^^^O.K. The obvious fact that Velkyn's comment was correct. Unless you live in some greatly progressive society in which mathematics, science, and educational progression dominate; religion is obviously far more of an influence in modern society than astrology. Astrology is a simple piece of childish mythology; a goof of momentary entertainment that people enjoy for birthdays as they brisk through the morning newspaper. Religion, on the other hand, is constantly battled against day in and day out in our governments. Just look in the news over the past few days. The case in Indiana where they were seeking to put creationism on parallel with evolution in science classrooms is just one example of how religion is persistent in its efforts. You seriously think that astrology has more of an influence than religion does? You have any statistics?

I live in a small town in Montana. Over the years we have had several people start up new age bookstores, each of which had an extensive astrology section. None of them have lasted more than a year and usually not that long. On the other hand we've had two christian bookstores for years. So at least in Montana, even though there is an astrology section in the local paper, I'm pretty sure that religion has more impact.

And as I asked in the other thread, if the astrology section in the newspaper is indicative of how important star suckers are, then how important are the comics and the sports section?

People not big on rational thought are apparently seduced by perceived cause-and-effect interpretations. We humans like to hooks things together and make nice, neat packages. I washed my car, then it rained. Obviously washing my car caused the rain. There are people that think like that. Well, they make the connection. Quite obviously, thinking isn't required. But this relates to astrology because people have, over time, concluded that the position of the stars and planets directly effects us as individuals.

One of my fondest memories is meeting an astrologer at a party who offered to read my 'charts". She guessed that I was a pisces or something, and when I told her I wasn't, she started guessing other signs. Eleven misses later, she practically screamed "You are NOT a leo!" I am also not a rabbit, though according to the chinese my birth year was the year of the rabbit. But that didn't seem to bother her. However, my late July birth date just didn't fit into her world.

Nope, astrology doesn't stand a chance. Christians are much more positive and hence more effective. "You are going to hell" is far more proactive than "You are NOT a leo!"

Let me start with a qualifier - I don't think it will be possible to adequately demonstrate this one way or the other. My initial thought when reading the comment by Velkyn was that I didn't think it was definitely correct. Thats why I didn't say I thought she was definitely incorrect and she may in fact be correct.

Sorry - two qualifiers. Whilst Velkyn cited religion I can really only discuss Christianity with any sort of confidence. I suspect though that alone won't invalidate the points I make. I'm sure you'll tell me if they do

Instead I want to challenge the statement a little, and here's why:

My experience is the opposite of PP in terms of my immediate environment. I live in Australias third largest city, Brisbane - population approx 2 million. We have one mega Christian bookstore ( which I detest but thats another story ), one smaller successful store and bugger all else. On the other hand there are several thriving new agey type stores and they are popping up more and more frequently. I guess that begs the question, are we discussing "western society" or American society? I'm assuming the former.

I don't think I have ever met anybody who doesn't know their star sign, however I frequently meet people ( mainly younger than me ) who don't know anything more than "Jesus died on a cross" when it comes to what they know of God or the bible. In Brisbane at least I know there is a whole generation of kids growing up who don't know anything at all about 'religion'. There are a reasonable amount of Christian run schools, but they're not a drop in the ocean compared to the state schools. Most state schools do have voluntary religious education classes, but on my own and others observations, they are not having a big impact.

I think the prominenece of astrology features in newspapers is relevant because I know that papers exist only to make money. If those running the newspapers thought their readers were more interested in, say,a bible verse then it would take up more column inches than the astrology section. I think I've said before somewhere on here that I have a very cyncical confidence that those with a financial stake are in a good position to guage societies interests. I know thats not a strong argument on its own, but I think it is relevant. I think the prominence of the comics, the sports, the weather, the letters to editor...just about everything compared to the 'religion' section is testament to how little importance it really has.

And whilst not 'astrology' per se, just look at the way series such as 'twilight' and other supernatural ( but not Christian or faith based ) series and books have exploded in popularity amongst kids. It's getting pretty hard to find suitable reading material for my 10 year old girl at the local library for this reason - it's all vampires etc.

It may not have as little influence as astrology but Christianity has very little impact on society - certainly thats true here

I don't think I have ever met anybody who doesn't know their star sign, however I frequently meet people ( mainly younger than me ) who don't know anything more than "Jesus died on a cross" when it comes to what they know of God or the bible. In Brisbane at least I know there is a whole generation of kids growing up who don't know anything at all about 'religion'. There are a reasonable amount of Christian run schools, but they're not a drop in the ocean compared to the state schools. Most state schools do have voluntary religious education classes, but on my own and others observations, they are not having a big impact.

How many people are unfamiliar with Christmas? How many Astrological Schools are there? Do churches get tax breaks or other economic perks? What about astrological organizations? How many Christian Prime Ministers has Australia had? How many who publicly believe that by following the astrological sciences, one can competently lead a country?

these "roots" in the modern legal systems of the European-Atlantic world.The large amount of material which has been handed down to us and whichwe encompass in the term "Roman law" forms a constituent part of the occidentalworld. It formed nations and legal systems and allowed them tobecome aware of their own identity. It provided the basis for the rationalcharacter of the systems and the legalism of the western nations. Further, eventhe very principle of settling social and economic conflicts not only by force,authority or compromise, but also by the application of general conceptualrules - which is the characteristic feature of western legal thought - becamepossible on the basis, and perhaps only on the basis, of Roman law, or whatwas thought to be Roman law. In reality, to use the fine words spoken...Koschaker, Roman law isa vinculum iuris quo totims occidms contin,tur [a bond of law by which so often theWest is held together, ,d. j.IAlthough they developed along different lines, the two great legal systems ofthe Western world have this rational character in common, I am referring, ofcourse, to a well-known dualism. On the one hand, there are the legal systemsof the European continent and of Latin America. These systems are essentiallycharacterized by the great codifications. In the first place, there are the Latincodes modeled after the Napoleonic codes. In the second place, there are theCentral-European codes of Austria, Germany and Switzerland and theirfollowers in other countries. Within the boundaries of the United States wefind a well-known example of this legal system in the Code of Louisiana. Onthe other hand, there is the common law of the Anglo-American countrieswhich, if you will allow me to speak as a continental legal historian, I regard asan historical unity. On the whole, this system is characterized by a uniquecourt system and, despite the growing importance of statute law, by thedominance of calle law based On the principle of the binding force ofprecedents.2[/quote]

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Let me start with a qualifier - I don't think it will be possible to adequately demonstrate this one way or the other. My initial thought when reading the comment by Velkyn was that I didn't think it was definitely correct. Thats why I didn't say I thought she was definitely incorrect and she may in fact be correct.

I think you hope it won’t be demonstrable one way or another. The basic question is, do people live heir lives by astrological nonsense in the papers or by religious nonsense? Christians claim that they have billions of adherents that do what God/JC says? Islam does the same. Does astrology say this anywhere? BTW, I had a friend who did astrology, and not the vague crap in the papers. Despite all of her charts, she wasn’t any more accurate.

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Instead I want to challenge the statement a little, and here's why:My experience is the opposite of PP in terms of my immediate environment. I live in Australias third largest city, Brisbane - population approx 2 million. We have one mega Christian bookstore ( which I detest but thats another story ), one smaller successful store and bugger all else. On the other hand there are several thriving new agey type stores and they are popping up more and more frequently. I guess that begs the question, are we discussing "western society" or American society? I'm assuming the former.

Again, evidence that people use astrology to run their daily lives? Numbers? People in Africa still use spells, does that mean that religion has less influence in their lives? Voodoo, and Santeria have how religions get fused in cultures.

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I don't think I have ever met anybody who doesn't know their star sign, however I frequently meet people ( mainly younger than me ) who don't know anything more than "Jesus died on a cross" when it comes to what they know of God or the bible. In Brisbane at least I know there is a whole generation of kids growing up who don't know anything at all about 'religion'. There are a reasonable amount of Christian run schools, but they're not a drop in the ocean compared to the state schools. Most state schools do have voluntary religious education classes, but on my own and others observations, they are not having a big impact.

that’s because it’s stupidly easy to know what your star sign is. Oooh, I know my birthday and I see a astrology strip (a little harder to find out the other stuff like rising signs but one can get cheap software that does that). Does that mean I plan my day and actions around it? No. My former church sent people to Australia to missionary. I found it hilarious and sad with the waste of money. Seems to be a fair number of churches in Queensland: http://www.australianchurches.net/ Can’t anyone find them? You see, I find your claims of how ignorant people are to be less than truthful. Here in the US, I can find ten pages of churches in my city’s yellow pages, in 5 point print. Plus, the religious schools, the dozen tv stations, the innumerable radio stations, etc.

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I think the prominenece of astrology features in newspapers is relevant because I know that papers exist only to make money. If those running the newspapers thought their readers were more interested in, say,a bible verse then it would take up more column inches than the astrology section. I think I've said before somewhere on here that I have a very cyncical confidence that those with a financial stake are in a good position to guage societies interests. I know thats not a strong argument on its own, but I think it is relevant. I think the prominence of the comics, the sports, the weather, the letters to editor...just about everything compared to the 'religion' section is testament to how little importance it really has.

Papers also run comics, do people run their lives by those? And as I said in the other thread, papers have pages devoted to religion at least once a week, and more than that in some (my hometown has this bible column that spreads the usual nonsence about those stories and of course ignores the less than palatable ones). So your claims that newspapers run less religion than astrology is simply wrong.

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And whilst not 'astrology' per se, just look at the way series such as 'twilight' and other supernatural ( but not Christian or faith based ) series and books have exploded in popularity amongst kids. It's getting pretty hard to find suitable reading material for my 10 year old girl at the local library for this reason - it's all vampires etc.

Hmmm, do you think Dungeons and Dragons teaches real spells too? Again, how many of them are living their lives according to badly written Mary Sue fiction by a Mormon? How many compared to the claims of Christians who insist that they are the supposed majority and things should go their way?

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It may not have as little influence as astrology but Christianity has very little impact on society - certainly thats true here

this strikes me as the usual baseless claims on how secular the world has grown, when all that the theist is really claiming is that they can’t control other people as much as they would like. I’m rather happy that religion has been pried out of life since so much of what it advocates is simply horrible.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

^^^O.K. The obvious fact that Velkyn's comment was correct. Unless you live in some greatly progressive society in which mathematics, science, and educational progression dominate; religion is obviously far more of an influence in modern society than astrology. Astrology is a simple piece of childish mythology; a goof of momentary entertainment that people enjoy for birthdays as they brisk through the morning newspaper. Religion, on the other hand, is constantly battled against day in and day out in our governments. Just look in the news over the past few days. The case in Indiana where they were seeking to put creationism on parallel with evolution in science classrooms is just one example of how religion is persistent in its efforts. You seriously think that astrology has more of an influence than religion does? You have any statistics?

Thread started magic.

Yeah, Astrology has a minimal impact on society.

Billy Graham vs. Ms. Cleo (who would win)

Astrology. Mostly it is just a form of entertainment and conversation starters and also sounds great in music. Astrology for the most part don't try to envelope society. Most Horoscope predictions are given out as a take it or leave it basis and most people when it comes down to it don't take horoscopes too seriously, even some of the people who are heavy in it. It is similar to religion as people use it to give them hope, but horoscopes are probably a lot safer because most predictions apply to more personal goals than recommendations for a whole society. Maybe one person might suffer because of making a bad decision off of a horoscope, but religion coulc do more damage as it has the power to affect the masses.

Most of Religions concept is to envelop society. Most Religions predictions and media are presented as FACTS, (Where horoscopes tend to leave it up for you to decide for your self and isn't force fed to you). Many laws are even based off of religious practices. Kids are forced religion from a very young age.

Religion is a much heavier weight.

I know in America (it could be different in other countries), most people who believe heavily in Astrology are kind of viewed as weird maybe even crazy or even untrustworthy.

A heavy religious person is usually viewed as normal, respectable, role model, and usually very trustworthy.

The day Russell Grant starts telling people who they can or cannot have relationships with is the day I'll believe that astrology has an impact on society approaching that of religion.

One of my girl friends saw a psychic who predicted she needed to break up with me. She was supposed to put my name on a piece of paper and flush it down the toilet. She didn't do it but we did eventually break up mostly because of an age gap.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.