Originally posted by Lord Lucien I want Vader to be a background villain. Like the one who commissioned the hunt for the main character, or something. Like he shows up once or twice to speak to the main villain to reprimand him or give him info. I don't wanna see a TFU-esque storyline where you're just waiting for the ultimate showdown with Vader, and knowing he's gonna survive.

No Force powers, no latent Jedi potential in the main character, and no f*ckin lightsabers. And no revisiting all the same worlds from the other films. More new places!

Literally that's true but as I said above, they are a large part of the magic and the lack of them presents an issue. I'm not really sure what queeq's statement there means to be honest; SW can be perfectly viable as any sort of fiction with sabres being a heavy part of the mythos.

It's something I associate heavily with Star Wars. Like I say, I can get generic sci-fi from dozens of other places. SW was distinct in a certain way- you take that away and my first questions are "Ok, so, what's the schitck now? Is this just any old action story with a Star Wars label slapped on?"

It doesn't HAVE to end up like that, but it's what I am worried about. There are stories you can tell about Star Wars that don't have to have force users but I'd rather feel there was a point to it being a Star Wars story- a way it expands our understanding of the overall mythos. As I mentioned above, I'm not sure yet this story does that, telling us as it does something we already know.

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Originally posted by Zenwolf Books, comics and sourcebooks already go into detail(and a lot of it heavy detail) into the lesser parts of Star Wars, introducing creative Non-Force Users, scenarios and the like. (Least Legends wise there's a *** ton of info)

So I don't know why movies have to be any different and focus sole on Force Users.

Well that's not what I said. Nonetheless, I'm not too hot on Star Wars books that are just generic sci-fi with a Star Was label either.

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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

Originally posted by Ushgarak Literally that's true but as I said above, they are a large part of the magic and the lack of them presents an issue. I'm not really sure what queeq's statement there means to be honest; SW can be perfectly viable as any sort of fiction with sabres being a heavy part of the mythos.

It's something I associate heavily with Star Wars. Like I say, I can get generic sci-fi from dozens of other places. SW was distinct in a certain way- you take that away and my first questions are "Ok, so, what's the schitck now? Is this just any old action story with a Star Wars label slapped on?"

It doesn't HAVE to end up like that, but it's what I am worried about. There are stories you can tell about Star Wars that don't have to have force users but I'd rather feel there was a point to it being a Star Wars story- a way it expands our understanding of the overall mythos. As I mentioned above, I'm not sure yet this story does that, telling us as it does something we already know.

The point is what makes Star Wars Star Wars is more than just laser swords and space wizards, ergo when you remove those elements it isn't reduced to just another generic sci-fi as your suggesting.

For one it's a space opera, with space politics, space romance, space conflict and space drama. A **** ton of aliens all with their own distinct culture, habitats etc. Its large-scale in a way most science fiction is not, which makes it pretty distinct from something like Aliens or Transformers. And that sense of epic and exotic proportions, of "Star" Wars essentially, is a major part of the appeal I feel.

Then you've got more distinct stuff that distinguishes it from say, Star Trek. Like the "used universe" and frankly the design in general which is far and away superior to most sci-fi franchises.

Then you've got the fantasy element, shit like Evil Empires, Emperors, Princess and yes, space wizards and laser swords. But even with the latter part omitted there are a plenty of fantasy tropes still out there have and I'm sure will be implemented into this movie to give the appropriate feel.

So altogether you say that without aforementioned elements you could go watch any other sci-fi, but frankly I'd like to know what you're watching, because it's certainly not showing in any cinemas I've been to, and it must be pretty damn good.

Originally posted by Ushgarak Literally that's true but as I said above, they are a large part of the magic and the lack of them presents an issue. I'm not really sure what queeq's statement there means to be honest; SW can be perfectly viable as any sort of fiction with sabres being a heavy part of the mythos.

It's something I associate heavily with Star Wars. Like I say, I can get generic sci-fi from dozens of other places. SW was distinct in a certain way- you take that away and my first questions are "Ok, so, what's the schitck now? Is this just any old action story with a Star Wars label slapped on?"

It doesn't HAVE to end up like that, but it's what I am worried about. There are stories you can tell about Star Wars that don't have to have force users but I'd rather feel there was a point to it being a Star Wars story- a way it expands our understanding of the overall mythos. As I mentioned above, I'm not sure yet this story does that, telling us as it does something we already know.

Well, what Beniboybling just said, that's basically what I meant. SW should and can be more than laser swords and space wizards. More people waving sabres doesn't really enhance the SW universe. If I look at TCW or even the Jedi angle in the Rebels series, that's kinda what you get with sabres: more of the same.

Yet, I totally agree with you that a story that doesn't do anything more than what we already know, doesn't add much to SW. It could turn out to something like Guardians of the Galaxy.

However, I don't think lightsabers will change that in this particular movie. It'd be a story we'd already know with more lightsabers, saying: look it's SW people, coz it has sabres.

I think the SW universe should be able to be more than that. It's distinct in its original (OT) approach: fairy tale like stories, used future, specific design features etc etc. But yes, they should move it to something that is a) SW and B) more than sabres and wizards.

And if Rogue One will do that.... who knows. I do hope so. But after seeing the trailer, I'm not so sure. I hope the real human story is about something more than just the DS plans.

Just like ANH is not about destroying the DS, but about a farm boy that wants to become a Jedi like his father. If they pull that off with Rogue One, I'll be a happy bunny.

Originally posted by Beniboybling The point is what makes Star Wars Star Wars is more than just laser swords and space wizards, ergo when you remove those elements it isn't reduced to just another generic sci-fi as your suggesting.

For one it's a space opera, with space politics, space romance, space conflict and space drama. A **** ton of aliens all with their own distinct culture, habitats etc. Its large-scale in a way most science fiction is not, which makes it pretty distinct from something like Aliens or Transformers. And that sense of epic and exotic proportions, of "Star" Wars essentially, is a major part of the appeal I feel.

Then you've got more distinct stuff that distinguishes it from say, Star Trek. Like the "used universe" and frankly the design in general which is far and away superior to most sci-fi franchises.

Then you've got the fantasy element, shit like Evil Empires, Emperors, Princess and yes, space wizards and laser swords. But even with the latter part omitted there are a plenty of fantasy tropes still out there have and I'm sure will be implemented into this movie to give the appropriate feel.

So altogether you say that without aforementioned elements you could go watch any other sci-fi, but frankly I'd like to know what you're watching, because it's certainly not showing in any cinemas I've been to, and it must be pretty damn good.

Strongly disagreed. I can find those elements pretty much everywhere. The fantasy/mysticism/sci-fi mix is the number one distinctive part of Star Wars. Without it, the franchise would basically not exist. Things like 'used universe' and 'evil empire' I can find all over the damn place. Much of what you sa is something I find odd on a very basic level. A lot of distinctive alien cultures? That's, like, one of the most basic sci-fi things ever; I only have to name Trek to get that side of things. The irony there is, details of alien species it;s not actually something the films are that interested in exploring, so I don't really associate it with Star Wars. In fact, the point of Star Wars things like the cantina scene is to show us that aliens are weird. We were never really meant to get much into their culture.

And large scale? Plenty of things just try things being large scale and fall flat on their face. That's not a thing, really.

In short, I don't understand your position at all.

If this film does get that Star Wars feel, then fine- but I'm not certain about that from the trailer, despite some hints, and once it is divested of some of the most iconic Star Wars symbols then it runs that risk of being generic.

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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

Originally posted by queeq Well, what Beniboybling just said, that's basically what I meant. SW should and can be more than laser swords and space wizards. More people waving sabres doesn't really enhance the SW universe. If I look at TCW or even the Jedi angle in the Rebels series, that's kinda what you get with sabres: more of the same.

Yet, I totally agree with you that a story that doesn't do anything more than what we already know, doesn't add much to SW. It could turn out to something like Guardians of the Galaxy.

However, I don't think lightsabers will change that in this particular movie. It'd be a story we'd already know with more lightsabers, saying: look it's SW people, coz it has sabres.

I think the SW universe should be able to be more than that. It's distinct in its original (OT) approach: fairy tale like stories, used future, specific design features etc etc. But yes, they should move it to something that is a) SW and B) more than sabres and wizards.

And if Rogue One will do that.... who knows. I do hope so. But after seeing the trailer, I'm not so sure. I hope the real human story is about something more than just the DS plans.

Just like ANH is not about destroying the DS, but about a farm boy that wants to become a Jedi like his father. If they pull that off with Rogue One, I'll be a happy bunny.

What's this sudden use of the 'wizards' term in a pejorative sense? As if Star Wars is nothing but Gandalfs running around. It's a crude use of language.

I basically disagree. I'm not saying this film has to have lightsabres, I am saying without such symbols it is running a risk and I am not seeing yet anything that convinces me that it has got around that problem. But as for you saying that Star Wars should be able to do more than that- I am not convinced by that sentiment at all. I don't think Star Wars is some immensely broad canvas that you're meant to be able to put any sort of sci-fi on. Star Wars does its own thing very well. There are other franchises that do other things better. It's a poor exercise to try and force something into somewhere it does not belong, and it's possible that this might happen here.

We're both on the same page here- we're both worried that R1 isn't actually telling a story worth telling. But the fact remains that divested of Star Wars symbols it's moving away from being Star Wars, and if they've not kept the importance of that in mind then we have a problem.

The irony here is that I'm not actually completely certain it IS moving away from these things. There are some hints in the trailer that it might be more classically Star Wars than it first appears.

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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

Originally posted by Ushgarak Strongly disagreed. I can find those elements pretty much everywhere. The fantasy/mysticism/sci-fi mix is the number one distinctive part of Star Wars. Without it, the franchise would basically not exist. Things like 'used universe' and 'evil empire' I can find all over the damn place. Much of what you sa is something I find odd on a very basic level. A lot of distinctive alien cultures? That's, like, one of the most basic sci-fi things ever; I only have to name Trek to get that side of things. The irony there is, details of alien species it;s not actually something the films are that interested in exploring, so I don't really associate it with Star Wars. In fact, the point of Star Wars things like the cantina scene is to show us that aliens are weird. We were never really meant to get much into their culture.

And large scale? Plenty of things just try things being large scale and fall flat on their face. That's not a thing, really.

In short, I don't understand your position at all.

If this film does get that Star Wars feel, then fine- but I'm not certain about that from the trailer, despite some hints, and once it is divested of some of the most iconic Star Wars symbols then it runs that risk of being generic.

You say plenty of this and plenty of that but again I'd like to here some examples, Star Trek is one yes, and it has been repeatedly compared to Star Wars, though I'd say its altogether lacking that fantasy aspect, and has a very different atmosphere/aesthetic.

And concerning aliens that's what I'm getting at, its exotic its weird but its still a integral element that adds visual richness and spectacle.

I mean really its pretty simple, take out every scene from the OT trilogy that features a lightsaber and some kind of wizardry. Are you telling me that would suddenly make them indistuigshable from any other sci-fi? Of course not, there are entire set pieces that don't feature a lightsaber or any mention of the Force, yet remain iconic.

I'm of a mind that if the film feels lacking and neutered because lightsabers and Force powers aren't in it, then there's something wrong. To me that says that the film fails in other aspects: the likeable, memorable characters. The intriguing story and plot. The wonderful visuals and action sequences. The thrilling music. The well timed pacing. The emotional connection to everything going on. Etc.

I understand being disappointed that iconic pieces of the franchise aren't present, but I also feel that if the movie can't make up for that in other ways, then it's inherently lacking in substance in the first place. Essentially a reverse of my chief beef with the PT: lightsabers and Force powers become the point of the movie, instead of great additions to an already wonderful movie.

I for one welcome the scaling down of the Force stuff. I got to be apart of the audience that saw what the Legends canon did: the ridiculous stunts and Dragonball Z powers in stuff like The Force Unleashed, or the Clone Wars series. Or the outright demi-god, Harry Potter style magic Force in various novels or the Clone Wars series again. That, combined with the overexposure brought about by the prequels has left me fatigued and numb to the lightsabers and the Force. The comparative subtlety in Episode VII was a bit refreshing, and if Rogue One goes even further with that, I'm all for it. We can explore the galaxy as Muggles.

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i'm of ush's opinion of the possible gritty combat action film with 'star wars' slapped on the label. however i don't share the worry since i suspect it will be a solid film despite that. im more concerned about the han solo prequel turning out to be a pointless fanwank festival adding little/no depth to the character. those concerns vastly eclipse any i have for rogue one.

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I'm willing to bet that the Force won't get totally disregarded, it IS a Star Wars film. Black-cloaked figure says 'Inquisitor' to me if they connect it at all to Rebels, or some other creepy Emperor's minion.

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I for one also like the idea it is going to be different than the Star Wars episodes. Despite the tone being different I'm sure we will get some of Vader and/or maybe another Lightsaber wielding baddie on some level. The more successful the more exotic films in the Star Wars universe the more chances they will take. The fans also still have two more episodes to work with.

I also care far less for the Han Solo film but that's mainly due to the fact I always thought he was stupid. He worked in the films but a film centered around him doesn't make me excited.

Originally posted by Ushgarak But as for you saying that Star Wars should be able to do more than that- I am not convinced by that sentiment at all. I don't think Star Wars is some immensely broad canvas that you're meant to be able to put any sort of sci-fi on. Star Wars does its own thing very well. There are other franchises that do other things better. It's a poor exercise to try and force something into somewhere it does not belong, and it's possible that this might happen here.

We're both on the same page here- we're both worried that R1 isn't actually telling a story worth telling. But the fact remains that divested of Star Wars symbols it's moving away from being Star Wars, and if they've not kept the importance of that in mind then we have a problem.

Well, yeah. You have a point there. I certainly hope SW has a bit more in it than lightsabers. R1 is maybe the testing ground: does the SW universe have more to offer than the Force and Force users (just tot move it away from strictly lightsabers).

I hope it can be, that it does become a genuine work of geofiction. Like LOTR, like ST, like Dune... It has that potential. But I do agree, they have to define what the SW is more than what we've seen. Maybe R1 will do that, but yeah, I have my doubts it will.

Problem is, you come into the same issues all the time: who's the new bad guy? Should he be badder than Vader/Palpy/Kylo Ren. If not, what's his point, if yes, where the other baddies sissies... If one doesn't enhance the SW universe, it could turn out to be something like ticking the boxes... And that'd be a shame.