If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Christian debate part 1: The True Christian: Intro

Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe

I'm just gonna say that there is not a group on earth who follow the Christ more closely than Jw's. Even Jesus said many will acknowledge him as Lord, but he will turn them away. Meaning that there will be many professed followers of his, that are not truly following him. He says those who do ,NOT HIS WILL, but the will of his Father, will be saved. (Mat chap 7)

OnlyJehovah's witnesses Acknowledge Jesus Father as the only true God. Just as Jesus did in John 17:3. If Jesus is the way, and only one group of people truly follow him, why then should this group shrink back, when they are truly the one's following the Christ?

There is only one group of true Christians on earth. And again, not because I say so, but because the Bible's description of a true Christian only fits JW's. Can't make this stuff up.

Let me start off with saying that LJ and OG have been picking apart Jehovah's witness views as contradictory but not entirely using evidence in the Bible to back up their claims. This is where I come in. I am tired of seeing a Jehovah's Witness representing the "lawyer" for CHristians on this forum. I am proud of your devotion and that you argue for your beliefs but, Knickfan4lyfe, you have to understand that your views are thwarted and your missing the boat. If you can accept the possibility that some of your views are wrong, than we can debate on any topic that you desire. Christians learn everyday and have to be equipped for anything as 2nd Timothy 3:17 explains.

- No offense guys but Atheist can't really argue against the Bible because Atheist lack the ability to interpret the Bible. This is why Atheist usually just say that the Bible is not historically accurate and that it should be disregarded. Atheist point towards Science for almost every argument but ignore the mathematical odds that support the Bible in amazing fashion.

"True Christians" would not mis-interpret the Bible so much as you have, my friend. I clearly exposed your lack of interpretation in other threads which ended in you just repeating yourself over and over again and ignoring the versus I showed you to back up my claims.

LJ is right that I should debate you on this post, understandable coming from a JW who thinks he is right, but the evidence of mis-interpretation on your part will be shown when I debate you, again.

And please don't go off topic like you did constantly when we debated in the past.

Pick a topic, stick to it, and we will discuss...if you don't pick a topic than I will gladly choose one for you.

-I ask that LJ and OG or whoever is not a Christian to sit back and watch without interrupting this debate.
-After the debate is finished, I will answer questions from non-Christians so you can get answers from a Christian point of view with correct interpretation.

My mom and my brother both believe that there is a white man with a giant beard living in the sky. I don't but we have stopped argue about it. Either you believe or you don't. None of us can prove the other one wrong so why bother. Halle****ingluja and amen...

My mom and my brother both believe that there is a white man with a giant beard living in the sky. I don't but we have stopped argue about it. Either you believe or you don't. None of us can prove the other one wrong so why bother. Halle****ingluja and amen...

Actually the scientific facts have already proven all of the religions wrong. It's just a matter of people educating themselves and giving up their primitive superstitions.

The difficult part is getting people to give up something that makes them feel special. That tells them there is a special place they go to after they die. That is a paradise in which they will stay forever and ever and ever for all eternity. Haha! If that doesn't sound made up, I don't know what does. Lol.

Then tack on the superstition that if you don't believe in that stuff you will be punished. Geez. No wonder religion is still around. Educate yourself people! None of it exists!!

The facts leave you 3 choices about God:
1.) He is all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful but he doesn't care
2.) He cares but is not all-powerful
3.) He doesn't exist

Hunter gatherer's did not exist. Adam was the first man. And he was a lot smarter than a hunter gatherer.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Hunter/gathers were not a typr of human...it was our first society. It is how early humans organized themselves and went about their daily lives. Their society was built on hunting and gathering food for the community.

And what you just said, is what Satan basically implied to Eve, man does not need God. Thousands of years later, man without God has been an epic fail. All humans do is live in strife and turmoil, with a few good moments, then you die. Great stuff. No form of Government, or leadership has helped. But you're right, man is good, and do not need God's guidance. Because the track record of the goodness of man is so outstanding!

That fine...I guess Satan was smarter than you give him credit for. Humans do not need a supreme dictator to know what is right or wrong. I thought you believed in free will? Why do you look down on humans and yourself? You don't need the threat of eternal damnation to know not to still your neighbors possessions.

I ask you to examine the track record of religion. It has started more wars and justified more killings then any other thing. Power, treasures and land have nothing on religion when it comes to war. Further all religion was created by humans, implemented by humans and evolved through humans. This track record you speak of is the track record of religion.

I have said, repeatedly, Biblical prophecy is the main reason I believe the Bible is the word of God. There is no way the writers could have maneuvered in any way shape or form the future events it speaks of. Impossible. Therefore, someone with intimate knowledge of future events must be behind the inspired writers words. Correct! Man is infallible, which what makes prophecy so outstanding! It cannot come from any infallible man.

Anyone can write something vague enough with an open ended means of interpretation and given enough time you can apply that to many real life events. Look at Nostradamus...many of his quatrains have been said to have come true. Do you believe he is a prophet?

Please give me some concrete examples along with the text on these prophecies you claim have come true.

No, But it has been proven he existed, led God's people through the wilderness and continued on. So since the events took place that God said would take place, why would I doubt that he spoke to Moses through a burning bush? You ever met George Washington? Nah, but you know he existed, and things took place to shape this country, therefore you have no doubts that what history says happened, did so.

Man recorded the story of Moses, not god. Did he exists? Yes. Is there proof of anything supernatural? No. He was a hero to many and stories were told about him. Over time the stories became more fantastical because that is human nature. You can see examples of exaggeration when you see a movie "based on real life". The story may be rooted in truth but to make it entertaining one must embellish.

Funny you should say this. tell me, which of the Bible writers takes credit for being the author of the Bible? I'll wait.

This means nothing and is a dodge. I can say for certainty that King James compiled many stories and gospels into a single book. JW's decided to change that book. Now you have two different interpretations of the same stores. If that is not proof enough that the book should not be considered absolute truth than I don't know what is.

The Bible does not need to mention WMD, or electricity to be timeless. His principles are timeless. If we loved our neighbor more than ourselves, would we even think to create WMD? Highly doubtful.

The bible goes into specifics of the time when it talks about currency, specific locations and specific actions. (just to name a few) Murder is different than total inhalation or mass killings. Further the bible makes distinctions about different types of acts such as murder and execution. This tells us that the bible and the people who wrote it weren't simply speaking in moral genralities but were actually talking about specific acts. The fact that it does not make specific mention about things beyond their time cannot be ignored.

Abortion is murder

No it's not. You cannot say that a clump of cells that cannot sustain itself without feeding off of the mother is alive. Every time you scratch you arm you kill millions of cells that contain your DNA and could with the proper scientific knowledge be grown into a fully formed human being. Remeber under your definition that everytime you do so you are committing genocide.

Man's fault, not Jehovah's.

Yet you believe we were created in his image by him hence it is his fault. BTW, what arrogance us humans have...as if there were a supreme and all powerful being that he would resemble us in anyway.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Sorry but I wont read your propaganda. If you want to have a debate then have one...don't send me to read some generic talking points.

But I can prophecy! If the book says A) will happen in our time, and I look around and see it taking place, has the prophecy not then come true?

Like what?

You clearly are misguided on what free will actually is. Free will means that even though God wants us to love him, he gives us the choice to do otherwise, by letting it play out.

No, you clearly don't understand my point. If god is all knowing and responsible for our creation than we need not walk the path...he already knows before we even exist what all our actions are going to be. It's already written so there is no free will...there is only a path we must walk to satisfy a supreme puppet master pulling all our strings.

The being who could create Galaxies with a thought, cannot choose to not know what a person will or won't do? You buy that? I don't.

Now you are making stuff up to fill the logical holes I am punching in your script. The bible is clear that god is ALL KNOWING. If you are to believe that you cannot make up that he somehow uses his own powers to hide his own omniscient knowledge. Nice try though...

Again, tough to argue with men who did not even speak our language, or have the resources we have now, thousands of years ago, can pen events that have taken place in future times, long after they died, even down to our day. Utterly impossible for it to be staged. Their is no assumption. The Bible is the only book with such things, because God is the only one who is the future. Period.

Specific examples are required. Since I know this to be completely false it will be easy to poke holes in any vague prophecy you may repeat.

Jehovah used to speak to Adam, personally each day before sin. Since we are now sinners, that path has been blocked by God, until mankind is brought back to it's original state. But, he has given the provision of prayer for us to speak with him about anything we wish.

An all knowing being knows what you would pray, think and what is in your heart therefore does not need you to pray. You pray to fulfill your own needs, not gods. BTW, when you pray...does god answer? Not metaphorically either. Do you actually hear a response?

Don't forget to throw in half monkey, half man, human ancestors!

So when you see the following chart do you chalk it up to a trick the devil plays on us? I guess all those fossil records and DNA are all bogus too.

Jesus existed, Zeus and Hercules, not so much.

Yet both are written and books by people who thought they were gods. How can you pick and chose what to believe? Zeus and Hercules predate Jesus by many years. The father of Western civilization, the Greeks believed it to be true. It allowed them to form the first Democracy, study philosophy, study mathematics and lay the ground word for all we take for granted.

Oh, that's right, we're men. Imperfect, all knowing book says so. so it must be. (I'll take science and verifiable data over mans fairytales from thousands of years ago any day)

Yet, I am to believe that out of the chaos called by science "The Big Bang theory", somehow order came of it? That's not a fail, but because there are no explained answers by science why stars die, or galaxies don't form, means God failed? That's knee slap funny.

Yes. If you understood science and properties of randomness then you would know. Our universe is so large that all we see is just the roll of a near infinite sided dice. One action leading to another and then another and so on. A massive explosion spread matter though out our know universe and was so wide and varied that it had no other choice but to settle over enough time into some type of order. This can be observed on a smaller scale here on earth. Weather patterns and DNA come to mind.

Further, science does explain why galaxies and don't form and why stars die. The fact that you are ignorant to these truths only highlights that you are arguing against science without understanding it. Now that is knee slap sad...

There are many living organisms on earth. No life found anywhere else. Why can't it just be that maybe the earth was prepared for life? I mean... IT"S OBVIOUS!!!!! Why does it have to be an anomaly? Stroke of luck? Why can't it be that, maybe God decided to start making life on the planets with earth? Why can't it be that he will put life on other planets? There is a such thing as a "start", correct? Why can't we be just that?

Science has proven that life did not always exist on earth nor was the climate able to sustain higher organisms like humans. Humans have walked the earth for a tiny part of the earths existence. The earth will be here long after we are gone.

It is not an anomaly...we are not alone. The universe is vast and varrying and the sheer size would lead one to conclude there is other life out there. It has yet to be proven but one can safely bet there is life on other planets.

From the man who told me I don't know how God is doing, how do you know he simultaneously experiences everything at once?

The bible implies it.

Simply put, what I speak of knowing, does not originate with me, but with he who IS knowing. Therefore it is truth, not based on my merits, but his.

You know nothing but what another flawed man told you who in turn heard it from yet another flawed human. so on and so one...again, remember the game operator?

1 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Who are those people witnesses of? JEHOVAH, GOD!!! Therefore, that will make them, Jehovah's witnesses! By the way, even Jesus Christ said he was a Jehovah's witness! (Jn 17:6) The bible even calls him, the FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS! Jesus is the truest Jehovah's witness in existence. And Jesus was around before any planet, galaxy, or star you can name.

LOL. So if I start a group called the "Seer's of Light" or the "Brothers of Adam" then I can claim my people existed during creation or were around during the time of Adam? It's nonsense! The founder of your sect picked out the word "witness" from the bible and started a group. Nothing more. You cannot pick out the word witness from the bible and claim you predate anyone.

I don't know why there is homosexuality in some animals. I don't pretend to touch subjects I'm clueless about. Only thing I will say is Jehovah knows. And though that does not work for you, suits me just fine. Simple for this reason. Animals cannot read. Jehovah sent his son to recover what Adam lost for humanity, not homosexual animals.

Ahh I see. So you believe homosexuality in people is a sin yet animals incapable of sin manifesting homosexuality is to be ignored. How convenient!

Let me start off with saying that LJ and OG have been picking apart Jehovah's witness views as contradictory but not entirely using evidence in the Bible to back up their claims. This is where I come in. I am tired of seeing a Jehovah's Witness representing the "lawyer" for CHristians on this forum. I am proud of your devotion and that you argue for your beliefs but, Knickfan4lyfe, you have to understand that your views are thwarted and your missing the boat. If you can accept the possibility that some of your views are wrong, than we can debate on any topic that you desire. Christians learn everyday and have to be equipped for anything as 2nd Timothy 3:17 explains.

- No offense guys but Atheist can't really argue against the Bible because Atheist lack the ability to interpret the Bible. This is why Atheist usually just say that the Bible is not historically accurate and that it should be disregarded. Atheist point towards Science for almost every argument but ignore the mathematical odds that support the Bible in amazing fashion.

"True Christians" would not mis-interpret the Bible so much as you have, my friend. I clearly exposed your lack of interpretation in other threads which ended in you just repeating yourself over and over again and ignoring the versus I showed you to back up my claims.

LJ is right that I should debate you on this post, understandable coming from a JW who thinks he is right, but the evidence of mis-interpretation on your part will be shown when I debate you, again.

And please don't go off topic like you did constantly when we debated in the past.

Pick a topic, stick to it, and we will discuss...if you don't pick a topic than I will gladly choose one for you.

-I ask that LJ and OG or whoever is not a Christian to sit back and watch without interrupting this debate.
-After the debate is finished, I will answer questions from non-Christians so you can get answers from a Christian point of view with correct interpretation.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Hunter/gathers were not a typr of human...it was our first society. It is how early humans organized themselves and went about their daily lives. Their society was built on hunting and gathering food for the community.

Nonsense. It's weird to me how you guys hinge on man writing the bible, so it's full of fallacies based on that, yet believe everything man says about apes, monkeys and hunter gatherer societies. Amazing.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

That fine...I guess Satan was smarter than you give him credit for. Humans do not need a supreme dictator to know what is right or wrong. I thought you believed in free will? Why do you look down on humans and yourself? You don't need the threat of eternal damnation to know not to still your neighbors possessions.

In fact we do. The supreme being is the law giver. He sets the boundaries for what is good vs bad according to his creations. Mankind has spent the vast majority of thier time on earth ignoring Jehovah's wise counsel. That is why mankind is always in peril, because we are doing opposite of what Jehovah deems correct for us to survive in true peace and happiness. So you are wrong, the devil is wrong and any other man who believes doing things opposite of what Jehovah deems best is wrong. And Just look at the last 6k years of mankind to verify this. Mankind ruling himself has been a fail. Even in the age of science, mankind is worst today than ever before. Shame you can't see that.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

I ask you to examine the track record of religion. It has started more wars and justified more killings then any other thing. Power, treasures and land have nothing on religion when it comes to war. Further all religion was created by humans, implemented by humans and evolved through humans. This track record you speak of is the track record of religion.

Wrong, true worship of God was created by Jehovah! Before any world was created, Micheal the arch angel was witnessing of Jehovah. If you actually were in tune with what the bible is about, you might know this.

And yes, you are absolutely right, religion has been the cause of all deaths ever recorded. FALSE RELIGION. Jehovah God himself blames false religion for all the deaths in human history, according to the Bible. False religion started when the devil was able to convince Adam and Eve to stray from the only true God. In turn, when they listened to Satan, they then started following a false God. Now is the creation of FALSE RELIGION. And the God of false religion has clouded the minds of unbelievers to the point they wish not even find the truth, which will set them free.

I'm gonna say this, Jehovah's witnesses have been preaching the death of false religion for decades now. We are so close to the day when religion itself will be killed.The governments worldwide are so sick of religion, they will kill it. The Bible prophecies about this impending day, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. When this happens, everyone will know there is a Jehovah.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Anyone can write something vague enough with an open ended means of interpretation and given enough time you can apply that to many real life events. Look at Nostradamus...many of his quatrains have been said to have come true. Do you believe he is a prophet?

Please give me some concrete examples along with the text on these prophecies you claim have come true.

You've seen a few. Not going to keep posting things you choose to ignore. But this is one of my favs since it concerns people of our time and place.

Isa2:2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

The only people adhering to this prophecy in our time are Jehovah's witnesses. Why? Because it's the only group of people on the earth that fit the description. Only people on earth who worship Jehovah according to his will, made up of many peoples and nationalities, that will not engage in warfare, which in turn promotes peace. If you are an objective person, before you rebuttle this, honestly ask yourself of another faith that can fit this bill. HONESTLY.

Before you reply anyone can fit this vague description, you should ask yourself, why only one group of people fit it. If you are being honest, It should make you ponder why no other people on earth are adhering to such a vague, open ended biblical verse.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Man recorded the story of Moses, not god. Did he exists? Yes. Is there proof of anything supernatural? No. He was a hero to many and stories were told about him. Over time the stories became more fantastical because that is human nature. You can see examples of exaggeration when you see a movie "based on real life". The story may be rooted in truth but to make it entertaining one must embellish.

Over time the stories became more fantastical based on what evidence? The evidence of Trill-I-said-so? This is more opinion than fact. If man wanted to make Moses story more fantastical, why not say he actually saw God, then God having to shield him so that he not have to die from seeing him on the mount? Why not say Moses was able to get into the promised land, instead of being shut out for taking credit away from Jehovah? Especially when he asked Jehovah's pardon 3 times before Jehovah told him never to ask again? Why just allow him to see the land, and not enter? That would be more fantastical don't you think? By the way, it should be noted that Moses wrote most of the early canons... So he could have chosen to make things up. His candor speaks volume of men putting God before their own selfish will.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

This means nothing and is a dodge. I can say for certainty that King James compiled many stories and gospels into a single book. JW's decided to change that book. Now you have two different interpretations of the same stores. If that is not proof enough that the book should not be considered absolute truth than I don't know what is.

Actually, if you have been paying attention, I have said more than once that once the theme of the Bible is understood, any bible will suffice. Which is why Jehovah's witnesses invite people to use their bibles while they discuss the discourse.

However, without that, then you will get differences in every Bible, even other trinitarian based bibles. The laughable thing about this is the thought that Jehovah's witnesses have changed the bible. This is simply not true. In fact it is the only Bible on earth that is translated from the original Hebrew and Greek languages. THE ONLY ONE. Every other translation stems from mostly the spanish vulgate. And even with that being said, this is not a Knock on other translations, more than a big up for the NWT. ALL BIBLES IN EXISTENCE ARE GOD"S WORD. The goal of the NWT was to make a translation in modern english that accurately reflects the theme of the Bible, while Glorifying Jehovah the author, by reinstating the name of God some 7k times where it should appear in every other bible, but weirdly does not.

Question? If The name Jehovah appears 7k times in the Torah, which is the equivalent to the old testament in all modern bibles, Why is it that only one Bible on earth puts Jehovah's name where it applies in the original texts? Why remove the name of the God you worship from his book? Should it not be there? Especially since it's in the original language? But the people who wish to uphold God's standards and his name are the ones accused of changing God's word? Satan is clever.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

The bible goes into specifics of the time when it talks about currency, specific locations and specific actions. (just to name a few) Murder is different than total inhalation or mass killings. Further the bible makes distinctions about different types of acts such as murder and execution. This tells us that the bible and the people who wrote it weren't simply speaking in moral genralities but were actually talking about specific acts. The fact that it does not make specific mention about things beyond their time cannot be ignored.

Are you trying to say there is a difference between murder and execution? I surely hope not. They are both murder. The one difference you can sight, is that one is illegal and the other gives governments the supposed right to legally murder someone, masking it with a clever calling like "execution".

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

No it's not. You cannot say that a clump of cells that cannot sustain itself without feeding off of the mother is alive. Every time you scratch you arm you kill millions of cells that contain your DNA and could with the proper scientific knowledge be grown into a fully formed human being. Remeber under your definition that everytime you do so you are committing genocide.

Stop it. There is a big difference in scratching an itchy arm, and still being able to live on, vs killing an unborn child. Besides, who needs scientific knowledge to clone a person when you can just procreate the way it was intended? I get what you're trying to say, but the analogy does not apply.

If we wanna get into semantics, I can say without oxygen non of us can sustain life. But since it's here, we can all live. Yes the fetus needs the mom to survive, so what? That means it's less of a being because it depends on another to sustain life temporarily? Word? It's murder. Point blank.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Yet you believe we were created in his image by him hence it is his fault. BTW, what arrogance us humans have...as if there were a supreme and all powerful being that he would resemble us in anyway.

God exercises Love, Wisdom, power and Justice. Humans at times do as well. Jesus Christ is mankind's foremost example of accurately reflecting these Godly qualities. So yea, we do resemble God in some ways. He wanted us to.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Sorry but I wont read your propaganda. If you want to have a debate then have one...don't send me to read some generic talking points.

But if you posted a link that would help answer my question, you'd view me as arrogant and ignorant for ignoring wise counsel that could help, correct? Your loss.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Like what?

The Bible contains numerous prophecies, many of which have already been fulfilled. Consider an example. Through the prophet Isaiah, who lived in the eighth century B.C.E., Jehovah foretold that the city of Babylon would be destroyed. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Details were given to show just how this would happen. Invading armies would dry up Babylon’s river and march into the city without a battle. That is not all. Isaiah’s prophecy even named the king who would conquer Babylon—Cyrus.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]–[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. The Bible writer Isaiah foretold the fall of Babylon

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Some 200 years later—on the night of October 5/6, 539 B.C.E.—an army encamped near Babylon. Who was its commander? A Persian king named Cyrus. The stage was thus set for the fulfillment of an amazing prophecy. But would the army of Cyrus invade Babylon without a battle, as foretold?[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The Babylonians were holding a festival that night and felt secure behind their massive city walls. Meanwhile, Cyrus cleverly diverted the water of the river that flowed through the city. Soon the water was shallow enough for his men to cross the riverbed and approach the walls of the city. But how would Cyrus’ army get past Babylon’s walls? For some reason, on that night the doors to the city were carelessly left open![Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Regarding Babylon, it was foretold: “She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) This prophecy did more than predict a city’s fall. It showed that Babylon would be desolated permanently. You can see evidence of the fulfillment of these words. The uninhabited site of ancient Babylon—about 50 miles south of Baghdad, Iraq—is proof that what Jehovah spoke through Isaiah has been fulfilled: “I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].%

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

No, you clearly don't understand my point. If god is all knowing and responsible for our creation than we need not walk the path...he already knows before we even exist what all our actions are going to be. It's already written so there is no free will...there is only a path we must walk to satisfy a supreme puppet master pulling all our strings.

You're point and how it is are two diff things. If God did not allow us to choose OUR path, then we wouldn't have free will. Him being all knowing, or having that ability is irrelevant in the free will argument. There absolutely is free will when God allows you to live and choose your own path, whether righteous or unrighteous. If Jehovah was into pulling strings as far as humans are concerned, we'd be robots all doing his will, whether we wanted to or not. Instead, we're here right now and you're telling me there is no Jehovah. Obviously, he is not pulling your strings. It really is not a tough concept to grasp.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Now you are making stuff up to fill the logical holes I am punching in your script. The bible is clear that god is ALL KNOWING. If you are to believe that you cannot make up that he somehow uses his own powers to hide his own omniscient knowledge. Nice try though...

Gen 6:5 Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.
Why would a being who sees all things regret anything, unless he allowed things to play itself out at times? Does not make sense that he would choose to see the future of man before he makes them and makes them anyway, in light of him seeing he himself will regret making man at one point.

Bottom line is, having an ability and exercising it are two different things. If we can choose to use or not use an ability, what stops Jehovah? The bible says Jehovah is all powerful, yet he still has not used his power to cleanse the earth of wickedness..... YET! If he can curb his anger, if he can curb his power, why can he not curb his ability to foresee the future? Ahh... Because you say so? Nice try.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

An all knowing being knows what you would pray, think and what is in your heart therefore does not need you to pray. You pray to fulfill your own needs, not gods. BTW, when you pray...does god answer? Not metaphorically either. Do you actually hear a response?

Depends on what you're praying for. If we are praying for things according to the Good will of Jehovah, they will be done. And no, Jehovah has never spoken to me, nor do I expect him to. In fact, it might scare the hell outta me, so I prefer signs anyways.

And again, Prayer is a direct line to Jehovah. If he is listening, if he answers, clearly he is affected by it as well. He does not have to say a word for me to know a prayer has been answered.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

So when you see the following chart do you chalk it up to a trick the devil plays on us? I guess all those fossil records and DNA are all bogus too.

Listen, like I tell LJ all the time. When they find a species that appears to be half man half ape, like this drawing appears to be, we'll talk. Up until now, what has been found has either been primate or homo species. ONE OR THE OTHER. Not both intertwined like this picture makes it appear.

By the way, do not scoff at the power of the devil. When he fooled Adam and Eve he did this by hiding behind a snake, while not revealing himself. All he cared about was them straying from God He does not care to receive the credit. In fact, it's better if he does not exist at all, so that man can think they've got it all figured out on their own! So if you think having humans think they came from monkey's is not on the list of lies....

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Yet both are written and books by people who thought they were gods. How can you pick and chose what to believe? Zeus and Hercules predate Jesus by many years. The father of Western civilization, the Greeks believed it to be true. It allowed them to form the first Democracy, study philosophy, study mathematics and lay the ground word for all we take for granted.

You are not serious, are you? Why would you believe in fairytales versus a person who actually lived? Do we really need to ask which is more credible? The myth or an actual person? Word?

And for all the things the Greek society stood for, it's dead today. And so are their beliefs. Why? Because Zeus and Hercules never happened, while Jesus is the greatest man BY FAR to ever live. Which is why the Greeks adopted Christianity... Because it was REAL.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Oh, that's right, we're men. Imperfect, all knowing book says so. so it must be. (I'll take science and verifiable data over mans fairytales from thousands of years ago any day)

How can events involving real people be classified fairytales? That would be like someone classifying your life as one to you. Would seem absurd, correct?

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Yes. If you understood science and properties of randomness then you would know. Our universe is so large that all we see is just the roll of a near infinite sided dice. One action leading to another and then another and so on. A massive explosion spread matter though out our know universe and was so wide and varied that it had no other choice but to settle over enough time into some type of order. This can be observed on a smaller scale here on earth. Weather patterns and DNA come to mind.

The diff is you can monitor weather and dna patterns. You can only guess about the big bang theory, no matter how smart a person is... It's a damn guesstimate. Which is why not all scientists agree with the theory.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Further, science does explain why galaxies and don't form and why stars die. The fact that you are ignorant to these truths only highlights that you are arguing against science without understanding it. Now that is knee slap sad...

So the answers science has today for these things will be the answers for it 500 years from now, without fail? Because science has a way of changing course of thinking, even radically from decade to decade it seems. One generation Neanderthals are ape men like, now they depict them more modern looking than previously thought. And the revisions are to be excused because they are all just theories to begin with.

Are you willing to stand here and say that the answers that science gives you today for why stars die and galaxies don't form will be the same 500 years from now? If you say anything but yes to this question, then I have to wonder why you believe the answers given now.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Science has proven that life did not always exist on earth nor was the climate able to sustain higher organisms like humans. Humans have walked the earth for a tiny part of the earths existence. The earth will be here long after we are gone.

The bible agrees with that assessment. It goes through the stages of the earths formation, readying for life. And no, the earth was made for life. As long as there is an earth, life will exist on it.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

It is not an anomaly...we are not alone. The universe is vast and varrying and the sheer size would lead one to conclude there is other life out there. It has yet to be proven but one can safely bet there is life on other planets.

So you're willing to bet on something unproven? A theory in essence? The universe is soooo big it HAS to have other life? You just made something unproven a fact in your mind. You have brainwashed yourself! Things don't have to be proven to be true to be true in your mind, yet you scoff at the bible and it's truths as fairytales.... Unbelievable.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

You know nothing but what another flawed man told you who in turn heard it from yet another flawed human. so on and so one...again, remember the game operator?

I can look at the world and see it's rapid decay and the rapid ascension of true worship of Jehovah, and know that these men must have been inspired from someone higher than they were to know what would be happening on earth long after they died.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

LOL. So if I start a group called the "Seer's of Light" or the "Brothers of Adam" then I can claim my people existed during creation or were around during the time of Adam? It's nonsense! The founder of your sect picked out the word "witness" from the bible and started a group. Nothing more. You cannot pick out the word witness from the bible and claim you predate anyone.

Except for the fact that it was Jehovah who chose to call those who worship him his witnesses. In effect, the Jews were the first group of people considered Jehovah's witnesses. And secondly, Russell was dead long before the Bible Students adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses in the 30's. So get it correct next time.

Jehovah is the one who decides who his witnesses are. Which is why the bible calls Jesus "THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS". Witness of who is Jesus? Jesus said he was around before the worlds were made. So that means if he is THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, he's been that, long before the worlds were made.Therefore, Jehovah's witnesses were around long before they appeared on earth. I mean, that's just good ole common sense.

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Ahh I see. So you believe homosexuality in people is a sin yet animals incapable of sin manifesting homosexuality is to be ignored. How convenient!

I say it's a sin based on what Jehovah says. Either way, animals and humans are different. One group is made in God's image, the other isn't. Huge gap there.

Your argument is that the Bible says to not have food sacrificed to idols and things sacrificed to idols.

You just contradicted yourself. A blood transfusion is not sacrificed to idols. It is given to human beings who need it to survive. So unless you consider your fellow members of the Jehovah's Witnesses to be false idols, then your statement is void.

Also, human and animal bodies are filled with blood. Even if you drain a piece of meat of its blood, it will still have blood inside it. In other words, most Jehovah's Witnesses do not abstain from blood.

As for the 1914 prediction, I repeat, where in the Bible does it say that Jesus invisibly ruled his throne in 1914? You admitted that humans make mistakes, so I am not going to accept a Watchtower quote. Find a Bible quote that lists 1914 as the year where Jesus invisibly ruled his throne. You can't.

29to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols foods and such

and from blood Blood transfusions would apply here I would think

So it's not a contradiction. You just want it to be to win a couple cool points. Anyone can see it's two fold. Abstain from things sacrificed to idols A) and, meaning also, From blood. I would venture to say that having blood pumped through your veins does not qualify as abstaining from blood.

And it must be different in some way from eating a properly bled animal, as Jehovah has given the ok to do so, so long as it's properly bled. You're wrong. Deal. I'm sure it's not the first time.

And no. If you're looking for these words " Jesus will rule invisibly starting in 1914" You will never find those words in any bible. But the explanation given more than satisfies the answer to how the Bible gets to that conclussion. On you to accept or reject.

I think religion is stupid (christian) because God did way more messed up stuff to people just to keep people humble than Satan ever did to anyone.

If you wanna worship an ******* god like that go ahead.

Personally i do believe in God, in a scientific sense...we have no explanation for the Big Bang still. We have theories of why it occured, but no explanation for the big ass mass of energy that was required to start a universe. In fact in theoretical physics it is called the God Particle. I think that whatever started the universe probably doesn't care for you or I or sentient/non sentient beings....It just expands and that is it.

In my opinion when you die that's it....so enjoy your times here, but hey you are free to live how ever you want.