Not really no. If you're on a very small screen, then this is hte case. However, Win8 support multitasking pretty well, with the ability to show two modern apps simultaneously at any time.

"Pretty well" is obviously subjective. One app is restricted to a 1/3rd of the screen in vertical alignment only. That's pretty damned restrictive, and it shows in how few Metro apps actually work well in this scenario.

Not really no. If you're on a very small screen, then this is hte case. However, Win8 support multitasking pretty well, with the ability to show two modern apps simultaneously at any time.

"Pretty well" is obviously subjective. One app is restricted to a 1/3rd of the screen in vertical alignment only. That's pretty damned restrictive, and it shows in how few Metro apps actually work well in this scenario.

Actually I think only IM apps and maybe a music player do. And even with those, it looks incredibly ugly and a waste of space on a desktop, since both the docked app and the rest of the desktop are now in a weird size which is not functional. There is absolutely no reason to force this on anything other than a tablet.

It's not two at a time. You can run pretty much any number of apps at a time. There is a limit on how many are visible at a time though. This was likely driven by how many people normally full screen apps anyways with the ability to also be viewing one major task and one minor task simultaneously.

Not really no. If you're on a very small screen, then this is hte case. However, Win8 support multitasking pretty well, with the ability to show two modern apps simultaneously at any time.

"Pretty well" is obviously subjective. One app is restricted to a 1/3rd of the screen in vertical alignment only. That's pretty damned restrictive, and it shows in how few Metro apps actually work well in this scenario.

Actually I think only IM apps and maybe a music player do. And even with those, it looks incredibly ugly and a waste of space on a desktop, since both the docked app and the rest of the desktop are now in a weird size which is not functional.

How is the IM app not functional in docked mode? I've only ever used IM clients in a thin+tall configuration. So in docked mode, it's the same as i'm used to. It's also not clear how the desktop is now 'not functional' in that size.

Quote:

There is absolutely no reason to force this on anything other than a tablet.

You're not forced into it. You can still use the entire desktop with all its flexibility if you want. That's the entire point of Win8. It provides a simplified experience for those who want it, but it doesn't limit you if you're a power user who want to use all your old apps in the same old way you liked using it.

So I upgraded my desktop to Win8 Pro, what with the cheap upgrade license expiring soon. I already had it on my server, and on my tablet before I sold it to make room for a Surface Pro or some other Windows 8 Tablet in the future.

Interesting using it regularly with a mouse and keyboard. The full screen Start is a little jarring, but the hot corners don't bother me in the least, as I have one large monitor. So far, so good.

You're not forced into it. You can still use the entire desktop with all its flexibility if you want. That's the entire point of Win8. It provides a simplified experience for those who want it, but it doesn't limit you if you're a power user who want to use all your old apps in the same old way you liked using it.

So there's nothing that requires the Modern UI whatsoever? Every single function in the OS can be controlled/administered without going into the Modern UI, and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention if you prefer to "use all your old apps in the same old way you liked using it." Cool!

Even if that's the case however, I'm afraid that until they improve the multi-monitor support to the point where you don't get the incessant jumping of Modern UI from one monitor to the other I'll leave Win8 in a VM.

and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention

You have a weird definition of 'forced'. Having features in the OS that you can optionally use is in no way forcing you to use anything. For example, if i couldn't run outlook and had to use a Metro/Modern mail client in Win8 then that would be 'forcing'. That i can optionally use the apps is not forcing.

and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention

You have a weird definition of 'forced'. Having features in the OS that you can optionally use is in no way forcing you to use anything. For example, if i couldn't run outlook and had to use a Metro/Modern mail client in Win8 then that would be 'forcing'. That i can optionally use the apps is not forcing.

No, I was referring to playing Skyrim and having hot corners activate when I clicked the mouse. I run many games in full screen windowed mode to avoid task switching issues - I made no mention of Outlook or the Modern mail client (which I also can't use, as I have a POP3 account) so I'm not sure why you've mentioned them.

but beware the hidden metro things which once you fall into are not obvious how to get out of.

Like what? Winkey gets you out of everything.

It's actually just a switcher between the 2 most recent sessions - desktop or Metro. e.g. from the desktop, Win takes you to Start screen and back. If you run a Metro app, it will then switch between Start and the app. So it's still confusing to a lot of people, who will often think it will get them back to the desktop.

It works exactly the same as it did with the start menu in previous versions of Windows. Pressing the windows key opens the start menu / screen. Pressing it again when the start menu / screen is already open closes it.

and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention

You have a weird definition of 'forced'. Having features in the OS that you can optionally use is in no way forcing you to use anything. For example, if i couldn't run outlook and had to use a Metro/Modern mail client in Win8 then that would be 'forcing'. That i can optionally use the apps is not forcing.

No, I was referring to playing Skyrim and having hot corners activate when I clicked the mouse.

If this is happening, it's a bug in the game. A game properly using the Windows full screen APIs will cause those features to not show up.

Quote:

I run many games in full screen windowed mode to avoid task switching issues - I made no mention of Outlook or the Modern mail client (which I also can't use, as I have a POP3 account) so I'm not sure why you've mentioned them.

I brought them up because you showed examples of optional features that you don't have to use counting as 'forced'. Since then you've only updated your complaint with what seems like an bug in a single program. These are very odd definitions of "forced" to me.

and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention

You have a weird definition of 'forced'. Having features in the OS that you can optionally use is in no way forcing you to use anything. For example, if i couldn't run outlook and had to use a Metro/Modern mail client in Win8 then that would be 'forcing'. That i can optionally use the apps is not forcing.

No, I was referring to playing Skyrim and having hot corners activate when I clicked the mouse.

If this is happening, it's a bug in the game. A game properly using the Windows full screen APIs will cause those features to not show up.

Quote:

I run many games in full screen windowed mode to avoid task switching issues - I made no mention of Outlook or the Modern mail client (which I also can't use, as I have a POP3 account) so I'm not sure why you've mentioned them.

I brought them up because you showed examples of optional features that you don't have to use counting as 'forced'. Since then you've only updated your complaint with what seems like an bug in a single program. These are very odd definitions of "forced" to me.

Excuse me, but you seem to be being deliberately obtuse. How are hot-corners that Windows doesn't give you the option to turn off count as anything but 'forced'? That's the "optional feature" I was referring to. Unless you can show me the Windows 8 setting that allows me to turn off hot corners, they aren't an optional feature. To clarify - you keep referring to apps such as Outlook, Win8 Mail etc. I haven't ever mentioned them - I was referring strictly to aspects built into the OS such as hot corners. Please stop trying to change what I'm saying.

You also appear to have ignored my statement that I run these games in full screen windowed mode, which I doubt would use the full screen API's.

Excuse me, but you seem to be being deliberately obtuse. How are hot-corners that Windows doesn't give you the option to turn off count as anything but 'forced'? That's the "optional feature" I was referring to. Unless you can show me the Windows 8 setting that allows me to turn off hot corners, they aren't an optional feature. To clarify - you keep referring to apps such as Outlook, Win8 Mail etc. I haven't ever mentioned them - I was referring strictly to aspects built into the OS such as hot corners. Please stop trying to change what I'm saying.

That isn't what optional means. Optional means that you can chose to use them or not, and seeing as there are no functions exclusive to the hot-corners (well, charms), then I don't think anyone can consider them as anything but optional.

Quote:

You also appear to have ignored my statement that I run these games in full screen windowed mode, which I doubt would use the full screen API's.

Still a broken application; for example Team Fortress 2 (and I bet most Source powered games) in full screen windowed mode disables the hot corners for me.

and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention

You have a weird definition of 'forced'. Having features in the OS that you can optionally use is in no way forcing you to use anything. For example, if i couldn't run outlook and had to use a Metro/Modern mail client in Win8 then that would be 'forcing'. That i can optionally use the apps is not forcing.

No, I was referring to playing Skyrim and having hot corners activate when I clicked the mouse.

If this is happening, it's a bug in the game. A game properly using the Windows full screen APIs will cause those features to not show up.

Quote:

I run many games in full screen windowed mode to avoid task switching issues - I made no mention of Outlook or the Modern mail client (which I also can't use, as I have a POP3 account) so I'm not sure why you've mentioned them.

I brought them up because you showed examples of optional features that you don't have to use counting as 'forced'. Since then you've only updated your complaint with what seems like an bug in a single program. These are very odd definitions of "forced" to me.

Excuse me, but you seem to be being deliberately obtuse. How are hot-corners that Windows doesn't give you the option to turn off count as anything but 'forced'?

Since you don't have to use them, they're not 'forced'. You can use them voluntarily. Hence they're not forced.

Again, since you didn't seem to understand the analogy i was making last time, it's like saying that you're forced to use 'notepad' since it ships in the system by default. If you don't like it just don't use it.

and the hot corners etc can be turned off without requiring third-party intervention

You have a weird definition of 'forced'. Having features in the OS that you can optionally use is in no way forcing you to use anything. For example, if i couldn't run outlook and had to use a Metro/Modern mail client in Win8 then that would be 'forcing'. That i can optionally use the apps is not forcing.

No, I was referring to playing Skyrim and having hot corners activate when I clicked the mouse.

If this is happening, it's a bug in the game. A game properly using the Windows full screen APIs will cause those features to not show up.

Quote:

I run many games in full screen windowed mode to avoid task switching issues - I made no mention of Outlook or the Modern mail client (which I also can't use, as I have a POP3 account) so I'm not sure why you've mentioned them.

I brought them up because you showed examples of optional features that you don't have to use counting as 'forced'. Since then you've only updated your complaint with what seems like an bug in a single program. These are very odd definitions of "forced" to me.

Excuse me, but you seem to be being deliberately obtuse. How are hot-corners that Windows doesn't give you the option to turn off count as anything but 'forced'?

Since you don't have to use them, they're not 'forced'. You can use them voluntarily. Hence they're not forced.

Again, since you didn't seem to understand the analogy i was making last time, it's like saying that you're forced to use 'notepad' since it ships in the system by default. If you don't like it just don't use it.

So I can click in the corners and nothing will happen? Sorry, it's not 'optional' unless I can turn off that functionality, which to my knowledge I can't. If there's a setting to turn off hot corners then I gladly concede the point. Honestly, please show me where that option is in Windows 8 and I'll be very happy, as I have issues in particular when the mouse is near the 'inner' corners of my two-monitor setup.

Edit to hopefully clarify: You're saying that because I have the choice to voluntarily use the hot-corner functionality it's not forced. I'm saying that because the only way to avoid the hot-corner functionality is to avoid putting my mouse cursor into the hot-corner areas (hence restricting my mouse movement) it's forced upon me. I have to actively avoid certain areas of my screen real-estate if I don't want the hot-corner functionality to take effect, which is a restriction on how I use my computer imposed by the new UI. I hope this has made my issue clear so that we're all on the same page.

No. Just like if you click on 'notepad' it will launch notepad. It's an optional part of the system that you can choose to use if you want, or not use if you don't want to.

Quote:

If there's a setting to turn off hot corners then I gladly concede the point.

You can download apps to do this for you. Or you can just edit the registry and change the setting that enables them.

Though i believe these only disable the mouse invocation methods. You can still use the keyboard shortcuts for them. I guess in your head that still counts as something being forced on you.

It absolutely baffles me though. It's like someone complaining that 'alt-tab' is forced on them. Don't like it? Then don't use it.

You're not the only one who's baffled. How difficult is it to understand that you keep telling me that I don't have to use it and that it's optional but I can't click in parts of the screen unless I want to use this functionality. You don't have to use alt-tab and not using it doesn't restrict what you do. Not using hot-corners is only possible by restricting your mouse use. Clearly you're just never going to understand this simple fact - I'm finished with this conversation as you clearly aren't listening to me.

No, I was referring to playing Skyrim and having hot corners activate when I clicked the mouse. I run many games in full screen windowed mode to avoid task switching issues

I still maintain this is a video driver issue. I could not replicate a single issue of hot corners coming over a fullscreen desktop app, fullscreen with no border or otherwise. I've tried both "free cursor" games (League of Legends) and first person "fixed cursor" games (GTA4, Borderlands 2)

Too low or perhaps too high of a security setting you have set-up? I use RDP to remote into my HTPC all the time, and that runs Windows 8 Pro as well. Haven't seen that error pop up before.

That's the thing, though. When this was a Windows7 computer, it connected to the media server just fine. I don't know what's different between RDP settings on the Win8 client, especially since I had updated to the Win8-compatible RDP client on Win7.

Too low or perhaps too high of a security setting you have set-up? I use RDP to remote into my HTPC all the time, and that runs Windows 8 Pro as well. Haven't seen that error pop up before.

That's the thing, though. When this was a Windows7 computer, it connected to the media server just fine. I don't know what's different between RDP settings on the Win8 client, especially since I had updated to the Win8-compatible RDP client on Win7.

Ahh, see I RDP from my Win8 Pro desktop to my Win8 Pro HTPC. Are there any bugs on the Microsoft forums regarding remoting in from Win7 to Win8? - Misread. Sorry I'm not being of much help, but the only thing I can think of is some kind of bug/setting change between Windows 7 and Windows 8 remote settings. Perhaps if you go digging around in the Remote settings on your server there might be something you have to change.

The thing that really bugs me is removing features for no reason. e.g. 'Advanced' in the personalize menu. What possible reason could they have to remove this? This is just some PM's idea of making the product easier to use by 'removing' features.

Same goes for the castrated functionality in Windows backup now. No more full image backups, no choosing files outside your library. I know there's still a image backup hidden under 'Windows 7 file recovery', but who's going to find that? It's like Microsoft thinks the Reset/Restore which only works with Metro apps is enough for everyone, and legacy apps are to be deprecated.

No. Just like if you click on 'notepad' it will launch notepad. It's an optional part of the system that you can choose to use if you want, or not use if you don't want to.

Quote:

If there's a setting to turn off hot corners then I gladly concede the point.

You can download apps to do this for you. Or you can just edit the registry and change the setting that enables them.

Though i believe these only disable the mouse invocation methods. You can still use the keyboard shortcuts for them. I guess in your head that still counts as something being forced on you.

It absolutely baffles me though. It's like someone complaining that 'alt-tab' is forced on them. Don't like it? Then don't use it.

You're not the only one who's baffled. How difficult is it to understand that you keep telling me that I don't have to use it and that it's optional but I can't click in parts of the screen unless I want to use this functionality.

The presence or absence of bugs in skyrim doesn't change whether something is optional for you to use or not.

I agree that it's unfortunate that a bug in skyrim is producing a poor experience for you. But that's a *different matter*. It does not relate to whether or not this feature is optional or not.

No. Just like if you click on 'notepad' it will launch notepad. It's an optional part of the system that you can choose to use if you want, or not use if you don't want to.

Quote:

If there's a setting to turn off hot corners then I gladly concede the point.

You can download apps to do this for you. Or you can just edit the registry and change the setting that enables them.

Though i believe these only disable the mouse invocation methods. You can still use the keyboard shortcuts for them. I guess in your head that still counts as something being forced on you.

It absolutely baffles me though. It's like someone complaining that 'alt-tab' is forced on them. Don't like it? Then don't use it.

You're not the only one who's baffled. How difficult is it to understand that you keep telling me that I don't have to use it and that it's optional but I can't click in parts of the screen unless I want to use this functionality.

The presence or absence of bugs in skyrim doesn't change whether something is optional for you to use or not.

I agree that it's unfortunate that a bug in skyrim is producing a poor experience for you. But that's a *different matter*. It does not relate to whether or not this feature is optional or not.

I didn't say you always had to fix it. But if users expect backward compatibility, you definitely are accountable for it, whether through a patch or through a compatibility shim or whatever. If users expect backward compatibility and you can't provide it, that's your fault too for setting expectations wrongly. If Bardon here expected Skyrim to work and it didn't, Microsoft's accountable here for either

(a) breaking Skyrim, or(b) making Bardon believe Skyrim would work in Windows 8 when it doesn't.

For one, Skyrim does work in Windows 8. It's far more accurate to say that your position equates to "all apps must be bug-free on an upgrade to a new operating system they were not originally targeted for". That's insane, and there's no way Microsoft can remotely be held accountable for that.

The only place that can be held to any extent is the App Store, and the App Store has compatibility lists, so incompatible apps won't show up for OSs it won't run on.

Whether it works on Windows 8 or not is up to the users to decide. If Bardon has decided Skyrim doesn't work on Windows 8, for him or her it doesn't (assuming good faith here of course). Users, being on the receiving end of the massive information asymmetry that exists because they have no idea whether their apps will keep working after an upgrade, have that privilege.

Quote:

It's far more accurate to say that your position equates to "all apps must be bug-free on an upgrade to a new operating system they were not originally targeted for". That's insane, and there's no way Microsoft can remotely be held accountable for that.

No, my position is that you are accountable for meeting your users' expectations. If a user expects a bug-free upgrade, and it isn't, it's your fault for making them expect a bug-free upgrade.

I didn't say you always had to fix it. But if users expect backward compatibility, you definitely are accountable for it, whether through a patch or through a compatibility shim or whatever. If users expect backward compatibility and you can't provide it, that's your fault too for setting expectations wrongly. If Bardon here expected Skyrim to work and it didn't, Microsoft's accountable here for either

(a) breaking Skyrim, or(b) making Bardon believe Skyrim would work in Windows 8 when it doesn't.

Take your pick.

If this is your argument there isn't a single OS in history that isn't broken.

Now... whose expectations are going to be met, and whose fault is that?

If my Steam copy of Indiana Jones works fine in Windows 7 but stops working in Windows 8 I'm certainly going to blame Microsoft for it.

That doesn't make it Microsoft's fault, though.

Some developers put hard blocks in their apps or web sites simply because they couldn't have known in 2011 or whatever how future versions of Windows are going to work, and they feel it's better to have a hard block than have users with a bad experience. If the app shows a window saying this, then you wouldn't still blame Microsoft, are you?

Same goes for the castrated functionality in Windows backup now. No more full image backups, no choosing files outside your library. I know there's still a image backup hidden under 'Windows 7 file recovery', but who's going to find that?

Well, er, you found it.

Quote:

It's like Microsoft thinks the Reset/Restore which only works with Metro apps is enough for everyone, and legacy apps are to be deprecated.

As far as I can tell Microsoft thinks the Backup app in W7 lay fallow and people didn't backup any of their stuff:

Regretfully, backup is not a very popular application. Our telemetry shows that less than 5% of consumer PCs use Windows Backup and even adding up all the third party tools in use, it is clear nowhere near half of consumer PCs are backed up. This leaves user’s personal data and digital memories quite vulnerable as any accident can lead to data loss. In Windows 8 Microsoft is actively trying to accomplish the following:

1.Make data protection so easy that any Windows user can turn it on and feel confident that their personal files are protected. 2.Eliminate the complexity of setting up and using backup. 3.Turn backup into an automatic, silent service that does the hard work of protecting user files in the background without any user interaction. 4.Offer a very simple, engaging restore experience that makes finding, previewing and restoring versions of personal files much easier.

So they built a simpler just-your-stuff (as fundamentally who gives a shit about apps? You can always reinstall those) backup app that gets promoted by the UI and left the advanced old-skool backup tool in the OS if you needed it.

Speaking of refresh/reset, I found out about the recimg command line tool. This allows you to set a custom image for Refresh, meaning you can set a point in time you think your machine is good and use that as the refresh point. Meaning, you can set a refresh point with all your desktop apps still installed.

So they built a simpler just-your-stuff (as fundamentally who gives a shit about apps? You can always reinstall those) backup app that gets promoted by the UI and left the advanced old-skool backup tool in the OS if you needed it.

Never mind apps. The stupid thing doesn't even back up all of your data by default. The new backup tool is not fit for purpose. It's utterly inadequate.

And while I agree that yes, apps can be reinstalled, I think there is some value in having a one click disaster recovery to put the system exactly as you need it for it to be useful. In times gone by, when backup space was precious, I think reinstalling apps was more reasonable. But now that a 3 TB MyBook can be had for a few notes, nobody has any excuse for anything other than full system image backups.

Never mind apps. The stupid thing doesn't even back up all of your data by default. The new backup tool is not fit for purpose. It's utterly inadequate.

Windows built-in backup tools have become less and less adequate with each version since their dumped NTbackup.

I find it infuriating the fact that they justify removing all the sensible backup option version after version on the pretense that most users didn't use them. In short, responsible users (or users helped by not too incompetent techs and friends) are punished because they where smarter than the unwashed mass.

Quote:

And while I agree that yes, apps can be reinstalled, I think there is some value in having a one click disaster recovery to put the system exactly as you need it for it to be useful. In times gone by, when backup space was precious, I think reinstalling apps was more reasonable. But now that a 3 TB MyBook can be had for a few notes, nobody has any excuse for anything other than full system image backups.

Amen to that!

There is two things that Windows never did properly and, for reasons that and I'm completely unable to understand, MS never seem to put anyone competent on formulating solutions: backups and multi language support(*). Years after years, they add complex solution that are so badly designed they never fit anything but the simplest of the real-world scenario - and even then, usually badly.

(*) nearly 20 years after windows 95, the windows installer, IE and pretty much every part of the OS completely ignore anything you put in the language selection but will use what you've selected as "local formats" to select what language it will use if it has a choice.

File History is definitely going for discoverability and unobtrusiveness over completeness, and if you're in the business of needing single-click disaster recovery as opposed to "oh shit I shouldn't have deleted those photos" you'd prolly be better off going with the existing backup tool.

File History is definitely going for discoverability and unobtrusiveness over completeness, and if you're in the business of needing single-click disaster recovery as opposed to "oh shit I shouldn't have deleted those photos" you'd prolly be better off going with the existing backup tool.

Big large files have the fastest transfer rates as opposed to thousands of little files. And nearly every modern external drive comes with either USB 3.0, Thunderbolt or even eSATA. All of which work just fine.