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I just had a bit of a ding-dong with Steve Jabba over breakfast this morning as we were discussing some of the implications of his recent post on the three levels of Game. I thought I’d put a few notes down here for my readers’ edification.

My mother is a shrewish frame-controlling narcissist. Well up into my mid-twenties I’d not even seen anything unusual about this so thoroughly had I bought her frame as normal. Gradually as I got more life experience, discussed things with my brother, and spent longer periods of time away from her due to my living away from my hometown I started to see her behaviour more objectively. Don’t get me wrong she wasn’t a malignant narcissist and she has always been very giving in putting her children’s interests first. For a long time I even considered my childhood idyliic. But that frame-controlling…… here’s a sample conversation:

Her: How was your day?

Me: Pretty good. I’ve been looking for a new camera for a while. There’s a new Nikon advance companct I think I’ll buy

Her: um [impatient]

Me: I want something that’ll fit in my pocket but is pretty good at taking photos in low light, because then I’ll be able to carry it around on my travels but still get decent photos when I’m in pubs and

Her:[interrupt] Yes, pubs. You’ll love this new client at work. The family is…

Me: [interrupt] That’s got nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

Her: Yes, yes yes. So this new client…. [prattles on for half an hour about her job while I overtly show no interest]

My mother is incapable of talking about anything except herself and in particular whatever is at the front of her mind at that moment in time. She’s also got an extremely aggressive frame-push conbined with zero calibration and a refusal to listen to or learn anything new. Her reality is so strong that absolutely nothing can penetrate it unless there’s a predetermined spot prepared for that new information to occupy. Like transplanting an organ if there’s the slightest incompatibility the new information will be rejected out of hand. The frame-push is so strong she’ll constantly interrupt people and follow them around the house to keep chipping away. I’ll say things like “Stop talking to me. I’m trying to read” and it’ll just bounce off. She cannot process the world as it is. Feedback is not allowed into her complex reality-weave.

I consider this a learning disability. In earlier times she’d likely have been murdered.

So that’s what I grew up with. Whereas my father just rolled over and “yes dear”ed his way through the marriage I fought it the whole way through my childhood until I’d internalised the same frame. Narcissistic contagion. A strong frame combined with zero calibration is a recipe for social ostracisation as you dominate social gatherings without taking due care that others are enjoying the situation. Before long they just avoid you. I do that now with frame-controlling weirdos – although I can easily rip the frame off them I just see no point in expending the energy so I just freeze them out of my life.

The trappings of civilisation

The manosphere didn’t exist in my twenties. I had no vocabulary to describe these dynamics, just blue pill psychology. It never crossed my mind that twenty-five years of resisting a frame-controlling narcissist had a hugely positive silver lining: (i) a bulletproof frame (ii) a strong regard for protecting my own self interest. I struggled to reconcile these attributes with society’s expectations and my own moral code. Put simply, I felt like my animal brain was a barely-domesticated pitbull straining on a leash held by my human brain. The thin veneer of civilisation that covered the beast inside existed only because of a constant restraining effort on the part of my learned logical forebrain. If I let the pitbull off the leash it would just run amok. Not high-school-shooting-amok (I felt no hate to society or urge towards violence) but that the pitbull would just run directly to whatever it wants and take it, consequences be damned. Then like a dog owner cleaning his dog’s shit off someone else’s front lawn, I’d have to deal with embarassment and social fallout as I try to return my self-opinion to that of a gentleman. A respectable member of the community. So I consciously learned to moderate by behaviour to prevent the pendulum to swing out to the extremes – I came to deny myself both exhuberance and anger. I learned state control and a poker face.

Of course this barely-civilised barbarian schtick is a big part of why women fell for me. Blue pill beta that I was I felt it but couldn’t get it into my logical brain.

Many men remember their first encounter with the manosphere (taking the red pill) as a Great Liberation. It’s the moment when a respected elder teacher puts his arm around your shoulder and says “It’s ok to feel like this. You aren’t the only one. Your feelings and secret theories are right. It’s the world that’s wrong.” Women get the same immense relief when I put them in their place.

in touch with his core

Now I see that men are supposed to impose themselves upon the world. Men are supposed to put their own interested front and centre. Women are attracted by men who do this and feel secure around them. You do need to put the leash on the pitbull in order to navigate through society. Unrestrained alphas don’t last long in modern society – sure we can point to some apex alphas who are killing it, but that’s survivor bias. The road to successful alphadom is littered with the graves of failures. To build the metaphor further, you need to accept your inner pitbull. Accept the aggression. Accept the animal spirits. Accept the urge to chase the car down the street and piss against a lampost. Don’t forget you’ll need a wise owner on the end of the leash lest the exterminators come around with a court order.

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This is something i’ve had to deal with lately having taken the red pill and not knowing when to pull back and not become ostracized.

It’s the reason i got asked to leave at my last 2 jobs; the latter one due to working directly under 2 bitter feminists who couldn’t accept the fact that i was domineering and masculine in their presence and unable to supplicate underneath them as an obedient colleague like a dog on a leash.

I’ve realized that the best way to win the frame or any argument is to simply nod, smile and ignore it. It communicates a far lot more than if i tried exuding all of my energy trying to convince people that i’m right. A person who’s right doesn’t need to prove he’s right.

It really depends on the context. I may be more of a Sigma then an Alpha. A sigma doesn’t really want to be a part of the system. That’s probably what my problem is since an alpha uses the system to his advantage, whereas i honestly don’t care for it which puts me in a disadvatage when working in industry.

My ex-wife would always complain that I never “talked about real stuff with her.”

Yet when we had discussions where intimacy would about to be achieved, e.g., when I’d begin revealing formative childhood memories and experiences, she’d immediately shift to something trivial. So I stopped opening up. I just talked about nonsense and bullshit.

Here is a typical example of a conversation with a Western woman:
“When I lost my job and became homeless, I really learned…”
[interrupts] I was just thinking about the dream house I want to live in!

Yeah I agree Steve… the women that truly attract me are intelligent, educated and brilliant conversation partners. I’ve had a lot of comments on my blog of guys saying they don’t find any of these traits in women to be attractive or to increase their dating value. I just don’t relate to this at all, I think it’s utterly essential.

“You do need to put the leash on the pitbull in order to navigate through society…. But Accept the aggression”

It’s good to hear candid talk about this in a mature way.

Gene Simmons is a fascinating case. He is NOT a great musician, particularly charismatic in person, or even good looking.

Instead Gene Simmons is magnetic to girls largely because of his FRAME. You listen to him talk for 2 minutes and you say, “Who is this guy?”

He wants to fuck a lot of girls, and he wants to make a lot of money, and he tells you so. There is No filter with this guy. You can feel the composure and confidence coming through the TV screen

BTW the Steve Jabba video picking up the Spanish chick on the London street is the best in field video I’ve ever seen. You appreciate the mastery it takes… and what might be possible with Game. Inspirational

Humbly, in my experience, learning frame control years ago was analogous to employing training wheels while learning to ride a bike as a kid (I never actually used training wheels; upon graduating from Big Wheels to bike, I just crashed into curbs and mailboxes often, until I learned not to… good argument for training wheels, I suppose).

With the benefit of retrospect, the analogy goes something like this: by learning that holding one’s frame will cause others to relate to one in a manner that one more desires, it tends to build confidence in one’s sense of inner balance. Once that inner balance–that belief in the true sense of oneself–is adequately anchored, then the training wheels (framing) come off, so that one can begin tearing across rugged trails and jumping dirt mounds.

This is why I don’t personally advocate long term utilization of framing (though I don’t admonish others who do). In my personal opinion, long term framing leads to the types of personalities we all see in upper levels of social strata: politicians, executives, celebrities, etc. I personally don’t relate to those people and have no desire whatsoever for my life to be in any way similar to theirs. The vast majority of them, it seems to me, have built their entire temporal existences on frame upon frame upon frame, to the point that once they finally reach their promised land, they have become slaves to their frames, and all the infinite social hooks (obligations) that those frames are tied into.

For me, the whole point of understanding Red Pill and game principles, the true machinations of human society (banking, law, health, et al), and personal and spiritual development, is, ultimately, freedom. The closer I get to that improbable goal, the less I find myself needing to frame anything (new relationships still typically involve a bit, until the initial canine butt sniffing has subsided). Not disagreeing with anyone; just sharing.

“Many men remember their first encounter with the manosphere (taking the red pill) as a Great Liberation. It’s the moment when a respected elder teacher puts his arm around your shoulder and says “It’s ok to feel like this. You aren’t the only one. Your feelings and secret theories are right. It’s the world that’s wrong.” Women get the same immense relief when I put them in their place.”

Krauser, this really resonated with me. I had a friend introduce me to the Manosphere, and it was exactly like you describe. The first post I came across was Roissy’s 16 Laws, and from there it has been a continual learning and growing experience, including with expert elders. This has allowed me to apply years of studying and applying game further than I ever had before, to understand relationships and long-term interactions between men and women far, far better than ever before.

I like what you say about women getting that same relief, and I find that’s exactly the case. When they don’t have to think on dates or about things that men take care of, there is a huge relief as they surrender to your dominance.

So well put. It is sad, but both my mom and sister are like this too. For example, my sister and I were talking the other day about my mom and what help she needs when, in mid-stream, she re-framed the conversation to herself; why she cannot help, “she has too much on her plate,” she cannot do this or that because of blah, blah, blah etc. After 5 minutes of her blathering, I had to interrupt her. I told her while I understand her points, this matter was not about her. Silence followed…

Like Onder, I too lost a job working for a female. I was COO to a female CEO who had not f**king idea what she wanted. She played “being the boss” and spent worthless amounts of time collaborating with others that had no impact on moving the business forward, making decisions based on how she felt and avoiding the real work of growing a business. Back in 2007, the “red pill” was nothing I knew of; I was a Beta wuss who tried to please her and do what I thought she wanted. I was one of 7-8 senior execs she cycled through her team. If I had only knew then what I know now, my tenure would be different.

I know some dudes who are narcissistic and alpha as fuck but they don’t get chicks. Correction: they don’t get western chicks… The girls go each time for the more “beta-like” dudes. I cracked my skull thinking about this. Why o why don’t these guys get laid? Their game is top notch but the girls get scared. Their anti-slut defense kicks in and they go with the more beta type of dudes, again and again… The dudes that don’t look or act dangerous. I think being more or less being beta is the way to go if you want western chicks. They are obviously attracted to these guys, but the social control is too big. The girls are too much emasculated so these guys just don’t fit their lifestyle.
It seems to me that being the beta orbiter with quieter alpha tendencies is the way to go if you want western pussy.

What we now call Frame was in previous centuries called honor. Men were very protective of their honor and were always on guard against insults to it. Men knew not to mess with another man’s honor as he could expect a violent reprisal.

I personally think that the alpha man concept with no imaginative basis fails to help guys in achieving the desired goals even though it does provide some kind of motivation. Recently I read about the Odyssey which along with the Iliad, spiritually inspires a whole new Greek civilization as the basis of modern civilization with its ideals of independence, freedom, democracy, justice, beauty, art, and etc. The book of Odyssey sets a imaginative basis of what an ideal man should be. He overcomes danger of war, he uses intelligence by coming up with the idea of Trojan horse then put himself in there, saving his men from the cyclops, tied himself to the pole while sailing by the Sirens since he wants to hear their songs but knows he might make unwise decision, overcomes the seduction of beauty by the two beautiful goddesses, refuse to live comfortably in immortality with the goddess after his men all died at sea and chooses to return to the dangerous journey to home knowing the future will be full of danger. The current PUA culture is full of debauchery and drowns itself in physical beauty but it misses the goal of the ideal man. The ideal man is not to be chained in comfort and in physical beauty, but to seek a higher goal even it’s full of danger and suffering.

“A strong frame combined with zero calibration is a recipe for social ostracisation as you dominate social gatherings without taking due care that others are enjoying the situation. Before long they just avoid you”

Absolute story of my life. You’re mother sounds pretty similar to mine. It took me awhile as well to realize the real reality of the situation. I would always wonder why so many alphas challenged me and so many betas shunned me.

It’s amazing how spot on most of this advice around the manosphere is, and how you guys are able to succinctly express the ideas and beliefs we are all feeling. After spending years feeling like a pariah, it is excellent to watch men defer to me constantly, and the looks on women’s faces when I give them the privilege of my attention… Well I imagine you know what that is about.

Brilliant dude. Whats blue pill red pill? I have a similar pitbull mom, that can drive a spouse to suicide and I have a ‘gift’ from her of a 1100 Free-T level in my 30s! I never used game but am beginning now. Where I live there was not a shortage of ***, but now there is.

Im on my first job in years after having run a business for 7 years. Im doing great with the women, they even volunteer to do my work sometimes, but I just cant stand the fucking cunt men… I have to control my agression so it isnt all out war. Gotta be careful or they might gang up on me.
Timur