It is way, way, way out there. I think Bradley hasn't even found it yet,lol.

I was at a New England sport crag this weekend that has tons of great 10s, 11s, and 12s of the quality of some of the best of Rumney (It kind of reminded me of Orange Crush, some of the Main Cliff with some flavor of a southern sandstone crag thrown in..no joke) It was such a joy to be at a fully bolted crag of high quality that hasn't been ghettoized by people who have had their outdoor aesthetic skewed by too much formative time at the gym, a steep sport crag without ratty looking, dangerous fixed draws strewn all over it. If you grow up in a trailer park with a fat mom who sits around in her purple stretch pants smoking ciggies, you will probably think that is fine. This crag maintained the outdoor magic. I think I will generally refrain from publicizing my new sport routes unless they are at a generally trad area or otherwise have little chance of being over-run.

I would be more inclined to mention other crags if I saw the fixed draws at Rumney reduced to at least under 100, for aesthetic and safety reasons. I feel a little like when my best bivy spot got closed down from visiting climbers leaving dirty diapers laying around.

That's funny, Mark because, I was thinking 12 to 15 routes with fixed draws as the max. But I think 100 draws total is more realistic since for most climbs, we should only need to fix some of the draws but not all of them. I saw quite a bit of this practice down at The Red my last visit there.

amen mark. so many beautiful cliffs, with so many more up and coming. It's nice to keep some off the radar. But, you can't be bolting the next rumney, cause we are! Had a great day out at new said crag on sunday. It could use your eye, but i have been sworn to secrecy. :-)

How quickly do the draws degrade? Most of them are used on overhanging sections, so they probably weather/wear slowly (?). Would this fall under the general crag fund (same people who manage the bolting)? I'd be willing to donate some quick draws too, fwiw.

[if there's a better thread where this has already been discussed please point me there]

Between weathered draws and worn biners, the biners are the most dangerous part. If a draw simply snapped, you may not deck, but if a worn biner cuts your rope, you will. Leaving aesthetics aside and just dealing with the safety aspect, a lower number of fixed draws would make it easier to regularly keep track of wear and use the best gear (steel biners etc.)

Again, I agree with Mark, and while every good condition biner donated is appreciated, we should all think about replacing aluminium biners with steel ones when it comes to fixed draws. If you have to use Al, then put a good one on, preferrably one which is not made from "T" cross-sectionally shaped Al stock. Al biners made from round stock are very hard to find these days unless one resorts to using (gasp) oval biners .....

Of course, if we as climbers only used fixed draws where absolutely needed, and otherwise used and removed our own, the danger of old gear would be greatly lessened.

And to the earlier point, the aesthetics could be much improved. I know quite a few route developers who are totally into sport climbing and the convenience and safety that it entails, who feel that the whole fixed draw and general disregard for keeping our outdoor crags looking like they are outdoors has gotten completely out of hand. Pretty much all the main developers of the best New England sport crags whom I have spoken to feel that way and therefor are becoming much more hesitant to share new areas. If we as a community could step back and get a little under control, it would be better for all of us. We would have more, better looking crags, better relations with the land managers and safer climbing.

If we as a community could step back and get a little under control, it would be better for all of us. We would have more, better looking crags, better relations with the land managers and safer climbing.

Tried that recently in an unrelated area. Not all climbers are receptive. If the access fund has a presence in your area, perhaps they could assist (since those issues could end up impacting access to area(s) and safety of climbers).

IMO I would think if there was a safety issue, like Orangahang where falling on a TR risks shearing your rope, or if its very difficult to clean, those are legitimate reasons for fixed draws, also if a bolt had to go in a spot that is unusually difficult to clip without a preplaced draw. In rare instances, if a few fixed draws helps eliminate a clusterfuck and keeps people moving along, they are worth it.

In balance against the negatives, I don't think pure speed and convenience or having to know a few techniques for cleaning your draws are legit. The safety issues, ghettoizing the crag and upsetting land managers and other users and the effort, organization and cost needed to keep them up is not worth it.

Is the Outback Cave on the north side of the Rattlesnake hiking trail? I have noticed a little bit of rock peaking out from the hillside when approaching from Sandy Hill Road. Is the Outback Cave more difficult to find than the Infinity Wall, hah!

IMO I would think if there was a safety issue, like Orangahang where falling on a TR risks shearing your rope, or if its very difficult to clean, those are legitimate reasons for fixed draws, also if a bolt had to go in a spot that is unusually difficult to clip without a preplaced draw. In rare instances, if a few fixed draws helps eliminate a clusterfuck and keeps people moving along, they are worth it. In balance against the negatives, I don't think pure speed and convenience or having to know a few techniques for cleaning your draws are legit. The safety issues, ghettoizing the crag and upsetting land managers and other users and the effort, organization and cost needed to keep them up is not worth it.

This is pretty much exactly what I've come to believe, Mark. Thanks for stating it well.