Re: synaptic on 17.10

On 24/01/18 17:36, Colin Law wrote:

> On 24 January 2018 at 17:23, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>
> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
> has/will be fixed?
>
>
> If you select the X session on the login screen then it should be ok.

Thanks, Colin. Unfortunately the machine has left the building: my
friend has gone home and distance coaching isn't very practical. I've
left her with a text file on the desktop to guide her through 'sudo apt
update and upgrade'. That'll probably have to suffice until the flaw is
rectified.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

It's just that Wayland became the default, following the fashion to
make something that still breaks a lot of things a new default, instead
of waiting until the issues are fixed. Seemingly it's possible to chose
a X session by the display manager's greater.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On Wed, 2018-01-24 at 18:24 +0000, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote:
> Thanks, Colin. Unfortunately the machine has left the building: my
> friend has gone home and distance coaching isn't very practical. I've
> left her with a text file on the desktop to guide her through 'sudo
> apt update and upgrade'. That'll probably have to suffice until the
> flaw is rectified.

It's trivial to choose X; distance coaching is trivial. At the login
screen there's a little gear icon next to the login button, after you
choose the account to log in as.

Click it, and it will give you a list of ways to log in: probably there
will be only two things there. Choose the "X" one not the "Wayland"
one. Now log in normally. You only have to do this once: your
selection is remembered.

Second, there's no need to use Synaptic (or the command line either) if
all she wants to do is install updates. The default installation of
Ubuntu will check for updates daily and if some are found will pop up a
dialog asking if you want them installed. You just have to select
"yes". It will then recommend rebooting when necessary (a new kernel,
typically).

Alternatively, if she searches for "Software Updater" (go to the HUD by
moving the mouse to the top-left corner of the screen for example, then
start typing to search) she can access this simple interface directly
and it will tell her if her system is up to date and offer to update
it.

If she wants to install some new software, not update her current
software, she can search for the "Software" application which is the
Gnome Software utility, and install things from there. People have
issues with Gnome Software but it basically works.

Synaptic is only needed for more advanced usages and advanced users.
She doesn't need that based on what you've said here. I don't think it
should be recommended at all to people who just want to use their
system in a basic way.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On 24/01/18 18:53, Paul Smith wrote:
[...]
> Synaptic is only needed for more advanced usages and advanced users.
> She doesn't need that based on what you've said here. I don't think
> it should be recommended at all to people who just want to use their
> system in a basic way.

One advantage, though, is that it's a nice showcase for new users of the
vast amount of stuff (and occasional garbage :-) available for Linux.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>
> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
> has/will be fixed?
>
> Peter HB
>
>
>

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On 25/01/2018, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>
> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
> has/will be fixed?
>
> Peter HB
>
>

Does this mean that 18.04 will automatically be permanently broken
from the release date?

--

Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia

..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

Re: synaptic on 17.10

> On 25/01/2018, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
>> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>>
>> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
>> has/will be fixed?
>>
>
> Does this mean that 18.04 will automatically be permanently broken
> from the releas

It's not really 18.04 that is broken, but rather Synaptic which is...
and not yet fixed to use the new permissions model of 17.10 and
onwards.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>
> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
> has/will be fixed?
>
> Peter HB
>
>
>

Thanks to everyone for my enlightenment: well, almost everyone. The one

Re: synaptic on 17.10

> 2018-01-25 6:58 GMT+01:00 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:
>> On 25/01/2018, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
>>> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>>>
>>> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
>>> has/will be fixed?
>>>
>>
>> Does this mean that 18.04 will automatically be permanently broken
>> from the releas
>
> It's not really 18.04 that is broken, but rather Synaptic which is...
> and not yet fixed to use the new permissions model of 17.10 and
> onwards.
>
> --
> Gilles Gravier - [hidden email]> Using Google Apps web mail
>

If Synaptic does not work due to a new permissions model, what is the
change involved in the new permissions model, and, is it something to
which users need to adapt?

--

Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia

..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 04:56:29PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 12:44:24AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > If Synaptic does not work due to a new permissions model, what is the
> > change involved in the new permissions model,
>
> Essentially, Synaptic needs to run its GUI as the user running the
> desktop, and arrange to escalate privileges to root just for the backend
> jobs that manipulate the package system.

Oh, and if it helps, here's the upstream bug report with more detailed
commentary about what needs to be done:

Re: synaptic on 17.10

>2018-01-25 6:58 GMT+01:00 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:
>> On 25/01/2018, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a
>>> long list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>>>
>>> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of
>>> testing has/will be fixed?
>>>
>>
>> Does this mean that 18.04 will automatically be permanently broken
>> from the releas
>
>It's not really 18.04 that is broken, but rather Synaptic which is...
>and not yet fixed to use the new permissions model of 17.10 and
>onwards.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On 25/01/18 05:58, Bret Busby wrote:
> On 25/01/2018, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a
>> long list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>
> Does this mean that 18.04 will automatically be permanently broken
> from the release date?
I find it interesting from the UI point of view that with all the other
attempts to provide an interface for the installation and removal of
packages, Synaptic still retains a strong following.

I only use it to browse what's available, and that's not often; I'm
perfectly happy using apt for day-to-day updates and installation.

Perhaps there is a lesson in there for the designers and authors of
other interfaces to package management, as to what users actually want
to see on the screen; and at the two extremes, how much ancillary bloat
or how much bare-bones leanness they are prepared to put up with.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On Thursday 25 January 2018 15:01:25 Peter Flynn wrote:

> On 25/01/18 05:58, Bret Busby wrote:
> > On 25/01/2018, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a
> >> long list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
> >
> > Does this mean that 18.04 will automatically be permanently broken
> > from the release date?
>
> I find it interesting from the UI point of view that with all the
> other attempts to provide an interface for the installation and
> removal of packages, Synaptic still retains a strong following.
>

Thats because its a well trained child, does what you tell it to do, and
doesn't often rock the boat.

The spoiled brat named aptitude has destroyed a working system for the
3rd and last time here. So now its shot on sight. With rm if needed to
get rid of it.

> I only use it to browse what's available, and that's not often; I'm
> perfectly happy using apt for day-to-day updates and installation.

Thats fine. IF you know the package name. For that, there is synaptic.

> Perhaps there is a lesson in there for the designers and authors of
> other interfaces to package management, as to what users actually want
> to see on the screen; and at the two extremes, how much ancillary
> bloat or how much bare-bones leanness they are prepared to put up
> with.

My only complaint about synaptic is that since jessie, you can only run
it on its own screen, from its own keyboard. Doing that on a pi is
painfull, due to the lack of near white color depth on the pi, half the
data that tells you a pulldown is open isn't there, and that has led to
clicking on the wrong stuff. Also the scroll bar on the right is only
one pixel wide, and while it is possible to grab the slider, if it moves
off that vertical pixel as you attempt to pull it down, it disengages
from the slider and you start all over again. So its not all that user
friendly on a pi running jessie.

Most of my stuff here is machine control and with the kernels pinned to a
realtime build, wheezy is running all but one machine, and I can ssh -Y
into any other wheezy and run synaptic-pkexec from the shell. From a
nice comfortable chair. Is there some way I can restore that?

> ///Peter

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On 25/01/18 20:36, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 25 January 2018 15:01:25 Peter Flynn wrote:
>
>> [...] Synaptic still retains a strong following.
>>
> That's because its a well trained child, does what you tell it to do,
> and doesn't often rock the boat.

It has occasionally messed things up because it unwittingly installed
something broken, but it can hardly be blamed for that.

> The spoiled brat named aptitude has destroyed a working system for
> the 3rd and last time here. So now its shot on sight. With rm if
> needed to get rid of it.

I'm not a big fan of character-cell interfaces.

> Thats fine. IF you know the package name. For that, there is synaptic.

I usually know the package name because it's something I have known and
used on another system or because someone had suggested I use it. I got
a new printer/scanner last week, so I knew I needed xsane. Mr Google is
also useful, of course.

> [...] So its not all that user friendly on a pi running jessie.

That does sound a pity, but it's a combo I don't have.

> Most of my stuff here is machine control and with the kernels pinned
> to a realtime build, wheezy is running all but one machine, and I can
> ssh -Y into any other wheezy and run synaptic-pkexec from the shell.
> From a nice comfortable chair. Is there some way I can restore that?
I'll leave that to the experts.

Re: synaptic on 17.10

On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 07:38:19PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 10:00:31 +0100, Gilles Gravier wrote:
> >It's not really 18.04 that is broken, but rather Synaptic which is...
> >and not yet fixed to use the new permissions model of 17.10 and
> >onwards.
>
> Synaptic is not broken, it works with X.

To be fair, developers have been warned about running X applications as
root being an unwise model since at least 2006. (I certainly was when I
was putting Ubiquity together, even though I basically ignored it at the
time ...)

Re: synaptic on 17.10

> On 24 January 2018 at 17:23, Peter Hillier-Brook <[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I've just upgraded a friend's machine to Ubuntu 17:10 and joined a long
> list of people who've discovered that synaptic wont start.
>
> Has anyone information as to if/when this disastrous failure of testing
> has/will be fixed?
>
>
> If you select the X session on the login screen then it should be ok.

It's just been announced that 18.04 will ship with Xorg as default not
Wayland: