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Geocaching, Forest Service and YOU!

Hello all, The following is a list of the people I have emailed to in regards to the issue of placing Geocaches in the Huron-Manistee National Forest. I am

Message 1 of 15
, Jun 4, 2002

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Hello all,

The following is a list of the people I have emailed to in regards to the issue of placing Geocaches in the Huron-Manistee National Forest. I am urging you to also write to these people. At this point, I think that we need to keep our emails friendly and inquisitive. Lets ask them for information as regards to Geocaching (they DON'T have any policy regarding it by the way), and kill them with kindness. Since the squeaky wheel get oiled first, lets all squeak together!

Red Alert, I just got back an automated response from Sen Stabenow. If you don t put your name AND postal address (to show that you are from the state of MI)

Message 2 of 15
, Jun 4, 2002

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Red Alert, I just got back an automated response from Sen Stabenow. If you don't put your name AND postal address (to show that you are from the state of MI) you will have wasted your time! So- make sure to please include your name and snail mail address at the top of your email to her!

Let s not go too far and stir up officials that have never even heard of geocaching and don t need to get involved yet. If you check the geocaching forums you

Message 3 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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Let's not go too far and stir up officials that have never even
heard of geocaching and don't need to get involved yet. If you check
the geocaching forums you will find that in most cases you will get
a "no" simply because they don't know and don't want to take
responsibility for saying yes. Contacting too many people could end
up with getting geocaching banned in areas that had not even thought
about it. On a national level the Forest Service does NOT have a
policy against geocaching in general areas like the NPS does. They
do however have areas where it is not allowed.

A little research reveals that "Federal Park" cache was placed in a
designated wilderness area north of Ludington and it also looks on
the map like the "Field of Ferns" cache was also in an area of the
forest different from the rest, at least it was colored differently
on my map from the surrounding forest. Wilderness areas are
absolutely off-limits and actually I remember seeing the one cache
when it was posted and thinking I should email the owner to inform
him but I never acted on it.

Bottom line is that without further information it is totally
possible that this is isolated to specific areas of the forest off-
limits to anything but leave-no-trace. Official contact should be
limited to those local officials directly responsible so that no
toes are stepped on that would perhaps taint alliances we may need
in the future. It should start as simple fact finding to determine
the official scope of the actions in the Manistee National Forest
specifically.

Rusty...

abxguy02

... I was told that it would be a sweep of entire forestlands for caches. Officers were extremely upset about the sheer number of caches on forestlands. I am

Message 4 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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> Bottom line is that without further information it is totally
> possible that this is isolated to specific areas of the forest off-
> limits to anything but leave-no-trace. Official contact should be
> limited to those local officials directly responsible so that no
> toes are stepped on that would perhaps taint alliances we may need
> in the future. It should start as simple fact finding to determine
> the official scope of the actions in the Manistee National Forest
> specifically.

I was told that it would be a sweep of entire forestlands for caches.
Officers were extremely upset about the sheer number of caches on
forestlands. I am trying to find out more details if they are going
to remove all, or only those in specific wilderness areas, etc.

ABXGuy

rustypayne

Here is the most current thread from geocaching.com on the subject: http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?

Message 5 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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Here is the most current thread from geocaching.com on the subject: http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?
a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=9250961364&r=9780944364#9780944364
titled "Forest Service to Ban Geocaching".

Here is Jeremy's position "Sorry but banning is BS unless I hear
from an official first. Hearsay don't cut it. - Jeremy Irish
5/21/2002"

Rusty...

Frank Rens

... Federal Park is definitely NOT in a wilderness area. It s in the middle of the Day Use area of the Lake Michigan Recreation Area.. And Field of Ferns

Message 6 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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At 10:37 AM +0000 6/5/02, rustypayne wrote:

>A little research reveals that "Federal Park" cache was placed in a
>designated wilderness area north of Ludington and it also looks on
>the map like the "Field of Ferns" cache was also in an area of the
>forest different from the rest, at least it was colored differently
>on my map from the surrounding forest. Wilderness areas are
>absolutely off-limits and actually I remember seeing the one cache
>when it was posted and thinking I should email the owner to inform
>him but I never acted on it.

"Federal Park" is definitely NOT in a wilderness area. It's in the
middle of the Day Use area of the Lake Michigan Recreation Area..
And "Field of Ferns" is just in a large clearing in the woods which
is frequented by campers, hunters, and fishermen. Nothing special
about either one other than they are closest to the Manistee Ranger
Station.

Zuckerruebensirup

I second Rusty s suggestion. I d hate to see too much attention focused on geocaching in Michigan before we ve had a chance to establish a history of good

Message 7 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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I second Rusty's suggestion. I'd hate to see too much attention
focused on geocaching in Michigan before we've had a chance to
establish a history of good stewardship and an organized and self-
disciplined approach to placing, maintaining, and seeking caches.

In order to 'arm' ourselves for similar incidents that are sure to
come up in the future, I'd love to see us all make a concentrated
effort to start practicing (and documenting) Cache In/Trash Out
habits on a regular basis. One of the features on the new MiGO
website that's under development, is a page for sharing pictures and
stories of Cache In/Trash Out efforts. I'd like to see us come up
with a contest, or at least a way to recognize those who go the extra
mile to clean up the areas in which they cache.

The more examples we can present of 'giving back' to the parks who
welcome our activity, the harder it will be for officials to justify
turning us away.

Just my 2 cents,
Zuck

--- In migo@y..., "rustypayne" <migo@h...> wrote:

> Let's not go too far and stir up officials that have never even
> heard of geocaching and don't need to get involved yet. If you
check
> the geocaching forums you will find that in most cases you will get
> a "no" simply because they don't know and don't want to take
> responsibility for saying yes. Contacting too many people could end
> up with getting geocaching banned in areas that had not even
thought
> about it.

jamie rich

OK, I got the hint & won t stir up too much stuff right now! But I do agree with the below statements of being able to demonstrate the we are good guys for

Message 8 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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OK, I got the hint & won't stir up too much stuff right now! But I do agree with the below statements of being able to demonstrate the we are "good guys" for the environment. Plus we need to find out if those caches were/are actually on forbidden (wilderness) areas. If they are on areas used by other recreationists, we have the start of making our friendly position to the authorities. I do NOT want this to tourn adversarial or into "us vs. them". We'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

... Ranger ... We were up in that area camping not long before the cache was placed but haven t been back there since so I don t have first hand knowledge of

Message 9 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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> "Federal Park" is definitely NOT in a wilderness area. It's in the
> middle of the Day Use area of the Lake Michigan Recreation Area..
> And "Field of Ferns" is just in a large clearing in the woods which
> is frequented by campers, hunters, and fishermen. Nothing special
> about either one other than they are closest to the Manistee

Ranger

> Station.

We were up in that area camping not long before the cache was placed
but haven't been back there since so I don't have first hand
knowledge of exactly where it is. From the map it looked to me like
it was in the Nordhouse Dunes, which is a designated wilderness area.
I didn't mean to come across as being absolutey certain it was in
that area, only that it appeared that way on the maps I was using.

Rusty...

rustypayne

Everyone in this forum understands that the negative impact of geocaching on the environment is between little and none. We enjoy and have a reverence for

Message 10 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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Everyone in this forum understands that the negative impact of
geocaching on the environment is between little and none. We enjoy
and have a reverence for nature or we probably wouldn't be out doing
this in the first place. Like Zuck says, we have a cache in/trash out
policy and I think most of us practice in on some level most of the
time. We SHOULD highlight our positive contributions.

My point is that in this forum you are "preaching to the choir", we
need to get a outsiders to understand the benifits of geocaching and
understand the sport. Only when they truly understand it can they
make an informed decision about it. If we force the issue too soon it
is much less likely to be in our favor. My understanding is that our
website will be online real soon, it will be a great place to
highlight the things we do and educate others about us.

ABXGuy is trying to contact the officials in the Manistee Forest to
get clarification of their intentions. Hopefully he can get a
response soon and post it here. I need to do maintenance on my NF
cache this weekend and I'm still undecided on removing and archiving
it.

Rusty...

Mike Wunderlich

All, Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site, (it s not a myth!!) :) We already have two things that demonstrate our comradery and

Message 11 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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All,

Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site, (it's
not a myth!!) :) We already have two things that demonstrate our comradery
and the fact that we're not 100% a bunch of mavericks out to wreck the world
;) Those are write-ups for the MiGO Picnic get together and the TC Geocache
Convergence event. If anyone has anything else they would like to
contribute (personal outing stories, group trips, service activities, etc.)
PLEASE feel free to write it up and submit it to me for posting :)
Preferred format is MS Word Doc or HTML. Feel free to include as many
photos as you want. We have ample storage for images.

The site will also contain a brief description of what MiGO is, why it
exists, etc. This information may help to calm fears that park personnell
are managing a one vs. many situation in regards to Geocaching in Michigan.
Hopefully it will serve to illustrate to them that help is available from
our organization in getting out the word on their guidelines for caching and
the finding of caches and cachers who are not operating within those
guidelines.

Anyway, I think suggestions for gathering more info and discussing it prior
to addressing concerns to the world is good advice.

-Mike [trippy1976]

Tim Cahoon

Sorry to ask a dumb question but.... what s the URL?????

Message 12 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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Sorry to ask a dumb question but....

what's the URL?????

Mike Wunderlich wrote:

>
> All,
>
> Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site,

Frank Rens

... We visited our cache today and added our phone number to the first page of the log book. Thought it might make it easier to get in contact with us in case

Message 13 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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At 2:03 PM +0000 6/5/02, rustypayne wrote:

>I need to do maintenance on my NF
>cache this weekend and I'm still undecided on removing and archiving
>it.

We visited our cache today and added our phone number to the first
page of the log book. Thought it might make it easier to get in
contact with us in case it gets removed. I'd like the camera back.

Frank

Mike Wunderlich

There s only a place holder there now. By preview I meant verbal. However the URL is and will be www.mi-geocaching.org There s a small page up there that s

Message 14 of 15
, Jun 5, 2002

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There's only a place holder there now. By preview I meant verbal. However
the URL is and will be
www.mi-geocaching.org

There's a small page up there that's pretty out of date. That'll be the
look and feel but there is a LOT more going onto the real site. I just
need a moment to sit down and finish up some loose ends and upload it.
Thanks for your interest!! Once it goes up, feel free to give me
feedback. It'll evolve fairly rapidly I hope.

Greetings all cachers, Help me out here. I am confused as to which parks can not have caches. National Park Service parks in Michigan are the following...

Message 15 of 15
, Jun 6, 2002

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Greetings all cachers,

Help me out here. I am confused as to which parks can not have caches.
National Park Service parks in Michigan are the following...
Father Marquette National Memorial
Isle Royal National Park
Keweenaw National Historical Park
Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore
Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore

Are these the only locations caches can not be put in Michigan as per this
discussion?

Looking at the map on the above mentioned link, it really doesn't seem to be
that much of an area. I know it must be heart breaking for those who have
productive and beautiful caches palced in these areas but there are a lot of
other great spots in Michigan to place caches. Granted, I personally would
love to find a cache at Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore (Love that spot on
this planet, almost cried with awe 1st time I saw it), but have no problem
finding one nearby and having the cache recommend visiting the Pictured
Rocks while I am in the area.

And Zuckerruebensirup (thank goodness for cut an paste, whew, that's a name
and a half) I agree with the cache in/trash out effort. We always do this
(even did at the Traverse City Convergence) and consider it to be an
important part of the find. Not only did we take out a fabulous 1" tall
soccer troll, we also took out 2 grocery bags full of trash. :-P Makes us
feel like did our part.

Just trying to clarify things in my mind. Thanks and Cache on!

Angela
The-Wild-N-Wooly-(Mrs.)-Wieske

P.S. By the By... If you do a search on the above mentioned web site using
the word geocaching you will find 2 service communications that mention
geocaching. Read them in chronological order and you can see somewhat where
NPS is coming from. Not that I completely agree with their banning of
Geocaching, but can see that their first recorded experience with it was
rather negative.