We’ve talked a lot about the standouts at the just-completed NFL Scouting Combine, but what players may have hurt their stock?

According to Charley Casserly of NFL.com, highly rated Alabama defenders Courtney Upshaw (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7478/courtney-upshaw) and Dre Kirkpatrick (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7463/dre-kirkpatrick) are on the list (http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/09000d5d8274a12c/article/bamas-upshaw-kirkpatrick-disappoint-in-indy-poe-hill-rise).
Upshaw lacked the explosion that you’d like to see from an edge rusher according to Casserly. Kirkpatrick’s cornerback drills were lacking and he didn’t display the burst you’d like to see from a potential top-15 pick. It’s possible Janoris Jenkins (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6473/janoris-jenkins) could pass Kirkpatrick as the No. 2 cornerback in the draft.

UNC defensive end Quinton Couples is also mentioned as someone that struggled. While Coples ran a ridiculous forty time for his size, his work in the drills left something to be desired.

Of course, not everyone watching the workout is going to agree with Casserly. It only takes one team to fall in love, and Coples seems especially likely to make one team reach high for him in the draft.

Neither one helped themselves at the combine, although Kirkpatricks 4.4 time in the 40 helps. Kirkpatrick never made it to the #2 CB spot on my board at any point to begin with. He's just a little too stiff in his hips and doesn't have the elite man-to-man coverage skills. He's a good zone corner and a physical player.... good tackler who can hit. He'll stick his nose in there and pop ball carriers, force fumbles. Still a 1st round pick in the right system. He'll play a long time, perhaps even move to safety at some point.

I like Coples, but he just doesn't have the lower body explosion to be a consistent 10 sack guy. I've compared Malik Jackson and Coples several times and referred to Jackson as a bit of a poor man's Coples. They're essentially the same player, and play the game the same. They've both played a little bit of DT and DE in college, and they tested out very similar at the combine.

Coples: 6'5 3/4" -- 284 -- 33 1/4" arms -- 10 1/4" hands

Jackson: 6'4 3/4" -- 284 -- 33 3/4" arms -- 9" hands

Coples: 4.78 in the 40

Jackson: 4.91 in the 40

Coples: 25 reps

Jackson: 25 reps

Coples: 31.5" vertical

Jackson: 28" vertical

Coples: 9'1" broad

Jackson: 8'9" broad

Coples: 7.57 (3-cone)

Jackson: 7.38 (3-cone)

Coples: 4.78 (20 yard shuttle)

Jackson: 4.41 (20 yard shuttle)

I can see the advantage Jackson has over Coples in the 3-Cone and 20 yard shuttle on tape when they're both out play the DE position. Jackson can work a tackle over a little better on the edge when he's given the opportunity.

There's not much difference in their college production:

Coples: 50 games / 144 tackles / 40.5 TFL's / 24 sacks

Jackson: 39 games / 126 tackles / 27.5 TFL's / 13 sacks

The bottom line is, I don't think there's 3 rounds and several million dollars worth of difference between the two. Especially when you consider some of the inconsistency in effort with Coples. However, I don't believe that Coples issues are as much effort related as they are he just doesn't have the lower body explosion to stand out as much as people expect him to.

MiamiMuss

02-29-2012, 07:26 PM

Whats really amazing about the Bama players is that not 1 single player wowwed any1.The Bama team as a whole did WOW every1.

It leaves a person to think,is 1 player that much Greater then the team itself?

jim1

02-29-2012, 07:43 PM

Neither one helped themselves at the combine, although Kirkpatricks 4.4 time in the 40 helps. Kirkpatrick never made it to the #2 CB spot on my board at any point to begin with. He's just a little too stiff in his hips and doesn't have the elite man-to-man coverage skills. He's a good zone corner and a physical player.... good tackler who can hit. He'll stick his nose in there and pop ball carriers, force fumbles. Still a 1st round pick in the right system. He'll play a long time, perhaps even move to safety at some point.

I like Coples, but he just doesn't have the lower body explosion to be a consistent 10 sack guy. I've compared Malik Jackson and Coples several times and referred to Jackson as a bit of a poor man's Coples. They're essentially the same player, and play the game the same. They've both played a little bit of DT and DE in college, and they tested out very similar at the combine.

Coples: 6'5 3/4" -- 284 -- 33 1/4" arms -- 10 1/4" hands

Jackson: 6'4 3/4" -- 284 -- 33 3/4" arms -- 9" hands

Coples: 4.78 in the 40

Jackson: 4.91 in the 40

Coples: 25 reps

Jackson: 25 reps

Coples: 31.5" vertical

Jackson: 28" vertical

Coples: 9'1" broad

Jackson: 8'9" broad

Coples: 7.57 (3-cone)

Jackson: 7.38 (3-cone)

Coples: 4.78 (20 yard shuttle)

Jackson: 4.41 (20 yard shuttle)

I can see the advantage Jackson has over Coples in the 3-Cone and 20 yard shuttle on tape when they're both out play the DE position. Jackson can work a tackle over a little better on the edge when he's given the opportunity.

There's not much difference in their college production:

Coples: 50 games / 144 tackles / 40.5 TFL's / 24 sacks

Jackson: 39 games / 126 tackles / 27.5 TFL's / 13 sacks

The bottom line is, I don't think there's 3 rounds and several million dollars worth of difference between the two. Especially when you consider some of the inconsistency in effort with Coples. However, I don't believe that Coples issues are as much effort related as they are he just doesn't have the lower body explosion to stand out as much as people expect him to.

Works for me. I just can't help but think that Coples is a risk, and I'd personally take Upshaw or Ingram over him. I'm not all about comparing players from the same school, but if I recall correctly kentwan Balmer made a late run out of UNC a few years ago- I just can't wrap my head around the rationalizations of Coples' lack of production, and I don't really want to either.

Does Irealnd go for a 6-1 Upshaw or a 6-1 Ingram? I have my doubts. I'm firmly on record as which way I think we should go at #8, in the absence of a trade down. On top of everything else, Coples enjoying the south beach lifestyle seems like a potential problem as well. For better or worse, my instinct is to shy away from that guy.

DKphin

02-29-2012, 07:49 PM

NFL Combine 2012: Courtney Upshaw's Workout Reveals Major Flaw in His Game

No doubt Upshaw will be a terrific run defender, as long as he stays disciplined. If he gets out of position in the NFL, his athletic limitations won't allow him to recover, and running backs will be able to zip right past him.

Is Courtney Upshaw an outside linebacker in the NFL?
Yes
55.6%
No
44.4%
Total votes: 63

What this shows me is that Upshaw will likely be better suited as a defensive lineman than as a linebacker. He isn't a three-down player as a linebacker due to his inability to turn and cover. Linebackers who can't play three downs should never be taken in the first round.
When compared to the other top defensive linemen coming out, I would have to say that Upshaw ranks lower than Melvin Ingram, Quinton Coples, Whitney Mercilus and Nick Perry.
Before the combine, I had considered Upshaw to be a top-10 pick in the 2012 NFL draft. After his workout on the field, I don't see him being taken inside the top 20.
Upshaw can improve his stock with a strong showing at his March 7 pro day (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/02/alabama_sets_pro_day_for_march.html). Until he proves otherwise, however, I don't see him as a viable option to play outside linebacker in the NFL.

The thing I disagree with here is that Upshaw is better suited as a defensive lineman than a linebacker (3-4 rush linebacker). You can't line up Courtney Upshaw or Melvin Ingram at DE in the NFL for 70+ snaps, down after down, and expect them to beat NFL offensive tackles with 34-35" arms. They're going to get blocked and stay blocked a lot. Their arms are too short, and they don't have the initial first step quickness to beat tackles down after down. In fact, there's not many in the NFL that do. Very few.

You have to move players around and put them in the best position to be productive for you. Even proven pro-bowl pass rushers in the NFL need this.

You can't just draft 6'1" guys with 31" arms and think you're going to line them up and play them at DE every snap and they're just going to rack up sacks for you. It requires a plan. Upshaw and Ingram are the type of guys that can be productive for you, and be impact players in the edge of your defense..... but it's going to take a coach who's creative and has a plan for how to use them.

Upshaw understands the aspect of maintaining leverage, and the responsibilities of force and contain because he was coached so well on how to do it.

They're both talented and versatile players. You have to use them in creative ways like they were used in college by coaches like Ellis Johnson, Kirby Smart, and Nick Saban.

Nick Perry on the other hand, I think that's the type of kid you can just line up for 70 snaps over a left tackle and just let him eat. He has just enough length and the dynamic, explosive lower body to handle it. You'll still need to stunt and blitz, move him around a little bit, etc. to keep things fresh.

DKphin

02-29-2012, 08:19 PM

Nick Perry on the other hand, I think that's the type of kid you can just line up for 70 snaps over a left tackle and just let him eat. He has just enough length and the dynamic, explosive lower body to handle it. You'll still need to stunt and blitz, move him around a little bit, etc. to keep things fresh.I am with you on Perry. I heard that Upshaw did not have as short as arms as Ingram. He measured in at around 33", although I can not find anything in print.

TedSlimmJr

02-29-2012, 08:25 PM

I am with you on Perry. I heard that Upshaw did not have as short as arms as Ingram. He measured in at around 33", although I can not find anything in print.

Upshaw 32" arms, 1/2" longer than Ingram's.

NorFlaFin

02-29-2012, 08:28 PM

Is Upshaw the same size and weight as C.Wake? With Wake staring at 30yrs old, taking Upshaw in the 3rd might be a quality move.

jim1

02-29-2012, 08:48 PM

Is Upshaw the same size and weight as C.Wake? With Wake staring at 30yrs old, taking Upshaw in the 3rd might be a quality move.

The 3rd what? Hour of the draft?

DKphin

02-29-2012, 09:02 PM

The 3rd what? Hour of the draft?:lol2:

tylerdolphin

02-29-2012, 10:12 PM

Is Upshaw the same size and weight as C.Wake? With Wake staring at 30yrs old, taking Upshaw in the 3rd might be a quality move.

Id agree with you but we may miss out on Luck. Maybe we could trade back into the 3rd to snag both?

PSU Cane

03-01-2012, 01:15 AM

The lack of agility seen in Coples' 3-cone and shuttle showed up in his films (at least to me). He was quick off the snap but lacked the great lateral agility to turn the corner or adjust on run plays inside tackles that we've seen in elite rushers before like Julius Peppers. Add to that his motor questions and i'm not jumping through the roof to draft him at this point. Can he be solid? Sure. Elite? I'm not seeing that like others are.

Upshaw i view somewhat similar. His hands are violent and his body is thick, so he holds up well against the run and has pretty good feet. He also plays with nice leverage and has a nice shoulder dip to turn the corner. But he does not have a great first step or an explosive rush, so i wonder what type of sack potential he offers. He doesn't seem to be extremely fluid to be playing in space at OLB in a 3-4 (mainly a rush OLB), so i question what his true value is? Top 10? I don't know.

Because i'm not sold on either one of those guys to be elite rushers, which would warrant a Top-10 pick and fill a need at pass rusher for Miami, i would be willing to take a chance on a freak at a highly paid need position like Dontari Poe (boom or bust type player), a freak at a skill position like Trent Richardson, the top guard to come along in many years in DeCastro, or a non-sexy pick at a huge need position like RT (i like Jonathan Martin more than Reiff). I wouldn't even be opposed to taking Kuechly if we decide to switch to a 4-3 and move Dansby outside. Or you can be like Belichick and trade down, add much needed picks and get better value.....maybe look at guys like Mark Barron, Michael Floyd, Tannehill, Mike Adams, Poe, etc.

LANGER72

03-01-2012, 10:03 AM

Upshaw, Couples and KirkPatrick are not elite top 10 talent IMHO.
Couples seems lazy.
I would pass on all of them at #8

LANGER72

03-01-2012, 10:05 AM

The lack of agility seen in Coples' 3-cone and shuttle showed up in his films (at least to me). He was quick off the snap but lacked the great lateral agility to turn the corner or adjust on run plays inside tackles that we've seen in elite rushers before like Julius Peppers. Add to that his motor questions and i'm not jumping through the roof to draft him at this point. Can he be solid? Sure. Elite? I'm not seeing that like others are.

Upshaw i view somewhat similar. His hands are violent and his body is thick, so he holds up well against the run and has pretty good feet. He also plays with nice leverage and has a nice shoulder dip to turn the corner. But he does not have a great first step or an explosive rush, so i wonder what type of sack potential he offers. He doesn't seem to be extremely fluid to be playing in space at OLB in a 3-4 (mainly a rush OLB), so i question what his true value is? Top 10? I don't know.

Because i'm not sold on either one of those guys to be elite rushers, which would warrant a Top-10 pick and fill a need at pass rusher for Miami, i would be willing to take a chance on a freak at a highly paid need position like Dontari Poe (boom or bust type player), a freak at a skill position like Trent Richardson, the top guard to come along in many years in DeCastro, or a non-sexy pick at a huge need position like RT (i like Jonathan Martin more than Reiff). I wouldn't even be opposed to taking Kuechly if we decide to switch to a 4-3 and move Dansby outside. Or you can be like Belichick and trade down, add much needed picks and get better value.....maybe look at guys like Mark Barron, Michael Floyd, Tannehill, Mike Adams, Poe, etc.

I agree 100% with your post.

Miamifin23

03-01-2012, 12:09 PM

Upshaw won't sniff the 3rd rd dude.... If he slips out of the first it's because he bombed his pro day. Still, there's only a few impact pass rushers in this draft and he's one... Not the fastest but is a Terrell Suggs type player IMO... Not saying he's as good or will be as good but their body types are similar

2413fanphins

03-01-2012, 01:23 PM

Upshaw may not be a top ten pick, but he' ll be gone before the third round for **** sakes.

Hayden Fox

03-01-2012, 02:04 PM

Ingram is and has always been a better prospect than Upshaw. Who cares about Ingram's arm length when he is quick and explosive and can be used anywhere?

Name the last Nick Saban defender to be a stud in the NFL? They are products of the system.

MadDog 88

03-01-2012, 02:14 PM

Neither one helped themselves at the combine, although Kirkpatricks 4.4 time in the 40 helps. Kirkpatrick never made it to the #2 CB spot on my board at any point to begin with. He's just a little too stiff in his hips and doesn't have the elite man-to-man coverage skills. He's a good zone corner and a physical player.... good tackler who can hit. He'll stick his nose in there and pop ball carriers, force fumbles. Still a 1st round pick in the right system. He'll play a long time, perhaps even move to safety at some point.
Slimm, did Saban have him play safety at Bama? Why do you think he would transition well to safety? Strong in run support?

Namor

03-01-2012, 02:21 PM

Ingram is and has always been a better prospect than Upshaw. Who cares about Ingram's arm length when he is quick and explosive and can be used anywhere?

Name the last Nick Saban defender to be a stud in the NFL? They are products of the system.

Slimm, did Saban have him play safety at Bama? Why do you think he would transition well to safety? Strong in run support?

Dre will light you up in run support

MiamiDolphin618

03-01-2012, 03:04 PM

Ingram is and has always been a better prospect than Upshaw. Who cares about Ingram's arm length when he is quick and explosive and can be used anywhere?

If you want explosive and versatile Id be looking at Perry

Hayden Fox

03-01-2012, 03:16 PM

If you want explosive and versatile Id be looking at Perry

Perry is not explosive as Mel Ingram.

2413fanphins

03-01-2012, 03:28 PM

I was infafuated with getting upshaw a few weeks ago. Him bombing the combine has given me a little pause. Id still take him but im not so sure at 8the anymore. I still think hes a first rounder, but im confused as to why he didnt take the process seriously. Ive shifted more to a guy like keuchly at 8. He is could get be bpa, although its doesnt really fit a need at the moment. I still am.in favor of a te like fleener in the second, or a guard/ tackle. I certainly wouldnt complain.if.we dropped back in the first to nab an additional 2nd, this is my ideal scenario this year.

uga3406

03-01-2012, 07:21 PM

If I had to choose between them both I would go with Kirkpatrick. That kid is gonna be a player. Great skills and is a better option imo, then watching Sean Smith getting burned, for long td's again.