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Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

Originally Posted by odfrank

>
How much time are you saving? The same goes for mono-filament line IMHO. What is the savings and benefit over the proven method of using wires?

For foundationless, I think the advantage of heavy monofilament is that its diameter is so much greater than wire, so that it is less likely to cut the comb when the comb is soft. Plus it's faster to install than wire, the way I do it.

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

I tried using monofilament but the bees chewed it out of the comb in less than a year. Never tried wire. I plan on using the skewers. I used small diameter dowel in my top bar for the first ten bars or so. it has worked well. one dowel has gotten broken off and it tends to casue the bees to mis direct the comb as they draw it so I did not put it on the rest of the bars. The comb has since been corrected.

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

I have a lot of deep frames that I have that are foundationless, that wax looks pretty white odfrank, and I noticed it's not attached on the sides. I have had some break out like that, and the majority of the ones that do are not attached. I don't run foundationless in my supers just in my brood boxes. I have noticed the ones in the brood boxes that get a little bit of age to them have quite a bit more rigidity; however, I do have some that will crack throughout the entire comb but not fall out (these bloody Wyoming winters will reek havoc on them, maybe the expansion and contraction of a -20F night followed by a 40F high the next day?) but as long as they don't fall out the bees will patch them up in the spring. I do really like having the BB's foundationless so I'm in the process of moving all of my rite-cell into my supers and all of my BB's foundationless, it's been about a two year process for fifty colonies, pleased with the results so far.

We the willing have done so much with so little for so long we can now do anything with nothing

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

This is my 1st year. I put up 7 traps (mostly cardboard boxes) on June 11 and caught my bees on June 20. I'm supposed to put traps up in April and catch bees in mid May to mid June.

My plan was to use foundation in the 1st box and checkerboard up. In the future I could get more hives and use healthy drawn comb to checkerboard new swarms, so I'm completely foundationless.
Frames I have: 50 foundationless, 10 foundation
setup: all 10 frame mediums (all unwired)
Perhaps I should have used all deeps. 90 lbs isn't much for me, and shouldn't be much for most people (provided they have a healthy diet).

There are some rules I found/follow.
1. Make the hive level.
2. Don't tilt the frames unless they are fully drawn, and preferably not hot.
3. Checkerboard (place drawn comb in-between empty frames).
- Comb used in checkerboarding should have lots of brood, or a lot of it should be capped.
4. Empty frames should have something to direct the bees to hang from the middle. In the future I will buy foundationless frames from kelleybees.com.

An elderly woman agreed to inspect my hive. She appeared to be experienced, and spoke a lot about her experience. I told her to not tilt frames, but she tilted one, and I had to reattach the comb. She also crushed a lot of bees (possibly even 10). Even with all of this, my bees didn't sting. I will requeen them to make them more aggressive as soon as possible. I've never used smoke.

questions for the op
Why would someone extract honey from a frame that's not drawn?
Did the op break a rule?

questions
An experienced guy tried checkerboarding with wired foundationless frames. He said the bees built around the wire. Should the wire/skewers be coated in wax? Michael Bush said he extracts from unwired mediums.

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

white wax is not as strong. I use wedge frames so they draw from the center and I've not had a problem with extraction or comb falling apart, and ahem, its hot in Texas. Bee inspector slightly damaged one foundationless frame last year but not a total collapse. I don't wire mediums.

And 90 lbs is a lot for me, I just got my spine all back in line today, not allowed to lift that full deep for a day or 2, and it would be better if I pull the frames and split them into nucs when I pull it.

Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

I would seriously doubt that wire would strengthen fresh soft and full combs of honey better than a wooden skewer or slat. Remember that the purpose of wiring was always to keep the foundation from buckling, not to strengthen the comb.

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

>questions for the op
Why would someone extract honey from a frame that's not drawn?
Did the op break a rule?

I extract cut combs that were not completed well enough to cut in an attempt to re-use them next year. If I broke a rule I hope I am not banished from BS for doing so. Here are two we extracted this year:

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

course once the comb is hardened that the wires will add strength. And a drunk driving traffic stop will net drivers with expired registrations....but that isn't why they do the traffic stops.

Remember that the extractor was invented before foundation....and wiring was never necessary enough to be used until beekeepers started to use foundation and it buckled before it could get drawn properly.

A wire running through fresh honeycomb full of honey is a knife.

...but I've seen you handle foundation less frames before....you should stick to foundation

Deknow

Deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

>Remember that the purpose of wiring was always to keep the foundation from buckling, not to strengthen the comb.

I disagree with that statement.

I have for decades used uncleated grooved top bars and grooved bottom bars with horizontal wires. As the foundation is not attached to the bars, the horizontal wires are the only item preventing the comb from bulging or popping out of the frame during extracting. This system works excellently for my purposes.

I for one, do not hang blindly on every word spoken by Michael Bush and Dee Lusby. I prefer to develop techniques garnered over decades of experience.

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

I have done some foundationless frames and I prefer to prewire them and let the bees build foundationless comb around the wire. You dont have to be so painstaking when examining frames and you can lean the frame up against the hive without it spilling. Yes a fresh drawn deep frame filled with honey on a hot day can cut through the wire but it stands a better chance than one that is not wired. You can argue all you want about exactly why wiring came to be but that has dick to do with whether it is an asset. Is it an absolute essential? No. I bet that time saved by not wiring is more than used up having to pussyfoot around a more delicate frame. I think sometimes people get off on an idealistic bent and then grasp for ways to justify the idealism.

Anyways if you are going to wire I think the little wire crimper tool adds to the grip on the comb and is a slick way of tensioning or retensioning the wire.

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

>>course once the comb is hardened that the wires will add strength. And a drunk driving traffic stop will net drivers with expired registrations....but that isn't why they do the traffic stops.>>

Odd comparison Dean

>>Remember that the extractor was invented before foundation....and wiring was never necessary enough to be used until beekeepers started to use foundation and it buckled before it could get drawn properly.<<

They never used a radial extractor.

>>A wire running through fresh honeycomb full of honey is a knife.<<

Not when the horizontal wires are embedded against several vertical wires.

>>...but I've seen you handle foundation less frames before....you should stick to foundation<<

Re: Another disadvantage with Foundationless

1. Frank....don't take my word for it...the various wiring schemes and the motivations behind them are well described in ABC of Bee Culture..at least the 9 new through the 70s I think. I'm not at home and type get 9 my phone, but the historical progression is very clear.

2. Mike, I misread your question...but what the bleep are you talking about? I'm saying that wires were never found necessary until the use of foundation....you are asking me about pre-wired foundation and the strength perpendicular wiring adds...to foundation.

Beekeepers were extracting happily from unwired combs....it was buckling foundation that was the motivation to wire the frames. Perhaps the added strength made the invention of the radial extractor possible...but the historical progression is pretty clear, and I happen to think it is helpful to understand such things.

Deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead