Well they'll keep making them until our society is shaken out of apathy and actually realises what Hell has been unleashed upon the world and does something about it, rather than simply switch off the news because it puts them off their dinner.

On the other hand, if war is so terrible, why don't these multi-billion dollar studios do something practical instead of making films about such tragic events?

Hotel Rwanada, Pearl Harbour, Syriana, Apocalypse Now and all that other stuff- yes I lumped in films of varying quality there- but all they do is line the pockets of wealthy producers and fat-egoed stars and make out like these profit-obsessed fuckers actually give a damn about the subject matter beyond the extent they could win an oscar and sell the DVD into the record books.

Art reflects life. This I accept. What 'art' shouldn't do is mimic it, but a heartfelt string soundtrack behind it, stick in a couple of big star names and give money to people who actually further the engine of destruction rather than help stop it.

I'm sick of the apathy of the audience, and I'm sick of the arrogance and self-importance of the film makers.

Looks extremely impressive and having read the book I know full well that Flags is not a combat movie in the manner of Saving Private Ryan. It's actually an incredibly grim and harrowing account of how three men became caught up in the patriotic mythology surrounding the famous photo of the flag-raising and how that affected their lives. It's about the anguish felt by the survivors of Iwo Jima and how that can only be understood by other soldiers and the unbridgeable gulf between the horrific reality they experienced and the heroic image the public wants to believe. In short, it's a movie aimed squarely at adults and Eastwood's companion piece which focuses on the doomed defence of Iwo Jima led by General Kuribyashi (Ken Watanabe), shot almost entirely in native Japanese (there are only three or four English speaking parts in the entire film), looks to be equally compelling. Eastwood turned 76 earlier ths year. His ambition and skill is quite remarkable. No wonder his peers regard him as the greatest American director currently working.

Very impressive.Spielberg has a lot to answer for after Saving Private Ryan though,as this is yet another bleach-bypass,washed-out War movie.A minor quibble though,and Eastwood is on fire these days.Should be a humdinger.

Well I'd rather watch a war movie than be in one. Believe me. My father, who never went to the cinema but went to war as an eighteen year old asked me if he could watch "Saving Private Ryan." He was not on the landings but was in the glider assaults.He fought for six months before being shot several times in the legs and then was saved from bleeding to death by German medics who bandaged him and left him under a tree with a packet of cigarettes.He couldn't watch any war films ever because he said they were all trash and garbage and always had problems watching anything "make- believe."The "Special Effects" of being in it never left him.Ever. So I am grateful to the likes of Spielberg and maybe Clint for showing us the "real " effects of war, so that we who have never been in one and never shall be I hope, can see that such senseless slaughter never happens again.I learned more about my father watching that film with him than I did in all the years living under his roof.Why he hated war and the things it forced him to do.That the man you point your gun at with the aim of ending his life is a man facing the same dilema ,because that is what he is told to do,for the military advantage of those that govern him.Great filmmakers tell the harsh and cruel truths about war without political spin.They show it without the lies. So I actually think film studios have done a great deal to promote the anti-war sentiment of people at governments.Look at how many people in Hollywood actually came out against Bush for his policies and bravely too in a media where your survival depends on popularity.I think they helped us avoid Nuclear war because film actively promoted how terrible the results would be and how unwinnable the outcome for all was.And I guess the politicians are slowly learning that as a fact.We don't want death and destruction .We want trade, understanding and the freedom to watch our films in peace.It pays to be reminded of our bloody mistakes so we don't ever let them repeat them for us.

Well I'd rather watch a war movie than be in one. Believe me. My father, who never went to the cinema but went to war as an eighteen year old asked me if he could watch "Saving Private Ryan." He was not on the landings but was in the glider assaults.He fought for six months before being shot several times in the legs and then was saved from bleeding to death by German medics who bandaged him and left him under a tree with a packet of cigarettes.He couldn't watch any war films ever because he said they were all trash and garbage and always had problems watching anything "make- believe."The "Special Effects" of being in it never left him.Ever. So I am grateful to the likes of Spielberg and maybe Clint for showing us the "real " effects of war, so that we who have never been in one and never shall be I hope, can see that such senseless slaughter never happens again.I learned more about my father watching that film with him than I did in all the years living under his roof.Why he hated war and the things it forced him to do.That the man you point your gun at with the aim of ending his life is a man facing the same dilema ,because that is what he is told to do,for the military advantage of those that govern him.Great filmmakers tell the harsh and cruel truths about war without political spin.They show it without the lies. So I actually think film studios have done a great deal to promote the anti-war sentiment of people at governments.Look at how many people in Hollywood actually came out against Bush for his policies and bravely too in a media where your survival depends on popularity.I think they helped us avoid Nuclear war because film actively promoted how terrible the results would be and how unwinnable the outcome for all was.And I guess the politicians are slowly learning that as a fact.We don't want death and destruction .We want trade, understanding and the freedom to watch our films in peace.It pays to be reminded of our bloody mistakes so we don't ever let them repeat them for us.

Thanks Mr C.I did not mean it to be as strong as it was but I find that lump "everyone in the same basket" log mentally highly inflammatory and dangerous. Broad statements like that start conflicts but do not resolve them. The arguement was pitifully weak-if you wish to go for an industry that makes billions out of the death of human beings try the Arms manufacturers.I'm sure the person concerned will find somebody there to listen to his constructive opinion,he can even start a blog about it. He has every right to his views and there is a small amount of truth in some of what he says but to paint everyone with the same brush weakens his case and credibility.So far I've really enjoyed all the diverse opinon and arguments on this forum.Its great that everyone can have so many differing film favourites and it is heartening to find that generations can respound to many great films in the same way.It makes us all individuals and all the more interesting for it.You can never get bored with a good argument!!!I like films because they do so much to lift our dreams and imagination and our spirits.So keep them coming.The only ones that will do well and put all that lovely loot in the studio pockets are ones WE want to see and they generally reflect our tastes and I have to say so far they are getting better all the time.Anyway I'm off to watch Lost now.When I can understand that then I will know the universe!!!!

looks pretty impressive,although is'nt it about time to give the brits a go in a decent war movie??world war two(yes we were in that)falklands,or mabey a gulf war flick???

I totally agree with you.It's about time the Brits were celebrated as heroes in war movies again.I think it was Timon who suggested a new Battle Of Britain movie on some other thread,that would be great,or El Alamein...Long overdue...

ORIGINAL: danbo1138 looks pretty impressive,although is'nt it about time to give the brits a go in a decent war movie??world war two(yes we were in that)falklands,or mabey a gulf war flick???

I'm all for that but tales of British heroism shouldn't be Hollywood's responsibility (if that's what you're implying). These are our stories, from our culture and we should be the ones making them. If we don't we've got nobody to blame but ourselves. The hypocritical 'criticisms' of Saving Private Ryan 'sidelining' the Brits struck me as nothing more than national envy that the Yanks could get a film like this off the ground and we couldn't. Still, at least with Flags Of Our Fathers not even the usual 'Hollywood rewrites History' brigade will be able to claim there were any Brits at Iwo Jima.

i know where your coming from,but i never stated that i wanted and americanised brit movie,thats your presumption!there are plenty of british directors that are up to the job.i was thinking mabey Neil Marshal of dog soliders fame and the excellent decent would do a splendid job,after all we don't need hollywood to make a good horror movie do we?or what of ridley scott(alien,thelma and louise,kingdom of heaven and a little known war flick served by the name of BLACK HAWK DOWN)who the americans seemed more than happy to employe in order to bring one of their recent missions to life,or pehaps Martin Cambel who helmed goldeneye,and the upcoming CASINO ROYAL i could go on.............

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Come against me, if you dare! I am the storm! Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn!

I'm gonna get political on ya'll for a sec. I'm a Brit that lives in Japan and I have to say it never ceases to amaze me how little Japanese people know about WWII. There is continuing controversy between Korea,China and Japan about what Japan puts in their history books for children. Many people under the age of forty here know little about what the Japanese army did in Asia, the reason being, in their school history books they write such things as 'Japan went into to Manchuria and South East Asia to liberate the people from oppressive regimes'. Can you believe that shit? Small wonder China and Korea go ape shit. Just imagine if they printed a similar sort of thing in Germany 'The armies of the Third Reich went into Europe to help oppressed Germans living there'. There'd be fucking uproar,we'd never hear the end of it.

So why can the Japanese get away with it? Here's my take on it a)they were killling non-whites in Asia,so who gives a fuck b)they're (Japan) an American colony and are the USA's little workshop,providing 90% of the technology for US military. So who cares what they write aslong as they keep providing those smart bombs. c)the Japanese are ferocious consumers and if any anti-Japanese sentiment is stired up,the japanese will be to frightened to go and shop abroad and that'll hurt trade and investment.

this last point is important in many ways because Japan are the biggest cinema going audience after the states with far fewer cinemas here (ie the movie going is alot more intense). So if anything portrays them as evil doers they may not turn up to watch. Not good for business. So when Clint Eastwood came to Japan he visited with the Gov. Tokyo, one Mr. Ishihara, a staunch nationalist with an insane hate for the Chinese and Koreans, so Clint promised mr.Ishihara that he would not portray the Japanese army negatively..so expect shit loads of soft lighting and camera angles to make Tojo's boys look extra noble.

ORIGINAL: Bobby197 So when Clint Eastwood came to Japan he visited with the Gov. Tokyo, one Mr. Ishihara, a staunch nationalist with an insane hate for the Chinese and Koreans, so Clint promised mr.Ishihara that he would not portray the Japanese army negatively..so expect shit loads of soft lighting and camera angles to make Tojo's boys look extra noble.

Eastwood didn't say any such thing. Ishihara asked him to respect the war sites on Iwo Jima which is where scenes for both movies were shot. Please don't spin the line that Eastwood is turning into some sort of apologist for Jap war crimes. You'll only make yourself look a fool in the end.

ORIGINAL: Bobby197 So when Clint Eastwood came to Japan he visited with the Gov. Tokyo, one Mr. Ishihara, a staunch nationalist with an insane hate for the Chinese and Koreans, so Clint promised mr.Ishihara that he would not portray the Japanese army negatively..so expect shit loads of soft lighting and camera angles to make Tojo's boys look extra noble.

Eastwood didn't say any such thing. Ishihara asked him to respect the war sites on Iwo Jima which is where scenes for both movies were shot. Please don't spin the line that Eastwood is turning into some sort of apologist for Jap war crimes. You'll only make yourself look a fool in the end.

Yes I agree. We havent had enough "War Is Quite Fluffy and Lully Really Isnt It, In Fact It's A Chance To Travel The World And Play Tricks On Your Commerades While Laughing And Eating Ice Cream On The Beach At Weymouth" movies.

ORIGINAL: Bobby197 So when Clint Eastwood came to Japan he visited with the Gov. Tokyo, one Mr. Ishihara, a staunch nationalist with an insane hate for the Chinese and Koreans, so Clint promised mr.Ishihara that he would not portray the Japanese army negatively..so expect shit loads of soft lighting and camera angles to make Tojo's boys look extra noble.

Eastwood didn't say any such thing. Ishihara asked him to respect the war sites on Iwo Jima which is where scenes for both movies were shot. Please don't spin the line that Eastwood is turning into some sort of apologist for Jap war crimes. You'll only make yourself look a fool in the end.

I read it in a Japanese newspaper and that's what it said...okay!!

Well let's just say that something's gotten lost in translation.

I really don't believe for a moment that Ishihara asked Eastwood to rewrite history in the way you're suggesting and I think it's inconceivable that Eastwood would agree to that. Here's a link to a rather more reliable account of the meeting between Eastwood and Ishihara. As you can see it really doesn't square with your interpretation:

Nor does this excerpt from a 2005 TIME article which says of the Iris Yamashita/Paul Haggis script for Letters:

'Yamashita's script is much more relentlessly cruel [than Flags]. In essence the Japanese officers compelled the bravery (and suicide) of their troops at gunpoint. Only the Japanese commander Gen. Kuribyashi, and a fictional conscript Saigo, whose fate Yamashita intertwines with his commanding officer's, demonstrate anything like humanity as a Westerner might understand it.'

'Watanabe said that researching the film made him confront Japan's war history and often left him feeling depressed. We have to look at it and accept the fact that this is what our fathers and grandfathers have actually done," he said. "Accepting the reality is the first step."

I'm very excited by this film and it's sister film Red Sun, Black Sand and can't help but think this is a very bold step for Eastwood.

I'm expecting Flags Of Our Fathers to be very brutal in its visuals as we've come to expect from war films ever since Spielberg all shell shocked us with Saving Private Ryan but rather than being another by the numbers war film or even a recruitment film (like John Wayne's Sands of Iwo Jima used as a propaganda piece by the Marine Corp during Vietnam), I expect Flags to show the true trauma in being portrayed as an national hero and an icon of history when you only view yourself as a normal man especially when some many of your comrades didn't make it and they were as brave as you.

Eastwood has chosen an impressive cast choosing solid actors rather than superstars and I think this a good move as it will make us embrace the characters and the fact that this is a true story rather than playing "Spot the famous face."

Red Sun, Black Sand though is going to be a very different affair I feel and most likely not the war film many of us are used to seeing. Whether you accept it or not, the Japanese did committ atrocites during the war on par with the Germans. Their actions in China defy belief but unlike the Nazis, the Japanese have never really had to face up to their actions. You can put this down to industrial and political reasons but the fact of the matter is that Japanese culture then and to some extent now is ENTIRELY different from Western culture.

Japan has always been a feudal society where actions are taken for the good of the whole rather than the individual be it a village, buisness or a country. This was true during the war. The Japanese commanders were very strict about holding their ground and as an extent many Japanese troops were killed in the Pacific campaign but their steadfast actions took as many Allied lives. The whole Japanese discipline of honour is hard to understand and comprehend. Sacrificing your life for your country was seen as a given. At the time Japan was a very nationalistic and to some extent racist society and while the country has come to some sort of terms over their actions during the war, it's fair to say that they have not had the same war guilt put upon them as Germany has.

I think its very brave of actor like Ken Wannabe to make this film and I see it as a positive step to some sort of acceptance for Japan. Whether the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese or former American POWs feel the same way is another matter but I have no doubt that out of the two films Red Sun, Black Sea will be the more poignant and better film.

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"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

ORIGINAL: Bobby197 So when Clint Eastwood came to Japan he visited with the Gov. Tokyo, one Mr. Ishihara, a staunch nationalist with an insane hate for the Chinese and Koreans, so Clint promised mr.Ishihara that he would not portray the Japanese army negatively..so expect shit loads of soft lighting and camera angles to make Tojo's boys look extra noble.

Eastwood didn't say any such thing. Ishihara asked him to respect the war sites on Iwo Jima which is where scenes for both movies were shot. Please don't spin the line that Eastwood is turning into some sort of apologist for Jap war crimes. You'll only make yourself look a fool in the end.

I read it in a Japanese newspaper and that's what it said...okay!!

Well let's just say that something's gotten lost in translation.

I really don't believe for a moment that Ishihara asked Eastwood to rewrite history in the way you're suggesting and I think it's inconceivable that Eastwood would agree to that. Here's a link to a rather more reliable account of the meeting between Eastwood and Ishihara. As you can see it really doesn't square with your interpretation:

Nor does this excerpt from a 2005 TIME article which says of the Iris Yamashita/Paul Haggis script for Letters:

'Yamashita's script is much more relentlessly cruel [than Flags]. In essence the Japanese officers compelled the bravery (and suicide) of their troops at gunpoint. Only the Japanese commander Gen. Kuribyashi, and a fictional conscript Saigo, whose fate Yamashita intertwines with his commanding officer's, demonstrate anything like humanity as a Westerner might understand it.'

'Watanabe said that researching the film made him confront Japan's war history and often left him feeling depressed. We have to look at it and accept the fact that this is what our fathers and grandfathers have actually done," he said. "Accepting the reality is the first step."

ORIGINAL: Bobby197I'm humble enough and noble enough to accept when some one has beaten me..I concede. But I did read it in a Japanese newspaper (in Japanese) albeit one with nationalistic leanings.

Well if you're in Japan I'm rather envious because that means you'll be getting to see both movies before UK audiences do (likely US audiences as well). Btw, the US trailer for Flags Of Our Fathers debuts in US cinemas and online tomorrow for just three days exclusively at military.com.