Posted
by
timothy
on Thursday June 27, 2013 @04:52PM
from the sir-you-need-to-get-back-in-line dept.

symbolset writes "Ars is reporting that Microsoft XBox One Kinect will not work on Windows PCs. It uses a proprietary connector and an adaptor will not be available. If you want Kinect for your PC you will need to buy a 'Kinect for Windows' product. Although the Kinect 1.0 for XBox 360 also had a proprietary connector it came with a USB adaptor for compatibility with older versions of the 360 that lacked the new proprietary port and PC compatibility was quickly hacked up by third parties."

..to shoot themselves in the ass with their desire to compartmentalize everything. One reason the Kinect was such a runaway success was the fact that people thought of doing imaginative things with it and stretching its operational boundaries.

they're just aping what Apple is doing. Oh Apple is dominating mp3 players with the ipod? Let's make the Zune! Apple has their own Apple stores? Let's open our Microsoft stores! Apple has proprietary connectors? Let's make proprietary connectors!

Except that Apple doesn't have proprietary connectors. The problem is that MS is aping what Apple is doing way after it has become clear that it was a huge success. Apple also has lots of failures, Microsoft is just very risk averse and they don't want to take any risk in order to innovate.

Except that Apple doesn't have proprietary connectors. The problem is that MS is aping what Apple is doing way after it has become clear that it was a huge success. Apple also has lots of failures, Microsoft is just very risk averse and they don't want to take any risk in order to innovate.

I'm partial to my iRiver Clix. Bought the 2GB version and the car cig lighter adapter for it shortly after I got back from Afghanistan back in 2006. 7 years later, it is still serving my music needs just fine when I'm out and about.

And a check on Google Shopping seems to indicate that it is still holding a fairly decent value for its age.

Remember the old Nentendo game pads. You couldn't plug them into a Sega, Atari or a PC.The PC joystick port was all weird.I had an old Amstrad 512cpc as a kid. It had a special mouse and keyboard and monitor connector. (It could use Sega and Atarti controllers though. )

Oh, come on, that had nothing to do with it selling well - 99.999% of the Kinects sold were just plugged into an Xbox 360 and used for normal console games. It was cool that it worked on a PC and they released a Windows SDK, but that had almost zero to do with the actual units sold.

99.999% of the Kinects sold were just plugged into an Xbox 360 and used for one or two console game and then left to collect dust after a few months.

Because, neat as the technology is (and I have to give kudos to Microsoft, the Kinect is neat tech), it doesn't really add anything to most games. Hell, in most cases it is more frustrating to use the Kinect to control your character than the regular gamepad. Sure, the Kinect-enabled party-games were fun for a while - mostly to show off to your friends - but they quickly wore out their welcome as everyone gravitated towards more traditional games, be it Rock Band, Madden or Call of Duty. The most use I got out of my Kinect was when playing Mass Effect 3, and then only because yelling "quicksave" was the one thing that the Kinect made easier to do than navigating all those menus with a gamepad.

With Kinect2 built into every XBOne ot will make it easier for developers to add the technology to their games but I have strong doubts that it will make motion-control any more/useful/.

What all the big 3 gaming consoles seem to be lacking is the ability to make menu selections with either the motion controller or the regular controller. Too time consuming when you have to home-in on a menu selection for each of several levels of menus. Let me use the regular controller for that stuff and keep the dedicated motion selection for the gameplay itself.

With Kinect2 built into every XBOne ot will make it easier for developers to add the technology to their games but I have strong doubts that it will make motion-control any more/useful/.

Like GPS and accelerometers in mobile devices, if developers have confidence that more/all users will have access to a certain technology, it's more likely they will try to come up with useful ideas.

Also, don't forget that the Kinect 2 is vastly improved over the Kinect in terms of depth resolution and AI capabilities. That alone could give developers what they need to take their games and other software to the next level.

To me the whole point of a playing a video game instead of going outside is that I can run like a world class athlete by pressing B. Kinect breaks that.

Who said Kinect required people to get their asses off the couch? There's certain a few games that do, but you'd be hard-pressed to accidentally buy "Dance Central" and expecting it to be a couch game. (Heck, I think Microsoft created a little box for the specs of the game called "activity level" to indicate how lazy you could be).

..to shoot themselves in the ass with their desire to compartmentalize everything. One reason the Kinect was such a runaway success was the fact that people thought of doing imaginative things with it and stretching its operational boundaries.

Original article says they're going to release 2 different Kinects; one for Windows and one for XBox One... but hey, let's form opinions based on headlines and cherry picking quotes!

Why? The XB1 is a PC, albeit a customized one operating in a walled-garden OS environment. Both have USB so interfacing isnt an issue. Greed-based pricing/licensing is the only reason they would need two models.

Xbox is sold at a loss and subsidized by the expectation of future game sales. The kinect 2 is an amazing piece of technology, that alone is worth thousands of dollars to a researcher, whose only other options until now have been sensors from specialized industrial suppliers with limited runs and excessive prices (we're talking $5k - $10k).

What Microsoft obviously doesn't want people doing is buying an Xbox, using only the Kincect, and not buying any media. Thus Kinect for Xbox only works with Xbox, and

I assume you mean compared to the $400 PS4....Take off the shit-colored glasses..

No I bought an Ouya I got it yesterday:), although I'm keeping an eye on the PS4 as its looking better than its previous offering. I am also interested in The (as yes vapourware) Google console...but we will have to wait and see.

The XBOX 360 pads used a cryptographic handshake to make sure no unauthorized 3rd party could make their own. It would be easy to make it work the other way too, i.e. prevent the Kinect working on a PC without doing the handshake which relies on a secret key hidden in the XBone.

It took maybe 5 years for a Chinese company to make their own 360 controllers. Presumably the DRM on the new hardware will be better protected.

Also I imagine the final Kinect 2 for Windows will surely be less expensive than the new XBox. If I buy the XBox One just for the Kinect, everybody loses -- I pay extra for a console I won't use, and MS loses money on subsidizing unused hardware.

Why are people assuming the Windows and XBox One versions will differ only in connector?

Kinect 1 was an add-on for the XBox 360. That means everything particular to Kinect had to be in the Kinect itself, for example some video processing capability. USB, after all, is a sucky interface for video transfer, and the XBox 360 had no particular capability to do the processing required by Kinect anyways.

Kinect 2 is an integrated component of XBox One, so more of its processing is almost certainly offloaded into the GPU or other components of the XBox One console. Surely this will be cheaper than having separate (and substantial) RAM and processing inside the Kinect. But obviously the Kinect for PCs cannot take the same approach.

Granted, I have no direct knowledge and am just reasoning this out. But if you're designing the console and sensor together it's hard to imagine it won't be cheaper to have a deeper integration of computing resources needed.

No the Kinect for 360 offloaded everything, I heard a developer say it required at most 15% overhead on the console. That is a big part of the reason for the input lag being so wildly poor is some games, and simply noticeable in others.

The XBox One Kinect produces massively more data than the first generation, starting with the upgrade from VGA to 1080p video. USB 2 must have added quite a bit of latency to the XBox 360 Kinect, and isn't even an option for the XBox One.

Because Microsoft has a vision where the Kinect is always and forever hooked up to the XBone, so allowing it to be used on a PC wouldn't make sense. It would break your console. So instead they're going to make one for a PC that you can buy that won't leave a XBone orphaned when you try to use it that way.

Also, Kinect for Windows runs the IR at 640x480. The Xbox Kinect runs at 320x240 (even though its sensor is 640x480) because the Xbox360 does not have sufficient USB bandwidth to handle 4x audio streams, and 2x VGA 60fps streams.(in theory, the Xbox can do just under 40MB/sec over USB2, but in practice, it's only getting half that).

Kinect 2 for Windows requires USB3 because its cameras are high def, including the time-of-flight one.

"Original article says they're going to release 2 different Kinects; one for Windows and one for XBox One... but hey, let's form opinions based on headlines and cherry picking quotes!"

I think you need to look up what "compartmentalize" means.

He didn't say anything about them not releasing a Kinect for Windows. He just pointed out that you now need two separate but similar devices to solve a problem that used to be covered with a single device.

..to shoot themselves in the ass with their desire to compartmentalize everything. One reason the Kinect was such a runaway success was the fact that people thought of doing imaginative things with it and stretching its operational boundaries.

Original article says they're going to release 2 different Kinects; one for Windows and one for XBox One... but hey, let's form opinions based on headlines and cherry picking quotes!

Simple.. sure I can buy a windows model. But, what if I already own an xbone. Shouldn't I be able to use that kinect for tinkering, robotics, teledildonics, or whatever else? No, instead I have to pony up more money. Yay Ballmer.

The people doing the most impressive/innovative things with the Kinect are research institutions and startups. Sensors like the original Kinect used to cost in excess of $5000 - $10000. I've seen some as high as $70,000 which are not as nice as the Kinect and don't offer the same developer resources and community support. At $199 they were a complete steal. Sensors like the Kinect 2 simply do not exist today, and several that are slated for release (which still don't match its capabilities) still run in excess of a grand.

With that in mind, the $399 Kinect for Windows is still a complete steal. It's *the* most innovative and cheapest sensor for robotics, my field, period. The time of flight capabilities they added to the Kinect 2 are unheard of for under $6000. The resolution is unheard of for any price. I will be the first one in line to buy a PC compatible kinect for my robotics research, and I'll be smiling all the way home TYVM.

Your computer was ASSEMBLED in TX. The motherboards and all the components are made in the Far East, mostly China. You're part of the "problem" whether you want to admit it or not. (I don't think there is a "problem" though)

Your computer was ASSEMBLED in TX. The motherboards and all the components are made in the Far East, mostly China. You're part of the "problem" whether you want to admit it or not. (I don't think there is a "problem" though)

Why do you assume that to be the case? Intel have Fab sites in Oregon; Arizona; Ireland; Israel, Samsung manufacture chips in Austin...Hell even Sony Manufacture in Wales (They make the Pi:). The reality the measure of manufacture is not to make every part....manufacturing does not work like that:) A complex device can be made from thousands of parts...here is your Car anaology;) http://abcnews.go.com/WN/MadeInAmerica/page/made-america-car-american-made-13795239 [go.com]

Looking at your posting history, I'm guessing that you are a Microsoft employee. If this is true, then you really should be disclosing this fact. If not, then you are a very passionate Microsoft fan, and should be getting paid for your constant adulation!

Sadly, the pay scale for "useful idiots" has never been that good, no matter what cause they espouse. It's why so many people who protest in favor of benefits for the wealthy couldn't themselves be mistaken for wealthy in a windowless coal cellar at midnight.

..to shoot themselves in the ass with their desire to compartmentalize everything. One reason the Kinect was such a runaway success was the fact that people thought of doing imaginative things with it and stretching its operational boundaries.

My Kinect is gathering dust. It was novel and interesting at first, but now it feels mostly pointless and gimmicky.

I think it sucks that Microsoft is going to force people to buy a Kinect with the Xbone.

Doesn't the computer version have a more near sighted camera? You probably don't want a deep a field of focus for something you are going to use sitting at your desktop so it would likely be a different device you'd want anyways.

I agree, the 4 USB lines are bound to be in the connector. I believe the original kinect connector also had lines for extra power, and other useful stuff. There are some legitimate reasons for a new connector, but lock-in sure seems like a major factor. Adapting to a PC USB should be easy.

The PC Kinect will use USB 3.0, no word on power delivery, but it could be through said USB 3.0 connection. The Xbox One version won't be very different, I guess, but they might complicate things with different protocols and out of spec stuff on the Xbox One.

I guess we'll quickly know if they just used a proprietary connector and kept everything else.

Indeed - so is entrepreneurship. I'm sure some Chinese cable producer is gearing up right now.Why the heck MS need to go to an additional expense just to upset their customers eludes me...unless, of course, the windows/USB version will be much more expensive? FTA the only way to get it (so far) is via a 399 'developers kit' bundle...madness...

Of course the real stupidity is that the vast majority of people would never had transferred the thing between two devices anyway

Paper products are one of the few things we still make here. TP in particular is often made out of pretty nice trees, because they make pretty nice asswipe. Too bad we don't just have bidets, which get your asshole cleaner than rubbing it with disintegrating paper anyway.

I'm glad to hear that the new Kinect will have proprietary connectors. It saves me from the worry of somehow missing the Microsoft logo and accidentally plugging one into my PC instead of throwing it into the trash after smashing it with a sledgehammer and soaking it in a bucket of salt water.

I'm a big game fan, but I will not touch an xbone or any of it's evil peripherals.

I remember a few years ago, reading Cory Doctorow's Little Brother and thinking it was an overwrought bit of dystopian fiction. Now it

I have good news for you: The privacy problems with Kinect are related to the software, not the hardware or the firmware. Hobbyists and roboticists can use Kinect without fear of sending pictures of your peepee to Microsoft.

There are some differences between the PC version and the Xbox version. The PC version has "upgraded" firmware that allows for gesture recognition at closer proximities. Also, its about $100 more than the Xbox Kinect.

Just thinking out loud: The Xbox Kinect might be more (or less) than a Windows Kinect with an oddball connecter. Its possible that some of the Windows Kinect firmware functions have been moved into the Xbox and the Xbox Kinect lacks those functions. And can't be upgraded.

The existing Kinect already does most of the processing on the 360, and not in the Kinect. That's why Kinect games will always suck compared to non-Kinect games. I suspect this is true of the new unit as well, otherwise it would simply be expensive to produce.

For those of us who worked with Kinect, we know very well all of it's limitations. It's a promising technology but it's still very green and far from what it is advertised as. It pretty much only works if you are looking to the camera and waving your hands and legs. Any attempt to turn sideways or even put your hands together completely confuses the heck out of it (check their technology demo videos, such scenarios are all purposely avoided). There's even open source implementations of the pose recognition that work better (though they need calibration).
By making it XB1 only hackers will not be able to see how much it really improved (likely not much judging by their videos). So far from what I can tell, only the APIs improved so it's easier to get data from it (full matrices, motion vectors and strain, which you could easily compute yourself anyway), and some stuff was added to detect heart and blood rate (likely based on this MIT stuff [mit.edu]. That's pretty much it.

This stuff has been done in labs for years though. I work with something akin to a Kinect (it has a SCSI-2 adapter, that's how old it is) and it does the exact same thing, it can detect movements as small as 1mm, it even looks like a Kinect only it's 3 camera's and laser equipment are about 2 feet apart each (the entire thing is a 2m (wide) x 20cm (tall) x 40 cm (depth) square tube) and it needs an entire room dedicated to the movement. Scaling that down is fairly simple and as you said, there are open impl

With the Leap Motion coming out soon, I wonder if its sales will put pressure on Microsoft release a PC adapter (or at least a cheap version of the Kinect for PCs). A link about the Leap Motion for those who haven't heard of it: https://www.leapmotion.com/ [leapmotion.com]

Mouse and keyboard will do me as input devices until the day I die, maybe a little bit of touchscreen and some voice input for the future to waken the good-for-nothing idle teenage carer to empty my bag.

I'm buggered if I'm going to start deleting words in vi by lifting one leg in the air and gyrating my plastic hips three-times in a clockwise motion.

Maybe the Kinect can be programmed to identify your age by the onion on your belt (as that was the style of the time) and automatically, for example, increase the font size on your screen. Stuff like that.

I'm sure the people who got into plugging their Kinects into things other than the X-box that it was marketed for will not be stopped by a mere connector. If it's still electrically USB then no doubt they will just cut the end off and attach a real USB plug. Those who still want to use it on the XBox can always attach a USB socket to the connector that they cut off to make an adapter to go back to the XBox.

Some time after we see articles about people doing this all over Hackaday cheap Chinese XBox connect

Microsoft intentionally would tie the kinect to the Xbox One, because they know by forcing the inclusion of the device will likely create an overabundance of kinect devices that are not being used that people will want to get rid of. If they are also trying to sell them for PC, they had to make them non-interchangeable as otherwise the cheap secondhand marke that will come into being due to the forced inclusion with the Xbox One will generate would totally cannibalize all their potential

I'm not justifying MS, but the optics are probably going to be different. For a PC you want your focal planebeing rather close (1-3', perhaps), with a Xbox Whanot, you want it substantially further out. It would probably be a pain to include the hardware to allow it to switch focal plane, since that would require more advanced lenses with moving parts, and smarter firmware to drive it and differentiate between optimal planes, basically standard autofocus, which is a actually a pretty complex trick. Given