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I think the point is that because of Brexit border regulations and the allowed time to stay in Europe is going to be impacted. Both recreational sailors (cruisers) and racers will have to deal with this. The Brits are really royally fucking themselves in the rear: economically this is not making any sense, and lots of folks are leaving with their companies. It has all kinds of ramifications for all parts of life, including sports. Likewise universities are scrambling to avoid losing millions in grants and many researchers have already left.

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"No taxation without representation" should be a reasonably familiar rallying cry to most Americans.

The bottom line with Brexit is that the EU is a non-democratic body that sets rules that folks have to live by, but have no say in creating. If you doubt me, pick any rule you like and figure out who you might vote for to support it, or oppose it. If you can't identify a representative that you can directly impact with your vote, then you are not living in a democracy.

The EU is a benign dictatorship designed with the sole purpose of stopping Germans taking panzer rides to France via Belgium. The reason that the Europeans are so hysterical and want to "punish" the Brits for leaving is because they equate weakening the EU with an existential threat to peace in Europe. That same reason is why they have given up their own sovereignty to an unelected bureaucracy - it keeps the people well away from making stupid decisions, like cheering-on genocidal loonies gassing 6M people or invading Russia in autumn without food or warm boots. Or shooting old ladies from rooftops in Srebenica or rounding up thousands of fighting age men and shooting them in the back of the head in the forest or......

Brits have their own dis-functional governmental system that stops them doing shitty things to everyone except the Irish. They don't need to pay for an unelected Frenchman, a dithering Dutchman and a monstrous mobile cadre of grey-men who's average location is somewhere between Strasbourg and Brussels.

All that - and I'm actually a "remainer". Scooter doesn't know shit either - Brexit is not racist, it's perceived self interest.

"No taxation without representation" should be a reasonably familiar rallying cry to most Americans.

The bottom line with Brexit is that the EU is a non-democratic body that sets rules that folks have to live by, but have no say in creating. If you doubt me, pick any rule you like and figure out who you might vote for to support it, or oppose it. If you can't identify a representative that you can directly impact with your vote, then you are not living in a democracy.

The EU is a benign dictatorship designed with the sole purpose of stopping Germans taking panzer rides to France via Belgium. The reason that the Europeans are so hysterical and want to "punish" the Brits for leaving is because they equate weakening the EU with an existential threat to peace in Europe. That same reason is why they have given up their own sovereignty to an unelected bureaucracy - it keeps the people well away from making stupid decisions, like cheering-on genocidal loonies gassing 6M people or invading Russia in autumn without food or warm boots. Or shooting old ladies from rooftops in Srebenica or rounding up thousands of fighting age men and shooting them in the back of the head in the forest or......

Brits have their own dis-functional governmental system that stops them doing shitty things to everyone except the Irish. They don't need to pay for an unelected Frenchman, a dithering Dutchman and a monstrous mobile cadre of grey-men who's average location is somewhere between Strasbourg and Brussels.

All that - and I'm actually a "remainer". Scooter doesn't know shit either - Brexit is not racist, it's perceived self interest.

The European Union has a parliament. Members of the European Parliament are directly elected by citizens of the member states. This idea that the European Union imposes taxation without representation is nonsense.

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^^ Delving further into this, the UK will be making divorce payments to the EU under Prime Minister May's proposed BREXIT deal, but UK participation in the European Parliament will end, so BREXIT will truly result in a taxation-without-representation situation for the British people.

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Most of you silly cunts beating your pro Brexit chests were probably not even alive when the EU was formed and appreciate the genisus as to why. Let me guess..post Brexit you have nothing to do so start beating each other.

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"No taxation without representation" should be a reasonably familiar rallying cry to most Americans.

The bottom line with Brexit is that the EU is a non-democratic body that sets rules that folks have to live by, but have no say in creating. If you doubt me, pick any rule you like and figure out who you might vote for to support it, or oppose it. If you can't identify a representative that you can directly impact with your vote, then you are not living in a democracy.

The EU is a benign dictatorship designed with the sole purpose of stopping Germans taking panzer rides to France via Belgium. The reason that the Europeans are so hysterical and want to "punish" the Brits for leaving is because they equate weakening the EU with an existential threat to peace in Europe. That same reason is why they have given up their own sovereignty to an unelected bureaucracy - it keeps the people well away from making stupid decisions, like cheering-on genocidal loonies gassing 6M people or invading Russia in autumn without food or warm boots. Or shooting old ladies from rooftops in Srebenica or rounding up thousands of fighting age men and shooting them in the back of the head in the forest or......

Brits have their own dis-functional governmental system that stops them doing shitty things to everyone except the Irish. They don't need to pay for an unelected Frenchman, a dithering Dutchman and a monstrous mobile cadre of grey-men who's average location is somewhere between Strasbourg and Brussels.

All that - and I'm actually a "remainer". Scooter doesn't know shit either - Brexit is not racist, it's perceived self interest.

I'm confused. I went to read about the EU after you posted this, because I thought to myself "How can an enlightened society install a government that isn't elected?" It turns out the MEP's are all elected, and the final representation in parliment is based along the percentages of the popular vote, which is frankly a whole lot better than our "winner take all" system in the states.

So how do you reconcile your idea that Brits aren't represented when they get to vote just like all the other countries in the EU do?

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Brexit was a knee jerk reaction by a group of ' watch us show them fellas over there whats what' . I'm going to guess thousands had NO idea the ramifications of the yes vote.

easy yachting is the least of the problems

Millions.

There are any number of explanations, justifications, excuses and other chatter around the whole unspeakably foul morass but fundamentally it's an abject failure of just about everything that can be considered good about a modern democracy.

Words cannot describe the utter foolishness and abject stupidity of the move.

W.

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I think the point is that because of Brexit border regulations and the allowed time to stay in Europe is going to be impacted. Both recreational sailors (cruisers) and racers will have to deal with this. The Brits are really royally fucking themselves in the rear: economically this is not making any sense, and lots of folks are leaving with their companies. It has all kinds of ramifications for all parts of life, including sports. Likewise universities are scrambling to avoid losing millions in grants and many researchers have already left.

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The EU has an elected parliament, but, as stated above, its powers are limited, much to its frustration. The thing is run by the Council of Ministers who appoint the Commission and direct policy. It is hogwash to say that the Commission makes decisions, or changes its mind at a whim. They are burocrats who deliver what they are asked to.

For example, the RCD covering the marine leisure industry was requested by several national federations, who got the Commission working on it, and after much debate and consultation, we got common rules across the EU much to our relief and benefit. It even means that a US exporter only has one set of rules to apply in order to sell into 28 countries.

The EU problem is national interests and petty stubbornness refusing to allow the democratically elected representatives to have pan European powers.

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One of the three dumbest things a country has ever tried to do in the last 250 years.

the other 2 are:

1. Starting a ground invasion of Russia in Winter.

2. Attempting a ground invasion of Russia in Winter.

Brexit, and a few other recent election results are examples of the stupidity of the group. First there was Boaty McBoatface (google it if you do not know what I am talking about). Then Brexit, Trump, etc....

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The EU has an elected parliament, but, as stated above, its powers are limited, much to its frustration. The thing is run by the Council of Ministers who appoint the Commission and direct policy. It is hogwash to say that the Commission makes decisions, or changes its mind at a whim. They are burocrats who deliver what they are asked to.

For example, the RCD covering the marine leisure industry was requested by several national federations, who got the Commission working on it, and after much debate and consultation, we got common rules across the EU much to our relief and benefit. It even means that a US exporter only has one set of rules to apply in order to sell into 28 countries.

The EU problem is national interests and petty stubbornness refusing to allow the democratically elected representatives to have pan European powers.﻿

Gotcha. So the EU has

Elected Parliment - Passes laws, decides on international agreements, elects commission president and approves the Commission appointees.

European Union Council of Ministers (Head of the European Union Countries) - Appoints the Commission and tells them what to do.

European Union Commission - Bureaucrats appointed by the Council - Proposes Laws

Heads of most countries are elected. Parliment is elected. So 2 of the three are directly elected, and the third is appointed and approved by elected officials. I don't know. I still don't buy into the whole idea that people aren't represented. It actually seems similar to our house and senate system.

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Brexit, and a few other recent election results are examples of the stupidity of the group. First there was Boaty McBoatface (google it if you do not know what I am talking about). Then Brexit, Trump, etc....

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"No taxation without representation" should be a reasonably familiar rallying cry to most Americans.

The bottom line with Brexit is that the EU is a non-democratic body that sets rules that folks have to live by, but have no say in creating. If you doubt me, pick any rule you like and figure out who you might vote for to support it, or oppose it. If you can't identify a representative that you can directly impact with your vote, then you are not living in a democracy.

The EU is a benign dictatorship designed with the sole purpose of stopping Germans taking panzer rides to France via Belgium. The reason that the Europeans are so hysterical and want to "punish" the Brits for leaving is because they equate weakening the EU with an existential threat to peace in Europe. That same reason is why they have given up their own sovereignty to an unelected bureaucracy - it keeps the people well away from making stupid decisions, like cheering-on genocidal loonies gassing 6M people or invading Russia in autumn without food or warm boots. Or shooting old ladies from rooftops in Srebenica or rounding up thousands of fighting age men and shooting them in the back of the head in the forest or......

Brits have their own dis-functional governmental system that stops them doing shitty things to everyone except the Irish. They don't need to pay for an unelected Frenchman, a dithering Dutchman and a monstrous mobile cadre of grey-men who's average location is somewhere between Strasbourg and Brussels.

All that - and I'm actually a "remainer". Scooter doesn't know shit either - Brexit is not racist, it's perceived self interest.

I’m afraid a lot of it probably was racist. Of course what those idiots didn’t realise is that’ll we’ll have to take more people from outside the EU, probably something they REALLY don’t like.

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There are any number of explanations, justifications, excuses and other chatter around the whole unspeakably foul morass but fundamentally it's an abject failure of just about everything that can be considered good about a modern democracy.

Words cannot describe the utter foolishness and abject stupidity of the move.

W.

Well said. I still can’t get over the numbnuts parts of the country who have done very well out of EU subsidies voting to leave. Where do they think the replacement cash is going to come from? I really fear for the future.

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EU subsidies when the UK is one of the largest net contributors to the EU budget?

I used to live in the UK and if I was still there I am not sure which way I would have voted. I lived in France and the Netherlands and also attended a number of meetings with EU commission staff about the Electromagnetic Comparability Directive... made me very skeptical about the whole EU project.

Brexit was a 50/50 choice that will probably demonstrate the law of unintended consequences or the devil-you-know

Trump..Oy. such a shmendrik and a schmuc. Gaaaaaahhh! The election did demonstrate another variation of the law of unintended consequences. Can we blame Trump on Jefferson and Madison's willingness to compromise to drag recalcitrant colonies into the union?

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UK contribution to EU budget is tiny compared to spending on most things, like defence ….

Brexit is financed and peddled by those who want total deregulation, every man for himself, hire, fire, no public health, social security, education ...

Brexit is showing some serious cracks now that it appears the Russians had a lot more influence over the vote than realized. I wouldn't be surprised to see another referendum, but I have been surprised before by people and countries doing things that seem to be absurdly against their best interests.

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History is full of situations where fear of outsiders, foreigners, other races or religions is bent and inflamed into hate. Smart people, without morals, know how to manipulate others. We know what happens, but we don't learn. We can choose to help others, protect the planet, listen rather than shout, but ….

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Brexit was a knee jerk reaction by a group of ' watch us show them fellas over there whats what' . I'm going to guess thousands had NO idea the ramifications of the yes vote.

easy yachting is the least of the problems

Also the leave camp staged a way better campaign playing on the feelings of the masses with some doubtful claims. The party in charge, the conservatives, were convinced that it would not come that far and sat back waiting for the win for remain. Oh did they have a shock the morning after. Yes the masses voted for leaving the EU, getting rid of those pesky EU immigrants that are taking all those jobs that they didn't want to do in the first place and taking back control. Although nobody really knew what that meant. The fact that the majority of the health system relies on EU (and non-EU) doctors and nurses was a small detail that was overlooked. That non-EU immigration outstrips EU immigration by a factor of 2.5 is conveniently sidestepped. Hey, you know what? We are going to jack in a 508.2 million consumer market to which we have free access and have a trade agreement with New Zealand.

Most of all the feeling is that it was a protest vote against the political establishment. Referring to the above quote it was more the masses telling the establishment they had enough, regardless what they were voting for.

In true SA fashion ...... Why let the facts get in the way of a good story.

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Brexit is showing some serious cracks now that it appears the Russians had a lot more influence over the vote than realized. I wouldn't be surprised to see another referendum, but I have been surprised before by people and countries doing things that seem to be absurdly against their best interests.

I expect a second referendum. EU has a long list of repeated referendums until the 'correct' vote is achieved...

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Given the timeframe and closeness of the decision, Brexit was probably engineered by the Russians to weaken the EU just as they engineered Trump's election to weaken the USA. Both moves have paid off handsomely. Not as flash as grabbing Crimea without firing a shot, but chopping 10% off the GDP of the EU, eliminating the UK/EU economic and military ties and sending the US in to recession are major successes for a minor expense and a little internet creativity. Hats off to the fuckers for a bad job done well.

Who has the balls to knock a chunk out of the Kursk Bridge - If I was Poroshenko, I'd be filling a container truck full of C4 and parking it center span with a timer just long enough for the driver to make it over the railing. Toss out some cones and turn on some flashing lights for added "let's not hurt people" points. When asked, you can explain that a volunteer on holiday must have done it.

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Well, its almost a couple of years after the first referendum and the sky hasn't fallen yet. Rather, much of the U.K economy has outperformed the most dire expectations. Whether that continues and what kind of deal or no deal gets hammered out remains to be seen.

The EU is a trade pact first and foremost. Trade pacts come and go, get re-written. Frankly, I'm impressed it has lasted as long as it has. Many countries have retained certain access to the EU without fully joining. (Norway, Switzerland etc) Britain always kept one foot in the water and one on land by retaining their currency. This may prove to be the best thing they ever did.

There is a concept in poker called implied odds. Essentially it means that, while you don't have the mathematical odds to call the bet in front of you, the fact that certain players who have yet to act might call the bet as well, will make the actual odds more attractive, should the remaining players actually call the bet.

The %10 drop in the pound has narrowed the U.K trade deficit considerably for the moment. Obviously some sectors will win, some will lose. Broadly, the U K is a buyer of goods and a seller of services internationally. The most important service they sell, by far, is financial. As a seller, there is negotiating power for the U K. As long as the City of London remains the gateway both into and out of Europe for major financial services, and retains 'passport status', there might be a silver lining.

Back to the implied odds thing. Suppose there are remaining players yet to act. Portugal, Greece and Italy are well-known deadbeats. But what about France? The breakdown of a trade pact, or the imposition of quotas or tariffs can often follow the domestic and sectional interests of sectors like farming. When costs become too much, or prices to high, there needs to be someone to blame. The current gas tax riots are domestic, but it's no stretch for the fans to be flamed and find a pan-European culprit in Brussels for the high cost of living in France. As the poster up thread mentioned 'representative democracy', there will come a point when domestic concerns are just not being represented by Brussels. Exerting sovereignty is what follows.

Looking into the crystal ball, now that all these countries will have seen the British road map to exit the union, they will gain confidence. If they see that UK has 'cherry picked' there way out of it, that is, paying for some rights and passing on others (the way Norway has), it's not long before member countries start the 'how come were paying for this while they're not paying for it' discontent chatter. They will have the added complication of no longer having there own currency, and with that, extra focus will be on the uncertainty of the Euro. This uncertainty will no doubt re-bolster the value of the pound.

With the pound back up, goods cheapen domestically, the selling of financial services remains constant(I'd argue it can easily withstand plus/minus %10 or more), and UK stays on its feet while the EU scrambles to keep members enthused about their payments.

In short, if the UK can exit with 'passport' financial service status, and their exit (bet) emboldens other players to fold their tents and go it alone, there's always the chance that the net benefit (sentiment of a solid economy, solid British pound vs uncertainty in EU), might outweigh or at least match the net loss(projected %1-2 GDP loss do to ineffeciencies, lost or more expensive market).

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Well, its almost a couple of years after the first referendum and the sky hasn't fallen yet. Rather, much of the U.K economy has outperformed the most dire expectations. Whether that continues and what kind of deal or no deal gets hammered out remains to be seen.

The EU is a trade pact first and foremost. Trade pacts come and go, get re-written. Frankly, I'm impressed it has lasted as long as it has. Many countries have retained certain access to the EU without fully joining. (Norway, Switzerland etc) Britain always kept one foot in the water and one on land by retaining their currency. This may prove to be the best thing they ever did.

There is a concept in poker called implied odds. Essentially it means that, while you don't have the mathematical odds to call the bet in front of you, the fact that certain players who have yet to act might call the bet as well, will make the actual odds more attractive, should the remaining players actually call the bet.

The %10 drop in the pound has narrowed the U.K trade deficit considerably for the moment. Obviously some sectors will win, some will lose. Broadly, the U K is a buyer of goods and a seller of services internationally. The most important service they sell, by far, is financial. As a seller, there is negotiating power for the U K. As long as the City of London remains the gateway both into and out of Europe for major financial services, and retains 'passport status', there might be a silver lining.

Back to the implied odds thing. Suppose there are remaining players yet to act. Portugal, Greece and Italy are well-known deadbeats. But what about France? The breakdown of a trade pact, or the imposition of quotas or tariffs can often follow the domestic and sectional interests of sectors like farming. When costs become too much, or prices to high, there needs to be someone to blame. The current gas tax riots are domestic, but it's no stretch for the fans to be flamed and find a pan-European culprit in Brussels for the high cost of living in France. As the poster up thread mentioned 'representative democracy', there will come a point when domestic concerns are just not being represented by Brussels. Exerting sovereignty is what follows.

Looking into the crystal ball, now that all these countries will have seen the British road map to exit the union, they will gain confidence. If they see that UK has 'cherry picked' there way out of it, that is, paying for some rights and passing on others (the way Norway has), it's not long before member countries start the 'how come were paying for this while they're not paying for it' discontent chatter. They will have the added complication of no longer having there own currency, and with that, extra focus will be on the uncertainty of the Euro. This uncertainty will no doubt re-bolster the value of the pound.

With the pound back up, goods cheapen domestically, the selling of financial services remains constant(I'd argue it can easily withstand plus/minus %10 or more), and UK stays on its feet while the EU scrambles to keep members enthused about their payments.

In short, if the UK can exit with 'passport' financial service status, and their exit (bet) emboldens other players to fold their tents and go it alone, there's always the chance that the net benefit (sentiment of a solid economy, solid British pound vs uncertainty in EU), might outweigh or at least match the net loss(projected %1-2 GDP loss do to ineffeciencies, lost or more expensive market).

My 2 pence.

Yeah, right! This is the same sort of fantasy talk the Brexiteers made during the campaign when they claimed the UK would be in the driver's seat when negotiating an exit deal with the EU. It doesn't seem to have turned out that way.

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Brexit, and a few other recent election results are examples of the stupidity of the group. First there was Boaty McBoatface (google it if you do not know what I am talking about).

Hello, Grumpy McWumpy!

"Boat McBoatface" was not stupid: it was a classic case of taking the piss out of a self-important bureaucracy. Of course, the NERC then disregarded the results of its own poll and instead the research vessel was named after gasbag David Attenborough.

Life is short, why not indulge in a little frivolity? Happily, Sweden doesn't take itself as seriously: one year ago its new Stockholm-Gothenburg train was officially christened Trainy McTrainface, by popular demand.

"Boat McBoatface" was not stupid: it was a classic case of taking the piss out of a self-important bureaucracy. Of course, the NERC then disregarded the results of its own poll and instead the research vessel was named after gasbag David Attenborough.

Life is short, why not indulge in a little frivolity? Happily, Sweden doesn't take itself as seriously: one year ago its new Stockholm-Gothenburg train was officially christened Trainy McTrainface, by popular demand.

Perhaps there was an element of this idea of "taking the piss out of a self-important bureaucracy" in the pro-BREXIT vote. Many of the voters probably went into the voting booths thinking that it was stupid that the government was throwing the question to them, so they voted "Leave" knowing that the government wanted them to vote "Remain".

I feel this way when I am in the voting booth looking at the list of candidates for my local Peanut Soil and Water Conservation District. I put more time than most of the people I know into studying the positions of the various candidates for national, state, county, and town offices and the various ballot referenda, but I never have any idea how to vote when it comes to the PSWCD. I doesn't get a lot of coverage in the local newspapers. I usually just write in my wife's name.

Perhaps we would be better off with a system in which the voter is simply handed a blue card and a red card at the entrance to the polling station with instructions to stick one card in the ballot box and tear up the other card.

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I think there is some truth in those who say that the EU project now has at its heart social and financial engineering rather than its post war origins of being a trade and agricultural pact.

There are undoubtedly substantial tensions within the EU, e.g. most recently Italy, and for some time now about the Euro. This can't be a surprise to anyone when the membership is so diverse, having, in horribly broad terms, a north/south and east divide, with Germany both the lynchpin and the dominant force.

The most compelling argument to my mind for leaving was - and this didn't ultimately sway me to the leavers' cause - that if you believe the EU project will fail, better to get out sooner than when the whole thing begins to implode.

You'd have thought that with all his shagging, Boris would cut a rather more svelte figure. But then again he might just be very selfish and self-centred.

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EU reminds me of the US, which is really a collection of "sovereign" states. Otherwise we would have had a more imaginative and cool name for the country. We have similar NS and EW divisions, and had a brutal and bloody civil war that still raises resentments. People dont get everything they want and and piss and moan about other parts of the country. War is cool until your house gets bombed and your family dies. Mike Tyson was right. Everyone has a plan til they get punched in the mouth.

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^^ Before there the United States had the Constitution, there were the Articles of Confederation, which more closely paralleled the European Union in that most of the authority existed with the individual states and not the central government. The need for a stronger central government was soon seen, and the Articles of Confederation were replaced with the Constitution. The European Union may now be starting down a similar path. The debt crisis in Greece and other southern European countries has exposed the need for stronger centralized control of national budgets and economic policy. There is also talk of creating a joint European military command separate from NATO. If the UK does indeed leave the European Union, this might facilitate the evolution toward a stronger centralized European government, which is something that the UK has strongly opposed.

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Regarding speculation that the EU will eventually fail, I don't believe it. I have been amazed at the suffering the Greeks have endured to remain in the EU, and I believe the UK is demonstrating how painful leaving the EU can be, both in terms of economics and internal politics. If there is a hard Brexit, I fully expect that Northern Ireland will seek independence from the UK, and Scotland may do the same.

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Well your 2p will be worth half that after 29th March ........................... In case you haven't noticed, they haven't left yet.

Maybe quote the whole paragraph next time, only one more sentence would've done it.

"Well, its almost a couple of years after the first referendum and the sky hasn't fallen yet. Rather, much of the U.K economy has outperformed the most dire expectations. Whether that continues and what kind of deal or no deal gets hammered out remains to be seen."

I was merely spelling out one of a few plausible scenarios.

You might be right. Maybe they stay, for now. But other countries are watching. Opposition parties and movements will fly the exit banner in their own sovereign nations, whether they make immediate economic sense or not. Suppose the exit fee negotiations become such that they reflect a scenario where other member countries are effectively being held hostage, unable to pay enough to leave. Not good. People don't like to be held against their will.

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Perhaps there was an element of this idea of "taking the piss out of a self-important bureaucracy" in the pro-BREXIT vote. Many of the voters probably went into the voting booths thinking that it was stupid that the government was throwing the question to them, so they voted "Leave" knowing that the government wanted them to vote "Remain".

I feel this way when I am in the voting booth looking at the list of candidates for my local Peanut Soil and Water Conservation District. I put more time than most of the people I know into studying the positions of the various candidates for national, state, county, and town offices and the various ballot referenda, but I never have any idea how to vote when it comes to the PSWCD. I doesn't get a lot of coverage in the local newspapers. I usually just write in my wife's name.

Perhaps we would be better off with a system in which the voter is simply handed a blue card and a red card at the entrance to the polling station with instructions to stick one card in the ballot box and tear up the other card.

If there was another referendum.....(a tie breaker,. because the first referendum was pro-EU and the second referendum was leave-EU)

One way to get people to vote on the issues rather than emotion would be to attach some realism to the voting process.

At the voting booth, there would be two levers (Remain and Leave) and a credit card machine. If you want to pull the leave lever, the booth will charge the voter's credit card 1,800 pounds but at the same time give them a nice old style British passport passport with a hardback blue cover. If you want to pull the remain lever, you actually get a refund but you also get a crappy floppy passport with a maroon cover and a circle of stars on the front.

If returning to the "good old days" is more important than economic consequences, then the majority will pay the fee.

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"Boat McBoatface" was not stupid: it was a classic case of taking the piss out of a self-important bureaucracy. Of course, the NERC then disregarded the results of its own poll and instead the research vessel was named after gasbag David Attenborough.

Life is short, why not indulge in a little frivolity? Happily, Sweden doesn't take itself as seriously: one year ago its new Stockholm-Gothenburg train was officially christened Trainy McTrainface, by popular demand.

My point (which, admittedly, was not very clear) was that people took the same approach with Brexit. Yes, boaty mcboatface is hilarious. Brexit not so.

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Regarding speculation that the EU will eventually fail, I don't believe it. I have been amazed at the suffering the Greeks have endured to remain in the EU, and I believe the UK is demonstrating how painful leaving the EU can be, both in terms of economics and internal politics. If there is a hard Brexit, I fully expect that Northern Ireland will seek independence from the UK, and Scotland may do the same.

If that happens, the sectarian violence will make the Troubles look like a kindergarten fight.

“Over recent decades the [EU] has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society.”

Why are these figures not better known? Europe is not good at “marketing” itself. Despite a tough sovereign debt crisis, the debt to GDP of the 28-country euro area is 89% or, for the earlier 19-country euro area 96%. The U.S. figure is 105%. The euro area’s fiscal balances are healthier — Figure 5; the euro 15-country area’s productivity per hour worked exceeds that of the U.S., and its labor markets are getting stronger: Since 2000, the employment rate has increased in the euro area but fallen by around six percentage points in the U.S. The participation rate in the euro area stabilized after rising in 2009; in the U.S. it continues to decline.

Figure 5: Selected comparative fiscal balances (% of GDP)

Source: European Commission, Economic Forecast — Spring 2015

Of course, the U.S. has several strengths compared to Europe: an exceptional entrepreneurial culture, a competitive edge in technology and innovation and better developed capital markets, as many U.S. companies rely on these markets to fund expansion rather than on banks. A single country with a common language also makes it easier to have an integrated economy.

Among Europe’s strengths, the EU remains one of the largest economies in the world with a GDP per head of US$37,000 for its over half billion citizens and consumers. It is the world’s largest trader of manufactured goods and services, whose large internal market accommodates 65% of its overall trade, given low labor costs and a well-educated common market workforce. It is also first in both inbound and outbound international investments. It is a top trading partner for 80 countries compared to 20 plus for the U.S. Excluding fuels, the EU imports more from developing countries and continents, such as Africa, than Canada, China, Japan and the U.S. — combined. The EU, at peace and united in diversity, benefits from low-cost development and greater social responsibility, particularly on issues of welfare and climate control.

With all this in mind, is Europe outperforming the United States? The EU has long been seen as the best peace creation project of all time, with no wars at its core over the last 70 years. Over recent decades it has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society, including 100 million new citizens over the past decade. This means that if you are lucky enough to belong to the top 1% or 10% in the U.S., you are no doubt quite well off. In Europe, life at the top is also not bad, but if you happen to be, like the majority of the population, in the bottom 90%, or one of 450 million people, in Europe you are far better off.

Not only is Europe producing an admirable and competitive growth model, it is, by design and conviction, deploying the wealth generated in economic solidarity with its broader population, not just for the top 1%. That is Europe’s greatest economic accomplishment, its greatest competitive advantage and the key to its outperformance.

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I lived and worked in Spain, the people I still have contact with (middle class and lower) do not see the Eu as the problem maker, but world (2008 crises) and internal politics.
There is still no anti EU far right party in parliament there. Unique in the EU.

For the Greeks, they are still in, not happy, but still in. So you would have expected a referendum there to get out. No such thing.
The suffered immensely, partly due too the EU, but many recognize their own old style politicians were scumbags and disaster was waiting to happen. But people still kept voting for scumbags as they gained from it in short term. I only spoke to a few Greeks while I was sailing there this summer, that was their thinking, mostly younger people though. The Greeks I spoke here (a few and older 40 yrs at least) are far more condemning of their old politicians, scumbags is even a friendly word.
Reminder, in 1975 they still were under dictatorship, so came a long way. It was a highly politicized, you voted for x because he arranged something for you, being free water, building permit etc. Lots of corruption.

You would expect more countries to follow the UK and go for an exit if the EU was so bad to be into. To my surprise it did not happen. I really thought Greece would step out too.

Regarding speculation that the EU will eventually fail, I don't believe it. I have been amazed at the suffering the Greeks have endured to remain in the EU, and I believe the UK is demonstrating how painful leaving the EU can be, both in terms of economics and internal politics. If there is a hard Brexit, I fully expect that Northern Ireland will seek independence from the UK, and Scotland may do the same.

Events of the last few decades might give pause for thought on this.

- the breakup of the former Yugoslavia

- Czech/Slovakia

- Catalan, Basque, Scottish, Welsh..... succession movements, which the EU feigns to ignore as they are antithesis to an increasingly centrist philosophy

- you even get mutterings in Belgium, with the Flemish and Walloon split!

- nationalism has been increasingly to the fore, with increasing tones of illiberalism and racism: take Hungary as a current example

It was always naive to think, as many of our politicians seemed to, that the EU would not play hard ball in the Brexit negotiations, and that remains and will remain the case - ' pour encourager les autres '. But the trendsare there and if there are increasing doubts about the EU as an economic proposition, well who knows.

On a point of anecdote, I've spent quite a lot of time in Europe over the past year, and when the subject of Brexit pops up, and I can't avoid it even though I know it's likely to spoil my day, recurrent themes and questions are

- you ought to remain

- will May get something through Parliament ( I have been pessimistic throughout - answer probably not )

- if May resigns or sacks, who replaces her ( answer - I dread to think, but it would be a much more committed Brexiteer )

- would there be a general election ( answer - Tories would almost certainly resist strongly, and there are at least they'd have the continuing support of the DUP )

- if there was a general election, who would win ( answer - probably a hung parliament )

- will there be another referendum ( answer, difficult, but there would be fundamental constitutional issues about reversing the command given by the electorate in the last referendum, and even if there was, there would be difficult questions about the question(s) to be put on the ballot paper - this would go to court, undoubtedly, IMHO )

- who would win a referendum ( my answer that there would be a very serious prospect that the leavers would win is met with heads shaking in disbelief, but that's my take: there are strong, some would say ill-informed, views, in England anyway where such a referendum would probably be won or lost, of fuck you politicians, fuck the establishment, fuck the City, fuck the South East and those that want to keep what they've got, you remainers ( and many others ) cried wolf at the last referendum about the economic impact of Brexit and have been caught out - and last but by no means least, fuck Brussels and the EU )

- Catalan, Basque, Scottish, Welsh..... succession movements, which the EU feigns to ignore as they are antithesis to an increasingly centrist philosophy

- you even get mutterings in Belgium, with the Flemish and Walloon split!

- nationalism has been increasingly to the fore, with increasing tones of illiberalism and racism: take Hungary as a current example

It was always naive to think, as many of our politicians seemed to, that the EU would not play hard ball in the Brexit negotiations, and that remains and will remain the case - ' pour encourager les autres '. But the trendsare there and if there are increasing doubts about the EU as an economic proposition, well who knows.

On a point of anecdote, I've spent quite a lot of time in Europe over the past year, and when the subject of Brexit pops up, and I can't avoid it even though I know it's likely to spoil my day, recurrent themes and questions are

- you ought to remain

- will May get something through Parliament ( I have been pessimistic throughout - answer probably not )

- if May resigns or sacks, who replaces her ( answer - I dread to think, but it would be a much more committed Brexiteer )

- would there be a general election ( answer - Tories would almost certainly resist strongly, and there are at least they'd have the continuing support of the DUP )

- if there was a general election, who would win ( answer - probably a hung parliament )

- will there be another referendum ( answer, difficult, but there would be fundamental constitutional issues about reversing the command given by the electorate in the last referendum, and even if there was, there would be difficult questions about the question(s) to be put on the ballot paper - this would go to court, undoubtedly, IMHO )

- who would win a referendum ( my answer that there would be a very serious prospect that the leavers would win is met with heads shaking in disbelief, but that's my take: there are strong, some would say ill-informed, views, in England anyway where such a referendum would probably be won or lost, of fuck you politicians, fuck the establishment, fuck the City, fuck the South East and those that want to keep what they've got, you remainers ( and many others ) cried wolf at the last referendum about the economic impact of Brexit and have been caught out - and last but by no means least, fuck Brussels and the EU )

Yeah, right! Try telling the Greeks and the Spanish that the EU is failing. The reality is that both countries saw the advantages of EU membership as being so compelling that they were willing to endure the suffering caused by extreme austerity to stay in. Compared to other countries in the EU, the UK should have a relatively easy exit path because the UK does not participate in the Euro, but the UK has become the poster child for all the reasons why leaving is a bad idea.

Spain faced the Catalan separatist movement and the UK faced the Scottish separatist movement. Both movements failed at least in part because of the desire of the separatists to stay in the EU. The EU made it clear in both cases that any newly created countries would have to go through a lengthy process to join. Now with the UK poised to exit the EU, there is new motivation for Scotland (and Northern Ireland) to seek independence.

I am an American, but I feel strongly about this for several reasons. I have a Greek cousin who now works in the London branch of an American financial institution. I have a grandfather who was from Leeds. His mother was Scottish and his father was English. During the referendum on Scottish independence, I felt strongly that Scotland should remain part of the UK. I felt my loyalty was betrayed when the UK voted to leave the EU, especially given that Scotland voted to remain.

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If we ran the US "like a business" we would close every state that loses money, i.e. receives more Federal money than it pays in taxes. People living in those states would be "fired", i.e. their citizenship would be revoked unless they found a profitable state willing to take them in. Alternatively, we could sell those states to Russia or China or N Korea etc. and the residents would become subjects of those new corporate parents. Here's the list. Only 14 states are net contributors to the national profit.

- Catalan, Basque, Scottish, Welsh..... succession movements, which the EU feigns to ignore as they are antithesis to an increasingly centrist philosophy

- you even get mutterings in Belgium, with the Flemish and Walloon split!

- nationalism has been increasingly to the fore, with increasing tones of illiberalism and racism: take Hungary as a current example

I am thinking, need more pause to think as I do not see some relevancies.

Yugo, all ex states wants to get in, and Czech/Slovakia are both in.
Succession, the EU charter do not give them any rights in this, except the warning finger. It is internal, no EU laws for that.
Belgium, I am there every week, it is a special needs child.
Rising nationalism is a concern fro the EU, or a cure ? The ex Eastern Block counties seems to be good in that. Lots based on the same problem that fuels the Brexit, immigration and own culture. The own culture is IMHO not a big deal, but immigration can be, from outside the EU, not so much within. So I get that point.

My question to UK would be; how much wealth do you want to trade for independence ?
And I am totally aware that for most money does not make you more happy, as long as we talk up to 10 % or so. Maybe the UK will prosper in the long run, who knows.

From the EU view; It as a big social undertaking, but nothing like for instance the break up of the USSR, its only the UK. Troublemakers from the get go. They hate to see the UK go, for unity reasons, money, army etc. Some countries are glad to get rid of them, but not a majority, no way.
From the UK view, it is the biggest social undertaking since the breakdown of The Empire. Could succeed, could be hardship in the future.
So for the UK it is a bigger thing then for the EU.

And one thing is a bit off, but unavoidable, you vote for remain, one option, you remain, as is. You vote Leave, what kind of Leaving ? Many answers.
That is the mess now in the UK.

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I am one of those pesky EU 'immigrants'. Been coming here for 40 years on family holidays with the boat from when I was a nipper. Later for many Cowes Weeks and RORC offshores and now living & working here for the last 11 years. I never questioned my status in the UK and it never entered my mind that I would be regarded any different by the locals. Oh how that has changed !

There have been a few occasions when people asked where I came from, in that peculiar way, and the mere notion that I am now regarded as a second class citizen does not sit well. Fortunately not from close friends and at work they take the piss anyway but it is more a general feeling of not being welcome anymore and carrying 'that label'.

There is a lot of uncertainty and we have been, and depending on how this train crash ends, will be used as bargaining chips.

"Oh, you will be okay" somehow does not cut it and it's a *kin crying shame.

1

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I am one of those pesky EU 'immigrants'. Been coming here for 40 years on family holidays with the boat from when I was a nipper. Later for many Cowes Weeks and RORC offshores and now living & working here for the last 11 years. I never questioned my status in the UK and it never entered my mind that I would be regarded any different by the locals. Oh how that has changed !

There have been a few occasions when people asked where I came from, in that peculiar way, and the mere notion that I am now regarded as a second class citizen does not sit well. Fortunately not from close friends and at work they take the piss anyway but it is more a general feeling of not being welcome anymore and carrying 'that label'.

There is a lot of uncertainty and we have been, and depending on how this train crash ends, will be used as bargaining chips.

"Oh, you will be okay" somehow does not cut it and it's a *kin crying shame.

I was wonder if this is the same feeling that expats living and working in the EU feel?

Has there been a declaration from the EU on where they stand with this? The EU seems to be remarkably quiet about a lot of the details.

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I was wonder if this is the same feeling that expats living and working in the EU feel?

They are also victims of the same train crash but I somehow have the feeling that they are made to feel more welcome (or no change) by the locals wherever they are. The only snag is that the value of, and the ease of getting at their pensions will more difficult. But that is on the UK's plate, not the EU's.

That I can believe! Where are you based? And potentially would you have to leave if there is a no-deal?

53 minutes ago, Laser1 said:

They are also victims of the same train crash but I somehow have the feeling that they are made to feel more welcome (or no change) by the locals wherever they are. The only snag is that the value of, and the ease of getting at their pensions will more difficult. But that is on the UK's plate, not the EU's.

Sorry to hear that people feel that way towards you, I work with and know plenty of Europeans and I’ve not heard them say this. They are concerned about the situation, but have never said they feel unwelcome.

This whole fucking mess is embarrassing.

1

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London Heathrow has been an easy gateway city for us from the US to Europe for business and vacations. I'm booking EU travel post Brexit and will likely go through Amsterdam instead. Even though I'll have to fly out of Dulles instead of BWI, which is a huge pain from Annapolis. The flight into Schipol is about the same duration especially when you kill 30 minutes holding in the landing queue over Heathrow. But I think a UK vacation should be cheaper in future as the pound drops against the dollar. Mach Loop in Wales looks very cool and haven't managed to get there yet.

to quote one of the best Dutch writers ever : "wij hollanders mogen de belgen dankbaar zijn omdat ze voor ons de kastanjes uit het vuur halen" ... spot the writer and spot the background, which is still relevant, especially in view of your stupid remark

“Over recent decades the [EU] has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society.”

Why are these figures not better known? Europe is not good at “marketing” itself. Despite a tough sovereign debt crisis, the debt to GDP of the 28-country euro area is 89% or, for the earlier 19-country euro area 96%. The U.S. figure is 105%. The euro area’s fiscal balances are healthier — Figure 5; the euro 15-country area’s productivity per hour worked exceeds that of the U.S., and its labor markets are getting stronger: Since 2000, the employment rate has increased in the euro area but fallen by around six percentage points in the U.S. The participation rate in the euro area stabilized after rising in 2009; in the U.S. it continues to decline.

Figure 5: Selected comparative fiscal balances (% of GDP)

Source: European Commission, Economic Forecast — Spring 2015

Of course, the U.S. has several strengths compared to Europe: an exceptional entrepreneurial culture, a competitive edge in technology and innovation and better developed capital markets, as many U.S. companies rely on these markets to fund expansion rather than on banks. A single country with a common language also makes it easier to have an integrated economy.

Among Europe’s strengths, the EU remains one of the largest economies in the world with a GDP per head of US$37,000 for its over half billion citizens and consumers. It is the world’s largest trader of manufactured goods and services, whose large internal market accommodates 65% of its overall trade, given low labor costs and a well-educated common market workforce. It is also first in both inbound and outbound international investments. It is a top trading partner for 80 countries compared to 20 plus for the U.S. Excluding fuels, the EU imports more from developing countries and continents, such as Africa, than Canada, China, Japan and the U.S. — combined. The EU, at peace and united in diversity, benefits from low-cost development and greater social responsibility, particularly on issues of welfare and climate control.

With all this in mind, is Europe outperforming the United States? The EU has long been seen as the best peace creation project of all time, with no wars at its core over the last 70 years. Over recent decades it has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society, including 100 million new citizens over the past decade. This means that if you are lucky enough to belong to the top 1% or 10% in the U.S., you are no doubt quite well off. In Europe, life at the top is also not bad, but if you happen to be, like the majority of the population, in the bottom 90%, or one of 450 million people, in Europe you are far better off.

Not only is Europe producing an admirable and competitive growth model, it is, by design and conviction, deploying the wealth generated in economic solidarity with its broader population, not just for the top 1%. That is Europe’s greatest economic accomplishment, its greatest competitive advantage and the key to its outperformance.

The unemployment rate in the Euro Area was steady at 8.1 percent in October of 2018, the same as in each of the previous three months but higher than market expectations of 8 percent. It remained the lowest jobless rate since November of 2008. Unemployment Rate in the Euro Area averaged 9.71 percent from 1995 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 12.10 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 7.30 percent in October of 2007.

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I am thinking, need more pause to think as I do not see some relevancies.

Yugo, all ex states wants to get in, and Czech/Slovakia are both in.
Succession, the EU charter do not give them any rights in this, except the warning finger. It is internal, no EU laws for that.
Belgium, I am there every week, it is a special needs child.
Rising nationalism is a concern fro the EU, or a cure ? The ex Eastern Block counties seems to be good in that. Lots based on the same problem that fuels the Brexit, immigration and own culture. The own culture is IMHO not a big deal, but immigration can be, from outside the EU, not so much within. So I get that point.

My question to UK would be; how much wealth do you want to trade for independence ?
And I am totally aware that for most money does not make you more happy, as long as we talk up to 10 % or so. Maybe the UK will prosper in the long run, who knows.

From the EU view; It as a big social undertaking, but nothing like for instance the break up of the USSR, its only the UK. Troublemakers from the get go. They hate to see the UK go, for unity reasons, money, army etc. Some countries are glad to get rid of them, but not a majority, no way.
From the UK view, it is the biggest social undertaking since the breakdown of The Empire. Could succeed, could be hardship in the future.
So for the UK it is a bigger thing then for the EU.

And one thing is a bit off, but unavoidable, you vote for remain, one option, you remain, as is. You vote Leave, what kind of Leaving ? Many answers.
That is the mess now in the UK.

Regarding "You vote Leave, what kind of Leaving", the Brexiteers were very clear on this. They claimed that the exit agreement would allow the UK to prohibit the entry of workers from the EU, but would allow the UK free access to EU markets while avoiding EU regulations. The problem is that it was all a fantasy. Such an agreement was never a possibility.

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Regarding "You vote Leave, what kind of Leaving", the Brexiteers were very clear on this. They claimed that the exit agreement would allow the UK to prohibit the entry of workers from the EU, but would allow the UK free access to EU markets while avoiding EU regulations. The problem is that it was all a fantasy. Such an agreement was never a possibility.

Which exactly is what all sides apart from the deluded have been saying since day 1. And a sizeable proportion still believe it’s possible.

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Why will Brexit change the way you travel to the EU. The UK is not in Schengen, so you will still have to go through the same passport controls pre or post Brexit.

My recollection from last London to Paris (Eurostar) was pretty seamless travel. Maybe border officials were just being courteous. There seems to be so much acrimony over Brexit that I'd prefer to see how things go for a few months rather than take any even slightly higher chance that they won't go well and having to unravel reservations/connections, etc. Tourism is affected more by confidence than reality I suppose. Since my final destination is the EU this trip I may as well just make the connection in the US and fly direct into the EU. Was most recently in the UK last year so I don't really need to go this year.

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Oh you think this actually has anything to do with whether the EU is democratic of not?

Nah. The question is what alternative is being presented that will allow the people who lived on credit gravy through the 90s to beleive there is a way to get back to those standards of living other than the right wing "there isn't enough to go round, let's take ours". In the UK there is zero credabile argument being put forward for an alternative leaving people in the hands of otherwise marginal characters who are happy to us ghosts and monsters to distract from their even more unpalatable int