A concrete truth about health insurance

This is a concrete truth/example about health insurance which is informative and not debatable.

I have a company that employs 24 people, average salary is $17/hr, highest is $30/hr, no one make less than $40k per year with bonus, and a high of $105k on a high school education.. Ages 18-35, my starting wage for entry level is $10.hr.

I offered full health insurance to all 24 during open enrollment with United Heatlhcare. All they had to pay was $60 of the $400/employee/month premium. Not one person signed up. It would have cost them less than 50c hour. So I asked how many would want the insurance is i paid for it all. Guess what? All 24 signed up for it. So now I am paying almost $10000/month for a benefit no one REALLY wants.

Spare me the bullshit about health insurance as a mortal right. People only want it if it is dead free. All your bullshit anecdotal stories pale next to a clear indisputable case of what real young people want in the real world.

BTW they also do not want a 401K retirement if they have to pay even a nickel for it. I asked. They only want it if i pay the entire amount.

Gold Member

i see this everyday..been an agent doing same for nearly 30 yrs...FREE is the main word these days...mandatory tax to pay for healthcare is as i see it the only way around this problem...as bad as we hear the CANADIAN system sounds, it surely is better than no health ins at all.....and the real bite is the cost...i am 53...spouse is 57...i pay 1400 month...out of my pocket for health ins...i am for universal health care...just make it fair

We all seem to forget that there's other reasons to reject a health plan offered by an employer. Many people need coverage on specific medications and treatments for precise medical conditions, and some of these expensive treatments are NOT COVERED. I know a few people who are either diabetic or HIV positive and work full time jobs, who say they get better coverage from a different source because they at least cover their meds. If they took their employer's coverage, they would have to pay more for their stuff! Others may also be enrolled in another plan. It's not unheard of for some young adults to be still covered under family plans because they still live at home, or go to college where the parents pay for the majority of their things.

It doesn't matter if you're paying 50 cents a day for health coverage if the insurance doesn't take care of your personal needs. Of course, this kind of rational thinking is never needed to come out with a more reasonable conclusion. We find a few deadbeats in the system and we now judge an entire country based on their responses.

We all seem to forget that there's other reasons to reject a health plan offered by an employer. Many people need coverage on specific medications and treatments for precise medical conditions, and some of these expensive treatments are NOT COVERED. I know a few people who are either diabetic or HIV positive and work full time jobs, who say they get better coverage from a different source because they at least cover their meds. If they took their employer's coverage, they would have to pay more for their stuff! Others may also be enrolled in another plan. It's not unheard of for some young adults to be still covered under family plans because they still live at home, or go to college where the parents pay for the majority of their things.

It doesn't matter if you're paying 50 cents a day for health coverage if the insurance doesn't take care of your personal needs. Of course, this kind of rational thinking is never needed to come out with a more reasonable conclusion. We find a few deadbeats in the system and we now judge an entire country based on their responses.

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You really don't get it. Once it was free, they all took it. There were no restricitions, open enrollment. 24 employees, so we have a rather large statistical pool.They aren't in college or at home. They make a solid living wage. Its an excellent plan, its the plan I have and pay $1400/month for.

Like every liberal out there you are an apologist for foolish personal behavior. For petes sake, make people be responsible.

Gold Member

Sounds to me like the bulk of your employees are either stupid, under 30, or have no illnesses which require health insurance. Well of course they want it for free! Duh! Most employers don't give that as an option. If you insisted they had to pay the $60 a month would they have quit? I doubt it.

Sounds to me like the bulk of your employees are either stupid, under 30, or have no illnesses which require health insurance. Well of course they want it for free! Duh! Most employers don't give that as an option. If you insisted they had to pay the $60 a month would they have quit? I doubt it.

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I think we can use them as a representative example of high school educated people under the age of 40. Most of my workers are black or Hispanic. This bullshit about health care being a god given right, rather than an earned priviledge, is nonsense, they do not see the value in it. They do not see the value in the 401k either. And that is a 1:4 ratio, meaning I pay $4 to their one. Its like earning 80% right off the bat.

Understand this, the HC plan is the EXACT plan I pay $1400/month. Due to the way these insurance plans are written, I have to pay more as what is termed a highly compensated and older individual.

Health care is a fucking smoke screen for liberal bullshit. BTW go to the United Healthcare website and see the 3 options available in these small group plans. They can pick any of them and the cost was still the same. I am GIVING them the cheapest cuz they just don't care.

You really don't get it. Once it was free, they all took it. There were no restricitions, open enrollment. 24 employees, so we have a rather large statistical pool.They aren't in college or at home. They make a solid living wage. Its an excellent plan, its the plan I have and pay $1400/month for.

Like every liberal out there you are an apologist for foolish personal behavior. For petes sake, make people be responsible.

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Wow... since when is being objective and looking at an argument from different angles being apologetic and foolish? Is this what political arguments have come to? LOL!!!!

Just because it's a plan you can deal with doesn't mean that EVERYONE should be able to use. I know MANY people who can't afford $16,800 a year on health coverage (going by your figure of $1400/month) even on a $40K salary. Instead of using any personal or political bias, let's use MATH to explain.

They're already down to $35,613.75 a year just on the first major deduction. Now, we factor the second half of this tax equation, or 25% of $8,150. Which means another $2.037.50 is taken out of their checks yearly for Federal Tax. Already, this "well off individual" who should be able to afford your $1400/month plan has lost $6.423.75 of their wages to taxes. That doesn&#8217;t even include State Tax, Social Security, FICA or whatever other tax dollars that disappears from their daily, survival income. For the sake of this argument, let&#8217;s bypass this. That leaves them only $33,567.26 a year.

Now your employees need a place to live. Factor in rent, which can range anywhere from $500-$3000 a month these days depending on where you live. I don't think every city or town has rents that are as outrageous as New York or Boston (the two most expensive cities in America), so we'll say that their rent per month is $1250. That's another $15,000 a year out of their pay, bringing them down to $18,567,26 a year.

Now factor in travel expenses. I know people who have to spend TONS of money a day going back and forth via public transportation. But let's say that a typical day is $8 for a bus and a train to and from work. That's another $2,080 a year... and that's being nice. If they have to drive to work, with current prices it may be even higher. Of course, I haven&#8217;t factored in any other travel expenses for any other miscellaneous reason because these people shouldn&#8217;t&#8217; even be leaving their houses unless they&#8217;re going to work. :biggrin:

Now we're down to $16,487.26. As you can see, at this point they couldn&#8217;t even afford the rate you&#8217;re currently paying for health insurance! So, you create a package which in reality costs $4800 a year ($400/month). Making it so that they only have to pay $60 a month is a nice gesture, so they would only have to pay $720 a year. Now we&#8217;re at $15,767.26. Everything sounds good on paper&#8230; BUT, there&#8217;s other small things to worry about like food, phone bills, heating bills, gas, electricity, laundry, etc... you know, the things necessary to live day to day.

We can continue to average out these things, but you can already see how their income is VERY limited. You have no idea what your employees could be paying for these things. But if we average out the remainder of this person&#8217;s $40K/year salary, you&#8217;ll see that they&#8217;ll have only $1313.93/month left to take care of them, plus leave some money to try and save for a rainy day. Can you take care of all your bills and remaining necessities per month on this amount? Some people can&#8217;t, and it doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean they&#8217;re living out of their means. Maybe these people ARE being as responsible about their money as they can be and you don't realize, or more likely, just outright REFUSE to believe it.

Also, people would be fools not to take a free plan if it they didn't have any health coverage to begin with. Don't get mad that your employees decided to take it. You'd do the same thing if your employer did it for you. If you didn't want to endure the extra expense, you should have never offered the free plan. I know that I don't get a free plan from my job, and right now I make considerably less than $40K a year.

And like I told many people on this board... calling me "liberal" is not an insult. I proudly wear the title. If it means being open minded and having the ability to give a REAL analysis on situations instead of jumping to some hasty conclusion based on your own ignorance and blind perceptions of the American Dream, then gladly call me a liberal. Damn it, call me a fuckin' liberal all day and night if it makes you feel happy. All I know is that I'm not one of your employees and I can already understand why they did what they did. If YOU can't, and you have to supervise them everyday, then I don't know what to tell you.

Wow... since when is being objective and looking at an argument from different angles being apologetic and foolish? Is this what political arguments have come to? LOL!!!!

Just because it's a plan you can deal with doesn't mean that EVERYONE should be able to use. I know MANY people who can't afford $16,800 a year on health coverage (going by your figure of $1400/month) even on a $40K salary. Instead of using any personal or political bias, let's use MATH to explain.

They're already down to $35,613.75 a year just on the first major deduction. Now, we factor the second half of this tax equation, or 25% of $8,150. Which means another $2.037.50 is taken out of their checks yearly for Federal Tax. Already, this "well off individual" who should be able to afford your $1400/month plan has lost $6.423.75 of their wages to taxes. That doesnt even include State Tax, Social Security, FICA or whatever other tax dollars that disappears from their daily, survival income. For the sake of this argument, lets bypass this. That leaves them only $33,567.26 a year.

Now your employees need a place to live. Factor in rent, which can range anywhere from $500-$3000 a month these days depending on where you live. I don't think every city or town has rents that are as outrageous as New York or Boston (the two most expensive cities in America), so we'll say that their rent per month is $1250. That's another $15,000 a year out of their pay, bringing them down to $18,567,26 a year.

Now factor in travel expenses. I know people who have to spend TONS of money a day going back and forth via public transportation. But let's say that a typical day is $8 for a bus and a train to and from work. That's another $2,080 a year... and that's being nice. If they have to drive to work, with current prices it may be even higher. Of course, I havent factored in any other travel expenses for any other miscellaneous reason because these people shouldnt even be leaving their houses unless theyre going to work. :biggrin:

Now we're down to $16,487.26. As you can see, at this point they couldnt even afford the rate youre currently paying for health insurance! So, you create a package which in reality costs $4800 a year ($400/month). Making it so that they only have to pay $60 a month is a nice gesture, so they would only have to pay $720 a year. Now were at $15,767.26. Everything sounds good on paper BUT, theres other small things to worry about like food, phone bills, heating bills, gas, electricity, laundry, etc... you know, the things necessary to live day to day.

We can continue to average out these things, but you can already see how their income is VERY limited. You have no idea what your employees could be paying for these things. But if we average out the remainder of this persons $40K/year salary, youll see that theyll have only $1313.93/month left to take care of them, plus leave some money to try and save for a rainy day. Can you take care of all your bills and remaining necessities per month on this amount? Some people cant, and it doesnt necessarily mean theyre living out of their means. Maybe these people ARE being as responsible about their money as they can be and you don't realize, or more likely, just outright REFUSE to believe it.

Also, people would be fools not to take a free plan if it they didn't have any health coverage to begin with. Don't get mad that your employees decided to take it. You'd do the same thing if your employer did it for you. If you didn't want to endure the extra expense, you should have never offered the free plan. I know that I don't get a free plan from my job, and right now I make considerably less than $40K a year.

And like I told many people on this board... calling me "liberal" is not an insult. I proudly wear the title. If it means being open minded and having the ability to give a REAL analysis on situations instead of jumping to some hasty conclusion based on your own ignorance and blind perceptions of the American Dream, then gladly call me a liberal. Damn it, call me a fuckin' liberal all day and night if it makes you feel happy. All I know is that I'm not one of your employees and I can already understand why they did what they did. If YOU can't, and you have to supervise them everyday, then I don't know what to tell you.

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You still aren't getting it. They had to pay $720/year for total healthcare coverage. Thats it. I would have and do pay the rest Most of my staff makes well over $40k.

My point is that health care is NOT the big issue most young people care about. Its a liberal smokescreen. If they saw value in it, $720 for people making $75K seems like a really good deal. An Iphone costs $400. They do have those. Thats important to them. NOT health care.

Gold Member

My point is that health care is NOT the big issue most young people care about. Its a liberal smokescreen.

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If you weren't such a conservative puke, then you might understand that the health insurance gig isn't about people that you pay $10/hr in your company. It's to get insurance on the children of these retarded asses who don't provide for their kids. Kids DO get sick... and really sick. Both of mine had been in hospitals 2-3 times each before they were 5.

Either way, I'm against federalized health care. If anything, its a state's rights issue.

You still aren't getting it. They had to pay $720/year for total healthcare coverage. Thats it. I would have and do pay the rest Most of my staff makes well over $40k.

My point is that health care is NOT the big issue most young people care about. Its a liberal smokescreen. If they saw value in it, $720 for people making $75K seems like a really good deal. An Iphone costs $400. They do have those. Thats important to them. NOT health care.

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Please look at ALL of my calculations in my sample.
I took into consideration the $720/yr you offered for health coverage. But depending on many other factors beyond personal wants and luxuries, even this could be stressful. It's hard to understand that unless you're willing to put on their shoes and walk in them for a while. I'm looking at this from my shoes... a person that used to make $60K/year but now has to settle for a job for almost 60% less for 4+ years because of a collapsing financial and job market. I don't understand how people who are closer to the top of your payroll would turn down $720/month for health care. That I do agree with you on. But from my angle I can see why those who are making $40K may have some trouble.

And honestly, I don't think they're choosing an iPhone over health care. That's being a little hasty, considering what an iPhone can do a person's everyday routine. But I digress... :biggrin1:

Gold Member

I think you guys are misconstruing wanting it with having to pay for it. If you look at the deal United Healthcare and other HMO's offer, that $ 60/month premium doesn't cover much. They've been raising co-pays regularly, so just to walk in to the doctor, that's going to run pretty good money right there. Take a dental plan, the plan has a ceiling on it and if you go twice a year, you've already burned thru that benefit pretty much. Get a root canal, is that even covered, what about a crown ? So healthier employees, they aren't going to use the benefit. Also going to the doctor, if it happens during the work week, you have to burn, sick time, PTO/vacation or whatever to get gouged.

The very nature of the co-pay discourages going to a doctor, so it works. UNH gets it premium dollars, the Network doctors get their capitation payment for not having to see you and when they do, they plan covers as little as possible and before you know it, OOP costs to the patient becomes as bad as being uninsured because the plans are underinsurance. Trust me, the HMO's will fix their plans to eliminate the most costly procedures and still raise the premiums.

Same goes with a 401-K, $ 60 a month for the healthcare, that's probably their budget for retirement. People want these benefits, but lets face it, the extra that is over and above is hard. Some may not understand that pre tax investing or costs, they wind up getting more benefits while their paycheck goes a little farther. But when gas has gone up $ 1+/gallon, people naturally tighten their belts, look for raises and other things that recoupe that. Nobody wants to hear $ 60 more out of their paycheck for healthcare they rarely use when the co-pays are punishing.

I know it doesn't make sense sometimes, but someone that is healthier really doesn't see the need for that benefit if it's an additional cost that is never used ?

Please look at ALL of my calculations in my sample.
I took into consideration the $720/yr you offered for health coverage. But depending on many other factors beyond personal wants and luxuries, even this could be stressful. It's hard to understand that unless you're willing to put on their shoes and walk in them for a while. I'm looking at this from my shoes... a person that used to make $60K/year but now has to settle for a job for almost 60% less for 4+ years because of a collapsing financial and job market. I don't understand how people who are closer to the top of your payroll would turn down $720/month for health care. That I do agree with you on. But from my angle I can see why those who are making $40K may have some trouble.

And honestly, I don't think they're choosing an iPhone over health care. That's being a little hasty, considering what an iPhone can do a person's everyday routine. But I digress... :biggrin1:

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Now that is a little clearer. They all turned it down. Thats the whole premise to my post. It just is not the big deal the Democrats are making it. Buying health insurance is insuring yourself against risk. Its a prudent way to protect your future. Its what a smart person will do. Smart peole try hard to minimize their risk of catastrophic loss. If it truly were important they would buy it. but its only important when you need it. Young people do not see the benefit to it, or worse yet, they EXPECT THE CHARITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO BAIL THEM OUT FOR THEIR SHORT SIGHTED DECISONS AND THE DEMOCRATS HAPPILY WILL PANDER TO THE MASSES BAD DECISIONS IN ORDER TO GET ELECTED.

This also holds true tho for big business running hat in hand for government bail outs for THEIR bad decisions like what is occuring now. The minute private business turns its risk over to public trough, the leaders of that business should go to prison or lose everything they ever earned.

I think you guys are misconstruing wanting it with having to pay for it. If you look at the deal United Healthcare and other HMO's offer, that $ 60/month premium doesn't cover much. They've been raising co-pays regularly, so just to walk in to the doctor, that's going to run pretty good money right there. Take a dental plan, the plan has a ceiling on it and if you go twice a year, you've already burned thru that benefit pretty much. Get a root canal, is that even covered, what about a crown ? So healthier employees, they aren't going to use the benefit. Also going to the doctor, if it happens during the work week, you have to burn, sick time, PTO/vacation or whatever to get gouged.

The very nature of the co-pay discourages going to a doctor, so it works. UNH gets it premium dollars, the Network doctors get their capitation payment for not having to see you and when they do, they plan covers as little as possible and before you know it, OOP costs to the patient becomes as bad as being uninsured because the plans are underinsurance. Trust me, the HMO's will fix their plans to eliminate the most costly procedures and still raise the premiums.

Same goes with a 401-K, $ 60 a month for the healthcare, that's probably their budget for retirement. People want these benefits, but lets face it, the extra that is over and above is hard. Some may not understand that pre tax investing or costs, they wind up getting more benefits while their paycheck goes a little farther. But when gas has gone up $ 1+/gallon, people naturally tighten their belts, look for raises and other things that recoupe that. Nobody wants to hear $ 60 more out of their paycheck for healthcare they rarely use when the co-pays are punishing.

I know it doesn't make sense sometimes, but someone that is healthier really doesn't see the need for that benefit if it's an additional cost that is never used ?

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Wrong. It was an indemnity plan and the co pay was $20. Look it up. Its MY health policy, the one I pay $1400 for. Its a terrific policy. Visits to an urgent care were only $40 for ANY treatment. And opting out is rather not very Democraitic in that you are choosing your own self interst over the interest of the masses. We NEED the healthy in the plan to help with the sick.

Dental benefits are NOT insurance. You do not understand. Insurance helps when you are faced with expensive treatments. Dental benefits go away with expensive treatments. DI is exactly the opposite.

and actually what you are saying is people only want health insurance when they are sick. It can't work that way. They need to be in the game, have skin on the line from day one to make it truly fair.

I love you liberals. You will make any excuse for people's foolish decisions.

Gold Member

Are any of your employees' married or partnered? Their spouse/partner may have had good insurance and were probably paying for it but since you're offering it for free, they've opted to drop the spouse/partner's insurance and take your offer.