Try to keep in mind that there are a number
of self-proclaimed racists out there who appreciate and promote
Steiner's racial theories precisely because they see these theories
as compatible with their own racist worldviews.

WHO?????

For starters, there's the 1999 pamphlet
"Rudolph Steiner & the Mystique of Blood and Soil: The
Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy" from New
Zealand; you can find extensive excerpts from it at the waldorf
critics list archive, in a message from Dan Dugan on August 11,
2002, subject heading "racist pamphlet from NZ neo-nazi".
(The pamphlet also contains a fair bit of material on Steiner's
views on Jews.)

Peter

Well, Mr. Staudenmeier,

I have been researching the author of the
above pamphlet (who you couldn't or wouldn't even name in your
response to my question.)

1. You have cited ONE author, not "a
number of self-proclaimed racists"

2. The author's name is Kerry Bolton. He is
not only a self-proclaimed Neo-Nazi of a terribly vocal and vociferous
kind. He has quite a number of articles posted all over the web,
mostly on Satanist websites. Mr. Kerry Bolton is also a self-proclaimed
Satanist. Not one of the articles that I have read so far by
Mr. Bolton references or names Rudolf Steiner in any way shape
or form UNTIL

3. The pamphlet above, which I have not yet
found in its entirety. But I did find the review below and in
it, a very interesting phenomenon:

You said above,

...they see these theories as compatible
with their own racist worldviews.

If this booklet quotes from Biehl & Staudenmeier,
then it came out AFTER your article, not before - you can't use
it as an example of work from which your theories arise or a
source which independently supports your theories. You can say
that Mr. Bolton likes your theories and lends his support to
them, but not that his work contains any research of his own
which supports your suppositions.

HAVING studied H.P. Blavatsky's
The Secret Doctrine to a certain extent, as well as the development
and significance of the Theosophical Society, I for one was particularly
pleased to receive a booklet on Steiner. I had, for some time,
rather dismissively regarded this individual as being little
more than a guru of the liberal New Age Movement. It now appears
that Steiner not only had much in common with Blavatsky's own
pronouncements concerning the root races of mankind but also
took things one step further by openly alluding to the inherent
differences between them.

Kerry Bolton unearths Steiner's
links to the philosophical elite and men like Goethe, Herder,
Haeckel and Nietzsche, following the biological thread of racialism
through to the very beginnings of Ariosophy and Franz von Liebenfels'
New Templars. Steiner's thoughts on Race and the unique qualities
of the Aryan psyche are explored in depth, with the author quoting
at some length from works such as The Destinies of Individuals
and of Nations [1915], Materialism and the Task of Athroposophy
[1921], Spiritual Science As a Foundation for Social Forms [1920]
and many others. Steiner himself is shown to have worked alongside
Austrian nationalists promoting folkish unity; to have emphasised
the Nordic Race as the perfect expression of mankind and the
one bearing the most potential for the ongoing process of biological
evolution; to have developed a planetary system alluding to the
innate qualities of each race; and to have warned against racial
miscegenation and the loss of Aryan Man's spiritual potential.

[The Third Reich, however,
denounced Steiner's teachings], although it was probably wary
of his growing influence. The author points out that, at the
same time, many Nazi luminaries - among them Rudolf Hess and
those in the NSDAP's ecological wing such as Siefert, Ludovici,
Haase and Walther Darre himself - began to warm to his ideas,
particularly as the Anthroposophists have always been committed
to organic farming techniques.

[Finally, just to re-emphasise
the effect that Steiner's work has had on racial nationalism
and the concept of Blood and Soil, Bolton quotes from Biehl &
Staudenmaier's Ecofascism: Lessons From the German Experience,
which speaks of Anthroposophy thus: "This ideology mixes
bizarre racialist spiritual theory (which somewhat unsurprisingly
concludes that European whites are at the hierarchical scale
of humanity) with concepts such as 'biodynamic farming', a form
of organic agriculture which tries to foster a more organic relationship
between cultivator and soil."]

This booklet is very well
researched and essential if one is to understand the broad significance
of our racial and spiritual heritage.

This is the extent of the
knowable at present: there is the Self, and there is the Other.
Between both terms lies the continuum which constitutes the playground
and battleground of Life. And on these fields we plant our black
roses...

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I think that is very likely true, but the
pamphlet (I have a copy) does not list an author.

How did you get the copy? Did you buy it from
an internet source? I can't find it uploaded anywhere.

Did you upload the whole article on WC? If
not, would you please either post it or forward it to me personally?
Thanks! (Christine)

I did find the review below

Yes, that review is by Troy Southgate.
I posted the very same thing to the waldorf critics list on May
16, 2002.

If this booklet quotes from Biehl &
Staudenmeier, then it came out AFTER your article, not before

The book I co-authored with Janet Biehl
was published in 1995. My first article on anthroposophy was
published in 2000.

Thank you for the info. Does the pamphlet
you are referring to have the date of publication on it? It is
puzzling that it doesn't have a name on it. What is the exact
title of the pamphlet you have? Is it the same title as the one
reviewed by Troy Southgate? (Christine)

[The Third Reich, however,
denounced Steiner's teachings]

The Nazis also denounced ariosophy. Do
you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically
with Nazism?

I have no conclusions about what ariosophy
had in "common ideologically" with Nazism. I am trying
to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common
ideologically with Nazism. Perhaps the other references you give
me by other "self-proclaimed Nazis" will help with
this. Thanks. (Christine)
Peter

[The Nazis] also denounced ariosophy. Do you conclude that ariosophy
therefore had nothing in common ideologically with Nazism?

I have no conclusions about what ariosophy
had in "common ideologically" with Nazism. I am trying
to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common
ideologically with Nazism.

Dear Christiue,

Ariosophy was the basic sistem of beliefs
of the early Nazi bosses that were former followers of Thule
Geselleschaft. (See Goodrick Clarke and others). When the nazis
changed from a little party till to become the State itself ,
they " put in a corner" some of the old Ariosophy's
gurus, like Lanz or Glauer (alias Von Sebottendorff) , who died
in Turkey in 1945. It's easy to undserstand why. Glauer, for
instance has been writing a "Before Hitler came" book
just dedicated to explain the occult roots of Nazi beliefs .
PS' tricky answer about it is one of his typical way to shuffle
the cards on the table and it's a way to give not answers at
all. Rabbit's escape.

If you have a look at what I have been posting
a couple of days ago about the flight of Hess to UK you'll find
also that the link between Ariosophy and English non-christian
occultism is one of the keys that helps us to grasp the core
of the occult events behind WWII.

A.

I am trying to establish what Anthroposophy
did or did not have in "common ideologically with Nazism.
Perhaps the other references you give me by other "self-proclaimed
Nazis" will help with this. Thanks. (Christine)

Okay, here are more examples of contemporary racists who have
endorsed or promoted Steiner's racial doctrines: From the 1980's,
a small ariosophical group calling itself Die Armanenschaft,
which drew significantly on Steiner's teachings (see Eduard Gugenberger
and Roman Schweidlenka, Mutter Erde - Magie und Politik, Vienna
1987, p. 245). From the 1980's and 1990's, a similar outfit going
by the name Armanen-Orden (motto: "Aryans of all lands,
unite!"), which advertises and sells Steiner's works on
race (see Franziska Hundseder, Wotans Jünger: Neuheidnische
Gruppen zwischen Esoterik und Rechtsradikalismus, Munich 1998,
pp. 126-129). From the 1990's there's Dieter Rüggeberg,
one of the more infamous far-right conspiracy theorists in Germany,
who relies heavily on selected works by Steiner and also advertises
and sells them. Not to mention friendly folks like Andreas Ferch,
a protege of Werner Georg Haverbeck.

How did you get the copy? Did you buy it
from an internet source?

Dan Dugan sent me a photocopy of the pamphlet, which he bought
online.

would you please either post it or forward it to me personally?

I'd be happy to mail you a copy. You can give me your address
offlist (I'm at pstauden@yahoo.de).

Does the pamphlet you are referring to
have the date of publication on it?

Yes, the copyright page says "1999 Renaissance Press".

What is the exact title of the pamphlet you have?

Rudolf Steiner & The Mystique of Blood & Soil: The Volkisch
Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy.

I have no conclusions about what ariosophy
had in "common ideologically" with Nazism. I am trying
to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common
ideologically with Nazism. Perhaps the other references you give
me by other "self-proclaimed Nazis" will help with
this.

They shouldn't help with this. If they do, then I think you're
approaching this backwards. To determine what anthroposophy might
have had in common ideologically with Nazism, it makes more sense
to look directly at anthroposophical doctrine and at Nazi ideology,
rather than taking a detour through later commentaries on the
two. Texts like the New Zealand pamphlet are not reliable sources
on the matter. All they show is that some latter-day racists
appreciate Steiner's racial doctrines, which is why I mentioned
that fact in the midst of my discussion with Tarjei; if terms
like "racism" were nothing more than a moral cudgel,
it would be difficult to explain pamphlets like this one.

Okay, here are more examples of contemporary
racists who have endorsed or promoted Steiner's racial doctrines:
From the 1980's, a small ariosophical group calling itself Die
Armanenschaft, which drew significantly on Steiner's teachings
(see Eduard Gugenberger and Roman Schweidlenka, Mutter Erde -
Magie und Politik, Vienna 1987, p. 245). From the 1980's and
1990's, a similar outfit going by the name Armanen-Orden (motto:
"Aryans of all lands, unite!"), which advertises and
sells Steiner's works on race (see Franziska Hundseder, Wotans
Jünger: Neuheidnische Gruppen zwischen Esoterik und Rechtsradikalismus,
Munich 1998, pp. 126-129). From the 1990's there's Dieter Rüggeberg,
one of the more infamous far-right conspiracy theorists in Germany,
who relies heavily on selected works by Steiner and also advertises
and sells them. Not to mention friendly folks like Andreas Ferch,
a protege of Werner Georg Haverbeck.

Dottie:

So once again we have you trying to blame
Steiner for how others have perceived his work. Do you percieve
any of the listmates or any of the wc mates you have been in
discussion with over the years take his work as in the manner
above? If not what do you attribute this too? Do you want to
blame Dr. Steiner for these twisted perceptions?

And Steiner students would be the first to
say how whacked your perception is of his works as well as those
above you have stated show your studies to be on the right path.
You seem to be holding some pretty ugly company in the way you
discern a thing. I wonder what is up with that? I mean your interpretations
seem to be similar to those you mention above. That's quite interesting.

So once again we have you trying to blame
Steiner for how others have perceived his work.

No, that is not my argument. It makes no sense to blame a long-dead
author for what other people do with his work many years later.
I've explained this to you several times. Is there anything confusing
about it?

So once again we have you trying to blame
Steiner for how others have perceived his work.

Peter:

No, that is not my argument. It makes no
sense to blame a long-dead author for what other people do with
his work many years later.

Peter, it is all you have to go on. Without
other people twisting his teachings to fit their own world, view
as you as well have done, there would be nothing else. His students
work hard as you can see by this list to understand the world
and its origins. These are people trying to make a difference
in the world and to be aware of the difference they make.

And I also recognize you have moved into step
two of your debating ways: the what is it you do not understand
mode. Wow, that was pretty cool. Kind of like the Peter Staudenmaier
6 week experiement. I guess that is a thing that is taught to
people who debate in the manner you do; disregard anything anyone
else has to say about the subject you have already committed
too and then begin the 'what don't you understand part.' Very
interesting.

The split from the intellect and emotion realm
of who we are as spiritual beings is where the downfall is Peter.
And Dr. Steiner pointed to it in the post I left earlier in regards
to Hegel. And we split from that emotional realm for some specific
reason that leads us to pure intellect that turns inwards on
itself as yours has. You only see what you know to be true and
all you look for can only reveal that for then you would be a
liar. And that you are not willing to admit to for the deck of
cards would scatter in the wind and you would have to start all
over. What a manchian task that would be ey?

But the question is where did it all start?
At what point in time did you find the need or desire to go purely
without any kind of spiritual reality in as far as something
more than us? Where did it all go askew? And what would happen
if there indeed was a greater reality than the one we live in?
Would you lose control of who you are? Would that mean your life
wasn't your own? What would that mean to you Peter? What is it
that you are unwilling to let go of? What is it that keeps riding
you to this untruthful path you have embarked on within and without?
What are the true questions of your person Peter? Not that of
others but of you? What is your truth?

You can try and look at the outer parts of
Dr. Steiners work and try to make some sense of it but it does
not work that way. You have made a grave mistake thinking that
ARIOSOPHY was similar to Dr. Steiners Anthroposophy. Did you
find that group first and then found Dr. STeiners group? Why
is it that on the critics you originally played that Goodrich
Clarke was the place to check in order to really get a good grip
on how Dr. Steiners ideology played a part of Nazism. And now
you call Goodrich Clarke biased towards Steiner. So are the Jews
now what? They love him did you know that? They recognize a Rabbi
when they see one for he is that in the truest sense of the word.

You comment that others bring in your political
orientation to get away from the Steiner racist things and so
forth, and nothing could be further than the truth. Stop hiding
behind it. It is important and your personal world view and the
way you have interpreted Steiner's work shows this to be true.

You are so way off Peter and my Rabbi confirms
it for me through his teachings.

Dottie

Want to get into a real conversation Peter?
Try it you might like it or that might be too much of a commitment
for you.

Okay, here are more examples of contemporary racists who have
endorsed or promoted Steiner's racial doctrines: From the 1980's,
a small ariosophical group calling itself Die Armanenschaft,
which drew significantly on Steiner's teachings (see Eduard Gugenberger
and Roman Schweidlenka, Mutter Erde - Magie und Politik, Vienna
1987, p. 245). From the 1980's and 1990's, a similar outfit going
by the name Armanen-Orden (motto: "Aryans of all lands,
unite!"), which advertises and sells Steiner's works on
race (see Franziska Hundseder, Wotans Jünger: Neuheidnische
Gruppen zwischen Esoterik und Rechtsradikalismus, Munich 1998,
pp. 126-129). From the 1990's there's Dieter Rüggeberg,
one of the more infamous far-right conspiracy theorists in Germany,
who relies heavily on selected works by Steiner and also advertises
and sells them. Not to mention friendly folks like Andreas Ferch,
a protege of Werner Georg Haverbeck.

Bradford comments;

There was recently a wonderful example from
Drudge, a rumor spread that Kerry had an affair. The media jumped
all over it, but it was false, it was a dog that wouldn't hunt.
It was placed there, as fact, reality and a detour to a real
life game with very high stakes.

In Sports, and Frank I thought you could help
me out here, there is such a thing as a "Ringer". These
ringers go all the way down to virus and cell imitators and can
be highly qualifed and gifted bowlers or baseball subs that outweigh
and overbalance the team. In Tennis putting an 'A' game sub to
play in a 'C' match is an example of a ringer. Ringers are an
interesting term and and below are words that reflect the reality
and quality of ringers.

Now days we cannot be sure if Terrorist actions
are really wrought by terrorists as claimed by the U.S. The Anthrax
attack in America was really an in house affair because we could
trace the origin of the type of Anthrax almost as if it had a
bar code or time dated signature. So exactly what is my point
here? My point is this.

Character Assassination and manipulation of
either pamphlets or inflammatory intellecutal attacks, creation
of extremist and isolated groups, (many have been proven to be
covers, such as the Palme CIA cover company and Timothy McVeigh
paramilitary groups) infiltrate various areas where Free Thought
is considered dangerous ground. These covertly directed groups
have fostered some of the most intense attacks in order to penetrate
'cells' where people think, act, and have, (Oh for instance)
an international school movement that is superior to public education,
and remains as a sizzling danger to general Ahrimanic agenda.
Many groups are closely monitored by those entities that consider
such things dangerous.

The unfolding of "Ringers" and "Hackers"
has grown from McCarthyism and the Red Scare tactics of J.Edgar
Hoover and the wonderful, but very in your face Hitler Youth.
Yet we have failed to monitor how such thought police have infiltrated
our own consciousness.

Why Tarjei and many of us are looking at the
thinking parameters that Steiner gets lumped with, such as superheated
sound bytes like ANTISEMITISM, is because it appears that the
line of defense is being built for divisions along deep seated
racial lines that are not consciously ackowledged conspiracy
driven activities by those engaged. Now here the question becomes
tricky. I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

What I do believe in is super Archai extended
and deeply rooted dispositions and motives in the very will forces
of humanity. I am of the opinion that the history of Racism and
Richard Wagner's poor showing on Racism, was picked up and became
driven theories behind the birth of Nazism. Call it ARIOSOPHY,
call it the FINAL SOLUTION. Wagner had a karma with unresolved
massive folk and Celtic pictures as well as genetically manipulated
and subconsciouly rooted race, angelic and incarnation gifts.
Wagner was the very big moving Target for forces to build a case
based solidly on Racial misconceptions. Wagner had enormous karma
in this realm.

What has arisen in terms of SPIN today rides
unconsciously in most souls living in our time. For most everybody
there is no boogy man called Ahriman. Ahriman did not nest in
Nietzsche's diseased brain. The spawned friendship between Wagner
and Nietzsche was of no account. The Race Card remains as just
something one catches sight of in ones education along with God
is Dead. But there is no integrated history and certainly no
hidden Ahrimanic, massive, collective set of beings infiltrating
the thought fields of millions of souls. There is no conspiracy.
I mean there is no agreed upon, and conscious conspiracy. It
is really people with sincere axes and sometimes karmic agendas
to grind that play themselves out in the world.

It is easy to show that News is manipulated;
that groups are covers; that hackers are working in the government
and interfere in the internet from out of the Poindexter School;
and that computer viruses mimic..and the mimic aspect of what
we consider straight forward terrorism has been simplified for
the stupid, or "Terrorism for Dummies", is fostered
from the school of George Bush school of Neocon idiots.

In other words, in the 5th Post Atlantean
Epoch we learn that things are not always what they seem. We
learn about self deception, spin, dysfunction and corruption
in high places as well as in ourselves. But one man's corruption
is another man's sincerity. In other words, by not being conscious
of the shadowy subtext of the human being, various STREAMS OF
THINKING attract themselves to you or are repelled by you. In
this attraction and repelling field, naturally no non-visible
beings exist within the layers of the soul. Therefore there are
no conspiracies.

To conclude; Ringers of ideologies and Ideologies
themselves are just cancerous pockets and clubs of beliefs, soul
realms, layers of uncharted being, where the variety of emotional
and mental maturity varies. We are able to name and chart these
fragmented soul and thinking constructs. We can understand Fundamentalism
in misdirected masses and more or less concentrated doses or
benign collections of various ideoologies that collect like lint
on our cultural body or maybe we could say form like pond scum
in the intellectual soul. Yet, to strap oneself with a bomb and
enter a mall with souls blissfully feeling the Christimas Spirit
and exploding oneself reveals a fixed and fatal, unchecked, malignant
ideology.

The world has moved to a place where innocent
questions, or innocent children or innocent ideologies are no
longer innocent but collect votes, are huge voting blocks, or
focus sharp knives of heated prejudice, exactly where there was
none before. This brings swirling public opinion attracted to
over heated sound bytes like ANTISEMITISM. Hate groups can martial
a whole set of "Ringers" and sound bytes and spin have
become a science. Those in the riots or demonstrations against
the IMF or WTO have witnessed infiltration in order to bring
violence where there was none.

"Ringers" in ideologies are playing
in a layer of intellectual soul deceptions that are far more
complex than those gathered in 'Rick's' bar in the film "Casablanca".
To be conscious of what feeds your motives, drives ambitions
and fuels your ideologies means that you break with your own
driven instincts and view humanity from a different perspective.
Don't try this at home kids.

This is a 5th Post Atlantean mandatory Initiation
experienc. Motives are real. As real as guns. They are Weapons
of Mass Deception.

I just went to sleep after reading Peters
post and responding for a moment. I literally felt sick. I sense
a twisting, as in an umbilical cord wrapping itself around groups
of people. I actually had to put my self to bed. So, I get up
wanting to send you a private note as to 'hey Bradford, do you
sense this thing that is happening with Peters words and the
effect it is having suddenly'? And I can write it now because
I have righted it while sleeping and it's almost like spitting
up your food. I didn't know what is was until I slowly began
to wake and then it was shown.

And then I read this. This, what you have
written above, is a downworld/word spiral in a sense. And this
is how Peter keeps doing what he is doing. And he is doing it
over and over at the critics list as well. Funny, how Detlef
mentions the Narmia stories by Saint Lewis the other day and
now I read today that Disney is going to finance one of the stories
told within the book. Right on time is what I say. This is what
Peter really is doing, aware or unaware is of no importance.
And for a second I did not have the stomach for it because I
did not know it or had not experienced it on a conscious level.
Not only is he dragging himself down he is taking others with
him in a stupor of sorts, one may not be aware of the effect
of this downworld/word spiral but it actually just came full
force with his last post naming all the right wing groups that
he puts in Dr. Steiners corner. And this was very pointed in
the direction down.

[I am of] the opinion that the history of Racism and Richard
Wagner's poor showing on Racism, was picked up and became driven
theories behind the birth of Nazism. Call it ARIOSOPHY, call
it the FINAL SOLUTION. Wagner had a karma with unresolved massive
folk and Celtic pictures as well as genetically manipulated and
subconsciouly rooted race, angelic and incarnation gifts. Wagner
was the very big moving Target for forces to build a case based
solidly on Racial misconceptions. Wagner had enormous karma in
this realm.

This is a 5th Post Atlantean mandatory
Initiation experienc. Motives are real. As real as guns. They
are Weapons of Mass Deception.

Bradford elaborates;

Now far be it for us to consider, that in
considering Richard Wagner and his immense pulling in of mighty
Celtic Imaginations from his former incarnation in Great Britain,
we have a direct karmic cause and effect.

Let us consider the shaping of the destiny
of Arthur. Well we might view, as from the film "Excalibur"
and Morte De Arthur, that Merlin was down in the roots of blood
directing heredity in what set of connections in the gene pool
he thought needed to be linked. This is somehow a mighty a fearful
design that is idealized in the origin of the British Folk. What
would happen if the Arthurian myths and Grail myths had never
arisen in the British Folk?

Part of the directing and re-directing of
souls from one incarnation in a certain race to another and those
gathered around the Last Supper, that were streamed towards a
whole other field of interconnected destiny in Celt and French
as well as the refined Consciousness Soul foundations, culminating
in Bacon, Shakespeare, Tolkien...magnificent gifted contributions
to the gene pool, all had a great deal to do with how Britain
became the Consciousness Soul gateway to English Language and
the basis of human freedom.

Now the Michael School was brought down in
the German Language, in the I AM zone. A different mission was
underway for a different time with a different folk. It was a
big card, Michael Intelligence built in integration with the
Consciousness Soul foundations of Britain. Would the German language
and folk carry the cosmopolitan Michael I AM language into culture?

Well here we run into the echoing Karma of
Wagner. Now Wagner did intuit the great Celtic Imaginations that
live as the basis of the consciousness soul, albeit from his
German perspective. But, along with him came the distinct reality
of how Britain was utterly changed from chaotic tribes to a united
Arthurian Round Table of all cultures, to be the bearer of the
Consciousness Soul impulse for the world. An Image of a great
12 streams and the chaotic Melting Pot of the future America.

We move down the road to who is pissed off
and in what sense Karma plays itself out in Race issues. Well,
if Wagner had been a conscious initiate, certain statements and
forces might have played themselves out differently. 1879 and
Wagner at 33 all have to do with the unfolding development of
the I AM vision of his masterwork "Parsifal". That
and the Ring Saga tags right into Tolkien and the ancient bridge
of the Consciousness Soul. But coming in close to Wagner, Nietzsche
makes close friends with Wagner. Here is a real weak point. Nietzsche.
Now we have two weak points and we also have the hidden intention
of landing Steiner in this I AM Language bearing impulse of the
Germanics. German the Language of the I AM.

Wagner and Nietzsche and Life itself foiled
the higher attempts at bringing the Germanic influence down.
Kaspar Hauser, just a little insignificant person in the deck,
is thwarted from bringing something of a cultural brotherhood
influence into the stream of the unfolding potential of the German
mission. There is no doubt that the conquering note of the dawning
Michael Event was celebrated under the 1879 Parsifal of Wagner.

But already, the weak points in Wagner/Nietzsche
and a massive influx of totally destroying, dividing Germany,
are pre-figured in the background of many occult Schools. The
Berlin Wall division of Germany was on the blocks long before
all this nightmare hit the fan. Just as it was a fact that Christ,
this predicted God, would somehow, through betrayal, end up nailed
on Golgotha. It was under the surface of things and many souls
knew something big was in the works.

That the I AM language of Michael would be
left on Steiner's shoulders and the unfulfilled mission of Wagner
and Kaspar Hauser and loads of squirmy little swarms of occultists,
would serve to interfere by using Wagner's unresolved ancient
Celtic Mage manipulation of directing souls from the Last Supper
to the Grail community and the foundation of Britain...would
be used as a vicious weapon of mass deception.

Racism was to be the hot button karmic issue.
A term, when used for what it was used for out of the Nazi unfoldment,
created a devastating blow to new I AM potential global Language
and culture development. So, I have carved out something of the
inner spiritual intent on the side of Michael, but there is another
side that played off the weaknesses and unconscious forces in
both Nietzsche and Wagner. Naturally they are not soley to blame.
But to prevent such a Consciousness Soul unfolding cultural sweep
that Shakespeare and the Arthurian and British model of Freedom
-

The Magna Carta

...here is a law which is above the King and
which even he must not break. This reaffirmation of a supreme
law and its expression in a general charter is the great work
of Magna Carta; and this alone justifies the respect in which
men have held it.

King John of England agreed, in 1215, to the
demands of his barons and authorized that handwritten copies
of Magna Carta be prepared on parchment, affixed with his seal,
and publicly read throughout the realm. Thus he bound not only
himself but his "heirs, for ever" to grant "to
all freemen of our kingdom" the rights and liberties the
great charter described. With Magna Carta, King John placed himself
and England's future sovereigns and magistrates within the rule
of law.

We can ask ourselves what might have happened
of Germany had become the I AM bearer of Cultural and global
understanding? Was antisemitism part of the eating away of this
impulse? Do men meet Principalities and Powers and do they fail?
Do forces attack the very potentials that humanity might achieve?

If I look to America and Columbine, "Bowling
for Columbine" and I examine what type of ideals and internet
poison the two boys fed upon before they convinced their 16 to
18 year old souls that they would take an action like they did....Well
I have to look at enflamed ideologies that are rabid and feed
off the weaknesses in conceptual thinking, and feed off the lack
of grasp of the mighty greatness that humanity is attempting
to achieve. I have to look at people who promote such rabid ideas...and
as someone once said, wisely, Because Charles Manson listened
to the Beatles, "Helter Skelter", were the Beatles
murderers?

Wagner and Nietzsche carried something amazing,
but there was a prepared trap waiting to snatch up the whole
linkage between racism, the final solution and the mingled greatness
in the Jewish blood. Such greatness could flow freely forth and,
as Tarjei has rightly said, enter all mankind as an offering
and not become a twisted book like "Holy Blood Holy Grail".
You can bet that if Kaspar Hauser had not been so completely
and occultly interfered with, the flaws in Nietzsche and Wagner
would not have been has deadly and humanity might have antidoted
the effects of what is considered a "War In Heaven".

Description

Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln, and Richard
Leigh, authors of The Messianic Legacy, spent over 10 years on
their own kind of quest for the Holy Grail, into the secretive
history of early France. What they found, researched with the
tenacity and attention to detail that befits any great quest,
is a tangled and intricate story of politics and faith that reads
like a mystery novel. It is the story of the Knights Templar,
and a behind-the-scenes society called the Prieure de Sion, and
its involvement in reinstating descendants of the Merovingian
bloodline into political power. Why? The authors of Holy Blood,
Holy Grail assert that their explorations into early history
ultimately reveal that Jesus may not have died on the cross,
but lived to marry and father children whose bloodline continues
today. The authors' point here is not to compromise or to demean
Jesus, but to offer another, more complete perspective of Jesus
as God's incarnation in man. The power of this secret, which
has been carefully guarded for hundreds of years, has sparked
much controversy. For all the sensationalism and hoopla surrounding
Holy Blood, Holy Grail and the alternate history that it outlines,
the authors are careful to keep their perspective and sense of
skepticism alive in its pages, explaining carefully and clearly
how they came to draw such combustible conclusions. --Jodie Buller

This is just my take on the thing. The Devil
is always in the details, is it not?

It has everything to do with the discussion. It referred (ironically,
admitted) to your previous statement, which you conveniently
snipped.

In that case, you misunderstood my "previous statement".
Here is what I wrote to Christine:

The Nazis also denounced ariosophy. Do
you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically
with Nazism?

As you can see, there is no syllogism here,
and the only statement is a simple factual claim. I said nothing
about any substantive similarities between anthroposophy and
ariosophy; instead I asked Christine a question, one which seemed
quite reasonable in the context of our discussion. Questions,
you'll recall, are different from statements, and they do not
normally figure prominently in syllogisms of any sort. The issue
of similarities in content between anthroposophy and ariosophy
is a very interesting one, but it makes little sense to approach
that issue by looking at Nazi denunciations of either the one
or the other.

That the I AM language of Michael would
be left on Steiner's shoulders and the unfulfilled mission of
Wagner and Kaspar Hauser and loads of squirmy little swarms of
occultists, would serve to interfere by using Wagner's unresolved
ancient Celtic Mage manipulation of directing souls from the
Last Supper to the Grail community and the foundation of Britain...would
be used as a vicious weapon of mass deception.

Racism was to be the hot button karmic
issue. A term, when used for what it was used for out of the
Nazi unfoldment, created a devastating blow to new I AM potential
global Language and culture development.

Bradford and the tragedy of the I AM;

The Germanic thinking capacity was to be the
center for the unfolding of the I AM culture of humanity. Everything
was prepared for it to happen. The greatness of Fichte in the
I AM of thought, the artistry of Wagner bringing the I AM as
a visible rite in his "Parsifal" where Blood, heredity
and the entire meeting between the Inner I Am and the Blood of
Christ become cognitive were building and building. Wagner simmered
over with the Imaginations that had formed the basis of the Consciousness
Soul in his Ring Saga.

Steiner knew that the Language and Thinking
capacity that should have arisen from the mighty foundations
of the Consciouness Soul, as the next plateau of development,
was in the capacity of the Germanic thinking skills to arrive
at the core revelation of the I AM. Steiner was swept by the
Tragedy that this mission was in failure mode. It was going down
in flames and Steiner was left to shoulder the upbuilding revelation
of all that could have been understood as the context of the
rising capacities of humanity, gaining stronger and stronger
insights and unveiling the true Mysteries of the I AM and the
Christ Event, before entering the gateway and sanctuary to the
Spirit Self.

We apparently have very little idea what a
significant crisis in higher development called forth such mighty
adversaries out of the woodwork. We don't even have an idea of
how these adversaries crystalize themselves in our fellow human
beings. We don't even hold the depth of what Steiner was Shouldering
in relation to the Global events that have transpired, all the
way to the A-bomb.

"I should like, by way
of introduction to our New Year contemplation, which rightly
is also a contemplation of the whole course of time, to recall
some passages from essays which I wrote more than thirty years
ago and which are shortly to be published. Although connected
with personal experiences, these essays have a definite significance
if we want to look into the whole spiritual condition of the
present day. My purpose in writing them was, as you will notice,
to rouse the conscience of the German people, to give expression
to that which could be perceived even then, as fundamentally
lacking in the spiritual life of the German nation.

I will read to you some passages
from one of these essays entitled "The Spiritual Mark of
the Present Day". These passages refer to what was taking
place more than thirty years ago, to a past which was then the
present. I wrote in the very midst of the spiritual life prevailing
at that time, amid symptoms which showed themselves most markedly
in the life of thought of the German nation. I wrote:

"It is with a shrug of
the shoulders that our generation recalls the period when a philosophic
current ran through the whole spiritual life of the German people.
The mighty impulse of the times, seizing men's minds at the end
of last century (i.e., the eighteenth century) and the beginning
of this one, and boldly facing the highest imaginable tasks,
is now looked upon as a regrettable aberration. If anyone dares
to raise an objection when the conversation turns upon Fichte's
fantasies, or Hegel's insubstantial play of thoughts and words,
he is regarded by his listeners as a mere amateur, who has as
slight an idea of the spirit of modern scientific investigation,
as he has of the thoroughness and seriousness of philosophic
methods. Kant and Schopenhauer at best are tolerated by our contemporaries.
It is apparently possible to trace back to Kant the somewhat
scanty philosophic crumbs used by modern science as foundational;
and Schopenhauer, besides his strictly scientific works, also
wrote a few things in a light style, on subjects accessible to
people with a limited spiritual horizon. An open mind for that
striving towards the loftiest heights of the world of thought,
an understanding for that soaring of the spirit which in the
realms of science went parallel with our classic period of culture
 this is lacking now. The serious side of this phenomenon
only appears when we take into consideration that a persistent
turning away from that spiritual goal implies for the German
people the loss of their own Self, a breaking away from the Spirit
of the Nation. For that striving sprang from a deep need in the
German nature. It does not enter our mind to wish to deny the
manifold mistakes and one-sided fallacies which Fichte, Hegel,
Schelling, Oken, and others, committed in their bold inroads
into the kingdom of idealism. But the impulse which in all its
grandeur inspired them should not be misunderstood. It is the
impulse most fitting for a nation of thinkers. The German nation
is not characterized by that living sense for immediate reality,
or the outward aspect of Nature, which enabled the Greeks to
create their wonderful and imperishable works of art. Among the
Germans there is instead, an unceasing urge of the spirit toward
the cause of things, toward the apparently hidden, deeper origins
of the Nature which surrounds us. Just as the Greek spirit found
expression in its wonderful world of plastic forms, so the German,
more concentrated within himself, less open to Nature but on
that account more with his own heart, cherishing intercourse
with his own inner world, sought his conquests in the world of
pure thought. The way, therefore, in which Fichte and his successors
looked upon the world and life was truly German. This is why
their teachings were so enthusiastically received; this is why,
for a time, they held the whole life of the nation enthralled.
This is why we must not break with their spiritual leading. Our
solution of the difficulty should be to overcome mistakes, while
continuing the natural course of development on the lines laid
down at that time. Not what these spirits found or thought to
find, is of lasting value, but how they faced the problems."

At the time when this essay was written the
German nation had to be shown these truths, which were threatening
to disappear from their field of vision. We were living then
in another age than the present, an age in which, had we willed
it, it might still have been possible for certain circles to
unite with the spirit, then at the beginning of its decline,
and thus to prepare the way for an all-pervading and lasting
development of the human impulse.

Bradford concludes;

In experiencing the tragedy that overwhelmed
Germany it is important to focus on the real capacity that was
thwarted and scuttled. It is important to see how so called historians
still hover around the festering dregs of antisemitism and racism
when so much more was at stake. I wander back into the sense
of great disappointment that Angels themselves feared for humanity
and Steiner attempted to express before catastrophe fully turned
to melt down.

Lifting the I AM into the Spirit Self and
observing the great missions that the various language beings
built for the foundations of thinking, we see the sweep of Greek
Culture, British and Consciousness Soul culture and the capacity
for grasping the kernel of immortality of the Logos in the I
AM structure and then we see the "Titanic" wreck and
the collapse of our vision into the dregs that are still presented
by our guest, P.S.

You can see that such a book "Holy Blood
Holy Grail" is just a sloppy mess of all that remains a
failed understanding. That no such misunderstanding arises in
Steiner's grasp of the Hebrew People and the Christ Event. It
was just refused. It was refused like some stupid stadium soccer
match or football game crowd. And they yelled in our faces, "Give
us Barabbas".

The generous impulse that was offered to the
German culture was to penetrate the greatness and maturity of
the I AM core and understand the stream of earthly blood and
heredity and the higher cosmic core of the I AM. If you want
to understand all that Steiner desired in bringing Spiritual
Science through the Germanic Language and thinking forces you
have to understand Fichte and the very threshold of the I AM
that Germany was balancing on.

We look now at Tolkien and we come again to
the threshold of the mystery of the foundations of the Consciousness
Soul. We find no tainted racism in Tolkien, except that Racism
is looked upon as how the different Groups have different capacities.
The Racism of the Elves and their sordid and horrific history
that leads to the degeneration of their noble race, called the
Orcs.

We have Dwarves, Men, Hobbits... we have the
problem that Steiner refused to make into a petty issue. "Lord
of the Rings" is a fantasy because humanity and P.S. and
his type of bottom feeders refused to hold onto the maturity
of all that humanity could see and understand. Races, Languages
(France and Joan of Arc) cultures have produced different capacities
in the soul. Human beings have incarnated in these historical
places and some human beings, like Wagner helped shape the great
potential freedom of the Magna Carta. Such a thought is hard
to understand, but let me put it another way.

Our dilettante and decadent misunderstandings
that frollic around as historical analysis, mine included, betray
our limited scope of understanding. The Tragedy and failure to
see the sweep, the investment of human freedom and courage to
build the depth of wisdom and that this wisdom is there so that
we may face real issues reveals our cowardice.

Steiner offered the opportunity to face real
issues. Not Hobbits and Orcs and the vast varieties of Aryan
or mixed race men that appear in the the story and films spawned
by Tolkien. The rich lore of the Consciousness Soul had to gummed
down, diluted because of the very miserly and miserable thinking
capacities of people, all over the board, but people just like
Peter and just like me and you. We might have been able to approach
the mysteries of the I AM. Perhaps the thinking capacity of the
Germans and the infested nightmare that has gripped the world
all the way to Columbine and these internet arguments could have
been approached so very differently. Holy Blood and Holy Grail
would never have made it to the publishing house.

But the Tragedy and the complexity is something
that humanity refuses to face and history or potential roads
through history were catastrophically compromised. Refuses, yes,
Peter is not facing it, he is picking out moral garbage to feed
to pigs and further contribute to new Columbine disasters. Thinking,
hell, these are thoughts formed in shrunken heads. What is hard
is facing the complexity of the worlds foundations with an open
mind.

Steiner and Alexander the Great certainly
brought about a mixing of the races, and gladly. To experience,
that say, Aristotle and Alexander had a Karma that mixed races
and that Merlin and the British and Celtic foundations of the
Consciousness Soul, prided themselves on the redirecting and
shaping of hereditary forces, bring such a collection of human
beings into the complexity of history and Karma and head on with
the Race Card and the undercurrent nightmare of all that is what
if. What if instead of Mingling and have the various cultures
flow together in mutual richness, we catastrophically cart them
off to Industrial, production line, annhilation and begin cleansing
the earth of various breeds of human.

How all this came about is so much deeper
than this pipsqueak can even handle that it behooves Peter to
Stand Down or Sit up like a real human being.

His students work hard as you can see by
this list to understand the world and its origins. These are
people trying to make a difference in the world and to be aware
of the difference they make.

I quite agree. What does that have to do with
Steiner's racial and ethnic doctrines? Do you mean that people
who try to understand the world and try to make a difference
in the world cannot hold racist or antisemitic beliefs?

At what point in time did you find the
need or desire to go purely without any kind of spiritual reality
in as far as something more than us?

That isn't my perspective. I believe in spiritual
realities that are more than us.

And what would happen if there indeed was
a greater reality than the one we live in? Would you lose control
of who you are? Would that mean your life wasn't your own?

I don't think that our lives are our own in
any case. Our lives are lived with other people, with other creatures,
within social and ecological contexts that are much larger than
any individual.

What is it that you are unwilling to let
go of?

Well-founded conclusions about history, in the absence of persuasive
counter-arguments.

You can try and look at the outer parts of Dr. Steiners work
and try to make some sense of it but it does not work that way.

It doesn't? How do you make sense of Steiner's work?

You comment that others bring in your political orientation
to get away from the Steiner racist things and so forth

That was not my comment. I don't know why several of you are
more interested in my political orientation than in the ostensible
theme of this list. I very much enjoy discussing my political
orientation, but I came here to talk about "the Steiner
racist things" and related matters.

His students work hard as you can see by
this list to understand the world and its origins. These are
people trying to make a difference in the world and to be aware
of the difference they make.

I quite agree. What does that have to do
with Steiner's racial and ethnic doctrines? Do you mean that
people who try to understand the world and try to make a difference
in the world cannot hold racist or antisemitic beliefs?

Peter, do you think that the Steiner students
you encountered on this list and the wc list believe in an Aryan
white race that will take over the world or at least is trying
to and using Dr. Steiners work to bring it about? If so of course
you are speaking once again on ARIOSOPHY and not Anthroposophy.
I realize they sound alike but of course we know that means nothing,
right Peter? And do you believe they believe we are talking about
a physical time regarding these comments?

Do you believe the Anthrosoposophists are
racist Peter? And if so against who specifically? I am not talking
about the five or six you found out of thousands and thousands
of Anthroposophists I am talking as a whole? Do you find them
to be racists?

Looking at Christians, who also hold Ku Klux
Klan ideologies they percieve came from the Bible, can you hold
the other Christians who do not percieve Christ in that manner
to the same flag pole as those who also sit with the racial ideology
of the KKK? Are all Christians following a racist ideology when
following the New Testament? Are the Jews racist in your mind
for the concept that they are Gods chosen people?

Peter:

That isn't my perspective. I believe in
spiritual realities that are more than us.

Dottie

So, Peter, which spiritual realities are you
speaking of here? I have to wonder if you are not speaking of
the Intellect as a spiritual reality? How does that work in your
world view? If you stand against God wouldn't that make the opposite,
Satan, say, out of the picture as well? Or is it that Satan is
fighting the good fight because he stand up against all the seperatism
and is fair to all? It actually feels like a mindxxxx to me.
Your ego is in control and you can not see what is really happening
because 'it' is in control. It'd be interesting to know what
the ego is protecting for you. It's actually not protecting anything
now but it may have in the past way back when. Great book on
that called Embracing Our Selves. Talks about how the ego protects
that which it percieves is wounded to make sure this does not
happen again. It's actually a noble gesture but unfortunately
one becomes a slave to the 'ego' and it is so frieken hard to
walk or talk it down into balance with the opposite that is trying
to come through.

Dottie

And what would happen if there indeed was
a greater reality than the one we live in? Would you lose control
of who you are? Would that mean your life wasn't your own?

Peter

I don't think that our lives are our own
in any case. Our lives are lived with other people, with other
creatures, within social and ecological contexts that are much
larger than any individual.

Dottie

Why not? And its very interesting to have
this take because it really does play into the idea that the
ego has taken over and it really is not your own then. And for
me this is a core lesson of the work by Dr. Steiner or at least
as how I percieve them. I become 'free' when I am not a slave
to my feelings and my thoughts, when I actually am aware of why
I am thinking what I am thinking and if where it came from. Is
it my thought or is it something conditioned from something else.
Yours feels conditioned. Well most of ours are anyway and I guess
that is back to the idea that our lives aren't our own anyway.
But they can be. And damn it if I am not going to make it so
in this lifetime. What about you?

Dottie

What is it that you are unwilling to let
go of?

Peter:

Well-founded conclusions about history,
in the absence of persuasive counter-arguments.

Dottie

You know what Peter you are right to a certain
extent. But you MUST take into consideration of that which you
are unaware of. And for you it is this spiritual reality that
you really do not look at all that much although I do sense it
is more than before. And boy is that a good thing. And not because
it will fit into something nice and neat I believe in rather
because you will be FREE. Absolutely free. And I am telling you
this book POF is the way to find it. There may be other ways
but I do not know what they are. I haven't read them so once
again I call on my listmates to make it available if anyone has
another name that speaks to the same idea without all the heaviness
of a Steiner connection for Peter.

And in regards to persuasive counter arguments
that truth is Peter only you can find it. Nobody can make you
believe a thing. But if you do not rise to 'wonder' about a thing
you will not find it. It's just impossible. The Steiner students
have shown you their interpretations of Steiners work. For the
most part it is not out of loyalty it is out of their inner perception
of his work. You understand the outer perception of his work
and if you can not look inside to see what he is really talking
about even if you disagree you will not find it. If you already
know a thing you leave yourself no room to grow. You keep moving
sideways.

And it really is not about you being wrong.
Its about wanting the truth and not Peters truth but the objective
truth of a thing. You are here for some reason and I tell you
it is not to prove Steiner was an antisemite and a whatever semite
names you got going on rather it is for you to see yourself outside
yourself and how others are percieving you. It doesn't make them
right and wrong but you can get a good idea about the impact
of how you go about a thing and where people sense a lack of
honesty or sincerity. And that is really all we own of ourselves
Peter, our integrity, our being, it is ours and nobody elses.
It doesn't make all the things said or any of the things said
as true but what it does do is give you an opportunity to see
yourself in a way. And you are asking for this for some reason
and it does not have to do with this Steiner is an antisemite
thing. It is much deeper than that.

Dottie

You can try and look at the outer parts
of Dr. Steiners work and try to make some sense of it but it
does not work that way.

Peter:

It doesn't? How do you make sense of Steiner's
work?

Dottie

Well I had my own questions just like you
although they were of a different nature. I found in Dr. Steiner
the things he said that lined up with my experiences that showed
themselves to be self- evident to me. It wasn't an outer experience
of reading his words and saying 'oh that is neat'. Nor was it
trying to make the other things I had found on my own before
finding him to be right. I was searching for an inner truth and
I didn't want Dottie's version of it I wanted the truth to live
within me. I wanted to understand that which is ongoing even
after one dies or even if there was such a thing that lives on
after we die. Just because one has 'spiritual experiences' does
not mean there is an ongoing spiritual reality or at least I
so had felt. (although I tell you I have found we never die even
if you can not believe it)

I realize you find the outer work which is
exactly what the ARIOSOPHISTS and the Hitler regime and anyone
else who wants to make this world the one and only world. Now,
you can do that but it isn't the truth and if you want to know
it for yourself you will have to open your heart and mind to
the possibility. That is all you have to do, for your heart will
lead the rest of the way. And it is not a mushy heart Peter.
You have a very strong heart that can be seen but what will you
use it towards is the question? Will you leave yourself a legacy
of truths that will speak forever here and in the afterworld,
even if you do not believe, or will you keep moving on this path
that leads to nowhere for it isn't the truth regarding Dr. Steiner?

Peter:

That was not my comment. I don't know why
several of you are more interested in my political orientation
than in the ostensible theme of this list.

Dottie

But did you notice how noone judged you for
it in the manner that many people would have? It's just a note
to see where your sympathies lie for me. It's like reading that
book I told you about way back when about Sojourner Truth. Or
maybe a racist person writing about Abraham Lincoln and so forth
who may have a certain world view that does not allow him to
see things objectively even if he thinks he is. You are looking
at this through a black and white prism it seems to me and your
politics as they lie to the somewhat extreme left have a bearance
on how you view things. It doesn't have to be specifically about
Dr. Steiner it could be about any subject. Have you not noticed
that the conservative right wing does the same thing. Its all
this hyperbole. It's not truth, it's men caught in what they
believe to be true against all logic or thinking. And I think
it is because somewhere along the line they learned they could
not be wrong. They could not be made a fool of and so we have
this extreme thing that happens when a debate takes place: no
free thinking just slavery to ones own preconcieved conceptions.
One can not change their minds unless it is to better their point.
And that is being a slave to ones ego, not even another God or
whathave you, to ones OWN EGO.

Peter:

I very much enjoy discussing my political
orientation, but I came here to talk about "the Steiner
racist things" and related matters.

Dottie

But you don't see how they affect one another.
Why not? You at times hold that the Steiner students don't see
your view as they are students of Steiner. And here you are a
student to the extreme left and you do not see what that has
to do with your take on Dr. Steiners work not to mention you
do hold an atheistic outlook. You can keep window dressing it
but anyone can see past it if they so care to look.

Have you reread anything the Anthroposophists
have offered up for you to look further for a better understanding?

Peter:

Yes, I do this sort of re-reading rather
frequently.

Dottie

Do you look to see where you can shore up
your 'proof', or do you look to see what it is they are saying
to see if it makes any sense to your own take on his words? Don't
be a slave Peter to your preconcieved notions Peter if you can.
I mean if you want to continue this charade you can but it will
do nothing to add onto your person.

Peter, do you think that the Steiner students
you encountered on this list and the wc list believe in an Aryan
white race that will take over the world or at least is trying
to and using Dr. Steiners work to bring it about?

No.

Do you believe the Anthrosoposophists are racist Peter? And
if so against who specifically? I am not talking about the five
or six you found out of thousands and thousands of Anthroposophists
I am talking as a whole? Do you find them to be racists?

No, I do not think that all anthroposophists are racists. I don't
think that very many of them are racists. A lot of anthroposophists,
particularly English-speaking ones, appear to be largely unaware
of the less pleasant sides of Steiner's racial doctrines.

So, Peter, which spiritual realities are
you speaking of here? I have to wonder if you are not speaking
of the Intellect as a spiritual reality? How does that work in
your world view?

No, I didn't mean intellect. I think you probably only see my
intellect at work here because that's what I think is appropriate
for discussion forums like this one. Try to keep in mind that
you and I otherwise know very little about one another. The spiritual
realities that I experience are not intellectual, they are largely
sensual, involving trees and rivers and skies and bodies and
so forth.

If you stand against God

I don't stand against god, I simply don't believe in her/him/it.

The Steiner students have shown you their interpretations
of Steiners work. For the most part it is not out of loyalty
it is out of their inner perception of his work.

Yes, I see that. Some of you seem to want me to just take those
inner perceptions at face value and not challenge them by comparing
them to what Steiner wrote and said. I don't see the sense in
that sort of approach to public dialogue.

Well I had my own questions just like you although they were
of a different nature. I found in Dr. Steiner the things he said
that lined up with my experiences that showed themselves to be
self- evident to me.

Cool. That's not how I look at Steiner's work, though. I look
at it as a historical phenomenon.

But you don't see how they affect one another. Why not?

Because I disagree with you that they affect one another in this
way. I think that arguments should be judged on their merits,
not according to any other beliefs held by the person who happens
to put the argument forward. I really do enjoy talking about
politics, it just isn't why I came here. I came here to talk
about Steiner. I encourage you and everyone else to keep my politics
in mind whenever you read anything I write about Steiner, but
I think it simply makes much more sense to discuss the actual
subject matter rather than focusing on each other's political
perspectives. There are lots of other forums where we can argue
about politics.

Now the Michael School was brought down
in the German Language, in the I AM zone. A different mission
was underway for a different time with a different folk. It was
a big card, Michael Intelligence built in integration with the
Consciousness Soul foundations of Britain. Would the German language
and folk carry the cosmopolitan Michael I AM language into culture?

Well here we run into the echoing Karma
of Wagner. Now Wagner did intuit the great Celtic Imaginations
that live as the basis of the consciousness soul, albeit from
his German perspective. But, along with him came the distinct
reality of how Britain was utterly changed from chaotic tribes
to a united Arthurian Round Table of all cultures, to be the
bearer of the Consciousness Soul impulse for the world. An Image
of a great 12 streams and the chaotic Melting Pot of the future
America.

We can ask ourselves what might have happened
of Germany had become the I AM bearer of Cultural and global
understanding? Was antisemitism part of the eating away of this
impulse? Do men meet Principalities and Powers and do they fail?
Do forces attack the very potentials that humanity might achieve?

Bradford comments;

Owen Barfield certainly gives a Consciousness
Soul vision and gets right down to the nitty gritty of a "Speakers
Meaning". The expresion and use of such hot button words
like Antisemitism and Racism, are pawned off as expressions which
the mighty 'discerning' general public can digest and disect
and understand clearly the difference between rumor and reality.
Bull----!

Barfield:

"Words can expand in
meaning -- so that they become more encompassing -- or they can
contract in meaning. Historically, the latter process has dominated,
so that, for example, a single word combining the meanings, "spirit,"
"wind," and "breath" in a unified manner
subsequently splits into three separate words, each with a more
restricted meaning. Narrower meanings conduce to accuracy of
communication, and result from rational analysis. Broader meanings
support fullness of expression, and result from imaginative synthesis.
Communication deals with the how, and expression with the what.
"Perfect communication would occur if all words had and
retained identical meanings every time they were uttered and
heard. But it would occur at the expense of expression."

"Language is a living
and creative power, from which man's subjectivity was slowly
extracted. The function of language is to create that esthetic
"distance" between man and the world "which is
the very thing that constitutes his humanity. It is what frees
him from the world."

He is no longer a peninsula
pushed out by natural forces. He is a separated island existing
in a symbolic universe. Physical reality recedes in proportion
as his symbolic activity advances. He objectivizes more and more
completely. But the symbols were the product of his own inner
activity in the first place and they never really lose that character,
however completely his very success in objectifying them may
make him forget the fact. Forever afterwards, in dealing with
things he is, as Cassirer puts it, "in a sense conversing
with himself." (Worlds Apart)

Languages today possess only
the faintest traces of the one-time unity of sound and meaning.
Those willing to look "may find, in the consonantal element
in language, vestiges of those forces which brought into being
the external structure of nature, including the body of man;
and, in the original vowel-sounds, the expression of that inner
life of feeling and memory which constitutes his soul."
All this is consistent with the testimony of the ancients that
the primordial Word was responsible for creation.

Still today, the invisible
word is spoken with a physical gesture, even if that gesture
has for the most part contracted into the small organs of speech.
One can at least imagine how the gestures of speech were once
made with the whole body. This was before man had become "detached
from the rest of nature after the solid manner of today, when
the body itself was spoken even while it was speaking."
(Saving the Appearances) "

Bradford comments;

Now I intended to examine once again the Consciousness
Soul. But I must pause here. When Barfield says, "Still
today, the invisible word is spoken with a physical gesture,
even if that gesture has for the most part contracted into the
small organs of speech. One can at least imagine how the gestures
of speech were once made with the whole body. " I get shivers.

Aside from Albert Steffen and the very few
Speech Graduates in the U.S. only Eurythmists understand the
full impact of this statement. To others, most reading these
words, you have no idea how the biological central core of the
throat and the hidden Chakra in the speech organ, first magnifies
itself outwardly to the skeletal model of the human form.

That, dear friends, since you have very little
clue of what the Egyptian Mysteries were about, that the Bull
in the Heavens at the Spring Equinox for Egypt, was a potent
force of the Word centered in the throat, well you must remain
clueless unless you have really examined the depth of history
and observed carefully what the Golden Fleece meant and what
Egypt and the Spring forces of the Bull meant in the Speech and
Word center.

Given that insight, carried by so damn few,
owed to Dr. Steiner, we expand out from the skeletal form and
the shape of man as an absolute mirror of the Zodiac... Head
Aires/the feet Pisces/rib cage Cancer/currently we are in Leo/
the Heart. The Bull is the throat and the twins are the arms..blah,
blah, blah, blah.. to those who imagine they understand Steiner,
HA!

So as Barfield has indicated- Gesture is just
the human form, but zooming out further you get the entire seasons
and constellations which are the model, the actual Imagination
of the little person we carry in our limbs. This massive physics
reduced impression is reduced and enhanced even further in the
Speech capacity. For here we come upon the break down of each
virtue and each force that exists in consonant and vowel structure.
In the Hawaiian language a vowel aspect predominates.. in the
Finnish language the consonants predominate..climate and geography
have great influence.

But nobody, nobody, not Chomsky as a linguist,
not Wittgenstein, not Tolkien as a language researcher, not Nietsche
as a linguist, only, only Dr. Steiner has delved into the potent
physics and specific forces in consonants and vowels to reveal
in a Goethean manner the fact that Consonants are the structural
forces of the Zodiac, and the Vowels the structural forces of
the Planets. The soul of words are in the vowels and the form
of the word, in the consonants. Form and Content, gets kind of
Schillerish doesn't it?

To the dull and unintuitive this seems all
meaningless and away from the dreary point. But to intelligence
and truth, it is enormous. It takes in the tiny little curled
embryo form of the circle of the Zodiac embedded in the womb
and outlined by Poppelbaum to the erect form of the human being
and the Speaking and Thinking human being. It reveals the four
seasons and the four ventricles of the heart. It asks why some
amphibians have three etc heart chambers.. Biology and the numerical
reality of the world as well as thought and the Free Spirit flowing
from heart to heart are just some of the wide ranging and affirming
details of Spiritual Science.

Nevermind...lets just face it. Some souls
are so starved and shrivvelled, so depleted and unable to see
reality when it stares them in the face, that any fiery, Leo
like, raying in of potent insights makes them turn their eyes
away, for fear, like the Wicked Witch of the West... I'm Melting..I'm
melting.. etheric forces of watery nature would melt their dried
and decomposed ASH, that has held them together and been fed
to them as truth in their universities.

Ashes, Ashes they all fall down.

This is such a startling Imagination of just
the Ash part of this essay and the mystery of Water, that we
can only step back and gasp.

If I look to America and Columbine, "Bowling
for Columbine" and I examine what type of ideals and internet
poison the two boys fed upon before they convinced their 16 to
18 year old souls that they would take an action like they did....Well
I have to look at enflamed ideologies that are rabid and feed
off the weaknesses in conceptual thinking, and feed off the lack
of grasp of the mighty greatness that humanity is attempting
to achieve. I have to look at people who promote such rabid ideas...and
as someone once said, wisely, Because Charles Manson listened
to the Beatles, "Helter Skelter", were the Beatles
murderers?

Bradford expands this item;

So we build an edifice based on lies, deceptions
and antisemtism. We brand the Greatest Humanity can be offered
with labels that are riot fuel and torches to the unformed soul
conditions in the 16-18 year old undeveloped minds. We have brittle
teachers who twist sincere arguments and retreat into the "we
have no proof that anything exists" (damn it see "Donnie
Darko"). We cannot stop what is rabidly thrust into the
market place of young minds. It is too late. The Beast that Germany
might have not let out of the box, was let out. It is historical
and we are cohesively holding the I AM together because it was
given to each of us.

We are in the 5th epoch. We are mandatorily
engaged in a real fight for the future of the human soul. To
others this is silly intellectual flipping of conceptual burgers
that obviously don't have to stick to the soul. This attitude
reveals the absolute sickness, the illness that people assume
everyone has. I acknowledge the sickness but searching for a
cure is what the 5th Epoch is all about, see thee to it!

It is unrealistic and against the grain to
destroy or interfere with someone's Freedom of speech. It makes
it all so interesting doesn't it? But we are all so conniving
and manipulative and cruel. Selfishly we choose the most infested
racial lies to haunt and hound Steiner, when it is one of the
only lifeboats around. We know why you want to punch holes in
the lifeboat. It is rage, jealousy and your own inner demon that
you cannot face because of your own contracted, blame filled
upbringing. Well that is the choice that many malicious and unconscious
people make. Pity Judas that he killed his father and slept with
his mother, pity that the soul intent lives in each and every
one of us when we discover we are Dylan and Homeless. But without
our usual cowardice just take a look at the results.

So What is the discussion in the midst of
the Ash of the I AM. People think of it! The Ashes of the I AM..not
only what was left of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...the Ash is everywhere
where dried out thinking replaces the richness of the human heart
and soul. Still in the atmosphere we breath parts per billion
of the Ashes of the I Am, not only from the ovens of Germany
but from the Ash of Hiroshima. Are we this stupid? (sorry Leo
has eaten my passion side) People willfully and subjectively
fail to understand and see the unripened forces of the 16-18
year old heart. Where one willingly contributes to misinterpretation
and historical revisionism one is willing to drop sizzling fuel
on dynamite and then have the audacity to justify it.

"In the wake of the Columbine
High School shootings, it was revealed that Eric Harris had maintained
his own Web site, on which he had posted a graphic barrage of
hate-filled epithets and malicious declarations. (Harris' Web
site provider, AOL, has since taken the site off-line, but a
mirror copy is still available for viewing.) More controversially,
Harris' site also featured a lengthy and detailed tutorial on
how best to create such devices as pipe bombs and napalm. It
was this aspect of the site that created the "Internet as
evildoer" battle cry, igniting a series of admonitions that,
had the Internet not existed, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold and
virtually any other troubled individual would likely have failed
in their brutal intentions, or would never have conceived of
them at all. Time Magazine columnist Daniel Okrent opined in
his May 10, 1999 cover story: " the wonder and the
horror of the Web is not that it takes you out into the world;
on the contrary, it brings the world-in all its glorious, anarchic,
beautiful, hateful variety-into your home."

Here are a small sampling of the sites of
the arising and spirited souls working in the opposite direction
of Columbine.

Dottie please note PIXSJOURNAL. We should
be awed.

Here are refeshed souls, thankful they came
across lifeboats instead of freezing to death in the frigid Atlantic
of the Intellect. Somehow educators managed to share with them
the heart forces that lives as life in the soul and spirit.

But with each great goodness we see how a
marked army of corrupt thinkers still wage war on their own intellectual
soul ASH. The stunning sadness of how we must be adrift in these
shark infested waters, marooned, cast away, is the stamp of the
5th Post Atlantean epoch. We were, as Steiner's true mission
reveals, on the verge of understanding the depth of the I AM
that takes us back all the way to Saturn evolution. But look
ye to the shattered wrecks of how the cosmos as been butchered
and handed to young minds.

"Do this for the least of these",
but scorn the brittle, Ash filiments that created the fortress
of Sauron. The horrible conceptual cohesion that was fashioned
in the Ring - (Wagners and Tolkien's reminder of the Ring as
well as the latest reminder of even more deadly evil in "The
Ring" where true Asuras now step into the realm of the child.)
The heat of the Titans and the Volcanic Ash of the first eyesore
on the pristine landscape of creation, where ancient Titans were
imprisoned in the Earth's core, connects to the very core of
the Earth and the Christ Event.

We keep dragging ourselves back further and
further to placing the blame and infecting the very innocence
of childhood...where the Christ Being lives in the first years
of childhood.. there, if the monsters continue to aim their educational
feeding frenzy, you will have such an Anti-Child, that was depicted
first in "The Bad Seed" and then again, deeper and
more deadly in "The Ring". This is the JonBenet Ramsey
syndrome and connects itself to the egotism still flaring in
parents.

Will those who fear the Christ go so far as
to fully poison the very roots of human spirutality by their
rabid, corrupt and vicious insights? Well friends, that is what
we are here to prevent. That is what every, imperfect Waldorf
School has come to the Aid of. The sanctity of childhood. That
is what Hogwarts and Waldorfffs equate to. That is why you have
a second attempt at Consciousness Soul Picturing that links Wagner
and Tolkien together. Not that anyone understands what this means,
except Danny and Harvey at least, and certainly Christine, Starbirgarden
and Joksu of Finland.

Steiner will not fail because of the very
inspired sites listed above and the very battles fought here
and in the stubborn hearts of denial and fear that constantly
twist and shrivel reality to suit the pain they feel at being
Homeless, at being ourselves Judas, and betrayed by the pivotal
action of the cultural capacities latent in the German people.
The German People refused to take up even what they were most
gifted at, Penetrating the I AM with thought. Thereby we have
been tossed into this nightmare spin that has resurfaced in George
Bush and American Imperialism - a renewed living Orwellian Nightmare.

Instead, the "Will to Power" so
enflamed, ignited and infected the polarity of the seat of the
I Am that we were thrust down into the Aztec nightmare of the
Earth's inner Core. Here in this core of molten Iron and Gold
the raw pivot of the I Am and the Christ Being is balanced on
a knife point of the Ego. This is what facing the 5th Post Atlantean
epoch is about. There is no backing away from this monster it
is out of the bag.

Oh that it weren't so. Oh that we could merely
play endless mind games and wish it all away. Frodo and the Ash
filiment foundations of Sauron's kingdom collapsed, because the
interior etheric forces of the Risen Christ and the failed mixture
of Avarice and Greed with Gold and the Ring, were sent back..and
sent back via the Intellectual Soul. For it is here in this the
Intellectual Soul where this brutal battle continues to rage.

But in the end it was a horrible wrestling
match with the fallen 'double' Gollum. None of us have conquered
this double but we have a singular and focused awareness when
people are oblivious to their own motives. In this, lies all
the danger of the world.

A lot of anthroposophists, particularly
English-speaking ones, appear to be largely unaware of the less
pleasant sides of Steiner's racial doctrines.

What you mean is "the less pleasant sides
of mischievous Steiner-reading and malicious theorizing about
it." It would be awkward for anthroposophists to stop everything
they're doing for the sole purpose of acknowledging distorted
ideas about their worldview.

The spiritual realities that I experience
are not intellectual, they are largely sensual, involving trees
and rivers and skies and bodies and so forth.

' As Clemens of Alexandria said in speaking
of the Greater Mysteries: "Here ends all teachings, one
sees Nature and things." ' - "Trail of the Serpent"
by Inquire Within [Christina Stoddard], Chapter IX: "Rudolf
Steiner and Anthroposophy."

(The entire chapter, which is reminiscent
of WC's Sharon's descriptions of Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy,
will be posted in its entirety in the near future.)

No, I do not think that all anthroposophists
are racists. I don't think that very many of them are racists.
A lot of anthroposophists, particularly English-speaking ones,
appear to be largely unaware of the less pleasant sides of Steiner's
racial doctrines.

Hi Peter,

What works can you point to or rather what
Steiner doctrines are you speaking of? It seems to me that the
ones I read that you have an issue with are the ones that speak
to a cultural evolution. It seems you are calling Dr. Steiner
a racist due to the fact that he speaks on the various cultures
and where he sees them evolving and so forth.

I have to say the more I understand what polemical
writing is the more I am convinced that this is indeed what method
your articles adhere to. They can not be a rounded understanding
of what Dr. Steiner brought because you lock in on isolated phrases
and insist they mean what you say they mean. You throw out the
rest as it is something irrelevant. Dr. Steiners students aren't
trying to justify what you call racist by saying 'hey well look
over here, he's not a racist here', rather they are saying you
are almost interpreting things out of context or at least that
is how I see it.

But why would one waste their time on a polimical
way of writing about a thing when it adds nothing to the truth
and everything to the writers ego that says 'I know against all
logic that can be shown'.

Peter:

The spiritual realities that I experience
are not intellectual, they are largely sensual, involving trees
and rivers and skies and bodies and so forth.

Dottie

What exactly does this mean Peter?

Peter:

I don't stand against god, I simply don't
believe in her/him/it.

Dottie

Do you believe one can be a slave to their
own ego?

Peter:

Yes, I see that. Some of you seem to want
me to just take those inner perceptions at face value and not
challenge them by comparing them to what Steiner wrote and said.
I don't see the sense in that sort of approach to public dialogue.

Dottie

I haven't seen anyone here who asked you to
do such a thing. Not one person. This is not a prosthelyzing
group. (mangled that word sorry:( And the Steiner students are
aware that nobody can tell another to take a perception at face
value, nor do they, from what I can see, take other's inner perceptions
at face value. It goes against all that Dr. Steiner taught.

They are asking you to look deeper into the
topical level you write from.

Peter:

Cool. That's not how I look at Steiner's
work, though. I look at it as a historical phenomenon.

Dottie

That doesn't appear to be the truth of what
you write Peter. It's polemic not history as far as I can tell.
And if you wrote on any other subject I studied in the same manner
I would probably feel the same way. You do not feel objective
in the least. You look objective but you do not feel so when
it gets right down to it.

Peter:

Because I disagree with you that they affect
one another in this way. I think that arguments should be judged
on their merits, not according to any other beliefs held by the
person who happens to put the argument forward.

Dottie

Arguments should be judged on their merits
but it seems you only bring half a story and are unwilling to
ever course correct yourself when shown the opposite to be true.
You are stuck on a one way highway with no exit going nowhere
when you argue in this manner.

Peter:

I really do enjoy talking about politics,
it just isn't why I came here. I came here to talk about Steiner.
I encourage you and everyone else to keep my politics in mind
whenever you read anything I write about Steiner, but I think
it simply makes much more sense to discuss the actual subject
matter rather than focusing on each other's political perspectives.
There are lots of other forums where we can argue about politics.

Dottie

It makes absolutely no sense to me that an
educated and well spoken man of your caliber does not understand
how your personal politics play into this whole mess you got
going on here. I mean really Peter. You know better than this
and I can not believe you would allow others the same leeway
you give yourself.

I really think you should think twice about
this book you are writing. Leave a legacy not a lie.

Sincerely,
Dottie

p.s. I get you disagree but if you want to
find out whether you are speaking on a truth you should think
again and this time read all the other quotes that line up with
the same phrases you have in mind.

What works can you point to or rather what Steiner doctrines
are you speaking of? It seems to me that the ones I read that
you have an issue with are the ones that speak to a cultural
evolution. It seems you are calling Dr. Steiner a racist due
to the fact that he speaks on the various cultures and where
he sees them evolving and so forth.

When Steiner
associates this kind of evolution with particular racial and
ethnic groups, then yes, in my view, his doctrines turn racist
at that point. There is no such thing as higher racial forms.
There is no such thing as decadent peoples. Soul development
and racial development have absolutely nothing to do with one
another. To hold otherwise is to endorse a patently racist belief,
in my estimation.

That doesn't appear to be the truth of
what you write Peter. It's polemic not history as far as I can
tell.

Perhaps you share Daniel's perception that history and polemic
are incompatible. I think this perception is quaint, but mistaken.
Historical debates are frequently polemical.

It makes absolutely no sense to me that an educated and well
spoken man of your caliber does not understand how your personal
politics play into this whole mess you got going on here. I mean
really Peter. You know better than this and I can not believe
you would allow others the same leeway you give yourself.

Yes, I can see that this makes no sense to you. Unfortunately
I don't know how else to explain it. Attending to the ostensible
worldview of your interlocutor rather than to the substance of
the argument they put forward is a logical fallacy. By the way,
I do allow others exactly this sort of leeway. You can see that
several listmates and I disagree about politics and economics,
for example. They think a lot of my political and economic views
are nutty, and I think a lot of their political and economic
views are nutty. To my mind, this has nothing whatsoever to do
with Rudolf Steiner's statements on Jews or on race, thus I do
not bring their view on politics and economics into our exchanges
about anthroposophy's racial and ethnic doctrines. There are
lots of other forums where we can argue about anarchism and so
forth. I think it makes more sense to use this forum to argue
about Steiner.

People willfully and subjectively fail
to understand and see the unripened forces of the 16-18 year
old heart. Where one willingly contributes to misinterpretation
and historical revisionism one is willing to drop sizzling fuel
on dynamite and then have the audacity to justify it.

Bradford comments;

The Patriot Act, Freedom of Speech and non-violence
as well as racism have different facets. Universities always
allow liberal mental aberrations to be instilled into young minds,
who feel the wonderful cunning of Ahrimanic Intelligence in overblown
exaulted pride. Now it Spiritual Science is also looked up as
liberal overblown philosophy. This mingling and mixing of Logos
discernment against Ahrimanic discernment is key to Soul Damage
and further world catastrophe.

The Zundel Deportation as overblown lie or
pasting Steiner with racism, appearing to defend us against racial
views, allows Peter to slide in under the Ahrimanic wires. Materialistic
relativism is Okay people and it is safe to think like Peter
because, partial, hidden motiviated lies are not as bad as Zundel.

Zundel:

"Canadian Security Intelligence
Service accuses Mr. Zündel of being a dangerous preacher
of anti-Semitic, white-supremacist hatred. Even if he doesn't
advocate violence, it reads, he is dangerous because he's seen
as a guru by extremists who do embrace violence.

CSIC describes the white-supremacist
movement as a network of groups with a common racist ideology.
"Many followers are attracted by Zündel's messaging,
his dedication to the cause and his personal charisma,"
according to the summary. "By his comportment as a leader
and ideologue, the service believes Zündel intends serious
violence to be a consequence of his influence."

To Mr. Zündel, this is
guilt by association. How others interpret and apply his writing
is not his business, he says: "I am not the policeman for
the right." He admits to speaking at meetings attended by
"headline-seekers," but he insists that he resents
how their crude tactics marginalize his views.

"The one hallmark that
has always earned me the title of being a coward in our circles
is that I disdained the use of violence," he says. "I
never joined any of these right-wing groups because they were
politically impotent."

The inordinate secrecy of
the security certificate procedure has left Mr. Lindsay ill-equipped
to attack the CSIS allegations. He says he can only guess what
facts, hearsay or falsehoods may pepper the classified government
documents.

"There could be someone
lying through their teeth in evidence that could be attacked
and ripped to pieces. I believe in an adversarial system, where
both sides can challenge the other side's evidence in an open
forum. I don't care whether it is Ernst Zündel or anyone
else; there should be one system of justice that works for everybody,
including the marginalized and those no one else cares about."

Of course, the government
isn't alone in considering the man a threat. "Ernst Zündel
epitomizes and sanctions the worst form of Holocaust denial,"
contends Bernie Farber, a spokesman for the Canadian Jewish Congress."

"The Hitler We Loved
and Why," a book reeking of antisemitism and of hatred towards
people of color"

Well you old wily thong buster...Did I say
thank-you for rightly clearing up, through your daughter, what
was an obvious attempt to distort Steiner?

Thanks! I have a daughter and I know my daughter
like your daughter will deeply take in the melodious "some
shit on the internet says thanks" and the well weighed response,
uh! (shrug) whatever!.

Well this Zundel, and why do I have to blubber
to you, an internet junkie, who Zundel is? Why can't you put
together the links that were offered? Shall I get you some tea
while I'm up, because Diana says that's about all that's up these
days. Soups On!

Zundel I guess we could say is an anti-semite;
You know Frank, like us only different.

"Ernst Zundel will soon join other prominent
neo-Nazis in political obscurity. Whether he is deported to Germany
to face a possible five year prison sentence, as he certainly
should be, is in some sense immaterial. He is finished. He is
through. His goose - to turn a phrase - is gassed.

Three years ago, Zundel fled Canada for Tennessee.
But on 5 February 2003, he was arrested by American INS agents,
deported back to Canada and banned from the US for twenty years.
Never a Canadian citizen, Zundel had lost his landed immigrant
status and so was immediately taken into custody.

An immigration hearing has been convened to
determine whether Zundel's presence in Canada constitutes a danger
to national security.

Things are not going well for Zundel. Two
lawyers have already bailed out on him, and he is left with no
one to defend him but Paul Fromm, who is acting as his "legal
representative."

The state maintains that Zundel is a "leading
distributor of neo-Nazi propaganda," an antisemite, a neo-Nazi,
and a white supremacist. Predictably, Fromm and Zundel are claiming,
somewhat ludicrously, that such terms are nothing but "innuendo
and smear words." Well, Zundel may try to deny the bloody
reality of the Nazi regime, but it is going to be quite a stretch
for him to deny the reality of his own past."

You know Frank, the type of guys we hang out
with on tuesday's when we play strip poker. My take is that to
marginalize the immensity of Spiritual Science into a racist
doctrine and have lots of little pamphlets, with racist and antisemite
supremacy information scattered with RS's named dropped here
and there and punctuated by some professional ideological rapists,
trained ideological serial killers, who appear like they have
reason to brand Waldorf and RS as a racist, will deflate, detour,
deter and prevent potential Waldorf Parents, students, sane and
balanced Goethean seekers, Ben Arrons work, the central core
of the I Am and the intimacy and accuracy of the Christ Event
from ever becoming an actual option or living choice once the
land mines and racist plagues are planted all over the Cult of
AS.

There by, Zundel was non-violent, he is excused;
the opinionated ideological serial killers sent as hit squads
to defame Steiner, never caused any real harm, they claim, because
everything was just ideologies and they of course are not rooted
to any inner moral development. At least not in students and
not in Professors so they can stick nails whereever they want,
because it doesn't hurt, because man has no soul, so what is
the big difference between Serial propaganda rapists and the
insanity of Zundel... not too friggin much!

"The Hitler We Loved
and Why," a book reeking of antisemitism and of hatred towards
people of color"

Bradford Adds;

He also wrote the musical, remember: Come
on Frank, sing it with me.

Germany was having trouble,
what a sad, sad story Needed a new leader to restore its former
glory Where oh where was he? Where could that man be? We looked
around, and then we found, the man for you and me, And now it's
...

Springtime for Hitler and
Germany,
Deutschland is happy and gay.
We're marching to a faster pace,
Look out, here comes the master race.

Springtime for Hitler and
Germany,
Winter for Poland and France.
Springtime for Hitler and Germany,
Come on, Germans, go into your dance ...

I was born in Dusseldorf,
and that is why they call me Rolf. Don't be stupid, be a smarty,
come and join the Nazi party.

Springtime for Hitler and
Germany
(Gun fires twice)
Goose-step's the new step today
(Machine gun fires)
Bombs falling from the skies again,
(Bomb falls and explodes)
Deutschland is on the rise again

Springtime for Hitler and
Germany
U-boats are sailing once more
[woman's voice]: "Well! Talk about bad taste!" Springtime
for Hitler and Germany Means ... that ... soon we'll be going
... We've got to be going ... You know we'll be going to ...
WAR!

If I never thank you for your brilliant mails,
it's because I like them but don't want to join the Bardford-Tarjei
mutual admiration club. So if you don't hear anything from me
in respect to a particulat post, it's because I am thankful (or
I haven't read it). On the other hand, if I really don't agree,
I let you know - nicht wahr? (Please note that I let you get
away with that Skull and Bones bit from a sense of comradeship
- or was it laziness?) Sometimes though, old buddy, I haven't
the foggiest about what you're talking. The Zundel affair is
a case in point. You give us a few lines and point us to some
fruitcake "freedom" site, which seems to be defending
Zundel's civil rights. So what was your point? I asked. Did you
agree with the site that there's some kind of conspiracy against
Zundel? And, I asked myself what it has to do with the accusations
against Steiner. So, if you think I'm busting your thong too
much, the obvious solution would be to make yourself clear in
the first place.

"The Hitler We Loved
and Why," a book reeking of antisemitism and of hatred towards
people of color"

Well you old wily thong buster...Did I
say thank-you for rightly clearing up, through your daughter,
what was an obvious attempt to distort Steiner?

Thanks! I have a daughter and I know my
daughter like your daughter will deeply take in the melodious
"some shit on the internet says thanks" and the well
weighed response, uh! (shrug) whatever!.

Well this Zundel, and why do I have to
blubber to you, an internet junkie, who Zundel is? Why can't
you put together the links that were offered? Shall I get you
some tea while I'm up, because Diana says that's about all that's
up these days. Soups On!

Zundel I guess we could say is an anti-semite;
You know Frank, like us only different.

"Ernst Zundel will soon join other
prominent neo-Nazis in political obscurity. Whether he is deported
to Germany to face a possible five year prison sentence, as he
certainly should be, is in some sense immaterial. He is finished.
He is through. His goose - to turn a phrase - is gassed.

Three years ago, Zundel fled Canada for
Tennessee. But on 5 February 2003, he was arrested by American
INS agents, deported back to Canada and banned from the US for
twenty years. Never a Canadian citizen, Zundel had lost his landed
immigrant status and so was immediately taken into custody.

An immigration hearing has been convened
to determine whether Zundel's presence in Canada constitutes
a danger to national security.

Things are not going well for Zundel. Two
lawyers have already bailed out on him, and he is left with no
one to defend him but Paul Fromm, who is acting as his "legal
representative."

The state maintains that Zundel is a "leading
distributor of neo-Nazi propaganda," an antisemite, a neo-Nazi,
and a white supremacist. Predictably, Fromm and Zundel are claiming,
somewhat ludicrously, that such terms are nothing but "innuendo
and smear words." Well, Zundel may try to deny the bloody
reality of the Nazi regime, but it is going to be quite a stretch
for him to deny the reality of his own past."

You know Frank, the type of guys we hang
out with on tuesday's when we play strip poker. My take is that
to marginalize the immensity of Spiritual Science into a racist
doctrine and have lots of little pamphlets, with racist and antisemite
supremacy information scattered with RS's named dropped here
and there and punctuated by some professional ideological rapists,
trained ideological serial killers, who appear like they have
reason to brand Waldorf and RS as a racist, will deflate, detour,
deter and prevent potential Waldorf Parents, students, sane and
balanced Goethean seekers, Ben Arrons work, the central core
of the I Am and the intimacy and accuracy of the Christ Event
from ever becoming an actual option or living choice once the
land mines and racist plagues are planted all over the Cult of
AS.

There by, Zundel was non-violent, he is
excused; the opinionated ideological serial killers sent as hit
squads to defame Steiner, never caused any real harm, they claim,
because everything was just ideologies and they of course are
not rooted to any inner moral development. At least not in students
and not in Professors so they can stick nails whereever they
want, because it doesn't hurt, because man has no soul, so what
is the big difference between Serial propaganda rapists and the
insanity of Zundel... not too friggin much!

(Please note that I let you get away with
that Skull and Bones bit from a sense of comradeship - or was
it laziness?) Sometimes though, old buddy, I haven't the foggiest
about what you're talking. The Zundel affair is a case in point.
You give us a few lines and point us to some fruitcake "freedom"
site, which seems to be defending Zundel's civil rights. So what
was your point? I asked. Did you agree with the site that there's
some kind of conspiracy against Zundel?

Duh SPEakcurs Meanie!!!!
by OB wan Kinobie

My take is that to marginalize the immensity
of Spiritual Science into a racist doctrine and have lots of
little pamphlets, with racist and antisemite supremacy information
scattered with RS's named dropped here and there and punctuated
by some professional ideological rapists, trained ideological
serial killers, who appear like they have reason to brand Waldorf
and RS as a racist, will deflate, detour, deter and prevent potential
Waldorf Parents, students, sane and balanced Goethean seekers,
Ben Arrons work, the central core of the I Am and the intimacy
and accuracy of the Christ Event from ever becoming an actual
option or living choice once the land mines and racist plagues
are planted all over the Cult of AS.

[There by, Zundel was non-violent,
he is excused;] the opinionated ideological
serial killers sent as hit squads to defame Steiner, never caused
any real harm, they claim, because everything was just ideologies
and they of course are not rooted to any inner moral development.
At least not in students and not in Professors so they can stick
nails whereever they want, because it doesn't hurt, because man
has no soul, so what is the big difference between Serial propaganda
rapists and the insanity of Zundel... not too friggin much!