I'd give SSJ3 Goku about a 9 Stat. He's very almost 10 but mainly all 9.

The BoG trio is closer to gold star then a number system, though.

banana3

I thought it was obvious I was referring to their destructive capability and speed

Quincy

Same answer

Quincy

Nah I have no idea. Is there a way to tell that sort of thing?

Astner

Destructive capacity: Planet - Solar System.

Speed: Meta-human

banana3

Isn't meta human like not even mach speed? I would have pre-god Goku at relativistic (ftl with kaioken scaling) from piccolo's moon buster. Even kaioken scaling off of Goku training to be faster than lightning pre 23rd Budokai gives mach 70,400. The bog trio speed is what idk.

Originally posted by banana3
mftl, galaxy, and multiversal? Where's your proof for that?

Kid Goku being FTL, Bills and Kid Buu in the manga being galaxy level, and Buuhan being able to destroy the multiverse by screaming in the anime.

TheTyrant

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Kid Goku being FTL, Bills and Kid Buu in the manga being galaxy level, and Buuhan being able to destroy the multiverse by screaming in the anime.

If Kid Goku is ftl then how come it was taking adult Goku such a long time to cross Snake Way. Or how come it was taking Krillin hours to get from point A to point B on Namek?

Dodging laser beams is a common trope in fiction. Captain America is ftl as well going by your logic.

---

SSJ3 Goku DC: solar system+
SSJ3 Goku speed: ftl

Bills, SSJG Goku, and Whis are obviously above SSJ3 Goku but I'm not sure where they lie. Don't see their DC as being galaxy level, though. Maybe multi-solar system destruction capacity.

Also, Super Buu in the anime was only threatening a universe by making alternate dimensions collapse or some shit through a chain reaction. Not like he was going to blow up a universe let alone a multi-verse with a blast.

SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by TheTyrant
If Kid Goku is ftl then how come it was taking adult Goku such a long time to cross Snake Way. Or how come it was taking Krillin hours to get from point A to point B on Namek?

Dodging laser beams is a common trope in fiction. Captain America is ftl as well going by your logic.

---

SSJ3 Goku DC: solar system+
SSJ3 Goku speed: ftl

Bills, SSJG Goku, and Whis are obviously above SSJ3 Goku but I'm not sure where they lie. Don't see their DC as being galaxy level, though. Maybe multi-solar system destruction capacity.

Also, Super Buu in the anime was only threatening a universe by making alternate dimensions collapse or some shit through a chain reaction. Not like he was going to blow up a universe let alone a multi-verse with a blast.

Battle speed =/= Travel speed.

Going by your logic, I could argue that Goku could fight faster than time itself by the Android saga.

I wasn't basing it off dodging lasers. I was basing it off of outrunning solar flare. To dodge something, you can be almost any amount slower than it. To outrun something, you have to be faster than it. Goku outran a flash of light.

I don't really see that as a true feat though, as it seems a bit outlier-y. I still consider Raditz FTL though, as he was able to side-step "The light of death". Not saying any of them can maintain that speed, but later on they sure can.

However, I base Goku's actual speed on his feat on Namek, when he flew across it in less than .000003 seconds. Namek is 3.5 times larger in circumference than Earth. This makes Namek base Goku 77,000 times faster than light. There is nothing to contradict that afterwords in the series.

I don't see why you're putting SSJ3 Goku at solar system DC. I don't know why that's so reliable of a DC for everyone, but that's not accurate. All that is based off of is inaccurate power scaling from the Frieza saga, which is completely incorrect in the first place, going by statements.

Super Buu was destroying "All of creation", throughout multiple dimensions. I.E. THE MULTIVERSE.

Plus, he was doing it with his ki. It doesn't matter if he was doing it by causing dimensions to collapse, he was causing mutliversal destruction through HIS ki. Making him a multiverse buster, and all of his attacks multiverse potent, since he was a multiverse buster with a shout. I guarantee that if Superman, or Galactus was destroying the multiverse with a shout, and someone stopped them, that you would take it as immediate fact.

NemeBro

Originally posted by TheTyrant
If Kid Goku is ftl then how come it was taking adult Goku such a long time to cross Snake Way. Or how come it was taking Krillin hours to get from point A to point B on Namek?

Dodging laser beams is a common trope in fiction. Captain America is ftl as well going by your logic.

---

SSJ3 Goku DC: solar system+
SSJ3 Goku speed: ftl

Bills, SSJG Goku, and Whis are obviously above SSJ3 Goku but I'm not sure where they lie. Don't see their DC as being galaxy level, though. Maybe multi-solar system destruction capacity.

Also, Super Buu in the anime was only threatening a universe by making alternate dimensions collapse or some shit through a chain reaction. Not like he was going to blow up a universe let alone a multi-verse with a blast.

Based on what is SSJ3 Goku FTL?

TheTyrant

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Battle speed =/= Travel speed.
\

I wasn't basing it off dodging lasers. I was basing it off of outrunning solar flare. To dodge something, you can be almost any amount slower than it. To outrun something, you have to be faster than it. Goku outran a flash of light. Yeah, so basically you're saying that he can run faster in combat than he can run normally? How does that make any sense?

Astner

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Yeah, so basically you're saying that he can run faster in combat than he can run normally? How does that make any sense?
No. What he's saying is that there's a difference between short-distance coordination and long-distance coordination.

pym-ftw

The linear scaling in Dbz is bs. Don't use the times tables to extrapolate or you get nonsense.

Originally posted by NemeBro
haermm Do you have a strength feat above that level? I felt I was being fairly generous.

Speed is hard to gauge in that we never know the distance traveled.

Damborgson

Coli did not outrun a flash of light. He left and returned during tiens posturing for the move.

pym-ftw

Ok?

banana3

Speed is relativistic due to Piccolo's moon bust. Class 100+ strength due to SSJ2 Gohan pulverizing the Cell JRs who have higher dura than Freeza who survived a large planet explosion.

pym-ftw

Do you have any strength feat to back up that claim? Durability =/= strength.

StealthRanger

Buuhan punched Gotenks' blast through the planet, which should be a country-continent level strength feat

banana3

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Do you have any strength feat to back up that claim? Durability =/= strength. The SSJ2 Gohan feat I already said. Are you trying to imply split dura?

pym-ftw

Yes.... As I stated in my earlier post.

Guys like Buu weren't even bulletproof but was able to throw around the Z fighters like a superball

StealthRanger

&gt;Buu
&gt;not even bulletproof

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbuk3vlsZZ1rvfs1y.gif

pym-ftw

It's nice to let it out, cry more often...

You realize Buu was actually shot right, it's not speculation? His hf negates the damage but it still happened no matter how much you don't like it.

StealthRanger

Oh I get it, so basically the age old tripe of "but low end showings count as evidence too!", which you know, they don't and are contradicted by everything else in the series, especially considering Buu tank attacks from the Z fighters, who are well into the sub-relativistic, large planet busting range

Then again, remember guiz, Mach 5 Freiza Saga

EDIT: Also, don't appeal to guns, guns are overrated as shit in fiction and are always shown harming characters they feasibly shouldn't, this is nothing new

pym-ftw

Anime characters don't get the low showing argument, they have only 1 writer... their creator & don't have nearly the number of showings that negate showings

Buu was vaporized by the planet buster, and then reformed.

Thanks for playing

Also lol @ guns being over powered in the comic medium, the sheer number of people either dodging or tanking them with little to no explanation is huge.

NemeBro

Buu can be easily manipulated, far more so than characters weaker than him, but his elasticity and ability to regenerate make this a moot point.

Goku was taking gun shots to the face when he was a child.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Anime characters don't get the low showing argument, they have only 1 writer... their creator & don't have nearly the number of showings that negate showings

Special pleading fallacy. Doesn't change the fact that fictions are generally inconsistent and showings will vary regardless

Seriously, this is the same logic Moses and his MVC brigade use

Vaporised by the planet exploding, which was calc'd at small star level, the fact DBZ characters bust up mountains and shit physically and can survive attacks from eachother generally overrides Buu being harmed by a gun in any case (though Buu has a very elastic body so, yeah)

Doesn't change the fact that fictions generally have guns harming characters they shouldn't be

pym-ftw

The reason we have things like Pis is for characters who are written by people who don't know the character, the creator & sole writer can't be written off or your arguing showings bias.

Goku isn't Buu. Buu was just healing from blows, that's not durability.

Lol @ trying to reach, planet buster = planet buster

Nonpoint at this point, it happened no matter how much it upsets you. Removing Buu and focusing on Goku his durability is still fairly wonkey with an obvious slant toward protection from energy attacks. I've theorized that the energy shroud function much like a GL shield where it can repel energy but can give way to more powerful physical blows.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by pym-ftw
The reason we have things like Pis is for characters who are written by people who don't know the character, the creator & sole writer can't be written off or your arguing showings bias.

Moar special pleading, still doesn't change the fact that fictional showings won't be completely consistent, and being harmed by a bullet once does not contradict every other durability feat in the series ever

But yeah, you either take the same logic in fiction, or you don't take said logic at all, otherwise you look like a complete hypcrite

And DBZ characters survive attacks from eachother, and they bust up mountains physically and kick eachother through islands, causing massive craters in the process

It genuinely sickens me to see people who fail to see that there are different levels of planet busting

Planets come in different sizes and have varying GBE levels

"I'll take a single low end showing and act like that invalidates everything else which is way above it"

Unfortunately for you, vs debating doesn't work that way

ScreamPaste

And who makes the rules? You? This is a bunch of nerds arguing about fictional characters fighting, we're not unionized or standardized.

vs debates work however they feel like working at the time, and frankly I'd rather it not devolve into 'character with the most math-wanked outlier wins'.

TheTyrant

Originally posted by Astner
No. What he's saying is that there's a difference between short-distance coordination and long-distance coordination. So basically kid Goku could run at ftl and outspeed a flash of light for a short period of time yet adult Goku couldn't reach that speed or anything close to it at all despite trying his best to cross Snake Way as soon as possible? The difference in speed is way too massive for that reasoning. You can easily argue for ftl reflexes and combat speed (as in punching and kicking) but anything other than those?

pym-ftw

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Moar special pleading, still doesn't change the fact that fictional showings won't be completely consistent, and being harmed by a bullet once does not contradict every other durability feat in the series ever
But yeah, you either take the same logic in fiction, or you don't take said logic at all, otherwise you look like a complete hypcrite
And DBZ characters survive attacks from eachother, and they bust up mountains physically and kick eachother through islands, causing massive craters in the process
It genuinely sickens me to see people who fail to see that there are different levels of planet busting
Planets come in different sizes and have varying GBE levels
"I'll take a single low end showing and act like that invalidates everything else which is way above it"
Unfortunately for you, vs debating doesn't work that way So you applying durability feats which are not the character in question is how we should determine durability? Derp
I don't think you understand what a hypocrite means... Or you don't understand a single writer of a story is beyond reproach.
So you admit your talking out your ass on a planet buster being &gt; than another planet buster with no evidence.
Debating theory is literally all vs debates are... Unless you are Akira Toriyama in which case why are you downplaying events you wrote bro?

pym-ftw

Originally posted by TheTyrant
So basically kid Goku can run at ftl for a short period of time yet adult Goku couldn't reach that speed or anything close to it at all despite trying his best to cross Snake Way as soon as possible? They had light speed to faster-than-light reflexes in beginning of part 2 but in terms of movement or "blitzing," they didn't get to that level until Perfect Cell and full power SSJ Goku. outside of teleporting, what FTL moment are you talking about?

TheTyrant

Originally posted by pym-ftw
outside of teleporting, what FTL moment are you talking about? In the manga, Piccolo's blast reached the moon the moment it was fired. There's also Cell's Kamehameha reaching space within Goku's IT disappear and reappear interval.

If you want to go higher, Whis flew across billions of light years in like 20 something minutes.

pym-ftw

Whis appeared to be teleporting as he is never really seen flying anywhere.

Originally posted by pym-ftw Whis appeared to be teleporting as he is never really seen flying anywhere.But he didn't teleport since teleportation is instantaneous and in the movie he was clearly shown to be flying and then accelerating.

http://i43.tinypic.com/a47602.gif

Yes I know and within the disappear and reappear time Cell's blast had already left earth.

Which is why I didn't say they were light speed or faster in movement at the beginning of part 2.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by pym-ftw
So you applying durability feats which are not the character in question is how we should determine durability? Derp

Yeah, because this would be the first time an entire series is scaled to a few, or in many cases, a single fe... oh wait

And you don't seem to understand that fictions are inconsistent and that low ends exist in fiction regardless of the fiction

Your "durr same writer so there are no low end showings" non sequiter is just that, a non sequiter and that's all it's ever going to be

You're an idiot. The amount of energy required to bust a planet varies depending on the GBE and size of said planet

For example, Krillin in the late Saiyan Saga would be in the low end zettaton range, whereas the Death Star superlaser from Star Wars was calced in the quintuple digit yottatons, Buu's Death Ball was calced in the septuple digit yottaton range, all three are planet busters, but they're on different orders of magnitude

Point is, vs debating works by taking the most impressive feat of any character and assuming it to be an accurate portrayal of their abilites, ignoring the presence of outliers of course

pym-ftw

...krillin is a planet buster

GG Troll

StealthRanger

Well if BoSS Piccolo can bust the moon so violently that he'd be in the zettaton range, and Krillin was more powerful than Raditz who kicked Goku and Piccolo, then yeah

To say nothing of him through later stages of the series, should be more powerful than Freiza by the end of the series but not sure

Nice appeal to incredulity though

ScreamPaste

Mathwank pls go.

Also Even Goku in his base form isn't as powerful as Frieza was by the time of BoG, so Krillin certainly isn't.

StealthRanger

So it's "wank" if you don't like it? Okay

What is this, SpaceBattles?

pym-ftw

It's Kmc where feats &gt; baseless speculation.

NemeBro

And blowing up a planet with an incredibly large explosion is a far better feat than blowing up a planet with the bare minimum explosion.

StealthRanger

I also assumed it was a place where wank is used in proper context, not as a catchphrase alternate for "that violates my preconceptions so It doesn't count", aka, what SpaceBattles do when a character/verse is more powerful than they think it should be

But yeah other than that, yeah I don't see any speculation

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by StealthRanger
So it's "wank" if you don't like it? Okay

What is this, SpaceBattles? It's wank when you start (mis)applying numbers to things authors have no conception of, and basing entire debates on who has the biggest and most mathematically stretched outlier, like say, they do at OBD.

You need to stop pretending nerd debates are standardized. There is no council that sets rules, no one who decides which canon material is admissible, and which canon material is not. There is no union.

pym-ftw

Originally posted by NemeBro
And blowing up a planet with an incredibly large explosion is a far better feat than blowing up a planet with the bare minimum explosion. ...? Are you arguing Friza destabilizing a planet &lt; Buu destroying a planet. If so agreed, if your saying that Buu shot the power of the Sun then it's just baseless speculation at best full on wank at worst.

Are you still mad at me?

Sacred 117

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It's wank when you start (mis)applying numbers to things authors have no conception of, and basing entire debates on who has the biggest and most mathematically stretched outlier, like say, they do at OBD.

You need to stop pretending nerd debates are standardized. There is no council that sets rules, no one who decides which canon material is admissible, and which canon material is not. There is no union.

I've said this before, "debaters" on these sites think more like mathematicians than writers, and thus, they rely on improper methods that ignore who a character really is to draw their conclusions. I'm sure we can all name a time when "who's fastuh/stronguh/toughuh" became the only discussed point in a thread.

Say what you will about DEATH BATTLE, who's been admittedly wrong a number of times (something I've attested to myself), they at least try harder than most I've seen (here or otherwise) to reasonably justify their verdict with something other than some selective ("ultimate&quot measurement exaggerated by mathematical rhetoric.

pym-ftw

...Death Battle is embarrassingly poor at research

Astner

BloodRain

Ahh anarchy.

banana3

There's no such thing as split dura, energy is energy

Sacred 117

Originally posted by pym-ftw
...Death Battle is embarrassingly poor at research

They're no worse than most forum goers, seeing as most of them miss/forget just as many details.

Anyways, it's not their research I'm referring to, it's their reasoning. Sure, they're (definitely) not always correct, but they at least make a more honest effort to explain themselves, which is something I wish more people would do.

ScreamPaste

Sacred 117

While I understand the point trying to be made, the problem with "standards of debating" is that none of them are official or true because no one can agree on them, and even then, who's to decide what they should be? There's no elected committee to set these standards into place, and even to change that by selecting any alleged authorities would be a decisively limited undertaking that requires the same level of division we're currently met with.

bbrem123

what speed do you have to be going at to be invisible to the human eye?

pym-ftw

There are a ton of variables like size and distance from you.

Generally the porting around style in anime is viewed as a trope and we use other things as speed feats that are far easier quantified.

NemeBro

Originally posted by pym-ftw
...? Are you arguing Friza destabilizing a planet &lt; Buu destroying a planet.

Yes.

Not really. If the explosion was violent enough to reach small star level, then it was violent enough to reach small star level.

I was never mad at you, My son.

pym-ftw

Small Star level would destabilize the solar system and destroy multiple planets... Buu isn't doing that.

I'm not sure why we are pretending Frieza actually destroyed Namek in one blast.

cdtm

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Small Star level would destabilize the solar system and destroy multiple planets... Buu isn't doing that.

To be fair, neither was Solaris the Tyrant Sun.

Not that I think Buu is anywhere close to one shotting a star systeml, let alone a galaxy.

cdtm

Originally posted by pym-ftw
There are a ton of variables like size and distance from you.

Generally the porting around style in anime is viewed as a trope and we use other things as speed feats that are far easier quantified.

True enough. But there's also Goku outright vanishing for an extended period against Piccolo, in the middle of an open ring, with a crowd of people watching (Which includes Roshi and his high end bullet time feat, Kami, and the other ki using humans)

StealthRanger

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Small Star level would destabilize the solar system and destroy multiple planets... Buu isn't doing that.

Welcome to fiction where battles between planet busters only cause small craters

Also, even star busting would have you a few OoM off solar system busting

But yeah, if the planet was burst apart violently enough to be small star busting, then it was

Because he did :distracted

pym-ftw

Did you contradict your first statement and then contradict the second statement immediately...

If the earth was replaced by a small star the Solar system would be destroyed...

R u trolling or something on the last part or just lying/dumb

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by bbrem123
what speed do you have to be going at to be invisible to the human eye? At close range? About 90 mph

StealthRanger

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Did you contradict your first statement and then contradict the second statement immediately...

Point is, not going to lie when I say generally we tend to cherry pick things in analysing feats, ala ignoring secondary effects

Fact of the matter is unless the author is a hard sci-fi writer or whatever, he's not going to give a shit if his character went around the circumference of world a few times in seconds but didn't cause massive sonic booms and frictional heat that fried continents or whatever, or if he fired energy blast that vaporised a massive amount of matter the the point where lava was spewing out of the ground (which would be vaping 30-50 km of ground) or whatever but didn't cause massive blastwaves that would cause an extinction event or some shit

To put it in simple terms, only the feat itself matters

Basically: lolfiction

Oh no, all I was saying is that the planet was burst apart that violently and in such a short time frame, hence it is in the septuple digit yottatons, which is the GBE of a small star of some shit

Also refer to above "only the feat itself matters"

&gt;accusations of trolling
&gt;coming from the same guy who said Freiza Saga DBZ was only Mach 5
&gt;and uses low end showings as valid evidence, when they should just be ignored

You realize the energy the sun generates in only like, 90 petatons of energy every second, which is piss compared to DBZ characters energy output, right?

Hell, on SDN, when they calc'd the Death Star's superlaser, the amount of energy behind it was more than that of the amount of energy the sun generates every 7000 years

You abuse that word as much as SpaceBattles does

Astner

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sure, when done right, and with a grain of salt. But the numbers are beginning to supercede the feats, as if the calcs done on those feats are as canon as the feats themselves, which they are not.
Now you're mixing up the quantification of feats with the extrapolation.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Slippery slope fallacy on the second point, not sharing a unit of measurement didn't stop the international sale of goods in the old days, and it won't stop the exchanging of arguments now, but to pretend there's some specific authority on which canon happenings are valid feats and which aren't is silly and it come off as pretentious.
Please stop with the completely unrelated analogies.

You can still debate with an intuitive foundation, it's just that a lot of debates will be subject to ambiguity, and there won't be any real answer.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
You abuse that word as much as SpaceBattles does
I really don't think there's any serious standards in regards to grammatical use of slang.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Astner
Now you're mixing up the quantification of feats with the extrapolation.

Please stop with the completely unrelated analogies.

You can still debate with an intuitive foundation, it's just that a lot of debates will be subject to ambiguity, and there won't be any real answer.

I really don't think there's any serious standards in regards to grammatical use of slang.
Extrapolation is worse, but even quantification is easily abused.

The analogy is perfect, two people of similar but different systems with different opinions of the value of goods and no governing body to decide for them.

And yeah, we agree here. Often there won't be a real answer. My issue isn't with fictional debates themselves, though, so much as the way SR's post implied there was some authority on which feats count that had decided this previously and laid down criteria, when none exists.

StealthRanger

Perhaps, but I was referring to his use of the word "wank" as a version of saying "it's too powerful for me/I don't like it so it doesn't count", like what SpaceBattles does when they see feats/calcs that makes a verse/character they don't like more powerful than they want them to be

Well just saying vs debates should have some set of house standards, otherwise you end up like MVC or SpaceBattles where shit's just all over the place, eg: Magneto can go from stomping Hal Jordan to being too slow to reliably fight Kenshin

BeyonderGod

The dbztardness.....

Reflassshh

^

pym-ftw

Originally posted by pym-ftw
The linear scaling in Dbz is bs. Don't use the times tables to extrapolate or you get nonsense.

No, because even base Goku by the Buu saga was class 40+ in his lowest showings, and while power levels cannot be used linearly, considering that base Goku by BoTG is still weaker than Frieza, and SSJ1 let Goku surpass Frieza while on Namek, the amp from such a transformation must be substantial.

If you were talking base forms only you might be close on the strength, but probably only strength. I'll let someone else handle the rest because I just don't care enough to recall speed feats and shit.

pym-ftw

??? So he's stronger based solely on baseless assumption? I'm sorry but you realize that sounds crazy.

bbrem123

Originally posted by pym-ftw
The linear scaling in Dbz is bs. Don't use the times tables to extrapolate or you get nonsense. Could not agree more. Good luck trying to get others to accept it though...

carver9

The lowballing here is crazy. Crazy thing is, Frieza admitted he used nearly ALL of his power to escape the spirit bomb. So the Frieza that tried to destroy planer Namek was weakened, exponentially. Also, they are stronger than 40 tons. Goku as a child was stronger than this and they are faster and more powerful as a well.

Reflassshh

Originally posted by carver9
The lowballing here is crazy. Crazy thing is, Frieza admitted he used nearly ALL of his power to escape the spirit bomb. So the Frieza that tried to destroy planer Namek was weakened, exponentially. Also, they are stronger than 40 tons. Goku as a child was stronger than this and they are faster and more powerful as a well. So after that he started to use his %100... weakened?. Also, it has to be noted that he destroyed the planet by blasting namek's core.