00:03:11 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp
00:03:35 Now I had to use three backquotes
00:03:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79103#2
00:03:50 they're probably redundant
00:04:36 At least, it's quite readable. So don't worry.
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00:05:31 Notice that in scheme, (define (g f x) (if (< x 0) 1 (f (- x 1)))) (g g 3) works, but not with your macro :-(
00:05:50 *pjb* is evil >:->
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00:07:25 what? this works?
00:07:34 In scheme, yes.
00:07:37 But f is called with 1 argument and you're passing g for f
00:07:56 Oops. I mean (f f (- x 1))
00:08:13 ah
00:08:26 p0a: Don't worry too much about it, it's because scheme is a lisp-1 and CL a lisp-2. Something could be done with define, but it would be an incomplete hack. You would have to write another macro to transform lisp-1 expressions into lisp-2.
00:09:26 The conclusion is that you have to be careful with superficial macros such as define: they may look the same as in another language, but if the fundament semantics are different, it's misleading.
00:11:00 I see why it does not work now
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00:12:54 I could modify the cars of lists that are parameter names to funcalls. Make (f f (- x 1)) to (funcall f f (- x 1))
00:13:21 Yes.
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00:14:36 You would also have to handle (let ((f (lambda ...))) (f ...)), and be careful with shadowing: (lambda (f) (f 3) #|ok|# (let ((f 42)) (f 2) #|error|#))
00:15:37 p0a: notice there is a whole R4RS scheme implementation written in CL: pseudo-scheme.
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00:16:50 heh, that is cool
00:17:48 Well, enough IRCing, I have to go
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00:17:57 ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/scheme-repository/imp/pseudo212.tar.gz
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00:21:18 What can I do with a swank server? I am currently use a tramp from emacs or use ssh+screen to edit remote file. Can I do more stuff with a swank server?
00:23:32 Well, you can use slime. It might prove helpful.
00:24:03 pjb: I have been using slime.
00:24:34 that means I have already been using a swank server?
00:25:01 I am not quite sure what the swank server is.
00:25:13 I don't think swank helps in accessing remote sources. The preconised way would be to share a nfs volume. But for remote development, tramp or ssh are probably better.
00:25:29 swank is the backend of slime. slime runs in emacs, swank in CL.
00:25:44 Yes, you've been using swank.
00:25:48 pjb: I see. thanks for the info.
00:26:43 The protocol is defined, so theorically you could use swank with another front-end than slime (something have been written for vim IIRC).
00:27:11 I see.
00:27:25 pjb: How do you run lisp program in a remote server? What I can think of is open emacs in a remote server inside screen and suspend screen to keep it running.
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00:28:00 Yes, that's what I do. There's also detachtty which is lighter than screen.
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00:28:43 pjb: uhm, do you run emacs inside a screen?
00:29:06 Or, with swank, you can just run sbcl (or whatever implemetnation) in screen, and connect to it with an emacs in your workstartion.
00:29:30 It really makes sense.
00:29:38 Yes, I also run emacs inside screen. But for server processes I don't start them from emacs.
00:30:46 In a remote server, if you don't open emacs, how do you edit running programs? Use swank and edit it from a local emacs?
00:31:10 Yes.
00:31:21 I see.
00:31:36 How can I run lisp program with a swank server?
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00:32:02 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html
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00:32:22 pjb: thanks!
00:32:44 so, yay. a happy user of cxml-rpc just wrote to me that he got 110 transactions / second with it. that is a testament to the quality of cxml's klacks parser (:
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00:37:21 Good night!
00:37:39 Good night!
00:37:46 thanks for your help, pjb.
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00:53:49 Hello all.
00:53:49 nyef, memo from p_l: Been looking through your temp/. Nice MKR pic (Hikaru's notes xD)
00:54:04 Heh.
00:54:17 p_l: Herep?
00:55:17 the "?" seems redundant :)
00:55:37 Indeed. It's more of a pronunciation guideline than anything else.
00:57:19 So, I was surprised at SBCL 1.0.27.19, as I was under the impression that that was actually undesireable functionality.
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01:24:40 Any happy PCL readers here?
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01:25:23 If so, how big a revision would it take for you to consider buying a 2nd edition, if you already have the 1st edition?
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01:27:10 Looking for a cost-effectiveness argument for revision vs. writing a new book / accepting a book proposal for another author (depending on the desired target audience for the hypothetical argument)?
01:27:36 i never bought the first edition, but i read a good part of the second online
01:27:42 er
01:27:44 i mean first
01:28:11 *dulouz* smacks self to wake up abit
01:28:23 i haven't read the first one well enough to actually have an opinion
01:29:03 I'm sorry to say that I've never managed to spare the cash to purchase it either... But then, I also get the impression that I'm not quite the target audience for it anyway.
01:29:11 but if you must know what to write about i'd say, i'd like to see more about conditions
01:29:15 nyef: Thinking a bit about seeing if Apress is interested in doing a 2nd edition. (Especially now that O'Reilly is going -- perhaps -- to be entering the Lisp book market.)
01:29:33 O'Reilly is -what-?
01:29:40 Haven't you heard?
01:29:48 nyef: seriously, don't you have a twitter account?
01:29:48 No, I tend not to pay attention.
01:30:01 After ILC they specifically started soliciticing Lisp book proposals.
01:30:05 Does this mean that "Head First Scheme" has a chance to exist?
01:30:18 I heard from nearly a half dozen people asking my advice.
01:30:39 i'd buy a copy of it if I saw it on a bookshelf at B&N, just in the hopes that they start carrying more than java/ruby/python books
01:31:01 nyef: Could be. Though I think, interestingly, the editor sees Common Lisp as the dominant Lisp dialect.
01:31:24 Most lisp book I've read, I've read online, as it makes it easier to search them later.
01:31:37 guaqua: yeah, conditions are something I might try to expand on.
01:31:39 I'd buy it and put it in B&N then use the online version!
01:31:44 lol
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01:33:02 online is great, but i do a fair amount of reading on the subway. i did print out chapter of PCL once to read on my commute.
01:33:24 and PAIP is just too heavy to lug around
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01:33:25 i have to say, as a newbie on lisp, i have no idea how much focus you should put on conditions. it's just one of the things i've had trouble getting right after reading the book
01:34:15 It does seem to be something, that despite my best efforts, people are still confused by. So if I did a new edition, I should see if I can improve it in some way.
01:34:41 but sorry, i think this wasn't the main thing you were asking of in here :)
01:35:48 guaqua: Conditions are one of those things that you can ignore for a while if you're just tooling around, but are incredibly useful as soon as you want to have stuff that can run without programmer interaction or provide a usable interface for detecting and recovering from various undesirable events and circumstances.
01:36:34 nyef: generally, when you're not just fooling around in the REPL :)
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01:37:14 *hefner* wonders if you can render into an FBO from one process and use it as a texture in another
01:38:12 Okay, I just checked my first major lisp project (nevermore), and it doesn't use define-condition, handler-bind, handler-case, or anything with the word "restart" in it.
01:38:34 I don't think i've even read the documentation on that stuff
01:38:43 on the newbie note, I'm trying to get some slime stuff setup from cvs. i've got my .emacs set up to load things in slime/contrib/ (i'm using slime-fancy as my idicator that things are working). however, when trying to add slime-tramp to my slime-setup list, i dont seem to have any of the functions defined in slime-tramp available to use. any ideas? are my expectations incorrect?
01:38:55 *hefner* seldom uses the condition system to full advantage
01:39:05 slime setup would actually be a really good section
01:39:05 conditions/etc are one of those sort of features which are a lot less relevant if you're not writing a library for unspecified someone elses to use
01:39:13 in a lisp book
01:39:18 There are five calls to error, all of which have a single parameter of "Bogus width".
01:40:02 slime setup seems like a black art, i got mine to work, but i don't know *how* I did it
01:40:38 And of the four occurances of the word "signal", three are in comments and one is in a docstring.
01:40:43 JAS415: yeah. That's something I skimped on originally because it was a bit less stable then.
01:40:44 perhaps such a book could even be included with slime. they could call it.. a manual! ;)
01:41:18 Should be able to deal with it a bit more reasonably these days.
01:43:20 You might consider including a warning about using SBCL + SLIME + cygwin emacs.
01:43:41 Or SBCL/Win32 + SLIME in general.
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01:44:37 nyef: what's the warning?
01:44:58 Anyone know how well ClozureCL works on Windows?
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01:47:48 gigamonkey: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt is an initial draft of what I have to say about the matter. I learned a decent chunk since then, so the article is badly in need of revision, though. The important bits are that using cygwin emacs means you need path translation and using SBCL/Win32 at all means you need a fixed SERVE-EVENT.
01:48:19 It'll probably all be sorted out in a year, but the situation is still bad now.
01:49:14 Maybe a couple of blurbs about different editors and useful extensions in general rather that focusing on emacs and slime (then a bit more detailed about how awesome emacs and slime and paredit are :-P ).
01:49:59 nyef: I think i ended up using windows emacs when i was on windows.
01:50:10 Mmm... I finally started using paredit in my default configuration. I still have occasional problems with M-(, but other than that it's not bothered me so far.
01:50:46 JAS415: Yeah, I'm experimenting with that as well, along with building a .emacs that supports SLIME and SBCL on both.
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01:52:03 does SBCL on windows still compile stuff on C:\ ?
01:52:19 i installed ubuntu and never looked back tbh...
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01:52:44 I have no idea, TBH... And that's more of a slime decision than an SBCL decision anyway.
01:53:19 I was pleasantly surprised when it turned out that with careful handling of pathnames I only needed to condition out three consecutive toplevel forms when not on cygwin to have everything "work".
01:53:58 hefner: rendering to FBO in other threads should work, i think you need to handle synchronization yourself though
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01:58:05 dulouz: about your problems with slime-tramp, are you using the cvs version of slime? In which OS?
01:58:20 rstandy: yes and linux
01:58:49 dulouz: could you paste your config on lisppaste?
01:58:58 my .emacs stuff?
02:00:27 dulouz: yes
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02:02:22 dulouz: btw, if you try to see the documentation for `slime-filename-translations' with C-h v slime-filename-translations
02:02:33 dulouz: Emacs will complain there isn't a var named like that?
02:03:05 dulouz pasted "slime-tramp problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79114
02:04:24 yes, i do see it
02:04:38 documentation for that variable, that is.
02:04:44 dulouz: well, then slime-tramp is loaded ;-)
02:04:49 so i guess i'm just not understanding how to then use it
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02:05:11 dulouz: ok, I'll paste you an example
02:05:13 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-pathname-translations.html was not working for me
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02:06:56 well, now i get a different error on that, so I must have changed my .emacs in the last 30 minutes in just the right way to make some progress
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02:07:40 rstandy pasted "slime-filname-translations example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79115
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02:08:59 I'll give that a whirl
02:08:59 dulouz: let me know if it works for you
02:09:31 Quick question (I hope) on my mac, sbcl guesses the architecture is x86. Should I tell it it's really x86-64, or just stick with the 32-bit build?
02:10:01 ... Wait, we still have slime-filename-translations?
02:10:03 maybe your mac is really x86 and sbcl uncovered the lie?
02:10:18 I thought that got ditched at some point?
02:10:26 S11001001: I'll just have to go tell those BASTARDS at the mac store! ;-)
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02:10:38 Seriously, I have a reason to prefer 64 bit if I can get it.
02:10:48 rpg: SBCL_ARCH=x86-64 then
02:11:13 pkhuong: thanks. I figured that was right, but wasn't sure if there was some pitfall I didn't know about.
02:11:14 nyef: why should we don't? :-)
02:12:01 I think the port is slightly more suspect still ;) I try to avoid looking at the runtime.
02:12:21 _3b: the use case I'm thinking of is a display server, where they'd be separate processes (rather than threads).
02:12:29 rstandy: I don't know, but when I tried getting my original SBCL/Win32 filename translation thing for cygwin emacs running it didn't work, and I couldn't find evidence of the existence of slime-filename-translations and so went with the slime-{from,to}-lisp-filename-function pair instead.
02:13:21 hefner: hmm, might still work, what platform?
02:13:33 linux
02:13:46 (probably varies wildly depending on drivers)
02:14:06 some day I'll catch up with all the exciting post-1998 developments in OpenGL :)
02:14:32 heh
02:14:46 *_3b* needs to get cl-opengl caught up too one of these days
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02:15:07 nyef: slime-{from,to}-lisp-filename-function use `slime-filename-translations' to setup filname translators
02:15:19 Hunh.
02:15:28 Clearly, I need to do more digging at some point.
02:15:41 Which is the preferred interface?
02:15:52 (And is there a contrib involved?)
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02:16:12 _3b: just don't burn any bridges. OpenGL ES is probably the future, not this stillborn OpenGL 3 silliness. =p
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02:16:14 nyef: I don't know, I found simpler to use directly the variable
02:16:51 (I guess ES is more like 3 than 1.1 or so anyway)
02:16:52 hefner: ES would probably look more like the gl3 stuff than like the old GL :p
02:16:54 heh
02:17:08 and the biggest problem is just figuring out a nice way to support both of them
02:17:29 with a nice minimal interface for use with gl3, but keeping the old stuff available for people who need it
02:17:50 I'm biased, I live in linuxland, where the opengl drivers on my laptop still suck and resemble something from the late 80s
02:17:51 90s.
02:18:13 meh
02:18:15 doom 3 works
02:18:18 don't care otherwise
02:18:25 pkhuong: Sorry, one more. Any reason I should get an error about missing sbcl_arch directory?
02:18:26 hefner: ok, looks like you would need to either be in 1 process, or '[both contexts] nondirect using the same server'
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02:18:33 nyef: about the contrib: yes, you should load the slime-tramp contrib
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02:18:46 _3b: lame!
02:19:09 So noted. Thank you.
02:19:23 x86-64, with a lowercase x and a hyphen?
02:19:36 hefner: (and that is assuming FBO itself doesn't add limitations)
02:19:39 (Clearly, I need to update my article on SBCL/Win32 and SLIME... and my .emacs.)
02:19:49 pkhuong: You are right and I am an idiot. Underscore :-(
02:20:01 more reasons it should have stayed amd64
02:20:14 S11001001: incf :)
02:20:18 ah, yeah I forgot i uninstalled slime and everything on my remote server... this may be a while before i actually get to really try that, rstandy.
02:20:59 dulouz: take your time ;-)
02:21:02 For some reason that underscore sticks in my head -- there must have been some linux building I did in the old day where I used the underscore.
02:21:15 I'm going to sleep, good night dear lispers
02:21:25 rpg: I think all the docs and most linuxes use x86_64.
02:21:28 later, thanks for your help
02:21:46 dulouz: you're welcome
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02:23:05 hefner: wouldn't be surprised if there is some way to work around that limitation though, since the fancy window managers probably need to do something similar
02:23:38 _3b: hmm, good point.
02:24:25 been intending to look into that sort of thing at some point, would simplify things if i could grab a running emacs frame as a texture in a full screen GL app :)
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02:49:23 kreuter: did you find a compilation from method call example yet?
02:49:38 (if that is what you wanted)
02:49:54 _3b: not one that trips the bug I'm trying to reproduce.
02:50:04 have you got a suggestion?
02:50:16 might try http://paste.lisp.org/display/46531
02:51:09 hm. interesting. thanks.
02:51:54 (trace compile :break t)?
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02:54:44 anyone know of good examples of heavy uses of CLOS?
02:55:03 mcclim?
02:55:07 i'm just curious to see if it was a "success"?
02:55:18 yes, definitely.
02:55:20 i admit i know very little about anything lisp
02:55:30 it seems as successful as any OO
02:56:01 CLOS is used pervasively in Common Lisp code, and in varying degrees.
02:56:13 not just OO. i'm wondering if the MOP was as useful as the paper purportted.
02:56:21 (lately, I routinely write programs that use generic functions but don't define any classes)
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02:56:44 yes, i'm looking for the "most meta" type of CLOS usage
02:57:40 on the meta side, look at the libraries for persistent objects, like Elephant
02:57:41 MOP probably isn't as common, since the built in stuff covers the common cases
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02:58:24 the MOP is also pretty well suited to constructing custom object systems, which some people do.
03:00:02 ah
03:00:39 there was a presentation at this year's ILC about a security-oriented object system, which bottomed out at the MOP.
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03:02:41 kreuter: a link?
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03:02:53 i'm been told ContextL could be a cool MOP usage
03:02:54 hm
03:04:19 jdv79: I don't know if the proceedings are public right now. the talk was by Howard Shrobe, titled "Towards a Secure Programming Lanuage: An Access Control System for Common Lisp"
03:04:46 thanks
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03:48:32 I am editing remote files from my local emacs with connecting to the remote swank server. I can evaluate each sexp with C-x C-e, but I cannot compile the file with C-c C-k. How can I compile a remote file?
03:48:35 weee! i think i have filename translation working for editing remote files.
03:48:51 wow, talk about coincidence. lol
03:49:13 dulouz: Are we talking about the same thing at the same time!?
03:49:20 hah, pretty close atleast :D
03:49:33 wow :D
03:50:14 let me see if compiling works for m
03:50:16 me*
03:50:23 dulouz: thanks!
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03:51:46 yep, i can
03:52:15 oh really?
03:52:21 let me paste the error message
03:53:32 the error message is this: failed to find the TRUENAME of /ssh:remote-server.com:/usr/lib/sbcl/site/package/file.lisp:
03:53:53 I use tramp
03:54:01 I do as well
03:54:05 oh really
03:54:07 strange.
03:54:18 yeah, i just got it working tonight for the first time
03:54:24 did you happen to set up remote filename translations? if i tried even editing a remote file, it would say something like "no translation found for hostname"
03:55:24 fielname translation? you mean complement?
03:57:46 someone in here earlier told me to check out C-h v slime-filename-translations
03:58:18 so i did, adding that to my .emacs when slime loads, and then it seems to have worked
03:58:42 oh really. let me try that one. thanks a lot for the info.
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04:00:51 that was after making sure slime-tramp was loaded, otherwise, that variable will be undefined
04:01:10 this one, right? http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/emacs/slime/contrib/slime-tramp.el
04:01:51 *dulouz* ponders linux as Open Office launched on that link
04:02:15 yeah, that looks about right
04:03:56 It seems like it comes with slime under the contrib dir.
04:04:59 yeah
04:05:01 it does
04:05:52 a little searching last night, i found http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070927.html which talks nicely about contrib
04:06:41 which was new to me, i had been using slime from linux packages instead of from cvs. so it was all a black box
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04:07:39 brb
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04:12:53 dulouz: Which argument did you pass for slime-filename-translations?
04:13:45 i'll show past my updated .emacs file... it might not be the *right* place to put it all, but it seems to be working.
04:14:21 dulouz: thanks for your help, I really appreciate it.
04:14:56 dulouz pasted "updated .emacs with filename translation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79119
04:16:07 so that "push (list ... " part in eval-after-load
04:16:45 dulouz: yeah, thanks a lot. let me try that one.
04:19:43 i need to sleep, good luck! i think i've told all i know on this
04:20:01 dulouz: thanks a lot for your help, I really appreciate it.
04:20:05 do you often come here?
04:20:56 tomo: my pleasure. i come here in phases, not super regular.
04:21:16 I see. I am looking forward to see you next time.
04:21:19