Monday, July 25, 2005

Cassandra

The
Economist offers this appraisal of the literary journey of Oriana
Fallaci.

There is nothing al-Qaeda would like more than for Europeans to turn on
Muslims in their midst, uniting fundamentalist militants with those who are
neither fundamentalist nor militant. In that sense, Osama bin Laden won yet
another victory this week with the publication of another hate-filled,
anti-Islamic diatribe by an Italian writer who has become noted for such
diatribes: Oriana Fallaci. Over the past three years, the 76-year-old Ms
Fallaci has carved out a role as the voice of what might be a new European
racism ....

The
Digital Divide warns us in particular against her new book "Il Nemico che Trattiamo da
Amico" (The Enemy we Treat as a Friend).

Excerpts from Oriana Fallaci's "Il Nemico che Trattiamo da Amico" (The
Enemy We Treat as a Friend") are being circulated online: they make it seem
like a manifesto in "Defence of the Christian Western World", which was so
dear to the colonels who imposed their dictatorship upon Greece in 1967-74. However, the full article (1) irresistibly evokes Louis-Ferdinand Céline's
Bagatelles pour un massacre, in a more violent tone: same stereotyping, same
obsessiveness, same rambling prolixity praised as literary talent by their
fans. But Céline's writing was more controlled.

As a consequence of her writing, the
Guardian reports Fallaci may be in real trouble.

A radical Muslim leader, Adel Smith, told the Guardian he was bringing a
civil action for damages against the writer and journalist Oriana Fallaci. He
has already succeeded in getting Ms Fallaci committed for trial next year in
criminal proceedings for blasphemy. Last month a judge in the northern Italian
city of Bergamo agreed that the 76-year-old Ms Fallaci should answer to claims
of abusing Islam in her book The Strength of Reason. Since then, her cause has
become a rallying point for mainly rightwing intellectuals and politicians in
Italy and the US, where Ms Fallaci lives.

Article continues Mr Smith said he would be seeking damages for libel on
the grounds that the author had claimed in a recent essay that he had issued
death threats against her. Ms Fallaci, who is ill with cancer, could not be
contacted for comment.

"The Enemy We Treat as a Friend" does not seem to be posted online, except in
Italian. But a circulated email contains extensive excerpts in English
translation, parts of which are quoted below without vouching for the accuracy
of translation. (Hat tip: K) Fallaci seems to take the position that a hostile
civilization has entered Europe and that the clashes cannot long be delayed. She
finds scant difference between 'moderates' and 'extremists' in "The Enemy we
Treat as a Friend". Fallaci argues that her warnings to a city under siege
have been vindicated by events yet society refuses to see what this
implies.

Yes, it's true: In newspapers that in the best of cases pharasaically
opposed me with a conspiracy of silence now appear titles using my concepts
and words. - "War Against the West."; "Cult of Death"; "The Suicide of
Europe"; Wake up, Italy! Wake up!" Yes, it's true: Though without admitting I
wasn't wrong, the ex-secretary of the Democratic Left now submits to
interviews in which he declares that
"these-terrorists-want-to-destroy-our-values"; that
"this-slaughter-is-facist-in-nature-and-expresses-hatred-for-our-civilization".
Yes, it's true: In speaking of Londonistan ... are now saying what I did
when I wrote that in each one of our cities exists another city. A
subterranean city; equal to Beirut when it was invaded by Arafat in the 70s. A
foreign city that speaks its own language and observes its own customs; a
Muslim city where terrorists go about their business undisturbed and, thus
undisturbed, plan our deaths. ... Yes it's true: Now, even the fifth
columnists and the imams express their hypocritical condemnations, their
mendacious loathing, their false solidarity with the relatives of the victims.
Yes, it's true: Now, thorough searches are being made in the cases of the
accused Muslims; suspects are arrested; perhaps it will even be decided to
expel them.

But in substance, nothing has changed. ... I am also troubled because it
goes along with, and thereby reinforces that which I consider the error
committed by Papa Wojtyla: not to fight as much as he should have, in my
opinion, against the illiberal and anti-democratic - no, cruel - essence of
Islam. During these last four years, I have done nothing but ask myself why a
warrior like Wojtyla, a leader so singular who contributed more than anyone
else to the downfall of the Soviet empire and, therefore, of Communism, showed
himself to be so weak towards a disease worse than the Soviet empire or
Communism. A disease that, above all, targets Christianity (and Judaism) for
destruction. I have done nothing but ask myself why he did not inveigh openly
against what was happening (and is happening), for example, in Sudan where the
fundamentalist regime was practicing (and is practicing) slavery. Where
Christians were eliminated (are eliminated) by the millions. Why he was silent
about Saudi Arabia where anyone with a Bible in hand or a cross around his
neck was (and is) treated like a scum to be put to death. Still today, there
is that silence I don't understand ...

Will the massacre touch us too? - will it really touch us the next time?
Oh, yes. I haven't the slightest doubt. I've never had the slightest doubt.
I've been saying this, too, for the last four years. And I add: They have
not yet attacked us [only] because of their need for a landing zone, a
bridgehead, a handy outpost named "Italy." ... But soon, they will go on a
rampage. Bin Laden himself has promised it - explicitly, clearly, precisely.
...

To all appearances Fallaci pulls out the stops and regards Islam itself as an
imperalistic enterprise, bent on conquest and incapable of coexistence with
others. In her phrase it has obtained "a bridgehead" in preparation for further
advances. The Belmont Club pointed out that the problem with this
argument is that Muslims themselves are the most frequent victims of Jihadi
violence; and the second that Muslims comprise the most numerous allies of
America against organizations like the Al Qaeda. By turning Islam into a black
box, the inside of which we are unable to understand or alter, Fallaci dooms the
conflict into an external clash between two irreconciliably opposed
civilizations. There is no significant room for an Islamic liberation movement.
Fallaci expects nothing from within Islam itself. The "bridgehead" builds from
Islam outward. No counter-landing is possible within the Ummah.

But even if Europe finally confronts "the monster with honor, courage; and by
remembering the words that Churchill said to the English when he went to war
against Hitler's Nazism," as Fallaci puts it, the history of the Balkans
suggests that the West would pay a price so high it would be wounded for
centuries. Medieval Serbia was once a pinnacle of Europe in the mid-14th
century. But after their defeat by the Ottomans
Serbia
fragmented into brooding ethnic enclaves. And in the end it was not defeat which they could not transcend, but the smallness of mind which they learned day by day, in the atmosphere of unending mutual suspicion. Serbia never rose to its height again.

Since the Ottoman Empire was an Islamic theocratic state, Christian Serbs
lived as virtual bond servants - abused, humiliated and exploited.
Consequently they gradually abandoned the developed and urban centers where
mining, crafts and trade was practiced and withdrew to hostile mountains
living on cattle breeding and modest farming. ... This historical defeat of
this Christian Empire against the invading Muslims has however, produced
numerous legends, poems and stories that have preserved the Serbian distinct
nationality for the centuries to come under Muslim rule, with the Serbian
Orthodox Church being the "guardian of the medieval times".

The danger of waiting until the cultural divisions grow too great within the
West is that any struggle fought to preserve its values is bound to destroy them
in the cataclysm.
Mark Steyn shows how the process of destroying tolerance in order to save it
is already happening.

That's the great thing about multiculturalism: it doesn't involve knowing
anything about other cultures ... Instead, it just involves feeling warm
and fluffy, making bliss out of ignorance. And one notices a subtle evolution
in multicultural pieties since the Islamists came along. It was most
explicitly addressed by the eminent British lawyer Baroness Kennedy of the
Shaws, QC, who thought that it was too easy to disparage "Islamic
fundamentalists". "We as western liberals too often are fundamentalist
ourselves. We don't look at our own fundamentalisms." And what exactly would
those western liberal fundamentalisms be? "One of the things that we are too
ready to insist upon is that we are the tolerant people and that the
intolerance is something that belongs to other countries like Islam. And I'm
not sure that's true."

Hmm. Kennedy appears to be arguing that our tolerance of our own tolerance
is making us intolerant of other people's intolerance, which is intolerable.
Thus the lop-sided valse macabre of our times: the more the Islamists step on
our toes, the more we waltz them gaily round the room. ... tolerance of
intolerance gives an even more intense frisson of pleasure to the multiculti
masochists.

The saddest thing about Steyn's brilliant essay is that he understands that
multiculturalists don't even want to know Muslims as people; whether they bleed
from car bombs; whether they look up at the sky and long to rise with the wind.
Those who would disparage Oriana Fallaci's monolithic portrayal of Muslims
should remember how happy some Liberals are to have Muslims as cardboard cutout
figures on their own dilapidated historical stage. When on September
12 President Bush vowed "to find those folks who committed this act" -- many commentators laughed at the word "folks" -- he
may have intuitively understood that the War on Terror would be waged not
only on the battlefield, but for the hearts of men. But it is precisely
this redemptive aspect which we are so unwilling to believe in; so willing to
mock. I think Auden came nearest our own opinion of ourselves in his classic
poem,
September 1, 1939.

I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return. ...

Faces along the bar
Cling to their average day:
The lights must never go out,
The music must always play,
All the conventions conspire
To make this fort assume
The furniture of home;
Lest we should see where we are,
Lost in a haunted wood,
Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good. ...

82 Comments:

Oriana Fallaci sees more people stopping by Rick's. They are starting to spread the message the Mohammedans are coming, the Mohammedans are coming!I would suggest she stay here in the US, blasphemy being a guaranteed right amongst US. As to rendition to an Italian court, well another ancillary reason not to ratify the ICC.Stay here in the US, Ms Fallaci and enjoy the winds of freedom while you can. You are welcome here.

"... Instead, it just involves feeling warm and fluffy, making bliss out of ignorance."---Hewitt's guest from CAIR was more than happy to oblige those pursuing continued ignorance, insisting there were no radical Imams in our Mosques, then showing he knew the details of the examples Hugh's callers came up with, in order to "refute" the charges.The folks that want to continue to feel superior to Hugh's audience only have to continue to accept the lies as truth....and ignore small items like his refusal to declare that Israel has a right to exist.

W, your blog really is a wonderful resource and the comments written by your readers are so interesting. It really is the best. At the risk of embarassing you, and getting my hands slapped (which I can take), I would like to remind readers and participants that contribution to this site will only help it keep going and get better.

Does declaration of war by 7th Century thinkers/warriors require 7th C tactics & strategy?Oriana:"But the(y) will be ready by the 2006 elections--the elections they want to see won overwhelmingly by pacifism. And of us, I fear, they will not be content [just] to massacre people. Because this is an intelligent and well-informed Monster, my dears. A Monster who (on our dime) studied in our universities, our renowned colleges, our luxurious schools. (With the money of their parents; be they sheikh or honest day-worker). A Monster who is not only knowledgeable about engineering, chemistry, physics, airlines, and subways: he is also knowledgeable about Art. Art, that their presumed “Beacon of Civilization” has never known how to produce. And I think that, along with our people, they want to massacre come work of art. How hard would it be to blow the Cathedral of Milan or Saint Peter’s Basilica sky-high? How hard would it be to blow Michelangelo’s David, the Uffizi, and the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence--or the Palace of the Doges in Venice--sky-high? How hard would it be to blow the Leaning Tower of Pisa--a monument recognized in every corner of the world, and therefore even more famous than the Twin Towers--sky-high?"

Is this what we arewaiting for? Wonderif the NYT will make ahit on any of these sitesas horrific as the lootingof Bagdah Museum? For answer reread MarkSteyn's column.Hint: Oriana's sitesproduced by whiteEuropean - hardlymulticultural enought!

The crazy thing is that Oriana's prediction of an outrageous attack in Western Europe is probably going to come true. Some museum, cathedral, school or performance hall is going to get hit in the coming months or years. Why not? Osama's mind is dirty enough for anything.

But its the ergo from that probable event that is really slippery. For the the Left, the 'therefore' will be "therefore we must give Osama what he wants". For others it will be "therefore we must put every man jack behind the wire". It's like being trapped in a manic-depressive state. One of the ironic things about reading Milblogs based in Afghanistan or Iraq is how little undirected bloodthirstiness their authors have. They have Muslim friends. They have Muslim enemies. That almost sounds normal.

In contrast the syllogisms with 'All' and 'Every' and 'For Each' acquire an insane absolutist edge into which it surprisingly easy to fall. The real tragedy of the current ideological debate is that blocking common sense action makes people paint themselves into 'final solution' corners.

A third previously unknown Islamist group has claimed responsibility on the Internet for the bomb attacks on Egypt's Sharm el-Sheikh resort in which at least 64 people were killed.

The claim by the Tawhid and Jihad Group in Egypt could be more credible as it was posted on an Islamist Web site often used by the al Qaeda Organization in Iraq, but it was not possible to verify the authenticity of the undated statement.

What americans don't quite understand about europe is that they are their own indians. when they dig in the soil and find arrow heads--those arrowheads were made by their own ancestors. When they go to the mountains and find rock drawings--those rock drawings were made by their own ancestors.

The europeans will not give up their birthright any more than the chinese or the japanese would in the same situation.

However, given the nature of the problem and reality of politics--this cannot end smoothly. It must end badly. There will come a day when Europe in some great spasm will expell all moslems.

This is nothing new. they have done this sort of thing before.

The big thing that americans must ensure--is that these moslems expellees return to their countries of origin.

If they come to the USA they will murder this country--as it will be filled with mortal enemies of the type who kicked them out and humiliated them-- white christians and jews.

It has been some time since you've chose a bit of poetry to bring a post to a close. I'd almost forgotten how pleasant it was. I've never been much of a poetry reader, but I've always liked your choices.

Generally I never liked The Economist's politics, but it seems that post-7/7 many former BDS sufferers have shocked out of the worst of their symptoms. They've also achieved a clearheaded view of the true 'root causes' of terror.

Quote: "[Jihad] is not a program, really. It’s a wraparound justification for a violence whose real end is the expiation of shame through massacre,” says BBC editor Mark Urban :End Quote

Islamic beliefs may be unique to Muslims, and perhaps they may complicate an already complicated situation, but shame is part of the human condition. If shame, and other human frailties, are understood to be the 'root cause' of terror, then Islam is off the hook.

"Ergo", all humans are capable of terror (another Belmont thread) so we better find a solution that works for all humankind. Oh wait, we've already got that: democratic liberalism. Better get the Middle East a double dose of that, stat!

ADE:Multicult Demands it be you.---"A seminar at the UK's (BBC sponsored) technology conference 'Open Tech 2005' (organised by the fantastic 'Need To Know' (NTK) team as a follow on to last year's "Notcon 2004"event) posed the question 'Where is the British EFF?' The answer, as prompted by those attending the seminar was, of course 'Nowhere! So why don't We create it?'A PledgeBank page was set up within a few hours (available here) which states that the pledging person will donate £5 (GBP) per month to the support of a British EFF-style organisation provided that 1000 others also agree to do so. There is considerably more information at Danny O'Brien's Oblomovoka.

The more viciously they attack Oriana Fallaci, the more obviously her prophecies will be seen to be fulfilled. The islamist attack dogs and their servants on the left are perfect illustrations of the point Ms. Fallaci is making.

She is shaping herself into a martyr for western civilisation, a very public martyr who will rally millions to her cause. The decorticate, reflexive attacks against her only make her more powerful.

The duties of islam are quite clear all througout al qur'an. Read it and weep, or read it and act. People can dream all they want about islamic reform but the words of the text are not going to be deleted or altered, and as long as economic and political inequity can be blamed on the other side, the conflict will rage. The qur'an makes it quite clear who is to blame for said inequity, after all, isn't that what infidels do? Oppress, exploit, blaspheme??

"[GWB] may have intuitively understood that the War on Terror would be waged not only on the battlefield, but for the hearts of men. But it is precisely this redemptive aspect which we are so unwilling to believe in.

Yes it is in the hearts of men that this war will be mostly waged. And who can change their heart easily? Especially when that heart has been filled with rubbish for 1,400 years.

I see the Imams on television. The good ones are lost, lost souls. Bewildered, they issue statements that are now decried by the media -correctly, because the statements miss the point. They just don't get it.

They sense what is happening to their religion is its death, and will cause the physical death of many of its believers. But they cannot walk away. Too much has been invested.

One must distinguish between belief and make believe. Sadly, Islam is make believe, and now the physics of the situation has caught up with it.

Just think of the advancement the Mohammedans have already made, culturally, in just the last decade.They attempt to muzzle Ms Fallaci with Courts and legal processes. Salmon Rushdie, another writer that blasphemies Mohammedism was sentenced to death in an Iranian fatwa. What progress they are making.Don't worry, be happy. There may be hope yet.

The more terrorist attacks, the more fuel for the National Front, and other like groups. If there is a tipping point, where the majority demands action, then it will be a ripe moment for such a group to step forward and take the reins. It was such a situation that brought Hitler to power in the 30s - the government appeared helpless, and a strong dictatorship took over.

History may repeat itself again, but with different circumstances leading to the same end conclusion.

And that's what rather ironic about the whole Bush Derangement Syndrome - if we don't liberalize the Middle East, then true fascism may return.

At least they did not amputate their hands.A long drop, short rope. Do death sentences deter crime?Only Mohammedans know for sure, but you'd think that anti Capital Punishment crowd in the 'West' would be up in arms over public hangings in Iran.What were the 'root causes' of those young men's road to the gallows?As rick ballard posted yesterday, perhaps we should take a page from their book. I doubt, though, that anyone will be dancing the jig in England over those London bombings.Such a shame

re Anointiata Delenda Est's comment "Yes it is in the hearts of men that this war will be mostly waged. And who can change their heart easily? Especially when that heart has been filled with rubbish for 1,400 years."

The thing that most hinders an Islamic "Reformation" is the Qu'ran itself. There is no getting around the fact that any movement to deligitimize Jihaad and terrorism is necessarily a movement to deligitimize Islam itself. The use of violence to advance Islam is central to Mohammad's life.

"Moderate" Islam does not get the funding -- it's radical Islam that gets funding by the "Golden Chain" organization.

What do the wealthy sheiks seek to gain from radicalism? They seek to gain power, the power of the "Old Man of the Mountain", the power to visit death upon anyone who displeases them, wherever they may be. From this power will come additional wealth, more power, and more status (status seems to be very important in Arab culture).

The sheiks realize that the oil won't last forever, and their rising populations need an outlet. Traditionally, that outlet has involved wars of conquest. The danger involved in openly waging war against the West is obvious, so their war must be covert and their involvement deniable. They must intimidate the West into giving in to their demands, as the path of least resistance

notice the guy with the video camera? I can't wait for blog tv. Oh the short clips we'll see then.The fellow on the left seems to be quite unhappy, dispair would seem an adequate word.I doubt that Richard Reid looks so down beat, he is in line for three hots and a cot for the rest of his natural life. His crimes make theft and inciting public disorder pale in comparison. What a benevolent land we live in.

Wretchard,You are correct up to a point. I liken the state of Islam today with the condition of Germany in the 1930's. In the early years of the Nazi party, only a very tiny minority supported Hitler. Most Germans were indifferent, some were silently in opposition, a very small minority actively opposed the Nazis (and were at risk of being assaulted and killed for their temerity.) Once Hitler gained momentum, he still had only a minority of support but the opposition remained silent and he eventually was able to gain power; the outcome was predictable in the mid-1930's but the Churchills of the world were marginalized and rejected.Today, a small, vocal, powerful community actively supports violent Jihad against the West (and against "apostate" Muslims). A large minority (a majority in some places) vocally and financially supports al Qaeda; a large, silent majority takes some pleasure in seeing the "arrogant" West humbled by 9/11 & 7/7 attacks. At this point, a small part of Islam is struggling to modernize and reform their religion. We should all hope they succeed but time is against them, and us. Every attack on the West, especially another attack on the scale of 9/11, makes further polarization of the West versus Islam more likely (an outcome only desirable to al Qaeda, as you suggest.) This is why the information war being fought in our MSM is so crucial. We need to "name" our enemy; we need to maximize our chances of establishing a functioning democracy in Iraq, and we need to expose and delegitimize those who support our enemies. We need the time to achieve this and the MSM works against us in both undermining support for the war effort and undermining our efforts to protect ourselves at home. Fallaci may indeed be alarmist and extreme, however, she forces the key question that no one here can answer, and no one in Islam has yet been able to answer: Is Islam compatible with liberal democracy? Obviously, many Muslims support democracy and tolerance; is that enough? I would suggest that we will not know this for some time and every success by al Qaeda makes the answer less certain to be in the affirmative.Fallaci is less of a risk than the Imam who is threatening her and is white washed by the Italian media and the Italian legal authorities. Her over-the-top rhetoric is unlikely to become a "self fulfilling prophecy"; what will make the prophecy more likley is our denial that so many in Islam agree with her that they are our enemies. As long as multi-culturism prevents us from recognizing that our culture is worth defending and is better than the 7th century culture being offered in its stead, we will make a greater atrocity more likely; and with each atrocity, the three conjectures gets nearer. To amend my question: Does Islam have enough time, and the will, to reform itself and destroy the culture of Jihad that has been nurtured within it before a disaster occurs on such a scale that a war of civilizations is unavoidable? I do not think we are any closer to answering that question now than we were in 2001.

While Fallaci's writing at time seems "extreme," it never seems -- to me -- "racist." (I know, I know... Islam is not a "race," but I'm adopting the position of her detractors for a moment.)

I get the feeling she would be perfectly happy to acknowledge any movement from within "the Monster" to reform itself. It's just that she doesn't see much evidence of such a movement.

Neither do I.

But I fervently hope both Ms. Fallaci and I are mistaken.

And Wretchard, I continue to be impressed not only by your tough-mindedness and erudition, but by your humane and generous mind, as in this statement:

But it is precisely this redemptive aspect which we are so unwilling to believe in; so willing to mock...

And this observation, from your comment above, also gives one hope:

One of the ironic things about reading Milblogs based in Afghanistan or Iraq is how little undirected bloodthirstiness their authors have. They have Muslim friends. They have Muslim enemies. That almost sounds normal...

This is the core reason that this World War IV will last about as long as the Cold War (WWIII). There will be no changing of existing hearts. At best, in about two generations, say 40 years, freshly minted hearts steeped in freedom will be running things in the Islamic world.

deanDo you belief that the "West' will put up with terror bombings and global unrest for the next four decades, while the Mohammedans bring forth an enlighten generation of leaders?I think that will try our patience. This is not like the Cold War where MAD thinking kept US from acting for years. No, there is no equality of force in this equation. There is no counter balance to our strength, other than our reluctence to use it. How long we remain passive to multiple assualts is an open question, but forty years seems, to me, beyond the reasonable.

Somewhat off topic but within the realm of discussionIn an article at washingtonpost.com announces"A new study by a liberal Washington think tank puts the cost of forcibly removing most of the nation's estimated 10 million illegal immigrants at $41 billion a year, a sum that exceeds the annual budget of the Department of Homeland Security. ... estimate of costs associated with arresting, detaining, prosecuting and removing immigrants who have entered the United States illegally or overstayed their visas. The total cost would be $206 billion to $230 billion over five years, depending on how many of the immigrants leave voluntarily..."

So for half of what Operation Iraqi Freedom costs annually we COULD remove the criminal migrants from our midst. I am not sure that we should, but it Could be done.The costs are affordable, if we were to decide to do it.

Ship of FoolsLet Fallaci be tried in a Sharia court. The outcome would be most telling. It is sad when Western Civilization must hide behind the skirt of an ailing 76 year old lady. Who would be so bold as to welcome unpopularity on the Left and to be marked for death by Fascists? The term “the enemy we treat as a friend” rings of that other famous Italian, Cicero’s oft quoted diatribe on those who would infect the body politic, “The enemy within”;

‘"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.’

The greater danger that Fallaci certainly sees is that we of democratic values would invite unassimilated strangers, who do not share our values, to a place in our governing institutions. The ruling elites selfish desire to make our democracy attractive to foreign interests is an abrogation of responsibility in the protection deserved by the incumbent Westernized populace. A ship of fools will endure its careless ramblings until it is dashed against the rocks of cold, hard reality.

Given that it is Islamists who are attacking the West and seek to destroy western civlization, if this is not to be a war between Islam and the West, it is up to the rest of Islam, and not the West, to make the necessary distinctions and adequately distance themselves and their religion from the righteous anger of the West that will be visited upon those who seek to destroy the West.

In that sense, Orian Fallaci is right, that the crucial question is whether or not Islam is compatible with classical liberal tolerant representative government.

If it is not, there are only two alternatives: either a modus vivendi is reached in which they leave us alone in our world and we leave them alone in theirs -- leaving aside the question for now of what parts of the world are in which camp -- or there is a war a l'outrance.

The former, think of it as the Peace of Augsburg solution (Cuius regio, eius religio), works only if neither side makes signficant efforts to encroach on the territory of the other.

The latter, of course, is all of our worst nightmares, but may well be the likiliest outcome if Islam is incompatible with liberal democracy.

Which brings us back to Oriana's and others' question: Is Islam compatible with libersl democracy?

I am of the opinion that it is up to Islam to convince the West that it is compatible with liberal democracy, rather than for us, as westerners, to bend over backwards to discern some compatiblity.

It's Islam's scripture which has the problematic language, and Islamic doctrine which preaches jihad and the caliphate. If there are Moslems who do not accept the radical interpretations of Islam, and who wish to live in peace with the West, IT IS UP TO THEM TO CONVINCE US IT IS SO.

As much as anyone, I would like to believe this is not a war a l'outrance with Islam. But, from what I've read in the Koran and the history of Islam and its relations with the West, including its treatment of the dhimmi, I am not confident Islam is compatible.

To use an old cliche, I'm from Missouri on this one -- you'll have to show me.

The europeans will not give up their birthright any more than the chinese or the japanese would in the same situation.

Charles,

I disagree. I see the bulk of Europeans as so crippled by senescence, so in love with (for those who are not unemployed) the life of ease promised by the ultimately unsustainable welfare state, and so in thrall to multiculturalism that if their civilization were at risk they would be hard-pressed to defend it. Indeed, anti-Americanism for its own sake as the primary ideology of many Europeans is so intense that I could even see more and more European opinion-makers lining up international support over time for accommodating the "legitimate grievances" of the Islamists. It is this peculiar combination of self-loathing, multiculturalist contempt for the strangers among them and the long-term decline of society and economy that in my judgment makes European Muslims the bull market for jihad.

I don't live there, and most of what I know is only my interpretation of what I read. But that's how it looks to me on this side of the Atlantic.

TCAfter lurking for many months, anxiously checking for new posts, telling many people that Belmontclub has the the sharpest, clearest-thinking writer on the net, I have to speak up.She's right.As a christian, I have a world view that centers around Jesus Christ. I view Islam as a violent counterfeit. The Allah of Islam is not the Jehovah of the Bible. Most of the muslims I've met are unfailingly polite, but the Quran is irreconcilably hostile. A fact bin Laden points out most every time he speaks. I don't know if Mohammed's entire vision was a construct to mobilize Arabs for conquest or a revelation from some lieutenant devil to deceive those who reject the lordship of Christ. (I suspect both) The effect is the same. The adherents of christianity have learned that they can't really advance by force of arms. It was never Jesus' way. It was never NOT Mohammed's.

"(T)he problem with (Fallaci's)argument is that Muslims themselves are the most frequent victims of Jihadi violence." Russians were the most frequent victims of Soviet violence, Chinese of Mao's, Cambodian's of the Khmer Rouge's violence.

1) Just because most victims of our enemy's violence happen to be in some way closer to the enemy in terms of nationality or religion does not in anyway argue that our enemy is more tolerable or any less committed to our destruction.

2) You may be making a distinction that our enemy does not share. Jihadist ideology accuses Westernized Muslims, the Saud family and their supporters, Shias and Sufis of being heretics, blasphemers, enemies of Islam. They are as bad, or in the case of the Shia worse, than the Western 'cross worshipers' and Jewish pig-monkies.

Her style may be bombastic and offensive but Fallaci has a point. While individual Muslims may be fine upstanding Western citizens, as recent polls in Britain show, enough Western Muslims are sympathetic to our enemy to pose serious questions not about integration or assimilation but even simple coexistence. One basic problem is that we can't tell the fanatics from the regular Joe Muslim. And here's the scary part - neither can Muslims, neither can family members of the suicide bombers. How can a society tolerate millions of people when apparently any male between 15-50 can, at any time and without any signs even to those he lives with, transform into a suicide jihad killer? When any Muslim can be a jihadi, suspision of all Muslims is only rational, isn't it?

Not every Japanese was a fanatic Shito-imperialist bent on Asian domination yet we levelled their cities all the same. We blasted them into submission and set about radically changing their culture and their religion. What exactly were our choices?

As to the concept of moderate imams, just remember that *if* they can bring themselves to agree that maybe the Koran could be rewritten to take out the "kill the infidels" parts, they must at the same time acknowledge inside themselves that they will be giving up power. Currently, if it's in the book, it's a "do it or die" situation, with the Imam's being the ones who get to make those sorts of pronouncements.

IF they agree to moderate themselves (on threat of annihilation otherwise) they'll be giving up that authority and therefore that power. Even in Saudi Arabia, the Wahhabi's have sufficient power to do anything they damn well please and the Princes are *not* going to do anything about it. Be a big step to take to give away the stick that makes you a big frog in a small pond.

Finally, different topic, it seems to me that we MUST do something about this tendency of Muslims to abuse our legal system by suing everything and everyone in sight in an attempt to DEMAND respect. I see no reason why someone like Fallaci should be hauled off to court by every pea-brained CAIR-backed nutsoid in a hijab, in what is essentially a campaign of harassment.

Either our legislators need to legislate against this -- enact laws that would, for example, forbid any lawsuits predicated on an "insult to Islam", or we need to start suing the hell back at ALL Islamists and CAIR-types, and/or whenever a Muslim-based lawsuit is lost or thrown out of court a HUGE judgment needs to be socked against the person who brought the frivolous lawsuit in the first place.

Bankruptcy can be marvelous as a way of defining perspective although we'd probably have to listen to a lot of victim-y whining first.

After all the erudite comments are done....it boils down to the fact that hundreds of millions of "them" want to kill us...all of us. Surely, we'll agree, and Fallaci would, also, that some of the Muslims don't want to kill anybody. So there are only a few questions left to us...whether to fight and kill them here in our house, or there in their house. I vote for their house. The second question is a tactical one...how to tell them apart. If we cannot, they those of them who WANT to be distinguised from the murderers have to help us help them, and keep us from killing the wrong people. That's the nut of what's left.

Hunt them down and kill them in whatever numbers, and wherever they are....trying to kill only the bad guys...an impossible task.

The alternative is to let them kill us...in our homes, workplaces...our grandchildren in their playpens...it makes no difference. This is NOT acceptable, period. So, gird yourselves for the fight and courage to us all.

In the end the what will happen will be that the hydrogen research ongoing currently will kill the cost of hydrogen enabling cars driven by water. As well, current research work will kill the cost of water desalination and water trasportation.

the result will be that the habitable size of the earth will double and there'll be a lot more green to suck up carbon dioxide. And the eyes of desert people will lose their squint.

In the end the what will happen will be that the hydrogen research ongoing currently will kill the cost of hydrogen enabling cars driven by water. As well, current research work will kill the cost of water desalination and water trasportation.

the result will be that the habitable size of the earth will double and there'll be a lot more green to suck up carbon dioxide. And the eyes of desert people will lose their squint.

As a believer, I can't condone violence in the cause of Christ, but I am commanded to protect the defenseless. As americans, we are duty-bound by constitution and social compact to defend one another against threats here and abroad. Make no mistake -we are all threatened, both armed and defenseless. The only outstanding question is 'how narrow is our target field?'.

I've stated in other forums that the 1st logical targets are the preachers of violence. Ministers in any religion should not be held sacrosanct. Especially those who bid others to kill and die for their aims.

Like common cents said (I think) "when the mosques of the preachers of hate start blowing up, I'll know we realize we're at war."

Oh, amen, m. But I wonder if His followers among ethnic Jews would be considered Jewish by those who believe Him.

"[Jihad] is not a program, really. It’s a wraparound justification for a violence whose real end is the expiation of shame through massacre,” says BBC editor Mark Urban.

The shame the writer refers to is the shame of the Honor/Shame society. To the member of this kind of society personal Honor is the most important thing in life. To be shamed is to have that honor taken away. In Arab societies the way to restore that honor is to take it back from whoever has taken it away, by killing them if required. Whenever you read the ravings of Hamas, for example, you will always see the words Humiliation and Revenge figure prominantly. This is why.

The Arab Honor/Shame culture is responsible for honor killings and honor rapes. These are things we in the West find incomprehensible.

Not all Honor/Shame societies demand violence in response to Shame. The Japanese Samurai society was an H/S society but its response to shame was suicide.

While it is clear that many actions of the Jihadis are simply revenge and envy, as the writer suggests, I don't think that it explains everything. I think that OBL is a megalomaniac. He wants POWER. Islam is his method for gaining it, most likely because he had no other method and because Islam does lend itself to supremacism and violence.

I do think that Islam can be separated from the H/S nature of the Arab culture. It will require major changes in the Arab societies though and I don't know if there is enough time for them to change before we must respond very harshly to their provocations.

disagree. I see the bulk of Europeans as so crippled by senescence, so in love with (for those who are not unemployed) the life of ease promised by the ultimately unsustainable welfare state, and so in thrall to multiculturalism that if their civilization were at risk they would be hard-pressed to defend it.

///////////////in order for the europeans to pay for the welfare state--and their old age --they have to either reproduce or import more people.

these are really hard facts that are impossible to ignore.

the current regime is souring their view of imported people.

that leaves reproduction. in order to reproduce social and personal courage on a great scale is required. you only get that from religion. when their religion returns so will their historical memory.

then they will kick out the moslems in their midst because the moslems will become symbolic of the decadence they will have eschewed.

the moslems have assumed the part of the arians in the civil wars of the 4th century rome.

the grievous thing is that the USA currently is going the other way. while the USA population is growing at a rate faster than replacement the native white population is growing at a rate that's half of replacement. replacement is 2.x. current white population growth is under 1.

The Valley of Slaughter 30 " 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.///////////////nor would this be the first time that child sacrifice provoked slaughter from neighbors. the caananites were phonecians but the romans called them punic. that's why the roman wars agaist carthage were called the punic wars. the cannanites were cartheginians. the romans were appalled by the cartheginian practice of child sacrifice so they leveled and salted their city so nothing would grow there.

Oh, amen, m. But I wonder if His followers among ethnic Jews would be considered Jewish by those who believe Him.

well actually, the 1st followers of "jesus" were jews, but then it stopped when the early christians sided with rome as not to piss it off, the early christians had 2 opportunity to "continue to be jews" and failed and choose "christianity - followers of christo" as for what they believed, who knows, but all who study that period of jewish history understand that the "messiah" was an earthly king (not son of g-d or g-d) so believing an ass kicking king has shown up for the party aint a sin, just misguided...

jerryWhile I agree we have to hunt the bad guys down and kill them, I am also sure that we can identify the real targets and eliminate them and those that are in their immediate vicinity. We do not have to, at this point, resort to indiscriminate death. The is more to be gained by pinpoint accuracy then by carpet bombing. At this point anyway.

Hydrogen for cars is a blind alley; the most efficient and cheapest sources for hydrogen are natural gas, oil and coal, the very things we are running short of or have to cut back on due to pollution.

The solution is not alcohol of any kind, it's batteries. You can make electricity from far more "raw materials" than can make carbonaceous fuel, and the losses from source to wheels are far lower than with hydrogen.

Just a note, "The enemy we treat as friend" is, as far as I know, not a book, but a long article by Fallaci that originally appeared in the "Corriere della Sera". It could be the beggining of a new book that I'm not aware, but as far as I know her latest book published (and the one that caused all the polemic) is called "The Force of Reason". I've read it and, with the exception of some passages, I didn't think it was all that terrible. Very critical of Islam, for sure, exaggeratedly so at some particular points, and her phrasing is perhaps not always elegant (or PC at any rate). But it's not nearly as bad as Fallaci's more vocal critics argue, and far less dangerous than the war calls by imams in the west which we continue to endorse in the name of freedom of speech.

Wretchard,The on scene bloggers live in a real world, albeit a tough one.The homefront suffers daily assaults of insanity such as Norman Minetta, Dick Durbin, Ted Kennedy, Pelosi, Boxer, and being told we are "mocking" and unworthy if we simply disagree.It does get old.---CAIR BS ARTIST was completely outed by Frank Gafney on Hugh Hewitt today: Transcript will be at radioblogger.IMO it is the most important interview I have ever heard, as he is put on record as refusing to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist as well as other such fine points:AND IF WE CONDEMN HIM FOR ANY OF HIS POSITIONS WE ARE INFRINGING ON HIS FREE SPEECH RIGHTS AND ARE RACIST TO QUESTION HIS PATRIOTISM.(also Israels running dogs, but he does not explicitly put it that way.)

/////////////////I think an interem answer is methanol/ethanol. and maybe even those will account for another layer of fuel...especially for cars.

what I don't think either you or engineer poet are looking at is that the methodologies used for genetics has jumped the fense over into materials research.

what these guys are doing is running thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of simulations of combinations of elements/charges/spins to get cheaper/faster/better catalysts and semipermiable membranes.

When they get something they like they shake and bake.

Its amazing but a company as stodgy as GM is saying that they'll get the cost of a fuel cell down by a factor of 10 from $500 a kilowatt to $50@ kilowatt in 5 years.

Why would the research officials be so confident?

The answer is that whole materials research community has become confident in their methodologies.

In a year or two the same kind of work will begin with water desalination. The research problems are very similiar--except they're scaled up by 1000 times. But in the end they're still looking for faster/smarter/cheaper semipermiable membranes and catalysts.

As to turning the desert green--the technology that will enable it will be a pipe that people stick in the ocean. One end of the pipe will consist of a semipermiable membrane that allows only fresh water through a shark skin (ie no maintenance) semipermiable membrane. after water passes into the pipe some of the water will go into a hopper where the hydrogen will be cracked out of the water and the hydrogen fuel will be used to pump the water inland for 1000 miles at a cost similiar to that of water in Pennsylvania or Ireland or Poland or Tokyo.

This will happen. Its happening now but in a kind of dreamlike fashion. The Global WOT could be ended in a few years if the president said that one of the goals in killing the cost of hydrogen production is to kill the cost of water desalination so as to turn all the worlds deserts green and double size of the habitable planet.

Basically Bush would do to the Moslems what Reagan did to the Russians. Radiacally alter their assumptions about the future.

Charles, everything you're talking about can be done today. You want to turn seawater into hydrogen? Set up a potassium hydroxide electrolysis cell with the electrolyte slightly hypertonic to seawater, and circulate it past a semi-permeable membrane with seawater on the other side. Voila, water goes from NaCl solution to KOH solution and thence to hydrogen and oxygen.

That's never been the problem. The main problem is where to get the energy to drive the electrolysis. I see you have no answers there.

Another problem is the low efficiency of PEM fuel cells. The numbers I'm seeing from the RMI says 60%; electrolyzers are around 70% at this point. Combined efficiency is 42% or less; compare this to batteries at 90%.

Hydrogen is easy to produce from the same fossil fuels we're running out of; if you are starting with sunlight or electricity instead of hydrocarbons, just about every other route except direct photosynthesis or photodissociation has far greater losses than batteries. The "hydrogen economy" is a boondoggle.

Poet, I deleted my text, but here it is again:Quantities Charles, Quantities:That pipe into the ocean must be of a certain size.The size of the semi permeable membrane depends on the flow through that pipe.At the quantities necessary, the semi permeable structure itself becomes highly problematic, and far from maintenance free, even if it was possible to implement it.

Engineer-Poet said... Charles, everything you're talking about can be done today. ///////////agreed. But its way too expensive. The whole point of the work in the next couple years will be to kill the cost.//////////////// The main problem is where to get the energy to drive the electrolysis. I see you have no answers there.

imho this problem will be solved by converting sunlight/water directly into hydrogen rather doing the two step electrolsys biz. There's probably several dozen groups around the world working on this. I've seen progress reports from maybe 6 by typing in photovoltaic research or hydrogen research into google news. But I also think that the problem will be attacked from the other end as well. ie catalysts are being developed which will lower the energy needed to break hydrogen out of its O2 bond. Anyhow that's what the modern labs are working at modeling.

At the quantities necessary, the semi permeable structure itself becomes highly problematic, and far from maintenance free, even if it was possible to implement it. /////////////well the semi permiable membrane would only be at the end of the pipe and stuck out far enough in the ocean so there's a current going by. The rest of the pipe would be made of some material that was coated with sharkoate.

for some friggin interesting reading check out this piece on Sharkote. some guy asked the question: why don't barnicles algae grow on sharks. so he made a material called "Sharkote" that protects ships hulls from barnicles and algae. Seems to me this stuff would work for pipes too. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66833,00.html

Charles: if you think that a catalyst can reduce the energy required to produce hydrogen from water, you are into perpetuum mobile loony-land. ///////////////Well I agree that water--as we know it-- is very very very stable. but water is also very very very mysterious.

here's a piece called The New Mystery of Water that says:

Water was thrust into the scientific limelight this past April, when a team of scientists led by Anders Nilsson from the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center presented evidence that water is more loosely bound than previously thought.

http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/041201_water_bonds.html.................here's another piece called "Water IS Wierd" that says

"We still don't quantitatively understand the physics of liquid water," saysRichard Saykally, a world-renowned chemist at the University of Californiaat Berkeley.http://www.water-consciousness.com/must/must_article30.htm//////////////////////my only point is that there's interesting stuff happening

"the grievous thing is that the USA currently is going the other way. while the USA population is growing at a rate faster than replacement the native white population is growing at a rate that's half of replacement. replacement is 2.x. current white population growth is under 1."

hmmm yes you're right--judging by this link. but even here at the link you provide--the average birth rate among whites in the USA is below replacement. see the quote.

///////////////////////////

The federal National Center for Health Statistics reported that in 2002 the average white woman was giving birth at a pace consistent with having 1.83 babies during her lifetime, or 13 percent below the replacement rate of 2.1 children per woman. This below-replacement level has not changed dramatically in three decades.http://www.isteve.com/babygap.htm

Hey, Poet,I can understand how you might take it otherwise, but I was actually being serious:I am truly interested, and I think you can understand WHY the figures I am interested in are w/AC on.(or at least you will upon reading my greeting)

"well the semi permiable membrane would only be at the end of the pipe and stuck out far enough in the ocean so there's a current going by. The rest of the pipe would be made of some material that was coated with sharkoate."---Charles,Unless I am missing something, it would seem that if you only have the area of the end of the pipe to work with for the membrane, you'd be talking VERY low flow rates, certainly not city/irrigation supply quantities.

Doug said... "well the semi permiable membrane would only be at the end of the pipe and stuck out far enough in the ocean so there's a current going by. The rest of the pipe would be made of some material that was coated with sharkoate."---Charles,Unless I am missing something, it would seem that if you only have the area of the end of the pipe to work with for the membrane, you'd be talking VERY low flow rates, certainly not city/irrigation supply quantities. ////////////////true: the semi permiable membrane hasn't been developed yet that could deliver fresh water in volume at coastal ocean pressures. current semi premiable membranes take a lot of energy/money to force water through the membrane. The focus of research for the next bunch of years is to develop cheap membranes that enable substantial flow rates at low pressures. that's what the computer modeling is about.

I welcome Fallaci as a antidote to the suicidal European PC nonsense,but I also want to disagree and note that many Muslims are already fighting on our side and dying around the world.

The critical thing is to know who your friends are. I visited Afghanistan a month or so ago and stayed for a week in a mud village.I have friends there and so do you.Do not forget, Afghans at a cost of 1 million dead, basically KOed the Soviet menace.Respect these Muslim friends. Friends a half a world away. They have rejected Al Qaeda and need our help. Elections prove that they want to move towards peace and progress. The real battle in the War on Terrorism is going to take place within Islam. In Afghanistan we are already well on our way toward winning, but we must remember who our friends are.

I have not been to Iraq, butit seems to me from the elections and casualties amoung the Iraqisthat we have many "friends" there too, desparately fighting the war on terror.

"Doug said... "In Afghanistan we are already well on our way toward winning, but we must remember who our friends are.""---I just read somewhere that our friends mostly just reside around Kabul:I could not reconcile that with reports of how the election went in widely dispersed areas.---We do have a lot of protecting to do, however, on the Pakistan border areas, so our friends remain free.

I am someguy of the blog Mystery Achievement. I am the one who translated and posted Ms. Fallaci's article. As to the accuracy of my work: I am not a professional translator. The few speakers of both languages who have read it said I did a good job. If I made any mistakes, I am willing to listen and learn from them.

I am writing mainly to comment on your example of what happened to the Serbs under Ottoman rule. I may be completely misunderstanding you, but it almost sounds like you're saying that they would have been better off by passively accepting their lives under shari'a. Are you saying that the destruction of Serbian civilization is the fault of the Serbs? If so, I wonder why you would do so.

Engineer Poet,Please read my 8:47 PM post.I am assuming Prius would take a bigger hit from AC due to the fact that the combustion engine must run all the time for the AC Compressor?...but at any rate, I am just looking for real world figures on it for the reason given in 8:47 PM post.I've read Maintenance on it has been extremely low.Thanks,Doug

Doug: the latest Prius has electric A/C that can and does run off the battery alone. The Hondas don't have this option, and won't until the next .

But this is all off-topic for Wretchard's post. The only reason I'm bringing up energy stuff here is to try to keep the people who decide that something needs to be done from running down conceptual blind alleys or buying into scams. (Ethanol and hydrogen are scams; click through to my blog.)

The answer to the question of whether Islam is compatible with liberal democracy is 'yes, so long as Muslims are willing to reinterpret, gloss over or ignore those passages of the Koran advocating violence against sinners and unbelievers.' This shouldn't be too hard. Christians do it all the time. When was the last time we stoned anyone in the US?

Religious texts are notoriously open to variable interpretations. How did medieval Christians go from 'love they neighbor as thyself' to slaughtering the Cathars? It's all in the interpretation.

The thing about Islam is that it developed out of the same traditions as Christianity, but at a time in history when monotheistic theocracy had taken over the Roman Empire. Islam translated into theory what Christianity had developed as practice. That is why theocracy is a more integral part of Islam than of Christianity. Christianity began as a spiritual rebellion against government, and only later co-opted the government and morphed itself into theocracy. Can Islam do the reverse? Sure. There is no limit to the ability of the religious mind to ignore inconvenient facts. When the Koran's exhortations to conquer and subjugate the infidel become inconvenient, Muslims will learn to ignore them.

As you noted, they didn't look happy in that cage, and could the devil come up for anything fit for the guy w/the video camera?---The thing that struck me was the stark contrast of the Sterile Evil of the black hooded, black gloved hangmen with the very young, clean cut youth in their care.Did you notice the hand in the foreground?...just the fingers, looks almost like a loved one grasping for one last time.Very nice Democracy, that.

They made a movie about that poor fellow tied to a fence and beat to death in Colorado a few years ago.Quite a big deal made about it, as I recall, that killing.Wonder if someone will tell these fellows story on film. Perfect Hollywood story, Homophobic Theologians take over the Government and persecute those outside the Faith.To bad the theologians are Mohammedans and not Christian, would have made a great film.But the could always make it about Christians, inaccurate but true.

Those who argue for toleration of a supposedly moderate Islam will never convince me until they address the ninth sura of the Quran. It's a commission to convert or kill the unbelievers and to use "every strategem" of war to do so; even the sura's milder-seeming passages dissolve into murderous license on close inspection. I'll never believe we can come to terms with Islam as long as the ninth sura is still part of the Quran, yet even commentators on the right ignore it.