IIRC the white box was a collectors thing. After the special 300 and after the current stock sells out there won't be any more. That said, I agree that you really can't simplify the SIEGE part any more than it is but, with racial classes and with the few classes included this will be the C&C version of BECMI.

Of course I am going by memory on this but I think that was what TLG has intended for Basic. With that we're looking at a seprate game from the core C&C. Look at basic as the version of C&C that could be sold in regular stores while regular C&C would be the 'gamer' version.

I see basic as being a game for Casual and inexperienced role-players where as regular would be the game for the serious crowd.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

But because of that, I'm assuming we'll get more out of C&CB since if it where otherwise, they could just simply tweak and republish the white box so I think its a fair bet to say they aren't going that route.

I like the idea of a basic set with a subset of the C&C rules / options (only go to a certain level, then use a few adjuncts for any more 'advancement' past core level, that would be quite interesting to me... (And yes, I know I hit upon at least a couple of hot button items with that comment, but it really would be of interest to me...)

And I'd say drop Knight & Monk, and add Ranger as a class, and drop 1/2 Elf as a race (relative to condensed.) Applicable subset of M&T as part of the boxed set. Of course, everyone will have their own ideas of what is 'core'. (and gotta include a Dragon -- iconic, and new players need to learnt that there are times that one just has got to RUN.)

Enough to run games for a while, yet more limited to keep page counts ($$$) down, can sell shared complementary products (low level modules, Towers of Adventure, Arms & Armor, Engineering Dungeons...), and upsell opportunities to the 'more complete' line (can use part of all of PH, M&T, CKG with their existing game; their choice.)

I also plan on getting oen for my daughter -- she tends to like things that are 'hers'.

DangerDwarf wrote:
That is an extremely valid point. Especially when on considers that it has been said that this is on the back burner until AFTER the CKG is out.

So, what comes after never?

And that publisher has at least one contributor that's ready to write for BC&C!
As far as the nature of the beast, I seem to recall Steve saying a while back that the Basic Game was not planned to be a "C&C Lite" but a game for children to learn the game.

bighara wrote:
As far as the nature of the beast, I seem to recall Steve saying a while back that the Basic Game was not planned to be a "C&C Lite" but a game for children to learn the game.

That's kind of what I was getting at, and I thnk that's where DD and I were crossing our wires. I'd like to see something aimed at kids or total gaming neophytes. I think that would go over well, in my opinion.
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The game may be geared for younger players, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Remember the advertisments for D&D back in the day? Well a majority of them featured children playing the game but in fact most of the players were college age and older. C&C can be geared towards whomever, but the game will but what you make of it.

I plan on running some basic C&C for sure. IT can;t be any more complicated then C&C White Box...
-O
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Yeah, BECMI was geared for kids in the marketing department. I got most of my sets and modules at Toys R Us and other toy stores. Was a game only kids used though? It was just a D&D variant for all intents and purposes.

That's the route I'm hoping TLG goes with C&CB. If it was just a matter of dropping some races and classes they could have simply shot it out the door already since they did the work with the white box and C&C condensed.

I'm dieing to see what they do with it and really chomping at the bit for this product. If it truly is a variant along the lines of D&D / AD&D, as opposed to simply C&C Condensed, I just might have a new gaming love.

Because take a good look at BECMI D&D, it is far more then just a :simpler" version of AD&D. It is a system of it's own with its own nuances, feel and subsystems that give it a distinctive flavor of its own. In many ways it is just as complex as AD&D.

DD -- some interesting thoughts, and the more I think about it, the more it is intriguing to have some differences.... Any thoughts on what you'd like to see, or just "interested in what the TL folks come up with"?

Depends on what they do with the line. Personally I'd love to see it turn into 2-3 box sets. First one lays the foundation then the others add too it.

The main set I'd expect to see simplified weapons and armor lists, with weapons falling into more basic categories and more centralized dice for damage. Sure the realist in me would grumble, but in actual play the less varied weapons and weapon damage work quite well. The racial classes are required too, though I'm fairly certain they already said such would be the case.

What should follow ups add?

Followers. Throw some rules in for the core C&CB classes gaining followers, a little chapter on stronghold building, running a domain and hirelings. Each set adding nuances to the game that the newcomers to RPG's wouldn't have thought about. Introduce them in little steps.

Throw in some mass combat rules to the 3rd set, etc.

Give the game its own identity but I don't think it would hurt sales because truth be told, most of the modules, etc would still be handy for your regular C&C players.

Well, it is a variant, the rules aren't going to be any 'lighter' per say. Cause, folks are right, its kinda hard to make this game any simpler.

But the language of the explanatory text, and the emphasis on the art style can be geared toward a different (younger) audience. Plus, fewer classes. The basic 4 plus a couple or three of race classes.
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DangerDwarf wrote:
Depends on what they do with the line. Personally I'd love to see it turn into 2-3 box sets. First one lays the foundation then the others add too it.

The main set I'd expect to see simplified weapons and armor lists, with weapons falling into more basic categories and more centralized dice for damage. Sure the realist in me would grumble, but in actual play the less varied weapons and weapon damage work quite well. The racial classes are required too, though I'm fairly certain they already said such would be the case.

What should follow ups add?

Followers. Throw some rules in for the core C&CB classes gaining followers, a little chapter on stronghold building, running a domain and hirelings. Each set adding nuances to the game that the newcomers to RPG's wouldn't have thought about. Introduce them in little steps.

Throw in some mass combat rules to the 3rd set, etc.

Give the game its own identity but I don't think it would hurt sales because truth be told, most of the modules, etc would still be handy for your regular C&C players.

+1 especially the simpler weapons and armor.
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I know the idea probably wouldn't be too popular for more "hardened" gamers, but for the purposes of C&CB I think it'd be worth a try on reducing the Prime system to a simple Physical / Mental much like you find with critters in C&C. Easy for the kiddos and uber archetypal. Fighters are physical, wizards are mental, etc.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, it is a variant, the rules aren't going to be any 'lighter' per say. Cause, folks are right, its kinda hard to make this game any simpler.

But the language of the explanatory text, and the emphasis on the art style can be geared toward a different (younger) audience. Plus, fewer classes. The basic 4 plus a couple or three of race classes.

Hey thanks, Peter! That's the most insightful information on this product we've heard in over a year.
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The monsters are also going to get a rewrite, as I understand it, to remove or reduce "clutter" -- not the rules for them, but possibly simplifying things like eliminating the three types of vision and whatnot. I am not involved, so I can't say for certain what's happening with it, but that's what I have vaguely guessed at, after some talks with Steve.
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Exactly, fin. I want to introduce my boy to the game (as I've said before). I'd much rather introduce him to gaming under C&C rules rather than under the venerable Mentzer Red Box. There's really no other option, in my humble opinion, and I'd rather go for the one in print...it it exists.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

CKG is for C&C players. C&C Basic is for players who would otherwise play Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry. Every day you lose potential C&C players to OSR games. Why is CKG more important than growing your consumer base? Where's C&C Basic?

RabidLurker wrote:
CKG is for C&C players. C&C Basic is for players who would otherwise play Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry. Every day you lose potential C&C players to OSR games. Why is CKG more important than growing your consumer base? Where's C&C Basic?

Its in progress. As for the consumer base, tis growing rather rapidly, orders of magnitude more rapidly than the mythical OSR. The CKG is nearly done, and it will certainly do a lot to grow a certain amount of the base. Once it's done, all these other projects will move rapidly forward.

C&C basic is aimed at young folks though, so it needs a bit of a different approach.
Course, it should be noted that these projects are being put out in order of their creation. The developmental process and planning of the CKG came before C&C basic.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

RabidLurker wrote:
CKG is for C&C players. C&C Basic is for players who would otherwise play Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry. Every day you lose potential C&C players to OSR games. Why is CKG more important than growing your consumer base? Where's C&C Basic?

I find this a curious analogy, which I typically don't deign to reply to. However as it comes up often enough, and most generally comes up as a question posed by someone with 2-5 posts to their name I'll try to be as polite as possible and give you an honest if somewhat long answer.

As I understand it LL and S&W exist as a straight out clone (including cruder than necessary artwork) of AD&D, of which there are Kazillions of original copies in quite good condition still floatng around. Their clone status is designed to allow authors of AD&D compatible adventures to make dozens and possibly hundreds of dollars via vanity printing their adventures to then share with their unique and ubiquitous clique without getting sued or having to share any of those dozens of dollars in profits with WOTC. Ethically this is somewhat grey but as free clones they serve their purpose in allowing "fresh" rpg material to come out for use with the classic game. Who's kidding who right? "Wink wink nudge nudge". I mean we all know that those products are really supposed to support classic AD&D and D&D basic anyways. We can't actually pretend they serve any other actual purpose can we?

The thing with C&C was it probably started out with the intent of being exactly that sort of clone except the Trolls screwed around and ended up creating a game. Problem was it wasn't the SAME GAME! It was a DIFFERENT game! Some folks are still pissed about that I suppose. It wasn't what they felt they were promised and they haven't been able to let it go which is kinda sad.

I say honestly, If AD&D is your game, its your game and I for one don't begrudge anyone for sticking to what they enjoy. I wouldn't say anyone is losing revenue to folks that cleave true to their favored classic system and quite respect them for being satisfied with their classic game. Truth be told folks who like their classic games either run stuff they've spent the last 30 years designing for their homebrew, convert newer stuff to classic gaming, or whatever.

Its like seeing people who insist on driving a 1982 pontiac firebird even though it only gets 12 miles to the gallon and costs them out the rear in breaks, suspension and tires on a year to year basis. The firebird is their car and thats wha they drive. You can't haul lumber from the lumber yard. You can't fit a babyseat in it and its practically impossible to make love in it but its your car and you'll make sure it continues to run forever!

C&C is C&C. It has grown its own fanbase. A fanbase that is certainly not being drained away in a manner you suggest. Print runs for core rulebooks have sold out steadily about every 14 months since their release. Games that continue to sell out their core rulebooks and require frequent reprints are deemed "A SUCCESS" by most margins in this industry, and most importantly to those folks who actually PLAY C&C instead of continuously sniping it for free advertising of their own AD&D clones. Core rulebooks are selling out and getting reprinted it seems IN SPITE of the existence of Free AD&D clones.

As for C&C basic. Don't know. Not my project. I find C&C pretty fun and pretty basic on its own. I can see a need for C&C basic in the sense that some people preferred D&D basic over AD&D. I never found AD&D that damned complicated either, thus never needed the "easy" version. Maybe the lack of a unifying mechanic i AD&D was a pain from time to time (when to roll percentile, when to roll d20's ect. ect.) but not unworkable.

From my own personal experience however the Basic version was sort of a moot point and was (to me) more or less a leader for rapidly adapting AD&D. How rapidly? Well I played blue box basic (red dragon and wizard cover) when I was 7-9 years old and had my own hardback AD&D books AS THEY CAME OUT in the subsequent years.

As to why the CKG and other books are important? Those questions have been answered repeatedly in a dozen other threads. Why has it taken so long? Dunno. Have you written a rule book from scratch or just copied one you liked and changed every 3rd word to avoid plaigerism charges? I don't say that to be inflamatory, I say it to prove a point. Writing rules is a complex and cerebral endeavor. It is a completely different kind of writing as compared to writing prose, or adventure writing and is more akin to writing a history book in calculus instead of english (or your native tongue).

Anyhow, this probably wasn't the fish you expected to catch, but its the one the bait attracted.

I will say there is some truth to what rabid lurker has said. Right now I am playing Swords and Wizardry, which is a clone of OD&D not AD&D, because it is a simpler and easier game for her to grasp. We have also begun playing Faery's Tale for the same reason.

I am not abandoning C&C but I have put it on hiatus for a bit. Had C&C basic been out by now I would not be making this post.
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Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06