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06X-16V Hybrid - Thinking about building a new motor? STOP! READ THIS...

Over the last few years I have found myself loving the 06A/06B/06F family of motors more and more compared to the old 9A/6A/PL motors of late.
Now before any of you are wondering what I am talking about,we will take a brief trip down memory lane.The last 9A motor to leave the assembly line was over 15 years ago and VW made an attempt to revive the 16V with the ABF effort a motor that when transplanted into a MKII chassis brought smiles to everyones ears..
Fortunately for most times have changed and Volkswagen "2nd" Generation (1st generation being external water pump motors) of Water cooled engines have been on the assembly line for over 8 years in chassis's way more popular than you ever could imagine.

Over the last few months since talks about this started to raise,the emails have started to pile on and there are mostly geared towards the same question:

"Hi,I have a 16V motor and I want to know if I should build it up using a 9A block or an ABA block"

to which I reply:
"Have you looked into a 06A/06B block?"

Which results in a 5 minute explanation as to the pros and cons of each set up.The biggest obstacle for the 06A/16V hybrid was obtaining fasteners to bolt the block to the head.
With the help of user = elrey a solution was found via ARP (available via PM)
I was a huge advocate of the ABA/ABF motors 4 years ago (and still am today) but these blocks are for the extremist looking for a bigger rod ratio or taller deck block.

If you are looking into building your 16V motor you really should consider sourcing a 2.0 8V motor out of a MKIV Golf with engine codes below:
* AZG
* AEG
* AVH

Why? Well I have compiled a table of pros and cons of each set up and maybe I can sway a few of you into reconsidering which block to use in your next big build.

Building the 9A outrightPROS:

No need to purchase another block

CONS:

A few parts are getting to the point of NLA

sourcing used parts leaves you scouring the classifieds into 20+ year old motors and such

This is a pretty sound thread but i do have exception to 1 thing
Building a 9A/06A hybrid
PROS:
Same deck height as the 9A so piston/rod combinations are a direct swap
Availability - practically every single MKIV Volkswagen/Audi A4 B5 (late)/ Audi A4 B5 / Seat Leon / Seat Cupra /Skoda Octavia / etc came with a 06"X" family engine making them the most common Volkswagen motor to date.
Internal water pump. chain driven oil pump.
Has facility for a 60-2 wheel on the crank and a VR sensor in the block.
One of the strongest 4-cylinder water cooled blocks volkswagen has ever built with additional ribbing around the cylinder and crankshaft
Serpentine conversion comes standard .
8 different Accessory brackets avaialable making Alternator relocations as simple as a bracket swap.
Oil filter housing has built crankcase breather with provisions for turbocharger oil feed and crankcase ventillation.
Provisions for turbocharger coolant return at the rear of the block if the boss is drilled and tapped for an M14 fitting.
OEM Aluminum oil pan (for those that love AL pans).
CONS: chain driven oil pump.
Convincing people to go this route
I would add the chain driven oil pump to the Con side.
The internal chain is more susceptible to failure and has higher
maintenance cost.
these motors are notorious for the chain guilds wearing out clogging
the oil pump pickup and starving the head, turbo and motor of oil
pressure causing an expensive repair. ask anyone you know who owns one.
My friend with a 1.8T Audi has had this happen twice in 2 years.

another thing to consider is internal timing chain = higher maintenance cost.
external timing belt= lower maintenance cost.
I stopped by a local tuner shop today and there it was another 1.8T
with the oil pump pick up clogged from a worn OIL PUMP TENSIONER
Whole motor starvation. Big $$$$$$
11/5/09

The internal chain is more susceptible to failure and has higher
maintenance cost.

I have owned my GTI since new and still have not changed the oil pump chain.

Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN &raquo;

these motors are notorious for the chain guilds wearing out clogging
the oil pump pickup and starving the head, turbo and motor of oil
pressure causing an expensive repair. ask anyone you know who owns one.
My friend with a 1.8T Audi has had this happen twice in 2 years.

I am going to disagree with this fully.Do not need to ask anyone who owns one because 4 of the vehicles we have here run 06A/06B/06F bottom ends. The clogging issues with the Audi A4 were due to ignorance based on the service intervals.
The oil pump chain guide is no different in quality than the VR6 motors and besides the replacement chain + guide is less than $53 USD.

IM Shaft driven oil pump = IM shaft bearings + installation time (average person in this forum will not be able to change IM shaft bearings) + wear on oil pump internals so it is a catch 22 situation with respect to maintainence.

I have owned my GTI since new and still have not changed the oil pump chain.
I am going to disagree with this fully. The clogging issues with the Audi A4 were due to ignorance based on the service intervals.
The oil pump chain guide is no different in quality than the VR6 motors and besides the replacement chain + guide is less than $53 USD.

And the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL ?
what is the recomended service interval?
l

Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed &raquo;

IM Shaft driven oil pump = IM shaft bearings + installation time (average person in this forum will not be able to change IM shaft bearings) + wear on oil pump internals so it is a catch 22 situation with respect to maintainence.

I have driven several 4cyl VW engines into the 300k+ mile mark and have never
had a IM shaft bearing failure.
and i tend to drive mine pretty hard.
what is the recomended factory service interval of the IM Shaft bearing?
as for oil pump the only time i have touched one is when i am rebuilding a high milage motor,
replacement is allways recomended.
never had a failure.

And the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL ?
what is the recomended service interval?

Notice the failure rate of Audi motors vs VW motors.Alot of Audi owners drove there engines into the ground and I mean a quick search a few boards will show posts I made almost 5 years ago about this same issue.
Not sure why the but this thread was created to give people another scope about what is available out there.Your experience is going to be different to mine based on VW/Audi motors and I mean that in the nicest way possible.
You dont like the oil pump chain guide or the tensioner is fine by me but it is hardly as catastrophic as you are making it out to be.I would take the chain driven oil pump over a timing belt driven IM shaft wabling quirky fitting oil pump any day of the week.

No need to get upset
I just stated good information on the Cost differences and shed light
on a known issue.
I would still like to know what
the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL?
what is the recommended service interval?
I was just on the phone with my a friend that's a 30 year + master
VW/Audi mechanic and he says
timing belt ever 100k or sooner
cross member, oil pan, timing cover, $350-$700+parts
he also said congealed cheap oil is a common factor that causes this failure.

Why is this a con? And shouldn't that be Mk III?
Am I mistaken, or wouldn't you also need a complete bottom end for a 9a/06a hybrid also?
I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm just confused with some of the logic.

I have to agree with NJRado, the ABA blocks are available in MKIII chassis cars since 1994 and they're super available and significantly cheaper than mk4 blocks.
Issam, the new ideas are awesome, we've all been hashing over the same block head combos for what seems an eternity so a new approach is more than welcome. Just be sure to present the information accurately.

FV-QR

hmmm... interesting... I have 6 2.0 9A 16V's complete with heads sitting in my storage unit... and a full motronic 5.9 setup from an OBD2 ABA MK3 siting about as well....
so; what would I need to make everything go?
AEG bottom end, throw in rods and pistons out of one of my 9A's, bolt on the 16V head and plug in the mot 5.9 setup?
sorry for the noob-ish questions... what about timing belt for the cams?

Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)

Another question: So would the 9a/06a hybrid using 9a rods/pistons give you a compression ratio ~10:1? If that's the case I definitely see the benefit over an aba16v for those wanting to stay naturally aspirated.

Re: FV-QR (NJRrado)

AEG bottom end, throw in rods and pistons out of one of my 9A's, bolt on the 16V head and plug in the mot 5.9 setup?
sorry for the noob-ish questions... what about timing belt for the cams?

You can use the Motronic 5.9 from the ABA if you put the hall window from the ABA distributor into the 16V housing.
The camshaft gear is always going to be the MKIV 8V unit whether AZG/AEG or similar due to the offset from the cylinder head cast.Timing belt depends on the tensioner you use.I managed to get an AZG unit to work.
Rey used a Lexus from a 3.0 so it depends on your tensioner.

Quote, originally posted by NJRrado &raquo;

Another question: So would the 9a/06a hybrid using 9a rods/pistons give you a compression ratio ~10:1? If that's the case I definitely see the benefit over an aba16v for those wanting to stay naturally aspirated.

Whatever CR you had in the 9A you will have in the 06A.Think of it as a heart transplant.Same heart different body

this is a great thread. i want to see what comes out of this. i am at the point where i have to rebiuld my 9a because i hydralocked to cilynders.
Is this the final shaping of the motor?
MKIV botom end and block; 9A head with MKIV camgear and timing belt?
How about fuel? i have to run the electronic injection?

Re: (j_m_o_a)

this is a great thread. i want to see what comes out of this. i am at the point where i have to rebiuld my 9a because i hydralocked to cilynders.
Is this the final shaping of the motor?
MKIV botom end and block; 9A head with MKIV camgear and timing belt?
How about fuel? i have to run the electronic injection?

Run your CIS or whatever,the block has no affect on what fuel system you use as the knock sensors are in the same location.

Re: (Issam Abed)

Thank you for posting this, a 3rd option for alot of us.
Personally I would stick with the ABA as the best "bolt together" option. Taller block, rod-stroke ratio, 60-2 wheel, and the fact that I can throw a rock and hit a dozen blocks in any pick-and-pull. 5 years down the road may change may make that more difficult.
I do like the idea of an internal waterpump and serpentine setup though!

Re: (Issam Abed)

Sooooo... can i use the AEB/AVH engine management with a 16V head on it?
i have a complete AEB, as in everything, i also have a AVH less a t-body a head and a computer...
have countless 1.8L 16Vs, and countless forged and non-forged ABAs and the management for all...
what HG do i need?
what rod bearings?
is it too soon to ask all these dumb questions?

Re: (almstVW)

Personally I would stick with the ABA as the best "bolt together" option. Taller block, rod-stroke ratio, 60-2 wheel, and the fact that I can throw a rock and hit a dozen blocks in any pick-and-pull.

True but then there is that issue of pistons

Quote, originally posted by almstVW &raquo;

Sooooo... can i use the AEB/AVH engine management with a 16V head on it?.

AEB and AVH are 2 different engines.I assume you mean AEG/AVH?
If so yes you can use it with a 16V head,just make sure you lengthen the wires for the harness approiately.

Quote, originally posted by almstVW &raquo;

i have a complete AEB, as in everything, i also have a AVH less a t-body a head and a computer...
have countless 1.8L 16Vs, and countless forged and non-forged ABAs and the management for all...
what HG do i need?
what rod bearings?

AEG or AEB?
HG would be AEG/AZG head gasket and rod bearings will be any inline-4.

Re: (Issam Abed)

Cons to the setup for the mk1 guys:
Needs custom motormounts.
Availability of complete mkIV's in junkyards is slim.
People with mkIV's weren't real big on maintenance, meaning lots of heat damage in blocks.
Aluminum oil pans. And that's a detractor for a LOT of people on here. Hell, I've hit my stock oil pan on my mkIII's at a little less than stock height.

Re: (dubdaze68)

im gonna go on the record and vote that the aba/16v is best.
to address the cons, just get an electric drive water pump, and mount it anywhere you want.
get a dry sump system to address any oil issues.
i still run an intermediate shaft, but it doesnt power anything. its machined super thin so its just "there".

Re: (dubdaze68)

i dont know what you mean by "a bit thin on the ground".
if you mean the depth of the oil pan is a bit thin, well, it is, and thats the point.
anyways, there are contemporary companies that make dry sump setups for the aba and later vw 4 bangers.