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Sorry Rob, that sounds like a witch hunt.If you have concerns about images promoted that fo not meet your standards, may I politely endorse the concept of judge training for all staff.Several threads have been written and many comments bandied about on this topic.However, seems that occasionally someone is always upset with a few of the images that make the queue.We are all human and therefore subject to our own preferences- however a set of guidelines for image selection is now of critical importance here.I understand that some of my earlier suggestions have been integrated into a draft document supporting this concept.I urge you as an experienced and leading imager to contribute your thoughts to said document for the benefit of all here.we can then have a robust discussion about standards of images that should/should not be promoted.I look forward to seeing your contribution and welcome your valuable input.

I do wonder if we we mightn’t be able to introduce a bit more transparency, though. In my view, we should do away with ‘private’ forums - by which I mean those forums for IOTD staff. We are able to discuss training/guidelines for IOTD staff out in the open. The threads I see on the private ‘staff’ forum to which I have access consist primarily of people who are (as Andy says) getting ‘upset’ about a few of the images that make the review queue or are chosen as Top Picks. I fail to see what purpose such threads serve, and I find them unedifying. Taste is subjective.

If we exposed such threads to the full glare of the sun, I think it would be much more healthy.

Nope, not really a witch hunt, at least in my intentions.Just asking this for beeing sure we aren't getting back to the dark ages of IOTD-by-pop I've a couple of examples in my mind (and they will continue in my mind, I won't reveal them) that carried me to this idea.Cheers

Irronically, if tensions weren't so high over the IOTD process, I wouldn't disagree with this sort of transparency. However, I also believe there is potential for witch hunts. If memory serves me right, someone in the IOTD staff publicly called out another member over their choice a few months ago, so we might already have a real case of what happens. I also remember when it was publicly known who picked an IOTD (before the current system). There must have been a good reason why it stopped happening, but there was no forum at the time for anyone to publicly post their disagreement.

I think we as a group are responsible if an image of poor quality makes it to IOTD. I've seen a few instances of photos in the judge's queue being unselected because someone else checked the image and pointed out a flaw. I never saw it happening at the lower levels in my time there, but I can't speak for this year's group of submitters and reviewers.

If you'd like to see if the IOTD process changes, you could always read through the history of changes in the website's source code through the link provided in the page footer. I understand not everyone can read code, but the website is largely written in Python so it's fairly easy to understand with a little bit of practice and reading the description with each change as guidance!

BTW I'm not talking specifically about the IOTD selection, but rather on the TP…

Again, I don't see any witch hunt if we reveal which submitters/reviewers have promoted an image. Why should it be it ?Moreover, we as community can help them on their choices once a mean image has been promoted.

But who gets to decide who needs help on the choices? Is it those who are the most vocal? Are the denouncers always correct? Oftentimes, I will take a peek at the images that have been vilified - only to find that the picture, as far as I am concerned, is just fine.

At least two folks need to think an image is ‘worthy’ before it gets a Top Pick and at least three before it can become IOTD. How great a tragedy is it if an image with some ‘issues’ gets TP or IOTD? No one dies, and the world will keep turning. Indeed, there will be a fresh set of TPs and IOTDs along tomorrow.

My suggestions: switch to decaf; pick up a newspaper and get exorcised about some of the stuff in that.

DuczmalSomeone calls for more transparency in the TP selection process, and the witch hunt card appears from nowhere.

I don't think that card was pulled from nowhere though. I've seen strong thoughts directed at the whole group over TP/IOTD choices. Sometimes they have fair points, sometimes they don't, but I believe allowing someone to pin names to a particular choice, even if it really was a bad one, would only make the situation worse.

Regarding the private forums, I think they are necessary to make sure we can check each other's choices without publicly trashing someone's photo, so making them public would be a mistake in my opinion.

In fact, I think a good addition to the reviewer stage would be to allow them to see each other's choices so they can privately question each other like judges can. That process has stopped a couple IOTDs going through and reaffirmed the acquisition details of at least one over the past few months. If reviewers could do the same (and delay publicly awarding TPs to avoid it being taken away after the fact), I think it could solve some issues people have with Top Picks.

I also notice that everyone that has replied to the OP is currently involved in the process in some way, so if you're reading this and are not part of the TP/IOTD staff then please say something!

Just found this discussion. I think it will be good for the judges/reviewers/submitters to see each other's choices, so they can be honest to each other. However, I do not support the idea of revealing such information publicly. If a problematic image is picked as an IOTD by a judge, there will be a several-day period for the judges to spot the potential issues, discuss among each other, and probably reverse the decision. Once the IOTD is revealed to the public and becomes final, the group of judges should take the responsibility together. It won't be healthy to isolate any single judge and make him/her face all the blames.

(Should we create such a few-day (or one-day) buffer for top picks? Perhaps. There are probably pros and cons.)

I support private forums for the judges/submitters/reviewers, especially the for judges. There can be issues for them to discuss before an IOTD decision becomes final. In the decision-making process, they should have the freedom of discussing it just among them, so they won't have to make decisions under external pressure.

On the other hand, if the judges are not discussing about particular images and photographers, instead, they are discussing about general guidelines of image selection, I think it will be good to engage the community. This way, older judges who had completed their services can also provide insights, and community members who are potentially future judges can also learn from the processes.

Now I can tell 2 things for sure: 1) I am not a great astrophotographer - 2) I've made better pictures than the one I have mentioned above

So I started wondering: "why I don't get top picks anymore?".. "is it the gear I use?"… "is it me, am I a poor photographer?" Then I realized that actually I was poisoning one the best things that happened in my life which is AP and I decided not to care anymore and just enjoy the beautiful community of Astrobin.That's it… I just wanted to express my opinion since the thread topic gave me the chance.

Exactly Alessandro. I agree with you and that is why I was wondering if it was possible at least to put in clear the selections. If you see people touching MW with images that are far from beeing astrophotography going TP, I wonder why your M33 is not.

Andrea AlessandrelliIt amazes me how, after 6 years or more, the IOTD / TP selection process is still debated in this way. It's a broken process that satisfies a few and dissatisfies many.I am member since 6 years, I published 155 images and the only TP I got is a crappy picture of the Moon here: https://www.astrobin.com/296077/?image_list_page=2&nc=&nce=/ (sorry Moon you are beautiful, the picture is crappy) .

Now I can tell 2 things for sure: 1) I am not a great astrophotographer - 2) I've made better pictures than the one I have mentioned above

So I started wondering: "why I don't get top picks anymore?".. "is it the gear I use?"… "is it me, am I a poor photographer?" Then I realized that actually I was poisoning one the best things that happened in my life which is AP and I decided not to care anymore and just enjoy the beautiful community of Astrobin.That's it… I just wanted to express my opinion since the thread topic gave me the chance.

Clear skies,

Andrea Alessandrelli

I mostly agree, Andrea. AP is a challenging (sometimes frustrating), but ultimately rewarding hobby which, like any hobby, is supposed to be fun. In my view, the only important ’judge’ of an image should be the photographer themself. The TP/IOTD awards should just be a bit of harmless fun. I think that for most users it is just that. I don’t think the process ‘satisfies a few and dissatisfies many’. Rather, if one looks at the number of users of the site, those who grumble about the process are in a tiny (albeit vocal) minority. It is quite clear to me that, no matter what system is put in place, some folks are always going to complain about one or more aspects of that system. We now have a three-stage ‘judging’ process that requires rather a lot of volunteers. Nevertheless, we continue to hear from the perpetually dissatisfied. What should be harmless fun ends up, therefore, generating a lot of unpleasantness (if folks could see what is written on these staff forums it would, I think, be highly informative for them).

In my view the best solution would be to abolish IOTD and TP altogether.

Steve MilneI don’t think the process ‘satisfies a few and dissatisfies many’. Rather, if one looks at the number of users of the site, those who grumble about the process are in a tiny (albeit vocal) minority.

You're right, my opinion is probably still spoiled by my personal experience hence is not objective. I admit I am a person who seeks appreciation from others but in six years of subscription I've never "grumbled" about the IOTD or TP nor my post above is a grumble. Only now that my emotional involvement about the IOTD / TP selection process is null I felt like expressing an opinion taking advantage of the topic.

Steve MilneIn my view the best solution would be to abolish IOTD and TP altogether..

And I agree with you, IOTD and TP should be abolished and replaced with an automatic slider of all the pictures posted within a certain time.

Steve MilneIn my view the best solution would be to abolish IOTD and TP altogether.

Exactly Steve. I agree with you and it was something I proposed long time ago.

BTW, since they exist, I think it is not so strange that every now and then someone questions about the selections.

Now, as I said above, seeing as Top Picks/IOTD images in a time frame that spans less than 10 days of something in the foreground and a sky in the background, probably even not respecting the real perspective, is something that for me is quite weird.

There's a good bunch of people out there spending time/money/effort producing really nice *astro* images that IMHO should be nice to valued more than these ones.

I was used to post many pro data/amateur compositions during the past years, very few (maybe only one) became IOTD. And this is correct! They are not astrophotography in the true sense of the word. I've never complained about it, at least as far as I remember LoL.

Just to be clear, I don't want to change the process. Probably it is neither necessary.

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