These don't count? The fighting in GH and ICC is no worse than the fighting that came before in previous Xpacs. Yes...Varian committed an act of war. The question is...did war follow? And it doesn't seem that is the case. Whatever Varian said or did, it appears to have resulted in no armies being moved, no sieges being initiated, no conflicts begun, no navies unleashed. It resulted in zero quests, zero impact to the story. It had no ramifications, no consequences.

Regardless....we've had this discussion before, we'll no doubt have it again (unless the next novel spells things out) but this isn't the thread for it.

EJL

All the Bgs in BC and Vanilla were merely skirmishes on the frontiers or borderlands
As the Horde and Alliance were in a state of Cold War, not open war

Varian probably calmed down from his little bitchfest and realized that the Scourge are still the main priority

All the Bgs in BC and Vanilla were merely skirmishes on the frontiers or borderlands
As the Horde and Alliance were in a state of Cold War, not open war

Varian probably calmed down from his little bitchfest and realized that the Scourge are still the main priority

The point being that there is nothing...absolutely nothing...in game or lore to suggest any major change in relations beyond this. Thrall didn't want war and Varian, as you put it, appears to have calmed down. His act of war does not appear to have led to a state of war. Raised tension, ended cooperation? Yes. More?

She should be angry with herself for helping murder her father, because helping the horde back then has now lead to the destruction of Theramore. It would be cool to see her massively regret that decision and get angry, not so much at the horde, but at herself.

As bayushisan stated though, she killed her father to save Thrall's Horde, Thrall's Horde joined with her to fight the demons and the undead. Thrall's Horde left her small expedition force alone after the events of Hyjal, despite the fact that they could have wiped her out. She was willing to work for peace with Thrall's Horde, and she didn't realize how much different Garrosh's Horde is from Thrall's. She advocated for peaceful solutions to avoid conflict and war. She saw war and death tear apart her homelands, she was a child of an Admiral and a child of war, she knew its true horrors. Garrosh has never known real war, he's seen skirmishes, but he lived and hid in Nagrand in his childhood.
Garrosh is a bad kid who got a hold of something that he should have never had, for all of the wrong reasons. Thrall gave him the Horde for things he hoped would happen rather than things that were already there.
Jaina has every reason to lash out at the Horde, no matter who runs it afterwards. The soldiers of the Horde razed her home, soldiers that she did her best in the past to save. She is the most powerful mage in Azeroth, she stood toe to toe with the Lich King Arthas Menethil, and survived. No one else could pull off that feat, even the leaders of the Burning Legion were afraid to attempt such an action, Illidan nearly lost his life to just Arthas Menethil the Death Knight. With the location of Theramore she could have wiped Orgrimmar off the face of Azeroth, especially with her adept command of water and ice magic. Toss in the fact that she can teleport into Orgrimmar at will, and even create portals, that in and of itself should speak to her command of the arcane. All of the mages of the Horde that live in Orgrimmar have nothing on her, they don't even know that it's happening until after she's already locked the portal. The seat of power of the Horde up till now has been unknowingly at the mercy and survived on the good will of Jaina Proudmore. Blizzard will hopefully properly portray the wrath she'll be unleashing over the betrayal and unforgivable acts of aggression against her city, people and self.

The point being that there is nothing...absolutely nothing...in game or lore to suggest any major change in relations beyond this. Thrall didn't want war and Varian, as you put it, appears to have calmed down. His act of war does not appear to have led to a state of war. Raised tension, ended cooperation? Yes. More?

EJL

It led to a point of direct battle between Horde and Alliance forces in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown, with Tirion forcing a truce and a further treaty, which Shattering indicates. I mean, Broken Front? The Argent Crusaders telling that the Alliance and the Horde are dumb for fighting each other right at Arthas' footsteps?

What people forget is that there was a war between WotLK and Cataclysm, the War Against the Nightmare.

It led to a point of direct battle between Horde and Alliance forces in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown, with Tirion forcing a truce and a further treaty, which Shattering indicates. I mean, Broken Front? The Argent Crusaders telling that the Alliance and the Horde are dumb for fighting each other right at Arthas' footsteps?

What people forget is that there was a war between WotLK and Cataclysm, the War Against the Nightmare.

Funny. I don't recall Tirion ever being mentioned in the Shattering, especially in regards to the treaty.

STRESS
The confusion caused when one's mind
overrides the body's basic
desire to choke the living shit out of
some jerk who desperately needs it

Actually no.Check the Press Conference one thousand times if you want. The only thing Metzen stated is that one side will commit terrible crimes which will lead to the Siege of Orgrimmar by the Alliance and what's left from the sane Horde. Please don't make imaginary assumptions.

Agreed. I was just looking for that quote too, couldn't find it anywhere.

It led to a point of direct battle between Horde and Alliance forces in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown

Fights which would have taken place anyway.

I mean, Broken Front? The Argent Crusaders telling that the Alliance and the Horde are dumb for fighting each other right at Arthas' footsteps?

Just as they were dumb for fighting over vantage towers in the EPL. Or for getting dust in Silithus. Fighnting to keep open/close supply routes in Arathi Basin.

Fighting in and of itself has never been a sign of a state of war. You can have one with out the other. And there is literally nothing in game or in lore to tie in any event to a state of war. Nothing. Not one thing. Varian committed an act of war....did Thrall pick up his challenge? Did Varian "calm down"? You see the fighting in ICC and GH as proof of war. Fine. I look and I see business as usual. I see nothing there that doesn't happen elsewhere. Worse, I don't see anyone using the excuse of "war" to justify their actions. The Broken Front occurred because the commander would rather see the Horde victorious over the Scourge, or noone and couldn't bear the thought the Alliance were doing better. The Grizzly Hills occurred because both sides needed resources. Without the excuse of coioperation to keep them in check, the usual inclination to fight reasserted itself.

Funny. I don't recall Tirion ever being mentioned in the Shattering, especially in regards to the treaty.

Sorry, I forgot a comma there. The treaty has nothing to do with Tirion.

---------- Post added 2012-06-12 at 08:51 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Talen

Fights which would have taken place anyway.

We don't know that, especially when the leadership would be different if the Wrathgate didn't happened the way it happened.

Originally Posted by Talen

Just as they were dumb for fighting over vantage towers in the EPL. Or for getting dust in Silithus. Fighnting to keep open/close supply routes in Arathi Basin.

Fighting in and of itself has never been a sign of a state of war. You can have one with out the other. And there is literally nothing in game or in lore to tie in any event to a state of war. Nothing. Not one thing. Varian committed an act of war....did Thrall pick up his challenge? Did Varian "calm down"? You see the fighting in ICC and GH as proof of war. Fine. I look and I see business as usual. I see nothing there that doesn't happen elsewhere. Worse, I don't see anyone using the excuse of "war" to justify their actions. The Broken Front occurred because the commander would rather see the Horde victorious over the Scourge, or noone and couldn't bear the thought the Alliance were doing better. The Grizzly Hills occurred because both sides needed resources. Without the excuse of coioperation to keep them in check, the usual inclination to fight reasserted itself.

EJL

It still doesn't change that after Wrathgate and Undercity, the Alliance and Horde fight each other on every field they are present in Northrend. There is a clear "cause-effect" there, supported by the quests and logs, like the one Zaelsino posted.

Problem is, a hefty chunk of the playerbase wants a concrete reason for the PvP to be validated through proper lore. I mean, you saw how people got all mad about there barely being any faction conflict during Wotlk. They like it when they have a lore supported reason to gank everyone they see.

It's not optimal story wise, but it encourages the PvP in a lot of ways. "You're at war, so don't hold back when you're facing other players." (Of course, not all people are so easily manipulated this way, but we're all affected by the way Blizzard takes the story of this game)

It's a very simple storyline, but in a game which centers around faction conflict, you don't always need a complex storyline which steers away from the conflict.

No one cares about lore.

Originally Posted by Symby

so if you see them making a class change a buff or a nerf that means they know what they are doing, they have skilled emplyees that are specially trained for such things(ppl that are balancing the game mechanics)!

Until they kill the viability of your spec/class in PVE and PVP for nearly an entire expansion. But I guess that doesn't count because it makes your Gods look bad, am I right?.

Jaina has every reason to lash out at the Horde, no matter who runs it afterwards. The soldiers of the Horde razed her home, soldiers that she did her best in the past to save. She is the most powerful mage in Azeroth, she stood toe to toe with the Lich King Arthas Menethil, and survived. No one else could pull off that feat, even the leaders of the Burning Legion were afraid to attempt such an action, Illidan nearly lost his life to just Arthas Menethil the Death Knight. With the location of Theramore she could have wiped Orgrimmar off the face of Azeroth, especially with her adept command of water and ice magic. Toss in the fact that she can teleport into Orgrimmar at will, and even create portals, that in and of itself should speak to her command of the arcane. All of the mages of the Horde that live in Orgrimmar have nothing on her, they don't even know that it's happening until after she's already locked the portal. The seat of power of the Horde up till now has been unknowingly at the mercy and survived on the good will of Jaina Proudmore. Blizzard will hopefully properly portray the wrath she'll be unleashing over the betrayal and unforgivable acts of aggression against her city, people and self.

Theramore invaded Horde territory first. She has little right to be so angry. Second she wouldn't be able to wipe out Orgrimmar. The Horde has gained a sizeable navy to counter Theramore and she wouldn't be able to control the ocean if that's what you're getting at. Third I'm pretty sure Aethas can mass teleport as well. They don't let just anyone join the Six, a group of the most powerful mages made to rule the capital of mortal magic users. Lastly the part where you said no one else could stand toe to toe with the Lich King and survive, Sylvanas did.

May I remind you Admiral which you have the same name as the admiral of Kul Tiras that half of the Fleet of Kul Tiras alone is all the fleet that the Horde have so don't overestimate the Horde fleet. Second she has the Focusing Iris on her possesion the artifact that can control magic. I am sure she can obliterate Orgrimmar if she wanted. Aethas is a part of the Kirin Tor a neutral faction. He cannot interfere without provoking the Kirin Tor and he is just only one. Now about Sylvannas it was game mechanics that she survived from Arthas as she is no mage not to mention that she of course could have died if were not for the players.