The above is my planned cycle with a lot of support supps. I'm currently on week 2 of the Havoc and will post a picture log of it once completed.

Using 11-oxo this way is supposed to allow you to keep the gains from Havoc while having extended time to cut and even slightly recover as 11-oxo is less suppressive than Havoc making PCT easier for keeping gains as well.

The above is my planned cycle with a lot of support supps. I'm currently on week 2 of the Havoc and will post a picture log of it once completed.

Using 11-oxo this way is supposed to allow you to keep the gains from Havoc while having extended time to cut and even slightly recover as 11-oxo is less suppressive than Havoc making PCT easier for keeping gains as well.

usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better

usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better

I'm somewhat of a newb but I agree with this. This the EXACTLY what I was thinking when I designed my next cycle. I've been pondering and changing but I've finally decided on 11-oxo for 8 weeks followed by 4 weeks of P-Plex while pulsing trenadrol on weight training days. I tried to get feedback on this cycle from another forum, but haven't received any yet.

usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better

if i understand correctly the ERGO site implys that the 11-oxo acts as a BRIDGE, blocking CORT and helping keep muscle from cycle to QUOTE "help solidify gains" so id guess they are saying this would allow some level of recovery as well almost like a mini PCT. but then again im just plain guessing lol

if i understand correctly the ERGO site implys that the 11-oxo acts as a BRIDGE, blocking CORT and helping keep muscle from cycle to QUOTE "help solidify gains" so id guess they are saying this would allow some level of recovery as well almost like a mini PCT. but then again im just plain guessing lol

Yeah I saw that too on the ergo site which makes sense, but then again 11-oxo is so mild I wonder how much of your gains it would allow you to keep if you're running a harsher compound that WILL shut you down. From what I've researched, I couldn't imagine getting shutdown and then having another 4-8 weeks of a mild anabolic that will keep you shutdown but then again not strong enough to really ellicit any intense effects in the gym. I don't know if I'm making sense, but this is a good subject to discuss. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe someone could start another thread on that particular subject. Just a thought......

Yeah I saw that too on the ergo site which makes sense, but then again 11-oxo is so mild I wonder how much of your gains it would allow you to keep if you're running a harsher compound that WILL shut you down. From what I've researched, I couldn't imagine getting shutdown and then having another 4-8 weeks of a mild anabolic that will keep you shutdown but then again not strong enough to really ellicit any intense effects in the gym. I don't know if I'm making sense, but this is a good subject to discuss. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe someone could start another thread on that particular subject. Just a thought......

exactly...once you are already shut down from the initial stronger compound, the weaker one is not going to help you recover, it will keep you shut down.

additionally, once you have already put on a lot of muscle with the stronger compound, diminishing returns set in and it takes more of the strong compound to get smaller gains...now switch to a weaker compound in addition to this and it's effect will be reduced.

this argument all points to running the 11oxo/cut first, and when it is less effective at the end increase the steroid strength with havoc/epi and bulk

exactly...once you are already shut down from the initial stronger compound, the weaker one is not going to help you recover, it will keep you shut down.

additionally, once you have already put on a lot of muscle with the stronger compound, diminishing returns set in and it takes more of the strong compound to get smaller gains...now switch to a weaker compound in addition to this and it's effect will be reduced.

this argument all points to running the 11oxo/cut first, and when it is less effective at the end increase the steroid strength with havoc/epi and bulk

I agree. Not knocking anyone, but sometimes if you logically think about these things it starts to make sensee. I don't think we should be locked into the mindset that what manufacturers put on the bottle or the "suggested" stack/cycle is the way is "has" to be run. As far as the Erogo site, I saw on another forum where people were so worried that the suggested stack didn't equate to the EXACT amount of pills in the bottles. It was like they were gonna loose 10lbs by missing 2 days of a 4 week cycle. Most companies "probably" don't put much thought into "suggested" cycles. Each one with experience will have to determine whats best for their goals/bodyweight based on the purpose and dosage of the hormone. Experience is the best teacher.

what about 11oxo for 6-8 weeks with a havoc pulse. this is something i have considered for myself

It would be somewhat effective IMO. The positive of course would be the drying out effect, but the negative IMO(Haven't tried Havoc personally) would be that its not a fast acting hormone from what I've seen. The reason I'm doing this with the Trenadrol is because their are reports of how fast acting it is in terms of gym intensity and aggression. I've heard alot of users state that it kicks in VERY fast. And from what its "speculated" to be, it WILL kick in VERY fast. If it were me, personally I would run the 11-oxo solo weeks 1-4 and havoc/11-oxo stacked weeks 5-8. JMHO.

I understand your angle on using 11-oxo before Havoc in a bridge. You're saying to get any gains from it you need to run it first. Remember though, we're talking about a cut here so the person will be calorie deficient which will greatly reduce the chance of any significant gains on 11-oxo (minus noob gains). The point of 11-oxo here is to maintain muscle and strength.

Now Havoc on the other hand is stronger and for many of us can add muscle and strength while cutting for a good recomp. However Havoc is recommended to be run for no more than 4 weeks so that's why the bridge is nice with 11-oxo to extend the time you can cut.

So, let's break it down using the beneficial theories from this thread of using Havoc before or after 11-oxo:

(Weeks 1-6) 11-oxo
(Weeks 7-10) Havoc

Benefits:

-(THEORY) 11-oxo from a fresh start and not being shut down will allow for easier gains while on it.

(Weeks 1-4) Havoc
(Weeks 5-10) 11-oxo

Benefits:

-(THEORY) 11-oxo will maintain muscle and strength gains from Havoc solidifying them further (making them easier to keep through PCT and after)

-(THEORY) 11-oxo will bring your body back slightly to a less shut down state making PCT easier on you

-(FACT) If using Nolva for PCT your liver gets a break between Havoc and Nolva which are both liver toxic

-(FACT) Since 11-oxo is run anywhere from 4-8 weeks, you can add or remove 1-2 weeks at the end as needed depending on where you are in relation to your bodyfat goals @ the end.

Am I missing anything? IMO the choice is clear when talking about a cutting/recomp cycle.

I understand your angle on using 11-oxo before Havoc in a bridge. You're saying to get any gains from it you need to run it first. Remember though, we're talking about a cut here so the person will be calorie deficient which will greatly reduce the chance of any significant gains on 11-oxo (minus noob gains). The point of 11-oxo here is to maintain muscle and strength.

Now Havoc on the other hand is stronger and for many of us can add muscle and strength while cutting for a good recomp. However Havoc is recommended to be run for no more than 4 weeks so that's why the bridge is nice with 11-oxo to extend the time you can cut.

So, let's break it down using the beneficial theories from this thread of using Havoc before or after 11-oxo:

(Weeks 1-6) 11-oxo
(Weeks 7-10) Havoc

Benefits:

-(THEORY) 11-oxo from a fresh start and not being shut down will allow for easier gains while on it.

(Weeks 1-4) Havoc
(Weeks 5-10) 11-oxo

Benefits:

-(THEORY) 11-oxo will maintain muscle and strength gains from Havoc solidifying them further (making them easier to keep through PCT and after)

-(THEORY) 11-oxo will bring your body back slightly to a less shut down state making PCT easier on you

-(FACT) If using Nolva for PCT your liver gets a break between Havoc and Nolva which are both liver toxic

-(FACT) Since 11-oxo is run anywhere from 4-8 weeks, you can add or remove 1-2 weeks at the end as needed depending on where you are in relation to your bodyfat goals @ the end.

Am I missing anything? IMO the choice is clear when talking about a cutting/recomp cycle.

I don't believe that if you're "shutdown" that adding more outside androgens will make you "less shutdown." That just doesn't make sense to me. Thats the whole reason your body stopped cranking out as much Test is because outside androgens were introduced and they accumulated so much in the body. Your body won't miraculously start making more Test just because the outside hormones you're putting in are different.

Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.

I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.

Plus I beleive the whole point of Patrick Arnold suggesting the 11-oxo "after" the new 1-AD is because its not supposed to shut you down hard. Its supposed to be mildly suppressive as reports have it. Guess we won't know until the Logs start coming in abundance.

This is REALLY a great topic to be discussed and debated. Thanks for your input Reseg.

I don't believe that if you're "shutdown" that adding more outside androgens will make you "less shutdown." That just doesn't make sense to me. Thats the whole reason your body stopped cranking out as much Test is because outside androgens were introduced and they accumulated so much in the body. Your body won't miraculously start making more Test just because the outside hormones you're putting in are different.

Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.

I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.

Plus I beleive the whole point of Patrick Arnold suggesting the 11-oxo "after" the new 1-AD is because its not supposed to shut you down hard. Its supposed to be mildly suppressive as reports have it. Guess we won't know until the Logs start coming in abundance.

This is REALLY a great topic to be discussed and debated. Thanks for your input Reseg.

its the same idea as tapering down your pct. first you start with a high anabolic/androgenic then to a lesser anabolic/androgenic compound. remember this is for a CUT. if you gain some lbm in at first with the havoc then great, but the main goal is keeping your muscle while shredding the fat!!
P.S. great debate so far. lets keep the ideas rolling!

its the same idea as tapering down your pct. first you start with a high anabolic/androgenic then to a lesser anabolic/androgenic compound. remember this is for a CUT. if you gain some lbm in at first with the havoc then great, but the main goal is keeping your muscle while shredding the fat!!
P.S. great debate so far. lets keep the ideas rolling!

Well I beleive the modulating of the Aromatase enzyme and jump starting natural testosterone a two VERY different things. The purpose of PCT is to put your body in a favorable state for it to produce test, hence antagonizing aromatase and blocking ERs. You taper down SERMS and AIs for your body to slowly balance out. Think about if you did 3-4 weeks of Superdrol how hard "some" people are shut down and the sides they have, now you have to feel like crap for the next 4 weeks because of the LACK of natural test, because I don't think your body is going to start back producing Test just by tapering off with a milder compound. Once you cease the androgens you put your body in an extremely more favorable state for Test to start up again. Now what if you ran the 11-oxo all the 8 weeks with 3-4 weeks of superdrol on the end? You would receive the benefits of 11-oxo throughout the cycle and be able to immediately go into PCT to jump start natural test again. The faster you get Natural Test started again, I beleive the more gains you keep. Maybe that just me.

Did you catch these points in my revious post?

Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.
I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

As for the 11-OXO, when it originally came out PA recommended not running it after any other hormones due to the anabolism/supression it can have. But the way the economy's going, I wouldn't be suprised if it was recommended while driving to save fuel.

usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better

What I recommend is opposite, read below:

Originally Posted by T H E O R E M

if i understand correctly the ERGO site implys that the 11-oxo acts as a BRIDGE, blocking CORT and helping keep muscle from cycle to QUOTE "help solidify gains" so id guess they are saying this would allow some level of recovery as well almost like a mini PCT. but then again im just plain guessing lol

A quasi/mini PCT is right; it helps recovery a little while making the PCT easier.

Originally Posted by rob561

what about 11oxo for 6-8 weeks with a havoc pulse. this is something i have considered for myself

I think pulsing a hormone is the retarded thing ever.

Originally Posted by purepower10

I don't believe that if you're "shutdown" that adding more outside androgens will make you "less shutdown."

How doesn't it? You're using a more mild compound, i.e. something that causes zero to low shutdown when taken solo.

Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.

It allows your T to raise if you're shutdown from Havoc, which is the goal of PCT, so it's kind of like Theorm said.

I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

I feel that you should be at recomp to quasi-bulking when going into PCT for any PH/DS/AAS run.

Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.

Though good rationale, it is true by saying I'm going to use a liver toxic drug for four weeks, then give it a four week break, and again back on a liver toxic drug for another four weeks. It certainly is A LOT better rationale that reseg is proposing by saying that than run eight weeks straight of liver toxic drug(s).

Originally Posted by purepower10

The faster you get Natural Test started again, I beleive the more gains you keep. Maybe that just me.

This is pretty much why we suggest using an 11-OXO bridge into PCT, at least as I see it anyway.

Originally Posted by purepower10

I've ran H-Drol stacked with Fura before and all I can say about that stack is............................ ......AWESOME!!!

How did you dose Fdrol and what's your bodyweight? From my experience and what I used to recommend when working for Axis was to dose about 300mg for a 200lb person, but also depending on history. If I were to run it again, I would dose it at 400-500mg (I'm 230ish).

E-Pharm Nutrition Representative
WARNING: I tend to speak my mind and will verbally assault you if you are a tool. My words do not necessarily represent the official opinion of E-Pharm, but most likely, they do.

How doesn't it? You're using a more mild compound, i.e. something that causes zero to low shutdown when taken solo.).

But you're already shutdown. I can see the hormone being mild and causing zero to low shutdown when taken solo. But you're already shutdown and I don't feel IMO that adding more outside adrogens helps or makes you "less" shutdown.

Originally Posted by Beejis60

It allows your T to raise if you're shutdown from Havoc, which is the goal of PCT, so it's kind of like Theorm said.

How does T raise if you're shutdown and still taking androgens?

Originally Posted by Beejis60

Though good rationale, it is true by saying I'm going to use a liver toxic drug for four weeks, then give it a four week break, and again back on a liver toxic drug for another four weeks. It certainly is A LOT better rationale that reseg is proposing by saying that than run eight weeks straight of liver toxic drug(s).

I don't think this rationale holds any weight to the discussion at hand. Nor do I think its a strong defense to whether or not to use a "weak" bridge.

Originally Posted by Beejis60

How did you dose Fdrol and what's your bodyweight? From my experience and what I used to recommend when working for Axis was to dose about 300mg for a 200lb person, but also depending on history. If I were to run it again, I would dose it at 400-500mg (I'm 230ish).

I'm ~250. I dosed it at 200mg. There's a log of it on this board. I know it was low, but that was all I was willing to spend on it at the time. I actually got what I consider great results stacked with the H-Drol. I like the product. I'll probably start collecting bottles here and there of it because I want to run it next summer for 8 weeks solo @ 300mg for 4 weeks, 450-600 for 4 weeks. I know its expensive, but there are products that I have just grown to love. I have ALOT of respect for ergopharm. Thats why I'm anxious to start this 12 weeks of 11-oxo Monday!!! I take dutch chocolate GF pro after every workout and for YEARS I've been a religious user of 6-oxo. I also buy alot of desiel test. Thanks for your addition to the discussion. I lurk alot at BB.com and I'm very familiar with your posts/views.

But you're already shutdown. I can see the hormone being mild and causing zero to low shutdown when taken solo. But you're already shutdown and I don't feel IMO that adding more outside adrogens helps or makes you "less" shutdown.

Well this is your opinion and, no offense, but I think I'll listen to Pat on this.

How does T raise if you're shutdown and still taking androgens?

By having zero to little shutdown capability, your boys will kick in due to the recognition of nothing signaling shutdown; your natural test will subsequently rise on it's own.

I don't think this rationale holds any weight to the discussion at hand. Nor do I think its a strong defense to whether or not to use a "weak" bridge.

It's probably not a strong defense, but I was saying it's good rationale; I have not seen anything supporting or denying it but I also do not seek an answer to this, I think it's good common sense.

I'm ~250. I dosed it at 200mg. There's a log of it on this board. I know it was low, but that was all I was willing to spend on it at the time. I actually got what I consider great results stacked with the H-Drol. I like the product. I'll probably start collecting bottles here and there of it because I want to run it next summer for 8 weeks solo @ 300mg for 4 weeks, 450-600 for 4 weeks. I know its expensive, but there are products that I have just grown to love. I have ALOT of respect for ergopharm. Thats why I'm anxious to start this 12 weeks of 11-oxo Monday!!! I take dutch chocolate GF pro after every workout and for YEARS I've been a religious user of 6-oxo. I also buy alot of desiel test. Thanks for your addition to the discussion. I lurk alot at BB.com and I'm very familiar with your posts/views.

I've grown wary of Get Diesel products for one reason, there's always one or two things in the ingredients that I just don't like and therefore never follow up on purchasing.
It will be awhile before you can land any Fdrol due to the olympics in China; probably will be available in the fall or winter, like with our new 1-AD.

E-Pharm Nutrition Representative
WARNING: I tend to speak my mind and will verbally assault you if you are a tool. My words do not necessarily represent the official opinion of E-Pharm, but most likely, they do.

Well this is your opinion and, no offense, but I think I'll listen to Pat on this.

None taken. I have learned ALOT from PAs posts on various sites. He is somewhat of a GURU when it comes to these things. Great columns in MD too. But no matter how much its debated, we all know that there is no ONE set way to cycle. We all WANT the Holy Grail cycle, but you just have to experiment and listen to your body. The body is not a textbook. Besides the difference is probably negligible anyway Just like I was saying earlier how people were worried about missing two days on cycle with the new 1-AD(which I can't wait to try for that matter!!!).

Originally Posted by Beejis60

By having zero to little shutdown capability, your boys will kick in due to the recognition of nothing signaling shutdown; your natural test will subsequently rise on it's own.

And no offense to you, but I TOTALLY disagree with this rationale. Once again, YOU'RE ALREADY SHUTDOWN. I just don't see ANYTHING signaling test to rise on its own when you're already shutdown and STILL adding androgens. Thats just like saying you could do a PH for PCT(No offense EPI lover's, really)LOL!!!

Originally Posted by Beejis60

I've grown wary of Get Diesel products for one reason, there's always one or two things in the ingredients that I just don't like and therefore never follow up on purchasing.
It will be awhile before you can land any Fdrol due to the olympics in China; probably will be available in the fall or winter, like with our new 1-AD.

I heard about that whole China delimma. I didn't know it was affecting the Fdrol. That sucks! How did you dose it and for how long? I love the compound! My wife does too!LOL!!! Makes me happy, happy, joy, joy!!!LOL!!! Well if ever you have some extra cash pickup a bottle of desiel test, solid product IMO. Never tried anything else from him though except Desiel Fuel. I hear good reviews on the Ether stuff he makes. Didn't you do 9 weeks of 11-oxo? I vaguely remember seeing that somewhere.

Correct. 3/3/3/6/6/6/9/9/9; three weeks at 3 caps was a waste in my opinion (no pimp).

E-Pharm Nutrition Representative
WARNING: I tend to speak my mind and will verbally assault you if you are a tool. My words do not necessarily represent the official opinion of E-Pharm, but most likely, they do.