty.” I pretty much felt butt-ugly my whole life. It was odd, because when I looked in the mirror, I didn’t see anything that horrible or disfiguring about me. But I continued to get the ugly girl treatment including being in emotionally abusive relationships because that’s all I thought I could get.

Then I move to where I live now, meet a great guy after vowing I’d just give up the whole dating/sex/romance chase and just be asexual (to me celibacy implied you still had sexual desires, you were just not acting on them. I wanted to KILL those desires in me once and for all) for the rest of my life. He takes me around to meet the people important to him and they all sayto me almost to a person, “Ohmigawd! YOU’RE GORGEOUS!”

I didn’t and still don’t know how to respond to that because my whole life had been about me being treated as though I were anything BUT gorgeous or even mildly attractive. I wasn’t gorgeous in any of the cities I’d lived in or visited, but now, suddenly, here I was fine. Same with weight. Where I live now, I could gain a few pounds (and did) and still be well within the realm of thinness. Probably, in my city of origin, I would now be fat even though before, when I lived there, I was deemed painfully skinny.

Yes, because all of the posts above are littered with “I hate fat gurlz.” 🙄

I wish you the best on your journey to self-acceptance, since that’s the only thing you can control–don’t bother me again (or I might have to send the Thin Police!) 😛

Jeri,

Who said that? I said the men who are the loudest about specifically preferring thick women often end up with thin ones (see my example about weaves), which shows hypocrisy on their part. I personally think it’s wrong and wonder why thick women don’t call out the men who do that (just as Black women call out White men who go on and on about how they’d date a Black woman “if they could ever find a good one”–it’s bull). It has nothing to do with secret desire (I don’t think); it’s that men say a lot of things they don’t mean. I’m generally skeptical of the loudest of the bunch, because their lip service doesn’t match their actions (once again, lots of similarities with interracial dating between Black women and White men). Generally, I don’t think thick women should trust men who claim they “prefer thick women” until they see whether their actions bear that out–are they talking Beyonce thick (which is still thin) or regular woman thick (without the photoshop)? I’d compare that to some Black women worshipping at the feet of any White guy who puts “like” and “Black woman” in the same sentence, but I think you get the picture.

Like I said, people read what they want to read–miss me with that mess.

Moving on, did anyone catch the end of a Tyra Show rerun today? This 22-year-old had no hair around the edges from using too much glue and weaves, and Tyra tried to console her by saying that Black men know better than to touch Black women’s hair anyway! I thought that was useless advice–it’s not like it made the girl feel better about the way she looked, and I didn’t know people still publicly touted that stereotype. I thought only women with weaves/extensions didn’t let men touch their hair since they could take out the tracks or something? (I’ve never had a weave, so I don’t know how much manipulation they can take.)

I am going to say it again. All men don’t marry skinny women. All men don’t want skinny women. And all men aren’t hypocrytes. That is what I am saying. Many men do want a thicker frame and are not into very thin women. Many of the married couples and long-term couples that I know involve thicker women. Every man doesn’t worship very thin women. It is a fact. If you are so confident with being thin, knowing that some men like thicker women shouldn’t be a problem with you. I know many men like thin women and it doesn’t bother me. Once again, I am going to say that if you want people to respect your feelings about how you are treated, you should do the same. That is all I am saying!!

Who in the world said anything about anyone being ugly? I don’t call people that and haven’t seen anyone else call people that in these posts. Like I’ve over and over, nothing against thick women, but I will not be a scapegoat for someone else. That is what this entire discussion is about.

It’s very aggrivating when people point out things, but other people can say whatever they want without being held accountable because they are relatable to that person.

And the claws come out.

I know that you’re referring to my comment about “light and breezy”. You are reading into it what you want to read into it. I said before that Gabriel Union and Chilli are light and breezy. Two dark skinned women.

Gabrille Union in my opinion, is traditionally pretty as well as Chilli.

Listed Jill Scott and Eryka Badu as earthy both women who are similiar to MY skin color.

And I don’t think Ms. Queenly is trying to absolve men of their part in the whole matter, including the so-and-sos who brought up the whole thick vs. thin debate here in the first place. I’m sure she’s well familiar with how men view big women including the whole deal of men who claim to love them some big girls always mysteriously ending up with thin ones (just like the old, WM who always has some “BW that got away” story that has led him to appreciate if not prefer BW but invariably somehow always ends up marrying a WW).

But she’s looking at her fellow women and asking them to investigate THEIR parts in this whole beauty mess. She could go to men and harangue them about their hypocrisy all day, but it doesn’t help her cause to have her fellow sorrors backstab her as well and scooping up thin privilege like it’s double fudge ice cream (and no, I’m not implying that anyone here is doing that. I’m talking in general life terms). It’s like trying to get folks to treat BW as human beings knowing that there are always BW who will happily play to stereotypes to get ahead which makes it harder for the rest of us to resist doing that. Just like we look at casternation at those two BP who literally cooned it up at a recent Republican throw-down complete with donning slave garb and performing because we know that makes it harder for the rest of us to resist that (“Well, they did it and didn’t suffer any psychological damage, so you can do it too, n*88er!”).

Queenly knows if more thin women resisted this bias there’d be less of it coming from men (who would learn that they wouldn’t be able to get away from that). Also because no one is going to listen to a non-thin woman about this issue because she’s automatically “jealous,” “evil,” “bitter” and a “thin woman hater.” Same as Whites not listening to PoC about racism because we’re all “biased” and “have an axe to grind” or a “chip on our shoulder.” Same as men don’t listen to women about sexism because we’re all “irrational” and “over-emotional” and “governed by our hormones.” Same as straights don’t listen to gays about homophobia because they’re obviously “pushing some sort of gay agenda.” When the people with the privilege start standing up and saying, “This is some harmful bulls&*t, and I’m not going to accept it anymore,” is when folks take notice and if enough participate, change is made.

I said the men who are the loudest about specifically preferring thick women often end up with thin ones (see my example about weaves), which shows hypocrisy on their part.

Logic says that “men who are the loudest about specifically preferring thick women” != all men. Preferring thick women isn’t crazy or weird or any more or less special than preferring thin women, I just don’t think stating a preference (for any kind of woman) trumps acting on a preference.

If you’ve never met a man who said one thing and did another, than good for you. But I am pretty sure you are a bit older than me and there are plenty of guys in my age group who claim to like “thick” women then turn around and say all kinds of horrible things about “fatties” (their word, not mine)–and these women aren’t even fat! (Not that you should call fat people “fatties”; I think you get what I mean.) I think it’s unfortunate that some women (in my age group at least) get all of this lip service when guys are trying to make a point about how they “couldn’t possibly” discriminate against a group of women, but no real action. When these guys say “thick”, they mean a size 6 or lower. So actual “thick” women are still getting screwed. The only reason they say this is to give themselves a pat on the back for being so open-minded, when their actions (and what they say when no thick women are around) are anything but.

Once again, I am going to say that if you want people to respect your feelings about how you are treated, you should do the same.

I don’t need respect (or any kind of emotion really) from people I don’t know. I am asking you to read what I say and address that when you address my comments rather than making sh*t up. If you want me to respond to what you say, comment on what I said, which didn’t include the word “all” for one.

I just want to know who called someone ugly. Please back that up with proof. Or is this sensationalizing?

I’ve found that people are sooo sensitive to certain things that they pounce on something sometimes without reason.

No one is saying that all women marry thin women. Obviously, would be ridculous. But some men are hypocritical and the louder they protest something, a lot of times it’s to cover their true feelings. For example, there is a saying about militant black men who are so strong in their stance but end up with white women. For some, their over the top opinions were only to hide their true feeling toward the very person they claim to protest.

That’s all that that comment was about.

The thing that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is that there has been a lot of projection onto someone who they feel represents their “hot button”. I am kind to anyone who is kind to me, but like I said, I’m not going to stand for or people like me to be degraded or disrespected in any way.

“But she’s looking at her fellow women and asking them to investigate THEIR parts in this whole beauty mess. She could go to men and harangue them about their hypocrisy all day, but it doesn’t help her cause to have her fellow sorrors backstab her as well and scooping up thin privilege like it’s double fudge ice cream (and no, I’m not implying that anyone here is doing that. I’m talking in general life terms).”

No one here has denied thin privilege. I wrote a freaking blog post about it and linked it (I didn’t think it’d be appropriate to copy/paste the whole thing here). That conversation can’t happen though if there’s some stupid, “You said this!” “Um, no I didn’t” “Yes, you did!” “Um, no where?”, “Ha, as if you can’t see it!” (and so on) mess going on. At this point, I believe it’s not even about that, it’s about looking for an opportunity to lash out (as Islandgirl said), because the ish was done way upthread and some of us were ready to move on. I think an attempt was made to tie the conversation about thin-bashing to a conversation about thin privilege, but that didn’t work because no one combatted thin bashing with thick bashing. From what I saw, it seemed like, “How dare you get mad that someone say something bad about you, given your privilege?” which is a statement I disagree with. Just like White people can get mad at people who call them names even though some Black people probably get called worse names and those names (definitely) more power. No one started a petition for a “Thin Appreciation Day” or anything–I’m not understanding (I’m not attributing this view to you) how Islandgirl challenging Sam’s putdown of thin women implied some bashing of thick women.

Look I understand what you are saying! You are saying that some men are pc when it comes to thicker women. They say one thing and do another. Then they often call women who are not fat, “fatties” . I understand. I still say that only applies to some men. Some men do desire thick women. Not very big women, but not very thin women either. I know quite a few men who are like that and the women they are with are slightly on the heavy side. Also, I don’t think that it is always about being pc. Some men really want a thicker women, but they care too much about what other men think. We live in a society that worships thin women. Some men are simply embarrassed to say they like a thicker women but when they are alone and on the internet, they expresss their true feelings. It is not always about being “politically correct”

I know, aren’t you confused? I didn’t think the attractiveness of thick women entered the conversation–I remember a discussion of what “thick” means, but that’s it(?). All of this “reading between the lines” seems reminiscent of a conspiracy theorist! 🙂

For example, there is a saying about militant black men who are so strong in their stance but end up with white women.

That’s a good example–noting the hypocrisy doesn’t mean that all militant Black men act this way, just that their actions are ironic (in a sad way).

I’m not going to stand for or people like me to be degraded or disrespected in any way.

And you shouldn’t have to. Honestly, I don’t care if people say “thin women say this” and “thin women do that”–unless they indicate, I’ll assume they don’t mean “all” because typing qualifiers is tedious. But you can’t say, “Islandgirl said this or that” without backing it up and talking about that, not what someone who shares a characteristic with Islandgirl (in this case, thinness) said or did. Just like being annoyed at the overweight woman who cut me off in the cafeteria yesterday doesn’t give me the right to snap at every overweight woman I see about her “latent greediness”.

Only sort-of related to this topic: I’ve noticed that sometimes Black women fail to be critical consumers, especially when it comes to men–Natasha mentioned something similar upthread. (We aren’t the only ones, but that’s not important.) Why are we expected to take any crumbs of affection, even if the person doling them out would do 10x better by someone they *really* wanted? Saying some men do X, Y, Z doesn’t make all men bad, but it’s something we have to watch out for, just as we watch out for guys who are just looking for sex (if that’s not your thing), cheaters and the like. If we don’t want to say anything for fear that the man in question will disappear, then deep down we know he’s not worth it in the first place.

“I never said you did call someone ugly. But I know what I read!! I read more than a few times, bigger people were referred to as ugly or not attractive.”

Then your reading something into it and that is really on you because you want another talking point to latch to. I never even once thought of thick or overweight as being ugly. I would never even imply that someone else is ugly. I’m not even going to allow someone to imply that about me. Like I said, what is REALLY going on? Think about it.

Also, did my “light and breezy” explaination satisfy you? Now you see that your assessment was incorrect. Again, reading into what suits an agenda.

You mentioned what Jasmin said. About hypocrisy. About how black men who say they like black women often marry white women. They are just patronizing black women because they want to sound like they are down for black women when they are not. Yes I understand. But I mentioned earlier, it is hard to know who is being pc or not. One thing I know about men, especially when it comes to sex, is that a man is not going to say he is sexually attracted to women, and say it loudly over and over again, while feeling something else entirely. If a man says he likes a big butt, big breast, small waist, big thighes, but not a woman who is too big, more than likely he means it!!Since when does a man lie about his sexual preferences!! ( unless he is gay) I am going to say it again. Some men like a very thin women and other men like a thicker women.

Didn’t you see where I didn’t say all men? I said there are “plenty” in my age group–that doesn’t even imply a certain proportion.

Some men really want a thicker women, but they care too much about what other men think.

I don’t approve of that either. A man who cares what other men think to the point of dogging a girl he’s supposed to like is a boy, not a man. Would we say it was OK if we were talking about non-Black men and Black women?

I don’t think you are doing it on purpose, but you are countering arguments I never made. Like I mentioned upthread, it may be that you are so used to hearing people say things a certain way that you just assume instead of reading what I wrote. You have yet to contradict anything I actually said–there’s no need to phrase it like you did. I agree with your paragraph, except for the words “all”, “always”, and the like, since I didn’t use those.

I think you think I’m implying that men who say they are into thick women are making it up or faking somehow, yes?

That’s not what I think. I think the conflict between thin women and thick women is driven in part by men like that. I think men who prefer thick women are just regular guys–they don’t make a point about “hating” thin women, they just go after their preference, thick women. If everyone operated by those rules, things would be a lot simpler, actually. People wouldn’t worry about being rejected based on someone else’s preferences; if you (general you) didn’t like someone (based on your preference), you just wouldn’t approach him. You wouldn’t feel the need to say something negative about him, as so many people seem to do. That’s what fuels the problem (in part).

Also, I think it’s the opposite. I think men will readily admit that they like thick women. They are reluctant to SAY that they are attracted to thin women because it simply is not PC. Like Mario Lopez claims all day long that he likes thick women, but every woman he dates have all been thin. He doesn’t want to offend or alienate a majority of his audience.

Since you brought it up, we (general we in this thread) could censor this person with you if you were to be specific. I’m not saying call someone out for the sake of calling him out (maybe paraphrase?), but I can’t disagree (tangibly, not just hypothetically) with something I didn’t read.

If a man says he likes a big butt, big breast, small waist, big thighes, but not a woman who is too big, more than likely he means it!

We’ve mentioned before that standard is just as narrow (and impossible to attain) as the standard for thin women. I don’t think it’s better or worse, just a reflection of society. And I have heard men say that and still mean a relatively thin woman: me (I have curves on a small frame). Mostly because they have the impossible standard you mentioned above and still want a woman with a flat stomach. That’s pretty hard to attain! I know one woman who said she met that standard, and she’s a size 8, still much smaller than the average US woman (a 14). I think there are men who mean it for sure, but they aren’t just limiting themselves to women who look like video girls, just like non-Black men who claim to truly be interested in Black women don’t just limit themselves to Halle and Beyonce.

You know what. I understand what you are saying. I agree that people shouldn’t put down other people based on their preferences. I NEVER said I disagreed with you on that. I am just saying that the conversation was getting a litle twisted. It was starting to become too “pro thin” and a little insensitive towards thicker and darker women!

was there anything significantly different about city A and city B that contributed to the difference?

The only thing I can think of is regionality. I was born and raised in Chicago. I moved to Phoenix. Now I live in a smaller Midwestern city that is way more Midwest/Southern than Chicago. Most of the folks who live here are from here, not transplants like in Phoenix. Also, Phx is sunnier. In sun belts, more emphasis is placed on the body and on showing skin and therefore more stringent requirements for showing said skin.

Where I live now, there are people raising beef cattle within an hour’s drive from my house. Food producing locales seem to expect people to pack a few extra pounds.

I didn’t read it as pro-thin, but I can see why you felt that way because the conversation dragged on for so long! It could’ve taken 5 minutes if it had gone like this:

“Thick women are so hot, because thin women look like boys.”

“It’s not nice to put down thin women to uplift thick women, why not just state the first half of the sentence?”

“My bad. Thick women are so hot.”

The end. 🙂

At one point it seemed like, pro-thin was equated to “anything positive stated about thin people”, which was ironic because the person talking about thick women was the one who felt the need to mention thinness at all. Kind of like when White people mention the race of someone non-White in a sentence (about a stereotype or something) and then want to ask “why’d you have to make it about race?” 🙂

LOL! You know what, not saying you, but at this point, I’m not going to say anything because I see that sometimes my word are twisted (not meaning that you would do that). Maybe I will address it over at Y’s were the conversation is a bit more civil.

Jeri,

Who said anything about or was insensitive to dark skinned people now?!

Well I never said that the majority of women look like Bria Myles, Buffie the body, or Meylissa Ford! Or could even attain that figure. I mean I know some women who are like that ( many who are in my family actually). But most women, even quite a few black women, are nothing like that. So I never said it was easy to look like that. And to say that these women are still considered small is not always true. Bria Myles is not a size 8. I think she is a size 12. At least in terms of her pants size. So once again, these women are far from thin. But I agree. Most women are no Bria Myles. I think it is unfair to expect all women to look like this. But many men still want a slightly larger women whether she looks identical to Bria or not. They say they want something “to hold onto” . But I think that a large number of men want thin women and I never said they didn’t. But some men want a SLIGHTLY larger women and they are not being pc. They mean it.

I wasn’t talking about Kenya being a size 8–I was talking about a non-celeb.

But some men want a SLIGHTLY larger women and they are not being pc. They mean it.

I already agreed with you about this(?).

As a general rule, I question the motives of men who put down one group in favor of it’s opposite. That goes for Black men who say they prefer light-skinned women because dark-skinned women are so _________, White men who say they prefer Asian women because Black women are so ___________, and men who say they prefer thick women because thin women are ______. In each case, it has nothing to do with my subjective rating of the attractiveness of the group in question–I wouldn’t like it if light-skinned and dark skinned were reversed, even though I’m dark-skinned. It has to do with my suspecting that there’s an ulterior motive. For some people, maybe not (I’ve never met one, but I’m sure at least one exists), but I won’t take that chance. 🙂

I didn’t say small, I said smaller than the average woman. Even at a 12, Bria is still smaller, by a little bit. It’d be interesting to figure out whether there is a female celebrity who is above the average size for women in the US. Maybe Monique, but I can’t think of another.

Well, I personally don’t think a woman has to be slightly larger to have curves.I see thin women with curves alot. I am just saying what other people think. Since the promotion of the “video girl” some women who have a very specific shape are being praised. Some are thin and some are a little on the thick size like Toccara. So when people often say curvy, they assume that you have to be on the heavier side to have curves. But I agree with you. Many thin women are curvy. Look, all I am saying is that there are all kinds of men out there. Some like them thin, some a little on the thick side, and a few like them on the very large side. That is all. I am not trying to turn this into a competition between thin women and larger women. It was you guys who said that men who like thicker women were mostly hyprocrytical. I know you didn’t say all men. But I don’t understand why that conversation was so important in the first place. Why go through the changes to imply that thick women aren’t desired, even when some men say they are. Why not just keep it on the subject on how it is wrong to put down one women in favor of another. It seems to me you guys were starting to put down thicker women, rather you realize it or not.

That was definitely not the intention. The focus wasn’t on the men in that they “proved” that thick women were unattractive, it was that they should be called out on their bs because there’s nothing “unusual” about liking thicker women, and for women who are unsatisfied with their relationship prospects, they should put their money where their mouth is. As I mentioned way upthread, if the conversation is about dating/marriage, men need to be the focus (for straight women, presumably not interested in dating one another–we don’t care what each other think). If it’s thin privilege in general–a different story–then it’s not just about men.

I really would like for you to back up your claims about me, and I know that you meant me because you quoted SOME of my statement, being insensitive or saying something negative about dark skinned people.

If I’m going to be accused of something, I would at least like proof and the accusors claims to be backed up. I will respectfully say that I really don’t like someone putting words into my mouth to suit their agendas.

Each time I’ve asked so far, no response. Because I think you know exactly what you’re doing. I’m just being honest.

Calling out hypocrisy isn’t necessarily self-congratulatory, but I think it’s easy for bigger women (not necessarily anyone here) to go on the defensive to protect themselves, if they’ve had to in the past. When talking about larger women and men who lie, I was thinking of friends of mine who are good enough to be the “great friend” of a guy but never good enough to be the girlfriend. Obviously, the assumption is that the guy is scum, not that the girl is unattractive.

You said you question the motives of those who put down one women in favor of another. I do also. Well, I think that people often do this to hurt people, maybe because they have been hurt. For instance, I love curly hair on a man. But if I said that thin hair was ugly and go on and on about it, I am clearly trying to get on someone nerves. People have ulterior motives all the time. And it is usually to hurt people in order to make themselves feel superior!

For the record, other people turned it into a “you must hate bigger women” conversation under a completely different pretext than the one you are operating in now. That’s what happens when people deliberately fan the fire and others jump in without fully understanding the situation.

Look, you want me to say it then I will say. For a minute, it seemed like you were saying that the “light and breezy” were light, with straight hair, for the most part, and the “earthy feminine” were darker, thicker or with tightly coiled hair. I get the impression that other people agree with me because they mentioned it also. All I am saying that people are very sensitive to color issues, especially on this particular website.

I don’t know if Jeri agrees with anything I’ve ever said here, and frankly, I don’t care. But what I will say is this: she, along with sister Y, reflects the light ‘n’ breezy femininity I referred to above. She clearly has a persona capable of discussing all manner of subjects, and disagreeing with whoever, in an inherently respectful fashion.

There is no ‘bash mode’ in this sister’s defensive armour therefore open conflict does not become her for it is stereotypically unlady-like. Sure, women of this description can blow a casket if you get on the wrong side of them (look at my babe, Serena Williams for evidence of this!) but they remain overwhelmingly intelligent, conscious, cute and feminine (as does Serena).

These are the sorts of educated Black women who’ll absolutely no real problem finding a partner (especially if they’re attractive) but they may have to kiss a few frogs before they get the right man.

Maybe your intentions were not to hurt anyone. I may have overreacted. But I wouldn’t be surprised if others might feel the same way. I don’t think your intentions was to hurt anyone. Maybe you just feel the way you feel and you have a right to your opinion. But people can be very sensitive to the color subject. I could be wrong.

But, that is what happens. People totally disregarded Gabriel Union and Chilli being included in “light and breezy” and Jill Scott and Eyrka Badu and saw what they wanted to see. They see a commentor who may preceive as light, who included some light women in a group and took that and ran with it. That is really the issue.

I understand people are sensitive to things.

My question is, what is wrong with earthy, anyways? How is that negative?

Jeri,

What is really the issue, here? Think about that. And please don’t pick everything that I say apart and apply it to fit your stance. I am open to discussion, but it just seems like there are too many personal things that are clouding people’s opinions and reason.

This thread certainly hasn’t been a positive one. But I think that if we are truly open to discuss without agendas and negative personal baggage attached, we could prove people wrong who say black women do not get along.lol

“Maybe your intentions were not to hurt anyone. I may have overreacted. But I wouldn’t be surprised if others might feel the same way. I don’t think your intentions was to hurt anyone. Maybe you just feel the way you feel and you have a right to your opinion. But people can be very sensitive to the color subject. I could be wrong.”

No my intentions were not to hurt anyone at all. I know that I’m the antheisis of Melenik Charles as he does not care for light skinned women, but that doesn’t affect me at all. I just let him have his opinion without taking issue. He’s praised dark women many times, and I could have gotten upset, “why do you always think dark women are attractive, ect”. But no, I think it’s great! Just as long as he doesn’t put down lighter women in the process.

But islandgirl, all is not equal or symetrical in society. If it were, we wouldn’t be having these discussions about privilege and oppression. It’s easier (and I’m not saying it’s fun or easy period) to write off/ignore/not care about someone not preferring your “type” when you know that society privileges your “type” and that you can easily find suitors elsewhere. But if your “type” is vilified, denigrated and besmirched regularly/continually and this is done in deed as well as in word, then you’re going to be a bit more sensitive to folks not preferring your “type” because it has greater import for you. You may figure that there aren’t many men out there who do prefer you or would even give you a chance.

If its not about men its going to become about some problem that you personally have.

You’re wasting your breath so to speak.

Witchsistah said:

And I don’t think Ms. Queenly is trying to absolve men of their part in the whole matter, including the so-and-sos who brought up the whole thick vs. thin debate here in the first place. I’m sure she’s well familiar with how men view big women including the whole deal of men who claim to love them some big girls always mysteriously ending up with thin ones (just like the old, WM who always has some “BW that got away” story that has led him to appreciate if not prefer BW but invariably somehow always ends up marrying a WW).

Thank you. Some women are so quick to blame men for all their problems that they fail to look at themselves as part of the equation and therefore part of the problem.

If thin women would stop sucking up their privilege long enough to realize that somebody is paying the price for that privilege then we can at least start from there.

But she’s looking at her fellow women and asking them to investigate THEIR parts in this whole beauty mess. She could go to men and harangue them about their hypocrisy all day, but it doesn’t help her cause to have her fellow sorrors backstab her as well and scooping up thin privilege like it’s double fudge ice cream (and no, I’m not implying that anyone here is doing that. I’m talking in general life terms). It’s like trying to get folks to treat BW as human beings knowing that there are always BW who will happily play to stereotypes to get ahead which makes it harder for the rest of us to resist doing that. Just like we look at casternation at those two BP who literally cooned it up at a recent Republican throw-down complete with donning slave garb and performing because we know that makes it harder for the rest of us to resist that (“Well, they did it and didn’t suffer any psychological damage, so you can do it too, n*88er!”).

The conversation today on this blog in this post have proved that men are not women’s only problem. Its very 2nd Wave (white heterosexist) Feminist to think so.

Queenly knows if more thin women resisted this bias there’d be less of it coming from men (who would learn that they wouldn’t be able to get away from that). Also because no one is going to listen to a non-thin woman about this issue because she’s automatically “jealous,” “evil,” “bitter” and a “thin woman hater.” Same as Whites not listening to PoC about racism because we’re all “biased” and “have an axe to grind” or a “chip on our shoulder.” Same as men don’t listen to women about sexism because we’re all “irrational” and “over-emotional” and “governed by our hormones.” Same as straights don’t listen to gays about homophobia because they’re obviously “pushing some sort of gay agenda.” When the people with the privilege start standing up and saying, “This is some harmful bulls&*t, and I’m not going to accept it anymore,” is when folks take notice and if enough participate, change is made.

Again–perfectly said. When enough people stand in solidarity change will happen.

Well, since islandgirl wanted to call me out on this, I add just this one piece to this conversation/debate/mess:

Now I’m a man almost fifty years old. I’ve traveled around the world. I’ve met people from all walks of life, rich and poor, powerful and the ones without anything. I’ve met all kinds of people, all kinds of people whom I call my friends. I have friends who are thin, thick, black, white, bi-sexuals, gays, straights, religious and atheists and heathens. Some are activists and some are truly non-political. Some have given all they got for common good, some have taken everything they could. That gives you little perspective on many things.

Be that in Nigeria, in Thailand, Germany, USA, Italy or Scandinavia, the slim woman is touted as the right one as a beauty standard. I have never ever seen an womens magazine article, a fashion show, an advertisement, or anything like that which says thin women are ugly. That may be your personal experience, but if we talk about the system here, then it is a fact that thick is not the one the whole industry is embracing. Rap videos a side, overwhelming majority of the whole media wants the women on the thin side. That is an absolute fact.

Now, I have had realtionships with all kinds of women. Like I said before, I get interested about the personality, not body parts. My former wife, with whom I still have a very good relationship, was not thin. She was athletic body type, little on the thick side. But I did not want to marry her because she looked certain way. I married her because she was a great person.

Most of the women I have had have been on the fuller side just because I just happen to like that type of women. But I have had a relationship with extremely thin woman as well. So for me, personally, it is not so much about the looks as it is about the person. I know it is hard for you and some younger women here to understand that somebody could make their choices because of the personality rather than good looks, but that is the reality. There are men who do that. Maybe not among those men you know, but still, here we are, men who like women with personality.

Then, once more, a clarification on this thick vs. thin subject: like I said, which you and Jasmine chose to ignore completely in your heated comments, I had a friend kill herself just because she was not thin enough, because she thoughed that she was too fat. I have a female friend who has been fighting bulimia for two decades now. Her health has gone by now pretty much. She also thinks that she’s fat even though she is by all standards slim. I’ve seen, while working in a childrens daycare center way back in early 90’s, how five, six year old little girls were put on a diet because their mothers and some scumbag doctors doomed them to be fat. That, ladies, is something very very sick in my eyes. And that, ladies, is because our societies admire the thin so much. That is why I feel so strongly about this issue.

This brings us to my opinion about what is going on in the fashion industry. Well, like I said, I have gay friends who have worked on this field a stylists and make up artists. I have friends who are photographers. I have friends who have been working in womens magazines and fitness magazines for years and years. I have some friends who are models, professional models. These people have told me the things I told you and for some reason you got all worked up for that. I’ll repeat what they have told me about the ideal body type in the fashion industry, at least based on their experience.

First, two porfessional models who have walked the catwalks in NYC, Paris and Milan. They told me, I repeat, THEY told me that most clothes are bought by middle aged hetero women and that is the reason why we see women on the catwalk. That if it was not so, there would be sixteen year old boys instead of women. They, female models, also said that everybody inside the business knows this. The reason is that majority of the fashion designers are gay men and their ideal body type is slim fit young male. Again, this is what they told to me and I have no reason to not believe this.

One gay friend who worked in Hollywood for quite few years told me about the obsession about body fat, fat in general, thin and slim, about the strangest diets and plastick surgeries which are used every day just to stay thin. I spear you the details but it is pretty sick out there. But this is nothing new. You know how the famous opera singer Maria Callas stayed thin? She swallowed worms, you know, the parasites. They sucked so much energy out of her body that she stayed nicely thin. And that was way back in the 60’s, before the real craze we are living right now!

There is a whole multi billion dollar industry just because Thin is In. There are nutrient supplements, drugs, zumbas, personal trainers and life coaches, selfhelp gurus and what have you, just because Thin is In. You can’t deny this. If you do, you must be delusional. It is all over the world. Just open your eyes! You wonder why it is so?? Billions of dollars!!!

But now it is no more enough just to be thin. You have to be fit too. You must have less and less body fat, even though it is against the very nature of female physics. If a womans body fat ratio drops too low, she will lose her periods. That will result with other very serious difficulties. Ask any ballet dancer about ostheoporosis.

Why is this? Why it is so that women must fight against their very own biology, against their own bodies? Why women should deny themselves and be something different alltogether? What is this? Personal thing? A private thing? No. It is big business.

You blame men. Right, men own tv-stations and media houses and so on, but let me tell you why. They just want to make money. If thick would be in, that would be all over the media because they would make money on that. That is what these “men” think about fashion, style, womens beauty: money. They are not into fashion, style, womens personal crap. They are there to make money. It does not matter a hoot to them what is in, what women look like or anything. They just want their money. Period. You know, the bottom line. They don’t care the colors of this fall, the waist line or any of that bullsh. They just want the money.

You then tried put the blame on me, a normal guy who just happen to like more fuller women. But I asked you to show me a single straight guy who was running a single womens magazine. There are none. They are all run and lead by women. Women editors, women fashion designers, women stylists, women as models, women as customers etcetc. I might add also the gays in the business, but let’s keep it about women shall we. And this brings us to Ms Queenly.

Seldom I have seen such attack on anyone anywhere, and just because she did not agree with you in a flat second. And when she wondered, rightly so, were the womens unity was, you just kept on going at her. And you went personal at once too. Why is that islandgirl? Why is that Jasmin? What is going on in your lives when you feel so insecure that when somebody is not agreeing with you, you come out with this fury?

I tried to explain myself before few times, but you either did not read those or ignored what I said. I have no idea why. It seems to me that your behavior on this subject speaks at volumes what is wrong in womens lives today. Such insecurity despite of being closer the beauty ideal of today than most of the women tells a lot.

To me it is one more sign that women really should get together and get rid of the monster that is called “fashion industry” or “beauty industry”. And yes, that includes those damned rap videos too. They bugg you too! You are insecure about your looks too even though you are much closer the ideal.

And on this note, I end this discussion from my part. When no amount of apologies, clarifications, explanations make any difference, why say anything? I think Menelik was right on that way up earlier.

I think I am one of those people who used word “ugly” and “fat” in the same sentence. It’s not because I believe overweight people are ugly. It’s because I believe they are usually seen as such, which is a horrible thing. It did happen a lot of times to me that I couldn’t understand why a thin woman is praised for her beauty (even though she had, say, large nose and too broad shoulders (nothing wrong with that per se, but these are things that are not conventionally attractive for a woman), while a thicker woman with a beautiful face was ignored or assaulted, humiliated and treated like less than human (in ways Witchsistah described). Similarly, I often don’t udnerstand why white women are seen as the prettiest and why some (usually white) men can’t even tell a black woman (who is stunning) is beautiful.

So no, I’d never call overweight people ugly. It is not how I think.

But it’s how societies work (at least yours and mine), and let’s not pretend it isn’t so. It doesn’t mean it SHOULD be like this, but it’s unfair to pretend it’s not like that and to make it look like thick women are making this up (or black women, etc.)

(And btw, no, I don’t think anybody here said that, to a particular poster or thick women in general).

Seldom I have seen such attack on anyone anywhere, and just because she did not agree with you in a flat second. And when Ms Queenly wondered were the women’s unity was, you just kept on going at her. And you got personal too. Why is that islandgirl? Why is that Jasmin? What is going on in your lives when you feel so insecure that when somebody is not in agreement, you come out with such fury?

2) I tried to explain myself before few times, but you either did not read those or ignored what I said. I have no idea why. It seems to me that your behavior on this subject speaks at volumes what is wrong in women’s lives today. Such insecurity, despite being closer to the beauty ideal, says a lot.

3) to me it is one more sign that women really should get together and get rid of the monster that is the “fashion industry” or “beauty industry”. And yes, that includes those damned rap videos too. They bug you too!

4) and on this note, I end this discussion when no amount of apologies, clarifications, explanations make any difference! Why say anything? I think Menelik was right on that way up earlier.

Menelik replies:

despite the several question you asked of certain people here, I hope they at least stay on-point, and answer respectively, and NOT in their usual accusatory manner. One can only hope.

Of course people are subjective! It’s impossible not to be, especially when it comes to something that deeply concerns you personally or your group. There’s nothing wrong with that

So while I do think Ms. Queenly reacted the way she did because (I assume?) she is a thick woman, and while I do think islandgirl reacted the way she did because she is thin (but was abused because of it), and just like any of us reacted the way we do because we are who we are and we have certain experiences, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

Now, Jasmin is right: none of us should care what people online say… Heck, nobody should care what people say or what they think about us in real life, especially people that don’t know or don’t care about us. Stick to your family and your true friends. Other people’s opinion should not matter that much to you.

And who is thin and who isn’t is nowhere written in stone. … You could be deemed rail thin in one location, but move to a new town and suddenly you’re a lard-a** and haven’t gained pound one.

This is true. And this is very important for everybody to remember. I’ve seen this happening (a good friend of mine, who was considered fat in my culture was seen as thin in the US- no joke here), and hey, I am even seeing that here, with women Abagond and some of the guys are praising as beautiful that would never be considered as such in my culture).

But the “thin is better” meme is obvious. I guess there are cultures that praise thick women, but due to globalization there are less and less of them. This doesn’t mean I think islandgirl’s experience wasn’t traumatic because she is thin. If she she grew up in a place and among people who don’t think thin women are attractive, the fact fashion industry and Hollywood promotes thin women as the hottest didn’t matter at all (just like it didn’t mater at all to me that, say, black men in America like thick women).

So in this sense, it is disrespectful to think her (or somebody else’s) experience was not traumatic just because they belong to a privileged group. (And when we’re at it, remember that just because somebody is male, white, heterosexual etc. doesn’t mean his experience can’t be traumatic).

However (just like with the WASP guy example), it is important to remember that a certain PRIVILEGE exists (in this case thin privilege), that it is not a good thing (not because of thinness itself- thick privilege would be a bad thing as well), and that people should be aware of that and fight that.

As far as I can tell, all women on this page agreed on that long before this “fight” started. The only point was that nobody should talk trash about thin women in order to appreciate thick! (And it can go beyond thin vs thick- nobody should talk trash about black men in order to like white men, nobody should talk trash about other religions in order to appreciate his own, etc. etc. )

“For example, Natasha has said that she’s had great luck in approaching men very casually with a simple compliment or comment (and no, I’m not implying or trying to imply that she went chasing men down or pushing up on them). Whenever I tried that in my youth, I was always humiliated. If I were lucky, the guy simply didn’t take the hint. If I were unlucky…well, I’d rather not go into that.”

I have, but this is only recently, like within the past couple of years (And I don’t see it as “approaching,” because it’s pretty much the way I would initiate a friendship with anyone, even a woman). For most of my youth I never thought of talking to guys first because (a) I was extremely shy and (b) they (mostly black guys) would approach me.

“Plus I’m INTJ, the first part of that meaning introverted. It’s just not in my nature to go having random conversations with strangers.”

I thought I mentioned on that other post: I’m INxJ too. And a strong introvert; I enjoy my own company more than anyone else’s. But I’m also friendly and like to learn about people, so I creep out of my shell sometimes (especially if the “people” = attractive guy…). I was a tour guide and an undergrad admissions assistant in college, so I have a lot of experience “turning it on” for strange people. With anxious students and critical parents, you have to. Now it just comes naturally, but it isn’t my default personality.

“Also, in order to be able to flirt you have to have some confidence in your own attractiveness. Notice, I’m not mentioning anything about how OTHERS perceive you. A person who likes to flirt believe they hold some attractiveness to the person they’re flirting with.”

True enough. But I would say it is directly due to how I am perceived; I would have no clue otherwise.

“…Therefore, I wouldn’t have gone up to a man and complimented his pants unless I really liked said pants and even then I would have spoken to him only to find out where he bought said pants.”

However, that doesn’t make it any less important to call out hypocrisy at least from the loudest hypocrists (because they do talk the loudest and are the first to start with character defacement). Two or three people have called them out now. Personally, I just view it as practice for dealing with people in real life who act like this. And I need the practice.

As far as I can tell, all women on this page agreed on that long before this “fight” started. The only point was that nobody should talk trash about thin women in order to appreciate thick! (And it can go beyond thin vs thick- nobody should talk trash about black men in order to like white men, nobody should talk trash about other religions in order to appreciate his own, etc. etc. )

I agree with you that this was the point for certain individuals. And I agree with that point. Not only was the point well worded but poorly expressed.

There were several things that kept coming across in the way things are summed up and I think others would partly agree:

1. Its all men’s fault.
2. Heterosexual women don’t care about what other women think. (which is obviously a lie)
3. I’m thin and I’m the victim here.
4. If you’re not happy, its your fault.
5. [not verbatim] Oh I see what’s going on here. You’re overwight, so you prefer thick women (Albeit, the female poster was attacked first, I thought this was a rude and horribly bigoted thing to say even if she felt he deserved it. Then instead of addressing her, the “thin club” supported her because the person she said this to was a male. When I said I thought it was rude, she automatically got defensive and her friends decided I wasn’t on her side for criticizing her. Just because she’s a woman, that doesn’t make what she said right. I was trying to hold her accountable).
6. Did I mention, “I’m thin and I’m the victim here? Men are trying to use me to hurt big women and fattys hate me?”
7. A thin-identified woman tried to offer me advice on how to be happy in life while suggesting that my attitude was the problem. I politely called bulls**t. Its like a white woman telling me to adjust my attitude after saying racism exists but there’s nothing I can do about it but try to be individually happy. I care more about myself and about other people than to give into that line of individualistic thinking. The last thing plus-size women need is thin women telling them what they should do and what they should think–even if they are giving that advice with the best of intentions. I thought the advice was unrealistic in my life and my thinking was, “That is the advice you, a thin woman, would be giving me, isn’t it *rolls eyes* Very typical”. I’ve heard it before. Its usually always a thin woman trying to offer her 2 cents. Even if its with the best intentions, but I don’t really place much value in those.

Honestly, I’m happy that two people noticed I was being attacked. I’ve been in situations where nobody said a word. If nobody has anything else to say about the situation, I, for one, would like to move on. Next topic.

Something has to change fundamentally in how we view race, size/weight, and gender. It won’t happen overnight. I would prefer sweeping change, but oftentimes change is something that happens gradually everyday whether we notice it or not, if it happens at all.

I’ll write about it on my blog (and I’m writing something to be entered into an anthology for WoC): I have hypothyrodism (I was diagnosed in elementary school); my family has a history of high blood pressure and diabetes on both sides of my family; I may even have endometriosis which I am going to the doctor to be checked for. I do not have diabetes or high blood pressure but hypothyroidism has been a very painful life experience for me also being a Black working class female. I was born Black. I was born female. I was born with hypothyroidism–I didn’t ask for it.

Some people say, “Oh well I’ve earned my thin privilege–I work out several times a week at the gym”. We all operate in a system where people believe that everyone with weight on them is a slob, eats too much, don’t excercise, don’t eat right, like Twinkies. Any of those things could be true, but what people also fail to realize is that the Thin Craze is about aesthetics, a socially imposed standard of beauty that you either conform too or don’t conform to. I go to the gym and burn it up with my mom and my sister almost every other day: shedding a few pounds is not going to solve the problem for some people. Those same people don’t want be to tolerated and accepted–they want to be embraced for who they are. Its a dream, but usually things start with a dream. It may never be achieved in my lifetime, but I want more people in the future to have that embrace.

I suppose you are referring to my comment with your last paragraph, Ms. Queenly?

Well, that is not what I meant. I was just referring to the “unearned” aspect as it was likening being somewhat thin to being black or of African descent or white or of European descent. Some people are naturally thin, but some (most) are not. Implying that it is the same as being born a certain ethnicity is a poor analogy, at best. I never made the assumption that overweight people eat too much or that they are sedentary and I did not imply either.

You are so one sided here. You say that we attacked her but look at the things she’s said and her blog. She is the one that’s insecure because I’ve never called anyone an a-hole. That’s a personal attack, defined. She is the one who attached this to her blog, called us names and went off like a rabid dog. She has serious issues about this topic. That is all I will say about her.

“Then, once more, a clarification on this thick vs. thin subject: like I said, which you and Jasmine chose to ignore completely in your heated comments, I had a friend kill herself just because she was not thin enough, because she thoughed that she was too fat. ”

And in all of your insults and heated debate you chose to ignore when I said that I was teased, bullied and abused endlessly by thick, insecure women. And I had another friend who took dangerous hormone medicine to gain curves. But I guess because we’re thin, our pain means nothing.

I didn’t take the time to read all that you’ve written, but I will say that until you have a daughter who is one of the “priveledged” thin who is teased and bullied for it everyday at school, you won’t even begin to try to understand. Or will it not matter because she is so “priveledged”?

Though I don’t agree with FG at times, take note of what he said, “For the record, Islandgirl, I loooove thin women”! Period. End of story. Didn’t have to degrade thick women one bit.

“So while I do think Ms. Queenly reacted the way she did because (I assume?) she is a thick woman, and while I do think islandgirl reacted the way she did because she is thin (but was abused because of it), and just like any of us reacted the way we do because we are who we are and we have certain experiences, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.”

Agreed!

For those who really want to open their minds and not just remain in the comfort zone of putting others down the deem priveldged, below are excellent examples of what I’ve been saying.

I think some people’s views are skewed because some “skinny whatever’s” refused to be degraded and disrespected and voiced their opinions. But if the situation were reversed and the exact same words and tones were used, it wouldn’t matter. We still love to villianize those we deem as priviledged. For getting that we are all black women and all have our struggles. It’s ashamed.

If I was accusing you of anything, I’d say it outright. Please don’t misunderstand. Your comment made me think of this, but I wasn’t accusing you of having those thoughts about non-thin people.

I’m not comparing the race and weight exclusively. I’m just saying that its a bigger issue than people making a decision to lose weight or conforming, which I think you know. I was trying to get at the fact that people scapegoat their hate, preferences, and phobia on health issues rather than admitting its mostly an issue of aesthetics. Some people do have health issues but the craze in America is not so much really about health as it is about certain beauty standards.

In addition, I’m just saying that I get a similiar feeling inside when well-intentioned thin women try to give plus-size women advice about their lives that I get when bigoted white women try to give me life advice on race. I’m not saying the two situations are the same or analogous.

I was going for less of an analogy and more of a description of a sensation I get when this happens. So again, I am not saying trying to say the two things are the same. As a Black non-thin woman, those two situations give me similar sensations.

If you are so into thick women, why bring thin women into it? I wasn’t personally offended, it just sounded disingenuous to me. Have you approached a thick woman with, “Hey baby, I want to date you because thin women are so _______?” Would you like it if a Black woman approached you with, “Hey Sam, I’m so into you because Black men are so ______?” Your focus is still on thin women, and it sounds like you want to justify yourself. People who are flattered by insulting other people generally have low self-esteem, but hey, whatever works for you.

I didn’t say sh*t about models and magazines. PSA for everyone who can’t read (apparently): for the last time, miss me with that mess

As far as I can tell, all women on this page agreed on that long before this “fight” started. The only point was that nobody should talk trash about thin women in order to appreciate thick! (And it can go beyond thin vs thick- nobody should talk trash about black men in order to like white men, nobody should talk trash about other religions in order to appreciate his own, etc. etc. )

I’m not sure why people are disagreeing with that, especially since no alternatives have been offered. Hence the whole “chip on the shoulder” bit. Oppression doesn’t preclude one from being an a**hole, and people can think you are an a**hole for reasons other than the one for which you are oppressed. So thinking that an individual Black person is [insert negative characteristic] can be due to their personality, attitude, behavior, etc., not just that their Black. Sounds like a case for Captain Obvious, but I guess not?

“This doesn’t mean I think islandgirl’s experience wasn’t traumatic because she is thin. If she she grew up in a place and among people who don’t think thin women are attractive, the fact fashion industry and Hollywood promotes thin women as the hottest didn’t matter at all (just like it didn’t mater at all to me that, say, black men in America like thick women).

So in this sense, it is disrespectful to think her (or somebody else’s) experience was not traumatic just because they belong to a privileged group. (And when we’re at it, remember that just because somebody is male, white, heterosexual etc. doesn’t mean his experience can’t be traumatic).”

Also true.:)

The non profit, anti-bullying group in which I volunteer is where my efforts and energy are better suited so that thin girls, thick girls, short girls, tall girls,pretty girls, unpopular ones, priveledged and not privledged and all in between do not have to go through what I went through. And so that they will not have to have the issues that I see in a lot of adults and will not displace insecurities and anger onto others.

A thin-identified woman tried to offer me advice on how to be happy in life while suggesting that my attitude was the problem.

Who did that? I said it’s counterproductive for people to use group statistics to guide their lives (should Black women resign themselves to a life of loneliness since so many of us are predicted to never get married?), but “people” != “you”, in case you’re mistaken.

I think this was an excellent point:

If I was accusing you of anything, I’d say it outright. Please don’t misunderstand. Your comment made me think of this, but I wasn’t accusing you of having those thoughts about non-thin people.

I believe you feel several general comments in this thread were directed at you. Unless your name was at the top of the page (like now), they were not (speaking for myself). Half of my comments in this thread aren’t even about thick/thin specifically, but I digress. Subtle isn’t my style; if I’m talking about you, I’ll let you know. If I don’t directly address you and you assume I’m talking about you anyway, hey, you’re within your rights to do so.

Good comments! When people are attacked, they have the right to defend themselves. Lol, people act like you started passing out thin acceptance pamphlets or something. Like I said upthread, it could’ve been over in two seconds if Sam had said, “My bad, unnecessary” and moved on. I’m still not sure what models and such have to do with anything. So since some Black people are in jail, all Black people should be labelled criminals? Yes, according to Sam’s logic (since some women are unnaturally skinny and famous, all skinny women deserve to be degraded). Don’t young kids say something like, “Don’t start none, won’t be none?” LOL!

In American society today, the very best thing to be is slender, white, heterosexual, wealthy, young, Anglo, handsome, and male.

That is not to say that there are no social niches where any one of those characteristics is disadvantageous. But anyone who has some or all of those characteristics will find broader areas where they have advantages than disadvantages.

Islandgirl, if that is your picture and you’re thin, girl you are fine. I don’t disregard that you may have been in a niche where your thinness was a disadvantage…but it was a NICHE…it was not general society. There is such a thing as emaciated, and only a weird niche likes the look emaciation because it’s indicative of lives nobody wants to live, but I doubt you were emaciated.

Without a doubt, women over a certain weight are disrespected for their weight by most of the world–by the peak and the whole right side of the bell curve. That is a greater disadvantage.

Anyone remember that old Curtiss Mayfield song: “If you had a choice of colors, which one would you pick?” As Louis CK said, “White people are not better…but BEING white is CLEARLY better.” And Louis CK goes further to say that any white person who claims otherwise is an a-hole.

I’m a heterosexual male. In this society, being male affords certain privileges (although I could argue that from back in the apartheid days, being a black male pretty much negated them except in the niche of the black society that existed at the time). There are niches in which being male is disadvantageous. There are niches in which being a heterosexual male is disadvantageous (there were two “Ugly Betty” episodes on just that issue).

It would be absurd, however, to say that in this society being a heterosexual male is a BAD thing. Ninety-nine point 44/100 percent of the time, being male and heterosexual in this society is better than being a lesbian.

And if a lesbian points that out, what does it serve for me to bring up the 0.66 percent of the time that it’s not?

Someone degrades thin people or “priveldged”(me) and continues with that media nonsense. They have deep issues and displace it to someone who they feel is the “media ideal”, which is silly.

Then people with their own issues and insecurities rally around that person (thick or “unpriveledged”) because they see their OWN issues in that person. Not realizing or wanting to realize that THAT person is actually the one that is harsh in their language.

Then the person who is “not priveledged” uses empathy to lure people in and they give into. Because what could a tall, thin, lighter skinned girl possibly know about pain and why does she deserve our empathy? Even though she’s been attacked, so what? She’s thin. Life for her is wine and roses.

This is the same cycle I’ve seen with what Jasmin and I have experienced, in my opinion. We’re seen as privledged so we should just keep our mouths shut and take the abuse. In school, I did just sit there and take it, but not now.

And that is what is happening here. End of story.

We’ve been accused her of being a fatphobe, hetersexist. I’ve been accused of being color struck (lol because that is not further from the truth), ect. Why? Because that is what people want to believe and that what they want to project.

There are some sensible people who though they have had their own problems, are reasonable enough to see this for it really is. The others are so clouded with their insecurities that they really could care less.

But no one said, “It sucks to be fat (in our society).” If someone did, most people would probably agree–some of us did upthread. Someone said, “Thin people suck (paraphrase).” Replying, “Thin people don’t suck and it’s not nice to say so” has nothing to do with fat people. Like Islandgirl, I think people are conflating this conversation with others they’ve had elsewhere, which is fine, but don’t go on some “you people” kick when “you people” never said such a thing.

To add, no one was playing Oppression Olympics. Islandgirl basically said oppression doesn’t give you the right to be a jerk–that’s just another form of coddling. How condescending is it for me to say, “Oh you poor fat people, lash out! I know you probably hate yourselves anyway.”

The idea of respecting people is based out of treating them equally in individual situations, not coddling them like children. Have you ever seen that episode of Moesha where Moesha gets in some guys face because she thinks he’s faking his interest in Kim? Would she have thought that if it were Neicy? Even though she thought she was trying to be a good friend, she was really disrespecting her by showing that she thought Kim’s size was a disadvantage.

That seems like what some people are (perhaps unintentionally) advocating–treat fat people with kid gloves because their life sucks. I have some fat friends (and disabled friends and gay friends) who would kick my arse if I ever suggested doing that! 🙂

Then the person who is “not priveledged” uses empathy to lure people in and they give into. Because what could a tall, thin, lighter skinned girl possibly know about pain and why does she deserve our empathy? Even though she’s been attacked, so what? She’s thin. Life for her is wine and roses.

I’m wondering if there is ANY way we can bring up privilege, especially privilege amongst oppressed groups that does not lead to this? Is there any way to say that “yes, colorism DOES exist in the world and everyday people ACTIVELY keep it alive and well” without it turning into picking-on-light-skinned-folks day or being accused of it? Is there any way to say that “fatphobia does exist and is real” without it being a “gang up on the thin chicks” rally or being accused of being a bitter, fat bi88h?

Islandgirl,

I also took offense to your “easy,breezy” and “earthy” lists because there WAS a definite pattern there. Most of the “easy, breezy” women on your list were light-skinned and mixed race. Most of the “earthy” women (and that list was much shorter) were darker-skinned and presented with naptural hair. Adding a dark girl to the former and a light one to the latter list seems like tokenism. Notice, I didn’t not call you colorstruck. Just like there is a difference between saying someone did something racist is not the same as calling them a racist, saying those lists were problematic, to say the least, is NOT the same as calling you colorstruck.

And yes, I do have a problem with dark-skinned, kinky-haired, Afrotypic women automatically being relegated to the “earthy” role. First off, why in hell should we be relegated to ANY category especially those that erroneously relate our characters to our appearance. Secondly, “earthy” is relegated as being below the “easy,breezy” label. That makes is sound like dark-skinned BW are some type of Noble Savage, digging in the dirt, conjurin’ ish and puttin’ roots on people, like we’re all some Tia Dalmas. Well, I ain’t “of de ert” no matter if you can’t see me in the dark unless I smile and my hair defies any comb to come near it.

You may not have meant ish by it, but how many times have many of us lectured WP about making their “intentions” the whole story and not the results or the fact that they’re not doing this ish in a vacuum. That there is a real context to their actions and they need to take those into account. It’s the same with other privileged groups. I have het privilege. I’ve got to understand that how I treat gay folks is not about me, but I am part of a weft and web of a homophobic society and my actions are performed in that context. You’ve got to understand you have light-skinned privilege and how your actions function in that context.

And now you can accuse me of being mentally deficient, jealous and the hater of light-skinned women and the murderer of their dreams.

I’m wondering if there is ANY way we can bring up privilege, especially privilege amongst oppressed groups that does not lead to this? Is there any way to say that “yes, colorism DOES exist in the world and everyday people ACTIVELY keep it alive and well” without it turning into picking-on-light-skinned-folks day or being accused of it? Is there any way to say that “fatphobia does exist and is real” without it being a “gang up on the thin chicks” rally or being accused of being a bitter, fat bi88h?

I keep hoping, but the situation isn’t turning around.

My sister and I are fraternal twins (Gemini, yay). I wrote a little about it on my on own blog, but we are also two different skin tones. I am labeled as “light skinned” and my sister is labeled “darker skinned”. I see the way people treat her and, um, how interesting it is when we stand next to each other. My sister just told me today that she and my mama are always telling me to put their dishes in the sink because I’m “like the house slave”. She was joking but our differences in skin tone and character always seem to come up like that and its worse in public.

Yes, that is a pic of me. Thanks. I don’t think I was in a “niche” per se.

Witchsistah,

If you took offense to my “easy, breezy comment, then I’m sorry, that is really your issue. Several people responded and some even gave blondes as examples, but yet you keep focusing on me.

The fact that you were so offended by this to me is very silly. First, who said earthy was a negative thing? I thought of earthy as warm and natural (I think Anglina Jolie is earthy). But you took this and skewed it to fit your agenda and cause.

“That makes is sound like dark-skinned BW are some type of Noble Savage, digging in the dirt, conjurin’ ish and puttin’ roots on people, like we’re all some Tia Dalmas. Well, I ain’t “of de ert” no matter if you can’t see me in the dark unless I smile and my hair defies any comb to come near it.”

Witchsistah,

Really? Come on! You read all of that into a list that included BOTH groups on BOTH lists? This rant is beyond silly and I will not entertain that with an explaination.

The truth is I really don’t owe you any explaination as to who I think is “light and breezy” or “earthy”. I could put 20 lighter skinned women and the Chiquita Bananna lady mascot in the that list. What difference does it make? The fact that you decided “light and breezy” to be positive and “earthy” is somehow negative is on you. That wasn’t my view. I am conscious of people’s feelings, but I’m not going to walk on egg shells to protect people’s fragile esteem and protect insecurities that have nothing to do with me. I didn’t say anything wrong and you know it.

Then you comment to me on another blog saying how easy it is for me to date and find mates because I’m light skinned with curly hair. I understand that has been an issue for you, that explains why you took an innocent comment that I made and turned this – “of Noble Savage, digging in the dirt, conjurin’ ish and puttin’ roots on people, like we’re all some Tia Dalmas. Well, I ain’t “of de ert”. But one, because you THINK that I have an easy time (even though you don’t know me or my experiences), don’t make me a scapegoat for that. Also, I know PLENTY of dark skinned women who enjoy full dating lives. To say any different is an insult to dark women,

“And now you can accuse me of being mentally deficient, jealous and the hater of light-skinned women and the murderer of their dreams.”

Who mentioned jealous and hater? I certainly didn’t. That may be what you believe.

It seems that some people have had issues with different things that are deemed “underpriviledged”. They transfer the issues amongst themselves and find unity. They find people who they THINK are “priviledged” and who they believe are the anthesis of their issues and project insecurities onto them. They throw every issue but the kitchen sink at those they believe are “priviledged” to feel better about themselves. They are then satisified because while they could not approach a (enter “priviledge” here) woman in real life, they can always lash out on one on the net. This is what this is REALLY about.

Mira is a self-proclaimed thick woman. But instead of attacking others, she is secure enough to listen and acknowledge other people’s negative experiences to come to the consensus that we actually share the same experience. Two sides of the same coin. I respect that. Her comments have made me understand better what some thick women go through.

So to anyone who just want to lash out with ridiculous rants, I will no longer respond because it is counter productive and frankly a drain of energy.

Anyone who is sensible, rational, reasonable and secure enough to have a mature discussion, that would be great!

So now none of the other women commenting are “sensible, rational, reasonable or secure enough” to have a conversation because they’re not in the same boat with certain opinions, experiences, and philosophies of life? Phfft. If anyone here really thinks that, then I’m making a proposal:

If you disagree with someone, disagree. Say why. Don’t make it about their character or what you think about their character. That’s where we’re caught up. There’s a tactful, “productive” way of addressing characters that you don’t agree with. Its called asking,
“Do you think…X?”,
“Why do you think…X?”,
“You said…X. Be direct.”,
“Are you saying…X?”,
and “I think X is why you’re saying this”.
Give that person the opportunity to clarify their position and agree or disagree with you, then move on.

We should stop trying to diagnose each other since its very clear nobody understands where anyone else is coming from (except for two or three people commenting here obviously). This is getting ridiculous and the same people keep coming back with the same excuses for making the conversation about character rather than the content of a comment they disagree with. I hope everyone here thinks about this.

This is getting ridiculous and the same people keep coming back with the same excuses for making the conversation about character rather than the content of a comment they disagree with.

But why bother to engage with someone on what they actually say (and get your privilege challenged) when you can just write them off as a jealous, psychologically-impaired, bitter loser of low character and all around sucky human being (if you even see them as human)?

Actually, I think this thread was pretty usefull, because it showed the ways people think about privilege, and how they act when they do have it, as the opposite of when they don’t.

It was about thick vs thin, and while it doesn’t seem like a big deal like racism or sexism, it does show some common mechanisms of privilege.

(I’m not directing this at anybody in particular)

1. Those who have privilege often don’t see it.
2. Even if they do, they don’t see it as a big deal, and claim that other things (in which they are not privileged) have a stronger influence on their lives.
3. If you don’t have one sort of privilege, you can’t admit you might have another form.
4. If a person has a privilege, they can’t be suffering because they are privileged.

So it gets people saying things like: (I made up these examples, again, I’m not directing them at anybody in particular)

“I am thin, but since I am dark skinned people discriminate against me all the time. Being thin never helped me in life.”

That sort of thinking can easily be transferred to other forms of privilege. I’m sure you heard stuff like this plenty of times:

I am white, but I am poor. Being white never helped me. People discriminate against me because I am poor.

I am male, but I am black. Being male never helped me. People discriminate against me for being black.

I am white, middle class, but I am female. Being white and middle class never helped me. People discriminate against me all the time for being female.

I am a white male, but I am a homosexual. Being white and male never helped me. People discriminate against me all the time for being gay.

Etc, etc.

So, what’s the point? The point is your own privilege is always easy to miss, and it’s always seen as a “no big deal”. Privilege is easy to miss because even if you have it, you’ll encounter many problems you have to deal in life. So no, it doesn’t mean to live a life problems-free.

It means the ability to live your own life normally, that people treat you as fully human, according to your own abilities; the privilege of being seen as an individual.

On the other hand, whoever you are and whatever privilege you might have, chances are you are also discriminated based on some criteria. This makes your life harder and difficult, so it’s understandable that you focus more on these problems than on your privilege you don’t even notice.

And there’s yet another thing. Just because an individual is for some reason more privileged, it doesn’t mean he or she necessarily live a better life than someone who is not privileged. So while WASP heterosexual males as a group have the most power and privilege, you can’t say every single WASP heterosexual male has a better life than every black lesbian.

This often leads to oppression Olympics. How to “measure”, for example, who got it worse: black males or white women? Thin dark skinned black women or light skinned overweight women?

This is not the best way to approach the issue, because of two important things. First is the fact that there is a difference between an individual and a collective level. So as an individual (a white man, for example, or a black woman), you can be happy or unhappy, you can lead a good life or a bad one, depending on so many circumstances. That is a personal level. But if you look at a collective level, white males as a group have one position (privileged) in society, and black women have another. So you should never mix these two levels, because no matter what your individual experiences are, collective experiences still stand.

Another thing is the fact you can’t just take one aspect of person’s identity (race or gender for example) and claim it’s the one that is the most important for a person. It doesn’t work that way. A person is a mix of all her or his identities, and it is wrong to observe just one to try to sum up this person’s experience.

Nope. She goes to the U.S., she’s another “godamned immigrant”, even if she’s university educated. She won’t be a citizen and she will be open to all sorts of harassment. MAYBE, in a decade or two, after naturalization, she’ll get something along the line of the privileges Americans are born with.

Thaddeus–
Nope. She goes to the U.S., she’s another “godamned immigrant”, even if she’s university educated. She won’t be a citizen and she will be open to all sorts of harassment. MAYBE, in a decade or two, after naturalization, she’ll get something along the line of the privileges Americans are born with.

RDKirk–
That remark tells me that you have actually failed to understand this entire thread.

You might actually go back and re-read Mira’s own last comment–she gets it. You don’t.

No, RDKirk, I get it. I don’t think that you’re really thinking through what it means to be an immigrant: you legally and practically DO NOT HAVE the privileges of a citizen.

This is an immense issue. Being an immigrant these days – especially if one is illegal or irregular – opens oneself up to a boatload of harassment.

Here’s an example:

My wife Ana Paula is black and Brazilian. To the degree that she has been identified as “black” in the U.S., she has not yet suffered any overt prejudice (except, ironically, enough, from a handful of black Americans who hate seeing her walk hand-in-hand with a white guy). As soon as she is identified as a “latina immigrant”, however, she receives all sorts of shit, from blacks, whites and what have you.

This was a real shocker for her. She fully expected American racism to hit her because of her skin color, but during her 8 months of living up there, her most consistent encounters with prejudice were due to her nationality and immigrant status.

So no, RD, Mira suddenly doesn’t gain “priviledge” by moving to the States.

In America white skin is just about all you need for privilege. And who are you to speak of privilege you’re an educated, average weight, white, heterosexual, male. Hell you I bet you have more privilege in your big toe than everyone I know combined. Matter of fact you show your white privilege all the time on this blog. If I was to go to your peoples blog (Stormfront and Chimpout) I strongly doubt I would get away with harrassing whites the way you do blacks here.

Referring to thick people as “fatties” (even if you say its not your words but someone elses) is very rude and insensitive. I mean why even repeat that unless thats what you mean. I was pretty much offended by most of your posts here. And dont dare try to pull the I must be a ugly bitter fat woman card because Im the same size as you!

Leaveum sez…In America white skin is just about all you need for privilege.

Class? Hellooooo…?

The fact that you can just handwave this incredibly crucial social variable, Leaveum, speaks volumes about so-called “anti-racist” thinking in the U.S. these days.

Oh, and then there’s gender. THERE’S a doozy for you. But hell, you’re a guy, so why worry about that one…?

And who are you to speak of privilege you’re an educated, average weight, white, heterosexual, male.

I’m apparently a guy who understands how social exclusion works, in spite of whatever identities get slapped on me. You, apparently, cannot say the same, in spite of whatever identities you adopt.

Hell you I bet you have more privilege in your big toe than everyone I know combined.

First of all, I doubt you can even define privilege, let alone measure it, if you seriously think – as you claim – that white skin is all you need in order to have it.

Secondly, if you think the folks at Stormfront are “my peoples”, then you obviously believe the neo-fascist bullshit that they are passing out. How does that happen, Leaveum?

Finally, with regards to “harassing”… If “harassing”, to you, is daring to hold an opinion that’s different, then that’s your lookout. Unlike yourself, I have dealt with Stormfront folks in real life on several occasions and relations were not cordial, to say the least. I TROLL their board every chance I get. I speak my mind on this board because, whether or not I agree with many folks here, most posters on Abagond at least don’t have their heads shoved up their ass.

But from what you’re implying, Leaveum, you think you’d be a Stormfronter if you were white – after all, like Marcus Garvey, you apparently believe that they are somehow the representatives of white people in general. To me, that indicates an underlying belief in fascism: the belief that blood creates “true” politics.

You thus have no cause to wave your finger at me or call for me to turn in my anti-racist secret decoder ring and badge, kiddo: if it weren’t for your skin color, you’d be yelling “Seig Heil!” with the Aryanist monkeys.

Would you rather I blank it out? You can discuss a word without employing it, just like you can discuss the word “n*gger” without actually calling anyone a n*gger. It’s called “reading comprehension.” (Trying to avoid moderation here.)

And dont dare try to pull the I must be a ugly bitter fat woman card because Im the same size as you!

Wow, chip on your shoulder much? If you decide to make it about you, that’s your problem. I suggest you take it to someone who cares.

If “harassing”, to you, is daring to hold an opinion that’s different, then that’s your lookout.

I missed the whole harassing bit, but you do raise a good point about the American (or maybe certain-parts-of-the-Western Hemisphere*) tendency to individualize the general and the subsequent preference to work from that paradigm while skipping over the original general point.

Topic? Certainly.

Last year a friend of mine (a Black woman :-)) and I had a conversation about underachievement and students at the (elite, private) university we go to. She had just come back from abroad in Mexico, so she was just getting into the upperclassman groove and she told me she was disappointed to see so many people wasting opportunities and getting bad grades because of slackitude (not a lack of intelligence). Later that day, she wrote something on Facebook about her disappointment (something along the lines of “How can people waste a $50,000 education?”), and all of these randos popped up with, “Hey, I’m not wasting my education/I did XYZ/whine, whine, whine.”, and her response was, “If this doesn’t apply to you, why did you feel the need to respond? Cognitive dissonance much?”

I do think the tendency to believe that a non-specific statement is about you (the general you) usually reveals your own insecurities. You just “told on yourself”, as my younger cousins would say.

*I say this because I don’t think Americans have a monopoly on this–I’m just speaking to what I know.

**I don’t know much about Stormfront and all that, but I would guess that the unique lack of boundaries on the Internet opens up a whole new can of worms.

Thad save your lecture. Your a privileged white American who by choice live in Brazil where you have white/light skin privilege aswell.
I understand your point about your wife and I agree that immigrants are mistreated in America but being black and a Latina is not the same as being white and from Europe in America. I speculate that Mira would experience better treatment in America than your wife simply because she is white.

Um I know that you can use a word without employing it but why continue to spew words like “fatties” when you could use other words to make your point. You want people to watch what they say and respect the feelings of thin women so why not respect others feelings aswell. As I stated beforehand (because I knew you would mention something of this nature) the bitter chip on the shoulder accusation doesnt work with me. Reading your comments about this topic you are the one who sounds bitter. Ms Queenly (who made some valid points) was being respectful yet was ganged up on and attacked. That was not right.