Originally Posted by JDR13
Well if 1 time in jest means usually in your universe, then yeah…guilty as charged.

Regarding the Odyssey Engine, I must admit I didn't know that. Can you point to somewhere that explains that a little more in depth?

Well, you tend to point out that it's "just your opinion" quite often, but I guess I can't document it without an extensive search, so I'll let it rest

To me, that's pretty redundant as it could never be anything except an opinion - but whatever floats your boat.

There was a time when I cared about Bioware - and I followed development of their engine both on console and PC quite closely.

After they stopped using the Infinity engine, they developed the Aurora engine and IIRC, it was specifically developed for Neverwinter Nights - and it had certain limitations based on the toolset nature of that game.

All the other engines they've developed have been evolutions of the Aurora engine, adding one or two "significant" features and giving it a new name. Even Dragon Age is based on that ancient architecture if I'm not mistaken.

To me, all their games since KotOR have a very similar feel in terms of how you explore and move around. Even Mass Effect has it, even though it uses a completely different engine.

They're what I'd call "rigidly linear" - which is an advantage when you don't want to confuse people, but it's not an advantage if the player wants a more freeform experience.

The Witcher seems to suffer from a similar approach, but they obviously wanted a larger more free-roaming world. So, as you said, they had to work within the limitations of the engine. I'm not sure that was the smart way to go about it - but the game was a pretty big hit, so I guess it worked.

I think they made the right decision with TW2 and TW3 - by going with an engine that's much more in-line with their intended vision for the game design.

Personally, I think TW1 would have been a more pleasant experience if they'd realised the limitation of the engine and not worked against its strengths.

The areas are too large and detailed for the engine - which is probably also why it originally had massive load times. I remember giving up very quickly at release - because it was rather extreme, what with the going back and forth.

The way every single room has to be loaded and "prepared" was a huge obstacle.

Obsidian had the same problem with NWN2 - which has obscene load times for some of the areas.

I'm with Dart on this one; the Witcher did have some pretty appalling level design. It was even worse if you were familiar with Bioware's engine from making NWN mods. You could not only see the wires, but also the stagehands, the food wrappers from lunch, the guy talking on the phone in the background, etc.

It's not alone in that, though. KotOR was just as jarring (with added minigames someone's kid threw together!), and a lot of games made with commonly used engines probably feel like that to people who use them.

Yeah, I know there's not much difference between those engines.. that much was always obvious. I just wanted to see you attempt to Google something that was in line with what you stated. I do love yanking your chain sometimes.

Originally Posted by Menigal
I'm with Dart on this one; the Witcher did have some pretty appalling level design. It was even worse if you were familiar with Bioware's engine from making NWN mods. You could not only see the wires, but also the stagehands, the food wrappers from lunch, the guy talking on the phone in the background, etc.

It's not alone in that, though. KotOR was just as jarring (with added minigames someone's kid threw together!), and a lot of games made with commonly used engines probably feel like that to people who use them.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Yeah, I know there's not much difference between those engines.. that much was always obvious. I just wanted to see you attempt to Google something that was in line with what you stated. I do love yanking your chain sometimes.

It's all in good fun though.

Sure you did and you got me real good as always

I find it particularly amusing with you, because you'd rather die than admit being wrong or saying something reasonable.

So, I guess we're good entertainment for each other. At least on occasion

Originally Posted by JDR13
How was the level design "appalling" exactly? I'm just curious.

It sounds like you're implying the engine has a lot to do with it.

See Dart's comments about running around, awkward linear paths, etc. It's been years since I played it, so I can't give you more than my remembered impression. One thing that really sticks out in my memory, apart from the above, is a fairly tough boss fight that came right after several meaningful conversations without any opportunity to save in between, so that losing that battle meant going through all of those dialogue trees again. There's just no excuse for that.

Being made in an engine that so many people used just made it easier to see how it was all put together, and then inevitably raised the question of why they built it that way. It felt like I was playtesting a NWN mod, but I suppose people who didn't spend any time doing that won't have felt the same way.

Originally Posted by Menigal
See Dart's comments about running around, awkward linear paths, etc. It's been years since I played it, so I can't give you more than my remembered impression. One thing that really sticks out in my memory, apart from the above, is a fairly tough boss fight that came right after several meaningful conversations without any opportunity to save in between, so that losing that battle meant going through all of those dialogue trees again. There's just no excuse for that.

Yeah, the sudden battles after conversations was something that annoyed me in both of the Witcher games not just TW1. The running around never bothered me that much though. I'll have to see how I feel about it when I do my replay.

I'd say those things are more due to quest design rather than the levels though.

To be fair, it's not really that uncommon to have cutscenes before major battles - and, again, Bioware is very guilty of having that as well.

There are several tough battles in Mass Effect with incredibly annoying cutscenes leading up to them, that you can't quite skip. One is a "cinematic sequence" at the major "droid fight" just before entering the complex on that planet where you find Liara. On that very same mission, right before the end - there's another annoying cutscene where you can only fast-foward some of the dialogue.

While it's INCREDIBLY stupid and annoying, I can't say The Witcher is alone in having it.

I know there are plenty of more modern examples, I just can't remember them right now.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
While it's INCREDIBLY stupid and annoying, I can't say The Witcher is alone in having it.

I know there are plenty of more modern examples, I just can't remember them right now.

No, sadly, this is pretty common. I just remember this one being particularly annoying due to the length of the conversations (not cutscenes, but important conversations). We're in an era where player convenience is playing an ever-decreasing role in game design and this is just another symptom.

I was thinking of playing the first Witcher game next, but now I'm having some second thoughts.

Right now I'm still playing Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines and finding it an amazing game. It really is one of the best games I've ever played. I'm at the endgame now after about 40 hours. Very interesting game.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
How about a link? Does it do away with the problems I specifically mentioned? As in, the quest design and absurd amount of traveling back and forth?

FCR and RotWW don't change the quest design afaik. Here is the main mod list I used when picking stuff.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
"People" - as in people that fit with your skewed perception of what people have been saying?

No, "people" as in the majority of reviews I've read about the game and the majority of comments I've read about it (here and elsewhere). The only real issue I personally ever had with the game was the reuse of dungeons and the customization of gear on companions. It had clean and responsive combat, decently written and voiced story, and an alright play length (counting the two story DLCs). But, like here, every time I mention anything positive about it, people get hostile.

I can count on one hand the number of people that had positive thoughts on the game. Not really surprised though. It's a lot more common for someone to bitch about something being horrible or praise it for being awesome than to talk about it being "OK".

Considering the kind of games that come out lately with shitty voices, shitty animation, shitty controls, and shitty story. I found this refreshing. But, I guess I'm in the minority on this stuff…like my opinion on Skyrim and other ES games being boring as shit.

—-

Back on topic…I gave up on W1 just couldn't put myself through it. Finished XCom+Exps and I guess now I'm going to try Bloodlines again..if I can manage it. If we grind through enough games..eventually DA:I will be out =P

Originally Posted by HordeQ
No, "people" as in the majority of reviews I've read about the game and the majority of comments I've read about it (here and elsewhere). The only real issue I personally ever had with the game was the reuse of dungeons and the customization of gear on companions. It had clean and responsive combat, decently written and voiced story, and an alright play length (counting the two story DLCs). But, like here, every time I mention anything positive about it, people get hostile.

You do realise that your opinion about the game isn't the objective truth, right?

Because the way you're describing your opinion about the combat, it seems you're trying to make it out to be how everyone should feel.

Personally, I thought the combat was entirely ruined by the way enemies spawned out of nowhere, eliminating the tactical aspect of the game - which was done so well in the first Dragon Age.

As a result, most battles felt chaotic and unsatisfying to me.

The story was awful and the characters mostly a joke, but then again - I despise the "TV show" style they were going for. That interrogation introduction sequence made me cringe something awful.

So, what you bring up as "positives" are not really positive to me.

That doesn't mean you're wrong or that I'm right - but it does mean that we think differently and we need different things to feel satisfied.

Obviously, if you insist on believing this is an opinion I've constructed out of spite, that's your choice. But it's not going to help you understand other people.

I can count on one hand the number of people that had positive thoughts on the game. Not really surprised though. It's a lot more common for someone to bitch about something being horrible or praise it for being awesome than to talk about it being "OK".

Personally, I've always felt being honest is the easiest way to communicate by far.

But that's me.

The game was ok depending on your expectations. If you didn't expect a sequel that honored the first game, it might well have been ok.

But I really liked Dragon Age - and I was shocked at how different Dragon Age 2 was. Well, perhaps not shocked - but I reacted accordingly.

If you look at it in a vacuum and you pretend it's not actually called Dragon Age 2 - but Generic Action RPG - then it's passable. Isn't that ok enough for you?

Considering the kind of games that come out lately with shitty voices, shitty animation, shitty controls, and shitty story. I found this refreshing. But, I guess I'm in the minority on this stuff…like my opinion on Skyrim and other ES games being boring as shit.

Allow me to respond with a quote from you:

It's a lot more common for someone to bitch about something being horrible or praise it for being awesome than to talk about it being "OK".