Thanks everyone for this discussion! You have given me a lot to think about. Because I fear I am making a poor argument for the Roman Catholic position I will appeal to the philosopher GEM Anscombe:

"Here, however, people still feel intensely confused, because the intention where oral contraceptives are taken seems to be just the same as when intercourse is deliberately restricted to infertile periods. In one way this is true, and its truth is actually pointed out by Humanae Vitae, in a passage I will quote in a moment. But in another way it's not true.

The reason why people are confused about intention, and why they sometimes think there is no difference between contraceptive intercourse and the use of infertile times to avoid conception, is this: They don't notice the difference between "intention" when it means the intentionalness of the thing you're doing - that you're doing this on purpose - and when it means a further or accompanying intention with which you do the thing. For example, I make a table: that's an intentional action because I am doing just that on purpose. I have the further intention of, say, earning my living, doing my job by making the table. Contraceptive intercourse and intercourse using infertile times may be alike in respect of further intention, and these further intentions may be good, justified, excellent. This the Pope has noted. He sketched such a situation and said: "It cannot be denied that in both cases the married couple, for acceptable reasons," (for that's how he imagined the case) "are perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and mean to secure that none will be born." This is a comment on the two things: contraceptive intercourse on the one hand and intercourse using infertile times on the other, for the sake of the limitation of the family.

But contraceptive intercourse is faulted, not on account of this further intention, but because of the kind of intentional action you are doing. The action is not left by you as the kind of act by which life is transmitted, but is purposely rendered infertile, and so changed to another sort of act altogether.

In considering an action, we need always to judge several things about ourselves. First: is the sort of act we contemplate doing something that it's all right to do? Second: are our further or surrounding intentions all right? Third: is the spirit in which we do it all right? Contraceptive intercourse fails on the first count; and to intend such an act is not to intend a marriage act at all, whether or no we're married. An act of ordinary intercourse in marriage at an infertile time, though, is a perfectly ordinary act of married intercourse, and it will be bad, if it is bad, only on the second or third counts.

It may help you to see that the intentional act itself counts, as well as the further or accompanying intentions, if you think of an obvious example like forging a cheque to steal from somebody in order to get funds for a good purpose. The intentional action, presenting a cheque we've forged, is on the face of it a dishonest action, not be vindicated by the good further intention."

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception. It is the absence of an action that prevents conception. It is sort of like a hole. A hole exists when there is an absence of something. When a couple uses NFP their actions are never contraceptive, only their intent.

Sure they are. Just like a farmer sowing seed on a pile of rocks.

To see the truth of that, apply the patristics that HV doesn't quote (because it can't) but depends on: imagine if the couple could only engage in sexual intercourse when the wife was fertile. Would they completely abstain, or would they, sooner or later, take their chances?

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An artificial distinction. LOL. You're talking as if there were a check list for a "natural sexual act." Your model, for instance, wouldn't deal with coitus interruptus, which I'm assUming you would also see as "artificial."

I wouldn't use the term artificial in such a case, but compromised, but this isn't very important.

Claiming that there is no difference is jumping ahead a little bit, dont you think? A situation where one can either escape when the coast is clear or instead murder a guard to save time is completely different than a situation where a person's life is in immediate danger, and thus the moral dilemma is different.

That's like the "difference" between beheading someone, and driving him into the wilderness where he dies. He still ends up dead. To think otherwise is to engage in casuistry (or Jesuitry) to convince a guilty conscience it is innocent.

I disagree. In your analogy beheading is akin to artificial contraception, leaving him to die as NFP, where intending his death is akin to the intent to avoid conception. In both cases you are actively doing something to lead a man to his death. A better analogy would be Personally beheading someone vs. standing by and letting someone else do the beheading. In both cases you may be held morally culpable, but my inclination is to think most people would say the person actually ctting off another person's head is more in the wrong than the person merely not preventing the beheading.

Your analogy resembles more the situation the Vatican first took up when it changed its position, allowing to "submit" to their husbands when infertile, so as to wean them off of coitus interruptus. In that case the wife is the on standing by (or rather, laying down-and no doubt thinking of Italy), whereas the husband is the one "more in the wrong."

Because we have agreed that there is nothing wrong with aiming to avoid conception for good reasons I think a better analogy would be that of losing weight that I brought up earlier. We both agree that it may be at times good or permissible to lose weight, but losing weight through dieting is good whereas losing weight through bulimia is bad and harmful. In this case we see that the morality of the actions is not determined by the intent, but by the means itself. The question in this analogy is whether bulimia is bad only because of the physical harm it causes, or if there is something bad about interfering with the eating and digestion process itself. Are things only moral if they are beneficial? Are we to be utilitarians?

Yes, the bulimia analogy has become a favorite of HV apologists. Unfortunately it resembles abortion more than it resembles contraception, and hence not on point.

Rather, the analogy would be using things like fibertrim, diet coke, equal or weigh watchers, which is perfectly fine. So too gastric bypass, if such a thing is warranted.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 11:31:04 PM by ialmisry »

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"Here, however, people still feel intensely confused, because the intention where oral contraceptives are taken seems to be just the same as when intercourse is deliberately restricted to infertile periods. In one way this is true, and its truth is actually pointed out by Humanae Vitae, in a passage I will quote in a moment. But in another way it's not true.

The reason why people are confused about intention, and why they sometimes think there is no difference between contraceptive intercourse and the use of infertile times to avoid conception, is this: They don't notice the difference between "intention" when it means the intentionalness of the thing you're doing - that you're doing this on purpose - and when it means a further or accompanying intention with which you do the thing. For example, I make a table: that's an intentional action because I am doing just that on purpose. I have the further intention of, say, earning my living, doing my job by making the table. Contraceptive intercourse and intercourse using infertile times may be alike in respect of further intention, and these further intentions may be good, justified, excellent. This the Pope has noted. He sketched such a situation and said: "It cannot be denied that in both cases the married couple, for acceptable reasons," (for that's how he imagined the case) "are perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and mean to secure that none will be born." This is a comment on the two things: contraceptive intercourse on the one hand and intercourse using infertile times on the other, for the sake of the limitation of the family.

But contraceptive intercourse is faulted, not on account of this further intention, but because of the kind of intentional action you are doing. The action is not left by you as the kind of act by which life is transmitted, but is purposely rendered infertile, and so changed to another sort of act altogether.

In considering an action, we need always to judge several things about ourselves. First: is the sort of act we contemplate doing something that it's all right to do? Second: are our further or surrounding intentions all right? Third: is the spirit in which we do it all right? Contraceptive intercourse fails on the first count; and to intend such an act is not to intend a marriage act at all, whether or no we're married. An act of ordinary intercourse in marriage at an infertile time, though, is a perfectly ordinary act of married intercourse, and it will be bad, if it is bad, only on the second or third counts.

It may help you to see that the intentional act itself counts, as well as the further or accompanying intentions, if you think of an obvious example like forging a cheque to steal from somebody in order to get funds for a good purpose. The intentional action, presenting a cheque we've forged, is on the face of it a dishonest action, not be vindicated by the good further intention."

I'll get down to that, but before I've noticed a few problems as we go along:

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The prohibition was issued in the same breath as the merely temporary retention of Judaic laws prohibiting the eating of blood - no black pudding!

Who says it is "merely temporary" or "Judaic? The Council of Jerusalem, i.e. Scripture, gives no such indication.

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In one word: Christianity taught that men ought to be as chaste as pagans thought honest women ought to be; the contraceptive morality teaches that women need to be as little chaste as pagans thought men need be.

An assertion which she begs throughout the piece. Again, in this she follows most apologists of HV, who seem to think contraception means "sex on demand" 24/7, and couples engaging in contraception are permanently joined at their hips (or thereabouts).

Quote

And if there is nothing intrinsically wrong with contraceptive intercourse, and if it could become general practice everywhere when there is intercourse but ought to be no begetting, then it's very difficult to see the objection to this morality, for the ground of objection to fornication and adultery was that sexual intercourse is only right in the sort of set-up that typically provides children with a father and mother to care for them. If you can turn intercourse into something other than the reproductive type of act (I don't mean of course that every act is reproductive any more than every acorn leads to an oak-tree but it's the reproductive type of act) then why, if you can change it, should it be restricted to the married? Restricted, that is, to partners bound in a formal, legal, union whose fundamental purpose is the bringing up of children? For if that is not its fundamental purpose there is no reason why for example "marriage" should have to be between people of opposite sexes. But then, of course, it becomes unclear why you should have a ceremony, why you should have a formality at all. And so we must grant that children are in this general way the main point of the existence of such an arrangement. But if sexual union can be deliberately and totally divorced from fertility, then we may wonder why sexual union has got to be married union. If the expression of love between the partners is the point, then it shouldn't be so narrowly confined.

Only the mentality which dreams up the Corban of annullments could dream up such a paragraph. She seems to deny the fact that children can and are produced from reproductive types of act outside of marriage all the time (whether they should is another issue). Would she argue, for instance, that woman-on-top or dorsal intercourse "turn[s ] intercourse into something other than the reproductive type of act"? Because the Stoic philosophy which formed the basis of HV's position and the meagre patristics and canons which nurtured it argued just that.

People shouldn't marry to have children: that renders the husband a sperm donor and the wife a baby maker. Marriage should result in children, but they are the result, not the aim, of the marriage. Her argument, as other apologists for HV, reduce couples to breeders.

Lord willing, I'll return to this later. But in the meantime, her dismissive parenthesis do not dispense of the objection: every intercourse would have to be reproductive for her to be correct. Once you allow "types" of the act, contraception (artificial or natural) has its license.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 12:00:53 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception.

There is the action of using the artificially man made thermometer and the charts. You are actively using those artificially man made unnatural objects to avoid having children. You are actively making use of several different unnatural tools and measurements to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception.

There is the action of using the artificially man made thermometer and the charts. You are actively using those artificially man made unnatural objects to avoid having children. You are actively making use of several different unnatural tools and measurements to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

Those things are not interfering with the sexual act. The act itself remains unchanged.

As Anscombe mentions in the article, when Catholics talk about "unnatural" things they do not simply mean things that are artificial, but also thing that go against the moral standards dictated by natural law.

Only the mentality which dreams up the Corban of annullments could dream up such a paragraph. She seems to deny the fact that children can and are produced from reproductive types of act outside of marriage all the time (whether they should is another issue). Would she argue, for instance, that woman-on-top or dorsal intercourse "turn[s ] intercourse into something other than the reproductive type of act"? Because the Stoic philosophy which formed the basis of HV's position and the meagre patristics and canons which nurtured it argued just that.

People shouldn't marry to have children: that renders the husband a sperm donor and the wife a baby maker. Marriage should result in children, but they are the result, not the aim, of the marriage. Her argument, as other apologists for HV, reduce couples to breeders.

Lord willing, I'll return to this later. But in the meantime, her dismissive parenthesis do not dispense of the objection: every intercourse would have to be reproductive for her to be correct. Once you allow "types" of the act, contraception (artificial or natural) has its license.

This last statement of yours makes me wonder if you really read the article. Anscombe is very clear in explaining that marriage does not exist solely for the procreation of children, but that this is a key part of marriage that should not be removed from marriage. There can me more than one aim of marriage, and procreation is one of these reasons. The fact that there are other reasons as well does not negate this.

The only objection, then, to the new heathen, contraceptive morality will be that the second condition I mentioned - near-universality of contraception where there ought not to be begetting - simply won't be fulfilled. Against the background of a society with that morality, more and more people will have intercourse with little feeling of responsibility, little restraint, and yet they just won't be so careful about always using contraceptives. And so the widespread use of contraceptives naturally leads to more and more rather than less and less abortion (The exception to this in the short term is where abortion has been encouraged and contraceptives not available, making contraceptives available then produces an immediate but only temporary reduction in abortions.) Indeed, abortion is now being recommended as a population control measure - a second line of defence.

getting through this very poorly written paragraph, she seems not to know that most, if not nearly all, married couples who practice contraception do in fact beget and bear (the exclusive use of "begetting" seems to belie the Stoic fetish that underlies the "reasoning" of HV) children.

Of course, she continues to beg the issue that "contraceptive mentality" leads to "intercourse with little feeling of responsibility" and "little restraint," rather than the other way around. I don't think the Netherlands lagged behind the US in that in the '60's, although contraception, information on contraception, and contraceptive propaganda like Planned Parenthood were illegal until 1969. Nor does it lead to homosexuality, btw, which was legalized in the Netherlands nearly two centuries before.

I don't think she has the facts to back up her assertion that "the widespread use of contraceptives naturally leads to more and more rather than less and less abortion", or even the theory: if contraception removes all restraint, as she argues, then there are more instances of intercourse, and the number of abortions would have to go up to keep up and not drop in the ratio of abortion/intercourse. Intercourse hasn't gone down in the US, but the abortion rate has, and I think that has been the case in most countries' statistics I have seen except for Japan-where contraception has been available but no one uses it, preferring abortion as a back up. Conversely, contraception is available in Egypt, and is used, but big families remain the norm.

She pretty much condemns the POV she is advocated when she says

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Now if this - that you won't get this universal "taking care" - is the only objection then it's a pretty miserable outlook. Because, like the fear of venereal disease, it's an objection that's little capable of moving people or inspiring them as a positive ideal of chastity may.

as she doesn't get much beyond the fear of pregnancy as a check on promiscuity, if at all.

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The Christian Church has taught such an ideal of chastity: in a narrower sense, and in a broader sense in which chastity is simply the virtue whose topic is sex, just as courage is the virtue whose topic is danger and difficulty. In the narrower sense chastity means continence, abstention. I have to say something about this - though I'm reduced to stammering because I am a mediocre worldly person leading an ordinary sort of worldly life; nevertheless I'll try to say it even with stammering.

What people are for is, we believe, like guided missiles, to home in on God, God who is the one truth it is infinitely worth knowing, the possession of which you could never get tired of, like the water which if you have you can never thirst again, because your thirst is slaked forever and always. It's this potentiality, this incredible possibility, of the knowledge of God of such a kind as even to be sharing in his nature, which Christianity holds out to people; and because of this potentiality every life, right up to the last, must be treated as precious. Its potentialities in all things the world cares about may be slight; but there is always the possibility of what it's for. We can't ever know that the time of possibility of gaining eternal life is over, however old, wretched, "useless" someone has become.

Now there are some people who want this so much that they want to be totally concerned with it and to die to their own worldly, earthly and fleshly desires. It is people who are so filled with this enormous desire and are able to follow it, who pursue the course of chastity in the narrow sense - this is the point, the glory, of Christian celibacy and virginity and of vows of chastity. I think one has to know about it in order to appreciate the teachings of Christianity about chastity in a wide sense. But as I say I speak stammeringly because I'm not very well qualified.

Her stammering spits out the confusion of chastity with celibacy. Many who have embraced Christian celibacy without being called to it have tarnished monasticism rather than giving it luster, while a Christian marriage is truly a glory to behold-even the Muslims in Egypt admit it so.

It is surprising that the writings of monks in the golden age of monasticism dwell mostly on bellies and fasting, rather than reproductive organs and their use or misuse.

The frustration of desired celibacy haunts much HV apologetic.

Btw:

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a penetrating moral analysis of marriage and sexuality that will benefit any reader who rejects the secularist reduction of marriage as merely a union that sanctions sexual activity between partners

the reduction of marriage to merely a means of breeding isn't better.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception.

There is the action of using the artificially man made thermometer and the charts. You are actively using those artificially man made unnatural objects to avoid having children. You are actively making use of several different unnatural tools and measurements to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

Those things are not interfering with the sexual act. The act itself remains unchanged.

intercourse with a woman on the pill is the same as intercourse with a pregnant woman. The act itself remains unchanged.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As Anscombe mentions in the article, when Catholics talk about "unnatural" things they do not simply mean things that are artificial, but also thing that go against the moral standards dictated by natural law.

and what do you do if detected?Alas, no. Hence the moral dilemmas of war.

You can't just say "nope" and leave it at that. Make your case as to why both situations are morally equivalent.

when you haven't made your argument that they are not?

Risking detection compromises the mission, in wartime the absolute good and your life-and the mission-is in immediate danger every moment of the mission, where time is of the essence. Hence the problem of the circumstances of war artificially creating such scenarios, and hence the moral dilemmas of war.

Your scenario makes a moral difference only if you escape detection. If you are discovered, or the mission fails because of lost time, your moral niceties utterly fail.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 03:56:33 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Only the mentality which dreams up the Corban of annullments could dream up such a paragraph. She seems to deny the fact that children can and are produced from reproductive types of act outside of marriage all the time (whether they should is another issue). Would she argue, for instance, that woman-on-top or dorsal intercourse "turn[s ] intercourse into something other than the reproductive type of act"? Because the Stoic philosophy which formed the basis of HV's position and the meagre patristics and canons which nurtured it argued just that.

People shouldn't marry to have children: that renders the husband a sperm donor and the wife a baby maker. Marriage should result in children, but they are the result, not the aim, of the marriage. Her argument, as other apologists for HV, reduce couples to breeders.

Lord willing, I'll return to this later. But in the meantime, her dismissive parenthesis do not dispense of the objection: every intercourse would have to be reproductive for her to be correct. Once you allow "types" of the act, contraception (artificial or natural) has its license.

This last statement of yours makes me wonder if you really read the article. Anscombe is very clear in explaining that marriage does not exist solely for the procreation of children

Not convincingly and only half heartedly. See my post above commenting on the frustration of desired celibacy haunting much HV apologetic. Her "clarity" doesn't rise above procreation as the only excuse for marriage.

but that this is a key part of marriage that should not be removed from marriage. There can me more than one aim of marriage, and procreation is one of these reasons. The fact that there are other reasons as well does not negate this.

I would find it more convincing if those who give it pre-eminence didn't also praise "white marriage" "virgin marriage" (or any other number of terms when the couple marry with the intention never to consumate). Anscombe doesn't, at least not here, but the patristics she is forced to depend to make her argument do.

Again, the problem is that most if not almost all marriages that use contraception don't remove children from the marriage, as they have children. HV itself realizes this dilemma for its argument:

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Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good,” it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

Alas! Pope Paul might deny it validity, but that doesn't make it so (especially since he failed to exercise the much vaunted "infallibility" of the "magisterium" and speak "ex cathedral" when denying that validity). Especially when he hasn't established that a married couple using a condom, for instance, is an evil at all, let alone lesser or greater.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception.

There is the action of using the artificially man made thermometer and the charts. You are actively using those artificially man made unnatural objects to avoid having children. You are actively making use of several different unnatural tools and measurements to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

Those things are not interfering with the sexual act. The act itself remains unchanged.

They are being actively used to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

Turning to chastity not in the narrower sense but in the sense in which it is simply the virtue connected with sex, the Christian Church has always set its face against contraception from the earliest time as a grave breach of chastity. It inherited from Israel the objection to "base ways of copulating for the avoidance of conception", to quote St Augustine. In a document of the third century a Christian author wrote of the use of contraceptives by freeborn Christian women of Rome. These women sometimes married slaves so as to have Christian husbands but they were under a severe temptation because if the father was a slave the child was a slave by Roman law and this was a deterrent to having children; and they practised some form of contraception. This was the occasion of the earliest recorded explicit Christian observation on the subject. The author writes like a person mentioning a practice which Christians at large must obviously regard as shameful.

this paragraph is so choked full of factual errors that its no wonder that she was misled.

First, in Roman law, in contrast to the English Common law that Anscombe evidently did assUme to be universal, status was inherited from the mother, not the father (as in English law: it wasn't until the American colonies passed legislation adopting Partus sequitur ventrem (Latin "that which is brought forth follows the womb") from Roman civil law in 1662 that it entered English law, which comported with Roman legal theory, which held slavery was not a natural state but a convention universally adopted and subject to local civil law). In fact, if a woman was free for a single moment from conception to birth, the child was freeborn, regardless of the mother's status before conception or after birth. Such a colossal blunder commits a fatal error in her argument here.

Of course, she doesn't identify said "document of the third century,' so we can't analyze it much. All that I have seen condemn abortion and abortifacients. But not all contraception is abortifacient. In fact, as an abortifacient has to have a conception to occur in order to work, contraception and abortifaceints are two different things-which HV and its supporters continue to insist on conflating.

"It inherited from Israel the objection to "base ways of copulating for the avoidance of conception", to quote St Augustine." Unfortunately, she can't quote the rabbis on it: the Talmud bears the mark of being written by married men, and they allow quite a lot. Orthodox Jews, for instance, aren't bothered by using the pill, and it hasn't led to a plague of promiscuity among them (in fact, the genetic studies on the Levites/Cohens has led to pride among the Jews on their wives fidelity: since it traces lineage in the male line, the fact that non-Levite women married to Levites/Cohens have born genetically Levites/Cohens some took as indication of this fidelity).

"the Christian Church has always set its face against contraception from the earliest time as a grave breach of chastity" Oh? Hard to tell as, unlike abortion which has been vigorously opposed by Christians ever since the time of the Apostles and explicitly so, contraception (as opposed to abortifaicents) is barely mentioned in passing, if indeed mentioned at all, let alone condemned.

I perhaps should say that I have a nagging doubt about her logic on chastity being to sex what courage is to danger. Courage doesn't embrace danger like chastity embraces sex in marriage.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception.

There is the action of using the artificially man made thermometer and the charts. You are actively using those artificially man made unnatural objects to avoid having children. You are actively making use of several different unnatural tools and measurements to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

Those things are not interfering with the sexual act. The act itself remains unchanged.

They are being actively used to defeat the primary purpose of marriage.

Only if the primary purpose of marriage is to have babies. I don't believe this to be the case.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

One of the common arguments I hear from my Catholic friends against Orthodoxy's claim to truth is that most of the major Christian heresies came out of the East, and Rome was the bulwark of truth.

I think the most obvious response to this argument is that we would expect to see most heresies come out of the East because that is where most Christians were. How else would you respond to this argument?

At the beginning of this thread I brought up the Robber Council, and I would like to return to it. Roman Catholic apologists often point to this council to argue that the Bishop of Rome's opposition to the council is the only reason it was overturned, and if the Church really operated as Orthodox Christians claim, this council would have been added to the deposit of faith. How would you respond to this argument?

I think the most obvious response to this argument is that we would expect to see most heresies come out of the East because that is where most Christians were. How else would you respond to this argument?

State of education and culture. People in the West did not understand those theological discussions.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

2) According to the Church Fathers who spoke against contraception, any attempt to have sex while getting around or making less likely the chance of getting pregnant wasn't ok. It didn't matter if it was a barrier of some type, a chemical, or a "natural" timing method. Every single one of them who spoke against NFP as a form of contraception. Now not all Fathers spoke against contraception, but if you are going to follow the ones that did in speaking strenuously against it (Sts. Gregory the Great, Augustine, Jerome, etc.), then I suggest being consistent and rejecting both the Roman Catholics and Orthodox modern approaches to it. Having said that, you may want to put your foot in the water to test it before you do so. Once you jump in the water and find out the position of the ancient Christians on all manner of sexual and social morals, you may wish you hadn't been so eager. That was my experience, anyway.

It has been one of the most blessed and freeing experiences of my life to know that God made relations to be used only within marriage without frustration or avoidance in the bearing of children. For much of the world and man who seeks to be "like God" has been deceived by the evil one to worship frustrated procreation and thus destroy the human race. Contraception and NFP are both intrinsically evil, always and everywhere and I would die rather than betray the truth of that belief.

But we christians are different , we know the truth and we must live it and proclaim it and vigourously uphold it against those who are in error. This would include our own shepherds and pastors, whether roman catholic or orthodox, for in both the temptation of the evil one has been felt. Neither RC or Orthodox is able to dogmatize the use of contraception/NFP as morally good.

Quote

This is the Faith of the Apostles.This is the Faith of the Fathers.This is the Faith of the Orthodox.This is the Faith which has established the Universe.

Priest: “Therefore, with brotherly love, we praise these preachers of piety, for the glory and honor of their own pious struggles for the Faith, and we say: “Eternal be the memory of the champions of Orthodoxy, pious Emperors, most-holy Patriarchs, Hierarchs, Teachers, Martyrs, and Confessors.”

People: May their memory be eternal. (3)

Priest: “Let us entreat God, that we may be instructed and strengthened by the trials and struggles of these Saints, which they endured for the faith, even unto death, and by their teachings, entreating them that we may imitate their godly life unto the end. May we be deemed worthy of obtaining our requests through the mercy and grace of the Great and First Archpriest, Christ our God, through the intercessions of our glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, of the divine Angels, and of all the Saints.”

Quote

So once again, the main question of discussion is whether interfering with the act itself is immoral, or whether the end goal is the only factor for determining the morality of the issue.

The end goal would be the most important factor, however, to the extent that the use of natural family planning does not support giving monetary payment to the diabolical abominable industry of contraceptive manufacturers (most of which are not used in marriages), it could be said to be the slightly lesser of two evils. Additionally to the nature of NFP does make it easier to eventually realize than NFP itself is a compromise for the contraceptive mentality. Through NFP, it may perhaps more easily be realized that ALL forms of intentional frustration of children are equally wrong. However, to the extent that most of the Roman Catholic Church dioceses in the USA actively teach the use of NFP to all couples before they are married, it is little different in outcome. The outcome is no children either way.

End goals are always most important. Our end goal is Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.To avoid His desires, to avoid the sacrifices we are asked to make and to give in to satisfy lusts which may than give us notions to worship the father of lies, is certainly a bad end goal. (because by controlling conception we are deceive ourselves to be like God) If I were a priest and someone confessed to avoiding to have children I would pay no mind which method was used and precribe same penance.

"9. When Pope Paul VI declared Family Planning as immoral it is because it is an act of refusal of a creature to subject himself to his creator's Will and therefore an act that will prevent them from attaining their end of happiness in the vision of God.

10. This is the reason why it is difficult to sell the Billings and the Natural Family Planning methods to the Catholic populace. Compared to the condemnable methods there is no difference. All these methods are meant to frustrate the Will of the Creator and impose man's will on God.There is no difference except for the fact that one uses non-evasive ways while the other uses criminal ways. But the end of both, Pope Benedict states in his Compedium of the Catechism, are intrinsically evil. "I came not to do my will but the will of My Father in heaven." It is 'my will' versus 'God's will.' It is easy to understand this if we simply go back to the sin of the Lucifer and the sin of Adam and Eve. It is 'my will' versus 'God's Will.'"

« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 02:55:14 AM by Christopher McAvoy »

Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

One of the common arguments I hear from my Catholic friends against Orthodoxy's claim to truth is that most of the major Christian heresies came out of the East, and Rome was the bulwark of truth.

I think the most obvious response to this argument is that we would expect to see most heresies come out of the East because that is where most Christians were. How else would you respond to this argument?

At the beginning of this thread I brought up the Robber Council, and I would like to return to it. Roman Catholic apologists often point to this council to argue that the Bishop of Rome's opposition to the council is the only reason it was overturned, and if the Church really operated as Orthodox Christians claim, this council would have been added to the deposit of faith. How would you respond to this argument?

With facts: Pope Leo's opposition got nowhere, despite widespread opposition to it in the East, until the Emperor died and his successor came from among those opposed. Pope Leo wanted it in Italy. It was not. Pope Leo wanted his Tome accepted by the Council as its definition. It was not. In fact, his Tome was subject to inspection and was found Orthodox. They did not just see who wrote it and proclaimed it Orthodox.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

1) We see no historical record of Roman heresy;2) Therefore we believe Rome is supernaturally prevented from preaching heresy;3) Therefore, everything Rome says we take as orthodox;4) Therefore we classify all records of Roman teachings as orthodox regardless of what the rest of the Church teaches;5) Eventually these records become historical. Go back to (1).

Obviously, the real cause and beginning of the process is (4). Whenever Rome taught heresy and was called on it (4) comes into play reinforced by (1), (2) and (3).

One of the common arguments I hear from my Catholic friends against Orthodoxy's claim to truth is that most of the major Christian heresies came out of the East, and Rome was the bulwark of truth.

I think the most obvious response to this argument is that we would expect to see most heresies come out of the East because that is where most Christians were. How else would you respond to this argument?

At the beginning of this thread I brought up the Robber Council, and I would like to return to it. Roman Catholic apologists often point to this council to argue that the Bishop of Rome's opposition to the council is the only reason it was overturned, and if the Church really operated as Orthodox Christians claim, this council would have been added to the deposit of faith. How would you respond to this argument?

Logged

Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

2) According to the Church Fathers who spoke against contraception, any attempt to have sex while getting around or making less likely the chance of getting pregnant wasn't ok. It didn't matter if it was a barrier of some type, a chemical, or a "natural" timing method. Every single one of them who spoke against NFP as a form of contraception. Now not all Fathers spoke against contraception, but if you are going to follow the ones that did in speaking strenuously against it (Sts. Gregory the Great, Augustine, Jerome, etc.), then I suggest being consistent and rejecting both the Roman Catholics and Orthodox modern approaches to it. Having said that, you may want to put your foot in the water to test it before you do so. Once you jump in the water and find out the position of the ancient Christians on all manner of sexual and social morals, you may wish you hadn't been so eager. That was my experience, anyway.

It has been one of the most blessed and freeing experiences of my life to know that God made relations to be used only within marriage without frustration or avoidance in the bearing of children. For much of the world and man who seeks to be "like God" has been deceived by the evil one to worship frustrated procreation and thus destroy the human race. Contraception and NFP are both intrinsically evil, always and everywhere and I would die rather than betray the truth of that belief.

But we christians are different , we know the truth and we must live it and proclaim it and vigourously uphold it against those who are in error. This would include our own shepherds and pastors, whether roman catholic or orthodox, for in both the temptation of the evil one has been felt. Neither RC or Orthodox is able to dogmatize the use of contraception/NFP as morally good.

This is the Faith of the Apostles.This is the Faith of the Fathers.This is the Faith of the Orthodox.This is the Faith which has established the Universe.

Priest: “Therefore, with brotherly love, we praise these preachers of piety, for the glory and honor of their own pious struggles for the Faith, and we say: “Eternal be the memory of the champions of Orthodoxy, pious Emperors, most-holy Patriarchs, Hierarchs, Teachers, Martyrs, and Confessors.”

People: May their memory be eternal. (3)

Priest: “Let us entreat God, that we may be instructed and strengthened by the trials and struggles of these Saints, which they endured for the faith, even unto death, and by their teachings, entreating them that we may imitate their godly life unto the end. May we be deemed worthy of obtaining our requests through the mercy and grace of the Great and First Archpriest, Christ our God, through the intercessions of our glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, of the divine Angels, and of all the Saints.”

Quote

So once again, the main question of discussion is whether interfering with the act itself is immoral, or whether the end goal is the only factor for determining the morality of the issue.

The end goal would be the most important factor, however, to the extent that the use of natural family planning does not support giving monetary payment to the diabolical abominable industry of contraceptive manufacturers (most of which are not used in marriages)

those would be the same who manufacture Viagra etc., blood pressure pills, and other life savers.

Through NFP, it may perhaps more easily be realized that ALL forms of intentional frustration of children are equally wrong. However, to the extent that most of the Roman Catholic Church dioceses in the USA actively teach the use of NFP to all couples before they are married, it is little different in outcome. The outcome is no children either way.

Of course, many-the vast majority?-of those who use contraception, including "NFP", do have children. I can't think of anyone I know who did who didn't have children.

End goals are always most important. Our end goal is Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.To avoid His desires, to avoid the sacrifices we are asked to make and to give in to satisfy lusts which may than give us notions to worship the father of lies, is certainly a bad end goal. (because by controlling conception we are deceive ourselves to be like God)

If I were a priest and someone confessed to avoiding to have children I would pay no mind which method was used and precribe same penance.

Good thing you aren't then.

Btw, I just came across an illustrative-and amuzing-example of wisdom from Mt. Athos (and I don't quote from Athos all that much):

Quote

Elder Porphyrios of AthensTo begin with, when I first started to hear confessions, I used to really “scald” those who came to make confession. I used to have at my side Saint Nikodemos’s Confessor’s Guide (Exomologitarion) when someone would come for confession. If he confessed a serious sin then I would look up the book and would see that it wrote: “Not to receive Holy Communion for eighteen years.” I didn’t know; I was inexperienced. And so I imposed the corresponding penance. Whatever the book said was law. But then the people would come back the following year—they would come from various places, from various villages, from far and near—and when I asked them, “How long is it since you made confession?’ they would answer, “I confessed to you this time last year.” Then I would ask, “And what did I tell you?” They would reply, “You told me to do a hundred prostrations every night.”

“And did you do them?”

“No.”

“Why not?”

“Well, you told me that I couldn’t receive Communion for eighteen years so I thought to myself, Since I’m damned anyway, I might as well forget about the whole thing.”

I'm sorry, but I laughed during Great and Holy Week.

Quote

You understand? Then another person would come and say the same thing. So I thought, “What do I do now?” It was then I began to become a little wiser. The confessor has the power to bind and to loose. I remembered one of Saint Basil’s Rules, and I took that as my basic guideline and changed my tactics in confession. The Rule says: “He who receives the power to bind and to loose, when he sees the great remorse of one of the sinners, let him reduce the time of the penance. Don’t let him judge the penances in terms of time, but in terms of disposition.”

And so I started to encourage the people to read the poetic canons written in honor of the saints, to read short prayers, to make prostrations and to read Holy Scripture. And in that way they began to pay attention to the things of our religion. Their hearts were softened and without any external prompting they desired to observe the fasts, to enter the spiritual arena and to come to know Christ. And one thing I have understood is that when someone comes to know Christ and love Him and is loved by Christ, everything thereafter proceeds well in holiness and joy and everything is easy.

"9. When Pope Paul VI declared Family Planning as immoral it is because it is an act of refusal of a creature to subject himself to his creator's Will and therefore an act that will prevent them from attaining their end of happiness in the vision of God.

If a man handled his household finances as is advocated here for his creation/enlargement of his household, he would be condemned as improvident. Indeed, tempting God.

10. This is the reason why it is difficult to sell the Billings and the Natural Family Planning methods to the Catholic populace. Compared to the condemnable methods there is no difference. All these methods are meant to frustrate the Will of the Creator and impose man's will on God.

There is no difference except for the fact that one uses non-evasive ways while the other uses criminal ways. But the end of both, Pope Benedict states in his Compedium of the Catechism, are intrinsically evil. "I came not to do my will but the will of My Father in heaven." It is 'my will' versus 'God's will.' It is easy to understand this if we simply go back to the sin of the Lucifer and the sin of Adam and Eve. It is 'my will' versus 'God's Will.'"

If that were the case, every act of intercourse would result in a conception.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

1) We see no historical record of Roman heresy;2) Therefore we believe Rome is supernaturally prevented from preaching heresy;3) Therefore, everything Rome says we take as orthodox;4) Therefore we classify all records of Roman teachings as orthodox regardless of what the rest of the Church teaches;5) Eventually these records become historical. Go back to (1).

Obviously, the real cause and beginning of the process is (4). Whenever Rome taught heresy and was called on it (4) comes into play reinforced by (1), (2) and (3).

One of the common arguments I hear from my Catholic friends against Orthodoxy's claim to truth is that most of the major Christian heresies came out of the East, and Rome was the bulwark of truth.

I think the most obvious response to this argument is that we would expect to see most heresies come out of the East because that is where most Christians were. How else would you respond to this argument?

At the beginning of this thread I brought up the Robber Council, and I would like to return to it. Roman Catholic apologists often point to this council to argue that the Bishop of Rome's opposition to the council is the only reason it was overturned, and if the Church really operated as Orthodox Christians claim, this council would have been added to the deposit of faith. How would you respond to this argument?

There is also the problem that the largest heresy in history, Ultramontanism, was dogmatized at Rome, the bulwark of this heresy.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As Anscombe mentions in the article, when Catholics talk about "unnatural" things they do not simply mean things that are artificial, but also thing that go against the moral standards dictated by natural law.

VERY IMPORTANT and I'm glad you recognize this. Much of the polemics directed against the natural law has to do with a mistake in what Catholics even mean by the term. There are several posters on this forum who I have corrected over their erroneous understanding of the term "natural" in the context of natural law theory, and yet the continue to beat away at the straw man of their own making.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

VERY IMPORTANT and I'm glad you recognize this. Much of the polemics directed against the natural law has to do with a mistake in what Catholics even mean by the term. There are several posters on this forum who I have corrected over their erroneous understanding of the term "natural" in the context of natural law theory, and yet the continue to beat away at the straw man of their own making.

Yes, papist, in my own estimation, Fr. George Morelli a few years ago, himself made a mistake about natural law , viewing it as some overly RC philosophical approach that is flawed. I dont know how these bias occur. Natural law is our friend.

(All other quotes from ialmisry)

Quote

I can't remember: are you married?

Wouldn't you like to know?

Quote

"As it isn't the subject of dogma, of course not."

Too many Roman Catholics treat the subject of NFP as if it is a revealed dogma of Vat II (some even tracing it back to curial statements in mid 19th c.) with which no legitimate objections can possibly therefore be raised. Thankfully a decent number of them do realize it is not a dogma and is a newer idea and therefore suspect.

Quote

All very nice, but not on point. Like HV.

Yes it may see off topic, posting the statements from the liturgy for the triumph of orthodoxy against heresy is my way of emphasizing that contraception is a serious error which rightfully ought to be seen as a heresy. I think very little of humane vitae, it is displays weak leadership and without enough traditional teaching at a time when such a thing was badly needed as it continues to be needed today. Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church both have weakness in bishops leading their flock with vigourous dynamism to preserve the family and christian culture.

Quote

those would be the same who manufacture Viagra etc., blood pressure pills, and other life savers.

Are there any Orthodox christians, priest or clergy whoapprove of chemical methods of birth control ? I do not know any. Their unintentional abortifacient qualities being one of the reasons.

"According to Bloomberg, recently unsealed FDA documents show that Bayer neglected to pass along reports of blood clots to the agency in a 2004 safety review of Yasmin. Says former FDA commissioner David Kessler, "Bayer presented a selective view of the data, and that presentation obscured the potential risks associated with Yasmin." The Bloomberg coverage includes a lot of phrases you never want in an article about your company, like "The FDA told Bayer in June 2003 that it was 'very concerned' about the number of adverse events, particularly deaths," and a section titled "10,000 Lawsuits." So ..."http://jezebel.com/5865584/how-evil-is-your-birth-control-manufacturer

Quote

A concept which seems to have been conceived in the '90s-I don't think I've seen any evidence predating then.A nice buzz word. All buzz, no meaning.

I fail to see how the phrase "contraceptive mentality" has no meaning. If it is a recent term it is because the extent with which contraceptives have tempted those in christian societies (or whatever remnant there is), has not existed in western/eastern european type culture for many centuries.

"Fighting ‘contraceptive mentality’ is ‘essential’ for the culture of life: Cardinal Raymond Burke, March 18, 2011Restoring the “respect for the integrity of the conjugal act” and correcting the contraceptive mentality that “fears procreation,” is “fundamental” to the New Evangelization and its effort to transform Western culture, said Cardinal Raymond Burke, prefect of the Vatican’s Apostolic Signatura, earlier this month."

Quote

Of course, many-the vast majority?-of those who use contraception, including "NFP", do have children. I can't think of anyone I know who did who didn't have children

One or two children certainly they may hacve, but where are the couples having the amount of children that were average throughout human history, say 6 children? Both my grandparents had 5 children, this was common for Orthodox or Roman Catholic families 100 years ago.

Quote

So you don't think conceiving children is like God.

Children are gifts from God, we are at God's mercy when freely are open to conceiving them.We are not at his mercy and move farther away from God when we avoid them.

Quote

Quote from: Christopher McAvoy on Yesterday at 02:28:56 AMIf I were a priest and someone confessed to avoiding to have children I would pay no mind which method was used and precribe same penance.

Quote

Good thing you aren't then.

The more my patience is tried by people, in need of the truth, the more motivated I am to consider potentially seeking to serve my bishop in that capacity. You don't have to worry it won't be anytime soon and not in Chicago area Try confessing to Fr. Patrick Reardon someday and see what he thinks about your comments.

Quote

I'm sorry, but I laughed during Great and Holy Week.

I understand the point about despair, there is no need to give someone despair with their penance, to show them the example by introducing them to those who are living in a Godly way will give them hope that they to - despite seeming difficult - may successfully follow the ten commandments. Scrupolousity does not need to discourage us from hope. God is always merciful, we may continue trying again until the end. We do the best we can with our fallen nature.

Quote

If a man handled his household finances as is advocated here for his creation/enlargement of his household, he would be condemned as improvident. Indeed, tempting God.

This mixes apples with oranges, there is no greed involved in having children. More children bring in more money for a family run business or farm.

Quote

Then condemn the monastics who do not use their God given fertility.

Monastics do not have marital relations ...you are being silly.

Quote

If that were the case, every act of intercourse would result in a conception.

To accept the state of life as it is without frustrating God's role in our life is not sinful, it is meet and right.Some conceptions result in conception, some do not, to view what is a gift from God as either - a "right" we demand to have - or a "curse" which we demand to not have are equally mistaken.

When people relax and and contine traditional family and social lifestyles they find there is far less to fear from it than may be imagined.What first appears as the "hard way" is truly the "easy way".On Good Friday this is evident. Christ humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 01:52:53 AM by Christopher McAvoy »

Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

As Anscombe mentions in the article, when Catholics talk about "unnatural" things they do not simply mean things that are artificial, but also thing that go against the moral standards dictated by natural law.

VERY IMPORTANT and I'm glad you recognize this. Much of the polemics directed against the natural law has to do with a mistake in what Catholics even mean by the term. There are several posters on this forum who I have corrected over their erroneous understanding of the term "natural" in the context of natural law theory, and yet the continue to beat away at the straw man of their own making.

the artifice of "natural law" is one of its adherents making, which they impose on nature.

As such, "natural law" dictates no standards, and it stands-or rather falls-as an erroneous understanding of nature.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

VERY IMPORTANT and I'm glad you recognize this. Much of the polemics directed against the natural law has to do with a mistake in what Catholics even mean by the term. There are several posters on this forum who I have corrected over their erroneous understanding of the term "natural" in the context of natural law theory, and yet the continue to beat away at the straw man of their own making.

Yes, papist, in my own estimation, Fr. George Morelli a few years ago, himself made a mistake about natural law , viewing it as some overly RC philosophical approach that is flawed. I dont know how these bias occur. Natural law is our friend.

(All other quotes from ialmisry)

Quote

I can't remember: are you married?

Wouldn't you like to know?

I personally couldn't care less, except that I have noticed an increase in dogmatism on such issues the more they remain just theory for the advocate.

Too many Roman Catholics treat the subject of NFP as if it is a revealed dogma of Vat II (some even tracing it back to curial statements in mid 19th c.) with which no legitimate objections can possibly therefore be raised. Thankfully a decent number of them do realize it is not a dogma and is a newer idea and therefore suspect.

Quote

All very nice, but not on point. Like HV.

Yes it may see off topic, posting the statements from the liturgy for the triumph of orthodoxy against heresy is my way of emphasizing that contraception is a serious error which rightfully ought to be seen as a heresy.

there is no allusion, let alone a reference, to contraception in the services of the Triumph of Orthodoxy.

I think very little of humane vitae, it is displays weak leadership and without enough traditional teaching at a time when such a thing was badly needed as it continues to be needed today. Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church both have weakness in bishops leading their flock with vigourous dynamism to preserve the family and christian culture.

One thing HV does manage to do is assert the authority of their "magisterium."

"According to Bloomberg, recently unsealed FDA documents show that Bayer neglected to pass along reports of blood clots to the agency in a 2004 safety review of Yasmin. Says former FDA commissioner David Kessler, "Bayer presented a selective view of the data, and that presentation obscured the potential risks associated with Yasmin." The Bloomberg coverage includes a lot of phrases you never want in an article about your company, like "The FDA told Bayer in June 2003 that it was 'very concerned' about the number of adverse events, particularly deaths," and a section titled "10,000 Lawsuits." So ..."http://jezebel.com/5865584/how-evil-is-your-birth-control-manufacturer

Bayer, isn't that the stuff we take to prevent heart attacks and strokes?

A concept which seems to have been conceived in the '90s-I don't think I've seen any evidence predating then.A nice buzz word. All buzz, no meaning.

I fail to see how the phrase "contraceptive mentality" has no meaning. If it is a recent term it is because the extent with which contraceptives have tempted those in christian societies (or whatever remnant there is), has not existed in western/eastern european type culture for many centuries.

Then we should find "contraceptive mentality" discussed and condemned in the earliest Fathers.

I also suspect that you would be hard pressed to substantiate your assertion about the existence-or lack thereof-of such "temptation."

"Fighting ‘contraceptive mentality’ is ‘essential’ for the culture of life: Cardinal Raymond Burke, March 18, 2011Restoring the “respect for the integrity of the conjugal act” and correcting the contraceptive mentality that “fears procreation,” is “fundamental” to the New Evangelization and its effort to transform Western culture, said Cardinal Raymond Burke, prefect of the Vatican’s Apostolic Signatura, earlier this month."

We dont' have cardinals.

Odd that a hiearchy that pushes and mandates celibacy gets incensed about the integrity of acts that are supposed to be outside their experience. But then again, there's that dogma/theory ratio I mentioned above.

Of course, many-the vast majority?-of those who use contraception, including "NFP", do have children. I can't think of anyone I know who did who didn't have children

One or two children certainly they may hacve, but where are the couples having the amount of children that were average throughout human history, say 6 children? Both my grandparents had 5 children, this was common for Orthodox or Roman Catholic families 100 years ago.

It was also common to bury half of them until recently. My great grandparents had 7, and were lucky in that they only had to bury 2. My grandparents had 5 (that I know of) and only had to bury one. Things got quite different about a hundred years ago, when you could come to expect to see each child you have have children.

Quote from: Christopher McAvoy on Yesterday at 02:28:56 AMIf I were a priest and someone confessed to avoiding to have children I would pay no mind which method was used and precribe same penance.

Quote

Good thing you aren't then.

The more my patience is tried by people, in need of the truth, the more motivated I am to consider potentially seeking to serve my bishop in that capacity. You don't have to worry it won't be anytime soon and not in Chicago area Try confessing to Fr. Patrick Reardon someday and see what he thinks about your comments.

Not sure losing patience is a calling to the priesthood.We've exchanged words. Why do you bring him up?

I understand the point about despair, there is no need to give someone despair with their penance, to show them the example by introducing them to those who are living in a Godly way will give them hope that they to - despite seeming difficult - may successfully follow the ten commandments. Scrupolousity does not need to discourage us from hope. God is always merciful, we may continue trying again until the end. We do the best we can with our fallen nature.

Quote

If a man handled his household finances as is advocated here for his creation/enlargement of his household, he would be condemned as improvident. Indeed, tempting God.

This mixes apples with oranges, there is no greed involved in having children. More children bring in more money for a family run business or farm.

LOL. Meditate on how your last sentence contradicts the preceding one.

When people relax and and contine traditional family and social lifestyles they find there is far less to fear from it than may be imagined.What first appears as the "hard way" is truly the "easy way".On Good Friday this is evident. Christ humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 03:49:44 AM by ialmisry »

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As Anscombe mentions in the article, when Catholics talk about "unnatural" things they do not simply mean things that are artificial, but also thing that go against the moral standards dictated by natural law.

VERY IMPORTANT and I'm glad you recognize this. Much of the polemics directed against the natural law has to do with a mistake in what Catholics even mean by the term. There are several posters on this forum who I have corrected over their erroneous understanding of the term "natural" in the context of natural law theory, and yet the continue to beat away at the straw man of their own making.

the artifice of "natural law" is one of its adherents making, which they impose on nature.

As such, "natural law" dictates no standards, and it stands-or rather falls-as an erroneous understanding of nature.

Just as a reminder, we have dealt several times with what the Vatican "means by the term", e.g.:

The "Natural Law" is a tricky thing. We had a dairy farm and while I never saw either bulls or cows giving one another oral size, it was not uncommon to see bulls enjoying anal sex with one another. It seems to be part of the Natural Law and certainly I cannot see any way to lecture them on morality and perusade them to see it as evil and contrary to the Natural Law.

Now that is just stupid, as bulls don't have a rational nature, and so there is no issue of morality with regard to how they use their bodies. Wow Fr. A. I expected better from you.... Oh wait. No I didn't.

Did you expect more of St. Gregory? The quote trawls for Humanae Vitae always quote him, but I haven't seen them with this quote from him

"Why, even unreasoning beasts know enough not to mate at certain times. To indulge in intercourse without intending children is to outrage nature, whom should take as our instructor." (The Instructor 2.10).

If we were to follow this advice from Saint Gregory, are you suggesting that when the female of our species is not in a fertile period that males should turn to other males as happens in nature? I know that one enquirer here may agree, at least in broad principle, but I am not sure if the Church would accept that reasoning.

Yet further demonstrating the "Natural Law" of the Scholastics as the grotesque combination of pin-headed (literally) theory with natural philosophy which formed the materialism of the Stoics, something latter documented in full:

I just noticed that we don't have the official (or semi-official, or infallible, or authoritiative-we can't get a straight answer on what exactly is the status of the CCC in the hierarchy of certitude) definition of natural law:

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I. The Natural Moral Law

1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good.

The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:

The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted. (Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum, 597)

1955 The "divine and natural" law (GS 89 # 1) shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. the natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one's equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called "natural," not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:

Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring. (St. Augustine, De Trin. 14, 15, 21: PL 42,1052)

The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation. (St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. I)

1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense .... To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely. (Cicero, Rep. III, 22, 33)

!Quoting the Stoic as its authority, the Vatican reveals the origin of its "Natural Law."

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1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.

1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;(Cf. GS 10) it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. the rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface. (St. Augustine, Conf. 2, 4, 9: PL 32, 678)

1959 The natural law, the Creator's very good work, provides the solid foundation on which man can build the structure of moral rules to guide his choices. It also provides the indispensable moral foundation for building the human community. Finally, it provides the necessary basis for the civil law with which it is connected, whether by a reflection that draws conclusions from its principles, or by additions of a positive and juridical nature.

1960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error." (Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005) The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.

I note that in the last reference (Humani generis) Pope Pius XII of Rome took a swipe at us existentialists. Oh well. I would like to know how he, the CCC and the rest of the Vatican would distinguish this clinging to Natural Law from the foolishness of the Judaizers of the Galatians..

To give another definition:

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the natural law is the rule of conduct which is prescribed to us by the Creator in the constitution of the nature with which He has endowed us

What's your point? St. Gregory had a mistaken view about a matter that pertains to emperical science.

You mean this matter

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Clement of Alexandria"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid., 2:10:95:3). NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827permission to publish this work is hereby granted. +Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Where he was not mistaken in is that it is not proper to human nature (again, not the law of the junle) to engage in homosexual acts. Another swing and a miss for you isa.

Another misread for you Papist.

I didn't quote St. Clement on homosexual acts. Unless you are calling a man ejaculating into a woman during her unfertile period a homosexual act.

The sad little fact is that St. Clement goes in great detail, as does Mr. Conte, into the marital act with the viewpoint of animal husbandary, making a visit to the sperm bank the height of romance. And because they go into such detail-your Aquinas depending on St. Clement and your friend Mr. Conte following Aquinas-there is no mistake on the iron clad connection between them, forging links that bind your "natural law." St. Clement cites the "law of the jungle" as you call it as the proof of natural law at work in nature:males should not penetrate females unless the latter are fertile. To do so is an "unnatural act" "outraging nature." Or so the foundations of your "natural law" would have it. The Fathers of your action theory leave no room for ANY unitive act without being procreative, as Mr. Conte amply demonstrates. That, and no theory "that if something happens in nature, then it is “natural”, and what is “natural” is, therefore good," is the correct thinking of Orthodox #265.

Making vague allusions to anonymous Orthodox purported authorities of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is not the same as speaking of or for the Catholic Church. Our Head said "you must shout from the rooftops."

I have posted what your Vatican says about Natural Law. I understand it. Because I understand it, I reject it. My rejection does not obviate my understanding.

I'm sorry that I do not have that mystical decoder ring which has the key that you insist will give the clue to unlock rejection of the plain language the Vatican has put out on your "natural law."

Your Vatican claims that their is a natural law which can be accessed by reason to build up moral theology, the same way scientific realists claim that their science is built up from their accessing reality through observation. Both are wrong. And the determinism and action theory of human procreation of HV's natural law theorists is as wrong as the theory of natural selection in "the Origin of Species" of social darwinists.

No. Natural law is not a law accessed by reason alone. Natural law is what we are able to know about HUMAN nature based upon revealed truth/Scripture and Tradition.

You have an odd definition of revelation, one that does not comport with what your Vatican has to say about it:

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Meaning of revelationRevelation may be defined as the communication of some truth by God to a rational creature through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

Natural law is what we are able to discern about creation based upon revealed truth and the illumination of grace.

That's not what your Vatican says:

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Natural LawOur knowledge of the lawFounded in our nature and revealed to us by our reason, the moral law is known to us in the measure that reason brings a knowledge of it home to our understanding. Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.

Natural law is not a law accessed by reason alone. Natural law is what we are able to know about HUMAN nature based upon revealed truth/Scripture and Tradition. Natural law is what we are able to discern about creation based upon revealed truth and the illumination of grace.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The official position of the Greek Orthodox Church was set forth in an encyclical of the Greek bishops signed by ArchbishopChrysostom of Athens with 55 other bishops. "Encyclical of the Hierarchy of Greece." October 14, 1937. , which recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception. It condemned both contraception and abortion as threats to family life and acts against God's will. It recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception.

Orthodox Christians "accept" contraception with the same peril as everyone else. It is an objective evil. Do not let modern obfuscation deceive you as to the timeless teaching of the Church.

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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

The official position of the Greek Orthodox Church was set forth in an encyclical of the Greek bishops signed by ArchbishopChrysostom of Athens with 55 other bishops. "Encyclical of the Hierarchy of Greece." October 14, 1937. , which recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception. It condemned both contraception and abortion as threats to family life and acts against God's will. It recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception.

Orthodox Christians "accept" contraception with the same peril as everyone else. It is an objective evil. Do not let modern obfuscation deceive you as to the timeless teaching of the Church.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

The official position of the Greek Orthodox Church was set forth in an encyclical of the Greek bishops signed by ArchbishopChrysostom of Athens with 55 other bishops. "Encyclical of the Hierarchy of Greece." October 14, 1937. , which recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception. It condemned both contraception and abortion as threats to family life and acts against God's will. It recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception.

Orthodox Christians "accept" contraception with the same peril as everyone else. It is an objective evil. Do not let modern obfuscation deceive you as to the timeless teaching of the Church.

Yes, we have discussed this encyclical which no one seems to be able to produce for inspection. E.g.:

[There is a reference to it being issued October 14, 1937, Archbishop Chrystodoulos and 55 other bishops signing this "Encyclical of the Hiearchy of Greece" The foundations of Christian bioethics By Hugo Tristram Engelhardt

We had tracked down the reference to Engelhardt previously but it is far from convincing and he gives no reference at all as to where he has sighted this supposed 1937 Encylical.

The practice of artificial birth control - by which is meant "the pill," condoms, or any other kind of device - is actually condemned by the Orthodox Church. The Church of Greece, for example, in 1937 issued a special encyclical just for this purpose, to condemn birth control.

Anyone have the particulars of this 1937 encyclical?

Over many years people have sought this claimed 1937 Encyclical when it has been mentioned in contraception discussions. All searches have proved to be only wild goose chases and the Encyclical seems to be a piece of mythology.

A direct approach to Fr Ambrose (Alexey Young) revealed that he himself has never sighted it and has no personal knowledge of it.

What is not clear is what it actually said, except that condemned contraception for selfish purposes and eliminating procreation from marriage. The note is for this

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For example, if one in any way limits the number of children in order to live lavishly, one acts against the spirit of the Gospel. Such an ethos of reproduction does not aim at humbly, selflessly, and ascetically pursuing holiness. The contraceptive ethos directs marriage away from the cardinal goal of all human life; pursuit of union with God. It directs one's life to oneself, not to God. Out of all these considerations and more, Christian marriage is not to be taken for self-satisfaction. To the contrary, marriage involves a form of pleasant ascetic struggle of mutual love and sacrifice: a joyful companionship of spouse and children in the pursuit of holiness. Husband and wife are called to turn away from self-love through love of each other and of God. They are called to be chaste with respect to eschewing sexual acts with others and to turn with love to each other and their children. In all of this, they are like martyrs; they are to die to their passions. In this context, the decision to limit children because of health or due to limited familial or societal resources need not suffer from a misdirection of energies; it can be make out of love of others and with humility before God.Despite detalied considerations of sexual offenses by ecumenical councils, and by generally accepted local councils, and despite a recognition that marriage is orientated toward reproduction, there is no condemnation of limiting births, apart from the condemnation of abortion...

A little further down, footnote 102 says something cogent:

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The differnce between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic views regarding contraception lie in the first being primarily articulated in terms of an asceticism directed to approaching holiness and the second being directed to confroming to impersonal norms.

"Objective evil." Your Scholasticism is showing. Don't let ancient ignorance deceive you at to the timeless teaching of the Church.

The practice of artificial birth control - by which is meant "the pill," condoms, or any other kind of device - is actually condemned by the Orthodox Church. The Church of Greece, for example, in 1937 issued a special encyclical just for this purpose, to condemn birth control.

Without impugning the integrity of Fr Alexey (now hieromonk Ambrose) Young's article nor himself personally (I have great respect for him), I have to say that this claimed 1937 Greek encyclical is one of the most elusive items on the planet. For years we have sought it and never found it. One would have thought that such a "special encyclical just for this purpose, to condemn birth control" would be readily available but no, nobody has ever been able to produce it.

It has only one mention in all the pile of literature on contaception, but beyond a mention there is not even the smallest quote from it...

Foundation of Christian BioethicsBy Hugo Tristram Engelhardt

page 298

Reference No. 96: Recent Orthodox reactions to the contraceptiveethos include the encyclical of the Greek bishops signed by ArchbishopChrysostom of Athens with 55 other bishops. "Encyclical of theHierarchy of Greece." October 14, 1937. The encyclical to the moralsea change in the view of marriage and sexuality introduced by thesecularization of the West and the introduction of effectivecontraception....etc.

I recall that Hugo Tristram Engelhardt is a Texan and a convert to Orthodoxy. The book "Foundation of Christian Bioethics" was published in 2000 and is his contribution to the Orthodox understanding of bioethics but I have never seen it quoted anywhere and wonder how well it has been accepted by the Orthodox.

Have any Orthodox members here heard of Engelhardt or read his book?

« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 12:21:49 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Thanks everyone for this discussion! You have given me a lot to think about. Because I fear I am making a poor argument for the Roman Catholic position I will appeal to the philosopher GEM Anscombe:

You are not making a poor argument, it is just a poor argument to make.

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In one word: Christianity taught that men ought to be as chaste as pagans thought honest women ought to be; the contraceptive morality teaches that women need to be as little chaste as pagans thought men need be.

An assertion which she begs throughout the piece. Again, in this she follows most apologists of HV, who seem to think contraception means "sex on demand" 24/7, and couples engaging in contraception are permanently joined at their hips (or thereabouts).

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And if there is nothing intrinsically wrong with contraceptive intercourse, and if it could become general practice everywhere when there is intercourse but ought to be no begetting, then it's very difficult to see the objection to this morality, for the ground of objection to fornication and adultery was that sexual intercourse is only right in the sort of set-up that typically provides children with a father and mother to care for them. If you can turn intercourse into something other than the reproductive type of act (I don't mean of course that every act is reproductive any more than every acorn leads to an oak-tree but it's the reproductive type of act) then why, if you can change it, should it be restricted to the married? Restricted, that is, to partners bound in a formal, legal, union whose fundamental purpose is the bringing up of children? For if that is not its fundamental purpose there is no reason why for example "marriage" should have to be between people of opposite sexes. But then, of course, it becomes unclear why you should have a ceremony, why you should have a formality at all. And so we must grant that children are in this general way the main point of the existence of such an arrangement. But if sexual union can be deliberately and totally divorced from fertility, then we may wonder why sexual union has got to be married union. If the expression of love between the partners is the point, then it shouldn't be so narrowly confined.

Only the mentality which dreams up the Corban of annullments could dream up such a paragraph. She seems to deny the fact that children can and are produced from reproductive types of act outside of marriage all the time (whether they should is another issue). Would she argue, for instance, that woman-on-top or dorsal intercourse "turn[s ] intercourse into something other than the reproductive type of act"? Because the Stoic philosophy which formed the basis of HV's position and the meagre patristics and canons which nurtured it argued just that.

People shouldn't marry to have children: that renders the husband a sperm donor and the wife a baby maker. Marriage should result in children, but they are the result, not the aim, of the marriage. Her argument, as other apologists for HV, reduce couples to breeders.

Rereading this, I was struck by the thought of the test-tube babies, artificial insemination, sperm donation, egg donation especially for the single and the homosexual nowadays... how much does all this fertility divorced from sexual union renders Anscombe's "logic" as utter absurdity.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth