Preaching the gospel of spiritual independence

January 06, 2014

The various delusions of Sant Mat belief

Below is a recent comment left by Osho Robbins on this post. Though it concerns the specific beliefs of the India-based Sant Mat religious philosophy, Robbins makes some points that apply to all forms of religiosity.

Such as mistaking subjectivity for objectivity; faith for facts; wishful thinking for actual reality.

I agree with almost everything Robbins says. I do, however, look upon "I don't know" a bit differently than he does.

It seems to me that a don't-know attitude is justified in situations akin to a coin flip -- where the actual outcome is close to 50-50: could be this, or could be that. Odds are about even that each is true.

When it comes to the existence of God or life after death, though, the odds appear tilted considerably toward the unbelieving side. There are many reasons to doubt that God is real or human consciousness survives in a non-bodily form, and few to support these beliefs.

Something that has a high probability of being true deserves more than a "I don't know."

Still, if we take "I don't know" to mean "I don't know for sure," then this fits with the scientific method: knowledge is always subject to falsification and change as new evidence becomes available.

I made some minor grammatical edits to Robbins' comment and added bracketed explanations of some terms that will be unfamiliar to many readers. Here it is:

When a seeker initially comes across Sant Mat - it seems like a great idea:

1. Get initiated.2. Meditate.3. Leave the body.4. Transcend death - by discovering you are a SOUL and do not die and have a life independent of the body.5. Meet the master within - become good friends with him as he personally escorts you through the inner regions in his Radiant Form [akin to Astral Form].6. Become all knowing and all powerful as you become a 'saint' and arrive at Sach Khand [heaven, basically].7. Become immortal and reside in Sach Khand forever. 8. Spend the rest of your life here on earth guiding other souls on the path to Sach Khand.

Once you believe this is possible (which you do if you attend satsangs [spiritual meetings], read the books and listen to the stories of others who have achieved this), you are pretty much hooked.

You will now do whatever it takes to get initiated and become a disciple.

You know it's going to be hard work and involve lots of meditation - but you are sure you will succeed - with the grace of the master.

So you get initiated. The meditation is tough because you are just sitting there - repeating the five holy names [a mantra] and nothing is happening. years go by. Decades go by. You eventually accept that it's not going to happen - but by now you are a believer.

So you decide to do seva [volunteer work] instead. Become a speaker, or a secretary, or a treasurer. The other satsangis [initiates] have become part of your social circle and your friends.

You are 100% convinced that this path is the truth and the real way to God. You can logically see it makes total sense.

If you personally have failed to make progress - it's because you have failed to live up to the high standards demanded by the masters. You know you need to work on yourself. But at least you know the master will come and save you at the time of death.

This becomes the fall-back position. This is every disciple's insurance policy.

When a broker offers you life insurance - you laugh in his face and tell him he is selling death insurance and that you already have the best life insurance policy in the universe.

The disciple has this feeling of superiority and it is unavoidable because he knows he is part of the chosen few in this world.

What the disciple cannot see is that all religions are the same. The Muslim believes he is special because he is a believer. The Christian believes the same.

The reason the Sant Mat follower believes so strongly is because the books and satsangs explain that the only path is through a living master and there have been past masters but they cannot help you now. It makes perfect sense, and that is the point.

Once you believe this is the only real path - there is no way you can ever leave. After all, where will you go? All other religions are false.

So the satsangi has a hard time with these churchless folk. All they can see is that these unfortunate people have had no results in meditation and have now turned their back on the master. They consider this to be 'really bad' because the master is God's representative on earth.

Just because they personally have no results doesn't matter because they KNOW they are on the RIGHT path.

This is the disciple's BELIEF and all beliefs appear to be the absolute truth - they are not considered opinions - but TRUTH. That is why the disciple cannot avoid being dogmatic.

Humans are very good at taking a belief and making it appear to be the truth.

The person who does not believe in God does exactly the same. He takes a belief and makes it appear to be the truth.

An honest person can only say "I don't know." He is neither a believer nor a dis-believer.

He takes no sides because all sides are beliefs.

In religious beliefs - you never get 100% proof. The attraction of Sant Mat is that you can do the 'experiment' and get to Sach Khand. If you arrive - you can finally say "I KNOW" rather than "I believe."

Of course there is still the question of delusion. Perhaps you are just deluded and have not arrived anywhere. Or maybe you get a mental shift and realise the journey is not literal and that Sach Khand is not a place so nobody arrives.

There will never be any objective proof. If someone claims to be enlightened, it is personal to them. They cannot hand it on a plate for someone else to examine. And when you can't define exactly what it is - it becomes even more impossible to prove to others.

There is the domain of "objective things" and the domain of "subjective things".

If you draw each of them as a circle - they will be separate circles - with no overlap.

They are separate worlds and cannot meet. Neither is any more real than the other.

They are different. Some people give greater credence to the objective and some to the subjective. When you are dying - the objective becomes irrelevant and the subjective becomes all important.

Any 'spiritual' journey is subjective and this is why the objective person will necessarily doubt and ask for proof. Proof cannot be given.

When a Radha Soami follower leaves 'the path' it simply means he has changed his focus from subjective to objective. Objectively speaking - Sant Mat appears to be nonsense. However to the believer it makes perfect sense because he is not concerned with the objective world.

Brian, please don't take this wrong. But I remember my wife once saying "Brian just can't help but continuously regurgitate words like a slug does slime" and when I read posts like this I see what she means. In a way you are just poking around in theology as others before you have done for thousands of years and become hypnotized by your own eloquence. But alas, there truly is nothing new under the sun.

I imagine once upon a time you liked Rumi's words:

This Love is beyond the study of theology,
that old trickery and hypocrisy.
If you want to improve your mind that way,

sleep on.
I've given up on my brain.
I've torn the cloth to shreds
and thrown it away.

If you're not completely naked,
wrap your beautiful robe of words
around you,

and sleep.

Keep up the good work. The satsangis need you to keep them honest and from thinking they know something when it is only something they read in a book.

When one of your posts is controversial and sheds a less than favorable light on GIHF I talk about it with my satsangi friends. No one says "Geeez, looks like we have been hoodwinked." and decides to do something else. Instead these posts can lead to thoughtful debates and I am thankful for that.

Your master would be proud of you. He really was not very fond of sycophants or of ignoramuses pontificating as if they knew something, as I am sure you have experienced with fundamentalist satsangis. You probably even did it yourself once upon a time. I better stop now or I will turn into a slug.

Howard, if you and your wife don't want to read what is on this blog, why are you doing so?

Actually, I am indeed offended by your comments. Not only because you insult me, but because you are insulting everyone who doesn't believe as you do.

This is the craziness of religious true believers. I know, because I used to be one.

You and your wife call me, and other religious skeptics, "slugs in slime" because we look upon life and reality in a different way than you do.

Wow. You don't even know me. You have no idea what it like to be me. You are clueless about how I live my life and look upon this marvelous world.

I don't feel at all like a slug in slime. Not that I know how a slug feels. But I recognize an insult when I read one. You might consider how much love and compassion your religious beliefs have brought you, given how you look upon those who don't share your beliefs.

“Brian, please don't take this wrong. But I remember my wife once saying "Brian just can't help but continuously regurgitate words like a slug does slime" and when I read posts like this I see what she means.” – Howard
Howard,
Take an objective look at your comment. The key words are “continuously regurgitate words.” Now let me ask you: would not this apply far more to ‘Satsang?’
Disciples go to satsang every Sunday. They hear the same words again and again. In fact it gets pretty boring. So boring in fact that some satsangis fall asleep in their chairs. I know because I used to fall asleep fairly often. It would have been interesting if I had fallen asleep while I was giving a talk. I wonder if anyone would have awoken me or let me enjoy my sleep.
In satsang, you hear the same stories again and again. GSD gives you the same message at every satsang. Most of Charan singh’s satsangs were almost identical to his previous satsangs because he would use the exact same quotes time and time again.
Do you accuse your guru, or your speakers of “regurgitating words like a slug does slime?” Maybe you should.
Because that is all they are doing each Sunday. In fact I was told by the management of RSSB that “we want parrots,” and I refused to be a parrot.
There is a lot more original thought and coherent arguments here than you will find in any satsang. I suggest the next time you go to satsang – you tell them they are regurgitating words like a slug does slime.

But Osho and Brian Howard also says thank you for this forum.. Maybe his wife is "the fly in the ointment".... And about "The Parrots"...I was walking up the hill after satsang at Dera, in a state of bliss, I had just had Dashan, and a flock of parrots flew around me, they seemed to enter into my very soul. I begged.. "Dear Lord please don't let me go insane here in India. Such is how great the intoxication is of this path.

Sour grapes from Howard. Obviously part of him realizes there are big holes in his belief system. Otherwise he would not have felt the need to post such a response. Some of Brian's lead comment (mostly written by Osho) seems to have cut to the quick. Best to be honest with yourself and face the truth.

June, the bliss and intoxication you felt after satsang and darshan at dera were your own. It arose from within you and not from without from the master, imo. Go to a quiet place and focus on a special tree or view you enjoy. In time, "you" will vanish and only the tree will remain. It is bliss and intoxication. I prefer to call it peace.

Go to a quiet place and focus on a special tree or view you enjoy. In time, "you" will vanish and only the tree will remain. It is bliss and intoxication. I prefer to call it peace.

The "bliss and intoxication" of losing oneself is self-induced delusion, but it may be necessary. Whether it's better to induce it through some mental technique than by means of drugs or a physical process is just a matter of preference. You may need to lose yourself on occasion, but if you have to make a big deal of it, make a religion of it, you need to lose your sense of self-importance.

That's not the point I was trying to make... When I'd phone home and share with my children about things my son Would enquire.. Ma are you on acid? To be on a High is pretty mean.. I'm stone cold sober now.

Just to add to the above previous to my walk up the hill at the tent I'd been sitting on the floor crying and a german lady help me up and started crying and hugged me. Then an Indian lady came , and we were all hugging and crying and laughing at the same time. None of us could speak each others language but we were one. Call it female hysterer or whatever I felt connected. And Thanks Tucson but I don't want to disappear into a tree I want to find myself in humanity.

I have this image of Baba Ji doing a national Satsang and then being asked a question by Osho/Mike Williams/tAo/tuscon or Skeptic...back and forth exchanges..the questioning stumps Baba Ji and he signals for an escape helicopter...the spell is broken...Babi Ji now has a mob chasing him down Haynes Park...throwing sandals at him...he tries to reach for the hoist on the chopper but the pilot, fearing for his own life, ascends back into the air. Baba Ji; tearful, petrified and humiliated looks around at, what was once, his flock. They now resemble vultures and he is the carcass; draped in white; his face blackened with shame, resembling a sacrificial lamb. His final thoughts "This is what it must feel like to truly be a Saint".

People have very selective listening. GSD says there is no Sach khand and they still want to get to Sach khand. GSD says nobody will come at the time of death because duality is an illusion, so how can anyone possibly come? The satsangis continue to ask for grace and ask the master to please come at the time of their death to save their soul.

What does it take to get the message through? I uploaded two videos about it and still people thought I was saying something against RSSB - when I was simply pointing out that the teachings have changed.

A man walks into an ice cream shop.
“I would like a gallon of chocolate ice cream, please”
“Sorry we are all out of chocolate,” replied the shop clerk
“In that case, I will take a quart of chocolate ice cream, please”
“Listen, we don’t have any chocolate” replies the clerk again

“Well in that case I will have a double chocolate scoop please”
“Mister, we are all out of chocolate, ALL OUT!”

“Well I guess I’ll just take a small cup of chocolate ice cream in that case”

“Wait a second,” replies the clerk, “can you spell the water in watermelon?”
”Sure” replies the man, "W A T E R"
“Can you spell the gold in goldfish?”
“Easy: G O L D"
“Well, can you spell the fuck in chocolate?”

“Wait a second,” says the man, “There is no fuck in chocolate!”
“That is what I have been trying to tell you
There is no fucking chocolate”

In the same way there is no fucking Sach Khand and no fucking master will come at the time of your fucking death. And whether you fucking like it or not, the fucking teachings have fucking changed.

No fucking offence intended just in case you are fucking sensitive to the fucking word 'fuck'. Have a great fucking day.

Well fucking put Osho. It's an inner conundrum for Satsangi's these days. Some may have come to the path thinking it was the everlasting, unchangeable truth since the dawn of time and believing they had found the ultimate path would have quenched their thirst for spiritual enlightenment and success in the after life. Then Gurinder goes ahead and tweaks the foundations here and there....re-writing the ground rules...the two main attractions of dying as a satsangi...namely; access to Sach Khand and permanent Darshan of the Master.
I wish the Satsang in which GSD re-wrote Sant Mat was recorded....How have the Satsangi's interpreted GSD's words other than what seems apparent?

I love that GSD is changing Sant Mat to be more updated and no longer the old fashioned, dated, fairy story type teachings it used to be. Why the anger because of change? If the older, more set in their ways, type of satsangi don't like it then let them complain.

It just doesn't make sense that the commenters here who have moved away from Sant Mat are making this fuss about GSD changing things. What the!

Guess it keeps this blog going and make things interesting.

I like that he says there is no Sach Khand. Its easier to understand that we are not travelling or are on some kind of a soul journey to a higher plane of existence. Its a much better understanding imo that with practice we are able to raise our level of consciousness.

Is duality an illusion? Maybe this is the case once we have realised the oneness of everything, which is probably enlightenment. Who knows? I would love to have a conversation with GSD and not have to listen to hearsay!

As to "selective listening", yes we all do this all the time, according to our perceptions. Everyone has an agenda, some bloggers here are wannabe gurus... kinda obvious. As for myself, just saying there are a multitude of choices and different ways of looking at things.

I hope GSD continues to shock people out of their conditioning and brain washing.

My simran has granted me access to Sach Khand, and I am here to tell you that, yes, the teachings have changed. So much, in fact, that the teachings now deny their own authority and advise the aspirant to drop the whole business, quit being a sucker for gurus, spirituality, wishful nonsense, and face facts. You're going to die, so quit wasting your life by staking it on a pile of crap.

Observer: You would like "GSD to shock people out of their conditioning and brain washing"...
i.e. embrace the new/updated Sant Mat and reject the old...you do realise that the version you want satsangi's to be shocked "out of" is the version advocated by Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh....are you suggesting their versions are "old fashioned, dated story type teachings"? Are not all Masters from the same Shabd and therefore one in the same?
Should RSSB books that claim to hold esoteric truths such as Philosophy of Masters (written by Sawan) and Sar Bachan (written by Soami Ji) be discarded because GSD has decided to give it an upgrade?
If the Masters are all one and all knowing; why was an upgrade needed in the first place? Why was Sant Mat 3.0 not taught from the onset?
The previous Masters of RSSB implicitly and at time explicitly spoke of a journey that the soul makes and the need to see the Radiant Form of the master to undertake the journey safely. Science of Soul by Master Sardar Jagat Singh is very forthright about the various stages to Sach Khand and what one may encounter along the way to hinder the jiv.
I'm assuming you have had Naam? When you did; were you not told of a journey of going within, listening for the sound, crossing the Moon to meet the Radiant Form? The Radiant Form is definitely discussed in the Guide for Initiates booklet given at the time of receiving Naam. What was the point of upgrading The Truth/ re-vamping The Path when Kabir/Tulsi/Paltu/Guru Nanak/Soami Ji/ Sawan/ Charan all kept it the same and stated that it is the only truth that cannot be altered?
What implications does this have in terms of how future initiation sittings are undertaken?
I would sincerely like to know your thoughts on this matter.

"... the version advocated by Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh....are you suggesting their versions are "old fashioned, dated story type teachings"

Yes. The stories were for the mindset that people had in those times. I know this because this is the mindset that I had, which I now look back on and see as romantic, magical thinking, and although those teachings totally suited my way of thinking back then, they are no longer relevant.

Doesn't GSD says forget the books? Look at how Brian has changed since he wrote those books about Sant Mat.

You ask: "Are not all Masters from the same Shabd and therefore one in the same?"

WE are from the same Shabd (audible life stream, or whatever name you want to give it) and we are ALL one and the same. I was initiated in the sixties and times have changed. This is a totally different world to the one I grew up in. People are very skeptical now in this age of information.

You ask: "What implications does this have in terms of how future initiation sittings are undertaken?"

I have no idea because initiation sittings have nothing to do with me.

Just listening to Dr Richard Alan Miller, a Charan Singh initiate, talking to John B Wells, on youtube. A very interesting character, a physicist with an investigative mind. Check it out if you can, you will find him fascinating.

Thanks for the reply observer. As an initiate; do you still meditate using the Sant Mat method? How has GSD's words changed your approach to meditation; if at all? I am guessing you don't expect to see the Radiant Form during your Bhajan sessions?
Last question...when GSD re-worked the teachings; what were your initial feelings?
Regards

" I love that GSD is changing Sant Mat to be more updated and no longer the old fashioned, dated, fairy story type teachings it used to be. Why the anger because of change? If the older, more set in their ways, type of satsangi don't like it then let them complain."

--I guess I could be called one of the older satsangis. However, I am not set in my satsangi ways as I ceased all involvement with the religion back in the mid 1990's. I can't believe I bought into it and stuck with it for about a quarter century.

However, the older version of Sant Mat, called 1.0 by Osho Robbins, was presented as absolute truth at the time of intitiation with all the regions, sounds, sights, Kal the negative power, radiant forms, all the supernatural powers attributed to the sat guru... and a lot more I don't feel like listing such as the possibility of four lifetimes after intitiation to reach the goal of the now debunked, by Gurinder, fabled region of incomprehensible light and glory Sach Khand and the further mystery regions of Alakh, Agam and Anami. Basically, all bullshit according to him. How would that make a true believer in old school Sant Mat feel IF that was what drew them to the "path".

If version 1.0 was the absolute truth, the same path taught by all perfect GIHF masters throughout the ages, what does this make the new 2.0 version of Sant Mat taught by Gurinder Singh? At best, one or both of the versions are lies or deceptions.

So, If I were a satsangi now I'd be concerned about the validity of this path that keeps changing, ostensibly to suit the modern mindset. Sounds like Nike coming out with new shoe designs all the time to keep market share.

They say, "Oh that Gurinder, he is so hip and cool. Dumped all that fairy tale stuff like a hot potato."

Well, one day Gurinder's teaching will sound like a fairy tale to the followers of Sant Mant version 3.0.

These recent comments are marvellous. Really getting down to the nitty kritty... Maybe we are still just Satsangis, most of us still meditate, stick to the diet etc. What has changed.?... For me I'm never going to think of him as G~d incarnate..I'm never going to say Rhada Swami again... I don't and havn't for sometime thought in eastern phrase terms. Sat Purush, Kal etc.They are foreign words to me..I feel like a fake, a traitor to my own background when I use them. They make no sense...I like that Gurinder is hip, one of my fears was always that I would cease to be hip..I'm from the sixties, intitated 61... I prefer his approach to Charans....One of the things that blew me away was that he could quote poetry the way he did..He seemed to know those that I knew and would interject them in his satsangs... So why have I left...I became claustrafobic.. I could no longer breath and there are many other reasons....But the overwhelming one is that I feel I am betraying something very deep inside of me...Maybe I was tortured in the Inquistion and its a memory..But I don't except reincarnation anymore as a explanation so that won't do...I'll just have to go deeper, stay on this forum, and hope for direction..............Just to add if I acess my progress I'v made more since I came here 3 months ago than I did in 51 years....I have more clarity, peace, joy than ever befor.. I also feel more connected and that at last I'm on my way.

Also 9th Gate and observer this crap all masters are one. Its eastern nonsence... I am me and you are you...We are all connected through our common humanity..To say Gurinder and Jesus are one and the same.....I say here....:WHERE IS THE PROOF:...Its a Con....Do not take away my identity......:Let not the man who is beast or who thinks he god come near me. Do not make me A cog in a machine....Otherwise Kill Me. With deep gratitude to Louis Macniece on his poem "Prayer befor Birth"

If by my comments I appear anti east. That is not the case. I have transcended barriers of gender, cast and race. I was taught by the gurus that this world is an illusion. That was misleading. It nearly destroyed my soul and very nearly ruined my life....I live in Africa. I am a child of its soil.I feel its heart beat...When the sun rises in the east and I listen to the birds sing I wake up....When it Sets in the West and you go to sleep, it has travelled its course....Tucson has long been pondering the nature of time, so has Mike Williams. When I can feel in total what they feel I shall know more. I say feel as I am woMAN .That is my nature.

June I am happy for you. It's liberating to think out of the box due to one's own volition without feeling that one is betraying a certain path or Master. Sometimes you find there are lots of boxes to find thought in and lots of boxes to think outside of. Clarity, peace and joy can seem like fleeting moments and even intangible at best so when you get some, enjoy it and relish it :-)Peace and be Wild.

It was said that Gurinder Singh is changing RSSB. How so? Has he changed its practice or beliefs? Are these changes publicly described anywhere?

Isn't it possible to meditate on the sound without having to believe anything, visualize the Master or pine for Sach Khand?

It is difficult to obtain simple instructions without joining a group, getting initiation, adopting beliefs and being taught about Perfect Master etc. Certainly payment of money is required with some of these groups.

And one is told that the Master connects the practitioner to the sound current, when in fact anybody can hear it.

Much has been written about Shabd but I have found only a handful of little-known books that actually tell you how to do it. Some of these contain unrelated baggage before you get to the procedure.

I am interested in doing a (short) book that says, here's a practice that can benefit and delight you on your path, it is natural and you don't have to delude yourself or give devotional energy to bearded men on the other side of the planet.

And for crying out loud, you don't have to put your fingers in your ears. Earplugs, what a concept...

Presiding dieties, chakras, sounds.. You don't need a guru. All they do is take your money. Here is the 5 name initiation mantra. Stick your thumbs in your ears, with fingers over eyes and elbows on knees. Peer into darkness. Listen to sound from right ear with right hand thumb pressed over earlobe. No one gets anywhere with this even with a guru, even if you meditate 30 years.

Howard, your comment was a bit insulting yes, no doubt about it. But in a sense you make a good point (forget about the slugs and the slime). I have heard now from many satsangi friends how this blog and similar anti-RSSB blogs are actually making people very interested in the path. I know at least one person who was not sure about applying for initiation, and after reading some posts in this blog decided to go for it.

So in RSSB jargon, Brian is doing some great seva. :)

It reminds me of that joke about the two cab drivers. One was a very correct driver, never ran any red lights, was polite to his clients, followed all traffic rules. The other was the opposite. He was reckless, broke all rules, was always overspeeding, etc. One day they crashed against each other in an accident and both died. They both went up to heaven and the good cab driver was turned back, while the reckless cab driver was taken in. Shocked at this, the good cab driver asked St. Peter how come the other guy who was a reckless man was allowed in, and St Peter's response was simple. "You see, every time someone came into this guy's cab, his driving was to bad and reckless that they all started praying. So he accumulated the merit for leading so many thousands of people to pray for so many years, and that's why we're keeping him here."

I like this blog ..always good to read critical view on Sant math and see the other side of the coin and weigh the considerations..

I stumbled upon Sant Math last year (2013) after reading Julian P Johnson's "Path of the Masters" and was reading up on history and lineage and books of Past Masters(Kabir, Shiv Dayal, Sawan singh and Kirpal Singh)

some questions to those who were on Radhasoami for long time .
But how can I be sure of the authenticity of current masters...
1)Who is the real Living master at present with real power to take initiate (hand hold) to definite salvation and not just promises...

2)will the Masters(Baljith Singh/ Gurinder or others in the Sant mat lineage) be with initiates here and hereafter at death etc..

There can be more than one True Living Master at the same time. For example, from Indian history, Sant. Ravidas Ji and Sant. Kabir saheb Ji were contemporary.

I don't know and can not comment, but for me, without a slightest trace of doubt, my loving Babaji at Dear Beas (RSSB) are indeed the True Living Master.

Also, it's the biggest instance of the life of a seeker when he surrenders himself to a Master and decides to try to walk the path. I think these decisions can't be make on online forums, forums can be inspiring both in positive or negative directions depending on from which angle you are taking the things... but the final decision should be made by visiting and listening to their actual teachings.

I'd like to recommend you to visit every sect, listen to their discourses and once you're fully satisfied with a particular path, that it is The Path, that would be the right time to make the decision.

@Seeker, Don't get caught up in looking for numbers or signs of truth and lies in this and that lineage. There are dozens and obviously any disciple will tell you theirs is the one true perfect living master, etc. And let's not get started on how much negativity you will find whether or not you look for it.

Ultimately only you can decide, and there is only one way to be sure. If you think you've found a legitimate master, seek initiation and:
1. Commit to the lifestyle requirements, which for most people only really requires a change of diet.
2. Commit 100% to following the meditation instructions without deviating. Give this a reasonable period of time (3-6 months, say). This should be long enough for you to be able to make a valid, reasonable assessment of the results.
3. If you're satisfied, carry on. If not, don't be afraid to move on. Sant Mat is not based on public testimony or wishful thinking.

Ishwar Puri's talks on YouTube are good. And there is some good free literature out there from Sawan Singh and Kirpal Singh.

as a start i'm not a RSSB initiate, i eat meat and enjoy the odd drink. at the same time i am very spiritually aware through my own personal journey. i do believe in a sant mat path but it's not the easiest and not for the faint hearted, besides you do not need a living guru to tell you how or be an initiate. I sat amongst some loyal RSSB followers and the talk of bhajans and the guru started so i had a few words about spiritualism in all it's glory and put them in their place simply because i was bored listening. they were left speechless and lost for words and further after knowing i enjoy what i eat and drink. my point is while you're sitting there waiting for your so called guru and businessman Mr Dhillon to guide you, if you take a step to guide yourself you will actually get somewhere. yes you will make mistakes (who doesn't? its called being human) but you will learn and gather wisdom as you strive to gain that perfect social and spiritual balance.

I have seen families close to falling apart because of this RSSB rubbish and all i have learnt is that people seem to think when you die you have that safety assurance that your satguru is there to take you to heaven and yet they are countlessly blind to their own issues, personal qualities they face and lack in real life. I can see the bigger picture and it isn't working.

I read an article about Fortis healthcare, Religare and their insider share dealing with Mr Dhillon sons and it don't surprise me. Mr Dhillon is always flying around to US, Spain, UK, India and it does make me wonder where the money is coming from. now I know.

Did yo know there is a doctor curing most cancers by putting baking soda injections on tumors ?

Yes i use soda for cleaning laundrey begetablrs fruits and i am washing teeth and i also use it for enemas,
look for clean soda without aluminium,, solvay,,,
But best for body cleans are vegetable juices and doing enemas and than taking some stuff against parasites, guy try the last and youll see miracles but take probiotics affter enemas

Thanks for the entertainment! Especially the chocky ice-cream one Osho Robbins! One will hear when one is ready. The time is right to hear objectively and shred the illusions. Kindergarten is over - time to graduate. However, meditation is difficult and one can only have insights to wisdom according to one's intellectual ability and personal "insights" of experience, which are often beyond language. You are the Master. His Holiness the Dali Lama went to the Dera and attended one of Gurinder's satsangs.I wish that I had been there. To me Buddhism and Sant Mat are one and the same. In fact, there is no religion only the truth and really,I mean, how is it possible for us to realise this permanent unchanging true truth as mere mortals, unless we are astrophysicists or quantum theorists? All of whom are forever learning and changing their knowledge.The Buddhist explanation on emptiness and objective and subjective phenomena is profound to say the least.You only get what you are ready to get, when you are ready to receive it. Do you not think that Gurinder is taking Radha Soami Satsang Beas to another level in that it is time to up the pace and move it to another sphere of understanding? Everything evolves. As for the the Fortis Health Care and the Regligare Companies, well you need financial wealth to make changes in this world. And "pray" tell me who actually runs our planet - the Bilderberg group and the Rothchilds etc. Are they broke??? I don't think so. I think there is also a Nordic vegetarian food company that the Dhillons and Charan Singh's sons are invloved in too. I would rather that the planet's food and health care be dominated by a benign force than that of a malign one. It takes money to make benign changes and decades also. You'll see. Do you not think that the Fortis Health Care is not an extension and evolvement of the original hospital at Beas? Anyway it is love and affection that always wins and "Nada" (the Shabd) is the pure force or energy that can change all. I see just today, online that scientists have proved the theory discovered 80 years ago that light can be turned into matter. Religion is really just an explanation of science. Light and sound - solidifying matter - fine tuning matter back to light = Surat Shabd Yog.http://www.universetoday.com/112044/physicists-pave-the-way-to-turn-light-into-matter/ E=MC2. Mass and energy/light and sound. Radha Soami and Om Mani Padme Hum oh and Amen too! Gyani
See www.gyanithepeacockfairy.com and You Tube Fairy Gyani for a children's fairy story based on my little Sant Mat experience.

Sorry the above typo should have read His Holiness the Dalai Lama. What will happen to all religion and philosophies and wisdom beliefs when, (and it will happen no doubt) when and if we have to reincarnate back to the following prospects?http://www.thrivemovement.com/dialogue-transhumanism-chu-and-hubbard-respond.blog
I have taken this, what I quote below out of context, but who can understand Revelations in the New Testament anyway? (And we all know religion was created by man for other men to have power over the masses – although a consistent truth and wisdom does run through the essence of all).
Revelations:Chpt9: V6: And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and death shall flee from them.
Sounds like something out of the Alien movies what precedes and follows this verse. Or, could it be relating to the future of transhumanism? How frightening! Will the Arnie Terminator movies become a reality?
However,moving on, to quote Shantideva from “The Way of the Bodhisattva” (a Satsangi's way of life too)
Widsom Chapter
#55 Whatever is the source of suffering, Let that be the object of our fear. But voidness will ally our every grief, How could it be for us a thing of dread?
#56 If such a thing as “I” exists indeed, Then terrors, granted, will torment it. But since no self of “I” exists at all, What is there left for fears to terrify?
#57-59 Go on to say that the aggregates of the physical body are not the “I”. “And “I” is not accounted for in sixfold consciousness.”
#60 If the hearing consciousness is permanent, It follows that it’s hearing all the time. And if there is no object, what does it cognize? On what grounds do you call it consciousness?
#61 If something that’s unconscious knows, It follows that a stick has knowledge also, Therefore in the absence of a thing to know, It’s clear that consciousness will not arise.
#62 If the selfsame consciousness detects a form, At that time, why does it not hear? Perhaps you say the sound’s no longer there. Then neither is there consciousness of sound.
The other verses are too many to write here on the “self” and the “I”.
#77 The source of sorrow is the pride of saying “I’, It’s fostered and increased by false belief in self. To this you may believe that there is no redress, But meditation on no-self will be the supreme way.
Hence the need for a Master or Gurus to shift focus from the “self” in order to realise the true nature of all phenomena. Without an object the subject cannot exist and without a subject the object cannot exist.
When you make the connection of Master/disciple then you see the there is only one.
#66 (Shantideva) “But its different modes,” you say, “are quite unreal”. Its essence therefore you must now describe. You say that this is simply knowing. It follows that all beings are a single thing.
(I have taken #66 out of context to make a point – there is only one). If an aggregate from the one thinks it has independent arising then it is sadly mistaken. That’s all. Simple isn’t it?
Radha Soami
Gyani The Peacock Fairy

"Hence the need for a Master or Gurus to shift focus from the “self” in order to realise the true nature of all phenomena. Without an object the subject cannot exist and without a subject the object cannot exist."

---If there is a need to shift focus from the self it seems there are many objects other than a master via which to accomplish this. A caterpillar will do.

The question is whether there is any need to shift focus in the first place. If we are "one" we are that anyway and at death we will return to the undifferentiated state without any effort on our part.

If the "one" wishes to "wake up" while in its dream, fine, but there is nothing "it" can do to cause this to happen nor any "one" to make it happen because there isn't any "one" in the first place. It just happens, or not. It really doesn't matter. Nothing really matters other than the doing of it, the living of it, dreaming or awake.

Enjoy the show of yourself to yourself by yourself. It's all the same regardless of the angle via which it is perceived.

Still though, I have a hard time believing people like Ishwar Puri are lying to us?! That's clearly an absurd proposition. He's a good man and he's not lying to us and Sach Khand is real and you're already there you just need to tune your consciousness into the higher realities.

Ishwar used to be a major chick magnet at one time. Very charismatic fellow, but this does not necessarily indicate that he was fundamentally any different from the rest of us like some cosmic fountainhead of enlightenment. I mean, Jim Jones was charismatic too. Ishwar most likely is just another slob on the bus trying to find his way home. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

I read your book named "Life is Fair" which is a fantastic book I have ever read on metaphysics (Sant Mat) but your blog shows, you are no longer follower of sant mat. During reading your book, I came across the following statement:

" Spiritual Realization is not usually achieved in just a few years. It is the work of life time. Patience, perseverance and diligent adherence to a spiritual way of life are required" (Page-160)

I wanna inquire, Why your faith shook after 30 years of struggle as you believe that its a life long process ?

Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Thank you for just being there!
After being battered by all the beliefs & dogmas heaped on me (in India), I had to crawl over many walls & fences, worst of all - the security of sincere advice from family, friends & well-wishers.
I should consider myself lucky now to have met some sensible people at last. I have a load of doubts and questions. But first, I want to share what I found -
1. Things seem to "take place" when we pray or meditate passionately.
2. Contrary to the belief that only living masters can guide us, it appears that past masters(like Jesus) ACTUALLY DO seem to help us! (and guide us in a roundabout way)

As for my doubts & questions, the material found here should do the needful.
I thank David Lane for his video on Baba Fakir Chand which has helped me take a bold step in the right direction.

Are all the detailed explanations of the various planes (astral, causal, mental, etheric, and the layers of pure spiritual realms above all that) that are mentioned in Sant Mat literature basically all just a myth and made up story...fantasies that don't really exist outside the realm of imagination? Or are they true and has anyone hear experienced them...but not to be mistaken for dreams? I do know that it is a scientific fact that people who are born blind and have been blind their entire life (never having the use of vision) don't have visionary dreams. So those who say dreams are the spirit world where we leave our body and travel in our spirit body in the spirit world are mistaken otherwise people born blind would see in dreams and have visionary experiences. But they don't. They only hear different sounds in their dreams (unless they are deaf too). Dreams are none other then the brain and subconscious making something of what we have seen or read etc. But if various planes in Sant Mat are true localities and spiritual levels that can be experienced with inner vision surly a person born blind can experience them too if they are real?

Everyone's experience with "the path" is unique, and it's not just Sant Mat which can lead one to higher realms. It's the inner light and sound, which is transmitted through a living master.

It's not just phenomenal experience which informs you of whether or not it is working for you. I don't know that this can be called a religion at all, but it is an intimate spiritual journey, and there are many miracles and experiences which happen to an initiate on the path.

It's true that some individuals don't have success for many years, but it's not true that the path is flawed. When looking for flaws, it is easy to find them since your attention is focused outside.

This is the story of unsuccessful people who have failed. For a change, talk about people who have had success with meditations. I've had numerous miracles, enjoyment so great that it can't be explained while doing Sound meditation. However, your Master must be a true Master otherwise you don't get these experiences. Whatever I wish, it comes true 90% of the times - can somebody have a claim like this? I don't know the inner planes but I do know you can leave the body and enjoy something that you can't find in this world.

And it's not because of the Sant Mat theory that I follow this path. It is because of my own experience with Sound and Light meditation. I think Radha Soami group is bogus. They only have theoretical knowledge, not practical.
When I went to Beas some years back, everybody seemed to be having a picnic, and nobody was meditating. There is a lot more that I can talk about, but maybe another time....

Brian says: "The disciple has this feeling of superiority and it is unavoidable because he knows he is part of the chosen few in this world."

Yes, thats how I used to feel when I was a devout satsangi and then I changed to:

"An honest person can only say "I don't know." He is neither a believer nor a dis-believer."

About delusion. After many years I am now reading Spiritual Gems again. I like that its letters written by Sawan Singh so its like hearing him speaking in a very honest and matter of fact way. This is the Sant Mat I fell in love with. His purity and honesty shines through not like the posturing of the current guru, who seems to be playing a game, also I was not impressed with the one time I saw Charan.

This truly is a huge confirmation, for me, of how powerful the mind is and how it can control us. I started out as a faithful and vulnerable seeker initiated by Charan and I used to think that Gurinder was quite cool in being different and using an acting role to shock people out of their comfort zone.

tucson says in his comment above: "They say, "Oh that Gurinder, he is so hip and cool. Dumped all that fairy tale stuff like a hot potato. Well, one day Gurinder's teaching will sound like a fairy tale to the followers of Sant Mant version 3.0."

Very true, when I scrutinise my inner thoughts and feelings now, version 3.0 has turned me right off the path and now reading Sawan Singh's book it seems like I am resonating again with the old teachings!

Spiritual Gems was the first Sant Mat book I read. It hooked me instantly to the Path.
I read it quite often, especially before meditating, in the special 6 months period (Grace period) immediately after initiation and it helped me progress a lot.

Having read almost all the Sant Mat books and other religious books including the Adi Granth, I can safely say that this is THE BOOK for the seeker on their way to the ultimate - rest everything is supposed to happen within.

I still refer to on a daily basis - randomly opening it and reading a letter or two to calm the mind before sitting for meditations.

BTW, Ishwar Puri - youngest to given full initiation by Baba Sawan Singh at the age of 9 in 1936 and started seeing the "Radiant Form" of Baba Sawan Singh before the Great Master left the physical plane - also frequently mentions the Spiritual Gems which has a lot of precise meditation instructions.

Your comment made me remember the important role love and devotion plays in our lives.

I imagine sitting in front of a highly evolved being like Sawan Singh and wonder what that would be like.
Even though the mind is tricky I'm thinking maybe I'll do a meditation and ask the Great Master to appear - that will be mind blowing :)

:) Baba Sawan Singh has had a strong pull on me and the feelings of love and devotion naturally arise in me by merely thinking about him.

If it helps any, here are some meditation tips/suggestions:

"You should utilize more the power of seeing. While you use the power of hearing, look at the focus and hear the Sound as if it is issuing from the center. Concentrate, hold the attention at the eye focus, and hear while sitting in that focus"Page 150 of The Dawn of Light (Baba Sawan Singh)

The repetition of the Names is incomplete until the mind has ceased to generate thought and the body is senseless. Baba Sawan Singh (Letter 35, Page 115 The Dawn of Light)

During repetition please focus your attention in the eye center without putting any strain upon your eyes; rather fix your attention a little to the left corner of the right eye (It is the attention of the mind that should be concentrated, and the eye should not try to focus on any particular spot), that is not quite midway between the two eyes, but inclining a little towards the right eye. Letter 35 – Baba Sawan Singh (The Dawn of Light)

"There are ten different sounds audible in the region of the eye center — drum, whistle, violin, and so forth including the Bell and the Conch. Eight of these are local but the Bell and the Conch are connected with the higher regions. As the attention is withdrawn from the body and concentration improves, and the eye center is being approached, these sounds begin to be audible. As the mind becomes steady and sticks to the center, it begins to distinguish one sound from the other. In the beginning one listens to whatever sound is audible, but with the improvement in concentration, this gives place to some finer sound. Ultimately one picks up the Bell and rejects others. The Bell will take one as far as the thousand petalled lotus, and from there one catches the Conch."Spiritual Gems - Letter 87 (Baba Sawan Singh)

In addition, from Ishwar Puri videos on youtube -
1. M.IMP. Do meditation with love and devotion.
2. Be a listener to the Simran. Attention should be on listening. Secret is listening and not merely repeating.
3. Repeat Simran very slowly in order to listen to what your are repeating. Repetition is not as important as listening to what you are repeating. The soul listens. The mind speaks. We want the soul to be involved. The mind is doing the repetition for you. The soul is listening to what you are doing. You will be pulled in better if you listen to what you are repeating than thinking of something else while you are repeating. You Attention should be on listening to what you are repeating. So, if you repeat slowly understanding each word every syllable of it clearly what you are saying it will help you.
4. Listening is the key – how you (the soul) intently listen to the Simran is the important thing.
5. V.IMP. Do not attempt meditation until you have located yourself behind the eyes at the third eye center. We want to pull the attention back to our own self where it is operating at the third eye center. First practice locating yourself behind the eyes. Practice to stay in the center of the head. Eyes are in front of you. Ears are on the side of you. Then only start meditating.
6. It is important that you feel that you are actually sitting in the head behind the eye center. That this body is a house that has many floors (6 floors) and you are sitting on the 6th floor (eye center) behind the eye. Third eye is a Point behind the eyes and between the ears.
7. Put your attention there. Imagine you are there. There is the 3rd eye center. No need to search for it. When you are awake you are at the 3rd eye center. Don’t identify with the body. Body is something I am sitting in. Sitting in the head of the body. Close your eyes. You are sitting behind the eyes right in the center of the head.
8. Relax the eyes. Don’t put any strain on the eyes. Put attention on the eye center.
9. When you repeat. Repetition is not enough. Listen attentively to those words. Listening attentively draws you to yourself. Soul your real self is the listener and not the speaker. To speak it has been given an agency called the mind. When your repeat with the mind listen attentively. The more you listen attentively the more you are withdrawing the attention. At some point you will be able to hear the sounds inside. Several sounds – some very coarse – sound of thunder – sound of truck going outside – sound of bricks falling – waterfall. All these sounds are generated from the physical self or sensory/astral self and they do not come from the self. Most of these sounds are not in the center but they come from the sides. Many sounds come from the left side and many sounds come from the right side. Some come from the center. Some are undefined. They look like surround sound. They come from all over. When you hear these sounds if you only hear some sounds from the right side start listening to it for practice. Practicing also helps you to withdraw your attention to your own self. Once you are able to withdraw attention to some extent the real sound will start coming from the self. We are so distracted by the outside sounds outside experiences that it takes a while to reach the real sound in the center. The real sound appears to come from your real self at the third eye center or a little above it. The side sounds are very temporary. If you hear sounds from both sides, prefer the right side. That is the intuitive side of the brain the left is the reasoning side of it and just helps a little bit. The real sound comes from the center and is coming from your own self and the sound is not coming from the physical self at all is coming from internal self a Third eye center of the inner body which is also there it is coming from the formless body of the mind which is also there it is coming from the soul, from your true home

There's something happening in a kind of shift inside me because I feel quite emotional (love and devotion). Have saved your comment into a word document. I think you have helped - probably because you're not preachy - which I rebel against :)