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.... once the Baby Boom Aikidoka begin to retire and/or no longer actively train...who will be taking their place? .....

The twenty-something Aikidoka. I've trained with twenty-somethings in a college club I sometimes go to -- there seem to be a lot of them, some of whom probably started in their teens. I've been to dojos with kids' classes. I'm not overly worried about it.

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How will Aikido adapt in order to attract a generation blinded by the commercial hype of the MMA and competitive sportsfighting as being "true" martial arts?

How did it adapt and change to attract previous generations blinded by karate movies and ninja movies? How did it adapt to draw people away from Kung Fu. It didn't, and yet today there are millions of people doing it. And anyone who has srufed here long enough will read posts by people who do both MMA and Aikido.

I had a reality check: Online discussions/forthings/flame wars are not likely to affect the real world, where Aikido dojos are located. If they did, we'd now be in Howard Dean's first term.

Here's a question: why is there no trapping (as in the majority of aikido waza) in MMA? Or perhaps I should ask, has anyone managed to pull off locks against a good, resisting opponent?

Is aikido just made up of low-percentage techniques? Or are there just not enough skilled aikido people trying MMA?

Trapping is very hard to do. I can teach someone to block and punch in a fairly short time. I've been training aikido on and off for years and I can't even come close to doing most of it in a sparing match. There are many reasons for this. First, most people will not commit to their strikes taking them offbalance like in the dojo, instead they throw combos with good balance, and they always retract their firsts to a good guard. Attempting to perform an aikidoish technique is going to require perfection, anything else and you are going to eat the next blow in that combo. A good cover and punch type striker is going to have much more success then someone trying to do trapping for the first few years of their training. Another problem I've noticed is that the wrist when taped and gloved is very hard to manipulate. I catch wrist locks a lot in bjj now. I spent a few weeks learning how to get them with some degree of success (about 70% of the time I go for them I get them). I use them to setup armbars, and sometimes to tap out my partner. However, I have not gotten a single wrist lock to work in MMA, even against people I catch with wrist locks in bjj constantly. Finally, due to the vunurablity when you do fail, it is better to use consistant high percentage attacks that do not leave you as bad off when they fail. For example, a good boxers guard may allow a few shots though, but it keeps the chin down and protected most of the time. Reaching from that position however exposes the head, and if you screw up, you are at a much higher risk of getting caught by a shot in the chin.

Judo is a good example. If your opponent is off balance, you are in a world of trouble in MMA. This is why wrestling take downs have become more dominate, the rules allow less risk when you fail. You know the guy can not punch you in the back of the head, and he can't knee your face with 3 points down. So you can shoot and if you screw up you are ok. Try a hip or shoulder throw and screw up, you are getting lifted slammed and pounded. Now look at most aikido throws. You are even worse off if those fail.

Of course there are always masters who can make anything work. What you are seeing is a constant change in MMA. I don't think you will see the skillsets solidify for another 25-35 years. However the level of skill will always be improving. I watch the old pride and UFC vids today and I see a crude level of skill. Then I watch good MMA guys today and I see refined skill, but still differences between camps and ideas. In another 25 years it will be like boxing, only 1 or 2 really good ways to do it. Then we can wash, rinse and repeat with the next thing.

Aikido is typically practiced at a range and within a context that requires mutual cooperation in order to foster the correct spirit and goals of aikido.

In order to achieve locks, arm bars, and what not, you have to have very good control over your opponent. Arm bars from the mount, triangle chokes, guillotines work because you achieve this dominance. Things like nikkyo, ikkyo, and shionage do not work because they are very complex and require a certain degree of either cluelessness from your opponent or a spirit of cooperation that typically is not seen in a MMA context. Again, good for learning principles that apply to the dynamic of a fight, but not a very good/efficient means for finishing your opponent.

I do get things in MMA that I say "ahhhh, aikido". I can show you how the guard applies the principles of ikkyo. I occassionally pull off a kotegaehsi on an inexperience opponent. Sankyo can be held, but because of the way you have to control the hips of your opponent, it is not good for finishing. although if you look at omoplata, it to me is a variation of sankyo albiet you control uke's hips and use your leg. I have used various nikkyo type pins to submit on the ground, but never nikkyo from a standing, traditional sense.

Aikido as practiced by most is designed to teach principles of movmement and is mostly principally correct, however we must be careful, IMO to not translate the methodology of aikido into a fighting strategy which has many facets...and yes, you do develop a game based on high percentage techniques that work for you.

Certainly you must stop whatever action you are being attacked with...and you might use some skills that would be considered gross motor skills.

You must get yourself into a secure position be it the clinch, guard, mount..what not....however, once there, I find those that have finer motor skills that have learned how to correctly align their bodies, use proper posture, timing, subtleness, finese...etc...are the ones that will do well.

Of course, at what point to you divide gross and fine? A matter of semantics I suppose.

Obviously as you get better, those fine skills seem like gross skills. I have noticed that I tend to use techniques I would of found impossible to due in drills, let alone sparing 6 months ago. "Oh, this is just a simple elevator sweep to armbar transition I picked up" sounds simple until you start explaining it and realize all the skills that need to be developed before it is simple.

Kevin, I agree with that elaboration.
They are your "foot in the door" that allows you to deal with the immediacy of the confrontation and to gain control of it. Once in control, you're in a better position to pull out more refined movement if it is called for in the particular situation.

I've yet to see someone who can consistently (i.e. through tactical skill, not luck) finesse an initial move requiring fine motor skills in the beginning of a confrontation.

I find myself occassionally watching MMA and I applaud the atheleticism and skill of many of the "fighters". However, I also have interacted with several practicioners of MMA and most of these occurences have left a bad taste in my mouth--the majority of them simply have no respect for Aikido. I often have tried to explain the philosophical aspects of our wonderful art and demonstrate the coveted "street effectiveness" with no avail. I concur with other members of this forum...in the future Aikido will attract an intellectual, and increasingly philisophical portion of martial artists.

Thank you very much for the replies! This is more than I'd even hoped for - great to hear such detail from someone with firsthand experience in both MMA and aikido. (What is your experience with both, by the way, if I could ask?) I do have some further questions, if you'll humor me.

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Don Magee wrote:

First, most people will not commit to their strikes taking them offbalance like in the dojo, instead they throw combos with good balance, and they always retract their firsts to a good guard.

I admit I'm a little confused by this. In my experience, a good uke strikes in such a way that they could hit or miss and in neither case be off-balance. Rather, nage does something (blocks, deflects, evades, etc.) that makes uke unwillingly lose balance; they then try to regain it over the course of the technique, while nage keeps them moving with tai sabaki and atemi. (Although I have seen a technique or two that seems to be versus a "suicide attack" where uke -does- throw him or herself off balance with the force of the strike. But that's the exception.)

I've seen aikido waza where nage uses an irimi movement, coupled with a sort of outside 'guarding block' (rather than deflecting block) to perform something essentially similar to shomenuchi iriminage. Ever tried this sort of thing? What makes it hard in practice?

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Don Magee wrote:

Another problem I've noticed is that the wrist when taped and gloved is very hard to manipulate. I catch wrist locks a lot in bjj now. [...] However, I have not gotten a single wrist lock to work in MMA, even against people I catch with wrist locks in bjj constantly.

Interesting. Just to clarify: do you think they work better in BJJ because of the lack of gloves/tape? Despite not being able to use atemi in BJJ?

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Don Magee wrote:

Reaching from that position however exposes the head, and if you screw up, you are at a much higher risk of getting caught by a shot in the chin.

I'm trying to visualize this. What sorts of aikido techniques require you to "reach"?

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Don Magee wrote:

Judo is a good example. If your opponent is off balance, you are in a world of trouble in MMA. This is why wrestling take downs have become more dominate, the rules allow less risk when you fail.

"If your opponent is off balance, you are in a world of trouble in MMA." I'm guessing that's a typo, but I'm having some trouble figuring out what you meant to type.

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Don Magee wrote:

You know the guy can not punch you in the back of the head, and he can't knee your face with 3 points down. So you can shoot and if you screw up you are ok. Try a hip or shoulder throw and screw up, you are getting lifted slammed and pounded. Now look at most aikido throws. You are even worse off if those fail.

That sounds very reasonable. Have you ever tried casual sparring with those rules relaxed? Perhaps substituting hand-taps for punches or downward elbows to the back of the head or neck? If you have tried something like that, did it significantly drop the "success rate" or "percentage" of wrestling-style takedowns?

Thanks to you as well, Kevin. I'll ask a few follow-up questions of you as well, if it's okay. It's really made my day to get this kind of info.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Things like nikkyo, ikkyo, and shionage do not work because they are very complex and require a certain degree of either cluelessness from your opponent or a spirit of cooperation that typically is not seen in a MMA context.

and

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Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Again, good for learning principles that apply to the dynamic of a fight, but not a very good/efficient means for finishing your opponent.

Can a martial art really have techniques that "require cooperation"? Drills or principle-based exercises, maybe, like kokyu dosa. Still, it seems like aikido techniques should have a purpose beyond just "principle exercises".

I noticed that a couple times, you used terms like "as practiced by most" and "typically". This to me brings up the question of styles of aikido. Which style do you practice? (Both of you, I guess?) Do you think that pre-war style practice makes one better able to actually implement waza as "viable takedowns" rather than "principle exercises"?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote:

I have used various nikkyo type pins to submit on the ground,

Interesting. When do these generally make sense for you? It seems like they're more useful when you've just brought someone down with ikkyo or nikkyo; I guess you could also sweep the arm up or something.

You know the guy can not punch you in the back of the head, and he can't knee your face with 3 points down.

One other question, Don. Upon reflection, it seems like someone going in for a leg-grabbing takedown or whatever would only have two points down (their legs/feet). Do people often put one hand down just to gain rule protection from knees, or something?

You may have to drill down a bit however Jason has adapted many Aikido techniques into his style. I by the way cross train in MMA and Submission wrestling which I still find very beneficial to our style of Aikido and quite fun even at my "old" age which is 46.

I am a big fan of Jason's and I can't wait to see where he progresses to.

I admit I'm a little confused by this. In my experience, a good uke strikes in such a way that they could hit or miss and in neither case be off-balance. Rather, nage does something (blocks, deflects, evades, etc.) that makes uke unwillingly lose balance; they then try to regain it over the course of the technique, while nage keeps them moving with tai sabaki and atemi. (Although I have seen a technique or two that seems to be versus a "suicide attack" where uke -does- throw him or herself off balance with the force of the strike. But that's the exception.)

Perhaps off balance is a bad way to put it. To put it bluntly they are punching incorrectly with poor form that lends itself to getting tossed. A real striker strikes with good footwork, at a proper distance (which is not the distance an aikidoka wants you to strike at), and throw combos. None of that happens in most aikido drills I have experienced nor seen online. Watch a video of a boxer doing drills, watch his footwork, hands, etc. Then watch an aikidoka punching. I think the difference is night and day.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

I've seen aikido waza where nage uses an irimi movement, coupled with a sort of outside 'guarding block' (rather than deflecting block) to perform something essentially similar to shomenuchi iriminage. Ever tried this sort of thing? What makes it hard in practice?

That sounds like a gross muscle movement. I do similar things all the time to get to the clinch. I just go for easy takedowns that have a higher percentage chance of me being in a good position on the ground so I can strike. If I was in a street fight, I might want to remain standing and probably would not be doing takedowns that bring me to the ground as well. Lucky for me, I do not street fight.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

Interesting. Just to clarify: do you think they work better in BJJ because of the lack of gloves/tape? Despite not being able to use atemi in BJJ?

Exactly, the gloves prevent pressure and control of the wrist. In fact I had one guy in a wrist lock from omaplata in a mma sparing match. I had tons of pressure on his wrist, but he would not tap. He said it hurt mildly. Later I did the same submission to him in a pure bjj situation, he tapped immediately and vocally.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

I'm trying to visualize this. What sorts of aikido techniques require you to "reach"?

By reach I mean your hands are not guarding your face. A boxer can block and strike without letting his guard down. Aikido techniques typically a) do not use the guard and b) require you to control a limb. Both of these things are done in potential striking range. MMA practitioners usually move into a tight clinch before attempting throws, this limits striking ability. I am aware that proper body movement would limit striking ability with aikido moves, however in practice this is very hard to do well.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

"If your opponent is off balance, you are in a world of trouble in MMA." I'm guessing that's a typo, but I'm having some trouble figuring out what you meant to type.

This should be if your opponent is not off balance. Sorry I typoed. See with a judo or aikido style throw, you must take balance asap or you are at great risk. (think about Ippon seonage without proper kauzshi). With the clinch throw wrestling style, such as single legs from the clinch and body locks, you can work the position, then take the balance while you are safe. Aikido techniques require you to have the balance even sooner then judo, and judo is hard to do in MMA. Imagine you trap a hand and attempt an aikido technique, typically both your hands are now not in front of your face, therefor your chin is exposed, if you do not have proper kazushi the moment you grab the hand, you are going to eat a punch, and the MMA guy is ok with taking one to really hit you. Not only that, but attempting to grapple at that range will not stop him from just clinching and dragging you down. Have you done aikido drills where someone punches at you then trys to just grab on and drag you down while you attempt an aikido technique? It is very hard to keep proper distance with someone determined to clinch with you.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

That sounds very reasonable. Have you ever tried casual sparring with those rules relaxed? Perhaps substituting hand-taps for punches or downward elbows to the back of the head or neck? If you have tried something like that, did it significantly drop the "success rate" or "percentage" of wrestling-style takedowns?

I have done some sparing that allowed light slaps on shots, and some sparing that allowed full blow elbows. In both cases I was hit, in both cases I was not injured. However that is not my point. My point is that if you fail the takedown, you are on all fours and in a better position then if you fail an ippon seonage, or any other standing throw. With aikido throws that fail you are very open to strikes, with judo throws that fail, you just gave your back standing. With single and double legs, you are turtled and safe from kicks, most punches, etc and have an easier time to recover. Of course this is bad for the street where you would get head stomped.

One other question, Don. Upon reflection, it seems like someone going in for a leg-grabbing takedown or whatever would only have two points down (their legs/feet). Do people often put one hand down just to gain rule protection from knees, or something?

Actually, its the other way around, the person getting taken down is afraid to knee because he is unsure of if they are 3 point or 2 point.

But I do see more and more people like randy coulture using 3 point to protect himself.

im just going to say that i am for one a "pimply faced teenager" and i love the traditional, not all that B.S. in the "UFC". i believe a master martial artist could woop any of those jocks. not saying that we should do such a thing. just that i believe it absolutely possible. and i would love (in my present state of hostility; im not usually so hostile) for any of those guys to come try to bring me down for my belief and trust in the tradition of the martial arts. i would personally kick him in the face. and or put a sankyo on him till he cried.

i think that aikido is so unafective to all those who post things saying that "it doesnt work in a sparring match" is for this reason. AIKIDO ISNT FOR SPARRING!!!! ITS FOR SELF-DEFENSE!!!! when ur in a fight ur not going to kick him lightly in the chest and then come in for a punch combo that grazes his face and chest! you are going to give a full-fledged attack! ur not going to panzi around it like in the fake fights of sparring. in a real life self defense situation you are going to nail him in the jaw, stunning him at the least, and then what can u do? put a lock on him, throw him, do something! thats what an utemi is for! so seriously, stop talking about the "unafective" when ur not even putting it to a real test!

and sorry for blowing up. but i cant tell u how many people have posted the same thing over and over and over saying how aikido sucks or doesnt work. it just pisses me off.

You obviously have not done any MMA sparing. It is not light contact. It is not contrived or fake. You can do everything you want to do except for gouge eyes, fish hook, strike the back of the head, strike the groin, and grab less then 3 fingers or toes.

I have trained in aikido, and judo, and boxing, and bjj, and tkd, and krav maga, and a few other things. So I have been on both sides of the fence. I can tell MMA sparing is going to be more real then anything you can contrive in a non-sparing situation. I can also tell you it is nothing like what you are thinking it is. To think the majority of us could even have a prayer at stopping someone at the top levels of MMA is just silly. If we could, we could be making millions and changing the face of martial arts. It is simply not realistic. Unless you are going at him with a gun.

You are young, so it is ok to have dreams. But I think you owe it to yourself to think critically internally as well as externally. If it is so easy, go put it to the test. Speculation solves nothing. I have tried my hardest to utilize aikido and mostly failed. I talk to my aikido instructor, he gives me pointers and ideas, I again play with it. I put my money where my mouth is. If I think something is fake, and I have the means to test it, then I test it. I suggest if you are serious about developing real skill that you consider doing the same.

I agree that aikido is not designed for sparing. However the majority of aikido is legal in MMA. It is no different then judo, bjj, etc in this regard. I think aikido was designed to deal with attacks that were common in an older stricter culture. In situations where the attacker felt he would win in a single blow. This is no longer the case today. That does not mean aikido does not work, it just means making it work is a lot harder. Without that extra effort, it looks like poor juijitsu or bad judo.

Thanks, Don. I'm going to keep working at this myself, though since I'm at such a lower experience level, I appreciate the chance to "cheat" a bit and just ask someone who's been working at it longer. For my part, I wonder if perhaps there's some way to exploit tenkan/irimi in the clinch and pre-clinch stages. I have no clue about boxing or other MMA striking, though; I'm mostly thinking from a grappling perspective. Like, "aikido vs. judo". In theory, the aikido person wants to neutralize the judo person's attempt to close up and put hands on shoulders...or so it seems.

William -- I have heard of Jason DeLucia, but it doesn't sound like he's really managed to employ aikido techniques in the ring. If you have some video evidence to the contrary, I'd be fascinated to see it.

Morgan -- MMA fighters work very hard, using well-tested techniques optimized in the here-and-now for sportfighting. Now, are aikidoka also cultivating some sort of martial skill? I don't know, and that's part of what I'm trying to figure out. (I think I'll start a post on the "context" of aikido shortly.) But for example, Gozo Shioda remarked that in his view, most boxers would beat most aikidoka. And those are hardcore early days aikidoka, who often had a well-rounded martial background. His reason? Boxers have more practice with live timing. I am wondering what Shioda felt the training solution might be.

personaly, i dont agree with most aikidoka being beaten by most boxers. because in my experience most people have taken other martial arts before aikido. i took taekwondo before aikido, my sensei took kempo for 25 years before taking aikido, and so has every other person in my aikido school. so maybe thats what aikido is lacking. real time "get out of the way" kinda stuff. but using aikido in conjunction with the speed u have gained in TKD or kempo or karate, you could beat a boxer.

Aww man the "Aikido fighting effectiveness" part this thread is so sad. I truly feel for some of you folks. Especially the ones who are giving advice as to why Aikido "can't" work in certain situations after having tried so hard cross training etc. to get things to work. Of course for those who think it can work, don't believe the naysayers for a second, it isn't as hard as most will have you think, but the key is in training smart, not hard or long.

Regarding the OP I think it is good that MMA is here and gives some people an option towards training, fitness and competition if they so desire. It may be the closest thing to "real" empty handed fighting so far and it gives those who need it a creative outlet for releasing pent up energy. I don't however see MMA as being any sort of challenge to Aikido's popularity. People will be attracted to what they like at the time. At some point in life I may feel like buying a Ferrari at another stage I'd want a Rolls Royce. One cannot be said to be better than the other since they address different needs, tastes and desires. In their fundamental role however they are the same, they get you from one point to the next.

A good thing about MMA also is that it has a lot of folks in TMA questioning their training paradigms especially in the area of "fighting" ability. The result has been many TMA folks cross training in MMA and similar methods or flat out leaving TMA and taking up MMA.

The interesting thing that I have found, is that those TMA-ists who cross train but use their experiences to go deeper and train smarter in their traditional arts tend to get breakthroughs and achieve a level of skill in their traditional methods that will never be enjoyed by those who either find the challenge too difficult to get better at their TMA to match the MMA skillsets or leave TMA to join MMA totally to "find what is missing" in their training.

It is no doubt that studying MMA will get one some great practice in some very effective skillsets but I often wonder why people who have done MMA and competed for extensive periods in Judo etc. come to my Aikido class still looking for "that which is missing".

Hmm. Interesting, Larry. I do think that MMA contact will improve one's aikido methodology. But what I can't shake is the argument from the MMA types that really, the take-home lesson should be, "Aikido doesn't work; stop doing it!"

As an aside, I'd invite people here to take a look at this thread I just started, on just what sorts of rulesets aikido might work well in: