India has always been a good friend of Afghanistan: Babrak Karmal

Babrak Karmal: 'Pakistan has offered itself as a springboard for the enemies of Afghanistan'

Babrak Karmal, who received India Today's Managing Editor Chhotu Karadia and photographer Jay Ullal at the Khalq Khana, his official residence, for an exclusive interview, has many titles. He is general secretary of the People's Party of Afghanistan, president of the Revolutionary Council and prime minister of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, besides being member of the Presidium and the Central Committee of the party.

Though photographs make him out to be tall and broad chested, a man with a square face and a large nose, Karmal in real life is short, slim - and nervous. His nose has a marked wrinkle, like that of a boxer. Karmal is humble, appearing almost meek. A bachelor at 53, he dresses well in three-piece suits and imported lies.

Karmal is a heavy smoker, sufficiently hooked not to let his socialist convictions interfere with the capitalist origin of his favourite smoke - he prefers tipped American Kent cigarettes. During the meeting lasting nearly two hours, he smoked half a dozen cigarettes, pulling them out from a hidden receptacle under the table. But elsewhere he does draw the ideological line. When requested to conduct the interview on his antique Louis IV sofa with its rich colours and expensive upholstery, he politely declined saying: "Its too bourgeois."

Karmal speaks excellent English but resorts to his native Pharsi when he wants time to think and collect his thoughts. He speaks slowly in a soft voice which occasionally rises with emotion. He does not smile easily and gives the impression of a man whose mind is elsewhere. A long-time Marxist, Karmal tends to speak in the jargon of the communists.

Rather than come directly to the point, he will talk around it a while before answering a question. And at times, the interviewer is left wondering if he has answered anything at all. Karmal makes no secret of his Soviet leanings, and much of what he says could come right out of a Moscow briefing. Afghanistan's new ruler evokes compassion rather than sympathy.

Karmal's political fortunes have fluctuated dramatically over the years. He was a founder member of the Khalq Democratic Party of Afghanistan (Kdpa) which was formed in January 1965. Karmal was very-close to Taraki. In 1966, Karmal orchestrated a split within the Kdpa and broke away with his supporters to form the Parcham wing of the Kdpa.

However, Karmal jell from grace when Hafizullah Amin, his ill-fated predecessor, took over from Taraki in a bloody coup. Karmal was then deputy prime minister, and was eased out by Amin mainly for his pro-Taraki leanings and sent to Czechoslovakia as ambassador. The Soviets, however, played their cards cleverly by wooing Karmal and keeping him on ice till Amin could be replaced. Excerpts from the conversation:

Q. Two months after the Russian troops entered Afghanistan, President Brezhnev declared that Moscow would start pulling out its troops as soon as all forms of outside interference against Afghanistan ceased. What kind of guarantee are you seeking from western countries, Pakistan and China so that Soviet troops can be withdrawn?A. The propagandist machinery of the imperialistic powers has raised a bogey about the Russian forces in the region. What comrade Brezhnev explained is the real policy. I have always proclaimed to the world that the limited contingents of Soviet troops were invited lawfully by the Government of Afghanistan to help us defend our national independence and integrity, and to rebuff the provocation, intervention and aggression from outside forces.

When all the provocation of the reactionary forces from Peking to Washington, from Islamabad to Israel. Egypt, Arab countries and also Britain, the training of bandits and export of mercenaries is completely terminated - that is the actual guarantee we are seeking.

Q. I presume these reactionary forces do not include India?A. India has always been a good friend of Afghanistan, specially now with a very intelligent and progressive leader like Mrs Gandhi. She knows the real facts and will do everything to help our revolution.

Q. One of your recent proposals to reduce tension in this area was to hold a general peace conference and to establish a separate border force on the Afghanistan-Pakistan frontier. What will be the composition of this force?A. The reply is very clear. We never declared that we would allow any foreign power in the name of a peace-keeping force in Afghanistan. This needs no discussion. The desire of our people to determine their own destiny and decide for themselves is clear and decisive.

The limited contingents of Soviet troops were invited lawfully by the Government of Afghanistan to help us defend our national independence
and integrity, and to rebuff the provocation, intervention and
aggression from outside forces.

This is basically an internal problem of our country, but there are enemies of the freedom, liberty and revolution of Afghanistan shamelessly trying to interfere in its affairs. And, to us, any issue in respect of Afghanistan, being decided outside the country, without the consent of the Government and people of Afghanistan is a shameless interference in the internal affairs of our country.

Q. President Zia has refused the offer of aid from the US. He has instead spoken of talks between Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Soviets. Do you see any possibility of these talks being held?A. So long as revolutionary and heroic Afghanistan is concerned, so long as the will of the free and liberal people of Afghanistan and the lawful Government of Afghanistan is concerned, all of us are ready to clear any misunderstanding or solve any other problem that exists, through friendly and peaceful discussions with any country in any part of the world.

But if Pakistan is desirous of peace and security in the region, it should not join hands with the enemies of independence, liberty and leadership of the nation of Afghanistan. It should dismantle all the military bases and camps. In such circumstances and conditions, we can hold talks with Pakistan, in a brotherly, friendly and peaceful manner.

Under the present conditions Pakistan has offered itself as-a spring-board for the enemies of Afghanistan. Everyday it is being supplied with lots of arms and ammunition by way of sea and air and by way of Karakoram from China. Pakistan is sending soldiers to Afghanistan. Patrons of America, Israel, Egypt, Britain, Pakistan and China, and also their soldiers and experts are being sent by Pakistan all over Afghanistan.

They are being financed by US dollars and Pakistani currency. Mercenary troops are setting villages and schools on fire, terrorists are killing women and children, blowing up bridges. Killers and robbers sabotage roads and the passengers who travel by motor. They create terror and honor. If chauvinistic China, ruling circles of Pakistan do not pay attention to the consequences of their adventurous activities against Afghanistan, they will pay the cost alone.Q. What kind of help or cooperation do you expect from India to solve the present crisis? Do you endorse India's stand of a regional approach to keep the superpowers out of the region?A. I don't think that Mrs Gandhi is in agreement with the nature of this question. I don't believe in superpowers. I reject this term of superpower as against the Soviet Union. I recognise USA as an imperialist power and I consider USSR to be a defender of liberation movements in Asia, Africa and America. In general I believe that Russia has always supported peace and freedom in the world.

Q. Turning to domestic issues, what are your achievements so far in establishing a national democratic front. Who are represented in it?A. After December 27, 1979, the Saur Revolution entered a new phase and the first step was the creation of a vast genuine national fatherland front. In the very first meeting of the Revolutionary Council after December 27 three non-party elements, the ministers for agriculture, public health and commerce who had a different ideology, were included in the Cabinet.

In the same way representatives of various old political groups were appointed in high ranks equal to ministers. A good number of intellectuals were also admitted into the Government machinery, social organisations, women associations, democratic youth organisations, labour unions and agriculture groups.

Similarly, representatives from different classes of the country - the affluent class, middle class, artisans, farmers, peasants, national traders - all participated in the political, social and economic life of the country. So did representatives of different nationalities and different tribes, representatives of different religious groups of Islam and even the Hindu minority, they all took active part in developing the national front of the fatherland.

Q. What efforts are now being made to reconcile the two groups, Parchamis and Khalqis, within the party?A. Originally, when it came into existence 15 years ago, it was one party. It consisted of two organs - Khalq and Parcham. These two are central organs of the democratic machinery of Afghanistan. They appear different parties only because of conspiracies and intrigues of the known CIA agent Hafizullah Amin, and certain conflicts that emerged in the democratic party of Afghanistan during the Saur Revolution.

To say that the people of this country have expressed restlessness at the presence of limited troops of Russia on the soil of this country, this is nothing short of false and poisonous propaganda.

But after 6 Jadi (December 27) when the Saur Revolution entered the new phase all the consequences of those subversive activities were removed. Political and ideological unity of the party was restored once again.Q. Under what conditions would you like to begin talks with the rebel leaders outside or inside the country?A. The people of Afghanistan do not recognise (the rebels) who include a number of hired people of the reactionary circles of Pakistan, Chinese chauvinists, imperialist America and Britain, and the reactionaries of Arab countries and the Zionists, who pretend to be the representatives of Afghanistan. The people of Afghanistan regard them as the enemies of the people of the country, national revolution, liberty and democracy of Afghanistan. They describe them as instruments and tools of reaction and imperialism and therefore, the question of holding talks with them does not arise.Q. The people of Afghanistan will be given a new constitution and I am told a team is already working on it. What kind of constitution, is it going to be?A. We shall no longer call it the constitution of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. It will instead be called basic principles of Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The principles will be approved by the Lui Jirgah (Parliament) which will be elected by all the people of Afghanistan in a congenial atmosphere, in a free democratic way, through secret, direct and general ballot.

These principles will be approved and published by the Revolutionary Council on the occasion of the second anniversary of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (April 27). In this the basic principles of the sacred religion of Islam and all the democratic rights and the democratic freedom of the people and the national order and the political, social and economic development of the country will be identified. The rights and duties of citizens of the country will also be specified. The judiciary will be free. However, basic rights will be democratic and progressive and have regard for the welfare and interest of all the people of this country.

Q. Is there any possibility, whatsoever, of initiating talks with exiled Mohd Zahir Shah? Have you asked any member of the royal family to become the member of the Cabinet in order to give your Government a broader base?A. Among the people of Afghanistan there does not exist the smallest base for survival of the monarchy. The bases of the elements loyal to the monarchy and the king have totally vanished from Afghanistan and cannot be restored.

Q. There is growing evidence that a majority of your people are unhappy with the Russian military presence here.....?A. The people of Afghanistan have never exhibited any reaction against the Russian forces in the past; we do not react now and shall not in future. Today we get information from every nook and corner of the country that the noble and real people of Afghanistan are treating the limited number of Russian troops as their guests. To say that the people of this country have expressed restlessness at the presence of these limited troops of Russia on the soil of this country, this is nothing short of false and poisonous propaganda on the part of imperialist, chauvinists and reactionary people of the region.

This restlessness is the creation of hired agents of the foreign power who are trained and equipped in Pakistan. They are exploiting the people in the name of service to Islam. Wherever this type of subversive activities was resorted to, the arms and ammunition from America, China and Pakistan were involved in the massacre of the people.

Q. There are reports of a large number of political prisoners in various jails. Would you care to comment?A. On the basis of general amnesty, after the second stage of the Saur Revolution (last December) more than 15,000 political prisoners were released. The investigations of those who went to prisons are nearing completion. All of them will be punished in a democratic way. The limited number of them that remain are criminals and killers; we do not call them political prisoners.Q. Even now there is a tremendous amount of defection from the army. What sort of army remains?A. The army of Afghanistan has always been a consolidated army and under the command of the Government and the party. It is fully consolidated and willing, and has the potential to defend the freedom of the country.Q. Afghanistan has seen many bloody days since Mohd Zahir Shah. Are you afraid of being killed sooner or later?A. I assure you that the new phase of the Saur Revolution is the result of the will and action of the people of Afghanistan. The Government and the party are with the people. A person who is really serving his people and is loyal to his principles and ideology, loves his duties and is a true revolutionary by way of thinking and faith - for him life and death have no meaning.

Life and death are the law of nature. You who have put this question are not sure about how long you will live and when and how you will die. The question of life and death for a revolutionary who is committed to the party and the Government does not bother him.

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