Training is an activity that has many approaches. Many paths lead up the mountain. Each one you follow may show you something not found on another. There is no right way or wrong way there is only the way, training! Training is where the discoveries are made.

No one knows all there is about combat as fighting is made up on many skill sets. We learn them piece meal a wee bit at a time. Gradually we develop some skills in various skill sets that may assist us in facing violence. Rick Wilson calls this process the micro skill set development and I agree we learn bit by bit and put the pieces together or access them as needed once they are ingrained.

So where does pressure testing occur in this process? Any where you wish, it's a feedback tool. Is sparring, sport testing real fighting...absolutely not! Will you benefit from the process. Yes! Is it real fighting no!

All training and all testing comes with an agreement. A rule set of what is okay and what is not. Every training drill is also bound with an agreement between the participants. The goal is to learn. the method is to learn from each other not to destroy each other.

Pressure testing and training is limited it's bound by rules to keep the participants safe. Skills are developed in controlled venues. Training is not real fighting, it's not ninja death matches.

Some would claim that these controlled venues are not real fights. They would be correct. Some others would claim that because these matches are not real they would be of no value. In this they would be wrong. Much is learned and developed within these controlled venues.

The assumption that a Kyokushin fight is of no value in skill development because there is no face punching is flawed. One can trained bound by the rule set of the drill, one can also step out of the drill and step things up. George Saint Pierre has proven over and over that Kyokushin practitioners can be very effective at striking the head with fists.

The limitations in training keep us safe; we do not have to endure devastating injuries in order to learn. One of the benefits of pressure testing is we discover a few of our short comings. We can then revisit/restructure our training to address these short comings. This to me is the real value of sport venues it provides the student with very good feedback as to their limitations.

For me training is a numbers game. I train for likely outcomes, likely attacks. If a person thinks that they can knock me down with a body shot great.because as they throw the punch I will be attacking their exposed head.

I've done about 5 years of Jiu Jitsu, and closer to 10 in Aiki.and my Ukemi ( breakfalls ) are pretty good, I can roll with my hands in my pockets or my arms folded. ( although I'm less prone to try it now with the artificial hip) I can tell you breakfalls on tarmac or concrete are a whole different ball game

Again, as Laird and Stryke point out, the essence of tournament fighting under any rules, will quickly show the fighter what he is made of.

The skill sets foundation is hard to dispute. Sport fighting, among other things, teaches how to move and engage under adrenaline, as well as a host of other useful tactics such as 'luring distance' to pre-empt attacks.

It will also very quickly test your overall body conditioning, such as the hardness of your shins to cut down the opponent's legs, and your ability to take destructive shin kicks to your legs or other body parts.

Kyokushin karate is hard core training and their tournament rules involve heavy body battering. They condition their hands for bare handed punching, but because of the way they 'sport fight' head shots are not allowed because of serious injuries both to the opponent and themselves like breaking their hands and cutting their hands on opponents' teeth. This does not mean they can't punch you in the face if they want to, as Laird showed so well.

And let me make this point clear…on this forum…I will not allow Kyokushin or any other style to be criticized for any reason…we went through this garbage a few years back, with some of the jokers on this forum criticizing Uechi Ryu, but never jumping into the ring to face a Uechi fighter.

I know we have some Kyokushin practitioners looking at this forum, as we have had in the past, and I don't want them to think we are knocking their style.

It is a no brainer to realize that with the constant battering, which also includes full power kicks to the head, the Kyokushin fighter achieves pain thresholds that wouldn't be quickly negated by taking some punch to the face.The reason why they do so well against Muay Thai fighters.

I have seen this argument before…and here is what a KK practitioner wrote in rebuttal

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Walk to the nearest Mas Oyama dojo, and challenge them to a sparring match that includes punches to the face. They will be happy to oblige.

Not many challengers would have the threshold of pain necessary to fight one of those KK fighters.

Besides, we have been through this over and over, regarding face/head punches, with no padding/gloves etc.

One of my two students_ former heavy weight boxers_broke his right hand seven times in street fights.

Ray I also agree with keeping the tool box small and practical. No purpose learning ridiculous techniques that will rarely land. I remember seeing a guy attempt a high spinning kick in a bar. it don't go well for him. His knee came up under a post mounted table and he went down . He got the boots in the face as he lay under the table. Technique worked well in the dojo but didn't work in a crowded bar on that day.

We also must be cognizant of the fact that as we age our bodies will decline and we may lose the ability to perform certain techniques. We should occasionally review whats in our tool box and decide if it still contains high percentage skills that we can perform effectively.

The body shot will stay in mine! Jim showed me the liver shot back in the seventies. If one understands the basics of boxing it's an easy shot to set up and it has devastating effect. I'll keep it cause I can throw it with ease, know when to throw it and know it's a fight ending blow.

To discount it because one believes they can simply ko the person throwing it is a bit of a reach. The best boxers in the world fall to this technique on a frequent basis. If the best fall to it I suspect us weekend warriors might too.

Anyhow we all are unique and will endevour to place that what which we believe in, in the war chest. I know Jimmy still believes in the liver shot, there is a reason his fighters train with Mickey Ward, he threw the best body shots in the game.

Here are some clips of liver shots. Sorry for the music, you can always turn off the speakers and just enjoy fighters dropping like stone. Head body body..or..body body head! Put it in your arsenal!

agree about the liver shot, it's one that I practise on Bob.and I also agree that our techniques change over time.as to knocking styles, I don't do that per se...but I have done a lot of different styles, and for me if I see weakness that I don't like well I change it, and make it more to my liking and I like to discuss weaknesses.....to eradicate them, and indeed strenghts to promote them.....and I like to distinguish what I do for pleasure and what I do as pure fighting..........I love playing with the nunchuks, but I wouldn't class them as a street weapon. I've just ordered a Balisong trainer.I love knives and I love seeing the bali flipped.but it is not knife fighting...so I'm just making a distinction.Me personnally there are things that I wouldn't have done if I'd known back in the day what I know now...I wouldn't have done kicks as much as I did.most of the kickers that I know of either have back or hip problems, and I know of people who stayed with Jiu jitsu who have terrible arthritis of the spine.......but I guess if you didn't have these injuries you'd have others

We also must be cognizant of the fact that as we age our bodies will decline and we may lose the ability to perform certain techniques. We should occasionally review whats in our tool box and decide if it still contains high percentage skills that we can perform effectively.

Yes, we all should keep this in mind. What, IMO, separates a martial artist from a fighter is that a MA should continue to train and seek to perfect what he can do and apply if needed. I think hard bunkai where one develops his own applications can make an older guy effective and able to defend himself. preferably the applications will be from kata which we practice thousands of times. Hard charging attacks are needed to make sure the bunkai will work in real life and the attacker should go all out to test the defender. I agree with Laird that there should be targets we have in mind, both in kata and bunkai, so that the move becomes hard wired.

Since getting a BOB I find that my go to moves involve hitting the bracial plexis nerve, the throat, and other parts of the head and neck with the forearm or elbow. Great possibilities are in seisan if we study. As I've aged I continue to find kata techniques that I can use pretty well. Naturally we can't go out and spar with headshots all the time. I've also found that sparring is less interesting than bunkai (scenario training for you non karate guys).

There's a difference between self defense and fighting. For me hard attacks which combine strikes,grappling, shoves etc., are the things I train to be ready for. Can't train it without some kind of agreement.

I am glad to see that we agree to disagree. Jim Maloney, who travels our way several times a year to have his pro-fighter wife keep on training with Mickey Ward, was over our dojo last week teaching his various body shots, also including the open hand body shots that are scary to look at.

Rabesa was there also, showing his 'brand' of open hand body shots that would drop a mule.

Another skill set you learn in competitive free fighting is the set up 'timing' and feigned attacks designed to draw defensive action away from an intended target so you can score. This works well also in real fights.

Another crucial key is that free sparring teaches you not only to face off to an opponent, but to improvise, something that may well save your life.

But …as Stryke said …you need to step into the ring to develop such skills sets.

This plus the 'serious scenario' bunkai training that Josann brings up, the constant daily limbs conditioning, and the development of pain threshold you can only achieve with a degree of 'body battering' is what is helpful in a street fight generally, as street fights will never play out as we imagine them in the dojo.

Ray

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as to knocking styles, I don't do that per se...but I have done a lot of different styles, and for me if I see weakness that I don't like well I change it, and make it more to my liking and I like to discuss weaknesses.

First…it is a matter of perspectives_ I also trained in Judo/break falls and Jiu jitsu, with some boxing when very young…but I am not a believer of practicing lots of styles, as they confuse the ingraining process as such undertaking will not be congruent with what the primal instincts your body will want to respond with _in a survival situation.

Second…if we are to discuss individual perceived 'weaknesses' …it is not wise to do so on an open karate forum by giving the perception of knocking styles or practitioners , as this is the fastest way to make enemies instead of friends and even a quicker way to be shown the door.

In the past_ we have been through this kind of crap with some deluded individuals on this forum and I will not allow it ever again.

Laird is very wise to mention 'weekend warriors' …something to think about to keep all of us sober, when discussing violence.

And this is perfect

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Anyhow we all are unique and will endeavor to place that what which we believe in, in the war chest.

Since it is an activity that revolves around facing unpredictable vectors of force and directions against unknown opponents [tournament fighting] you will have to deal with issues of endurance, strength _flexibility, balance, and your true presupposed physical conditioning_ in ways you may well be not exposed to in your training.

Why do you think there is the full contact All Okinawa yearly tournament?

And this kind of pressure will also help you in stringing the necessary techniques together into logical sequence to achieve stoppage of the opponent, as well as helping in the endless nuances of movement.

But you have got to step into the ring.

Laird proved these concepts in abundance_once…by having his boys step into the ring…

And I know Stryke will have much to discuss here with his extensive experience in full contact KO bouts.

One of the guys I work with has been investing a portion of his tips into folders for the past seven years. He's acquired a collection worth $36,000. He doesn't appear to have stopped buying yet.

So every day I get to partake in a bit of show and tell. Now and then he just gives me a blade and tells me to keep it. I have to be careful what I say about blades on websites because the next day I get them handed to me. Latest one was the Utilitac II (Joe Pardue 1st production) I rather like it and it has become my EDC.

LairdIt's a northern thing.............you are either passionate about the shiny sharps or you are not.........I look at all avenues .chinese even, and good American blades. i make no distinctions.I just love steel

I understand. My friend is a Scot, he just can't keep his hands off of steel. He was a meat cutter by trade, so there is no such thing as sharp enough! He sharpens most of his blades on emery paper. He flat out refuses to cut meat for anyone but he has an addiction to blade steel that only can be fed not cured.

I probably have 50 fixed blades and 20 folders, still want everyone I touch, but I'm weening myself from the blade addiction by collecting firearms.

I agree Van, If a person wants to know who they are and where their weakness lay they only need to step into the ring, it's the best mirror in the world! If that person is serious about fixing their flaws they'll step back in from time to time for a progress report!

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