So it's not a case of if im guessing or not, since I haven't stated my position, not yet anyway, but have asked for yours. It's a case of you actually responding to a post, which once again your failing to do.

I dread to think how you would perform in an actual face to face debate :/

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search. Sextus Empiricus

So it's not a case of if im guessing or not, since I haven't stated my position, not yet anyway, but have asked for yours. It's a case of you actually responding to a post, which once again your failing to do.

I dread to think how you would perform in an actual face to face debate :/

Better than you, no doubt. At this point in the discussion, you need to be stating what you think rather than asking others here to do the heavy lifting.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

I don't know, what constitutes a failure, all the various well known theories tend to address and make good points right?

A key aspect of Western ethical systems is that moral prescriptionsshould be universally applicable to all people who can understand them.Buddhism, though, is generally gradualist in approach, so while it hasethical norms which all should follow from a sense of sympathy withfellow beings (such as not killing living beings), others only apply to thosewho are ready for them, as their commitment to moral and spiritualtraining deepens. (Harvey, p. 51)

Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)

Inductive reasoning is only a problem when we forget that it is about probability and not about a uniformity principle. In all likelihood, the sun will rise tomorrow. Likewise, Tilt merely proposed you're likely to behave like he's observed you behaving in the past. From what I know of Tilt, he has strong obersvational powers and a fairly accurate track-record. It is in your power and your power only to provide a counterinductive example via your behavior and perform well--by his standards--in debate.Kindly,dL

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Samma wrote:So the answer to "Is then murder justified in Buddhism, if it saves lives?"

Would be it depends on the circumstance. What kind of murder. How many lives. And so on. Of course this is all in the speculative realm and perhaps best put aside...

Hitler and Stalin ...

Or to put it another way

Would you be violent, and possibly kill, a gang that was gang raping a woman if you had access to a gun. Or would you be mindful and remain in equanimity and let it continue to its conclusion?

I realise these aren't nice things to think about, but they seem to be important

I will be honest, I think I would shoot and possibly kill if faced with such a situation, even if I don't know the woman. Yet is this ethical in Buddhism? Would Buddha approve or disapprove?

It's too speculative to play situational ethics/"What Would the Buddha Do?" to be helpful and I'm struggling to see how it's on topic. Wouldn't it be more helpful to look at what the Buddha actually did in some ethically complex situations? For instance, look at his involvement among the monks of Kosambi and his intervention between Koliyan and Sakyan states. He seems to have been a peacemaker in these instances. On the other hand, his whole former clan (Sakyan) was killed in his presence after his peacemaking interventions failed (he was imperfect, afterall). The Sakyans had given a bride to a neighbouring king they thought was a Saykan noble but was in actuality a mere slave or some other kind of "lowlife." The Buddha refrained from interving twice, but on the third occassion, practiced equanimity, considering the dishonest actions of the Sakyans and the anger of the neighbouring king unstoppable by virtue of the karmic "strength" of both parties. Hence, he stood by and witnessed the total destruction of his former clan.See for instance: The End of the ShakyansAlso of interest: Getting the Message by ThanissaroKindly,dL

post removed, please regard the opening of my mouth as a momentary lapse of reason. As for your questions Dan

A) Suttas have been all I've been reading lately and I have always had a habit of copying literary styles from that which I have been reading. Call it archaic if you want, but it's only Venerable Bodhi's choice of words, and I would have pegged you a fan of his work...

B) Nibbling on your bait would not be of benefit to anyone. So I won't, and it bares bringing up that were anyone to ever achieve anything in this, nobody would believe him. In fact such a person would be regarded as a kook - So we reach a delicate catch 22 with regards the effacy of the practice whereupon the community is in dire need of proof, but any such notions would be taken with volumes of criticism disbelief and name calling. It's all very counter productive, but please don't take my words too seriously, I'm just musing

We want our ariyans anonymous, but we need to know the path is efficacious as concerns the end goal, and the only proof you're ever going to get is from A) personal experience (which my post advocated) and B) From some kind of declaration or inference from some other member of our community. But your average man hasn't achieved A and won't believe B - In fact he positively counts any such inference as proof that someone's either gone off the deep end or is vastly over estimating themselves and caught up in some form of egoism. A beautiful catch 22 worthy of a page in a Heller book imo.

I am sorry you took my post to be bombastic and arrogant when showing up arrogance was the intended point of it, but you have given me further pause for concern and I think I shall make this departure permanent.

All the best Dan

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"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta