Want something shiny and still handmade, yet not too shabby in the weight department relative to the material and Italian made? Cinelli XCR(then again, most Steel or Titanium frames are handmade anyway)

... but, really, why not do some digging and find another frame builder that's Italian (since that's your criteria) ?Surely there are more than two frame builders in Italy. Why limit yourself?

Just throwing some other options onto the table. Everything else so far has been a bit of a chorus-debate to be honest.

...I'm not disagreeing that Italian bikes are nice, and for the most part, tend to be quality products.

That said, ticou you just proved a bit of winky's point, no? Actually you kind of prove that by continually posting threads where you trash other non-Italian brands. I respect your preferences, as we each have our own, but is it necessary to make threads and posts with cutting remarks against other brands or products simply because you prefer a competing brand?

800 year history? Really? A bit off there, no?Italy was formed in 1861. That's 152 years of "unification". Sure, you can then claim that the soul was still there in the small feudal states prior to the unification...But wait! The Bicycle has only existed for a bit longer than that, first created in concept by a German and introduced to the public in 1817. You can claim Leonardo Da Vinci's students making notes and drawings - but it was never made. So... doesn't count. I also drew a time machine once. The first 'triangle' shaped frame with the rear wheel being powered by a mechanism came from England. The concept of the drivetrain came from Kirkpatrick Macmillan... that's Scotland. Not Italy. Actually, the first frame design that most race frames we use now are based off of came from England. Harry John Lawson. Look him up.

... Campagnolo comes up with the quick release, that's undeniably been a HUGE thing for many of us (no, not being sarcastic)... but it didn't really affect the overall world of the bicycle in the same way as pedals or handlebars, or even the frame. Afterall: many commuter bikes and track bikes don't use QR skewers and have no plans to switch either.

First steel frame? EnglandFirst aluminum frame? United States (St. Louis, specifically)... or France, 1896, depending on the reference of how the aluminum frame was produced.First carbon frame? United States - Exxon Graftek, then Kestrel for an actual production bike a few years later.

Again though: Italian bikes tend to be pretty great, quality products. Just like bikes from other countries. There is a prestige with Italian bikes and components. That's great. More power to people who love that and seek that prestige... but it does not usurp other people's interests.

We can discuss a lot of other things that one country claims to have "as their own" in another thread, but here's a hint: global influence goes far deeper than you can imagine, and there's an equal amount of "thanks for the idea!" or "thanks for taking the knowledge a step further" from multiple cultures, continents and peoples. Let's not be blind about global history, please.

OP: there are probably a lot of really great frame builders in Italy - hopefully you find one that you really love! Post it up in the forum no matter which one you end up with, I'm sure many of us will enjoy seeing it!

The Italians do have soul though - sadly something totally lacking in much of the new world product foisted upon weight weenies every year.

As for me, I'd go for the Pegoretti simply because Dario's outlook on life is refreshing and the paint jobs outstanding. The Passonis I have seen have always impressed me hugely - the weld quality is superb.

Italian bicycles are not better or worst than others, but...The "Ladri di biciclette" (Bicycle Thieves) is an italian movie. And that's for a reason. The greatest cycling races are taking place in France, Italy and Belgium. That's for a reason as well. Bicycle is a symbol for those countries and part of their economic, social and cultural history.Some people (including me) are moved by those facts, others don't.

I feel I've been more than equal with other countries goods. I'd love a carbon, but I'm just too heavy,and I was nice about the Ridley Noah. It was the 1200's when the land mass called Italy created modern art, and the 1400's when the first draft of a bike was drawn. They pull off stuff no one has thought of before since then.

So,I like German tires, Brit 953 steel, and Shimano is perfectly capable in it's top end. I will never criticize a super lightweight carbon chain ring etc, and I love looking at the pictures,plus I often look at lightweight bike and wheel vid's on Youtube.I have never hijacked a super l/weight link either. I would love a s/l/weight bike!

It would be wrong to say the soul of cycling is just Campag. Lot's of stuff has soul too. I long for the level playing field graphene may one day promise.

Prendrefeu, thanks for the very informative post. I learned a lot. Personally, I think the bicycle freewheel is one of the most important inventions. Did a quick search, and a person named William Van Anden invented it in 1869.

...I'm not disagreeing that Italian bikes are nice, and for the most part, tend to be quality products.

That said, ticou you just proved a bit of winky's point, no? Actually you kind of prove that by continually posting threads where you trash other non-Italian brands. I respect your preferences, as we each have our own, but is it necessary to make threads and posts with cutting remarks against other brands or products simply because you prefer a competing brand?

800 year history? Really? A bit off there, no?Italy was formed in 1861. That's 152 years of "unification". Sure, you can then claim that the soul was still there in the small feudal states prior to the unification...But wait! The Bicycle has only existed for a bit longer than that, first created in concept by a German and introduced to the public in 1817. You can claim Leonardo Da Vinci's students making notes and drawings - but it was never made. So... doesn't count. I also drew a time machine once. The first 'triangle' shaped frame with the rear wheel being powered by a mechanism came from England. The concept of the drivetrain came from Kirkpatrick Macmillan... that's Scotland. Not Italy. Actually, the first frame design that most race frames we use now are based off of came from England. Harry John Lawson. Look him up.

... Campagnolo comes up with the quick release, that's undeniably been a HUGE thing for many of us (no, not being sarcastic)... but it didn't really affect the overall world of the bicycle in the same way as pedals or handlebars, or even the frame. Afterall: many commuter bikes and track bikes don't use QR skewers and have no plans to switch either.

First steel frame? EnglandFirst aluminum frame? United States (St. Louis, specifically)... or France, 1896, depending on the reference of how the aluminum frame was produced.First carbon frame? United States - Exxon Graftek, then Kestrel for an actual production bike a few years later.

Actually, you want an aero bike? You think Great Britain's concepts for aero used in their Olympic frames were innovative?No, not really: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2008/no ... cNeece.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <- That's the first ever aluminum bike... from St. Louis, United States.

Again though: Italian bikes tend to be pretty great, quality products. Just like bikes from other countries. There is a prestige with Italian bikes and components. That's great. More power to people who love that and seek that prestige... but it does not usurp other people's interests.

We can discuss a lot of other things that one country claims to have "as their own" in another thread, but here's a hint: global influence goes far deeper than you can imagine, and there's an equal amount of "thanks for the idea!" or "thanks for taking the knowledge a step further" from multiple cultures, continents and peoples. Let's not be blind about global history, please.

OP: there are probably a lot of really great frame builders in Italy - hopefully you find one that you really love! Post it up in the forum no matter which one you end up with, I'm sure many of us will enjoy seeing it!

dear prefendreu, i think you just didn't get the most important part, or you don't want to get it...

When someone is willing to pay a few thousand euros for this kind of frame, it's not for the frame performance, as any 400€ chinesa frame will be better, it's because of that something else. I wouldn't mind paying those few thousand euros if that something else is italian. Now if that something else is english... I wont even pay one single cent. No matter what.

that something else is maaaaany many things... the culture, the people, the weather, the passion. Passion is not historically dated, can't be measured, fortunately and can't be debated and argued. Tifosis, but not hulligan. Long life to the tifossi, and *f##k* the hulligans. face the reality Pendrefeu.

btw, cinelli just became hipster crap, and this is not LA. No mash, no Rapha no San Francisco crap coffe cyclists, hipsters trendy new crap.

De rosa or pegoretti, or something better, but please, not something worse.

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