If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

There's a couple reasons that the amendment isn't all that pragmatic any longer.

1. To protect yourself from the gov't, you'd need a stockpile of nuclear weapons greater than the rest of the world combined. When this amendment was written, a bullet didn't even exist.

2. If you really tried to protect yourself today, it would be considered terrorism

3. The amendment protects the rights of "the people" to keep and bear arms without being infringed. However, in practice, certain subsets of the people are prevented from buying guns - mentally ill, criminals, children for example. We've essentially been enforcing this amendment randomly. So why not just say everyone falls into a subset of people considered "idiots" and selectively decide they can't have guns. This is supposed to protect all the people, but it doesn't. We decide some people can have guns and others cant.

4. The amendment is about a militia being necessary for the security of the free State. This is about state's rights vs the federal gov't. Again, my state isn't stockpiling nuclear weapons. Is yours? Do the States still need to protect themselves from the federal gov't by their own militias? It's not pragmatic and won't ever happen.

At the end of the day times change. Technology changes. People change. Things that had meaning for a particular people in a particular time period don't necessarily have meaning for people in a different time period. I think we should try and read the amendments through the lens of the people of the time period in which they were written and extract their meaning through those lenses. And if things are applicable today, great. If not, they're not.

I don't see how the 2nd Amendment makes much sense for us today really. It's nothing that the NRA and gun fans try to tell us it is. I doubt most people have read the Bill of Rights. Here's #2. This makes little sense to me in the context of current society.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

And at the end of the day, even Thomas Jefferson said:

"Strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation."

So I would think that TJ might feel that gun ownership in today's society may not make sense or be the intention of the 2nd amendment. Again, these guys hadn't even seen bullets yet, let alone the stockpiles of weapons of the US military. It's actually quite laughable to consider the states could have their own militias to defend against the US military.

It's quite possible that TJ and others thought very similar to Chadman. And the intent was never what the 2nd amendment has been turned into by the marketing of the NRA. Guns, weapons, military, regulation are huge business in the US. This amendment doesnt protect the people, it protects the vested interests of people that make money selling guns. Fear is one of the best motivators for people to spend money. In a way, this fear has been used to control us all and enslave us to the system. It's become impossible to protect ourselves from the system which was the original point. But we have our guns. And we feel like we're in control. But nothing could be further from the truth. How can a man in fear ever truly live free? Tyranny owns us.

The 2d Admendment is still valid today because we have a legal system that continues to put violent criminals back on the streets and doesn't put them away for life and throw away the key.

Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

Most provocative quote: "Something is wrong here. We are not being made more secure, we are being made more barbaric."

I tend to agree that the results of these laws are making us *less* safe, in terms of deaths and injuries. I do NOT feel safer knowing that the guy with anger management issues at the gas station who thinks I cut him off has a legally concealed firearm on his person. Should I?

Most provocative quote: "Something is wrong here. We are not being made more secure, we are being made more barbaric."

I tend to agree that the results of these laws are making us *less* safe, in terms of deaths and injuries. I do NOT feel safer knowing that the guy with anger management issues at the gas station who thinks I cut him off has a legally concealed firearm on his person. Should I?

And that would be one of the most important questions that need to be asked- does owning guns actually make anyone safer?

This is so ridiculous. A bunch of foreigners debating on U.S. law and how much of our rights we should have. Then more people that obviously have no idea what the stats are on anything. The FACT is that the collector with 500 guns haven't killed ANYONE!!! Name me ONE guy that has shot up a school that was an avid collector. Almost ALL the gun crimes are black on black thugs with stolen pistols NOT guys like me who have many guns.

But obviously many of you guys are content to take away millions of people's rights for nothing.

BTW how many of you have been shot at by a guy that had road rage? Anyone? How many of you have had the collector pull a gun on you? But let's throw away the founding documents because "YOU" are worried about something that has NEVER happened to you. Your "feelings" shouldn't be public policy. Damn people are getting ****ing stupid.

This is so ridiculous. A bunch of foreigners debating on U.S. law and how much of our rights we should have. Then more people that obviously have no idea what the stats are on anything. The FACT is that the collector with 500 guns haven't killed ANYONE!!! Name me ONE guy that has shot up a school that was an avid collector. Almost ALL the gun crimes are black on black thugs with stolen pistols NOT guys like me who have many guns.

But obviously many of you guys are content to take away millions of people's rights for nothing.

BTW how many of you have been shot at by a guy that had road rage? Anyone? How many of you have had the collector pull a gun on you? But let's throw away the founding documents because "YOU" are worried about something that has NEVER happened to you. Your "feelings" shouldn't be public policy. Damn people are getting ****ing stupid.

If it's only "black thugs" killing each other, then "black thugs" should be the only ones that feel the need to get guns to protect themselves. And the rest of us shouldn't need protection.

And if guns the only guns used to kill are stolen guns, then maybe if people didn't buy guns in the first place, the bad guys wouldn't have anyone to steal their guns from.

Maybe you'll never shoot someone. But maybe a criminal or a mentally ill relative or a child will end up with one of your guns?

The founding fathers weren't protecting your rights when they wrote the Constitution. They were the rich guys figuring out how to protect their own vested interests in this country. Now violence, guns, the military has become one of the biggest parts of our economy and we need that's what we're trying to protect in modern society. We have an economy built on fear. Fear for our safety. Fear for our health and well being. Fear that our website might go down during the Christmas shopping season. Fear of China. Fear of terrorism. Fear of immigration. Fear of falling behind in global education. etc.

Businesses exploit those fears. It's why the rich keep getting richer. It's why the middle class is disappearing. It's why we lose real freedoms every day. We give up real freedom to think we're in control with the right to bear arms. Collectively we are a culture of idiocy. Watching America from the outside must be like going to the zoo watching a bunch of animals in a cage. Or maybe we appear more like the guests on a episode of Jerry Springer.

The things we collectively care about are silly. And it's hard to see how silly we are when we're stuck on the inside. Sometimes it's good to get an outside perspective. It can be a fresh reminder that are other silly hobbies like watching the Steelers have as much value as the other things we worry about to pass the time. Because we're all just here for the entertainment until the curtain closes. Might as well enjoy the best entertainment we can while our show's still playing.

This is so ridiculous. A bunch of foreigners debating on U.S. law and how much of our rights we should have. Then more people that obviously have no idea what the stats are on anything. The FACT is that the collector with 500 guns haven't killed ANYONE!!! Name me ONE guy that has shot up a school that was an avid collector. Almost ALL the gun crimes are black on black thugs with stolen pistols NOT guys like me who have many guns.

But obviously many of you guys are content to take away millions of people's rights for nothing.

BTW how many of you have been shot at by a guy that had road rage? Anyone? How many of you have had the collector pull a gun on you? But let's throw away the founding documents because "YOU" are worried about something that has NEVER happened to you. Your "feelings" shouldn't be public policy. Damn people are getting ****ing stupid.

Well, after reading your post, I do agree with your last statement

The fact of the matter is that one person's rights stop where another's begins. Someone's right to not get shot by some idiot who no one in their right mind would think should be carrying a gun, but is ... that right is just as valid as any other - right?

And I haven't been shot by such an idiot, nor has my family. And neither was the mom I read about in today's newspaper, but her four year old girl taking a nap yesterday afternoon was, in the head, and now dead. She was black ... I'm not ... after reading your post I have to ask, does that mean I shouldn't care?

The founding fathers weren't protecting your rights when they wrote the Constitution. They were the rich guys figuring out how to protect their own vested interests in this country.

Pretty jaded view you've got there. As I read their writings and study American history, the evidence I see shows that the founders genuinely cared about the future of this republic, and that they wanted to see it remain free. They understood that for this to happen, they needed to preserve certain rights.

The fact of the matter is that one person's rights stop where another's begins. Someone's right to not get shot by some idiot who no one in their right mind would think should be carrying a gun, but is ... that right is just as valid as any other - right?

And I haven't been shot by such an idiot, nor has my family. And neither was the mom I read about in today's newspaper, but her four year old girl taking a nap yesterday afternoon was, in the head, and now dead. She was black ... I'm not ... after reading your post I have to ask, does that mean I shouldn't care?

PS I is not a foreigner.

My right to own a gun is in the bill of "rights". IF I kill someone then my right stops and I go to jail. It really isn't that hard to understand. I have a right not to get hit by a car or get stabbed. But that doesn't mean that you don't have a right to own a car or own a knife.

There are thousands more people killed by drunk driving. Why not allow the cops just to stop random people without due process and give sobriety tests? Why not let them search without warrants since drugs kill thousands more people than guns?

Gun laws are just to tug on heart strings but they do nothing to actually solve the problem. You can tell this because nobody answered my question about the sinister gun collector who kills people. It sounds terrible for some one to own a lot of guns but the FACTS are that those aren't the people killing anyone. But people want to take away the law abiding citizens right to protect himself while never even touching the real problem.

BTW the founding fathers would have all hanged for treason if they'd lost. Washington could have been King and he single handedly kept the country from falling apart in a speech after the war to a group of congress people that wanted to jettison the new country.

Many of the founding fathers had their families killed and died penniless. Look up Lewis Moore and Phillip Livingston. Most lost their farms, money and families. Obviously people need to stop watching CNN and MSNBC and open a ****ing history book every once in awhile.