Posted
by
kdawson
on Tuesday June 10, 2008 @01:18PM
from the trustworthy-loyal-helpful-friendly dept.

Lucas123 writes "The Boy Scouts of America are looking to the open-source community for help in building software to use for fundraisers, special events, and other functions, for their more than 121,000 local scout troops. Some open source advocates, who are former Boy Scouts, support the idea, despite a few reservations. According to the article, there are no plans for a scout merit badge in open source — but there has been a merit badge in computers since 1967, 'and it is possible that if the program is successful, it could eventually be used by IT-savvy scouts themselves.'"

I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.

I think for the most part when you are "different" from a group of people and you elect to be involved with them. That you will be accepted as long as you try to fit in and look for common ground. As opposed to stressing how you are different and they should change who they are, what they have always done, and what they believe so as to make you happy.

I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.

I think for the most part when you are "different" from a group of people and you elect to be involved with them. That you will be accepted as long as you try to fit in and look for common ground. As opposed to stressing how you are different and they should change who they are, what they have always done, and what they believe so as to make you happy.

No, all you have to say is "I am Gay" or "I am an Athiest" and the BSA national organization will say "Hope you enjoy Hell, you're no longer allowed to be a troop leader, buh bye!"

It's not "making waves" or "trying to enforce your beliefs on other people" (as if you could teach someone to be gay, jesus) -- the BSA's stance is that merely being gay or non-Christian means you are not fit to lead children.

They were taken to court and, quite rightly, had their rights to discriminate as a private organization u

Well, as the proverbial card-carrying ACLU member, I certainly support the BSA getting that berth — at a market rate. I'd say the same for any group, including that perennial ACLU client, the American Nazi party.

Oops, I just compared the BSA to the Nazis, didn't I? Godwin strikes again!

While the higher-up organization might make stands on certain issues, it did not reflect my experience. The previous Scout Leader was an Atheist.

The higher-ups don't merely "make stands", they make rules. And the rules say that no scout or scout leader can be an atheist or gay. The fact that nobody ratted on your atheist scout leader speaks well for the people in your troop, but if anybody had, he would have been shown the door.

Let me guess, this was a United Church of Christ congregation? They've gone seriously anti-anti-gay. Many of them have actually stopped performing legal marriages, which I guess is a protest against the fact that same sex couples can't get married. If you want to get married in such a church, they will perform something called a Holy Union, which is available to both gay and straight couples, but which has no legal standing. If you want your marriage legalized, you have to provide your own official to sign the documents: the UCC pastor won't do it.

I'm neither gay nor a Christian. But I find that little bit of civil disobedience rather touching.

What happens is that the Federal Government makes it really easy for employees to donate to charities of their choice by checking a box on their payroll forms each year. There are several hundred funding choices, including Catholic Charities, Muslim charities, and all kinds of private organizations.

Essentially, some congressman thought it would be nice to facilitate giving among the massive and federally bloated work force, but it is entirely the employees choice and is no different than them giving the money directly.

[...]quite rightly, had their rights to discriminate as a private organization upheld.

Point of order on "quite rightly." See, that would be true if they were a private organization that did not accept federal grants. [adn.com] The government requires grant recipients not to discriminate.

As a matter of fact, the BSA isn't against non-Christians. Quite the contrary. The BSA encourages people of all faiths to participate and earn appropriate badges [wikipedia.org]. The BSA, is just anti-atheist.

Except that BSA policy is to either have an atheist swear falsely to a belief in a deity or drop them for being honest.

"Any organization could profit from a 10-year-old member with enough strength of character to refuse to swear falsely." Editorial, New York Times, 1993-DEC-12, commenting on the Boy Scouts' exclusion of a young Atheist.

There is a difference between proselytizing to convert other scouts to atheism and simply affirming that one is an atheist. Unfortunately the BSA sees no such distinction.

A Christian scout who steals, cheats, or fights will be given counseling, and an effort will be made to keep him in the fold provided he poses no imminent threat to others. An atheist scout who lives an exemplary life will be rejected unless he lies about his beliefs. How is this a moral example for young people?

Eh. The older Scouts and adults often end up getting involved with Order of the Arrow, which is by any definition heathenism. You participate in Indian dances, often working with local tribes to learn them. The whole thing is drenched in Indian symbolism and liturgy. I'm not even sure you could consider it monotheism, though it is theistic to some degree. I infer that you think the organization is fundamentalist, but I hope I've demonstrated that it's hardly that simple.

Part of the issue with the article you linked is that the Scouting organization is highly decentralized. Local councils and even troops are pretty autonomous. I know that he wouldn't have been hassled in our local troops, and we're in the middle of the Bible Belt, so it's not fair to tar the entire organization on that one case. The national office will support the council's decision, but they wouldn't interfere if the council ignored it.

Agreed. I also did the Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor thing, and although I turned them down because of my own moral objections to participating in an anti-LGBT activity, I was encouraged to help out with the local scouting organizations despite my sexuality. As in, "they have bigger things to worry about" kind of acceptance.

A Christian scout who steals, cheats, or fights will be given counseling, and an effort will be made to keep him in the fold provided he poses no imminent threat to others. An atheist scout who lives an exemplary life will be rejected unless he lies about his beliefs. How is this a moral example for young people?

It shows that a lying psychopath will get a lot farther in life than an honest paragon. And that's one of the most important lessons in morality you can receive nowadays.

I think you missed the part where atheists had no problems to speak of in the Boy Scouts until about ten years ago. I'm an atheist, and I was in the Boy Scouts. So were many of my friends, also atheists and in the Scouts.

Being an Eagle Scout affords you certain advantages in getting into federal military academies, looks good on a resume, etc. People cite their scouting days in college applications to beneficial effect all the time.

Then the Mormon Church buys them out. Suddenly the organization doesn't just have religious overtones, it kicks kids out that have done nothing wrong aside from having different beliefs. Kids that bully others are talked to, put on probation, or otherwise given a second chance. An atheist kid is told to either lie about something so fundamental to each of us (yeah, great morals there) or get kicked out.

Let's be clear. We're not talking about someone trying to make the other kids into atheists. We're not talking about kids calling press conferences to get the BSA to change the scout oath. We're talking about an organization that changed under our feet and suddenly became a hostile entity.

Imagine you were black, had taken part in an organization that had white supremacy overtones, but everyone laughed it off, treated it like an unfortunate legacy. Imagine all of your experiences and your friendships were a shining moment in your life. Imagine you had taken part in fundraisers and paid dues to this organization.

Now imagine that one day the organization calls you a nigger and forces you out. Imagine the effort and time and money given to this organization, the fruits of your labor, are now forbidden to you and everyone like you.

Now imagine that someone on a random internet message board proclaims that the organization has that right since they always proclaimed white supremacy, but since they've also always received federal funds, your tax dollars continue to help fund the organization that's turned its back on you and everyone else like you.

But I guess that's just belly-aching, isn't it?

You can't hide being black, but you can lie about being an atheist. For a 10 year-old, to stand up and be honest about your beliefs is true strength, no matter what that faith may be. It's far easier to just go with the flow and "blend in."

For the organization, however, the moral issues are the same. Forbidding access to some for who they are rather than what they do is clearly morally reprehensible.

Do you know their significance? Most people don't. They are the reason there's a Black Student Union.

Have you heard the following names? Caesar Chavez? Gregorio Cortez? Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz?

Do you know their significance? Most people don't. They are the reason there's a Latino Student Union.

Have you seen the movie "Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song" or "The Salt of the Earth?" Have you even heard of them?

The reason there is no White Student Union is because we all know who George Washington was. We all know who Napolean was. We all know Descartes, Lewis & Clark, Benjamin Franklin, Robert E. Lee, and Davy Crockett. We learned of them and their significance in high school during US History and World History and Government and English etc.

If you did not know at least half the names I listed earlier in the post, you are getting an inkling of why a Black/Latino Student Union is useful. If you know more than half of the last group, you will be getting why a White Student Union is not.

You are so firmly in a privileged position, you can't even visualize what it's like for others. You think your life is rough because you can't have a club like everyone else. THANK YOUR LUCKY STARS a White Student Union isn't necessary. A Student Union usually implies you are in an assailed position. If the only reason you want a White Student Union is so you and other white kids can hang out with each other and lick each other's wounded pride, that's a problem.

Go to the movie theater. Look at the movies listed. If the cast to a movie is more than 50% black, people usually consider it a "black movie." Ditto for latino. Ditto for east asian. However, take a movie like "Scream." Did you think that was a "white movie?" Of the movies out right now, how many have a non-white lead? One notable exception is the "Harold and Kumar" sequel: a movie all about being stereotyped based on ethnicity.

You're technically right. It's not a merit badge, it's a religious emblem and/or a knot insignia.
It's not required, but it does satisfy requirements to advance in rank.
So it's not a merit badge, it's much flashier (being amedal/pin) and serves the same damn purpose.

I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.

That's a real straw man. With rare exception, atheists and gays are not out to change people's private beliefs and practices. What they do want is to establish equal rights and standing for themselves in the public sphere, and that is a goal we should all be able to stand behind.

It's rather predictable that people would confound a strong stance on atheist/gay rights with rabble-rousing and crass noisemaking, though; after all, that's precisely the same reaction with which all manner of civil rights activists have been received in the past, be they slavery abolitionists, or women's suffragists, or anti-segregationists.

So you're probably correct that the parent poster got by in the BSA without incident by not making noise such as, e.g., refusing to recite the Boy Scouts pledge which commits one to a religious deity. And that's the problem. Until gays and atheists can proclaim themselves as openly as Christians and straights do in any public or semi-public organization, and not be required to pay lip service or deference to the Judeo-Christian worldview -- without being kicked out, or frowned upon, or generally treated as second-class citizens -- then our work is not yet done.

(Fortunately for the parent poster, his local scoutmasters were apparently more tolerant than the national organization: discrimination against gays and atheists is still very much the official policy within the organization.)

There wouldn't be a legal problem with any of this if, as you claim, the Boy Scouts of America were purely a private organization. But that's not the case. They seek out and accept public funding for many of their activities, and chapters have even gone so far as to sue the government [philly.com] when it decides to take the moral and legal high ground and stop subsidizing their exclusionary activities [washingtonpost.com].

Now if the BSA were to stop accepting any public money for their activities, the legal problems would go away. Granted, a private organization that excludes homosexuals is still no less despicable than one which denies Jews or Blacks; I and others would continue to criticize them, in the same way that most people criticize, e.g., the KKK, while fully recognizing their right to express their own views. But the gross injustices to tax-paying atheists and gays are what must be addressed, and they can easily be addressed without interfering with the organization's "moral values".

Hell, even the Boy Scouts of 10 years ago (the group I knew) is not the Boy Scouts of today. The group was inclusive even at that point. It was shortly after I stopped going to meetings regularly that things really started changing for the worse.

I was an atheist boy scout, and I used to get into discussions with the troop leaders about religion on a regular basis. They never made me feel uncomfortable or like I didn't belong.

My experience matches yours. I went all the way from Cub Scouts to earning Eagle while being an atheist. I was never made to feel out of place. It all depends on the local organization. I was lucky enough to be in a troop led by some pretty open-minded people.

My younger son is in Cub Scouts right now; in fact, I'm his den leader. His pack is a little more uptight than mine was as a kid, but that's mostly because of one leader who wants things run absolutely by the book. None of the rest of the leaders particularly care. I don't even think the uptight leader really cares, personally, except that's what the book says.

The way I got through Scouts, and the way that I'm working with my son to get through it, is to stretch the definition of "faith in god" to something a bit more naturalistic. Appreciation of the world around us, belief in a moral center of "good" versus "bad", respect for others. I'm comfortable that we're following the spirit of the faith requirements, even if it's not exactly what the BSA had in mind.

So yeah, I wish the Boy Scouts weren't so anti-atheist and homophobic. Despite that, I still think it's a good program for kids, provided you can find a pack or troop that doesn't obsess over such matters.

I worked all the way through to Eagle Scout. Busted my butt, volunteered a lot, etc. Still try to be an honest, trustworthy guy, and heck, maybe that keeps me from advancing in the selfish-filled Corporate World, but that's a topic for another rant.

I got to my review committee and was *grilled* about my religious convictions, and this in a troop that wasn't particularly religious. My long-stated (and harrassment-inducing) atheism was suddenly a Very Big Problem. My closest advisor finally said something along the lines of, "ok, you don't believe a lot of specifics for any particular sect, but you believe in a higher power God, right? **_RIGHT_**?" with a "yes or you're done, even after a long, committed scouting life" look.

I mumbled some vague affirmatives sheepishly and all seemed satisfied. The topic changed.

I have never felt right about that. Don't think about it often, but now that I have, some ~15-20 years later, it still upsets me. I have always wanted to send in my badges and resign publicly as I wish I had done so on the spot. Maybe I'll go write a letter tonight.

Then again, don't get me started on the ignorant homophobia. This straight, white guy took a *lot* of sh!t for fighting against that. Really always seemed like a lot of closeted/self-denying/ignorant rednecks were leading that hate brigade. But the camping, knives, guns, etc were worth it! (at the time... I guess...)

As an AC has already mentioned, your troop leaders were breaking the rules. I sure there are a lot of people involved in Scouting who are like that. Indeed, tolerance and respect for unusual opinions and orientations would seem to be consistent with the whole Scouting ethos.

But officially speaking the rule is no gays or atheists [bsalegal.org]. And as long as that's the rule, a lot of us are just not going to have anything to do with the BSA, no matter how tolerant some of its individual participants are.

You're beliefs are all fine with me. You're entitled to believe whatever you like.

One thing, however, I must point out. There is a WORLD of difference between a "Flying Spaghetti Monster" on the one side, which is an imaginary creature thought out to produce some laughs, and a "god" on the other, which is an imaginary creature in whose name bloody wars were fought (and are still being fought), which is promoted by a notoriously rich, completely un-democratic, organization practicing brain wash to small c

So, when it comes to instilling values and giving youths something to do, no gays nor atheists nor agnostics. When it comes to getting help from the open source community all of a sudden the help from those who are gay and/or atheist or agnostic is perfectly welcome for giving them some free (as in beer) stuff?

Tell them to go shove it and write their own God-fearing straight-male software.

Simply put, the group got taken over by the Kentucky Fried Christians, and ever since that time, I've been rather ashamed of the organization. There's also the major problem of the fear of litigation getting in the way of the things that were fun/educational/awesome/whatever. We'll not mention the asinine paperwork that just doesn't need to exist.

That said, I do still keep my Eagle Scout card in my wallet after all these years.

They are a youth organization with a charter from congress. They are an acknowledgedmilitary youth auxilliary organization given access to government resources. They arelike a junior version of Sea Cadets or the CAP.

They should be held to at least the same tolerance standards as the Army.

The BSA is NOT a "acknowledgedmilitary youth auxiliary organization". Here's what it is:The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

Now....for some, morals are the same as religion. To other's, they are not. Now, understand this....kids can be anything they want. If a Troop kicked you out because your gay, then they are WRONG. The rules specifically say you cannot be

I'm an Eagle Scout. I don't like the "corporate" stance that the BSA has regarding religion and homosexuality. (Disclaimer: I am a straight, white Christian, for whatever that means to you)

When it gets down to the very small community groups where troops may consist of less than 50 scouts, the leaders are parents of scouts, and so on. This is a model where adults lead and teach children -- frequently the children who need guidance and leadership the very most. I fear that outright rejection is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Penn and Teller's show on the Boy Scouts was fascinating - turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church.

This is particularly true in the Rocky Mountains. My troop (back in the day) went to Colorado for summer camp one year, and the best two weeks of the summer were reserved for LDS (Mormon)-affiliated troops only.

In the South, it's the Southern Baptist Church that dominates the Scouting conversation. My troop wasn't affiliated with a church (the scoutmasters were largely atheist/agnostic), and thus had some rather interesting struggles (finding meeting locations, getting feeder relationships with Cub Scout packs).

My knowledge of Scouting in the Midwest is rather shaky, as my only contact with it was with a Methodist-associated troop (as was my original troop, from which my agnostic one split mostly because the original troop grew far too large to be managable). That said, I remember a more developed outdoors program than in my native part of the South. I don't know what things are like on the coasts.

turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church.

Thats probably because almost every stake (area of church buildings) has there own BSA troop. When you add up how many LDS churches there are, and that many of the young male members join the BSA troop for there stake - you get a large amount of membership funding.

As for homosexuality, I have no problem with homosexuality, but I still approve of the Boy Scouts' stance on it. Scouting is an institution that helps boys grow up to be men. It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women

You sure are.1. and idiot,2. a bigot.3. just plain wrong.I have a friend that was a Pack leader and then involved with Scouts for years. He is a kinda Buddist. They often help the meetings at the LDS church. He told me he always felt welcomed there. Most troops outside of Utah/Idaho and the rest of the Mountain west are not Mormon.

In Utah of course the majority of Scouts are Mormon if for no other reason most of the people are.

And yes I am a Mormon and I don't hate none Mormons. Not even people like you.

When did all of this change? I honestly don't remember all this crap on either side when I was in it.

I was a Boyscout from '96 to '00. I went camping almost every month. I've been to Philmont. Boyscout camp every summer. I think I've learned more from that organization about live than anywhere else. I have a camp stove and fuel in my car. When I drove from LA to IN and IN to DC after graduation to 'see the country'. I would regularly eat pasta or any thing else I could cook up. (Get some eggs/bacon and have a proper breakfast instead of McDonalds).

I learned to blow things up properly. I can set up a tent in the dark (and now half drunk). I can build a fire using a single match and stuff I gathered. I know what bark to look for for starting fire after the rain. I can cook with cast iron (and at home I use nothing else). For competition we'd boil eggs in paper cups (paper won't burn below the water line). Carried sleds on years global warming made Klondikes suck. Snow shoe, canoe, swim, shoot, high rope climb, I could go on.

When I went to college I ran into some "city boys" that had no clue how to start a fire.

Their idea was gasoline (stupid, diesel is better) and a torch. I suppose it would have worked, but there's a finesse in starting fires with a single match, or a bow drill, or flint and steel. It's like doing in assembly what some people use Java for.

The only thing was our local troop met in the basement of a Methodist church.

I can't wait until I have sons so I can get back into scouting (if they're interested).

I suppose towards the end of my tenure we got a new Scoutmaster. No more fires over X size. We bought those Walmart popup rain flies instead of using the WWII ones that took 12 guys to setup. (And lasted 80 years longer than the walmart ones). Sort of killed it for me, plus all my friends were a year older and when they left not as entertaining. And the biggest thing that killed it was council 'from the top' decree that Camouflage was banned. How were you supposed to properly hide during capture the flag?

Using the word "homophobia" in regard to a legal choice to beleive(sic) one's religion is HATE speech... Referring to religion as mythology is also HATE speech.

Nonsense. It's just accurate reporting. Religion is mythology. Stories. There are no facts whatsoever behind those stories in the important areas (specifically the existence of deities.) There is no more basis in reason for believing in a deity than there is for believing in the tooth fairy, unless you count peer pressure as a legitimate force

The irony is, you're declining because they aren't "inclusive", and yet using wording that is also not "inclusive". So, you're free to say those things, but you are being illogical and hypocritical.

You're confusing irony (admittedly a difficult concept for many people) with liberty. They're free to refuse anyone they like, for any reason they like. I'm free to do the same. They are doing so. I am doing so. Nothing ironic about it at all.

I doubt I've read a more desperate or idiotic ploy. Religion and mythology are the same thing. A non-believer such as yourself doesn't believe in the Greek myths and as such you term them "mythology", do you not? You might think your religion is special, and you have a right to, but until you also think Muslims and Buddhists and Zoroastrians and Neopagans are equally special, then how can you profess not to be an unbeliever--of their "mythology"--just

2. The Spanish Inquisition. Took place in the 19th century.
3. Jewish Blood Libel. Not sure what you mean by this.
4. Forced Conversion of Conquered Peoples. And when, pray tell, was the last time this happened?
5. Abortion Clinic Bombings/Murders of Doctors. Please. This has no more bearing on Christianity as a whole than Muslim terrorists have on Islam as a whole. The actions of a few extremists do not condemn an entire group.

Sounds to me like you're the one without a sense of scale. The things you mentioned are either a) so far in the past, they're irrelevant to the character of today's Christians, or b) the actions of a small segment of the population. By your logic, Americans are all bad people because we have a few rapists and murderers.

Public funds may be used in the private sector. The government, for example, provides funding to churches (and yes, many of these churches also do not allow homosexuals in their chain of leadership and "pander" religion), whichout them suddenly becoming government entities.

"respecting" religion isn't important at all. Tolerating it on my part, you could perhaps make an argument for, but respecting... not likely. Respect needs to be earned. Tolerance (as long as other's liberties are not interfered with) is an obligation born of freedom.

There's quite a gulf between religion, which is largely made up of systems for trying to influence what people of dissimilar outlooks (religious and otherwise) think through the promotion of myths, as compared to healthy sexuality, which is

It's a patch, not a badge. It may sound like nitpicking, but they really are different. A patch is a little something you can put on your uniform that your local BSA council can make up on the spot, usually with little or no supervision that you did anything. A merit badge is a nationally approved badge with certified councilors and a constant paper trail. It's a hell of a lot easier to make a badge than a patch.

The Boy Scouts still discriminate against atheists and homosexuals. They're also a huge organization with no shortage of cash, and they're infiltrated by ultra-conservative Mormons and other Jesus freaks [about.com]. They're just looking for something for free. Fuck 'em.

According to Wikipedia:"The Boy Scouts of America's position is that atheists and agnostics cannot participate as Scouts (youth members) or Scouters (adult leaders). According to the Bylaws of the BSA, Declaration of Religious Principle:

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

And:"Since 1991, openly gay adults have been officially prohibited from joining the Boy Scouts of America. A 1991 Position Statement states: "We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts." The BSA thus "believes that a known or avowed homosexual is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law."

The language used to describe the BSA's policies on homosexuals has evolved over time. Prior to 2004, the policy stated:

"We do not allow for the registration of avowed homosexuals as members or as leaders of the BSA."

In 2004, the BSA adopted a new policy statement:

"Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutingâ(TM)s values and beliefs."

So, there is clearly institutionalized discrimination. The Girl Scouts of America, however, do not discriminate on the basis of sexuality or (lack of) religion.

My kid was told that he couldn't join, because he said that he didn't believe in their "supreme being". One scout leader, high example of morality that they are, told him to "just lie", but he would not. I should support a group like this?

It's so weird how the BSA has, (or not) become some kind of religious group. Back in the mid-80's in central California I was a member of Cub Scouts for 4 years and a Boy Scout little over 2 years and have zero recollection of anything religion-like being part of the experience. We didn't even pray before meals. We played Dungeons and Dragons on camp outs and listened to Pink Floyd and learned wilderness survival, hunting and fishing and read Popular Mechanics magazine and built stuff. The experience was co

You know what I told my child to do? (You are wrong.) Your child is not mature enough to make such choices for himself? On the other hand, by just keeping "that private", you support and strengthen a society wide system of discrimination against those who choose reason over religious babble. I don't go out of my way to tell others my beliefs, my kid doesn't either, and, in fact I've never even had an atheist ring my doorbell and try to tell me about science, but I've had plenty of religious wackos who seem to see a need to knock on my door and tell me their religious belief, as well as some Boy Scouts asking for my support. I don't advocate aggressively spreading my belief, but I certainly consider it moral cowardice to keep one's belief quite when asked, just to keep things "convenient".

Everyone has the right to withhold their help from ANY organization whose ideals or methods they don't agree with, and I'll be the first one to support that expression of your beliefs. However, all that I've found the Boy Scouts do is stand on their expressed belief system. They don't agree with homosexuality, and they believe in God, but I've yet to see them march against homosexuality or bbeat children that were found to be Athiest. Please make sure you don't label "disagreement" the same thing as "hatemongering". Everyone has a right to disagree; no one has the right to prosecute another for their beliefs, as long as those beliefs don't infringe upon the rights of another.
Withhold or provide your support as you see fit, but don't think that just because someone doesn't agree with you that means they hate you.
As for the MPAA...there's no real defense on that one. Sorry, LA Scout branch: that was simply stupid. Teach your kids not to steal ANYTHING; don't limit your lessons to music and movies.

Please make sure you don't label "disagreement" the same thing
as "hatemongering".

Another well-known "club" has a set of beliefs (based on the same
book, ironically enough) whereby they don't allow blacks and Jews
to join. Would you call their stance "hatemongering" or "disagreement"?

I'm a strong Libertarian, a professional Linux programmer, _and_ a Sunday School teacher. My church (Unity) is Christian, while openly accepting gays and atheists / agnostics.

Our old pastor was an Eagle Scout, but wouldn't allow us to sponsor a Scout Troop because of the homosexuality issue. Our new pastor is fine with us sponsoring a Scout Troop.

I am 100% in agreement with the sentiments of all the other posts in this article, namely disgust with the BSA's infiltration by Mormons, pandering to the MPAA/RIAA, and prejudice against gays and non-Christians.

Why then, you may be asking, would I still spend time and effort sponsoring a Scout Troop? Because it's the BEST WE'VE GOT. Go ahead, show me a comparably mature organization offering the structure young men need with free access to all of the campground and other facilities.

There are students in my Sunday School class that we've lost to juvie or worse, tragedies that could have been avoided if there was something equivalent to a Scout Troop available. Even if we ran into problems with forming an official BSA Troop, we were going to create the non-BSA equivalent (Unity Scouts or something).

Lastly, you can be damned certain we'll be teaching the kids good principles, not the gay-bashing or whatever most/.'ers seem to think is the only thing possible.

I say the FOSS movement should step up to bat on this one to show we're not petty, angry little children like most of the comments I've seen so far.

-AC

(Note: I'm only posting as AC to protect the identities of Church members and children.)

Given they're already partnering with the MPAA [arstechnica.com] for "Respect Copyrights" patches, surely they should be their first port of call rather than those evil open source pirates?

When literature for your merit badges contains text like, "There are peer to peer groups who offer legal downloads and those who offer illegal downloads. Make a list of both. Suggest ways to detect peer to peer software like the MPAA Parent File Scan." it would be kind of hypocritical to then advocate software that's liable to be built off the kinds of tools, by the kinds of evil people, another badge already warns about.

A huge part of the BSA is a great and honorable institution. But when it comes to institutionalizing homophobia, forcing religious beliefs and teaming up with corporate entities that demonize whole communities, it's probably not the best time to go asking for those communities for help.

I was a boyscout. I was in it since graduating Cub scouts and stayed in until venture scouts. While not getting my eagle, I was very active and did a lot.

Boy scouts to me was all about hanging out with my friends, going camping, going backpacking, shooting guns, making lashing structures, sailing, swimming, cooking, basket weaving, learning first aid and emergency prep, knot tying, metal working and a whole host of other things. Boy scouts was where I was introduced to DnD, the best thing to play when your'e out in the wilderness with absolutely no electricity and only your imagination. It was a wonderful experience, now as an adult my fellow scouts are my best friends and the scoutmasters are revered mentors. It helped me grow into a Man, and if I have a boy I will more than likely enroll him.

The point is, our troop was nothing more than boys and their dads. We don't have some clergy like the church ruling our actions. In fact the scout leaders FORCED us to do EVERYTHING. We planned the trips, the meals, the transportation, the meetings, the lessons. They merely assisted and guided. What this means is that all the talk I hear now of homophobia and anti-atheist discrimination is a kind of surprise. It NEVER came up in my troop, I'd say a good majority of them weren't associated with any religion.

The troop's views are the sum of its constituents. It's not that The Boy Scouts are passing down from on high that no gay kids are allowed. Hell I think we had at least one in our troop. Did it make a difference? No, the whole thing was about having fun, not excluding people.

I'm sure that the troops that make the news with this, and the top level administration pandering to their evangelical base are simply made up of people who think homosexuality is a sin and atheists are immoral. Don't forget a good portion of America DOES think this. It's a reflection of a portion of the population.

So know, that yes there are liberal troops out there that don't concern themselves with exclusion, only with the boys and making their lives better. I'm a testament to it, and I'm certain there's hundreds others like me. As time rolls the general views of America's population will change, and then so will the Scouts. Until then, denying them them help, when helping would teach an excellent lesson is unecessarily mean. I know that I will try to help if this project comes around. All the boys don't deserve to be punished for what wrong people say.

So even if individual troops overlook these rules, they do so in direct opposition to the rules. I don't know about you, but I see no reason to support an organization that dismisses me due to its own ignorant definition of "immoral."

What you're failing to account for is the fact that the rules of BSA state that these people simply cannot be a part of the organization

What you're failing to understand is that a local troop's interactions with the BSA are practically nil.

Any large organization will have its share of idiotic nutjobs, especially in positions of bureaucratic authority. The question is whether the organization is so corrupt and inflexible that one does a greater wrong by engagement or by disengagement. This is a case where, for anyone not entirely ignorant of that actual character and values of actual troops in the actual world, it is obvious that engagem

So even if individual troops overlook these rules, they do so in direct opposition to the rules. I don't know about you, but I see no reason to support an organization that dismisses me due to its own ignorant definition of "immoral."

Your choice. But if you ever have a son, I highly encourage you to let him be involved in scouts. The activities of most troops have nothing to do with sexual orientation or belief in God, and it's a great opportunity for boys to learn self-reliance, leadership, and have a lot of great fun.

As an Eagle scout, a scout leader, and parent of a cub scout and a boy scout, I'd like to kick in my.02 cents.

Our group is sponsored by a church. I don't recall us every having a prayer, or any religious leader saying anything about god. Our group is very inclusive, and I would say that most of our group has little involvement in religion. We just use the church.

I think our scouts get a lot out of the program. They are out camping once a month. They take extended wilderness trips. They learn skills they can use in many areas of their life, including how to deal with adults, how to deal with other difficult kids, and how to lead kids. We do a lot of service projects, and our troop probably as a group does several thousand hours of service for the community - and very little of that is done for the church where we have our meetings.

Maybe there are troops out there that push the agenda, and are right wing homophobes. But it's not our group. Even my wife, who thought boy scouts was a truly evil group, has come around to think the program is very worthwhile.

It's the local people that make it work. Donate your time to THEM if you like, don't if you don't want to.

I remember a requirement for the computers merit badge was to explain why it is wrong to make copies of games and commercial software. I wasn't fooled for a moment that the argument of piracy destroying software was valid, so I said something along the lines of paying for software that makes your business operate makes more sense than gaming companies losing over casual piracy.

My friends and I would distribute games where everyone pays for the games they individually contribute. We just end up buying more games and learning about games we wouldn't have known about while buying future games from the same publisher/developer. Our kid money didn't carry the same weight as adults with full-time jobs (and less time to play as many games as we did), so it only made sense to pool together to maximize our gaming dollar. Despite the technical occurrences of piracy, all the money that sierra, lucasarts, bullfrog, interplay, electronic arts, sega, and nintendo (to name but a few) got from us certainly didn't hurt them any.

For my two cents, I don't think that the BSA's homosexual discrimination policy is particularly brave [usscouts.org].

I would be glad to help the Boy Scouts, if they will change their discrimination policy and allow me to register again.
I was a scout, and then a scouter, for more than 15 years before the BSA made the policy that gay people may not be members. I have not registered since.

They don't actually forbid gay people from registering. The actual policy only forbids honest gay people from registering. If a gay adult is willing to lie and stay "in the closet", it's ok. Of course, the actual implementation differs from the policy significantly. Most councils have periodic "witch hunts", in which even closeted gay men are expelled.

Open gays are excluded in scouting because inherently it becomes sexuality issue. A leader who discusses sex issues at a scouting meeting or function should be removed. Scouting is not the forum for "discovering" one's sexual identity. If I were to say in a scout meeting, "I really enjoyed banging my wife last night," I'd be thrown out.

Wow, you have a funny definition of "openly gay". Funny in the sense of "bigoted".

I'm openly heterosexual. My wife and kids come visit me at work. I kiss her goodbye when she leaves. It's obvious I am heterosexual. At no point do I talk to my coworkers or children about sex.

A person who is openly gay, is not by definition talking about sex anymore than I am. It means they are not in the closet.