describing ESFjs to an INTj

The INTj I was with sent me a few text messages from a club... apparently he wants to hook up with someone but it's pretty dead there tonight.

me: Look for an ESFj. They're the ones who are loud and sociable and friendly and talk a lot with their hands.

him: but those girls intimidate me and make me want to cower and hide, im never myself to them. they only see scared traumatized me..

me: They think it's adorable. Making people feel emotionally and physically comfortable is what they're best at. They just love having someone to take care of. All they want from you is to talk about whimsical and intelligent things and appreciate the stuff they do for you, such as practical day to day shit.

Maybe it is a good thing that you posted it. It can serve as more motivation to overcome the "loser" stigma that surrounds LII types.
No chance in hell I'm going to "go out clubing" to look for a hook up; that's not my style.

Neither is this:

him: but those girls intimidate me and make me want to cower and hide, im never myself to them. they only see scared traumatized me..

Sounds like a pathetic 14 year old in junior high.
In other words,

Originally Posted by Stratiyevskaya

Robesp'er fears tax occasion for the volitional action on itself; therefore sometimes it attempts to appear by man without the weaknesses ("iron Felix"). It does not love, when they play on its weaknesses. Suffer whimperers it cannot, it does not make it possible to pity itself (it does not love cheap ethical it is special effect).

just because you are an LII doesn't mean that original quote is supposed to be acceptable, or that you are excused from having stones.

Again, I'm not advocating for LIIs to try to become players.
But I am saying they aren't excused from having a healthy level of self respect, or carrying themselves in a dignified way.

Furthermore, just because your dual is an ESE, that doesn't mean you are entitled to being clueless in the everyday world. This is no different than my criticism of shallow ESEs who shy away from thinking.

This INTj is a.... special.... one. I don't think all INTjs are like that. The idea was more about what I said than what he said, though you're right about not being entitled to being clueless in the everyday world. This one is rather autistic and can only be so good with "real world" stuff. Of course that could just be my enabling attitude when it came to him. (and he only went to a club because he was dragged out by his friends, which is not an easy task, and he was only TMing me about wanting to hook up with someone cause he was drunk)

Yes, I figured as much.
I suppose if I became dragged out with my friends, drunk, in an uncomfortbale situation and full of self pity that I would react the same way.

....

my position on the matter is unchanged, of course.

Nothing against your LII friend, I'm just holding alpha quadra to a high standard. I like alphas a lot, and I have the same probelems as most when it comes to certain type related maturities -iIncluding the blasted LII Si HA. But that doesn't mean I think they are "ok". Maybe this is just me being "the most Enneagram type 1 person on the forum", but so be it.

As for what 'you said', I think that's fine to keep in mind. I just have issues with seeing duals as crutches, or anyone else for that matter.
That's enough for this lecture.

I suppose I should have written "using duals as a crudth......" instead of 'seeing'. But it doesn't really matter.
When I was interested in relationships, that was my ideal as well: a real team, in the greatest sense of the word. I can respect that.

Re: describing ESFjs to an INTj

The INTj I was with sent me a few text messages from a club... apparently he wants to hook up with someone but it's pretty dead there tonight.

me: Look for an ESFj. They're the ones who are loud and sociable and friendly and talk a lot with their hands.

him: but those girls intimidate me and make me want to cower and hide, im never myself to them. they only see scared traumatized me..

me: They think it's adorable. Making people feel emotionally and physically comfortable is what they're best at. They just love having someone to take care of. All they want from you is to talk about whimsical and intelligent things and appreciate the stuff they do for you, such as practical day to day shit.

Very good.

UDP: looking for an hook up is a too negativist way of seeing things. "Knowing people" is better. It's not necessary to bind this to an one-night-stand or slutty behaviour, like you are doing in your mind. I do think that you might find some peace by just doing things without thinking about them, but hey, it's up to you.

Re: describing ESFjs to an INTj

Originally Posted by FDG

Very good.

UDP: looking for an hook up is a too negativist way of seeing things. "Knowing people" is better. It's not necessary to bind this to an one-night-stand or slutty behaviour, like you are doing in your mind. I do think that you might find some peace by just doing things without thinking about them, but hey, it's up to you.

That is not so - Wrong read.
My rant on self respect & dignity was about the LII's wallowing in his self-pity, not on seeing "club activities" as slutty or scandelous.

I have nothing to say about socializing at a club - I know some find that enjoyable.
I undersatnd the value of knowing people and having contacts, but social activities where I'm supposed to "go and have fun" are not appealing.

Re: describing ESFjs to an INTj

I undersatnd the value of knowing people and having contacts, but social activities where I'm supposed to "go and have fun" are not appealing.

You sound exactly like this INTj I know :S You are approaching it all the wrong way imho. Having contacts? Sounds like work :S

You aren't "supposed" to have fun. Nobody really cares about what you do. Just have fun instead of thinking that you are supposed to do it? Or maybe do soemthing else that you consider as fun? If you don't find clubbing fun, there must be something else. There are so many choices...

Re: describing ESFjs to an INTj

Originally Posted by FDG

You aren't "supposed" to have fun. Nobody really cares about what you do. Just have fun instead of thinking that you are supposed to do it? Or maybe do soemthing else that you consider as fun? If you don't find clubbing fun, there must be something else. There are so many choices...

The problems with this are --

1) for the purpose of meeting friends and a possible partner, clubbing etc are indeed what most people (especially at your age) tend to see as one of the places where "normal" people go to - either because they like it themselves or because "it's what everyone else does". In such places, people without a natural inclination for "having fun" in that atmosphere are at a clear disadvantage.

2) As for the many choices, the problem is that what some people find most fun doing does not lead to meeting people.

My point is simply that those who have a natural inclination for clubbing etc are at an advantage over those for whom it's not the case.

I don't mind interacting with people - in fact, I realize I am needing and anticipating it (E1 to E7)- but I much prefer it on a business level. Being in clubs or organizations - having a purpose - is much more preferable than typical pure entertainment.

And I have no regrets or remorse for my preferences: I choose my actions, I choose how to act, I choose my consequences. I accept that. Nothing is forced upon me. I have no self pity about who I am, nor to I wistfully long to be someone other than myself.

I've found, actually, that the most preferable place where to hit on girls is the library.

UDP, Idealism is something we share, and I know how hard can be sometimes to convive with it, and I also know how the hardship tends to be converted to a disdain for the people who do not concur on the same quest. But the same ordinary tasks can be converted into something, if not perfect, at least nearer the ideal, with the right efforts. And, with some fantasy