How so? I'll admit the "manipulating the people" bit may have been a bit overkill._________________There's always a bigger fish - Qui Gon Jinn.

You shall learn that history is an intricate weaving of many events. No one thing can be understood without the proper context.

The best techniques are passed on by the survivors.

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:54 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

You're describing the Jedi as being corrupt. I don't think that there was corruption. They became complacent and it resulted in them becoming ensnared in the scenario that Sidious (or Plagueis?) meticulously crafted to destroy them.

They became entangled with the government bureaucracy of the Republic, because their duty to serve the people overlapped with the government's, but in doing so the associated bureaucratic red tape and political and legal considerations came into play, so that their ability to help people was only so much as the government would allow them. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi are beyond reproach and their credibility is trusted as witnesses, yet the Jedi themselves couldn't take action against the Trade Federation's illegal invasion of Naboo because the Republic itself wouldn't.

Their extremely strict dogma, designed to prevent more Dark Jedi or Sith, also resulted in their numbers slowly dwindling over the millennium from the end of the New Sith Wars and the start of the films. It also ensured that, while few Jedi ever left the order, and fewer of them still turned to the dark side, that the Jedi themselves were completely isolated in their ivory tower away from the people they were supposed to be helping. Consequently they lacked any sense of empathy for the non-Jedi, which dulled their compassion.

For the specifics of the Clone Wars, the Jedi had no choice but to lead the clones. It's either that or end their role as guardians of the Republic, which is what they'd come to define themselves by and how they measured their self-worth. They weren't going to let a 25,000 year tradition end, especially if doing so doomed the Republic.

They were further screwed that Sidious was playing both sides against the middle -- them.

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:20 am

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Lord Ree'diusMaster

Joined: 11 Apr 2011Posts: 700Location: The Unknown Regions

I totally agree with Crash on this. The jedi where played but where never corrupt or evil. Now I'm not saying that every single Jedi was an angel all of the times or that there was never a Jedi with a clouded judgement, but they strived for good, did not mean to rule and tried to guide the galaxy toward the light and fought for noble causes. They had no secret agenda that I ever heard of.
I myself understand their view toward Sith too. I mean in every instance a Sith Lord is left to thrive millions are bound to suffer. How could the Jedi just stand by and let that happen?

But come on, seriously, to you guys who don't see any difference between the Jedi or Sith or think that it are just two different philosophies.... I just can't truly believe you don't see the difference (I mean the Jedi and Sith ARE intended to be each others opposites) and if you do than theirs really no point discussing this any further. But I bet you wouldn't want to live under the rule of a Sith Lord either._________________"Strong you are with the dark side, young one. But not that strong.
Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Along the lines of Jedi morality, why did the Jedi stop being the Chancellors of the Republic? Have they ever mentioned that? It seems odd that the Jedi would step away from such a position. Their abilities, training, and philosophy should make them ideal leaders._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

To the best of my knowledge, it's not been mentioned in universe. But I think it makes perfect sense that they stopped being so. It's quite in keeping with their personas as ones who don't crave power, or even think they should have power. Again, to the best of my knowledge, they were only in such a high position of governance during the New Sith Wars, yes? The reasoning for that was because it was a time of great stress, and 'normal' politicians were lacking in skill. Once the war ended, they relinquished their power, and with no new galaxy threatening war they had no reason to take such authoritative role again._________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:30 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

It's in chapter 8 of Rule of Two.

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:45 pm

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7613Location: Sailing into the unknown

Politics is no place for a Jedi.

Socrates wrote:

Be sure, gentlemen of the jury, that if I had long ago attempted to take part in politics, I should have died long ago, and benefited neither you nor myself. Do not be angry with me for speaking the truth; no man will survive who genuinely opposes you or any crowd and prevents the occurence of many unjust and illegal happenings in the city. A man who really fights for justice must lead a private, not a public, life if he is to survive for even a short time.

_________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:57 pm

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DannikJerrikoEUC Staff

Joined: 09 Nov 2011Posts: 1236Location: Nirn

The Jedi could have done better as a secret society, but that might have made the whole Star Wars story a bit generic. Or would it? We've had quite a few secret society stories before (in the history of all literature, not in Star Wars publishing).

I'm sure I read about a Force-sensitive secret society before. Can anyone help me with that?

Quick story idea; secret society or Force sensitive do-gooders, strongly opposed to the Jedi and all they stand for. Oh, and they go about asking for recruits instead of kidnapping.

On that note; what do you guys think about the Jedi child-recruiting tie-breaking policy?_________________There's always a bigger fish - Qui Gon Jinn.

You shall learn that history is an intricate weaving of many events. No one thing can be understood without the proper context.

The best techniques are passed on by the survivors.

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:26 pm

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CerrineaMaster

Joined: 09 Jun 2009Posts: 1491

I'm so tired of this Jedi kidnapping younglings thing. It never happened (except for C'Baoth on Outbound Flight). There was a Republic law that the Jedi could legally take younglings from parents and guess what. The Jedi hated that law and never used it. If they couldn't persuade the parents (without resorting to Force persuasion), they didn't not remove children without the parents' consent._________________Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:56 pm

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Lord Ree'diusMaster

Joined: 11 Apr 2011Posts: 700Location: The Unknown Regions

Darth Skuldren wrote:

Along the lines of Jedi morality, why did the Jedi stop being the Chancellors of the Republic? Have they ever mentioned that? It seems odd that the Jedi would step away from such a position. Their abilities, training, and philosophy should make them ideal leaders.

After the Brotherhood of Darkness was defeated they again resumed their roles as gaurdians of peace and the Republuc. It's in the Rule of Two._________________"Strong you are with the dark side, young one. But not that strong.
Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Quick thought; why is it that the Sith essence transfer is dark side and the Jedi Force-ghosting is fine? With ghosting, they achieve true immortality, which is one of the main reasons the Sith are cited as being evil._________________There's always a bigger fish - Qui Gon Jinn.

You shall learn that history is an intricate weaving of many events. No one thing can be understood without the proper context.

The best techniques are passed on by the survivors.

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:29 am

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Salaris VornModerator

Joined: 02 Feb 2008Posts: 2335Location: New York, USA

DannikJerriko wrote:

Quick thought; why is it that the Sith essence transfer is dark side and the Jedi Force-ghosting is fine? With ghosting, they achieve true immortality, which is one of the main reasons the Sith are cited as being evil.

I've gotten the sense that in some cases at least Sith ghosting can be more of a punishment as they are robbed of their physical form required to act/use their power. At least in KOTOR Sith ghosts seemed trapped in their form, unable to become one with the Force and unable to use their power to fully act in the world of the living (it strikes me almost like Jacob Marely form A Christmas Carol where, as punishment, he is forced to continue living on the mortal plane but is robbed of his ability to affect the world for good or ill).

Jedi ghosting is primarily a means to lend advice to those still living, the fact that they can no longer truly interact with the living as they once had doesn't trouble them._________________

Quick thought; why is it that the Sith essence transfer is dark side and the Jedi Force-ghosting is fine? With ghosting, they achieve true immortality, which is one of the main reasons the Sith are cited as being evil.

I consider essence transfer to be dark sided because it involves the act of killing the essence of the original being (or 'previous tenant' as some Sith may call them), rather violently (though that's depending on how it's done), and taking over that body. With a Jedi Force ghost there's no such violence or demise or attack on another._________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.