DelPen wrote:So did Malkin get a bye to the finals? Confused why the best player in the world isn't in the bracket anywhere.

hmm... he turns 26 before the contest is over. Maybe that's why they excluded him.

The poll is for who is the best player "under 25", not "25 and under" - since Malkin turned 25 a year ago, he wouldn't be in that group.

If you look at all the players, they are all currently 24 and under, except Letang, who turned 25 back in April....so my only guess would be that they must be looking at players who finished the regular season at 24 or under, or perhaps, who don't turn 25 until sometime during 2012 or later.

SolidSnake wrote:The thign I don't get about this poll, is how can you compare a defenseman vs a forward? they are different positions and important to their team in different ways

People vote on who the best player is every year. Sometimes it is difficult to judge who is the better player between a defenseman a goalie or a forward (Sometimes even between a centre and a wing), but it's done all the time. I think you can get into tough judgments a lot of the time, while in other cases it might be pretty clear.

Example, who do you think is the better player, S. Crosby or P. Martin? Probably not a tough call.

mikey287 wrote:I mean, you're matching Karlsson's lone peak season vs. Letang's entire body of work...Letang has a 6th and 9th place Norris and a "third" team all-star...so it's not like Letang is so far out there that Karlsson is off in the distance...

Randy Carlyle has a Norris and Scott Stevens doesn't...

They're both top-10 d-men in the league and since I usually base my opinions on players over a longer stretch of time, I'd still say they're pretty close. If Karlsson puts up another historically good season and Letang becomes the 2nd best d-men on the Penguins, then ok, you got something...but I'd like to see what Karlsson can do next season before I start annointing anyone king of the world...

Just because 2 players are top 10 at their position does not mean they are necessarily close. Jason Spezza was one of the top 5 centers last season. Was he even close to Malkin? The difference between Karlsson and Letang is much less disparaging, but both being top 10 d-men isn't a qualifier that puts them as near equals. Just to clarify, I don't think Letang is several notches below Karlsson, but Karlsson is decisively better.

One further note, possibly unrelated, but I am a huge fan of Letang and worry that this "defensive pipeline" we've created is going to point to Letang being the player that is traded is the near future. Hope I'm wrong, but the mythical pipeline only works when trading coveted d-men that have already established themselves and Letang is the only one that fits this bill now and in the near future.

steelhammer wrote:One further note, possibly unrelated, but I am a huge fan of Letang and worry that this "defensive pipeline" we've created is going to point to Letang being the player that is traded is the near future. Hope I'm wrong, but the mythical pipeline only works when trading coveted d-men that have already established themselves and Letang is the only one that fits this bill now and in the near future.

In a vacuum, several of the players the Penguins have selected could turn into a Kris Letang-type defender. I think Letang is a very good player, but he's not infalliable, and if Shero recognizes that Morrow, Dumoulin, Harrington, Maatta, or Pouliot is an upgrade, then Letang's leverage for his next contract might be less than anticipated. However, Letang certainly seemed to drive the Penguins "success" last season, so he's obviously very important to the team right now.

I think Karlsson is a better player than Letang is most facets of the game, with the exception of straight-line speed. If Letang has any deficiency, I think it's maturity and hockey IQ. Hopefully, those will both improve as Letang continues to gain experience as a top-flight defender.

mikey287 wrote:I mean, you're matching Karlsson's lone peak season vs. Letang's entire body of work...Letang has a 6th and 9th place Norris and a "third" team all-star...so it's not like Letang is so far out there that Karlsson is off in the distance...

Randy Carlyle has a Norris and Scott Stevens doesn't...

They're both top-10 d-men in the league and since I usually base my opinions on players over a longer stretch of time, I'd still say they're pretty close. If Karlsson puts up another historically good season and Letang becomes the 2nd best d-men on the Penguins, then ok, you got something...but I'd like to see what Karlsson can do next season before I start annointing anyone king of the world...

Just because 2 players are top 10 at their position does not mean they are necessarily close. Jason Spezza was one of the top 5 centers last season. Was he even close to Malkin? The difference between Karlsson and Letang is much less disparaging, but both being top 10 d-men isn't a qualifier that puts them as near equals. Just to clarify, I don't think Letang is several notches below Karlsson, but Karlsson is decisively better.

One further note, possibly unrelated, but I am a huge fan of Letang and worry that this "defensive pipeline" we've created is going to point to Letang being the player that is traded is the near future. Hope I'm wrong, but the mythical pipeline only works when trading coveted d-men that have already established themselves and Letang is the only one that fits this bill now and in the near future.

Yes, not necessarily do two "top 10" players become close. However, in this case, they do. Unless you believe in the "what have you done for me yesterday" way of evaluating talent, Karlsson certainly isn't the best d-man in the league. So, I mean, just speaking in the abstract, you got Chara/Weber as top two, in either order. Then, what? Karlsson/Letang/Doughty/Boyle/Pietroangelo as a cluster of some sort...? Suter/Seabrook/Campbell/Enstrom coming up after that...? Karlsson having a Norris and then having another Norris-type season this year would certainly help to vault him ahead of the cluster and he probably heads it up already, but...

Your argument started as: "Karlsson, and it's not close."

Now it's: "I don't think Letang is several notches below Karlsson"

It's not disagreeable that Karlsson might be "decisively better" but only if it's proceeded by "fairly close", as in "it's fairly close, but Karlsson is better" - or "Karlsson is decisively better, but it's still pretty close." ...it might sound like nitpicking on my part - and for that, I do apologize - but I think it's worth picking at...Karlsson is "[better] and it's not close" than Letang...how does it apply to Chara/Weber? The cluster (if it's agreeable) that they share? Maybe some context outside of Karlsson/Letang would help me understand your point of view a little better, if you care to share (and hell, why not, it's the offseason and Shero is on vacation... )

Karlsson has the edge at least for now. Letang put up 42 points in 51 games. Who knows where his totals would have been if he played a full season. I think there relatively even-footed if you compare their strengths and weaknesses. Karlsson has a better offensive game(not by a huge margin), but he's a better passer and more fluid on the puck, but Letang has a better defensive game and plays very physical when he wants, more physical than Karlsson. If this is all based on the ability to put up points, then Karlsson has the obvious edge, which is also what the Norris is more largely based on.

We can argue that Karlsson put up those crazy numbers on a somewhat offensively challenged team and made them stronger without much help and that Letang does so well because of who he plays with, but it's really not so cut and dry. While Letang obviously benefits from playing with the likes of Sid and Gino, the team has shown to suffer greatly in Letang's absence.

mikey287 wrote:I mean, you're matching Karlsson's lone peak season vs. Letang's entire body of work...Letang has a 6th and 9th place Norris and a "third" team all-star...so it's not like Letang is so far out there that Karlsson is off in the distance...

Randy Carlyle has a Norris and Scott Stevens doesn't...

They're both top-10 d-men in the league and since I usually base my opinions on players over a longer stretch of time, I'd still say they're pretty close. If Karlsson puts up another historically good season and Letang becomes the 2nd best d-men on the Penguins, then ok, you got something...but I'd like to see what Karlsson can do next season before I start annointing anyone king of the world...

Just because 2 players are top 10 at their position does not mean they are necessarily close. Jason Spezza was one of the top 5 centers last season. Was he even close to Malkin? The difference between Karlsson and Letang is much less disparaging, but both being top 10 d-men isn't a qualifier that puts them as near equals. Just to clarify, I don't think Letang is several notches below Karlsson, but Karlsson is decisively better.

One further note, possibly unrelated, but I am a huge fan of Letang and worry that this "defensive pipeline" we've created is going to point to Letang being the player that is traded is the near future. Hope I'm wrong, but the mythical pipeline only works when trading coveted d-men that have already established themselves and Letang is the only one that fits this bill now and in the near future.

Yes, not necessarily do two "top 10" players become close. However, in this case, they do. Unless you believe in the "what have you done for me yesterday" way of evaluating talent, Karlsson certainly isn't the best d-man in the league. So, I mean, just speaking in the abstract, you got Chara/Weber as top two, in either order. Then, what? Karlsson/Letang/Doughty/Boyle/Pietroangelo as a cluster of some sort...? Suter/Seabrook/Campbell/Enstrom coming up after that...? Karlsson having a Norris and then having another Norris-type season this year would certainly help to vault him ahead of the cluster and he probably heads it up already, but...

Your argument started as: "Karlsson, and it's not close."

Now it's: "I don't think Letang is several notches below Karlsson"

It's not disagreeable that Karlsson might be "decisively better" but only if it's proceeded by "fairly close", as in "it's fairly close, but Karlsson is better" - or "Karlsson is decisively better, but it's still pretty close." ...it might sound like nitpicking on my part - and for that, I do apologize - but I think it's worth picking at...Karlsson is "[better] and it's not close" than Letang...how does it apply to Chara/Weber? The cluster (if it's agreeable) that they share? Maybe some context outside of Karlsson/Letang would help me understand your point of view a little better, if you care to share (and hell, why not, it's the offseason and Shero is on vacation... )

Not really. I thought he was pretty easily outplayed by Seabrook this year and probably last as well. Keith's Norris will go down as a historical anamoly. It's doubtful that a player as inconsistent as he could produce another such season or anything close to it (referring to his Norris season). He doesn't have a ton of hockey sense I feel sometimes, tends to chase plays and pull himself out of position. He's not a horrible player, but he makes more mistakes than Seabrook I think. Keith might be in one of the next two "clusters" or so, if I were to continue that list...