Post by ☮ superbek ☮ on Feb 23, 2009 3:15:13 GMT -5

I think that dead people writing death stories is a good idea... it kinda keeps everyone alive but out of the thread (hence the dead part). It really sucks to play mafia and be the first one voted out.

wow you guys, that was fun. This is the first game I can recall playing where the townspeople actually won.

but let's give it up for kdogg who fought hard all the way to the bitter end.

Post by kdogg on Feb 23, 2009 10:04:57 GMT -5

I wouldn't go patting yourselves on the back too much, Townspeople.I consider your victory* in the same category as Barry Bonds having the home-run record or G.W. Bush winning the Y2K election because of Florida: it should be viewed as questionable due to suspect circumstances

I think I would have had a fair shot at winning this game, had there been a level playing field. But beating the Townspeople is one thing - beating the Townspeople AND the referee is something different.

And the referee was against me here.There was a definite violation of the rules she let slip, and she knows she let slip - she agreed with me that she broke the rules, but that didn't stop her from doing it in the first place.I can't say it any better than I told handgun via PM after she let Bek speak from the grave:

It would have been one thing to let her say "hey, you guys are missing something in my posts..." I think it's something entirely different to let her say "hey, you guys are missing something in my posts... and here's exactly what it is!"I think somewhere between these two scenarios, the Rule 8 line is crossed. If I were referee, I would have ruled differently on this.

3. You just let a dead player change the debate. It doesn't matter which player it is filling which role. I think the spirit of Rule 8 is about keeping the dead from influencing the game.4. Then there's the letter of Rule 8:8) Players who have been eliminated are still welcome to post in this thread, but are asked to not say anything leading to any knowledge, suspicions or opinions you might have.You just let a player who has been eliminated, Bek, say something in the thread about knowledge she had from her role in the game.How in Jesus' name is that not a violation of Rule 8?

I nearly resigned from this game in protest of that action. Maybe I should have...

This might not have been such a problem if I felt this were an isolated mistake. But I don't think that's the case.If you'll notice, I Rule-8'ed Fishingmaniac - a citizen, Carpe - a mafia, and Bek - the Inspector equally.Yet for whatever reason, our referee didn't apply that rule as equally as mafia-me cited it to other players. Really, now? The mafia was enforcing the rules better than the referee? Give me a quacking break.This game was sabotaged by our own referee.

I think a referee should be loyal to the rules first and foremost. Referees are supposed to be neutral, and this extends to equal application of the rules.The fact that Handgun let this slide in one instance, but not the other two, suggests to me she was acting on a bias (undermining referee neutrality was another point I brought up in that PM.) Even if she hadn't been acting on a bias, she sure as hell wasn't acting according to the rules.She broke the rules, and I called her out on it. That's why she posted in the thread to say there was no more talking from beyond the grave.

Handgun knew my goal was to get BlueCadet & Mike into the final round. I knew that if I could get those two into the last round, they would be more likely to be against one another than against me. I figured Mike would join me in voting off BlueCadet.I told her as much when Mike was AWOL and alternatives were being discussed. I told her my endgame plan (trusting that as referee she wouldn't use it against me) in explaining why I would not accept a deal that eliminated Mike.

I think it is a load of crap that the turning point in this game was when a referee willingly and knowingly went against the rules.

Handgun did more to swing this game to the Townspeople than any of the Townspeople did of their own accord.I said in here earlier, as a pseudo-Townsperson, that I would prefer an honest loss to a tainted win.The fact that the Townspeople owe their victory* to the referee does not sit well with me... if the Townspeople think about it, this shouldn't sit well with them either.

Post by kdogg on Feb 23, 2009 10:26:27 GMT -5

I also had the best death story of the game ready to go.It's a shame to let it go unread:

It has been a long weekend at Bonnaroo. It is Sunday, and things are wrapping up with an appearance by Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band.Sadie is laying out on a blanket waiting for the show to begin. The crowd erupts when Conan O'Brien walks onstage to make a surprise introduction for his friend Max Weinberg's band. Bruce & the E Street Band are off to a strong start, when Trey Anastasio steps in to cover for guitarist "Little Steven" Van Zandt for a few songs.Sadie is too into Trey's appearance to notice the shadowy figures sneaking up behind her. A gun presses into her back, and a voice with a noticeable New Jersey accent tells her, "Come with us or die right now."What other choice does she have? She goes along with them.They take her back into the VIP area, where she is taken into a trailer. In better lighting, she makes out the faces of Paulie Walnuts and Silvio Dante. They sit her down and begin tying her to a chair with what appears to be a rocket attached to it. Paulie is stretching out some duct tape to cover her mouth, when Tony Soprano steps out of the trailer's back room."Nice job," he says. "She ready for what the boss wants?"Paulie goes to tape her mouth, but Tony calls her off with a wave of his hand. She asks why his Uncle Junior would want her dead."Nah, nah... Uncle Jun lost it. I'm talking about - " Tony pauses, nodding his head in the direction of What Stage "The Boss."

Five minutes later, Little Steven returns to the stage. Bruce & the band launch into "Born in the U.S.A." The ensuing fireworks display would make even Metallica blush.

Post by elusiveboz on Feb 23, 2009 10:41:06 GMT -5

This word also has a underground meaning once you break it down. Let’s take “Bonn” for example and it actually turns into the word “Bone”. We all know gays use this word to describe the action of when they are fecal fisting their Cuban cabana boy at their sex bath house parties. Now let’s look at Roo, “Roo” is short for “Kangaroo”.So put the full true message together and you get“Bone a Kangaroo

Post by kdogg on Feb 23, 2009 11:01:50 GMT -5

It also didn't help that Bek had made it known to me she had guessed my name during Night 3. I got this in my inbox:

you killed me.

(Which was, hands-down, my favorite moment this entire game.)

Handgun allowed her to speak up in Day 4, after dying in Night 3.She didn't say anything against me, true, but I'll bet she did it because she knew I was mafia.

The Inspector revealing - or acting on - new knowledge gained during the night of their death reduces the "fog of war" factor this game is supposed to have.It introduced information into the debate that wouldn't have been allowed by the normal rules of the game.Win or loss, I think it taints the game.Trust me, I'd have been upset about this as a Townsperson too.

Post by sadielady on Feb 23, 2009 12:33:46 GMT -5

honestly kdogg, you made it all the way to the final round. and what people said from the grave didn't affect my decision at all.i see where you are coming from, and i agree that people should not be allowed to say much once they are dead, but still.you played a good game. i dont think the inspector was taking sides.

Post by handgunhipster on Feb 23, 2009 14:20:37 GMT -5

Seriously?

Its a game. I wasnt being unfair, and you can check the other multiple games I refed and see that I don't side with anyone. Everyone is this game wanted to post from the grave. Yeah, I shouldn't have allowed the Bek comment, but did it seriously change gameplay? Probably not. Numerous people seemed to think Kdogg was mafia before that comment.

I really don't think that a game is that serious. Its not like every ref has been perfect. You sided with the townspeople in one game by announcing that after I had been killed I guessed all the mafia. That hurt the mafia because it allowed the townspeople to know I wasn't a mafia member. But did anyone want to resign? No. I apologize that you think I was biased, but that wasn't the case.

Post by sammy o on Feb 23, 2009 19:43:48 GMT -5

hips you did good, everyone makes mistakes. no biggie! especially in this random but fun message board game. this was a good one game tho. i noticed it was k cause there was a mafia story out before either mike or sadie signed in from the last death. not that slick there dood.

Post by handgunhipster on Feb 23, 2009 19:58:47 GMT -5

That again, would have been my fault for there to have been a mafia story before they logged in.

I'll blame myself before he does. :] He e-mails me the mafia stories, and I tried to hold off on posting them until after I gave everyone a chance to log-in [further proving my being fair] but at that point, sadie and mike weren't logging in and I didn't have a choice, the game had gone on long enough.

Post by bluecadet3 on Feb 23, 2009 20:07:56 GMT -5

Handgun. No matter what anyone else says, you did a fantastic job and I think the game ran smoothly. You didn't have the easiest game to ref. I think we all should just look forward to the next game and not dwell on who did/said what. There were mistakes, we all learned from them, we all had a fun time, the game was very exciting, challenging, and thought provoking. I had a great time playing and can't wait for mafia 13.

Post by ☮ superbek ☮ on Feb 24, 2009 0:06:08 GMT -5

It also didn't help that Bek had made it known to me she had guessed my name during Night 3. I got this in my inbox:

you killed me.

(Which was, hands-down, my favorite moment this entire game.)

Handgun allowed her to speak up in Day 4, after dying in Night 3.She didn't say anything against me, true, but I'll bet she did it because she knew I was mafia.

The Inspector revealing - or acting on - new knowledge gained during the night of their death reduces the "fog of war" factor this game is supposed to have.It introduced information into the debate that wouldn't have been allowed by the normal rules of the game.Win or loss, I think it taints the game.Trust me, I'd have been upset about this as a Townsperson too.

my gut keeps telling me to let it go but I'm not going to.The only people who knew i guessed you on night 3 were myself, you and handgun. you can't misquote someone and expect that to be accepted. quote me all you want, but don't edit any of it out. I knew you were in the mafia before you killed me and everyone knew I was the inspector because I was logged in first. I could have come straight to the thread and posted "hey everyone kdogg is mafia and is going to kill me!" if I wanted to end the game.

I even pmed you and told you not to get bent out of shape about the quote correction because if anything it would help you... if ANY remaining player would have went back and read the thread they would have figured out your game. so yeah, you're welcome.

about the quote...

If I stepped on your toes, then please accept my most sincere apologies... if anything I was trying to help both sadie and yourself by re-quoting the quote.

The way I see it is if you try to kill sadie after I had already claimed her innocence then they would have figured you out... unfortunately sammy is on to you and is looking for a reason to pinpoint you, I didn't want him to find that reason so i was trying to give you an opportunity to bail out of that situation..

That's why I decided to PM you because I didn't want them to figure you out for being on the defense. I wouldn't fret about it too much, afterall, it looks like bluecadet is gonna be the one on the chopping block tonight.

Now that I am dead, I am rooting for both sides. Of course I want the townspeople to win because it seems that they never do, but I am also rooting for you because I like what you've done with this game.

Not to fret, I won't say anything the rest of the game, I am strickly observing.

good luck!

If anyone gave away your identity it was you kdogg with your uber defensive vote nulling. I didn't give away your identity. If I had given you away, then you wouldn't have made it to the final round.

great job to handgun and ALL players.kdogg, I hope to see you next round, if you don't want to play, maybe you can ref.