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I've been away too long! I did want to stop by and say hello and give you hugs. You are getting great advice, so, I'm not worried about you on that front.

I had a lot of trouble with the friend idea too. I wanted H to know I was there for him, but I didn't want to condone his actions. In the end, I realized that building a true friendship with him now is not possible...maybe later...but, not now. And, to be honest, he doesn't really want a true friendship with me right now. I read someone's post to you about asking if she's the kind of friend you would choose right now. I asked myself that about my H a while back, and I realized, that he's the only "friend" I have that willingly betrayed me; that lied to me over and over; and that acted completely selfishly with no regard for my feelings or the best interest of my family. There's not room in my life for friends like that! I have enough other really great ones to take up my time!1

For awhile, I had to interact with him almost like I was angry just to get through it. That was difficult for me. But, now that I've detached, I am friendly. I can now give more than one word answers to his questions. And, I have on occasion sent him a TM out of the blue to tell him something about the kids that I didn't have to share. In fact we shared a joke recently about his sweater (that I think she gave him for Christmas). To me, that's the beginning of a friendship. I can't imagine ours will ever go past that, but I hope for the kids that we can be friends again at some level.

Only you can decide what actions are right for your sitch. And, if you ask God to help with that decision, I know He will!!!!

Thanks, AIO, I need the kicking around. I will get over and catch up on your story.

In particular, look at how I was so emotionally investing in her. Look at how her behavior influenced mine. Not healthy and, dare I say, codependency. Look at how I encouraged bad behavior and gave her control me my emotions. I see that in you.

Originally Posted By: JonF

This part is sort of new to me, and very confusing because W just hints around that it's a PA, when it seems to be more of a buddies thing. She has been VERY open and honest about starting to date, so why get all secretive?

Like Gucci said, this is an A. The more the A escalates, the more secretive it will get. When W comes around that means R with OM is having probs. That is your opportunity to be "friends" just don't talk about the A. You need to start getting intuitive to your W’s ACTIONS.

Originally Posted By: JonF

However, I decided after that interchange that I wasn't going to do it anymore, and I told W this:

"Do not forward me any more texts from him. He does not know you or me or our kids or our lives."

Atta boy!!! I would have left the second sentance out. Don't "over share" your thoughts.

Originally Posted By: JonF

Any bonus points for that?

The bonus is your improvement of yourself. At a certain point, you'll be so interested in yourself that you won't care what W is doing.

I read someone's post to you about asking if she's the kind of friend you would choose right now. I asked myself that about my H a while back, and I realized, that he's the only "friend" I have that willingly betrayed me; that lied to me over and over; and that acted completely selfishly with no regard for my feelings or the best interest of my family. There's not room in my life for friends like that! I have enough other really great ones to take up my time!

Right on Amy! I asked this question and the obvious answer is NO!!!! That's not to say you can't act friendly, just this isn't a friend to you.

I'm not sure that she feels what she is doing is "wrong" - although the attempts to justify it are a little extreme.

Your W knows it's wrong. We chose to do wrong things all the time right? Drinking, smoking, speeding, rolling stop signs.... We all justify wrong things. This is just a whole lot more "wrong" than the day to day stuff. This justification comes from extreme emotional issues. You'll hear many justifications. I heard at least 8 differnt ones. Your W has hurt she burried for years. Again, nothing you can do about the past. Work on you.

Originally Posted By: JonF

Anyway, I'm seeing so much conflicting advice that I'm still pretty dadburn confused. Lots say stay "friends" and you'll maybe win them over - others say put your foot down and don't tolerate it. Is it a personality thing based on W? Or is it a combination of both - make clear how wrong A is, and then be courteous when interaction is required because of kids?

I position is you should act friendly ane be mysterious. Let your W lead any talk and never get upset (remember ducks back). You must have bounderies and enforce them. Example - No OM talk around you, etc. You decide what they are.

Originally Posted By: JonF

I guess I feel like there are only two options, and believe there's gotta be a better third option:Option 1: Be hard-core: do not accept it, file divorce, take down all pictures, take off ring.

Option 2: Smile, and get shat upon, and just be there through thick and thin (smells like cake-eating?)

Option 3: Man Up. Have courage and honor. Be strong and patient. Be friendly but don't pursue. Smile, be funny, confident, work on your word usage. Get some new clothes, go out and build your social network. Get out and talk to people. Learn to manufactor conversation with strangers (when you start doing it, you'll see why it's important). Find YOU! When you W takes one step toward you, take 1/2 step back. That should keep you busy for a while! Time is on your side.

Thanks (((((Amy)))))) for stopping by - I left you a comment wondering about you!

I think I'm getting there - I'm just the type of person that has to play everything out to see if I can imagine the best scenario.

It is a very confusing situation. W forwards me texts from OM, acts very weird and pushing me away, and then later on she sends me and kids cute little texts about the Sound of Music. How are you supposed to have any consistency of response to that? I know, shame on me for liking the little positive things.And, if you so desperately wanted a divorce, and I offer one, why wouldn't you take it?

Sigh, if only someone would send me a letter with explicit instructions.

Amy,I think you nailed it for me - I have to completely get any care or concern out. I don't think I can stop loving her, but you're right - she is not being a friend if she is willing to hurt me, hurt the kids, and deliberately break apart our family. I heard W say "You don't respect me" (hah!) - and, after much reflection, I think it's because she thinks I don't respect her wishes to leave.

Just typing those words makes my stomach feel funny - I'm so worried that the OM and her will work out, even though it's highly unlikely, but you know what? That's life, and as someone else so nicely put it, "You never have to wake up in their shoes" .

Otherwise, what else do I have to lose? Keep clinging, and forever tear off any feelings W might have?

Here is my plan - feel free to comment:

1. Took off my ring - it was a symbol of my wife's love and commitment, and that's not there. I don't do it in spite, I simply am making a statement, and it is a 180 for me.

2. Completely dropping any comment on divorce, relationship, affair, OM - this will be a HUGE 180 for me. I'm a professional temperature taker.

3. No communication except as necessary for kids - maybe an occasional funny story about the kids, very light stuff

4. Refuse any more silly arguments - validate, express concern, listen to anything, but not respond. "Mmhmm, yes, I hear you, I understand"

5. Look good!

PMA alert - I have lost 22 pounds, and I walked into a client's office this morning - hadn't seen in two weeks, and she said, "Boy you've lost weight!" She said "From the back, I can't even tell it's you!"

I think I'm getting there - I'm just the type of person that has to play everything out to see if I can imagine the best scenario.

The WAS will keep throwing you for loops. It's like temp taking on her end. There will be NO logic. Get grounded on your end. Dig in.

Originally Posted By: JonF

It is a very confusing situation. W forwards me texts from OM, acts very weird and pushing me away, and then later on she sends me and kids cute little texts about the Sound of Music. How are you supposed to have any consistency of response to that? I know, shame on me for liking the little positive things.

And, if you so desperately wanted a divorce, and I offer one, why wouldn't you take it?

Get used to it. W will flip flop all the time. You called her bluff by offering D and she didn't take it. That's a good sign.

Originally Posted By: JonF

I heard W say "You don't respect me" (hah!) - and, after much reflection, I think it's because she thinks I don't respect her wishes to leave.

She's telling you what she needs. These are her emotions and they aren't right or wrong. Maybe you discounted W in the past and she burried it. Maybe you did it without knowing. Also, understand the W may be using the wrong words to describe her crys for help. Maybe "respect" means validating, discounting, listening...etc. Respect is a vague word. You need to change yourself here. Maybe, tell her she's right.

Originally Posted By: JonF

Just typing those words makes my stomach feel funny - I'm so worried that the OM and her will work out, even though it's highly unlikely, but you know what? That's life, and as someone else so nicely put it, "You never have to wake up in their shoes" .

That's right. If she's happy then good for her. In your eyes this is NUNYO (none of you businss).

Originally Posted By: JonF

Here is my plan - feel free to comment: Took off my ring - it was a symbol of my wife's love and commitment, and that's not there. I don't do it in spite, I simply am making a statement, and it is a 180 for me.

What is your goal in doing this?

Originally Posted By: JonF

2. Completely dropping any comment on divorce, relationship, affair, OM - this will be a HUGE 180 for me. I'm a professional temperature taker.

That's the ticket!!!! Very good.

Originally Posted By: JonF

3. No communication except as necessary for kids - maybe an occasional funny story about the kids, very light stuff

4. Refuse any more silly arguments - validate, express concern, listen to anything, but not respond. "Mmhmm, yes, I hear you, I understand"

PMA alert - I have lost 22 pounds, and I walked into a client's office this morning - hadn't seen in two weeks, and she said, "Boy you've lost weight!" She said "From the back, I can't even tell it's you!"

Goal with the ring is this: I have said from day 1 (August 2006) that I was a family man, committed to marriage, never allow divorce, blah blah blah - I beat on W for months about "commitment" and all that, which meant diddlysquat to her. Unfortunately, I didn't read DR until well into this. I have pushed commitment, and why don't you honor your marriage, and I never gave her any feelings, just paperwork and promises. I haven't stopped believing in promises, but since W wants to feel, it just pushes her away.

Maybe I'm misguided, but I wanted to show her that I'm "letting go." I'm certainly not available - I don't know, maybe there is a better way to show her? I feel like the ring is punching her in the eye, though. Maybe that's me being a wimp and cowing down though. Sheesh!

Explain to me "work on word usage?" I thought it was because of my text abbreviations, but thinking you mean something else?

Certainly. When you've been with someone for so long they know when your faking. Maybe your faking validation or your mad but trying to hide it. Even if your an expert in controlling your emotions and voice inflection, your word usage will be a dead giveaway.

Here's an example. You may use the phrase "I don't care" when you don't agree with something your W does but you're "taking one for the team".

Instance: W says, "You mind if I have dinner with the gals tonight?" You've worked all day, have a headache, your tired and don't really want her to go. But you know she needs a break too. You decide to take one for the team. You respond, "I don't care". Your W knows that is your standard response when you really mean, "I care, I don't want you to go, I'm going to be mad if you go". This triggers emotions w/ in your W. This causes her to be uneasy and she can't enjoy her time out with the gals. Then the night is no benfit to anyone.

Now, if you used the phrase, "No, I don't mind at all. Enjoy your night and have a margarita for me". This will not cause any emotional triggers for W. She will enjoy her time out, be more appreciative and relax more.

In addition, you'll be more interesting to W. Think about the people you enjoy talking too. Not only are they good speakers but they use intersting words. They don't repeat the same phrases often. They chose the right words. YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO THEM. This will also help you grow as a person.

This doesn't mean grab a dictionary and pick out the most obscure word you want find. It means, change your standard responses and phrases, unless, it's an inside thing between you and your W.

The last example sucked so I'll try something simple.... W: "Want to go to the movies tonight". Jon: "OK"

See how boring and uninteresting that response was? Now think about how interesting a response like "absolutely, I would love to, gladly, certainly, I would like that" sounds. It's just more engaging.

This may seem trivial to most, but I have found this little growth excercise is very valuable in interacting with anyone. Think of it as a PMA.

Goal with the ring is this: I have said from day 1 (August 2006) that I was a family man, committed to marriage, never allow divorce, blah blah blah - I beat on W for months about "commitment" and all that, which meant diddlysquat to her. Unfortunately, I didn't read DR until well into this. I have pushed commitment, and why don't you honor your marriage, and I never gave her any feelings, just paperwork and promises. I haven't stopped believing in promises, but since W wants to feel, it just pushes her away.

Jon, I'm calling your bluff. Right now, if you were in front of God, would the ring be on or off? Your entire quote is laced with feeling toward your W. What do YOU think about the ring? What does it mean to you? If the ring is on or off, your married. The ring is symbolism.

Yes, you pushed and pursued. That is the old Jon. What does new Jon think? Are you still a family man and committed to marriage?

If she had a prob with the ring, it's HER problem. A strong, honorable, confident man makes no qualms as to "why" he wears (or doesn't) his ring. Make the decision for you and where you are. To me, taking off the ring means your ready to walk away from this. But you have to mean it.

Originally Posted By: JonF

Maybe I'm misguided, but I wanted to show her that I'm "letting go." I'm certainly not available - I don't know, maybe there is a better way to show her? I feel like the ring is punching her in the eye, though. Maybe that's me being a wimp and cowing down though. Sheesh!

If you take it off because you ARE letting go, then I see no issue with taking it off. You better mean it. The last thing you want is to be putting it on and taking it off all the time.