If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

"Ash didn't use Pikachu. But if he did he would've won." But he didn't so it doesn't matter since gym battles are decided between the Pokemon used in battle and not the Pokemon not in the battle.

Ash didn't use his Pikachu because Pikachu was (un)intentionally manipulated by Misty. Therefore, Misty, the opponent of Ash and then for one episode, gym leader, cheated. And because she cheated, that influenced the whole match. This isn't only about the match itself, it's also about what happened around it. The argument that Ash's didn't deserved to win this badge already loses weight because of Misty taking advantage of Pikachu decision. A gym leader would have stimulated Pikachu to fight. No, she didn't want to get obliterated by Pikachu and therefore cheered Pikachu's decision not to battle.

2. I think you need to do some bit of research. Nowhere in the anime until that point was it stipulated that the only official way of obtaining a badge would be by winning. It was only presumed to be that way by the audience, that get their presumptions and interpretations from playing the games and think it's applicable to the anime. That is like comparing a peer with a apple. Just because they are in the same category, doesn't mean they are comparable with each other. That's erroneous fallacy.

2-1 disadvantage is nothing unheard of in the anime and it has been overcome before. Also, solely because Misty's strongest Pokemon was taken out doesn't mean anything. Pikachu has been beaten in battle before but I don't see Ash losing most battle because of that.

I agree that the above mentioned example did occasionally happened during the anime, but still, that remains a assumption that Misty could have won solely based on the fact that the exact circumstances occasionally took place and the underdog surprisingly won. Gryphon came out with facts. Facts about the exact situation the battle was in before Team Rocket arrived. Facts, universally, are accepted to carry more value and weight against assumptions.

First off, Pikachu was the one that didn't want to battle in the first place. Misty did jack-**** to manipulate it. Secondly, battles are decided between the Pokemon in the battle and not the sidelines. Unless, we want to take away Ash's final frontier symbol since Brandon didn't use all of the Regi.

Difference between Pikachu and Brandon:
-Brandon CHOOSE not to use one of Regi's
-Pikachu REFUSED to battle because of Misty and her small (un)intentional manipulative tactics.

Don't overgeneralize stuff that quick please.

Except 1-0 leads have been lost and anything could've happened. Ash has gone up in battles where he dominated early but lost in the end anyway. If we want to play hypothetical situations, Misty could of surged back with Staryu.

My hypothetical examples are at least based on the solid facts Gryphon has presented in his take on the Misty fans. Your hypothetical example is based on none facts other than "Yeah, well it happened that sometimes there were these comebacks, so it could have happened with Misty.

Read that could part again. Could in a hypothetical example is tantamount to speculation.

Read above silly.]

To answer this last comment of yours, I will refrain from calling it deplorable. But seeing as you can't be convinced - even when the facts are obviously and thoroughly explained to you - then let's play it your way. So, the match ended after Team Rocket was blasted/sucked away in the water. Seeing as both parties and the third party (The three sisters) unanimously agreed after some arguing that the match was over, Ash was presented the second badge.

Now, statistically, let's see the results of the Match.

Ash:
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

Misty:
Staryu: Called out against Butterfree. Resulted in stalemate before Butterfree first was recalled and afterwards Staryu
Starmie: Called out against Pidgeotto but got defeated with ease.

Results:
Ash: 2 Pokemon still battle-ready
Misty: 1 eliminated and one still battle-ready.

Ash therefore - according to the statistics - deserved the second badge in accordance to the unanimous decision made by all the parties at the end of the episode that the match was officially over.

Ash didn't use his Pikachu because Pikachu was (un)intentionally manipulated by Misty. Therefore, Misty, the opponent of Ash and then for one episode, gym leader, cheated.

Pikachu itself chose not to battle and Ash himself accepted that. As a result, Misty cheated. This troll.

And because she cheated, that influenced the whole match. This isn't only about the match itself, it's also about what happened around it. The argument that Ash's didn't deserved to win this badge already loses weight because of Misty taking advantage of Pikachu decision. A gym leader would have stimulated Pikachu to fight. No, she didn't want to get obliterated by Pikachu and therefore cheered Pikachu's decision not to battle.

Except she didn't cheat. Pikachu choosing not to battle and Ash not forcing it to doesn't equate to Misty cheating in any way. Misty didn't say anything about it until Ash had already accepted that Pikachu wasn't going to battle. A Gym Leader has no say in what Pokemon the trainer chooses. In fact, that would be more manipulating than what happened in the actual battle.

2. I think you need to do some bit of research. Nowhere in the anime until that point was it stipulated that the only official way of obtaining a badge would be by winning. It was only presumed to be that way by the audience, that get their presumptions and interpretations from playing the games and think it's applicable to the anime. That is like comparing a peer with a apple. Just because they are in the same category, doesn't mean they are comparable with each other. That's erroneous fallacy.

It seems you are the one that needs to do research. "Pity badge" is a fan term so whether or not it's acknowledged in the show is meaningless as whether or not it is a pity badge. In fact, a "pity badge" is simply defined as him, or anyone, not winning a badge through battle. Also, fans acknowledge that a trainer can get a badge from doing a good deed but that doesn't stop it from being a pity badge. In fact, that's how the term came to be in the first place.

I agree that the above mentioned example did occasionally happened during the anime, but still, that remains a assumption that Misty could have won solely based on the fact that the exact circumstances occasionally took place and the underdog surprisingly won.

And you're working under the assumption that Misty would've stuck to a similar strategy that she had been using before. Assumptions work both ways here. You're working under the assumption that Ash would've won the battle.

Gryphon came out with facts. Facts about the exact situation the battle was in before Team Rocket arrived. Facts, universally, are accepted to carry more value and weight against assumptions.

"Facts" that are meaningless is the context of the battle. Taking the word of Daisy, a person who was deemed as a poor trainer and Gym Leader back then and even now, over the results of a battle and battle strategies is questionable at best.

Let's look at the "facts": "Pikachu was the one that, like, saved us all, and if Ash had used Pikachu from the start, there was no way that your water Pokemon could have won." Probably true but that doesn't matter since the Pokemon in the battle decide the outcome. This is a would've, could've, should've.

"Also consider that Pikachu was *ordered* by Ash to blow away TR, and it was ultimately Ash himself that stopped their machine." This is true but has nothing to do with the battle. This, in fact, begins to fall in line with the definition for pity badge since the initial reason Daisy gave for giving him the badge was saving the Pokemon.

"On top of *that*, Ash had gotten ahead of Misty 1-0 in their match." Not true. Misty herself stated that it was getting low on energy and nothing else. She didn't say it couldn't battle. In fact, no one stated that it was unable to battle and Ash himself was preparing for another attack before Team Rocket interrupted.

"Since Misty's strongest pokemon---Starmie---had just been Whirlwinded out of commission by a still-raring-to-go Pidgeotto," Again. Starmie was still able to battle. Also, this person assumes that Starmie is Misty's strongest Pokemon even though there is no evidence to support that theory. The anime even goes out of its way to show us that evolved Pokemon are not always stronger.

"The only pity in that scene was for Misty, not for Ash...Daisy knew that Ash would have prevealed, despite her younger sister's sabotage(Misty certainly didn't pass up on the opportunity to use her bond with Ash's Pikachu against Ash himself)." Out of context evidence. Misty didn't do anything. Pikachu initially refused to battle and Ash pointed this out. He then began to choose another Pokemon when he had accepted that Pikachu wasn't going to battle and then Misty said something about it. She never stated anything during it because it isn't her decision as to what Pokemon Ash was going to use. Ash was the one at fault for not raising his Pikachu well enough if anything. Again, using Daisy as evidence is laughable. She isn't reliable at all when it comes to battling from what we were shown. Also, Misty can't choose what Pokemon Ash chose during the battle. Was she happy that she didn't have to face Pikachu? Yeah but there was nothing she could do about it even if she wanted to face Pikachu.

Difference between Pikachu and Brandon:
-Brandon CHOOSE not to use one of Regi's
-Pikachu REFUSED to battle because of Misty and her small (un)intentional manipulative tactics.

Stop. Ash also chose not to use Pikachu. All things considered, Ash could've simply ordered Pikachu into battle. He just decided to not use it in the battle without further pressing the issue. Again, Misty did nothing. If anything, blame Ash for being a bad trainer back then.

Don't overgeneralize stuff that quick please.

Hard to overgeneralize when you're telling me that Misty cheated because she manipulated Pikachu into not battling. Or when you don't know the definition of a pity badge.

My hypothetical examples are at least based on the solid facts Gryphon has presented in his take on the Misty fans. Your hypothetical example is based on none facts other than "Yeah, well it happened that sometimes there were these comebacks, so it could have happened with Misty.

I just poked holes into those "facts." Your "facts" rely on the words of trainers that were below Misty's battling skills even back in episode seven. Trainers who had no business being Gym Leaders and almost got the gym closed in a future episode. Their track record alone shows them to be unreliable sources of anything battling related. The fact that you believe that Daisy has any type of reliability in battling strategies is amusing at best.

Read that could part again. Could in a hypothetical example is tantamount to speculation. \

Works both ways.

To answer this last comment of yours, I will refrain from calling it deplorable. But seeing as you can't be convinced - even when the facts are obviously and thoroughly explained to you - then let's play it your way. So, the match ended after Team Rocket was blasted/sucked away in the water. Seeing as both parties and the third party (The three sisters) unanimously agreed after some arguing that the match was over, Ash was presented the second badge.

Learn the definition of pity badge.

Now, statistically, let's see the results of the Match.

Ash:
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

Misty:
Staryu: Called out against Butterfree. Resulted in stalemate before Butterfree first was recalled and afterwards Staryu
Starmie: Called out against Pidgeotto but got defeated with ease.

Results:
Ash: 2 Pokemon still battle-ready
Misty: 1 eliminated and one still battle-ready.

Ash therefore - according to the statistics - deserved the second badge in accordance to the unanimous decision made by all the parties at the end of the episode that the match was officially over.

Starmie wasn't beaten. Misty even said "Oh no, Starmie is low on energy." Not beaten. Also, Ash was told he deserved the badge for saving the Pokemon. Daisy just added that he would've won if he had used Pikachu but that it irrelevant since Pikachu wasn't in the battle. Ash even sated that he guessed that he wasn't going to get the badge. What does it tell you if the trainer himself didn't believe he was going to get the badge?

Did you just use statistics in a show that didn't even follow all of the rules of its source material? The show that has shown to go against all logic in multiple battles and on multiple occasions? Again statistics don't mean anything in actual practice. If we take something like sporting events, they have statistics but both teams are still forced to play the game because statistics mean jack in actual practice because of different factors during the event.

Last edited by Vernikova; 28th August 2012 at 3:52 AM.

Fighting for real American turtles everywhere. Pro-Turtle since 6/30/13

You know Terra, after reading that last comment, I must apologize . You were mostly right and I was bad informed about the exact definition of pity-badge. I re-watched the episode and that specific part we're were discussing and you were right that Misty didn't cheat or manipulate Pikachu. She only made a comment afterwards about it.

I agree that this badge specifically is very debatable whether it is a pity badge or not. I stand by the fact that Ash was in many ways having advantages by type and the match was going most in his favor. And yes, it did occasionally happened that Ash or others made surprising comebacks and won the match as an result. So therefore, I will correct myself: This badge a pity badge, but it could (Oehh speculation) have been close in earning his first non-pity badge XD.

Ash:
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

It wouldn't be first time, with Brock forfeiting with Geodude in PK1 tournament before Hitmonlee knocked it, Pryce which threw towel stopping battle between Piloswine and Pikachu etc.

Part of reason why im questioning this, is because judging by dialogue in that episode Misty said how they were tied and Ash didn't won.

As for outcome of battle, i have to agree with Terra Branford. There is nothing to suggest that Starmie was stronger than Staryu, which showed greater fighting abilities in that battle.

About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

It wouldn't be first time, with Brock forfeiting with Geodude in PK1 tournament before Hitmonlee knocked it, Pryce which threw towel stopping battle between Piloswine and Pikachu etc.

Part of reason why im questioning this, is because judging by dialogue in that episode Misty said how they were tied and Ash didn't won.

As for outcome of battle, i have to agree with Terra Branford. There is nothing to suggest that Starmie was stronger than Staryu, which showed greater fighting abilities in that battle.

Well, if Butterfree was knocked out of commission, then it would also seem uncontroversial to say that Starmie was defeated to by Ash's Pidgeotto. Therefore, it would be a tie. But me and Terra agreed upon that this is a pity-badge, but if Team Rocket didn't interfere with the match and the writers didn't hate Ash that much, It would be understandable to say out of how the match went and the type disadvantage Misty had, that Ash clearly was on the winning hand. But then again, I can't predict a hypothetical outcome because there was, unfortunately, never a outcome.

This episode was much better than the boring one before it. Misty's sisters are annoying as heck. Too bad Team Rocket interrupted with their silly plan. Unlike Pewter Gym, Ash actually had a good chance at winning this battle but I guess the writers didn't want him to seem better than his travelling companions yet.

This episode was much better than the boring one before it. Misty's sisters are annoying as heck. Too bad Team Rocket interrupted with their silly plan. Unlike Pewter Gym, Ash actually had a good chance at winning this battle but I guess the writers didn't want him to seem better than his travelling companions yet.

I liked Misty's sisters. But you could tell that they weren't interested in gym battles. They reminded me of coordinators almost. However the gym battle was nice until it was interrupted. Those girls should have never gave Ash that badge after getting a pity badge from Brock before. This is why I don't like this series.

About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

Amazing episode. I think it's because Misty, Starmie, and Staryu battled. I liked how Staryu was clumsy at the beginning of the battle. :3 I agree with the earlier posts. Starmie didn't lose the battle, Misty just said it was about to run out of energy. And if Ash did use Pikachu, how would that work out? I doubt Pikachu would swim in the pool, so Staryu and Starmie would still have the advantage. Ash didn't start having smart strategies yet. I know I sound biased towards them. Haha, and the James joke was still funny.

For the second gym battle, I think it was easier than battling against Brock. The battle was cool and a little short as well.

Misty's sisters are so lazy that they prefered to offer the badge to Ash for free than battling against him later, this didn't sound good for me if you consider that they conquered the gym leader position and should show some effort on that instead distributing badges away. Second thing is that after blowing Team Rocket out, Ash received the badge right away from the girls. The right thing would that Ash and Misty should have finished the battle, but I think that the autor wanted to show the public that there are other methods to win a thing without winning the traditional way.

It should've been his first non-pity badge. But the writers hate him or something.

Sorry for sounding so rude, but I've been rather grumpy lately and replying to long posts doesn't help that. (p'.')p

I think it has more to do with a misguided attempt at showing him winning a badge creatively and somehow missing that it comes off as a cheap win.

And I do agree, that this should have been an actual win. Even, then with Brock for example it's understandable. Onix in addition to having a type advantage against all of Ash's Pokemon at the time, and being well huge. Or Sabrina for instance had a strong Kadabra, and at the time Psychic Pokemon were for the most part treated as the strongest type.

I mean had Pidgeotto won, and recalls (like Staryu) worked against the trainer, then Ash would have won and in a manner that wasn't cheap.

In Kanto saga, Ash got some 'pity' badges, Cascade badge is one of them. Kanto saga is good, but I dislike the fact that Ash got so many cheap wins in Kanto gym battles. I don't get why the writers gave Ash badges so easily in Kanto saga. Misty's sisters were hot, but they're kinda annoying too.

Last edited by PokemontrainerY; 26th September 2013 at 9:07 AM.

Pokémon XY

Kalos, Where Dreams and Adventures Begin!

Originally Posted by DaDonYordel

Are we not just silly people writing silly complaints on this message board?

I think it has more to do with a misguided attempt at showing him winning a badge creatively and somehow missing that it comes off as a cheap win.

And I do agree, that this should have been an actual win. Even, then with Brock for example it's understandable. Onix in addition to having a type advantage against all of Ash's Pokemon at the time, and being well huge. Or Sabrina for instance had a strong Kadabra, and at the time Psychic Pokemon were for the most part treated as the strongest type.

I mean had Pidgeotto won, and recalls (like Staryu) worked against the trainer, then Ash would have won and in a manner that wasn't cheap.

Yup yup. Totes agree. It's a shame since it could've simply been used as his first straight-forward win in a gym battle which would've done a lot on its own. At the very least, the were able to pull it off much better in the next battle with Surge.

Fighting for real American turtles everywhere. Pro-Turtle since 6/30/13

Another favorite of mine from my childhood. This gym battle episode I feel was much better than with Brock's, if only because it was a straightforward battle, and Ash did use his other Pokémon and showed what they could do. It probably was a good thing Pikachu refused to battle as it would've all been one-sided much like how her sisters pointed out. It's rather interesting to see that Misty did not hesitate to challenge Ash if only because of her grudge. You'd think his reaction to learning she was one of the gym leaders of Cerulean would be more in awe, but eh. On a meta-example, as a kid, I hadn't played the games yet, so Misty being a gym leader was a twist to me that made it up for Ash's reaction.

So the character who had development the most here was Misty, which makes since given it's pretty much her episode. (Is it just me, or was she a bit of a romantic in these early episodes? Unless it's just the dub?) She really must not like her sisters very much to have never hinted at them before, let alone her status as a gym leader. The reveal of Goldeen in the second episode I feel doesn't really cut it for me since we never saw her battle. Though it's possible she's not that great of a battler, which is why she left home to go train, if her sisters are anything to go by. They said she has the most talent out of the four of them, so something tells me the Cerulean Gym isn't a difficult challenge for trainers if the sisters are like that. As for the Sensational Sisters, they are interesting characters, and I'm glad we get to see them again from time to time, but I do wish we got to know about them a little bit more. I can't remember who played the sisters (as familiar as their voices sound), but the whole “valley girl” attitude they gave them wasn't as annoying as how the fandom seemed to have made it out to be. Or I just didn't remember it that well. Also, Rachel Lillis sounded really good here as Misty, probably because of how energetic she was to begin with.

Team Rocket's break-in is similar to that in the games, I've noticed. However, their idea was... not well-thought out. Their plan was to suck up water for Water Pokémon? Was there any proof that there were Water Pokémon in that pool prior to the “Misty Mermaid” episode? And even then, I think they set up the pool prior to the shows anyway, Pokémon included, so their idea sunk. (They also apparently didn't hook it up properly since Seel was outside.) And yes, I'm aware of James' comment, but I'm not commenting on it like everyone else did. It's too redundant.

We meet another Officer Jenny, who has a distinct personality of her own (though maybe as ditzy as Viridian City's Jenny). I have to do a double take at her saying she an Viridian!Jenny are sister-in-laws. Sister-in-law??? That makes me really tilt my head even though that mystery is kinda answered later on in the show (like way later on). However, I have found a little bit of detail that helps tell these Jennies apart a little bit: the sigmas on their hats. Viridian City's Jenny as a five-pointed star, while Cerulean's Jenny is a pentagon. Also, though it may just be me, but their hair colors are also slightly different. Viridian's has more green in her hair than Cerulean's, which is more blue. Forgot to check back with Joy, but most often than not, I've noticed the cross' color differs on the hat, so... yeah.

Also, lol at Brock getting turned down with a burn when he asked her out. “I'm not off duty until past your bedtime.” XD

I'm noticing a pattern when it comes to the badges. The reason Ash gets badges the way he does is because they insist he take the badges, even though he clearly refuses to accept them so easily, but they talk him into it. ASH, STOP GIVING IN TO PRESSURE. They apparently give him the badges because even though he does have the upper-hand, and can finish the fight with one last attack, they don't allow him to finish the fight correctly. Thank goodness Lt. Surge's battle went normally, meanwhile I have a feeling I'm gonna have a bone to pick with Erika if I remember correctly.

I swear, this episode was probably where 4KIDS started to hint at Pokéshipping. I wonder what Daisy really said in the original when she teased Misty about Ash being her boyfriend, which appears to be a running gag in the dub. But the argument during the battle and even afterwards was really great, they bounced off each other pretty well. It kinda reminds me of my brothers and I whenever we have our dumb arguments, but it feels realistic to how ten-year-olds argue with each other, especially those between boys and girls. While I doubt it was as noticeable in the original, is it any wonder the two were teased as a couple in the dub? I doubt 4KIDS planned that out at first.

Now if only we knew where Brock went to. Unless he went back to Officer Jenny for some reason, Brock basically snuck out of the episode for the most part. Pretty weird.

So while I think the pacing felt a bit weird, what happened in the episode was what we basically wanted to see, and it was enjoyable. It won't be until we reach Lt. Surge before we learn just how brutal gym battles can be (Brock's first battle with Ash is tame compared to Surge and Sabrina's). But for now, the next six episodes will be nothing but a trip down memory lane, and possibly even a question as to whether I did the math right in my head or not, because I swear it took Ash and friends forever to get to Vermilion.

I watched this episode again and I really enjoyed how suspicious Officer Jenny was of Ash and Brock, and I honestly wonder if the Boulder Badge that Brock showed her was the same one he gave Ash, or another one that he had. Anyway, I liked Pikachu's reaction to seeing Misty's sisters perform their water ballet, although I wasn't sure if he admired their performance or if he just thought they were pretty lol. Seeing Misty battle Ash was the most satisfying part of this episode for me. I liked that Ash couldn't use Pikachu since he refused to battle against a friend, and at least Ash's Butterfree and Pidgeotto got to shine. It's a pity that Misty's Staryu put up a better fight than her Starmie though. Still a good episode nonetheless.

I watched this episode again and I really enjoyed how suspicious Officer Jenny was of Ash and Brock, and I honestly wonder if the Boulder Badge that Brock showed her was the same one he gave Ash, or another one that he had. Anyway, I liked Pikachu's reaction to seeing Misty's sisters perform their water ballet, although I wasn't sure if he admired their performance or if he just thought they were pretty lol. Seeing Misty battle Ash was the most satisfying part of this episode for me. I liked that Ash couldn't use Pikachu since he refused to battle against a friend, and at least Ash's Butterfree and Pidgeotto got to shine. It's a pity that Misty's Staryu put up a better fight than her Starmie though. Still a good episode nonetheless.

Misty's Staryu has always been better than her Starmie. It's a shame that she had both at the same time, as I would have liked to have seen Misty make the progression of having one and then eventually deciding to evolve it into the other.

Seriously though, this was one of my faviourite episodes from the original series, despite the (highly desputed) pity badge. More than anything, it was a worthwhile episode simply because of Misty's development as a character within it.

Misty's Staryu has always been better than her Starmie. It's a shame that she had both at the same time, as I would have liked to have seen Misty make the progression of having one and then eventually deciding to evolve it into the other.

To be honest, the writers only made Starmie battle four times (five if you include vs Bulbasaur) while Staryu battles more. I do agree with what you said, but it's unknown if she had caught Starmie as a Staryu or if they were gym/gift Pokemon.