Look at it from my point of view. We're in a rating topic where we rate how we feel about certain characters value based on our own personal interpretations of their value. I made a rating that was among the lower ratings. Now I'm being told I'm wrong and I should be rating her lower and it's become a full-on argument because a bunch of tier players can't stand the notion that someone thinks Lucia is more valuable than Haar.

Also, the funny thing is, it often is the 'world' against me with the 'world' acting like a group of incomprehensible morons who feel that they're right when they can't even grasp simple points and arguments.

So if such a thing is true and I do have such a complex, then don't you think siding against me and telling me I'm a wrong, stupid, idiot is only going to reinforce such an idea and make it worse? This 'complex' didn't spring from nowhere and isn't self-sustaining after all.

Snowy_One, I don't give a damn what numeric scores you award certain units. But when you post something that is factually incorrect (such as: Lucia has better combat than Haar), I'm going to call you out on it. I analyzed enemy data for chapter 27 to back up my assertion that Haar's combat is better than Lucia's. My hope was that you would examine the facts, and reach the appropriate conclusion. You did not. I didn't craft this argument solely for your benefit; I was curious myself. And I was actually surprised how useful the Runesword came to be in Lucia's hands. Lucia's offensive potential is generally underestimated. It's certainly better than the likes of Volke, Janaff, and Ulki. But it is not better than Haar's.

Attacking far more is irrelevant when Haar is avoiding a counter most of the time, thus improving his durability.

If Haar only gained a whopping 2 Levels (Level 13) before Lucia joins, Haar has 32 Atk with the Brave Axe. Lucia with her Silver Dildo has 33. Yes, it's true that Haar loses in Atk by one in this scenario, but Lucia also has to take a weapon that has eighteen might to beat Haar's Atk when he's wielding 10. Let's also not forget this excludes ranged weaponry, where Lucia's only answers are Wind Sword and Runesword, which are probably given to Mia with Spirit Dusts.

Haar will do roughly 30 damage with the Laguz Axe, while Lucia does 30 with the Silver Dildo or Laguzslayer.

I also rounded down on Haar's Str, too. Granted, Lucia has the minor crit advantage, which would give her a slight edge here over Haar offensively.

Defensively, the Cat's 27 Atk 9HKOes Haar while it 3HKOes Lucia.

Also, consider that Haar's single strike means that the Cats barely need to be scratched (12 damage) in order to KO them in one hit. For Lucia to do the same, the Cat has to suffer 27 damage. To compare, base Bastian with a Fire tome does 16 damage - more than enough for Haar to follow-up with a KO.

Oh yeah, by the way, consider me generous, since I could've named the one with 49 HP | 13 Def.

Haar naturally doubles these enemies regardless, so now we could pull out forges. Forged Hand Axes have 12 Mt while forged Steel Axe has 16. Remember that Haar has 22.8 Str.

Even calculating the toughest Warrior, Haar ORKOes with the Steel Axe forge. If Haar gains a Str proc, he ORKOes the Lv 6-7 Warriors with the Hand Axe forge, thus never receiving a counterattack from them. If Lucia has her Silver Dildo out, she misses the ORKO (22 damage per strike).

Haar will take a 9HKO once again while Lucia is 3HKOed again. Though, if you're asking Avoid... Lucia faces 22% Displayed. Then again, Haar faces 46% Displayed, so he can roughly dodge at least 1 out of 2 timees.

Brave Lance has 11 Mt somehow... but no matter, Haar ORKOes them with the Brave weapons. Lucia misses doubling on this one, so the Brave Sword is to be called upon. By the power of the Gods she does...

...26 damage.

Haar takes, at worst with the Brave Lance equipped, 18 damage. Lucia, if struck upon, would die even if critical was only x2. Even though the Swordmaster doubles Haar, 36 damage is certainly not KOing Haar.

Why I named the strongest? The others are slow enough for Haar to double and ORKO with Steel Axe forge.

This is the one where Haar might lose since the most he can do is 38 damage while Lucia can critical and do 36 damage at worst. Though, if Haar is given the Speedwing, he doubles and ORKOes this fellow too.

Lucia, once again, is 3HKOed while Haar takes... 3 damage, or a 17HKO.

tl;dr - pretty much what aku chi stated. Haar can usually match Lucia's combat at worst or do better in most scenarios. With the Brave weapons, Haar's durability does nothing but improve further as well. Meanwhile, Lucia is reliant on Silver Dildos to match Haar's offense, which have only been available for 3 chapters.

It's also very difficult to at least match Haar in durability. Even Jill, who is probably the second closest flying-wise, doesn't obtain 21 Def naturally until 20/12 and match Haar's base HP until 20/19. That says a lot.

Also, one speedwing? Why would I hold onto something like that for that long just so Haar can take it? Might as well hold on to a energy drop for Lucia if that's the case.

Well, if you really wanted to you could hold onto both Speedwings, but we aren't going to sandbag Lucia much further than what we are already.

Lucia with the drop doesn't change a whole lot to be honest. She still fails to ORKO the Cats (she goes from 30 damage to 34, out of 42) and she still can't ORKO that Halberdier (40 damage out of 42 HP). Hell, she still can't ORKO the Swordmaster I mentioned with the Brave Sword (30/32 HP). The only thing that drastically changes is:

- She ORKOes the Warriors I mentioned. Not the tougher ones; they're still a little out of her reach (she does 46 damage to 13 Def ones).- She ORKOes the Laguzslayer Swordmaster.- She ORKOes the Knight Killer Halberdier.

She'll also do 26 damage to Gromell if she can somehow encounter him, so she 2RKOes... though I think at that point he would fly off and use the Elixir. I don't quite recall his AI in this scenario. Op, scratch that - this dude has Resolve. She would miss doubling him after that.

So it does change a little bit, but she still fails to take more than roughly 4 blows out of the entire encounter. Not to mention Haar could also take that Energy Drop and ORKO the tough Halberdier here and prop a 2RKO on Gromell just like Lucia.

Other units who can use axes want it as well, especially since they can both avoid counters and manage to deal four attacks-worth of damage instead of Haar's puny two.

Yes, but how many of those units, in Chapter 25, can fly and use the Brave Axe.

...Wait...

...you can only mention Haar?

The only possible unit that could probably use it here is Boyd with Vantage, but that assumes a) we're using Boyd, b) we're using Vantage on Boyd, and c) he's being ferried to the destination. Haar can (roughly) replicate what Boyd is doing with Vantage on him as well, though even without it, Haar isn't really in huge amounts of fear of dying anyway.

Also, the only reason you would take the Brave weapons away from Haar is to avoid counterattacks, but that doesn't completely change that they're likely taking counterattacks on the Enemy Phase to begin with. If Titania ORKOes with Brave Axe and ORKOes with the Silver Axe forge, why does it matter that she puts on the Brave Axe on Player Phase when it requires a second unit to come over there and trade the weapons around to possibly take blows on the Enemy Phase? Not that, in the scenario of Chapter 25, your Paladins are doing a whole lot since the terrain is kind of bending against them at the moment. We don't want to exactly waste the weapons; we want to put these weapons to good use. Putting them on Boyd w/Vantage or Haar is good use. Putting them on Titania to avoid a counterattack for a single turn isn't exactly the most optimal use.

So either a silver forge, of which I have multiple

You have a possible of 3 Silver forges.

You have a line of Paladins and flying units that would like them for some of the tougher enemies around here.

I honestly don't think Lucia crosses my mind as the first recipient of those items.

If Haar takes a weapon with enough MT to beat Lucia, Lucia beats him because he now can't double. If he takes a weapon that allows him to double, Lucia has more MT. Either way, Haar looses.

Uh, bullshit.

- Lucia needs to take a Silver Dildo to beat Brave Lance Haar's Atk by a single point.- Haar can ORKO enemies with a Steel Axe forge that are slow enough. Enemies like that do exist in the game.- Haar still has extra Mov, durability, and re-move.

I don't see Lucia winning this other than, in situations where they both never ORKO an enemy, she has a chance to proc a critical attack.

So you're willing to dump BEXP on Haar, a unit you have for only a few chapters, but not Rolf? Especially since Haar is still lack-luster after the dump.

...

When I pointed out that Rolf's combat was relatively equal to Astrid's, people cried bloody murder and did everything they could to denounce it, including things like movement and joining level. I'm just going to return the favor here.

...

If we're going to talk 'who can benefit the most' then, once again, why not dump a load of BEXP on Rolf? He certainly gets the most out of it at his joining time.

There are a slew of issues with Rolf in this game:

- He needs BEXP to be even close to "competent" (no, chipping an enemy does not provide saving graces). To be fair, so does Astrid, but when she chips she also obtains a whopping 30 CEXP. Rolf in his chapter gains roughly half for chipping an enemy.- He is only allowed to attack once per turn, except in the rare scenarios that Reyson refreshes him (which to ask, why) or if a bow user is in range of him in the Enemy Phase (or possibly a Sage that can only strike him from 2 range). Yes, once again, so does Astrid, but that only is the scenario in an unpromoted state of Astrid.- Rolf does not have Paladin-like movement like Astrid does.- Rolf lacks Paragon like Astrid has, which means BEXP-plowing is a cheaper investment.- BEXP is a little more scarce if we're doing things like forcing a swallow on Jill and / or Marcia (especially both) in comparison to later in the game, where the only unit that might actually need it is Ike if he's barely been touched.

Of course one can justify using Rolf and possibly putting BEXP on him to become a slightly better unit (or at least one that can actually be trained and be slightly self-sufficient) and actually have victories on some units such as Ena, Bastian, and the aforementioned Lucia. Even so, taking on Astrid, a unit that takes roughly half the cost of using Rolf, is damn-near suicide.

Rolf could be used, but in a game where you can take any horse / flier into Jebus Christ mode, it's almost irrelevant. Even Soren and Ilyana have closer claims to BEXP before Rolf.

Because Haar is going to only be around for a scarce few chapters. I'm better off giving the wing to someone like Mordi who will be around for much longer than a flier who is simply not going to exist and will be of debatable (at best) value.

You also went on a rant how Mordecai sucks because most people value him merely as a shover / smiter.

Giving the wing to Mordecai isn't exactly an awesome idea, either. It still takes some time for Mordecai to transform and actually obtain those uses, and the Demi Band cuts some of his power back. By the time the Demi Band arrives, Mordecai is probably all but useful. Maurim arrives and pretty much shreds him in offensive parameters by a mile; especially in the scenario that Mordecai probably didn't get much CEXP to begin with (unless he used the Laguz Stone).

Also, the generals would love the brave lances as would Devdan.

I'm going to pretend that you didn't mention a 6 Mov unit that is difficult to Shove around as a counterargument for Brave weapons.

As for Devdan, he would need roughly 12 levels to even match Haar's Str. His Spd problems at that point would almost be irrelevant, since he would have 20.8 Spd at that point.

Titania doesn't benefit much more than with a normal silver.

That depends on how much Titania has also been used as well.

...I'm going to take a stray guess and say by Chapter 26 she would be roughly Level 15, and she would have roughly 7 levels with the Str band and 8 with the Knight Ward.

There are situations where Titania can use the Silver forge, since it frees her from needing the support units around her at all times and thus can sort of charge further ahead. Furthermore, there's also the bosses where the forges can prove useful. In the example of Hafeed:

She would do 22 damage with the Steel Axe forge. With the Silver, it climbs to roughly 32. Granted, it isn't a ORKO, but it's a 2RKO here at least.

Of course, with such a mega-team, using another, late-joining flier who needs BEXP is flat out stupid and unneeded

Uh if anything, it's smarter to just give him the BEXP and just let him tear everything apart with the team. He flies, his bases are decent, a Speedwing could be given to him if you want, and he has the Movment like the mega-team. I would rather have Haar on the team in a mega-team than Lucia in a mega-team.

But that would just mean a crushing blow to Lucia.

Astrid without EP and worse move for the majority of the game vs. a sluggish Jill who barely even exists. I'll take the Astrid please

Wut?

I would still take the sluggish Jill any day of the week. He's not even that sluggish. Even Bastian, who is slower than Haar, can double some units for fucks sake.

In fact, let's just re-emphasize why that is:

No. I'm telling you that Lucia doesn't even win offense against Haar. Haar beats Lucia's offense and crushes her durability and mobility. Haar also has utility irrespective of his combat by virtue of being the most durable unit with the best movement type (only Jill is close). Haar can execute rescue-drops in hot areas in C25 and C28. You can use Lucia if you like. But know that Haar is just plain better, no matter how you look at it.

Yeah, Snowy, I'm sure that calling you out on your massive victim complex feeds into it no less than pitying you and reassuring you that you're actually in the right (read: you're not) every single time you parade around your butthurt vendetta.

Yeah, Snowy, I'm sure that calling you out on your massive victim complex feeds into it no less than pitying you and reassuring you that you're actually in the right (read: you're not) every single time you parade around your butthurt vendetta.

So... If someone feels they are being unfairly singled out, you think that trying to reassure and stand up for them will make them feel like they are being unfairly singled out just as much as pointing and laughing at them with the rest of the group? Let me guess, if a kid has a problem with bullying, you also think it's better to beat up on them than to seek aid from an adult or even stand up for them as well.

Snowy_One, I don't give a damn what numeric scores you award certain units. But when you post something that is factually incorrect (such as: Lucia has better combat than Haar), I'm going to call you out on it. I analyzed enemy data for chapter 27 to back up my assertion that Haar's combat is better than Lucia's. My hope was that you would examine the facts, and reach the appropriate conclusion. You did not. I didn't craft this argument solely for your benefit; I was curious myself. And I was actually surprised how useful the Runesword came to be in Lucia's hands. Lucia's offensive potential is generally underestimated. It's certainly better than the likes of Volke, Janaff, and Ulki. But it is not better than Haar's.

I don't approve of your numbers because you spent a large amount of BEXP to get Haar up to those levels. Maybe if it was just you, I might have been willing to accept them, but with Colonel M's prior refusal/hypocrisy in the tiers towards the spending of BEXP on anyone who is not absolutely perfect for LTC play, I cannot accept that someone would deny one bad unit BEXP, then spend more BEXP on a unit that could be argued to be worse (based on how much one values joining time) in order to get him to be better than another bad unit who needs less. Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

So... If someone feels they are being unfairly singled out, you think that trying to reassure and stand up for them will make them feel like they are being unfairly singled out just as much as pointing and laughing at them with the rest of the group? Let me guess, if a kid has a problem with bullying, you also think it's better to beat up on them than to seek aid from an adult or even stand up for them as well.

Actually yes. It's psychologically proven that by playing into a need it just reinforces the behavior because the person gets the idea that by doing said behavior it will be beneficial. For example when a child is afraid of lighting you shouldn't comfort him, since he'll just keep being afraid. Rather, you should tell the child to not be afraid or ignore the behavior. As for bullying, the worst thing to possibly do is confront the bullies, actually even worse is have someone else do it. And reacting to the bullies is just going to keep them doing it. The best thing to do is just ignore them.

I don't approve of your numbers because you spent a large amount of BEXP to get Haar up to those levels. Maybe if it was just you, I might have been willing to accept them, but with Colonel M's prior refusal/hypocrisy in the tiers towards the spending of BEXP on anyone who is not absolutely perfect for LTC play, I cannot accept that someone would deny one bad unit BEXP, then spend more BEXP on a unit that could be argued to be worse (based on how much one values joining time) in order to get him to be better than another bad unit who needs less. Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

He didn't spend that much bexp. Haar joins half way through chapter 23. That gives him 3.5 chapters to gain 5 levels. So to do that all he'd need is a level or two of bexp. With actually being able to get EP exposure, Haar can get a decent amount of cexp.

I don't approve of your numbers because you spent a large amount of BEXP to get Haar up to those levels. Maybe if it was just you, I might have been willing to accept them, but with Colonel M's prior refusal/hypocrisy in the tiers towards the spending of BEXP on anyone who is not absolutely perfect for LTC play, I cannot accept that someone would deny one bad unit BEXP, then spend more BEXP on a unit that could be argued to be worse (based on how much one values joining time) in order to get him to be better than another bad unit who needs less. Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

I wasn't that hypocritical with it.

It's very simple: Haar doesn't need BEXP, and even if he got BEXP, he's still one of your better units to receive it. The problem lies that even if Rolf obtains BEXP, it will take a significant amount to get him to this stage that's called "par". Haar is already par. In fact, he's arguably above par.

I can give Rolf BEXP, but it will not magically give him a mount nor will it give him an Enemy Phase. He has availability, which is an advantage, and it can be used against Lucia and Bastain, but Lucia and Bastian only require dire minimal resources (forges or in Bastian's case siege tomes) to do something useful. Then again, Rolf changes almost nothing either. He can be useful on a less-efficient playthrough and if you're willing to invest roughly 1K BEXP. That doesn't mean someone like Lucia or Bastian is, either (in fact like Rolf their contributions are almost negligible). Haar can actually contribute to an efficiency playthrough at little cost.

There is no real hypocrisy here. I did not give Haar a single BEXP level whatsoever.

Actually, I see your point now. Against foes that both Lucia and Haar double Haar will win and against foes that Haar doesn't double, the Brave Axe will allow him to land two attacks, and against the foes Lucia doesn't double he will get in two attacks. So, with the brave axe, he wins. Better defenses, joining time, and movement... Fine. I still maintain that the brave axe is a irreplacable weapon and shouldn't be given to Haar and if it is given to him it will break before long, meaning forges are needed.

Level 13 Haar W/ Forged Silver Axe: MT 43: AS: 17

Level 14 Lucia W/ Forged Silver: MT: 34, AS: 25

Seems to me the main factor will be doubling. When Haar doubles, he will win. When Lucia doubles and he doesn't, she will win.

Random Knight: 34 HP, 20 Def, 9 Res, 5 AS

Haar doubles, he wins... Let's just skip the ones he's fast enough to double and summarize it at the end.

Toughest Swordmaster: 36 HP, 11 Def, 22 AS

Neither double, but I'm not sure I want to call this a 'Haar win' as he will have trouble hitting. If he does, he wins though.

That... was not as decisive as I thought it was going to be. Lucia only managed to 1RKO one foe Haar couldn't and, hawk aside, most of her damage leads were minor. While I would say she still 'does' have a better offense (she dealt more damage after all), I appear to have vastly underestimated how much damage Haar dealt in a single strike and overestimated how much she dealt making the 'win' insignificant 90% of the time or so.

I was wrong. Haar > Lucia and she is not redeemable. It's too late to alter my vote now though.

Edit: I did not have Lucia use the Brave or magical weapons because it would be hypocritical of me to claim that Haar can't/shouldn't be taking the Brave Axe as it is a unique weapon and then turning around and giving Lucia a brave sword/magical weapon.

You could extract the data you want anytime you want from the HM enemy stats sticky thread, you know.

Also, one thing we could take into account when discussing Haar vs. Lucia in terms of offence is that when neither is able to ORKO, Lucia could gamble it out with a Killing Edge and have decent chances of getting the kill. She can also be given Astra for extra chances, and the competition for Occult scrolls isn't too stiff in this game, I would argue.

Still, Lucia doesn't fly, counter at all ranges with an easily replaceable and forgeable weapon, and can't take hits that she fails to avoid, but I feel like we could give extra credit to her offence just to be fair.

But then you're giving Lucia a bunch of resources that could go to other units. To make it fair, you have to give Haar similar resources. Haar could take a killing axe or a speedwings for his problems. Also, he's not even saying Lucia>Haar. He's just saying she can do some stuff besides forged silvers to mitigate her poor offense.

But Haar doesn't benefit from the resources Lucia benefits from. Lucia's mastery skill is highly useful, Haar's is not (since it's not doing triple damage here). Lucia has innate crit and doubles more often to make her chances of critting significant, while Haar equipping a Killer Axe means he will most likely do less damage than if he were using the Brave Axe. Finally, Speedwings is contested by more units than an Occult scroll is. Didn't everybody on the forum agree that Sol is the only worthwhile mastery skill and at the same time state that healing is unnecessary in this game? If Lucia is used, she might as well be taught Astra, giving her even higher chances to ORKO the enemies she easily doubles.

I think we shouldn't forget the fact Lucia has less trouble connecting with her attacks, either.

while Haar equipping a Killer Axe means he will most likely do less damage than if he were using the Brave Axe.

but haar never wants to equip a killer axe so your contention is completely useless

Finally, Speedwings is contested by more units than an Occult scroll is.

it's contested by like 2 other units, neither of which are great at combat; furthermore an occult skill only increases lucia's chance of doing higher damage but is far from guaranteeing it - astra is only skl/2% activation, which means that lucia's chance of ORKO (if the ORKO is within reach in the first place) is only augmented by less than 11 percentage points at any given time

I think we shouldn't forget the fact Lucia has less trouble connecting with her attacks, either.

hello, i'm muston and i can forge hit on weapons (remember that haar doubles plenty of enemies without a brave weapon)