durianrider wrote:I know a cyclist that eats up to 70 bananas a day. He is so skinny when the road goes up, he goes backwards.

If you are a vegan then you MUST take a protein supplement to avoid death by protein deficiency after 6 weeks. If you eat animal products then you won't need a protein supplement as plants don't contain protein. There was rumor on Strava some vegan cycled 6190km during the 2013 base mile blast. He did but died from protein deficiency in his sleep after failing to make it to the kitchen to take his whey protein shake. Whey protein is vegan right?

I think the problem Harley is that what you said appears to have little relevance to the topic. It would be better if you just provided some input that was not extolling your virtues and the points you make are made in a clear and concise manner.

boss wrote:I'm riding about 250-400km a week, depending on how much time I have. Almost all of that is in the hills. So it's a fairly tough 250km at a minimum each week. I usually include at least one but sometimes two or three really tough climbs - 2-3km climbs at 10%+ avg (peaks at 20-30%). So there's some lower cadence grinding out of the saddle in there.

I've been suggested to take a protein supplement to aid recovery. Call me naive, but I figured that my dietary intake would sort out protein... I usually have at least 600ml of milk a day (shortly after a ride) and for dinner I usually have a dish with meat. Aside from that, I eat a lot of fruit and carb heavy stuff (breads, etc).

So not a massive meat eater, but I have a fairly balanced diet and try pretty hard to replace the calories I expend (although - with 4000+ cal rides - sometimes it's impossible).

Are protein supplements a bit of a placebo (for cycling at least) or would I benefit from a protein hit?

Who suggested you need more protein? ... not sure what you weight is like, but looking at what you do via strava I expect you are fairly lean?. Seems to me you are doing fairly good with what you are doing already!.Durians post... I actually enjoy them as well, sometimes they are a bit in your face, but then the helmet, steel and brooks lovers can harp on a bit too at times . The guy can obviously ride a bike harder than 99% of the people on this forum ... yeah we get told about it quite a lot ( in the 3rd person quite often ) ... January's strava blip is pretty huge, I am not interested in how Harvey makes his money, but if it is related to how many people visit his various sites, then riding long for a month seems like a pretty good way to get people interested in your message. Meh... it's a pretty anonymous internet forum... I would write more but I fancy a banana smoothie more

I've lost about forty kilos due to cycling. During this time I have regularly had a protein shake after my rides (as long as the ride was long enough to warrant it). After reading this thread, I thought I would test whether the protein shake was beneficial or not. So I stopped the protein shakes for two months. I felt like cr@p. so I started drinking the shakes again and feel great. I have a great balanced diet and am still losing weight.

I'm not trying to get into any arguments. I am simply stating my personal experience. Protein bars were really bad for me and increased my cholesterol. So I stopped eating them and my cholesterol dropped (blood tests and GP stated this). I was not having the shakes as well as the bars, I went from bars to shakes.

darkelf921 wrote:I'm not trying to get into any arguments. I am simply stating my personal experience. Protein bars were really bad for me and increased my cholesterol. So I stopped eating them and my cholesterol dropped (blood tests and GP stated this). I was not having the shakes as well as the bars, I went from bars to shakes.

My point is, different things work for different people.

It's not a matter of all protein bars being worse than all shakes, even just for you. If you didn't retain energy balance on either, you would get a different result. If you had a different mix of saturated fat, carbs, or unsaturated fat, in the bars and shakes, you would vary blood cholesterol.

echoing winston's sentiments here: blood lipid panels are highly subjective tests that take considerable time periods of consistency to stabilise. if you were losing weight in the months prior to the test, changing your diet (particularly sugar and fat %ages and ratios of various types of fats), suffering from stress, taking any medications, etc, then you don't have sufficient information to single out the protein bars as the sole cause of your changed cholesterol numbers though they could certainly have been a contributor as they may have assisted weight loss and most certainly changed your macros.

to the OP: the need for protein supplementation and general day to day amount required to optimise recovery is an extremely individual thing relating particularly to genetics and diet. Personally, i can maintain lean body mass and recover optimally with a very low protein intake (<1g/kg LBM). Harley survives quite readily on even less. At the same time, there are people like DarkElf above who after some simple self experimentation have discovered that protein supplementation is critically important for them. best advice - try it, see if it makes a tangible difference and report back. 1kg of WPI will cost you <$40 delivered and that will last you a few months so it's a fairly cheap experiment to do. look forward to hearing the results.

Chiming in here with with my personal experience. After picking up the intensity last summer season with road and track training/racing, I found that my legs were just in a constant throbbing pain almost the whole week. After some browsing I settled on trying some protein powder. Hey presto I found that the pain subsided. I am using ON's protein isolate and I take about 20g after each workout these days. Yes it works for me and I can back up with hard efforts as some others have pointed out. I've been taking the powder fairly consistently since the last summer season.

So from this little experiment, I know I don't get enough protein in by diet alone and I'm sure there is more to this puzzle. I know I need to look into this further, but atm, the protein powder works for me and is the easy answer. When I have more time to apply to this, I may look into it. The factor of the extra little additives in whey powders does concern me somewhat and is the driving force behind my thought process to find something else. I may look into the vegan supplements soon as my supply of powder is going low and I need something else sooner rather than later.

whey proteins are just milk proteins. once you start buying specially formulated blends, flavours, sweetened mixes, etc you're starting to ingest some more interesting chemicals that you may or may not want. most of the good vendors will sell you unflavoured protein which is exactly that - just the protein, no flavours, colours, sweeteners, etc. to that, you can add other, more natural foods like fruits to make the flavours you want.

iaintas wrote:I have Veins on my abs and i ate chicken last night and i didnt cycling 6500km yesterday.

Lets move on Durian, its becoming a bit dull mate. no one cares about your diet, people dont want crackpot posts that have no relevence to anything and cartoon pictures that add nothing to discussions and gloating about how your such an amazing athlete.

Maybe if you used your excess energy to undertake your own meta-analysis study on diet and nutrition and then have it peer reviewed and published, then maybe people might take you seriously, or even better why not start a longitudinal study using your "subjects", undertaking statistical analysis on the results (dont forget the control subjects). But for now your just some annoying parrot chirping in the background of every health thread on the internet.

Id day his results speak for themselves.He doesn't need a peer reviewed document to show what he is doing doesn't work for him. The results are visible for all to see.There have been plenty of phd's written on false information just because is"peer"reviewed doesn't make it correct. No I'm not a vegan or a vego but do enjoy his posts.

Sent from my MB526 using Tapatalk 2

OK then. Peer reviewed and published for all to see so that others can validate or invalidate. Which is where falsifying data eventually gets found out.

Yeah - I enjoyed his posts for a short while but eventually they become tedious. Regardless of beign amused or otherwise, some people newly exposed to him may take him seriously.

DR may not be a troll, but the effect is the same. Worse as most people can recognise a troll right off. With DR the standard troll-advice of ignoring him can mean that intelligent people may be misinformed. Is there any chance that the mods can simply flick him away like we do with trolls? (And then he can use that action to further his claims of intellectual superiority - I can live with that.)

N=1, the more protein I have in my diet, the more likely I am to lose weight. But that matches the expectations of the scientific studies anyway.

Within the minimum .8g/lean kg per day and the upper recommended 1.4g/lean kg per day, that put me at between 300 and 560 gm of kanga/turkey a day. The upper number assumes "athlete", and 10+ hours a week of cycling is sufficient to meet that definition according to the AIS.

ColinOldnCranky wrote:OK then. Peer reviewed and published for all to see so that others can validate or invalidate. Which is where falsifying data eventually gets found out.

Yeah - I enjoyed his posts for a short while but eventually they become tedious. Regardless of beign amused or otherwise, some people newly exposed to him may take him seriously.

DR may not be a troll, but the effect is the same. Worse as most people can recognise a troll right off. With DR the standard troll-advice of ignoring him can mean that intelligent people may be misinformed. Is there any chance that the mods can simply flick him away like we do with trolls? (And then he can use that action to further his claims of intellectual superiority - I can live with that.)

+1 Well said ColinAs far as cycling performance validating outlandish dietary advice, there are plenty of better cyclists who don't survive on kilograms of bananas.

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Yeah - I enjoyed his posts for a short while but eventually they become tedious. Regardless of beign amused or otherwise, some people newly exposed to him may take him seriously.

DR may not be a troll, but the effect is the same. Worse as most people can recognise a troll right off. With DR the standard troll-advice of ignoring him can mean that intelligent people may be misinformed. Is there any chance that the mods can simply flick him away like we do with trolls? (And then he can use that action to further his claims of intellectual superiority - I can live with that.)

I disagree that DR is not a troll. He is a self confessed professional troll. That is his business model. He even has a video on youtube where he trolls in real life. The problem with arguing with a troll is that a passerby might not be able to tell the difference between the troll and the genuine forum member. But I agree if you ignore him then a newer user might take his outlandish claims seriously. The health outcomes of people following his advice can be pretty bad. I do not know what can be done except if he makes ridiculous claims then people should continue to dispute them I guess. Even though attention is exactly what he wants. I guess there is no correct response to a "character" like that.

I guess if we were having this conversation in real life back in the medieval times a few of you would be shouting 'OFF WITH HIS HEAD!'.

Reality is forums are places where people come to share their personal experiences. I make my personal identity known. Almost everyone here knows how to contact me in person, knows what I look like, where I train each day etc. My personal definition of a troll is some person behind an anonymous ID that sits behind a keyboard pretending they are something they aint in real life.

Its my sincere intention that anyone reading my posts gets a paradigm shift in basic health and fitness information and starts to question what is encouraged by the mainstream system that just wants to make more money off you selling you junk you don't even really need.

First of all, whey is a by-product of the cheese industry. After cheese is made, the clear liquid whey is left. At one time this material had little commercial value and was usually provided to hog farmers for the cost of removing the material from the cheese factories. Whey contains a small amount of protein aptly named whey protein. This protein is extracted from the whey by various 'cross flow extraction and micro-filtration technologies'. The producers make much of this 'advanced technology' diverting attention away from the real properties of whey. Whey is composed of bovine blood proteins, serum albumen, lactalbumen, dead white blood cells and hormonal residues including estrogen, progesterone and IGF-1 (insulin growth factor 1). Employ some struggling 4th year med students to put out some 'studies' that make it look good. Pretend the IGF-1 content and casein is NOT cancer promoting. Ignore the science that indicates whey protein is connected with a host of serious health issues.

Here is some more about whey for those serious about health and natural performance.

The body's reaction to a foreign protein is to destroy that antigen-like invader with an antibody. For those individuals unfortunate enough to possess a genetic pre-disposition to such an event, the antibody then turns upon one's own cells. That is what is known as an auto-immune response.

In the case of diabetes and multiple sclerosis (MS), the body's response to whey proteins is to attack the outer membrane protecting nerve cells, or the myelin sheath.

It has long been established that early exposure to bovine proteins is a trigger for insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. Researchers have made that same milk consumption connection to MS. The July 30, 1992 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine first reported the diabetes autoimmune response milk connection:

"Patients with insulin dependent diabetes mellitus produce antibodies to cow milk proteins that participate in the development of islet dysfunction...Taken as a whole, our findings suggest that an active response in patients with IDDM (to the bovine protein) is a feature of the auto-immune response."On December 14, 1996, The Lancet revealed:

"Cow's milk proteins are unique in one respect: in industrialized countries they are the first foreign proteins entering the infant gut, since most formulations for babies are cow milk-based. The first pilot stage of our IDD prevention study found that oral exposure to dairy milk proteins in infancy resulted in both cellular and immune response...this suggests the possible importance of the gut immune system to the pathogenesis of IDD."The Multiple Sclerosis Milk Connection

The April 1, 2001 issue of the Journal of Immunology contained a study linking MS to milk consumption.

Michael Dosch, M.D., and his team of researchers determined that multiple sclerosis and type I (juvenile) diabetes mellitus are far more closely linked than previously thought. Dosch attributes exposure to cow milk protein as a risk factor in the development of both diseases for people who are genetically susceptible. According to Dosch:

"We found that immunologically, type I diabetes and multiple sclerosis are almost the same - in a test tube you can barely tell the two diseases apart. We found that the autoimmunity was not specific to the organ system affected by the disease. Previously it was thought that in MS autoimmunity would develop in the central nervous system, and in diabetes it would only be found in the pancreas. We found that both tissues are targeted in each disease."Multiple Sclerosis

Multiple sclerosis affects approximately 300,000 Americans. Two-thirds of those diagnosed with MS are women. Most researchers believe that MS is an autoimmune disease. Auto means "self."

Who Does Not Get MS?

It is interesting to note that Eskimos and Bantus (50 million individuals living in East Africa ) rarely get MS. Neither do those native North and South American Indian or Asian populations who consume no cow's milk or dairy products.

Who Gets MS ?

The British medical journal Lancet reported that dairy-rich diets filled have been closely linked to the development of MS. (The Lancet 1974;2:1061)

A study published in the journal Neuro-epidemiology revealed an association between eating dairy foods and an increased prevalence of MS. (Neuro-epidemiology 1992;11:304Â12.)

MS researcher, Luther Lindner, M.D., a pathologist at Texas A & M University College of Medicine, wrote:

"It might be prudent to limit the intake of milk and milk products."Women are targeted by dairy industry scare tactics that offer misinformation regarding osteoporosis. Two-thirds of MS victims are women. As milk and cheese consumption increase along population lines, so too does an epidemic number of MS cases. The numbers add up. The clues add up. The science supports epidemiological studies. Got diabetes? Got MS? The milk connection has been established.

Whey Also Contains Insulin Growth Factor (IGF-1)

On January 23, 1998 researchers at the Harvard Medical School released a major study providing conclusive evidence that IGF-1 is a potent risk factor for prostate cancer. Should you be concerned? Yes, you certainly should, particularly if you drink milk produced in the United States . IGF-1 or insulin-like growth factor 1 is an important hormone that is produced in the liver and body tissues. It is a polypeptide and consists of 70 amino acids linked together. All mammals produce IGF-1 molecules very similar in structure and human and bovine IGF-1 are completely identical. IGF-1 acquired its name because it has insulin-like activity in fat (adipose) tissue and has a structure that is very similar to that of pro-insulin. The body's production of IGF-1 is regulated by the human growth hormone and peaks at puberty. IGF-1 production declines with age and is only about half the adult value at the age of 70 years. IGF-1 is a very powerful hormone that has profound effects even though its concentration in the blood serum is only about 200 ng/mL or 0.2 millionth of a gram per milliliter (1-4).

Insulin-like growth factor (IGF-I) in humans and cows are identical. Like a key fitting into a lock, this hormone is a perfect match between two species of animal and exerts powerful growth effects. IGF-I is the most powerful growth hormone in the human body. Every sip of milk, every bite of cheese, every whey protein drink contains IGF-I.

IGF-1 and Cancer

IGF-1 is known to stimulate the growth of both normal and cancerous cells(2,5). In 1990 researchers at Stanford University reported that IGF-1 promotes the growth of prostate cells(2). This was followed by the discovery that IGF-1 accelerates the growth of breast cancer cells(6-8). In 1995 researchers at the National Institutes of Health reported that IGF-1 plays a central role in the progression of many childhood cancers and in the growth of tumours in breast cancer, small cell lung cancer, melanoma, and cancers of the pancreas and prostate(9). In September 1997 an international team of researchers reported the first epidemiological evidence that high IGF-1 concentrations are closely linked to an increased risk of prostate cancer(10). Other researchers provided evidence of IGF-1's link to breast and colon cancers(10,11). The January 1998 report by the Harvard researchers confirmed the link between IGF-1 levels in the blood and the risk of prostate cancer. The effects of IGF-1 concentrations on prostate cancer risk were found to be astoundingly large - much higher than for any other known risk factor. Men having an IGF-1 level between approximately 300 and 500 ng/mL were found to have more than four times the risk of developing prostate cancer than did men with a level between 100 and 185 ng/mL. The detrimental effect of high IGF-1 levels was particularly pronounced in men over 60 years of age. In this age group men with the highest levels of IGF-1 were eight times more likely to develop prostate cancer than men with low levels. The elevated IGF-1 levels were found to be present several years before an actual diagnosis of prostate cancer was made(12). The evidence of a strong link between cancer risk and a high level of IGF-1 is now indisputable. The question is why do some people have high levels while others do not? Is it all genetically ordained or could it be that diet or some other outside factor influences IGF-1 levels? Dr. Samuel Epstein of the University of Illinois is one scientist who strongly believes so. His 1996 article in the International Journal of Health Sciences clearly warned of the danger of high levels of IGF-1 contained in milk from cows injected with synthetic bovine growth hormone (rBGH). He postulated that IGF-1 in rBGH-milk could be a potential risk factor for breast and gastrointestinal cancers(13).

Whey Protein and Bone Loss

A study comparing bone loss in the lumbar spine in perimenopausal women showed that the control group who supplemented the diet with whey protein, significant bone loss occurred. The researchers at Iowa State University concluded the regular consumption of milk proteins such as whey could increase the lifetime risk of osteoporosis. Am. J Clin. Nutr . 2000; 72:844-52

"BGH-treated milk is safe because it is indistinguishable from normal milk." Executive Branch Report on rbGH, February 9, 1994"Milk from cows given supplemental bovine somatotropin is the same as any other milk... Unfortunately, a few fringe groups are using misleading statements and blatant falsehoods as part of a running campaign to scare consumers about a perfectly safe food." Statement of C. Everett Koop on Genetically engineered milk, February 6, 1994"Five independent authorities, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), National Institutes of Health (NIH), World Health Organization (WHO), the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), and ex-Surgeon General C. Everett Koop had found rbGH-treated milk to be indistinguishable from normal milk." Monsanto (manufacturer of rbGH) Press Release, June, 1992"From 1984 to 1986, Dr. Daughaday was the recipient of a research contract from Monsanto Co., a small fraction of which was paid to Dr. Daughaday as a consulting fee. JAMA, 264 (8), 8/22/90 (Dr. Daughaday, the author of the JAMA publication was an "independent authority" referred to in Monsanto's Press Release)"Recombinant rbGH treatment produces an increase in the concentration of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) in cow's milk." FDA review of genetically engineered milk SCIENCE , 8/24/90, Vol 249"After somidobove (rbGH) injection, mean IGF-I levels in the treated milk are always higher than those found in the controls." World Health Organization Report Geneva , Switzerland . June, 1992"Levels of IGF increase in milk after cows are treated with rbGH." December, 1990 National Institutes of Health Assessment of Bovine Somatotropin"A strong positive association was observed between IGF-I levels and prostate cancer risk." Science , vol. 279. January 23, 1998"Insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-I, a mitogenic and antiapoptotic peptide, can affect the proliferation of breast epithelial cells, and is thought to have a role in breast cancer." The Lancet , vol. 351. May 9, 1998"Insulin-like growth factors (IGFs), in particular IGF-I and IGF-II, strongly stimulate the proliferation of a variety of cancer cells, including those from lung cancer. High plasma levels of IGF-I were associated with an increased risk of lung cancer. Plasma levels of IGF-I are higher...in patients with lung cancer than in control subjects." Journal of the National Cancer Institute , vol. 91, no. 2. January 20, 1999."Insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) is expressed in many tumor cell lines and has a role in both normal cell proliferation and in the growth of cancers. Cancer Gene Ther, 2000 Mar, 7:3"The insulin-like growth factor (IGF) system is widely involved in human carcinogenesis. A significant association between high circulating IGF-I concentrations and an increased risk of lung, colon, prostate and pre-menopausal breast cancer has recently been reported. Lowering plasma IGF-I may thus represent an attractive strategy to be pursued..." Int J Cancer , 2000 Aug, 87:4, 601-5"... serum IGF-I levels increased significantly in the milk drinking group.an increase of about 10% above baseline-but was unchanged in the control group." Journal of the American Dietetic Association , vol. 99, no. 10. October 1999A study published in the Nov. 2004 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition . further implicates whey protein as a factor in postprandial insulin responses, which should caution diabetics about using milk protein and whey in particular.

durianrider wrote:My personal definition of a troll is some person behind an anonymous ID that sits behind a keyboard pretending they are something they aint in real life.

Interesting. I have not seen that definition before but I can see how it would suit you. If you have a look at urban dictionary, "troll" is defined as "One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument" (1). That definition appears to precisely describe your activities in this forum. However, if you take offense to the term "troll", then from now I will label you a "bully" if you want, based on the nasty posts you make to anyone who disagrees with you.

durianrider wrote:Its my sincere intention that anyone reading my posts gets a paradigm shift in basic health and fitness information and starts to question what is encouraged by the mainstream system that just wants to make more money off you selling you junk you don't even really need.

If that is your intention, your posts don't come across that way. Referring to your post earlier in this thread which contains no useful information, I find your posts to be sarcastic and unnecessarily argumentative. You appear to have quite a consistent pattern of behavior on this forum: find a post about protein or nutrition, impose your view in a sarcastic manner, pick an argument with anyone who dares challenge you, if they don't back down - become nasty and personally attack them, if a few people jump in to argue against you, play the victim card - you are being persecuted for your "beliefs".

You also seem to bring up the "hate" word a lot. I don't "hate" you or what you have to say. I wouldn't care less what you post on here. All I want is the opportunity to respond without being abused. Also, do you have to post in every protein thread? How about letting other people have an opportunity to discuss for a change?

iaintas wrote:DR can you provide direct links for those references please! they look like interesting reading i just hope those neonates and infants are not hitting the whey protein after hard efforts on the bike

Actually I'd be more interested to see a few direct links to all the personal achievements he tells us about.

"The guy can obviously ride a bike harder than 99% of the people on this forum ..." I can't see anything so obvious. I just see a desperate wanabe spreading his own fantasy legend.

I see a lot of world beating claims, oft repeated by acolytes and an occasional lazy journalist who repeat his claims without verification. No documentation (lists of starters, published results, club websites) anywhere that you would expect to be easily found for someone who has competed so widely and so successfully against world class athletes. Sofar it is FIGJAM, hinting at an inside track with significant academics when he needs to bolster a flagging arguemnt and a lot of negative comments out of left-field about any generally accepted credible scientist, researcher or other professional with alternate views. (He's overweight, secretly wears a girdle, uses steroids on the side, etc)

So far the only exceptional performance I can attest to is his extraordinary willingness to beat his own drum. And bearing in mind the probably considerable number of people on this forum who DO achieve great things that is insulting.

Can't we just wipe this guy out. Beside anyone needing their fix of him can get their laughs from his daily youtube rants. Hears a couple of well researched and presented arguments to get started with. (Just a random set, I am sure you can find even funnier. Sorry, I mean more informative:

The Guardian interviewed Victoria Pendleton, who's lost muscle since she retired.

She says she always struggled to consume the daily amounts of protein prescribed her (shake supplements needed) and obviously like setting the alarm for early in the morning, she's not doing it anymore!

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