Iain Duncan Smith suggests benefits limited to two kids

Iain Duncan Smith today warned that people on benefits could only receive support for their first two children in future. The Work and Pensions Secretary outlined the plan while condemning the "madness" of the state subsidising poor families to have large numbers of children

Iain Duncan Smith today warned that people on benefits could only receive support for their first two children in future.

The Work and Pensions Secretary outlined the plan while condemning the "madness" of the state subsidising poor families to have large numbers of children.

He said it would be fairer to the "vast majority" of responsible taxpayers if benefits were limited to the first two children in future.

The comments came as Tory ministers eye another £10bn of savings from the welfare budget by 2016 - on top of the £18 billion already made.

Interviewed on BBC Radio 4's Today programme ahead of a speech on the issue, Mr Duncan Smith said he was tackling an ingrained culture.

"We have accepted for far too long in this country that it is possible for people to just stay on benefits and we write them off," he said.

"It's no surprise that we are in massive debt and huge deficit because we are not paying our way.

"It is all about saying, we will give you massive support to find work, we've obviously got to help you and support you and get you right.

"But also, we have an expectation as the taxpayer pays for these bills that you seek work, that you try your hardest to find work. If you don't want to do that then there are penalties to be had. There is a balance here.

"You can't just sit there and gather more and more on benefits. Benefits should be, for many people - unless you are chronically sick - a temporary place, a place you then move on (from) and into work."

He warned that the current system encouraged poorer families to have large numbers of children without worrying about the cost.

"When you look at families across the board, at all incomes, you find the vast, vast majority make decisions about the kind of numbers of children they have, the families they want, based on what they think they can afford and how it is going to work," Mr Duncan Smith said.

"Where you see the clustering of the large families is really down at the very lowest incomes, those on significant levels of welfare, and those on the very top incomes.

"In other words, the problem for those who are paying the taxes, paying the bills - they make the decisions about their lives, even if they sometimes would like to maybe have extra children, they make decisions.

"People who are having support through welfare are often free from that decision...

"I'm saying, look, we want to support people if they have children when they are out of work, of course.

"But what we also want to say, this is what we are looking at, is really, is there an endless point to this? Can there not be a limit to the fact that really you need to remember you need to cut your cloth in accordance with what capabilities and what finances you have?"

Mr Duncan Smith denied the number of families he was referring to was "vanishingly small", insisting there were "large numbers of them".

He stressed that although there were "significant amounts of money" involved, pursuing reform was also a matter of "fairness".

"This is madness. It is madness also for the taxpayer," he added.

Mr Duncan Smith indicated he wanted to target welfare claimants having children in future, rather than existing families.

"My view is that if you did this we would start it for those who begin to have more than, say, two children," he added.

In his speech to the Cambridge Public Policy think-tank later, the Cabinet minister will say some parts of the welfare system are promoting "destructive" behaviour.

"You have to ask which bits of the system are most important in changing lives. And you have to look at which parts of the system promote positive behaviours and which are actually promoting destructive ones," he is expected to say.

Mr Duncan Smith will add: "Instead of supporting people in difficulty, the system all too often compounds that difficulty - doing nothing for those already facing the greatest problems and dragging the rest down with it."

"Our failure to make each pound count has cost us again and again over the years, not only in terms of a financial cost - higher taxes, inflated welfare bills and lower productivity - as people sit on benefits long-term.

"But also the social cost of a fundamentally divided Britain - one in which a section of society has been left behind.

"We must no longer allow ourselves to accept that some people are written off."