Which is another reason why the socialism thing doesn't work here. If there is a set goal, in this case a complete raiding set, then how does that even translate to the owner/burger flipper? I can fabricate a goal of a million dollars but that's not even a real goal either of them might have. It's completely arbitrary. Unlike life, in video games there tends to be defined goals that you achieve from playing it. Expanding the methods you can use to achieve that goal stands to increase the number of people who might enjoy your game. The socialism example is a false equivalence.
In video games with mass appeal there is usually a "two track" method to achieving the goal. Ever heard the say "time not skill"? There tends to be a fast track for skilled players and a slower track for less skilled players. The slower track tends to be mainly grinding, collecting, ect ect ect.
It might offend you that people on the slow track could possibly reach you with enough time spent, but for many its viewed as a more fair system.

I said it was akin to socialism, not the exact same thing.

Also, in a system where not raiding you can get the same thing I can, with less hours, frustration and skill that is pretty close to a trash truck driver with no skills making the same amount a a Doctor with 8-12 years of school. You want what I have but do not want to work for it.

Well, I am an elitist. While I do strive to help people on forums and even in-game, if you are not willing to put forth the effort and play the way I play you are not going to be in my guild running raids with me. So yeah, I am elitist. Also, if you do not raid, completing some of the hardest chellenges in the game, why are you entitled to the same gear I am? You are not.

False. The game dictates the challenges and rewards. You do not. Skill≠Effort. Saying raiding takes more effort is arbitrary and not a fact.

Originally Posted by Lathais

You did not put in the hours of attempts for progression. The struggle of building a guild. The hassle of gearing people up to watch them leave just to help the next asshat gear up. If you don't go through that struggle, you do not deserve the same gear as the people that do.

What percentage of raiders go through these struggles. 5%? 1%? Normally just the GM or Raid leader. So your argument is actually saying that your raiders who just show up and do what they are supposed to don't deserve as many rewards as you do because you 'built a guild'. I wouldn't want to be in your raid group. That's not a very humble attitude.

Originally Posted by Lathais

Saying that you do is akin to socialism and saying that a burger flipper deserves to make as much money as the guy who owns the company. I mean, they both work there everyday right? So they should make the same amount of money?

It's not even remotely close. They have the same potential for earnings. It will take much harder and longer work/effort on a lower paid employee to reach standards of a CEO. This is exactly what happens in the real world and exactly what would happen in the microcosm of providing the same rewards in a video game.

Additionally, video games are products that make more money with more customer satisfaction. Adamantly saying that there are social classes that need to be upheld, in a society where most people are disgusted by them, is like asking for your game to fail from personal selfishness.

As someone who raided hardcore and competitively, I see nothing wrong with people coming in my footsteps obtaining the same rewards I had for less effort and at a quicker pace. Never have, never will. It's good for the game, it's good for me.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 01:55 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Lathais

Also, in a system where not raiding you can get the same thing I can, with less hours, frustration and skill that is pretty close to a trash truck driver with no skills making the same amount a a Doctor with 8-12 years of school. You want what I have but do not want to work for it.

Example is not even close to anything that happens in a video game. Example also wrongly assumes inherent values in the game which don't exist. Asking for a different goal to work towards with the same rewards isn't 'wanting what you have but not wanting to work for it'.

Also, in a system where not raiding you can get the same thing I can, with less hours, frustration and skill that is pretty close to a trash truck driver with no skills making the same amount a a Doctor with 8-12 years of school. You want what I have but do not want to work for it.

"making the same amount".
Elaborate on that, please.

Because if you are talking about $/h then raiders have higher gear/hour than IS grinders so even if you could reach raid tier with IS it still wouldn't be "making the same amount". If you want to peg a real life goal, say a house, then yeah. A job with flexible hours like an independently own taxi service could grind out buying a house.

False. The game dictates the challenges and rewards. You do not. Skill≠Effort. Saying raiding takes more effort is arbitrary and not a fact.

What percentage of raiders go through these struggles. 5%? 1%? Normally just the GM or Raid leader. So your argument is actually saying that your raiders who just show up and do what they are supposed to don't deserve as many rewards as you do because you 'built a guild'. I wouldn't want to be in your raid group. That's not a very humble attitude.

It's not even remotely close. They have the same potential for earnings. It will take much harder and longer work/effort on a lower paid employee to reach standards of a CEO. This is exactly what happens in the real world and exactly what would happen in the microcosm of providing the same rewards in a video game.

Additionally, video games are products that make more money with more customer satisfaction. Adamantly saying that there are social classes that need to be upheld, in a society where most people are disgusted by them, is like asking for your game to fail from personal selfishness.

As someone who raided hardcore and competitively, I see nothing wrong with people coming in my footsteps obtaining the same rewards I had for less effort and at a quicker pace. Never have, never will. It's good for the game, it's good for me.

Not False, a Raid Boss takes much more skill than a World Boss. Yes, the game dictates that, and in this case, Trion agrees with me apparently, because if you don;t raid, you cannot get the same rewards as me. Not even close really.

Also to clarify, I am only class leader, though yes, the ones that show up consistently get rewards over those who don't. We do not use it, but that is the reason why DKP and EPGP type systems were invented. Those that put in more work, get what they want first. It's pretty simple. TBH though, most of the posters here probably would not last more than a week in my guild. You and I are both ok with that though.

They do not have the same potential for earnings. As I was trying to point out earlier, yeah, the burger flipper will eventuall make 1 million, but he will still not be equal to that company owner as in the time it took him to make that 1 mil, the other guy already made 10 more. The lower paid employee will never reach the standards of the CEO. He may end up with the same car, but the CEO has 4 of them and a house with a garage to fit them all too.

While it may be true, Rift Devs continue to develop the game in such a way that raid gear is best and the only way to get it is to raid. The game also continues to grow following this model.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, I agree with Trion, you apparently don't.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 01:05 PM ----------

Originally Posted by hk-51

"making the same amount".
Elaborate on that, please.

Because if you are talking about $/h then raiders have higher gear/hour than IS grinders so even if you could reach raid tier with IS it still wouldn't be "making the same amount". If you want to peg a real life goal, say a house, then yeah. A job with flexible hours like an independently own taxi service could grind out buying a house.

However, with wealth, you keep it. You buy things that have value and continue to build more wealth. With gear, once you get the upgrade, the other gear has no value. So in the end, we are sitting on the exact same thing. With wealth, you are not.

I am really done arguing this, as my previous post states, we must agree to disagree here. I agree with the devs decision to make raid gear the best and unobtainable to those who do not raid. You do not. Maybe Rift is the wrong game for you?

However, with wealth, you keep it. You buy things that have value and continue to build more wealth. With gear, once you get the upgrade, the other gear has no value. So in the end, we are sitting on the exact same thing. With wealth, you are not.

I am really done arguing this, as my previous post states, we must agree to disagree here. I agree with the devs decision to make raid gear the best and unobtainable to those who do not raid. You do not. Maybe Rift is the wrong game for you?

Which is in part why your comparison to socialism doesn't work.

Also, to the second part, where did I say that I disagree with the way trion does their loot system? Are you mixing me up with someone else?
All I am talking about is how your attempt to equate this to socialism is silly. I mean really. And the, not so subtle, "get out of my game!" bit at the end is really sad.

Also, to the second part, where did I say that I disagree with the way trion does their loot system? Are you mixing me up with someone else?
All I am talking about is how your attempt to equate this to socialism is silly. I mean really. And the, not so subtle, "get out of my game!" bit at the end is really sad.

Again, I did not say it was exactly the same thing as socialism. I said it was akin, similar to, not identical. It is similar in the fact that one who works harder than someone else is not rewarded more. Everyone, regardless of the work they put in is rewarded the same. It is similar in that fact, not identical, and I never said it was.

Not False, a Raid Boss takes much more skill than a World Boss. Yes, the game dictates that, and in this case, Trion agrees with me apparently, because if you don;t raid, you cannot get the same rewards as me. Not even close really.

Skill is not effort. I don't know how many times I can say that. If you want to reward skill over effort in a video game, then I don't know what to tell you. Most games reward both as it's pretty good for business.

Originally Posted by Lathais

They do not have the same potential for earnings. As I was trying to point out earlier, yeah, the burger flipper will eventuall make 1 million, but he will still not be equal to that company owner as in the time it took him to make that 1 mil, the other guy already made 10 more. The lower paid employee will never reach the standards of the CEO. He may end up with the same car, but the CEO has 4 of them and a house with a garage to fit them all too.

The problem is that life is finite, but video game theory is infinite on a quicker pace. It would take a lifetime to make the same money that a CEO had at a certain point, but that lifetime in an MMO is shortened to months and even weeks. You are actually proving why innately even you shouldn't have a problem with this.

Originally Posted by Lathais

While it may be true, Rift Devs continue to develop the game in such a way that raid gear is best and the only way to get it is to raid. The game also continues to grow following this model.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, I agree with Trion, you apparently don't.

You are completely overlooking the logic being presented. Me saying the game dictactes challenges and rewards means that your personal opinion of who deserves what, how quickly, and how much doesn't matter I don't have any opinion on what the game is doing, it simply is what it is, so I surely am not disagreeing with anything.

Again, I did not say it was exactly the same thing as socialism. I said it was akin, similar to, not identical. It is similar in the fact that one who works harder than someone else is not rewarded more. Everyone, regardless of the work they put in is rewarded the same. It is similar in that fact, not identical, and I never said it was.

Which is entirely subjective.
Does someone who works an intense job 8 hours a day "work harder" than someone who works several low skill jobs and averages 14-16 hours of work a day?

Or better yet, does a dentist work harder than a Chinese factory worker?

Which is entirely subjective.
Does someone who works an intense job 8 hours a day "work harder" than someone who works several low skill jobs and averages 14-16 hours of work a day?

Or better yet, does a dentist work harder than a Chinese factory worker?

The guy who is able to work an intense 8 hour a day job typically does have either more education, or more experience, or something that makes him more desireable than the low skilled guy. Whatever that something is that makes him more desireable, he worked hard to get and/or maintain more than likely.

The dentist worked hard for 8-12 years to earn his degree to be able to be a dentist and I am not in China.

Again, let's just agree to disagree here. This is so far off-topic now it isn't funny.

Yeah, there's always one elitist around who feels threatened if anyone else gets shinies. I don't give a plugged nickel for such bullshit.

I've done my share of raiding over the years, so it's not like I'm unskilled. I'm simply burnt out on raiding. So, somehow to some elitist, that means I'm suddenly some unskilled scrub after years of raid tanking? Yeah, whatever.

Current 3rd tier IS is still less than un-upgraded raid gear. That sends a clear signal that Trion doesn't want to reward anyone equally for putting time into other than raids. That's what I was looking at.

I don't expect to have it as fast, but, when my character stops progressing, I no longer have any reason to log in, much as raiders stop logging in when they have BiS stuff and no new raid. My $15 is just as much of a loss to the game as the elitist's.

I find it hard to believe that this is at all possible. If you work your ass off for something and someone else get's theirs for free there is always some feeling no matter how small that what you have done is diminished. It's human nature. We value what is rare and difficult to obtain.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 02:23 AM ----------

Originally Posted by mavfin

Current 3rd tier IS is still less than un-upgraded raid gear. That sends a clear signal that Trion doesn't want to reward anyone equally for putting time into other than raids. That's what I was looking at.

The reason that the IS gear isn't as good as raid gear is three fold: First you don't need better gear for open world content as it doesn't remotely compare to raid level challenges (and it is unrealistic to try to make it as difficult), secondly there is no gate on how much you can earn, people with unlimited time would rapidly accelerate ahead of players with limited time, and thirdly the effort involved in terms of skill is significantly lower.

I find it hard to believe that this is at all possible. If you work your ass off for something and someone else get's theirs for free there is always some feeling no matter how small that what you have done is diminished. It's human nature. We value what is rare and difficult to obtain.

Gear in theme park MMOs is an eventuality. So long as you show up, by attrition alone, you will win and progress. I see nothing rare or special in this.

Further gear is merely a gating mechanism in tiered raiding. I only ever got stronger relative to content that is beneath my gear threshold. Which is sorta pointless as a point of pride. "More content is irreverent to me than to Johnny!, yea I do find that silly.

I find it hard to believe that this is at all possible. If you work your ass off for something and someone else get's theirs for free there is always some feeling no matter how small that what you have done is diminished. It's human nature. We value what is rare and difficult to obtain.

Just so we are clear, do you mean grinding 600+ IS per item equates to "for free"?

Just so we are clear, do you mean grinding 600+ IS per item equates to "for free"?

Clearly. And that must involve no effort whatsoever. It's not like you have to go to where things are going on, group up, do dailies, do chronicles, participate in events, etc. You know, take time playing the game and accomplishing things.

That is all clearly negated by the oh so complicated task of raiding...where only the most skilled and hard working players reside.

I find it hard to believe that this is at all possible. If you work your ass off for something and someone else get's theirs for free there is always some feeling no matter how small that what you have done is diminished. It's human nature. We value what is rare and difficult to obtain.

To be fair, showing up to a raid and raiding isn't terrible difficult. Having come from both the "show up to raid" side, and the raid/guild leadership side, showing up to raid isn't a massive commitment unless you're in a super serious guild. It's the leadership, specifically the raid organizers/leaders who have to deal with the most drama.

But it's not "for free". It's an alternate path.

You have path A: Raid 2-3 nights a week and acquire quality raid gear rather quickly by spending only 3 hours or so a night raiding. That's not terribly time consuming and is a rather quick path to getting geared if you look at just the time spent raiding. This is assuming you're not getting gear outside the raids.

Path B: Spend dozens and dozens of hours farming a single piece of gear through world events that, while far less challenging, are extremely time consuming. This process takes far longer as even with higher average time invested per play session (say 3 hours 5 nights a week compared to 3 hours 3 nights a week), you're acquiring the gear at a slower calendar rate (i.e. a week of farming for A gets him further than B).

I don't see the huge difference, since it's going to take forever for B to get the gear, and by the time he does so A will be in BiS gear and likely have multiple relics, which B cannot really acquire.

OK, I went back to the original post, and I recognize that there's been a lot of chatter on the thread since, but it has to be said.

Originally Posted by hk-51

They should do their best to stick to the "earn it or buy it" design of the best F2P models.

See the pre-release info for Trion's "Warface" game.

Originally Posted by hk-51

not limit queues for F2P accounts, but instead give subscribers priority queues. [...] The 400 F2P dps will feel compelled to switch to tanks and healers, or at least have a spec of one that they queue for because subscriber DPS will constantly cut in line ahead of them, which will [...] improve the experience for subscribers.

Hold on, so having a F2P account queing "as a tank" 'cause the line is shorter makes my actual gameplay experience better how? If anything, this reduces the chances that I'll get a well geared, competent player.

Originally Posted by hk-51

What should rift sell?
Rift is somewhat unique in that it has some extraordinary customization in both appearance and player housing (spec too but that's something else). Both of these are veritable fields, ready to be plowed, planted, and harvested by Trion.[...] that sort of task (unless its tier gear) is passed off to the army of unpaid interns who work insanely hard in hopes that they might actually get a job.

1 - Management isn't free.
2 - A business model that depends on unpaid labor is exploitative at best. Illegal at worst.
3 - This MMO is not a FPS, and the hat economy pioneered by TF2 is sustained in part by the fact that Valve owns Steam, and makes additional hats available as pre-order bonuses on non-TF2 games.

Originally Posted by hk-51

Another potential source of revenue is selling raid keys (not passes like swtor). Instead of paying for a subscription for access, players could buy their content piecemeal. Players would buy permanent access to, say, grim tidings for 25 dollars. Why 25 dollars? Because the next raid will probably be out 2 months after that.

So let me get this straight - all subscribers are currently paying between $10 and $15 a month. You'd rather have only the raiders paying on average between $10 and $15 a month. And people currently complain that "there's too much focus on endgame" - by converting raiders to be the only reliable payers, this would only get worse?

Originally Posted by hk-51

This sort of model is attractive to players who don't know exactly how much they will be able to play rift. They might not what to have a subscription ticking away when they aren't able to play, but being able to buy a key they know that when they DO have time, they can always go do it.

Provided that they have spent the time to gear up, that 19 other people are interested in doing it at the same time... "Congratulations, you have 400 hit, please pay 25$ to continue!".

Originally Posted by hk-51

In addition to these, there is always the staple of a cash shop, mini pets and mounts. [...] People who want to have a rare mount model will fork over money, but it will still lack the rare mount skin so the elites who have it will be able to say "Well. I got the real one."

Meh.

Originally Posted by hk-51

Now on to the bummer part. Restrictions.
If you go over board with these you will turn off new players. [...] Something that Trion could get away with, however, is limiting the number off specs you can have as F2P down to 2

This counters the benefit you outlined up top, about F2P accounts filling in as tanks.

Originally Posted by hk-51

or you only get 2 random instant adventure bonuses a day instead of 7

Do you even Rift?

It's a maximum of 14 Random IAs / 7 Random Dungeons in your queue, and they regenerate at 1 or 2 per day.

Originally Posted by hk-51

I really can't emphasis enough the need for a tiny stick and giant carrot. The fact is there is going to be a large population of people who will enjoy the game enough to play it but will be unable to justify subscribing due to RL issues like work, school, moving, relationships, relatives, money, other games, friends, ect ect ect. There are a million reasons why someone might be unable to justify a subscription.

And it's exactly these people that I don't want to play! The F2P tank who can't commit time to complete the dungeon. The F2P guildie who never farms for mats, but wants me to make the most up to date gear for him. The F2P IA crew who AFKs through 90% of each IA, but remains active enough to not get auto-kicked.

Originally Posted by hk-51

Now, the most important part is the currency.
One of the staples of a good F2P model is the ability to earn currency. The ways in which people can earn currency will, to some degree, dictate how people spend their time. If you offer trion coins or w/e from doing the daily ghunt quest, more people are going to do the daily ghunt quest. If you offer coins from doing the daily dungeon, more people are going to do the daily dungeon. I suggest giving small coin sacks contain like 5 to 20 coins for almost every daily activity that requires 5 or more people. Then, another huge carrot, subscribers get a buff that increases their coin gain by 200% so they loot 10 to 40 coins. Have minor rifts drop 1 coin, major rifts drop 3, ghunts drop 5, rhunts drop 10, ect ect ect. And have all these gains doubled if you are a subscriber. Then price things, depending on the item, pretty high. Within a determined F2Pers reach, but just outside the reach of a lazy one. That way, people who want to unlock another wardrobe slot can say "I can earn this!" and they will go out and do lots of group activities, making your subscribers happy (as they will be able to find groups easier and faster) and lazy ones will say "well, its only a few dollars."

I have to ask again - do you even Rift? When I log in, there's always a pack of guildies wanting to run random dungeons. Or farm hunt rifts. 60 chat always has DRRs filling, opportunities to fill the last spot in raids. The zone events are nearly continuous - and for those there are sometimes too many (I'm looking at you, Volan!) people. Getting low-commitment people into the game means more server load, more competition for the things I farm (mats, artifacts), and a higher chance to interact with someone who just doesn't care. You put it perfectly here:

Originally Posted by hk-51

If something in your model isn't improving the life of your subscribers... It probably shouldn't be in there

Couldn't say it better myself. F2P makes life crap for paying subscribers. It shouldn't be in there.

Gear in theme park MMOs is an eventuality. So long as you show up, by attrition alone, you will win and progress. I see nothing rare or special in this.

This is true. I was invited to an endless eclipse PuG with Seatin (ex Special Olympics) as a guy who had played a bard for 20mins. The other guys were all top-notch players - so top notch, that they basically 19manned the first two bosses. But, had I wanted the gear, they would have given it to me. All I had to do was keep the motifs and debuffs up on the boss. I won't link dps :P

Attachment to gear is silly. Whether you work for it or are carried, you will eventually get the scraps. They get their marks and you get the loot you don't need. Many guilds, from my experience in WoW had 15 or so "core" raiders on the 25man team. The difference between a "top" guild and a mediocre guild is the strength of the core. Most top guilds get the gear they need to progress to the next boss. From what I've seen, the challenge/skill of getting the boss down is the achievement. The gear is merely a means to an end for them.

Even my current guild does this - the "core" get the boss down and when they are bored, they guys who want the gear just bring in scrubs to fill the spots and much loot is just given to you.