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Originally posted by: cookers. . . Am I correct in assuming that if we use wind energy for supplying the Grid we have to invest in a 100% backup more reliable energy source, if we want to keep the lights on? . . .

Pretty much, assuming you expect the lights to come on each time you press the switch.

. . . Am I correct in assuming that this need for a back up must make wind energy a very poor way to generate electricity for the Grid, perhaps not sustainable economically. . .

I believe I found a list of the wind farms included in these reports on the NETA site and compared them and found them to be missing many sites on a list from the Renewable UK site. I'll see if I can find time over the weekend to track back.

I believe I found a list of the wind farms included in these reports on the NETA site and compared them and found them to be missing many sites on a list from the Renewable UK site. I'll see if I can find time over the weekend to track back.

Jonno,

I decided to do a bit of investigation myself and discovered the discrepancy you note is well known. The missing sites are local wind generation (not grid connected) that account for additional 40% of installed capacity.

I would think it likely that these local wind farms generated electricity in line with those that are grid connected so the picture is still disappointing.

Perhaps those that are skeptical of wind power, as it is presently conceived, have a point.

I did expect somebody from the wind energy industry to reply and tell me all was well, and that my observations of the wind turbines being taken out of use in cold icy weather was wrong.

All energy systems are subject to disruption, however wind turbines appear not to generate in cold icy weather, so if we do get a severe winter I can quite easily foresee circumstances when this would bring about national social disruption.

Cookers, er... I believe the appropriate response to your discovery that wind farms aren't much use at generating electricity is "No sh1t Sherlock".

But you've misunderstood their purpose. It is not to generate reliable cheap electricity, of which they are incapable. Their purpose is to transfer wealth from poor energy bill payers to rich land owners and foreign ruinables companies. And for that purpose they are eminently suited.

I did expect somebody from the wind energy industry to reply and tell me all was well

If they were to pull their head out of the subsidy trough long enough to reply, the justification would be something like "climate change... cough....saving the planet... mumble.... green growth...." before giving you a smug sanctimonious smile and plunging their head back into the subsidy trough.

Am I correct in assuming that if we use wind energy for supplying the Grid we have to invest in a 100% backup more reliable energy source, if we want to keep the lights on?

Depends how you want to look at it, there are those that are of the belief that if enough wind generation is installed, but distributed across the country then it can act as a backup for itself as the climate at any moment in time varies across the country so the right conditions for the wind turbines is likely to exist somewhere.

Ultimately no matter what the technology used for electricity generation, the Grid has always had spinning reserve and fast response stations on standby to act as a backup for lost generation.

Originally posted by: dlanethere are those that are of the belief that if enough wind generation is installed across the country then it can act as a backup for itself as the climate at any moment in time varies across the country so the right conditions for the wind turbines is likely to exist somewhere.

A 'belief' that can easily be dismissed by looking at the actual data from UK windfarms as the John Muir Trust reported in 2011:

On 124 separate occasions from November 2008 to December 2010, the total generation from the windfarms metered by National Grid was less than 20MW (a fraction of the 450MW expected from a capacity in excess of 1600 MW). These periods of low wind lasted an average of 4.5 hours.

At each of the four highest peak demand points of 2010, wind output was extremely low at 4.72%, 5.51%, 2.59% and 2.51% of capacity at peak demand.

Wind Turbine energy generation could be made OK, if (and its a big if!) some way of storing energy could be configured.

I always look at the tall towers and wonder if that height and structure of the tower could be utilised, my mind skips through all sorts of systems of rising weights and mechanical mechanisms.

However it appears there are fundamental issues, and most of the time my observations are the turbines are stationary, it appears too much or too little wind, ice, snow, cold will all result in the plant being out of use, the turbines only appear to operate in a very narrow "goldilocks" climate window.

Wind power contributed over 12% to the UK grid last weekend - A new record!

I've lifted the RenewableUK press release below:

"A record amount of electricity has been generated by wind energy in Great Britain, according to National Grid.
The new high was reached on Sunday morning, when wind generated more than 5 gigawatts for the first time - more than 12% of the nation's electricity needs for industry, businesses and households - enough to power more than ten million British homes.
It's the first time that wind energy has exceeded the 5 gigawatt threshold in Britain.

RenewableUK's Deputy Chief Executive Maf Smith said:
"This new record proves that Britain is generating an increasingly significant amount of clean electricity from wind. The quantity of low-carbon energy that wind is feeding into the grid is continuing to surge upwards. We're set to generate at least 15% of the UK's electricity from wind by 2020.

As well as creating tens of thousands of green-collar jobs, and the wider environmental benefits, wind gives us another very important advantage - energy security. The UK can take control of the way we generate our power by using a secure, natural, local source of energy rather than relying on imports of expensive fossil fuels from unstable parts of the world. Wind as a crucial part of our energy mix and is becoming more important as extra onshore and offshore capacity is added to the system."

In fact, the total amount of electricity generated from wind in the UK is even higher. A further 2.5 gigawatts of wind capacity, which is connected to local and regional electricity networks, is not metered. This extra output isn't recorded by National Grid officials because most of it usually serves the local area rather than being fed into the grid nationwide. "