Breaking the chains, winning the games, and saving Western Civilization.

Tuesday, May 28, 2013

Alpha Mail: quick hits

Grace asks for marital advice:

These posts are great- but do you have any advice for women who have
husbands who refuse to have sex? In my case I am not a supermodel but
an not overweight/blatantly unattractive and I exercise, wear makeup,
dresses etc. My husband looks at a lot of porn and even pays
significantly for porn sites monthly. He goes months without having sex
and refuses to talk to me about it. I don't believe in divorce but don't
know what to do. Do you have any suggestions?

Wrong blog. Go to Athol Kay's place, which is on the right sidebar. I really don't spend a great deal of time thinking about how to seduce and otherwise turn on men. My take is that if a man isn't interested in sex with a woman who isn't fat or unattractive, she is probably either boring in bed or bossy. As for the porn, I note that it is an effective way of circumnavigating the female use of sex as a relationship control device without walking out.

This is just an odd theory of mine, and I should caveat that I don't believe in the merits of evolutionary psychology, but wouldn't an evolutionary psychologist suggest that it is a good thing for LTRs to have reduced sexual activity over the long haul?

I have no doubt that some evolutionary psychologist will suggest it now as an ex post facto explanation now that it has been observed, but as it happens, this is the reverse of what evolutionary psychologists previously suggested. As, you will note, was mentioned in the article linked in the post.

Ioweenie wonders about the ideal way to communicate a willingness to engage in domestic violence:

My husband has never raised a hand to me, but he certainly has raised his voice. Having seen the escalation of his temper, and knowing he is by design far stronger and far more willful than I, I've understood not to push. How do men here believe this cautionary line is most effectively drawn?

By making it clear that women are not considered off limits and one is perfectly willing to defend oneself by "hitting a girl" if the situation requires it. Since I began my martial arts training, I have made it clear to everyone, of both sexes, that while I will not start a fight, I will finish it. Unsurprisingly, (outside of three general brawls), I've never had to hit anyone outside the dojo although I remain perfectly capable of doing so. With men, as with nations, it is the peaceful who are prepared for violence who are the least likely to be forced into it.

Desert Cat wonders if women can surmount the Female Imperative:

I wonder if it is possible for any woman, however "red-pill" to ever fully escape the gravitational field of the Feminine Imperative.

They can, but they will always do so in a rational manner. Emotionally, they will not because they cannot. That is why even a woman who fully assents to the civilizational agenda can find herself unconsciously reacting in a manner consistent with the very Imperative she decries. Female reason can, and often does, trump female emotion, but it is a constant struggle that is more difficult for some women than others. In general, the more emotional the woman, the harder it will be for her to escape the aforementioned gravitational field.

Why so solipsistic, Cindy? How did you derive "always" from "probably"?

The usual culprit in husbandly disinterest in sex is the wife being overweight or the much interest in a specific someone else. But according to Grace, neither of those apply.

"Broken and sinful" is not a potential explanation. Even if a man is broken and sinful, he has to be broken and sinful in a specific manner. Sure, it's possible that he just happens to really, really like porn to such an extent that he prefers it to the real thing, or perhaps he has particular fetishes concerning which she is either unaware or unwilling, but those are not the higher probability possibilities.

Even allowing that the lonely wife is simply inarticulate, the vacancy at the heart of her question is the absence of any mention of any interaction with the checked out husband, or any statement of her affection for the husband. He appears to be completely objectified. He's just Something Who Is Not Doing Something. I'm probably reading her text too closely. But generally, people who treat other people with interest and care receive interest and care in return.

One should bear in mind that God made women the way they are for a reason, just as He did with men. I don't believe we'll have any better results if we try to force women to be like men, when we've already seen the disastrous consequences of forcing men to act more like women. There is a place and a purpose for both.

Reason trumps emotion, but emotion is there to stop us from becoming Nazi/Soviet scientists. I don't suggest we need a 50/50 split between the two, but rather something in the region of 80/20 in the favour of reason.

Thanks for responding. I have been working with Athol- he has been very great to give detailed, free advice. He ended up recommending I get a divorce. However he is not a Christian. I just thought I would see if you had any thoughts on the matter as I know you believe in staying together unless there are biblical grounds for divorce. I know it is a little off topic for the blog.

Your judgement of him and his decisions will not change the situation, in fact it likely contributes to it. Regardless if you're a Christian or not, biblical principles work. It is not your role to judge him, mother him, scorn the way he spends his money or his time. You might find he responds better (desiring sex with you) if you presented as the submissive, supportive, woman who is there to fulfill his sexual needs that he finds on the screen. Do this instead of being the wife who monitors his screen time, checks his internet history, and judges how he spends his money. If he ever wants to talk about it, it will not be when he senses you are in instruction mode telling him what he is doing wrong.

Re: porn, I think Vox is absolutely right to refer to porn as "an effective way of circumnavigating the female use of sex as a relationship control device without walking out."

I would say that as a general rule, more porn = worse relationship.

Here's how I think of it. A man wants to have sex. He knows (or should know) that his wife will be more receptive if he keeps the relationship in decent repair. I absolutely don't mean kowtowing to her every whim (which is counter-productive), but appropriately acting like a responsible and loving husband.

Therefore his sex drive is his incentive to keep the relationship healthy.

Now throw porn into the mix. He can get his satisfaction elsewhere, which takes the edge off his incentive to keep things healthy with the wife.

Badger: There was a discussion re: women sh$%-testing men on the Nihilists vs Civilizationist post a few days ago that touches on your observations. Following is a comment I made regarding female sh$% tests. By "God given instinct," Different T is referring to women's propensity to test men.

Different T: "Why would women "learn to control" their "GOD given instinct?"

Ioweenie said: "We would because we can and should. Some women do learn. It may take a lot of repetition, but after a while, some of us notice the connection between the brick wall and subsequent pain in the head. We may even notice how much better it feels to stop banging our heads against that brick wall. In fact, it's a genuine relief to discover the brick wall is not as an obstacle, but a boundary and protection."

Different T also asked about an example of a shit-test that Stingray provided, overheard at a sporting event, in which the woman berated her husband for not anticipating her need for a jacket. One point of the discussion was the purpose of females testing males. Here was my response to the query about that test and did passing it make the woman feel that her mate could protect her (in the future):

Ioweenie said: "Yes. Sometimes, we women are bitchy, whiney, and insatiable complainers. We tend to find fault, esp. with our mate, and relate everything back to ourselves. So, in essence, anytime a man does not cower to our whiney, self-centered, and irrational behavior, on some level, we get that he is not bent to our will, he is not irrational, and therefore, he can be relied upon, especially in a stressful situation. This is not a thought process of which we are consciously aware; this usually takes repetition, trial and error; it's especially helpful to see our spouse in action behaving with a level head when we are losing ours. When the response we get back to our crappy behavior is minimal and dispassionate, we're left to contend with our own emotion and "problem." Some of us figure out we need to take responsibility for our own stuff, including our emotions, but we sure don't get there and are only enabled to never get there if someone responds to our unreasonable, unacceptable behavior as if it's reasonable and acceptable.

Now, if a woman speaks disrespectfully to her husband routinely, that is a different matter and requires him to respond in a more dominant manner, best done in private, unless she continues to push in public. Then, a public reproach is necessary."

Badger, sounds like you have a good woman. But, she is a woman. Just as you observe, how you respond matters.

Thanks for responding. I have been working with Athol- he has been very great to give detailed, free advice. He ended up recommending I get a divorce. However he is not a Christian. I just thought I would see if you had any thoughts on the matter as I know you believe in staying together unless there are biblical grounds for divorce. I know it is a little off topic for the blog.

I'll give this a shot.

Seduce him. Is he a Christian? Then his body is yours. Grab him provocatively. Remind his body what porn could never do: real sexual intercourse. Do this when he is aroused watching porn.

While porn is nothing like real sex, it beats it in many ways because it is in the mind and the ideal. That is one of the major flaws with dumping it on the female.

Meeting the the sex need there makes it highly unlikely a man will seek it with his wife or anyone else for that matter.

Many men get hooked on porn long before marriage and the pull for that doesn't magically beam away once they are married, whatever their wife does.

This doesn't negate female responsibility, but it should be considered a factor.

It seems like saying that the husband is stuffing himself with Cheetos because the wife doesn't make good meals. Cheetos can often taste better than good meals, because of changed taste preferences. They are immediately available and require little effort on his part. The same would be true of porn.

How many men would dare to speak up about this anyway, especially someplace like here?

Note the number of gammas and omegas being credited with not pursuing women at all because of porn. They have an outlet for their desires and have no need to follow the more Biblically proper route.

Tough situation for Grace. I would argue that prayer is the answer along with her seeking to be all she can be. Only God will likely be able to change him, no matter what she does or doesn't do. Her actions could make it harder, but I doubt they can do much to make it easier at this point.

I’m sorry to learn about the sexual problem in your marriage. In an ideal situation, a man would never substitute porn for real sex with his wife. Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world. Husbands and wives routinely do sinful and destructive things to each other by not serving their mate sexually.

Because none of us know you and because of the limited ability of anyone here to understand your situation, I doubt we will be of much use to you in solving your problem. However, there a handful of women that I have met on Vox’s blog that have demonstrated that they are capable of giving consistently good advice. SarahsDaughter is one of those women.

Even nerds and atheists are becoming increasingly aware of the problems that constant perusal of pornography can inflict on a man's libido.

There are many forums out there where men discuss "how to stop masturbating to porn" in order to "recover sexual attraction towards their girlfriends". Look for them on Google, you'll find some stuff on it.

Curiously and just tangentially on topic, there was even a famous rapper some time ago, if I'm not mistaken, who posted on Twitter, for everyone to see, that he was trying to stop masturbating (just checked it, it was 50 Cent, look that up if you're curious).

Also, thongs and lifting are your sincerest and most dedicated friends. Cut back on running, focus on dieting and lifting weights. Pay for a personal trainer if you need the motivation. But you can learn a lot about what a woman needs to do by just visiting www.bodybuilding.com and watching videos. Do butt and leg exercises like crazy. This will help a lot. It won't be an instant solution, but it will help a lot in the long run, regardless of your age.

Whatever it is that turns your husband on... you don't do. You may have some inhibitions or limits that simply ruin it for him. Or... maybe you have had a rough spot in your marriage and you turned him down? It doesn't take many times of a wife turning a husband down for some guys to simply say, "fuck you then" and simply pull back.

It is a tough situation, but if both acknowledge it, they can pull through.

I will openly discuss pornography here or anywhere else. It's funny how it's kinda politically incorrect to criticize pornography nowadays. Look at the world we're living in!

Personally, I have some friends who're addicted to porn. They're completely jaded, sexually speaking. They need to try doing weirder and weirder stuff to their girlfriends in order to maintain interest, while guys who don't watch porn, including me, will go crazy just at taking a look at his girlfriend's new thong.

Also, one must always remember that porn actresses are exactly the kind of idealized women that men like. They're not skinny models with a bored look on their faces: they have round asses and amazing breasts, and they will tease with their bodies and their faces, and with their voices. A lot of "decent" women have absolutely NO idea how to do that. But they know, they're skilled at it, it's their jobs, and they have amazing bodies. So it's very hard for a regular woman to compete.

Hit the gym, buy new thongs and, if he's a Christian, he needs to man the fuck up and stop masturbating to porn like a teenager. Men get turned on visually, but yesterday I was talking to a female coworker, and she stubbornly refused to work out because she's "just fine just as she is" and "men are still hitting on her". She's flaccid, she's going to hit the wall anytime soon and only players looking for quick ass ever hit on her, she hasn't have a serious relationship in years.

I sincerely hope you're able to rebuild a healthy, romantic, fun and sexy atmosphere in your home. But the verb here is "rebuild". Let's get to work.

I really don't spend a great deal of time thinking about how to seduce and otherwise turn on men.

Thanks for clearing that one up, Vox. One of the great questions of our age has been answered. On to Hilbert's 16th problem!

As far as domestic violence goes, it might help to ask him about it in this way: "I need your help. I have this totally irrational fear, and it has nothing to do with you - I realize it is all in my head - but the fear is that sometime you or someone else is going to hit me. I can't figure my way out of this one. Can you think of anything to help me to get over this stupid fear?"

I can't speak for the situation in the blog post, because I don't know the details. I can only speak from personal experience. When my soon to be ex-wife spent entire days criticising me and treating me with contempt, then came to bed late at night when I had to get up early the next morning with the idea of sex, I had no interest. I couldn't even will myself to have interest.

Female reason can, and often does, trump female emotion, but it is a constant struggle that is more difficult for some women than others. In general, the more emotional the woman, the harder it will be for her to escape the aforementioned gravitational field.

I've always figured the purpose of civilization and culture were to give people tools to control and channel their emotions. It takes impulse control though to give the civilizational software a chance to work. If things go directly to the emotional hardware layer, eh, you get lots of unproductive drama. (true for men too, and male drama tends to have more fires, explosions and blood).

I think impulse control has a strong genetic component, but it's also a learnable skill. We don't teach it much these days, especially to the people who need it most.

I guess we're specializing! The people who are best at emotional outbursts refine their ability to generate drama. Fantastic.

Brad, I agree. Porn definitely creates an illusion that can be a nice alternative to a nagging contemptuous wife. I fell prey to that a few times. After you've been criticized all day, seeing a fantasy world of girl's faces that look happy to see you and inviting is a hard to resist temptation. Even though you know it's fake, when reality gets that miserable, it's hard to resist.

After you've been criticized all day, seeing a fantasy world of girl's faces that look happy to see you and inviting is a hard to resist temptation.

Most women probably have no idea about this. I heard an interview with a call girl years ago, and she commented that most of the men who come to her don't even get that excited about the sex. What they primarily wanted was pleasant company with a woman who (albeit paid to provide the illusion) looked happy to be with them. Good grief, if women only knew -- and cared -- that men need this from their wives, it would solve so many marital problems.

FYI: I've read Grace's more recent thread at MMSLF, and the general agreement over there is that it's not her - it's him. If a boring wife buys lingerie and ask her husband to identify how she can be more sexually attractive/enticing then I'm thinking most guys in the Manosphere would sign right up. Unfortunately, Grace's husband doesn't appear to be at all interested.

And for the record - if my husband habitually accessed porn instead of coming to me sexually you'd better believe I'd raise hell. For the record I'd also hope and expect my pastor/counselor/friends to raise hell with me if I'd "driven" him to by being a ice cold bitch queen. I believe in equal opportunities for conviction - especially in cases of sexual fraud.

In an ideal marriage, the women belongs to the man and the man belongs to the women. When you say “I do” there is no longer a “me” only “we”. If “WE” isn’t getting enough sex, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be faithfully married and have anyone else fill that need.

A married person is ENTITLED to sex. By that I don’t mean simple vaginal access or penile penetration. You are entitled to hot, horny, swinging from the chandeliers, belly smack’n whoopee, not just the dead fish flop. On the flip side of that, the spouse is entitled to exclusive rights to sexual stimulation. Need a back rub? Only one place you can get it. Need to see some boobs? Only one set is available. Wanna see a hot babe in sexy lingerie prance around? Send the kids to grandmas. Marriage is supposed to be exclusive and unlimited for the couple, but people don’t seem to want to do that anymore.

FYI: I've read Grace's more recent thread at MMSLF, and the general agreement over there is that it's not her - it's him. If a boring wife buys lingerie and ask her husband to identify how she can be more sexually attractive/enticing then I'm thinking most guys in the Manosphere would sign right up. Unfortunately, Grace's husband doesn't appear to be at all interested.

Having looked at that thread, there are much more serious problems with their marriage than sex. Primarily, she's a Christian and he isn't. Marrying a non believer guarantees a disaster.

The obvious answer is: transactional porn users. A guy who blows his wad to blow his wad is sending a message to the wife that she is clearly not receiving: I will pay for for interactions that separate and shelter me from you.

She needs to figure out what makes her so unpleasant to her husband that he will light his own money on fire so she can't have it. Divorce isn't going to solve a thing: if she doesn't change, she's still going to be an unpleasant wife that a husband avoids sleeping with, even if it is her 2nd go 'round, so she's better off figuring out what to change now, and get it it fixed.

Even among believers, this is possible. I wasn't a believer when I got married, although my soon to be ex-wife was. I became a believer through some problems we had our first year or marriage.

Natalie, you're assuming you would submit to the authority of a pastor if you were off track. The woman who is divorcing me refuses any accountability or counseling at all. And if you would, that's a good thing.

And you would be right to be upset if your husband habitually accessed porn. If he repented, apologized, and asked forgiveness, would you? Mine never did.

Primarily, she's a Christian and he isn't. Marrying a non believer guarantees a disaster.

Divorce, then, is even more off the table, were that possible (and no way should be asking an atheist for mixed marriage advice from Scripture).

Her course, on the other hand, is much clearer: service, submission, Christ-following and forgiving. The lack of sex could be a blessing: less tempting for the wife to mistake herself for an object of worship, thereby supplanting her perception of hubby's ongoing need for salvation with her own understanding of faith.

Frankly, normal, honest, Christian behavior is either going to charm the atheist/pagan closer, or drive him completely away (and the Christian herself will have no idea ahead of time), in which case her abandonment will not be her fault.

Possibly that is the case right now, I have no idea. If the thing that is wrong with her is that she follows Christ, then there is nothing she can do but way for his lusts to reach their inevitable nadir, and see what happens.

But if the thing that is wrong with her is that she's got a bunch of silly restrictions and unwritten rules in the bedroom, or is constantly harping on a sinful man's sin-filled world, as if that will correct it, she's on the wrong campaign.

1) religion: the Bible talks about being unequally yoked.2) she's uncomfortable with sex and didn't enjoy it at first, frustration him3) they had huge conflicts in the first few months of marriage, which seems to be his breaking point. After that conflict, he completely shut off

Yes. She has good scriptural guidelines for this. It is a day-to-day thing. Seeking grace and graciousness.

2) she's uncomfortable with sex and didn't enjoy it at first, frustration him

Yeouch. That's going to take a long time to fix, but fortunately for her, it's in her court. She's going to have to become a student of sex and stop worrying about whether she enjoys it or not.

3) they had huge conflicts in the first few months of marriage, which seems to be his breaking point. After that conflict, he completely shut off

Again, healing this rift is in her power. She needs to ask his forgiveness for everything she did, and she's going to have unilaterally forgive him in the Christian sense in any case (he can't possibly understand how to do that from his dark perspective. It is like asking a blind man to look both ways before crossing the street).

I would imagine that would be pretty hopeful for her. There's a ton of opportunity for her to change and improve herself that will make her life a lot better, and has a good chance of moving them from in-house separation to detente to reconciliation.

All of those things can be restored, especially with one half of the team being on Team Restorer. The husband doesn't have to change a thing for her marriage and life to improve greatly, just on the few daily (but long-term, sustained) things she needs to do from a scriptural perspective.

Bad news is it sounds like she hasn't really started, but the good news is that the problem isn't that bad yet, and if she gets started, she might be amazed at how quickly things turn around.

Actually impressed with the husband's fidelity. The fact that he turned to porn instead of an actual woman who is good at sex should be an encouraging sign that all is not lost.

Unfortunately, I've met a fair share of women who are disappointed to hear that their is hope for their marriage.

More context because simple cases are boring: Her marriage was approved by the church because her husband's pre-marriage conversion was acknowledged by them all. So he publicly converted and then reneged.

Re: Raising Hell over Porn Usage

One reason why I would raise hell is because I'm a faithful (sex liking, dinner making, non-bitchy) wife. If the honey ain't working we'll try a little C4. And by C4 I mean going to the pastor/elders/his father - people whom he respects and (in the church's case) vowed to obey in all matters pertaining to church discipline. I'm well aware that becoming a shrew helps nobody. Have you met my husband? Try nagging the Rock of Gibraltar sometime. But as good Presbyterians we're both of a "complaints go up" mentality.

1) religion: the Bible talks about being unequally yoked.2) she's uncomfortable with sex and didn't enjoy it at first, frustration him3) they had huge conflicts in the first few months of marriage, which seems to be his breaking point. After that conflict, he completely shut off

4) He was into illicit drugs at one time and used medication to deal with anxiety and depression.

5) He'd had many "dysfunctional" relationships in the past.

6) He contemplated an affair early in the marriage.

7) He says he misses the excitement of his wild pre-marriage days.

The points raised earlier in this discussion about a wife's willingness/eagerness in the bedroom are 100% valid, but the solutions presented are only likely to work with a husband who is reasonably stable and healthy. Grace admits she knew her husband had prior problems with drugs, emotional stability, and relationships, which should have been big red flags before they got married. On top of this, he's indicated he contemplated affairs early in the marriage and misses the excitement of his wild single days. This dude has impulse control problems -- he needs a lot of immediate gratification -- and is far from prime husband material. There are others here better qualified to offer solutions in light of all this, but I'll just point out this is why parents should be much more involved in their daughters' choice of husband.

"Yeouch. That's going to take a long time to fix, but fortunately for her, it's in her court. She's going to have to become a student of sex and stop worrying about whether she enjoys it or not."

I would wager this is the primary issue. It is incredibily difficult to over come something like this once it gets started.

If he was in fact an alpha bad boy then sex for him is very dominant. That's just how alphas and sigmas are. Resistence to that... simply results in the Alpha or Sigma thinking... "bye bye bitch. Plenty of girls on the girl tree. If you don't want it, there are a dozen who do."

((I just read Grace's last thread on the subject. I picked up a couple details I think you guys missed, and since Loki is not helpful, I'm stepping out of character.

((Two spanners in the works: He's claiming that her refusal to have sex during their courtship made him put her in the Friend Zone permanently; he's also hiring live webcam "performers" despite her making herself available and demonstrating she's willing to do what he wants.

Dad: This is the same shit you did when you were 14. What the hell is wrong with you? Are you gay? Why aren’t you having sex with your wife?

Son: Uh I don’t want to have a baby.

Dad: You’re married get over it. Besides your mother and I have talked about it and we want more grand kids. Are you going to tell your mother that she’s out of luck because you’d rather play spank the weasel with your computer?

Son: But wasn’t real good the first time.

Dad: Why?

Son: I was her first time and it hurt.

Dad: You’re bitch’n because she was a virgin? Are you the biggest dumb ass of all time?

Son: But she wasn’t gett’n into it.

Dad: She’s your wife not a damn hooker or a porn star. You’ve warped your mind wack’n off like some kind of perv.

Son: But…

Dad: But nothing. Man up and start having sex with your wife. She’s hot for crying out loud. If you can’t make this work with her we’re telling everyone she divorced you because you’re gay. I don’t want to explain your marriage failed because you couldn’t satisfy a virgin.

4) He was into illicit drugs at one time and used medication to deal with anxiety and depression.

Big deal. He's not into drugs now, right? Drugs for anxiety are a separate issue, and also irrelevant (unless they are currently making him insane, which doesn't sound like the chief problem). Impotence from anxiety drugs probably aren't an issue with a guy that into porn. Performance anxiety with a live girl? Maybe. But she can make that work in her favor if she buckles down and learns how to make sex interesting.

5) He'd had many "dysfunctional" relationships in the past.

Yes. This is assumed. He is, after all, a pagan. Her job is to make sure she doesn't have a dysfunctional relationship with him, not to repair his bad former relationships.

6) He contemplated an affair early in the marriage.

Contemplative affairs are the preferred versions.

7) He says he misses the excitement of his wild pre-marriage days.

Which means she married a man.

So her story is just getting better. It really sounds like her biggest problem in the marriage was that she's a confrontational busybody who sucks at sex. That's really awesome for her: she has the power to improve herself in a narrow set of skills, and flip the script.

Ball is in her court. The solution is still pretty much submissive wild girl in bed, stop giving him fits of anxiety about his good old days and repent of being a bad example.

Dad: But nothing. Man up and start having sex with your wife. She’s hot for crying out loud. If you can’t make this work with her we’re telling everyone she divorced you because you’re gay. I don’t want to explain your marriage failed because you couldn’t satisfy a virgin.

That's freaking awesome. Sounds like a mashup of Archie bunker and red Foreman.

((Don't be the good wife because you expect a reward of your husband changing his ways. That way lies madness, because for some people the goalposts are on casters. As Christians, we do what we do not for temporal rewards, but because we should. We have our real reward after our tenure expires; any good that comes to us in this life is but a taste, a treat.

((Your staying true to the course of righteousness may or may not encourage him to change his ways, and even that change may not be the change you sought. But there is one opinion that counts in the end, and that is God's. Do as God commands wives do (without falling into resentment or bitterness, which do not become the Christian), stay true to Him, and you will have your reward. It is a hard path, but at the end is glory.

Its hard if not impossible to sort these things in a blog post. I read part of the info on your blog. You can't fix something that takes two people if one of them isn't going to try. She wants to do the right thing but isn't able to because he is stoping her. Its sad since its normally the other way around.

But nothing. Man up and start having sex with your wife. She’s hot for crying out loud. If you can’t make this work with her we’re telling everyone she divorced you because you’re gay. I don’t want to explain your marriage failed because you couldn’t satisfy a virgin.

Then the pressure is totally off. She can simply treat him as an object of humility and submission and let nature take its course. He will either leave eventually or grow up.

It's a bad match, obviously, but the sad fact is she's only got bad options ahead of her:

1 - Leave, a lot older and a little wiser and a lot less of a marriage prospect than when she started.

2 - Stay, submit, and find a life of value in that, with the possibility that something can be fixed.

Obviously, she can (and will) soak him in the divorce, but that's a double-edged sword, too. Women with alimony limit their pool of options, too. That monthly check is more than just an annoying reminder of a seemingly ongoing relationship for many men.

I still think that if she's (nobly) dedicated to being salt in that relationship, that staying and getting stronger has fundamentally more long-term opportunity, both temporal and spiritual.

A bad marriage doesn't have to mean a bad life. Ending a bad marriage doesn't necessarily lead to a good life, either.

There are Christian-based websites with sex advice. I perused this one briefly, but it seemed very practical (sorry, don't know how to embed links): http://site.themarriagebed.com/front-page

I was an unbeliever when I wed; my husband had a Christian upbringing, but was living as an unbeliever; he strayed and has not returned. Anyway, Martha Peace's The Excellent Wife was encouraging to me early in my Christian walk and addressed being married to an unbeliever.

Also... What is all this crap about men not expecting their wives to fuck them like porn stars? If your wife is into you... she fucks you like a porn star. In fact... she should be fucking you in ways that make porn look boring.

Big deal. He's not into drugs now, right? Drugs for anxiety are a separate issue, and also irrelevant (unless they are currently making him insane, which doesn't sound like the chief problem). Impotence from anxiety drugs probably aren't an issue with a guy that into porn.

Previous use of illicit drugs is a big deal. Some people can dabble in pot or coke or whatever and no harm done, but often it's indicative of an ongoing problem (as is the case with this guy) or one that will pop up again.

As for the anxiety and depression, medication is not irrelevant, and those should be red flags. It's not a sin to struggle with depression and anxiety, but it does indicate that a person likely has significant problems that will impact the marriage. In this case, it's even more likely to be problematic, because he dealt with it through medication instead of addressing the underlying problem(s) with behavioral therapy and/or lifestyle adjustments.

Her job is to make sure she doesn't have a dysfunctional relationship with him, not to repair his bad former relationships.

It's not a question of repairing the past or present. I'm pointing out there is an established pattern of dysfunction, according to what he's told her. Only a fool disregards established patterns of behavior with the hope that This Time It'll Be Different.

Contemplative affairs are the preferred versions.

Sure, but he was rather quickly taking steps in the direction of an actual affair. I've known men who've come very close to affairs after years of marital strife and out of sheer desperation after exhausting every option. That's understandable. But this guy didn't take the time to exhaust every option; his initial impulse wasn't to try to repair the situation or chastely distance himself from it in order to contemplate his options, but to immediately start interacting with other women.

Which means she married a man.

No doubt most married men occasionally miss their pre-marriage days. But given all of the data, it sounds like he misses them to the point of regretting marriage entirely.

Any one of these things by itself might be no big deal. I dunno. But it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that there is a definite pattern here. Emotional problems, ongoing drug use, pornography (as Loki pointed out, to the extent that he was engaging live performers), and contemplated affairs, all add up to a man who needs a lot of immediate gratification, and becomes depressed and anxious without it. How is marriage with such a person even workable?

What is all this crap about men not expecting their wives to fuck them like porn stars?

If she does that the first time out, she's not a virgin.

I’m the first one to wax eloquently about the joys of making love till she passes out from the over stimulation from multiple orgasms. That’s not in this guy’s skill set. I read some of that stuff at Athol’s place too. Her husband is a 40 plus year old, washed up man-boy sitting naked in a beanbag, smoking a Dobie, texting an ex and whacking the one eyed worm.

Athol says the women is good looking. The women says she wants her husband to have sex with her. Normally its the women denying the man. This sounds like that 1 in 1,000 case that proves the rule. It happens.

Or......If you're both just that into each other then maybe "boring" sex is actually pretty awesome? My husband and I periodically play with "spicing things up," and somehow we typically drift back into our old grooves :)

Also, is it even possible to make porn look boring beyond emotional/spiritual enervation? I mean, there ain't no way I'm bringing a boa constrictor and a gay batman impersonator into bed with us, and now I'm kind scared that there's probably a porn of that out there somewhere =/ The point is that porn portrays a number of things that aren't acceptable in Christian marriage and that it's nigh unto impossible for a Christian woman to "outperform" a woman who routinely engages in ungodly acts for sexual titillation. If we're talking about things that don't depend on purely physical acts like warmth, enthusiasm, creativity, spiritual unity, wholehearted acceptance, and all those other things that are hard to pin down then I'll agree with you.

if I married a chick that appeared incapable of actually having sex... I would be regretting that too.

Sure. But would you frame that regret as "I miss the excitement of banging lots of chicks" or as "I wish I'd married a woman who was hot for it"?

which is why practically speaking I have said pre-marital sex is a pretty damned smart thing to do in a society that outlaws polygamy.

Someone in the manosphere, can't remember who, recommended post-engagement but pre-marital sex to make sure everything functions well; I'd be interested to hear more about this in terms of Christian marriage. What happens if she sux at sex royally in a way that indicates your marital sex life will be death? So, you dump her, but biblically what is your relationship to her now?

is it even possible to make porn look boring beyond emotional/spiritual enervation?

OH YEAH!!!

What do you or he care what it looks like to others if the level of response and joy you get is beyond anything you thought possible before you married? Porn looks good. Great sex is so much more than being turned on and achieving a biological reaction.

The point is that porn portrays a number of things that aren't acceptable in Christian marriage and that it's nigh unto impossible for a Christian woman to "outperform" a woman who routinely engages in ungodly acts for sexual titillation.

See, that is exactly how I feel about our sex life. Six years in and counting, and every year it just keeps getting better and better. But it's honestly pretty vanilla, so I know it's not great because we're contortionists :) That's why I asked about the "intangibles." It's awesome sex without the blindfolds and getting into seven different positions and alternate endings and such. It's not that we haven't tried any of that - we just don't seem to need it. When we can get each other going with a wink and a kiss the handcuffs and stripper heels just don't see much use :D

Also, my husband and I were "didn't kiss until engaged" virgins, and we didn't have too much trouble figuring out we liked each other. Let's put it this way. He proposed on a Sunday afternoon. By the time we left for church a couple hours later my lips were numb. That's one reason why we waited until we were engaged btw. Short fuses and all that......

Wow well thank you to everyone who took the time out to give feedback. When I posted the comment I was not expecting my threads and the whole backstory trainwreck to get brought into this and rehashed again, but I guess it can't hurt to hear as many points of view as possible.

I've been reading a lot of books, blogs, etc and it seems that broadly there are two lines of thought on marriage problems in general.

Many but not all conservative Christian sources recommend just trying to be a super-spouse, meet your spouse's needs without expecting them to meet yours, show them love, don't be confrontative or make demands, threats, ultimatums, etc, and hopefully over time you will win your spouse over with your love and good example. Some of the commenters here have suggested this type of approach.

But then many other sources say that is enabling your spouse, people don't change without consequences, you are not loving your spouse by letting them be dead in their sin, etc. And then people have stories such as I didn't quit drinking/gambling, etc. until my spouse finally moved out (I think George W. Bush have a story like that?) I read one story where the husband said his wife giving him unconditional love actually made him worse, and it wasn't until she finally set limits and gave him an ultimatum that he started working to turn things around. Athol's approach also uses ultimatums, although I know in my case he thinks I do not have leverage that it would work.

But overall I am kind of lost as to what the right thing to do is. I feel like the first approach might be more in line with what the Bible lays out for wives. However, there are also the passages that there are times to confront people. However now that I have already done that should I drop it, for now, forever?

((Grace, those two approaches are not mutually exclusive. Love does not stay silent when the beloved is doing wrong. You can remind and exhort without nagging, if that is what you are asking.

((Those men who insist that their wives' righteousness kept them wallowing in their own sin are using it as an excuse for their own weakness. These are men who would rather blame their wives than accept their own responsibility. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty for holding to your vows, once you have determined you are not excused. (I disagree with your assessment, but I respect enormously that you are not prepared to leave him just because the marriage makes you unhaaaaaaaappy.)

((You don't have to one-and-done on the call-outs to him; you just have to use discretion, and do it with all the respect that is due from any wife to any husband. Pray often and fervently that God help you, and guide you to help Him draw your husband to Himself. Remember: you can drive a car to Hell, but you can't drive a man to Heaven.

((And one last thing: I hear what else you are saying without words. Don't let those feelings of frustration and (very reasonable) anger get away from you. Settle them, and quickly, or else you'll find yourself going full Stepford--and you never go full Stepford.))

My, it would seem that rmaxstringofsyllables is getting rather annoyed that no-one is endorsing his brilliant weblog that he started yesterday.

Ah, yes, the expert on "Charisma Behaviourial Conversational Strategic Technologies." If he'd thrown "Tactical" and "3000" into the title, he'd probably have more success. Tactical is all the rage now; and I won't take any technology seriously unless it has a large, round number appended to it.

Grace, A friend of mine is going through a similar situation as yours. Her husband isn't a believer and she is. Though he isn't using porn, he does leave for periods of time to get high. He's been unfaithful in the past, came from a horrible childhood and is a natural alpha to boot (irrational self confidence, respect for no one, and wild). She's chosen to adhere to God's commands for marriage and commits daily to 1 Peter 3:1-2. There are many examples of women committing, on faith, to these verses and having their long suffering greatly blessed. See Phil and Kay Robertson (Duck Dynasty), or the Machine Gun preacher. My advice to her was to read stories like this for encouragement and to focus daily on what God would have her do (not the world). She has accepted the responsibility of her choice to marry this wild man. Now she's committed to seeing it on through.

If he is leaving for periods of time, that is certainly abandonment. Who knows what "presents" he will bring back some time.

I do find the "blame the woman" attitude in many replies quite poor. Women do have serious challenges these days, but that doesn't mean they are the source of all evil. Men can be quite evil as well and a sexy wife cannot always solve that.

I would also suspect that those who discount the power of porn to hold someone have never seriously felt its pull.

If you really want to save this situation, read on, but be forewarned I'm saying something you likely don't want to hear.

Your desire to change your husband isn't exactly commendable. Sure, sure, you think you can make him a better person, lead him to Christ, etc.

Right?

It's not going over so well with him though, is it?

I think you have two choices. One, you can divorce him and look for another salvage project. Two, you can just give up on changing him and decide to accept him as he is, including the non-religious part. If you do that, and mean it, you might be able to repair your relationship, and who knows, maybe some day he will overcome some of his faults.

As it is though, you probably give off a schoolmarm vibe, Sister Knucklerapper looking over his shoulder and suggesting that he's getting a failing grade.

Maybe you don't mean to come across that way, but so long as you're thinking "...people don't change without consequences, you are not loving your spouse by letting them be dead in their sin, etc. And then people have stories such as I didn't quit drinking/gambling, etc. until my spouse finally moved out..." there's a strong chance he's picking up on the fact that you don't actually love him for who he is, but for who you want him to be.

Who did you marry, your husband, or some other, imaginary man that just happened to look like him but was Christian, devoted to you, etc, etc.?

Once you answer that question, you can decide how to proceed. Decide which man you married, and then stop trying to have an affair with the other one.

"Someone in the manosphere, can't remember who, recommended post-engagement but pre-marital sex to make sure everything functions well; I'd be interested to hear more about this in terms of Christian marriage. What happens if she sux at sex royally in a way that indicates your marital sex life will be death? So, you dump her, but biblically what is your relationship to her now?"

I'll tell you the nightmare story I know personally. My buddy from high school... scott... he married a chick from texas. 24 year old only child... virgin. He spent God knows how much money on a rockstar honeymoon. Their wedding night.. he makes a move and she flips the fuck out. Tells him he's disgusting and a pervert.

Now.. I know this cat. He's a church of christ kid whos idea of wild sex involves actually leaving the lights on.

So this goes on the whole honeymoon... and not only that... but ever day he's spending God knows how much on international phone calls because she has to call her parents every day to bawl like a 4 year old and tell them what a sicko pervert he is.

When they got home she immediately moved back in with her parents... and they got a "divorce" after 4 months.

" So, you dump her, but biblically what is your relationship to her now?" "

As for this specifically... there is no such thing as premarital sex. Sex IS marriage. The ceremony doesn't mean shit biblically. So... you had sex before the ceremony? Oh well. That just means you had the ceremony AFTER you were married. Now... you break up? Its no different than a divorce... all that sex you had with the chick you broke up with becomes ex-post-facto fornication.

Commitment is what makes the difference between fornication and marital sex.

my thinking is... you're going to leave her anyway if she refuses to put out... so you may as well save the legal fees.

Dad: But nothing. Man up and start having sex with your wife. She’s hot for crying out loud. If you can’t make this work with her we’re telling everyone she divorced you because you’re gay. I don’t want to explain your marriage failed because you couldn’t satisfy a virgin.

What you have left is prayer and obedience to the role of a christian wife.

But do not forget about yourself. Spend the energy on making yourself sexually attractive while fulfilling your duties as his wife. Flirt with other men as well but to an extent. Just jokes and playful teasing. This will be helpful in case you develop a self-image issue.

And if you do find him sleeping naked, then its time to cast out the lady and put on the sex freak. Molest him in his sleep. Wake him up with an erection made by your hands(or your mouth). Then look at him in the eyes with lust and say this in a lustful voice:

I dunno. Dude just sounds straight up depressed. He'll be depressed until he decides not to be depressed.

Grace... rather than trying to fix your husband... maybe just accept that your happiness can't be contingent on him. he's a big boy and he's going to have to work some shit out. And he may never do that. So... buy a battery operated alternative and live your life. You don't have to get a divorce to stop being so negatively effected. You just have to decide to put all this away and look for your happiness elsewhere in your life.

"...My take is that if a man isn't interested in sex with a woman who isn't fat or unattractive, she is probably either boring in bed or bossy..."

And here you have it. Women: stay in shape, be exciting in bed (ie figure out what your man wants and GIVE IT TO HIM ON DEMAND), and don't be bossy...it's the ultimate turnoff for most of us. So simple, and would improve so many marriages.