For myself, if they never built another Man or Temple again, it would have no more effect on my BM experience than Opulent Temple not going this year will. (Actually, less, as I've spent more time at OT than at the Temple, and I think the Man is the most boring piece of art on the playa).

I don't think the lack of the Temple or Man would affect the experience; however, I do like the Man because it serves as a nice guiding light/fixture for the playa. I also do think people should experience having the entire population of BM (or most of it anyway) gather at that single burn. It's like a big tribal bonfire signaling the end of festivities.

As for the Temple: the Temple is also always a pretty art piece, and I'm amazed by its construction, but I don't ascribe the same reverence to it that other people do. The temple acts like some sort of cargo cult artifact manufactured and built to channel some spirituality from the past that people don't understand. Still, I'm glad that some sort of structure like that is there to attract that kind of mood, and separate it from the Man burn when it burns. People who want that "spiritual placeholder experience" can stay for the Temple burn; the rest of us can leave early.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

DrYes wrote:I think the Man is the most boring piece of art on the playa).

art?

is that what they are calling the man these days?

I agree that I will not use the mark “Burning Man,” the logos of Burning Man, or the likeness, drawings or representations of the Man or of the Black Rock City map, or any other trademark of Burning Man, on any website (except for Personal Use, as described in Paragraph 5) or in any other manner, commercial or otherwise, except for nominative or classic fair use.

I can't speak for the other logos and brands, but in the case of the man symbol that's a part of the Burning Man brand identity, it's based on an art piece. It's okay that you like it or don't get it, it's still art.

Keep the temple and man.. But Move that trash pile called first camp to the burbs. Put some art in it;s place..First camp looks like tobacco road.. Maybe more people would get behind LNT if that were not the shining example a city dump.

I know I'm late to the convo. I read the first 2 and last 2 pages, hope I didn't miss anything critical.

I love the temple. I worked on the 2011 temple and utterly adored it. Every year I spend significant time hanging out at the temple. The way people fill the temple with their humanity, their bodies, their losses, their joy, inspires a deep reverence in me. Last year I had a huge tearful moment as the tectonic plates in my head and heart continue to realign.

But. I totally agree that it's become institutional. Something that potentially powerful somehow seems to naturally tend towards institutionalization. Not a huge concern for me personally, but one I recognize. As much as I loved it, I think the 2011 temple dominated the landscape in a way that's not entirely healthy for the overall burn (my perspective may be skewed on that one).

So, what to do? I think the CORE project kinda fits what Yggy started this thread with - a collection of smaller art works, each of which could attract reverence from the population and which all burn together.

But more importantly, I think we need to remember that David Best did not (so far as I know) set out to start an institution in 2001. My understanding is that he made a beautiful, heartfelt structure that was adopted by the Burning Man community, so much so that they wanted it back again and again. So the question "how can we build something like the temple that's not institutional" seems a bit irrelevant to me. Build something wonderful that expresses your heart in a powerful way and maybe it will be adopted by the community at large. There are twice as many people now, and no prime real estate like the 12 noon clock position out there, but any project out there this year could become "the next temple".

unjonharley wrote:Keep the temple and man.. But Move that trash pile called first camp to the burbs. Put some art in it;s place.

OH?! you mean you dont think rolling out the bone tree from the ranch every year isnt exciting anymore?!

It's about as exciting as watching people in silly robes fire up lights that you can barely see. I don't see why we can't do away with lamplighters - the technology to have solar-powered LEDs on the poles in cheap enough now, and getting rid of the expense of fuel, wicks, feeding & "robe"ing volunteers, maintaining the carrying things & hanging poles would pay the the conversion easily. You'd just need a couple of people from DPW (two teams of two people, one for each side of the city) to go-cart by & make sure the lights were on, and LEDs might actually be visible when you need them, like in a dust-storm. It would leave a nice chunk of real estate in the Center Camp area for a more interactive camp (or two, or three).

I mean it's not like the lights are art, they're just infrastructure that's become institutionalized.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Ahhhh...I see. Do I detect a little bit of Holier than thou here? That is a big problem with anything becoming institutionalized. Don't get me wrong here. I actually like the oil lamps as opposed to using LEDs. But it does seem to have become a bit of an institution. It would still be possible to get all the lamps lit without having a single camp dedicated to it.

thats whats on the stickers that larry (well, really it's, you) pays for and are handed out to prospective volunteers at the various events that they hold in san francisco. like decompression bbq a newbie, etc.

lamplighters were surely loudmouth ruffians well before the DPW took the top honor....

it has nothing to do with holier than thou, and everything to do with actually being better than everyone else!

trilobyte wrote:I can't speak for the other logos and brands, but in the case of the man symbol that's a part of the Burning Man brand identity, it's based on an art piece. It's okay that you like it or don't get it, it's still art.

At this point, isn't it more than, "hey look at this groovy sculpture, let's burn it and dig the cool colors", it's more like, let's build an alternative community around it, then burn THAT.

Ahhhh...I see. Do I detect a little bit of Holier than thou here? That is a big problem with anything becoming institutionalized. Don't get me wrong here. I actually like the oil lamps as opposed to using LEDs. But it does seem to have become a bit of an institution. It would still be possible to get all the lamps lit without having a single camp dedicated to it.

Can we do away with DPW and just get people to put up/take down the trash fence, put up the spires, lay out the the city, strike the city thru Oct... without a dedicated camp? Sure, but why.

Illuminate. Navigate. Celebrate.What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?

If this is the case, according to the statute, religious congregations such as the Temple burn will require a 1-mile-radius exclusion zone for serving alcoholic drinks (does the Blood of Christ count?). As it would be difficult to regulate that at the camp level, especially given that the current radius would include about a third of the city, the Temple will probably be moved out further into deep playa. That's a tall order, even given the size of BRC, and the new exclusion zone would encompass nearly all of the deep playa:

There are also Temple placement ramifications. The Temple is a large, bright structure that may disturb the environment of some of the deep playa art and exploration with extra traffic and light. It'll also be a longer trek to get to the Temple -- about twice its current the distance from center camp. Walking out there won't be quite as fun. On the other hand, the isolation may give the Temple that extra peacefulness, and the sound camps won't need to worry so much about aiming their audio.

There are also restrictions on noisy or boisterous behavior during the Temple burn/meeting. This would probably prevent any obnoxious drones from flying around during the Temple burn congregation; however, due to obscenity/decency laws, it may also require that "obscene" garb and behavior also be restricted from the vicinity of the burn. Fortunately, the distance of the Temple from the trash fence will probably mean that you can continue to twerk there during the burn, and these behavioral restrictions should only apply during the burn itself, not the remainder of the event. Who knows how well this will be enforced as well, maybe just for egregious behavior.

Let's just hope that the Man doesn't earn the designation of a religious altar!

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Eric wrote:It's about as exciting as watching people in silly robes fire up lights that you can barely see. I don't see why we can't do away with lamplighters - the technology to have solar-powered LEDs on the poles in cheap enough now...

I mean it's not like the lights are art, they're just infrastructure that's become institutionalized.

Box Burner wrote: I actually like the oil lamps as opposed to using LEDs. But it does seem to have become a bit of an institution. It would still be possible to get all the lamps lit without having a single camp dedicated to it.

I know some of the above was probably tongue-in-cheek and this isn't really the thread for it AND I'm way late to the party, but I'd like to submit that the art offered by the Lamplighters isn't the lanterns themselves so much as it is the lamplighting procession: we are the oldest continual performance art on the playa (unless you count the burning of the Man of course).

Part of the reason I see the act of lamplighting as art is because it's become an established, ingrained custom. Everybody wearing the same outfit, moving as a team, doing the work every evening, etc. all adds to the presentation. We insist on doing things the hard way with manual labor - them poles ain't light! - and kerosene rather than adopting the LED lights that at first might seem a better choice because we're striving to preserve the tradition. Our art is partially about continuity, from place to place, night to night, and year to year. We light without fail. Also there are practical reasons why kero remains a better choice than LED, but that's beside my point.

Also, the nightly processions are inherently participatory - we involve hundreds of "off the street" laborers volunteer participants every year. For some of these burners, it's a real chance to be an active part of the art rather than a passive observer/consumer. First year burners, self-professed shy burners, burners who don't view themselves as particularly artistic, and those coming from a long way or with few resources have all expressed gratitude that they can be part of the art by volunteering with Lamplighters.

Yes, it's pretty cool to see those lit lanterns all in a row and I'm proud to know that I did a small part to lead lost burners back to the city or out to the temple. But I'm much, much more proud to have helped put a smile on a burner's face, or even tears of gratefulness, when they look back to see that same row of lights. Thank you, I say, it was your hard work that lit the city - your city. The solemnity and customs of the procession give the participants the sense of being a contributing part of something larger than themselves.

tl;dr I'm late to the discussion but maybe the Lamplighters' art is the procession, not the lanterns.

Also we have a kick-ass bar that's open whenever it's not lamplighting time.

When he lights his streetlamp, it is as if he brought one more star to life, or one flower.When he puts out his lamp, he sends the flower, or the star, to sleep.That is a beautiful occupation.