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Color Gurus, Help Please? Dun / Black Question?

This horse has always been considered grulla. He was born light and darkened over the years. He has been color tested, is Ee for black and aa for agouti. He is nn for cream, silver, champagne and pearl.

Can a true black be born light and darken over the years? This is not a foal coat thing, he took years to get this dark.

He comes from a line known for producing duns. His new owner had him color tested, but not for the dun gene. Which I am thinking now, is a separate test. His new owner made the comment that there is no dun in his color testing results.

He has produced numerous dun offspring.

This has come up in discussion in a group that is seeking samples from known duns. South Africa is soliciting samples for the National Genetics Institute to develop a Dun Zygosity test.

I think the best rule for coat color when Appys are involved is "all bets are off." I learned that when my supposedly snowcap mare developed spots at the age of 8, LOL.

My few spot is doing the same thing. She started at about 9 (she's 11 now) and has developed black or red "ticking" every where she has dark skin. It hasn't effected her "snow cap blanket" (pink skin) or her four stockings (also pink skin). The few spots that she has had her whole life and her lightening marks haven't changed either... I'd love to see pictures of your mare!

But if the color results only list what you listed, then Dun wasn't tested for

Do you have/can you get any pictures showing his spine?

Irritatingly, in Appaloosas, that is not necessarily going to be of help if they have a large blanket or are a snowcap or fewspot Unless by some luck some of the dorsal stripe is visible (sometimes just a few hairs on the white) or there is a spot or spots running along the spine which would show the dorsal stripe running through them. It's usually visible in the tail more than the spine on Appaloosas with lots of white in that area. Interestingly, the dorsal running through the tail tends to turn completely white over time, when the horse hits 5 or 6 years old i.e. roans out.

He doesn't look grulla at all to me in either photo, but if he's produced dun on non-dun mares, then he has to have that, provided those foals are true, line-backed duns.

Perhaps he wasn't tested for dun because Animal Genetics was used for the testing? They do not appear to run dun. Davis does, though.

Not your common, typical grulla no. More what they call Lobo Dun, or dark grulla. Dun is not a TB colour, so having produced duns out of TB mares, it would seem in all likelihood he is dun. It's extremely prevalent and common in the line.

This is a full sister to the above mare. As she is aging, I believe that she too is grulla. But I think, she is a lobo grulla, like her father. Being a dark color, it is harder to see a dorsal stripe or barring. But, she is showing a distinct continued dorsal stripe through her tail in white. Other duns from this breeding program show this.

We get the benefit of seeing the very well-defined dorsal, but other than that, I would have probably said he's just a faded black. The other one I'm thinking of wasn't even faded looking.

So yes, grullas can be really, really dark and black.

I couldn't access your link, but googled Wrapatou, and found this : https://www.facebook.com/MountainVillageFarm Is this whom you're referring to? If so, he is as close as damnit to my dark grulla filly. She has all the dun characteristics, but they're not easy to see with such a dark coat, and definitely not with a winter coat. The one thing is her dorsal stripe is very visible, it looks like it's wet, even with a very woolly winter coat.

Oh goodness, just discovered this horse is the one I sent you a photo of Georgeanne! The one I said looks exactly the same colour as my filly. Small world, and yep, that's exactly her colour. http://www.duncentralstation.com/Grulla.html about 2/3 of the way down the page.