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'Less' is probably better than 'too much,' but 'less is more' just makes it sound like the subtler something is, the better it is, the end, no questions asked. Are stories always overwrought and melodramatic if the characters ever show any strong emotion? Do people never give strong displays of emotion in real life? I guess that Lancer's death would have been more powerful if instead of raging during his demise he just frowned and said "This sucks bro," or that the little boy in episode 2 that was brutally murdered by Caster should have (Rather than scream and wailed) sighed and calmly said "This is rather unpleasant old chap, could you kindly desist?"

Funny you mention that Caster scene, many of Caster's stuff work better when it's left to the imagination. For example the thing that Caster summoned that butchered the kid or what Caster and Ryunosuke did with the kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaya

Well, ufotable put it where the it is in the novel so there's no complain about that.

I'm personally fine with the location, however just because it's that same location in the novel doesn't mean it should be adapted that way.

Again it was an example of overacting. You have to draw the line somewhere in regards to the character's mental state. Yes that was the most straining thing he's ever done emotionally however the dialogue was completely unnecessary and a way to remind viewers of what happened in the previous episode. It was the writers' way of saying, "Hey guys remember Shirley and remember him not being able to pull the trigger? Well here's a blaring reminder just for you if you forgot in the past episode. Oh and we need to make it perfectly clear that he's not shooting down the plane for no reason otherwise people might think he's a villain." This is one of those cases where you let the visuals do the work instead of having dialogue, that's one of the strengths of any visual medium compared to books.

I would rather see subtle body language instead of him giving a speech declaring his feelings.

I don't totally disagree, but I think the tenor of the entire flashback interlude has been inconsistent. A lot of that does have to do with the transition from novel to anime, as you say. However, as they've clearly committed to adapting this series faithfully to the point of being word-for-word in many sections, it's not surprising they kept the dialogue, too.

And for whoever posted above (as well as anyone else who was confused), yes this was straight from the opening interlude of volume 4. It is not from Heart of Freaks, which was essentially a side story showing him during his life with Natalia.

Anyhow, I thought the emotion was stronger in this half than the first, and all of it worked better for me than in the novel.

Edit: As for placement, they did actually move some events around. Kirei hadn't killed Tokiomi yet in the novels. However, I think this all makes a stronger thematic comparison between the two of them, with both having their fathers and father figures killed.

I don't know. I trust in Urobuchi Gen as the writer behind this, so if he thought that understanding Kiritsugu character was important enough to have the flashback placed just before the last spurt for the series then it must actually have some significance.

Well, ufotable put it where the it is in the novel so there's no complain about that.

For the episode, I think my signature said it best. I guess with his backstory done I can finally complete it.

Spoiler for Kiritsugu's description:

"This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.
The dream of that man was pure.
His wish was for everyone in this world to be happy; that was all that he asked for.
It is a childish ideal that all young boys grow attached to at least once, one that they abandon once they grow accustomed to the mercilessness of reality.
Any happiness requires a sacrifice, something all children learn when they become adults.
But, that man was different.
Maybe he was just the most foolish of all. Maybe he was broken somewhere. Or maybe, he might have been of the kind we call 'Saints', entrusted with God's will. One that common people cannot understand.
He knew that for any existence in this world, the only two alternatives are sacrifice, or salvation...
After understanding that, he would never be able to empty the scale plates...
From that day on, he set his mind to work on being the one to tip the scale.
To abate the grief in this world, there was no other, more efficient way.
To save even one life on one side, he had to forsake one life on the other side.
That is, to let the majority of people survive, he had to kill a minority of people.
Therefore, rather than saving people for the sake of saving them, he excelled at the art of killing people.
Again and again, he kept painting his hands the color of blood, but the man never flinched.
Never questioning the righteousness of his acts, nor ever doubting his goal, he forced himself to only faultlessly tip the scale.
Never ever misjudging the value of a life.
With no regard to the humility of one's existence, and with no regard to its age, all lives were weighed evenly.
With no discrimination, the man saved lives, and, with no discrimination, he killed.
But unfortunately, he realized that too late.
To value everything in equal fairness, that would be the same as not loving anyone uniquely.
Had he carved that inviolable rule into his spirit sooner, he would have attained salvation.
Freezing his young heart into necrosis, achieving his self as a measuring machine with neither blood nor tears, he kept on leading a life of sorting those that were to die, and those that were to live. There probably wasn't any suffering for him.
But that man was wrong.
Anyone's delighted smile would fill his chest with pride, and anyone's wailing voice would shake his heart.
Anger was added to his resentment, and he became full of regrets as his tears of loneliness longed for hands reaching out to him.
Even though he was pursuing an ideal beyond reason of the world of men — he too, was human.
How many times was the man punished for that contradiction?
He did know friendship. He did know love.
Even when putting that one beloved life, and the countless number of perfect strangers, on the left and right of the scale—
He definitely never made a mistake.
More than loving someone, to judge that life equally to that of the others, he had to value it impartially, and impartially forfeit it.
Even when he was with someone precious to him, he would always seem to be mourning.
And now, the man is being inflicted with the greatest punishment. "

From what I've read from the comments in the forum, the book also goes extensively into personal monologue and stuff. I've been given the impression that we were suppose to care a lot more about Kiritsugu prior to this arc. His first emotional outburst came as a surprise to a lot of people, myself included. While the story is character driven, not a single person is given the protagonist title, and does a good job spreading the points of views across the board. I think he essentially takes up the mantle with these two episodes, where he was basically just a central figure prior to this point. I feel as though the anime is basically telling me: hey, here's your guy going into the last arc. The second OP and ED makes more sense in this regard, changing from the participants of the holy grail war down to mostly Kiritsugu.

... but I feel that it has come too late.

I agree with the sentiment that Kitsurugi's story should have been told before now, and now that I've thought about it, I feel like it would have been a very nice OVA or promo or something to promote the series before it airs. Kotomine Kirei's story has been a lot more prevalent, and we've been privy to a considerable amount of his thoughts before kiritsugu.

The arc itself is pretty good, but it just feels rather out of place. I feel like it's a lost in transition from different mediums.

I don't think Kiritsugu's cry at the end is overdone at all. Imagine going through the pain of being forced to kill the one you love the most twice. I am glad that they show the emotional side of him. It contrasts well with the cold and almost emotionless man that we have seen for so many episodes. You probably won't see him showing such emotion again in future episodes.

It also highlights how his ideal of saving people is destroying him. A normal human would value those he personally cares for much higher than rest of the human race. But Kiritsugu, because of his ideal, forces himself to put his father and Natalia on the scale to weigh against all people equally. It means he has two scales in his mind, one that is natural and one that he artificially maintains for making the "right" decision, and he always picks the decision that is good for everyone else and bad for him. Eventually the imbalance will break him down mentally.

Agreed.

Also if you know about psychology - the way he handled the situation was pretty normal to me. Talking to Shirly - seemed normal as it brought up a main event in his life - that he'll never forget. The stress he had when he was a kid and regressing back would be normal. Someone that you are that emotionally connected to - even after death you'll still talk to them in private (even if you know they aren't there). Natalie is probably another person he'll think about from that point forward and possible have a thought about " did you see that kill.heh"

No one is open about talking to people that are dead. however it happens all the time - its a way to cope or say things you'll never get to say to those that have passed. Psychologists will role play with clients and say "now if i'm "so and so" (who died) what would you want to say to me".

I think if Kiritsugu was walking down the street talking to dead people - yeah he would need to end up in crazy persons home.

I thought it was well done. A hero with a backstory of chaos. No one said he was perfect and it's those elements that make a character more interesting.

For Kiritsugu, he sure does live a messed up life anyway. He was trying to be heroic, but he ended up being like Natalia anyway. He seems to be cold and detached as he grew up, still looking for a way to end all wars.

Now that's the real deal.. the proper backstory for Kiritsugu, the dialogue that he having with Natali was so heartbreaking considering the outcome.

And I don't mind the placing for this flashback arc like many does, considering this might be the last moment for "change of pace" before the climax part of the series.

I'd expecting the next complaint wave is about there is no room to breath with all of the battle, death, irony and twist for the last 7 episode. Hell even in these flashback episode, the mood not getting any brighter at all lol.

From what I've read from the comments in the forum, the book also goes extensively into personal monologue and stuff. I've been given the impression that we were suppose to care a lot more about Kiritsugu prior to this arc. His first emotional outburst came as a surprise to a lot of people, myself included. While the story is character driven, not a single person is given the protagonist title, and does a good job spreading the points of views across the board. I think he essentially takes up the mantle with these two episodes, where he was basically just a central figure prior to this point. I feel as though the anime is basically telling me: hey, here's your guy going into the last arc. The second OP and ED makes more sense in this regard, changing from the participants of the holy grail war down to mostly Kitsurugi.

I actually looked up the first few chapters of the manga adaption the other night and with Kiritsugu and Kirei narrating their parts they were suddenly both a lot more sympathetic and I could see what the novel readers are getting at. I think it doesn't help that both of them have been characters that internalize a lot and that there's a good-sized cast to also focus on, even seeing just a couple of chapters from Kiritsugu's point of view made me sympathize with him a lot more, in a sense more than these two flashback episodes have done.

I don't know. I trust in Urobuchi Gen as the writer behind this, so if he thought that understanding Kiritsugu character was important enough to have the flashback placed just before the last spurt for the series then it must actually have some significance.

Spoiler:

It reflects Urobuchi's nihilist view, as well as giving nod to the "Mind of Steel" Dead End in the visual novel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I'm pretty sure Kiritsugu was making excuses to himself, bringing up Sherry since it was his mistake to not kill her there and then that caused that tragedy on the island. We get to see earlier in the episode that he already linked this case with what happened with last weeks episode, so I don't think it was a bad way IMO.

Also, by the time he broke down and started crying, he was more of cursing himself for what what he had done ...

Pretty much this.

He sincerely believes he was doing the right thing, but it did not make it any less painful for him.

Also if you know about psychology - the way he handled the situation was pretty normal to me. Talking to Shirly - seemed normal as it brought up a main event in his life - that he'll never forget. The stress he had when he was a kid and regressing back would be normal. Someone that you are that emotionally connected to - even after death you'll still talk to them in private (even if you know they aren't there). Natalie is probably another person he'll think about from that point forward and possible have a thought about " did you see that kill.heh"

No one is open about talking to people that are dead. however it happens all the time - its a way to cope or say things you'll never get to say to those that have passed. Psychologists will role play with clients and say "now if i'm "so and so" (who died) what would you want to say to me".

I think if Kiritsugu was walking down the street talking to dead people - yeah he would need to end up in crazy persons home.

I thought it was well done. A hero with a backstory of chaos. No one said he was perfect and it's those elements that make a character more interesting.

QFT. I like having a protagonist like Kiritsugu. You don't see characters like him much in anime, at least from my xp.

Yeah, what people are saying about it being a little unclear for non-novel readers to tell that he was a main character makes sense. It's really hard to come at the anime without keeping the books in mind, if you've read them, since they influence your whole views of the characters.

And the anime does set up to be more of an ensemble piece. I think it's always been clear that the rivalry/animosity between Kirei and Kiritsugu would be a central point of the series, but beyond that, the opening parts didn't really tell me that Kiritsugu specifically would be anything like a "main character."

I'll be curious to see how people feel about this interlude after the entire series is over. I think it would be very difficult to finish it without including this material, but maybe other people will feel differently.

Like the last episode, I thought the editing was done really nicely, in terms of what you see at various point, referenced against the dialogue and such. But yeah, it's really tough for the anime to characterize both him and Kirei, as someone above posted. Both are so very internalizing; that's not to say they're the same--I think it's pretty clear that Kirei is a "blank" that's slowly being filled (with evil, ha ha), while Kiritsugu does have emotions, but suppresses them in favor of the bigger goal.

That said, as an anime viewer, there have been some episodes that were particularly Kiritsugu/Kirei-centric where it was just so uninvolving watching two essentially blank-faced characters operating totally on their own. Sometimes, I perversely think that Archer just wanted to see if he could find someone even more boring than Tokiomi, and then make him interesting... So in the end, these episodes helped to flesh out Kiritsugu somewhat, at least.

It was really worth it to watch these two episodes. They told enough about Kiritsugu. The guy is very lonely and that really sucks. Kiritsugu lost his friend and family. Kirei lost his wife. They both have some things in common.
I like Iri and Saber, but I don't see Kiristugu as part of the team. He is just so isolated.
Anyway I'm looking forward to see when Kirei meets Kiristugu.

That said, as an anime viewer, there have been some episodes that were particularly Kiritsugu/Kirei-centric where it was just so uninvolving watching two essentially blank-faced characters operating totally on their own. Sometimes, I perversely think that Archer just wanted to see if he could find someone even more boring than Tokiomi, and then make him interesting... So in the end, these episodes helped to flesh out Kiritsugu somewhat, at least.

I see what you mean there. But as pre-quel of F/SN, the storytelling in F/Z has to assume the readers have interest in the two characters. They are the main focus of the F/Z series.

And IMO this is the right place to put the flashback in - right after Kiritsugu demonstrates how ruthlessly efficient he is at killing his enemies. The flashback is meant to show us how Kiritsugu became the twisted being that he is. And you can't do that without first showing how twisted he is.