How much of a pace gap do you guys think there is between the leading drivers Hamilton, Vettel etc to Narain (assuming he is the slowest driver on the grid) I would think it would be about 1 second per lap on average.

As a fan of Karthikeyan I thoroughly believe he'd get consistent points in a decent team, lets not forget he's always been in the worst car or 2nd worst.

Though I'd agree the worst driver (either Vergne or Senna imo) would be around 1-1.5 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, Alonso, Vet .. etc

vergne or senna.... Hmm not sure about that quali yes senna was awful but his race pace was very decent so that doesn't really stack up same with vergne i thought. Its all well and good putting it together for a quali lap but f1 isn't a 1 lap race both drivers showed good race pace imo. If your looking at who loses more time per lap quali times aren't a good indicator as in a race you have traffic etc management of tires. Best bet is look at who lost most places from starting position during the season, even that is hard as cars can be good in quali not races eg merc qualified high up toward the end of the season and just moved back during races.

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

I still say to this day that Karthikeyan is a solid driver and that he is basically past his better days.

Think about this. He tested for Jaguar in 2002 and did not sign to Jordan until 2005 and he was 28 years old. Karthikeyan quali pace was great at some points he would have outqualified Monteiro by a 1-1.5 seconds sometimes. Being in a old Jordan then being in an HRT does not help and I think he was never really given the opprotunity to really impress and even I remember when Jenson Button said he was a pretty damn good driver. Its just the fact that he never really had something decent to drive.

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

If not for your signature I would assume this is a joke. As is, I'm still not sure...

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

If not for your signature I would assume this is a joke. As is, I'm still not sure...

Narain has been doing a good job. It is not easy to progress when in a team that is struggling resourcewise as HRT are. At times he has beaten de la Rosa who is a very good, experienced driver. Karthikeyans race finishing time average for 2012 was 0.1 faster than Pedro's, which is some achievement.

By my calculations/ratings, both drivers are just over 1 second per lap slower as drivers, car-neutral, at 101.1 for NK and 101.2 fro PdlR. This compares with Badoer's 102.0 and Fisichella's 101.3 driver-ratings when they stepped into Massa's 2009 Ferrari. Fisi was no slouch. These stats are from my ratings system (see my blog for more explanation of how it works).

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

I honestly can't tell if this is a joke!

But I think its hard to compare a driver like Narain because we have only ever seen him in an awful car right at the back, but if he was faster than the car then i think over time, he would of consistently beat Pedro, which he didn't.

_________________A man exists for only a lifetime, a name lasts until the end of time.

He was good in early part of his career, but he was good enough to be at the back. He did well at Macau and some other places in not so good cars, so he must have had some promise. However, being at the tail end, and for long can't help. He never had a competitive drive, but how many get to even test for one of the leading teams. I think bringing back testing proper will allow us to possibly see more drivers in better cars, and it will make drawing inferences/ parallels easier.

I know this doesn't count as a proper statistical trial, but IIRC Michael Schumacher beat Narain by 6 odd seconds in the ROC Nations Cup. Of course, we'd have to do many more races to form a true idea of who is faster and by how much.

My personal opinion is that Narain is quite a bit slower than for example Kimi and Lewis, but how big the gap is, I'm not sure. While I don't think he'd ever have seriously troubled Michael if we did more ROC "tests", I do think that perhaps with more time to learn the car, he'd build up speed gradually, and close the gap slightly. Of course, many will say that part of being a good racing driver is being able to get in a car you don't know too much about and being bang on the pace.

Conclusion: Narain won't challenge a top driver in the same car. How big the gap is, I don't know, but I am tempted to believe he would be well and truly trampled.

When he raced for Jordan in 2005 I thought he was pretty decent given the car was only just ahead of the slowest team Minardi. At first he easily outperformed Monteiro but at some point Monteiro got the better of him even. Monteiro was retained for another season but didn't prove to be anything special either. Narain spend some time with williams as test driver. That he he got a new chance with HRT was a surprise. That he didn't deliver was actually no surprise. He showed potential at the start of 2005 but that didn't last very long.However I don't think he was as bad as for example Ide or Deletraz. I think he is better than Yoong too. I think he would be on the level of Tarso Marques who also showed early promise but quickly faded.

When he raced for Jordan in 2005 I thought he was pretty decent given the car was only just ahead of the slowest team Minardi. At first he easily outperformed Monteiro but at some point Monteiro got the better of him even. Monteiro was retained for another season but didn't prove to be anything special either. Narain spend some time with williams as test driver. That he he got a new chance with HRT was a surprise. That he didn't deliver was actually no surprise. He showed potential at the start of 2005 but that didn't last very long.However I don't think he was as bad as for example Ide or Deletraz. I think he is better than Yoong too. I think he would be on the level of Tarso Marques who also showed early promise but quickly faded.

Very good assessment of Narain K. And I like your model pic and driver subject.

Narain has been doing a good job. It is not easy to progress when in a team that is struggling resourcewise as HRT are. At times he has beaten de la Rosa who is a very good, experienced driver. Karthikeyans race finishing time average for 2012 was 0.1 faster than Pedro's, which is some achievement.

By my calculations/ratings, both drivers are just over 1 second per lap slower as drivers, car-neutral, at 101.1 for NK and 101.2 fro PdlR. This compares with Badoer's 102.0 and Fisichella's 101.3 driver-ratings when they stepped into Massa's 2009 Ferrari. Fisi was no slouch. These stats are from my ratings system (see my blog for more explanation of how it works).

Good OP topic; all to easy to downgrade drivers in tail-end teams.

How does the current spread of driver speed on your system compare to previous eras?

ie, you say that de la Rosa is 101.2, which assuming there isn't a slower driver makes the spread for 2012 100.0 to 101.2 - how does this compare? Are we looking at the closest field or has there been other times it has been as close (or closer)

I guess a line graph, with spread on one axis and year on the other would be the ideal answer to my question, but that might be too much work (or giving out too much info)

Narain has been doing a good job. It is not easy to progress when in a team that is struggling resourcewise as HRT are. At times he has beaten de la Rosa who is a very good, experienced driver. Karthikeyans race finishing time average for 2012 was 0.1 faster than Pedro's, which is some achievement.

By my calculations/ratings, both drivers are just over 1 second per lap slower as drivers, car-neutral, at 101.1 for NK and 101.2 fro PdlR. This compares with Badoer's 102.0 and Fisichella's 101.3 driver-ratings when they stepped into Massa's 2009 Ferrari. Fisi was no slouch. These stats are from my ratings system (see my blog for more explanation of how it works).

Good OP topic; all to easy to downgrade drivers in tail-end teams.

How does the current spread of driver speed on your system compare to previous eras?

ie, you say that de la Rosa is 101.2, which assuming there isn't a slower driver makes the spread for 2012 100.0 to 101.2 - how does this compare? Are we looking at the closest field or has there been other times it has been as close (or closer)

I guess a line graph, with spread on one axis and year on the other would be the ideal answer to my question, but that might be too much work (or giving out too much info)

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

When he raced for Jordan in 2005 I thought he was pretty decent given the car was only just ahead of the slowest team Minardi. At first he easily outperformed Monteiro but at some point Monteiro got the better of him even. Monteiro was retained for another season but didn't prove to be anything special either. Narain spend some time with williams as test driver. That he he got a new chance with HRT was a surprise. That he didn't deliver was actually no surprise. He showed potential at the start of 2005 but that didn't last very long.However I don't think he was as bad as for example Ide or Deletraz. I think he is better than Yoong too. I think he would be on the level of Tarso Marques who also showed early promise but quickly faded.

Very good assessment of Narain K. And I like your model pic and driver subject.

Agreed. I like Narain and he's not that bad. Certainly when he first joined. But he did seem to lose his speed over time.

Alien and Mikey: interesting question for which I have done the stats, but not analysed, just listed in tables for each season.The standard of the whole fields today is higher than earlier times, because of the big-business professionalism of the teams, the cars, drivers, karting backgrounds, etc. Drivers are 'bunched' closer, cars even more so.

Excuse the scrappy format, but until the eighties many teams/drivers only appeared a few times, and could be considered outliers, when the drivers rated at over 104.0 or so. A study like this would really have to be done in a more structured format. The above is a quick scan of the slowest drivers as rated on my system.

I have three ratings tables for each season, packages, drivers and cars, and am working on publishing it.With sharp-eyed b---------s like PF1ers, I have to spend a lot of time checking before leaping off the the plank.

Alien and Mikey: interesting question for which I have done the stats, but not analysed, just listed in tables for each season.The standard of the whole fields today is higher than earlier times, because of the big-business professionalism of the teams, the cars, drivers, karting backgrounds, etc. Drivers are 'bunched' closer, cars even more so.

Excuse the scrappy format, but until the eighties many teams/drivers only appeared a few times, and could be considered outliers, when the drivers rated at over 104.0 or so. A study like this would really have to be done in a more structured format. The above is a quick scan of the slowest drivers as rated on my system.

I have three ratings tables for each season, packages, drivers and cars, and am working on publishing it.With sharp-eyed b---------s like PF1ers, I have to spend a lot of time checking before leaping off the the plank.

Thanks for posting!

Interesting that in 1970, there was a peak in talent, which coincides with Jackie Stewart's belief that that was the last true "Golden Age" (rather than the mid 80s which most people refer back to)

It's also interesting that even back in 1950, the gap wasn't huge. Although obviously these numbers are based on 100.0 being the fastest driver that season, and it is arguable that not only has the depth of talent increased, but the training the top drivers go through means their talents are better exploited than the top talents of previous generations.

A close field could also be a lack of talent, its only a relative measure.

Remove Schumacher from 1994-1997 and possibly even beyond and that is a pretty weak field with hindsight. Remove Schumacher and Damon Hill and Hakkinen would be talked about in the same breath as Prost, Senna, Fangion as multiple World Champions.

Though he appears to struggle at times, I've little doubt in my mind he'd have been able to challenge the likes of Senna if he was born 20 years earlier. The man is one of the quickest things on four wheels. He's cool, calm and collected, hiding his fierce determination and mind-blowing ability behind an unassuming smile. If Vettel is only successful because of Red Bull's designers, then Karthikeyan is only unsuccessful because of the designers of the EJ15 and the F111 and '12 failing to meet competitive standard. One of the true losses to motorsport is that Karthikeyan never received a position in a top-tier team. The Vettel incident in Malaysia last year was caused by a clash of egos: two great men battling it out for the ultimate prize; two gladiators of the modern Colosseum vying for supremacy over the other. Unfortunately I fear that, much as with Senna and Prost, and Hamilton and Alonso, top teams have not yet hired Karthikeyan because of the likelihood of him upsetting the balance of power in their squad. He's a commanding figure and though the long-term gains may be bountiful, few teams can risk a championship or two now in order to try and win five in the hands of Narain. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes Narain Karthikeyan, the pride of India, will be back. The powers that be may believe they have finally rid the grid of this bad boy, but few obstacles can hold back the fastest thing this side of Delhi.

You should write a novel mate. You’re good at it.

But on the topic of Karthikeyan, I don’t know how to rate his performance these days, but I do recall him showing a lot of promise back in the Jordan days battling with Monteiro. So you maybe right, if he has a good car - he (the old Narain, that is) probably can perform better than any of the middle order lot to say the least. Yes, he did have talent; nobody questions that. He used to beat Button back in British Formula 3 racing? But the question is how much he has slipped off now. Lack in confidence and all that. Just like in any other sports, F1 drivers too have their highs ‘n lows. You only need to ask Felipe Massa. In Massa's case he lost confidence of his ability to perform once the realization set-in that he was to be treated as the 2nd driver at Ferrari. So automatically a psychological realization sets-in that the world sees that there is somebody better than you. I think the same holds true for Karthikeyen, when even the so-called Indian F1 team on the grid don't want to take him on board. Didn't Hamilton even suggest that? So how can he genuinely believe the world sees him anymore than a back-marker joke?

So it's not the same case as Vettel - who is right now at the top of his performance.

Alien and Mikey: interesting question for which I have done the stats, but not analysed, just listed in tables for each season.The standard of the whole fields today is higher than earlier times, because of the big-business professionalism of the teams, the cars, drivers, karting backgrounds, etc. Drivers are 'bunched' closer, cars even more so.

Excuse the scrappy format, but until the eighties many teams/drivers only appeared a few times, and could be considered outliers, when the drivers rated at over 104.0 or so. A study like this would really have to be done in a more structured format. The above is a quick scan of the slowest drivers as rated on my system.

I have three ratings tables for each season, packages, drivers and cars, and am working on publishing it.With sharp-eyed b---------s like PF1ers, I have to spend a lot of time checking before leaping off the the plank.

Does your calculation system regarding the drivers take into account the differences between the cars and remove it or leave it? As in, obviously Karthikeyan will be slower than Vettel based on the HRT vs the Red Bull, but does your system have a way of removing that from the picture? I'm certainly not expecting you to reveal how that would be done, just curious if it is.

Oh, and thankyou for all the effort you go to in providing data in the many threads that you do. It is greatly appreciated.

Does your calculation system regarding the drivers take into account the differences between the cars and remove it or leave it? As in, obviously Karthikeyan will be slower than Vettel based on the HRT vs the Red Bull, but does your system have a way of removing that from the picture? I'm certainly not expecting you to reveal how that would be done, just curious if it is.

I do believe it does, as he's explained it before (I think). If the system was affected by the pace of a driver's car, then it'd be completely flawed.

It's never that simple to assess drivers who have never had competitive machinery, but that fact that he was destroyed in qualifying and the majority of races by the 41-year old de la Rosa is rather telling.

de la Rosa himself was beaten fairly soundly by Raikkonen when he was called up to drive the McLaren in 2006 (although arguably did very well considering he was thrown in at the deep end).