Originally posted by sammi joI'm amazed that it's taken 18 months since the inspections resumed for just one, perhaps two shells of old chemical weapons stock to show up. It just shows that either :

(a) how little of this stuff was left after the Gulf War and subsequent inspection programs...the inspection job was well done and almost complete, and no new programs were initiated.....and/or

(b) There's a whole bunch of this stuff still lying around in Iraq, following the chaos and upheaval of the 1991 war. We all know how bureaucracy works: Probably most of the records are lost, destroyed, looted, stolen, whatever. Here in America, the Pentagon "loses" $$billions each year. The Pentagon cant account for 25 percent of what it spends on an annual basishttp://defazio.house.gov/UpPentagon.shtml
If our own military, the most advanced, disciplined and efficient and cannot keep accurate records and accounting in a country which is at peace (within its own borders) then just how in hell does one expect a country like Iraq, which has been invaded twice in the last 13 years, and has been in a state of relative chaos and war throughtout the duration?

This is the first time that chemical weapons have been used in Iraq since the invasion of Kuwait. It looks accidental and random, and the insurgents probably had no clue what the shell markings (if still decipherable) meant. The lack of use of chemical/bio weapons by either Saddam's forces or the insurgency tells me that they either (a) didn't have any left, (b) were not prepared to use it if they did have it or (c) what was left of the old stock was scattered about the countryside in ammunition dumps with nobody really knowing what was where.

Please leave your hysteria at the door.

Or it just means that they are saving the best or worst for last, what I mean is as the hand-over date draws closer.

If more of this stuff is used, I would bet that is what is happening.

Oh yeah, I love the amount of chemical weapons experts we have here in AO. But it seems that the chemicals left soldiers sick. I would say that it is still effective however diminished it is or gets over time.

Originally posted by segoviusWell, let's assume that the one person who would know (SH) hasn't exactly been getting tickled with a particularly light and fluffy duster as part of his interrogation procedure.

If he's really unlucky they would have let England loose on him - so how come he's not talking ?

Are the military interrogators bad at their job or good at it and there's nothing cooking ?

You choose - I've got some wet paint that needs watching while it dries.....

Yes, I know - I don't recall Saddam having a false leg although he may well be dead by now if Abu Ghraib is anything to go by.

I was referring to the fact that SH was more likely to know where any WMD might be and since he has been getting 'the treatment' presumably for a few months now, then their continuing absence is significant.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Jesus told him, "You people will never believe unless you see miraculous signs and wonders."

Nothing will ever convince some people that WMDs exist in Iraq....

Nothing will ever be good enough.

First of all, I've never been very keen on the notion that faith without evidence is an especially virtuous or moral thing.

For those who do consider of faith without evidence to be a virtue, it seems to me that ascribing virtue to faith is generally limited to matters like faith in God and/or a particular belief structure, not so much, say, faith in whatever our political leadership happens to say.

As for whether or not some people would deny the existence of Iraqi WMD even in the face of overwhelming evidence... I'm sure some people would be so stubborn, yes. But that point hasn't come, and the existence of such evidence is purely hypothetical.

The burden of proof should have been met before we went to war, anyway. I'm sure finding real, substantial piles of WMD would make some people feel very justified and smug, but that's sort of like executing a criminal on a hunch, and thinking that the execution is justified because you find the evidence you needed later.

What's worse would be calling such a pre-emptive execution just, and continuing to call it just even without the evidence, because no one can prove you won't "eventually" find the evidence you need.

Originally posted by shetline
The burden of proof should have been met before we went to war, anyway. I'm sure finding real, substantial piles of WMD would make some people feel very justified and smug, but that's sort of like executing a criminal on a hunch, and thinking that the execution is justified because you find the evidence you needed later.

Originally posted by Face Ache:[They didn't know it was sarin] But now the US has told them.

My thought exactly. If this story is true, then either a) the military is totally irresponsible for releasing this information or b) they know, like everyone else who isn't hypnotized by the Church of Bush, that there aren't enough out there to warrant concern.

Originally posted by Power AppleAs a Christian, I find your use of this bible quote in this thread strongly offensive and outmost disrespectful of the faith. Shame. Shame on you.

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Originally posted by Jubelum Whatever.

You see, Power Apple, for many people, the American version of Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with the true message of Christ. It is used as a tool to impose personal morals (that are not even taught in the Bible) to others who do not share your belief. And my use of the word "morals" here is a loose interpretation, to be sure.

The moral thing to do definitely would have been to have the proof before going to war. It would have been to use diplomacy rather than munitions. It would have been to offer prisoners a certain amount of human rights. But the so-called "Christians" in the US generally get the message wrong and play follow the leader all their lives, not realizing that the king (or bishop or pope or minister) has no clothes when it comes to Christ's message.

Originally posted by giantOne thing we know: there were no plants to build any of this shit anytime recently.

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Originally posted by NaplesXActually you don't.

Soooooo... we don't know there are chemical weapons PLANTS, because...... what, they could be buried in the desert somewhere?

Sorry to sound condescending, but you can't seriously believe that there are PLANTS over there that we STILL haven't found? Or that all traces of such plants were removed in a matter of months, pre-invasion?

Originally posted by NaplesXI don't think that you are correct on this one.

Ricin, anthrax, mustard and VX are all considered WMDs, along with bio and nukes, because of their potential to kill masses of people.

I don't mean to say that sarin isn't dangerous or worthy of WMB classification, just that this one shell doesn't make a good case in itself. I just want people to be patient before jumping to some conclusion one way or the other. The shell could be the elusive tip of the iceberg or it could be a fluke. All of us should at least accept that this needs further investigation. I think the title of this thread doesn't necessarily assume anything either though it's provocative enough to force some knee-jerk reactions and somewhat tangential points about the decision to go to war, etc. Of course, that was sort of the point of the title too. \

Originally posted by BuonRottoI don't mean to say that sarin isn't dangerous or worthy of WMB classification, just that this one shell doesn't make a good case in itself. I just want people to be patient before jumping to some conclusion one way or the other. The shell could be the elusive tip of the iceberg or it could be a fluke. All of us should at least accept that this needs further investigation. I think the title of this thread doesn't necessarily assume anything either though it's provocative enough to force some knee-jerk reactions and somewhat tangential points about the decision to go to war, etc. Of course, that was sort of the point of the title too. \

It without a doubt shows that WMDs were in Iraq. Wether the rest of the stockpile are found immediately or not, matters little at this point. I really don't want to point out that I suggested many times that this kind of discovery would happen eventually. Actually, yes I do.

If you think that the "just one" argument now excuses the attacks that many of you have made on this government, you are wrong IMO.

Originally posted by FormerLurker
Soooooo... we don't know there are chemical weapons PLANTS, because...... what, they could be buried in the desert somewhere?
Sorry to sound condescending, but you can't seriously believe that there are PLANTS over there that we STILL haven't found? Or that all traces of such plants were removed in a matter of months, pre-invasion?

LOL, that is actually what some in here are saying. Not like we have a crapload of satellites at all times in the sky capable of taking detailed pics of basically anything that moves in the desert. Oh wait, we do.

Originally posted by BuonRottoI don't mean to say that sarin isn't dangerous or worthy of WMB classification, just that this one shell doesn't make a good case in itself. I just want people to be patient before jumping to some conclusion one way or the other. The shell could be the elusive tip of the iceberg or it could be a fluke. All of us should at least accept that this needs further investigation. I think the title of this thread doesn't necessarily assume anything either though it's provocative enough to force some knee-jerk reactions and somewhat tangential points about the decision to go to war, etc. Of course, that was sort of the point of the title too. \

Originally posted by GilschYeah, because one or two people is all that's required to hide, load and unload hundreds of tons of chemicals, thousands of munitions, and the "tiny" missiles used to deliver the chemicals.

Well they say something is funny if it's half true.

I personally think that, in the face of certian defeat in conventional warfare, SH had the brains to stockpile guns ammuntion, RPGs, etc., and basiclly do what the Swiss will do to anyone whoever invades Switzerland. (no cheese or chocolate jokes---I mean it!!)

Since if there was any chance of running off whitey it wouldn't due to have naughty WMD lay about while the coalition had ample time to discover it, any goodies were long gone in the six-ten months of pulled punches that led up to the war.

Now giant will be here in moments to tell us that there was essentially nothing going on in Iraq---and give the devil his due, gaint's facts can be good---but what you can't make yourself you could certainly buy---or just keep laying around.

But all war is based on deception, so it's anyone's guess.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Originally posted by NaplesX
I really don't want to point out that I suggested many times that this kind of discovery would happen eventually. Actually, yes I do.

What was that "discovery" again? Hundreds of missiles? Tons of stored deadly chemicals? The sophisticated labs necessary to make biological and/or chemical weapons? A nukulear warhead?

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If you think that the "just one" argument now excuses the attacks that many of you have made on this government, you are wrong IMO.

So are you saying there aren't any weapons experts, diplomats, etc criticizing the government because no stockpiles of WMDs have been found over a year, thousands of casualties and billions and billions of $ later? Come on.

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You will see more and more discoveries like this as TIME goes on.

Yeah, I don't doubt the odd artillery shell or two will be found in the future. Of course, that'll probably be enough to satisfy the Bush At Any Cost supporters who'll point to those as proof of the "imminent threat" we were under.

Originally posted by dmz
Well they say something is funny if it's half true.

I thought it was funny because what you were implying with your little comedy bit is so off the wall. For you to imply the manufacturing and storing/hiding of WMDs can be a one or two man operation is ridiculous. You can't be serious about that. At least I hope you aren't.

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I personally think that, in the face of certian defeat in conventional warfare, SH had the brains to stockpile guns ammuntion, RPGs, etc., and basiclly do what the Swiss will do to anyone whoever invades Switzerland. (no cheese or chocolate jokes---I mean it!!)

Of course anyone with a brain would stockpile munitions facing a war, just like anyone would stockpile water and food facing a natural disaster. That's common sense. However, when you stockpile weapons facing an invation, and facing the end, you stockpile them because you're going to use them to defend yourself. And if there are so many of them, as we were told time and time again, I'm sure our
allies spies, or our satellites would've picked them up.
Why would SH stockpile WMDs he was not going to use? Did he think he'd get a second chance with us? Come on.

Originally posted by GilschWhat was that "discovery" again? Hundreds of missiles? Tons of stored deadly chemicals? The sophisticated labs necessary to make biological and/or chemical weapons? A nukulear warhead? So are you saying there aren't any weapons experts, diplomats, etc criticizing the government because no stockpiles of WMDs have been found over a year, thousands of casualties and billions and billions of $ later? Come on. Yeah, I don't doubt the odd artillery shell or two will be found in the future. Of course, that'll probably be enough to satisfy the Bush At Any Cost supporters who'll point to those as proof of the "imminent threat" we were under.

I think the fact that we have now found "just one" small find, just goes to prove how well hidden the WMDs are. First mustard and now sarin, what is next?

If another one of these accidental finds happen, I think that I would be totally convinced, but hey that's me. These chemicals had to come from somewhere and SH did not spend billions on just one shell.

I personally think that Syria or elsewhere is where we will find the rest of the SH fabled WMDs. Once again, IMO.

Originally posted by GilschWhat was that "discovery" again? Hundreds of missiles? Tons of stored deadly chemicals? The sophisticated labs necessary to make biological and/or chemical weapons? A nukulear warhead? So are you saying there aren't any weapons experts, diplomats, etc criticizing the government because no stockpiles of WMDs have been found over a year, thousands of casualties and billions and billions of $ later? Come on. Yeah, I don't doubt the odd artillery shell or two will be found in the future. Of course, that'll probably be enough to satisfy the Bush At Any Cost supporters who'll point to those as proof of the "imminent threat" we were under.

Originally posted by NaplesX
I think the fact that we have now found "just one" small find, just goes to prove how well hidden the WMDs are. First mustard and now sarin, what is next?

Wishful thinking. And to call that a "small find", in the context of thousands of artillery shells(I believe we were told there were 26 THOUSAND of them by Bush)is kind of silly. Our local skin heads or anarchists have more than that I'm sure.

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If another one of these accidental finds happen, I think that I would be totally convinced, but hey that's me.

I think you have always been convinced from the sounds of it.

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These chemicals had to come from somewhere and SH did not spend billions on just one shell.

Producing chemical and biological weapons in industrial quantities(as we were told ad nauseum by the Bush admin)is not a mom and pop operation. It involves many people, many scientists, many labs, and many warehouses. With hundreds of inspectors on the ground, with the technology we have, including hundreds of satellites, "sniffers", and MILLIONS of dollars available to pay informants....celebrating ONE artillery shell, or one bomb as proof that there were WMDs sounds like wishful thinking to put it mildly.

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I personally think that Syria or elsewhere is where we will find the rest of the SH fabled WMDs. Once again, IMO.

So Saddam is gone. We've "controlled" Iraq for over a year, we have most if not all Iraqi scientists in custody(haven't read anything to the contrary), and no information that those weapons, in the threatening quantities we were told existed, were moved out of the country? Sorry man, you've got to do MUCH better than that. That is one conspiracy theory that wouldn't even make those annonymous whacko Geocities websites. lol

Originally posted by NaplesX
[B]I don't remember if you posted in the thread that I started:but I think that it proves overwhelmingly that many of you will NEVER admit any good done by this president or this country during his presidency.

No, I didn't post there, and who cares what whether one likes Bush and his admin. or not. We're talking about the WMDs we went to WAR for. We were under an imminent threat remember?

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Evidence does not have to be a Huge stockpile of WMDs, this find is still evidence, like it or not. Sarin is a WMD and has been found in Iraq. That is a true statement.

Bull. Yes it does. We were told there were hundreds of tons of chem and bio agents. We were told there were thousands of shells ready to deliver those agents. The threat was imminent, we couldn't wait. If this "find" is enough for you to justify the over 700 dead US troops and the thousands of US casualties, and the billions of dollars spent in this war...well, I'll stop here.

Originally posted by GilschWishful thinking. And to call that a "small find", in the context of thousands of artillery shells(I believe we were told there were 26 THOUSAND of them by Bush)is kind of silly. Our local skin heads or anarchists have more than that I'm sure. I think you have always been convinced from the sounds of it. Producing chemical and biological weapons in industrial quantities(as we were told ad nauseum by the Bush admin)is not a mom and pop operation. It involves many people, many scientists, many labs, and many warehouses. With hundreds of inspectors on the ground, with the technology we have, including hundreds of satellites, "sniffers", and MILLIONS of dollars available to pay informants....celebrating ONE artillery shell, or one bomb as proof that there were WMDs sounds like wishful thinking to put it mildly.
So Saddam is gone. We've "controlled" Iraq for over a year, we have most if not all Iraqi scientists in custody(haven't read anything to the contrary), and no information that those weapons, in the threatening quantities we were told existed, were moved out of the country? Sorry man, you've got to do MUCH better than that. That is one conspiracy theory that wouldn't even make those annonymous whacko Geocities websites. lol

"Absence of proof does not equal proof of absence."

You guys condemn Bush/US for going to war on little evidence. But I will contend that he/we had far more evidence that SH had the WMDs then the other way, even now. Or should I say, especially after this chance warhead and the other with mustard. Like I said, the more they find the more it proves the US right.

Just like the old rusty warheads they found a while back, many made every excuse for SH and his military. But they totally lost sight of the fact that those very weapons buried in the sand proved that was the way things are done there and opened up the future to more chance discoveries. Oh yeah, what about those jets, read it again JETS buried in the middle of the desert? Oh and all of the hundreds, yes hundreds of stashes of weapons found and who knows how many are still there. You all act as if, "hey, yeah that's exactly what you do with expensive equipment and war making munitions. Just ignore that. Move along. Bush lied... Runsfeld is a monster... Bla, bla bla"

I expect the Bush admin to release some hard hitting information over the next months. Yeah, and it's release will be delayed for political gain, but the "loyal" (ha) opposition has proven that it will use any and everything against him politically. That is what I expect, it \\should be interesting.