Two Women, Different Outcomes: How U.S. Foreign Assistance Policy Harms Women

How is it possible that U.S. foreign aid, which does so much good around the world, can also prevent a woman from receiving an abortion that is legal in her own country? (spirit of america / Shutterstock.com)

Consider the stories of two Ethiopian women—Wubalem and Chaltu—who found themselves in similar situations that led to very different outcomes. Both are young, married, and seeking to create the best lives possible for themselves and their families, and both wanted to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Both Wubalem and Chaltu live only five kilometers from the nearest public health clinic. Under Ethiopian law, both have the right to safe, legal abortion. Yet, because of unnecessarily broad interpretation of U.S. government policy, one was denied this fundamental right.

Wubalem is 22 years old and lives in a rural area of southwest Ethiopia. Shortly after her recent marriage, she was raped by a close relative and further traumatized when she discovered she was pregnant. Desperate to end the pregnancy—and knowing she was legally entitled to do so because it resulted from rape—she went to the nearest public health clinic and requested an abortion.

Wubalem was shocked when health-care workers there told her that the clinic, which receives support from the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), does not provide abortions. She would need to travel over 60 kilometers to a facility that offers this legal service. In desperation, she returned home and attempted to end the pregnancy on her own, by inserting a large twig into her uterus.

Two days later, hemorrhaging and with a high fever, Wubalem was rushed to the health center. After almost dying from a severe infection, Wubalem learned that she had a ruptured uterus and will never be able to bear children—a devastating and totally preventable outcome.

Chaltu, also 22, lives in a coffee-growing region closer to the capital city of Addis Ababa. She has two children, the youngest only 10 months old. When Chaltu learned she was pregnant, she and her husband agreed that they could not have another child so soon, especially since Chaltu had a very difficult delivery less than a year ago.

Chaltu traveled with her husband to the nearest public health clinic, which does not receive USAID support, where she was able to obtain a safe, legal abortion on the grounds that another pregnancy could endanger her health. Chaltu returned home the same day after a very simple procedure and resumed caring for her children.

Wubalem and Chaltu are not real women but composites whose experiences mirror those of many Ethiopian women. Their stories provide a stark reminder of the impact of a harmful U.S. foreign-assistance policy on women’s health in developing countries. How is it possible that U.S. foreign aid, which does so much good around the world, can also prevent a woman from receiving an abortion that is legal in her own country?

The answer is overly restrictive interpretation of the Helms Amendment to the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act. In place since 1973, the Helms Amendment states that “none of the funds made available [under the Foreign Assistance Act] shall be used to pay for the performance of abortions as a method of family planning or to motivate or coerce any person to practice abortions.” Legally, this restriction does not extend to abortions performed following rape or incest or when a woman’s life is in danger, as women and girls in these situations clearly are not using abortion as a method of family planning.

But for the past 40 years, USAID and its grantees have implemented the Helms Amendment as a complete ban on abortion. This means that in Ethiopia and in many other developing countries, health-care facilities that receive U.S. government funds treat women only after they are already suffering or dying from a botched abortion, under the umbrella of sanctioned post-abortion care.

For more than two decades I worked for USAID’s international family planning assistance program, including leading the Office of Population from 1993 to 1999. I saw the significant impact of U.S. government assistance on expanding the availability and use of modern methods of contraception in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. But family planning alone will not eliminate the high levels of unwanted pregnancy and unsafe abortion. Women also need access to safe, legal abortion. This is an essential measure to reduce maternal deaths and injuries in developing countries. For the past 14 years, I have been privileged to serve as president and CEO of Ipas, an international non-governmental organization dedicated to providing comprehensive abortion care, including contraception, and to enabling women to exercise their sexual and reproductive rights.

At the International Conference on Family Planning in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, in mid-November, I chaired a session on “The Impact of Harmful Legal and Policy Requirements on U.S. International Family Planning Assistance.” The session highlighted how women in developing countries who rely on USAID-supported health-care facilities are denied access to safe, legal abortion to which they are legally entitled—as well as counseling and referral to these services—as part of comprehensive, integrated reproductive health care. Those who are most affected by this denial of services and information are young, poor, and otherwise vulnerable women.

The current restrictive interpretation of the Helms Amendment is at odds with U.S. domestic policy on abortion, whose allowance of government funding for abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life-endangerment is supported by even the most conservative members of Congress.

I call on the Obama administration to correctly implement the Helms Amendment now, by allowing the U.S. Department of State and USAID to support abortion overseas in cases of rape, incest, or to save the life of the woman.This simple act would enable millions of women like Wubalem to gain access to safe abortion care that is legal in their own countries. It would no longer deny the rights of women in other countries to make their own reproductive choices freely and safely.

Failure to act perpetuates an unconscionable imposition of U.S. abortion politics on women in developing countries who are least able to advocate for their own needs.

An ignorant catholic just told me that USAID was a Malthusian organization bent on forcing abortions and contraception on the poor in order to keep them poor…these people are so ignorant. Or just liars.

CJ99

Both is most likely, nobody with much in the way of cognitive ability would consider that such a bald face lie would be believed. Another similar lie I heard on an unrelated matter bout a year ago from a tebagger fanatic claimed “president obama founded NASA in 2008 to finance a secret muslim invasion of america”.

The stuff the extremists come up with never ceases to shock. their rabid delusions are not just bizarre but when they get the power they crave they become dangerous to everyone.

L-dan

*boggle* How, exactly, did they think abortion and contraception kept people poor? As lies go, that one doesn’t even make sense.

Quis ut Deus

I told him (he’s a catholic) that spaced births = healthier for mom and babies

I showed him a couple of articles

One said ‘limited research suggests that birth spacing is a good thing…’

And he was like aha! Limited research! That means your’ article is bullshit

So I showed him another one…

And the jackass says:

“Moreover, your post referenced USAID–the U.S. Government agency charged with implementing these Malthusian population control policies around the world. I provided you with a link to National Security Study
Memorandum 200 (10DEC74); which is the source document for USAID’s
promotion of abortion and contraception as a population control
mechanism–especially in developing countries (i.e., like Pakistan, as
you quoted). “

Quis ut Deus

Which is funny because according to this RHRC article, USAID fucks over women in developing countries who need abortion services…

L-dan

yep. I mean, there is a reason for developing countries to be wary of first world countries coming in all “control your reproduction!” given colonialism and said first world countries having a rather checkered past with regard to reproductive policies (and drug testing, and research…etc.). But using that to promote constraining access to contraception or abortion is pretty much feeding into that historical thread rather than learning from it and working to correct the impulse to tell other people what to do.

As for birth spacing, it’s common sense. Anyone with multiple kids can tell you how much harder it is having two infants vs. and infant and an older child who can manage a few of their own needs. That’s without even looking at the physical strain of pregnancy and the fact that the body needs to recover from it. There’s a reason nursing works to suppress ovulation (it’s not perfect, but it’s an effect that’s definitely there).

fiona64

Don’t tell me, let me guess: Herr Seber?

Quis ut Deus

David Scantling. One of the fundie trolls at Mother Jones magazine.

You know me. I rarely let an argument die and will stay to the bitter end. I threw in the towel with this guy because he is a JOP clone.

I couldn’t get a straight answer out of him regarding ‘how much time in prison should women serve for procuring abortions?’

He started asking me ‘under what laws?’ which is just ???? and then spewed out some bullshit about how abortion is morally and legally wrong…but ‘god’ ‘free will’ ‘tho shall not kill.’

I checked his history, which I will paste here as a character study (why not). I thin it is interesting to note that many pro-lifers, especially those who are quite religious, are narcissists. His opposition to abortion is all about HIM and his god, and he has not one whit of empathy for the women in his life.

I’m the youngest of 6 children. My mother was 45 when she became pregnant with me; and after experiencing a partial hysterectomy and two crib deaths (SIDS). Her gynecologist advised her to have an abortion due to the risks the pregnancy posed to her health; the odds of abnormalities with the child due to her advanced maternal age; and the two previous SIDS deaths–at 2 weeks and 6 months, respectively. Moreover, my father was unemployed at the time; having just retired from the Marine Corps and attending graduate school on the GI Bill. However, as Catholics, they decided to proceed; and against medical advice. Obviously, I’m glad my parents decided not to terminate the pregnancy (i.e., me) via abortion.

I’ve been married for 20 years and have 6 children. Eleven years ago–and after the birth of our 6th child–my wife experienced an onset of severe rheumatoid arthritis. At times, her arthritis pain was so bad she was unable to lift our son from his crib. Based on this–and her desire to return to work outside our home–we decided 6 children were enough for our family. Sadly, we went against the teachings of the Catholic Church and chose vasectomy instead of natural family planning to implement our decision.

I don’t know what it’s like to have an abortion. However, I’ve read numerous accounts of women who’ve had abortions. Many of their testimonies match my own experience as I drove home from the clinic after my vasectomy. I wept. It felt like someone had ripped out my heart and put it in a blender.

For the next ten years my wife and I slowly drifted apart in our marriage as our lives filled up with many things–two careers, taking care of our six children, etc.. In addition, during intercourse, I would often experience sharp pain at the point where my vas deferens were cauterized during the vasectomy. Not surprisingly–although I later found out this outcome is common–the urologist who performed the surgery assured me there were no risks of this side effect.

Fortunately for our marriage, we found our way to Retrouvaille–a Catholic program for troubled marriages. Fortunately for my soul, I was able to reverse my vasectomy decision via reconnection surgery. Of course–while my insurance company gladly paid for my sterilization–I had to pay $10,000 to have it reversed. Why? Because, from my insurance company’s perspective, pregnancies and children generate lots of expensive medical claims. My wife and I now practice natural family planning.

——————-

So, let’s not demonize pro-lifers and pretend that they don’t care if women die, ok?

Clearly, his relationship with “god’ matters more than his mom’s life and his wife’s health and life.

“The initiative would require that all health plans — not just plans
under the Affordable Care Act — be stripped of any abortion coverage, even in the cases of rape or incest. Women would have to purchase a separate rider to receive abortion coverage.”

“Because women could not purchase the coverage after they were raped, critics have referred to the rider as “rape insurance.””

————

What was that I heard about mis-characterizing pro-lifers again? They knew damn well what they were signing…

p.s. One thing that I love about RHRC is that no one puts on airs. That is what annoys me about Patheos. More than a few of the folks over there are quick to claim victim status, and tone troll their allies.

CJ99

That story you related ugh, how would anybody think it believable when they say “permanent birth control ruined my life”.

Quis ut Deus

I got the new nick from him too.

He is one of those arrogant assholes who thinks that using latin phrasing makes him look smart.

After I switched to the nick he kept making derisive comments about how it suits my ignorant self.

But, of COURSE he wouldn’t care that his wife would have to undergo a much more serious and deadly form of torture if he did NOT have the surgery performed. Natural family planning is less effective than contraception, after all, for a LOT more effort (on the WOMAN’S part, but, of course, he wouldn’t care about THAT, either). Besides that, he fails to acknowledge how much MORE expensive and invasive it would have been if his wife had had the procedure done, instead, and that’s not even discussing the costs (of money AND time) for the reversal of THAT.

Also, I knew there was a LOT of cognitive dissonance amongst antis, but I never knew it was so bad to the point that they wouldn’t recognize it, even if they slapped THEMSELVES in the face with it: Because, from my insurance company’s perspective, pregnancies and
children generate lots of expensive medical claims. My wife and I now
practice natural family planning.”

Quis ut Deus

The sick thing is this fucker thinks that the suffering that his mom and wife went through should be forced on every fertile person in the world.

Jennifer Starr

David Scantling’s ideas are frightening–this creep is a real piece of work. I would love to see what you’ve gathered about his history,because what I’m hearing from him–that women who have abortions should be incarcerated and miscarriages should be investigated too–is scaring the hell out of me.

Quis ut Deus

I didn’t go that far Jennifer, just a few days.

He is pretty fucked up, however.

And a JOP clone – loves to play with words.

Quis ut Deus

Hmm, interesting that you were able to get a straight answer out of him re is abortion murder.

I love how yippee is ignoring me and continuing to lecture you on ‘science’.

Quis ut Deus

I bet he thinks that ovulation = ‘in heat’ because some studies have demonstrated that women get a bit hornier than usual when they are ovulating.

Jennifer Starr

I’d actually be amazed if he has any experience with women, apart from the blow-up variety, that is.

Quis ut Deus

One fellow over on Rawstory rejected the science that I presented him with (he was asserting that a zygote is a tiny baby, said science was on his side) by stating that he could tell that *I* didn’t understand the science, therefore, he was under *no* obligation to refute it.

Quis ut Deus

Yippeetard wrote:

“I’m having trouble with the comment manager I use. This is the first comment of yours to show up in my stream.”

Is it possible he is lying?

Jennifer Starr

I think he’s so full of it that his eyes are brown.

Quis ut Deus

if he had science on his side, and was so well-versed in fetal development, he would have said something. yet his only argument was ‘humans were created in the image of God and are special’

Jennifer Starr

Ahh, but he’s arguing from his ‘heart’ with ‘passion’ and other assorted gobbledygook (I love that word :)), so that means he’s ‘right’ and we’re just ‘meanies’. Apparently. I love how he just dismisses the facts he doesn’t want to hear.

Ella Warnock

But I thought arguments from the heart were eeemooootional, and they’ve got all the, ahem, “science” on their side?

Quis ut Deus

Yeah ,they love to rag on us when we use an appeal to emotion argument.

Oh, that Marcus Fenix asshole made a ‘great’ comment on one of the pro-life sites last week:

”

As a person who regularly engages with pro-abortion supporters here, and elsewhere, ad hominems, insults, and backhand comments are typical (and at this point, expected). If you argue back in the same manner, it just makes both parties look like spoiled children with a filthy mouth. Asking for someone to be polite or to discuss the topic rationally gets you called a “tone troll” or “concern troll”, even if all you’re asking them to do is not act like a douche nozzle while talking.

In the end…I’ve always found that insults and other such comments are the last bastion of someone who has no argument to make, can’t refute your own argument, or just wants to be a shrill harpy for its own sake. They’re not interested in engaging you intellectually, or to try and discuss something rationally (Heirophant2 below here does provide a rather easy example of this). Somehow, a full-bodied discussion somehow is beneath them, or they just know they’re right and you’re not,
so there’s no discussion to be had. People who disagree with you and shout you down or insult you aren’t looking for common ground. They’re looking for capitulation, like an angry/whiny teenager who just wants you to leave them alone and let them do whatever they want, -because- they want to do it.

I admit…it’s tough to do things on Adam’s list here consistently.
Taking the high road, and trying to actually debate an issue rather than resort to second-grade name calling, is tougher than it sounds. I’m certainly not exempt from cursing people down, and sometimes it takes a conscious effort to not do so, especially when the other parties are all acting like spoiled children. I do, however, promise that it’s worth it. In the end, you know you can make a good argument without sinking to a more juvenile level, and watching someone come unhinged can be comical.”

———-

I love how they always assume that we are ‘unhinged’ if we curse or call them a ‘dumbass’

Oh, and the ‘whiny teenager’ thing is classic as well.

Because asserting that women are people = immature and childish.

Ella Warnock

I’m so abooove it all. Loook at how patient I am with the hoi polloi. Sigh, it’s my cross to bear to bring enlightenment to their dark hearts. It’s sooo hard to be as wonderful as I am, you have no idea . . .

Yep, narcissist.

Quis ut Deus

yeah, Bj asked Marcus to give an example where people are forced to donate organs against their will

he says ‘china’

We are like uhm…china is a shit example because it’s a DICTATORSHIP and it doesn’t BOLSTER your argument it DESTROYS it because under a dictatorship the state OWNS YOUR BODY.

And then he had this killer argument; “pregnancy is an exception to the rule ( of forced organ donation). that’s all it means. that it’s an exception. too bad you don’t like it, you whiney brat’

And I was like, uh, during slavery black people were an ‘exception’ to the rule that people should not be enslaved! They were an ‘exception’, (because they didn’t qualify as people due to being black), therefore, they could be enslaved!!

I mean, that’s his logic.

He replied with some bullshit about how slaves were a minority, not an exception.

Fucking semantic bullshit. But that’s all he has.

Ella Warnock

Well, sure. As long as the “exceptions” run in your favor, then that’s totally a valid argument! Hmmm, it sounds a bit like whatever is “convenient” for them is perfectly okey-dokey, doesn’t it?

Quis ut Deus

Yep!

He also said that my use of the slavery example was ‘pejorative’

Btw, I suspect that marcus is a black dude

It’s funny how pro-life black men think they speak for black women

I read some black feminist history, and suffice to say, black feminists do not approve of how black men treat them as livestock.

Ella Warnock

Ah, I didn’t pick up on that. You’d think he’d know better. That cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

Quis ut Deus

Well, from what I read, many black men see ‘breeding’ as a way to get back at the white man for slavery.

Same thing with orthodox jews. They view breeding more kids as the best way to dis Hitler.

But the problem is, they dehumanize women in the process. They engage in reproductive objectification of their own people.

Ella Warnock

The dehumanize children, too. Then we just get back to the whole point of the bible: basically an ownership manual for the only “real” people – men. Tells you how to handle all your property; and EVERYTHING is your property.

Quis ut Deus

Oh wow, this fuckstick thinks that slave women who aborted ARE GUILTY OF THE GENOCIDE

Ella Warnock

Really, it wasn’t white people at all, huh? That’s not a difference of opinion; that’s mental illness.

Quis ut Deus

oh man, now he’s blaming slavery on islam…

lolz

Ella Warnock

While Islam does have its own issues with slavery, they’re certainly not responsible for “American” slavery.

MotherJones isn’t posting any of my comments since yesterday. Wonder what I did to piss the mod off.

Another one who thinks book smarts = wisdom. Well, that and wholly babble knowledge.

Quis ut Deus

Yeah, which is why I avoid him and will for now on.

Arguing semantics isn’t fun. It’s a waste of time.

Ella Warnock

Arguing with mental illness isn’t fun.

Quis ut Deus

You used the term ‘narcissist’ earlier on.

I truly believe that this is the key to the most rabid of pro-lifers.

They are special snowflakes, and if they had never been born, it would have been a *tragedy*.

The thought that a mere woman could have the power of life and death over their angelic/special/unique selves is too much for their egos to bear.

Their right to live fucking OVERRIDES EVERYTHING ELSE IN THIS WORLD.

And it isn’t a surprise that these same pro-lifers also tend to espouse the ‘libertarian’ “I’ve got mine fuck yours” attitude.

Ella Warnock

And by extension for those who are “christians,” of course it’s all narcissistic. God wants ME to, god told ME to, the payoff for ME to go to heaven is to tell YOU how to live. There’s no being right for righteousness’ sake; it’s all about what THEIR final reward is. So I call bullshit on the idea that they give a good goddamn about anybody but themselves. If there weren’t anything in it for them, they’d never bother.

Quis ut Deus

yeah. that too

it’s just unsettling

I used to comment on Yahoo and I remember reading the comments on an article about Beatriz…

And there were some catholic freaks spouting off bible verses and talking about how abortion under any circumstance is murder and how beatriz deserves what she gets because she chose to have sex…

And they say, over at LJF, that we are guilty of demonizing pro-lifers.

/spit

Ella Warnock

I think many of those at LJF who think we’re too strident have never come across the really strident antis. Either than or they’re conflicted enough about abortion that they think the wingnuts might have a nugget of truth hidden inside all the crazy.

Quis ut Deus

They are also obsessed with being politically correct and are in love with their own intellect.

Some of our feminist allies love to tone troll the rest of us.

One of my first introductions to the skeptic community was over at Pharyngula.

There was a big discussion about some random subject. And someone used the term ‘drama llama’. The shit hit the fan! OH FUCK! “Drama” is a pejorative word used to insult women! Better to use the phrase ‘hostility llama’ because no one will be offended!

And, omfg, after Savita Halappanavar died, some fuckwit at FTB had the nerve to say that we should NOT refer to Savita as “Savita” because that = micro-aggression.

These people take their SJW-ism way way too far. So far that it becomes a parody.

Ella Warnock

It bothers me not that I have no idea what any of that means. ;->

Quis ut Deus

And if you have ever used the term ‘bitch’ be warned, it’s a gendered slur and you’re a misogynist if you do.

Ella Warnock

I’m a misogynist anyway because of all those “unborn women” I don’t care about, though, right?

Quis ut Deus

Yes.

Hey, question. This has been bothering me.

If you and I are having a discussion, and I am like ‘kitties are the spawn of Satan’

And you are like: ‘no dumbfuck, they aren’t, here is a paper by evolutionary biologist Mr. Kitty which proves that kitties evolved from Pseudaelurus, a prehistoric cat that lived in Eurasia and North America roughly 20 million years ago’

If my response was ‘I am not going to read the article you are citing (or pasting) because you, Ella, do not understand the science. You are just cutting and pasting stuff that is way over your head. I won’t waste my time talking about it’.

Would you say I am full of shit and just using that excuse to avoid having to discuss FACTS which undermine my position?

Because in the past week, TWO pro-lifers have used this excuse on me after I have pasted the usual reaaaaaaaaaaaamssssssssss of science that I am known to paste.

Ella Warnock

Sounds like they’re intimidated and afraid to take you on at that level. No, actually incapable. Because at the end of the day their argument is simply “but it’s a baybeeee!” That’s all they got.

Quis ut Deus

But you do agree that kitties r teh spawn of Satan, right?

I can’t make up my mind.

Either God exists, and therefore Satan, cuz Satan created kitties or…

There is no God, which is why teh kitties exist!

If you have kitties, or have ever had kitties, you’ll understand!

Ella Warnock

My kittehs possess both angelic and demonic attributes!

Ella Warnock

When they’re especially ornery I tell them that they’re being influenced by Basement Cat and need to turn their lives over to Ceiling Cat.

Jennifer Starr

it’s a bit of both with my kitties :)

Jennifer Starr

You know it’s funny how yippeekayay likes to whine about people using personal attacks on him, even when he starts the attacks himself. And he honestly does not see the hypocrisy. Just unbelievable.

Quis ut Deus

jenn, don’t be so British

pls

Quis ut Deus

Someone on that thread said that abortion isn’t healthcare because it prevents life from growing…

Hilariously, some twit on the FAtheist said that contraception isn’t health care because it prevents life from growing….

lol

EDIT: by that logic, celibacy is anti-health because it too prevents life!!

Ella Warnock

It’s just more of the same tired, old circular argument. Biology is destiny. You’ll birth because you’re a woman and that’s what you dooo. You should never have been able to opt out OR have the number of kids that was “convenient” for you. It’s exhausting, is what it is, confronting this kind of backward ignorance. How anyone could live in this modern age and pine for the primitiveness of the past, i will never know.

Oh well, I do know. They simply can’t keep up, and it scares them. Better to hold everyone back than to be the one who lags behind. “Harrison Bergeron” comes to mind.

Quis ut Deus

“My personal stance is that they shouldn’t be permitted abortion any more than victims of slavery should be permitted genocide”

Does this sound like he is saying that slave women + abortion = genocide?

Reading some of his tripe on HuffPo. He was allegedly born in Canada and moved somewhere out West–big sky country, apparently. He now hates on Canadians, Brits, and also anyone in the US who to the lives east of him. He’s apparently the son of Baptist Missionaries and they’re probably just as obnoxious as he is. Oh, and he thinks that women who die from abortions deserve it. What a creep.

Ella Warnock

His profile is private. Where on HuffPo?

Quis ut Deus

haah I Love how he kept accusing you of being British

srsly

Quis ut Deus

Oh, and he thinks that women who die from abortions deserve it.

And ever pro-lifer that we have talked to in the past week has echoed this view or some portion of it.

So no, the posters on LJF who stated that pro-lifers don’t care if women die was right on the money. No mis-characterization there.

They really DON’T care about born children, do they? After all, how do they think those children who are now growing up without a mother (where they once had one or they feel they are to blame for her death, presuming they survive, as there are no significantly positive outcomes for infants whose posthumous mothers died in childbirth) are going to feel?

“The most important thing is not whether an abortion was gruesome or even if the baby felt pain. What is important is that the baby was deprived of its life. If it was killed earlier, it was deprived of even MORE of its life than if it had been killed later. If it’s killed at 7 mos., at least the parents let it live for 7 mos. — we could look at it that way. I don’t think we should suggest that the abortion of a less-developed baby is preferable.”

———-

They seem to think they have a slam-dunk with that one. Which is just a handy way to avoid the fact that abortion really does, in most cases, simply kill a clump of cells.

Jennifer Starr

What I’m not understanding is why she calls herself Diana but the facebook page has the name Robert Walter. To each his/her own, I suppose.

Jennifer Starr

And the twitter is Diana Goodavage…stranger and stranger.

Quis ut Deus

s/h/i/t = idiot

Quis ut Deus

So dumb.

And so histrionic.

I am still in shock over how s/h/i/t said that ze was afraid to visit 10 reasons because the people are oh so scary!

Jennifer Starr

Wow–I’ve been accused of sarcasm and snark but I’ve never been ‘scary’ before…..

Ugh… she’s evil, isn’t she? I’m so sorry that you have to engage in a “debate” with QED
She’s lacks decorum and is completely depraved.
She thinks she knows everything about fetal development.
All she does is plagiarize.

Also, it’s important to note that if someone is in a persisiant
vegetive state, they would have had to have given consent ahead of time(advanced care directive) to pull the plug or appoint a surrogate or if neither is available the decision goes to next of kin. Also the person in the vegetate state is at the end of his or her life, not at the begging . The child in the womb is not dying . And if left alone would not die, but grow and be born.
Life support only lengthens someone’s life who would have otherwise died a natural death.
Abortion is not a natural death.”

and a wise crack about BJ:

“A banshee by the name of BJ Survivor
Complete crass b*^$%”

————-

I love how they accuse me of plagiarism

Because I…cut and paste from science…and then post a link at the bottom which gives credit to the person WHO WROTE IT (Except when I use the arguments from here http://fightforsense.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/manyargs/ in which case I can’t really cite is a source, and I use it when I am too f’ing lazy to type up the argument on an idiot like Jasmine)

And the stuff about end of life pulling the plug is hilarious. Yes, next of kin gets to decide! duh! And pregnant woman = next of kin!

And, don’t you love this part: “And if left alone would not die, but grow and be born.” <–if left alone, would die, because it needs a woman's body to construct itself. Furthermore, no, because a fetus is *under construction* there is no guarantee that it will be born!

Jennifer Starr

She could at least bother to spell my name correctly; illiterate twit.

Quis ut Deus

“Jenifer”, she keeps threatening to return to the article to learn me good that abortion is murder, but she hasn’t yet!

:P

Yeah, she made numerous spelling errors. “Begging’ for ‘beginning’.

Either she is dyslexic or she didn’t really study at that private school in France.

I think that I have gotten under her skin

I am

evil
depraved
lack decorum
plagiariser!!

EDIT: had to put your misspelled name in quotes:)

Jennifer Starr

Yeah and the ‘stalking’ accusation again–this girl has a wild imagination.

Quis ut Deus

Oh, I have been meaning to ask you a question.

When you were a pro-lifer, did you truly believe that abortion is murder? Did you think that women who procured abortion should go to jail? Or did you even consider that?

How about slut-shaming? Did you get off on feeling superior to the s1uts who got pregnant and had to abort?

Did you allow a rape exception? Or were you anti-choice in all cases?

I am just curious because I suspect that the people who are not extreme hard core ‘no abortion under any circumstances’ don’t truly truly believe that an embryo is a person. Especially if they offer a rape exception.

There was a great article on RHRC that I dug up last year (I think it’s an old archived article) and the author talked about how she grew up in an evangelical environment, went to pro-life summer camps, the whole 9 yards. And she said that she ‘got off’ on being pro-life because she got to s1ut-shame. She felt *superior* to all those s1uts who constantly have sex and get pregnant. And it felt wonderful to put herself on a pedestal.

She said that her mind came around when she ended up sleeping with her boyfriend in college, became pregnant, and had to get an abortion or get kicked out of school.

Jennifer Starr

No I wasn’t hard-core,I don’t think I ever actually believed that it was murder, because I did believe in exceptions. And yeah, I indulged in a fair amount of s1ut shaming–thinking that women who got pregnant and had abortions were just irresponsible women who wanted to have sex without consequences–and yeah, it did make me feel ‘superior’ at the time. I remember asking people ‘What if your mother had aborted you?’ and thinking it was such a clever question. God, I was really an idiot–I just cringe now to think about it.

“The most important thing is not whether an abortion was gruesome or
even if the baby felt pain. What is important is that the baby was
deprived of its life. If it was killed earlier, it was deprived of even
MORE of its life than if it had been killed later. If it’s killed at 7
mos., at least the parents let it live for 7 mos. — we could look at it
that way. I don’t think we should suggest that the abortion of a
less-developed baby is preferable.”

———-

They seem to think they have a slam-dunk with that one. Which is just a handy way to avoid the fact that abortion really does, in most cases, simply kill a clump of cells.

Pasted this to Jennifer also. Showing you because Disqus has a habit of hiding comments.

Arekushieru

So, she’s a misogynist AND ageist. The older a female human is the fewer rights she gets. Y’know, when I tell people they’re speciesists, as well, I mean they discriminate against both humans AND other animals.

Quis ut Deus

These people are mentally ill. Really.

Ella Warnock

Well, yeah. Eventually you get old enough to figure out you’re only worth what they SAY you’re worth. Or is it that you get old enough to figure out that you’re not even human but beast, after all?

Quis ut Deus

Yeah, I wonder if the people who think that argument is a slam-dunk would let a baby die and save the petri dish full of ivf embryos because the embryos are ‘younger’ and ‘deserve to live’

Ella Warnock

Does this mean there’s a DianaG1? Jebus, I hope there are no more models coming off the line.

Jennifer Starr

I just love how she tries to dodge inconvenient questions by saying that she ‘doesn’t answer to Inquisitors’.

Quis ut Deus

Omg she is stupid.

I might go so far as to say that she is dumber than PrincessJ

And apparently proud of it

Reminds me of myintx in some ways

Jennifer Starr

Her favorite phrases seem to be “What does that mean?” and “Look it up.” Her reasoning, if you can call it that, is all over the map. And then she’ll go back to Live Action and tell everyone how mean and evil we are. Sigh.

Jennifer Starr

And I’ve never heard the phrase ‘dad-blasted’ before. I feel the need to swear so she can lecture me about ‘dirty words’–lol.

Quis ut Deus

I am resisting the urge to repeatedly call her a dumbfuck. Also, she keeps demanding that we provide citations while only offering anecdata for her own points. And she keeps saying that she has won because I said she was anencephalic, yet she somehow thinks that refusing to answer our questions about jail time is a win!

“”You don’t have the right to life if it infringes on another person’s rights.”

Is that a joke?”

These people oppose stem cell research. But doesn’t the right to life of the disabled override the ‘bodily autonomy’ of the embryo?

Quis ut Deus

I am actually being nice to her, which is out of character for me, and she goes running to LAN, acting as if I have just raped her ears with nasty vaginas!

Jennifer Starr

Oh I know, because we’re soooo scary … :)

Quis ut Deus

She is catholic…

Quis ut Deus

scary and dangerous

do these idiots live in a fucking fantasy world or what?

they probably think we are dragons or something, and they are unicorns of god!

Ella Warnock

I’m not a dragon. I’m Fat Bastard and “Ah ET a BEHBEH!!”

Quis ut Deus

Hey, I remember reading that Medieval artists drew dragon faces and heads based on teh kitty

The small chin, upturned eyes, and demon like horns, er ears!

If you look closely a kitty and a medieval dragon painting you do see the similarity.

Quis ut Deus

I am pressuring him to answer how much jail time a rape victim should get.

You saw. I pasted it like 5 times. I will continue until he answers.

Quis ut Deus

PrincessJasmine4

Basset_Hound

•

3 minutes ago

lol… I haven’t answered them in a few days (I actually have a life) and one of them is still putting words in my mouth.
Again , her straw man is the only thing she can defeat.
She’s still going on about Marcus and he’s been on Vacay for a few days…
so rich.

—————

I really should be playing my game and not reading LAN:(

Jennifer Starr

I’m watching Season Two of Hart to Hart, because that’s what I watch, you know,being so evil and scary and stuff…..:P

Quis ut Deus

omg I loved that show when I was a kid!

I had a major crush on the guy, I forget his name, but he was cute!

Quis ut Deus

PrincessJasmine4
Basset_Hound

2 minutes ago

I saw.. :-(

Apparently the stalker thinks I’m stalking her because I unfortunately receive all the emails of the responses on that thread.
She thinks she’s taunting me… you should see..
So sad and pathetic…
I answered her once and she had to answer me twice
That’s how much of a life she has.

LOVE IT.

ah well… gotta get back to running lines with the older… he’s got the lead in the school play. :

—————

I am at a loss for words.

This is ridiculous.

Jennifer Starr

If that’s her idea of wit, it’s pretty pitiful

Quis ut Deus

I didn’t know you could subscribe to threads..

but still….

for someone who claims to be ‘above it all’ she isn’t doing a very good job, since she talks about me all the time

I had forgotten about her until Ella brought it up a few days ago.

Jennifer Starr

And the ‘you’re just jealous’ line from her is just too funny. I mean, really–she’s not fooling anyone with those elaborate tales. .

Jennifer Starr

Basically it’s Angelina Jolie meets the really obnoxious woman from that Queen of Versailles documentary, if she was married to Jon Bon Jovi or Bruce Springsteen (showing my age there, for someone PrincessJasmine4’s age its more likely to be the Jonas Brothers). It’s reminding me of the stories a friend of mine used to write back in High School where she met and married Jordan Knight of New Kids and they bought a palace in England, had a dozen kids and traveled the world. Just too unbelievable to be real. And that her supposed children have never damaged any furniture or antiques? These are not real children.

Quis ut Deus

I am taunting her on 10 reasons

Seems she reads it daily

As does Faye Valentine

Arekushieru

Um, yeah, they were a minority because they were forcibly removed from their homeland and brought to the US, which was PART and PARCEL of the subjugation and enslavement of black people. WTF???

Yeah, I just might have to rethink my earlier decision not to post that in response to him, that is, if everyone else is still taking their turns at him, too!

Quis ut Deus

Apparently he is on vacation. I am just going to wait and see. I bet he is not expecting to be ignored. If bj or anyone else engages him I will too. Otherwise no point. He’s an arrogant ass.

Quis ut Deus

Now he is claiming victory.

/laughing

Jennifer Starr

Home schooled debating society kid is my guess.

Ella Warnock

Word.

Quis ut Deus

I agree about the Angelina Jolie/Jon bon Jovi thing…

Btw, the rh mods deleted a bunch of our comments

ella’s original link to lan

and my updates from last night

They probably don’t like all of the linking to lan eh?

Well, I went back and edited the LAN links out of my old posts just to be on the safe side

Quis ut Deus

PrincessJasmine4
an hour ago

It’s becoming apparent that
two of the MO’s of the pro abort is the straw man and word twisting I answered a few more comments last night since I was up and had the time But I think I’ll just let those hens rule the roost over there

I love seeing them come undone and just blindly attack
It’s so entertaining
It’s pretty obvious they have nothing better to do with their lives than spend time shouting down strangers every waking moment and then back to gaming

Ah well
Time flies
Gotta drive all the kiddos to school!!

———————

I am shocked I tell you, shocked, that she doesn’t have a chauffeur to drive the kids to school!

————-

And this , about anencephaly:

I looked up anencephaly and pain. It seems the condition itself does not cause pain, so the baby is not suffering in the womb. Opinions are mixed whether these babies are even capable of feeling pain, with many experts saying they probably can’t, but that opinion is not unanimous.
This means carrying the baby to term and allowing natural death after birth is not going to cause pain. But, abortion might or might not cause the baby pain. We cannot be sure. I know if I were the mother, I would want the opportunity to hold my baby and say good-by.

————–

Uhm, an anenecphalic fetus *might* feel pain, so, therefore, the wise and empathic thing to do is cause the woman *pain* that you most definitely know she will feel, by forcing her to gestate and give birth to a baby without a brain???

Anyways, I love how they think that allowing the baby to ‘live’ if only for a few hours, is a sign of love…allow it to ‘experience’ a life, no matter how short.

What is it about no-brain-to-experience-life are they not getting?

And if they *realy* cared they should put it on life support for 30 years – if they truly believe it can ‘experience’ life and isn’t just an empty shell.

Ella Warnock

Hey, Q, Princess Jasmine is now accusing you of “stalking” her and that’s why she HAD to make her profile private. She HAD to – that’s just how damn powerful you are!

Quis ut Deus

Where is this?

I haven’t talked to her in DAYS. And I only talked to her on 10 reasons to have an abortion..

Oh, I know

I showed her the quote about how she claimed to live in a house with Louis XIV furniture, and about how her FB pic is fake, and her hubby is a supposed rock star…lol

“She’s changed her name so many times it’s hard to keep track
She probly got kicked off for sock puppetry”

LOLOLOL

“I think she got kicked off because she was a nasty bit.. Oh never mind.”

”

I havent replied to them in a few days but I plan on doing so soon

Dance Commander was actually stalking me
thats why i had to make my profile private”

————–

And this bit is priceless:

basset hound wrote: “I think I remember encountering “dance commander” here a couple of times
before Calvin kicked her sorry electronic butt to the curb and locked
the door behind him.”

Which is hilarious because I never used dance commander at LAN and only used the nick for a week.

lololol

These people are pathological liars.

Anyways, this:

“Sadly, this isn’t even the worst comment made regarding anencephalic babies.”

UHM, anencephalic babies are born without brains…they are literal sacks of skin and bone.

How is that horrible? It’s fucking scientific FACT that without a cerebral cortex you don’t have a person!! Which is why these babies aer not kept on life support for 30 years because they will NEVER develop a brain.

Ella Warnock

The notion of Calvin kicking anybody’s ass is priceless all on its own. He’s the most arrogant, whiny little child. Thinks a handful of book smarts are what passes for wisdom.

Yeah, sigh, apply a little distance and medical fact to a anencephalic baby situation and wind up playing the Debil in their passion play. Nature can be a cruel bitch; it’s nothing to build a fetish around.

Quis ut Deus

Calvin once refused to debate me after I pasted an excerpt from this article:

I did not cite my source because if I had, they would have taken one look at it and said ‘aha, he is a baby murdering stem cell scientist who stands to make bajilions killing embryos’ and dismissed it outright.

So Calvin did in fact google a portion of the article, and instead of bothering to refute the information contained therein,,,said that he was no longer going to debate me because

Apparently stalking is a favorite tactic. Another pro-life commentator jumped in. I was impressed, and wanted to follow him/her. All the person’s activity was “private”. Sigh!

Diana replies:

Sheesh!

That’s really scary.

But — I can tell how scary they are from what they write.

lolol

HeilMary1

What’s so disgusting is that he clearly intends to have no more kids with his current wife, already had undergone reliable sterilization, and then to be uber Catholic, wasted $10,000 to be pompously open to the termination of his wife’s life!

Quis ut Deus

He doesn’t believe that people have the right to kill in self-defense which is just ridiculous.

But he wouldn’t tell me how much jail time people should serve for killing in self-defense

Just some bullshit about ‘god’

lady_black

Even Catholics believe in the right to kill in self-defense. Not only is it a legal right, it’s a natural right. Nobody is going to stand there and not defend themselves. He sounds like a fool.

Quis ut Deus

He would not answer because abortion = self-defense and he didn’t want to open himself up to that argument

lady_black

IMHO abortion is self-defense, but the Catholics don’t believe it ever is in the case of abortion because the “child” has no intent to kill. I say intent is irrelevant to self-defense. Some people (and definitely a fetus) lack the mens rea to form premeditation. That doesn’t mean that if some psychotic person (who lacks the mental capacity to premeditate) is running around with a butcher knife killing people because his hallucinations are telling him to, it’s immoral to kill him in self defense. The same way with a life-endangering pregnancy. OF COURSE a fetus never intends to harm it’s mother, but that changes nothing. If the pregnancy is killing the mother you end the pregnancy, and it’s justifiable in the defense of one’s own life.

Quis ut Deus

yeah I am talking to a ‘pro life atheist’ right now who keeps making the argument that:

abortion is self defense in the case of rape because the woman didn’t CHOOSE to create a baby

abortion is NOT self-defense in the case of consensual non-procreative sex because the woman CHOSE to create a baby and her suffering is overriden by the innocent child’s right to live

and apparently, choosing to have non-procreative sex even with protection is the equivalent of purposely speeding on black ice and injuring a third party — whereby you should be legally obligated to donate your organs

Ella Warnock

Martin Luther, that sage old hero of the catholic “faith,”said, ‘if women become tired, even die, it does not matter. Let them die in childbirth. That’s what they are there for.”

And there you have it. They make no secret of it, so I prefer to take them at their word. As long as this is their limited, misogynistic view of women, then we’re at war.

And how pitifully, how insanely, they claim victim status: Oh woe we are, we can’t force all other women to toil in childbearing and rearing and wear themselves out and have nothing of their own. How oppressed we are that all other women aren’t forced to live the lives we choose for them.

lady_black

Common sense suggests that birth spacing is a good thing. This Catholic is also ignoring the main issue. Women go to these organizations because they WANT to limit and plan their pregnancies. That’s his issue. There is absolutely NO concern for the health and well-being of women in Catholic theology. The fetus is the only thing that matters, and women are disposable incubators and domestic slaves.

Quis ut Deus

It’s unbelievable how ‘Every Sperm is Sacred’ is so spot-on when it comes to fundie catholics.

Jennifer Starr

USAID regulations definitely need to be changed to support women overseas who need abortion care. (I suspect posts are being deleted for being off-topic?)

Quis ut Deus

Canadian pro-lifers have also pressured our conservative government to deny aid to countries that, heaven forbid, provide contraception and sex ed to women in third world countries!

I even think american pro-lifers were horrified at the idea that third world girls (yes, girls the ones that are sold as property at age 12) might actually be treated as *people* with *reproductive rights* under UN policy.

The reasoning is that women’s rights will automatically lead to abortion. Because keeping women barefoot and pregnant is righteous. Or something.

(and yes, perhaps off topic was part of it, I think they deleted some of our posts about kitties)

Quis ut Deus

it really is about opposing women’s rights at every turn

because they are worried about the domino effect

that as soon as women gain a right here..or a right there…they will cease to become slaves, and gain their independence

and the catholic and evangelical churches of the world cannot handle that

so they would rather a 12 year old girl is sold into marriage, raped, and die from a pregnancy that her young body can’t handle than provide the poor girl with contraception or help to change the laws so that girls are not treated like property

but religious ideology and power over women is more important than actual female lives – so they promote this ‘lie’ that they are the moral ones, and that we who oppose their policies are evil and anti-life

Quis ut Deus

WE have a new pro-lifer on the site, or maybe he’s been around before:

When I get the energy I will have to explain to him that ‘unique dna’ does not automatically = personhood, and that catholic hospitals, which receive *public funding* should not have the right to deny care based on their ‘conscience’.