Garudaman wrote:do you understand what the mean of another story? it means, Abraham delivered from Ur is correct & Abraham delivered from fire is also correct.

Oh I understand what you mean, but that does not take account of the facts....

The story of the fire is problematic because:

a) it is not part of the original story, and none of biblical writers speak of it,b) the first time it is mentioned is over 2000 years after Abraham's death, in a round about way, and that story, the Talmud story, is based on a translation error. It is a best just a story, a legend, and obviously not an account of events.c) The Qur'an does not make a distinction between proper sources and later embellishments, which makes it itself unreliable.

manfred wrote:Oh I understand what you mean, but that does not take account of the facts....

The story of the fire is problematic because:

a) it is not part of the original story, and none of biblical writers speak of it,b) the first time it is mentioned is over 2000 years after Abraham's death, in a round about way, and that story, the Talmud story, is based on a translation error. It is a best just a story, a legend, and obviously not an account of events.c) The Qur'an does not make a distinction between proper sources and later embellishments, which makes it itself unreliable.

a) muslim said it's the original story based on the Quran, you said itsn't original based on what? based on nothing (in the Bible)?b) so there's Jew who mistranslates city become fire & then (lying) making up a story? or, it's just (another) story that the translator incorrectly think are related to the Bible? think carefully!c) muslim said it's the proper source based on the Quran, you said it's embellishment based on what? based on nothing?

How come a god such as Allah is unable to present a clear and unambiguous message to mankind? Allah claims that the Koran is clear and easy to understand but he is very wide of the mark and apparently even unable to see that what he presented is nothing like what he claimed to be clear. Is Allah simple minded and deficient in basic intelligence?

It is as plain as the nose on your face that Muhammad created the Koran and that is why we have these banal inaccuracies and errors. You know very well that what we are telling you is correct and that the Koran(Muhammad) is wrong. Do you honestly believe that Allah is really that incompetent and even exists?

Just so that we can get things straight, what's the answer to these simple questions?Islam says previous prophets were sent books and these books were corrupted, so Allah had another try and sent the Koran to Mohammed.

1) Can we take it, then, that the previous prophets were also sent the Koran, which was then corrupted? After which, Allah sent an improved, incorruptible copy of the Koran? Or

2) Did Allah send earlier, incomplete books which, although originally containing the same contents of the Koran only contained part of it? Or

3) Did Allah send quite different contents, and if so why?

I take it that 1400 years of Islamic scholarship will have settled the matter.

"If a woman passes one kilometer from someone who is praying, is the prayer canceled then? What is the maximum distance from which a prayer is cancelled altogether?" Majid Oukacha

Allah is a total incompetent in conveying what is supposed to be the last and final guidance for mankind. How do we know which verses are meant to be literal and which allegorical? Why are we supposed to use context - does Allah say that we should? Who provides the context - muslims and their biased version of events. This makes the final guidance dependent upon man! What a joke. The Koran is a "pick and mix" between literal and allegorical and so there can be no unified version of Islam. If the Koran and Muhammad dictate that muslims who stray from the proper guidance are to be killed it begs the question as to who has the correct guidance? No wonder we have terrorism between different sects of Islam never mind against non-muslims.

Muhammad was not a scholar and that is why the Koran is so jumbled and full of errors and inaccuracies. No god worth his salt would want to be associated with the evil, farcical and alleged guidance in the Koran. Muhammad wasn`t interested in checking the guidance when he knew that he was in the final stage of life as it had already served Muhammad`s purpose of providing him with power, wealth and women. He was not even bothered about who his successor was. How come that at the very beginning of Islam there were different versions of Islam/guidance? Was Muhammad not aware of this evolving? How do you know that the Korans that were destroyed were all false? Where are the hadith saying that Allah sent down a message saying which was the correct version? There aren`t any as far as I know.

Can`t you see this, Garudaman? I can understand that it will upset you to think that your life has been wasted following the most evil doctrine that mankind has ever had to face. Your loyalty should be towards mankind in general and not the psychopath, Muhammad. Please see the Koran and Muhammad as they really are and not as you wish them to be.

Unlike bible for quran you have to look outside for any meaningful context example abu lahab 9:29 etc in his eagerness to make quran verbatim word of allah mo took out any context out of koran . This itself discredit koran as complete and clear source as it dependent on murky secondary sources to prove what it is

It is kind of odd how a book supposedly written before the universe existed and for for ALL time and and all people has a whole chapter on Mohammed's uncle, and not only that, a whole chapter bad mouthing him.

Of all the people in the entire history, only this man deserves such treatment?

How come a god such as Allah is unable to present a clear and unambiguous message to mankind? Allah claims that the Koran is clear and easy to understand but he is very wide of the mark and apparently even unable to see that what he presented is nothing like what he claimed to be clear. Is Allah simple minded and deficient in basic intelligence?

that "clear" is in term "for intelligent people" :

QS. 14:52. This [Qur'an] is notification for the people that they may be warned thereby and that they may know that He is but one God and that those of understanding will be reminded.

QS. 29:49. Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses [preserved] within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.

sum wrote:How do we know which verses are meant to be literal and which allegorical?

the position of the Quran as the truth/the guidance from God :

QS. 5:48. And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

QS. 45:20. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment for mankind and guidance and mercy for a people who are certain [in faith].

thus if literal wrong, we must use allegorical (interpretation).

sum wrote:Allah is a total incompetent in conveying what is supposed to be the last and final guidance for mankind. How do we know which verses are meant to be literal and which allegorical? Why are we supposed to use context

because it's the correct way to read writing, all writing.

sum wrote: - does Allah say that we should?

QS. 10:100. And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah, and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason.

QS. 14:52. This [Qur'an] is notification for the people that they may be warned thereby and that they may know that He is but one God and that those of understanding will be reminded.

QS. 29:49. Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses [preserved] within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.

You can't argue that literal words can be taken literally or allegorically. The words must be literal words intended to be taken literally or allegorical words intended to be understood as an allegory. Otherwise we're back to Humpty Dumpty again.However, once you have admitted that some parts of the Koran have to be read as allegories, as you have, we're faced with the problem of knowing which parts these are. At which point the Koran becomes unclear and requires human intervention to understand it and so not what it says it is: clearly not a perfect divine revelation.

"If a woman passes one kilometer from someone who is praying, is the prayer canceled then? What is the maximum distance from which a prayer is cancelled altogether?" Majid Oukacha