I have allways been a fan of the Withmore federal pen. That one on the west side of town that nobodys ever been in.

Well, I couldn't find the last topic on it, so why not start anew?

Pro's- Prison has it's own economy; gang activity both NPC and PC; char's build a prison rep; would be good for people that can't afford the fines IE a week in prison *And they can get contacts in the jail!* ; provides characters an out as an alternative to cryo or banishment when caught (Give them the choice of 25 years in the pen or 5 in cryo!) where they can actually continue RP in the prison.

cons; Not a big playerbase in the prison(I would dedicate a char to it myself); would rely alot upon GM actions;

I just vision the WJf sendning Joe snuffy into the pen, and he is forced to join the sinners, arts, snakes, etc for two weeks to survive before he gets out in the streets and has to align with them there too, or maybe the warden has it out for them and uses them joining a gang to harass the shit out of them?

I dunno I'm drunk but the idea itself is one worth a new discussion.

By Biohazard at Sep 5, 2009 10:47 PM

It'd be an interesting thing to do for sure, I'm not even sure if there's anything beyond the fascia exterior at the moment although I think Bishop had plans for it back in the day.

Implementing it as a fully functioning micro environment within the game would probably take a lot of work, some kind of controlled interactions with the outside world, internal features, etc.

I actually like the idea of an entire sub-game type setting where you could remote micro-manage a gang in the outside world, turn-based strategy style turf wars, allocate resources, gang hostilities, etc. Given that Withmore theoretically extends miles beyond the in-game locations there's scope for gang wars beyond the boundaries of the city center RP zone. It'd give players in the pen something to do and add something new to the game, but it'd be a large scale feature to implement.

Aside from that, hrm, smuggled mobile phones or some kind of SIC trickery to let imprisoned players communicate with the outside world, probably on a limited/flakey basis.

I've imprisoned a player once in the past as part of a plot and thankfully she was very understanding as I think it was over two weeks before things fell into place for a player coordinated rescue. (Funny story in which I forgot to add a door when I linked the prison area to the city and almost the entire player base swarmed in to rescue her while I was still building the place. Ended up with a bunch of players waging an epic combat with an admin in disguise, so I let them beat on me for 10-15 mins, KO'd a few then fled the scene in true super-villain style.)

Anyhow, to make player imprisonment workable I reckon you'd be looking at major feature additions, perhaps something on the scale of the badlands (years of work) or the in-game matrix (never finished?). Honestly I think it'd be time better spent improving existing under-utilised aspects of the game rather than further diluting the player base.

(Edited by Rastus2 at 11:29 am on Sep. 7, 2009)

By Rastus2 at Sep 7, 2009 9:28 AM

I dunno if it would require a sort of code so much as more GM intervention. You wanna call shots to your boyo's in the outside; kill another inmate for a NPC and get some cash from him, flip it to the shady guard to give you a progia, make some calls, stash it, and maybe it gets found in a cell sweep, resulting in a beatdown from the loyalist guards.

Hell, you could instruct some players to go to jail with smuggled contraband on them too. Stick that progia up your ass!

heh probably wont happen, just thought it'd be a good alternative to players who just realistically cant make the fines, or those super-max types that want to continue their characters life span.

By Biohazard at Sep 7, 2009 9:47 AM

I guess it could work on a purely GM driven basis but I'm not sure how practical it would be as a long term addition to the game. Perhaps as part of a short/medium term plot it'd be pretty cool but in the long term I think it'd pull a disproportionate chunk of GM resource for a small portion of the player base. Ideally you'd want to have a coded structure supplemented by GM interaction otherwise I think you'd end up depending heavily on GMs with nothing much to do in their absence.

It's actually occurred to me that I've twice imprisoned a player as part of a plot and in both cases they mentioned it being something of a negative experience, although tolerated for the purposes of the plot in progress. I forget who the first one was, she was kidnapped by cannibals in Bansupuro. The second was Gally, kidnapped by a schizophrenic rogue AI. Anyone who thinks the MOO is too "fluffy bunny" today should have seen it back then, in both cases the entire player base teamed up even when offered huge incentives to double-cross each other.

Don't get me wrong though, I actually like the idea, a little more diversity in the punishment side of Withmore law would be good.

Slightly related, there used to be a roaming vehicle-bot that wandered around the streets collecting street sleeping vagrants and dumping them in a holding pen that required a fine to get out of. Something from the mind of FS if I remember rightly, but it got borked by my vehicle revamp (along with the old bus system pre-maglev) and I never got round to fixing it. Someone should fix that if it still exists. :)

By Rastus2 at Sep 7, 2009 4:12 PM

Local bus route sounds fun.

I've been held captive a good bit of times, personally, and had the occasional captive myself. Response is iffy at best. Some hate, some love. Short term captivity within' 24 hours with plenty of attention is ideally appreciated. Beyond that it seems enjoyed for the light at the end of the tunnel at best. Alignment/Involvement of the playerbase is capable of stimulating activity usually, however, with the current hierarchy of players it would require alot of NPC intervention to coordinate the various PC's.

It is always fun to watch the mouses run through different mazes that leads to the same cheese but SD's walls are vague at best.

I think prison would work spectacularly as a lower level/transitional experience of the RED sector demographic but due to the minimal pbase of SD would be incapable of prospering without a complete overhaul of automated system that would leave the impact of said player to that of a web based "strategy" game.

I always envisioned Withmore as a prison in of itself before the open immigration policy. Everything is locked in. Criminal resources scarce without the right connections.

I'm sure there's more to write here but I'm lazy, half-drunk and on my way out. Discuss amongst yourselves...

Before vehicles and the mag-lev existed there were shuttle buses that ran from one end of each express tube to the other. The one between red and gold was disabled for a while when two players "stole" the clone tank from Genetek as it wasn't locked down, so we blew it up while they were on the bus. :lol:

I doubt they'll ever come back, they were entirely replaced and improved on by the maglev loop not to mention taxis and player owned vehicles which didn't exist at all back then.

With regards to the prison thing, I think you've summed it up rather neatly. It could be a really neat new aspect to the game, but with the current player base and resources it'd probably end up as an under-utilised area after some initial flavour of the month popularity.

Actually, if char-gen ever gets revamped into a system that channels players into different start areas based on character make-up/history then the prison would be ideal as a release point for characters with a criminal history coming to the end of their jail term. Add some code to pre-generate a criminal record with the WJF, prison release "newbie pack", gang affiliation and some directions/mission type objective with a first NPC to visit to find work on the outside.

By Rastus2 at Sep 8, 2009 9:08 AM

If we had a larger player base then prison would be a definite option. However, reading this post, especially the forced labor part, I've come to another idea.

What if there was a 'jail' meant for short term shit. Somewhere between a fine and clone death. A place where you were sent, perhaps the existing prison structure, where you had a coffin, access to the SIC (perhaps just in specific areas) and the ability to 'work'.

You would be sentenced to a certain amount of 'work hours'. It wouldn't really be about 'money' but about paying off your debt to society.

Instead of the Judges giving you clone death, for your repeat offenses, given that death really isn't that big a deal, since you have a clone, you'd get dumped into the prison and wouldn't be able to leave until you had logged enough hours of 'work'.

The work part would be pretty dull I expect, but in the process of working you could be making connections with some of the NPCs that have much longer terms then you. IE: 10-15 years. These NPCs would be a mix of new and existing NPCs. You could make connections, form alliances, etc.

There would be the opportunity, some times, to shorten your stay by doing favors for guards, or other inmates with pull.

The sentences would carry a maximum of say, 24 hours. That means something like a week in jail for a normal player.

I think not only is this a good alternative to clone death, but also a great motivator to breed smarter criminals and less flagrant law breakers.

As it is now, if you're caught, you're most likely out in an hour with clone death. No biggie to a player, but if you might get tossed in the pen for 5 hours of work, that takes you off the streets where you do your biz. Stops you from making money.

You would still have the SIC for the most part, so you would have the ability to communicate and RP using that, but you couldn't backup your friends, etc.

Also, I think combat would most likely be restricted except in certain 'off-limits' areas that you would need a guard to let you into. So no running around attacking the first NPC you see in order to get killed and clone out of prison, but still leaving it possible to catch a beat down, or beat someone else down, even kill them, if they fuck with you.

The gangs would be predominant in there. Picking one is your best way to survive and prosper, but you wouldn't be in for very long stints, though you could have repeted visits.

Perhaps, there would even be scale. Say you're busted, the judge doesn't get to decide how long you go in for, you just get dumped in, the prison knows if you have been there before or not, and it decides automatically how long you stay.

Etc, etc. The more you go, the longer your stay. Sort of like how your chance of catching DCD goes up the more times you clone.

I think this is a happy median between a working prison and a realistic long term addition to the game. It's also keeping with CP as the corps would be paying for the prison in return for having menial labor jobs completed (think SHI).

The book of law could even be amended so that crimes carry an initial prison sentence. The tac-comps would track how much time you'd spent in prison. Clone deaths would only be dealt out to repeat offenders. Instead of banishment or cryo, longer prison terms could be served. IE: 48-72 hours of work logged.

I think this is a good way to get around the 'well we banished them and they snuck back into the city so nothing has really changed' problem.

It puts a real fear into the character and into the player, without completely cutting them off from RP and their release date is dependent on their own work.

Quote: from Slither on 12:05 am on Sep. 9, 2009[br]If we had a larger player base then prison would be a definite option. �However, reading this post, especially the forced labor part, I've come to another idea.

What if there was a 'jail' meant for short term shit. �Somewhere between a fine and clone death. �A place where you were sent, perhaps the existing prison structure, where you had a coffin, access to the SIC (perhaps just in specific areas) and the ability to 'work'. �

You would be sentenced to a certain amount of 'work hours'. �It wouldn't really be about 'money' but about paying off your debt to society.

Instead of the Judges giving you clone death, for your repeat offenses, given that death really isn't that big a deal, since you have a clone, you'd get dumped into the prison and wouldn't be able to leave until you had logged enough hours of 'work'. �

The work part would be pretty dull I expect, but in the process of working you could be making connections with some of the NPCs that have much longer terms then you. �IE: 10-15 years. �These NPCs would be a mix of new and existing NPCs. �You could make connections, form alliances, etc.

There would be the opportunity, some times, to shorten your stay by doing favors for guards, or other inmates with pull.

The sentences would carry a maximum of say, 24 hours. �That means something like a week in jail for a normal player. �

I think not only is this a good alternative to clone death, but also a great motivator to breed smarter criminals and less flagrant law breakers.

As it is now, if you're caught, you're most likely out in an hour with clone death. �No biggie to a player, but if you might get tossed in the pen for 5 hours of work, that takes you off the streets where you do your biz. �Stops you from making money.

You would still have the SIC for the most part, so you would have the ability to communicate and RP using that, but you couldn't backup your friends, etc.

Also, I think combat would most likely be restricted except in certain 'off-limits' areas that you would need a guard to let you into. �So no running around attacking the first NPC you see in order to get killed and clone out of prison, but still leaving it possible to catch a beat down, or beat someone else down, even kill them, if they fuck with you. �

The gangs would be predominant in there. �Picking one is your best way to survive and prosper, but you wouldn't be in for very long stints, though you could have repeted visits.

Perhaps, there would even be scale. Say you're busted, the judge doesn't get to decide how long you go in for, you just get dumped in, the prison knows if you have been there before or not, and it decides automatically how long you stay.

Etc, etc. � The more you go, the longer your stay. �Sort of like how your chance of catching DCD goes up the more times you clone.

I think this is a happy median between a working prison and a realistic long term addition to the game. �It's also keeping with CP as the corps would be paying for the prison in return for having menial labor jobs completed (think SHI).

The book of law could even be amended so that crimes carry an initial prison sentence. �The tac-comps would track how much time you'd spent in prison. �Clone deaths would only be dealt out to repeat offenders. �Instead of banishment or cryo, longer prison terms could be served. �IE: 48-72 hours of work logged.

I think this is a good way to get around the 'well we banished them and they snuck back into the city so nothing has really changed' problem.

It puts a real fear into the character and into the player, without completely cutting them off from RP and their release date is dependent on their own work.

that's actually a really fuckin good idea

By Biohazard at Sep 9, 2009 6:59 AM

Thanks. Let's discuss it. Can you guys think of anything negative that would come of this? Would it hurt the game more then it would help? What do you think of the sliding scale for how long you stay based on previous visits?

I fear the dull mediocrity of typing 'work' over and over more then anything else in SD. So I think gulag approach kinda kills it. I mean do we really want more things keeping players apart from eachother?

However, with the limited pbase domeside these days it seems there isn't much else to do then automated tasks. So maybe I'm wrong. Best bet in my opinion would be to present some kind of new frontier to Sindomians ala the badlands.

Hypothetically, an orbital platform of sorts where PC's mine asteroid or in this case a possibly the volcanic depths of the cities foundation for rare minerals in exchange for cold hard chy (used to buy them their freedom). Skills would come into play here. Some players might just be forced to use their brute strength, others operate complex machines, blow things up, etc. Also the dynamic room folding system used in the badlands and quite possibly the random generation of room from a certain spiders lair could be employed here to create a freeform prison where the landscape is dictated by the miners.

Damn, that was a tangent...or we could always invest this kind of effort into the grid. :1337:

The grid is a different animal. We can't really improve the current system, we need to revamp the entire system and something like that would take time. The prison system on the other hand I could probably code up in less then a day.

I think I'm one of the only non admin that has seen the prison, and it was pretty damn spiffy. I don't know what it looks like code wise, but it didn't seem like it would take alot to make it workable. I think it'd be a good way to build RP. A great alternative to other punishments, Yall don't want to loose all them fancy warez if you get put in lockup now do ya? could create jobs for pc's etc. be real fun if there were enough criminals that you had 2 or 3 people in there at once. Espically ones that normally wouldn't RP with eachother.

@Jotun, that was my first thought as well. It would be great to toss two players who are either enemies, or from different sides of the tracks, or copie / mixer into prison, in a place where combat is not really possible, and make them RP with each other.

Before vehicles and the mag-lev existed there were shuttle buses that ran from one end of each express tube to the other. The one between red and gold was disabled for a while when two players "stole" the clone tank from Genetek as it wasn't locked down, so we blew it up while they were on the bus. :lol:

Yep. That was me and Tiny waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when, maybe in 1999. Fun times!

2CH,

Grim

By Grim at Jan 12, 2010 3:06 PM

That aside, I like the idea of your prison approach, Slither. Though I feel that SIC availability should be limited, if not cut off completely. In a real prison, you don't have access to any means of manipulating the outside world for very long periods of time. Your mail and correspondence are searched, your phone calls monitored, and there are guards within earshot when you are being visited. Perhaps only designated areas should be allowed for outside communication, and only for very limited amounts of time. Say ten to thirty minutes max per day with such privileges being revoked for bad behavior. Additionally, since this is a prison, there should be a place for solitary confinement for the real trouble makers. Also, if you die in prison, you should clone in prison or not at all. Otherwise we'd have people offing themselves just to escape prison and flee from Genetek.

Any thoughts on my ideas?

By Grim at Jan 12, 2010 3:17 PM

Having been to prison in rl, and experiencing it first hand I can say that communication with the outside is a big issue. Just about everything you do is monitored to some extent. However, criminals don't stop breaking law when they go to jail. There is a thriving blackmarket in a prison setting, so cellphones are somewhat commonplace, and so are snitches who might tell a guard who is in possession of one. Random shakedowns of cells are always fun too. But the point of all this is, there are tons of opportunity for good solid rp in a setting like prison. Especially between two people who might never even speak to each other on the outside. Rival gangs work together quite regularly on the inside, shared goals can work wonders for bringing people together, and there are lots of shared goals in prison.

By Vermilion at Jan 12, 2010 6:50 PM

just bumping this topic for discussion.

one point I noticed, the negative side;

Being handcuffed, naked, and left in a one room apartment with nothing but a wallscreen to stare at. Got it.

In prison though; Open cell time where you can wander about the prisoner area's. Shower room where you can be brutally raped/ brutally rape folks, an exercise yard where you can workout and hide shanks, pass cigarettes, etc etc.

I think all this included with the tedious 'work' idea would go nicely. And as said in a previous post, breed smarter criminals.

By Biohazard at Jan 3, 2011 8:23 AM

Alls I can say is... If this goes live i'm buying a cortex bomb.

Being locked away, and being raped or raping npcs/players doesn't sound like a load of fun for me.

But I guess it's pretty much the same as idling in a cube, so why not.

By DigitalTyranny at Jan 3, 2011 8:33 AM

Not at all the same as idleing in a cube.

The rape was sarcasm. Saying it is the same as being locked in a cube means you've completly missed the points brought up in this discussion.

By Biohazard at Jan 3, 2011 8:35 AM

No.. I haven't missed the points....

I always take in account the players who don't want to be locked up away from active RP whether it's a consequence or not. Some people rather just clonedeath and move on... Sooo I can just visualize people logging off and on to check when they can get out...

The problem with discussion around here is we always tend to skip out on the negative angle of every idea, and I just throw it out there but no one ever seems to like thinking there's a downside for some people to every good idea for others.

Last time I was locked up I bit my tongue off and tried to choke myself so I could get back to RP... Firestorm wanted to beat me senseless.

Just saying...

You guys gotta prepare for the player who isn't gonna be happy with something so it's not a shock to ya. If you beat up an immi a few weeks fresh in the dome, sometimes they don't log back in... If you lock them up in a cage, I'd personally expect the same result, whether they can have open cell time or not.

Just my observation of player behavior...

By DigitalTyranny at Jan 3, 2011 8:42 AM

Prison would best be an option or alternative to those who don't want to be fined 45000 chyen or clone deathed. And there are plenty who would take it. Typically new players aren't the ones with crime streaks.

Just sayin.

"You guys gotta prepare for the player who isn't gonna be happy with something so it's not a shock to ya."

When are players ever happy with something nowadays?

By Biohazard at Jan 3, 2011 8:47 AM

I don't see this as being much different than being locked inside.. let's say San Mara. No SIC in that location either, but there are different rooms to explore, NPCs to interact with and jobs to do. This is no different, except for the area and type of RP being done.

By FireStorm at Jan 3, 2011 8:48 AM

Good point FS. And Bio I do think it's a good idea.

The only way I manage to stay sane in San Mara is the prospect of roaming the desert and running crates to buy goods in the stores. It's the idea of being in fallout that makes people love the badlands =-p

I don't know if it's entirely the same to be locked in a sterile jail scenario but i think we should try it.

By DigitalTyranny at Jan 3, 2011 9:13 AM

Well, there could easily be a work type station where you earn a measly income of next to nothing to buy things in the prison store (just like real jail!) Which is pretty CP. The Man making you work for next to nothing then taking it from you when you spend it on overpriced BS. Cigarettes, lighters........cigarettes....

By Biohazard at Jan 3, 2011 9:19 AM

I think there should be some honeypot at the end though, heavy GM interaction, contacts, it shouldn't be too elusive to a duller player, but a constant for survival.

I think that'd be pretty damn cool to get out and have avenues and options for future crimes.

By DigitalTyranny at Jan 3, 2011 9:20 AM

You'd get what you put into it. Wanna just hangout in your cell the entire time and do your time in peace? You probably won't get shit out of it. Mix and mingle out in the yard, you'll probably make some friends/enemies/chyen. That's really the main drive behind the idea. Think of it as College for criminals.

By Biohazard at Jan 3, 2011 9:23 AM

Ya i didnt anticipate a slacker gaining anything, no I agree fully, it's good for the professional criminal RPers out there.

I anticipate us crime of passion people to just sulk in our cells. Hehe

By DigitalTyranny at Jan 3, 2011 9:24 AM

Mmm...so much anger and hostility.

I don't think it's a bad idea. It just seems kinda unnecessary to separate players further from eachother with such a small players base as is.

I really think amping up the pbase should be the main focus here. I also made some other fun points in previous posts before the thread got sloppy. Feel free to go back and read them.