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Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

Was he injured down the stretch these past two seasons? Did he play limited minutes in the first two games against Seattle in this year's playoffs, which they lost? Has he ever led a team out of the 2nd round? Are you going to keep bringing up Brad ad nauseum?

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

The argument is weak. He hasn't "led" a team past the first-round? When was he expected to lead? Never. And here's a little news bulletin for you: The Kings went 7 games into the 2nd round last year. Brad played in every game of it.

But you wouldn't even know that, yet you continue to pretend you're some expert. Donnie keeps Brad, and you'd be throwing out your "look at me, I'm smarter than you" routine with those that wanted him out. Your opinion is just regurgitation of what your sources tell you.

In fact, let's take a closer look at what you obviously know about, but for the others who are watching, I'll inform them.

Game 5, 0 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 block, and 1 steal. There it is!! This is the evidence that negates everything because he didn't score! Sure, the rest of his stats are still solid as all hell for a center, but don't tell anyone OK?! Just let him go quietly into the night.

Game 6, 17 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals. I'd have a case if he was healthy after the all-st-- oops.

I'll tell you what. I'll throw you a bone here. This season, he wasn't so nice in the playoffs.

At first.

Not playing for 6 weeks does that to people. And yes, it's his freak injury as to why he was out. But here's the part no one in your camp wants to talk about. He got better.

Hell, upon further review, even his first game in the series (Game 1), he wasn't awful in the time he played. 8 minutes (read: not a lot of time) he still managed 7 points, 4 rebounds, and 3 assists. 8 minutes. Jeff would have about 2 and 5 and 0 in about that amount of time if he was having a good night.

Game 2? Blah numbers. 6 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist in 17 minutes.

Game 3? 14 points, 3 rebounds, and 1 block. Not good enough, but showing signs of what was to follow:

Game 5: 14 points, 6 rebounds, 11 assists. Back to being that money-pit, never plays past Feb. player.

Clearly getting back up to speed before his team lost. Not surprising; a 7 seed losing to a 2. If you expected Brad to be their best player and "lead them" on further, blame whatever idiot thought Brad should be the best player on the team, no him. Brad should be the 3rd best player. As he was and would still be here behind Jermaine and Artest.

exposed

adj 1: with no protection or shield; "the exposed northeast frontier"; "open to the weather"; "an open wound" [syn: open] 2: not covered with clothing; "her exposed breast" [syn: uncovered]

This "argument" pisses me off. And when I see people making these idiodic comments based on un-informed, half-truth, throw-away statements, they will hear from me.

You have your cheap one-liners, and your spoon-fed opinion. I have facts, and something resembling real basketball knowledge. So the next time you or anyone else wants to speak up about this, show some basic respect to me, Peck, or anyone else beyond a crappy, smartass attitude, and bring real facts to the table, other than "I just know because that's what I was told by can't-tell-you" and garbage slogan-esque answers.

*

(Let it be stated for the record that I am a big Jeff Foster fan, but he leaves himself open to this comparison being what he is: A great bench C/F and nothing more)

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

But you wouldn't even know that, yet you continue to pretend you're some expert. Donnie keeps Brad, and you'd be throwing out your "look at me, I'm smarter than you" routine with those that wanted him out. Your opinion is just regurgitation of what your sources tell you.

You have your cheap one-liners, and your spoon-fed opinion. I have facts, and something resembling real basketball knowledge. So the next time you or anyone else wants to speak up about this, show some basic respect to me, Peck, or anyone else beyond a crappy, smartass attitude, and bring real facts to the table, other than "I just know because that's what I was told by can't-tell-you" and garbage slogan-esque answers.

Strong and bitter words are always indication of a weak cause. The insults are unnecessary and out of line.

Facts are facts and Brad has been hobbled by injuries after the all-star break these past two seasons since he left the team. That's irrefutable. Moreover, your comparison to Bender is silly and misguided. By your logic, since Bender, Donnie should continue to award injury-prone players lucrative contracts. As if he should just ignore his mistakes to please you and other emotionally-charged fans. And yes, as far as I'm concerned, Bender was a mistake, so don't paint me as someone who blindly buys into a party line.

Spoon-fed opinions? I'm gonna let that one go because it's too easy and I don't care to respond to your insults with insults. Let's just say I am one of the most original thinkers you could ever hope to know.

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

As time has passed, the one side of the argument becomes more and more about the statistics that Brad has achieved since he left the team. And again those stats cannot be denied.

But turning back the clock to before the trade, and without the benefit of hindsight, we must recall that the Pacers experienced a money issue. Brad's performance during the season, with or without injury, earned him more dollars in a new contract than Walsh was expecting to pay.

Walsh weighed the salary that he was going to have to pay against what Brad had delivered and judged that the bang wasn't worth the buck.

Clearly, Walsh was wrong. But the most important point that Walsh was wrong on was his miscalculation of just how important a center's mid-range shot is to the overall success of our offense. Even before Artest's suspension we were struggling due to the fact that we didn't have a player to play alongside of Jermaine that could hit the mid-range jumper. And I agree with others who have said that it probably cost us a championship.

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

Clearly, Walsh was wrong. But the most important point that Walsh was wrong on was his miscalculation of just how important a center's mid-range shot is to the overall success of our offense. Even before Artest's suspension we were struggling due to the fact that we didn't have a player to play alongside of Jermaine that could hit the mid-range jumper. And I agree with others who have said that it probably cost us a championship.

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

The argument is weak. He hasn't "led" a team past the first-round? When was he expected to lead? Never. And here's a little news bulletin for you: The Kings went 7 games into the 2nd round last year. Brad played in every game of it.

But you wouldn't even know that, yet you continue to pretend you're some expert. Donnie keeps Brad, and you'd be throwing out your "look at me, I'm smarter than you" routine with those that wanted him out. Your opinion is just regurgitation of what your sources tell you.

In fact, let's take a closer look at what you obviously know about, but for the others who are watching, I'll inform them.

Game 5, 0 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 block, and 1 steal. There it is!! This is the evidence that negates everything because he didn't score! Sure, the rest of his stats are still solid as all hell for a center, but don't tell anyone OK?! Just let him go quietly into the night.

Game 6, 17 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals. I'd have a case if he was healthy after the all-st-- oops.

I'll tell you what. I'll throw you a bone here. This season, he wasn't so nice in the playoffs.

At first.

Not playing for 6 weeks does that to people. And yes, it's his freak injury as to why he was out. But here's the part no one in your camp wants to talk about. He got better.

Hell, upon further review, even his first game in the series (Game 1), he wasn't awful in the time he played. 8 minutes (read: not a lot of time) he still managed 7 points, 4 rebounds, and 3 assists. 8 minutes. Jeff would have about 2 and 5 and 0 in about that amount of time if he was having a good night.

Game 2? Blah numbers. 6 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist in 17 minutes.

Game 3? 14 points, 3 rebounds, and 1 block. Not good enough, but showing signs of what was to follow:

Game 5: 14 points, 6 rebounds, 11 assists. Back to being that money-pit, never plays past Feb. player.

Clearly getting back up to speed before his team lost. Not surprising; a 7 seed losing to a 2. If you expected Brad to be their best player and "lead them" on further, blame whatever idiot thought Brad should be the best player on the team, no him. Brad should be the 3rd best player. As he was and would still be here behind Jermaine and Artest.

This "argument" pisses me off. And when I see people making these idiodic comments based on un-informed, half-truth, throw-away statements, they will hear from me.

You have your cheap one-liners, and your spoon-fed opinion. I have facts, and something resembling real basketball knowledge. So the next time you or anyone else wants to speak up about this, show some basic respect to me, Peck, or anyone else beyond a crappy, smartass attitude, and bring real facts to the table, other than "I just know because that's what I was told by can't-tell-you" and garbage slogan-esque answers.

*

(Let it be stated for the record that I am a big Jeff Foster fan, but he leaves himself open to this comparison being what he is: A great bench C/F and nothing more)

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

Ok, since I need something to do I want to add this little comment & a request for anybody who has the time or knowledg how to do this.

First the statement.

Brad Miller's injury status was never even brought up by anyone, even the great Bulletproof, until he appeared in his second all-star game. Before that it was all about Brad not being worth the money because he really wasn't that good of a center, he just happened to be a decent center in an incredably weak E.C.

That discussion all ended the min. Brad was selected to the All-star team in the W.C.

I vividly remember making a post to B.P. back then, & I'm sure Bball remembers this because he jumped on it at the time, about you guys always moving the field goal on us when it came to Brad.

Pssssttttt..... Here's a seceret that you guys might want to hear as well. One of the original reasons that were being handed out around here by those who supported the trade was that we did it so Al Harrington could blossom.

Once that didn't work out that became a dead issue to them as well.

****Additional statement****

This is to Harmonica, yes I am always going to bring up Brad Miller. I gave it a rest for the end of the season because Dale was home, but as I said after the last game I have returned to the true path of darkness. I feel, have felt & will always feel that trading away Brad Miller was a collosal mistake. I said it then & I'll say it now.

****End of additional statement****

Alabama Redneck & others who don't like to compare, you will want to skip this next statement.

Jamaal Tinsely, Jermaine O'Neal & Jon Bender are all injury prone as well. Not a one of them has played a complete season since Brad has been traded & yet Donnie gave each of them contract extensions.

If you would just say that Brad wasn't worth the money because of his play instead of trying to find some other form of justification we could probably let this go. But then the facts wouldn't bare that out would they? Because on the court he is worth the money he got.

Ok, comparison over.

Here we are three years later & we are looking for a new starting center. Even Fosters biggest fans on here last year were saying they thought that Harrison would be starting by sometime this season, but that was before had injury problems as well.

But the fact that we are looking for a new center pretty much tells me that this trade was a flop.

Some of us, well ok at least one of us, beleive that a frontcourt of Brad & J.O. would have been able to take the Wallaces.

Now the request. Whoever knows how can you please go back & pull up the post I made about moving the field goal. If I'm not mistaken there is something else very very important in that thread.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

Maybe we should've 'promoted' our trainer a few years ago and seen how our injuries and conditioning worked out after that 'promotion'?

On of the points to the Brad Miller argument that I still don't get, and Beast23 brought it up, was that Brad ended up with a higher market value than Donnie expected him to be at. That may be true, but exactly how much had Donnie penciled in to offer Brad because A: I'm not sure where the money was coming from (once the other moves (Bender and other extensions offered) and then the Reggie and JO deals finalized)... and B: Did he have him penciled in at a pay cut?

I'm just unconvinced he had him penciled in at all and I wonder if his comment about 'signing all his free agents and letting the reporters figure out how' was actually along the lines of how it played out all along. IOW, a sign and trade salary dump with BMiller on his way out.

-Bball

Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

This proves the theory that you never know where threads are going. I figured this could not have been all about Doleac.

Do I wish we had Brad Miller instead of Croshere. Yes. Do I wish we had Brad Miller instead of Bender. Yes.

Do I think the Pacers would have beaten the Pistons in 2004 with Brad Miller. No way. The Pistons don't double team J.O anyways. brad would have helped the offense, but I don't like his defense, I'm sorry

There is a reason the Kings have the worst interior defense in the NBA.
I just don't miss Brad all that much.

Edit: One thing I'll never forget was J.O's reaction. I always thought those two got along great, and that they were a great combo offensively. J.O was interviewed during the Pacers summer league game a day or two after brad was traded. First I was surprised J.O agreed to be interviewed, I figured he was really pissed, Second I was afraid he was going to say something he might regret later. But he was in a good mood and seemed not to care that brad was gone

And in the two years since ,J.O has not said one word about missing Brad nor have we heard from "sources" that J.O is upset that Brad is gone

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

There is a reason the Kings have the worst interior defense in the NBA. I just don't miss Brad all that much.

I've never understood why this point is generally ignored.

I've never understood why it's always argued that we could've afforded Miller's salary now if, if, if ... to me, it was always more of a concern of affording the last couple years of the deal -- $11+ million. Anyone think that at the rate he's going, Brad's body might not hold up that long?

I've never understood all the emotional attachment to Brad Miller. Around Purdue, anyone that's ever interacted with the guy calls him a dick.

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

A few days ago I heard Larry Brown talk about the virtue in having quick, mobile and athletic big men. He really made a strong case. Saying that with the new rules and the way the game has changed over the past 5 years, you need athletic big guys. In fact if you've ever watched the Pistons play, I think it is rather obvious. Unless you have Shaq (who is pretty quick and athletic himself) you need quickness at the big positions.

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

A few days ago I heard Larry Brown talk about the virtue in having quick, mobile and athletic big men. He really made a strong case. Saying that with the new rules and the way the game has changed over the past 5 years, you need athletic big guys. In fact if you've ever watched the Pistons play, I think it is rather obvious. Unless you have Shaq (who is pretty quick and athletic himself) you need quickness at the big positions.

Brad just does not fit the bill

Whenever you talk about this you only use one side of the argument.

You have to have a combo of strength & speed to play the center spot. Whenever you mention this & then talk about the Pistons you always talk about what great speed they have but then never state that both Wallace's are extremly strong as well. Not to mention that Ben Wallace has very explosive leaping ability.

Speed without strength equals Mikki Moore. Is that your ideal of a center?

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: What do you guys think of this trade?

You know, we could make this argument for SO many players, that I don't even know why it is discussed.

I think Indiana has a real problem getting people to stay in games. Like you said, Jamaal and Jermaine have real troubles staying healthy, though for their credit, they do try to play through them. I don't even want to talk about Bender.

I didn't think Brad had a problem like that until he started missing time at the end of the year every year. And I honestly don't know if he would have helped against Detroit. Yes he would have opened up, but I think Rasheed/Ben would have scored so easily due to their pure athleticism advantage. So who knows?

Maybe we should just hold out our team and play them starting in January, so they can be healthy for the playoffs.

Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.