I believe we have proven it. The prophecy stated that "If we're all g.OD's children....what's so great about jesus"? Each of us including Bucky, has proven how insignificant his story is. It's like listening to a SOTU and trying to find a shred of truth in it. Highly unlikely.

Let's just get rid of it and move on to greater beliefs- like we can all live in peace and togetherness if we really want to- without g.OD's unholy involvement. There's just too much misery cast in stories based in doubt and uncertainty like the bible.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

Of course the Gospel of Q is hypothetical. As I stated, anthropologists frequently piece together mythical stories from ancient societies in attempts to understand the nature of much older root texts which no longer exist. The similarities in the more recent mythical stories are considered to be overwhelming evidence of the existance of an older root text. This is a widely accepted practice in the science. Why should the myth of Christianity be treated any differently than the myths of the Mayans, for instance?

Your comment about the fundies using John as their preferred text is interesting. Leave it to those idiots to put forth the fairy tale gospel as fact.

Correction of an overstatement by me: The authors of the Gospel of Q did not unequivocally state that Jesus did not exist. Rather, from their research, they felt that, while a person of that name may have existed, the character was most likely based on a compilation of many different teachers of the philosophy.

I don't agree Dog. Mythos, and associated psychodrama, are very important parts of living a full life. The *real world* that we can scientifically experience is an infintesimally small fraction of all we can conceive.

Indeed, I challenge anyone to reach the source of thought, and of intellegence. Merely eliminating thoughts from our consciousness does not eliminate the observer, and as David Bohm so poetically put it, it takes an observor to make the statement there is no observer.

While mythological concepts of an anthropomorphic God may soon become passe, I have an experience, as real as sunrise, that there is something beyond conscious thought. What it is I wouldn't even begin to try to describe, and yet, it is probably one of the few things I can truly say I know.

Mythos provides us with the psychodrama that opens us to the possibility that this gnosis is real, it gives us an experience of the implicit wholeness of being. That mythos becomes dogma is not the fault of the Gods, that is man's doing.

And don't forget that science itself is nothing more than dogma. There has never been a *scientific theory* that has remained true. All have been proven false eventually, as will those we currently hold, in all probability. Actually, to say *proven false* is probably a bad way to put it. Better to say *only true in a limited domain*. Newtonian Mechanics is not invalid, or untrue, it merely is ONLY true at a certain scale, in a certain domain, while in other domains it becomes either horridly inaccurate (relativity) or wholly wrong (quantum mechanics). None the less, in a game of pool, it works just fine.

So it is with mythos. In a certain domain, mythos provides us with the theoretical field to manage our experiences. While one might say that mythos provides that which science has not yet explained, we can see in the work of many modern scientists that this may not be as true as we once imagined. Either we have come to the point where mythos is part of science, or we have uncovered the mythos that we called science. Either way, as Einstein, Bohm, Penrose, and many many others of the very best minds of our time have noted, myths are a necessary part of the human experience.

What you object to, I imagine, is dogma, not mythos, for you have your myths as I have miine, and yours provide you with the implicit unity of your experience, as mine do for me. Dogma (the socialization of mythos into an order of power and repression) is certainly something we can do well without.

Understanding, and embracing, our mythos is as much a part of being free of dogma and repression as any amount of political activism. The Constitution is a useless piece of paper to a person so enslaved in dogma that every breath is ordered by God. But this is not the intention of mythos, it is the abuse of it, jsut as Merchantilism isn't the intent of Capitalism, it is the abuse of it.

So I would say what is so good about Jesus is that in a few rare cases he has awakened a soul, and a heart, to the implicit reality of being. How can one read the words of Matthew Fox and not be touched deeply by his love and compassion? And yet, his story is a perfect example of how mythos is destroyed by dogma. Father Fox has been gagged and silenced by the Vatican for his wonderful understanding of the Christic mythos, and his very relavent observations on how it opens each of us to more fully experiencing life by realizing the wholeness that is *reality*.

As a teacher I will note that out of every 100 students I find maybe one that truly gets it. The other 99 follow the rules by rote and pass the exams and move on. I do not teach to the 99, I teach to the 1. How can we imagine it is different with Jesus? Even he notes how stupid his Apostles are, and blesses those who, having never heard his words or seen his face, grasp his ideas.

Yes, but you could make it based on something real and safe to believe in, not some fantasy story that has all the nutritional value of a Kelloggs breakfast cereal packaged in a box that contaminates from products by DuPont. It is harmful to children and other living creatures obviously, seeing as how the world has developed into a nihilistic apoclayptic vision. We have made enemies out of everything we encounter except our religion. Perhaps it is time to lay the blame where our beliefs really lead us and find something safe and healthy to believe in. We have to believe in something- let it be real- no more pretend stories. This will still satisfy our need to believe, but will not cause unhealthy preconceived notions about purpose and meaning.

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I challenge anyone to reach the source of thought, and of intellegence. Merely eliminating thoughts from our consciousness does not eliminate the observer, and as David Bohm so poetically put it, it takes an observor to make the statement there is no observer.

The source of thought is imagination. If you can imagine a creator or supreme consciousness, then it is real. If you cannot imagine the same then it is not there, and that is real. The basis of fact in either case is belief. We are what we believe. There is nothing more than that. You are a victim of your need to believe- either in your belief or your sense of meaning or purpose. If you can just shake free of this and just believe that you have to believe in something, then stay away from imaginations. Make it real and be happy as well.

Believe in the society of humans, in love of humanity, in the peace of the earth, in the love for our planet, in the space between chaos, in the stability of your place in the universe. Keep it simple and love the things you can see hear and grasp. Forget the stories and psychological manipulations and get real. There is no g.Od's there is no son of g.OD's and there is no mythos, only fear and illusion that govern our will. If you can get past your imagination and find the source of your needs it all comes down to fear and sense of purpose. That is how we all arrive at meaning in our lives.

Myths are only a theme that resounds through our history because we cannot come to terms with our mere reality. Because of this uncertainty we are in the mess we now occupy. It is a primitive reality based on our imaginative psyche, that once we master, is seen as one more barrier that prevents us from progressing to the next level of human evolution. It is the mere fact that we can be fooled by our own psyche that we can never imagine some other way of being. You must find the reason to believe in something beyond the mythos to shake free of its hold on the mind.

Once again- 'If we're all g.OD's children... then what's so special about jesus? " We all have the potential to be like the g.OD's in thought and be above the meaning and purpose that we imagine is our reality as humans. There is nothing holding us back from what we could be except ourselves and the traps and snares our mind and time has set for us. Start with that as your source of thought and build your ideas from there. If you're not willing to challenge your preconceived notions then you will never rise above the challenge.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

Believe in the society of humans, in love of humanity, in the peace of the earth, in the love for our planet, in the space between chaos, in the stability of your place in the universe. Keep it simple and love the things you can see hear and grasp. Forget the stories and psychological manipulations and get real. There is no g.Od's there is no son of g.OD's and there is no mythos, only fear and illusion that govern our will. If you can get past your imagination and find the source of your needs it all comes down to fear and sense of purpose. That is how we all arrive at meaning in our lives.

How is that any different from belief in some anthropological being floating on a cloud? What is society? Who's society? Why place your love in matter, in objects? What about the huge amount of data that every human receives every day that never even registers? A human receives some absurdly amount of bytes of data, and registers only a small fraction of them. For instance, auras are well within the visual acuity of a human, yet, most of us do not see them. The trouble with placing all this belief (and it is a ton of powerful energy) in something so temporal is that you have to believe each step of the way. Is your visual accuity perfect? Your hearing? Does your nervous system relay information accurately? Does the brain register it accurately? The answer is no, according to current research. The vast majority of our experience of society and the world is lost to us. And there is every reason to believe that by the time it registers it has been through layers of conditioning, filtering, abstraction, imaging.

The most simple reflex cannot be explained. Place your finger in a flame, you will pull it away, at least until you learn to over ride the reflex. Ok, now catch this. We understand the way a nerve message is sent, exactly. Sodium and Potassium gates along the nerve send an ion charge from one end of the nerve to the other. Each gate must open and close, and the time required is known. BUT the nerve reflex happens before the message could possibly get to the spinal chord, much less the brain. This means there are parts of our experience we cannot even register, since we literally never get the chance. our only experience of pulling away from danger is a memory, long (in nervous system time) after the event is resolved.

How much of the rest of the world is like that? Where is the line over which we can trust all this conditioned response to become an accurate picture of the world? Like the world of quantum effects, the closer you look at it the more illusive it becomes. Now quantum effects have been found at incredible macro levels (in particular, in connection with certain organellas of the cell called microtubules). The line at which one effect ends and another begins is at best fuzzy.

The ancients pointed out that all the world is *maya* (illusion), and some physicists would begrudgingly agree. In one view, reality is simply a collapsed probability wave that has an infinite potential before it is observed, and only selects a state at the point of observation. All the world is waves of probability. What causes the collapse? What is observing events that aren't being observed but most certainly are happening? These are not theological questions, these questions are being asked today in physics labs around the world. And this is pretty fricking mainstream, too. On the edge we hear things like *holographic* and *intrinsic order of wholeness*.

So to imagine that the world or society is a *safe* place to place your faith has no real value over selecting *Jesus* or *A Blueberry Muffin* or *the voices in my head*. It is all mythos.

How much of the rest of the world is like that? Where is the line over which we can trust all this conditioned response to become an accurate picture of the world? Like the world of quantum effects, the closer you look at it the more illusive it becomes. Now quantum effects have been found at incredible macro levels (in particular, in connection with certain organellas of the cell called microtubules). The line at which one effect ends and another begins is at best fuzzy.

Wow! Great stuff by you and DO.g both! Very impressive guys! I love it!

Alki, good arguement for an organic universe.

To put it a little more succinctly, where does an intestine end and an asshole begin?

I found this data. It is estimated that we receive around 400 billion bits of information every second. Our awareness is of a mere 2,000 bits. This means that 0.0000005% of sensory input is actually analysed and used. In other words, 99.9999995% of the experiences we have are somehow *lost*, at least at our current state of awareness. I like to remember that we use almost none of our brain, something like 14%.

Gee once again I find disappointment in your stance. It is too bad that you are nothing more than another MSM devotee. Suddenly it makes sense since you're admitting to be a main stream teacher to a bunch of children. It is very important that we have people to continue the Main stream propaganda machine. It starts in our homes and spreads out to our education systems and religious institutions. The disinformation triumvirate. The government just sits back and coordinates its dissemmination. Why didn't you say you were a Main stream religious media supporter. The greatest story ever told becomes the oldest lie continued on. If you feel satisfied that spreading lies and believing them as the truth is a satisfactory way of learning virtues, then you should jump on the Bush bandwagon. It is all you're doing by admitting that if one needs guidance in life it is easier and better to go along with the story. If this is what you truly believe, then you don't get the meaning of my line about the fact that "If you're not willing to challenge your preconceived notions then you will never rise above the challenge." I feel sorry for you. You will go on with the notion that lets you see what you want to see, or don't want to see, or pretend to see or can't see is what may or may not guide your thoughts about life. Why can't you see it for what it it is and not what you want it to be. It is what it is and unfortunately it is based in lies. Science and religion could be one but they are not meant to be that way, it would be too easy if they figured things out . Instead they mesmerise and extrapolate their story until it is lost in its diverse meanings.

Alk- All I asked you to do was to ground yourself in the things that count and believe what can be easily believed. We couldn't all be the chosen people with absurd laws based on handed down archaic themes of social conduct, so we invented a new ideal that placed us above the original themes, al ittle more updated and offered eternity as a reward. Can't you see that it is crafted, just like science and politics over thousands of years and perfected to fit our psyche? If we're all children of god then we can all come to terms with a belief sysyem independant of the structure of present belief. It doesn't work, the way it is set up now, because it is intended to be the excuse for our actions with each other, not to solve our actions. It is time to shed it and come up with a new better system with humanity and its sharing and caring, compassion as our main concern. Saying this is human nature is the best way we can approach it. Saying it can't be done makes it so. It is time right now to reprogram our direction, and we can do it, if we are told what to do. It is being done now, it developed this way in the past and it can be done right from now on.

Take for example your obsession with trying to find a difference between Mercantilism and Capitalism. This obsession to find a difference is comical. Face it, the only difference is they preceded each other, they're spelt different and you say the words differently. But it's all the same. It is about ways for the rich to rob from the poor. Robin Hood in reverse. The objective of changing the name was to somehow make people believe that they have a method of becomeing part of the rich mans game, and that some progression was made. It just perfected a next step approach. The objective was the same, eventually the oligarchy would become the controlled form of business once the ideals of corporationism was reestablished. Since the monopolists of industry couldn't be everywhere at once, this is why they allowed those with money or who were safe investments to start business' and engage in a form of mercantilism, for the country to grow. Now that they have established their country and order to chaos, they can impose their dictatorial monopolistic vision of ancient feudal controls over the masses once again. Back to square one , that is its intent. We could change all that as well. We just have to be taught a new way to be.

Alk wrote-

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And don't forget that science itself is nothing more than dogma. There has never been a *scientific theory* that has remained true. All have been proven false eventually, as will those we currently hold, in all probability.

The theory of science is to explain how and why things work. Any number of reasons can be used to explain why anything acts as it does. But if you put a little faith in yourself and understand it does it for a purpose then no one needs to worry about whether we retract our hand from a flame as long as it does it. Perhaps survival is such a given basal concept that we require nothing more than a stimulus such as a flame to get a response. The amoeba automatically moves away from a hostile stimulus without any apparent nervous system or brain. A plant will bend towards light for a purpose, for food. You are dead set on bringing your science into a discussion about whether the jesus story as it is told in a book is the way it happened. Are you trying to prove that you can obfuscate and divert the thread? Is this just another example of how you wish to argue semantics and not semiotics. like the Bush neo-cons do? It was a simple question and you wish to twist it into wild examples of economics, nervous reactions, an esotheric discussion about thought origination, something about some crackpot Bohm and other non sequiters. Stick to the topic- "If we're all GO.d's children... then what's so special about jesus?"- instead of all your cut and paste logic. I can cut and paste a different view of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul if you like.

What could be so special about believing in lies. Does it make it more real? Is it just better to have lies to believe in and find solace in that, or does that open up a whole new area of belief, that since being based in falsehoods makes ones beliefs nothing more than a diversion, a substitute for real thought in all aspects of ones existence? It is a way for the elite to control and manipulate as well as offload the plight of the poor to the churches, to give them a sense of purpose. Ignore the social contract and any safety nets that the corporate run government may have as a mere conflict of interest. Religions have always been around and they have always been true to their believers. It is always this way. Stick to the beliefs we tell you are true and you will be accepted by your peers. This is your motivation, to hold even your job, obviously. Conformist attitude has got us into this situation the world finds itself. Poor jesus the rebel, if he were here on earth listening to what people are saying and doing in his name now adays, he'd be puking all day.

Which brings me around to shoeless question about the anus and intestine. Truth is that it is a continuous chain of sections that are blurred by connections from one end to the other. The problem is that with both ends capable of crapping or puking, or receiving something in, or farting or belching, one tends to ignore the crap that flows out of each end. The only thing different seems to be that one end has the only round muscle in the body while the other end only appears round. Crap goes in crap comes out. Depends solely on what you believe is the real end. All connectins are obscured by function.

All I'm saying is that we have created a myth out of belief that fits the stimulus. This has very little to do with what the content is or why it developed the way it did, or how it gets spread. It is for the sake of existence. It fulfills our given basal concepts of existence and so is attributed as truth, fact, the lines blur, something we react to without understanding why we are drawn to it. It just satisfies our needs to be who we are, and do what we do.

We can do better than this without the lies attached.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

Ah, Dog! You get so defensive when truly challenged. You fall from high prose to rank insults. Let me begin by saying that I have every right to my world view, as do you. The purpose of dialouge isn't to *win*, friend, its to open the mind, to explore the new ideas another consciousness presents, to test your world view for accuracy, and when necessary to make such changes as are required to keep yourself *on track*. On track is a subjective term, and the reason Americans had such freedoms as religion and speech. I can no more tell you what is right than you can tell me what is right. Society sets a baseline for right and wrong, but it can never define the individual's own personal approach.

I am not trying to change your mind about anything. I am simply stating the way it looks from my side.

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It is too bad that you are nothing more than another MSM devotee. Suddenly it makes sense since you're admitting to be a main stream teacher to a bunch of children.

Did I say I taught children? Why do you assume that? As a matter of fact what I teach isn't even for average adults, its for highly specialized professionals. It is hardly mainstream, either, its about implementation of alternative healing programs based on Traditional Chinese Medicine, and one of the main topics is *how do we get around the social/governmental prejeduce against this?*

As to MSM in my life. I will soon celebrate my 5th anniversary of banning the babble box. I don't often read papers or magazines. I read a couple news sites, but they are hardly mainstream by any standard.

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It is all you're doing by admitting that if one needs guidance in life it is easier and better to go along with the story.

Go along with what story? I don't actually believe this at all. My personal belief is that each individual is responsible for creating their *own story* one that matches their internal environment. Through growth and discovery we can each become better members of a society based on liberty and freedom of thought and expression. Like Jefferson, I see the biggest stumbling block to ideal government, anarchy, being the need for a highly educated and ethical populous.

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Alk- All I asked you to do was to ground yourself in the things that count and believe what can be easily believed.

And I pointed out that there is little that counts and nothing that is easily believed. Deciding what *counts* is an subjective, internal process. Ask any 10 people to name the top 10 concerns in their life, and you will have 10 different lists. If I was to say what counts to me, you would think I was ass-backwards. You are culturally, ethically and philosophically all but diametrically opposed to my notions of what *counts*. But what REALLY counts is that both of us can have our notions of what *counts* on an equal playing field, that we needn't fear from persecution for our notions of what *counts* and that we can experience what *counts* to us in ourt life.

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Take for example your obsession with trying to find a difference between Mercantilism and Capitalism.

Its not MY obsession. Its the obsession of everyone I know who is involved in free market development. That the Merchatilists have sold you on connecting these two words makes me want to throw your MSM comment right back in your face. When you have spent two decades building a business that treats employees as *valued members of a community* come talk to me about the differences between me and the Walton family. In the meantime, just let me say that I feel I am right and justified in continuing to point out that Free Markets make Free Societies, and Corporate Merchantilism is an evil that must be stopped at all costs. Besides, you have yet to make anything that approaches a reasonable argument against Free Markets, in fact, you seem to be for them.

I am curious to know why you have so much faith in the scientific method. Seriously. I mean, I certainly see the importance of it, at least in terms of pure science, and I totally validate the necessity of the rules and constraints upon the method to ensure accuracy. But at a deeper level I understand that it is exactly the format of the scientific method that dooms it to a narrow view of experience. One could equally say that the Chinese system of anylising Processes instead of Objects is more valid becauise it explains more in less terms. In truth, both are necessary. Head to any bookstore and browse the science section and see all the interest in Chinese thought by some very serious Western Scientists. Can you admit that perhaps they are seeing something here?

When I read your thoughts I get the feeling your idea of *science* is a bit outdated. You seem to be very stuck on the *object* level of *stuff* being what is important. Well, I agree, stuff is important, but stuff is not the Universe. The atoms and molecules and particles and whatever else you posit is *out there*, in the final estimation of current view, are not a complete explaination of *reality*.

So what do I think we should ground ourselves in? Life and living, and exploring what is INSIDE our hearts and souls. Being the best person I can be at every point in time. Caring for my fellow man, *love thy brother as thyself* to quote your less than ideal teacher, Jesus. I believe we are most gorunded when we are living NOW and in harmony with the intrinsic flow of reality *be like the lilies of the valley...* I truly believe that I make the most difference to society when I am fully me. Not what anyone, science, or some religious dogma, have to say about it. I can't explain this in X-ian terms and am left to quote my teachers:

Were you challenging me? Gee is it because I was sincerely trying to have a discussion with people, and in your anger and inner need to win that you assumed intonations of challenge out of criticism? Sensitive about losing? Perhaps you are more of an example of the sad state of the American pedagogy of assumed privilege and superiority that is inbred in the sub-conscious. Thanks Alk, you have done more to prove my point than I could ever do. Once again I'm disappointed by your shallow scientific view of the world.

I guess my point here was to prove something about what was so special about jesus, and you have been the perfect example of what is wrong in being fed lies all ones life, and not being able to shake free of them. You become the lie that makes the story of who you wish you were. The lie is, that if you can 't tell a true story, you create a 'Mythos' that fills the expectations you set out to fulfill. Creating a myth is indeed a science, for it is designed around the forces of the natural world, to somehow explain a supernatural experience. You do this by lying yourself into the person you wish you were, just like the apostles did.

It is gratifying that you positioned me as a person who has to win, because that usually means that someone here hates to lose. A person who accuses others of having to be a winner is usually that kind of person- you know the type- a sore loser. Jesus was positioned similarily by his apprentices. Except he fooled us all and became an ultimate winner- paving the way for others to lose but think they are winners also.

You have been lying all through this post haven't you? What would your jesus think? Come clean now Alk. You have to get your info from somewhere. You are saying that you don't get your info from the tube, as you have quit it for 5 years now. What a load of crap. Like I said some people are so full of it you can't tell which end the shit is coming from. The MSM includes newspapers, stories overheard, radio, newsstand rags, magazines etc. You cannot evade this and if you do, then you miss out on half the story, By evading half the truth out there you miss out on the half that is to be judged. So much for you being honest and as a sore loser you have to win. A game player, because you can't figure out why it is there is a game in the first place. There is a wealth of information you are missing and then you pretend to be informed. CNN is critical to watch because it teaches one how absurd and blind you have to be to believe the things in life we assume are truths. You are denying yourself an opportunity to compare doctrines by shutting yourself out from the flow of the mainstream. It can be a great teacher of how propaganda like the bible can be crafted to be believed by the masses of sheeple.

Like I said you teach children. Is it your role to be a teacher of standard American capitalist idealism as structured by the state to these professional children, because it seems you are a devotee of elite structure and so are willing to continue the great lie to whomever will listen. I am consistently opposing liars who espouse the elites song and dance, and I don't lie about my stance. Is that what bothers you? The fact that I showed you how plebian your stance on assumed privilege is? Sorry I hurt your feelings about your beliefs on Mercantilism and corporate supported consumeristic Capitalism. Ever since then you have been a sore loser waiting for your opportunity to show how much you have to win. Too bad. This is the same attitude that the apostles used to get even with their oppressors. It is a time worn pattern that is part of the jesus psyche- Lie your way into favor. It leads to non discussion, evading with themes and lies to substantiate ones stance. You are the one trying to bring a simple topic to an argument as you provoke through assumptions and accusations. It is an old trick that your friends the neo-con, neo- lib agenda setters have taught well. Pretend that it is the other person that started it and then justify with myths, tales and accusations. Bravo little man, bravo. This way you don't progress beyond what you have been taught, and push your preconceptions, as an agenda, to substantiate your programmed stance.

I don't have time to go over your posts and it would be a waste of my time searching for your contradictions, but there are some recent ones that show how you stray off topic to try and get your story into the picture.

Gee you are sure sensitive, busy looking for insults when none are intended. What's paranoid about a little challenge to your views. One thing is certain, that you leave everything open to interpretation and then double back to cover yourself quickly. Typical right wing tricks. At least I'm open and straight on. I am tired of your games and your "I have to win attitude" of the MSM privileged elitist wanna-be's. Pretending it isn't a game when you hate to lose. Really. Ever since I pointed out your absorbed attitude with capitalism, which is a win at all cost game people play, you try and cover up your methods. Nice try. I am busy trying to make people see that it is their inner psyche that makes them do what they do, while you accuse others of being what you could never be, honest and caring.

I remember your accusations of Catherine, oh man who can't see both sides of an issue. Tunnel vision. You're so with the moment. Like ADHD. You channel all your anger and fear into a small area of your thought and use that as a basis for discussion. It makes you jumpy and innattentive as you try to bring outside ideas with little relevance into the discussion. This is typical ADHD thinking. Got Ritalin? It might help your conditions. You speak of opening the mind, but yours is confined to patterns of privilege and assumed elitism. Good luck maturing when even those you claim to teach are like children who need their vacuum fulfilled with more empty rhetoric.

The answer to your question-

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how do we get around the social/governmental prejeduce against this?

-easy. Like all crackpot ideas, you must go up against the structure with a real example of something that works. You must go through the AMA to get at your capitalistic hearts desire- Big money. Same for Chiropractors and anyone else beating their heads against the system. I have to get through the simple minds of the conditioned animal here on earth, to get past the structure of their ideology and pedagogy to make them see that having a one sided view of life is easy- it is what we are. Seeing things as humanity must, is beyond most peoples grasp. I need not worry about your side since I have lived it for so long. Examples are prevalent in the videos of the rock and country music stations, the movies and sporting events we love to admire, more examples of the MSM. This is why I asked the question about "What's so special about jesus" and had to listen to the pat answers you and Bucky gave. Basically you both get off topic to try and espouse your standard answers as a form of logic. Attack and win is your motto. Cut and paste or get totally off topic. Meanwhile discussion is thrown out the window. If you can answer my question, you can go a long way in answering the question of life. Why are we here? I gave you a clue. "We're all gods children." So maybe start with 'Who Is god? And don't give the standard answer, because there is nothing special about jesus.

Work it and quit avoiding it. It was a simple question that you had to confuse, to get your win at all cost point across and avoid discussion by trying to bring your personal views into a discussion to make an argument with me, because of previous hostile feelings. You hate to lose don't you, Alk. It has even driven you to lying. Take your sensitivity to mercantilism and capitalism. It is stuck in your throat as an example of your anger principle. Let it go. It is one and the same and no one can be happy in a world where these forces exist. It is to support the elite and their wanna-be petty supporters, that is what it stands on. If you can't figure out what counts in this world then stick to your lies. That is something to believe in. It covers a multitude of sins of cause and effect. Sorry, another law of science that has been proven wrong. That and the law of gravity. I'm sure through your talent at mendacity you can prove that things fall up.

Why are you obsessed with my view of science? We learn from its application. It is invaluable in showing that religion has been wrong about many of its obsessions and so we can have faith in knowing it uses a formula based on the natural world and not inner musings. There is no reason why science and religion should be opposed to each other except that they have chosen this way to be. It is merely the inner psyche trying to live with tradition of lies and substantiate itself by ignoring fact with faith. If we are to progress then we must get past faith based logic alone and accept that fact is a basis as well as faith , for science does not have all the answers- yet- and even if it did, then we would be caught in a cold empty world of logic.

We could devise a new method of seeing our world/politics/faith, free of the lies we hold as our rock of foundation. Through faith in religion and facts of science and honest politics we can satisfy our needs to believe and begin the psychical/physical healing that our internal/external states need to move on. Simple isn't it. But it is so much easier to remain human animals than to progress to another level of understanding. Lies are easier to believe than working for solutions based on sharing, caring and compassion. You have proven that. The Dalai Lama has even taken to trying to understand the intertwining of science and faith, so some are working on this problem to better understand what assumptions have missed. It seems you're the one obsessed with science-

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I found this data. It is estimated that we receive around 400 billion bits of information every second. Our awareness is of a mere 2,000 bits. This means that 0.0000005% of sensory input is actually analysed and used. In other words, 99.9999995% of the experiences we have are somehow *lost*, at least at our current state of awareness. I like to remember that we use almost none of our brain, something like 14%.

These are what, facts? Prove it. You lie and lie and lie. The brain is in use at all times and it is constantly being used- all areas, all the time. It is a data absorbing unit that stores all our experiences as well as having a built in harddrive to draw from. Everything is there - all we have to do is retrieve it. As bits of info get shunted further into our memory they make up who and what we are and why we become that way. So the material is there it just becomes overwhelmed wirth constant use and immediate needs for say, survival, dominate for periods of time, as it speeds through its day. That is why we do so many dumb repetitive things daily. It programs us to the way we experience life by being programmed by the things we need to do and think to satisfy its pleasure seeking prerogatives. Your brain is the boss and it tells you how to deal with each moment. This is why we selectively choose how we function in this world. Only those who can see the bigger picture truly feel the way it channels us into our little world. This is what develops our self esteem and values we follow. Inclusion/exclusion is what makes it work. That is why we forget, make up stories to fit the moment, lie and follow the leader.

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God may soon become passe, I have an experience, as real as sunrise, that there is something beyond conscious thought. What it is I wouldn't even begin to try to describe, and yet, it is probably one of the few things I can truly say I know.

Either way, as Einstein, Bohm, Penrose, and many many others of the very best minds of our time have noted, myths are a necessary part of the human experience.

My favorite Gospel is Mark, which I believe to be the oldest. Jesus' teaching are presented in a very straight forward manner and there is little if any talk of Jesus being anything other than a teacher and healer. To me, his humanity rings very clear, and the easy style of the story makes it an enjoyable read. I come away from it feeling that Jesus was a good man, if not a bit of a foolish one.

A real experience, Hmmm. Great tell us about it oh wise one. Was it a moment of extreme cosmic bliss. an awakening, a temporal lobe seizure, a bout with ADHD? Funny stuff.

What is this vision you had? A temporal lobe seizure no doubt. The mind is truly the last mystery we have to conquer, for it is a revelation of its own creation. Myths are common and thematic to human experience. It is a rhythm like the seasons that guide us like using the stars- which coincidentally is where most myths become fact in our minds. Funny how heaven and voices from god all come from "Out There", isn't it? People of knowlege have always had to use their best guess scenario and so it remains our foundation of thought. You are no exception. Me, I rely on the emotion of the human condition to derive the points of contention between man and himself. The animal in the man is what controls the vision of serenity here on earth. It is the inner subconscious that triggers all our myths and beliefs based on fear and acceptance. Sex, food and death are the basis of human intellect and all thinking revolves around these concepts- our survival matrix. There, another clue to why we lie, cheat and steal. I give away too much about the simple ways life has to get straight. Good luck getting past those forces.

Mark is your favorite book? What does that mean? You've been indoctronated to believe that joy, love and happiness is in the"Book"? None of the accounts are consistent with each other so all of them are false and based on made up stories, molostly related to other myths from the past and wishful thinking. So how can any be taken seriously. Oh, I know, you love a good story especially if it isn't remotely based in facts. This is the MSM/religion that dictated our inability to cope with truth or the ahuman/animal paradox. You have succumbed to too many forces of conflict without being able to understand basic concepts. No wonder you are so confused and are ready to believe any lie you're fed. Tough to accept that we're all losers here when it is a prerequisite of living to be a winner. Or the shame that follows if you're not.

In summing up, your passive aggressive stance is not fooling me. You pretend to be understanding while performing ad hominem attacks, under the pretense of being understanding, caring and considerate. You stoop to the levels you would use to attack others when they ask you to come and deal with someone, like you're purer in virtue. Like scottK, at a whim when it is personal to you, you defend someones honour, but do the same to others. You are a phony and a lying cheat, so back to your foxhole and hide from the world in fear and anger, praying to your gods for solace or at least pretend to. While you lie your way through another conflict of ideologies, rest assured you are merely succumbing to your basal animal instincts and deserve the lies you live with.

Once again I repeat- If you're not willing to challenge your preconceived notions then you will never rise above the challenge. I'm not interested in your arguing but perhaps a dialogue on the topic would help. If you wish to debate over the semantics and semiotics of the purpose of gods and science, start your own thread and state your stance, rather than taking this post on a wild goose chase of slights and allusions.

If you want to discuss issues on this post, explain the few words I put down at the start of this post. Start with - "If we're all gods children... then, What's so special about Jesus?"

The source of thought is imagination. It is not myth or ADHD. If you can imagine a creator or supreme consciousness, then it is real. If you cannot imagine the same then it is not there, and that is real. Better to believe what you can see than what you can picture. The basis of fact in either case is belief. Either you believe what you think you see, or you see what you believe you think. It is all relative to what is real in your life. Imagination, lies or myth can't create or manufacture what is in front of you. Seeing it develop in your mind and believing it is real and testing its construction can only do that. Until someone can prove otherwise, nothing else matters. Such is the chemistry and science of the mind.

If you must lie or sway from the theme then you are evading the question. If you can keep your concentration focused, then the meaning can be broken down, and maybe you can stay on topic. Try to remain focused, for once in your life.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

Ok I read about umm 3 words of that. You are off in Bizarro-Doggy-land again, and I'll wait and see if you land any time soon.

I answered you question. You asked if we are all gods children, what is so great about the J-man. My short answer was that, at least in some rare cases, Jesus, like all great spiritual teachers, has illuminated the path of inner discovery, which offers a valid compliment to our sensory experienced world.

You counted that the experience of the sensory experienced world is enough. I said I don't understand how that could be true. You have yet to respond to that.

Maybe you better read more than 5 words. OK. Your passive aggressive idiocy doesn't fool me= you hate losing. Answer the question or get off the post. So for all the horror committed by this phony belief in lying, it is worth a few people "In some rare cases"believing in phony religions. Yeah right. In your fantasy world of chinese drugs maybe. Why not go teach the children that story.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

So for all the horror committed by this phony belief in lying, it is worth a few people "In some rare cases"believing in phony religions.

Define phony. I am not sure there is a phony religion. Inherently, I do not believe religion can be either true or phony. Religion is based on belief, and belief is, by defination not a provable assertion.

I assume from this statement you believe that there is some answer that would encompass more than *in some rare cases*. I would love to hear it. Unless you are willing to accept *in some rare cases* you will have to mandate it, and once you do that, you cross the line from mythos to dogma. Once mythos is gone, once the connection that is personally made is replaced with a mandate, there is no path, no search, no freedom to experience the beauty and wonder of the universe.

I stand by my answer. Jesus, as did all the great teachers, provided us with a path, and for those who truly search, it is a good path. That few rarely search is not the fault of the teacher, it is the fault of the student.

Jesus himself tells the sotry of the farmer casting seed, which falls some upon the stones, some in the weeds, and some in the fertile earth. The analogy seems clear enough. Jesus gave us the teachings, it is up to us to walk the path of those teachings, and that path is a personal one.

As to horrific acts, was it the religion that committed those acts? Are they true to the teachings? Or have power hungry men distorted the myths for their own personal gain? I believe that the later is most likely the truest answer. I am not sure it is fair to blame the teaching for the actions of those who lie and distort the teachings for political/social ends. Should all scientists be held liable for Nagasaki? Should we damn technology because the greedy few use it without restraint and are destroying the planet with it? Of course not, it is absurd. Likewise, the teachings should be taken at face value for what they are by an individual who will incorporate the pertainent (to them) messages into their own lives.

No one can give another gnosis, in that much the existentialists were right, we are each alone.

Perhaps you are more of an example of the sad state of the American pedagogy of assumed privilege and superiority that is inbred in the sub-conscious. Thanks Alk, you have done more to prove my point than I could ever do. Once again I'm disappointed by your shallow scientific view of the world.

I guess my point here was to prove something about what was so special about jesus, and you have been the perfect example of what is wrong in being fed lies all ones life, and not being able to shake free of them. You become the lie that makes the story of who you wish you were. The lie is, that if you can 't tell a true story, you create a 'Mythos' that fills the expectations you set out to fulfill. Creating a myth is indeed a science, for it is designed around the forces of the natural world, to somehow explain a supernatural experience. You do this by lying yourself into the person you wish you were, just like the apostles did.

Phony is a term that describes what people do to manufacture ideas that become realities- like Mary being a virgin impregnated by some randy god and giving birth to a half god/human. Tell me you believe that horseshit and prove that you aren't just doing what you're doing on this post without any anger or frustrated jealousy for me putting down your beliefs about your love of the bloodsucking horror of capitalism.

Grasping at one pointless straw after another, quoting words from a phony religious text to substantiate one pointless illusion after another- where one fails, grasp another to better illustrate your ability to be programmed by memes of propaganda that have been fused in your brain, by years of browbeating in schools and at home. There's a great job waiting for you- Bush and Gonzales need you to instruct them on hypothetical illusions and obfuscation- the pervasive ways that governments and religions function- by making it difficult to draw truth, real truth from fiction. It is important to let the truth out, so we can get back to the important stuff, like phony religious ideals that hide the truth behind values and virtues, such as abortion, sexual orientation, bribes, distrust, myths and lies etc, and get on to the real issues in life that need to be answered. IT IS LATER THAN YOU KNOW, AND MUCH LATER THAN YOU THINK. It is time to start looking for REAL answers to REAL questions.

There are other interpretations of that farmer casting the seeds story, so I don't believe you can be a spokesperson for your version of its meaning. I think it's about people with ADHD, like you ,who are unaware that they have been cast out onto god knows what environment and don't care why or where they grow, scrawny or healthy. Or if one was to go back to the days when it was narrated it would be a story of the oppressor and the oppressed. It isn't as you see it. Thats a modern interpretation.

You wish someone to come along and mandate your choices for you because you can't think of any yourself. Well we're back to my statement about "What's so special about jesus" and we find out that "if we're all gods children" then we are the godlike potentialities that can live as good a life and craft and create as good a world, no a greater world than the gods could do, IF we weren't instructed and told we aren't capable of doing it on our own. This is what you believed and this is what holds you back. Do you not see the bible and religions as restrictions to freedom and choices? The devil is the anti-hero who gave us freedom of choice while god punished us for disobedience, yet somehow you see serving him/her/it as freedom! Those who truly search the path of lies build on those lies until they are off the path of truth and guided by their illusions.

Your problem is your ADHD, since you find it so hard to stay on target and discuss the topic, wandering this way and that like a lost little sheeple. I have noticed that no one is coming in to aid or help your argument(what it is) as they aren't so shallow as to contribute an ovation for the elitist manufactured, structured religious dogma of mythos. They'll let you cut your own throat and continue to gurgle out your bloodletting beliefs.

Yes it is religion that committed these acts. They created the differences between our cultures and between us, which gave it and us the right to identify which acts are wrong and commit them, for good or for evil. Again you are stuck in the present and neglect the past. At one time human sacrifice and sexual acts were acceptable and most religions committed these acts. As religions continued they became somewhat more "civilized" and tried to let go of their past. Religion is a cancer that is eating up our reason.

You go on to ramble on and on about Nagasaki etc. Einstein stated that he wished he had done something else more harmless rather than pursue his interest in the atom problem. It is always after the fact that one sees the error in ones ways, but by then it is too late. And what man does with his inventions has always been to better his technology to destroy and kill invariably, at the expense of his fellow man. We know armageddon is coming and we won't be satisfied until this god given cancerous religious prophecy is fulfilled. How and why we get there and it overpowers us is merely a question of time, while we believe in the lies that become ingrained in our psyche because of what we believe and what is within us.

If you believe the existentialists were right then you are already doomed to their nihilism. It is pointless trying to get through to you so FO+D. A true existentialist statement. You are flying-around-in-alkemi-illusion-world without hope of landing in this lifetime. Maybe next one, Right? You probably believe that too. Next life you'll do better. This one you may go ahead and suffer alone in.

Finally, something to think about in your fabricated illusion filled diseased world- here in this world right now, are suffering from complications, of cancer from materialism and greed and selfishness and arrogance, and elitism, and poverty, and racism, and perversion, and obscenity, and misogyny, and idolatry, and militarism, and violence, and it is a cancer that's eating away at the very essence and nation of what God created of human kind to be-- for he created us! To have ruler ship and dominion in the Earth and not allow the Earth to dictate to us. But now what has happened is that the very Earth, the very creation that he put us in charge of is now controlling us. And instead of us reproducing other people who look like God, who talk like God, who act like God, who think like God, who do business like God, who govern like God, who entertain like God, we are not reproducing anything because the cancer is eating away at us.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind