gypsymonkey wrote:So is a turn key camp open to the public then? As I understand it, all theme camps must have open access to at leas a part of their camp. Sorry if this has been answered in the last 23 pages, I have a little project planed and was just curious.

Not necessarily open to the public.

A Turn Key camp simply means a camp that provides an unusual amount of infrastructure for their members at a high price. (Examples of these over-the-top Turn Key stuff: RVs delivered on-playa, bikes, or costumes chosen for you.) Turn Key camps are not necessarily placed. A wealthy, cushy camp could locate itself way out on 3:30 and L street. But a lot of them probably try for placement because having a location on the inner streets, closer to the Esplanade and the Man, can be a selling point. And Turn Key camps are motivated to profit, not just break even.

Some Turn Key camps try to offer something to the public and get placed, some don't. A wealthy camp that genuinely offers a lot to the public is different than a camp that makes a wall of RVs and buses and offers nothing to the city.

This is what the Placement team is looking for when they place a camp:

* Camps should be visually stimulating.

* Theme Camps must be interactive. They should include activities, events or service to the Burning Man Community in general. We are most impressed by the new and unique camp plans we receive. In most cases creating a chill dome with music and relaxation is not enough to receive placement. Some camp members should be at your camp at all times in order for your activities to be as accessible to others as possible.

* The placement registration questionnaire goes live mid-February and the deadline for submission is the end of April. See http://forms.burningman.com for exact dates in a specific year. In order to be eligible to have your camp placed, you mustregister before the deadline, upload a digital file of your Camp Layout Plan within the questionnaire, and make a comprehensive Leave No Trace pledge within the questionnaire.

Remember "theme camp" has two overlapping and confusing meanings. One is "placed theme camp"--that is given space by placement, mentioned on the map or in the WWW, generally the gold standard of in-city entertainment. The other is just "camp". If you ask yourself which is actually meant by any given statement, before getting upset, you might save yourself some trouble.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

No need to read the 23 pages of posts - if you read the blog I'd previously linked, and possibly the earlier posting they reference in that entry, you should be able to get the idea.

Whether a camp has a theme or not, and whether they're registered or not is completely independent of whether they provide any kind of infrastructure to campmates. A camp meeting the definition turnkey as specified in the guidelines mentioned in that blog post can choose to submit a questionnaire and request placement, but they're not given any special consideration. If they get placed, it's on the merits of what they're bringing to Black Rock City just like any other applicant.

You know, a year later and this still irks me. I just watched some video where a bunch of p'n'p folks sit around with the BMorg managers and justify their existence, and it made my skin crawl the whole damn time. A caterer was talking about how she has a hard time getting people to pick up their plates, and her partner bemoaned the fact that he can't get his "clients" to refill a steel water bottle instead of grabbing a plastic one.

Here's the deal guys: your "clients" don't GET it. And thanks to you capitalizing on everyone else's event like it's fucking Disneyland, they don't have to- and they never, ever will. Until they have to drive home with their trash, figure out how to keep food fresh for a week, cook without making a mess, be uncomfortable and rely on themselves instead of their money FOR ONCE IN THEIR GODDAMNED LIVES all the cathartic, transformational things that you are selling to these bastards is never, ever going to happen. Meanwhile, the rest of us are fucking background performers in your merry little parade. I don't WANT to be a themed character in your fucking parade. I'm not here to entertain your "clients." But that's part of what you assholes are selling: ME. And my family, and my friends, and EVERYONE ELSE because you've packaged us and SOLD us to you pathetic "clients" as part of the "experience." So now, at the event that has been a part of my family's life for 15 years, I'm the fucking "help" whose job is to amuse your "clients."

And the BMorg talking about how to support this shit so it isn't a drain on services? Fuck it. DON'T. No vendor passes, no deliveries before gate unless you're a PARTICIPANT with early arrival, no RV dumps, no water service. You're a vendor trying to beat exodus? Fuck you. Wait in line, you fucking parasite.

The WORST WORST WORST part of this conversation is them talking about their giant ass art cars and world class DJ's and TEDx like they're doing the rest of us some sort of fucking favor by doling out the scraps to the rest of us pleebs who can't afford the big toys.

Fuck you. If you can't play by the rules, take your toys and go home. I don't need your plastic Barbie dreamhouse, I'm totally content with these rocks, a stick, and this fire- because I make my happy, I don't try to fucking BUY it. Maybe you should try it sometime.

OH- one final note. If you're a catering company acting like the fucking park plaza of burning man to make a living? Fuck you. How DARE you call yourself a burner and talk about everything you've learned from Burning Man- you haven't learned a goddamned thing.

jenn nelson wrote:You know, a year later and this still irks me. I just watched some video where a bunch of p'n'p folks sit around with the BMorg managers and justify their existence, and it made my skin crawl the whole damn time. A caterer was talking about how she has a hard time getting people to pick up their plates, and her partner bemoaned the fact that he can't get his "clients" to refill a steel water bottle instead of grabbing a plastic one.

Here's the deal guys: your "clients" don't GET it. And thanks to you capitalizing on everyone else's event like it's fucking Disneyland, they don't have to- and they never, ever will. Until they have to drive home with their trash, figure out how to keep food fresh for a week, cook without making a mess, be uncomfortable and rely on themselves instead of their money FOR ONCE IN THEIR GODDAMNED LIVES all the cathartic, transformational things that you are selling to these bastards is never, ever going to happen. Meanwhile, the rest of us are fucking background performers in your merry little parade. I don't WANT to be a themed character in your fucking parade. I'm not here to entertain your "clients." But that's part of what you assholes are selling: ME. And my family, and my friends, and EVERYONE ELSE because you've packaged us and SOLD us to you pathetic "clients" as part of the "experience." So now, at the event that has been a part of my family's life for 15 years, I'm the fucking "help" whose job is to amuse your "clients."

And the BMorg talking about how to support this shit so it isn't a drain on services? Fuck it. DON'T. No vendor passes, no deliveries before gate unless you're a PARTICIPANT with early arrival, no RV dumps, no water service. You're a vendor trying to beat exodus? Fuck you. Wait in line, you fucking parasite.

The WORST WORST WORST part of this conversation is them talking about their giant ass art cars and world class DJ's and TEDx like they're doing the rest of us some sort of fucking favor by doling out the scraps to the rest of us pleebs who can't afford the big toys.

Fuck you. If you can't play by the rules, take your toys and go home. I don't need your plastic Barbie dreamhouse, I'm totally content with these rocks, a stick, and this fire- because I make my happy, I don't try to fucking BUY it. Maybe you should try it sometime.

OH- one final note. If you're a catering company acting like the fucking park plaza of burning man to make a living? Fuck you. How DARE you call yourself a burner and talk about everything you've learned from Burning Man- you haven't learned a goddamned thing.

Out of sheer curiosity: are these plug'n'play camps marketing themselves to the outside world as, say, a hotel would? "Come stay at Burning Man in a pre-prepared RV with costumes, bikes, etc. Only $10,000!"

Or is it more word-of-mouth? "My buddy is bringing RVs to the burn this year, do you want to rent one on-playa?"

A girl wandered into my camp last year complaining about how she'd spent all this money to get an RV delivered to the playa for her and it turned out to be a piece of crap that was uninhabitable. This was before I knew of plug-n-play camps, so I was a little confused at the time. Then, when I got back, I saw a girl's virgin video compilation posted on YouTube and it clearly showed her skydiving into Burning Man and then going straight to a pre-prepared RV. I was shocked.

Bless wrote:Out of sheer curiosity: are these plug'n'play camps marketing themselves to the outside world as, say, a hotel would? "Come stay at Burning Man in a pre-prepared RV with costumes, bikes, etc. Only $10,000!"

Bless- YES. Like a fucking club med of the playa.

A girl wandered into my camp last year complaining about how she'd spent all this money to get an RV delivered to the playa for her and it turned out to be a piece of crap that was uninhabitable. This was before I knew of plug-n-play camps, so I was a little confused at the time. Then, when I got back, I saw a girl's virgin video compilation posted on YouTube and it clearly showed her skydiving into Burning Man and then going straight to a pre-prepared RV. I was shocked.

Man, I would have probably thrown a warm PBR at her. Fuck her, "uninhabitable" my ass. There are people who pick through her trash in the default world who would KILL for that RV to call home. THAT bullshit right there is why we shouldn't have P'n'P camps. I have no tolerance for people who think that they are personally more important than the rest of us because they inherited/married a pile of cash or cheated the rest of the world so they could have more than their fair share.

jenn nelson wrote:You know, a year later and this still irks me. I just watched some video where a bunch of p'n'p folks sit around with the BMorg managers and justify their existence, and it made my skin crawl the whole damn time. A caterer was talking about how she has a hard time getting people to pick up their plates, and her partner bemoaned the fact that he can't get his "clients" to refill a steel water bottle instead of grabbing a plastic one.

Here's the deal guys: your "clients" don't GET it. And thanks to you capitalizing on everyone else's event like it's fucking Disneyland, they don't have to- and they never, ever will. Until they have to drive home with their trash, figure out how to keep food fresh for a week, cook without making a mess, be uncomfortable and rely on themselves instead of their money FOR ONCE IN THEIR GODDAMNED LIVES all the cathartic, transformational things that you are selling to these bastards is never, ever going to happen. Meanwhile, the rest of us are fucking background performers in your merry little parade. I don't WANT to be a themed character in your fucking parade. I'm not here to entertain your "clients." But that's part of what you assholes are selling: ME. And my family, and my friends, and EVERYONE ELSE because you've packaged us and SOLD us to you pathetic "clients" as part of the "experience." So now, at the event that has been a part of my family's life for 15 years, I'm the fucking "help" whose job is to amuse your "clients."

And the BMorg talking about how to support this shit so it isn't a drain on services? Fuck it. DON'T. No vendor passes, no deliveries before gate unless you're a PARTICIPANT with early arrival, no RV dumps, no water service. You're a vendor trying to beat exodus? Fuck you. Wait in line, you fucking parasite.

The WORST WORST WORST part of this conversation is them talking about their giant ass art cars and world class DJ's and TEDx like they're doing the rest of us some sort of fucking favor by doling out the scraps to the rest of us pleebs who can't afford the big toys.

Fuck you. If you can't play by the rules, take your toys and go home. I don't need your plastic Barbie dreamhouse, I'm totally content with these rocks, a stick, and this fire- because I make my happy, I don't try to fucking BUY it. Maybe you should try it sometime.

OH- one final note. If you're a catering company acting like the fucking park plaza of burning man to make a living? Fuck you. How DARE you call yourself a burner and talk about everything you've learned from Burning Man- you haven't learned a goddamned thing.

Wow, what a post. I think it's safe to assume that you speak on behalf of a lot of people lurking on the P&P threads.

The camp with a differenceNever mind the weatherWhen you camp with Plug & PlyYour holiday's forever

There are a few operators out their plying their posh travel trade, but it's less than most people think. And since the turnkey camping guidelines went out a year and change ago, the operations that really don't bring anything to the table have been getting zapped. Thanks in part to the combined efforts of the placement team, outside services, IP team, and Burning Man's legal department... which comes in addition to the help of the Bureau of Land Management. Any operation whose business touches the playa (water delivery, RV dropoff, hauling camp gear, yurt-building, meal and bike commerce camps, air travel operators, selling jellyfish, etc) are on the hook for 3% of revenues, and skirting that responsibility is a federal violation. This year, the BLM also added the requirement that such businesses also obtain a BLM permit.

jenn nelson wrote:You know, a year later and this still irks me. I just watched some video where a bunch of p'n'p folks sit around with the BMorg managers and justify their existence, and it made my skin crawl the whole damn time. A caterer was talking about how she has a hard time getting people to pick up their plates, and her partner bemoaned the fact that he can't get his "clients" to refill a steel water bottle instead of grabbing a plastic one.

The only thing about that which irks me is that perhaps those BMorg managers want to pretend that they don't promote such things. Money talks, but at least the people taking it should admit to it.

Here's the deal guys: your "clients" don't GET it. And thanks to you capitalizing on everyone else's event like it's fucking Disneyland, they don't have to- and they never, ever will. Until they have to drive home with their trash, figure out how to keep food fresh for a week, cook without making a mess, be uncomfortable and rely on themselves instead of their money FOR ONCE IN THEIR GODDAMNED LIVES all the cathartic, transformational things that you are selling to these bastards is never, ever going to happen.

Meh, don't prattle on about your trials and tribulations at Burning Man like you've really suffered in your life. What I'd like to see is some people "get" it and stop believing that these mundane labor trivialities are some sort of walkabout process on the playa. Do you arrive at some cathartic epiphany in your life when you clean your toilets? When you fill up gas in your car? When you take a dump at an outhouse? No? So what makes the same kind of mundane labor shit "cathartic" at the playa?

Transformation doesn't come from packing out your trash bags at a festival in the desert; it comes from what you get from the event. If these PnP people change to whatever "better" state despite their life of comfort, that's transformation too.

So let's stop with this jealousy being paraded around as "getting it." Get over yourself. You don't get it. You're wrapped up in this lame Puritan view that redemption only comes from labor. You're feeling pious and riteous in your actions, and getting riled up because the neighbors aren't buying your view of the "experience" at Burning Man.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are fucking background performers in your merry little parade. I don't WANT to be a themed character in your fucking parade. I'm not here to entertain your "clients." But that's part of what you assholes are selling: ME. And my family, and my friends, and EVERYONE ELSE because you've packaged us and SOLD us to you pathetic "clients" as part of the "experience." So now, at the event that has been a part of my family's life for 15 years, I'm the fucking "help" whose job is to amuse your "clients."

Cut the hypocritical shit. We're all actors and audience members in this entire event. You get as much from experiencing everyone else as the person who paid $10,000 to enjoy it. Are you somehow more entitled to enjoy such things?

And the BMorg talking about how to support this shit so it isn't a drain on services? Fuck it. DON'T. No vendor passes, no deliveries before gate unless you're a PARTICIPANT with early arrival, no RV dumps, no water service. You're a vendor trying to beat exodus? Fuck you. Wait in line, you fucking parasite.

As opposed to whom? All the other camps that get early arrival, set up, and basically do nothing but attend to their members? So their dues are less. So people bring their own tents. There's really not that much difference.

How many camps with EE actually bring something to the playa for this lofty "participation" quota? Does a camp bar count? An open chair? Someone giving out granola bars? A DJ booth? What is the standard here? Or is this just another bunch of whining about the RVs that are such an affront to your gaze?

What I want to see is BMOrg acknowledge their role in these commercial activities. They play innocent, but if they're actually showing interest in facilitating commercial camp operations, this needs to be made public so that people who think they "get it" start to "understand it."

The WORST WORST WORST part of this conversation is them talking about their giant ass art cars and world class DJ's and TEDx like they're doing the rest of us some sort of fucking favor by doling out the scraps to the rest of us pleebs who can't afford the big toys.

Oh, and here you were bitching about being show for others to observe. There are literally an infinite number of other things you can be doing at BM. Really, get a life and find something else to do. For every private party there are hundreds of public parties that are far grander.

Fuck you. If you can't play by the rules, take your toys and go home. I don't need your plastic Barbie dreamhouse, I'm totally content with these rocks, a stick, and this fire- because I make my happy, I don't try to fucking BUY it. Maybe you should try it sometime.

The rules are that people pay for their tickets, clean up their messes, and don't rely on other people for their services. These camps satisfy these requirements perfectly. Everything else at BM is a blank slate. Make the most of your canvas and stop wasting your time concentrating on what you don't like in how other people burn.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

I've been trying to figure out why Jenn's comments didn't hit home, and why BBadger's seem to miss the point on the other side of the target.

The central thing seems to be all the things that Burning Man is not that make it special, and how that can be disrupted by introducing those absent elements. One thing I have observed about Burning Man is its lack of the class system evident in the default world (mostly). Paupers and kings can share experiences in a way that is impossible in the default world (mostly).

A few months ago, I went to a "community dinner" ostensibly for everyone, but largely for the poor. I just went to eat, to see what it's like, and to try and be "part of the community". It was ... embarrassing. I felt like I should not have taken that food for free. I make too much money to eat free food. I was treated like a hobo, and largely ignored. It was very unpleasant. But if the same circumstance existed at Burning Man — where I was far wealthier (in the default world) than the people who were giving me free food, the pretense is missing and I have no issue.

Where I grew up we had a stream with its own ecosystem (partly natural and partly from man-made runoff). It had snails and crawfish and frogs and algae all in some kind of balance. It was fascinating to watch. I enjoyed showing other kids that stream. But what if one of the kids came and chlorinated the water and removed all the ecosystem to make it better? You could swim in it with far less risk of diseases, and you could probably even drink the water. But it would be different. The part that was important was that it was not chlorinated and that it was alive.

Which to me is like plug-and-play campers at Burning Man. They are introducing financial hierarchy in a place that was special because it devalued financial hierarchy. They bring the attitude of entitlement for the rich.

...

On the other hand, one of my favorite lines from that Twitter feed "Shit my dad says" (is it still around?) where he was complaining about somebody who was mean to him and his dad said something like, "you don't go to the park and set up your picnic right next to a pile of dog shit".

So really, the PnP campers largely don't affect me. But the way they are affecting me is by changing parts of the event that I think make it very special.

jenns is certainly the 'feel good' post, its real easy to get behind a post blaming someone else for perceived problems ..but it missed the mark in terms of, well.. everything bbadger replied with

bbadgers post is not a 'feel good' post, and it's hard to get behind it, true or not, because the one it blames/questions is us/ourselves and the thing we like: BURNING MAN (more-so its organizers, who many people seem to trust very much) ......

yeah, all those RVs and plug and play campers are RUINING BURNING MAN ....!!! woo hoo!!! says the crowd

but whats so special about RVs and plug and play camps that fend for themselves within the rules that burning man organizers have written out and allowed to happen? WHAT? FUCK OFF, STOP ASKIN THOSE QUESTIONS

i think theres a bigass truckload of blinders that this community uses on some topics, handed out to many involved: this is likely one of those topics.

its so easy to find the easy to blame target: plug and play camps themselves

but really damn hard to look at the real problem: ourselves for not holding the organizers accountable for what theyve allowed and demanding transparency for a system that (judging by the positive reaction to jenns post) many people dont seem to like.

one is easy: we can just laugh and blame someone else while enjoying our little camp and pounding twenty foot long stakes into the ground

the other, not so much: its our fault, as the community that built this business which facilitates these camps, and the onus is on us to see something, and say something' and maybe even, to change our opinions of the people whos role is the stewardship of the event that we seemingly hold so dear

nobody wants to do #2, or even acknowledge that #2 is an option, or, that it is even reasonable..... its wayy easier to blame it all on the camps themselves... cuz you know, they dont get it.

One thing that Jenn might not have thought of is that the clients of P&Ps like to dress sexy and show off. They consider themselves included in putting on the show. Nothing wrong there. It's just that their camps in general are not presented as being part of the big show that is Burning Man in a way that makes us feel really involved. I don't want to get into how Plug & Ply will be different in that regard because I've bragged enough, so I'll just leave it at that.

The camp with a differenceNever mind the weatherWhen you camp with Plug & PlyYour holiday's forever

Obviously, everyone is TOTALLY JEALOUS of your bitchin' 40 foot RV and your indentured servants. "Why can't all you little, insignificant people let us rich pretty people do whatever we want? We're so FABULOUS, we make everything we touch better! YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE THAN YOU!!!!"

Dude, I wouldn't want your shitty life for anything. When your idea of a community participation is to troll the boards of the community you claim to want to be a part of then whip out your insecurities by talking about "grand parties" that us pleebs pale in comparison to and how we're being pious puritans...man, you must get awfully lonely when the hookers leave.