ProfWag wrote:Scepcop, in your own words, what makes you think they are paranormal events?

I don't think anything. But if you watch the documentary and events, they are clearly VERY compelling in support of reincarnation. No other explanation accounts for the cases. I told you, don't comment on a thread about a video unless you watch it first. It's only 40 minutes and is not a conspiracy documentary, so you should have no problem stomaching it. Come on now.

See, that's the issue here. How can we discuss anyting if you don't give a damn about the actual content? Why post it if you don't want to discuss and share your views on it? I watched it. Now, if you are such a "freethinker," please tell us what you think of the video and why it's so compelling to you. You've asked me to spend 40 minues watching a video. Fine (though I had already seen it). Now all I'm asking is for you to spend 10 minutes spelling out your thoughts on why you think it can't be explained. Do you really think that this is undeniably paranormal? If so, why? If not, why not? I'm not asking for near as much as what you're asking of me Winston.

Why are you trying to cause confusion? I think that the events in the film suggest reincarnation because no other explanation accounts for all the facts presented. But we can't test this or find absolute proof of it, since we do not understand the mechanism and this is an area beyond us that we cannot touch or control.

What is your rational conclusion based on the data? Can you say it without any bias or prejudice?

Why don't you try to discuss these cases instead of ridiculing me? You are the one who refuses to discuss the content.

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

When you start off a discussion by saying something is irrefutable, it's not a great start to what is supposed to be a rational, unbiased discussion, Scepcop. And seriously, you can't think of even ONE thing that would falsify your conclusions here? Faulty memories, stories that grow over time, even deliberate fraud, confirmation bias, etc? I'm not arguing for any of those specifically in this case, but its tough to say that none of them are possible, right?

But that's what makes these cases so difficult. We're trying to evaluate stories told by fallible people. And as you allude above, its very hard to test.

Scepcop wrote:Why are you trying to cause confusion? I think that the events in the film suggest reincarnation because no other explanation accounts for all the facts presented. But we can't test this or find absolute proof of it, since we do not understand the mechanism and this is an area beyond us that we cannot touch or control.

What is your rational conclusion based on the data? Can you say it without any bias or prejudice?

Why don't you try to discuss these cases instead of ridiculing me? You are the one who refuses to discuss the content.

I don't mean to come across as ridiculing Scepcop, but it's so darn frustrating when people post a video, tell me it can't be refuted, then don't give any personal explanation. Essentially, that person is relying solely on the word of a sensationalized TV documentary and not thinking through alternate scenarios. Remember, Discovery, History, and other channels are in it to make money. They tend to focus on the mystery rather than an explanation.Explanation? Naw, I can't give a solid one. But could it be possible that an experience was coincidence? Could it have been improperly investigated? Could it have been exagerated (or flat out lied about) by a family member? Could it be a combination of all three (or more) that resulted in a money-making entity such as Discovery filming a TV documentary wanting to make a profit? I would say yes to all. So, what do you think Scepcop, are my explanations plausible or have you ruled them out? If you've ruled them out, then why? That's what I am always hoping to hear from you.

Arouet wrote:Craig, not sure if your long post really addressed the coordination aspect of how the recently deceased specically get matched up with particular wombs.

Such quick turn-arounds happen (according to reincarnation theory) when a soul skips the mapping process and simply jumps back into a life. . . sometimes this can happen when someone is dying at the same time someone is being born, the first entity bumping the awaiting soul out of the way and literally stealing it's life. Such situations can create a great deal of anxiety for all involved and it's rare that such things turn out for the better. Then you have those cases in which someone is on the brink of death and a wondering soul that has the need to complete certain tasks, simply step into the body at what would be the moment of death. People that knew such individual will attest to how their personalities and attitudes in life completely shift, even the foods they like will change.

Rarely, you will find an instance in which an enlightened soul intercepts a new child or toddler and in those instances it's more of a cohabitation than not. The original entity that was supposed to live a particular life freely surrenders the existence for the greater good the other "enlightened" entity will allow to happen -- theologically it's an awesome way of earning some major Karma kudos.

Step-Ins such as you're asking about, are quite common when it comes to those that remember dying during war in that the slain still have the need of fulfilling their life-goals and without ill-intent, take over a host in order to do just that. You will also find those that committed suicide quickly recycled as the result of regret and wishing to make things right; usually though, suicides must face certain thresholds that can prove daunting, especially when it comes to the age and issues that caused them to check-out previously. Ironically, there are times when suicide isn't a karmic negative, such as when honor is involved/martyrdom.

This is an area where reincarnation gets sticky in that there are numerous factors that permit step-ins vs. proper recycling as noted earlier. The simple explanation is that most are underdeveloped souls that refuse to evolve. Proof of this can be seen when you look at how many people cling to the dogma of organized religion vs. a personal level of spiritual focus and growth.

Sorry Craig, but you're missing the issue I'm actually zeroing in on which is how particular souls get matched up with particular bodies, how it is decided which soul goes in which body, how the soul knows where to go, how the soul knows when to go, etc.

It's a massive coordination project, especially if you add in all the other life forms out there!

Arouet wrote:Sorry Craig, but you're missing the issue I'm actually zeroing in on which is how particular souls get matched up with particular bodies, how it is decided which soul goes in which body, how the soul knows where to go, how the soul knows when to go, etc.

It's a massive coordination project, especially if you add in all the other life forms out there!

In a word, KARMA

Your karma will decide physical & mental traits, gender, sexuality, parentage as well as who you'll actually be raised by, where you are born and at what station culturally you'll be born into as well as the region (nationality, state/Provence & community).

While it does seem to be a huge operation management wise, I tend to believe it to be far simpler logistically than we're generally able to see; mainly because we no long have the narrow sense of understanding and focus that we have when incarnated -- our eyes and comprehension "opens" and everything simply flows into place. The problem is when we cling to our carnal belief system and jump back in, as I said earlier.

What I'm trying to zero in on is how a deceased soul gets into the next body: how do they get matched up. How is it determined that recently deceased Johnny goes into Cindy's womb rather than recently deceased Peter? How do they get there? How do they know when to go?

Jayhawker30 wrote:I'm imagining Karma as like a natural system. Think flowing rivers, whirling air masses. That kind of stuff.

Well put. . . Arouet is being too linear with his thinking I believe; trying to rationalize something that's a bit "beyond" literal explanation. . . other than to say that it is an energy efficient management system that our consciousness or soul-self, whatever you wish to call it, works WITH most of the time.

There's a story about a noted Indian mystic and a Catholic Priest that was investigating the mans work. They happened onto a young woman that was seriously deformed when the priest arrogantly challenged the guru to heal her. Instead, the gurus grabbed the arm of the priest and laid his hand upon the young woman; as the priest would later relate, he saw the young lady's acquired karma over several lifetimes all within a brief few seconds. Once the time had lapsed and the guru let go, he looked at the Priest and asked, "What right have I to rob this soul of it's karmic obligations?"

"Healing" takes place on a number of levels, not always in the carnal manner we "want" or believe things should be. As with the parent that must allow the child to get burnt here and there in order to learn, so too the guru must allow certain people to "suffer" so they can grow and mature. Sometimes that suffering means being born into a diseased body or else, enduring a tragic accident in latter life that results in deformation and contortions or even being imprisoned with one's own mind, unable to outwardly express themselves.

ONE OTHER THING. . . when it comes to the conditions under which we are born, it is all part of our agreement with the Master Guides & Teachers. In other words, we choose to be born into a certain kind of physical form and existing in a particular environment; it's not a curse or punishment but rather a means by which we are allowed to consciously (while on the spirit plane) chose a path that will help bring balance to our existence.

Craig Browning wrote:Well put. . . Arouet is being too linear with his thinking I believe; trying to rationalize something that's a bit "beyond" literal explanation. . . other than to say that it is an energy efficient management system that our consciousness or soul-self, whatever you wish to call it, works WITH most of the time.

I wasn't offering that as my opinion, it's what you seemed to be suggesting.

Whether you think its too linear or not if reincarnation is true then there must be some mechanism for deceased souls to get transferred to new ones.

ONE OTHER THING. . . when it comes to the conditions under which we are born, it is all part of our agreement with the Master Guides & Teachers. In other words, we choose to be born into a certain kind of physical form and existing in a particular environment; it's not a curse or punishment but rather a means by which we are allowed to consciously (while on the spirit plane) chose a path that will help bring balance to our existence.

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So is it the master guides and teachers who direct this stuff from the other side? You can handwave it away but even spiritual questions have practical issues to address. No matter what way you cut it there is an organizing job that must be done, whatever your particular version of karma, or rebirth, etc. Soul a still has to get to body X.

Yes, there is a management system but it is not akin to a assembly plant. The Teachers help you review your past lives and understand the karma you've earned both, positive & negative. They help you decide what advantages & disadvantages will help you bring balance to your karmic account when born into your next lifetime. The Guide is a sub-manager of sorts, that helps you refine these conclusions and brings you together with the other people, places & things you have a karmic connection to and it is how YOU and the others involved to come together with an agreement to fulfill certain roles in this next lifetime. Every single step of the preparation is YOUR DECISION not some forced thing, YOU choose the path and container that will start things out by understanding what it is you need to work on and bring into balance; it really is self-creation.

The "Management" mechanism you are looking for does not exist in the sense that you are probably trying to make fit, it's far more fluid and passive than that. The Teachers & Guides are those who evolved from the monad to the higher levels of consciousness and what most writers refer to as "Love", they only exist to help us see the greater picture when it comes to life and spiritual obligations as well as our obligations on the carnal plane. It is based on that information that WE CHOOSE the body, race, culture, etc. it's really not that complicated.

Actually, is it complicated. How do we go about choosing which bodies will fit the path and container we're looking for? Out of the millions of babies being conceived/born how do we or the teacher identify which one will meet our needs (and that's only if we're talking humans, if we add the animal/insect/bacteria kingdoms its immeasurably larger!)

How do you get away from it being one huge bureaucratic mess? Honestly, it doesn't look like you've thought about this part because you keep on sidestepping it.

Arouet wrote:Actually, is it complicated. How do we go about choosing which bodies will fit the path and container we're looking for? Out of the millions of babies being conceived/born how do we or the teacher identify which one will meet our needs (and that's only if we're talking humans, if we add the animal/insect/bacteria kingdoms its immeasurably larger!)

How do you get away from it being one huge bureaucratic mess? Honestly, it doesn't look like you've thought about this part because you keep on sidestepping it.

I don't know what to say, I've told you at least three times now. You're just complicating things in your own head by thinking . . . by looking at it from the carnal point of view vs. seeing how it all comes together in a tailor-made manner involving are fairly small group of individuals (comparatively). It doesn't require the huge assembly line & logistic process you're trying to superimpose on it.