Several months back I wrote a post titled Next Phase of the Hypergamous Arms Race: Revenge of the Nerds? In the post I asked the question if today’s round of carousel riders weren’t taking a great risk in their plan to con some unsuspecting beta into marrying and supporting them once they tired of the carousel. I pointed out that in their attempt to con a beta, they ran the risk of having the beta turn the tables on them.

Marcos commented on the thread and said he in fact does exactly what I was pondering:

No matter what lake you find them in, the bait is the same. When they ask you (Trust me – they will! Several times) why you’re 34, 35 whatever years old and never married you just take a moment and say, “Candidly? I haven’t found the right girl. I’m a traditional man and was raised to believe the man takes care of all the bills and financial responsibility. You know, where the woman doesn’t mind taking care of the home. I don’t mind that a woman has a job/career or whatever…In fact that’s great! But I don’t want her to feel that she has to work. That’s my job. Also, I’ve been working all these years to get to a position financially to where I can afford the lifestyle my kids deserve and now I’m ready to focus on the right girl and settle down. You’d be surprised how hard it is to find a woman who wants to have kids and settle down these days.” Say this very relaxed, matter-of-factly tone and it will work. Especially if she’s over 32. Result: deer in headlights. And they buy it. Wanna know why?

Because what I say above taps into the psyche of all carouseler women:
1) These women really don’t want to work for a living – they just want something to occupy their time.
2) These women want a man to take care of all their financial needs/wants without them ever having to care about pricetags.
3) Of course, her biological clock is at the 11th hour and 59th minute.
4) The last reason she’ll buy it: hope.

So in a nutshell, what Marcos is doing is looking for women looking to use sex to lure a man into marrying her and supporting her financially. He says some of these women are what we would call carousel riders, some are women who made their career their priority, and most are A la carte feminists (brilliant term!).

On that and other posts we’ve had many explanations for why a woman might find herself in her mid 30s and suddenly looking for a husband. J explained on the youtube post that many of them are former nuns:

I personally know half a dozen 30+ brides who once were nuns.

I’m not sure that former nuns make up a significant portion of women in this demographic. But lets assume for sake of argument Marcos is focusing on former nuns. This would make him evil, right? How dare he prey on innocent former nuns!

However, if they are trying to trade sex for financial security, how innocent can they be? I think this is the fundamental question. Marcos’ con won’t work on any woman not looking to trade sex (outside of marriage) for financial security. The old saw you can’t con an honest man comes to mind. If the nuns in question are chaste, Marcos isn’t going to waste any time on them. He didn’t say he is marrying them or even getting engaged. He’s dating them and sending signals that he would be a great man to try to get into a binding agreement to support her and any future children. If the woman isn’t looking to have him support her, she won’t be attracted by his “bait”. Moreover, if she isn’t willing to provide plenty of easy sex to lure him into a trap of her own, he isn’t going to waste his time with her.

In some ways, guys are like Marco are a necessary check-and-balance on the sexual marketplace. If guys like him didn’t exist, there would be very little downside to the endlessly cynical game a lot of these aging women are playing. Marco makes sure the risks are real and apparent, and that these women are made examples of to their younger sisters who will, hopefully, engage in smarter decisionmaking during the most attractive years of their lives.

Guys like Marco aren’t evil. Self-interested? Yes. Selfish? Perhaps. But evil? No. Marco’s behavior is a entirely rational response to social, demographic and economic changes that have happened over the last few decades in the Western world. Women have pursued these changes to accrue benefits at the expense of the men around them—but men are finally catching on. Imagine if there was gender war and men actually showed up?

Truly, it’s huge amounts of fun. You get them to send things, and one guy even tried to send me pictures of himself (sure) to prove his whole story. I really had the guy going. It’s our duty to do this.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. The right thing to do is to walk away from the icky situation rather than engaging it.

Personally I’m just too busy with my own stuff to care about Nigerian scammers or men like Marcos. They can’t do anything to me. I’m much more worried about the people who text while driving or speed through red lights, who can cause harm to me and people I care about. Or people who do things which result in awful chemicals in food and water systems, and then turn around and cost taxpayer money to pay for clean-ups.

True evil is on a much larger scale than small-time opportunists. Those who start cults to brainwash others for purely selfish motives and to collect lots of money, in my opinion, are some really evil people.

Some other things from Marcos’s post:
“my marks ..
and
Remember, the best, quickest way to make money is to sell hope or dreams to an unsuspecting public. For a single woman in her 30s, hope is all she has keeping her going.”

“However, if they are trying to trade sex for financial security, how innocent can they be?”
Are you saying that a woman (say a former nun or someone who was focused on her career) who has sex before marriage with a man who has indicated to her that he is in a committed relationship with her (and wants a traditional relationship where the man provides) is trading sex for financial security? And don’t many in the manosphere when giving advice to women tell them to not work on their careers and do traditional roles etc etc. Most (not all) men these days certainly wouldn’t hang around women who don’t have sex before marriage (and many would accuse them of being whores who will only have sex in return for financial commitment).

Sure if Marcus is a playboy, having sex with women who want to have sex with him for the fun of it, he’s taking advantage of the SMP for his own gains. Fair enough. But this comes across as deliberately preying on women and knowing he may cause harm to them.

How would you describe this ‘A la carte feminists’ that you call a brilliant term? Is it like Cafeteria Christianity?

“So in a nutshell, what Marcos is doing is looking for women looking to use sex to lure a man into marrying her and supporting her financially.”
Women using sex to lure a man to marry her? Is this 2010? Is any woman actually doing this? It’s not exactly a differentiator unless he’s been living in Salt Lake City.

I wouldn’t say he’s evil, just sleazy. Kind of surprised any women fall for his crap but then the national IQ level seems to just keep falling! The whole game thing does indeed work for some guys; the trouble is, do you just end up gaming yourself? After awhile, who are you? Can you shut off the game and have a real relationship?

Just a question, Dalrock, and I’m not trying to be a bitch. Why such an obsession with single women? They seem to annoy you personally. Is there an age cut-off where a woman MUST be married or she is a terrible person and a carousel rider?

Why not live and let live? We are not all meant to be married or become parents.

I’m old enough to remember all the nasty jokes about stupid housewives, about girls desperate to hook a man, any man, to drag down the altar. No man really WANTED to marry, it was a trap! No more fun – The old ball and chain! Now, things have changed – more women are staying single longer or permanently and opting out of motherhood entirely; this means more men can avoid the thing they so dread: MARRIAGE!! Eewwwww! They can live the happy bachelor life their entire lives.

Why such an obsession with single women? They seem to annoy you personally. Is there an age cut-off where a woman MUST be married or she is a terrible person and a carousel rider?

I don’t have any problem with women who wish to remain single. I’d be curious which post gave that impression. I also don’t have a problem with women who wish to marry. My problem is with women who want to apply the old rules to men, and new (or no) rules to themselves. So marry, don’t marry, all good. Marry and divorce without good reason, not good. Freebase cocaine while sleeping around on your husband, double plus ungood. Tramp around for a decade or so and then decide they are old fashioned when it comes to a man supporting them, I tend to take issue with that too. Like I said in another post: Old rules or new, take your pick.

Hey Justin. I agree with you that what this guy is doing is wrong and manipualtive. No argument.

My take however, is this: He is able to pull this stunt because the women involved fall for the line, and thinking this guy is the answer to their hopes and dreams, engage in yet another (IMO) immoral act and sleep with him, presumably as a way of manipulating him into offering a marriage proposal at some point. Are they being any less predatory than Marcos is the question to be answered.

Good Christian girls serious about maintianing their purity for their husbands will not get taken in.

Good Christian girls serious about maintaining their purity for their husbands will not get taken in.

I would take it a step further. Even girls not keeping themselves pure but with a sense of restraint probably will fall off his radar pretty quickly too. I’m going to assume he is lazy in addition to his other aforementioned qualities. A woman who waited for even a week or two of serious courting would probably not be worth his time. Given how much our culture has changed in this respect it wouldn’t make any sense for him to invest energy in such women. He’s looking for an easy score. The women who match that criteria will be those who are extremely easy and/or hoping to ensnare him with sex. If they are just naturally extremely easy then he hasn’t gotten them to do anything they wouldn’t do any other day of the week. If they aren’t typically so easy and ramped it up for bait, then they were looking to manipulate him. What he has deprived them of is his falling for their manipulation.

How would you describe this ‘A la carte feminists’ that you call a brilliant term? Is it like Cafeteria Christianity?

Yes. Think the sex appeal and personality of Rosie the Riveter combined with the work ethic and self reliance of Peg Bundy. Or stands to pee but expects men to stand when she enters the room. Guys with your own examples, feel free to chime in.

Sure if Marcus is a playboy, having sex with women who want to have sex with him for the fun of it, he’s taking advantage of the SMP for his own gains.

Exactly. And if they are doing it not because they want to have sex with him but because they think he’ll be more likely to offer to support them financially, well there’s a word for that.

Most (not all) men these days certainly wouldn’t hang around women who don’t have sex before marriage (and many would accuse them of being whores who will only have sex in return for financial commitment).

This is true for women who all of a sudden discover that they place high value on their sexual purity when they decide to go on a husband hunt. It isn’t at all true for women who have valued their purity all along.

I’m old enough to remember all the nasty jokes about stupid housewives, about girls desperate to hook a man, any man, to drag down the altar. ….happy bachelor life their entire lives. So where’s the problem?

On that and other posts we’ve had many explanations for why a woman might find herself in her mid 30s and suddenly looking for a husband. J explained on the youtube post that many of them are former nuns:

D, as fatuous as you make the original remark sound, my point was that if you don’t know someone’s personal circumstance, you can’t make assumptions about their past. I do indeed know several laicized nuns who are now married with kids. My knowing so many of them was a result of being in a particular work situation, not of general demographics, but it does underline (in an exaggerated way, of course) the fact you can’t brand a woman a carousel rider solely because she married late.

I remind you both Susan Walsh and I have been called carousel riders by manosphere posters. Yet Susan wound up being the “helpful auntie” of the manosphere, and I was more of “school marm” than a carousel rider. I hope that Marcos knows the difference in his interactionbs with women.

Women using sex to lure a man to marry her? Is this 2010? Is any woman actually doing this?

The manosphere is full of tales of women using sex to trick men into marriage. Why some women even will use a discarded condom to impregnane themselves in order to get marriage or at least child support…..in the manosphere’s active fantasy life. It’s the male equivalent of the “rape culture”–where the sex + feminists decided that since some men rape, there is a whole culture devoted to it. This is what comes of cheery picking through the interwebs to find stories that confirm your prejudices and then believing that the world you’ve constructed actually exists.

Some of the guys at the spearhead might give the impression that any woman looking to marry is trying to trap a man for divorce theft. Others err on the other side and try to give the impression that carouselers are really mostly just former nuns.

D, as fatuous as you make the original remark sound, my point was that if you don’t know someone’s personal circumstance, you can’t make assumptions about their past.

Sure you can. In fact, you have to. You are arguing we should assume they are innocent, for example. In the post in question I said they may well be innocent (and mentioned three examples), but said it should give a man pause.

I think Marcos’s behavior is very anti-social and certainly contributes in small part to further fracturing of male/female relationships. However, this is how humans behave and is part of a broken system correcting itself. People, male and female, are free to act in their own self-interest and should in fact protect themselves from predatory people, male or female. They also must acknowledge that sometimes bad behavior results in unpleasantness. The sad fact is that people don’t change their behavior usually unless there is pain involved, often a great deal of pain. That’s what he’s dealing out: pain. What we can’t assess accurately, without significantly more information, is whether the people he’s dealing it out to really “deserve” it; that is, if he’s conning cons or conning clueless people without malicious intent.

I think Marcos’s behavior is very anti-social and certainly contributes in small part to further fracturing of male/female relationships. However, this is how humans behave and is part of a broken system correcting itself.

Except that behavior of that sort really does predate feminism. It’s just good, old fashion caddishness.

Cox and Arquette have been separated for about four months or so. According to Arquette’s interview with Howard Stern, they had stopped having sex because Cox stopped being attracted to her husband – she was tired of “being his mother” – and started having an emotional affair with her alphalicious co-star. Since the split, Arquette had sex with a woman who has been around the block with a lot of men in Hollywood. Arquette maintains that he would like to reconcile with his wife and that the age difference bothered Cox and not him. This really doesn’t sound like an issue of “hot young husband dumps craggly old wife for young babeage,” but just a typical “husband turned beta, wife stopped being attracted to him” situation.

Yes. Interestingly, it is not that long ago that a woman could sue a man who led her on to give him sex with promises of marriage. It was called Breach of Promise, and was very serious indeed. It led to a saying, “Do right, and fear no man. Don’t write and fear no woman.” The joke being that if you wrote a woman an offer of marriage, and then called it off, you could be plausibly sued.

Except that behavior of that sort really does predate feminism. It’s just good, old fashion caddishness.

True. The real difference is the length of the line of women signing up to have sex with the cad and/or stranger. Try to interfere and they will squeal “I never get to have any fun!” Very well then. Carry on er, ladies.

I’m not sure this is a case of the law changing to benefit men, or simply becoming redundant. Now they would simply sue to declare that he had really married them. So suing him for not marrying them would tend to weaken the case that they were really married. :)

I don’t have any expertise in the mechanics of attraction, but I think Roissy probably has this one generally right. I’m guessing Athol Kay could offer a more thoughtful balanced view on this too (assuming he hasn’t already). But I would say to the extent that this works for any given couple, more power to them. I think the real danger is the media trying to sell the idea that water all of a sudden runs uphill. As with so many other cases this could lead to plenty of heartbreak as feminist inspired delusions crash into the iceberg of reality. But on the bright side, there seems to be less likelihood of children being caught up in any resulting destruction.

I thought the video was hysterical. The shaming of 30 year old men for being “immature” for starters. I don’t recall ever reading such hand-wringing about 30 something (or even 20 something) women being too immature for their significantly older husbands. And after spending the whole video giving the hard sell to the idea that this is the new reality, they ended with an appeal to men to acknowledge this new reality. Wait, isn’t that what you said men were doing?

We celebrated this last new years eve with two other couples. In one of the couples the woman looked to be 15-20 years older than the man. She looked 60 ish, and he looked 40 ish. Their actual ages may well have been closer, but the looks probably matter more here than actual ages. They represented themselves as husband and wife, and my wife and I found them to be a very strange couple. Later I told my wife there had to be money involved, most likely the life insurance this woman received from the death of her second husband. About four months later we learned from our mutual friend that this couple had split up, and had never been married. As suspected the relationship fell apart when they had spent through the life insurance money.

Feminists are so dead set on emulating men, they don’t stop to think about what it means sometimes. Now they want to emulate being taken to the cleaners by golddigers. Fair enough I guess…

I know 4 couples where the woman is older than the man. In three of the woman the age difference is 4-8 years. The women are 47-53 so the guys are in their 40s.

Two married 15 years +, the other was married about 8 years and has recently got divorced. I just realised the one that got divorced her husband is ‘lower status’ than her. Probably similar incomes, but he’s lower status. She wasn’t the one to want the divorce (though she ended up being the one to file). The other two, in one case the husband earns significantly more, in the other the husband earns significantly less but in both cases the husband has ‘equal or higher status’ than the wife.

In the last case, she is about 65 now and he is about 50. Unmarried but been together about 10 years. I would not be surprised if he had been unfaithful as he travelled for his work and he was a bit of a ‘lad’ type. I used the past tense as sadly in the last couple of years he has got very ill. She’s been taking care of him in every way. I think he’s unlikely to be able to work again he worked with his hands, and I doubt he had a pension so it’s probably just as well they are together, she’s taking care of him in all ways. Probably not quite the toyboy she had in mind! I think she had been looking for a toyboy, the others weren’t, just whom they ended up.

I must say being in my 30s, I can’t imagine being with a man in his 20s. Maybe for casual sex if I were that way inclined (if you’re going to have casual sex, may as well have it with someone with the best body who will have sex with you lol) but a LTR/marriage?

I think some men who have LTRs/marriages with older women may have mommy issues, but that’s just the same with a younger woman/older man and daddy issues. It’s not something inherent.

In any case, I think Haley’s right, it doesn’t seem to be about the age in this case. Any case it’s not much? About 6 years? And isn’t her alleged new guy about the same age?

Why is David Arquette calling into the radio though? What do you think Dalrock? Do you think it’s tacky like you think the EPL woman is, or not?

Women pee standing up in Ghana, according to my husband who lived there for over a year. He says the women would spread their legs a bit, hike up their skirts, and just pee standing. And somehow it works for them. Maybe a lifetime of practice?

Women feeling like their men’s mothers is certainly not confined to younger men, quite possible even when the man is 5 or 10 years older than the woman.

Yes, indeed. I think the two primary causes of that are:

–picking after the guy and doing other mom-like caretaker stuff
–the man working out mom issues in the relationship, projecting his mother’s qualities on to the wife, saying “You remind me of my mother.”

Interestingly enough, both men and women tend to pick spouses who remind them of their mother, so playing out the mother-child relationship is sort of inevitable.

I don’t recall ever reading such hand-wringing about 30 something (or even 20 something) women being too immature for their significantly older husbands.

That’s because you aren’t quite old enough to be having that discussion. When you and your kids are older, you’ll heard both men and women in your peer group ask, “What the hell is that old buck doing with a girl who could be his daughter? What the hell do they talk about? Wanna bet that talking has nothing to do with it?”

I don’t think people really realize how young and immature a 20 year old woman really can be until they have a daughter that age. One thing that people in the Roissy-sphere forget is that many fathers of girls regard a relationship with a girl the daughter’s age as taboo. My own father was once offered a $20 BJ by a hooker who looked like she was my age at the time. He refused the BJ but offered to by the girl a plane ticket home to her parents. He didn’t want a BJ from a baby.
[Ed: I should have clarified. I’ve seen the hand-wringing you describe. What’s wrong with him that he wants to be with such a young immature woman. This hand-wringing was different. It was why are these younger guys so immature? How are these poor women supposed to put up with it?]

I do think the age difference is part of it and I think it’s a part of it because women in general are insecure about getting older. Not necessarily paranoid, but apprehensive. Maybe it’s just that I’m 39, but I know for me the prospect of turning 40 gets my mental wheels turning.

If I were married to a man 10 or more years younger than I, the insecurities would be magnified times 10. Because I have been with my husband since I was very young and he was very young, we have a lot going on besides the surface stuff, although there is still a lot of chemistry between us even after 16 years. Even that, though is because sticking with each other through all the ups and downs has built a trust that supports everything else.

The other thing that this “expert” wanted to brush under the rug and dismiss was the fact that statisically, men married to higher status women tend to cheat at exponentially higher rates. I’m not saying women shouldn’t achieve just because I chose to expend my life’s energy being a wife and having and raising babies. I do think that men and women are both hard-wired to be more comfortable with the old rules, so when the new rules are interjected, a higher status woman may make her husband feel inadequate and the man may feel like he’s married to a mommy.

I’ve seen this even in ordinary couples where the husband was unemployed and the wife was the primary breadwinner just temporarily. The dynamic was unmistakable.

IIRC, breach of promise laws were struck down because they were considered paternalistic and women were capable of taking care of themselves. I think it would have been better to extend breach of promise laws to men. That way wouold have equally enforced honesty in relationships across the board instead of promoting dishonesty.

The real difference is the length of the line of women signing up to have sex with the cad and/or stranger. Try to interfere and they will squeal “I never get to have any fun!”

I couldn’t tell ya, D. I wasn’t standing in that line. Neither was your wife, nor most of the female commenters here, nor probably the majority of the non-nun population either. As your own stats show, we are not talking about a majority of women here. IMO, if sluts want to line up to screw Marcos, oh well… But, while I personally agree with you that even holding off a few weeks before jumping into bed can save a lot of heartache, I do object to men intentionally conning women and taking advantage of the stupid and the desperate.

Thanks! Whenever I think about having my own blog, I plan on doing an article on urine diverters as they are called. You can get them in camping stores and medical supply stores. I understand that the US military issues them to female soldiers as well. Ever since I sat on a cactus this summer, I’ve been thinking about a review/comparison of several products. Most of them are paper disposibles or look like the one you linked to, but this one kills me: http://shenis.com

Holding off in itself wouldn’t deter a real cad. They may even see it as challenge to get the lay. If they are getting sex somewhere else in their harem, can easily put on the 1-2 nights a week on dates till the time they get what they want. This is true, I read it on the interwebz.

it’s just that I’m 39, but I know for me the prospect of turning 40 gets my mental wheels turning.

Yeah, it did for me too, but in retrospect that seems silly.

I probably say this too much online and end up looking conceited, but I say it because I don’t want women to believe the manosphere notion that after 40 a woman hits the wall and everything is over.

I’m over 50. To my great surprise, I still get multiple IOIs per week–usually from 50+ men, but occasionally from younger men as well–despite my being a modest dresser. And, my husband and I still enjoy an active love life. If your husband loves you, 40’s nothing.

I’m not saying women shouldn’t achieve just because I chose to expend my life’s energy being a wife and having and raising babies. I do think that men and women are both hard-wired to be more comfortable with the old rules, so when the new rules are interjected, a higher status woman may make her husband feel inadequate and the man

Which old rules? In hunter-gather societies, women bring in most of the food. Men bring in meat sporadically. Once we became agricutural, farm wives were invaluable in running farms. The wives of craftsmen and shopkeepers were likewise invaluable to famiky businesses. Women having jobs that might give them leverage and status has only been a problem since women began working in non-family venues.

why are these younger guys so immature? How are these poor women supposed to put up with it?

Yeah, that’s stupid, I agree. On a serios note, I would assume that younger guys are immature because younger people are less mature than older people. Same with younger women. If you go younger, you have to put up with it.

In terms of the Cox-Arquette marriage, she is less than ten years older than he is. By the late thirites/early forties, the maturity gap closing. I don’t think that 10 years is an issue no matter who is older. Madoona or Cher and respective boy-toys is a different story.

Women having jobs that might give them leverage and status has only been a problem since women began working in non-family venues.

You hit on a key point, J. The fact is that when women worked way back when, their work was tied to the livelihood of the family. Now the work is tied to self-fulfillment as much as it is to bringing in money for the family.

When my husband first requested that I come home, and I complied, it was difficult for me for at least 5 years. I always felt like being dependent upon him for financial needs made me somehow “less than”. And I felt this way even though he has never rationed funds, or given me an allowance, or even spent money on anything major without running it by me. I spend as I see fit and he trusts me to handle our budget as an equal partner. Still, I felt like a failure for years because I was independent. How crazy is that?

Thanks for the encouragement about getting older. I know a lot of what is said in the manosphere about women my age is just silly. I look good. My husband says I look good. Black women don’t even start to wrinkle at all until about 55 anyway. We have a great physical relationship. I think it’s just something about the number, you know? The reality that I will officially unable to categorize myself as “young.”

Now the work is tied to self-fulfillment as much as it is to bringing in money for the family.

I do work outside the house part-time. Now that my hours have been cut, both the hubs and I have become how acutely aware of how my work benefitted the family. He’s been the primary wage-earner since the kids came along, so we’re not broke. But we are tightening our belts.

When my husband first requested that I come home, and I complied, it was difficult for me for at least 5 years. I always felt like being dependent upon him for financial needs made me somehow “less than”….Still, I felt like a failure for years because I was independent. How crazy is that?

It’s not. No matter how good you husband is about it, there is a real self-esteem boost that comes from making money, and it’s far more tangible than the economic value of your work is.

Thanks for the encouragement about getting older.

Any time!

a lot of what is said in the manosphere about women my age is just silly. I look good. My husband says I look good.

Well, it’s far more important to please your husband than it is to please some random Roissy poster. As long as I wake up every morning to some grab ass, I figure that Roissy’s wrong.

Black women don’t even start to wrinkle at all until about 55 anyway.

I’m an olive-skinned white woman. You gotta love melanin!

I think it’s just something about the number, you know? The reality that I will officially unable to categorize myself as “young.”

I would not advise lying, even to an ex-carousel rider better to be a callous jerk with honesty than to lie and compromise yourself. You can still run game on a woman and be honest. If you are against marriage then why not just say so?

I also think the ex-nun argument is ridiculous. Just how many ex-nuns could there possibly be?

[D: Everyone’s a critic. The ex nuns were the best part of the whole post.]

@TerryWhen my husband first requested that I come home, and I complied, it was difficult for me for at least 5 years. I always felt like being dependent upon him for financial needs made me somehow “less than”.

I think this is unfortunately quite universal, and at least partly due to feminist pot stirring. I think most men are actually sympathetic to this. My wife feels the same way right now, but her working wouldn’t be practical with a young baby. I know my sister struggled with the same thing. She is a full time mom with three kids. Her husband works an extra weekend a month which fills in the gap of her missing salary (he is a surgeon). I think feminists pouncing on this is absolutely cruel.

I know a lot of what is said in the manosphere about women my age is just silly. I look good. My husband says I look good.

Roissy has a bug about this. Luckily I think most husbands are like yours in this regard. In the end you only need to turn one head, and it sounds like you have no problems there. I’m with you on turning 40. I did this year and it was a bit of a shock.

I have to respectfully disagree with one part of your response to me, and it’s this:

It’s not. No matter how good you husband is about it, there is a real self-esteem boost that comes from making money, and it’s far more tangible than the economic value of your work is.

I used to think that was true. It’s why I struggled so much at the beginning. But 15 years later, I can honestly say that no paycheck can replace what I have accomplished and been a part of here.

It’s interesting that I read this right after a reading lesson with my 4-year-old. How many mothers can say that they taught their child how to read? Not that they supported the teacher’s efforts (nothing wrong with that. I did it with my oldest 3), but that they taught their child to read? Very few can say it.

I have learned to cherish every minute with my kids and appreciate every thing that I do to make my husband’s life easier and build a family legacy that will, God willing, last for generations.

It took a while for me to realize how important my work really is, but I do now. The rewards are much more tangible and far more valuable than a paycheck.

I guess “tangible” was the wrong word, but I can’t think of a better one right now. I meant to say that money is something you can actually put your hands on, spend, show people. The benefits of being home with kids are less evident; you can’t actually touch them. People don’t often notice them. That’s not to say it’s not extremely value; sometimes the most valuable things–love, faith, etc.–are intangible.

I do however fully agree with what you have to say about being a SAH mom. With the exception of teaching Sunday School, I was a SAH mom until my youngest went to K4, and I started to work flextime/part-time. The experience of being home was priceless. And, for me, it built self-esteem because it developed parts of me that I didn’t know I had.

How many mothers can say that they taught their child how to read?

I can! I taught both my sons to read. It’s the best possible start you can give a child! You should be very proud!

To me, earning/having my own money is about independence. This was something that was instilled in me by my father I think.

But we’re all different and women should do what is right for them. Some of my friends who are SAHMs who love being at home, some who work and would go mad staying at home and others who work but don’t really want to and are doing it for financial reasons. Some of the SAHMs do something for a bit from home e.g. writing, accountancy etc, some don’t. Though all my friends taught their children to read, children don’t start school till the age of 5 and any daycare beforehand is more play.

My boy and I are sorting out our respective work so that we can both be at home part time, so sometimes one of us will be home and sometimes both. We’re also going to do a bit of a nanny share with my friend next door to fill in the odd gap and so we can have some us time. Don’t know how it will work, but we’ll try it and see!

I know we’re lucky to be in a position to do this though, we will take a big personal income hit but worth it for us. We’ve both worked very hard and this is our adventure together. Anyway, now we’re at my place, he’s getting good rent on his bachelor pad so we won’t be quite on the streets.

“Yes. Interestingly, it is not that long ago that a woman could sue a man who led her on to give him sex with promises of marriage.”

Yes. This was when it was supposed (although not always true) that women had to save their virginity for her husband. So it was logic: the woman has given her more precious asset and she was entitled to sue the men who got it with false promises.

It is not supposed to apply to former sluts who have seen more traffic between the legs that the Golden Gate Bridge. Women who have had their fun for ten years and now, they want to make a hapless beta pay what lots of men have had for free.

You can use the old rules: chastity for women and chivalry for men. You can use the new rules: sexual liberation for women and no duty for men. But it is disingenous to appy the old rules for men and the new rules for women so women have all rights and no duty and men have all duties and no rights.

I quite agree, in theory. And I think men should only marry virgins. I did. But the reality is that women are capable of discounting the future by simply having fun when they are young and not worrying about the future. Men do this too, but in different ways. I chose a risky career path, and it paid off, eventually, but it has been hard and I chose not to listen to good advice when I was a young man. Also, when women are young, even the “good” ones can be hot little tamales. My fiancee was pretty ripe for the plucking when I got to her. Later, a woman cools as her hormones ease up. By her thirties she is no longer sexually interested in very assertive men and might prefer a more “beta” guy. It is not just that she is being dishonest. She might just have matured. As people do.

On the peeing standing up question, my wife usually sits like a lady, but she sometimes straddles the toilet bowl. Not sure whay. She can also pee standing up when we are outside, in the country. I just called an “abusive jerk” on another site. The woman might have had a point, because I actually disapprove of my wife urinating standing up, and I have told her so.

Yes, the guy is deliberately leading these women on — that’s true. That, in itself, is not new. It’s not a moral way to proceed, but most morality has been driven out of the sexual marketplace today — it’s rather Darwinian today, and the sensible approach is to work the system to try to get out of it what you want — whether that is an LTR or just sex — and also protect yourself from being used by others who are trying to get what they want at your expense.

As for this scheme and women providing sex, as others have pointed out, aren’t these women going to be having sex with their boyfriends long before they even are engaged to be married? I am morally against extra-marital sex, so my girlfriend and I are chaste, but I fully realize that this is not the norm in this sex-drenched relationship culture we live in. I would expect that most of these women are having sex with the men anyway. Once you cross that rubicon, it becomes a bit daft, it seems to me, to parse between what is moral and what is not. Yes, if you have sex with a boyfriend, he may very well be leading you on in order to get sex — welcome to Planet Earth. Is it a good thing that he has done so? No, not really, because it was deceitful. But once you start getting into the realm of extra-marital sex, you really do need to be aware that the risk of being used for sex is quite high.

I don’t have a lot of sympathy, however. Women are the sex that pushed for these changes to the sexual mores, by and large. To the extent that they get burned by them, it’s very hard for me to feel sympathy for them.

I won’t be able to stay at home for any extended period of time, only a few months. My husband is still in graduate school, and we won’t have a livable income if I quit my job. I am a bit envious of those who can afford to be stay at home mothers, but circumstances being what they are, I’m not extremely worried about it. As long as our family unit stays in tact and we have a loving marriage, which we do, it’s better than a lot of other alternatives.

“But the reality is that women are capable of discounting the future by simply having fun when they are young and not worrying about the future. ”

Well, men can have fun too. In their thirties. We don’t have the duty to marry the girls that despised us when we were younger. We have no obligations to these girls, even if we have sex with them.

“Later, a woman cools as her hormones ease up. By her thirties she is no longer sexually interested in very assertive men and might prefer a more “beta” guy. It is not just that she is being dishonest. She might just have matured. As people do.”

Well, it is an amazing coincidence that these girls “mature” where alpha guys don’t care about them any more. Then, it is the time to get a beta guy. They “mature” so well that, some years later, some of them are divorcing the beta guy to chase greener alpha pastures (70% of divorces are initiated by women).

Whatever the reason by which girls mature and whether they mature or not, men are not responsible for the bad decisions they made in their youth. When the girl has had their fun and it is ready to sell their used sex for financial security, it might be that beta are not interested in her.

Men have no duty to save a female from their own decisions. Women are grown-up and have to take responsibility of their actions.

“We don’t have the duty to marry the girls that despised us when we were younger. ”
No of course you don’t.

You shouldn’t marry anyone who despised you when you were young. Hell you shouldn’t even talk to them. Maybe you (not you personally of course) had bad clothes or zero social skills but any woman who does not have the grace to be polite to you, you shouldn’t have anything to do with them.

Hope, all the best. I don’t know if you have nanny shares where you live, it’s something that’s grown in the last few years where I live, but that may be something you could look into to see if it fits for you.

In some ways I wish I had met my boy when we were younger and we’d have been able to have more babies together than we probably can (and I think J said something similar about her and her husband). But we certainly wouldn’t have the options we have now which I consider myself very very lucky for.

I disagree about alpha chasers. The alpha carousel riders are a minority, no doubt about that. But the girls who wait for an alpha during their twenties and won’t settle for less are the majority.

So it is not that they are continuously having affairs by lots of alphas, but they prefer to be alone than to be with a beta. They are alone and, from time to time, they have in a relationship with alphas.

After all, it’s their life. I can’t criticize a woman who exercises their legitimate right to reject prospects that she doesn’t like.
They didn’t want them to give me a relationship in the past: it’s OK. Now I don’t want to give them marriage: it’s OK. Nobody has to be forced to give what s/he doesn’t want to give.

When I was young and beta, I was not angry because of being rejected (if they didn’t like me, they have the duty to reject me). But I was angry because of being rejected in a contemptuous manner.

Many girls in their twenties are drunk with their sexual power and think they can be smug, obnoxious and contemptuous when they reject a man. And they can. And they are.

After ten years, these smug princesses “don’t talk so loud, don’t seem so proud”, to use the Bob Dylan words. They are playing the victim card. “Why don’t men marry me?”. Instead of taking responsibility for their actions, they are blaming men for their mistakes.

I don’t have any pity and don’t have any feeling of chivalry towards women. Now that I have the power (because I have what they want: marriage with a successful man), I won’t treat them cruelly (like I was been treated) but I don’t feel it is my duty to care about their feelings.

The vast majority of men do, when the woman is way older. Men care more about physical beauty for sexual attraction a whole lot more than women do. As well, assuming each keeps the weight off, men tend to age a lot better than women do. A 35 year old man might get along with a 45 year old woman, but he’s likely to lose physical attraction to her. Courteny Cox when on TV has tons of heavy makeup on.

Even a bit older can be problematic as they age. Her being 5 to 10 years younger works way better and is vastly more common despite the feminist media’s push to make significantly older woman marriages more common.

My personal history probably differs from yours. I was an attractive young man, and I had women interested, but I was more interested in my scientific career. I had a few girls knock me back, but my “batting average” as Americans say, was fairly good.

I married a 25 year old sexy librarian (!), who was, as I said, ripe for plucking. I have watched her mature. I suppose she has calmed down a bit. She still responds like a woman to “game”, but she is not as young, juicy and naughty as she was once. I first asked her out because she had titillated me by telling me how she had been swimming naked in a pool at a house she was minding. Whether she did this on purpose, I have no idea to this day. Women keep their secrets.

I wasn’t really excusing the behaviour of the women you complain about, but I was trying to explain it. A lot of men say that women don’t plan ahead well – some women say it too – but young men are also notoriously inclined not to think ahead. I did some stupid things that could, but for “moral luck”, have resulted in tragedy. And I was a fairly quiet young bloke.

I do notice that my wife seems to live in the present more than me. Maybe women are bad at being strategic. But I was simply suggesting that you can’t really blame a girl for having fun when she can. She may think to herself that the world will have changed by the time she is 30. More likely, like most 20 year olds, she thinks that 30 will never come. It seems an eternity away when you are that young.

I work with some young hotties, but I don’t feel bad about them. I was young once, and I may not have bagged a lot of such creatures when I had the chance, but I never really wanted to. As I said, I was focussed on my career and I am the monogamous type anyway. I only ever wanted one cute virginal brunette. And that is what I got. Mission accomplished.

I am very religious too, and I regard sex with women outside marriage as fornication.

In fact, I have never blamed anybody. Women blame men for having fun when they can: Peter Pan, commitment-phobes, child-men, etc.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

By the way, David, I have been following you in several blogs of the manosphere. No meant to offense, but you are a mature man. Your experience about finding a woman who is the perfect woman would not be possible if you were ten or twenty years younger.

I find laughable that you are always talking about your experience and how you have this woman who is religious, a lady in the street and a whore in the bed. I don’t know whether you are bragging but your experience is not significant in today’s world.

Furhtermore, your socon-like pedestalization of women only reveals your age. You are always willing to excuse women and rationalize their bad behaviour.

You have me partly right, but not completely. Things were certainly easier in my time, but they were never that easy. My wife is NOT the perfect woman. She is, in fact, bloody hard work. (You should have seen her an hour ago!) I read and comment on these blogs partly to get useful tips for dealing with her. She is not a whore in bed. I have to use some real skills to get her to come across (put out, as Americans say). I like her to suck my cock for foreplay, but I have only been able to get her to do this with a bit of real effort. I have been accused of bragging, and yes I do this. But, as for pedestalising – are you sure? I am actually notorious for having a rather low opinion of women. In fact, one called me an “abusive jerk” on the Internet a couple of days ago.

Marcos, aka Frost McCormick, is a pure genius. Although I frankly don’t buy into the institution of marriage and the headaches that men derive when they finally figure out saying “i do” means “im done” and the vaginamony kicks in, he hits a home run with this theory. To back it up, Marcos is clearly expressing the simple truth, “a woman, unless it’s your mother or sister, will never love you for who you are, but rather what you can give them.” If you don’t believe it, go to any dating website and 90% of all female postings have a generic ‘checklist’ of the qualities they are seeking in a mate, when in fact few of them bring anything of essence to the table except a vagina. I would have much more respect for these leaches if they simple asked what my W2 averaged the past 3 years.

As it’s been already posted more eloquently than I would write by many women here: It’s bad behavior. Beneath the dignity of anyone who calls themselves ‘a good man’. This is Tom Leykis stuff. Personally I want to educate men, and enlighten women, not call for petty acts of revenge and retribution between the sexes.

@ J
“I think Marcos’s behavior is very anti-social and certainly contributes in small part to further fracturing of male/female relationships. However, this is how humans behave and is part of a broken system correcting itself.

Except that behavior of that sort really does predate feminism. It’s just good, old fashion caddishness.”

And good ole fashioned sluts for falling for the caddishness. If they were chaste and pure, wouldnt fall for it.

Mostly true, Tony. But sluts don’t “fall” for cads. Sluts pursue sexy alpha douchebag cads for the sex. It’s a myth that women are in the hookup scene to find boyfriends. A woman who is hard and heavy into casual sex isn’t trying to find a boyfriend. She’s trying to get sex with the hottest, sexiest men she can find.

A woman who wants to simply GET married and not BE/STAY married to a guy,
is no less evil than the guy who does what it takes to GET sex from a woman who STRUNG ALONG other guys previously.
… should a man feel happy that he is her FINAL choice?
… should a woman feel happy that the only man she wants, doesn’t want her for the long-term?
Either way, choosing to accept the interaction … is their own responsibility, and so are the consequences.
Gynonormativity and irresponsibility for personal decisions is so passe.

There is little difference between single mothers and women who’ve never had kids. Most are the same, want basically the same things in life, with all the same laws, psychology and sexual drives at their disposal to manipulate men into being sperm donors, money donors, responsibility donors, work donors, emotional crutch donors, and every other kind of donor there is. Men are portrayed as and encouraged to be the “stronger” sex in our culture. Women are portrayed as the “weaker” sex. Only younger, prettier women are idealized. Marriage is nothing other than a legal contract in reality, I don’t care how much religious and self delusional fantasy bullshit you assign to it. As a result, women in our culture use men, sex, psychology and the law to their advantage (even to the extent of using their own offspring as hostages) to acquire what they want. Most claim they want “security”, a “responsible husband”, etc. These claims are a cover up for what they really want:

A LIFE OF LEISURE WITH AS MUCH LUXURY AS POSSIBLE AT SOMEONE ELSE’S EXPENSE
That’s why in their 20th most of them act slutty with ALPHA’s and, later on, they settle usually with a BETA man.

They are taught this by their mothers for the most part, and the charade is compulsively and constantly reinforced by the media and entertainment industry from a very early age.

If the women really wish to be equal to men, now that they earn more than the average men, they should start to date men, but this won’t exist since they don’t really love men for what they are, but for what they may GIVE! men usualy don’t mind about women income, women does!

So i believe Marcos’s behavior is the right answers to predator women who rode the carousel with alpha men and now want a beta pay for their mistakes.. go Marco, GO!

one more things to support my toughts, i used to own an old car and bike.. since i haven’t a family, i choose to buy a mercedes slk convertible. One day i met a nice woman 10 y. yourger than me.. we have good time together and also talk a lot, she also introduced marriage topic, she want to have a family and babies, but i used to warn her about my opinion, i don’t want to get married since the law are against men, but if i’ve the chance to find a very good woman, maybe i may change my mind and tie the knot..she agreed and we spend a lot of beautiful days together..hot summers flows by and we have regular amazing sex and fun together..

One day i heard about gasoline price going up, so i think about to change my car with an economic one.. just for job commuter.. but i love my convertible too much so i decided to buy a cheap car just for work, keeping my convertible in garage.

I never told about this to her..but i may say that this women seems to be the right one for me, so i made my first test to her.. i lied about the car when i went to pick her up last week, telling her that i’ve to sell the car and buy this cheap one since gasoline price..

After few days, she left me telling that she want a man who may support her and his offsprings.. (notice support HER and HIS offsprings.. ring any bells?) i LOL a lot with a sad taste.. i was right once again about women..

last month i went to my convertible to the near seaside.. and we meet, she was with friends of her and look at me with open eyes when she realized i’ve still my convertible and i let you figure out the rest..

marriage is women business, men should start to understand this.. the sooner.. the better..