I have read many opinions on the way of attacks in aikido, the tsuki etc. So many saying that the 'hanging the arm out there' is wrong, is not in any other martial art, is ridiculous, is..............

Too many reasons yet in my view not enough understanding.

As usual the justifications come in as to why such attacking is unreal and some even go as far as to say 'limp' and ineffective. Oh yea of little faith is what I say.

The first point that is continually brought up is commitment, the idea that such attacks are not committed attacks. Another fallacy I say due to once again a lack of understanding of Aikido.

Now it takes time to develop and be able to do such an attack whilst keeping center and at the same time extending Ki or power through but nonetheless the attack is a tsuki or shomen or yokomen etc.

There is no need to compare to boxing or anything else that bounces too and fro or jostles in and out or thrusts and counter thrusts or ducks and weaves or anything really, no need at all. For they are not Aikido and the attacks in Aikido are unique and unique for a reason. Does anyone know what that reason is?

Once again I am going out on a limb here, (limb being the operative word ha, ha) but this time I am not going to say what the reason is but leave it as a question. So in summary I am saying the following:

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.

Thoughts?

Regards.G.

DodgingRain

02-05-2012, 04:35 PM

Awesome.

..but what happens if a boxer or trained striker is head hunting you?

Janet Rosen

02-05-2012, 04:56 PM

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

I strongly disagree.
There is a reason that EVERY decent aikido instructor I've ever been on the mat with, from any style or lineage, in everything from beginners class to advanced seminar, explicitly talks about having BOTH arms/hands engaged and "live."
Part of it, yes, is martial and self-defense effectiveness.

But even if your avowed goal in learning and teaching aikido is spiritual rather than martial....
the integrity of the body/mind system, awareness of self/universe, connecting with one's partner ALL require the ability to be aware of one's entire body: front, back, up, down, left and right. Unless one lacks the limb or has had neurological damage to it (stroke, other disorder), a disengaged and limp extremity is a symptom of a disengaged, non-integrated system choosing to be self-impaired.

Easy to test. Try a simple irimi-tenkan kokyu-ho throw (forgetting the name of the exercise since it's not called that where I train now....) with the ungrabbed arm limply sitting versus engaged. It feels like working less than 1/2 a body.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-05-2012, 05:28 PM

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.
In some aikido styles, but not in others.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.
And?
3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.
The basic reason is?

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.
The basic reason you mentioned before?

Ah, I got it...

The answer to the question "Does anyone know what that reason is?" is developing aikido practitioners who are incompetent as martial artists

sakumeikan

02-05-2012, 05:30 PM

I have read many opinions on the way of attacks in aikido, the tsuki etc. So many saying that the 'hanging the arm out there' is wrong, is not in any other martial art, is ridiculous, is..............

Too many reasons yet in my view not enough understanding.

As usual the justifications come in as to why such attacking is unreal and some even go as far as to say 'limp' and ineffective. Oh yea of little faith is what I say.

The first point that is continually brought up is commitment, the idea that such attacks are not committed attacks. Another fallacy I say due to once again a lack of understanding of Aikido.

Now it takes time to develop and be able to do such an attack whilst keeping center and at the same time extending Ki or power through but nonetheless the attack is a tsuki or shomen or yokomen etc.

There is no need to compare to boxing or anything else that bounces too and fro or jostles in and out or thrusts and counter thrusts or ducks and weaves or anything really, no need at all. For they are not Aikido and the attacks in Aikido are unique and unique for a reason. Does anyone know what that reason is?

Once again I am going out on a limb here, (limb being the operative word ha, ha) but this time I am not going to say what the reason is but leave it as a question. So in summary I am saying the following:

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.

Thoughts?

Regards.G.
Dear Graham,
Come on be a good lad Graham and tell us answer to the question. Cheers, Joe

graham christian

02-05-2012, 07:01 PM

I strongly disagree.
There is a reason that EVERY decent aikido instructor I've ever been on the mat with, from any style or lineage, in everything from beginners class to advanced seminar, explicitly talks about having BOTH arms/hands engaged and "live."
Part of it, yes, is martial and self-defense effectiveness.

But even if your avowed goal in learning and teaching aikido is spiritual rather than martial....
the integrity of the body/mind system, awareness of self/universe, connecting with one's partner ALL require the ability to be aware of one's entire body: front, back, up, down, left and right. Unless one lacks the limb or has had neurological damage to it (stroke, other disorder), a disengaged and limp extremity is a symptom of a disengaged, non-integrated system choosing to be self-impaired.

Easy to test. Try a simple irimi-tenkan kokyu-ho throw (forgetting the name of the exercise since it's not called that where I train now....) with the ungrabbed arm limply sitting versus engaged. It feels like working less than 1/2 a body.

Nothing to disagree with. Both arms would be 'live' , 3mph live or fast live. No undermining of integrity of of body/mind coordination. No undermining of awareness either.

That move you describe can be done one handed too, very difficult but nonetheless true.

So I'm not talking about 'nothing there' for I have said they are 'strikes'

I am also not talking about internal or mind/body coordination for if a person is advanced enough at that then a mere tap or prod would be enough to cause great effect. No, I am talking why? Why such attacks in Aikido? There are not many when you think about it. Plus, on their own as tsuki, shomen, yokomen, there is no emphsasis on 'meanwhile guard with your other hand' In fact I would get someone to keep their other hand or arm well out of the way even if 'live'.

Two hands 'live' is in fact more pertinent to uke than to nage in most respects.

I seek only to establish why? To know the why? of such attacks in Aikido. The real why?

This why? also gives a nice differentiation as to why it is martial and has nothing to do with competing or fighting. My view of it anyway.

I shall read the other responses and then explain my point of view.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-05-2012, 07:03 PM

Awesome.

..but what happens if a boxer or trained striker is head hunting you?

In my view then you do Aikido, what else?

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-05-2012, 07:04 PM

In some aikido styles, but not in others.

And?

The basic reason is?

The basic reason you mentioned before?

Ah, I got it...

The answer to the question "Does anyone know what that reason is?" is developing aikido practitioners who are incompetent as martial artists

Nice try Demetrio, oh isn't this fun?

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-05-2012, 07:08 PM

Dear Graham,
Come on be a good lad Graham and tell us answer to the question. Cheers, Joe

O.K. Joe, how could I resist such an old school request ha, ha. I shall do so in my next post.

Regards.G.

robin_jet_alt

02-05-2012, 08:46 PM

O.K. Joe, how could I resist such an old school request ha, ha. I shall do so in my next post.

Regards.G.

Waiting with baited breath.... not sure that I understood the question though :confused:

graham christian

02-05-2012, 08:52 PM

O.K. Excuse me for my little bit of fun but it was also because it's one of those things that I read about on here and yet the reasons I never agree with so I was moved to express such.

Many a person or student, especially from another art have said to me in the past 'yeah but' Such a common statement when it comes to Aikido attacks. They are usually followed by 'then I would do this or that' for you leave yourself open and the usual comments.

As an aside the same thing happens with nikkyo or or whatever. The experienced person from another art says do that again and proceeds to do all kinds of clever manoevers. However, this is just another example of me saying to the person, woah there buddy, I am showing you nikkyo for you to learn how to do it, not to show how clever you are. This would then be followed by, 'Now if you want me to show you nikkyo and give you the right to counter it how you please then prepare for the consequences but in so doing you will not learn how to do it but merely suffer the consequence. At least the effectiveness will then be felt.

Now, attacks. Aikido attacks. What do they represent? This is the first thing to recognise.

It can only be recognised by looking from the viewpoint of energy or power if you like coming at you.

Until you recognise this then you are wasting your time.

Next is to recognise that this power or energy is coming at you along a predetermined path. To know these paths is to know the attack.

For instance Shomen: A cut down and through. Energy coming at you from up to down along center line

Yokomen: Energy (with attendant mass) coming at you on the diagonal.

Tsuki: Energy coming at you straight through center line.

Note that the straight through tsuki is a straight line of power. The yokomen is actually circular in effect as is the shomen. (like the hands of a clock)

So these are motions and Aikido being a harmonious martial art deals with motion, harmonizing with motion.

So we have here harmonizing with straight line energy and harmonizing with circular energy.

We have here thus the basics of the straight jab in boxing, the roundhouse kick, the right hook, and all other strikes for they are merely versions of the above. They are straight or they are curved.

With circular you enter into the center of the circle or else keep outside the circle. With straight line you irimi to enter or via ma ai once again you keep out of range. They are the hard to learn simplicities.

But now back to the basic. So far we see they 'represent' types of attack motion wise. Even the spear is straight through, the sword is circular, etc. Aikido as a martial art.

Aikido is a discipline and it is stated that there is no fighting in Aikido. Aikido has a little mentioned thing called ma ai. When faced by a person feigning to do this or that, boxing, kung fu, whatever, in other words when trying to be drawn into a fight the the discipline of Aikido says keep ma ai. Thus no fight.

Meanwhile the discipline says stay calm, relaxed, zanshin, centered and the rest of it whilst keeping ma ai and wait for an 'opening' to enter and finish the encounter. No fighting, no give and take rigmorole, no clever tactics, no rolling around, no sparring, wait, enter, finish. That is the martial of Aikido and differenciates martial from fighting and competition for me.

Which brings us to the point rather nicely. When waiting for the opening, when using ma ai, what exactly are you waiting for? This word 'opening' is far too vague a term really from an Aikido perspective. Far too open to various high foluted opinions. You are not actually waiting for an opening so in truth what are you waiting for?

You are waiting for commitment. Aikido deals with commitment. Someone bouncing around in front of you doing all kinds of feints and rubbish has not yet committed and it is only the committed attack Aikido is interested in.

Commitment means motion through. Through where? Through you.

So it doesn't mean loud shout or power punching or hitting even, it means doing so with motion through. This doesn't mean through with the strike only it means through with yourself also, the rest of your body.

We used to say albeit probably incorrectly, that anyone punching through and yet the body stopping was doing a karate tsuki, not Aikido for Aikido is carry on through. We would say he who doesn't is dead and that they have earthed their Ki and thus easy to handle.

Any true swordsmsn does not cut and stop. they cut on their way through.

In Aikido tsuki you do not just hit through you carry on through to the 'wall' This is commitment, it is complete.

Thus it can be done at walking pace. You can tsuki through and carry on 'walking' through very slowly even. It may look crazy from the outside but you are getting the nage to deal with continued motion and power, to deal with commitment.

So commitment is moving on through and out the other side and that is all. The attacks in Aikido should represent this and this rules out hitting at or even doing to for it is doing through.

So what does Aikido do? It deals only with that point of commitment, nothing else. Aikido harmonizes with the point of commitment.

The attack therefore be it slow or fast represents commitment, non stopping motion through, the whole body, going from point 'a' through to point 'b'

If someone says to me to demonstrate tsuki, even slowly then I am moving from center (point 'a') on through to the wall twenty feet away (point 'b') and thus I carry on moving until I reach that point. The other persons body is of no significance.

In this way in Aikido you learn to deal with the unstopping motion and you learn to know when one is and when one isn't. It's not a matter of ferocity or strength but purely motion through.

In other words you enter the others space, circle in order to strike and you should end up out the other side of their space, this is commitment, this is the Aikido attack.

These are my thoughts and views.

Regards.G.

gates

02-05-2012, 11:55 PM

Your point is clear and I agree in essence, however for me it is not quite the end of the story.
For example should we be able to face a fast stabbing motion, which doesn't continue through, but rather, is sharp and recoils as quickly as it was delivered?
If you only practice one way.......

graham christian

02-06-2012, 03:01 AM

Your point is clear and I agree in essence, however for me it is not quite the end of the story.
For example should we be able to face a fast stabbing motion, which doesn't continue through, but rather, is sharp and recoils as quickly as it was delivered?
If you only practice one way.......

Good question. The simple answer is yes. The premise is that this 'one way' as you call it is very universal in essence and thus in my opinion perfectly designed for all types of attacks, for it is as I said based on motion. The knife stabbing motion and indeed slashing motion is still only motion.

My best answer with a degree of reality is just such an event a few months ago where that question was posed at the end of training due to one person showing some knife moves using a tanto.

This led to the group asking me how Aikido should deal with that. As usual I said, 'I don't know, let's see'

I started by facing the opponent and moving with every stab and slash he made, just keeping ma-ai basically whilst studying the the 'opponent' and 'way of the knife' so to speak. I then said for him to stop and because I was laughing they wondered what I had realized.

I said I wanted to try something first as the motions of the knife wealder reminded me of a snake.I then asked him to 'go for it again' and proceeded to move differently from before. This time I was joining in with the rhythm and as he quickly stabbed and recoiled this time I had his wrist nice and cleanly. I did that twice in succession and then explained what I had done.

I told them that what I did there was not strictly Aikido but more like kung fu. Viewing only the rhythm and motions which then looked just like those of a snake I had laughed and decided I would be like a mongoose. It worked. Both times it worked and both times I had the snake by the neck.

I then proceeded by saying 'o.k. now that was fun but now I will use Aikido'

Both times in that demo I did as described above in the last post. I waited (ma ai,). entered and took him out. Wait, enter, finish. The martial side of Aikido. My aim was not to fight the knife or avoid the knife or pay much attention to it at all really except to acknowledge it's danger. My focus was on harmonizing with the motion and in so doing entering and finishing. My focus there is not the knife but the source of the knife only.

So that's not an example of a master knife man or even me, it's given as an example of the above post.

May I add here too that Aikido motion is key. Aikido motion or the philosophy and rules thereof say that the one initial motion should take you to a position of safety and put the 'opponent' in a position of 'done for' at the same time. This is Aikido. The fight is over before it's begun.

Regards.G.

gates

02-06-2012, 03:08 AM

Oh the old mongoose defense. Very good.
But this did require a trial run. On the street is it not likely you can say " hold on I need to work which animal to personify"

Better to have already engrained the Mongoose defense. Which requires practice, no?

graham christian

02-06-2012, 03:47 AM

Oh the old mongoose defense. Very good.
But this did require a trial run. On the street is it not likely you can say " hold on I need to work which animal to personify"

Better to have already engrained the Mongoose defense. Which requires practice, no?

Pardon? Forget the mongoose. The mongoose thing was fun, not Aikido. The Aikido took no practice.

Dojo or street makes no difference, ma-ai, enter, finish. That's the martial side of Aikido, any motion of attack, anywhere, anytime. A high degree of skill needed, small steps long journey, but nonetheless that is the Aim martially. Thus better to engrain the principles of Aikido first.

Regards.G.

lbb

02-06-2012, 07:58 AM

Someone's going to take all this advice and end up on the bad end of an almighty beat-down because they expect things to magically come together when needed without any prior practice.

graham christian

02-06-2012, 08:06 AM

Someone's going to take all this advice and end up on the bad end of an almighty beat-down because they expect things to magically come together when needed without any prior practice.

Oh dear. Note above I said it's better to get the principles ingrained first. (small steps long journey?)

Of course, anyone could do any style and think they are ready and get a good beat down because they think it is already together.

Levels of competence? Need it be said?

Regards.G.

DH

02-06-2012, 10:10 AM

I see nothing to be gained martially, Ki wise, or aiki wise, in anything outlined here. Worse when it is outlined authoritatively as in ...we who disagree don't get it. I might suggest that in my own experience everyone who ever taught or advocated that type of practice has ended up on their backs in a split second or literally taken apart in a myriad of ways. It is not....budo. It is something else, apart from the teachings of Morihei Ueshiba, who was a budo man. Those speaking of his methods yet display none of his abilities, only continue to demonstrate that what they "say" has little actual value.

Again IME, there are a host of practices done in the name of budo that are done by fearful people rationalizing in every way possible why they shy away from force on force contact. In the end the practice is usually exposed for what it is. I prefer those who practice this way, but who do so with honesty, with no illusion, those who know they would get totally owned by capable men, yet enjoy their cooperative interaction. There is no helping the self-deluded who truly believe what they are doing has anything at all to do with the world of Budo. Well, there was, but that method is frowned upon these days.

What has happened to Budo in this generation is a great sadness. Budo was self-correcting, as idiots showed up with lofty ideas backed up by Fauntleroy skills they were done away with rapidly, so you never need worry about them contaminating the value and reputation of the arts. Even at advanced expert levels you had senior teachers out there testing senior teachers. It is one area in which the Japanese could take a lesson from the Chinese. It is not only acceptable, it is encouraged to challenge people speaking authoritatively and or teaching, to walk up and test them in some agreed upon fashion. Of course it was not usually an all out fight, but it didn't need to be to make the point.

Today you have those with insipid skills, impressing others with even less skill, who then become teachers, and manage their supposed "budo" careers by never getting in a situation to be challenged by any one other than their own students! One of the best things that could ever happen to Budo would be to have the politically correct mores suspended, the old founders show up and challenge....and clean house.

Put or shut up has been a staple for a very long time. I think many people in the traditional arts really don't have anything worth listening to, much less following anymore. It is obvious in video, the written word and in feel, that they have been going through the motions for far too long. Putting them to the test, would be the best thing to ever happen to Budo.
a. Everyone who dared to speak authoritatively would know what the consequences would be.
b. The arts themselves would be strengthened by the elimination of bad ideas and worthless methods, while those with brilliant approaches-either traditional or innovative- will stand on their own merits.

Dan

DH

02-06-2012, 10:37 AM

Edit:
It is worthy to note-yet again- that Ueshiba himself adopted and forwarded "The put up or shut up..." method. Were Budo people to follow that ideal, there would be fewer of us...but we would be better, and the arts would be better for it. The arts are supposed to be greater than us.
In fact, were Ueshiba not known for taking challanges. None of you would be here. It is his Budo that made his reputation with people from outside of his dojo who attacked him, people who sometimes go hurt.
He did it -by his own words- with internal power and Aiki.
Instead of borrowing his reputation...make one yourselves the same way he did: Put up or shut up. Most of those we admire have actually done that in rooms with people other than their own students.
Dan

sorokod

02-06-2012, 10:58 AM

Perhaps these "hanging the arm out there' "attacks" are misunderstood / degenerate form of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8&t=3m20s ?

jonreading

02-06-2012, 11:27 AM

...So in summary I am saying the following:

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.

Thoughts?

Regards.G.

1. Attacks that provide a clear line and provide nage with energy for interaction are not incorrect. The ability to provide that attack with limitation to the [over]extension of uke and the ability to withdraw or continue the attack in another direction is a direct reflection on uke's competence in martial engagement. While not wrong, I think it is better to advocate that uke's who are limited in their ability to continue an attack should work to improve that deficiency.

2. Strikes in all martial are are generally intended to strike the opponent and solicit a response. The limitation of nage to deal with a stylized attack is a reflection of his competency in martial engagement. Again, saying that aikido people do not have to be competent to deal with stylized attacks from other arts is not wrong, but I would advocate that aikido people should learn to deal with any kind of attack.

3. No. Here I think we have difference. Any attack must posses intent, commitment, power and speed. You can vary the amounts of each, but an attack that lacks these traits would not solicit a response from a competent martial artist. If your attack does not solicit a response then it is not a provocation.

4. I am not sure I know what this means. There is a level of complexity that may confuse observers, much like a magic trick to the unlearned magician. However, to a competent martial artist there should be some expectation for that observer to reverse-engineer the demonstration to ascertain what is going on. I am not sure claiming that if you witness a feat that does not appear to be sound martial technique, then you just don't know what is going on.

Aikido is a specialization art, not doubt about it. I think for hobbyists and passionate enthusiasts you can get through without a martial education and exposure to sister arts (and there educational experiences). However, how could more education be harmful? If you can perform aikido on an incompetent uke, why would you not try to perform aikido on a competent one?

This is not budo as I understand it, and it certainly limits the type of training you can enjoy. This posts almost reads like it is excusing poor uke waza and justifying why nage should feel they are receiving a complete training experience. What training is there in throwing someone who is incapable of stopping me?

The observation I make for "poor attacks" in aikido is that they are indicative of a disjointed, unbalanced movement incapable of soliciting a response from the intended target. "Limp arm" is a symptom of a poor attack.

The problem aikido faces with sister arts is that the distance and timing are different. The ability to respond to attacks from other arts is linked to the ability to adjust our distance and timing. Weapons work is one of the methods aikido people use to understand the necessity to alter our timing and distance for different interactions.

I think the subsequent follow-up post to the initial post uses "bobbing and weaving". A boxer bobs and weaves to create an opening to strike or defend (or perhaps a jab). The inability to accelerate our timing to the speed of a boxer is a reflection on our ability, not a denigration of the boxer's stylized attack.

Another example used in the follow-up post is that of a swordsmen's cut. The inability for aikiken to accelerate our timing to defend against an initial cut and then the second cut is a reflection of our sword skills, not our partner's ability to quickly perform multiple cuts.

If you want to advocate that aikido starts with the basics of dealing with stylized [aikido] attacks, fine. But I think we need to be careful about stating that all you need to deal with in aikido are stylized [aikido] attacks. I use my aikido far more dealing with verbal attacks than I do physical ones. Unless your dojo practice shouting at each other about money, or apologizing to your spouse, or confronting your boss, then I think we need to be saying "aikido is about dealing with any attack." This is budo as I understand it.

http://youtu.be/3CGMWlXosp4
This reminded me so much of this thread...OMG

mathewjgano

02-06-2012, 11:54 AM

Perhaps these "hanging the arm out there' "attacks" are misunderstood / degenerate form of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8&t=3m20s ?

You beat me to it.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.
And often by the practicioner as well, of course...I can't speak to the majorty of times, though as I have not had exposure to the majority of times people do this.

kewms

02-06-2012, 12:34 PM

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

Umm... The loudest criticism of such attacks that I have heard has come from aikido rokudans with experience in other arts. Are you saying those people are ill-informed?

Katherine

chillzATL

02-06-2012, 12:44 PM

I would agree with some of what Graham says, for a 5th kyu maybe 4th. Beyond that I'm not sure why anyone would still want an attack like that, much less deliver one in that manner. If I can simply move and you're going to run through to the wall or spin yourself to the ground, why would I need to do anything? I can just move, let you fall and feel good about myself that I made that happen? No thanks. I'm not interested in that and was never taught that. I'll have to let my instructor know that his years of training under Ueshiba and others has only led to heaps of misunderstanding.

kewms

02-06-2012, 12:44 PM

Aikido is a discipline and it is stated that there is no fighting in Aikido. Aikido has a little mentioned thing called ma ai. When faced by a person feigning to do this or that, boxing, kung fu, whatever, in other words when trying to be drawn into a fight the the discipline of Aikido says keep ma ai. Thus no fight.

Ma ai is by no means unique to aikido, or even to Japanese arts.

"Keeping ma ai" while waiting for an opening sounds like a good way to get yourself backed into an untenable situation, though.

Katherine

phitruong

02-06-2012, 12:53 PM

http://youtu.be/3CGMWlXosp4
This reminded me so much of this thread...OMG

nope. not that one. this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWlJndr3BKE&feature=related

:D

Demetrio Cereijo

02-06-2012, 01:08 PM

And this one too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M_36uhUSFI

graham christian

02-06-2012, 01:20 PM

1. Attacks that provide a clear line and provide nage with energy for interaction are not incorrect. The ability to provide that attack with limitation to the [over]extension of uke and the ability to withdraw or continue the attack in another direction is a direct reflection on uke's competence in martial engagement. While not wrong, I think it is better to advocate that uke's who are limited in their ability to continue an attack should work to improve that deficiency.

2. Strikes in all martial are are generally intended to strike the opponent and solicit a response. The limitation of nage to deal with a stylized attack is a reflection of his competency in martial engagement. Again, saying that aikido people do not have to be competent to deal with stylized attacks from other arts is not wrong, but I would advocate that aikido people should learn to deal with any kind of attack.

3. No. Here I think we have difference. Any attack must posses intent, commitment, power and speed. You can vary the amounts of each, but an attack that lacks these traits would not solicit a response from a competent martial artist. If your attack does not solicit a response then it is not a provocation.

4. I am not sure I know what this means. There is a level of complexity that may confuse observers, much like a magic trick to the unlearned magician. However, to a competent martial artist there should be some expectation for that observer to reverse-engineer the demonstration to ascertain what is going on. I am not sure claiming that if you witness a feat that does not appear to be sound martial technique, then you just don't know what is going on.

Aikido is a specialization art, not doubt about it. I think for hobbyists and passionate enthusiasts you can get through without a martial education and exposure to sister arts (and there educational experiences). However, how could more education be harmful? If you can perform aikido on an incompetent uke, why would you not try to perform aikido on a competent one?

This is not budo as I understand it, and it certainly limits the type of training you can enjoy. This posts almost reads like it is excusing poor uke waza and justifying why nage should feel they are receiving a complete training experience. What training is there in throwing someone who is incapable of stopping me?

The observation I make for "poor attacks" in aikido is that they are indicative of a disjointed, unbalanced movement incapable of soliciting a response from the intended target. "Limp arm" is a symptom of a poor attack.

The problem aikido faces with sister arts is that the distance and timing are different. The ability to respond to attacks from other arts is linked to the ability to adjust our distance and timing. Weapons work is one of the methods aikido people use to understand the necessity to alter our timing and distance for different interactions.

I think the subsequent follow-up post to the initial post uses "bobbing and weaving". A boxer bobs and weaves to create an opening to strike or defend (or perhaps a jab). The inability to accelerate our timing to the speed of a boxer is a reflection on our ability, not a denigration of the boxer's stylized attack.

Another example used in the follow-up post is that of a swordsmen's cut. The inability for aikiken to accelerate our timing to defend against an initial cut and then the second cut is a reflection of our sword skills, not our partner's ability to quickly perform multiple cuts.

If you want to advocate that aikido starts with the basics of dealing with stylized [aikido] attacks, fine. But I think we need to be careful about stating that all you need to deal with in aikido are stylized [aikido] attacks. I use my aikido far more dealing with verbal attacks than I do physical ones. Unless your dojo practice shouting at each other about money, or apologizing to your spouse, or confronting your boss, then I think we need to be saying "aikido is about dealing with any attack." This is budo as I understand it.

http://youtu.be/3CGMWlXosp4
This reminded me so much of this thread...OMG

Hi Jon.
A considered response, thank you.

1) I advocate through is Aikido. As to ukes ability to so do or change direction etc. is a different matter, different subject. That's more to do with after nage has moved which is after the attack is done or commenced. More a next phase I would say.

2) I thought that's what I said. But anyway, yes.

3) Provocation to me is merely a type of attack and could include half hearted taps. So not sure about that. I think we do have a difference there for I say it's motion through continuing on. I say Aikido deals with motion as far as attacks go, fast, slow, whatever. Dealing with a very slow attack from the viewpoint of harmony and harmonizing with can be a fruitful excercise.

4) You kind of answered that one yourself. The eyes only see the physical result, the rest is assumption. The onlooker can only 'rationalize' it according to their experience.

Using the term 'competent martial artist' who can deconstuct, reverse engineer what's going on to me is very 'loose' if that's the right word in my opinion. A competent martial artist in that particular style, yes. Of course there will be exceptions.

Education is harmful? Perish the thought.

Incompetent uke vs. competent uke? Que?????

Personally I see no difference in distance and timing regarding sister arts as correct distance is correct distance and timing is timing.

The distances change to do with weapons or even people with longer limbs but all that's changed really is the circle size, the reach distance.

I don't use the term stylized attacks I use the term motion, motion and direction.

My whole point is to see any attack as such and forget the physical form. Therefore no more stylized anything just a representation of energy or power and direction.

Energy motion, the ways of, no more no less. Ineffective energy motion, dangerous energy motion, makes no difference. You cannot change the laws regarding how energy moves thus these laws, these principles are to be learned.

Verbal attacks, physical attacks, emotional attacks, all part and parcel yes I agree.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-06-2012, 01:27 PM

Umm... The loudest criticism of such attacks that I have heard has come from aikido rokudans with experience in other arts. Are you saying those people are ill-informed?

Katherine

Loudness equals what? What about the appreciations?

Regards.G.

DH

02-06-2012, 01:29 PM

Well.......I'm glad the jokes got off of -JUST- aikido. I could post some real ones from actual classes that are...too me anyway...just as funny. But only the comedians new that they were being funny.:o :o

The only thing funnier is seeng some people call themselves sensei and call themselves martial--artists, when all evidence points to the contrary on both counts.
Dan

graham christian

02-06-2012, 01:32 PM

Ma ai is by no means unique to aikido, or even to Japanese arts.

"Keeping ma ai" while waiting for an opening sounds like a good way to get yourself backed into an untenable situation, though.

Katherine

I can see ma ai in operation in many arts and sports. What they call it in each one I wouldn't know.

Ma-ai equals backed up in an untenable situation? Methinks not. As I said, a rarely emphasized thing. Dare I say commonly misunderstood????? Perish the thought.

Regards.G.

kewms

02-06-2012, 01:45 PM

I can see ma ai in operation in many arts and sports. What they call it in each one I wouldn't know.

Ma-ai equals backed up in an untenable situation? Methinks not. As I said, a rarely emphasized thing. Dare I say commonly misunderstood????? Perish the thought.

"Rarely emphasized?" Well, my current teacher only mentions it a few times a week, but I don't know if you could call that "rare."

In any case, if a person approaches within a distance you find uncomfortable, you don't really have many choices.

You can back up, "maintaining ma ai." Which will eventually put you in a bad position.

You can stand your ground, and take some action to respond to their approach. Which isn't "wrong," but doesn't "maintain ma ai," either.

You might consider the closely related concept of "de ai," the "critical interval." At this distance, the parties are no longer "safe," and are effectively forced to either enter or retreat.

I know you weren't talking about weapons, but weapons provide the simplest illustration. A person is walking toward you with a sword held in seigan stance. There is no overt "attack," they're just walking, but they do have three feet of sharpened steel aimed at your throat. You can't just stand there.

What do you do? You can step back: they follow. You can step to the side: they follow. Or you can enter, and in so doing force them into a reaction.

Katherine

kewms

02-06-2012, 01:50 PM

Loudness equals what? What about the appreciations?

Regards.G.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're asking here.

My question was very simple: are the aikido rokudans who criticize the attacks commonly seen in aikido dojos "misinformed?"

Katherine

Chris Li

02-06-2012, 01:55 PM

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're asking here.

My question was very simple: are the aikido rokudans who criticize the attacks commonly seen in aikido dojos "misinformed?"

Katherine

I think that he's saying that you're only emphasizing the negative, how about the people who praise Aikido attacks? OTOH, I don't think that I've ever heard anyone actually praise attacks in Aikido...

Best,

Chris

DH

02-06-2012, 01:57 PM

Loudness equals what? What about the appreciations?

Regards.G.
None what-so-ever that I have heard...ever.
And the methods you espouse here and other threads like it are just simply not any Budo that Aikido people I know recognize, not too mention many others in different arts.
You seem to be rather unique in your ideas.
I would suggest were you looking for affirmation or validation for your rather unique methods you might best look to newbies. I don't know anyone I would consider competent who agrees with this method of training. Most Aikido teachers I have met are openly derisive or dismiss it altogether.

Dan

graham christian

02-06-2012, 02:02 PM

"Rarely emphasized?" Well, my current teacher only mentions it a few times a week, but I don't know if you could call that "rare."

In any case, if a person approaches within a distance you find uncomfortable, you don't really have many choices.

You can back up, "maintaining ma ai." Which will eventually put you in a bad position.

You can stand your ground, and take some action to respond to their approach. Which isn't "wrong," but doesn't "maintain ma ai," either.

You might consider the closely related concept of "de ai," the "critical interval." At this distance, the parties are no longer "safe," and are effectively forced to either enter or retreat.

I know you weren't talking about weapons, but weapons provide the simplest illustration. A person is walking toward you with a sword held in seigan stance. There is no overt "attack," they're just walking, but they do have three feet of sharpened steel aimed at your throat. You can't just stand there.

What do you do? You can step back: they follow. You can step to the side: they follow. Or you can enter, and in so doing force them into a reaction.

Katherine

De ai? I suppose you could call it such, I call it timing, but see what you mean. Ma ai does not mean back up so I fail to see that.

I can watch a boxer keeping ma ai and in the end get a warning for not fighting. Boxers are very good at keeping ma ai and most times in a circular fashion. All sensible martial artists use it and enter when the 'opening' presents itself or they cause one to.

The opposite of ma ai is not standing your ground so you lose me there also.

What do you do with a swordsman? Depends how good you are at keeping ma ai doesn't it?

De ai? I suppose you could call it such, I call it timing, but see what you mean. Ma ai does not mean back up so I fail to see that.

I can watch a boxer keeping ma ai and in the end get a warning for not fighting. Boxers are very good at keeping ma ai and most times in a circular fashion. All sensible martial artists use it and enter when the 'opening' presents itself or they cause one to.

The opposite of ma ai is not standing your ground so you lose me there also.

What do you do with a swordsman? Depends how good you are at keeping ma ai doesn't it?

Regards.G.
You are implying that your methods can handle a boxer?
Someone skilled in sword?
MMA?
Is this what you are saying?
Can we get a simply yes or no from you?
Dan

graham christian

02-06-2012, 02:16 PM

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're asking here.

My question was very simple: are the aikido rokudans who criticize the attacks commonly seen in aikido dojos "misinformed?"

Katherine

It's self evident isn't it? I used the words 'those who' if I remember correctly. Being a generality in as much as there are always some examples that fit with what anyone wants to say. You append it to who you like.

Regards.G.

DH

02-06-2012, 02:17 PM

Please folks, fewer honest, direct responses and more passive-aggressive shots. You'll get your answers then.
Hi Jason
Sorry, I don't know how to do the passive / agressive slights...
But then again, they don't know how to do direct answers. :D :D

Dan

Demetrio Cereijo

02-06-2012, 02:25 PM

What do you do with a swordsman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGg_F7s7xg

graham christian

02-06-2012, 02:26 PM

None what-so-ever that I have heard...ever.
And the methods you espouse here and other threads like it are just simply not any Budo that Aikido people I know recognize, not too mention many others in different arts.
You seem to be rather unique in your ideas.
I would suggest were you looking for affirmation or validation for your rather unique methods you might best look to newbies. I don't know anyone I would consider competent who agrees with this method of training. Most Aikido teachers I have met are openly derisive or dismiss it altogether.

Dan

Rather unique, I like that.

I look for? No. I share, yes. I am interested in the responses, yes.

Regards.G.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-06-2012, 02:50 PM

Rather unique, I like that.

Why?

kewms

02-06-2012, 03:27 PM

De ai? I suppose you could call it such, I call it timing, but see what you mean. Ma ai does not mean back up so I fail to see that.

I can watch a boxer keeping ma ai and in the end get a warning for not fighting. Boxers are very good at keeping ma ai and most times in a circular fashion. All sensible martial artists use it and enter when the 'opening' presents itself or they cause one to.

The opposite of ma ai is not standing your ground so you lose me there also.

What do you do with a swordsman? Depends how good you are at keeping ma ai doesn't it?

Ma ai is a noun, not a verb. It simply describes the distance at which both parties are "safe:" neither can actually strike the other without moving. As such, it doesn't really have an "opposite." There are smaller intervals, and larger intervals, but *some* interval always exists.

It is true that ma ai doesn't mean "back up." Backing up is just one way to adjust the distance. My point, however, is that it is not always possible to simply "maintain ma ai" indefinitely. The terrain may not allow it, or you may be in a multiple attacker situation, or your movement may be limited by the need to protect another person. Rather than pretending such situations don't exist, please explain how you approach them.

Katherine

kewms

02-06-2012, 03:29 PM

I think that he's saying that you're only emphasizing the negative, how about the people who praise Aikido attacks? OTOH, I don't think that I've ever heard anyone actually praise attacks in Aikido...

Exactly. Were he -- or anyone else -- to actually produce such an individual, I would consider the source and think about how to respond. Absent an example... *shrug*.

Katherine

graham christian

02-06-2012, 03:59 PM

Ma ai is a noun, not a verb. It simply describes the distance at which both parties are "safe:" neither can actually strike the other without moving. As such, it doesn't really have an "opposite." There are smaller intervals, and larger intervals, but *some* interval always exists.

It is true that ma ai doesn't mean "back up." Backing up is just one way to adjust the distance. My point, however, is that it is not always possible to simply "maintain ma ai" indefinitely. The terrain may not allow it, or you may be in a multiple attacker situation, or your movement may be limited by the need to protect another person. Rather than pretending such situations don't exist, please explain how you approach them.

Katherine

I don't know what you mean. Noun, verb? Keep implies movement. Intervals? Again don't know what you mean. Opposite keeping ma ai to me is not keeping ma ai.

All these maybes. I'm pretending nothing thank you.

The paths ie: eight directions, circles, triangles, aid the ability to keep ma ai in all kind of situations. All part of the art of motion.

As to if a position exists where you cannot keep ma ai the it's obvious it would then depend on your ability to enter well wouldn't it? I don't see where you are going with this, if anywhere.

This only increases my belief that maybe more drills are needed on these aspects by some.

A drill where all you are allowed to do is keep ma ai, no matter what or how the person is attacking and then progress to multiple. Then maybe you will end up with a surprising reality, that it is possible.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-06-2012, 04:16 PM

Why?

Why not? Your short sharp responses are rather unique I find. You must like it too.

Unique or sheep? Mmmmm. To me every single person in the world is unique, I like their uniqueness.

So, 'they' say this or no one I know says that or rokkus say the other doesn't really mean anything to me.

He's a 'boxer' or he's a tenth dan or she's an Aikikai Sandan, to me means first and foremost he or she is a person no different to me.

My friends and associates give their own views on matters and don't hide behind what someone else says or said.

Unique, a lovely word.

Regards.G.

Keith Larman

02-06-2012, 04:19 PM

Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.

kewms

02-06-2012, 04:37 PM

As to if a position exists where you cannot keep ma ai the it's obvious it would then depend on your ability to enter well wouldn't it?

I would think so. Happy to see you agree.

I raised the point in the first place because you seemed to claim that "keep ma ai" was a sufficient response for most (if not all) situations, and indeed that doing so is the central insight of aikido. I apologize if I have misinterpreted your position.

Katherine

Marc Abrams

02-06-2012, 04:48 PM

Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.

Keith,
Good Luck with that set of questions! :D :D :D

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Walter Martindale

02-06-2012, 04:50 PM

I'd understood ma-ai to mean 'proper distance' moreso than 'safe distance'.. i.e., ma-ai to deliver a blow is different from ma-ai to avoid a blow. Ma-ai with swords is different from that with tanto. Ma-ai for iriminage is VERY close to uke. Ma-ai for kotegaeshi is farther away... But gaijin desu and I don't speak Nihongo so good...

An example - a friend of mine described a ma-ai exercise with swords - cutting apples in half from a quick draw in seiza - with the apple held between the chin and the sternum... Ya gotta know your distance for that one or it's your last practice - ever.
W

graham christian

02-06-2012, 06:14 PM

Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.

Having seen all the various reactions on here to 'martial' I don't think that term has any fixed meaning among martial artists by the look of it. So what do I say?

Aikido is a martial art. I think everyone in the world would agree give or take.

I do Aikido so obviously yes. As to others opinions as to how martial then I leave them with their opinions. C'est la vie.

Transcending martial? Now there is a new comment I've never seen but I think I know where you are coming from by saying it.

Many labels are extant in the annuls of martial arts to do with spiritual levels of all kinds so that tends to rule out transcending martial from that perspective. Take shimmejutsu etc.

Transcending fixed views or fixed ways due to different realizations and thus ways of doing then partly yes.

It's an interesting word.

I merely say what I do, what my views are, what I find, actually the views I share with others of my acquaintance.

I don't think in terms of transcending but using that word in retrospect then all I can say is that from a self developement point of view for me and others we have transcended many old fixed views and conditions so that's true. As far as Aikido goes in action then we have done the same over the years and transcended many fixed views and fixed ways of doing Aikido too so from that perspective yes too.

As far as the spiritual side goes I do and have contested that the understanding of that side helps exponentially in the understanding and doing of it. Nothing new there from me.

As far as me personally then I have outlined my past briefly, I have thus developed my own style of Aikido and those who have done it loved it, found it useful in both personal, life and 'martial' situations.

For me that's all I needed to know. For me that's all I need to know. Then as in life or rather on anyones path a new phenomenon comes along.

Suddenly there are people in a 'computer world' who say they don't know what I'm talking about or telling me what I am talking about, experts on me and my Aikido or else wondering all kinds of things about it. A new, strange phenomenon. As with virtually everything in life for me whether good or bad I find it interesting and that's the only word I can use.

Either way along this little path or project of communicating on a forum I was sure I would find out more about the scene worldwide and more importantly more about myself. The more about myself is one of the main reasons I am still on here actually.

I have one confession to make actually which only happened last week. An epiphany if you like. The students at Aikido were crowded around me with interest as to this latest 'thing' as they are all well aware of Aikiweb and read it often but don't join.

I realized that this 'outside world of Aikido' was there, wanting something from me, but hadn't got a clue why. I'm telling you that's what happened and it hit me like a bolt out of the blue, I didn't know why.

On describing this to the others and the feelings that came with it some of them burst out laughing and I was the only one not getting the joke. So I couldn't help but laugh with them.

I'll tell you at one point during this realization or realization part 1 so to speak my body had started shaking for no apparent reason. Wow. this was interesting and I sat down and went into meditation mode to face what this phenomenon was. The trigger was Aikiweb for some reason. The strong feeling I found myself facing I finally recognised as fear. I did with it what I do in Aikido really, I joined it. There it was like it was looking at me and I was looking at it, that's the only way I can describe it. I joined it in order to see what it was about. As it cleared found out and yet still it didn't quite make sense to me. They want me to show them something and I don't know why was the realization. Followed by what the hell did fear have to do with it.

This definitely gave me something to contemplate and as it cleared more and more all yhe significance fell away and a shiny simplicity took its place. Wow, that was good I thought.

The simplicity was that that big organizational world of Aikido, the one my teacher wanted nothing to do with, the one I wanted nothing to do with was asking me to have something to do with.

It was like a massive shift had happened I didn't understand fully yet felt exceptionally good.

Nothing logical fitted with regards to the fear factor as my mind went over all the incidents and people and weapons and crazy near death experiences I'd been through in the past and handled with Aikido without any such fear. I'd met many who said they were such and such a dan and well too many to mention and never had a problem so this didn't add up.

Thus my students and son and brother in law were laughing. They proceede to try to get me to recognise that last little bit that I appeared not to be seeing. My final piece came through listening to my son. He said he recognised the type of feeling I was describing and said it reminded him of when he first played saxaphone to a massive audience at the royal opera house. That hit home and he said he wished he had a camera with him at that moment. He explained how he had been playing for so many years, everyone knew and heard him, he played at parties and clubs and pubs but that was different, the same different that didn't make sense to me now.

So once again I learned something about myself I was unaware of.

To them, knowing me it made perfect sense. They proceeded to tell me how it's not me to want any big stage, hobnobbing with any 'stars' or people of 'rep' or performing of any kind. It's so not you was their conclusion and that's why they were laughing, because they could see how that would be my button.

Give me a lion to fight, it's much easier. Anyway, we had a good nights training and I even had them doing drills blindfold. All good fun.

So Keith, there's an insight into where I am coming from.

So now, having seen and confronted that button I know only that I will meet different people from this 'outside' world of Aikiweb Aikido and thus it will lead to something on my path. Who knows what. All I know is I will enjoy the moment as usual. I will be myself and still prefer to be the silent center making sure everyone else improves and has a good time.

That's all. I think ha, ha.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-07-2012, 05:25 AM

Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.

Oh, because of the word transcend then I must add this.

I believe Ueshibas Aikido transcended that internal stuff. I believe the principles of what I do transcend, go beyond that too.

Regards.G.

gates

02-07-2012, 07:08 AM

Oh, because of the word transcend then I must add this.

I believe Ueshibas Aikido transcended that internal stuff. I believe the principles of what I do transcend, go beyond that too.

Regards.G.

FYI
The common understanding of transcending something implies you have a complete and absolute understanding of it.

I am not sure that is what you mean? Unless this is a deliberate attempt to rub people up the wrong way. I am not sure you intend to do this either?
Respectfully,
Keith

graham christian

02-07-2012, 07:48 AM

FYI
The common understanding of transcending something implies you have a complete and absolute understanding of it.

I am not sure that is what you mean? Unless this is a deliberate attempt to rub people up the wrong way. I am not sure you intend to do this either?
Respectfully,
Keith

With regard to Ueshiba then I mean transcended. Your definition is limited above. Complete understanding could be knowing. Transcending implies understanding and going beyond.

The fact some people are 'rubbed up the wrong way' by such comments lies with them, not me. In all spiritual disciplines from yoga, to zen to whatever it is a word that rubs no one up the wrong way.

The spiritual is the core of Aikido, it transcends the physical, full stop.

I apply spiritual principles, quite well actually, and these transcend the usual physical ways.

I am sure others to various extents do too but you will find those that do understand there is no fighting or 'combat' involved. They understand better what Ueshiba meant when he said such things.

Different understanding.

I have said before that an attack is actually not aikido so the person attacking is doing so just so that you can practice Aikido. Attacks are merely part of the practice and yet low and behold the attacker can also learn at the same time. This also fits with statements by Ueshiba which you either understand one way or understand another. I understand that statement of there are no attacks in Aikido. It's not a 'logical' statement, it's a spiritual one. You can call it a philosophical one if you like, in fact you can call it whatever you like, but do you understand it? That's all.

Should you understand it? Maybe, maybe not. I do. There is no more significance to it than that.

Should you agree with me? No. There is no should involved in my communication.

Regards.G.

Keith Larman

02-07-2012, 09:02 AM

Well, I get where you're coming from, or at least I think I do. I don't see it at all... Best of luck.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-07-2012, 09:56 AM

Why not? Your short sharp responses are rather unique I find. You must like it too.

Unique or sheep? Mmmmm. To me every single person in the world is unique, I like their uniqueness.

Sheep look the same to people who don't know, but they are unique too.

On the other side, sometimes people who considers themselves "unique" are totally mainstream but they don't want to see it. Like "rebellious" teens all dressed the same, listening to the same music, same mannierisms...

IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?

chillzATL

02-07-2012, 10:02 AM

IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?

Actually we're already back to the 80s. The 70's are so last year.

graham christian

02-07-2012, 10:45 AM

Sheep look the same to people who don't know, but they are unique too.

On the other side, sometimes people who considers themselves "unique" are totally mainstream but they don't want to see it. Like "rebellious" teens all dressed the same, listening to the same music, same mannierisms...

IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?

The fact they 'consider' themselves unique whilst all dressing the same or whatever just shows they miss the truth in what they are saying.

Outdated eh? Mmmm. think I'll get my afro back...

Regards.G.

philipsmith

02-07-2012, 10:55 AM

t that big organizational world of Aikido, the one my teacher wanted nothing to do with, the one I wanted nothing to do with was asking me to have something to do with.

Regards.G.

If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?

This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact

Demetrio Cereijo

02-07-2012, 11:16 AM

Actually we're already back to the 80s

Duran Duran were not so bad... :D

DH

02-07-2012, 12:04 PM

Sheep look the same to people who don't know, but they are unique too.
On the other side, sometimes people who considers themselves "unique" are totally mainstream but they don't want to see it. Like "rebellious" teens all dressed the same, listening to the same music, same mannierisms...
IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?
I disagree
I haven't seen any teacher in Aikido who handles a sword or that has both attacks and responses that look like, Graham. Maybe you guys are more informed then me. I have been on the mats with big name people, watched thousands of hours of video, and watched maybe a hundred kids classes.
I can't for the life of me see any real attack or defense happening anywhere.

If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?
This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact
Interesting isn't it.
Example: I have never seen anyone who moves like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt-aqDPqF7M&feature=related) with a sword. I don't recognize it as a budo, and I can't get him to explain how he thinks it will work with people... from Budo.
Since ya'll are discussing aikido attacks, I am trying to follow along on why he is talking about attack and defense but doesn't show it in any video and keeps starting threads. Again, his movement seems unique in all of Aikido to me, which is why he clearly states that not only does no one get it, they cannot converse with him when he talks about attacks and responses. Those are his words. I guess this will all remain hypothetical until he actually engages the budo community on its own terms of attack and defense and we find out where his unique theories function within the norms of budo.
One thing is for sure. A suprise will be in store for either party because the methods are dramatically different.
Dan

phitruong

02-07-2012, 12:07 PM

Duran Duran were not so bad... :D

don't go there! don't make me bring out Wham! (hmm... the sound of an attack) you need to transcend the 70s and 80s. :D

graham christian

02-07-2012, 12:08 PM

If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?

This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact

Independent doesn't equal isolated. How many reasons would you like? How many do you have?

Or am I Missing your point?

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-07-2012, 12:17 PM

I disagree
I haven't seen any teacher in Aikido who handles a sword or that has both attacks and responses that look like, Graham. Maybe you guys are more informed then me. I have been on the mats with big name people, watched thousands of hours of video, and watched maybe a hundred kids classes.
I can't for the life of me see any real attack or defense happening anywhere.

Interesting isn't it.
Example: I have never seen anyone who moves like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt-aqDPqF7M&feature=related) with a sword. I don't recognize it as a budo, and I can't get him to explain how he thinks it will work with people... from Budo.
Since ya'll are discussing aikido attacks, I am trying to follow along on why he is talking about attack and defense but doesn't show it in any video and keeps starting threads. Again, his movement seems unique in all of Aikido to me, which is why he clearly states that not only does no one get it, they cannot converse with him when he talks about attacks and responses. Those are his words. I guess this will all remain hypothetical until he actually engages the budo community on its own terms of attack and defense and we find out where his unique theories function within the norms of budo.
One thing is for sure. A suprise will be in store for either party because the methods are dramatically different.
Dan

Not my words.

DH

02-07-2012, 12:39 PM

No they are mine.
Your words are that your methods are Ueshiba's, and that they are effective, and that you can defeat an attacker with love.
Neither of which have you shown, and in this thread and many others, you state we don't understand your method. Fair enough. We ask, ...you explain nothing.
I agree with Philip
If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?
This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact
I posted a public video link of you.
Where is there an attack with a sword?
Where is there a defense if there is no attack?
Where does love come into anything to attack better?
Where does love come into anything to defend better?
How does your attack/defense movement relate to a budo?
If it doesn't, why do you wear budo clothes and use weapons?
If it does, why doesn't it function like the types of budo we all seem to know and disagree with you about?
All we are looking for is explanations to your continued threads about your theories.
Use your words______________________.

Dan

Demetrio Cereijo

02-07-2012, 01:03 PM

don't go there! don't make me bring out Wham! (hmm... the sound of an attack) you need to transcend the 70s and 80s. :D
I see your Wham! and raise a Soft Cell :P

chillzATL

02-07-2012, 01:04 PM

I see your Wham! and raise a Soft Cell :P

I'm not sure if you guys are trying to make a case against the 80s, but it's not working.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-07-2012, 01:20 PM

I'm not sure if you guys are trying to make a case against the 80s, but it's not working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7NyE8o5fxk

Better now?

graham christian

02-07-2012, 02:17 PM

No they are mine.
Your words are that your methods are Ueshiba's, and that they are effective, and that you can defeat an attacker with love.
Neither of which have you shown, and in this thread and many others, you state we don't understand your method. Fair enough. We ask, ...you explain nothing.
I agree with Philip

I posted a public video link of you. Where is there an attack with a sword? Where is there a defense if there is no attack? Where does love come into anything you are doing?
Use your words______________________.

Dan

My words regarding Ueshiba are to do with understanding a lot of what he says. My methods are mine, based on principles he talked about and showed . Not quite how you choose to say it.

They are effective? Yes.

They can defeat an attacker? Yes. Nothing extraordinary there.

The use of love in so doing? Yes. That's new or not to others depending on them. It wasn't to Ueshiba.

I think it's more how you or others state they don't understand rather than me. The response tells me and anyone else whether they understand my communication. It's not rocket science to see if someone understands or not. That may be down to the communicator or the receiver but nonetheless true.

How can you understand my methods, you don't use them. You say you have never experienced them so it's self evident that you wouldn't isn't it? Nothing wrong with that. Must be many methods I haven't experienced, many I wouldn't want to either. No problem.

I explain much. So who knows what you mean there, not me.

Public video link, ooh, like the word public like it means other than it does. It's a youtube video. It was assumed by me that some might know what's going on in it. The clue may be in the title? There again it may be misleading. Isn't zen fun.

It's also fun how you presume to tell me all about it as if it is you in it. You even tell the world about it , as if you know what what being drilled, shown, practiced, demonstrated. It shows me how close or far from that days reality you are.

Where is there an attack with a sword? Well, theres no sword there however there is a bokken. One of those things you learn to cut with. To move and cut through. Oh, and by the way, don't stop moving at the point of cutting.

Method number one; Just learn to cut through even if you feel the person won't get out of the way. Forget all how a 'proper' cut should be according to anything you have learned or read or seen in the movies, just cut through and don't stop your forward motion. A hard lesson for many yet a first one.

If you feel you can follow the person and cut then do so. Straight down cut, shomen.

Point? a)Get person through a barrier to do with 'possible harm' as the responsibility in this exercise lies with the 'nage' to move in such a way he doesn't get hit.
b) Aikido deals with motion. That sword cut for this exercise represents any physical weapon be it a sword, metal bar, wooden plank, heavy hammer fist or whatever travelling from up to down coming at and through you. Once again the solution is harmony, motion.

He who sees only master swordsmen fighting in comparison is missing the 'finger pointing to the moon'

Where is there a defence where there is no attack? Quite a weird question as there is one.

The defence is another matter. Many things shown, all different, all different principles, all for different reasons. Let's see now......

There is a) sen no sen etc. (something I usually call all one thing and use the phrase shin shin toitsu)
b) Motion along the 'irimi' line, (off line)

c) reaching center line before the cut can even complete.

d) the 'complete' irimi line as I call it which actuakly is a zig zag.

e) cutting through the sword with weight underside.

f) cutting through the sword with weight underside and thrusting to the throat as one motion
g) spiritual connection.

h) love

i) relationship of center line to facing sword.

j) spiritually walking into the sword while the body moves off line.

k) Being with, as usual.

and more.

Where does love come into what you are doing? Firstly via a discipline, a major principle extant in my Aikido. A principle that shows there is no 'against' of any kind in Aikido. Therefor there cannot be competition or fight. This simple principle is spiritual, a spiritual principle. The principle is Be with. Not be with in order to or close distance or work anything out, no, spiritually be with. An act of love.

Love is also related to space. Thus awareness of circular space and indeed spherical, filled with love.
A discipline. Airy fairy feeling is not love.

Only lesson number one. Shows there is much to learn before you think about any ideas of being some kind of master swordsman.

A lesson given after watching him 'think' he was teaching that other guy anything about the sword.

Principles once again, my way. I do not teach how to use a sword, I teach principles where the sword is used to show certain ones. My view is no different from the zen story of the student told to sweep up every day.

One fine day I might say to someone, 'here's a competent kendo man or some such and say pick up the bokken and see how you get on'

One student has done so and he's no swordsman. None of them are. Funny how he was very effective though.

Regards.G.

DH

02-07-2012, 03:08 PM

Thank you. I appreciate the effort, though nothing is stated about how your theories work.
Considering that everything you just outlined is pretty much a violation of competent swordwork done by those in Budo, it stands to reason that the hundred or so koryu people I know who read these pages would never consider anything you do to be related to an attack with a sword. That was why I stated that there really was no defense- as I couldn't see any attack. No one who has trained weapons will move that way as it is suicide on both sides of the equation. Period. No opinion asked or required.

As you yourself just stated there are other methods you are unfamiliar with. I suggest to you (for the third time) that you open yourself up to exploring them. Among those other methods you don't know...are ways to actually use a weapon.
You would do far better in your apparent interest in talking to us here, to consider that there are men here would literally take you apart in a few seconds with a bokken. This is the chief reason so many of us-who have faced some seriously competent weapons people- and also some of us who are those people, were offering you the advice that these are not attacks nor are they defenses we are familiar with in good Aikido or Budo in general.

Until you have tried these theories out on seriously competent people, you are only speculating and have no credible reason to state otherwise. Go right ahead if you want to, but you are going to continue to get these almost 100% negative responses.

If you want to just assert and speculate and throw it out there that it works in your dojo... fine. God Bless. But, as others are telling you, that model worked fine in closed dojos in the 70's. Today if you are not willing or will not allow testing from outside, you're pretty much going to be dismissed out of hand. It is obvious that you are interesting in talking to and connecting with a community so you are going to discover in the process the standards in a given community.

If you feel you have something to offer then the only way that is going to happen in 2012 is to open the doors and you should seriously consider that there are things you need to learn as well. This is good advice Graham, offered by people trying to help you. Mostly because you seem a friendly fellow and people are trying to help you grow. Find some recognized competent people in the community and go for it.

Dan

graham christian

02-07-2012, 05:34 PM

Dan.
I appreciate good intention. However, assumptions not so.

If I ask for help with something I am sure there would be many only too pleased on this forum to oblige.

If I want to learn a different method or even explore one then I am sure the same applies.

If I need to do or learn or improve any aspect then it will be and always has been a matter of if and when. Not subject to anyone elses opinion unless I have expressed a desire to so do.

Results only tell me when need is applicable, they are my expert who I listen to.

My ability is not much I talk about, especially in life, as it is not my main purpose. My purpose is teaching thus I can say with total confidence that most of any grade of martial artist can learn something from me and go away happy, be they ten times better than me at some things or not.

I learn every day and when I get stuck I find the area, seek out someone in that area, and learn.

As far as weapons go then there are some I may not know much about and some I may, to what level is not a question I even give myself. I don't think that way. My level is where it is and if I find I need to improve it I do if possible.

Now, the sword. Once again I have never talked about my personal competency with one, never shown it, probably never will for as I said I do not train people to be swordsmen as a specific purpose.
If a trained swordsman came to me and said they have a particular aspect of they wanted to improve then I would say show me. I would 'play' the part of the opponent only to discover if I could see some way, some principle that would help them in their quest. I would not do anything else.

I reckon I have practiced with and witnessed one of the best swordsmen around. My opinion. So while you pick your jaw back up off of the floor it merely shows I have some idea of the ways and rituals of the sword by virtue of witness first hand if not by levels of skill.

Once again this person is not some world famous name and doesn't want to be either, never did.

Skills of the sword in action, a real Katana not a bokken, up close and personal. So no need to tell me about 'taking apart in two seconds' or any such statements.

Skills in action. versus who knows, for at the times I witnessed they were different visitors from who knows where that he had agreed to show something.

Other skills in action personally witnessed regarding such sword work you probably wouldn't believe for they were hard enough to believe by the few of us there.

Personal choices. We each choose our way. How much getting out there is getting out there? Been through a cycle of that until I came to a realization there and thus chose that was enough for now, time to focus on my way.

Stepping up to a plate and challenges? Been through a cycle of that too and it took me to all manner of places and situations for real which at the time I considered 'budo' Once again, achieved my goal at the time and brought me to my next realization and thus choice.

Thus I have now my own step up to the plate for anyone and have had it for the last ten years. If you want to learn the spiritual side, the compassionate side, the underlying principles, then step up to the plate with an empty cup. I teach one way, my way. How can a man teach anyone elses way?

In my way there is no superior, there is no belt that equals better than, their is no significance on labels. Their is only ability to help another and each other improve.

There are many ways of keeping in touch with other ways of Aikido other than those you prescribe.

I always bump into someone eventually from another style and thus find out first hand about them. No teacher couldn't I would say. I always perk up and listen to students who bump into similar and and the results of their encounters. I have people known from the past who drop by now and again and similar story. When I want to know then someone invariably turns up.

Only now do I come across an intriguing scene. The world of so called Aikido officialdom appearing to say 'if you communicate with us you must come and show' A new phenomenon. I have met many in life from such and they never said such. It wasn't in my plans. Always openly communicated to any Aikidoka in life and indeed any martial artist and we understood each others ways with no problem.
Always if that other wanted to learn something of mine I gladly showed and vice versa. If wanted. The days of proving long since passed and replaced by respect.

More intriguing for me my own refusal to do so but now I have found what that was all about so that part is solved. Choices my friend. Choices based on purpose, needs and wants.

Those who have a purpose, a need or want to 'get out more' and follow it will learn and find hopefully what they are looking for. Those who don't need to or want to and and are happy with their own purpose extant will likewise learn and find what they are looking for. So simple.

Those who insist on what others should do have a purpose which in my mind befits only control and domination and is misplaced in my opinion.

I'll finish off with an amusing saying I found on facebook but I will change some words for they were a bit rude. This saying fits my view on the matter.

A man has a certain 'appendage' that women don't have,
This apendage is like a religion;
It's something you shouldn't take out and wave around in public,
It's also something you definitely shouldn't shove in peoples faces.

Happy training to you.

Regards.G.

Brian Gillaspie

02-07-2012, 06:46 PM

Having seen all the various reactions on here to 'martial' I don't think that term has any fixed meaning among martial artists by the look of it. So what do I say?

Aikido is a martial art. I think everyone in the world would agree give or take.

I'll agree that 'martial' is a relevant term and people can train however they like but I think there are a lot of 'martial' arts, including some Aikido, that I would say is just a form of art. I am not saying you have to walk off the mat every night with blood on your gi to be considered martial but there are many things I see that I can not even begin to understand how they would be considered as 'martial' ...but maybe I am just stupid to understand what I am seeing :D

graham christian

02-08-2012, 05:16 AM

I'll agree that 'martial' is a relevant term and people can train however they like but I think there are a lot of 'martial' arts, including some Aikido, that I would say is just a form of art. I am not saying you have to walk off the mat every night with blood on your gi to be considered martial but there are many things I see that I can not even begin to understand how they would be considered as 'martial' ...but maybe I am just stupid to understand what I am seeing :D

Deceived by your eyes maybe? How can you tell? In truth you can't. You can only assume.

Most people say that 'when the time comes in real life' is the only true test.

Some people say that it's bigger than that, it's how you handle situations in life, including the one above.

Some people refer to 'war' and thus the test would be in battle only.

So what do you see? You don't see these real situations. You merely see a form of practice.

The bruised and bloodied or nth dan practitioner may meet a situation in life and all discipline flies out of the window, all calmness gone, get's a pasting.

Meanwhile the one you couldn't quite understand, in the same situation, no problem.

Do our eyes deceive? Mostly.

Regards.G.

Marc Abrams

02-08-2012, 08:15 AM

Graham:

People have been remarkably patient with you. You come on to this forum presenting yourself as somebody with knowledge and ability. People with demonstrable knowledge and ability have both questioned your claims and outright dismissed your claims. People have asked that you provide some demonstrable examples ( your videos are woefully lacking in this area if you have not already figured that out yet), such as holding an open seminar so that people can assess for themselves what you have to offer. Let's review some of the areas of concerns:

1) You say that you have understand a lot of what O'Sensei said: Fact 1- You do not speak or read Japanese. Fact 2- Much of the translated works of O'Sensei have not been accurately translated.
Fact 3- Much of what O'Sensei use to talk about was so heavily embedded in his deep religious beliefs, that without a deep understanding of the culture and beliefs, many of his own direct students had trouble figuring out exactly what he was trying to say.

Taking those three facts into account, it is highly improbable that you in fact understand a lot of what O'Sensei said. At best, some aspects of the translated works resonate with YOUR belief systems. To most people on this forum, who do have a much deeper understanding of what O'Sensei said (for example Chris Li) they simply point out the error of your ways, to which you seek to wiggle your way out of by claiming that your idiosyncratic understanding is somehow accurate.

2) You claim that what you do is "effective" and based on O'Sensei's principles:
To highly skilled and experienced Aikido teachers, your videos are uniformly dismissed as not representing O'Sensei's principles and displaying no signs of being any where near effective in any manner, shape of form. You talk mysteriously about having spent 10 years testing yourself. You talk mysteriously about some unspoken weapons skills. You talk your way out of having to demonstrate this to any open audience. The burden of proof is simply on you. You can allow Dan Harden to attend one of your classes, since you say that you are open to such encounters. This forum, for the most part, will respect the feedback that Dan provides us with. Better yet, hold an open seminar. Allow some of the senior Aikidoka from Britain to attend, besides other people, and allow your skills to be observed and felt by a larger audience. To Mark Tennenhouse's credit, at least he had integrity to put his money where his mouth was. You have yet to display any kind of budo integrity in terms of allowing what you say to be felt and observed.

You spend so much of your time discounting the feedback from other people. You spend so much of your time telling people that they simply do not understand the depth of your understanding and depth of abilities. You spend no time verifying a single thing. You complain about the keyboard warrior, yet you seem to be the worst offender of all. You come on this forum and put forth words and then hide behind them, saying that you are beyond the need for verification.

People have asked the legitimate question of why do you post on this forum. It seems to me that you should simply stick to a personal blog. If you put forth ideas and beliefs on this forum, it seems to most sane, rational and reasonable people that you should be able to amply demonstrate what you say to an open audience IN PERSON, as opposed to your words.

Many people are conflicted about you on this forum for a number of reasons. One, is that you appear to be a sincere, nice person, BUT you do come across as either overly sanctimonious and/or deluded in your beliefs and abilities. Another reason, is that there are a number of responsible people who view your ideas as being irresponsible (in terms of saying that what you do is martial and effective, while demonstrating nothing of the kind), misrepresenting Aikido in both is philosophy, practice and application. They post, not to enter into some kind of genuine discussion or face-to-face meeting to flesh these things out (you studiously avoid both of these situations), but to try and provide people with what most consider more accurate information. Another reason, is that people have heard what you say before (70's- & 80's) and have watched the responsible martial artists, with genuine integrity, discover that their previously held notions were simply a stage in their training that they moved beyond.

You have already worn out your welcome with some of the most respected martial artists on this forum. Their attempts to guide you were met with an attitude and response that placed you on the ignore list. Dan Harden's latest attempts to assist you in your understanding of things was very kind and very well attended. Your response to him was typical of how your respond to anybody who does not agree with your view of things. You avoid any real tests, while discounting any real need to do so, while trying to pass off your ideas as somehow valid and reasonable within the world of Aikido and larger world of budo.

Frankly speaking, in absence of you demonstrating in an open manner (lets say holding an open seminar), I can only hope that people simply stop responding to you. It seems to spur you on to writing more and demonstrating nothing. People's response should uniformly be "put up or stop typing." At the end of the day, martial arts is about what you CAN do, as opposed to what you CLAIM that you can do.

Marc Abrams

chillzATL

02-08-2012, 08:37 AM

Deceived by your eyes maybe? How can you tell? In truth you can't. You can only assume.

Most people say that 'when the time comes in real life' is the only true test.

Some people say that it's bigger than that, it's how you handle situations in life, including the one above.

Some people refer to 'war' and thus the test would be in battle only.

So what do you see? You don't see these real situations. You merely see a form of practice.

The bruised and bloodied or nth dan practitioner may meet a situation in life and all discipline flies out of the window, all calmness gone, get's a pasting.

Meanwhile the one you couldn't quite understand, in the same situation, no problem.

Do our eyes deceive? Mostly.

Regards.G.

More wisdom from the mountain top. What you're suggesting is nothing more than blind faith. Anyone, regardless of training or skill can find themselves in a situation where they lose their focus and get in trouble. It's complete foolishness to suggest that a type of practice where the only real consequences are that someones hand might get caught in your gi as they run through you to the wall has equal chances of success as someone who has faced some level of real pressure and knows what it's like to be able to focus through that and get something done. One is blind faith and the other is actual preparation.

Aikido can be a lot of things, movement practice, fighting practice (kind of) or spiritual practice. There's nothing wrong with it being any of those things, but don't suggest that it's all or some of those things when it clearly is not. It's at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-08-2012, 08:53 AM

Well, Graham has his fans who consider him wise and enlightened, His approach has a market, so be it.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 09:29 AM

More wisdom from the mountain top. What you're suggesting is nothing more than blind faith. Anyone, regardless of training or skill can find themselves in a situation where they lose their focus and get in trouble. It's complete foolishness to suggest that a type of practice where the only real consequences are that someones hand might get caught in your gi as they run through you to the wall has equal chances of success as someone who has faced some level of real pressure and knows what it's like to be able to focus through that and get something done. One is blind faith and the other is actual preparation.

Aikido can be a lot of things, movement practice, fighting practice (kind of) or spiritual practice. There's nothing wrong with it being any of those things, but don't suggest that it's all or some of those things when it clearly is not. It's at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest.

It can be all or some of those things.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 09:31 AM

Well, Graham has his fans who consider him wise and enlightened, His approach has a market, so be it.

Aha! Must be time for a seminar.....

G.

chillzATL

02-08-2012, 09:35 AM

It can be all or some of those things.

Regards.G.

But when it's not, it's ok to pretend it is?

Gary David

02-08-2012, 09:47 AM

Aha! Must be time for a seminar.....

G.

Graham
A a possible solution to all the misunderstanding of your approach and it's effectiveness. I am sure that if you hosted a seminar with you as the featured instructor folks would be beating down the doors to get on the mat with you. I think you should find a reasonably large space to accommodate everyone who would want to be involved....

just go straight

Gary

David Orange

02-08-2012, 09:50 AM

The bruised and bloodied or nth dan practitioner may meet a situation in life and all discipline flies out of the window, all calmness gone, get's a pasting.

Meanwhile the one you couldn't quite understand, in the same situation, no problem.

Hey...nice self-crediting for an imaginary situation; nice self-promotion as being greater thant the bruised and bloodied or "nth dan practitioner."

Too bad it's purely imaginary.

Do our eyes deceive? Mostly.

Myself, I think it's words that deceive--and mostly those words we tell ourselves to justify some strange thing we're doing. That's why serious martial artists go into the community and measure themselves against established people whose place in the world of martial arts is well known. Others just give themselves credit for being wiser than the established people...and thus having nothing to prove.

But if there's nothing to prove....why keep coming back?

So sad, really. So sad.

David

graham christian

02-08-2012, 09:54 AM

But when it's not, it's ok to pretend it is?

Aikido always is. So is any martial art. Your point?

G.

DH

02-08-2012, 09:54 AM

More wisdom from the mountain top. What you're suggesting is nothing more than blind faith. Anyone, regardless of training or skill can find themselves in a situation where they lose their focus and get in trouble. It's complete foolishness to suggest that a type of practice where the only real consequences are that someones hand might get caught in your gi as they run through you to the wall has equal chances of success as someone who has faced some level of real pressure and knows what it's like to be able to focus through that and get something done. One is blind faith and the other is actual preparation.

Aikido can be a lot of things, movement practice, fighting practice (kind of) or spiritual practice. There's nothing wrong with it being any of those things, but don't suggest that it's all or some of those things when it clearly is not. It's at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest.
That really cuts to the heart of the matter.
I don't think anyone has trouble with the gentle people who practice their spiritual aikido. Trouble only arises when....they...and it is always...them... who want to claim that which was unearned. Martial veracity.
And here is the rub
When they are challenged on that score
It is ...they..and it is always....them....who run away and hide.
Why?
Inside, they know you can't have something for free. There are no fighting skills that are unearned. The practice of the gentle people is fine and everyone has fun. Who has a beef with that? It is only when that practice is claimed...as a budo that trouble arises both from within the art, and from those outside watching. Most reasonable people know it is hollow and meaningless in any martial sense and I suspect those doing it know it too. From there you have to discern their motives in communicating their ideas to the martial community.

Well, Graham has his fans who consider him wise and enlightened, His approach has a market, so be it.
I disagree. To me this really isn't about Graham. It is about those practicing a so called spiritual aikido and stealing your arts hard earned reputation and work as a form of Budo.
Yup.
Stealing it, and then eventually destroying your arts reputation.
How's that?
When the gentle folk invaded aikido-- the numbers went up and the death of aikido began.
Now that the MMA craze hit and more and more people interested in Budo joined Koryu; the reality and demands of real budo sunk in to a broader range of aikido-ka due to the increased exposure. So now the numbers and that type of practice actually hurt Aikido. And when everyone complains about the numbers drastically falling off in dojos worldwide...one need only look right at those gentle folk out there staring at a smarter audience and trying to convince them (and themselves) that what they are doing actually works!

Of those who remain practicing the ultracooperative and spiritual side-watch carefully and you will see an underlying pretense in a host of these gentle folk.
1. If they are practicing a spiritual path, why are they dressed in budo clothing and brandishing weapons?
2. To what purpose?
3. Because they want to believe and want others to believe, they are a part of budo.

Yup, beyond all protestations and argument, that is all it really is. And they are borrowing someone else's good name and hard work to substantiate their own skills.
Don't believe me? Hang out with them. wait and see how long it takes before they talk about practical fighting and applications and...and...the feats of a "spiritual" Ueshiba to defeat all those bully boys. Now you just have to see who has the guts to step up and actually take part in that same practice with their budo attire and weapons..with people who actually suffered and trained hard to gain real skills.
What happens?
In person-they run away.
On the internet? Reams and reams of typing and fashioning excuses to explain away one simple fact.... why they ran away.

Movement aikido, and Spiritual Aikido are not and will never be Budo. The community needs to call people on it and let them know the reality of just what their practice really is. Otherwise you are staring into a further decline of your own making. Exposure and education is the only way for the art to move forward.
Dan

graham christian

02-08-2012, 09:56 AM

Hey...nice self-crediting for an imaginary situation; nice self-promotion as being greater thant the bruised and bloodied or "nth dan practitioner."

Too bad it's purely imaginary.

Myself, I think it's words that deceive--and mostly those words we tell ourselves to justify some strange thing we're doing. That's why serious martial artists go into the community and measure themselves against established people whose place in the world of martial arts is well known. Others just give themselves credit for being wiser than the established people...and thus having nothing to prove.

But if there's nothing to prove....why keep coming back?

So sad, really. So sad.

David

Your words.

G.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-08-2012, 10:02 AM

Aha! Must be time for a seminar.....

G.

I suggest to invite someone who has not been involved in aikiweb discussions about you (or aiki or ki), to provide a neutral unbiased opinion.

I'm thinking in someone skilled in aikido and with a good sense of humor, for instance Mr. Dacosta (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbD_MzkaH-Y). I believe everybody around here would accept his opinion about your aikido skills.

Just an idea to consider.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 10:13 AM

Graham
A a possible solution to all the misunderstanding of your approach and it's effectiveness. I am sure that if you hosted a seminar with you as the featured instructor folks would be beating down the doors to get on the mat with you. I think you should find a reasonably large space to accommodate everyone who would want to be involved....

just go straight

Gary

A seminar. You mean one of those things hosted by Shihan with large followings. You mean one of those things where people who respect that teacher attend and feel honoured to do so. I see.

Don't seem to fit me somehow.

G.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 10:21 AM

I suggest to invite someone who has not been involved in aikiweb discussions about you (or aiki or ki), to provide a neutral unbiased opinion.

I'm thinking in someone skilled in aikido and with a good sense of humor, for instance Mr. Dacosta (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbD_MzkaH-Y). I believe everybody around here would accept his opinion about your aikido skills.

Just an idea to consider.

Ah, one of my old students. Well found.

G.

Marc Abrams

02-08-2012, 10:25 AM

A seminar. You mean one of those things hosted by Shihan with large followings. You mean one of those things where people who respect that teacher attend and feel honoured to do so. I see.

Don't seem to fit me somehow.

G.

Let's go to the dictionary:

sem·i·nar (sm-när)
n.
1.
a. A small group of advanced students in a college or graduate school engaged in original research or intensive study under the guidance of a professor who meets regularly with them to discuss their reports and findings.
b. A course of study so pursued.
c. A scheduled meeting of such a group.
2. A meeting for an exchange of ideas; a conference.

A seminar from you would fit the second definition. Many people who are not Shihan's and do not have large followings, hold seminars.

would you care to put out another reason as to why a seminar would not be appropriate?

Marc Abrams

Mary Eastland

02-08-2012, 10:32 AM

This could be quite impossible because of us really believe in no competition.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-08-2012, 10:36 AM

Competition? Who is talking about competition?

We are talking about competence. A different word with a different meaning.

DH

02-08-2012, 10:39 AM

Graham
I want to come and train with you when I am in England and buy you dinner after.
How do we arrange that?
What is your location
What are your hours?
Dan

graham christian

02-08-2012, 10:49 AM

Let's go to the dictionary:

sem·i·nar (sm-när)
n.
1.
a. A small group of advanced students in a college or graduate school engaged in original research or intensive study under the guidance of a professor who meets regularly with them to discuss their reports and findings.
b. A course of study so pursued.
c. A scheduled meeting of such a group.
2. A meeting for an exchange of ideas; a conference.

A seminar from you would fit the second definition. Many people who are not Shihan's and do not have large followings, hold seminars.

would you care to put out another reason as to why a seminar would not be appropriate?

Marc Abrams

Would you like to give me an example of one.

G.

David Orange

02-08-2012, 11:08 AM

Your words.

I know.

But now that I've seen Master DaCosta, a red-and-white belt....I can see that, indeed, the masters do come and bow before you.

Incredible.

David

Demetrio Cereijo

02-08-2012, 11:11 AM

Ah, one of my old students. Well found.

G.

Could someone be so kind to contact Mr Da Costa on my behalf (my english is not good enough to adress a british judo legend and aikido high rank), and ask him about the veracity of this statement.

Mr. Da Costa website: http://www.shinjido.com/

Thanks in advance.

David Orange

02-08-2012, 11:12 AM

Ah, one of my old students. Well found.

It's a treasure.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 11:15 AM

Graham
I want to come and train with you when I am in England and buy you dinner after.
How do we arrange that?
What is your location
What are your hours?
Dan

You want to? Why should I ''want to?'

G.

Demetrio Cereijo

02-08-2012, 11:17 AM

You want to? Why should I ''want to?'

G.

He buys dinner. In today's times that's a very good offer.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 11:32 AM

He buys dinner. In today's times that's a very good offer.

But I eat one grain of rice, brown, chewed 36 times and followed by a nice cup of Ki. Mmmmm, lovely.

Now if someone wants to buy me a house we could be in business.

G.

chillzATL

02-08-2012, 12:15 PM

Aikido always is. So is any martial art. Your point?

G.

My point is that it takes more than just saying that what you do is all those things to make it so. The practice has to change accordingly and the ways that it changes are things that you have clearly said aren't a part of your practice.

mathewjgano

02-08-2012, 12:37 PM

You want to? Why should I ''want to?'

G.

I'm guessing because he wants to learn first-hand what you're talking about and you like to teach. You both want to teach what you know; maybe a better question is why "wouldn't" you want to get together and compare notes?
In the spirit of "togetherness" (:ai:) I would love to see you two get together, if for no other reason than to show how two apparently different ends of the spectrum (per the written medium, at least) can find commonality in training. I'd like to know your take on his way of moving as well as his on yours.
To be clear, I'm not interested in right or wrong here. I'm of the school of thought that all opinions hold validity, so even if you two came away with different opinions on the nature of "aiki," it would be valuable to the many many comments you've both had on the various topics related to aiki.
You both strike me as magnanimous people. Put that to the task and let aikiweb reap the rewards. You can always still agree to disagree.
Sincerely,
Matt

David Orange

02-08-2012, 12:40 PM

You want to? Why should I ''want to?'

I can see many reasons why you wouldn't want to. Not that Dan would hurt you. You'd just see that your "stuff" would have no effect on him and his "stuff" would move you easily and at will.

If I were seriously deluded about my abilities, I wouldn't want to meet Dan, either.

Sadly.

David

graham christian

02-08-2012, 12:50 PM

My point is that it takes more than just saying that what you do is all those things to make it so. The practice has to change accordingly and the ways that it changes are things that you have clearly said aren't a part of your practice.

Have I? Enlighten me if you would.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-08-2012, 12:56 PM

I'm guessing because he wants to learn first-hand what you're talking about and you like to teach. You both want to teach what you know; maybe a better question is why "wouldn't" you want to get together and compare notes?
In the spirit of "togetherness" (:ai:) I would love to see you two get together, if for no other reason than to show how two apparently different ends of the spectrum (per the written medium, at least) can find commonality in training. I'd like to know your take on his way of moving as well as his on yours.
To be clear, I'm not interested in right or wrong here. I'm of the school of thought that all opinions hold validity, so even if you two came away with different opinions on the nature of "aiki," it would be valuable to the many many comments you've both had on the various topics related to aiki.
You both strike me as magnanimous people. Put that to the task and let aikiweb reap the rewards. You can always still agree to disagree.
Sincerely,
Matt

Ahh, music. A post I can understand and relate to. Thank you Matthew. I have to go training now but this is worthy of considered response.

I will so do.

Regards.G.

chillzATL

02-08-2012, 01:05 PM

Have I? Enlighten me if you would.

Regards.G.

No, I'm not going to let you waste my time any more than you have already. You've been clear in what your practice is and is not many times before. In regards to what I was referencing, you said it in this very thread. If you don't remember what you've said or you don't care to be honest enough to own up to it, I'm certainly not going to waste my time hunting it down for you.

For someone who portrays himself as a non-aggressive, peace loving, spiritual guy, you are one of the most passive-aggressive personalities that I've encountered.

chillzATL

02-08-2012, 03:26 PM

Ah, one of my old students. Well found.

G.

This Danny Dacosta was a student of yours?

http://www.shinjido.com/bio.html

Janet Rosen

02-08-2012, 04:00 PM

This Danny Dacosta was a student of yours?

http://www.shinjido.com/bio.html

"My Aikido journey would have finished after 4 years training with a local group in Torbay. Thinking back it is surprising that I stayed with them so long. I knew that none of the instructors could impose their will on me unless I went along with them."

Gerardo Torres

02-08-2012, 04:02 PM

No, I'm not going to let you waste my time any more than you have already. You've been clear in what your practice is and is not many times before. In regards to what I was referencing, you said it in this very thread. If you don't remember what you've said or you don't care to be honest enough to own up to it, I'm certainly not going to waste my time hunting it down for you.

For someone who portrays himself as a non-aggressive, peace loving, spiritual guy, you are one of the most passive-aggressive personalities that I've encountered.
Hey, welcome to Humpty Dumpty's Playground errr I mean Aikiweb! ;)

sakumeikan

02-09-2012, 05:31 AM

You want to? Why should I ''want to?'

G.

Hi Graham,
Without getting into any debate about whether you /Dan or anyone is a good Ip/Aikidoka, here is my take on this. Dan has offered meet you, take you out for a meal .He ,I assume. has no hidden agenda. I do not believe he is out to prove anything. It seems to me Dan is being sociable.Whats the problem?Maybe both of you would gain from the encounter?If nothing else Dans visit to you would not cost you anything in monetary terms.Cheers,Joe.

Walter Martindale

02-09-2012, 12:08 PM

Hi Graham,
Without getting into any debate about whether you /Dan or anyone is a good Ip/Aikidoka, here is my take on this. Dan has offered meet you, take you out for a meal .He ,I assume. has no hidden agenda. I do not believe he is out to prove anything. It seems to me Dan is being sociable.Whats the problem?Maybe both of you would gain from the encounter?If nothing else Dans visit to you would not cost you anything in monetary terms.Cheers,Joe.

I know it's not really my business, but...

Whatever Graham or Dan do - why not provide Dan your practice location and times if he wants to pay a visit if he's up Newcastle way?
If I had a dojo and he was passing through my community I'd happily welcome a visit (no matter how rusty I am)...
Purpose - gnaw on some raw fish and rice, exchange ideas about training... not necessarily in that order.
Britain's only a small country - you can get pretty much anywere in a few hours on a train. Going from Toronto to Vancouver (say) is four hours or so at 36,000 feet, or 3 days on the train.

Cheers,
W

Michael Douglas

02-09-2012, 12:38 PM

London to Newcastle, hardly a stroll up the lane, and doubly horrible with our public transport system.
Just saying, not something I'd want to do on a whim.
Of course, let me know when Dan's visiting Newcastle, and don't get off anywhere near Manchester.

Walter Martindale

02-09-2012, 01:41 PM

London to Newcastle, hardly a stroll up the lane, and doubly horrible with our public transport system.
Just saying, not something I'd want to do on a whim.
Of course, let me know when Dan's visiting Newcastle, and don't get off anywhere near Manchester.

Ok, this is OT...
Maybe.. But.. when my dad turned up his toes in Edinburgh, the rellys shipped his belongings back to Toronto - after all, it didn't look that far on the globe (from Winnipeg). They said "you can drive there on a Sunday and pick it up".. Yeah, right - 1,500 MILES...each way..

Nothing's far away in the UK. According to Google Earth Directions it's only about 5 hours drive from London to Jordieville :)
It might take some doing to get from A to B, but it's not far away. (I'll be driving from Calgary to just outside of Cambridge ON next month - If I get good road conditions and no storms, it should only take 3 or 4 DAYS...)

Cheers,
W

hughrbeyer

02-09-2012, 08:53 PM

London to Newcastle, hardly a stroll up the lane, and doubly horrible with our public transport system.

You Brits are so cute, complaining about your horrible public transportation system. :mad:

Stephen Nichol

02-09-2012, 09:43 PM

I have been curious to learn what Dan has to show and offer for awhile now. To see how much of it I already understand even though I may not be able to produce tangible results myself while training (yet) and if possible get some direction as to how to achieve those results.

I am going to go out on a limb here and figure that #1. Enticing Dan to come all the way down to Australia to pay our little dojo a visit to watch, listen and learn by actually getting to 'feel' it is not going to happen any time soon. :(

#2. Seeing as how he is almost going out of his way to offer Graham a visit and to even buy dinner afterwards I am honestly shocked at Graham not taking him up on this offer. :confused:

So now my plan is change my 'way' and try to write posts more along the lines of Graham, study his 'path' and see if maybe that will bring Dan my way... just maybe. :p

Ok, most likely I will have to buy dinner but thats cool too. :cool:

Gerardo Torres

02-09-2012, 11:14 PM

You Brits are so cute, complaining about your horrible public transportation system. :mad:
Heh, no kidding. The public transportation where I live can be useful... as long as you have no concern for time whatsoever. Couple that with some of the worst traffic in the US. Oh well, at least we have our weather. :)

My aikido class is 1 hour by car. My weekly weapons training is 2 hours by car. For seminars I often drive 7 hours to Southern California (or 8 hours North to Oregon). I struggle to understand why would any alleged Budo follower avoid a well-regarded Budo teacher who wants to come to their area to train with them and buy them dinner! :confused:

gates

02-09-2012, 11:43 PM

I have been curious to learn what Dan has to show and offer for awhile now. To see how much of it I already understand even though I may not be able to produce tangible results myself while training (yet) and if possible get some direction as to how to achieve those results.

I am going to go out on a limb here and figure that #1. Enticing Dan to come all the way down to Australia to pay our little dojo a visit to watch, listen and learn by actually getting to 'feel' it is not going to happen any time soon. :(

#2. Seeing as how he is almost going out of his way to offer Graham a visit and to even buy dinner afterwards I am honestly shocked at Graham not taking him up on this offer. :confused:

So now my plan is change my 'way' and try to write posts more along the lines of Graham, study his 'path' and see if maybe that will bring Dan my way... just maybe. :p

Ok, most likely I will have to buy dinner but thats cool too. :cool:

+1

sakumeikan

02-10-2012, 03:21 AM

I know it's not really my business, but...

Whatever Graham or Dan do - why not provide Dan your practice location and times if he wants to pay a visit if he's up Newcastle way?
If I had a dojo and he was passing through my community I'd happily welcome a visit (no matter how rusty I am)...
Purpose - gnaw on some raw fish and rice, exchange ideas about training... not necessarily in that order.
Britain's only a small country - you can get pretty much anywere in a few hours on a train. Going from Toronto to Vancouver (say) is four hours or so at 36,000 feet, or 3 days on the train.

Cheers,
W

Dear Walter,
You must be a good tennis player,You have quietly bounced the ball/shifted the emphasis away from Graham /Dan and hit the ball into my court.Nice one. i have no problem meeting Dan or anyone else for that matter.
Incidentally I do not hide behind philosophical /political barriers. I have never avoided anybody in my martial arts quest.Just in case you think I am Superman, I have been turned over many times.So if Dan happened to show up in Newcastle upon Tyne I would buy him a beer, have a meal and I am sure we would have a good time.Same applies to you if your in my neighborhood you call me.If I land in your backyard I will look you up.Maybe we would end up duelling with feather dusters at fifty paces?
Have a nice day, Joe.

Mark Freeman

02-10-2012, 05:52 AM

.Maybe we would end up duelling with feather dusters at fifty paces?
Have a nice day, Joe.

Now there's a contest that would need to be up on youtube! :D We could all decide who (if any) has the real cleaning ki ;)

robin_jet_alt

02-10-2012, 06:19 AM

I have been curious to learn what Dan has to show and offer for awhile now. To see how much of it I already understand even though I may not be able to produce tangible results myself while training (yet) and if possible get some direction as to how to achieve those results.

I am going to go out on a limb here and figure that #1. Enticing Dan to come all the way down to Australia to pay our little dojo a visit to watch, listen and learn by actually getting to 'feel' it is not going to happen any time soon. :(

#2. Seeing as how he is almost going out of his way to offer Graham a visit and to even buy dinner afterwards I am honestly shocked at Graham not taking him up on this offer. :confused:

So now my plan is change my 'way' and try to write posts more along the lines of Graham, study his 'path' and see if maybe that will bring Dan my way... just maybe. :p

Ok, most likely I will have to buy dinner but thats cool too. :cool:

That's a really good idea. Maybe if all the Aussies on here really antagonize Dan, he will come and visit us, AND buy us all dinner!

gates

02-10-2012, 07:06 AM

That's a really good idea. Maybe if all the Aussies on here really antagonize Dan, he will come and visit us, AND buy us all dinner!

I doubt Dan would want to come to Aus, it would be too hot. I don't think IP skills work very well in the heat. :D Plus all the fresh fish, pristine beaches, amazing wildlife, great people wouldn't be up his alley.

Walter Martindale

02-10-2012, 07:47 AM

Now there's a contest that would need to be up on youtube! :D We could all decide who (if any) has the real cleaning ki ;)

Ribbons!
Oh wait, that's an Olympic "sport"...

Just watched IP Man for the first time. (yes, I know it's only a movie)

I love going to other dojo to practice - not with any thought toward challenging anyone. The purpose for me (I don't know about others) is to get a workout and learn from others.

I know I'm slow, heavy, and too old and out of shape to present anyone with a "challenge"... If I ever do get to "the old country" as my parents called it, I'll make it to as many aikiweb dojo as I can.

Cheers,
W

Walter Martindale

02-10-2012, 05:27 PM

Dear Walter,
You must be a good tennis player,You have quietly bounced the ball/shifted the emphasis away from Graham /Dan and hit the ball into my court.Nice one. i have no problem meeting Dan or anyone else for that matter.
Incidentally I do not hide behind philosophical /political barriers. I have never avoided anybody in my martial arts quest.Just in case you think I am Superman, I have been turned over many times.So if Dan happened to show up in Newcastle upon Tyne I would buy him a beer, have a meal and I am sure we would have a good time.Same applies to you if your in my neighborhood you call me.If I land in your backyard I will look you up.Maybe we would end up duelling with feather dusters at fifty paces?
Have a nice day, Joe.

Does badminton count? Played that for a few years when I was in high school :) Isn't that deflection/redirecting stuff what aikido folks are s'posta do?
Must find (or found) a dojo - really missing training.
Cheers,
W

SteveTrinkle

02-12-2012, 09:27 AM

I doubt Dan would want to come to Aus, it would be too hot. I don't think IP skills work very well in the heat. :D Plus all the fresh fish, pristine beaches, amazing wildlife, great people wouldn't be up his alley.

I think all the spirals go the other way in Australia.

Janet Rosen

02-12-2012, 11:16 AM

I think all the spirals go the other way in Australia.
:D

Marc Abrams

02-12-2012, 02:12 PM

Ah, one of my old students. Well found.

G.

Graham:

Sensei Danny Da Costa has e-mailed myself and several other people. He has stated that he does not remember ever meeting you and that you were never one of his teachers. Would you be kind enough to explain this apparent discrepancy to us.

Marc Abrams

graham christian

02-12-2012, 02:44 PM

Graham:

Sensei Danny Da Costa has e-mailed myself and several other people. He has stated that he does not remember ever meeting you and that you were never one of his teachers. Would you be kind enough to explain this apparent discrepancy to us.

Marc Abrams

Marc. I think you need to review the video. It's not real.

G.

Marc Abrams

02-12-2012, 02:54 PM

Marc. I think you need to review the video. It's not real.

G.

Graham:

Of course the video was a comedy. What does that have to do you saying that Sensei Da Costa was an old student of yours? Are you trying to say that what you posted was not real or true?

Marc Abrams

graham christian

02-12-2012, 02:58 PM

Graham:

Of course the video was a comedy. What does that have to do you saying that Sensei Da Costa was an old student of yours? Are you trying to say that what you posted was not real or true?

1956 British Schoolboys Senior Boxing Champion every bout won by K.O.
1958 Joined the British Judo Association.
1964 Gained Black 1st Dan beat 8 opponents in succession by full ippon.
1966 Ranked number 1 British Judo Light Weight, commenced a 10 year period as
British International, winning many international matches.
1968 Won my first British Open
1974 Won my last British Open
European Silver Medallist - at the age of 33.
1976 Appointed Western Area Judo Coach, established 4 centres of excellence.
1980 Commenced studies with Geoff Gleason - Britain's first professional National Coach.
1997 Gained Aikido 1st Dan
2002 (April) awarded 6th Dan Judo
2002 World Master's Judo Champion winning every contest by ippon.
2003 Specialist coach for Plymouth Albion Rugby Club
2004 After 15 years of study promoted to 4th Dan Aikido and authorised to develop
newaza (groundwork) for the Shin Gi Tai Aikido Association.
2005 Introduced Shinjido principles for mat competition and developed new techniques.
May 2010 promoted to 5th Dan Aikido

Shinjido is based on sound principles. It was designed for fighting as opposed to sport Judo. It could be readily tailored for MMA use and add another dimension to this growing sport.

I don't know Graham, you tell me if he is a real Sensei. Then again, what does that have to do with you posting information that is not true and you do nothing to indicate that the information is not true. Would you now like to acknowledge that you were not being honest, humor or not?

1956 British Schoolboys Senior Boxing Champion every bout won by K.O.
1958 Joined the British Judo Association.
1964 Gained Black 1st Dan beat 8 opponents in succession by full ippon.
1966 Ranked number 1 British Judo Light Weight, commenced a 10 year period as
British International, winning many international matches.
1968 Won my first British Open
1974 Won my last British Open
European Silver Medallist - at the age of 33.
1976 Appointed Western Area Judo Coach, established 4 centres of excellence.
1980 Commenced studies with Geoff Gleason - Britain's first professional National Coach.
1997 Gained Aikido 1st Dan
2002 (April) awarded 6th Dan Judo
2002 World Master's Judo Champion winning every contest by ippon.
2003 Specialist coach for Plymouth Albion Rugby Club
2004 After 15 years of study promoted to 4th Dan Aikido and authorised to develop
newaza (groundwork) for the Shin Gi Tai Aikido Association.
2005 Introduced Shinjido principles for mat competition and developed new techniques.
May 2010 promoted to 5th Dan Aikido

Shinjido is based on sound principles. It was designed for fighting as opposed to sport Judo. It could be readily tailored for MMA use and add another dimension to this growing sport.

I don't know Graham, you tell me if he is a real Sensei. Then again, what does that have to do with you posting information that is not true and you do nothing to indicate that the information is not true. Would you now like to acknowledge that you were not being honest, humor or not?

Marc Abrams

Well it looked like some kind of monty python sketch to me. I can't believe anyone took it or my reply to it literally. Fascinating.

To think that you not only took it literally but you actually got in touch with the person in the spoof. I find that amazing. So it turns out he is actually a real 'Master'? O.K.

Honest? Is humour anything to do with honesty? There's hardly an honest word in than video, or do you actually believe he is a master of rakey? Or he translated his dads last words the way he said.

I can give you more than what you ask for if you want. In humour I have said many things so none of them would be honest would they? I remember saying on a recent post I only eat one grain of rice a day followed by a nice cup of Ki. Totally dishonest. But you may take it literally if you like.

Regards.G.

Marc Abrams

02-12-2012, 03:53 PM

Well it looked like some kind of monty python sketch to me. I can't believe anyone took it or my reply to it literally. Fascinating.

To think that you not only took it literally but you actually got in touch with the person in the spoof. I find that amazing. So it turns out he is actually a real 'Master'? O.K.

Honest? Is humour anything to do with honesty? There's hardly an honest word in than video, or do you actually believe he is a master of rakey? Or he translated his dads last words the way he said.

I can give you more than what you ask for if you want. In humour I have said many things so none of them would be honest would they? I remember saying on a recent post I only eat one grain of rice a day followed by a nice cup of Ki. Totally dishonest. But you may take it literally if you like.

Regards.G.

Graham:

Why should anybody take something you say seriously is a very good question. Whether it be your claims of martial effectiveness, your claims regarding your teacher training at the Hut Dojo; your claims of humor, rice, etc..... Establishing credibility is quite easy. Answer questions honestly and in a non-evasive manner. Demonstrate your claims to an independent audience. Those are two easy ways to start. If you step back and look at how well-informed people have responded to you, maybe you might see why it is that people bring into question your credibility. Nobody was looking to knock you down by challenging your claims when you first started posting on this forum. You created a dynamic in which many people have openly sought honest answers and sincere, cordial face-to-face meetings to which you studiously avoided. I applaud your effort in meeting with Mark Freeman. I can only hope that you continue on a path of being open and honest about legitimate inquiries into what you say and do.

1956 British Schoolboys Senior Boxing Champion every bout won by K.O.
1958 Joined the British Judo Association.
1964 Gained Black 1st Dan beat 8 opponents in succession by full ippon.
1966 Ranked number 1 British Judo Light Weight, commenced a 10 year period as
British International, winning many international matches.
1968 Won my first British Open
1974 Won my last British Open
European Silver Medallist - at the age of 33.
1976 Appointed Western Area Judo Coach, established 4 centres of excellence.
1980 Commenced studies with Geoff Gleason - Britain's first professional National Coach.
1997 Gained Aikido 1st Dan
2002 (April) awarded 6th Dan Judo
2002 World Master's Judo Champion winning every contest by ippon.
2003 Specialist coach for Plymouth Albion Rugby Club
2004 After 15 years of study promoted to 4th Dan Aikido and authorised to develop
newaza (groundwork) for the Shin Gi Tai Aikido Association.
2005 Introduced Shinjido principles for mat competition and developed new techniques.
May 2010 promoted to 5th Dan Aikido

Shinjido is based on sound principles. It was designed for fighting as opposed to sport Judo. It could be readily tailored for MMA use and add another dimension to this growing sport.

I don't know Graham, you tell me if he is a real Sensei. Then again, what does that have to do with you posting information that is not true and you do nothing to indicate that the information is not true. Would you now like to acknowledge that you were not being honest, humor or not?

Marc Abrams

When I first saw Graham's post about Da Costa it did appear to me he was claiming he taught Da Costa, so I did an internet search to find our more. After I saw the high level of Da Costa's credentials, it became obvious to me that he had no connection to Graham. So it does look like Graham was being cute and humorous again in his own special way :)

Greg

sakumeikan

02-12-2012, 03:57 PM

Well it looked like some kind of monty python sketch to me. I can't believe anyone took it or my reply to it literally. Fascinating.

To think that you not only took it literally but you actually got in touch with the person in the spoof. I find that amazing. So it turns out he is actually a real 'Master'? O.K.

Honest? Is humour anything to do with honesty? There's hardly an honest word in than video, or do you actually believe he is a master of rakey? Or he translated his dads last words the way he said.

I can give you more than what you ask for if you want. In humour I have said many things so none of them would be honest would they? I remember saying on a recent post I only eat one grain of rice a day followed by a nice cup of Ki. Totally dishonest. But you may take it literally if you like.

Regards.G.
Dear Graham,
Mr Da Costa may well be a Master of RAKE/Y.As far as your own diet of one grain of rice a day
and a cup of Ki [with or without milk /sugar ?] as long as you found it nourishing and the enormous amount of calories you consumed did not make you gain weight, keep it up.Let me know if the regimen
helps to 1.Slim you down.2, Increases your understanding of the workings of the Universe and the Oneness of All Things.Cheers, Joe

graham christian

02-12-2012, 04:16 PM

Dear Graham,
Mr Da Costa may well be a Master of RAKE/Y.As far as your own diet of one grain of rice a day
and a cup of Ki [with or without milk /sugar ?] as long as you found it nourishing and the enormous amount of calories you consumed did not make you gain weight, keep it up.Let me know if the regimen
helps to 1.Slim you down.2, Increases your understanding of the workings of the Universe and the Oneness of All Things.Cheers, Joe

Yep. Sounds good to me. As my teacher said to me: 'How serious can you be?...Dead.' I find that quite profound actually.

Regards.G.

graham christian

02-12-2012, 04:51 PM

Graham:

Why should anybody take something you say seriously is a very good question. Whether it be your claims of martial effectiveness, your claims regarding your teacher training at the Hut Dojo; your claims of humor, rice, etc..... Establishing credibility is quite easy. Answer questions honestly and in a non-evasive manner. Demonstrate your claims to an independent audience. Those are two easy ways to start. If you step back and look at how well-informed people have responded to you, maybe you might see why it is that people bring into question your credibility. Nobody was looking to knock you down by challenging your claims when you first started posting on this forum. You created a dynamic in which many people have openly sought honest answers and sincere, cordial face-to-face meetings to which you studiously avoided. I applaud your effort in meeting with Mark Freeman. I can only hope that you continue on a path of being open and honest about legitimate inquiries into what you say and do.

Marc Abrams

Marc. We have a different thought process. I answer straight but when my answer is not accepted I am asked to explain. When I explain I'm accused of evasive. One thing missing here? Yes, I already answered but you or someone don't accept it. What can I say? Some well informed people don't accept what I say. That's not evasive on my part.

My problem, (although not really a problem to me) is that I do give straight answers that well-informed people disagree with or don't believe, therefore it is my honesty and straightforwardness that appears to be a problem for others from my perspective.

With regards to creating a dynamic as you put it is one thing I have found happens on this type of place ie: forum. You say there is a consequence to that and it equals therefore I must do this or do that as people are now interested in 'who is this charachter? or some such.' That is all new to me.

I think it's very easy to understand my views on the matter but once again find a certain few not accepting what I say. Well, that's a dead end for there's nothing more to say to such people.

Finally, applauding my meeting with Mark. I appreciate the sentiment but I have always been open to meet anyone if the purpose is reasonable and not some bravado thing.

Regards.G.

Marc Abrams

02-12-2012, 05:07 PM

Marc. We have a different thought process. I answer straight but when my answer is not accepted I am asked to explain. When I explain I'm accused of evasive. One thing missing here? Yes, I already answered but you or someone don't accept it. What can I say? Some well informed people don't accept what I say. That's not evasive on my part.

My problem, (although not really a problem to me) is that I do give straight answers that well-informed people disagree with or don't believe, therefore it is my honesty and straightforwardness that appears to be a problem for others from my perspective.

With regards to creating a dynamic as you put it is one thing I have found happens on this type of place ie: forum. You say there is a consequence to that and it equals therefore I must do this or do that as people are now interested in 'who is this charachter? or some such.' That is all new to me.

I think it's very easy to understand my views on the matter but once again find a certain few not accepting what I say. Well, that's a dead end for there's nothing more to say to such people.

Finally, applauding my meeting with Mark. I appreciate the sentiment but I have always been open to meet anyone if the purpose is reasonable and not some bravado thing.

Regards.G.

Graham:

If your perspective is not being reflected back to you by this community (which is the case here) then I think you might want to consider recalibrating what you are doing. Another issue that you seem to create is that when people do not agree with you, you dismiss what they say while propping up your position. Now, a lot of the people who have been providing you feedback have far more experience and knowledge than both you and I. It would go along way for you to be open to be wrong and misguided when faced with information that is far more informed than what you bring to bear. If you are not interested in recalibrating your thoughts based upon the feedback from others, then maybe you should stick to blogs.

If you are always open to meeting anyone if the purpose is reasonable and not some bravado thing, then I look forward to hearing from both you and Dan Harden about your upcoming meeting with him. You will be pleasantly surprised about the utter lack of bravado you will experience when you and Dan work out together. I was concerned about that very thing myself when I met Dan for the first time and was so happy to find a sincere, caring person who was so open to experiencing what we did and thought and shared openly as well.

Marc Abrams

graham christian

02-12-2012, 05:49 PM

Sorry, but I disagree. I choose who I would like to meet and who I wouldn't as does everyone else. Then it is also dependent on if they want to meet me also. Maybe 95% of people I do and 5% I don't.

You can offer your advice, it's up to you.

I could offer my advice to you but I wouldn't for I think that is too presumtious. As I said, different views.

There is no upcoming meeting between me and Dan. Another presumption?

Regards.G.

Marc Abrams

02-12-2012, 06:05 PM

Sorry, but I disagree. I choose who I would like to meet and who I wouldn't as does everyone else. Then it is also dependent on if they want to meet me also. Maybe 95% of people I do and 5% I don't.

You can offer your advice, it's up to you.

I could offer my advice to you but I wouldn't for I think that is too presumtious. As I said, different views.

There is no upcoming meeting between me and Dan. Another presumption?

Regards.G.

Here we go again..... You say:

I appreciate the sentiment but I have always been open to meet anyone if the purpose is reasonable and not some bravado thing.

Regards.G.

I assume that you were being honest and direct in your statement when you said "ANYONE"

Then you say:
Sorry, but I disagree. I choose who I would like to meet and who I wouldn't as does everyone else. Then it is also dependent on if they want to meet me also. Maybe 95% of people I do and 5% I don't.

This is yet another example of what I consider to less than honest and evasive posts from you. I apologize for giving you the benefit of doubt and making a presumption that you actually would stand behind your words. So much for a good faith attempt to try and encourage you to be candid and honest in what you say and do.

Marc Abrams

graham christian

02-12-2012, 06:19 PM

Here we go again..... You say:

I assume that you were being honest and direct in your statement when you said "ANYONE"

Then you say:

This is yet another example of what I consider to less than honest and evasive posts from you. I apologize for giving you the benefit of doubt and making a presumption that you actually would stand behind your words. So much for a good faith attempt to try and encourage you to be candid and honest in what you say and do.

Marc Abrams

Well I consider what you just did with what I said less than honest. A statement is not one word and given as such paints a different picture.

Is this another misunderstanding or deliberate?

mathewjgano

02-12-2012, 06:33 PM

This strikes me as a conversation for PM. Although I can see how it might fit the definition of Aikido Attacks, too. :p :D
Graham, did you end up writing a reply to my post yet? PM me about it please.
Make a nice day,
Matt

graham christian

02-12-2012, 06:38 PM

This strikes me as a conversation for PM. Although I can see how it might fit the definition of Aikido Attacks, too. :p :D
Graham, did you end up writing a reply to my post yet? PM me about it please.
Make a nice day,
Matt

Good idea Matthew. Thank you.

Regards.G.

Chris Li

02-12-2012, 07:04 PM

Sorry, but I disagree. I choose who I would like to meet and who I wouldn't as does everyone else. Then it is also dependent on if they want to meet me also. Maybe 95% of people I do and 5% I don't.

You can offer your advice, it's up to you.

I could offer my advice to you but I wouldn't for I think that is too presumtious. As I said, different views.

There is no upcoming meeting between me and Dan. Another presumption?

Regards.G.

Graham, I seriously think that you ought to consider Dan's request, I think that you would enjoy meeting him. He is one of the politest and most respectful people that I know, he only gets obnoxious after he gets to know you better :p .

Best,

Chris

graham christian

02-12-2012, 07:34 PM

Graham, I seriously think that you ought to consider Dan's request, I think that you would enjoy meeting him. He is one of the politest and most respectful people that I know, he only gets obnoxious after he gets to know you better :p .

Best,

Chris

Same goes for you Chris. If you think you have advice for me pm. Thank you.

Regards.G.

David Orange

02-13-2012, 09:03 PM

I can see where Graham could have taken Da Costa's clip as a total joke. I did, when I first saw it, and that made me wonder if maybe he was Graham's student.

So Graham's comment that this was "an old student" of his seemed like an actual claim. Clearly, Da Costa was spoofing...but what was he spoofing? An overly "spiritual" kind of teacher who makes very bad videos....?

Well, at least we got an introduction to Danny Da Costa, who seems like a great martial artist and a very good-humored guy. A real fighter.

Anyway, while I was on vacation (looks like a bunch of folks were put on suspension from aikiweb while I was away...:rolleyes: ), I noticed Stan Pranin's excellent post on aikidojournal.com, with Ueshiba's statement to "correct ourselves, not others."

And I think that's really the best approach.

Still, I want to remind everyone that Graham made many comments that some of the IS teachers in the discussions were selling "snake oil," etc., without having met them and without apparent understanding of what they were doing. So let's all be conscious of the insults, however passive they may be.

David

gates

02-13-2012, 11:11 PM

Still, I want to remind everyone that Graham made many comments that some of the IS teachers in the discussions were selling "snake oil," etc., without having met them and without apparent understanding of what they were doing. So let's all be conscious of the insults, however passive they may be.

David
Wasn't this incident quite a while ago? Didn't Graham publicly apologize?

Hi Keith.
Yes, seems I missed this comment from David on this thread. There was a so called incident a while ago. The incident was actually Dan asking me a question and me using, quoting, something he had said as an answer. This led to a private communication between the two of us where we cleared up some misunderstandings and announced so publicly.

Now I never would call anyone 'snake oil' anything and would never say my 'power' is greater than anyones.

We clash then and now in respect of 'ueshibas aikido' and definitions of 'aiki'. Thus it's actually a philosophical clash and from me anyway not personal.

I never mention anothers charachter for to me that shows lack of integrity.

I have pointed out today that anyone don't understand me regarding another person or personal reason for anything then pm is available.

A new policy for myself so that any personal or personality differences are removed from the forum.

It is a forum and from what the younger generation tell me you can never escape from such charachter referencing behaviour but I can decide and have decided not to respond to it from now on except by pm. (they can always come and visit me personally and be treated with kindness and accomodation rather than tell me who I should or shouldn't meet)