What knowledge changes your perception of whether or not something is beautiful?

In Richard Seymour's video, 'How beauty feels', he discusses the idea of beauty. One of the particular aspects he talks about is how generally our view of something's beauty is based not on the intrinsic appearance of something, but on extrinsic interpretations or processing of it. One example he gives is a drawing that looks to be made by a small child. He asks whether or not the audience finds it beautiful. Then he proceeds to inform us that the drawing was by a little girl, just prior to her death by cancer. This drastically alters are perceptions, because it is not simply a drawing, but one layered with much more emotional meaning. My question here is what knowledge, or what kinds of knowledge, change our emotional perceptions, and thus our view of whether or not something is beautiful?

Added to this could also be questions of what is beauty (I would, at this moment, say a particular kind of emotional response to or interpretation or a thing), and what different kinds of beauty there are (because I might find the above mentioned drawing beautiful in a poignant sense, or I might find a picture of an explosion awesome, or perhaps a statue aesthetically pleasing). These questions become relevant because I would guess that different kinds of knowledge about an object or thing, evoke different kinds of beauty.

Lastly, how universal are these responses? Does everyone find the little girl's drawing beautiful after hearing that she died right afterwards? If they do, is it all in a poignant sense? I would guess that there is some universality, but also some that isn't, so what distinguishes between whether or not it would be a universal interpretation?

Oct 12 2011:
I often look at people of all sorts and think how utterly lovely they are. One phenomenon for me is though, that if I see that same person do something ugly like yank on a child's arm, or ridicule someone, they instantly are no longer beautiful and I cannot seem to see them the same way again.

Oct 12 2011:
I can understand that. I struggle sometimes with trying to...be kind in thoughts of people I dislike, because they all have short comings. But everyone has potential to be lovely, and it is a process to get there. That is hard to always keep in mind though.
Thank you for your comments!

Oct 12 2011:
Hi Eva, You are right, of course. When we only have the physical impression of a person we tend to project many things onto them. That initial perception, one of physical loveliness is superceded by new information more of the kind you refer to which is their internal state or internal being. That projects through the exterior.

The man was head of a hospital for mental disabled in Hawaii.
It was a mess before he came and every director left within months.
He, Dr. Lew didn't much but reading the files of the patients.
After a few years they had to close for lack of patients.
They got better and better and had to be released.

Oct 13 2011:
A very interesting question Isaac. ... And a very beautiful one.
I guess for me, something that moves me in some way (spiritually, mentally or physically) is beautiful. Things are not beuatiful themselves; its us who make them beautiful.

Just like Mr. Seymour said in this particularly thoughtful video, "We do not see things as they are, but as we are." And I agree. The world looks the way we see it. We might see beauty in anything-- in the simplest structures possible, that seem completely ordinary. We might not see beauty in something that is generally considered gorgeous. Why? Because it is our perception-- our point of view, which tells us what is beautiful and what isnt.

What can change this perception? I would say knowledge. Not the academic knowledge you acquire at school, but knowledge of life and of the certain thing, whose beauty is upon the decision.
I am aiming at people. Think back... Im sure there were cases, where you judged someone by the first sight and thought they were not extraordinary or beautiful, but when you got to know them, your opinon changed. You realized, that when they smile, their face lights up adorably, or that when they talk, their eyes glisten with excitement. You started to feel the vibe, the energy and the beauty of them. All because of the knowledge gained.

Beauty, and the perception of beauty, is something genuinely intimate, personal, and beautiful :)

The knowledge that changes my perception of whether or not something is beautiful is when I am aware of it's integrity.

The converse is true, for me, too.

When i have knowledge that something lacks integrity, I have a much harder time seeing it's beauty. And if this knowledge emerges after I previously perceived it as possessing integrity, I lose faith in any original integrity it might have actually had.

Oct 13 2011:
Thank you Andrea! You are giving words to some of the concepts expressed by others, which I quite appreciate. Integrity is about the best, most accurate sounding word for the qualities of context that affect perceptions.
Isaac

Oct 12 2011:
Beauty is shaped by our memories, of course, and by our individual preferences - which, again, are based on past experiences and associations we make in our lives.

That being said, the one type of beauty that fascinates me is people's beauty. How you can see someone a first time and think nothing more of it, but then discover how amazingly beautiful they are when you get to know them more. It's little things that make a difference... that can be endearing and/or beautiful.

Sometimes, something insanely creative is beautiful just because it is so out of the ordinary.

Oct 12 2011:
I appreciate what you are saying in regards to how getting to know someone changes what they look like. It makes me think of an episode of Dr. Who, though I don't think I'll specify, since you may not happen to watch that.
People become physically much more beautiful when you care for them, and in a deeper sense, who they are becomes more beautiful seeming.

Nov 6 2011:
Hi Isaac,
Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder.
To me, Beauty is seen through actions, it allows the soul to be seen. Beauty is kindness, love and pure goodness, postive intent.
Simple as that.
:) ~ Jeni

Oct 12 2011:
Maybe just like the word 'love' 'beauty' is used to mean many things. There are things some people call beautiful, simply because they have a positive reaction to it, which may be conditioned by past experiences, biological programming or such things. This would perhaps be analogous to 'love' as need, or attachment.

Then there are those things that are archetypal, like a sunset, or the beauty in mathematics, or music or many other things I can't think of right now. These are not reactional, but can be felt more when a person is more in touch with their subtler part/ perception and so on. It is what I would call a feeling as opposed to an emotion. It could be considered analogous to unconditional love.

Oct 12 2011:
I do believe you are correct in saying that they are used to mean many things.

The second part...I don't feel as though I entirely understand, but it seems as though it would be a very...useful, interesting, concept for me to understand. What do you mean by feeling, and by emotion, or what distinguishes them from each other for you? Could you expand more on this subtler part/perception (I feel I have a basic idea of what you mean here...but more details, or more in depth, would help me to understand more.).

Oct 12 2011:
What I mean by feeling vs emotion is that there are times when we react, meaning that what we do is not chosen consciously, but is a mechanism that plays out automatically, and we get carried away by it. (Maybe one can get very angry at something and realise half way through the reaction that they are doing it again... that sort of thing). These are emotions. Feelings by comparison are not based on some mechanistic programming, so to speak, or are not conditional. Feelings come from your real self, and can be something like contemplating a higher symmetry, or for no reason at all. You can feel enthusiastic, joyful, or just be able to think or view things with clarity. These can all be feelings.

By the subtler part etc I mean I have the experience of some part(s) of me that can have extremely refined perception, and when i am coming from this part I feel (as in feelings), and am out of the reactive (emotional) parts of me.

Oct 13 2011:
This is quite helpful, thank you. I think I'd have to agree with your thoughts in regards to thoughts and feelings, although I would question whether or not emotions are still not part of your real self, although perhaps a different part of one's self? I don't know.

I am curious of your perceptions of love then, if I may ask, given this concept of feeling and emotion. What does love consist of, and how does feeling and emotion go into it, and also the subtler part?
Isaac

Oct 12 2011:
I would think any information that disarms our filters would allow us to find beauty in the things we behold. We might see a picture and think it is poorly drawn based on some standard. But when we learn the photo is drawn by a child, our expectations and, therefore, appreciation might change. Learning about the child's illness might disarm our more judgmental reactions; we might also associate the picture with our feelings with sympathy or sadness, so the reaction it evokes from us changes. The image evokes a feeling, the information might change the feeling it evokes.

Oct 12 2011:
If we are pushed into liking something, whether it be by guilt (like with the little girl's drawing) or bias, then the sentiment behind it cannot be honest. We might say we find something beautiful but not really mean it, and in my opinion the dishonesty is worse than the people who pushed us into liking these things in the first place.

Because we come from numerous cultures it is hard to claim something is universally beautiful. Some might disagree out of spite, others will continue the tradition of dishonesty I put forward earlier. The purity of something beautiful is lost in its interpretations, becoming something completely different to it's original form by the time we are through processing it.

Oct 12 2011:
I appreciate your comment, and thank you for it. I do have thoughts though, in regards to what you are saying. If you feel something that you don't appreciate should be, and thus have a guilty type feeling, that sounds rather dishonest, but what if you genuinely find something beautiful because of someone else's influence, in trying to have you see it as such? Even if the way they get you to see it as beautiful is through guilt, if that is what you see, then does that change what you feel? Is it not still beauty? The way you say, do we not still like something, regardless of how we got to like it? (I imagine my bias clear, that I think the answer to those is that it is yes, but I would like to distinguish, I'm not addressing the honesty of getting someone else to like something, simply whether you honestly like something due to someone else's influence.)

I would also say that what was said about the little girl's drawing, while intended to get a particular response, did not for me at least seem to be with the intent of making us feel guilt. My perception of it changed, not by guilt, but by empathy, sympathy, and by a further understanding of the situation. A connectedness to it. Not at all by guilt. Would what he said be less dishonest seeming in a different context? If the information shapes your view in a particular way, no matter which way it is, is it dishonest to tell that to get a particular view? Despite the difference in context, is it really different than if you were talking to a mother, who had that drawing hung up, and you were to ask about it, and be told that it was her daughter's, and get the same story?

If you are to say that it is different in different contexts, would you say that it is dishonest in this man's particular use, where it is used to help us to understand what he is trying to say rather than say if it was in an advertisement to give away money to someone?

Oct 12 2011:
This implies that you can see things intended to be beautiful in (depending on the object, of course) countless ways. And also may grade their beauty very differently, depending on the amount of information you have about it.
Would you imagine the most beautiful red painting you have ever seen. And then. Someone tells you it's been painted with the blood of little puppies. That would lead to an instant reevaluation, at least for me it would.
But. Did that really change the beauty of the picture itself, outside of the context of its creation?

Oct 12 2011:
I think that it depends on how you are conceptualizing beauty...from the viewpoint that beauty is inherent in something, no it wouldn't. From the viewpoint, which I am presently coming from, that beauty is constructed in the minds of those interpreting, and not really a characteristic of something, it very well could. My viewpoint, since it was thought up consciously like that only today, lacks some of the nuance to make it fully what I want to be still...

Another viewpoint occured to me, that perhaps there is an inherent beauty to everything, and we respond based on what parts of it that we see. Thus with different amounts of information, and different backgrounds, we'll see different parts of an entire picture, and from those parts form a perception of something, which is only part, rather than all, of the whole thing. So with the painting in blood, knowing of its creation would not change its beauty, but it would change our perception of its beauty, but our perceptions would never line up fully with the thing's actual beauty. I'm not sure if that is clear. It is difficult sometimes clearly express ideas you've just thought of, but I hope I managed alright.

Oct 12 2011:
My sense is that there IS an inherent beauty in things, and that when we are in touch with the 'truth of the thing' then we can appreciate its beauty. All other stuff is emotional and a reaction, and comes from out emotional baggage so to speak, or other programming like culture, family organisation. This is so, whether the reaction is 'positive' or 'negative'.

Oct 30 2011:
Information provided from outside, can be useful when we ourselves are perceiving through conditioned eyes. When outside information reminds us that we are unconditional and unlimited, we are able to bring ourselves back to the truth that we can appreciate the beauty that is there.

Oct 13 2011:
Martin let me tell you respectfully that you are wrong with your assertions...the beauty NEVER depends of the amount of information you have. And your example about puppies blood is out of the question here. Please be more and better oriented and informed if you want play games.

Oct 13 2011:
Jaime, beauty tends to be a subjective thing...even if you or I believe in an objective reality for it. People are allowed to have different ideas, thoughts, and beliefs about it, because they more than likely experience it differently. The point isn't to assert your views, and impose them on others, as you are doing, but to say what you think, and discuss the topic, so as to develop a greater understanding of your beliefs, to incorporate useful ideas you'd not thought of into your thoughts and view and beliefs, and to help others to further develop similarly.

I do respect that you are trying to express your views to Martin respectfully, but the way you do it comes off to me like you are not being very respectful, and trying to impose your evaluative judgements and opinions on others. If you had objective, empirical evidence for a claim, this would be a somewhat different matter, but seeing as you provide none, the way you say your comment does not seem the most appropriate.

And thank you, Jamie, for not reading the last question in my first post... I appreciate that you're asserting your point of view, even if you are doing it as aggressively as you did. But let me assure you, I did never intend to "play games" with anyone. I'd go see some friends if i would want to do that...

All I did ever say was, that receiving the information, that the creation of such a wonderful painting involved utterly cruel methods, would involuntarily change my perception of its beauty. Though knowing, that it is in fact the same picture, I wouldn't be able to appreciate it's beauty in the same way as before getting that information.

And: No Sir, in my opinion the beauty of things ALWAYS depends on the amount of information we have.

(Though you might have meant the information about the observed object itself, I am going a little bit further in order to spark some more discussion: )

Imagine you lived in an empty room with nothing but white walls in it from the moment you were born. How would you perceive a simple picture as opposed to someone else. Perception of beauty always depends on the individual.

When I said one should imagine the most beautiful red painting one has ever seen, that means something different for each individual person, as beauty is to a certain degree a matter of personal perception and, of course, experiences. Or why would we argue with our spouses about the color to paint the living-room in?
Of course, everything looks the same, but. If it comes to beauty, you wouldn't be able to measure it entirely(!) without personal values and experienced beauty to measure it against.

Oct 25 2011:
Social learning is very influencial about what is beautiful. But We have our own perception of things, so at the end the things that society try to influence on us has no effect. Our feelings, instincs, mind, and experience take the ultimate decision of whether or not something is beautiful, it doesnt matter if someone else think you are wrong about what true beauty is, if is real to you, i think thats enough. It would be strange if every human agree to one idea about beauty.

Oct 13 2011:
I started crying when I learned the little girl's last act before dying of cancer had been the drawing. I couldn't really explain why I found it to be beautiful and felt justified in Mr. Seymour's contentedness in saying it was just beautiful and leaving it at that, haha. But I think it has something to do with bravery and the preservation of innocence even in the most difficult situations. . .which boils down to hope for and faith in humanity, I think. That inspires me to continue seeing beauty in everything.

Even if someone does something "awful", I can still acknowledge superficial beauty, but I would not want to be personally involved with someone like that. I think in many cases, deeper beauty relies on context or function, like the plastic bag filtering water. There are obviously different sorts of beauty, but my favorites usually depend on context, or acknowledging something I love or desire in myself, whether conscious or unconsciously.

I think history surrounding an object is important, too. When I know an artist had suffered, I can more easily see that in their work and it allows me to appreciate it more. Conversely, if I see something I think is beautiful but learn there is no spirit behind it, I am much less moved or able to find it beautiful. I once saw a girl in what I thought to be very unique clothing walking down the street, and felt a sort of love and respect for her individuality. When I almost immediately saw another girl dressed almost exactly the same way, I realized it was merely a fad and found neither of them as beautiful anymore.

Oct 13 2011:
The type of knowledge that would change my perception on whether or not something is beautiful certainly varies, but the more nostalgic, positive, or empathetic feelings triggered by the information, about an object, the more beauty I find in it. Often the more pain or struggle behind the object increases the beauty...as I find more beauty while in a compassionate or empathetic state. Beauty is all in the way something makes me feel. If i feel like I want to be a part of something, I become drawn to it, or just want to look at it...this is beauty...very much perceived by feelings.

Oct 13 2011:
It depends on how one defines beauty. Beauty in an object or thing can refer to the qualities in the object that deem it to be beautiful, or it can also refer to how the object is created, the reason behind the creation of the object etc... How do we define something that is beautiful? To me, it depends on which is the focus...For example, how the object or thing is created does not interfere in my perception of beauty...like vandalism. Yes, vandalism is an illegal act but if the vandal illustrates super creativity in his art and creates a masterpiece during the vandalism act, i would not discredit him on the beauty of his art...To me, it is still beautiful if it illustrates qualities that i admire.. It's just that he chooses to express his creativity and talent through this avenue, which many of us see it as wrong act....To me, seeing something as beautiful requires the person being able to appreciate the qualities as protrayed in the object (be it intentionally or not)...independent of the means to do it...It might also depend on the perception of the individual, the experiences he brings along with him will shape how he views certain things to be beautiful. What one may see as beautiful may not be beautiful in the other's eyes. One possible reason might be that we use different judging criteria in the first place. i see beauty if the product have A on my checklist but not for the other dude who sees beauty if he has B on his checklist.

Oct 13 2011:
Just one quick note , Richard Seymour pointed out that Light fading out in BMW makes us feel better because of the same feeling of movies Theaters , I personally don't believe it is for that.

I think it is because of the SUNSET not cinemas , For thousands of years sunset meant we could stop working, go home, rest and sleep, or maybe have a little fun before sleep ;) SUNSET mean it is time to RELAX.

Oct 13 2011:
yeah, normally when respond to something at that level its very deep inside , and usually embedded in our Gens , like the joy of hearing bird sing , sound of waves or breeze of ocean and on the other side fear of snakes , spiders and Darkness.

we have been going to movies for maybe two generations and just once or twice a week, I am a film maker so just imagine me talking about Movie theaters not being effective in that term ;)

Oct 13 2011:
Thank you Adriaan! Your description of beauty resonates with me. It seems as though how it interacts with things we have different emotions for would also be applicable, like if something interacted with something else we dislike or hate, it could perhaps negatively impact our conceptions of its beauty.

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Oct 14 2011:
People have, in this conversation, said things similar to that, but the phrasing you give is very direct, and hearing the same thing in different ways often helps to give a different perspective and understanding, and makes you think more. But, yes, I'd have to agree that it is largely an indication of who we are, or what kind of person we are!

Oct 14 2011:
I desagree with you Adrian, I learned by my self my knowledge of beauty, reading what more else existe that the ambience in which I live. I'm different from my parents likes, they are completly out of knowledge about decoration, I learned because I'm intereseted in modernity, in good taste, in be more for me and my son, my ambitions, my goals (professional and financial). I have a University entitled degree Maths-Finance, different to decoration or art, and additional to my degree during my professional experience I worried to learn from many strategic themes that focuse me in my main goal, I paid attention to learn from multiple cultural themes since I am a child at school and autodidacticly; and, decoration, modals and appropiate dressing for the occassion I consider to be an important part which I learn by my self. See as a model, dress as a model and have intellectual knowledge; of course the exquisity of the most fine taste, car, big house... My point is, I defined my necessities and goals; and, I take my decisions based in them.

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Oct 14 2011:
Perhaps interactions or associations, with other things that we have some kind of strong emotion for tends to influence our view of a something, but you can consciously try to oppose that influence, so that you are trying to evaluate strictly on the merit of the thing itself? And so it could vary on how much you consciously change initial feelings, and how much you don't?

Could that resolve both points of view, and incorporate them together?

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Oct 13 2011:
The beauty is the shine of true. The beauty is a whole sensitive perception that is perceibed with the whole body and senses (minimum 11 senses), and is like a mirror to see the reflectons from the eternity. Beauty is more than experience this or that...is the primal state of astonishement and express by the ¡AH! reaction when something is breathtaking (AISTOU in ancient greek ) and this becomes in aesthetics (the same word) meaning without air or holding the breath. Beauty is true (VERITAS). philosophically is the experience to be alive and awake. From the beuty experience we can go directly to feel the "inspiration" (air that becomes fire in greek) that is the main job from the Muses.

Ah...the eleven senses: Sight, Hear, Smell, Taste, Touch, Motion, Space, Time, Humor, Love and common sense. (Really there are 64 senses, but in the cotidian behavior we use this eleven senses)

Oct 13 2011:
Andrea we have all the senses to be delighted by beauty. Beauty is not a psychological experience. Is an approach to the mistery. So we can said a lot about in the non-sense of phsycological sofismas, but not theories (TEOS...thing from God). Beauty is a perception that reclames silence and concentration.

Oct 13 2011:
Jaime, this is a very interesting comment, and I quite appreciate it. The outline of what beauty is given by you resonates. I do have a question though. I've never before been talked to of senses beyond the typical 5, taste, smell, touch, hear, sight. Could you say more about these?
Thank you,
Isaac

Oct 12 2011:
Understanding about how human brain works changed the perception I had about "God's existence and other absolute truths that I thought existed"
:-). In a way, I was captivated in those perceptions, and having knowledge or understanding that "I" shape those percemtions with elements around me freed me. Letting it go of those concepts around me is still not entirely easy for me at times, but those traditional concepts are no longer limiting my choices which are hugely impacting in all aspects of my current decisions.

I think that similar change is happening to a lot of people due to the fact that access to knowledge is ever been easy, and that's when I do realize how powerful knowledge is and can be and how we are lucky compared to people who lived with those "dead knowledge" in the past.

Oct 13 2011:
Hello Jeong-Lan. I have a question, if it is alright to ask. Before asking though, I'd say that I do believe in the existence of God, or a God, and I also love science and knowledge, and seek it out, and generally have little trouble reconciling the concepts from both. This I suppose leads to my question. While I can understand how greater knowledge can upset beliefs that are religious in nature, by showing them to be inaccurate, I don't know or understand how greater knowledge affects the more fundamental absolute truths, such as whether or not God exists. Those seem to be beyond the scope, at least at present, of any kind of science, or empirical evidence. So how did greater understanding affect and alter your perceptions? (Besides the particulars of this question, which I find fascinating to ask about, I do also find just general, large shifts in thinking to be quite interesting to look at, in terms of how and why they happen.)
Thank you for you comment!
Isaac

Oct 12 2011:
Re commercials, I suspect that one of the characteristics of beauty is scarcity, and over exposure reduces that scarcity. For example, there is a folksong which I first heard sung by someone with an excellent voice, after we had kayaked into a remote island cave with tremendous acoustics. I found the song hauntingly beautiful. Yet friends with similar musical tastes regarded it and pretty commonplace simply because they knew it as the sound track to a beer commercial. Not being a TV watcher it didn't have that connotation for me. Several people admitted that they had previously liked the song but the commercial usage, or possibly over usage, had tainted their perception.

I suspect that such a taint is difficult to reverse. In a parallel vein, Burberry lost its upmarket image through overexposure, adoption by C-list celebrities and the abundance of cheap fakes. It has taken it years to struggle back, and has had to look at a different target audience to achieve that.

As regards my own attitude to advertising, show me an ad with a beautiful picture or great music and I may make the effort to find out where the picture was taken, or what the music is, but it doesn't make me want to remember the product. I might remember a brand name as being a source of content I enjoy, but it doesn't incline me to try the product. Red Bull is a case in point. I've never drunk oit but I love some of their extreme sports videos, particularly those taken in environments I consider beautiful. Show me an all-singing, all dancing website for a product, with beautiful pictures and clever design, and it will turn me off straight away. To me the act of purchasing is utilitarian and I want the facts so I can get it over and done with as quickly as possible. So if I'm amenable to any sort of advertising it has to be very fact based. And it has to be something I have chosen to look for, not something pushed at me.

If I was typical the entire marketing profession would be out of a job.

Oct 13 2011:
If you were typical the marketing profession might be out of a job, but the world could very well be a better place. Thank you for this comment, and for having a very sensical way of acquiring things.

Oct 12 2011:
"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"
For me, philosophy make things beautiful. One thing may be such an apple of my eyes, and doesn't have to make the same value of impression to others, and vice versa; And THIS make our world beautiful, the diversity of opinions.

Oct 12 2011:
Great topic. I have often though about this as I find myself appreciating the beauty of 'things' in quite a inconsistent manner. Confusing. I think that I have the reason for this though, and that is to do with my own personal beliefs and prejudices. I find great beauty in the dichotomy of emotions given off by different people. I used to love playing poker, and found my oppositions emotional roller-coaster ride fascinating.

Krishnamurti wrote about this topic in 'Awakening of Intelligence' and he posited that true beauty was only ever found in by viewing something or somebody for the very first time. Because he believed that each and every time after the first glance had taken place was corrupted by the previous view. Then that was corrupted by the last etc. What he was saying was that experience and knowledge corrupts your perception of beauty. Therefore, viewing a child's sketch for the first time and believing it to be beautiful (without the extra knowledge about her mortality) is the only true response. The following responses are tainted by the world and therefore not reliable emotions.