I can't wait for Lee Greenwood's "Why I'm voting Obama in 2012."posted by drezdn at 6:52 AM on October 20, 2010 [4 favorites]

An anti-socialist complaining that Social Security's payouts don't include a cost-of-living increase. What a surprise. Keep the government out of my entitlement pay!posted by headnsouth at 6:53 AM on October 20, 2010 [26 favorites]

*sticks fingers in ears*

"La la la I can't heeeear you!"posted by chinston at 6:55 AM on October 20, 2010

The Tea Partiers certainly have an image problem. It's true that not all of them are racists or uninformed, but it's hard to swallow the "it's the liberal media that's painting us that way!" argument when even their leaders say racist and uninformed things. I've met reasonable, non-racist Tea Partiers, but they are in a definite minority, and tend to be in denial about that.posted by luke1249 at 6:59 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

It's such an icy feeling
It's so cold in Alaska (Stephanie Sarah Palin says)posted by chinston at 6:59 AM on October 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

Only a thousand people will ever read her ill-informed thoughts on socialism, but every single one of them will go out and create a sign of Obama as Hitler.posted by ND¢ at 7:00 AM on October 20, 2010 [57 favorites]

I do so wish people would find out what socialism is before they used the term.posted by Splunge at 7:01 AM on October 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

Well. I...okay.

Good music and good politics have very little to do with eachother.

I know this to be true, and yet I still get caught off-guard by stuff like this. My capacity to be amazed by people (in both good and bad ways) is apparently endless.posted by rtha at 7:01 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

This post made my heart sink.

Only a thousand people will ever read her ill-informed thoughts on socialism, but every single one of them will go out and create a sign of Obama as Hitler.

Devils Rancher: I like the music of all you mentioned except Toby Keith, and I'm not a huge fan of the whole metro vs. retro/blue state vs red state BS. It muddies the waters with irrelevance.posted by jonmc at 7:06 AM on October 20, 2010 [4 favorites]

I get my music & my politics mixed up all the time, jonmc. Maybe it's a bad habit left over from those stupid sixties. For example, Bruce Cockburn -- he's a damn fine guitarist, which is all well and good, but he's got something of relevance to say beyond "Tonight, tonight," which moves me.

All of my favorite lyricists are closely aligned with my politics, especially my sense of social justice, so your blanket statement struck me, and I'm not meaning to be unnecessarily fighty here, as just a little blankety.posted by Devils Rancher at 7:11 AM on October 20, 2010

Toby Keith is an Obama-loving democrat, but don't let the facts get in the way of your assumptions.

Eh, most of those old NY punk people were racists, anyway.posted by koeselitz at 7:13 AM on October 20, 2010

All of my favorite lyricists are closely aligned with my politics, especially my sense of social justice, so your blanket statement struck me, and I'm not meaning to be unnecessarily fighty here, as just a little blankety.

What I was getting at was that people with politics I don't agree with have made some great music, and vice versa, not that the two twains never meet.posted by jonmc at 7:16 AM on October 20, 2010

Totally heartbreaking. Up until I heard about this I would have happily called her one of the coolest people on earth and a personal hero of mine. I've always given her a ton of credit for her intelligence and her huge role in defining the essence of the VU. This ruined my day when I first heard about it.posted by anazgnos at 7:17 AM on October 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

Why, that's a terrible thing. I don't know how many time I've told those boys, never call chicks broads.posted by shakespeherian at 7:17 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

Moe Tucker is a Tea Partier.
Toby Keith is a Democrat.

My head hurts.

I... I just don't know anything anymore.

Fuck it, I'm gonna listen to Can and turn off my brain for a little while.posted by 1f2frfbf at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2010 [14 favorites]

What I was getting at was that people with politics I don't agree with have made some great music...

Yeah, I guess BB King would be a great example of this. Love the guy, seriously. For a lot of writers, politics never enters into the musical sphere at all, and it's a little jarring to find out they're conservative or whatever, but the music itself stands.posted by Devils Rancher at 7:22 AM on October 20, 2010

Fuck it, I'm gonna listen to Can and turn off my brain for a little while.

this is what decades of cynicism and alienation from the power structure can do - if she's concluded that the government can't do a good job on what they're trying to do, and there's plenty of evidence for that - and if the government doesn't do a good job of listening to ordinary people - well, many of them have concluded that it's not going to change and the only solution is to shrink the government - many of them have also concluded that they're not getting their money's worth from government and that the things democrats what to do will increase their taxes

it's the left's job to convince people that it doesn't have to work like this, but our leaders aren't doing a very good job of it - i would like to see a big, functional government that takes care of the issues and spends its money well - but if we're going to have a dysfunctional government, we'd probably be better off with a smaller one

what i see here is someone who's given up on the idea that our government is going to get its act together and do well by the people - her solution is to shrink it, mine would be to change it - unfortunately, it's getting harder to believe in change - the opposition is doing everything they can to block it - and the democrats aren't doing an effective job of focusing on it, explaining it, figuring it out or getting it done

I am also against the government taking over the student loan program,

Ugh. It was already a government program, just one that let companies skim off the top for some totally random reason. And in fact the companies were guaranteed to make their money back by the government, so there was never any risk.posted by delmoi at 7:36 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

windbox: "... "the mayor/city commissioners of Anytown, U.S.A. [is] declaring you can't fly a flag, can't say the Pledge of Allegiance and can't sing the National Anthem."

What. Who has ever declared that?! When? I want to go to a tea party counter-protest with a sign that says CITATIONS PLEASE"

I keep hoping this mythical chimeras they dredge up from the backs of their imaginations actually existed. It would gladden my heart and give me real hope.

What did the founding fathers DO before we had that pledge? I don't get it!

And she's prolly bitching about Donald Trump's 50 foot Americock flag that his local community said had to go, not cuz it was a flag, but because it was so annoying and big.posted by symbioid at 7:38 AM on October 20, 2010

1f2frfbf: “Fuck it, I'm gonna listen to Can and turn off my brain for a little while.”

Last weekend I got a brand-new vinyl copy of this four-record set. It makes me happier than almost anything ever has.posted by koeselitz at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

I was faithfully reading Moe's opinions, trying to give her the bennie of the doubt even though I'm thinking TL;DR the whole time. But then about half way down it struck me: the only reason I'm reading this is because she was famous like 2 scores and seven years ago for something totally unrelated to thinking. So I stopped.posted by acheekymonkey at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

Good music and good politics have very little to do with eachother.

Yeah, I learned that lesson when I found out that Deniz Tek was a giant Rush Limbaugh fan.posted by NoMich at 7:49 AM on October 20, 2010

Lou Reed's solo work was better than anything the Velvet Underground did, anyway. The Blue Mask > White Light/White Heat, Q.E.D.posted by koeselitz at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2010

Aside from pyramid termite, I'm just not seeing anyone actually responding to her opinions. Which, give the woman credit, seem far more reasonable and thought-out than most other Tea Partiers we've heard from. And considering she only went to that one rally and says she's not involved in the movement, perhaps we shouldn't lump her in with the awful people we've read and seen at these rallies. No, she seems to be a fairly coherent small-government classical conservative, which I happen to disagree with but is also not a lunatic position to have.posted by naju at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2010 [4 favorites]

WTF do people who identify with this weak-ass shit expect from their government, anyway?

What is the point of citizenship and statehood then? Arguments about the evils of federalism are weak when the best you can come up with is state, no, county, no, regional, no, municipal, no, neighbourhood, no, private variations on regulations for the same damn things.

I'm sorry, but there are capital costs that we share that neo-libertarians simple forget about even though they benefit from them every day.

The very reason any of these losers have the resources to bitch, moan, complain and assemble is because of the benefits of a pervasive public sector that they have had their entire lives.

It also highlights the problem with pervasive public sectors failures, such as education. Most of these people seem to have gotten enough of an education to come up with weak-ass arguments for problems that don't exist, fob off their personal failures as failures of government, and learn to never learn anything else the rest of their unhappy lives.

Out of curiosity, no one here every supports the right-wing view?posted by luke1249 at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Moe Tucker took my place as bass drum player in The Kropotkins when I moved from NYC to Tokyo. Later she was out of the band again, and I came back to make another record with the group.

I would like to take this opportunity to state, unequivocally and for the record, that although we played the very same bass drum in the same band, I never met Moe and I have no affiliation with the Tea Party. Also I'd like it known that I am a flaming Communist and I want all poor people in the USA to have lots of stuff that the government pays for with Moe Tucker's tax dollars.posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:13 AM on October 20, 2010 [20 favorites]

Aside from pyramid termite, I'm just not seeing anyone actually responding to her opinions.

This x 1000. The reality is that this is a group of very scared, very angry, and very misinformed people. Democrats should spend more time calling them out on and refuting their outlandish statements than simply ridiculing them for being racist/nutjobs/racist-nutjobs.posted by windbox at 8:14 AM on October 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

"Out of curiosity, no one here every supports the right-wing view?

Why pay to comment here when they can comment on Fark, Digg and Free Republic for free?posted by NiteMayr at 8:16 AM on October 20, 2010

Funny, she must not have seen the budget graph. I looked for "turtle tunnels" but I couldn't find it, what with all the "killing people" and "blowing shit up" expenditures. She didn't mention the costs of imperialism or corporate tax welfare even once...

Democrats should spend more time calling them out on and refuting their outlandish statements than simply ridiculing them for being racist/nutjobs/racist-nutjobs.

I'd argue that they tried that with the whole "The President isn't a US citizen thing" where they showed the birth certificate and the news paper announcement, etc. and it really did nothing to slow down the energy of the Birther factions.

Facts seem to have no power over these people. It might help to sway those on the fence, and therefore it's probably worth trying, but as I've said before, when you can't engage someone with reason and logic, and they seem prepared to be dogmatically contrarian at all costs, what other options are available?posted by quin at 8:23 AM on October 20, 2010

well, many of them have concluded that it's not going to change and the only solution is to shrink the government

I think this analysis is spot on, and really brings into relief how bad humans are at problem analysis.

It's like saying, well, every car I've ever had breaks down sometimes, therefore, I need "less car" to reliably get where I'm going. Or it's like saying, well, I got cheated at poker once, therefore I should work to further legislation to outlaw poker playing.

Our thinking machines have a tendency to overgeneralize and oversimplify complex problems to the point of absurdity. Also, when confronted with complex problems, we get lazy and opt for the nihilistic solution (burn it all down!), even when it should be obvious that taking this approach will only make the situation far worse.

In short, we're inclined to be stupid and lazy, and our knee-jerk impulse is toward nihilism. Punks in particular tend to be temperamentally inclined toward nihilism, so it only makes sense some punks would embrace/flirt with political nihilism. God knows all my old punk friends do. Some of them are even unrepentant white supremacists now.posted by saulgoodman at 8:28 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

(Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folkpunk group
Don't go mixin' politics with the folkpunk songs of our land
Just work on harmony and diction
Play your banjodrumset well
And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself)posted by filthy light thief at 8:38 AM on October 20, 2010

The thing that's so terribly disheartening about the Tea Partiers (and I couldn't give a rat's ass about Mo Tucker, except for the fact that she really does express the "average" Tea Partier's sentiments, at least the ones in my world) is that on the surface, the argument is so reasonable -- government should do more for the average person, shouldn't spend frivolously on pork, politicians should be treated with great suspicion, the constitution is a pretty good guide for how to run things -- it's easy to see the appeal. But then you see *everyone* in the movement, including Ms. Tucker, getting it so utterly wrong in the details that you realize this isn't really a movement about political philosophy, it's a movement about being willfully ignorant to pursue your own self interest. I would be seriously reassured to see a tea party candidate who actually takes the time to understand things like the law, and history, and how government works.

It's not fair that social security isn't granting a cost of living adjustment because you're outraged at the cost of things at Walmart, seriously? That's why congress by law ties social security to economic indices, so we don't have this idiotic debate about government handouts every 2 years. ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU IDIOTS SAY IS REFUTED BY FACTS.

Did Christine O'Donnell really say "Where in the constitution does it say there is separation of church and state?" And she didn't pull out of the race in shame?

Honestly, we've had less than 2 years of reasonably competent government, I don't even see how would be possible to begin to crawl out of the deep dark hole the U.S. was in 2 years ago, but there are unmistakable signs that this is happening. And people are ready to swing medieval even harder than Bush.posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:39 AM on October 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

Last weekend I got a brand-new vinyl copy of this four-record set. It makes me happier than almost anything ever has.

*Drools*...hope I can get that on Spotify. No Can right now, but I've got a copy of Faust IV on my phone. Goddamn but Krautrock is a good piece of music.

Lou Reed: No longer the biggest asshole in VU.

I dunno. I think you have to go a fairly long way to out-asshole Lou. Ask Lou about politics, he'd be all "Obama's an asshole. Palin's an asshole...actually, you're an asshole. All my friends are dead".posted by Infinite Jest at 8:39 AM on October 20, 2010 [4 favorites]

(Punk might not be the right label for VU, but there you go - artistic license and all that)posted by filthy light thief at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2010

But we can still have fun with "Tea Partiers sure are stoopid, amirite?"

How about we have fun with "humans are stupid" and Tea Partiers represent a special case of that general pattern? Cause that's kinda where I am on the subject.posted by saulgoodman at 8:41 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Out of curiosity, no one here every supports the right-wing view?

A mere handful of us can see Russia from our backyard, and the one guy who claims to have never masturbated was later outed as a World of Warcraft gold farmer, and left Charlie Brown style.posted by Brocktoon at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Aside from pyramid termite, I'm just not seeing anyone actually responding to her opinions. Which, give the woman credit, seem far more reasonable and thought-out than most other Tea Partiers we've heard from.

"Far more reasonable and thought-out?" Honestly? It's the same old bullshit.

Some of her opinions:

I am also against the government taking over the student loan program, car companies, bailouts and the White House taking control of the census (what the hell is that all about?); [about] any First Lady telling (I know, I know, "suggesting to") us what to eat, the mayor of New York City declaring "no salt" (screw you, pal!), the mayor/city commissioners of Anytown, U.S.A. declaring you can't fly a flag, can't say the Pledge of Allegiance and can't sing the National Anthem. I'm against a President dismissing any and all who dare to disagree; the water being turned off in (central) California, at [an] area where they've turned off the water because they want to save a one-inch fish -- turning that huge area of farming land into another dustbowl -- the insipid start of food supply control methinks!

My response would be that this woman is clearly delusional.

To be honest, it also sounds like she doesn't like black people. Other first ladies have demanded we "just say no" and turn our parents into the cops for smoking weed, and she's incensed that Michelle Obama says "eating more vegetables is good for you"?!?! Something is off.

This woman is just another fucker who thinks "I know what's best and everyone else sucks." She deserves no response.

But here's one anyway.

The government deciding what kind of lightbulbs we can use (all you "think green" people, three objections to this b.s.: 1) Those bulbs give off the light of a candle; 2) They're very expensive; 3) They have mercury in them - how the hell are we supposed to dispose of them?).

Really it seems that Toby Keith's politics are not consistently partisan or consistent, period. Devils Rancher's assumptions that he's a rightie are pretty reasonable given his past feuds with the Dixie Chicks over patriotism, supportive comments of Sarah Palin and 2004 support for GWB.posted by phearlez at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

when you can't engage someone with reason and logic, and they seem prepared to be dogmatically contrarian at all costs, what other options are available?

maybe you start by finding a few things you do agree on, like the value inherent in a good solid beat, some grinding guitars, a tortured viola and a whole whack of speed. Something like this, for instance.

Mo can talk all she want, as far as I'm concerned. She'll never undo her part in the brilliant thing she long ago set in motion.posted by philip-random at 8:45 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Ask Lou about politics, he'd be all "Obama's an asshole. Palin's an asshole...actually, you're an asshole. All my friends are dead".

"And hey, listen to my shitty album that sets Edgar Allan Poe stories to music. It's called POEtry. Get it? POEtry!"posted by electroboy at 8:46 AM on October 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

You might say the jury's still out.posted by jonmc at 8:46 AM on October 20, 2010

Mo's got every right to say dumb things, and we've got every right to call them dumb. Thus, the circle of liberty is completed.posted by saulgoodman at 8:47 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why is an Australian tabloid businessman dictating our conversations? I don't understand why a "third party" gets any publicity at all. The Green Party doesn't. The Anti-war or immigration marches didn't either.

All this sudden concern about the national debt is absurd cover for the agenda of lawless exploitation, same as it was throughout most of our history. The South said they would rise again and here we are in a panic about terrorism when the South wrote the book on how a small group can terrorize a larger group by thugish hatred.

Reagan was the one who said that debt doesn't matter when he doubled it for the savings and loan bubble. Hasn't anyone ever heard of quantitative easing? As long as the rest of the world is in the same or worse shape, our dollars are as good as ever and we can just keep printing them. Worrying about money should concern us less then bullying made acceptable on a national scale.posted by Bitter soylent at 8:50 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Not often. Being a 2-time Reagan voter who's anti-gun control and anti-arts-funding and pro-death-penalty, there's not much to the right of me on MeFi. But even I am an extremist liberal socialist by US standards. MeFi is mostly a liberal echo-chamber, but I think worth it, because it's just a smart and nuanced one.

>>Democrats should spend more time calling them out on and refuting their outlandish statements than simply ridiculing them for being racist/nutjobs/racist-nutjobs.

I'd argue that they tried that with the whole "The President isn't a US citizen thing" where they showed the birth certificate and the news paper announcement, etc. and it really did nothing to slow down the energy of the Birther factions.

Obama tried in this to stay above the fray and look Presidential. I really wonder what would have happened if he'd given an interview and said "I wish people like Bill O'Reilly would stop helping Orly Taitz spread outright lies about me me and my mother."

The whole "be the bigger man" thing isn't working out too well for him.posted by tyllwin at 8:55 AM on October 20, 2010

The whole "be the bigger man" thing isn't working out too well for him.

Well, even the biggest man in Lilliput can still be dragged down by the sheer weight of the numbers.posted by saulgoodman at 8:58 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Democrats should spend more time calling them out on and refuting their outlandish statements...

The whole "be the bigger man" thing isn't working out too well for him.

There is a certain train of thought that says you should not feed into blatantly stupid conversations. You can't win an argument with a shouter. If Obama continues to not feed into it the position gets boring and aligned with "certain people" and eventually dismissed. Yeah, there will always be shouters, but the internet makes them look bigger than they actually are.

To an extent C. O'Donnell tried to do this (repudiate a stupid claim) with her whole "I am not a witch" ad. And it back-fired terribly. She called the stupid thing out, and her calling it out made it worse, she is now a national laughing stock. It doesn't hurt that she is about a bright as a box of black velvet mind you.posted by edgeways at 9:02 AM on October 20, 2010

The Green Party has not won a primary victory over a deeply entrenched Democratic incumbent.

Why would a Green Party candidate be running in a Democratic primary? The thing about the Tea Party is that (with a few exceptions) it's an insurgency within the Republican Party, so TP candidates can run in primaries against established Repubs. This is actually a pretty good way to control the Overton window and the national dialog-- if you manage to get even one TP candidate on the actual ballot, it becomes a giant story and the Party establishment has to back that candidate in the election. Frankly I think if lefties want to move the national politics to the left they should do the same thing within the Democratic Party rather than supporting third parties like Green.posted by shakespeherian at 9:07 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

shakespeherian: Kind of what happened awhile back to the Democratic party in Minnesota. They are now known as the Democratic–Farmer–Labor (DFL) Partyposted by edgeways at 9:16 AM on October 20, 2010

"Why is an Australian tabloid businessman dictating our conversations?"

This.

The times I occasionally tune in to Fox I am consistently shocked by the amount of misinformation, innuendo, and deceitful "reporting." It floods into the minds of poor people like Moe, who have been genuinely hurt by the economic downturn, and gives them easy answers that are not only wrong, but turns them against their own self interest.

Just came across this from right-winger Sarah Cupp, justifying Glenn Beck's appeal to the TP folk:

The left focuses on the crying, the chalkboard, the conspiracy theories. Beck is routinely called an "anti-intellectual" in the left-leaning press. What such criticisms miss is that moment when Beck brings out a musty old book by an author you've never heard of - and says that it's so obscure he had to borrow it from a library in Kansas. Just then you feel as though you're getting some secret knowledge, as though you're learning something that maybe your neighbor, your husband, your boss and even your smart-ass kid doesn't know. You're Harry Potter at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore is teaching you magic.

Which I found an... interesting choice of metaphor.

Frankly I think if lefties want to move the national politics to the left they should do the same thing within the Democratic Party rather than supporting third parties like Green.

Given how Democrats are still sulking over Nader running as an independent 10 years ago, I can't imagine the bunching of panties that would result from an actual primary challenge. If someone like Howard Dean tried it, he would instantly be branded a traitor who is insuring a Republican victory, etc.posted by Joe Beese at 9:20 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

There is a certain train of thought that says you should not feed into blatantly stupid conversations

I understand that. And I agree that trying to let it pass is OK for a first attempt. But it hasn't worked on Obama's birth certificate. It hasn't even worked on people's belief that he's a Muslim.

Really, though, these personal issues with Obama aren't all that dear to my heart. I'm more interested in the general mechanics of how we engage fellow citizens who believe blatantly stupid things.

Like O'Donnell, for instance. I don't care at all if she, like a million other teenaged girls, played at casting spells. But I care that she doesn't believe in evolution. I want to engage that, and when she evades that it doesn't matter, I want someone to say "look, I have the guts to say I believe in science. why are you ashamed to admit your beliefs?"

I think many of the people involved in what passes for public discourse are trying quite calculatedly to take advantage of people's reluctance to get down in the street and fight it out. So blatantly stupid messages go unchallenged, or rather, half-heartedly challenged. Because no one is willing to play hardball. No one wants to look mean or extreme. The Democrats would rather just try and sneak by

Like this woman here. Our mayors are telling us we can't fly the flag? Put up or shut up, lady. Lou Reed was better after the VU anyway.posted by tyllwin at 9:20 AM on October 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

anyway, I do look forward to seeing a reunited Velvet Underground play a full-on half hour long version of Sister Ray at some future Republican inauguration ball.posted by philip-random at 9:25 AM on October 20, 2010 [3 favorites]

My response would be that this woman is clearly delusional.

To be honest, it also sounds like she doesn't like black people

Oh for fucksake.

This woman is just another fucker who thinks "I know what's best and everyone else sucks."

Really? Because if you read the interview, it looks like she (and thousands of other tea-partiers) is under the impression that's what the government thinks. We need to focus on refuting these claims instead of just calling people delusional racists because of their misinformed views, which does more harm than good.posted by windbox at 9:25 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

I especially enjoyed the parts where Ms. Twain failed to be impressed much by just about everything.posted by dr_dank at 9:29 AM on October 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

Ex-celebrity now selfish. Who would have guessed?posted by caddis at 9:30 AM on October 20, 2010

hooray, the militant arm of the AARP rears it's entitled head yet again. i can't wait for these Medicaid-And-My-Escalade Bolsheviks to start dying off en masse.posted by gorestainedrunes at 9:32 AM on October 20, 2010

Given how Democrats are still sulking over Nader running as an independent 10 years ago

I think the Bush years were kind of traumatic for the left. When something that bad happens, you need to find a reason for it; to understand the source of the trauma may allow you to control it or prevent it in the future. We want desperately to avoid whatever we might have done that allowed that thing to happen. Hence the anger and acrimony about third-party candidates; if that's the explanation that the victim has decided on, then they can't let it happen again.

I can't imagine the bunching of panties that would result from an actual primary challenge.

In what sense are existing contested primaries not "actual primary challenges"?

Why do you imagine that a primary challenge would be judged more harshly than a third-party run? If you participate in the Democratic primary and win, then you're not running around splitting the left's vote, and the Democrats have no reason to be pissed at you. If you participate in the Democratic primary and lose, then if you don't run in the general election, then you're not splitting votes and the Democrats have no reason to be pissed at you (hell, you might even become Secretary of State).

The only case in which a primary challenge would result in the Democrats being pissed at you would be if you ran in the primary, lost, and then ran in the general anyway, because then you'd be splitting the left's votes. They can't let vote-splitting happen again.posted by Jpfed at 9:51 AM on October 20, 2010

Given how Democrats are still sulking over Nader running as an independent 10 years ago, I can't imagine the bunching of panties that would result from an actual primary challenge. If someone like Howard Dean tried it, he would instantly be branded a traitor who is insuring a Republican victory, etc.

I don't understand what you mean, exactly. I'm not a Nader-sulker, but the thing about Nader in 2000 is that he split the left vote. If he'd run in the Democratic primaries against Gore, that wouldn't have happened. That's exactly what my point was, so I don't understand why you bring it up as an argument against me.

Likewise, unless you're talking about the murky territory of enthusiasm gaps or something, I don't see how Howard Dean or someone running a primary challenge in the runup to 2012 could draw criticism of insuring a Republican victory. The thing about the primary system is that it's exactly designed for shifting party alignment, which the general election is not. If Dean ran against Obama within the primaries, the Democratic Party gets to decide whether it wants to be Obama-y or Dean-y. Then in the general, the Democratic Party throws its weight behind the guy that got picked. Thus the party's alignment shifts during primaries. General election voting doesn't affect that.posted by shakespeherian at 9:53 AM on October 20, 2010

She'd be delusional if this was really a statement of her beliefs. But it isn't. It isn't a thought-out statement off things she thinks are facts. It's just an emotional outpouring. And to a large extent I share it. It's not just delusional tea partiers that are angry and frustrated.

I mean, aren't US citizens even here on MeFi angry and frustrated? Well, so are other, perhaps less thoughtful fellow citizens. And they're not really sure who to be angry at. The problem for liberals is that Republicans (and at the rank-and-file level, the GOP and the TP are the same thing) are doing a much better job of directing that anger. Instead of looking for common ground, or common enemies, the Dems call them racists. Way to win friends and influence people there. It just rolls off their backs anyway, because, in many people's view, liberals drop that word at the drop of a hat. It's lost all impact.

And the problem for citizens is that both parties want to protect the real causes of many the problems which are corporations. You don't get a lot of Dems running against Wall Street or Wal Mart, do you?posted by tyllwin at 9:58 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

That was so hard to read. The government taking over the census? What the fuck is she talking about? Who used to do the census in the old days, before the GOVERNMENT took over? She even says, "To be honest, I never paid attention to what the hell was going on." which is reflected clearly in her analysis.

There's something that really upsets me on a visceral level about Moe Tucker. I mean, she's such an obvious dyke or trans person but probably isn't even clear on that herself. I don't have a sense of whether she has any money anymore - she worked at WalMart! Maybe she's broke? She's got a bunch of kids plus grandkids. So maybe that's why she's pissed about the whole "government is stealing my money" thing? I'm sure she saw a lot of awfulness from the "left" in her years in the music and art scenes - so maybe partially this is a reaction to bad personal interactions. On some deep level though it's like she's just totally checked out not just from reality but from her own self. It's actually tragic.posted by serazin at 10:02 AM on October 20, 2010

On the Nader tip: We're having our first Ranked Choice local election this year, and it is such a sane, great system. I pray that someday we'll have that nationally.posted by serazin at 10:04 AM on October 20, 2010

FFS. The comments in that thread are infuriating.posted by Amanojaku at 10:05 AM on October 20, 2010

She's not helping to dispel the old drummer stereotype, is she?posted by Decani at 10:08 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Ms. Tucker came out with some pretty stupid comments in that interview, but have to say I agree with this quote:My philosophy was and is all politicians are liars, bums and cheats.

Since she lives down here in Georgia now, I give y'all my word that I will do my best to counterbalance her votes come November (at least for statewide office). Al though my impression from reading the interview is that she is one of those curmudgeons that likes to complain about everything, but can't be bothered to actually do anything about it, like vote.posted by TedW at 10:08 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Baltimore jokes! Got to love 'em.posted by josher71 at 10:11 AM on October 20, 2010

Fuck, trying so hard not to get beese-railed... I'll start off w/a short reply to Jpfed's "they can't let vote-splitting happen again"...

The issue here is that they aren't acting like they *want* our votes (we = the left). If they acted like it, maybe their recriminations about vote-splitting might mean something.

For the record, I'm voting this election, because I like Feingold and Baldwin, and I don't want a republican governor, even though from what I know, the dem is another centrist. I'm still not sure I'm fully happy. I AM happy to support Feingold, and scared as fuck that he's gonna lose, which is different than being scared as fuck that the other guy is gonna win (although, that too, is the case).

I wanted to favorite pyramid termite's comment, but I take issue with it because the fact of the matter that the so called "small government" folks are only "small government" when it comes to helping the poor. Oh, the "anti-corporate bailout" happened only AFTER Obama was in power, even though it was a bush thing, and being pushed quite hard before the elections... But they weren't saying shit until Obama got in office. The true minority principled ones were, but they're not the actual force beyhind the Tea Party. If they were, then they'd have like no more than 5% (like the Libertarian party tends to get at max).

They are no more small government than a dem is. It's merely WHERE that money goes. Military contracts, private military contractors, corporate tax breaks, etc... They didn't say SHIT about the deficit when Bush kept running up the military budget year after year. Now, I'm not saying the dems are the proper alternative.

I'm just wanting to point out that the "smaller government" rhetoric is just that, spouted out by a few, and believed by even fewer.

Now, I think the point that Bitter Soylent wasn't the eclectoral issue (even though the Green Pary was mentioned as one example). But the media landscape completely and utterly refuses to give credence to anything other than minor demonstrations that support corporate power. No mainstream media outlet showed any coverage of the anti-war protests and how HUGE they were. But they got no problem making it sound like 90% of America is represented by the Tea Party movement. I think that's the issue.posted by symbioid at 10:13 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

"Democrats should spend more time calling them out on and refuting their outlandish statements than simply ridiculing them for being racist/nutjobs/racist-nutjobs."

I don't see how Howard Dean or someone running a primary challenge in the runup to 2012 could draw criticism of insuring a Republican victory.

Because such a challenge would necessarily require unusually sharp criticism of Obama's record - thus "providing ammunition" to the Republican opponent in the general. And not all of that criticism would be liberal in nature. Certainly, Obama's ineffectiveness at reducing unemployment would be mentioned.

Consider this comment about the 1980 election, from a notoriously pro-Obama site:

While Ted Kennedy might not have wanted to run, the Naderite wing of the party promoted his candidacy almost from day 1

Unable to assign any responsibility to the dashboard-saint of the Democratic Party, the commenter hunts down that eternal Goldstein... the Naderites.posted by Joe Beese at 10:18 AM on October 20, 2010

My philosophy was and is all politicians are liars, bums and cheats.

eh, you know that is a valid as "all humans are liars, bums and cheats". We may justify it and defend it as "Yeah but what I did was right because...", but everyone lies, not just politicians.posted by edgeways at 10:22 AM on October 20, 2010

Ms. Tucker came out with some pretty stupid comments in that interview, but have to say I agree with this quote:

My philosophy was and is all politicians are liars, bums and cheats.

Have you given up on voting? If not, who do you vote for?

All politicians are most definitely not liars, bum, and cheats.

The Green Party has not won a primary victory over a deeply entrenched Democratic incumbent.

The "Tea Party" has not won a single primary. The Tea Party is not even a political party. If they had some courage, they'd start a political party. Until they do, it's all Republican astroturf.

I want someone to say "look, I have the guts to say I believe in science. why are you ashamed to admit your beliefs?"

It seems like someone just did.posted by mrgrimm at 10:50 AM on October 20, 2010

edgeways: “eh, you know that is a valid as "all humans are liars, bums and cheats". We may justify it and defend it as "Yeah but what I did was right because...", but everyone lies, not just politicians.”

Exactly. And frankly this is the take when I argue with libertarian conservatives like the Tea Partiers. They're always trying to turn it around and mock me for (reputedly) thinking that government can solve all the problems in the world. I tell them:

"Of course it fucking can't. Never has, never will. But what is going to save the world? 'Market forces'? Virtuous selfishness? Capitalism? Big corporations? NGOs? None of these things can save the world, because human beings are stupid. As we've just seen, if you give a bunch of people a bunch of money and tell them they'll be filthy rich for the rest of their natural lives if they just handle the money well, they will fail. So apparently even your vaunted capitalism – i.e. 'everyone just mind your own business, get as rich as you like, and everything will run smoothly because people are naturally a bit selfish' – is a massive failure. Why? Because, as we've always known, people are stupid. They're they're vain, they're silly, they're petty, and they'll get horny or frightened or angry or belligerent and let you and themselves down at a moment's notice. So don't give me this ridiculous crap about 'government can't save the world' – nothing will. The whole point of this democracy thing was to put all the power and money into a massive bureaucratic structure so that maybe, just maybe, it'd be calcified in that massive edifice in just the right way to keep doing the collateral good it needs to, even whilst it's rigid enough to prevent people from being able to build a nuclear bomb the size of Topeka or a hamburger that gives you cancer."posted by koeselitz at 11:05 AM on October 20, 2010 [9 favorites]

I'm just not seeing anyone actually responding to her opinions.

Okey-doke, let me take a crack at the turtle tunnel thing. The very first link that shows up on a Google search is a HuffPo article that notes that turtles getting mashed by speeding cars is not only bad for the turtle population, but a driving hazard as well, something that I know from first hand experience when I lived in Oklahoma. Coincidentally(or not), the senator who is mentioned in the article as blocking (or trying to block) that spending is Tom Coburn, from Oklahoma, a state which to my knowledge has never turned down a single dollar that they could squeeze out of the federal tit, nor ever would as long as the check wasn't going straight to an abortionist or a Wiccan; again, I witnessed this first hand when the air force base near Enid was slated for closure in the nineties.

Granted, some of the above is from personal experience (and not one that I'd care to repeat, frankly), but it didn't take very long to chase down the basic facts, nor would it have taken Mo Tucker very long to do so, assuming that she wasn't just holding on to her misconception to stoke her resentments,posted by Halloween Jack at 11:07 AM on October 20, 2010

eh, you know that is a valid as "all humans are liars, bums and cheats". We may justify it and defend it as "Yeah but what I did was right because...", but everyone lies, not just politicians.

When I lie about how many beers I had to my girlfriend, it is not the same as a politician lying about where millions of dollars of PAC money went. Or whether they have biological WMD. Or whatever. My lie affects me and the SO.

Political lies can potentially affect millions of lives.posted by Splunge at 11:13 AM on October 20, 2010

Hasn't anyone ever heard of quantitative easing? As long as the rest of the world is in the same or worse shape, our dollars are as good as ever and we can just keep printing them.

Unfortunately, I can't tell if you're kidding or not.posted by IndigoJones at 11:16 AM on October 20, 2010

Splunge: “When I lie about how many beers I had to my girlfriend, it is not the same as a politician lying about where millions of dollars of PAC money went. Or whether they have biological WMD. Or whatever. My lie affects me and the SO. Political lies can potentially affect millions of lives.”

When a CEO lies about whether her company was profitable last year, or about how many people he's going to have to lay off, it can potentially affect millions of lives, too. The point isn't that some lies are more or less important than others; we all agree there, I think. The point is that the Tea Party contention – 'government is evil, and if we just get power out of the hands of government and give it to somebody else' – is ridiculous, because there's nobody else to give it to. All we have is human beings; and unfortunately taking the power and giving it to somebody else who's human won't help a damned thing.posted by koeselitz at 11:17 AM on October 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

It seems like someone just did.

I think he does a pretty good job. I'd like to see more like him. But note that she still never comes out and says what she believes. She just keeps saying that she supports choice in schools. I think it's clear that she's been coached or strategized never to come out and say "I don't believe in evolution." I think there's some mileage to be had in making her either say outright that she does not, or chasing her around and making it clear that she's afraid to give a straight answer.posted by tyllwin at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2010

anyway, I do look forward to seeing a reunited Velvet Underground play a full-on half hour long version of Sister Ray at some future Republican inauguration ball.

We weren't searching for a pipeline,
They had some weapons of mass destruction,
Real dangerous weapons of mass destruction,
Ah, it's just like Mister Bush said...posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:26 AM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

I vote, but usually against the worse candidate. Where I live, even the Democrats are anti-abortion, pro-gun religious zealots.

All politicians are most definitely not liars, bum, and cheats.

Maybe it is just because we have some pretty bad ones down here, but the ones that aren't are few and far between. Even politicians I tend to agree with are usually narcissistic entitled jerks who think the usual rules don't apply to them (John Edwards, for example) However, unlike Tea Partiers I realize that the government is much more than just elected officials and there are are many problems that free markets or lower taxes or deregulation can't solve. It wasn't market forces that eradicated smallpox, for example. It was a large quasi-governmental bureaucracy that did it; potentially saving millions of lives and keeping even more from painful disfigurement.posted by TedW at 11:45 AM on October 20, 2010

" I don't understand why a "third party" gets any publicity at all. The Green Party doesn't."

"The thing I hate about Tea Partiers is how they all get together under the gibbous moon and sacrifice their children to Baphomet. If they'd stop doing that, and stop throwing cinder blocks off freeway overpasses, and start bathing regularly, then I'd be fine with them."

Mrs. W likes him, so I went to a concert this summer. This video implies to me that his politics lean right, but not as far right as some.posted by wittgenstein at 12:17 PM on October 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

I am also against ... the White House taking control of the census (what the hell is that all about?)

Yeah! It's like the President thinks Census Bureau is a part of his Cabinet, or something!

I'm just not seeing anyone actually responding to her opinions.

In addition to the above gem, her opinion is that Michelle Obama is a bad person because she wants kids to eat healthier and exercise. Her opinions are so stupid as to make me question her basic intelligence.posted by dirigibleman at 12:34 PM on October 20, 2010

Because such a challenge would necessarily require unusually sharp criticism of Obama's record - thus "providing ammunition" to the Republican opponent in the general. And not all of that criticism would be liberal in nature. Certainly, Obama's ineffectiveness at reducing unemployment would be mentioned.

All right, I can see that. But getting back to the larger point, I'm still not sure why you disagree with my argument that challenging from within the party structure is more effective than from without.posted by shakespeherian at 12:51 PM on October 20, 2010

Obama tried in this to stay above the fray and look Presidential. I really wonder what would have happened if he'd given an interview and said "I wish people like Bill O'Reilly would stop helping Orly Taitz spread outright lies about me me and my mother."

The whole "be the bigger man" thing isn't working out too well for him.

Tags

Share

About MetaFilter

MetaFilter is a weblog that anyone can contribute a link or a comment to. A typical weblog is one person posting their thoughts on the unique things they find on the web. This website exists to break down the barriers between people, to extend a weblog beyond just one person, and to foster discussion among its members.