「かれは、日本に行ったことがないわりには日本語がうまい。」He is good at Japanese, despite never having gone to Japan. (or, to translate the feeling of the sentence: "His Japanese is better than what you would expect from someone who has never been to Japan." - this is just an example sentence, not everyone has to go to a country to speak the language of that country well!)

↑I've underlined the parts that might be considered a translation of the nuance of わりに。

Last edited by writebook on Fri 04.09.2010 3:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

「農民のくせに、武士にさからうのか？」You dare oppose a samurai, despite being a (lowly) farmer?(looking down on farmers)

「彼はバンパイアのくせに、血を見るのがこわかった。」He was afraid of seeing blood, despite being a vampire.(a vampire who is afraid of blood is laughable, not like a vampire)

「彼はお金持ちのくせに、けちだ。」He was miserly, despite having lots of money.(not like a rich person, in a bad way)

I've just realized that in the first two examples, the negative feeling comes from the first half of the sentence (the speaker's view or attitude towards people who don't know anything or the farmer caste) but in the last two example, the first part isn't necessarily negative (being a vampire or rich person), and the negativeness comes from not living up to what you would expect from the first part. So the negativeness might come either from just the first part, or from the sentence as a whole.

So, わりに and くせに have something to do with the speaker's expectations or attitude.ても and のに are much simpler. のに is like "Despite the fact that ..." and ても is like "Even if ...." They are more like simple contradictions and they don't reflect the speaker's evaluation or feelings towards something the way わりに and くせに do.

What separates のに and ても (as far as I can think of at this moment) is that the thing that comes before のに must be something that is already true. If it is something that is hypothetical (like a condition), you need to use ても。

For example, 彼は勉強したのに、英語の点数が悪かった。Even though he studied, (his) English score was bad.(Despite A being true (studied), B happened (English score was bad).)

文法だけ勉強しても、英語はうまくならない。Even if (you) study just grammar, (you) won't get better at English. (Even if you were to satisfy condition A (study grammar), result B follows (not get good at English).)

攻撃が直撃したのに…ダメージがない！Even though the attack was a direct hit... there's no damage!(Despite A being true, B happened.)

ふはははは！もう、あやまっても許してやらんぞ！Mwahahaha! I won't forgive you anymore, even if you apologize!(Even if you were to satisfy condition A (apologize), result B follows (be unforgiven).)

*When distinguishing these two, it might help if you can remember the origin of the word のに. I think the の in のに is the same as the の/ん that is used to nominalize a phrase (for example, make 財布を落しました into 財布を落としたんです). It is the same の/ん that is used to "explain" your reality or your situation, and you can't talk about a situation in that "explanatory" tone unless it is already true (unless it is a question or something). However, while the part that comes before のに has to be true, that doesn't mean it always has to be in the past tense.

彼は来週、中国に行くのに、まだチケットを買っていない。Even though he will go to China next week, he still hasn't bought his ticket.(although he hasn't gone to China yet, the fact that he's intending to go there is already true at this moment.)

If it follows something hypothetical, you should use ても。If you want to "explain" a situation and then follow up with what happened despite that situation, you should use のに。I think that much is correct.

However, I can think of some sentences where ても can be used for something that is true, not just hypothetical. 英語で話したのに、通じなかった。Even though I spoke in English, (they) could not understand.

英語で話しても、通じなかった。the nuance is like- "Speaking in English did not work."

Although I've written different translations to reflect the difference in nuance of the underlined parts, I need to think more about this to explain exactly what the difference is. If anyone else knows a more exact definition of the difference between ても and のに, it would be appreciated.

It's a very difficult thing to explain. I think you've done quite well, writebook さん！I've looked it up in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and there's a rather long-winded explanation there but this is what it says...

のに

Contrary to everybody's expectation based on the sentence preceding noni, the proposition in the sentence following -noni is not the case. examples:

このステーキは高いのにおいしくない。In spite of the fact that this steak is expensive, it isn't delicious.

Later it goes on to say that the speaker of -noni is personally involved with the propsition of sentence 1 and creates an emotive tone. This may be the subtle difference in nuance between -noni and -temo

ても

Temo is used when that which is expressed in the main clause is not what is expected from the content of the dependent (temo) clause.

Thank you so much, Nocturnal Ocean. I'm interested in teaching Japanese, and these examples help me explain the difference between ても and のに to someone a little better.

1)のに can't be used for the future. It's used for something that happened.

2)のに has some emotional content. It shows that you really felt something should have happened in a certain way, but something else happened instead.

3)The result of のに can't be something that you did willfully, it has to be something that "happened to you". (*However, your own feelings can be a surprise to yourself, and can be considered as "something that happened to you." So your own feelings and sensations can be Y clause (the result part of のに). For example,「なぜだろう。彼女にふられたのに、あまり悲しくない。」(I don't know why, I just got dumped by my girlfriend, but I don't feel so sad.) or「麻酔（ますい=anesthesia）をしたはずなのに痛い」 (I am supposed to have received anesthetics, but it still hurts.)You just can't use your own willful decisions as Y. However, it will have to be a very sadistic, nit-picking test-maker to make a question that requires you to use のに for your own feelings that "happened to you.")

On the other hand, ても can be used for the future. It is used to explain how one thing does not lead to the other. It kind of feels like the opposite of ～ば、or ～と、which show that the first thing will lead to the second thing as a result.

However, there is still something I don't know how to explain....(cont.)

Last edited by writebook on Thu 04.15.2010 9:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

I still don't know how to explain the difference between のに in the past tense and ても・でも in the past tense.助けを呼んだのに、誰も来なかった。I called for help, but nobody came (even though I feel somebody should have come and helped me. That is how things should be).

助けを呼んでも、誰も来なかった。Calling for help didn't work (the method used or action taken did not induce an expected result) and nobody came.

I totally understand the difference in feeling myself, but can't define it in a clear way.

It won't be necessary for passing proficiency tests (at least in tests fill-in-the-blank-with-the-correct-word-test, because both answers can be correct.) But in everyday communication, it could communicate a somewhat different feel about something that happened.

With "even though"/～のに, there's a real expectation that someone should have come to help. People were around, and maybe even heard you, and being that they were your friends you would have expected someone to come, but no one did. Or, maybe you were trying to persuade someone walking away to help, and by putting it this way with のに you want to emphasize that helping was the expected thing they should have done. You called for help, and despite that, no one helped. You feel betrayed, disgusted, or confused as to how this could have happened.

With "even when"/～ても, calling for help was one of your attempts to get out of the situation, and it too failed. Maybe you were just trying out of desperation with no expectation at all, or perhaps you did think there was a good chance that someone might help... maybe you tried to persuade someone walking away to help... but regardless, your efforts are in vain and no one listens. Your best attempts fail, and you feel helpless. You are drawing attention to your own plight, describing your own situation with this sentence - rather than criticizing the failure of the environment to respond to you.

Hi. As for ても, in Chinese we have a similar structure “A 也 B”. It seams not to imply "contrary A and B", but implies "an extreme case". I'm not sure if it's the same as ても in Japanese.

The nuance of "A 也 B。" is like this:"X B"。 just as expectedA is a more extreme situation than X, the result should change."A 也 B"。Even A is a more extreme situation than X, B sill will happen.

If B is word like "be bad", "will fail", it have a nuance like "No matter what you do, it will do work."If B is word like "be good" "will success", it have a nuance like "Although it's not the best, but acceptable." or "A is not the only one that works".We also use the structure to make polite request, it sounds like "(something is suitable) This request may be unduly. Will it still be acceptable? "

yangmuye wrote:The nuance of "A 也 B。" is like this:"X B"。 just as expectedA is a more extreme situation than X, the result should change."A 也 B"。Even A is a more extreme situation than X, B sill will happen.

5分前に予約しても大丈夫だった。(I made a reservation only 5 minutes in advance, but it was still ok.)

yangmuye wrote:If B is word like "be bad", "will fail", it have a nuance like "No matter what you do, it will do work."

逃げても無駄だ。 "Even if you run away, it's no use."一生かけても読み切れない。 "I can't read all of it even if I spend my whole life."

yangmuye wrote:If B is word like "be good" "will success", it have a nuance like "Although it's not the best, but acceptable." or "A is not the only one that works".

「電話をしたほうがいいけれど、eメールでもいいよ。」"It's better if (you) call (him/her), but an e-mail is acceptable"

yangmuye wrote:We also use the structure to make polite request, it sounds like "(something is suitable) This request may be unduly. Will it still be acceptable? "

Now that you mention it, asking for permission with ても such as「トイレにいってもいいですか？」does sounds slightly more polite than「トイレにいっていいですか？」