K-cup, many shuls have lions on poroches or even as staues on top of aron hakodesh. Lions are definitely an avoda zara and one is prohibited to daven towards such images and forms…I guess there is a heter, so that heter applies to Chabd too, no?

k-cup no pictures on misrach wall, in front of the mispallel, as it says in shulchan aruch.
daas yochid. cheasidus DOES NOT SAY THAT ITS BETTER NOT TO SLEEP IN THE SUKKA< YOU ARE WRONG> learn the sicha inside

I’m not at all saying it is a halachic problem, i have Davened in places with giant rebbe pictures many times. It is unusual, and may lead people to think Chabad davens to rebbe pictures. It may even lead certain meshichist to think they’re davening to rebbe pictures.

“cheasidus DOES NOT SAY THAT ITS BETTER NOT TO SLEEP IN THE SUKKA< YOU ARE WRONG>”

So, Chabad Chassidus says it’s worse not to sleep in the sukkah? If we “lean the sichah” inside we will see that the Rebbe actually told everyone to follow the halachah and sleep in the sukkah, but 100% of Lubavitch randomly decided not to anyway?

Spare us. I know your response will be something to the tune of “it never explicitly says it’s ‘better’ to sleep in the house. It just says that it’s mutar not to sleep in the sukkah by the heter of the S”A. And, the sukkah is a holy place where you wouldn’t want to lose control of your body. Therefore, since it’s totally mutar to sleep in the house, why should one take the ‘risk’ of sleeping in the sukkah?”
In other words, it’s better not to sleep in the sukkah. You and us both can read what every other Lubavitcher has said here and has said to us in real life. You guys hold it’s better not to sleep in the sukkah, stop lying.

I want to retract my earlier post comparing not sleeping in a sukkah to not eating cholent. The comparison is faulty and not worthy of discussion. I was short of time and wanted to come up with an explanation quickly, and I did, but it was a totally inadequate and wrong explanation.

What I should have written is what Neville wrote: There is actually a substantial heter to not sleep in the sukkah that many non-Chabad people in northeast America rely upon. The problem is that Chabad will never say they are relying on this heter. They instead created their own logic and now refer to not sleeping in the sukkah as a chumrah. They institutionalized the heter to the point that those who could otherwise sleep in the sukkah just fine don’t.”

Not sure my posts went through as I was having computer troubles, so I’ll try to be short and summarise.

1. My earlier comparison of not sleeping in a sukkah and not eating cholent was stupid! Delete that. The correct reply was said by Neville that lubavich has turned the heter of not sleeping in a sukkah into a show of how great ovdei Hashem they are.

2. Knaidlach et al (I had mistakenly included BBO in this group), we’ve been through all this before. The sicha about not sleeping in a sukkah is based on warped lomdus which we don’t accept, and no amount of telling us what a great tzaddik your rebbe was will change that.

3. Some of us here, myself included, do not have a high opinion of your rebbe at all and we think that although he must have been charismatic and highly intelligent he was warped and he had delusions of Messianic grandeur. Don’t try telling us that there are hordes of people who “know” he was a tzaddik and that we are in the tiny minority, as we are not. We have virtually all of the Litvish/yeshivish world on our side, as well as a number of large chassidic groups.

Sorry if my earlier posts do go through and this is just a short rehash.

It’s interesting that he asks all the obvious questions, but doesn’t seem to answer them (although he tries).

So I’m left with two big kashyas: 1) How could the kedusha of the sukkah itself cause tza’ar which patters from the mitzvah. 2) How do all Chabad chassidim not sleep in the sukkah when the reality is that they’re not mitztaer, they’re not mitztaer that they’re not “on the level to be mitztaer”, and even if they were, they could do that in the sukkah.

@rso. where did you get the difference between kum vaaaseh and shev val taaseh? If a group of jews decided to rely on the rishonei ashkenaz (which i honestly never heard of until now) to not put on tefillin you would be ok? True, you said that you understand my objection and that you are protesting from a different angle, but i’m pretty sure i remember you saying that have no objection to the actual minhag, just that they explain it in a krum way, as i’m pretty sure you said that there were people who you think were tzadikkim that did stuff that didn’t coincide one hundred percent with halacha. What gives?

@daasyochid. How could the kedushah of sukkah itself cause tza’ar which patturs from the mitzvah”. The mitzvah is teishvu.
“How do ALL chabad chassidim not sleep in the sukkah when the reality is that they are not mitztaer, they’re not mitztaer that they are not mitztaer, and even if they were, they could do that in the sukka”. Good question. I think a good test to see if they are mitztaer (at any level) is to offer to set up a nice bed in their sukkah in perfect weather and see if they would sleep there or opt to sleep in their house.

And then again, if they are raised to appreciate the mitzvah the way their Rebbe wanted them to appreciate the mitzvah, and they are not mitztaer that they are not mitztaer (at any level whatsoever), then i would assume there is a good chance that they wouldnt be matriach themselves to sleep in the sukkah just like any other random brooklyn dude doesn”t.

BBO, I see kum va’asei different to shev v’al taaseh. Maybe I’m wrong there, but it’s only relevant to that one post which I retracted.

And as to tefillin, if people wouldn’t wear tefillin because they don’t have a guf noki or because they can’t be meisiach daas, then not only would I not denigrate them but I would say they are doing what halachah says to do. Sleeping outside a sukkah if one is able to sleep in it is against halachah.

Haha this is funny to watch I myself am in a lubavitch Mesivta in a big chassidish and litvish area and I meet with litvaks and and other chassidim and they always tell me how they love lubavitch, love the education system how it keeps bochurim involved on inyonei ruchni and everyone here is bashing us. Listen haters, lubavitch is taking over because people see the truth. We do litvaks and chassidim become lubavitch all the time but it’s never the opposite? People want truth and they don’t find it anywhere else.

meirs: “We [I assume he means Why] do litvaks and chassidim become lubavitch all the time but it’s never the opposite?”

Even assuming that what you say is true, it’s for the same reason that more people become non-religious than become religious. We live in an olam hasheker and, unlike the yeter horo, the truth rarely wins.

Funny, since CS said a few posts back, that without a p’sak from a Lubavitcher Rabbi, she won’t accept the Rebbe as Moshiach. Since the
Rebbe’s declaration, the world had a YERIDA, PILEI P’LAIM
To quote him, “We need Moshiach NOW!!!!”

Lechaim123, sorry that you were expecting a better answer, I can only answer what I believe to be the truth.

And I don’t know how you deduced that I was saying that there won’t be any frum people left. To be honest, there aren’t that many now either, compared to the Jewish world population and lehavdil the rest of the world.

@coffee addict: In short, רבה said about himself that he is a בינוני and it’s known that he never stopped learning, to the point that the malach hamoves didnt have any control over him – so doesn’t seem right to say that he had 50/50 so there has to be more to it

For a more detailed answer and sources you can look in the first page of tanya perek 1.

I’m not going to fault you for not reading all 40 pages of this thread but I addressed your question (I thought it was said in the past that it was אביי) that the Gemara says you should view yourself as a בנוני so that you do more mitzvos and not do aveiros

@coffee addict
As I said if you want a more detailed answer (including to the question u just mentiond) you will have to open a tanya – thats the test if ur actually intreasted or trying to learn on one foot

Search online “tanya perek 1” and lessons in tanya with English explanations should be one of the results (with all the sources) and learn the first perek. or ask any of your friends that LEARNED tanya (not on this thread).

This thread looks like a fun place where people get “excited” over what ppl that never opened a safer say (both sides of the argument).

” I did simple math: if “more people become non-religious than become religious.” Then eventually there will be no more religious ppl.”
You left people being born out of the equation. The frum population can grow even with a greater number of OTD’s than BT’s as long as the birth-rate exceeds the differential. The proof is in the pudding.

RSo’s point (which I agree with) is that it shouldn’t be surprising that people would switch to a group that allows them to daven late, not sleep in the sukkah, drink excessively, and call themselves “chossids.” That’s not a proof of emes that’s just a proof of easiness.

@NCB i was looking at it from a theoretical point, that according to you there is a possibility for religious people to die out.
Obviously practically that won’t happen but the fact is not because of what he said that they’re going at a faster rate.

Next
“that people would switch to a group that allows them to daven late, not sleep in the sukkah, drink excessively, and call themselves “chossids.” That’s not a proof of emes that’s just a proof of easiness”
— I would agree with you if that would be the only things that chabad does, (which this entire thread at least for the last 3 pages is focusing on these few points, besides for when chabadshlucha wakes up every few days).

But it looks like that’s the only things you know of chabad so I won’t argue but if you want truth find out a bit more.

Lechaim: “But it looks like that’s the only things you know of chabad so I won’t argue but if you want truth find out a bit more.”

We’ve been dealing with this claim that you made for 41 pages now, and I for one am quite sick of it. We’ve answered all the charges leveled against us, and as far as we’re concerned the lubavichers on the forum have not satisfactorily answered ours.

So please, instead of just rehashing old stuff go back to your Mesivta and learn there. I don’t know why a young bochur is reading this stuff anyways.

“i was looking at it from a theoretical point, that according to you there is a possibility for religious people to die out.”
And I still contend that you didn’t understand his original statement. Even if the number of people freing out per year were 100 times the incoming baal teshuva rate, that does not necessarily mean the frum would be doomed to die out (even “in theory”). The rates of people entering and exiting by-choice has little to do with the growth rate of the charedi population.

” I would agree with you if that would be the only things that chabad does…”
We aren’t saying that, but those chumros are not as Chabad-unique as you probably think. There are plenty of groups that have Chabad’s chumros and then some (eg. virtually all other Chassidim) without the kulos. If it were just the awesomeness of Chabad’s observance drawing people in, why wouldn’t they go for a stricter chassidus?

“We’ve answered all the charges leveled against us, and as far as we’re concerned the lubavichers on the forum have not satisfactorily answered ours.”
I mentiond this too – ask someone you know your questions, not here.
I specificly didn’t continue with the simple answer that the Baal hatanya says (nothing deep you can open a gemora that the Baal hatanya refrences and see For yourself) because ppl here dont want answers they’re just looking to hate so if you have a question abt something ask someone you respect that learned.

NEXT
“And I still contend that you didn’t understand his original statement. Even if the number of people freing out per year were 100 times the incoming baal teshuva rate, that does not necessarily mean the frum would be doomed to die out (even “in theory”). ”
I still hold of the theory I said – without looking at the birth rate (because right now we prob. have a faster birth rate but that can always change and) if ppl frieing out is 100 time more then BT then eventually the frum would die out C”V

NEXT
As I said you found a few things that a few chabad ppl do (which some of those things have no source) and you based your opinion of the entire chabad based on them.

NEXt
Even other chassidic groups dont become litvaks (nothing to do with chabad) rather others are becoming chassidic.

Nothing personal no one is trying to make anyone chabad over here – every person has a purpose in life.

Lechaim – you seem to be uninformed about the actual back and forth here. One thing you missed was a discussion about how every time we had a question on something we were called haters and bashers. If you have to accuse someone of hate for defending their mesorah than this isn’t the place for you.

“I still hold of the theory I said – without looking at the birth rate”
That’s makes 0 sense. The majority of growth comes from the birth rate. Why on earth would you construct a theory that ignores it? OK, yes, is 0 Jews were being born then we would cease to exist. Congratulations, your theory holds up.

“As I said you found a few things that a few chabad ppl do”
The things referenced are categorically Chabad minhagim: not sleeping in the sukkah, eating before davening, davening late, etc. They are not neo-chassidishe shticks we’re complaining about; read the thread.

“Even other chassidic groups dont become litvaks (nothing to do with chabad) rather others are becoming chassidic.”
First of all, that has nothing to do with anything. Second of all, it’s not true at all. Have you never met an ex-chassid/heimishe person who sends their sons to Litvish yeshiva? Those families are quite possibly the majority of the frum NYC population. Not that I’m claiming them as a victory for team-Lita or something or rather. I would rather people stick to their mesoras. The point is, your statement is false.

Look at the diff in the style of writing between non political and yourself and you’ll see what I meant by haters
Already from the first page the style writing cud have been with a bit more derech eretz for the main topic on hand even though u totally disagree – (on a side note why you getting so worked up by someone you think is in mesivta and never went through shas and yorah deah)

I know abt the back and forth that keep not getting answered to your satisfaction and as I wrote before (not abt the discussion you mentiond) – ask all your questions to a person you know face to face, not here.

Btw how did the topic of this thread change from the sugya of moshiach to the other topics ? (I prob. Missed that somewhere)

Next
If someone was trying to change your way of thinking (which most ppl here are not) then I agree with you for hating.

We’re not asking you to defend your mesorah – we have two totally diff mesorah (E.G. are we you gonna tell you not to touch your beard (although even your great rabbis didn’t)? No! You say have your own mesorah).
we believe in the moshiach concept and other halachos which you might not understand from this thread (NOT BRINGING THAT SUBJECT UP), you disagree? Fine. Enjoy life have a good day! Or ask someone you know IF you are interested.
Not sure why this thread was brought up in the first place if ppl here have no interest.

“That’s makes 0 sense. The majority of growth comes from the birth rate. Why on earth would you construct a theory that ignores it? OK, yes, is 0 Jews were being born then we would cease to exist. Congratulations, your theory holds up”

What if birth rate changes and the frum slow down?
Your looking at it from a practical view and I’m looking at it from a theroletical point

“Not sure why this thread was brought up in the first place if ppl here have no interest.”
It was started by a Lubavitcher who wanted to convince us of Lubavitch shittos. So, that’s why we’ve responded the way we have.

“What if birth rate changes and the frum slow down?”
RSo’s comment was that more people frei out than join the frum world. Your response was that this would mean, with mathematical certainty, that the frum world would vanish, not that it would vanish on the condition that people also stopped having babies. Theoretically, yes, the OTD rate could exceed the birth rate if numbers changed around. Are you claiming that’s how you interpreted RSo’s comment? I don’t think that’s how he meant it, but I could actually understand where you’re coming from if you thought he meant “more people leaving than coming in” included births in the “coming in” part.

@NCB
I agree that it shouldn’t have been brought up here where ppl are Not intreasted
but to be dan lkaf zchus CS thought ppl are interested as you can see from CS first paragraph in her first post she just wanted to clarify questions that people have.
– i hope

From CS first post:
“I find that people completely misunderstand when Lubavitchers say things like the above, and panic, or happily relegate us as kofrim, depending on their education.