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Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by ashore

that's what I kind of hate about yukimura.

some players he cant beat with regular rallies becuase they keep returning the ball back to him........ so he activates yips to stop them. i mean in long dragged out match yuki will probably win, but he says fck it. YIPS TIME.

Sometimes I feel Yukimura probably already has Saiki and he just activates it and it'd be like "What the heck 2539 rallies? Screw that, yips it is."

Black Aura is NOT A TECHNIQUE. Every single Aura/State in the entire series simply has a boost in base stats which may or may not in effect grant someone the ability to do something (ex: Saiki's boost in Mental grants them enough mind power to accurately predict shots / Hyakuren's boost in power and technique grants the ability to return shots and send them back at twice the power, etc)

As for Tezuka Zone, I do not believe just because Sanada was able to break it that Yukimura could do the same. Sanada is a tank when it comes to power. Yukimura is a full-blooded technician. Yuki does not have the power that comes out of Sanada, so I don't believe he is physically strong enough to be effective with the same method Sanada used. In fact, I think T-Zone is the one technique that would actually give Tezuka the upper hand against Yukimura. Reason being, it is deadly when paired together with Hyakuren and Saiki at the same time (excluding that whole PoP thing Tezuka has now..)

Not even Airgrimes would agree with this.

Black Aura is a buff but the only aura that bothered Yukimura in the original POT was TnK. He dismissed Hyakuren aura as useless (at least without TZone), so we can see by the time NPOT rolls around he no longer can brush off everything he runs into as irrelevent/useless.

If Yukimura can break TZone straight up he wouldn't need to distinguish the difference between Tezuka using Hyakuren and Ryoma using it, since the result would be the same. It's implied that a user of Hyakuren aura is slower and this applies to Tezuka as well, but Tezuka can cover this weakness due to TZone.

At any rate although Hyakuren aura does give him trouble I assume in the long run he'd adjust and follow the same pattern Chitose did versus Hyakuren (basically don't use any strong shots ever).

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

On Yukimura/Tezuka/Sanada topic, I think at the end of PoT, this is the way it is

Tezuka>Yukimura>Sanada>Tezuka

So, pretty much Rock-paper-scissor

Saiki supposely calculated the minimum amount + best way to win the shot. As Chitose do stll use Kamikakushi. Yukimura's Saiki, if he had one, would include Yips.

Doesn't help against Saiki, still. Sanada just happens to have a trump card against Saiki. Saiki is a GREAT aura.

Tezuka got nothing that can deal with yips so Yukimura would beat him easily, as of POT. Yukimura is easily the top player in POT not counting Ryoma's main character immunity. The rock paper scissor relationship would be Tezuka > Atobe > Sanada > Tezuka since their moves are said to specifically counter each other (TZone owns World of Ice, World of Ice owns all of Sanada's moves, Sanada's moves owns Tezuka).

I think Saiki by itself is weaker than Hyakuren because Hyakuren can defeat someone better than you (it's implied in absence of yips Hyakuren aura + TZone can defeat Yukimura), while I suspect if you use only have Saiki and you use it against Yukimura you'll just see that you cannot win, even if he doesn't use yips. Saiki beats Hyakuren but Hyakuren is more useful all-purpose aura. It cleans up equal level/weak opponents just fine and can potentially beat someone better than you, and most importantly it can return unreturnable power shots while Saiki would just tell you 'you can't return this shot because it's too powerful'. You only come out behind if you've only Hyakuren versus a guy who only has Saiki.

Note that in the game against Yukimura, Ryoma stopped using Saiki after he got hit by yips, even though he still has his Hyakuren aura at that point. I think it's safe to say that yips do not stop you from using Saiki but in the state of yips, using Saiki will just tell you that you got no chance of winning.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by Phantron

Tezuka got nothing that can deal with yips so Yukimura would beat him easily, as of POT. Yukimura is easily the top player in POT not counting Ryoma's main character immunity. The rock paper scissor relationship would be Tezuka > Atobe > Sanada > Tezuka since their moves are said to specifically counter each other (TZone owns World of Ice, World of Ice owns all of Sanada's moves, Sanada's moves owns Tezuka).

I think Saiki by itself is weaker than Hyakuren because Hyakuren can defeat someone better than you (it's implied in absence of yips Hyakuren aura + TZone can defeat Yukimura), while I suspect if you use only have Saiki and you use it against Yukimura you'll just see that you cannot win, even if he doesn't use yips. Saiki beats Hyakuren but Hyakuren is more useful all-purpose aura. It cleans up equal level/weak opponents just fine and can potentially beat someone better than you, and most importantly it can return unreturnable power shots while Saiki would just tell you 'you can't return this shot because it's too powerful'. You only come out behind if you've only Hyakuren versus a guy who only has Saiki.

Note that in the game against Yukimura, Ryoma stopped using Saiki after he got hit by yips, even though he still has his Hyakuren aura at that point. I think it's safe to say that yips do not stop you from using Saiki but in the state of yips, using Saiki will just tell you that you got no chance of winning.

Yips kick in because you thought you can't hit a ball past Yukimura. Echizen was making points too late. If Tezuka used Saiki+Hyakuren from the beginning, he won't lose a point, thus, Yips won't even kick in.

Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

why do people still insist rallies are needed for yips to kick in?

i thought puri pair states yuki controls yips at will and no rallies are needed to activate?

EDIT : i recall puri pair says... people watching the tennis match close to yukimura also felt the yips. meaning ralliees aren't needed. the tennis audience never rallied with yuki and still felt yips.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by ashore

i thought puri pair states yuki controls yips at will and no rallies are needed to activate?

EDIT : i recall puri pair says... people watching the tennis match close to yukimura also felt the yips. meaning ralliees aren't needed. the tennis audience never rallied with yuki and still felt yips.

The thing that comes closest to what you're saying is:

Quote:

Yukimura's strength by itself causes those around him to inadvertently tense up.

That doesn't mean they all go blind or deaf though. If you recall, nobody in the audience felt anything during the national finals, Kintarou had to explain the feeling he had to the rest of his team.

Assuming he can activate it at will, why didn't he do it against Ryoma right away? In order to win the championship, that would have been the safest way. And if you're saying it's because Ryoma didn't give him any trouble until he activate Hyakuren, why did he use it against Sanada at all? Yukimura cleanly returned all of Sanada's techniques without any issues, and on top of that he wanted to enjoy playing that day (which would mean, as long as he isn't cornered, he wouldn't want to activate it at all).

I think from what we've seen so far, it's implied that he can't activate it whenever he wants.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by Phantron

It's not clear if Sanada scored a point when he first got the black aura or did it happen later but the score is either 3-1 or 4-1 after Sanada used Black Aura.

No. Sanada got that one point because of Black Aura.
After Black Aura, he is able to walk back to his baseline. When before the Black Aura he couldn't move around.
So he wasn't yipped, but Yuki took points off of him. Sanada could not take Yips off of Yuki without Black Aura.
Everything I have said here is factual.

Originally Posted by Phantron

That said at that point Sanada clearly hasn't quite figured out how the aura works so you can't expect him to fully break out of yips. All the aura proves is that something can break out of yips (otherwise he wouldn't score a point), and that there are things Yukimura do not understand (he fears the aura). In his POT final boss status he'd just say: "That aura is useless!" and counter it, but in NPOT it shows there are techniques/buffs/whatever that Yukimura cannot just counter at will.

Sanada was completely out of yips. He walked away casually. After Yuki says ''THought I could have fun playing tennis today'' the next page we see Yuki win the tie-break and Sanada hand Yuki his ball and leave. He was not under Yips at all.
No matter which way you look at it.

Originally Posted by Phantron

Prior to yips, Sanada and Yukimura are still on the first point until Sanada finally failed to return a point due to yips. Now, this shows Yukimura is one of the top rally guys but this doesn't mean he is THE top. There's no indication that, in the absence of yips, why Sanada can't keep the rally going forever. Looking at the physique presumably Sanada even has better endurance, and we also got guys who can rally for 40 minutes at once (Ryoma/Kintarou).

After this, we find out Yukimura thought he was just having fun.
Another thing is that outside of Yips, at 4-1, Yukimura takes all points from there. Sanada couldn't take a point off of Yuki without Black Aura.
So really, if the game had gone on longer, its quite clear that Yuki would be the one to be taking more points. Its clear as day.
Sanada didn't show he could take points off of Yuki without Black Aura.

Originally Posted by Phantron

Atobe is another classic endurance player. While there's no indication they can score a point off Yukimura, there's alos no indication Yukimura can score a point off these guys without yips. So you'd just get into an endurance match and one would have to assume that can't possibly be his strong point since he just had a major surgery and all that at least compared to the mega endurance guys.

Actually, if Irie was taking points off of Atobe casually in rallying, I don't think taking points off of Atobe is such a big thing.
It's defending AK that should take work.

Originally Posted by Phantron

Yukimura can't flat out hit through Tezuka Zone. Otherwise, he'd simply say: "Hyakuren aura is useless" and skip the whole Tezuka part. If he can hit through Tezuka Zone effortlessly, it'd make no difference whether it was Ryoma or Tezuka that's using the Hyakuren aura.

I agree with this. But who has TZ+Hyakkuren besides Tezuka?
Who has Hyakku Ren - Whole Body besides Ryoma?
So its not like its a general thing in taking points for players.

Originally Posted by Phantron

We know from his description that the Hyakuren aura's weakness is that it slows you down since you're concentrating all your aura on your hand. If he's immune to Tezuka Zone, then you'd expect the exact same outcome if he played Tezuka compared to Ryoma. Yet Yukimura specifically said that Ryoma is not yet at the level of Tezuka, implying that the outcome would be different against Tezuka.

Yeah, I agree that it should have given him trouble and Yips would probably be the key.

Originally Posted by Phantron

Now of course Yukimura as is isn't going to lose to Tezuka (national finals level) either, but Hyakuren aura + TZone = threat to him. We can see when Ryoma overcome the speed issue Hyakuren aura was giving him problem.

Yips kick in because you thought you can't hit a ball past Yukimura. Echizen was making points too late. If Tezuka used Saiki+Hyakuren from the beginning, he won't lose a point, thus, Yips won't even kick in.

Not necessarily, Fuwa may have taken points off of Yuki.
Taking points off of Yuki isn't the decisive thing from Yips. You could still get Yipped by Yuki.
It's something that is nearly impossibe to defend against.

I reckon Konomi will have only the VERY TOP TIER players be able to play against Yips. I reckon Ryoga, Tokugawa, Oni, Irie, Byoudouin and Tanegashima will be the only possible HSers who can play Yuki and force him into a corner after making Yips not work.
Of the MSers, Ryoma, Sanada are the only guys we can know can push Yuki into a corner after making Yips not work.

I think Saiki by itself is weaker than Hyakuren because Hyakuren can defeat someone better than you (it's implied in absence of yips Hyakuren aura + TZone can defeat Yukimura), while I suspect if you use only have Saiki and you use it against Yukimura you'll just see that you cannot win, even if he doesn't use yips. Saiki beats Hyakuren but Hyakuren is more useful all-purpose aura. It cleans up equal level/weak opponents just fine and can potentially beat someone better than you, and most importantly it can return unreturnable power shots while Saiki would just tell you 'you can't return this shot because it's too powerful'. You only come out behind if you've only Hyakuren versus a guy who only has Saiki.

It may be more useful but think about it from weak looking guy like Chitose's view. Surely his Saiki will find a way to break Power shots, for instance, being able to hit to corners side-to-side so Power Swings are sealed or something.
I think Saiki can be even more effective than Hyakku Ren.

It's true.
With Black Aura, it could be a 7-5 or 6-4 win going either way.
Since after the Black Jersey have returned, we've been shown that maybe Yips can get you regardless of either winning or losing points.

And also, we are yet to see Yuki pushed into a corner like in the Nationals Finals against TMnK!Ryoma without being up against Plot Power.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

Not necessarily, Fuwa may have taken points off of Yuki.
Taking points off of Yuki isn't the decisive thing from Yips. You could still get Yipped by Yuki.
It's something that is nearly impossibe to defend against.

That's Upgraded Yips in SPoT. It's probably not clear on my post, but I'm talking about strictly about end of PoT stands between the top 3 men that doesn't include Ryoma, with the "trigger" activation being what people guess it is. Obviously this change in SPoT.

And I do believe Fuwa definitely get point off Yukimura, so you're right on that.

Fuwa hit a ball, and stand, talking. That means he DID not move. Yukimura was not in moving motion either. This means,

-Fuwa hit a ball and gets a point.
-Fuwa hit a ball and either Fuwa or Yukimura stop the ball in midair by some super ultra magic trick that isn't known to mankind so that he and Yukimura can do an awesome pose before continuing with the ball flying in midair.

Oh, and for Eiji's interview in Pair Puri, doesn't Yukimura use Yips to take away Eiji's taste? But I'm not too sure how seriously you should take that, as it is just a joke.

Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

That doesn't mean they all go blind or deaf though. If you recall, nobody in the audience felt anything during the national finals, Kintarou had to explain the feeling he had to the rest of his team.

Assuming he can activate it at will, why didn't he do it against Ryoma right away? In order to win the championship, that would have been the safest way. And if you're saying it's because Ryoma didn't give him any trouble until he activate Hyakuren, why did he use it against Sanada at all? Yukimura cleanly returned all of Sanada's techniques without any issues, and on top of that he wanted to enjoy playing that day (which would mean, as long as he isn't cornered, he wouldn't want to activate it at all).

I think from what we've seen so far, it's implied that he can't activate it whenever he wants.

fair justification

that's just it, in the manga and an they dont focus on the what teh audience is experiencing.

at first i thought yuki emits an aura and pepole around him may feel the affects of yips, but it seems
like a directed technique. it does beg the question... why dont yuki just yips an opponent before the
match starts?

It might be true that you might need to rally to activate yips.
I'm more curious how long he had this ability. was it because he had that yips like disease and is
able to project it out towards someone after overcoming his personal trauma? or did he always have this.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by ashore

I'm more curious how long he had this ability. was it because he had that yips like disease and is
able to project it out towards someone after overcoming his personal trauma? or did he always have this.

It's not specified, but I would guess it's just something he always had.

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

In POT, the yips is not something Yukimura himself has control over. He says stuff like: "It appears you lost your sense of touch." If he was the one activating it why would he say a thing like that? It'd just be "I took away your sense of touch."

At any rate the whole notion of yips as some effect from intimidation is pretty bogus, because Fuwa was not at all intimidated by Yukimura. With Hyakuren + Saiki Ryoma was firmly in control of the fight to the point he can predict when he'll win, so why would he suddenly get scared by Yukimura who obviously can no longer return everything he's hitting?

By NPOT it seems like Yukimura have more control but in POT he does not, not that it matters since he can return anything so it's really irrelevent when yips kick in. Yips, at least in POT, is something that sort of just happens when you play Yukimura for no apparent reason. It doesn't matter if you were winning or losing, if Yukimura says you got yips, you got yips. The only reason he's not unbeatable in NPOT is that he lost his 'whatever I say is right because I am the final boss' status. That is, we wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like Tokugawa saying, "LOL yips is nothing" because Tokugawa is easily a higher tier character than Yukimura. He wouldn't even need to justify why yips is nothing. It'd simply be nothing because he said so.

But Yukimura enjoys the "I am right because I said so" advantage over every character in the middle schooler level aside from TnK enabled characters, so he won't possibly lose to any of them, at least as of POT.

For Saiki versus Hyakuren, Saiki might help on borderline returnable power shots, but it'll do nothing against obviously unreturnable power shots. Let's say you're Tezuka without TnK and you're up against Duke and he hits a Duke Homerun. If you only use Saiki by itself the only possible solution is 'whoa this is going to hurt'. You can't possibly return that. With Hyakuren you can at least attempt to return it. It's unclear if Hyakuren works on power techs THAT strong, but at least you can try.

For In versus World of Ice, World of Ice is a physical observation, as in 'due to my enhanced eyesight I can see that you standing in this position you cannot possibly get to this, that, and that spot on time." It is not about reading what your opponent plans to. The icicles represents a physical blind spot that is an inherent physical property of the game. Rai's speed wouldn't help becase again the blind spot is somewhere you can't even see so even if you can teleport you still wouldn't know the ball's being hit there at all because you can't even see it. You can argue if you're at Sanada's level who has only one icicle (that's what World of Ice reveals against Zan) maybe if you knew where your own weak spot is then you can teleport there and hit it even though you can't physically see it, but that sort of implies you got World of Ice too to see your own weak spot.

Intuitively you could just start way back by the back wall, and since you're so far back all your blind spots must be outside of the court so Atobe cannot possibly hit to them without losing a point, so he'd be forced to hit somewhere inside the court and you use Rai speed to get back in the court after you see the shot is being hit. That said you'd have to use Rai twice to return World of Ice (first time to get way outside of the court, second time to get back inside the court) so that could get pretty nasty in terms of tradeoffs.

Oh, and for Eiji's interview in Pair Puri, doesn't Yukimura use Yips to take away Eiji's taste? But I'm not too sure how seriously you should take that, as it is just a joke.

He can flat out take away all 5 senses so I don't see why taste is anything more special than anything else. He probably doesn't do it while playing in tennis because that's not a particular relevent sense.

I can just see Yukimura try to take away Fuji's sense of taste and Fuji will be like: "Sorry, but I don't have a sense of taste."

Re: [Semifinals - Team 2 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Yukimura vs Fuji

Originally Posted by Phantron

because Tokugawa is easily a higher tier character than Yukimura.

I don't think there is enough to go by after everybody has had ''general'' improvement that Tokugawa is that much above the MSers.
Think about it, Kite and Marui can now rally with No.7 & 8, so I reckon a general lift in the MSers abilities has happened since the first day or two at the camp.

I don't think Tokugawa is that godly at this stage in the story.
I think the amazing HSers Byoudouin, Tanegashima, Ryoga, Irie, Tokugawa, Oni and Duke aren't too far above the Top MSers right now. Otherwise it wouldn't makes sense to have this G10 thing.