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Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Ok, good for you, you degraded a historical and sociological event into a piece of poetry that a 5th grader could have made.

Also tell me more about how you're complaining about the effects of colonialism while you type on a device that undoubtedly would not be yours had colonialism not occurred. Both in the fact that you possess the money for it.

You see, you can spend time whining and being annoying about how Colonialism was a bad thing, an atrocity. But when it comes down to it you're no better than anyone else, you gain from it, you wipe your ass with the advantages Colonialism provides you. So take your self pity and wallow in some dark corner.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

From someone with the audacity to use what the Pentateuch records as the name God told Moses was His Own, I would expect something a little more profound and less cliche.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

It is unwise to generalize about colonialism, because while sometime has been brutal, in other instances it has been beneficial. No one is now arguing for a renewal of the age of colonialism. But the colonial power was often more humane and fair than the system it replaced. Africa, for instance was occupied by tribes who spent much of their time warring with each other, and since the end of colonialism, country after country has gone through a period of brutal ethnic warfare in which millions have been killed.
The Spanish were probably the most brutal of all the colonial powers, but even there they brought and end to the massive human sacrifices practiced before their arrival. India was not a democracy before colonialism, it was ruled by the Moguls and local monarchs, and while many would dream of an idealized time, it was characterized by actual slavery, the inhumane caste system, mandatory self cremation by wives.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by Benvolio

It is unwise to generalize about colonialism, because while sometime has been brutal, in other instances it has been beneficial. No one is now arguing for a renewal of the age of colonialism. But the colonial power was often more humane and fair than the system it replaced. Africa, for instance was occupied by tribes who spent much of their time warring with each other, and since the end of colonialism, country after country has gone through a period of brutal ethnic warfare in which millions have been killed.
The Spanish were probably the most brutal of all the colonial powers, but even there they brought and end to the massive human sacrifices practiced before their arrival. India was not a democracy before colonialism, it was ruled by the Moguls and local monarchs, and while many would dream of an idealized time, it was characterized by actual slavery, the inhumane caste system, mandatory self cremation by wives.

And Rareboy called it. Here comes the euphemizing.

No, Benvolio.

I'm sure everyone breathed a sigh of relief when the Spanish ended Aztec sacrifices but brought influenza, smallpox, gonnorhea and many other diseases which were utterly lethal and ultimately resulted in countless casualties across both continents-- not just the Aztecs.

There's no way to say that's a good trade and any attempt is a whitewash.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by Benvolio

It is unwise to generalize about colonialism, because while sometime has been brutal, in other instances it has been beneficial. No one is now arguing for a renewal of the age of colonialism. But the colonial power was often more humane and fair than the system it replaced. Africa, for instance was occupied by tribes who spent much of their time warring with each other, and since the end of colonialism, country after country has gone through a period of brutal ethnic warfare in which millions have been killed.
The Spanish were probably the most brutal of all the colonial powers, but even there they brought and end to the massive human sacrifices practiced before their arrival. India was not a democracy before colonialism, it was ruled by the Moguls and local monarchs, and while many would dream of an idealized time, it was characterized by actual slavery, the inhumane caste system, mandatory self cremation by wives.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Like colonialism didn't rely on 'Actual slavery' and the equivalent of an inhumane caste system in New World?

That it didn't rely on the wholesale slaughter of the aboriginal inhabitants and bloody battle after bloody battle between the European 'settlers' and the north American indian tribes?

Are.

You.

Fucking.

Kidding.

Me?

Your grasp of history is about at the level of a grade six student or a Stormfront member.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

^
The Spanish brought smallpox etc but they brought a whole lot of other lifesaving and life-enhancing benefits.

We're democrats and we have to make decisions which benefit the majority and not the Catholics who wring their hands endlessly over the loss of an individual soul

Side note on Catholics...

in the California mission system, Junipero Serra was privy (among many other things, including the rape of Indian women by Spanish soldiers for sport) to the fact that any native religious elder or medicine man who consistenly refused to recant would be taken out into the desert, put into the carcass of a partially gutted bull, and sewn inside to cook.

One of the reasons that the attempt to canonize him as a saint failed miserably once the Natives who had been enslaved in the mission system spoke up about it. Of course it was all news to Catholics.

So no, it doesn't come down to a divide between "rational people" and "hand wringing Christians", much as that's the usual simplicity with which you view complicated topics.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

I'm sure that you are only sorry that the 'superior' white race didn't totally eradicate all those 'inferior' races.

Please explain all the lifesaving and life enhancing benefits that justified the eradication of the aboriginals.

You are parroting the same garbage as the US politician who declared that the whites had actually done the Africans a favour by making them slaves in order to colonize the New World...all with the complicity of the Christian churches.

And trust me, I'm on topic. And that wasn't invective.

For instance, I typed out a long response to tell you what I really thought of Benvolio's and now your perspective on the topic....and then just erased it. You'll just have to let your imagination run wild.

...and as Buzzer has just pointed out...you appear to be staggeringly ignorant of how the Spanish Catholic church acted in the New World. Figures though.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Like colonialism didn't rely on 'Actual slavery' and the equivalent of an inhumane caste system in New World?

That it didn't rely on the wholesale slaughter of the aboriginal inhabitants and bloody battle after bloody battle between the European 'settlers' and the north American indian tribes?

Are.

You.

Fucking.

Kidding.

Me?

Your grasp of history is about at the level of a grade six student or a Stormfront member.

It is unwise to generalize about colonialism. But, to a certainty , it cannot be equated with slavery. Sometimes it involved slavery, often it did not. Your hysterical screaming does not impress any one.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by Benvolio

It is unwise to generalize about colonialism. But, to a certainty , it cannot be equated with slavery. Sometimes it involved slavery, often it did not. Your hysterical screaming does not impress any one.

That's true, in slavery your slave is valuable property and you will, within reason, try to keep him alive so he can continue to work for you.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

XXbuzzxx, I'm glad you discussed an individual case instead of the impossibly MASSIVE topic which the OP raised.

I addressed your intellectually lazy breaking down of the entire topic as being between people who can be rational and Christians who torment themselves over the loss of a single soul.

And I'm sure as usual rather than saying anything of substance you will only continue to snipe at the thread with the vaguest, most obscure asides that tell us just enough to know where you stand but not enough to meaningfully discuss anything. That's your M.O.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

… asides …

I know that I sometimes insert a pic or Youtube or a link in a Hot Topic thread to give an instance or some kind of context. But I'm sorry that I entered this thread with its absurdly wide generalisation for a title. So, as I said before, I'm glad you mentioned an instance in post 20 which might enable some sensible discussion.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

That's true, in slavery your slave is valuable property and you will, within reason, try to keep him alive so he can continue to work for you.

In many colonialist intrusions the overt goal was eradication.

The goal was seldom eradication. My real objection is to the attempts to jump from some specifics to a general rule. Again, no one here is an advocate for colonialism or attempting to justify it. But colonialism does not equal slavery. Often it was better than what preceded or followed it. That is not the same as saying it was good.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by Benvolio

The goal was seldom eradication. My real objection is to the attempts to jump from some specifics to a general rule. Again, no one here is an advocate for colonialism or attempting to justify it. But colonialism does not equal slavery. Often it was better than what preceded or followed it. That is not the same as saying it was good.

As far as I was concerned the OP was trolling in his initial intent... I think this thread was even originally posted in Coming Out & Relationships if I recall correctly. So I completely ignored it. My post wasn't about the OP's point but about your characterization of colonialism as having replaced as much bad as it committed, and being positive on the whole.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Like colonialism didn't rely on 'Actual slavery' and the equivalent of an inhumane caste system in New World?

That it didn't rely on the wholesale slaughter of the aboriginal inhabitants and bloody battle after bloody battle between the European 'settlers' and the north American indian tribes?

colonialism has almost always been extraordinarily harmful to the inhabitants who were previously there prior to the colonization. This isn't limited to "somewhere else" such as Africa, either - it happened here. Deliberate use of smallpox blankets against the "Indians" in the Western territories of the USA certainly speaks to this.

Even colonial powers who we would tend NOT to think of as being barbaric, often were. Think, for example, of the brutality in the colonial days of Belgian Congo.

BOSS: I'm sorry, but I'll have to lay you and Jack off.
SUE: Can you just jack off? I feel like shit today.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

If Mary gave birth to Jesus, and Jesus is the Lamb of God, did Mary have a little lamb?

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by frankfrank

THIS thread was in Health and Wellbeing??!!!??!

colonialism has almost always been extraordinarily harmful to the inhabitants who were previously there prior to the colonization. This isn't limited to "somewhere else" such as Africa, either - it happened here. Deliberate use of smallpox blankets against the "Indians" in the Western territories of the USA certainly speaks to this.

Even colonial powers who we would tend NOT to think of as being barbaric, often were. Think, for example, of the brutality in the colonial days of Belgian Congo.

There was NEVER any real evidence that small pox blankets were intentionally given to Amerind populations. There is one single case where a British officer joking bats around the idea as a means of breaking a siege by Amerind forces on an isolated fort. If he actually followed through on the idea, it didn't really work. The siege was broken by an army relief force and the Amerind forces involved ALREADY had small pox running through their ranks because they were conducting genocidal raids on the farming communities through out the area and had caught the disease from some of the farm families they had killed.

The only other recorded case was Amerinds stealing blankets from a river boat with small pox cases aboard DESPITE the US Army Officer in charge trying to stop them by offering them money and supplies instead.

Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by opinterph

My research indicates the same conclusion.

It's true that the story about using used blankets from smallpox or tuberculosis clinics to fulfill the terms of treaty obligations, while widely suspected and reported, is difficult to prove in the hard historical record.

However, similar albeit less dramatic acts of genocidal intent were most assuredly carried out, such as the systematic and intentional destruction of buffalo in order to weaken the strength of plains tribes, which nearly resulted in the extinction of American bison until its relatively recent recovery. Not to mention bounties paid for the scalps of Indians-- priced by adult or child, policies which were so incredibly popular that bounty offices had to begin requiring that one or both ears be attached with the scalp so that they were not paying out double dip bounties to people who would take two scalpings from the same body.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by pat grimshaw

Another hysterical exaggeration.The biggest benefit is cash paid every fortnight to do nothing.

Every single cent earned by Australian society today was enabled by taking the land, permanently, away from people who used to live there. That's valueless and the continuing value Australian society enjoys by having that land will never go away unless someone else takes it from them.

What's given to indigenous people as guilt money for that is less than chump change compared to that. It's nothing. It's less than dust.

If the biggest thing you have to rage about is indigenous people getting some aid money in exchange for "here, sorry, we completely destroyed your people and way of life, we'll feel bad if we leave you in TOTAL poverty..", then think about how good you have it in life.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

Every single cent earned by Australian society today was enabled by taking the land, permanently, away from people who used to live there. That's valueless and the continuing value Australian society enjoys by having that land will never go away unless someone else takes it from them.

What's given to indigenous people as guilt money for that is less than chump change compared to that. It's nothing. It's less than dust.

If the biggest thing you have to rage about is indigenous people getting some aid money in exchange for "here, sorry, we completely destroyed your people and way of life, we'll feel bad if we leave you in TOTAL poverty..", then think about how good you have it in life.

Of course that is false. The Australian people, by their labor and creativity have built a modern and successful society upon land which was largely vacant before. The aboriginal people retain their way of life--as miserable as it is. If you think they are being mistreated, it is only because you, and they, romanticize their prior existence-- without medicine, soap, bathing or bathroom facilities, or modern tools, clothing etc. Objectively they are far better than before.

Re: Colonialism = Slavery

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Of course that is false. The Australian people, by their labor and creativity have built a modern and successful society upon land which was largely vacant before. The aboriginal people retain their way of life--as miserable as it is. If you think they are being mistreated, it is only because you, and they, romanticize their prior existence-- without medicine, soap, bathing or bathroom facilities, or modern tools, clothing etc. Objectively they are far better than before.

With one broad stroke you completely devalue one way of life and praise another and then claim your conclusion is objective.