I've watched him play. A lot. Fact. I question if others really have. This isn't baseball.

It's a fact that he produces at a high level at ES, despite having an O-zone start% of under 50% over the past two seasons. You act like this stuff is voodoo. He can also play against good competition. He can be used on a checking line, or as the defensively responsible forward on a scoring line.

I'd argue we have one of the worst defensive forward corps in the league, if not the very worst, and we should be tripping over ourselves to add guys like Read to this team, especially for a goaltender who probably won't be here beyond next season.

Two best comparables, though they're more physical. Read is younger though.

Stalberg lacks Read's hockey sense, Hudler/Fleischmann/Ryder are one-way offensive players. Tlusty/Vrbata could be products of their environments (Staal/Phoenix), or could be solid glue types. Neither's down situations came in great environments.

Read's an every-shift two-way forward, who's relied-upon-ness despite a lack of standout offensive production belies his team importance and his ability to consistently bring what he does well to the table despite linemates and situations. We need more players like that.

Advanced stats are here for a reason. They help us quantify a player's actual performance in a sport where the eyeball test has reigned supreme.

Analogies to minor league baseball and calling players "plugs" without any supporting evidence adds nothing to the converation.

Still waiting for those facts. Pehaps you'd like to comment on the player's chin? He has quite the jawline I hear.

Who said anything about minor league baseball?

Why is Nathan MacKinnon going to get drafted before Drouin? Same team, Drouin scored a lot more. There is a reason the eyeball test still reigns supreme. The sport is subjective. If it were all about stats, you'd have people telling you Matt Read is better than Vanek, and how stupid would that be?

I can't believe the amount of Flyers fans on the Flyers board who want nothing to do with Ryan Miller. Maybe I'm just a biased Sabres fan, but there are few goalies in the NHL who I'd rather have between the pipes..

The Flyers have lit him up a number of times lately, I suspect that plays into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamsApple

Having watched both players, I think Flynn/Read is an apt comparison. considering the differing contexts, I don't think the stats are different enough to warrant the shocked response the comparison received. The main difference is that one of them plays for a team whose fans err on the side of undervaluing all their players and the other plays for a team whose fans do the opposite.

And I agree that i'd hope for a better return for Miller, not necessarily value wise, but something maybe a little less redundant. I think i'd just ask for the 11th pick. But if Read is the best we could do, then i'd be glad to have him.

I also still don't agree that Miller and/or Vanek are definitely not coming back. Things appear that way, but much much crazier things have happened than two players deciding not to uproot their lives to stay with a strong organization.

I doubt Miller and 16 gets 11. Regier should ask, certainly, hell -- ask for 11 and Read for Miller and 16. If that happened, I will do virtual handstands, mostly because doing a real one will likely lead to me falling on my head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar

Two best comparables, though they're more physical. Read is younger though.

Stalberg lacks Read's hockey sense, Hudler/Fleischmann/Ryder are one-way offensive players. Tlusty/Vrbata could be products of their environments (Staal/Phoenix), or could be solid glue types. Neither's down situations came in great environments.

Read's an every-shift two-way forward, who's relied-upon-ness despite a lack of standout offensive production belies his team importance and his ability to consistently bring what he does well to the table despite linemates and situations. We need more players like that.

Excellent take on Read's game. He's akin to Hecht in Hecht's prime (watch the negative reactions now!) when he regularly threw up the ESP. He isn't flashy but he is effective.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Why is Nathan MacKinnon going to get drafted before Drouin? Same team, Drouin scored a lot more. There is a reason the eyeball test still reigns supreme. The sport is subjective. If it were all about stats, you'd have people telling you Matt Read is better than Vanek, and how stupid would that be?

Positional value of center vs wing. Better two-way player. MacKinnon nearly a 2014 draft eligible yet still produced the way he did. Many think he has the higher ceiling. And on and on...

The Read v. Vanek innuendo can stop now--nobody is biting on that strawman, and nobody is asserting that Read is better than Vanek.

The Flyers have lit him up a number of times lately, I suspect that plays into it.

I doubt Miller and 16 gets 11. Regier should ask, certainly, hell -- ask for 11 and Read for Miller and 16. If that happened, I will do virtual handstands, mostly because doing a real one will likely lead to me falling on my head.

Excellent take on Read's game. He's akin to Hecht in Hecht's prime (watch the negative reactions now!) when he regularly threw up the ESP. He isn't flashy but he is effective.

Exactly. Granted, if they look at his numbers against some of the Flyers Eastern competition, doubt may creep in. He's owned Boston and Toronto historically (riffing off the top of my head). *shrug* Those fans are more than happy to see him leave Buffalo.

Why is Nathan MacKinnon going to get drafted before Drouin? Same team, Drouin scored a lot more. There is a reason the eyeball test still reigns supreme. The sport is subjective. If it were all about stats, you'd have people telling you Matt Read is better than Vanek, and how stupid would that be?

The Flyers have lit him up a number of times lately, I suspect that plays into it.

I doubt Miller and 16 gets 11. Regier should ask, certainly, hell -- ask for 11 and Read for Miller and 16. If that happened, I will do virtual handstands, mostly because doing a real one will likely lead to me falling on my head.

Excellent take on Read's game. He's akin to Hecht in Hecht's prime (watch the negative reactions now!) when he regularly threw up the ESP. He isn't flashy but he is effective.

The concern I have with Read is he a UFA in 2014. If I am going to trade for a one yr rental my first choice would be Stastny.

I think Miller would get a 2nd + a player. the 2nd can be substituted by flipping 16 and 11.

I'd want a 2nd, as well. And before people start screaming that isn't enough, Read has 30 ES goals over the last two seasons. Here is the exhaustive list of Buffalo Sabres who've had more than him over that same period:

Jason Pominville: 34

That's it. The end. Vanek had 27. Hodgson had 24 between Buffalo and Vancouver. Stafford had 23. Ennis had 21. Read can produce goals at ES, he's a good skater, and he plays a good two-way game. They should bring him into the fold and work on getting him extended.

Read had 1.5 NHL seasons.....too little data to even measure him.

Who was his center?

I look at him as a similar measuring stick to Clarke MacArthur. Paille in his first year in Buffalo has 19 goals.

My opinion of Read is Meehhh....he isnt a tem savior. I would rather get yournger players and draft picks over him.

As for the "plug" comment by Stokes...I agree if I understand his internt. He is a product of the environment and who you play with and not necessarily skills he brings to the table. a dime a dozen type of player every team has in their system. Thus in a trade, a likely drop off in production.

Simlar opinion of James Neal---his numbers are good because of who he plays with.

I look at him as a similar measuring stick to Clarke MacArthur. Paille in his first year in Buffalo has 19 goals.

My opinion of Read is Meehhh....he isnt a tem savior. I would rather get yournger players and draft picks over him.

he was deployed on all 3 top lines. He played a lot with Couturier in the shut down role, when others were struggling he moved to a top line role for some time with Giroux, and then finished the season playing more 2nd line situations with Schenn.

He's versatile... but you already knew that, since you are pretty "meh" on him, even though you weren't aware of who he played with/how he was used.

he got less than 50% starts in the Ozone, but still was a higher end ES goal scorer

he faced top QOC, because he was deployed defensively

he is not a dime a dozen player... not in today's market, and today's NHLer

My issue here is that I don't think we'll get the team savior from any possible Miller trade. That's when I start considering a player like Read.

I'd love to be wrong, but there are just so few options for Miller.

I definitely agree we're unlikely to get a team saver from Miller straight up, but we don't need to in order to parlay it into better futures, and if ever there were a draft to try and get the next superstar, this is it.

So something *around* Miller and 38 for 11, then 11 and 8 for 4.

I know Darcy has said he gives up, but I doubt that this is anything close to "impossible." Adjust the value if you must.