etinin wrote:According to the Madhyamika, it is possible to achieve liberation without buddhism. Pratyekabuddhas actually manage it in a kalpa where no buddha has been born. They are not full buddhas, though, as they do have relatively limited compassion and are not omniscient.

The only requirement is that they hear the teachings of a buddha in one life. Since there will be no buddha in the kalpa he is reborn, he will not be a buddhist and will not be capable of spreading the dharma after reaching enlightenment. Even in a good kalpa like ours, I believe it's quite safe to assume that everyone has been a buddhist in one life or another, since we all have been in samsara for countless eons.

--Karma Rigpe Wangchuk

"Meditation brings wisdom. Lack of meditation leaves ignorance. Know well what leads you forward and what holds you back."Shakyamuni

etinin wrote:The only requirement is that they hear the teachings of a buddha in one life. Since there will be no buddha in the kalpa he is reborn, he will not be a buddhist

to the extent that bodhicitta generated with the hearing is thrown and received consistently, shaped by a buddhist view, that sattva is a buddhist sattva

I believe it's quite safe to assume that everyone has been a buddhist in one life or another, since we all have been in samsara for countless eons.

accumulating positive and negative and neutral actions is not activity requiring development of a buddhist view, whether successful or unsuccessfuland, if bodhicitta is crushed and a buddhist view abandoned, that sattva can no longer be considered buddhist with any relevancy

also, quantity never necessarily translates into qualityexposure to a buddha's dharma does not necessarily translate into a buddhist viewgautama did not even convert every person in the indus valley kingdoms

there are a number of entirely incorrigible sattvasto the point that bodhisattvas have appeared within naraka-lokas intentionally for their sake

Yudron wrote:You know, I've found the Tibetan lamas don't care at all about the western lamas we all criticize. The stories they know about some other Asian lamas are so much worse, they make our guys look like no big deal at all.

I would not touch the Aro in any way, but this is my finding as well... Tibetan Lamas DONT CARE about Aro one way or the other, like me they "just in case" stay away.

As for this man 'Antonio Terrone' he and his wife are GREAT scholars, and true benefactors of our precious Ngagyur Nyingma. Both their Thesis should be read by all Nyingma practitioners and Sarah's by all women and Dudjom practitioners!!!

Bj Lhundrup wrote:As for this man 'Antonio Terrone' he and his wife are GREAT scholars, and true benefactors of our precious Ngagyur Nyingma. Both their Thesis should be read by all Nyingma practitioners and Sarah's by all women and Dudjom practitioners!!!

Bj Lhundrup wrote:As for this man 'Antonio Terrone' he and his wife are GREAT scholars, and true benefactors of our precious Ngagyur Nyingma. Both their Thesis should be read by all Nyingma practitioners and Sarah's by all women and Dudjom practitioners!!!

etinin wrote:The only requirement is that they hear the teachings of a buddha in one life. Since there will be no buddha in the kalpa he is reborn, he will not be a buddhist

to the extent that bodhicitta generated with the hearing is thrown and received consistently, shaped by a buddhist view, that sattva is a buddhist sattva

I believe it's quite safe to assume that everyone has been a buddhist in one life or another, since we all have been in samsara for countless eons.

accumulating positive and negative and neutral actions is not activity requiring development of a buddhist view, whether successful or unsuccessfuland, if bodhicitta is crushed and a buddhist view abandoned, that sattva can no longer be considered buddhist with any relevancy

also, quantity never necessarily translates into qualityexposure to a buddha's dharma does not necessarily translate into a buddhist viewgautama did not even convert every person in the indus valley kingdoms

there are a number of entirely incorrigible sattvasto the point that bodhisattvas have appeared within naraka-lokas intentionally for their sake

let us play this game of categories with care

Careful with the definition of bodhisattvas. In the Vajrayana view, they are already realized beings who are irreversibly on the path to buddhahood.

Still, according to your view, if you can accumulate good merit without being a buddhist, you can eventually reach buddhahood "by chance", even if very unlikely. Also, depends on the vision of what being a buddhist is.

--Karma Rigpe Wangchuk

"Meditation brings wisdom. Lack of meditation leaves ignorance. Know well what leads you forward and what holds you back."Shakyamuni

Bj Lhundrup wrote:As for this man 'Antonio Terrone' he and his wife are GREAT scholars, and true benefactors of our precious Ngagyur Nyingma. Both their Thesis should be read by all Nyingma practitioners and Sarah's by all women and Dudjom practitioners!!!

etinin wrote:Still, according to your view, if you can accumulate good merit without being a buddhist, you can eventually reach buddhahood "by chance", even if very unlikely.

This does not follow. Buddhahood requires two things: accumulation of merit and accumulation of wisdom. Mundane merit only ever betters one's station in samsara. Merit connected with the bodhicitta intention to benefit all beings is much more profound and vast. But still, for it to lead more directly to liberation from samsara, even this merit must be joined with the view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness.

And without hearing, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness (or, alternatively, being directly introduced to the nature of one's mind), the wisdom accumulation and its attendant purification of obscurations cannot occur. As a result, there can be no realization, much less buddhahood.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...for it to lead more directly to liberation from samsara, even this merit must be joined with the view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness. And without hearing, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness (or, alternatively, being directly introduced to the nature of one's mind), the wisdom accumulation and its attendant purification of obscurations cannot occur. As a result, there can be no realization, much less buddhahood.

Some of the greatest masters have been completely illiterate and wouldn't have the faintest idea what you are talking about...

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...for it to lead more directly to liberation from samsara, even this merit must be joined with the view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness. And without hearing, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness (or, alternatively, being directly introduced to the nature of one's mind), the wisdom accumulation and its attendant purification of obscurations cannot occur. As a result, there can be no realization, much less buddhahood.

Some of the greatest masters have been completely illiterate and wouldn't have the faintest idea what you are talking about...

lol they wouldn't have any idea about which part: The cornerstone of Mahayana Buddhist practice that is hearing teachings about, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness? Or the cornerstone of our Nyingma tradition that is direct introduction to the nature of mind?

Also, I'm sure you're aware one cannot be a "great master" of Mahayana or Vajrayana if they have no realization of emptiness, so not sure what point you intended to be making.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...for it to lead more directly to liberation from samsara, even this merit must be joined with the view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness. And without hearing, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness (or, alternatively, being directly introduced to the nature of one's mind), the wisdom accumulation and its attendant purification of obscurations cannot occur. As a result, there can be no realization, much less buddhahood

lol they wouldn't have any idea about which part: The cornerstone of Mahayana Buddhist practice that is hearing teachings about, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness? Or the cornerstone of our Nyingma tradition that is direct introduction to the nature of mind?Also, I'm sure you're aware one cannot be a "great master" of Mahayana or Vajrayana if they have no realization of emptiness, so not sure what point you intended to be making.

You write that... 'it cannot be this way unless..' and 'it cannot be that way unless...' I'm told there have been enlightened trees in the past so your cast iron categories are not as certain as you imagine. As for those simple old Lamas, they wouldn't have a clue as to the meaning of'...view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness...' but they might say 'I like sit, look sky.'

So if I challenge one of your cosy compartments, I'm what...a heretic? You should read the story of Kongpo Ben and reflect on the fact that this simple farmer could converse openly with Jowo Rinpoche, without having even the remotest relationship with the kind of scholastic Buddhism that you have described.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...for it to lead more directly to liberation from samsara, even this merit must be joined with the view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness. And without hearing, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness (or, alternatively, being directly introduced to the nature of one's mind), the wisdom accumulation and its attendant purification of obscurations cannot occur. As a result, there can be no realization, much less buddhahood

lol they wouldn't have any idea about which part: The cornerstone of Mahayana Buddhist practice that is hearing teachings about, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness? Or the cornerstone of our Nyingma tradition that is direct introduction to the nature of mind?Also, I'm sure you're aware one cannot be a "great master" of Mahayana or Vajrayana if they have no realization of emptiness, so not sure what point you intended to be making.

You write that... 'it cannot be this way unless..' and 'it cannot be that way unless...' I'm told there have been enlightened trees in the past so your cast iron categories are not as certain as you imagine. As for those simple old Lamas, they wouldn't have a clue as to the meaning of'...view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness...' but they might say 'I like sit, look sky.'

You forget the Hinaya. It is wrong for any aspiring bodhisattva to undervalue the shravakas and their vehicle.

--Karma Rigpe Wangchuk

"Meditation brings wisdom. Lack of meditation leaves ignorance. Know well what leads you forward and what holds you back."Shakyamuni

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...for it to lead more directly to liberation from samsara, even this merit must be joined with the view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness. And without hearing, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness (or, alternatively, being directly introduced to the nature of one's mind), the wisdom accumulation and its attendant purification of obscurations cannot occur. As a result, there can be no realization, much less buddhahood

lol they wouldn't have any idea about which part: The cornerstone of Mahayana Buddhist practice that is hearing teachings about, contemplating, and meditating on emptiness? Or the cornerstone of our Nyingma tradition that is direct introduction to the nature of mind?Also, I'm sure you're aware one cannot be a "great master" of Mahayana or Vajrayana if they have no realization of emptiness, so not sure what point you intended to be making.

You write that... 'it cannot be this way unless..' and 'it cannot be that way unless...' I'm told there have been enlightened trees in the past so your cast iron categories are not as certain as you imagine. As for those simple old Lamas, they wouldn't have a clue as to the meaning of'...view of emptiness and the dedication of merit must be done within the view of emptiness...' but they might say 'I like sit, look sky.'

The view of Mahamudra or Dzogchen--as Pema Rigdzin alluded to above--can be introduced very concisely to illiterate people. With pure faith and devotion, it is said one can do this through Guru Yoga without the lama physically present. Unfortunately, the biggest issue for us these days is lack of faith and devotion, or even respect, for our lamas and lineage.

Without any of that it is not going to happen staring anywhere will have much benefit.

'Even if one is not able to practice all the details of the Eleven Yogas of Vajrayogini, one who knows how to really pray deeply to the goddess Tara will receive the same benefits.' H.E. Chogye Trichen Rinpoche.

So if I challenge one of your cosy compartments, I'm what...a heretic? You should read the story of Kongpo Ben and reflect on the fact that this simple farmer could converse openly with Jowo Rinpoche, without having even the remotest relationship with the kind of scholastic Buddhism that you have described.

I don't think the terms heresy and heretic really apply to Buddha Dharma since it's not a scenario where one has to adopt the dogma of a creator god or be damned; but it IS a scenario where the body, speech, and minds of sentient beings, and samsara as a whole, function a certain way, and not adjusting one's thoughts, speech, and actions to be in line with creating pleasant outcomes will lead to suffering.

So, no, I don't think you're a "heretic." I do doubt, however, the value of that story about Kongpo Ben when it comes to the context of instructing people just why we sentient beings and samsara came about, what samsara entails, and how to reverse the course of it all. Literally just sitting and looking at the sky or having visions of talking to Buddha statues certainly is not a path to liberation, or even better samsaric rebirth. Those things do not explain what to do, how to do it, or why. So, I believe stories like the two you've mentioned have value, but only in the right context, or with the right background knowledge. They're just anecdotes.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...just sitting and looking at the sky or having visions of talking to Buddha statues certainly is not a path to liberation, or even better samsaric rebirth.

'...There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' (Hamlet 1:5)

I'm willing to brush aside that you're involved just as much in philosophy with your position as I am with mine. The question is, though, would you mind explaining precisely how simply staring into the sky with no instruction, introduction, or concrete method--or talking to statues--can bring about realization, in and of itself? You must know how and why these approaches would work, since you clearly believe in them so strongly.

I am fully willing to stand corrected and admit my error if you can help me understand how the above methods could result in buddhahood despite a person having no knowledge of basics of the Buddha's teachings and therefore no effort to accumulate merit and purify obscurations/enter into knowledge of their true condition (i.e. Dzogchen/Mahamudra).