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Originally posted by Asm0deusJust keep them gambling lockboxes out of the game please!

Good luck with that, those or a similar mechanic have appeared in all the PWE games I bothered to look up, for those in Asia release. Or a cash shop so restrictive or unbalancing that there is no way Western gamers would put up with it.

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Can't wait to test this out.. I'll keep giving them a chance to get it right.. BTW i'm in champions online and STO and love both of them, the cash shop is tempting but not necessary for me to enjoy both games..

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Originally posted by rygard49The Foundry system is something I think has the potential to change the genre. I'm excited about it, but I'm also cynical that most MMO gamers from the new generation will ignore it completely and move on before it has a chance to fly.

I doubt it'll change the genre. It's not the first game to allow players to build their own dungeons/content. CoX, SWG, and Saga of Ryzom also had this. The genre hasn't changed because of it.

I want to be excited about this game, and the foundry is definitely something to be excited about! My only issue is the action combat, that's NOT D&D. I have a huge problem reading all these articles about how they are trying to capture D&D with this game, yet to me D&D is turn-based combat!

We'll see, I'll definitely give it a shot; I hope I get into that Beta soon.

everything outside of action combat is DEAD for new mmo's - no one wants tab targeting and excel fighting anymore...this is not a pen and paper game its a computer game so god damn use its possibilities!

traditional mmo combat is freakin boring

not for everyone obviously.. i like the action combat style but can see the appeal of the traditional way.. I just got xcom which is completely turn based game and having a blast with it.

the thing is - there are HUNDREDS of mmo's with that kind of combat - play one of those...besides, mmo have the worst kind of combat since it is NO tactical combat, its just repetitive boring crapp

tactical turn based combat is absolutely fine but i think its very hard to pull off in an mmo and get good results...i also think it works better for strategy games where you are able to use several characters...

all based on design and doesn't need to be like that.. but it is true for the most part.. have you tried atlantica online? has a nice turn based strategic combat system and is a MMO.. only issues is many of it's other game features are greatly lacking.

I'm having the same gripe about this game and it's one of the major reasons I'm not excited or even looking forward to this game. DnD is and has always been a turn-based RPG to me. Just look at the Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter series to know what I mean. If you all think those games weren't challenging and didn't requires tactics and strategy, I don't know what to tell you.

Action combat puts the challenge on twitch skills mostly, because the combat is so frantic you can't really make skill/ability usage the main focus. Action combat is usually about a lot of mouse clicking, character moving and dodging. That IMHO gets old fast and isn't conducive to allowing players to chat with each other and build a community/friendships. Tactical turn-based combat, like in Baldur's Gate, will allow players to think about their opponents and how to counter their strengths and weaknesses, all the while being able to eat a sandwich and talk with the community.

I want to be excited about this game, and the foundry is definitely something to be excited about! My only issue is the action combat, that's NOT D&D. I have a huge problem reading all these articles about how they are trying to capture D&D with this game, yet to me D&D is turn-based combat!

We'll see, I'll definitely give it a shot; I hope I get into that Beta soon.

everything outside of action combat is DEAD for new mmo's - no one wants tab targeting and excel fighting anymore...this is not a pen and paper game its a computer game so god damn use its possibilities!

traditional mmo combat is freakin boring

not for everyone obviously.. i like the action combat style but can see the appeal of the traditional way.. I just got xcom which is completely turn based game and having a blast with it.

the thing is - there are HUNDREDS of mmo's with that kind of combat - play one of those...besides, mmo have the worst kind of combat since it is NO tactical combat, its just repetitive boring crapp

tactical turn based combat is absolutely fine but i think its very hard to pull off in an mmo and get good results...i also think it works better for strategy games where you are able to use several characters...

all based on design and doesn't need to be like that.. but it is true for the most part.. have you tried atlantica online? has a nice turn based strategic combat system and is a MMO.. only issues is many of it's other game features are greatly lacking.

I'm having the same gripe about this game and it's one of the major reasons I'm not excited or even looking forward to this game. DnD is and has always been a turn-based RPG to me. Just look at the Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter series to know what I mean. If you all think those games weren't challenging and didn't requires tactics and strategy, I don't know what to tell you.

Action combat puts the challenge on twitch skills mostly, because the combat is so frantic you can't really make skill/ability usage the main focus. Action combat is usually about a lot of mouse clicking, character moving and dodging. That IMHO gets old fast and isn't conducive to allowing players to chat with each other and build a community/friendships. Tactical turn-based combat, like in Baldur's Gate, will allow players to think about their opponents and how to counter their strengths and weaknesses, all the while being able to eat a sandwich and talk with the community.

First, I don't want to be chatting while I'm fighting. If I have time to type a mesage to my friends while I'm in combat, something has gone horribly wrong with the combat design (See WoW for some combt you can chat through)

D&D has always been about action combat at it's core. Pre-planning tatics has always been necessary, and with action combat, pre-planning comes into play again. With a turn based system, you can dive in, see what happens, then sit nice and still on your turn figuring out what to do. Talk about a snail's pace, and a recipe for a dull MMO. No, I'll take the fluid pace of action combat over running up to an enemy, declaring intent for combat, letting some virtual dice roll to determine who goes first, and then taking my time to play Math! The Fighting Game! (Do I have a high enough Str modifier to overcome his AC?? What about my reflex save?? Oh God, where did I put my spreadsheet???)

At least with an action based system, I can make use of things like Tumble skills (Acrobatics, like being able to jump higher to get around an obstacle an opponent can't), speed advantages (actually moving faster than my enemies, rather than having a higher number than them that let's me move first) and skill combos all in real time. I know the PNP D&D was exactly as I just described, but those are the limitations of a PNP system, which is why they don't work or even need to work in a system like an MMO.

Think about it. In a turn based game, it completely boils down to just the numbers in my character sheet. Rather than putting points into the Dodge skill simply to raise a flat %, I'd much rather points spent in Dodge to say, raise the duration of the invincibility frames, or let you dodge further in a single attempt for instance. The game comes alive in an action combat system, where with a turn based system, we get D&D with a fancy GUI, and far too many limitations to make the experience as enjoyable as the actual PNP experience.

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Originally posted by veccon

First, I don't want to be chatting while I'm fighting. If I have time to type a mesage to my friends while I'm in combat, something has gone horribly wrong with the combat design (See WoW for some combt you can chat through)

D&D has always been about action combat at it's core. Pre-planning tatics has always been necessary, and with action combat, pre-planning comes into play again. With a turn based system, you can dive in, see what happens, then sit nice and still on your turn figuring out what to do. Talk about a snail's pace, and a recipe for a dull MMO. No, I'll take the fluid pace of action combat over running up to an enemy, declaring intent for combat, letting some virtual dice roll to determine who goes first, and then taking my time to play Math! The Fighting Game! (Do I have a high enough Str modifier to overcome his AC?? What about my reflex save?? Oh God, where did I put my spreadsheet???)

At least with an action based system, I can make use of things like Tumble skills (Acrobatics, like being able to jump higher to get around an obstacle an opponent can't), speed advantages (actually moving faster than my enemies, rather than having a higher number than them that let's me move first) and skill combos all in real time. I know the PNP D&D was exactly as I just described, but those are the limitations of a PNP system, which is why they don't work or even need to work in a system like an MMO.

Think about it. In a turn based game, it completely boils down to just the numbers in my character sheet. Rather than putting points into the Dodge skill simply to raise a flat %, I'd much rather points spent in Dodge to say, raise the duration of the invincibility frames, or let you dodge further in a single attempt for instance. The game comes alive in an action combat system, where with a turn based system, we get D&D with a fancy GUI, and far too many limitations to make the experience as enjoyable as the actual PNP experience.

/endrant

that's not true at all as most turn based games are based on tactics and strategy.. yes numbers matter but good tactics trump numbers... not to misunderstand I love action based games but many still love the slower strategic combat style.

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Originally posted by Aerowyn

that's not true at all as most turn based games are based on tactics and strategy.. yes numbers matter but good tactics trump numbers... not to misunderstand I love action based games but many still love the slower strategic combat style.

I agree, but since we're (as in the mmorpg.com community) so pedantic and literal at times I think it's important to qualify: Slower combat style doesn't automatically make it strategic. Fast action-oriented combat can also have strong strategy elements. It really depends on the system design.

D&D can be many things to many people - an action combat version of D&D is not contrary to the game philosophy at all. That doesn't mean that strategic turn based combat versions of D&D are outdated or lack fun either. They are two different options and perspectives to the game play.

Harkening back to the pnp days, we often redefined rules, added some from other systems (e.g.: I.C.E's rolemaster). Sometimes I just played with one friend where one of us would DM and controls som party NPCs and the player might control 1 or more player characters (Obsidian style). Sometimes I would play single player when I didn't have any friends close by to play with. The point is that I think people that want to project how others should enjoy their D&D experience are out of line. I will understand if someone doesn't like Neverwinter, but don't tell me it's not D&D or that it shouldn't have "feature X". It is their D&D game to present how they will.

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Originally posted by veccon

First, I don't want to be chatting while I'm fighting. If I have time to type a mesage to my friends while I'm in combat, something has gone horribly wrong with the combat design (See WoW for some combt you can chat through)

D&D has always been about action combat at it's core. Pre-planning tatics has always been necessary, and with action combat, pre-planning comes into play again. With a turn based system, you can dive in, see what happens, then sit nice and still on your turn figuring out what to do. Talk about a snail's pace, and a recipe for a dull MMO. No, I'll take the fluid pace of action combat over running up to an enemy, declaring intent for combat, letting some virtual dice roll to determine who goes first, and then taking my time to play Math! The Fighting Game! (Do I have a high enough Str modifier to overcome his AC?? What about my reflex save?? Oh God, where did I put my spreadsheet???)

At least with an action based system, I can make use of things like Tumble skills (Acrobatics, like being able to jump higher to get around an obstacle an opponent can't), speed advantages (actually moving faster than my enemies, rather than having a higher number than them that let's me move first) and skill combos all in real time. I know the PNP D&D was exactly as I just described, but those are the limitations of a PNP system, which is why they don't work or even need to work in a system like an MMO.

Think about it. In a turn based game, it completely boils down to just the numbers in my character sheet. Rather than putting points into the Dodge skill simply to raise a flat %, I'd much rather points spent in Dodge to say, raise the duration of the invincibility frames, or let you dodge further in a single attempt for instance. The game comes alive in an action combat system, where with a turn based system, we get D&D with a fancy GUI, and far too many limitations to make the experience as enjoyable as the actual PNP experience.

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First, I don't want to be chatting while I'm fighting. If I have time to type a mesage to my friends while I'm in combat, something has gone horribly wrong with the combat design (See WoW for some combt you can chat through)

D&D has always been about action combat at it's core. Pre-planning tatics has always been necessary, and with action combat, pre-planning comes into play again. With a turn based system, you can dive in, see what happens, then sit nice and still on your turn figuring out what to do. Talk about a snail's pace, and a recipe for a dull MMO. No, I'll take the fluid pace of action combat over running up to an enemy, declaring intent for combat, letting some virtual dice roll to determine who goes first, and then taking my time to play Math! The Fighting Game! (Do I have a high enough Str modifier to overcome his AC?? What about my reflex save?? Oh God, where did I put my spreadsheet???)

At least with an action based system, I can make use of things like Tumble skills (Acrobatics, like being able to jump higher to get around an obstacle an opponent can't), speed advantages (actually moving faster than my enemies, rather than having a higher number than them that let's me move first) and skill combos all in real time. I know the PNP D&D was exactly as I just described, but those are the limitations of a PNP system, which is why they don't work or even need to work in a system like an MMO.

Think about it. In a turn based game, it completely boils down to just the numbers in my character sheet. Rather than putting points into the Dodge skill simply to raise a flat %, I'd much rather points spent in Dodge to say, raise the duration of the invincibility frames, or let you dodge further in a single attempt for instance. The game comes alive in an action combat system, where with a turn based system, we get D&D with a fancy GUI, and far too many limitations to make the experience as enjoyable as the actual PNP experience.

/endrant

Every game I have ever played number crunches, does the math as you put it, hell there are hundreds if not thousands of web pages out there dedicated to just that, to name a few famous ones, Elitest jerk, Wowhead, hell even these forums do it, people posting build, what is better than what, its all number crunching, stats, charts it goes on and on, all math, unless you make a game that is 100% random you will always deal with stats.

I agree a game that pauses at the end of each turn is not as fluid as an mmo, but an mmo is not about fast pace action, go go go, thats a fps, and even those have voice chat so you can work as a team, MMO are all about chat/text about comunicating with your fellow man/woman/orc, they are made so you cant just solo the whole game, if you want that then play a single player game, but to take chat out of an MMO is just madness, that said I agree that in combat texting is not the best way to get a message across that is why more and more mmos are putting in voice chat, which is a double bladed sword, great for communication, bad for atmosphere, really takes you out of any feeling of attachement to a toon when you have an 8 year old that wont go to bed screaming in your ear on a raid.

I would like them to stay true to DnD rule with all the stats and things, but not turn based, DnD online managed this very well, I hope they build on this for Neverwinter.

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The real problem with player generated content is rewards. No multiplayer game I know of with player generated content has ever had decent rewards to speak of which makes it fluff. At best you get tokens which can be exchanged at some huge number for the same stuff you can get from mid grade developer generated content. For player generated content to really matter the Dev's need to find a way to grade the content and create meaninful rewards for running it. Not a easy task for sure.

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Originally posted by udonThe real problem with player generated content is rewards. No multiplayer game I know of with player generated content has ever had decent rewards to speak of which makes it fluff. At best you get tokens which can be exchanged at some huge number for the same stuff you can get from mid grade developer generated content. For player generated content to really matter the Dev's need to find a way to grade the content and create meaninful rewards for running it. Not a easy task for sure.

Full control over loot would be too exploitable. Maybe they will have some sort of monster template system that includes drops. I do agree though that how they handle this aspect of it will have a major impact on how much people use it.