News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", New Age Movement, Communitarianism, "planetary humanism," "global governance," European Union, Javier Solana, Jeremy Rifkin, "New Age Politics," law in the USA, combined with life in general -- sometimes humorous, sometimes not!

Saturday, March 18, 2006

Javier Solana reportedly would like Germany to do that even better than Germany itself! – What next?

Well, it looks as if Javier Solana has his hands full for awhile. He travels on Sunday to the Congo. He is seeking troop donations from EU countries. Germany, headed by a lady who holds the same academic degree as does Dr. Solana, Angela Merkel, who has a Ph.D. in physics, has announced it would like to lead the way. Elections are coming up in the Congo. Peacekeepers would probably appear helpful by now. Maybe there might be a greater spirit of reconciliation among the Congolese if they read the writings of those advising their would-be European protectors. If I were in their position, I would certain read Robert Cooper’s works, potentially as they reminisce fondly about colonialism and control. Then I would study the history of colonialism (including but not limited to Germany and even more importantly Belgium) and go hmmmm. Well, since all of the EU’s motives (or at least those of its leadership, including but not limited to Dr. Solana) could only be altruistic, not to worry. Or should they? Maybe this is inevitable?

One of Angela Merkel’s top deputies formerly served on Javier Solana’s Council of the European Union cabinet. Christoph Heusgen, by some accounts “plucked” from the cabinet of Javier Solana by Angela Merkel, appears more likely to this observer to have instead been planted in the cabinet of Angela Merkel by Javier Solana.

Heusgen (and probably his boss as well) appears to be working very hard to make Javier Solana’s really big dreams come true. He has advocated for the EU to have a permanent Security Council seat in place of Great Britain, France, and Germany as those three countries had previously hoped. He is making BIG PLANS for Germany’s turn at the presidency of the EU (provided the new constitution doesn’t go into place first). This will happen in 2007 – a year that Javier Solana has concomitant BIG PLANS for the Middle East. That is the year the Neighbourhood (Neighborhood to Americans) Action Plans or 7th Framework Programme is due to go into effect for the “Greater European Neighbourhood” which will under those 7 year programs include the countries with Treaties of Association with the European Union.

And that is not to mention the 2008 year the Europeans hope to tie together various creepily acronymed entities such as GMES (Global Monitoring for Environment and Security), GEOSS (Global Environment and Observation System of Systems). But you can relax. Everybody will be perfectly safe. After all, their planned system will monitor every ship at sea. According to their generously free CD, it can even monitor people out on a walk! Sleep well. Our EU big brothers (and they brag that George Bush helped with the GEOSS project) will monitor our every move. And no doubt, they will come off looking like heroes with their fusion energy project called ITER. That rhymes with bitter. Google it for yourself. They claim they will harness the energy of the stars. Was this what George W. Bush was alluding to when he claimed an energy breakthrough was coming? I am more than a little nervous knowing that Tara Center’s Benjamin Crème (remember him – he heads the group that periodically runs those full page ads claiming “the Christ is now here.”) Per Crème, their “Christ,” (Maitreya to them) will be “the great world teacher. He will achieve a global redistribution of wealth by having countries take inventory of what they have so it can be passed around equally (no doubt more equally to the EU perhaps?). Most interesting, their "Maitreya" will solve world energy problems by a fusion energy process.

While thinking of that, I also reflect on other aspects. About that "global inventory and redistribution". And then I think about Javier Solana’s various “donor conferences” and go “hmmmmmm.” But then again, I am sure I am reading way too much into his very coincidentally named “Section 666” of the Europa Code creating his job and “Recommendation 666” of his ten nation Western Europe Assembly. And just because he has been given the keys to open and shut down Project Galileo at Torrejon – ah, I must really be delusional now. After all, most Americans do not even recognize this invisible man’s name. Couldn’t be anything to it – or could it?

Well, now that I read that our present USA administration is so firmly behind “the European Project” I know that earlier accounts I read that the EU planned to dislodge the USA as a competing superpower in the coming global struggle for control of resources in the 21st century could never be true. After all, both sides of the Atlantic are strictly about peacekeeping? Right? Right??????? Oil and other natural resources never crossed any player’s mind. It’s all about democracy as DNA?

And now Javier Solana seems to be very confidently relying on his very good German friends and a former key loyal employee to lead the charge to Africa. Altruistic? Or back to the goldmines, the rubber trees, the Nigerian oil, and the South African diamonds? Not to mention all that lovely Mideast oil, particularly after Israel is put in its perceived place should it interfere with EU hegemonic aspirations for the region.

And all of this is not to mention the mounting pressures to put UN controls (with strong EU support and maybe even USA backing) in place to curb "protect religion" by making illegal its criticism. Well, I guess that in the New World Order one is allowed to have a religion. One is not, however, allowed to believe it true -- nor tell others it is true. Too bad!

Well, it looks like Javier Solana is getting it smoothly together now. Too bad. I was ready to make my campaign contribution for my favorite cause: Javier Solana for Mayor of Madrid!

I would just like to post and remind everyone that this battle has already been won as far back as the garden when God said to the serpent: Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Connie,Thanks for posting this. I almost called you Thursday night for a chat. It seems no matter how much I tell people what's going on, I always turn out to be paranoid or neurotic for even thinking something like this could happen.

This week, I was on a plane with a kid who just finished his Undergrad degree and was applying for his Graduate degree in political science. He had NEVER heard of Solana, the Barcelona Process, the ENPI or European Neighborhood, the Iraqi or Iranian Oil Bourse's, the San Remo Conference, etc...

And when we started discussing Israel, he could only spout how they had injustly harmed the Palestineans and displaced them. Then proceeded to question HOW I could actually compare today's news to the bible and draw justifiable parallels. All this after telling me he was a rariety, a CHRISTIAN in a liberal major at a liberal college.

Apparently, I'm a KOOK !Thanks for the post. It's encouraging to know you are still out there with the rest of us KOOKS !

Constance I was reading your blog and also herb's it's good reporting as always. This morning I woke up to go to work and heard the news about all the anti-american demonstrations across the world on the third anniversy of the Iraq invasion. We live in trouble some times. It's intresting how much more power solana is getting. After reading the blog I say WOW! Keep up the good work.

Reader here might like to know Connie will be on the Daniel Ott show tonight at 6 pm eastern time. I've never heard the show, but others say it supports New Age thinkers. You might be able to get it on the web athttp://www.theedgeam.com/index.phpNo matter how many times I read her material or listen to interviews, I always learn something new. This time I will try to tape it.

Readers have to check out a story at EUreferendum regarding EU law out of Brussels and how it will affect the organ builders if they are not exempted. Readers here should be asking themselves just where are organs used most these days and why wouldn't an allowance be made for them.

As of Saturday afternoon, E.S.T., USA, it appears that google may be having some server issues. I notice that the format is different and I trust this is temporary. Thanks for the posts -- and the patience. By the way, I just read the latest Lucis Trust, World Goodwill (Lucifer Publishing) newsletter. It seems they are concerned about INFORMATION OVERLOAD from blogging on the internet and have even suggested their people might like to take some internet fasts -- presumably while WSIS (World Society for Information Systems) gets their new and more closed internet worked out! Keep up the good work!

In accordance with the first poster's comment that it is important to remember that HaShem is still on the throne, would like to post information that was first posted on Herb's discussion board for your enjoyment, encouragement, and hopefully, edification:

*****

A strong case can be made for the possibility/probability that the Lord uses signs in the sky to point to Israel:

For instance, in July of 2000, the famous "Solana Decision" occurred (a point will be made following the quote):

**** (QUOTE) *****

Now that I’ve explained a little about these three EU institutions, I can tell you about the Solana Decision. On July 26, 2000, quickly following the French presidency’s decision to use the WEU Assembly for their military, Solana called a meeting of COREPER (committee of permanent representatives of the 15 member states). Strangely, he called this meeting while the European Parliament was in recess. Not only that, but he didn’t inform the national parliaments of the 15 member states about this meeting or any civil organizations.7

At the meeting, Solana put forward a resolution restricting the public’s access to all documents relating to military matters. It was quickly voted on and passed. In other words, from now on any actions by Solana and the Council of Europe regarding Europe's new military wing was going to be hidden behind closed doors.

Not only was the public affected by this decision, but it also left the European Parliament – the only democratic element in the EU’s institutional triangle – completely in the dark. Even more serious, the Solana Decision reversed a commitment made in the Amsterdam Treaty guaranteeing the public’s right to these same documents. Without this guarantee, it’s doubtful if the parliaments of the 15 member states would have ratified the Amsterdam Treaty in the first place.

This clampdown on public access to information became known as the infamous “Solana Decision.” Some journalists even went so far as to call it Solana’s “military coup.”8

http://www.freedominfo.org/case/eustudy/ch6.htm

***** (END QUOTE) *****

What is curious is that in July of 2000 (the same month and year the "Solana Decision" took place) the star Dschubba (Delta Scorpii), which lies in the middle of the head of the constellation Scorpius (which, according to E.W. Bulllinger, is representative of the enemy whose head will eventually be crushed by Yeshua) brightened from magnitude 2.3 to 1.9, a change easily discernible to the naked eye and completely unheard of in the annals of astronomical history as Dschubba was considered a "constant" star, meaning it had never been known to change magnitude:

***** (QUOTE) *****

Two years ago (the article is dated 07/26/02), the familiar head of Scorpius sported a new look as its middle star, Dschubba, suddenly and unexpectedly brightened to magnitude 1.9 from its usual magnitude of 2.3. The change was enough to make Dschubba quite plainly the brightest star in the naked-eye row of Graffias, Dschubba and Pi Scorpii, sometimes known as "The Crown of the Scorpion."

Editor's Note: Dschubba remains bright, and Joe will discuss what's going on with this object in a Spacewatch column on variable stars, due later this summer.

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/scorpion_020726.html

***** (END QUOTE) *****

and,

***** (QUOTE) *****

The star Dschubba, which is the middle star in the row of three that forms the head of Scorpius, has been growing steadily brighter since June 30. The normal magnitude for the star is 2.3, but it has risen to a magnitude of 1.9 from June 30 to July 25th and the brightening may continue according to a Sky and Telescope news release dated July 26, 2000.

http://www.atlbible.org/astronomy/00aug.htm

***** (END OF QUOTE) *****

Did you catch the fact that the "Solana Decision" took place on 07/26/00 and that Dschubba brightened from 2.6 to 1.9 magnitude from 06/30/00 to 07/25/00?

*****

For those who are interested, E.W. Bullinger's book, Witness of the Stars, is available free online at:

Very thought provoking post! What especially caught my attention is the piece where they expect to harness energy from the stars. I recall reading in various writings that the new age would bring forth a new technological breakthrough—the technology of light. Perhaps this has already been built into the Galileo system?

I recall in a classroom a few years back learning Microsoft’s .NET platform. The focus was mainly on object oriented programming. As the instructor spoke, he presented that Mircosoft was careful to make sure that when they created objects, that those objects would not have the ability to become aware of another object’s existence. This immediately interested me. I asked the instructor if, considering Microsoft’s ability to make objects aware of one another, he could foresee the potential creation of what the book of Revelation describes as the Beast. Interestingly, no-one laughed and the discussion was stimulating. Of course, we had different interpretations of Revelation.

Here is link that talks about Microsoft’s smart personal object technology where they discuss omnipresent computers. Disappearing Computers Everywhere—Living in a World of Smart Everyday Objects. http://www.vs.inf.ethz.ch/publ/papers/bohn_emtel_2003.pdf

Considering the technology of light and smart objects, perhaps this is what Revelation refers to where we are told that he had power to give life unto the image of the beast. It looks as though no-one will have opportunity to unplug this thing.

Constance, do you still have CDs on Javiar Solana available? I would like to send an order to your office they are still available.RichInMedford

Anonymous 4:37 - very interesting information. You should know your first posting of the links worked better than the second. Those of us who have been reading here know that if a link is longer than the box, we just use the mouse to follow the link to its end outside of the box. It happens quite often.

Glad to hear the original links work but must confess am unable, at this point, to figure out how as after playing with the mouse to try to "follow" out to the end of the links as you suggested, am unable to do so. (The 2nd post of links was intended as a "fail-safe" alternative, happily unnecessary, according to your post.)

(quote) Do you have links to further material on this belief? (end quote)

Yes, and no. Firstly, would like to comment am a bit uncomfortable with the above statement. Believe HaShem designed the created world as a witness to his truths and glory (see Romans 1:20, Psalm 19, etc.) only, not as a "belief" system in and of itself, which may have a tendency to lead to error and apostasy. However, realize you may not have have intended it that way so please forgive if took "offense" unnecessarily.

That said, would highly recommend E.W. Bullinger's book, Witness of the Stars, the link to which is given above. The biblical astronomy website also has quite a list of resource materials; the website is run by a Mr. Bob Wadsworth; he also has a free monthly email newsletter.

Finally, at the very real risk of going "overboard," am including the following (believe some astronomers have stated that the "exact" year of 2012 for the following event cannot be precisely identified, but that the event could occur a year or two earlier or later.) (The quote is taken from the page of a discussion board which is no longer available.)

*****

It is interesting to consider what happens on Dec. 21, 2012. On this date the winter solstice sun will conjunct (be over) the intersection of the plane of the ecliptic (the plane the planets rotate in) and the galactic equator (the thin band of the milky way galaxy). The thin band of the galaxy is also known as Leviathan the serpent, in Hebrew astronomy, as someone else has mentioned. This conjunction would appear, from articles I have read, to occur over a dark area of the galaxy which appears as the outline of the serpents head. So on Dec. 21, 2012, the sun (son) will be over (crushing) the head of Leviathan (the serpent).

I hope nobody is fooled into thinking the European Parliament has any power, they are just a token representation. It is the Commission and this guy Javier who pull the strings of that body, especially Javier, who seems to have given himself the power.

This is in line with what Satan said to Jesus about him (Satan) being able to give power to whom he will, because as he (Satan) said 'it is mine to give'. Jesus did not contradict him on that.

As I further consider the idea of harnessing energy from the stars, a passage in Revelation continually comes to mind.

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

I used to believe that this was because God did not want to look upon the earth. Perhaps this is the case? Perhaps also to frustrate the efforts of the antichrist? Maybe both.RichInMedford

The EU Parliament is indeed relatively powerless. BUT, the Council of the European Union is certainly not. That is where the real power of the EU lies and it is controlled nearly lock, stock and barrel by Javier Solana. Solana also controls the military body, WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION

Aha...a way to hear the two hour interview after it's over. If you go to http://www.theedgeam.com/index.php you can see that the previous guest, March 11 shows a way to download both hours of the show. The host said that the Cumbey interview can be picked up that way tomorrow, Sunday, March 19. Let's hope so. It's a good way to pass on information to friends.

I'm more than a little uncomfortable with the December 2012 prophecy in view of the fact that New Agers seem to be focusing on the December 2012 date also. Putting 2012 and the word prophecy into the Google search engine brings up a host of New Age connections to this particular date, one of which is http://www.experiencefestival.com/oneness_commitment

There Nostrodamus is referenced as well as the end of the Mayan calendar, all connected with astrological thoughts of the stars.

Here are other links http://www.poleshift2012.com/http://www.lightconnectiononline.com/Archive/jun04_planetary.htm

I just wonder if man rather than God has something planned for this date. There seems to be a lot of people who want us to believe in the importance of this date.

Presumably, the wise men from the east were made aware of the coming of Christ by seeing His star, whatever that meant. It would appear. therefore, that they were watching the heavens, and if they could work out the time of Christ's birth, I can't see why Satan and his company would not have been able to do the same.

Perhaps, the configuration of these planets do mean something, and that Satan and his company will be reading that message also.

This could be why we are seeing all the things spoken about by the prophets starting to come about, and Satanic forces congregating on mass, because Satan knows that his time is short! Praise be to the Lord Jesus, and Bless His Holy Name.

Don't forget, that if Satan could still manage to rid the World of the Jewish race, then he could hope that Christ would not be able to fulfil all the prophecy concerning Israel.

Jesus Himself said of Israel, 'I come in the name of the Father, and me you reject. One day somebody will come in his own name, and him you will accept'.

However, we are also told that although the Jews will accept this person as Messiah, they will also see through him, and eventually reject him. It is then that he turns against them to destroy them, because if he can destroy them, then he is hoping to prevent Christ fulfilling his prophecy towards the Jews.

Hitler had also been on a mission to destroy the Jews from the face of the earth, he had failed, and this had consequently helped bring about the restoration of the nation of Israel. Rather like Satan's plans to put an end to the life of Jesus on the Cross, yet it was really a victory for Jesus.

Satan is still trying to interupt the course of prophesy, and Christians and Jews are high on his agenda! One thing we can be sure of, he wont win this time either, but Christians must realise the battle is going to get much tougher, and we are going to be called to fight on the front line. We need to really pray for strength and protection for ourselves and each other, and pray for Constance, this lady who has been given such discernment. She is a blessing to us all.

I agree with the previous post—this is going to be a battle for souls. We must remember that we already have the sword, we just need to sharpen ourselves over the next few months and make sure we are fully loaded with weaponry.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God’s word tells us that He desires that no-one perish. I firmly believe that He intends to frustrate the efforts of this evil plan so that the saints can effectively inflict damage. Be ready, this battle is going to be fierce!RichInMedford

I am writing in response to the anon at 3:16. I believe the year 2012 or there abouts give or take has serious significance. It is not just one culture that recognizes this period of time. It seems to be almost every part of the world that is coming to conclusion of this time frame. From the science community studying outer space to the earths climate and magnetic field, new agers, the jews finally being rescued to the final period of piece, to Egyptian writings long ago, the mayans writings, etc. Paul writes about a time period that as believers we would absolutely recognize without a doubt. 1 Thessalonians ch.5. Vs.1 starts the process. " But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you". He obviously believes by this point we have the knowledge of what he is talking about, refering to the old testament and Jesus' words in the olivet discourse. Paul goes on in vs. 4 "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief".vs.6 "Therefore let us not sleep as others do, but let us watch and be sober". When you reed 1 Thess. ch.5 look for the key words refering to the different groups of people, ex. them,you,brethren,they,those,us etc. These words go in to decribe who knows what and what we are to do. Its exciting when looking at it from this perspective. But back to the year 2012. We know that the tribulation is 7 years. I look at the year 2007 with more significance with all the events that pile up afterwards. So the year 2012 seems like a projected variable, but in the ball park. I am inspired by Luke 21:28 Jesus said " now when these things BEGIN to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near". but also a stearn warning Luke 21:35-36, "For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth". 36 " Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man". I'm looking up!!!

Sorry. I don't take warnings from occult sources. If something happens you can believe there will be a rash of stories saying how New Age thinking is the true way to believe because their prophecies came true. Remember New Age is one world religion and one world government, one meant to support the other. Please do consider that these occult sources that have even infiltrated the monotheistic churches and synagogues may be funded by the one world government pushers who do have the money to throw around.

If one hundred people put their shoes on and started to research what might be in the government works for 2012, it would help. Sitting around saying "Look how right I am" isn't really of value. Maybe what is needed at this point is someone who can teach others how to do research on their own. It really isn't that hard. People, God gave you brains as well as a heart.

I personally give no credit to the new age or whatever else is out there other than God. But the one thing is, is that the Bible desribes the basic actions of these people. This is not there choice whether or not prophecy is fulfilled. They don't have a clue. But one thing is for sure. 2 Thes.2:11 desribes them believing a lie. God is the originator of this plan ahead of time. So what if they believe they are filling thier prophecies. It still makes no difference. They are still doing what the Bible describes. Just like idols. They are dumb. Have no authority. If these new age people believe they are filling prophecy, its to bad there filling in on the wrong side. These people do not verify themselves no matter what they do. However what they do does verify the Bible as being even more relevant day by day. So to ignore these comparisons would be throwing away all the signs that the Bible foretold us ahead of time to watch for. Just think... Satan knows what is going to happen ahead of time. He is the author of this new age crap. Does this make him irrelevant to Bible prophecy? We know the answer to that. Now second. I am not sitting around trying to say how right I am. I could give a rats rear end about my reputation whatsoever. Now if that doesnt cut my reputation down what will. I am not in it for me!

child of god, over the last 2,000 years many groups of people have anticipated the end of times with signs. They meant well, but it may have stopped them from taking action in the physical world.

It's a bit presumptious asking God to step into and solve every problem humans are to face. God gave you a brain and he expects you to use it. That's what free will is about. Even if your contribution is small, give it while staying moral.

Child of God, and others, put a few key words into a search engine and tell us what you find. If I can do it, you can also. You and others can help Constance and others see things that they have not come across yet. Like the rest of us, you might be right and you might be wrong, but you will have tried to help others just in case it isn't end times.

I think you are right about us being in the end times, and it is good that people are reminded of this because that is the thing that will make Christians who have been sittng back for so long get up and get going. I think for so long many members of the Christian church have been sitting back and watching the world go by. Many of us seem to have enjoyed being part of the Christian church merely because of the social life to be found there! It has been an easy kind of Christian walk.

We can not afford to just sleepwalk along any more, we need to be getting the message out as we are in the last days and Satan is rolling out his big guns in order to fool all the world if possible.

When I started tracking Dr. Solana on November 22, 1995, there was relatively little available on the web about him. This morning there were "1 - 30 of about 4,670,000 for "Javier Solana." One day last week, it was over 5 million hits. Clearly, he is not going away anytime soon, as I see it.

Constance, there may be several levels of readers of this blog. First there are the really knowledgeable who understand the EU and look to you for more information. It looks as if people at this this level do not post their views. Over this period of time I've seen almost no insiders respond or argue with your views.

There are people who find a middle ground, concerned with you about the New Age movement, both the political and religious parts of New Age.

The third group are people whose sole concern is how your information fits in with their end time beliefs.

Many thanks Constance for your broadcast on The Edge. I found it very interesting, and afterwards I decided to find out about the maitraya, and found the website but did not bother to read too much as I quickly came to the conclusion that it was a kind of slippery snake double talk, and coming from a Christian perspective as I am, it was a load of rubbish. Anyway, I decided to leave my message on his web, and gave the gospel of salvation.

However, while I was doing this I was suddenly overcome by a feeling that some kind of beneficient vibration stuff was being transmitted towards me from this source, and whoever was reading what I was writing was actually pleased that I was writing it, although not moved at all.

It is the same with Javier Solana, each time I have seen this man speaking I am drawn to his charm, as he appears to be so down to earth and somebody you would be inclined to like, trust and put your faith in.

However, I am too long in the tooth to be fooled by all this, and can see what he is really about, but I can see why the Bible says that if it were possible, even the Elect would be fooled.

Combined together these two entities will be an irrisistible force for many, and I would say, even Christians, unless they are well grounded in the faith, and I am sorry to say, that many do not appear to be.

Anyway, let's say that I am getting some kind of idea of what happened when Eve and Adam were seduced. These entities are charmers, but so was Mengala, who used to give the children sweeties before he killed them.

That is why I think God is going to remove the Church so as to protect it from the evil deception which Satan perpetrated on Adam and Eve.

We are not dealing with flesh and blood but with powerful evil entities, but Praise the Lord Jesus, He is Stronger and More Powerful and has already overcome for us.

To the anonymous that talked about three different types of people. Constance put out this stuff about the new age movement long ago to tell the Christian community and the non believing Christian world what's going on in our society and what their plans are. They have infulltrated so many areas. For some Christians they just sat back and scoffed at the infomation that Constance gave us. She also gave us a warning to beware What's happening in America concering the newage movement this is a spiritual war and a political war it plays on all sides. The truth of the endtimes is in the Bible. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ alone. The new age movement is a totally different camp. Iv'e known Constance for over ten years she has always put out good infomation on what's happening across the world and she done a good job

It appears he has had his way with Germany leading the EU troops to the Congo -- this will undoubtedly increase Dr. Solana's already big stock with the UN -- and perhaps his goal of obtaining the Security Council seat in an UN Reform.

I think that rather than place our trust in getting out before persecution -- we should encourage people to trust God no matter how it plays out. He's got the big picture -- we've got the little picture. I fear that if the 70th week of Daniel does (and it may well) open on January 1, 2007 and persecution does begin to open (for many in the world, check out Serbia, their Christians already have!) The danger we face is that Christians who feel they will be whisked out this side of persecution may well lose their faith if they have been taught blind reliance on pre-trib rapture. I would like it to be that way as much as much as anybody, but I cannot shake the plain reading of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 which tells us that two things must precede the gathering together to the Lord:

1. The Apostasy (I have plainly witnessed that in full swing for the past 25 years!);

2. The revealing of the Man of Perdition.

How long after that is a matter that we all see through glass darkly in regards to its true interpretation. I am certainly rooting for all the pre-tribbers to be right, but I am so very fearful that they may be among those (as will be the post-millennials who are convinced by listening to arguments of Rushdoony, Gary North, Chilton, Gary DeMar, et al that we will increase in power and glory until we are in control. Indeed, that may be part of current USA administration delusion. Neither side is prepared in the least for any sort of suffering. Both sides are set up for spiritual disillusionment and falling away from the faith as they are tested. People have lost their lives for their faith in the past -- why do we think the last generation will escape it and we will be in heaven 3 1/2 years before the antichrist is revealed. I believe it is nothing short of Satanic that a false dichotomy has been drawn between dogmatic pre-trib rapturists and post-millennialists. They could all too well be two sides of the very same coin. NO MATTER HOW IT COMES DOWN, TRUST GOD! HE WILL GIVE US THE GRACE TO GO THROUGH IT. IT MAY BE ULTIMATE TEMPTATION -- THE ULTIMATE CHOICE. The "Christian" environmentalist movement is another BIG PROBLEM. They have uncritically adopted New Ager Jeremy Rifkin's New Paradigm and through this vehicle are likely to fall into the New Age trap of earth worship or at least helping to establish the political mechanisms for its establishment. NEITHER TO THE RIGHT HAND NOR TO THE LEFT, BUT STRICTLY IN THE PATHS OF THE LORD.

President Bush is talking about using military might against Iran, while China and Russia are siding with Iran for more talk, which will enable Iran to finish their nukes and Shahab 4 missle warheads, which they've tested.

Israel has elections coming up in a week. Iran has given millions in new money for increased terror against the Israelis.

Now who can't see what is coming? You'd certainly have to be either blind, or biblically naive to miss it.

A very powerful commentary Constance. Whether it's end times or just extremely difficult times, I would think that the standards we are given to live by, whether Christian or Jewish, are a challenge put before us.

I would suggest everyone reading this sharpen their moral swords and take a few swipes against what we are facing now. Take a verbal stand against abortion, or the growing euthanasia movement, or against the growing acceptance of pornography or anything you see that violates a moral stand. If you see moral depravity at the government level, write a letter. If an ecumenical position irritates you, write to someone in a leadership position.

Take a tiny step people, rather than none at all, to defend what you believe in. Today, right now, write a note to somebody.

In Beijing, Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang emphasized that "China and Russia have common views on how to resolve the Iranian nuclear issue."

"Our objectives are to solve the issue in a peaceful way through negotiations," he said, as Chinese President Hu Jintao and Russian President Vladimir Putin held talks in Beijing.

Moscow has offered to process uranium for Iran in an attempt to break a stalemate but Tehran has so far refused.

Russia's objections to the draft statement are many. It wants a provision deleted that mentions "peace and security," fearing it could lead to a resolution that requires mandatory action and could lead to sanctions, China reported.

1 Thessalonians 5:3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Rabbi calls for 'UN of religions'The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger, has called for the creation of a world body with representatives from the major religious groups.

Rabbi Metzger was addressing the International Congress of Imams and Rabbis for Peace in Seville, Spain.

He called for the formation of a "United Nations of religious groups".

The Imam of Gaza, Imad al-Faluji, said politicians lied but religious leaders had a different objective - to work towards a higher good.

The imams and rabbis at this conference, which opened on Sunday, say the world is in crisis and it is time they acted to restore justice, respect and peace.

I've started reading "False Dawn" by Lee Penn as Constance recommended. It is excellent! If you have read "The Hidden Dangers" and would like to fast forward to today, reading this book is an excellent way to do so.

Question to other bloggers: Does anyone know where to obtain a copy of Barbara Marx Hubbard's manuscript "The Revelation, An Alternative to Armageddon"? Does anyone know if her published version of the Revelation contains her channelled interpretation on Revelation 13 that contains the killing passages? I would like to get my hand on this manuscript again or at least a copy of specific pages.RichInMedford

"But we have been travelling fast, ever since we started. ESDP is Europe's response to today's strategic environment. The contours of that environment are by now familiar. It is the panorama of failing states, proliferation and organised crime. Of old-style regional conflicts and fights over scarce resources, combined with new threats such as Avian fluand people-trafficking. Of non-state actors, such as terrorist networks, criminal gangs or Janjaweedstyle militias."Solana in his nice speech at:http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/discours/88870.pdf

Uh-Oh! Prime minister Ahud Olmert has just announced he will divide Jerusalem. Posted on World Net Daily Fri. 3/24 http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49426 I think stuff is about to come to a head.

I find it interesting that one of the big names behind the "Christian" environmental movement happens to be the guy I've been watching with some concern--none other than Rick Warren. I heard his name on NPR a few weeks ago as one of the many Christian evangelists who wrote the Bush administration to push for changes in environmental policy. Oh, this next Fall get ready for the NFL's first purpose-driven football team. Rick Warren bought the New Orlean Saints. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I still questions his motives.

Something creepy about GEOSS and its perpetrators: Notice all the sixes and multiples thereof while looking at the rest of the material:

Strategies for Earth Observation: 18th CEOS-SIT meeting at ESRIN On 21 and 22 March 2006, the Strategic Implementation Team (SIT) of the Committee on Earth Observation Satellites (CEOS) will be holding its 18th meeting at ESA’s ESRIN in Frascati. Members of CEOS-SIT include the some of the most important space agencies in the world – NASA, NOAA, ESA, JAXA of Japan, ISRO of India and CONAE of Argentina. CEOS was set up in 1984 under the auspices of the G-7 group to coordinate space agency programmes in the field of Earth Observation. ESA chairs the CEOS SIT (Strategy Implementation Team) for a two-year period, until November 2007, with the meetings of SIT chaired by Dr. Volker Liebig, Director of Earth Observation at ESA. The 18th meeting of the CEOS Strategic Implementation Team (SIT-18) is characterised by a very busy agenda. Three major items will be addressed: the response of space agencies worldwide to the needs of the Global Climate Observing System (GCOS), the implementation of the space components of the 2006 work plan of the Global Earth Observation System of Systems (GEOSS) and the long-term future of CEOS in its role as the primary mechanism for carrying out the GEOSS Implementation Plan on a timescale of ten years and more. The 10-year implementation plan of GEOSS was developed by the Group on Earth Observations (GEO) – an international body comprised of more than sixty countries worldwide – together with some 30 plus international organisations such as CEOS, WMO, UNESCO and the UN Environment Programme. It will provide politicians and decision makers with the tools to implement environmental and sustainable development policies in an integrated international approach. The 2006 plan involves the use of Earth Observation in all nine societal benefiting areas addressed by GEOSS, including natural disasters, energy, health, weather forecasting, climate and sustainable development and maintenance of biodiversity. It also includes the dissemination of collected data. In particular, the proposed SIT response to the Climate needs of GEOSS and GCOS is crucial in preparation for the next meeting of COP-12 (Conference of the Parties) / MOP-2 within the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, to be held in November 2006 in Nairobi.

More information:www.esa.int/esaEO/SEMLQ2OVGJE_index_0.html

Pasted from http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/earth_sciences/report-56968.html

"But there is a confluence of technology in the world today that wasn't there 30 years ago and there is a real need with 6 billion people in the world and growing to 9 billion to beat the Malthusian prophecies," he said. "You have to move and use your brain -- use our knowledge for the benefit of humankind," he said speaking about the need to pool and share data. Recognising its importance, the G-8 group has made it one of its three top science projects and the European Commission and U.S. administration have given it their backing. Like an all seeing virtual eye the system works by streaming data from thousands of different instruments including buoys, seismometers, satellites and other devices that assess the state of the earth.

I just wanted to share this morning's reading with everyone. It is so relevant to what we have been discussing here:

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.

Bringing fire from the heavens was foretold. What a delight that decisive, comprehensive analysis is continuing to flow from the one lawyer you can trust--Constance Cumbey.

I sought her out to give her heartfelt thanks, and wish her the Creator's every blessing of mercy and grace. I was just this morning pondering how grateful we all should be to this pioneer researcher. I then found myself re-reading Israeli writer Hannah Newman's e-book, "Rainbow Swastika" sounding the shofar warning of New Age genocide. It was first voiced by Cumbey.

I am delighted to find Constance the Constant in the thick of the fray. Genesis 3:15 counsels God's tactical foresight in His curse of Lucifer and his minions with the Woman & Seed--crush the head. Cumbey shows again that she is never a tail poker when there is a victory to be won.

Antichrist was being discussed on Art Bell's Coast-to-Coast radio show, and Solana's name was dropped. I was surprised to unearth headlines declaiming his stunning takeover of power. Javier who? Yet here he is, in full Luciferian splendor, with Cumbey unraveling the mystique and the mystery of the profane economic slave system of 666.

We fight not against men, but against powers and principalities. We win with the spiritual weapons of prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

Seeking to gain the efficacy of that special charism of the Blessed Virgin Mary, "pierced with a sword of sorrow that the thoughts of all may be revealed," I join in praying that the Woman exposes and swiftly cleanses all thoughts in that furnace of love which is her Seed, Jesus Christ's, Sacred Heart. AmenA. Gerard Nordskoven

"I fear that if the 70th week of Daniel does (and it may well) open on January 1, 2007 and persecution does begin to open (for many in the world, check out Serbia, their Christians already have!) The danger we face is that Christians who feel they will be whisked out this side of persecution may well lose their faith if they have been taught blind reliance on pre-trib rapture. I would like it to be that way as much as much as anybody, but I cannot shake the plain reading of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 which tells us that two things must precede the gathering together to the Lord:

1. The Apostasy (I have plainly witnessed that in full swing for the past 25 years!);

2. The revealing of the Man of Perdition."

and Constance said...

"Both sides [pre-tribbers and post-millenials] are set up for spiritual disillusionment and falling away from the faith as they are tested. People have lost their lives for their faith in the past -- why do we think the last generation will escape it and we will be in heaven 3 1/2 years before the antichrist is revealed."

I love you as a sister in Christ Constance but I disagree with some points in your argument.

I am a pre-trib rapture believer, but I'll at least say that we cannot AT LEAST experience the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week of Daniel. However, this point will also make the case for my final point later on why we can't even experience the first 3 1/2 years either. I ask all reading this to stick with this reading please.

I do not write this to bring contention and strife, but to inspire hope that we will not experience the 70th Week of Daniel. Please read with this intent in mind.

This struck me with resounding clarity because it clarifies explicitly the purpose of the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week and implicitly the entire 70th week. And it carries with it two major presuppositions: 1) the modern state of Israel is still relevant and has a specific destiny in the end-times scenario laid out in breath-taking detail throughout the 66 books of the bible, and 2) that there is a clear difference and purpose between Israel and the Church. With that...

"No matter where you place the Rapture in the End Times Scenario, if you believe in the Lord's all-sufficient work on the cross, then you know that the Church has to be protected from the End Times judgments, not purified by them. If you don't believe that the Lord's work was sufficient, but that the coming judgments are needed to finish what He only began, then you have much bigger problems than figuring out when the Rapture will occur." -Jack Kelley

More on this quote later, but let me address your statement in order Constance.

Indulging the possibility that the we may experience the first half of the tribulation period the second half, AT LEAST is an impossibility because the second 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week of Daniel is called the Great Tribulation or "the time of Jacob's trouble"--which is a direct reference to Israel, and not the Church. And it is blessedly supported by the following:

"How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. I am with you and will save you,' declares the LORD . 'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.' (Jeremiah 30:7,11)

Reference to Jacob refers to Israel and not the Church, contrary to replacement theological belief. The proof is in this cross-reference: Acts 15:13-17; Romans 11:5-11, 25-28

In light of the new covenant, Jeremiah 30:7,11 cannot be a reference to the Church during the final years of human history for this age. This I am delighted to know!

Why? I'll get to the why, bare with me.

I also know that there is a certain anonymous in this comments room that dislikes this type of discourse, but it won't stop right up to the very last day of history. As a matter of fact it will increase as the persecution of believers increases. ...this is what is not being understood. It was prophesied and you're fighting an uphill battle.

As a matter of fact it will be a prophecy no less, that will save the lives of a remnant of Jews following the abomination of desolation, where Jesus seemingly employs this coded reference of "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet [Dan. 9:27], stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: FOR THEN SHALL THE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE." (Matthew 24:15-21)

More to the point, it won't be the news reports FIRST that saves these peoples lives, but the knowledge and the wherewithal from the Word of God plus the news reports during at the mid-point of the tribulation that kicks off an abrupt and frightening exodus out of Israel to Petra after the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation.

Now, I'm not accusing you of being a King James only-ist Constance, but you made a comment about the clearness of 2 Thess. 2:3. There are two main schools of though about this particular passage among theologians: one points toward the pre-trib rapture with overwhelming historical and literal biblical support, and the other stands on an unsupported metaphor.

The disagreement is on whether the Greek word "apostesia" ("falling away") refers to a physical departure (the rapture) or a metphorical one (departure from faith). In reference to the first school of thought, there are SEVEN translations of the English Bible that render "apostesia" as "departure":

It is unknown as to why the King James translators rendered apostesia as "falling away" or why others rendered it as "rebellion." But a strong case has been made for why the seven earlier translation is the proper rendering. If you take the "departure" view then 2 Thess. 2:3 leaves no doubt about the rapture preceding the 70th Week of Daniel. But if you take the "falling away" rendering then the passage would be referring to the career of the Antichrist during the 70th week of Daniel. What is important to understand here is the "that day" phrase and its reference to Christ's glorious appearing as laid out in Revelation 19:11-16 where it says: "That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Crist is at hand." THEN it says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." The "that day" reference is not a reference to the day fo the rapture, but the glorious appearing of Christ in the clouds for EVERY eye to see at the END of the 70th Week of Daniel.

Furthermore, 2 Thess. 2 verses 2,3 and 4 are prefaced by the Apostle Paul with two points of clarification because of a lie that was spread during the time he wrote the two letters to the Church in Thessalonia (we know them as 1st and 2nd Thessalonians). It is important to understand that Paul sent out these letters because a lie was spread that Christ had come and gone. So, Paul begins his arugment by saying, "We now beseech you [ask you], brethren, by [concerning] the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND by our gathering together unto him." Paul gives a two point thesis statement in effect in verse 1.

Notice the two distinctions made here: the first is to the Glorious appearing, and the second is to our gathering to him or the rapture--concerning the latter reference both schools of thought agree is true obviously.

Then in verses 2 through 3 Paul addresses his two points in that EXACT order.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by:

POINT #1 of v. 1:"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come..."

POINT #2 of v. 1: "AND by our gathering together unto him [the rapture]"

"..except there come a [1.]falling away first, and [then 2.] that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exaltheth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Then to top it all off Paul says, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? AND NOW YE KNOW WHAT WITHHOLDETH THAT HE MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS TIME FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY WORK: ONLY HE WHO NOW LETTETH WILL LET, UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. AND THEN shall the Wicked be revealed, whome the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." (This is in reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-11 where Paul first addressed the lie of Christ having come and gone a first time around.)

What is so amazing about 2 Thess. 2:1-12 is that the pre-trib rapture doctrine matches its setup. It pratically lists the proper order of fulfillment:

1. the rapture first, 2. then the appearing of of the antichrist, 3. the abomination of desolation4. and finally the glorious appearing of Christ to destroy the Antichrist

But if you combine the "that day" reference with the rapture, as opposed to being distinct from it, then the verses 1-12 make no sense and some verses are rendered pointless. Furthermore, you are left with the unprecedented and violent twisting of the 2 Thess. 2:3 by adding "a defection from the truth" into the context of the verse, which is NOT stated in the Greek nor the English AT ALL. In other words, I know that Herbert Peters, author of Fulfilled Prophecy shares the "falling away" fromt he faith view on this passage, but it is built on an unprecedented and unsubstantiated metaphor that is neither implicit nor explicitly stated in the Biblical text of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. As a matter of fact, Herbert confused the "that day" reference as being the rapture, and made the falling a reference to a falling from the faith on the church's part or apostasy in the church. There is a biblical reference to this fact, but 2 Thess. 2:3 is NOT the one.

Instead, the passage literally states based pro-pretrib school of thought is the "that day" is a reference to the glorious appearing of Christ at the end of the tribulation period (70th Week of Daniel) and that "falling away" rendering is a mistranslation, that truly refers to the departure of the church from the world.

Many that dissagree with the pre-tribulation rapture PREFER the Greek word apostesia as "a falling away first," for to agree with the seven translators of the English Bible would weigh very heavily in favor of the pre-tribulational Rapture position.

But here is what Greek scholar, Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest had to say about it:

"The root verb "aphistemi" is found fifteen times in the New Testament. It is translated "depart" eleven times. It is used once in connection with departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). The very fact that the qualifying words "from the faith" are added, shows that in itself the word does not have the idea of a defection from the truth. Eight times it is used of a departure from a person, once in the sense of a departure from a place. In other places where it is found it istranslated "fall away," in the case of those in temptation (Luke 8:13), "drew away" much people (Acts 5:37), "refrain" from these men (Acts 5:38). The predominant meaning of this verb in the New Testament, therefore, is that of the act of a person departing from another person or from a place. The neuter noun, apostasion, is translated in its three occurences by the word "divorcement," which in itself suggests a withdrawal of one person from another. Thayer translates the word, "a defection" of a freedman from his patron, "a divorce, a repudiation." The feminine form, apostasia, appears in Acts 21:21 where Paul is charged with teaching "all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses," "forsake" being the AV translation of the word. "To forsake" involes a departure. This word is found only here and in our Thessalonian passage."

According to Greek scholars, the secondary meaning of apostasia is "a departure" or "a disappearance." This is compelling evidence for the pre-tribulational rapture view as opposed to the King James rendering of "falling away" or as some translators put it today, "rebellion" (i.e. New International Version)

Therefore I conclude that both phases of the Lord's coming separated by the 70th week of Daniel are supported, and not debunked by 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

Lastly, Constance you made a point of why would the last generation of Church saints not be persecuted and/or tested when many in the earlier centuries of the church were.

Let's go back to that quote by Jack Kelley. Rapture doctrine is based on the new covenant relationship with Christ Jesus. In other words, it is a benefit of the grace of God through the cross; it is exclusively tied to the gift of salvation. It cannot be earned, worked for, suffered for, persecuted for, etc.

With this fact in mind, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Salvation is three fold: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.

Justification: Christ's righteous on the cross has been imputed to all who beleive in Him without merit lest they miss the cross all together. (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11)

Sancitifcation: We are sancitifed daily in our walk with Christ on this earth through our ups and downs but continually learning how to be more Christ-like. This has no bearing on justification at all. (Gal. 5:22-23)

Glorification: And we will be glorified with Christ in the still imminent future--the Rapture. The details of what happens to us in the rapture event (1 Thess. 4: 13-18) are laid out in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.

Herein, lies the crux of my arugment. If we are not appointed to wrath, but to salvation then the your presupposition in so many words of "persecution not being escaped" is besides the point. As a matter of fact persecution started at the cross and continues to this day. What I believed you missed is the actual purpose of the 70th Week of Daniel. I explained earlier that the latter 3 1/2 year-long half according to the prophet Jeremiah is for Israel, but also according to the prophet Daniel the whole week is devoted to the restoration of Jacob [Israel]. The Church has no business in the 70th Week of Daniel.

The angel Gabriel said to Daniel, "O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding."

The entire purpose for the 70th week is in this passage:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,..."

"...to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

(This verse alone debunks, dominionist-replacement theology believers. It throws down the gauntlet and hard! No where will you find a support that the Church will overwhelm and dominate the world's governments and "bring in everlasting righteousness".)

And then it says further down, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, evne until the consummation [the world as we know it], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Again, if we are not appointed to wrath but salvation, then the judgments of the 70th Week starting from the Seal Judgments of Chapter (Rev. 6:1-8:5), The Seven Trumpet Judgments (8:7-11:19), The Seven Bowl Judgments (15:1-16:21) then God is a liar. "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." (Rom. 3:4 and Psalm 51:4)

The purpose of the Tribulation Period is:

1. To fulfill Israel's prophecies2. To shake man from his false sense of security3. To force man to choose Christ or Antichrist

That is it. The church is in need of neither of these purposes for God's judgments on earth. Otherwise, it makes no sense and is a violation of the covenant of grace. By the standard of the cross, the Church cannot experience God's wrath.

Now some people retort, "Oh no, I agree, but we will be persecuted in the tribulation period." But persecution is also apart of God's wrath via the first Seal Judgment which is primarily believed to be the release of Antichrist upon the earth and the start of his 7-year reign of terror and bloodshed. His bloodshed doesn't start at the mid-point but rather increases seemingly exponentially at the mid-point and begins at the start of the seven years. We are not subject to judgment in the from God in the 70th Week.

There is a lot of detailed and compelling support that stick to logic without violating literal hermeneutics and essential and non-essential Biblical doctrine compared to the opposing views on the rapture.

I Pray that this discourse brings hope to your heart. My faith in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is NOT blind, but highly educated "rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

God Bless and Maranatha!David

P.S. Contrary to popular belief that pre-tribbers just sit on their laurels with this pie-in-the-sky in the sweet by-and-by mode of thinking is false. Some do think that way, but not the majority and those who throw up this strawman are even greater fools for parroting such nonsense.

Tim LaHaye writes, "Historically, belief in the any-moment-coming of Christ has three vital effects on Christians and their churches.

1. It produces holy living in an unholy society. John said, "Everyone who has this hope in Him [the return of Christ] purifies himself, just as He is pure" (1 John 3:3).

2. It produces an evangelistic church of soul-winning Christians. When we believe Christ could appear at any momment, we seek to share Him with our friends lest they be left behind at His coming.

3. Belief in the imminent return of Christ impels Christians and churches to develop worldwide missionary vision of reaching the lost for Christ.

To those supposed Christians that taunt unbelievers with this "I'm gonna be rapture and you're not crap" are living contrary to the Christ's message and the hope of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. That is when the fulness of the gentiles comes in, we're gone without a trace.

Hopefully you are right, but if you are wrong, Christians could decide the whole thing was baloney and lose their faith. I stand by my message: NO MATTER HOW IT COMES DOWN, TRUST GOD. HE'S GOT THE BIG PICTURE, WE'VE GOT THE LITTLE PICTURE. Put our confidence in HIM and not in our own eschatological interpretations. I would like to be out of here as much as you, but I'm not going to decide that this can't be the antichrist, I'm still here, this can't be the 70th week of Daniel, I'm still here, this nanotechnology, microchip they want to insert for my medical ID can't be the mark of the beast, I'm still here!

I've read various books on the rapture and have found both the pre-trib and mid-trib positions to be equally convincing—depends which position I’m reading at the time. For me, I can’t confidently say with 100 percent accuracy where the rapture is positioned--I honestly don’t know. My certainty is in the Lord’s salvation. If persecution comes our way, it is this certainty that will carry me through. There is the very real possibility that as the United States is dismantled, that severe persecution awaits us. I’ve had conversations with other believers who view the collapse of the United States and the rapture as happening simultaneously so thereby, we escape persecution. The expectation of smooth sailing all the way to heaven gives me cause for concern. My message to people: Expect some very hard times ahead. Be in the Word and know what choices you will make if that is required of you.

Don’t get me wrong, I really, really hope that your interpretation is the correct one.Submitted by RichInMedford

Well, people losing their faith is something that God can handle. They may think that they have "lost" their faith but really have not, just to indulge your point for the moment. But again, God can handle it and they won't be disappointed either way--tribulation suffering or not. God has a plan, this is a fact that many Christians forget! In as much that God wanted us to know of our salvation and the assuredness of it, he gave and escape is definitely entailed. Escape is the heart of wha salvation is--escape from wrath.

God is faithful, we are not. This fact alone maintains our hope in Him. We're not appointed to wrath. God can't lie! 2 Thess. 5:9 is not an eschatological interpretation its clear as day--"we are not appointed to wrath." God said. Its done. Period. Hallelujah! Amen! What is there to contemplate?

I stand by what HE said not what I said.

You're saved I'm saved, and we should continue to preach the Gospel until our time is up.

0To John 14You make the comment that we are not appointed to wrath and take that from 1Thes 5:9. If you read 1 Thes. 1:10 you would realize that once we are born again we are DELIVERED--past tense from the wrath to come. So using the other scripture to support a pre-trib view doesn't hold up. Jesus himself said we would have tribulation (JN 16:33). It is the same meaning for great or small and we are to be of good cheer because he has overcome the world! It is a done deal!Charlotte

"You make the comment that we are not appointed to wrath and take that from 1Thes 5:9. If you read 1 Thes. 1:10 you would realize that once we are born again we are DELIVERED--past tense from the wrath to come. So using the other scripture to support a pre-trib view doesn't hold up. Jesus himself said we would have tribulation (JN 16:33). It is the same meaning for great or small and we are to be of good cheer because he has overcome the world! It is a done deal!"

Okay, if I am understanding what you said above correctly you are confusing WRATH with PERSECUTION. And so was Constance, and I don't think she caught on to this fact.

PERSECUTION

Persecution in the bible is affliction from the rulers and servants of the god of this world--Satan.

You are absolutely correct in saying that in John 16:33 Jesus Himself promises us, persecution, most definitely from THE WORLD. Thus, Jesus' "I have overcome the world" statement makes much sense.

As a matter of fact I'll "read" it back to you. "Behold, the hour cometh yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every mann to his own [place], and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not along, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

In the NIV this passage is rendered: "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you WILL HAVE TROUBLE. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

But it still isn't completely clear.

Cross-referencing this with Romans 8:35-37 it reads:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distresss, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, FOR THEY SAKE WE ARE KILLED ALL THE DAY LONG; WE ARE ACCOUNTED AS SHEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor heigh, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.etc"

The whole context of this is the spiritual overcoming of the world regardless of what may happen to us, EVEN unto death. Hence why Romans 8 is prefaced by Paul in the first verse, once again:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

And it is this verse among many others that gives us the clear distinction between wrath and persecution when placed side-by-side with Romans 8:37. In verse one, it is basically stating, there is not wrath appointed to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, LEST WE COMPROMISE THE DOCTRINE OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH--basically all those chapter preceding Romans Chapter 8.

However, in verse 37 comes in list very real varying scenarios of persecution that can be experienced by the Christian in the World, BUT because we are in Christ Jesus we have escaped his condemnation or wrath.

This is a literal reference to the love of Christ, which is intangible and inseparable from the believer as it is a matter of the heart. Confession of faith is a matter of the heart and can't be taken away. Hence why all the examples listed by Paul as afflictions (which range between spiritual and physical opposition) can't touch what the believer has with God: his love through Christ's sacrifice at the cross.

This is also corroborated with 2 Timothy 3:12 unequivocally: "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." This is a clear description of affliction from people in the world and the powers and principalities that they are motivated by. Read verses 10 and 11 before it.

Romans 8:35 in the NIV it is rendered: "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?"

WRATH

The wrath of God is judgment either at death for the unbeliever, and in the world exacted by Him ALONE on those that are still unbelieving following the rapture into the 7-year tribulation period. (Take note that this is the exact opposite of what happens to those believers that are dead or alive at Christ's calling in 2 Thess. 4:13-18. Food for thought.)

The wrath is not a reference to the wrath of the world, but THE WRATH OF GOD. God's wrath is inflicted by Him for an exact place, time and purpose. THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE.

By confusing wrath with persecution you run the risk of delving into works righteousness whether you really meant to or not.

For example, if I plug wrath into the John 16:33 passage it won't make sense when understanding that it is God inflicting pain upon man--keeping in mind that we're save by grace thru faith in Christ's work on the cross and not our works:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. [But] In the world ye shall have [my wrath]: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

What kind of sick and sadistic God is this?

Obviously, this makes no sense. Therefore John 16:33 has to be referring to persecution from the world the world.

Now let's flip it and see if 1 Thessalonians is supporting 2 Thessalonians 5:9 with the same point or not.

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the [persecution from the world] to come."

Obviously, this does not match the proper meaning of John 16:33 but contradicts it, thus proving my initial point about John 16:33 as a reference to perseuction from the world, not wrath from God. And this also doubly supports my argument that 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is a reference to deliverance from the wrath of God at the cross--tying the rapture to salvation in Christ Jesus. The rapture can't be earned, it is like apart of the whole salvation package.

What needs to be understood is that the wrath of God has not been exacted yet! The 7-year tribulation is the period of God's wrath.

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of ungodly men." Notice it didn't say godly men [men and women]. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:7-9)

The Church has a specific goal for only a time. Read Romans chapters 10, 11 and 12. I can't get into the distinction between the Church and Israel without writing a book, as it is not simple matter.

The judgments begin right at the beginning of the period with The Seal Judgments, then The Trumpet Judgments, followed by The Bowl Judgments--all of which are from God from start to finish of the 7 years.

On more point, there has been persecution from day one of human existence and will go on to the very last day. Therefore, you have in effect my friend, said nothing at all. What's your point. I am not speaking this way to be condescending, but showing the hermenuetical and logical breakdown of your argument all-together. It just requires a little closer reading.

Therefore, with this understanding, we know that we will suffer persecution in the world until the rapture, however we will experience our persecution (Constance was very correct about persecution of Christians in Serbia) from the world no further than some point before the 70th Week of Daniel begins. Why?

Because the wrath of God will be revealed finally in this last week of Daniel's prophecy that was a prophecy appointed to Israel, not the Church. Read Daniel Chapter 9.

I therefore conclude that you have actually corroborated my initial point.

Lastly, you find reitered exactly what I said in the beginning that the rapture is inextricably linked to salvation in Glorification in 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Our non-appointment to wrath is tied into our glorification in the rapture, hence the reference to the reference of how God raised the Son from the dead. And in the same way we shall experience the same glorification for those that are dead in Christ, first, and as for those that are alive at Christ calling up to heaven, we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye second.

"Let's go back to that quote by Jack Kelley. ["No matter where you place the Rapture in the End Times Scenario, if you believe in the Lord's all-sufficient work on the cross [keeping in mind the difference between wrath and persecution], then you know that the Church has to be protected from the End Times judgments, not purified by them. If you don't believe that the Lord's work was sufficient, but that the coming judgments are needed to finish what He only began, then you have much bigger problems than figuring out when the Rapture will occur." -Jack Kelley] Rapture doctrine is based on the new covenant relationship with Christ Jesus. In other words, it is a benefit of the grace of God through the cross; it is exclusively tied to the gift of salvation. Thus the rapture cannot be earned, worked for, suffered for, persecuted for, etc. It along with the cross of Christ is a free gift.

With this fact in mind, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Salvation is three fold: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.

Justification: Christ's righteous on the cross has been imputed to all who beleive in Him without merit lest they miss the cross all together. (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11)

Sancitifcation: We are sancitifed daily in our walk with Christ on this earth through our ups and downs but continually learning how to be more Christ-like. This has no bearing on justification at all. (Gal. 5:22-23)

Glorification: And we will be glorified with Christ in the still imminent future--the Rapture. The details of what happens to us in the rapture event (1 Thess. 4: 13-18) are laid out in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.

Herein, lies the crux of my arugment. If we are not appointed to wrath, but to salvation then the your presupposition in so many words of "persecution not being escaped" is BESIDES THE POINT. As a matter of fact persecution started at the cross and continues to this day. What I believed you missed is the actual purpose of the 70th Week of Daniel. Concerning Wrath, THE PURPOSE OF THE 70TH WEEK IS THE WRATH OF GOD AGAINST UNBELIEVERS, AND TO PURIFY ISRAEL PRIMARILY! I explained earlier that the latter 3 1/2 year-long half according to the prophet Jeremiah is for Israel, but also according to the prophet Daniel the whole week is devoted to the restoration of Jacob [Israel]. The Church has no business in the 70th Week of Daniel."

The Rapture is tied to salvation by grace thru faith. With this I will also say that therefore even if you don't "buy into" the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, by the Grace of God your faith in Christ grants you the gift of eternal life, but is unsearchable riches and glory that he has chosen to lavish on us--starting at the gift of the cross, and the rapture second and everything thereafter. Again, belief is Christ is a must, but while the rapture is tied to it, it not a big deal if you reject the pre-trib rapture view. I just want to make that clear.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 are not references to perseuction from the world, but wrath from God. Why would believers in Christ need to suffer more for what was supposedly finished at the cross.

Works righteousness is a heretical doctrine! We CANNOT suffer, burn, die, scream, cry, work, or any other verb for salvation.

The rapture passage starts off with an explicit connection to salvation:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him....etc".

Notice the context of the verses immediately preceding and following 2 Thessalonians 5:9. It speaks of salvation.

You may rest assured CONSTANCE was NOT confusing wrath with persecution. The seals of Revelation were divided into two segments -- one the rise of the beast and lawlessness, AND YES, persecution of the saints (wait until your fellow servants should be killed as they were killed.) The redeemed were shown standing in heaven between the 6th and 7th seals. The 7th seal was God's wrath, e.g. punishment upon the Beast and his kingdom. That God's people were spared. They were not shown spared the persecution which was upon believers. Now if only Satan and his minions and groupies are left upon earth, they wouldn't need to persecute anybody. They could have a party with the devils celebrating their future cohorts in hell

I have to add in a comment that is overlooked a lot of times discussing the pre- or post-trib rapture, and I do agree with john 14:6's point of view. By no means am I wanting to start conflict. I personally do see the pre-trib rapture view and am definitely encouraged by what I read. This is just food for thought, hoping to encourage those people who have not fully looked or might swing either way. And I was not taught this in a church. So as far as denominational teachings, forget it. I do not hold to any! Luke Ch. 21:35 Jesus said "For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth". This one verse brings up a serious question. Why would Jesus say it will basically effect everyone that lives on earth because obviously the tribulation consumes the whole earth? Well the first logical question would be, have we found any form or any evidence of human or any other life forms in exsistence on any other planet or galaxy as far as humanly possible? No, even though we have searched very long and hard the answer is definitely no. Ok, then there must be another place where humans dwell because there would be no need to tell us "... on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth". This would be considered an obvious statement that the tribulation will affect the whole world without a doubt. So really there is no need for Jesus to tell us that. There are other sections of the Bible that clearly communicate this whole world thought. So there are only two other places to go, heaven or hell. Now the next verse. Vs. 36. Jesus stated " Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man". First He states watch for the things that you know are coming. Then He says to pray without ceasing that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will take place. But then the next statement hits the nail on the head. "...and to stand before the Son of Man". Did you notice the placement of the word and? It means 'also'. So when you put this all together, when you are escaping the things to come and standing before the Son of Man you are in heaven! Jesus is not going to be on earth during the tribulation so we can't look for him here for protection. Now one question would be for the christian community as a whole: how many christians are praying constantly to be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming? Not many! So if you are not watching what is coming, then you are not praying to escape the things that you don't or choose not to see and know are on the horizon to some generation. Watching means that we are physically preparing to protect ourselves as God provides the resources for us, but it has its limitations. Money, location, the whole nine yards. So to prepare for every situation would be insane. But God gives us the best defense: "pray". This is above all the most valuable preparation especially for the time period that is fast approaching. Praying without ceasing means that you have an active ongoing relationship with Jesus. Now a comment on Paul's writing in second Thes. 2:3" Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition". Say for arguments sake the 'falling away' is people departing the faith. From vs. 3-8 if you read, there are 2 revelations of the same man, or the anti-christ. Verse 3 he is called the man of sin. Verse 8 he is called the lawless one. This is two separate revealings of the same man but 2 different time periods. One is before the tribulation as the man of sin. Then the tribulation starts and he is referred to as the lawless one. There has only been one Bible translation that I have found that has both names as being the same name. So there is a reason there are 2 different references to this same person. Now if you follow these verses in order Vs.3 and vs. 8 they are separated by vs.6 and it states "and now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time" One common thought is that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and I do believe it is so, but there is one additional thing people leave out. It is the time factor. Everything in the Bible has its period of time and season. Well, the Antichrist is no exception. His time is scheduled in advance. But looking at 2 thes. ch.2 it seems like the antichrist time is revealed to christians as the man of sin before the rapture and the lawless one after, which is the tribulation. Verse 8 says "and then the lawless one will be revealed...". Now another time element falls into play here in the words 'AND THEN' at the beginning of verse 8. Well obviously 'and then' has to follow something that is previous. Now this is where Revelation 13:18 comes in. "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast,for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." This verse gives 2 different names, beast and man. But both are referred to with the same 666. But the time factor could still be applied. Why would this verse give the formula to figure out the man of sin as well as the beast? Because one 666 number identifies both as the same entity. It seems to me this number will be recognizable at both stages of time. Before the tribulation and during. Revelation ch. 6 is the beginning of the tribulation with the antichrist who conquers, not sits in the background. So say this Solana man is the antichrist, he is still sitting in the background letting everyone else take the credit. So if we know the identification of the man 666 now, we couldn't be in the tribulation because he is not the beast version of 666 revealed yet. So as a christian who believes in pre-trib rapture, this 666 stuff definitely motivates me beyond my wildest dreams to spread the gospel of Jesus and not just to sit on my hands and wait to fly up. I'm sorry if this is long reading, I hope you all have the patience to endure. I love you all. And to Constance directly: I love your blog and no matter what your view, I am still behind you 100%. I keep you in my prayers for your protection as well as prosperity and peace of mind. I know what you have here is a special communication tool that God has given you and I only wish I could have 1% of your skills. I look forward to meeting you in person someday. If not here, it will be in heaven because I can say I know that I'm a child of God and will see you there.

John 14I am not confusing wrath w/ persecution. I was just trying to show you after pointing out we are NOT appointed to wrath when we are born again that when we have tribulation God has given us a way of escape. I'm a very simple person and see things very simply. If you are pre-trib because you are not appointed to wrath you want out of here before the real trouble starts (the wrath of God). The scripture in 1 Thes. 1:10 already states you are DELIVERED from the wrath of God. Matthew Poole explains this verse beautifully using all tenses of the verb."If weread the word as our translation hath it,it implies a continued act: hi is delivering us from the wrath to come, either by his intercession, or by supplies of his grace delivering us from the power of sin and temtations, and so preserving us in a state of salvation. Or if we read the word in the future tense, who will deliver us, as we often find the present tense both in the Hebrew and Greek to have a future signification, it refers to his last coming: and therefore the saints need not be afraid of the terror of that day, but wait for it: for though the wrath to come is greater than ever yet brake forth in the world, Rom.2:5, yet a drop of it shall not fall upon them. Though they may meet with temporal afflictions and chastisements at present, and may be assulted by the wrath of men, yet they shall be free from the wrath to come. And this will be done by a powerful rescue of Christ, as the word imports, notwithstanding all the danger and difficulty that may attend it." See the difference--he shows how God takes us through which is really His GLORY. When I first got saved many years ago I loved the pre-trib doctrine but the more I read the Word I got honest w/ the Lord and told him it was because I didn't want to go through what was coming. From there he has led and shown me me and where I was on sinking sand.Heb 4 is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible and expecially the last verse! He knows the thought and intents of our heart and if we let him expose these to us we find the throne room of grace the most excellent place to be for my strength comes through MERCY. I know I can't go through what is coming but I'm not trusting in me but the Lord to take me. When he does come back I'm not going to glory--I'm going to shed this mortal, fleshly, body and be like him. He receives ALL the glory!

I have to comment on one of the comments that Charlotte made. It refers to the last coming of the Lord as being the time when we go to meet Jesus, at the end of the tribulation, if I have understood it correctly. I hear the comment quite often that we will go to heaven at the end of the tribulation because every eye shall see Him. Ok, one question would be why would we go up to meet Jesus in the clouds to just do a U-turn and come right back to earth with him? What about the marriage supper? As christians we have to return with the Lord during the millenium. Some people say it's only certain groups like the people who died for there witness of Jesus and so on. Well Paul proves we will be with Jesus wherever He is forever. Now there could be other people that are still here on earth at the end of the tribulation for sure, but that's not it. Paul states in 1 Thess.4:16-18 vs.16 " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the Dead in Christ will rise first". 17" Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord". 18" Therefore comfort one another with these words". Now I don't think Paul lied to us when he said "we shall ever be with the Lord." I mean if Jesus is coming back to rule for a thousand years, He's not going to leave us in heaven without Him. If He did, it would be a lie. So if we are going to meet the Lord in the air, do we do a u-turn and come right back? It doesn't sound like it when you read through Revelation. We are there celebrating and worshipping the King. Or do we meet the Lord in the air, shake hands and continue on to heaven? Sounds a little ridiculous. And I don't mean this as an insult. But then in vs.18 Paul tells us to comfort one another with these words. How are you going to comfort a new believer in telling them we are going to go through the tribulation especially if its 5 days after they received Christ and the tribulation starts? I don't think they will have any comfort knowing they would be killed for accepting Christ. They still need milk. They will not comprehend that at all. So how do you give them comfort? Paul tells us to comfort them. 1 Thess.4:8 ".... hope of salvation." Since when is salvation hope? It's not. It's by faith and a promise. Vs.9 "... but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ". Since when is salvation an act for us to obtain? It's not. It's by faith, not by works. So Paul is referring to some other sort of salvation. Could it be rescue? When someone pulls you out from in front of a truck, what do you think you would say? Thank-you, you saved my life! Now they wouldn't have given you eternal salvation. So to this verse it refers to rescue. Now about another item. Did you know Jesus ascended to heaven twice? Most people say what, or your crazy! Well take a look at John 20:17. When Jesus rose on the third day and Mary went to the tomb and didn't see him she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. Vs.17 Jesus said to her "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". Now 8 days later we see in vs.27 when Jesus appeared to the disciples when Thomas was there. Vs. 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but be believing". Why would he let Thomas touch him but not Mary? He went to heaven and came back. Well the ascension into the clouds was viewed by many. So that was obvious. Now my point in this is if Jesus secretly ascended to heaven, then he publicly ascended to heaven don't you think there will possibly be a secret return that we call the rapture and then a public return? After all we go to meet him in the air. Matthew 24:27 Jesus says "For as lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". Why would Jesus say that it comes from the east and flashes to the west? Well lightning starts in the clouds and a lot of times just jumps to another cloud. Most of the time it does not touch the ground, it stays in the clouds. Also lightning travels at the speed of light. We will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. So when we go to meet Jesus in the clouds, He is not physically coming to earth my friends. That is His secret return for his bride. His public return where every eye shall see will be on the Mount of Olives. Also when He says "... so shall the coming of the Son of Man be" in Matt. 24:27 he refers to Himself as the Son of Man, not King of kings and Lord of lords as in Revelation at his final return. This is why I jump for joy at pre-trib rapture. I hope this will cheer some of you up. From your brother in Christ.

I really don't know the time frame of meeting the Lord in the air and coming back but a day to the Lord is like a thousand. I really don't worry about that. A comment you made about why would someone want to accept the Lord and then die 5 days later is sad to me. You know we are to count the cost but are they drawn by the will of man or by the Holy Spirit. You are looking at an earthly kingdom & we are supposed to look at an eternal kingdom otherwise 'accepting' the Lord to excape the tribulation is the wrong reason...and that is strictly in the flesh. You can dialogue about 'ifs' but basically you get nowhere because God is looking at the heart and sees everything.What is the gospel? that you get out of the tribulation...no! Christ took the sting out of death so if you present the gospel properly to that person that was going to die five days later there would be no worry. Do you not share the gospel with someone that is sick & on their death bed? I recommend some good books like "Gospel Fear" by Jerimiah Burroughs or "Evil of Evils" by him. Charlotte

Charlotte,You know, I agree with most of your points here but it seems like the one thought that caused you to respond to me is either caused by misreading or misinterpreting the five day comment. Notice I am talking about a new believer, not about witnessing to an unbeliever. Alot of new believers still fear death, and that is something that has to be overcome as they grow and as God reveals.

Apparently, this happens when the bridegroom brings his bride back, but what a lot of people don't seem to realise is that in a traditional Jewish wedding the bridegroom will come unexpectedly with some of his friends and sort of kidnap his bride, and he takes her away to a secret place for seven days and then he brings her back home for the marriage feast.

The seven days has always been something that I still think will have to fit in for such a marriage to be accomplished, and I think the Lord will stick to that, and the Church will be taken away, either for seven days or maybe even seven years!

In answer to your question about new believers and telling them they will die doesn't really show anything. They could die at ANY time, people have always had those possibilities especially in countries where there is much persecution. Our responsibility is to share the full gospel and let the Holy Spirit work. We don't know what each and every person will have to go through. I have a fear of dying too maybe just not the way a new believer would-- I don't relish the thought of pain! That is where I have to trust the Lord to supply me with all my need. I think Constance mentioned that God has the BIG picture and we only see the little. This is the same thing.

If christians are going to be raptured before the trib, then who are going to be beheaded for the witness of Christ? Christians. The ones who get saved during the tribulation. People do know at this time and age that you would not worship someone who claims to be God. Although some cults do, and I feel bad for the ones who have bean decieved. When the anti-christ steps into power and demands worship of himself, I think a few people would take notice. It just wouldn't seem normal especialy if people dont worship him and they are killed. I think it would cause some serious soul searching. And there is only one place with the answers, the Bible. I think a lot of people will come to repentance during this time period and except Christ. At this point it does not get them out of harms way.

Constance,I was wondering if you think people should serve more than one master. We have our heavenly Father's laws and I can not see following another's law system, such as man's laws. What do you think? Can man pass laws to regulate what our heavenly Father created?

About Me

As an active Michigan lawyer, I practice my profession primarily in Macomb, Oakland and Wayne counties of Michigan, USA (248-253-0333). Sometimes I do work in my old "stomping grounds" of our State Capitol, Lansing, Michigan on administrative, state law related matters, as well. I've enjoyed active and stimulating careers in government, politics, law and as a published and translated author. In the past, I have worked for the Michigan House of Representatives, the Michigan State Senate, and the City of Highland Park, Michigan. I'm the author of the first major critical book about the New Age Movement, THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW: The New Age Movement and our Coming Age of Barbarism (1983); A PLANNED DECEPTION: The Staging of a New Age Messiah (1986). Currently, I'm completing a volume about Javier Solana, the Barcelona Process, Israel and the European Union. Email me cumbey@gmail.com.