author=G M link=topic=1447.msg44789#msg44789 date=1294969686]Keep in mind that lots of guns in the US trade hands while never getting near a licensed dealer with instacheck.

Woof, Which brings us to citizens being responsible gun owners and sellers; I make sure I know the person I'm selling to or I sell it back to a dealer and I record their name and address and the serial number of the weapon. If anything comes back on that weapon it's still registered to me or in case of a dealer resale, the new owner. In any case the weapon can still be tracked down and this is why most guns used in crimes are tracked down. Even those sold at gun shows are tracked down because most sellers ask to see ID. The people who do sell guns in a irresponsible manner are crooks and it's up to law enforcement to catch them. P.C.

Just wanted to share two stories with you all. 01NOV10 a man went to check an alarm coming from his neighbors apartment. When I arrived he met the BG in the driveway a scuffle ensued and he had his weapon taken from him and was shot three times and died. Second story. A few days before Xmas and families home was invaded by two scumbags. The Sb's took what they wanted and left. The father a Iraq war vet decided to go after them unarmed. He caught up with the two and was shot and killed for his trouble leaving his infant daughter fatherless.

Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street.

"I don’t know if they’re armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood."

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and don’t go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?"

"I don’t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?

"No, I don’t want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there."

The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.

Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.

"I can’t see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said.

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn’t know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said.Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"

Horn: "Yes?"

Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Dispatcher: "I understand."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Dispatcher: "I'm ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

Then Horn is back on the phone:"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"

Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"

Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?

Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."

Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"

Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."

Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."

Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."

Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."

Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?

Horn: "No, no, no."

Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."

Yelling is heard.

Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now." Two days later, Horn released a statement through an attorney.

“The events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life," it said. "My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased.”

The identities of the men killed were released Friday.

They are Miguel Antonio Dejesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30. Official records show that each of them had a prior arrest in Harris County for drug offenses.

The men were reportedly shot at a distance of less than 15 feet.

A woman who lives nearby who asked not to be identified told CBS News affiliate KHOU correspondent Rucks Russell that she always saw Horn as a grandfather figure. "He is the guardian of the neighborhood," she said. "He takes care of all our kids. If we ever need anything, we call him.”

But according to Tom Lambright, Horn’s attorney and a friend for more than four decades, he’s the one in need now. “He just needs everyone to know he’s not a villain, he’s not a bad guy,” Lambright said.

He went on to say that Horn voluntarily gave an extensive video statement to police immediately following the shooting.

Horn was not taken into custody after the shooting. A Harris County grand jury will decide if charges are to be filed.

Lambright says Horn acted in complete and total self defense and has nothing to hide.

Local opinion has been passionate on both sides of the shooting.

One letter to the Houston Chronicle said, "He didn't shoot them in the legs, to make sure they did not run away, or hold them at gunpoint until police arrived. No, he was judge, jury and executioner."

Another letter writer praised Horn, saying, "Where does the line form to pin a medal on Joe Horn? I want to get in line." Another wrote, "Let's get rid of the police force and just hire Joe Horn!"

Support for Horn was also running about 2-1 in an online survey of readers on the KHOU Web site.

The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

Florida beauty queen Meghan Brown, right, shot and killed an intruder with her pink .38-caliber handgun during a home invasion March 12 (FoxNews.com).

When a burly ex-convict forced his way into a posh Florida home last week, he had no idea what awaited him -- a 25-year-old beauty queen with a pink .38-caliber handgun.

Meghan Brown, a former Florida pageant queen, shot and killed 42-year-old Albert Franklin Hill during a home invasion March 12 at the 2,732-square-foot house she shares with her fiance in Tierra Verde, Fla.

Hill barged into the home at around 3 a.m. after Brown responded to a knock at the front door, according to a police report. He allegedly grabbed the 110-pound Brown around her nose and mouth and dragged her to an upstairs bedroom.

The woman’s fiance, Robert Planthaber, said in an interview that he was quickly awakened by the altercation and ran to Brown’s side.

"I attacked him and took a severe beating to the head," Planthaber told FoxNews.com. "But I got him off of her long enough for her to scramble to the room where she keeps her pink .38 special.”

Brown, who reigned as the 2009 Miss Tierra Verde, snatched her gun from a nearby bedroom and shot the suspect several times – hitting him in the chest, groin, thigh and back, her fiance said. Hill was pronounced dead at the scene.

Panthaber, a 42-year-old arborist, said he believes he and his fiancee were targeted because of their wealth. He claimed a pizza delivery man and possible accomplice staked out the home for three months before Hill attempted to burglarize it.

“We live in a very prominent area and my fiancee wears a $60,000 engagement ring,” he said. “The pizza man knew we had money because sometimes we needed change for a $100 bill when he came to deliver pizza.”

Hill had a criminal record stretching back nearly three decades -- including arrests for burglary, battery, drug possession and grand theft. He reportedly served a 13-year prison term in 1987 and was released in September after serving a fourth term behind bars.

Detectives with the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Robbery/Homicide Unit are still investigating the crime but believe the motive was robbery, according to local press reports. They say they haven’t yet determined the relationship, if any, Hill had with the couple. A police report said the ex-convict demanded money before the altercation between Hill and Panthaber ensued.

Panthaber, meanwhile, said he and his fiancee are lucky to be alive. He said he purchased the pink handgun for Brown last Christmas and that the two had gone to target practice together.

I took martial arts lessons in the early 80's and the insturctor who taught a modified ishinru style thought Kung Fu was not "effective" at stopping people. He said he only knew one perhaps tow Kung Fu experts he would feel confident could handle themselves in a real life situation. I am no expert. Just wondering if this would be the best style for airline employees to train in for self defense:

“On a trip to the Big Horn Mountains out in Wyoming, I came upon a gang of bikers who were threatening a young woman. I directed them to leave her alone, but they wouldn’t listen. So, I approached the largest and most tattooed biker and smacked him in the face, kicked his bike over, ripped out his nose ring, and threw it on the ground. I yelled, “Now, back off or I’ll kick the crap out of all of you!”

Girl slain, 2 wounded in apparent retaliation for good deedA Good Samaritan stops the beating of a woman down the street in San Bernardino only to have the attacker open fire on his house an hour later. The police chief vows to catch the killer.

Nylah Franco-Torres, 3, was shot in the head and pronounced dead at the hospitalBy Phil Willon, Los Angeles Times

September 14, 2011Fourteen-year-old Destiny Hull spent Tuesday morning mopping up dried blood from her grandmother's front porch, stains from an evening that began with an act of kindness and ended with an apparent act of vengeance that left a small girl dead and a pregnant woman and her young daughter seriously wounded.

The series of events in San Bernardino began Monday evening when a Good Samaritan who lived in the house — police won't say who for fear of tainting possible eyewitness accounts — saw a man beating a woman down the street, charged in and broke up the fight, allowing the woman to escape.

An hour later, the woman's attacker came to the male Good Samaritan's home and opened fire. Destiny's sister, who was five months pregnant, was shot in the jaw and neck, and bullets hit Destiny's two 3-year-old nieces in the head.

Destiny, overwhelmed by tears and fits of anger at the invading news cameras, stayed home from school to help clean up.

"I just can't believe this happened," she said, scrubbing the blood away from the porch, where the walls were pocked with bullet holes.

The shooting outraged residents of the working-class neighborhood. A large extended family lived in the home of Sophia Cardona, the matriarch who was inside cleaning and cooking tacos when she heard the shots.

Her grandson ran to the porch, scooped up the wounded children and drove them to the hospital.

"Whatever happened … was cowardice. He knew what he was doing and was trying to hurt someone. But he didn't have to hurt the children," Cardona said, breaking down in tears. "We lost one of our babies."

San Bernardino Police Chief Keith Kilmer called the shooting "tragic, senseless and despicable" and vowed to catch the killer.

"We will find you, we will seek you out and we will bring you to justice," Kilmer said at police headquarters, six blocks from where the shooting occurred.

The attack was the deadliest of four shootings overnight and through the morning in San Bernardino, a blue-collar town that for the last five years has worked feverishly to erase its image as a city with one of the state's highest levels of violence, attributed, in part, to an influx of L.A. gang members.

In the 1990s, the police officers association hawked "Murder City" T-shirts to raise money for a police memorial. But violent crime has dropped 40% since city voters approved a half-cent sales tax increase in 2006 for anti-crime programs.

"Just this week, I was talking to the police chief about the fact that we've had a remarkably peaceful summer in our fair city — 66 days of no homicides," Mayor Patrick Morris said. "And then the explosion came last night, and it was beyond tragic."

"Today, we'll come together as a city and find justice for this family," he added.

Cardona's neighborhood is one of many scarred by the crushing years of recession in the Inland Empire. The windows of the house next door are boarded up with plywood, and a "for sale" sign is posted on one. Empty shops dot the nearby retail strips.

"It's a bad area, it's a very bad area, and it's getting worse," said Janie Lopez, 58, who lives in an apartment across the street from the shooting site.

Lopez said Cardona's front patio is often crowded with family, and on occasion, she's seen police at the home.

Police spokeswoman Lt. Gwendolyn Waters confirmed that there have been "criminal issues at that house over the years," but emphasized that detectives believe this shooting was unrelated. "This was someone who was just trying to do a good deed," Waters said.

Police declined to release specifics about who they believe was the intended target of the attack other than to say that the gunman knew the Good Samaritan lived at the house.

The shooting happened about 7:45 p.m. Monday as the family was about to sit down for dinner and the kids were playing out front. The next morning, dolls were still lying on the concrete porch, along with three empty 40-ounce beer bottles.

Nylah Franco-Torres, 3, was shot in the head and pronounced dead at the hospital. Cardona said her great-granddaughter was a joyful child who didn't deserve such a violent fate.

"She was a sweet little girl. She loved going to the store. She was happy," Cardona said. "The first thing she did in the morning was turn on the TV and watch cartoons."

Cardona said her granddaughter La-Donna Howie, 21, and Howie's daughter Justine were the others wounded. Howie, who is five months pregnant, was listed in stable condition at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. Her unborn child was unharmed and in good condition, police said. Justine was in extremely critical condition at Loma Linda University Medical Center with a head wound.

Police described the suspect as a black man in his early 20s, about 6 feet tall, weighing 160 to 170 pounds, with short dark hair.

"I'm concerned that maybe this man will not be found," Cardona said. "But we will keep going."

"A man's attempt to stop an assault on a San Bernardino street led to a shooting that killed a 3-year-old girl and left a pregnant mother and her young daughter in critical condition, police said Tuesday."

"Officers urged the woman who was being beaten by the shooting suspect to contact police.She has not reported the crime"

So one innocent 3 year old dead, two more in critical condition. And the woman who was assaulted won't even report the assault or identify the shooter.

Gee, I bet that Good Samaritan is happy he got involved.... And so is the dead little girl and two others critically injured.

We've had this discussion before on this forum, this is just another example of why it's better not to get involved unless you or your immediate family are directly threatened. Just call 911.

Reductions will put law enforcement on pace for its first job decline in 25 years

By Kevin Johnson USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — By year's end, nearly 12,000 police officers will have lost their jobs, and 30,000 positions in county and municipal departments will go unfilled, both direct consequences of a faltering economy that has forced deep cuts in local government budgets.

The sweeping reductions, outlined in a Justice Department review to be delivered today to the nation's police chiefs meeting in Chicago, put law enforcement on pace for its first job decline in 25 years.

"The effects of the economic downturn on law enforcement agencies may be felt for the next five to 10 years, or worse, permanently,'' the report concluded, adding that the days when local governments allocated up to 50% of their budgets for public safety are "no longer a fiscal possibility.''

The majority of public monies go to transfer payments. Apply a little pressure on spending and they cut necessary services instead - the ones that hurt the people most in retaliation. Don't let them do that.

My tenant last night had their house and persons ransacked while home in a brutal search for money they didn't have. Response time from the police 1/2 block off the major nerve center in a volatile inner city neighborhood was 15 minutes after the fact, of absolutely no use. 2nd forceable entry in 2 weeks - while home! The tornado of June was a walk in the park compared to human terror. What do I tell them? Good people should leave the city? Then who is left?

The majority of public monies go to transfer payments. Apply a little pressure on spending and they cut necessary services instead - the ones that hurt the people most in retaliation. Don't let them do that.

My tenant last night had their house and persons ransacked while home in a brutal search for money they didn't have. Response time from the police 1/2 block off the major nerve center in a volatile inner city neighborhood was 15 minutes after the fact, of absolutely no use. 2nd forceable entry in 2 weeks - while home! The tornado of June was a walk in the park compared to human terror. What do I tell them? Good people should leave the city? Then who is left?

I know of two forceable entries that would never happen again if the tenants had shot the perps.

In the case of the first incident, they were unarmed crack fiends taking copper pipes, more scared than my tenant when they were caught. Shoot 'em? In the second case it was the perps who were armed and took full advantage of the element of surprise at 6:30pm on a week night. Would you really be sitting there armed, loaded and waiting as they barge in? If not, it is the perps who would have likely found and taken the weapon and ammo after they shot the dog and dragged the girlfriend around the house demanding to know where the money was. How does that help prevent it from happening again?

I suppose you could shoot 'em before they enter but today it was me coming up to the door so I don't think I will recommend that.

GM. Thank you. My understanding in our state unless laws have changed is that he would have been guilty of murder had he shot the first intruders. In the second instance the tenants were totally overpowered. They broke through a solid 2+ inch deadbolted door. What then, more deadbolts, thicker chains? Okay. Most of the things I do to go further with extra security to windows and doors, metal caging over windows for example, are against city code because they also block easy exit in case of smoke and fire. It was obvious from the outside the tenants had a dog and that meant nothing to them either. They shot the dog. I like motion lights and have posted a range of other steps I take, but intruders this determined would appear to stop at nothing. They certainly didn't care if anyone was home.

It is our equivalent of illegal immigration, but the people who do this in our bad neighborhoods come here from some very worse areas of some much worse, midwestern cities. Instead of putting up a fence, we pay them to come here.

Shotguns have a great role in defending fixed positions at close ranges. Even birdshot from a 12 gauge is devistating within 15 feet or so. Most anyone can afford a shotgun and some training/range time with it.

If you live in a place with shall issue CCW laws, it's a serious mistake not to have one.

"If someone is trying to breach your door, I'm assuming that there is a degree of delay, allowing for a response, yes?"

In this worst case scenario, no. It was overwhelming force, door broken through, guns drawn, guns used - they shot the dog and held the gun to the woman, total surprise, no notice.

"Is it going to be enough time to allow law enforcement to respond? Probably not."

It was worse than that. They didn't have a phone. There wasn't going to be a call, much less a response, until going to a neighbor after the ordeal. Very sad.-----------Offenses Recorded: Burglary of Dwelling - Assault degree 2 - Public Information: Suspects kicked in the front door of the above address. Suspects shot at V-1 and threatened V-2 with a gun. Suspects are unknown. Animal control responded.Photos were taken and the memory card along with spent shell casings were property inventorie ...

Give some credit to Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman, even if the outcome of the Evanovich case was nothing more than common sense. Darren Evanovich and his sister participated in an armed robbery outside of a grocery store in Minneapolis last week, which they concluded by pistol-whipping the middle-aged woman they robbed. A Good Samaritan chased after Evanovich, but Evanovich pulled the gun when he turned the corner. Unfortunately for Evanovich, the Good Samaritan had a carry permit and a handgun of his own — which he drew and fired after Evanovich drew first. Evanovich died almost immediately, and the question became whether the police and/or the DA would charge him with homicide.

Not only did Freeman decline to press charges, he commended the Good Samaritan for responding to “his fellow citizen in need”:

No charges will be filed against the “Good Samaritan” who shot and killed a robber two weeks ago in the parking lot of a Cub Foods store in Minneapolis.

That word today from the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office….

According to witnesses, the man drove up to the spot where he saw Evanovich going through the victim’s purse and asked him if he wanted to give the purse back.

Witnesses say that’s when it started to turn ugly–Evanovich pointed his gun at the “Good Samaritan,” and moved towards him.

The man in the vehicle pulled out his handgun and shot Evanovich.

Authorities say after they reviewed the circumstances, they determined that the man “acted in self-defense.”

Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said today in a press release, “While this man is to be commended for helping his fellow citizen in need, a note of caution is appropriate. We prefer that armed citizens do not chase after criminals. Too much can go wrong with deadly consequences.”

That’s actually good advice. As the late Joel Rosenberg wrote and taught, a carry permit is not a Junior G-Man badge. In those circumstances, people would be better advised to call 911 and let the police deal with the situation rather than confronting an assailant known to be armed. However, it was clear from the beginning that the Good Samaritan didn’t initiate the deadly threat, and that the perp was a dangerous person.

If all you knew about this case came from the local media, however, you’d never know that. My radio partner and carry-permit activist Mitch Berg has followed this case closely at Shot in the Dark, and has blasted the coverage this case received from local print and TV. That includes KSTP, which produced today’s much more balanced report, and WCCO, which gave Evanovich’s mother a sympathetic interview that made the claim that Evanovich was the victim. The Star Tribune printed a lengthy article that focused on Evanovich’s dedication to his community, which unsurprisingly left out a few details about Evanovich’s last few moments of life, and made it sound as if the Good Samaritan had just hunted Evanovich down like a dog.

In fact, here’s a great look at Matt McKinney’s “reporting” on this story:

The investigation ensnared Evanovich’s sister, Octavia Marberry, this week when she was jailed on allegations of fraud and aggravated robbery. She had been with Evanovich the night he died, and according to their mother, held him in her arms as he took his last breath.

She was “with Evanovich the night he died,” all right — she was an accomplice in the crime:

Authorities say they believe 20-year-old Octavia Marberry of Minneapolis has possibly been involved as an accomplice in this and two other store parking lot robberies.

According to the criminal complaint, on Thursday, October 20th, a 53-year-old woman was robbed just before 10:00 p.m. outside the Cub Foods on 26th Avenue and struck in the head by a gun held by the robber, 23-year-old Darren Evanovich.

Minneapolis Police say their investigation showed that at least two other people were with him and one of them was Marberry.

In fact, in the new KSTP report above, it sounds as though Octavia Marberry may have been the ringleader of this gang. The investigation didn’t “ensnare” her, as the Strib tries to frame it — Marberry was always at the center of it.

Given the kind of pressure that the local media tried to put on Freeman, his decision to do the right thing is all the more remarkable. Kudos to him, and jeers to the local media that tried to turn a victim into a criminal and the criminals into victims. They should be ashamed of themselves. They won’t be, but they should.

You can bet that Mitch and I will be discussing this on today’s NARN, so be sure to tune in.

GM: "Ok, let's now unleash the ignorant assclowns to discuss how the poor felon shouldn't have died based on biased media reporting. Oh wait, the shooter wasn't a cop."

The local media ('ignorant assclowns') were in fact out drawing sympathy for the sister: "The investigation ensnared Evanovich's sister...She had been with Evanovich the night he died, and according to their mother, held him in her arms as he took his last breath." http://m.startribune.com/news/?id=132754113&c=y

Very sad story except... she happened to be there as the accomplice, wielding the knife cutting the throat of robbery victim who also ended up with 2 black eyes.

CBS affiliate draws more sympathy to the felon family, the deceased was the victim??

"MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — The mother of a robbery suspect who was shot and killed says her son was the victim.

A witness saw 23-year-old Darren Evanovich committing a robbery in south Minneapolis Thursday night. He chased Evanovich down and, after a confrontation, shot and killed him.

Evanovich’s family said the man who killed Darren was no hero. “I was so scared,” said Mary Evanovich, the robbery suspect’s mother. “All I wanted was my baby, but I didn’t want it to be true.”

Evanovich is searching for answers as to why her son had to die. “How can a person play judge, jury and executioner and God, who gave the person the right to be God,” Evanovich said.

A homeowner in Port Orchard, Washington, did what the police could not do: He shot and stopped a bad guy. Two police officers tried to stop the man with a taser. He managed to escape and they will spend 1-to-3 days off-duty recovering.

The 47-year-old man then entered the home of a man in his 20s, who fired one shot into the suspect’s belly and that ended that. The suspect was sent to St. Joseph’s Medical Center in Tacoma, where he is listed in stable condition.

The Kitsap Sun has the story.

Now I do not know all the details and the Washington State Police are investigating, but it seems to me that this may be another example of tasers being ineffective. They cannot subdue a criminal and if you use them on a protester, well, Don’t Tase Me, Bro, is a slogan on a T-short.

Maybe it is time to drop the taser in favor of the old-fashioned billy club. baton.

Pepper spray, too.

They don’t seem to be effective and they seem to get cops in trouble a lot. But I defer to the judgment of the guys on the line.

Oh, and a note to all those anti gun idiots out there that pretend that they are experts on self defense and who say that regular people, especially little old ladies with guns, will just be killed with their own weapon, well you're idiot's!

SALT LAKE CITY — Red Voltage and two of his masked crime-fighting colleagues were approaching an intersection here in Utah’s capital on a recent evening, walking night patrol on foot, when a car suddenly slowed next to them. The night was bitterly cold, laced with a wispy stew of fog that might or might not conceal a thousand dangers. The car’s window rolled down.

“Hi, superheroes!” a woman shouted from within. “I’m in love with you guys!” Eat your heart out, Batman. In a niche of urban life that has evolved in recent years somewhere between comic-book fantasy and the Boy Scout oath, a cadre of self-cast crusaders — some with capes, some without, all with something to prove — are on the march. They prowl the night in Boston, in San Francisco, in Milwaukee, in Minneapolis, even as far away as Australia. Whether they are making the world safer or just weirder remains an open question. Some go out armed with gear like mace, pepper spray or police batons; others say they carry only cellphones, aiming to be eyes and ears for the police, who in most cities, including Salt Lake City, are keeping a wary distance. “We’re not endorsing them, supporting them, condemning them or anything else — we’re staying neutral and out of it,” said Detective Joshua Ashdown, a spokesman for the Salt Lake City Police Department. “The ones we endorse are the ones we have trained.” Red Voltage, who in mild-mannered daytime life is a 23-year-old residential leasing manager named Roman Daniels, casually waved a gloved hand to his female drive-by fan. Clad head to toe in a red-and-black leather suit, his face covered by spandex, he is, he said, a different man when the mask goes on — a better man. “But there are times when I’m putting the suit on, and I’m just like, ‘How crazy am I to do this?’ I do feel odd and out of the box,” said Mr. Daniels, who took over leadership of the group here, called the Black Monday Society, about six months ago, after two years of patrols. “But it’s good,” he added. “It feels really good — for the most part.” Mike Gailey, a burly former bouncer at a strip club whose crime-fighting persona is called Asylum, said that for him, joining the Black Monday Society was partly about making amends for things in his past, like the time he spent collecting debts for drug dealers. “I was a thug,” said Mr. Gailey, 31. “There are a lot of guys like me that have pasts they’re trying to make up for.” Another Black Monday patroller described himself as a former gang member. The group’s co-founder, Dave Montgomery, a tattoo artist known in the street as the black-leather-clad Nihilist, said he was a former alcoholic who put on the mask when he stopped drinking. That crime fighters would have issues is, of course, a time-honored tradition, too. Superman was sent to Earth by his parents. The X-Men are ostracized mutants. And let’s not even get started on the wealthy Bruce Wayne — he of the Bat Cave and Boy Wonder sidekick. Some crime fighters have run afoul of authority. In Seattle, for example, a man in a muscle suit, Phoenix Jones, was arrested in October after the police said he pepper-sprayed some people while trying to break up a street fight. Other masked avengers, past and present, have had very specific agendas in fighting societal ills. In the early 2000s, for example, a woman in New York, whose persona was Terrifica, took to patrolling pick-up bars in pink and purple spandex. “She had apparently had some bad experiences with men,” said Tea Krulos, a writer in Milwaukee who is researching a book on what he and others call the “real-life superhero movement.” “Her mission was to warn drunk women that they might not be making good decisions.” New attitudes about the police might also be affecting how the crime fighters are perceived. Here in Salt Lake City, for example, a Black Monday patrol going past the Occupy Salt Lake City encampment in a downtown plaza on a recent night was greeted very warmly. A nonpolice crime watch, several protesters said, is more than welcome these days. “This is this exactly what needs to happen in the world — you know, why do we need police when we can help each other out?” said Poyce Denikma, 21, a former construction worker who is now a protester. “They’re setting an example, an amazing example, for what needs to happen.” Other people who encountered the patrol were not so sure. “I’m still thinking about it,” said Rebecca Vest, a Seattle resident who was in Salt Lake City for a friend’s wedding and had gone out for a walk. Ms. Vest said the incident in her city involving the superhero with the pepper spray had raised some worries. “But I think sometimes just the presence of people helps, and they’re certainly not hiding in the woodwork,” she said, after posing for a photograph with the Black Monday patrol. “They’re right out there, going, ‘Hey, here we are.’ ” Mr. Montgomery, or Nihilist, said masks were everywhere once you started to look. What is hidden and what is revealed by disguise, he said, is the basic psychology of a superhero’s life. “It’s almost Freudian,” he said. “When you wear a mask, you’re actually able to become who you really are. It becomes kind of like a drug.” He acknowledged that dressing up in what some might see as Halloween attire has at times made Black Monday patrollers a target for crime themselves, or at least abuse. But he said that intelligence and reason almost always defuse the occasional tension with drunks or other toughs who might see the patrollers as targets to be bullied. “Once we start talking, they don’t really see us as chumps or dorks in suits,” he said. Lately, though, Mr. Montgomery has been patrolling less and parenting more. He has joint custody with his ex-wife of their 5-year-old daughter, Frankie, and Frankie stays with her father most nights. But on Thursdays and Fridays, she goes to her mother’s, leaving two nights off for suiting up and going on patrol. “Got your blankey?” he asked her as they prepared to head to her kindergarten class on a recent morning. Inside, the children were preparing for a holiday party — each child assigned to prepare a secret gift for another student. Even before first grade, Frankie was working undercover. “Remember, you’re a Secret Santa,” Mr. Montgomery whispered to her. “Don’t tell.”

Other masked avengers, past and present, have had very specific agendas in fighting societal ills. In the early 2000s, for example, a woman in New York, whose persona was Terrifica, took to patrolling pick-up bars in pink and purple spandex. “She had apparently had some bad experiences with men,” said Tea Krulos, a writer in Milwaukee who is researching a book on what he and others call the “real-life superhero movement.” “Her mission was to warn drunk women that they might not be making good decisions.”

An Oklahoma 911 operator calmly advised a recently widowed mother who asked if it was permissible to shoot an intruder, officials said Wednesday."I've got two guns in my hand. Is it OK to shoot him if he comes in this door?" asked Sarah Dawn McKinley of Blanchard.

An Oklahoma 911 operator calmly advised a recently widowed mother who asked if it was permissible to shoot an intruder, officials said Wednesday."I've got two guns in my hand. Is it OK to shoot him if he comes in this door?" asked Sarah Dawn McKinley of Blanchard.

GREENBRAE, Calif. — A Marin County burglar picked the wrong house to target late Wednesday morning when he ended up in a gun battle with a 90-year-old World War II-veteran that left both men hospitalized.At around 10:45 a.m., police said the intruder -- 30-year-old Samuel Cutrufelli -- may have been trying to commit a burglary that turned into a shootout with elderly but well-armed property owner Jay Leone at the house on Via La Cumbre."He was home alone when his door was kicked open," Twin Cities Police Sgt. Mike Norton told KTVU. "The suspect entered and basically took him captive. The victim was able at one point to arm himself with a firearm and shoot the suspect three times. The suspect had his own fire arm. He was able to shoot the victim one time."Police said Leone shots hit the intruder in the torso, arm and leg.Friend and neighbor Scott Chalstrom told KTVU Leone is a former sheriff's deputy and physically fit."I'm shocked," said Chalstrom. "This is not the type of area you have this type of stuff going on in."Police said the suspect fled, but called police himself less than a mile away, claiming to have shot himself accidentally.KTVU spoke with a woman who was just steps away when the shooting started. Sara Navon rents a downstairs room in the house where the shooting took place.She said she was not surprised that her landlord -- a former military man who also worked in law enforcement -- fought off the suspected intruder with deadly force.Navon didn't know it at first, but her 90-year-old landlord was in a fight for his life just one floor above her in the Greenbrae home where they both live."I shouted for him 'Jay! Jay!'" said Navon. She also called 911.Leone had been shot in the face, but Navon said his act of bravery made good on a promise he made to her years ago."He always told me," remembered Navon. "Sometimes I would be scared. He said 'Don't worry. I'm above and I have a weapon. I was the best sniper. I'm good.' And I said 'Ok!'"Police said both men are in stable condition at Marin General Hospital.On Wednesday night, Navon was staying with friends. She spoke with KTVU by phone after she visited Leone in the hospital. She said the bullet went through his cheek, but surprisingly did not break any bones."It was very difficult for him to talk," said Navon. "He was in good spirits."Sgt. Norton told KTVU he was very impressed with Leone, saying that the 90-year-old was able to tell police what happened while he was in the ambulance. The suspect Cutrufelli will be charged with burglary and attempted murder.

In the first days of May, 2009, in the notoriously dangerous neighborhood of College Park in Atlanta, Georgia, two armed criminals broke into a house party of students.

After confiscating the group's valuables, the invaders split the men and women up into different rooms.

Witnesses say the perpetrators then counted their rounds and discussed if they had "enough" ammunition.

The students believed the gunmen were going to rape and murder the entire group of students, who were celebrating a birthday at the end of the semester.

However, one male student, whose identity is being protected by police and local media, retrieved a handgun from his backpack and fired at the thug who was detaining the men.

(That is: One smart student had prepared for a night in College Park, Atlanta.)

The criminal fled the apartment under the threat of injury and never returned.

The student continued on into the girls' room, found the other thug, 23-year-old Calvin Lavant, preparing to rape his first victim.

The student exchanged gunfire with Lavant, lethally wounding him in the process. Lavant fled through a window and died in front of his apartment, only one building away.

One of the female students was injured during the exchange, but doctors expect a full and complete recovery.

So what's the point?

A student saved the girls from rape, and saved the whole group of 10 people (including himself) from murder . . . and he did it with a handgun.

This is a perfect example of how ludicrous "big city gun laws" are. What if this had happened in New York, Chicago, or any of the other big cities that criminalize their citizens' self defense?

Yes, we would be reading an entirely different story -- one so horrendous that we would shudder at the very words.

Either this whole group of friends would have been raped and murdered by these two sorry excuses for human beings . . . or the hero of this story would be facing prison time for firearm possession and murder.

And that's exactly how gun-grabber Michael Bloomberg and his Mayors Against Illegal Guns want it.

Thankfully, however, Atlanta hasn't outlawed self-defense yet. And since someone had a gun and was willing to use it, innocent life was preserved.

Congratulations to the unnamed hero of this story. You saved your friends' lives.