Mythic Adventures

Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Just over a week ago, at Gen Con, we announced the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcover book due to come out next August: Mythic Adventures. Since then, there has been a fury of speculation and excitement about this book, so I thought I would give a recap of what we’ve said so far about this new addition to the game.

What is mythic?

The mythic rules offer a new way to play Pathfinder. It uses all the rules that you are familiar with, but it adds a new layer to the game. Mythic adventurers are elevated above their non-mythic counterparts, gaining powers and abilities beyond their reach that allow them to take on tougher foes and more daunting challenges. A mythic character takes on the agents of deities, rushes headlong into the abyss, and strives to build a legend, all while facing off against a wide variety of foes, from common monsters to other mythic characters. If Elric, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser, Hercules, or King Arthur were created in Pathfinder, they would be mythic characters.

Is this a replacement for epic rules?

Mythic is not epic. You can use the mythic rules with 1st-level characters just as easily as you can with 20th-level characters. You can even use the mythic rules to continue to grow in power once your PCs reach 20th level, taking on some of the toughest adversaries in the game, from ancient dragons to demon lords. Meanwhile a low-level mythic character might take on monsters that you are already familiar with, at a level where non-mythic characters would face certain doom.

So, how does mythic work?

Each mythic character must select a mythic path, which defines some of the powers and abilities he gains, in addition to a few features gained by all mythic characters. As a character advances, his mythic tier might increase. Starting at 1st tier, a mythic character is quite a bit more resilient and can draw upon his mythic power to accomplish incredible deeds. Once he reaches 10th tier (the upper limit of mythic power), he is an unstoppable force, akin to a demigod in some respects.

Mythic tiers are not gained by accumulating experience points. Instead, a mythic character has to accomplish a specific number of deeds to achieve the next tier of mythic power. Using this system, your mythic tier is not tied to your character level. You still gain XP as normal, still gain levels as normal, but occasionally you might increase your mythic tier as well, adding a few new mythic abilities and powers to your character.

It is important to note that while mythic rules add to the game, they do not necessarily make the game more complex.

What are the mythic paths?

The rules currently include six paths for a mythic character to choose from. Each path offers a unique set of abilities to choose from, as well as some abilities that appear in more than one path. The paths you can choose from are as follows:

Archmage: Master of arcane magic, able to call upon his mythic power to cast extra spells, penetrate defenses, and even cast greater versions of existing spells.

Champion: Unequalled in his skill with weapons and styles of fighting. The champion can call upon his mythic power to make devastating attacks, quickly move across any battlefield, and strike many foes with a single swing.

Hierophant: In tune with the gods, be they deities or the spirits of the natural world, the hierophant is the master of divine magic. The hierophant can heal even the most deadly wounds, bring back allies from the dead, and wield the power of the gods.

Marshal: A leader of unparalleled vision, the marshal elevates those around him, granting powerful abilities and bonuses to his allies, even if they are not mythic themselves. Entire armies flock to his banner, and his close friends find his council invaluable.

Trickster: The master of many deceptions, the trickster can influence the world around him in both subtle ways (with a smile) and more direct ways (with a dagger in the back).

Warden: Few can withstand the sort of punishment that the warden takes regularly. No foe frightens this warrior, because he knows that no blow could possibly lay him low. The warden uses his resiliency to protect his allies, the people around him, and the lands he calls home.

What else will be in Mythic Adventures?

In short, everything you need to add mythic rules to your game. The book will contain the mythic paths, deeds, feats, spells, magic items, artifacts, monsters, and a short sample adventure to get you started. In addition, Mythic Adventures will include plenty of tips and advice for playing a mythic character and running a mythic campaign. It will also feature ways that you can add mythic rules to your existing campaign, even if it’s only for an adventure or two.

Mythic monsters?

Oh yes. There will be mythic monsters. This book will include a selection of monsters, from upgrades of existing beasts, such as the mythic minotaur and medusa, to entirely new creations. In addition, there will be a number of simple templates and rules to allow a GM to make any monster mythic. There are also going to be a number of other toys to go in the GMs toolbox to help make a game that can challenge such powerful characters.

Can I have it NOW?

Not quite yet. Mythic Adventures will be released at Gen Con 2013, but you’ll get a chance to play with the rules well before that. We will be releasing a select portion of the rules set, to give you a chance to play with the rules, tell us what works and what needs work. This playtest will hopefully get underway by the end of September, but we will make sure to give you a firm date as soon as we have one. Until then, I want to leave you with this one little mythic rule for you to chew on.

Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, a mythic character gains a +20 mythic bonus on his initiative checks. In addition, he can spend one use of his mythic power each round to take an additional turn, treating his initiative for this second turn as his initiative roll without the +20 mythic bonus. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the end of his first action during the round.

I don't need stats for Gods to GM them. The expression of a God's power is in three forms.

But, it would still be fun to look at.

Init He goes first; Senses all; Perception He sees you

DEFENSE
AC You don't hit him
hp More than you'll ever whittle away, even if you could hit him
Auto-Save vs Mortals
OFFENSE
Speed: Damn Fast
Melee: He kills you
Ranged: He kills you from across the room
Special Attacks: Lots of them
STATISTICS
Str High, Dex High, Con High, Int High, Wis High, Cha High
Base Atk His attack succeeds; CMB He gets you; CMD You don't get him
Feats: Most of them
Skills: Most of them Auto-Succeed
SQ: Lots of them
Combat Gear: Pretty much anything he wants

Yeah, but there are dramatic situations where you might like to see two gods face off...

I'm not saying "you're wrong, we /need/ god stats". I'm just a little tired of hearing how it will ruin everything, because I don't think it will.

Over-the-top gamers killing gods will only be a problem for groups who already have over-the-top gamers killing everything else already. And plus, god killing is kind of a genre.

There's plenty of depth you can give to these characters (the gods) with stats, just as you give depth to every beast in the bestiary with stats. It could be cool. Let's stop making the case that it will instantly ruin everything. A lot depends on how it is done.

But as long as one god can be said to be stronger or more specialized than another, I can imagine some form of stats being amusing.

I don't need stats for Gods to GM them. The expression of a God's power is in three forms.

But, it would still be fun to look at.

Init He goes first; Senses all; Perception He sees you

DEFENSE
AC You don't hit him
hp More than you'll ever whittle away, even if you could hit him
Auto-Save vs Mortals
OFFENSE
Speed: Damn Fast
Melee: He kills you
Ranged: He kills you from across the room
Special Attacks: Lots of them
STATISTICS
Str High, Dex High, Con High, Int High, Wis High, Cha High
Base Atk His attack succeeds; CMB He gets you; CMD You don't get him
Feats: Most of them
Skills: Most of them Auto-Succeed
SQ: Lots of them
Combat Gear: Pretty much anything he wants

Nah. That's far too boring and unimaginative.

If Paizo were to publish a Deity's stats, the above is probably exactly what it would say. Especially since Paizo's stance on fighting Deities is 'you lose, Deity wins'.

DEFENSE
AC You don't hit him
hp More than you'll ever whittle away, even if you could hit him
Auto-Save vs Mortals
OFFENSE
Speed: Damn Fast
Melee: He kills you
Ranged: He kills you from across the room
Special Attacks: Lots of them
STATISTICS
Str High, Dex High, Con High, Int High, Wis High, Cha High
Base Atk His attack succeeds; CMB He gets you; CMD You don't get him
Feats: Most of them
Skills: Most of them Auto-Succeed
SQ: Lots of them
Combat Gear: Pretty much anything he wants

That's just silly.

What ever happened to the quest to kill a god? Overthrowing a corrupt pantheon? The whole mortal vs. deity thing is a well established aspect of fantasy and mythology. Yes, gods should be strong. They should be unique (rather than just incredibly high level characters with some outsider HD thrown in). But they can be killed. I think Mythic play could be the perfect jumping point to actually introducing gods. It certainly wouldn't ruin things forever.

I'm not saying Paizo needs to do it. I'd be just fine if they never do. I just don't like the "Deity always wins" standpoint.

Regardless it's too powerful NPCs fighting. Don't play it out. It's resolved with GM fiat, preferably in the background while the PCs are actually doing something useful: beating the crucial minion, breaking the MacGuffin, freeing the imprisoned herald or whatever, so that their success (or failure) leads to the resolution of the deity battle.

What ever happened to the quest to kill a god? Overthrowing a corrupt pantheon? The whole mortal vs. deity thing is a well established aspect of fantasy and mythology. Yes, gods should be strong. They should be unique (rather than just incredibly high level characters with some outsider HD thrown in). But they can be killed. I think Mythic play could be the perfect jumping point to actually introducing gods. It certainly wouldn't ruin things forever.

I'm not saying Paizo needs to do it. I'd be just fine if they never do. I just don't like the "Deity always wins" standpoint.

Enter the god-killing McGuffin. It solves the problem of how mythical characters can kill gods while still maintaining the plausibility of why all the 20th / 10th mythic characters that existed throughout history haven't simply ganked whatever gods have rubbed them the wrong way.

Even Xena and Kratos needed McGuffins to kill the Greek gods (ok, in the first game...the developers seem to have forgotten that in the GoW sequels).

What ever happened to the quest to kill a god? Overthrowing a corrupt pantheon? The whole mortal vs. deity thing is a well established aspect of fantasy and mythology. Yes, gods should be strong. They should be unique (rather than just incredibly high level characters with some outsider HD thrown in). But they can be killed. I think Mythic play could be the perfect jumping point to actually introducing gods. It certainly wouldn't ruin things forever.

I'm not saying Paizo needs to do it. I'd be just fine if they never do. I just don't like the "Deity always wins" standpoint.

Enter the god-killing McGuffin. It solves the problem of how mythical characters can kill gods while still maintaining the plausibility of why all the 20th / 10th mythic characters that existed throughout history haven't simply ganked whatever gods have rubbed them the wrong way.

Even Xena and Kratos needed McGuffins to kill the Greek gods (ok, in the first game...the developers seem to have forgotten that in the GoW sequels).

That's one way, sure. But certainly not the only way, and introduces its own problems: why haven't any number of powerful beings throughout history gotten their paws on this McGuffin and carved their way to godhood? That's really a rhetorical question by the way, since the reason could be whatever the DM/GM wanted, same as if there is no McGuffin at all and the party, after a cataclysmic battle, overcomes a god. Bottom line is, there's absolutely no reason why there couldn't be statted deities. I'm not saying Paizo will stat them (I think it's clear they won't, based on previous responses), but that's their creative choice, not some hard rule for all GMs. Plenty of examples in mythology, pop culture, books, etc. of those types of battles. You and your group may not like the idea of them, but statted gods are no more ridiculous that saying "nope! god TPKs your group by smiling!", which I find boring and lacking in imagination.

But hey, to each their own. I'm just glad to finally be getting mythic rules!

What ever happened to the quest to kill a god? Overthrowing a corrupt pantheon? The whole mortal vs. deity thing is a well established aspect of fantasy and mythology. Yes, gods should be strong. They should be unique (rather than just incredibly high level characters with some outsider HD thrown in). But they can be killed. I think Mythic play could be the perfect jumping point to actually introducing gods. It certainly wouldn't ruin things forever.

I'm not saying Paizo needs to do it. I'd be just fine if they never do. I just don't like the "Deity always wins" standpoint.

Enter the god-killing McGuffin. It solves the problem of how mythical characters can kill gods while still maintaining the plausibility of why all the 20th / 10th mythic characters that existed throughout history haven't simply ganked whatever gods have rubbed them the wrong way.

Even Xena and Kratos needed McGuffins to kill the Greek gods (ok, in the first game...the developers seem to have forgotten that in the GoW sequels).

That's one way, sure. But certainly not the only way, and introduces its own problems: why haven't any number of powerful beings throughout history gotten their paws on this McGuffin and carved their way to godhood? That's really a rhetorical question by the way, since the reason could be whatever the DM/GM wanted, same as if there is no McGuffin at all and the party, after a cataclysmic battle, overcomes a god. Bottom line is, there's absolutely no reason why there couldn't be statted deities. I'm not saying Paizo will stat them (I think it's clear they won't, based on previous responses), but that's their creative choice, not some hard rule for all GMs. Plenty of examples in mythology, pop culture, books, etc. of those types of battles. You and your group may not like the idea of them, but statted gods are no more ridiculous that saying "nope! god TPKs your group by smiling!", which I find boring and lacking in imagination.

But hey, to...

This.

Also, I've never been a fan of the Insta-gank McGuffin for dealing with gods. Sure, some kind of weapon that lets you get past their Godly Unkillableness™, thus making it more of a far fight, but not something that just auto-kills them. Thats as much of a cop-out as the whole gods always win thing.

I'm just hoping that the mythic rules have many abilities that don't necessarily involve only combat related bonuses, because that's all that has really been shown so far. Like having abilities that allow me to carry a 1,000+ ton object, jump 100+ feet, easily break objects that normally have very high DCs, some stuff like that.

I'm just hoping that the mythic rules have many abilities that don't necessarily involve only combat related bonuses, because that's all that has really been shown so far. Like having abilities that allow me to carry a 1,000+ ton object, jump 100+ feet, easily break objects that normally have very high DCs, some stuff like that.

I am hoping that there won't be rules supporting most of the listed actions (maybe except breaking things). It was meant to be mythic, not superheroic.

I'm just hoping that the mythic rules have many abilities that don't necessarily involve only combat related bonuses, because that's all that has really been shown so far. Like having abilities that allow me to carry a 1,000+ ton object, jump 100+ feet, easily break objects that normally have very high DCs, some stuff like that.

I am hoping that there won't be rules supporting most of the listed actions (maybe except breaking things). It was meant to be mythic, not superheroic.

The game has always been super heroic to begin with.

What would you rather have, instead? I honestly don't see much of a problem lifting very heavy objects or jumping very high for characters that are intended to have powers of demigods with mythic rules.

Extended use of skills, allowing using skills to perform things that are normally done with magic, like using Heal to revive recently dead, using Perform to charm animals, using Bluff, Disguise and Stealth to fool Divination magic.

Extended use of skills, allowing using skills to perform things that are normally done with magic, like using Heal to revive recently dead, using Perform to charm animals, using Bluff, Disguise and Stealth to fool Divination magic.

That's all fine. Everything I've listed can be done more or less with the use of magic as well if you aim for it (except for jumping I think, which is pointless if you can fly, anyway.)

If mythic rules are supposed to allow you to accomplish incredible deeds that are normally outside the grasp of your character, why not allow you to accomplish ones that are strength related similar to what I've mentioned?

Not Test of the Starstone. Even with Mythic Rules I don't think Paizo intends to write a Test of the Starstone Module as the test has been hinted at to be quite personalized for the the person or people taking the test. It's something that a GM would have to write up for his group.

Actually they've said the exact opposite. Erik Mona apparently named it that BECAUSE it sounds like a good adventure name, and James Jacobs has mentioned several times in his question thread that it is something they may EVENTUALLY do, but has that "once we get around to it" quality to it.

If I had time I'd dig up a link, I'm sure someone will shortly though. I'm surprised they haven't already.

If I see a lot of +20's floating around I think I'll skip. Hope I'm wrong.

+20 to all the things!

I dunno, it's still just the playtest. I think that even if it doesn't appeal to you immediately, you should still try it out and give feedback. That way, you have a chance to help influence the changes, rather than just sit back and hope for the best.

Remember guys, the first thing we need to do is playtest how this affects Monks.

Cheapy's just asking for James Jacops to come to his house and slap him with a large fish while vehemently explaining how monks aren't broken, they're skirmishers, what you're experiencing is an end user error. Monks don't need to be fixed.

Good Idea and even when unprepared they should be tough to hit... Maybe give them double their (wisdom bonus + tier) to AC (not stacking with any other classes features we don't want to get too carried away) to represent their situational awareness.