Daniel Barbarisi - Dueling With Kings

Bart chats with Daniel Barbarisi, former Yankees beat writer with the New York times that found himself instead deep in the world of daily fantasy sports. Highlights include how deep Barbarisi was willing to go to cash in and how likely it is that you would be able to do the same.

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Danielle this book that a case of some dazzle get these books now say gallery this thing and I read. You know the back cover and then try to fake my way they're interviewed as somebody who has played dead daily fancy sports since Canada right before the boom. Somebody who. Has been told many times this is the date cash out everything you have now this empires baiting and then you still putting fifty the next day. This is a gripping tale of sort of your Immersion. Into this thing and I find it interesting. Really because you started. I mean your beat writer for the Yankees for the longest time. And that Daniels when you kind of that's when you discovered what this old elite fantasy sports world as a buyout. Yeah I mean marketing years and you're actually at most people it would you mind. We're you know I think many people just at a book through a standard dressing. And playing the war from the other course here that of course. In 2015. Me the whole thing very dramatic that's what those people. That. Apple did the company's Kraft came in and probably in the national concert. Go to I was you order a law journal. I think discovered it we'll program any of that year and what it is being super fun but be. It's also created. It seems so big and I actually more people are kind of looking into the so I decided. And try to go into this thing until Rio from inside. Like in column one of the work for the terrible initial order. Yes those sold with these fish. Eye itself Fisher is basically. Well anybody that that I've set up the play these things you you've played daily fancy sports the promise there. As we know is that you can be one of these. They winners now if you do it right. You can win a little bit of money. At the end of the day at the and your bank account you may be even and you may be up a little bit in May have lost oh what happens is with any thing. There's people they gave into it and then there's people ahead of the curve so I may have. I may have known about it but I was not. Ahead of the curve in terms of how to make this really a money making an operation because do you think can I wanna set a daily fancy sports lineup. The understanding is just like with your other fantasy leagues you set the line up you know you're good at sports and you being as close as you're to the Yankees in baseball. You think all right there's a lot of potential for me here but what you learned and what you learn in the book and then. The way you track these people down is great to. That there are these formulas there are databases that are spread sheets there are systems that will enter in salaries for you and make necessary adjustments. So when you play your one line up. You play your one line of that you took twenty minutes to set you think that you're good ago. There's people that have been working the entire day with scripts sending all the stuff getting it ready and they're the ones winning the 101000 dollars. And you lose Tony box on the night and think well I guess I just didn't have the best lineup that night but it's because there's all these sharks which you you became. It wasn't that people were cheating but it was a bit. In their crushed their trying to destroy each other Arab kingdoms and you'll. And it created the world where there were going no checks and balances and allow the best players. To run roughshod over people like me. And so I wouldn't like that I've except I want it's there's been told the story of you to do any good at all possible to become one of these sharks without computer algorithms without doing electronic. So. You know I went and that you noted try to go on them towards each teacher and live among the biggest and best of that world and you know eventually I would be able. In recent Michael look we're we're able to be successful but you know I certainly. They that I get the average person's experience in the sense that doctor it's possible but I also ahead. During the Ganges in terms of who I was before this that all our need to get the kind of mentoring tutelage that most people are not going to be able to. Read today and as you find out that might not even. Manner because I think like I am not a Sports Radio station and I'm a big sports fan. I covered these teams I can. Get the lions suffer everybody else some of these guys that played this stuff this is purely a numbers thing they don't know how to pronounce these guys names. They don't know it and how what they look like they don't know if there why hater of their black. Or of their reds veterans or their rookies but they know numbers. And when you see when you first learned that that's what you're going up against and those are the guys that are beating you. It's a very daunting. But yet I think people are learning that yet people aren't stopping because of Powell. How addicting really games like this czar. Yeah I mean there's no question that it is a lot of all of its very addictive but I certainly sounds very hard to pull yourself away from that you know there's a lot of talk gambling questions that come with that do you know where people are actually getting that people are slow and tons of money at it because. Between the designed that way it it's a lot of fun there are Smart it's. In Egypt lost. But yeah I mean the beginning themselves. More than they need initially we think this sport and sport now what was gonna carry the day but though. Some degree of asking with a sports. And that you are a combined it is and those out so we can meet but at the start of it you know you have to understand things like. Or Linear optimization. And like that correlation to really. Do any good at it and so you know over time he became good at those concepts and those things under some of the best people teaching me but. You know that's not whatever one thinks it is they think it's only you know all of our show up and you're gonna without power in certain. Daniel barber racing the book is dueling with kings. You do when you play drafting as a fan deal the two big ones. You see the same names. We in the same tournaments now they have since taken steps to they'll show if this guy is. A veteran and or they'll show you but but I mean I handles our next to my name I'm certainly not a winning a ton of money on this thing. You see those names and the way you're able to track down these guys are that was remarkable. Yeah I want you consider him one of the things I wanted to do was kind of pull the mask off some of this you know and they locate this or that person has this is they do it. This is that they are you know many people I talk to says oh during Q out of sorts at. Some point this is you. You know really try to tell the real story of what's going on here and children these guys we weren't yet in some order or to crackdowns on work. Bureaucracies some really liked it tensions someone with no part of it but. Collecting an eye on them or to be almost momentary interest in people because. They're very Smart even the ones were a little bit more growth oriented so they are still Smart. You know these are this is a very heartened that people who were the topic. And you know if you're not Smart and practicing and playing pretty stark crude methods are gonna have trouble here. And you know not with the original commercials at they didn't let on to that the guys in when you talk with those experienced I think I seriously and look where. You know recently that they get the best player in the world those idols who will leave those acts celery. Which is if history is only in terms of how he actually took another guy saying in the book but even when I first. Don't imaging has the same experience that he'd. Is what year Adams media and you never would also add that ingredient so. Well things are definitely better in terms of shall we knew he disguised Liggett the question. It's still a little bit deceptive in the I think action are highly bishop or not the sharks are. A lot of people's first Immersion way daily fantasy sports. Was the blitz. That the NFL season a couple of years ago out of in the the Tony fifteenth season. Where the commercials were on all the time I mean you would look at a normal commercial break you would be draft kings motor oil fan dual. Fast food and in the same draft kings commercially just saw. And at that point people started think okay. Are right there is there's an interesting component to this in fact it where's the money coming from how are they getting this much money. Is this stuff even legal the fight that draft kings and fan bill in these companies. Daily fantasy sports and had to gone through. The state that you live didn't is shot at colony and their states that you can't play and you asked that when you putting money you have to specify what state you're in. And if you're in the wrong state you're not gonna get it and this is still an ongoing evolving. Legal matter from the fact that is it gambling or is it not. Yeah I mean that that's of the big fight right now it's happening and the legislators in a cross country at the moment. Because these companies that they did. And the target of all kinds of well deserved attention from the media and from. Regulatory agencies because we're that those questions just mention what is to come out of the get soaked in ammonium that it is in a legal. What they. You know beaten to become begin to become subjects of all those inquiries. Became very clear there should be regulatory cultures too much money well or they're not to. You know it's very much like the idea he treating. But things are that we regularly so when the squad and that we thought might work. Right now I think the industry itself has pulled off. A very impressive blocking it actually they've gotten themselves what we legalize it of course it's you mentioned there were two New York. You're in the top model and they were originally and Bjorkman has built. That legalizing them explicitly. And now they're back in business there was huge victory for media companies but there's a lot of other states Texas being Rutgers and temple where. That battles under way right now and so that's what they're trying to I was actually get. Legislators across countries say OK we're OK with this thing we think it should be legal but we want to make sure they're protections in place. With the average player that you don't have the situation like what I want you talked about where. You know you're getting crushed by the same guy's name me happy that the oil so that's where it out I think it's definitely a better place. But that's mostly because double engine light shut out and be regulatory efforts and can be in Dubai themselves. And you Barbary see dueling with canes. Don't want to ruined much of the book as far as the stories and the friendships that you made. By the will when you sell yours here in baseball your base of the brighter. And they're playing based on games are playing football games. And I don't know why it struck me. As shocking as it did Bo you started talking about you are gonna start playing hockey in your hockey. You light colors not keep you don't know much about Mac years it is like a lot of people baseball football basketball. In the hot key to success. You foray into hockey. Was like the end of the six cents to analyze it there's. Ice I I think audibly gaffes. It is fight going yeah and so when I obviously is discussed it was a baseball guy can make that but I think actually hurt me because I came in a lot of preconceived assumptions and and much more knowledge and I wasn't able to YouTube. You know a little like Hitler and Shelly and sent to really start blank blank slate to be good at this and so you know when I wouldn't mind mandatory I mean. It Judy rader was actually wonderful guys that you goes by the use in the deep and achieved. You said. I'm gonna start you don't choose from scratch and hockey trial like that easy and it's in the book that didn't patent are teaching them any formally I don't know anything about any. But yeah I thought that was good to and it turned out that it was because yes it is. Become very successful. In the Pakistani beat the other day on Saturday we'll meet. Tennessee hockey championship of the world so clearly yeah actually it was certainly the right person or by. But yet what has become a huge hockey and directly as a result. And works with boutiques are banking on that. If they partnered with these companies are gonna care about of Vancouver and Olympic team. At 1 AM on the West Coast finishing out where you're someone from Austin you don't would normally never mention that so I mean I am living proof of that stuff definitely happens. And that's what they're hoping for. Where you're watching airliner incident that late at night that college become a slant when you slide on the line ads and and I was sweating with your tale of how much you're able to win playing hockey it was you know right there which he did a great job in the writing style of I'm keeping everybody engage again the book is doing with kings Daniel barber EC. What are you let the point now where this is your job or war what's your life like now how much are you doing this. I don't you play but no I definitely consider my job I mean yeah. You know I consider myself storyteller and that'll do I got the chance to tell really cool increase Ian is in store here. And it would have been very interesting to do this along the way but that my ambition never been to be at yet as growth. I I can I cash said the other night it's at like three bucks and there's you know overall I'm down but you have a night or UN a little bit in your happy. And I I tell myself I'm not gonna play anymore and then I get a free entry. And I think I really like this lineup. Am okay output in ten dollars. As far as my friends now I'm. One of those few guys left that are still playing it but mine's very. I do one friend who he did have a big one not like like you guys have been able to him but he had a big enough wine. Where he's been able to play for awhile and what he'll do every night now. I think he plays NBA alive. He'll do half internment and try to win big there. And you do a different line up for for the cash games so that he can win on the 5050s and keep going he's kind of got his method. And we all look at him like is he's a genius. But again compared to the the level of techniques and in the computer simulations the right. I mean how much of that is still. Relevant where you can you can work nine to five right ending come home essential line out but you have to go against our guys that are setting. Script some days that's not happening a lot. I think the script verdict and it's not as big of a concern anymore uncertainty out there but not a big deal. It's fortunately you know yeah look I don't really really good at what they're doing they're really practiced and you actually I think that the underrated part of it. Which is that. You're coming home and spending a lot in perhaps an eloquent Atlanta then there's other guys who worked on its mining camp. You know it kind of is the biggest names of the pros have and they put all of their time intelligence into it. And it paralysis from showing up and saying we let's have a little fun. And so you're almost playing a different game to some extent at this point I. Don't put in the lineup generally speaking unless I have for an hour to work. And you know it and you're not doing that you may be setting yourself up for failure in the short term if doing so long. When you when you need four or five dollars. To dual line up as opposed it just thirty minutes. Without David I mean if you wanna whatever you wanna give away five it. What do you do in that time consent there's people that I if you tell him if you wanna win you get to see you at the duo of five our line up. And they might think well what am I looking for is five dollars a set this a person lineup that's continued along. Well it doesn't have to but I just sent out immediately revival announced that it has been. It every game deserves rigorous analysis and an aerial has to be you know essentially tested I had my own incomes. That didn't theories that I employees you know I'm not in outgoing person and all but I'd really like to go over. All the potential combination that's a possibility really trying to bet the stepped on the break everything down. You know I'm selling analysis letters between the different every day it really gets some extent the puzzle and not try to figure that called out and so you know it. There's a lot you can that there's no way he can take a lot of time you can really work or and sometimes I feel like okay that didn't take that long and sometimes they'll feel like 0:7 o'clock it's agreed that our on this because. These gains all for a lot of different statistical possibilities and I'm not really sure what happened yet so. You know you can put as much time. And a lot of time I was vote on the animals. Do you think overall. Daily fantasy sports is is good for sports is good for these games 'cause there's there's a lot of positives to it. I mean it gets more attention nine games and you might have people buying the MLB extra innings package to watch pod juries Mariner's. You know and they normally OneCare but there's also the point where. And Twitter is a big part of it. You give people yelling and athletes. You can get athletes that are playing. You give people mad and they hit their more looked at his commodities now than they are players of their favorite sports teams. Well I think that's you know worker currently seen as more people wanting. Things that didn't used to immediately gratified to have direct connection you know you're in every walk of life at this point in the social media thing. Technology related thing that we all expect. To having individual investment whatever the heck is going on in front of us. We are not going to be passive consumers. And I think that's whether that's quarter that is so big your mind the mind argue but I think it's where we are. And I think will be certainly believe it. And the idea that. This is how they are going to keep people rebels on your screen typically used to be all about view rights and you get contracts at all and core earnings changing all that things are going different elections. So they are now about how to adjust for this so. I think that's or in in general to be correct and you're gonna he has moved probably I would say toward more European model. Years. Don't know exactly how that's going to shake out yet but I think we're out there so you know in terms of the the good or bad habit I think we just say that when it. So for a normal guy like me. Yeah its agony for Tony minutes or so normal guy like me on the and go home the night Allen plays some lineups. MD is there I get discouraged though because I I don't have the time I don't have. The methods that you and BP in a Jeep and all these guys have. Ken normal people. Like me. That play can you win the 101000 dollars can you win the 100000. Dollars can you can you do that. Without taking the route of being a shark. Like you had to do great wanna write a book about something and then for profit off that as well that that worked great Korea. There ticket can't get a guy like me go on and win money or do I had to take your route. And you yes and do I think you're going to tonight. And that's no insult your intelligence. But I mean it certainly possible but you know what this supplement the 15% of people. You know that well what is at this point literally. Let you know. Look at you're going into the unit as well I think you look at which is entertainment. And supplements to keep you warned me in the games are probably you're gonna watch wonderful he should do it. You're going there thinking I'm gonna prop up this every day and make a lot of money in the significantly nuke year. I would tell you to your Gator because I'm Lester it's incredibly super seriously. You know the idea is that yes you can you can get lucky you can have a delicate line up and or can afford to buy. It's pretty hard to beat consistently profitable and not putting in the real time or effort or others that sort of you know. Yeah it actually is possible that's which can't be done but you know people need to wreck more than flipping between the at the beginning. The commercial side otherwise people the direct United's Gary Hart and it takes a lot you're not just gonna show up. And it doesn't work that way. Commenting at two Summers ago. I Wear two different jobs of an hour apart side drive don't whine and then I'd drive to the next on and in that hour. You are also I handle credit card debt at the time. To move that earned the right time to be doing this so I'm driving down. And on the drive a momma phoned. And I'm playing the Tony seven dollar MLB. Draft canes and I'm just spending money and spending money we're NN now I think is much better I'll play. You know the five the single entry 32 I'll play fifteen dollars and nine and and and have fun and enjoy but not get too crazy but it is very easy. To fall into that trap. Well yeah but the experience I mean what you just described I've done that we see in those settings lineups on the dry it and be like oh well. Let's do and so while they only have in the three dollar Russia and the 27 and Russell spoke expelled. Expect that I put in the Pitney so you know it starts to snowball the manner. And then the value and you only had put it in the three. And that you're like I should 015 grand sucked in the next day am chasing that money that I never had that there's a lot of that states to. I mean they're even not even happen with professional I would doubt in Miami's region with several these guys and I would actually lose. Sunday night. And we're the big pros was. Accurate dinner and eat. At taken lightly and he put in thousand dollars was obviously a lot of money but for him presumably that's ten to 151000 bank. And he won 50000 up thousands and you would think he'd be happy but he was kicking himself because you'd literally played attempt that would normally he played normal. You know he couldn't. Incredibly you know like changing night. So. I mean it even happened a quiet levels were these guys are still having that that. Regret. The same one we're having over thirty dollars it's it's a strange world. Like any time you bought at a casino that's fire loser because he when you win and you think well the 600 dollars and one that's not enough I wanna win. 12100 and then by the time you leave your down 12100 so as long as play moderation to their Greg games and the journey that she went nine. Dueling with kings the book Daniel barber EC I think is a fun read especially. If you are. If you are playing fantasy sports weather's just for fun or if you are looking to win money there's a whole another part of it that I think. Is surprising to people that you'd do a great job. Taking us through I still. I'm very skeptical that you can walk away from it though so if you were able to do that I'll be very impressed. Archival. What you know I mean. Yeah it's gonna find out the hard way. That they're there yet the very apparently Daniel at such a pleasure to talk to you the book terrific. Make sure to give this is in front of as many guys as we can again doing with kings. Best of luck playing for however long you play. Thank you reverend art appreciation of the good lucky. If you got it right.