Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Roaf was on the all 90's team and that was before he came to KC and he got even better.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot - do you even watch Baltimore games? The DEs I named did indeed line up against Ogden during the game; I know this may shock the hell out of you, but DEs sometimes change which side they line up on during a game....crazy, eh?

Finally, i'm not even arguing for Roaf - I think Pace is the best Olineman of our generation. I have no idea why you keep trying to change the argument over to Roaf; i'm guessing you have a serious case of ADD.

I was responding to someone else on Roaf. And of course I realize that they change who they lineup against, I even made that point with Merriman, who got no sacks when lined up against Ogden. And as for Peppers, no, he never lined up against him. Period. He doesn't get moved around; that's the way they play him.
And do you ever watch Ravens games? I haven't missed one since '98. Are you some kind of avid Ravens fan? My points stand.
I think you're the one with ADD. You keep changing your argument. What ever happened to a number of Pro Bowls not being a stat?
You're just spouting off bull****. Give some evidence to back up your opinion.

Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.

Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Roaf was on the all 90's team and that was before he came to KC and he got even better.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.

:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

And of course I realize that they change who they lineup against, I even made that point with Merriman, who got no sacks when lined up against Ogden.

So if you realize DEs change where they line up, why did you argue it for so long? That makes no sense. Anyways, glad we now agree on the DEs that have given Ogden trouble over the past couple years. Moving on...

Quote:

And do you ever watch Ravens games? I haven't missed one since '98. Are you some kind of avid Ravens fan? My points stand.

I am a fan of the NFL, and I true to watch many Baltimore games because of their defense - Sunday Ticket is a wonderful product, you should look into it. And what points did you make again? All you have said during this tirade is to name DEs that have been successful against Ogden; I have done this, you agree with them, so I fail to see what "points" are left standing.

Quote:

I think you're the one with ADD. You keep changing your argument. What ever happened to a number of Pro Bowls not being a stat?
You're just spouting off bull****. Give some evidence to back up your opinion.

While the accumulation of Pro Bowl awards could loosely be considered a stat, a Pro Bowl award itself is not a quantitative stat that can be measured; rather, it is a subjective award voted on by moronic fans. It's too bad that more stats aren't collected for Olinemen, but we have to work with what is at our disposal - sacks allowed and our own eyes. And my own eyes tell me Ogden was not the best Olineman of our generation.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.

:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

Of course, but you could say that for everyone, so i'm not sure what your point is.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.

:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

Of course, but you could say that for everyone, so i'm not sure what your point is.

My point is I wouldn't throw around the number 11 pro bowls as a good justification of why he should make the HOF. Which is why I orginially asked how many times he was voted All Pro before I had the sarcastic southeast media bias comment with the rolling eyes thrown in my face.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.

:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.

:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

You could say the same thing about Michael Strahan.

Actually no. DEs for example are generally voted to the Pro Bowl primarily on their sack counts. Strahan hasn't really made Pro Bowls he doesn't deserve. Which is why he hasn't had 8 or 9 in a row. However that sometimes leads to one dimensional pass rushing only DEs making the Pro Bowl.

And of course I realize that they change who they lineup against, I even made that point with Merriman, who got no sacks when lined up against Ogden.

So if you realize DEs change where they line up, why did you argue it for so long? That makes no sense. Anyways, glad we now agree on the DEs that have given Ogden trouble over the past couple years. Moving on...

Quote:

And do you ever watch Ravens games? I haven't missed one since '98. Are you some kind of avid Ravens fan? My points stand.

I am a fan of the NFL, and I true to watch many Baltimore games because of their defense - Sunday Ticket is a wonderful product, you should look into it. And what points did you make again? All you have said during this tirade is to name DEs that have been successful against Ogden; I have done this, you agree with them, so I fail to see what "points" are left standing.

Quote:

I think you're the one with ADD. You keep changing your argument. What ever happened to a number of Pro Bowls not being a stat?
You're just spouting off bull****. Give some evidence to back up your opinion.

While the accumulation of Pro Bowl awards could loosely be considered a stat, a Pro Bowl award itself is not a quantitative stat that can be measured; rather, it is a subjective award voted on by moronic fans. It's too bad that more stats aren't collected for Olinemen, but we have to work with what is at our disposal - sacks allowed and our own eyes. And my own eyes tell me Ogden was not the best Olineman of our generation.

First off, what? I never argued that DL didn't shift where they lined up. I merely said certain guys didn't line up vs JO. That remains true of Peppers. As for Mathis, I misspoke; he rarely lined up against JO and did nothing against him when he did. And I never agreed with you on JO getting dominated by anyone on your list other than Freeny, for one game out of three, in the dome, with bum knee. In fact I never conceded that they even 'gave him trouble'.
Secondly, you gave names, that's it. I responded with facts. None of those names got a sack against Ogden this season. Go ahead, respond with facts. Your opinion only has so much weight.
Finally, Pro Bowls can be measured; 3 Pro Bowls, see theres a measurement. It's quantitative. Of course the award itself is not intrinsicly a statistic, a tackle by itself without numbers, the simple act, is not a quantitative statistic either. What's your point? And of course fans weigh in on pro bowls, but you neglect to mention that coaches and players have an equal say. Besides, who would you rather be the third party? Tennis fans. At least the fans follow the game. The system is flawed, but it works.

Ogden most certainly made Pro Bowls he didn't deserve, but right now he is the best OT of this era. Pace had a chance to pass him but I don't its gonna happen anymore. The fact that he won a Super Bowl and was on a unit that blocked for a 2,000 yard rusher are two huge things he has over most OTs.

First off, what? I never argued that DL didn't shift where they lined up. I merely said certain guys didn't line up vs JO. That remains true of Peppers. As for Mathis, I misspoke; he rarely lined up against JO and did nothing against him when he did. And I never agreed with you on JO getting dominated by anyone on your list other than Freeny, for one game out of three, in the dome, with bum knee. In fact I never conceded that they even 'gave him trouble'.

I mentioned about 5 players that gave Ogden trouble, and the only one you refuted was Peppers. Therefore, it was implied that you agreed with me on the other players. I know for an absolute fact that Mathis did indeed get a sack off of Ogden, so i'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously at this point.

Quote:

Secondly, you gave names, that's it. I responded with facts. None of those names got a sack against Ogden this season. Go ahead, respond with facts. Your opinion only has so much weight.

LOL, what "facts" did you respond with outside of Pro Bowls? You have mentioned ad nauseum about Ogden's vaunted Pro Bowl nominations, but that simply indicates how well he was regarded by the fans - it has no bearing on his actual play.

It appears that the crutch of your argument is the number of Ogden's Pro Bowl nominations, which is fairly weak on your part. Why even enter this discussion if the only tool you can use to judge a player's worth is how many times he has been to Hawaii? You could easily look up this information on wikipedia and save yourself a lot of time.

Quote:

Finally, Pro Bowls can be measured; 3 Pro Bowls, see theres a measurement. It's quantitative. Of course the award itself is not intrinsicly a statistic, a tackle by itself without numbers, the simple act, is not a quantitative statistic either. What's your point?

You really can't comprehend by now what my point? Jesus man, you are slow. My whole point, which we have gone back and forth on numerous times, is that a Pro Bowl nomination is qualitative and subjective, not quantitative. It's a popularity contest. Period. End of story. I wish you could realize this, but it's obvious by now that you're slower than the average bear.

Ogden most certainly made Pro Bowls he didn't deserve, but right now he is the best OT of this era. Pace had a chance to pass him but I don't its gonna happen anymore. The fact that he won a Super Bowl and was on a unit that blocked for a 2,000 yard rusher are two huge things he has over most OTs.

:?:

Pace has a SB ring and was the best blocker for one of the greatest offensive units of this era - The Greatest Show On Turf.

Ogden most certainly made Pro Bowls he didn't deserve, but right now he is the best OT of this era. Pace had a chance to pass him but I don't its gonna happen anymore. The fact that he won a Super Bowl and was on a unit that blocked for a 2,000 yard rusher are two huge things he has over most OTs.

:?:

Pace has a SB ring and was the best blocker for one of the greatest offensive units of this era - The Greatest Show On Turf.

I know Pace has a ring as well. But the 2,000 yard rusher is much more impressive than blocking for the greatest show on turf. Especially since it was a different year than Ogden's Super Bowl year. Pace seems to tiring out and getting banged up a bit earlier in his career than Ogden. I thought Pace would be considered the best of this era but I don't think that is the case anymore.

First off, what? I never argued that DL didn't shift where they lined up. I merely said certain guys didn't line up vs JO. That remains true of Peppers. As for Mathis, I misspoke; he rarely lined up against JO and did nothing against him when he did. And I never agreed with you on JO getting dominated by anyone on your list other than Freeny, for one game out of three, in the dome, with bum knee. In fact I never conceded that they even 'gave him trouble'.

I mentioned about 5 players that gave Ogden trouble, and the only one you refuted was Peppers. Therefore, it was implied that you agreed with me on the other players. I know for an absolute fact that Mathis did indeed get a sack off of Ogden, so i'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously at this point.

Quote:

Secondly, you gave names, that's it. I responded with facts. None of those names got a sack against Ogden this season. Go ahead, respond with facts. Your opinion only has so much weight.

LOL, what "facts" did you respond with outside of Pro Bowls? You have mentioned ad nauseum about Ogden's vaunted Pro Bowl nominations, but that simply indicates how well he was regarded by the fans - it has no bearing on his actual play.

It appears that the crutch of your argument is the number of Ogden's Pro Bowl nominations, which is fairly weak on your part. Why even enter this discussion if the only tool you can use to judge a player's worth is how many times he has been to Hawaii? You could easily look up this information on wikipedia and save yourself a lot of time.

Quote:

Finally, Pro Bowls can be measured; 3 Pro Bowls, see theres a measurement. It's quantitative. Of course the award itself is not intrinsicly a statistic, a tackle by itself without numbers, the simple act, is not a quantitative statistic either. What's your point?

You really can't comprehend by now what my point? Jesus man, you are slow. My whole point, which we have gone back and forth on numerous times, is that a Pro Bowl nomination is qualitative and subjective, not quantitative. It's a popularity contest. Period. End of story. I wish you could realize this, but it's obvious by now that you're slower than the average bear.

First, Mathis DID NOT get a sack against Ogden. He got one off of Pashos in the playoff game if that is what you are refferring to. Second, I did gave facts; # of sacks vs. Third, I never even mentioned the number of pro bowls that JO has been to. Fourth, I said that a number of pro bowls was a statistic, nothing else. If you were making the point that they were subjective, it was nebulous at best. Of course they are subjective. So are HOF selections. That doesn't mean they are irrelevant. I also already said that the system, while subjective, is still useful. By your logic, HOF selections are a popularity contest too, so why shouldn't pro bowls be considered?

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.

God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

I will take Edwin Pope's opinion over yours thank you. Considering he is one of 4 people that have been to every super bowl and has been covering the NFL before you lived most likely. At the same time he has a HoF vote. He says Zach is a HoF then he is.

Kevin Carter could end up making the lists, I said Could not for sure.

But Zach Thomas will be in the HoF.

Edwin Pope writes for the Miami Herald, what the hell do you expect him to say? Jesus Christ.

This is not an overgeneralization, and I have no agenda against Thomas, I'm just sick of every single Dolphins fan thinking Thomas has a legacy in this game when he doesn't. We even made a freakin' poll if he had ANY chance of making the HOF, and guess what, he lost!!!!

He was never the best at his position.

The Dolphins haven't done bumpkis in the playoffs in his career.

He's not a game changer, he's not influential, he doesn't make impact plays, and he doesn't have the ProBowls or the awards.

He's a tackling machine, and he's a scrappy player, but that doesn't get you in the HOF. Give it up.

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.

God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

I will take Edwin Pope's opinion over yours thank you. Considering he is one of 4 people that have been to every super bowl and has been covering the NFL before you lived most likely. At the same time he has a HoF vote. He says Zach is a HoF then he is.

Kevin Carter could end up making the lists, I said Could not for sure.

But Zach Thomas will be in the HoF.

Edwin Pope writes for the Miami Herald, what the hell do you expect him to say? Jesus Christ.

This is not an overgeneralization, and I have no agenda against Thomas, I'm just sick of every single Dolphins fan thinking Thomas has a legacy in this game when he doesn't. We even made a freakin' poll if he had ANY chance of making the HOF, and guess what, he lost!!!!

He was never the best at his position.

The Dolphins haven't done bumpkis in the playoffs in his career.

He's not a game changer, he's not influential, he doesn't make impact plays, and he doesn't have the ProBowls or the awards.

He's a tackling machine, and he's a scrappy player, but that doesn't get you in the HOF. Give it up.

And TMQ's Gregg Easterbrook said that Jeff Saturday was a future Hall of Famer. :roll: Just because on person said something, doesn't make it so. Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor epitomize the "Hall of the very good." They aren't famous, and when this era is looked back upon, they won't be looked upon like there more heralded peers.

Warren Sapp is not a sure thing and neither is Curtis Martin (the Art Monk among RBs).

Warren Sapp probably has the best chance to make it into the Hall than any of his Tampa Bay counterparts like Brooks, Rice, Barber, and Lynch. If one player from that defense makes it into the Hall, it's going to be Sapp.