the funny thing is that these scholars are not credible when they root for the Anatolian or South of Caucasus thesis ( personally I do not believe in both by the way ) but they are credible to many "keyboard warrior" when they speak about 90% replacement in britain or the "iberian massacre".....seems that here some kind of a racial bias is involved.......

09-02-19, 22:57

ToBeOrNotToBe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saetrus

Wang et. al:

Reply: We’re afraid that this might be a misunderstanding. There is indeed very limited gene flow between the Caucasus and the steppe groups (apart from the examples highlighted). However, we have based our PIE-related speculations on the observation that the CHG/Iranian (green) ancestry component is increasing already during the Eneolithic north of the Caucasus. This led us to propose that this might be the actual ‘tracer dye’ of an early PIE spread, which could then also accommodate the spread of PIE south of the mountain range where this ancestry component also rises in frequency resulting in a relatively homogenised dual ancestry (Anatolian + Iranian farming-related ancestry) in Chalcolithic times (see also brown arrow in Figure 2).

Well then the guy writing the article was wrong, my bad. I agree that the increase in CHG corresponds to at least on the Steppe the origin of Late-PIE.

09-02-19, 22:57

Silesian

The party is just getting started. The models are using CHG/Iranian tracer dye theories.
I think certain ideas might change in the future when they model Yamnaya and use Dzudzuana-26000YBP+/-​[ancestral to both [CHG&Iran]/and or related clusters from the Caucasus. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

09-02-19, 23:17

Angela

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silesian

The party is just getting started. The models are using CHG/Iranian tracer dye theories.
I think certain ideas might change in the future when they model Yamnaya and use Dzudzuana-26000YBP+/-​[ancestral to both [CHG&Iran]/and or related clusters from the Caucasus. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

That's a good point.

However, the only way I can see this relating to PIE is if we're talking about some sort of movement of people from the south onto the steppe during the Eneolithic.

All the other possibilities are surely too old, aren't they?

09-02-19, 23:30

ToBeOrNotToBe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

That's a good point.

However, the only way I can see this relating to PIE is if we're talking about some sort of movement of people from the south onto the steppe during the Eneolithic.

All the other possibilities are surely too old, aren't they?

The Anatolian-Late-PIE split probably took place in the Late Neolithic if I had to guess, as it looks to be before the invention of the wheel. If that's right, that kind of ruins my Kura-Araxes idea for Anatolian.

09-02-19, 23:32

Silesian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

That's a good point.

However, the only way I can see this relating to PIE is if we're talking about some sort of movement of people from the south onto the steppe during the Eneolithic.

All the other possibilities are surely too old, aren't they?

I can't help but wonder sometimes.
Rhetorical questions for important PIE words-located within ancient Dzudzuana 26000+/- YBP[and by extension Yamnaya] zone

The number ‘four’ is reconstructed as *otxo- in Proto-Kartvelian, and this is generally taken to be a loan from Proto-Indo-European (cf. Klimov 1998:145—146; Fähnrich—Sardshweladse 1995:269; Gamkrelidze —Ivanov 1995.I:775 [Gamkrelidze—Ivanov reconstruct Proto-Kartvelian *(o)ŝt(o)-]).

If you are going this route then first wine was made in Shulaveri-Shomu Culture. Where is Olympus Mons ? :embarassed:

10-02-19, 14:45

Olympus Mons

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anfänger

If you are going this route then first wine was made in Shulaveri-Shomu Culture. Where is Olympus Mons ? :embarassed:

:)

Angela is working her way to ban me infraction after infraction.... Where is maciamo?

10-02-19, 14:49

Olympus Mons

MPI SHh is even making maps with dates... And still people "pretend not to see".
Never mind... At the right time they 'knew all along" and "have been saying it since" whatever.

10-02-19, 15:10

Angela

Sorry, duplicate.

10-02-19, 15:49

etrusco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympus Mons

MPI SHh is even making maps with dates... And still people "pretend not to see".

Never mind... At the right time they 'knew all alomg" and "have been saying it since" whatever.

Where I can find them Olympus?

10-02-19, 16:53

Olympus Mons

Quote:

Originally Posted by etrusco

Where I can find them Olympus?

you're kidding right?

- At the beginning of this thread you have a Map with dates from Johannes krauser, where he even goes as far as writing 6900 years ago instead of 7000 Years ago. Why? - because For years I have been spreading the 4900BC as the year PIE started to spread from the south caucasus, because its the date the Shulaveri suddenly vanished from south Caucasus. 4900BC... he goes and writes 6900 years ago. Delicious.

-then there is a video next to that Map above in the thread, as if the map was not clear enough, where Gray starts the story at 8000 years ago, the 6th millennium, in south Caucasus.---errr, who lived in the south Caucasus during the 6th millennium? it starts with SHU...

- Do you know how much grievances I had to take over the years, and even recently here at Eupedia by some "Linguistics experts" that fall short of call me an idiot because PIE can never be that earlier? --- well MPI in the voice of Gray himself is saying it out loud in the video, isn't he??

10-02-19, 17:02

markod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympus Mons

you're kidding right?

- At the beginning of this thread you have a Map with dates from Johannes krauser, where he even goes as far as writing 6900 years ago instead of 7000 Years ago. Why? - because For years I have been spreading the 4900BC as the year PIE started to spread from the south caucasus, because its the date the Shulaveri suddenly vanished from south Caucasus. 4900BC... he goes and writes 6900 years ago. Delicious.

-then there is a video next to that Map above in the thread, as if the map was not clear enough, where Gray starts the story at 8000 years ago, the 6th millennium, in south Caucasus.---errr, who lived in the south Caucasus during the 6th millennium? it starts with SHU...

- Do you know how much grievances I had to take over the years, and even recently here at Eupedia by some "Linguistics experts" that fall short of call me an idiot because PIE can never be that earlier? --- well MPI in the voice of Gray himself is saying it out loud in the video, isn't he??

That's really a very specific date. I never noticed.

I do think such a delay between Indo-Hittite and LPIE is problematic though, while a general Neolithic timeframe isn't necessairly. Perhaps something like the Ivanov model wherein only Balto-Slavic spreads from the steppe should be reconsidered. That would mean Greek, Germanic etc. from West Asia.

10-02-19, 17:07

Olympus Mons

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anfänger

If you are going this route then first wine was made in Shulaveri-Shomu Culture. Where is Olympus Mons ? :embarassed:

the latest buzz word should really be Honey, Medhu.
University of toronto, which is working in SHulaveri and Gadrachilli, is saying they will publish something later how the shulaveri were apicultures, so, honey harvesters.

10-02-19, 17:10

etrusco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympus Mons

you're kidding right?

- At the beginning of this thread you have a Map with dates from Johannes krauser, where he even goes as far as writing 6900 years ago instead of 7000 Years ago. Why? - because For years I have been spreading the 4900BC as the year PIE started to spread from the south caucasus, because its the date the Shulaveri suddenly vanished from south Caucasus. 4900BC... he goes and writes 6900 years ago. Delicious.

-then there is a video next to that Map above in the thread, as if the map was not clear enough, where Gray starts the story at 8000 years ago, the 6th millennium, in south Caucasus.---errr, who lived in the south Caucasus during the 6th millennium? it starts with SHU...

- Do you know how much grievances I had to take over the years, and even recently here at Eupedia by some "Linguistics experts" that fall short of call me an idiot because PIE can never be that earlier? --- well MPI in the voice of Gray himself is saying it out loud in the video, isn't he??

You're getting me wrong.....just I was thinking of something more detailed or new data, just that.

10-02-19, 17:29

Pip

Certainly, EHG levels in Armenia declined massively over the Kura-Araxes period, only to rebound as it came to an end.
There are signs in autosomal DNA that people with a similar profile moved along or across the Black Sea and admixed with Ukrainian Steppe dwellers during the 4th millennium BC.
What is to say they did not take their language (or features of it) with them as they moved out?

10-02-19, 17:30

Olympus Mons

Quote:

Originally Posted by markod

That's really a very specific date. I never noticed.

I do think such a delay between Indo-Hittite and LPIE is problematic though, while a general Neolithic timeframe isn't necessairly. Perhaps something like the Ivanov model wherein only Balto-Slavic spreads from the steppe should be reconsidered. That would mean Greek, Germanic etc. from West Asia.

Indeed. Very precise date. And on top of it, the hypothesis of a south Caucasus migration to Steppe by these dates is called the Iain Mathieson 2018 hypothesis, the same Mathieson that, by the few times he himself engage Eurogenes, must have watched me in endless battles in Eurogenes defending my Shulaverian Hypothesis. Really? Iain Mathieson Hypothesis?
And just give it enough months and this crap of Krauser 4900BC is going to show its ugly face. Oh "they knew all along", "look at our slide" ...

Split of indo-hittite by 4800BC? dont think is problematic.
Can you point me to a good Ivanov summary? interesting. Because see my slide 8 (4000bc) at https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/ --- its not news that there was a Gulmenita-Hamangia-pre-cucuteni swift move of people that was not much later seen engaging the western steppes of Ukraine. Several groups were PIE.

10-02-19, 17:33

Olympus Mons

Quote:

Originally Posted by etrusco

You're getting me wrong.....just I was thinking of something more detailed or new data, just that.

Yes, that I truly think there is kindof an embargo. Even Wang et al was from 4500BC, weird how Neolithic South Caucasus and extensive 4500BC-3900bC south balkans are being saved for "later" papers. Lets see if it isnt all a scripted narrative.

10-02-19, 18:17

Megalophias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympus Mons

Do you know how much grievances I had to take over the years, and even recently here at Eupedia by some "Linguistics experts" that fall short of call me an idiot because PIE can never be that earlier? --- well MPI in the voice of Gray himself is saying it out loud in the video, isn't he??

Gray himself (et al) has been saying that since 2003. This is a slightly adjusted version of his 2014 scheme. Lots of people disagreed with him then and lots of people still do.

10-02-19, 18:23

Saetrus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympus Mons

you're kidding right?

- At the beginning of this thread you have a Map with dates from Johannes krauser, where he even goes as far as writing 6900 years ago instead of 7000 Years ago. Why?

... and they make fun of me for watching Ancient Aliens, ...
I doubt the Conspiracy Theory.

10-02-19, 19:35

bicicleur

Quote:

Originally Posted by etrusco

the funny thing is that these scholars are not credible when they root for the Anatolian or South of Caucasus thesis ( personally I do not believe in both by the way ) but they are credible to many "keyboard warrior" when they speak about 90% replacement in britain or the "iberian massacre".....seems that here some kind of a racial bias is involved.......

it's your right to believe what you want, but you don't have the right to call those who think otherwise racists
and please, stick to the subject of this thread

Fair enough.
However this image does not make 6900 BP any centrality... but it answers the date figure itself and not 5000BC I give you that. its important to note he published 20 dates, as an agriculture PIE origin where divergence occur 8700 year ago for Anatolian, 7900, 7300, 6900, 6500, 6100... What made them choose 4900 now? what made them make 8000BP and 6900BP? I don't think is a coincidence. 2019 papers will show either way. Remember this exchange if there is a paper published specifically for Neolithic south Caucasus that proves me right.