You don't want it so close to a d800 that it makes no sense to purchase a d800. Though we all want the best bang for our buck, the reality is that the company will do what it thinks is best for it.

Having said that I think Nikon really needs to make a d400 type camera. The d7100 would have fit the bill IF it had a better buffer and a faster burst capture. Perhaps Nikon is having an issue making such a camera without significantly raising its price.

OK - if you say that the DF is the best and smallest/lightest low light DSLR (no argument) ....then by that logic...stay with me here... Then:

The D610 is the smallest/lightest high resolution/high DR DSLR currently available!

Actually the smallest highest resolution camera from Nikon is the D800.

...and some folks are not pompous jerks who look down on people who can't afford to spend $3K on a camera. For most people, even the D610 is a major stretch. Yes, due to your extreme narcissism, we all know money is no object to you - you have a Rolex, a sailboat, can single hand a 70 foot sailboat, are going to spend $60K on a car, you are a pro, have lots of pro friends and contacts at B&H and Adorama, blah, blah, blah... Funny thing is that most truly wealthy people I've met don't feel a need to tell everyone about all their stuff....

It's funny, but if you actually look you will find that I never called anyone names or said anything mean-spirited about cameras or the people who used them, until they did!

Ahhh, the old "he started it" bit! Sadly it's true.

The attacks on a certain camera and the folks who bought them have been constant here. It did not start with me. The previous group of Df threads were started by others. Before I entered any of them the attacks began. Check for yourself.

Now that I've bloodied the nose of the D610, many are crying FOUL! Hey, you can't put down MY purchase, but I can put down yours!

Oh, and I'm NOT wealthy and never said I was. I own a sailboat, not a mega yacht. 60K is not expensive for a car these days. I don't own a Rolex; never said that I did. I do have friends at camera shops and I work with pros in the business, as do many others. I have a friend who works for Nikon as well. I haven't painted you a picture; you've just made assumptions.

I don't think the D600/610 is junk, but I do think it's a lousy value compared to a D800. And once you buy a D800, A Df adds more capability to a kit than a D610.

All of my points about the D610 are factual. How you add them up is not my problem.

I meant within the Nikon FF lineup. Not things that take pictures in general. As Apple said "Every day, more pictures are taken with an Iphone than any other camera"

Well, yeah, but that's a much lower hurdle to get over. I guess the 6D is Canon's camera for the masses, but it's probably about 195th on the list of Canon's best sellers. There just aren't many people shooting with full frame given the quality of the alternatives. Which was not the case in the film days when a much higher percentage of folks were shooting 35mm film. Then, it probably was the format of the masses...

I would love a D4 for its build and shooting speed.I would love a D800/D800E for its MP.

If I buy one or the other I would then be upset by its shortfall in either its speed or MP.

Solution the D610.It has an acceptable frame rate,MP and ISO.It is weather proofed to the same standard as the D800 and is not made of all plastic.It has acceptable IQ ,is light to carry and easy to use.

So while your right to say it isn't the best at everything why not say what it is.

I'm curious as to what you think a fair price should be? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. At $2,000, you need to spend $2,800 in a Nikon and $7000 in a Canon to get a significantly better camera (and still not a better sensor). You can also buy D600's for $1700 or so, new, which is basically the same camera.

I don't know a single person who couldn't afford to spend $1,700-$2,000 on their hobby, if they really wanted to. I'd say it is a FF camera "for the masses", or at least the closest thing we have.

It's funny, but if you actually look you will find that I never called anyone names or said anything mean-spirited about cameras or the people who used them, until they did!

You are right. You didn't call anyone names, from what I've read. However the point of your exercise on your other thread, was designed to be an insult. You have some neurotic need to defend your position at all costs. I've also read a number of posts about "that other camera," including your beginning posts, before the Df was released. Obviously, you had made the decision to buy this camera back then. But when some weren't so quick to agree with you, you attacked them as being jealous, as being trolls, as being economically motivated to not like the Df. The last one is true. I, for one, wasn't going to spend $2750 on a camera, that my already owned D600 did at $2100, and did it better.

Ahhh, the old "he started it" bit! Sadly it's true.

The attacks on a certain camera and the folks who bought them have been constant here. It did not start with me. The previous group of Df threads were started by others. Before I entered any of them the attacks began. Check for yourself.

I believe you did start it. From what I have read you were first one to question the motives of those who didn't fall in love with the Df. You pay lip service to "each his own" but your incessant personal attacks on those who don't agree with you belies how you really feel. If you question the motives Robert, we are talking about cameras here. As important as they are to us, is it really worth alienating those who disagree with our choices, by attacking their motives? Defend your choices? Absolutely! But defend the product; don't attach some personal agenda to your critics. If you are a good photographer, and I believe you have some talent, what do you care what others say about your tools. They are not attacking you. They are criticizing the tool as far as their needs are concerned. The attacks you have suffered have been brought on by you, because you take it personally.

Now that I've bloodied the nose of the D610, many are crying FOUL! Hey, you can't put down MY purchase, but I can put down yours!

You've bloodied nothing. In fact, you just proved my point. You are basically saying that criticizing the camera, one is attacking the user. That's absurd. All you really want is validation of your decision. When its not forthcoming, you take it personally. The camera does not make the man; the man makes the camera. For some of us, the camera, while important, is secondary to the art. I aspire to be a better photographer, not to be a proud owner, although I am proud to own the equipment I have. You don't like my tool, fine, get your own. Criticism of a tool is just that. As far as I can tell, and I intend to investigate that further, the Df is not a tool that I need.

I don't think the D600/610 is junk, but I do think it's a lousy value compared to a D800. And once you buy a D800, A Df adds more capability to a kit than a D610.

But by inference you are saying the D6xx is not a lousy value when compared to the Df. OK

I understand your logic. You are saying spend $5400 on two cameras, when I can have most of what both cameras (Df, D800) have for $2000 (D6xx). Makes sense to me, LOL;-)

I own more than 5K of lenses, & have a FF Nikon in my sights; most probably the D610 (with the Dƒ a distant second till now).

How does that make him wrong? If you own more than 5K worth of lenses, I'd submit that YOU'RE not the masses either. It is the relative entry level of the highest level of camera that most of the ELITE will ever consider (full frame 35mm). Yeah, there are a few, mostly pros, who will buy the occasional medium format, but if you're buying full frame, you're not the masses, almost by definition...

I am still wondering why Nikon didn't update the d700 to a 24 mp sensor with 51 point af.. To me personally 24 mp is about right for file size, ability to crop quite a bite. The d700 body was very rugged and operation was excellent. Maybe Nikon wanted a little lower priced camera for an entry fx camera user by producing the d600/d610. An updated d700 would raise the price up to just below or about the same as the d800?

Actually the d610 should be an excellent camera with the 24 mp sensor and hopefully the 39 point af is working ok.

I own more than 5K of lenses, & have a FF Nikon in my sights; most probably the D610 (with the Dƒ a distant second till now).

How does that make him wrong? If you own more than 5K worth of lenses, I'd submit that YOU'RE not the masses either. It is the relative entry level of the highest level of camera that most of the ELITE will ever consider (full frame 35mm). Yeah, there are a few, mostly pros, who will buy the occasional medium format, but if you're buying full frame, you're not the masses, almost by definition...

……making my decision process more difficult, your great work with the Dƒ is not making it any easier

(Thanks for putting your perspective into this thread)

I haven't made the leap for a D610 or Dƒ yet because in my line of work great SOOC JPEGs with great skintones under a wide variety of lighting conditions is a must.

Studio/portrait work is also part of the equation, & portability is a big factor, otherwise I would've already sprung for a D800e by now. The Fuji S bodies I use already give me all that, icluding JPEGs with amazing tonality & tone curve SOOC;except FF, rez (much less important than one thinks) & modern DSLRs' high ISO capability.

Your excellent work posted here got me thinking about the Dƒ too, even though I would love to have the U1 & U2 settings & a bit more rez (MP are much less important than many would think in my job).

If you would like to give me feedback re. JPEG output of any of these 2 cameras, or how much if any PP was done (eg to this image of yours or this, or any image preferably with people) I would appreciate if you so wish.

Those highly experienced, professional, versatile and skilled photographers like most National Geographic pros are the cream of the crop, but all of us here at Dpreview belong to the masses. As such we should be thankful that we live in a time were fine cameras like the D800, D600, Df, etc, each in their own merit, are available at relatively affordable prices to us.

I could also testify on Shotcents' arrogance. Everyone has to respect his opinions, but unfortunately he doesn't know a thing about reciprocity.

Its not arrogance, although he may be arrogant, that drives him to his extremes. It is his insecurity. He needs validation. When he doesn't get it he lashes out. Now we all need validation, but his need borders on paranoia.

But Robert isn't the whole problem. Evidently many feel that it is the culture of these forums that feed his behaviors. First of all, he goes unchecked. Many of us will call him on it, but we have no authority. Secondly, some find him entertaining. They enjoy his bizarre behavior, his insults, the frivolous debates he starts. Think about it. He started a thread on the D600/D610 yesterday. In one day there were 149 responses. The limit on a thread is 150. But it hasn't stopped. We are into a second thread, this one. And this D600/D610 thread has degenerated into a discussion about Robert. It should have ended a long time ago.

Maybe its time we stop feeding this guy (and people like him) and let him "starve to death."

How does that make him wrong? If you own more than 5K worth of lenses, I'd submit that YOU'RE not the masses either. It is the relative entry level of the highest level of camera that most of the ELITE will ever consider (full frame 35mm). Yeah, there are a few, mostly pros, who will buy the occasional medium format, but if you're buying full frame, you're not the masses, almost by definition...

……making my decision process more difficult, your great work with the Dƒ is not making it any easier

(Thanks for putting your perspective into this thread)

I haven't made the leap for a D610 or Dƒ yet because in my line of work great SOOC JPEGs with great skintones under a wide variety of lighting conditions is a must.

Studio/portrait work is also part of the equation, & portability is a big factor, otherwise I would've already sprung for a D800e by now. The Fuji S bodies I use already give me all that, icluding JPEGs with amazing tonality & tone curve SOOC;except FF, rez (much less important than one thinks) & modern DSLRs' high ISO capability.

Your excellent work posted here got me thinking about the Dƒ too, even though I would love to have the U1 & U2 settings & a bit more rez (MP are much less important than many would think in my job).

If you would like to give me feedback re. JPEG output of any of these 2 cameras, or how much if any PP was done (eg to this image of yours or this, or any image preferably with people) I would appreciate if you so wish.

First off, nothing I was saying is in ANY WAY intended to question your choice or anyone else's choice of a D610 or a Df or any other full frame camera - I'm just arguing who constitutes "the masses"... From what I can tell (never having shot with a D610), they're both incredibly good cameras with slightly different tradeoffs. I'm much more into the low light sensitivity and generally more forgiving nature of the lower res Df sensor than the higher resolution of the D610 sensor, but that's not a better or worse - just a personal preference that makes the Df a better fit for me.

Second, thanks so much for your kind words. I put a few more new images up on my Flickr page from a treacherous walk I took on the slippery melting ice this morning, but I don't think there are any people in them.

Third, those, and most any images I take with the Df are raw images processed first in Lightroom and then enhanced somewhat in Color Efex Pro (Silver Efex Pro for B&W). Some of the processing is pretty heavy handed, some is pretty mild, often doing little more than adding a border and maybe a slight vignette.

I did do some un-intentional jpeg shooting on my first big outing with the camera when I'd set up a second bank of shooting settings but forgot to change the image type to raw. Here are a few jpegs from that day, with people in them:

Edit - let me add one more - the only shot of white folks that I left in color that day, for no particular reason all of the other white faces I shot I ended up processing in B&W. I hadn't noticed that the previous four were all of people of color... Maybe I'm finally getting to that "color-blind" place we all like to think we are...

None of those are SOOC - all have been somewhat processed in Color Efex Pro. I think the first two were barely processed and the third a bit more, and the fourth more heavily. The fifth I probably didn't do too much to or I'd have probably toned down the guy's orange hoodie. I don't recall specifically messing with the colors, but some of the filters I was playing with probably had some impact on the skin tones. I'm not an "accuracy at all costs" shooter by any means, as is probably VERY obvious from my stuff. But I try not to make the people look too much like Martians!

I'm probably not the best person to talk to about SOOC skin tones under a variety of lighting. I find the Df quite good, but I almost always shoot in raw and if something is off, it's as often as not a WB issue and easily fixed with in raw, but probably less so if you're working with a jpeg...

Maybe its time we stop feeding this guy (and people like him) and let him "starve to death."

The only way to effectively deal with deliberately disruptive members on an open forum like this is to delete their posts and/or ban their accounts. There are just too many people with access to this forum to expect that everyone will spontaneously refuse to rise to the bait of these instigators.

Ideally, community-based moderation can identify the trouble-makers and act swiftly to suppress their antics - through deleting posts, locking threads, issuing warnings, and closing out the accounts of troublemakers. While stopping a persistent agitator can take time and patience, my experience is that sooner or later even the most dedicated of troublemakers tires of creating account after account and posting rambling screeds, only to have their words deleted almost as soon as they appear.

I know we have at least two "moderators" here in this forum, but I have not seen either of them for weeks. Though as I said elsewhere, it's gotten so overwhelming juvenile and repetitive around here lately that I really don't pass through much any more.