Originally posted by GUNNER:The time for self control is over, if we don't turn these countrys into a sheet of glass they will continue to pull of stunts like this.

They brought it on and we need to finish it.
They want an ass kicken we'll give it to them.
They want to see the fury of the U.S. ,so let's show it to them.

This is what really frightens me about the general US attitude these days. People seem to think: Country contains evil people. Therefore, whole population of country must be evil, and must be obliterated.

This is what will lead to global war, people.

I'm not challenging that those who committed those terrible atrocities should be brought to justice, but innocent people, who could have no more involement in something like this than anyone here, should not get caught in the crossfire.

The vast, vast majority of the population of Afghanistan (or any other country) is no more guilty of something like this than you or I. But still, some people seem to think they should be punished anyway.

Several years ago, Irish republican paramilitaries bombed Canary Wharf in central London. These people (if they deserve to be called people) may have passed me in the street. Heck, I may have lived not more than a few doors away from them, but does that mean I agree with them, or what they did? No. I wish we could all remember that.

The Afghanistani Taliban government has placed Bin Laden under "house arrest" this morning. Even THEY are getting scared.

The problem is that people like Binny get these fanatical, desperate goat-herders all worked up, he finances their suicide attacks and tells them that they are doing the right thing. How do you tell one of these nuts to "calm down"? I'm sure the conversation before the attack went like this:

Binny: "Hmm, the great Satan is really after me. I'll have to lay low for a while, so my followers, just attack Israeli targets for now"
Fanatical Follower: "NOOO! We must kill the great Satan! My allies in the U.S. are ready to go! I will do it, you already gave me enough cash, weapons and documents to pull it off!"

So Bin Laden shrugs his shoulders and people die, the man and his group have no control and his "allies" are starting to realize this.

The FBI thinks that as many as 50 people were involved in the US and Canada. There are over 50 people, living here, who thought that this was a good idea!

Killing Civies will not stop Bin Laden. However Taking out the governments that harbor and support such terrorist will. Death of Civies will only create a hatred for the USA, and give Laden more suicide troops. We don't need this.

We do need to exact revenge, (I will not be sadden if a civ is killed, but I don't want to target them, only the cowards and governments that do this.

I hope congress declares war.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

Originally posted by Guenevere: Including millions of innocent civilians who are living their lives exactly like you and your friends? Exactly the same type of people who were in the WTC when it was attacked?

Innocent civillians? These people dancing in the streets jumping for joy when they killed people who did nothing to them? I'll tell you this they'll be ready to fight if needed. I saw bomb all of Afganistan, Palistine and Iraq and show you whose's jumping know. They want **** with us then they'll ****ing get **** from us.

In the word of Darth Sidious "Wipe them out, all of them."

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If you leap before you look, I'm not catching you sorry ass!

Two points: First, by no means all of them are dancing in the streets.

Second, they're only dancing in the streets because they've been brainwashed by their government to hate the US. They've never been there, all they know is what they were told. For all they know, the US is the 'great satan' they are brainwashed to believe it is.

Tell me, why is there so much anti-communist sentiment in the US? Have the majority of you ever lived in, or even been to a communist country? Have you ever experienced their way of life? I'm willing to bet no. If, when the populus was first convinced that communism was 'evil', the US government and the influential media had been singing the praises of communism, I think most of the country would have quite different views.

Wake up and smell what's wrong with the world. Governments can get their 'citizens' to believe just about whatever they want them to. Those people you saw dancing in the streets are no more evil than you or me.

If you had been told from birth that the moon was made of green cheese, you'd probably believe it.

First Yara Fat (I don't know how he spells it, PLO leader/Plastine leader) told his people not to celebrate yet they couldn't hold back. They hate the US, they want to see me, my family, friends, and others killed. We are infidelse and don't deserve to live. That is why I in turn don't care if they die in an attack.

Killing civies won't be the answer but we can't let this go unpunishment. If we do the US is open to more attack.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

Just a reminder, most of the people say in war, you play by the rules, you don't attack civilians. You DON'T kill women and children, use weapons of mass destruction, like nuclear arms and biological weapons is prohibited.

Where do people get this idea of war from? This is nothing even closely resembling a war. And even if it was, there will always be rules layed down by simple human morality. Those who would kill innocent people don't deserve to be called human beings, no matter what side of a conflict they are on.

Originally posted by Guenevere:I've said it before and I'll say it again - The governments of the 'western world' are all ****ing idiots.....

Uh-uh no wrongo buddy. Americans leaders have done some of the best things this world has seen. From all parts or the political parties Republicans, Democrats, Green, Independant they all contribute something. I'll let Nute ball your ass out I'm to tired.

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If you leap before you look, I'm not catching you sorry ass!

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Originally posted by Guenevere:
This is what really frightens me about the general US attitude these days. People seem to think: Country contains evil people. Therefore, whole population of country must be evil, and must be obliterated.

This is what will lead to global war, people.

I'm not challenging that those who committed those terrible atrocities should be brought to justice, but innocent people, who could have no more involement in something like this than anyone here, should not get caught in the crossfire.

The vast, vast majority of the population of Afghanistan (or any other country) is no more guilty of something like this than you or I. But still, some people seem to think they should be punished anyway.

Several years ago, Irish republican paramilitaries bombed Canary Wharf in central London. These people (if they deserve to be called people) may have passed me in the street. Heck, I may have lived not more than a few doors away from them, but does that mean I agree with them, or what they did? No. I wish we could all remember that.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Guenevere:
This is exactly what I was talking about. I can't believe any human being would actually contemplate something like that. Cold blooded murder.

Ok, you almost make me gag. These people hate us because of our freedom. The children are taught to hate us ,they in turn will teach their children to hate us also.

We can not reason with these people, we cannot talk to them over a cup of starbucks coffee. These people kill to show honor to allah. If they are not dealt with, they will continue to do the same thing again and again. They need to be taught that you cannot just kill with out some ramification.

Do you think we should just send over the peace corp and help them learn about western civilization and what it means to live in a free country? They know nothing of peace.

They killed thousands of innocent people, hell, they could of killed some of there own people ,maybe even family members. Do you think they care? Do you think they show remorse for what they did?

So now why should we? I might be wrong about taking out the whole place but if a few innocent people get killed then so be it. The way I see it if you are hanging around him they you are just as guilty.

And talk about cold blooded murder, what are you some right wing pinko?

Thousands of men and women, my Dad and uncles fought wars that you may live in a free country, that you can pray to what ever god you want, that you can say what you want. This Country is great because we stood up for what we beleive in and we took no **** from no one.

Do you not think that what these "human beings" did wasn't cold blooded murder or does that not count?

If we dont stop them, then who will? If we dont do it now, then when?

Look at it this way, Tuesday it was the WTC, tomorrow it could be your house? Or does that not bother you. Do you not care?

All right. I'm not even going to try to debate this any more, you must all be too stuck in your own opinions to even listen to what I have to say.

I can tell you that when I read the messages posted since my last yesterday, I literally broke down into tears. I only have this to say: The attack two days ago were a terrible tragedy. Thousands of people were killed. And now you want to respond with more death and destruction?

I can see now that the majority of the regulars of these forums, and probably the majority of population of the USA, have little more respect for human life than the people who did this. I just cannot bring myself to believe that the human race could sink this low.

And so, it is with the somewhat ironic total of 999 posts, that I leave you. You know, I've been a part of many net communities over the years, and of all of them, I always thought XWA was the one I would stay with. The one that I could truly identify with, and stay in.

But no, I will once again have to move on. I will never have my 1K party. Sad really, I even had my thank list prepared.

If anyone wants to contact me, I'll still be at the e-mail address and ICQ number in my profile. Although I really don't think anyone will.

There's really no point in any of you flaming me after this, I'll probably never read these forums again.

Guen/Zaarin, i'm not sure if you'll ever read this...but one thing you have to understand here is that no matter how good your advice is...they aren't going to agree with you simply because right now all of us in america are very very upset and vengeful. while i don't quite agree with all of them, i do think that action is necessary...and that means taking lives. it's the only thing the terrorists understand and respect.

THEY ARE NOT INNOCENT. They are supporting organizations that are ACTIVELY PURSUING THE DEATH OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS WITHOUT PROVOCATION.
A US soldier that survived WWII once said something to the effect of "When I landed in Europe, I didn't want to have to kill anyone. Everyone has the right to live. But then they started to shoot at me. They lost their right to live when they tried to take it away from me."
I watch the radar track of the flight that went down in PA and I see that it passed DIRECTLY OVER MY TOWN. Had I been outside at around 8 am tuesday, I would have SEEN AND HEARD that plane. KINDA MAKES IT STRIKE CLOSE TO HOME, EH? If those brave men aboard that plane had taken action two hours earlier, that plane would have come down right on me. Thankfully, they were able to stop the terrorists above an area where there are very few people.
I'll not try to hide the fact that the US doesn't have the blood of innocents on it's hands. We've killed literally hundreds of thousands of 'innocents' before. But THOSE were all during a DECLARED WAR. They were FACTORY WORKERS for a WAR EFFORT. They were the rear echelon civilian support network for ARMIES. They were viable targets to disrupt an enemy war effort that threatened MILLIONS and MILLIONS of innocents and MILLIONS of our troops. Destroying those 'innocent' lives cut a DECLARED WAR short by years. One could even rationalize it by saying that since the anti-aircraft gunners opened up FIRST, the bombers that firebombed cities were acting purely in self-defense.
But bin Laden? HMMMM, let's see here, we TRAINED him so that he could help free his nation from the shackle of oppression that the advancing Soviet Red Army was certain to impose. What thanks do we get in return for assisting him and his people? WE GET DECLARED HIS ENEMY! What a nice thank you note! So after a few panzy-ass bombings and some weak retal on our part, he gets serious. He takes airliners caring PURELY INNOCENT PEOPLE that never had ANYTHING to do with the mid east and it's problems and turns their lives inside out as his men using the planes they are onboard into unwilling, manned CRUISE MISSILES and uses them to destroy buildings full of people that are JUST TRYING TO MAKE A BUCK SO THEY CAN KEEP LIVING THEIR LIVES.
I dare say that Osama bin Laden, terrorist networks, and the states that harbor and support them are a greater threat than Hitler or the Russians EVER WERE OR COULD HAVE BEEN. Hitler at least knew the difference between a military target and a civilian target (and don't try and argue against that. I've already stressed that a DECLARED WAR with a WAR EFFORT UNDERWAY has no innocents). The RUSSIANS knew that there weren't a lot of differences between Americans and Russians and we fought our war more like a game of chess using the world as our board, instead of needlessly killing each other.
Muslim extremists know NOTHING about us and see us only as infidels. They do not see a difference between the innocent and the warrior. They see us all as something that needs to die.
Zaarin, you are WRONG. This is not a matter of "the US killing innocents." This is a matter of destroying the worst enemy ever faced to save the lives and security of EVERY AMERICAN, CANADIAN, BRITON, FRENCH, GERMAN, RUSSIAN, BELGIAN, IRISH, SPANISH, JAPANESE, CHINESE, and ANY OTHER NON-MUSLIM STATE. The hammer MUST FALL and it must fall HARD

ENDED FOR ****ING TYPOS *****

[This message has been edited by Nute Gunray (edited September 14, 2001).]

Nobody likes war, we don't, I'm sure the U.S don't either. But to ignore something like this would be major mistake. This is not terrorism, it is war by various militias. The term "Terrorist" does not apply. These people want power, not money. They are fighting for their own goals, but are backed by other countries.
I fear this cannont be solved peaceably. War is almost certain, and we will back the U.S.
God help us all.

I'm sorry if those pacifist don't feel a military response is the answer but we have no choice.

This is a new form of terrorism. Before they goal was to kill/capture a few and have many watch to bring light to their cause. This is the out right massacuring of innocent poeple. Terrorism is a blight on this world and must be wipped out.

I'm of the age where I could get drafted and may have to fight in this. Do I want to kill another person no, will I go to war for my country and perhaps die for it, yes.

I don't think Nuclear weapons are the answer (they could hurt us in the end). However there are powerful nonnuclear weapons in our arsenal that we could use and should. It is simple, we must answer this threat with courage, conviction, force, and with our lives.

Many americans were naive thinking we couldn't be attacked, Now that was ripped violently away. There is no longer a person in the US with that innoncence, each one has now fear. What if this is only the begining, what if they hijack my plain next, or jam my office. The thing left is, I want my safty left, I want the cowards to pay for what they took from me and I can never have again, I want them dead.

Even though I am sadden by this tragedy, it gladdens me to see not only my country unite, but most of the world unit for the first time against terrorism.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

We are not talking about going in and simply wiping out entire countries here. What we are talking about is targetting specific terrorist bases and support groups. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if we helped the rebels overthrow the Taliban, with the provision that they close their borders to terrorism.

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"Here, people don't lock their doors, they deadbolt them, and then stick a chair under the knob."
ThRaWn90,RAL_Thrawn,SOB_Thrawn
Rogue 6

You know I think we all need to remember that just because the US got bombed it dosen't meen we should start WWIII. If it gets started it will be the US who starts it I fear.

I know why they did this, you guys kind of warfare is computers and missiles, In the last two wars you had no civilian casualties, I think that they want you to know how it feels to get your inocents blown up. That aside I am Realy Sorry

Okay. I've been away from this discussion for awhile. I've spent many hours these past few days in prayer, and watching the teevee in blank horror; web time just hasn't been in my routine.

Questions of war? We are in one...period. War is a terrible thing, amigos, but when it is visited upon us in a manner such as this, it is unavoidable.

Yes, I advocate war. These goat-roping bastards have crossed the line in spades, and if a helicopter could drop me within a few hundred meters of this Bin Laden fool, I would cut him in half myself. America and any nation on Earth which opposes terrorism must field a force of such size and fury that the true meaning of 'jihad' is made clear to the enemy. The righteousness of God, thought to be theirs, will destroy them in the hands of a truly moral people.

This is where it gets tricky.

That righteousness will destroy us is misused. If we lose ourselves to the rage and begin 'glassing' the region, then we become the enemy; we would prove them right, and make of ourselves a 'great satan.' If, however, we put together a united coalition of conventional means and occupy every terrorist-supporting country within strike range of our carriers in the Persian Gulf, then we become the world saviors we were in the last world war.

No nukes! Not yet...hopefully, not ever.

I am hearing two things in this discussion: anger and hatred. The anger I share--all the world's peoples (for the most part) are angry as well. The hatred, though...I had hoped we were above that. I appeal to you all to rise above that hatred, and consider that these attacks were orchestrated by extremists, not entire populations. If we destroy any nation because of this, we will be condemned by history.

After all, the destruction of civilians is what has made us so angry.

I am also alarmed by the sudden rise of racism in my country. People who are generally Middle-Eastern in appearance are being victimized; even friends of mine from Mexico are being treated differently. I do have several friends who are from Punjab (which is in India, right across the border of Pakistan) and who are currently in fear of their lives. One of my best friends, a peace-loving father and restauranteur, was physically attacked yesterday, and escaped with a few cuts and scrapes. This is not the America he sought when he left the poverty of his homeland.

That must stop. My fellow citizens, do you recall the shame we have all felt over our treatment of Japanese Americans during the last war? It can, and maybe even is, happening again.

The United States is coming together in a way unprecedented in the memory of my generation. We lost our leadership with the coup on JFK, and we lost our faith with Watergate. Suddenly, with one morning's televized horror...all of that has changed. As I predicted on page one, the American people are back!

I just hope our leaders are more sensible than we in this moment of rage.