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The first Hall of Fame inductee to the APF was a Japanese powerlifter, who started pulling championships since the early or mid 1980s and for 18 almost successive years hence.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvN4_x1kMeQ

It sounds to me like most of you are using the term "lifting" sort of like talking about "vehicles", and then trying to validate/invalidate sweeping statements like "vehicles can't go more than 20 mph" "vehicles aren't good for traveling over water", etc.

I agree. There is a typical weight training program that involves high-weight / low-rep exercises and a diet high in protein that is the kind of thing you get on if you are sub-athletic and want to shape up, or as the beginning part of a larger PT cycle if you are an athlete.

The good points of high-weight, low-rep, high-protein is that it is actually kind of easy to do. You can quickly find the appropriate weight to lift, and you don't do many reps, so it is a short amount of time spent in the gym. You rip the crap out of your muscles, and then they use the protein you flood your system with to rebuild, so you bulk up and your metabolism starts running more efficiently.

The bad points are that your muscles are stiff and sore all of the time. They don't relax as easily. This is bad for just about any type of athletic activity other than powerlifting. Even bodybuilders only spend part of their training cycles doing this kind of regimen.

There are plenty of other types of resistance training though. You can do lower-weight / higher-rep exercises. You can work with kettleballs or indian clubs and do complex, circular exercises that are allegedly good for joint strength and flexibility. You could even do a high-weight / low rep program for three months or so and then transition to something that involves more stretching and lighter weight.

The first Hall of Fame inductee to the APF was a Japanese powerlifter, who started pulling championships since the early or mid 1980s and for 18 almost successive years hence.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvN4_x1kMeQ

Thanks for the link.
It fits with what I had heard - lifting weights became popular after the war. American influence perhaps. So O Sensei did not get his muscular body from lifting weights. It also fits with the story I heard about his powerlifting student. It happened in the early sixties.

I agree. There is a typical weight training program that involves high-weight / low-rep exercises and a diet high in protein that is the kind of thing you get on if you are sub-athletic and want to shape up, or as the beginning part of a larger PT cycle if you are an athlete.

The good points of high-weight, low-rep, high-protein is that it is actually kind of easy to do. You can quickly find the appropriate weight to lift, and you don't do many reps, so it is a short amount of time spent in the gym. You rip the crap out of your muscles, and then they use the protein you flood your system with to rebuild, so you bulk up and your metabolism starts running more efficiently.

The bad points are that your muscles are stiff and sore all of the time. They don't relax as easily. This is bad for just about any type of athletic activity other than powerlifting. Even bodybuilders only spend part of their training cycles doing this kind of regimen.

There are plenty of other types of resistance training though. You can do lower-weight / higher-rep exercises. You can work with kettleballs or indian clubs and do complex, circular exercises that are allegedly good for joint strength and flexibility. You could even do a high-weight / low rep program for three months or so and then transition to something that involves more stretching and lighter weight.

I used to teach Aikido to professional dancers. In classical ballet the men do some weight lifting mostly to strengthen their arms, it should make lifting the ballerina easier. But just as you already explained - they combine it with a lot of stretching and light movements.

Thanks for the link.
It fits with what I had heard - lifting weights became popular after the war. American influence perhaps. So O Sensei did not get his muscular body from lifting weights. It also fits with the story I heard about his powerlifting student. It happened in the early sixties.

Tom

Looking around, I found that the first All Japan Weightlifting competition was held in 1936, and the first all Japan Weightlifting Association was formed at that time - so weightlifting must have been around for some time prior to that if it had already spread around the country.

Plus, there are plenty of similar resistance style exercises that would produce similar results, even if not in western fornat.

As an aside, I seem to remember Yukiyoshi Sagawa, who was a contemporary of Ueshiba, as being a big weight lifter at one point in his life.

That is not the same though. That kind of work would continue for hours even all day. And that day after day. Different way of developing muscles, I would think.

Tom

There is a lot of lifting in farm work, though, and lifting is lifting. I garden for a living and am constantly lifting and hauling large sacks of fertilizer, barrels of compost, large shrubs and heavy equipment, loading and unloading the truck, pitching forksful of bark mulch into wheelbarrows, and other such work. I am quite muscular as a result. I also do a lot of tree/shrub pruning with saws that work on the pull stroke, and with bypass pruners that develop a vise-like grip. And, I split and toss firewood, which is a great workout!

Interestingly, I try to minimize the use of muscle in my work, relying a lot on frame and structure to do the real heavy lifting. Conventional muscle plays a role in the initial lift, but when I'm carrying heavy items, it's my frame that is bearing the load, not muscle, which is why I can work long days without tiring, even though I am in my mid-50s.

If I correctly recall some of Ueshiba's history, didn't he do some heavy-duty farming, perhaps even intentionally to add to his physical strength?

There is a lot of lifting in farm work, though, and lifting is lifting. I garden for a living and am constantly lifting and hauling large sacks of fertilizer, barrels of compost, large shrubs and heavy equipment, loading and unloading the truck, pitching forksful of bark mulch into wheelbarrows, and other such work. I am quite muscular as a result. I also do a lot of tree/shrub pruning with saws that work on the pull stroke, and with bypass pruners that develop a vise-like grip. And, I split and toss firewood, which is a great workout!

Interestingly, I try to minimize the use of muscle in my work, relying a lot on frame and structure to do the real heavy lifting. Conventional muscle plays a role in the initial lift, but when I'm carrying heavy items, it's my frame that is bearing the load, not muscle, which is why I can work long days without tiring, even though I am in my mid-50s.

If I correctly recall some of Ueshiba's history, didn't he do some heavy-duty farming, perhaps even intentionally to add to his physical strength?

Same kind of work as I do. Same age.
I try to minimize the use of muscle as well. Learned many different ways from my father about moving heavy objects without using muscle. Use a lot of what I have learned in Aikido and T'ai chi chuan to move things (or animals) without using muscle.

I imagine that O Sensei got quite muscular through his farming and his Budo training, and he may have even discovered or recognized some of these kind of ways of not using muscles by working on the land.

I do not see however how one could learn these things by just lifting weights - it seems like a rather one-sided training regime in contrast to the many different ways muscles are being used in farming..

On the other hand, I can see how some weight lifting exercises could help to overcome certain physical problems.

Looking around, I found that the first All Japan Weightlifting competition was held in 1936, and the first all Japan Weightlifting Association was formed at that time - so weightlifting must have been around for some time prior to that if it had already spread around the country.

Plus, there are plenty of similar resistance style exercises that would produce similar results, even if not in western fornat.

As an aside, I seem to remember Yukiyoshi Sagawa, who was a contemporary of Ueshiba, as being a big weight lifter at one point in his life.

Best,

Chris

Did the weightlifting have a important influence on his internal skills?

I do not see however how one could learn these things by just lifting weights - it seems like a rather one-sided training regime in contrast to the many different ways muscles are being used in farming..

On the other hand, I can see how some weight lifting exercises could help to overcome certain physical problems.

Tom

I agree... if one just lifts weights, one learns only how to lift weights. When we're doing physical labor of the different kinds described earlier, there are other factors involved, including changes in the terrain, shifting of weight/mass in the loads being carried, etc. We develop the proprioception needed to make the necessary changes in our bodies to accommodate the changes in the environment around us and in the nature of the different work we are doing.

Weight lifting has the specific purpose of building muscular strength and bulk, and increasing bone density. It's not a secret that even very elderly people can benefit significantly from an appropriate level of weight training.

I agree... if one just lifts weights, one learns only how to lift weights. When we're doing physical labor of the different kinds described earlier, there are other factors involved, including changes in the terrain, shifting of weight/mass in the loads being carried, etc. We develop the proprioception needed to make the necessary changes in our bodies to accommodate the changes in the environment around us and in the nature of the different work we are doing.

Weight lifting has the specific purpose of building muscular strength and bulk, and increasing bone density. It's not a secret that even very elderly people can benefit significantly from an appropriate level of weight training.

would cow and pig considered as macrobiotic, since they are large life form? plus, cow is known to be a vegetarian life form. would eating beef, T-bone or ribeye, consider as macrobiotic vegetarian diet?

I agree... if one just lifts weights, one learns only how to lift weights. When we're doing physical labor of the different kinds described earlier, there are other factors involved, including changes in the terrain, shifting of weight/mass in the loads being carried, etc. We develop the proprioception needed to make the necessary changes in our bodies to accommodate the changes in the environment around us and in the nature of the different work we are doing.

Except that "lifting weights" doesn't just mean what you think it means. You might be surprised if you were to look at the breadth of what is strength training today, rather than superficial impressions of it. You seem to believe that all "lifting weights" takes place in racks that limit the range of motion and isolate the work to one individual muscle group. That's just not so. Many strength training regimens are specifically designed around a goal of functional strength, not bulking up isolated muscle groups.

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote:

Weight lifting has the specific purpose of building muscular strength and bulk, and increasing bone density. It's not a secret that even very elderly people can benefit significantly from an appropriate level of weight training.

Vehicles have the specific purpose of traveling over paved roads, typically at speeds between 35 and 70 mph. They are not suited at slower or faster speeds, off roads, over water or through the air.

Except that "lifting weights" doesn't just mean what you think it means. You might be surprised if you were to look at the breadth of what is strength training today, rather than superficial impressions of it. You seem to believe that all "lifting weights" takes place in racks that limit the range of motion and isolate the work to one individual muscle group. That's just not so. Many strength training regimens are specifically designed around a goal of functional strength, not bulking up isolated muscle groups.

Sure, but you notice that the OP began with a very general statement - thus the general replies. Are there strength training regimens that are good for IP? Sure - but generally speaking, what most people do when they talk about weight lifting aren't it.

But the OP and the thread in general isn't about IP. It is about macrobiotics and to a lesser extent, weightlifting in aikido. Right now, right or not, IP and aikido are separate entities. And again, someone drops an Osensei anecdote taken out of time, place and context as an indictment of a training method.

I have read some articles regarding Aikido and a macrobiotic diet. I have incorporated some of the macrobiotic principles in my diet but I lift weights a few times a week and not sure if it gives me enough protein. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Tim

If you're incorporating some macrobiotic principles in your diet, and lifting weights, and you're building muscle mass and strength and maintaining endurance and overall wellbeing, then my guess is that you're getting enough protein.

If you go on a strict macrobiotic diet, and find that you have trouble keeping on muscle mass and have less endurance, then maybe you'd want to review your protein (and other nutrient) intake.

But the OP and the thread in general isn't about IP. It is about macrobiotics and to a lesser extent, weightlifting in aikido. Right now, right or not, IP and aikido are separate entities. And again, someone drops an Osensei anecdote taken out of time, place and context as an indictment of a training method.

"IP and Aikido are separate entities" according to some, but not according to others. In any case, there has already been a fair amount of ddiscussion in this thread about weight lifting and IP - I'm continuing in that vein.

What Chris said. How can one separate IP (and aiki) from aikido, when it was part and parcel to M. Ueshiba's own practice? Maybe that's why Jun lets the topic be discussed outside the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum nowadays.