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Author
Topic: Poppers & CD4s (Read 23070 times)

I was reading in Gay Times that medium to regular use (once per week apparently) of Amyl Nitrate (Poppers) lowers your CD4s. However there was not any data or numbers to back it up. My Doctor is completely anti poppers and has strongly advised me on non use as she says 'anyone with a suppressed immune system should eliminate them from their daily needs'. Has anyone any experience or knowledge of poppers lowering CD4s or effecting meds?

There are no prospective controlled trials on use of amyl and immune suppression. There are many theories, however. Until they are tested they remain theories. Very much so.

Like any enjoyable susbtance, eg smoke, a drink too much, long-term frequent use is likely to affect your health. The key is moderation. There is a difference between a sniff or two once a week and taping a small brown bottle to your nose every evening. Some people like to have a go at amyl, like cos your HIV+ you can't have the sex you want - oftenthe lecture comes from someone with a Malborough Light etc in their hand....

Nitrates do no interact with HIV meds.

- matt "pass me the room freshener, I need to clean a spot on my leather sofa" the newt

I have done poppers in the past....Many years ago. I certainly would not do them now. If you are on Protease inhibitors, and using Viagra, or cialis, you should avoid poppers. Just something to think about...

From Aidsmap :

"There are no documented interactions between drugs used to treat HIV and poppers. However, sniffing poppers after taking the anti-impotence drugs Viagra and Cialis can result in a potentially dangerous, even fatal, drop in blood pressure. The dangers from sniffing poppers after taking Viagra or Cialis are increased if you are also taking a protease inhibitor as part of your HIV treatments. Protease inhibitors cause the amount of Viagra or Cialis in the blood to increase, and for this reason it is recommended that people prescribed protease inhibitors take only half the normal dose of Viagra or Cialis and do not use poppers at the same time"

I have used them when I was on Paxil which caused 'orgasm delays'and they certainly didnt have any downwards effect on my cd4's. I talked about it to my dr who was against and to my psychiatrist who said it didn't matter. Pls note that this contribution has no scientific value and is based on a sample population of 1.

I had never really heard of this til I started looking on the internet. There doesn't really seem to be any proof, just conjucture. Of course doctors would recommend not doing poppers, just as they would discourage doing anything that might be considered indulgent. But until there's hard proof it won't affect my usage of them, which is a long way from every evening anyway.

"... Protease inhibitors cause the amount of Viagra or Cialis in the blood to increase, and for this reason it is recommended that people prescribed protease inhibitors take only half the normal dose of Viagra ..."

The caution is for ritonavir (Norvir, therefore also Kaletra) and saquinavir (Invirase). These PIs increase Viagra (sildenafil citrate) etc levels.

Saquinavir, a mild inhibitor of the liver enzyme CYP3A4, elevates the maximum concentration of Viagra 2.4-fold and extends its half-life in the body by about one hour. Ritonavir, a much more potent CYP3A4 inhibitor, increases the maximum Viagra concentration four times and extends its half-life by almost two hours.

Pfizer has altered the Viagra dosing recommendations for men on protease inhibitors.

Men normally start out on 50 mg Viagra (only once in a given 24 hours) and raise or lower the dose based on the results and side effects. Men on saquinavir should instead use 25 mg as the initial dose. For ritonavir, the situation is more serious. In the study, side effects from Viagra (color distortion, dizziness, facial flushing, headaches and low blood pressure) were much more common in the volunteers on concurrent ritonavir. Pfizer advises that patients receiving ritonavir should take only one 25 mg dose of Viagra in a 48-hour period. The company is now trying to extrapolate its results for the other protease inhibitors, which fall between saquinavir and ritonavir in their inhibition of liver enzyme activity.

Poppers are my preferred recreational drug, especially if I don't want to drink to excess and / or smoke pot. Plus, for those of us with the gift and curse of being really really tight, it can mean the difference between a fantastic evening and something not worth loading up the digital camera to record.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Did a search for "poppers" and sure enough there was already a thread. To see what members here thought about the various theories and recommendations out there. They're the only rec. drug I use (besides alcohol).

If I have a complaint about amyl nitrite (not nitrate) is that it's not; but perhaps that's a good thing. The little brown bottles commonly available are butyl or isobutyl nitrite; sometimes so weak that you actually want to try cleaning your defunct VCR with them.

Mark, you should keep that bottle for another 10 years; it's going to be valuable (and have have even more "sentimental" value).

Jay

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

Another question along this line: according to the explanation of how nitrate inhalants work, when inhaled the blood vessels expand, causing a sudden drop in blood pressure. To counteract this, the heart starts to beat faster, and a sudden "rush" of oxygen-rich blood flows into the brain. Now, this may be way off the mark (I am not a scientist), but if we know that hiv lodges in the brain, if we cause an increase of blood flow into the brain, and the blood has a viral load, would that cause a greater chance of hiv being deposited in the brain? Does our physiology work this way, or is this just plain wrong? Just curious.

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"Hope is my philosophy Just needs days in which to beLove of Life means hope for meBorn on a New Day" - John David

There was a discussion which was held in the "I Just Tested Positve" forum on September 02, 2006. A new member to the forum had posed the same question regarding "Poppers & CD4's". I'd like to share the information with you on what was found out about "Poppers":

Here's the Lowdown on Poppers

People who use poppers face certain risks -- and for critical health reasons it's important users know what those risks are.

"Poppers" -- fluids containing butyl or isobutyl nitrite that are often sold in bottles labeled "leather cleaner" or "room deodorizer" -- are inhaled, and the fumes of poppers trigger an immediate, short-term sensation.

The sensation, that of euphoria and muscular relaxation, is caused by blood vessel expansion, accelerated heart rate and blood rushing to the brain. This creates an intense short-lived "rush" experience. Poppers are used mainly as a recreational drug and are often combined with other drugs such as Ecstasy and speed. When used during sex, poppers can enhance orgasms and also may relax the muscles of the anus. However, they can also cause some people to lose their erection.

Individuals who use poppers should also know about the risks involved. They include:

Poppers dilate blood vessels and can increase the risk of tears in the anal tissue, increasing the opportunity for HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases to enter the body. Users can minimize their risk by putting a condom on before inhaling and by using plenty of lubricant.

Avoid using Viagra and poppers together as they both work to reduce blood pressure and can cause an individual to lose consciousness or even cause death.

Chronic use of poppers inhibits the immune system, impairing the body's natural ability to fight infection and disease. One study showed that the immune suppression effect could last for up to five days before the immune system returned to normal. People with anemia, glaucoma or heart conditions should avoid using poppers.

Regular use of poppers can cause sores in the mouth and nose, reduced sense of smell and cause lung damage. Excessive use may also result in a life-threatening reduction of oxygen in the blood. If swallowed, the drug can cause death.

Finally, poppers are highly flammable and should be kept away from any type of cigarette or flame.

Chronic use of poppers inhibits the immune system, impairing the body's natural ability to fight infection and disease. One study showed that the immune suppression effect could last for up to five days before the immune system returned to normal. People with anemia, glaucoma or heart conditions should avoid using poppers.

Hey Hal,

You DO have a very valid point. However, why would anyone want to inhibit their immune system when it is the very thing that they are fighting for to keep it as strong as possible? Why tear down what you are trying to rebuild?

However, why would anyone want to inhibit their immune system when it is the very thing that they are fighting for to keep it as strong as possible? Why tear down what you are trying to rebuild?

Make the BEST of each and every Day!

Because some people like doing them and it's not always about protecting our precious immune system. Sometimes it's about other stuff too. And sometimes you just don't feel like making the best out of each and every day. Sometimes it's about just getting by, with whatever means necessary.

No one has written a disclaimer that you have to stop using "poppers". We are all given a free will to make our own choices in life. The information has been provided as to the effects of the usage of "poppers" with your immune system.

Also, if you do not feel like making the BEST out of each and every day, that is also your choice as well.

Poppers, at worst, with occasional use have a transient effect on the lungs, white cells and perhaps liver, but no more than drink or a spliff. Like all drugs, consistent heavy use will be bad (but not that bad in this case).

No-one goes on about the dangers of sky diving, but it's well dangerous.

Chronic use of poppers inhibits the immune system, impairing the body's natural ability to fight infection and disease. One study showed that the immune suppression effect could last for up to five days before the immune system returned to normal. People with anemia, glaucoma or heart conditions should avoid using poppers.

Thanks for that post but I went to the S.F. Aids Foundation and did a search and found no information on nitrate inhalants...also, I thought that there was no proof that poppers inhibit the immune system..what gives? Would you happen to know where to read about that study? Finally, I suppose no one has any info on the original question, about increase blood flow to the brain increasing viral load there?? J.

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"Hope is my philosophy Just needs days in which to beLove of Life means hope for meBorn on a New Day" - John David

To answer your question, the San Francisco Aids Foundation currently has (3) three different publications. This particular article was published in their "OutReach" publication and it resides on their sister site in their archives.

If you choose to gather more detailed information regarding these studies, I strongly suggest that you contact the source who wrote the article. For your convience, their e-mail address is: feedback@sfaf.org .

Poppers are are inhaled nitrites (usually amyl or butyl nitrite but occasionally ethyl chloride is used) which have the effect of lowering blood pressure and relaxing smooth muscle.

Their use facilitates anal sex and other sexual practices such as fisting so they are very popular amongst homosexual men. They are also used by heterosexuals and lesbians for various vaginal and anal penetrative activities.

Amyl nitrite is also used to treat some heart conditions and cyanide toxicity.

At one point it was suggested that inhalant nitrite abuse was the cause of AIDS, an hypothesis that was debunked upon the discovery of HIV. Some people maintain that there is a link between nitrite use and Kaposi's Sarcoma. This has also been conclusively disproven.

MtD(Who knows that there are no stupid questions only inquisitive idiots)

/edited because I left out the winky to indicate light hearted and good natured humour/

"Some people maintain that there is a link between nitrite use and Kaposi's Sarcoma. This has also been conclusively disproven." MtD

There is disagreement about the link between poppers and KS being conclusively disproven. The question remains open and controversial. Checkout www.gmhp.net/health/poppers.html for a perspective on poppers.

"Compared with men who never used "poppers," use less than once a week was associated with a 1.3 fold increased odds of HHV-8 infection"...."use 1-2 times per week 2.9 -fold increase"..."and use >3 days per week 3.4 -fold increase."

"The strong dose dependent relation between popper use and HHV-8 infection has been found consistently in epidemiologic studies. A number of explanations have been offered for this association, ranging from the effects of nitrites on immune function to the vasidilatory properties of these drugs. We found evidence of amyl nitrite use being significantly associated with sexual behaviors that could confer a greater risk of STI acquisition. Therefore the question of whether the relation between amyl nitrites and HHV-8 is biological or behavioral remains unanswered."

from Corey Casper, MD. Sexually Transmitted Diseases 2006; 82:229-235; "HIV Serodiscordant sex partners and the prevalence of human herpesvirus 8 infection among HIV negative men who have sex with men: baseline data from the EXPLORE Study"

While associations are not always causal, there existence is a clue which drives research. A KS mystery exists. Most gay men with HHV-8 do not develop KS.Prevalence of KS and prevalence of HHV-8 is disproportionate among gay men. HHV-8 is most prevalent in saliva and suspected to be transmitted through deep kissing. However, most kissers, including kissing gay guys, do not have HHV-8. HHV-8 infection and KS may be multifactorial. Research on the KS/HHV-8 mystery continues.

A basic concern about poppers is that they may be immunosuppressive increasing susceptibility to infections... to.HIV, HHV-8, and others. Frequency and quantity of use may impact the degree and duration of immunosuppression and susceptibility.

In 1991 Dr. Elizabeth Dax conducted a human study on popper use and its impact on the human immune system. She demonstrated that 3 inhalations resulted in immediate suppression of natural killer cell function. It took 4 days for the immune system to recover to baseline. However, after returning to baseline, the immune system continued to stay stimulated. A stimulated immune system is not desirable if you have HIV infection.