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As a non-color breeder, is there a rule of thumb as to which mares you should test? Is white or lack there of any indicator or is it simply breed specific? My filly has tons of white. If I were to breed her to the horse listed above (purely hypothetical to the Nth degree!) should she be tested or is the fact that her dam was a TB with little to no white anywhere in her family good enough? If someone were to pull a mare out of the kill pen with absolutely no inkling of her background but little to no white would you test her before breeding to the stallion above? I guess I am trying to judge just how big of an asshat the person referenced in the OP actually is.

Knowing what I know now, if I pulled a horse from the kill pen, I would have it tested, even to be a riding horse if it were a stock type. I've seen dumping first hand from paint breeders for HYPP, have heard second hand about dumping for Arab people - mostly just to get them off the feed bill or to cull, and I feel fairly confident that some QH folks do it as well, probably again for HYPP. And knowing that even solid colored horses can be carriers for lethal white....well, it would just be worth the money.

As a non-color breeder, is there a rule of thumb as to which mares you should test?

Anything of unknown breeding, or anything of breeding known to carry Frame, such as QH and Paint and minis, should be tested. Frame is in the TB world, but just a small handful of lines.

Is white or lack there of any indicator or is it simply breed specific?

Simply breed-specific in some cases (ie QH/Paint/minis) and anything with those mixes. A horse can be 100% solid, not a single white hair, and be a Frame carrier, so never rely on a visual for a solid or "just looks Tobiano" horse if the breed/breeding is potentially an issue

My filly has tons of white. If I were to breed her to the horse listed above (purely hypothetical to the Nth degree!) should she be tested or is the fact that her dam was a TB with little to no white anywhere in her family good enough?

Neither her TB side nor her WB side have any remote associated with Frame

If someone were to pull a mare out of the kill pen with absolutely no inkling of her background but little to no white would you test her before breeding to the stallion above? I guess I am trying to judge just how big of an asshat the person referenced in the OP actually is.

Absolutely 100% test, because the QH influence is in SUCH a large % of the horse population. And when you add an obvious spotted pattern to the mix, the odds increase, since the odds of there being APHA blood becomes higher, and APHA has a much higher prevalence of Frame than the QH

Originally Posted by oldernewbie

Knowing what I know now, if I pulled a horse from the kill pen, I would have it tested, even to be a riding horse if it were a stock type. I've seen dumping first hand from paint breeders for HYPP, have heard second hand about dumping for Arab people - mostly just to get them off the feed bill or to cull, and I feel fairly confident that some QH folks do it as well, probably again for HYPP. And knowing that even solid colored horses can be carriers for lethal white....well, it would just be worth the money.

As I have a gelding, not actually an issue for me!

Yep, I would have any kill pen or otherwise unpapered horse tested for HYPP at the very least, because if you end up with one, you AT LEAST need to know it's there and do what you can to manage it, which means paying close attention to potassium intake and stress levels. No need to test a gelding for Frame.

But since he HAS it, there still is a 50% chance the foal will have it - correct??

WHY would you breed this over? Oh I know $$$. Why would you ever risk it?? Oh I know $$$.

This horse does nothing else but halter. But of course claims *offspring* does or can do such and such more than halter or the ad leads one to believe that. Maybe the ad states the potential and not what it is in reality.

I guess as long as the stallion owner gets their $$ they do not care it seems.

But WHY would a mare owner knowingly breed to such a horse?

Also the mare was a black solid looking color (from marestare) and the resulting foal is a solid chestnut. Stallion is palo overo, mare solid, foal chestnut. Mare appears to be definitely a halter bred horse.

Why the risk? Just so the mare owner can get a foal which looks just like him? So they can show or sell the foal due to the coloring.

To me, color is so NOT important. Gait (movement), temp, conformation, trainability, is so much more important.

It would be heart breaking to have such a foal borne. And at the risk of possibly loosing the mare in the process. There is always the risk.

Since the foal's sire has the lwo gene, the foal now possesses it - correct? Or is dna in order to find out.

It's completely safe to carry one copy with no ill effects. Nothing to be heartbroken over if you breed Frame responsibly.

Then why have even one copy of it in the first place?

Just asking is all. Not to stir anything up, just asking is all.

You would *think* somebody would try to have the most perfect horse to breed on their dna. With a known lwo which is a problem, why have it in the first place to breed over. Why no just geld the horse or never breed that particular mare?

Same goes for hypp, scid, etc.

Why have a known dna problem going into a breeding situation?

$$ ?? And that would be on BOTH sides. For the mare owner to sell the foal for $$, and stallion owner for the $tud fees.

There are other paint stallions out there with no hypp and no lwo in their genes. Same goes for other horse breeds, dogs, cats, etc.

In the case I am talking about, no it is not the OP's horse she is speaking about.

But still, you have to suspect it is all about the money.

I got curious and looked for the OP's horse, but came across a different paint person breeding a mare, and is still currently listed on marestare.

BTW this stallion you refer too Shine, looks like they are keeping him thin (so not to appear overly bulky or perhaps this is how he should be managed with the N/H thing), AND he is N/H. ARG.

Why start with a known dna-strike against the foal from the get go. Are there no other stallions who are nice and are not hypp bred or at least N/N?? Looking at the pedigree, sheesh. 4 lines to Impressive.

You would *think* somebody would try to have the most perfect horse to breed on their dna. With a known lwo which is a problem, why have it in the first place to breed over. Why no just geld the horse or never breed that particular mare?

Because the color is gorgeous, and there's no need to get rid of the color. Especially in the Paint breed where color is almost mandatory. You can't show in the same classes if you don't have color, and you pretty much lose any market you had. Yes good horses are going to sell regardless, but the price and outlook are dramatically different.

Same goes for hypp, scid, etc.

HYPP is different as one copy DOES have a problem.

Why have a known dna problem going into a breeding situation?

Because heterozygous Frame ISN'T a DNA problem.

There are other paint stallions out there with no hypp and no lwo in their genes. Same goes for other horse breeds, dogs, cats, etc.

Why start with a dna-known strike against the foal?

Because it's NOT a strike (LWO at least. HYPP definitely is). It can give a GORGEOUS pattern to the foal with no ill effects. Why breed it out when it's not harming anything, and in fact ADDING to the foal?

You would *think* somebody would try to have the most perfect horse to breed on their dna. With a known lwo which is a problem, why have it in the first place to breed over. Why no just geld the horse or never breed that particular mare?

Same goes for hypp, scid, etc.

Why have a known dna problem going into a breeding situation?

There's a big difference between culling LWO+ horses and SCID/HERDA horses and an even bigger difference with HYPP horses.

LWO IS frame overo. You CANNOT have a frame overo without a horse being LWO positive. If it's frame, it's LWO positive.

1 copy of this gene causes no problems at all. None. It's not at all like HYPP, where N/H can (and often is) sympotmatic. That's a very easy answer.

And it's not like SCID or HERDA either, where you have the option to culling individuals based purely on /+. In this case, culling because a horse is LWO+ means culling an entire color out of existance. With SCID or HERDA you're not culling an entire segement of a population so that it becomes "extinct" and consigned to history.

I'm not advocating weighing SCID or HERDA or LFS status lightly, but these are also very mangeable statuses and if a horse is an otherwise exceptional individual, wise breeding practices make it totally safe to breed them.

But if you cull all LWO+ horses, you remove all frame overos. The gene that causes the frame overo coloration also causes lethal white when homozygous. It's not the only color gene linked to problems.

Overos are 100% mangeable with a $25 DNA test. They're more manegable than grays who develop melonomas. There is no reason to ever get a LWO foal beyond sheer ignorant stupidity.

"The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

I know about the hypp but didn't know that to get the color pattern a horse had to be lwo. Hypp definitely a strike against all future offspring, not to mention the horse itself.

I understand color is important to show if you want to show in the color classes.

The person I was speaking about risked, and got a solid. I understand it does happen.

I just will never get over the n/h and continuing to breed it on. We *know*, but some still do it. And, it is sad in the end the animal has it, and can suffer. When it could have been totally avoided.

Yes, Shine he does look beefy there. Guess they have to up the marketing glam to attract mare owners.

I wonder if he is symptomatic and the thinner body helps them and him manage the whole thing? Perhaps his feed is quite regulated and his thinner body is a result of it??? It sure looks like he could pack on some man-beef (sorry lex) with more food though based on the fancy front cover picture, but maybe they are holding back?

Interesting subject, I have definitely learned some things on this thread.

I do not have any paints, never have, just one breed right now. A Rocky. And, she is black, which I specifically wanted black due to the silver dapple / ASD thing, also I wanted the best eyes to see for the trail in this breed. I love black in this breed. Very pretty, and she is dna black, got a copy of her dna (somewhere around here). I have never wanted choco no matter how "alluring" it is for some. Not to get off topic btw. moving on . . .