2009.07.16 - Workshop 22

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The following is the transcript of the workshop meeting of July 16th 2009.

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!Stim Morane: Scathach, Hi!Stim Morane: And Pila!Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach and StimScathach Rhiadra: Hello PilaEliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Scath, Pila :))Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and all :)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello ElizaEliza Madrigal: And Gaya once again... that was fast. hahGaya Ethaniel: ^.-Scathach Rhiadra: Gaya:)Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Eliza, MickGaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)Eliza Madrigal: Hi MickScathach Rhiadra: Hello MickPila Mulligan: hi Gaya, Eliza and MickMickorod Renard: Hiya Stim Gaya Scath ElizaMickorod Renard: Hi PilaGaya Ethaniel: Feels like ages since last workshop somehow :)Mickorod Renard: Hi FefGaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)Eliza Madrigal: Hi FefPila Mulligan: hi FefonzStim Morane: Hi FefonzScathach Rhiadra: even longer to the next one!Fefonz Quan: hey all! :)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello FefonzGaya Ethaniel nods. True ...Mickorod Renard: isnt pila going to fill in betweenPila Mulligan: :)Stim Morane: Gaya, have you been heavily involved in lots of projects or activities since last week?Mickorod Renard: ;)Gaya Ethaniel: No a lot happened 'internally' I think.Stim Morane: I seeGaya Ethaniel: Yes we have Pila :)Stim Morane: OK, good.Gaya Ethaniel: :)Stim Morane: Gaya submitted a "report" following up on our last meeting. Has everyone read it?Mickorod Renard: sorry i havntStim Morane: (Sorry, I'm jumping right in today, just to save time.)Mickorod Renard: have u a link at all ps?Stim Morane: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/3Reports/Gaya_Ethaniel/Report_21Mickorod Renard: taEliza Madrigal: yes, have read both reportsShyama Sheryffe: hiPila Mulligan: hi ShyamaEliza Madrigal: Hi Shy :)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello shyamaStim Morane: hi shyamaGaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)Stim Morane: we're looking at a brief report by Gaya:Stim Morane: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/3Reports/Gaya_Ethaniel/Report_21Mickorod Renard: Hi ShyMickorod Renard: nice reportGayaGaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)Fefonz Quan: yes, dramatic dream!Mickorod Renard: I hope to be more active now that School is finnished for summerPila Mulligan: "I see how 'I go' with fear"Stim Morane: Yes, thanks Gaya!Mickorod Renard: forgive me for being a lil distracted recentlyGaya Ethaniel: Sorry I couldn't make last week informal meeting. We meet again however can this Sunday I hope :)Gaya Ethaniel: whoever*Stim Morane: The funeral of the self is a classic image.Gaya Ethaniel: Is it? heh :)Stim Morane: So Gaya, do you have any further comments regarding acceptance?Pila Mulligan: think Ebenezer Scrooge, Gaya :)Gaya Ethaniel: Well how I go usually seem to involve ideas about myself regarding fear. As in, "should enjoy challenges" "I don't like being such a whimp etc." But I seem to turn away almost automatically out of 'habit'.Mickorod Renard: if i may,,is the aceptance we are discussing only relevent to dreams,,or life in general?Stim Morane: Mick, I guess it's pretty broadMickorod Renard: tyStim Morane: Certainly not just regarding dreamsGaya Ethaniel: I can see now that I turn away, I just try to face it again. That's the best I can do for now.Gaya Ethaniel: ahhh Scrooge :)Stim Morane: Yes, Gaya ... just seeing more of what tends to happen is fine for now.Stim Morane: This is tricky because what we usually call "seeing what happens" actually involves a lot of interpretationGaya Ethaniel: Mick, I talked about the dream at a PaB session and I came to see the relevance to the workshop in regards to 'going' afterwards when I read the log again later.Gaya Ethaniel: ok Stim :)Stim Morane: brbMickorod Renard: I have observed that a large part of my change in life has been due to being more acceptingMickorod Renard: ok thanks StimFefonz Quan nods to Mick, mine tooStim Morane: sorry, backStim Morane: Yes, Mick. The issue of acceptance applies to much of what you were describing to us a few weeks ago too.Stim Morane: Acceptance and "seeing" are inseparableGaya Ethaniel: To be honest, I don't know how it works re: fear in my mind. I'm just happy to see that how the whole process starts.Stim Morane: Yes, this is a big topic in its own right.Stim Morane: Anyway, you're working on an important issue and I look forward to hearing more about how it's going over time.Gaya Ethaniel: ok will do :)Stim Morane: Pila also wrote a report for us. It's at:Stim Morane: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/3Reports/Pila_Mulligan/Workshop_21Fefonz Quan: interesting report Pila.Eliza Madrigal nods... veryStim Morane: YesGaya Ethaniel nods :)Pila Mulligan: thnaksStim Morane: There's quite a lot in your report, Pila. I suggest we step through it slowly.Fefonz Quan: Iliked the breathing part, though i find it works both waysStim Morane: But first, did you want to add any further perspectives to what you wrote?Pila Mulligan: oh yesPila Mulligan: my mind never really frees meStim Morane: :)Pila Mulligan: There is the idea of interconnected awareness, and to me emptiness describes a perception that is uplifting of awareness, with ethics being the art of sensitivity to the uplifting of interconnected awareness. We may reach the emptiness perception by some form of practice, then the experience of the perception can serve as an ethical guide. Yet humans seem to ordinarily have a spontaneous reverence for natural beauty, and that reverence relates to the same idea of ethics. So we can approach the uplifting experience and the related idea of ethics from various angles.Pila Mulligan: [finis]Stim Morane: GreatStim Morane: I mentioned that we could spend part of our session today on how codependent arising relates to your practice-related experience and also to Fefonz's interests.Mickorod Renard: phew,,heavy stuff PilaStim Morane: Pila, shall we start with points drawn from your report?Pila Mulligan: yesPila Mulligan: I will need to let you start StimStim Morane: I appreciated that you put the "Confucius" quote in the context of actually being part of a story by Chuang-tzu.Stim Morane: Chuang-tzu was a rascal and loved to make stories with famous characters in themStim Morane: The view you mention wouldn't actually have made much sense to Confucius, I think, but it works fine as a story in CHuang-tzuPila Mulligan: :)Gaya Ethaniel: ahhh Jang-ja :)Stim Morane: So just to make a quick point regarding that ...Pila Mulligan: I also understand Chang Tze to feel there are too many valid possible varieties of personal experience for one to prescribe some of them and proscribe the others as descriptions of reality.Stim Morane: He was doing some innovative, boundary-crossing things, unusual for his time perhaps.Pila Mulligan: maybe akin to Nagarjuna?Stim Morane: He was a student of logic and the limitations of language and categories of ordinary thoughtStim Morane: Yes, perhaps he was somewhat like NagarjunaStim Morane: His primary interest was in spoofing the idea that our knowledge really covers very much of the range of realityStim Morane: He loved to turn our ordinary views upsidedownStim Morane: And along the way, he was illustrating some classic Taoist ideas.Stim Morane: One of them relates to your first sentence regarding " how perception proceeds to emptiness (from the senses through the mind to primal spirit.) "Stim Morane: This refers to the Daoist idea of "return", return to Tao.Stim Morane: I take it that you have been working on various practices that implement this return, is that right?Pila Mulligan: yes, I hope so, it seems soStim Morane: :)Stim Morane: GoodStim Morane: In true chuang-tzu spirit, we shouldn't be too certain!Pila Mulligan: reminds me of that nice part of Corinthians, 'whe I was a child ..'Gaya Ethaniel: Tao means path?Stim Morane: Tao literally means path or road or Way ... Or even "say"Gaya Ethaniel: ah okStim Morane: But here it refers to reality, the overarching reality that is everywhere present but usually not appreciated or followed very well by pesky human beingsStim Morane: Hence the need for "return"Stim Morane: Anyway, the weird codependent arising point we've been discussing in this forum would critique this "return" notion and its destination, "Tao"Pila Mulligan: how so stim?Stim Morane: This doesn't mean I am taking the side of codependent arising over that of Daoism, but just to illustrate the point behind Nagarjuna's teaching ...Pila Mulligan: ahStim Morane: The 2nd version of codependent arising would say something like this:Pila Mulligan: reificationStim Morane: sort of, yesStim Morane: The "primal spirit" is codependent with other features of what is immediately present in your view at that moment and doesn't have any reality apart from that.Stim Morane: This would be Nagarjuna's teachingStim Morane: I'm claiming that both his point and that of traditional practitioners following Taoism are valid and importantFefonz Quan: (un-atman?)Stim Morane: yes, fefonzStim Morane: Something like thatPila Mulligan: the primal spriit abstarction, however, is a nice reprsesntation of interconnectednessPila Mulligan: nature can serve the same purpose wihtout needing abstractionStim Morane: the point for our purposes is not to reject traditional practice orientations, but to use codependent arising to make them even more radically effectiveGaya Ethaniel: un-atman? Atman in Hindusim?Stim Morane: Yes, PilaStim Morane: Right, GayaGaya Ethaniel: ah okStim Morane: This is a big subject, and one we can't really discuss much here, but the basic idea is that we can benefit from cultivating a return to "primal spirit" and we can benefit from seeing that this "primal spirit" as a guiding feature of our practice is codependent arisen and thus emptyStim Morane: This is not a rejection but an amplification of direct seeing regarding what we've got at a given moment and what is limiting our presenceStim Morane: I hope my comments will not be seen as a criticism of anyone's practice or of any traditionPila Mulligan: :)Stim Morane: I'm just illustrating the Madhyamaka angleFefonz Quan: how can you criticize something that is already empty? :)Stim Morane: true, I cannot criticize what is already seen to be empty by its own nature.Stim Morane: Fefonz, my point was simply that I'm not criticizing anything, just illustrating ...Fefonz Quan nodsGaya Ethaniel: If I don't mean to criticise, it's not a criticism is it ...?Mickorod Renard: I am still a bit fuzzy in the head with itMickorod Renard: ;)Shyama Sheryffe: is fascinated but tired as its late so she waives goodbye to allStim Morane: well, it could be a criticism in form and substance, Gaya.Green Tea whispers: Enjoy your teaStim Morane: By SHyamaMickorod Renard: bye ShyGaya Ethaniel: Bye Shamay :)Fefonz Quan: bye shyStim Morane: Anyway, yes, I see what you mean, GayaPila Mulligan: bye ShyGaya Ethaniel: I don't get that ... but I will think on it Stim.Fefonz Quan: thanks green! (fefoz raises his glass :)Stim Morane: All I'm saying is that I'm using points raised by any of us, starting with Pila today, to illustrate how a certain tradition of codependent arising would unpackStim Morane: For instance, the same tradition would say that the perceiving (yin) mind is no different from the ration (yang) mind that Pila mentions ...Stim Morane: *rationalPila Mulligan: :)Stim Morane: This because both are codependent arising and "empty"Stim Morane: Yes, I know ... :)Pila Mulligan: would that themind agreedStim Morane: But your mind is itself codependent arisen, not fixedStim Morane: This is the idea, anywayEliza Madrigal: this speaks to not being able to reform ordinary mind, which, in tune with nature is/can be a beautiful, even harmonious thing? So ordinary not in the sense of 'mere' but in the sense of direct seeing?Stim Morane: We can thaw out the ordinary mind ... By seeing more of its open, "empty" nature, it can be more flexible, more creative, etcMickorod Renard: would either you Stim or Pila have an example of how this would unviel in everyday practice?Stim Morane: Sure, take angerStim Morane: Anger is hard, frozen, unyieldingly negativeStim Morane: But it is also codependent arisen, thus empty, thus openMickorod Renard: I seeStim Morane: Flexible ... We could see this and stop on a dime, as Americans say.Stim Morane: :)Mickorod Renard: nice ideaStim Morane: The angry mind could be the compassionate mind more or less instantlyStim Morane: Emptiness is useful!Fefonz Quan: that sounds like a very skillful practiceMickorod Renard: I think I may subconciously practice it in a wayStim Morane: Say more, Mick?Mickorod Renard: sometimes,,but more often nowMickorod Renard: well,,its perhaps in relation to my past trend to want to act and control events that i feel are not ideal,,now I see it as empty and give it less importancePila Mulligan: as an ananlogy, your hand or foot may go to sleep (an english idiom) and you can rub or shake it and it will wake up or return to its ordinary sensitivtyEliza Madrigal: hmmPila Mulligan: or oyu can let it tingle and bother youStim Morane: :)Gaya Ethaniel: :)Stim Morane: I'm happy with all sorts of perceived connections along those lines ...Stim Morane: The main point is that things are not frozen, intractibleMickorod Renard: there are many things that i would get annoyed about,,even though the milk has been spilt as it were,,but now I have the pacivity to say ,,hey,,dont worryStim Morane: We don't even have to transform them via some process, they are self-openStim Morane: Yes, Mick, I think that counts.Mickorod Renard: whats done is done,,or whateverStim Morane: And it would also be nice to look more directly at the spilt milk and see that it has never been spilled.Stim Morane: This is the codependent arising pointMickorod Renard: it has little relevance nowStim Morane: The very way that things are present is the way that they are "not"Mickorod Renard: the spilt milkFefonz Quan: can you say more about that one stim?Stim Morane: Yes, Mick, I see what you mean.Stim Morane: Well, Fefonz, this is the main point of the Madhyamaka traditionStim Morane: And we've been mentioning little bits regarding thatStim Morane: But I know it's going to take more time than we will ever have together to really unpack itStim Morane: Basically I'm just encouraging a renewal of direct "seeing"Fefonz Quan: but some more sentences might help :)Stim Morane: Not taking things for granted, taking them as givenEliza Madrigal: :)Fefonz Quan: i thought spilled is just spilled is teh given approachMickorod Renard: its funny,,I was thinking of asking if anyone wanted to do a pab slot on forgivness (an issue close to many hearts),but in a way this covers someGaya Ethaniel: Given?Fefonz Quan: [14:48] Stim Morane: Not taking things for granted, taking them as givenStim Morane: Well, we have 12 minutes left and still haven't even gotten past the first few sentences of Pila's report!Gaya Ethaniel: :)Mickorod Renard: grinPila Mulligan: let's shift over to Fefonz's part maybe :)Fefonz Quan: one minute for every cod-ar link :)Stim Morane: Pila, if we do that, we'll certainly want to come back to your report later.Pila Mulligan: okStim Morane: There are many important things in itPila Mulligan: thnaksFefonz Quan: i can wait to next timeStim Morane: No it's ok, fefonzStim Morane: We can move on to your side for nowStim Morane: What would you like to discuss?Fefonz Quan: it's better to stay on points we all wonder aboutStim Morane: Nice if possibleStim Morane: How are we doing so far?Stim Morane: :)Fefonz Quan: well infact this is close to my point,Stim Morane: Yes?Fefonz Quan: i can see cod-ar as things effecting each other in infact infinite ways, but that happens in time.Stim Morane: Yes.Stim Morane: That version of codependent arising is DIFFERENTFefonz Quan: the spilled milk is connected to many event in the ast and maybe futureStim Morane: YESFefonz Quan: yet, right now, it is slipped.Fefonz Quan: spilled.Stim Morane: my purpose in this forum is simply to trot out a few of the main (quite different) versions of codStim Morane: codependent arisingFefonz Quan: and the interconnectness, or emptiness of that fact, out of time, is very elusiveStim Morane: The one you've mentioned is linked to Pila's "interrelatedness"Stim Morane: There are probably about 7 main types of codependent arising (for this forum)Fefonz Quan: yes, but i wonder more about nagarjuna's pointStim Morane: Nagarjuna's angle was quite different from anything that is easy relate to modern viewsStim Morane: He wasn't denying causal interconnectedness of sorts that figure in modern scienceFefonz Quan: exactly. yet, you wouldn't say it is useless and dated ecause of itStim Morane: He was just saying that for "spiritual practice" it's important not to take anything for grantedStim Morane: This is because his understanding of the real fruit of contemplation is beyond all categories, even beyond "something that is beyond ..."Stim Morane: It is also beyond processes leading to a resultFefonz Quan: but he didn't meant this is just a tool, and reality has nothing to do with itStim Morane: Right, FefonzStim Morane: But "reality" is a loaded termStim Morane: the "reality" he was concerned with is different from the one a physicist studiesStim Morane: Exactly how these two are going to be put in a meaninful relation to one another is a great questionFefonz Quan: it is loaded, and i understand that, but yet when a car is giong your way or someone is going to die, this is not only physical reality, it is personal in any other effectStim Morane: But frankly there is no way that synthesis could ever be accomplished without having the direct awakeness that Nagarjuna was emphasizingStim Morane: Yes fefonz, of courseStim Morane: But the whole range of things involved in your car example don't cover all the bases Nagarjuna was concerned aboutStim Morane: This is why we have our work cut out for us in this forumStim Morane: And why I was so eager to not do the forum!Stim Morane: It's a very tricky subjectStim Morane: "you" are much more than what is injured in car accidentsGaya Ethaniel: Well reality Fefonz is saying happens but after that ... it is no more, it's not reality anymore. That's the best I can describe it.Gaya Ethaniel: [reality' as Fefonz used in both above]Mickorod Renard: is this something to do with deconstruction?Stim Morane: Nagarjuna was interested in the rest of what "you" are, over and above the body, mind, life, death, etc stuffStim Morane: Mick, some people have seen Nagarjuna as primarily deconstructive, yesMickorod Renard: tyFefonz Quan: thanks, that's a great notion Stim.Stim Morane: But I think that leaves out how "deconstruction" itself would work, and what it would achieve, in his contextFefonz Quan: and that ;you' interest me very much too, tha's why i brought that upStim Morane: See, his deconstruction is intended to open to enlightenmentStim Morane: Not just to critique somethingStim Morane: In the ordinary context, if you deconstruct something, you're back in the ordinary contextMickorod Renard: mmmmmmmStim Morane: For Nagarjuna, if you deconstruct the "posits" that constitute our ordinary reality, where are you? What are you?Mickorod Renard: mick needs to do some homeworkStim Morane: He's not going to say, of courseStim Morane: Well, we've just gotten started, Mick. Don't worry ...Fefonz Quan: so in a way, it's more that the 'you' in intrerconnected with the world you see around, the 'you' vanishes, dissolves, IS the world you aperceive around,Fefonz Quan: ia* interconnectedStim Morane: Maybe, fefonzFefonz Quan: is*Stim Morane: I'd have to talk with you more to make sureStim Morane: Unfortunately, we're out of time todayFefonz Quan: not that i can percieve it in less then intelectual senseMickorod Renard: very interesting StimPila Mulligan: thanks Stim, have a nice retreatMickorod Renard: yes,,have a lovely time StimEliza Madrigal: Thank you StimGaya Ethaniel: Would be interesting to hear how you see co-dependent arising Fefonz :)Fefonz Quan: Yes, Thank you Stim!Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy the retreat Stim :)Mickorod Renard: do u have a quick fix for jelousy Stim,,cos i amFefonz Quan: i am just a novice student of that gayaScathach Rhiadra: thank you Stim, enjoy the retreatGaya Ethaniel: I'd be interested in listening if you're willing :)Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe this Sun??Gaya Ethaniel: :)Stim Morane: When we pick up again in a couple of weeks, I will list thenergy 7 or so versions of codependent arising I'm interested in summarizing, try to distinguish them briefly, and continue to explain how some of them relate to your life practiceFefonz Quan: good ideaStim Morane: *the 7 or soPila Mulligan: :)Eliza Madrigal: :)Fefonz Quan: :)Mickorod Renard: I thought there were only 6Gaya Ethaniel: ok look forward to meeting again Stim :)Stim Morane: Bye, everyone! Have a good "vacation" from this weird forum!Fefonz Quan: that's just a number Mick :0Eliza Madrigal: hahaMickorod Renard: he hePila Mulligan: byeGaya Ethaniel: :)Mickorod Renard: bye pila,,thanksGaya Ethaniel: So next 2 weeks Stim's away right?Eliza Madrigal: Sounds like a new tag "Weird forum attender"Fefonz Quan: seems llike thatScathach Rhiadra: yesGaya Ethaniel: Can't we have Pila and Fefonz talking each week?Mickorod Renard: i would like thatGaya Ethaniel: :)Eliza Madrigal: I'm in if soPila Mulligan: I'm nt really capable of filling Stim's place GayaGaya Ethaniel: Just want to know about your practice Pila :)Fefonz Quan: i wouldn't think it will be appropriate in Stim's workshopGaya Ethaniel: We don't have to post the logs of course :) just informally gathering.Fefonz Quan: (for me anyway)Mickorod Renard: I am sure no one can replace Stim Pila,,but you are so very good like stim in your wayScathach Rhiadra: I must go, good night all, NamasteGaya Ethaniel: Open discussions as in PaB you know.Pila Mulligan: thanks Mick, but Pila seconds Fefonz's commentFefonz Quan: Night Scath!Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)Mickorod Renard: nite ScathPila Mulligan: bye ScathEliza Madrigal: Night Scathach