RoxtarRyan:Hey, because some asshats in our country do stupid shiat, I have to deal with dumb farking warning labels over every goddamn thing I buy stating the complete obvious (don't use toasters in the bathtub, don't let children play with plastic bags, etc. etc.). We look out for our own, prevent the dumb from doing dumb shiat, and when they do end up doing dumb shiat (and they always do), we back each other up to help each other out and maybe see what we can do to prevent it from happening again.

He got his warning label. There's a damn travel advisory from the Secretary of State that says:

"The Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens about travel to North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or DPRK). Travel by U.S. citizens to North Korea is not routine, and U.S. citizens crossing into North Korea, even accidentally, have been subject to arbitrary arrest and long-term detention. Since January 2009, four U.S. citizens have been arrested for entering North Korea illegally, and two U.S. citizens who entered on valid DPRK visas were arrested inside North Korea on other charges. This replaces the Travel Warning issued for North Korea on September 11, 2012, and it reminds U.S. citizens about the serious risks involved in traveling to the DPRK....Foreign visitors to North Korea may be arrested, detained, or expelled for activities that would not be considered criminal outside North Korea, including involvement in unsanctioned religious and/or political activities (whether those activities took place inside or outside North Korea), unauthorized travel, or unauthorized interaction with the local population. North Korean security personnel may regard as espionage unauthorized or unescorted travel inside North Korea and unauthorized attempts to speak directly to North Korean citizens. North Korean authorities may fine or arrest travelers for exchanging currency with an unauthorized vendor, for taking unauthorized photographs, or for shopping at stores not designated for foreigners. It is a criminal act in North Korea to show disrespect to the country's former leaders, Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung, or to the current leader, Kim Jong Un....Since the United States does not maintain diplomatic or consular relations with North Korea, the U.S. government has no means to provide normal consular services to U.S. citizens in North Korea. The Embassy of Sweden, the U.S. Protecting Power in the DPRK capital of Pyongyang, provides limited consular services to U.S. citizens traveling in North Korea who are ill, injured, arrested, or who have died while there. The U.S.-DPRK Interim Consular Agreement provides that North Korea will notify the Embassy of Sweden within four days of an arrest or detention of a U.S. citizen and will allow consular visits by the Swedish Embassy within two days after a request is made. However, the DPRK government routinely delays or denies consular access. "

RoxtarRyan:RexTalionis: Warlordtrooper: RexTalionis: Warlordtrooper: I would consider this an act of War. The US government should not be so willing to let an American citizen suffer at the hands of a foreign government.

Why? He's an idiot who put himself in danger, against all common sense and the advice of the State Department. Why should we start a international incident over him?

Because He's a US citizen, THAT'S WHY.

So? He assumed the risk when he decided that he can saunter over into a country that is hostile to us with no consequences.

Hey, because some asshats in our country do stupid shiat, I have to deal with dumb farking warning labels over every goddamn thing I buy stating the complete obvious (don't use toasters in the bathtub, don't let children play with plastic bags, etc. etc.). We look out for our own, prevent the dumb from doing dumb shiat, and when they do end up doing dumb shiat (and they always do), we back each other up to help each other out and maybe see what we can do to prevent it from happening again. You can't pick and choose which of your people have rights and protections provided by the government and who don't. Someone who goes and tries to murder a child-raping psychopath has the same protections offered to him as a nun does. If either of them fark up, hey, we do what we can to help them out, because that is what we farking do. We are happy to do it for people we like, and we suck it up for people who "deserve it". We stand as one, with the brilliant scientists and leaders, and scumbag shiatheads.

Period.

Cue the 'they knew the risks. Let 'em crash' guy. Seriously, let the CIA get their own guy back.

RexTalionis:He ignored the warning label. We have no obligation to help him.

Well, I unfortunately disagree with the Dept. of State, then. I find it bullshiat that, yes, even though someone will be dumb enough to wander there, we throw up our hands and refuse to do anything for our citizens, letting them sit in Best Korea for years in hard labor lockup. But, a lot of shiat about the way our government runs pisses me the hell off, so that really isn't any different than how I feel any other day of the week.

I personally prefer to stay away from countries who have a seething hatred of the US. Peace, love and helping mankind aside, it's too easy to have that kind of work viewed by "The State" as a crime. Which in Best Korea, might just be seen that way since they like to keep their people starved, stupid and utterly paranoid.

I'm a little bit skeptical about visiting certain countries that don't utterly hate us because of the way they dole out punishment in response to breaking laws, even though I'm pretty law abiding (as far as US laws are concerned).

AgentBang:I personally prefer to stay away from countries who have a seething hatred of the US. Peace, love and helping mankind aside, it's too easy to have that kind of work viewed by "The State" as a crime. Which in Best Korea, might just be seen that way since they like to keep their people starved, stupid and utterly paranoid.

I'm a little bit skeptical about visiting certain countries that don't utterly hate us because of the way they dole out punishment in response to breaking laws, even though I'm pretty law abiding (as far as US laws are concerned).

RoxtarRyan:Well, I unfortunately disagree with the Dept. of State, then. I find it bullshiat that, yes, even though someone will be dumb enough to wander there, we throw up our hands and refuse to do anything for our citizens, letting them sit in Best Korea for years in hard labor lockup. But, a lot of shiat about the way our government runs pisses me the hell off, so that really isn't any different than how I feel any other day of the week.

Well, then you go and rescue him.

The rest of us don't think it's a worthwhile expenditure of our money or political capital.

This is such a joke. The US not only has deplorable prison conditions, they offer nothing in the form of deterrents for future crimes that even comes close to 15 years of hard labor. Not to mention that they have an awful habit of falsely imprisoning their own citizens - nevermind the countless foreign citizens they are holding illegally.

..as for my personal feelings on the matter, no special envoys this time. That would fly in the face of what we've been trying to accomplish this current tantrum.

As I see it, best case scenario is he is released through normal diplomatic means. Worst case, we unfortunately have to abandon him. Heck, even a special forces extraction would be preferable to capitulation in the form of sending anyone remotely high profile as an envoy.

RexTalionis: He got his warning label. There's a damn travel advisory from the Secretary of State that says:

The article says that he entered the DPRK either as a tourist or tour operator. Meaning, atleast based on this article, he didn't sneak in, but rather applied through their system to come in legally. Further the article mentions that he came in prior times with no problems.

It is also probable based on our past history with the DPRK that the arrest is based on some trumped up charge so they can have another political hostage. "Spying" is probably anything under the sun in North Korea. It's not like he's being charged with smuggling drugs or murder.

As for a travel advisory, so what? The US has travel advisories on lots of countries that Americans visit for business. BFD. I used to do quite a bit of business travel, and if the state I was visiting decided to detain me, I sure as hell would like my govt to atleast take some bare minimum interest in my welfare.

It is one of the functions of our state department (and diplomatic services abroad) AND I DO pay taxes as a citizen, as this guy I assume is, so I'm not so sure why exactly you are peachy keen on abandoning a US citizen abroad.

I have always wanted to travel to North Korea. I find the whole idea of their world fascinating. Obviously I would never go under the current rhetoric, but before boy-wonder took over a year ago it seemed to be at least feasible... Now, none so much.

SirEattonHogg:As for a travel advisory, so what? The US has travel advisories on lots of countries that Americans visit for business. BFD. I used to do quite a bit of business travel, and if the state I was visiting decided to detain me, I sure as hell would like my govt to atleast take some bare minimum interest in my welfare.

It is one of the functions of our state department (and diplomatic services abroad) AND I DO pay taxes as a citizen, as this guy I assume is, so I'm not so sure why exactly you are peachy keen on abandoning a US citizen abroad.

The problem here, however, is that this happens to be a country we don't have diplomatic relations with.

SirEattonHogg:The article says that he entered the DPRK either as a tourist or tour operator. Meaning, atleast based on this article, he didn't sneak in, but rather applied through their system to come in legally.

From The Independent:

North Korea's state media and the US government have released little information on Bae, but his friends, colleagues and South Korean activists specialising in North Korean affairs said he is a Christian missionary based in a Chinese border town who frequently made trips to North Korea to feed orphans there.

RexTalionis:RoxtarRyan: Hey, because some asshats in our country do stupid shiat, I have to deal with dumb farking warning labels over every goddamn thing I buy stating the complete obvious (don't use toasters in the bathtub, don't let children play with plastic bags, etc. etc.). We look out for our own, prevent the dumb from doing dumb shiat, and when they do end up doing dumb shiat (and they always do), we back each other up to help each other out and maybe see what we can do to prevent it from happening again.

He got his warning label. There's a damn travel advisory from the Secretary of State that says:

"The Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens about travel to North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or DPRK). Travel by U.S. citizens to North Korea is not routine, and U.S. citizens crossing into North Korea, even accidentally, have been subject to arbitrary arrest and long-term detention. Since January 2009, four U.S. citizens have been arrested for entering North Korea illegally, and two U.S. citizens who entered on valid DPRK visas were arrested inside North Korea on other charges. This replaces the Travel Warning issued for North Korea on September 11, 2012, and it reminds U.S. citizens about the serious risks involved in traveling to the DPRK....Foreign visitors to North Korea may be arrested, detained, or expelled for activities that would not be considered criminal outside North Korea, including involvement in unsanctioned religious and/or political activities (whether those activities took place inside or outside North Korea), unauthorized travel, or unauthorized interaction with the local population. North Korean security personnel may regard as espionage unauthorized or unescorted travel inside North Korea and unauthorized attempts to speak directly to North Korean citizens. North Korean authorities may fine or arrest travelers for exchanging currency with an unauthorized vendor, for taking unauthorized photographs, or for shopping at ...

When I was in Korea (Near Seoul) I went up on a day trip to the DMZ. We had to sign a waiver basicly saying "If you do anything stupid and cause the Norks to snatch you across the boarder, you're on your farking own because we're not coming to save your sorry ass" They made it abundently clear we were not to talk to them, wave, gesture (you know how) or even look at them if we could help it.

RexTalionis:SirEattonHogg: The article says that he entered the DPRK either as a tourist or tour operator. Meaning, atleast based on this article, he didn't sneak in, but rather applied through their system to come in legally.

From The Independent:

North Korea's state media and the US government have released little information on Bae, but his friends, colleagues and South Korean activists specialising in North Korean affairs said he is a Christian missionary based in a Chinese border town who frequently made trips to North Korea to feed orphans there.

MNguy:RexTalionis: SirEattonHogg: The article says that he entered the DPRK either as a tourist or tour operator. Meaning, atleast based on this article, he didn't sneak in, but rather applied through their system to come in legally.

From The Independent:

North Korea's state media and the US government have released little information on Bae, but his friends, colleagues and South Korean activists specialising in North Korean affairs said he is a Christian missionary based in a Chinese border town who frequently made trips to North Korea to feed orphans there.

RexTalionis:MNguy: RexTalionis: SirEattonHogg: The article says that he entered the DPRK either as a tourist or tour operator. Meaning, atleast based on this article, he didn't sneak in, but rather applied through their system to come in legally.

From The Independent:

North Korea's state media and the US government have released little information on Bae, but his friends, colleagues and South Korean activists specialising in North Korean affairs said he is a Christian missionary based in a Chinese border town who frequently made trips to North Korea to feed orphans there.

rosebud_the_sled:Anyone stupid enough to travel through NK thinking that it is without risk of some sort of random governmental action is a moron and deserves what they get. If they understand that it is with risk, well then, they should just accept it when the dice don't roll in their favor and their estimation of the risk was flawed.

Good thing he's a Christian, because then he knows that God generally punishes the stupid, so he should be OK with his situation.

MythDragon:When I was in Korea (Near Seoul) I went up on a day trip to the DMZ. We had to sign a waiver basicly saying "If you do anything stupid and cause the Norks to snatch you across the boarder, you're on your farking own because we're not coming to save your sorry ass" They made it abundently clear we were not to talk to them, wave, gesture (you know how) or even look at them if we could help it.

Ah, yeah. I remember that waiver from when I took the tour back in '83. The whole DMZ area was pretty creepy, and serious business all around. And it appears that tradition of US/South Korean troops holding hands (when opening the Norks entrance to the "International Talks Room" to prevent being pulled over into North Korea is still going strong.

I kinda regret that I didn't take the opportunity on the tour to go stand on that side of the room so I could later say that "I have been in North Korea."

RoxtarRyan:RexTalionis: Warlordtrooper: RexTalionis: Warlordtrooper: I would consider this an act of War. The US government should not be so willing to let an American citizen suffer at the hands of a foreign government.

Why? He's an idiot who put himself in danger, against all common sense and the advice of the State Department. Why should we start a international incident over him?

Because He's a US citizen, THAT'S WHY.

So? He assumed the risk when he decided that he can saunter over into a country that is hostile to us with no consequences.

Hey, because some asshats in our country do stupid shiat, I have to deal with dumb farking warning labels over every goddamn thing I buy stating the complete obvious (don't use toasters in the bathtub, don't let children play with plastic bags, etc. etc.). We look out for our own, prevent the dumb from doing dumb shiat, and when they do end up doing dumb shiat (and they always do), we back each other up to help each other out and maybe see what we can do to prevent it from happening again. You can't pick and choose which of your people have rights and protections provided by the government and who don't. Someone who goes and tries to murder a child-raping psychopath has the same protections offered to him as a nun does. If either of them fark up, hey, we do what we can to help them out, because that is what we farking do. We are happy to do it for people we like, and we suck it up for people who "deserve it". We stand as one, with the brilliant scientists and leaders, and scumbag shiatheads.

Period.

Bottom line is your dad should not have been doing missionary work in NK when repeatedly told not to.

RoxtarRyan:RexTalionis: Warlordtrooper: RexTalionis: Warlordtrooper: I would consider this an act of War. The US government should not be so willing to let an American citizen suffer at the hands of a foreign government.

Why? He's an idiot who put himself in danger, against all common sense and the advice of the State Department. Why should we start a international incident over him?

Because He's a US citizen, THAT'S WHY.

So? He assumed the risk when he decided that he can saunter over into a country that is hostile to us with no consequences.

Hey, because some asshats in our country do stupid shiat, I have to deal with dumb farking warning labels over every goddamn thing I buy stating the complete obvious (don't use toasters in the bathtub, don't let children play with plastic bags, etc. etc.). We look out for our own, prevent the dumb from doing dumb shiat, and when they do end up doing dumb shiat (and they always do), we back each other up to help each other out and maybe see what we can do to prevent it from happening again. You can't pick and choose which of your people have rights and protections provided by the government and who don't. Someone who goes and tries to murder a child-raping psychopath has the same protections offered to him as a nun does. If either of them fark up, hey, we do what we can to help them out, because that is what we farking do. We are happy to do it for people we like, and we suck it up for people who "deserve it". We stand as one, with the brilliant scientists and leaders, and scumbag shiatheads.

Period.

We certainly can pick and choose who has rights and protections. The person who leaves our country is no longer protected by our country. It is really, really simple. If you go into a foreign country and commit a crime, it doesn't matter whether you are American or not. Sure, we might have an ambassador try to help you out, but that's it. Marrying a 12 year old girl is legal in some middle-east countries, but if a visitor to our country tried to consummate that marriage here in the U.S would you be happy with his country sending commandos over here to pull him out of jail? Would you be happy if their ambassador talked us into letting him go back to his own country?No.

He went to THEIR country and broke THEIR laws. It is extraordinarily simple.

Also, I don't think we should protect the stupid by putting a label on peanuts saying they might contain peanuts. And the guy who goes to murder a child-rapist does NOT have the same protections as a nun, since he is committing a crime.

umad:JesusJuice: Tell them they can return our citizen or we can send a hellfire missile up Kims ass. And mean it.

Or better yet, we could tell them that they can keep him and do whatever the fark they want with him. If you want to travel through shiatholes like NK or Iran, or do something retarded like attempt to sail around the world on an innertube then you deserve whatever happens to you.

FraggleStickCar:rosebud_the_sled: Anyone stupid enough to travel through NK thinking that it is without risk of some sort of random governmental action is a moron and deserves what they get. If they understand that it is with risk, well then, they should just accept it when the dice don't roll in their favor and their estimation of the risk was flawed.

Good thing he's a Christian, because then he knows that God generally punishes the stupid, so he should be OK with his situation.

Well, you seem like a delight.

People who speak the unvarnished truth are often not a blast at parties.