Since we’re going to be doing a lot of old history today, how about history in the making? Is Kia the new Honda?

The Optima would be right at the top of my shopping if I was looking for a car in that class. Hyundai? I’m finding Kia’s designs by Peter Schreyer to be pretty consistently more appealing than Hyundai’s somewhat over-wrought Fluid Dynamics. They’re just not wearing as well for me as Kia’s cleaner lines, like Hondas of yore.

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What made/makes Hondas Hondas is good dynamics and controls. Whatever it is that people find so fascinating about new Hyundais and Kias, it isn’t dynamics, control quality and control feedback. Maybe they’re the new Datsuns.

You don’t need to convince me. I just bought a new Sedona in September to replace my beloved 99 T&C. For smaller cars, I have been a Honda guy since the 80s, ever since I got to know the 88 Accord purchased new by my then-girlfriend (and now wife). My first new car since turned out to be an 07 Fit Sport, which I am now driving every day. And I was also very impressed with the classic Honda-ness of my 96 Odyssey before it was smashed to bits.

Honda was about fun to drive, youthful good looks, and mechanicals that were both smooth and bulletproof-level in durability.

I think that Honda has been losing it, gradually. The current Accord, CR-V, and all the rest. Even the new Fit does nothing for me. In fact, a new CR-V was the first vehicle we drove and my wife HATED the looks of the inside. Every Odyssey from 99-on has suffered from some very un-Honda like problems.

Kia is taking over on looks. The new Sorento is very attractive, both inside and out. (We drove one before stumbling upon the Sedona – a much bigger, more powerful, more functional vehicle for the same price.) The jury is out on the long term durability of the mechanical bits, though their warranty makes it a risk worth taking. I don’t think that Kia has nailed the fun to drive part, though.

I suspect you’re right, JP. Our neighbors had a Sedona minivan that bounced back from one minor collision after another until the gal totaled it by running off the freeway and scraping it against the cable-and-steel-post center barrier. I have no idea how many miles they put on it but it was in use so often I’ll bet it was 100k anyway.

Kia does seem to be on a roll lately, and I hope they are improving with their quality.

My best friend married a girl last year and she bought into the marriage her I think 2003 Sedona that she and husband #1 bought new. Granted they weren’t ones for taking care of things, but after eight years, my friend said it has had it! It’s so bad, that he is thinking about replacing it with my Mystique!

Yes, the Korean cars are improving, but according to Consumer Reports, a 2005 Kia Spectra has a “much worse than average” record of repair under the “major engine” category– 2005 Civic shows “better than average.” Honda is hard to beat when it comes to long term reliability.

Hyundai/Kia is on a roll. I get labeled as a domestic fanboi (I’m OK with it), but there’s no doubting H/K’s mojo. I’m not too crazy about the “fluidic design” of the Hyundai’s, but Peter Schreyer (Schreier auf Deutsch?) is absolutely killer. He’s even managed to tailor a suit for a midget (Kia Rio) that looks pretty good.

And to all of those people who decry H/K’s past performance, all they have to do is to be better than they were. And I believe they are. We’ve had discussions about using Consumer Reports’ numbers for reliability and such, so we’ll find out soon enough how they hold up. But for a lot of value shoppers, that 10 year warranty allays a lot of fears. And apparently they have a 5/60 bumper to bumper, which IMO is tough to beat.

Honda, as one of the last independents (without their own keiretsu) has a lot to fear from H/K. They have the marketing power to take them on, I think they have the product to do it too. If my co-worker’s five year old Sonata’s are any indication, they have the product.

People like my late teens – early 20’s daughters have no recollection of Detroit’s or even Honda’s and Toyota’s “glory days”. They see the low price of entry, the long warranty and car stuffed with options and think: Why not?

I like how the photo really illustrates the subject here! Design-wise, I think you’re absolutely right — Kia today is reminding me a lot of Honda in the mid-late ’80s. I’m extremely impressed with the Optima in particular. Forget comparing it to Accord — Optima stands up in design (and features!) to Acura and beats it! And I’m a Honda fan since the ’80s! Now, reliability is another matter.
But for looks and style and generally catching the zeitgeist, it looks like the Honda I love is the Honda of the past — what will be known as “classic” era Honda — much as I love (and collect) classic GM cars of the ’60s -’80s.

The torch is passed. It always happens; nothing is static. Durant’s company took on the Ford empire, and did it with style and new engineering that Old Henry rejected. Later, Walter Chrysler made his bones with engineering breakthroughs; something the conservative men at GM and the Fords weren’t interested in developing.

The Germans, reeling with a war loss and desperate for hard currency, brought their funny little car over. It offered basically one thing: Durability in engineering and assembly and use. Which in an era of the Detroit car as a throwaway appliance, was a radical concept.

Into this mix came the Japanese; self-effacing, postwar purveyors of cheap trinkets but hungry for more profit and status. With their cultural tenacity using American statisticians’ concept of “continuous quality improvement” they offered quality that was both phenomenal for the price, and increasing with each year and new model.

Now come the Koreans, as driven as the Japanese and their historic rivals; and as needing hard currency and specialized, high-profit industry. Their cars started as crude but well-built; and they progressed as the Japanese companies did – only much, much faster.

I have not driven a Hyundai in sixteen years; and never a Kia. But I can say with assurance that, barring devastating war on the Korean Peninsula, H/K WILL take up the mantle once held by Honda. Or, at the very least, Toyota.

Why? Because all the elements are there. The know-how; the dealer network; the steadily-improving product…and mostly, the burning desire to succeed. No matter how hard; no matter what path; they have convinced themselves they WILL make it.

And to engineers and planners with such an attitude, opera windows and vinyl roofs aren’t going to do it. Those are the shortcuts of the burned-out and exhausted.

I have and a few of the latest generation Sonatas as rentals and although the look good to some (not me, however) the driving dynamics have a long way to go to catch an Accord and is nowhere near my TL.

Were I to spring for a new ride, a 2012 Camry Hybrid would be right on the top of the list. Great package, light weight and excellent fuel consumption. I test drove one last week and I came away MIGHTY impressed. Almost as my TL fast in a straight line, better ride and excellent fit and finish. However, being the cheap guy I am, I am not going to buy one!

my ex-hippie cousin, who had a quarter million mile toyota pickup back in the day, has a hyundai elantra touring. if kia=honda, then hyundai = toyota.

my korean father-in-law called my wife excitedly to ask me if he should buy a chrysler. korea had lowered the import duties. i told him that to stay the hell away from it but if he could get a good deal on a ford, that would be fine. he bought another hyundai.

I currently have an 07 Optima EX V6, and a Sedona EX both are loaded both have been problem free for the most part. I have 84k on the Optima and 55k on the Sedona. Daughter is getting the Optima at years end, The 2012 Optima is at the top of a short list. We test drove the 2012 Sorento (kids are needing less room wifey claims). She Liked everything about it but the ride..too firm, the Optima is not as cuhsy as I like but its still the one to beat. Get this when we got together I owned an S430 and she had a Range Rover. We traded an 02 Highlander Limited for the Sedona (Teens,car seats & strollers),and a 02 Camry SE (high miles) for the Optima. We have no regrets and maybe I’ll install gas shocks on a Sorento we’ll see.P.S wifey is now campaining for a Challeger…

Somewhat? Here’s the design logic that motivated the styling on the current Sonata and Elantra: “BMW’s cars have a deep crease along their sides, so if we make our creases deeper and longer then we’ll sell even more cars and be more prestigious than BMW!” Imitative and derivative design at its absolute nadir, with a nausea-inducing shot of “me-too” styling as the chaser: Hyundai today.