Well, then, let me see if I can explain it. I don't profess to be able to articulate ideas particularly well, but I'll try.

There's a lot of judgement of performers going on in this thread, mostly of women, directed against them for the crime of doing what they want to do (or may feel pressured to do) with their own bodies.

These performers presumably feel themselves to be in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" position. On the one hand, they're in an industry that places enormous pressure on them to stay young and beautiful forever; it's well-known how roles for actresses dry up after they hit "a certain age." On the other, they're supposed to remain natural-looking, "untainted," "pure," for the benefit of you guys. I don't suppose it's easy to deal with, and it's likely something that every aging actress has to grapple with for herself.

You yourself, in your initial post, said you "had the ultimate respect for her ... Then I see a recent interview with her and she's done the same stoopid things to her face that all the twinks who stay in Hollywood do... I really thought she was smarter than this... Sure, it's her face, but I don't want to look at it," suggesting that your respect for her hinges not upon what moral choices she makes as a person, how she treats others, etc., but merely upon how she looks, and what personal choices she makes that affect how she looks. There's also an air of "how dare she do what she wants to the face and body I wanted to look at"; it comes off as incredibly entitled and possessive.

This whole thread strikes me as needlessly judgemental and misogynistic - not just your post, mind you, but lots or most of the others as well; I merely made a point of responding to yours because you started the thread.

This whole thread strikes me as needlessly judgemental and misogynistic - not just your post, mind you, but lots or most of the others as well; I merely made a point of responding to yours because you started the thread.

I would argue that the judgment and misogyny exists among those factions of our society that would pressure a woman to do something like that to her face to begin with. That's where your misogyny is coming from. This whole plastic surgery trend is only reinforcing and perpetuating cultural stereotypes and societal expectations of gender roles.

As to you charging me of misogyny, I might have titled this thread "Michael Jackson Messed Up His Face," but I did not, because we all watched him very publicly mess up his face over a number of years, and we all know this already. The shock of seeing Kim Novak resulted in part from her many, many decades outside of the limelight; and her caving to a very Hollywood-esque pressure in light of her reclusiveness made it that much more shocking.

Anyone - male or female - has the right to do stupid things to their bodies if it makes them happy. And I, as a viewer and consumer, have every right to turn the other way, turn off the TV, or not buy a movie ticket if I'm repulsed. "Classy" or not has nothing to do with it.

This whole thread strikes me as needlessly judgemental and misogynistic - not just your post, mind you, but lots or most of the others as well; I merely made a point of responding to yours because you started the thread.

I would argue that the judgment and misogyny exists among those factions of our society that would pressure a beautiful woman to do something like that to her face to begin with. That's where your misogyny is coming from.

Oh, I agree. I just don't fault those performers for making the decisions they do.

As to you charging me of misogyny, I might have titled this thread "Michael Jackson Messed Up His Face," but I did not, because we all watched him very publicly mess up his face over a number of years, and we all know this already. The shock of seeing Kim NovaK resulted in part from her many, many decades outside of the limelight; and her caving to a very Hollywood-esque pressure in light of her reclusiveness made it that much more shocking.

Anyone - male or female - has the right to do stupid things to their bodies if it makes them happy. And I, as a viewer and consumer, have every right to turn the other way, turn off the TV, or not buy a movie ticket if I'm repulsed. "Classy" or not has nothing to do with it.

So I stand by by this thread.

Misogyny is only a part of it, of course, but it's a substantial part. It didn't escape my notice that some men were also chided here for their apparent use of cosmetic surgery. However, women took the brunt of it, which I do suspect reflects both the vastly greater societal pressures upon women to look a certain way (and thus to elect to undergo such procedures in the first place), as well as a more judgemental treatment of them for doing so, both in society in general and at this board in particular (and, likely, a greater makeup of men at this board). But I'm not generally a fan of picking on anyone for their looks, male or female, regardless of how whether they specifically did something to make themselves look that way or not. I'm not a fan of these plastic surgeries, either, but I don't feel a need to publicly cluck my tongue at those who choose them, or hold them in contempt for it.

Your right to turn away from something or someone on TV for any reason whatsoever is not in dispute. I said "classy" because I thought it was a shame you elected to turn away from her, despite an apparent interest in her and her sharing something another poster stated to be "wonderful and poignant," simply because you "could not get past" her face (!), and went out of your way to make a point of saying so. I understand, I really do - I've also seen entertainers who IMO disfigured themselves with surgeries, and I wasn't crazy about it either - but I still think it's unfortunate that when deciding whether to watch her interview, you gave greater weight to how she looks over than the substance of what she was saying.

But point taken. I posted with full awareness that by posting my own opinion I was opening it to criticism from others, just as I was criticizing them, and I'm really not out to make enemies at the board. And if I was going to post at all I probably should have done so in a less sarcastic way than just posting "classy" and an eye-rolling smiley. My apologies.

I think it's wrong to make fun of someones natural appearance or appearance after injury of some sort. But when a public figure doe's weird things to their faces and bodies intentionally it is open to criticism. Doesn't make them less of a person or less talented, but how one presents themselves physically is part of the business.

Kim is nearly 80 and she's no longer in show-biz. Give her a break. At her age if the plastic surgery made her happy then that's fine. Classic movie fans should feel privileged that she was willing to come back to Hollywood and give us her perspective on her career, no matter how she looked. Personally, I saw the beauty inside.

They are all free to do as they want, of course. But I sure wish they would spend all that dough on someone who can help them with the fundamental image issues where it starts... in their heads. To seek a surgical solution for a self-perception problem is just so damn sad.

I was just looking up some other plastic surgery disasters and saw that guy that made himself look like a cat. I didn't even WANT to put a pic up here. What the deuce is wrong with some people? I mean, I know that body decoration has been around as long as mankind itself... but come on!

Misogyny is only a part of it, of course, but it's a substantial part. It didn't escape my notice that some men were also chided here for their apparent use of cosmetic surgery. However, women took the brunt of it, which I do suspect reflects both the vastly greater societal pressures upon women to look a certain way (and thus to elect to undergo such procedures in the first place), as well as a more judgemental treatment of them for doing so, both in society in general and at this board in particular (and, likely, a greater makeup of men at this board). But I'm not generally a fan of picking on anyone for their looks, male or female, regardless of how whether they specifically did something to make themselves look that way or not. I'm not a fan of these plastic surgeries, either, but I don't feel a need to publicly cluck my tongue at those who choose them, or hold them in contempt for it.

Your right to turn away from something or someone on TV for any reason whatsoever is not in dispute. I said "classy" because I thought it was a shame you elected to turn away from her, despite an apparent interest in her and her sharing something another poster stated to be "wonderful and poignant," simply because you "could not get past" her face (!), and went out of your way to make a point of saying so. I understand, I really do - I've also seen entertainers who IMO disfigured themselves with surgeries, and I wasn't crazy about it either - but I still think it's unfortunate that when deciding whether to watch her interview, you gave greater weight to how she looks over than the substance of what she was saying.

But point taken. I posted with full awareness that by posting my own opinion I was opening it to criticism from others, just as I was criticizing them, and I'm really not out to make enemies at the board. And if I was going to post at all I probably should have done so in a less sarcastic way than just posting "classy" and an eye-rolling smiley. My apologies.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, and, upon reflection, I can see how my tone and title of the thread could come off differently than intended. Likewise, points well taken. I will revise the thread title.

I understand the plastic surgery obsession comes from corporate and social pressures. If the results of plastic surgery actually worked I might be more understanding of the process. But it usually doesn't. I never liked the obsession with defacing the human body in any form to begin with.

I ask not to challenge but out of curiosity: is it that it usually doesn't, or is it that it usually does but the very visible minority of cases that don't are the ones that get spread around the magazines and the internet?

Octoberman: It's their face, so let 'em do with it as they please! Let's see your face, which you've never bothered to post here for our pleasure (or displeasure)! The ball's in your court!

Of course they may do with their bodies as they wish. That does not preclude discussion on it's merits and results. No different than one would comment on hair style, clothing, tattoos, etc. How you present yourself is a statement. Good or bad. What if someone surgically attached a horn to their head? Or implant cat eyes? It will happen sooner or later. Are we not allowed to have an opinion?