No, I am really not, and especially not in the second half of that post which was about h sc and dungeons (and bres depending on where you divide the half). I wasn't really overselling anything, and the only one fitting your description was the person I replied to. Though before I get into it more, I'll consider what you have to say as a meaningful comment when your own post doesn't show how your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Other people may have tried to over sell rogue utility (such as the person the person I replied to replied to... ok that was confusing). I'm not the one listing 'can kite' as the utility a class brings... I didn't list out a huge list of awesome rogue utility. We have some minor bonuses and minor faults like most classes, those (including the stuff you threw in there) aren't really worth bringing to the discussion because while you might say bring a warrior for cry/banners over a rogue for that, you aren't likely to bring an enh shaman or whatever because they can target swap easier because while true, it really isn't going to be significant enough. Things like the standard buffs or kiting especially don't warrant inclusion into the utility discussion.

You seem to be saying AMZ > bomb. I won't argue the other way around, but you are definitely wrong. For example, 20% of the damage you take on a rampage on HM Meg over 7 seconds is more than what AMZ blocks. You are also ignoring the other utility of smoke bomb where you can interfere with mechanics. You can smoke bomb on HM council and block a frost bite from ever getting cast which is far, far more useful than anywhere you could toss an AMZ on that fight. Now bomb does have a 1 minute longer cooldown (yes thats right, 1 minute longer).

Looking at the whole package, I feel AMZ is more useful in a raid than Smoke Bomb.

AMS is -different- from cloak - you can't 'cloak off' a debuff with AMS; just make its damage (if it does damage) turn into RP - but in this tier, I like AMS more than Cloak.

I may be disenfranchized from Rogue. I started Rogue in BC and DK in WotLK - not a big difference; but it is a full year, year and a half more playing Rogue - but I'm just tired of all 3 Rogue specs feeling the same - whereas with DK and Mage, even if the specs are the same role, they do it differently and have different niches they fill.

Combat does cleave - but Warriors do it better.
Assassin can slap a rupture on short-living adds and get a burst of energy while they keep on the main target--or switch between 2-3 targets and get big energy regen; or spam FoK and stack up deadly on all of them.
Sublety can do big bursts every minute on adds that need to die quickly; or can put cheap/garrote on multiple things.

They still do effectively the same thing in most situations: Build up to 5 combo; damage-finisher. Keep Slice and Dice and Rupture going. For as long as the game's been out - and there's not much else to it.
That's why I think people say Rogues are bad. They may not be bad - just boring.

Looking at the whole package, I feel AMZ is more useful in a raid than Smoke Bomb.

AMS is -different- from cloak - you can't 'cloak off' a debuff with AMZ; just make its damage (if it does damage) turn into RP - but in this tier, I like AMS more than Cloak.

I may be disenfranchized from Rogue. I started Rogue in BC and DK in WotLK - not a big difference; but it is a full year, year and a half more playing Rogue - but I'm just tired of all 3 Rogue specs feeling the same - whereas with DK and Mage, even if the specs are the same role, they do it differently and have different niches they fill.

Combat does cleave - but Warriors do it better.
Assassin can slap a rupture on short-living adds and get a burst of energy while they keep on the main target--or switch between 2-3 targets and get big energy regen; or spam FoK and stack up deadly on all of them.
Sublety can do big bursts every minute on adds that need to die quickly; or can put cheap/garrote on multiple things.

They still do effectively the same thing in most situations: Build up to 5 combo; damage-finisher. Keep Slice and Dice and Rupture going. For as long as the game's been out - and there's not much else to it.
That's why I think people say Rogues are bad. They may not be bad - just boring.

AMS and AMZ are vastly different moves.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by cronight

m8 sry but I think you are in big wrong. Cheat death is very strong and useful in pve and almost give you second life, I really cant dicribe how I found it to be useful tin a lots of situations on boss encounters !!!

Cheat Death saves you from dying, you shouldn't be using CD over elusiveness almost ever.

I have yet to bump into a rogue with Challenge Mode gear on Stormreaver.

I had it while I was on stormreaver, but I've since moved. Problem is that it's a pretty ugly set if you aren't playing one of the smaller-built classes that stand up right. Looks awful on male orcs, male trolls, male undead and male+female pandaren. Looks okay on female UD, female troll and both goblin. Not to mention that there are a LOT of cool old rogue sets.

It would help if the armor looked at all rogue related.. big golden fire spewing dragons don't evoke the idea of a rogue to me, give us smoke, dark colours, and even a blur effect to the outline of the armor, THAT would be rogue like.

Isn't our group-stealth in Combat/Sub one of the best things to bring for Challenge Modes?

Its nice, but you can accomplish the same thing usually with invis pots because you can usually only skip a very small number of mobs to hit the required amount. Invis pots also won't let people run into mobs (talking normal non see invis)... not sure if some of the people I did some with never played a stealth class or if AE stealth stealth level is just far lower or both. Now the downside of invis pots is that it eats your potion cooldown.

Nobody cares about pve. Rogues suck in PvP... It's a fact. No rogues on the ladders, nobody wants to play with rogues, they just suck. Unless you're a multi glad or rank 1, you're nowhere to be seen on the ladders

Nobody cares about pve. Rogues suck in PvP... It's a fact. No rogues on the ladders, nobody wants to play with rogues, they just suck. Unless you're a multi glad or rank 1, you're nowhere to be seen on the ladders

I do both pvp and pve, and I can say for a fact that rogues aren't as bad as you think they are. There's no denying that rogues are the worst class in pvp at the moment, but it's pretty balanced overall. There's definitely a home for rogues, part of the problem is that playing a rogue was so faceroll for so long that a lot of the people playing the class up and quit when it became difficult (in pvp, pve rogue rotations are still pretty simplistic).

Nobody cares about pve. Rogues suck in PvP... It's a fact. No rogues on the ladders, nobody wants to play with rogues, they just suck. Unless you're a multi glad or rank 1, you're nowhere to be seen on the ladders

Considering that WoW is a PvE game first and PvP second and that the vast majority of content is based around PvE with just a small portion of the content and even the player base PvP I'd think that a lot of people care about PvE.

Considering that WoW is a PvE game first and PvP second and that the vast majority of content is based around PvE with just a small portion of the content and even the player base PvP I'd think that a lot of people care about PvE.

I've been both a PvE and PvP main at multiple times, the basic point is that balance matters a hell of a lot more in PvP than PvE. Yeah, your numbers might drop a bit in PvE and your e-peen might take a hit, but off-balance PvP ruins the game.

Ever since they gave us glyph of disguise and detection, rogue is fun again. Who cares about pvp/pve performance (which is, arguably, good enough from casual til world firsts) when you can look like a 24 feet mogu colossus? Never mindforked your group in heroic instances by looking like the boss your group intends to mash to a bloody pulp? You have not lived yet!

I do both pvp and pve, and I can say for a fact that rogues aren't as bad as you think they are. There's no denying that rogues are the worst class in pvp at the moment, but it's pretty balanced overall. There's definitely a home for rogues, part of the problem is that playing a rogue was so faceroll for so long that a lot of the people playing the class up and quit when it became difficult (in pvp, pve rogue rotations are still pretty simplistic).

Playing rogue in pvp never got that much harder, they just suck now. Why take a rogue when feral, enh, even ret are so much better. They got nerfed to the ground this patch because they were too good with huntards (which are still op as hell and even more so in 5.4). They are by far the shittiest class in pvp now.

Rogues are always bad, according to the community. Even when they're good, they're bad. Truth is, PEBKAC. There's a lot of people who can't seem to handle rogues in PvE/PvP and so they complain that the class is underpowered, because they can't admit that they're just bad players.

But in all the time I've played this game (since before BC launched) "rogues are bad" has been a common thing on forums. And yeah, maybe there's been a few patches where they've been burned, or a few legit complaints, but it's mostly just bad players.

If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

Rogues are always bad, according to the community. Even when they're good, they're bad. Truth is, PEBKAC. There's a lot of people who can't seem to handle rogues in PvE/PvP and so they complain that the class is underpowered, because they can't admit that they're just bad players.

But in all the time I've played this game (since before BC launched) "rogues are bad" has been a common thing on forums. And yeah, maybe there's been a few patches where they've been burned, or a few legit complaints, but it's mostly just bad players.

I do both pvp and pve, and I can say for a fact that rogues aren't as bad as you think they are. There's no denying that rogues are the worst class in pvp at the moment, but it's pretty balanced overall. There's definitely a home for rogues, part of the problem is that playing a rogue was so faceroll for so long that a lot of the people playing the class up and quit when it became difficult (in pvp, pve rogue rotations are still pretty simplistic).

The problem is not that playing a rogue in pvp became harder, it's the same. The problem is all the freakin aoe and dot crap that EVERYONE has now, we were a hit and run killing machine, now we have to use multiple CDs to accomplish the same thing with mediocre damage. We either need tools to avoid aoe and dots completely or give us more damage. Problem is: the same as they say about tanks. When tanks/rogues have fun, no-one else is.