Check out this NY Times article about Thomas Jefferson. It gives you an idea of why it's so hard for law schools to close, even when they are floundering.

Good read. Even with the creditors taking a big haircut though, that restructuring should be a scarlet letter on the law school. But if the federal government loans it they will come regardless. Disgusting.

I wouldn't be so down. TJSL went from 422 1L's in 2010 to just 241 last fall despite lowering its medians from 3.0/151 to 2.84/145. All the underhanded tactics in the world won't allow them to fill up a class with people paying real tuition money if things keep heading this way.

Bar passage standards are another way to finally lower the boom. Only 45% of TJ's grads passed the CA bar on their first try last summer, and that number will surely come down as fewer and fewer qualified people matriculate. The ABA isn't real strict on this count but it at least puts some pressure on TJSL not to simply accept everyone who applies.

Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:Even in the boom times I don't see how this many law schools should be functioning. I get that federal debt is inflating the whole game but theres a huuuge mismatch. There's like 200 something aba approved schools and we're on here talking about only the top 30-40 having any kind of reliably good outcome.

There's also a lot of cherrypicking/Special Snowflake Syndrome going on. Even the shittiest school will have a few successful alumni they can splash all over their webpage without acknowledging how atypical those outcomes are. Or at least, only indirectly acknowledging it by burying it in deep in an inconspicuous corner of the website in tiny text.

Does anyone know why the ABA decided to basically give accreditation to virtually any school? Is it because money? It doesn't take a genius to see that having 100 diploma mills with horrible employment and bar passage rates is diluting the value of a JD.

Worrying about the bottom law schools is such a waste. Their graduates aren't taking your jobs. For those that fail, they probably didn't have shit going for them anyways - so no real loss. Any of them succeeding is just a cherry on top, because they bettered their situation a lot. If you are concerned about the inevitable bubble years later from the student loans, eh this is nothing different from basically all higher education. If you are concerned about evil people making money without adding value, welcome to American capitalism. But TLS focuses way too hard on this issue of "law schools need to close," but its a pretty minor problem in the scheme of things.

The problem 5 years ago was that they weren't transparent. Now that they are transparent, it's a fine buyer beware.

JohannDeMann wrote:Worrying about the bottom law schools is such a waste. Their graduates aren't taking your jobs. For those that fail, they probably didn't have shit going for them anyways - so no real loss. Any of them succeeding is just a cherry on top, because they bettered their situation a lot. If you are concerned about the inevitable bubble years later from the student loans, eh this is nothing different from basically all higher education. If you are concerned about evil people making money without adding value, welcome to American capitalism. But TLS focuses way too hard on this issue of "law schools need to close," but its a pretty minor problem in the scheme of things.

The problem 5 years ago was that they weren't transparent. Now that they are transparent, it's a fine buyer beware.

True. However, I think that most people on TLS aren't really concerned about TTT students crowding the market and stealing their jobs. It has more to do with the fact that diploma mills dilute the prestige a JD for no reason other than to fill the pockets of scammy law school administrators. And I don't mean this in a "I'm an attorney therefore I deserve preftige and respect" sort of way. It's just that there is literally no need for more attorneys- the market has shown this year after year. If these diploma mills were serving a purpose, then sure, who cares about prestige. But when literally anybody who signs up and can take the LSAT can go to law school, take out federal loans, and go into soul crushing debt, this hurts the profession in the long run. And for whose benefit? No one but the clowns who run the scam law schools.

So what I'm gathering here is: "These other ignorant fools are taking out soul-crushing debt without a hope of repaying it, but ultimately I am the vitctim because it decreases the prestige of my noble profession!"

nosocat wrote:So what I'm gathering here is: "These other ignorant fools are taking out soul-crushing debt without a hope of repaying it, but ultimately I am the vitctim because it decreases the prestige of my noble profession!"

No. I definitely think they are the victims, which is one of the reasons I think so many people on TLS care about this. It just seems wrong for so many schools to be enriching themselves through scam tactics, even if these students are partly to blame.

The scam itself makes the profession less noble and taxpayers paying for it kind of kills the capitalism argument. Otherwise I agree with Johann. Things are much more reasonable now than before and whether there are 50k grads or 25k the TJSL kid was never going to take your spot at Cravath. I mostly just enjoy the schadenfreude of watching TTT deans and professors attempt to hang on for dear life.

Moneytrees wrote:No. I definitely think they are the victims, which is one of the reasons I think so many people on TLS care about this. It just seems wrong for so many schools to be enriching themselves through scam tactics, even if these students are partly to blame.

Ok. Your last post seemed to imply that your biggest concern with the scaminess is not about the students whose lives are ruined by this system, but that it decreases the overall prestige of a JD, which I found amusing/self-centered. But I agree with you here.

I'd say HYS is pretty isolated, although I do know H people who hate Biglaw, but are trapped there because of their debt. PSLF-eligible jobs that are somewhat prestigious aren't even a sure thing for H grads--they're not sure things for anyone because there are simply not a lot of jobs at all due to poor budgets.

CCN are not isolated, though. Obviously, it's an exception (and not the rule) at these schools, but like I've mentioned before, in my previous "volunteership," I worked with two grads from CCN who held my very same position. I'm pretty sure their university was giving them a better stipend than me, though, because mine didn't even amount to minimum wage, and I was living in a roach-infested tenement where the hot water was shut off due to my deadbeat landlord. I found a 24-hour gym that had a 1-week free trial where I showered at night while the gas company took their time turning heating gas back on. I can show you the letter I wrote to the state commerce commission about my shut off heating gas if you don't believe me.

And like I've said before, the bottom half of the T14 is absolutely not isolated. Not too long ago, a bunch of unemployed UVA students pulled this stunt:

This is the kind of thing that, as an 0L, I might have looked at with anger, thinking something like "stupid entitled punk millennials think they are entitled to 6-figure jobs just because they got into UVA." But you just don't understand until you've gotten plowed over by the legal education-industrial complex. Many of these people likely had $200K+ of debt, and were legitimately scared because they had no conceivable way to pay this off--and of course their school had absolutely no plan to employ people who missed out on OCI. Why would they be scared of this? Because it is precisely true--there is no plan to do anything for students who miss out on the Biglaw boat. Obviously a few are able to find something decent, but this happens almost exclusively though good connections, good timing, or simply good luck--because the hard math shows that this is a very tough road to hoe.

At least this UVA student found a more creative outlet to express his or her agony and turn it into something constructive:

Not to pick on UVA exclusively or anything...it's just that GeorgeTTTown gets picked on enough. But you could probably tell a similar story about a lot of other "top tier" schools. Perhaps things are getting better for the bottom of the classes at these places, because Law School Transparency and increased scrutiny are finally making this a bigger priority.

And to answer people's questions...no, those school-funded jobs are not desirable. They are a Hail Mary for people with no other options, and there's no guarantee anywhere that a job will open up at these non-profits or government orgs. Because the schools don't control the budgets--quite often some Tea Party legislature does, and one of their main goals is to get rid of everyone who could possibly sue a business no matter how egregious or illegal the behavior. Also, it's very normal that these orgs will have dozens of volunteers. Like I said before, legal aid in my last state didn't even have office space left for me to work for free. Even if a position does open up, you'll have 12 people competing for one spot--all of whom volunteered at the same org and all probably did a decent job. Not to mention the 1,000 other people that volunteered there in the past trying to apply. And then you'll have some ex-Biglaw partner apply for the job after a mid-life crisis (who already has enough money to retire, but needs it for vanity purposes), and he or she will get the job, and all the new grad volunteers will be SOL.

If you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not, because I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

Last edited by JCougar on Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'd say HYS is pretty isolated, although I do know H people who hate Biglaw, but are trapped there because of their debt. PSLF-eligible jobs that are somewhat prestigious aren't even a sure thing for H grads--they're not sure things for anyone because there are simply not a lot of jobs at all due to poor budgets.

CCN are not isolated, though. Obviously, it's an exception (and not the rule) at these schools, but like I've mentioned before, in my previous "volunteership," I worked with two grads from CCN who held my very same position. I'm pretty sure their university was giving them a better stipend than me, though, because mine didn't even amount to minimum wage, and I was living in a roach-infested tenement where the hot water was shut off due to my deadbeat landlord. I found a 24-hour gym that had a 1-week free trial where I showered at night while the gas company took their time turning heating gas back on. I can show you the letter I wrote to the state commerce commission about my shut off heating gas if you don't believe me.

And like I've said before, the bottom half of the T14 is absolutely not isolated. Not too long ago, a bunch of unemployed UVA students pulled this stunt:

This is the kind of thing that, as an 0L, I might have looked at with anger, thinking something like "stupid entitled punk millennials think they are entitled to 6-figure jobs just because they got into UVA." But you just don't understand until you've gotten plowed over by the legal education-industrial complex. Many of these people likely had $200K+ of debt, and were legitimately scared because they had no conceivable way to pay this off--and of course their school had absolutely no plan to employ people who missed out on OCI. Why would they be scared of this? Because it is precisely true--there is no plan to do anything for students who miss out on the Biglaw boat. Obviously a few are able to find something decent, but this happens almost exclusively though good connections, good timing, or simply good luck--because the hard math shows that this is a very tough road to hoe.

At least this UVA student found a more creative outlet to express his or her agony and turn it into something constructive:

Not to pick on UVA exclusively or anything...it's just that GeorgeTTTown gets picked on enough. But you could probably tell a similar story about a lot of other "top tier" schools. Perhaps things are getting better for the bottom of the classes at these places, because Law School Transparency and increased scrutiny are finally making this a bigger priority.

And to answer people's questions...no, those school-funded jobs are not desirable. They are a Hail Mary for people with no other options, and there's no guarantee anywhere that a job will open up at these non-profits or government orgs. Because the schools don't control the budgets--quite often some Tea Party legislature does, and one of their main goals is to get rid of everyone who could possibly sue a business no matter how egregious or illegal the behavior. Also, it's very normal that these orgs will have dozens of volunteers. Like I said before, legal aid in my last state didn't even have office space left for me to work for free. Even if a position does open up, you'll have 12 people competing for one spot--all of whom volunteered at the same org and all probably did a decent job. Not to mention the 1,000 other people that volunteered there in the past trying to apply. And then you'll have some ex-Biglaw partner apply for the job after a mid-life crisis (who already has enough money to retire, but needs it for vanity purposes), and he or she will get the job, and all the new grad volunteers will be SOL.

If you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not, because I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

I'd say HYS is pretty isolated, although I do know H people who hate Biglaw, but are trapped there because of their debt. PSLF-eligible jobs that are somewhat prestigious aren't even a sure thing for H grads--they're not sure things for anyone because there are simply not a lot of jobs at all due to poor budgets.

CCN are not isolated, though. Obviously, it's an exception (and not the rule) at these schools, but like I've mentioned before, in my previous "volunteership," I worked with two grads from CCN who held my very same position. I'm pretty sure their university was giving them a better stipend than me, though, because mine didn't even amount to minimum wage, and I was living in a roach-infested tenement where the hot water was shut off due to my deadbeat landlord. I found a 24-hour gym that had a 1-week free trial where I showered at night while the gas company took their time turning heating gas back on. I can show you the letter I wrote to the state commerce commission about my shut off heating gas if you don't believe me.

And like I've said before, the bottom half of the T14 is absolutely not isolated. Not too long ago, a bunch of unemployed UVA students pulled this stunt:

This is the kind of thing that, as an 0L, I might have looked at with anger, thinking something like "stupid entitled punk millennials think they are entitled to 6-figure jobs just because they got into UVA." But you just don't understand until you've gotten plowed over by the legal education-industrial complex. Many of these people likely had $200K+ of debt, and were legitimately scared because they had no conceivable way to pay this off--and of course their school had absolutely no plan to employ people who missed out on OCI. Why would they be scared of this? Because it is precisely true--there is no plan to do anything for students who miss out on the Biglaw boat. Obviously a few are able to find something decent, but this happens almost exclusively though good connections, good timing, or simply good luck--because the hard math shows that this is a very tough road to hoe.

At least this UVA student found a more creative outlet to express his or her agony and turn it into something constructive:

Not to pick on UVA exclusively or anything...it's just that GeorgeTTTown gets picked on enough. But you could probably tell a similar story about a lot of other "top tier" schools. Perhaps things are getting better for the bottom of the classes at these places, because Law School Transparency and increased scrutiny are finally making this a bigger priority.

And to answer people's questions...no, those school-funded jobs are not desirable. They are a Hail Mary for people with no other options, and there's no guarantee anywhere that a job will open up at these non-profits or government orgs. Because the schools don't control the budgets--quite often some Tea Party legislature does, and one of their main goals is to get rid of everyone who could possibly sue a business no matter how egregious or illegal the behavior. Also, it's very normal that these orgs will have dozens of volunteers. Like I said before, legal aid in my last state didn't even have office space left for me to work for free. Even if a position does open up, you'll have 12 people competing for one spot--all of whom volunteered at the same org and all probably did a decent job. Not to mention the 1,000 other people that volunteered there in the past trying to apply. And then you'll have some ex-Biglaw partner apply for the job after a mid-life crisis (who already has enough money to retire, but needs it for vanity purposes), and he or she will get the job, and all the new grad volunteers will be SOL.

If you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not, because I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

I'm obviously biased, but there is one major thing, besides employment outcomes, that differentiates GULC from UVA: UVA has cut its class size by ~50 students and takes on 4-5 transfer students a year while GULC continues to bring in both a large 1L class and a monstrous class of transfers. It's hard to justify what GULC is doing right now when you look at legal hiring market.

And the reality is that this problem pretty much extends across the entire T-14 with the exception of Yale; Yale's loan repayment program is easily the most generous I know of (http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/finaid_COAP.htm). The reality is that Yale students don't need big law, or any kind of legal job period, to pay off their student debt.

It also hurts in general that governments (city, county, state, and federal) are still not hiring and likely won't be hiring in any large numbers for the foreseeable future.

What bothers me the most about the vast majority of law schools is that they are essentially putting students into debt all the while knowing that a significant number of students won't be able to pay back their student loans through traditional means (i.e. paying off the balance of the loan with wages earned on the job). I had one professor in an 1L class - admittedly, this professor is a bit of an outlier - who did not understand why were so worried about student loans since there are programs such as PAYE.

UVAIce wrote:I'm obviously biased, but there is one major thing, besides employment outcomes, that differentiates GULC from UVA: UVA has cut its class size by ~50 students and takes on 4-5 transfer students a year while GULC continues to bring in both a large 1L class and a monstrous class of transfers. It's hard to justify what GULC is doing right now when you look at legal hiring market.

And the reality is that this problem pretty much extends across the entire T-14 with the exception of Yale; Yale's loan repayment program is easily the most generous I know of (http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/finaid_COAP.htm). The reality is that Yale students don't need big law, or any kind of legal job period, to pay off their student debt.

Yeah, what Georgetown does with its insanely large class size and admitting like 100 transfers that all pay sticker but don't have the same job prospects is kind of inexcusable. It makes a bad situation worse, especially because FedGov positions that a lot of people think they're going to get from Georgetown simply do not exist anymore.

It also hurts in general that governments (city, county, state, and federal) are still not hiring and likely won't be hiring in any large numbers for the foreseeable future.

This probably hurts the DC-area schools disproportionately more in particular. But yeah, it's not just FedGov that's "broke." (I actually don't think FedGov is nearly as broke as people make it out to be...it's really only "broke" as an excuse to push austerity measures instead of closing tax loopholes, etc.--but they're going to treat it as broke nevertheless, and the entry-level jobs barely exist). Cities and states have a budget crisis as well, including all the ones I happen to have ties to. No one is getting hired.

Yeah, I know...c/o 2010. But even now, he's pretty much screwed. No firm will hire you if all you have is LSAT prep on your resume, even if you have a Columbia JD. There's no question as to whether that dude is smart enough to do the work, but if you have 1,000 applications for every job opening, his resume will obviously be one of the first ones to be dropped straight into the wastebasket.

bearsfan23 wrote:So JCougar thinks there is a "significant difference" between H and CCN? What a joke. This guy never attended any of those schools yet he thinks he's an expert.

JCougar, if you put as much time into literally anything else as you do complaining about the legal profession on TLS, you might not be miserable 100% of the time

You've got to be kidding. If anything out of all the tiers that this website has made up that's the one with the biggest difference. Really it's pretty obvious when you look at any sort of job other than working at a big NYC law firm. Especially with federal government jobs and clerkships.

Last edited by BruceWayne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, I know...c/o 2010. But even now, he's pretty much screwed. No firm will hire you if all you have is LSAT prep on your resume, even if you have a Columbia JD. There's no question as to whether that dude is smart enough to do the work, but if you have 1,000 applications for every job opening, his resume will obviously be one of the first ones to be dropped straight into the wastebasket.

When this guy matriculated, at least the market was still good so he wasn't completely irrational. When the market was terrible, there were still tons of 0Ls clamoring to go to law school and pay a shitload of money. I just don't get it. And now 0Ls are wanting to pay 250k+ for a biglaw job that only pays 160k? WTF is wrong with these poor broke ass people. It's like they have never managed money before or don't understand that there are other options besides law school.

They should just ban people from going to law school straight out of undergrad - make them work for 2 years or do something else entirely. This way they might actually understand the value of money and maybe make them get out of tunnel vision of law school. I think the oldies tend to understand the big picture better (and are usually better off financially) and in my experience, make better students.

Yeah, I know...c/o 2010. But even now, he's pretty much screwed. No firm will hire you if all you have is LSAT prep on your resume, even if you have a Columbia JD. There's no question as to whether that dude is smart enough to do the work, but if you have 1,000 applications for every job opening, his resume will obviously be one of the first ones to be dropped straight into the wastebasket.

When this guy matriculated, at least the market was still good so he wasn't completely irrational. When the market was terrible, there were still tons of 0Ls clamoring to go to law school and pay a shitload of money. I just don't get it. And now 0Ls are wanting to pay 250k+ for a biglaw job that only pays 160k? WTF is wrong with these poor broke ass people. It's like they have never managed money before or don't understand that there are other options besides law school.

They should just ban people from going to law school straight out of undergrad - make them work for 2 years or do something else entirely. This way they might actually understand the value of money and maybe make them get out of tunnel vision of law school. I think the oldies tend to understand the big picture better (and are usually better off financially) and in my experience, make better students.

Completely agree with the second paragraph.

Regarding the first point you made, I don't think it's irrational to pay sticker at a school like Columbia, where you are virtually guaranteed a Biglaw job. Law isn't a particularly great investment, nor is it a quick way to get rich, but if you play your cards right it can be a stable and well-paying field in the long run. The average Columbia grad probably makes millions over the course of his/her career.

The issue is that the vast majority of schools have virtually no Biglaw placement but cost the same as elite schools like Columbia, so even students who are borrowing relatively low amounts of money to finance their education will struggle to pay back their debt.

Yeah, I know...c/o 2010. But even now, he's pretty much screwed. No firm will hire you if all you have is LSAT prep on your resume, even if you have a Columbia JD. There's no question as to whether that dude is smart enough to do the work, but if you have 1,000 applications for every job opening, his resume will obviously be one of the first ones to be dropped straight into the wastebasket.

When this guy matriculated, at least the market was still good so he wasn't completely irrational. When the market was terrible, there were still tons of 0Ls clamoring to go to law school and pay a shitload of money. I just don't get it. And now 0Ls are wanting to pay 250k+ for a biglaw job that only pays 160k? WTF is wrong with these poor broke ass people. It's like they have never managed money before or don't understand that there are other options besides law school.

They should just ban people from going to law school straight out of undergrad - make them work for 2 years or do something else entirely. This way they might actually understand the value of money and maybe make them get out of tunnel vision of law school. I think the oldies tend to understand the big picture better (and are usually better off financially) and in my experience, make better students.

Completely agree with the second paragraph.

Regarding the first point you made, I don't think it's irrational to pay sticker at a school like Columbia, where you are virtually guaranteed a Biglaw job. Law isn't a particularly great investment, nor is it a quick way to get rich, but if you play your cards right it can be a stable and well-paying field in the long run. The average Columbia grad probably makes millions over the course of his/her career.

The issue is that the vast majority of schools have virtually no Biglaw placement but cost the same as elite schools like Columbia, so even students who are borrowing relatively low amounts of money to finance their education will struggle to pay back their debt.

I think the average Columbia grad leaves the law and I don't know how that JD really helps making that money. Your argument about making millions (if true) was back in the day for Boomersy when making millions was easier. Our generation is much more FUCKED from the start with a shittier economy, much more expensive education, and limited movement in jobs (and Boomers are working until 90) - so I don't see how we can compare with the Boomers. I honestly think my parents paid a total of 2k for 4 years of college back in the 1970s. They were also making six figures in the 1980s with only undergrad degrees since the economy was better.We won't be making millions like the Boomers did - we're going to be working until 90 (not making millions) just to survive since we won't even have Social Security and COL is through the roof in places where there are law jobs. (And by we, I mean most of our generation, not me in particular.)

We're so fucked that I don't see how it's even remotely rational to take out sticker debt (300k or whatever it is) for "biglaw" when you're going to be begging for money on the streets when you're 90 after you work your shit job and you don't even own a house because you don't have Social Security, you took out too much debt during your life, and your salary doesn't go up because we're outsourcing every fucking job.

So yeah, it's fucking retarded to take out sticker and it's fucking retarded to compare our generation with our parents (and their earning power) since our generation is completely and utterly FUCKED in comparison.