In my opinion the make up of the England rugby team is going to be a lot different for 2008 with the passing of the world cup. Who do you think is going to break through and be the future of the team?

Sir Speedy

21-12-07, 05:20 PM

Danny Cipriani, he&#39;s looking extremely impressive at Wasps and will soon be the first choice 10 in England (If he can get rid of the errors he made in the second half against Clermont).
Ryan Lamb, could beat Cipriani to the shirt, maybe.
James Haskell, not seen much of him but the commentators speak highly of him.

I&#39;m not into GP rugby, so I don&#39;t know much more than these three. Cipriani could be the best player in his position. It would be good to see him play against James Hook in the opening Six Nations game.

danny

21-12-07, 05:36 PM

Danny Cipriani, he&#39;s looking extremely impressive at Wasps and will soon be the first choice 10 in England (If he can get rid of the errors he made in the second half against Clermont).
Ryan Lamb, could beat Cipriani to the shirt, maybe.
James Haskell, not seen much of him but the commentators speak highly of him.

I&#39;m not into GP rugby, so I don&#39;t know much more than these three. Cipriani could be the best player in his position. It would be good to see him play against James Hook in the opening Six Nations game.
[/b]

Cipriani is a real talent but I do have a few worries about his control of a game. He is at a similar stage in his development to what Lamb was last year. Eventually I think that Cipriani will be the better ten due to his intelligence and attitude, that is what lets Lamb down.
As for Haskell, he has to be in. What a player . He can play eight or six and is a real dynamic ball carrier, something England have been crying out for. I would like to see him given the responsibility of playing number 8 and letting him have the time to grow into the world class player he can be.

Bullitt

21-12-07, 05:48 PM

Well, if I were England coach, my selection come February would look something along the lines of;

All this talk of sticking with experience then slowly bringing in the youngsters is horse**** IMO. England have a perfect opportunity to start afresh with a young squad who can gel together for 4 years before New Zealand in 1011, I say blood the "youngsters" now and get them to gel. After which we can add even more up and coming players such as Grant Anderson in a couple of years when this team is starting to work together.

Then we will see the "Jake White" effect going into the next World Cup, maybe claiming a few supprise scalps along the way.

danny

21-12-07, 09:18 PM

Well, if I were England coach, my selection come February would look something along the lines of;

All this talk of sticking with experience then slowly bringing in the youngsters is horse**** IMO. England have a perfect opportunity to start afresh with a young squad who can gel together for 4 years before New Zealand in 1011, I say blood the "youngsters" now and get them to gel. After which we can add even more up and coming players such as Grant Anderson in a couple of years when this team is starting to work together.

Then we will see the "Jake White" effect going into the next World Cup, maybe claiming a few supprise scalps along the way.
[/b]

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and selections but in my view some experience must be used to help out and win in the short term. My team would be:

Vainikolo&#39;s a big call isn&#39;t it? I was watching a Guinness Prem game on ESPN - Australia, the other week and was impressed by his pace and size, but he still reminds me somewhat of Wendell Sailor...

Whatever happened to Van Gisbergen?

Bullitt

22-12-07, 09:20 AM

MVG was a victim of Andy Robson inept man management, given 37 seconds on the field for England (to make sure the ABs don&#39;t get him) before never getting selected again. This shot his confidence when he was arguably the best player in the country and he&#39;s never been the same, or for that matter particularly good, since.

SaintsFan_Webby

22-12-07, 09:52 AM

Sad as I am to say it, Dylan Hartley will be nowhere near ready for England duty when the Six Nations rolls around. Until he starts throwing properly at the lineout and gets back the dynamism in the loose which made people take note of him in the first place, other more consistent players will always be ahead of him in the queue.

Bullitt

22-12-07, 10:28 AM

Whilst I agree he&#39;s not quite as good as last season, the only real fault with Hartleys game at the moment is his lineout (which is in part due to the rubbish locks Saints have). In the loose he&#39;s been very handy and his scrummaging has been alright, so maybe being put alongside a better pack would help him get his form back for the set-piece.

dundeesmiffy

22-12-07, 11:24 AM

I struggle to watch GP or any club rugby for that matter, but from what I&#39;ve managed to watch.....

i support bringing in young players, maybe not for the 6N but for test matches etc.
this is the team i&#39;d like to see going into the world cup, minus some of the older players.

i also understand the irony of a Scot making up an England team......

SaintsFan_Webby

22-12-07, 07:27 PM

The day that backrow combination plays for England is the day I give up on rugby and devote my attention to fishing.

You also appear to be one of the few people who doesn&#39;t think that Andy Farrell is ****.

danny

22-12-07, 07:49 PM

Whilst I agree he&#39;s not quite as good as last season, the only real fault with Hartleys game at the moment is his lineout (which is in part due to the rubbish locks Saints have). In the loose he&#39;s been very handy and his scrummaging has been alright, so maybe being put alongside a better pack would help him get his form back for the set-piece.
[/b]

I have only seen Hartley play on TV and that was last season. I must admit he looked superb. Has he been injured and that is the reason for his current lack of form? He looked like his conditioning was his only problem last season. If his throwing is poor we should discount him for the time being as this is now the no1 reqirment for todays hooker. We have Azam at Glos who is superb around the park but dreadfull at throwing in. Perhaps Hartley would be better used as an impact sub. What do you think?

bryano

23-12-07, 07:26 AM

Don&#39;t really know that much, but I think Cipriani is a must

dundeesmiffy

23-12-07, 04:10 PM

The day that backrow combination plays for England is the day I give up on rugby and devote my attention to fishing.

You also appear to be one of the few people who doesn&#39;t think that Andy Farrell is ****.
[/b]

1. Consider the majority of English back rowers with at least moderate international experience are all getting on a bit, I thought I was just trying to pick the two I&#39;ve seen the most of, and have been impressed with. I can&#39;t remember what year, but Hazells performance in 7s was impressive.

2. Andy Farrell maybe isn&#39;t as good in Union as he was in League, and I&#39;d like to see him tried at Flanker to see how he fares but I still see him as a highly credible player.

It&#39;s fairly irrelivent anyway, looks like when the next world cup comes round you&#39;ll still have the same old relics playing for you (Dalagllio(sp?), grasping onto what&#39;s left of there careers.
The English national team is turning into the Rugby equivelant of WCW circa later 1990&#39;s.
There are so many good young players, but every coach you&#39;ve had has kept pretty much the same basic outline as the team that won the RWC03. Admittedly Tom Varndell hasn&#39;t had as good a career in XV as he has in 7&#39;s but he&#39;s only had about 2-3 shots at it, don&#39;t condem him for that.

It&#39;s not just that I&#39;m Scottish, but I think England will suffer the most if the new rules come in, luckily you have guys like Cipriani, Tait and Cohen (maybe) who are strong ball carrying backs who don&#39;t try to force penalties because quite frankly 12-9 victories are nothing to be proud of. The world cup final was one of the most boring matches I have ever seen.

Sorry for the rant, I just don&#39;t suffer idiots who offer nothing but critisism well. Also, Brian Ashton leaving the door open for LD miffed me off.

danny

23-12-07, 07:01 PM

<div class='quotemain'>
The day that backrow combination plays for England is the day I give up on rugby and devote my attention to fishing.

You also appear to be one of the few people who doesn&#39;t think that Andy Farrell is ****.
[/b]

1. Consider the majority of English back rowers with at least moderate international experience are all getting on a bit, I thought I was just trying to pick the two I&#39;ve seen the most of, and have been impressed with. I can&#39;t remember what year, but Hazells performance in 7s was impressive.

2. Andy Farrell maybe isn&#39;t as good in Union as he was in League, and I&#39;d like to see him tried at Flanker to see how he fares but I still see him as a highly credible player.

It&#39;s fairly irrelivent anyway, looks like when the next world cup comes round you&#39;ll still have the same old relics playing for you (Dalagllio(sp?), grasping onto what&#39;s left of there careers.
The English national team is turning into the Rugby equivelant of WCW circa later 1990&#39;s.
There are so many good young players, but every coach you&#39;ve had has kept pretty much the same basic outline as the team that won the RWC03. Admittedly Tom Varndell hasn&#39;t had as good a career in XV as he has in 7&#39;s but he&#39;s only had about 2-3 shots at it, don&#39;t condem him for that.

It&#39;s not just that I&#39;m Scottish, but I think England will suffer the most if the new rules come in, luckily you have guys like Cipriani, Tait and Cohen (maybe) who are strong ball carrying backs who don&#39;t try to force penalties because quite frankly 12-9 victories are nothing to be proud of. The world cup final was one of the most boring matches I have ever seen.

Sorry for the rant, I just don&#39;t suffer idiots who offer nothing but critisism well. Also, Brian Ashton leaving the door open for LD miffed me off.
[/b][/quote]

Fair play ive listened to some ******** on this forum, but you take the ****. I really hope your trying to wind the rest of us up.
You start by saying that you struggle to watch much GP or any club rugby- Why comment on something you dont know anything about then.
You pick a back row of;
6 Hazel
7 Moody
8 Lund

Hazel is the smallest open side in the league who couldnt play blind side at club level yet alone international.
Moody at 7, not bad bt not as good as rees. No probs with that.
Lund at 8,What the f***!!!!!!! He is a fine open side and can play blind but 8 is not him.

You say Cipriani and Tait are strong carrying backs, really would you call them crash ball merchants, dont think so.
Cohen, not a hope of playing for England again at least for this season.
Farrell is a pile of **** and should never get near the red rose again.
You thought the WC final was the most boring game you have ever seen-Big games are sometimes strangled by fear and tension that is sport , that is rugby at the highest level.

Dont have a go at Saints fan Webby for pointing out what a clueless **** you are.
PS. I hope they bring back Dallaglio just to **** you off.
Kind Regards. :%#%#:

SaintsFan_Webby

23-12-07, 07:49 PM

You pick Lund at 8, a position I don&#39;t remember having seen him play at the top level. You then compound matters by putting a 6 at 7 and a 7 at 6. And Andy Hazell is an ordinary club level thug at best.

You also consider Mike Tindall, a man who cannot throw a decent pass, at 12 ahead of youngsters such as Anthony Allen. You were better off with Farrell.

Finally you put Ben Foden, an up and coming scrum half who has deputised at fullback, on the wing.

Why say you struggle to watch the Guinness Premiership, then moan when I point out the weak links in your team?

Canuck-Backrow

23-12-07, 08:54 PM

Wilkinson has to stay at 10 for at least a little longer, maybe slot into 12 to help get the youngsters up to pace. AT the very least he will remain in the squad for sometime......I think Hipkiss and Tait will eventually become the centre pairing of the future for england, Flood will squeeze his way into the backline somewhere, and as already said Lamb and Ciprani will be coming through.

As far as backrow combos go

6.Haskell
7.Lund
8. Forrester? Crane?

I dunno, Forrester&#39;s getting a bit old considering his lack of international experience...Jordan Crane of Leicester Tigers could evolve into a fantastic #8 given time

I see a very bright future for england! RWC 2011 here we come!

stormmaster1

24-12-07, 10:21 AM

I don&#39;t think Ashton has left the door open for Dallaglio. He said he will pick the best on form players in each position. So Dallaglio&#39;s out.

Lots of talk about which young promising players to include, but i think we should also think which of the older heads should stay. T&#39;Eh Mite&#39;s team looked good on paper, but so much inexperience learning test match rugby at the same time wouldn&#39;t work. So which of the older heads would you lot like to see around the squad (whether 1st XV or benched). leadership will be key to bring on any young squad, and i think experience in the front 5 and at half back is most desirable. Of the more seasoned players availible, i&#39;d like to see the front row remain similar, particularly Stevens and Sheridan. Vickery, Corry and Wilko were the key leader figures in the side in the WC and should be in the mix up. There are several experienced locks to choose from and in the back row i think i&#39;d keep Moody as he&#39;s more dynamic than Worsley. I think that would be the core of the side (i.e. most of the pack), with the young talent really in positions where they can lift the pace. The difficulty will be getting some experience in the backline, as wilkinson and catt have been the two key figures for this.

SaintsFan_Webby

24-12-07, 10:55 AM

In the short term, England have to keep Gomersal at 9. There simply aren&#39;t enough top level scrum halves pushing for selection at this point, and a man of his experience (and recent form) at 9 would provide a vital link between a pack and backline both likely to include a number of new(ish) faces.

Incredible Schalk

24-12-07, 06:17 PM

Surely you would say Ellis is a better scrum half than Gommersal? considering the potential as well as his effective performances in the 6 nations Ellis is the better bet im also the fact Gommersal is close to recieving his pension. ;)

danny

24-12-07, 06:54 PM

Surely you would say Ellis is a better scrum half than Gommersal? considering the potential as well as his effective performances in the 6 nations Ellis is the better bet im also the fact Gommersal is close to recieving his pension. ;)
[/b]

Ellis is still injured so Gommersal has to play in the next England game vs Wales. Watched Gommersal vs Glos for Quins and he was very sharp. If it aint broke...................................

SaintsFan_Webby

24-12-07, 07:12 PM

Surely you would say Ellis is a better scrum half than Gommersal? considering the potential as well as his effective performances in the 6 nations Ellis is the better bet im also the fact Gommersal is close to recieving his pension. ;) [/b]

I like my scrum half to actually be able to provide quick service to the players outside him. Harry Ellis, while very athletic, has a slower delivery speed than an arthritic postman with lead weights tied to his feet.

stormmaster1

31-12-07, 02:50 PM

<div class='quotemain'> Surely you would say Ellis is a better scrum half than Gommersal? considering the potential as well as his effective performances in the 6 nations Ellis is the better bet im also the fact Gommersal is close to recieving his pension. ;) [/b]

I like my scrum half to actually be able to provide quick service to the players outside him. Harry Ellis, while very athletic, has a slower delivery speed than an arthritic postman with lead weights tied to his feet.

[/b][/quote]

Fair enough, but Ellis is a potential game breaker, and has more future potential than Gommersall. I suspect if Ashton thinks he has a hint of his pre-injury form then he will be ushered into the squad.

Bullitt

31-12-07, 02:52 PM

I suspect the only reason Ellis is ushered into the Engand squad will be down to RFU nepotism.

Fa'atau82

31-12-07, 04:12 PM

New blood players who should be knocking hard on the door at least for a or another chance are:

Cipriani, Haskell, Allen, Lamb, Foden, Flood, Geraghty and Simpson-Daniel to name but a few. Couple that with a little bit of experience like Shaw, Wilkinson, Gomarsall and some promising caps like Strettle, Easter, Tait and we should have a team that although won&#39;t beat the best it will stand us in good stead for seasons to come.

It is also the time to try these players out to see if they are Matt Le Tissier style flops or Michael Owen type trailblazers.

Going from domestic to European club rugby isn&#39;t easy and most of those guys have done it ok so far, so the next step can only be full caps, and they can&#39;t be much worse than the bunch of old codgers we had during the RWC.

Dallaglio and Vickery these days are like lingering farts for England, they are unpleasant in every way but won&#39;t go away quick enough.

stormmaster1

02-01-08, 01:00 PM

I suspect the only reason Ellis is ushered into the Engand squad will be down to RFU nepotism. [/b]

He&#39;s the only scrum half in England who has proved that he is a threat to the defence. He demolished Scotland single handed. If his running causes enough problems, then he will be ahead of Gommersall. It&#39;s not about having a great overall game, it&#39;s about doing whatever is neccessary to win.

Cusker

02-01-08, 01:15 PM

I rate Ellis as a scrum half. But he is one of those stupid players that sometimes sees red. There is no doubt he is the best running scrum half in England but his passing lets him down. I think Paul Hodgson should be given a chance whenever i see him play his is quality. But tbh i don&#39;t know who i would choose between Ellis and Gommersall,depends what team England were playing.

bernie15

02-01-08, 01:52 PM

Why not start to nurture younger talent, like for instance John Brake from Northampton.
A year or so in the Saxons and who knows, it&#39;ll make or break him.[color=#33CC00][size=2]

Bullitt

02-01-08, 04:34 PM

<div class='quotemain'> I suspect the only reason Ellis is ushered into the Engand squad will be down to RFU nepotism. [/b]

He&#39;s the only scrum half in England who has proved that he is a threat to the defence. He demolished Scotland single handed. If his running causes enough problems, then he will be ahead of Gommersall. It&#39;s not about having a great overall game, it&#39;s about doing whatever is neccessary to win.

[/b][/quote]

No he didn&#39;t. He farted about behind rucks and created 1 try from a reasonable break.Even Wilkinson, Worsley and Grewcock looked good that day.

Danny Care is mile ahead already of Ellis. If he played for a "Fashionable" club instead of Quins he&#39;d already be a shoe-in for the England 9 shirt.

danny

02-01-08, 05:23 PM

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'> I suspect the only reason Ellis is ushered into the Engand squad will be down to RFU nepotism. [/b]

He&#39;s the only scrum half in England who has proved that he is a threat to the defence. He demolished Scotland single handed. If his running causes enough problems, then he will be ahead of Gommersall. It&#39;s not about having a great overall game, it&#39;s about doing whatever is neccessary to win.

[/b][/quote]

No he didn&#39;t. He farted about behind rucks and created 1 try from a reasonable break.Even Wilkinson, Worsley and Grewcock looked good that day.

Danny Care is mile ahead already of Ellis. If he played for a "Fashionable" club instead of Quins he&#39;d already be a shoe-in for the England 9 shirt.
[/b][/quote]

The reason Care will not be in the England side to play Wales is he is not ready yet. Whether he makes it in the future only time will tell. You seem to think that just because someone is young and up and coming they should be thrown straight into international rugby. Scrum half is a pivotal position within the team and to expose a developing player such as Care at this stage could set him back years (eg: Taits debut vs Wales).
As for saying Quins is not a fashionable club whose players dont get picked for England is simply daft, what about Strettle, Gommersal,Easter-who do you think they play for?
If you are good enough you will get a chance!

Explain Simpson-Daniel then? Or why Barkley wnt to France ahead of Flood?
[/b]
England lost patients with S-Daniel due to his illness/injuries. Barkley went instead of Flood due to better defense and place kicking( not saying i agree with either but those are the obvious reasons)
Any more questions ?

mrrod

02-01-08, 09:15 PM

My team would be:

1. Sheridan (although I don&#39;t rate him as much as many people)

2. Mears

3. Stevens

4. Shaw

5. Kay

6. Haskall

7. Rees

8. Easter

9. Gomarsell (until Ellis returns)

10.Cipriani

11. S-Daniel

12.Wilkinson

13. Hipkiss

14. Strettle

15. Tait

16. ?????

17. Wood

18. Corry

19. Lund

20. Lamb

21. Allen

22. Vanikolo

Wilkinson is there to provide experience in the backs and to take pressure off Cipriani.

Foden would be in at full back if he was fit.

While Hartley is playing in national 1 i feel the step up will be too big.

Corry provides experience and cover in the back row and second row. I feel Peter Short will replace him soon.

Vanikolo - Wildcard but a potential high impact sub which England missed in the world cup.

Hodgson would be in the squad somewhere in case Wilkinson fails to be good.

aikitim

09-01-08, 12:53 AM

I agree that Ellis is the better 9 at this point in time, however he still seems to be out of playing shape at this juncture, leaving Gomersal the next best option...

stormmaster1

09-01-08, 09:52 AM

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'> I suspect the only reason Ellis is ushered into the Engand squad will be down to RFU nepotism. [/b]

He&#39;s the only scrum half in England who has proved that he is a threat to the defence. He demolished Scotland single handed. If his running causes enough problems, then he will be ahead of Gommersall. It&#39;s not about having a great overall game, it&#39;s about doing whatever is neccessary to win.

[/b][/quote]

No he didn&#39;t. He farted about behind rucks and created 1 try from a reasonable break.Even Wilkinson, Worsley and Grewcock looked good that day.

Danny Care is mile ahead already of Ellis. If he played for a "Fashionable" club instead of Quins he&#39;d already be a shoe-in for the England 9 shirt.
[/b][/quote]

Not seen too much of Danny Care, but the main point about Ellis at the moment, however much you or i may or may not rate him, is that he was No1 choice Scrum Half in the 6N and appeared to be getting Ashtons total support. Since then Gommersall has hit form, but he is a player capable of losing form easily too. There is a good chance that noone will take the No9 jersey as their own, in which case Ellis would be in relatively quickly. I suppose a summer tour spot is more likely for him though.

stormmaster1

09-01-08, 10:03 AM

moving on from the scrum half,

Who should be captain? I know Vickery is the obvious choice, but i personally think Stevens should be the tight head. Do we have other options? The few i could think of with leadership skills are Wilko and Borthwick. I&#39;m unsure about some of the other players, what about Shaw?

Maybe Ashton will pick Vickery as captain, but continue to give him 60 mins.

dundeesmiffy

09-01-08, 12:49 PM

according to scrum.com Mike Tindall is the suspected choice but i (now) think it&#39;d be a faux pas to include him in the team with some many prospects for inside center, even outside center if Tait is chosen at fullback; which could be a hit or a miss.

I think it&#39;d be pretty foolish to include a myriad of young players with little experience on the field at one time, maybe some of the older (not old) boys to keep the team under wraps and relieve pressure.

Like at least 2 experienced players in the tight five, 2 in the back row considering it&#39;s a pretty big part of the modern game, an experienced half back pair but maybe bring on a less experienced pair later on the game, maybe a 12 that can cover in at 10 also for when that happens to relieve some pressure from Cipriani (who is most people first choice), probably tait and barkley (or flood, i always get those two mixed up!) on the inside center, sakey and varndell on the wings would be my choices and a well versed fullback would be an ample choice.

i think englands best shot is to have a 1:2 ratio of new guys to old guys in the first XV for the first game against wales, it&#39;ll get new players on the field and won&#39;t comprimise the team because of nerves etc.

However, I&#39;d be putting in Easter instead of Worsely, just consided him a more dynamic forward. I would also start with Chuter and have Mears coming on early in the second half.

Really think playing new stars like Cipriani and the Volcano early on is a mistake. At the moment, using them as impact players is going to work best when the opposition is tiring. Imagine seeing Big Les running full pelt at you after 70 minutes of rugby. Fun

melon

11-01-08, 11:35 AM

I&#39;d get rid of Vainikolo immediately.

They call him "The Volcano"....pfffft....THE DORMANT VOLCANO!

Dozzy_X

11-01-08, 04:37 PM

I&#39;d get rid of Vainikolo immediately.

They call him "The Volcano"....pfffft....THE DORMANT VOLCANO!
[/b]

have you ever seen him play? He offers England something they&#39;ve never had with a Lomu-esque physique. Vainikolo is NOT slow either. In my eyes the perfect impact player, we&#39;ll see against Wales but i expect him to perform.

nick_w

11-01-08, 05:02 PM

<div class='quotemain'>
I&#39;d get rid of Vainikolo immediately.

They call him "The Volcano"....pfffft....THE DORMANT VOLCANO!
[/b]

have you ever seen him play? He offers England something they&#39;ve never had with a Lomu-esque physique. Vainikolo is NOT slow either. In my eyes the perfect impact player, we&#39;ll see against Wales but i expect him to perform.
[/b][/quote]

Thing is, is he actually as "Lomu-esque" as the tabloids are making out. I happened to pick up a copy of The Sun the other day (not my normal choice, but it was on the train) and they were putting him up as our new Lomu.

In todays game though, someone like Lomu would have trouble surviving. When was the last time you saw a winger dominate and power through the back line like Lomu did in the &#39;95 and to a less extent in the &#39;99 World Cup. In recent years wingers have been more about speed than power. Take Caucaunibuca&#39;s try against France 5 years ago, or more recently the performance of Habana, and lesser known wingers such as the American Lyle. The game has moved on from shoving a huge bloke on the wing to power through.

Saying that, I am really looking forward to seeing whether he does bring a new dimension to the English back line. Would still prefer to see someone like Simpson-Daniel or Strettle over Vainikolo.

Linking to the backline selection, was quite surprised to see Lewsey omitted. I still think he has quite a bit to offer the set up in terms of experience and running the right lines.

Prestwick

11-01-08, 07:29 PM

I&#39;m quite excited as a Saracens fan. The U20s have four Saracens players in their squad and all of them are very recent Academy guys Noah Cato and Alex Goode. Goode is such a hot prospect for us right now, allot of Saracens guys are really talking the guy up. Hopefully he can shine in the U20 internationals. If anyone goes to see their matches at Gloucester, someone tell me how Alex Goode is?

SaintsFan_Webby

11-01-08, 08:53 PM

Scarily enough there&#39;s a guy in the U20s squad that I used to play with. Was in the year below me at school although you wouldn&#39;t think it if you stood us side by side. Makes me feel old.

have you ever seen him play? He offers England something they&#39;ve never had with a Lomu-esque physique. Vainikolo is NOT slow either. In my eyes the perfect impact player, we&#39;ll see against Wales but i expect him to perform.
[/b][/quote]

Thing is, is he actually as "Lomu-esque" as the tabloids are making out. I happened to pick up a copy of The Sun the other day (not my normal choice, but it was on the train) and they were putting him up as our new Lomu.

In todays game though, someone like Lomu would have trouble surviving. When was the last time you saw a winger dominate and power through the back line like Lomu did in the &#39;95 and to a less extent in the &#39;99 World Cup. In recent years wingers have been more about speed than power. Take Caucaunibuca&#39;s try against France 5 years ago, or more recently the performance of Habana, and lesser known wingers such as the American Lyle. The game has moved on from shoving a huge bloke on the wing to power through.

Saying that, I am really looking forward to seeing whether he does bring a new dimension to the English back line. Would still prefer to see someone like Simpson-Daniel or Strettle over Vainikolo.

Linking to the backline selection, was quite surprised to see Lewsey omitted. I still think he has quite a bit to offer the set up in terms of experience and running the right lines.
[/b][/quote]

Granted Vainikolo won&#39;t make the same impact Lomu did at the 1995 world cup as professional rugby physiques all over the field have improved vastly over the last 13 years (it really has been 13 years :o ) However ur comment that putting a huge bloke on the wing doesnt happen anymore, take Tuilagi&#39;s impact last year in the Guinness Premiership final. Ok that wasnt international rugby, but there were over 20 full internationals on display and Gloucester had no answer to his power that day. Now they have a heavyweight winger of their own in Vainikolo and a great job he is doing. Impact sub, there is no better, full England starter.... only time will tell. One thing is for sure, Rugby league converts are best suited to the wing in rugby union and Vainikolo, i believe, is having a great first season using both his speed and power to full effect.
I do agree about Lewsey though, complete versatile back and one of Englands few performers at the world cup. i&#39;d prefer him to balshaw hands down.

melon

11-01-08, 11:08 PM

<div class='quotemain'>
I&#39;d get rid of Vainikolo immediately.

They call him "The Volcano"....pfffft....THE DORMANT VOLCANO!
[/b]

have you ever seen him play? He offers England something they&#39;ve never had with a Lomu-esque physique. Vainikolo is NOT slow either. In my eyes the perfect impact player, we&#39;ll see against Wales but i expect him to perform. [/b][/quote]
Yes, I have seen him play. Thats why I voiced my opinion on him. It would be pretty hard to say something without seeing him play.

Unfortunately, everytime I have seen him play Internationals, I have been immensley disappointed. The only place I have ever seen him play well at top level club is in the ESL and even then he was pretty inconsistent with his supposed brilliance.

Whilst I have formed the opinion that he is as useless as a spare dick at a wedding, I&#39;m looking forward to seeing him play in this years 6 Nations. I want to see him perform and live up to his hype. Will he do it? I doubt it, but I hope he does.

Alexgorn

13-01-08, 05:47 PM

I believe that England more than confidence to arrive gained the six nations because it can have the best players of the world but to gain a match of Rugby is needed confidence needs.

Canadian_Rugby_Guy

15-01-08, 07:13 PM

Tuilagi is a far cry from being Lomu. I don&#39;t deny his skill or potential, but at the World Cup he was quiet and I&#39;ve never seen very electric pace from him. now this "volcano" person I haven&#39;t really seen in action on account of not being to catch any Gloucester games lately, so I don&#39;t know, but Tuilagi&#39;s lack of success, I&#39;m not really optimistic about this Tongan either. As for the rest of the England squad, it appears that there is a serious lack in the centres. Jamie Noon isn&#39;t bad but he isn&#39;t great, Tindall&#39;s a thug, Toby Flood is inexperienced and would play more the role of a second fly-half rather than a running centre. By not having Allen or Hipkiss in the squad Ashton has bent himself over and put his c*** up his rear.

I&#39;d have Kay and Borthwick. worsley is&#39;t an out and out 8. We need one. So Easter for me. Rees is in a Balshw-esque run of form, so i wouldn&#39;t start him, talented as he is. I&#39;d go with Easter, Moody and Lund with worseley benched. Agree with the backs.

Lovell Rugby

25-01-08, 12:30 PM

Would like to see Lee Mears get a bit of a run at the moment, he has proved himself at Bath and is ready for the step up.

have you ever seen him play? He offers England something they&#39;ve never had with a Lomu-esque physique. Vainikolo is NOT slow either. In my eyes the perfect impact player, we&#39;ll see against Wales but i expect him to perform.
[/b][/quote]

Thing is, is he actually as "Lomu-esque" as the tabloids are making out. I happened to pick up a copy of The Sun the other day (not my normal choice, but it was on the train) and they were putting him up as our new Lomu.

In todays game though, someone like Lomu would have trouble surviving. When was the last time you saw a winger dominate and power through the back line like Lomu did in the &#39;95 and to a less extent in the &#39;99 World Cup. In recent years wingers have been more about speed than power. Take Caucaunibuca&#39;s try against France 5 years ago, or more recently the performance of Habana, and lesser known wingers such as the American Lyle. The game has moved on from shoving a huge bloke on the wing to power through.

Saying that, I am really looking forward to seeing whether he does bring a new dimension to the English back line. Would still prefer to see someone like Simpson-Daniel or Strettle over Vainikolo.

Linking to the backline selection, was quite surprised to see Lewsey omitted. I still think he has quite a bit to offer the set up in terms of experience and running the right lines.
[/b][/quote]

You say Lomu would have trouble surviving in todays game. Are you insane? Lomu in his prime would still be an absolute beast. defences are tighter and hits have got bigger but Lomu is without doubt the most powerfull rugby player of all time. also cau cau is a real power merchant who doesnt rely on speed alone.

yeastextract

02-02-08, 02:12 PM

i think brian ashton made a mistake leaving tait out 4 todays match

balshaw is nowhere near as good as he was 5 years ago

vainikolo is a risk that will have big effects

whether they are good or bad is yet 2 be seen

Bullitt

02-02-08, 02:14 PM

balshaw is nowhere near as good as he was 5 years ago[/b]

And he was chuffing ****e back then.

speedysalmon

03-02-08, 10:36 AM

I think its a mistake leaving Lewsey out, he offers power and experinece to the England backline.

lbculhane

03-02-08, 04:13 PM

cipriani in for balshaw.....whom hopefully will walk in front of a very very very fast car this week

9. Ellis.
10. Wilkinson. (Cipriani is still a bit raw).
11. Vanikolo. (England need to actually give him the ball though).
12. Flood.
13. Noon. (Without Tindall we need a bit of grit, power and tackling in the midfield).
14. Sackey. Simpson-Daniel (Strettle if he can stay fit).
15. Tait. (With experience he could really grow to be a very good 15).

beckhamitsme

15-02-08, 07:35 AM

england must keep j. wilkinson to have a beautiful play, sackey and flood are good players but less than ben cohen :bana:

peppers07

15-02-08, 08:39 AM

Strettle and tait should noy be in the team

SaintsFan_Webby

15-02-08, 10:10 AM

Strettle and tait should noy be in the team [/b]

Are you kidding? Strettle and Tait are 2 of the only backs to have featured in the tournament for England so far who should be there.

NSRFC_Saint

19-02-08, 04:58 PM

I&#39;d select the following XV for the France match (I know it&#39;s already been named):

That&#39;s a seriously lightweight three quarter line there Gavin. I know Cipriani, Geraghty and Lamb are talented players, but they&#39;d get steamrollered by the likes of Henson/Shanklin or D&#39;arcy/O&#39;Driscoll.

Not sure if others agree, but I always think one of the centres needs to be able to take a crash ball.

nick_w

03-04-08, 11:02 AM

That&#39;s a seriously lightweight three quarter line there Gavin. I know Cipriani, Geraghty and Lamb are talented players, but they&#39;d get steamrollered by the likes of Henson/Shanklin or D&#39;arcy/O&#39;Driscoll.

Not sure if others agree, but I always think one of the centres needs to be able to take a crash ball.
[/b]

oh completely. Thats why Greenwood and Tindall worked so well together back in the day.

That&#39;s a seriously lightweight three quarter line there Gavin. I know Cipriani, Geraghty and Lamb are talented players, but they&#39;d get steamrollered by the likes of Henson/Shanklin or D&#39;arcy/O&#39;Driscoll.

Not sure if others agree, but I always think one of the centres needs to be able to take a crash ball. [/b]

Yes you are completely right that my three-quater line is lightweight, but remember these guys are young, they still have years to bulk up. Look at Tody Flood, he wasn&#39;t one of the biggest players around but he has built himself up and can now compete against harsher back-lines. Perhaps instead of Ryan Lamb it would have been more sensible of me to put Tody Flood or Jamie Noon in the 13 position and bring Lamb on after 60 - 70 minutes, but I just feel that that three-quater line ooozzzesss class and with a few more pounds on them it could work.

Bullitt

03-04-08, 12:10 PM

Why the f*** would anyone play Lamb at 13?????!? o.O

Fa'atau82

03-04-08, 12:23 PM

Teh Mite, you would know i guess being a Saints fan.. how good are Ashton and Hartley? England quality?

Bullitt

03-04-08, 12:36 PM

Hartley, definately. There&#39;s not another hooker in the northern hemisphere that can hold a candle to him. In fact, I think only Smit is a better worldwide.

Ashton is work in progress but he will be the best winger in the country eventually (and one of the best in the world). He&#39;s easily the fastest in England right now, proberbly has the best sidestep also and has a great vision. A lot of which I think is coming from Spencer mentoring him, he&#39;s definately becoming "Carlosish";
Master;
http://clairej.smugmug.com/photos/227739756_qSJfB-M.jpg
Apprentice;
http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/99/99_0_1206374168.jpg

Canadian_Rugger

03-04-08, 02:40 PM

1 Sheridan

2 Hartley

3 Vickery

4 Shaw

5 Borthwick

6 Haskell

7 Worsley

8 Narraway

9 Wigglesworth

10 Cipriani

11 Strettle

12 Flood

13 Noon

14 Sackey

15 Tait

I wish strettle hadn&#39;t hurt himself at the start of the six nations because he offers so much to the england team reminds me of shane williams he just has that explosive/shifty pace and he is very unpredictable

maddison

13-05-08, 11:10 PM

What do people make Of Johno&#39;s first squad then?

Col

14-05-08, 12:37 AM

First squad? I&#39;m shocked Simpson-Daniel isn&#39;t in it, other than that it&#39;s OK. Reports suggest Simpson-Daniel is going to have a shoulder operation and may not be fit.

Where is Harry Ellis? Injured again?

Borthwick as captain is fine by me. Just hope Kennedy gets a few starts despite the captain of the side being another line-out specialist Lock.

Stevens & Shirdan should be set in stone in the fornt row, with Mears as hooker.

In the middle. Not Kay with Borthwick, lets give the youngsters a chance.

Back-row I&#39;d go for Lipman, Haskell & Easter.

Ellis & Cipriani could have provided an exciting half back pair, they are surely the future so any mistakes can be ironed out during International Challenges. But no Ellis. Wigglesworth is a solid 7/10 player, Richards less consistent. Haven&#39;t seen enough of Care to comment. Not sure who I&#39;d pick at Scrum Half.

I&#39;d go for Tait at Fullback for his potential in the position. And a back line of Sackey, Tindall, Barkley & Strettle. Ojo as an impact replacement.

Charles

14-05-08, 09:45 AM

Hartley, definately. There&#39;s not another hooker in the northern hemisphere that can hold a candle to him. In fact, I think only Smit is a better worldwide.
[/b]

I think you forgot about the REAL best hooker in the world: Mario Ledesma. He&#39;s just awesome at clermont, week in week out. Actually John Smit is now playing sometimes prop to get some game time.

danny

14-05-08, 05:02 PM

[quote]
First squad? I&#39;m shocked Simpson-Daniel isn&#39;t in it, other than that it&#39;s OK. Reports suggest Simpson-Daniel is going to have a shoulder operation and may not be fit.

Where is Harry Ellis? Injured again?

Borthwick as captain is fine by me. Just hope Kennedy gets a few starts despite the captain of the side being another line-out specialist Lock.

Stevens & Shirdan should be set in stone in the fornt row, with Mears as hooker.

In the middle. Not Kay with Borthwick, lets give the youngsters a chance.

Back-row I&#39;d go for Lipman, Haskell & Easter.

Ellis & Cipriani could have provided an exciting half back pair, they are surely the future so any mistakes can be ironed out during International Challenges. But no Ellis. Wigglesworth is a solid 7/10 player, Richards less consistent. Haven&#39;t seen enough of Care to comment. Not sure who I&#39;d pick at Scrum Half.

I`d like to see some really bold selections and really try to get amongst the All Blacks. Rees if fit at 7, Kennedy at lock,Hartley in at hooker, Haskell at 8, care at 9 and Tait at 15. What have we got to lose? The old guard have consistently proved that they are not good enough so let the rebuilding start here.What better place to start than the toughest rugby environment there is, New Zealand.

Bullitt

14-05-08, 05:05 PM

Ellis. lol.

danny

14-05-08, 05:59 PM

Ellis. lol.
[/b]
It was Col who mentioned Ellis. Not guilty!

maddison

21-05-08, 04:24 PM

Why isn&#39;t Ryan Lamb included?

The bloke is the most skillful 10 in the Premiership. He can, unlike Cips tackle. It is a total joke to leave him out!

Prestwick

21-05-08, 04:44 PM

Actually, Lamb has one of the poorer tackle rates in the Guinness Premiership.

Also, Cirpriani has scored more points than Lamb:

Cipriani (out of 21 games played): 6 Tries, 39 Conversions, 28 penalties. A total of 192 points scored over the space of 813 minutes.

Lamb (out of 18 games played): 4 Tries, 25 Conversions, 32 penalties. A total of 169 points scored over the space of 710 minutes.

Lamb would need to score 23 points to equal Cipriani over the space of three games.

Jackson (out of 18 games played): 2 Tries, 29 Conversions, 2 Drop Goals (NOW I see why he couldn&#39;t get into a New Zealand team!), 35 Penalties. A total of 179 points scored over the space of 900 minutes.

Not only has Jacko played more in those 18 games, he&#39;s scored more points and been more versatile a player than Lamb.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on the side with a couple of exceptions....and am curious to see your bench selections for a match day 22.

1) I don&#39;t think Chuter is up for it. I think Johnno will most likely go with either Mears or Hartley.
2) Not sure if Croft gets a look in quite yet as a starter. Think Nick Kennedy might get the nod ahead of him for his lineout work, but I&#39;m quite happy with Croft myself and would love to see him get the nod. Think he&#39;s a better tackler and ball carrier.
3) Think MJ will go with Barkley at 12 over Flutey, especially if his early form with Gloucester is good. Flutey is certainly a quality player and is on the bench for sure....unless maybe 13?
4) Not sure about Brown. Think he might be a bit too slow for international duty, although I like his foot and his defence. I think his selection will depend on the composition of the rest of the squad. Tait would be a strong possibility for the 15 spot if someone else plays 13, as I think he will be in the starting squad.

I&#39;m equally happy if either Geraghty or Flutey, which ever isn&#39;t in the starting 15 takes Wilko&#39;s spot. I just am pretty sure MJ will select him for the 22 to provide stability if things go awry for Cips...and so that Barkley won&#39;t have to play 10.

Sir Speedy

21-08-08, 09:06 PM

I&#39;m equally happy if either Geraghty or Flutey, which ever isn&#39;t in the starting 15 takes Wilko&#39;s spot. I just am pretty sure MJ will select him for the 22 <strike>- Just as long as he&#39;s not the one causing things to go awry for Danny (Wales v England this year; throwing the ball over Cipriani&#39;s head by a good two feet; he&#39;s not quite 8 feet tall, Jonny...) -...and so that Barkley won&#39;t have to play 10.
[/b]
...

ollybarkley

21-08-08, 09:21 PM

:lol2tn: I think we can all agree that the introduction of Wilko to the match would NOT be signalling the intention of playing dynamic, running rugby.