Well guys, that's it. I'm stunned. Like many other games this month, we played well enough to win, but we didn't. For me a pivotal moment came late when we had Ells at third and Pedey at first, and we couldn't score. Big Papi's attitude walking back to the bench told me he KNEW that was the moment where he or someone was supposed to step up. Too many runners with no timely hits.

Until the last two nights I have not subscribed to Harness's views that the pitching coach was part of the problem, but the last two nights have me considering. Listening to the announcers "Well, he's thrown 14 fastballs in a row, and you can't do that with professional hitters," or just the fact there was no one up in the bullpen with Lester obviously hanging by a string in the most important game of the year, just a general non spontaneous approach to what was happening on the mound--or on the field.

I guess we should all reflect a bit. But for me not enough guys on this team think they can win regardless of circumstances or act like winners. In 2007 everyone knew they were going to win. Where that attitude comes from I would like to discuss here. From above? From fellow players?

One final thing. I know some posters here generally don't like the bunt. With this team we don't need it often, but it should be in the arsenal for special situations, games. Ells on 3rd and Pedey on 1st in a low run game that means the year with little hitting occurring--wouldn't that have been a spot? Maybe unfairly, but in the light of what ultimately happened?

Get a major league catcher. Realize Bard is fast, but not a closer. Bite the bullet on the $80M Crawford mistake, and make him a pinch-runner, utility outfielder. The man can't hit and he's the last guy you want to put in late for defense. Find a way to dump Lackey: it's official, he can't win and he has a bad attitude. Rethink Papi - he can't run and is double play bait, can't play a defensive position and his hitting isn't going to get better.

The RS Team ERA in September was 7.26; that was the highest in the team's history for any month, and we're talking about 7000 months. Them going down before the season ended was like putting them out of their misery. This is what I think went wrong, in no particular order.

1. The Crawford Signing - It was knee jerk, unecessary, and for what his contract spells out, he was terrible, most surprisingly, in the field and on the bases, with an OBP under .300. He also may not have the constitution to play in Boston.

2. Reading their press clippings - always a bad idea; they only seemed to focus when they were playing the big, bad Yankees, otherwise it was often an overconfident mail-in; you would never see this from a Bellichick Patriots or Lombardi Packer team. They also may have been not as motivated in the conditioning dept, and may have had a few Mantle partier types (Of course, like Babe, to some degree he got away with it).

3. The Manager - I always thought Terry was among the best Mgrs in the game;I still think he's a great tactician (But fans want perfection), but this yr he seemed to convey a country club atmosphere with his veterans, ala Tom Yawkey.

4. The Pitching Coach - He's so gone it's not even funny

5. Youkilis is now a man without a position - He can't play 3rd anymore, and it's not healthy for him. This was a slight negative to the AGon acquisition. AGon playing RF against the NL was not so far fetced afterall; IMO he would be a good, albeit slow OFer, like Piniella or Stargell was, and in LF. Move Crawford to RF where he can use his speed; it's wasted in LF. Combining his speed with his bad yr defensively and the small acreage there, I would say even Greenwell was better.

6. The Bard mystery - Somehow, his mechanics went astray, see the Pitching Coach.

On Crawford's potential catch, it looked to me like maybe he could have made that play. Oh well. It just sums up the year.

It was the kind of fate so many of us grew up with. We can almost wax nostalgic after this month's collapse.

I've gotta say that we probably need to try to bring Papelbon back nonetheless. He was a stud all year and Bard gives no indicaion of being ready, and I've never thought he was a closer mentally. Papelbon most certainly is.

Pretty bad game by Lavarnway offensively but I have faith that he is for real. I don't completely ubderstand batting him 5th though. It's hindsight but that option didn't really work out did it. It looks like Baltimore doubled down on the pressure on him by intentionally walking Agon so much.

In all honesty, Baltimore probably did do us a favor. We just didn't have the pitching at yearend to compete in the playoffs. There is no indication that we were going anywhere.

So much for Ellsbury as MVP. We now have big problems going into next year.

1) Someone needs to get Crawford to calm down and be more patient at the plate.

2) Buchholz may need to emerge as our #1 in order for this team to truly be championship level. He has the best stuff on the staff, and his innings were down so he should come back strong next year. Beckett and Lester were solid overall but it sure would help if someone became truly dominant.

3) I vote for Lavarnway in the starting lineup somewhere. Probably at DH / Reserve catcher. I think he will be an asset.

4) The available free agent talent is just not strong enough to really help us that much, and it will be uber expensive. We probably take the money saved from losing Drew and others and try to make a run at Wilson, Reyes or Fielder but none of those options are ideal. My vote would be Wilson but not at over $100 mil. Signing expensive FA is so risky, and it sometimes ends up as a boat anchor.

Sometimes, you just have to wait. A position none of us like being in. What if each FA option looks like they are crawford level expensive? It has gotten out of control and I'm not sure I would play at that level again any time soon.

We all know they probably keep signing FA talent but it will be difficult to restart the juggernaut without finding a way to sign top pitching talent. I would think they make a run at Wilson.

In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : I don't see a player with less than 40 M.L. AB's as a major factor going anywhere. He's a prospect. Period. A prospect with good minor league numbers. So is Brandon Moss. The Pirates thought of him in the same light. Otherwise, they cut Bay loose in a different deal. Moss has tanked in the majors. Chris Carter put up solid numbers in the minors. That's where he lives. You liked Rizzo. He was exposed in no time...so far. You saw Nava as a 4th outfielder. He may never see another M. L. pitch. My point is, minor league production is just that. How it transfers to the Majors depends on skill-level and mental toughness. Lavernway has showed me more behind the plate than I expected. But his swing is big and could easily be exposed. He's a mistakes hitter at this point in the Big Show. On Reddick, I agree with you there. I liked him since '09 and believe he has a potentially high ceiling. He has shown enough this year to keep the FO from spending more on this outfield. Giving up on him in a panic move could prove to be costly. Re-signing Papi is a major factor going forward, as his production will be very difficult to replace.Posted by harness

What to do about Ortiz is maybe the biggest issue of the off season and Lavarnway is a big factor in that decision. No one is saying Lavarnway is even definitely on the team but what to do about him is a big factor. To me, I roll the dice on that one.

I wouldn't even come close to writing off Rizzo, who just turned 22 with a year of great performance in AAA ball behind him. It is not unusual for a player to have trouble adjusting to the majors, especially when he is a power hitter in Petco.

For the record, I liked the Moss trade to Pittsburgh. I didn't have him penciled in at any mlb slot. Like Nava, he was a potential 4th or 5th OF.

I don't think Lavarnway has a big swing and I don't think he is primarily a mistakes hitter. He has consistently walked a lot and his pitch selection has been excellent overall, in the minors. He looks like the best bat we have developed since Ellsbury. I "project" that he becomes a solid mlb player and maybe even an all star at catcher. Just my opinion.

Burrito, you just gained a ton of respect from me. Posted by moonslav59

How so? O the racist thing. I do like reading Softlaw's posts normally but sometimes when you see someone go too far you have to say something. Moon you are always above the fray and that makes you an ideal poster, it is normally why unless I have something solid to ad I do not enter this thread out of oure respect for you (and fivekatz). In fact I think if you pay attention you will see that 75% of the common posters here avoid this thread all together. Seldom does one enter just to taunt and try to diminish the thread. You guys all love your stats, and I disagree with that love. However there's plenty of other threads for me to go if I want to just blab.

And looks like I spoke far too soon. I turned off the Tampa game and went to the gym when it was 7-0.... wow o wow.

I must say that if anyone had earned a ton of respect its Tampa. I never liked that team from its very incarnation but I will root for them much like I did San Fran before to go all the way. Detroit falls into second for me in terms of wishing them well... Philly is Philly and I don't care about them but I do respect Roy Halliday, Texas-St.Louis-Arizona- and especially New York are not receiving any love from BurritoT.

Well guys, that's it. I'm stunned. Like many other games this month, we played well enough to win, but we didn't. For me a pivotal moment came late when we had Ells at third and Pedey at first, and we couldn't score. Big Papi's attitude walking back to the bench told me he KNEW that was the moment where he or someone was supposed to step up. Too many runners with no timely hits. Until the last two nights I have not subscribed to Harness's views that the pitching coach was part of the problem, but the last two nights have me considering. Listening to the announcers "Well, he's thrown 14 fastballs in a row, and you can't do that with professional hitters," or just the fact there was no one up in the bullpen with Lester obviously hanging by a string in the most important game of the year, just a general non spontaneous approach to what was happening on the mound--or on the field. I guess we should all reflect a bit. But for me not enough guys on this team think they can win regardless of circumstances or act like winners. In 2007 everyone knew they were going to win. Where that attitude comes from I would like to discuss here. From above? From fellow players? One final thing. I know some posters here generally don't like the bunt. With this team we don't need it often, but it should be in the arsenal for special situations, games. Ells on 3rd and Pedey on 1st in a low run game that means the year with little hitting occurring--wouldn't that have been a spot? Maybe unfairly, but in the light of what ultimately happened? Posted by Critter23

That pretty much sizes it up, Crit. Stunned. The chances of this happening a month ago were nil...as nil as seeing Tampa down 7-0 and win 8-7 in a late comeback.From the perspective of a seasoned horse player, we were a nag that lost by a nose.

Now I'll throw you a curve. While most gamblers will look at a race lost by a nose and say "Geez! Lousy FKN luck!". I don't see it that way. I'm of the belief that if that race were run again, that unlucky horse would find a different way to lose by the same margin. I'll cite UR allusion to Paps throwing nothing but heat as an example.

The pressure of the situation last night kept Paps from trusting his secondary pitches. He was pitching afraid to cough it up. As a result, he threw too many pitches, and it caught up to him tonight. Now ya know why Tito carefully watches his pitcher's workload.

So, who's to blame? Lavernway? No. Because Paps was calling his own game. That was clearly apparent with the long stares (his way of shaking off signs) and frequent meetings. Was it on the pitching coach/MGR? Why didn't someone come out and say "Man. You're not pitching. You are throwing a predictable arsenal".IMO, Tito's approach is to leave it to Paps or to Young in that they have been there before. This hands-off approach may prove to be his exit out of Boston.

At the same time, a control freak could make things worse. If Tito is Theo's mouth piece, and Young follows suit, then the issue is in the FO. If Young is not cutting it with the pitchers (and I strongly believe he is responsible for much of the erratic form we have witnessed this month - and all year for many pitchers), then it's on his bosses to recognize it. If they can't, then it's on Henry and Co. to realize that.

In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : What to do about Ortiz is maybe the biggest issue of the off season and Lavarnway is a big factor in that decision. No one is saying Lavarnway is even definitely on the team but what to do about him is a big factor. To me, I roll the dice on that one. I wouldn't even come close to writing off Rizzo, who just turned 22 with a year of great performance in AAA ball behind him. It is not unusual for a player to have trouble adjusting to the majors, especially when he is a power hitter in Petco. For the record, I liked the Moss trade to Pittsburgh. I didn't have him penciled in at any mlb slot. Like Nava, he was a potential 4th or 5th OF. I don't think Lavarnway has a big swing and I don't think he is primarily a mistakes hitter. He has consistently walked a lot and his pitch selection has been excellent overall, in the minors. He looks like the best bat we have developed since Ellsbury. I "project" that he becomes a solid mlb player and maybe even an all star at catcher. Just my opinion.Posted by Boomerangsdotcom

I don't see Lavernway factoring into FO thinking on Papi. Not one bit. They will not put it on a raw rookie to DH and replace Papi's production. If push comes to shove, they will find another way to compensate it, likely outside the organization. But I think Papi will be back.

I'm not writing off Rizzo anymore than you are writing off Navarro in that either could be a fine player. Obvioulsy, Rizzo has more minor league pedigree. Nor am I saying Lavernway will remain a mistake's hitter. That's how I currently perceive him. I see a promising prospect who has a swing that will be exposed. He will have to make constant adjustments like any other M. L. player. He will also have to deal with the mental/physical grind of catching. That takes a huge toll.

Bard is not ready but the question now bares to be asked: Is it worth paying top dollar to Paplebon when its obvious that no closer outside of Rivera is a guaranteed lock in the most important game of the season?

My opinion is that we try to bring an established closer in for 2012 for less money and no more than 2 years - Bard continues to pitch the 8th until he is more able to take on the 9th.

I like Paplebon, I won't really hold this game against him because the team has itslef to blame for the last 30 games - theres plenty of blame to go around. However I say let him walk.... no worries.

p.s harness I am now more confident to win the bet, which two weeks would you least like to have off next year?

Bard is not ready but the question now bares to be asked: Is it worth paying top dollar to Paplebon when its obvious that no closer outside of Rivera is a guaranteed lock in the most important game of the season? My opinion is that we try to bring an established closer in for 2012 for less money and no more than 2 years - Bard continues to pitch the 8th until he is more able to take on the 9th. I like Paplebon, I won't really hold this game against him because the team has itslef to blame for the last 30 games - theres plenty of blame to go around. However I say let him walk.... no worries. p.s harness I am now more confident to win the bet, which two weeks would you least like to have off next year? side question: What about Lars? Is he a potential DH?Posted by BurritoT

Until tonight's game, the RS were 77-0 leading after 8; and you want Papebon to WALK? Nobody's perfect; Rivera's proved that.

Bard is not ready but the question now bares to be asked: Is it worth paying top dollar to Paplebon when its obvious that no closer outside of Rivera is a guaranteed lock in the most important game of the season? My opinion is that we try to bring an established closer in for 2012 for less money and no more than 2 years - Bard continues to pitch the 8th until he is more able to take on the 9th. I like Paplebon, I won't really hold this game against him because the team has itslef to blame for the last 30 games - theres plenty of blame to go around. However I say let him walk.... no worries. p.s harness I am now more confident to win the bet, which two weeks would you least like to have off next year? side question: What about Lars? Is he a potential DH?Posted by BurritoT

And I still say two of the three will return.I'm confident enough to up the anti.

In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : Until tonight's game, the RS were 77-0 leading after 8 ; and you want Papebon to WALK? Nobody's perfect; Rivera's proved that.Posted by nhsteven

I said I don't blame him for tonight, and mentioned that we should not pay top dollar for a closer thats all. It has nothing to do with how good he is it has everything to do with not having a payroll as gross as your team.

This team needs to begin 2012 with Iglesias at short, Kalish or Reddick in right or left, and Lavarway at DH/CA.... we should not get a big expensive name on a long term contract until we see how things are in July. Short term big names are welcomed of course.

In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : And I still say two of the three will return. I'm confident enough to up the anti. BTW: Wanna take any bets on cardboard Curt Young returning?Posted by harness

Peter Gammons rolled out an interesting stat yesterday: The RS Team ERA in September was 7.26; that was the highest in the team's history for any month, and we're talking about 7000 months. Them going down before the season ended was like putting them out of their misery. This is what I think went wrong, in no particular order. 1. The Crawford Signing - It was knee jerk, unecessary, and for what his contract spells out, he was terrible, most surprisingly, in the field and on the bases, with an OBP under .300. He also may not have the constitution to play in Boston. 2. Reading their press clippings - always a bad idea; they only seemed to focus when they were playing the big, bad Yankees, otherwise it was often an overconfident mail-in; you would never see this from a Bellichick Patriots or Lombardi Packer team. They also may have been not as motivated in the conditioning dept, and may have had a few Mantle partier types (Of course, like Babe, to some degree he got away with it). 3. The Manager - I always thought Terry was among the best Mgrs in the game;I still think he's a great tactician (But fans want perfection), but this yr he seemed to convey a country club atmosphere with his veterans, ala Tom Yawkey. 4. The Pitching Coach - He's so gone it's not even funny 5. Youkilis is now a man without a position - He can't play 3rd anymore, and it's not healthy for him. This was a slight negative to the AGon acquisition. AGon playing RF against the NL was not so far fetced afterall; IMO he would be a good, albeit slow OFer, like Piniella or Stargell was, and in LF. Move Crawford to RF where he can use his speed; it's wasted in LF. Combining his speed with his bad yr defensively and the small acreage there, I would say even Greenwell was better. 6. The Bard mystery - Somehow, his mechanics went astray, see the Pitching Coach. 7. Lackey - see Crawford, but for different reasons.Posted by nhsteven

If you mean this, yes.

I do think Youk is still gonna handle 3rd, but his back-up will be more available and better with the leather. They really can't DH Youk to replace Papi and then expect to replace Youk's numbers with a lesser hitting 3rd baseman.

I know posters want to clean house, but the fact will emerge that there's isn't as much maneuverability as some might think.

The Red Sox have awesome talent, and I really think Crawford will have a bounceback year in 2012. Lavarnway looks like he might live up to the hype and, if he does, watch out. If the Red Sox can pick up two strong starters next year, I think they could easily be favored again to win it all. This was a brutal year if you are a Bosox fan, but they still have a strong core.....

Warning: This post was created by a Yankee fan, and may be intended to cause irreparable emotional and psychological harm to any Red Sox fan who might read it.

In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : If you mean this, yes. I do think Youk is still gonna handle 3rd, but his back-up will be more available and better with the leather. They really can't DH Youk to replace Papi and then expectto replace Youk'snumbers with a lesser hitting 3rd baseman. I know posters want to clean house, but the fact will emerge that there's isn't as much maneuverability as some might think.Posted by harness

Part of the Pitching Coach's bad prospects going forward, is, IMO, because there needs to be scapegoats, i.e, heads need to roll; not that he deserves to stay, of course. It is quite possible a Dave Duncan or a Rick Peterson could have avoided some of those injuries via a better handle on each pitcher's mechanics, and could have helped Lackey some too - assuming he's not too pig-headed to listen; (if Lackey was on my team, and I was the Mgr, he would have been in my office after showing me up several times, lastly in a game he clearly was losing a handle on, for starters, NPI; and his personal situation doesn't sound very impressive either; sigh, he's laughing all the way to the bank)