Mr. Aldrich Gunn interview

This is an interview with Mr . Aldri ch Gunn, longtime member of
Bethel Baptist Church , Birmingham , Alabama . This interview will
discuss the ministry of the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth as pastor
of Bethel Church and also as the President of the Alabama Christian
Movement for Human Rights . This interview was conducted by Andrew
M. Manis at Bethel Baptist Church , Birmingham, on August 6, 1987.
ANDREW M. MAN I S : Mr. Gunn , can you give me your personal
background and how long have you been in the area and a member of
Bethel Baptist Church.
ALDRI CH GUNN : I 'm Aldrich Gunn. I have lived in Birmingham all of
my life . I was reared in the Eastern Area of Birmingham . In 1952
I was discharged from the Army and I married Mrs . Ann Brotham from
North Birmingham who was a member of Bethel Baptist Church . In
1953 I brought my membership over to Bethel Baptist Church where
Reverend Shuttlesworth was the pastor . I have been a member from
1953 which has been about 35 years . I found Reverend Shuttlesworth
at that time to be a very young person and a challenging person , a
person who was just right down with the members , were just right
down with his sheeps . He dealt with them on all levels , the old ,
the young , and you didn ' t have to be formal with him . You could
just associate with him . That is one of the adjectives I ' ll use .
He was such a likeable character . One of the things that str uck
out at me and one of the smallest things was I saw he was going to
be a challenger and was not going to be just a pulpit minister .
There was a store down there by the railroad tracks and there was
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a killing there one Friday night. Reverend Shuttlesworth got up on
Sunday morning and said "We need to go down to the City Council and
get that place closed ." Now if you understand the situation back
then the City Council back then was Bull Connor and those people.
It wasn ' t like you could just go down there and present your case .
You had to get somebody to speak for you. Bu t he took the
challenge and I saw it then and at that time I was just out of the
service and I went with him. But I saw then , it meant a lot to me
when I saw that he wouldn ' t let somebody else get up and speak for
him when he was there in person and he insisted on speaking which
he did. He explained. That was just one of the finer things which
I don ' t think someone else wouldn ' t look at but I could see in him
that he was a go getter .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me more about that if you can recall it .
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , the store is located up on Huntsville Road
right at the railroad crossing right up from the avenue as you come
across 33rd Street . There was a killing up there one Friday night
all of it is vivid to me now as I think about it . As I remember,
I wasn ' t in this area at that time but when I got there to the
church I could see the emphasis he was putting on how we was doing
nothin ' and a den of thieves and things that went on up there . He
wanted it closed. He wanted us to petition to the City Council
the City Government was Mayor- Commission form then we went by on I
think it was a Tuesday and we petitioned. At that time he asserted
himself as a leader because he demanded that he speak and explain
the situation to the Councilman -- to the Commission himself. It
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was City Commission Government at the time , which he did, and after
a while the place was closed . That showed me some of the qualities
of Reverend Shuttl esworth as a leader .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What did he say? You said he wouldn ' t let people
speak for him . He wanted to speak himself . Do you remember what
he said?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , what it was , when you go up there , you have to
get a white person to present your case . They was back there
telling us to process and you know, telling the process which was
to be heard and this was a old Black man that was telling us the
process to speak to the Council and it was a Mr . I don't
remember the name but it was a white person you ' re supposed to tell
him what to say . He ' s supposed to present your case as if you
couldn ' t talk directly to them.
time .
That was the situation at that
ANDREW M. MANIS : Specifically , how did Reverend Shuttlesworth, in
that situation , how did Reverend Shuttlesworth .
ALDRICH GUNN : He said the gentleman couldn ' t express what he knew
and he wanted to present his case himself. They let him present it
and made it real short you know. They were polite and nice . He
said "The thing is , you want the place closed don ' t you, minister?"
They called him a minister . I remember that . Those are some of
the things . That was a little while ago , you know .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What was the ...
ALDRICH GUNN : The store. They did close it . Most of the stores
at that time were run by Negroes and backed by other peoples. They
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closed it. So I saw that happen. That was one of the attributes.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Legally , how did they close i t?
ALDRICH GUNN: Well , they had -- I ' ll tell you a very important
thing. Before you got on the agenda someone had to do some back
searching and I remember , I reckon it was someone with the Police
Department had found out there had been another killing down there.
Some arrests had been made by now at the store and they did close
it .
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned you joined the church in 1953 and
Reverend Shuttlesworth came to the church in 1953 so he .
ALDRICH GUNN : He was just here when I first married over here and
I believe I remember , because when we were getting my wife lived
with her father- in- law who was a l ways a member of that church .
When we were getting married .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did Reverend Shuttlesworth tie the knot?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , he wasn ' t here when we got married . Afterwards
he came .
ANDREW M. MANI S : So you -- did you join this church because of
marriage .
ALDRICH GUNN: Not necessarily because I was -- I ' ll put it like
this . I was on that side of town and frankly, I had been in the
Army away and when I came back I just came down there and started
attending services and after that I saw Reverend Shuttlesworth .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What did you like about him?
ALDRICH GUNN : He was young . He was just someone who knew how to
communicate with the people , just like I say, the old , and if you
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wanted to think of something needed done , he would just go out and
do it himself. He was j ust that k i nd of a go getter guy . Just
right down wi th you .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What kind of financial support did the church
give to its pastor dur ing those years?
ALDRI CH GUNN , The congregation was very nice . You have to
underst and . You have some people was terribly afraid, especially
when it starts getting bad , like when actually the Reverend start
breaking the norm , you know . And that i s doing different things ,
contesting things -- school s , streetcars , busses . Another very
interesting story is about when the streetcars were going for the
f i rst time . We could ta l k about that . But at that time when
Reverend started challenging people , some of them were just afr aid .
Just human nature . And then at l east officers started showing
force in appearing , constantly appearing and patrolling . We had
more protection or distraction or whatever you want to cal l i t than
the norm , you know , because of Reverend Shuttl esworth being here
and t ha t was before the bombing . So once he got on the church , as
far as moral support , and everything was good but then you take
some of the older men , Brother Watson , Brot her Revis , qui te a few
men . But those two men a l ways will stand out in my l i fe as o l d men
who had gumption and woul d exemplify themselves , and stand up and
tell you where you should go and speak up for the ministry . You
had some who were shy and some who hesitated and some who would
give money but wouldn ' t do nothing . Then you had some who didn ' t
nave any money . Everybody was support in some way and that ' s what
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the individual must do . Some of them felt for security reasons
they couldn't do things but they would give money . You have some
who were just downright afraid. They hesitated in going forth.
When you got down to the church. I 'm not saying everybody would
get out there and support the boycott or march because it wasn ' t
just a church thing . It was a local thing. You had people from
all these surrounding areas plus throughout Birmingham . Because
before there was a King, there was a Shuttlesworth .
ANDREW M. MANIS, Did he i mmediately upon coming to Bethel as
pastor start talking Civil Rights?
ALDRICH GUNN: NO, it was mostly trying to get you to put your
thinking cap on and he was encouraging the young folks and wanted
to do for the young folks . He encouraged them to go to school and
get an education . One of the main things I said was when I saw him
take the attitude in leadership was to stop that store down there.
But as far as just speaking -- I doubt, you know, just to say this
was planned or he thought about it , I think over the night some
incidents that happened and sometimes its better for a man to be
just cool .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you think spurred him to begin? Is there
a specific incident? Like the Supreme Court decision in 1954?
ALDRICH GUNN , I 'm quite sure that was one . But I know another
one . Now he was very energetic in getting people to vote. At that
time we had a poll tax but when I voted , I remember coming out of
the Army , after I was out of the Army -- this was even before I was
a member over there -- he was encouraging people to go down and
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vote . You had commissioners down there. I never shall forget when
I went to vote down there . I went in there and I learned a lesson
the hard way. I went in there and they didn ' t even realize I was
there. Then he looked up and wanted to know what I wanted . I say
"yeah" and they said "no. " He asked me , he said, "how many seeds in
a watermelon? " I told him 456. He told me to get out of there and
don ' t come back within a year . A month later I went down there
humb l e . Yes sir. They talked . I mean they sat there with me and
talked about different things. Just general things before they
looked up at me. That was then . My father - in- law I remember, I
think he paid about $68.00 to be able to vote. But it was
something . We made it. It was a challenge and I learned -- but it
was wisdom then . Because I learned my stubbornness , smartness ,
didn ' t get anything . I wanted to be a voter so I was -- it worked.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me about your becoming a deacon .
ALDRICH GUNN: Shuttlesworth -- I always have attended Sunday school
and church . After we sat down -- I wasn ' t even thinking about them
putting me on the board . One day I was up at the house there .
Brother N. J . Davis, an old deacon here , he came up there and he
told me , "Aldrich , I ' ve known you and I've been looking at you
we ' re talking about some young deacons -- we ' ve talked about it and
we have mentioned you. " So Shuttlesworth, I think there were about
six of us ordained at that time. It was something that I didn ' t
even have the slightest idea it was about to happen. Then he came
and talked with them and got them through training and told us some
of the things which we were going to try to do. About that time he
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did mention that he wanted it to be men , and l ook out for the elder
folks -- women and things -- want to stand up and give support .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What about voting?
ALDRICH GUNN : Voting?
ANDREW M. MANIS : Register to vote?
ALDRICH GUNN: Most of us along that line at that time was actually
-- that was something he menti oned from the pulpit just about every
Sunday -- qualify to vote . I remember one year Bull Connor won the
election by less than I would say 15 and that was a great (cannot
hear). Because some people couldn ' t vote . So that ' s why we should
make votes count .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What do your remember about Reverend
Shuttlesworth ' s preaching?
ALDRICH GUNN: He was a fiery preacher . But Reverend Shuttleswor th
he was - - he put you -- he would teach by parables . He desired
that all of his members would respect one another and respect all
mankind but yet he would say in order to be respected if you had to
give respect . He said because you want something that don ' t mean
you go knocking over a person for it . You could do that but some
of the things you get into -- he would set example for you .
Preaching e xamples for you as to how to carry your Christian life .
He would encourage mostly the men to try to get out and encourage
children to go to school -- his ministry was a full forceful
ministry. It wass ' t a fire and brimstone ministry . Mostly in
parables . He would always relate .
ANDREW M. MANIS : I 'm not sure of the difference there . Explain
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the difference between fire and brimstone ministry and parable
ministry .
ALDRI CH GUNN: Well , that ' s when , you know , different people have
a chance to voice in how they go and how they preach . They preach
from the Bible the way to carry their voice , see . But then ,
Reverend Shuttlesworth , when he ' s preaching to you , he would preach
from the Bible but he would preach it where you could have an
understanding . If he talked about the Jordan River , he would g i ve
an example . He talked about things often . He talked about the Red
Sea , you ' ve got to cross it you know . He would come back with some
of these things about the Red Sea and go on and explai n how you
have a faith and he will stand here and show you where you can . If
God did it for the children he can do it for you . That ' s how you
have faith in the Lord . That was mostly what he based his action
on . Of course , sometimes -- Reverend Shuttlesworth was concerned
about all his people , regardless if something happened or who you
were . He would call somebody and say go see about the sick . He
was just constantly at the house or something . He was a minister
that could communicate with the flock.
ANDREW M. HANIS : Did he have generally good relationships with the
people in the church?
ALDRICH GUNN : He had good relations with the people in the church .
As you got on i nto the tough of the thing some fellows got actually
frightened , you know. Of course you know that that was back there
in the fifties then . Some of them got afraid about this property
over here .
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ANDREW M. MANIS : Can you recall any conflict between Shuttlesworth
and church members?
ALDRICH GUNN : Specifically , when you get down to the brass tacks ,
I 'm talking about the people , the leaders of the church , I 'm
talking about the leaders and the followers , too . You had some who
wanted to come and talk to him about how to ?? him or how to take
care of yourself , something ' s gonna happen to you . Everybody
showed their concern in some ways . Some showed it in just a way
that Fred something is going to happen to you. When the church was
bombed and when it actually got down to the rocks and bricks of it ,
all of a sudden when the church was bombed , I was the first member
of the church -- I don ' t remember exactly where but I remember that
night -- I don ' t remember whether it was Christmas .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Christmas 1956 . Christmas night .
ALDRI CH GUNN : It was Christmas . He had a l i ttle Christmas tree .
I never shall forget when I walked over there I thought "I don ' t
see how any man could walk out of that ." The Christmas tree was
standing . The Bible is , and I 'm talking about , flattened? Do you
understand what I mean , flattened? I ' ve been to Ko r ea and I ' ve
seen things . That place , that thing , was , I 'm talking about flat .
Everything else was flat . Less than , I ' ll tell you the police were
very efficient. They pulled up the ropes and made you get back .
They made you get back. But you know some things happen l i ke that
you just don ' t see . It was a challenge just going in there and
seeing -- that didn ' t do nothing but make me know God was real ,
when you saw how he came out . It motivated me that I was just
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fol l owing somebody on the right road . Because God brought him
through something like that . And I 'm not talking about something
somebody t old me about . I saw that . Once you see things like that
and the man come out and he was out there laughing now . Carrying
on . More than that , making fun . Let ' s see , was that a Saturday?
It was the close of the weekend . Well , one of these bombings -­that
' s one bombing but that church house was bombed three or four
times . Now?? was bombed five or six . I 'm not talking about the
ones we don ' t know about . But I r emember one time it was bombed on
a Saturday and we came out there all of them was mopping and he
said "Get in here , we ' re going to have church in the morning ."
That's when all t he wi ndows was lost . We had some of the best
services we ever had in that church . Right after the bombing , we
got out there that night and swept it , cleaned it out , picked up
the glass and everything and there was a packed house the next
morning .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you remember about that service?
ALDRICH GUNN : It was a very se rious service . It was hard, you
know . There was lots of meditating and good praying . Just
thankful that the Lord brought us through. The mere fact that he
was standi ng there was a living exampl e of what God could do . And
I think those people -- it uplifted peopl e and motivated a lot of
people that God could bring us through these things . That ' s the
first time I had ever heard of somebody bombing a church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did he talk about fighting segregation in
Sunday's sermons?
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ALDRICH GUNN : He said the walls would have to come down . He
wanted most of al l, when Reverend would talk about segregation and
all these different things I think it was a gradual thing . The
first thing he wanted us to do was this votin ' thing . That's what
he wanted us to do. But at the same time you start that you had
confrontations about the bus and the schools and then the bus when
we started boycotting the bus.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Tell me about that . You said you --
ALDRICH GUNN: One Thursday I was at home and Reverend called me
and he said "Aldrich," -- I had moved across town . "I would like
for you to pick two good men and meet me at Tabernacle. " That was
on 11th Avenue and 26th Street. He said , "Don ' t park your car
around the church . Park your car away from the church and walk up
here . " I got Brother Jones and Brother Davis. Brother Davis is
dead now . They were o lde r than I was . They were people who
understood . So we went down there that night. We parked on 25th
Street and 12th Avenue. It wasn ' t like a meeting was there. The
only thing there was, was one candle on . Somebody had a light that
was reading. He said he wanted us to boycott the buses .
Streetcars then. They had some leaflets and they wanted to get
them out that night. He had people from allover town and we
distributed l eaflets and we got that out by word of hand that
night . We put them on peoples porches and encouraged them to
boycott the s treetcars . I remember now, that was how that got
started . It took a while . It didn ' t take but a while the next
morning when the people got up . Some of them didn ' t . Some of them
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had to go across the mountain . They had shuttle service for them
to go across the mountain and go to your job . Other people had
made preparation . The next day it was even better because people
had had time to make preparation. From that you got into that
struggle . Then he decides to challenge the board . You know, you
tell the Black -- colored and white colored board white . He
went up there and sat in front of the board . Right now the bus is
running by Bethel Baptist Church . There wasn ' t but one bus runnin '
out here. Didn't even go to town . It ran from North Birmingham to
East Birmingham down here on 24th . That ' s the only way you could
communicate unless you took a cab . That was some of the things you
can see here .
ANDREW M. MAN I S : Were you a bona fide , dues paying member of the
Alabama Christian Movement?
ALDRICH GUNN : I had my card , yeah . I didn ' t miss meetin ' s of the
Christian Movement. It was just like going to church Monday night.
You looked forward to it and it was a challenge. Everybody looked
at the Movement as a Civil Rights thing. But actually the Movement
was Black (cannot hear ) you ' ve got some good teachin I and
preachin ' there. And then , like I say , you had people come up with
the fire and brimstone and then you had the people who came -­Abernathy
would come out and get the emotionally disturbed .
Psychological, you know, work up your -- and tell you about the
things you know what ' s happenin ' you know . Then he would bring
King out there and it would be the setup of Shuttlesworth would
come behind, like that after the Movement, Alabama Christian
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Movement was set up . Shuttlesworth would come out and that was
even before then . Shuttl esworth would get up there and tell you
about his experience and each day he would have a new one to tel l
you . Some you would wonder how, where was he at the time when some
of the things happened to him or almost happened to him .
miracle the man is still alive .
It is a
ANDREW M. MANIS : What kind of things did you - - did you go by
yourself?
ALDRICH GUNN: No , I had a 1952 Chevrolet coupe . There were four
or five of us regular that would go. I would put five others in
the car and they would come around when I came home and we ' d leave
out early .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did your wife go?
ALDRICH GUNN : Oh , yeah , at least two or three times a month she
would go . We had the kids out of the house . Get somebody like my
mother and father . During the Alabama Christian Movement when
Reverend was carrying on and everything , well , like some big event
had happened you know , you ' d just have to leave almost at 3 : 00 to
get there at the 1 1 : 00 service if you want to get a seat for your
wife. Because you ' ll probably end up on the outside looking in .
She would go all she could .
financia l ly .
We would support it all we could
ANDREW M. MANIS : What percentage of the members of the chur ch were
active attenders at the mass meetings?
ALDRICH GUNN: I don ' t know the percentage but if you look at it
from a men ' s point of view , you know, I have to look at that
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because at different times maybe almost the church would be there .
I know the choir . The young choir was vigorous and could sing.
They would tear it up . I doubt if there is a person over there -­I
couldn ' t name one that didn ' t ever go to the Movement . I didn't
know any. But some were scared . They would pray for you and tell
you things and give you littl e things.
ANDREW M. MANIS : As a person who went every week , how did you and
others who went ever y week , how did you get along or respond or
interact with the people who you felt should have gone?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well, I wasn ' t hostile to any of them , because I got
another understanding of individuals. Each man has to determine
what he wants to do for himself . Everybody has their way. Some of
the same peoples if you would listen at them pray you know their
desire. They just don't have the gumption as you would call it.
They just don ' t have any gumption. There ' s no doubt that some of
them don't have any backbone . You have to respect them because you
understand . They act like -- I ' ve seen some of them cry about the
things you tell them about . It was just that kind and you and some
of them that didn ' t -- was concerned about the Movement and didn ' t
want to get so locked up in it - - afraid of what was happeni n' ,
afraid what would happen to the church, afraid what would happen to
the individual , afraid what woul d happen to the Reverend . Some of
them was just hostile. I tell you, you can have many men along
that line. You had men that wouldn ' t go. But if something big
happen , then you see everybody. It would be just like they had
been there all their life to let them tell it. I look now at some
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of the people who get up and tell you about the Movement, you know.
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned that for you , going to a mass
meeting was like going to church.
ALDRICH GUNN: Yeah , I got a satisfaction out of it. I got a good
satisfaction because you could see so many people . It would give
you a gleam of hope and as I look back on it now, and I can see we
have a Black mayor and all these things, I can say Shuttlesworth
was the one who brought voter registration and this is some of the
fruits . But you know some of us like to have instant coffee . We
don't have the patience to work for the fruits of patience .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Some would say that even the constitution of the
Alabama Christian Movement didn ' t seem very patient. It said , "we
want our freedom now, we ' ve already waited a hundred years. "
ALDRICH GUNN : Sure but , I 'm talking about the r esults. I 'm not
t alking about what you desire now . Sure you want but now you reap.
It ' s just like the mayor's election coming up now. He has
cultivated the land and the next four years are going to be reaping
the harvest because he knows where the bathroom is now . He had to
find these things , see , and this year , to get back to that , it
takes patience in this society of ours.
ANDREW M. MANIS: In what way did you think or why did you think
Reverend Shuttlesworth saw Civil Rights as a part of his ministry
and as a part of the Gospel?
ALDRICH GUNN : He was concerned for his people, and when I say that
basically, I actually don ' t think that was his mission. Those were
just some o f the things that was done. And some of the
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confrontations made h i m to do other things . I don ' t think it was
his mission to just go out and say , that is to sit down and say ,
you know how you sit down and you plan something . I don ' t think it
was in the planning . I think it just came up by some of the
results of the little things which he wanted to achieve . And he
said why ask for the apple when I should have part of the tree?
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did he see that as part of his calli ng?
ALDRI CH GUNN : Well , aft er he got into it the law will show you ,
you know t he law is for all mankind . You realize that . Bu t when
we compare back there in the fifties and late sixties up until now
and the conditions whi ch we considered then, you have the des i re to
do things , and IIwhy can ' t I do this? " Or , "why can ' t we accomplish
this? II It wasn ' t because it was you or likely you. It was because
it was laws . See , laws was the barriers then. He went out and
decided he would chall enge the laws .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Tell me what you remember about the decis i on to
post guards outside the church .
ALDRI CH GUNN: Well , when you realized you was out the r e in combat ,
that ' s when you see bombs going off and see I had just got back
from Korea . Yong Don Pho , Pusan , Inchon . All those p l aces . I 'm
tellin ' you I saw that happen . I was right back in combat .
ANDREW M. MANIS : When was it decided?
ALDRICH GUNN , It was decided that night . That ' s how the thing
worked .
see it .
night .
You know decis i ons like that don ' t be decidin ' once you
It just peopl e who were going to stay out there all
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ANDREW M. MANIS: Just somebody spontaneous --
ALDRICH GUNN: Yeah , then you set up by organizing it , you see . As
it went along we decided what to do and then winter set in on us
and at the Revis home we got together and they put those windows on
there and used it for the guard house . It was just like those
posts in Korea . You go out on relief and hope . I remember one
night when a fellow named John Lewis -- some lady came home and
said "There ' s a bucket down on the side of the house. " He went
down there . It wasn ' t a house over in that field . He threw it
over there less than five seconds and oh, everything blew apart.
Somebody had set a bucket of dynamite right against the church . He
ran down there and got i t. You look at the fraction of a second if
he had hesitated . I might have hesitated and it would have been
too late. But God protected us.
ANDREW M. HANIS : Do you remember when that was?
ALDRICH GUNN : About 1965 or 1966 , something like that.
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned the police .
ALDRICH GUNN : When you stand guard , the police now, they made a
circle. They patrolled too. But it was just like you didn ' t have
the assurance of the officers. I will say that wholeheartedly .
You got some nice officers, always got some nice officers, and then
you have some officers and they was quite natural, they was
protectin ' the status quo . You was a threat to their way of life
because you didn ' t have a Black policeman in the ranks . You didn ' t
have a Black janitor at that time . But they would patrol and they
would pass in the car but whenever they start to come into the lot
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something pretty soon would happen . You better say that again .
And if you got a gun and they catch you with a gun they ' ll put you
in jail when you are protecting your place .
ANDREW M. MANIS : So all these guards had guns?
ALDRICH GUNN : Not all of them.
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned the policemen.
ALDRICH GUNN : They would patrol . Especially before something
happened and after something happened . When something happened ,
they would come in with authority and take a rope and block it off .
And they don ' t want you to go near it because they got to
investigate . You can understand that .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you remember about the incident when
Reverend Shuttlesworth was attacked at Phillips High School .
ALDRICH GUNN: I wasn ' t there . I wasn ' t there . I learned about
that when I got home --
ANDREW M. MANIS : What was the church ' s response to that?
ALDRICH GUNN : When he was attacked at Phillips High School , mostly
now when you are attacked , see , most of the men , when they found
out he had been whipped with them chains , now, you know how you get
all temperamental and everything but then you hear some people talk
over there at the church you know they want to start -- to let it
go , because it has start hurtin ' you know - - you have to look out
in the conflice then and some were afraid that they might be next.
But you have a lot of mens and everything , especially in the
Movement and the guard and everything . It was an emotional thing .
His wife was up there . She was stabbed in the side . These are
19
things which you don ' t talk about. Lots of things were done . It ' s
not the first time he had been hurt . Over there at Smi thfi e l d they
shot a man .
over there .
Over there at Arthur Shores place , they shot a man
They was talking about the resembl ance of him and
Shuttlesworth . I'm talking hearsay . I didn ' t see this but they
was talking about how close he resembled Shuttlesworth .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did the people in the church have a sense of
wanting to minister to Shuttlesworth and his family when something
like that happened?
ALDRICH GUNN : Oh , it would bring him everything . You know, and
not only in the church , but when something like that happened , that
house would just be filled and then again I remember one time when
I got over there and the phone rang and I answered it and this guy
was telling me what he was going to do next , you know, on the phone
and you still had that , you know . Well , I didn ' t tell nobody
about that. I said a few things I shouldn ' t have , you know. I
hung up . But I remember that . We was over there when something
had happened .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What did he say?
ALDRICH GUNN: He said it would be "worse than that next time ,
nigger " and he was going to bomb something else . And that was
right after the bombing . All the people were there and some of the
women were crying and carrying on . It kind of upset me and
everything. He said " It ' s going to be worse than that next time ,
nigger ." He said a few little things and I listened . I said
something to him which was foolish at this time and he hung up .
20
ANDREW M. MANIS : Tell me what he said and what you said .
ALDRICH GUNN: Well , I never will forget because the phone was
ringing and it was right there in the hall and I picked it up . He
said "Is this that Nigger Shuttlesworth I shouse? " Then he said
" It ' s gonna be worse than that next , nigger ." I said, "Well, you
tell your mother . " I hung the phone up. That's what I said . I
never will forget , I was qu i ck- tongued at that age and everything
else . But I didn ' t even say nothin ' to nobody about it except --I
forgot but someone was with me and I told him what was said but to
get out and broadcast it, I didn ' t .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did you ever tell Shuttlesworth?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , I don ' t think I even mentioned anything to Fred
about that . Because next time we was over there I was back there
in that little office and found out some of the things that
actually needed to get set up and I think -- set up and try to
protect ourselves because actually , you know , the police wasn't
protecting us. Of course they would always have that good little
speech.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember when his daughters and Fred, Jr .,
were . .
ALDRICH GUNN: On the bus?
ANDREW M. MANIS : up in Gadsden and got arrested?
ALDRICH GUNN , No , I missed that . I don ' t know where I was that
night . But when I got home they said they had called out there
somebody called and said they understand he had gone to Gadsden so
I came down here and they said Fred said "come Hell or high water"
21
he was going . He left. Because if he say he is going to jump out
that window, you might as well get a net . I didn 't go to Gadsden
with him. Somebody said they had them on the Greyhound bus. I
tell you another thing I remember was the time the Freedom Riders -
- at Easter time when the Freedom Riders carne through here . After
those fellows got here , and someone called over to the house and
told my wife that some that Reverend Mooley was corning and he
mentioned it in the service , I think , the Freedom Riders and could
somebody put up some of them for that night? They let him know .
There was two of them . I went home and I told my wife and , at that
time our first child was expected , and I told my wife and she said
"Yeah , we can take two ." I went and got them and a fellow was from
Virginia and he ' s been back here since then. He wen t on and
finished school and he is doing well. I forget what his name was .
I think it was Bernard. But he stayed and he talked about the
ordeal and actually how frightened he was. There was some trouble
up there . And at the bus station down here. It was Easter time.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Mother ' s Day .
ALDRICH GUNN: Mother I S Day . I knew it was some holiday . But
there was a very sad event then .
ANDREW M. MANIS :
to you?
ALDRICH GUNN:
How was it arranged for the Freedom Rider to get
Well , they carne to the parsonage over there next
door . As they was there, I called down there and I talked to Mrs .
Shuttlesworth . We just communicated . I called her "Ruby " you
know. I was young then and I told her I would take two . When I
22
got there they were ready . So I said ride on the inside. Other
peoples was coming to pick them up. But I carried them over there
to the house .
ANDREW M. MANIS : They spent the night?
ALDRICH GUNN : They spent the night with me .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were they whites?
ALDRICH GUNN: One was white and one was black . It just inspired
me to know what encouraged them to do it. Young man in school and
had his be l iefs but he sai d he didn ' t believe it would get this
bad. I asked him about his family . One was for it and one was
against it . I don ' t remember what - - he wasn ' t Bernard . I don ' t
remember what his name was . But we stayed up and talked a while.
We let them rest that night and they stayed on over until the next
day before I got back home they was over here and they was on their
way .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Anything else you remember about your
conversations with them?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , I think it was just they were talking and just
laying it out they were afraid they wouldn ' t make it down here
after they saw the things that was happenin '. Mostly we talked
about the homes and concerns about the family. My wife wanted to
know why they would do such a thing as that and they said they
wanted to get on with it and I think one of them said he had been
on several of them . He said it was the worst when he got to
Alabama . Those were the basic things . That was some time ago .
ANDREW t-l . MANIS : About the big demonstrations in 1963 , you
23
probably got
ALDRICH GUNN : The big demonstrations just show you how some people
well , some people looked forward to it. It was a thrill . Scene
of wit . And the dogs. Some guy would take a gyp (dog in heat ) --
a guy called "Cool " he was down there, he would wipe the dog ' s
"private parts " with a rag and attach it to a stick to get the
attention of the police dogs . The dogs lose attention when they
see the female dogs . Those dogs were having a fit to get that gyp.
That was one of the different things . And one fellow -- I don ' t
know what he hit that dog with but I saw a fellow kill a dog down
there . But killing a dog was just like killing a man. The law
said if you kill a dog you get death . I didn ' t see it but I saw
the dog . If you kill that dog you have to leave town.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did you participate in the demonstrations?
ALDRICH GUNN: Yeah , I was down there with the water hose and
everything . Yeah I saw about three. You know you think about what
was happening .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were you close to where Shuttlesworth was during
the demonstrations?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , I was five or six lines back or something like
that . When the water -- you didn ' t have no position then when they
turned the hose on that night. They had this tank. They had this
armored car . It patrolled the command post . When they came out
firemen had those hose , the velocity would just knock you down .
They ' d get up runnin ' and laugh . Some of them was hurt . A lot of
people was hurt because the police was hi ttin' folks in the head
24
with them billy clubs. It was quite an experience . Some of them
was wounded pretty bad. But that dog -- after seeing that dog I
was telling you about , I didn ' t see that when it was going on . I
didn ' t see that.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Were you close enough to Shuttlesworth to be
privy to anything that was going on , any pl anning for the
demonstrations?
ALDRICH GUNN : I remember the first night when they decided to see
about the Christian Movement . You had some preachers , you had some
ministers and they met right in the church i n an office there .
They decided they was going to meet at Sardis Baptist Church over
on the Smithfield side . They had some kind of ministers ' alliance
which had been there al l their lives and they were in
communication . They told Fred they would have contact with the
elected officials and he was saying that we didn ' t need no other
organization . Shuttlesworth said , "Well , Hell , we j ust need one . "
In that meeting all of them except I think it was a Dr . Ware -- he
was opposed . So they got over there and they had a constitution
and everythi ng fo r ratification over there at Sardis Baptist Church
on the Southside and that night what they d i d more people stood in
line for that meeting . That was when they first organized the
Movement, Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights , and they
came up with that . I never shall f orget the emphasis on which Ware
was studying why was another one needed and Reverend Shuttlesworth
made the statement "Yes , we have one , but what has it done and what
have the peoples achieved? " That blotted out Ware . Then we were
25
on our way down then . Dr . Ware was trying to show the l ogic in it
and he said "somebody is going to get killed ." He said , "they ' re
still getting killed now and you 're not doin ' anything . "
were some of the things that stood out with me .
Those
ANDREW M. MANIS : What do you think Shuttlesworth ' s role was in the
1963 demonstrati on? Did King and the Southern Christian Leadership
Conference just sort of take the thing over from him?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , you ' ve got to remember one thing. King
couldn ' t have done what Shuttlesworth did i n Birmingham. If there
weren ' t a Shuttlesworth where was King? It ' s just l ike
Shuttlesworth laid the groundwork here while King , you know, that
crowd in Montgomery got it , but Shuttlesworth -- the things he had
to put up with here and the people who you were dealing with, it
took Fred for Bull and it took Bull for Fred. Some other minister
dealing with Connor was wouldn ' t be successful . Without a man like
Fred , he would laugh and all, but he went on and do what he say he
gonna do and take the chance . I think it were more help to the
Movement was these different bombings . They thought they was
fight i n ' but it was nothing but a chain -- a link and chain . Now
when you talk about you have people who have a doubt about
something -- you let somebody go out and do something like that and
everybody know its wrong and no justice , you know, where other
people be telling its just a feeling to come back and bomb a church
you don ' t do nothin ' but link peoples closer together and make a
tighter bond . And when you got into , of course , Reverend King,
mind great and everything , love to go hear him speak , but actually
26
when you got down, its just like any command post, you have
excellent sort of command , you know , and then you have the people
in the field. Fred was just one who liked to stay in the field.
He believed in direct action .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What about Shuttlesworth's decision to leave
Bethel?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well, I don ' t know when Shuttlesworth - - things was
getting kind of tight on him here in Birmingham . Real tight down
here . People actually got scared down here .
had someone who called me from Cincinnati .
I understood -- I
They called me or
called someone and said "Reverend has decided he is going to leave
Birmingham and take a church in Cincinnati. " When I saw him I
asked him . He said he is going to speak about that at 11 : 00 ,
whatever he decide to do . There were those who said "\Y'hatever"
some felt joy and relief, some of them , they felt the joy and
relief because they thought the battle was going to be over but
they felt sadness -- these people , wishy- washy . All of them at
that time saw some of the things. He could have gotten churches
around here . I reckon he was just considering his family . As far
as himself , he didn ' t care . But he had his daughters and his wife
and everything .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Was there any conflict in the church? Reuben
Davis said something about there might have been some debate about
whether or not in a sense he should be pastoring both churches at
the same time . Do you recall anything like that?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , actually, what he was doing - - he hadn ' t
27
accepted the church . We talked about that. That wouldn 't have
worked out had he accepted the church . He just went up there to
let the people hear him preach. Then they called him back . When
they called him he said he wanted to stay a little while to get his
business straightened out . Now I can understand that . I was
behind Reverend under those circumstances wholeheartedly . He had
his business to get straightened up here so he could get on up
there .
ANDREW M. MANIS : There was a time in which Mr . Davis publicly
questioned the fact that he had wanted a ninety- day transition
period .
ALDRICH GUNN : Yeah , he wanted ninety days. That was too long.
Ninety days was too long . We talked to him concerning that . Not
only Reuben but quite a few of us . But we wouldn ' t stand for
ninety days . We wanted to give him a reasonable time. Ninety days
for you to be in and out .
ANDREW M. MANIS: So what did .
ALDRICH GUNN: I forgot how much time we gave but he said that he
guaranteed whatever it was that he would pick up it was less
than thirty days after he said he was going on to Cincinnati . But
we talked about the ninety days and it was too long.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me what you think were -- in what ways did
Shuttlesworth influence this church the most?
ALDRICH GUNN : He built this church . You had more youth at this
church during Shuttlesworth ' s administration . You had more youth.
You had more programs for the sick and the old. Things would
28
propel him into the limelight for whatever . The record speaks for
i tsel f.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did he influence you?
ALDRICH GUNN : As a leader. You know a lots of peoples talk about
it but he was one who would talk about it and then act . Some
things I would rather say he wouldn ' t do but I find that if
Reverend say he ' s gonna do it , you might as well look for it
because he was gonna do it. When he ' d be t alking the Movement and
he felt that it needs to be done if "I got to go to jail by myself.
I think we should do this. " These are the things as far as -- he
wasn ' t one that would tell you something and then do something
else , or tell you something and wouldn ' t follow through on it . He
would talk to you about it. He would talk to you one on one . You
might as well tell him the t ruth cause I 'm not gonna be a
hypocrite . He would tell you something whether you like it or not .
Whatever he decided to do he was gonna do . He would often go out ,
I tell you what, he would go out and he would do g r eat things , and
he would go out and be gone . He would do anything about getting
things done . Those are some of the things -- redo the church , put
the windows and things back in, lots of things like that , but his
decision to leave I think was mostly when his wife started getting
physically taxed. She stayed mighty sick. That was more worse
than the change I think. It wasn ' t worse than the change but to
her as a lady , he was more concerned about her . He would call us
together and we would call him together and talk about his leaving
and when he said ninety days we got together and talked about it .
29

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

This is an interview with Mr . Aldri ch Gunn, longtime member of
Bethel Baptist Church , Birmingham , Alabama . This interview will
discuss the ministry of the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth as pastor
of Bethel Church and also as the President of the Alabama Christian
Movement for Human Rights . This interview was conducted by Andrew
M. Manis at Bethel Baptist Church , Birmingham, on August 6, 1987.
ANDREW M. MAN I S : Mr. Gunn , can you give me your personal
background and how long have you been in the area and a member of
Bethel Baptist Church.
ALDRI CH GUNN : I 'm Aldrich Gunn. I have lived in Birmingham all of
my life . I was reared in the Eastern Area of Birmingham . In 1952
I was discharged from the Army and I married Mrs . Ann Brotham from
North Birmingham who was a member of Bethel Baptist Church . In
1953 I brought my membership over to Bethel Baptist Church where
Reverend Shuttlesworth was the pastor . I have been a member from
1953 which has been about 35 years . I found Reverend Shuttlesworth
at that time to be a very young person and a challenging person , a
person who was just right down with the members , were just right
down with his sheeps . He dealt with them on all levels , the old ,
the young , and you didn ' t have to be formal with him . You could
just associate with him . That is one of the adjectives I ' ll use .
He was such a likeable character . One of the things that str uck
out at me and one of the smallest things was I saw he was going to
be a challenger and was not going to be just a pulpit minister .
There was a store down there by the railroad tracks and there was
1
a killing there one Friday night. Reverend Shuttlesworth got up on
Sunday morning and said "We need to go down to the City Council and
get that place closed ." Now if you understand the situation back
then the City Council back then was Bull Connor and those people.
It wasn ' t like you could just go down there and present your case .
You had to get somebody to speak for you. Bu t he took the
challenge and I saw it then and at that time I was just out of the
service and I went with him. But I saw then , it meant a lot to me
when I saw that he wouldn ' t let somebody else get up and speak for
him when he was there in person and he insisted on speaking which
he did. He explained. That was just one of the finer things which
I don ' t think someone else wouldn ' t look at but I could see in him
that he was a go getter .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me more about that if you can recall it .
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , the store is located up on Huntsville Road
right at the railroad crossing right up from the avenue as you come
across 33rd Street . There was a killing up there one Friday night
all of it is vivid to me now as I think about it . As I remember,
I wasn ' t in this area at that time but when I got there to the
church I could see the emphasis he was putting on how we was doing
nothin ' and a den of thieves and things that went on up there . He
wanted it closed. He wanted us to petition to the City Council
the City Government was Mayor- Commission form then we went by on I
think it was a Tuesday and we petitioned. At that time he asserted
himself as a leader because he demanded that he speak and explain
the situation to the Councilman -- to the Commission himself. It
2
was City Commission Government at the time , which he did, and after
a while the place was closed . That showed me some of the qualities
of Reverend Shuttl esworth as a leader .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What did he say? You said he wouldn ' t let people
speak for him . He wanted to speak himself . Do you remember what
he said?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , what it was , when you go up there , you have to
get a white person to present your case . They was back there
telling us to process and you know, telling the process which was
to be heard and this was a old Black man that was telling us the
process to speak to the Council and it was a Mr . I don't
remember the name but it was a white person you ' re supposed to tell
him what to say . He ' s supposed to present your case as if you
couldn ' t talk directly to them.
time .
That was the situation at that
ANDREW M. MANIS : Specifically , how did Reverend Shuttlesworth, in
that situation , how did Reverend Shuttlesworth .
ALDRICH GUNN : He said the gentleman couldn ' t express what he knew
and he wanted to present his case himself. They let him present it
and made it real short you know. They were polite and nice . He
said "The thing is , you want the place closed don ' t you, minister?"
They called him a minister . I remember that . Those are some of
the things . That was a little while ago , you know .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What was the ...
ALDRICH GUNN : The store. They did close it . Most of the stores
at that time were run by Negroes and backed by other peoples. They
3
closed it. So I saw that happen. That was one of the attributes.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Legally , how did they close i t?
ALDRICH GUNN: Well , they had -- I ' ll tell you a very important
thing. Before you got on the agenda someone had to do some back
searching and I remember , I reckon it was someone with the Police
Department had found out there had been another killing down there.
Some arrests had been made by now at the store and they did close
it .
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned you joined the church in 1953 and
Reverend Shuttlesworth came to the church in 1953 so he .
ALDRICH GUNN : He was just here when I first married over here and
I believe I remember , because when we were getting my wife lived
with her father- in- law who was a l ways a member of that church .
When we were getting married .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did Reverend Shuttlesworth tie the knot?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , he wasn ' t here when we got married . Afterwards
he came .
ANDREW M. MANI S : So you -- did you join this church because of
marriage .
ALDRICH GUNN: Not necessarily because I was -- I ' ll put it like
this . I was on that side of town and frankly, I had been in the
Army away and when I came back I just came down there and started
attending services and after that I saw Reverend Shuttlesworth .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What did you like about him?
ALDRICH GUNN : He was young . He was just someone who knew how to
communicate with the people , just like I say, the old , and if you
4
wanted to think of something needed done , he would just go out and
do it himself. He was j ust that k i nd of a go getter guy . Just
right down wi th you .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What kind of financial support did the church
give to its pastor dur ing those years?
ALDRI CH GUNN , The congregation was very nice . You have to
underst and . You have some people was terribly afraid, especially
when it starts getting bad , like when actually the Reverend start
breaking the norm , you know . And that i s doing different things ,
contesting things -- school s , streetcars , busses . Another very
interesting story is about when the streetcars were going for the
f i rst time . We could ta l k about that . But at that time when
Reverend started challenging people , some of them were just afr aid .
Just human nature . And then at l east officers started showing
force in appearing , constantly appearing and patrolling . We had
more protection or distraction or whatever you want to cal l i t than
the norm , you know , because of Reverend Shuttl esworth being here
and t ha t was before the bombing . So once he got on the church , as
far as moral support , and everything was good but then you take
some of the older men , Brother Watson , Brot her Revis , qui te a few
men . But those two men a l ways will stand out in my l i fe as o l d men
who had gumption and woul d exemplify themselves , and stand up and
tell you where you should go and speak up for the ministry . You
had some who were shy and some who hesitated and some who would
give money but wouldn ' t do nothing . Then you had some who didn ' t
nave any money . Everybody was support in some way and that ' s what
5
the individual must do . Some of them felt for security reasons
they couldn't do things but they would give money . You have some
who were just downright afraid. They hesitated in going forth.
When you got down to the church. I 'm not saying everybody would
get out there and support the boycott or march because it wasn ' t
just a church thing . It was a local thing. You had people from
all these surrounding areas plus throughout Birmingham . Because
before there was a King, there was a Shuttlesworth .
ANDREW M. MANIS, Did he i mmediately upon coming to Bethel as
pastor start talking Civil Rights?
ALDRICH GUNN: NO, it was mostly trying to get you to put your
thinking cap on and he was encouraging the young folks and wanted
to do for the young folks . He encouraged them to go to school and
get an education . One of the main things I said was when I saw him
take the attitude in leadership was to stop that store down there.
But as far as just speaking -- I doubt, you know, just to say this
was planned or he thought about it , I think over the night some
incidents that happened and sometimes its better for a man to be
just cool .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you think spurred him to begin? Is there
a specific incident? Like the Supreme Court decision in 1954?
ALDRICH GUNN , I 'm quite sure that was one . But I know another
one . Now he was very energetic in getting people to vote. At that
time we had a poll tax but when I voted , I remember coming out of
the Army , after I was out of the Army -- this was even before I was
a member over there -- he was encouraging people to go down and
6
vote . You had commissioners down there. I never shall forget when
I went to vote down there . I went in there and I learned a lesson
the hard way. I went in there and they didn ' t even realize I was
there. Then he looked up and wanted to know what I wanted . I say
"yeah" and they said "no. " He asked me , he said, "how many seeds in
a watermelon? " I told him 456. He told me to get out of there and
don ' t come back within a year . A month later I went down there
humb l e . Yes sir. They talked . I mean they sat there with me and
talked about different things. Just general things before they
looked up at me. That was then . My father - in- law I remember, I
think he paid about $68.00 to be able to vote. But it was
something . We made it. It was a challenge and I learned -- but it
was wisdom then . Because I learned my stubbornness , smartness ,
didn ' t get anything . I wanted to be a voter so I was -- it worked.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me about your becoming a deacon .
ALDRICH GUNN: Shuttlesworth -- I always have attended Sunday school
and church . After we sat down -- I wasn ' t even thinking about them
putting me on the board . One day I was up at the house there .
Brother N. J . Davis, an old deacon here , he came up there and he
told me , "Aldrich , I ' ve known you and I've been looking at you
we ' re talking about some young deacons -- we ' ve talked about it and
we have mentioned you. " So Shuttlesworth, I think there were about
six of us ordained at that time. It was something that I didn ' t
even have the slightest idea it was about to happen. Then he came
and talked with them and got them through training and told us some
of the things which we were going to try to do. About that time he
7
did mention that he wanted it to be men , and l ook out for the elder
folks -- women and things -- want to stand up and give support .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What about voting?
ALDRICH GUNN : Voting?
ANDREW M. MANIS : Register to vote?
ALDRICH GUNN: Most of us along that line at that time was actually
-- that was something he menti oned from the pulpit just about every
Sunday -- qualify to vote . I remember one year Bull Connor won the
election by less than I would say 15 and that was a great (cannot
hear). Because some people couldn ' t vote . So that ' s why we should
make votes count .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What do your remember about Reverend
Shuttlesworth ' s preaching?
ALDRICH GUNN: He was a fiery preacher . But Reverend Shuttleswor th
he was - - he put you -- he would teach by parables . He desired
that all of his members would respect one another and respect all
mankind but yet he would say in order to be respected if you had to
give respect . He said because you want something that don ' t mean
you go knocking over a person for it . You could do that but some
of the things you get into -- he would set example for you .
Preaching e xamples for you as to how to carry your Christian life .
He would encourage mostly the men to try to get out and encourage
children to go to school -- his ministry was a full forceful
ministry. It wass ' t a fire and brimstone ministry . Mostly in
parables . He would always relate .
ANDREW M. MANIS : I 'm not sure of the difference there . Explain
8
the difference between fire and brimstone ministry and parable
ministry .
ALDRI CH GUNN: Well , that ' s when , you know , different people have
a chance to voice in how they go and how they preach . They preach
from the Bible the way to carry their voice , see . But then ,
Reverend Shuttlesworth , when he ' s preaching to you , he would preach
from the Bible but he would preach it where you could have an
understanding . If he talked about the Jordan River , he would g i ve
an example . He talked about things often . He talked about the Red
Sea , you ' ve got to cross it you know . He would come back with some
of these things about the Red Sea and go on and explai n how you
have a faith and he will stand here and show you where you can . If
God did it for the children he can do it for you . That ' s how you
have faith in the Lord . That was mostly what he based his action
on . Of course , sometimes -- Reverend Shuttlesworth was concerned
about all his people , regardless if something happened or who you
were . He would call somebody and say go see about the sick . He
was just constantly at the house or something . He was a minister
that could communicate with the flock.
ANDREW M. HANIS : Did he have generally good relationships with the
people in the church?
ALDRICH GUNN : He had good relations with the people in the church .
As you got on i nto the tough of the thing some fellows got actually
frightened , you know. Of course you know that that was back there
in the fifties then . Some of them got afraid about this property
over here .
9
ANDREW M. MANIS : Can you recall any conflict between Shuttlesworth
and church members?
ALDRICH GUNN : Specifically , when you get down to the brass tacks ,
I 'm talking about the people , the leaders of the church , I 'm
talking about the leaders and the followers , too . You had some who
wanted to come and talk to him about how to ?? him or how to take
care of yourself , something ' s gonna happen to you . Everybody
showed their concern in some ways . Some showed it in just a way
that Fred something is going to happen to you. When the church was
bombed and when it actually got down to the rocks and bricks of it ,
all of a sudden when the church was bombed , I was the first member
of the church -- I don ' t remember exactly where but I remember that
night -- I don ' t remember whether it was Christmas .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Christmas 1956 . Christmas night .
ALDRI CH GUNN : It was Christmas . He had a l i ttle Christmas tree .
I never shall forget when I walked over there I thought "I don ' t
see how any man could walk out of that ." The Christmas tree was
standing . The Bible is , and I 'm talking about , flattened? Do you
understand what I mean , flattened? I ' ve been to Ko r ea and I ' ve
seen things . That place , that thing , was , I 'm talking about flat .
Everything else was flat . Less than , I ' ll tell you the police were
very efficient. They pulled up the ropes and made you get back .
They made you get back. But you know some things happen l i ke that
you just don ' t see . It was a challenge just going in there and
seeing -- that didn ' t do nothing but make me know God was real ,
when you saw how he came out . It motivated me that I was just
10
fol l owing somebody on the right road . Because God brought him
through something like that . And I 'm not talking about something
somebody t old me about . I saw that . Once you see things like that
and the man come out and he was out there laughing now . Carrying
on . More than that , making fun . Let ' s see , was that a Saturday?
It was the close of the weekend . Well , one of these bombings -­that
' s one bombing but that church house was bombed three or four
times . Now?? was bombed five or six . I 'm not talking about the
ones we don ' t know about . But I r emember one time it was bombed on
a Saturday and we came out there all of them was mopping and he
said "Get in here , we ' re going to have church in the morning ."
That's when all t he wi ndows was lost . We had some of the best
services we ever had in that church . Right after the bombing , we
got out there that night and swept it , cleaned it out , picked up
the glass and everything and there was a packed house the next
morning .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you remember about that service?
ALDRICH GUNN : It was a very se rious service . It was hard, you
know . There was lots of meditating and good praying . Just
thankful that the Lord brought us through. The mere fact that he
was standi ng there was a living exampl e of what God could do . And
I think those people -- it uplifted peopl e and motivated a lot of
people that God could bring us through these things . That ' s the
first time I had ever heard of somebody bombing a church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did he talk about fighting segregation in
Sunday's sermons?
11
ALDRICH GUNN : He said the walls would have to come down . He
wanted most of al l, when Reverend would talk about segregation and
all these different things I think it was a gradual thing . The
first thing he wanted us to do was this votin ' thing . That's what
he wanted us to do. But at the same time you start that you had
confrontations about the bus and the schools and then the bus when
we started boycotting the bus.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Tell me about that . You said you --
ALDRICH GUNN: One Thursday I was at home and Reverend called me
and he said "Aldrich," -- I had moved across town . "I would like
for you to pick two good men and meet me at Tabernacle. " That was
on 11th Avenue and 26th Street. He said , "Don ' t park your car
around the church . Park your car away from the church and walk up
here . " I got Brother Jones and Brother Davis. Brother Davis is
dead now . They were o lde r than I was . They were people who
understood . So we went down there that night. We parked on 25th
Street and 12th Avenue. It wasn ' t like a meeting was there. The
only thing there was, was one candle on . Somebody had a light that
was reading. He said he wanted us to boycott the buses .
Streetcars then. They had some leaflets and they wanted to get
them out that night. He had people from allover town and we
distributed l eaflets and we got that out by word of hand that
night . We put them on peoples porches and encouraged them to
boycott the s treetcars . I remember now, that was how that got
started . It took a while . It didn ' t take but a while the next
morning when the people got up . Some of them didn ' t . Some of them
12
had to go across the mountain . They had shuttle service for them
to go across the mountain and go to your job . Other people had
made preparation . The next day it was even better because people
had had time to make preparation. From that you got into that
struggle . Then he decides to challenge the board . You know, you
tell the Black -- colored and white colored board white . He
went up there and sat in front of the board . Right now the bus is
running by Bethel Baptist Church . There wasn ' t but one bus runnin '
out here. Didn't even go to town . It ran from North Birmingham to
East Birmingham down here on 24th . That ' s the only way you could
communicate unless you took a cab . That was some of the things you
can see here .
ANDREW M. MAN I S : Were you a bona fide , dues paying member of the
Alabama Christian Movement?
ALDRICH GUNN : I had my card , yeah . I didn ' t miss meetin ' s of the
Christian Movement. It was just like going to church Monday night.
You looked forward to it and it was a challenge. Everybody looked
at the Movement as a Civil Rights thing. But actually the Movement
was Black (cannot hear ) you ' ve got some good teachin I and
preachin ' there. And then , like I say , you had people come up with
the fire and brimstone and then you had the people who came -­Abernathy
would come out and get the emotionally disturbed .
Psychological, you know, work up your -- and tell you about the
things you know what ' s happenin ' you know . Then he would bring
King out there and it would be the setup of Shuttlesworth would
come behind, like that after the Movement, Alabama Christian
13
Movement was set up . Shuttlesworth would come out and that was
even before then . Shuttl esworth would get up there and tell you
about his experience and each day he would have a new one to tel l
you . Some you would wonder how, where was he at the time when some
of the things happened to him or almost happened to him .
miracle the man is still alive .
It is a
ANDREW M. MANIS : What kind of things did you - - did you go by
yourself?
ALDRICH GUNN: No , I had a 1952 Chevrolet coupe . There were four
or five of us regular that would go. I would put five others in
the car and they would come around when I came home and we ' d leave
out early .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did your wife go?
ALDRICH GUNN : Oh , yeah , at least two or three times a month she
would go . We had the kids out of the house . Get somebody like my
mother and father . During the Alabama Christian Movement when
Reverend was carrying on and everything , well , like some big event
had happened you know , you ' d just have to leave almost at 3 : 00 to
get there at the 1 1 : 00 service if you want to get a seat for your
wife. Because you ' ll probably end up on the outside looking in .
She would go all she could .
financia l ly .
We would support it all we could
ANDREW M. MANIS : What percentage of the members of the chur ch were
active attenders at the mass meetings?
ALDRICH GUNN: I don ' t know the percentage but if you look at it
from a men ' s point of view , you know, I have to look at that
14
because at different times maybe almost the church would be there .
I know the choir . The young choir was vigorous and could sing.
They would tear it up . I doubt if there is a person over there -­I
couldn ' t name one that didn ' t ever go to the Movement . I didn't
know any. But some were scared . They would pray for you and tell
you things and give you littl e things.
ANDREW M. MANIS : As a person who went every week , how did you and
others who went ever y week , how did you get along or respond or
interact with the people who you felt should have gone?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well, I wasn ' t hostile to any of them , because I got
another understanding of individuals. Each man has to determine
what he wants to do for himself . Everybody has their way. Some of
the same peoples if you would listen at them pray you know their
desire. They just don't have the gumption as you would call it.
They just don ' t have any gumption. There ' s no doubt that some of
them don't have any backbone . You have to respect them because you
understand . They act like -- I ' ve seen some of them cry about the
things you tell them about . It was just that kind and you and some
of them that didn ' t -- was concerned about the Movement and didn ' t
want to get so locked up in it - - afraid of what was happeni n' ,
afraid what would happen to the church, afraid what would happen to
the individual , afraid what woul d happen to the Reverend . Some of
them was just hostile. I tell you, you can have many men along
that line. You had men that wouldn ' t go. But if something big
happen , then you see everybody. It would be just like they had
been there all their life to let them tell it. I look now at some
15
of the people who get up and tell you about the Movement, you know.
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned that for you , going to a mass
meeting was like going to church.
ALDRICH GUNN: Yeah , I got a satisfaction out of it. I got a good
satisfaction because you could see so many people . It would give
you a gleam of hope and as I look back on it now, and I can see we
have a Black mayor and all these things, I can say Shuttlesworth
was the one who brought voter registration and this is some of the
fruits . But you know some of us like to have instant coffee . We
don't have the patience to work for the fruits of patience .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Some would say that even the constitution of the
Alabama Christian Movement didn ' t seem very patient. It said , "we
want our freedom now, we ' ve already waited a hundred years. "
ALDRICH GUNN : Sure but , I 'm talking about the r esults. I 'm not
t alking about what you desire now . Sure you want but now you reap.
It ' s just like the mayor's election coming up now. He has
cultivated the land and the next four years are going to be reaping
the harvest because he knows where the bathroom is now . He had to
find these things , see , and this year , to get back to that , it
takes patience in this society of ours.
ANDREW M. MANIS: In what way did you think or why did you think
Reverend Shuttlesworth saw Civil Rights as a part of his ministry
and as a part of the Gospel?
ALDRICH GUNN : He was concerned for his people, and when I say that
basically, I actually don ' t think that was his mission. Those were
just some o f the things that was done. And some of the
16
confrontations made h i m to do other things . I don ' t think it was
his mission to just go out and say , that is to sit down and say ,
you know how you sit down and you plan something . I don ' t think it
was in the planning . I think it just came up by some of the
results of the little things which he wanted to achieve . And he
said why ask for the apple when I should have part of the tree?
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did he see that as part of his calli ng?
ALDRI CH GUNN : Well , aft er he got into it the law will show you ,
you know t he law is for all mankind . You realize that . Bu t when
we compare back there in the fifties and late sixties up until now
and the conditions whi ch we considered then, you have the des i re to
do things , and IIwhy can ' t I do this? " Or , "why can ' t we accomplish
this? II It wasn ' t because it was you or likely you. It was because
it was laws . See , laws was the barriers then. He went out and
decided he would chall enge the laws .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Tell me what you remember about the decis i on to
post guards outside the church .
ALDRI CH GUNN: Well , when you realized you was out the r e in combat ,
that ' s when you see bombs going off and see I had just got back
from Korea . Yong Don Pho , Pusan , Inchon . All those p l aces . I 'm
tellin ' you I saw that happen . I was right back in combat .
ANDREW M. MANIS : When was it decided?
ALDRICH GUNN , It was decided that night . That ' s how the thing
worked .
see it .
night .
You know decis i ons like that don ' t be decidin ' once you
It just peopl e who were going to stay out there all
17
ANDREW M. MANIS: Just somebody spontaneous --
ALDRICH GUNN: Yeah , then you set up by organizing it , you see . As
it went along we decided what to do and then winter set in on us
and at the Revis home we got together and they put those windows on
there and used it for the guard house . It was just like those
posts in Korea . You go out on relief and hope . I remember one
night when a fellow named John Lewis -- some lady came home and
said "There ' s a bucket down on the side of the house. " He went
down there . It wasn ' t a house over in that field . He threw it
over there less than five seconds and oh, everything blew apart.
Somebody had set a bucket of dynamite right against the church . He
ran down there and got i t. You look at the fraction of a second if
he had hesitated . I might have hesitated and it would have been
too late. But God protected us.
ANDREW M. HANIS : Do you remember when that was?
ALDRICH GUNN : About 1965 or 1966 , something like that.
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned the police .
ALDRICH GUNN : When you stand guard , the police now, they made a
circle. They patrolled too. But it was just like you didn ' t have
the assurance of the officers. I will say that wholeheartedly .
You got some nice officers, always got some nice officers, and then
you have some officers and they was quite natural, they was
protectin ' the status quo . You was a threat to their way of life
because you didn ' t have a Black policeman in the ranks . You didn ' t
have a Black janitor at that time . But they would patrol and they
would pass in the car but whenever they start to come into the lot
18
something pretty soon would happen . You better say that again .
And if you got a gun and they catch you with a gun they ' ll put you
in jail when you are protecting your place .
ANDREW M. MANIS : So all these guards had guns?
ALDRICH GUNN : Not all of them.
ANDREW M. MANIS : You mentioned the policemen.
ALDRICH GUNN : They would patrol . Especially before something
happened and after something happened . When something happened ,
they would come in with authority and take a rope and block it off .
And they don ' t want you to go near it because they got to
investigate . You can understand that .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you remember about the incident when
Reverend Shuttlesworth was attacked at Phillips High School .
ALDRICH GUNN: I wasn ' t there . I wasn ' t there . I learned about
that when I got home --
ANDREW M. MANIS : What was the church ' s response to that?
ALDRICH GUNN : When he was attacked at Phillips High School , mostly
now when you are attacked , see , most of the men , when they found
out he had been whipped with them chains , now, you know how you get
all temperamental and everything but then you hear some people talk
over there at the church you know they want to start -- to let it
go , because it has start hurtin ' you know - - you have to look out
in the conflice then and some were afraid that they might be next.
But you have a lot of mens and everything , especially in the
Movement and the guard and everything . It was an emotional thing .
His wife was up there . She was stabbed in the side . These are
19
things which you don ' t talk about. Lots of things were done . It ' s
not the first time he had been hurt . Over there at Smi thfi e l d they
shot a man .
over there .
Over there at Arthur Shores place , they shot a man
They was talking about the resembl ance of him and
Shuttlesworth . I'm talking hearsay . I didn ' t see this but they
was talking about how close he resembled Shuttlesworth .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did the people in the church have a sense of
wanting to minister to Shuttlesworth and his family when something
like that happened?
ALDRICH GUNN : Oh , it would bring him everything . You know, and
not only in the church , but when something like that happened , that
house would just be filled and then again I remember one time when
I got over there and the phone rang and I answered it and this guy
was telling me what he was going to do next , you know, on the phone
and you still had that , you know . Well , I didn ' t tell nobody
about that. I said a few things I shouldn ' t have , you know. I
hung up . But I remember that . We was over there when something
had happened .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What did he say?
ALDRICH GUNN: He said it would be "worse than that next time ,
nigger " and he was going to bomb something else . And that was
right after the bombing . All the people were there and some of the
women were crying and carrying on . It kind of upset me and
everything. He said " It ' s going to be worse than that next time ,
nigger ." He said a few little things and I listened . I said
something to him which was foolish at this time and he hung up .
20
ANDREW M. MANIS : Tell me what he said and what you said .
ALDRICH GUNN: Well , I never will forget because the phone was
ringing and it was right there in the hall and I picked it up . He
said "Is this that Nigger Shuttlesworth I shouse? " Then he said
" It ' s gonna be worse than that next , nigger ." I said, "Well, you
tell your mother . " I hung the phone up. That's what I said . I
never will forget , I was qu i ck- tongued at that age and everything
else . But I didn ' t even say nothin ' to nobody about it except --I
forgot but someone was with me and I told him what was said but to
get out and broadcast it, I didn ' t .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did you ever tell Shuttlesworth?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , I don ' t think I even mentioned anything to Fred
about that . Because next time we was over there I was back there
in that little office and found out some of the things that
actually needed to get set up and I think -- set up and try to
protect ourselves because actually , you know , the police wasn't
protecting us. Of course they would always have that good little
speech.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember when his daughters and Fred, Jr .,
were . .
ALDRICH GUNN: On the bus?
ANDREW M. MANIS : up in Gadsden and got arrested?
ALDRICH GUNN , No , I missed that . I don ' t know where I was that
night . But when I got home they said they had called out there
somebody called and said they understand he had gone to Gadsden so
I came down here and they said Fred said "come Hell or high water"
21
he was going . He left. Because if he say he is going to jump out
that window, you might as well get a net . I didn 't go to Gadsden
with him. Somebody said they had them on the Greyhound bus. I
tell you another thing I remember was the time the Freedom Riders -
- at Easter time when the Freedom Riders carne through here . After
those fellows got here , and someone called over to the house and
told my wife that some that Reverend Mooley was corning and he
mentioned it in the service , I think , the Freedom Riders and could
somebody put up some of them for that night? They let him know .
There was two of them . I went home and I told my wife and , at that
time our first child was expected , and I told my wife and she said
"Yeah , we can take two ." I went and got them and a fellow was from
Virginia and he ' s been back here since then. He wen t on and
finished school and he is doing well. I forget what his name was .
I think it was Bernard. But he stayed and he talked about the
ordeal and actually how frightened he was. There was some trouble
up there . And at the bus station down here. It was Easter time.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Mother ' s Day .
ALDRICH GUNN: Mother I S Day . I knew it was some holiday . But
there was a very sad event then .
ANDREW M. MANIS :
to you?
ALDRICH GUNN:
How was it arranged for the Freedom Rider to get
Well , they carne to the parsonage over there next
door . As they was there, I called down there and I talked to Mrs .
Shuttlesworth . We just communicated . I called her "Ruby " you
know. I was young then and I told her I would take two . When I
22
got there they were ready . So I said ride on the inside. Other
peoples was coming to pick them up. But I carried them over there
to the house .
ANDREW M. MANIS : They spent the night?
ALDRICH GUNN : They spent the night with me .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were they whites?
ALDRICH GUNN: One was white and one was black . It just inspired
me to know what encouraged them to do it. Young man in school and
had his be l iefs but he sai d he didn ' t believe it would get this
bad. I asked him about his family . One was for it and one was
against it . I don ' t remember what - - he wasn ' t Bernard . I don ' t
remember what his name was . But we stayed up and talked a while.
We let them rest that night and they stayed on over until the next
day before I got back home they was over here and they was on their
way .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Anything else you remember about your
conversations with them?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , I think it was just they were talking and just
laying it out they were afraid they wouldn ' t make it down here
after they saw the things that was happenin '. Mostly we talked
about the homes and concerns about the family. My wife wanted to
know why they would do such a thing as that and they said they
wanted to get on with it and I think one of them said he had been
on several of them . He said it was the worst when he got to
Alabama . Those were the basic things . That was some time ago .
ANDREW t-l . MANIS : About the big demonstrations in 1963 , you
23
probably got
ALDRICH GUNN : The big demonstrations just show you how some people
well , some people looked forward to it. It was a thrill . Scene
of wit . And the dogs. Some guy would take a gyp (dog in heat ) --
a guy called "Cool " he was down there, he would wipe the dog ' s
"private parts " with a rag and attach it to a stick to get the
attention of the police dogs . The dogs lose attention when they
see the female dogs . Those dogs were having a fit to get that gyp.
That was one of the different things . And one fellow -- I don ' t
know what he hit that dog with but I saw a fellow kill a dog down
there . But killing a dog was just like killing a man. The law
said if you kill a dog you get death . I didn ' t see it but I saw
the dog . If you kill that dog you have to leave town.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did you participate in the demonstrations?
ALDRICH GUNN: Yeah , I was down there with the water hose and
everything . Yeah I saw about three. You know you think about what
was happening .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were you close to where Shuttlesworth was during
the demonstrations?
ALDRICH GUNN : No , I was five or six lines back or something like
that . When the water -- you didn ' t have no position then when they
turned the hose on that night. They had this tank. They had this
armored car . It patrolled the command post . When they came out
firemen had those hose , the velocity would just knock you down .
They ' d get up runnin ' and laugh . Some of them was hurt . A lot of
people was hurt because the police was hi ttin' folks in the head
24
with them billy clubs. It was quite an experience . Some of them
was wounded pretty bad. But that dog -- after seeing that dog I
was telling you about , I didn ' t see that when it was going on . I
didn ' t see that.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Were you close enough to Shuttlesworth to be
privy to anything that was going on , any pl anning for the
demonstrations?
ALDRICH GUNN : I remember the first night when they decided to see
about the Christian Movement . You had some preachers , you had some
ministers and they met right in the church i n an office there .
They decided they was going to meet at Sardis Baptist Church over
on the Smithfield side . They had some kind of ministers ' alliance
which had been there al l their lives and they were in
communication . They told Fred they would have contact with the
elected officials and he was saying that we didn ' t need no other
organization . Shuttlesworth said , "Well , Hell , we j ust need one . "
In that meeting all of them except I think it was a Dr . Ware -- he
was opposed . So they got over there and they had a constitution
and everythi ng fo r ratification over there at Sardis Baptist Church
on the Southside and that night what they d i d more people stood in
line for that meeting . That was when they first organized the
Movement, Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights , and they
came up with that . I never shall f orget the emphasis on which Ware
was studying why was another one needed and Reverend Shuttlesworth
made the statement "Yes , we have one , but what has it done and what
have the peoples achieved? " That blotted out Ware . Then we were
25
on our way down then . Dr . Ware was trying to show the l ogic in it
and he said "somebody is going to get killed ." He said , "they ' re
still getting killed now and you 're not doin ' anything . "
were some of the things that stood out with me .
Those
ANDREW M. MANIS : What do you think Shuttlesworth ' s role was in the
1963 demonstrati on? Did King and the Southern Christian Leadership
Conference just sort of take the thing over from him?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , you ' ve got to remember one thing. King
couldn ' t have done what Shuttlesworth did i n Birmingham. If there
weren ' t a Shuttlesworth where was King? It ' s just l ike
Shuttlesworth laid the groundwork here while King , you know, that
crowd in Montgomery got it , but Shuttlesworth -- the things he had
to put up with here and the people who you were dealing with, it
took Fred for Bull and it took Bull for Fred. Some other minister
dealing with Connor was wouldn ' t be successful . Without a man like
Fred , he would laugh and all, but he went on and do what he say he
gonna do and take the chance . I think it were more help to the
Movement was these different bombings . They thought they was
fight i n ' but it was nothing but a chain -- a link and chain . Now
when you talk about you have people who have a doubt about
something -- you let somebody go out and do something like that and
everybody know its wrong and no justice , you know, where other
people be telling its just a feeling to come back and bomb a church
you don ' t do nothin ' but link peoples closer together and make a
tighter bond . And when you got into , of course , Reverend King,
mind great and everything , love to go hear him speak , but actually
26
when you got down, its just like any command post, you have
excellent sort of command , you know , and then you have the people
in the field. Fred was just one who liked to stay in the field.
He believed in direct action .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What about Shuttlesworth's decision to leave
Bethel?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well, I don ' t know when Shuttlesworth - - things was
getting kind of tight on him here in Birmingham . Real tight down
here . People actually got scared down here .
had someone who called me from Cincinnati .
I understood -- I
They called me or
called someone and said "Reverend has decided he is going to leave
Birmingham and take a church in Cincinnati. " When I saw him I
asked him . He said he is going to speak about that at 11 : 00 ,
whatever he decide to do . There were those who said "\Y'hatever"
some felt joy and relief, some of them , they felt the joy and
relief because they thought the battle was going to be over but
they felt sadness -- these people , wishy- washy . All of them at
that time saw some of the things. He could have gotten churches
around here . I reckon he was just considering his family . As far
as himself , he didn ' t care . But he had his daughters and his wife
and everything .
ANDREW M. MANIS : Was there any conflict in the church? Reuben
Davis said something about there might have been some debate about
whether or not in a sense he should be pastoring both churches at
the same time . Do you recall anything like that?
ALDRICH GUNN : Well , actually, what he was doing - - he hadn ' t
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accepted the church . We talked about that. That wouldn 't have
worked out had he accepted the church . He just went up there to
let the people hear him preach. Then they called him back . When
they called him he said he wanted to stay a little while to get his
business straightened out . Now I can understand that . I was
behind Reverend under those circumstances wholeheartedly . He had
his business to get straightened up here so he could get on up
there .
ANDREW M. MANIS : There was a time in which Mr . Davis publicly
questioned the fact that he had wanted a ninety- day transition
period .
ALDRICH GUNN : Yeah , he wanted ninety days. That was too long.
Ninety days was too long . We talked to him concerning that . Not
only Reuben but quite a few of us . But we wouldn ' t stand for
ninety days . We wanted to give him a reasonable time. Ninety days
for you to be in and out .
ANDREW M. MANIS: So what did .
ALDRICH GUNN: I forgot how much time we gave but he said that he
guaranteed whatever it was that he would pick up it was less
than thirty days after he said he was going on to Cincinnati . But
we talked about the ninety days and it was too long.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me what you think were -- in what ways did
Shuttlesworth influence this church the most?
ALDRICH GUNN : He built this church . You had more youth at this
church during Shuttlesworth ' s administration . You had more youth.
You had more programs for the sick and the old. Things would
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propel him into the limelight for whatever . The record speaks for
i tsel f.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did he influence you?
ALDRICH GUNN : As a leader. You know a lots of peoples talk about
it but he was one who would talk about it and then act . Some
things I would rather say he wouldn ' t do but I find that if
Reverend say he ' s gonna do it , you might as well look for it
because he was gonna do it. When he ' d be t alking the Movement and
he felt that it needs to be done if "I got to go to jail by myself.
I think we should do this. " These are the things as far as -- he
wasn ' t one that would tell you something and then do something
else , or tell you something and wouldn ' t follow through on it . He
would talk to you about it. He would talk to you one on one . You
might as well tell him the t ruth cause I 'm not gonna be a
hypocrite . He would tell you something whether you like it or not .
Whatever he decided to do he was gonna do . He would often go out ,
I tell you what, he would go out and he would do g r eat things , and
he would go out and be gone . He would do anything about getting
things done . Those are some of the things -- redo the church , put
the windows and things back in, lots of things like that , but his
decision to leave I think was mostly when his wife started getting
physically taxed. She stayed mighty sick. That was more worse
than the change I think. It wasn ' t worse than the change but to
her as a lady , he was more concerned about her . He would call us
together and we would call him together and talk about his leaving
and when he said ninety days we got together and talked about it .
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