This is an edited PermaThread®, used for a special project. This thread will be moderated. Feel free to post to this thread, but remember that all messages posted here are subject to editing or deletion.-Joe Offer-

Hi,

About two days ago I started a ballad study of the "Died for Love" ballads. I need your help to try and sift through the myriad versions and variants.

I'll start with a few questions that I have.

1) Do you know of any Irish versions or broadsides of "Rambling Boy"?

2) Is there an older version of "Sheffield Park" online- that dates to the 1700s?

3) What are some early versions (pre-1700s) of "Died for Love" and what is the origin (first source and date) of this last stanza?

from The Treasury of Musick-Lawes 1669:

Last, build my tomb of lovers' bones, Set round about with marble-stones, My Scutcheon bearing Venus Dove, My epitaph, I died for love.

4) What is the earliest "Brisk Young Sailor" version? other "brisk Young" versions?

5) What is source of late 1700s, "Answer to the Rambling Boy"?

6) Does anyone have or can find "The cruel father, or, deceived maid" or "A squire's daughter" both apparently begin "A squire's daughter near Aclecloy."

7. What are different spelling for "Aclecloy" ?

8. When did alehouse (tavern) become added and what version was it added to?

A brisk young sailor courted me, He stole away my liberty, He stole my heart with a free good will, I must confess I love him still. Down in the meadows she did run, A gathering flowers as they sprung, Every sort she gave a pull, Till she had gathered her apron full.

When first I wore my apron low, He followed me through frost and snow, But now my apron is up to my chin, He passes by and says nothing. There is an alehouse in this town, Where my love goes and sits him down, He takes another girl on his knee, Why is not that a grief to me.

Ah, griev'd I am, I'll tell you why, Because she has more gold than I, Her gold will waste, her beauty blast, Poor girl she'll come like me at last, I wish my baby it was born, Set smiling on its father's knee, And I was dead and in my grave, And green grass growing over me.

There is a bird all in yonder tree, Some say 'tis blind, and cannot see, I wish it had been the same by me, Before I had gained my love's company, There is a man on yonder hill, He has a heart as hard as steel, He has two hearts instead of one, He'll be a rogue when I am gone.

But when they found her corpse was cold, They went to her false love and told, I am glad says he, she has done so well, I long to hear her funeral knell, In Abraham's bosom she does sleep, While his tormenting soul must weep, He often wished his time o'er again, That his bride he might make her merry & marry her soon.

Image: Vignette wood engraving showing lovers standing and holding hands, before a tree and cottage to the left (birds on the ground in the foreground), and a sailboat on water to the right in the background.

Here's one more branch the north American branch where it also appears as a cowboy song:

Text from a broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City.

The Butcher Boy.

In Jersey City, where I did dwell, A butcher-boy I loved so well, He courted me my heart away, And now with me he will not stay. There is an inn in the same town, Where my love goes and sits him down; He takes a strange girl on his knee, And tells to her what he don't tell me.

It's a grief for me; I'll tell you why: Because she has more gold than I; But her gold will melt, and her silver fly; In time of need, she'll be poor as I. I go up-stairs to make my bed, But nothing to my mother said; My mother comes up-stairs, to me Saying "What's the matter, my daughter dear?"

"Oh! mother, mother! you do not know What grief, and pain, and sorrow, woe? Go get a chair to sit me down, And a pen and ink to write it down." On every line she dropped a tear, While calling home her Willie dear; And when her father he came home, He said, "Where is my daughter gone?"

He went up-stairs, the door he broke? He found her hanging upon a rope? He took his knife and he cut her down, And in her breast those lines were found: "Oh! what a silly maid am I! To hang myself for a butcher-boy! Go dig my grave, both long and deep; Place a marble-stone at my head and feet, And on my breast a turtle dove, To show the world I died for love!"

Kittredge reported 5 print versions in the 1800s- this was one of them dated about 1880s. I have a copy of the broadside which I'll eventually post, Wehman reprinted this in the early 1900s.

There's a circa 1860 print from New York in the Bodleian and I've seen one more US early print.

So to answer your question, I'd say four print versions in the US predated it. As far as it's influence- there are many version that begin with "In Jersey City" but also many that slightly change the name.

I just like the "an inn in" part - There was an inn in. . . sinmg that a couple times.

Here's The Rambling Boy from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; printed 1799 and 1803. It also has "Answer to Rambling Boy" which I'll post separately. See also "An Excellent Garland" Manchester printed by G. Swindells dated 1800. This version is much older (some prints date c. 1750) and better than the Pitts version posted earlier.

THE RAMBLING BOY.

I am a rake and a rambling boy. I'm lately come from Auchnacloy; A rambling boy although I be, I'll forsake them all and go with thee.

My father promis'd me houses and land. If I would be at his command; At his command, love, I ne'er will be ; I'll forsake them all love and go with thee.

For houses and land they are but a plot, Houses and land I do value not; For houses and garden I will provide, And have my darling down by my side.

Well doth he know I can shape and few, Well doth he know I can bake and brew, I can wash his linen and dress them fine. And yet lie's gone and left me behind.

O Willie Baillie ye told me lies, You'd build me castles up to the skies, And every river should have a brigg, And every finger a fine gold ring.

O Billy, Billy, I love thee well, I love thee better than tongue can tell, I love thee well though I dare not show it, My dearest dear, let no man know it.

I wish I were a black-bird or thrush, Singing my notes from bush to bush; That all the world might plainly fee, I lov'd a man, and he lov'd not me.

Or was I, but a silly fly, In my love's bosom then would I lie. When all the world was fall asleep, In my love's bosom then would I creep.

My love he came late in the night, Seeking for his sweet-heart's delight; He ran up stairs, the door he broke, And found his love all in a rope.

Then he went up and cut her down, And in her bosom a note was found, Wrote in shining letters to bright, Enough a mortal's heart to break.

"Go dig my grave both wide and deep, And cover it with a marble stone; And in the middle a turtle dove, To show the world that I dy'd for love."

Tis not for gold that I lie here, Nor yet for jewels, know my dear; But it is for that sweet Irish boy, That has caused my sad destiny.

I dont know who wrote it, but the original lyrics of this song were sung to me by my welsh father when i was little. We still laugh about how he sang songs about a woman hanging herself to his young uns, but at the time we were transfixed...

The words (which he learnt while in the army (WWII) are as follows:

A miner came from work one night And found his house without a light He went upstairs to go to bed When a sudden thought came to his head

He went into his daughter's room And found her hanging from a beam He took his knife and cut her down And on her breast these words he found

Oh Lord I wish my child was born And all my troubles they were gone So dig my grave and dig it deep And plant white lilies at my feet

They dug her grave and dug it deep And planted lilies at her feet And now she lies deep underground Where love is lost and never found

So all you maidens bear in mind A soldiers heart is hard to find So if you find one good and true Don't change the old one for a new

Thought I'd post my favorite version of "Love Has Brought Me To Despair," Laws P25. I've come to the conclusion that this and the other versions are based on, or similar to, a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." It's in two parts but the first part (The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire) has these opening stanzas:

Near Woodstock town in Oxfordshire, as I walk'd forth to take the air, To view the fields and meadowa round, methought I heard a mournful sound. [This was included in the first ballad Steve emailed me)

Down by a crystal river side, a gallant Bower I espied, Where a fair Lady made great moan, with many a bitter sigh and groan.

"Alas!" (quoth she), "my Love's unkind; my sighs and tears he will not mind; But he is cruel unto me, which causes all my misery.

"My Father is a worthy Knight, my Mother is a Lady bright; And I their only child and heir: yet Love has brought me to despair. [and also]

The Lady round the meadow run, and gather'd flowers as they sprung; Of every sort she there did pull, until she got her apron full.

"Now there's a flower," she did say, "is named Heart's-ease, night and day; I wish I could that flower find, for to ease my love-sick mind.

"But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain for me to sigh and to complain; There 's nothing that can ease my smart, for his disdain will break my heart."

The green ground served as a bed, and flowers, a pillow for her head; She laid her down, and nothing spoke: alas! for love her heart was broke.

My father he was a rich old jay My mother she was a lady fair And me a-bein' the only heir So love has brought me to despair.

It's when I wore my long silk gown He follered me from town to town But now my apron just won't tie He passes my door and he won't stop in

There is a street in yonders town Where my true love walks up and down He takes another girl on his knee, And tells to her what he won't tell me, He takes another girl on his knee, Oh ain't awful grief to me

There is some flowers I've heard them say, That' would cure false love both night and day And of these flowers I did pull, Until I got my apron full.

I gathered black, I gathered blue, But none of these flowers could I find; That would cure false love Or ease my mind.

It's out of these leaves I made a bed And out of the flowers a pillow for my head It's down she lay and nary word spoke, Until her achin' heart was broke, And in green meadows 'round I thought I heard some doleful sound.

Berzilla Chandler Wallin (1892- 1986) was a member of a family of renowned "Shelton Laurel" ballad singers in Madison County, North Carolina. Berzilla, who was there when Sharp collected ballads in 1916, was the sister of ballad singers Lloyd Chandler and Dellie Chandler Norton, and a cousin of Dillard Chandler.

Here's a tidbit of information about title, The Isle of Cloy (Roud 23272, see question 6 above):

E.J. Moeran collected The Isle of Cloy in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. A.L. Lloyd sang this song in 1956 on his Tradition album The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs:

"It's of a lady in the Isle of Cloy"

It also appears in the Pitts Broadside (above) Rambling Boy:

"My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy,"

In Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths by Roger Dev Renwick he says, Isle of Cloy is "not found in any official British place names [and hence may be a folk name]"

Notice the slight change in The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid-- Madden Collection:

"A squire's daughter near Aclecloy."

to the accurate place name in a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow:

"I'm lately come from Auchnacloy;"

Auchnacloy is an archaic spelling (meaning "field of the stone") for Aughnacloy, County Tyrone in Northern Ireland.

It should be pointed out that "Rambling Boy" (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball) from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799 as well as "Answer to Rambling Boy" and "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790 are completely different ballads from Brisk Young Sailor and all the rest. They have almost nothing in common with Butcher Boy.

Cox said in 1925 that "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid" was one of 4 ballads that make up Butcher Boy- this is also not accurate- the only commonality is the suicide and last stanza.

The "new" ballad "O Willie" that Roger Dev Renwick writes about in his chapter, 'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad, is the old 1700s ballad 'Cruel Father/Rambling Boy,' whose variants were mixed with Butcher Boy variants in collections. Renwick fails to identify the original sources of his "new" ballad and why they were not correctly identified. He does show the differences and identifies some versions in various collections.

It should be pointed out that "Rambling Boy" is not the Pitts broadside of c.1820 (see above) which begins, "I am a wild and rambling boy." The Pitts broadside, a completely different ballad, resembles more closely the "Brisk Young Sailor" ballads and has random generic stanzas from the "Died for Love" ballads.

This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy").

> This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (etc)

It seems to me that all of these songs are mix-and-match combinations of a whole load of floating elements, including some narrative ones (such as the courtship, and the father finding the girl hanging) and others with no narrative aspect (such as "There is a bird ...").

[Here's Deceased Maiden Lover which a Sam Henry's Songs of the People editor lists a version of Died For Love. It's in quatrain form with a two line chorus. I believe it's by lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583?1633)- does anyone know?]

"The Deceased Maiden Lover," to the tune 'Bonny Nell,' attributed to lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583?1633); published in Playford's Ayres and Dialogues, fol. 1652.

Being a pleasant new Court-Song: to an excellent new tune. Or to be sung to the tune of Bonny Nell

AS I went forth one Summers day, To view the Meddowes fresh & gay A pleasant Bower I espide, Standing hard by a River side: And int a Maiden I heard cry, Alas theres none ere lovd like I.

I couched close to heare her mone, With many a sigh and heavie grone, And wisht that I had been the might That might have bred her hearts delight But these were all the words that she Did still repeate, none loves like me.

Then round the Meddowes did she walke Catching each Flower by the stalke, Such as within the Meddowes grew, As Dead-mans-thumb & Hare-bel blew And as she pluckt them, still crid she Alas theres none ere lovd like me.

A Bed therein she made to lie, Of fine greene things that grew fast by, Of Poplers and of Willow leaves, Of Sicamore and flaggy sheaves: And as she pluckt them still crid she, Alas theres none ere loud like mee.

The little Larke-foot, sheed not passe, Nor yet the flouers of Three leavd grasse With Milkmaids Hunny-suckles phrase The Crows-foot, nor the yellow Crayse, And as she pluckt them still cride she, Alas theres none ere lovd like me.

The pretty Daisie which doth show Her love to phoebus bred her woe, Who joyes to see his chearefull face, And mournes when he is not in place. Alacke, alacke, alacke, quoth she Theres none that ever loves like me.

The flowers of the sweetest scent, She bound them round with knotted Bent And as she laid them still in bands, She wept she waild, and wrung her hands Alas, alas, alas, quoth she. Theres none that ever lovd like me.

False man (quoth she) forgive thee heaven As I do with my sinnes forgiven: In blest El[i]zium I shall sleep, when thou with pe[j]urd soule shalt weepe: Who when they lived did like to thee, That lovd there loves as thou dost me.

When shee had fild her apron full Of such sweet flowers as she could cull, The green Leaves servd her for her Bed The Flowers pillowes for her head. then down she lay, nere more did speak alas with love her heart did breake.

FINIS. Printed by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke.

Additional I realized I had confused "Rambling Boy" with "Answer to Rambling Boy earlier in this thread--mea culpa-- both were published in a Scottish chapbook by Robertson in 1799. "Rambling Boy" is of the Brisk Young Sailor branch and is different than "Answer To Rambling Boy." The three versions where the cruel father sends him to sea appear on my web-site as:

B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball) a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790. b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800

"The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an earlier theme of a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." The title is The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire).

In "The Deceased Maiden Lover" a maiden whose heart has been mortally wounded by a "False man" wanders about picking flowers and herbs for her death bed-- she cries "Alas there's none ere lov'd like me!"

When shee had fild her apron full Of such sweet flowers as she could cull, The green Leaves servd her for her Bed The Flowers pillowes for her head.

In The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire the maid performs a similar task:

The Lady round the meadow run, and gather'd flowers as they sprung; Of every sort she there did pull, until she got her apron full.

"Now there's a flower," she did say, "is named Heart's-ease, night and day; I wish I could that flower find, for to ease my love-sick mind.

"But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain for me to sigh and to complain; There 's nothing that can ease my smart, for his disdain will break my heart."

The green ground served as a bed, and flowers, a pillow for her head; She laid her down, and nothing spoke: alas! for love her heart was broke.

Stanzas from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" appear in the "Died For Love" Songs and "Constant Lady" is the basis for "Love Has Brought me to Despair" and a stanza is also found in the related "Sailor Boy."

I'm not sure I see a close connection between "Died For Love" and Deceased Maiden Lover." Anyone?

Hi Richie, Others might find it easier to follow if you clearly separated the different autonomous laments that now have separate Roud numbers. Most scholars now use Roud numbers for clarity. Or you could use my Master Titles which I sent you.

I did warn you it might drive you mad!

I'll come back into the fray when I can get regular access to my computer.

Some streams are not directly related to each other but share common stock from older versions.

You might try to get hold of a different approach from the 1980s, championed by Indiana Uni. A book I've just acquired called ironically 'Narrative Folksong: New Directions. ed. Edwards & Manley, p59, Green Grows the Laurel. Whole book essential reading. Wish I'd had it earlier.

Jon, I'm no expert on tune relatives but it seems to me the English 'Died for Love' Roud 18828, is basically the same tune as the American 'Blue-eyed Boy' Roud 18831. and there is some slight cross-over of text. It has the ring of Vaudeville about it, quite unfolklike.

It is one of my family songs by the way. Both my Uncle and my sister sang versions.

Ok Steve here's an example, "Beam of Oak" Roud 18830 this is according to Traditional Ballad Index which has:

Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)

DESCRIPTION: A farmer's daughter loves a servant man. Her father has him sent to sea. He is killed in battle. His ghost visits the father. The daughter hears about it. She hangs herself. Father finds her hanging. Her note blames the father, who goes mad AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1910 (Lomax, Cowboy Songs) KEYWORDS: battle navy death suicide father lover ghost FOUND IN: Canada(Newf) US(SE,So) REFERENCES (7 citations): Leach-Labrador 15, "Beam of Oak" (1 text, 1 tune) MHenry-Appalachians, pp. 173-174, "I Am A Rambling Rowdy Boy" (1 text, short enough that it might be a "Butcher Boy" version, but the first verse tentatively puts it here) Warner 86, "A Rude and Rambling Boy" (1 text, 1 tune) Owens-2ed, pp. 61-62, "Oh, Willie" (1 text, 1 tune) BrownII 81, "The Butcher Boy" (6 texts plus 5 excerpts and mention of 3 others; although most are clearly Laws P24, Renwick believes the "M" text is "Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)") Darling-NAS, pp. 106-107, "The Rambling Boy" (1 text) {filed here based on the title} ADDITIONAL: Renwick: Roger deV. Renwick, _Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths_, University Press of Mississippi, 2001, pp. 94-95, "Rambling Boy" (1 text, from Lomax's _Cowboy Songs_); also, on pp. 108-109, a broadside, "The Rambling Boy," from Pitts, which he considers to have influenced the song; p. 113, "(William, William, I Love You Well")" (1 text, of another related text) ST LLab015 (Partial) Roud #18830 BROADSIDES: cf. Bodleian, Harding B 25(1597), "The Rambling Boy" ("I an a wild and rambling boy"), J. Pitts (London), 1802-1819 [barely legible]; also Harding B 11(4216), "The Rambling Boy," T. Birt, London, 1833-1841 [This is the related broadside cited by Renwick, not the true "Beam of Oak/Oh Willie" song] CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] (theme) cf. "The Isle of Cloy" (Roud #23272) (location in the "Isle of Cloy," mentioned in the Bodleian "Rambling Boy" broadsides) NOTES: This is not "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] in spite of the suicide by hanging, the father finding the body and the suicide note. Consider the differences: the lover is faithful, the father causes the separation, the lover is killed and his ghost returns, and the suicide note blames the father. - BS Roud used to lump this with "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" [Laws P25], but this is a much more detailed song than that. At most, it might be the inspiration, but even that seems forced. The feeling seems very different -- more like "The Suffolk Miracle" than "The Butcher Boy." In more recent editions, Roud has moved it to #18830, a much more obscure song although related to "The Butcher Boy." It may be that he did this on the basis of Roger deV. Renwick, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths, University Press of Mississippi, 2001. Renwick, pp. 92-115 is an essay, "'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad," which makes a case for this song's independence. Roud's list of versions doesn't correspond precisely with van Renwick's. And the suicide at the end means that fragmentary versions can hardly be classified; readers should surely check both. Renwick considers the family to include not just this song and "The Butcher Boy" but also "Love Has Brought Me to Despair," plus lyric pieces he calls "Deep in Love" and "Died for Love," which are almost beyond classification; "Waly Waly" is probably one of them. The description of this version is based mostly on Leach. Renwick, pp. 100-101, notes the usual differences between this song and "The Butcher Boy": This is told from the man's point of view, it usually opens with him describing himself as some sort of rambler, and it continues with the man's fate after the girl's suicide. Also, the father threatens Willie, and the mother generally does not make an appearance in this song. He also says on p. 107 that it oftan the woman, not the man, who was unfaithful. In broad summary, Renwick calls this a song of Family Opposition to Lovers, whereas "The Butcher Boy" is a song about an unfaithful lover. Thus, in theme, the two are quite different; it is the suicide that pulls them together.- RBW

Out of Roud's 19 listings for 18830 only one of them is actually barely related to "lover sent to sea, dies by cannonball". Of course it doesn't help that Roger deV. Renwick doesn't know the source ballads or Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW).

Rambling Boy is not part of 18830 and only the "Rambling Boy" is "Answer to Rambling Boy" which is a different ballad than all the rambling boy ballads.

So I don't know 3 of the broadsides but by the opening line-- it looks like Roud 18830 is not the same ballad Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW) refers to.

So I'm confused about what is what. Further, "Beam of Oak" should refer to the beam of oak which the maid uses to hag herself. But no- that has nothing to do with the title and also the "Isle of Cloy" is a mishearing of Auchnacloy, which is in Ireland.

There is an excellent version of "Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. That version is not even mentioned.

This may be Traditional Ballad Index's doing- but Roud 18830 makes no sense either.

Sarah Makem sang the "Oh, what a foolish girl was I" line in the fifth verse of "The Butcher Boy" as recorded by Diane Hamilton in 1956 and released on her Musical Traditions anthology "As I Roved Out":

In London city where I did dwell A butcher boy, I loved right well He courted me, and me heart away And then with me, he would not stay.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain I wish I was a maid again A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be 'Til cherries grow on an apple tree.

I wish my baby it way born And smiling on its daddy's knee And I poor girl to be dead and gone And the long green grass growing over me.

She went upstairs to make her bed And calling up her mother said "Get me a chair 'til I sit down A pen and ink 'til I write down."

At every word she dropped a tear And every line cried, "Willie dear. Oh, what a foolish girl was I To be led astray by a butcher boy."

He went upstairs and the door he broke, He found her hanging from a rope. He took his knife and he cut her down And in her pocket, these lines were found.

Dig my grave wide large and deep Put a marble stone at my head and feet And in the middle, a turtle dove, That the world may see I died for love.

Sarah Makem sang The Butcher Boy in two recordings made by Diane Hamilton in 1956. They were included in 2012 on her Musical Traditions anthology As I Roved Out. Another recording made by Paul Carter and Sean O'Boyle in 1967 was published in 2012 on her Topic anthology The Heart Is True (The Voice of the People Series Volume 24). Rod Stradling commented in the first album's booklet:

The Butcher's Boy appears to be derived from at least three separate British broadsides, namely Sheffield Park, The Squire's Daughter (also known as The Cruel Father or The Deceived Maid) and A Brisk Young Sailor, which is also sometimes called There Is an Alehouse in Yonder Town. It's a very well-known ballad, with 275 Round instances, 80 of which are sound recordings, but almost all are from the USA. Ireland has only one other named singer, Andy Cash, and England has only eight entries.

Frank Proffitt sang this song as Morning Fair on his 1962 Folk-Legacy album Traditional Songs and Ballads of Appalachia. It was also released in 1966 as the Topic album North Carolina Songs and Ballads. The booklet commented:

Not often found in this form, this ballad is widely popular in America as The Butcher Boy, perhaps because it was widely printed in the early songsters. Brown points out that it appeared as a stall ballad in both Boston and New York. Frank learned his splendid variant from his aunt, Nancy Prather. The ballad is usually found with the following as the final couplet:

And on my breast place a turtle dove To show the world that I died for love.

Queen Caroline Hughes sang The Butcher Boy in a recording made by Peter Kennedy in her caravan near Blandford, Dorset, in April 1968. It was published in 2012 on her CD of the Topic anthology I'm a Romany Rai (The Voice of the People Series Volume 22).

Lyrics Sarah Makem sings The Butcher Boy In London city where I did dwell A butcher boy, I loved right well He courted me, and me heart away And then with me, he would not stay.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain I wish I was a maid again A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be 'Til cherries grow on an apple tree.

I wish my baby it way born And smiling on its daddy's knee And I poor girl to be dead and gone And the long green grass growing over me.

She went upstairs to make her bed And calling up her mother said "Get me a chair 'til I sit down A pen and ink 'til I write down."

At every word she dropped a tear And every line cried, "Willie dear. Oh, what a foolish girl was I To be led astray by a butcher boy."

He went upstairs and the door he broke, He found her hanging from a rope. He took his knife and he cut her down And in her pocket, these lines were found.

Dig my grave wide large and deep Put a marble stone at my head and feet And in the middle, a turtle dove, That the world may see I died for love.

Frank Proffitt sings Morning Fair As I woke up one morning fair To take a walk all in the air, I thought I heard my true love say, "Oh turn and come my way.

"You told me tales, you told me lies, You courted a girl worth more than I. But gold will fade and silver will fly, My love for you will never die.

"Oh, tell me, Willie, oh tell me please, Do you take her upon your knees And hug and kiss her all so free And tell her things you won't tell me?

"Is it because that I am pool That you turn me far from your door To wander out in a cruel dark world Because you love a rich man's girl?"

"She gave me cake, she gave me wine, I rode out in her carriage fine; She set herself upon my knee And begged and kissed me all so free.

"Her father gives to me his land And also of his daughter's hand; To give it up, a fool I'd be, To trade it all for the love of thee."

She went upstairs, up to her bed; A aching was all in her head; A rope she tied around the sill; They found her hanging, cold and still.

There in her bosom was this note, All with her pen these words she wrote: "Heap up my grave so very high So Willie can see as he rides by."

Queen Caroline Hughes sings The Butcher Boy Oh, at London town where I did dwell, Oh, the butcher boy I loved so deep. He courted me my life away And that same town where I could not stay.

"Oh, mother dear, you do not know What pains and sorrows that I've had to bear. You get me a chair and I'll set down And pen and ink I will write it down."

Now, her father come home late one night. He found his house without of light. Upstairs he goes in his daughter's room, Found her hanging by her beside by a rope.

Oh, with a knife he cut her down And in her left breast that note were found. Oh, what a silly girl she were To hang herself for a butcher boy.

"Now, mother dear, you order my grave, You order it neat and very long. You'll put white lilies now head and foot, And in the middle you placed a dove To show this wide world I died for love."

"Foolish Young Girl" begins as follows, this version sung by Jean Elvin, of Buchan:

A foolish young girl was I, was I, To lend my love to a farmer's boy; A farmer's boy although he be, He spoke broad Scotch when he courted me.

The line "O what a foolish girl was I," is found in many versions of the Butcher Boy- but not as the opening stanza- or in that form. I have now six versions, 2 of which are broadsides and older. Another title for "Foolish Young Girl" is "Irish Boy" which again is used for other songs "Wee Irish Boy" is somewhat similar but a different song.

Hi Richie, Yes, I was responsible for the renumbering in the Roud Index regarding this family of laments, not Roger. The simplest approach here is to follow the autonomous laments and ignore initially the overlaps. The evolution and probable sources, so much simpler with narrative pieces, are here an absolute minefield as they cross over so often. Also much of what has been printed previously is likely to be wrong as it doesn't follow this approach, so only close study of each version will bring anything like an accurate classification.

FWIW I think any English/Irish versions of Butcher Boy have come back from your side of the pond.

Using the list I sent you of the separate Master Titles and Roud Numbers it should be easy enough to place any given version that is not a fragment into one of these. Fragments in the case of these laments are always going to be difficult to place and you may need to use geographical info or tunes to place them. if you are struggling to place a particular text come back to me and I will advise.

You seem particularly interested in Rambling Boy so I'll look at that first. If I remember correctly it is the earliest source of the 3 suicide stanzas which were taken into 'Butcher Boy' and from there into 'Died For Love'.

I emailed you some of the broadsides I don't have that I need- not sure if you have them. I need the Grieg-Duncan- not sure if Will Ye Gang, Love/Rashy Muir will be part or a related ballad. Please send any related broadsides that are not available online- TY

As far as Rambling Boy- I have the Robertson chapbook 1799 with suicide and the Pitts c. 1820 (random stanzas, no suicide)

All the Cruel Father versions have the suicide but they are a different ballad story:

B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790. b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800 d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817. e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875. f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition. g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virgiia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection. h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926 i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932 j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. k. "Black Birds." Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938 l. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952. m. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC, 1966.

Only two of the traditional versions I've found so far tell the ballad story of B.

Hi Richie, Back now. It will be a help to other researchers and me if you use the Roud numbers each time you post something you need info on.

I also wonder if, now the separate songs have been identified, we really should have separate threads. Perhaps it's a bit late for that.

I thought I had sent you info on 'The Queen of Hearts' printed by Wright of Birmingham which has the beginning of a ballad called Bonnie Blue'eyed Lass' derived from a Roxburghe Ballad and the last 6 stanzas of 18830. (See Bodl. Harding B28 (120).

Others I can add to your list are 'Beam of Oak' sung by LaRena Clark, Fowke, p62. 'The Irish Boy' in FSJ31 a fragment at p28. More to follow.

Okay this is the Elizabeth St. Clair piece which may or may not have been redacted by her c1770 in Edinburgh. She was a member of Edinburgh high society and was a friend of Mrs. Cockburn. The ms also contains a few Child ballads some known to Child and some not.

The Irish Boy

O what a foolish girl was I To fall in love with an Irish Boy Who could not speak good English to me Which was the thing that did undo me.

My mother chide me for my kindness She often said I was led in blindness But she may go home and frown in leisure For a sight of my love is all my pleasure.

You go by my door as you do not know me You seem to me as you did not love me I loved you once and I durst not show it Do you the same and let no man know it.

The rose it is red and the violet's blue The honey's sweet love and so art thou Thou art mine love and I am thine I drew thee to be my Valentine.

O meeting's pleasure but parting's sorrow Have the night and away tomorrow But as you leave me so you'll find me I cannot live one hour behind thee.

O if I were on yon high mountain Had gold and money for the counting I could not count it for thinking on thee Have pity on me my dear honey.

Well did he know I could bake and brew Well did he know I could shape and sew Could wash his linnens and dress them fine But now he's gone and left me behind.

My love's away and he's long of coming My heart is broken with thinking on him He's over seas and there he's carried Another woman I fear he's married.

Home her father dear came then Asking for his daughter Jean Up stairs he ran and the door he broke He found her hanging on a rope.

Two long hours after she was dead These lines were found beneath her hand This is the way I must end my life Cause my lodger won't make me his wife.

Certainly a curious hotch-potch. Was she playing around with bits and pieces she knew and adding in her own ideas? I'll leave you for now to sort out where the bits and pieces come from. At least 7 of the 10 come from the general corpus of laments.

I do have The Mansfield Manuscript as a PDF and looked at that one starting on p.4 before I saw that Steve had quoted it. It is pretty incoherent. The change from first person to third person in this sort of song isn't so unusual, but it's disconcerting to have several verses in the girl's voice and then an account of her suicide.

Great version, it's of the Foolish Young Girl branch of which I have 5 or 6 versions- identified by the first stanza and known also as 'Irish Boy' as I posted earlier. They all have different floating verses but many are the same. Above is a link to Willie Mathieson's version online- which I can't understand.

The date is important too since that takes it back another 100 years or so-

Jeannie learned this song from other girls at cairdings and at the gutting work on the fishing stations. It was well known in Aberdeenshire with a variety of titles such as I wish, I wish, The Student Boy, Died for Love, etc.. In the USA it appeared on Broadsheets with the title The Butcher Boy.

Good one Lighter- there's an obscure broadside called Irish Boy's Lamentation the also has "O Home, O home" but that's the reason it's obscure.

Here's one and the earliest extant broadside of "The Queen of Hearts" by Pitts (Printer) Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street, 7 Dials, London. The broadside is identified by the 2nd stanza. It's ending (stanzas 7 and 8) is similar to, or a rewrite of B, The Cruel Father, where her lover is sent to sea and killed by a cannonball. Some of the intermediate stanzas as pointed out by Steve are found in Elizabeth St. Clair's "Irish Boy."

The Queen of Hearts- broadside by Pitts (Printer) of 7 Dials, London about 1820.

1. O my poor heart my poor heart is breaking For a false young man I'm quite mistaken He is gone to Ireland long time to tarry, Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow, He is here today and gone tomorrow Young men are plenty sweethearts few But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in I gaze all around him When he goes out my poor heart goes with him To meet is a pleasure to part is a sorrow, He is here today and gone tomorrow.

4. I wish I was upon yonder mountain Where gold and silver I could have for counting I could not count it for thinking upon him He is nothing to me what makes me love him

5. I love my father I love my mother, I love my sister and likewise my brother I love my friends and relations too, I will forsake them all and follow you

6. O Billy O Billy I love you well, I love you better than tongue can tell I love you dearly and dare not show it You do the same and no one shall know it

7. But when her father came to hear That he was courting his daughter dear He had him pressed and sent to sea To keep him from her sweet company

8. He had not been there years passing three On board the ship called the Victory It was his misfortune there for to fall And killed he was by cannon ball.

The other Queen of Hearts broadside about 12 years later has two changes, one might be important- the ship is now called the "Royal Victory" (instead of "Victory') and a ship by that name was operating in the late 1600s. If anyone know what ship that could be please post as it might help date the original.

1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking For a false young man or I am mistaken He is gone to Ireland long time to tary, Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow, He is here today and gone to-morrow, Young men are plenty sweethearts few But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him, When he goes out my poor heart goes with him, To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow, He is here to-day and gone to-morow.

4. I wish I was on yonder mountain Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing I could not count it for thinking on him He is not kind to me, what makes me love him?

5. I love my father and likewise my mother, I love my sister and also my brother I love my friends and relations too, I will forsake them all, and follow you.

6. My father will give me both houses and land If I'll consent to be at his command, At his command I never will be, I will forsake them all, and go with thee.

7. O Billy O Billy I love thee well, I love you better than tongue can tell, I love thee dearly, and dare not show it, You do the same, and no one shall know it.

8. But when her father came to hear, That he was a courting his daughter dear, He had him press'd and sent to sea, To keep him from her sweet company.

9. He had not been there passing years three, On board the ship called the Royal victory It was his misfortune there for to fall And killed he was by a cannon ball.

Baring Gould's version is attributed to two different sources- not exactly sure which one is right;

1) In his notebook it's "sung by a nanny on a train journey from Tavistock to Yelverton" dated 1897.

2) It was printed in 1905 in the new and revised (i.e. 3rd) edition of Songs of the West (now out of print). It is reprinted here by courtesy of Messrs. Curwen and Sons Ltd. According to a note it was sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894.

Maybe this is common knowledge: In the last stanza of Wright broadside "Queen of Hearts" line 2 appears these words, "On board the ship called the Royal victory." "Royal victory" is likely a corruption since the ship in the other broadsides is referred to as the "Victory" which is likely the HMS Victory, a 104-gun first-rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy, ordered in 1758, laid down in 1759 and launched in 1765. She is best known as Lord Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.

I did find evidence of a ship called "Royal Victory" in 1692 however it seems that HMS Victory is the ship.

There is nothing wrong with "leave" in that context, but it is subjunctive, a verb mood which is slowly dying out in English. We can speculate about which the navvy from whom B-G collected that version actually sang.

Interesting point- I copied it (didn't insert sic) and wondered about that too. I also noticed that Baring Gould's punctuation "to-day" and "to-morrow" appear exactly the same in broadside versions and if I remember correctly Baring Gould himself doesn't not punctuate these words this way. We know he edited and rewrote and we know he had a print copy so. . .

I've started putting UK versions on my site, I want to thank Steve for sending me many of the copies I have put on so far.

It seems to first appear as a stanza in the common broadside 'Brisk Young Sailor' text which is where all of the other stanzas in Caroline's text can be found. It may have been inspired by the 9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation.

He doesn't even mention Sheffield Park or Brisk Young Sailor. In my opinion, altho I'm just learning these ballads/song, only Tavern (which is a 1891 composition and not a folk song) and Butcher Boy are closely related.

I just looked at "Three Worms." It's like the modern version (Pitts) of Sheffield Park (the older versions don't have the stanzas from Qxfordshire Tragedy) on steroids!!! Of course it's mixed with Brisk Young Sailor too.

In stanza 10 she gets revenge- too funny!!!

10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold I met her false lover, and him I told: "Come and walk after your heart's delight; She will walk with you both day and night!

Happy haunting!

Richie

THERE WAS THREE WORMS ON YONDER HILL. [A BRISK YOUNG SAILOR.] SUNG BY MR. BARTLETT, Noted by the late H. E. D. Hammond. AT WIMBORNE, DORSET, IN 1905.

1. There was three worms on yonder hill, They neither could not hear nor see; I wish I'd been but one of them When first I gained my liberty. [Repeat last two lines.]

2 Then a brisk young lad came a-courting me, He stole away my liberty; He stole it away with a free goodwill, He've a-got it now, and he'll keep it still.

3 Oh, for once I wore my apron-strings low My love followed me through frost and snow, But now they're almost up to my chin My love pass by and say nothing.

4 Now there is an ale-house in this town, Where my false love go and sit himself down And takes strange girls all on his knee- And don't you think that's a grief to me ? [Or Because they have more gold than me.]

5 So gold will waste and beauty pass And she will come like me at last. That mortal man when he served me so When I was down where the daisies grow.

6 Now there is a flower, I heard them say, Would ease my heart both night and day. I wish to God that flower I could find That would ease my heart and my troubling mind.

7 Then out in the mead the poor girl run To call those flowers fast as they sprung; 'Twas some she picked, some she pulled, Till at length she gained her apron full.

8 On those sweet flowers she made her bed, A stony pillow for her head; Then down she lay and never spoke, And now her tender heart is broke.

9 Now she is dead and her corpse is cold I met her false-love, and him I told "A bad misfortune I come to tell." "I'm glad," said he, "she have done so well."

10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold I met her false lover, and him I told: "Come and walk after your heart's delight; She will walk with you both day and night!

11 So dig her a grave long, wide and deep, And strow it over with flowers sweet; Lay on her breast a turtle-dove, That folks may see that she died for love.

Richie, When MacColl wrote those notes he probably hadn't a decent grasp of the broadside traditon. When he uses the title 'Tavern in the Town' I would guess he's actually referring to 'Brisk Young Sailor' where the verse occurs. This is quite reasonable for someone mostly acquainted with oral versions. The 1880s/1891 student song is properly titled 'There is a tavern in the Town' from the first line.

Need some help with two versions from Vaughan Williams. Both are titled "There Is An Alehouse" one is from 1912 sung by an unknown gypsy from Herefordshire and the other is sung by Mrs. Dann in 1907. Both have music although hard to read ;)

I do have four versions with music from Vaughan Williams, here's one:

A Brisk Young Farmer- sung by Thomas Bowes of Westerdale, Yorkshire on 23 July, 1904. Usual stanzas from "Bold Young Farmer" both collected by Vaughan Williams.

A brisk young farmer courted me, He stole away my liberty, He stole my heart with my free good will, I must confess I love him still.

There is an inn, in this same town, Where my love goes and sits him down, And takes another girl on his knee, He tells her what he doesn't tell me.

Its grief to me, I'll tell you for why, Because she has more gold than I, But in needy time her gold shall fly, And she shall be as poor as I.

When first I wore my apron low, My love followed me thro' frost and snow, But now my apron's up to my chin, My love passes by and he says nothing.

There is a bird on yonder tree, They say it's blind and cannot see; I wish it had been the same with me, Before I joined his company.

Go dig my grave both long, wide and deep, Place a marble stone at my head and feet, And in the middle a turtle dove, To show the wide world I died for love.

I also need versions of "Over Yonder's Hill" as sung by Freda Black or Amy Birch. I do have the version from Amy's daughter but Jean learned it from another source.

Baring-Gould studied this ballad and all his versions begin "Brisk Young Miner." So far all of the UK versions I've seen do not have this title. Any thoughts as to how this could be. I've got three versions from his leading informants David Parsons, Same Fone, and John Woodrich. As author of "Book of Werewolves" Baring-Gould could have added more spice but his re-write is a bit tame (no fangs); here's his A version:

A. The Brisk Young Miner- sung by John Woodrich probably Sept., 1896 or early as 1889. Woodrich was a blacksmith from Wollacot Moor, Thrushleton [sic], Devon.

1. A brisk young miner courted me He stole away my liberty, My liberty with free good will. For all his faults I love him still.

2. There is a tavern in our town, Where my false lover will sit him down, Another maiden is on his knee He never, never, now thinks on me.

3. A grief to me, I'll tell you why, She has no more of show than I. The show will waste, & beauty blast, And poor she'll be as me at last

4. Once I could wear my apron low He followed me through frost & snow. But now 'tis risen to touch my chin, My love passed by, but said nothing.

5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born Sat smiling on its daddy's arm, And I myself - cut short my span, I would be free from that young man.

6. O dig my grave both wide & deep, Put tombstones at my head & feet And carve there on a turtledove, To signify that I died of love.

In stanza two he "Americanized it" a bit showing his knowledge of published versions. Aside from that only 5 and 6 should touches of tampering, the most blatant being 5:

And I myself - cut short my span, I would be free from that young man.

Here's a version Steve sent me from The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection- Volume 8- page 501 by Patrick N. Shuldham-Shaw, ‎Emily B. Lyle, published 2002, version C. This is a variant of Brisk Young Sailor with the Foolish Young Girl or, Irish Boy stanza.

Georgina (b. about 1868, d. 1958) was the daughter of John Reid (c. 1844 Elgin) and Elizabeth Murray (c. 1838 Aberdour) who taught Georgina her songs. The family (with seven children) were living at Cottage Ford, Federate, New Deer, Aberdeen in 1881. so I've dated this c. 1882. She later married Alexander Ironside b. 1864 did he not belong to any of the New Deer Ironsides (at least not for a couple of generations back) who was the son of Alexander Ironside and Mary Still. These Ironsides were from Fyvie.

The Sailor Boy- sung by Miss Georgina Reid (b. 1868) of Collyford, New Deer. Her married name was Mrs. Alexander Ironside and she lived at Woodside, Carmousie, Turiff. Georgina learned her songs from her parents.

1. Oh what a foolish young girl was I, To lay my love on a sailor boy A sailor boy although that he be, He spoke brood Scotch when he courted me.

2. My love he wears a smiling face And on his jacket he wears gold lace he thinks himself of a higher degree but oh, if he knew it, it's a grief to me

3. It's a grief to me and I'll tell you why, Because she has more gold than I, But her gold will fade and her silver decay, She'll be left a poor girl as well as I.

4. My love he goes to yonder town, In yonder inn it's him you'll see, He takes another girl on his knee, And tells he what he's told to me.

5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born And placed on some kind nurse's knee. And I myself in the old churchyard With the green grass growing over me.

Er.....what hidden meaning? Some of the 17thc pieces might have had some but by the end of the 18th everything left was pretty straightforward and simple. 'Deep in Love' has some symbolism but we haven't got there yet.

The English Dialect Society in their Publications, Volume 41 1896, gave this report:

"When apples grow on orange trees." A variant of this common phrase concludes an old song which I do not remember to have seen in any printed collection. Here and there it is not unlike?though elsewhere manifestly inferior to? 'Waly, Waly, love be bonny,' in Percy's Reliques, and the Orpheus Caledonius.

i. There is a house in yonder town, Where my love goes and sits him down; He takes a strange girl on his knee, O don't you think that's grief to me?

ii. 0 grief, O grief, I'll tell you why, Because she's got more gold than I. But her gold will waste, and her beauty blast; Poor girl, she'll come like me at last.

iii. For when my apron-strings were low, He follow'd me thro' frost and snow; But now they are up to my chin, He passes by and says nothing (sic)[1].

iv. 'I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain, I wish I was a maid again; A maid again I ne'er shall be, Till an apple grows on an orange tree.'

My questions are where did "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" originate (I know there are various other analogies with different fruit- need to have the "A maid again" line) and when was it attached to this ballad?

Hi Richie I have spent the last 3 days pondering this exact same question. The stanza does not appear in any of the many extant printed versions, but it occurs in roughly half of the many oral versions in the British Isles, with perhaps something of a northern bias. The earliest version I can find at the moment was collected by Kidson in the 1880s in North Yorkshire. I would say the likelihood is that there was an influential broadside version that contained this verse which hasn't turned up yet.

It is part of the collection of commonplaces we collectively refer to as 'impossibilities'. These come in 2 forms, both quite ancient; one being the somewhat humorous nonsense type such as 'Martin said to his man/Who's the fool now?' where the emphasis is on entertainment; and the other type is those that occur in dialogue laments. Often these come in the form of the maid asking 'When shall we be married?' and this is met with a whole catalogue of things like 'when fishes fly and the seas run dry' as responses. One type of fruit growing on another tree is quite common.

Richie, Just glancing through American versions of Butcher Boy and although as you'd expect it rarely occurs there, it has attached itself to 3 versions I have. It occurs in a Missouri version from 1941 in Emrich's Folklore on the American Land, p526, and in a Massachusettes version in Thompson, p387, and in Gardner and Chickering, p117 from Michigan.

Richie, In Christie's TBA there is a version of the scarce ballad 'The Chain of Love/As through the Groves' which has 2 stanzas from Rambling Boy. I wish I were a little bird' and 'I wish i were a little fly'. These are very likely placed there by Christie as he was a noted mix and matcher.

Richie, You keep asking about the Rashie Moor variants. This forms part of an equally complex family of laments with as many 17thc antecedents as the above family but there is very little overlap between the 2 families. The family includes such titles as: Down in the Meadows Waly Waly Deep in Love Fair and Tender Ladies Love is Pleasing Arthur's Seat The Rashie Muir The Water is Wide Peggy Gordon I'm often drunk and seldom sober.

Obviously the bulk of these is Scottish. I could send you some samples but I think you've enough on your plate with the current family of laments.

Rashie Moor variants are part of the Waly/Waly" songs and come from different broadsides including: "A New Love Song" "Maid's Complaint" "Picking Lilies" Here one of about a dozen I've looked at. Occassionally a stanza will float over- but not usually.

"The Unfortunate Swain" From: The Merry Songster. Being a collection of songs, Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London, [1770?], ESTC T39283, available at ECCO.

Down in a Meadow both fair and gay, Plucking a Flowers the other day, Plucking a Flower both red and blue, I little thought what Love could do.

Where Love's planted there it grow, It buds and blows much like any Rose; And has so sweet and pleasant smell, No Flower on Earth can it excell.

Must I be bound and she be free? Must I love one that loves not me? Why should I act such a childish Part To love a Girl that will break my Heart.

There's thousand thousands in room, My true love carries the highest Bloom, Sure she is some chosen one, I will have her, or I'll have none.

I spy'd a Ship sailing on the Deep, She sail'd as deep as she could swim; But not so deep as in Love I am, I care not whether I sink or swim.

I set my Back against an oak, I thought it had been a Tree; But first it bent and then it broke, So did my false Love to me.

I put my Hand into a Bush, Thinking the sweetest Rose to find, l prick'd my Finger to the Bone, And left the sweetest Rose behind.

If Roses are such prickly Flowers, They should be gather'd while they're green, And he that loves an unkind Lover, I'm sure he strives against the stream.

When my love is dead and at her rest, I'll think of her whom I love best I'll wrap her up in Linnen strong, And think on her when she's dead and gone.

I do have a few versions of Rashie Moor titled "Will ye Gang Love" that have more "Died in love" stanzas but they appear to be modern.

I believe the Grieg versions with "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" date mid-1800s at least. Having an "orange tree" in an ancient Scottish ballad is a bit bizarre.

Lighter-- Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky sang the words to "Butcher's Boy" with the melody of Careless Love. Careless love as a folk song was radically changed by WC Handy and other in the late 1800s and became a jazz standard.

These are the Appalachian lyrics my female singer sang in the early 1990s:

This version seems to have been taken from Airman's Song Book, p126 by C Ward Jackson and Leighton Lucas. The title is the same and all of the rest apart from the last stanza which has a few verbal differences.

The note at the top says, 'Sung by 38 and other squadrons in India and elsewhere in the early 30s to the tune of 'In Jersey City'. All of this backs up my theory that the song was brought over from America by troops in WWI and is based on Butcher Boy.

Warren Fahey: Mr Cavanagh contacted me after I had made an appeal in the Australian Maritime Museum magazine 'Ahoy!' and sent me this song which he had been singing ever since he was a young lad in the Navy. He said he "came home from the club, after reading my article 'Where are all the maritime Songs?' and sat down at the kitchen table until he could recall all the words.

The Maiden's Prayer? maritime version

She was a maiden young and fair And came from high society He was a mallot brass and bold Who took this girls virginity

Her father came home late one night And found the house without a light He went upstairs to his daughter's room And found her hanging from a beam He took his knife and cut her down And on her breast this note he found

My love was for a sailor boy Who sailed across the big blue sea I often wrote and thought of him He never wrote or thought of me

Oh Dad I cannot stand the pain To bear this child without a name So dig my grave and dig it deep And place white lilies at my feet

They dug her grave and dug it deep And placed white lilies at her feet And on her breast they placed a dove To show that she had died for love

Now all you maidens bear in mind A sailor's love is hard to find But when you find one good and true Don't change the old one for the new.

Kennedy calls this an army song generally known as "Died for Love" which is a version of "In Jersey City" a song he says in turn is probably based on "Sheffield Park." He doesn't call "In Jersey City" the normal name "Butcher Boy." Kennedy adds that there are stanzas from "Tavern in the Town." Please excuse my notoriously bad typing.

1. A soldier young and fair was she, Who courted in society, This soldier was so bold and gay, He led a little girl astray.

2. O when her apron-strings were low, He courted her in rain and snow; But when those string refused to meet, He passed her by upon the street.

3. Her father came back late one night, And found the house without a light; He went upstairs to go to bed, When a sudden thought entered his head.

4. He rushed into his daughter's room, And found her hanging from a beam; He took a knife and cut her down, And on her breast these words he found.

5. I wish my baby had been born, Before my troubles had begun, So dig my grave and dig it deep, And put white lilies at my feet.

6. They dug her grave and dig it deep, They put white lilies at her feet. And on her breast they laid a dove, To signify she died of love.

7. Now all you soldiers bear in mind, A true girl's love is hard to find, But if you find one that is true, Don't change an old love for the new.

Sheffield Park was originally independent and in 1820 stanzas of "Constant Lady" AKA "Near Woodstock" were added to the Pitts broadside. The same stanzas have been found added to versions of "Died for Love" but they may have come from Pitts' "Sheffield park" or from the 1686 "Constant Lady" broadside. Either way the stanzas don't appear this army version I call, "Maiden's Prayer' (not the Bob Wills song- same title).

I can't explain the slight verbal differences in the last verse but the version on the website is verbatim the version in Airman's Song Book. The only explanation I can think of is someone lifted it from the book and decided to alter something in case anyone pleaded breach of copyright. The Airman's Song Book was published in 1967. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

From what I tell -- there are quite a few versions of 'A Maiden's Prayer' Roud 18828 and it continues to be sung in a similar form today. Most are missing the first stanza and as Steve said tend to be fragmentary. Gwilym Davies sent me two from the 70s and 80s.

Another early version is "The Soldier's Love" sung by Fred Cottenham of Kent whose father learned from a World War I serviceman so that would take it back to c. 1920.

This is a nice version of Foolish Young Girl which is fairly old- dating back to the early 1900s. It was corrected by an MS sent by Cathlin Macaulay at School of Scottish Studies. I've changed only two words of the MS much of it was the same. [MS has Ugie's Bank (4th stanza, I had Logie's Bank- and at the end MS has o' and I have altho')

Willie Mathieson was born in 1879 in Ellon, Aberdeenshire, and worked as a farmservant on various farms in Banffshire. An amateur folksong collector in his own right, he amassed an enormous corpus of songs over his lifetime, which is now deposited in manuscript form in the School of Scottish Studies. He died in 1958.

Summary - In this song of lost love the young girl mourns for Jamie and bewails her foolishness in falling in love with an Irish boy, though he spoke broad Scots when he courted her. He promised love, fidelity and a home, but now he is in a tavern courting someone else who has more money, whom he will leave when money and beauty runs out. She says that she will die for love and asks for a turtle dove to be placed on her grave.

The Foolish Young Girl- sung by Willie Mathieson of Ellon, Aberdeenshire. Recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1952. This variant includes stanzas from three different songs. Text proofed with MS provided by Cathlin Macaulay and Caroline Milligan of the School of Scottish Studies.

1. I love you Jamie, I love you well, I love you better than tongue can tell, I love you better than you love me, My darlin' Jamie, ye're dear to me.

2. What a foolish young girl was I, I, I, To fall in love with an Irish boy An Irish boy tho' gin he be He spake braw[1] Scotch when he courted me.

3. How oft my Jamie when in your arms[2] You said I filled your heart with charms, And when you gained my youthful heart You said death only would us part.

4. How oft on Logie's banks we've met In Strichen Toon we've wandered late; How oft my Jamie I've heard you tell It's in this house that we will dwell.

5. There is a tavern in this toon[3], My lover gangs there and sets him doon, He take this strange girlie on his knee Because she's got more gold than me. [But] her gold will waste and her beauty fade, And very soon she'll be left like me.

6. The meeting's a pleasure but parting's a grief[4], An inconstant lover is worse than a thief. A thief he will rob you take all that you have, An inconstant young man can you lay you in your grave.

7. You'll dig my grave baith long and wide, . . . And in the middle a turtle dove, That you may know I died for love[5].

8. What a foolish [young] girl am I, I, I, To fall in love with an Irish boy An Irish boy tho' gin he be, He spake braw Scotch when he courted me.

1. braid 2. stanzas 3 and 4 transcribed from MS 3. town/down 4. from Inconstant Lover 5. this stanza is incomplete and singer's melody and text are confused-- the last line was given awkwardly.

Apparently Apron of Flowers is an Irish version of some antiquity. Does anyone have access to the similar version by Ulster poet, Samuel Ferguson, in 1856?

This text is from Sam Henry Collection: Sam Henry's Songs of the People, edited by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann, 1990. This opens with a stanza from the broadside "Nelly's Constancy" which also has the third verse. The last two stanzas are from The Constant Lady/Near Woodstock broadside.

The Apron of Flowers- Sam Henry recovered it from Mrs. H. Dinsmore of Coleraine on December 26, 1936.

I loved a young man, I loved his well, I loved him better than tongue can tell, I loved him better than he loved me, For he did not care for my companie.

There is an ale house in this town Where he goes in, and there sits down; And he takes a strange girl on his knee And tells her what he once told me.

But I will tell you the reason why, Because he had more gold than I But the gold will melt and the silver fly, And perhaps he'll be as poor as I.

But there's a flower grows in this place And some does call it, the heart's ease; And if I could but this flower find I would ease my heart and my troubled mind.

Into the green meadows there I'll go And watch the flowers as they grow And every flower I will pull, Until I have my apron full.

The info on Apron of Flowers being written by Ulster poet, Samuel Ferguson, in 1856 is unverified and appears on a website. And info about this would help.

A similar text is Over yonder's Hill on Devon Tradition (12TS349, 1979) and reissued on TSCD661 'My Father is the King of the Gypsies.' This version was learned by Amy Birch from her mother, Dehlia Crocker, who kept a notebook of her songs. It was also recorded by Birch's daughter Jean Orchard who apparently used her grandmother's text. There are only a handful of differences between Jean and Amy's versions.

Over Yonder's Hill - sung by Amy Birch; recorded by Sam Richards, Paul Wilson and Tish Stubbs in the singer's trailer at Exebridge, Devon, November 1976.

Over yonder's hill there is an old house, Where my true love goes and sits himself down, Takes another fresh girl on his knee, Now don't you think that's a grief to me?

A grief a grief I'll tell you for why, Because she has more gold than I, Gold may glitter and silver will shine, And all my sorrows will fade in time.

I wish the Lord my baby was born, And sit smiling in his own daddy's arms, And me myself wrapped up in cold clay, Then all my sorrows would fade away.

There is a flower I have heard people say, They grow by night and it fades by day, Now if that flower I could find, It would cure my heart and ease my mind.

So across the fields that poor girl she ran, Gathering flowers just as they sprang, Some she picked and some she pulled, Until she gathered her apron full.

She takes them home and she makes her bed, She puts a snow white pillow in under her head, She lies down and she closed her eyes, Closed her eyes, no more for to rise.