Perhaps I have grown accustomed to Summerlander's antics and the way he talks down to others who don't view things his way. I let it roll of my back, but I can see how you have every right to be annoyed. And if you have a good comeback that puts him in his place, I'm all for that!

I feel exactly the same way haha. I almost posted something similar but I couldn't word it right! And I don't even really agree with him and I can say this so I'd say I'm being objective and honest enough.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

I think a lot of us are tired of being talked down to and honestly I don't even bother reading the dissertations any more. Most of them could be edited down to around 3 or 4 sentences max. Those who feel they are being talked down to, insulted, etc. should complain to the moderator as I have done.

On the subject: While I'm interested in Astral Projection, it isn't science at this point because so far it has not been demonstrated by reproducible experiments and it does not have a theory to accompany the experimental evidence. So as far as the science goes, that is really ALL that needs to said. I am interested in setting up my own experiments, but not to further science, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

Suit yourself, lucid. Let us know when you have proof that astral projection is real. As for your dislike of science,...well, perhaps this forum is not for you.

Good luck with your experiments, though!

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Summerlander wrote:As for your dislike of science,...well, perhaps this forum is not for you.

Another one of your typical mischaracterizations. Nowhere in my post did I indicate ANY dislike for science. So I have to correct you. Please get your facts straight before posting.

And by the way, as far as I know, I was the first person to suggest this forum be added in the first place.

My post can be found in the suggestion box dated Jul 8 2013 along with Rebecca's approval.

This is the problem of only saying Lucid only as a name, that comment wasnt even directed at you it was directed at me haha

[ Post made via iPhone ]

And he's pretty much right, although it's not completely a dislike for science.Because I mean lets face it, science is great. It has to a lot of answers and has helped us a lot, I used to be more of a man of science myself actually.

The problem is, science dosnt deserve all my faith anymore. I'm not gonna doubt something I personally believe in just because science can't prove it. Because I fully believe science may even prove it someday, so just because science can't prove it isn't enough for me. So I suppose summer lander is right maybe this section of the forum isn't for me.

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

I wrote my own 'dissertation', but it's my argument to Summerlander to prove that there is at least a shadow of a doubt and we can't close the case on this just yet. And as I write in the end, I don't mind if my argument gets torn to shreds. I like these talks.

My hypothesis is that Astral Projection is just another form of lucid dream. But I still have 1% doubt and I want to try and use science to explain it. I am not that well informed, but bare with me, and I am just banging out ideas, so read the whole thing before dwelling on any specifics.

I think I may have an argument to uphold my agnostic (wishy-washy) view on this subject. Perhaps it is not such a weak one after all. However, I feel I need a PHD to truly be well informed, and make a powerful case, but that could take a while. It is still my hypothesis that Astral Projection is just another form of a lucid dream with a different name no matter how real it seems and how life-like the people you meet. But there is still a shadow of a doubt, and I want to explain why.

I did a little bit of research, (bare with me, I am no physicist), but there is a debate about whether atoms are particles or waves. What if they really are just waves? (Our view of reality gets turned on it's head sometimes, so I must say it is a possibility, so for the case of this argument I will imagine they are.) After all, without waves, we would not perceive anything at all. Waves give us information for our brains to decode and construct our version of reality. Maybe solid objects aren't as solid as we think they are. We can't pass our fingers through solids because our bodies are composed of 'solid' waves too. Perhaps EVERYTHING is a wave, not just sound and light, but matter too. But consciousness and perception is different (brain waves) than our physical, solid, body waves, so our reality and perception of it goes beyond 'physical' matter and what our bodies are limited to.

Waves come in many forms, and another biggie, that is all around us, are electro-magnetic waves. Visible light is one of them, and is a big part of our reality. (Not blind people, but even they detect other waves, like compression waves (sound), and matter (if it is a wave)). For me, being a person of sight, seeing is believing, and is a big part of my brain's construct of my reality as I know it. Other animals like a Bumble Bee can perceive ultra-violet. That's just another light wave on the border of perceivable light waves, that we humans have become so accustomed to detecting with the organ we call eyes, that to see anything else would be abnormal. If you were a human with a mutated gene with a different pair of eyes, you could perceive ultra-violet too. There is a very fine line between the waves out there, and what we actually perceive. If you go beyond the ultra-violet, perhaps there are other realities existing on different wavelengths, (and just as 'solid'), and we are not familiar with them, using our 'normal' human perception.

Is it possible to detect and translate these other waves with our brain without the need to use our eyes and could it happen in altered states of consciousness and perception? It may be possible since other waves like radio waves for example in the spectrum pass through our physical bodies. It may be possible that some of these waves (perhaps some even unknown to use as of yet) influence our brains. Our brains' thoughts are electrical currents, so who knows how these other electro-magnetic waves may influence it. The same way they affect other electrical and magnetic fields outside our body they may influence our actual brains and in turn our thoughts and perception. Our brains are engineered to create a working reality from simple waves we perceive when awake. That's what it does best, so maybe they do the same thing when asleep, and in a different brain wave pattern, like the Theta wave, they translate whatever it can find and since it is not coming from our eyes, ears, or other senses, it comes from somewhere else. External waves that bounce all around us, but we never notice when awake, but our 'thinking machine' picks up on them without that 'waking noise' that we detect when awake.

What can appear as just a wave that has no influence on waking-perception-reality, may be a solid object in a different level of reality that exists in a different band width of electro-magneticism, and an altered state of perception from our bandwidth may be able to 'tune in' to the others. Hence, a different 'reality' may exist, and perhaps even possible to perceive with the human brain. ( I put it in quotes because when I think about this too much, I don't know how to define 'reality' anymore ).

The best way to prove it is to use a machine. And since that hasn't been done yet, and I must say, I have never had an astral projection (as I have defined it earlier), there is only 1% of me that thinks it is possible, but I don't feel like I have a weak argument for that 1% doubt. It's hard to prove since there are no quotes from great thinkers to support me. None that I know of anyway.

I admit I am using a lot of 'what if' scenarios, but scientific break-throughs usually start that way. I don't mind feed back from Summerlander no matter how you choose to word it. I am just talking off the cuff, unrehearsed, and have similar conversations with people face to face. When we speak on a forum like this, I feel like I need to word it just right because it's typed and becomes recorded for all to see, and I can't clarify it right away, but when I speak in real time, I don't care if I don't get it right the first time. So even I don't take everything I said too seriously. I like talks like this!

Rip my argument to shreds so I can rebuild it! Normally they get torn down halfway through, so I am use to that.

HAGART wrote:I wrote my own 'dissertation', but it's my argument to Summerlander to prove that there is at least a shadow of a doubt and we can't close the case on this just yet. And as I write in the end, I don't mind if my argument gets torn to shreds. I like these talks.

My hypothesis is that Astral Projection is just another form of lucid dream. But I still have 1% doubt and I want to try and use science to explain it. I am not that well informed, but bare with me, and I am just banging out ideas, so read the whole thing before dwelling on any specifics.

I think I may have an argument to uphold my agnostic (wishy-washy) view on this subject. Perhaps it is not such a weak one after all. However, I feel I need a PHD to truly be well informed, and make a powerful case, but that could take a while. It is still my hypothesis that Astral Projection is just another form of a lucid dream with a different name no matter how real it seems and how life-like the people you meet. But there is still a shadow of a doubt, and I want to explain why.

I did a little bit of research, (bare with me, I am no physicist), but there is a debate about whether atoms are particles or waves. What if they really are just waves? (Our view of reality gets turned on it's head sometimes, so I must say it is a possibility, so for the case of this argument I will imagine they are.) After all, without waves, we would not perceive anything at all. Waves give us information for our brains to decode and construct our version of reality. Maybe solid objects aren't as solid as we think they are. We can't pass our fingers through solids because our bodies are composed of 'solid' waves too. Perhaps EVERYTHING is a wave, not just sound and light, but matter too. But consciousness and perception is different (brain waves) than our physical, solid, body waves, so our reality and perception of it goes beyond 'physical' matter and what our bodies are limited to.

Waves come in many forms, and another biggie, that is all around us, are electro-magnetic waves. Visible light is one of them, and is a big part of our reality. (Not blind people, but even they detect other waves, like compression waves (sound), and matter (if it is a wave)). For me, being a person of sight, seeing is believing, and is a big part of my brain's construct of my reality as I know it. Other animals like a Bumble Bee can perceive ultra-violet. That's just another light wave on the border of perceivable light waves, that we humans have become so accustomed to detecting with the organ we call eyes, that to see anything else would be abnormal. If you were a human with a mutated gene with a different pair of eyes, you could perceive ultra-violet too. There is a very fine line between the waves out there, and what we actually perceive. If you go beyond the ultra-violet, perhaps there are other realities existing on different wavelengths, (and just as 'solid'), and we are not familiar with them, using our 'normal' human perception.

Is it possible to detect and translate these other waves with our brain without the need to use our eyes and could it happen in altered states of consciousness and perception? It may be possible since other waves like radio waves for example in the spectrum pass through our physical bodies. It may be possible that some of these waves (perhaps some even unknown to use as of yet) influence our brains. Our brains' thoughts are electrical currents, so who knows how these other electro-magnetic waves may influence it. The same way they affect other electrical and magnetic fields outside our body they may influence our actual brains and in turn our thoughts and perception. Our brains are engineered to create a working reality from simple waves we perceive when awake. That's what it does best, so maybe they do the same thing when asleep, and in a different brain wave pattern, like the Theta wave, they translate whatever it can find and since it is not coming from our eyes, ears, or other senses, it comes from somewhere else. External waves that bounce all around us, but we never notice when awake, but our 'thinking machine' picks up on them without that 'waking noise' that we detect when awake.

What can appear as just a wave that has no influence on waking-perception-reality, may be a solid object in a different level of reality that exists in a different band width of electro-magneticism, and an altered state of perception from our bandwidth may be able to 'tune in' to the others. Hence, a different 'reality' may exist, and perhaps even possible to perceive with the human brain. ( I put it in quotes because when I think about this too much, I don't know how to define 'reality' anymore ).

The best way to prove it is to use a machine. And since that hasn't been done yet, and I must say, I have never had an astral projection (as I have defined it earlier), there is only 1% of me that thinks it is possible, but I don't feel like I have a weak argument for that 1% doubt. It's hard to prove since there are no quotes from great thinkers to support me. None that I know of anyway.

I admit I am using a lot of 'what if' scenarios, but scientific break-throughs usually start that way. I don't mind feed back from Summerlander no matter how you choose to word it. I am just talking off the cuff, unrehearsed, and have similar conversations with people face to face. When we speak on a forum like this, I feel like I need to word it just right because it's typed and becomes recorded for all to see, and I can't clarify it right away, but when I speak in real time, I don't care if I don't get it right the first time. So even I don't take everything I said too seriously. I like talks like this!

Rip my argument to shreds so I can rebuild it! Normally they get torn down halfway through, so I am use to that.

Quite a bit to think about there. I'll have to digest it and comment after.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

Hi, Hagart! I'm not here to rip people's posts to shreds. I'm also no physicist either (although I have read a lot of material by Stephen Hawking, Brian Cox, Lawrence Krauss and Feynman).

It's true that on microscopic scales matter can be both wave and particle and classical common sense goes out the window. We need a quantum theory of gravity. You may like to read jim Baggot's "A Quantum Story" to see how science arrived at such conclusions and how scientists wrestled with quantum physics.

I will keep this short so we don't digress from the astral projection topic again. Science does not have all the answers and the brain is indeed a poor tool with which we perceive reality (although technology ay help us on this respect).

I've got nothing against people leaving the door open to astral projection. I just find the idea highly improbable and tend not to jump the gun about things in nature that we can't yet explain.

As far as I can tell, there is only dream consciousness which people interpret in different ways.

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."