Should Landorus-I get a suspect test?

Yes

No

conflict: we don't drop things down to balance threats. that's not how we do things. if you want to change it, talk to the council, but as far as this thread is concerned, keep it focused on landorus. also i've been using the same team for almost 2 years and have had good results with it, but that doesn't mean i don't find bw mons broken.

alexwolf:

non-sun offensive teams DO have trouble with landorus. i can't count the amount of times i've played/watched a game where i've seen an offensive team's latias get pursuited with ridiculous ease (if anyone says this isn't a valid argument because the latias user should be able to predict the ttar switch you're wrong because prediction goes both ways!) and then when lando got in on a choiced terrakion/keldeo's fighting move, he rp'd and it was game over because even though the offensive team was still relatively healthy, it simply could not withstand lando's brutal power.

zapdos is not a fucking landorus counter. bronzong is alright but stall has better options. defensive gyarados is horrible. you're saying that rotom-w + amoonguss is a prediction reliant method of handling lando, but again, prediction goes both ways. balanced / stall teams are absolutely destroyed by a half-decent landorus team/player, and if you think otherwise i'm inclined to think you haven't had that match-up too often. lando pretty much forces you to use celebi (and even that doesn't work if it's got u-turn) unless you want to lose, which is kind of a big deal.

Moderator

Firstly, can we drop the Priority argument. I am sure everyone here is well aware that Landorus-I is weak to Ice Shard and is unlikely to keep Landorus-I in unless they had a good reason for doing so. Furthermore, I don't really get why priority is even being discussed, since it has no real relevance as to whether or not we suspect Landorus-I.

To put it quite simply, the issue is people are finding things that beat Landorus-I and saying "well that's it, its not suspect worthy" and personally, I think there needs to be a little more depth involved. Many mons have counters, or checks, ways of being handled but a mon having checks and counters is still no reason not to suspect a said mon. Heck, we currently have a few previously OU mons that were banned to Ubers and they had counters, so can we please go into greater discussion. Saying, "Ice Shard beats Landorus-I" isn't an argument, however something like "X beats Landorus-I which therefore makes it not suspect worthy due to Y and Z" is a much better argument.

(for an example of a post that needs more expanding on a priority argument, you can look at victinivcreate1's post which needs a fair amount of work).

As already mentioned, offensive teams not named sun offense don't have huge troubles with Rock Polish Landorus and have even less problems with U-turn Landorus.

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Man can you like, back that up with some evidence. Like im just saying there are a fair amount of quality players saying they have reservations after Landorus-I and want it suspected, but then you go and claim almost no teams have trouble with Landorus-I. Are you saying they all play sun offence or something?

Both definitions are clear in something: A Pokemon that can switch into a certain threat and is able to deal with him either by stalling it or attacking. There is 0 mention about partners. This may sound repetitive, but saying that Celebi is not a counter to Landorus because it is trapped by Tyranitar is the same as saying that Skarmory is not a counter for Scizor because it is trapped and KO'ed by Magnezone. When we talk about counters, we ony talk about the so called "counter" and the attacking pokemon.

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This post as a point I was trying to make myself, but it also slightly misses the point. Basically, I don't think anyone is claiming RP Landorus-I has no counters, it does. They are called Celebi and Latias. The issue, many people have is that those 2 counters lose to other Landorus sets, and you don't know what set its running until its revealed Rock Polish or U-Turn. This is key because it means that your Celebi isn't a 100% safe switch until you have successfully scouted if it lacks U-Turn. This, is (I think) the problem many people have with Landorus-I, sure, it has individual counters for each set, the trouble is its tremendously hard to actually find out what set its running, without losing a pokemon while doing it. This problem is magnified when Landorus-I has counters that can trap and eliminate many of its counters or checks. For example CB Tar, can trap and KO most Latias / Celebi, and can threaten many of the pokemon alexwolf listed with a STAB Crunch or Stone Edge. It can even "checkmate" Zapdos by threatening it with a Stone Edge or a Pursuit if it switchs out, which risks crippling Zapdos for Landorus-I (or something else Zapdos is checking) to sweep.

I have one final point, and that is for serveral users to stop moaning that U-Turn Landorus doesn't sweep, because you are 100% missing the point. The point of the set is to lure in Celebi and Latias, eliminate them with a U-Turn to Tyranitar, and then exploit there absence with a Breloom or Keldeo or whatever else they plan to abuse. Furthermore many users are forgetting that Landorus-I has 101 base speed, which means that even without Rock Polish, its hitting very hard with that Earth Power. I have tested the set myself and found it very reliable against balanced teams where I wouldn't need Rock Polish so much. Against Offensive teams, its not a problem since the purpose of a set is a LURE, and the mon that benefits from the lure is ususally sweeping when I take down the mon im luring so I don't really care that much.

Also @ Conflict, I really hate to call you out but can your posts actually focus more on Landorus-I rather than your opinions on other suspects. It risks derailing the thread and I like reading the bits of your post that mention Landorus-I so if you could just stay on the topic that would be awesome =]

(sorry for the disjointed post, I had to sorta rush it b4 uni and intend to make a better one when I get back)

conflict: we don't drop things down to balance threats. that's not how we do things. if you want to change it, talk to the council, but as far as this thread is concerned, keep it focused on landorus. also i've been using the same team for almost 2 years and have had good results with it, but that doesn't mean i don't find bw mons broken.

alexwolf:

non-sun offensive teams DO have trouble with landorus. i can't count the amount of times i've played/watched a game where i've seen an offensive team's latias get pursuited with ridiculous ease (if anyone says this isn't a valid argument because the latias user should be able to predict the ttar switch you're wrong because prediction goes both ways!) and then when lando got in on a choiced terrakion/keldeo's fighting move, he rp'd and it was game over because even though the offensive team was still relatively healthy, it simply could not withstand lando's brutal power.

zapdos is not a fucking landorus counter. bronzong is alright but stall has better options. defensive gyarados is horrible. you're saying that rotom-w + amoonguss is a prediction reliant method of handling lando, but again, prediction goes both ways. balanced / stall teams are absolutely destroyed by a half-decent landorus team/player, and if you think otherwise i'm inclined to think you haven't had that match-up too often. lando pretty much forces you to use celebi (and even that doesn't work if it's got u-turn) unless you want to lose, which is kind of a big deal.

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I could tell that something was wrong with your way of thinking from the moment that i saw the bolded phrase. Just because you think that balance and stall is absolutely destroyed by Landorus doesn't make it true, as if you start adapting you will see that stall teams do have ways to deal with it. I have played and seen games where this wasn't the case, and this is why i disagree with you. The problem lies in your blatant exaggeration of a problem which exists. I don't deny that U-turn Landorus is one of the biggest threats to stall teams (balanced teams can deal with it easier as they have some offensive pressure and Pokemon that can outspeed an unboosted Landorus) but i don't think that it is the huge problem that invalidates stall teams. It puts strain on the teambuilding aspect of stall teams sure, but so do many top tier OU Pokemon to some playstyles, and i just can't see why Landorus is better than them. As i said again, my stall team with defensive Gliscor or Landorus-T as their primary Terrakion counters is much more afraid of SD Rock Gem Terrakion than U-turn special landorus.

Zapdos is an excellent Landorus check, and a counter if SR is not up, but SR is assumed as a common battle scenario so let's just stick to excellent check. Modest Landorus can never 2HKO SpD Zapdos without SR, and even with SR up it has to predict the switch-in and use HP Ice, as otherwise it gets walled and LO stalled, even with SR up.

You say that after Landorus set-up against the choiced Keldeo or Terrakion Landorus cleans, and i can't help but wonder where is the priority user on your offensive team?

Statements such as ''Bronzong works but stall has better options'' and ''defensive Gyarados is horriblle'' are very close minded and are the reason why some people find Landorus to be broken. Bronzong is a perfectly viable Pokemon and can work fine on balanced teams, as well on stall teams with either Rest + Heal Bell support or Wish support. If you don't want to use him on your stall team to better deal with Landorus, that's fine, but you can't get away by saying ''there are better Pokemon than Bronzong'' or ''i don't want to only have Bronzong as an option to deal with Landrous for my stall team''. A Pokemon is picked to do some things for your team, so if Bronzong handles Landorus better than the other Pokemon that competes with Bronzong for the same teamslot while doing other things that your team needs (meaning not being a niche choice, only useful to beat a certain threat), this means that Bronzong is not a worse option than those Pokemon in this case. And no, stall teams don't have very little ways to deal with U-turn special Landorus as two solid checks (Amoonguss + Zapdos, Amoonguss + SpD Skarmory, Blissey + Gengar)), Bronzong, RestTalk Gyarados, Cresselia (sun stall), and even Scarf Gothitelle (useful in stall to act as a revenge killer and ghost trapper). As for RestTalk Gyarados, it is a good Pokemon on stall teams with Heal Bell or Wish support, and it deals with a ton of other Pokemon stall teams have problems with as well, such as SD Lucario, QD Volcarona, and SD Garchomp to an extend. The only real shortcoming of Gyarados (Heal Bell, Wish, and RestTalk make recovery not such a big issue) is Rapid Spin support, which is also the reason that RestTalk Gyardos is not an excellent defensive Pokemon just a good one.

fat ginganinja said:

Man can you like, back that up with some evidence. Like im just saying there are a fair amount of quality players saying they have reservations after Landorus-I and want it suspected, but then you go and claim almost no teams have trouble with Landorus-I. Are you saying they all play sun offence or something?

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I am not saying that Landorus is not good or can't do anything to offensive teams, i am saying that it is no different than the multitude of other offensive Pokemon that reside in OU. Of 'course it can threaten and sweep offensive teams if it can set-up and its checks and counters are gone, but this is true for many other offensive Pokemon as well, some of which are even better against offensive team due to their better Speed, such as Terrakion and Keldeo. When building an offensive team, i am much more troubled by those two than by RP Landorus, but this doesn't mean that Landorus is a non-issue that can't do anything to my team.

Also please stop assuming that RP Landorus has only two counters, as SpD Bronzong and RestTalk Gyarados are counters too, and both are relevant in the metagame.

Moderator

I must say that after reading this thread I started using Lando more and more and I love it. However, I don't have too much to say on the matter, but I want to elaborate on why "it's 4x weak to Ice Shard" is a really weak argument. Pokemon is not played in a vacuum. It takes smart (double)-switching and/or U-turn to get in the situation of getting your Weavile or Mamoswine in on Lando unscathed. That is why, as ginga said, being exceptionally weak to one priority move is not a sufficient argument. I'm more worried about Lando's base 101 Speed rather than weakness to Ice Shard, but even then out of the Rock Polish or U-turn special sets, only the U-turn set has a hard time with that and that's only if it stays in.

conflict: we don't drop things down to balance threats. that's not how we do things. if you want to change it, talk to the council, but as far as this thread is concerned, keep it focused on landorus. also i've been using the same team for almost 2 years and have had good results with it, but that doesn't mean i don't find bw mons broken.

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half the rationale behind dropping kyurem-b down to ou was to balance other big threats. many including myself argued that it would put a check on rain offense and sun offense as well, creating what some might call a more balanced metagame. i understand completely that the other half of the rationale behind unbanning it was because it simply wouldn't be overpowered in ou at the time, but i'm asking you to be realistic. we all know that people aren't supposed to vote to ban or unban something based on whether or not they feel the metagame will be better or worse with/without it. they're supposed to vote on if the suspect is broken or not, but often there's more behind a vote than just that, so when evaluating landorus-i, it ought to be fair to weigh the state of the metagame now vs the proposed alternate metagame (lacking land-i) as a factor in its suspect process.

non-sun offensive teams DO have trouble with landorus. i can't count the amount of times i've played/watched a game where i've seen an offensive team's latias get pursuited with ridiculous ease (if anyone says this isn't a valid argument because the latias user should be able to predict the ttar switch you're wrong because prediction goes both ways!) and then when lando got in on a choiced terrakion/keldeo's fighting move, he rp'd and it was game over because even though the offensive team was still relatively healthy, it simply could not withstand lando's brutal power.

zapdos is not a fucking landorus counter. bronzong is alright but stall has better options. defensive gyarados is horrible. you're saying that rotom-w + amoonguss is a prediction reliant method of handling lando, but again, prediction goes both ways. balanced / stall teams are absolutely destroyed by a half-decent landorus team/player, and if you think otherwise i'm inclined to think you haven't had that match-up too often. lando pretty much forces you to use celebi (and even that doesn't work if it's got u-turn) unless you want to lose, which is kind of a big deal.

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yeah offensive teams do have "trouble" with landorus, just like offensive teams have "trouble" with keldeo, yet both of these allegedly troublesome pokemon are still in ou. as for your checks and counters analysis, you start off by saying zapdos isn't a landorus counter. nobody is saying it is, but there's an argument to be made that it's quite a good check. i know eo (or ojama i forget) made a sand bulky offense team starring sdef zapdos, i used it and never lost a game to sheer force landorus because zapdos is taking maybe 42% from hp ice and zap's hp ice in return is a straight ohko. that's what i would call a check. sure, zapdos can't switch in on hp ice with rocks up, but that's the only scenario where it doesn't win the 1v1 fight against rp lando-i. gyarados is another pokemon that's a relatively common sight on rain offense teams and this thing 100% beats landorus-i. it can switch it with rocks and sand up on a hidden power ice or focus blast and still live the next one and ohko with waterfall. that's as hard of a counter as you're going to find in this day and age. you say prediction goes both ways with rotom-w and amoonguss but i know from experience that when you're at +2 and really close to sweeping a team with lando-i and in this sort of situation, you're much more likely to make the more conservative offensive predictions because you feel that you have it won and don't want to screw up, whereas the rotom-w user who is backed into a corner is more likely to make the tough plays and go out on a limb with their predictions. if you take human psychology into effect, rotom-w + amoonguss does a pretty good job checking lando-i. bronzong does a decent job and can very easily 2hko landorus-i with hp ice, even one hp ice can put lando in range to be taken out by mach punch loom or something of the like. you say balanced/stall teams are wrecked by a good lando player, but i think you're wrong there, especially if your stall team has more than 1 landorus check (i.e. celebi + zapdos which is what i used for a long time, or celebi + sdef jelli etc.) then it's really no trouble at all handling this thing. and, as always, there's ice shard. hopefully i've convinced some people that beating landorus-i isn't as hard as others would make it out to be.

As it lacks reliable recovery (no, Rest is not reliable recovery), it isn't hard to worn him down. It will need to 1) either use Rest + Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support 2) be backed by Wish support.

It would be a good counter if it had reliable recovery, but even if it had, it would be severely weakened after two Focus Blasts.

About RestTalk Gyarados, I don't see how it is relevant on the metagame. On all my battles, I've seen no one using this set, and even though it counters Landorus, it too lacks reliable recovery, and has another big problem; it is weak to Stealth Rock. Another problem is that it tends to compound weakness on stall teams. For example, if you plan to run Jellicent, or if you want to use it on rain stall.

What is true is that RP Landorus does not have Celebi and Latias as its only two counters. Other counters apart from the aforementioned Gyarados and Bronzong include the pink blobs (however, both aren't that great on the metagame and are too destroyed by Tyranitar, and Blissey is potentially 2HKOed by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock damage).

yeah offensive teams do have "trouble" with landorus, just like offensive teams have "trouble" with keldeo, yet both of these allegedly troublesome pokemon are still in ou.

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Can Keldeo boost its speed? (without Choice Scarf, as with that, Keldeo lacks the initial offensive pressure to run through teams and is locked on a move) Can Keldeo beat its usual counters without losing most of its power? Is Keldeo immune to Spikes? Is Keldeo immune to Life Orb recoil? Can Tyranitar defeat most of Keldeo's common counters?

Of course Keldeo can beat its usual counters without losing most of its power, with the Icy Wind HP Bug Expert Belt set. And yes, Tyranitar can defeat Keldeo's most common counters in Latias and Celebi. Landorus has the advantage of being immune to Spikes. Keldeo has the advantage of resisting Stealth Rock, a higher initial Speed, and the fact that its power is boosted tremendously in Rain.

But I just wanted to say that I do agree that Landorus-I is not suspect worthy. Before this thread I admit that I thought it was, but I've seen some very good arguments here against it that have made me change my mind. It's possibly the best sweeper in the OU metagame, but I don't think its broken. Lavos Spawn basically said what I was going to... I'll edit this post later but I have to go now n_n

Of course Keldeo can beat its usual counters without losing most of its power, with the Icy Wind HP Bug Expert Belt set. And yes, Tyranitar can defeat Keldeo's most common counters in Latias and Celebi. Landorus has the advantage of being immune to Spikes. Keldeo has the advantage of resisting Stealth Rock, a higher initial Speed, and the fact that its power is boosted tremendously in Rain.

But I just wanted to say that I do agree that Landorus-I is not suspect worthy. Before this thread I admit that I thought it was, but I've seen some very good arguments here against it that have made me change my mind. It's possibly the best sweeper in the OU metagame, but I don't think its broken. Lavos Spawn basically said what I was going to... I'll edit this post later but I have to go now n_n

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Tyranitar will have trouble trying to beat Tentacruel, especially if it is burned by Scald. The same applies to Toxicroak, which is not very common but it's much more commonly seen than Bronzong. Also, Jellicent, another common Keldeo counter, can potentially burn Tyranitar and render it useless. At least Tyranitar does not risk being burned if it try to swich on Latias and Celebi. Another uncommon Keldeo check, Ammoonguss, is not that bothered by Tyranitar, even though it receives heavy damage from its attacks.

Also, Landorus has two immunities, to Ground and Electric, which means that it gets more opportunities to setup (especially considering that both types are very common) unlike Keldeo. Also, the Expert Belt loses most of the power that a Choice Specs or Calm Mind set would have. Landorus does not have these problems; it just has to forgo Rock Polish for U-Turn, and this is sufficient to lure Latias and Celebi.

Finally, Landorus has the advantage of being immune to Spikes AS WELL AS Toxic Spikes and Life Orb recoil (if it does not use HP Ice).

non-sun offensive teams DO have trouble with landorus. i can't count the amount of times i've played/watched a game where i've seen an offensive team's latias get pursuited with ridiculous ease (if anyone says this isn't a valid argument because the latias user should be able to predict the ttar switch you're wrong because prediction goes both ways!) and then when lando got in on a choiced terrakion/keldeo's fighting move, he rp'd and it was game over because even though the offensive team was still relatively healthy, it simply could not withstand lando's brutal power.

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This exact situation happened with me. I could do nothing to stop Landorus from sweeping my entire team. It's easy to pair Latias to lure Tyranitar and this sort of thing happens.

Can Keldeo boost its speed? (without Choice Scarf, as with that, Keldeo lacks the initial offensive pressure to run through teams and is locked on a move) Can Keldeo beat its usual counters without losing most of its power? Is Keldeo immune to Spikes? Is Keldeo immune to Life Orb recoil? Can Tyranitar defeat most of Keldeo's common counters?

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Let's not take this path as it will bring zero positives to the discussion. As Cherub Agent already mentioned, Keldeo has many pros over Landorus too (he also forgot to mention how Keldeo doesn't care about most kinds of priority as it resists half of them) and it doesn't take a genious to get that Keldeo (especially the Scarf set) is a bigger threat for offensive teams than Landorus.

As for Bronzong and RestTalk Gyarados, it doesn't matter how reliable counters they are, it matters that as long as you support them well, they can and will wall Landorus. For how long you ask? It's up to you my friend. If Landorus is such a big threat to your team then don't give it many switch-in opportunities. I know that this is prediction based, but you have already assumed that Landorus has predicted the switch-in to Bronzong and used Focus Blast, as well as hit both Focus Blasts, so i think the other player deserves some wins in the prediction department assuming equal predicting skills.

And i don't really care about what you have seen on the ladder, as it is not a good indicator if something is good or not. I have not seen Dual Screens Azelf in the last two months i played in OU (and i play frequently in OU), does this mean it isn't good? No, as DS Azelf is one of the best DS users available, and DS HO is a very viable playstyle. The same can be said for RestTalk Gyarados.

How is RestTalk Gyarados relevant in the Metagame ? I'm not even sure Bronzong is, although it can be great and has some useful resistances. I'm even gonna be honest with you, and I think I've played enough games on Ladder these last few weeks to have a correct judgement about this : I've never seen a Rest Talk Gyarados. In additon, it's really bad in BW2 OU, especially with the new sleep mechanics. It's not even worth to talk about it, I got called out for talking about Sludge Wave while you guys are talking about RestTalk Gyarados. Let's be serious please.

I'm not saying Landorus-I should be Uber, but I'm really wondering, by reading some posts, if we are playing the same game? I read that Landorus was good but has many checks and counters, that it wasn't this good against offense, etc. Just an example here :

I am not saying that Landorus is not good or can't do anything to offensive teams, i am saying that it is no different than the multitude of other offensive Pokemon that reside in OU

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Can someone give me a Pokemon that is as good as Landorus in the "multitude of other offensive Pokemon that reside in OU" ? Keldeo is maybe the only one that can be compared with Landorus for their impact on the Metagame. Ground Moves are always extremely hard to handle and you just have something that can spam its Boosted Stab with no LO Recoil and you guys think it's not broken ? Blissey always has been considered as the best special wall (I know it's Chansey now thanks to Eviolite) and something that 2HKO it with a Non-Stab'd Move isn't considered as broken ? Or just a little bit ? Do you really think Landorus is an OverUsed Pokemon like the other ones ? This is unbelievable.

@Lavos : I'm the one who made that Team and I'm also the one who made the Politoed / Ferrothorn / Tentacruel / Zapdos / Landorus-T / Kyurem-B Team. As you can see it, I was using Zapdos as my Landorus counter/check or whatever you want. It does take 45% on HP Ice, I do agree. What if Stealth Rock is up ? It's a guaranteed 2HKO and please don't waste your time by posting "hey Stealth Rock isn't a valid argument". Don't even think about it, Stealth Rock is the best move of the game and has a huge impact on the Metagame and is probably the biggest one of the game. Both Teams are destroyed by Landorus-I and it is the reason why Stall is rarely used.

There is not even a way to stall Landorus as we can do it with Keldeo or other OU sweepers. Keldeo is affected by the Sandstorm, by Toxic Spikes and by Spikes. Landorus is only weak to Stealth Rock, what else do you want to make it broken ? It's not even the fact that it is able to OHKO / 2HKO 98% of the Metagame, it's an accumulation of broken stuff in its favor that makes it so good and so broken.

There is no possible discussion with defensive teams so it is not even worth to keep talking about that. I do agree with those who said that Landorus can be "controlled" with an offensive team, but you cannot make a mistake against it or it's most of the time over. But you also can't deny that when Landorus comes in, it does make a kill (maybe 90% of the time). It's extremely hard to resist a hit from Landorus when using an offensive Team.

To end this, I respect all your opinions. At least we can all agree about this point : it's amazingly strong and a bit broken.

I've been playing with Timid/Modest RP Landorus on my most recent team (I tried both) because I wanted to try it out. I've found that it's a really strong pokemon, but honestly...the fact that it has to rely on Focus Blast so often is such a pain in the ass. As a result, it just doesn't sweep as often as I'd like it to, and damn near everyone I face has some sort of counter for it on their team (which is understandable given that it's a top threat).

A lot of guys that Landorus has to use Focus Blast on are guys that will either OHKO him or severely dent him if it doesn't hit (ie. Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, BalloonTran), so if it misses during these crucial matchups his sweep is cut short. I know Landorus can just switch out against a bad matchup too, but as a result, you lose your Rock Polish, and it's not so easy to get it back when Ice and Water moves are so common. I just don't feel comfortable trying to sweep with Landorus half the time because Focus Blast is just way too unreliable on a pokemon that really can't afford to miss, and it's absolutely necessary to take out a lot of threats.

I dunno, for me personally, I just can't get behind the idea of suspecting something that has to rely on a move with such terrible accuracy to sweep, at least from my experience using him. Earth Power is awesome, but Focus Blast is just a shitty move in general. To suspect a sweeper, I feel like it needs to be able to reliably sweep, and actually checkmate the opponent easily with the right setup (and of course, if they're a suspect, the setup shouldn't need to be complicated). When you have to rely on a 70% accurate move for half the pokemon you face, that's definitely not checkmating anything.

I'd just like to point out that it IS in fact possible to stall out Landorus, as evidenced in this OU Conquest r1 battle beginning on turns 3-5 and turns 27-30. Stalling out Landorus, however, basically requires one of Latias, Celebi, maybe Gyarados, or one of several lower tiered Pokemon (Mandibuzz is a boss, check that bad boy out). Priority is an excellent way of dealing with Landorus, although that applies to several other Pokemon that WERE banned such as DPP Salamence and Sky Forme Shaymin. Straight-up walling it is pretty hard to do unless you're something like Cresselia or Mantine.

As an aside, Alexander is an awesome guy and I really hope he won't mind me using this battle as an example.

I've played with lando for a bit, both with a team centered around modest rock polish and one around +spd u-turn, and I've come to the conclusion that u-turn is FAR better for the current meta for a few reasons:

1. Lando has few set up opportunities. In the top 20, lando can set up on the following:

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That is 7 pokemon that do not pose a threat to lando, and 3 of them have to be choice locked, while 1 has to be of a defensive nature leaving, realistically, 3 pokemon to set up on without threat, and that is assuming the opposing team even has one or more of these. Now of course, by nature, lando can force many switches providing for more set up, but that relies upon the opponent mispredicting and may not even work out because...

2. Lando has too many great counters and checks. Celebi, a lati, spdef jellicent, gengar, and the list goes on. Not to mention that fact that it is vulnerable to all forms of priority and 4x weak to one. Even if one is to set up, it will have to be very late game against any competent player due to the huge amount of things that can either take a hit and ko, kill with priority, or outright wall lando. Yes, celebi can be pursuit trapped, as can the latis and such, but double switches go far and that does not eliminate the priority users and pokes that aren't 1hkod.

Now that isn't to say that rp lando isn't good, it is just too easily stopped in the current meta. I found lando to find much better use as a simple offensive pivot alongside scarf keldeo and a bit of rain support. With only rotom w/celebi/etc stopping keldeo from sweeping with surf, as well as stopping lando from earth powering everything, it serves as a great lure for the pony's counters and vice versa. While keldeo is somewhat of a liability while tenta/jelli exists, lando has the ability to simply u-turn out of the switch in and gain momentum while wearing away at the counter at the same time.

From what I've been reading on this thread and what I agree with it seems that Landorus is seen as really freaking powerful and versatile, but controllable and not unstoppable.
However, people have pointed out that Landorus isn't just a stand-alone threat. It provides team support by blowing holes in the other team early game with the U-Turn set for things like Keldeo. Or it waits to sweep until late game with the Rock Polish set after you have rocks up and Tyranitar has whittled down or eliminated its counters.

It seems to me that people don't think that Landorus is broken, but it kinda throws off the balance that 3 S tier(or very high A) mons just so happen to work together so nicely. Landorus being the one focused on because it is the *most* powerful of the three powerhouses.

Still doesn't mean Landorus, or even that team is broken though. They're just really good and you might not beat them with a team you slapped together in two minutes.

Moderator

How is RestTalk Gyarados relevant in the Metagame ? I'm not even sure Bronzong is, although it can be great and has some useful resistances. I'm even gonna be honest with you, and I think I've played enough games on Ladder these last few weeks to have a correct judgement about this : I've never seen a Rest Talk Gyarados. In additon, it's really bad in BW2 OU, especially with the new sleep mechanics. It's not even worth to talk about it, I got called out for talking about Sludge Wave while you guys are talking about RestTalk Gyarados. Let's be serious please.

I'm not saying Landorus-I should be Uber, but I'm really wondering, by reading some posts, if we are playing the same game? I read that Landorus was good but has many checks and counters, that it wasn't this good against offense, etc. Just an example here :

Can someone give me a Pokemon that is as good as Landorus in the "multitude of other offensive Pokemon that reside in OU" ? Keldeo is maybe the only one that can be compared with Landorus for their impact on the Metagame. Ground Moves are always extremely hard to handle and you just have something that can spam its Boosted Stab with no LO Recoil and you guys think it's not broken ? Blissey always has been considered as the best special wall (I know it's Chansey now thanks to Eviolite) and something that 2HKO it with a Non-Stab'd Move isn't considered as broken ? Or just a little bit ? Do you really think Landorus is an OverUsed Pokemon like the other ones ? This is unbelievable.

I do agree that you can be against its ban etc, I'm not even sure if I want it banned, but as ginganinja said it (and I really liked your post btw), stop posting shitty arguments and be honest sometimes : Landorus is a broken Pokemon.

@Lavos : I'm the one who made that Team and I'm also the one who made the Politoed / Ferrothorn / Tentacruel / Zapdos / Landorus-T / Kyurem-B Team. As you can see it, I was using Zapdos as my Landorus counter/check or whatever you want. It does take 45% on HP Ice, I do agree. What if Stealth Rock is up ? It's a guaranteed 2HKO and please don't waste your time by posting "hey Stealth Rock isn't a valid argument". Don't even think about it, Stealth Rock is the best move of the game and has a huge impact on the Metagame and is probably the biggest one of the game. Both Teams are destroyed by Landorus-I and it is the reason why Stall is rarely used.

There is not even a way to stall Landorus as we can do it with Keldeo or other OU sweepers. Keldeo is affected by the Sandstorm, by Toxic Spikes and by Spikes. Landorus is only weak to Stealth Rock, what else do you want to make it broken ? It's not even the fact that it is able to OHKO / 2HKO 98% of the Metagame, it's an accumulation of broken stuff in its favor that makes it so good and so broken.

There is no possible discussion with defensive teams so it is not even worth to keep talking about that. I do agree with those who said that Landorus can be "controlled" with an offensive team, but you cannot make a mistake against it or it's most of the time over. But you also can't deny that when Landorus comes in, it does make a kill (maybe 90% of the time). It's extremely hard to resist a hit from Landorus when using an offensive Team.

To end this, I respect all your opinions, but don't use wrong/shitty arguments to prove that Landorus isn't that broken. At least we can all agree about this point : it's amazingly strong and a bit broken.

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First 2 lines of this post pretty much summarize what I've been wanting to say. I mean you guys might as well just suggest Cresselia since it's just about as viable as SpDef Gyarados and Bronzong at this point in the metagame. It honestly just shows a lack of regard for defensive teams and how they're able to cope with Landorus. Everyone says they want a 'balanced' meta but is scared to ban shit that will lead to creating one, for whatever reason.

fat Alexwolf said:

You accuse me of making shitty arguments just because it suits you, and you also call bad whichever Pokemon you want, regardless if it actually good in OU or not. It doesn't matter if Gyarados has a niche in OU as a defensive Pokemon, and walls multiple dangerous offensive Pokemon, because in your mind a defensive Pokemon weak to SR that relies in RestTalk recovery can't be viable, but if you would ever bother using it you would see how wrong you are.

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I'm guessing you've never used SpDef Gyarados? There's a ridiculous amount of downside to it: SR Weak, relying on Sleep Talk to use the right move for you, Gen 5 sleep mechanics. I might as well just use a Jellicent because it walls most of the same shit but can spread status+taunt slower pokemon+spinblock, but it's 2hkod by Epower so I guess I better use Gyarados :)

I'm guessing you've never used SpDef Gyarados? There's a ridiculous amount of downside to it: SR Weak, relying on Sleep Talk to use the right move for you, Gen 5 sleep mechanics. I might as well just use a Jellicent because it walls most of the same shit but can spread status+taunt slower pokemon+spinblock, but it's 2hkod by Epower so I guess I better use Gyarados :)

Also from where do you get that i haven't used RestTalk Gyarados? I use him on many of my stall teams, as he just covers too much stuff, and if you give him the right support (Spin support, Heal Bell support, and maybe Ghost trapper) it can work wonders as with Intimidate factored in he is the most physically defensive Pokemon in OU, has good special bulk, good STAB and great power, phazing, and a great typing. His only real pros, but really big ones, are the lack of reliable recovery and the SR weakness.

So now that we establised that RestTalk Gyarados plays very different than Jellicent, let's see some relevant calculations of Timid and Modest Landorus's HP Ice and Focus Blast vs Gyarados:

As you can see Landorus cannot even 3HKO Gyarados after SR with the strongest possible move, Modest Focus Blast, which gives Gyarados plenty of breathing room and lets it take on Landorus even if it comes in with 60% life after SR. So after some of the people here get past the fact that RestTalk Gyarados is a viable and relevant Pokemon in the OU metagame, they will relaize that Landorus can almost never get past Gyarados, except if the opponent is using using other Pokemon to weaken Gyarados, something that can be said for any sweeper though.

I think people ignore the fact that Gyarados is essentially 95/110/100 defenses and physically defensive Gyarados is 95/120/100 compared to Jellicent's 100/70/105. Also, there is Gyarados's 125 base attack and 81 speed versus Jellicents wimpy 85 special attack and 60 speed. And the flying typing is really underrated. Most people just see SR weakness, but the ground+spikes immunity and grass neutrality make a difference.

Anyway, to tie this into the actual point of the thread, Gyarados counters Landorus and can have some decent(not great) match ups against its partners in crime, Tyranitar and Keldeo. I agree with alexwolf, I don't see why it can't be used as a supplementary argument to Landorus not being broken. It's not like Gyarados is floating around in NU...

Landorus doesn't even NEED to have ANY counters to not be broken, but to see a hard counter floating around in OU as well as lots of semi-reliable counters and loads of checks kind of takes away from the idea of it being broken.

Moderator

That is 7 pokemon that do not pose a threat to lando, and 3 of them have to be choice locked, while 1 has to be of a defensive nature leaving, realistically, 3 pokemon to set up on without threat, and that is assuming the opposing team even has one or more of these. Now of course, by nature, lando can force many switches providing for more set up, but that relies upon the opponent mispredicting and may not even work out because...

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Trouble is, its SLIGHTY more than that.

I took a gander at Honkos calc, just to see what Landorus-I could and could not survive. For instance, its not KOed by SDef Heatrans lava Plume (I know it can Roar its just an example of its bulk which you underrate), it can shrug off a Stone Edge from Landorus-T, take Gyro Balls from Ferrothorn etc etc. I could list them all, (for instance a large number of Scalds don't KO) or you could just use Honkos calculator and amend that list of yours a little better. Remember, 75% of its damaging attacks don't trigger LO recoil, meaning it can easily sweep on low health, unlike say, a Lucario which has to watch out for LO eating away at its health.

Your list also ignores the mons Landorus-I can force out, and I really dislike arguments that claim your x4 ground weak mon is going to stay in against a Landorus-I or whatever. Sure, you can stay in, or I could attack, or you could switch and I could set up and we go around and around and by the end of it its ridiculous. The point is, in a proper battle, you are most likely not staying in, because the risk reward factor is WAY to high. When players get decently strong, the risk reward factor is something that comes up quite a lot (for instance I have seen Heist and kd24 mention it in this forum) and THAT is how Landorus-I gets its set up oppotunities. Also, many of the mons you list are pretty darn common (Scizor / Tar / Keldeo / Terrakion / Jirachi) so I don't thik you can claim that Landorus-I struggles at setting up.

I sort of agree with your point about its checks tho.

Also just a note this, but I really think people need to be aware of the choices here. To be clear, the purpose of this thread is to decide whether landorus-I deserves to be considered a suspect, it is NOT a thread to discuss whether it deserves to be banned to Ubers. They are 2 entirely different things (for instance, I think Landorus-I is suspect worthy but not Uber) so please please please remember this as I am seeing many posts that say "Landorus-I is not broken I can handle it just fine with x, y and z". Just remember that something being suspected does not always equate to a ban (just look at Keldeo).

There were 4 deleted posts in a row just now, I think this thread has been a good source of discussion so far so I just want to lay out what you shouldn't be doing going forward:

- Questioning the Suspect Process in this thread. I'm not affiliated with Council and at the end of the day, it's their decision if we apply the suspect process to Landorus. I'd like to think a few members have gone from absolutely not to now considering it/testing it, this thread is a resource for us to have discussion as much as it is a resource for them to decide if it should be a suspect. If you don't like the idea of this thread and believe Landorus should be suspected right away, then you're just wasting your time. If you don't like this thread because you believe testing Landorus would be a waste of time, then just post and explain why. There's a time and place for questioning the process, this isn't it atm.

- This is not about Drizzle or retesting other suspects. There's no reason to discuss them in this thread because you're just adding a layer to debate that gets in the way of the topic at hand.

To the Landorus discussion at hand, my issue with Rest Stalk Gyarados is really the same issue I have with Zapdos being noted as a hard counter for Tornadus-T in that discussion. While usage doesn't dictate something being bad, Zapdos wasn't used because of the severe issues to had in relation to what is actually used in the metagame. It wasn't a great defensive pivot because of its common weaknesses, Stealth Rock weakness, and vulnerability to threats like Ferrothorn. Gyarados isn't used defensively for similar reasons. Alexwolf posted what it can check or counter and its an impressive list but in the same way Zapdos could devastate a ton of Pokemon, Gyarados is still weak to Stealth Rock, vulnerable to offensive threats because of its only healing being Rest (which in turn forces you to rely on Sleep Talk, and basically means you're asleep the entire match as they'll bring something in to force you out while Resting), and vulnerable to defensive threats like Ferrothorn, Skarm, etc who can use Gyarados for way too easy set up.

I like Gyarados (in fact I posted a BW2 OU RMT featuring it) and I don't think its "bad" the same way I never thought Zapdos was "bad". But in my opinion, its cons outweighed the pros and I eventually shifted towards different Pokemon to replace it. I would find it similar to mentioning Mesprit as someone did - it might get the job done and could theoretically counter a lot of Pokemom in OU, but think of the Pokemon as a whole in OU right now and how it really functions.

I think at the end of the day, most of us found Jirachi (and Rotom-W to an extent) the only reliable "answer" to Tornadus-T despite there being reliable answers like Zapdos or Stunfisk, only because of how they functioned in OU. I find the relationship between Landorus and Rest Stalk Gyarados (who like Zapdos is universally gone, 3% of Gyarados were Rest in Suspect stats, 4% in OU w/ Deoxys) the same.

Stalling out Landorus, however, basically requires one of Latias, Celebi, maybe Gyarados, or one of several lower tiered Pokemon (Mandibuzz is a boss, check that bad boy out)

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YES. I am happy I am not officially alone on the Mandibuzz bandwagon in OU. The vulture can tank so many SE hits on the special side its crazy.

On the topic of Landorus, yea, it hits like Optimus Prime. I don't even think it running a Modest nature is a problem for its speed, not because it runs Rock Polish, but because most base 100's don't run a speed-boosting nature (Volcarona, Tentacruel, Salamence, Victini, Jirachi, Celebi, defensive Mew and Shaymin). The only ones that do and have some sort of viability in OU are Ninetales and Zapdos, where the former cannot switch in at all and can't win 1 on 1 while the ladder will be running a specially defensive spread to combat Landorus now. Even the pokemon with base speeds somewhere in the 90's that would be able to out-speed a Modest Lando with a speed-boosting nature normally run neutral speed natures (Haxorus, Hydreigon, Darmanitan, Kyurem-B, Gliscor, Sharpedo, Yanmega, Meloetta, Xatu, Lucario, Moltres, and Landorus-T) for more power. I would say its safe to say that there are many could-be threats to Landorus if these pokemon ran speed-boosting natures, but in turn if they now chose to run Jolly/Timid because of Lando running Modest, would that be over-centralizing and warrant at least a suspect test?

Personally, I look at Landorus as a "suspect to be suspected" and agree with ginga that a suspect test should be ran for Landorus, but I doubt it will get the boot to Ubers.

If you think that Gyarados checks or counters Dragonite, Garchomp, Landorus-T and Mamoswine we're having a big problem here. So according to you Gyarados checks the whole Metagame, seems legit knowing that it's weak to Stealth Rock, weaken by the new sleep mechanics and affected by Sandstorm. Did you realize that Gyarados is the only RestTalker of the OU Metagame ? Rest + Sleep Talk suck in BW2 so if you think that Gyarados checks Dragonite, Volcarona (2HKO at +1 with Fire Blast), Garchomp, Mamoswine and Landorus-T, you're absolutely wrong. You're only counting on luck when using RestTalk Gyarados which is the biggest problem with every RestTalk Set. How is something that get 2HKO'd by Outrage from Dragonite / Garchomp at +0 a check. In addition, what does Gyarados do in return? Absolutely nothing and you're forced to use Rest too much time which makes it even worse. RestTalk Gyarados is a dead weight especially in the current Metagame where Volturn Teams are often used. Also it's very funny to see you claim that Gyarados counters all those threats because the only thing it can do in return is Roar or Waterfall. I'm not saying Gyarados doesn't counter Landorus-I because it actually does, but don't try to prove that Gyarados is amazing because it's absolutely not good in BW2.

While Zapdos is good in BW2 although it's weak to Stealth Rock + affected by the Sandstorm, RestTalk Gyarados is not. Zapdos has a reliable recovery move, a great Special Attack, an interesting coverage and a useful Stab known as Thunderbolt/VoltSwitch. While Gyarados is really easy to check for every offensive Team / defensive Team (it is so useless against Stalls but whatever), Zapdos can be extremely painful to kill and to check. In addition, Zapdos gets Pressure which makes it even more annoying. Zapdos can take hits and stall out the opponent team, Gyarados isn't even able to take hits so I don't even know why we are talking about it.

@Articblast : Confirming about Mandibuzz. I've faced a Specially Defensive Mandibuzz once and it was really hard to take down. It's only 3HKO'd by HP Ice from Modest Landorus and has a few chances to not be 2HKO'd by HP Ice after Stealth Rock. In addition, it doesn't get affected by Sandstorm damage which helps it a lot. Though I'm a bit sceptic about it's ability to check other OU Top Threats, but maybe I'm wrong.

Seconding what ginganinja said in the last part of his post. People need to understand that we're only discussing about suspecting Landorus-I or not, we aren't banning it if we suspect it.

I fall in the "this is probably the best attacker in the metagame but isn't quite broken" camp. I can definitely see why people want it suspected, of course, and I'm fine with that happening, but in the end I feel it's just fine in OU. Landorus is extremely daunting to switch into, but I wouldn't say it's "unpredictable". For one, Landorus is going to be running the "same" set 90% of the time. (Obviously Earth Power | Focus Blast | Hidden Power Ice | Rock Polish / U-turn). Frankly I don't even really give physical Landorus-I any consideration anymore unless I notice the rest of my opponent's team is very Volcarona-weak, and I won't even need to think about that when Pokeballs are implemented. (Seriously people are still talking about SD Landorus-I as if that's still a thing? This isn't BW1 people.) Sure you might have to be careful about Landorus U-turning your Celebi, but much like it's a bad idea to run only Latias as your answer to Keldeo, you should have secondary answers to Landorus-I just by merit of how absurdly deadly it is.

Really the two big issues I find with Landorus are its raw power and Tyranitar. As I've mentioned in other threads, Tyranitar does come with its own costs to use, and while it's certainly very relevant to this conversation I don't think its trapper abilities push Landorus over the edge. Back to the power issue: Landorus has an extremely spammable STAB move that is very dangerous to switch into if you don't resist it. That same powerful move does have drawbacks of course because of immunities, but not many things can take advantage of that very well. Usually Landorus will need to be revenge-killed if you lack a direct answer, which I am fine with.

One interesting thing I haven't seen mentioned much (since it came up so much in the Tornadus-T debates) is how relatively hard to wear down Landorus is. Sand Stream immunity, Spikes immunity, no Life Orb recoil on most moves, etc. It's easier to whittle down when it comes in to tank a U-turn or something, of course, but for something with that much raw power it's surprising how much survivability Landorus can have.

Two metagame trends I've noticed: 1) DD Gyarados is pretty good right now, since Landorus and Keldeo are an extremely common offensive core and they can struggle against it, and 2) Cresselia shitstomps Landorus, so if your sun teams are having problems with it then give that a try.

Hmm I don't think it is a suspect. It has good versatility but the ice and water weakness really hurts it. Lati@s is a hard counter to it because it out speeds the physical sets and if it u-turns.... then you know its a physical set. It it rock polishes then you know it is a rock polish set. Yes land-i can switch out. Every pokemon can. Its sets are extremely dangerous when set up.... However the time that it takes for it to set up is critical. The offensive pace of the metagame allows the risk of sacrificing a pokemon to see what set they have. After all.... it isn't really switching into much after SR anyway and if it comes in for a revenge kill/set up/u-turn then we can just stay in and the burden is on the land-i player to make the right decision or take damage or get knocked out. Also, It is one of the best cases of 4 move syndrome in BW2. it is good (like most things in BW2) but not that good.

Moderator

Nah, there is a recoil on U-Turn from special Landorus. Thus, you must check the damages I guess to know which set is running Landorus.

I agree totally with suspecting it. And let the voters decide.
I believe the pressure a core with Landorus+Keldeo+Pursuiter can put is just too big. Especially with U-Turn. I was testing a weatherless team and at the moment I'm at the top of the PS ladder undeafeated, to be honest I want to cry when I see people claiming that U-Turn lower the overall power of Landorus. It is useless to have dozen of sweepers if they are not able to break a single wall. Considering the massiv power that Keldeo enjoys, Landorus is, to me, one of the key lures making the poney totally overpowered because almost uncounterable by OU standards.

And we can turn it upside down, it works perfectly fine with an Hidden Power Bug Keldeo and RP Landorus. Those two work too well together.

For Landorus, it is surely the most powerful special attacker in its own right at the moment and I see no solid argument discouraging me from seeing a suspect occur.
Gyarados Rest Talk.. Zapdos.. Err.. Why not ? God thanks we will always be able to find random sets coming out of nowhere to counter a pokemon. I find it funny that I always discover them on this kind of topic, and never during the games I play. Anyway, if that's all you got, I think that the logical next step is a Landorus's suspect.

Fun fact: a neutral Focus Blast out-damages any x2 effective Hidden Power.
So after Stealth Rock, Max/Max Careful Mandibuzz has a chance to be 2HKOed by Focus Blast even after Lefties. SD/Work Up Virizion is also 2HKOed by Focus Blast even tho it can take HP Ice pretty well so it will be hard-pressed to switch-in twice.

After STAB Earth Power is only 15 Base Power stronger than Focus Blast so Landorus can throw around either one and still do way too much damage.
Sheer Force is dumb.

My big issue with Landorus is that it limits team-building pretty harshly. It's bad enough when I can count the number of reliable checks on one hand but the trouble really comes from having to use an additional Pokemon to take out Landorus' teammate that removes most of those counters. It's been said plenty but Celebi and Latias are just snacks to Tyranitar and Celebi is just a free switch for a lot of nasty Pokemon, namely Dragons. On the two teams I use most, I can get away with not having one of those counters because one team has 6 Pokemon Landorus can't even switch into and the other has Custap Wobbuffet and Chlorophyll-mons but if I stray away from those styles, team building is a nightmare. Team-building is my favorite part of Pokemon because, if you have the skill, you go into "the lab" and come out with something really creative that you can be proud of when it works. Landorus forces you to run very specific Pokemon to beat it and a lot of the time, they don't fall into the strategy you want to employ or they become a giant hole in your team that may stop Landorus but invites everything you don't want to see in battle.

Landorus is the only Pokemon in OU that I can think of that demands a specific counter that much. To an extent, Terrakion has a similar effect on team building but the number of Pokemon that check or counter it is far higher to the point that you'll probably have something to beat it even without specifically needing to think about Terrakion and even when you do, there's at least enough variety that doesn't derail your team's focus at all.