El Dudereno: Insatiable Jesus: I can see where having played those types of games might make one better suited than the average person to getting out of a hairy situation involving gunfire. Even in an FPS game cover and concealment are critical. An instinctive understanding of the fact that reload cycle takes time might save somebody's life. Maybe you see the mass shooter drop his AR and pull out a pistol at 50 yards and know that he probably doesn't have a chance in hell of hitting you and you take that moment to run. Or knowing that checking behind you is key.

Not saying it makes anybody an expert at small arms combat, only that some things might be learned that otherwise you would be ignorant of.

Yeah but the wheezing and pants shiatting would probably interfere with remembering all of that.

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I addressed that upthread too. All the ammo burned at the range isn't going to mean squat when confronted with mortal terror and your lizard brain takes over. You know how your "blood runs cold" when faced with death? That's your lizard brain taking over, shutting down all unneccessary functions like digestion and sending blood to where it will do you the most good in combat. Adrenaline pumps and time slows down and you don't have a farking clue how to behave rationally. Unless you're friends with it. Can't learn that at a range. Can't learn that online. Can't learn that by watching. You learn it by doing something like stepping off an aircraft at 12.5k feet, repeatedly. And no, that doesn't mean one jump at your local tandem farm gets you there. Every jump for the first dozen or so opens your "circle of awareness" as your rational brain gets to make friends with your lizard brain.

That ABC video somebody linked to upthread has a nice piece where CCW holders have trained on the range are confronted with a situation that becomes violent very fast. They freeze up, they miss, they remember things that never happened. And they weren't even in true danger, they knew they were part of an experiment and they still choked.

DaCaptain19:Marcus Aurelius: If he was really on top of things, he would have noticed the shooter was firing an AR-15, and then simply waited for the thing to jam.

You must have a really cheap AR-15. My Colt H-Bar Match Competition AR-15 never has jammed on me once. And I shoot it a LOT. Of course I also clean and oil my guns - you know - maintenance? That helps as well.

It also helps to not use steel case ammo in a non-chrome lined chamber.

BHShaman:Let's check in and see in this simulation how well that CoD and the Airsoft folks do with real firearms (shooting real ammo tipped with paint blotters) and in a simulation based on recent events....

Pops

I was unaware that certain states had regulations saying that people carrying guns had to wear helmets, long shirts, and thick mittens.

FuryOfFirestorm:If only my boyfriend was there. He plays a lot of Assassin's Creed, so he would have snuck behind the shooter, stabbed him in the throat, then run off to fist fight the Pope at the Vatican, bang an Italian countess and rescue Leonard DiVinci from the Templars.

Given the bleed-through effects of extended Animus use, that might actually happen.

Stibium: I was unaware that certain states had regulations saying that people carrying guns had to wear helmets, long shirts, and thick mittens.

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Which explains perfectly why some just froze in place and couldn't remember accurately what happened. Mittens? Those were mechanics gloves. They surprised them and they choked, period. Weekend range warriors got pwnd in a situation they even UNDERSTOOD to be a simulation.

The way you people lie, dissemble and nitpick really does betray just how weak you must know your arguments to be. In time, we will grow up and insist on responsible laws for gun ownership, thanks in large part to you folks teaching America that you are batshiat crazy and can't be trusted.

Insatiable Jesus:I addressed that upthread too. All the ammo burned at the range isn't going to mean squat when confronted with mortal terror and your lizard brain takes over. You know how your "blood runs cold" when faced with death? That's your lizard brain taking over, shutting down all unneccessary functions like digestion and sending blood to where it will do you the most good in combat. Adrenaline pumps and time slows down and you don't have a farking clue how to behave rationally. Unless you're friends with it. Can't learn that at a range. Can't learn that online. Can't learn that by watching. You learn it by doing something like stepping off an aircraft at 12.5k feet, repeatedly. And no, that doesn't mean one jump at your local tandem farm gets you there. Every jump for the first dozen or so opens your "circle of awareness" as your rational brain gets to make friends with your lizard brain.

That ABC video somebody linked to upthread has a nice piece where CCW holders have trained on the range are confronted with a situation that becomes violent very fast. They freeze up, they miss, they remember things that never happened. And they weren't even in true danger, they knew they were part of an experiment and they still choked.

I just want to make sure I'm following your line of reasoning in this thread (as much as it could be called reasoning). You're saying here that there's no substitute for experience (I agree with you here). You also say that people who have actually gone out of their way to get some sort of training still don't have what it takes to efficiently respond to a dangerous situation. And you also want to float the idea that simply playing video games might provide some sort advantage?

Insatiable Jesus:DaCaptain19: Marcus Aurelius: If he was really on top of things, he would have noticed the shooter was firing an AR-15, and then simply waited for the thing to jam.

You must have a really cheap AR-15. My Colt H-Bar Match Competition AR-15 never has jammed on me once. And I shoot it a LOT. Of course I also clean and oil my guns - you know - maintenance? That helps as well.

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Mags seem to have more to do with jams than the gun itself, in my experience. My pre-ban 30 rd mags have NEVER caused a jam for me, being the real deal. But I've got some cheap 10rd mags that can be counted upon to jam at least once in an afternoon. Granted, this is 7.62 and a real AK I usually shoot, but my Valmet in .223 has never jammed on me with the factory 30rd mags. Cheap ammo might also be a factor?

plcow:Kazrath: TheSteamingPile: Kazrath: BHShaman: Let's check in and see in this simulation how well that CoD and the Airsoft folks do with real firearms (shooting real ammo tipped with paint blotters) and in a simulation based on recent events....

Pops

Sorry, but I watched the whole video and that testing was VERY flawed.

#1 The student always sat in the same place for each test#2 The "Gunman" did exactly the same thing in each scenario. Walk out, shoot the instructor. Turn, fire at the student sitting in step one location.

If the test was more randomized the results would have been quite a bit different.

I am not arguing one main point made in the video. Training for those circumstances will make you react better. There is no doubt about that. I am just complaining about the flawed test being used to "Drive home a point" when the test was geared for failure. I suspect it could have been a trained, active, navy seal and the results would have been the same due to the "script" the gunman was able to play.

Yep, you took the words right off of my fingertips. How many times, in a real world scenario, is a 'bad guy' going to know who the only person in the room with a concealed weapon is AND exactly where they are sitting. Hardly scientific, but then again, the anti-gun lobby will do anything to restrict the rights and freedoms of others.

Also, don't forget, this woman's 'boyfriend' would have had to called the killers sexuality into question at least a dozen times.

I don't want you to misunderstand me here.

If this scenario was run properly:

* Gunman was told he is doing a social experiment on how a classroom reacts to a gunman opening fire. He is given 2 magazines and told to kill as many people as he can w/o leaving the class room. Run this one time before introducing a CHL.

* CHL is doing a (CHL training / gun training) class. Is the only one in the classroom provided a firearm and is told to not let anyone know he has the weapon.

Start scenario:

If the sce ...

My god people what don't you understand? They wanted to show what could happen when someone comes rushing in. The person kicking in the door will be steady since they already are in that mindset. They shot that person first because YOU DON'T KNOW WHO WILL GET SHOT FIRST IN REAL LIFE, they weren't trying to make that guy save the whole room they wanted to see that one person's reaction.

Combat training for those types of scenarios is the only way to not fumble. Shooting at a target at a range is doing nothing to help you for a real situation.

Artisan Sandwich:I often wonder to myself when reading these threads regarding combat and gunfighting: is there anyone on Fark that is a legitimate, trained and tested weapon operator? I mean, blood and guts combat.

Pretty long odds against it. Even a good third of US frontline soldiers spend their entire military careers without ever actually coming under fire, and the odds for them are orders of magnitude greater than for pretty much any other individual in the country.

/there's a reason why people make comments about how you're more likely to be struck by lightning than die by violence//which then leads to a lot of confusion when some people decide not to pretend reality is a giant dice game

Tatterdemalian:Artisan Sandwich: I often wonder to myself when reading these threads regarding combat and gunfighting: is there anyone on Fark that is a legitimate, trained and tested weapon operator? I mean, blood and guts combat.

Pretty long odds against it. Even a good third of US frontline soldiers spend their entire military careers without ever actually coming under fire, and the odds for them are orders of magnitude greater than for pretty much any other individual in the country.

This.

I spent 5 fairly uneventful years in the military, serving with a distinct hangover much of the time, but without much "distinction" at any time.

I spent a grand total of 15 seconds "under fire". That was in Managua, and it was random shooting at our convoy during the withdrawal of ONUCA equipment. We hit the throttles and un-assed the area post-haste. End of "contact".

I've never seen a person get shot. In fact, I've never seena combat injury first-hand. I've seen two deaths and several injuries, but all were non-combat accidents.

I did shoot long-rifle competetively but, aside from that, my basic military weapons training and growing up as a hunter is about as "expert" as I get.

I think that level of experience is probably representative of the vast majority of our resident Fark Warriors(tm), despite the bravado from every Farker who thinks that 50 pushups and a couple of route marches made them a Green Beret. I know lots of real Vets from Afghanistan tours, and they don't glorify or talk up their experiences. Not many REAL combat-experienced types do.

Highroller48:is there anyone on Fark that is a legitimate, trained and tested weapon operator? I mean, blood and guts combat.

All I can add is that my Dad did SWAT for over 10 years. It was internal to a Prison, so it is different than home breaching and such. As his children we learned what he decided to teach us and almost all of it was about NOT FREEZING. It was about looking first to escape, while covering for loved ones, helping your kids 'play dead' if escape is impossible, and as a last resort how to shoot firearms. I've hunted, played paintball, played airsoft (with BBguns before airsoft), and been trained in shotgun, as well as wrestling and soccer at a very high level in my youth.

What I can tell you is that in airsoft and paintball, I clean house. Because I use cover, have a wide field of vision, and can continue to aim and hit a target under duress. I STILL don't know in the real world if I would freeze up. But, I do know I have a better chance than most. What I don't want is a CCW who passed a paper test shooting me by accident as I try to get the hell away from whomever else might be specifically trying to kill me. Getting a CCW should be WAY HARDER than it is.

The only thing FPSes might be able to teach you in a real world shooting situation is hiding. Camping like a little biatch is a large part of some of these games, so If you're experienced in doing that, or having it done to you, you'll have a better sense of where to hide to maximize the likelihood that the shooter won't check those spots. Or, if you actually have a CCW, you'll have a better sense of how to set up an ambush. As I always say "don't be a hero; be a coward, shoot them in the back."

FireZs:As I always say "don't be a hero; be a coward, shoot them in the back."

To hell with that, I'm a CCW holder and my Plan B is "Get the fark out, fast" (Plan A being "Try not to get into that situation in a the first place). Shooting anyone is pretty far down the list of Plans.

Highroller48:Tatterdemalian: Artisan Sandwich: I often wonder to myself when reading these threads regarding combat and gunfighting: is there anyone on Fark that is a legitimate, trained and tested weapon operator? I mean, blood and guts combat.

Pretty long odds against it. Even a good third of US frontline soldiers spend their entire military careers without ever actually coming under fire, and the odds for them are orders of magnitude greater than for pretty much any other individual in the country.

This.

I spent 5 fairly uneventful years in the military, serving with a distinct hangover much of the time, but without much "distinction" at any time.

I spent a grand total of 15 seconds "under fire". That was in Managua, and it was random shooting at our convoy during the withdrawal of ONUCA equipment. We hit the throttles and un-assed the area post-haste. End of "contact".

I've never seen a person get shot. In fact, I've never seena combat injury first-hand. I've seen two deaths and several injuries, but all were non-combat accidents.

I did shoot long-rifle competetively but, aside from that, my basic military weapons training and growing up as a hunter is about as "expert" as I get.

I think that level of experience is probably representative of the vast majority of our resident Fark Warriors(tm), despite the bravado from every Farker who thinks that 50 pushups and a couple of route marches made them a Green Beret. I know lots of real Vets from Afghanistan tours, and they don't glorify or talk up their experiences. Not many REAL combat-experienced types do.

I would agree with your assessment of Fark Warriors. I fought in Afghanistan, and actually fought. Fark is the only place I ever mention any stories, as I am anonymous and can say whatever I want with no repercussions. But listening to people talk about combat and their expert opinion is funny/saddening/ridiculous. Every situation is different, every person is different, every day is different. There is no one rubric of how a person acts when their life is in danger, and very few people understand that. Additionally, guys who are tough one day are scared shiatless the next. The reason you always hear about a squad/section/platoon/chalk being so tight is that the day that you are having a hard time, someone else will step up and provide that example that you need to see in order to get in gear.

Insatiable Jesus:Which explains perfectly why some just froze in place and couldn't remember accurately what happened. Mittens? Those were mechanics gloves. They surprised them and they choked, period. Weekend range warriors got pwnd in a situation they even UNDERSTOOD to be a simulation.

The way you people lie, dissemble and nitpick really does betray just how weak you must know your arguments to be. In time, we will grow up and insist on responsible laws for gun ownership, thanks in large part to you folks teaching America that you are batshiat crazy and can't be trusted

The way you lie is shocking, but it shouldn't be. That video doesn't show "CCW holders have trained on the range are confronted with a situation that becomes violent very fast." It shows a single, untrained student faltering against an attacker who knows there will be a single, untrained student in the room to shoot.

Insatiable Jesus:Stibium: I was unaware that certain states had regulations saying that people carrying guns had to wear helmets, long shirts, and thick mittens.

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Which explains perfectly why some just froze in place and couldn't remember accurately what happened. Mittens? Those were mechanics gloves. They surprised them and they choked, period. Weekend range warriors got pwnd in a situation they even UNDERSTOOD to be a simulation.

The way you people lie, dissemble and nitpick really does betray just how weak you must know your arguments to be. In time, we will grow up and insist on responsible laws for gun ownership, thanks in large part to you folks teaching America that you are batshiat crazy and can't be trusted.

Well SSSSSOOOOORRYYYY for not watching the video for the dozenth time. It's been shown many times and it was BS then and it's BS now, which is why I didn't bother to go another round. And since you probably don't know, mechanic gloves don't give a good tactile feel, as well most, if not all concealable pistols are designed for nothing to be worn on your hands. Gloved fingers don't fit well, and it's much easier to have an ND.

If you are going to make up some argument that seems like prima facia bullshiat you should at least have good arguments. You seem to think deflection and hipsterism are substitutes for reasoning, but thankfully that doesn't quite work out in real life.

Artisan Sandwich:I would agree with your assessment of Fark Warriors. I fought in Afghanistan, and actually fought. Fark is the only place I ever mention any stories, as I am anonymous and can say whatever I want with no repercussions. But listening to people talk about combat and their expert opinion is funny/saddening/ridiculous. Every situation is different, every person is different, every day is different. There is no one rubric of how a person acts when their life is in danger, and very few people understand that. Additionally, guys who are tough one day are scared shiatless the next. The reason you always hear about a squad/section/platoon/chalk being so tight is that the day that you are having a hard time, someone else will step up and provide that example that you need to see in order to get in gear.I always give people online too much credit for their opinions.

I've never been under fire myself. I do, however, train for it, simply because I don't believe that I, or anyone else, will "rise to the occasion" if it happens, but instead drop to the level of whatever reflexes you've trained yourself to have.

So yeah, I have a different perspective, and probably a different opinion, which is apparently what people consider "trolling" these days. But then, if you wall yourself off in an echo chamber and only let people who have had exactly the same experiences and life stories as you speak up, it's going to get really lonely and really boring really fast.

/and when someone does show up and agrees with everything you say, he/she is more likely to be a con artist trying to scam you

The way you lie is shocking, but it shouldn't be. That video doesn't show "CCW holders have trained on the range are confronted with a situation that becomes violent very fast." It shows a single, untrained student faltering against an attacker who knows there will be a single, untrained student in the room to shoot.

It shows a normal person's reaction to that kind of situation that thinks they have some skills. I know it's tough to see something that pops your bubble but that is how a normal person would react. All the paintball and target practice in the world will never make you ready for life and death situations.

The way you lie is shocking, but it shouldn't be. That video doesn't show "CCW holders have trained on the range are confronted with a situation that becomes violent very fast." It shows a single, untrained student faltering against an attacker who knows there will be a single, untrained student in the room to shoot.

It shows a normal person's reaction to that kind of situation that thinks they have some skills. I know it's tough to see something that pops your bubble but that is how a normal person would react. All the paintball and target practice in the world will never make you ready for life and death situations.

It's the equivalent of taking someone who has had a single driving lesson and having someone swerve in front of them and slam on the brakes on a wet road. While an experienced driver may still hit the car, they're more likely to handle the situation well than one who has just learned how to drive. The methodology is shiat, and doesn't stand up to even cursory examination, unless you already are pushing an agenda aligned with the VPC.

Tawnos:It's the equivalent of taking someone who has had a single driving lesson and having someone swerve in front of them and slam on the brakes on a wet road. While an experienced driver may still hit the car, they're more likely to handle the situation well than one who has just learned how to drive. The methodology is shiat, and doesn't stand up to even cursory examination, unless you already are pushing an agenda aligned with the VPC.

Why? Because that's what the test is supposed to show, I would like to know how the average person handles themselves and not experts.

TNel:Tawnos:It's the equivalent of taking someone who has had a single driving lesson and having someone swerve in front of them and slam on the brakes on a wet road. While an experienced driver may still hit the car, they're more likely to handle the situation well than one who has just learned how to drive. The methodology is shiat, and doesn't stand up to even cursory examination, unless you already are pushing an agenda aligned with the VPC.

Why? Because that's what the test is supposed to show, I would like to know how the average person handles themselves and not experts.

This isn't even an average person who chooses to carry in self-defense, though. It's a single untrained student who doesn't realize the experience he may have volunteered to be part of. How, exactly, does that reflect "the average person"? And how are we supposed to trust that they didn't run this multiple times and only choose the one case that favorably presented their case (consider the "flipping 10 heads" video I posted earlier)?

Tawnos:This isn't even an average person who chooses to carry in self-defense

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I know 5 people in the last 6 months to get a CCW and they have never been to a shooting range, or spend more than 100 rounds shooting their firearm. They also bought their firearm on price and not feel, handling, or experience. I think you are giving CCW more credit than they deserve. YOU may be responsible, practiced, and conscientious. Too many people are getting CCW because of 'FartBama' is making the apocalypse come.