KABF will always be on the tough side without a mixer session and a longer bulk. You can use the dough calculator with a TF of .13-.18 to get a rough idea of what Bonci might use for dough ball size compared to your rectangular pan. A lot of the height you get on the bake is in part due to how well you develop the dough. I have seen Matt do .12 and get serious height, and I have done .18 and gotten flat results.

John

Thanks John, it's growing on me. What do you mean by "mixer session?" I mixed the dough in the picture above by hand.

Do you think KAAP would be a better choice?

What is the best method to get the dough even in the pan?

Thanks.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Thanks John, it's growing on me. What do you mean by "mixer session?" I mixed the dough in the picture above by hand.

Do you think KAAP would be a better choice?

What is the best method to get the dough even in the pan?

Thanks.

This type of dough can be done by hand, as you are doing, and treated exactly as you would bread. 8 hours with a large percentage of starter. But you can also develop the gluten to the intensive stage, and then cold ferment for a long period of time. Bonci teaches his class using the hand mix method and IDY with an overnight cold ferment. But he obviously uses a mixer for his production pizza - though I am not sure of the fermentation method.

One of the key factors for Bonci is determining what flour you want to use and then adapting the workflow to suit. From my experience, KABF is a HEAVY flour with gluten to match, and needs to be mixed mechanically and fermented a long time to get rid of the chewiness. So for me, the hand-mix approach to Bonci's pizza might not be the best way to go with KABF. But I love KABF for it's taste and ability to stand up to long fermentations. And you see the crumb it can produce. Mix the dough on a medium speed for around 4 minutes and then check it. You want it to start to pull away from the bowl and become a bit silky, even at that high a hydration. You can still use RT for 8 hours, maybe even double that if the temp is not too high - KABF can take it.

I used KABF for my Pizzarium/LB hybrid here, which had a very soft crumb. Further down I mention adding in a mixer session:

At that high a hydration, it is extremely difficult to get the dough even in the pan (I also have a really hard time). But I think that one of the defining characteristics of this pizza is the peaks and valleys that ensue. Many of Bonci's pies exhibit this unevenness.

At that high a hydration, it is extremely difficult to get the dough even in the pan (I also have a really hard time). But I think that one of the defining characteristics of this pizza is the peaks and valleys that ensue. Many of Bonci's pies exhibit this unevenness.

John

If I get a chance, I'll do a video this weekend of the mixing, balling, & panning.

Matt - Thanks so much for posting those videos. You can see how a spiral mixer is so gentle even at a relatively moderate speed. There is none of the smashing and slapping that happens in a kitchen aid. Also, I understand now why the double hydration is important - your mixing gets done more efficiently at the lower hydration, especially with the spiral.

As it applies to this style, I would suggest the spiral is more akin to gentle hand development over a period of a few hours, but gets the job done in a matter of minutes.

If you were choosing a spiral or fork mixer for general use, what would you go with if money and space were not prohibitive?

Matt - Thanks so much for posting those videos. You can see how a spiral mixer is so gentle even at a relatively moderate speed. There is none of the smashing and slapping that happens in a kitchen aid. Also, I understand now why the double hydration is important - your mixing gets done more efficiently at the lower hydration, especially with the spiral.

As it applies to this style, I would suggest the spiral is more akin to gentle hand development over a period of a few hours, but gets the job done in a matter of minutes.

If you were choosing a spiral or fork mixer for general use, what would you go with if money and space were not prohibitive?

John

No problem at all John. My choice hands down would be a spiral over a fork for general purpose home use. That being said, it would be great to have 2 speed but it's not possible without 3 phase power.

These pictures are from my last experiment. This time I used 50% whole spelt flour, 25% white spelt flour, 25% manitoba flour. 80% water.I started on wednesday and I baked it this morning (about 60 hours in the fridge).It was very good, but not that much different from my usual pies (which stay in the fridge for about 24 hours).

Giulio - It amazes me when I see 80% hydration doughs like this, using low-gluten flours such as spelt, and how effortless they look in terms of handling. I have such a hard time handling doughs of this hydration. Well done!

24hrs of cold fermentation and 2hrs to proof. Bake at 475 F for 10 mins or so.

I have my own liquid levain starter (100% hydration). I'm just confused about how to use the starter. When I make bread I usually make a ferment the night before. In this case, am I supposed to put 15% of the flour weight in levain directly into the mix?

Thanks!

PS: I often make bread using the Chad Robertson method from Tartine and it's striking how these two recipes are alike!

So I finally tried this recipe and I was surprised to see that my pizza stayed completely flat like a pancake. There were only a few tiny bubbles in the dough.

I did a 30 mins autolyse, followed by 10 mins in the mixer and then a bulk fermentation of 3h30 with S&F every 30 mins. The dough was rested in the fridge for 24 hr and I took it out 2hrs baking it for proofing.

I was wondering if any of you could point me in the right direction. Maybe I need to go through this thread again...

sounds as if your preferment was not active , did the preferment double in volume before you applied it to your flour mixture, did your bulk become airy when you tootook it out of the fridge? if not only one thing comes to mind- non active preferment-