Campaign launched to halt Silver Hill scheme in Winchester

Councillor Kim Gottlieb says the scheme for homes and shops will be the “ruin of Winchester for evermore” and has urged the city council to think again.

Cllr Gottlieb, a member of the ruling Conservative group, told the Chronicle: “This scheme is fundamentally wrong. This is a fabulous opportunity we are blowing.”

He has produced 1,000 glossy booklets outlining his concerns over the revamp of the run-down area between the Friarsgate and The Broadway.

The architecture is dull and uninspiring, he says, and the mainly six and seven-storey building will loom over the city centre. “It will tower over even the Brooks which, from a design perspective, will look like a piece of classical architecture by comparison.

"The Silver Hill scheme will suck customers away from the High Street and is outdated. At a time when virtually every other high street is figuring how to survive years of onslaught by the growth of out-of-town retailing, covered malls and the internet, Winchester is promoting a scheme that will take the centre of gravity away from its own high street and emasculate it.”

Cllr Gottlieb, himself a developer and chartered surveyor, has launched a campaign now because the developer Henderson wishes to make changes to the plans that already have planning permission, including dropping the bus station and most of the affordable housing.

He said: “Because Henderson wants to make significant changes to the consented scheme, the council is in a strong position to negotiate. If it wills, the council can make all the changes that are needed to be made, to ensure that is important regeneration project is a success for the city. It is wrong to assume that it’s all too late and that the development cannot be changed.”

Cllr Gottlieb, who represents the Itchen Valley, has started a website and twitter feed to gain public support. The web address is: www.WinchesterDeservesBetter.com.

He wants to see a smaller scheme, more in line with the council’s own planning brief from 2003 which called for sympathetic regeneration of the area.

“Winchester shouldn’t be in the game of trying to compete with retailing in Southampton or Basingstoke. Retailing is not what Winchester is about. It is about heritage and culture and charm, and about being different from other cities.

“The city has so many good things going for it and the city would be much better off with a development principally based on the city’s heritage and culture, and with an architectural approach, that is aiming to win awards.”

Council leader Rob Humby said: “Cllr Gottlieb has a right to his opinion. I don’t think his views are shared by the majority of other councillors and outside bodies such as the Business Improvement District.

“He was a member of the reference group and had a chance to have input. A lot of its ideas came from him. His website does not make it clear that Silver Hill already has planning approval.”

Mr Humby said the council had taken legal advice, including a QC, that said the council had less room for manoeuvre with Henderson than Mr Gottlieb asserted. “There is a limit to the amount of changes we can make.”

There was due to be a private briefing yesterday (WED) for councillors with Henderson and Allies and Morrison, the architects. The cabinet on July 10 will discuss whether it will allow Henderson to put in an amended application.

Mr Humby added: “The new planning application will be for the planning committee. Everyone will have a chance to have their input. It is wrong to say we have been rushing it. It has been going for 17 years now. To make changes now could set things back years and years.”

That is disputed by Cllr Gottlieb who says a new scheme could be progressed quickly.

Comments

wintondweller
7:02pm Thu 19 Jun 14

In 2003 Winchester City council entered into an agreement with Thornfield Properties without inviting tenders from other developers. Thornfield being in liquidation, our Council has now chosen Henderson Global Investors who have come up with a scheme they say is an improvement in providing 'family' accommodation rather than Thornfield's preponderance of single-occupant dwellings. What family will want to live in buildings 6 or 7 storeys high with no play space.....Don't be tricked by Henderson's glossy plans where 'green spaces' are not leafy quadrangles but merely roof 'carpet' for pent-houses.
Think of cities you admire - an example might be Strasbourg which makes great use of its river - Henderson haven't bothered to make a feature of our own lovely Itchen. Anyone who loves Winchester - ancient capital with its world-famous cathedral - knows we deserve much better than this anodyne, off-the-peg development which is seriously out of proportion and would dwarf the city's predominantly 2 or 3 storey buildings.

In 2003 Winchester City council entered into an agreement with Thornfield Properties without inviting tenders from other developers. Thornfield being in liquidation, our Council has now chosen Henderson Global Investors who have come up with a scheme they say is an improvement in providing 'family' accommodation rather than Thornfield's preponderance of single-occupant dwellings. What family will want to live in buildings 6 or 7 storeys high with no play space.....Don't be tricked by Henderson's glossy plans where 'green spaces' are not leafy quadrangles but merely roof 'carpet' for pent-houses.
Think of cities you admire - an example might be Strasbourg which makes great use of its river - Henderson haven't bothered to make a feature of our own lovely Itchen. Anyone who loves Winchester - ancient capital with its world-famous cathedral - knows we deserve much better than this anodyne, off-the-peg development which is seriously out of proportion and would dwarf the city's predominantly 2 or 3 storey buildings.wintondweller

In 2003 Winchester City council entered into an agreement with Thornfield Properties without inviting tenders from other developers. Thornfield being in liquidation, our Council has now chosen Henderson Global Investors who have come up with a scheme they say is an improvement in providing 'family' accommodation rather than Thornfield's preponderance of single-occupant dwellings. What family will want to live in buildings 6 or 7 storeys high with no play space.....Don't be tricked by Henderson's glossy plans where 'green spaces' are not leafy quadrangles but merely roof 'carpet' for pent-houses.
Think of cities you admire - an example might be Strasbourg which makes great use of its river - Henderson haven't bothered to make a feature of our own lovely Itchen. Anyone who loves Winchester - ancient capital with its world-famous cathedral - knows we deserve much better than this anodyne, off-the-peg development which is seriously out of proportion and would dwarf the city's predominantly 2 or 3 storey buildings.

Score: 21

wheresthemoneygone
12:22am Fri 20 Jun 14

Didn't the Council says that they wanted more affordable homes, and don't they still harp on about it, and now HENDERSON GLOBAL plan drop reduce the numbers of affordable housing?And then WCC say they can do diddly-squat about it. Aren't WCC just airy portals spewing smoke-screen tripe - just massive hypocrisy and deception - when all they really want is to flog of any available space to their developer chums, slap themselves on the back and sit back on their lardy posteriors smoking a big cigar? And we pay for this...

Didn't the Council says that they wanted more affordable homes, and don't they still harp on about it, and now HENDERSON GLOBAL plan drop reduce the numbers of affordable housing?And then WCC say they can do diddly-squat about it. Aren't WCC just airy portals spewing smoke-screen tripe - just massive hypocrisy and deception - when all they really want is to flog of any available space to their developer chums, slap themselves on the back and sit back on their lardy posteriors smoking a big cigar? And we pay for this...wheresthemoneygone

Didn't the Council says that they wanted more affordable homes, and don't they still harp on about it, and now HENDERSON GLOBAL plan drop reduce the numbers of affordable housing?And then WCC say they can do diddly-squat about it. Aren't WCC just airy portals spewing smoke-screen tripe - just massive hypocrisy and deception - when all they really want is to flog of any available space to their developer chums, slap themselves on the back and sit back on their lardy posteriors smoking a big cigar? And we pay for this...

Score: 11

Whiteshute
8:41am Thu 19 Jun 14

Cllr Gottlieb is right to ask for the Silver Hill development to be halted. Winchester City Council have been completely duped by Henderson Clobal Investors (the name says everything! .Retail has changed in the last decade and another white elephant is Winchester should be aviaded at all costs. The ruling Conservative Group have ben very lax in letting matters get so far, it should have been quashed at the outset, nobody in Winchester wants it. So stop Henerson marauders now before it is too late.

Cllr Gottlieb is right to ask for the Silver Hill development to be halted. Winchester City Council have been completely duped by Henderson Clobal Investors (the name says everything! .Retail has changed in the last decade and another white elephant is Winchester should be aviaded at all costs. The ruling Conservative Group have ben very lax in letting matters get so far, it should have been quashed at the outset, nobody in Winchester wants it. So stop Henerson marauders now before it is too late.Whiteshute

Cllr Gottlieb is right to ask for the Silver Hill development to be halted. Winchester City Council have been completely duped by Henderson Clobal Investors (the name says everything! .Retail has changed in the last decade and another white elephant is Winchester should be aviaded at all costs. The ruling Conservative Group have ben very lax in letting matters get so far, it should have been quashed at the outset, nobody in Winchester wants it. So stop Henerson marauders now before it is too late.

Score: 33

Willow70
11:29am Thu 19 Jun 14

This scheme will ruin the centre of our wonderful city, both visually through overshadowing it with a looming, intimidating structure, and through the fact that the commercial success of the scheme must depend upon the failure of our high street.
To say that it should go ahead because it has taken so long to plan is a ridiculous argument, regeneration is needed, but not until the plan is right – it has taken much more than 17 years for Winchester to become the city it is, and the current plan would ruin it forever.

This scheme will ruin the centre of our wonderful city, both visually through overshadowing it with a looming, intimidating structure, and through the fact that the commercial success of the scheme must depend upon the failure of our high street.
To say that it should go ahead because it has taken so long to plan is a ridiculous argument, regeneration is needed, but not until the plan is right – it has taken much more than 17 years for Winchester to become the city it is, and the current plan would ruin it forever.Willow70

This scheme will ruin the centre of our wonderful city, both visually through overshadowing it with a looming, intimidating structure, and through the fact that the commercial success of the scheme must depend upon the failure of our high street.
To say that it should go ahead because it has taken so long to plan is a ridiculous argument, regeneration is needed, but not until the plan is right – it has taken much more than 17 years for Winchester to become the city it is, and the current plan would ruin it forever.

Score: 21

peasant
9:28am Thu 19 Jun 14

I was under the impression building on flood plains was not advisable any longer. ____________________
_____________ Have the Environment Agency had any input into this scheme? I seem to remember they were recently heavily criticised for not halting enough building projects on flood plains, AFTER they were flooded of course!

I was under the impression building on flood plains was not advisable any longer. ____________________
_____________ Have the Environment Agency had any input into this scheme? I seem to remember they were recently heavily criticised for not halting enough building projects on flood plains, AFTER they were flooded of course!peasant

I was under the impression building on flood plains was not advisable any longer. ____________________
_____________ Have the Environment Agency had any input into this scheme? I seem to remember they were recently heavily criticised for not halting enough building projects on flood plains, AFTER they were flooded of course!

Score: 6

Lbell1
10:39am Thu 19 Jun 14

This scheme is just not good enough for the former capital of England. Just like the dreadful Brooks Centre this will be something Winchester regrets if built. So what if it has taken 15 years to get this far, take a few more years and get it right.

This scheme is just not good enough for the former capital of England. Just like the dreadful Brooks Centre this will be something Winchester regrets if built. So what if it has taken 15 years to get this far, take a few more years and get it right.Lbell1

This scheme is just not good enough for the former capital of England. Just like the dreadful Brooks Centre this will be something Winchester regrets if built. So what if it has taken 15 years to get this far, take a few more years and get it right.

Score: 28

rachelem
11:10am Thu 19 Jun 14

If this is the result of 17 years of planning as Cllr Humby asserts then the Silver Hill Scheme is a shameful and damning indictment of Winchester City Council. As far as I am aware the lack of a bus station and any affordable housing is a breach of the Section 106 and should mean that the scheme goes back to the planning drawing board, an opportunity for a total rethink and to produce something that is worthy of Winchester. This will be met from WCC with, what I feel, are strong arm scare mongering tactics of 'it will take another 10 years' so they can continue to push through a morally and economically bankrupt and ill thought out development at any cost. It the opportunity exists it must be stopped and re-booted. If not then it rather begs the question why? What are we, the tax payers and voters, not being told?

If this is the result of 17 years of planning as Cllr Humby asserts then the Silver Hill Scheme is a shameful and damning indictment of Winchester City Council. As far as I am aware the lack of a bus station and any affordable housing is a breach of the Section 106 and should mean that the scheme goes back to the planning drawing board, an opportunity for a total rethink and to produce something that is worthy of Winchester. This will be met from WCC with, what I feel, are strong arm scare mongering tactics of 'it will take another 10 years' so they can continue to push through a morally and economically bankrupt and ill thought out development at any cost. It the opportunity exists it must be stopped and re-booted. If not then it rather begs the question why? What are we, the tax payers and voters, not being told?rachelem

If this is the result of 17 years of planning as Cllr Humby asserts then the Silver Hill Scheme is a shameful and damning indictment of Winchester City Council. As far as I am aware the lack of a bus station and any affordable housing is a breach of the Section 106 and should mean that the scheme goes back to the planning drawing board, an opportunity for a total rethink and to produce something that is worthy of Winchester. This will be met from WCC with, what I feel, are strong arm scare mongering tactics of 'it will take another 10 years' so they can continue to push through a morally and economically bankrupt and ill thought out development at any cost. It the opportunity exists it must be stopped and re-booted. If not then it rather begs the question why? What are we, the tax payers and voters, not being told?

Score: 29

winch_lady
12:16pm Thu 19 Jun 14

For more information please go to
www.WinchesterDeserv
esBetter.com
Twitter @ Best4Winchester
Thank you

For more information please go to
www.WinchesterDeserv
esBetter.com
Twitter @ Best4Winchester
Thank you

Score: 6

Winchwills
2:52pm Thu 19 Jun 14

winch_lady wrote…

For more information please go to
www.WinchesterDeserv

esBetter.com
Twitter @ Best4Winchester
Thank you

Something really need to happen with the silver hill area, I'm sure everybody agrees. However, after such a long time between the original plans and before the regeneration project starts, the council has the oportunity to re access the current outdated plans and create an area more suited to Winchester and more so to the current retail market. Why not take it? In the grand scheme of things if time is all that it takes to get it right, we have been waiting for so long that a a little more delay won't make any difference.

[quote][p][bold]winch_lady[/bold] wrote:
For more information please go to
www.WinchesterDeserv
esBetter.com
Twitter @ Best4Winchester
Thank you[/p][/quote]Something really need to happen with the silver hill area, I'm sure everybody agrees. However, after such a long time between the original plans and before the regeneration project starts, the council has the oportunity to re access the current outdated plans and create an area more suited to Winchester and more so to the current retail market. Why not take it? In the grand scheme of things if time is all that it takes to get it right, we have been waiting for so long that a a little more delay won't make any difference.Winchwills

winch_lady wrote…

For more information please go to
www.WinchesterDeserv

esBetter.com
Twitter @ Best4Winchester
Thank you

Something really need to happen with the silver hill area, I'm sure everybody agrees. However, after such a long time between the original plans and before the regeneration project starts, the council has the oportunity to re access the current outdated plans and create an area more suited to Winchester and more so to the current retail market. Why not take it? In the grand scheme of things if time is all that it takes to get it right, we have been waiting for so long that a a little more delay won't make any difference.

Score: 12

caelumalbus
2:56pm Thu 19 Jun 14

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.caelumalbus

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.

Score: -17

Volde_mort
4:03pm Thu 19 Jun 14

If after a supposed 17 year process this dreary, destructive development is the best the council can come up with, it speaks volumes for the 'process'.

People by and large don't care about the process, they are just grateful to be getting a chance to look closely at this scheme for the first time because it has not been properly exposed before, and what they see today is truly dire.

If after a supposed 17 year process this dreary, destructive development is the best the council can come up with, it speaks volumes for the 'process'.
People by and large don't care about the process, they are just grateful to be getting a chance to look closely at this scheme for the first time because it has not been properly exposed before, and what they see today is truly dire.Volde_mort

If after a supposed 17 year process this dreary, destructive development is the best the council can come up with, it speaks volumes for the 'process'.

People by and large don't care about the process, they are just grateful to be getting a chance to look closely at this scheme for the first time because it has not been properly exposed before, and what they see today is truly dire.

Score: 17

uppercase
5:18pm Thu 19 Jun 14

Like many Winchester residents I welcome good modern development, and the Friarsgate area certainly needs improvement, but why should we accept this grim design just because it's been 17 years in the hatching?
It's too high, dwarfing surrounding buildings - and too stark. The trees and shrubs in the plans are at rooftop, not street level. Why is there no attractive landscaping?
And why increase the number of retail outlets so radically when Winchester already has too many empty shops - and the rise of online/out of town shopping means closures are likely to continue? Why is there no bus station close to the new amenities? And why will there be so little on-street parking? Shopkeepers say they benefit hugely from the current system of 30min or 1 hour parking.
The city of Bath has some wonderful modern development amongst the Georgian buildings. Surely Winchester deserves something similarly inspired to set off its medieval heritage - instead of the current depressing New Town design.
What, I wonder, happened to the comment forms filled in by those of us who attended the display of plans at the Guildhall recently? And why was this so poorly advertised? Is the council hoping for a quick 'done deal'?

Like many Winchester residents I welcome good modern development, and the Friarsgate area certainly needs improvement, but why should we accept this grim design just because it's been 17 years in the hatching?
It's too high, dwarfing surrounding buildings - and too stark. The trees and shrubs in the plans are at rooftop, not street level. Why is there no attractive landscaping?
And why increase the number of retail outlets so radically when Winchester already has too many empty shops - and the rise of online/out of town shopping means closures are likely to continue? Why is there no bus station close to the new amenities? And why will there be so little on-street parking? Shopkeepers say they benefit hugely from the current system of 30min or 1 hour parking.
The city of Bath has some wonderful modern development amongst the Georgian buildings. Surely Winchester deserves something similarly inspired to set off its medieval heritage - instead of the current depressing New Town design.
What, I wonder, happened to the comment forms filled in by those of us who attended the display of plans at the Guildhall recently? And why was this so poorly advertised? Is the council hoping for a quick 'done deal'?uppercase

Like many Winchester residents I welcome good modern development, and the Friarsgate area certainly needs improvement, but why should we accept this grim design just because it's been 17 years in the hatching?
It's too high, dwarfing surrounding buildings - and too stark. The trees and shrubs in the plans are at rooftop, not street level. Why is there no attractive landscaping?
And why increase the number of retail outlets so radically when Winchester already has too many empty shops - and the rise of online/out of town shopping means closures are likely to continue? Why is there no bus station close to the new amenities? And why will there be so little on-street parking? Shopkeepers say they benefit hugely from the current system of 30min or 1 hour parking.
The city of Bath has some wonderful modern development amongst the Georgian buildings. Surely Winchester deserves something similarly inspired to set off its medieval heritage - instead of the current depressing New Town design.
What, I wonder, happened to the comment forms filled in by those of us who attended the display of plans at the Guildhall recently? And why was this so poorly advertised? Is the council hoping for a quick 'done deal'?

Score: 23

Julie1976
10:44pm Thu 19 Jun 14

I really don't think this development is such
A great idea , I mean six and seven storey
Buildings towering over the city centre ?
This development will ruin our beautiful
Heritage city .
I'm sure if it's just a matter of time to get
This current plan right we've been waiting
For a long time already a bit more time
Isn't really going to make a huge differene .

I really don't think this development is such
A great idea , I mean six and seven storey
Buildings towering over the city centre ?
This development will ruin our beautiful
Heritage city .
I'm sure if it's just a matter of time to get
This current plan right we've been waiting
For a long time already a bit more time
Isn't really going to make a huge differene .Julie1976

I really don't think this development is such
A great idea , I mean six and seven storey
Buildings towering over the city centre ?
This development will ruin our beautiful
Heritage city .
I'm sure if it's just a matter of time to get
This current plan right we've been waiting
For a long time already a bit more time
Isn't really going to make a huge differene .

Score: 8

jonone
8:59am Fri 20 Jun 14

That redevelopment is needed is in no doubt, but these scheme is essentially awful. Whatever happened to the alternative proposals, by Huw Thomas I think, which had much better design and architecture.

That redevelopment is needed is in no doubt, but these scheme is essentially awful. Whatever happened to the alternative proposals, by Huw Thomas I think, which had much better design and architecture.jonone

That redevelopment is needed is in no doubt, but these scheme is essentially awful. Whatever happened to the alternative proposals, by Huw Thomas I think, which had much better design and architecture.

Score: 3

neoturf
9:02am Fri 20 Jun 14

The design reminds me of those awful new flats they built opposite the library on Jewry Street.. except on a much larger scale. The council are pretty much admitting how bad it is as the only justification they have for going ahead is that its been 17 years in the making, so we have to just lump it. Their ineptitude is staggering.

The design reminds me of those awful new flats they built opposite the library on Jewry Street.. except on a much larger scale. The council are pretty much admitting how bad it is as the only justification they have for going ahead is that its been 17 years in the making, so we have to just lump it. Their ineptitude is staggering.neoturf

The design reminds me of those awful new flats they built opposite the library on Jewry Street.. except on a much larger scale. The council are pretty much admitting how bad it is as the only justification they have for going ahead is that its been 17 years in the making, so we have to just lump it. Their ineptitude is staggering.

Score: 10

winchester resident
5:40pm Fri 20 Jun 14

caelumalbus wrote…

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.

I guess this might be another councillor with a typical lack of knowledge of how the big world out there works.
Those seventeen (more correctly a dozen years) have mostly been spent waiting. ....waiting when Thornfield went bust, waiting for the compulsory purchase process etc etc.
Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do for Winchester is an issue independent of the length of time the process has taken.......and time taken and resources spent in the past are "sunk costs" ,that should not be taken into account when evaluating the future of a project. It's one of the greatest business fallacies to do so and leads often to disastrously mistaken decisions.

What credentials does this person/ councillor have to judge that Allies & Morrison is one of the world's best architects?. That's a massive claim and not a view, I guess, that a lot would subscribe to.

[quote][p][bold]caelumalbus[/bold] wrote:
are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.[/p][/quote]I guess this might be another councillor with a typical lack of knowledge of how the big world out there works.
Those seventeen (more correctly a dozen years) have mostly been spent waiting. ....waiting when Thornfield went bust, waiting for the compulsory purchase process etc etc.
Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do for Winchester is an issue independent of the length of time the process has taken.......and time taken and resources spent in the past are "sunk costs" ,that should not be taken into account when evaluating the future of a project. It's one of the greatest business fallacies to do so and leads often to disastrously mistaken decisions.
What credentials does this person/ councillor have to judge that Allies & Morrison is one of the world's best architects?. That's a massive claim and not a view, I guess, that a lot would subscribe to.winchester resident

caelumalbus wrote…

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.

I guess this might be another councillor with a typical lack of knowledge of how the big world out there works.
Those seventeen (more correctly a dozen years) have mostly been spent waiting. ....waiting when Thornfield went bust, waiting for the compulsory purchase process etc etc.
Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do for Winchester is an issue independent of the length of time the process has taken.......and time taken and resources spent in the past are "sunk costs" ,that should not be taken into account when evaluating the future of a project. It's one of the greatest business fallacies to do so and leads often to disastrously mistaken decisions.

What credentials does this person/ councillor have to judge that Allies & Morrison is one of the world's best architects?. That's a massive claim and not a view, I guess, that a lot would subscribe to.

Score: 0

Jimtiddlypom
11:37pm Fri 20 Jun 14

I'm a resident of the centre and I'm much more interested in listening to reasoned opinion than over indulgent rhetoric or conspiracy theories. This area needs redeveloping and whatever is proposed will not be to everyone's taste. Many people think that everything should be built in the style of the preceeding decade / century / millennium, which is a valid view to hold, if an uninspiring one. Personally I agree with some of what Kim Gottleib has said I but some is diengenous rubbish.

Winchester deserves a high quality exciting development. From what I've seen the proposals are high quality but I'm not sure are exciting. This is the city centre of the County Town - I don't see why we should aim for bungalows instead of something with some presence.

Scrapping the current work in favour of starting again would be stupid - if this is essentially what we want then why start again from scratch? And what do those totally opposing the current proposals actually expect to see come forward? Another Brooks Centre??

There are issues with the current proposals but not so fundemental that those who want to see large scale improvement of the Silver Hill area (just go and walk around it this weekend) should call for starting again.

I'm a resident of the centre and I'm much more interested in listening to reasoned opinion than over indulgent rhetoric or conspiracy theories. This area needs redeveloping and whatever is proposed will not be to everyone's taste. Many people think that everything should be built in the style of the preceeding decade / century / millennium, which is a valid view to hold, if an uninspiring one. Personally I agree with some of what Kim Gottleib has said I but some is diengenous rubbish.
Winchester deserves a high quality exciting development. From what I've seen the proposals are high quality but I'm not sure are exciting. This is the city centre of the County Town - I don't see why we should aim for bungalows instead of something with some presence.
Scrapping the current work in favour of starting again would be stupid - if this is essentially what we want then why start again from scratch? And what do those totally opposing the current proposals actually expect to see come forward? Another Brooks Centre??
There are issues with the current proposals but not so fundemental that those who want to see large scale improvement of the Silver Hill area (just go and walk around it this weekend) should call for starting again.Jimtiddlypom

I'm a resident of the centre and I'm much more interested in listening to reasoned opinion than over indulgent rhetoric or conspiracy theories. This area needs redeveloping and whatever is proposed will not be to everyone's taste. Many people think that everything should be built in the style of the preceeding decade / century / millennium, which is a valid view to hold, if an uninspiring one. Personally I agree with some of what Kim Gottleib has said I but some is diengenous rubbish.

Winchester deserves a high quality exciting development. From what I've seen the proposals are high quality but I'm not sure are exciting. This is the city centre of the County Town - I don't see why we should aim for bungalows instead of something with some presence.

Scrapping the current work in favour of starting again would be stupid - if this is essentially what we want then why start again from scratch? And what do those totally opposing the current proposals actually expect to see come forward? Another Brooks Centre??

There are issues with the current proposals but not so fundemental that those who want to see large scale improvement of the Silver Hill area (just go and walk around it this weekend) should call for starting again.

Score: 0

Kim Gottlieb
8:07am Sat 21 Jun 14

Dear Jim Tiddlypom

I don't know which bit of what I've said you regard as "disingenuous rubbish" but at least there's a debate going on - something that this project has sorely lacked - and at least you agree with me that the scheme is unexciting. In turn, I agree with you that the scheme should have presence and not consist of bungalows.

Please be assured that I am very pro-development and want this site to be regenerated as soon as possible, but what I want to see happen is for the Council to seize this once in a generation opportunity and to aim for something that is exciting and something to be proud of.

Again you are right to suggest that it doesn't need to be in a period architectural style, but it does need to have intrinsic quality and to be based on a sound concept and a forward thinking appreciation of how town centres work and will continue to work in a rapidly changing online trading era.

One of the original ideas put forward by the Council was that the design should be split amongst a number of different architectural practices, so that no one style would overly dominate and so that the whole development wouldn't be viewed as a single mass at odds with the existing built environment. This approach has been lost along the way, and what we have now, in my view, is a single monumental mass which overly dominates.

Another thing that I am sure you will agree with is that this is an ideal opportunity for the Council to put into play, the opportunity to redevelop the Brooks as part of a much more comprehensive regeneration project. This is another once in a generation opportunity that is being missed.

If you do walk about Silver Hill this weekend please take a good look at Woolstaplers Hall. The original planning brief produced by the Council in 2003 envisaged it remaining as the tallest building in any scheme coming forward. It is now instead going to be dwarfed by its new neighbours which, by another measure, are taller than the Brooks' bell tower.

Dear Jim Tiddlypom
I don't know which bit of what I've said you regard as "disingenuous rubbish" but at least there's a debate going on - something that this project has sorely lacked - and at least you agree with me that the scheme is unexciting. In turn, I agree with you that the scheme should have presence and not consist of bungalows.
Please be assured that I am very pro-development and want this site to be regenerated as soon as possible, but what I want to see happen is for the Council to seize this once in a generation opportunity and to aim for something that is exciting and something to be proud of.
Again you are right to suggest that it doesn't need to be in a period architectural style, but it does need to have intrinsic quality and to be based on a sound concept and a forward thinking appreciation of how town centres work and will continue to work in a rapidly changing online trading era.
One of the original ideas put forward by the Council was that the design should be split amongst a number of different architectural practices, so that no one style would overly dominate and so that the whole development wouldn't be viewed as a single mass at odds with the existing built environment. This approach has been lost along the way, and what we have now, in my view, is a single monumental mass which overly dominates.
Another thing that I am sure you will agree with is that this is an ideal opportunity for the Council to put into play, the opportunity to redevelop the Brooks as part of a much more comprehensive regeneration project. This is another once in a generation opportunity that is being missed.
If you do walk about Silver Hill this weekend please take a good look at Woolstaplers Hall. The original planning brief produced by the Council in 2003 envisaged it remaining as the tallest building in any scheme coming forward. It is now instead going to be dwarfed by its new neighbours which, by another measure, are taller than the Brooks' bell tower.Kim Gottlieb

Dear Jim Tiddlypom

I don't know which bit of what I've said you regard as "disingenuous rubbish" but at least there's a debate going on - something that this project has sorely lacked - and at least you agree with me that the scheme is unexciting. In turn, I agree with you that the scheme should have presence and not consist of bungalows.

Please be assured that I am very pro-development and want this site to be regenerated as soon as possible, but what I want to see happen is for the Council to seize this once in a generation opportunity and to aim for something that is exciting and something to be proud of.

Again you are right to suggest that it doesn't need to be in a period architectural style, but it does need to have intrinsic quality and to be based on a sound concept and a forward thinking appreciation of how town centres work and will continue to work in a rapidly changing online trading era.

One of the original ideas put forward by the Council was that the design should be split amongst a number of different architectural practices, so that no one style would overly dominate and so that the whole development wouldn't be viewed as a single mass at odds with the existing built environment. This approach has been lost along the way, and what we have now, in my view, is a single monumental mass which overly dominates.

Another thing that I am sure you will agree with is that this is an ideal opportunity for the Council to put into play, the opportunity to redevelop the Brooks as part of a much more comprehensive regeneration project. This is another once in a generation opportunity that is being missed.

If you do walk about Silver Hill this weekend please take a good look at Woolstaplers Hall. The original planning brief produced by the Council in 2003 envisaged it remaining as the tallest building in any scheme coming forward. It is now instead going to be dwarfed by its new neighbours which, by another measure, are taller than the Brooks' bell tower.

Score: 12

Shoong
1:38pm Sun 22 Jun 14

Whiteshute wrote…

Cllr Gottlieb is right to ask for the Silver Hill development to be halted. Winchester City Council have been completely duped by Henderson Clobal Investors (the name says everything! .Retail has changed in the last decade and another white elephant is Winchester should be aviaded at all costs. The ruling Conservative Group have ben very lax in letting matters get so far, it should have been quashed at the outset, nobody in Winchester wants it. So stop Henerson marauders now before it is too late.

Sorry, everyone I've spoken to is right behind it.

Silver Hill is a shameful part of Winchester which lets the rest of our beautiful city down.

[quote][p][bold]Whiteshute[/bold] wrote:
Cllr Gottlieb is right to ask for the Silver Hill development to be halted. Winchester City Council have been completely duped by Henderson Clobal Investors (the name says everything! .Retail has changed in the last decade and another white elephant is Winchester should be aviaded at all costs. The ruling Conservative Group have ben very lax in letting matters get so far, it should have been quashed at the outset, nobody in Winchester wants it. So stop Henerson marauders now before it is too late.[/p][/quote]Sorry, everyone I've spoken to is right behind it.
Silver Hill is a shameful part of Winchester which lets the rest of our beautiful city down.Shoong

Whiteshute wrote…

Cllr Gottlieb is right to ask for the Silver Hill development to be halted. Winchester City Council have been completely duped by Henderson Clobal Investors (the name says everything! .Retail has changed in the last decade and another white elephant is Winchester should be aviaded at all costs. The ruling Conservative Group have ben very lax in letting matters get so far, it should have been quashed at the outset, nobody in Winchester wants it. So stop Henerson marauders now before it is too late.

Sorry, everyone I've spoken to is right behind it.

Silver Hill is a shameful part of Winchester which lets the rest of our beautiful city down.

Score: 3

campfreddie
7:07pm Sun 22 Jun 14

Lets get Huw Thomas to come up with a design. He single handedly saved the Barracks from being raised to the ground and replaced with some carp contemporary rubbish to what we have now. If you really do want contemporary architecture, we could always look to that lot at Smug Projects. although they seem to specialise in shoe box type sites.

Lets get Huw Thomas to come up with a design. He single handedly saved the Barracks from being raised to the ground and replaced with some carp contemporary rubbish to what we have now. If you really do want contemporary architecture, we could always look to that lot at Smug Projects. although they seem to specialise in shoe box type sites.campfreddie

Lets get Huw Thomas to come up with a design. He single handedly saved the Barracks from being raised to the ground and replaced with some carp contemporary rubbish to what we have now. If you really do want contemporary architecture, we could always look to that lot at Smug Projects. although they seem to specialise in shoe box type sites.

Score: 0

caelumalbus
11:41am Thu 26 Jun 14

winchester resident wrote…

caelumalbus wrote…

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.

I guess this might be another councillor with a typical lack of knowledge of how the big world out there works.
Those seventeen (more correctly a dozen years) have mostly been spent waiting. ....waiting when Thornfield went bust, waiting for the compulsory purchase process etc etc.
Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do for Winchester is an issue independent of the length of time the process has taken.......and time taken and resources spent in the past are "sunk costs" ,that should not be taken into account when evaluating the future of a project. It's one of the greatest business fallacies to do so and leads often to disastrously mistaken decisions.

What credentials does this person/ councillor have to judge that Allies & Morrison is one of the world's best architects?. That's a massive claim and not a view, I guess, that a lot would subscribe to.

Why do you assume someone with a positive view has to be a Councillor? I'm a resident who is not afraid of CHANGE, unlike the majority of people writing comments here. We don't have to pretend to be Victorians by copying their buildings again - use your brain and come up with something original. Allies and Morrison has won 39 RIBA Awards, 17 Civic Trust Awards, 7 British Council for Offices Awards, 7 environmental awards and have been nominated for the Stirling Prize twice. So quite a few people, who know what they are talking about, subscribe to the view that they are pretty good Architects…..

[quote][p][bold]winchester resident[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]caelumalbus[/bold] wrote:
are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.[/p][/quote]I guess this might be another councillor with a typical lack of knowledge of how the big world out there works.
Those seventeen (more correctly a dozen years) have mostly been spent waiting. ....waiting when Thornfield went bust, waiting for the compulsory purchase process etc etc.
Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do for Winchester is an issue independent of the length of time the process has taken.......and time taken and resources spent in the past are "sunk costs" ,that should not be taken into account when evaluating the future of a project. It's one of the greatest business fallacies to do so and leads often to disastrously mistaken decisions.
What credentials does this person/ councillor have to judge that Allies & Morrison is one of the world's best architects?. That's a massive claim and not a view, I guess, that a lot would subscribe to.[/p][/quote]Why do you assume someone with a positive view has to be a Councillor? I'm a resident who is not afraid of CHANGE, unlike the majority of people writing comments here. We don't have to pretend to be Victorians by copying their buildings again - use your brain and come up with something original. Allies and Morrison has won 39 RIBA Awards, 17 Civic Trust Awards, 7 British Council for Offices Awards, 7 environmental awards and have been nominated for the Stirling Prize twice. So quite a few people, who know what they are talking about, subscribe to the view that they are pretty good Architects…..caelumalbus

winchester resident wrote…

caelumalbus wrote…

are you all crazy? proposing to undo 17 years of work, masterplanned by one of the world's best architects - other cities would beg for this level of care and attention. there have been similar developments in historic cities all over the uk and europe (embraced by educated and enlightened inhabitants) that enhance the historic parts of the city. its time the real population of winchester who live in the 21st century made themselves heard instead of the same old nimbys with so much time on their hands to complain and create vast websites undermining the council's efforts to do the right thing - not least someone who is actually a councillor themselves! have you not seen the model in city museum? believe it or not winchester has evolved over time, yes its true. our ancestors had a lot more balls and didn't faff around for 17 years wasting their civic funds on paperwork and legal fees. silver hill is a wasteland long overdue for redevelopment, just like the leisure centre….but that's another story.

I guess this might be another councillor with a typical lack of knowledge of how the big world out there works.
Those seventeen (more correctly a dozen years) have mostly been spent waiting. ....waiting when Thornfield went bust, waiting for the compulsory purchase process etc etc.
Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do for Winchester is an issue independent of the length of time the process has taken.......and time taken and resources spent in the past are "sunk costs" ,that should not be taken into account when evaluating the future of a project. It's one of the greatest business fallacies to do so and leads often to disastrously mistaken decisions.

What credentials does this person/ councillor have to judge that Allies & Morrison is one of the world's best architects?. That's a massive claim and not a view, I guess, that a lot would subscribe to.

Why do you assume someone with a positive view has to be a Councillor? I'm a resident who is not afraid of CHANGE, unlike the majority of people writing comments here. We don't have to pretend to be Victorians by copying their buildings again - use your brain and come up with something original. Allies and Morrison has won 39 RIBA Awards, 17 Civic Trust Awards, 7 British Council for Offices Awards, 7 environmental awards and have been nominated for the Stirling Prize twice. So quite a few people, who know what they are talking about, subscribe to the view that they are pretty good Architects…..

Score: 3

win447
5:47pm Thu 26 Jun 14

ITS ABOUT TIME THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN WINCHESTER GET THERE HEADS OUT OF THERE ....And look at winchester as a whole were so behide with other places outside of winchester i mean it still looks as if its still in the 12 century not the 21st century its drab boring place to shop and not alot of choice shops closing down and businesses finding else where because of rising rental prices,kings walk needs a bomb up its backside ,meaning pull it down and start again and that includes that so called excuse of a shopping centre i see more people in eastleigh shopping centre than you do in winchester people go else where like southampton,eastleig
h,reading,whitley village,london,bourn
emouth because no one wants to shop in winchester anymore because its becoming so drab,mundane and boring and so dracorian its looks so outdated buildings ,nothing to offer the younger professional or familys or students winchester is outdated and backward time for a change ,time to move on and move forward with the times ,not stuck in some time wrap for another 20years of drab boring shops before long it will become a ghost town,because people will get bored with same old thing over and over again,it needs a revamped reworked shops shopping centre and accomodation for young professional familys who want to live in winchester but they find else where in the end ,CUS WHERE LOOSING OUT because people dont want change well to bad time for a CHANGE IN WINCHESTER THE SOONER THE BETTER ,otherwise it will end up a forgotten washed up tourist attraction which it is already is NOTHING but a tourist attraction dracorian town ,if it wasnt for that oversized church being here what would winchester be?nothing but a dried up old fruit outdated shops and bars with nothing to offer but to aim at the passing trade not the locals cus they go elsewhere because winchester is BORING DRAB OVERPRICED GREY AREA which needs to be looked at in the future cus one day winchester wont exist anymore basingstoke and reading are getting bigger and bigger and southampton is injecting more money accomodation for students and new businesses adventures in these areas whats winchester doing?mmm nothing but moaning about things again ,stop winging and wineging like victor meldrew and get on with it knock the old rubbish down i mean its outdated no one vists kings walk no one wants to go there cus its boring drab and outdated car parks overpriced parking and also outdated shops
SO GET ON WITH IT otherwise it be another um and arhhing about for another 20yrs take a leaf out of other citys outside of winchester because this place will be left behide in the dark ages for good..

ITS ABOUT TIME THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN WINCHESTER GET THERE HEADS OUT OF THERE ....And look at winchester as a whole were so behide with other places outside of winchester i mean it still looks as if its still in the 12 century not the 21st century its drab boring place to shop and not alot of choice shops closing down and businesses finding else where because of rising rental prices,kings walk needs a bomb up its backside ,meaning pull it down and start again and that includes that so called excuse of a shopping centre i see more people in eastleigh shopping centre than you do in winchester people go else where like southampton,eastleig
h,reading,whitley village,london,bourn
emouth because no one wants to shop in winchester anymore because its becoming so drab,mundane and boring and so dracorian its looks so outdated buildings ,nothing to offer the younger professional or familys or students winchester is outdated and backward time for a change ,time to move on and move forward with the times ,not stuck in some time wrap for another 20years of drab boring shops before long it will become a ghost town,because people will get bored with same old thing over and over again,it needs a revamped reworked shops shopping centre and accomodation for young professional familys who want to live in winchester but they find else where in the end ,CUS WHERE LOOSING OUT because people dont want change well to bad time for a CHANGE IN WINCHESTER THE SOONER THE BETTER ,otherwise it will end up a forgotten washed up tourist attraction which it is already is NOTHING but a tourist attraction dracorian town ,if it wasnt for that oversized church being here what would winchester be?nothing but a dried up old fruit outdated shops and bars with nothing to offer but to aim at the passing trade not the locals cus they go elsewhere because winchester is BORING DRAB OVERPRICED GREY AREA which needs to be looked at in the future cus one day winchester wont exist anymore basingstoke and reading are getting bigger and bigger and southampton is injecting more money accomodation for students and new businesses adventures in these areas whats winchester doing?mmm nothing but moaning about things again ,stop winging and wineging like victor meldrew and get on with it knock the old rubbish down i mean its outdated no one vists kings walk no one wants to go there cus its boring drab and outdated car parks overpriced parking and also outdated shops
SO GET ON WITH IT otherwise it be another um and arhhing about for another 20yrs take a leaf out of other citys outside of winchester because this place will be left behide in the dark ages for good..win447

ITS ABOUT TIME THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN WINCHESTER GET THERE HEADS OUT OF THERE ....And look at winchester as a whole were so behide with other places outside of winchester i mean it still looks as if its still in the 12 century not the 21st century its drab boring place to shop and not alot of choice shops closing down and businesses finding else where because of rising rental prices,kings walk needs a bomb up its backside ,meaning pull it down and start again and that includes that so called excuse of a shopping centre i see more people in eastleigh shopping centre than you do in winchester people go else where like southampton,eastleig
h,reading,whitley village,london,bourn
emouth because no one wants to shop in winchester anymore because its becoming so drab,mundane and boring and so dracorian its looks so outdated buildings ,nothing to offer the younger professional or familys or students winchester is outdated and backward time for a change ,time to move on and move forward with the times ,not stuck in some time wrap for another 20years of drab boring shops before long it will become a ghost town,because people will get bored with same old thing over and over again,it needs a revamped reworked shops shopping centre and accomodation for young professional familys who want to live in winchester but they find else where in the end ,CUS WHERE LOOSING OUT because people dont want change well to bad time for a CHANGE IN WINCHESTER THE SOONER THE BETTER ,otherwise it will end up a forgotten washed up tourist attraction which it is already is NOTHING but a tourist attraction dracorian town ,if it wasnt for that oversized church being here what would winchester be?nothing but a dried up old fruit outdated shops and bars with nothing to offer but to aim at the passing trade not the locals cus they go elsewhere because winchester is BORING DRAB OVERPRICED GREY AREA which needs to be looked at in the future cus one day winchester wont exist anymore basingstoke and reading are getting bigger and bigger and southampton is injecting more money accomodation for students and new businesses adventures in these areas whats winchester doing?mmm nothing but moaning about things again ,stop winging and wineging like victor meldrew and get on with it knock the old rubbish down i mean its outdated no one vists kings walk no one wants to go there cus its boring drab and outdated car parks overpriced parking and also outdated shops
SO GET ON WITH IT otherwise it be another um and arhhing about for another 20yrs take a leaf out of other citys outside of winchester because this place will be left behide in the dark ages for good..

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