motherscratcher wrote:For me a roof wouldn't have been for the 8-10 times a year that the Browns were playing. It would have been for the other 355 days a year that someone could use it for... Whatever the fuck people have conventions for.

To talk about teeth.

Pittsburgh doesn't have a convention center.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

JCoz wrote:I didnt say I believed it, I was offering a possible reason that Heckert may not be retained.

I know, I was just using that as an opportunity to make a dig at a friend.

If Banner decided to get rid of ANY GM at this point of the season, he's a freakin' retard.

I've treid to dig google and others in theknow as best I could about Heckert & Banner. The results are still murkey. No one knows if there was a real falling out between these two specific men and they can't work together or if Heckert was collateral damage with Licht,which really was a political war and loser had to go.

Having said that, now is exactly the time to make the move if one is to be made. Waiting just creates another Mangina scenario. Moving now allows the scouting department to transition before the start of the college season and have the maximum amout of time to get ready for the draft.

Having said that, I truly hope for continuity and that Heckert & Banner can work together.

JCoz wrote:I didnt say I believed it, I was offering a possible reason that Heckert may not be retained.

I know, I was just using that as an opportunity to make a dig at a friend.

If Banner decided to get rid of ANY GM at this point of the season, he's a freakin' retard.

I've treid to dig google and others in theknow as best I could about Heckert & Banner. The results are still murkey. No one knows if there was a real falling out between these two specific men and they can't work together or if Heckert was collateral damage with Licht,which really was a political war and loser had to go.

Having said that, now is exactly the time to make the move if one is to be made. Waiting just creates another Mangina scenario. Moving now allows the scouting department to transition before the start of the college season and have the maximum amout of time to get ready for the draft.

Having said that, I truly hope for continuity and that Heckert & Banner can work together.

Regarding Holmgren, I think his whole leadership philosophy revolved around the West Coast offense. My belief is that the only reason Schurmur is coach is because he was a WCO guy.

I am not a real good football X and O guy. Most of you guys exceed my knowledge in that regard. However, shouldn't the Browns implement a Northcoast Offense? I think in NEO with our weather, don't you have to center your offense around a ground attack? Was ramming the WCO down the Brown's throat kind of a square peg into a round hole kind of a thing?

Think back to our best teams ever. All featured great running backs:

Jim BrownLeroy KellyMike PruittMack and Byner

Certainly Kosar and Sipe had solid tenures at QB, but Kosar had Mack and Byner and Sipe had Pruitt.

The current NFL is a passing league. But I think you need a great running game in NEO and particularly in our division to compete.

Hopefully Richerdson and a healthy Hardesty can establish that for us.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

What's so different about the Norris Division? That division seems to be able to put out some solid teams without superb running games. GB & Detroit have been the class of that division offensively the past two seasons, doing it mostly through the air. Even Minnesota was throwing the ball well, IIRC 2009. Hell if Cutler doesn't go down they probably throw better than they run too.

Balance is certainly important, but JUST b/c we're in a mid-west climate doesn't mean we cannot succeed through the air.

Plus don't get too caught up in our history regarding success related to running the ball (EG; Bernie days). Our running game output was actually a bit over rated back then. We were extremely well balanced, had a genius at QB & at OC, that cannot be overlooked.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

The two teams that played in last years Super Bowl, and the team many thought were going to run the table had a couple things in common. Cold weather cities and couldn't/didn't run the ball.

It's not about what "used to be" or what you;re "supposed to do," it's about what's happening - every week - in front of your eyes.

If you can run it, great. And Lord knows any offense will help this offense. But you clearly don't HAVE to run the ball to win, and it's clearly not the most efficient way to do so. In Antarctica or Hawaii.

Simple as this, Richardson turns out to be a stud, and Weeden a bumb. You lose.

OldDawg wrote:Regarding Holmgren, I think his whole leadership philosophy revolved around the West Coast offense. My belief is that the only reason Schurmur is coach is because he was a WCO guy.

I am not a real good football X and O guy. Most of you guys exceed my knowledge in that regard. However, shouldn't the Browns implement a Northcoast Offense? I think in NEO with our weather, don't you have to center your offense around a ground attack? Was ramming the WCO down the Brown's throat kind of a square peg into a round hole kind of a thing?

Think back to our best teams ever. All featured great running backs:

Jim BrownLeroy KellyMike PruittMack and Byner

Certainly Kosar and Sipe had solid tenures at QB, but Kosar had Mack and Byner and Sipe had Pruitt.

The current NFL is a passing league. But I think you need a great running game in NEO and particularly in our division to compete.

Hopefully Richerdson and a healthy Hardesty can establish that for us.

The Packers run a version of the WCO. Really hard to tell what Shurmur's O could become in Cleveland without having a QB that can make it go.

Colt was clearly not that guy. Maybe Weeden is.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

All great points, guys. I guess my reaction regarding the WCO stems from my impression of Holmgren's selection of Schurmur as HC ... in my opinion, the number one priority being his being a WCO coach as opposed to the best coach.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

OldDawg wrote:All great points, guys. I guess my reaction regarding the WCO stems from my impression of Holmgren's selection of Schurmur as HC ... in my opinion, the number one priority being his being a WCO coach as opposed to the best coach.

I'm not sure why people assume that Holmgren left some shining coach on the table in order to settle on Shurmur. He talked to Chucky, but he wasn't interested (and I wouldn't want him anyway). Cowher's not gonna coach the Browns (even if he hadn't been away from the game for way too long at this point).

Personally, I'm sick of retread coaches anyway.

PS - Please note that this is no way a statement of support for Shurmur, rather a rebuttal that they passed up an opportunity for Vince Lombardi Jr.

OldDawg wrote:All great points, guys. I guess my reaction regarding the WCO stems from my impression of Holmgren's selection of Schurmur as HC ... in my opinion, the number one priority being his being a WCO coach as opposed to the best coach.

I'm not sure why people assume that Holmgren left some shining coach on the table in order to settle on Shurmur. He talked to Chucky, but he wasn't interested (and I wouldn't want him anyway). Cowher's not gonna coach the Browns (even if he hadn't been away from the game for way too long at this point).

Personally, I'm sick of retread coaches anyway.

PS - Please note that this is no way a statement of support for Shurmur, rather a rebuttal that they passed up an opportunity for Vince Lombardi Jr.

Understood, however, there's a wide berth between Lombardi knockin' on your door and an offensive coach who's team didn't score many points.

OldDawg wrote:All great points, guys. I guess my reaction regarding the WCO stems from my impression of Holmgren's selection of Schurmur as HC ... in my opinion, the number one priority being his being a WCO coach as opposed to the best coach.

I'm not sure why people assume that Holmgren left some shining coach on the table in order to settle on Shurmur. He talked to Chucky, but he wasn't interested (and I wouldn't want him anyway). Cowher's not gonna coach the Browns (even if he hadn't been away from the game for way too long at this point).

Personally, I'm sick of retread coaches anyway.

PS - Please note that this is no way a statement of support for Shurmur, rather a rebuttal that they passed up an opportunity for Vince Lombardi Jr.

<Must read this as if Lewis Black were speaking>

"Well, we'll never know for sure, because HE NEVER FUCKING INTERVIEWED ANYONE ELSE"

(which of course, is not true, but the comedy is more impactful if it were)

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

That is a phenomenally shitty set. LIke wow, that guy should kill himself. My little bro ran away from Ethiopia and is living with me right now with a goal to end up writing comedy and I'll show him that tonight to show him what shitty is.

e0y2e3 wrote:That is a phenomenally shitty set. LIke wow, that guy should kill himself. My little bro ran away from Ethiopia and is living with me right now with a goal to end up writing comedy and I'll show him that tonight to show him what shitty is.

feh. Hard to find anything on YouTube under 2 minutes. Black is about 5 years past his sell by date, but some of his political rants are very funny.

jb wrote:I've treid to dig google and others in theknow as best I could about Heckert & Banner. The results are still murkey. No one knows if there was a real falling out between these two specific men and they can't work together or if Heckert was collateral damage with Licht,which really was a political war and loser had to go.

I am doubting that they interacted enough for either to be too invested in the other guy. Reid was always between.

If Banner and Reid were kosher at the end then no worries. If Banner and Reid were not then since Heckert is a Reid guy it's more than likely that Banner will be working off the assumption that Heckert harbors the same qualms bout Banner that Reid held.

Frankly I'm not too worried about it. If TR, Schwartz, Gordon, and Weeden just perform at the level of their respective draft positions then Heckert isn't going anywhere even if he Old School'd Banner's daughter at his re-release party. If 2 or 3 of them don't perform at that level then there's no real reason to hang onto him. His approach at FA has been entirely too conservative and his drafting past the early rounds is so-so though inarguably better than anyone we've had here in Cleveland since 99.

So it appears likely that he likely has a good relationship with Heckert.

I'd settle for "working relationship".

Who knows what these guys are thinking as it's been almost 4 years? In the end, I believe all of this will be a marriage or divorce of convenience. themain thing is they keep the systems, and I don't know why they would move away from the Iggle schemes we are built for now.

Unless Trey is BSing us, he is speaking about 2012 as a year of continuity for these guys to show the results of their work thus far. Until he proves otherwise, I will accpet that and watch.

Based on the size of the smile on Heckert's face when he met Haslem, I'd say his job is safe. My guess is Walrus is safe as well, with Banner slotting in as head of business operations/CFO. Apparently that is where his expertise lies.

bookelly wrote:Based on the size of the smile on Heckert's face when he met Haslem, I'd say his job is safe. My guess is Walrus is safe as well, with Banner slotting in as head of business operations/CFO. Apparently that is where his expertise lies.

I always smile when I meet the boss of my boss - especially if I think my current boss may not be around too much longer.

I appreciate your optimism; I really do. But I think you are underestimating the huge egos involved. Doesn't mean it will be better or worse. Just different.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

So it appears likely that he likely has a good relationship with Heckert.

I'd settle for "working relationship".

This.

Good relationship, mediocre relationship, I don't care as long as they can work together. Nothing has indicated to me that anyone left on bad terms, and obviously everyone comes from the same basic school of philosophy, so one would think there's no reason they couldn't work together regardless if they're best pals or lukewarm cordial.

motherscratcher wrote:For me a roof wouldn't have been for the 8-10 times a year that the Browns were playing. It would have been for the other 355 days a year that someone could use it for... Whatever the fuck people have conventions for.