Being at the throne and SEEING the throne completely are two different things. How is it that the Light BLINDED Paul? Did you ever wonder how light can cause people to see, yet it can also BLIND and that it takes "three days" to see again? Why do you suppose Christ told the disciples that he had many things to share (which were TRUTHS) yet they could not yet bear it?

The completion is the maturity that we seek, which is why Paul said he wasn't "already perfect," but still ran the race.

Exactly. Let us GO ON to perfection. How are just men made perfect? Who are the clay made pots? How are they justified? "Whoever is dead is freed from sin." Let us therefore have a renewing of the mind daily.

Phillipians 3:8-21Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (teleioō - matured/complete): but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (teleios- mature/complete) , be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Nevertheless, whereto (whatever) we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If you understand the difference in the two manifestations of the promise, the downpayment/earnest, and the redemption of the purchased possession, you will understand that verse perfectly.

We are made complete, yet NOT yet already complete.We have attained the resurrection of the dead, yet NOT attained the resurrection of the dead and whatever we have attained we walk by the same rule.

And those of Paul's likeness, "as many as have been made perfect" be THUS minded. How minded? Those who are complete, must understand that they are not yet complete, and must press forward.

I agree that 'perfect' is more along the lines of mature, rather than without blemish or never missing the mark. Seriously, does any human being never, ever, miss the mark in any minute iota? I don't believe so, not this side of the resurrection. All things are BECOMING new. I believe Paul continued to see through the glass darkly, and that he continued to miss the mark of what he (spiritually) desired to do. I think he was maturing, and God's grace was sufficient...some describe it as "when God looks at us, He sees the blood of His Son"...what do you think of that concept? Not that we're "perfect" in terms of how we may define that in our everyday vernacular, but that the perfect grace and blood of our Savior covers us...as He is daily bringing us more into His maturity (perfection)...If perfection means anything more than maturity, then I think we could only be seen that way because God chooses to based on the sufficiency of the covering of His Son upon us.

IMO, if one were absolutely perfect, they'd never say a cross word, never have an unkind thought, etc. What I believe, is often when we think we're on top of things, others sometimes can just stand back, watch us, and shake their heads...wondering why we can't see all our own shortcomings .

Reminds me of the old bumper sticker "Christians [believers] aren't perfect [literal sense of the word], just forgiven".

"...in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13)

What do you think is the difference between holding fast and not losing a crown (written to the church in Philadelphia) and us as New Covenant believers being sealed and guaranteed our inheritance by the Holy Spirit? Wonder how these two things fit together/reconcile? They must somehow, I'm just certainly no expert on Revelation...(I'm still trying to figure out which parts/how much is literal/spiritual, future/present/past, etc. )

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Maybe so, Molly. And BServ, I think you're right...who, and what...who's sealed vs. who's holding fast, and what are they holding fast to and what is sealed in them....I'm thinking at least in part it may have something to do with rewards/position (crowns/rewards) vs. salvation/inheritance of ultimate reconciliation (sealed). Not sure we can just lump it all together to mean the same thing(s).

When my daughter was about 3, I picked her up out of the car while she was sleeping, and carried her to the front door of the house. In a sleepy little voice, she said "I don't know if I can hold on". I gently said to her, "you don't have to hold on to me. I'm holding on to you".

It that's a funny little comment, thanks, it's cute. If it's sarcasm, then what do you think about the concept? Do you think it's scriptural? Do you think you have to cling to Jesus with YOUR strength or He'll let you go; or aren't you the child that has not enough strength and only the Father's love, grace, and strength is sufficient to sustain you? Even Him that enables your obedience, your faith to believe, your endurance to the end?

There's a bunch of rightly divided scripture that, IMO, says that's the case. "Jabcat 1:1" as you call it is a mere sumarization. And I think a very nice little picture of our Father's love for His children. "..nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:39)

OK good. Sometimes on these boards it's hard to tell intent, when it's just writing in black and white. I'm (hopefully) learning to be careful and give the benefit of the doubt before I know for sure. Not always the best at it.

P.S. I've tried to be good enough to save myself...for many years...and it didn't work, I failed miserably. I have to look to my Author and Finisher of my salvation .

I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself. We were talking about holding on, which I personally find pretty easy to do when you're going under for the third time--which is maybe why we should count it all joy.

Deuteronomy 4:4But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.