Healthy oil?

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Senior Member

I'm confused about this issue. I'd like to take an oil supplement and in fact was taking fish oil, but recently read this by Dr. Cheney:

The best EFA ratio for CFS consumption an atypical and surprising choice

August 29th, 2009, published in Public Relations

The essential fatty acids (EFAs) fall into two main categories known as the omega-3 and omega-6 series which are distinguished by the presence of a double bond at either the third or sixth carbon atom from the methyl-group end of the fatty acid chain which typically numbers 18-22 carbon atoms in length. These fatty acids are essential because the body cannot synthesize a double bond at either the 3-carbon or the 6-carbon positions and because these fatty acids are essential to the synthesis of a range of cell associated autocrine and paracrine hormones known as the eicosanoids. These eicosanoids are responsible for an extremely large range of cell functions without which life is not possible and a derangement of which will cause severe cellular dysfunction and important clinical consequences. The eicosanoids control the pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory pathways involved in innate immunity and act as signaling messengers in the brain. Diseases affected by the eicosanoids include cardiovascular disease, stroke, thrombosis, arthritis, asthma, allergies, blood pressure and even cancer. They also also influence diabetes and obesity. The eicosanoid synthesis involves the production of ROS and highly reactive lipid peroxides which can damage cellular DNA and mitochondrial DNA. These systems are highly regulated and can be dysregulated by ingestion of either the wrong ratio or inadequate amounts of EFAs or oxidized EFAs.

In this post, we explore the incredible finding that different ratios of omega-3 to omega-6 EFAs appear to produce dramatically different effects on the echocardiographically derived ETM, both positive and negative. Surprisingly, the use of omega-3 EFAs and especially fish oil is uniformly negative (N=10) in CFS but not in controls (N=3). This is not terribly surprising since omega-3 oils are far more easily oxidized and is possibly explained by the more redox impaired status of CFS. However, we are also finding that omega-6 alone, while better than omega-3 alone in an oxidizing state such as CFS, is not nearly as positive as a mixture of the omega-3, omega-6 and omega-9 EFAs. In particular, a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 of 3:1 appears ideal and generates the most positive ETM response. Such a ratio is found in high grade olive oil but not lower grades of olive oil which are as high as 13:1, omega-6 over omega-3. The use of fish oil as an omega-3 source is inferior to the use of a plant source of omega-3 such as flaxseed oil or possibly a cyanobacteria derived source such as spirulina. As the ratios of six to three approach 1:1, the ETM response becomes more variable in each patient but the 3:1 ratio of omega-six over omega-three is always a good choice if it excludes fish oil.

This important finding of large EFA ratio variances in ETM response could be used to great advantage as the regulation of the eicosanoids are very dependent on a proper EFA ratio and this appears especially so for CFS. This means that the entire paracrine and autocrine hormone system involved in eiconasoid regulation can be favorably influenced with the right EFA ratio and this could have profound and positive effects in CFS. Conversely, the wrong EFA ratios could have significant and negative consequences in CFS.

So, can anyone recommend an oil thta is effective? Is flaxseed oil the way to go?

I'm not sure why they are saying plant based oil is better than fish oil. Plant based is medium chain fatty acid, while fish oil is long chain. If I remember correctly, the medium chain has to be converted in the body to long chain anyway to be utilized. Maybe they are referring to the presence of toxins due to our polluted waters. If you do take fish oil, you should use pharmaceutical grade, not regular health food store grade.

The other thing is that olive oil is a monosaturated fat, therefore it has no effect on eicosanoids.

It is correct that you need omega 6 along with omega 3 in order for eicosanoids to be produced. Ecosanoids are the body's natural painkillers. However, depending on the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 you could tilt the body towards producing more good or bad eicosanoids. Bad eicosanoids will cause pain. Good eicosanoids will reduce pain.

It's not clear when they are talking about the ratio of 6's to 3's if they mean as supplementation or as a total part of the diet. People already get plenty of 6's in their diet from grain fed meat, vegetable oils, etc.

If you start supplementing with a lot of 6's (borage oil, evening primrose oil, etc.) at first you will feel good as lots of eicosanoids are being produced, then you will start to feel very bad as you will get an overload of bad eicosanoids. It might take a month or two.

My suggestion would be to learn how to do self muscle testing to find out if a particular oil is good for you, and the amount that you should take.

Senior Member

Hi, Rockt ; to really understand what Cheney means by ETMs, Echo Terrain Maps, you should buy and watch his 2009 DVDs, CFS: Is Oxygen the Problem? which are still available very, very cheaply from www.dfwcfids.org ; Cheney, whatever your final conclusion, is without doubt one of our most knowledgeable and experienced CFS researchers, and the DVDs, though sometimes difficult, are very worthwhile.

What Cheney is measuring via ETM is the almost instantaneous reaction of the heart to the skin application of substances. Rich van Konynenburg has written a critique of this method somewhere on this website, though I cannot quickly find it. I think he has a point; what your body long term reacts to is your total dietary intake of fatty acids, and that is a very different thing from your oil supplement. Nearly all the researchers who have studied Western dietary fatty acids intake (just to take one, Chiltons Inflammation NationOK, chintzy title, but hes a genuine expert on this stuff) have found that we have a large excess of omega 6 over omega 3, unless we are following a very specific diet, and would do better if the ratio were more balancedanywhere between 3 to 1 and 1 to 1, according to various sources.

So to produce a better balanced overall profile, most of us should be taking more omega 3s. I wrote a long post on this stuff on a thread devoted to fatty acids a while ago, and wont repeat it all here, but to take on the issue of how best to get omega 3s, there are indeed vegetable sources, like flax and hemp, but they all offer the root form, alpha-linolenic acid, which the body can convert to the more active forms of EPA and DHA which have multiple good effects on the heart and brain. Unfortunately, there is good evidence that most of us, and particularly older folk, are not very good at this conversion. So most of us would benefit from some additional EPA and DHA, which means fish or krill oil. Flax and hemp are good too, but..

Unfortunately, these oils are subject to oxidation, and I think one of the things Cheney was measuring was just that. Fish oils very in their quality and the quality of the anti-oxidants included with them, so buy the best. Krill oil contains a very active native antioxidant, astaxanthin, and some-not much- research shows it raises HDL cholesterol as well as lowers LDL.

There is also some evidence (read Chiltons book and other sources) that one form of omega 6, GLA, found primarily in evening primrose oil and borage oil, is also anti-inflammatory. But remember that you are almost certainly getting a large surplus of omega 6 fatty acids in your diet, while unless you eat a lot of fatty cold water fish (sardines, wild salmonfarmed salmon has omega 3s, but also high Arachidonic acid, which is inflammator-- mackerel, herring) you are probably not getting a lot of DHA and EPA.

Cheneys ETM suggests that high quality extra virgin olive oil contains a good balance overall, and he may well be right on this, but remember that this will make only a very small percentage of your total intake of fatty acids. There are websites which will show the percentage of fatty acids in various foods, and you will I think findI certainly foundthat like most of us you are taking in much more omega 6 than omega 3.

Remember also that the benefits of supplementing EPA and DHA max out fairly quicklymore is not necessarily better, and too much will damp down your immune system (the other side of anti-inflammatory action), though to some degree that may not be a bad thing. So think before you plunge, and remember that some of the best overall dietary advice (Colin Campbell, The China Study, Dean Ornish, Spectrum) still says that an overall very low fat intake is the healthiest way to eat. Best, Chris.

Senior Member

Chris, do you think one SHOULD supplement with some kind of oil? My CFS symptoms are mainly, though not limited to, cognitive in nature. That's why I was leaning towards fish oil - brain food and all that.

"and this too shall pass"

I am sorry that I am not able to contribute much. I appreciate you all, even though I cannot comprehend much of what I read.

I just wanted to mention something here, its a possitive for Omega-3 Salmon & fish oils. I sometimes think that my 100 lb dog may have "this" illness. I tried a few things to no avail. He is now taking 1000mg Omega-3 Salmon & fish oils daily and has STOPPED limping. It has been amazing for him. And it cant be all in his head!!!!

Senior Member

Hi, Rockt; SHOULD is a strong word--maybe I will duck that a bit and make a couple of suggestions. If you are thinking cognition, then I would take a little fish or krill oil--but not a large amount, say I to 2 grams. Make sure it is of high quality, and if you decide on krill, accept a lower amount of DHA and EPA--it seems more bioavailable, and less subject to rancidity.

I take it for cardiac as well as cognitive reasons, and there is a split in opinion here; Dean Ornish recommends 3 grams fish oil for cardiac protection, since it does tend to ward of arrhythmias, keeps blood flowing smoothly (lowers risk of thrombosis), and has other demonstrated cardiac virtues. However, Esselstyn says "no," and gets good results too.

You could investigate GLA (primrose, borage oils) further; in the right ratio to omega 3s, it seems to have some anti-inflammatory power, but I am a bit wary and the research on this is still not quite clear to me--I should do some more checking into recent work. There is a mixed oil, Efamol, that combines a bit of GLA with a bit of EPA and DHA, but not very much of any of them; uses some vit E and thyme oil as antioxidants--don't know how effectively.

So I take about 1 gr fish oil and 1 gr krill oil and sometimes add a bit of Evening Primrose oil to the mix just for luck.
I am unsure enough to hesitate to make a strong recommendation, but am pretty sure that a lowish quantity of either good fish or krill oil will do no harm and will very probably do some good, and in some areas will definitely do some good. Of course if you regularly eat wild salmon or mackerel or other such fish your need of additional oil will be little or none at all. Think in terms of your total intake, not just the content of any supplement.
Whatever you do, I wish you good luck and good health! Chris

Senior Member

My two cents: If possible, it would be very helpful to get a red cell fatty acid analysis done to see what your balance of o-3's to o-6's are. Patricia Kane PhD has worked with thousands of patients with a variety of chronic illnesses, and surprisingly found (through testing at Johns Hopkins) that the majority were found to beactually too high in omega 3's (from fish or flax oils) and too low in omega 6's (from EPO, borage, and others). Chris is right -- the ratio is important, and when we're sick, it's easy to assume that we're too high in o-6's, and too low in o-3's, when it could be the other way around.

Yes, the average American eats waaaaay too much o-6 oils -- mostly from fast foods, salad dressings, and all the processed foods (crackers, cookies, snack foods) that surround us. But that doesn't mean everyone does. As Caledonia says above, omega six oils are REQUIRED in order for omega 3's to work properly. They cannot work alone.

Senior Member

The doctor treating me for Lyme (he is a rheumatologist) told me last week I need to take Omega 6 along with the krill oil I already take (I think he said for nerve healing) he included this advice in a letter he wrote to my GP so he must think it is important.

But he didnt give any information on what and how much to take, anyone got any ideas. I am presuming he meant Evening primrose oil?

Senior Member

Hi, all; just a quick note on those omega 6 oils; you will find that it is not just those bad things that contain a preponderance of 6s--it is basic staples like oatmeal, quinoa, etc etc. also. There are websites that will show you the ratios--the http://whfoods.org site is just one. Don't assume you are not getting some 6s just because you eat mostly healthy food! I am very leary of that Kane stuff--most of the researchers have found that most people in fact get much more 6 than 3--certainly Chilton and a British researcher whose name I now forget did. And 6 is not synonymous with GLA--that is a special form of 6. Best, Chris.

Senior Member

Hi, all; just a quick note on those omega 6 oils; you will find that it is not just those bad things that contain a preponderance of 6s--it is basic staples like oatmeal, quinoa, etc etc. also. There are websites that will show you the ratios--the http://whfoods.org site is just one. Don't assume you are not getting some 6s just because you eat mostly healthy food! I am very leary of that Kane stuff--most of the researchers have found that most people in fact get much more 6 than 3--certainly Chilton and a British researcher whose name I now forget did. And 6 is not synonymous with GLA--that is a special form of 6. Best, Chris.

Good points about o-6's in 'healthy' foods Chris. They're in many foods, and in most meats, as what are most chickens and cows feed these days...grains.

I totally understand being leary of Kane's findings. I was too. The explanation was that these patients had been sick for years, looking for answers, and (because omega 3's had been so overhyped as 'good' and o-6's as 'bad') that "fish oils were commonly emplyoed in their effort to find relief. The 80% (that had high levels of o-3's) is unusually high but is the result of 1) that narrow select group and 2) the indivdual's reporting of the use of fish oils often over several years. Would this have been the case 10 years ago -- probably not."

I think she recommends Evening Primrose Oil, because even though borage oil has higher levels of o-6, it has some different type of other fatty components...very long chain fatty acids???

neuf08

Guest

It is true that most of us take in omega 6 oils in our daily diet, while few of us come even close to getting the amount of omega 3 oil that we need. So that is why supplementation tends to lean a bit more heavily on the side of the omega 3s. If you're concerned about getting in the proper ratio, then I would recommend adding in a source of omega 6 in your supplement routine. As was mentioned, I think that borage oil is a great source of this. While GLA is not the only type of omega 6, it is certainly an excellent one, and goes a long way in assisting with weight loss and a number of other things. Borage oil is one of the few sources of GLA, with the other being evening primrose oil. However, the concentration of GLA is much high in borage oil than it is in the EPO. So that's something to think about as well when choosing an omega 6. There are also some EFAs out there with specific rations of omega 3 and 6, or omega 3,6, and 9. So you could look into one of those as well.

P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

Grinding your own Flax seed is the best way to take it. Just a coffee grinder. I take that, a very good fish oil and eat walnuts daily. Olive oils are good and I eat lots of salmon. Avacado's are good too. Variety.

Senior Member

I have been spreading essentially the same message as you have for the last 17 years. This is very old CFS research (check out Grey and Martinovic on PubMed) and I too have read much of Barry Sears work. I initiated some research into omega-3s for CFS in 1993, but it wasn't done by me.

Extra virgin olive oil isn't always extra virgin olive oil. While extra virgin is the best (from the first pressing of the olive, without heat), there is more on sale in the world than the world makes. Buy a local brand that you trust.

Monounsaturated fats might effect eicosanoids. They might do this by competitive inhibition of certain enzymes. Their affinity for the enzymes would be very weak, so they will slow synthesis by an effect called mass action. Its just that they don't directly make eicosanoids.

Nobody has ever been able to get a stable omega-3 to omega-6 ratio in CFS anything like reliably. For a time it might work, then the ratio will change. If someone does get this to work, it probably has as much to do with the other therapies the patient is on - a synergy of treatments.

Both omega-6s and omega-3s produce good eicosanoids, but most of the really bad ones are also from omega-6 - and both good and bad are essential to survival. The enzymes needed to turn shorter fats into longer fats that can make these hormones are sensitive to alcohol and oxidative stress, and extremely sensitive to reduced glutathione levels. The enzyme (COX-2) that turns omega-6s into the precursor for the bad eicosanoids (arachidonic acid) is highly active in CFS. Eicosanoids can reduce or increase pain and inflammation depending on the type. There are so many of them that I gave up trying to track this research in 1990 or so, as it is very hard to get good information and the complexity means this research is strictly for the experts who have the time and resources to sort things out.

The only downside to taking fish oil is that you will slow omega-6 synthesis as well (via competitive inhibition), as d-5-desaturase (and d-6-d) has a higher affinity for omega-3s than omega-6s. Generally series 3 eicosanoids (not because they are from omega-3s, but because there are three separate pathways) are anti-inflammatory, or only weakly pro-inflammatory. However, most of us have low omega-6 good eicosanoids. So we are both deficient and have excess (in different types and different tissues) which is why this is so very hard to balance. I think it will only be possible once we remove the cause - that is, have a successful CFS treament available. Until then if you fix the deficiency you will also crank up the problem.

Not that I advise against taking omega-3s or 6s, just to be very very careful and expect to have to change the dosage regularly. If you suddenly get an increase in flu-like symptoms, you need to stop taking omega-6 until you return to normal.

I
If you do take fish oil, you should use pharmaceutical grade, not regular health food store grade.

The other thing is that olive oil is a monosaturated fat, therefore it has no effect on eicosanoids.

It is correct that you need omega 6 along with omega 3 in order for eicosanoids to be produced. Ecosanoids are the body's natural painkillers. However, depending on the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 you could tilt the body towards producing more good or bad eicosanoids. Bad eicosanoids will cause pain. Good eicosanoids will reduce pain.

If you start supplementing with a lot of 6's (borage oil, evening primrose oil, etc.) at first you will feel good as lots of eicosanoids are being produced, then you will start to feel very bad as you will get an overload of bad eicosanoids. It might take a month or two.

My suggestion would be to learn how to do self muscle testing to find out if a particular oil is good for you, and the amount that you should take.

Senior Member

There are three series of eicosanoids. Series one is mostly good stuff (from DGLA) , and like series two (from arachidonic acid) is from omega-6s. Series three is from omega-3s. They do not substitute for each other, although enough of either omega-6 or omega-3 can partially compensate for a lack of the other. You need both because both are essential - the word essential basically points to the fact that a prolonged dietary intake deficiency can kill you.

Senior Member

I currently take fermented cod liver oil and factor X high vitamin butter oil.

Prior to taking these oils I went about 3 1/2 years unable to tolerate any kind of vitamin D...no daylight exposure, no foods with a decent amount, and no supplementation. Tried so many different forms, even custom compounded, but to no avail. The tiniest amount of supplementation would cause me increasingly severe constant body-wide pain even for weeks of pushing through it, which confounded my doctors because vitamin D is supposed to relieve pain, not cause it. When my naturopath tested me she said my D levels were the lowest she had ever seen. So the fact that I'm now able to take this cod liver oil is huge for me.

I believe the kind of cod liver oil is really important. From what I read, the way cod liver oils are generally processed it gets bleached, filtered, and otherwise processed so much that the vast majority of natural vitamins are removed. To make up for this, some manufacturers add synthetic vitamins to the mix. I'm one of those people who believes that synthetic vitamins tend to work differently on our bodies than naturally occurring vitamins. Others just leave the low vitamin concentration as is, leaving you to ingest more oil to get the same amount of vitamins. Have you seen how they advertise fish oil capsules saying there's no fishy taste or smell? Do you think broccoli would have the same vitamin content if there was no broccoli taste or smell to it?

With those things in mind, there are only two brands of cod liver oil that I'd consider taking: one is Blue Ice High-Vitamin Fermented Cod Liver Oil and the other is Premier Quantum Norwegian Cod Liver Oil. The Blue Ice oil uses a manufacturing process that does not remove the natural vitamins and never heats it; the Norwegian oil removes the natural vitamins but them adds them back in afterwards (don't ask me how). The Blue Ice Oil is fermented, which is the traditional way it was consumed, the Norwegian oil is not. The Blue Ice oil is packaged in glass containers, the Norwegian oil in plastic. The Blue Ice oil comes in various forms of flavors, capsules, and even gummy fish, the Norwegian oil is only plain liquid.

I purchased a plain bottle of each and had an objective party muscle test them on me. The Blue Ice oil tested strong, the Norwegian oil very weak, so I went with Blue Ice. So far I've only tried their unflavored oil, but when I'm finished with this bottle I plan to try salty cod, and after that the Mediterranean. It's been several months now that taking anywhere from 1/2 teaspoon to a full teaspoon per day I'm getting plenty of vitamin D and A. I don't really measure, I just take as much as "seems" right. For more information on Cod Liver oil here's a link to an article with dosage and brand recommendations, and basic thoughts on the vitamin ratios and amounts. Here is an article explaining processing differences and other such things. Here's a link to the place I get my cod liver oil from, to give you an idea of all the options you have for taking it. You can buy Blue Ice from various places and it'll be the same product, so I'm not necessarily recommending this place above any others, just linking due to the wide selection available on that site.

Now for the butter oil.

Let me start out by saying that dairy is one of my worst allergies. I've been allergic to dairy since birth, with the reaction of both gastrointestinal symptoms and my esophagus swelling shut so that pills get "stuck" there for hours. A few years ago RAST allergy testing confirmed that my reaction was off the charts....my reaction to gluten indicating celiac disease was minor compared to my dairy results. All four separately tested components of cow's milk came back as either off the charts or nearly of the charts, as well as the separately tested components of goat's milk (even though I've only had it once in my life, and didn't even like it). I then tried NAET treatments for my allergies and was progressing nicely until we hit my dairy allergy. Then the treatments made me progressively worse until, according to the muscle testing results of the person doing them, I would react to dairy if I was within 6 feet of it. I never tested that claim, but we had to stop the NAET treatments because attempting to treat it made my esophagus swollen for weeks on end, at which point I could only eat liquid foods and had episodes of restricted breathing as well.

So all that to say, if anyone ever had a dairy allergy bad enough to not even consider taking butter oil it'd be me. But I did end up trying it, and have found that I have no reaction to it (even though I still react to dairy...yes, I tested it. ). That's saying a lot. And when I say I still have a reaction to dairy, I mean I still react to raw organic cheese, the same cooked cheese, raw organic milk, homemade yogurt made with that milk, etc. I've really tried it all.

So what's the deal about butter oil? To give you the short of it, a dentist named Weston. A Price toured primitive people groups around the word to study their diet and health, and study how their health changed when their diet was westernized. He found that among the groups he studied they all had practically perfect teeth that were free of cavities, straight, and with enough room for the wisdom teeth, but in only a single generation of eating westernized foods the same people group developed crooked, crowded teeth with multiple cavities. After comparing what they ate, from Eskimos to the Masai to sequestered Swiss villages and everyone in-between, he concluded that an unidentified "X factor" was the common denominator among these various diets and very low to nonexistent in westernized diets. Now thought to be Vitamin K2, "Activator X" as he called it is found in organ meats from animals eating green grass, fish eggs, shellfish, and the milk of cows eating rapidly growing grass (especially concentrated in the butter). Price theorized/concluded that Activator X was necessary for the absorption of minerals and thus was vital for strong, healthy teeth resistant to decay, as well as all other areas of health affected by minerals.

Price came home and experimented his findings, and to his delight discovered that a change in diet including cod liver oil, a generous amount of Activator X butter, other foods containing Activator X as well as fresh wholesome foods actually healed existing cavities as well as prevented new ones from forming. You can read more about how this is even possible here.

I wasn't sure I believed all this stuff, but after years of being too ill for any sort of consistent dental hygiene my teeth were decaying enough to cause me a lot of pain, and with severe MCS I wasn't sure I could make it to the dentist, let alone have any work done. So I was desperate enough to try it. If I could tolerate other activator X foods I would have preferred them over the butter oil, since I dislike the marketing aspect of it, but oh well.

The butter oil is raw and is and extract of butter. It is marketed as X-Factor Gold High Vitamin Butter Oil and also comes in different flavors, even as capsules if preferred. I'd recommend going the organ meats/fish eggs/grassfed milk route if you can, simply because that seems like a healthier, more natural way to get this stuff in your system, but then again there's a lot to be said for the convenience of popping a pill or spreading a small amount of oil on your food instead, especially when energy is so precious. EDTI: also, this concerntrated form of butter oil also has Stigmasterol (also known as Wulzen anti-stiffness factor) concentrated in it as well, so long as you don't heat it, which could be helpful for pain relief.

As for effectiveness, it's been, oh I don't know, perhaps 5 months since I started taking these oils. I did notice that when I stopped taking them for about a week my teeth started to hurt more, and when I started taking them again that went away. I did manage to visit a holistic dentist before beginning this "protocol" of sorts, and it was confirmed that I had 2 major cavities and a multitude of little ones, so if this stuff does work I'll have proof.

As far as amounts go, I simply put some on my food for one or two meals a day, however much seems "right", which is usually about 3/4 of a teaspoon. The recommended serving size is 1/2 a teaspoon (once a day). When I first got the oils and started taking them together, my body couldn't seem to get enough of the butter oil and I would eat approximately 4 teaspoons in a day. I was concerned at first, but let it take its course and about a week or two later it was down to a more "normal" serving like I do now. A few times since then I've accidentally run our or otherwise been without it, and when I first get some again then I seem to "need" a larger portion before it again levels off. It makes me wonder if there is something to the theory that Activator X is necessary for utilizing minerals, acting as a catalyst.

Going back to the cod liver oil, I did suffer my regular vitamin D symptom of unrelenting body-wide pain (quite different from fibro) for the first week or two, but then it went away. Since in the past I've tried other vitamin D intake for longer periods of time without relief, I have to wonder if the Activator X in the butter oil had something to do with it. From what I recall the pain began to go away approximately in proportion to me no longer feeling the need to take such a large amount of the butter oil.

Salmon oil is another oil that I might consider taking someday primarily for it's astaxanthin content (very powerful antioxidant). If I do, I'd without question use the Vital Choice brand of Salmon Oil capsules. For one, it's made from wild salmon, whereas the majority of salmon oils are from farmed salmon, which I believe are harmful and should not be consumed. The Vital Choice brand of salmon oil also has a very high amount of the antioxidant astaxanthin as compared to other brands, and you can see it in their color (the antioxidant is orange/red...it's the same stuff that makes crab, shrimp, and salmon pink/red). I wouldn't trust a clear capsule labeled "salmon oil", since no pigment means none of that particular antioxidant! The Vital Choice brand of salmon oil also indicates that it's un-distilled (less processed!) and that's it's only made from Sockeye salmon, which have the highest astaxanthin levels.

I have not tried any of the Vital Choice products or any salmon oils at all for that matter; I've merely researched the subject and am reporting my findings per what I personally would take if I went in that direction.

Phew, that was a long post. I hope it was helpful! I tried to make it as skimmable as possible for readers benefit. :Retro smile:

Senior Member

I was a nutrition major in college (in a past life) and have a particular interest in this. But y'all don't need me. Caledonia & Chris pretty much covered it, and I agree with them.

I'm afraid I'd have to file this discussion by Dr Chaney under "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull," especially since ETM (echo terrain map) is apparently an acronym for a term he coined himself. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against Dr Chaney and appreciate his ongoing efforts on behalf of ME/CFS patients. But I'm not impressed with this theory. It was too small a sample and too many uncontrolled variabled. For instance, he concludes that the effect was due to the Omega-3 to Omega-6 ratio, but what if it's due to the specific fatty acids in the fats tested? For example, flaxeed oil is exceptionally high in alpha-linolenic acid.

And, yes, eicosanoid synthesis involves the production of ROS (reactive oxygen species), but what doesn't? Most oxygen metabolism produces free radicals. That's why I think it's important for people with ME/CFS to try to eat a diet high in antioxidants.

And, as others have pointed out, most of us get a lot of Omega-6 is our diet. Soy oil is widely used in prepared foods, and it's high in linoleic acid (an Omega-6).

My plain-English advice? Don't give up your fish oil, if you take it. And use a variety of oils. I use both olive oil and canola oil regularly, and also include sunflower, walnut and flaxseed oils. And make sure they're fresh! If they smell stale or rancid-y, they've already started oxidizing, producing those free radicals that do the damage. I also think it's important for ME/CFS patients to get enough oil in their diet, and that our requirement is probably higher than healthy people's. Of course this is a problem when we burn so few calories a day, but I still think it's worth it. I try to eat very little saturated fat, so that I can eat more healthy oil. Like I buy 96% lean ground beef and add olive oil to it when I cook it.

Senior Member

Could anyone help me with this question (perhaps previously discussed somewhere, have searched but not found it):

I have been wondering about the Omega3 supplements made from fish oil and to what extent these might contain heavy metals and other toxins (which are of course present in fat fish). Suppliers usually claim the oils/supplements have been de-contaminated, but has this been tested by a third party?

Are there any brands that are proven to contain less heavy metals/toxins than others?

Senior Member

Only ones which are purified to pharmacuetical grade.
The other huge problem with taking unpurified fish liver oils is that you can end up overdosing on Vitamin A. Another reason you need to take only pharmaceutical grade oil.