Senator Wilson Palmer who represented the 30th District. The interviewwas done for the University of Kentucky Libraries Kentucky LegislatureOral History Project. The interview was conducted by Jeffrey Suchanekon September 26, 1990 at Mr. Palmer's office in Cynthiana, Kentuckyat 1 p.m. [Pause in taping]. Okay, today I'm talking with Mr. WilsonPalmer. Mr. Palmer, to begin I like to get to know a little bit moreabout you. Could you tell me your full name and when and where youwere born?

PALMER: My full name is Everett Wilson Palmer. I was born and raised in

PALMER: Well, we were up there a couple of months ago for her daughter's

wedding.

SUCHANEK: Is that right?

PALMER: The other lives in Meade County, Brandenburg, down below.

SUCHANEK: Sure, uh-huh.

PALMER: She teaches business.

SUCHANEK: I see.

PALMER: Her husband is assistant superintendent. And the one in New

York teaches in a junior college or a business college or something.And the three others are teachers in these elementary-10:00

SUCHANEK: I see, in Harrison County?

PALMER: Uh-huh. One of them teaches the gifted, one of them tests, does

testing, the other teaches the third grade.

SUCHANEK: Well, that's interesting that they're all involved in

education.

PALMER: Um-hm. Three of them went to Eastern Kentucky University. Two

of them went to U.K. All of them got the right one or the right two orwhatever it is.

SUCHANEK: Now, when did you decide to get into, involved in politics?

PALMER: Well, I was kind of, I don't know when I did. I was working on

Senator Barkley's race, well his last one probably, and I always just,11:00for several years I was interested in local politics but I never did,later I made up my mind to run for the Senate.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. In local politics, is that where you first met

Sterling Owen?

PALMER: I probably kind of grew up with him.

SUCHANEK: I see. Did you go to the same high school with him?

PALMER: No, they lived out here in Cynthiana. He's about my age, I

imagine. Three of those boys. And all three went to U.K. at the sametime, I think.

SUCHANEK: Now, when you decided to run for state senator, did someone

approach you and ask you to run, or was that your own idea?

PALMER: Well, I think when I really got interested in it, I was a member

12:00of the Harrison Rural Electrical Board, that's an electric co-op thatfurnishes electricity for this whole area. And there was a piece oflegislation pending in the legislature, and two or three of us wentover from the, representing the board in behalf of the bill. I got towatching them and it kind of appealed to me and started thinking aboutit and decided one day I might run for that seat, which I did.

SUCHANEK: What did you think your qualifications or experience were that

made you qualified to run for the Kentucky Senate? What did you feelthat you had going for you?

PALMER: Well, I'd been involved with the Farm Bureau, been involved with

13:00Southern States, had been on the board of the Harrison Rural Electricfor several years. And all those organizations you've got to keep upwith what's going on politically and (unintelligible) Washington orwhere and just kind of got acquainted that way.

SUCHANEK: Okay.

PALMER: And I knew in the districts I was representing, would be

representing, that I had to do a lot of contacting, which I did.

SUCHANEK: Contacting whom?

PALMER: Well, everybody that I could, but especially the county

officials and the political leaders and-

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, I'm not at all familiar with Harrison County

14:00politics, but was there, was Harrison County at that time, in the late'50s, early `60s, was, I know that was a Democratic area, it was mainlya Democratic area is that right?

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: Okay. And as I said, I'm not familiar with this, but would

you say that it was more of a pro-Earle Clements area or more of a pro-"Happy" Chandler, you know, the different factions in the DemocraticParty?

PALMER: I think it kind of split.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm.

PALMER: Combs, I mean I might've been Clements on one side and "Happy"

on the other. I think "Happy" was right prior to when I ran. Let'ssee, he won in `51, `61, `50?15:00

SUCHANEK: He was in from `56 to `59.

PALMER: Yeah, that's right. Combs won it.

SUCHANEK: Right. Yeah, Combs won in `59.

PALMER: Well, I'd say that Combs was stronger politically when I ran

than Chandler was in this district.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now-

PALMER: But Chandler has always been strong in this area.

SUCHANEK: I think Sterling Owen mentioned to me that he had worked on a

Chandler campaign at one time or something-

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: that's why I asked that. I didn't know whether, you know,

whether this was a, more Chandler or more Wetherby or Clements or Combsarea. Were you known, then, to the local political leaders here inCynthiana in Harrison County?16:00

PALMER: Yes. See, in `59 Combs ran for governor. He ran in `55 and was

defeated, he ran again in `59 and was elected. But I was his campaignchairman both times-

SUCHANEK: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

PALMER: in Harrison County.

SUCHANEK: Okay.

PALMER: And I got acquainted with all the other county chairman in the

district, senatorial district in those two races.

SUCHANEK: I see.

PALMER: And so when I got ready to run, I started contacting some

of Combs' campaign chairman and co-chairman and women chairman andwhatever it might be-

SUCHANEK: Sure, sure.

PALMER: good nucleus.

SUCHANEK: Right. So the Combs' administration, then, did help you

during your campaign?

PALMER: I'd say they were favorable to me.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, the man you had defeated, as you said he was a

17:00veteran of the Kentucky Senate for twenty-four years, I think he wascalled the "Dean" of the Kentucky Senate. That's a pretty big piece tobite off and chew, isn't it-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: to take on the "Dean" of the Kentucky Senate?

PALMER: For a little upstart like me.

SUCHANEK: (Laughs), it sure was, yeah. Now, just for my own

information, once you were in the Senate, did you ever contemplate oryou, where you ever approached about running for a different office,say, congressman, or U.S. senator or maybe even governor?

PALMER: Oh, they mentioned they liked me for succeeding John Watts when

remember one of the times, one of my daughters was, handed out somecards and campaigning for me, and this fellow was up on a ladder doingsomething and he said, "You bring that card up here and I'll vote foryour daddy." And she went right up that ladder with that card.

SUCHANEK: (Laughs), now, that's loyalty.

PALMER: She wasn't afraid of the ladder. But my kids helped me, and

there's a lot of things. I used to farm. I was farming when I ranfor the State Senate had a Grade A dairy and a whole bunch of turkeysand the kids helped me. They can milk that bunch of cows if I wasn'tat home. If I was gone away they could take care of everything, girls21:00at that.

SUCHANEK: What did your wife think of you being a state senator?

PALMER: She was for it. She got out and campaigned; took some people

and go to Robertson County and to Bracken County.

SUCHANEK: Did you have a campaign manager, so to speak?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. And I guess this is more of a modern thing, you didn't

SUCHANEK: Now, as I recall, you didn't have much trouble defeating Mr.

Blake in the primary.

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: And in the general election you had no opposition. As you

prepared for your first legislative session, did you think your primaryresponsibility when voting on issues would be towards your constituentsor to the Commonwealth of Kentucky as a whole? In other words, if abill came up that would benefit Cynthiana and Harrison County or the23:0030th District, but perhaps would be detrimental to the rest of thestate, what was your position on that?

PALMER: That's a tough one. I never had any situation like that that

I can remember, but I tried to represent my constituency. But I guessif I'd had to make a decision on something like you're talking about,I had to see what it was and how much it affected my district and howmuch it affected the state as a whole. But-

SUCHANEK: Did you have any issues came up that, perhaps, later on in

your tenure in the Senate, say, on air or water pollution that might'veaffected some industry or business in your district unfavorably, but24:00was good for the environment in Kentucky as a whole, anything of thatnature?

PALMER: Don't recall anything like that.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, when you got to the Senate, Bert Combs is already

governor entering his second session. Back in 1962, did they have apre-legislative sessions before the regular session?

PALMER: Yeah, they had them on, at Cumberland Falls.

SUCHANEK: Cumberland Falls. And is this where the Democratic leadership

was elected for the upcoming session?

PALMER: That's where they were chosen. I don't know whether they was

elected or not. Was a forgone conclusion who was going to, who theywere going to be.

SUCHANEK: Now, back in those days, the governor had a lot more power

than he does today-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: and it was basically the governor who picked the leadership of

PALMER: Well, I knew he had a great influence, and he wanted leadership,

he wanted favorable leadership to get his program in because he wantedenough votes in the Senate to get his program in, too. But I rememberthat the, they were favorable to the governor, `62. I can't recallexactly who all they were, but I think Jim Ware was the majority leader.

SUCHANEK: Right, right. Now, being a freshman senator, I doubt that you

would've been invited to the meeting of Governor Combs' inner circle inCumberland Falls to decide on the leadership in the Senate.26:00

SUCHANEK: Were you known to the leadership of the Senate? Did Al--, did

you know Alvin Kidwell before you went in?

PALMER: Yes. Yes, and I knew Jim Ware, too.

SUCHANEK: How did you know them?

PALMER: Well, I just met them, met Mr. Kidwell over in Grant County, I

think. And Jim Ware, I met him down at the park, Cumberland Falls.30:00

SUCHANEK: They must have sounded you out on, you know, what your

position would be on-

PALMER: I think the campaign (unintelligible) appreciation for me being

for him.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, freshmen weren't always given chairmanships,

were they?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. So, apparently, your chairmanship of the Combs'

campaign here in Harrison County must have persuaded him that you wouldbe a safe bet to put in charge of a committee-

PALMER: Administrative agent. Must have.

SUCHANEK: Right. Now in addition, you were also put on the powerful

Appropriations Committee as well as Rural Roads and Highways andPublic Utilities. Now, you mentioned that you were on the board of31:00the Harrison Rural Electric Cooperative, so being on Public Utilitieswould've been a real nice committee for you to get on.

PALMER: It would be something I'd be informed real well.

SUCHANEK: Were you able to ask for what committee that you wanted to be

on? Did they ask you, or were you just kind of assigned as a freshman?

PALMER: I was assigned. I probably asked for Agriculture because I was

a country boy.

SUCHANEK: Now, do you recall Combs having any trouble with the committee

chairmen, especially on Appropriations, for any of his bills like thebudget bill?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Now, what role did you play as a committee chairman? What were

your duties and responsibilities?

PALMER: Call the committee meetings and, of course, they were assigned

by the leadership to certain committees, whenever I got enough bills32:00I'd call a meeting and we'd take some action.

SUCHANEK: How effective were the committees back in the early '60s?

PALMER: They were right effective, most usually, most of the bills that

they voted favorably upon or got on the board was voted upon.

SUCHANEK: Did you have time to hold hearings and call in testimony, or

wasn't there time enough to do that in the sixty-day session?

PALMER: Oh, we did, we had people come to the committee meetings in their

behalf. The way I think, I can't remember from one session to another-

prior to the convening of the House or the Senate, and that kind ofallocates the time, generally. Get as much done as you could beforethe session began.

SUCHANEK: What can you tell me about Bert Combs? What kind of governor

was he?

PALMER: I think he was a real good governor, one of the best we had

lately. I think he tried to do something for Kentuckians, progressiveand, of course he had to have money to do it. And he put on the 3percent sales tax veteran's bonus, it was an opportunity to get some35:00revenue to do other things for, but I think for education he did agreat job and for the highway system did a wonderful job.

SUCHANEK: Now, he was the one that first began the Mountain Parkway, is

that right?

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Of course, he was from eastern Kentucky and that would

be a priority for him. Did Combs like to get involved in all aspectsof the legislative session or was he mainly concerned with his ownbills, and after that would be kind of a hands- off type governor?

PALMER: I don't remember him having much, making much effort except on

his own legislation, the ones that he was personally concerned about.36:00

SUCHANEK: Now, was he the kind of governor who would call you in to talk

to you about specific legislation, or did he prefer to work through theDemocratic leadership, or just how did he operate, do you recall?

PALMER: Well, I don't remember getting called in, maybe one time.

SUCHANEK: Do you remember what that time was?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. So you would say he preferred to work through the

leadership then?

PALMER: Yeah, I think so.

SUCHANEK: Do you have any favorite Bert Combs stories you like to share

with us?

PALMER: I can't think of any. I might between now and tomorrow sometime.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Do you recall what your impressions of the legislature

was during your first session? Was it a little disappointing to you or37:00was it more exciting than you ever could have imagined it?

PALMER: It wasn't disappointing because I'd been there a time or two

and I knew about how they proceeded, but I wasn't, I just, I think Ienjoyed it at the first session. And I enjoyed it from then on, butthe thing I really enjoyed wasn't necessarily, maybe, the legislationthat was acted upon, it was all the fine people all over the state Imet. I still see, still know a lot of them. Of course, it's changed alot since I was there; not very many in there now that was there when I38:00was there, Jim Bruce maybe.

SUCHANEK: Yeah, I have to go through my list to see.

PALMER: I don't know.

SUCHANEK: Was Moloney there, Mike Moloney?

PALMER: Yeah, he's in the Senate. He took, I don't know whose place he

took, Gip Downing or-

SUCHANEK: Could have been.

PALMER: Bobby Flynn maybe.

SUCHANEK: Were you surprised at all by the political infighting going

on between Combs supporters and Chandler's supporters or Waterfieldsupporters?

PALMER: No, I wasn't surprised because I knew that there'd been a

controversial, I knew Earle Clements and Chandler didn't get along.39:00Earle Clements was a, kind of picked Bert Combs, helped pick himanyway. But I wasn't, I knew that there was a faction, two factionswhen I went in.

SUCHANEK: Now, later on in your career you were kind of identified with

that faction, with the-

PALMER: Combs?

SUCHANEK: the Combs and Breathitt faction. And I guess being campaign

chairman fueled that. Did you feel as though you were a part of thatfaction?

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: Okay, um-hm. Now, the differences between the Clements faction

and the Combs faction, or the, I mean Clements faction and the Chandler40:00faction, was that based on philosophical differences or was it mainly amatter of "ins" versus "outs" or based on personality, do you think?

PALMER: I think they both wanted to be in. Both couldn't be, so that

was this (unintelligible).

SUCHANEK: So it was kind of like the "ins" versus the "outs?"

PALMER: Yeah. Just like Waterfield representing the Chandler faction,

it's what got him beat. Probably helped get him beat.

SUCHANEK: Now in the various infighting between the factions in the

Senate, did you get involved in any of that as a freshman senator?41:00

PALMER: Well I can't remember, but I guess if there was some legislation

there that was Combs or Chandler, I probably would've been favorable tothe Combs faction. But I don't remember anything exactly like that.

SUCHANEK: Okay.

PALMER: Could've been. I've just forgotten.

SUCHANEK: Now, by the time you got to the senate in `62, and you say the

3 percent sales tax had already been passed so you didn't have to tryto dodge that bullet-

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: was there anyone in the Senate who sort of showed you the

ropes, so to speak, or showed you how to draft legislation or anythinglike that?

PALMER: Had Legislative Research. All you had to do was go tell them

what you wanted, they'll draft it, checked it out for constitution-

SUCHANEK: Oh, I see. How would you let them know what you wanted them,

SUCHANEK: For example, did James C. Ware impress you as a floor leader,

or even on the Republican side, was there any Republican like Wendell43:00Van Hoose, did he impress you as a legislator or anyone like that?

PALMER: I'm sure someone did, but I just can't think very quick who

might have been.

SUCHANEK: You know, someone that you would say, "boy, I'd like to be

just like him?" Well, let me turn over this tape.

[End of Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

SUCHANEK: Okay. One of Combs' key, I guess, unofficial advisors was

Ed Prichard.

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: Did you know Ed Prichard well?

PALMER: Yes, I did.

SUCHANEK: What can you tell me about Ed?

PALMER: Ed was an awfully smart man. He would, talking about politics a

while ago, I didn't mention all my family, but I had a great-uncle thatwas sheriff here, Uncle Bob Florence. And I told Ed that one time,44:00and he knew him, and every once in a while, every year or two, he'dask about Uncle Bob Florence. He was the brother of my grandfatherFlorence, and he lived to be 103. Walked downtown when he was 100-

SUCHANEK: Is that right?

PALMER: from up here on three or four streets up. He knew everybody

in every county, you know. He didn't know everybody, he knew thepolitical leaders and a bunch of other people. He was one of the mostintelligent people I ever met.

SUCHANEK: I've heard that from other people.

PALMER: I think he was a, I don't know what kind of scholar you'd call

him.

SUCHANEK: Well, he'd gone to Harvard-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: and he'd been a law clerk to Felix Frankfurter at the Supreme

what I think we need in government is progressive. I don't think weneed to be liberal, but, nor conservative, but progressive.

SUCHANEK: I understand Prichard used to write many of Combs' speeches-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: and do you think that he also advised Combs on various

legislation and that type of thing?

PALMER: I'm sure he did.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What kind of leaders were Alvin Kidwell and James C.

46:00Ware and Jiggs Buckman? What kind of leadership group did they make?

PALMER: Well, I think they were, did their job, and I think they

were, of course, naturally they were in the Combs' administration andprobably very well helped the governor get his program over. I don'tremember any time they weren't, but I think they did a job, what theywere supposed to do.

PALMER: Yeah, I remember them. They'd get up, Rex Logan would talk for

an hour at the time about something that wasn't going to happen, took alot of time on the floor.

SUCHANEK: You said he would talk about something that wasn't going to

happen.

PALMER: Uh-huh.

SUCHANEK: Like what?

PALMER: Oh, I don't know. I don't remember what he talked about even.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Was he an eloquent speaker?

PALMER: Yeah, he was good. Yeah, he was a good speaker.

SUCHANEK: Now, in that `62 session, you were co-sponsor of the so-called

H. Nick Johnson Bill. Do you recall what that was?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: That denied civil rights to persons judged to be communists.

49:00You not only co-sponsored this bill, you voted for it and it passed31 to nothing. Do you recall what prompted this bill? Could this havebeen a direct result of the larger international crisis that was takingplace at that time, the Cuban missile crisis, do you think?

PALMER: Probably so. I don't remember much about it. I remember Nick.

SUCHANEK: He was a conservative individual, wasn't he?

PALMER: Yeah, he was a Republican from Harlan, Kentucky.

SUCHANEK: Right.

PALMER: I don't think he's living, is he?

SUCHANEK: I don't believe he is.

PALMER: Uh-huh.

SUCHANEK: Now, also in 1962, you sponsored Senate Bill 152 which sought

to revise the egg marketing license provisions. Your revision stated50:00that, and I quote, "No person shall buy, sell, trade, traffic, orprocess eggs in Kentucky having as their origin or destination anyother state without a license issued pursuant to the egg marketinglaw," end quote. Now, this bill received a second reading but not athird reading. Do you recall the origins of that bill or what promptedyou to try to have that thing revised?

PALMER: No, not unless it was a department bill-

SUCHANEK: From the-

PALMER: Ag. Department.

SUCHANEK: The Ag. Department?

PALMER: Unless it was one of their pieces of legislation.

SUCHANEK: Oh, so, this could have been an administration bill then?

PALMER: Yeah, could be.

SUCHANEK: Okay.

PALMER: But I don't remember.

SUCHANEK: All right. I, as I said, I know this is a long time ago

and to try to remember, you know, individual pieces of legislation ishard. Now also in 1962, you co- sponsored an administration bill that51:00reorganized the agencies administration of state government. Thisbill, for one thing, created the Health and Welfare Agency, and you saythat Bert Combs was a progressive governor. And this bill passed 22 to10. Now this had been mentioned, I believe, by Combs when he spoke tothe joint session at the beginning of the `62 session. I imagine yourco-sponsoring of this bill might have improved your stock a little bitin the administration's eyes?

PALMER: That's reorganization of state government?

SUCHANEK: Right, uh-huh.

PALMER: Yeah, it finally passed too, didn't it?

SUCHANEK: Yes, 22 to 10.

PALMER: In the House, too?

SUCHANEK: Um-hm.

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: Another, the other administration bill you voted for that year

was Senate Bill 88 which authorized the transfer of excess state fire52:00and tornado funds to the capitol construction fund. If you could, I'dlike you to talk a little bit on the powers available to a governor atthat time. As we stated before, the governor had many powers back thenin the early 1960s and probably through the mid '70s that they don'thave today because of the increase in independence of the legislature.

PALMER: That was undoubtedly an administration bill. Does it say I

co-sponsored it or that I sponsored it?

SUCHANEK: Well, I think this was just an administration bill, but you

voted for it.

PALMER: I voted for it?

SUCHANEK: Uh-huh. And, you know, since we're talking about this Senate

Bill 88 and the capitol construction fund, how did governors use theconstruction fund for political purposes? Was that kind of a patronagetool that they would use, the capital construction fund?53:00

PALMER: Well, I don't know, not any more than anything else, I wouldn't

think.

SUCHANEK: What other powers were available to a governor to use or

persuade legislators to vote for their bills?

PALMER: Well, of course, I've been keeping up with this administration

now about the session, what they did to get the education bill passed,but they accused him of promising a lot of roads and bridges and thingslike that. But I don't remember anything like that in the, during theCombs administration. I don't remember him trying to, going out andbuying you for a bridge or a road or anything like that.

you voted for and it established industrial loan company organizationrequirements. Now, didn't this bill, do you remember this billcreating any controversy, because apparently some of the top Combsadministration people had interests, or were involved in industrialloan company type deals? Do you recall any of that?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, Senate Bill 237 that year that you voted for was

another administration bill and it required a referendum on calling55:00a convention for constitutional revision. Legislators and governorsto no end, I guess, had been calling for constitutional revision fordecades, and yet they can't get the voters to go along with that idea.Why do you think it's so hard to convince the people of Kentucky thatconstitutional revision is necessary?

PALMER: Well-

SUCHANEK: Do you think it's necessary?

PALMER: Yes, I do. I think it should be done, but most people I hear

is opposing it because they think that once it's opened up they'll gotoo far with so many things and- but I think the constitution is, needsrevising. I don't know whether a new convention, I don't think they56:00can do it by legislation, but I'm sure the, a lot of the parts of theconstitution are obsolete, and the new ones (unintelligible). I thinkPrichard was on that committee.

SUCHANEK: Oh, is that right?

PALMER: Revision, but that was writing the new one, wasn't it,

completely?

SUCHANEK: Well, there were two thoughts about how to go about it. One

would be to go ahead and rewrite the constitution and submit that tothe voters to vote "yea" or "nay" on it. And the second idea was tojust have a referendum for the people to vote for a convention, andso there were two different ideas on how to go about it, and I believePrichard was the one who advocated going ahead and writing one and then57:00submitting that for a vote. I think you're right.

PALMER: I think so too.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, another administration bill in 1962 was Senate

Bill 326 which created the Kentucky Atomic Energy Authority, whichyou voted for. Now, being involved in the Harrison Rural ElectricCooperative, did you see much potential for atomic energy in Kentucky,and was anyone concerned at this time, in the early '60s, over possiblecontamination problems or nuclear waste disposal, or hadn't we gottento that point yet?

PALMER: We hadn't gotten to that point. We are now.

SUCHANEK: Right. Did you see atomic energy as being a potential source

of unlimited energy?

PALMER: Yes, I do. I think we're going to end up having it some of

58:00these days, of course a lot of (coughs), a lot of states got it now. Ithink TVA has got some atomic power, haven't they?

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. I believe there's a plant by Paducah, isn't it? By

Paducah or Owensboro or-

PALMER: Oh, I see.

SUCHANEK: Hawesville or something, isn't that there?

PALMER: No, that's not nuclear, that's coal fired.

SUCHANEK: Oh, coal fired? Okay.

PALMER: Big River is the name of it.

SUCHANEK: Oh, okay. Then, of course, the administration bill was House

Bill 40 which was the biannual appropriation act which you voted forand it passed 33 to 4. And I think you had mentioned that you don'trecall much haggling over Bert Combs' second budget bill, do you?59:00

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, in 1963 Bert Combs called a special session of

the legislature to deal with the collapse of the United Mineworkerssupported hospitals in eastern Kentucky. Apparently a depressed coalmarket had led to many layoffs, and that had put the hospitals infinancial straits. You voted for House Bill 1 which provided statesupport for these hospitals and you also voted for Senate Bill Number1 which created the Commission on Correction and Community Service. Doyou recall anything special about that special session?

PALMER: No, I don't. I just know it happened just like you said, but I

don't remember any of the details.

SUCHANEK: Oh, okay. Now, in 1964 we had another Democrat elected to the

governor's office, Ned Breathitt, who had defeated "Happy" Chandler in60:00the primary and, I think, Louie Nunn in the general election.

PALMER: Just barely.

SUCHANEK: But curiously enough, although Chandler had been defeated,

his running mate, so to speak, Harry Lee Waterfield, had been electedlieutenant governor.

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: This brought about a strange situation in Kentucky politics

of two members of opposing factions occupying the top seats of thegovernment in the state. Waterfield, as lieutenant governor, alsopresided over the Senate. What role did Waterfield play in theselection of the Democratic leadership in that pre-legislative session?

SUCHANEK: Was that sort of an accommodation or a concession by Breathitt?

PALMER: I'd say it was a concession by Breathitt.

SUCHANEK: Okay, all right. Now, Waterfield proceeded to try to

undermine the Breathitt administration in the Senate during the`64 session. Do you recall some of the problems or infighting thatoccurred during that session? Did Waterfield make it a difficultsession for you and the other senators?62:00

I know Breathitt got everything he, at least it seems to me that I, asI remember it, he got everything that he wanted in his-

SUCHANEK: All his programs passed, yeah. So you wouldn't have any

knowledge of Waterfield perhaps trying to recruit some Republicans tooppose some of Breathitt's bills or anything of that nature?

PALMER: He might have, may have done that, but I don't have any

firsthand information like that.

SUCHANEK: Okay. What can you tell me about Harry Lee Waterfield as a

man and as a leader?

PALMER: I think he's a fine man. He wasn't, I was on his, if there was

two sides I was on the other side but I had a lot of respect for him63:00because he had a lot of built-in, lot of knowledge, darn good fellowand he had a fine family. I just think it's a shame things didn't workout better for him so he might have become governor some time. I likedthe man.

SUCHANEK: Well, it's interesting that you would say that because, really,

the fight between Breathitt and Waterfield over control of the Kentuckylegislature eventually spilled over into your 1965 reelection campaign-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: when a dyed-in-the-wool Waterfield supporter, Frank

Shropshire, ran against you in the primary.

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: In fact I believe your race was one of ten or twelve in the

state that Waterfield actually got actively involved in.

PALMER: I know it.

SUCHANEK: His, Waterfield's people sent a mass mailing to all the voters

64:00in the 30th District urging them to, more or less, throw you out ofoffice because you were a Breathitt administration man. How did youfeel about that?

PALMER: And I think he was talked into something he didn't really want

to be in, and I thought, maybe, he made a good campaign, harder thanhe did, but it wasn't, just like I thought, I got so many votes inBourbon, as he did in Harrison. He's from Bourbon and the rest of themI carried. But his wife was a relation of mine.

SUCHANEK: Oh, was that right?

PALMER: She was a Florence and my mother was a Florence, lives up on

Russell Cave Pike. But I wasn't, I never held nothing against him.65:00

SUCHANEK: Okay. Do you remember having any disagreements with

Waterfield in the Senate that would have led him to support an opponentof yours, or was it kind of like they say, you know, don't take itpersonally but, you know, I need your seat (laughs).

PALMER: No, I don't.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, did Breathitt provide you with any support in your

and you got almost 60 percent of the vote. What kind of relationshipdid you have with Waterfield in the next session? I mean he tried to,his best to take your seat away from you.

PALMER: I had a good relationship with him. I didn't ask him for

anything special, but he never, he never tried to do a thing to me, soI got along real well with him.

SUCHANEK: Well, getting back quickly to `64 session, before your

68:00reelection campaign you were made chairman, you were made Chairman ofthe Committee on Agriculture and State Fair. You weren't vice chairmananymore, you were chairman. And again, I guess, it was the Democraticleadership that chose you for that-

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: position, and you were also on Public Utilities again. Do you

remember anything about that committee work on Public Utilities?

PALMER: The only thing I remember about it, was just, didn't have much

assigned to us.

SUCHANEK: I see. Most of your work was on Agriculture?

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: Okay. In that `64 session you sponsored Senate Bill 58

permitting highway equipment and school buses to use flashing lights.This sounds like it might have been an administration bill.

PALMER: It was.

SUCHANEK: Okay. You also sponsored Senate Bill 80 which allowed

69:00Department of Agriculture inspectors to reweigh tobacco. And Idon't know anything about weighing tobacco. Why would that have beenimportant to the Department of Agriculture, do you recall?

PALMER: Well you have to understand how they sell tobacco first. They

bring it in the warehouses and put it on baskets and it's weightedthen. Then if they bring it in too early it will drift before saletime, lose weight. And I think that's what that bill did, gave thema right to reweigh it at about the time for sales; like they bring itin October and they don't start selling it till Thanksgiving, it losesweight.

SUCHANEK: I see.

PALMER: Is that about what that says?

SUCHANEK: Yes, uh-huh. Now, you also co-sponsored with Shelby Kinkead

Senate Bill 119 which made newspapers liable for defamatory statements70:00and provided newspaper corrections for such statements. Do you recallwhat that bill was all about and what-

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: what prompted it?

PALMER: No, I don't know. Shelby Kinkead was the co--, the chief

sponsor on that.

SUCHANEK: Right, uh-huh. Okay. So it was more his bill then?

PALMER: Mine.

SUCHANEK: It was your bill?

PALMER: No, it was more his than mine.

SUCHANEK: Oh, okay. But you don't recall what, I mean, it wouldn't be

anything that would've happened here in the Cynthiana Democrat or-

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: maybe it was geared towards the Courier-Journal or something?

PALMER: Lexington Herald probably.

SUCHANEK: Okay.

PALMER: Shelby had something to do with it.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. And you also sponsored Senate Bill 224 which added to

SUCHANEK: Was he the type of governor like Combs who more or less just

paid attention to his own administration bills and didn't get involved,too involved, in the legislature with the rest of the bills, or was hemore of a hands-on type governor?

PALMER: I don't think he was. I think he looked after what the

administration wanted and maybe helped a little bit of us, but not much.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, I believe one of the main bills in the `66 session

was Senate Bill 104 which prohibited the use of multi-coin pinballmachines.

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: I believe this was an administration bill because as I recall,

Ned Breathitt had mentioned it in his joint session speech in front ofthe legislature. It seems strange that pinball machines would become amajor issue in the halls of the state legislature. Do you recall what75:00this issue is all about in regards to the pinball machines?

PALMER: No, I don't. Some personal but I don't know, I can't remember

what it was. I remember a little bit about the pinball machine butthat's about all.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Also in the `66 session you voted for another

administration bill which prohibited employer discrimination of wageson the basis of sex. Now, do you recall if this bill was in responseto some type of federal legislation that had been passed?

PALMER: No, I don't. It might have been.

SUCHANEK: Okay. You also voted for Senate Bill 265 which created a

registry of election finance which was another administration bill.Breathitt had also mentioned this in his joint session appearance.76:00This bill required a candidate's name, a campaign treasurer, and adepository for campaign funds and that all campaign contributions hadto go through the treasurer, and no contribution could be larger thana hundred dollars and all contributors were to be identified. Was thisbill, do you recall, aimed at lobbyists or special interests?

PALMER: Special interests, I'll bet. That hundred dollars, if it was a

hundred and less you didn't have to be identified, didn't it?

SUCHANEK: Oh, is that the way it worked?

PALMER: I think that's the way it is now.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm, okay. Now, obviously, this type of campaign of

financing must have been a problem or the bill wouldn't have beenraised. How active were lobbyists or special interests there in yourterm in the legislature in this respect?

PALMER: They were there, quite a few of them. They were all registered.

77:00I got, finally I got acquainted with all of them and knew who theyrepresented, but some of them are good to know. They helped you.

SUCHANEK: In what way?

PALMER: Tell you what might be kind of hidden in a bill that you hadn't

really looked at good.

SUCHANEK: I see.

PALMER: This, for instance, Farm Bureau, those people, they were there

for the best interest of the farmers, and I had confidence in them.They told me something bad was in some of them, I'd go and check itout right quick. They had more time to look at the bills than thelegislators did.

SUCHANEK: There was a legislator who told me that a lot of those bills

78:00are so lengthy that there was no way you could possibly read them all.

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: And so you relied on the lobbyists or special interests and

on the newspaper to find out what was in some of these bills, is thatright?

PALMER: That's true. You get a bill of eighty pages in it, hard to

decipher all that.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Did you get the feeling that perhaps some legislators

session was House Bill 2, the civil rights bill. This bill wasobviously a responce to the `64 federal Civil Rights Act, and wasperhaps the bill closest to Ned Breathitt's heart. I recall, I thinkit was in the `64 and `66 speech that he made before the joint sessionof the legislature and he mentioned this civil rights legislationin both speeches, so he thought highly of it. Now, there was someopposition to this bill. Do you recall anything about that opposition?

PALMER: No. But I remember Jackie Robinson came over in behalf of that

throughout the remainder of your tenure in the Senate, we begin tosee the introduction of different kinds of bills that we haven't seenbefore, bills regarding the environment, strip mining, water and airpollution, establishing wildlife refuges, nature parks, and legislationdealing with illegal drugs. And I suppose this is a reflection of thetrends that were happening during those tumultuous 1960s. The VietnamWar was going full tilt by now, students were beginning to protest,hippies, I guess, were appearing on the scene. What was the mood of alegislator during this time of social upheaval, do you recall?

PALMER: They were anti-hippy and pro-environmental, I think, to a certain

84:00extent, but maybe not as much as some environmentalists wanted. Theywere considerate-wild life refuges, I think that people are favorableto them. Like some things that, some animals and birds are almostbecoming extinct and now are gaining back in numbers. The bald eagle-

SUCHANEK: Well, being from the country you can relate to that-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: type of thing.

PALMER: Uh-huh.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Before we're running out of tape here, let me change

and go to tape number two.

[End of Tape #1, Side #2]

[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]

SUCHANEK: Okay, this is tape number two of the Wilson Palmer interview

85:00on September 26th. We're talking about the 1960s and the times ofsocial unrest. I remember growing up in this time period, and Iremember it as being a scary time.

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: Nobody seemed to know where the country was headed. How did

that, how did those feelings affect your thinking as legislators?

PALMER: Well, of course, we didn't have those riots and things around

here, but firstly, it made me very much opposed to them. I was-talking86:00about the National Democrat Convention where they all?

SUCHANEK: Yes. Yeah, in Chicago.

PALMER: Um-hm. That was when, `66 or `6---

SUCHANEK: Sixty-eight, I believe.

PALMER: `68? I don't think the legislators were very favorable to them,

but I don't know what you could do about it. Looks like they kind ofresolved theirselves, didn't they?

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Do you think the events that were happening nationally

affected not only what happened in the state legislature here inKentucky but in other state legislatures? Do you think there is thattype of trickle-down effect?

SUCHANEK: Now, some of this new legislation that we're talking about ran

smack into some Kentucky institutions. For example, efforts to reformstrip mining must have caused a lot of outrage among the coal industry.

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: How did you deal with the coal lobby?

PALMER: Well, I just voted for the strip mining law and I never had any,

like that first question you asked me, if it involved my district orthe state as a whole, how did I vote, I voted for the state as a wholeon that issue because we didn't have any strip mines in my district butI thought we needed that strip mining law, reclamation and everything88:00in it.

SUCHANEK: Right. Do you suppose the pressure was put more on those

legislators from eastern Kentucky by the coal industry?

PALMER: I imagine there was.

SUCHANEK: Did they ever talk to you about it?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, in 1968 a very odd situation occurred in Kentucky,

a situation that had not occurred since 1943. A Republican, LouieNunn, had been elected governor. He had to preside over a Democratdominated legislature. Wendell Ford, a Democrat, had been electedlieutenant governor. Since there was no Democratic governor to choosethe Democratic leadership in the General Assembly, who chose theleadership and how was this done?

get most, if not all, of his programs passed as governor. How didthe leadership, meaning Lieutenant Governor Ford, President Pro TemBill Sullivan, Majority Floor Leader Dick Frymire, and Caucus ChairmanTom Garrett, try to keep the Democrats in the Senate in line or fromstraying too far from the party line?

PALMER: Had a caucus once in a while, I guess.

SUCHANEK: And what would happen in that caucus?

PALMER: They tried to agree to the vote, pro or con.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Would you say there was a spirit of cooperation

93:00between the Democrats and the administration, or was it more of aspirit of tolerance on the part of the Democrats?

PALMER: I can't answer that because I don't know what it is over there.

SUCHANEK: You didn't have much contact with what went on in the House

then?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. How about Wendell Ford, what role did he play in-

PALMER: I think he had some influence on some specific legislation.

SUCHANEK: Was there any resistance on Governor Nunn's part to an

increasingly independent legislature?

PALMER: Not that I know of.

SUCHANEK: Okay. What role did the Legislative Research Commission

play in the increase in the legislature's independence? The SenateBill 177 established the standing committees of the General Assemblyas subcommittees of the LRC during the interim period between regularsessions, you know. Who is, who is behind the interim committee idea,96:00do you know?

PALMER: No, I don't, but I know it was a right good thing because it got

those bills prepared and ready to introduction and before the sessionbegan. Time consuming, took away some of that.

SUCHANEK: Did the interim committee system allow you to do research on

bills so that you knew more about them by the time they came up fora vote?

PALMER: I'd think so.

SUCHANEK: And this obviously would give the legislator more information

and I guess decrease the governor's power a little bit in that ratherthan putting down a 200- page bill on your desk-

SUCHANEK: that was introduced by Dick Frymire, so that was a Democratic

leadership type of bill. Senate Bill 176 required administrativedepartments to file research contracts with the LRC, again, if not101:00increasing the control of the legislature over the administrativedepartments, at least giving the legislature access to moreinformation. Senate Bill 245 allocated a portion of the new stateCapitol to the LRC. Now, when you start giving somebody more room and,perhaps, having to move someone out of that space to give this LRC moreroom, to me that indicates that you all were serious.

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Additionally, House Bill 47 exempted the legislative

branch of state government from executive budget requirements, andHouse Bill 494 required submission of executive budget estimates tothe LRC. And again, I believe all this, all these bills exhibit anindependent spirit on the part of the legislature, is that right?

PALMER: Yeah, they tried to find out sooner than they used to find out

SUCHANEK: Wasn't there a provision, too, that the governor-elect would

have a say in the upcoming budget?

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: Do you recall that?

PALMER: Yeah, I believe so.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now as I mentioned earlier, Nunn was able to get

most of his programs passed. For example, House Bill 255 establishedNorthern Kentucky State College, and House Bill 256 provided anappropriation for it. Do you recall any resistance to Northern frompeople at U.K.? [Someone knocks on door; pause in taping]. We'retalking about the establishment of Northern Kentucky State College, andI'd asked you if there was any resistance that you recall on the partof people at U.K.?

PALMER: No. Not at all at the time. They never contacted me.

SUCHANEK: Oh, is that right?

PALMER: Not at all that I know about.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, of course, the most important administration

103:00bill was, of course, House Bill 399 which increased the sales tax to 5percent and motor vehicle fees. And this bill passed 21 to 17 so it'sa close vote, and I know you voted against it.

PALMER: Um-hm.

SUCHANEK: Was that one of the times when you knew that this would

adversely affect the 30th District? Did you do that for yourconstituents?

PALMER: No, I think I did it because I thought that 4 percent ought to

be enough.

SUCHANEK: I see. So you would have voted for 4 percent?

PALMER: That's the way I remember it.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, on the Democrat side during the `68 session

there is also some unpleasantness, and I'm talking about the JiggsBuckman and Wendell Ford feud, I guess you would call it. And thisfeud developed over Ford's endorsement of Henry Ward during the104:00`67 gubernatorial primary when Buckman thought he deserved Ford'sendorsement. And during the `68 session, Buckman opposed most of theDemocratic leadership's bills. Do you recall Buckman's displeasurewith Wendell Ford? Do you recall anything about that?

PALMER: No.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, going into the 1970 session the Democratic

leadership in the Senate remained the same except for "Dee" Huddleston-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: became floor leader.

PALMER: Uh-huh.

SUCHANEK: What kind of floor leader was "Dee?"

PALMER: "Dee" was good. He had one session under Nunn, didn't he?

SUCHANEK: Right, uh-huh.

PALMER: Yeah, he was good.

SUCHANEK: And then he acted as campaign chairman for Wendell Ford's run

for the governorship and retained his position as majority leader under105:00Ford. Now in `70, I believe one of the major bills was Senate Bill 4which exempted prescription medicine from the sales tax, and this wasan administration bill. Louie Nunn had mentioned it in his speech tothe joint session of the legislature that the state finances were inpretty good shape and that tax relief was in order for sick, elderly,handicapped, or poor people. Do you recall that?

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: And I'm sure the Democratic legislature was more than happy to

oblige-

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: to cut the taxes on that.

PALMER: They've (unintelligible) sponsor.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Especially since those Democrats in the legislature

who had voted for the 5 percent sales increase in `68, over a third of106:00those had lost their seats, do you recall that?

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: Just kind of like a purge almost.

PALMER: I know it.

SUCHANEK: And another major bill of the `70 session, again, was an

administration bill and that was House Bill 12 which included blacklung as compensable under Workmen's Compensation.

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: Now, you sponsored Senate Bill 67 which prohibited the use of

are probably known as two of the strongest Democratic governors in therecent era, would you agree with that?

PALMER: Yes.

SUCHANEK: Now, seeing he had presided over the as lieutenant governor-

PALMER: The Senate.

SUCHANEK: right, the Senate, and I may add, an increasingly independent

108:00Senate. Did you see his attitude change at all in regards to havingthe legislature more independent from the governor's office once hebecame governor?

PALMER: I think there was somewhat some change. I think he wanted the

legislature to have more authority.

SUCHANEK: Oh, so, you don't think that he, things went back to the way

they used to be before Nunn became governor where the governor, youknow, kind of ramrodded everything right through that he wanted?

PALMER: No, I don't think so.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, one of the Ford administration's bills was Senate

109:00Bill 51 which revised the rural electric and telephone cooperativeprovisions. Do you remember anything about that? That type oflegislation?

PALMER: Was that cooperative?

SUCHANEK: It was, yeah, for rural electric and telephone cooperative

legislation.

PALMER: Did I sponsor it?

SUCHANEK: No, I think it was an administration bill, but I'm certain you

would have been for it.

PALMER: Yeah. Was that the territorial thing?

SUCHANEK: I believe it was.

PALMER: Yeah, sure I was for it. That set out certain territories for

electric companies, telephone companies, water companies. Couldn'tinfringe upon others territory, if this is the one I'm thinking about.

SUCHANEK: Do you remember anything in particular about the Ford

110:00administration as far as the legislature goes or any particularlegislation, because you were only there for one session-

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: of the Ford administration.

PALMER: No, I don't remember anything specific.

SUCHANEK: Ford, having come through the ranks of the legislature, was

111:00he, did he view the legislature perhaps more kindly than some of theother governors you'd served under as far as recognizing legislativeindependence?

PALMER: I think he did. I think he looked upon it very kindly and had

the experience of being there was good for him.

SUCHANEK: He knew how things worked?

PALMER: Yeah.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Okay, now, in the 1973 primary you had three

opponents, Tom Ward and Jimmy Hamilton. During the campaign GovernorFord came to Cynthiana to announce some kind of highway or road-112:00

PALMER: Sixty-two-

SUCHANEK: Sixty-two.

PALMER: from Cynthiana to part of the way to Georgetown.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Did he come here to announce that in an effort to boast

or help your campaign?

PALMER: I think so.

SUCHANEK: Because I know during that first session you, again, had been

very loyal to the administration bills and had voted for them and,obviously, you'd served with Wendell Ford and knew him-

PALMER: I saw him the other day.

SUCHANEK: Oh, you did? Where?

PALMER: Louisville.

SUCHANEK: Now, Hamilton came out in the papers during that primary and

accused you of being tied to Ford's political machine, well he tiedTom Ward to another political faction, while your campaign emphasized113:00that you were one of the two senators with the Kentucky Senate, in theKentucky Senate that was a farmer and that he understood the needs ofHarrison County's farmers, that you had voted against the 5 percentsales tax, voted to take the sales tax off of food, voted to takesales tax off farm machinery and medicine, voted to give homestead taxexemption to senior citizens. Now, as you mentioned, the Farm Bureauused to hold these forums where the candidates would be invited, and Iremember reading about the Farm Bureau meeting in `73, during the `73primary. Did you know Tom Ward prior to the campaign?114:00

PALMER: No. Barely.

SUCHANEK: I think he had run for U.S. representative before, is that

right?

PALMER: Might have.

SUCHANEK: Um-hm. And he only stayed one term, I believe, in the Senate.

PALMER: That's right.

SUCHANEK: I don't know if you would characterize this campaign as nasty,

but he did get a lot of print trying to, as he said, correct statementsthat you had made that were incorrect about him. In fact, he accusedyou of being out of touch with the 30th District residents, that youwere only available or made an appearance during campaigns and thingsof that nature. Were you accessible to your constituents?

PALMER: I tried to be.

SUCHANEK: Did you go around to the different counties, you know, in the