Even though Alonso seems to be beyond reproach lately, that was a stinker of a quali at a crucial time. Not keeping his cool and overdriving the car. I can only imagine the amount of malice that would go towards Vettel if he had put in this effort.

Even though Alonso seems to be beyond reproach lately, that was a stinker of a quali at a crucial time. Not keeping his cool and overdriving the car. I can only imagine the amount of malice that would go towards Vettel if he had put in this effort.

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

It's no myth, since Newey got his sh** together again in Singapore the car looks to be working/set-up like in 2011, which means the main advantage comes under braking and in slower corners where the exhaust is providing more downforce and stability.

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

It could be possible that RB learned from their Abu Dhabi race and doesn't simply go for grip in their race setup, like it was in their previous races. Seb was not much slower in sector 1 but had very good top speed in sector 2. Until Abu Dhabi the RB usually was the slowest car through the speed traps but not so anymore.

With their old setup it was always a risk because if Seb didn't end up on pole after Qualifying he would have a difficult race due to his low top speed and therefore problems with overtaking other cars. Now he compromised his lap time a bit for better overtaking ability (if my speculation is correct) and as it turned out even that was enough to land on pole. Seb's sector 1 time shows that even with a top end setup the RB is very good through fast corners.

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

I understand that Vettel had a new wing ("which only arrived last night") but do we know whether it was just his car or did Webber have the same new wing? It may just have been the final piece of this weekend's jigsaw.

It could be possible that RB learned from their Abu Dhabi race and doesn't simply go for grip in their race setup, like it was in their previous races. Seb was not much slower in sector 1 but had very good top speed in sector 2. Until Abu Dhabi the RB usually was the slowest car through the speed traps but not so anymore.

With their old setup it was always a risk because if Seb didn't end up on pole after Qualifying he would have a difficult race due to his low top speed and therefore problems with overtaking other cars. Now he compromised his lap time a bit for better overtaking ability (if my speculation is correct) and as it turned out even that was enough to land on pole. Seb's sector 1 time shows that even with a top end setup the RB is very good through fast corners.

I'm not sure how you're getting there ; Vettel has had a completely dominant qualifying car for two and half years. To me there's no question Lewis's lap today > Vettel's ; but that's because one is fighting to wring everything out of the car and the other has a car that pretty much does what he tells it to. Both great laps, just one easier to do than the other. I'd say they're probably as close to on a par as you can get.

As u saw yesterday. Lewis wud be on pole if not for 2 lock ups and 2 missed apices.

Even though Alonso seems to be beyond reproach lately, that was a stinker of a quali at a crucial time. Not keeping his cool and overdriving the car. I can only imagine the amount of malice that would go towards Vettel if he had put in this effort.

This is why I think Alonso, despite being such a great driver, shouldn't be considered in the same category as Schumacher. I was thinking "I have to hand it to Alonso this year, he's been above reproach" - but I want Sebastian to take it tomorrow, because this thing of throwing a tantrum when his team mate is in front, or when reality comes to the fore (ala when Lewis handed him his lunch at McLaren) is a big weakness for him. Schumacher never flipped out if Ruben's qualified ahead of him - usually seemed happy for him, actually - and when the cards were down he didn't turn into a spastic gesticulating monkey in the cockpit. Schumacher at his angriest - when he went after DC - consisted of a brisker walking speed and a tense jaw, *after* qualifying.

Hamilton gets derided for being all reflexes, but it was a small team mistake that led to "his mistake" in China his first year, spinning on tires worn to the threads. Alonso seems a cool customer *right up to the moment of truth*. I think Kimi in Alonso's position would be a different story for that very reason.

This is why I think Alonso, despite being such a great driver, shouldn't be considered in the same category as Schumacher. I was thinking "I have to hand it to Alonso this year, he's been above reproach" - but I want Sebastian to take it tomorrow, because this thing of throwing a tantrum when his team mate is in front, or when reality comes to the fore (ala when Lewis handed him his lunch at McLaren) is a big weakness for him. Schumacher never flipped out if Ruben's qualified ahead of him - usually seemed happy for him, actually - and when the cards were down he didn't turn into a spastic gesticulating monkey in the cockpit. Schumacher at his angriest - when he went after DC - consisted of a brisker walking speed and a tense jaw, *after* qualifying.

Hamilton gets derided for being all reflexes, but it was a small team mistake that led to "his mistake" in China his first year, spinning on tires worn to the threads. Alonso seems a cool customer *right up to the moment of truth*. I think Kimi in Alonso's position would be a different story for that very reason.

Please....

Many excellent drivers showed signs of pressure.

To name a few:- Senna almost stalled his car in Suzuka 88 and was lucky to keep going- When the WDC went into the final stages in 1991 Senna was outqualified by Berger three times in a row. That was also the season, in which Mansell decided to beach his car in a race he had to win...- MSC almost ended his WDC 94 in Adelaide, but fortunately for him Hill was "close enough".- Hamilton didn´t exactly deliver a stunning performance in Interlagos 08- Button couldn´t cope with the pressure for almost the complete 2nd half of the 09-season (he himself admitted that)etc.

If I drove the RB in sector 1 it would have been slower than the HRT, confirming that the RB has hardly any downforce at all.

See the fault in your logic?

Oh, so you say in your logic, that Hamilton can walk over water, deny the laws of physics and can go quicker in a high downforce part of the track with a car that has less DF than the Red Bulls. Did I get your logic right with that??

Oh, so you say in your logic, that Hamilton can walk over water, deny the laws of physics and can go quicker in a high downforce part of the track with a car that has less DF than the Red Bulls. Did I get your logic right with that??

What you wish to fail in understanding is that a driver can make up for those car shortfalls, for instance, lewis excels in late braking, making up some time lost by not having so much downforce as vettel has...

What you wish to fail in understanding is that a driver can make up for those car shortfalls, for instance, lewis excels in late braking, making up some time lost by not having so much downforce as vettel has...

Late braking in S1? Where except for T1?

I guess Mr. Grosjean also showed his superior driving skills as he was a fast as both Red Bulls in S1.

Yes, the Red Bull is most likely (i think it definitely is) the fastest car at this circuit - but the numerous "proofs" people present us in here for their alleged vastly superior downforce are basically just statments like "the car looks like it´s on rails".... which isn´t even true as i can see SV having to correct oversteer at least three times on his pole lap and also one lock up (at the same place as LH had).

Oh, so you say in your logic, that Hamilton can walk over water, deny the laws of physics and can go quicker in a high downforce part of the track with a car that has less DF than the Red Bulls. Did I get your logic right with that??

You erroneously assume the car with the highest downforce must be the fastest in sector 1, discounting the driver and setup.

I guess Mr. Grosjean also showed his superior driving skills as he was a fast as both Red Bulls in S1.

Yes, the Red Bull is most likely (i think it definitely is) the fastest car at this circuit - but the numerous "proofs" people present us in here for their alleged vastly superior downforce are basically just statments like "the car looks like it´s on rails".... which isn´t even true as i can see SV having to correct oversteer at least three times on his pole lap and also one lock up (at the same place as LH had).

Dude... watch Vettel's onboard lap. He could use DRS through most of sector 3, including through all of turns 16,17,18. He was matche by Hamilton up to sector 2. Sector 3, the easiest part of the track according Mark and Lewis, is where Seb pulled out the gap. Oh, and according to this http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7184&p=3 , Vettel left more time on track than Lewis. If Vettel did his best lap, Lewis could not touch him in that Mclaren. And here you see that Lewis had to pull out more from Q2 to Q3: http://en.mclarenf-1...e...=882&s=7184Vettel's car was 1 second faster in Q2.

He could use DRS through most of sector 3, including through all of turns 16,17,18.

No.

He was matche by Hamilton up to sector 2. Sector 3, the easiest part of the track according Mark and Lewis, is where Seb pulled out the gap.

That´s also the part, in which SV had two big oversteer-moments (exit of T18 / through T19) - so the assumption that the RB drove itself in that part of the track is quite questionable. btw. S2...according to all the theories isn´t really Red Bull-territory, yet Vettel was fastest there (whereas 6 other cars were as fast or faster as/than Webber there and even Button not being far off, despite having little opportunity to put in good sector times on medium-tyres) btw. Massa has basically the same S3 time as lewis, i guess that means the Ferrari was as good as the McLaren despite being over a second off LH´s pace...

Or it just means that Lewis wasn´t performing to his max in Q2. I guess that is far more likely, when one guy gets 1 second faster within 15 minutes....

btw. What are you trying to convince me of? That the Red Bull is the best car on this track? I already said, that i see it that way. Doesn´t change the fact, that most of the "proofs", brought up here, are quite insubstantial.

You erroneously assume the car with the highest downforce must be the fastest in sector 1, discounting the driver and setup.

That´s not the point.

The point is, from what basis people can draw substantial conclusions, that RB has a huge DF-advantage, when:

- 1 driver is faster (HAM), 1 equally fast (GRO) and another only 1 tenth off (MAL) on the most downforce dependent part?- despite all the talk, the RB doesn´t look like on rails in faster corners (end of S1 in Vettels pole lap, Turn 18, Turn 19)?

btw. What has setup to do with it?

Are you suggesting other cars put more wing on and therefore could match RB in S1? You know, that this would simply mean, that there wasn´t a huge downforce-deficit then. And as RB are still slowest on top-speed that even wouldn´t have turned out to be a disadvantage compared to RB on other parts of the track (in Qualifying at least).

all this is about who is a faster qualifier between Hamilton and Vettel. I am sorry we will never know until they are in the same car. IMHO though, I think Hamilton shades given the same equipment I believe he will out-qualify vettel. That is my opinion.

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?

When will people learn that Vettel has a 2 seconds a lap faster car in every grand prix he ever competes in and only limps to pole, while Hamilton has been driving the equivalent of a HRT since 2008 and his magnificent driving on the edge has made the difference.

If only Hamilton had been driving a faster quali car this year we could make some comparison between them...... oh wait he has....

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?

You got me.. I just got out the bed. I will get the pole lap. But expect similar.

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?

You got me.. I just got out the bed. I will get the pole lap. But expect similar.

Go ahead. I for myself would be surprised to see all too many differences as the respective times wouldn´t be so close together otherwise...

Anyway...I don´t even know what´s the big fuss about it in here. After all it´s just a single qualifying session - nothing from which one should draw general conclusions (no matter in which particular way). Alonso got outqualified by Massa by 4 tenths. I don´t think, that tells us much....

I must say. I repsect Vettel because he knows the limit of his car. He knows when he can DRS or go full throttle. I think this separates him from Mark.

Don't forget performance was the other way around for much of the first half of the season. It's more a case of the RB8 recovering it's rear grip with the Coanda effect as well as the return of flexible front wings etc, which suit SV.

Don't forget performance was the other way around for much of the first half of the season. It's more a case of the RB8 recovering it's rear grip with the Coanda effect as well as the return of flexible front wings etc, which suit SV.

What you mean half of the season? On the first half season he achieved 3 pole positions. The other 3 pole position came on the second one.

Of course the car improved, but Seb performed all the season and not only on the last races.

Don't forget performance was the other way around for much of the first half of the season. It's more a case of the RB8 recovering it's rear grip with the Coanda effect as well as the return of flexible front wings etc, which suit SV.