I think it's one of those things where if you have to try to explain the joke, it's already too late.

The most technologically advanced species in Rogue Trader are bloomin Orangutans. IT'S A JOKE!

AranaszarSzuur wrote:The background doesn't support Space Marines being weaker than non-enchanced human heroes, the opposite, it states that they are ultimate warriors of humanity.

Baseline Human < Ultimate Warriors < Minor Heroes < Major Heroes.

It's a simple heirarchy. The background doesn't support Space Marines being better than a Major Hero, better than baseline human yes.

You seem to be taking a few instances of hyperbole against the massive onslaught of contrary data. We can all play that game:

"...a variety of musical instruments may be bought into the fray." (p.155)"...the battle-brothers recite liturgies, and incant battle-prayers" (p. 160)"...each chapter has it's own banners, and some chapters even take them into battle " (p 155)

That's right, it's the Imperial Salvation Army!

And yeah, we made jokes about Space Marines being the Salvation Army back in the day.

AranaszarSzuur wrote:How about:

We have a statuesque heroic marine

Looks much more like:

Than anything in Rogue Trader. There are no 'statuesque heroic' space marines in Rogue Trader, it's not a relevant trope, it's something that came along after, it's the same machismo fist-pumping. On the other hand, in Rogue Trader there are shedloads of images of Space Marines getting thrashed, blown up, skulking around trying not to get shot, shooting punks in alleyways, arresting graphiti kids, enslaving Squats, getting shot in the head by Orks with bolt pistols. None of them are in cheesy heroic poses.

And for whatever reason they're getting shot to bits, whatever they are getting lazered up by, they simply ain't depicted in a heroic manner.

You have to rember when RT first came out the fluff wasa quite different to how it ended up. This being an Oldhammer forum we tend to view any amount of imposed fluff as merely a suggestion so even the RT stuff is advisory if i remeber correctly we are talking about games we played before yuo were born. Stuff that came out in your own formative gaming years passed most of us by, its important to you, we get it and your not wrong in your opinion it's just we aren't wrong either. Enjoy your space marines however you like them, there is no right and no wrong.

100% this

Actually if we look at it Space Marines aren't even super-human.... they are 25-28mm pieces of lead/plastic that we spent hours and hours daubing paint onto while our girlfriends/wives sob in the lounge because no house work or DIY ever gets done!

Zhu Bajie wrote:I think it's one of those things where if you have to try to explain the joke, it's already too late.

The most technologically advanced species in Rogue Trader are bloomin Orangutans. IT'S A JOKE!

AranaszarSzuur wrote:The background doesn't support Space Marines being weaker than non-enchanced human heroes, the opposite, it states that they are ultimate warriors of humanity.

Baseline Human < Ultimate Warriors < Minor Heroes < Major Heroes.

It's a simple heirarchy. The background doesn't support Space Marines being better than a Major Hero, better than baseline human yes.

You seem to be taking a few instances of hyperbole against the massive onslaught of contrary data. We can all play that game:

"...a variety of musical instruments may be bought into the fray." (p.155)"...the battle-brothers recite liturgies, and incant battle-prayers" (p. 160)"...each chapter has it's own banners, and some chapters even take them into battle " (p 155)

That's right, it's the Imperial Salvation Army!

And yeah, we made jokes about Space Marines being the Salvation Army back in the day.

AranaszarSzuur wrote:How about:

We have a statuesque heroic marine

Looks much more like:

Than anything in Rogue Trader. There are no 'statuesque heroic' space marines in Rogue Trader, it's not a relevant trope, it's something that came along after, it's the same machismo fist-pumping. On the other hand, in Rogue Trader there are shedloads of images of Space Marines getting thrashed, blown up, skulking around trying not to get shot, shooting punks in alleyways, arresting graphiti kids, enslaving Squats, getting shot in the head by Orks with bolt pistols. None of them are in cheesy heroic poses.

And for whatever reason they're getting shot to bits, whatever they are getting lazered up by, they simply ain't depicted in a heroic manner.

It shows that they regularly pass armour saves. There are at least 4 hits stopped by armour on image and the face-melting one is clearly from some kind of a heavier weapon than the rest. The face-melted marine went down only after being hit with a literal hail of fire. Also, his armour is severely damaged, which shows that he endured multiple hits with the heavy weapon before eventually getting hit on the helmet and brought down.

The assault marine artwork shows that powered armour is made to stop multiple hits with infantry weapons and generally the artworks show armour surface damage that suggests multiple hits it stopped.

Anyway, as I said before, the martyrdom aspect doesn't make them unheroic.

The 3rd edition artwork I have shown before as an example, has only one living marine and two that are literally chewed up.

Zhu Bajie wrote:Yes that's all correct. But none of it suggests a standard marine should have a better profile than a Human Minor Hero to me

Nothing in the fluff suggests that Space Marines should have lower combat/physical stats than un-enchanced humans.

They don't - they have stats of enhanced humans, which is why their baseline profile is better than a baseline human, why their Heroes are better than Human Heroes. But a human hero is better than a standard space marine, which is entirely consistent with the background and themes of the game.

AranaszarSzuur wrote:Also, judging by how the Marine wasn't dropped by whatever tore open his torso and needed a face-melting to go down clearly indicates he has toughness and wounds comparable to a Tyranid Warrior .