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Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

thinking politically there is a third way , authoritarianism , that is neither left nor right . Amusingly historically the most abusive of their own citizenry entirely internally historically would be Stalin and Hitler , the most left and the most right , and recently George Bush in the US And Tony Blair in the UK , again left and rather severely right . Thinking generally socially we will let the authoritarian left get away without a ripple with things we would never let the right get away with : was thinking the closed-circuit police TVs in London , if they had been put there under a conservative government there would have been a revolution . Things we would never let the right get away with .

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

History again . Harry S Truman founded the CIA and NSA , the Korean War , effectively started the Cold War , was the only person in history to actually use nuclear weapons , overthrew the democratically-elected leader of Iran and set up someone else and SAVAK the Iranian CIA . But he was a democrat . With dimples . The failed haberdasher from St. Jo Missouri .

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by csb999

History again . Harry S Truman founded the CIA and NSA , the Korean War , effectively started the Cold War , was the only person in history to actually use nuclear weapons , overthrew the democratically-elected leader of Iran and set up someone else and SAVAK the Iranian CIA . But he was a democrat . With dimples . The failed haberdasher from St. Jo Missouri .

Truman never lived in St. Joseph ... kinda kills your factual argument .. not sure why you're talking about Truman anyway. I have not yet watched the video.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

What does it tell me?

It tells me that no matter who now is in the oval office, the US has essentially lost its moral compass and that having sown the seeds of bitter resentment and lust for revenge around the world...is now so consumed with protecting fortress America that it now openly uses the very same tools that the regimes it professes to hate do. It tells me that the Pentagon and Halliburton are still reaping the obscene profits of conflict while fomenting rebellion, revolution and fundamentalist extremism around the globe.

It tells me that after the staggering failure of the Iraq war, that the US is now smart enough to know that it can no longer spend itself rich by bankrupting the taxpayer to finance another disastrous Halliburton/Cheney/Rumsfeld type war and so now must resort to the more practical and economical weapons in the arsenal like drones.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Have you given any thought at all as to why every thread you start needs to be an insult to the other posters on this forum? It undercuts the credibility of your arguments from the outset.

Every fucking time.

Give your axe a rest. No matter how much you grind away, the edge is always dulled when you do this.

My thoughts exactly. it is almost like the anit-immigrant argument that invades every single thread.

I have said a million times over on here that we need to be more of what we actually are instead of pretending we are this nation of peace. We have been a nation at war and guiding war since our founding. I don't see it changing. This just means we don't die in our wars.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by loki81

between GWB and Obama, I genuinely wonder if they've created more terrorists than they've killed.

It is easy to think that but honestly the wave was coming. An entire generation blames us for their very existence in poverty BEFORE the two wars. Never mind their dictator leadership that live like the richest kings in the universe. The only thing the war did was create a place for those with beef to meet our soldiers. Now they will come here.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by JayHawk

My thoughts exactly. it is almost like the anit-immigrant argument that invades every single thread. I have said a million times over on here that we need to be more of what we actually are instead of pretending we are this nation of peace. We have been a nation at war and guiding war since our founding. I don't see it changing. This just means we don't die in our wars.

Yeah just like being anti immigrant Many here make excuses for Obama and support or overlook things he does that would otherwise not beThat's not debatable So move along and come back with something more real Scahill is a serious progressive with credibility And I respect his POVWhile supporting the drone program - just one of his "dirty war" issues

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by chance1

Yeah just like being anti immigrant Many here make excuses for Obama and support or overlook things he does that would otherwise not beThat's not debatable So move along and come back with something more real Scahill is a serious progressive with credibility And I respect his POVWhile supporting the drone program - just one of his "dirty war" issues

Well it is a good thing folks like you and the immigrant hater aren't ever going to have any sort of power in this country isn't it...

Our path is set.

Who ya goona vote for next time... the warring democrat or the peaceful dove republican... lol

We should just rename CEP 'Naivete in all its forms'.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Please feel free to read anything I have posted for the last eight years. My views on the US being a war like nation and continuing that until the end of the country or the end of time have been present for the last eight years.

But it is enjoyable watching you deflect.

I dont necessarily group you two. You are more like Gen Alfie where every thread is a taunt or insult to the other members contrary to the CoC. Why he was able to get away with it so long was the massive generosity of the moderation team. I suspect the same is true of why i have been given breaks for losing it and why you continue to get grace. However, i do suspect in the end your fate and potentially mine will be the same as Alfies.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

I don't think there's an immigration problem to address. I believe it is fear mongering by xenophobic right wingers who want to blame the "outsiders" for the pit of despair their own party turned this country's economy into.

And 4 years of living in the States have yet to convince me otherwise.

And I am not buying your excuse for not confronting Benvolio. Do you think his xenophobic, racist points deserve consideration? I don't. You have some valuable stuff to say in your better medicated moments. He never has anything that's not hiding his warped ideology.

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Great interview and great response to rolyo85 and the other blind 85 who have too much ideological baggage or personal animus towards you to even clearly think beyond their self serving comfort zone. Obama is not the goods but selling a bill of goods...in the future we'll look back at Obama and wonder how he so skillfully manipulated so many people. I think he's gone too far in this potentially roguish, exceedingly dangerous foreign policy in which drones are only the tip of the iceberg. When in the Reagan Administration did this in Iran/contra leftists were calling for his head on a platter. Unfortunately too few on the left here and elsewhere have the intellectual honesty to challenge the Obama Administration on policies which have effectively exponentially expanded the Bush policies they condemned as unconstitutional and criminal. I had problems with a lot of those Bush policies but Obama seems to have compounded them by using out-sourcing this secretive anti-terrorism policy, playing a cynical shell game with potentially disastrous results.

For all his detractors here, hance is a hell of a lot more open minded and fair than the vast majority of that lot and is nothing like Benvolio parroting almost without fail the bleatings of the hard right. I don't always agree with him, but I'm damn glad he's here .... he WILL engage but too many people just see easy score points against him, and enjoy pushing his buttons rather than thinking, "hey, there may well be some compelling points there, there IS another perspective rather than simple "right always wrong, left always right".

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by rareboy

What does it tell me?

It tells me that no matter who now is in the oval office, the US has essentially lost its moral compass and that having sown the seeds of bitter resentment and lust for revenge around the world...is now so consumed with protecting fortress America that it now openly uses the very same tools that the regimes it professes to hate do. It tells me that the Pentagon and Halliburton are still reaping the obscene profits of conflict while fomenting rebellion, revolution and fundamentalist extremism around the globe.

It tells me that after the staggering failure of the Iraq war, that the US is now smart enough to know that it can no longer spend itself rich by bankrupting the taxpayer to finance another disastrous Halliburton/Cheney/Rumsfeld type war and so now must resort to the more practical and economical weapons in the arsenal like drones.

That is what it tells me.

I respect your opinion here - I just disagree

I don't believe we've lost our "moral compass" - rather in this very dangerous world we have adjusted - this is not a republican thing - rather a survival thing

I don't think there is a moral equivalence to our standards and those we/you loathe

sorta like comparing Israel to Hezbollah

I agree with your 2nd part

Thanks for sharing

I'm interested to see what the standard bearers of the 85 think here - only 2 have chimed in ON TOPIC

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Thanks for the video chance. A real eye-opener. I personally don't endorse some of these policies and think they merit serious inquiry, if not consideration of impeachment. That said, the US has never been one to honor foreign borders or to forego a chance to sew mischief in a country acting in a way contrary to our interests. But to my mind the present covert policies grow more enemies than they eradicate.

To a main point, I am not particularly distressed that US citizens are targets or even collateral damage, given the circumstances under which they are acting in fulminating hatred. Unfortunately our activities only serve to bolster their argument. And, quite frankly, I would not be surprised if the CIA wasn't "offing" citizens during the Cold War.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

I actually don't think the coalition that went into afghanistan should break itself doing "nation building." If people are happy living in byzantine fiefdoms, supporting crazy jihadi terrorist theocrats, as many of them seem to be, then there is nothing wrong with spending the next 50 years flying drones over the place and ensuring that if stable, modern, democratic, human-rights-based governance can't take hold there, that absolutely nothing else will.

Maybe democracy and freedom are for those who have, if not earned it, at least paid for it. Maybe it cannot be a gift from abroad.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

I think the easiest way to "nation build" in Afghanistan would be to buy their entire heroin production. And let them govern themselves the way they wish. That area has been trouble since Alexander the Great and will always remain so.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Chance, the US has been hiring "mercenaries" [sometimes persons, sometimes corporations] since they outlawed the draft to shore up its military. It's something neither party likes to admit to but is there. Drones are just another facet to the mercenary aspect.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Wait Chance, I thought you were for the war efforts? You didn't know that this started well before Obama? You didn't know we have teams all over the middle east most times invited by the countries leadership to clandestinely eradicate the terror inside those borders?

Weird. I take for granted people know why we send small groups of special forces into countries.

Still it is weird that now you are thoroughly against the idea once a democratic president is allowing the same military to continue operations.

As I said before the election, Obama is the best republican candidate we have... he just happens to support gay marriage and abortion and weed.... meh.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Wait Chance, I thought you were for the war efforts? You didn't know that this started well before Obama? You didn't know we have teams all over the middle east most times invited by the countries leadership to clandestinely eradicate the terror inside those borders?

Weird. I take for granted people know why we send small groups of special forces into countries.

Still it is weird that now you are thoroughly against the idea once a democratic president is allowing the same military to continue operations.

As I said before the election, Obama is the best republican candidate we have... he just happens to support gay marriage and abortion and weed.... meh.

I am transparent on this - my first goal is to keep america/americans safe - i appreciate offense combined with a good defense

hearing details on the extent of this stuff is difficult however - and i'm predisposed to defending my govt. and their actions to protect me/my family etc.

details can be chilling - jeremy provides details

and i'm not against the idea - who said i was ?

it's like anything else i guess - good things can become less than good - i don't have the answers - i'm just learning all the facts

like the killing of the police guy and pregnant women - then blaming it on the taliban

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

I don't think anyone has all the answers. However, this government has been knocking on doors around the world since 9/11. I don't think that genie is going back into the bottle after almost twelve years. No, there is a reason the CIA is aligned with our special forces. There is also a reason we are currently in multiple countries across the globe and sharing intelligence rapidly with nations we used to call allies and then spy on. It wasn't personal, they called us allies and spied on us as well. It was the game. 9/11 changed the rules. Also calling it assassination may meet the dictionary definition but all is fair in love and war. While Obama has been accused of 'ending the war on terror' by the frothy mouths so they can try and get a foothold, he has never asked congress to rescind the war powers granted... so there is still a war on terror. While our spec ops perform the task and war is authorized by congress then it is an act of war not an act of state sponsored assassination. I imagine that is the legal defense developed should it be challenged. yet who will challenge it? The stateless terrorist? The countries asking us to eliminate their bad apples?

My inclination is that the media will do another soul search once Obama ends and a new democrat will take his place. Then the next (gal) will have a tougher time operating.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Stalin was a socialist. Obama is just muddling through a mired system of kick backs and hook ups. Socialist it is not and never will be. Unfortunately.

Some socialism is good. ALL western nations and many we consider 'below' us have better, massively better medical care for their people. The highest bidder capitalism does not appear to work well for the majority without means. Hell i wish we were at least communist. Apparently the Chinese are able to build and repair roads, bridges and schools. We think that people should do that on their own and our once world renown roads system shows it very clearly.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Stalin was a socialist. Obama is just muddling through a mired system of kick backs and hook ups. Socialist it is not and never will be. Unfortunately.

Some socialism is good. ALL western nations and many we consider 'below' us have better, massively better medical care for their people. The highest bidder capitalism does not appear to work well for the majority without means. Hell i wish we were at least communist. Apparently the Chinese are able to build and repair roads, bridges and schools. We think that people should do that on their own and our once world renown roads system shows it very clearly.

JayHawk look at you using nuance and balance and trying to put things on the middle ground. Don't you know that it's supposed to be us versus them?

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Stalin was a socialist. Obama is just muddling through a mired system of kick backs and hook ups. Socialist it is not and never will be. Unfortunately.

Some socialism is good. ALL western nations and many we consider 'below' us have better, massively better medical care for their people. The highest bidder capitalism does not appear to work well for the majority without means. Hell i wish we were at least communist. Apparently the Chinese are able to build and repair roads, bridges and schools. We think that people should do that on their own and our once world renown roads system shows it very clearly.

i was teasing re: obama/socialist .......

as for the chinese ...... u don't want to live in china

seems to be similar to the idea that "mussolini made the trains run on time "

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by bankside

JayHawk look at you using nuance and balance and trying to put things on the middle ground. Don't you know that it's supposed to be us versus them?

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Not when it comes to new structures built. They are whipping our ass. Believe me I have watched it transform the last fifteen years. Ringside as it were. Where they lack is another republican hated program. they have no EPA or a Sierra club to tell the government that they are fucking up and it has consequences irt drinking water, sewage disposal, soil stability... etc. They are a huge country though and many of those environmental items are regional. Can you imagine forty years ago when the great lakes were algae blooms of toxic death that killed off more fish than it spawned? Me neither. Dont wanna live there either. I also dont wanna be forced to drive a 4x4 because of the size of potholes in the roads.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Stalin was a socialist. Obama is just muddling through a mired system of kick backs and hook ups. Socialist it is not and never will be. Unfortunately.

Some socialism is good. ALL western nations and many we consider 'below' us have better, massively better medical care for their people. The highest bidder capitalism does not appear to work well for the majority without means. Hell i wish we were at least communist. Apparently the Chinese are able to build and repair roads, bridges and schools. We think that people should do that on their own and our once world renown roads system shows it very clearly.

From what I've seen on 60 Minutes they're building entire cities; complete with shopping malls, and multi-use residential communities, and no one is living there.

Apparently to continue to "prop up" some economic bubble that the Communist Regime feels that they need to in order to keep up with their GDP.

Rather than by a group of Mafia Thugs in Russia, or the Communist Committee in China, it's "Corporation America" and Wall Street that are perpetuating this "war."

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? Mark 8:36

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.”

But while our Republic burns, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average sets record highs, we argue amongst ourselves about left and right, gay and straight, Republican and Democrat as if any of that really matters.

Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Yet the world still rushes to put money into it.... it is like it is rigged for us.... bwhahahahahaha

I agree though Jack, if the banks dump all the cash they have on hand onto the market, it will be game over. But that would end them with no country left to bail them out... so I doubt they will do it.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

^ ^ ^^See!

Watching that type of destruction at the movies doesn't make "reality" seem so bad.

What's your weapon of choice for the Zombie Apocalypse?

As an American I use to think it was my right to vote, but apparently that right has more standing on American Idol, sponsored by Coca Cola until I discovered that X-Factor is being sponsored by Pepsi.

What's a girl to do?

Perhaps we should all become "community activists."

Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

Originally Posted by centexfarmer

^ ^ ^^See!

Watching that type of destruction at the movies doesn't make "reality" seem so bad.

What's your weapon of choice for the Zombie Apocalypse?

As an American I use to think it was my right to vote, but apparently that right has more standing on American Idol, sponsored by Coca Cola until I discovered that X-Factor is being sponsored by Pepsi.
What's a girl to do?

Perhaps we should all become "community activists."

First ... stop calling yourself a girl .. you're a man.

Next ... buy a thousand isolated acres in Montana and hone up your fishing, hunting, trapping, and farming abilities.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

The stock market will continue to go up as long as the Fed prints new money .. when reality hits -- run like hell to get out of the stock market.

Strange economic policy we have in the USA. All fake.

Any sane person would realize that the FED is propping up the stock markets. Their holdings alone explain that [they don't increase by ~500% over 3 years for no reason]. I got out of corporate finance last year 1: due to its culture and 2: because I saw no real future in being either a sycophant or a soothsayer.

Re: Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield

They called Reagan an imperial president because of the pomp and circumstance. He had but the trappings of imperium; Obama has far more substance.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "