Sugar and spice but nothing nice…A dram of crocodile tears…A peck of bird brain…The tip of an adder’s tongue…Half a pack of lies, white, of course…The slyness of a cat…The vanity of a peacock…The chatter of a magpie…The guile of a vixen and the disposition of a shrew…And of course the hardest stone for her heart…..

Initially an evil, deceitful brunette, Smurfette was transformed by Papa Smurf into a glamorous (and less obviously evil) blonde. At which point Smurfs young and old began falling in love with her, supplicating themselves before her Smurfy beauty. Even Papa Smurf himself had the Smurfs for her, as you can see in the video above – even though, as her co-creator, he was basically her father. Ick. Sometimes Smurfette played her smurfy suitors against one another, inspiring them to even greater depths of supplication.

MGTOWers, and a lot of MRAs, basically see this as the basic paradigm of romance: men jumping through hoops to even get noticed by stuck-up women who need do nothing but exist in order to garner male attention. In the Smurf world, this was because there was only one Smurfette in a village full of lonely Smurfs. In the real world, in which men and women balance out more evenly, well, MGTOWers and MRA recreate the weird Smurfy imbalance by simply declaring most women undateable – too old (if they’re over 25 or 30) or too fat (with BMIs over 25). Hey presto! Now men, much like Smurfs, can compete against one another for the same small number of women, making almost everyone miserable in the process, especially themselves.

In Smurf world, of course, Smurfette is chaste and pure; she may kiss the boys but that’s about it. This hardly comports with the MGTOW notion that women are all slutty sluts, bedding down with every thug-boy and alpha male who makes their ‘ginas tingle, to use the peculiarly offputting parlance of the misogynist set. Natually enough, a few creative internetters have reimagined Smurfette as a Smurfslut. Warning: this video may destroy your image of Smurfette forever. This one’s worse.

Oh, and for an interesting discussion of the misogyny and apparent anti-Semitism of Smurf creator Peyo, see here.

MRAL, even if no one else says it, at least I will. Thank you for backtracking, and showing, at least slightly, that you can admit you are in the wrong. Not many people can go that far.

That being said, it is not normal to fly off the handle, even mentally, like that (even if they don’t act on that impulse, which is hopefully the case for you). We have seen you flare up in many previous posts, and given that posting on the internet takes intent (the press of the submit button after writing), I can only echo what others have said and suggest you talk to somebody. This is not to belittle you for your views, we’ve done plenty of that already. This is unrelated from any man vs. woman thing. Please seek help.

Oh I’m sorry, did I offend you? Too fucking bad. You described a detailed mental image you had of maiming someone for not returning your “hi” properly and you think nobody’s going to say there might be something wrong with that? And let’s not forget that this is after weeks of seeing you yammering on about what awful evil bitches most women are. Plus now you’re going to bullshit us and try and make us think you’ve never felt this way except that one time. If anyone should be offended, it’s everyone here for you thinking we’re that stupid.

Its amazing that a cartoon can match MGTOWs so well. Here we have an ideal society, a merry band of brothers each with their own lovable quirks. And who should destroy this paradise but an evil Womynz! *Sigh* And I thought the smurfs were so innocent…

The thing about my professor is that he’s generally a really nice, goofy person. Maybe he had a bad day. Maybe he was tired of this girl sleeping in his class and not studying and didn’t want to talk to her (I’d noticed he’s taken to addressing her with an informal and potentially insulting form of “you” whereas he addresses everyone else in the class by name). My point wasn’t just “men do it too” but also “people have their reasons.” You would assume from this anecdote that the prof is a dick, but he isn’t.

If the girl even acknowledged you, +100 points. I know I wouldn’t have. I would have given you a look like, “Why are you talking to me in an elevator??” But I spent forever in a city where the only time a guy would talk to you on the street (or wherever) was to hit on you, and I fucking hate being hit on. If I don’t know you and you aren’t stopping me to say I dropped something (in which case, “Hey, I think you dropped something!” is a good opener), I’m not interested. (Twice had “excuse me” used as an excuse to flash me. So I stopped responding to “excuse me” from men all together.)

And guys like MRAL never consider that some women deal with these forced interactions with strangers all the damn time or one time too many and would prefer not to … no, her negative reaction is oppressing him.

I was about to say something nice to MRAL about his earlier apology. Except it turns out it’s not an apology and he has done nothing wrong and we’re all assholes. MRAL, it’s possible for you to be wrong sometimes. Everyone is wrong sometimes.

Aspies tend to default to “I have no idea why the fuck you are doing what you are doing or what you want” not “you are all members of an evil conspiracy to deny me sex and smiles, bitches”.

True; in fact, most aspies I know are actually hard to insult because they don’t pick up on it (unless you insult their favorite smurfing TV show, lol). So you’re probably right. The similarity is just that he seems to be unable to conceptualize others’ feelings.

@katz:
Eh, yeah, you’re probably right. I’m a big softy at heart, even on the internets, and I know the shame of trying to say “I was wrong,” even when its anonymous. Even so, its a case of “I’m sorry about what I did.

…

BUT! I did nothing wrong, so there.”

Ah the not-pology, like holding a tantalizing piece of bacon above a dog’s nose only to substitute it with slime mold.

MRAL, I got news for you. If you’re for real, you’re all ready proving something. Not just to me, but anybody who cares to read this. You’re easily provoked, it’s almost impossible for you to admit when you’re wrong and whenever the stunted thing you have that passes for a conscience pipes up it is quickly silenced by your misplaced anger. You want to know why women avoid you? It’s not your outside. It’s what you’ve got contained in your head that’s seeping through to the outside. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not enough to send people screaming away from you in terror but it is enough to send a chill up the spine of anyone with more situational awareness than a fireplace brick. The only people that are going to want to be near you as long as you’ve got that kicking around inside your skull are people working on the same frequency you are. Anyone else is going to get the creepy crawlies after five minutes of close proximity with you, even men, but especially women.

So no, you don’t have shit to prove to me or anyone else that you haven’t all ready proven. Only person you have to deal with is you.

“I don’t think it’s acceptable to have such violent thoughts, but that time I couldn’t help it.”

“If the mods want to delete my violent comment that’s ok. I think it might be triggering to some people and I wish I hadn’t posted it. That’s not who I am. I think we all maybe lose control mentally once in a while.”

This sounds quite a lot like an acknowledgment of wrongdoing to me. MRAL didn’t actually abuse the girl. Not disagreeing about the need for therapy though.

New theory; every woman that comes into contact with MRAL is psychic. We need to get some scientists on this pronto to follow him when he is out and about and track down women that turn away and do not acknowledge him to show his picture to prove they felt his rapey, entitled to women’s bodies vibe.

If we can get some women in military intelligence to hone this skill for intel, the US would be unstoppable.

Anita Sarkeesian at Feminist Frequency posted a video on the “Smurfette Principle” (with a TV Tropes shout out!) recently. She’s half-way finished with her 6-part series on pop culture tropes about women. The first two posts (“Women in Refrigerators” and “Manic Pixie Dream Girl”) are also relevant to this discussion as they address the trope of marginalizing female characters through violence and the trope of the perfect woman having no life of her own. The site is awesome. Can’t wait for the remaining installments!

I’ve been watching the exchange with MRAL since he’s been here, I think that in some threads he’s gotten real compassion from the people here and maybe he might be saved.

MRAL, my brother is in a mental hospital again because of his battles with schizophrenia and very much because the mra has fueled his delusions. I’ve watched him online for years and not once has anyone in the mra camp questioned his decision making. Instead they’ve agreed that his wife is horrid and his children are damaged because of her beyond saving, which lead to him making more then one attempt on their lives.

The truth is none of the stories he recalls online are true. For instance he talks about how he lives in poverty supporting his family. The truth is our family supports him, to the point of hiring full time aids when he is functional enough to live independently and we’re not wiping him off the street after he’s gone missing.

The family has supported the ex-wife and grandchildren, and moved them when he becomes violent.

Someone on the thread said you might be have Aspergers, that idea was shut down. Personally I don’t believe that’s out of the range of possibility simply because aspie kids are not all the same.

But whatever your issues are I really hope you seek positive help, and I hope you don’t grow up to be like my brother. I have the idea that you are here postings maybe because you are searching for something other then the mra? If so I wish you all the luck in the world.

I just wanted to add one more thing, mental illness isn’t something we should really make fun of but people do.

There is no doubt that there is no one here that can claim they haven’t insulted someone who was either mentally ill or impaired, I’ve done it more times then I can count. (and sometimes people dismiss metal illness)

But it’s pretty clear to me and it seems to the overwhelming majority of posters in the last few weeks that MRAL is not firing on all cylinders, or he’s breaking down. Not a time to call him an asshole, is a time to explain to him this is asshole behavior.

Also a time to set boundaries, he shouldn’t be able to take over threads to make them about him..

I heart Cracked as well, but have to mention that you should take everything they say on there with a grain of salt. They do cite sources, but they’re a humor site, so they exaggerate and tend to state things as absolutes. For instance, when they say “science says,” they usually mean “this one study suggests.”

Kave, I’m not sure I follow you. Because I’m fairly certain you’re way too intelligent to be saying that me getting torqued about some guy talking about how he wants to rip a woman’s eye out for not showing him proper respect is the same as that guy wanting to rip a woman’s eye out for not showing him proper respect.

“Today I was on the elevator with someone I recognized from one of my classes, so I said hi. I’m not interested in her or being creepy or anything, it was just a polite “hi” meant to be one person to another. She basically looked completely put out, almost wrinkled her nose and said “hi” in the rudest possible tone imaginable, like she’d rather be anywhere than talk to me or be in my presence”

How the hell does one say hi in a rude tone? I am trying to think of ways in which I could say hi that could be construed as “explicit rudeness” and I got nothing.

“Like law1204 said…”Creepiness doesn’t register on other men’s radars but it does on womens’”Thats heresy law1204, you’re insinuating biology dictates ability. You are banned from the feminist movement. Men and women are interchangable, there are no biological differences in brain chemistry. Misogynist is what you are I tellz ya.”

I’ll help here, what’s creepy to WOMEN will not register on men’s radars. Better? Sort of like what’s oppression and worthy of a savage beating to MRAL is just someone not wanting to make eyecontact, smile, or speak for whatever reason to the rest of us.

“Seriously, who talks in elevators? Jackasses. Unless you were talking before you got on and you know everyone in the elevator at the time … why would you do that? Just to make people uncomfortable??”

Now that I think about the many times I’ve been on elevators, people rarely talk.

“It’s more the rudeness of female strangers, who judge me only on appearances.”

Unless they have actually said what they think of his appearance, he is very much assuming based on his own low self esteem.Or is there some way he is reading their minds?

It’s actually not that difficult to say “hi” in a way that conveys “oh my god I can’t believe you TALKED to me!” I kinda doubt this girl actually DID that, I’m sure it only happened that way viewed through MRAL’s skewed lens of expecting all women to treat him like ass, but it is actually possible. I tried to find a video but my google-fu is inadequate apparently. If you were here in person I could demonstrate :)

Also, while I definitely consider elevator conversations non-standard and prefer not have them, I have managed to be pleasant to people in elevators after my initial surprise that they talked to me in the first place. Usually it seems to be women who try to be chatty with me in the elevator at work (ones I don’t work with I mean – the people I DO work with I expect to talk to and that’s totally cool. it’s a multi-tenant building though and most of the people in it I have never even seen.)

‘Hey fuck you man, we’re talking about some fleeting surge of personal emotion, there’s nothing to “repeat”. I’m not “sorry” because I didn’t actually DO anything.’

This is the kind of thing a sociopath says. Yes, it IS you. This is you. A rage-filled, misogynist sociopath. You have said plenty on this and other threads to cement that impression in our minds. Calling women ‘bitches’ is doing plenty in my book- not even mentioning all of the other horrible things you say- for example, wanting to hurt a woman (and RIP HER LEFT EYE OUT!?! WTF, psycho?!)) in an elevator for not being fake-nice enough to you. And then saying you didn’t DO anything. Jesus fucking Christ. You are poison. And, hey- fuck you too.

I used to like this blog. Now it just gives me a fucking headache.
Why? MRAL and his non stop fucking made up fucking whining.
Seriously, by giving this wankstain a voice, you are alienating people who actually want to read the blog.
Fuck this. Out.

The whole “I got mad and you made me do it” attitude is really common among abusers, and yes, it is very entitled and very creepy. It’s the kind of thing that sets off alarm bells in other people, because that attitude can be very, very dangerous in a partner. Anyone with an ounce of self-preservation is going to avoid it like the plague.

And before anyone whines about being put in the company of abusers, you put yourself there. I’m just making the connection.

MRAL, your attitude is not the responsibility of other people. Your rage is not the responsibility of other people. It’s yours and yours alone. the good news is that you CAN change it if you want to, once you own up to it. It’ll take work, but it is possible.

As for the smurfs, I didn’t really watch them. You guys have much more extensive smurf knowledge than I do.

Kave, I am so sorry about your brother. I’ve wondered how many men in the MRM have untreated mental illnesses. Rather than get real help, though, they surround themselves by people who will make them more paranoid and delusional. Once someone has bought into the Spearhead worldview, though, it is like he is caught up in a cult and nobody on the outside of the cult can reach him. I hope that MRAL is not too far gone. The fact that he visits this website makes me wonder if he can still be reasoned with.

I’d say most of MRAL’s needs are being met here. Lots and lots of attention – who cares what kind? And a constant re-focus back to MRAL. It must almost seem like lots of people care about him. Gah. I’m kind of leaning toward Dave G.’s POV.

He may have a mental illness, but I don’t think that absolves him of his own responsibility. I understand that mental illness is a terrible thing, and very difficult to deal with, and I am saying this as someone who struggles with it daily. But people with mental illnesses are still people, with positive and negative traits, and they can still be responsible for themselves and seek out help.

MRAL may be mentally ill, but he is defiantly an asshole. And giving him a free pass just because he may be mentally ill is dehumanizing to all people who struggle with mental illness.

MRAL: You are 20, that’s not a whole lot of years. I’ve been all over the world, and I get looked at by some people, not looked at by others.

1: I suspect you have a moderate, baseline, hostility towards women.

2: I suspect, no matter how hard you try, this shows.

3: I also suspect that as soon as you decide a woman has, “spit on” you, that hostility is more manifest.

3a: I suspect your threshold time for deciding you have been spit on is fairly short.

3b I suspect that manifestations of your hostility, more than your looks are the reason women turn away.

4: As a man, I expect a fair number of the fleeting interactions I have with women to be of the sort where I offer a token of “friendliness” and get ignored. I expect that because women have a, not unreasonable, worry that men will be inappropriate.

As an aside, I also think the incidence of your being “spat on” is self-fulfilling. You so expect it, because you have accepted the nonsense of of the MRA/PUA model of human sexuality that you don’t believe any woman will look at you twice.

I am not “Brad Pitt”. I don’t get “sex anytime I want it”. That’s mostly because my primary partner is 3,000 miles away. When that’s not the case, I still won’t get it anytime I want it. Sometimes she won’t be in the mood. The reverse is also true, and so she won’t be able to get it anytime she wants it; if I’m not in the mood and some other partner isn’t nearby.

But I do get enough sex. In my life I can’t say I have ever gone for any significant chunk of time when I was interested in sex without some woman deciding I was worth going to bed with.

I don’t use,”Game”. I don’t “neg”. I don’t pretend to be someone I ‘m not. I am certain I try to figure out the things which will interest her. Things which will make her want to get to know me better. If she’s not interested in heading to bed with me, that’s fine. Because sex is nice, but it’s not what it’s all about.

And… from a purely self-interested point of view… other women are watching. If I treat one woman who isn’t interested well, then the odds are I will treat a woman who is interested well too.

Nobby: The moderating tool you describe is Disemvowelling. It used (though not commonly) at Making Light.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden created it, and when she was hired at Boing-Boing she used it there. I believe it is still used there. It’s moderately controversial. The reactions to it being largely (based on my observation, this is not a scientific study) based on two aspects of community mores:

1: A desire for an open forum, which isn’t rude/foul.
2: The history of commenting in a forum.

Boing-Boing had problems because an extant culture of “no hold barred” comments was being changed. Making Light didn’t because the community wanted to have an open discussion, but didn’t want to be trolled.

Complaints are that it’s “censorship”. Those (IMO) fail on three counts. One, censorship in a private forum is allowed. Someone who comes into my place and starts to shit on the carpet and piss in the punch is going to be shown the door. Two, the words are still there. If I have the urge, I can put it back together. Three, if someone comments before moderation removes the vowels, it doesn’t seem the response is an unwarranted non-sequitor.

Nope. Sociopaths can have a calm affect “on the surface” while seething with rage underneath. Emotional arousal is harder for the sociopath, but if that’s his baseline emotional state, well, he can resort to violence quite easily. That you recognize that your response was out of line is encouraging, but not enough.

MRAL: Lack of affect is not the same as lack of feeling/emotion. I am quite capable of being cold when enraged. I’ve cultivated it, because it was useful for my job. It doesn’t mean I’m not angry, just that it’s not as evident.

Sociopathy is a form of Antisocial Disorder. The diagnostic criteria, per the DSM IV are:

There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

* failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviours as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
* deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
* Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
* Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
* Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
* Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honour financial obligations;
* Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
* The individual is at least age 18 years.

There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

Which means calling you a sociopath is unwarranted. Honestly the very specificity of you wrathful ideation is one of the reasons I’m not as worried about it as some are. That you specify the left eye makes me think your problem is seated in your sense that you are physically unattractive, not from a specific hatred of women, qua women.

That is (though you seem unwilling to believe us) a correctable problem. If cosmetic correction isn’t possible, then attitude adjustment is. There are all sorts of examples of people who aren’t “attractive” who have managed to find partners, often partners who are, “attractive”. Biology being what it is, someone is is likely to think you are perfectly fine; if they can get past the reactionary anger/self-loathing (I realise this is a loaded phrase, but your consistent assertion that you are in some way so hideous that random passers by can’t bear to look you in the eye is indicative of a severe internalisation of your lack of worth; purely on a physical basis. I understand this. I have a very slight frame,and I have this [undeserved, so I am assured] belief that I am not all the prepossessing, even to the point of thinking I am unsightly. The acutal evidence of my life argues against it, but I am still a bit nervous about taking my shirt off in the presence of women I am interested in. I don’t let that stop me, but it does make me hesitate).

You are likely to tell me I am full of shit. That you can’t get women because they look down on you (metaphorically, as you are taller than the average american adult female), and despise you because you are an omega.

So, do yourself a favor. It’s late spring/early summer (depends on where you are). Go to a coffee shop, or streetside cafe. Get a table near the street. Look at the couples walking by. See how many of them there are. Look to see how many of them are, Look at all of them. Look to see how many have “Omega” men.

Use a notebook. If you want, try to decipher the pairings (A/A A/B A/O… B/A B/B B/O O/A A/B O/O) Do that for Males, and Females of each category (that will give you 18 possible combinations).

Do it for more than one day.

Then ask yourself if that empiric (extrinsic… none of us is good at evaluating ourselves) model is actually representative of the model the “Greek System” of the MRA/PUA describe.

Katz… The solution to being Emo is “becoming an hero”. Can you live with that on your conscience?

Also I am not a fan of the whole emo subculture. The weird thing is that almost every culture of rebellion has been constructive and “for a reason”. Hippies encouraged us to be green and peaceful. Punk encouraged us to not listen to the “man”. Grunge was anti conformist in a conformist way (Okay I cannot really defend grunge). Hell even Metal was just “be awesome and don’t care what all the people who judge you superficially say! If you want to put spikes on your leather jackets and sing songs about Valhalla using down tuned guitars then fine by us!”

Emo is just a complaint about how bleak someone’s life is despite the fact there is nothing bleak out there. Even the hippies and the punks lived in the shadow of the mushroom cloud (sorry I will stop using song lyrics!) but Emos are just “whiney”.

Maybe I have officially hit the age where I just don’t get kids anymore (25??? Its that it for me? In 10 years will I divorce my wife and have a midlife crisis? Scratch that? In 10 years will I have found a wife to divorce for my mid life crisis?)

Can you imagine a whinier MRA because you encouraged them to be emo? Good grief the world would implode from the concentration of self pity.

Maybe I am just jealous. Indian’s really don’t do emo well. It’s the accent. You cannot stay depressed if you sound like that! (Note Avicenna speaks like he wears a kilt)