If you look at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68159.html#msg68159, you will see in the penultimate paragraph that I mentioned 1.75% for the salt. If you then look at the following Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68165.html#msg68165, you will see that Terry Deane suggested that the salt value be increased to 2.5%. Since I considered Terry to be an expert on the NY style, as well as a professional specializing in that style, I deferred to his suggestion that the salt be increased to 2.5%. That value was reflected in the dough formulation I created for Mike (Essen1) in Reply 21 that you referenced. For myself, I would perhaps have gone back to 1.75% since I have been conscious for years about sodium levels in pizzas.

I found it interesting that what I proposed to you is pretty much in line with what I set forth in Replies 14 and 21 but for the salt level that I explained above with respect to Reply 21. I think that is because I tend to think in principles and then attach numbers to them once I know what the objectives are. It looks like the principles I applied over three years ago are the same as I applied to your case.

If you look at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68159.html#msg68159, you will see in the penultimate paragraph that I mentioned 1.75% for the salt. If you then look at the following Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68165.html#msg68165, you will see that Terry Deane suggested that the salt value be increased to 2.5%. Since I considered Terry to be an expert on the NY style, as well as a professional specializing in that style, I deferred to his suggestion that the salt be increased to 2.5%. That value was reflected in the dough formulation I created for Mike (Essen1) in Reply 21 that you referenced. For myself, I would perhaps have gone back to 1.75% since I have been conscious for years about sodium levels in pizzas.

I found it interesting that what I proposed to you is pretty much in line with what I set forth in Replies 14 and 21 but for the salt level that I explained above with respect to Reply 21. I think that is because I tend to think in principles and then attach numbers to them once I know what the objectives are. It looks like the principles I applied over three years ago are the same as I applied to your case.

Peter

Peter,

I missed that you preferred the salt at 1.75%. I find it interesting how different members prefer more or less salt in formulations and have found I like different amounts of salt according to the kind of pizza I am attempting. I wonder why that is. I think I can taste different salt levels, but with different formulations, sometimes I like more salt than other formulations for the final salt taste in the pizza crust. Just like my last experiment I did, I sure thought that 1.85% would give some salt taste in the final crust, but Steve, my taste testers and I thought their wasnít much there.

You have a great mind in remembering what you posted before and see you did apply the same principles for me.

The next attempt at the pre-1970 dough for a pizza was mixed this morning. I used 3% olive oil in the formulation, changed the Kosher salt to regular salt and kept everything else the same. The final dough temperature was 72.5 degrees F. I used the ďpoppy seedĒ trick again and after 8 hrs. of cold fermenting the dough ball looks like it is fermenting less than last week. I donít think there is any need to post the print out of the formulation. I changed the memory stick in my camera because I was having trouble with uploading pictures. The other memory stick seems to be working fine.

Must have been the new refridgerator last week that might have been too warm that caused the fast fermenting.

franko9752,

I am also thinking so far it was the new fridge wasnít turned down enough. I donít think the little lower final dough temperature this week had that much to do with the slower cold ferment. Will wait until tomorrow to see what happens.

The idea of this older style of NYC thin crust is interesting. I can't help but think of bands I have loved that made it big. Always thought they were better back in the day -- even if they weren't.

Anyway. Norma I agree with most of what Peter is suggesting though I would cut to the chase and use a flour around 12-13% protein (like KA AP or Heckers) that is unbromated and unbleached. Bromated flour just brings virtually nothing to the table and it is nice, IMO, to not have to even worry about it at all. Go with the straight dough as virtually no one can tell the difference (and even if they could does that make one better?). It is not a big deal. As Peter pointed out (and has been my experience as well) preferments have a lot do with scheduling and less that they are superior in every regard. If I want to make good pizza same day I use a preferment of some kind. If I have time, might as well let time and nature do the work for you and extend the ferment. I'd rather my pizza dough be under than overmixed.

I also think the idea of a older style of NYC thin crust is interesting, but really donít know of anyone that has really tasted one. I donít know if these experiments will show or not that the older style of NYC will be better or not.

Thanks for your tip about what kind of flours to try and also your experiences with using a preferment.

The second pre-1970ís pizza attempt was made today and it did turned out better in oven spring and overall better than last week, but it still wasnít near as good as the 1 day cold fermented Lehmann dough. The crust did have some more taste (I guess from the regular salt), but didnít have as good of flavor as the regular Lehman crusts. The bottom crust was also less crispy than last week.

Looks like the Lehmanns 1 day might work for you Norma. Nice pics btw.

franko9752,

So far the one day Lehmann dough is working okay for me. Steve and I tasted one slice from one of the pies today and thought the crust tasted like a longer fermented dough. Sure don't know why that is.

The formulation that I have been using for the last few weeks was modified from the link you posted. I lowered the oil amount to about 2.2% olive oil and also lowered the sugar amount. I donít have the print out of exactly what I have been using for the last few weeks because it is at market. If you want me to get the print out when I am go to market I can copy it and post it. This week I changed the flour to Kyrol flour just to see what would happen.

It won't be necessary to retrieve the printout of the Lehmann one-day dough. From what you have said, it does not appear that the dough you have been testing with the Occident flour is a lot different from the Lehmann one-day dough. Maybe it is the KASL or the Kyrol flour and/or the increased amount of salt (Kosher) that is giving you the flavor that you prefer. Both of those flours have more protein, and more protein means more taste (and color as well).

One thought that occurred to me, however, is to consider using some semolina flour. That is not something that the early NYC pizza makers might have used, based solely on what I have read, but I found that semolina flour is a nice addition to a dough. I discovered that when I was making clones of the Papa Gino's pizzas as sold in the Northeast part of the country. The idea came from a former Papa Gino's worker who said that she thought that Papa Gino's was using semolina as part of a flour blend (it later turned out that PG was using bleached and bromated Spring King Spring Patent flour, and no semolina). In my case, I used 15% semolina and 85% King Arthur bread flour. I described my results at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404. One of the nice side benefits of that blend is that the leftover PG clone slices reheated beautifully, as I so noted at Reply 92 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71635.html#msg71635.

Another possible change for you to consider, whether you decide to use semolina or not, or whether you decide to switch to the KASL or Kyrol or not, is to reduce the amount of yeast and let the dough rest for about an hour or so before refrigerating. That should give the dough more fermentation byproducts that contribute to crust flavor. Using a longer temper time, if that is doable, would have a similar effect.

Norma, my mouth is watering while looking at your pies. We ordered from a pizza place rated "best in the area" last night, and the pie was just plain bad - a dry, thick crust, and clumps of melted american cheese across the top - oh my poor belly! My entire family rated it poor. Keep baking those pies. We will be back! Mark