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Religion

RikthePox

Posted 05 December 2006 - 12:47 PM

RikthePox

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Of course, you can't have a debate section without a discussion about religion. I would like this thread to be used as a base for people to post their thoughts/ideas on religion, and reasons of why they do/do not believe in any kind of deity/s and why. Thanks.

I'll start with the discussion I had with my uncle last night, after I considered Christianity a few weeks ago. He is a Christian and of course he was delighted to know that I had/was considering becoming a Christian. After about ten minutes of going through the commandments (seeing which ones I could obey and which ones I couldn't) I realised that what I had actually pondered was the ideal of respect/forgiving towards everyone which therefore led me to thinking of Christianity (as that is the root religion of Britain, and many other western countries). After more talking I further remembered why I had not been able to become a Christian, partly because I would not be able to adhere to the ten commandments (although my uncle explained to me that as long as you try your best to, it is okay; which I understand is probably the case), but mainly because I would not be able to accept the idea of an omnipotent being, obviously being the basis rooting in Christianity (that you believe in 'God' as you repent to him and such (If I understand correctly)). Upon asking my uncle why he decided to convert (he is twenty-one, and of course he has led a wild life full of parties, sex and alcohol, like I and many other young people do), he told me of his realisation one day that there is a spiritual hole inside every human, and even though I understood and agreed, he said that many people try to ignore it but at the end of the day they know it is true, and once it is filled (presumabley by 'God') they can feel it, and know it; 'a deep spiritual happiness' he calls it.

After discussing that with him for a good amount of time I decided to go to bed, as it was getting late, and as I like to think (what we would determine as philosophy - thought without stimulation -), and because of my (what I like to think as) Psychological understandings of humans I began to ponder over the 'hole' that my uncle talked of, and I knew exactly what he was talking about. But after thinking about why we humans have this 'hole' the thought clicked in my head of a basic human crave - to believe that there is something greater than them, to believe they are safe and being watched over and to have that 'hole' filled would take believing in something that neccessarily may not be real, but will make us feel safer and give us the satisfaction of 'knowing' there is something greater than us. So even though I decided that I would not devote myself to any religion for the time being, I also thought that maybe some people do have doubts (obviously) sometimes in their religion, but due to the emotional/psychological want to believe in a protector, they continue to believe it.

This has been not really a rant, but an explanation of my views on the psychology of religion, and thanks for reading it.

Post your thoughts on religion.

Edit: The psychological theory about a human crave to believe in something greater than them may be old, but as I do not read up on others' psychological theories I do not know. I also believe this crave comes and goes; it is always there but sometimes it is stronger than it was before (perhaps because of something that has happened). Some refer to this crave as an 'emotional crutch' when it has been fulfilled.

EDIT2 -Jan '08:Being my first logon in months, I decided to check the forums and to my absolute delight, found this topic was still going strong! I'd just like to thank all the contributors for their effort and.. keep debating! I wish I could have been more of a part of this thread.

-Rik

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'- Douglas Adams

Well let me tell you something, I don't mind what religion people have, but now things are getting too serious. Last time I was waiting for the doctor, and because we don't pay for the doctor, imagine the waiting line, I usually site 3 hours waiting for my turn. So Muslim or whatever religion he was in comes in. He signs up put his name, greets with the secretary and right away goes in. Why is he aloud to pass infront of me? Is it because of his religion, apparently yes since their was a complaint the next day in the newspaper about what happened. Now, they allowed this religion to carry these "knives" on them. These are suppose to be some kind of symbol for a religion. But they all say that the knives are not dangerous, aren't sharpened. But we never know a day were somebody will actually put a sharpened knife and use it as a weapon. Just last week I went to my cousins school and saw one of the kids with these symbolic knifes. My school doesn't even allow crosses in their class anymore because it is supposedly offending the other religions, I think they need to make rules more strict and every religion should be treated equally.

HikariKage

Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:02 PM

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QUOTE (pwner_who_pwns_noobs @ Dec 5 2006, 01:55 PM)

My school doesn't even allow crosses in their class anymore because it is supposedly offending the other religions, I think they need to make rules more strict and every religion should be treated equally.

Where would the crosses be located at? If they were put up on the wall or over the door then I agree with that choice (If they banned crosses ingeneral then that would be pretty silly), and the reason they are allowed to wear it is because of the fact that it is for them. Sticking up crosses everywhere in a school would kind of piss me off. "Im not part of the religion so why should I have to sit here with your cross over my head all day", thats probably what anyone who isnt christian thinks (including myself).

Wolf the Widowmaker

Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:04 PM

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Well... Religion is created by our brain in an attempt to explain the world and the creation of it, I've learned that in Pschycology... (I'm getting a headache just thinking of how everything could have been created from nothing)Also, it MIGHT have been a way to justify one's actions. For instance, the Crusades were created by the Christians because all Moslems are hethans.The war in Israel is because the Moslems think all the Jews are Infidels which have stolen their land.Whatever the underlying cause is (money, glory, land) it wasn't enough to convince the public that a war is the correct action.

The reason for the diversity of religions is that a person wanted to do something (e.g. having several wives or drinking wine) even if the current religion doesn't approve of it. What do one do? Create a new religion, of course. That doesn't mean that all religions are fake, some could have been inspired by a divinity or a great man with great and good thoughts.

I'll probably go to hell when I die because of this thread.. < (I am not an atheist, although one might think so.)

-Half-Life. Because zombies are better off dead.-WTF has Half-Life got to do with Physics???-You cannot kill the Free Man. (Well, you COULD kill him, but at least you couldn't zombify him. I hope.)

RikthePox

Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:09 PM

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QUOTE (Wolf the Widowmaker @ Dec 5 2006, 06:04 PM)

The reason for the diversity of religions is that a person wanted to do something (e.g. having several wives or drinking wine) even if the current religion doesn't approve of it. What do one do? Create a new religion, of course. That doesn't mean that all religions are fake, some could have been inspired by a divinity or a great man with great and good thoughts.I'll probably go to hell when I die because of this thread.. < (I am not an atheist, although one might think so.)

Yes, I'm sure many people would rather live a -what they would deem to be presumabely - 'great and valorous life' (just a random quote) and be wrong about their religion, rather than to be 'spiritually unwhole' and be correct in being an atheist (assuming that no deities did exist).

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'- Douglas Adams

thevudd

Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:16 PM

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I am pretty much an atheist for the simple reason that there is no evidence to suggest that God exists. Indeed there is also technically not any evidence to prove that he/she/it does not, but if science can enable me to type these words and have a guy in Canada read them within a fraction of a second, then it's theories about the Earth's coming to be are also good enough for me.With regards to religious people, I have nothing respect for dedication to any branch of faith - the fact that people stick at it and are at least true to themselves is really a beautiful thing, however ludicrous their point of view may seem to myself or others.

RikthePox

Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:21 PM

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"Only religion makes good people do bad things".

Extending upon that, I believe that anything a human holds so very dear to themselves will make them do something 'bad'. If a good, kind man's son is being held by a maniac I have no doubts that the father would stop at nothing to regain his son. In essence - if a human treasures something so very dearly, they will do anything to keep it or honour it - this of course includes faith.

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'- Douglas Adams

I personally do not believe in God or omnipotent beings the way it is dictated to us by a lot of religions nowadays. I do, however, believe that there are several things that science cannot explain, such as the power of the mind and very likely things as ghosts. To be completely honest I have no idea made up my mind yet as to what I believe...

What I do know is that modern religion is sort of....tainted....by it's followers. Mankind. Humans search for answers to questions they cannot explain and can find those for themselves in religions. Because some people just want to know this so badly they can become very influenceable. Combine this with the way humans act in group (Seneca) and how the thrive for power and the way people can be influenced by it, and yuo've got (put very bluntely) everything you need for a Jihad or Crusade. I think it is human nature which is starting to "corrupt" religion. Religion itself has potential to do a lot of good, just like mankind itself, but the weaknesses of man are onfortunately causing contradictory effects and behavior.

-Weiman

QUOTE (Weiman @ Apr 5 2009, 01:09 PM)

This is exactly what has been going on through the entire thread, and it's not the first time either.You come to us for advice..you just spell out what you want to get, and then ask us if it is okay, and we have to explain why it isn't. That's the world upside down.. If you would just say 'hey guys, I have an X amount of money, what should I buy?' Then this would be over in 2-3 posts, not 2-3 pages.

QUOTE (Kazzerax @ May 21 2009, 09:01 AM)

Every time someone goes against Weiman's sig I feel like they should be bludgeoned for a few minutes in the head to feel the headache I feel when I realize someone really IS that dense.

RikthePox

Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:54 PM

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QUOTE (Weiman @ Dec 5 2006, 06:30 PM)

(*cheers at this thread*)I personally do not believe in God or omnipotent beings the way it is dictated to us by a lot of religions nowadays. I do, however, believe that there are several things that science cannot explain, such as the power of the mind and very likely things as ghosts. To be completely honest I have no idea made up my mind yet as to what I believe...

What I do know is that modern religion is sort of....tainted....by it's followers. Mankind. Humans search for answers to questions they cannot explain and can find those for themselves in religions. Because some people just want to know this so badly they can become very influenceable. Combine this with the way humans act in group (Seneca) and how the thrive for power and the way people can be influenced by it, and yuo've got (put very bluntely) everything you need for a Jihad or Crusade. I think it is human nature which is starting to "corrupt" religion. Religion itself has potential to do a lot of good, just like mankind itself, but the weaknesses of man are onfortunately causing contradictory effects and behavior.

-Weiman

My thoughts exactly, although I'm pretty convinced that I will live life as an atheist, as it gives me scope to think without restrictions in my faith (just think what Einstein could have achieved if he was an atheist).

Good point about human nature too.. it's true.

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'- Douglas Adams

Im afraid Im not familiar with religion in any way hindering Einstein's scientific acheivements, though id love to be enlightened

as for religion - as time progresses, i see it more and more as an institute for harm. my personal beliefs, though athiest (not agnostic - pure athiest) in nature, are not the source of this conclusion. i look at many religious families, and i see them happy. i see the children raised with a strong sense of right and wrong. i see a wonderful sense of community between church members. at this and the even lower level of personal spiritual exploration, religion is absolutely fantastic.

but the blind faith is a real pain in the bollocks. the ability for charismatic leaders to abuse people's faith to further their own perverted power hunger is disgusting. there have been way too many deaths in history that can be attributed to savage behaivor based on differences in religious beliefs, from varying sources including but not limited to war. religion is, in my mind, the paramount cause for breeding hate all over the world. it is absolutely disgusting.

of course, what i have mentioned is based not on any fault in religious beliefs. in fact, as i pointed out in my first paragraph, faith is VERY positive. but the leadership of established churches is simply a cause for great concern, when one looks at the power they hold, and the historical negative use of said power.

Wolf the Widowmaker

Posted 05 December 2006 - 02:17 PM

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So RixthePox, your point is that atheists are better scientists because they are not bound by the laws/ethics of religion? Do you mean to imply that Einstein would have come up with something BETTER that E=mc^2? The thought of that scares me to death, what if he would have come up with a way to harness the power of fusion? Would we all have dodged the global warming by now?

-Half-Life. Because zombies are better off dead.-WTF has Half-Life got to do with Physics???-You cannot kill the Free Man. (Well, you COULD kill him, but at least you couldn't zombify him. I hope.)

DHC

Posted 05 December 2006 - 02:41 PM

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in terms of the "Theory of Everything", aka Unified Field Theory, Einstein was nowhere close. he himself scoffed at most of quantum mechanics, and he made absolutely no progress on combining magnetism with relativity. but we are totally off topic - id like to maintain posts that argue a view on religion

and at least in the grand scheme of things we have somewhat similar beliefs. religion throughout history has hindered the advancement of science, though the bulk of this was done by the Catholic Church. and it is hard to argue against the idea that they blocked said advancement in order to maintain their power - power they used to wage war and enforce their ideals on others. of course, we are both talking about the establishments of religion, and not the beliefs proper

i still like to think that faith is a beautiful thing that many people find helps further their personal growth... just so long as politics remains out of the picture

Posted 05 December 2006 - 02:47 PM

i still like to think that faith is a beautiful thing that many people find helps further their personal growth... just so long as politics remains out of the picture

okay, faith (as in going to chuch/synagogue/mosque) is a good thing in its pure form. It's so nice to see all the elderly cheering up and singing a psalm.Combined with political ambitions, luck and a strong mind, faith can be one of the worst thing ever to have existed. (I believe that racism and nazism base their views on the Bible)

-Half-Life. Because zombies are better off dead.-WTF has Half-Life got to do with Physics???-You cannot kill the Free Man. (Well, you COULD kill him, but at least you couldn't zombify him. I hope.)

Morra

Posted 05 December 2006 - 03:52 PM

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QUOTE (pwner_who_pwns_noobs @ Dec 5 2006, 12:55 PM)

Well let me tell you something, I don't mind what religion people have, but now things are getting too serious. Last time I was waiting for the doctor, and because we don't pay for the doctor, imagine the waiting line, I usually site 3 hours waiting for my turn. So Muslim or whatever religion he was in comes in. He signs up put his name, greets with the secretary and right away goes in. Why is he aloud to pass infront of me? Is it because of his religion, apparently yes since their was a complaint the next day in the newspaper about what happened. Now, they allowed this religion to carry these "knives" on them. These are suppose to be some kind of symbol for a religion. But they all say that the knives are not dangerous, aren't sharpened. But we never know a day were somebody will actually put a sharpened knife and use it as a weapon. Just last week I went to my cousins school and saw one of the kids with these symbolic knifes. My school doesn't even allow crosses in their class anymore because it is supposedly offending the other religions, I think they need to make rules more strict and every religion should be treated equally.

that is gay imo, but i belive that the religion that carrys knifes are the Sikh's, not muslems.

Vengeance

Posted 05 December 2006 - 04:09 PM

I think the quote is "God does not play dice"... he wouldn't accept chaos theory, but that didn't actually hinder him, and it didn't disprove God either - it was just his personal opinion. Anyways...

QUOTE

I believe that racism and nazism base their views on the Bible

Care to support that point of view? o.O To start off the counter argument, one of the two most important commandments in the Bible, "Love your neighbour as yourself" is backed up by a story - The Good Samaritan - which is about as far away from racism as you can get.

QUOTE

I think they need to make rules more strict and every religion should be treated equally.

QFT In UK, it's getting ridiculous. Christmas is now being entirely de-Christianised (lol at word ), with no Christian messages allowed on the special Christmas stamps, on Christmas cards or on any media. If we told Judaism that Hannukah was not allowed to be a Jewish festival, I'm sure there would be a mass outcry, but hey, it's ok to do it to Christians!

QUOTE

I am pretty much an atheist for the simple reason that there is no evidence to suggest that God exists.

Depends what sort of evidence we're talking about. Actually studying, for example, the life of Jesus, gives ample evidence that he was more than just a man. If you look for evidence of anything in science, you won't actually find it. I can't really back these up here (wouldn't want to take up the whole page ), I'd be happy to, however, if you want me to PM them to you or something. For the first, Hume, although he was an athiest, came up with a theory that nobody has been able to disprove, that we cannot rationally believe anything science teaches us... for the second point, for example, an athiest looking to disprove Christianity started to write a book, studying the life of Jesus in depth. In writing this book, he found overwhelming evidence for Christianity, and converted. He still published the book though The book is Who Moved The Stone?, by Frank Morrison.

QUOTE

Religion itself has potential to do a lot of good, just like mankind itself, but the weaknesses of man are onfortunately causing contradictory effects and behavior.

If you take the view that religion's primary purpose is to make the world better, it's always going to look like it's failing. Religion on earth is run by people, and people get it wrong. But that doesn't mean that religion is a waste of time, and in comparison to what Christianity (and other religions, I'm sure, but I can't comment on that) offers if it's true, then any suffering on earth is wiped aside in comparison. Harsh, but I believe true. Not saying suffering on earth doesn't matter, just saying it isn't really a strong argument against religion.

QUOTE

i still like to think that faith is a beautiful thing that many people find helps further their personal growth... just so long as politics remains out of the picture

Religion that sits back, and lets politicians get on with running the word is not going to make an impact. The Church of England in the UK is seen as very passive, and such doesn't have much, if any, respect from a large proportion of the general public.

Thanks for reading that, if you did. Hope we won't see any "TLDR"s in here, incidentally