Panasonic Whisper Green w Ductless heat Pump - Home Energy Pros2015-03-31T21:15:23Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/panasonic-whisper-green-w-ductless-heat-pump?groupUrl=1000homechallenge&commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A97476&xg_source=activity&groupId=6069565%3AGroup%3A6751&feed=yes&xn_auth=noLinda, Don,
I love the concep…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-07:6069565:Comment:977882012-11-07T16:03:24.304ZDave Robinsonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DaveRobinson
<p>Linda, Don,</p>
<p>I love the concept of moving air around for 12 watts with a Panasonic bath fan. As you know, I have been experimenting with the ducted method of using the small MSHP's I've determined that it is less efficient (if you want absolute minimum energy usage) ... but it can provide very uniform room to room temps, if that is the major objective. I have two projects now being monitored by DOE and NREL from which I presented preliminary data at Pittsburg ACI, and mountains…</p>
<p>Linda, Don,</p>
<p>I love the concept of moving air around for 12 watts with a Panasonic bath fan. As you know, I have been experimenting with the ducted method of using the small MSHP's I've determined that it is less efficient (if you want absolute minimum energy usage) ... but it can provide very uniform room to room temps, if that is the major objective. I have two projects now being monitored by DOE and NREL from which I presented preliminary data at Pittsburg ACI, and mountains more will be coming. This system also helps distribute the single point Panasonic ERV which is located near the return. It is keeping temperatures very stable, even with the bedroom doors closed, with the Tamarack under door return air paths. </p>
<p> This system answers the perceived American need for forced air to every room and after a proper design and install is pretty bullet proof (occupant proof)</p>
<p> I'm convinced that using the single point delivery systems and moving the air with fans as we are discussing is more efficient. (9 points higher SEER to start with, plus 1/3 the fan watts, just to start with) So I'll be putting in this type of system in future houses that aren't being used for testing. The single point delivery with fans is more for energy geeks who like to control and fine tune their systems. (that would be me, ... and I think you)</p>
<p> Final thought on distribution with Panasonic bath fans. I have two installed in my house and they are situated where they can push the heat from the pellet stove in the basement up into a family room which is two story, so it's open to the upstairs. So the pellet stove can heat the whole house. (4300 sf) The central systems are still available as well as a big ceiling fan in the tall family room for additional mixing if desired. The 2 fans are located right above the pellet stove. This is the same concept we are discussing, just a different heat source. </p> Linda,
We have a similar situ…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-07:6069565:Comment:981142012-11-07T15:03:30.058ZDave Robinsonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DaveRobinson
<p>Linda,</p>
<p>We have a similar situation in York, Nebraska ... A little different but the story is cool. It's a second story apartment with a distant bedroom that needed conditioning. The performance was so bad before the project that the tenant moved out, never being comfortable. We installed the same unit you have in the main room and a Panasonic bath fan powering a buried duct to that far bedroom. (Along with the rest of the sealing and insulation package) The performance was…</p>
<p>Linda,</p>
<p>We have a similar situation in York, Nebraska ... A little different but the story is cool. It's a second story apartment with a distant bedroom that needed conditioning. The performance was so bad before the project that the tenant moved out, never being comfortable. We installed the same unit you have in the main room and a Panasonic bath fan powering a buried duct to that far bedroom. (Along with the rest of the sealing and insulation package) The performance was so improved that the tenant begged to move back in, and they did. We chose very simple controls. A line voltage thermostat. </p>
<p> </p> Thanks Don!
Very helpful inf…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-07:6069565:Comment:981082012-11-07T05:29:23.278ZLinda Wigingtonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Linda
<p>Thanks Don! </p>
<p>Very helpful info. I think this will work. Bottom of the grill will be over 8 ft from the floor. Two switches make sense. I agree, we should go with the 130 CFM fan rather than the 80 CFM fan one. The delta T is pretty small, so it makes sense have that extra capacity and flexibility.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks Don! </p>
<p>Very helpful info. I think this will work. Bottom of the grill will be over 8 ft from the floor. Two switches make sense. I agree, we should go with the 130 CFM fan rather than the 80 CFM fan one. The delta T is pretty small, so it makes sense have that extra capacity and flexibility.</p>
<p> </p> Linda:
Yes, these multispee…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-06:6069565:Comment:979892012-11-06T16:38:26.670ZDon Stevenshttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DonStevens
<p>Linda:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, these multispeed fans have two dials behind the grille on the face of the fan. One controls the low speed and the other controls how long the fan stays on high speed before defaulting back to the original low speed. The dials look like this:</p>
<p><a href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/-ehI4CDhjQd2hZp851Z37Gos0wNMSs-PzQBO4tVnLweZbnXjPQyx3i944FeIQagzi34tbYfYNsUvJzKnMhRDsrXTmWsxurH9/13VKS3dials.JPG" target="_self"><img class="align-left" height="153" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/-ehI4CDhjQd2hZp851Z37Gos0wNMSs-PzQBO4tVnLweZbnXjPQyx3i944FeIQagzi34tbYfYNsUvJzKnMhRDsrXTmWsxurH9/13VKS3dials.JPG" width="191"></img></a></p>
<p>Generally, these fans are…</p>
<p>Linda:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, these multispeed fans have two dials behind the grille on the face of the fan. One controls the low speed and the other controls how long the fan stays on high speed before defaulting back to the original low speed. The dials look like this:</p>
<p><a href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/-ehI4CDhjQd2hZp851Z37Gos0wNMSs-PzQBO4tVnLweZbnXjPQyx3i944FeIQagzi34tbYfYNsUvJzKnMhRDsrXTmWsxurH9/13VKS3dials.JPG" target="_self"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/-ehI4CDhjQd2hZp851Z37Gos0wNMSs-PzQBO4tVnLweZbnXjPQyx3i944FeIQagzi34tbYfYNsUvJzKnMhRDsrXTmWsxurH9/13VKS3dials.JPG" width="191" height="153"/></a></p>
<p>Generally, these fans are used to provide both local spot ventilation in a bathroom and whole building ventilation to meet ASHRAE 62,2. The low speed can be chosen to meet the whole building continuous rate, say 50 cfm for a 2000 square foot three bedroom house (7.5 cfm x (# of bedrooms + 1) + (2000 square feet x 0.01 cfm/sf). When the control switch on the wall is closed, the fan switches to the full high speed of 130 cfm as long as the switch is on, plus the number of minutes set on the timer to the left. Then it drops back down to the low speed cfm set to meet the whole building ventilation rate. Your homeowner would want the VKS3 model that uses an unpowered switch to control that boost, not the VKM3 version that uses a motion sensor to control that boost to full speed. There are also similar fans rated at 80 cfm for the high speed that can be set for 30, 40, 50, 60, or 70 cfm with a boost to 80 cfm, but I would recommend the 130 cfm model to move more tempered air. It is still rated at less than 0.3 sone at 130 cfm while using less than 12 watts.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For this application, I would use two switches, one for power to control the on-off of the fan wired to the black and white wires and a non-powered control switch for the two red control wires to kick the fan to 130 cfm. Then the homeowner can adjust the speed at the fan behind the grille for the low speed and just turn it on and off as needed for distribution of the heated or cooled air. If he wants the full speed, he can then close the control switch and leave it on high. He is not looking for whole building ventilation but rather redistribution of the heated or cooled air from upstairs. He can experiment on what airflow rate he finds most comfortable and effective.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The fan is designed to be installed as a ceiling insert fan and that is the best application. The UL listing requires that the fan has to be at least 7 feet above the floor to avoid anyone pushing a finger through the grille and hitting the blower wheel, especially kids. If that can be met and the discharge pointed down, the only issues are that the damper will not close (I would just remove it for this application) and the motor will experience slightly different stresses on the bearings that may shorten its life somewhat, although we have never had any issues come up. These DC motors are intended to last 10-20 years of continuous use, so this is not a big concern.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> Don -
Are the fan flow settin…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-06:6069565:Comment:979832012-11-06T04:31:25.397ZLinda Wigingtonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Linda
<p>Don -</p>
<p>Are the fan flow settings (50 to 110 cfm) for the FV-13VKS3 behind the grill? </p>
<p>Mounting the fan to get the discharge into the top of the 4x16 vertical riser should work, though it will take some ingenuity. Can the fan be turned so the grill is vertical and the discharge facing down? The duct is in a closet and there is a dropped ceiling directly above it. That space should be big enough to mount the fan with the grill cut into the top of wall, assuming it is OK to mount…</p>
<p>Don -</p>
<p>Are the fan flow settings (50 to 110 cfm) for the FV-13VKS3 behind the grill? </p>
<p>Mounting the fan to get the discharge into the top of the 4x16 vertical riser should work, though it will take some ingenuity. Can the fan be turned so the grill is vertical and the discharge facing down? The duct is in a closet and there is a dropped ceiling directly above it. That space should be big enough to mount the fan with the grill cut into the top of wall, assuming it is OK to mount the fan that way.</p>
<p> </p> Linda:
I would suggest usin…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-06:6069565:Comment:977662012-11-06T02:40:52.395ZDon Stevenshttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DonStevens
<p>Linda:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would suggest using the 130 cfm DC fan, the Panasonic FV-13VKS3, mounted in the insulated ceiling or in a thick wall (2x8 depth needed) pointed down so that the 6 inch discharge could be connected to one of your existing 4x16 vertical duct risers. As you say, it is important to remember that the temperature will be warmer than the room below but will still be chilly if it strikes the homeowner. So use an air conditioning grille with some throw to spread the air out…</p>
<p>Linda:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would suggest using the 130 cfm DC fan, the Panasonic FV-13VKS3, mounted in the insulated ceiling or in a thick wall (2x8 depth needed) pointed down so that the 6 inch discharge could be connected to one of your existing 4x16 vertical duct risers. As you say, it is important to remember that the temperature will be warmer than the room below but will still be chilly if it strikes the homeowner. So use an air conditioning grille with some throw to spread the air out across the downstairs ceiling. The 13VKS3 gives you the ability to set the airflow at 50, 70, 90, or 110 cfm with a boost to 130 cfm when the control switch is thrown so the homeowner can do a bit of adjustment based on comfort and effectiveness.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Don</p> Thanks Robb -
While getting t…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-05:6069565:Comment:976742012-11-05T18:15:06.941ZLinda Wigingtonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Linda
<p>Thanks Robb -</p>
<p>While getting the extra heat from the second floor to the first floor won't be as important once the home is fully insulated and significantly tighter, there will still be the benefit when it is really cold, and when they want to heat up the downstairs more quickly. Both of those applications will reduce the need for propane in the future. I am assuming that this effort (getting 2nd floor DHP heat to the 1st floor) will have value in both the short and…</p>
<p>Thanks Robb -</p>
<p>While getting the extra heat from the second floor to the first floor won't be as important once the home is fully insulated and significantly tighter, there will still be the benefit when it is really cold, and when they want to heat up the downstairs more quickly. Both of those applications will reduce the need for propane in the future. I am assuming that this effort (getting 2nd floor DHP heat to the 1st floor) will have value in both the short and long-term.</p>
<p>Definitely low operating energy use is a high priority, also first cost. That is why the Panasonic DC fan is ideal. The mental framework for this project is achieving deep reductions - AKA Thousand Home Challenge, so every investment is made from that context. </p>
<p>They did try using the central air handler for mixing air both winter and summer - as I recall, it did not have a huge impact. The furnace fan probably uses as much energy (or more) than the DHP. We could experiment more by setting the upstairs DHP on 80 for a while. However, the sheet metal ductwork in the basement is not insulated...</p>
<p>I think we have a good way to pull air off of the ceiling on the second floor near the DHP by taking over one of the existing supply ducts. It may be tricky to avoid discomfort blowing it into the room below, as it will probably be 70 - 75 degree F air. Is it best for mixing &amp; comfort if we locate the register high in the downstairs room, or better to get it as low as possible?</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> I've got no great solutions L…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-05:6069565:Comment:976672012-11-05T15:30:59.869ZRobb Aldrichhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/RobbAldrich
<p>I've got no great solutions Linda. I've seen some people use in-line fans with variable-speed controls, but these tend to use quite a bit more electricity.</p>
<p>If this is really a temporary issue -- and more work will be done soon to reduce the loads downstairs -- is it worth putting a lot of effort into an air mixing system? Could you use the existing furnace fan to mix air? Maybe add a BPM motor (Concept3 or Evergreen) if you're concerned about AHU energy? (though those aren't…</p>
<p>I've got no great solutions Linda. I've seen some people use in-line fans with variable-speed controls, but these tend to use quite a bit more electricity.</p>
<p>If this is really a temporary issue -- and more work will be done soon to reduce the loads downstairs -- is it worth putting a lot of effort into an air mixing system? Could you use the existing furnace fan to mix air? Maybe add a BPM motor (Concept3 or Evergreen) if you're concerned about AHU energy? (though those aren't cheap...)</p>
<p>As for where to suck/blow, I'd say suck the warmest air (where practical) and blow it to the cooler room.</p> This slide deck has a little…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-02:6069565:Comment:973962012-11-02T18:14:08.854ZLinda Wigingtonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Linda
<p>This slide deck has a little more info - slides 22-26 address the Western Pa Farmhouse referenced in my reply immediately above</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also info not in the thread above, but here <a href="http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/anyone-working-with-panasonics?xg_source=activity">http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/anyone-working-with-panasonics?xg_source=activity</a> on the use of Panasonic fans for disribution with DHPs.</p>
<p>This slide deck has a little more info - slides 22-26 address the Western Pa Farmhouse referenced in my reply immediately above</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also info not in the thread above, but here <a href="http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/anyone-working-with-panasonics?xg_source=activity">http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/anyone-working-with-panasonics?xg_source=activity</a> on the use of Panasonic fans for disribution with DHPs.</p> Practical recommendation requ…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-11-02:6069565:Comment:974762012-11-02T16:27:54.364ZLinda Wigingtonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Linda
<p>Practical recommendation requested. What is the best way to move heat from 2<sup>nd</sup> floor to 1<sup>st</sup> floor?</p>
<p>Don and others - -</p>
<p>I have a situation where I would like to add a Panasonic Whisper Green fan to increase a home's ability to benefit from the use of its upstairs ductless heat pump (DHP) for heating. This unit clearly has unused heating capacity, as its heating energy use last year was only 402 kWh.</p>
<p>QUESTIONS:</p>
<p>Anything better than Panasonic…</p>
<p>Practical recommendation requested. What is the best way to move heat from 2<sup>nd</sup> floor to 1<sup>st</sup> floor?</p>
<p>Don and others - -</p>
<p>I have a situation where I would like to add a Panasonic Whisper Green fan to increase a home's ability to benefit from the use of its upstairs ductless heat pump (DHP) for heating. This unit clearly has unused heating capacity, as its heating energy use last year was only 402 kWh.</p>
<p>QUESTIONS:</p>
<p>Anything better than Panasonic Whisper Green DC variable speed fan?</p>
<p>What sized fan would be best?</p>
<p>Where to locate the fan?</p>
<p>How should fan be controlled?</p>
<p>HERE IS THE SITUATION:</p>
<p>Attached is a presentation that includes data from this house - It is the Western PA Farmhouse on slides 22 to 25. Energy improvements are being done over time. At this point the upstairs walls and attic are well insulated; downstairs is only partially insulated. Upstairs does not need additional heat, so the RLS 9 Fujitsu DHP (9,000 Btu) ran little last winter compared to downstairs DHP. It was installed upstairs in a large bedroom, with the primary intention of providing air conditioning. There is a RLS 15 Fujitsu DHP downstairs that was used to offset as much heating as possible. The propane furnace was used when they needed to raise the temperature quickly and when the DHP could not carry the load.</p>
<p>Both DHPs are submetered. They saved a significant amount of propane (~350 gallons) Note: winter 2011-12 was warmer than winter 2010-11, and the propane dryer was also disconnected during the winter; this reduction is not weather adjusted, or specific to just the offset in heating. Hopefully over the next year or two the rest of the home with be insulated and air sealed. That is going to happen for this winter. For heating the total DHP use was 2,072 kWh, the downstairs DHP used 1670 kWh and the upstairs one used 402 kWh. For AC, the DHP energy use was 1,000 kWh, 553 kWh upstairs and 482 kWh downstairs).</p>
<p>It should be possible to offset more propane heating if we could use the upstairs DHP to help heat the downstairs. Doing so is certainly less expensive than adding an additional DHP downstairs (~$3,000). In addition, the 3rd DHP should not be needed once the house is insulated and air sealed. We want to create air movement to the room directly under the upstairs bedroom with the DHP.</p>
<p>Is it more effective to install a fan at the ceiling of the bedroom and blow the air down to the floor of the room below through a duct - or to blow colder air from the room below to the room above? There are transoms over the doors so there is a pathway for circulation even when doors are closed. The home's central forced air system that was installed 50 years ago appears to have been properly sized for a higher cooling/heating load, so there are (2) dedicated 4 x 16" ducts serving each room. It doesn't appear to be a problem to disconnect and re-use some of this ductwork to achieve the desired airflow between these two rooms. The question is where to locate the fan so that it will be most effective. We are not trying to zone heat the room below, just move heat to the first floor and not overheat the bedroom.</p>
<p>Not that it matters, but the farmhouse has big rooms (17.5 x 17.5 sq. ft) and 9 ft ceilings. The bedroom is right off of the home's main staircase, which is centrally located. There is plenty of opportunity for air flow within the home, and between rooms on each floor. Obviously, tightening and insulating the home is a priority, and has the potential for a significant impact on comfort. At this point, affordability is the highest priority, comfort is secondary, as the occupants are tolerating a lower level of thermal comfort than most people would consider acceptable.</p>
<p>I welcome questions and suggestions!</p>