Hmmm, what I don't get is OBL targets civillians, gets about 3000-4000. America doesn't target civillians and over 70000 are dead. WTF? Maybe OBL
should learn from the US and not target the civillians, just accidently kill them.

Or we should send in Uncle Sams Misguided Children(USMC) whenever we need something destroyed absolutely positively over night. I don't think the
Marines would have made this mistake.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Hmmm, what I don't get is OBL targets civillians, gets about 3000-4000. America doesn't target civillians and over 70000 are dead. WTF? Maybe OBL
should learn from the US and not target the civillians, just accidently kill them.

.

Well if OBL had a power like the US military at his command you could bet there would be like 300 million dead in the US.

Since this war that was started on false pretenses continues, its my belief that none of the Iraqis killed in it have had a reason to die in it. Even
the ones resisting and those who would be deemed terrorists. They weren't terrorists before this war started as I don't recall reading anything
about IEDs and beheadings going on in Iraq until after March 2003.

When an army attacks civilian areas, there is no way to prevent civilian deaths and injuries and this has certainly been the case in this non-declared
war. In a sand covered land, about the only places to attack are human population zones since there is most likely no such thing as forested areas in
such locations.

All I can really say about this continuing tragedy is c'est la vie. The citizens of the United States and other countries who are a part of the tiny
little coalition who went into this with the U.S. did not choose war. Our politicians did. We couldn't vote on it and never have been able to.
This does not represent me and neither do any of my murderous politicians who initiated this disaster in quest for oil. Its always the civilians,
and most especially the poor, who pay in times of war. The Iraqis are getting it now, the citizens of the U.S. and other countries will get it later
when their economies fully tank and the war escalates to include more areas in the name of money and control over the populations of earth. Think of
Germany's civilians as they were bombed and had six million or so killed as a result of their imperial government's deeds. Such a time will come to
the U.S. as well if not through outright warfare, then starvation.

Incidents like this even when they are not the faults of our troops( after all they target and thing goes wrong ) bring to mind as why the conflict in
Iraq has not been won and will never be.

After all the people that have died in Iraq, the harts and minds of the Iraqi people cannot be won ever.

In a war for liberation and freedom the Iraq conflict has turned into a death trap for our soldiers and an unsafe place for the people that US were
liberating.

The people in Iraq feel resentment and hate after seen what the liberation has done to their country, now they are not alone anymore they have plenty
of fighters from other countries that care less who they kill as long as US is targeted too.

Sad very sad for our troops and for the civilian population.

The situation in Iraq was never a war since the Iraqi people never declared war against the US or attacked US in anyway and US never declared war on
Iraq either.

Claiming that "causalties of war happen" is very unfair and out of context, and the administration used this term more to make sense of the soldiers
that had die than to make an excused of the Iraqi people that had been killed.

Almost 1 year on, the need for bombs dropped from altitude still exists. Says something about how much progress is benig made on the security front. I
would think that bombs are used where it is not safe to send ground troops in there to clear out the place.

Now, before bombs are dropped, it is a heavy responsibility to ensure that the right target is chosen and accurately executed. These are
neighbourhoods !!! All the more reason for good and proper intelligence.

Everyone makes mistakes. Granted. But to say that women and children killed are "possibly" innocent ? That's damn rubbishy.

Sheltering insurgents ? Yup, I know that there are insurgents in that house, so I bomb the hell out of that house togehter with all the women and
children in there. Great !! Got some insurgents out of the way and got some babies who could grow up as potential insurgents out of the way too. Just
great !! They are "possibly" innocent.

The "shock and awe" has lasted almost 1 year. Bombs are still being used in neighbouhoods. So much for that fireworks display last year. So
confident that embedded reporters were the flavour. Now ? No independent press allowed into Fallujah.

The problem is endemic. There are gonna be more families and children hurt. Yup, they should move out. To where ? Refugee camps ? Set up by whom ? A
promise was made many many months ago that Iraq would be a better place for all. Yup, blame it all on the insurgents. But why are there so many
insurgents in the first place ? Why are the car bombs getting bigger larger and more accurate in taking out troops and inoccent civilians ? Why is it
getting worse and not better as the days go by ?? I would agree 2 wrongs don't even come close to making this tragedy right.

The intelligence was all skewed. Overconfidence and pure stubborness (not to mention some may say, OIL) has caused this messy state of affairs.

Just can't believe it. Almost a full year on, the "shock and awe" still results in the necessity for aerial bombs.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Or we should send in Uncle Sams Misguided Children(USMC) whenever we need something destroyed absolutely positively over night. I don't think the
Marines would have made this mistake.

I'm not big on war, and I'm not even an American, but 'Send in the Marines' just sounds sooo darn cool..... I know when they say that not to go
for popcorn

Originally posted by Ritual
Unless I was cornered and had exhausted my options of escape to fight another day, I would then fight while possibly putting my family in harms way.

But its not like there was mass exodus out of fallujah or baghdad or mosul.

They dont care, and their country is such a hellhole to begin with, they coudlnt relocate if they wanted to.

Maybe you are right, and maybe that might be exactly how they felt. I think that in order to stay in a place that you knew was going to be attacked,
you would have decided that this was indeed where you were going to make your last stand.

And the women and children who do run away, who will take care of them when the men all die? This isn't really a country where a single mom can get
welfare, or a part-time job. So they might stay too, thinking that they would be even worse off without the husband to support and take care of them.
And hope, desperately, that the US won't hurt them because they are innocent.

Originally posted by brill
How can you hold elections when so many innocent are dying ?

brill

[edit on 8-1-2005 by brill]

I love it how people who couldn't find their arse with both hands and a flashlight want to criticize, as if they could do better.
There are a lot less innocent dying today than there was before Hussein was in power. Where is your hack crap every time a radical murderer blows up
a bomb and kills dozens in that country? About as many Iraqi police as U.S. soldiers have been killed, yet Iraqi men still sign up. Around 3/4's of
the Iraqi's polled said to go ahead with the elections (although I think it should be postponed a bit, it's their country, not mine).

Another armchair quarterback with nothing constructive to add.

Why should I be surprised? Why should I care? Oh yeah; I don't, I just felt like pointing out the obvious.

Glimpse of reality over, curtains are now shut, go back to being glassy-eyed. I'll not make any more loud noises in the thread again. I'm turning
out the lights, you may crawl back out from underneath the stove again.

Someone asks: What kind of accountability is in order? Ask the family, friends, and neighbors of the innocent civilians who were killed. They may
have some thoughts to share.

How brave to sit at a computer keyboard and pronouce that it doesn't matter: They just happened to be living in the wrong place when the bomb hit.
It's their fault they were killed. They shouldn't have been born in Iraq for Chris' sake! Should'a heard us comin' or the bomb fallin' and got
out'a the way. Stupid Iraqis. They deserve if for being alive, don't you know?

The repetion of the line that "inocents always get killed in war" has become deafening and excuses nothing. It only degrades your sense of the
sanctity of human life and, as a result, promotes more senseless carnage.

Some level of collateral damage is always unavoidable in warfare. The United States military spends billions of dollars on research and high-tech
weapons to minimize it. Compare recent wars to mass bombings carried out in World War II and you can begin to appreciate the difference that has made.
If we didn't care about civilians we'd just carpet bomb all the cities with dumb bombs or nuke 'em. It'd be much cheaper and easier and minimize
our own casualties.

Uh, Dubiosone, this is light years away from the days where entire cities were redused to smoking ruins in war. I know it's really hard to pull for
the U.S. and her attempt to protect herself, destroy the enemy and rebuild the country of her former enemy, but hey, try and give a bit of credit,
huh? The fact the "a" house was accidentally destroyed is amazing, rather than hundreds of houses blown to bits without regard.
I swear, people have become so spoiled.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Uh, Dubiosone, this is light years away from the days where entire cities were redused to smoking ruins in war.

Fallujah?
Was that town not reduced to rubble? Did not innocent people die trying to protect their houses and belongings?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I know it's really hard to pull for the U.S. and her attempt to protect herself,

Protect her from what exactly? If you implying Iraq posed a threat to America before the war, please show how.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
destroy the enemy and rebuild the country of her former enemy,

The only reason there is an enemy is because you walked onto their land and punched them in face, also the only things that need rebuilding are
structures and services that were destroyed as a direct result of the war you're country brought.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
but hey, try and give a bit of credit, huh? The fact the "a" house was accidentally destroyed is amazing, rather than hundreds of houses blown to
bits without regard.
I swear, people have become so spoiled.

This would not be the first innocent structure that has been bombed supposedly "by accident".

The fact that people say "innocence's always die in war; its inevitable" just goes to prove that if you accept to go to war you accept the fact
that you are going to kill innocent people. And if you accept the fact that you are going to kill innocent people then accepting to go to war
automatically makes you a cold blooded murderer and a criminal.

Johnny, go read a bit about the history of war, 20th century style. Heilbronn wasn't given so much time to evacuate the civilians that even the
enemy got away. Neither was London. Fallujah was, and they did.We went nowhere and punched nobody in the face. Your denial of Hussein's guilt
isn't going to drag me into a debate with someone who is, well, in denial of truth. Speaking of truth, who are the "insurgents" fighting against
now, anyway? The Iraqis, not us, per se. Were they to stop fighting against Iraqi independence, we'd be out of there in no time.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Johnny, go read a bit about the history of war, 20th century style.
Heilbronn wasn't given so much time to evacuate the civilians that even the enemy got away. Neither was London. Fallujah was, and they did.

I do quite enjoy reading about history, thanks for asking.
Correct, a large majority of civilians fled Fallujah with plenty of time before the attack, however as I stated quite a few stayed behind to protect
their belongings, which is understandable considering without such belongings these people would have nothing to continue on with. They unfortunately
had to accept American bombs with open arms.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
We went nowhere and punched nobody in the face.

You didn't go to Iraq? You didn't attack it?
If you bothered to read my post correctly you would see that I was referring to the invasion. Unless you believe America didn't enter Iraq with
hostile intend? If so they would have brought flowers instead of bombs.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Your denial of Hussein's guilt isn't going to drag me into a debate with someone who is, well, in denial of truth.

Err, when did I deny Saddam's guilt? He was a monster, but I fail to see what that has to do with the current conversation?

It was up to the Iraqi people to shape their future, dictator or not.
That is why there are laws preventing countries invading other countries simply because they do not like the way that country is governed. Would you
like an outside country to enter America and over-throw you're government simply because they believed it was the “right thing to do"?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Speaking of truth, who are the "insurgents" fighting against now, anyway? The Iraqis, not us, per se. Were they to stop fighting against Iraqi
independence, we'd be out of there in no time.

As far as casualty reports are concerned I would suggest that the resistance is targeting occupation forces and people that help/represent the
coalition.

Also how would Iraq be independent? The U.S military never plans to leave Iraq. The U.S has already stated it wants to occupy four military bases
permanently in post-war Iraq.

Originally posted by brill
How can you hold elections when so many innocent are dying ?
brill

[edit on 8-1-2005 by brill]

I love it how people who couldn't find their arse with both hands and a flashlight want to criticize, as if they could do better.
There are a lot less innocent dying today than there was before Hussein was in power.
...snip...
Glimpse of reality over, curtains are now shut, go back to being glassy-eyed. I'll not make any more loud noises in the thread again. I'm turning
out the lights, you may crawl back out from underneath the stove again.

Its difficult to reply to this given your status here. My post and subsequent comments have been straight forward and of "my" opinion, as are
others. The flashlight comment was unnecessary and violates the very rules that you set forth. I have no desire to engage in some type of verbal
battle with either you or any other board members and to my knowledge I believe that I have not done so. I really enjoy the spirit of debate and the
obvious higher intelligence of the community here. I was saddened by your reply but I can understand your bitterness.

That aside I stand by what I said and I will not argue to agree that Hussein/UBL are evil degenerates.

it's very simple......they got'a get out of Iraq....was not right from the begining and not right now.....(the hole world thinks this)....not just
"most" people in North America......

From the threads i have read....many....many...people are finaly seeing the light and turning against Bush.....(just hope it's fast enough).

But I noticed some are still hanging on to this WAR President and the ideas of attacking countries because "they don't like em".....but one this is
for sure.....Sadam was a bad man, but still did not kill as many as Bush (to this date) and is still continuing on with.

Originally posted by svenglezz
it's very simple......they got'a get out of Iraq....
Your friend Sven

I don't think they can just walk out of Iraq not with the chaos at hand. There are moral, economic and social responsibilities that need attention.
It's a huge mess and the U.S. is trying hard to get either NATO or the U.N. to relieve their larger role and introduce some form of peace keeping (I
would too given the circumstances).

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