If the only change was that 25man raids were dropping lvl B gear, where as 10man raids were dropping lvl A gear -- but gear coming from both raid modes can be fully upgraded to lvl D (and not beyond that) then everyone would be ok

It's the shared lockouts that cause the issues because it means that the asian guilds can acquire and upgrade much faster than their amero-euro brethren

the consensus 10/25 in Cata and as it is now is very fine for me.with same loot table, it let everyone really choose wich format the fit better :-10 for more social fun, less stress and "might be" easier raid management-25 for the glory, at is it "suppossed" to be more challenging...

The problem as Blizzard has actually recognised is that none of this is actually true.

What they wanted was an environment were people could do what they wanted.What they wound up creating did not allow for that.

Now, there is only a 0.0001% chance that this will ever make U.S (KR/CN have had their different rules for a while now, whether it came to double lockouts and what not without affecting US/EU). What we'll probably see in US/EU is them tinkering with drop chances or convenience stuff a bit more, but in a discussion like this, it really should be noted what the problem actually is.

It's the shared lockouts that cause the issues because it means that the asian guilds can acquire and upgrade much faster than their amero-euro brethren

I don't see how that's actually an issue. WoWprogress or whatever will just have a T15(Asia) tab and noone else would need care.

It's also pretty bad for the people within the regions where it goes live, where people who are able to raid both will have a significant advantage in loot availability (and people will feel compelled to raid more than they'd prefer, to keep up). It's not just about counting world firsts...

You forget asian people are by nature more farmer oriented (as proved by the kind of MMOs that go well there) and will be happy to raid twice the time per week.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

The biggest thing that I will point to in 10m raiding that just can't be replicated in 25m raiding is the impact that a death can have on success or failure. when someone dies in 10m, that's a pretty huge blow. Lose a healer in 10m, and it's probably over. Lose a DPS, and you risk not beating an enrage timer. Losing a tank is harder to quantify. I might say that due to the way that 25m damage is managed VS 10m damage, losing a tank in 25m could sometimes be more detrimental than 10m. (that is pretty fight dependent though)

These things are already replicated in 25-man, just fyi.

I disagree that a single death in 25 man is as costly as it is in 10 man. But that is getting away from the discussion at hand really.

The single death in 10 man is more costly for 2 reasons, its a bigger part of the team, and combat resses are limited to 1 on 10 man, so if 1 person dies, its all over and you often have to ress that one person because of the big percentage of the team it is.

Nooska wrote:The single death in 10 man is more costly for 2 reasons, its a bigger part of the team, and combat resses are limited to 1 on 10 man, so if 1 person dies, its all over and you often have to ress that one person because of the big percentage of the team it is.

Except that on any sufficiently difficult progression fight, the DPS check is hard enough that if anyone dies, a 25-man wipes and tries again too.

The sentiment is probably true for normal mode, and for the easier heroic bosses. But it really isn't for any boss that matters in the progression race.

Nooska wrote:The single death in 10 man is more costly for 2 reasons, its a bigger part of the team, and combat resses are limited to 1 on 10 man, so if 1 person dies, its all over and you often have to ress that one person because of the big percentage of the team it is.

Except that on any sufficiently difficult progression fight, the DPS check is hard enough that if anyone dies, a 25-man wipes and tries again too.

The sentiment is probably true for normal mode, and for the easier heroic bosses. But it really isn't for any boss that matters in the progression race.

I actually always wondered why there was a different number of combat rezzes allowed (allow one or two in both sizes, I say). Yeah, I can see where somoene might see logic in the 'well, we can't give em half a rez, and there are 2.5 times more people!' reason... basically because it assumes the rate of failure per person is constant. But I'm not convinced that is actually a realisitic assumption.

This is further enforced by the fact that if your DPS checks or mechanics are sized hard enough at either size, 1 DPS going down is going to be a wipe. A healer or tank going down is probably a wipe under most circumstances on a sufficiently difficult encounter.

*Protection**Holy Wrath no longer requires Melee range. Damage reduced to 91% of SPH, down from 8601 + 91% of SPH.

You should know by now not to trust tooltips. It was never 8601+91% SPH in the first place. Our own testing showed that it was 4300+182% SPH, and when they updated the tooltip they doubled the base instead of the SP scaling.