So, for that matter, is the book’s back story, as the author, Tuvia Tenenbom, relates it in his preface. Tenenbom spent several months traveling around Germany and recording his observations, and had a contract with the major German publisher Rowohlt, which accepted the completed manuscript and planned to bring the book out in April 2011. But then the head of Rowohlt demanded certain cuts and changes–mainly in Tenenbom’s no-holds-barred references to German anti-Semitism. Tenenbom flatly refused.

“Germans are a tribe, I was told,” explains Tenenbom, “and the tribe will protect itself. This is something I am not used to. Walk into any American bookstore and you will find quite a number of books that are fiercely anti-American. … But Germany … is not America.” An unpleasant struggle ensued, confirming for Tenenbom that German “hate for the Jew then, and the hate of the Jew today … is the same exact hate.”

So it is that the book has now appeared under the imprint of the Jewish Theater of New York, of which Tenenbom is the founder and artistic director.

It’s a book in a category all its own—deeply sobering, depressing even, in its observations of the darker side of Germany, yet at the same time so chatty and engaging and laugh-out-loud funny that it’s hard to put down. Tenenbom is an acute observer of his fellowman, but also a born entertainer, a comedian, who approaches his interview subjects—of whom there are dozens, ranging from leading political and cultural figures to folks he runs into on the street—as a combination inquisitor and tummler.

But it’s all done on a human level: he’s not a journalist taking notes but a fellow human being, intense in his curiosity and incapable of hiding his emotions. He challenges his interlocutors, posing questions nobody has ever asked them before, and he’s relentless, always demanding the truth, wanting to know what these people really think and feel, rejecting their canned answers, the things they say because they think that’s what he wants to hear.

Yet even when they turn out to have emotions that he finds chilling, he’s able—at least in some cases—to like them anyway, able to separate his intellectual revulsion at their ideas from his personal response to them as human beings. He has a gifted playwright’s fascination with people and an unwillingness to reduce them to their opinions. He’s also, as noted, blessed with an extraordinary sense of humor, and indeed it’s plainly his humor that gets him through it all, that enables him to press on and even find enjoyment in so much of what he experiences in Germany–this, despite the apparent ubiquity of anti-Semitism, which, if not the book’s sole topic, is the thread running through it.

138 Comments, 41 Threads

1.
clamdigger53

Get off of the Germans who while they pick up the role of being poor-lazy-socialist europes LIFE GUARD! Who have to contend with a book seller like you! You remind me of a quohogger scratching around the sand looking for something tasty! Is there something wrong with the hardest working and cleanest people in Europe? Wheres your criticism for the Greeks in their lounge chairs waiting for everyone else to bring them a sandwich?

Dave, the problem is virtually all the Europeans are anti-Semites. I’m not sure that German anti-Semitism is distinctly different from other European anti-Semitism. And, really, almost all of the Europeans are tribal in the sense Tenenbom seems to be talking about.

The only nations in the world that have successfully integrated widely different ethnic groups are the Swiss (French, Germans and Italians all together up in the Alps) and the US.

The only nations in the world that have successfully integrated widely different ethnic groups are the Swiss (French, Germans and Italians all together up in the Alps) and the US.
The only reason Switzerland gives the appearance of successful integration is due to geography and having 3 national languages. Switzerland started as a group of cantons and small kingdoms that would rent out their soldiers as mercenaries to neighboring kingdoms and hold the money from both sides in the fight. Over the ages, language and culture drift over the borders from surrounding countries became ingrained in the cantons forcing recognition when Switzerland became a Federation.
Recent surges of popularity by the Swiss Peoples Party have caused problems in their campaigns against immigration by former soviet block countries and Muslims (ie: the no new minarets vote).

No, I’d say the Swiss are not integrated. Each linguistic group live in their own cantons. They are at peace with each other, but not really integrated. (My family came from a German-speaking canton –Baselland.)

Interesting observations, but I would add “collective inferiority complex” to his list of attributes. Also would recommend the book by Steven Ozmentby “A Mighty Fortress” to Tenenbom, as I found it helpful regarding some of the lurking questions I had living amongst Germans.

cogdissonancedagain wrote, “…lebensraum…” and “…untermensch…” These jokes only sound good in German. In every other language and culture they need to be extensively explained.

You have framed the issue with assumptions that are incorrect, so you reach the wrong conclusions. It is because of people like you that the Jews need special protection. Israel offers that protection. You would understand the Jewish problem better if every time the word Jew appears, you would substitute “whale” or “tiger” or “elephant.” Jews are an endangered species and you are on the wrong side of the problem. I would tell you to rot in he!!, but I can already smell the decay emanating from your words.

The name “Palestine” was given to Judea by the Roman Emperor Hadrian in 135 A.D. after he had defeated the last Jewish rebellion under Bar Kochba. From that time, “Palestine” was synonymous with “land of the Jews” or “the Holy Land” (since Jesus was a Jew), and “Palestinian” another name for “Jew.” That is why after World War I, Great Britain was given the “Palestine Mandate” to be “the homeland of the Jews.”
In 1964, in Cairo, Egypt under Nasser and the Soviet Union invented the “Palestine Liberation Organization” (P.L.O.) with phony history and propaganda. Those now called “Palestinian” are Arabs who want to destroy Israel. So your attack on Israel for its treatment of “Palestinians” is based on falsehood.

Hmmm. Let’s put your two “questions” alongside a video of Yassir Arafat admitting that the “Palestinians” do not exist, that they are a problem created by the Arabs for the purpose of using against Israel as a propaganda tool.

How would your questions stack up against that?

BTW, the video does exist, and there is plenty more evidence to the same.

You forget too quickly that Israel had to fight four wars just to exist. Germany wasn’t attacked because of lebensraum. Instead Germany attacked others for lebensraum and caused the death of an estimated 50 million people. There could not be a more obtuse observation. This is the type of thing you’d hear from a Chomsky, Klein or Finklestein.

2 out of 5 Americans blame the Jews for the economic problems of the world – 3 out of 5 Europeans blame us. Oh and Hitler blamed us for them losing the 1st WW and Versailles.

As a member of a family decimated by the Germans I don’t hate them but I demand they remember their heritage. Personally if I was a German with such a heritage I would simply become something else – even a Greek. As a Jew where ever I go I will still be a Jew so I decided to come home to Israel – where apparently many also don’t want me to be. But at least now I am armed. And so I don’t give a sh_t about the above galling comment.

In our worst war in 73 we lost 3000 soldiers (when the country had less than 3,000,000 citizens now 6 million) about two quiet days in Auschwitz or one and a half twin towers. So we aren’t doing so bad.

Jew-haters the Germans? That conclusion can only be the product either of a completely biased mind or a wrong selection of subjects of study (Got them all in a Burschenschaft?). Whatever it is, it is obvious that the author doesn’t have a clue of what’s going on in the World outside America. Btw, I suggest him to pay a visit to some university or another similar leftist den in Spain in order to learn what a real Jew-hater is.

I agree that antisemitism can be found everywhere and is rarely understood in its full horror, but Germans did have a special role in inventing “multiculturalism”. I went over it all over my website, but here is one introduction to the subject: tryhttp://clarespark.com/2009/07/11/multiculturalists-and-wilsonians-cant-diagnose-the-new-antisemitism/, or try http://clarespark.com/2011/10/10/populist-catharsis-on-wall-street/.

What is even more shocking than the links already mentioned is the move to appropriate Nazi or German methods of controlling the little people supposedly composing the mass base of Nazism, by American progressives and leading social psychologists. See the whole sordid story, with examples from Ladislas Farago’s book, here: http://clarespark.com/2010/04/18/links-to-nazi-sykewar-american-style/.

You hunt for something enough in a nation of over 80 million and you’ll find it. Worse, portraying Jews as incapable of hate, racism and bigotry is a case of being careful of what you wish for as this posits Jews as some “other” and not the guy next door.

I have never been to Germany but I have been around long enough that I understand this type of group attack is every bit as depraved as the original Nazi propaganda that it supposedly rails against. The crucial differences are that the Nazis are dead and gone and the guy who wrote this book, like Louis Farrakhan, thankfully has no army.

Some people need a new clock – one that reads 2011 or else I’ll hear about slave ships and Tuskeegee experiments as if they happened this morning forever.

You’d have a point, except that attitudes are not black and white but gray. Many Germans tried to help Jews and suffered mightily for it. Most did not protest or think of antisemitism as unthinkable. They made room for those whose hatred sought expression in simple murder. The consequences are history – undeniable.

What is worse – and this is rarely expressed anywhere – is that the Germans who were killed in trying to save Jews represented the altruistic genetic stock among the German tribe. They have, by their deaths, been diminished among the Germans to the point that the expression of cold disdain is now reinforced not only by social forces, but by genetic tendency as well.

And proof: It will be a test of German isolationism – again, social and genetic – in the outcome of the battle for a united Europe. Will the Germans seek domination or will they withdraw from the EU. IMHO German altruism is the response least likely to dominate the outcome.

Again, be careful with what you wish for and realize there are arguments one cannot afford to win. The flip side of your argument put Jews on trains.

Making a case that Germans are endemic racists is wrong. Certainly Germany went mad in the ’30s and ’40s but this was a learned mechanism and not permanent. Japan went through this same madness and an opposite process, namely reality, brought them to their senses. One doesn’t get the sense in reading about post-war Japan that they were the equivalent of the criminal who is only sorry cuz they were caught but that many Japanese were genuinely ashamed when woke from their provincialism.

I felt this was less true in post-war Germany but those people died out and there are no logical inheritors of the Nazis residing in any numbers in Germany today. I think one can make an argument that Germans despise Nazis more than Jews.

Unless you can show an overarching argument in the form of main stream websites, movies, popular literature, television and the press, it is an anecdotal anti-Semitism that is presented, same as the “racism” of the Tea Party is an anecdotal case.

Yes, Bill, but with qualifications. Every farmer knows that some hens go broody and some don’t. Every farmer knows that some cows are less trustworthy around the children than others. Every farmer saves his best seeds for the following year’s planting.

That being said, “altruism” in terms of genetics is not straight forward. Altruism can be expressed in many ways.

Some people simply refuse to do the bidding of someone who orders them to do something.

Some people express empathy at every turn, while others are more discriminating in when they express empathy. Psychopaths are genetic perverts who never feel empathy.

Some people insist on the logic of reciprocity in human relationships, while others seem genetically to make excuses for others’ loutishness.

Some people are so calm as to appear unbothered by barbs and curses. I know a man who adapted to having been a prisoner in Auschwitz by actively remembering the rare good moments more often than seemed warranted to me.

Altruism can also be an expression of “permission.” Stanley Milgram’s famous studies on how readily does one follow authority in engaging in dyssocial behavior come to mind. There were some potential subjects who simply refused to participate in his study once they found out what it entailed. No followup on these people was ever made, but these were the people who interested me the most.

In summary, our concepts of altruism are too coarse to do the subject justice in everyday conversation. In this area, we remain at the beginning of our search for understanding. It will, in the end, contain some elements of genetics, simply because people come to the table with individual differences that have multiple determinants that must depend upon protein expression at the cellular level when the human is under stress.

Over a Million Germans were murdered by Nazi’s during WW2, either they were found to be aiding Jews, suspected of being communist, gypsy, handicapped, or simply out of favor with Nazism. This is an often overlooked part of WW2.

That this writer cannot differentiate between German and Nazi is troubling, there are enough serious tangible problems in the world without fantasizing and fabricating more.

There is a lot more to anti-Semitism than raw Jew hatred and no one really wants to investigate the long shared history except to wave the bloody shirt.

If Europe is so anti-Semitic why are there any Jews there at all? Pope Gregory the Great called for tolerance and so forth, so some effect.

I would remind you that Europeans are very good at ridding themselves of minorities when they are of a mind to. The Muslim got run out of Spain, starting with a Crusade two centuries earlier. It should be noted that the Jews were staunch allies of Islam and its allies during the conquest: people have long memories.

When was the last time you saw a Cathar say? You don’t need ovens and trains to have a genocide, just cold steel and the will to win.

Again, blame and self-pity, with no analysis or willingness to see if there has been any contributory negligence. Judaism exalts the victim or rather lose which makes Israel’s position intellectually untenable for the locals.

Denver Bob wrote, “Again, blame and self-pity, with no analysis or willingness to see if there has been any contributory negligence.”

Your thesis needs to be expanded and clarified, because right now it is inchoate.

I would like to point out to you, Bob, that 8-month old babies show a clear preference for the victim in human interactions – new research. Favoring the victim is clearly hard-wired. It come down to a matter of both social framing and human genetics. So, anyone can be a victim if they frame it right. It is at that point that careful analysis and setting criteria becomes important. May I recommend to you “Thinking, Fast and Slow” by Daniel Kahaneman.

It has to do with the perception of threat. Threat perception is hardwired for our protection. We react to the oncoming car way before we realize what kind of car it is. By way of example, I do not drive along side 18-wheelers because I encountered one by accident when I was coming home from work one day. Eighteen-wheelers define one threat frame for me. We are hard wired to avoid spiders, but many people overcome that hard-wired frame. Some strange people keep them as pets.

In summary, social stimuli lend flexibility to hard wired responses. Unfortunately, propaganda experts learn how to take advantage of this flexibility. They can remove threat definition by quashing or forbidding discussion and they can create threat by characterizing any behavior as threatening. “Look, he raised his hand!” Was he waving at you to say hello or was he giving you the finger.

I know what you mean. When I lived in India I found out quickly that you don’t beckon someone with your fingers pointing up. Even using all of them. They are supposed to point down. Four fingers down, thumb out. Wiggle while you waggle your head. No prob.

To me framing means to frame a picture. Off topic: Kolmar and Melamid asked thousands of people from various countries what constitutes a good picture. Deadpan funny but not without interest. For example, can one say objectively what good art is? Is desire for beauty hardwired? Kitsch? What is good taste?

Germans have survived on their false sense of security primarily due to their Ward of the State status during the Cold War. They were in a unique position to play both sides of that conflict…and neither side…with one minor exception. They want to be approved of…so the anti-western, anti-war demonstrations were consistently anti-American…because it was like a free bath…washing away their Nazi guilt. To this day…Gorbachev was the game changer at the Berlin Wall…not Reagan…who gets virtually no credit from Germany. Why?

Germany’s foundation is being slowly eaten away by unfettered immigration, political correctness…and their stubborn insistence that Europe cannot function without a strong Germany at the forefront. They are right about that part…but they are overlooking the fact that the rest of Europe is already in an advanced stage of decay beyond their own.

German ingenuity cannot control their hordes of squatters…who ironically, share their hatred for Jews…but likewise, exploit the German naivety of identity. The Germans will wake up in the belly of the beast which devoured them…and no one will hear their screams…Yes…history does repeat itself.

Hello Bruce, Tuvia Tenenbom does not seem to mention the impact of the predominantly left leaning media on modern German and European politics. Nor does he appear to be aware of the tremendous upheavals in Europe prior to World War II instigated by leftist revolutionaries. The mass murders of communist revolutionaries in Russia were well known in Western Europe and certainly contributed to the rise of opposing political parties. Unfortunately the fascist politics many European countries chose was as bad as the communist tyranny. I think modern Europe and Germany would benefit immensely by greater competition of ideas in the media and other cultural institutions.

“..the impact of the predominantly left leaning media on modern German and European politics.”

Good point. There is only one view and if an alternative is ever aired, it is a cherry picked comment or a questionable source that is set up to be a talking point to reinforce the “correct” narrative. The conclusion is already reached before the broadcast/ inteview starts or the aricle written and is simply marshalling the viewers to the “obvious” conclusion.

Unfortunately, it seems to be the same in American journalism. The art of placing one position against an opposing position is too complicated for most readers and writers. Every journalist should be required to learn one hour of Talmud before being let loose on an unsuspecting public.

duh, nearly EVERY nation is ‘a tribe’ EXCEPT for the united states. . . that’s why american exceptionalism is real. tenenbom should get around more and he’d see that. instead, ‘his’ germany is a stand-in for ‘not the united states.’ he’s doubly parochial.

Thirty years ago, while stationed in Ger. (Air Force) I attended a “street fair.” I was sitting in the beer tent with my room-mate, an American Indian. He had a very good grasp of people’s unseen intentions, almost a “psychological radar”. I asked him, “Why are we here?” He replied, “We are sitting on top of the Germans to keep them from marching down the Autobahns and again taking over France as well as the rest of Europe.” I came to find out his observations were very accurate. Germans are true followers and not leaders.

Your comparison is ept, but your feeling tone is derisive. As a person who must have read Freud, I am sure that you recall that murders, butchers, and surgeons all come together in their propensity to sever flesh without vomiting at the disgusting act. It’s how we use tendencies that determine their social value, don’t you agree.

Dear Jerry,
Unfortunately, my 4 word statement did not convey any sentiment, it was just a statement, nothing more. Your feelings about my statement are yours and I wouldn’t begin to question them. I have read Freud and I’m not sure if I agree with you on your point but we can discuss it at another time.
However, that being said I will try to explain my statement in hopes that you can come to terms with your feelings about said statement. At the beginning of the article the author posted this quote…

“Germans are a tribe, I was told,” explains Tenenbom, “and the tribe will protect itself. This is something I am not used to.”

Tenenbom was born in Tel Aviv and runs The Jewish Theater in New York and yet the concept of the “tribe” protecting itself befuddles him.
Having lived in Germany and Switzerland, I can assure him that he shouldn’t take the hate shown by Germans towards Jews personal. The Germans hate everybody…

As you strongly imply, the Jews are a tribe as well. Perhaps you actually stated as much. Indeed, I watch the 10-minute Tribal News program every Friday afternoon – also known as LATMA – developed by Caroline Glick of the Jerusalem Post.

The Jewish tribe is funny though. You can join it or leave it at will, but not without effort. Does that still constitute a tribe by your definition?

Even to remain part of the Jewish tribe one must exert effort. Does that fit your definition of tribe? An individual Jew is always coming or going as he leads his life. Let me see! Do members of a tribe have to constantly prove their interest or loyalty? Jews have to do so all the time.

Well, I guess we are a tribe, because you and many others say so. I feel it is more of an honor society with a long history, illustrious members including God, and a view of the future. Well, a statement like that proves Jews are a tribe. Right?

Dear Jerry,
Although your post is apt, your feeling tone is sarcastic.
While the Greek term Jew historically refers to a member of the tribe of Judah, they along with the tribes of Asher, Benjamin, Dan, Gad, Issachar, Joseph, Levi, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon and Zebulun were the 12 tribes of Israel. As a person who must have read the Bible or parts thereof, I’m sure you and Mr. Tenenbom would be familiar with the various times these 12 tribes protected themselves. In addition, I would also think that someone born in Tel Aviv would have some knowledge of past occurrences in that geographical area that caused the political ruling class to change, much to the bemoaning of some of the historical inhabitants that found themselves in the minority after the change. I hope this explains further, my reply to your first reply to my original non-emotional post.
P.S. As a person who must have read Freud, I am sure that you recall that sphincters, sweat glands and tear ducts all come together in their propensity to perform excretory acts. It’s what they excrete that determines their social value, don’t you agree.

I apologize for filling in the comment field and hitting the submit button and forgetting to put my name at the top of the post. But then again I figured you’d realize it was my reply, having read Freud and all….

“Today there are multiple Jewish tribes as well, but we all hang together at times of crisis, except for those who don’t.”

Jerry,
I assure you I took the term “tribe” exactly as it was meant by Mr. Tenenbom. In addition, you yourself proved my point when you made reference to “tribe” in the statement above and in your prior statements. I find any Jew that says he’s not used to “tribes” protecting themselves as either ignorant of their religious history, the history of the majority of the world or just plain full of crap. Based on the conversations highlighted in the article and the authors methods of interrogation, I’ll go with full of crap.
If we met in real life I think we would have the ability to get along just fine. Basic text conversations do not allow for good conversation because they lack the normal emotional attributes such as a smile or laugh or a nod of agreement. At times, simple look in one’s eye can convey more than a word. Don’t right off an individual simply because you may have a disagreement about how they feel towards a third person.

All societies are only as good or as bad as the individuals that make them up. The blood lust of Christian Europe, over a thousand year time frame, is a result of the indoctrination of religious hatred towards the Jews by the Church. To their everlasting shame.

Dear Menachem
All societies are only as good or as bad as the individuals that make them up. The blood lust of the Jews, over a five ti six thousand year time frame, is a result of the indoctrination of religious hatred towards the everyone by the tribal mentality they cling to. To their everlasting shame and perpetual whining. Don’t go away mad…just go away.

Next time I wonder whatever happened to all the millions of Yiddish speakers who used to exist in Europe I’ll remember not to take it personal, that even if they only set out to exterminate one ethnicity by throwing every man, woman, and child of that ethnicity into a mass grave, they actually hate everybody. They may have exterminated only the Jews, but they actually hate everybody.

I guess if I had to live among these people I’d put my stock in quaint aphorisms like that as well.

While you’re at it you can take time to ponder 258,000 Gypsies, 10,547,000 Slavs, and 220,000 homosexuals the Nazi’s wiped off the face of the earth. They also “euthanized” 173,500 handicapped Germans. These are all rough estimates and don’t include the members of the Protestant clergy that were sent to the camps as well.

“How does one take the murder of ones parents, children, grandparents,etc., impersonally?”

Dear Menachem,
Let’s see if we can answer your question. Considering the article about the book doesn’t answer that question we’ll just have to wing it. I would imagine that if Mr. Tenenbom had lost a grandparent, parent or child in Germany it would be hard for him to take it impersonally. The article never says if he lost anyone in the events of WW II Germany. The article does mention his tenacious breaking down of a couple that he had lunch with, tenacious to the point they wept. Brow beating elderly people seems to be ok if you’re an “American Jew (that) Visits Germany”
But lets expand on your question. What happened in Germany is by no means excusable much like other atrocities that have taken place in the world. There’s the atrocity of Native Americans being virtually wiped off the map by European descendents that we don’t really hear about an more. More recently we have genocide in Darfur and Rwanda and Bosnia that seems to have been forgotten in less than 15 years. But for some reason we have to constantly be reminded of the atrocity of Nazi Germany and the plight of the Jews. Maybe if the Hutus, Tutsi, Cherokees, Mohicans, Bosnian Muslims and others had a better P.R. firm we’d still be beating their dead horses. Unfortunately as in the case of the Jews we have to beat the dead horse until the bones turn to dust. The Jews aren’t the only populace to suffer man’s inhumanity to man but they seem to have cornered the market on perpetual pity.
So in closing to you dear Menachem I appreciate your glaring stupidity.

If you personally would like to be left alone I would recommend not commenting on others posts. If you are speaking of Jews as a group I would certainly enjoy leaving you alone as I did when I made my first post simply pointing out that the author applied attributes to the Germans that were the same as his country of birth. Am I to gather that your chiming in on the subject is an example of the “tribe” protecting itself because I wouldn’t want to stereotype.

We aren’t a tribe – we are a people of just about every ethnic background – white, black and brown, from Ethiopia to India and Libya and Iraq and America with the same religion and history all fighting in the IDF together. I loved the story when the rabbis were deciding how to react to the inquisition – letters were written from East Europe to North Africa and back trying to make decisions. I don’t love my people – I adore them. The existence of Israel is the revenge not only to Hitler but also these anti-Semites on this site!

Those who are closest to the Jews in IQ are those most likely to both hate and emulate them. One standard deviation away seems to be the necessary gap for both tribes to live together peacefully in seperate spheres of expertise. The greatest danger of anti-semitism is hating the imagined (and sadly, some of the actual) Jews so specifically that you take on his characteristics and standards in real life.

Separating those who hate Jews with a true horror of international conspiracies from those who hate Jews with the envy of those who wish to have their own race take over those conspiracies is far more difficult than imagined.

I appreciate the author’s acknowledgement of a specifically German visual intelligence, as Jewish intelligence tends to trend more on the verbal side. I also appreciate his acknowledgement of the necessity of separation. The insufferable characteristics of any race-German, Jewish, or otherwise, are intensely mitigated when that race is forced to take responsibility for itself in its own nation. Walls and borders define and focus internal character as well as protect from external threats. You want free new frontiers to conduct new social and racial utopian experiments, restart the space program (something which we very much DO have to be thankful to both the Germans and Jews. Can we at least agree that their IQs are far better utilized in developing science and technology than the shabby work of dominating zero-sum status games in the financial and media sectors?)

[quote]Chinese, Koreans, and Hindu Indians are not noted for their Jew-hatred[/quote]

They haven’t lived with them in close proximity for years. When you put them together with Jews in an American school, those of higher IQs seem to immediately antagonize them. My white (and black) fellow students tended not to care too much when our resident liberal Jews kvetched on whatever issue was at hand; it was the Asians and Indians who did the yelling and the hooting.

America had a rather Providential IQ distribution for most of its life: Its black population was far enough lower in IQ than its white population, which in turn was far enough lower than its Jewish population, to enable those communities to live at peace with each other through blessed lack of understanding (or excessive contact, given our large amount of cheap land.) This both enabled a virtuous ethic and an individual sense of fair competition: Believing in equal protection is much easier when the people you meet every day are roughly equal to you, and even those who aren’t can manage their own affairs in their own societies.

Now that the gaps between them are being filled by Hispanics on the lower end and Asians on the higher, I expect far more low-level social strife of all types and far more politics by ethnic bloc than politics by belief or philosophy. But this was inevitable; diversity and equality are mutually exclusive concepts.

There are two basic memes from posters on this site: the support Israel meme and the preserve European Christian heritage meme. Their common cause is stopping Islam and ‘the left’. Where this ersatz alliance falls apart is precisely on this issue. To some, the Germans who elected Hitler were just technologically gifted Europeans trying to get their country back and keep the bloodlines uncontaminated by leftist ideology; the Holocaust just sort of happened, it’s regrettable, but it’s all over now, and others have suffered too, so what’s the big deal?
To others, Nazis will always be the benchmark of pure evil voted into power, people responsible for the cruelest project ever undertaken by humanity: the murder of European Jewry.

Europe is more or less judenrein now. Ridding themselves of their Jews was the one pan-european project that had lots of support from most nations. The Nazis didn’t need to coerce the Germans to perpetrate the Holocaust, and with one or two small exceptions, the Germans didn’t need to force any European nation it invaded to go along with the Holocaust. Those nations volunteered to get rid of their Jews.
That’s Europe.

And now, on sites like this, you have people engaged in trying to rally Europeans to get that old nationalist, Christian identity spark back, beseeching some sort of European nationalist hero who will rise up and present a plan to get rid of the Muslims and take Europe back from the dark menace. These people would have been the most virulent supporters of any plan to get rid of European Jews in the 1930s; and now they want a Europe with enough guts to finish the job against Muslims.

And somehow they coexist on this site with a slice of right wing Jews because they view Israel as a crucial (but ultimately expendable) ally in the kampf against Islam.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a forum where Jews and those whose natural sympathy lies with right wing European nationalists so freely commingle. It makes for quite a spectacle.

“Christianity … leads to the annihilation of manhood, it is naked Bolshevism under the guise of metaphysics,” said Hitler. For Hitler, this connection between the compassion and equality of Christianity and Socialism’s originally intended purpose of bringing compassion and equality to those outside of the corridors of means and power was obvious. “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was Christianity. Bolshevism is the illegitimate son of Christianity,” Hitler accused, extending blame also to the Jews. “Both are the offspring of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity; in the same way Bolshevism lies when it claims to bring liberty, whereas it seeks only to see slaves.” – Peter Carl, Surviving Islamism … And Right/Left Politics: Churchill’s Principle – Part III: Breivik v. Hitler

All of this reminds me why we need Israel. The world needs Israel because there has to be a last best place Jews can go to if everything goes to hell in Europe, especially Germany. I’ve always believed that this financial crisis in Europe is going to lead to some serious nationalism, with some countries wanting to lash out at either the Muslims or the Jews, but probably the Muslims because they are already causing so much unrest and instability in Europe.

But if things get bad, really bad, the Jews always have Israel to escape to. That’s why Israel needs to live, it needs to stay, and it needs to remain in the center of the most anti-semitic part of the world just to remind people that you may be able to kill some people, but you can’t kill an idea, which is the survival of the Jewish state.

We need to stand by Israel, even though we have a president that is unwilling to do so now. But let not this temporary madness in Washington depress either you or the people of Israel. A new administration is coming in 2012, I just know it, and then, once again, the people of Israel will know that it has true friends in this world, a friend that will stand by her when all else looks hopeless. Hang on, Israel. There is always darkness before the dawn and a new dawn will be upon us soon.

It’s amazing to hear people complain about the disproportionate attention Israel gets in the media and then make Israel the centerpiece of a benighted, hateful and ignorant world of monkey-like non-Jews.

“…their big masks, their explicit discussions, their constant preaching, their implicit or explicit Jew hating, their lack of spine, their exact ways, their exact lies, their stubbornness, their hidden racism, their constant need to be loved and congratulated, and their self-proclaimed Righteousness.””

A perfect description of American liberals. No wonder the Germans cheered Obama.

It’s a bit simpler than that. European parliaments are socialist in varying degrees despite which party holds the majority. As the US democrat party reflects closer to their approved socialist ideals, and dogmas, they always cheer democrats. Always. The media reinforces that.

As a German with Jewish friends and a supporter of Israel, I found the article just more dredging up of old animosities that most Germans and Jews have moved beyond. Are Germany’s media and academic elites anti-semitic? Yes. Are most Germans anti-semitic? No. Is any of this news? NO.

Norway is a much more overtly anti-semitic society than Germany. Germany, especially Berlin, has become a mecca for Jews from the former USSR, and Jews looking for a place to live outside of Israel.

All that said, few would deny that there is some injustice in Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians (overly severe restrictions on travel and commerce in the West Bank). No one should be surprised if a few European liberals get upset about it.

Europe is more or less judenrein now thanks to the unflagging efforts of German society. Other than a few token figureheads, no one was ever held accountable for the murder. When lower level Nazis and perpetrators were given jail terms after the war, the Germans overturned their sentences.

They got away with murder. The reason they got away with it is because they had the silent majority in Germany behind them, not to mention the rest of Europe. It also helps that dead people can’t complain. Germany made sure there weren’t many refugees left around in Europe to remind people of their crimes; just piles of human dust.

If you actually have Jewish friends in Germany, then they are likely either completely deracinated or they are nominally Jewish arrivistes from Eastern Europe. The rest of German Jewry pretty much disappeared after the war. So it’s no wonder that to you, “most Jews” have already moved beyond the German engineered destruction of European Jewry. It’s completely understandable why Germans would want to forget, and it’s understandable why Jews who live in Germany would want to ‘move on’ as well; what choice is there?

Nice touch about the Palestinians. Living refugees have a way of nagging at the Western conscience the way dead ones don’t. That foresight must have been what motivated ordinary Germans to shoot women and children in the back of the head, day after day, and continue to murder Jews on sight even after the war was lost.
The dead ones aren’t complaining much, are they?

Interestingly, there is a popular survey that shows 2/3 of German youth believe that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is the same as what the Nazis did to the Jews. And this is the German generation that has supposedly un-learned all the hatreds of the past; apparently hatred has been replaced by ignorance.

Thanks for helping, Pete. Deir Yassin had what, 150-200 people killed total, over the course of a months-long war in which massacres were perpetrated by both sides–I’m sure you’ll recall that after Deir Yassin, the Arabs massacred a convoy of doctors and nurses going to Mt. Scopus. That’s guerilla warfare.

Really no comparison to the planned extermination of millions of people for doing nothing but being born Jewish in a Jew-hating continent, except in your own mind.

You are most welcome anonymous. Deir Yassin was before Israel was ever a country, and the killing still goes on to this day. I could go into the Biblical accounts of the slaughter that started well before the kingdoms of Judah or Israel were ever founded but the point would be lost on you because there is really no comparison to the planned extermination of millions of people for doing nothing but being born in Canaan.

The individual Germans who exterminated European Jewry were allowed to live out their lives with state pensions by modern Germany. When these Nazis received prison sentences for their crimes, the state of Germany overturned these verdicts. These individual Germans never paid for their crimes, thanks to the indifference of the modern nation of Germany.

Smugly announcing that they’re almost all dead now anyway is rather flippant, considering that at no time did Germany ever take it upon itself to hold these murderers accountable.

A few did pay for their crimes. Some were secretly removed and taken to the United States where they lived out their time quite comfortably working for the Government. Strange thing war in that one minute you’re hurling bullets and bombs and then behind closed doors you’re in bed together.

What is real? What is fiction? What is hate? Having read an article of Tuvia Tenenborn in the Zeit, describing his meeting with Neo-Nazis (far-right Deppen)and a group of Autonomen (far-left-wing Deppen,I simply have to admire his ability to blur the boundaries between reality and fiction, and, by adding some speculations about the nature of Germans, creating a reality that embraces not Germany nor the Germans but only 2 groups nobody is proud of. Perhaps I should visit some of your prisons and represent the inhabitants as normal Amis? No, we hate nobody but “we” are rather fed-up with everybody, I admit. Most Germans would love to leave the EU if we could. And we love nature, specially trees and forests. I know people who embrace trees, but I never met a German who tries to embrace a car, not even a Porsche.

Aside from the obvious deceit in the comparison of Jews in Europe during the Holocaust ( loyal citizens of each country who had built, treasured and defended with their lives their individual countries ) with the so-called ” Palestinians ” who already control and have autonomy over 80% of territorial Palestine ( who have no loyalty, have built nothing and are actively engaged in murdering anyone unlike themselves ) their are two points worth noting-

1) The Germans where not engaged in a war over territory with the Jews. Jews who left Germany were pursued, as were Jews throughout Europe, The Germans did not want the Jews out- they wanted the Jews exterminated. This they did in every country they controlled. While the Jews of Israel may want the ” Palestinians ” out, the Israelis have no intention of exterminating them. Let them live and be well…. elsewhere. It is the ” Palestinians ” , in fact the militants of Islam, that are the true Nazis. They are the ones who preach extermination. They are the one blowing up Jewish centers and bombing all over the world. They are the true modern day Nazis.

2) The Nation of Israel is capable of wiping every single belligerent country off the map. israel has had a nuclear device since 1955 and a fully operational delivery system since 1961. Since then we have been attacked many times but have never resorted to using the weapons of mass destruction we have. The bottom line is there will never be a second Holocaust. That those people who plan our demise and drool over our destruction had better confine themselves to their masturbatory fantasies. We are on no mood to play fair anymore.

Your are entitled to you beliefs of course. However after some investigation Christianity for me has no appeal either morally or intellectually. That a person could live a life of crime and then on his death bed mutter a few words and get into heaven? Then of course historically, Jesus , the illegitimate son of the Jewess Miriam and a Roman soldier Pantera, a failed rabbinical student who studied magic in Egypt ( wine to water, many loaves from one, walking on water, rising from the dead were common tricks ) does not stand up to scrutiny. Neither do the actions of Christians over time. No thank you. I respect your right to worship as you choose but that doesn’t mean you got it right. So save the snarky comments.

Thank you for your permission to worship as I choose. How very nice of you.
I am sorry that after “some” investigation Christianity doesn’t float your boat. If you had done some serious investigation you would have found out that forgiveness of sins requires a little more than saying a few words. I imagine with your pompous attitude that it was things like Jesus Christ’s criticisms of the Jewish priests and their corruption of their faith that probably did more to turn you off. But I won’t take the time here to discuss your violent, vengeful religion. When the Pharisees tried to trick Jesus with their question of “Which of the commandments is greatest?” he knew what they were about and replied “Love the Lord God with all your heart. And love your neighbor as yourself”. I can see where your nuclear backed war mongering attitude might have a problem with that. Sorcery was common well before Jesus’ time as you well know with the Red Sea and water from a rock and the walls of Jerico, but there is one trick that was not only prophecized but fulfilled, that being the life of Christ. Find one reliable source that disproves the resurrection of Christ and we’ll talk.
On that note, I will remind you that the snarky comments between the two of us were started by you on a post above. So why don’t you go remove the mote from your eye and get back to me.

If the parting of the Reed Sea was a bit of sorcery, as you proclaim, what does that make of the bible you revere? If the Torah is false so then all testaments based on it are necessarily false. You have painted yourself into an intellectual corner. Not the first time.

On the contrary, you stated that the miracles of Christ were nothing but “common tricks”. If his miracles were mere “magic” as you described, then the miracles of your Torah were mere magic considering the were done by the same God. Nice try but again, you failed.
I would also suggest you study the Gospels of the New Testament for any reference to Jesus Christ and his lineage and the fulfillment of prophecy as opposed to the Tosefta or other materials written by Jews that not only deny the divinity of Christ but invent out of whole cloth, stories and fables to justify the rejection of Christ by Jews. The conversion of Paul was a miracle as well, and his continued life of evangelizing and persecution is a testament itself as to the divinity of Jesus Christ and his common tricks.

The suspension of logic you adhere to in order to maintain your position is obvious. You have built a poor edifice on a solid foundation. Your inability to grasp that there is a difference between the two is your problem.

Your logic not mine. But then I can understand where you might have trouble following from point A to point B because of your narrow tribal view of things, people and history. I may have been mistaken when I said you needed to remove the mote from your eye before you start complaining about the speck in mine. You might want to remove the boomerang from your butt that keeps you coming back to make another fool of yourself.

No one was gloating over anything. It was a statement made as a counter point to someone else’s statement about total annihilation. Don’t allow your emotional reaction to someone’s comment cause you to assign emotion to their comment.

What a load of junk. The most deeply anti-Semitic nations today are probably the UK, Sweden, and Norway (with the Netherlands and France not far behind). Driven by …. MUSLIMS! And PC/Multiculturalism, the two are related.

Germans are no more innately evil or good than anyone else. Germans of today could not even invade a fabulous gay disco, being that Bruno is probably closer to most Germans today than anything else.

Most Germans to the extent that they think of Israelis and Jews ape the “smart set” views of NPR, the New York Times, the Guardian, and Le Monde. There is no hate (unlike the very real hate that results in stabbings, beating, and murders in Scandinavia or Britain, done almost exclusively against Jews by … Muslims). Most Germans cannot be bothered to care, so full of Green idiocy are they, that they are functionally indistinguishable save language from the inhabitants of NYC’s Upper East Side or LA’s Malibu.

I agree completely. Where we disagree is on the subject of the UK. In my experience they are by far the most racist, bigoted group in the world. I don’t know if it comes from the empire attitude or not, but it was certainly in place long before the Muslims started immigrating in any number.

About 80% of native american populations were wiped out by disease.Thats means their immune systems couldnt adapt to the new diseases coming from settlers from Europe.The same settlers btw who were fleeing persecution in Europe.Chew on that thought for a while.

As for the Germans, if they still hate everyone ,then the chains of prison will remain upon them until they accept love for their fellow peoples.These arent chains imposed by Jews or any other group, but from within.

In a war between Iran and Israel , the free peoples of Israel and the West win hands down.Rebellion within the dictators country would ensue should war break out.

The author David Stannard estimates the loss of native Americans to be 100 million. He admits that the majority probably died of diseases brought to America by Europeans. Rudolph Rummel estimates 2 million to 15 million. Am I to take that it was by “the same settlers btw who were fleeing persecution in Europe” as a mitigating factor? Two wrongs make a right…chew on that for a while.

“As for the Germans, if they still hate everyone ,then the chains of prison will remain upon them until they accept love for their fellow peoples.These arent chains imposed by Jews or any other group, but from within.”

My statement that Germans hate everybody was a sweeping statement I admit. That being said, the author of the book the article was about is described as being relentless in his dealings with people he spoke, to the point of causing them to break down. Should he not have loosened them from their chains? He is a Jew and not only is he holding them accountable but society has held the German’s chained since what happened happened. Are we to hold every country involved in every war accountable forever for what they’ve done? I think as a people we need to get off the German’s backs. They’re tired of having WW II shoved in their face and if they hold a little resentment for the constant reminder of the Jews then they have a reason to be angry with a world that let’s the Japanese, the Soviets and the Italians off the hook for the blood on their hands.

“In a war between Iran and Israel , the free peoples of Israel and the West win hands down”

and the west….how about this time Israel goes it alone. I for one am tired of going to war for a state that spies on it’s allies and acts as if they are owed something….chew on that for a while.

Unlike the US/Indians or any other example of genocide you can care to mention, the Germans didn’t exterminate the Jews because they wanted land. The Germans hunted down and murdered every Jew they could find, even if they had been living as part of an established society for generations. This was an extremely personal crime.
A vibrant Jewish culture existed for centuries in Europe into the age of television. Now it doesn’t, because Germany murdered them all as part of their plan to make a better Europe. Judging by your responses, you’re not too bothered by that. But some people are.

I never mentioned land as being a reason for anything anyone has done. I simply pointed out that the author described Germans with attributes that could be applied to his own birth country and apparently that put everyone’s knickers in a twist. You haven’t paid attention to anything I’ve written because you are of the opinion that I am not bothered by what happens to the Jews. Reread the entire article and every whining, whinging comment made by yourself and others and maybe you’ll understand that I am of the opinion that war and mayhem and genocide is all wrong. Reading comprehension must have been replaced with “wearing my race/religion on my sleeve 101″ and sadly it is a subject that fails you as you go through life.

I pay scant attention to you because you exhibit genteel traits of passive/aggressive antisemitism. You exhibit what to my mind is an outmoded way of thinking that thankfully began going out of vogue after WW2. The fact that you apparently believe in Bible fairy tales doesn’t strengthen your case.

Anyway, I’m glad we cleared up the fact that Germany’s planned extermination of European Jewry was nothing like the displacement of people from conquering land. And I’m glad we set straight that dying of disease isn’t the same as a carefully planned, years-long mass-murder incorporating all the elements of German technology.

As for wearing my ethnicity on my sleeve, deal with it. The days when Jews are meant to be apologists went up the chimney at Birkenau. You and Hutton Gibson can sniff righteously at the indignity of it all if you want.

Dear Anonymous,
I hardly call 6 replies to my posts and replies to your posts paying scant attention. You exhibit to me a pathetic individual who can only go through life displaying to everyone that if it wasn’t for your ethnicity/religion you would be nothing but just another poor slob making it through the day.
You decided that the displacements of peoples from conquered land or death because of disease were the only reasons for any atrocity not connected to WW II Germany. In doing so you dismiss the tragic consequences of the evil nature of man because the victims weren’t Jewish. FYI: Anne Frank died of typhus and not Zyklon-B but we still count her death as a tragedy of the Holocaust. Lets look as some of your moral relativism.
Here’s a list of the big atrocities:
WW II…63 million ( Jews weren’t the only ones that died because of faith or language or ethnicity differences, sorry but it’s a fact)
Mao…40 million (mostly through famine)
Genghis Khan…40 million
British India…27 million (mostly famine)
Fall of the Ming Dynasty…25 million
Joseph Stalin…20 million (because alot of the victims were of different race or ethnicity or just because Stalin was a bad dude and wanted them dead)
Are we, as a society, to hold the Jews responsible for the atrocities they have committed since Jews were created? I’m only using your rationality when I ask. Rough estimates from just the Biblical accounts are well over 1 million and that doesn’t include the battles in 2 Chron v 13 nor the cities of Gibeon, Ai, Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. Joshua left no survivors. Most of the killings were not because of land but between Israelites who had their lands given to them. When Judah defeated Israel you’re looking at 500,000 casualties alone.
So if you don’t like my genteel traits I really couldn’t give a tinker’s damn. There is no one more anti-Semitic than a Jew. The Orthodox don’t recognize conversions under certain circumstances, as a race you discriminate against other Semites. As I told a fellow tribe member of yours earlier, if my Bible is fairy tale then so is your Torah. As a race/religion you chose a murderer to be freed over Christ and hung him on a cross…deal with it.

P.S. The Nazi’s killed 1 million Christians. The Soviets killed 15 million Christians between 1921-1950, and another 5 million until 1980 all in the camps. They were killed simply because they were Christians. deal with it.

Anyone who uses the bible as literal source material is not to be taken seriously.

The Germans murdered the Jews because they were Jews. Edith Stein was murdered not because she was a Catholic nun, but because she had ethnically Jewish genes. Hitler laid out his intentions clearly in mein kampf, and Germany went along with him systematically dehumanizing Jews, forbidding intermarriage, removing them from certain businesses and posts, and all that before the first German scientists started testing Zyklon B. Stalin’s killings et al were not so precisely thought out; they resemble more the whims of a mad man rather than the carefully conducted German science project of getting rid of the Jews once and for all.
Nor am I lecturing Stalin’s victims that it’s time to forgive and forget; I wouldn’t dream of being so presumptuous.

Your relativist thinking along with your hypocrisy is very reassuring. The Jews were not the only ethnic group affected by the Nazis and those groups were effected specifically because of their ethnicity (I refer you to my statement of 10 million Slavs). But seeing as how your comprehension skills are lacking I see no point in providing you facts to support my statements.
Good luck with the “woe is us” attitude.

I wouldn’t dream of telling Slavs its time to forget about the crimes of Nazi Germany and move on, just like I wouldn’t say that to Stalin’s victims. Yet, you feel obligated to wag your finger and say just that to Jews.

While the Nazis certainly targeted other ethnic groups, with no one was it as personal as with Jews. Slavs were inferior humans, Jews were sub-human and the source of Europe’s misfortune. Indeed, subsequent Nazi policy reflects this. Jews were treated much more severely than Slavs or anyone else, regardless of whatever death totals you care to supply. And again, I’m not denigrating what happened to them or telling them to stop complaining, as you are to Jews.

I now concede that the Jews are the most put upon race/ethnicity/religious group ever to have existed or ever will exists on the face of this earth. In addition, I have never wagged my finger at anyone during this entire post exchange. I fully admit that any numbers of effected populations are estimates and not of my own counting. Further more, my offering of said affected population were in response to questions or statements made by you and although I do not blame you for my answers, they would not have been provided had you not paid attention to me, especially considering that several posts back you stated just that(“I pay scant attention to you because you exhibit genteel traits of passive/aggressive antisemitism”).

Again, just for clarification, I now concede that the Jews are the most put upon race/ethnicity/religious group ever to have existed or ever will exists on the face of this earth.

I must also congratulate you on becoming more irritating that a severe case of jock itch. If you take that as an antisemitic statement well I’m sorry but it has nothing to do with your race/religion/ethnicity…the fact that you a whining relativist is just that. If you would like to call me a Nazi for that premeditated, very personal attack I guess I will just have to bear that yoke.

Sorry I changed my mind…Jews are not the most put upon race/ethnicity/ religious group ever to have existed or will ever exist on the face of this earth…I still think you’re more irritating than a sever case of jock itch.

No “genocide” ever took place in the Americas and Stannard must be high on acid to come up with 100 million; hasn’t he ever read Cabeza de Vaca? Mayans and Aztec Indians dominate from Guatemala to Nogales so the death squads weren’t very efficient. The Spaniards wanted the natives intact, to work as slaves and in N.America they simply wanted them gone and pushed them ever West. America’s policy towards the Indians was ad hoc from start to finish and the Spaniard were reigned in by their church almost from the very beginning.

The conquest of the area south of the Rio Grand as far as Central America was far different from what occurred in North America and in neither case were people essentially murdered on sight by being transported to death camps nor did what happened in Rwanda ever happen in the Americas.

The examples given were to provide instances of bad things happening to different people in different places. If you want to discuss specifics and split hairs over who got it worse hook up with Anonymous and have at it.

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide states:
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:
…any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Forcing indigenous peoples on to reservations, forcing their children in to specific schools certainly fits the bill. I would love for you to explain the Cherokees how the Trail of Tears doesn’t fall under the above definition.

“It wasn’t the bad economy that turned the country to Nazism; it was the Weimar people and their righteousness.” Zeh germans begs to differ: It was just the pleasure of doing evil deeds and that’s that.

P.S. Just one little part of the text dedicated to the german muslims seems not enough to me, because of their (overgeneralizing) strong antisemitic views and their growing numbers. If he rly wants to get into the business of a’ism then that is where he needs to begin his journey, for an accurate picture of modern day germany.

FACT: Almost no German alive today participated in the Holocaust. The ones who did are all DEAD.
FACT: The very few remaining old men who participated in the Holocaust are not honored in Germany in any way. Former members of the SS do not get their service time in the SS credited towards their pensions, unlike members of the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.

It truly is time to move on. Yes, what was done by the Nazis was unspeakably evil. But what is the point in hating the children and grandchildren of the Nazis? Keep poking at them, and they will end up resenting you, and rightfully so.

Always fun to see the German haters come out of the woodwork, dredging up s**t that happened a lifetime ago.

You’re projecting. I don’t hold the murders committed by one group of Germans against generations born later. It’s more like the stench of Nazism and the total extermination of Jewry clings to Germany, and I can’t simply ignore the stench. And it’s not just Germany; it’s much of Europe.
Europe is one big Jewish graveyard. And on top of this graveyard, the executioners live happily ever after. Obviously, some people have no problem with that. But some people do.

As to whether these descendents of murderers resent me or not, I couldn’t care less. The days when they could translate their resentment into aktions is quite gone.

The whole world is one big graveyard… the 20th century saw major genocide in Europe, Turkey, Cambodia, vast tracts of the former USSR, and China, just to mention a few. The list goes on and on. Unless one places a higher value on one race than another, such as Armenians are more valuable than Cambodians, its hard to say this was more evil than that.

I don’t think it is healthy to dwell on the past, once you have understood what happened. Many Germans today are expellees or descendants thereof from all over Europe, forced to flee their homelands after WWII just because they spoke German. Aside from some natural bitterness, there is no serious talk of returning, even though they could under EU law. None of them are setting off car bombs, or making trouble for the folks who live on what was their property. They have accepted what happened. It is over.

Anyway, I doubt if any country in Europe today is a better friend to Israel than Germany. I believe Germany and Israel should unite politically. Alternate presidents every few years, free exchange of goods and people. Full military integration. Tell Iran to suck a**.

How lucky are you that there are no Jews setting off bombs in German biergartens. Did you ever consider that? The Germans got away very lightly for what they perpetrated. There are quite a large number of aggrieved nations who have a right to start setting off car bombs in Germany for a lot worse crimes than being kicked out of a land because of a surname.

Germany exterminated European Jewry out of existence. The killing itself may be over now, but the extinction lasts forever. How am I supposed to feel about that kind of place?

Germany didn’t just turn Europe into a Jewish graveyard. It turned Europe into a mass Jewish grave. Extinction lasts forever. Europe is a much, much lesser place because of it.

Don’t expect me to think kind thoughts about the place or the people who apologize for it. Just be happy no one is setting off car bombs in your biergartens.

Well, this gives us a good indication that many Germans and Germanophiles are not ready to discuss the Holocaust at all, other than to say “it happened a long time ago, now move on. And that is an order!”

@ Anonymous: Why would Jews want to set off bombs in beer gardens? Because they’d likely be killing other Jews. There are plenty in Germany now, and it would be a good thing if there were more. Germany needs Jews.

Why did Germany give Israel two advanced Dolphin class submarines if they don’t like Jews? That’s right, they did not cost one shekel.

I may be a German, but I am a strong supporter of Israel. I am not alone.

I may be a German, but most likely I have an Jewish ancestress in the maternal line. That makes me a Jew also. I am not alone.

You first mentioned car bombs, in the context of ethnic Germans being kicked out the east once Germany was defeated. I”m merely pointing out that considering the enormity of the crime perpetrated by Germans against Jews, it’s rather remarkable that there was really no revenge attacks by Jews on Germans.

As you suggested in your earlier post, Jews have indeed gotten on with their lives after the destruction of European Jewry. Jews have gone on to build Israel. Jews went to America and have done great things there, too.

Jews are a literary people, maybe the most literary people in the history of the world. After centuries of clinging to life in Europe, Hitler’s willing executioners destroyed them in an orgy of German pride. There’s no way Jews aren’t going to read and write about this event forevermore, as they do with all major events in their history.

Contrary to your belief, the study and research of the Holocaust is just beginning, not ending. Indeed, as long as the perpetrators (and survivors) were still alive, true research among Germans was not possible because there were a plethora of war crminals and their families who didn’t want to face the truth.

You say that it’s too late to confront people with the truth now because almost all the perpetrators are dead, and that if the Jews continue to confront people, they will be resented. But Simon Wiesenthal faced the exact same resistance from Nazis and their apologists when he began to investigate in the 1950s, when “ex” Nazis were rebuilding Germany.
Anna Rosmus faced the same hostility when she tried to investigate what her townspeople really did during the war, instead of believing the lie they told the world. For her troubles, she was hounded out of Germany. That was the 1970s, and even then it was impossible to truly confront people with the truth. There has never been a time when Germans didn’t resist truthful inquiries about the Nazis among them. Unfortunately, that is also part of the German legacy: the crimes, and the denial.
Believe me, the study of this subject is just beginning. And I’d imagine younger Germans are going to be more open towards investigating the truth than you are.

BTW, as far as the “free of charge” submarines, I recently read some German research that stated Germany stole enough money and property from the Jews it murdered to finance 1/3 of the cost of WW2. So, let’s keep a little perspective about these “gifts”.

The Germans are perplexed because of the unique and unfair burden of guilt they shoulder. The Holocaust was no worse than slavery, colonialism, or the innumerable American genocides of the Cherokee, Dine, Hopi, Sioux, etc. The only reason anybody cared about such unconditional, wanton slaughter was that for the first time it was directed against other Whites. The genocidal capitalism the White race invented came to directed against itself.

Now,the descendents of the victims of Nazi corporate power have established a genocidal racist, corparchy whose racist atrocities against Muslims have exceeded anything the Nazis did a hundredfold. Auschwitz and Dachau are everyday life for the residents of the West Bank and Gaza strip under the jack boots of Zionazi Israel. Germans are confused for the guilt they feel for the final solution,but perhaps also becuase those who survived the final solution have spawned a more horrendous solution of their own.

Recently, I have been thinking that anti-Semitism is so powerful, so persistant, and so widespread that it has to be a miracle–a negative miracle. The fact that Hitler in 1944 felt it was more important to use trains to take Jews to Auschwitz rather than supply his soldiers, and the fact that the Palestinians have never been able to make a deal that would give them an independent state suggests that God has taught both Hitler and the Palestinians that it is more important to hate Jews that to work for one’s own interests.

@Helvena: Some Jews ARE obsessed with Germans, but not for the silly reason you provided. They are just upset about the Holocaust. To them it is a singular event, because it concerns them. However, the 20th Century provided ample proof that inhumanity is universal.

The Hollywood Nazi is simply a result of losing WWII so spectacularly. For every Nazi, there was lots of decent Germans either trying to get themselves and their families through the war, or actively resisting evil.

My last comment (I promise): I find much more anti-Semitism in the German diaspora than in Germany itself.

No M of D., it isn’t the holocaust that interests most Jews. To most Jews the holocaust is just a scary story that produces sympathy. Jews want to be something that they know they can never be; that is a people of grace. Compare Israel to Germany.

Everyone’s kind of ignoring the fact that a large number of Jews had pretty much this same attitude toward Communism, which DID play on Jewish fears of extermination, DID depend on the (often atheistic) Jews in Russia for their enforcement, popularization, and execution, and DID kill more people than Naziism. Not to mention radicalizing the Jews who lived in America with talk of ANTISEMITISM IS EVERYWHERE WE MUST CRUSH THE INFLUENCE OF CHRISTIANITY IN THE SCHOOLS TO MAKE SURE IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. And the less said about Hollywood the better.

Those Jews (mostly atheist, it seems) here who talk of eternal vendetta against Germany are displaying exactly the attitude that led to Communism. (No, the fact that they were purged by the very movement they started does not absolve them of the responsibility for starting it in the first place.)

Of all the people who do in fact need to forgive their previous oppressors for the sake of the world, the Jews are it. Their general anger creates far too much strife to maintain a coherent civilization, their plans for revenge double back on both them and people who never wronged them, and their great intelligence is used for playing the endless dreary status games of leveraged high finance, media manipulation, and manufactured revolution. (All three of which create contempt for the common man.)

You have the highest IQ in the world (Germany probably the second highest) and you’re wasting it on global feuding with those who actually have responsibilities outside of the fever swamps of avarice. Either come to Christ or at least go to Israel, where people like Netanyahu show that intelligence applied toward RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN PEOPLE can produce a real-life example of virtue to frustrate the anti-Semites.

How many attacks were perpetrated by Jews against former Nazis or anyone else after WW2? Please answer that question.

The fact that there were no revenge attacks after the war doesn’t seem to matter to paranoid people like yourself.

Indeed, as you suggest yourself, “go to Israel.” There, the Jewish people are doing great things, and learning about the extermination of European Jewry by “real Europeans” is an essential part of the Israeli identity, part of what gives them the courage to strive for excellence.

That’s the most forgivable sort of revenge! Were Jews to individually and in small groups assasinate the ones personally responsible for the worst aspects of Nazi genocide, the sympathies of the world would lie with them far more readily. But the harebrained schemes to make “Never Again” a reality by:

People don’t see Jews as the Inglorious Basterds, they see them as the string-pullers behind the scenes working for the Man, and it’s largely because that’s the strategy you collectively decided to go with: Other People’s Money, Other People’s Soldiers, Other People’s Issues. Israel represents an opportunity to take those actions and those responsibilities yourself, as a nation and a race. Attempting to be half one and half the other will result only in rage and destruction on all sides. An international people is not a people at all.

No, you’ve already stated that Jews are destined for another Holocaust and that it will be entirely their own fault because so many of them are liberal, and according to you have criminalized Holocaust denial and made discussion of IQ verboten.
You then went on to add that “most people” view American Jews the same way traditional antisemites viewed European Jews, as leeches who usurp other people’s money, issues, and soldiers, and that they’d better go to Israel (or find Jesus) before it’s too late.

And now you want to pretend that all you’re trying to say is that you want Brett Ratner to win a popularity contest with Harvey Weinstein.

Your irrationality is like that of an angry child. Why would anyone listen to you?

“Your irrationality is like that of an angry child. Why would anyone listen to you?”

Because I describe the reality of human experience. So does Brett Ratner, for that matter. But I don’t want Ratner to ‘win a popularity contest,’ I want him to have the power, money, and independence that the Weinsteins have, and misuse in the service of liberalism. ‘Tower Heist’ shows what a fantastic eye he has for society as it is-not how some paranoid Jewtopian central planner wants it to be. But I’ll let his IMDB page speak for him:

“There’s no difference between a tacky Jew from Miami and a rap star. They both want the Cadillac and the Rolex with the diamonds.”

“No matter how successful you are, you are not invincible. The studio is writing the checks. It’s all about leverage and who has the power. The goal is to get the biggest deal you can, because you are going to have to give something back to the studios anyway.”

“When Jonathan Demme said make your own version, I couldn’t see anyone but Anthony Hopkins and I couldn’t see anyone but Anthony Heald as “Dr. Chilton”. I can’t see another acting doing it. But what happened was I went down to the FBI, and discovered they’re like tough New York Cops. They weren’t like Scott Glenn.”

So to recap, here’s a Jewish producer who:

1. Actually meets with the people and professions he films in order to get a good picture of their behavior.

2. Is okay with making generalizations to get a larger social point across(NOOO STEREOTYPES IT BUUURNS US!!!)

Y’know: mature, tactful, and practically anxious to show people as they are and how they play off each other rather than relying of what’s going to please the prejudices of liberals. The type of person who could head off a future Holocaust by sheer force of truthful vision in the present. A near-perfect role model in his work if not always in his life. A way forward. A model for you all. A guy who could have made Superman Returns (The archetypal Jewish story!) watchable instead of the sterilized gay fever dream Bryan Singer came up with. Bad philosophy leads to bad decisions.

Catholicism is biological, planting its traditions early in human minds and slowly nurturing them within a church structure when growing up. Protestantism is chemical, continually scouring, distilling, and reviving the essence of a basic philosophy and interpretation of the Bible. Judaism is radiological, among the most powerful and beneficial of critiquing forces but utterly destructive of all good things if not properly circumscribed either in the individual or the society. Destroying a Jewish society is an action more in line with breaching a nuclear reactor than killing a man or smashing a statue. The radioactive fragments, if left to themselves, will, slowly or quickly, affect all around it, most often for the worse. One should not unleash either the wise or the foolish.

(Oh, and Islam is like runaway nanotech, turning all under its purview into the same drab vaguely inhuman sludge, incapable of development.)