Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by Trebor

With all due respect, I'm not going to waste my time dissecting your post. If you read my post properly, you would know that I have no personal interest in his fragrances. However, there are issues that should be raised and discussed.

I've noticed on these boards how reverence and sweeping issues under the carpet (oops! diplomacy) go hand in hand. I'm just voicing my opinions (opinions that probably others don't have the guts to openly mention) and have no need to discuss anything with Josh. He may be a one-man band but he's certainly not above criticism.

Just as how he's doing what he sees fit, I'm saying what I see fit...

I believe I did read your posts properly - you began the thread by informing many people of the price rises, and maintained that you were merely bringing the price rises to our attention. I liked that you quoted Josh so extensively in one of your posts, so that people can be well-informed.

You then, as you say, raised a number of issues for discussion. Your post (#28) employed hyperbole and rhetoric that made it clear you were moving from objective informer to subjective critic. This is when I responded with my own post, to put forward a contrasting point of view to yours.
I'm not saying any or all of your points are without merit, only that I feel differently to you in regard to some of them.

Nobody is above criticism, I agree, but by failing to acknowledge any points I've raised (even dismissing them as ill-informed or ignorant, stating that I didn't read your posts properly) couldn't it be said that you're failing to facilitate the discussion you say you want?

I'm sorry that you feel that dissecting my response is a waste of your time - I know my post came across as overly-reverent, but like you said, nobody's perfect (not even Jacques Polge).
Consider it me playing devil's advocate if need be, but you pride yourself on voicing your opinion, and so I've voiced mine.

Just as you 'say what you see fit', I hope the same liberty is granted to the rest of us.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

I believe I did read your posts properly - you began the thread by informing many people of the price rises, and maintained that you were merely bringing the price rises to our attention. I liked that you quoted Josh so extensively in one of your posts, so that people can be well-informed.

And that was my original intention, regardless of my personal views. Let me rephrase what I said in my previous post: if you acknowledged what was stated in my post, you wouldn't be asking me to contact Josh for clarification.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

You then, as you say, raised a number of issues for discussion. Your post (#28) employed hyperbole and rhetoric that made it clear you were moving from objective informer to subjective critic. This is when I responded with my own post, to put forward a contrasting point of view to yours.
I'm not saying any or all of your points are without merit, only that I feel differently to you in regard to some of them.

And his blog announcement was the catalyst for what followed. Is it that so difficult for you to grasp? So, you feel differently... *shrugs*

Hyperbole and rhetoric my ass!

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

Nobody is above criticism, I agree, but by failing to acknowledge any points I've raised (even dismissing them as ill-informed or ignorant, stating that I didn't read your posts properly) couldn't it be said that you're failing to facilitate the discussion you say you want?

Based on the way Josh operates, and what he's stated both in his blog announcement and interviews, I don't think I need anyone to tell me what to think. He's made himself pretty clear.

In a nutshell, I don't see why I should invest in a perfume house that is, essentially, selling draft versions of fragrances that haven't been fully realised. Finalising a composition and then later reformulating it is one thing, reformulating (or tweaking) each batch just because Josh simply feels the desire to do so doesn't generate much consumer confidence from where I'm standing.

While I admire his transparency, I don't agree with such a practice. With this kind of attitude, he'd probably be considered a hack elsewhere.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

Just as you 'say what you see fit', I hope the same liberty is granted to the rest of us.

And you are most certainly correct but my opinion still stands. Is that a problem for you?

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

I got this announcement during intermission of Thomas Ades' "Powder Her Face" and the combined events made me feel really, really gay!

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I have yet to get my hands on anything by Slumberhouse. I purchased 6 samples a couple weeks ago, and am still waiting for them to arrive. I like that it is a one man operation, and after reading the large update by email newsletter subscription the other night, I can totally sympathize. It's a one man band. If he is not in love with making something, he would become a slave to his customers, since he literally does every aspect of the operation. It's like when a one-man-kitchen takes a dish off the menu, or changes it slightly -- it's not a slap in the face of the customers, it's just the way of the world. You received joy for what you paid for in the past, but unfortunately it cannot be available forever. Things get eliminated everywhere, sadly.

If his fragrances are high-quality, and everybody else but him is charging much higher prices, why doesn't he deserve to make a buck? Happy wife, happy husband, happy children, happy dog, happy cat, happy home. Rather than being happy for receiving high-quality products for a low price for awhile, it's almost unfair to expect that advantage to last forever. Everything fades.

I hate bottle caps, I like the bottom of the new bottles, I like the laser-etching of the new bottles, and I like the glass marbles!

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by dvdlpznyc

I got this announcement during intermission of Thomas Ades' "Powder Her Face" and the combined events made me feel really, really gay!

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I have yet to get my hands on anything by Slumberhouse. I purchased 6 samples a couple weeks ago, and am still waiting for them to arrive. I like that it is a one man operation, and after reading the large update by email newsletter subscription the other night, I can totally sympathize. It's a one man band. If he is not in love with making something, he would become a slave to his customers, since he literally does every aspect of the operation. It's like when a one-man-kitchen takes a dish off the menu, or changes it slightly -- it's not a slap in the face of the customers, it's just the way of the world. You received joy for what you paid for in the past, but unfortunately it cannot be available forever. Things get eliminated everywhere, sadly.

If his fragrances are high-quality, and everybody else but him is charging much higher prices, why doesn't he deserve to make a buck? Happy wife, happy husband, happy children, happy dog, happy cat, happy home. Rather than being happy for receiving high-quality products for a low price for awhile, it's almost unfair to expect that advantage to last forever. Everything fades.

I hate bottle caps, I like the bottom of the new bottles, I like the laser-etching of the new bottles, and I like the glass marbles!

It's that kind of tact that makes me want to grab a sick bucket...

Never tried his fragrances? A strange statement coming from someone who professes not to have tried any Slumberhouse scents, thus making it impossible for them to be an ardent fan (or maybe not). The final sentence threw any credibility out the window, AFAIC.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by Trebor

In a nutshell, I don't see why I should invest in a perfume house that is, essentially, selling draft versions of fragrances that haven't been fully realised. Finalising a composition and then later reformulating it is one thing, reformulating (or tweaking) each batch just because Josh simply feels the desire to do so doesn't generate much consumer confidence from where I'm standing.

I think you've summed up very well why this line is not for you. Slumberhouse is not meant to inspire "consumer confidence." In fact, I would go as far as to say that a feeling of nothing-is-grounded and everything-is-changing fuels the entire concept. Sometimes you see people in an amusement park look at a ride and just know it will make them sick. This seems to be you looking at Slumberhouse from the outside. Ça suffit.

I have jumped on many times, and some of the most treasured bottles in my collection are ones that you are dismissing as "drafts." I don't see them as such. They are beautiful, ephemeral things that I grabbed hold of as they passed. Life is like this. I've made my peace with the fact that, esp. in the world of fragrance, nothing lasts forever.

If it's consumer rights and safety and constancy you want, I think you will only find frustration.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Regarding the reformulation, are there any fragrance houses, independent or otherwise, that reformulate only after having gone through an extensive consultation process with their consumers?

But this is after such customers have already shelled out cash for a bottle. Besides, it's impossible for Josh to get feedback from every single individual who has sampled his fragrances, so that in itself is flawed.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

Surely this approach to reformulation (and the regularly changing product lines) give credence to Josh's assertions that Slumberhouse is an outlet for his creativity. How boring would it be to create 6 scents that people like, never change them, and spend the rest of your days just mixing up the same formulas? I think a consistent, methodical approach like that would signal that he's treating it more like a business than a creative project. Besides, then we'd be criticising him for simply treading water.

Others manage by creating new fragrances...

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

Obviously the ideal situation would be for Josh to constantly expand his range of frags, while still having the older ones available for purchase, but again, if this is a side-project, he simply may not have the time.

And maybe he should have considered that beforehand.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

As for the 'higher price, lower volume', I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison between the old and new formulations. If the strength and longevity are dramatically increased, then there's no harm done, as I see it.
I must say I don't really dig the marbles in the bottle thing, though.

As I stated before, Josh can price his fragrances however he wants. But I did find it amusing that he took a leaf out of Andy Tauer's book. That's all.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

Concerning the discontinuation of his fragrances, at least Josh has the decency to tell us (twitter, mailing list, website) that they're being discontinued, thus giving people a chance to stock up on the fragrances they love. Who else does that? Certainly no mainstream perfumer does - we rely on word of mouth, stock levels at department stores, and speculation from disinterested SAs. Similarly with reformulations - the companies swear that the fragrances haven't been reformulated, so we jump on here and swear that they have been.

I agree but, compared to many other fragrance houses, his operations/distribution network is minute by comparison.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

Yes, we consumers are indeed vital to Slumberhouse's life as a perfumery, but not to the point where we should be able to totally dictate what Josh does.
There is a delicate balance between having power as consumers, and being grateful that Josh is putting out the fragrances he is.

Where did the concept of dictatorship come from?! The problem stems from Josh's (seemingly) constant restlessness and a lack of consistency (over a reasonable period of time). Grateful? Not me. Besides, there are a myriad of fragrance houses to fill the void.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

We shouldn't kiss his @ss in deference and reverence* and be happy with whatever he does, but simultaneously we shouldn't presume that his "fans and customers" have become partners in the business.

Now, your imagination is running away with you.

Originally Posted by timdoeswell

May I suggest raising your concerns with Josh directly? He may give you some inside info on new or rereleased fragrances, or at least give you his reasons for what he does.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by Brian Chambers

I think you've summed up very well why this line is not for you. Slumberhouse is not meant to inspire "consumer confidence." In fact, I would go as far as to say that a feeling of nothing-is-grounded and everything-is-changing fuels the entire concept. Sometimes you see people in an amusement park look at a ride and just know it will make them sick. This seems to be you looking at Slumberhouse from the outside. Ça suffit.

Brian, I couldn't give a toss about 'concepts' - especially when my money's at stake. If you think 'concepts' legitimise Josh's business practices (no matter how transparent he strives to be) then you're mistaken. But, hey, that's your decision, right?

Originally Posted by Brian Chambers

I have jumped on many times, and some of the most treasured bottles in my collection are ones that you are dismissing as "drafts." I don't see them as such. They are beautiful, ephemeral things that I grabbed hold of as they passed. Life is like this. I've made my peace with the fact that, esp. in the world of fragrance, nothing lasts forever.

And I'm very happy for you. You don't see them as drafts? Fine, that's your perception. Unfortunately, for you, my perception is the opposite.

Originally Posted by Brian Chambers

If it's consumer rights and safety and constancy you want, I think you will only find frustration.

I think you're getting over-dramatic here. For me, consistency is the key - even if it's only for 2-3 years. I don't have the time nor inclination to keep abreast of what changes Josh has executed every few months.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Think I'll take my money and buy Nasomatto instead. I was thinking about exploring this line, but the guy that runs it seems like he doesn't know what he's doing. I've heard the "It's a passion of mine and I'm not in it to make money" a million times over. Sounds like he's trying to justify paying extra for less and getting nothing but fluff in return. No thanks buddy!

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

1. He is not "reformulating" in the sense of the word most people use. All he is doing is improving each fragrance so that it is better than it was before. He is not lowering the amount of something, changing the concentration in a negative way, etc. like most reformulations. I've smelled multiple versions of the same fragrance, and let me tell you, the man knows what he is doing and each "reformulation" is seriously better than the last. He just wants people to enjoy the best possible fragrance, and if he knows he can improve it, he will.

So, why should I even invest in a bottle, if I want a Slumberhouse fragrance, knowing full well the next batch is going to be better? Surely, that defeats the object of enticing potential customers?

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

2. He holds the right to do whatever he wants. Don't you stop wearing a fragrance once you get a little tired of it? Plus, he is not "discontinuing" them as in they will never come back, more than likely they will just in small batches. None of those scents he discontinued sold well, and he wanted to make some new fragrances. You have to realize that he is just one person running the whole business, and stocking the incredibly expensive ingredients necessary to make those "discontinued" fragrances would make it nearly impossible for him to keep making new ones and turn a profit. Do you want him to fail?

That's not how he put it on his blog announcement. Maybe he should communicate his intentions more clearly? Furthermore you can't regard a perfumer being tired of producing a fragrance to a wearer who's bored of wearing a fragrance they purchased. Apples and oranges...

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

3. He already said he will include them if you ask him, and I'm pretty sure they will still be available no matter what he said before. He wasn't saying they were unnecessary, he was saying that the new sprayers don't really need them. Plus, if you had ever owned a Slumberhouse bottle, you would know the cap is tiny to begin with and serves no real purpose. He was trying to cut costs so that you could pay less. I guess that's a crappy thing for a person to do, huh?

Whether or not a fragrance has a cap doesn't bother me but it may bother others. Are you now saying that he never said, "I’ve also decided to stop shipping my bottles with caps as I find them unnecessary"?

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

4. He never said tough crap, you are just being mean. His "older" creations no longer exist and have not for a while. His oldest fragrance, Sova, has been changed enough to be new again...one of the only ones that has actually changed significantly. He is progressing as an artist. Picasso sold "crap" back when he was new, but once he got better, he sold better stuff. Singers and groups do this ALL THE TIME.

"So with that said, Rume, Grev and Vikt will no longer be available once the current stock has sold out. They have been removed from the website and are effectively discontinued."

I'm sorry but what you and Josh are saying don't correlate. As for Picasso, that's a terrible analogy. His earlier works were individual artistic statements with different names/titles (some of which weren't even intended for public consumption). Josh is evolving/changing/reformulating his fragrances but still using the same names. It wouldn't have been so bad if he added a suffix of some sort for the customers' benefit.

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

5. I have no idea what you are saying.

Well, you should. Josh's range has constantly changed over the last couple of years, which has been confusing to say the least. This may now be the first time his collection has 'stabilised'. And about time too. Not everyone discovers a fragrance house at exactly the same time.

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

6. He made the business a while ago as an extension of a clothing company, and at the time, it was just for him to have fun and experiment a bit with fragrances. Over time they split, and he started taking it more seriously. He sold stuff on Etsy just to gauge interest, and they sold well enough for him to open a store of his own online. I fail to see how you can say anything bad about a person following his passions. He is using it as an outlet, sure, but he still kept his top two sellers and most popular fragrances (Norne and Sova).

I'm not saying anything bad about him personally - I'm just saying I dislike his artisanal decisions.

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

By the way, it took him months to finally post this on the site, because of reactions like yours. He doesn't do it on a whim, he is being very professional about everything. Stop making assumptions.

What assumptions! LOL! This is all based on what Josh has stated (as proven in the points above). Either there's some serious discrepancies or Josh is failing to make himself very clear. By the way, you can't please everyone...

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

P.S: I tried to not sound like a fanboy or whatever, but I failed. I don't love everything he does, for sure, I just don't like when people disrespect someone I admire and respect. If you knew half of what I do about him, I guarantee you wouldn't have said half of that.

Yes, you have failed in that respect. You have also failed to separate his business decisions from the person that you personally know (and I don't recall making personal attacks at Josh - I just stated that I don't particularly like his unorthodox way of doing things).

Oh ! I know how to deal with those frustrations : Let's single out a little guy like Josh, who actually dares to be honest about these things, and have him be the one we dump on.

Your imagination's playing tricks with you, but that's what happens when someone doesn't agree with something you feel so passionately about. Your problem... not mine.

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

Thanks! Keep up being condescending! Consider yourself ignored. I don't have time for children.

As for the matters in this thread, I'd urge those of you who are interested in the house to keep an eye on the blog and to sub to the mailing list ;P.

Wow! It was a sarcastic joke, based on the fact that you're all fan boys. Keep up the good work equated to keep defending Josh's name/concept/fragrances [delete whatever's non-applicable]. You really need to lighten up!

I'm certainly not being the child - it is you who is sulking. Maybe you should have unsubscribed from this thread instead of blocking me? That's what mature people do.

Now, I think you should straighten-up your knickers. It's not a pretty sight...

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

Hope you enjoy Nassomato. I guess they share some similarities, though Slumberhouse is much darker (save BA from Nas). I'd disagree that Josh doesn't know what he is doing, especially considering people like Brian Chambers, one of the best noses here thinks he does some amazing work. Still, maybe you'll come back when this all blows over. Best to you! At least you were nice.

Yeah, I've heard some really good things about his fragrances. His methods and reasoning seem odd, but if that's what he needs to do to stay in business then more power to him. I'll take your advice and check back later to see if he can live up to the expectations of an improved product.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

I found the update to extrait de parfum a very good update, and, of course, the price would go up too.

BUT the discontinuation is almost incomprehensible. He dont like Rume anymore so we just go to fkng hell and its it?
And who love the fragrance, like me and 3 or 4 friends that ive sent a sample and bought a bottle?

I was so excited to get Rume even stronger, in extrait de parfum...
What a different way to run business, or non business with some higher profits now, or whatever...

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Brian, I couldn't give a toss about 'concepts' - especially when my money's at stake. If you think 'concepts' legitimise Josh's business practices (no matter how transparent he strives to be) then you're mistaken. But, hey, that's your decision, right?

There comes a point when people have divergent views in any civilized discussion about fragrance that you have to "agree to disagree." That point passed about halfway through this thread. In response to whether Slumberhouse is legitimate or how "mistaken" I am, how could I possibly agree to something that would have deprived me of some of my favorite scents? Pear+Olive is possibly my favorite scent of all time. Your continued nattering on about how illegitimate and mistaken everyone else is goes well beyond making a decision for yourself and stating your point of view. Simply put, you are not the one who decides ultimately. Time and the general momentum of opinion will either hold up Slumberhouse or tear it down. In the meantime, while we're all sitting around having a discussion, what exactly is the point of posting over and over again not just your opinion but how wrong you think everyone else is? It's a bit...uncivilized.

For me, I don't love every change that happens in this line. My ideal tobacco scent was the second iteration of Jeke. I much prefer it over the third (and now fourth?) because it was drier and less honeyed. But that's life. I'm not entitled to get the same thing every time. This is a person who is running his business much as I expect he runs his life--in the moment. By the way, it is a perfectly legitimate concept to consider the business side of the house as much a part of the concept as the compositions. You don't have to like it, but it's legitimate. It reminds me of art collectives that formed in order to create works that existed separately from the name of any single artist/creator, which was a pretty radical (and for some disconcerting) re-thinking of the business of visual art. Again, you don't have to agree that it's successful but to declare the entire concept illegitimate is pretty high and mighty.

Either you're willing to go along for the ride or you're not. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

This quote was removed at the request of the original poster.

You may know Josh "considerably well," but I would be careful about putting words in his mouth. I do not have any such knowledge, but I cringed when I read that he didn't post the announcement on the site because of reactions like Trebor's. I would be shocked if that were the case.

It is also perfectly legitimate for anyone to question the success of someone's business concept. It's not just about whether someone is passionate or not or whether they started on Etsy and that makes them sympathetic. In fact, really, why should I care about that at all? Either the juice speaks to me or it doesn't. And being a fan of this line requires a certain diligence so that something wonderful doesn't pass you by, so frankly the ante is upped in terms of how much I expect to be rewarded. On this matter, I have to say that I agree with Trebor. All these qualities that I'm sure makes Josh a great friend to you are not necessarily a rationale for why we should spend money on the scents. They have to stand on their own.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

You're right. I'll delete everything I posted (which will still show up in quotes unfortunately) and stop mentioning him or what he says, or anything about any of his fragrances ever again. Lately I feel like I can't do anything right, and I'm wondering if this is even worth it anymore. Life sucks.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by OctaVariuM

You're right. I'll delete everything I posted (which will still show up in quotes unfortunately) and stop mentioning him or what he says, or anything about any of his fragrances ever again. Lately I feel like I can't do anything right, and I'm wondering if this is even worth it anymore. Life sucks.

It's not all that bad, and I think it's fine to continue posting about Slumberhouse. I recently was gifted a ridiculously nice bottle of an O'Driù scent as a thank you for hosting a little event here around one of their fragrances, and it left me in a quandary about whether I could continue posting on BN about O'Driù and be unbiased. I think I can, but I decided that I would just add a little disclaimer when necessary to indicate that I had accepted a gift. I think introducing your comments with a note that you are friends with the perfumer is sufficient to give everyone else the correct context for your remarks. It would be unfortunate not to hear your comments at all. I for one enjoy reading them.

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

i love the vehemence!

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i am not claiming credibility. but i am allowed to have preferences. i do not like bottle caps, because it's another thing to have to juggle, and with a young puppy always at my heels, i hate the anxiety of dropping the bottle because i'm holding the cap... and i do think the aesthetic of the bottom of the new bottles is rather beautiful, as is the laser etching... irrespective of what's inside the bottles, which I've yet to smell...

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

Originally Posted by NYCBoomBoom

Received my samples today. I think Josh sent along his entire line. Any ideas on which one(s) I should start with?

It sort of depends on your style. Personally, I went in order of how they are presented on the main page of the website. However, if you got Sova, that would be a great starting point for you (as it was for me). I went on to Norne after that I think (bucking the aforementioned trend).

What did he send you? It varies (well, everyone gets the in production ones, but he will generally send extras).

Re: Slumberhouse: A Warning

I got my samples yesterday. I tried one spray here, one spray there, one spray here, one spray there, and I couldn't sleep until just a couple hours before work. After a long night at the opera (PARSIFAL), somehow I couldn't even think of resting. I love the "carnal delight" inherent in the fragrances. It's almost simplistic, forcibly restrained, but unrelenting in respective obsessiveness.

And today -- during work, during lunch, during dinner, I've been huffing-and-puffing... I found myself growing closer and closer to Pear Olive, I found myself finding the intensity of Norne rather calming (not to mention spectacularly scintillating), and Sova is growing on me slowly but surely... The others will have to wait for awhile...