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No, it was unintentionally unkind and I'm sorry for that. I could not believe anyone would see my point as anything but the analogy I intended. I'm sorry my meaning was not more clear in my original post, and certainly no insult was intended!

That only shows how you have to choose words carefully.

Originally Posted by the.peregrine

OK, let's just say that the person who is bleeding thousands of dollars will perceive it as wasted money (when he finally wises up). That money will not keep flowing if people get insufficient return on investment, and we have a professional responsibility to see that they get do.

Of course you must be professional and try your best to explain, but people who hire other people have most of the time not the slightest idea what they need to contribute. It is in all professions like that.

Educating them is fine as long as the customer has the time and/or interest. They hire you and want you to wave that magic wand and make everything alright and perfect for them without having to get involved too much. That is your job in their eyes and it is right to think that. And yes, they are ignorant often and underestimate what things will cost in time and money, but again, it is so in all service oriented jobs.

Add to that the horrible and mediocre taste level, the low percentage of income most sites will generate as opposed to a physical presents for those clients, it is hard to convince them to pay more than they have budgeted based on their perception. Combine all those points and you end up where you are today in this industry. I do not see a change anytime soon, there are too many parallels in other industries to point to the same mentality.

Look at architecture as an example. The horror that is committed with cookie cutter places and shoddy workmanship. It can all be done better and people are mostly aware of it, but they could not afford to buy a place that would cost five times as much, but they have been sold and bought the illusion that the place would be almost as good as the real one. So it is with websites. People who get stung by unprofessional "professionals" have just bought their own unrealistic dream. And so it is and will be, that is how most humans live in all their endeavors.

Originally Posted by the.peregrine

Also, I think most of us would agree that we get more job satisfaction out of producing something that benefits our customers, as well as ourselves. It's the best way to keep a customer, too. I'd much rather take the time to educate a customer now than have him call me up later to tell me he thinks my work is a waste of his money.

Job satisfaction always comes from being in the driver's seat, and I agree that you should try to educate the client as much as is reasonable. When a client is too inflexible or unwilling, I personally would part ways. That is what you have to find out before you get too deeply involved. You have to become a reader of people to avoid getting trapped. Many things can indicate to you in the first interview if you can work with this person/firm. Formulate your questions in such a way that the client will reveal to you what you need to know before you start. Unreasonable expectations will float right to the top that way.

Meh, just don't, Ramone Johnny. No other professional would waste time with a cost breakdown.

The reality is: it's either worth your price to your client, or it isn't. If it isn't, justifying it isn't going to change that. If it is worth your price, they have no business trying to get you to pay less by asking you to "justify" your bid.

Meh, just don't, Ramone Johnny. No other professional would waste time with a cost breakdown.

The reality is: it's either worth your price to your client, or it isn't. If it isn't, justifying it isn't going to change that. If it is worth your price, they have no business trying to get you to pay less by asking you to "justify" your bid.

I know, you're right. Im just having a whinge. Its amazing just how many times you hear "Really, that much????"

Which is usually quickly followed by "My brothers son is in high school, hes a whiz with computers, he said he'd do it for $100"

I'd hate to say it, but some government intervention and regulation into our web industry might help, particularly in the US and UK where I hear most of the complaints from. Let's not go as far as forming a web developers' union but we need more legal backing to make our jobs worthy in the market.

And while they seem hokey to other people, I welcome more web design classes in colleges and universities. The more universities that place a significant amount of web-related material in their curricula, the more it will be respected as a career path by outsiders. We just gotta figure out a way to distinguish the accredited 4-year universities from the "money traps" of shady technical colleges. Then people would be more comfortable with approaching web professionals with a "no questions" approach that we normally tolerate with people in more established careers.

You shouldn't be giving a complete play-by-play of your job in order to justify your rates. What kind of place is it where people are more skeptical with a web designer than even a fortune teller, when it comes to selling your services?

You guys can't sell a diamond Rolex watch to a kid that wants to spend $10 on a Wal-Mart special.

Stop building sites for clients and make them for yourself. I started a web design company 4 years ago, created 1 web site and that was it. Every site I have developed since has been for me.

Gee. You make it sound so easy.

I do develop sites for myself. Infact Ive developed 5 websites for myself over the past few years. However the bottom line is, I have bills to pay, I have to make a living. Sure my websites make some money, but its nowhere near enough to live off.

Developing sites for clients isnt exactly my preference, but I have to get by.

I'm still not convinced regulation will work. I have friends who run their own Financial Advice company, they used an Indian company to build their site. At the end of the day, they went on price. My friends are based in the UK, so that would have by-passed any UK or US regulation (if we ever have that). Maybe we just have to accept that it is the nature of the beast

I saw something in abother thread that leads me to suggest some correlations between education and better websites.

Once when asked the benefit of higher education, an educator reminded that a proper college education trains one to think. That sounds pretty logical. Then, with that in mind .. look at the way many sites are put together.

Another variable in the correlation may well be the "Google generation" (another thread) .. which seems to be about one-click people who "want it right now!" Assignments, term papers and dissertations plaigerized or blatently copied from the web.

So, are most of the "less-good" websites copied? HTML, CSS, scripts copied from repositories, put together poorly, etc, etc. Lots of people can do that with a minimum of "thinking".

However, coders and designers doing unique work have to "think", not copy. On the other hand, do many fly-by-nighters need to do it "right now" to justify their prices?

What about Unionizing? The Local 00010101? Yes that's right, it would be in binary!

Seriously though, we could set our own standards/certification as Union members, and guarantee that Union labor web sites are worth more than non-unionized cobweb sites. We could create our own apprenticeship program that is based on expereince and peer reviews. In turn, we could ask for money that we deserve. Government agencies would be first to use us, then big companies, and so on.

This is the same problem that was experienced in the past with carpentry, and every other skilled labor. The hacks taking the professionals jobs.

What about Unionizing? The Local 00010101? Yes that's right, it would be in binary!

Seriously though, we could set our own standards/certification as Union members, and guarantee that Union labor web sites are worth more than non-unionized cobweb sites. We could create our own apprenticeship program that is based on expereince and peer reviews. In turn, we could ask for money that we deserve. Government agencies would be first to use us, then big companies, and so on.

This is the same problem that was experienced in the past with carpentry, and every other skilled labor. The hacks taking the professionals jobs.

What a lot of old toffee. Will we have a secret handshake too?

There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

Even if you have standards and a union in your own country, the web is global and a customer can still use a web company in another country. I guess you have to find customers who want a professional service over one who wants cheap at any cost.

I'd hate to say it, but some government intervention and regulation into our web industry might help, particularly in the US and UK where I hear most of the complaints from. Let's not go as far as forming a web developers' union but we need more legal backing to make our jobs worthy in the market.

No, we don't. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to create a website for them. Until that happens, the government has no business getting involved.

If your clients won't pay you what you want, refuse to work for them. It's not the government's job to force your clients to pay you what you think you deserve.