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There are obviously many things about which to be excited in this project, but talk about Atlanta as the capital of suburban sprawl...this just adds to all the sprawl-related challenges the area faces. It is pretty much a textbook example of how thoughtful urban planners would not build a city.

The Atlanta metro has massive issues with sprawl, congestion and lack of transportation infrastructure. This build out isn't really part of that problem, excepting what additional congestions the intersection of I285 and I75, where it is going to be located, will get on game days. The site itself is about 10 miles from dead center downtown Atlanta. That's about the distance from the World Trade Center to the Bronx Zoo.

The Atlanta metro has massive issues with sprawl, congestion and lack of transportation infrastructure. This build out isn't really part of that problem, excepting what additional congestions the intersection of I285 and I75, where it is going to be located, will get on game days. The site itself is about 10 miles from dead center downtown Atlanta. That's about the distance from the World Trade Center to the Bronx Zoo.

And if Atlanta had the population of New York, your analogy would hold. But it doesn't, and it doesn't.

More people in Atlanta own 2+ cars than own 1+ in NY. Citation. And that's comparing Atlanta proper, in the suburbs where the vast majority of the population is, car ownership is more like 98%. And everyone on the way to the new stadium at game time will be competing with standard, awful, rush-hour traffic. Getting to a game on a drizzly Friday night will require leaving some time on Thursday.

Just eyeballing it based on Google Earth, I'd say it looks like home plate will be facing 20ish degrees East of South. I hadn't really looked at the land parcel they were talking about before, and it's even worse than I realized. If they aren't building ramps directly on/off the interstates, and maybe Cobb Pkwy as well, that's going to a living hell to get to, and even with those I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the vicinity on game days.

And if Atlanta had the population of New York, your analogy would hold. But it doesn't, and it doesn't.

I'm pretty comfortable with my knowledge of the City of Atlanta and what is and is not sprawl in the metro area. The new stadium is a mere 10 miles from "Downtown Atlanta," a neighborhood which is itself 3-5 miles south of the actual center of the city itself (that would be the Georgia Tech/Midtown neighborhoods between 10th and 14th streets, on the west and east side of the Downtown Connector, respectively. Atlanta metro is a sprawling mess with a horrific transportation infrastructure, but the new stadium is simply not located far from the city proper. The location is terrible for top end Perimeter traffic patterns during rush hour, and politically it crosses from Fulton County over into Cobb County by about 1000 meters, which is a bigger deal for local psyches than it is geographically. But it is simply not located in the sprawl. If it were in Alpharetta or Roswell, or out on the northern side of Marietta closer to Acworth, or up in Gwinnett near Duluth or Sugar Hill, or up 75 near Kennesaw, then the sprawl talking point would be valid. Located at Cobb Galleria a few hundred meters on the north side of the Perimeter is not sprawl.

Criticize the traffic on the top end. Criticize the failure of Cobb to engage in mass transit for old racist reasons. Criticize the good old boy network that leeched funding out of Cobb(*) tax coffers to build a new stadium that isn't necessary. But don't say its out in the sprawl. It's not, and if you think it is, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

(*)honestly, no one but Cobb residents should feel the slightest bit of pity that Cobb is finally paying for a metro area perk for a change

I don't know if there is a definitive answer to the question of whether the new stadium location is "in the sprawl," but if I was forced to choose I'd probably say that it is. I see two obvious distinctions between the Downtown/New Stadium and WTC/Bronx Zoo situations. First, between the two New York locations you have ten miles containing millions of densely packed urban blocks. Between the two Atlanta locations, you have about three miles of (somewhat) densely packed urban blocks followed by seven miles of suburban density (meaning big parking lots, subdivisions with big houses on big lots, etc.) Second, travelling between the two New York locations means riding one of the world's biggest subway systems, or taking a cab or an Uber on one of a few different N-S driving options, while travelling between the two Atlanta locations means taking your personal car up I-75, period.

As a long-time Atlanta resident, I do agree that the Cobb County taxpayers footing the bill for the stadium is pretty nice. My hurt feelings at having baseball abandon the city are about 90% offset by amusement at the anti-tax, anti-government Cobb County folks getting soaked for nearly $400 million by Liberty Media.

From the pictures, it doesn't look like anything particularly special. I fear that the stupid reaction of the unimaginative media and populace to the Marlins' new facility will make new stadium development boring and conservative for a while. It probably won't matter much, though, since there won't be many new stadiums in the next few decades, and the very next one, the one in Oakland or Freemont or San Jose or wherever it will be, will probably be really cheap, which might make it interesting by itself.

For those who want to stay more than a day, the community will offer more than 500 residences

This may be a stupid question, but why would anyone ever want to LIVE that close to a stadium? 80 days a year having 40,000 random strangers, many of them inebriated and half the time angry, milling around does not sound like a fun living environment to me.

From the pictures, it doesn't look like anything particularly special. I fear that the stupid reaction of the unimaginative media and populace to the Marlins' new facility will make new stadium development boring and conservative for a while.

I agree. Say what you will about Loria etc, but the stadium in Miami is interesting.

One thing I find interesting is that two of the first three images in the link are of the build-up around the stadium and not the stadium itself. From what I understand, the failure to develop anything of consequence around Turner Field was a huge concern for the Braves, and clearly they're banking on dramatically changing that in Cobb.

Of course, such plans have died unceremonious deaths many times in the past.

This may be a stupid question, but why would anyone ever want to LIVE that close to a stadium? 80 days a year having 40,000 random strangers, many of them inebriated and half the time angry, milling around does not sound like a fun living environment to me.

I'd be curious what types of residences. If they are apartments that would probably be a pretty cool place to be a single, 20something. When I was 25 I would have LOVED to have been able to afford to live down the street from Fenway.

Most of the on site parking (6000 spaces) is underground. The additional parking that will be leveraged on game days exists off site, in various Cobb County owned facilities such as Cobb Galleria Mall, and private lots up and down Cobb Parkway.

Which is why it's kind of a pity that they're spending so much money to build an unnecessary stadium, rather than on attempts to address those issues.

Cobb County was never going to spend money to address the transportation issues. Having them take the stadium costs frees up COA and Fulton to invest in other ways. The primary proposal for the Turner Field site, once the Braves exit to Cobb, is as a southern campus with football and baseball stadiums for Georgia State, in addition to other campus buildings.

This may be a stupid question, but why would anyone ever want to LIVE that close to a stadium? 80 days a year having 40,000 random strangers, many of them inebriated and half the time angry, milling around does not sound like a fun living environment to me.

The development is for an entire live and play community, on the model of Atlantic Station. Instead of having the empty space behind the parking structures where Atlantic Station hosts Cirque de Soleil and the Shaky Knees Music Festival, the Braves are going to build a baseball stadium. The residences will be apartments and 1-2 bedroom condos, above the storefronts of the development at street level. Again, like Atlantic Station.

One thing I find interesting is that two of the first three images in the link are of the build-up around the stadium and not the stadium itself. From what I understand, the failure to develop anything of consequence around Turner Field was a huge concern for the Braves, and clearly they're banking on dramatically changing that in Cobb.

This is the fundamental reason for the move. The parking lots and "store fronts" in Summerhill - the neighborhood where Turner Field exists - are owned by a slumlord named John Elder. He basically wants a king's ransom to sell the properties he gobbled up for pennies on the dollar, and refuses to invest because he's raking in millions off of the "community give back" program that requires the Braves to split parking receipts with "local residents." (John Elder doesn't live anywhere near Summerhill or Mechanicsville.) The Braves have been trying to find a solution to the John Elder problem for years. The stadiums have been in that neighborhood for 60 years, and absolutely no development has happened in that half century. Every attempt has failed, mostly because of John Elder.

The key difference in Cobb is that the Braves and Liberty media OWN THE ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD. They're not reliant on other developers to come in and build businesses and store fronts around their stadium. They're building an entire neighborhood - on the model of the most successful "live and play" community build in the history of modern Atlanta, Atlantic Station - which features their baseball stadium 80 days per year. The rest of the year, they will be making profit from rents and parking for the businesses and housing in that community. The Braves, if I've read the details correctly, are choosing to cease being a tenant and start being the landlord. I don't think there's ever been an attempt like this by a baseball franchise to basically *be the developer* for the entire neighborhood. The aesthetics of the new ball park might not be cutting edge, but the vision they're showing with regard to owning the surrounding area and generating 360-day income off of it is.

Can I revive #1's question about the air conditioning? Are they talking AC in enclosed areas like shops and bars, or is there some sort of open-air cooler effect envisioned? (I assume from the drawing there's no dome, retractable or otherwise.)

The Ted faces mostly due north, so I don't really see what a mostly due south configuration would change. You're going to get high sun fields for day games, regardless, and barring a true westerly facing configuration you're not going to get much more sunset glare from this orientation than you do from Turner. The point of turning it around would be to continue to have the city skyline visible over the OF seats.

I don't think there's ever been an attempt like this by a baseball franchise to basically *be the developer* for the entire neighborhood.

Thus extending the mallpark outside the four walls of the structure in which baseball is played.

Air conditioning in an outdoor stadium in Atlanta. More suburban sprawl. So are we to take it that Atlantans will be paying for the absurdly wasteful, earth-warming, Antarctica and Greenland ice-melting carbon emissions this selfish product will generate? How exactly will they do that?

Thus extending the mallpark outside the four walls of the structure in which baseball is played.

That is precisely the plan, in fact.

Air conditioning in an outdoor stadium in Atlanta.

Yes.

More suburban sprawl.

No.

So are we to take it that Atlantans will be paying for the absurdly wasteful, earth-warming, Antarctica and Greenland ice-melting carbon emissions this selfish product will generate? How exactly will they do that?

On the wings of the same free market fairy angels that Cobb types pray to all the time, I would assume.

Criticize the traffic on the top end. Criticize the failure of Cobb to engage in mass transit for old racist reasons. Criticize the good old boy network that leeched funding out of Cobb(*) tax coffers to build a new stadium that isn't necessary. But don't say its out in the sprawl. It's not, and if you think it is, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

How is this not contributing to urban sprawl? If one defines urban sprawl as "the expansion of human populations away from central urban areas into previously remote and rural areas, particularly resulting in low-density communities reliant upon heavy automobile usage" (A Wikipedia definition, seems reasonable), then how is this not feeding sprawl?

With the exception of the people who rent units in the development itself, everybody else is going to have get in their car to attend a ballgame. And my guess is that most of those people who rent units will have to get in their car to get to work every day...meaning they will be driving home as the traffic for night games is beginning to pick up...at around the same time as the back end of some of the worst commuter-time traffic in America.

When I go to a game at Fenway Park (I live in coastal New Hampshire), I drive a little under an hour to a big parking garage pretty far away from downtown Boston, and then I take the "T" (the subway) into the city for 15-20 minutes, and walk the last 10 minutes to Fenway. It costs me $5 to park for the day at the garage, and a couple of bucks for the subway ride. This is the opposite of what this project will do. Modern urban planners encourage increased density in traditional downtowns, not this sort of development...because it leads to additional use of cars, and additional sprawl.

How is this not contributing to urban sprawl? If one defines urban sprawl as "the expansion of human populations away from central urban areas into previously remote and rural areas, particularly resulting in low-density communities reliant upon heavy automobile usage" (A Wikipedia definition, seems reasonable), then how is this not feeding sprawl?

Because the intersection of 285 and 75 and Cobb Galleria is neither an expansion of metro Atlanta, exterior to any reasonably defined central urban area, previously remote or rural. This actually increases the density and urbanity of that neighborhood more than it is currently built. The 10 miles that separate City of Atlanta from Marietta is no more "sprawl" than the 10 miles that separate Brooklyn from the Bronx is "sprawl." Atlanta has plenty of sprawl. Cobb Galleria ain't it.

With the exception of the people who rent units in the development itself, everybody else is going to have get in their car to attend a ballgame.

This is in no way different from the status quo ante. The percentage of Braves fans who take MARTA to games is in the single digits already. Atlanta is a post-War, southern metro area that was developed after the advent of the car as the primary means of American movement. It is not a pre-War city built on the Euro models with densely packed neighborhoods and extensive mass transit options. The building of a new baseball stadium complex at Cobb Galleria neither adds to nor subtracts from that basic truth of the world.

When I go to a game at Fenway Park (I live in coastal New Hampshire), I drive a little under an hour to a big parking garage pretty far away from downtown Boston, and then I take the "T" (the subway) into the city for 15-20 minutes, and walk the last 10 minutes to Fenway.

Pre-War American cities built on the European models, prior to the advent of cars, are different than post-War cities built after the advent of cars. Atlanta is not Boston. Many of us in Atlanta are working very hard to build out a more walkable and transit oriented city. We are making progress. We do not own the city yet. The Braves' new stadium will do nothing to change the status quo for the better or worse.

The 10 miles that separate City of Atlanta from Marietta is no more "sprawl" than the 10 miles that separate Brooklyn from the Bronx is "sprawl."

Maybe you overlooked my #14, or maybe it was just too dumb to engage with, but I'd be curious to hear your response to it:

I see two obvious distinctions between the Downtown/New Stadium and WTC/Bronx Zoo situations. First, between the two New York locations you have ten miles containing millions of people in densely packed urban blocks. Between the two Atlanta locations, you have about three miles of (somewhat) densely packed urban blocks followed by seven miles of suburban density (meaning big parking lots, subdivisions with big houses on big lots, etc.) Second, travelling between the two New York locations means riding one of the world's biggest subway systems, or taking a cab or an Uber on one of a few different N-S driving options, while travelling between the two Atlanta locations means taking your personal car up I-75, period.

As a long-time Atlanta resident, I do agree that the Cobb County taxpayers footing the bill for the stadium is pretty nice. My hurt feelings at having baseball abandon the city are about 90% offset by amusement at the anti-tax, anti-government Cobb County folks getting soaked for nearly $400 million by Liberty Media.

I see two obvious distinctions between the Downtown/New Stadium and WTC/Bronx Zoo situations. First, between the two New York locations you have ten miles containing millions of people in densely packed urban blocks. Between the two Atlanta locations, you have about three miles of (somewhat) densely packed urban blocks followed by seven miles of suburban density (meaning big parking lots, subdivisions with big houses on big lots, etc.) Second, travelling between the two New York locations means riding one of the world's biggest subway systems, or taking a cab or an Uber on one of a few different N-S driving options, while travelling between the two Atlanta locations means taking your personal car up I-75, period.

I acknowledge your points, but I don't think that supports the notion that the new stadium in Cobb "contributes to sprawl." Atlanta is not as densely packed as NYC. (Nowhere this side of London, Tokyo or the Chinese megacities are.) Atlanta is built on the assumptions of post-war car culture and lacks a world class mass transit system. These are facts. But they're not going to be less true if you build the stadium in Midtown or East Atlanta. They're not going to be less true of you build the stadium in Decatur or Buckhead. They are simply the facts of the world. Atlanta is not as densely built as New York. MARTA isn't a particularly good or popular transit system.

But the density of the intervening miles doesn't make the location more or less "sprawl" than NYC. Manhattan to the Bronx is 10 miles of urban sprawl that is massively, densely developed. Downtown to Cobb Galleria is 10 miles of urban sprawl that is less densely developed than Manhattan. But it's not suburban. Once you get north of Galleria, into East Cobb (where they would never build due to rich NIMBYism), or once you get north of Marietta, yes, then you're talking about sprawl. That would be like building a New York stadium in the Meadowlands or something. But Galleria just ain't sprawl by any rational measure than I can think of. The urban "center" of Atlanta is, IMHO, Midtown/GT. 10th to 17th street or so. Downtown is actually on the southern edge of "the city", after which you get into pseudo-suburban, pseudo-urban neighborhoods like Summerhill and Mechanicsville, bleeding into more true suburban locations like East Point. That is exactly where TF is located, only those neighborhoods are poor and farther away from the Braves season ticket holder base, whereas Cobb Galleria is less poor and more central to that ticket base. Instead of driving through the city to The Ted, they'll drive to the top end now.

For it to "contribute to the sprawl" I think it would have to be built out in Duluth or Roswell or something. The AAA stadium in Gwinnett contributes to the sprawl. Moving from the southside of the city to the northside of the city doesn't.

Ok, I get what you're saying Rickey, and I don't totally disagree. Certainly the Galleria area is more urban than East Cobb, or Alpharetta, or what have you. I would also admit that MARTA is so poorly funded, so poorly operated, and so poorly located in relation to Turner Field that the new stadium location isn't much less transit-accessible than the current location is. But I would argue that MARTA and its access to Turner Field could've/should've been improved, while the new location forecloses any possibility of people getting to a Braves game other than in their personal cars and on 75 or 285 forever more. Maybe you believe that such improvement was simply never going to happen- which may be correct- but the new location guarantees that it can never happen, which would seem to be a win for sprawl.

"fans will arrive on the home plate side of the park on the mezzanine level, while entering the outfield side (off the plaza) at field level."

Looks like separate entrances for the season ticket holders and the common rabble.

The ballpark itself reminds me a lot of Target Field, including the outfield plaza. Of course Target Field was built into an existing downtown area and is the transit hub for the Twin Cities. This place is bragging about all of the parking spaces.

The Braves' new stadium will do nothing to change the status quo for the better or worse.

OK, I see what you mean and I pretty much agree with you, but as a former resident of perimeter sprawl (Doravile... not far from there and definitely sprawl) i sympathize with the notion the other Scott is putting forth that a better placement of the stadium may have made public transit or cycling to the stadium at least possible and move Atl slightly closer to a more transit friendly urban city. Decatur or Midtown would have been very interesting choices near one of the Marta stations (though i have not clue what the land situation might be like). As it is though, you are right, its not making it much worse (have not been to a braves game in the mid 90's, but I always took Marta....)

No, he means the western shelf that is in a massive melt feed back loop. Keep trying, Sport.

I take issue with this.

Seeing as the south pole is pretty close to the dead center of the continent of Antarctica, all of it's coasts and ice sheets must, by definition, be on the north side of the continent. Because every direction is north.

OK, I see what you mean and I pretty much agree with you, but as a former resident of perimeter sprawl (Doravile... not far from there and definitely sprawl) i sympathize with the notion the other Scott is putting forth that a better placement of the stadium may have made public transit or cycling to the stadium at least possible and move Atl slightly closer to a more transit friendly urban city. Decatur or Midtown would have been very interesting choices near one of the Marta stations (though i have not clue what the land situation might be like). As it is though, you are right, its not making it much worse (have not been to a braves game in the mid 90's, but I always took Marta....)

Yeah, I guess my feeling is that a baseball stadium contributes to sprawl when it is located away from functional mass transit and away from dense concentrations of fans. There really isn't anywhere in Atlanta that provides dense concentrations of fans, so the transit is the only issue in play. Moving from the current location (with dysfunctional mass transit) to the new location (with no mass transit) marginally increases sprawl and forecloses the possibility of ever improving the transit situation (vis-a-vis the stadium anyway).

isn't most of what the Braves are doing related to their haaaarrrible TV contract?

I doubt it. Maybe they'd spin it like that, but the Braves' stadium situation and their television situation seem pretty independent of each other. Granted, if they're locked into a bad television contract, it makes it more crucial to fix the stadium situation, but if the Braves think they can improve their bottom line by moving, then they'll do that regardless of the TV contract.

Yeah, I guess my feeling is that a baseball stadium contributes to sprawl when it is located away from functional mass transit and away from dense concentrations of fans. There really isn't anywhere in Atlanta that provides dense concentrations of fans, so the transit is the only issue in play.

Fair point, though the counter from the Braves side of things is that they are in fact moving to the concentration of their fans. The map of season ticket holders shows Turner Field to be located in counties that simply don't buy season tickets; not surprising in that the area the stadium currently exists in is pretty poor overall. That popular Facebook generated map of "favorite teams" across the country showed that the only zip codes in metro Atlanta where Braves support dropped below 60% (and where Yankees fans climbed into double digit percentages) was...the zip codes immediately surrounding Turner Field. The new stadium is being built explicitly to move the stadium north, into the deepest zones of support, where all of the season ticket holders live (i.e. the "northern arc".)

Sam bought up John Elder but isn't most of what the Braves are doing related to their haaaarrrible TV contract? A new park and all its bells and whistles is their best avenue of raising revenues.

Two prongs of the same problem. The Braves have constrained revenue streams. They are constrained from a bad TV/radio contract signed back when the honchos of Time Warner wanted a sweetheart deal. They are constrained by limited attendance figures, especially during early season months before kids from around the southeast exit school for summer break and the exurban and rural fans make trips into the city. The new stadium/neighborhood is meant to 1) increase the numbers of casual weeknight fans in the early going by putting the games closer to local fans, 2) create a more "family friendly" atmosphere in the surrounding neighborhood itself, so that all of those travelling fans won't immediately drive away after the games, and 3) own the profits from many of the surrounding businesses that are serving the fans who are not immediately driving away after the games (and who should come earlier and do something other than sit in a baking parking lot drinking PBR while playing Skynyrd too loud.)

As DA points out, there was some sort of magical restructuring of the TV/radio deal last year, which brought in some 500 million in new revenue over the next decade or so. Details have not been released.

The Atlanta Braves’ new stadium and mixed-use development will add more than 20,000 vehicles to the already congested Cumberland Mall area on game days, according to an author of a traffic study for the team.

I don't think there's ever been an attempt like this by a baseball franchise to basically *be the developer* for the entire neighborhood.

Pfft. The Red Sox do this every century.

The current Red Sox ownership started snapping up Fenway area real estate soon after buying the team. There's been a tremendous amount of development throughout the Fenway area in the last decade, and a significant amount of it is on team-owned property. They've been constrained by an entire neighborhood having been established there in the preceding 100 years, so it's not precisely what the Braves are doing in Cobb Co.

But 100 years ago... Fenway Realty Group owned a lot of the area land and was looking to develop it. The Red Sox owner also owned a large stake in Fenway Realty Group, and chose not just to build the stadium in that area but to name it Fenway Park, to raise the profile of the area and to improve their prospects at developing the former swampland. I don't think it's been adequately researched how successful they were at this.

But 100 years ago... Fenway Realty Group owned a lot of the area land and was looking to develop it. The Red Sox owner also owned a large stake in Fenway Realty Group, and chose not just to build the stadium in that area but to name it Fenway Park, to raise the profile of the area and to improve their prospects at developing the former swampland. I don't think it's been adequately researched how successful they were at this.

Agreed. This is actually what the Braves are trying to do with Galleria/Cumberland Mall there in Cobb. It's the same thing they did in Wrigleyville as well. People tend to forget that "neighborhood" parks like Fenway were built before those neighborhoods were neighborhoods. At the time, Fenway and Wrigley were in "the sprawl."

Atlanta has a better chance of building a restaurant/bar/stadium district at Galleria than they ever did in Summerhill.

Mitigated somewhat by the fact that people coming to the stadium from work who do live in blue areas would pass pretty close to it for the most part, either from downtown or Jimmy Carter (notable exception - Alpharetta). But I'm most skeptical of the actual outcome being anything less than a major PITA on game days.