Main Entry: per·ceive
Function: transitive verb
1 a: to attain awareness or understanding of b: to regard as being such
(perceived threats) (was perceived as a loser)
2: to become aware of through the senses ; especially : see, observe

Perception is 99% of all of our battles.

So what you're saying here, Peanut, is that as long as they pick up some garbage along the way - actual bad bahavior or poor judgement should be overlooked? Just because they belong to Trailwatch doesn't make them responsible wheelers.

We wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior out on the trails from ANYONE traveling with us - whether they are members of the club or guests or someone that just decided to tag along.

So where is the bad behavior or poor judgement outside of the ONE PERSON in the group? Oh and by the way, she was talked to by members of the group THAT DAY and continued to act that way. They were headed back to camp when they stopped at the rocks and she was left with the coolers while the sober drivers played on the rocks for a few minutes. Were they supposed to leave her behind somewhere on the trail or on the rocks?? Tell me Crystal how would you have handled someone acting that way in your group?? Is it different from the way it was handled??? Oh wait......you weren't there so you don't know how it was handled.....
I wasn't even there. So all I can do is pass on the information that was given to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistonsChick

As far as the guy travelling across the meadow - we would have a long chat with him too in addition to sending evidence of his trespass to authorities.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this Peanut - our rules aren't "grey" like yours -- more black and white - because they have to be to protect the sport!

We've previously had this same conversation on other forums - just because they are your friends doesn't give them a free pass...

You're right, we have had a similar conversation before on another forum and as you can see I quoted you again so you can't go back and delete your posts when the conversation is done. In regards to that other conversation, the person involved with that I would consider and "online acquaintance" and I asked him to do something specific in regards to the situation and he did exactly as I asked him to do, and everyone involved "learned their lesson" with how things were handled. You came in after the fact and had to jump mine and everyone else's case about it.

A free pass?? Because in this situation they are friends of mine I knew I could have a conversation with them to find out exactly what was going on instead of assuming that the whole group was drunk and going off the deep end over it. I would much rather find out what actually happened than going in half cocked and creating a huge battle over something trivial. The group wasn't doing anything wrong. The question was whether or not the red xj was part of their group, and the answer is no they didn't know who that guy was. That originally was why I talked to them. If I'm going to be talking to Deputies about an incident on the trail I want to have my information straight so they aren't wasting their precious time going after people irrelevant to the incident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistonsChick

Duck Dodger - keep up the great work! Policing our own is sometimes difficult - policing those who should already know better is almost always controversial...

Your mission was accomplished - you posted the photos and started the converstion. Peanut knew of and talked to those involved -- maybe next time they will modify their behavior while out on the trails. Probably not because they care about right or wrong - but because they care what Peanut and White Trash might think of them.

Peer pressure -- it works!

Ya know Crystal......I'm really not sure where you are seeing that our rules are "grey" compared to your black and white ones. We are all working under the same rules. But for some reason because you and I handle situations differently and can't see eye to eye on that you have to try to call me out or bash me every chance you get. What is your problem??? We are both fighting for the same thing. Just because I choose one way to handle a situation and you choose another is no reason for you to act the way you do. Or is it just that aggravating to you that I can get results by just talking to someone rather that pitching a huge fit about it. I guess I was what was it you said.....oh yes I remember - "too soft" on them
Yes, the ONE GIRL was drunk. I don't care how much "peer pressure" you put on someone it's not always going to get the beer can or bottle of alcohol out of their hand. From the above post you were condemning the whole group because of HER actions which is not necessary and why I put up the post that I did. The rest of the group was doing nothing wrong and being responsible wheelers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistonsChick

I don't have a problem with the trucks on the rocks - I like crawling on rocks as much as the next wheeler.

As long as the drivers of the vehicles had not been drinking, I don't have a problem with them either. Nor do I have a problem with laughing, cutting up or having fun -- we do it all the time. I don't even have a problem with kicking back a few cold ones -- at camp, after we're all done wheeling, racing or riding for the day...

So from reading this you don't have a problem with the drivers, or what they were doing..... but in your other post you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistonsChick

So what you're saying here, Peanut, is that as long as they pick up some garbage along the way - actual bad bahavior or poor judgement should be overlooked? Just because they belong to Trailwatch doesn't make them responsible wheelers.

We wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior out on the trails from ANYONE traveling with us - whether they are members of the club or guests or someone that just decided to tag along.

and this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistonsChick

maybe next time they will modify their behavior while out on the trails.

Having hard time deciding on their behavior or what??? I would certainly hope that belonging to Trail Watch does make them responsible wheelers or why would they join Trail Watch in the first place??

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistonsChick

What I do have a problem with is the "perception" that is created by the clearly inebriated female that was certainly "with" the 4x4's.

Obviously, someone perceived that "those 4-wheelers must be drunk" or we wouldn't be having this conversation would we???

When 4-wheelers learn to leave the drinking back at home and back at camp instead of hitting the trails at full tilt - then, and only then will the perception of the sport of 4-wheeling begin to improve...

I agree that perception is a problem. Condemning a whole group of wheelers because of one persons actions is just as bad as saying that all wheelers are tearing up the trail systems and camp areas.

Once again Crystal, I do applaud you and your club on their efforts in the work parties and everything they do to try to help keep the trails open. But I feel I must remind you again about leaving lasting impressions.

Thank you again Duck for getting the pic of the guy in the red xj. I posted on your thread over on Trail Watch, let me know what you would like to do.

Location: Somewhere between the Port of Indecision and South of Disorder

Posts: 262

My perception was that is was a group of rowdy drunk kids. ( My Perception) Our group had kids in it that were exposed to bad behavior and language from this group, which I did not appreciate. Yes I heard the nasty comments directed at the "Jeep" from the top of the rock when those guys crawled up there. Also there is a certain image that only one out of control group can portray that makes us all look bad.

Drivers drunk... never said they were however it would surmise that they probably were seeing as how others in their group were.

Even if the drivers were not drunk, at least a couple of their passengers were. And standing up in the back of a rig while drunk while your wheeling is just plain stupid and irresponsible on the drivers part.

Bottom line is alcohol and wheeling do not mix, driver passenger even bystander are at risk when your under the influence.

Oh and I never saw a yellow rig up there. I only saw the two crawling the rocks. Nice driving BTW.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkoPo

We all know in the beginning God created the earth and the Heavens. On the second day God created man and Jeep. Man had too much fun so God created woman. Man hasn't had near as much fun since.

Duck I am sorry that yours and any one else's kids were exposed to any sort of bad behavior over that weekend, by this group or any others. I can understand how it can easily be perceived that the whole group had been drinking, even though they weren't. Sometimes it's hard to tell unless they are being blatantly obvious.

There was a group out of Enumclaw on the rocks on Saturday that came rolling in with a guy standing in the back and screaming like a banshee also. The difference with this group though is that they were all drinking. Obviously drinking, beer and other drinks in hand. But that group also ended up with quite a few fines for various things before the end of the weekend.

I am not condoning their behavior in any way. I don't appreciate people acting that way on the trail either and I agree that alcohol and wheeling don't mix. No one is getting a "free pass" here. Had I been there I would have talked to her and them myself right then. By my original post I was not trying to start an argument or huge discussion over perception. We all perceive things differently, but if we don't ask questions as the situation is happening we may end up with false information. That was my point.

And I will have to apologize again for using you as an example here Duck but the conversation is one that can help a lot of people when it comes to the decision to communicate and educate or to report. I don't mean to single out your actions or poo poo them, you did a great job on getting that xj, you did the right thing.

We just need to gather as much valid information as possible when a situation is happening. If this ended up being an incident that you would want to report to authorities they are going to want facts. Rig color, plate, who's driving, description of driver and vehicle, exact location, and pics if possible. If you can say "I saw the driver drinking a beer", is better than "I saw one girl acting drunk, so I can only assume the rest of the group was." The more details they have the more ground they have to stand on when writing citations or getting convictions.
Pistons Chick was correct when she said "Policing our own is sometimes difficult - policing those who should already know better is almost always controversial... "
Policing our own is very difficult because it does happen that occasionally it is someone we know that is causing the problem. You go through the mental problem of "are they going to get mad if I say something to them?" and "I don't want to ruin our friendship". But then again it can be kind of an easy "hey stupid.....what are you doing?" Which is why communication and education should be our first tool.

As for the yellow rig, found out it was broken back at camp and the reason the drunk girl was riding in the back of the truck. The yellow rig is her boyfriends truck. It's just too bad they hadn't left her alcohol with it.

Thanks! Trashy is a good driver, but the truck makes everything look easy....lol. You should have hollered at us, we would have come over and chatted.

Ya gotta stop and think though... The drunk chick and her boyfriend's rig was broke down at camp, the other guys are the ones that built the rig yet they didn't fix it so he could bring it out with them. I'd call that being responsible even though no one with a predetermined impression knew that. Oh, and that chick is just as loud and annoying sober so the drunkeness only amplified it...

All4wheelin was drinking diet pop like usual which is rather suspect to me as no grown man should be seen drinking such a thing...

If you think they were loud you don't want to go wheeling with me, I get really loud when I'm out with "my boys" yet I usually don't even drink in camp, go figure.

Location: Somewhere between the Port of Indecision and South of Disorder

Posts: 262

Hey, I drink diet Coke/Lime, of course it usually has rum in it.

Don't get me wrong I have done my share of whoopin' it up in my day. I guess I have turned into one of those old crotchety farts. But I have learned a lesson from this. Problem is with me I tend to not be real tactful and have been told that I am intimidating. It's an old Marine thing I can't shake. So for the most part I avoid confrontation. I am working on it though.

Like I said, perception and first impressions are all I had and they were not good ones, however mistaken or misguided they were. It only takes 1 person to give a black eye to a whole group. This situation is a prime example. Personally I would have taken miss loud -n- proud back to camp tied her to a tree and when back wheeling. But then that's me.

As far as the Red XJ..... ironically no one from our group or the other T.J. group talked to him. Maybe PNW members need to wake up and step up in this area of self policing. Guess next time I'll step up to the plate and do it. Hopefully the drool dipping from my mouth won't scare them to bad. I have had my shots.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkoPo

We all know in the beginning God created the earth and the Heavens. On the second day God created man and Jeep. Man had too much fun so God created woman. Man hasn't had near as much fun since.

LOL!! Who said you have to have tact?? I've been told quite a few times that I'm "a little forward and to the point". But hey it gets the job done. I just know when to mind my P's and Q's. Love me or hate me it's who I am.

And we all Love her I think we are all after the same ends, and having a slug fest about how to go about it ain't 'a 'gonna do any of us any good...Both you gals I know to be very involved with our sport, and I'm proud to be part of that sport because of people like you. This internecine fueding, on many subjects, needs to stop so we can get after the real issues we have. You know, minor stuff like "bad wheelers", Washington Trails Association, our respective legislatures, WildlandsCPR. Little stuff