Oda is from Osaka? And the 4CC will be held in Osaka, right? Oh, poor Oda. He didn’t skate that bad and 4th place finish at this tough competition is pretty good.

Originally Posted by Leonardo

That is not a landing position.

Don’t just look at the landing picture. You should look at the gif first and then you compare to the landing screenshot and you’ll see that is the moment when his skate hit the ice, meaning that’s his landing. Judges and experts all count that as a skater’s landing. Then he rotated the rest of his rotation on the ice and got into a better position, which casual fans usually mistake that for the landing when it isn’t. But anything a skater does after the initial landing doesn’t count.

Oda is from Osaka? And the 4CC will be held in Osaka, right? Oh, poor Oda. He didn’t skate that bad and 4th place finish at this tough competition is pretty good.

Don’t just look at the landing picture. You should look at the gif first and then you compare to the landing screenshot and you’ll see that is the moment when his skate hit the ice, meaning that’s his landing. Judges and experts all count that as a skater’s landing. Then he rotated the rest of his rotation on the ice and got into a better position, which casual fans usually mistake that for the landing when it isn’t. But anything a skater does after the initial landing doesn’t count.

In that screenshot his blade was not hitting the ice. The slow motion video is much more clear.

I think Hanyu should take a break and continue training in Canada. The rest of them train in Japan so it makes sense for them to go to 4CC. Unless Chan and Abbott show up, it just going to be another mini national so, why not let the newer guy compete and gain experience.

The main thing that I am getting out of these videos is how difficult the jobs of the technical specialists and judges are. I do not think it is possible from the video evidence to decide whether he has touched the ice yet in #2 or not. Is he still a millimeter above the ice in that picture? The thing about his skate appearing to be higher or lower is not conclusive because the camera angle is changing slightly throughout the sequence.

I think he lands in the next frame of the gif (frame 62). This is where the first bit of snow kicks up, so he has clearly stuck the ice. In frame 62 he appears to be about 110 degrees short of full rotation. In the next frame (number 63) we see the full plume of snow that is evident in the video. At this point he is OK (about 80 degrees).

To me, the flutz call is equally borderline from the gif. I think maybe the technical specialist is right to call it e and let the judges take whatever deduction that they individually feel is appropriate.

Very, very tough job, no matter how much experience the officials have.

The main thing that I am getting out of these videos is how difficult the jobs of the technical specialists and judges are. I do not think it is possible from the video evidence to decide whether he has touched the ice yet in #2 or not. Is he still a millimeter above the ice in that picture? The thing about his skate appearing to be higher or lower is not conclusive because the camera angle is changing slightly throughout the sequence.

I think he lands in the next frame of the gif (frame 62). This is where the first bit of snow kicks up, so he has clearly stuck the ice. In frame 62 he appears to be about 110 degrees short of full rotation. In the next frame (number 63) we see the full plume of snow that is evident in the video. At this point he is OK (about 80 degrees).

To me, the flutz call is equally borderline from the gif. I think maybe the technical specialist is right to call it e and let the judges take whatever deduction that they individually feel is appropriate.

Very, very tough job, no matter how much experience the officials have.

Indeed. The most ideal thing is to strive to have good height so you can do the rotation in the air so there is no doubt.

I still think that the picture 3 (or something close to that) is when he actually lands, I don't think his skate is at the same level as picture 2. As Mathman said, this is a very hard call. But I think that in these very hard cases, the skaters should get the benefit of the doubt, especially when even on the slow motion video, the jump looks fine. The job of the technical specialist should be identifying and calling performed elements, not trying to find 5 degree under rotation to give a < call. Interesting screenshots, anyway, thank you.

Remember the skaters are supposed to rotate their jumps in the air, not on the ice.

Oh my god! This comedy show is still going on! Then if you were right my dear, neither Hanyu nor Patrick would never ever got a full credit for 3As, and no one would. Because 3.5 rotation in the AIR in 3A is only in books and never in reality. A bunch of people who actually know smth. already explained to you how things work in various threads and yet you still didn't get anything . It's fine if you don't/didn't skate or don't/didn't follow the sport well enough. What is not fine is your obsession of a stalker with the particular skater that leads you to a shameful practice of cheating on so-called "evidence" either on purpose or due to ignorance. Oh, well.

I think he lands in the next frame of the gif (frame 62). This is where the first bit of snow kicks up, so he has clearly stuck the ice. In frame 62 he appears to be about 110 degrees short of full rotation. In the next frame (number 63) we see the full plume of snow that is evident in the video. At this point he is OK (about 80 degrees).

Originally Posted by Leonardo

I still think that the picture 3 (or something close to that) is when he actually lands, I don't think his skate is at the same level as picture 2. As Mathman said, this is a very hard call. But I think that in these very hard cases, the skaters should get the benefit of the doubt, especially when even on the slow motion video, the jump looks fine. The job of the technical specialist should be identifying and calling performed elements, not trying to find 5 degree under rotation to give a < call. Interesting screenshots, anyway, thank you.

You’re welcome, Leonardo. Frame 62 is picture 3, which is 110 degrees short of full rotation. IMO he landed before this because he already kicked up quite some snow in this frame. The real landing should be when his skate inititally hit the ice. In picture 3 he kicked more snow than that. Oh well, that detail doesn’t matter now, since in frame 62 the jump was still under-rotated.

The evidences prove that the calls were right, but I understand that some posters wish the tech panel could be more lenient. I think it really depends. Takahashi for example was not given benefit of the doubt at Japanese Nationals. However, he was given benefit of the doubt at GPF while that opportunity was not given to other skaters there. It depends on the panel. As a skater you just have to do your best and don’t give the caller a chance to question your jumps.

Originally Posted by lakeside

Remember the skaters are supposed to rotate their jumps in the air, not on the ice.

Originally Posted by let’s talk

Oh my god! This comedy show is still going on! Then if you were right my dear, neither Hanyu nor Patrick would never ever got a full credit for 3As, and no one would. Because 3.5 rotation in the AIR in 3A is only in books and never in reality. A bunch of people who actually know smth. already explained to you how things work in various threads and yet you still didn't get anything . It's fine if you don't/didn't skate or don't/didn't follow the sport well enough. What is not fine is your obsession of a stalker with the particular skater that leads you to a shameful practice of cheating on so-called "evidence" either on purpose or due to ignorance. Oh, well.

Please read my original post carefully before you speak that way to me. I said “Remember the skaters are supposed to rotate their jumps in the air, not on the ice.” I did not say they have to rotate 100% of their jumps in the air. According to ISU rule, skaters don’t need 3.5 rotations in the air. As long as they rotate 3.25 rotations in the air, then their 3A’s are perfectly fine. Also for 4T, they don’t need 4 complete rotations in the air. They only need 3.75 rotations and they’re fine. What I meant was that the ISU only counts the rotations in the air, not the rotations on the ice.

Plus, if you disagree with me, then you can provide your evidence and then there can be some reasonable discussion, like how Mathman and Leonardo did. Look at Takahashi’s 4T gif again. This is his takeoff and this is his landing suggested by Mathman and Leonardo. Although I think he landed a bit before that, but from the landing picture they suggested you can see the jump was 110 degrees short of full rotation.

To me, this type of discussion demonstrates everything that is wrong with the ISU judging system. Fans pay their money to see a sporting event, but when the contest is over they do not know who skated well, who skated badly, who deserved to win or to lose. This even though they have just seen the performances live with their own eyes.

We cannot tell if a skater gave a good performance or a bad one until we consult the protocols. No, we still can't tell. We have to study game film frame by frame before we can shout Yay! or Boo!

The very worst thing that can happen at any sporting contest is that the calls of the referees and umpires overshadow the athletic performances on the field. When this happens, the event has failed. When this happens in every event, the sport has failed.

To me, this type of discussion demonstrates everything that is wrong with the ISU judging system. Fans pay their money to see a sporting event, but when the contest is over they do not know who skated well, who skated badly, who deserved to win or to lose. This even though they have just seen the performances live with their own eyes.

We cannot tell if a skater gave a good performance or a bad one until we consult the protocols. No, we still can't tell. We have to study game film frame by frame before we can shout Yay! or Boo!

The very worst thing that can happen at any sporting contest is that the calls of the referees and umpires overshadow the athletic performances on the field. When this happens, the event has failed. When this happens in every event, the sport has failed.

To me, this type of discussion demonstrates everything that is wrong with the ISU judging system. Fans pay their money to see a sporting event, but when the contest is over they do not know who skated well, who skated badly, who deserved to win or to lose. This even though they have just seen the performances live with their own eyes.

We cannot tell if a skater gave a good performance or a bad one until we consult the protocols. No, we still can't tell. We have to study game film frame by frame before we can shout Yay! or Boo!

The very worst thing that can happen at any sporting contest is that the calls of the referees and umpires overshadow the athletic performances on the field. When this happens, the event has failed. When this happens in every event, the sport has failed.

To me, under-rotation is cheating and does not show real athleticism. I never liked how Sarah Hughes cheated her jumps. It’s like in a 10,000 m running event, your rivals run 25 laps but you only run 24 laps. That’s cheating. If your rivals can rotate their jumps but you cannot, then you should not get same points as your rivals on those jumps. Otherwise it’s not fair.

Plus, I don’t think we need to look at the protocols to tell if the jumps are under-rotated or there was a wrong edge takeoff. Many times I watch the replay and immediately know that it’s a URed jump. I know some people don’t like falls, some don’t like popped jumps, others can’t stand terrible skating skills, etc. I think all these mistakes should be punished, including UR and wrong edge takeoff. JMO.