Anyone familiar with munitions?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
No. Thermobaric bombs are NON-FAE devices. They use some of the same components, but they are NOT FAEs.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. Differenet people use the terms differently, as the Russians use them interchangably. In the US they deciceded to
make them distinct, which is tricky as some devices which had previously been 'solid fuel air explosive' became 'thermobaric'. Now
'thermobaric' is under political pressure so there's a tendency to go with 'enhanced blast'.

But I think we can all agree that we're talking about volumetric weapons.

Nygdan, I have 2 military munitions experts standing right beside me, one is also a scientist. They BOTH say that FAE's and thermobarics are the same
thing. They also say that it's splitting hairs to call them different, because basically they are the same.

It's confusing because of all the different terms used for these things. My two cents.

Wow, i am sincerely impressed with this ATS, so many responses, and so many nuances, so quickly!

It looks like the Madsen people are relatively accurate, though there is a question of it being a bomb versus an artillery shell, with them calling it
an artillery shell.

www.waynemadsenreport.com...
Although the canister artillery shell is marketed as an anti-land mine fuel-air bomb, its payload can also include the chemicals used in thermobaric
bombs, white phosphorous weapons, and chemical weapons[...]
U.S. military intelligence experts believe the ease at which the Israeli soldier is handling the artillery shell is an indication that the payload
contains light-weight gas and not a fuel-air mixture or thermobaric bomb components

Fortunately, the people that the page have been amicable in answering my questions, so kudos to them for being open.

Originally posted by forestlady
Nygdan, I have 2 military munitions experts standing right beside me, one is also a scientist. They BOTH say that FAE's and thermobarics are the same
thing. They also say that it's splitting hairs to call them different, because basically they are the same.

It's confusing because of all the different terms used for these things. My two cents.

Well when the guys that are developing them call them seperate members of the same family that's good enough for me, and I wouldn't say splitting
hairs. There was a good explanation of why they're different earlier in the thread.

Thermobaric can be termed like that ONLY IF it was talking about a particular way it is used. We know that thermobaric means blast pressure which does
not descride how the thermobaric bombs the americans work so it should not be confined to a single method since it does not describe its process.

The reason it states differently in the some US sources is because they a refering to a different method being used to denonate the bombs.

------

What i have gathered from my sources is a FAE has two explosions. One is set of immediatly which releases the chemicals and the second explosive which
denonates it. The russians termed this as a FAE and along with the source i provided. The thermobaric one seems to detonate before a target and
explodes just after the first explosion

Originally posted by Zaphod58
SITIS and AFRL are Department of Defense chinawhite.

They are american sites using american terms.

Again, just because a car and a truck can be called a vehicle THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

But they both can be termed as vehicles or our happy medium thermobaric (blast pressure) weapons

I don't suppose anyone bothered to check the link I provided which goes into a bit of detail about what people are still discussing? Or did I just
waste my time posting? Maybe I'm on a stack of ignore lists. That would explain a lot actually. Anyway, as I'm probably talking to myself, I'll
just shut up. Sniff.

>>
July 22/23, 2006 -- U.S. military intelligence sources have told WMR that the artillery shell shown below being used by an Israel Defense Force member
in Lebanon, is a type of dual and multi-use weapon the neocons falsely accused Saddam Hussein of possessing. Although the canister artillery shell is
marketed as an anti-land mine fuel-air bomb, its payload can also include the chemicals used in thermobaric bombs, white phosphorous weapons, and
chemical weapons. Thermobaric bombs contain polymer-bonded explosives or solid fuel-air explosives in their payloads. Thermobarics use a fuse munition
unit (FMU) such as that seen on the nose of the Israeli artillery shell. The shell penetrates buildings, underground shelters, or tunnels, creating
such a blast pressure that all the oxygen is sucked out from the spaces and the lungs of anyone who happens to be in proximity. Israel's use of such
"vacuum" weapons has been reported from across Lebanon.

The artillery shell below, with its FMU penetrator, can also be used to deliver chemical weapons, the use of which is also being reported from
southern Lebanon. In addition, it can deliver white phosphorous, a substance that literally melts through skin but leaves clothing relatively intact.
In Fallujah and elsewhere in Iraq, U.S. forces have used white phosphorous on civilians, leaving grotesque corpses as a psychological warfare reminder
to the civilian population to surrender or evacuate an area. The photo from Sidon of a burnt and badly disfigured young Lebanese girl is a telltale
sign of white phosphorous use by the Israelis. Similar photos from Fallujah were shown to this editor by a top investigative reporter for Italy's RAI
television network.

U.S. military intelligence experts believe the ease at which the Israeli soldier is handling the artillery shell is an indication that the payload
contains light-weight gas and not a fuel-air mixture or thermobaric bomb components. WMR continues to receive reports from Lebanon of depleted uranium
shells being used by the Israelis. The New York Times today is reporting that the U.S. is stepping up its delivery of "precision-guided" munitions
to Israel (see article below on Bush administration pre-planning for the Israeli invasions of Lebanon and Gaza).
>>

1. FMUs of the thimble type shown are typically either radar or altitude driven to provide accurate AGL height bussing of the payload. As such and
particularly when also taking into consideration the shape of the 'payload shell' (which is to say hollow container, not an artillery round), this
is not an earth penetrating weapon. It simply doesn't have the hardening or shape or fuze placement to be one. Strike One for the idiot brigade.

2. The diameter of that round, along with it's unique tail fin configuration looks vastly oversized for either 155 or even 203mm howitzer delivery.
Neither of the vehicles shown in the picture are an M109 or 110. To be honest, my first thought was 'mortar bomb' of some kind but the 'wireless
MICLIC' answer also makes sense given the degree to which BOTH SIDES have infested the South with little lethal care packages. Civillian
Interpretive Screwup #Deux.

3. The weapon, if tube launched, is almost certainly shortranged. VASTLY less than the 30km you can expect of the M109 with advanced BB or RAP
rounds. As such, it's utility as a 'random killer of civillians' must be questioned. It is either being deliberately used against them or it is
being employed, exactly as suggested, as a Mine Clearance/ATGW-LAW Suppression device in direct support of the armor teams making the incursions
(1-5km range is quite possible). Now if the Lebanese of Bin J'Bail (sp.) or Naroot (sp.) have placed mines all the way up to within say 100yds of
the perimeter of their respective vils, then I supposed they could be reaping the consequences of what they have sewn. Otherwise, there are a lot
simpler ways to 'empty' a house. Any conventional HE 120mm tank or 155/203mm howitzer round will drop or render structurally uninhabitable most of
the Leb hooches I've seen with a single round. Fuzzy Wogic F-Up #3.

4. There is no pretty way to die. Even a direct hit to one's forehead will leave a bloody scum of charred meat all over the walls for /someone/ to
clean up. That said, Willie Pete and certainly 'Chemicals' all leave trace residues which are both hard to cohabitate with during an occupation and
leave the user nation vulnerable to all kinds of accusations with proof. Frankly, I have no idea why the Israeli's want civillians to flee the area
since the Hezbollah guerillas either had a preplanned evacuation route setup to get the hostages out of the area within an hour or two of their being
taken. Or will used the exodus to 'blend with the crowd'. Either way, the simple fact of the matter is that the Israeli grunts are probably dead
now or seriously wishing that they were. While by putting an airlanded force _behind_ the border area settlements and using armor to drive the
civillians into a killing ground, the IDF could /vastly/ ease their problems by making it clear that for every Israeli taken, 5,000 Lebanese or
Palestinians will die. Even as they effectively depopulate the region of the Home And Hearth Logistics by which Hezbollah thrives 'for free'. This
in turn allowing them to create a DMZ like exclusion zone for manning by robotic minefield or UN/NATO forces. Instead, these Power Puff Wussies are
taking an immense chance that if their two muzzle mutts are in fact alive, they will be smuggled out for no gain by their comrades dying by inches to
come get them. As well as allowing the _real threat_ to Israel's future security inherent to all these nominal 'civillians' (who breed like rats)
the potential to come back after the cease fire and start it all up again. I guess all those steely eyed Killer Jews just aren't as mean as I would
be.

5. One area you haven't considered is the likelihood that, as a part of their pansy-ass approach to a most well deserved Lebanese slaughter, the
Israelis are in fact using irritant or incapacitant gasses to _refuse to allow_ the worthless Hezbollah animals to use nominally 'their own' women
and children as gun shields and murdered propoganda. As has repeatedly happened, with video, in Iraq. A 'light-gas agent' could in fact suggest
this (although I would personally not be surprised if it wasn't in fact an empty payload shell since CG-rounds of all kinds are typically left
unfilled until just before delivery).

6. Another potential use for what are more often called 'cannister rounds' is that of _leaflet delivery_. But then again, that would require
someone to consider that some poor deluded schmuck of a gunho Israeli might actually believe mere words could convince an Arab extremist to avoid
unnecessary conflict on a 'just leave' basis of clear roads and allowed-times advisories.

CONCLUSION:
The only casually sovereign Lebanese and Palestinian Authority have opened a can of whoop so deep I hope they can't be 'seated' as governments for
another 20+ years. Maybe after they have once more been spanked as juvenile fools who think a bad act can buy one leverage like some mafia gangster,
they will again be ready for recognition as nations in charge of their own destinies. Until that time, it's just too damn bad that these aren't
likely to be real thermobaric weapons. Or WMD of some other nasty variety. Because if they were, the Israelis would be /cake walking/ past these
villages and the terrorist-plus-civvie-CSS death tolls would be in the low thousands already. So damn sad that nobody knows what a military can do if
it -really- wants to wick up the body count of 'innocent civillians'. So that, in their naivete` they actually believe the IDF are not acting with
MORE than 'all due restraint'.

Is there any enhanced photos of this item? From what I can see this item lacks the international std marking of a yellow nose band for a mass
detonation explosive item. All munitions items technically have to be marked with certain color which identify its explosive properties. The red
band identifies that this item has incendiary properties.

>>
There was one other man in history with an attitude like that; he lived in a small house in Berlin around the 1940`s, and had a small under nose hair
piece.
>>

Generalized Stupidity.

Hitler stated from early in his career (Mein Kampf anyone?) that his ultimate intent was to 'solve the Jewish problem'.

OTOH, I have no problems with the Arabs continued living on their lands. So long as they bloody well stay there, peacefully.

Hitler falsely began WWII by murdering German prisoners, placing them at a Polish border crossing point and pointing a finger over the fence. The
Poles screamed foul, not because they had 'prior greivances justifying more violence' but because they _knew_ they had not done this horrific act.
And yet nobody chose to do anything to stop the resulting German invasion even though both France and England had stated that any such attempt at
retributive invasion would mean war.

Hezbollah and all their ugly little rabid mutt civillian supporters are /bragging/ about what they did by going _into Israel_ to attack the infantry
patrol.

No denial. No claim that they didn't do it. Pride. Viciousness. A certain belief that they can't be touched for want of having done this vile
thing.

>>
Learning from the Germans is not the way to go, but they have done - and are commiting more war crimes than the Germans ever did.
>>

Screw the Nazis. Let's talk the U.S. Cavalry.

Upon finding a destroyed settler outpost, they would call in the 1800s equivalent of CSI. Said Indian Scout's _sole responsibility_ was neither to
tag numbers, direction or tribal identity of the assault. But simply to give a time index.

_All_ Native American villages within a given walking/horseborn travel radius then being razed to the ground. _Amazingly_ 'word got around' and now
the U.S. is run by a bunch of 'racists' who have built a nation out of what used to be a constant state of internecine conflict and tribal coup
similar in it's entirety to what goes on daily in Iraq.

There are other examples, going back to the Romans who, under Caesar, let the Gallic Tribes know that massacreing Roman Legionaries in their winter
encampments would cost them more (60-100,000) than they could afford to lose. And again, creating a _Pax Romana_ by which these primitive barbarians
knew the first peace they had had in a 1,000 years.

>>
Racial extermination of the people in Lebanon.
>>

Nonsense.

Let's DEFINE 'Race' shall we?

>
A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
>

First, there is NO ONE RACE ruling Lebanon. Either geneticially or by religious or political credo. The Druhz, Amal and Hezbollah factions slaughter
each other on a near random basis when not 'united' by some attack upon Israel.

Indeed, _as a Semitic language/culture group_ the Israelis have more in common with their Lebanese neighbors than they do with their former North
European or Slavic persecutors.

Second, there is no possibility of destroying the 'Lebanese Race' with ones and twos retaliatory killings. Even at a 5,000:1 "Are We Learning
Yet?" kill ratio'd level.

Because Lebanon has a population of 3,800,000 people and a yearly birth:death rate of _3 to 1_ among a population 66% of which are of breeding age
(the more you kill, the younger the population becomes and the more likely to have explosive birth rate recovery).

The simple fact of the matter is that these biped animals have no more guilt for their actions than they do terror for the extinction of their belief
system as a whole. As such they should be treated to a heavy dose of what it means when you take civilized people hostage _or allow those in your
company to do so_.

It does work. It has worked before. It is the only way to abate the constant trickle of death counts before things TRULY DO 'get serious'.

Those Israeli soldiers are _dead_. Such was a guaranteed outcome when, within two hours of their being taken, the Israelis were not in Lebanon
cutting off all escape routes and preparing to slaughter 500 men, women and children per hour until they were returned.

The difference is that _there are other soldiers, civillians and innocents_ who could be taken tomorrow or next week. By rockets or by kidnapping.

And THEY deserve the protection that a 5,000:1 kill ratio would engender as sheer horrific realization that the Lebanese ARE NOT AND NEVER WILL BE in
the same league of professional killers as the IDF.

It's just too damn bad that people like you Mr. Harlequin are not suffering the indignity of being kidnapped from your homes and used as bargaining
chips for some ultranationalist/religious driven insanity that _overlooks the basic crime involved_.

There is no excuse for illegal activities between sovereign states. Israel was not 'in Lebanon' OR 'Free Palestine' at the time their troops were
taken. As such, it was the sovereign responsibility of the enacting nations national representative governments to treat the crime of kidnap as the
driving motive to FIND AND RETURN THE VICTIMS, regardless of any other existing dispute.

We Would Have.

They failed to do so. Instead becoming all whiney and 'but what about 20 years ago!?' defensive about how this was justified State Sponsored
Terrorism based on their own political agendas.

To which I say BUNK. _Politics must never trump justice._

And when these so-called governments chose not to act as sovereign powers responsible for their OWN CITIZENS behaviors. The Israelis had no choice
but to ensure their own peoples safety.

It's just too damn bad that they waited until it became pointless as a function of saving their own.

As those hostages are either out of country or dead by now. And so there is noone left to rescue. Only to punish.

And Allah knows the Lebanese will never blaim the Syrians or Iranians or certainly Hezbollah (their sole source of real operating funds and 'unity
government' within a terrorist driven political system) for taking those two Israeli muzzle mutts beyond their ability to return them.

Anymore than they will hold themselves accountable to a higher level of moral responsibility in getting rid of the undeclared privateers running cross
border ops in their name.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
SITIS and AFRL are Department of Defense chinawhite. AFRL is Air Force Research Lab. I'm a lot more likely to believe them calling a Thermobaric
and an FAE seperate than wiki, or google calling them the same.

Yes they both use blast pressure, but the METHOD of getting the blast pressure is different and the WAY they use blast pressure is different. ...

Again, just because a car and a truck can be called a vehicle THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

Good analogy.

Perhaps it would be better to expand it a little.

Chainsaws, cars and trucks all use internal-combustion engines.

However, there are huge differences between 2-stroke and 4-stroke petrol engines and petrol and deisel engines.

2-stroke engines require no valves and therefore have no head and require no sump and therefore don't neet oil changes (but you'd better top it up
regularly!).

CONCLUSION:
The only casually sovereign Lebanese and Palestinian Authority have opened a can of whoop so deep I hope they can't be 'seated' as governments for
another 20+ years. Maybe after they have once more been spanked as juvenile fools who think a bad act can buy one leverage like some mafia gangster,
they will again be ready for recognition as nations in charge of their own destinies. Until that time, it's just too damn bad that these aren't
likely to be real thermobaric weapons. Or WMD of some other nasty variety. Because if they were, the Israelis would be /cake walking/ past these
villages and the terrorist-plus-civvie-CSS death tolls would be in the low thousands already. So damn sad that nobody knows what a military can do if
it -really- wants to wick up the body count of 'innocent civillians'. So that, in their naivete` they actually believe the IDF are not acting with
MORE than 'all due restraint'.

KPl.

And just WTF does any of that have to do with the question asked?

Do you know ANYTHING about the political reality of Lebanon? Obviously not.

Stick to your over-blown hyperbole about the capabilities of weapons and the incredible ignorance of the ground commanders, as judged by you, on the
scene at the time and leave the geo-political analysis to those who know something.

Maybe after they have once more been spanked as juvenile fools they will again be ready for recognition as nations in charge of their own
destinies.

Palestine has never been a nation and Lebanon hasn't been in charge of its own destiny for longer than I have been alive, and I'm pretty sure I've
got years on you.

The Lebanese civil war ended in 1990. All of the militias except for Hezbollah disarmed.
Hezbollah claimed they needed their weapons to resist Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon.
After French-led negotiations Israel withdrew in 2000, Hezbollah mistakenly believed it was them who'd driven the Israelis out.
Hezbollah's backers, Syria, remained and ruled Lebanon, turning the Lebanese parliament into a rubber stamp for Syrian decisions.
Syria went home last year, leaving the Lebanese in charge of Lebanon for the first time in 30 years.
Hezbollah, which claims 20,000 armed members, still refused to disarm and the Lebanese National Army doesn't have what it takes to forcibly disarm
them, unless you want the civil war to start again.

Syria and Iran are using Lebanon the way the US used Vietnam and Cambodia, as a proxy battelground, with the enthusiastic participation of certain
moronic locals.

Don't they also have shoulder launched Thermoberic weapons now? I heard of some weapon that can take out a medium sized building in just one or two
shots... they said it worked by first using up the air and then redetonating the remaining dust in the air or something along those lines. I forget
now as the article I read I cannot find anymore

It's the SMAW-NE. They had to fire an "ordinary" rocket first to penetrate the wall, then they fired a thermobaric rocket through the hole right
after.

The Marines were so impressed with the success of thermobaric weapons used in Operation Enduring Freedom that they approached Naval Surface
Warfare Center Indian Head and requested a shoulder-mounted version of their own. The Indian Head Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (IHDIV, NSWC)
(teaming with the Marine Corps Systems Command, NSWC Dahlgren, and Talley Defense Systems) responded to an urgent US Marine Corps need for a
shoulder-launched enhanced-blast warhead, by delivering the Shoulder-Launched Multi Purpose Assault Weapon--Novel Explosive (SMAW-NE) in 2003. The
highly successful collaboration spanned only nine months from concept development to weapon system fielding. This team used their expertise in warhead
design, fuze design, test, manufacturing, systems safety, and systems integration in providing a solution to this technical challenge. Among many
other enhancements, this modernized weapon includes a new warhead case design capable of penetrating brick targets and a thermobaric explosive fill
that provides an enhanced lethality.

On 16 April 2002 contract number N00178-02-C-1049, in the amount of $387,096.00, was awarded to Talley Defense Systems by NAVSURFWARCEN Dahlgren
Division for the SMAW Thermobaric Warhead. Indian Head, MD-based Naval Surface Warfare Center fabricated a thermobaric warhead that can operate with
the shoulder-mounted multipurpose assault weapon.

In May 2002 NSWC/ IHD sought a commercial partner for a joint program to develop thermobaric (TB) warheads for shoulder launched weapons. The
commercial partners was responsible for exploring and characterizing TB warhead designs with the goal of increasing lethality and/or incapacitation
effects beyond those of fragmentation driven technologies. The commercial partner was responsible for integrating the warhead design into existing
weapon system, demonstration with supporting hardware, and data acquisition and analysis of warhead effects. Demonstration of effects will include
determination of event duration, affected zone, hear flux, overpressure, and acoustics. NSWC/IHD was responsible for TB explosive formulation,
characterization, and loading into test hardware. Preference in selecting the commercial partner was given to companies having existing contracts for
sh oulder launched weapons in order to leverage hardware costs and to companies having experience in incorporation TB materials into warhead designs.

The $799,788.19 contract [N0017403C0002] was awarded to Talley Defense Systems on 19 November 2002. By mid-2002 the project had concluded phase one,
which included integrating the PBXIH-135 explosive into a shoulder-mounted warhead, redesigning the fuse interfaces, as well as booster and warhead
case design. Phase two involved completing safety certification and initial weapons production.

With the link I provided earlier taking you to a presentation on thermobarics, and the characteristics thereof compared to FAE, by Talley Defense. It
also discusses the Russian weapons above. I'll repost the link, just in case.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Good analogy.
Therefore, while thermobaric weapons and FAEs may both be volumetric, they are still not the same.

I was the one which make that analogy only backwards

Thermobaric can be termed like that ONLY IF it was talking about a particular way it explodes or functions. We know that thermobaric means "blast
pressure" which does not descride how the thermobaric bombs the americans have work. So it should not be confined to a single method since it does
not describe how the bomb works but how the bomb will explode, eg blast pressure.

Volumetric is a vauge discription, it can also be refered to as a flamethrower. What thermobaric does is describe what a FAE, american thermobaric and
other EMB do

PS: Willard856,

I read you source and that was one of the sources which i used in my post. It was actually a link in one of my links

The pictured weapon is from israels "carpet" mine clearing system.there is another photo in todays daily photos on the cryptome
website.cryptome.org...
The photo is half way down the page,after some horrific images of dying people.It clearly shows the same type of munition being loaded into its launch
system.
A page about carpet:www.defense-update.com...

Personally i am more concerned about the illegal use of depleted uranium munitions,which are waging a silent 4.5 billion year genocide on
Iraqis,Afghanis,US UK soliders,unborn babies,and now also on the lebanese and palestinians through the use of bunker busters and the like.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Good analogy.
Therefore, while thermobaric weapons and FAEs may both be volumetric, they are still not the same.

I was the one which make that analogy only backwards

Volumetric is a vauge discription, it can also be refered to as a flamethrower. What thermobaric does is describe what a FAE, american thermobaric and
other EMB do

Yes, as I pointed out with "internal-combustion engines", "volumetric" can include flamethrowers, just as I-CEs include 2-, 4- and 6-stroke
combustion cycle engines, petrol, kerosene and deisel engines, which are wildly different creatures.

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