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Maybe I'm hijacking, but I don't think so because it seems like Win wanted to get some healthy debate going here (which I enjoy).

I don't view ADAP as an entitlement program, because everyone is not entitled to it. You have to qualify for it, i.e. it is needs based. This is how I would prefer our tax dollars be used -- I have good insurance, so the government shouldn't have to foot my bill. Of course, this argument goes out the window the day that the US gets Universal Health Care funded by the government -- maybe my grandchildren will see that, but I doubt that I will.

Again (back on the thread) -- volunteering is NOT volunteering if its compulsory. I don't think anyone should be required to "pay back" for this assistance. I think volunteering would be an excellent idea for people who receive ADAP, as well as for those of us who don't. I, myself, am guilty of doing more "donating" than "volunteering". This thread has got me thinking about why this is -- and how I should go about changing it.

Mike

Oh yeah one more thing -- re: the Ninth Amendment"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

We may retain rights not enumerated, but that doesn't obligate the government to pay for them.

Again, not saying what is right or wrong -- just adding to the debate.

Mike

Mike, would you argue that free primary and secondary education is not a right? It is, and that does, in fact, obligate the government to pay for it.

The government is obligated to provide for the common defense, provide for the general welfare and all that stuff laid out in the intro to its founding document. One could say that about the military... if the American government treated the defense of its borders with the same casual indifference that they treat the health of their citizens... it would be akin to saying, "Pick up a rock and hurl it at the Canadians coming into Duluth. You're on your own, citizens."

Citizenship is a birthright, we all know that, and as citizens there are certain things that we can and should fully expect of the government... one is that the Canadians won't be invading Duluth anytime soon because being safe and secure is in fact a right... and that obligates the government to pay to ensure that security as best they can.

So I say, yes... healthcare is a right, and yes, this obligates the government to pay for it. Because right now, I'm seein' what our neighbors in the north have... and I'm thinking about hanging a "Welcome Canadians" sign up if they ever do invade.

aupointillimite, I don't think socialized medicine would ever go over in the US. We are so used to being able to call and get right in to see a doctor. Doctor wants you to have a MRI, you make an appointment and get right in. We don't have to wait months. We have Canadians that come to Ohio to see doctors and get testing so that they don't have to wait months to have it done. We are a very fast past country and we are demand oriented. Social medicine would never work here.

aupointillimite, I don't think socialized medicine would ever go over in the US. We are so used to being able to call and get right in to see a doctor. Doctor wants you to have a MRI, you make an appointment and get right in. We don't have to wait months. We have Canadians that come to Ohio to see doctors and get testing so that they don't have to wait months to have it done. We are a very fast past country and we are demand oriented. Social medicine would never work here.

And Europe and Canada aren't the First World? They're not fast-paced societies?

But, personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag. And I think a lot of uninsured people would be willing to wait as well.

aupointillimite, A day was life or death in my situation. Canada's population is apx. 32,816,136 ours is 300 million big difference.

You're right... but are Canadians dying of AIDS in hospitals up there? I really do think if countries with universal health care had such broken systems, and I think if ours was so superior in comparison, they'd be clamoring to switch over to what we have. But they're not.

And your point about population is extremely well made. But then have each state set up their own social medicine programs... like how it's done with highways... federal government gives out the money, the states use it to repair and build highways (some better than others). And if we could span a third of North America with an interstate highway system that helps hundreds of millions of people move about each day... I don't think these problems are insurmountable.

The system is already in place to cover every man woman and child. 87 million Americans are covered under Medicare/Medicaid and try telling Grandma and Grandpa they are living the socialist dream. Even private insurance restricts access to care and coverage.

Would any one of my Canadian brothers like to exchange health coverage. I will trade you my car plus my ADAP for your system...any takers?

In order to create a functional universal healthcare system we are going to have to make some sacrafices. I'm no scientist, but I highly doubt the cure for cancer or Aids lies on Mars. I think we start with putting that one on the backburner.

Geeze, I hate to sound unpatriotic, but somehow I don't see how setting up schools and everything for Iraq is going to secure our "freedom."

The system is already in place to cover every man woman and child. 87 million Americans are covered under Medicare/Medicaid and try telling Grandma and Grandpa they are living the socialist dream. Even private insurance restricts access to care and coverage.

Would any one of my Canadian brothers like to exchange health coverage. I will trade you my car plus my ADAP for your system...any takers?

This explains why my grandparents never go to bed each night before singing a rousing chorus of The Internationale.

And your point about population is extremely well made. But then have each state set up their own social medicine programs...

aupointillimite, we do, MEDICAID and it's far from a perfect system. It is better than nothing. Medicaid in Ohio pays doctors 60% of what they could make with patients that have insurance. How many doctors, do you think we would have using socialized medicine? Hell they could get a 9-5 job that would pay more. I have a friend that is a well known Cardiologist that clears over a million a year after malpractice insurance and taxes. You think a person like him would like socialized medicine? He doesn't mind Medicaid patients, because what he loses, he uses for a tax write off. It just wouldn't work here. You're never turned away from getting emergency services now if you can't pay, that is by using county hospitals. The services rendered are the same. It is just faster, compaired to socialized medicine. It would be nice if everyone could get the care that they needed. I have to bypass 5 hospitals to get the advanced medical treatment that I need. I drive 67 miles or go by ambulance, but the local hospitals aren't equipped. If they were to start to work on socialized medicine here it would be years before it could be implemented. We wouldn't see it in effect in our life time.

Recent studies have shown that Americans pay more for less health care (when outcomes are considered). The health numbers for the US are not as good as those in Europe, though our system costs more overall. Why? Well, we have to pay the profits of the health care insurance industry, as well as the cost of the medical care itself.

Health care rationing? Access to care problems? The inability to see any doctor you want? Having to see Gatekeepers to get into the system? All these bugaboos are put forth by those opposed to universal care in order to scare people away from the idea. But guess what? Depending on the insurance plan you are on, you have any and all of them RIGHT NOW. And if you are unfortunate enough to not have insurance, then you have no access to care AT AL, unless your pockets are very deep.

Oh, and while we may have 10 times the population of Canada, we have around 15 times the number of doctors.

I have good insurance. I pay dearly for it. Given the slightest chance, my insurance company would drop me like a hot rock, and I would be left to pay for my care out of pocket. And pay. And pay. Until all my money is gone. Then I can only hope that ADAP and Ryan White programs are still around to help me out. If they're not, well, I guess I'll just have to die.

To those opposed to what they like to call 'socialized' medicine. Stand by your principles. Give up your employer-subsidized health plans. Give up your Medicaid, your ADAP, and your Ryan White money. Pay out of pocket, like any good capitalist should. Then talk to me about denying to all what you already enjoy.

All you have to do is look at what share of GDP we spend on health care versus other industrialized countries. Then compare key health markers like life span and infant mortality. We're extremely inefficient. Why? Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states. That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus. A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.

I consider myself a hearty and well travelled internationalist, and never once in my many voyages or my year living overseas did I come across a single individual who desired a private national healthcare system for their country. It would be like charging people to breathe the air.

All you have to do is look at what share of GDP we spend on health care versus other industrialized countries. Then compare key health markers like life span and infant mortality. We're extremely inefficient. Why? Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states. That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus. A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.

I consider myself a hearty and well travelled internationalist, and never once in my many voyages or my year living overseas did I come across a single individual who desired a private national healthcare system for their country. It would be like charging people to breathe the air.

Exactly... why do we not have private competition for public utilities? Because electricity and water are needs... not goods one can do without And market pricing needs usually means that you end up with skyrocketing costs.

Well, now we have Bush proposing tax deductions for health care costs. I'm hoping that doesn't pass even though my family would benefit in the short term right now.

I think we need massive restructuring to make this work.

This going too the excessive education level to become a doctor. I think it's ludicrious that our school system is set up in such a dysfunctional way. It should never take 7 years to become a doctor. I don't care if my doctor has been educated on the fundamentals of various theologies and useless knowledge.

" The health care system in Canada is a universal system, (some items are not covered) while often called a SOCIALIZED public system it is in fact merely publically funded, most all services are provided by private enterprises, and doctors are not on a government salary, but operate like hardware stores as CAPITALISTIC entities."

Don't google pros and cons of socialized medicine, you would not believe the information out there. I didn't know that the Providence's of Canada were allotted so much health care money and when it's gone, it's gone and they have to wait till the next year to get non life threatening surgeries and illnesses taken care of. Now do you really think that would go over in the US?

My sister in law is from Canada. She married my brother and moved to Washington. Her sister lived in Canada. They both had an abnormal pap smear. Both had ovarian cancer. Her sister died waiting to get all the tests before they could start any kind of treatment. Cindy lived because she didn't have to wait 6 months for a MRI.My brother died last month, and because of 9/11, she would have had to have been married to my brother for 5 years before she is granted full citizenship. He died at the beginning of their 4th year of marriage. She will cobra the insurance as long as she can afford to, travel from Canada to the US for her health care. I can not say her sister would not of died if she was in the US, but it seems as if she would of had at least a fighting chance. Universal Health Care is not the answer, I am not sure what the answer is, but dying while waiting is not an answer to me.Cono

Dash, I went to the hospital and I didn't have to pay a dime and that was before I was issued medicaid. All county hospitals receive federal funds to help pay for people that can not pay. My bill was 52Gs and I was never charged not even a precentage. I'm talking county supported hospitals not private.

If you are in the business, you will see that Aetna, Us HealthCare and Cigna "MANDATE" their employees take a HSA or a CDHP. No choice. For people like me and you, that means drug costs and co-pays that are far out of most of our financial means.

Sh*t, I make a mean six figures, but if I had to pay for the cost - my meds add up to almost $100K a year, I would be broke. Yes I am on a very special diet of drugs. Without, I will croak.

The US can spend billions in Iraq. After the long haul, will the US make this damn planet a better place???...Sorry. I am just pissed off at the whole damn issue!

Sorry , if I got odd thread or topic. I am just a pissed off bitch tonight.

It is nice whan there is a assistance, but it is most assuredly not a right.

Jeff

Hmm, Healthcare seems to be a right for inmates, even on death row! So, I shall bring up my absurd arguement again. If I go out and rob a 7 Eleven and end up in prison, then I won't have to ever worry about my HIV meds or even food.

Why are prisoners who commit violent crimes allowed access to health care? Why do they have that right?

Hmm, Healthcare seems to be a right for inmates, even on death row! So, I shall bring up my absurd arguement again. If I go out and rob a 7 Eleven and end up in prison, then I won't have to ever worry about my HIV meds or even food.

Why are prisoners who commit violent crimes allowed access to health care? Why do they have that right?[/quote

Bush is proposing making employer-provided health care benefits (ie Insurance) above a certain threshold count as taxable income. Then use the funds from that to allow those who purchase private insurance plans to deduct the cost of those plans, up to a certain amount.

This opens the door for employers to stop, or at the very least drastically reduce, the degree to which they subsidize their employees health care. A bad thing for the employees, to be sure, but probably good for the system overall, since people will start to see just how much health care actually costs, and hopefully, once their eyes have been opened, they will demand changes to the system as it currently stands. Our current system can't continue as it is, for soon it will come crashing down under its own weight. It is already showing signs of breaking.

As for the doctors and their compensation. Well, doom and gloom was forecast when Medicare came up with the idea of DRGs many years ago, the same was done when managed care appeared. Guess what? Doctors learned how to continue to make money with changes in the system. In fact, most of them make more. Though as a group they despise the paperwork that they must now endure to do so. I am sure they will thrive under a universal healthcare system.

We are all responsible for each and every part of our individual lives. If you can't pay, why should we force the rest of the population to bail us out?

Personal responsibility is a good thing, living off other people is not...

In a perfect world, there would be no illnesses....but since this world is not perfect and people need money to pay for things, I highly doubt that Drs are going to give their services away for free.

But we all live off of each other. Do you have the same problem with free education up to high school? Should parents educate their children themselves... or pay for private schools in lieu of having the option of sending them to public school?

We depend upon dozens of different people in insanely diverse ways (some visible, some not) in our everyday lives, and it's absolutely impossible for one to to be 100% responsible for all human needs.

No one is suggesting that doctors work for free... just that the government put a universal insurance program in that would pay for all citizens' health care. Which we would pay for... through taxes.

But we all live off of each other. Do you have the same problem with free education up to high school? Should parents educate their children themselves... or pay for private schools in lieu of having the option of sending them to public school?

We depend upon dozens of different people in insanely diverse ways (some visible, some not) in our everyday lives, and it's absolutely impossible for one to to be 100% responsible for all human needs.

No one is suggesting that doctors work for free... just that the government put a universal insurance program in that would pay for all citizens' health care. Which we would pay for... through taxes.

aupointillimite, that is one of the big problems that we have now, we're taxed to death. I've only been out of work two years, of that I have payed taxes since I was sixteen. I pay school taxes and I don't have children. I pay house and property taxes, I pay fuel and sales taxes. I believe we are taxed to death. We are even taxed on money that has already been taxed. How much more money do you want us to be taxed?

aupointillimite, that is one of the big problems that we have now, we're taxed to death. I've only been out of work two years, of that I have payed taxes since I was sixteen. I pay school taxes and I don't have children. I pay house and property taxes, I pay fuel and sales taxes. I believe we are taxed to death. We are even taxed on money that has already been taxed. How much more money do you want us to be taxed?

No more... but maybe it's a question of how the government chooses to spend its money.

How much does each cruise missle cost? How much money do we give to Israel? How much money did it cost to land on the moon?

Aerodynamic golf balls notwithstanding... I think we could spend a bit more on domestic programs.

I pay property taxes, lots and lots of property tax. I don't use the public school systems, nor will I ever. I didn't use them growing up, for I was privately schooled. I could therefore argue that if someone chooses to have a child, they should see to their educations out of their own pockets, and stop reaching into mine. I don't, though, because I think a government subsidized education system is important to our society.

I also pay for my own health care (lots and lots of that, too, unfortunately). But I think that, like education, universal access to health care is important.

Oh, and by the way, some people can't buy insurance, because insurance companies won't sell it to them.