Theresa May’s Brexit deal will have equivalent cost of losing the economic output of Wales or the City of London, research suggests.

The prime minister will plead with MPs to back her deal in a Commons statement on Monday afternoon.

A report by the the National Institute for Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said May’s plan will reduce the value of the UK economy by 3.9% - or £100bn a year by 2030 - compared to staying in the EU.

According to the study, this would be an average cost of more than £1,000 a person.

The NIESR study, which will be launched today by the People’s Vote campaign that wants a second referendum, said a no deal exit would reduce GDP by 5.5 per cent, or £140bn a year.

On Sunday EU leaders endorsed the agreement at an emergency summit in Brussels.

But the prime minister faces an uphill battle to win the vote in the Commons - due to take place in December.

In a statement to parliament today, May will tell MPs there is “not a better deal available”.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

Lord Foul wrote:well losing london would not be a bad thing at all.....quick sink it.....

You'd rather be more than £1,000 poorer per year, eh?

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

Supermarkets giants like Sainsbury which made a net profit last year of 309 million may have to take a cut in profits after Brexit. CEO of Sainsbury took home £2.8m last year. An increase of 86% on the previous year. He may have to take a pay cut because of Brexit.

A major shortcoming of most studies on the impact of Brexit, on both sides of the argument, is the assumption that current trading and supply chain arrangements will remain the same after Brexit, whatever Brexit scenario is considered. Such static and deterministic forecasting models are unrealistic and quite frankly useless in trying to predict the impacts of an unpredictable / unplanned process of U.K. desintegration from the EU. True it is difficult to predict how Brexit will look like with this Government showing no plan (and possibly having no clue) on what form of Brexit, if any, they want to achieve; but any rigorous study should be dynamic and stochastic in nature. Common sense shows that businesses and consumers alike will re-design their current supply chain systems and most likely look for new supply chain partners outside the EU; which although it comes at a cost, this will be far less than the cost of sticking to current single market / customs union arrangements while opening both U.K. and non EU markets especially if a policy of 0% tariffs on imports is applied.

HoratioTarr wrote:Supermarkets giants like Sainsbury which made a net profit last year of 309 million may have to take a cut in profits after Brexit. CEO of Sainsbury took home £2.8m last year. An increase of 86% on the previous year. He may have to take a pay cut because of Brexit.

Aww...diddums

Yeah, they're not taking a cut in profits. Giant corporations don't do that, they jack up prices and lay off workers.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

HoratioTarr wrote:Supermarkets giants like Sainsbury which made a net profit last year of 309 million may have to take a cut in profits after Brexit. CEO of Sainsbury took home £2.8m last year. An increase of 86% on the previous year. He may have to take a pay cut because of Brexit.

Aww...diddums

Yeah, they're not taking a cut in profits. Giant corporations don't do that, they jack up prices and lay off workers.

HoratioTarr wrote:Supermarkets giants like Sainsbury which made a net profit last year of 309 million may have to take a cut in profits after Brexit. CEO of Sainsbury took home £2.8m last year. An increase of 86% on the previous year. He may have to take a pay cut because of Brexit.

Aww...diddums

Yeah, they're not taking a cut in profits. Giant corporations don't do that, they jack up prices and lay off workers.

Nothing new there. They've been doing that for decades.

Yeah, they don't sacrifice profits for the sake of the little people, I don't know why you said they would.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

Thor wrote:So another doom and gloom prediction by economists on Brexit

Just how many of these predictions since the referendum, have turned out to be true?

Zero

To be fair, you're still very much a part of the EU. You have to actually make the change before you'll see for yourself what it will do.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

I thought we were talking about economic groups that have made predictions through the transitition period, after brexit

Every single doom and gloom one being wrong

Are you denying this?

Everything I've read about doom and gloom has been after formally pulling out of the union, not about the period of negotiations.

Business will only start leaving in numbers when Britain is no longer a 'gateway to Europe'. Which at the moment, it still is.

Denial alert to this is about predicitions, where nobody can predict such a situation or how buisness will act

A couple have made claims, that is it they will leave the UK

You simple want to believe in fairy tales on this, which is your choice

There is no denial, I never said, nor did others, that there would be a noticeably negative impact after we formally leave. We haven't formally left yet. But when Japanese car makers suggest pulling out if the gateway closes people should take notice.

It is delusional to think losing free trade with the EU will have no effect on UK businesses.

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt

Denial alert to this is about predicitions, where nobody can predict such a situation or how buisness will act

A couple have made claims, that is it they will leave the UK

You simple want to believe in fairy tales on this, which is your choice

There is no denial, I never said, nor did others, that there would be a noticeably negative impact after we formally leave. We haven't formally left yet. But when Japanese car makers suggest pulling out if the gateway closes people should take notice.

It is delusional to think losing free trade with the EU will have no effect on UK businesses.

The point is here, you have bought into the doom and gloom predictions, since day one by economic groups and not one of these predictions has turned out to be right

Not a single one. You then poorly try to argue, where you and others have been wrong already. That because the divorce has not been finalized, that the seperation has not happened. Thus its going to be all doom and gloom.

There you go again based now on Japanese car makers, again a indication, you are being driven by fear predictions. When only Toyata has said it could lead to disruption. Not that they would pull out. Another case of you now misleading posters

Denial alert to this is about predicitions, where nobody can predict such a situation or how buisness will act

A couple have made claims, that is it they will leave the UK

You simple want to believe in fairy tales on this, which is your choice

There is no denial, I never said, nor did others, that there would be a noticeably negative impact after we formally leave. We haven't formally left yet. But when Japanese car makers suggest pulling out if the gateway closes people should take notice.

It is delusional to think losing free trade with the EU will have no effect on UK businesses.

The point is here, you have bought into the doom and gloom predictions, since day one by economic groups and not one of these predictions has turned out to be right

Not a single one. You then poorly try to argue, where you and others have been wrong already. That because the divorce has not been finalized, that the seperation has not happened. Thus its going to be all doom and gloom.

There you go again based now on Japanese car makers, again a indication, you are being driven by fear predictions. When only Toyata has said it could lead to disruption. Not that they would pull out. Another case of you now misleading posters

No prediction has turned out right because... Nevermind.

At this rate May won't even get her deal, which will put us in total limbo, let's see what that does to the pound. Even if she does - great, we keep our trade agreement, and become a vassal state of the EU with no say whatsoever. Worse than we have now.

You have an awful of faith in this government of ineptitude getting this right

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt

The point is here, you have bought into the doom and gloom predictions, since day one by economic groups and not one of these predictions has turned out to be right

Not a single one. You then poorly try to argue, where you and others have been wrong already. That because the divorce has not been finalized, that the seperation has not happened. Thus its going to be all doom and gloom.

There you go again based now on Japanese car makers, again a indication, you are being driven by fear predictions. When only Toyata has said it could lead to disruption. Not that they would pull out. Another case of you now misleading posters

No prediction has turned out right because... Nevermind.

At this rate May won't even get her deal, which will put us in total limbo, let's see what that does to the pound. Even if she does - great, we keep our trade agreement, and become a vassal state of the EU with no say whatsoever. Worse than we have now.

You have an awful of faith in this government of ineptitude getting this right

I see you have moved the goal posts and change direction of your argument

This was about predictions, again

You then do a cathy newman and claim I have faith in this goverment

Then made any such claim

I simple am showing that predictions on this have been in every single case, wrong

I do not support the deal by May, nor do I support the Conservatives or Labour

The point is here, you have bought into the doom and gloom predictions, since day one by economic groups and not one of these predictions has turned out to be right

Not a single one. You then poorly try to argue, where you and others have been wrong already. That because the divorce has not been finalized, that the seperation has not happened. Thus its going to be all doom and gloom.

There you go again based now on Japanese car makers, again a indication, you are being driven by fear predictions. When only Toyata has said it could lead to disruption. Not that they would pull out. Another case of you now misleading posters

No prediction has turned out right because... Nevermind.

At this rate May won't even get her deal, which will put us in total limbo, let's see what that does to the pound. Even if she does - great, we keep our trade agreement, and become a vassal state of the EU with no say whatsoever. Worse than we have now.

You have an awful of faith in this government of ineptitude getting this right

I see you have moved the goal posts and change direction of your argument

This was about predictions, again

You then do a cathy newman and claim I have faith in this goverment

Then made any such claim

I simple am showing that predictions on this have been in every single case, wrong

I do not support the deal by May, nor do I support the Conservatives or Labour

Night

There's no point in a discussion about predictions when the circumstances on which the prediction are based have not yet come about. You seem to totally lack understanding of this basic fact.

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt

There is no logical economic reason for Toyota, Nissan, Ford and GM to keep manufacturing plants in Britain...

Unless the British guvm'nt extends some big tax breaks to keep them on, the car makers can do what they did down here -- close down the production lines, while upgrading and expanding their current factories in Europe and Africa to make up the shortfall, eventually becoming full importers into Britain; (now that Renault owns Nissan, they can always move that production line into an existing site in Europe, too)..

All the major car manufacturers are now operating "global" business plans, setting up various manufacturing plants in suitable countries, while keeping their design studios in those places with a good track record (e.g. California, Melbourne (Australia), Japan, England, Germany), and simply maintaining import/final assembly/ distribution networks in those countries where they have ceased actual production.

The Ford Ranger utility/'pickup' is a perfect example of "globalisation" in action -- designed and tested in Australia; built in a joint Ford/Mazda factory in Thailand, fitted with a Japanese-designed engine and transmission; then exported in various trim levels, either fully assembled or broken down into 'CKD' ("completely knocked-down") packages for re-assembly in certain countries -- where often these days many people don't even know where their car was built, but are only aware of what badge it is wearing..

_________________It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.Our life is frittered away by details. Simplify, simplify.The mass of men lead lives of quite desperation.Henry David Thoreau

You need to stop being a scared little bunny rabbit over all of this and pipe down with the clap trap on what I understand.

1. I'm not scared. Why would I be scared? Concerned is a better word, though I'm still hardly going to be losing sleep over it

2. The predictions are based on what will happen AFTER the UK is completely OUT of the Single Market and Customs and Union. NOT post June 2016 vote.

If you respond with 'well nothing has happened yet, and you said it would' AGAIN then obviously you either don't understand or didn't listen to what I've repeatedly said in point 2 above.

1) You certainly are, when as seen, you peddaled a poor lie of the Japanese car industry. People scared often over inflate or simple lie about the current situation

2) Yes and we have seen predictions in the short term after the referendum

All of them being wrong

Maybe I am not listening to what you say, is because I find it not worth listening to, espically when you tell porkies

God your arrogance is overwhelming at times.

OK didge, I'm scared; and nothing will happen to the economy after we leave because nothing is happening now. I'm overwhelmed by your enormous knowledge, so much that you even know how I think better than I do

Of course companies will continue coming to the UK knowing they'll then have the privilege of tariffs when exporting to the EU - makes total economic sense, right

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt

1) You certainly are, when as seen, you peddaled a poor lie of the Japanese car industry. People scared often over inflate or simple lie about the current situation

2) Yes and we have seen predictions in the short term after the referendum

All of them being wrong

Maybe I am not listening to what you say, is because I find it not worth listening to, espically when you tell porkies

God your arrogance is overwhelming at times.

OK didge, I'm scared; and nothing will happen to the economy after we leave because nothing is happening now. I'm overwhelmed by your enormous knowledge, so much that you even know how I think better than I do

Of course companies will continue coming to the UK knowing they'll then have the privilege of tariffs when exporting to the EU - makes total economic sense, right

So yet more cathy newman alert

I see the scared little bunny rabbit has to again invoke things I never said

Lets recap, you lied, inorder to invoke people to be scared

That is typical of a leftist mindset

Nothing to with arrogance, its simple exposing you for poorly lying and trying to poorly scare people, based on a bias view you hold here not to leave the EU

I however want to remain in the EU, but do not invoke scare tactics or lies like you

1) You certainly are, when as seen, you peddaled a poor lie of the Japanese car industry. People scared often over inflate or simple lie about the current situation

2) Yes and we have seen predictions in the short term after the referendum

All of them being wrong

Maybe I am not listening to what you say, is because I find it not worth listening to, espically when you tell porkies

God your arrogance is overwhelming at times.

OK didge, I'm scared; and nothing will happen to the economy after we leave because nothing is happening now. I'm overwhelmed by your enormous knowledge, so much that you even know how I think better than I do

Of course companies will continue coming to the UK knowing they'll then have the privilege of tariffs when exporting to the EU - makes total economic sense, right

So yet more cathy newman alert

I see the scared little bunny rabbit has to again invoke things I never said

Lets recap, you lied, inorder to invoke people to be scared

That is typical of a leftist mindset

Nothing to with arrogance, its simple exposing you for poorly lying and trying to poorly scare people, based on a bias view you hold here not to leave the EU

I however want to remain in the EU, but do not invoke scare tactics or lies like you

Get a grip mate.

How many people in this thread? How many who support Brexit? Not a great deal.

So who exactly am I trying to scare by bringing up Japanese car companies? You are just parroting things you've heard elsewhere.

I'm using it as one example of companies that might see no reason to stick around post-Brexit. And I've explain WHY that is.

Yet all we get from you is: 'scaring people' 'little bunny' and your #termoftheweek 'cathy newman'.

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt

Thor wrote:So another doom and gloom prediction by economists on Brexit

Just how many of these predictions since the referendum, have turned out to be true?

Zero

To be fair, you're still very much a part of the EU. You have to actually make the change before you'll see for yourself what it will do.

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

Denial alert to this is about predicitions, where nobody can predict such a situation or how buisness will act

A couple have made claims, that is it they will leave the UK

You simple want to believe in fairy tales on this, which is your choice

There is no denial, I never said, nor did others, that there would be a noticeably negative impact after we formally leave. We haven't formally left yet. But when Japanese car makers suggest pulling out if the gateway closes people should take notice.

It is delusional to think losing free trade with the EU will have no effect on UK businesses.

The bigger the business, the more they stamp their trotters in an effort to make us all tremble. Perhaps it's about time more focus was put on smaller businesses, those who have sunk due to EU directives. This is the case with the MiFID II regulation in the EU. Small and medium sized firms suffer because they can’t compete when the costs of complying with regulation that is so high.

I used to run an artisan on line soap company. That went to the wall when EU Cosmetic Directives started hiking up the red tape and insisting things like bite tests which cost £150 per item that you sell. I had all the Safety Certificates issued by an industrial chemist, which cost in excess of £1,500, insurance, etc, and joined the Cosmetic Portal, but they kept on piling it on until the little businesses went under. It happened to lots of us. Now, this only happens if you're in the EU. Australia and the USA aren't as stringent.

There were over 50,000 regulatory updates introduced in 2015. Only the larger companies can possibly compete with that. No wonder our High Streets are dying.

Look at Britain's fishing industry. Fishing areas up to 200 miles from our coast. Under the terms under which we joined the EU, distance was reduced to just 12 miles and even that has depended on a concession that has to be renewed every 10 years. As if this were not bad enough, we have to donate British taxpayers’ money to other fishing countries particularly Greece and Poland.

Britain has also been a world leader in science not only a subject of study, but as a business. Britain used to conduct 12 per cent of the clinical trials in the world. Now we only carry out one per cent. What happened? The European Union passed the Clinical Trials Directive which, in the words of the scientist Matt Ridley, “destroyed clinical trials in this country”. Since the directive was passed, it has been reformed and made more reasonable, but… too late. The industry had already gone to India and elsewhere. It’s a similar story in agricultural biotechnology. We had a leading role here until the European Union’s “deliberate release” directive on testing genetically modified crops or insects. Now the process for obtaining approval for experiments in this area is so cumbersome that most scientists have given up even applying for it.

To be fair, you're still very much a part of the EU. You have to actually make the change before you'll see for yourself what it will do.

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

Thor wrote:So another doom and gloom prediction by economists on Brexit

Just how many of these predictions since the referendum, have turned out to be true?

Zero

To be fair, you're still very much a part of the EU. You have to actually make the change before you'll see for yourself what it will do.

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

How could I actually be happy if I knew that choosing what was best for me would lead to so many other people suffering? Wouldn't that make a complete coward, a complete cunt, out of me?

I prefer to kick your laws straight up the asshole, just as you've got them set out. That way, I'll be able to respect myself.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

To be fair, you're still very much a part of the EU. You have to actually make the change before you'll see for yourself what it will do.

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

No answer?

This is one of the problems with people on the right. You think that we on the left are pretending. You think we could be "normal" like yourselves, but we've decided to be all weird and different.

The way we on the left act and think and behave is perfectly natural to us. Don't expect me to "wake up" one day and act only in my own self-interest without any regard to the harm I might be causing to others. That ain't like me.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

To be fair, you're still very much a part of the EU. You have to actually make the change before you'll see for yourself what it will do.

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

No answer?

This is one of the problems with people on the right. You think that we on the left are pretending. You think we could be "normal" like yourselves, but we've decided to be all weird and different.

The way we on the left act and think and behave is perfectly natural to us. Don't expect me to "wake up" one day and act only in my own self-interest without any regard to the harm I might be causing to others. That ain't like me.

Cause Right Wing are innately Evil and selfish they assume everyone else is too.this is a well established fact Like Conservatives by definition are cowardly fearful individuals which is why they a terrified of changes. they Don;t understand that Some people are not scared ignorant weakling like themselves

_________________My job is to travel the world delivering Chaos and Candy.

We don't know the Questions... does that means we cannot seek the Answers?

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

How could I actually be happy if I knew that choosing what was best for me would lead to so many other people suffering? Wouldn't that make a complete coward, a complete cunt, out of me?

I prefer to kick your laws straight up the asshole, just as you've got them set out. That way, I'll be able to respect myself.

This is one of the problems with people on the right. You think that we on the left are pretending. You think we could be "normal" like yourselves, but we've decided to be all weird and different.

The way we on the left act and think and behave is perfectly natural to us. Don't expect me to "wake up" one day and act only in my own self-interest without any regard to the harm I might be causing to others. That ain't like me.

I’d go for what helps me first and foremost. Absolutely I would! I’d be selfish and get what I wanted and fuck everyone else. Then once I’m happy and content, I can look to better others’ lives if I so wished.

And I reckon most people would choose the same in the same position if they were honest enough.

(And labels! Who the fuck wants to be bogged down by one of those?)

_________________“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted”― Ralph Waldo Emerson

I’d go for what helps me first and foremost. Absolutely I would! I’d be selfish and get what I wanted and fuck everyone else. Then once I’m happy and content, I can look to better others’ lives if I so wished.

And I reckon most people would choose the same in the same position if they were honest enough.

This is one of the problems with people on the right. You think that we on the left are pretending. You think we could be "normal" like yourselves, but we've decided to be all weird and different.

The way we on the left act and think and behave is perfectly natural to us. Don't expect me to "wake up" one day and act only in my own self-interest without any regard to the harm I might be causing to others. That ain't like me.

So, you're saying that your sense of patriotic loyalty to the people of Britain overrides your personal life and what would be best for you and your wife? I don't believe you. I think you'd jump at the chance and fuck the EU. I know I would.

One of the problems with people on the 'left', is their pomposity towards anyone who disagrees with them, or drags their hypocrisy into the light. When push comes to shove, we'll all do what we feel is right for us as individuals. Not what's best for the man next door, or the economy or the price of haddock in restricted fishing waters.

Do you think for one moment the people who made the laws barring you from entering the UK to be with your wife, yet allow other migrants with less to offer than you free movement into our country, give a shit about you? Get real.

This is one of the problems with people on the right. You think that we on the left are pretending. You think we could be "normal" like yourselves, but we've decided to be all weird and different.

The way we on the left act and think and behave is perfectly natural to us. Don't expect me to "wake up" one day and act only in my own self-interest without any regard to the harm I might be causing to others. That ain't like me.

So, you're saying that your sense of patriotic loyalty to the people of Britain overrides your personal life and what would be best for you and your wife? I don't believe you. I think you'd jump at the chance and fuck the EU. I know I would.

One of the problems with people on the 'left', is their pomposity towards anyone who disagrees with them, or drags their hypocrisy into the light. When push comes to shove, we'll all do what we feel is right for us as individuals. Not what's best for the man next door, or the economy or the price of haddock in restricted fishing waters.

Do you think for one moment the people who made the laws barring you from entering the UK to be with your wife, yet allow other migrants with less to offer than you free movement into our country, give a shit about you? Get real.

It's funny. When you live by a code like I do, it doesn't really matter whether other people give a shit or not. It's about how you conduct yourself. And the people making the laws but not caring about who it affects are the problem, not me.

That said, if Brexit goes through and it allows me into the UK, of course I'm coming. But I couldn't make that decision, and I would (after gaining citizenship of course) speak out against austerity measures and unreasonable immigration restrictions.

I'm going to raise the money, with my wife, and I'm going to come over and I'm going to tell everyone what a cruel policy it is to keep innocent people who love one another apart because some people think you're running out of room or whatever.

It's not being pompous, HT. It's following what your heart tells you is right.

We've had others on the right who say they have the same basic impulse to look out for the well-being of others, with some differences from people on the left - maybe they focus on their communities, or they prefer a non-governmental approach. I respect that. I can't respect a "me first" attitude in any walk of life, though, not really.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

I’d go for what helps me first and foremost. Absolutely I would! I’d be selfish and get what I wanted and fuck everyone else. Then once I’m happy and content, I can look to better others’ lives if I so wished.

And I reckon most people would choose the same in the same position if they were honest enough.

(And labels! Who the fuck wants to be bogged down by one of those?)

I admire your honesty.

And yet you can't even accept that I'm being just as honest as she is, let alone express any admiration for it.

Last edited by *THE Ben Reilly* on Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

How could I actually be happy if I knew that choosing what was best for me would lead to so many other people suffering? Wouldn't that make a complete coward, a complete cunt, out of me?

I prefer to kick your laws straight up the asshole, just as you've got them set out. That way, I'll be able to respect myself.

Dodged the question

No I didn't, not really, but if my answer wasn't simple enough for you to understand, I wouldn't back leaving the EU regardless of what it meant for me, because I truly believe it will put the UK through hard times.

Don't get me wrong - I would love for the opposite to happen (just as I would love for someone to find conclusive proof that global warming isn't our fault). I don't like worrying.

I once again feel like the righties on here are asking me to "stop pretending" and be selfish. Sorry - that's not me!

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

I have a question for you. If leaving the EU meant you could come and live here with your wife, what would you back? Would you care about all the things you've brought up on this thread? The austerity? Lack of free movement across Europe? Would you care about migrants and the poor? Would you sacrifice that, for your moralistic view on Brexit?

How could I actually be happy if I knew that choosing what was best for me would lead to so many other people suffering? Wouldn't that make a complete coward, a complete cunt, out of me?

I prefer to kick your laws straight up the asshole, just as you've got them set out. That way, I'll be able to respect myself.

Dodged the question

No I didn't, not really, but if my answer wasn't simple enough for you to understand, I wouldn't back leaving the EU regardless of what it meant for me, because I truly believe it will put the UK through hard times.

Don't get me wrong - I would love for the opposite to happen (just as I would love for someone to find conclusive proof that global warming isn't our fault). I don't like worrying.

I once again feel like the righties on here are asking me to "stop pretending" and be selfish. Sorry - that's not me!

It is sad. I mean, of course given the opportunity you'd be over in a flash, and why not. I don't get why people see that as hypocritical or anything though. It is human nature to take opportunities when they arise. It is really sad though that many on the Right are happy to deny opportunities to others if they think it affects them even slightly (the health care debate in America epitomises this mind set).

That people see Leftie values as dishonest is a really, really sad reflection of our society. And why freak show asshats like Trump get elected - because apparently an 'honest' sounding cunt is preferable to someone who sounds too righteous (and therefore must be lying).

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt

Here we have a stark example of a right-leaning member who apparently does not believe that I don't feel the same way as her, to the point of implying I've been dishonest.

It really reinforces an idea for a thread that I've had the past few days - that conservatives see themselves as the "Normal Police," i.e. that they have a strong tendency toward defining what's normal, usually based on themselves, and a strong tendency to want to stamp out what they see as abnormal.

I think most liberals can sense this about conservatives, and that among many other things, that's a big reason we laugh when they try to claim Hitler was a leftist.

_________________“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”

*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:I think you're exactly right about that part with Trump.

Here we have a stark example of a right-leaning member who apparently does not believe that I don't feel the same way as her, to the point of implying I've been dishonest.

It really reinforces an idea for a thread that I've had the past few days - that conservatives see themselves as the "Normal Police," i.e. that they have a strong tendency toward defining what's normal, usually based on themselves, and a strong tendency to want to stamp out what they see as abnormal.

I think most liberals can sense this about conservatives, and that among many other things, that's a big reason we laugh when they try to claim Hitler was a leftist.

The normal police is a good way of putting it, a few names spring to mind automatically

And yeah, one of many reasons the Hitler claim is utterly bizarre.

_________________"The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead"Teddy Roosevelt