Mormon leases buck harvest rules???

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If you're aging by plaque, you need to read up on aging. I suppose you're talking ENAMEL, which is the white portion of the tooth. Plaque (and tarter) would be found at the base of the tooth near the gum line

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Yep you're right, that's what I meant. As you can tell, I'm definitely not a dentist haha.

The mormon biologist is great. I submitted the jaw bone of the same deer and got 2 different ages (I did that on purpose, I know the guys an idiot and was just having fun). I would also rub the teeth on the concrete under the skinning rack and my deer where always 6.5yrs old. The lease we were on when from seeing 20-50 deer a hunt to maybe seeing 3-4 in the matter of a few years. They do not put hunting first, instead they half *** a cow operation and just wait until its time to develop the land for shopping centers and houses.

What you're going to find if you try to find scientific research that lays out how a doe contributes to antler growth is a bunch of internet articles by people with agendas that don't actually provide cites to studies to back up their assertions. Make no mistake, X or Y deer management scheme is a dogma for many people and information that contradicts X or Y is usually not acknowledged or discussed. Many of the articles I've seen for particular management schemes are written more like political propaganda pieces where instead of presenting all sides of an issue with contradictory evidence, only one view is taken and conflicting evidence isn't acknowledged and opposing views aren't given a fair discourse. The goal for many internet hunting articles on the topics aren't to scientifically and objectively figure out what the truth is, but to simply convince you as the reader to believe whatever the author wants you to believe.

The closest thing you're going to find is a few studies like I posted in my previous post that suggest that does may contribute to antler size, but its not conclusive and very much open to debate.

The actual studies are more conclusive that the health of the doe seems to have a big effect on the antler development of yearlings. The health of the dam may even effect antler size late into life, which is fascinating and suggests that a buck's early development may have a big influence on what he becomes later in life, which would have implications as to just how far we go to improve nutrition for yearlings.

Does contribute to antler development, I don't know what type of a study your looking for but it's not even debatable. Research these deer farmers growing those freaks and see if the put any stock in the doe or if any old doe will do. They absolutely do put stock in it. Both males and females carry all the genetic markers of a species, how those markers interact with each other is quite and different story, as far as dominant resseive and so on. Make no mistake does contribute to antler characterists. I guess you figure since they don't have them they wouldn't have the code on the genetic sequence, which is simply not true. The size of a **** is as likely as not derived from the mom, and how bustful a girl is, is as likely as not based on the dad. Just because a trait is particularly male, or female does not mean that trait isn't on the genetic code of the other sex. No debate.

It will be all academic when those deer farms bring in some of those super doe and buck genetics illegally to grow all kinds of freaks and to supply bucks to hunt behind the fence. And guess what? One will carry the cwd prion! You don't think it will happen. Check all the states that have it. That's how they got in. Florida already has prosecuted people bringing in deer without notifying the state. It's just a matter of time. It won't come from hunters bringing in deer parts. It will come from the captive deer industry.

the health of the doe seems to have a big effect on the antler development of yearlings. The health of the dam may even effect antler size late into life, which is fascinating and suggests that a buck's early development may have a big influence on what he becomes later in life, which would have implications as to just how far we go to improve nutrition for yearlings.

Recent research into epigenetic effects of nutrition are revealing that good nutrition over multiple generations can have a profound impact on the ability of an animal to reach its genetic potential. Poor nutrition over generations (think Florida's native forage) basically can "lock up" an animal's ability to express it's genetic potential even if it has good nutrition throughout its life. The genes may be there to be more but it takes several generations on a high nutrition plane to allow them to be fully expressed. Fascinating stuff.

Does contribute to antler development, I don't know what type of a study your looking for but it's not even debatable...Make no mistake does contribute to antler characterists. I guess you figure since they don't have them they wouldn't have the code on the genetic sequence, which is simply not true.

If its beyond debate, then please cite the research papers you are aware of that outlines what genes or what percentage of genes does contribute to antler size. Remember pro QDM websites that are just stating conclusions without citations are not research papers. That's just propaganda, sort of like the deer hunter's version of Fake News.

At this state, the kind of research that would be required to make the doe gene question "beyond debate" doesn't exist. Not yet. It probably will one day soon.

I'm not assuming does do not contribute to antler genes nor that if they don't, its because they lack antlers. I'm pointing out that science just doesn't know what if any genes does contribute to antler size. They may contribute some genes, all the genes, or none of the genes. Its unknown. There's some clues that might point one way or the other. But the existence of clues just means its a debatable mystery, the opposite of what being "beyond debate."

Crash course in practical genetics. What parents contribute to which traits vary from species to species. For example, in some species, the males contain genes that restrict body size to a certain max size. In other species, its the females that contribute said genes. That creates interesting results with species are hybridized in certain combinations where each parents lack the growth restrictor genes. See the liger as an example of what happens when you cross two species where the male on one side and the female on the other controls growth. A liger is a male lion and female tiger cross. In both species, the males are larger than females. But who contributes the genes that control growth is different between the cats. In lions the female limits body size, and in tigers its the males that does so. So cross a male lion and a female tiger, you get a cat with almost unrestricted growth because neither parent contributes the restrictive genes that limits the overall body size. The opposite combination, a tigon, creates a normal sized cat.

Crash course in practical genetics. What parents contribute to which traits vary from species to species. For example, in some species, the males contain genes that restrict body size to a certain max size. In other species, its the females that contribute said genes. That creates interesting results with species are hybridized in certain combinations where each parents lack the growth restrictor genes. See the liger as an example of what happens when you cross two species where the male on one side and the female on the other controls growth. A liger is a male lion and female tiger cross. In both species, the males are larger than females. But who contributes the genes that control growth is different between the cats. In lions the female limits body size, and in tigers its the males that does so. So cross a male lion and a female tiger, you get a cat with almost unrestricted growth because neither parent contributes the restrictive genes that limits the overall body size. The opposite combination, a tigon, creates a normal sized cat.

Please "cite" your facts on your practical course in genetics, remember published facts on the internet are not hard science, they are kind of like hunters version of fake news, Which is kind of like Trump's attempt to convince people to not believe what is clear and present right in front of them.

While your at it, show me the hard science that proves bucks genetics contribute to antler growth.

Please site your facts on your practical course in genetics, remember published facts on the internet are not hard science, they are kind of like hunters version of fake news, Which is kind of like Trump's attempt to convince people to not believe what is clear and present right in front of them.

While your at it, show me the hard science that proves bucks genetics contribute to antler growth.

You didn't seriously just make a statement on genetics based on crossbreeding?!?!!??!!? Which sex is responsible for the sterility in a mule?!
You can't gather any information on the workings of same species genetics when breeding animals from different species. And yes that's not debatable.

How, or what kind of facts could I have that would substantiate my claim. If common sense awareness of gene traits doesn't do it, I don't know what would. You folks are entitled to believe whatever makes you feel good.

go fertilize some trees this off season, put out some minerals. I am surprised this has not been talked about as it is the single most imp thing to antler development. Ask your lease mgr's what are the doing to enhance the land, chances are nothing. Shooting off full grown bucks isnt deer management.

Recent research into epigenetic effects of nutrition are revealing that good nutrition over multiple generations can have a profound impact on the ability of an animal to reach its genetic potential. Poor nutrition over generations (think Florida's native forage) basically can "lock up" an animal's ability to express it's genetic potential even if it has good nutrition throughout its life. The genes may be there to be more but it takes several generations on a high nutrition plane to allow them to be fully expressed. Fascinating stuff.

Hell most be freezing over!

This thought process even bolsters Binellishtrs claims about nutrition having more to do with antler development than possibly genetics!

I happen to trend this way as well. While there may be the occasional great Florida buck to be bragged on, it's the exception rather than the rule due to generally poor nutritional values in Floridas soils and browse. On a side note it sounds like ol gator4ever might be watching em "grow and stall" more now than ever before...

While there may be the occasional great Florida buck to be bragged on, it's the exception rather than the rule due to generally poor nutritional values in Floridas soils and browse. .

Speak only for your part of FL my friend. There are deer killed every year up here that never makes it to the interwebs. I'm talking deer you would swear came from prime Ga or farther North. I know of 2- 12's a 10 and an 8 killed right here around me that would make you go :hairraiser :hairraiser :hairraiser All killed in the last 2 weeks chasing. I will agree most of Fl doesn't produce big deer like around here.

Boy, this thread really got derailed. Sorry for being one of the ones to do it OP.

Common Sense can't be bought, taught or gifted, yet it is one of the few things in life that is free, and most refuse to even attempt to possess it. - Miguel Cervantes

They will be different than Deseret's harvest guidelines but will follow the same basic concept of using antlers characteristics that help focus harvest pressure on older bucks and minimize harvest of young bucks.

Do you anticipate having much lower requirements than Deseret or similar? Buck and Doe harvest tags going down even more than the past few years? Some of your leases are definitely shooting every two year old 8 point every year, so higher restrictions could be good for them. But who will enforce it? If the leaseholder doesn't then no one will ever know accurate #'s.

As to antler size, the bucks in Glades county can grow very nice antlers if allowed to live past 3 years. I have seen a dead 140+ this year and there are several 125+ killed every year. That is about consistent with the best bucks in all but a few small areas in Florida. Some Lykes leases have even higher restrictions than the base Lykes 8 point rule and it does not seem to have caused any six point or missing brow issues as a result.

Most of those under 8 point Mizzell deer must be pretty young because I have seen some pictures of beautiful big dead bucks from your lease. If all those six point bucks are really 175+ pound, 4 year olds then I look forward to seeing the pictures of them dead next year under the new rules.

FINALLY ! A subject I am an expert in. Without boring everyone, genetic has a lot to do with antler size. As does every other external factor. IE...nutrition, micro minerals, habitat, etc. I think everybody is kind of correct . I tell my guests when hunting, If you see a buck with a weird rack, knock it down. I don't want that boy passing on his genetics. Also, let the young deer walk. Let them mature. You will never know their potential if you live by "if it's brown, it's down." If you want meat, take a big doe. Let the young bucks go. Bottom line.. tons of factors involved in growing big racks. Genetics is probably the most important. Diet second.

“Is it just habitat or nutrition, or is there something at a deeper level that we just haven’t been able to detect? Having the deer genome sequenced will enable us to get at that now,” he told listeners.

Another management option being used more and more in Texas that has not really been studied intensively and certainly not at a molecular level is the replacement of native deer with “better” deer, better in this case typically being bigger-bodied and bigger-antlered deer.

He reminded listeners that overall, a lot of the differences seen in the deer population today may not be due to differences in the genes themselves.

I agree..the HEALTH of the herd..nutrition, mineral content in soil and AGE SEEM to be primary drivers BUT Genes from both Parents contribute to the offspring's genetic makeup which *could* effect every aspect of appearances. You have siblings that are Monsters and Runts from the same parents...it's how you mix the soup.

BUT if you want Big/Big Antlered deer..it wouldn't hurt to have animals WITH those characteristics in you gene pool