Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Tamago wrote:

I'm not 100% sure if that was something the govenment santioned or not, but I heard that some farmers up north paid people to deal with their 'pest' problem.

But I do know about the 'Stolen Generation' a term used to describe the Aboriginal children, usually of mixed descent, who were taken away from their families by government agencies and church missions between 1900 and 1969. They claimed it was for their own good but these days, the practice is recognized as a human rights violation.

I heard a lot about the latter -- there must have been something going on about it in the mid-nineties or something, because there was a lot of coverage -- but the former I always wondered if my uncle was making up. It seemed to me really hard to believe, but I have also stood in the exercise yard of Dachau's concentration camp and been completely unable to grasp the concept that thousands of people died where I was standing. I will always remember a guy on the bus afterward saying in complete incomprehension: "But why did any of them stay? Why didn't they just leave Germany?" And I was thinking "Because they didn't believe it. Even when they saw it for themselves, I don't think they really believed it." And that's a scary thing.

But in the end, I have to admit I'm a Bad White Thieving Bloody Colonialist because whenever the Maori complain that we stole all their land, I look at Australia and think: "Okay, dudes, that's rough -- but look at what the Aborigines got!" Although with all that said, there was a time when the European settlers here were pretty damn convinced the Maori were a couple decades off extinction (due to exotic disease and the fact that the introduction of muskets made inter-tribal warfare a bit more lethal than usual). They were very nice about it. "There passes a noble species..." Thank God, though, somebody got off their ass and did something about it.

But yeah...we do have some rather hysterical "cultural differences," even if they're not necessarily funny at the time. The Pakeha population was all up in arms when a highway development cut off the edge of the farm where Frank Sargeson was buried, but the Maori won a protest to stop a similar development when Ngāti Naho said they couldn't build there, there was a taniwha present. You can imagine the uproar, as because of issues of "cultural sensitivity" in New Zealand, Maori culture tends to get more leeway than Pakeha. And then the Pakeha freak out. It's part of the cause of the divide between us, because although most of us are inherently sensible "she'll be right mate, just bloody well get on with it" sort of folk, it's perceived favourtism that really gets our dander up. Kiwis, generally, bring everyone down to one level. And this is because most of us come from a very class-segregated European background and we came here to get away from that.

It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

morosemocha wrote:

Interestingly though, it was considered bad manners to remark on blacks, or segragation -that whole Bad Things Don't Exist If We Don't See Them theory. It's sort of like... I'm trying to think how to describe this, it's wierd... Okay, the whole black community as a second class mentality? That was it, exactly. You never explicitly reminded someone that they were lesser then you, but you never let them forget it either, and most importantly, you never forgot it.

Now, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid being one of those "all white people are out to get us" kind of black people while I type this, so I apologize in advance.

That is basically the "If you can't see it, it's not there" reasoning. (Not to be confused with, "If you can't see it, it can't see you.".) Anyway, that's the perspective some people I've seen take on the current state of racism. It's a bunch of crap, to put it bluntly. Black men may not be getting hung from giant trees anymore for making eye contact with a white woman, but people still get passed over for jobs because they're not white.

As a matter of fact, the receptionist position has opened up at my job. I want to apply for it but there's a good chance that I'll get passed over for it because I'm not white, at least that what the other black woman in the office told me. She says that they're not going to want to have "two of us" working that close together, especially since we're the only two black people in the office. Now, honestly, I don't believe it, or at least I'd prefer not to. So is she unnecessarily paranoid, or am I simply fooling myself?

Now, I grew up in a small town in Louisiana, but we've never had any visible race problems. Everybody either knows everybody, or they know someone who knows them. All of the discrimination I experience is from within the ranks, as it were, because I'm "too white." I went to an all-black elementary school, and everyone made fun of me because I "talked funny". Eventually, "talking funny" turned into "talking white" by 7th grade. As a result, all the friends I've had the longest were black, but all the friends I still have are white.

Of course, then I get to college where I start having to deal with black people asking why I don't hang out with them. They ask if I think I'm better than them because I have white friends. On the bright side, I wound up not keeping roommates very long. But then I have to put up with the dirty looks I'd get.

But as for the whole slavery thing, I'm over it. The government let us go, so let it go. However, it's never going to be forgotten because it was a fundamental element in what made the Americas what they are. Look at the Caribbean, Brazil, and various regions of Mexico and Central America. All of these places are populated by descendants of freed slaves or escaped slaves, or in Haiti's case, slaves that revolted. The fact that we're even in this half of the world is always going to be a reminder of what happened centuries ago. We'll never know if we would have even come over here on our own, sooner or later. The fact is we're here now, and all the "what if's" in the world can't change it, so let's move on.

Although, it's not really just slavery that's the issue. It's about what happened afterward: not being allowed to vote, not being allowed to attend school, being spit on, giving us separate bathrooms and water fountains, having separate sections in restaurants. not actually being allowed to eat at restaurants, being hung from trees, being chased with large dogs and water hoses. It's the fact that black people were and still are seen as less than human, despite the fact that we've only been counted as whole people for about 140 years. My parents grew up before the Civil Rights era kicked into high gear. My grandparents were sharecroppers during the Depression and could only read enough to get by, and their parents were children of the last generation of slaves. All of them had their share of problems.

And I know that the only problem isn't black vs. white. I'm 1/16 Native American, myself. Several things that black people had rights for, Native Americans didn't get for decades after, despite constantly having their land taken away from them and being slaughtered for no other reason than being in the way of "Manifest Destiny." And let's not even get into what happened to the Aztecs and Mayans....mainly because I don't know that much other than it was terrible. The point is that everyone is always on the receiving end of racism and discrimination. Look how much it sucks to be Middle Eastern these days. It also sucks to be Indian because of the people that are too stupid to tell Achmed from Vijay on sight.

So, um....yeah, I'll be getting off of my soapbox now. *runs*

Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.It's so far and out of sight.I really need someone to talk to and nobody elseKnows how to comfort me tonight.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Actually, Raven, there is increasingly strong archaeological evidence that Africans visited America, and traded across the Atlantic, long before Europeans did. The Caribe peoples claim to be descended from African explorers and Native Americans. Cocaine has been found in millenia-old Egyptian mummies. For that matter, there are cases of African fishermen being swept away by storms and landing on the shores of Brazil by accident. It's harder to imagine that Africans didn't cross the waters before Columbus. It's just that the field of archaeology has been dominated by Europeans who found it hard to accept.

Sorry that I can't spell archaeology.

"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."-Truck NorthHonorary Hat Mafia Member

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Stormcrow wrote:

It's harder to imagine that Africans didn't cross the waters before Columbus. It's just that the field of archaeology has been dominated by Europeans who found it hard to accept.

Actually everybody came to America before Colombus.. that is not denied by historians and geographs(at least not in my college) the difference is that... the trip that trascended history was the Colombus one. It's true that several africans nations, vikings and chinese got first over here but nobody else knew except them, they didn't left records of those trips and didn't create a permanent conection between continents

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Romanticide wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:

It's harder to imagine that Africans didn't cross the waters before Columbus. It's just that the field of archaeology has been dominated by Europeans who found it hard to accept.

Actually everybody came to America before Colombus.. that is not denied by historians and geographs(at least not in my college) the difference is that... the trip that trascended history was the Colombus one. It's true that several africans nations, vikings and chinese got first over here but nobody else knew except them, they didn't left records of those trips and didn't create a permanent conection between continents

Things are only permanent until they end. Sounds stupid, but what I mean is, we don't know how long the relations between Africa and South America went on. They apparently came to an end at some point, but a lot of the details are still missing from the picture. For that matter, there are many records of African presence on the American continent, such as pyramids, carvings of elephants, and giant statue heads of African kings. The fact that cocaine made it all the way to Egypt is also quite significant. Granted I've been out of school for some time, but when I was growing up, the journey of Leif Erikson was viewed with some skepticism, let alone non-European contact. I think that this is beginning to change, but it hasn't filtered into the popular consciousness yet. Not in the U.S. anyway.

"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."-Truck NorthHonorary Hat Mafia Member

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Vikings are confirmed well enough but the Chinese, while they most definately had all the technology needed, didn't make records of exploring any directions except south and west and I've never heard of Africans crossing Atlantic in serious context, though purely technologically speaking they propably did have the means, as well. Could someone provide a link or few to these theories?

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Romanticide wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:

It's harder to imagine that Africans didn't cross the waters before Columbus. It's just that the field of archaeology has been dominated by Europeans who found it hard to accept.

Actually everybody came to America before Colombus.. that is not denied by historians and geographs(at least not in my college) the difference is that... the trip that trascended history was the Colombus one. It's true that several africans nations, vikings and chinese got first over here but nobody else knew except them, they didn't left records of those trips and didn't create a permanent conection between continents

It's OBVIOUS, not only the vikings, but the chinese. I mean, have you seen a Maya? You cannot tell the difference between a chinese and a maya.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

huzzah more interesting posts and yes i have known of the theory that Columbus was not the first to discover America...was he even the first European to discover it? ...and his ass was late.

"If all the world is a stage and all the people players"...then I demand a less shitty part or the ability to get off of the stage. Slowly my sanity slides, slipping, swirling, spiraling...Save Me I need Sleep...Shattering Soon. "RukaxTouga equals the Fourth of July" MY patriotic celebration...FUCK ME TOUGA AND RUKA NOW!!

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

SexingTouga24/7/365 wrote:

huzzah more interesting posts and yes i have known of the theory that Columbus was not the first to discover America...was he even the first European to discover it? ...and his ass was late.

Haven’t you heard the legend of the "anonymous sailor”? It says that a survivor of an European ship that got lost in the sea and came here told Columbus he had found land far away the Atlantic and that the reason he never took credit is that he died before the success of the Colombus one(or was assassinated by him) But even if it was true is also not counted as historians as it also didn’t transcend. A good book that talks about all this shit is “The invention of America” by Edmundo O’Gorman.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Definitely a legend... because Colombus was looking for a new route to get to India avoiding Venetian tolls, not wanting to discover new lands; well, if I think about it, maybe he assumed that the lost sailor had been in India On the other hand, he didn't know much matematics nor geography, and wasn't aware of the real distances from Europe to India going West (if America hadn't got in the middle ). Not being a land there, he would have dead in the sea, and it would have been his own fault: the perimeter and diameter of Earth were already well know for the experienced sailors (see Chinese, Portuguese, etc).

Edited because I suck at English. So sorry... Anybody wanting to point to my spelling/grammar/lexical mistakes, please?

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Epi_lepsia wrote:

It's OBVIOUS, not only the vikings, but the chinese. I mean, have you seen a Maya? You cannot tell the difference between a chinese and a maya.

Sarcasm or not? In the 'Net it's hard to tell. Just in case, I see no connections.

I believe there was some evidence, although not conclusive, that an Irish priest, St. Brendan ended up in South-America around 530, tried to convert Aztecs and actually came back. I'm not sure how credible the story is to modern historians, but it's known that he was one of the inspirers of Columbus in the idea of finding Asia behind the Atlantic.

EDIT:

Anybody wanting to point to my spelling/grammar/lexic mistakes, please?

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Lightice wrote:

I believe there was some evidence, although not conclusive, that an Irish priest, St. Brendan ended up in South-America around 530, tried to convert Aztecs and actually came back. I'm not sure how credible the story is to modern historians, but it's known that he was one of the inspirers of Columbus in the idea of finding Asia behind the Atlantic.

And that could explain why the aztecs view Quetzalcoatl as pale skined bearded god...

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Romanticide wrote:

And that could explain why the aztecs view Quetzalcoatl as pale skined bearded god...

Yeah, that's the idea among the supporters of the idea, as well as some cross-shaped idols apparently found in the Aztec ruins - I haven't seen pictures of those, so I have no idea how anecdotal that particular evidence may be, though and in any case crosses are very common symbols in many cultures without any connection to Christianity.

The story does describe what seems to be icebergs and volcanoes, as found around Iceland and Greenland, among other things, but the description of the land behind sea is rather fantastic and doesn't bear any direct relation to Americas - but it may well have become corrupted in oral form, before getting written down. Like I said, some evidence, but nothing conclusive, unless they find some obviously European objects from that era in the Aztec ruins.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Sorry to interupt any conversations going on, but since something I said was in here, and I've never technically posted here, I feel like I should.

Racism in good ole North Carolina... alright, I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll try. Racial stereotypes, like all stereotypes, come from something. They don't float around until someone snatches them up. Indians do run convinence stores, and African-Americans do rob them. Latinos jump the border. Caucasian people fuck their cousins. It's just the way it is. But that isn't everone. Because there are different types of people. You can be caucasian without being a redneck, just like you can be any other race without being their stereotype.

I'm kind of mad that I don't get any good racial slurs. I'm not calling anyone these names, or using them in an offensive way, I'm just stating for defense of my statement. Nigger, spic, chink... and what? Honkey? Cracker? Those suck. Someone needs to make a better racial slur for us.

And, I'd like to point out that it isn't fair that on EVERY SINGLE STANDARDIZED TEST I'VE EVER TAKEN, there is a box where you bubble in your ethnicity. It says African-American, Latino/Hispanic, Asian-American, Native American, Multi-Racial, White. Either it should say "Caucasian" or "European-American", or the rest should read Black, Brown, Yellow, Red. Really, this doesn't offend me, but that doesn't change the fact that if I were more headstrong it would.

Well, I've just ruined any respect anyone had for me.

ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

dollface wrote:

And, I'd like to point out that it isn't fair that on EVERY SINGLE STANDARDIZED TEST I'VE EVER TAKEN, there is a box where you bubble in your ethnicity. It says African-American, Latino/Hispanic, Asian-American, Native American, Multi-Racial, White. Either it should say "Caucasian" or "European-American", or the rest should read Black, Brown, Yellow, Red. Really, this doesn't offend me, but that doesn't change the fact that if I were more headstrong it would.

That always rubs me the wrong way, too. How do they decide which groups to keep track of? I would imagine at one point Italian-American and Irish-American were options, since they were the turn of the century Latinos, no? When did they decide to stop keeping track? Why keep track of Asian-Americans, what distinction is there to make such that their background should be a specter (or a boon, depending on what you're doing), while white people are just...white people.

dollface, I know that always sounds bad, but...I agree. I never feel justified in trashing the use of stereotypes because I'm very aware of how many apply to me. Just about every Italian stereotype that didn't originate in New Jersey.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Giovanna wrote:

dollface wrote:

And, I'd like to point out that it isn't fair that on EVERY SINGLE STANDARDIZED TEST I'VE EVER TAKEN, there is a box where you bubble in your ethnicity. It says African-American, Latino/Hispanic, Asian-American, Native American, Multi-Racial, White. Either it should say "Caucasian" or "European-American", or the rest should read Black, Brown, Yellow, Red. Really, this doesn't offend me, but that doesn't change the fact that if I were more headstrong it would.

That always rubs me the wrong way, too. How do they decide which groups to keep track of? I would imagine at one point Italian-American and Irish-American were options, since they were the turn of the century Latinos, no? When did they decide to stop keeping track? Why keep track of Asian-Americans, what distinction is there to make such that their background should be a specter (or a boon, depending on what you're doing), while white people are just...white people.

dollface, I know that always sounds bad, but...I agree. I never feel justified in trashing the use of stereotypes because I'm very aware of how many apply to me. Just about every Italian stereotype that didn't originate in New Jersey.

Actually, if I remember correctly, the current standardized definitions of ethnicity (which are, of course, a crock of shit) all come from the census. The way the census is written pretty well dictates what everyone else uses for their criteria, with some exceptions. I think the driving force behind the current set of definitions has been affirmative action. Which is, to say the least, problematic.

"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."-Truck NorthHonorary Hat Mafia Member

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

dollface, You mentioned that you didn't know any good racial slurs that refer to white folks, there are two terms, the first one is Blanco which means white but it carries a negetive conatation (A bit like how the term gajin in Iapanese just means foreigner but also is used as an insulting way) but if you really want the equivalent to the term 'Nigger' to use on white folks, then Guano is the perfect term to use. Guano as Epi can tell you is term that refers to birdshit and as birdshit tends to be white, its one hell of a slur.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

dollface wrote:

Sorry to interupt any conversations going on, but since something I said was in here, and I've never technically posted here, I feel like I should.

Racism in good ole North Carolina... alright, I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll try. Racial stereotypes, like all stereotypes, come from something. They don't float around until someone snatches them up. Indians do run convinence stores, and African-Americans do rob them. Latinos jump the border. Caucasian people fuck their cousins. It's just the way it is. But that isn't everone. Because there are different types of people. You can be caucasian without being a redneck, just like you can be any other race without being their stereotype.

I'm kind of mad that I don't get any good racial slurs. I'm not calling anyone these names, or using them in an offensive way, I'm just stating for defense of my statement. Nigger, spic, chink... and what? Honkey? Cracker? Those suck. Someone needs to make a better racial slur for us.

And, I'd like to point out that it isn't fair that on EVERY SINGLE STANDARDIZED TEST I'VE EVER TAKEN, there is a box where you bubble in your ethnicity. It says African-American, Latino/Hispanic, Asian-American, Native American, Multi-Racial, White. Either it should say "Caucasian" or "European-American", or the rest should read Black, Brown, Yellow, Red. Really, this doesn't offend me, but that doesn't change the fact that if I were more headstrong it would.

Well, I've just ruined any respect anyone had for me.

Oh, I don't know, I don't think cracker is that bad. Certainly not as good as kraut is for the Germans (I love that one). Though I might have a milder attitude about the white derogatory terms, since I get to enjoy the Jewish ones as well. I'm particularly fond of Hebe. Or just Jew, for that matter.

Cartman: I'm sorry I called you a Jew, Kyle.Kyle: But Cartman, I am Jewish.Cartman: Aw, don't be so hard on yourself.

I actually have friends that call me "the fucking Jew". Is that bad?

"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."-Truck NorthHonorary Hat Mafia Member

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

dollface wrote:

Sorry to interupt any conversations going on, but since something I said was in here, and I've never technically posted here, I feel like I should.

Racism in good ole North Carolina... alright, I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll try. Racial stereotypes, like all stereotypes, come from something. They don't float around until someone snatches them up. Indians do run convinence stores, and African-Americans do rob them. Latinos jump the border. Caucasian people fuck their cousins. It's just the way it is. But that isn't everone. Because there are different types of people. You can be caucasian without being a redneck, just like you can be any other race without being their stereotype.

I'm kind of mad that I don't get any good racial slurs. I'm not calling anyone these names, or using them in an offensive way, I'm just stating for defense of my statement. Nigger, spic, chink... and what? Honkey? Cracker? Those suck. Someone needs to make a better racial slur for us.

And, I'd like to point out that it isn't fair that on EVERY SINGLE STANDARDIZED TEST I'VE EVER TAKEN, there is a box where you bubble in your ethnicity. It says African-American, Latino/Hispanic, Asian-American, Native American, Multi-Racial, White. Either it should say "Caucasian" or "European-American", or the rest should read Black, Brown, Yellow, Red. Really, this doesn't offend me, but that doesn't change the fact that if I were more headstrong it would.

Well, I've just ruined any respect anyone had for me.

Actually, I agree. Stereotypes have to start somewhere. I'm sad to say I see a lot of people that fit those stereotypes, but I'm glad not everyone does. I refuse to accept those stereotypes as the ultimate truth, because not everyone fits them, and I'm glad about that.

Weird. Whenever I have a standardized test, it says "Caucasian".

Speaking of that.. what does everyone think of affirmative action? I did a small paper on it in my last English class and learned a few things, but I'm still confused.. In my opinion, I think it would be better to have scholarships for people who have good grades but are poor, and not for specific minority races - after all, minorities are more often poor than the majority. While I understand that the purpose of affirmative action is to make sure that minorities aren't discriminated against in jobs/college, I think it would just be so much better to have college applications without the option of providing your race. That way the use of race as criteria for their acceptance isn't an issue at all.

Of course, I'm very naive, and there's probably something I'm missing. Is there a reason why this wouldn't work? \:

On the topic of racial stereotypes.. stereotypes based on race itself seem more common for minorities than for Caucasians. For white people in the USA, you have your stereotypical rednecks, goths, preppy people, more conservative or hyper Christian, intellects, jocks, hippie-ish, your lazy over-patriotic fat man watching football, etc. But for minorities you have fewer stereotypes, or rather just one or two big stereotypes for the whole race. Why is this? I have my own thoughts about this, but for now I'll just ask this question and post my ideas later, since I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I think the reason that stereotypes don't really offend me is because I am a stereotype. I'm everything you expect me to be. I've mentioned before that my favorite word in the English language is "cliche", haven't I? Well, I am very cliche. [I wish I could type the accent. ] Personally, I find individuality overrated. Everyone thinks they're different, and in ways, everyone is. But you haven't got to make a big show of it. You have pride in your race? Wow, never seen that before. You don't? My god, you oreo! This is so new to me *sarcasm, sarcasm*. You don't care about pride at all, you love everyone? Peace core, hello! You hate everything? Here, I'll let you borrow my eyeliner.

Anyway, point being, I don't think my discard for race should make me racist. I mean, honestly, if I went out of my way to always treat minorities better, wouldn't that be the exact definition of racism? Treating people differently because of their race? The only race worth giving regard to is the human race.

[/philisophical bullshit]

ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves