SHE / HE /THEY and HER/HIS/THEIR - a question of style?

English translation: My three cents

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09:36 Aug 4, 2004

English to English translations [Non-PRO]Art/Literary - Linguistics / grammar/style

English term or phrase:SHE / HE /THEY and HER/HIS/THEIR - a question of style?

What do you prefer?

Examples with "her/his/their":
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(1) Everybody wants to have HIS own car. (What about women?)
(2) Everybody wants to have HIS/HER own car. (too clumsy?)
(3) Everybody wants to have THEIR own car. (ungrammatical?)

Examples with "she/he/they":
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(1) Everybody should have what HE thinks best.
(2) Everybody should have what HE OR SHE thinks best.
(3) Everybody should have what HE/SHE thinks best.
(4) Everybody should have what SHE/HE thinks best.
(5) Everybody should have whst S/HE thinks best.
(6) Everybody should have what THEY think best.

Explanation:(1) Everybody wants to have HIS own car.
- Correct but outdated. Sounds rather sexist and is liable to get you lynched by a phalanx of militant feminists. And rightly so.

(2) Everybody wants to have HIS/HER own car. (too clumsy?)
I use this if it is not possible to reword to "they" - it's OK if it doesn't crop up too often within the same text. Otherwise, you trip over it all the time.

(3) Everybody wants to have THEIR own car. (ungrammatical?)
You would normally say this - simply to avoid the sexism and clumsiness of (1) and (2) - but would not write it.

The solution: if possible, make singular into plurals - i.e. "We are serving customers and their needs" rather than "We are serving the customer and his/her/its (!) needs"

Kevin, if something is "ungrammatical", it is wrong. Can a word, phrase etc. be correct when used in spoken English, whereas it is wrong in writing? It's either correct or it is simply wrong. techtransDE's example is a case in point: "Gestern KOMME ich zum Bahnhof ..." is wrong - in written German AND in spoken German.

Last comment from my side: The keyword is "contemporary". And yes, I am aware that English grammar is constantly evolving, even more so than e.g. German. Maybe we should continue this topic on the ProZ.com forums. It does seem to be an important question.

It does happen: somebody asks 'is this sentence right or wrong?', only one answer is proposed and it gets 25 agrees. That's what I meant when I said points go to whoever answers first. If it was a survey, we wouldn't have that problem.

techtransDE, I found the sentence "Everybody must do *their* best." in a dictionary (Dictionary of Contemporary Engl.), so it cannot be 100 per cent ungrammatical. However, I am aware of the fact that the use of "their" in this case is rather controversial. Perhaps it was entirely wrong, say, fifty years ago, but today's users of English may no longer object to it. It's not Latin - it's English, a language that is constantly changing.

Javier, I don't care who answers first. Points will go to the person who has given the most helpful answer to my question. However, I agree when you say that this "the-winner-takes-it-all" system is not really fair. It happens quite frequently that you get two or three equally helpful answers.

Many people have suggested to have a survey as a different option to kudoz or forums, with no points awarded. It would be ideal for questions like this. All answers are probably somehow right and somehow worng, and in cases where there is a general...

We already had this discussion not very long ago. The result: they/their is ungrammatical when used in this way. Use he/she or reformulate the sentence to avoid the problem entirely, e.g. by saying "most people want to have their own car".

Answers

Explanation:(1) Everybody wants to have HIS own car.
- Correct but outdated. Sounds rather sexist and is liable to get you lynched by a phalanx of militant feminists. And rightly so.

(2) Everybody wants to have HIS/HER own car. (too clumsy?)
I use this if it is not possible to reword to "they" - it's OK if it doesn't crop up too often within the same text. Otherwise, you trip over it all the time.

(3) Everybody wants to have THEIR own car. (ungrammatical?)
You would normally say this - simply to avoid the sexism and clumsiness of (1) and (2) - but would not write it.

The solution: if possible, make singular into plurals - i.e. "We are serving customers and their needs" rather than "We are serving the customer and his/her/its (!) needs"

Peter Linton: I agree with everything Ian says - except that I think "Everybody wants THEIR" is such a good solution to the HIS/HER problem that it is now acceptable in writing, at least in anything but very formal writing. It is becoming an honorary singular pronoun.

Explanation:This is a chapter heading in Elaine Campbell's book "ESL Resource Book for Engineers and Scientists". She begins by reviewing grammatical gender vs. natural gender and then offers the most common ways to "write around" the problem:
1. plural nouns & pronouns ("all managers" and "their reports")
2. eliminate pronoun ("each manager" and "a report")
3. compound pronouns ("each manager" and "his or her...")
4. alternated pronouns (one time "his", the next time "her")

Old-school (I include myself) would say that using "their" as a singular, neutral form is not acceptable in formal writing; in spoken English it's becoming quite common (I believe).

I forgot to mention that oldtimers would also say that the masculine pronouns _are_ gender-neutral when so used. I, myself, try to avoid the problem unless doing so would require standing on my head. :-)

Regarding comments above, you must remember that languages--German and English, at least--have written forms and spoken forms and that there is a difference between prescriptive (rules) and descriptive (reality) grammars. Those working with words, esp. someone else\'s, sit in the middle.

Last comment (I have to finally work): It is an interesting topic, isn\'t it? Your example, \"Gestern komme ich...\" is one example of \"incorrectness\"--an error which only a non-native speaker would typically make. Maybe you\'ll continue this in the forum? Also, take a look at the Collins Cobuild website (including their description of the Bank of English): http://www.cobuild.collins.co.uk/

xxxIanW: With you especially on your last point, Kevin, and I'm still in my 20's. I remember on my university application form, they simply used "she" everywhere. Talk about "robbing Peter to pay Paul". (Or Paula?!?)

Explanation:There was a time when women would use male pen names, so that people would even read what they had written. In some cultures this may still be true. In those cultures where it is not, however, I teach my students the following rule:

If you are a male writer use male pronouns. If you are a female writer use female pronouns. Only switch when it becomes necessary to refer to the opposite sex; otherwise, assume that everyone has some sort of sexual identity, and if they cannot accept yours, then do not be concerned about it, because you probably are not writing on their behalf anyway.