JCoz wrote:Doesn't change the fact that in recruiting, Tress was on an UPWARD trajectory post 2005, basically the opposite of what you are saying here.

Coz, not to be a prick, although I've decided to be one today, but I don't give a flying fuck about recruiting service ratings. I agree with Meyer as to how you evaluate a recruiting class.Ray Charles could see the talent level at tOSU dropped the past 4 - 6 years since the mid oughts. Probably even Tree could see it.

Last edited by jb on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

danwismar wrote:Funny though, how you seem to take some run of the mill observations and turn it into people asserting Tressel's insufferable awfulness or the sycophantic fellating of the new lord and master ...or whatever. Don't get that.

JCoz wrote:Fact is that on paper, Tressel's 08-11 Classes beat the pants off his earlier recruiting, and this would have been an outstanding class as well, not much lower at all than where Meyer is sitting.

Impact? Shit, there are more guys who will be out of the league next year than there are starters in that list...

Jake Ballard might be the best of the bunch, and isnt on that list because...well, I think we all know why.

Loved Tress, but JB is spot on. A great start to his career at tOSU followed by slippage that was covered up by the worst stretch of combined UM and PSU football in...maybe ever...there was nobody but the middle feeders to challenge anymore, and by the end they were.

JCoz wrote:Hence the "lull". Remember that the lull here is a product of recruiting classes that are not very recent, and cover some of his worst rated classes.

Explain this past season.

Let's pretend that Tategate never happens for a second here.

Without any suspended players, this team was likely to go undefeated in this poor year for the Big Ten, probably undefeated.

You'd likely have seen Posey, Pryor, Adams, and Brewster all selected in the first 2 rounds this year.

I might arm rassle yah on Peezy as pro or Brewster at C

So 4 senior players, all on offense, make the dif between undefeated and a losing season in a mediocre BCS conference? Even if I were to agree (didja SEE that defense?)dDoesn't that make a statement about the overall state of recruiting?

I know good football teams. Wasted a lot of my life watching. This group wasn't 4 players short of undefeated.

I would disagree with JB in that I think Heyward and Wells are "impact" guys, (as is Jenkins) and Hartline is having a much better NFL career than I thought he could/would. But the rest are really borderline NFL talents, you must admit.

You are absolutely right about one thing you said earlier though. You can have all the databases in the world, and it comes down to relationships, and how well the coach can talk to Mom in the prospect's living room. I will say that nobody I have ever seen was as good at that as Tressel was. Maybe Woody.

Now, that matters to some kids, and not to others...so it has an impact on the type of kid you can recruit. Tressel, IMO, raised the level of "person"...I mean character...of the kids Ohio State was getting. I have no doubt that level may suffer a bit in the years to come ...strictly because he's gone, and the priorities will be different under the new regime.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

So 4 senior players, all on offense, make the dif between undefeated and a losing season in a mediocre BCS conference? Even if I were to agree (didja SEE that defense?)dDoesn't that make a statement about the overall state of recruiting?

I know good football teams. Wasted a lot of my life watching. This group wasn't 4 players short of undefeated.

I'm not saying they will be good Pro's I was more talking about where they'd be drafted.

And no we weren't 4 players short, we were 4 players and a HC short.

Big difference, but also moot point. It really just doesn't matter at this Point. Meyer is a better coach and recruiter, I dont want it twisted that I'm aruguing otherwise.

Last edited by JCoz on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I would disagree with JB in that I think Heyward and Wells are "impact" guys, and Hartline is having a much better NFL career than I thought he could/would. But the rest are really borderline NFL talents, you must admit.

You are absolutely right about one thing you said earlier though. You can have all the databases in the world, and it comes down to relationships, and how well the coach can talk to Mom in the prospect's living room. I will say that nobody I have ever seen was as good at that as Tressel was. Maybe Woody.

Now, that matters to some kids, and not to others...so it has an impact on the type of kid you can recruit. Tressel, IMO, raised the level of "person"...I mean character...of the kids Ohio State was getting. I have no doubt that level may suffer a bit in the years to come ...strictly because he's gone, and the priorities will be different under the new regime.

danwismar wrote:Funny though, how you seem to take some run of the mill observations and turn it into people asserting Tressel's insufferable awfulness or the sycophantic fellating of the new lord and master ...or whatever. Don't get that.

Yes you do. It's because hard core college football **fans are sycophantic fellaters of a program and its current coach. Or so I have argued for as many years as we've both been here.

It is now Lord Meyer's turn to unzip.

You can disagree with me but there's zero need to play ignorant to what I mean or why I said it. I'm not at all ashamed to continue to say it. Like I said, look at your twitter timeline and tell me there isn't copious knob swallowing all over the place.

The vast majority of fans and people who six months ago were fellating Tressel, singing at his front door, citing his hospital visits and ready to throw themselves in front of a train for him are now lubing up for Urban after washing their hands of Tressel's remains.

Same type of people who were crying on JoePa's curb and who will defend him to their death. Same shit, different campus.

Not saying it's all or any of the folks here. Most people here have some sense. But when I see links or what have you to this kind of stuff, I think of the masses and their willingness to kneel.

JCoz wrote:Fact is that on paper, Tressel's 08-11 Classes beat the pants off his earlier recruiting, and this would have been an outstanding class as well, not much lower at all than where Meyer is sitting.

Sorry Coz...gotta call BS on that one. They weren't in the Top 20 on November 28.

With no Meyer, there is no Schutt, no Spence, probably no Pittman, no Dodson, no Williams or Reeves, no Perkins, no Decker.

Just no.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

danwismar wrote:Funny though, how you seem to take some run of the mill observations and turn it into people asserting Tressel's insufferable awfulness or the sycophantic fellating of the new lord and master ...or whatever. Don't get that.

Yes you do. It's because hard core college football fans are sycophantic fellaters of a program and its current coach. Or so I have argued for as many years as we've both been here.

It is now Lord Meyer's turn to unzip.

You can disagree with me but there's zero need to play ignorant to what I mean or why I said it. I'm not at all ashamed to continue to say it. Like I said, look at your twitter timeline and tell me there isn't copious knob swallowing all over the place.

The vast majority of fans and people who six months ago were fellating Tressel, singing at his front door, citing his hospital visits and ready to throw themselves in front of a train for him are now lubing up for Urban after washing their hands of Tressel's remains.

Same type of people who were crying on JoePa's curb and who will defend him to their death. Same shit, different campus.

Not saying it's all or any of the folks here. Most people here have some sense. But when I see links or what have you to this kind of stuff, I think of the masses and their willingness to kneel.

If that offends or is tiresome, I apologize.

It is less offensive than tiresome. ;-)

Look, I was critical of Tressell in the past. You can't make up that I wasn't. people went ape shit on me. J Coz made about 5 posts arguing otherwise just now.

JCoz wrote:Fact is that on paper, Tressel's 08-11 Classes beat the pants off his earlier recruiting, and this would have been an outstanding class as well, not much lower at all than where Meyer is sitting.

Sorry Coz...gotta call BS on that one. They weren't in the Top 20 on November 28.

With no Meyer, there is no Schutt, no Spence, probably no Pittman, no Dodson, no Williams or Reeves, no Perkins, no Decker.

Just no.

Dan I was projecting a fantasy land where tatgate never happened making that comment.

I would disagree with JB in that I think Heyward and Wells are "impact" guys, (as is Jenkins) and Hartline is having a much better NFL career than I thought he could/would. But the rest are really borderline NFL talents, you must admit.

You are absolutely right about one thing you said earlier though. You can have all the databases in the world, and it comes down to relationships, and how well the coach can talk to Mom in the prospect's living room. I will say that nobody I have ever seen was as good at that as Tressel was. Maybe Woody.

Now, that matters to some kids, and not to others...so it has an impact on the type of kid you can recruit. Tressel, IMO, raised the level of "person"...I mean character...of the kids Ohio State was getting. I have no doubt that level may suffer a bit in the years to come ...strictly because he's gone, and the priorities will be different under the new regime.

I'm fine with that argument. I get it. But for a high school kid it's secondary IMO. They hear 30 players in 4 or 5 years in the NFL and they recognize a program where NFL talent is gathering and developing.

Yes, helps even more when you can rattle off first round picks or Pro Bowlers, but if you're a program that has 30+ guys in the NFL who came from one college coach/recruiter than that carries some impact.

And Tressel did that. And he did it with Holmes and Gamble and the FLA kids as well as the majority of kids from Ohio who had a choice.

Is Meyer better? Yes. But again, I think you're talking BMW vs Mercedes more so than Kia vs Jaguar.

That's all I'm saying. And it seems like people are quick to forget it or demean the dude that's no longer got his name on the door.

JCoz wrote:Fact is that on paper, Tressel's 08-11 Classes beat the pants off his earlier recruiting, and this would have been an outstanding class as well, not much lower at all than where Meyer is sitting.

Sorry Coz...gotta call BS on that one. They weren't in the Top 20 on November 28.

With no Meyer, there is no Schutt, no Spence, probably no Pittman, no Dodson, no Williams or Reeves, no Perkins, no Decker.

Just no.

Dan are you saying that had tatgate not happened at all that this wouldn't have been one of tressels better classes?

JCoz wrote:Fact is that on paper, Tressel's 08-11 Classes beat the pants off his earlier recruiting, and this would have been an outstanding class as well, not much lower at all than where Meyer is sitting.

Sorry Coz...gotta call BS on that one. They weren't in the Top 20 on November 28.

With no Meyer, there is no Schutt, no Spence, probably no Pittman, no Dodson, no Williams or Reeves, no Perkins, no Decker.

Just no.

Dan are you saying that had tatgate not happened at all that this wouldn't have been one of tressels better classes?

He's saying it would have been scUM's class. Take what you will from that.

peeker643 wrote: And it seems like people are quick to forget it or demean the dude that's no longer got his name on the door.

That make sense?

It does. And it is especially true because they've now got the Mercedes in the driveway. I imagine the nostalgia for Tressel would be orders of magnitude greater if we were going into 2012 with Tim Beckman or some other unproven schlub.

That said, it wasn't all fellatio of the Vest for 10 years. Don't know about your Twitter timeline, but mine was full of people who were frustrated as hell for years, and were highly critical...even mocking...of Tressel...for all of his perceived flaws as a coach. Takes all kinds.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

JCoz wrote:Fact is that on paper, Tressel's 08-11 Classes beat the pants off his earlier recruiting, and this would have been an outstanding class as well, not much lower at all than where Meyer is sitting.

Sorry Coz...gotta call BS on that one. They weren't in the Top 20 on November 28.

With no Meyer, there is no Schutt, no Spence, probably no Pittman, no Dodson, no Williams or Reeves, no Perkins, no Decker.

Just no.

Dan are you saying that had tatgate not happened at all that this wouldn't have been one of tressels better classes?

Well...of the guys I listed above, only perhaps Dodson and Pittman would have been in it. And Kalis...which surely would have helped. So...subtract two 5-stars and four 4-stars from what they got. And add Kalis. I give up. Who knows?

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

No. Because you got all extreme and shit. You can't throw down that we are knob goblin', literally, with extreme prejudice and then back walk to a point of reason like as if you were making the same point all along. Thats bogus.

Tress was a good recruiter and a good coach. Folks like J Coz could go Scott Farkas on my arm and I might say "very good". I maintain he was slipping from his apex.

No. Because you got all extreme and shit. You can't throw down that we are knob goblin', literally, with extreme prejudice and then back walk to a point of reason like as if you were making the same point all along. Thats bogus.

Tress was a good recruiter and a good coach. Folks like J Coz could go Scott Farkas on my arm and I might say "very good". I maintain he was slipping from his apex.

Meyer is great thus far.

NM- My next post sums it up without treading toward being too personal.

peeker643 wrote:Call me a diva but I ain't living in that world of denial.

Delusion... denial... complete fabrication. Whatever term works for the illusion you are creating where former Tressell supporters = We Are State Perv retards ...

Edit - But this has been my fav thread since When White Trash Bench Presses, so its all good.

Not you. Not Dan. Not JCoz, not anyone specifically here. But if you truly believe Penn State could happen only at Penn State and that that reaction by admin and students isn't the norm as opposed to the exception then I think you're bat shit crazy.

That would happen just the same at OSU, USC, Oklahoma, FSU, etc.

And so would minimizing the abilities/contributions/strengths of an outgoing Lord in order to promote the new Lord.

danwismar wrote:Well...of the guys I listed above, only perhaps Dodson and Pittman would have been in it. And Kalis...which surely would have helped. So...subtract two 5-stars and four 4-stars from what they got. And add Kalis. I give up. Who knows?

I think its very hard to project because the trouble started last season, but McMullen might have been in the class, def pittman. I dont think Dodson.

But you really can't go much beyond the early vibes because the disruption was so early on, but I clearly think the class would have been in great shap by Nov 28, far better than it was. I see no reason to think it wouldn't have been top 10.

No. Because you got all extreme and shit. You can't throw down that we are knob goblin', literally, with extreme prejudice and then back walk to a point of reason like as if you were making the same point all along. Thats bogus.

Tress was a good recruiter and a good coach. Folks like J Coz could go Scott Farkas on my arm and I might say "very good". I maintain he was slipping from his apex.Meyer is great thus far.

peeker643 wrote:Call me a diva but I ain't living in that world of denial.

Delusion... denial... complete fabrication. Whatever term works for the illusion you are creating where former Tressell supporters = We Are State Perv retards ...

Edit - But this has been my fav thread since When White Trash Bench Presses, so its all good.

Not you. Not Dan. Not JCoz, not anyone specifically here. But if you truly believe Penn State could happen only at Penn State and that that reaction by admin and students isn't the norm as opposed to the exception then I think you're bat shit crazy.

That would happen just the same at OSU, USC, Oklahoma, FSU, etc.

And so would minimizing the abilities/contributions/strengths of an outgoing Lord in order to promote the new Lord.

It just does.

Everywhere.

That's my entire point.

I will maintain that Perv State was a peculiar institution and helped create the perfect storm, in part due to its isolation, but that's another thread.

I just want to know who all of a sudden was knocking Tress to prop up Meyer, and how this whole tangent started. Cause all I'm seeing is one man's philosophy creating a struggle that early doesn't exist throwing out random and wild baseless accusations.

peeker643 wrote:Call me a diva but I ain't living in that world of denial.

Delusion... denial... complete fabrication. Whatever term works for the illusion you are creating where former Tressell supporters = We Are State Perv retards ...

Edit - But this has been my fav thread since When White Trash Bench Presses, so its all good.

Not you. Not Dan. Not JCoz, not anyone specifically here. But if you truly believe Penn State could happen only at Penn State and that that reaction by admin and students isn't the norm as opposed to the exception then I think you're bat shit crazy.

That would happen just the same at OSU, USC, Oklahoma, FSU, etc.

And so would minimizing the abilities/contributions/strengths of an outgoing Lord in order to promote the new Lord.

“I was pleased to take part in a productive, regularly scheduled meeting of the Big Ten Conference coaches today in Chicago. We had an opportunity to discuss a number of issues with each other and conference staff, including those that have arisen this week. It should be noted that my coaching staff is in full compliance with our recruiting efforts, and no one on this staff did anything illegal or unethical. We will continue to comply with NCAA rules and recruit with relentless effort, especially the great state of Ohio.

“I want to thank Commissioner Delany for his insight and leadership, and at this point we all look forward to moving past this week and getting ready for the start of spring football.”

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

“I was pleased to take part in a productive, regularly scheduled meeting of the Big Ten Conference coaches today in Chicago. We had an opportunity to discuss a number of issues with each other and conference staff, including those that have arisen this week. It should be noted that my coaching staff is in full compliance with our recruiting efforts, and no one on this staff did anything illegal or unethical. We will continue to comply with NCAA rules and recruit with relentless effort, especially the great state of Ohio.

“I want to thank Commissioner Delany for his insight and leadership, and at this point we all look forward to moving past this week and getting ready for the start of spring football.”

“I was pleased to take part in a productive, regularly scheduled meeting of the Big Ten Conference coaches today in Chicago. We had an opportunity to discuss a number of issues with each other and conference staff, including those that have arisen this week. It should be noted that my coaching staff is in full compliance with our recruiting efforts, and no one on this staff did anything illegal or unethical. We will continue to comply with NCAA rules and recruit with relentless effort, especially the great state of Ohio.

“I want to thank Commissioner Delany for his insight and leadership, and at this point we all look forward to moving past this week and getting ready for the start of spring football.”

Translation:

Nice try crybabies.

I'm going for two to top 70 on your also ran asses as soon as the talent allows.

peeker643 wrote:Call me a diva but I ain't living in that world of denial.

Delusion... denial... complete fabrication. Whatever term works for the illusion you are creating where former Tressell supporters = We Are State Perv retards ...

Edit - But this has been my fav thread since When White Trash Bench Presses, so its all good.

Not you. Not Dan. Not JCoz, not anyone specifically here. But if you truly believe Penn State could happen only at Penn State and that that reaction by admin and students isn't the norm as opposed to the exception then I think you're bat shit crazy.

That would happen just the same at OSU, USC, Oklahoma, FSU, etc.

And so would minimizing the abilities/contributions/strengths of an outgoing Lord in order to promote the new Lord.

It just does.

Everywhere.

That's my entire point.

I will maintain that Perv State was a peculiar institution and helped create the perfect storm, in part due to its isolation, but that's another thread.

I just want to know who all of a sudden was knocking Tress to prop up Meyer, and how this whole tangent started. Cause all I'm seeing is one man's philosophy creating a struggle that early doesn't exist throwing out random and wild baseless accusations.

Not necessarily knocking Tress JB. But minimizing what he did. You said, good recruiter, or whatever. I think he was great at it. End of day I think Lee got it right. I think what e0y2e3 said is dead nuts on and that's beyond the credit you're willing or able to give the guy. And I think now that hes gone it's easy to do exactly what you did.

And that drives me nuts. Not about you specifically, about everyone willing and able to do it.

And yeah...I violently disagree that the PSU thing is a PSU issue. I truly believe it would happen at any number of places.

To lesser extents it's already happened at Louisville, Boston College, Colorado and LSU. Not with kids, but with coverups and a whole lot of CYA. That it happened in State College is stunning, I agree.