BillThompson wrote:Those reaction vids, man, if ever there were a scathing indictment of how awful WWE overproduces their promos, there you have it. Each and every person, with the possible exception of Charlotte and Ziggler, sound natural and like they are real humans. Just step back WWE, let your talent fucking talk for themselves, the results will be much better, those videos show this to be true.

I beat this drum constantly but the over-produced, over-thought, over-the-top characters are such a passe part of major professional wrestling. With social media finally breaking down the barriers, we know who these people are, what they like, what makes them tick, who they are married to, etc. We know they have lives outside of the "UNIVERSE" yet WWE main roster is still stuck in that world and still wants to tell these types of stories and they just don't resonate with a modern audience whatsoever. If people want superheroes, they'll go watch one of the dozen superhero movies/Netflix Originals or whatever that are available to them at a moment's notice. I honestly believe wrestling fans want real people doing pro wrestling. Of course, you always need to turn the volume a little up, of course you need to play up portions of one's character but it's not that hard.

I think Kevin Owens is a great example of a post-social media heel done perfectly. He's a guy who laid out his family, his life right in front of you, you know his motivation, you know what drives him and that's him. On social media, he's pretty crass but that's fine, he's always rooted in his actual self and he maintains that persona on social media and on TV because, again, it's HIM. Sure, is he more surely on social than he is in real life, of course, but that's the art of it. Those promos, like you said Bill, prove once again how powerful humanizing pro wrestling characters can be. The rise of Daniel Bryan and how people attached to him in such a profound way is another one.

You just summed up A) why Daniel Bryan became so popular, and B) why WWE could never figure out why Daniel Bryan was so popular.

There's been a major shift in the past 15 (or more?) years away from celebrities being larger than life personalities to being (presented as) real people, whatever form that may take. That's why the Kardashians are some of the most famous people in the world in spite of not being famous for anything other than being famous. That's a horrible example as I assume just about everyone who reads this hates the Kardashians, but my point stands.

Maybe a better example is of how sports stars present themselves - people like Dwight Howard Jon Jones are despised for being 'fake' while people like Steph Curry or Donald Cerrone are praised for being real people. Daniel Bryan is a real person (I see the contradiction here). Kevin Owens is a real person. Dolph Ziggler is not. Roman Reigns is not. That's why Bryan and Owens are loved (or at least generate strong, genuine emotion) while Ziggler and Reigns are characters on a tv show.

If WWE ever figures that out, and how to properly present a modern product which acknowledges what people want out of wrestlers/characters/etc today, they might actually become fashionable again.

Re-watched Wrestling Road Diaries recently almost entirely because it was a pleasure to spend time with this guy, couldn't sleep one night and watched a 20 minute clip of him and Brie discussing their garden, once took a 7,000 mile round trip, solo, to watch Glory By Honor V headlined by him wrestling the best match I've ever seen live. Glad he had the career he had for as long as he had and that like Edge he'll step away early enough to enjoy life after. He had a peak higher than most and really very few valleys. Along with the great drama I always thought that him, and Liger, were far funnier in ring than they usually get credit for.

...also the Big E cast image of bearded babies running around the woods is a great one...

As Bryan Danielson delivered an emotional retirement speech last night, he stressed that he “loved [pro wrestling] in a way that I have never loved anything else.”

When reflecting on Danielson’s amazing career, there’s no denying that “The American Dragon’s” passion for competing in the ring was fueled in Ring of Honor, where he first rose to prominence and earned a reputation as the best wrestler in the world.

Danielson, who is walking away from the sport at the age of 34 because of concussion issues, was a perfect fit for ROH right from the start.

In 2002, a 20-year-old Danielson was looking for a place to showcase his technical wrestling and submission skills, and he found it in the fledgling company that emphasized in-ring ability and athleticism.

Regarded as a founding father of ROH, Danielson participated in the promotion’s first main event, a triple threat match against Low Ki and Christopher Daniels.

A little over two years later, he won the inaugural Survival of the Fittest Tournament by defeating Austin Aries in a six-way elimination match that also included Samoa Joe, Mark Briscoe, Homicide and Colt Cabana.

Two months after the tournament, Danielson and Aries met in a two-out-of-three falls match that went nearly 80 minutes and was among the best matches of 2004.

Also that year, Danielson scored one of the biggest victories of his career to that point when he forced CM Punk to tap out.

He reached the pinnacle of the sport in 2005 when he won the ROH World Championship from James Gibson. Danielson held the title for 462 days, the third-longest reign in company history, and he made 38 successful title defenses, a record he shares with current ROH matchmaker Nigel McGuinness.

Jesus, well that was a horrifying ESPN interview. I have a hunch he's not gonna be in the G1 anytime soon.

To segue a bit, if you're WWE do you look at Bryan's example and maybe put the brakes on some guy''s style? They're doing a little better job at letting guys wrestle the style they came in with (especially in NXT) and they definitely let Bryan go a mile-a-minute the last few years as he pushed towards the main event.

After the great neck-breaking German suplex binge of the early-to-mid 2000s (I mean, let's seriously reflect on the fact that they were letting STEVE AUSTIN with a shattered neck take a dozen rolling Germans in TV matches) they did a pretty good job at slowing down the style and re-training the audience in regards to high spots and finishing moves. Move sets got a lot more basic, moves were protected better, and guys just generally did less high spots.

That's changed some as there's a lot more dives and a lot more high impact stuff creeping in the last few years.

I wouldn't be shocked if this is becomes either an official change or an unofficial change about in-ring style (especially with every other wrestler on the IR).

Hagan wrote:Jesus, well that was a horrifying ESPN interview. I have a hunch he's not gonna be in the G1 anytime soon.

...

I wouldn't be shocked if this is becomes either an official change or an unofficial change about in-ring style (especially with every other wrestler on the IR).

I've been thinking about this a lot since the injuries really started piling up. And obviously it's an even bigger deal now Bryan's sadly retired. (I get the issue of concussions is slightly different than joint/muscle injuries and different styles of wrestling will be more likely to cause different issues.)

The WWE pace is definitely a hell of a lot quicker now than is used to be, largely with influence of indie guys having the same effect the WCW undercard had in the late 90s and particularly the early 00s.

They make a big deal that Cesaro 'moves like a cruiserweight' but he's only the most egregious example of that.

Here's Ryback doing a diving corksrew crossbody to the outside.

And here's Big E's spear to the outside.

(Shout out to RuRu for catching them both. Doubt Miz is gonna be taking them any time soon)

So you've got two guys, both of whom are around the 300lb mark, pretending they're on the undercard at Hallowe'en havoc.

Even John Cena, who's the epitome of the slower WWE style, seems to have decided to start auditioning for the Battle of Los Angeles with some of his matches against the indie darlings.

I don't even know how possible it is to go back. Once everyone's become accustomed to a faster style then trying to reintroduce a slower style becomes fraught with difficulty. It's like with TVs, I was happy with my 32" for years but now we've had a 40" for a few months now if you got me to watch something on a 32" I'd think you were projecting it onto a post-it note.

They have put the genie back in the box with no more chairshots to the head etc but this could prove a hell of a lot more difficult.

The longer I stew about the entire situation, the more bitter I become. Bryan was in the WWE for five years, and was a main eventer for less then a year. He was already the most popular guy on the roster, think about how much money he could have made them if they had treated him like a star from the get go. I don't blame WWE for him having to retire, but I definitely blame them for squandering him for years.

I agree that the pace that WWE guys go at now is fast but it ain't as fast when Kurt Angle was in the company along with Benoit and Eddie being alive. I pulled up a Smackdown from the Smackdown Six era and they were going at a pace that would Dolph Ziggler look like Dory Funk Jr. I think those guys pushed the work and pace as far as it can go in WWE. Once those guys were gone, the pace lessened a lot. They do more ridiculous stuff like the Big E and Ryback stuff but it's not to the level where the Smackdown Six were.