Over the weekend, attorney Robert Barnes penned a thorough takedown of President Barack Obama and his administration, based on reports that they wiretapped Trump Tower before November’s election. Barnes said that if reports are accurate, the administration could have violated the law by misusing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), as well as committing perjury before the FISA court, and illegally revealing information. Monday afternoon, Dan Abrams grilled Barnes about this in a contentious debate on the LawNewz Network.

Abrams called out Barnes for making bold accusations based on what he considers mere speculation, and questioned the wisdom behind Barnes’ piece. “Isn’t it then almost reckless for you to speculate about this with zero evidence, and honestly, reckless of us to have published this without any evidence at all?”

Barnes backed up his statements, saying he’s basing his assertions on reports by The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and Heat Street, but acknowledged that “at this stage it is speculative,” as there is currently no confirmation of the reports. Still, he stood behind his published statements, going toe to toe with Abrams. Check it out in the video above.