Comments on: 5 Broken Cameras and other “ground truths” from the Occupied Territorieshttp://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/5-broken-cameras-and-other-ground-truths-from-the-occupied-territories/3919/
Women Against War supporting non-military ways of solving conflictsFri, 31 Jul 2015 00:06:00 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.2By: Linda Muralidharanhttp://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/5-broken-cameras-and-other-ground-truths-from-the-occupied-territories/3919/comment-page-1/#comment-15690
Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:25:12 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15690#24, To simplify matters a little, I see the position taken in support of Israel’s continual stalling, adding settlements and the like (along with the US refusal to take any meaningful stand or impose sanctions) as a case of might makes right.

Whatever Italian or Irish or French Canadian or Guyanese or other heritage we may claim, the issue is we need to stop the brutality, stop the rule of the bully. What has happened in the past cannot be undone to any great extent.

We can, however, have some control of the present and the near future.

And just because the “principals”, as you so antiseptically refer to them, are acting badly does not mean that the United States of America needs to support them.

Real, living breathing humans in great numbers are suffering daily. It might be a dead Israeli whose family mourns. It might be a live Israeli who mourns that her country has lost its moral compass. It is certainly many men, women and children who are deprived of material goods, education, and security. Many who have lost loved ones. Many who have disabling injuries.

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Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:42:18 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15649How long, Linda, must we be burdened by the actions of our ancestors? Do the Iroquois, who preceeded the European settlers deserve our remorse, or are they simply villans who drove the Mohawks from their ancestoral lands and what about those who were there before the Mohawks?

My heritage is Irish, my mother being born in County Kerry, and I married a girl of Italian background. Should I have rejected that possibility choosing instead to focus a lot more attention to the historical certainty that Romans brutally persecuted and subjugated the Celts under awful circumstance several hundred years ago? How far back is bitterness and retribution supposed to extend, when does it become counterproductive?

One of the few lesson I remember from Physics is, “two forms of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time” a concept that history suggests applies fairly well to people. Different people either join together to form a greater whole, as envisioned in the creation of these United States (E Pluribus Unum – Of many, one), or they establish their own, separate, entity.

Either option works, as long as separately created neighboring entites agree to coexist peacefully and respect each others right to shape their own destiny. The 3rd option is to force one’s will on another by conquest, which is an option chosen throughout man’s history, with at the very best, mixed results both in the short term and long.

I submit your opinion of the wisdom of the “Court of World Opinion” may be a tad overblown, as even through today, a stark majority of influences forming external judgments and support are clearly based on parochial interests and objectives, rather than the specific interests, or needs, of the direct participants involed in dispute.

To a point, external interests can serve as mediators, but in the extreme will inevitably be guided by self interest in pursuing the spoils remaining from failed negotiation between the principals. Rightly or wrongly, the Israel-Palestine entity was established, by right of conquest following WW II as decided by an organization created by the victors. That result clearly did not provide a consensus between the principles, and it is doubtful any future settlement that does not provide an overall consensus, acceptable to both parties, will fare any better.

External influences may serve to provide necessary guidance and incentive to the principals, but it is, and will always be, the principals who must decide and agree on the sacrifice each must make, for the benefit of the other, to reach a consensus both principals can accept, respect and adhere to. Forcing one side to submit to the other, either by force of arms or intimidation, coercion and edict from external sources will only restart the onging struggle back at square # 1.

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Tue, 04 Dec 2012 13:56:03 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15648HollyS, Thanks for your comments, #21 and 22. I understand your feelings and ideas but have some disagreement with some of them.

For instance the idea that Hamas is merely “a terrorist organization” is an oversimplification.

Like many liberation movements there is a wing of Hamas that has resorted to military actions. It has also carried out attacks against civilians, which is definitely illegal and immoral behavior no matter who does it. But there are also many other parts to Hamas that involve social services to the Palestinian people, negotiators who work locally and on the world stage for peace, and community builders within the environment of the occupation. For more about how Hamas can work non-violently within communities that choose such actions see the documentary Budrus.

Ultimately for peace to prevail the political wing of such an organization, such as the one that was elected to represent the people of Gaza, needs to be recognized and negotiated with. For a good example of how that has worked in the past [although with far too many tragic deaths on either side] Look at how peace finally came to Northern Ireland, when Shin Fein (the political wing) became a part of a negotiated peace and both the IRA and the Protestant paramilitary forces gave up the armed conflict. It still took recognition, the righting of wrongs and a lot of negotiations.

In your second comment: I disagree that President Obama does not back Israel. He’s made several strong statements about Israel’s right to “defend itself” but none about the treatment of the Palestinians and their rights to defend themselves against military attacks. But even if you’re correct about his personal feelings there is the rest of the government to consider. And look at the statements of State Department personnel about the Palestinian bid for recognition at the UN.

Almost all of the US Congress of both parties is deeply under the influence of AIPAC and it’s financial contributions, years of propaganda and the threat of labeling anyone who criticizes Israel as “anti-Semitic.” That whole atmosphere needs to be changed and it won’t be easy. But it can be done with hard work at publicizing the more real and current narrative for all to see and understand.

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Mon, 03 Dec 2012 17:07:16 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15646and might I also add that President Obama does not personally back Israel…. when the Republicans are finally ousted during the next midterm electioelection….and they will be…. you just wait and see what happens. Israel is gonna have to behave.
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Mon, 03 Dec 2012 17:03:53 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15644neither side can be trusted Israel is building whatever, wherever and whenever they want ….and Hamas IS a terrorist organization.
I say we send in 300,000 UN peacekeepers and open the borders….every single border between the two…..eventually everybody will get along….
]]>By: Mickie Lynnhttp://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/5-broken-cameras-and-other-ground-truths-from-the-occupied-territories/3919/comment-page-1/#comment-15625
Fri, 30 Nov 2012 15:16:19 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15625Good morning Linda,
As I read your comment, which is most welcome, I’m at work on an article about the vote in the United Nations last night to recognize Palestine as a non-member observer state. I think that the vote demonstrates the further isolation of the United States, as a partisan supporter of Israel without regard for the needs of Palestinians and of Israel in the court of world opinion might (if the world is fortunate) mark the start of a different approach to peace between Palestine and Israel where the smoke-screen of the past 20 years of negotiations is blown away and the world acknowledges the illegal acts of occupation, settlement building, theft of resources and mistreatment of an occupied people and calls for an end to such injustices!
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Fri, 30 Nov 2012 03:20:35 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15623I think it is good that Mickie gives us easy access to different voices expressing the facts of history and the facts on the ground today.

As a by the way kind of thought, though, I was just thinking about the people who have Albert’s view of things and what the implications might be. We the American people are the benefactors (most of us) of people who viciously stole land from earlier inhabitants and drove many of their communities to extinction. By word and deed many Israeli leaders (not likely speaking for the majority of the population but nonetheless having the power to further their aims) have said they intend to continue benefiting and perhaps benefit even more in the future for their stealing of land from the Palestinians.

This began decades ago and continues today.

Does Albert’s and the President’s support of this concept mean that it will be okay and justifiable if some superior force comes along some day and takes over the United States for the aggrandizement and benefit of its people?

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Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:32:11 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15617k_rod, Here’s a link to an excellent and detailed report from Egypt that you can either watch, listen to, or read a transcript of. It includes much more information than I could give you, being reported by well known Egyptian journalist, Sharif Abdel Kouddous, who also serves as a correspondent for Democracy Now!

Things are in flux now with the extent of the protests and the threatened strike by the judiciary but you can get a better idea of the many issues and possibilities involved. Hope that this is helpful.

Protests continue in Cairo’s Tahrir Square after Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi issued a decree last week, seizing wide-ranging powers and protections from judicial review or oversight. Morsi made the move one day after he helped secure a ceasefire ending Israel’s assault on Gaza. More than 500 people have been injured in clashes between police and protesters since the decree was issued. Morsi has tried to reassure his detractors that the measure giving him sweeping new powers is temporary and not intended to concentrate power in his hands. He proclaimed the decision just a day after he brokered a deal to end Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip. We go to Cairo to speak with Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous.

]]>By: Mickie Lynnhttp://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/5-broken-cameras-and-other-ground-truths-from-the-occupied-territories/3919/comment-page-1/#comment-15615
Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:52:21 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15615Thanks to the Observation Deck article this morning featuring a link to a very good Glenn Greenwald article I discovered this link to an even better article published in the Guardian Newspaper this past Tuesday that details the reasons for the continuing conflict between Israel and the occupied Palestinians and the part that US unconditional support of Israel plays in its continuation.

It’s Palestinians who have the right to defend themselves

The US and Britain stand behind Israel’s onslaught on Gaza. Justice requires a change in the balance of forces on the ground

Seumas Milne ,The Guardian, Tuesday 20 November 2012

…It’s that to portray Israel as some kind of victim with every right to “defend itself” from attack from “outside its borders” is a grotesque inversion of reality. Israel has after all been in illegal occupation of both the West Bank and Gaza, where most of the population are the families of refugees who were driven out of what is now Israel in 1948, for the past 45 years.

Despite Israel’s withdrawal of settlements and bases in 2005, the Gaza Strip remains occupied, both effectively and legally – and is recognised as such by the UN. Israel is in control of Gaza’s land and sea borders, territorial waters and natural resources, airspace, power supply and telecommunications. It has blockaded the strip since Hamas took over in 2006-7, preventing the movement of people, materials, and food supplies in and out of the territory – even calculating the 2,279 calories per person that would keep Gazans on an exemplary “diet”. And it continues to invade the strip at will.

So Gazans are an occupied people and have the right to resist, including by armed force (though not to target civilians), while Israel is an occupying power that has an obligation to withdraw – not a right to defend territories it controls or is colonising by dint of military power.[…]

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Mon, 26 Nov 2012 02:38:58 +0000http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/?p=3919#comment-15613To #12 AJ – Great observation. How insightful and objective. If, on the other hand, during the lead-up to the Iraqi war, some more people with backbone DIDN’T simply go along with the “obviously loaded and leaning filter” and took a bit more seriously those assessments “different from assessments of others, especially those that actually matter”, there would be several thousand fewer American deaths and perhaps hundreds of thousands fewer Iraqi deaths. And our federal budget deficit a lot lower. Oh yeah, “everybody” said Saddam had the WMD, had the al-Queda connections, had the nuclear weapons program, etc. etc. You might consider thinking a little bit harder and longer before expressing such an obviously non-objective judgement.
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