In debate most people are smart enough to understand that you can say one PART of what a person said is wrong without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My issue is with that one statement, which is easily shown as wrong. In order to say I am wrong you must defend the statement "It doesn't pay to waste socket bonuses to gem pure crit since exp/hit are the highest value stats (up until cap), with proper stat weights though "

If that statement is correct, defend it. If it's not, admit you are wrong (which you are) and move one.

Don't point to other parts which I don't have an issue with and say "HUR DUR BUT THESE ARE TRUE."

That is stupid.

Logic isn't hard people. It just requires you to not be stupid, and to not jump to stupid conclusions about what you think other people are saying.

From my first few original posts I blatantly and quite clearly said "These are your words. "It doesn't pay to waste socket bonuses to gem pure crit since exp/hit are the highest value stats"

This is not always true."

My statement is correct. It is not always true. The rest of his post I don't have an issue with. If I did, I would have shown how it were wrong. It isn't. But the blanket statement made is patently false. I'm not sure how people can't see this.

He provided the general gemming priorities for each socket colour (which are the accepted "general" gemming strategies)
He then said that it doesn't pay to ignore socket bonuses and just blindly gem crit (yes, I'm paraphrasing a bit).
He then qualifies that statement by explaining that AMR, with appropriate stat weights, would identify which socket bonuses are worth gemming for and which ones are not.

None of this is wrong. When you twist his words and quote them out of context or only a fragment of his statement however, sure, they appear to be incorrect. I'll give you the fact that the syntax and grammar in his original response was less than perfect, but it's certainly no reason to jump down his throat, persist in ignoring any attempts to explain how he actually is not wrong, and then to start calling anyone who doesn't agree with your understanding of logic, "stupid". I'd hardly call that productive...

Regardless though, I hope the OP has his answer by now (plug your character into SimC, otherwise no one can give you an accurate stat weight breakdown).

He provided the general gemming priorities for each socket colour (which are the accepted "general" gemming strategies)
He then said that it doesn't pay to ignore socket bonuses and just blindly gem crit (yes, I'm paraphrasing a bit).
He then qualifies that statement by explaining that AMR, with appropriate stat weights, would identify which socket bonuses are worth gemming for and which ones are not.

None of this is wrong. When you twist his words and quote them out of context or only a fragment of his statement however, sure, they appear to be incorrect. I'll give you the fact that the syntax and grammar in his original response was less than perfect, but it's certainly no reason to jump down his throat, persist in ignoring any attempts to explain how he actually is not wrong, and then to start calling anyone who doesn't agree with your understanding of logic, "stupid". I'd hardly call that productive...

Regardless though, I hope the OP has his answer by now (plug your character into SimC, otherwise no one can give you an accurate stat weight breakdown).

Honestly, I don't see any of that as being relevant. My issue has always been with the one false statement. People keep defending it, saying its not wrong, when it clearly is.

People like you are the issue. You can't see that the contention is with one false statement, not the post as a whole, so you keep defending things which aren't relevant for no good reason.

Honestly, like I said, logic isn't hard, but most people are stupid.

Oh, lastly, there is no such thing as "your" logic. Logic is. Unless you're using it in context of counter example or perhaps a counter factual. Which you aren't.

The right way to answer would be there is no hard and fast rule on what is worth gemming and what is worth meeting, since stat weights vary so wildly. You can get a general, not min/maxed answer by saying yellows-crit, reds exp/crit as long as you get at least ~75% of the expertise to reforge into mastery, and ignore blues except if you have the helm off galakras, but that won't get you the BEST results, just decent ones.

Note: as proof, I never actually called anyone stupid. I made a claim about the intelligence of the general population, not aimed at anyone. If you took offense, it's because you were not logical, and read into the statement. In that case, the claim may/may not apply to you.

Explain me how I could improve your gear with the defaults weights then.

because default weights are wrong?

I still don't know why you're acting so arrogantly, the screenshot I linked is there to help you, since you can't realise that your gear can be optimized even more.

i said thanks for saying something, so i could recheck with actual stat weights relative to me... dat arrogance :S

Anyway, since people don't really think outside of simc, I'll give you something to think about.
Compare the enrage uptime on simc and on every single log of yours. Maybe you can conclude something out of it and the real weight of crit.

your right, i dont get 96% enrage uptime, so instead i use good instead of elite on simc options...

The right way to answer would be there is no hard and fast rule on what is worth gemming and what is worth meeting, since stat weights vary so wildly. You can get a general, not min/maxed answer by saying yellows-crit, reds exp/crit as long as you get at least ~75% of the expertise to reforge into mastery, and ignore blues except if you have the helm off galakras, but that won't get you the BEST results, just decent ones.

Note: as proof, I never actually called anyone stupid. I made a claim about the intelligence of the general population, not aimed at anyone. If you took offense, it's because you were not logical, and read into the statement. In that case, the claim may/may not apply to you.

None of that is relevant? The fact that you ignore the qualifying part of his statement and keep insisting that he's wrong isn't relevant? "People like me" aren't the issue, since I can very clearly see that your contention is with "part" of his statement, taken out of context and without the supporting statement. It's no different than if I said "eggs are white, except when they're brown, or speckled" and then you would jump in and start blaring that "you're wrong, because eggs aren't always white!" (with some generalisations about how "logic isn't hard and "people are stupid" tossed in for flavour)

I still don't see how he's wrong (because he's right). Again, he said that you shouldn't just blindly gem crit while ignoring socket bonuses but using AMR will tell you what ones to skip.

As for the calling people stupid part; you're attempting to be sly about calling people who don't agree with you stupid. It's not exactly difficult to see what you're doing...

Regardless though, this is pointless. You're wrong, you seem intent to dig your heels in, ignore any counter arguments clearly explaining why and are resorting to childish insults (while attempting to be subtle about it). You can call this a "win", since that seems to be what your goal is, but I'm done.

Slowly, my character is Tyranoid khaz'goroth mastery is >crit for me now due to about 45% crit buffed. Dont get me wrong im not at the point of gemming mastery though. Not yet anyway The "enrage" mastery mechanic gives me more dps then the crit mechanic. This is why personal stat weights are preferable above 550 ilvl

Alright, let's try a different approach.
If this was possible for your character, would it be an upgrade?

I'm pretty sure that 1 crit > 1 str/mastery, even for the wondermaker aka simc.
But ignore stat weights, think for yourself. I honestly wanna read what you have to say.

if i were to ignore stat weights my answer would be 'crit is good', which isnt wrong usually but in this case it is,
even if i nerf my mastery weight by 0.2 and buff my crit weight by 0.25 i still get optimizations vastly different to yours.
honestly it looks to me like amr default doesnt value overcap hit anywhere near enough, let alone mastery

Slowly, my character is Tyranoid khaz'goroth mastery is >crit for me now due to about 45% crit buffed. Dont get me wrong im not at the point of gemming mastery though. Not yet anyway The "enrage" mastery mechanic gives me more dps then the crit mechanic. This is why personal stat weights are preferable above 550 ilvl

Yeah, I was wrong when I said it was valid for every warrior between 550-BiS ilvl.
Apart from that, the upgrades I suggested were done with default weights and they are in fact an upgrade for him.

I guess it's hard to accept that just because they are default, they actually provide more dps than simc'd ones.
I'm done with this thread, it has already gone off topic anyway.

Guys, it's the second time today that a "I have a question" thread becomes a battleground over a useless point and derails from the question.

Bigbazz's statement could have been formulated better (like "It doesn't always pay to gem pure crit") and that would have prevented the whole "debate".
Still, the purpose of this forum is to have interesting and constructive discussions; picking fight and calling out someone because of his grammar (that's close to what happened here) is forbidden.

Anyway, the subject is still interesting, so please, stay on topic and keep discussing.

AMR has a use. If used as Collision posted, can eliminate a ton of guesswork and save a lot of time/gold. Sure, you can use spreadsheets or a calculator, but when I get a new piece of gear, I equip it, log out and in, import my char/sim and plug the values into AMR. It is very convenient. If you don't like it, fine As for me, I will sim and customize my weights and will be reforged/gemmed perfectly.

Yeah, I was wrong when I said it was valid for every warrior between 550-BiS ilvl.
Apart from that, the upgrades I suggested were done with default weights and they are in fact an upgrade for him.

I guess it's hard to accept that just because they are default, they actually provide more dps than simc'd ones.
I'm done with this thread, it has already gone off topic anyway.

you really cant see how wrong following default weights on amr is?
following amr without using personal simmed weights is like asking sex advice from a 5 year old while everyone else in the room is a porn star...

Guys, it's the second time today that a "I have a question" thread becomes a battleground over a useless point and derails from the question.

Bigbazz's statement could have been formulated better (like "It doesn't always pay to gem pure crit") and that would have prevented the whole "debate".
Still, the purpose of this forum is to have interesting and constructive discussions; picking fight and calling out someone because of his grammar (that's close to what happened here) is forbidden.

Anyway, the subject is still interesting, so please, stay on topic and keep discussing.

You are right I could have said "It doesn't always pay to gem pure crit" to avoid the arguement but that would imply to me that the standard or generally better method is to ignore socket bonuses, where as in most cases in my experience the numbers point towards taking the socket bonuses. So then maybe more accurate would be "It does not always pay to take socket bonuses", but then given the post I was replying to that still would not be appropriate.

Considering that I covered my original statement by explaining/expanding on my reasoning directly after I think it fits fine. The start of the post is to imply to the OP that what he is doing by blindly ignoring socket bonuses is not optimal, the rest of the post is addressing the issue that what I said could be taken out of context by stating to him how he should go about deciding which socket bonuses to ignore and which to take.

The issue with Dark is that he isn't reading the post as a whole but as a number of small quotes that he can exploit or dismiss to his advantage, he does not care about the context in which my post was directed at the OP or the relevance of what I was saying. Dark is only here to pick arguements with people and prove to himself that he's right, which is why he will nit pick to the very end and selectively read/quote parts of the posts he is replying to in order to make himself think he is right.

Slowly, my character is Tyranoid khaz'goroth mastery is >crit for me now due to about 45% crit buffed. Dont get me wrong im not at the point of gemming mastery though. Not yet anyway The "enrage" mastery mechanic gives me more dps then the crit mechanic. This is why personal stat weights are preferable above 550 ilvl

Be careful with the stat weights when simming, as while adding +1000 mastery may be better than +1000 crit, but adding +500 crit is probably still better than +500 mastery.

Reforge plots are the best way to tell where the point of inflection is.

Congratulations you are now in possession of a tool that is superior to AMR.

Their default weights are meh but if you use custom weights and approach it w/ a pinch of salt (Some pretty glaring errors can occur) you'll be alright.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Bigbazz

You are right I could have said "It doesn't always pay to gem pure crit" to avoid the arguement but that would imply to me that the standard or generally better method is to ignore socket bonuses, where as in most cases in my experience the numbers point towards taking the socket bonuses. So then maybe more accurate would be "It does not always pay to take socket bonuses", but then given the post I was replying to that still would not be appropriate.

Considering that I covered my original statement by explaining/expanding on my reasoning directly after I think it fits fine. The start of the post is to imply to the OP that what he is doing by blindly ignoring socket bonuses is not optimal, the rest of the post is addressing the issue that what I said could be taken out of context by stating to him how he should go about deciding which socket bonuses to ignore and which to take.

The issue with Dark is that he isn't reading the post as a whole but as a number of small quotes that he can exploit or dismiss to his advantage, he does not care about the context in which my post was directed at the OP or the relevance of what I was saying. Dark is only here to pick arguements with people and prove to himself that he's right, which is why he will nit pick to the very end and selectively read/quote parts of the posts he is replying to in order to make himself think he is right.

Like I said, my only issue is with the one statement. Nothing more. We've already shown that that statement is false, so I have no further issue with it. It can be dropped now. Whether it was worded poorly and you meant something else, or the statement was just wrong doesn't matter anymore.

The reason why people gem exp/crit and hit/crit (most of the time) is that you are effectively gemming mastery/crit when doing this.

Any extra expertise that is added to your gear via gemming means that you need to remove that amount of expertise from reforging, and as we already have crit on everything, it is eventually reforged into mastery via the 5-10 items that you reforge to get back to expertise cap.

Generally with gemming, I'll reforge all the expertise off my gear, then put exp/crit in every red socket until I fall somewhere between 2545-2600. Even with the "Wasted" overcap expertise up to 2600, it will still be slightly better than ignoring that socket in most cases.

When it comes to weird stat bonuses on a socket, such as +60 haste, unfortunately it will require knowledge of your characters stat values. Crit/mastery vary way too much depending on trinkets, tier bonuses and weapons to tell you an exact answer.

If you plug your stat values from simcraft into AMR (Don't use the import function on simcraft, it's kinda buggy sometimes), AMR's gear optimizer is actually pretty damn good about getting the best gemming solution for you, if you don't feel like wasting a bunch of gold or time.

This is how I do it:

1: Download simcraft: https://code.google.com/p/simulation...downloads/list
2: Extract, run the simulationcraft.exe file
3: Import your character
4: Use these settings:
Make sure to set "Threads" to the amount of cores on your computer, unless you're doing other stuff. I have 4 cores, and I generally always set it to 2 threads because it will use every ounce of cpu processing power if it is set to 4, and I like to browse the internet and such while it's running. But If I'm running something overnight while I'm sleeping, I'll set it at 4.
Weapon dps isn't important enough to simulate, simply because higher ilevel weapons will almost ALWAYS win out, unless you're comparing agility vs str weapons.
5: Click Simulate!

Wait anywhere from 5-10 minutes, computer speed dependent.

It'll pop up something like this: (I cheated and did 10k iterations just as an example.)

** IMPORTANT** If you are overcap on expertise/hit (anything over 8%) the values for "Exp" and "Hit" will be wrong in your simulation. The simulation takes your stats, subtracts 1000 from them, and then finds out how much dps you lose from it. Under-cap expertise and hit are by far the most important stats, so if you're in doubt, just put them as the values listed here as they will not be too far off anyway.

Then you'll plug in the numbers into the edit function on AMR like this

Just leave AMR's default value for weapons on there, it doesn't change much from person to person.

I've tried this and got about 700 dps higher sims My question is AMR is telling me to gem all crit (mostly with 1 green and 1 red gem @ 569 ilvl). Should I gem the red sockets with crafty gems and then sim to get my stat weights or is just because my ilvl isn't in the high 570's?