The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

With respect to the idea of an awakened master transferring their "mind" (thugs) to a disciple, this is a form of blessing. It does not mean that now the student has all the teachers thoughts and knowledge, memories, experiences, and so on.

Well.. a funny claim of that happened here and is an obvious distortion, but they refer to it as an example of drong juk...
is that the official Tibetan term for transferring thugs to a disciple or it a related but different phenomenon they're referencing?

Malcolm, I'm approaching this question of mine from a place of genuine curiosity rather than a need to contradict or debate. I recall a recent(?) topic in which you appeared to argue the possibility of plant sentience with reference to a text that recounts an encounter with the deva "inhabiting" a tree. I believe that you or someone else made the argument that the deva could have even a personification of the tree's hypothetical mind. How does the discussion in that topic square with this statement of yours I'm quoting? Have your views evolved, or did you never hold the opinion that plants are sentient? Thanks for your time!

Dharma blessings,

Eric

ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ
Oṃ Āḥ Hūṃ
Om Ah Hung

"Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free."

Yes, if you have a look through Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Shurangama Sutra you will find him discussing three spiritual and seven physical souls that reside in the body which, if I am not mistaken, are none other than the hun and po.
See e.g. http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_3.asp

I found it strange he mentioned things such as these, I feel like it was upaya in a particular setting or audience. His commentaries on other texts were fairly orthodox and Master Xuan Hua clearly understands the Buddhist teachings on mind as he has a good commentary on the "Verses of the Eight Consciousnesses" by the Yogacara master Xuan Zang.

With respect to the idea of an awakened master transferring their "mind" (thugs) to a disciple, this is a form of blessing. It does not mean that now the student has all the teachers thoughts and knowledge, memories, experiences, and so on.

Well.. a funny claim of that happened here and is an obvious distortion, but they refer to it as an example of drong juk...
is that the official Tibetan term for transferring thugs to a disciple or it a related but different phenomenon they're referencing?

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Malcolm, I'm approaching this question of mine from a place of genuine curiosity rather than a need to contradict or debate. I recall a recent(?) topic in which you appeared to argue the possibility of plant sentience with reference to a text that recounts an encounter with the deva "inhabiting" a tree. I believe that you or someone else made the argument that the deva could have even a personification of the tree's hypothetical mind. How does the discussion in that topic square with this statement of yours I'm quoting? Have your views evolved, or did you never hold the opinion that plants are sentient? Thanks for your time!

Dharma blessings,

Eric

Hi Eric:

Yes, I have entertained the idea of plant sentience because like any living thing, they have life force (prāṇa) and they breath. But I make a clear distinction between my speculative inquiry and what is actually taught in Buddhadharma,

Classical Buddhist doctrine, including Dzogchen does not admit to such an idea; apart from some trends of Sino-Japanese Buddhism.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

I actually saw several of his lectures with this same teaching about soul fragmentation and defragmentation. There was mention that this is a common teaching in Chinese Buddhism? Wonder besides Master Hsuan Hua, who else has taught this?

Yes, if you have a look through Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Shurangama Sutra you will find him discussing three spiritual and seven physical souls that reside in the body which, if I am not mistaken, are none other than the hun and po.
See e.g. http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_3.asp

I found it strange he mentioned things such as these, I feel like it was upaya in a particular setting or audience. His commentaries on other texts were fairly orthodox and Master Xuan Hua clearly understands the Buddhist teachings on mind as he has a good commentary on the "Verses of the Eight Consciousnesses" by the Yogacara master Xuan Zang.

I actually saw several of his lectures with this same teaching about soul fragmentation and defragmentation. There was mention that this is a common teaching in Chinese Buddhism? Wonder besides Master Hsuan Hua, who else has taught this?

Yes, if you have a look through Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Shurangama Sutra you will find him discussing three spiritual and seven physical souls that reside in the body which, if I am not mistaken, are none other than the hun and po.
See e.g. http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_3.asp

I found it strange he mentioned things such as these, I feel like it was upaya in a particular setting or audience. His commentaries on other texts were fairly orthodox and Master Xuan Hua clearly understands the Buddhist teachings on mind as he has a good commentary on the "Verses of the Eight Consciousnesses" by the Yogacara master Xuan Zang.

I wonder how the multiple tulku phenomenon fits into the discussion. I've heard of body, speech, and mind tulkus, and in fact it was a plot point in Little Buddha. I attached a screen shot from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's Blazing Splendor and Tulku Thondop's Incarnation. I found this from HHDL:

Usually a reincarnation has to be someone’s taking rebirth as a human being after previously passing away. Ordinary sentient beings generally cannot manifest an emanation before death (ma-dhey tulku), but superior Bodhisattvas, who can manifest themselves in hundreds or thousands of bodies simultaneously, can manifest an emanation before death. Within the Tibetan system of recognizing Tulkus there are emanations who belong to the same mind-stream as the predecessor, emanations who are connected to others through the power of karma and prayers, and emanations who come as a result of blessings and appointment.

The main purpose of the appearance of a reincarnation is to continue the predecessor’s unfinished work to serve Dharma and beings. In the case of a Lama who is an ordinary being, instead of having a reincarnation belonging to the same mind-stream, someone else with connections to that Lama through pure karma and prayers may be recognized as his or her emanation. Alternatively it is possible for the Lama to appoint a successor who is either his disciple or someone young who is to be recognized as his emanation. Since these options are possible in the case of an ordinary being, an emanation before death that is not of the same mind-stream is feasible. In some cases one high Lama may have several reincarnations simultaneously, such as incarnations of body, speech and mind and so on. In recent times, there have been well-known emanations before death such as Dudjom Jigdral Yeshe Dorje and Chogye Trichen Ngawang Khyenrab.

There is no canonical basis for the idea of reincarnations of body, speech, mind, etc.

That said, there is canonical basis for bodhisattvas having exponentially more emanations from the first bhumi one ward which increase by powers of ten, thus a tenth stage bodhisattva can have 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, i.e. one hundred septillion emanations.

And every Buddha has an emanation in every world in a given billion-world universe (1000 to the third power).

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

So, I found this story about a frog being immediately born in heaven upon being killed while attentively listen to the Buddha's teaching. The frog did not have to be de-fragmented/integrated with his other 'souls' for this particular rebirth.

At one time while the Blessed One was teaching the Bhamma to the inhabitants of the City of Campa, on the Banks of the Gaggara Lake, a Frog, listening to the discourse, developed great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Lore doped great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Load Buddha’s voice. At that moment a cowherd leaned against his staff, which happened to crush the frog’s head and the frog was immediately reborn in the Heaven of the 33 Deities, inside of a celestial palace (Vimana), as if awakening from a dream.
Thinking to himself, ‘So now I am here? What deed did I do?’
He realized that the had been reborn in the Tavatimsa heaven as the result of his pure mind in the moment of listening to the Lord Buddha’s Discourse.
He departed with his diving palace at once to the Blessed One and worshipped at his feet. Although the Lord knew all about it, he asked him:
‘Who now pays homage at my feet,
Shining with glory and success,
Illumination all around
With beauty so outstanding?”

‘In my last life I was a frog’
The waters of a pond my home;
A cowherd’s staff ended my life
While listening to your Dhamma.’

So, I found this story about a frog being immediately born in heaven upon being killed while attentively listened to the Buddha's teaching. The frog did not have to be de-fragmented/integrated with his so-called other 'souls' for this particular rebirth.

At one time while the Blessed One was teaching the Bhamma to the inhabitants of the City of Campa, on the Banks of the Gaggara Lake, a Frog, listening to the discourse, developed great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Lore doped great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Load Buddha’s voice. At that moment a cowherd leaned against his staff, which happened to crush the frog’s head and the frog was immediately reborn in the Heaven of the 33 Deities, inside of a celestial palace (Vimana), as if awakening from a dream.
Thinking to himself, ‘So now I am here? What deed did I do?’
He realized that the had been reborn in the Tavatimsa heaven as the result of his pure mind in the moment of listening to the Lord Buddha’s Discourse.
He departed with his diving palace at once to the Blessed One and worshipped at his feet. Although the Lord knew all about it, he asked him:
‘Who now pays homage at my feet,
Shining with glory and success,
Illumination all around
With beauty so outstanding?”

‘In my last life I was a frog’
The waters of a pond my home;
A cowherd’s staff ended my life
While listening to your Dhamma.’