Why has Abdul Hakim Murad not been sacked by Cambridge University?

Abdul Hakim Murad is the Islamic name of a convert to Islam called Tim Winters. He is a lecturer and tutor and director of studies at Wolfson College, Cambridge University. Over recent years he was the sort of fellow who was forever being produced as a ‘moderate’, enlightened Muslim scholar. I always had doubts about this claim.

For instance, a couple of years back, on a BBC radio programme, I pressed him on the fact that all the main schools of Islamic law still mandate the death sentence as penalty for leaving Islam. Abdul tried to pick me up on this. ‘Are you sure of that’ he pressed. I said I was. At which point he revealed that he had recently been at a seminar in Jordan where a number of muftis had discussed the idea of ‘maybe a custodial sentence – certainly not the death penalty’ as punishment enough for leaving Islam. ‘Too kind’ I remember replying. [6 mins 30 here]

It seemed then – and seems to me now – unthinkable that a Christian chaplain (for instance) and pastoral tutor at a Cambridge college who thought that imprisoning students who left Christianity was a progressive step would go down all that well. One would like to think that on campus there would be a certain amount of opposition to such a figure. Certainly a pro-imprisonment of ex-Christians chaplain would be unlikely to be promoted by the British government and other authorities as a voice of progressive Christianity.

So it is not a surprise to me – at any rate – that Tim has just been rumbled in a scandal involving a pile of anti-gay stuff. On a video which appeared – and has now disappeared – from the internet Tim Winters / Abdul Hakim Murad of Cambridge University attacks homosexuality as ‘an inexplicable aberration’ and much more. It is clear that the speaker really doesn’t like gays.

The sermon is still available to buy online. But I was lucky enough to watch it while it was up for free. The video showed a speaker much exercised about the people of Lut – the story in the Koran which copies the Bible’s story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Tim is swaying slightly as he speaks and is clearly in great perturbation of mind. He rants about the ‘sins’ of the people of Lut. He says:

‘Stretch your imagination as you might, you cannot conceive of any abuse of the form which Allah has given human beings which is more extreme, more blasphemous, a denial of its manifest created purpose than the crime of the people of Lut.’

Since the video first came back to light in recent days there has been an attempt at damage-limitation. Abdul / Tim has apologised and said the video is at least 15 years old and a ‘youthful enthusiasm’ (if it was 15 years ago that would have made him 37 at the time). Cambridge University is pitching it further back and saying the video is nearly 20 years old. Some doubt has already been cast on these claims, and there appears to be a possibility that this video was in fact recorded only two years ago.

I know that complaining about such statements made by such a pasty-white convert only makes one a racist ‘Islamophobe.’ But oughtn’t one to be troubled by this? Were a Christian man called Timothy to have said such things he would almost certainly have been sacked by Cambridge University by now. Students, LGBT groups, unions – everyone wanting to make a stand against bigotry – would be screaming about this. But Timothy is so lucky. Because he became Abdul I think he’ll be just fine.

Homophobic comments are most definitely a hate crime but that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the interpretation of Islam in most Muslim countries and even surfaces in the west. The Islamic culture belongs to a bygone age before we were enlightened to concepts like anti-discrimination, sexism, pedophilia, bigamy and death to non believers. Unfortunately Islam hasn’t changed in centuries and some of its teachings have little place in a modern world.

John Pitcher

The subliminal message of this piece is that all Muslims are like the Professor at Cambridge. I am being sensitive here now! But I think this is the real purpose of this post.

This is easily proven to be wrong. Only 23% of the world’s Muslim population live in Islamic states: That is in countries that have Sharia as a part of their legal or governmental framework.

These countries are all of course authoritarian and we cannot know how many in the population agree with the style of the society that shapes their lives and the Islam they are forced to follow.

Whatever: It means that 77% of the Ummah do not follow a legal system that mandates death for Apostasy. There is no duty, as a Muslim, to use Sharia in any of its many forms (five main; but a whole lot of others and you can make one up too if you want). There are whole states such as Indonesia where millions live under a secular legal system.

Nor is their any requirement to have the kind of homophobic attitudes that the Professor apparently holds. There are thriving gay communities in many Muslim communities and Muslim majority countries.

Constantly highlighting the extreme and pushing it as the norm is propagandist and counter-productive to those people seeking social cohesion in many countries (not just Britain).

This man at Cambridge, on the face of it, seems unsuitable for the post he is in and that is all. Nothing more can be generalised fairly from the decision of the University to maintain him as a person of influence over young minds. I suspect that if you look carefully at many of the professors at Cambridge you will find all sorts of prejudice lurking among the cloisters. The Board of Governors at Cambridge have made a bad appointment? STOP THE WORLD!!

andy_gill

It’s a modern form of le Trahison des Clercs, the flight from reason and abandonment of moral principle. I’m afraid we cannot look to the universities for salvation.

The moral fightback, if it ever comes, will come from the grass roots of the nation. We can’t go on like this much longer.

Lazydaisy

I think it has already begun. Sadly, we have given privileges to people who are so culturally retarded that they thought strength lay in shrieking and stamping like unruly children, whereas we who have built enlightened societies and are not calcified in the dark ages, hold all the power. They didn’t understand what they were abusing, or the limits of our tolerance. On their heads be it.

Re-Leaf

And with this beautifully expressed comment, it is clear that you Mr Andy Gill represent what remains noble from amongst the grass roots of this great nation (like the great EDL).

And if not, then the future will not be black and white; it will be brown or maybe the colour of caramel (i.e. a moderate yellow-brown)….

Igorance breeds bigotry and racism, and it is sad to see how so many people on this board substitute in-depth knowledge on an important subject for a soundbite ( like good little followers of the media who tell them what to think) before expressing their “opinion”.

I am prepared to bet that none of those spouting vitriol against Islam and muslims ( most of whom evidently know too little about either to have a meaningful opinion) would dare hold Catholicism to the same standard and criticize the religion and church for all its inequities or somehow hold Catholics up as a “3rd pillar” when the noble record of the Church is considered ( murder of women as witches, the crusades, the systemic abuse both physical, mental and sexual of children in various Church-run orphanages across the world, the deliberate protection of paedophile priests by the Vatican) as to do so would be “unfairly marginalising the majority based on the actions of the minority. Utter tripe, hypocrisy and further the demonstration of an inferior intellect, something that one should never take pride in.

Oh, I don’t think we embarrass ourselves… I think we frighten you. Is it perhaps beginning to dawn on you that you are dependent upon the goodwill of the non-Muslim majority – and that you have abused it? Don’t attempt to lecture western people on our own history – we know it, and we have learned from it. What a pity you can’t say likewise.

Abhay

Can the hate speech laws be used against this creature called Abdul? Can he be sacked and locked up for awhile?

‘Youthful enthusiasm’ at 37…indeed, the infantilisation of society is complete!

Lazydaisy

The hate-speech laws are there to be used, but currently, such is the power of Left Wing tyranny which views anyone who is “other” as being a protected species not capable of good behaviour, they are generally used against those who say openly that they detest the cult of the pedophile prophet. Racism , in their eyes, is a one-way street. There was a case last year of a young English care-worker, waiting peacefully with her boyfriend for a bus in an English town in daylight who was, for no reason, suddenly jumped on and kicked unconscious by two drunken Muslim Somali women living entirely on UK state benefits, who were filmed screaming “Die, white bitch!” as they kicked the girl repeatedly in the head. Even as the police tried to pull them off, the creatures carried on kicking her and screaming racist abuse. But in court? The boyfriend’s attempts to rescue his girlfriend came under scrutiny in case the attackers had thought them excessive, and the creatures were given suspended sentences; the judge dismissed claims that the attack was racially motived – clearly not understanding the words “Die, white bitch.” Thankfully, the western worm is now turning. But it is obvious that the ranting Islamic hordes, who have absolutely no understanding of democracy, think that their privileged position so far is the result of Divine Intervention rather than being dependent on the will of the majority – or they wouldn’t delude themselves that they can continue to be such a thorn in all our sides.

Abhay

I remember that case Lazydaisy. It indeed was sad!!

Viking.

It’s the old Muslim apologist claim;
that it is not Islam that is to blame, but a small group of
extremists that are expressing only their own personal, violent and
hateful nature. And liberal westerners readily swallow this claim
because they don’t want any trouble and they really can’t understand
why everyone can’t just be nice to each other, the way that they are
nice to everyone. But it is Islam that is to blame; Islam is a
hateful and violent religious doctrine.

The
Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has
killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has
saved all mankind.” So said Obama is his speech at Cairo on June 4,
2009, intended to the Muslim world. This quote is taken from verse
5:32 of the “Holy Koran”. Let us first quote the full verse
and see what it says (Yusuf Ali translation):“[005:032] On that
account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew
a person – unless it be (punishment) for murder or for spreading
mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people:
and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of
the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with
clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit
excesses in the land.”

Clearly
Muslims are allowed to kill anyone that spreads mischief in the land,
i.e. Opposes Islam or breaks Islamic law. The punishment of those who
wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and
main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or
the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from
the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy
punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Abhay

Good you have quoted canonical text. There are several other verses that are violent. But one doesn’t have to be a Koranic theologian (I have other books to read) to see what is going on. One can see what is being done in the name of Islam not in one country but several countries across the globe. The radical Islamists have brought medievalism back.

‘I know that complaining about such statements made by such a pasty-white convert only makes one a racist ‘Islamophobe.’’

Your article doesn’t make you that at all. Why the paranoia and fear of silly names?That makes you look childish.

Abhay

It doesn’t make him look childish. That is an oft-repeated charge these days.

John Pitcher

Being oft-repeated doesn’t necessarily make the charge inaccurate does it? Maybe it is so obvious it is stale to repeat but that does not lessen its accuracy either.

http://ajbrenchley.com/ Swank

Why is it that creeps — and foreign, hostile ones at that — so often get to enjoy the beauties of England that as a lower-middle-class exile I never could?

Exile: My dad was a mechanical engineer, burdened at 24 with two infants (my mother’s choice, she had no sense and still doesn’t); and his boss didn’t like him. Early 70s, power cuts, everything cost the Earth: no wonder he left. But it wrecked my life.

And now I get to read about lowlife West-haters helping to ruin my native soil.

Thanks!

Cumberland

We see a groups intention by their stated aims, we judge the BNP by their manifesto, why is islam not seen in this way, it is there to see in their books, all contracts have small print, not taking them into consideration is no excuse at times of dispute, so why should we ignore islams not so small print.

thanksdellingpole

Most of the rubbish that we’ve had to put up with has been a product of the Oxbridge lot, I’m not surprised, just waiting for violent revolution.

Abhay

I don’t think we need a violent insurrection. Writers / scholars like Douglas Murray who tell the truth like it is and some politicians like Farage who provide a patriotic and cohesive viewpoint for people to vote on, I believe, can shift the country’s politics in the right direction.

And yes, use the law to disprivilege the radical, Wahabi garbage.

thanksdellingpole

That’s not what I’m getting at, time has run out for a peaceful movement, it always does in Europe. Think of the almighty world wide financial crash that’s coming, what do you think will happen then.

Bobsyouruncle

It is all very simple, ladies and gentlemen. Get Reliance of the Traveler, the compendium covering Sharia law as mandated by the 4 Sunni schools of jurisprudence. It is attested to by Al Azhar university in Cairo, Islam’s recognized centre for Islamic law and studies. Apostasy, child marriage, jihad, women not allowed to marry non-muslims etc. All there for you – study, learn and laugh at the elites talking tosh then give them the finger. Useless.

zakisbak

Why has Abdul Hakim Murad not been sacked by Cambridge University? -
Because he’s a homphobic Muslim,not a homophobic Christian?

Re-Leaf

Dear oh dear. There is a trouble a brewing. It looks like Murray’s friend – Niall Ferguson – has just been outed for making homophobic comments in a public forum.

Will the cretinous neo-con join the calls for his resignation? I think not and we all know why!

“Harvard history professor Niall Ferguson has apologised for saying the economist John Maynard Keynes did not care about society’s future because he was gay and had no children.”

Ha ha! And he is supposed to be Murray’s friend! What a disgraceful bunch of half-wits. Still we can have fun at your expense!

1- For a time, Murray thought it a good idea to publicly defend his now infamous
position, as delivered in his 2006 Amsterdam speech.

Here are some more of his revealing comments (said in the company of his
‘friends’):

“….No European country’s Muslim population is currently higher than 10% – which ordinarily would be alright – not ideal, but alright.”

“…Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition. We in Europe owe – after all – no special dues to Islam.”

“… We owe them no religious holidays, special rights or privileges. From long
before we were first attacked it should have been made plain that people who
come into Europe are here under our rules and not theirs.”

“…Where a mosque has become a centre of hate it should be closed and pulled
down. If that means that some Muslims don’t have a mosque to go to, then they’ll just have to realise that they aren’t owed one.”

Now taking the same comments, let’s substitute some of the words:

“….No European country’s Jewish population is currently higher than 10% – which
ordinarily would be alright – not ideal, but alright.”

“…Conditions for Jews in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe
must look like a less attractive proposition. We in Europe owe – after all – no
special dues to Judaism.”

“… We owe them no religious holidays, special rights or privileges. From long
before we were first attacked it should have been made plain that people who
come into Europe are here under our rules and not theirs.”

“…Where a synagogue has become a centre of hate it should be closed and pulled down. If that means that some Jews don’t have a synagogue to go to, then
they’ll just have to realise that they aren’t owed one.”

Frightening, wouldn’t you say?

2- Once Murray became aware of the ire and deep embarrassment his ‘views’ had caused, particularly amongst those he kept the company of, he reacted not reasonably or with humility, but petulantly. Here (see link below) we find him sulking about how he was side-lined by the Tory party for refusing to renounce his earlier comments.

3- Knowing full well that his ‘career-limiting views’ placed him squarely in the
crackpot camp, he eventually issued a half-baked withdrawal of his comments,
at which point, he then began to claim were *ahem* “poorly expressed”. Paul Goodman took the young ‘neo-con’ to account for this, exposing his juvenile attempts to dodge the main point of criticism (see details in link below):

Many words and speeches later – ‘dhimmittude’ this and ‘sharia’ that – and little has changed. The ‘Murray formula’ has become predictable and stale. Most observers will no doubt have noticed, the frequent target of most of his verbal and written attacks are almost always Muslims. Whether it’s immigration, the so-called NY mega-mosque, drones, Iran, the Israel-Palestine conflict, freedom of speech or the demented EDL; the conclusion is always comically the same i.e. it’s somehow (as he would have us believe) the fault of Islam, and by extension the dreaded Muslims. The world according to Murray is both bizarrely crude and vulgar. There’s little point in engaging with him, with any seriousness, as the man has proven himself, time and time again, to be an ardent attention-seeker, an agitator,
who barely rises above the level of demagogue. Shameful.

“Ah, how the seeds of cockiness blossom when soiled in ignorance.” – Steve
Alten

One would think, that with the tragic experience of European anti-Semitism behind
us – we would have learnt a thing or two, especially when it comes to controlling that dark and murky impulse to demonise the ‘other’. With the likes of Murray around, we have some way to go.

Lazydaisy

How ludicrous to compare Jews – an educated minority which has lived among Europeans for centuries without harming anyone or asking anything but the right to exist – with a vast swarming horde of violent, backward wife-beaters and terrorists who advocate emulating a dark-age pedophile warlord and are the dregs of society! Who is most likely to fail at school, to be unemployed, to be in prison, to be on benefits, to be involved in violent attacks on the general populace, to be involved in terrorism, to brutalise his women and children if they disagree? A MUSLIM. They even have two the rate of birth defects and the majority population, because of the huge number of cousin marriages. Don’t bother with the endless drivel – if you support Muslims and argue their case against non-Muslims, you are a traitor to every western value. Supporting the intolerant, does not make you tolerant – it just makes you someone who should – and hopefully will, one day – be packed off with your muslim friends to a place in which you can truly explore the Islamic lifestyle.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, and talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned. And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful European cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.

Lazydaisy

@alex – I would second that sentiment, except that the ridiculous levels of tolerance for the repulsive Islamic hordes stems from heartfelt disgust at the Holocaust and a determination that this will never happen again. On that pretext, under cover of our shame and tolerance, the cult of the pedophile has proliferated. Time we got real and got them out.

Augustus

Absolutely right. The Arab-Muslim world deserves to be isolated and contained, as was the former Soviet Union. An Iron Curtain, in Winston Churchill’s memorable words, should
descend separating the West and its allies from the Arab-Muslim world until the latter has exhausted itself of its own demons.

Re-Leaf

“creative skill for destructive skill,” – that bit I found linguistically poor; but the rest I found for a variety of reasons amusing. I’m sure Murray would be proud of what his followers write

I only returned to to post a most exciting development that would interest you all I’m sure. Niall Fergusonhas just been forced to apologise for making homophobic comments.

Perhaps, you are not aware, but Murray was a guest at Niall’s wedding. Also, isn’t Murray gay? Oh that’s got to hurt – hasn’t it! I wonder what he thought of Ferguson’s comment. Do you think Murray will be asking for him to sacked from his post at Harvard?

Ha ha! Brilliant!

alexa44

I am not sure the one who worte this is Murray follower. I am not sure the spanish who wrote this even know who Murray is.
It was an article written by Spanish writer and published in a Spanish newspaper on Jan. 15, 2008
it begins I walked down the street in Barcelona , and suddenly discovered a terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz

Lazydaisy

No, you don’t find it tedious – you find it frightening. Islam is – deservedly – hated the world over, and its people have made a point of infesting other people’s civilised countries where they demand superior rights, abuse the welfare system, abuse the existing population, and generally confirm their vile reputation. Now the worm has turned, and all over Europe – including the UK – the tolerant majority are standing up to be counted. And guess what? The followers of the cult of the pedophile warlord are massively outnumbered. You are only 3% of the population; and all over Europe, because Islam is intolerable and abominable to freethinking people, anti-Islamic parties are sweeping to power. We all know that Islam is an insult to civilisation and we – who are of all races – are sick of being accused of racism each time we express our disgust. The creatures are even trying to have it made illegal to criticise the ravings of the pedophile prophet they have sworn to emulate! Do you think a few dusty academics will turn that tide of opinion? We are the civilisations which actually achieve – Islamic societies have been stagnant for move than a thousand years. The day we want you out – you will indeed be out. Best start making it clear which way your loyalties lie. (Incidentally, if you support Islam, you are automatically anti-semetic. So don’t try to play that card.)

Re-Leaf

Hilarious! You are clearly a deluded fantasist, but please don’t stop – it’s all very interesting to me to see what you spend your time thinking about!

P.S. Murray would be so proud of

Re-Leaf

Ha ha. I wish to confirm that I am incredibly frightened (because you told me I should be)

I do, however, wonder to myself. Could it be that beneath that tough online exterior (emboldened no doubt by the many thumbs up you receive), that you are in fact a real softie at heart i.e. lover of kittens and maybe humous?

Okay, okay I confess. I was getting a little bored with overleaf and I have to admit you do the whole european superiority/anti-muslim/islam/i’m not a racist guv act, a whole better than he or she did…so basically im just goading you to say more… much more!

peace and blessings to you my dear little flower child, that is admittedly a little lazy

Overleaf

Anti-Islam does not mean anti-Muslim. Get it?

Re-Leaf

No.

Overleaf

Let me explain the basics to you sunshine. An ideology is not a person, but a set of ideas.. A follower of said ideology is a person.

A person has free will to accept or decline an ideology.

Get it?

If I hate socialism, does it mean that I will discriminate against socialists or oppress them? No, because each person is entitled to their beliefs, as long as they don’t impose said beliefs on others by force.

As an ex-Muslim, I hate Islam. Do I hate Muslims? No. My family and friends are by and large Muslims.

Do I hate Mohammad the disgusting charlatan and war criminal? Yes. Do I hate Islam, yes. It is an immoral gutter and filthy ideology.

I don’t expect intellectually challenged lefties to get this, but I hope you are a cut above.

Re-Leaf

Yes, the sun is indeed shining bright!

Thank you for your thoughts on ideology. You explained it very well.

Overleaf

Are you stalking Murray?

Re-Leaf

Yes, but right now, I’m going for a curry or maybe a kebab – either way I’m sure it’ll be HALAL.

Salam!

Overleaf

Salam means hello. You got it backwards.

None of the stuff you dug on Murray was of any significance. You must be one of those loser lefties on welfare and benefits without a real job. Otherwise you would have better things to do than stalking.

Gohe sag tu dahane Mohammad jaakesh. Get it?

Re-Leaf

سلام

Peace onto you my dear brother!

No I don’t get it

In any case, I do suspect that you might be sneering an awful lot (‘lefties’, ‘welfare’ etcetera!).

“….No European country’s Muslim population is currently higher than 10% – which ordinarily would be alright – not ideal, but alright.”

Over 10% Sharia gets to be introduced. You seem to like living under Sharia. So why don’t you move to Saudi Arabia or Iran?

Inattentive Vigilant

“According to researchers, Christians – particularly fundamentalists who believe the Bible is God’s word – have a lower IQ than those who are less religious… The strongest result was in the area of fundamental beliefs. Intelligence was an “inoculation against fundamentalism”, with each 15-point increase in IQ making people about half as likely to have strong fundamentalist views, said Bates.”

Inattentive Vigilant

Every religion, taken to its fundamentals, is as brutal as the next. The more of a fundamentalist, the lower the IQ, and the more intolerant and violent.

When was the last time a jew was stoned for adultry. When was the last time jews tried to kill people who insulted Judahism. etc etc

Lazydaisy

Yes, it’s strange that there are no such conditions as “Christianophobia”, “Judaeophobia”, “Hinduphobia” or “Buddhistophobia”, isn’t it? Could it be that we aren’t suffering from an irrational revulsion, after all?

anotherjoeblogs

the future belongs to islam – thank god i won’t be around too long. it is really the receptacle of every evil thought brought about by the most debased expression by mankind – an id, a caliban festering in the consciousness of our potentially beautiful planet. good luck chucks. thanks doug.

Lazydaisy

No, it doesn’t…. only in the minds of a few scabrous old freaks and cowards. It’s just one of many such evils which our society has eradicated. It’s actually quite funny to see the weirdos gloating to themselves, without any understanding of how we function. We may not jump around in the street shirking and burning flags, but we do actually get things done… and in the end, we ALWAYS win. Fact – not Islamic fantasy.

anotherjoeblogs

ok i was on the beer and feeling less than salabrious salubrious. hey by the way i have dodged katyusha rockets and swords and many bombs and earthquakes and infectious diseases. us auld freaks have moved on since the grateful dead and john pilger.
but yes when i said ‘ the future belongs to islam ‘ i was being sardonic ( old word that ) scabrous is good too, lazy daisy camamillo.keep up the fight.

Lazydaisy

Beer’s good… most of the problem with Muslims is they don”t get enough of it.

anotherjoeblogs

and they don’t get enough of beer either

Lazydaisy

Just two of the finer things in life which they would like to deprive us of!

anotherjoeblogs

as in scabies ? what a mouth you have Chamaemelum nobilis

Lazydaisy

Ah, I try….

Arturaski

‘Shirking and burning flags’

Hilarious.

Cumberland

Not true, truth, common sense will prevail.

Overleaf

Huge part of humanity take ideology for common sense. That is why you can never argue with an Islamic about Islam. They think you lack common sense.

James

If everyone British is sacked and accused of being blah blah blah for expressing opinion even in the past, so should Tim Winter – simple as that really.

Henry McArthur

You Douglas Murray are a despicable hypocrite, by your own admission people change and should be allowed to make mistakes and develop as individuals, just because they held a particular view in the past doesn’t mean they can’t move on, I heard you say words to that effect at the ‘seminar on the far Right and pro Islamist left’. The video you have posted of Tim Winter was made in 1995. Evidence for you; http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/bayan.htm
Tim Winters has responded in a mature and civil manner, so calm your rant!

Abhay

Why are you so eager for Tim Winter or Abdul, whatever the heck his name is, to be excused? Why shouldn’t he be scrutinied for his rubbish? Why do you trust him? How do you know he has changed?

http://twitter.com/nadeem1afzal nadeem afzal

Who says the following…”Of course gang-rape and child abuse are not the preserve of immigrants. But….”

Murray has described the English Defence League as:

‘an extraordinary phenomenon which, by the way, in my opinion wouldn’t have occurred if the government had got a grip on al-Muhajiroun. It only came about because the authorities didn’t do anything about the that particularly thuggish organisation. These things have consequences. The English Defence League, when they started protesting, had banners saying things like, you know, sharia law discriminates against women; sharia law is anti-gay. Well, I’m good with both of those sentiments; I’m sure most people in this room are. If you were ever going to have a grass-roots response from non-Muslims to Islamism, that would be how you’d want it, surely ?

But of course, we all know, there are awkward things around this. There have been exposed links from the EDL with-far right organisations, in individual cases, and maybe – others will know more about this – wider than that. But you know, for instance, Louis Amis wrote a very interesting piece in the Standpoint magazine some months ago, after investigation, and he said, and others have said, that as far as they can see, within the EDL, they have tried to kick out BNP sentiments. Does this mean that they aren’t racist or that they are ? I’m not making a definitive point. I’m just saying that these things are extremely complex, and we ought to be careful before dismissing whole swathes of people.’

And my personal favourite…Murray also, on the same occasion, said of Robert Spencer, a director of ‘Stop Islamization of America’, that ‘I happen to know Robert Spencer; I respect him; he is a very brilliant scholar and writer’. I do not consider that an appropriate way to describe Spencer, who is the proprietor of the viciously anti-Muslim site ‘Jihadwatch‘ and a promoter of Srebrenica genocide denial.

Overleaf

Wrong. Spencer is anti-Islam, and not anti-Muslim. If you don’t know the difference, then you are opinionating out of ignorance.

There is a vast community of born-Muslims or former-Muslims who hate Islam. Many Muslims also hate parts of Islam.

What you are saying is that if society deems communism to be unsavory, then we should go and pick up all communists and incarcerate them.

And I am an ex-Muslim Muslim. (My ID card still says I am a Muslim).

Lazydaisy

for me, a person is their belief, not what they are born. We have freedom to choose our way. If you are an “ex-muslim” then you are not muslim. Simple.

Overleaf

Very true. The problem is that once the ID card in the Middle East says you are Muslim (because your father was a Muslim), there is no way to get that off. If you wish to convert or drop Islam, you can’t take that off your ID card. And if you go public with that, you will be subject to state punishment.

So despite my will, lawfully I am a Muslim.

Lazydaisy

As a grown woman, the very thought of being branded with a belief I didn’t choose is chilling. I think that in the west people in general find it hard to imagine that such a thing is possible – and we are so used to being tolerant (absolute freedom of belief and speech is our proudest achievement) that we are naiive, as vulnerable as children. Out of a love of ‘freedom’ we defend the indefensible. For example, I had a Muslim friend, who suddenly started wearing the veil. Only in private, did she lift it to show that her husband had come home drunk and beaten her, breaking her nose. Her teenaged son threatened to hit her again if she got medical help – and her father said she should not have complained to me. A few months later, her daughters – 11 and 12 – were taken out of school, groomed, then sent to Pakistan to be married. She herself then ‘disappeared’ – simply stopped being seen. To marry off children is illegal under UK law and these girls were UK citizens. But nobody complained, everyone turned a blind eye to it in case they were called ‘racist’. And British authorities don’t outlaw the veil, in the cause of freedom – when the only real freedom being exercised is a brute’s “right” to hide his wife’s bruises.

Lazydaisy

I am sorry – I did reply to this, but it has not been posted – presumably because I mentioned a muslim friend of mine whose husband made her wear the veil to hide the fact that he had come home drunk and broken her nose. Considering the fact that the bulk of the reply concerned the way too many in the west defend the indefensible in the name of ‘tolerance’, it seems quite ironic that this is the first of my comments not to be allowed on the site! I would just like to say that the idea of being branded with a belief which I didn’t choose is horrific. I dearly wish more people like you would make clear exactly what we are dealing with – we are so used to tolerance that we are naiive.

Abhay

Well done Overleaf!

Lazydaisy

Islam has declared the intent to commit genocide, to wage war against civilians, and upholds child rape, female genital mutilation, honour killing, and countless other vilenesses which, if you are indeed a civilised human being, should turn your stomach to the extent that you completely denounce the entire cult of the pedophile warlord, and all its supporters. If you do not denounce it, then you are a supporter of it. If Spencer is indeed “viciously anti-Muslim” then he is a hero of western civilisation and enlightenment, something which you are unable to comprehend. I have said it before and I will say it again – remember that, unless the Islamic cess-pits from which you escaped, we live in democracies, and therefore you only survive at the will of the majority. Don’t annoy us.

http://sulayman.hadithuna.com Sulayman

Tempest in a teapot. If you asked a biblical scholar about homosexuality, we shouldn’t be surprised at the answer (both Christian and Jewish). Why the hate against him? 20 years ago, when the video was made, homosexuality was illegal even in parts of America.

Overleaf

The gutter religion of Islam has been around for 14 centuries. So is it going to become gay-friendly in 20 years? You make no sense. Don’t deny the official status of homosexuality in Islam.

http://twitter.com/DawudIsrael Dawud Israel

Douglas Murray is jealous since he got showed up by Timothy Winter on BBC Radio and he’s holding out on a grudge, since he realizes he doesn’t know jack about Islam and is quite simply a racist hiding behind the garb of fighting homophobia.

Douglas Murray: You think liberal societies can draw a line somewhere, but I can honestly say, that line is always moving in liberal societies. Muslims believe homosexuality is a sin, yes, but they don’t condemn or ridicule the sinner, merely the sin. This is how Muslims approach the issue now. If you feel this is objectionable, you should be straight forward and say it how it is: you want to ban the Koran from Britain.

di.

Overleaf

What an ignorant post. Hating Islam does not make you a racist.

So all the Christianity hating leftists, must be racist, ey?

And in Islamic countries, homosexuals are incarcerated, legally discriminated, or officially despised. Ignorant.

Lazydaisy

Yes – good idea! Ban the Koran from Britain! there – I’ve said it like it is.

Inattentive Vigilant

Ban the old and new testaments as well. Also ban dianetics while you’re at it. I know most of Europe has rejected Scientology while here in the United States, they are recognized. They should be taxed at the very least. All churches should.

Lazydaisy

In Europe we are very old cynical countries and we already have our religious loons under control, having long since packed the puritans off. Sorry to say, you are the recognised home of the Christian nutcase. The only ones who need removing are the Muslims, but oddly enough, however much they hate us, they seem to find the societies we create totally irresistible and so far, nobody has stopped them. That’s all set to change though, because we are now at the stage when we vote for anyone who is anti-muslim. We’ve been pushed too far, by people who have never bothered to learn our history and therefore think we are wusses. Sadly for them, when Europeans get to the end of their rope they don’t just jump around and burn flags. I just hope no innocent people get hurt while the beardy brigade are being cleared out.

Abhay

You make no sense whatsoever, though I know you think you are being very clever.

Claire Geber

Muslims “don’t condemn or ridicule the sinner, merely the sin.” Nonsense. Homosexuals are, in fact, condemned to death under Sharia – by hanging, beheading or being thrown off a roof. Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia – all have recently executed gay men, some teenagers.
Your distinction between sin and sinner is Christianizing Islam. It does not exist in Islam. How do Muslims – Pakistan, say – “approach the issue now” of honor-killing.

Islam is incompatible with western ideals of individual freedom and natural justice.

Inattentive Vigilant

The literal fundamentals of Christianity is the same.

margaret benjamin

Hardly its the Gospel being preached in its fullness. In fact that’s why its called the good news.

Cumberland

Jesus said, God loves all, even the sick,the poor and the disposed,this was the Good News.The thinking at the time was God loved the rich, the in-crowd, that it was the punishment of God that made make the sick and poor.

margaret benjamin

Its not just the thinking of the time its for always! For G-d lives in the now he is eternal.Jesus said all who come to me I will never turn away. As you know im sure first you have to come to him accept what he has done. G-d says he does not show favouritism ! So that leaves nobody out.

Inattentive Vigilant

I’m an equal opportunity hater of all religions. To me there is barely any noticeable difference between any of them.

Icebow

You lack discernment.

Overleaf

You mean if one religion (Islam) fights and kills to rule the state, and another religion separates church and state, you see no difference?

Comic.

Inattentive Vigilant

How many catholic priests have been sent to prison for raping little children? If the answer is zero, then the states of many countries have given religion and religious elites protected status. Not much of a wall there.

Overleaf

You are comic. Obviously you haven’t the faintest idea what separation of church and state means.

Put your money where your mouth is and move to Iran or KSA, and experience it.

How many priests were raping boys (your favorite subject) and how many priests are there altogether.

What about Imams ruling that it is OK to rape boys in Afghanistan/Pakistan?

Overleaf

And you say you hate all religions. But it seems you are just trying to say Islam is good religion and Xtianity is bad because they are colonialists and “imperialists”.

So say it — it is not that you are a real atheist like me who understands what separation of church and state means. You are just a postcolonial bigot.

Inattentive Vigilant

Btw: no religions separates church and state. Democratic governments do.

Overleaf

LOL, read the history of Europe. This was before the time of democracy. The church had to give up rulership long before we had democratic states emerge.

In any case you leftists hate democracy because you want socialist dictatorship. So pleeeez, don’t use that word “democracy” again.

Lazydaisy

Don’t be ridiculous. What you mean to say is “I hate Islam because it is vile in every possible way, but I am afraid to be called a bigot if I don’t lumpt it in with everything else.” Grow up and grow some testicles.

Inattentive Vigilant

I don’t agree that thinking belief in fairy tales is silly amounts to bigotry. I don’t hate anyone, I think religion is dangerous and inherently evil.

There is no difference between Islamic or Christian fundamentalism. To live by the literal translation of the Quran or the Old Testament amounts to the same levels of brutality.

Lazydaisy

Which is why we in the west don’t do so. But Muslims do follow the ravings of the old pedophile Mohammed to the letter. The main religion of the west is actually based on the NEW Testament, anyway, and if that was followed to the letter (the Gospels, anyway) the world would be a pretty good place. Do you really not hate anyone? Not even people who put on backpacks and set out to kill and mutilate families taking part in a fun-run?

Feride

Winter, surely? What happened to the subeditors round here?

darwins beard

I am shocked that when this stuff happens, which is quite often now, there is nothing from LGBT groups

Because everybody is terrified that one of the adherents of the ‘religion of peace’ will come round and cut their throats.

Overleaf

The fascism of Political Correctness is overwhelming.

UKSteve

“….attacks homosexuality as ‘an inexplicable aberration’”

He sounds as gay as Christmas at Hamleys.

Lazydaisy

I wonder how spacious his closet is?

UKSteve

Why, are you interested in joining him?

Lazydaisy

Nope, I suspect it’s mighty crowded in there, what with all the beards.

UKSteve

LMAO – nice 1

Arturaski

There is always something mighty suspicious about the spittle-flecked anti-gay rant brigade, especially when they refer to acts being ‘unnatural’.

Lazydaisy

Well, yes! I tend to wonder why they are so interested in what other people are doing with their genitals. Methinks they protest too much. And surely, if an act is achievable, it is also ‘natural’. Or maybe I am getting too technical here!

Re-Leaf

This coming from Murray! Not so long ago, an excitable little upstart, boastfully made the following remarks:

“It is late in the day, but Europe still has time to turn around the demographic time-bomb which will soon see a number of our largest cities fall to Muslim majorities. It has to. All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop.”

What are we to do about Islam? Speech by Douglas Murray at the Pim Fortuyn Memorial Conference 2006

Abhay

I don’t understand. What does your point have to do with what Douglas is saying in his article? Perhaps you can explain your polemic a bit more.

Overleaf

These Islamic-leftist bigots usually have no point but ad hominem.

Abhay

Yes. You are right. It’s very visible in some of the comments being written over here.

http://www.facebook.com/mussi.buma Mussi Buma

And Douglas Murray was ostracised by the Conservative Party for those remarks. Murray is not an advocate of a legal system that calls for the execution of muslims; but 40% of British muslims are advocates of sharia law, which does call for the execution of homosxuals. Future generations will recognise that Murray was right to speak out, and that the Conservative Party was no better than those appeasing Hitler in the 1930s.

For people like me who hate Islam, and I am an ex-Muslim, this is indeed a problem. I escaped an Islamic regime, and now Islam is following me.

Like most Europeans, I do not want to be bothered with fascistic and racist Islam.

Greg

This is a pretty poor piece. First Douglas says: “the speaker really doesn’t like gays”. Err, where did you get that from? The vid is not anti-gay people, it is anti-homosexual behaviour.

Then Douglas says there’s a chance the video might be two years old. What a stupid and disingenuous thing to say. Look at Tim Winter now and look at him in this video. He looks much older, at least 15 years.

CaediteEos

“The vid is not anti-gay people, it is anti-homosexual behaviour” – What a daft comment. So if someone said they were only “anti-islamic behaviour” rather than “anti-muslim” do you think they’d be any less likely to have the left-liberal twitter mob hounding them spitting cries of “bigot” and “racist”?

Suhaib Aslam

Not really, if you think about it. I’m muslim – criticize my beliefs, its your right – but don’t hate me as a person for holding those belief’s or traits. Likewise, anyone can disagree with homosexuality, but this doesn’t equate to hating the person. They are two different things. Takes a few steps from disagreement on a characteristic, to hatred of the entire person.

Overleaf

You are so disingenuous. If your belief is that women should be beaten and gays thrown off the cliff, or that Islam is superior because a deranged Mohammad said so, sure I will hate you. In fact society will hate you.

This Abdul-Hakim calls gayness a crime. So does that mean he does not hate the person? Stealing is hateful. So do you love thieves (those who behave by stealing)?

Abdul-Hakim does not say “I disagree with gayness.”. He says gayness is a crime, and Koran or Sharia says push them off a cliff, which is our duty to do.

Nice try but not when you distort the facts and when you cannot discern the difference between an idea (Islam) and a behaviour.

Lazydaisy

So – Himmler was a nice guy really… it was just his pesky beliefs? Is that what you’re saying? You ARE your beliefs! And frankly, the only “good” Muslim is the one on the run from the cult.

Overleaf

Exactly. It is possible to hate Islam, but treat Muslims like ordinary people. One is an idea or ideology, the other a person. But it is not possible to hate homosexual behaviour and treat gays ordinarily because you can’t separate the behaviour from the individual.

If a Muslim is an Islamist and beats his wife and sends money to suicide bombers, i.e. his behaviour is Islamic, then he should be discriminated against, such as put in jail.

Stephen Rothbart

So I guess as a religious Islamic follower, Murad is now actually in favour of homosexuality? Well that would be a first. Even if that were true your comment is ludicrous. How can you possibly not be anti-Gay if you are anti-homosexual behaviour?

Overleaf

What Greg is saying is that if gays just don’t practice their gayness, then we will leave them alone. So pathetic to hear this from a supposedly “enlightened” westerner. A true Islam-lover bigot.

Abhay

Did you put aside your brain in a jar while typing out this nonsense?

Overleaf

Lol – he subscribes and represents a religion that kills homosexuals for their behaviour. Is he differentiating that? No. Does he denounce killing gays? No.

When Islam says, throw a gay off the cliff, is Islam expressing dislike for the behaviour, or the individual?

You bigoted Islam lovers are quite comic.

sadsd

You know what

Islam is different and will have in a lot of cases views that are unliked by liberals in the West.
Picking on individuals for simply stating what there religion and what many other religions believe (in this case that homosexuality is sin) is not to get anything solved.

You have to be clear!!, You either have to stop beating around the bush and just call for Islam to be removed from the public sphere as a illegitimate since it has stuff that disagrees with western values (in that case that will be make you a bigot)

Or you just continue picking up on individuals like Tim Winters who merely believe what most muslims believe (though he may have worded it more crudely)

and achieve nothing much.

You decide, since the last option of trying to change Islam to match western values/norms in totality will be an impossible task unless you are naive to think so.

Inattentive Vigilant

The earth and its inhabitants would be well off if all religions were removed from the public sphere.

justejudexultionis

Do you think we should massacre them in the interests of peace?

Lazydaisy

No, that would be far too Islamic.

Inattentive Vigilant

That’s an odd question. That’s what religious people do. They follow the George Bush model of compassion where they bomb you into accepting that their tradition is superior to yours. Do you know what fundamentalist Christians think of Jews?

Me, I love everyone!

Overleaf

Bush did not bomb anyone. He took out Saddam Hussein, and all Iraqis thanked him for that, in particular the Kurds, whose lands were occupied by Saddam.

And no Bush did not impose American culture on anybody. The US proposed a democratic model for Iraq. And so far it has worked.

No more death squads knocking on your door ans making you disappear.

But of course bigoted leftists loved Saddam, and adored him for hating the West, and loved him for his national socialism.

Stephen Rothbart

Except George Bush it seems.

I know what some Christian fundamentalists think of Jews, and I know what some moderate Christians think about us too, along with atheists, Liberals, fascists and muslims and even some other Jews, but what is your point?

Arturaski

I think that is a pretty sweeping analysis, Stephen. Atheists and Liberals (and/or liberals)? Why would they have a fixed, negative view of all Jews? That isn’t my experience, and even if it is yours, do you really think it’s representative?

Overleaf

All religions are nonsense, but some are hateful like Islam that does not separate mosque and state.

If you think they are equal, then you must think shoplifting is equal to premeditated murder.

Inattentive Vigilant

And others rape little boys. Some steal land. Most start wars. Almost all reject science.

Overleaf

Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about when you equate “rape little boys” to the separation of church and state.

As bad as raping little boys is, it was not an officially sanctioned practice and the incidence was a very low rate.

Tell me, what was the rate? What percentage of Catholic priests raped boys?

On the other hand in Afghanistan, the Imams have officially given their Islamic blessing to wealthy bazaris to rape their underage help.

“Steal Land”??? You mean like Saddam stole all that land and oil from the Kurds, and displaced and slaughtered half a million of them??? Of course not. You have never heard of this. You mean the Joos getting their ancestral lands back.

If you don’t understand what separation of church and state is, then that is because leftist are counter-enlightenment.

Lazydaisy

Absolutely – but then the Left (and I speak as the renegade child and grandchild of Communists) have a vision of overseeing lines of happy, brainless peasants, trudging from one space to another like ants, never wishing to progress or seek individuality. To them, the Enlightenment is anathema – they really don’t want people to question. Therefore there are many aspects of Islam which they empathise with, just as the Nazis admired Islam to the extent that they were prepared to sanction the only “non-Ayran” SS divisions. There is an added spice to their support of Islam in that the Left are inherently racist, in the true sense of the word, and see all Muslims (whose racial origins are most often not European) as being “other” and therefore objects of pity. They then puff out their little chests and call us “racist” – those of us who recognise the equal ability of all humans to choose and follow an evil ideology.

Overleaf

So beautifully said.

Communists and Fascists are essentially one and the same — they only differ in their symbols and their gods (“the nation” vs. “the workers”). Both are socialist and totalitarian.

Lazydaisy

What I see at the root of the slavish following of these ideologies is fear – possibly of something as simple as making decisions and then taking responsibility for the outcome. To me, this is a form of moral suicide – deliberately killing their own individuality. The pursuit of happiness is a fine thing – but ultimately, our only “inalienable right” is to fulfil the potential of the individual we were born to be. And I find it incredible that, the more “religious” a person claims to be, the more likely they are to have attempted to distort the work of the Creator they claim to believe in.

anotherjoeblogs

lazydaisy is not so lazy when it comes to writing poignant stuff and using grey matter and getting beyond the trite often spouted by the loony left. one of the best on these blogs and others.

Lazydaisy

Ah, but you are forgetting that, sadly for you and your fellow backward fanatics, we live in a democracy, in which your existence in our country as a minority is only guaranteed by the goodwill of the majority. Sadly, you have been brainwashed, both by the evil old men who rant at you in mosques, and by the twittering traitors who defend your rights against those of the sane. You have been taught to believe that you are in some way special, some precious protected species which can never be brought into line or made to behave. Not so. You are outnumbered. You are outnumbered in a country, and in a continent, in which the people have had the courage to overthrow the backward fanatic – we are not like your societies, still grovelling to clerics. Get your nose out of the Koran and learn our history. Then learn to behave in a way we find appropriate, and give thanks every day that you – so far, if you don’t annoy us – have been granted the precious right for the time being, to live in our wonderful country, among our wonderful people. Be very, very grateful. You have no rights except those which we, the 97%, choose to allow you.

Suhaib Aslam

What a silly article. He should definitely not be sacked; as has been made consistently clear by his students – of all backgrounds – he doesn’t force his personal opinions on anyone and continually (in sermons) encourages people to think for themselves and only promotes compassion for his fellow human beings. He is an intellectual who really doesn’t have the crude world view you seem to think he does; but holds a much more nuanced position. If you’ve ever actually heard him talk on multiple occasions you would realise he’s an incredibly nice, compassionate, intensely intelligent person. He in no way advocates hatred of gay people – far, far from it – he doesn’t hate homosexuals, he might have a disagreeable view on the trait of homosexuality. How you can pedal such sensationalism, poses a deeper and more alarming question. Douglas, you are averse to anything Islam, and will quickly jump to criticise anything to do with it. However, this is not a case of Islamaphobia, just ignorance stemming from a failure to think.

Arturaski

Love that word, ‘nuanced’.

Given the chance to sit in front of a camera somewhere between 2 years and 20 years ago, Timbo gave me the strong impression of not liking gays. Is retracting the view after getting caught out the nuanced bit?

Overleaf

“nuanced” means, “you are right, but I need to obfuscate to show that you are wrong”.

Arturaski

Nicely put. I’ll bear that in mind.

Overleaf

“He doesnt hate homosexuals” ??? LOL — he says they are the worst criminals. What do we do to our worst criminals such as murderers? We put them to death. You are totally insincere and obfuscatory.

He represents an ideology/religion that says “push gays off the cliff”. Does he repudiate that? No – he says gayness is a crime, and the worst crime.

The favorite lefty weasel word “nuanced”. How is it possible to dislike a person’s identity or behaviour without disliking the person?

And it is not just a mere dislike — this is your attempt to derail the discussion. He calls them criminals (i.e. subject to punishment to the person) and he believes they should be pushed off the cliff. You are not sincere here (in Islam sincerity and honesty has no place – anything goes as long as it furthers the cause).

This is very different from someone who hates Islam, but does not hate the individual practicing Muslim as long as the person is law abiding.

And oh – he aint any “intellectual” (maybe only in the mind of bigoted leftists). If he were, he would repudiate Koran, that says, push them off the cliff.

All Islamic terrorists are very nice people individually when you meet them briefly. They are kind, hospitable, likable, passionate about the poor, etc. Then there are dupes.

Lazydaisy

Brilliant comment Overleaf!

Arturaski

Well said.

Lazydaisy

You are a Muslim and therefore biased in favour of bigotry and hatred toward any who disagree with your cult. You even use the word “Islamophobia” – a phobia is an irrational fear, whereas the fear of ugly religious maniacs who skulk around our streets in pyjamas, ranting filthy insults, brutalising their demented, veiled women, plotting mass murder, carrying out racist attacks on the peaceful non-Muslin population, trying to impose their vile methods of animal slaughter on us, then whining that they are victims, is very very real.

Cumberland

You have made it clearer, he is a good muslim,showing good muslim trait of taqiyya.

Cassim Jamal

In answer to the question posed by the author of the above article, Abdul Hakim Murad has not been sacked for the same reason the ‘racist’ Cambridge Economics don, Dr Martin Sewell, was not sacked. In June last year the media reported that Cambridge students were protesting and calling for his dismissal for what they said were his racist, misogynist, and anti-semitic views. We can also add to the list Cambridge’s Dr David Starkey and George Steiner’s racist statements….

Sarka

The sentiments expressed by Starkey and Steiner were only very marginally “racist”. The one thought black street gangsta culture helped fuel the riots (a view that has been voiced in more polite form by several black commentators), and Steiner wouldn’t like to live next to Jamaicans who played reggae alll day. A bit different from Sewell’s “blacks are of lower intelligence” and suggestion for some rehabilitation of eugenics. Sewell’s views are a little more worrying because one wonders how comfortable a black student would feel with him as a lecturer/tutor – or admissions interviewer. Or a female – since Sewell also believes that the emancipation of women (including presumably their presence in competitive academe) has harmed women.

But actually I would not even sack Sewell (provided his academic work in his own strict field is good, and there are no complaints from black or female students). I don’t like thought police.

So what about Winter? He’s a distinguished Arablic scholar, and presumably well qualified to teach Muslim theology – even if he seems strangely more ignorant than Murray on Muslim doctrines of death for apostasy. No need to sack him (would one sack a Catholic theologian for having strong views against homosexuality or contraception?), but Murray is right to publicise his views so people know what they are – and so understand something of the passions and evasions of this leading “moderate” Muslim member of the establishment.

I think it’s symptomatic that whereas academic Christian theologians (of whome there are many more, at Oxbridge and other institutions) are rarely coy about their views on doctrinal and ethical issues even where controversial (probably because even the most robust such views are not quite so unacceptable to mainstream opinion as imprisonment for apostasy, and among respectable theologians the vews on homosexuality are much more gently put), Muslim theologians are in a somewhat different position, and all too often seem a bit two-faced……

James Strong

He’s at a university, for heaven’s sake.
If people at university can’t say what they want without fear of dismissal then we’d be in a dreadful mess.
How on earth do you think progress occurs?
It doesn’t much matter that this Islamic ‘revert’ is wrong; you can’t know he’s wrong unless you examine his ideas.
By all means highlight the horrors of Islam, debate its value and position in the Western world, but to dismiss someone from a university because of his views and comments? Both ridiculous and dangerous.

Ron Todd

People at University should be able to say what they like, as should the rest of us. I am just some bloke who works in a factory what I say does not matter that much. What people in universities say does. As long as he is not advocating violence he should have free speech but if he is talking against the freedom of people to have what religion hey want or none no respectable educational establishment should be paying him to say what he believes.

Stephen Rothbart

I agree mostly with your point, but what makes you think what someone in a University says “counts” and what someone who works in factory says does not?

Ron Todd

Because he is in a position to influence people including those that might one day be our political masters. The only people I might influence are other people in the factory canteen (four tables nine chairs a kettle and a microwave but we still call it a canteen) and they have views of their own that I would not shift with a stick of dynamite and as none of them went to a good public school or Oxbridge and don’t know the right people it is very unlikely any of them will get high political office.

The normal anti-Islam rhetoric, especially in America is “They hate us because we’re free. They hate freedom!”

Well, I happen to be Muslim, but I have no political master. I deal with my life, liberty, and property as I wish, and I wish the same for all. I actually believe in freedom. I don’t need bureaucrats telling me what to eat. I don’t need some “scholar” telling me what to believe. God gave everyone a mind and a heart. If you and the guys you work with aren’t swayed in their beliefs by arrogant academics, more power to you all.

Lazydaisy

Joe, if you are a Muslim you most certainly have a “master” – because Islam means “surrender”. And if you consider yourself “free” it is because your freedoms have been won for you by Americans. There are no “free” Islamic states – the very idea is oxymoronic. You will find that Ron is wittily using irony, a fine point of western debate and rhetoric which has probably long been decapitated out of Islamic society along with every other form of protest and personal emancipation.

Ron Todd

No irony intended (and I have had too many cans of strong lager to attempt wit) I see an increasingly homogeneous political class that I fear is moving from wanting to control what we do to controlling what we think. Nobody can be totally free without restricting the freedom of others, few people certainly not me are able to live a moral life without the threat of legal sanction we need the right balance between the power of the state and the rights of the individual. We have an increasingly homogeneous political class not just elected politicians as represented by three party leaders who are three posh boys three rich boys but also those that run the ministries the quangos and the big charities which are largely state funded all with connections to each other. A true scholar is to me somebody who wants to expand our knowledge of the world which would exclude those that waste their intelligence in trying to justify the teachings of old books when they go against science and common sense.

Lazydaisy

It always makes me laugh when the idiots mention “Muslim scholars” – because there is no such thing, which is why they never win a Nobel prize! A Scholar must be able to learn and discover – not just waffle over a mad old pedophile’s ravings. They can’t engage in art because the old pedophile said reproducing living things was wrong; they can’t have comedy (they find a beheading more fun) they can’t have films (might dispute the blather that the old goat scribbled down.)

FrenchNewsonlin

“Muslim scholars”, and almost all of them are referred to by honorifics such as “Dr”. Often wondered why an enterprising journo hasn’t investigated the origin of these titles and the nature of this “scholarship” rather than just reporting it and them at face value.

Lazydaisy

They stopped learning in the 10th century. And if their Doctorate was granted by a University in any Islamic state it should never be recognised in the civilised world.

http://www.facebook.com/diane.moffatt.71 Diane Moffatt

Interesting – I understood Muslims were prohibited from drinking alcohol?

Lazydaisy

You aren’t following the discussion – Ron isn’t a Muslim – which is probably why his comments are intelligent and balanced.

edlancey

“I actually believe in freedom.”

You’re a slave of Allah, you idiot.

Stephen Rothbart

Try telling that to the BDS movements on campus, why don’t you. It does rather seem that where Islam is concerned, tolerance is a one way street.

http://www.facebook.com/mussi.buma Mussi Buma

If some academic at a British university was saying these things about muslims or blacks, he would be sacked. Ray Honeyford was hounded out of his job for far less. British universities have stopped members of UKIP from speaking because they were considered “too extreme”.

Only muslims are given a free pass to behave like fascists.

justejudexultionis

Muslims are, on the whole, touchy, chauvinist bullies who use fear and bigotry to spread their irrational creed.

Lazydaisy

Are you insane? In what way can anyone converting to Islam be said to have “progressed”? The cult is festering in the dark ages!

James Strong

Instead of asking silly questions like ‘Are you insane?’ why don’t you go back and read what I wrote?
I didn’t state, and I didn’t imply, that converting to Islam is progress.
What I clearly implied, and I implied it because I assumed that readers here would have some idea of the nature of discovery and learning and of the role of universities, was that progress is impossible if ideas that you don’t approve of are closed down.
Ideas can be tested, if they are mistaken or false they can be shown to be so.
But if ideas had been closed down then what world view would we have now?
Much, most (?) progress is made because of ideas that are new at the time.
Some new ideas prove to be correct, some prove to be incorrect.
If you close them down, how will you find out which is which?

Lazydaisy

I read what you wrote, and I have read it again, together with your response. And I say again – are you insane? Every Islamic country is marked by backwardness, bigotry violence, misogyny, at a level which the western world discarded in revulsion many centuries ago. They are not “new” ideas – they are 14 centuries old and just as evil as they were when first ranted by the demented old pedophile warlord Mohammed. I believe 14 centuries of research is quite enough to recognise – Islam is an instrument for retarded development, not progress. Do grow up – try, please, please try – just for a while – to live in the real world.

James Strong

Then you need to read it again, and you need to take a course in Reading Comprehension; and you should also think about the nature and function of a university.
I haven’t praised Islam in any way; and I haven’t said that Islam is a vehicle for progress, in fact I’m a regular commenter on here and on a couple of anti-Islam blogs where my views on Islam are quite clear.
And I haven’t claimed that Islamic ideas are new, anywhere.
I posted about the nature of ideas in a university and whether or not a member of a university should be dismissed for the ideas he holds. He should not.
Islam is not a vehicle for progress but universities are. I say again in a slightly different way to try to help you understand, and others have said similar things before me, ideas cannot be examined and evaluated if they are suppressed.
Now, since you got to the edge of insult in both your posts I will reciprocate. Go away, calm down and re-read; and if you still don’t understand then find a course in Reading Comprehension and do a little bit of simple study in the history and development of ideas in the Western tradition.
If you are an American then unless you went to one of their elite universities there is a strong chance that you are ill-informed about the world as a whole and do not understand the role of freedom in universities.
Go away and get educated.

Lazydaisy

How appalling your bigotry toward Americans is! Do you think that such a generalisation is acceptable? Tell me, what are your views on Eastern Europeans, Bangladeshis, Somalians? Do you feel quite so free to air your hatred of those groups? Actually, I am English, have a degree, worked in education, and have an IQ of 157 – there is nothing wrong with my comprehension, but there is much wrong with someone who is so obtuse that they are unable to make themselves understood. As we can all agree – unless we share the same sick proclivities – any westerner who chooses to convert to Islam does so because they find it is the only faith which enables them to exercise certain perversions and bigotries, and a level of misogyny which are absolutely unacceptable to enlightened thought. How long do you think a student would last if they told the old weirdo to shut up and sit down and stop spouting hate-speech? I think it would be measured in hours, rather than days. I am well aware of the function of Universities, and also well aware that they are ludicrously politically correct… as long as it is the CORRECT political correctness. Therefore, the insane ravings of a sick homophobic are tolerated. Thanks to his ilk – who tried to muzzle the general population – we now have legislation in place which forbids “hate speech”, and to their dismay this can also be used to silence their evil ravings. What this sick individual delivered was hate speech, and University students – whose future rests with not offending their tutors – are vulnerable people. He is entirely unfit in every way to be employed at any educational establishment anywhere in Europe or any other enlightened country. These are not the days of Aristotle – this is a sick homophobic who despises the society which nurtured him, enough to join forces with the enemies of that society. A University could, in a perfect world, encourage a free exchange of ideas, but that cannot include Islam, since the free exchange of ideas and the advance of knowledge is anathema to Islam. There is no place for Islam, or any person spouting Islamist ideas, in a place which purports to open minds.

Anony Mous

I.Q. of 157? Ignorancy it seems, has dumbed you down. Also have you looked into counseling? Clearly some serious underlying issues there.

Lazydaisy

“Ignorancy”? Not a word in general use since the 19th century. I think the issues all lie with the sort of creature which submerges reason, science and rational thought, together with moral responsibility, in a perverted doctrine of absolute obedience, and idolises a hideous group of murderous, semi-literate, bearded freaks who advocate emulating a mass-murderer who raped a nine-year-old girl, don’t you? Oh no – you probably think that is acceptable.

James Strong

1) Clearly I can make myself understood. My first comment that you took exception to received 30 up-votes. That’s not sufficient on its own to rate its merit as an argument but it is clear evidence that it was understood. It got 5 down-votes too, also evidence that it was understood.
2) Try using language a bit more precisely. I do not have bigotry or hatred towards Americans, but I stand by my view that there is a strong chance that an American not educated at one of the elite universities is ill-informed about the world as a whole.
3) It was a cheese-eating surrender monkey who wrote about despising ideas but defending to the death the right to express them. If you don’t know what a ‘cheese-eating surrender monkey’ is, and you don’t which of those it was, instantly and without research, then you are ill-educated in both 21st century and 18th century culture. So let’s try a quotation from Carl Sagan, writing in his book The Demon Haunted World., ‘The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.’
4) You now seem to understand that I said nothing positive about Islam in the first place, although in your latest comment that is only implicit rather than explicit. And it was that shortcoming in your Reading Comprehension that set you off.
5) Claiming an IQ of 157 is beyond parody.
Why on earth did you take the test? I don’t know anyone confident in their intellectual abilities who has chosen to take an IQ test. Do you know what an IQ test measures? It measures skill in taking an IQ test. If it really measured intelligence, and nobody fully understands what intelligence is anyway, then it wouldn’t be possible to improve performance by practice.

margaret benjamin

Intellect and knowledge are fine. But it is not Wisdom You have heard of the absent minded professor, He knew it all but couldn’t remember were he had left it. Get my drift.
Answers on a Postcard..

Lazydaisy

James Strong waffles and despises everyone, it seems. But he doesn’t seem to recognise when a university professor should be sacked for breaking the law by using hate-speech.

Lazydaisy

So you despise the French as well as the Americans? I am also well acquainted with works of the French Philosophes, and could supply numerous other Voltaire quotations, although I don’t have the personality disorder which drives you to set silly little tests for those who you wrongly consider to be your intellectual inferiors. ( Why are you so proud of having acquired such a basic level of knowledge of one of the greatest figures of the Enlightenment? It speaks volumes for your general level of ignorance and lack of education.) Numbered bullet-points are another pointer – not really the way to present an argument (if that is what you are trying to do.) You certainly suffer some form of social inadequacy; are you Asbergers, perhaps?
I have never known someone who is confident of their intellectual abilities who has been afraid to take an IQ test. I do find it strange that those like you who are long on pomposity and short on understanding are always willing to dismiss Mensa results as being just a method for measuring the ability to take IQ tests. Put simply, clever people score more highly than stupid ones – but perhaps you would say that Einstein (IQ 165 – he was also a member of Mensa; not afraid to fail the IQ test, you see?) lacked intelligence. Do you know another sign of a lack of confidence in your own intelligence? It is the absolute terror which you display, when challenged..

jjjj

Superb comment Douglas!

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

I think the term to explain the Cambridge University stance is DHIMMITUDE.
Like we see from the BBC, our government, even the Church who should be raising awareness of the Muslim persecution of Christians throughout the Islamic world.

We can expect these kind of Muslims to keep pushing our buttons so long as those in power keep ‘looking the other way’ under the pretence of tolerance or multiculturalism.

margaret benjamin

The Church certainly does speak out about persecution of Christians in Islamic countries! Maybe not the mainstream Church in the UK but the Christian watch who send out alerts regular .

Now the UK has so many Muslims yes they do turn the other way. We have allowed this country to turn into a free for all, given them a voice to the point if you disagree with their ways, You are Considered a raciest

Suhaib Aslam

Sorry, I’m Muslim and I’m certainly not against you criticising my religion – go for it, I’m not going to consider you a racist for doing that. However, when people start coming up with completely unfounded allegations such as most Muslims turn the other cheek to the suffering of non-muslims, consider you racist if you criticise Islam, want to take over the UK etc. I do feel slightly offended by such sweeping generalisations; but do not consider you a racist by any means. The media gives an outlet to a minority of Muslims who will criticise, marginalise and look down upon others for their own personal beliefs; but the vast majority of Muslims are not like this – and the sensationalism which arises from stories blurs this very real fact and tricks many people into believing the majority want to take-over the UK, impose their own beliefs forcibly upon others and what not. Persecution of Christians is certainly not a Muslim belief, just an ignorant/evil/despicable practice by a minority, just like the persecution/genocide by a minority of Buddhists of Rohingya Muslims in Burma. Indeed, previous Muslim civilisations welcomed peaceful interactions between different religions and were models for community cohesion.

http://www.facebook.com/mussi.buma Mussi Buma

” the vast majority of Muslims are not like this”

There’s at least 40% of British muslims who want sharia law, which is a form of apartheid that reduces jews/christians to serfs, and which legalises the massacre/enslavement of buddhists, pagans, atheists, etc. The islamic fascist party in the UK has been able to get 10,000 muslims at its conferences. That is the most popular fascist party in the UK by a long way, and those 10,000 muslims were drawn from a mere 5% of the UK population.

Even though muslims are only 5% of the UK population, there are 10 instances in the last decade where gangs of racist muslims have killed white people (and I’m not talking about the terrorists here). If the non-muslim population was as violent & racist, then for each of these racist murders by muslims there would be 20 cases of gangs of white men going out and killing muslims. But there are not. http://4freedoms.com/group/uk/forum/topics/racist-attacks-by-muslims

Since 2001, 250 muslims in Britain have been convicted of terrorism.

Sure the majority of muslims might not be terrorists, or violent racists, or members of a fascist party but it is perfectly obvious that the incidence of such features is far, far greater amongst the muslim population of Britain than in any other community.

If muslim immigration continues as it has for the last 30 years, we will have a civil war within the next 30 years.

James Strong

We need to distinguish between people who are born muslims but have lapsed and those who are muslims, still believe and follow Islam.
The second group are not to be trusted at all.
It is crystal clear in the Koran and the Hadith that under Sharia law in an Islamic society non-muslims will not have the same rights as muslims.

http://www.facebook.com/mussi.buma Mussi Buma

Never mind the Koran and the Hadith, have you seen the manifesto of Hizb ut Tahrir? Quilliam point out that the nazism of Hizb ut Tahrir has now spread to 20 major islamic organisations in Britain.

As for those muslims who have “lapsed”. I attended a talk by the gay muslim group IMAAN, where they stated they support the formation of the Caliphate. Even muslims who Hizb ut Tahrir would execute are our enemy.

The only muslim I trust is an avowed apostate. I have only met one such British muslim, and he was on the run because his family were trying to kill him.

Icebow

I have read that, and the Muslim Brotherhood’s ‘Project’, and the Hamas charter. Everyone should.

Arturaski

‘Born Muslims’? I’m not sure anyone in this country is born Muslim or any other religion. I’d like people to have the choice, and I’d like those individuals to know they had a choice.

Icebow

Doubtless there are many nice Muslims who don’t understand their own religion, but the Salafists will soon ‘correct’ them when the Islamic ratchet has gone far enough. In any event, how can we ever be sure that any apparently nice Muslim isn’t practising taqiyya?

http://www.facebook.com/mussi.buma Mussi Buma

I used to think that taqiyya was a bogus concept. Until I saw the video evidence of a prominent Sufi claiming to a western audience that he deplored the disgusting anti-blasphemy laws of Pakistan, meanwhile to a Pakistani audience he was glorying in his pivotal role in bringing in these disgusting laws. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=414745698580297

Equally I have seen many devout muslims profess ignorance about Mohammed’s (literal) war against unbelievers, then discovered there were westernized (apparently secular) muslims who were fully cognizant (and approving) of the means used to bring Mohammed’s opponents over to islam (namely, kill them if they don’t convert).

I know avowedly “anti-racist” muslims who proudly boast of their role in violent, anti-white racist gangs. Things are very rotten in Merrie Olde Englande.

Icebow

Have kept the link; thanks. I somehow think we shall not in the end wind up as teetotallers all getting up for the call of prayer; one can only hope that the correction will not prove to be too bloody.

margaret benjamin

Islam seeks to dominate through religion . This country is first and foremost Christian. I follow these things very carefully and Islam is not a peaceable religion anyone throughout the world will tell you that.
We know about Sharia law But not in Briton. We don’t want it.We already have Muslim countries were they can practise their religion and laws But not in the UK. This is not about ethnic minorities But respecting the values of our country .

Lazydaisy

While people like you – who call yourselves “moderate” – continue to make excuses and down-play the socially retarded bigotry so rife among Muslims, you will continue to create a situation where, in the end, a political party will be elected by the desperate majority, which will evict all of you. Make no mistake – you live in a democracy, therefore your rights are only defended at the will of the majority – and the majority is NON Muslim. If you wish to stay living in Britain, enjoying the freedoms and privelages which our ancestors won over centuries of courageous battling against the sort of backward religious freaks you follow, then you must renounce every single aspect of Islam which in any way differs from mainstream British society and public opinion, and publicly declare that the ravings of Mohammed mean nothing to you compared to your love for the wonderful country which we have allowed you to live in. But you won’t do this – because you are brainwashed from birth; and even if you did, the Koran recommends lying to the unbeliever, so your word is worth nothing. The fact is, without our protection and tolerance, Islam has no real place in any western society; it is utterly opposed to everything we hold dear. I think it is obvious now that you have pushed the easy-going people of the vast majority – 97%! – completely over the edge, and most of us would crack open the champagne if we were told you had all been deported.

Damon

@Lazydaisy

‘… you must renounce every single aspect of Islam which in any way differs from mainstream British society and public opinion, and publicly declare that the ravings of Mohammed mean nothing to you compared to your love for the wonderful country which we have allowed you to live in.’

… ‘and most of us would crack open the champagne if we were told you had all been deported.’

Congratulations. Probably the most absurdly bigoted post I’ve read on the Spectator’s comments board, and that’s against some exceptionally tough opposition.

One doesn’t have to approve of Islamofascism in order heartily to dislike the other side of the coin. And no, I’m *not* a Muslim – probably your next question. I’m a white Anglican of 100% British ancestry – one of the ‘majority’ whom you so blithely assume subscribe to your views. Thankfully, many of us don’t. It’s not that I think everything’s rosy in the Islamic garden. I just don’t like bigots of any stripe.

Lazydaisy

Oh, and PS – despite the squealings of Muslims and their supporters which have run scared from my entire realistic scenario, that comment already has several “thumbs up” – along with all the other anti-Islam comments. Do you get the picture?

Re-Leaf

Yes we get the picture. You form part of a lunatic fringe and the ‘thumbs up’ you received are from members of the same lunatic fringe, who visit this cesspit of a blog. Wow talk about delusions of grandeur!

Anyway, I have lots of fun watching you guys bash Muslims in virtually anyway possible! Please continue – it’s all very interesting!

Lazydaisy

The delusion is all yours, if you think that hatred for Islam is only confined to a lunatic fringe. It is that Islamic inability to face reality that will destroy the cult now that they have pushed their way into enlightened countries; you just can’t learn how to behave in a civilised way, can you? I have no idea who gives “thumbs up” to my comments, but you will find the same “thumbs up” on every single comment which is anti-Islam. In fact, the people outside your cult who support or excuse you are very thin on the ground, whereas anti-Islamist are everywhere. Remember we are your only guarantee of safety, won’t you?

edlancey

” Indeed, previous Muslim civilisations welcomed peaceful interactions
between different religions and were models for community cohesion.”

Lying fantasies. Even if Andalusia weren’t a myth (which it is), what other examples of can you point to in the last 1400 years ? Any time and place where non-muslims weren’t treated by dirt ?

Eddie

‘Were a Christian man called Timothy to have said such things he would almost certainly have been sacked by Cambridge University by now.’
Aye, there;s the rub. Anyone with a dark skin (usually) and a religion and a minority culture can get away with anything – child abuse, inciting hatred, being racist (anti-semitic), recommending violence against women, recommending the murder ot ex-Muslims, atheists and critics some old 7th century warlord called Mohammed. If a white non-religious person did the same, they’d get arrested and suspended from their jobs.
Let’s have equal treatment for all – no special treatment for ethnics or religious types, incl Muslims. How can anyone possibly argue against that? To do so is to recommend racism and also to put people in danger (all those poor women and children abused in Muslim communities).

Simon Semere

I’ve never heard someone complain so much about being part of the majority, any excuse to rant on, and they say women are the whingers. Cue another rant…

Dogsnob

“…peaceful interactions between different religions…”
Tell it to the Copts of Egypt. Tell the Christians of Syria, the Christians and Jews of Iraq, etc etc. In fact the best any minority religion can hope for in a Muslim country, is discriminatory taxation.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

Suhaib, you sound like a reasonable man, that by all accounts is able to understand our society, enjoys our society, and is integrating within it while staying true to the practice of your faith. I can also believe there are many other Muslims in this country like yourself.

So I have some questions for you. Since you can, or should therefore, understand the reasons for our concerns, that are not without foundation, how do you think we should view them?

Do you think that moderate Muslims like yourself can and should do more to distance themselves from those more radical and extremist? Otherwise it seems that the ‘moderates’ are merely ‘sitting on the fence’ and whatever happens is okay with them.

If you truly understand our concerns, and trust me we are familiar with the strategy of radical Islam, and see their ploys, as I believe so would you, do you see the predicament we are in, and by extension, as you are yourself, but for different reasons?

Lazydaisy

Teddy Bear, you will never get an honest answer because the fact is there is no such thing as a moderate or integrated Muslim if he is practicing Islam. He will never support a non-Muslim against a Muslim, and he has been taught to lie to unbelievers. The day he learns reason, and integrates, he ceases to be a Muslim. So we can’t reason with them, because our reasoning goes right over their heads. Ours is the reason of a culture which has experienced the Renaissance, the Reformation, The Enlightenment – his is the irrationality of a cult which has been kept deliberately stagnant for fourteen hundred years.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

Daisy I think you are being too cynical. I’ve met many Muslims in my life who don’t worship death, and you make a mistake if you lump them all together. They too are in a predicament, and only by thinking it through can any real solution be found.

As to getting an honest answer, I trust my judgement to recognise the difference

Cumberland

If you wish to know of Christianity it would be no good asking a Christian, you would get one persons view; much better you read the New Testament. So why ask a muslim, you will get the same. Ask Mohammad, read the books,as they and they alone are the authority, this is where you will find the real islam.

Lazydaisy

I would find the “real Hitler” in Mein Kampf, but that doesn’t mean it should be recommended reading for consideration as an acceptable ideology. To quote Jesus “By their fruits you shall know them” – and the fruits of Islam are rotten.

Cumberland

True, Mohammed tells it as it is, not a taqiyya inspired version. Thank you for your very direct comments, an inspiring read.

http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

I did not ask about Islam, real or otherwise.

http://twitter.com/suhaibaslam suhaib aslam

I wrote a really long answer to this! But somehow disqus has failed to post it and I no longer have it. I have my first-year exams coming up soon, so I’ll try and reply sometime soon!

margaret benjamin

Its true to say that the ideology is awaiting a muslim messiah as they are in Iran. the twelfth Imam who will slay all the infidels, namely Christians/ Jews / ect and rule the world. They have the nerve to take my Messiah Christ Jesus/ Yeshua
call him no more than a prophet who will serve your Aspirations, these are your teachings So please don’t insult me. Lets not forget about were the house of Islam rules you have peace,and the opposite is true also,or maybe all this is something you never heard of before! We know your beliefs well, I could go on, Nobody associates Peace with Islam.

Lazydaisy

Quite apart from the evidence – that at the bottom of 99% of terrorism you will find Islam, and Islamic states are without fail backward, bigoted and violent – how can an ideology which sprang from the ravings of a pedophile warlord, who boasted of having personally killed many thousands of people, be “peaceful”? Into the bargain, we now have the DNA evidence to prove that, during the active lifetime of Mohammed, in lands he controlled, one man alone was responsible for so many offspring that he has left a permanent DNA marker – the individual was a mass rapist on a truly horrific scale. Who might that have been?

margaret benjamin

I see your point and read your posts, what a shame this country has no knowledge of these truths! Shalom.

FrenchNewsonlin

“You are Considered a raciest”. Might the UKIP election earthquake possibly mark the start of a return to common sense and an end to ‘political correctness’, ‘hate speech’ and the rest of the poisonous Gramsci armoury?

margaret benjamin

I am not a raciest because I don’t like Islam! Oil & water do not mix iv met plenty of Egyptians Coptic very nice people, don’t care if their pink with blue spots, on the other hand that President morsi has had Christians crucified ! No reason just because they were Christian . In Iran many a godly man has been murdered ,they don’t like Christians its a fact. to call this a raciest Issue is pathetic. We don’t like Islam, Now if that religion were memorable peace loving tolerant , I could understand you taking offence.The Christian roots go way deep down in Briton, No room for religious violence So sling your hook.

Arturaski

‘President Morsi has had Christians crucified’

Are you sure about that? Those sources don’t look solid to me, especially not with an ever receding brace of quotes supporting the claim.

margaret benjamin

You best check that out for yourself it would take to long here. Yes they were crucified outside the palace for all to see.

John Pitcher

No: I don’t think it amounts to an earthquake.

John Pitcher

I think rthat is just an excuse for people to do nothing. You prate about being called names and being fearful of PC but where is your courage? You are facing very little. Show some courage. If you feel wronged then say so. And it would help if your armies stopped killing people who are mostly not Christians too.

margaret benjamin

Israel does not go killing people for any reason, unless provoked or attacked. As any other nation it has the rights to defend itself and for the safety of the Jewish State. Answers on a postcard.

John Pitcher

No Muslim majority state (let alone an Islamic State) has attacked any other, in recent history, either has it?

Only Western Democratic ‘Christian’ states (or at least ones that claim their ‘civilisation’ is based on Christian ethics) have recently attacked anyone with no good cause; and continued the attack for years without respite. They have done this with the agreement of their electorates. No Muslim community anywhere has democratically authorised terrorists to represent them; or fight on their behalf.

The IDF is as much a terror organisation as HAMAS. They, like HAMAS, attack civilians and do so with democratic authority.

margaret benjamin

What are you babbling on about you Moron. You have absolutely no idea what your saying.What you don’t know you make up. Israel is a sovereign state and has the right to defend herself against anyone who attacks, they will be met with overwhelming power and twice as hard . stick to what you know Granddad.No Reply……Answers on a postcard .

Lazydaisy

Disqus are also subject to the state of slavery, because – for the first time on any comments section – our comments are now subject to “awaiting moderation”! Therefore, you can bet, they are being “moderated” by one of the cult members, or a supporter of beheadings, female genital mutilation, and all the other vileness that is Islam, in case we upset them. Diddums!

John Pitcher

There is Christian and Buddhist persecution of Muslims everywhere too. read the news items that make you embarrassed for a change. Look at the wars you have started and consider the reasons behind them and how these reasons appear to others.

I don’t believe anyone is looking the other way. terrorism is being dealt with worldwide in an efficient manner; whether it is the terrorism attached to Islam or anything else. Islam, even the most conservative kind, does not mandate terror and murder and war anymore than does Christianity or Judaism. All can be perverted to justify a ‘just war’ or ‘violent jihad’.