Frankly his eyes keep shifting around as if he's lying. Calvinism reminds me of Trotskyists I used to know. The ignorance and irrationality is manifest to the outside, but they can't even see it because they're totally intellectually isolated in their hermetically sealed ideological cloister. (They have some lovely tulip gardens in there, though.)

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on this "reformed minister" and save him.

These drunken preachers scare me.

My brother is like that too. He says a little wine is good for the stomach, so he laces his liter of Pepsi generously with brandy, and then proceeds to swallow one gulp every few minutes until he is quite mellow, but then he continues drinking until he becomes quite argumentative and drowsy. This continues day after day, yet he denies that he has a problem with alcohol. He says that alcohol loosens his tongue and enables him to speak more eloquently. Oh yeah. Then he says that the Orthodox Church is not the true church because the anti-Baptist church predates it.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on this "reformed minister" and save him.

These drunken preachers scare me.

My brother is like that too. He says a little wine is good for the stomach, so he laces his liter of Pepsi generously with brandy, and then proceeds to swallow one gulp every few minutes until he is quite mellow, but then he continues drinking until he becomes quite argumentative and drowsy. This continues day after day, yet he denies that he has a problem with alcohol. He says that alcohol loosens his tongue and enables him to speak more eloquently. Oh yeah. Then he says that the Orthodox Church is not the true church because the anti-Baptist church predates it.

Funny man. He says, "I don't want to be a historical Christian." Yet, in the same speech he criticizes other people for being "historically ignorant." So, which one is a good attitude: to know history (and then one has to know also about the 7th Ecumenical Council, which refutes everything this man says about icons), or to remain blissfully ignorant?

Well, right up front he says people are historically ignorant, but then he conflates one bishop tearing an image down with the Church not allowing images. So he may be historically well read, but his understanding of history, and specifically the ecclesialogical history of the Orthodox Church, is horrible.

Well, right up front he says people are historically ignorant, but then he conflates one bishop tearing an image down with the Church not allowing images. So he may be historically well read, but his understanding of history, and specifically the ecclesialogical history of the Orthodox Church, is horrible.

Meh, seems to me the guy isn't historically well read, but spent 10 minutes on wikipedia and has a printout for reference.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Nope. There can't really be any apologetics here. All he did was make some statements. He makes some leaps, such as "they pray to pictures" (which in itself is not entirely true. We pray to those depicted. We venerate icons in order to venerate that which is depicted, not the depiction itself) becomes "bowing down, praying to idols." That's not the same thing as "pray to pictures." He also makes the statement, "The Bible says not to do that." He doesn't actually quote Scripture, much less expound on it in any way.

The only argument that kind of gives pause a little bit is his mentioning of the letter of St. Epiphanius of Salamis to St. Jerome, in which St. Epiphanius recounts entering a church and finding upon the curtain (apparently the altar curtain?) an image of Christ (or some saint). I found the passage. I'll give the full section for context. It's quite large. It reads:

Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort— opposed as they are to our religion— shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A man of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offense unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge. Beware of Palladius of Galatia— a man once dear to me, but who now sorely needs God's pity— for he preaches and teaches the heresy of Origen; and see to it that he does not seduce any of those who are entrusted to your keeping into the perverse ways of his erroneous doctrine. I pray that you may fare well in the Lord.

It does need to be pointed out that St. Epihpanius is a pre-schism Orthodox saint, a contemporary of St. Jerome. He wrote many apologies against both the Arian and Origenian heresies. "Salamis" was a city of Cyprus. It's ruins still stand today.

This does seem to be something to tackle. It seems, though, that it already has been. If you google "Epiphanius of Salamis iconclasm" for several pages of search results you will find nothing but links concerning the book Epiphanius of Salamis, Doctor of Iconoclam? Deconstruction of a Myth by Fr. Stephen Bigham. The book was published by the Orthodox Research Institute in 2008 (according to Amazon) and Fr. Stephen is an Orthodox priest, who has apparently done quite a bit of scholarship against the work of comtemporary iconoclasts (Protestants). In addition to this work, he has also penned Early Christian Attitudes towards Images (also published by the Orthodox Research Institute).

I've flipped through a few reviews of these books by Fr. Stephen, and have yet to find a bad one. It seems that the book on St. Epiphanius gives texts that supposedly "prove" his iconoclasm, and does a good job airing both sides before concluding that these are fabrications, and that the holy saint never wrote such things, but that they were added by iconclasts (I suppose in the 8th or 9th century).

And that's about it. Hope that helped!

EDIT: I also feel that I should add how odd it sounds that if a saint (or even Christ) is depicted on the curtain, an Orthodox bishop would tear it down. I mean, God did command the Israelites to craft curtains with cherubim depicted on them...

"Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubim of cunning work shalt thou make them." (Exodus 26:1)

« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 12:56:58 AM by Benjamin the Red »

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

who cares what these guys really think? We're not helping the faith or strengthening our own by giving air time to these people. Let them vent and vent some more. Eventually, the hot air runs out.

I think its useful for inquirers to see Orthodox systematically dismantle arguments such as this against the church. Someone may have seen this video and curious to know the Orthodox response to such.

I think it is a good thing that we continue to post videos here criticizing the faith and be able to respond to the criticism.

I agree even to the extent of having a section specifically for debunking these videos and other forms of dis-understanding.

I second.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

You may be right. I am hoping that in the near future, thanks to the proliferation of Internet sites and cable channels, there will be more documentaries about Orthodoxy, to show some of the real history of the Church. Unless people take a Comparative Religions class or are willing to trek down to the library, a lot of people won't find other ways of learning this sort of thing. Thus they become liable to believing any false rumor or stereotype that fills in the gap.

Unless people take a Comparative Religions class or are willing to trek down to the library, a lot of people won't find other ways of learning this sort of thing.

Even the comparative religions class wouldn't be enough. My friend was a religion major in college and she said that they didn't even spend any time on Orthodoxy. Catholicism, Protestantism, but no Orthodoxy. She did complain to the department about that, though.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Unless people take a Comparative Religions class or are willing to trek down to the library, a lot of people won't find other ways of learning this sort of thing.

Even the comparative religions class wouldn't be enough. My friend was a religion major in college and she said that they didn't even spend any time on Orthodoxy. Catholicism, Protestantism, but no Orthodoxy. She did complain to the department about that, though.

Unless people take a Comparative Religions class or are willing to trek down to the library, a lot of people won't find other ways of learning this sort of thing.

Even the comparative religions class wouldn't be enough. My friend was a religion major in college and she said that they didn't even spend any time on Orthodoxy. Catholicism, Protestantism, but no Orthodoxy. She did complain to the department about that, though.

That doesn't surprise me at all. I've seen supposedly serious reference books on Christian art which begin with the works of Cimabue and Giotto (turn of the 14th century).

"It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder..."

Wait, so St. Epiphanios saw an image that was possibly Christ (though he doesn't remember who, exactly) and then deems that it should be torn down, on account of the fact that it is an image of "A MAN"?! This is too fishy, and it sounds exactly like the kind of Nestorian confusion coming from most Reformed iconoclasts - i.e., you can't paint images of Christ because it only depicts his human nature, which is impossible! You can't worship images of a mere man!

This has GOT to be a forgery, or St. Epiphanios has some seriously deficient christology.

"It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder..."

Wait, so St. Epiphanios saw an image that was possibly Christ (though he doesn't remember who, exactly) and then deems that it should be torn down, on account of the fact that it is an image of "A MAN"?! This is too fishy, and it sounds exactly like the kind of Nestorian confusion coming from most Reformed iconoclasts - i.e., you can't paint images of Christ because it only depicts his human nature, which is impossible! You can't worship images of a mere man!

This has GOT to be a forgery, or St. Epiphanios has some seriously deficient christology.

Most scholars agree it's a forgery.

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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Frankly his eyes keep shifting around as if he's lying. Calvinism reminds me of Trotskyists I used to know. The ignorance and irrationality is manifest to the outside, but they can't even see it because they're totally intellectually isolated in their hermetically sealed ideological cloister. (They have some lovely tulip gardens in there, though.)

Did you actually listen to his reply? He didn't make a blanket statement that RCs are going to hell. In fact, he said; "I do believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are saved people. They worship the same God as I do. They do it in the name of Jesus... I believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are saved by Jesus Christ on the same grounding as I am. The sheer grace of God, mediated through Christ, which neither they nor I deserve."

I don't know who this man is, and I don't agree with his theology, but I don't accept that we should twist his words. So he disagrees with Eastern Orthodoxy, big deal. Let's not get all partisan and lose objectivity.

As for the comment, whoever made it about the beer bottles, it looks like he has a couple of collector's items on his shelf. Two bottles does not an alcoholic make. Ad hominem isn't a pretty thing, no matter who is one's opponent.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 08:38:29 PM by Riddikulus »

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Frankly his eyes keep shifting around as if he's lying. Calvinism reminds me of Trotskyists I used to know. The ignorance and irrationality is manifest to the outside, but they can't even see it because they're totally intellectually isolated in their hermetically sealed ideological cloister. (They have some lovely tulip gardens in there, though.)

Did you actually listen to his reply? He didn't make a blanket statement that RCs are going to hell. In fact, he said; "I do believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are saved people. They worship the same God as I do. They do it in the name of Jesus... I believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are saved by Jesus Christ on the same grounding as I am. The sheer grace of God, mediated through Christ, which neither they nor I deserve."

I don't know who this man is, and I don't agree with his theology, but I don't accept that we should twist his words. So he disagrees with Eastern Orthodoxy, big deal. Let's not get all partisan and lose objectivity.

As for the comment, whoever made it about the beer bottles, it looks like he has a couple of collector's items on his shelf. Two bottles does not an alcoholic make. Ad hominem isn't a pretty thing, no matter who is one's opponent.

I agree. I didn't see any problem with this fellow's eyes either.

By the way, thank you Benjamin the Red for that excellent post.

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

"It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder..."

Wait, so St. Epiphanios saw an image that was possibly Christ (though he doesn't remember who, exactly) and then deems that it should be torn down, on account of the fact that it is an image of "A MAN"?! This is too fishy, and it sounds exactly like the kind of Nestorian confusion coming from most Reformed iconoclasts - i.e., you can't paint images of Christ because it only depicts his human nature, which is impossible! You can't worship images of a mere man!

This has GOT to be a forgery, or St. Epiphanios has some seriously deficient christology.

Most scholars agree it's a forgery.

Bingo!

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

I fourthe - if there is such a word. Not all of us have a computer with earphones or speakers set up, and it would be a good idea to have a section which relies on such devices separate from those threads which consist entirely of written posts.

I've no idea who this bloke is who you are all talking about, but if he gives a poor presentation of Protestantism or an inept critique of Orthodoxy, surely it would not be hard to find someone equally crass or clumsy trying to speak on your behalf.

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

What is interesting in watching this is the duality again, He can not get past the "praying to pictures" (he gets it much more than he is letting on, he's just trying to be dismissive) but he does pay "intellectual homage" to his church fathers, take a look at the "icons" of their works behind him on the shelves.

Wow, it so reminded me of so many discussions with pastors growing up.

He had another video on whether a wife should follow her husband into Orthodoxy, His answer is 'no'.

The encouraging things we can take from these videos is that he has to be dismissive of our practices because he does not want his intended audience to really look into Orthodoxy, so instead paints it as foolishness (which he wouldn't do except he saw it as a threat), and he has had to face people leaving his church to Orthodoxy, otherwise I doubt such questions would arise.

Well, right up front he says people are historically ignorant, but then he conflates one bishop tearing an image down with the Church not allowing images. So he may be historically well read, but his understanding of history, and specifically the ecclesialogical history of the Orthodox Church, is horrible.

He's not well read in this area for the story he talks about in regards to a bishop tearing an image down is known by scholars to be a forgery. A good book that helped me out in this area was:

What is interesting in watching this is the duality again, He can not get past the "praying to pictures" (he gets it much more than he is letting on, he's just trying to be dismissive) but he does pay "intellectual homage" to his church fathers, take a look at the "icons" of their works behind him on the shelves.

Wow, it so reminded me of so many discussions with pastors growing up.

He had another video on whether a wife should follow her husband into Orthodoxy, His answer is 'no'.

The encouraging things we can take from these videos is that he has to be dismissive of our practices because he does not want his intended audience to really look into Orthodoxy, so instead paints it as foolishness (which he wouldn't do except he saw it as a threat), and he has had to face people leaving his church to Orthodoxy, otherwise I doubt such questions would arise.

The C.R.E.C. (the denomination the pastor in this video started) has alot of people in it interested in either going to Rome or Orthodoxy, and so he has to make videos about us for those reasons.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

I've not read a lot of debunking going on, just a lot of criticism of his personal appearance and whether he's an alchoholic or not. Thank you minasoliman and riddikulus for at least bringing some balance. So what he's not the sharpest tool in the box? If he's speaking out of turn then it's because he's lost and blinded, i'm sure he doesn't need to happen across an Orthodox site and find he's berated as well?

Is this good for inquirers to read?

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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

The encouraging things we can take from these videos is that he has to be dismissive of our practices because he does not want his intended audience to really look into Orthodoxy, so instead paints it as foolishness (which he wouldn't do except he saw it as a threat), and he has had to face people leaving his church to Orthodoxy, otherwise I doubt such questions would arise.

The C.R.E.C. (the denomination the pastor in this video started) has alot of people in it interested in either going to Rome or Orthodoxy, and so he has to make videos about us for those reasons.

I personally know or know of a handful of people who have gone to Rome or Orthodoxy who were associated with the particular theological movements within the Reformed world that formed the current intellectual makeup of the CREC. (They're looking for a sort of Reformed Catholicism or somesuch nonsense.) Heck, I used to read Doug Wilson years ago -- he's kind of funny, in a smartass way, but his critiques of Orthodoxy are mostly colored by what he knows of post-Reformation Rome contra the Protestants.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

I've not read a lot of debunking going on, just a lot of criticism of his personal appearance and whether he's an alchoholic or not. Thank you minasoliman and riddikulus for at least bringing some balance. So what he's not the sharpest tool in the box? If he's speaking out of turn then it's because he's lost and blinded, i'm sure he doesn't need to happen across an Orthodox site and find he's berated as well?

Is this good for inquirers to read?

Who are you mostly talking about? I actually have a certain level of respect for pastor Wilson.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

The encouraging things we can take from these videos is that he has to be dismissive of our practices because he does not want his intended audience to really look into Orthodoxy, so instead paints it as foolishness (which he wouldn't do except he saw it as a threat), and he has had to face people leaving his church to Orthodoxy, otherwise I doubt such questions would arise.

The C.R.E.C. (the denomination the pastor in this video started) has alot of people in it interested in either going to Rome or Orthodoxy, and so he has to make videos about us for those reasons.

I personally know or know of a handful of people who have gone to Rome or Orthodoxy who were associated with the particular theological movements within the Reformed world that formed the current intellectual makeup of the CREC. (They're looking for a sort of Reformed Catholicism or somesuch nonsense.) Heck, I used to read Doug Wilson years ago -- he's kind of funny, in a smartass way, but his critiques of Orthodoxy are mostly colored by what he knows of post-Reformation Rome contra the Protestants.

Yeah, I know people and know of people who are into him as well.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

I fourthe - if there is such a word. Not all of us have a computer with earphones or speakers set up, and it would be a good idea to have a section which relies on such devices separate from those threads which consist entirely of written posts.

I've no idea who this bloke is who you are all talking about, but if he gives a poor presentation of Protestantism or an inept critique of Orthodoxy, surely it would not be hard to find someone equally crass or clumsy trying to speak on your behalf.

Preacher David,

You might actually like him. He's different from some of the other American evangelical protestants that you are use to.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.