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... anyone shopping and playing instruments will realize that there are brands that offer far better value, but they're not Steinways.

Mr. Chandler,

Please explain what you mean by value? Is that based only on the cost of a new instrument?

Here is a direct comparison of two great builders, in the same size of 5'-7", both polished ebony, and based solely on the published MSRP and SMP. These are the only upper level builders who have a direct comparison. There are certainly other builders for comparison, but the sizes vary, so that becomes an apples to oranges comparison. I agree that some of those are better "cost value" and others are considerably more expensive.

Steinway & Sons - $65,700Steingraeber & Sohne - $93,382

Which holds the greater "value?" That is a decision which can only be made by an individual pianist based on personal preferences.

Individual dealers aside, the "official" websites of Steinway and Steingraeber make no reference, by name, to any other builder. That holds true for all of the great manufacturers. Do they all proclaim their product to be the finest? Of course they do. They all market their pianos to their own advantage.

I consider your statement to be another blanket swipe against Steinway as is evidenced so often in the Piano Forum.

... anyone shopping and playing instruments will realize that there are brands that offer far better value, but they're not Steinways.

Mr. Chandler,

Please explain what you mean by value? Is that based only on the cost of a new instrument?

Here is a direct comparison of two great builders, in the same size of 5'-7", both polished ebony, and based solely on the published MSRP and SMP. These are the only upper level builders who have a direct comparison. There are certainly other builders for comparison, but the sizes vary, so that becomes an apples to oranges comparison. I agree that some of those are better "cost value" and others are considerably more expensive.

Steinway & Sons - $65,700Steingraeber & Sohne - $93,382

Which holds the greater "value?" That is a decision which can only be made by an individual pianist based on personal preferences.

Individual dealers aside, the "official" websites of Steinway and Steingraeber make no reference, by name, to any other builder. That holds true for all of the great manufacturers. Do they all proclaim their product to be the finest? Of course they do. They all market their pianos to their own advantage.

I consider your statement to be another blanket swipe against Steinway as is evidenced so often in the Piano Forum.

Marty

The question really is, however - what is the actual selling price or "street" price of the pianos.

I have a good idea, and the differential is, shall we say, much smaller in actual fact than appears from the figures stated above.

And I can also tell you that, IMVHO - I would take the Steingraeber 100 times over a Steinway "M".

#1970391 - 10/08/1204:35 PMRe: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members?
[Re: Minnesota Marty]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

... anyone shopping and playing instruments will realize that there are brands that offer far better value, but they're not Steinways.

Mr. Chandler,

Please explain what you mean by value? Is that based only on the cost of a new instrument?

Here is a direct comparison of two great builders, in the same size of 5'-7", both polished ebony, and based solely on the published MSRP and SMP. These are the only upper level builders who have a direct comparison. There are certainly other builders for comparison, but the sizes vary, so that becomes an apples to oranges comparison. I agree that some of those are better "cost value" and others are considerably more expensive.

Steinway & Sons - $65,700Steingraeber & Sohne - $93,382

Which holds the greater "value?" That is a decision which can only be made by an individual pianist based on personal preferences.

Individual dealers aside, the "official" websites of Steinway and Steingraeber make no reference, by name, to any other builder. That holds true for all of the great manufacturers. Do they all proclaim their product to be the finest? Of course they do. They all market their pianos to their own advantage.

I consider your statement to be another blanket swipe against Steinway as is evidenced so often in the Piano Forum.

There must be tens of thousands of posts at PW where people have expressed their opinion about different pianos and one part of the equation that has been discussed many times is value. How was Chandler's post different from any of those others posts?

Isn't it obvious that "value", for at least 99% of those using that word, is always related to price? Doesn't virtually everyone take it to mean how much you get for what you pay?

Finally, it's easy to make other comparisons with a Steinway M and when the pianos are a different size it's no harder to compare their value. For example a Mason BB has an SMP slightly less than a Steinway M and an actual selling price around 20K than a Steinway M.

My local Steinway dealer did exactly what my local Yamaha dealer and my local Kawai dealer did.....that is, he made every attempt to trash-talk the competition, with both innuendo and mis-statement of fact. Indeed, that was the case with all but a handful of the dealers (I should say the salesperson representing the store at that time) that I encountered during a six month multi-city, multi-state search.

After a while I was actually glad when the trash talking started, because then I could tune out and move on to a different seller. Why anyone whould want to do business with such people is beyond me.

In the end I believe the market will reward the honest straight shooters, and people like the quoted dealer in the OP will get just what they deserve....no customers.

The results were predictable. More sniping at Steinway and the countering of information stated by me based on published information. Absolutely nothing I said was disparaging of any other manufacturer or made in any comparison other than cost.

My pianos hold more value to me than do other brands and the values are not based on cost analysis. Do I respect and enjoy playing the great instruments of other builders? I most certainly do. What I don't do is dismiss them out of hand.

Using MSRP and SMP to compare prices or values is a valid approach EXCEPT in the case of Steinway. As Larry points out, In most cases, discounts from the Suggested Maximum Price range from 10 to 30 percent... Important exception: Discounts on Steinway pianos generally range from 0 to 10 percent. http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall12/196.html

So the selling price of a Steinway pianos with the same SMP would be considerably higher. In fact, in the example Marty noted the two pianos might well sell at the same price.

But, as I pointed out, Steingraeber has an SMP exactly the same as the MSRP. Does not the same logic apply as in Steinway? The dealer here doesn't offer much in the way of discounts on the Steingraebers as they do on the other brands they carry.

I did forget to mention that they tend to close up shop every two or three years and then open up 6 months later somewhere else. They've been in like 5 different locations since I've started going there about 15 years ago. I've always found that a bit odd.

James - My understanding is that Sherman Clay chose not to renew their five year lease for the showroom at the corner of Scottsdale Road and Acoma partially because the space was too large (expensive), the recession was in full swing, and they were having problems keeping managers. A few months later a new manager took over who opened a smaller store nearby while the current location in the same strip mall could be secured and renovated. The current and two previous locations were affiliated with Sherman Clay. I could be wrong, but I believe the other Scottsdale Road location from 15 years ago wasn't connected to Sherman Clay. My point is the the "they" you refer to weren't the same people over the years - so there is really nothing "odd" about it.

Carey, you are probably right about all of this. I was wondering why they'd be doing that all of the time. Before they moved to their previous digs on Acoma they were in a shop on Chapparal (sp.), before that they were in a big round building somewhere in Phoenix, I don't remember where exactly. BTW, that big round building is where I got to play one of Horowitz's pianos for a few minutes. I don't recall if each time they were the same people or not. I'm still on their email list and have seen a few nice free concerts there at the shop. They also gave me a copy of "Note by Note: etc." on DVD. Like I said, they were nice people, just don't mention another brand in front of them.

I did forget to mention that they tend to close up shop every two or three years and then open up 6 months later somewhere else. They've been in like 5 different locations since I've started going there about 15 years ago. I've always found that a bit odd.

James - My understanding is that Sherman Clay chose not to renew their five year lease for the showroom at the corner of Scottsdale Road and Acoma partially because the space was too large (expensive), the recession was in full swing, and they were having problems keeping managers. A few months later a new manager took over who opened a smaller store nearby while the current location in the same strip mall could be secured and renovated. The current and two previous locations were affiliated with Sherman Clay. I could be wrong, but I believe the other Scottsdale Road location from 15 years ago wasn't connected to Sherman Clay. My point is the the "they" you refer to weren't the same people over the years - so there is really nothing "odd" about it.

Carey, you are probably right about all of this. I was wondering why they'd be doing that all of the time. Before they moved to their previous digs on Acoma they were in a shop on Chapparal (sp.), before that they were in a big round building somewhere in Phoenix, I don't remember where exactly. BTW, that big round building is where I got to play one of Horowitz's pianos for a few minutes. I don't recall if each time they were the same people or not. I'm still on their email list and have seen a few nice free concerts there at the shop. They also gave me a copy of "Note by Note: etc." on DVD. Like I said, they were nice people, just don't mention another brand in front of them.

To the OP: I, sir, consider my own opinion to be paramount and above question from anyone.

Steve- I think you're right about Steinway SMP. To me, it seems they one of the only companies with that strong a brand recognition/perceived value that could get away with what you have described. I think of this like Ferrari or Lamborghini-- might not be the absolute best cars on the road, but the perceived brand value and recognition is high enough and their production limited enough that they do not need to discount their products in order to sell out the line.

"Steinway bashing" -- I think it should be important to distinguish objective discussions from subjective bashing. What some may consider the "bashing" of the Steinway brand may simply be an honest opinion about the state of their company/brand. I, for one, believe they make one of the greatest pianos on the market, but I am not blinded to the idea of being critical about their product or their company.

_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Isn't odd how some items have name value..Steinway,Rolex,Rolls Royce,..yet items that havetrue monetary worth, gold ,silver, diamonds, are not helped by a "brand name"pianos, watches, cars, only have a "percieved value"...

... anyone shopping and playing instruments will realize that there are brands that offer far better value, but they're not Steinways.

Mr. Chandler,

Please explain what you mean by value? Is that based only on the cost of a new instrument?

Here is a direct comparison of two great builders, in the same size of 5'-7", both polished ebony, and based solely on the published MSRP and SMP. These are the only upper level builders who have a direct comparison. There are certainly other builders for comparison, but the sizes vary, so that becomes an apples to oranges comparison. I agree that some of those are better "cost value" and others are considerably more expensive.

Steinway & Sons - $65,700Steingraeber & Sohne - $93,382

Which holds the greater "value?" That is a decision which can only be made by an individual pianist based on personal preferences.

Individual dealers aside, the "official" websites of Steinway and Steingraeber make no reference, by name, to any other builder. That holds true for all of the great manufacturers. Do they all proclaim their product to be the finest? Of course they do. They all market their pianos to their own advantage.

I consider your statement to be another blanket swipe against Steinway as is evidenced so often in the Piano Forum.

Marty,

I was referring to the fact that when I bought my Estonia 190 I paid about $25K (5-6 years ago). I saw prices for a Steinway M of over $50K yet I considered the Estonia the better piano. For me the Estonia was a far better value.

My only mistake was projecting my personal experience as the experience of any decent pianist when shopping instruments. Based on what I've read on this forum since I joined more than a decade ago I don't feel that was unreasonable. I've played some wonderful Steinway pianos, but none of them was what I'd consider a bargain.

I was referring to the fact that when I bought my Estonia 190 I paid about $25K (5-6 years ago). I saw prices for a Steinway M of over $50K yet I considered the Estonia the better piano. For me the Estonia was a far better value.

The $50K for the Steinway M breaks down as follows:

-- $25K for a good, well built little piano-- $25K for the name on the fallboard

Steinways are wonderful pianos. I always enjoy trying them out at the store. But when I see a price tag of $54K and higher for a brand new S - and remember that the price keeps going up every year - I simply shake my head is disbelief.

#1971604 - 10/10/1211:25 PMRe: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members?
[Re: Steve Cohen]

Ori
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1706
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen

I need to jump in here, speaking as a representative of Piano Buyer.

Using MSRP and SMP to compare prices or values is a valid approach EXCEPT in the case of Steinway. As Larry points out, In most cases, discounts from the Suggested Maximum Price range from 10 to 30 percent... Important exception: Discounts on Steinway pianos generally range from 0 to 10 percent. http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall12/196.html

So the selling price of a Steinway pianos with the same SMP would be considerably higher. In fact, in the example Marty noted the two pianos might well sell at the same price.

Steve,

First, forgive me for pointing out, but in spite of your statement above I doubt that you are 'speaking here as a representative of piano buyer'.

You may have done a good job in the advertizing department, but I'm sure that Larry Fine has a way of separating the advertizing department from the content...and here, my friend, we definitely deal with content.

Second, and the reason I decided to chime in here, is because somehow you seem to turn selling at higher than normal margins into a virtue.

Since the SMP is largely based on wholesale cost, if between two pianos of similar SMP one is offered at a 20% discount while the other at only 5% discount... it means that the latter is simply sold at a higher margin.

If one gets from the selling dealer a substantially better service, piano preparation or special care I can understand that it may be reflected in the price.

However, I don't think that there is an advantage to the service and preparation offered by Steinway dealers over many other quality dealers that are able to operate average industry margins.

And finally, if you decide to discount by only 5% at your dealership...you may find that your sales too can drop by 60% over a few short years!

Just something to think about.

_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

#1972272 - 10/12/1211:41 AMRe: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members?
[Re: Ori]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Ori

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen

I need to jump in here, speaking as a representative of Piano Buyer.

Using MSRP and SMP to compare prices or values is a valid approach EXCEPT in the case of Steinway. As Larry points out, In most cases, discounts from the Suggested Maximum Price range from 10 to 30 percent... Important exception: Discounts on Steinway pianos generally range from 0 to 10 percent. http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall12/196.html

So the selling price of a Steinway pianos with the same SMP would be considerably higher. In fact, in the example Marty noted the two pianos might well sell at the same price.

Second, and the reason I decided to chime in here, is because somehow you seem to turn selling at higher than normal margins into a virtue.

It seems to me all Steve did was explain that when using the SMP one should only expect a 0-10% discount for a Steinway compared to a larger discount from other makers. I see absolutely nothing in his statement that says this is good, bad , or anything in between.

He was explaining why the Steinway vs. Steingraeber actual selling prices could be far different from what one would expect if one incorrectly assumed that the typical selling prices would involve the same discount form SMP. In fact, as a Steingraeber dealer, I would have expected that his explanation would be welcomed by you because some readers of the PB don't read it's explanation of SMP very carefully and would wrongly assume that the selling price of the Steingraeber model mentioned, because of its higher SMP, would be much higher than the Steinway.

1st, Larry has authorized me to represent him and Piano Buyer contentually on Piano World and has posted that here many times.

That said, I agree with the points you make. I do not think that selling at a higher margin in a virtue. I also don't think that there is an advantage to the service and preparation offered by Steinway dealers over many other quality dealers that are able to operate average industry margins.

I would even go so far as to use you and others in the NYC market as examples... I have seen the way many NYC dealers prepare, and market their lines and find a consistently high-quality prep, and reasonable margins within your market.

I am not sure how honest Steinway is about the prices on their pianos, from the discounting perspective anyway. Where I am, the Steinway dealership regularly puts on sale the piano that never goes on sale. I agree that the discount is not at the same percentage as many other brands, but the idea that Steinways are not discounted and never go on sale is not in my opinion in accord with the facts.

This is not important, however, at least in my view. What is important is what piano one loves and whether one can afford it. All the discounting in the world would not have persuaded me to buy a piano I did not love, nor would all the chatter about investment value or anything else have convinced me to hand over the money for a piano unless it called out to me as a piano first and foremost.

So, if someone came in and offered to buy a Steingraeber for the SMP the dealer would refuse the offer?

With Steingraeber, like Steinway, the SMP = MSRP. So, unless there is a waiting list for a particular model, they would take the offer. At the dealership here, the actual selling price is not lowered by as large of a percentage as there would be on other brands. From discussions with other high end sellers, this seems to be the case with all of the very upper level, "elite name," instruments.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur

I am not sure how honest Steinway is about the prices on their pianos, from the discounting perspective anyway. Where I am, the Steinway dealership regularly puts on sale the piano that never goes on sale. I agree that the discount is not at the same percentage as many other brands, but the idea that Steinways are not discounted and never go on sale is not in my opinion in accord with the facts.

What is important is what piano one loves and whether one can afford it. All the discounting in the world would not have persuaded me to buy a piano I did not love, nor would all the chatter about investment value or anything else have convinced me to hand over the money for a piano unless it called out to me as a piano first and foremost.

#1972786 - 10/13/1202:28 PMRe: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members?
[Re: Plowboy]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Plowboy

So, the fact that Steinway is honest about their prices is a negative?

Not sure what you mean here.

If you mean there is less or no bargaining room, I don't think that necessarily implies honesty. It just means that customers at Steinway can't expect bargaining to get them a far as for dealers of other makes. If you mean that Steinway doesn't give inflated MSRP then I would agree with you, although the Piano Buyer/Piano Book has been around for so long that many people probably realize by now that MSRP is irrelevant. If Steinway was being very upfront about their prices, they might say that they have a bigger markup from dealer cost than most other makes.