Not to be an alarmist, but did anyone besides me start to think that Andrew might actually be ...a bit off? Some of his posts, when skimmed en mass start to sound a little like actual delusions and/or hallucinations. It reads to me as if he actually hears "god" speaking to him. He clearly sees "signs", some literal even.

I've been taking a lot of psychology this semester so it could just be my overactive imagination too, I freely admit that. And I'm still on my first cup of coffee. IDK, it's just a sense I got skimming the thread.

Nope. Your analysis was good.I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw that.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

Not to be an alarmist, but did anyone besides me start to think that Andrew might actually be ...a bit off? Some of his posts, when skimmed en mass start to sound a little like actual delusions and/or hallucinations. It reads to me as if he actually hears "god" speaking to him. He clearly sees "signs", some literal even.

I've been taking a lot of psychology this semester so it could just be my overactive imagination too, I freely admit that. And I'm still on my first cup of coffee. IDK, it's just a sense I got skimming the thread.

Nope. Your analysis was good.I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw that.

It is interesting. A lot of Christians talk about "serving God." Andrew doesn't serve his god. His god serves him! Andrew calls the shots, and his god accommodates his whims, bails him out when he screws up, keeps him from being bored during joy rides in the car, picks up tabs for restaurant deadbeats who have no means to pay the bill, fixes his car for him, and generally getting him out of messes.

Andrew's god is a sort of all-purpose fairy god father, who caters to his whims and cleans up his messes. Ironically, this god is a very very different god from the handsome, helpless, weepy lord, who took the Ecuadorian girl on a tour of the afterlife. And Andrew is the one who posted that video. Hard to believe they are even part of the same religion, honestly.

I left the comment:1.This was not reported on TV or in the newspapers. 2. There are no names given.3. There was no record of the actual child4. There are 7 million blind people in the USA - how many has he cured?5. The miracle can be reproduced by putting pig-fat on the eyes.and then wiping it off.

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The guy is a fraud. Anyone who believes him is gullible.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

By the time I finished using his phone (and didn't get through to anyone) he had already fixed the tire completely and when I looked at his phone the header on it was this "praise God". Who knows that might have been an angel since I know that they were all around me and following me home because I saw them and could feel them all around me.

Vastly more plausible explanation: He was a nice person who saw your car on the side of the road, and he decided to help you. As for the header on his phone, all that indicates is that he happened to be a believer.

God works through His creation, through people.. He can very well overwrite the laws of nature, the laws that we know so well from school, tv and library, but can you tell how many of us will believe in Him if He will do that?

God works through His creation, through people.. He can very well overwrite the laws of nature, the laws that we know so well from school, tv and library, but can you tell how many of us will believe in Him if He will do that?

How do you distinguish between a natural law, that was originally configured by God, and a divine intervention that suspends/over-rides a natural law?

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If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

wtf does that even mean? Does he possess people and make them do things they would not have done otherwise? Does he give them extra intelligence, strength or decision making powers to make sure they do what he wants? Is this not overriding their free will? Exactly what do you mean?

By the time I finished using his phone (and didn't get through to anyone) he had already fixed the tire completely and when I looked at his phone the header on it was this "praise God". Who knows that might have been an angel since I know that they were all around me and following me home because I saw them and could feel them all around me.

Vastly more plausible explanation: He was a nice person who saw your car on the side of the road, and he decided to help you. As for the header on his phone, all that indicates is that he happened to be a believer.

God works through His creation, through people.. He can very well overwrite the laws of nature, the laws that we know so well from school, tv and library, but can you tell how many of us will believe in Him if He will do that?

Not too many, considering how god's chosen people in the bible saw miracles first hand-- and still went right back to misbehaving and worshipping idols as soon as god turned his holy back.

Even if that were true, your god is apparently unable to do anything that humans can't do. I predict that it will be mortal humans, not gods, who first heal an amputee... And I also predict that at least one believer will try to give the credit to his or her god, instead of to the doctors and geneticists and other professionals who did years and years of hard work.

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He can very well overwrite the laws of nature, the laws that we know so well from school, tv and library, but can you tell how many of us will believe in Him if He will do that?

Let's find out, shall we? Do you know of any instances in which the laws of nature were actually overwritten? Once we've confirmed one such incident, we can start surveying believers. Until then, it's a total waste of your time and ours to play that kind of "what-if" game.

Not too many, considering how god's chosen people in the bible saw miracles first hand-- and still went right back to misbehaving and worshipping idols as soon as god turned his holy back.

I contend that if I wittnessed the parting of the Red Sea, (which had to be impressive to allow 13 miles of people walk through it 100 abrest 3 feet apart.) 10 impossible plagues, a staff turn into a snake...

And this guy strike a rock in the desert with a staff and enough water to farm and quench the thirst of 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 million people. I would not resort to disobeying him and making idols to some diety that has never worked miracles like I had recently seen.

perhaps in 3 or 4 generations when the tales of magic all seemed like distant moral tales told by senile old men.

Not too many, considering how god's chosen people in the bible saw miracles first hand-- and still went right back to misbehaving and worshipping idols as soon as god turned his holy back.

I contend that if I wittnessed the parting of the Red Sea, (which had to be impressive to allow 13 miles of people walk through it 100 abrest 3 feet apart.) 10 impossible plagues, a staff turn into a snake...

And this guy strike a rock in the desert with a staff and enough water to farm and quench the thirst of 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 million people. I would not resort to disobeying him and making idols to some diety that has never worked miracles like I had recently seen.

perhaps in 3 or 4 generations when the tales of magic all seemed like distant moral tales told by senile old men.

Yep, the closer in time you get to the supposed miracle, the more skeptical the people seem to be. Adam and Eve talked directly to god and still did not believe him. Noah's family survived the flood and started acting up immediately. Moses himself could not get his people to stop with the paganism. And most Jews alive at the time of Jesus rejected the miracles--and they still do.

But as more time passes, and as the stories get crazier and even harder to document, more people start to believe in this stuff. Defies logic, I swear.

Yep, the closer in time you get to the supposed miracle, the more skeptical the people seem to be. Adam and Eve talked directly to god and still did not believe him. Noah's family survived the flood and started acting up immediately. Moses himself could not get his people to stop with the paganism. And most Jews alive at the time of Jesus rejected the miracles--and they still do.

But as more time passes, and as the stories get crazier and even harder to document, more people start to believe in this stuff. Defies logic, I swear.

They don't want to believe THEY are killing the planet therefore Global Warming is just nonsense: Biblegod is doing it because we sin. It's our fault but not because of this but that through that other thing.

I also believe because of miracles, both big and small that have happened in my own life. Like, me prophesying my baby brother's birth at the age of five, when he wasn't even born until I was almost 10 years old. Even though my parents were divorced, neither of them religious. My mother was brought up catholic but she stopped following religion a little before I was born, and my father is a hardcore atheist. I would have dreams of what my brother would look like and I always knew I would have a brother. This was even before I became a Christian. Then years later, I had went to a church they had a special prayer that day, with my aunt, who stopped believing and then started to believe again, and they had us write down our prayer requests and I had written down that I wanted a brother. At the most, a month later, I found out my mom was dating one of her friends, and that she was pregnant. I knew it was going to be a boy, and I knew exactly what he was going to look like and that we would go through a lot together. My mom also became ill shortly after, and I ended up raising my brother for the most part, even though I lived with my dad and never was taught how to care for a newborn...

I also know people, personally, one of which whom was given 3 months due to cancer and are now living in remission. One of them had stage 3 or 4ovarian cancer, (I'll ask the next time I see her or her granddaughter and edit the post and post the accurate stage it was. But I know it was either stage 3 or 4.)

Or how I learned Portuguese, by myself in less than a year, I first started speaking at the most 20 words. I can write, speak, and talk. And now I do a lot of religious work in both languages and have had experiences I wouldn't have had otherwise without knowing both languages. Many things like that have happened in my life. I keep a book of prayers, answered and not answered and I highlight the ones that have been answered... Let me tell you, there are a lot more pages highlighted than not. But when it comes to prayer, you really have to read the Bible in order to understand why some prayers go unanswered and also as to why bad things really happen in the world.

It's also funny how me and my boyfriend (who by the way, we had both prayed to meet someone that describes one another, I can even show the Prayer book and my diary to prove it!, at least my part because at first he wasn't interested), but the day I came across this website I was telling him that ever since I became baptized, my father has been extremely rude about me being in the church, and he's always been very respectful of me, but he even cursed the church and what not, but I actually like talking to him about church, because I like hearing his side of things even though he's an atheist. But we were talking about how the devil does try to attack us even in subtle ways. (Which he did when I met my friend because we started doing Bible studies together, and I didn't even think it was possible for the things that happened, to happen. But there was even a lamp explosion which had no logical reason whatsoever, because yes, even though I'm Christian, I don't like to be extreme either and blame everything on Satan. But I also have a picture of the lamp after it happened) But we were talking about attacks of the Devil, and how when we try to get closer to God he even tries to drag as down with doubts and such. And then shortly after, I came across this website while I was doing some bible study alone.

So thanks to www.godisimaginary.com , I have another part to add to my story and another testimony. Because of this website, my faith in Jesus Christ my savior, and God, has been made even stronger.

I have gone through a lot of tribulations and trials, and even though at the time they don't make sense, when I get through them I understand God's purpose for what I went through.

In conclusion, I don't live by what I live, hear, or see. But by my faith and feelings and experiences.

? thank you so much for testing my faith and increasing its strength. My faith wouldn't have been as strong today if it wasn't for this website.

1.Are you a born again Christian ? (the text make me suppose it). 2.What's your mother tongue ? (you said that you learn Portuguese in less than a year).3.You wrote "[...]I had written down that I wanted a brother. At the most, a month later, I found out my mom was dating one of her friends, and that she was pregnant.[...]".Do you know that coincidence does exist ?

He communicates through the scriptures, his spirit, and his people. This has not changed. He just does not communicate prophecy. The Bible is a complete record. Now that it is complete there is no need for more.

You have been led astray by childish prattling. I never thought I would read anything so gullible.

Everyone fools themself in their own unique way. That is why there are so many religions, sects and cults.

How exactly is wishing that you had a brother a prophesy? Did you actually write down the exact date, time, and location of the birth? Did you make a note of the birth weight? No, of course you bloody well didn't. This isn't a prophecy. Perhaps it has escaped you, but in families there's this thing called getting pregnant? It happens a lot. Really it does.

So, you wanted a brother and your mum produced a boy. OMG - what are the odds that having wanted a brother your mother would give birth to a boy? Wait, let me remind myself of the choices. Boy or girl. Yes, the odds of your mother having a boy were so astronomically against it happening, that it had to be a miracle. Of course it is.

And I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that you were able to predict what your brother would look like. I'm going to take a wild and really courageous guess here... your brother looks like... don't tell me... a little like other members of your family? How could I possibly have known that other than by it being a miracle?

Ah, good old cancer remission. I suppose the medical treatment that they received had nothing to do with increasing the odds of their survival right? That was just something that they did for shits and giggles, no doubt. You do know, don't you, that people do experience remission without using prayer. Also, you know that there's nothing at all to suggest that the religious experience remission any more frequently than anyone else. The three months? Well, we only have your word for it, but was it something like "without treatment in three months... insert something else here"? Do let us know.

Learning Portuguese. Well, that's something I can relate too. Hallelujah! I, too, have experienced a miracle. When I was living and working in Brasil, I learnt enough Portuguese in a month to more than get by, simply by watching Soap Operas. But how about my friends who speak 6, 7, or more languages? Did they all experience some kind of miracle. Or, perhaps, just perhaps they happen to be Swiss?

But you surely have me convinced with the fact that you met the kind of boy that you wanted to meet. I mean, how unusual is that! And how miraculous it was that you both were so instantly attracted to each other just like in your prayers! Oh, wait a sec, we'll just skip the part of how he was originally not interested in you as an inconvenience and pretend that him growing to like you was a miracle. After all. Boy meets girl in church? Who, in a million years, would ever think THAT would happen!

Exploding lamps. That's a miracle because you don't know why that would happen? I can't wait to tell the bulb in my garage door opener how miraculous it is. Thanks for the tip.

Now, as they say, the devil is in the details. How wonderfully convenient for you to be able to have a way to put your mind into ignore mode whenever disconfirming views are evident.

This, though, sums it up. Doesn't it?

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In conclusion, I don't live by what I live, hear, or see. But by my faith and feelings and experiences.

Basically, you're going to believe whatever you want to believe, and you're going to interpret everything in a way as to reinforce your existing biases.

But you knew that I was going to say that, didn't you? After all, being mocked for these beliefs, having people tell you that you are wrong, explaining how these things are nothing out of the ordinary, these are all tools that the devil uses to shake your faith?

Well, if the devil existed and wasn't just a character in a story book that might be so. On, the other hand, perhaps you are simply wrong because these things happen to people all over the world, including those that don't pray or pray to other gods. Why is that?

Also, do tell, why is it that your prayers have been answered, but the prayers from those kids in Africa who are starving to death just go unanswered? Is your god really that much of an capricious bastard. Or maybe he really is imaginary?

« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 09:49:31 PM by xyzzy »

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard FeynmanYou are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

I also believe because of miracles, both big and small that have happened in my own life. Like, me prophesying my baby brother's birth at the age of five, when he wasn't even born until I was almost 10 years old. Even though my parents were divorced, neither of them religious. My mother was brought up catholic but she stopped following religion a little before I was born, and my father is a hardcore atheist. I would have dreams of what my brother would look like and I always knew I would have a brother. This was even before I became a Christian. Then years later, I had went to a church they had a special prayer that day, with my aunt, who stopped believing and then started to believe again, and they had us write down our prayer requests and I had written down that I wanted a brother. At the most, a month later, I found out my mom was dating one of her friends, and that she was pregnant. I knew it was going to be a boy, and I knew exactly what he was going to look like and that we would go through a lot together. My mom also became ill shortly after, and I ended up raising my brother for the most part, even though I lived with my dad and never was taught how to care for a newborn...

Ok...there is a good chance that I'm going to be crossing some boundaries here. Please, please, please understand that I do not intend to offend.

You prayed for your mother. I suspect that you prayed with at least the same degree of conviction, desires, belief, intent, and strength as when you prayed for a brother. If not, well, I think there's something about priorities and morality that I think we can discuss, but I'm just guessing that I'm right and you prayed your heart out. I'm also guessing that there were more people praying for your mother than there were praying for you to have a brother. If you somehow know that's not the case, well, fine, I won't argue. But I think there's something about empathy that we'd have to discuss.

Explain. God just not 'feeling it' that day? Wasn't part of his plan? Was your brother a part of his plan?

Coincidences do happen. Both fortuitous and disastrous.

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So thanks to www.godisimaginary.com , I have another part to add to my story and another testimony. Because of this website, my faith in Jesus Christ my savior, and God, has been made even stronger.

I have gone through a lot of tribulations and trials, and even though at the time they don't make sense, when I get through them I understand God's purpose for what I went through.

In conclusion, I don't live by what I live, hear, or see. But by my faith and feelings and experiences.

? thank you so much for testing my faith and increasing its strength. My faith wouldn't have been as strong today if it wasn't for this website.

Do you know what the problem with this increase of strength of faith is?

The feedback loop.

It is rather easy to simply dismiss a claim that is contrary to what you believe without giving it too much thought. I mean - you're a human being, and, according to my driver's license, so am I, and I suffer from the same kind of confirmation bias proclivities that I suspect many of my fellow human being suffer from. You included. Now, as if that weren't bad enough (you know, the whole typically taking more effort to change your mind than to hold on to what you already believe as true), there is this faith thing.

I'm still pretty squishy on the whole faith thing, but the clearest picture I have of it in my head comes from a discussion I was having with Philospoher_at_Large (who, I should point out, agrees with you insofar as having positive belief that god exists) right here on this very website. Faith is essentially optimistically-weighted intuition. Note that I'm not sure whether or not he would agree with such a succinct explanation of faith, but that's really the best I've been able to cobble together.

Finally, you've also somehow gotten it into your noggin' that faith is a virtue. Having more faith is more better. It is desirable to have faith, more faith, and strong faith. Strengthening of faith elicits a positive feelings in yourself...

...I suspect that you can tell where I'm going with this. Shortform: you pop onto a website with counterarguments to your beliefs. Upon reading them, your first reaction is to dismiss them as being incongruent with what you already believe. It feels good to dismiss an argument, and you have less compelling reason to further explore the counter argument. There's only so deep you'll think about the argument before you dismiss it altogether, content at your additional strength of faith.

I contend you have not explored deep enough. You haven't thought about the arguments on this site well enough to have a firm enough understanding of them to properly discount them. Now I'm not sure what evidence I can bring to bear to suggest that this is true - perhaps you have thought about it deeply enough. But from your anecdotes...I really don't think that's the case.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

That's great. I can do that trick too, particularly if I pray for things that are likely to happen. I prayed I would get up on time this morning. (prayer answered! Of course, I set my alarm the night before...) I prayed I would have a bowl of cheerios with half a peach for breakfast. (prayer answered! Of course, I knew I had cereal and peaches yesterday...) I prayed I would make it to work without a car accident. (prayer answered! Of course, I've not had a car accident in 8 years...) you get the point, I hope.

Now, if I prayed for the statue of liberty to fly to Washington DC and stomp Senator Ted Cruz to a pulp, I would be quite surprised if that happened and might consider that miraculous. I might also take that as a sign that god is indeed good.

But when it comes to prayer, you really have to read the Bible in order to understand why some prayers go unanswered and also as to why bad things really happen in the world.

That's fascinating. I read the bible and I don't understand why some prayers go unanswered. Perhaps you can explain?

I also do not find any compelling answers as to why bad things happen, though it gives several lame answers. One reason given in the bible (for why bad things happen) is in the book of Job. The answer is essentially because god is as capricious and inscrutable as nature. So god is identical to an indifferent Mother Nature. On this question I suggest you read a book called "God's Problem" by Bart Ehrman. He does an excellent analysis on the question of evil.

who by the way, we had both prayed to meet someone that describes one another

That is what is called a self fulfilling prophesy and is not suprising at all. You see, you are probably attracted to a particuar kind of man. So when seeking a mate, you sought that particular type and rejected others. It was completely predictable that your boyfriend would generally meet those criteria. And the same applies to him. You fit a particular type he was attracted to. So he sought that type and rejected young women who did not meet the criteria. And voila. You met and hooked up. Not miraculous in the least.

why the flip would the devil make a lamp explode? How does that help further the devil's goals? The devil is supposedly the king of the world and has all sorts of power out the ass and his best move is to make a lamp explode? W. T. F. Seriously, that is the stupidest, most poorly thought out idea I've heard this month.

In conclusion, I don't live by what I live, hear, or see. But by my faith and feelings and experiences.

These sentences make absolutely no sense. How is it even possible that you "don't live by what you live"? And how can you live by experiences if you don't live by what you see and hear? If you don't see and hear things, how do you experience them?

To kfjessi: Upon reading your testimonial, this doesn't sound like a product I would buy. It's the worst kind of wishful thinking, the elevation of the utterly banal to unjustified heights.

Seriously, young one, your alleged god doesn't sound like much of a catch and your critical thinking needs a major tune-up, if not a complete overhaul. There isn't a single thing you listed that I would consider miraculous, and if you continue on your current trajectory you'll end up giving away a great deal of your life and personal power to an outdated fiction.

I left the comment:1.This was not reported on TV or in the newspapers. 2. There are no names given.3. There was no record of the actual child4. There are 7 million blind people in the USA - how many has he cured?5. The miracle can be reproduced by putting pig-fat on the eyes.and then wiping it off.

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The guy is a fraud. Anyone who believes him is gullible.

As was foretold by the Prophet: the comment never made it though the Holy Comments Filter.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

kfjessi, if yours was the only religion that had these kinds of things happen, you might have a case. But other religions, even ones you probably consider complete made-up frauds report the same kinds of things. Would you believe a Muslim, a Scientologist, a Hindu or a Mormon who wrote the exact same post as you did?

If a Haitian Vodun believer told you that a woman became possessed by the spirit of Papa Legba, sacrificed a chicken and predicted the birth of their baby brother, how he would look, etc. would you think it was true or a coincidence? Would you immediately assume that the Haitian gods were real and convert to their faith? If not, why not?

If you can apply the same critical thinking to your own faith as you can to those you do not accept, you might understand better where we are coming from.

BTW, I knew that my baby would be a daughter as soon as I became pregnant. I never had any tests for the sex of the baby, wanting it to be a "surprise". I never even imagined her to be a boy, and when she was born, she was a girl, just as I knew all along. I am an atheist. I never prayed about it or read the bible. I just knew. A miracle, right?

Or, maybe about 50% of the time, babies are girls. Those are pretty good odds of having a girl if you want a girl. If my baby had been a boy, I would have conveniently forgotten how strongly I had believed it was going to be a girl. Maybe the boy was gay and I would ret-con my memory into a girly boy. But no way could I have been wrong. Right?

I still don't understand what can not be considered a miracle. All claims of supposed miracles are cases of special pleading because these people simultaneously believe that the existence of nature/the universe and all it encompasses is a miracle too. That natural forces exist, that particles and atoms exist, that life exists, that they and I exist - these are all miracles according to the believer, yet they simply put all of this to one side, forget about it and start claiming there are miracles which are in contrast with the day-to-day consistent behaviour of nature/the universe.

Simply put, the claim of miracles is in direct conflict with the ID argument. You can not argue for both positions without contradiction. Either you argue for ID where everything is a miracle (and therefore the term "miracle" becomes meaningless), or you don't believe your god is the creator of all nature/the universe and everything but interferes in the already existent nature/universe for which god had no hand in creating.

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If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

^^^Yep. A miracle is two different things to religious believers. God is credited with both kinds.

First, there is an unlikely, statistically improbable, but normal and explainable (and of course, good) event: a woman has triplets after dreaming of three babies, or a poor family wins the lottery, or the dog alerts the family to the fire and everyone is saved, or an old man makes a hole in one at golf. These things happen all the time, somewhere. It's a miracle! say the headlines.

And miracles are also impossible, supernatural (and of course, good) events unexplainable by science: the amputated leg grows back overnight, or the person brain dead for three days gets up and is normal, during a drought it rains only on the farms of the Muslim families, a disease epidemic attacks a country and all the baptized Catholics survive while everyone else dies, a hurricane destroys a city and only the Mormon church and 15 homes with Mormon families are left intact. These are the kinds of things that have never been documented as really happening.

Either the one miracle started with the big bang and everything that has happened since is included, or life is just a natural event and miracles are the extra special interventions of supernatural beings. People like Lukvance don't seem to notice how they dance all over the place, making up new definitions of "miracle" whenever they need one.