But keep digging. After your scornful reply to Kestra, you lost all privileges for a polite conversation.

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I'm sorry. I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings.

Clearly this thread has made some feel singled out which was never the intention.

But in this thread, I've been insinuated "limited in perspective," "condescending," and "unable to take criticism."

If these are undesirable traits to those citing them - then look no further than the mirror and overcome these failings in yourselves.

This topic - is not about "you."

If there's nothing wrong with you - there must be something wrong with the universe!

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I don't feel singled out or hurt. I was letting you know how you are coming across because your choice of words and defensiveness are obscuring any other points you are trying to make. You've also completely ignored some valid discussion points and instead reacted defensively, responding to people that you feel are attacking you.

Yes, I told you that you were coming off as condescending and narrow-minded. I'm not above reproach myself so I'm not sure why you're telling us to look inward. My flaws are many but not particularly relevant here.

I believe that tsq in particular made some good points. This question that you're asking has come up time and time again throughout history. Popular music shouldn't be used to indict our society with cultural decline.

There's more of everything now, and it's all more accessible, so naturally there's more crappy art. There's more good art as well, if people stop whining about what their television places in front of them and go find it.

It's always been the case that if you just allow the media to spoonfeed you your entertainment, you'll end up with the blandest most universally inoffensive nonsense available. Mainstream media is about pleasing as many people as possible with the same product. For every Pink Floyd, there's ten Bay City Rollers.

There's more of everything now, and it's all more accessible, so naturally there's more crappy art. There's more good art as well, if people stop whining about what their television places in front of them and go find it.

It's always been the case that if you just allow the media to spoonfeed you your entertainment, you'll end up with the blandest most universally inoffensive nonsense available. Mainstream media is about pleasing as many people as possible with the same product. For every Pink Floyd, there's ten Bay City Rollers.

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This. It's like reading the comments underneath a YouTube video. For every legitimate, intelligent post, there are 30 posts saying "this video is gay" and "tHis SUXXXXX!!!!!1."

Culture hasn't declined. Stupid people just have a much easier time being heard.

And yeah, maybe the internet has made it easier for random "mediocre" people to get their 15 minutes of fame, but it's ultimately fleeting. People might remember the Double Rainbow video, but does anybody remember the guy's name?

On the flip side, the internet has also made it easier for truly talented people to get themselves out there. Instead of hoping to meet the right people at the right time, they can get their work out to a much larger audience without needing to be "discovered."

I'm curious about that myself. Also, you've again ignored the points I raised, Triskellion -- are you not interested in discussing the fact that the question you ask is asked in earnest by every generation, and yet we've been pretty consistently progressing rather than collapsing? Are you not at least a bit concerned that, maybe it is more than a tad hypocritical of you to complain about having your own narrow perspective highlighted whilst claiming again and again that people "don't know the difference. They don't know the difference." Again, how old are you? How do the five years, ten years, or twenty five years you might have on some of us posting here give you more authority to speak on cultural trends spanning millennia? Upon serious examination how do you not see the arrogance of such a position?

The icing on the Hypocrisy Cake is the fact that you listened to only two of Kanye West's songs before coming to your conclusions! I happen to like a lot of his music -- but maybe I just don't know the difference.

This actually reminds me of a friend I have. He and I are the same age, and he is the biggest music snob I've ever met. He refuses to listen to anything mainstream because he "studied music" and has a better understanding of it than normal people. He'd rather sit down and analyze the rhyme and meter of a song and appreciate the mathematics of the notes. I just want something with a catchy beat than I can sing along to.

I played some songs on the jukebox the other night, and he immediately judged me. He couldn't believe I actually liked the songs I was playing. I said, "I like them because they're fun." He replied, "Sure, they're fun, but they're not good."

Well, taste in music is a contentious issue. I'm a bit of a cultural snob myself but I usually succeed in reining myself in. I can understand your friend's pleasure at the form of music, the mathematics as you put it. If music is also able to stimulate me intellectually it's an additional thrill for me.

Well, taste in music is a contentious issue. I'm a bit of a cultural snob myself but I usually succeed in reining myself in. I can understand your friend's pleasure at the form of music, the mathematics as you put it. If music is also able to stimulate me intellectually it's an additional thrill for me.

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Which is totally fine. People enjoy things for all sorts of reasons. What's irritating is being treated like some kind of dullard for not enjoying music on a purely intellectual level.

There are three times when I listen to music:
1) when I'm driving
2) when I'm at the gym
3) when I'm bartending

In those instances, I'm usually focused on other things. I never listen to music just to listen to music. It is nearly always secondary to something else going on.

Or in the example from the OP: comedians. It doesn't matter why I think something is funny. If a comedian says something and I laugh, he's doing his job. I don't care how long he slaved away trying to write the perfect joke.

This actually reminds me of a friend I have. He and I are the same age, and he is the biggest music snob I've ever met. He refuses to listen to anything mainstream because he "studied music" and has a better understanding of it than normal people. He'd rather sit down and analyze the rhyme and meter of a song and appreciate the mathematics of the notes. I just want something with a catchy beat than I can sing along to.

I played some songs on the jukebox the other night, and he immediately judged me. He couldn't believe I actually liked the songs I was playing. I said, "I like them because they're fun." He replied, "Sure, they're fun, but they're not good."

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Introduce him to a band called Battles. They are Math Rock, and completely awesome. That should keep him occupied for a while.

There's more of everything now, and it's all more accessible, so naturally there's more crappy art. There's more good art as well, if people stop whining about what their television places in front of them and go find it.

It's always been the case that if you just allow the media to spoonfeed you your entertainment, you'll end up with the blandest most universally inoffensive nonsense available. Mainstream media is about pleasing as many people as possible with the same product. For every Pink Floyd, there's ten Bay City Rollers.

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Bingo. Pretty much what I've tried to say. If one only ever follows mainstream media, then yeah, one would be disappointed. Discovering something one likes often means digging for it, digging for that special gem. Since everyone has different tastes, those gems will be different to everyone. That's not to say all mainstream is bad though, it just means mainstream is never going to dig as deep as one would like. And then there's the fact that something that isn't to your liking might be somebody's most favourite thing ever.

I played some songs on the jukebox the other night, and he immediately judged me. He couldn't believe I actually liked the songs I was playing. I said, "I like them because they're fun." He replied, "Sure, they're fun, but they're not good."

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My least favorite comment on music! People (with pleasure, it seems) wipe out whole genres with that line.

Popular culture is about more than young people, so the Generation Gap stuff is missing the point. It may be that the declining attention span of many young people contributes to the superficiality of much entertainment, but it also may be that the nostalgia of many older people contributes to the stagnation of culture. It also misses the point of cultural cycles-- as I mentioned earlier, periods of innovation are followed by periods of stagnation (or stability, if you prefer). Evolutionary biologists call it punctuated equilibrium.

There's more of everything now, and it's all more accessible, so naturally there's more crappy art. There's more good art as well, if people stop whining about what their television places in front of them and go find it.

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Unfortunately, that's what most people do. But you make a good point-- with the increased availability of more esoteric work on the Internet, the mainstream outlets are more motivated to shoot for the lowest common denominator.

It's always been the case that if you just allow the media to spoonfeed you your entertainment, you'll end up with the blandest most universally inoffensive nonsense available. Mainstream media is about pleasing as many people as possible with the same product. For every Pink Floyd, there's ten Bay City Rollers.

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Exactly (not that those kinds of artists can't be entertaining), which is what is exciting about modern opportunities for independent creators. How are you making out with your stuff? Also, do you have any other recommendations (I'll look for the Battles)?

Well, taste in music is a contentious issue. I'm a bit of a cultural snob myself but I usually succeed in reining myself in. I can understand your friend's pleasure at the form of music, the mathematics as you put it. If music is also able to stimulate me intellectually it's an additional thrill for me.

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I'd say that's being an elitist, rather than a snob. High standards are good. What snobs don't understand is that it's okay to like something even if it's not good, just like it's okay to dislike something even if it is good. Taste and personal aesthetics always enter into it. But you just have to be aware of which is which.

^Again, just because you personally have failed to find the great art and music of a younger generation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And it's just untruthful to claim that the pop culture of the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s was any deeper than that of today. Also, high standards do not equal snobbery. The difference between having high standards and being a snob is the difference between bing refined and being a dick.