THEY LEAVE and the business can't find anyone to work, and the business goes under.

Except that they won't leave, because all of the businesses in the low-wage sectors are paying the same and there is no other work available.

We have been down this road before. .

It seems like we are bound to repeat the mistakes of the last century, only to correct them in a generation or two. . Future generations will
instill new social safety-nets to replace the ones that we have broken down due to our greed and arrogance.

Later, those that thrived under those protections will themselves become selfish and arrogant ensuring the repetition of the cycle.

It's a good thing we don't teach history in the schools like we used to. .

Originally posted by grover
Regardless of whether there should or shouldn't be a minimum wage the harsh reality is this... the hardest, most grubby and often most dangerous work
pays the least. This has been true of any job I have ever worked... I don't care if it was a dishwasher position, guard, ditch digger or what not...
the nastier the work the less it paid.

The next jobs up a paid a little more and the next a little more than that until you get to the jobs where no one sweats, risks life or limb and often
do nothing except make money from money... and they get paid the most.

Something is wrong with this picture.

"make money from money" .. If you think this is "easy" by any means.. quite frankly, you have never done it. Having worked for a corporation that
gave me a cubical, a swirly chair, and a computer to stare at all day.. I always thought I liked manual labor better.. at least then it felt like you
where doing something. The hours where far longer, the pay in relation to what I was doing I felt I was under paid, the people I had to deal with
made me dream of just going home and having a glass of whiskey to forget it.

And as far as "making money from money" .. stressful like you wouldn't believe, when you watch as your money vanishes and there is little you can
do about it. Stressing over all the research you have done and whether it's a bad choice, a good choice, will it pay off, will I loose a portion of
my money, will I hit it big? .. again, incredibly long hours.. but since you don't punch a clock, it doesn't really matter..

People who work as McDonalds, WalMart, sweep floors, clean rooms.... They get paid based on what it takes to do the task.. a GED (if that) and showing
up on time. They deserve the lowest ranking pay.. because they do the lowest ranking jobs..

I don't believe corporations should pay people crap simply because they can, most corporations actually pay above minimum wages anyways. A Happy
employee is a Good employee.

MOST minimum wage earners are actually employees of small businesses, where minimum wage hikes almost always result in layoffs because it eats away at
the minuscule bottom line.

Does Government care? No. It's all PR to appease those who don't understand economics.. It gets votes.

To answer your question "what is the livable minimum wage" I would say on the East Coast it's $8.50/hr and on the west coast $11/hr. As a minimum
wage, to get a basic apartment and feed your self, and perhaps a kid or two. Not the American Dream.. but it is what it is.

Minimum wage, is it a good thing? Here in the UK I'm not so sure. So many companies have gone to the wall recently since we introduced a few
years ago the minimum wage. Point is there are plenty of people who are more than willing to work for a lesser wage. I saw this entrepreneur, he was a
British Asian and he was employing people paying them half the minimum wage. Now this was in textiles, an industry decimated by Chinese imports and
this guy was employing people more than happy to work for his wages and guess what? The BBC sent an undercover reporter to try and get a job, filmed
it secretly and then showed it on a documentary and the authorities came down on the company. A company successfully competing with cheap imports and
this happens. No wonder us Brits are in a mess.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
MOST minimum wage earners are actually employees of small businesses, where minimum wage hikes almost always result in layoffs because it eats away at
the minuscule bottom line.

The tax code favors large corporations (political donors), that combined with high insurance rates are decimating small business, not the employees.
It's a lot easier when crafting political debate, to set the little guys (small businesses and the workforce) against each other. . Meanwhile the
mammoth insurance industry continues to profit and big business enjoys an unequal tax protection with little questions asked.

"It's all the fault of the lazy poor."

To answer your question "what is the livable minimum wage" I would say on the East Coast it's $8.50/hr and on the west coast $11/hr. As a
minimum wage, to get a basic apartment and feed your self, and perhaps a kid or two. Not the American Dream.. but it is what it is.

An honest answer. How stable will our society be if we have masses with income at 1/2 to 1/3 of that pay rate? On the west coast, wages start at
$8/hr. (not a living wage). If we eliminate that, are you saying employers will pay more?!!

Yes, tax codes favor large corporations. They also favor the poor. It's the middle class and the small businesses that shoulder the burden of
supporting our Socialist state.

If we eliminate that, are you saying employers will pay more?!!

No, in fact, wages would probably decrease over time, but then again, so would inflation. Mandated wage increases are a direct way to force
inflation, inflation which is an indirect tax on the Middle Class.

In no society founded on Free Market principles has government intrusion lead to a more stable and sound economy. While the principles of the economy
can appear to be free moving on it's own whim, it is in fact ever more controlled by the consolidated State. Once this consolidation is begun, it
cannot be ceased.. where the Government decides what wages the lower income shall earn, it soon will decide the wages the top earners shall earn.
Then not only will the State dictate how much they will take from our pay check, but essentially dictate how much the pay check is to begin with.

I remember working for a guy who had a good outlook,"You pay peanuts,you get monkeys" The reason the minimum wage was set is because they were
taking advantage of workers,overworking,no OT etc,this goes back to early 50's,I was an employer and do you think I want to see my crew show up
looking like the cat drug them in,driving broken down cars,No I wanted to feel proud they were paid a decent wage and could support their
familys,others would rather drive around in 150,000 cars,going to the river in expensive motor home,so yes I feel to some extant some overseeing is
justified,can't trust everyone

You can thank the government...and the federal reserve.....for drastically increases the size of government...and instead of hitting us with taxes
which of course is very unpopular...they just inflate the currency..taxing all of us...poor, rich, and everything in between.

Everyone blames business....i know they have a share in the blame obviously....but pretending the government isn't in cahoots...even NOW...with big
business then you are in denial.

The federal reserve cannot account for 9 trillion dollars. Who do you think is going to reap the benefits of that?

NOT US.

What about NAFTA as well? Jobs still flooding out of the country...not a damn thing is being done about it.

Originally posted by Fremd
I am of the personal opinion that the min. wage is destroying businesses in America.

I know plenty of people who's work ethic and/or abilities are not worth $5.15 an hour, let alone $7.25 an hour.

There is a fundamental concept of running a business when it comes to paying your employee's:

You will treat employee compensation with a competative nature just like any other aspect of your business. You want your staff to be competant and
skilled, so you may offer a little more than the guy down the street to anyone who has the credentials you are looking for.

For the nitwit who takes 17 bathroom breaks that are 25 minutes long, who comes back late from lunch, and does not do a good job, you don't offer
that person much money, because they aren't worth it.

Typically you'd fire them, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Min. wage is a bad bad bad thing.
It forces smaller businesses to offer less positions for pay...because instead of paying 10 low-skilled employee's $5.15 an hour, now you can only
afford to pay 6 low-skilled employee's $8.00 an hour....leaving 4 people unemployed.

For those in the work place who make a bad wage, there's only one way to fix it. Be good at what you do.
If you're a burger flipper, be a great one with a good attitude.

Businesses reward their upstanding employee's.

Why?

Because they want to keep them.

Businesses should not be forced to reward degenerate worthless employee's.

It'd be no different than the government forcing you to tip the waitress who never brought you a single refill and dropped your food all over
your lap without even giving you a towel to clean up with.

Yeah, but if a business doesn't make enough money to pay good wages to many people, it deserves to fail. A weak business is crap! A society should
not be forced to reward degenerate, worthless companies.

If there was no minimum wage, there would be countless people working for less than what they do now.

thats just flat out not true.

A business would offer competitive wages to lure in and retain worthwhile employee's.

SOME employers may offer "competitive" rates of pay, but eventually, with inflation, everyone would go back to working for less then what is needed
just to get by.
The minimum wage in the UK was brought into action (1999) for the simple fact that employer's were not paying there staff enough - effectively making
them work longer hour's in order to "top up" there earnings. Also, the conservative party and bussiness's were against the minimum wage. I bet
they still are. What a suprise.

Minimum wage, is it a good thing? Here in the UK I'm not so sure. So many companies have gone to the wall recently since we introduced a few
years ago the minimum wage. Point is there are plenty of people who are more than willing to work for a lesser wage. I saw this entrepreneur, he was a
British Asian and he was employing people paying them half the minimum wage. Now this was in textiles, an industry decimated by Chinese imports and
this guy was employing people more than happy to work for his wages and guess what? The BBC sent an undercover reporter to try and get a job, filmed
it secretly and then showed it on a documentary and the authorities came down on the company. A company successfully competing with cheap imports and
this happens. No wonder us Brits are in a mess.

If you are reffering to that asian man in manchester who was employing illegal immigrants with no permit to work in the uk i pity you for not seeing
the obvious.

firstly: In employing people who are NOT allowed to work in the uk, and paying them at a substandard rate the employer is taking money from OUR
econemy and giving it to people who do not PAY TAX. therefore, they money does not go back into the system.

secondly: The immigrents were being made to work 7 days a week. no sick pay. the working conditions were unsafe and unhealthy (Box's next to people
operating machinery. staff forced to eat at there machine)

Thirdly: Competeing with china is somewhat impossible because they have a VERY large workforce who know no better then sweatshops.

The fact that you think what this man did was "smart" is ridiculous. No one should have to work in a sweatshop. simple. Greed is what is killing the
uk and western countries, not the workforce.

Primark sell cheap clothes, you know why? because they have SLAVES making them. Nike? Same stuff. I dont buy from these manufacturer's because i
beleive that slave labour shouldnt exist when we have the technology to feed, cloth and give everyone in this world a decent way of life. Capitalism
is killing us.

Hell my former employer was so cheap that if they ever came out with scratch and sniff plates he would have been the first on to invest.

He also threatened to sell wait staff positions like a hair styling salon sells chairs.

He would drag winos in off the street and pay them with a bottle of well liquor so they would wash dishes for the night.

I was also required to hire illegal aliens at sub minimum wages.

He wouldn't pay overtime either... he would pay you what you would have earned at your average wage under the table and tell you he was doing you a
favor since you were making more because you didn't have to pay taxes on it.

I despised that bastard and referred to him to his face as a smaller than life character... the only reason I stayed with him for 10 years was because
I could treat him with utter contempt and he would put up with it because he was afraid if he got rid of me he would have to pay someone far more than
he did me. Also I ate and drank for free... plus I could do the job blind folded and cross eyed.

He would have paid someone Chinese wages if he could have gotten someone to accept it.

The IRS finally shut him down because it turned out he had been collecting taxes from our wages and not paying them...

It is that type of low life SOB that minimum wages protect low income workers from.

I do find it pretty bad how low minimum wage is....I mean to buy a burrito at Chipotle costs like $8, so you worked a full hour just do you could go
out to eat.

I've been feeling sorta bad lately when I go out to like Target or where ever and I realize that all the workers are probably getting paid around
minimum wage. I just think, don't these people contribute to the success of the company equally? Aren't all parts needed, from the low to the high?
People can say what they want, but that computer technician that makes 60k would seem pretty useless to you if you didn't have a guy coming to your
door to pick up your crap every week.

Well said from someone who obviously has never worked on a road construction site.

You go dig a ditch for 12 hours in 100 degree heat while wearing jeans, t- shirt and a hard hat and then come back and tell us again how anybody can
do it.

I wager that you might last a day, but you wouldn't go back the next day.

You bringing up CEOs has nothing to do with min wage. It is in place so that franchises don't take advantage of people.

If there wasn't a min wage people that build your roads or stock your shelves would be making considerably less then they do now. Imagine you are
working for min wage and tomorrow they do away with it.

We are in hard economic times and your boss sees a chance to make a little more. He gives you the option of working for 3 dollars an hour or find a
differant job.

You choose to find another job, but soon find out that everyone is lowering their wages.

That is what minimum wage is for.

I'll now wait for your reply stating that I don't know you and that you worked construction before and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Fremd
I am of the personal opinion that the min. wage is destroying businesses in America.

What is your opinion on things such as unfair trade practices and trade barriers by other countries? Do you know that a given Ford model sold in Japan
would cost 25 000 USD but that Japanese government raises a import duty of 100% thus forcing dealerships to sell it for around 50 000 USD? How is
American car manufacturers supposed to compete against foreign brands when that is the case? What does minimum wages matter under such circumstances?

I know plenty of people who's work ethic and/or abilities are not worth $5.15 an hour, let alone $7.25 an hour.

Well i think that if you hire someone who can not generate that volume of income your business plan is useless and your attempting entry into a market
that is already over old. Perhaps we could reflect on why after 12 years of formal schooling people are still worth less than 5 USD per hour when we
know that is not sufficient to do much other than make a modest living?

There is a fundamental concept of running a business when it comes to paying your employee's:

You will treat employee compensation with a competitive nature just like any other aspect of your business.

Agreed and under most circumstances this is the one cost of business that employers all over the world can and always have conspired to undermine it
in the capitalistic profit interest. The fundamental problem is not minimum wages but the balance of power, until the average worker of the world has
sufficient education and economic power to defend his space in the global economy we will need protection from those with the capitol.

You want your staff to be competant and skilled, so you may offer a little more than the guy down the street to anyone who has the
credentials you are looking for.

Absolutely true. Business will pay more for skilled labor as there are only so many ways to generate profit with totally unskilled labor and only so
many skilled persons to go around. Interestingly people with the same skill sets and experience have wildly different salaries all over the world so
perhaps we can discuss why they can earn more in some places than other?

For the nitwit who takes 17 bathroom breaks that are 25 minutes long, who comes back late from lunch, and does not do a good job, you don't
offer that person much money, because they aren't worth it.

Well if you really don't need them it's always just better to fire them. Why do people insist on hiring such idiots anyways other than the fact that
they still believe they can make a buck off them? Shouldn't the question really be who's exploiting who best and can't this then serve as evidence
that some employers just are not good enough at exploiting workers?

Typically you'd fire them, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Well typically ( for most of the history of the world) you could just fire them or, not so long ago, sell them to someone who will place less demands
on them or who were more willing to coerce them by whatever means proved effective. As for the legal consequences of firing someone that's a
relatively recent addition to the employers problems and not one that big business isn't still doing it's best to undermine by union busting and
firing anyone who shows interest in organizing workers.

Min. wage is a bad bad bad thing.

Well i agree in the sense that in a good system where workers had the means to defend themselves these sorts of regulation work in fact undermine the
'free hand' of the marketplace. Since the marketplace is by no means fair and workers largely incapable of defending themselves against the might or
organized capitol the best we can do is to provide at least this measure of protection. As i said before if you can't make five bucks off a worker (
no benefits or anything else) you should probably try to replace him with a robot and see if that works out cheaper.

It forces smaller businesses to offer less positions for pay...because instead of paying 10 low-skilled employee's $5.15 an hour, now you can
only afford to pay 6 low-skilled employee's $8.00 an hour....leaving 4 people unemployed.

Ideally yes. In a market where capitol had a social consciousness and paid the 6 employed a decent wage that is a loss but since the market has proved
itself incapable of paying decent wages for anything but the skilled and highly unionized and organized we just can't leave it up to them. I agree
that it would be great if the system were in fact self regulating but as we can see from the recent wall street escapades you can't trust the fund
managers to invest properly, the bankers to loan money to people who can pay it back, the ratings agencies for fair ratings or the book keepers for
keeping books that add's up. If only we had evidence that the capitalist knew how to manage their capitol we could start to consider trusting them
with managing people.

For those in the work place who make a bad wage, there's only one way to fix it. Be good at what you do.

The question being begged here is just how good can you be at flipping burgers after a few months of practice? Why does Walmart and other such
'industries' have such a massive turn over in workers and why do they keep generating massive profits when they have to retain 50% of their staff
every year? Don't you see that the vast majority of jobs in the world are still basically rote/mechanical tasks that you can learn on the job and
that most people on the planet could do? Why would they pay you more than what keeps you alive for a term long enough to get just their invested
training funds back when they are literally hundreds of millions all over the world that could do the same job and are so desperate that they would do
it for even less food?

I understand that your argument might be focused on the oft presumed 'highly skilled' western worker but why are there such salary desperaties
between such workers in the various western countries? Why does unionized societies tend to get a better deal no matter what job the individual
citizens are doing? How is that a bad thing when suitable trade barriers and currency controls mean that such societies enjoy higher living standards?
If you don't pay people how are they supposed to buy your products any ways? Why is it always presumed that someone else will pay them the money they
will need to buy the shoes their making in your shop? The drive to ever lower wages is simply illogical as it presumes that some other company,
country or continent will create consumption while your destroying it with ever lower wages. That is what globalization really is, a drive to the
bottom.

If you're a burger flipper, be a great one with a good attitude.

Lol. You go flip burgers and see how happy that makes you unless your previous job were even lower paying and more demeaning.

Businesses reward their upstanding employee's.

Ideally yes but getting a good burger flipper ( everything is timed so most primary school kids can do it with a few hours/days of training) is not
hard which is why there are no unions in such businesses. You have NO claim to being great at what you do and your only claim to uniqueness would be
for how little pay you would do what the mechanics of the system limits you to any ways. All i see a discussion of a the very perfectly self
regulating system i would love to be part of.

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