CCS football playoffs: Private vs. public debate rages on

Reading the comments here this weekend tells me the landscape has not changed since my first stint covering high schools for the Mercury News in the 1990s.

Private schools dominate; public schools cite the unlevel playing field.

My initial thought: Hopefully this year is an aberration because the competitive balance in football on the opening weekend of the Central Coast Section playoffs was not what anyone without a rooting interest wanted to see.

Of the 20 first-round games in the five divisions, only two – yes, two — were decided by a touchdown or less. The average margin of victory: Four touchdowns.

There were seven games between private schools and public schools. Private schools won six of them by an average score of 42.5-13.0. The area’s top two public schools this season — Oak Grove and Palo Alto — lost to their private-school opponents by 24 and 17 points, respectively. The one private school that lost to a public school — Riordan — needed to win a coin flip just to get into the playoffs.

Maybe this was an unusually one-sided year.

As recently as 2007, public schools went 3-0 against private schools in the first round of the Open Division playoffs and in 2010 Palo Alto won the Open Division on its way to a state championship.

But the outcry on the blog this weekend had me digging into the archives to reread an extensive report my former colleague Dave Reddy and I did on the subject years ago.

Clearly, the issues back then are the same issues that were debated this weekend. Here are some excerpts from the story titled “Playing Fair” that ran in the Mercury News on Dec. 26, 1996:

Private schools making a surge in titles since 1986

Private schools, which make up 36 percent of the 111 schools in the section, have made a dramatic surge in the past 10-plus years, winning 233 of the 501 CCS team titles (46.5 percent) contested. That is a 25.7 percent improvement from the previous 10 years, when private schools won 49 of the 235 titles contested.

True, public schools are winning 53.5 percent of the titles. But it is clear that dynasties such as St. Francis’ football team, which has won seven CCS titles in the past eight seasons, and Mitty’s girls basketball team, which has won nine section titles in the past 10 seasons, create a perception that private schools win more often.

“My girls team can compete a little bit, ” said Ernie Dossa, girls basketball coach at public Homestead. “Us against St. Francis is even. But we can’t compete with Mitty.”

Four schools – Bellarmine, St. Francis, Mitty and Sacred Heart Prep – have won 60 percent of the private school titles since the 1976-’77 school year and 23 percent of the titles overall. In leagues where public schools compete against private schools, private schools dominate. Palma, a boys private school in Salinas, has won the Mission Trail Athletic League football title 12 consecutive seasons.

Private school coaches and athletic directors contend this success comes from legally attracting athletes and providing them with state-of-the-art facilities and established programs – in addition to a college preparatory education. Most private schools aren’t dominant on the field, they add, and sometimes public schools are.

Here is another excerpt from our ’96 story:

Financial aid: Athletes receive no special treatment

It isn’t only the recruiting issue that has public school proponents upset. Local private schools, whose tuitions reach as high as $11,000 per year but average roughly $6,000, are often accused of offering athletic scholarships.

Not so, private school coaches and administrators say. Athletic scholarships are illegal. Schools can offer need-based financial aid, but all students are eligible to apply for the assistance.

Athletes receive no special treatment, said Pam Quinn, an administrative assistant in the Bellarmine business office.

“There’s no indication on the application that the students are or are not athletes, ” Quinn said.

At Bellarmine, financial aid applications are sent to Private Schools Aid Service, a company based in Lakewood, Ohio, that analyzes applications nationwide. But the Bellarmine business office makes the final determination for its students.

Bellarmine coaches and administrators aren’t involved in the process. The same holds true at other private schools.

Sixteen years later, the debate has not subsided and probably won’t anytime soon.

As for this weekend’s football games, here is the breakdown of the results:

A larger portion of the population in the Bay Area can afford to send their kids to private schools…… In Sacramento, Fresno, Bakersfield …….. a larger portion cannot ……. so athletes stay with their home schools.

It is economics.

FootballFriday

CCM,

where were you when the OPEN was ALL PUBLIC schools two years in a row. In 2006 and 2007 it was an all public school final.

Seems to me that WCAL teams should figure out how to beat the BELLS rather than claim dominance of a league.

Just a Fan

Football Friday, The WCAL really doesn’t dominate. Since ’86 if Leland, Los Gatos, Milpitas, Oak Grove, and Palo Alto together in one league you would have as many championships as the WCAL has in the same time span – 26. A more accurate statement is quality consistent programs dominate. There is definitely an advantage with open boarders but the real differentiator is strong consistent programs.

Some Guy

@likeitis, kudos to your son, that certainly is another reason some kids don’t end up at private schools.

C’mon FootballFriday, I agree with much of what you wrote, but don’t act so high and mighty claiming that this argument is always brought on by WCAL chest thumping. I just went back and this time, likeitis brought up no boundaries and recruiting after I simply said that (SF) was among the best teams in CCS and he shouldn’t be surprised when they pull off an upset (over Serra). You call that “bragging”?

I agree with you that this thing drags on when people talk in generalizations: All/No private schools (have ever) recruit(ed), All/No public schools work as hard as All/the best WCAL schools. Speaking of…

@CCM, too many generalizations in there. I disagree with your post as well.

Some Guy

@likeitis, if nothing else, congrats to you for bringing this blog back from the dead. Hopefully, we can move the discussion to something less juvenile, like highschool football!

Hatch

“The bee will go to the brightest flower” and for the students attending privates, the private was the brighter flower to the local public alternative. If you were a parent and you child was accepted into a private school, you would sit down and weigh the pros/cons of attending the private vs the local public. The pros/cons will be what does the private offer in terms of academics/athletics/high school culture vs the burden of finances and travel logistics that will be required.

There are a small handful of public schools that offer a combination of academic/athletic excellence that rival that of privates. Palo Alto, Leland, Los Gatos come to mind. They always have, and always will, retain a large number or students within their boundaries to be near the top among public schools in both academics and athletics.

You also need to consider the pride and support of the local community for their local public high school. How many students are trying out for the team? How many parents are going to the games? Go to a football game in the SJS for one of the successful programs like Folsom, Del Oro, or Grant and the local support and turnout for their games are HUGE.

Private schools provide students with an opportunity that may otherwise not be available locally, and you can’t knock on the students for choosing that route, or the school itself for providing that opportunity.

@woj “He who is humble is confident and wise. He who brags is insecure and lacking.”

FootballFriday

I am not being high and mighty….just an opinion on a blog. We can reorder to have the public school point of view start the argument. Ends up in the same cycle. BUT, the SJM article is entitled WCAL dominates the evening. That is the start.

likeitis

Hey Some Guy – Yes I brought up the weird SF-Serra score but you need to go a little further back on the boundary issue – as much as its always an interesting debate, where some from each side are IMO inappropriate, I can not take credit for bringing it back up.

But thanks….. or no thanks? lol

@Hatch – good post. I’d like to add to your point regarding public schools with a “combination of academic/athletic excellence” Demographics also play apart in this. The school district I went to has flipped from 95% white anglo-sax to 70% Asian Americans. They are fantastic students and rank in the 99 percentile. Which is great for academics. However I went to our homecoming and we were small. Only one player over 200. Average size was about 170. Little guys, My hat is off to them but lets face it these schools can’t compete with say a Bellarmine that was considered small last year – well they were huge compared to the district I am talking about.

I hope this didn’t come off as racist cuz that’s not the point. The point was you can have a very good public school academic wise but not athletic wise. In fb they give it their all but are just too small to compete with WCAL or some of the A schools (sometimes both in physical size and enrollment)

likeitis

BTW some guy – When FootballFriday said private supporters bragging I didn’t think it was addressed to you more to woj and some of the others

Hatch

@likeitis Demographics are definitely a factor(did you go to Leland lol). There are some public high schools that have great academics (Gunn, Monta Vista) but not so great athletic teams, and vice versa. The privates are for the most part able to provide both because of the resources available to them, and the vast majority of public schools will have a hard time competing with that. That’s just the reality of the situation.

South Bay Guy

85% of the kids attending private high schools come from the private K-8s not the publics. Parents are choosing to put these kids into the private system early.

Improve the publics and the situation will get better. The good privates will always have some advantages but those won’t be as great as they currently are.

Semi-Pro

LOL at people calling Financial Aid for ridiculously expensive private schools a “recruiting advantage”. Last I checked, public schools were FREE.

WCAL75

Meanwhile back on the football field…..These are my picks for this week:

Open: Serra over the Bells and Mitty over SI. I feel that Serra looked good in the second half of the Paly game and seems to have the momentum, while the Bells performance fell off a bit in the Terra Nova game. However either team could win this game. In the Mitty SI game, I feel it will be hard to beat Mitty twice in a row and I liked the defensive performance of Mitty over Oak Grove. But like the Bells/Serra game, you can flip a coin as both teams could win this game.

They should go 2 more weeks and have the winners of the divisions battle it out drop D-4 if you want a true champion.

Imustsay

It’s not gonna be a cake walk for LG to defeat Wilcox . The team that makes the least mistake will win…..Im jusy saying

FootballFriday

LGF…open division is a true champion.

Football Expert

Long time no see guys, its been a year since I posted. Wow, where do I begin in this discussion. Here’s my opinion from many years of experience and being involved in football all over the state…

The reason we have this current private school domination of football and all sports in general is because this area and section(CCS) is very unique and unlike any other area or section in the state. The rise of Silicon Valley has created an area where their is more private school opportunities than usual and more people who can afford them, therefore the privates attract alot of people who go their beause they see it as offering more, this includes athletes. This has made the CCS, which is not a large or talent-rich section(compared to SJS, NCS or SS) to begin with, very private school strong and public school weak. In those sections the private schools don’t always dominate, its either even or the public schools are deeper and stronger, such as in the SJS which has many strong public schools who would dominate CCS public schools and could compete with our WCAL schools. In the NCS its DLS who dominates, but after that there is a bunch of very strong public schools. And is the SS which is a huuuge section, they have many strong public and private schools that could all beat eachother in any given year.

The CCS is just a unique section and I don’t see it changing unless somehow the publics make some type of strong effort to majorly improve their athletics. But with the limited depth of talent in this area I do realize that that is easier said than done.

Oh and about the recruiting. I don’t think so much that its a direct recruiting by the WCAL schools or coaches, but I do think that many inside or outside people involved with these schools (ie: parents, friends, associates) do try to sway top athetes over to the privates.
For example. I’ve coached pop warner in this area for a few years now with a pretty succesful organization and I’ve seen many instances when a standout player is told by his very own pop warner coaches(many whom don’t even have ANY connection to a WCAL school) that he has special talents and should consider going to one of the WCAL schools to get “exposure” because the publics around here are not very good(that’s where the problem lies) and he won’t “get noticed” at one of them.

Like I said, we need the publics to rise again

Brad

I realize that the private schools vs public schools is the way it is! But, since private schools have different rules (like attendance boundaries), financial aid ( otherwise known as a scholarship), and come across as arrogant toads they should just play with themselves.

calidad

As a parent of children who have attended both publics and privates, my observation is that the level of disipline at the private level is much greater than in the public schools. It is my personal expericence, this is true across the board – from academics to athletics to the way that students treat not only peers but also adults. The public school system is in need of a major overhaul and until that happens, the private schools will continue to dominate both the field and the classroom. Sadly, political correctness has trumped common sense in the State of California. Comment @ Brad – if the CCS wants to force the WCAL into their own playoff, I’m good with that. Lastly, you are SO right – it is what it is!

3 and Out

Again. Give the kids vouchers and let the parents decide where to send their kids. Problem solved.

likeitis

calidad – having taught in the public system there is one major difference you maybe over looking – the percentage of students that really don’t want to be in HS is much higher in the publics than in the privates.

The public schools are free but they also have to deal with attendance laws more than the privates. Privates can just drop a student. Parents don’t like paying for an education if the student isn’t putting the effort in.

Bottom line IMO when students want to be part of something it makes administrating a “greater level of discipline” not as difficult. Hats off to the privates for it

South Bay Guy

@3 and Out, who pays for the vouchers? Are you suggesting pulling education funds out of Sacramento and into the hands of parents? If you did that the situation with the publics/privates would get far worse.

CA needs an overhall of their educational K-12 system. It’s been reported that 50% of the High School kids in SF are not on course to graduate for the 2014 class and D is a passing grade. If true that’s absolutely dismal.

WCAL75

@South Bay Guy, Did you mean San Francisco?

Old School

Football Expert,

Your comments on recruiting v. “exposure” are right on the money. I have witnessed it many times – good 7th & 8th grade athletes approached by “parents, friends and associates” as you describe (not coaches or ADs), and told they would fit in great at Bell, VC, Mitty and SF and should visit the school and shadow. Is that “undue influence” under the CCS rule – I don’t think so. Is it taking advantage of open boundaries – absolutely. Would publics do the same if they could – absolutely.

Here is the bottom line:
-CCS Privates have a huge athletic advantage with open boundaries.
-CCS Publics need to get their act together and get more competitive.

Good luck to all on Friday night. I’ll be rooting for the underdogs…..

South Bay Guy

@WCAL75, yes San Francisco. Don’t know how true it is but I heard it this morning on the radio.

My Two Cents

Couple of points:

1. I find it funny that as all the “adults” are arguing about Private -vs- Public…the players who end winning the championships for each of the 5 divisions could probably care less about this topic!

2.Most varsity team players are usually Seniors and correct me if I am wrong but it is a bit too for the “I wish my kid was in a private” conversation?

3. Being champion of the Open Division does not give players some type of magical gold card for life. Whether a player is a champion in Division 4 or champion in the Open Division they are champions and we should compliment that acheivement! How many Division 4 Championship Dads told their son..”Nice job son…too bad its not an Open Division Championship!”? Trust me when that game clock hits zero…NO ONE cares what is happening in the other divisions.

Just My Two Cents!

likeitis

Just My Two Cents – you’re correct that it is about the players. However if you think they don’t know about the difference between their schools you are very wrong – They know about it well before they are seniors, they know about it as freshmen when that decision was made for most of them.

FYI – The best varsity players played as juniors. many as sophomores – most varsity teams are less than 50% seniors (at least in football)

I don’t think these discussion are about “I wish my kid was in a private” They are about the differences.

As for the titles – yes a championship is a championship but the Open gets you to the next possibility (a State title). If you think the Bellarmine and Palo Alto players don’t know the difference you’re a little naive

And you are even a little more naive if you believe the other D3 teams aren’t looking at the advantage VC has over them and what the heck are they doing in the same division – but it is what it is

I do believe you are correct about once teams are seeded into a division and the play-offs start the others don’t matter

Happy Thanksgiving

likeitis

Just My Two Cents – Talked with my son – they know the difference but once on the field it doesn’t matter

FootballFriday

As if we need to re-ignite this debate…just read an article where PAL discussed not participating in the CCS playoffs. Here is the excerpt The Daily Journal:

{And now for the juicy portion of the meeting. Sell [Aragon] said the rumblings and grumblings about CCS may lead the PAL to look at alternatives to the CCS playoffs. The way CCS is currently set up, it’s an exception, rather than rule, that a PAL team wins a CCS championship.
“I think there is a growing sense of frustration,” Sell said. “Unless you’re a really small school, like Menlo or Sacred Heart Prep in Division IV … the chances of winning a section title are slim and none.”
It’s to the point that Sell and others are contemplating declining bids to CCS and just having their season finish with their rivalry games.
It’s not unprecedented. Currently, Lincoln-San Jose and San Jose Academy bypass CCS and instead face each other every Thanksgiving Day in the annual Big Bone Game. The San Francisco public schools are its own section and thus hold a league playoff to determine its “section” champion.
“If 7-3 doesn’t get into the playoffs and we finish with a win over Hillsdale (it’s OK),” Sell said. “Playing for a CCS title is becoming a holy grail.”
There is an even more extreme plan Sell said the PAL may begin looking into. Instead of playing in CCS, there would be a PAL playoff, with the championship game scheduled for Thanksgiving Day.
Again, there is precedent. For many years, the Little Big Game was played on Thanksgiving, well before the advent of CCS. When CCS became incorporated, the Mid-Peninsula League, among others, did not participate in the CCS playoffs. It wasn’t until 1978 that all the leagues that encompass CCS participated in the playoffs. From 1982 to 1992, the PAL played in what was called the CCS North, which was essentially a PAL tournament. There is now talk about going back to that type of system.
“It was a county football tournament (back them). Those games were exciting. It was a big community event,” Sell said. “Last week, we went down San Jose (to play Leland) and no one was there.”}

COMMENT:

PAL waving the white flag! Embarrassing. It’s really close to being the RIGHT system…couple of simple fixes would level the CCS playoffs.

If PAL would properly designate their leagues, the Bay champ would not be in the OPEN. Bay and Ocean are B leagues, and Lake is a C. That combined with the only allowing teams with .500 record or better into the playoffs would solve many problems.

likeitis

FootballFriday – I don’t believe PAL can designate their leagues – its designated by another CCS formula.

FootballFriday

fix that

south bay baller

Go eat some turkey guys and give it a rest for today! Happy thanksgiving to all public’s and privates! lol!

common sense

publicschoolrepp your name says it all, so stop complaining. Not all life is fair but somehow all these complainers want to make it fair in high school athletics. Whatever happened to its not if you win or lose its how you play the game.?

likeitis

@common sense – There are “complainers” and there are some public supporters that get a little tired of some of the arrogant private supporters who think they don’t have any advantages while rubbing the WCAL dominance in. You are correct life is not fair. And some get doors opened for them. Personally I don’t blame private student/athletes for taking the opportunities they get at a private school. I do take issue with parents/supports that act above the public’s without regard to their advantages. Whatever happened to being humble?

Some Guy

Publicschoolrepp = Woj. The truth is for every uninformed classless private school fan, there is one just as bad from the public side. Speaking of arrogant/ignorant fans, my guess is Sacboy shows up this week to tell us how the CCS public schools are a joke and the WCAL team that reps the CCS in NorCal will “get smoked by the 10x more talented SJS public schools.”

Congrats to all the teams still standing. You have earned and deserve your spot in the finals. Nobody can take that accomplishment away from you!

likeitis

@Some Guy – Totally agree

Beentheredonethat

Everyone that has posted on this subject has seen ‘Hoosiers’. If Hickory were Bellarmine or Mitty then essentially you have no movie. It’s the local kid and team from the small town playing the powerhouse. Nobody backs Goliath. Everyone wants David to win. I love the little league world series because it brings a local community together. Think Petaluma this year. And while I’m on the subject call me when the coach of all the multiple swimming championships at Bellarmine wins with the talent at his own kids local school.

BCP86

Beentheredonethat,
Coach Rogers at Bellarmine has sons that went to Bellarmine so asking him to win at his local kids school is pointless. He was however very successful at Monta Vista in the 70s before arriving at Bellarmine. As for swimming Championships, yes, Bellarmine has won them all since 1985. But you may find it interesting that the2008 (maybe it was 2009) Saratoga High team won the Mythical National Championship for swimming. And to my knowledge, PALY is still the only CCS state champ in football. GO BELLS!!!

likeitis

Beentheredonethat – Coach Rogers has a program similar to the one George Haines had in the 60s and 70s, which produced dozens of Olympians – A HS program that swimmers from around the country are attracted to. Its good for their sport, our section and our country. They aren’t as dominant nationally as SC was but definitely competitive.

If the program at Bellarmine wasn’t there another one somewhere else would exist. Its a model US swimming has had for over 50 years. Look how successful the US swim teams are. So hats off to the Bells for being the home of such a very good program and being part of one of our country’s strongest sports.

1oldBulldog

@BCP86 The year you won CCS 100 Free in 45.22 for the Bells, did you train in the Bell bulkhead pool during the season, or with your club team???

1oldBulldog

@likeitis
Not quite, as George trained all his high school swimmers himself. Spitz, Job, Jamison, Ivey, Joe & Mike Bottom, Roy, etc all trained with him. He was the HS and Club coach. Today, “most” of the top swimmers train at their clubs during the high school season, and see the high school coach the day of meets.

BCP86

Bulldog…club team.
GO BELLS!!!

likeitis

1oldBulldog – point was they all ended up going to SC HS somehow. Please don’t tell me they all really lived there as I know where some of them really lived – which was not inside the SC boundary.

So there is no such thing as swim practice at Bellarmine or their top swimmers are excused from it?

likeitis

but I see your point about club and HS

likeitis

and i did say similar not exact

BCP86

Likeitis…George Haines was a teacher and coach at SCHS and he started the Santa Clara Swim Club in 1951. Even in those days the elite swimmers swam for their club in practice and represented their HS during swim season. Larry Rogers coaches the HS team and most of the best Bell swimmers swim for John Bitter at SCSC. There are a few point scorers from other local programs as well. And every year, Larry develops a few of the polo players that practice at BCP. There’s the scoop…GO BELLS!!!

likeitis

BCP86 – Bellarmine is a just a skip from SC HS. The elite swimmers are going to Bellarmine instead of SC. Good move on their part. Its still the elite being attracted to one place. The difference is two different coaches for club and HS.

One would hope they practice with the HS during their season – not sure what the CIF/CCS rules are on practice.

joeb

likeitis,
I have a different perspective on your comment. The parents who have been taking their kids for years to the best club program at SC are generally well off – which is why they can afford the swim program. These parents of means, will be picking a private school not for their swim program but for their academic programs and the ability to get their kids into a good universities. It just happens that Bell is the nearest and arguably the the best high school for academics/college plus it is convenient because their kids are swimming in the morning close by.

Some Guy

@Joeb, that’s how I see it as well. Also interesting, many top soccer players are choosing to play for their clubs, and not even participating in CIF competition.

These kids who are also at WCAL schools obviously didn’t choose their school for the athletics. Proof that some great athletes end up at private schools for other reasons than the sports programs…