The former “Voracious Vegan” is now just “Voracious” (which according to Webster’s dictionary, is a synonym for “greedy, rapacious”.

After 3/1/2 years on a vegan diet, Tasha eats meat and is “moaning with pleasure and joy” (hence the title of my post).

The only appropriate response to this publicity fuelled confession, from Tasha, is ignore it until it goes away. But the online vegan community is small, we like to laugh at the ridiculousness.

My first bite of meat after 3.5 years of veganism was both the hardest and easiest thing I’ve ever done. Tears ran down my face as saliva pooled in my mouth. The world receded to a blank nothingness and I just ate, and ate, and ate. I cried in grief and anger, while moaning with pleasure and joy.

She eats one steak, and instantly her health is miraculously returned (quote: I had only eaten a small piece of cow flesh, and yet I felt totally full, but light and refreshed all at once) Hallelujah! Praise Jesus! Praise Buddha! Praise Allah! Praise Deity Of Your Choice…. Let’s get real

Oh my, tears are running down my face right now, from laughing so hard. I am almost literally rolling on the floor laughing. People in the cafe I am writing this from are looking at me, I haven’t laughed like this for a long time. Is this Tasha woman serious?

What kind of nutritional deficiencies are cured in an instant? Does this sound accurate to anyone?

Here is another, less funny, extract:

I delicately broached the topic of my ill-health with several vegan friends. I even made comments on other blogs and on twitter highlighting my struggles. The response was nothing short of shocking. In the span of just a few days I received an outpouring of emails from fellow ‘vegan’ bloggers, who told me in confidence that they weren’t really vegan ‘behind the scenes’. They ate eggs, or the occasional fish, or piece of meat, all to keep themselves healthy, but were too scared to admit to it on their blogs. I even received emails from two very prominent and well respected members of the vegan AR community. One a published and much loved vegan cook book author, the other a noted animal rights blogger, their emails detailed their health struggles and eventual unpublicized return to eating meat.Vegan No More

She makes a few delicate comments and true celebrities vegans are pouring their inner most secrets out in an email? Does this sound logical to anyone?

People who make their living based on their vegan reputation would risk it all by confessing in an email to someone who is now clearly anti vegan (her quote: “I can no longer think it is wrong to eat animals” shows where her beliefs are).

And if this is true (IF!) name them. Go on, name names. Do not go around making baseless accusations, by throwing around these allegations, everyone is under suspicion.

Maybe that is what she wants. It’s a cheap shot, and I prefer to not believe her.

I do not want to go around suspecting everyone I read to be a pseudo-vegan. That is a Stalinist tactic that does nothing to foster cohesion and a sense of community, in what is otherwise a fragmented and fractious group.

Tasha has now giving up veganism, whatever that meant to her (it sounds like it was purely about diet), and has turned into a “feminist”…….. (Oh feminists – may the goddesses have mercy on your souls that this woman is speaking for you, how long before she decides she is really a patriarch and move on to the next cause de jour)

But on this, the abolitionists, the liberationists and the unaligned, all agree – hahaha, (hint: Tasha, we are laughing at you, not with you).

Vegan No More is great for a laugh, so is the responses, the blog posts, the gossip, the comments. I haven’t seen the vegan community so united in, well – ever!

The whole thing is a gift to the vegan community online, for once we could put aside our petty differences over which we fight so viciously, and get a great laugh at this nonsense, this completely laughably ludicrous self-serving, rambling, incoherent piece of anti-vegan propaganda.

And, while there are so many other things I would say, but I won’t, because I’m not a mean person. Instead, I’ll leave the talking to others. All these articles are well-worth following the links, and reading the original articles, and comments:

* From the dietitianDo Ex-Vegans’ Stories Make the Case Against Vegan Diets? by Ginny Messina
“…….. In her more than 7,000 word post, she’s rather vague about these details, as is Lierre Keith in her book. I do know that a lot of vegans think they are eating healthfully when they really aren’t. And I believe that a lot of vegans get sick and return to eating meat when all they needed was more sound information about vegan diets and less misinformation from the pseudo-scientific anti-vegan world ………”

* Satire perspectiveOmnivore: Fail by Vegan Feminist Agitator
“…….. The path from which I began straying from omnivorism was painful, difficult, heart-wrenching even. People might try to tell me that I did something wrong, that I just didn’t try hard enough, but they are mistaken: I tried with all my being to live as an omnivore……”

* the activistA worthy reply to “Vegan No More”
“……….. I see incredible potential and use for websites, blogs, chats, forums as sources of information, connection points for activists, and means of fast communication. But when things degenerate into repetitive arguments, shit-slinging, defamation and egotistic posturing … well, time to turn off, both figuratively and literally. So that’s all the time I’m giving to this odd internet chapter which will be known as “Vegan No More” (after the ex-vegan’s blog post of the same title)……….”

* the fair and balanced responseA vegan controversy
“……….. My problem stems from her reasoning. My problem stems from her complete reversal to proselytizing that vegans are the ones who are wrong. … My problem stems from her rejection of science in favor of finding a new moral high horse to ride. She no longer believes veganism isn’t right for her or the planet, so you shouldn’t either………”

* the vegan community weighs in
Your Daily Vegan: Vegan Defenders talk back
“…………..Oh, that vegan defector? Defector- is she implying that veganism is as horrible as life in North Korea? The movement she was once such a zealous member of was really just the same as living in a communist dictatorship? She’s a fraud. She’s a once-self-described vegangelist. What cause will she attach herself to next? Apparently the meat-eating cause. ……………”

[Side bar: Tasha claims to have received “death threats”, my response to that is
honey, if you are receiving death threats, that is an issue for the FBI, or since you are living in an artificial oasis in the Saudi Arabian desert (which probably has a much bigger impact on the environment than a few grains, which you complain extensively about), try interpol. If you seriously believe vegans want to kill you, blogging about it doesn’t really convey that seriousness.]

Today, I am going to take a little detour from Animal Rights Activism, and talk about Westboro Baptist Church, and the creative use of non-violent civil disobedience used by some to protect the rights of those targeted by WBC.

Oppression of others is what injustice looks like.

And it does not matter whether it is specism, sexism, agism, classism, racism, these are based on someone making judgments based on what group someone belongs to and deciding their membership of that group makes them “less than”.

Once a group has been decided they are “less than” everyone else, it is easy to remove their rights, because somehow they deserve them.

Injustice is always injustice.

Westboro Baptist Church display no christian values that Jesus would recognise. They spread hate, pure and simple hate.

They picket and protest against the funerals of a whole range of people, that is hard to keep track of just who it is they hate every day.

“I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”Elie Wiesel

But the fight-back has begun. Oklahoma vs. Westboro Baptist Church
Recently in Oklahoma, the Westboro minivan arrived to picket the funeral of f Army Sgt. Jason James McCluskey, the people of McAlester, OK decided they had had enough.

The Westboro protestors they faced off with a massive crowd of jeering and taunting counter-protesters, estimated by the police chief, to be about 1000 people, who only drowned out the Westboro Travelling Road Show of Hatred with jeers and tauts, but also with raucous chants of “USA, USA” (Westboro protesters come up flat)

When they returned to their van, they found there tyres had been slashed – and no one in town would repair them.

Bravo, McAlester.

While, USAmericans will say, they are entitled to their rights of free speech and protest. The families of these deceased military men and women, who die protecting that right, are entitled to bury their loved one in peace.

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.Bishop Desmond Tutu

When members of the Gary Francione’s flock talk about “direct action” the example they use 99 times out of 100 is burning down a building. They say that civil disobedience is neither vegan or animal rights.

However, as these examples from Oklahoma show, civil action can be creative and doesn’t always involve arson.

None are free, until all are free.

(I would imagine living with that kind of hatred against almost everyone day-in and day-out must have some kind of physical effect on the health of these people, carrying around that much anger against the world I would think is really unhealthy.)

Stephen Colbert’s segment “Food for thought” covers a range of topics, from alcoholic energy drinks, and the US government partnering with a pizza chain to add more cheese (and fat) the USAmerican dietVodpod videos no longer available.

Even a proud vegan like Alicia Silverestone gives in to temptation once in a while.

The actress and author of The Kind Diet confessed that sometimes she slips up — and dairy is her downfall.

“If I was at a party and there was a tray of cheese sitting there and I had had drinks, then I might have a bite,” Silverstone confessed to UsMagazine.com at an EcoTools event in NYC on Wednesday.

Silverstone doesn’t let her momentary lapse get to her, though. “It’s human,” she said. “It’s a really good reminder that sometimes you need to have what you remember is this good thing. Because then you have it, and you’re like, ‘Actually that wasn’t better than the recipes in my book,'” Silverstone told Us.

“Being flexible that way makes more people comfortable,” she said. “If I’m rigid about it and I’m perfect, then no one is going to be able to be like me because I’ll be this icey, rigid thing.”

Silverstone credits the vegan diet with better health. “I haven’t been to a doctor in 13 years,” she told Us. “I don’t have to worry about calories, I don’t have to worry about how I look because I know that what I do makes me look my best.”

For a start, I’m not sure there is such a concept as “cheating on a vegan diet” that would make it… um – not vegan!!

Like a virgin who cheats on virginity, gets pregnant and says, but I’m still a virgin, I only cheated a little!

Once we start having the concept of cheese-eating vegans, its a slippery slope til the word “vegan” means anything that people want it to mean.

There already is a perfectly valid word for someone who avoids meat but eats cheese….. VEGETARIAN!

Ever tried to define vegetarian?
A coworker told me once there are two types of vegetarian, those who eat meat and those who don’t, no matter how much I tried to tell her that a vegetarian who eats meat is not a vegetarian in any sense of the word, she would not be swayed…
there is the fish-eating-vegetarians, the fur-wearing-vegetarians, the chicken-and-bacon-eating-vegetarians, the vegetarian-3-days-a-week-and-steak-on-the-rest… the word “vegetarian” has become pretty much useless.

I was out to lunch with friends recently, one who is a vegetarian told the wait staff “I’m a vegetarian, no meat in the stir fry vegetables” it came loaded with prawns. She sent it back.

One of the reasons that the word / concept “vegan” was invented in World War 2 was that vegetarians on got rations for cheese and eggs as replacements for meat, and so began a campaign to be recognised as not consuming animals products. There are many other reasons too, but this was one of the earliest fights for recognition, that a vegan was something separate to vegetarian.

No one stands up when people assume that meat=cow/lamb but not meat=fish/chicken/pig.

The amount of vegetarians who eat fish or chicken or pork/ham/bacon is so strange. And people just accept that it is a sub-set of vegetarian.

So, when people praise Alicia Silverstone for her veganism, do we accept it, and think, but she does so much for her diet book, oops I mean veganism – or do we go, “yes, she might do a lot for animals but she really isn’t vegan herself”.

If it is okay for celebrities to cheat – how big of a celebrity does one have to be? Movies? Magazine covers? Is there like, a slide scale of celebrity A-list and B-list can eat cheese, maybe C-list – but once we hit the D-list celebrities they can’t get away with calling themselves “vegan who eats cheese”? When was vegan redefined as – something you do only when you are a commoner?

And as for Alicia’s comment that she eats cheese when she has a drink… Really, when was vegan redefined as – something you do only when sober?

Then there are instances of people who identify as “vegan” (such as this brainless moronic post: Alicia Silverstone cheats on vegan diet with dairy as her downfall which says sometimes a little egg and dairy are good, because it shows others we are flexible, and that the author herself “I end up having bit of dairy or a baked good with some egg in it” – hun, you ain’t vegan!!) complaining about those who forgo all cheese as being “militant”, I beg your pardon – not eating cheese is not being “militant”, it’s actually just plain Vegan.

I respect what Alicia has done for animals, and if people go vegan because they read her book, good for her, but people also go vegan when they visit PETA websites too, and many, many vegans don’t like PETA, and compare that to the hatred directed at Sea Shepherd for not being vegan, and people change because of SS too, so why the double standards? I really hope it isn’t because she is young, blond, white and famous.

How many vegans out there don’t eat cheese, or any other dairy, and find ways to get alternatives.

Why do people go through all sorts of contortions to redefine vegan. It is simple – not animal products. Not just sometimes, all the times. If you accidently eat something, then you move on, but for Alicia, it doesn’t seem to be an accident, it seems to be a pattern.

Take a look at her answer here:

What do you do when you crave non-vegan foods?

Alicia Silverstone.: Well, I never crave non-vegan foods, because vegan foods are so delicious. When I’m out and there are no vegetarian foods available, then I just make the best choices I can. Sometimes, it’s to eat nothing at all, or I’ll have the least offensive thing. Maybe there’s a salad with goat cheese, or potato salad with a little mayo. That’s what it’s about — making the best choices under all circumstances.Alicia Silverstone Quit Counting Calories – With Her “Kind Diet”

Actually… NO, veganism isn’t defined as “making the best choices” – it is In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.: Vegan

But, at what point do we stop watering down what “vegan” actually means, people call Bill Clinton vegan in the exact same interview he discusses eating fish (He actually seems to be making a lot of changes to his dies, it is “almost vegan”) – vegan has a meaning, do some people want that label so badly that they will ignore its meaning? I could call myself anything I want, doesn’t make it true, calling yourself “vegan” when you clearly aren’t doesn’t make veganism flexible, it totally strips all value and meaning from a word that has a specific definition.

… how would ordinary (by that I mean, Non celebrity) vegans who don’t “cheat” (which I find a silly word, its not “cheating” its eating cheese) feel going to a vegan restaurant being served cheese, honey, eggs, once that happens, the people who actually are vegan might have to explore a new word.

People who make comments like that, are they vegan themselves? I know how hard it is for me and vegans I know to live a vegan life, someone who doesn’t encounter difficulties occasionally, maybe there is a reason.

And as for “revoke her vegan powers”…. um, do you consider cheese and egg to be vegan? If you think there is something wrong with pointing out that Alicia Silverstone is a vegetarian, not a vegan, then there is definitely something wrong with your definition of vegan.

I had no appetite for meat sauce. Giving up beef wasn’t just some fleeting idea. Over the next year, I stopped eating all animals and animal products. I always thought going vegan would be difficult, but I genuinely don’t crave meat or cheese. And I feel happier, like I’m contributing to making the world a less violent place. Before that morning on the farm, I ranked an animal’s value based on how “human” it was. Now I don’t judge other beings that way—every animal has its own intelligence and sensitivities. They’re all lovely, worthwhile, and deserving of our respect.

Comparing the words used by both Alicia and Portia, and how they see veganism:
Alicia uses words like: “recipes”, “calories”, “look my best” and the words “Losing Weight” are in the title of her diet book
………. compare that to Portia de Rossi : “intelligence”, “sensitivities”, “respect”, “deserving”, “worthwhile”, “contributing to… the world”

And yet, Alicia is seen as a true champion of kindness and veganism, and Portia is just a bimbo lesbian.
Portia de Rossi, probably doesn’t get enough respect for her awareness.

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Articles copyright 2010 ‘Vegan Animal Liberation Alliance’. Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium without royalty provided this notice is preserved.
Written by RedGlitter of VALA https://redglitterx.wordpress.com/

This does not apply to all vegans, but is my personal story of what happens why B12 levels become critical.

I assume that I am no different to most vegans, in that I read about nutrition and food widely. I think vegans probably read more books about food than most other people.

So I knew that B12 (cobalamin) of all the vitamins and minerals was the most important one, being sourced via animal products.

Image via Wikipedia: vegan breakfast

It is produced by bacteria – so if it is found in plant food, it is in foods such as mushrooms which may have come in contact with dirt, or if it is found in animal products it is still the result of bacteria production.

Which is why, unless vegans pay attention, it can be overlooked.

There is a common idea on vegan websites and books, that there is enough B12 in the body to last five years or so, so when someone first goes vegan there is enough still in their system to last.

Last year, several things happened to me all at once, I got a really bad case of flu, and was not eating, this came after several weeks of dental treatment, where I hadn’t eaten, which came after a personal thing, in which I’d lost my enjoyment of food.

As a result, my weight had dropped by almost 10 kilos. My diet was shocking, I knew there was chance I would be low in some nutrients.

But I had begun to get strange symptoms.

My feet had started to get permanent pins-and-needles, then my hands. And then what was really scary, my memory was being affected.

Several instances stand out:
I was with a group of friends discussion how long we had known each other. I looked at one of my closet friends who I met in 2000 and the word that formed in my mind was 1990, when I spoke it, it came out as “1900”. No, that’s wrong, I mean 1990. My friend wasn’t born til 1991, so I wrote on a piece of paper 2000, which my hand wrote as 1880.

Another, I was with the same friends, trying to find something on a map, I pointed to the red section, the word that formed in my brain was “orange” even though I knew it was red, I told myself “it’s red” but again the word “orange” took the place of red. And as I spoke, the words that came out of my mouth were “I think it’s that purple section”
… So not only did I know that it was red as a colour, yet the letters in my mind were “orange”, my mouth said purple.

I was losing my nouns. I couldn’t remember the names of things, even though I could describe them.

I couldn’t remember the world “Cucumber”, and I was trying to describe it to my dining companion, “it’s long, and round, and hard…” (no, I am not flirting with you) “it’s cold, you eat it in salad, it had a dark green skin…”

It was time for action, this wasn’t a hold over of my flu or dental work.

I have occasional blood tests as part of my job, so during one routine blood test, I asked for my Iron and B12 to be also checked. We discussed my dental work, the flu I’d had and my lose of appetite, so I expected some of my readings to be a little low.

When the results came back, my doctor said my B12 was fine, but my iron was low.

I’d read in several places that low iron can mask a B12 deficiency, so while I expected my iron to be low, but Not out of range, I really thought my B12 would be low too.

pills and medications

I knew these results had to be wrong.

I occasionally take a vitamin supplement that has a B12 component, and I read the instructions: Take 2 every day with food.

I probably would have been taking not even 2 a week. But I made sure I took the recommended dosage.

And within a week and half, or so, the numbness in my hands and feet went, my memory returned. I don’t know that it was B12 deficiency, but I really, sincerely believe that it was. I don’t believe the blood tests told the wole story.

There are four foods I consume regularly that are fortified with B12, and I try to eat them often. And I try to get motivated to take vitamin supplements.

And if anyone wants to say, “but that just shows the inadequacies of being vegan”, take a look around your kitchen/bathroom, at how many pills and medications you take. I only take B12 occasionally, and that is it, that is all.

mmmm toast

What happened to me was not just because I am vegan, it happened because there were 3 things in my life at the same time, that occurred one after the other, which meant I was barely eating…

and even having barely eaten in the 6 weeks or so before the medical tests, I still had an Iron level that was in the normal range (allbeit, the low end of normal)… and of all the people I know who have ever been prescribed iron tablets, they have been meat eaters, so I got a smile out of that result.

This is not medical advice, this is my personal story, I don’t blame it on being vegan, I chalk it down to being a young woman, who sometimes has changing life circumstances.

Scones are a traditional English favourite, (similar to what is known in the USA as biscuits) often eaten warm with lashings of butter or cold with cream and jam.

This simple recipe is a vegan version, fast to make and fast to cook. The use of brown sugar rather than white, and dates gives a slightly caramel taste.Ingredients
3 cups of self raising flour
80 grams vegan margarine
brown sugar (non bone char)
1/2-3/4 cup soy milk, or other plant milk

1/4 cup dried dates, chopped and soaked in a little hot water for 10 minutes

Preparation
Preheat the oven to 180°C (350°F)

In a large mixing bowl add the flour, well sifted.
Add sugar, depending on taste. Stir through.
Add the dates, reserve the liquid. Mix well.

Add milk to the reserved date soaking water, until it reaches half a cup. Add to the flour mix and combine.

The dough should not be sticky to touch. If the mix is too dry add more milk, a tablespoon at a time.

When combined, roll the dough out on a floured board and break out small balls of dough. (Or leave in the mixing bowl and scoop them out)

Place these on a greased baking tray.

Bake for 10 minutes or until brown and a wooden toothpick comes up clean.

If fact, according to one comment on my recent blog post, if you haven’t read Camille Marino or Steve Best you can’t even call yourself “animal liberationist”.

not really animal liberation?

Here we go again – according to Carolyn Bailey, if you haven’t read every single word ever written by Gary Francione you’re a “fake” vegan; if you have a low IQ you are a not an activist; and if you happen to be an illiterate vegan… well that would just about give her a stroke.

And now we have the “redefining veganism” trend coming from the other side –

According to “Ryan”, my comment that I have never read Camille Marino or Steve Best is trash talk, and how dare I use words like vegan or animal liberation if I have never read these two.

I’m sorry, I seem to completely miss your point. Camille Marino who has been a vegan for probably 20 years less than me, now defines what my veganism is for me? “Ryan” are you serious? Are you kidding me?

I don’t want to get involved in the Best/Francione cat fight. To me that is not animal rights activism. It is pointless, and more to the point – really, really boring to 99% of the vegans in the world who are not USAmerican.

I don’t want to choose sides, I don’t want to align, but others keep insisting on doing that for me (much like the threats against my family and racist hatefilled comments I have received from abolitionists), people seem to have their own ideas of what “vegan” is, and if you don’t match that, then you are FAKE.

Oh please.

I have nothing against these people, I just have more local people blogging about animal rights in my country, issues that affect my life directly, rather than the abstract, which I read first and when I have time, then I will move on to people from other countries.

Or, is it case of Neo-Colonialism, as I said in my reply to “Ryan”.

If it is USAmerican, it is universal. When USAmericans speak, the rest of the world has to bow down before them, and go “oh you are so correct, how did I live my life before you blogged”. Ridiculous.

Someone should break it to “Ryan” that vegans exist in probably all countries in the world, some probably don’t read English, some may not even read, and some possible don’t have access to an internet or even a computer.

Much like Carolyn Baileys insane ramblings that if you can’t read you’re not an activist but you are a fake vegan, Ryan is now pushing the patronising view point that if you don’t read Camille Marino or Steve Best you really have no right calling yourself a vegan or even an animal rights activist.

I don’t really think I need to repeat my previous blog post, but Ryan seems to have missed my point before he rushed to judgement….

So, let us all stop worrying about what other people are doing, who is or isn’t vegan, who is or isn’t being read and concentrate on our lives. Vegan has a definition, let’s use it, and if you don’t like it, invent your own word, and we can all stop these pointless debates about the “fake” vegans who choose to ignore Francione.If you’re not abolitionist, you aren’t really vegan

Or, as I now seem to have to add…. Let’s stop these pointless insults about the “fake animal rights activists” who haven’t read Camille Marino or Steve Best.

Wow, for someone like me who is vegan, and yet doesn’t align myself with any faction – this was quite a shock to me to read.

Shocked, stunned and speechless.

The word “vegan” was invented in 1944, by Elsie Shrigley and Donald Watson, who founded the UK Vegan Society. The British Vegan Society defines veganism this way:

The word “veganism” denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

The co-opting and corrupting of the word “VEGAN” by a minority of online vegans has been explored extensively in a previous blog post here Vegan.

If the word “vegan” inherently meant abolitionist, then there would be no need for these little groups to call themselves “abolitionist vegan”. They would be just simply “vegan”.

There is no need to hyphenate the word Vegan, it means what it means.

I feel strongly that there is something slightly odd with people who feel the need to redefine a perfectly acceptable word in order to exclude a large portion of the population of vegans in order to control what and who “vegan” is.

Many, many vegans across the world have never read Gary Francione and are lucky enough to have never been threatened and harassed by Francione’s followers – Roger Yates, Dave Warwak, Jamie Rivet, or Carolyn Bailey.

And yet this little band of abolitionists group-think warriors have decided that they and they alone are the only true vegans on this planet.

Carolyn Bailey herself has also gone so far recently as say that, a persons IQ decided whether they were an activist or not; and that a lack of reading certain peoples philosophies means that person is a fake activist!

There is nothing, nothing whatsoever in the definition of “vegan” that says a person has to read these people, in fact, it doesn’t say you have to read anything at all.

So, let us all stop worrying about what other people are doing, who is or isn’t vegan, who is or isn’t being read and concentrate on our lives. Vegan has a definition, let’s use it, and if you don’t like it, invent your own word, and we can all stop these pointless debates about the “fake” vegans who choose to ignore Francione.