with airbus making the a380 do you think boeing will ever pull for 2 decks or just a more extended 747 , i know right now they dont have time for it with the company at risk with the 787s issuses but what do you think?

I'm not sure it's really a risk issue (a la 787), but simply the fact that airlines don't have a continuing need for new VLAs like the A380/747-8.

Boeing's foray into the Extended 747 market has already been executed, with the introduction of the 747-8. As you may well know, the passenger variant hasn't really caught on. Lufthansa is the largest operator with 19 frames ordered, while KE, W3, and CA ordering smaller subfleets.

It seems to me that the industry is generally shifting to frequency versus capacity, with the exception of some major, slot-controlled routes (like DXB-JFK/LHR on EK, where the A380 works well). Airbus introduced the A380 at the right time and sold it to the right customers, and it has been successful.

But in my opinion, the market for these types of aircraft is drying up, and Boeing has already made their move. Perhaps in the future conditions will be different, and there will be a need for a variant VLA to be introduced. But that time is not now, and Boeing will stick to what they're good at.

I can see Boeing making a double decker aircraft, in like 20-30 years. As AA94 says, Airbus really got the timing right on it and it may seem that around 260 orders doesn't seem like a lot, but right now, that's all the market can hold.

That said, with new technologies coming out and engine performance only getting better, Boeing will most likely create one, and it won't surprise me. Just the time isn't right, yet.

Maybe it will be the 7107, with the moniker, "Double the digits, double the decks." And with 4 GE-90-115B's!!!

Quoting AA94 (Reply 1):
It seems to me that the industry is generally shifting to frequency versus capacity, [...]

This is certainly a very US-centered perspective, where such a development no doubt seems to take place. Outside the US and on longer routes, the lower seat mile costs and, as you said, the need for fewer slots when using VLAs are certainly attractive for many airlines.

When we take a look at the list of airlines that operate and/or have ordered VLAs, it is not surprising that a European manufacturer took the lead...

Quoting piedmont727 (Thread starter):with airbus making the a380 do you think boeing will ever pull for 2 decks or just a more extended 747

If it happens, I don't think it'll happen for quite some time. I think Boeing made the right call not to launch an all new "VLA" to combat the A380 because of the dearth of orders at that end of the market. If Boeing ever go down that route, I think it will be aimed as an A380 replacement, maybe 20 years down the track.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 4):Wasn't one of the 747-X proposals showing the full-length upper deck extension, after Airbus first proposed what became the A380? They determined it was too big.

This was never in the cards. A double decker 747 has a new wingbox. New wingbox means new aircraft. That's all there is to it.

The A380 did not kill the 747 because of the mismanagement of the program (dropped freighter). It is a disgrace (if you invest as much as Airbus did, you certainly hope to kill the 40yo competition). Now maybe it is a blessing in disguise for Airbus because the fact that the 747 is still alive is giving Boeing a full line-up. So the slowly disappearing 747 (at this point, maybe it can pick up more sales) may be a fig leaf for hiding that Boeing pretty much gave that away to Airbus.

If Boeing had no plane bigger than the 777, it would clearly look like a number two compared to Airbus (whatever the yearly fluctuations in sales). Now maybe you're gonna say: "It's a business, not a schoolyard". But then I'd suggest you examine why Airbus launched the A380 in the first place and can you be really certain that prestige had no place in the equation?

Anyway, if the 747 had been stopped, I would have said Boeing would have launch a VLA by 2025. With the 747 still around, I'd say there won't be a new Boeing VLA before 2035.

And let's not forget that traffic is increasing every year. There is room from everybody, including an airplane making the most of the 80mX80m parking spots. This size is covered by the A380 and it will prevent Boeing to play the "Airbus card" by making something slightly bigger than the competition. If they want to do bigger than Airbus, they have to change airports around the world.

Quoting sweair (Reply 11):Only a double decker BWB I see no tube and wing at B in that size class. It is really a tiny market, way less than 500 frames in 20 years!!

Stupidity to go after this micro segment!

Markets aren't static, they develop and usually change. Realistically the time-frame for a Boeing double decker (or BWB) would be 2030-2035. What is now a 'micro', but still multi-billion dollar market, can easily turn into a very sizeable one (not in market share but in value) given a projected doubling of passenger traffic by that period. Frequency increase can only take you so far.

The ongoing NASA/Boeing X48C test flights are not just for fun, I think they see a clear advantage in the BWB shape of aircraft and cabins of non circular shape working now that composite materials become mainstream. I envision a freighter first, aft ramp loading no nose door.

And if and when the industry is ready to take the step we might see a passenger BWB being built. Doing a double decker of a BWB is less painful as the body is quite suited from the start, fat but not very long.

Boeing in the 1990s did study a double decker a/c design that was not based on the 747 called the New Large Airplane (NLA) but opted to pursue new variants of the 747.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 4):Wasn't one of the 747-X proposals showing the full-length upper deck extension, after Airbus first proposed what became the A380? They determined it was too big.

There was a more recent design study for a double deck 747 (At least enough of one to commission a model.):

Supposedly the costs to develop this version were going to be in the $5 billion range (mainly because of the costs to design and certification of a new wingbox) and Boeing opted against pursuing it in favor of less radical designs.

The 747 variants Boeing proposed after the 744 (747-500X, 747-600X, 747-700X, 747X) did not have a full upper deck but in some of the proposals, the upper deck had increased capacity as the fuselage was stretched and this allowed for a longer upper deck.

2 decks ? in case of the A380 it is 2 decks on the passenger side, but only ONE deck for cargo+mail. Boeing might win the day with a double-double plane, which means not only double-deck above but also two decks below !

Well Boeing and Airbus have one thing in common....VERY UGLY double decker aircraft.....lololol

I'm not sure what an wing box is and presume it's where the wing attaches to the fuselage and inter connects with the landing gear. The drawing of a 2 engine Boeing double decker has the engines looking VERY BIG and high off the ground.
How tall would the gear have to be!!!!!!!

Quoting sweair (Reply 11):Only a double decker BWB I see no tube and wing at B in that size class. It is really a tiny market, way less than 500 frames in 20 years!!

A BWB is almost certainly going to be very wide in terms of seating, and not two decks. A major lower limit on the size of a BWB airliner is the need to humans to fit vertically into the cabin section, having a double deck would push you into an absolutely huge size. It's likely that not even cargo will be carried under the passenger section, rather it will go into compartments in the "wing" further outboard from the passenger section.

Quoting sweair (Reply 14):
And if and when the industry is ready to take the step we might see a passenger BWB being built. Doing a double decker of a BWB is less painful as the body is quite suited from the start, fat but not very long.

my thoughts exactly.

56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.

25 canyonblue17
: Any chance a Boeing (or Airbus for that matter) double decker could be used efficiently enough to justify them on short haul routes? For example, if y

26 prebennorholm
: No need to wonder. The B377-SG (Super Guppy) flew for many years with Allison 501 turboprops.