If we had fought the Moffia, like we are the terrorists, would we bomb Chicago, Miami, Las Vegas, New york, Los Angeles, Alanta, Reno and New Jersey with phosphrous, cluster and depleted uranium bombs?

Would we just be 'collateral damage'?

Is killing 200,000-300,000 thousand innocent men, women, and children to get a few thousand world-wide terrorists, logical?

Is it logical to kill that many people, (not to mention 2400+ of our own) devastate whole cities and villages, sell off their country to US multi-nationals, install a pupet government, and destroy their infrastructure to 'bring democracy, as GOD's gift to them.

Is it logical to torture innocent people, to get them to tell you, what you want them to say. Knowing that most will tell you, anything you want to hear, to make the torture stop. Innocent people, in case they might 'make your case'?

Is it logical to believe that the US wants them to thank us for nightly raids that bring death and /or imprisonment and torture to thousands of innocents? For destroying their lives? For killing their women and children?

Logical if you believe that imperialist America is another copy of imperialist Rome. Where's Brutus when you need him? No, we need a dozen gross' of Brutus' to deal with this group of murderers.

Hopefully the people will stand up and make Bush and his entourage accountable on voting day this Gubernatorial. Don't forget what they've done to America's credibility in the world, or the world may make America accountable for what it's becoming.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

My post was to see why....from a LOGICAL standpoint......so many are accepting using the military to fight terror. I understand hitting training camps. I don't see the logic of the rest of this.

Women are supposed to be the gatherers, seeing the over all view. Relying on 'intuition' to help.
Men on the other hand are supposed to be the 'logical ones', hunters, problem solvers. Zeroing in on the problem, like the hunter. With a one track mind.

So tell me, what logic tells them that you fight terrorism with WMDs and military?

In an indirect way, I think that you have answered your own question. First of all we have been taught certain "Facts"- like men are more logical than women Etc. This may be false. Women are more logical than men, but once again, mans ideals of violence and using strength over reason are shown to be the problem. Because men are physically stronger, they can force their way of seeing the world and solving its problems on everyone. It seems natural that violence is the only way to solve problems, and over the centuries of male domination of the environment and the sexes it has become the assumed fact. Ergo, it fits into their plan and empowers them to think for everyone. This is male logic and it seems to be dominant- but that doesn't make it right.

We live with assumptions that even women are being programmed to believe. Since women have no voice of their own anymore, they must learn to fit into the male viewpoint or be ignored. Such is the way of the warrior/hunter that feels his job is much more dangerous, hard working and important than the tasks designated to women- bringing up children keeping house, serving the masters needs and the duties of keeping the family together while the man provides food and security. History shows us that it wasn't always this way, that womens roles have changed from when they worked, fought and died side by side with men. Civilization, modernity and its new demands have brought on these changes.

Killing innocent men, women and children is the logic of the male programmed/oriented psyche of competition for resources and supreme control of his mate/land/castle/country/world. This is what happens when we lose sense of purpose and meaning in our existence. Too many lies, bribes, threats and promises have given us a world without logic and reason. We all had mothers, even the Hitlers and Ghandi's, but we have no qualms about mass murder and genocide of others- men, women and children, if it means profit and theft of resources. This is the old way of building strength and superiority. Men have used this since whenever, to gain their advantage. It is the formula for survival. Unfortunately, now that we have reached the age of total destruction of the world, we are stuck with this logic. This is our real danger- that the things we assumed would be inevitabilities are now become the way we can end our species.

When women finally rise up to assert their real logic upon the world of man and change the way we think and operate, is a day we should all work towards. It will save the planet. After all Eve doesn't stand for Woman- It stands for LIFE.

This is what's wrong with the male psyche- it can never forgive the transgressions that have been heaped upon it, except by revenge. And so the circle is begun and is never completed until everyone is dead. We need women to continue to provide life so that male logic can continue the killing. When women finally refuse to be participants and assert their logic on men, then the world will end this cycle of male violence/ death logic. Of course, men will then force women to have babies and the cycle of violence will finally become obvious to women, that they are merely tools of this cycle and suffer through the use of lateral violence upon them. They are the source of life, so they must provide for deaths sake.

It's not logical to kill their women and children and expect the men to accept it as just the way things are.

Here is a test to see how programmed you have become by our societies views and assertions on gender and personality issues.

1. T F ... The insensitivities of men are often in the areas of loving, vulnerability, and grief.

2. T F ... The insensitivities of women are often in the areas of sexuality, competitiveness and anger.

3. T F ... We would have a happier society if the words "masculine" and "feminine" were never used. Emotions and human character traits are human, not the sole province of one gender.

4. T F ... Most women have yet to fully resolve the housework traumas inflicted upon them by their mothers. Until they do, most will continue to judge their spouses harshly.

6. T F ... The average woman speaks twice as many words as the average man and has done so from the time she was a two-year-old

7. T F ... Men are more intuitive than women.

8. T F ... Psychology test with 1-year-old toddlers: Put Mom behind a clear plastic screen and wait for first sign of toddler distress. Crying much more often evidenced by girls. Hitting the plastic screen much more often evidenced by boys.

9. T F ... Women are more logical than men.

10. T F ... The average man is right-brained, the average woman left-brained.

Most of the rest of the questions on this quiz are concerned with an IDEAL society with no sexism, no racism, no homophobia, perfect parenting etc. (But we would have the SAME genes as we do now.)

11. T F ... In the above ideal society, little girls and boys would play equally often with toy trucks.

12. T F ... In the above ideal society, men and women would NOT be equally interested in right and left-brain activities.

13. T F ... In the above ideal society, most job categories would have about 50-50 male-female representation.

14. T F ... In the above ideal society, jobs would be given to the most qualified applicant, male or female.

15. T F ... In the above ideal society, the average man and the average woman would have equal interest in sex.

16. T F ... In the above ideal society, the average man would do more housework than he does now.

17. T F ... In the above ideal society, men and women would cry about the same amounts.

18. T F ... In the above ideal society, women and men would have unequal interests in such activities as shopping and sports.

19. T F ... In the above ideal society, women and men would get angry equally often.

20. T F ... In the above ideal society, men's attitudes towards sex would still be significantly different from the attitudes of women.

21. T F ... In the above ideal society, most characteristics that we now call "masculine" and "feminine" would be displayed equally often by women and men.

22. T F ... In today's society real men often display "feminine" characteristics and real women often display "masculine" characteristics. This is healthy.

Write down your answers and PM me if you wish, or present them here. I'll give you the answers on a PM or place them here. If I do, then all who answer will have questions for me that should be taken to the test manufacturer, and some other ideas as well. You can research it like I did and I can give you more leads to the psychology that is at work here, and take it from there. Then come back and give more ideas. Lots of work and reading to do, so get busy.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

It's hard for me, because I like the differences between men and women. I do not like muy macho men or wimpy ones. I do not like crybaby women or very masculine ones. Should read...I wouldn't want to be married to one. I have some friends of all kinds.

I think that, human beings, should be good at being what they are. Men and women and long live the differences.

My husband cries sometimes, sad movies, extreme pride of grandchildren, deaths, and whenever he feels really sad. I like that about him.

He keeps up the cars. the garbage, bringing in the wood, weed eating, doctoring the dogs, and some help in the house. I absolutely do not mind doing the house. He worked faithfully at his job for 30 years, I worked outside the home when and where I wanted, not tied to being the 'provider'. I am a dreamer, and he is willing to work with me, to accomplish them (landscaping, home remodling, raising horses etc.)

He is willing to go shopping with me, however, I didn't expect him to enjoy it like I did, ( I'm not a shopper anymore, not for years). I don't like sports, so we have two TVs.

We both think this war is crazy, that bushco and his corporate neo-cons are trying to exact a military coup on this country and the world.

So I have answered your questions, as best as I could.

4,7,9,12,20,21, I considered false. Some , like 16, depends on your life style. We have always lived in the country and the chores are mostly well defined. However, I hauled hay, cleaned stalls, doctored horses, did yard work etc. When I was not working outside the home and he was at work. He helped with the house when we were both working. I never fixed cars and he almost never cooked (except BBQs), mopped, or Ironed.

I guess I would say, each couple has to work out, their needs and make it work for them. I don't think that tests or books make good parents or people, Men or women.

I think that the way we have been raised does make a difference in the way we accept what is happening with our country. Killing is accepted from the time we are tiny, defining 'the bad guys' on preconcieved notions, greed is taunted as success, every man for himself, self and family, is all important. I did it and if others weren't so lazy they could do it too, mentality. The homeless don't want homes, the jobless don't want to work, and the working poor could find better jobs.

I still don't understand the original question. Men and women both, think that the war in Iraq is necessary to combat terrorism.

It is illogical and obviously does not work. Just as torture does not work and yet both men and women accept torturing 'SUSPECTED' terrorists. WHY??

It is wonderful to talk to you about things, for your experiences have helped shape the person you are, and from what you have said about you and your understanding sensitive husband, you have lived a loving caring, sharing life. It is one that unfortunately we must live that somehow, no matter how good it is, is infected with the problems of society and what it makes us think and believe, without our being aware of its impact on us or those around us. I have been involved with a lot of courses in sociology and human behavior, as well as mass media manipulation and unfortunately none of us are immune to its impact.

There is one DEFINITIVE test for you to take to find out if you are a real man or a real woman. This test has greater than 98% accuracy. Here it is:
Definitive TestReal Man - Real Woman Test:
Take down your pants and look.

Seriously though I was looking at your answers and loved what you said about your husband. Masculine/ feminine- Who cares- I do it my way, is what we should all adhere to. NOT worrying about feminine and masculine characteristics is the HAPPIEST way to live. The truth is that the question about being a real man/woman is not the quiz question we really want answered. The real questions most of us have are: What is normal? What is average? What behaviors are caused by this not-so-sane society? What is inherent vs what is learned? Are MY behaviors and inclinations OK? You didn't let gender interfere with what you thought was normal and seemed to feel normal with whatever role you took on. Same with your husband. I can tell you had a warm satisfying relationship that appreciated what each person did for themselves and each other. Yours was a rare wonderful sharing/ caring life. This is how we should live our lives.

Perhaps this is why you find it so difficult to see what our society does to each other and our roles in the big picture. The way violence and abuse is transferred on our fellow man is of course hard to fathom, but it is what I call lateral violence. Lateral violence occurs when oppressed groups/individuals internalize feelings or anger and rage, and display those feelings through gossip, jealousy, putdowns and blaming. Taken to its extremes, the oppressed when put in the position of the oppressor and when given approval of their superiors or authority, will perform acts of abuse that they would otherwise never perform. It can easily explain why we become soldiers and why Hitler’s henchmen at Auschwitz all pleaded that they were only following orders as their defense. Lyndie England pleaded no different, and we all know about the experiments in the 60's where fake shocks were administered by average citizens under the watchful eyes of authority to discipline unseen test subjects, much to the dismay or the acting participants and the screams of their victims. Of course the victims were not really hurt, but merely acting, but on the approval of authority, the average citizens protest against doing it was followed by another shock, sometimes after being told to increase the voltage, and the increased agonizing screams. Beware of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

How we are raised is important but our group instincts and herding make us do things that are acceptable to the masses. We pattern each other without authority as we learn to be the eyes, ears and conscience of the state. We are forced and conditioned to obey and respect authority, despite our better sense of morality. We are the victims of a way of thinking. Like you said the homeless don't want a home- jobless don't want to work- working poor can find a better job etc. Truth is we need those lower down to build ourselves up over those who are less fortunate, mentally challenged, handicapped, sexual preference, race/religion, gender etc.

The original question is to understand why we are in this mess with Iraq. Is it merely to combat terrorism? Our leaders are on a crusade to destroy and dominate and whatever excuse achieves that end is all that matters. If Bush were religious then he would be right in drawing us closer to the edge of reality by following the dictates of the biblical Armageddon scenario. Push the envelope to its extreme- and come what may, the savior is promised to return. If it's sooner than later so be it. It’s more likely that fear and manipulation are being used to maintain power over the world through manipulation and ownership of resources, which is as old as civilization itself. That we are participants and provide the manpower for this is because deep down we know that they are authority and we must capitulate to this force no matter where it appears in our lives. So when you see our women and men as soldiers, performing the acts of torture and murder for our leaders, then you see the micro of the disease that is our oppression. The Macro of their will is of course the slaughter of the "Other" in the supreme sacrifice of all out war.

Why? Because we are obedient to supreme authority. We will go to our knees before it rather than die because of it. We've been convinced that it is a question of them or us and that we are better and right.

This is why I trust neither our leaders or religions, until they can prove they deserve my obedience, without their threats or bribes. I know they are merely oppressors to the oppressed and it isjust their need for power and position that makes them so brave. If they were on the other side of the equation, they'd be just as fear filled as me. But knowing this gives me the courage to stand up to them, for all they have on me is their ability to control the degree of pain I suffer. If I accept them I am free, but if I reject them, I am truly free, even if it costs my life. This is the cost of freedom and why they hurt, maim and torture- To break you to your essence, to master your will. When subjected to this kind of superiority, it takes a martyrs stance to resist, and of course our will to live is overwhelming. This is what they know about us, and whether you are taking their orders or bending to authority we are all just dogs to their will to power. They have us where they want us and we don't have the guts to stand up to them and say "NO, we won't take it anymore. We won't do what you want". So when they tell us to do these things and we are exposed to their authority, there is nothing we can do but give in or die. So the world goes on and we just play the part of being good and obey what they say, or pay the price for freedom. This is why we do what we do, because there isn't any other way to play the hand that's dealt to us.

It's the repeating themes that have surfaced forever, about how we maintain courage and integrity in a world of fear and oppression and how we adhere to a relationship with the self and others while being threatened by internal and external violence- the risks involved with intimacy and trust, while trying to find a safe place within and defend it from evil, while holding on to our morals and values as human beings. Their objective is to make us their dogs, to be used for good or evil, or to be beaten into submission, our spirits broken to their mastery. Either way they get what they want from us- our obedience and servitude at the price of our freedom. This is the price of obedience to authority, and has nothing to do with freedom outside of survival.

Such are the roles we play in this lifetime- which side of the whip do you wish to be on?

The answers to the quiz are - the first part is all true and the second part is- all odd #'s are false- 11-21. Shows how we are conditioned to think. But then again the second part is a hypothetical ideal situation that involves a different world than we're living in, so that makes it tougher to rationalize. I would be happy to discuss your answers to the second part with you and give my side of it to you. Remember to link the personal to the political- What works for me may not be how it is for everyone.

I noticed you said # 4,7+9 were false. The question asked Most women, not just you, in #4,- Men are more intuitive in #7 but this is only when they understand that they have no argument for womens logic and ignore them or use violence or anger to defeat them, so it could be true sometimes. Women use their words more to arrive at an intuitive state through their logical approach - and #9 being- women are more logical, which is true. They are just told that they aren't to keep them in their place. Sometimes women don't share fully how they arrived at their conclusion, all the steps, so men become defensive of their way of thinking. Women are rarely illogical, just confused by procedures in a male world.

Remember this is generally, perhaps not in your relationship. Some men have grown beyond their teaching and so have left their sexist, racist, gender specific biases behind and grown. I have a feeling from what you wrote that your mate has been most loving and understanding, so you have had a fortunate relationship. I did notice that he didn't really participate in helping with clean up and house chores, but such was the way roles were stereotyped in the past, so this is tough to break and probably better that you accepted that role than an unhappy relationship. Kudos for womens strength and understanding. You really are the stronger sex. This is why we need women to take over and run the world.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

I fear that you have fallen into your own trap. I still think that the word..."more" changes the answers.

My daughter is a 'new wave' woman, only when it suits her. She does none of the 'mans' work. However, after working 8 hours a day in 100 degree heat in a blacksmith shop, her husband was expected to change diapers and feed the babies. They, also, have horses, her 'job' is never to haul hay etc., but his never stops. They now both work full time, and she does most of the 'women's jobs', but still leaves all of the heavy work and some house chores to him.

I do not feel that logic belongs to either sex, nor does intuition, nor do I believe that women have been traumatized by housework.

I think, the difference in lifestyles, has mixed the roles of men and women. I don't believe that it is better or worse now. Just different.
I believe that selfishness is the root of the problem. Men equally as guilty, as are women. Egotism is a two way street. Until we return to the 'GOLDEN RULE', we have permission to behave in any way that gets us what we think we want, need, or desire.

Wish I could remember the name of the woman that originated this thought. She died last year.........

As for "More", the word is descriptive of the idea that men are more intuitive doesn't mean they are. In some situations they can be. What is important is that they wiil press their opinion as fact more often. Take getting lost as a classic example. He will drive around for hours trying to find something, certain of his directions, rather than stopping and asking someone. That sort of behaviour is verging into his intuition process. He is more certain of his intuition and memory than your logic of asking for directions, that he will find the place he wants to get to. The old hunter comes out.

You are stuck in the personal and not in the political. What is good for the people outweighs our personal views. If your daughters husband allows her to get away with making him work harder then it is his fault not hers. If he has to do these things, then he doesn't know how to approach the issue and ask for fairness. That is all socialism is structured for. Fairness. The home is a social institution and when men worked and women stayed home the rules were clear. Now that both adults must work to support the home, there must be a new social contract drawn up. Each participant must be willing to share in the duties. This is called reciprocity and is the basis of socialism. What socialism has done for me is to make me more aware of how we must give a little extra so that our society can succeed as a whole, instead of an idividuals greed based principles of the American democratic capitalist dreamworld.

The golden rule Is? To me I believe in the negative golden rule. "Do not unto others as you would not have done unto you". It makes more sense to not do things to people as opposed to doing things to people. Like don't kill them, not help them, don't ignore them etc. The negative golden rule is safer when applied with proper thought. The golden rule has been applied by people like Bush after 911. He did unto others what he thought they did unto him. Instead of thinking about it, he acted out of supposed justice while it was obviously revenge.

Bush was using his right side aggressive reptilian brain. He reacted as he saw fit, after his "New Pearl Harbour". Without using his words or internal dialogue, he swung into action. His option- Command and attack. No listening to reason for this man, he acted on his intuitions. The verbal, sorting, detail-oriented side of the brain is the left, whereas the spatial intuitive nonverbal side is the right. Who is more verbal, the average man or woman? By a wide margin, of course, the answer is the woman. She speaks twice as many words as the man and has done so even before the age of two. Boys and men are much more nonverbal, usually preferring physical spatial activities even as small toddlers. So the evidence is clear that women hang out more in their left brains, whereas men tend to hang out more in their right brains. If you say something he doesn't want to hear, he will not respond verbally, but spatially as he moves to the TV to watch hockey reruns. He senses your words are wrong for him, and his intuitive response is to move away. As a woman, on the other hand, you may have long debates in your head before you come to make a decision or take some action. Such internal thinking and debating are left brain activities. Women are seldom illogical. Spacey, sometimes irrational, but not illogical.

Men are not generally as comfortable on the verbal side of their brains as you are. When you say to them "let's talk," you are asking them to join you in an activity in which most men feel somewhat inferior to you. As soon as possible, many men therefore will opt out of talking to return to their preferred nonverbal spatial activities.

There is major confusion between the words intuition and creativity. Intuitive people are not necessarily creative, some just keep duplicating old ruts without much conscious left brain thinking. Creative people, on the other hand, manage successfully (though perhaps only temporarily) in the intuitive right brain.

Men and women typically think very differently. While there are, of course, millions of exceptions, women tend toward internal debates, good/ bad thinking and sorting behavior. Men's thinking typically has few words (i.e., what feels right usually causes the next action). Neither the typical male nor the typical female thinking pattern is right or wrong. Some women today are trying to change men's basic thinking pattern and vice-versa. They won't succeed. These patterns are strongly evident even in the earliest years of life. His actions were like a child who lashes out at any issue to solve a problem. His tissy fit temper tantrum has set the stage for revenge that can be enacted at any time in the future. Two-year-old girls are already verbally chattering away while two-year-old boys are more often just nonverbally pushing things and people around, uttering few words in the process.

911 was a turning point in history when America could have changed the direction the world was heading. If we had sensible logical leaders that could have seen it as a cry for help, a cry for understanding from the oppressed world, then America could have used its wealth and power to change the way history is made, and the will of man could have become the reason and rationality of mankind- to change the direction of hatred and oppression into a global plan for fairness and survival. But instead, once again we chose the childish way to solve problems. "Do unto others as they would do unto you." Except we have done it 1000 times worse. Such is the power and the glory of the kingdom of the righteous to wage their holy crusade on the unholy infidels.

Men due to their highly competitive nature, have a tendancy to force their opinion on other men and when it is strong enough the women will logically back down rather than push it. She will wait and plan her battles better, remembering the incident and playing it when the time is right. Men because of their competitive natures and need to be right and win, are more insistant that their side or viewpoint is the correct one. Too bad Laura Bush wasn't more assertive with George or she may have stopped him, and help prevent all the disasterous after affects of his rash actions, which have taken America to the problems of terror and torture and WMD threats that the people must live with for years, perhaps generations now.

Mens intuition and logic doesn't make them right. They are right because they dominate the sphere of influence at home and in the world. It is time we asked ourselves if this is for the best or is there a better way to be. A blend of male/female logic with equality probably would make for a better world, but this has to be implemented from when children are small and taught throughout life to the next generation.

Remember this is a new ideal generalisation. You may have a better situation so think about the bigger picture before you say, "well from my experiences within my situation, I believe that....", to the view outside the family dynamic. Linking the personal to the political. We need more female perspective in our political decision making. After all they are more intimately involved in the creation, preservation and concerns of life, than men are.

This test has a 98% accuracy, so you are close to these parameters. Well done.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

certain of his directions, rather than stopping and asking someone. That sort of behaviour is verging into his intuition process.

That doesn't seem like intuition, because there is no understanding or knowledge, just displaced 'pride'.

I agree with most of the rest of your last post.

I believe that the over view is:

While we have been taught at a very early age, for many centuries, certain differences, there are differences by nature. The same differences we see in animals.

Rape in primates, killing of chimpanzees by chimpanzees, killing of the young lions by the new 'king of the pride', waring for territory, homosexuality among dogs and other animals, submission of females to males, protection and caring for the young by the females, and so much more. In wild horses the older mare is the leader of the herd, the stallion brings up the rear and chases and herds the herd and fights off the challengers.

In the animal kingdom we have prey animals and preditors. Even in the prey animals, the stallions are the aggressors.

The abnormalities of mankind, are diviations, like torture, aquisition for greed and position, wars, not to protect, but to intimidate for personal wealth.

The human animal is a predator. It has been so, as far back as history goes. The change is, the means. Never before did man have the capacity to destroy the world. The question is, will they learn (be taught), that the alternative to peace is, destruction. To give up the deviations and return to the natural. Keeping the beneficial differences between the sexes and coming together, to form a 'more perfect union', utilizing, appreciating , and rewarding those differences.

So you see, it is, combining the personal and the overview.

I see the possibilities of the world being like my marriage. Not perfect, but a co-operation of needs, wants and dreams.

Division leads to conquest. We need us all, to come together, with our differences. We need the peacemakers, the warriors, the idealists, and the realists. The religious and the agnostics. If we fail, we could loose the world.