Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here.

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?

For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.

more clear now?

But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.

1. Bad Art offends..Marc Chagall- “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos. I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable. Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....

1. "Bad art offends." - Only if you let it offend you. But why should you be offended? No, I'm not asking this just to be difficult?

2. So what if it is Charles Manson? Why should we let an image of him offend us? Merely complaining that you have to actually explain why this offends you isn't a good answer.

Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here.

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?

For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.

more clear now?

But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.

1. Bad Art offends..Marc Chagall- “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos. I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable. Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....

1. "Bad art offends." - Only if you let it offend you. But why should you be offended? No, I'm not asking this just to be difficult?

2. So what if it is Charles Manson? Why should we let an image of him offend us? Merely complaining that you have to actually explain why this offends you isn't a good answer.

3. Who really cares about Mentos, anyway?

1. Having no standards leaves one open to falling for all sorts of rubbish.....this applies to both 'belief systems' (which i am sure you would agree with) and other things....like art, music...etc. Have no standards and you are listening to atonal rubbish.....

2. Tattoo of Jeffrey Dahmer? Hitler? Gacey? These things should be offensive to humanity. It glorifies something so utterly devoid of good.

3. I care...mentos are nice...and to have a serial killer as their spokestatoo....ugh.

Logged

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here.

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?

For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.

more clear now?

But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.

1. Bad Art offends..Marc Chagall- “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos. I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable. Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....

1. "Bad art offends." - Only if you let it offend you. But why should you be offended? No, I'm not asking this just to be difficult?

2. So what if it is Charles Manson? Why should we let an image of him offend us? Merely complaining that you have to actually explain why this offends you isn't a good answer.

3. Who really cares about Mentos, anyway?

1. Having no standards leaves one open to falling for all sorts of rubbish.....this applies to both 'belief systems' (which i am sure you would agree with) and other things....like art, music...etc. Have no standards and you are listening to atonal rubbish.....

2. Tattoo of Jeffrey Dahmer? Hitler? Gacey? These things should be offensive to humanity. It glorifies something so utterly devoid of good.

3. I care...mentos are nice...and to have a serial killer as their spokestatoo....ugh.

1. I agree that some art is indeed rubbish, but that doesn't mean I'm required to be offended by it.

2. You're still arguing that images of mass murderers should cause offense as if this is some kind of given. That doesn't answer my fundamental question: Why?

3. Feel however you want about Mentos. I really don't care about them, for I never eat them.

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.

I put no words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you've, at last, sort of answered.

Really, it does get rather tiresome to see you turn so much of what people say into an intellectual game for your own amusement.

LBK, you should know by now that I am an opponent of unwarranted and excessive dogmatism. This isn't an intellectual game for me.

"Unwarranted and excessive dogmatism" is what you call my expression of disapproval of an image of a cheesy Jesus holding a packet of Mentos, and my expression that Christians should be offended by it? Oh, my.

The fact that this image happens to be a tattoo is almost beside the point. If it were a painting or drawing, this would not change the nature of the image.

I've already answered your questions. Go back and read my posts, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to score rhetorical points.

No, you have not.

Allow me to remind you: Reply #308.

So, now, how about answering some of my questions?

EDIT: and the questions asked of you by DeniseDenise, out of common courtesy?

1. You only answered the question about why we should see the image as a Mentos Jesus. You did not answer my question about why we should find this offensive except with a loaded question of your own. That's not an answer.2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

You did not answer my question about why we should find this offensive except with a loaded question of your own. That's not an answer.

If you cannot fathom why reducing the Son of God to a cheesy, kitschy cartoon character with a tube of mints in his hand should be offensive and disrespectful to those who call themselves Christian, then your problem is much bigger than I thought.

Well, can we at least all agree on one thing?: Tattoos of pigs and pigs with tattoos are anathema!

Selam

Logged

"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Well, can we at least all agree on one thing?: Tattoos of pigs and pigs with tattoos are anathema!

Selam

It's all in the declaration of intent:

And the steadiness of hand:

Logged

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion. However I was not given the courtesy of being able to see your position at all.

I cannot find your answers satisfactory or unsatisfactory, due to their simply being absent. It does not bother me per se, since that clearly indicates you don't have an actual answer to give.

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.

Have a lovely day.

Logged

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

And the Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to all the congregation of the people of Israel, You shall be holy; for I the Lord your God am holy

Matthew 5:

Quote

17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

But then, Acts 15:

Quote

28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

So, IDK. I'm not saying I won't ever get one, but I'm beyond the high school/college age of wanting moronic tattoos. Also, I don't think God will say, "Sweet tats, bro," when he comes to judge the living and the dead. What I can interpret from this is if you're a Jew who comes to believe in Christ, keep upholding the Law. If you're a Gentile, the Law has been relaxed for you so that you can keep to a few major points.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:09:13 AM by hecma925 »

Logged

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion.

Yes, you have given answers to my questions, but I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to elicit from you. You keep giving basically the same unsatisfactory answer but in different ways. You've made the assertion that it's essentially self-evident that the glorification of a mass murderer in a tattoo should cause Christians offense, and all you've done in engaging my questions is repeat this assertion. But you keep missing the point. Why should we be offended by anything a person decides to have tattooed on his body? What good do we accomplish by being offended by such petty matters? Is it really that important?

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.

Misunderstanding me is one thing, but making up stories about me is another thing entirely--I advise you, then, to stop doing that. I was not posting here merely for my amusement. You see, Denise, the battle against unwarranted dogmatism is not a game for me, as many on this forum will tell you. As such, I engage debates frequently not to assert dogmas of my own but to hold up a mirror to the other participants. You said things on this thread that communicated the message that you cannot see how any true Christian can possibly NOT be offended by a tattoo "glorifying" a mass murderer like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. You judged me as being somehow deficient in my Christian faith and in need of prayer because I questioned you. Unless I have posted things to this thread that can actually be considered heresy, such as Arianism or a denial of the resurrection, what authority do you have to judge me as some kind of heretic for disagreeing with you? How does such a veiled ad hominem further clarify your reasoning?

Another mistake you and so many other people on this forum have made about me is that my questioning of your point of view automatically means that I hold a contrary point of view. No it doesn't. I merely don't like BS assertions and unnecessary dogmatism. Can I be a bit pedantic about how I confront it? Absolutely! But it doesn't mean that I don't have a position of my own or that I do have one that's opposite yours. It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion.

Yes, you have given answers to my questions, but I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to elicit from you. You keep giving basically the same unsatisfactory answer but in different ways. You've made the assertion that it's essentially self-evident that the glorification of a mass murderer in a tattoo should cause Christians offense, and all you've done in engaging my questions is repeat this assertion. But you keep missing the point. Why should we be offended by anything a person decides to have tattooed on his body? What good do we accomplish by being offended by such petty matters? Is it really that important?

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.

Misunderstanding me is one thing, but making up stories about me is another thing entirely--I advise you, then, to stop doing that. I was not posting here merely for my amusement. You see, Denise, the battle against unwarranted dogmatism is not a game for me, as many on this forum will tell you. As such, I engage debates frequently not to assert dogmas of my own but to hold up a mirror to the other participants. You said things on this thread that communicated the message that you cannot see how any true Christian can possibly NOT be offended by a tattoo "glorifying" a mass murderer like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. You judged me as being somehow deficient in my Christian faith and in need of prayer because I questioned you. Unless I have posted things to this thread that can actually be considered heresy, such as Arianism or a denial of the resurrection, what authority do you have to judge me as some kind of heretic for disagreeing with you?

Another mistake you and so many other people on this forum have made about me is that my questioning of your point of view automatically means that I hold a contrary point of view. No it doesn't. I merely don't like BS assertions and unnecessary dogmatism. Can I be a bit pedantic about how I confront it? Absolutely! But it doesn't mean that I don't have a position of my own or that I do have one that's opposite yours. It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.

In other words...you debate...just to stir trouble.....fun hobby there. If you are not stating YOUR position...you are being argumentative to be argumentative. Period.

And I did not question or Judge your Christianity at all.....go back and read my actual words.

If anything....I judged your -humanity-, since even the Godless and the non-Judeo Christians also abhor mass murders, cannibals and those who commit genocide.

Absolutely -zero- to do with Christianity at all, since I would call an athiest on glorifying those things just as much as I have called you on -accepting- the idea.

Logged

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

to participate in a 'discussion board, without ever showing your own personal self...some glimpse, but to exist there merely to refute any and every point made by others......without ever proposing your point....has got to be a lonely place'

The main joy most here get is -the interaction- with others....revealing parts of who we are...what brought us both to Orthodoxy and to the board...etc...

Even if it is a controlled release of info....its still 'getting to know people'.....as opposed to existing here to tell people they are wrong.

If that's all one does....why bother.

Logged

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion.

Yes, you have given answers to my questions, but I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to elicit from you. You keep giving basically the same unsatisfactory answer but in different ways. You've made the assertion that it's essentially self-evident that the glorification of a mass murderer in a tattoo should cause Christians offense, and all you've done in engaging my questions is repeat this assertion. But you keep missing the point. Why should we be offended by anything a person decides to have tattooed on his body? What good do we accomplish by being offended by such petty matters? Is it really that important?

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.

Misunderstanding me is one thing, but making up stories about me is another thing entirely--I advise you, then, to stop doing that. I was not posting here merely for my amusement. You see, Denise, the battle against unwarranted dogmatism is not a game for me, as many on this forum will tell you. As such, I engage debates frequently not to assert dogmas of my own but to hold up a mirror to the other participants. You said things on this thread that communicated the message that you cannot see how any true Christian can possibly NOT be offended by a tattoo "glorifying" a mass murderer like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. You judged me as being somehow deficient in my Christian faith and in need of prayer because I questioned you. Unless I have posted things to this thread that can actually be considered heresy, such as Arianism or a denial of the resurrection, what authority do you have to judge me as some kind of heretic for disagreeing with you?

Another mistake you and so many other people on this forum have made about me is that my questioning of your point of view automatically means that I hold a contrary point of view. No it doesn't. I merely don't like BS assertions and unnecessary dogmatism. Can I be a bit pedantic about how I confront it? Absolutely! But it doesn't mean that I don't have a position of my own or that I do have one that's opposite yours. It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.

In other words...you debate...just to stir trouble.....fun hobby there. If you are not stating YOUR position...you are being argumentative to be argumentative. Period.

And I did not question or Judge your Christianity at all.....go back and read my actual words.

If anything....I judged your -humanity-, since even the Godless and the non-Judeo Christians also abhor mass murders, cannibals and those who commit genocide.

Absolutely -zero- to do with Christianity at all, since I would call an athiest on glorifying those things just as much as I have called you on -accepting- the idea.

1. The mirror I hold up shows a lot, such as how you will believe the fictions you create about me rather than the truth I tell about myself. Please don't do that.2. Whether you judged my Christianity or my humanity doesn't matter. You judged me against standards you created. You have no authority to do that.3. You evidently didn't read a single thing I said about about my point of view, for nowhere did I ever glorify any mass murderers. That is something you continue to read into my questions even though I have repeated to you that my questions are not to be read as advocating a point of view contrary to yours.

It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.

Hoist by your own petard.

This is a forum dedicated to the discussion of Orthodoxy, PtA. It is neither your personal plaything, nor is it a Toastmasters event.

I know what this forum is about. It is a forum devoted to the discussion of Orthodox Christianity, not of LBKianity. You are free to post the truth as you understand it, and I am free to challenge you on your assertions. That's how this forum works.