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IVEATCH

Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:38 PM

IVEATCH

Kommando

Goffz

986 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Southern California

Army Name:Goff

The new hoard rules (along with combat reform) make Black Orcs a viable option, in my opinion. Large anti-deathstar spells such as Pit of Shades and Dwellers Below can be hard on a big block of Black Orcs, however. I've run a unit of 44 typically six wide. But I can go hoard formation (ten wide) against big tough units (such as ogres). I've found that the Banner of Swiftness is a helpful add on to this unit.
The main negative, high point cost. The big positive, this unit is tremendously fun to play!!

IronShark

Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:10 PM

IronShark

Dreadsock Enforcer

Nobz

4,353 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Calgary, Alberta

Army Name:WAAAGH Morgrim!

8th Edition in general is vastly more balanced than mid to late 7th. I've found that any army has at least a chance against every other army, unlike 7th where if you weren't VC, DE, or Daemons, you didn't have a chance against VC, DE, or Daemons.
Orcs are respectably mid-level, and "Codex Creep" hasn't been much of an issue in 8th, so hopefully they'll continue to be decent. Orc Big 'uns are one of the most cost effective Core choices in the game IMHO. Animosity has been toned down, and the Choppa rule now applies to EVERYTHING, including magic weapons, instead of just generic hand weapons.
Black Orcs I think are a solid choice. I'm building a unit of 40 with Grimgor Ironhide. They definitely have a role in the army, being the only unit able to put out S6/7 attacks.

Being a winner is easy if your definition of victory is flexible enough.

Mik McMok the Mek

Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

Mik McMok the Mek

Flash Git

Boyz

1,050 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Ireland

Army Name:Mad Miks motor'eads

I'd agree re Black orcs and espescially Grimgor Ironhide, the guy still rocks and with the black orcs cheaper it is a good central unit for any mixed orc gobbo army list.
Some other things also are now worthwhile, horde army rules make masses of Goblins a worthy option cheap and with steadfast rules, they can do a lot of damage. With the new rules for sneaky stabbing it makes Goblins nearly as good as night goblins and the wolfriders are now boosted by the new hero choice to make them even better as fast cavalry archer units.
Trolls and giants also are so much better with stomp rules applied and the Savage orc upgrade makes the giant almost as good as a chaos giant rather than a poorer cousin.
New improved snotling pumpwagon upgrades are worth checking out
Goblin shaman are cheap and some great spells now including the signiture spell and posibility to steal dice from your opponent...sneaky sneaky...
Lets face it, goblin bowmen in the old rules where pretty much a waste of time, but with new rules for hordes and for archery they now become worth consideration...and then there is the new stuff such as manglers ect... not only some great models but worthy chaos on any battlefield.
For a while, i gave up on my O&G army and focussed on my Orks but now i am getting back into it.

When all else fails PanicIf that doesnt work...then you know you are up to your neck in it!

IronShark

Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:07 PM

IronShark

Dreadsock Enforcer

Nobz

4,353 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Calgary, Alberta

Army Name:WAAAGH Morgrim!

Orcs have a lot of very solid units. The only units I'd say are straight up bad for their points are boar boyz and snotlings. On the other hand, we don't have any really over the top units either. The fact that not only do we have a huge number of options, most of those options are respectable, makes Orcs and Gobbos easily the most varied army to actually hit the table top.
The only thing keeping Orcs and Gobbos out of the "top tier" of tournament competitiveness is that we don't have a handful of stupid over the top combos or simply under-pointed units. But the new books seem to be rolling those kind of things back. EG, new vampire book, took away all the old 'Power Builds', by increasing the points of ghouls, taking away the Weapon Skill 7 Grave Guard, and changing "Master of the Black Arts" and "Forbidden Lore."
I haven't played them a whole lot, but VC seem to be about on par with O&G. Hopefully GW can keep this up. And if they do, we may actually see O&G rise in relative standings as they take away stupid things like Sac Dag 7+ dice Mindrazor.
The new Empire book is coming out soon. Although I have no interest in playing Empire, I'm really eager to read it to see if/how they've resolved some of their issues.

Being a winner is easy if your definition of victory is flexible enough.

Mik McMok the Mek

Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:43 AM

Mik McMok the Mek

Flash Git

Boyz

1,050 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Ireland

Army Name:Mad Miks motor'eads

Havent played snotlings myself, though ive been tempted. I presume they are like grots in 40k and useful to tarpit an opponent by sheer weight of numbers. They might not be able to take out their big leaguers but the can tangle them up and wear them down, perhaps use them as a shield wall to protect other units ect. Useing these type of 40k grot tactics may make snotlings a viable unit to choose perhaps?

When all else fails PanicIf that doesnt work...then you know you are up to your neck in it!

IronShark

Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

IronShark

Dreadsock Enforcer

Nobz

4,353 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Calgary, Alberta

Army Name:WAAAGH Morgrim!

Snotlings are a 'swarm', and all swarms have the unstable rule, which means they take a wound for every point they lose combat by. Any unit worth tying up will dispose of them extremely quickly.
There are a couple different ways to tie up units with Orcs and Gobbos. One is to throw disposable units like Wolf Riders right in front of the target, aligned to that they'll over-run in an odd direction. Yeah, the wolf riders will die, but the unit will have spent a turn killing them.
Alternately, a large unit of Goblins, particularly Night Goblins with nets + shields (parry save), can hold up a lot of units for a long time. Steadfast means they ignore combat res modifiers. Keep the general and BSB in range, and they're not likely to run, especially if the general is in a unit with the +1 Ld banner, for a Ld 10 Orc! So you can effectively have Ld 10 Stubborn Gobbos. With the nets upgrade, Night Gobbos can be very good at multi-turn grinding. And you can go Horde to help start throwing the pain back.

Being a winner is easy if your definition of victory is flexible enough.

Dribble Joy

Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

Dribble Joy

Manik

Bad Moonz

2,275 posts

Gender:Male

Location:New Sarum

Army Name:Nuggruz's Iron Klads.

Black Orcs I think are a solid choice.

Really?

They seem to be 'advertised' as a heavy infantry unit, but they function far from this - at least compared to other army's elite units.
The extra armour is almost useless - anyone with S5, even those with S4, which is just about everyone - you hardly get any armour or one that's of any noticable benefit, why bother with shield and choppa when you can double your attacks or get S7 in the first round? A 5+ save is hardly worth paying the points for.
They might have dropped a point in the new book, but they are still more than double the cost of regular boys. Compared with the cost of Phoenix Guard or <insert elite unit> they are either still woefully overcosted and/or underpowered.

I run a 'Black Orc' army (spider rider core units on the flanks), but most people tell me to run a counts-as Chaos Warriors list.

Mik McMok the Mek

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

Mik McMok the Mek

Flash Git

Boyz

1,050 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Ireland

Army Name:Mad Miks motor'eads

Thanks for the update on Snotlings...they are cool though! I play Black Orcs and a mainly goblin army, artillery, NG spearmen Spiderriders/Wolfriders with possible giant or Trolls and maybe a wolf chariot depending on points but rarely bother with shields on my B Orcs.

When all else fails PanicIf that doesnt work...then you know you are up to your neck in it!

IronShark

Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:27 PM

IronShark

Dreadsock Enforcer

Nobz

4,353 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Calgary, Alberta

Army Name:WAAAGH Morgrim!

I've only recently started Orcs in WHFB (though I've been playing FB for a long time now), so I may not be a an absolute expert.
When I say Black Orcs are a solid choice, I don't mean they're an absolutely amazing choice, or a must have, but that I think they're more or less worth their points. I would say Big Uns in general are much more cost effective, so I would definitely only take Black Orcs after you've already taken your one unit of Big Uns.
The extra armour isn't a big deal, no. It can be helpful sometimes, so don't discount it entirely though. It's more about the better WS, and the access to Great Weapons. The ability to switch to two hand weapons is an occasionally useful option, but mostly it's about the great weapons.
Outside of characters and the Giant, they're the only unit in the Orc Book that can throw out S6 attacks, S7 on the first round. The ability to maintain a strength higher than 4 past the first round can be huge against certain opponents. They fulfill a role a little different to other Orc units, namely hitting like a ton of bricks. They're also immune to animosity without having to take an expensive Black Orc character, and they're one of the few ways we can get a magic banner in the army; which makes them one of the few ways to get Flaming in the army, in case Hydras, Abominations, trolls, crypt horrors (and Mortis Engine in general) are something you see regularly (which I do).
Grimgor Ironhide is worth talking about when talking about Black Orcs. With +1WS and Hatred, the Black Orcs go from being decent to being downright badass, and Grimgor himself is no slacker.
The unit probably most in direct competition with Black Orcs is Trolls. While Trolls don't get the S6/7, they do maintain the relatively high S5 for multiple rounds, and Vomit in case the reason you're looking for high strength is to counter Armor saves. The downside is that they need to be babysat by the general and BSB, and space in the leadership bubble can be at a premium in an O&G list.
I tend to play a low magic, low shooting, aggressive list. That's my preferred style of play, and Grimgor and a big block of Black Orcs fits that perfectly.
Also, they look really cool.
As for comparing them to other units, I'm not going to deny that some other choices clearly outshine them. Bloodletters for example. But Bloodletters clearly outshine pretty much everything.
Grave Guard with Great Weapons are the same points, Tomb Guard w/Halberds are 1 point more, but we have higher WS. Yes, they can be brought back, but that takes a spell, cast by an expensive character. We can cast spells too. Black Orcs can also march. In my experience, unbreakable/unstable isn't really an advantage in 8th. I'd say Black Orcs are pretty comparable.
Phoenix Guard's 4+ ward is pretty awesome, but they're also only T3, and only one S4 attack, and they're more expensive. If you math-hammer it out, 20 Phoenix guard, 5 wide, vs 25 Black Orcs, 6 wide, is the same points and an extremely close fight.

Being a winner is easy if your definition of victory is flexible enough.

Full_Blooded_Ork

Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:11 PM

IronShark

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:23 PM

IronShark

Dreadsock Enforcer

Nobz

4,353 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Calgary, Alberta

Army Name:WAAAGH Morgrim!

I haven't played with Gorbad. His main thing is he acts as both General and BSB, and has an 18" range for both. Which is potentially pretty awesome. The somewhat sad thing is, because he's so valuable as BSB/General, and because he's not particularly tough, you don't really want him in combat. So the 'optimal' way to use him is buy the cheapest 'bunker' unit for him and keep him out of the fight. Which seems somewhat wrong for the most successful Orc ever.
If you're going for max competitiveness, a Lvl 4 Wizard is pretty much standard for every single army in the game, with Orcs as no exception. Any of the expensive special characters will suffer from competing with a Caster-Lord for Lord points. If you're playing larger games (or you just don't care about absolute max competitiveness) you can fit them in.

Being a winner is easy if your definition of victory is flexible enough.

Full_Blooded_Ork

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:12 AM

Full_Blooded_Ork

'Ard Boy

Boyz

894 posts

Army Name:Ork Mob

I haven't played with Gorbad. His main thing is he acts as both General and BSB, and has an 18" range for both. Which is potentially pretty awesome. The somewhat sad thing is, because he's so valuable as BSB/General, and because he's not particularly tough, you don't really want him in combat. So the 'optimal' way to use him is buy the cheapest 'bunker' unit for him and keep him out of the fight. Which seems somewhat wrong for the most successful Orc ever.

If you're going for max competitiveness, a Lvl 4 Wizard is pretty much standard for every single army in the game, with Orcs as no exception. Any of the expensive special characters will suffer from competing with a Caster-Lord for Lord points. If you're playing larger games (or you just don't care about absolute max competitiveness) you can fit them in.

I just love the model, but didn't want to get one if he's that bad. Glad to hear he's playable. Plus I was thinking about the army of big un's!

IronShark

Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:39 AM

IronShark

Dreadsock Enforcer

Nobz

4,353 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Calgary, Alberta

Army Name:WAAAGH Morgrim!

I don't have a lot of experience with the Shamans. I prefer to go low magic. I'm currently using low level Night Goblin shamans. Their bonus mushroom dice let me hammer the odd spell through. Every now and then they'll totally screw my own magic phase, but because I've invested points in more/better Boyz, I hopefully won't ever really need a spell, the way some other armies can really need a critical spell.

The Savage Orc shaman has access to a magic item that ups the ward save on Savage Orcs to a 5+, so that guy in a unit of Savage Orc Big Uns is pretty awesome.

Back to Gorbad, I'd say how cost effective he is depends largely on the points level. At 2000pts or less, I'd say he's not worth it. At 2500pts, I'd say he's not optimal, but not terrible. At large point games, he starts looking pretty good.

Being a winner is easy if your definition of victory is flexible enough.

Mik McMok the Mek

Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:38 AM

Mik McMok the Mek

Flash Git

Boyz

1,050 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Ireland

Army Name:Mad Miks motor'eads

I would tend to concur with IronShark. If you are bothering to take Black orcs then go for Grimgor. Not only is he hard as nine inch nails, he adds to the overall strength of his "Immortalz" Black orc unit. I never field Black orcs without him as my general.
Other HQ choices would be a suitable hero choice with BSB, usually a Night goblin Hero with Bad Moon Banner, and loads of cheap level one goblin/NG mages. they are cheap and expendable and the goblin magic is pretty good, plus you get the chance to steeal power dice from the opponent for successful casts.
Im now trying out the new hero choice for Wolf riders and a unit of howlers, a good upgrade for the unit and a good choice for fast archers.

When all else fails PanicIf that doesnt work...then you know you are up to your neck in it!

GreatEscape_13

Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

GreatEscape_13

Grot Rigger

Boyz

179 posts

I've felt they've been very solid under the new edition, and as a book overall. They've got all the aspects of the books that will keep them competitive despite being one of the first new codexes. They're solid in every phase (field a Doom Diver and see just how devastatingly accurate and destructive to heavy cavalry it can be). They've got great variety.
Only drawback? The O&G magic item list is a burning diaper full of Indian food bad.
But overall, you should have a good experience if you trot out O&G!
And yes, Black Orcs are nasty business.
Cheers.

Mik McMok the Mek

Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:52 AM

Mik McMok the Mek

Flash Git

Boyz

1,050 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Ireland

Army Name:Mad Miks motor'eads

LOL
"Only drawback? The O&G magic item list is a burning diaper full of Indian food bad. "
Well said i love some of the old magic items, but it seems the trend is for limited magic items in the codex and more use of standard magic items from the rule book, which i wouldnt be too fond off.. it loosing that element of chaotic madness that is so much a part of O&G .
Leave the overkill magic to the likes of dark elves and Vampires i say, let the O&G have mad inventions that blow up in their faces and can be really good but also really bad at times.

When all else fails PanicIf that doesnt work...then you know you are up to your neck in it!