False Prophecy Part 2 With A Jehovah’s Witness Elder

JW: Well, I did, but not really. There was never really a statement that said, “The end comes in 1975.”

KW: You didn’t find anything on your super-secret CD-Rom that I can’t have?

JW: No.

Fast forward to when I arrived home after my meeting. I exclaimed, “He lied to me!,” There are very few things for which we spank our children, but lying is one of them. After hearing my exclamation, our five year old innocently asked, “Did you pop him?” I couldn’t help but laugh. It has been a heavy morning. I needed that.

KW: Hmmm…

JW: I read it in a small article it referred back to some people who had expectations.

He then started to explain how the Watchtower Library CD-Rom has the previous year’s Watchtower magazines as well as other books and periodicals. When he read something in a recent magazine, it was from 2013 so that information was not on the CD that he has now. It will not be released until next year’s CD comes out.

KW: How far back does the CD-Rom go because if they are talking about 1975, you would need to go back farther.

JW: No, it has 1975 on it, but that isn’t what I am talking about. There was never an article that said that 1975 was going to be the end.

He was confusing me so I repeated what he just said.

KW: There was never an article that said 1975 was going to be the end.

JW: No, no. I even went back that far, but there were expectations by some.

KW: When you say expectations by “some” what do you mean by that?

JW: Maybe we can do this…

My Witness friend picked up his phone and started to search for something. Since he was sitting across the table, I couldn’t see what he was doing. I waited patiently for him to search for whatever was on his mind. As he was searching, he explained again that the article he was thinking of was from 2013.

KW: If you want to find out what someone believed prior to 1975, then you have to go back and see literature that is that old, not what people today said they believed back then.

JW: I know, but that isn’t what I looked for. I looked for an article about some people putting an emphasis on certain dates, but they were wrong. It was never official that Jehovah’s Witnesses said the end would come in 1975.

KW: Who were these people who had that thought and where did they get it?

JW: (pause) I don’t know.

KW: How far back did you go?

He never answered my question and kept searching on his phone. I finally asked;

KW: What are you searching for anyway?

JW: There was a statement from a brother in Norway who believed in the 1975 date.

KW: So he is the one who started teaching Jehovah’s Witnesses about 1975?

JW: No, he was just one of the ones who believed it.

KW: But where did he get the idea?

JW: I don’t know. It didn’t say that.

KW: That is very curious to me because you have been very clear about the idea that all Witnesses believe the same things because this faithful slave is the one who dispense the food. Basically, you don’t cook your own food. So if individuals are coming up with their own ideas, I don’t know that the Watchtower would say, “Hey, these people are coming up with their own ideas,” because they are not supposed to. You are supposed to get it from the slave, right?

JW: Yeah.

KW: So, did the slave ever say anything about 1975?

JW: No.

He kept looking at his phone and then started complaining about not being able to find what he was looking for. He looked for a long time and then broke the silence by talking about other books they have which didn’t talk about 1975 either. I asked;

KW: Again, this is very curious to me. Would you say that there were people all over the world who had this expectation? You already mentioned someone from Norway.

JW: Yes, there were pockets of people who put too much emphasis on dates.

KW: That is what I don’t understand. If the organization is a top-down organization and we have people world-wide who have a certain expectation, then there is only one source in common where they could get that information. I have a hard time believing that Jehovah’s Witnesses all around the world independently came up with 1975.

You have told me before that without the Watchtower publications, I wouldn’t believe what you believe. Reading my Bible all by itself, I would not believe what you believe. I’ve read my Bible cover to cover more than 12 times. I’ve never come up with 1975 so my question would be, how would these Witnesses world-wide come up with a date independently of each other, when the Bible doesn’t say anything about it?

JW: You would have to talk to somebody who really believed that.

He started looking at his phone again, but either his connection was too slow or his phone froze on him.

JW: Ah, this thing! Why don’t you try yours?

He motioned towards my iPad and invited me to join him in his research. I couldn’t believe he did that and quickly asked;

KW: What do I look for?

JW: Just type in 1975 and Norway.

I thought that was a rather vague search term, but I did it anyway. The results were just a bunch of random news stories. I suggested a better search term. I knew I would get better results and could not believe he was actually asking me to search for a 1975 false prophecy.

KW: What about 1975 and Jehovah’s Witnesses?

JW: Well, you can type in whatever you want, as long as 1975 is in there. Something should come up, but I’m telling you right now, this library only goes back 10 years.

KW: Library?

JW: The online Library on the JW.org web site.

KW: Oh, I’m on Google.

JW: Oh, no… Look under, uh…

It hit me like a ton of bricks. He was on the other side of the table using his little phone to search the JW.org web site, but because I couldn’t see what he was doing, I thought he was looking up things on Google. When he invited me to join in his search, I naturally thought he was talking about doing Google searches. I was all too happy to help.

Now that I realized that he was talking about the JW.org web site, I knew I had little opportunity to read something damaging. He started to tell me to navigate to the JW.org site. I had to act fast because I knew he was not going to want to read anything on “apostate sites.”

KW: Here’s one. “Watchtower quotes to show what really was predicted.” JWfacts.com.

JW: I’m not going to go to web pages that may be published by apostates. I’m not going to go there. But you can go to the online library. That is what I meant for you to do.

KW: Why wouldn’t you look at this?

JW: No. I’m not going to look at that.

KW: It says it is quotes to show what really was predicted.

JW: No, no. I’m not going to go there.

I wouldn’t have been surprised if he immediately jumped up from the table, set his own hair on fire and screamed as he crashed through the door. I have never seen my friend so tense and so obstinate. I knew this was the best opportunity I had to actually look at false prophecies with him. I decided to push.

KW: Do you mind if I go there?

JW: You can go there, but… uh, but why not go to the source itself?

Too late. I don’t think my 4G connection has ever worked faster. As soon as he said “go there,” I touched the link on my iPad and was whisked away into the world of apostate cyber prophecies.

KW: That is why references are so important to me.

JW: How do you know those are true references?

KW: I’ll give you the reference and you can look it up.

JW: No.

I ignored his decline and started reading this page. I scanned quickly for a good pre-1975 quote. He looked at his phone again and started trying to get on the JW.org site. It was still having trouble loading.

JW: It isn’t coming up.

KW: Here is a Watchtower from 1980… I’ll tell you what, let’s do this. I’ll skim through this really quick, I’ll read this later, but I’ll skim through it and give you the references that I see. You can look them up when you get home.

Silence.

KW: Does that sound like a good deal?

JW: No.

KW: What do you mean, “No?”

He was angry.

JW: The fact is, the Bible says no one knows the date. That’s it. The article I was looking for said that the brothers who believed in 1975 corrected their view. It was wrong to concentrate on a certain date.

KW: They would have to. It is 2013.

JW: They corrected their view. Most of the brothers never believed in it anyway.

KW: I don’t understand this. We are both curious about 1975, I want to give you some references to look up and you don’t want to look them up.

JW: No. I don’t know that source. There are a lot of apostates out there publishing their opinion and trying to pick on us. I’m not going to look at that.

KW: I’m not asking you to. I am asking you to look at something I can’t. I’m asking you to look at your CD-Rom.

JW: You can look at whatever you want to.

KW: But you have a CD-Rom that I am not supposed to have.

JW: Yeah.

KW: So, if I give you the references to look at your CD, if these guys are saying things that are wrong, then what you find on your own CD will prove them incorrect, right? I’m trusting you to do this homework.

JW: Why are you so interested in this?

KW: I’m really interested now because all of a sudden, you’re not. Last week both of us were curious about 1975.

JW: I said there was a tendency by some brothers, but the Watchtower never printed anything about it.

KW: We haven’t looked at it.

JW: If they didn’t it would come up on the Watchtower online library or the CD.

KW: You said the online library only goes back 10 years.

JW: No, the CD goes back further.

KW: That is what I want you to do. Look at the CD. If they said it, I want to know about it.

He looked back down at his phone.

JW: This is frozen. If it is in there, I’ll find it, but I will not go to any…

KW: I’m not asking you to. I just want to give you a reference to look up… for me because I can’t look at your CD-Rom.

There was a LONG pause and he had a blank stare on his face as he glared a hole into his phone.

KW: Okay? (Laughing) It is something you want to look up anyway.

JW: No. Well, yes. I’ll look it up and find it.

KW: Wouldn’t it make it a lot easier if you had a reference?

JW: I’m not going to look anything that I know is not there anyways. The Bible says we are not to look at dates so it is a mystery to me as to why there was a focus on dates anyway.

KW: It wouldn’t be a mystery if you looked up the reference. I want to know this. Let me give you a reference, come on. Write it down. Here is one from 1980…

My stubborn Witness friend had this wet cat look on his face and frowned at me.

KW: You’re not going to look this up?

JW: No.

I couldn’t help but laugh. I wanted to set things at ease, but he wasn’t having any of it.

KW: You won’t even write down a reference?

JW: No.

KW: I don’t understand why you will not even look at your own CD-Rom.

Another LONG pause. I decided to push harder.

KW: Do you know what this looks like from my perspective?

JW: What?

KW: You are afraid to find out what you think might be there.

I knew that was a risky thing to say, but I thought it was natural in light of how he was acting. It is an amazing thing to witness, a Jehovah’s Witness so scared to death that he will not even look at his own religious material because he fears what he will find. Imagine Dorothy discovering the man behind the curtain and then refusing to investigate further. It takes a feisty little dog to pull back the curtain or Dorothy would be stuck in the Land of Oz forever.

This is about the halfway point of this report. I will end it here and post the rest of our conversation tomorrow. As you will find out in tomorrow’s blog post, he is at a critical point.

6 Thoughts on “False Prophecy Part 2 With A Jehovah’s Witness Elder”

Being a JW for over 50 yrs I am not surprised at all at the reactions of the Elder .
You saw first hand cult mind control and delusion . You’ve found the surefire way to
debunk the Watchtower followers . Easy research into their sordid history of false prophecy .

You may have figured out that this elder is very close to coming up with a reason to
stop talking to you and label you a goat and not “teachable” or poisoned by apostate
reasoning .

Their idol the “organization” cannot stand up to scrutiny .

JWfacts.com is a awesome resource . No JW has ever been able to find anything false
on it .

The JWs Watchtower president himself (Fred Franz) gave a speech where he said 1975 was the end.
Just search “jehovah’s witnesses 1975” on Youtube for the audio . This will come uphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaXbBVVoeEQ

Yep you hit the nail on the head, BINGO! BTW dont be surprised if some of this is missing from his cd rom. They were doctored years ago when i was first exiting and im sure they are doctored even more now. There have been several recalls for old literature from the congregations which means they are trying very hard to erase the paper trail of the past that haunts them.

I have a copy of the 2003 CD ROM. If you search for certain things, they won’t come up. But if you know what article you’re looking for, they’re on there. I’m glad I’ve held on to it, if they are doctoring newer editions. Crazy.

*** w66 10/15 p. 631 Rejoicing over “God’s Sons of Liberty” Spiritual Feast ***
THE YEAR 1975
At the Baltimore assembly Brother Franz in his closing remarks made some interesting comments regarding the year 1975. He began casually by saying, “Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean? Does it mean this, that or any other thing?’” In part, Brother Franz went on to say: ‘You have noticed the chart [on pages 31-35 in the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God]. It shows that 6,000 years of human experience will end in 1975, about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that God’s rest day began 4026 B.C.E.? It could have. The Life Everlasting book does not say it did not. The book merely presents the chronology. You can accept it or reject it. If that is the case, what does that mean to us? [He went into some length showing the feasibility of the 4026 B.C.E. date as being the beginning of God’s rest day.]
‘What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?’ asked Brother Franz. ‘Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah’s witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that

“Did you pop him?” That is a classic, kids are awesome! Any JW that says the WBTS did not say anything about 1975 was either not a JW at the time or if they were, they are flat out lying. I was five years old in 1975 and I remember all the excitement. My parents did not send me to kindergarten because Armageddon was coming. My mom has told that story many times. She said at that time she was so grateful she was not going to have to send me to school because this wicked system would be gone.

I also remember all the people who stopped coming to the kingdom hall. When I asked why i was told they were serving dates not Jehovah.

As for him lying, that is par for the course. He IS AFRAID of what he may find. I was witnessing to a JW for two years and i can’t count how many times he lied to me about supposedly looking things up. I already had and knew they were there, that is why I told him to look for himself, but of course he said he did not find what I said was there. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.