Men Can’t Be Friends With (Attractive) Women: The Science

Four years ago, this esteemed blog laid out in detail the reasons why men can’t be friends with bangable women, and under which conditions male-female friendships could plausibly form and endure.

Men and women simply cannot be friends unless certain conditions are met.

Mutual lack of attraction

This is easy. When there’s no loin burning to get in the way a girl buddy is like a guy buddy, except you can dump on her about your dating troubles and give your opinion of in-season colors without getting laughed at.

[…]

One way attraction, girl to guy

Girls find it easier to keep their sex drives in check, which is why they can retain their sanity while remaining friends with uninterested guys they are attracted to far longer than the reverse scenario. Men who are attracted to their girl buddies cannot stay friends for long without either making a sloppy move and killing the friendship or sacrificing their last ounce of dignity as they go insane from blue balls toxic shock.

[…]

One way attraction, player to girl

There is only one way a single man can be friends with a woman he wants to bang and that’s when his balls are so drained from fucking other women that he feels no testicular pressure to act on his desire. You’ll notice that a typical sexually satisfied alpha has lots of hot girl acquaintances he doesn’t bother gaming because the effort required is not worth the very small marginal increase in pleasure or risk of losing the girls as social proof and as friends.

[…]

The man is married or in a relationship

If you’re looking to be a cool friend to hot chicks without falling victim to the temptation to hit on them, you can acquire this noble virtue on the cheap by shackling your vice within the artificial prison of marriage or exclusive relationships. (Note: The opposite doesn’t work — most men will sleep with a hot married woman given the chance and in spite of the risk.) This is the foolproof method for betas to be relaxed and emotionally stable friends with attractive girls they’d love to bang. They simply tell themselves that they already have a girl waiting for them at home who they love very much or, if they don’t love her, who would be really pissed if they cheated on her, and so the pressure is off. They can therefore rationalize their asexual acquiescence to LJBFdom as a pose of moral rectitude.

[…]

She’s on the internet and you can’t see her in person

Pretty simple trick to be platonic with a chick when she’s a flick on your monitor and a thousand miles away.

As per usual, the Chateau was more right than it knew, and ahead of its time. Recently, a scientific study has confirmed just about every observationally sound assertion put forth in that seminal post.

[T]he possibility remains that this apparently platonic coexistence is merely a façade, an elaborate dance covering up countless sexual impulses bubbling just beneath the surface.

New research suggests that there may be some truth to this possibility—that we may think we’re capable of being “just friends” with members of the opposite sex, but the opportunity (or perceived opportunity) for “romance” is often lurking just around the corner, waiting to pounce at the most inopportune moment. […]

The results suggest large gender differences in how men and women experience opposite-sex friendships. Men were much more attracted to their female friends than vice versa. Men were also more likely than women to think that their opposite-sex friends were attracted to them—a clearly misguided belief. In fact, men’s estimates of how attractive they were to their female friends had virtually nothing to do with how these women actually felt, and almost everything to do with how the men themselves felt—basically, males assumed that any romantic attraction they experienced was mutual, and were blind to the actual level of romantic interest felt by their female friends. Women, too, were blind to the mindset of their opposite-sex friends; because females generally were not attracted to their male friends, they assumed that this lack of attraction was mutual. As a result, men consistently overestimated the level of attraction felt by their female friends and women consistently underestimated the level of attraction felt by their male friends. […]

These results suggest that men, relative to women, have a particularly hard time being “just friends.” What makes these results particularly interesting is that they were found within particular friendships (remember, each participant was only asked about the specific, platonic, friend with whom they entered the lab). This is not just a bit of confirmation for stereotypes about sex-hungry males and naïve females; it is direct proof that two people can experience the exact same relationship in radically different ways. Men seem to see myriad opportunities for romance in their supposedly platonic opposite-sex friendships. The women in these friendships, however, seem to have a completely different orientation—one that is actually platonic.

Science ♥s Heartiste. It feels good being so right so often, but honestly a high “being right to being wrong” ratio isn’t that difficult to achieve as long as you are open to seeing reality for what it is, rather than what you wish it to be. The study’s money quote:

Taken together, these studies suggest that men and women have vastly different views of what it means to be “just friends”—and that these differing views have the potential to lead to trouble. Although women seem to be genuine in their belief that opposite-sex friendships are platonic, men seem unable to turn off their desire for something more. And even though both genders agree overall that attraction between platonic friends is more negative than positive, males are less likely than females to hold this view.

If you were to read nothing in life except this blog, you would be better equipped to successfully navigate the obstacles life throws at you than a feminist or manboob who has read 10,000 cathedral-certified gender studies textbooks at $100 a pop.

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I’ve experienced this myself. It’s always intensely uncomfortable, because I’m usually aware of when my male friend’s interest segues into the sexual, and once it’s there, there’s no going back to the way the friendship was before. I honestly don’t know why women are clueless about this. It’s always struck me as a self-evident truth.

I do think a lot of younger women don’t really realize what’s going on, so the manipulation is less intentional and more accidental. But I can see something like what you’re saying happening too. Awful.

It’s true. And men should beware of some girl they’re “dating” who have lots of guy friends. Even worse if she “only” has guy friends.

It means she’s a massive attention whore/drama queen/slut, so much so even the saddest women won’t befriend her. Daddy issues.

Beware, you younger men; this type tends to thrive in junior high through college, then dies out early 20s as guys wise up and she loses her looks to the extent her “guy friends” don’t won’t to put up with her bullshit.

This type of girl often courts “wallflower” guys, since they’re easy beta orbiters who won’t push for sex or exclusivity to stay around. She might do a drunken make out or blowjob to seal the deal, then never do it again. But rest assured she’s putting out for any guy she thinks she’ll lose and values.

Actually it’s not a bad sign if she has a lot of guy friends at least if she’s pretty. Most chicks are boring and catty back stabbers so it’s hard to have lots of them as friends. Don’t stereotype chicks by looks. There are plenty of ugly chicks with lots of girlfriends who are everyone thing you listed and more. Just get to know people as individuals.

it’s not a bad sign if she has a lot of guy friends
—Oh man. Red pill needed here!

Chicks with lots of straight guy friends and few to none gfs are drama queens and manipulative whores.

Chicks with straight guy friends but more gfs just have beta orbiters.

There are extreme outliers, of course. I have written about my outlier female friend before: truly bisexual, airline pilot, runs triathlons, man jawed but attractive, bitches about how women are insane and incompetent and how feminazism is bullshit, reads Ayn Rand, and is hypersexual.

This was one line of reasoning, amongst others, that helped to clue me in that past female ‘friends’ of mine weren’t really friends at all.

I mean, if you’re in difficulty your male friends will help you out using their individual skillsets, often without being asked. Like your pal who’ll help fix your ride, or help you move house, or post bail (or help hide the body, lol).

But, if you mention to your female ‘friend’ that a lack of affection in your life is getting you down, will she throw you so much as a pity handjob? Like hell she will. And, as has been pointed out, it’s not like sexual favours are even a big deal to most of these sluts, since they give it away to random strangers all the goddamn time.

That your female ‘friend’ would never consider doing you such a small kindness tells you all you need to know about how much she really cares about your wellbeing.

How a male beta-orbiter ‘friend’ is seen by a female: a disposable utility, an appliance. Not really fully human. To be used and discarded at her convenience.

You seem to be under some assumption that there was a ‘before’. As a guy, I can assure you we noticed a Woman’s physical attractiveness and judge her value (shallow as it may be, it is instinctual) way before we ever consider being ‘friends’ or a ‘friendship’ type situation develops. There was never a ‘before’. There was only levels of comfort and familiarity.

this esteemed blog laid out in detail the reasons why men can’t be friends with bangable women, and under which conditions male-female friendships could plausibly form and endure

The interesting thing, at least to me, is that so many people are in denial about this; an e-mail I wrote to an (actual) female friend morphed into a post called “The beta orbiter problem: Observations from the field.” I basically repeat this idea: “Although women seem to be genuine in their belief that opposite-sex friendships are platonic” but in different words.

The key to having female friends is to in way or the another avoid sleeping with them for a while so you get to experience all the attraction killing traits of them. My roommate and one of two female friends (as opposed to my gaggle of female acquaintances) is a 9, but totally undateable. I met her way back in school six years ago when she was dating my friend so I got the full experience then.

Having at least one super hot female friend is good for game because it makes you realize how nuts the pretty ones are. Eases any anxiety when talking to other girls knowing they are just as nuts. Plus you can use her for wing duties.

I once had one like this. In the beginning I was attracted to her, and it endured through my acquisition of an even hotter girfriend (who was OK with it, since the differential was such that she didn’t consider my female friend a threat), and through my friend’s sequence of relationships with total assholes.

It eventually did peter out when she gained a huge amount of weight and I moved away. Oh well.

I think your assertion that chicks are better than men at controlling their sexuality is wrong. You once referenced a study that showed that men’s brains short circuit when talking to hot chicks. I doubt women experience that.

On a related note, if we assume that men get flustered when talking to hot chicks, we can assume that women do the inverse: they get more emotive and emotionally receptive when talking to hot men. Feminism is in there too- women try to act cool and collected and have girl game aka sex in the city – in other words, try to control their natural impulse.

TL:DR: women don’t control their sexuality, they just don’t get phased. They actually get wet and ready and happy and excited for action right there.

Actually, heartiste’s assertion was that men are better at controlling their sexuality than women are because they’re more used to being forced to control it. He had an article about it awhile ago.

In girl terms, ‘hot’ means ‘interesting for whatever reason in the world’, not necessarily physically hot. Jack Nicholson the really old guy actor is ‘hot’, the average in-shape 20 year old grocery store clerk kid isn’t. Girls do get equally flustered when talking to ‘hot’ guys when the level of ‘hotness’ exceeds their acquired skill in playing men.

I have seen studies, and can provide anecdotal evidence, that kissing a woman is the best way to shut her up, turn her mood around, and turn her on. When I need to get my woman under control, I go for the suffocating bear hug and the kiss.

The flip side to this is don’t expect women to be able to talk when you’re kissing them. We simply cannot do both things at the same time. Women’s brains are such that their hemispheres link more (so if one is shut down, the whole things goes “off duty”) wheras a man’s brain has emotion, thought, and maybe even action compartmentalized. I wish I could find the excerpt from the Gray book where I read this because I found it fascinating and really informative, but I can’t locate it..

In a neutral conversation, women can be in total control even if the man is more handsome than usual. But if the man starts flirting and pushing the right buttons, women will lose it more intensely than a guy who is looking at the naked body of a 10.

This is news? I mean, all you guys out there, did you ever have a very attractive female “friend” that you didn’t have sexual thoughts about, even if you tried to fight them? If so, you have more self-control than me.

When you referred that article on Twitter, this post from a few years ago is exactly what I thought about. I’ve told many a friends before that future generations will list you as one of the greats. You’re the Freud or Carl Jung of this generation.

Nah. One of my best friends is a hot woman. She is married, as am I. We used to work together, and we became great chums. We talk on the phone sometimes, or meet for coffee, just to catch up. I have no interest in banging her, because it would ruin the friendship. A young man probably wouldn’t understand this.

I probably sound really stupid. Sorry. I just realized that I can survive without your friendship. Sorry for being so annoying! You don’t have to be my best friend, I’m happy with just reading your blog regularly! :)

There are no rules for alphas who’s balls are drained and have abundance mentality. When you talk to more hot girls than you have time to fuck, you friend-zone them and get the benefit of hooking up with their social circles.

Most men would bang a hot married woman if given the chance? Maybe if she was married to an asshole or something but damn what kind of dirt bags do you hang out with? No pussy is worth the kind of fallout that bs would cause.

If you were to read nothing in life except this blog, you would be better equipped to successfully navigate the obstacles life throws at you than a feminist or manboob who has read 10,000 cathedral-certified gender studies textbooks at $100 a pop.

I really wish I hadn’t read that.
I have a lot of male friends.
Now I have to look at them and wonder if a) They are secretly harboring an attraction to me, and I am in essence torturing these people whom I genuinely like but do not want sexually; or b) They think I am fugly.
Anybody have any hamster pellets? Because mine’s going to be pulling an all-nighter, I think.

Not necessarily. My sister in law is objectively hot (8/9) and does NOTHING for me. Which is good, b/c that’s one less thing to have to stress. She and I get on great, not the vaguest interest in porking her. I would think that being attracted to every single chick who was cute/hot would be a gamma thing.

She doesn’t do anything to you because you have subdued you sexual attraction to her, since she is your brother’s wife (or your wife’s sister), and that’s the only right thing to do. You’re not stupid, you have eyes, you can tell she is pretty, but you won’t go to places you shouldn’t. Once you allow yourself to think about her in a sexual way, disaster is around the corner, so you are definitely exercising self-control. A guy that can’t control inappropriate sexual attractions is no Alpha.

Usually, I’d agree with you, bro. But I knew her before they got hitched. She’s world-class cute, but doesn’t do anything for me. (I also have pretty high standard, I guess – didn’t give a single 9 or 10 in CH’s 1-10 test).

I like how being an “Alpha” has turned into the ‘no true scotsman’ logical fallacy. You know, when observing wolf packs, the Alpha is obvious. There are no ambiguous qualities left to interpretation. He either is, or he isn’t. I mean, you are either an alpha, or not. In fact, it could probably be determined scientifically through genetics and what not. ‘A guy that can’t control inappropriate sexual attractions is no alpha’? sounds like you are making up criteria for ‘Alpha’ that seems that most personally appealing to your sensibilities. Alphas are alphas, whether they ‘control their sexual attractions’ or not. Or are we going to admit that this ‘alpha’ thing is non-scientific and merely a way to define your self-image (and that of others) in the way that is the most appealing and comfortable for you?

Good catch! Your average person will, if they are lucky, have maybe a handful of (non-family) friends – meaning REAL friends – in their lifetime. Generally, you’re better off with dogs. And as for Rappaccinella’s hamster: The gay guys may be your friends (catty, potentially backstabbing friends, just like your girl friends). The 6’5 Antonio Banderas look-alike whom all your female acquaintances want so bad they can taste it may be your friend. He gets so much action already, he probably barely sees you as a female. The rest of ’em are Beta/Delta/Gamma/Omega orbiters who want you, and live under the extremely common delusion of ‘Friends First’, one of the biggest lies ever perpetrated upon the dating scene.

excellent distinction. Real meaningful comradery between male is female is impossible if there’s sexual attraction. Being social acquantainces who are attracted but don’t fuck and serve each others mutual benefit are entirely possible, and happens often.

aka the dichotomy of “if you’re not fucking, you’re her girlfriend” is false. an cool guy can socially befriend a girl without being her emotional tampon and retain his attractive qualities if he’s fucking other girls.

Hanging out and watching MMA, streaming movies and giving them the MST3K treatment, hunting together, shooting together, asking each other for advice…maybe they’re not “brothers from another mother,” but they aren’t mere acquaintances.

If you want privacy, post a comment on my site using your real email address, and I will send you my address that way. No one need know….

2. Manjaws aren’t one step above cigstache physically. The manjaw is a bad look, but it doesn’t mean you can’t be good-looking. Kristen Stewart has a manjaw, and she looks strung out and stupid, but her face over all is cutish. Youth helps, but the upper part of her skull is girlish.

It would be fun to have one day where everybody posts their picture on their gravatar. Its nice to see who one is talking to. I imagine your looks are fine, Rapp. But, isn’t your father supposed to be snaring you an Adam for your garden? “Giovanni!” :)

I will never, ever post a real picture. I used to get paid to screen potential applicants by basically stalking them on the internet, and feeding everything – profiles, comments, photos, everything – into a hiring matrix. People would wonder why they didn’t get called back, and it was because they were holding booze in 90% of their FB photos, or going on race-related Twitter rants, etc. It really taught me the value of (relative) anonymity!

I wonder if Cameron Diaz would be considered a ‘manjaw’. She does nothing for me – could easily be friendzoned – but lots of guys think she’s HAWT. To me, she l;ooks good in some pics, like a horse in others. No offense to all real horses, you guys are fine.

If you were to read nothing in life except this blog, you would be better equipped to successfully navigate the obstacles life throws at you than a feminist or manboob who has read 10,000 cathedral-certified gender studies textbooks at $100 a pop.

“I think a lot of women might prefer a regime of serial monogamy rather than serial hookups, but that doesn’t seem to be emerging so much,” said Paula England, a sociologist at New York University who said she has conducted online surveys with more than 14,000 women at 21 colleges and universities. “There’s this much murkier thing that’s taking place. You can tell that they are trying to figure out how they stand with these guys. They are struggling with the ambiguity of the situation.”

Read that last line again. I call bullshit. They are NOT struggling with “the ambiguity of the situation” but rather the females of the situation are struggling to do the honest self-assessment. The hamster has no limits to the depths it will go for a good old fashioned dose of delusion.

Certainly, some of them may very well be your friends. But if you’re hot, they still want to bang you. They might not actually do it, but they still think about it. No relationship between a hot girl and a straight guy can be devoid of sexual content, at least on his side. Trust us on this one.

I think the worst part about this is how now, women and men actually have to be taught this.

Once, mothers and grandmothers and aunts and just concerned ladies tutored girls to avoid men who “just wanted friendship”, lest she ruin her reputation and or be seduced. Women formed civic organizations, and men formed male organizations, to keep casual relationships from developing and confusing everyone. Women with lots of male “friends” were seen as sluts or crazy. Social acceptance dictated women stayed with women friends—which women preferred.

Men who befriend all but the most outlier of women are pussies. Either go for the gold or drop her. Listening to her inane chatter and bitching is about the worst thing in the world when there’s no sex payoff. Get some guy friends and walk away.

When I was about 12 I remember mentioning my friend Corey was coming over to study with me. My ex-Marine drill sergeant grandfather was visiting and said, “Who the hell is Corey?” I said, “Oh, he’s just a guy friend from school.” He said, “What the hell is a ‘guy friend’? I’ve never heard of anything so stupid! That boy is either gay, or he’s trying to do something.”

I wish he was around now in case I have a daughter. She will need the same real talk.

“It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers-out of unorthodoxy.” – George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

It’s actually really easy to be friends with a hot girl after you’ve banged her a half-dozen times and gotten sick of her shit. If you haven’t slept with her though, the tension is always lingering beneath the surface and makes a true friendship impossible (except for the reasons mentioned above.)

“My best friend and his father where in a car accident 5 years ago (we were both 16). His dad was declared dead at the scene and he ended up in a coma for 12 weeks. I spent a lot of time at the hospital and his house and as a result, his mom. A couple of weeks after the accident she just broke down completely as she was driving me home from the hospital. She told me she couldn’t be alone that night and begged me to stay with her for a couple of hours. We went back to the house and she poured me a glass of wine. I lost my virginity to her. While my friends life was hanging in the balance, his dad just buried, I was fucking his mom. I had always had a thing for her, I mean, she was my friends hot mom, so I obliged every time she instigated which was a lot. This stopped immediately after he was released from hospital and we avoid each other now. “

I am a female with a very close male friend. He texts me multiple times a day (usually starts first thing when he wakes up in the morning) and calls me at least once a day. He tells me he misses me if we dont see each other for a couple of days. We often play fight, tickle each other, watch movies together in bed etc. He also gets very protective and hates other guys hitting on me. And he has joked that we should get married. However I don’t think he is interested in me sexually. Or if he is he wont make a move. We’re both attractive, although I am slightly older (we are both in our 20’s). So.. Is it because I’m older? Does he think I’m fugly? Is he gay (a distinct possibility)? Or is he just beta in personality even though he is extremely good looking? He hasn’t dated a girl or slept with anyone in months. Thanks in advance for your input, love this blog.

So to recap:
– texts you multiple times a day
– misses you if you don’t see him for a few days
– play fight
– tickle each other
– watch movies together IN BED
– joked that you should get married
– VERY PROTECTIVE AND HATES OTHER GUYS HITTING ON YOU

Seriously? Look, men don’t get protective and jealous of something unless we either want it for ourselves or it’s already ours and needs to be defended from other men. That point alone is enough to tell that he wants to sleep with you.

Either he’s to chicken to actually make a move on you or he already has and you’re oblivious to it.

I have subtly shown interest (initiate touching etc). Frustrated why he hasn’t made a move because I really want him to. He has a lot of female friends though. Is it possible he’s just a girls’ guy and sees most girls as LJBF? Understand that’s contradictory to this post but I’m just confused. I’ve thrown alcohol into the mix, the most I get is hugs.

A biologically healthy man in his 20’s who play fights, tickles, touches is going to be hiding a raging erection soon. If that’s not happening with your buddy’s little buddy, then he’s either gay or has some form of neuropathy. Diabetes, medication, lots of things can do this.

Like I said down-thread, opportunity costs. This guy is your male cock-blocker.

Funny, I have called him my cockblocker plenty of times.
I decided to test the waters while drunk the other night, and got into bed with him. He spooned me for a minute then patted my arm and told me to get into my own bed and get some sleep. I think the gay theory could be right. Many of our mutual friends think he is gay (he denies it though).
And yes, I get what you’re saying about opportunity costs.. we’re so close he fills the spot of boyfriend in my life, which is tying me up from meeting a potential actual boyfriend. We act like a couple without the sex. Argh. I just need to find a balance obviously, because I’m not willing to give up our friendship, he means too much to me.

“The great power center of 2008 is the Cathedral. The Cathedral has two parts: the accredited universities and the established press. The universities formulate public policy. The press guides public opinion. In other words, the universities make decisions, for which the press manufactures consent. It’s as simple as a punch in the mouth.

The Cathedral operates as the brain of a broader power structure, the Polygon or Apparat – the permanent civil service. The Apparat is the civil service proper (all nonmilitary officials whose positions are immune to partisan politics, also known as “democracy”), plus all those formally outside government whose goal is to influence or implement public policy – ie, NGOs. (There’s a reason NGOs have to remind themselves that they’re ‘non-governmental.’)”

Most social opportunities for young single people are through mixed-sex social networks. In these networks, it’s as beneficial to have female friends as male ones. If she’s willing to put in a good word for you to her friends, even better. This kind of female friend can be very valuable. I don’t think a man-woman friendship can truly be as close as a man-man friendship, but a woman’s perspective and/or social connections can be worth the friendship effort.

1 li’l rub: The chances that the guy will get anything even resembling honest and useful advice from any female ‘friends’ are practically nil. The chances his female ‘friend’ will blabber about any and all of his flaws, shortcomings or ‘faults’ (as perceived by her) to her female friends: 100%.

I dunno, lately I’ve been suspecting some men friends in wanting to bang me, and had to warn them before they moved too close, which resulted in them saying “Nah, I wasn’t gonna do that”. I’m paranoid? Or they took the warning as a chance to save face?

When you call them on this, they have two options. If they tell you the truth, they have no more chance with you since you’ll likely avoid interacting with them from that point on. If they go with “I wasn’t gonna do that”, they still have options as you’ll still talk to them.

Men cannot be friends with women: If they are hot, he wants to bang them; if not he wants to avoid them. Unattractive women are, at best, just honourary blokes, who will sooner or later become upset that they are ‘insulted as a woman’ by reason of a man’s lack of interest.

She is indeed an asset. She gives me an whole different prespective on most things that complements my worldview. And yes, she’s hot. She’s a seven, always clubbing and what not. I like her. I would very much like to fuck her but it’s not a priority. She’s not the kind of girl I want. So… we’ve been rather good friends, surprisingly, really.

I’ve told her that I would like to fuck her, she sometimes teases me but we’re friends and just friends although I’ve already exposed the idea of “No! Don’t pursue that guy, let’s be fuck buddies you and me!”…

I’d like to be her fuck budy but I really, really don’t care because, to me, she is not a keeper, so… who cares? I see her as a girl first, my friend second and a hot girl I’d like to pork third.

I appreciate the tension that exists between us and lament that 90% of the times the tension is just on me. But the always present tension also teaches me how to behave around chiks I wanna pork.

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