I supposed you think Yags would have done better with Plush's choreo or won so many titles. The fact is Plush can do with the not so good choreo Mishin gives him what no other skater can. A truly gifted skater.:D

What?, I don't get it. How many more World Titles could have Yags won. He has 4, Regular Competition Titles, I can't even begin to count them over the years. Olympic Title, No Way that Michael Jackson program was near WINTER. I don't get the question. But, I did say before that plush is a talented skater. & I doubt if anyone other skateroutside of Plush or Yagudin could have won with those programs. The other skaters lack their talent
I liked most of Yags programs just the way the are/were. Regardless Yags still won with the programs when he was with Mishin. I just did not care too much for those. He was a jumper then. Very Little artistic flare at that time.

But many people say Plushenko is still great despite those odd "Mishin" choreographies and Yagudin is just great because of Tarasovas masterful, "matching" choreographies, which means Plushenko is truly natural talented, Yagudin not?

the footwork in Evgeni's Michael Jackson LP was some of the most difficult ever done. Yes, Alexei's Winter footwork was also difficult, but not to the degree of MJ.

But people....PLEASE PAY ATTENTION. Mishin doesn't choreograph the programs!!!! And I've only seen Evgeni do the chicken move once (I don't like it either), so it's not like it's a staple or anything (and the crowd at Kitchner went nuts when he did it...)

Originally posted by boggartlaura Cupcake's choreography at worlds, especially her lp's, was awful.

I agree!! That Long program at worlds was in one word: awful. I do however love,love, love her short program because it really shows her strenghs. Also Cohen's Carmen program never really came together except at the GoodWill games. That was IMHO the best performance of that program even with the twofooted 3-3. She keep changing the ending footwork and the program was horrible cherographed. I really hope Cohen revisits Carman becasue she has the potential to put Kat. Witt's version to shame(and we all know I consider Kat Witt to have the BEST Carmen program EVER)

Plush - Urmanov - Mishin

Just my two cents:

Mishin doesn't create the choreographies of his skaters himself, granted. But then, how come that there are similarities between Urmanov's and Plushenko's programs? (It's a true question, not an attempt to bash or critisize or whatever .... )
To me, it sounds more like a cooperation between choreographer and coach - but this is just a guess of mine.

Originally posted by Summer of Love But many people say Plushenko is still great despite those odd "Mishin" choreographies and Yagudin is just great because of Tarasovas masterful, "matching" choreographies, which means Plushenko is truly natural talented, Yagudin not?

:D I know some fans who would totally agree with you!

Both Yags and Plushenko are excellent technical skaters, thanks to Mishin btw. Their personnalities and skating styles are different, though. I would describe Yags as being powerful and passionate and Plushenko as being elegant and impish (just my opinion, feel free to disagree).
TT is a master in recognizing a skater's personnality, she is able to choreograph masterpieces according to what she sees in her students. Her programs made Yags win a lot of titles - but don't forget that he won the first "despite those odd "Mishin" choreographies" (as you put it ) back in 1998.
If this theory about Plush winning only because of his natural talent and in spite of Mishin choreographies (remember he is only the coach) was true, then Plush would be the first Mishin student ever to win a World Championship. Which is not the case, far from that.

Viktoria Volchkova could benefit from some decent choreography. Actually, she needs an entire makeover: hair, costume, choreography, personality on the ice.

Oh, Mike, Mike... Your wife's choreography is a snoozathon! You went so far as to change coaches... Now it's time to REALLY commit to freshness: Take a page out of Michelle's book and go in a totally new direction with totally different people!

Of course, I would NOT want to be in his shoes when he drops that little bombshell on the mother of his children! :D

Who is more naturally talented?

>But many people say Plushenko is still great despite those odd "Mishin" choreographies and Yagudin is just great because of Tarasovas masterful, "matching" choreographies, which means Plushenko is truly natural talented, Yagudin not?>

I think they both are extremely talented by nature, but in slight different ways.

Plushy is a little more gifted with his jumps. His technique is more pure with great landing positions. He also pushes the tech envelop. Alexie has been playing catch up in the last 2 seasons. He sometimes fights his landing positions and drops his back, which annoys Mr. Button to no end

OTOH, I think Alexie is a little more artistic. He is more emotional and sensitive to the music. And his out-going personality allows him to show it on the ice. Great choregraphies are critical, but they can only take you so far. You have to have the artistry in your heart to express it.

I also think Alexie's body movement is more coordinated. Even in the Mishin era, I never found his arm movements distracting. With his quick feet and fluid edges, he made the odd choreography look natural. I do find Plushy's arms dis-integrated from the rest of body. And he's been working on his straight line footwork for 2 seasons, but still fights the edges sometime and his upper body doesn't seem to go very well with his legs.

I've always wondered what would happen had Alexie stayed with Mishin while Plushy left for TT. Will we get as good a jumper out of Alexie and as good an artist out of Plushy?

Originally posted by Summer of Love But many people say Plushenko is still great despite those odd "Mishin" choreographies and Yagudin is just great because of Tarasovas masterful, "matching" choreographies, which means Plushenko is truly natural talented, Yagudin not?

IMHO even the best choreographies of the world simply don't work if the skater isn't in the position to make them alive. And Yags makes them alive, in a way and manner only he is capable of. Morozov for example has only to thank Yags for the fact he's that much en vogue right now. Since M. made this huge sell-out of his ideas and numerous Yagudin-wannabe's are around it's oh-so-obvious: Some may copy some yagudinish footwork and movements pretty nice, but they'll learn soon enough: One cannot copy Yags' charisma and unbelievable presence on ice. "Not really talented"?? Puh-lease!

ITA Germanice. Any choreographer will say that their work is not really on display until they find a dancer/skater with talent, charisma, and style to light it up.

That's why Plushenko fits the bill for this thread IMO. Everytime I watch him, I feel like I'm seeing a great skater through a so-so choreograhy filter. His 'it' factor shines through, but could be so much more brilliant if his choreography (and costumes and hair for that matter) were up to par with his talent.

Originally posted by Germanice IMHO even the best choreographies of the world simply don't work if the skater isn't in the position to make them alive. And Yags makes them alive, in a way and manner only he is capable of. Morozov for example has only to thank Yags for the fact he's that much en vogue right now. Since M. made this huge sell-out of his ideas and numerous Yagudin-wannabe's are around it's oh-so-obvious: Some may copy some yagudinish footwork and movements pretty nice, but they'll learn soon enough: One cannot copy Yags' charisma and unbelievable presence on ice. "Not really talented"?? Puh-lease!

Anke

AHMEN GERMANICE. You get it. Though, Not to turn this into another Yags/Plush thread. It is turning into that anyways. The point I was making before, was that Despite Plushes odd programs he is a talented enough skater to pull them off & win with those. Other skaters outside of he & alexei would not be able to pull if off.

ALSO, Mishin maybe the Coach But it is his FINAL word on the program. Don't think otherwise. To have 3 top skaters with Different styles & personalities all have the same types of program under him. He calls the shots regardless of what anyone says. & I agree with what others say. Plush lands his jumps better ( no low back, I cringe when alexei dose that) & sorry the fact that footwork may be faster & a little doesn't make it better. The Timing in the program & what is represents in the program is what I belive makes the program either Better or not. The Music to his straight Line footwork(Though simple. It was Perfect.) The same thing could be said for the Circular(sp) footwork in Winter that is the start of everything. Perftect timing, Positions, edges, Different directions. Remeber, FLASH doesn't mean better.

As for TT bringing out what is there but hidden. That I agree with. But, if is not in you. There is then nothing to bring out. Alexei's passion was there. But, forced into hiding with his old coach. Jumping was the key. Nothing Passionate. But, regardless even with those old programs. It was his Talent that made him win. He did win a World title under mishin. But everything improved 100% when he made his move. ['