Well thats why I said you wouldn't believe me, but I don't mean exactly 60 years. I just needed to say a number to you meaning in my lifetime. I am 19, so i don't know how long I will live but I think he will be back in my lifetime. And I'm not setting a date. The research I've done is so much that I did not want to write it all here. Most of you would probably not read it all but until i prepare a full expository on it I will just ask did anyone read The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White or perhaps The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey? These two books place a stark contrast to each other and Hal Lindsey was wrong, because he predicted the world would end in the 80s and it didn't. Ellen White however did not state a day or even say in my lifetime. However she shows how events connect and how prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled and soon it is time for the rest to be fulfilled. Of course she uses the Bible as irrefutable and complete and infallible. So if you believe in the Bible this is an interesting book.

Didn't you know?....Jesus DID come back! But He met with an unfortunate accident.....

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Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Well thats why I said you wouldn't believe me, but I don't mean exactly 60 years. I just needed to say a number to you meaning in my lifetime. I am 19, so i don't know how long I will live but I think he will be back in my lifetime. And I'm not setting a date. The research I've done is so much that I did not want to write it all here. Most of you would probably not read it all but until i prepare a full expository on it I will just ask did anyone read The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White or perhaps The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey? These two books place a stark contrast to each other and Hal Lindsey was wrong, because he predicted the world would end in the 80s and it didn't. Ellen White however did not state a day or even say in my lifetime. However she shows how events connect and how prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled and soon it is time for the rest to be fulfilled. Of course she uses the Bible as irrefutable and complete and infallible. So if you believe in the Bible this is an interesting book.

You're right. I don't believe you since you and so many other Christians have made the same false claims repeatedly.

You could be 19 or you could be 45 like I am and your claims are still ludicrous. You did try to set a date, and claim that you “think” that this bogeyman will be “back” within your lifetime. Take responsibility for your claims, as nonsensical as they are.

You’ve claimed you’ve done “research”. I think that is a bogus claim and that you’ve only gotten out your magic decoder ring just like every other Christian, sure that your version of your god and your version of what it “really meant” is the right one. You’re a bit late in citing the Late Great Planet Earth since Lindsey thought the world would end in 1984. Golly, one more lying Christian who got it wrong! and golly, one Christian, Seventh Day Adventist variety, was smart enough not to actually mention a date, mostly because she saw how that bit the asses of her fellow Christians during the Great Disappointment. So her idiot followers can keep applying the same nonsense repeatedly, and ignoring the vast numbers of times that they are wrong. It also looks like she cribbed from Zoroasterianism with her “great controversy”. I do love to see just how Christians can’t agree on much at all, but oh all of them claim that they are the only “true” ones.

Now, Jake, if you are as you say “fully prepared to die”, I’m wondering, what do you plan to do with this life of yours? If you find this world so bad, why aren’t you volunterring to clear land mines, or other necessary but potentially lethal jobs that you could do for another who does love this world and their life?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Well thats why I said you wouldn't believe me, but I don't mean exactly 60 years. I just needed to say a number to you meaning in my lifetime. I am 19, so i don't know how long I will live but I think he will be back in my lifetime. And I'm not setting a date. The research I've done is so much that I did not want to write it all here. Most of you would probably not read it all but until i prepare a full expository on it I will just ask did anyone read The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White or perhaps The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey? These two books place a stark contrast to each other and Hal Lindsey was wrong, because he predicted the world would end in the 80s and it didn't. Ellen White however did not state a day or even say in my lifetime. However she shows how events connect and how prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled and soon it is time for the rest to be fulfilled. Of course she uses the Bible as irrefutable and complete and infallible. So if you believe in the Bible this is an interesting book.

Didn't you know?....Jesus DID come back! But He met with an unfortunate accident.....

God don't like ugly. Ugly statues, that is. And he told ya about those graven idols....Those statue-bearing guys stood around wondering what to do, until one man stands the statue--now headless-- back up, as if to say, "See? Good as new. Carry on. Or not."

I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses and as a already said, I did not say the world WILL END in my lifetime, I said I BELIEVE it will. I think (meaning I have no proof other then the fact that Jesus said when you see all these things know that the time is near). I see alot of stuff and I think it is near. If the world does not end in my lifetime, so be it. I'm fully prepared to die.

Did he not also say to his living disciples during his own generation, "this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled", at least according to the gospels?

Definition of THIS:1 a : being the person, thing, or idea that is present or near in place, time, or thought or that has just been mentioned <this book is mine> <early this morning>b : constituting the immediately following part of the present discoursec : constituting the immediate past or future <friends all these years>d : being one not previously mentioned —used especially in narrative to give a sense of immediacy or vividness <then this guy runs in> <had this urge to go shopping> 2: being the nearer at hand or more immediately under observation or discussion <this car or that one> Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/this

Maybe you are referring to Matthew 16:19 which Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." They did die but they DID see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom just as Jesus said they would. There are two fulfillments of that. The first would be that John in Revelation was there when Jesus said that and he saw in the visions God gave him the Son of Man (Jesus) coming in his kingdom. Second fulfillment is What immediately followed this verse, the transfiguration. And you cannot say that they believed Jesus would come in their day because Paul in his various letters admonishes the church to not look for Christ in their day for it was not going to happen until later. Also one of the Reformers during the reformation said also that it would not happen in his day.

I think perhaps you mean Matthew 16:28? You do realize that this is not the only place where someone is promised to see Jesus "coming in his kingdom"? Apparently the same was promised to the unbeliever, Caiaphas the high priest (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62).

Also, do you realize that, contextually, Matthew 16:28 is referring to an actual return of Christ, not a vision of it. Verse 27: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."How will "they also which pierced him" see him? Last I heard, they are long since dead. I find a resurrection of the "wicked" toward the end of Revelation, only after (not during) the return of the King of Kings and when God sits down on the white throne judgement seat.

And what of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18: 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.If an immediate fulfillment was not expected, how much comfort could this really be expected to bring to anyone?

Anyway, I fail to see how in view of the following any Christian can say when Jesus will return. Apologists and Rapturists can invent bullshit explanations all they want, but God can surely make Himself understood.

1Th:5:1: But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.1Th:5:2: For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.1Th:5:3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2Pe:3:8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.2Pe:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.2Pe:3:10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.2Pe:3:11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Now the first thing you see is that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." is arrant bollocks - meaningless garbage - How many days was Jesus dead? 3 days or three thousand year's worth of days?

The next is that there will be a sign and it will be clear to everyone - in fact, it will be so amazing that the TV and newspapers will be full of it:

Jesus explains that there will be no marriage in Heaven. For obvious reasons there will be no fornication either. Hence it is impossible that anyone will be born in heaven.

Therefore the End of Times can only take place when no pregnant Christian woman dies. This means that for the 9 months prior to the End of Times, there can be no shagging among the Faithful. When that happens, it is the End. I suspect that shortly before Christians stop knocking out Soldiers for Jesus, Hell will freeze over.

Consequently, we can confidently say that Jesus is never coming back (even if he were here in the first place, which is doubtful.)

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Graybeard, you're not taking everything into consideration. It is common knowledge that if you take the average number of syllables in every other verse in the book of Revelation and multiply that figure by 11 (the number of good disciples), subtract 1 (the number of bad disciples), then calculate how many board feet of gopher wood you could buy at C.E. 33 prices from the Home Depot in Nazareth and divide that figure by the number of christians who have been wrong about when he will return, you end up with something close to 17. Which means that he will return in 2029.

Live with it.

(I'll be dead by then, so I know I won't be impregnating any christian women in 2028. But I can't vouch for the rest of you. Be careful out there.)

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

You’re a bit late in citing the Late Great Planet Earth since Lindsey thought the world would end in 1984. Golly, one more lying Christian who got it wrong!

I was citing the research I've done and yes he predicted the world would end in 1984, hence why I said, HE WAS WRONG. That is just the first book I read on Bible prophecy. Oh and he wasn't lying as you claim, I'm sure he earnestly believed he was right and when it happened he was very disappointed. He did not desire to deceive many people and lie. If you discovered the day you thought for sure was when Jesus was going to come back you would share it because it would be a great message. You would not want to keep it to yourself. That is what he did. He made a public apology afterward as well.

Now, Jake, if you are as you say “fully prepared to die”, I’m wondering, what do you plan to do with this life of yours? If you find this world so bad, why aren’t you volunterring to clear land mines, or other necessary but potentially lethal jobs that you could do for another who does love this world and their life?

Just because I'm prepared to die doesn't mean I'm going to waste my life. If someone was a Christian and did that to end their life God would NOT be happy. He doesn't say, since you will go to heaven just go ahead and die. But actually I am going to have a potentially lethal job. I'm going to be a Police Officer. I've wanted to do that since I was a kid. And eventually I want to be a Detective. I simply mean that I'm not scared of death as some people are, but I'm NOT going to waste the life God gave me.

Everyone knows Jesus already came back around 70ad! Christ returned out of literal clouds, and the living Christians with glorified bodies rose into the air to meet him and the previously resurrected saints. Then, they all proceeded to heaven for the wedding feast.

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Everyone knows Jesus already came back around 70ad! Christ returned out of literal clouds, and the living Christians with glorified bodies rose into the air to meet him and the previously resurrected saints. Then, they all proceeded to heaven for the wedding feast.

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Aww maaaaan. They already ate him?

*puts away the A1 sauce*

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"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him. I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however. Humor's always good too.

I was citing the research I've done and yes he predicted the world would end in 1984, hence why I said, HE WAS WRONG. That is just the first book I read on Bible prophecy. Oh and he wasn't lying as you claim, I'm sure he earnestly believed he was right and when it happened he was very disappointed. He did not desire to deceive many people and lie. If you discovered the day you thought for sure was when Jesus was going to come back you would share it because it would be a great message. You would not want to keep it to yourself. That is what he did. He made a public apology afterward as well.

Yep, he was wrong and you are too. So, making things up and spreading them isn’t lying? All of the “earnest belief” in the world doesn’t excuse someone who is willfully ignorant. Hal LindseyWiki has made no apology, only that he was sorry he was wrong and promptly made more predictions with no more validity than the first.

I see you did not bother to respond to my points about Ms. White and her particular nonsense. One more Christian who makes claims about when the “end times are a comin’” but of course with no more validity than the next. Seventh Day Adventists aren’t any more special than the next Christian, Muslim, Jew or Wicca. You all have your nonsense that you are sure is the “only” way. Your prophecies fail constantly and for people who claim that prophecy works, you sure never mention anything when it could do some good.

Christians often claim that they have so many members all over the world, and this should somehow make their religion be considered the only “right” one. But when it comes down to brass tacks, Christians don’t agree on much (when is the “real” Sabbath?) and each group is sure that they’ll be the ones at their god’s right hand.

and I’m still waiting for this “research”. From what I’ve seen, your “research” consists of blindly believing baseless claims by Ms. White and your own magic decoder ring interpretation of the bible.

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Just because I'm prepared to die doesn't mean I'm going to waste my life. If someone was a Christian and did that to end their life God would NOT be happy. He doesn't say, since you will go to heaven just go ahead and die. But actually I am going to have a potentially lethal job. I'm going to be a Police Officer. I've wanted to do that since I was a kid. And eventually I want to be a Detective. I simply mean that I'm not scared of death as some people are, but I'm NOT going to waste the life God gave me.

Ah, so helping other people clear land mines is now “wasting your life”. Good to know. It’s always quite amusing when Christians will use any excuse possible to give themselves reasons why *they* don’t need to do anything. I will grant you that being a police officer can be lethal. My brother is one. I’m wondering, how do you declare that it’s not a waste of life and offensive to your god to take one dangerous position and not another. It seems that like all Christians, you make up things about your god.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:12:44 AM by velkyn »

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

It was quite the feast too! My friend's great uncle's cousin's mother-in-law's step-brother had an ancestor that was visiting Judea at the time. His ancestor saw the rapture, freaked out, and damn near passed out. As the story goes, a man one a flying white horse with a face like the sun told him to fear not and left him with the best ribs in the history of the world and a sauce recipe that has been in my friend's family for centuries that would make you forget all about A1.

Everyone knows Jesus already came back around 70ad! Christ returned out of literal clouds, and the living Christians with glorified bodies rose into the air to meet him and the previously resurrected saints. Then, they all proceeded to heaven for the wedding feast.

Ah, preterists! I used to be one before I realized that the whole thing was a lie and Jesus did not "come with clouds in his kingdom" in 70 AD.

Josephus is, however, a fine example of third century Christians interjecting their own words into the writings of others. Remarkable how so many of the "fulfillments" people cite in Josephus read almost like they were copied straight out of the New Testament!

Example:

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Matthew 24:21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Josephus: "All the calamities which had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world were but small in comparison with those of the Jews" (Jewish Wars, b. i. preface, section 4).

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 05:03:52 PM by GodlessHeathen »

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Ah, preterists! I used to be one before I realized that the whole thing was a lie and Jesus did not "come with clouds in his kingdom" in 70 AD.

I got the impression from reading some of your posts that you either had a background in some form of preterism or had some Church of Christ amillenial skeleton's in an old closet.

For me, preterism was the final stage of my "christian affliction." I went from fundementalist Baptist, to book, chapter, and verse, Church of Christer, to home-church movement preacher guy, to partial preterist, to literalist preterist, until finally all the walls came tumpling down and my christianity suddenly disappeared with the help of a few gentle nudgers. Once someone goes preterist, there ain't no going back to fundementalism. If they continue to be as analytical as most preterists I know are, it is quite likely that eventually they will fall away from theism entirely.

For me, preterism was the final stage of my "christian affliction." I went from fundementalist Baptist, to book, chapter, and verse, Church of Christer, to home-church movement preacher guy, to partial preterist, to literalist preterist, until finally all the walls came tumpling down and my christianity suddenly disappeared with the help of a few gentle nudgers. Once someone goes preterist, there ain't no going back to fundementalism. If they continue to be as analytical as most preterists I know are, it is quite likely that eventually they will fall away from theism entirely.

Probably why Apostolics consider the doctrine to be so dangerous. Actually preterism was not what ultimately led me into unbelief. It was all of the plagiarism from older mythologies that Christianity has committed. Nearly every major tenet of Christianity (virgin birth, sacrificial death, resurrection, ascension into heaven, etc.) has a parallel somewhere in an older mythology in one of the surrounding nations.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Your prophecies fail constantly and for people who claim that prophecy works, you sure never mention anything when it could do some good.

Well actually the only prophecies that I acknowledge are those made by the Bible, which of the ones that already happened ALL OF THEM CAME TRUE. All the prophecies about Jesus' first coming all came true and the prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem came true as well. Of course you will probably just say thats because the Bible was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, but it wasn't. And you say you want our prophecies to do good. How about all the times Jesus told his followers to go and help the needy and all that. Also our prophecies are to inform people how to get to Heaven, which is a GOOD place, so they prophecies are for GOOD.

Christians often claim that they have so many members all over the world, and this should somehow make their religion be considered the only “right” one.

I don't agree with that. Jesus says that wide is the gate that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life. I think that the true christians are not in any one religion, granted they have to have the basic necessities of salvation by the believe in Jesus and the forsaking of sins. But I believe many will be saved, Catholics, Protestants, however those of false religions such as wicca, Mormonism, and other cults will not be saved, unless they believed what I said earlier but if they did they would not belong to these false religions. No one denomination is right and there are many corrupt leaders in power. It is all about what the Bible says!

Ah, so helping other people clear land mines is now “wasting your life”. Good to know. It’s always quite amusing when Christians will use any excuse possible to give themselves reasons why *they* don’t need to do anything. I will grant you that being a police officer can be lethal. My brother is one. I’m wondering, how do you declare that it’s not a waste of life and offensive to your god to take one dangerous position and not another. It seems that like all Christians, you make up things about your god.

I only said clearing land mines was wasting my life because you implied that if I wanted to die i should do that. Obviously whoever does that is a brave soul who deserves honor and respect. And I haven't used reasons why I dont need to do anything. And I would appreciate it if you would stop called me "Christian" and start calling me "Jake" since that is my name. I am an individual and yes I am a Christian but there are so many Christians who have wondered off the right path that it makes the term Christian imply I am one of those individuals. I don't make things up about my God. If I wanted to clear landmines God would be okay with that since I'm doing it for the good of others, same for police officer, I don't decide whats offensive to him, he does thats why i follow him. If i followed myself i'd be an ethical egoist. And again i state that I DO NOT make things up about God, if he says it that he says it, i do not support any putting of words in God's mouth.

Have you ever bothered to look at each one of these "fulfilled" Jesus-prophecies in context? There are not 300 plus fulfilled "prophecies" as some apologists like to claim. They are taken out of context and forced into the story-line of the gospels. I will provide one example here, but I recommend the book, The Failure of Bible Prophecy, by Chris Sandoval, for a comprehensive treatment of them.

Matthew 2:15 unequivocally states: "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

This is a direct quote from Hosea 11:1: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

The first problem here is evident. The text applies to Israel! Indeed it is not even a prediction. Instead it refers to Israel's past exodus from slavery in Egypt!

Verse 2 goes on to read: "As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images." Unless one wishes to concede that Jesus was an idolator, this can only be applied to Old Testament Israel!

There are many other such examples of Old Testament texts being wrenched from their contexts and forced to fit the Jesus story-line.

and the prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem came true as well. Of course you will probably just say thats because the Bible was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, but it wasn't.

The evidence that these were written after the fact is the way that they read just like a history book and then, at a specific point, begin to make outlandish predictions that never happened. Take Matthew 24. Verses 1-24 make "predictions" that reasonably match first century history. Verses 25-28 digress a bit. Then verse 29 makes the following very bold prediction:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that these things were to take place "immediately after the tribulation of those days." Are we expected to believe that all the tribes of the earth saw a giant "sign" of Jesus in the sky and saw Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and no single historian bothered to record it? Even if they misinterpreted it, you'd think they would have noticed it! But you do not hear a word about it in any historian's writings of the time!

A true prophecy, we would expect to be fulfilled in its entirety. But the above is just what what we would expect of someone who was writing down events after the fact, passing them off as prophecy, and then adding a little bit of "yet-to-be-fulfilled" flare at the end.

And you say you want our prophecies to do good. How about all the times Jesus told his followers to go and help the needy and all that. Also our prophecies are to inform people how to get to Heaven, which is a GOOD place, so they prophecies are for GOOD.

That's assuming "Heaven" even exists. The fact that the above "prophecies" have been found defective casts serious doubt on the other "prophecies" about Heaven.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 03:22:52 AM by GodlessHeathen »

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

But actually I am going to have a potentially lethal job. I'm going to be a Police Officer. I've wanted to do that since I was a kid. And eventually I want to be a Detective.

You realise this means you will have to undertake an unbiased examination of a crime that you didn't witness and determine the events for yourself after the fact by examining the evidence (whilst utilising advanced scientific techniques).

But actually I am going to have a potentially lethal job. I'm going to be a Police Officer. I've wanted to do that since I was a kid. And eventually I want to be a Detective.

You realise this means you will have to undertake an unbiased examination of a crime that you didn't witness and determine the events for yourself after the fact by examining the evidence (whilst utilising advanced scientific techniques).

PoM

As long as he leaves all that analysis and scientific method at work and doesn't think about it on Sundays, he'll be fine. You can't expect people to apply the same concepts to religion as they do in all the other aspects of their lives. God is different. Just is. Don't confuse me with facts.

As we know, people are really good at compartmentalizing. That's why Christians don't volunteer for risky jobs to get to heaven faster--see, god does not want them to do that. Those elderly engineers in Japan who went into the nuclear plants after the tsunami to allow the younger engineers to be spared? They must have been fools, according to Christians. Actually, they were atheists, being rational. And being altruistic, putting the needs of others above themselves. No god necessary.

Have you ever bothered to look at each one of these "fulfilled" Jesus-prophecies in context?

You know this has happened a dozen times and its getting old. Everytime I say something about the Bible, everyone responds with "have you even looked at it". No I haven't looked at it, im just talking about something I don't even know like an idiot would. OF COURSE I HAVE! Not like it matters to you. Even if i was going to explain it so good that it would make sense to any rational person you would say, no your just adding words or making things up. For example:Matthew 3:3 and Isaiah 40:3. And everything you say is taken out of context is because it is not taken out of context that is how prophecy works. Jews wrote the Bible and they way Jews write is that they say things and then they throw something in unrelated, then they go back. This is evident even in Jewish people and other Jewish writings. They don't do things like Enlish writers do. And that does not even need to be disputed, English is obviously different then Jewish.

The evidence that these were written after the fact is the way that they read just like a history book and then, at a specific point, begin to make outlandish predictions that never happened. Take Matthew 24. Verses 1-24 make "predictions" that reasonably match first century history. Verses 25-28 digress a bit. Then verse 29 makes the following very bold prediction:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that these things were to take place "immediately after the tribulation of those days." Are we expected to believe that all the tribes of the earth saw a giant "sign" of Jesus in the sky and saw Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and no single historian bothered to record it? Even if they misinterpreted it, you'd think they would have noticed it! But you do not hear a word about it in any historian's writings of the time!

A true prophecy, we would expect to be fulfilled in its entirety. But the above is just what what we would expect of someone who was writing down events after the fact, passing them off as prophecy, and then adding a little bit of "yet-to-be-fulfilled" flare at the end.

Immediately you assume to be right after what happens, how much after, maybe 1 hour, 1 day. Well first of all God does not work on the same time scale as you or I immediately to him is when this stuff happened. Those prophecies were referring to what would happen many years (for us) after the destruction of Jerusalem. The sun and moon were darkened on May 19, 1780 in what is known as New England's Dark Day. I'll let you look that up. During the middle of the day and continuing to the middle of the next day it was so dark they had to use candles. And it was not an eclipse, some say it was a wild fire, I don't know if that true, maybe God used that fire to do that, or maybe since it was so dark and I hardly see how any smoke from a fire could cover so far a range and for so long and make it so dark. Does seem possible, not to mention nothing like that has ever happened before or yet.

As you can see it all follows what was said but you cant look at it thinking it is going to happen immediately God doesn't work like that and he clearly states he does work like that in other parts of the Bible

Oh and I find it interesting that you know what it takes to have a "true prophecy" since your a theologian. The Bible tells how to tell true prophecy from false, and this is under the category of true.

Well actually the only prophecies that I acknowledge are those made by the Bible, which of the ones that already happened ALL OF THEM CAME TRUE. All the prophecies about Jesus' first coming all came true and the prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem came true as well. Of course you will probably just say thats because the Bible was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, but it wasn't. And you say you want our prophecies to do good. How about all the times Jesus told his followers to go and help the needy and all that. Also our prophecies are to inform people how to get to Heaven, which is a GOOD place, so they prophecies are for GOOD.

Always love to see someone resort to caps. No prophecies have come true from your bible. No matter how much you want to stomp your feet and pout. Like so many Christians, you pick and choose what you want from the Jewish myths to make your supposed messiah. And you are ignorant enough to think that no one notices. The jewish messiah was to rebuilt the temple, was to be respected by all world leaders, etc, etc. All which your supposed messiah, Jesus Christ, fails. It’s so bad that Christians have had to make up a “Second Coming” to excuse how badly the “prophecies” don’t match.

The bible was written piecemeal with people around the 4th century finally decideing what books should be included, and rejecting others, all with the usual magic decoder rings that all theists have. Show me concrete evidence that the nonsense in your book wasn’t written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I have no reason to accept your baseless assertions.

When I say I want prophecies to do good, I want them to save lives, not make some imaginary promise that there will be some magical afterlife. Many other religions do the same thing and there’s no way to know if their promises come true. So your religions claims about your heaven are just as nonsensical as those other religions. Or are you willing to agree that the Muslim’s paradise with the 72 virgins, the Hindu concept of reincarnation, etc are all just as valid as your religion’s claims? I’m guessing not, but I’ll wait for your answer. I do like how you just hand wave away any good that comes from helping the needy.

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I don't agree with that. Jesus says that wide is the gate that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life. I think that the true christians are not in any one religion, granted they have to have the basic necessities of salvation by the believe in Jesus and the forsaking of sins. But I believe many will be saved, Catholics, Protestants, however those of false religions such as wicca, Mormonism, and other cults will not be saved, unless they believed what I said earlier but if they did they would not belong to these false religions. No one denomination is right and there are many corrupt leaders in power. It is all about what the Bible says!

That’s good that you don’t agree with Christians claiming that quanitity equals quantity, but as always you are one Christian who is sure that those “other Christians” are wrong, and again have no evidence to show that your nonsense is any more valid than theirs. Oh and I do love how you claim that the LDS, Wicca are “false religions”. Please do show me how they are false and yours is true. And what does the bible say, jakec47? Does it say that you should give up all you have to follow Jesus, depending on God to given you anything you’ll need? Does it say that Christians should all live communally, sharing all they have? Does it say that homosexual deserve death? Or that women are to be silent and not teach any male anything, that women are only “saved” in childbirth? Does it say that God has chosen who he will save and that unless one is allowed by God, one can *never* be saved? You see, there are Christian sects who all say such thing and who all claim that the bible and the “holy spirit” has told them what their god “really” meant. And all of them have no better evidence than the next that they are the “right” ones. You think that the Seventh Day Adventist way is the only “right” way, that their prophecies are “true”, but I have no reason to think you are any more authentic than the Mormons, or the Baptists or the Roman Catholics.

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I only said clearing land mines was wasting my life because you implied that if I wanted to die i should do that. Obviously whoever does that is a brave soul who deserves honor and respect. And I haven't used reasons why I dont need to do anything. And I would appreciate it if you would stop called me "Christian" and start calling me "Jake" since that is my name. I am an individual and yes I am a Christian but there are so many Christians who have wondered off the right path that it makes the term Christian imply I am one of those individuals. I don't make things up about my God. If I wanted to clear landmines God would be okay with that since I'm doing it for the good of others, same for police officer, I don't decide whats offensive to him, he does thats why i follow him. If i followed myself i'd be an ethical egoist. And again i state that I DO NOT make things up about God, if he says it that he says it, i do not support any putting of words in God's mouth.

Are you not a Christian, Jakec47? So, I call you that. I am sorry if your actions and that of your fellow Christians makes it an unpleasant thing to be called. YOU can calle me "geologist" if you want, since I'm that too. You are an individual. Yes, you are, an individual who repeats the same old theistic nonsense with nothing to support his claims. I asked you how you explained accepting one dangerous job over another to your god. In either, taking such job could be seen to be wanting to die, but it’s an awful lot more convenient for you to be a police officer in the US than doing hard work in a third world country.

It’s typical to see you, a Christian, be so sure that any Christian who doesn’t agree with you is not on the “right path”, again a repetition that you think you do somehow have the “right” path. You think your version of your god is the “right” one and without any evidence, you have indeed made things up about it. It’s not suprising at all that you declare that your god would be okay with if *you* decided to clear land mines. Your god always agrees with you doesn’t he? You want to be a police officer so god is “good” with that.

Now let’s look at what you claim fulfills prophecy:

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Immediately you assume to be right after what happens, how much after, maybe 1 hour, 1 day. Well first of all God does not work on the same time scale as you or I immediately to him is when this stuff happened. Those prophecies were referring to what would happen many years (for us) after the destruction of Jerusalem. The sun and moon were darkened on May 19, 1780 in what is known as New England's Dark Day. I'll let you look that up. During the middle of the day and continuing to the middle of the next day it was so dark they had to use candles. And it was not an eclipse, some say it was a wild fire, I don't know if that true, maybe God used that fire to do that, or maybe since it was so dark and I hardly see how any smoke from a fire could cover so far a range and for so long and make it so dark. Does seem possible, not to mention nothing like that has ever happened before or yet.

Ah, the usual attempts by a Christian to randomly pick events that might be kind of similar to their myths. Who cares about when they happen! And the usual attempts to claim that your god is on some magical time table, so you can pick and choose what time period “really” equals a day. Nice making up something about your god right here, Jakec47. It also makes you seem that you have no idea what the word “immediately” means, and like so many desperate Christians want to play pretend that no interpreter has ever gotten your bible “right’.

Wow, from the bible which has all of these things happening at once, you decide that the events can be sperated by 50 years! Why not say that this, Late Heavy BombardmentWiki was the “stars” falling? The fact is that your bible was written by people who didn’t know what meteors were and who really thought “stars” were falling. Heck, my great grandmother thought the world was going to end because she saw auroras, the entire sky lit a blood red. Didn’t end though. Saying something hasn’t happened the same since is no reason to think it can’t. What happens if it does happen again even better this time, Jakec47? Where will your religion be?

You repeatedly claim that “God doesn’t work like that”. That’s just you again making claims about your god so you can excuse it. Christians often do that, declare that their god doesn’t do something when it’s inconvenient.

The bible says that one can tell true prophecy if it comes true. My how convenient, a book that says that it’s true and that’s all of the evidence we have that it is true. That’s called circular reasoning, Jakec47, and if you think you have any chance at all at becoming a police detective, you need to know how to think and not use logical fallacies like this. I know that most schools don’t teach this stuff and they should. To get familiar with many logical fallacies, including many common ones that Christians use, I would suggest you really study this website: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Everyone knows Jesus already came back around 70ad! Christ returned out of literal clouds, and the living Christians with glorified bodies rose into the air to meet him and the previously resurrected saints. Then, they all proceeded to heaven for the wedding feast.

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

ergot (ûrgt)A fungus (Claviceps purpurea) that infects rye as well as other cereal grasses fed to livestock. Ergot forms sclerotia (masses of hyphae) that replace individual seeds in the spike of the infected plant and contain a complex mixture of alkaloids, several of which are medicinally important. Ergot is the basic source of ergotamine and lysergic acid. Ingestion of infected rye produces convulsions, hallucinations, and severe vasoconstriction that can lead to gangrene. Ergot poisoning may have been responsible for outbreaks of mass hysteria and reports of demonic visions in medieval Europe.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

You know this has happened a dozen times and its getting old. Everytime I say something about the Bible, everyone responds with "have you even looked at it". No I haven't looked at it, im just talking about something I don't even know like an idiot would. OF COURSE I HAVE!

Really? Sounds to me like you've studied your current events more than you've studied your Bible.

Not like it matters to you. Even if i was going to explain it so good that it would make sense to any rational person you would say, no your just adding words or making things up. For example:Matthew 3:3 and Isaiah 40:3. And everything you say is taken out of context is because it is not taken out of context that is how prophecy works. Jews wrote the Bible and they way Jews write is that they say things and then they throw something in unrelated, then they go back. This is evident even in Jewish people and other Jewish writings. They don't do things like Enlish writers do. And that does not even need to be disputed, English is obviously different then Jewish.

Really? How convenient for them... and later for Christians. It only "looks" like it was taken out of context; really the context "shifted" mid-thought. Do you have any idea how ludicrous that sounds??

I don't see any "throwing in something unrelated" in Isaiah 40:3, except in your interpretation of it. I see a continuous flow of thought from start to finish. The whole flow of thought is related to judgment against God's enemies and vengeance and rewards for those who have served him.

Show me an example in the Old Testament where one writer quotes a prophecy of another writer "piece-meal" like the New Testament writers do and then claims the current events to be fulfillments, and maybe I'll concede that there is some credibility to your "context-shifting" argument. Otherwise, I see no reason to accept it as anything more than an excuse.

Immediately you assume to be right after what happens, how much after, maybe 1 hour, 1 day. Well first of all God does not work on the same time scale as you or I immediately to him is when this stuff happened. Those prophecies were referring to what would happen many years (for us) after the destruction of Jerusalem. The sun and moon were darkened on May 19, 1780 in what is known as New England's Dark Day. I'll let you look that up. During the middle of the day and continuing to the middle of the next day it was so dark they had to use candles. And it was not an eclipse, some say it was a wild fire, I don't know if that true, maybe God used that fire to do that, or maybe since it was so dark and I hardly see how any smoke from a fire could cover so far a range and for so long and make it so dark. Does seem possible, not to mention nothing like that has ever happened before or yet.

As you can see it all follows what was said but you cant look at it thinking it is going to happen immediately God doesn't work like that and he clearly states he does work like that in other parts of the Bible

So let's see how the word "immediately" is used in the rest of the New Testament. Because the oldest New Testament texts we have are in Greek, I will use Greek examples instead of English:

Each one of the above referenced texts conveys the sense of "soon," most of them "instantly" - not 2,000 years in the future. If you believe that the Bible is the "inspired Word of God", then the text itself shows that He does not use the word, "immediately", in the way that you are proposing.

Now, of course, your next rebuttal will likely be, "prophecy is different from the other texts." I challenge you to show how it is different with anything other than your stretched interpretation that: Jesus did not come back in the first century; therefore it must be referring to some event 2,000 years in the future. What does a natural reading of the text convey? How would the original readers/hearers interpret it? Obviously, based on how the word is used in other texts, its plain, natural meaning was simply, "immediately" - and never "immediately" on some weird, stretched out time table that only God understands. You're doing violence to the very words of the very book that you claim to love and revere.

Oh and I find it interesting that you know what it takes to have a "true prophecy" since your a theologian. The Bible tells how to tell true prophecy from false, and this is under the category of true.

But arguments from authority aside, the way the Bible tells how to tell true prophecy is: When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:22). From where I'm sitting, part of that prophecy did not come to pass. Now, if we add to that condition that one might have to wait around for 2,000 years to see whether or not a full prophecy actually comes to pass, how does that not render that bit of advise in Deut. 18:22 totally meaningless? How would anyone ever be able to tell a false prophet from a true one?

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15 NIV) If the Bible is to be useful and understood, it needs to be correctly handled.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV)None who have not the Spirit of God abiding in them will be able to understand or even accept the things written in the Bible. It matters not that you were a minister because if you are no longer a Christian then you do not have the Spirit of God and you probably never did. If you had you would have known the truth and not fallen away. You sound like you have a great knowledge, if only you would accept God and Jesus and then you would understand.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15 NIV) If the Bible is to be useful and understood, it needs to be correctly handled.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV)None who have not the Spirit of God abiding in them will be able to understand or even accept the things written in the Bible. It matters not that you were a minister because if you are no longer a Christian then you do not have the Spirit of God and you probably never did. If you had you would have known the truth and not fallen away. You sound like you have a great knowledge, if only you would accept God and Jesus and then you would understand.

Put in the "spirit of common sense" and you will truly understand the risible nature of your statement. In case you didnt understand the general feeling, most atheists dont really subscribe to the "if only you would accept God and Jesus and then you would understand" concept.

We are sceptical about the veracity of that particular slave owners guide and you are simply quoting hymns in the same book.

My observation of standard devolution of a theist in this forum: I can make them understand--> Here is the proof --> The book is the proof --> You will need to accept to understand --> You will never understand --> I am being victimized here --> Troglodytes --> I am leaving