Also, it's somewhat of a tradition in our family to offer small household items to the extended family after death. There are some small things I've given my brother over the years that it would mean the world to me to have back, but that are probably going to Goodwill.)

-"In lieu of flowers, please send memorials to the family." Memorials in this case being a euphemism for cash. SIL is not hurting for cash, and this isn't something where there are large medical bills. Her children may be hurting for cash but if so it's from their own poor behavior.

My mother is LIVID. "I'm not giving them a dime, they're just going to spend it on something stupid."

I'm so sorry for your loss, and so very sorry for your poor mother as well. To lose your son is bad enough without being treated like that by her surviving family. And to even think about asking for cash in a situation like that ... these people have no shame.

To comment specifically on the section I quoted above. If you are still in touch with them and you know they're clearing his stuff and sending stuff to Goodwill, I think it's not unreasonable at all to call one of them and say "Hey, I heard you are clearing out Brother's stuff. Remember that vase I gave to him 15 years ago? If you're getting rid of that, it would mean so much to me if I could have it back, as a special keepsake to remind me of my brother".

My sister and brother-in-law have began to slide fast into an abyss I am afraid. It has already caused tension within my family.

My sister has a public state institution job and her husband worked in corrections. They currently have two children less than eight. Some months ago he got tired of working this job so he took a manual labor job for less money I am sure. This was right after they purchased a new to them van for the family, but nothing super fancy. Few months later decide to buy husband a new to them truck for his manly new job. They apparently borrowed some money from my father to help purchase this vehicle.

Couple months later they decide they want to start camping on a regular basis and look into buying a fairly new camper. They again ask to borrow money from my father to help with a down payment because the bank of dad was apparently now open for business. Thank god he said no this time but it was not without issues. Because of this, over the last few months he has only been able to see two of his grandchildren very sparingly and only when he just forces the issue. It's really sad how things like this can come between family but at least you can find out some folks true colors.

Now move forward a few more months and these new debts only to find out the husband and wife decided it was time to have another child since they were wanting a specific gender previously. Luckily, they did just find out it was the gender they had hoped for. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For her daughter to attend national ballet summer academy, so prestigous, but man. gofundme?! While not cutting any personal expenses and not even approaching anyone in person first for assistance? I must be old, but this is so... !! ....

Don't know how I will hold my tongue, I think I may end up posting here a lot.

Talking about our plans for early retirement with an older family member a few days ago. This person is financially savvy, having retired at around age 50, but was a bit critical about my plan to retire before age 40.

They started telling a horror story of a friend who retired right before the 2008 crash and how sad it was for him. I mean, he even had to sell his penthouse suite!

I was like, first of all, why didnít he have a cash buffer? Iím no expert but most retirement sites recommend a 2-3 year cash buffer to cover expenses in case of a crash so you donít have to tap into your retirement fund. Second of all, why did he buy a penthouse immediately before retiring?

My cousin lives with us. We offered to rent him a room to get away from his over bearing parents so he can get back up on his feet and make a plan without his parents shitting on every idea he has. We are also a one income family while my husband is in school, so an extra bit of rent a month is an appealing thing. Well, he talked a good game but we are slowly learning why his parents may have been so frustrated.

He hasn't paid his very reasonable $300 rent on time once since he has moved in. he makes $16 and hour and works nearly every day (he says) so the money should be there. He was 20 days late paying us February rent, and came home the next day in brand new $135 boots. He doesn't need new boots, he has three pairs already.

He came home stressed over part of a dental bill that went to collections for $800. He wasn't sure how he was going to pay it, and was trying to hint at us waiving his rent so he could throw it at his debts. He then proceeded to spend the next THREE days out with his friends partying and getting shit-faced and blacked out drunk.

Despite us telling him he can help himself to the fridge and share dinner with us - we like variety and cooking for 2 can be hard sometimes - he still opts to come home with a new and exciting sixer of beer almost everyday and buys food for the week that he then lets go bad because he eats out at work most days.

He got a full time job at the hospital three miles from my house - I work there and often bike - he proceeded to quit that job, and now commutes in a truck he can't afford to a hospital 45-60 mins away. My husband is a mechanic and offered to help him find and pick out a decent commuter car before he moved in with us, which my cousin insisted he wanted the help, and then bought the truck without any input from us anyways. This truck is kind of a lemon, and my husband graciously spends his free time patching it up to keep it on the road.

He works contingent at the current hospital, and has turned down three full time positions because they were "boring" or "not the hours he wanted to work". He makes so many bad money decisions, and we cannot talk any sense into him, despite him wanting to move in with us specifically so we could help him get on his feet. His parents have already said he can't move back in, and we don't want to throw family out into the street, but we are starting to consider it.

And for every finance blogged that suggests renting out a room, fuck you and fuck that. Never again will we add a roommate.

My cousin lives with us. We offered to rent him a room to get away from his over bearing parents so he can get back up on his feet and make a plan without his parents shitting on every idea he has. We are also a one income family while my husband is in school, so an extra bit of rent a month is an appealing thing. Well, he talked a good game but we are slowly learning why his parents may have been so frustrated.

He hasn't paid his very reasonable $300 rent on time once since he has moved in. he makes $16 and hour and works nearly every day (he says) so the money should be there. He was 20 days late paying us February rent, and came home the next day in brand new $135 boots. He doesn't need new boots, he has three pairs already.

He came home stressed over part of a dental bill that went to collections for $800. He wasn't sure how he was going to pay it, and was trying to hint at us waiving his rent so he could throw it at his debts. He then proceeded to spend the next THREE days out with his friends partying and getting shit-faced and blacked out drunk.

Despite us telling him he can help himself to the fridge and share dinner with us - we like variety and cooking for 2 can be hard sometimes - he still opts to come home with a new and exciting sixer of beer almost everyday and buys food for the week that he then lets go bad because he eats out at work most days.

He got a full time job at the hospital three miles from my house - I work there and often bike - he proceeded to quit that job, and now commutes in a truck he can't afford to a hospital 45-60 mins away. My husband is a mechanic and offered to help him find and pick out a decent commuter car before he moved in with us, which my cousin insisted he wanted the help, and then bought the truck without any input from us anyways. This truck is kind of a lemon, and my husband graciously spends his free time patching it up to keep it on the road.

He works contingent at the current hospital, and has turned down three full time positions because they were "boring" or "not the hours he wanted to work". He makes so many bad money decisions, and we cannot talk any sense into him, despite him wanting to move in with us specifically so we could help him get on his feet. His parents have already said he can't move back in, and we don't want to throw family out into the street, but we are starting to consider it.

And for every finance blogged that suggests renting out a room, fuck you and fuck that. Never again will we add a roommate.

A couple months ago, I dealt with something similar with my sister-in-law, except no income at all and a couple drug addictions thrown in the mix.

And for every finance blogged that suggests renting out a room, fuck you and fuck that. Never again will we add a roommate.

You're treating him like a roommate and not like a tenant. If he doesn't pay the rent, evict him.

Yep.

Definitely. This is a guy who is learning a lesson now -- either that you're willing to enable him, or that you'll expect him to meet his commitments to you.

You are not doing him a favor in the long run by enabling him. He is getting a screwed idea of how the world works if everyone lets him stay for free and would pay his dentist bills while he continues to party. I would sit down with him and explain that you cannot afford to have a roommate that doesn't pay rent. He has the option to setup an auto-payment in his bank to pay you the rent the day after his salary comes in. If the next rent doesn't come on time, evict him. You could be flexible by synchronizing the payment date to his salary date.But in the end, it doesn't sound like a guy you want to have living in your house. Your husband should consider not helping him out so much with the car. Or maybe teaching the guy to do it himself. But not paying for any parts.

Just to clarify, it was genuine surprise, not some kind of judgement from my side. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm just really surprised because I've never heard anyone say that irl, not even people who I know get financial support from their parents. But if phone plans are so extremely expensive in the US and people can get a better deal on a family plan and no one feels resentment about it, then sure, go ahead. For comparison: my 1GB/unlimited calls and texts deal costs me around Ä8,50/month which is around $10. I'm all for sharing accounts and plans to save money, we share our Netflix and Spotify accounts with relatives (but split the cost).

As a reference, Ting, which is the cheapest thing I can find, is $~17/month for 100 minutes, 100 texts, and 100MB.AT&T has a 1GB/unlimited calls and texts for $35/month.

H2O (at&t) has an unlimited talk/text with 1 GB data for $20/month ($18 if you have auto-renew set up). That's probably the closest direct comparison.

Just to clarify, it was genuine surprise, not some kind of judgement from my side. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm just really surprised because I've never heard anyone say that irl, not even people who I know get financial support from their parents. But if phone plans are so extremely expensive in the US and people can get a better deal on a family plan and no one feels resentment about it, then sure, go ahead. For comparison: my 1GB/unlimited calls and texts deal costs me around Ä8,50/month which is around $10. I'm all for sharing accounts and plans to save money, we share our Netflix and Spotify accounts with relatives (but split the cost).

As a reference, Ting, which is the cheapest thing I can find, is $~17/month for 100 minutes, 100 texts, and 100MB.AT&T has a 1GB/unlimited calls and texts for $35/month.

H2O (at&t) has an unlimited talk/text with 1 GB data for $20/month ($18 if you have auto-renew set up). That's probably the closest direct comparison.

Derailing the thread. How have I not heard of H20 before?? Ting coverage is awful where I need it. ATT offers the best coverage in that area. I will definitely be exploring this further when Iím ready to change! Thanks.

And for every finance blogged that suggests renting out a room, fuck you and fuck that. Never again will we add a roommate.

You're treating him like a roommate and not like a tenant. If he doesn't pay the rent, evict him.

Yep.

Definitely. This is a guy who is learning a lesson now -- either that you're willing to enable him, or that you'll expect him to meet his commitments to you.

Get him to the street, change the locks. As for the rent money he owes you, write off and chalk it up to life experience.

Renting a room can really help finances but only if you do it right. You can rent to family but there should be more communication given beforehand and during. I collect rent first thing on the month, my roommate is great about having the check written out and on the counter so if a few times he forgets it isn't a big deal as he'll have it there the next day. I love that I don't need to ask for payment.

You need to tell him in so many words that either he pays you on time, or he's out. You wouldn't be throwing him out; he's throwing himself out by failing to follow a few clear rules.

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I would sit down with him and explain that you cannot afford to have a roommate that doesn't pay rent. He has the option to setup an auto-payment in his bank to pay you the rent the day after his salary comes in. If the next rent doesn't come on time, evict him. You could be flexible by synchronizing the payment date to his salary date.

This. But since he can't manage his money (I would tell him this), transfer the rent weekly. Telling him to pay on time isn't working; you have to enforce it. And he needs to *feel* what it's like to have $300 less available. Either he gets it, or (more likely) he gets to live on his own and learn the hard way. He sounds like the kind of guy who has to learn the hard way.

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He works contingent at the current hospital, and has turned down three full time positions because they were "boring"

I'm actually surprised how often I read "I'm on my parents' plan" on this forum. Is this a normal thing? Just asking, because to me it just sounds so strange.

It always surprises me to see it. I had my own phone plan at 18, and before that I was paying for my own pre-paid phone credit.

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.Telling me the bill won't increase, we'll see! They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh! This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place) He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making. So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.Telling the bill won't increase, we'll see! They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh! This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place) He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making. So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.

I'd be nice and give them 6 months or something to get back on their feet, then they either get their own plan or chip in for their share. If you go this route, be upfront so they can plan. Or not plan, but that's their problem not yours.

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.Telling the bill won't increase, we'll see! They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh! This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place) He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making. So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.

I'd be nice and give them 6 months or something to get back on their feet, then they either get their own plan or chip in for their share. If you go this route, be upfront so they can plan. Or not plan, but that's their problem not yours.

Yes, that's reasonable, but there's more to the story :-) My daughter just got accepted to dental college, we will be paying for the 4 years of tuition, so the extra $800 a year for the phone is like 1.2% of the tuition. So she's on my dole for a while yet.Lucky for her we have been savers for our whole marriage (37 yrs) and can afford it. And she's not a slouch, she's out their getting it done.

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.Telling the bill won't increase, we'll see! They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh! This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place) He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making. So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.

I'd be nice and give them 6 months or something to get back on their feet, then they either get their own plan or chip in for their share. If you go this route, be upfront so they can plan. Or not plan, but that's their problem not yours.

Yes, that's reasonable, but there's more to the story :-) My daughter just got accepted to dental college, we will be paying for the 4 years of tuition, so the extra $800 a year for the phone is like 1.2% of the tuition. So she's on my dole for a while yet.Lucky for her we have been savers for our whole marriage (37 yrs) and can afford it. And she's not a slouch, she's out their getting it done.

Goddaughter/Niece's 7th birthday party was yesterday and I have a 520 account I contribute to monthly for her. Wife asked what we were getting her and I said I just plan on putting $25 extra in the account since she is having 25 kids over for a patry giving her toys she doesn't need. (My sister has a 1,400 square foot house with 3 kids. Not small but it fills up fast). Recognizing this wasn't very exciting for a 7 year-old I gave in to getting her a real present. My wife grabbed a swimsuit, cover-up and flip flops. I was shocked it was $45. Just seemed like a waste that didn't bring any real happiness or value. I guarantee if you asked my niece about the swimsuit she would have no idea what you were talking about.

Goddaughter/Niece's 7th birthday party was yesterday and I have a 520 account I contribute to monthly for her. Wife asked what we were getting her and I said I just plan on putting $25 extra in the account since she is having 25 kids over for a patry giving her toys she doesn't need. (My sister has a 1,400 square foot house with 3 kids. Not small but it fills up fast). Recognizing this wasn't very exciting for a 7 year-old I gave in to getting her a real present. My wife grabbed a swimsuit, cover-up and flip flops. I was shocked it was $45. Just seemed like a waste that didn't bring any real happiness or value. I guarantee if you asked my niece about the swimsuit she would have no idea what you were talking about.

You're a good godfather/uncle. The gift of compounding interest over time is wonderful, and I'm sure she'll appreciate it when she is older.

Just when I thought my BIL and SIL couldn't get any more ridiculous, they out do themselves...

BIL and SIL work in "oil country", making decent salaries (He is an engineer, she is a teacher). They are in their mid 30s, live in a Mini McMansion in a suburb, have 2 young children, and have an affinity for fancy cars.

They are constantly car swapping, upgrading, selling, buying etc. Currently they have a fancy jeep thing, and a big hecking escalade with all the fixins. They also have a lambourgini (for fun??). It is slightly older (2006 I think?) but still, the cost of keeping that thing on the road+ monthly payments are more than what we pay for a mortgage.

MrHH was talking to his brother last night, and we were informed that they are selling the lambo. Finally, we thought, they are realizing that spending that much money on a car is ridiculous....

Nope. They are selling the lambo to "BUY" A FERRARI. Shipping it up from the states, probably going to end up costing them over 200k CAD. Plus all the incidental fees of that car. Even if he resells this car in 3-5 years (as seems to be the pattern), we figure interest+depreciation+ maintenance+ insurance will cost him 20-30k a year.

Now fair enough, it is their money, and if they want to work until they are 70 to pay for this fancy car habit, more power to them, but what drives us nuts is that they often complain about how hard it would be for them to move back closer to family because they "can't afford" the pay cut, and how "lucky" Mr.HH and I are to be closer to family. Their life is so hard.

Grumble grumble.

Meanwhile we are over here feeling bad about eating fancy snacks we purchased on a whim and how we "wasted" $11.99.

Nope. They are selling the lambo to "BUY" A FERRARI. Shipping it up from the states, probably going to end up costing them over 200k CAD. Plus all the incidental fees of that car. Even if he resells this car in 3-5 years (as seems to be the pattern), we figure interest+depreciation+ maintenance+ insurance will cost him 20-30k a year.

Depending on the model of Ferrari it may not depreciate at all. At 200k CAD it's obviously not a brand new car. Most used Ferraris are holding their value really well or even appreciating. Even the relatively more mass produced models. Now that's not to say it's a wise use of money. The rest of the expenses you listed are still quite significant on a Ferrari and they are certainly losing a lot of money on anything that isn't a rapidly appreciating classic.

Goddaughter/Niece's 7th birthday party ..... I gave in to getting her a real present. My wife grabbed a swimsuit, cover-up and flip flops. I was shocked it was $45. Just seemed like a waste that didn't bring any real happiness or value. I guarantee if you asked my niece about the swimsuit she would have no idea what you were talking about.

Make a date and take her swimming too. She will likely remember that forever.

Oh they are the type that everything is an investment. SIL: "These high quality clothes are investment pieces" girl please, your $400 LV mass produced purse is not a investment.

My BIL does wheel and deal to buy and sell his cars so he often doesn't lose too much money on them, (or so we are told), it is more so the operation and maintenance cost, and the general monthly carrying costs that boggle my mind, combined with the "oh poor us we can't move back to be closer to family" comments, not to mention the stress my BIL has because he could never risk losing his job.

Fancy car in my driveway that I drive 1x per week for 4 months of the year MAX vs living a laid back stress free life.....I'll choose the later!

(Also I love the math that for the less than the cost of owning that car, MrHH, who does love cars as well, could go to track day ~1x per week and drive better cars at speeds they are designed to drive, but then we don't get to tell people we have a Ferrari and that is what really counts...ugh).

I have an older moonbat (OM) distant relative who is thinking about investing in a business for another, much younger, moonbat (YM) relative to run.

I can't possibly see how this won't be full of WIN.

The younger relative is a 20 y.o. pothead who is 'kind of' in school, and is taking classes he got 'stuck with' because he 'forgot' to register and really had no choice in what to take.

He 'has his own place' (lives with a girlfriend whose parents pay the rent) and has trouble coming up with his share of the internet bill. He is always looking for handouts. He currently has two different parents AND a grandparent paying for his cell phone bill....each! He neglected to mention to any of them about the other's contributions. He just pockets the 'windfall'.

This last month he had an unexpected crisis. He needed to replace his car because somebody tried to 'hot wire' it and it caught on fire. His car was a mid 2000's VW or something. I'm not sure it was a PRIME target for a thief to 'hotwire'....but he is positive this is what happened.

Before OM entered the picture, YM's plan was to 'hit the road with the band'. He seems to think that the $20/night income on average he'd make is plenty enough to live on the road. Frankly I'd be shocked if he made it out of a gig w/o drinking the twenty bucks away during it. I'm not sure how the daily weed fund is going to be funded on top of that. Maybe he can get a fourth person to pay the cell phone?

The grand plan that OM has come up with is to 'invest in' a Pot Farm and have YM, a 20 y.o. wake-and-bake reefer dude, manage it. Wow. Just wow. This is a Fox-running-the-Henhouse level of insanity.

If this plan POSSIBLY goes awry, I will hopefully at least have a few entertaining tales to share down the road.

My step-daughter just got a divorce. They sold their house and each of them bought their own house.

Step-daughter bought a fixer upper. She took her father thru the house and showed him everything it needs; he comes home and wants to help her out financially. We finally agree to give her $3000 for a house-warming gift (I know, face punch)!

She decides to buy a new AC/furnace. She is quoted $5500, she says yes, they come and install everything and it is $7500. WTF

She comes over today, for Mother's Day, and she pulls into the driveway in a brand new 2018 Toyota 4 Runner, financed for SEVEN YEARS.

Her ex-husband went on vacation and so she thinks it is only fair that she goes on vacation, so spur of the moment, she books a trip to LA, for a week, over Memorial Day.

I asked her about her finances and she said they were able to pay off all but TWO of their credit cards when they sold their house.

My step-daughter just got a divorce. They sold their house and each of them bought their own house.

Step-daughter bought a fixer upper. She took her father thru the house and showed him everything it needs; he comes home and wants to help her out financially. We finally agree to give her $3000 for a house-warming gift (I know, face punch)!

She decides to buy a new AC/furnace. She is quoted $5500, she says yes, they come and install everything and it is $7500. WTF

She comes over today, for Mother's Day, and she pulls into the driveway in a brand new 2018 Toyota 4 Runner, financed for SEVEN YEARS.

Her ex-husband went on vacation and so she thinks it is only fair that she goes on vacation, so spur of the moment, she books a trip to LA, for a week, over Memorial Day.

I asked her about her finances and she said they were able to pay off all but TWO of their credit cards when they sold their house.

She has been divorced One Week. We found out most of this today.

My MMM side has gone into cardiac arrest.

I tend to eat my feelings. Looks like your step-daughter spends hers. We both need to cut that shit out pronto.

My step-daughter just got a divorce. They sold their house and each of them bought their own house.

Step-daughter bought a fixer upper. She took her father thru the house and showed him everything it needs; he comes home and wants to help her out financially. We finally agree to give her $3000 for a house-warming gift (I know, face punch)!

She decides to buy a new AC/furnace. She is quoted $5500, she says yes, they come and install everything and it is $7500. WTF

She comes over today, for Mother's Day, and she pulls into the driveway in a brand new 2018 Toyota 4 Runner, financed for SEVEN YEARS.

Her ex-husband went on vacation and so she thinks it is only fair that she goes on vacation, so spur of the moment, she books a trip to LA, for a week, over Memorial Day.

I asked her about her finances and she said they were able to pay off all but TWO of their credit cards when they sold their house.

First of all - I'm totally for renting a house in some scenarios. Like when you're young, and you may want to stay flexible because you might meet the man/woman/whatever(s) of your dreams and may want to move in together, or when you know that your education or career might take you elsewhere, sometime soon and thus you don't want to be tied to one place. Or when you just don't have the financial cushion yet that a homeowner should have to deal with emergencies...

That said, MIL and FIL have rented their house (the same house) for 50 years now and are still renting it. We bought a house last October (40% down, low mortgage interest rate) and told them about some of the hassle of having people over to fix stuff for us (yes yes, very un-Mustachean...).

MIL: I'm so glad that we're renting! It's so expensive to buy! And all the hassle!

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

First of all - I'm totally for renting a house in some scenarios. Like when you're young, and you may want to stay flexible because you might meet the man/woman/whatever(s) of your dreams and may want to move in together, or when you know that your education or career might take you elsewhere, sometime soon and thus you don't want to be tied to one place. Or when you just don't have the financial cushion yet that a homeowner should have to deal with emergencies...

That said, MIL and FIL have rented their house (the same house) for 50 years now and are still renting it. We bought a house last October (40% down, low mortgage interest rate) and told them about some of the hassle of having people over to fix stuff for us (yes yes, very un-Mustachean...).

MIL: I'm so glad that we're renting! It's so expensive to buy! And all the hassle!

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

You don't think they would have spent $6k a year on upkeep and taxes if they had owned it?

First of all - I'm totally for renting a house in some scenarios. Like when you're young, and you may want to stay flexible because you might meet the man/woman/whatever(s) of your dreams and may want to move in together, or when you know that your education or career might take you elsewhere, sometime soon and thus you don't want to be tied to one place. Or when you just don't have the financial cushion yet that a homeowner should have to deal with emergencies...

That said, MIL and FIL have rented their house (the same house) for 50 years now and are still renting it. We bought a house last October (40% down, low mortgage interest rate) and told them about some of the hassle of having people over to fix stuff for us (yes yes, very un-Mustachean...).

MIL: I'm so glad that we're renting! It's so expensive to buy! And all the hassle!

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

You don't think they would have spent $6k a year on upkeep and taxes if they had owned it?

$500 euro a month for a house is a fantastic deal. I don't know if taxes and upkeep and other things are automatically included but if it is then if I can get a similar offer here in the States I'll sell my house and rent.

You don't think they would have spent $6k a year on upkeep and taxes if they had owned it?

Taxes on homes, community taxes and things like sewage and garbage removal are calculated & taxed differently here in the Netherlands. So for them, that comes on top of the rent, just as it comes on top of our mortgage for us. And to be fair, their taxes would be a bit lower than ours, like 20% lower or so, due to the fact that they're not the owner of the house. Oh, by the way, that rent would also be excluding utilities.

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didn’t) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150k€, and this doesn’t even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didnít) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150kÄ, and this doesnít even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

I'm living quite happily in a broom closet that's currently valued at around 150k, 130 when we bought it. Terraced home, 75m2, 60 m2 garden, 3 bedrooms, Ä300 mortgage, very central location in a big city in NL. We were very lucky, but these kind of gems can still be found every now and then.

If you haven't spent 20 years on a social housing waiting list it's hard to find places with a rent lower than your mortgage would be though. Studio's and one bedroom apartments in my city can easily cost Ä800-Ä1000. That's what you'd pay for a 250-300k mortgage. We paid Ä800 (incl. utilities, excl. taxes) in 2011 for the top floor of a single family home and the only reason our rent didn't rise from that is because I threatened the landlord to call in the local council to check if it was safe to live in. The single best financial decision we have ever made was to move from there to our current place. We broke even within 2 years and a year from there we're Ä10k ahead compared to our previous home.

I recently did advise a friend to stay in her rented home: large terraced home, they've put in quite a lot of work so it's really lovely, they have a large garden, nice neighbours, one of the nicest streets in town. They pay Ä400 or something. Similar homes are 300k in their town. They're a single income family and if you live in social housing your rent is subsidized when your income gets lower. I don't see why they would take the risk of buying when they're in such a good place now. They're on the fence, they love their current home but their parents tell them they "should" buy. I wouldn't do it if I was her - or at the very least, save up a lot of cash and wait until the next downturn.

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didn’t) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150k€, and this doesn’t even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

I'm living quite happily in a broom closet that's currently valued at around 150k, 130 when we bought it. Terraced home, 75m2, 60 m2 garden, 3 bedrooms, €300 mortgage, very central location in a big city in NL. We were very lucky, but these kind of gems can still be found every now and then.

Wow, that’s a great find. I wouldn’t call it a broom closet, though, unless you’re a family of 4 or more.

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didnít) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150kÄ, and this doesnít even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

I'm living quite happily in a broom closet that's currently valued at around 150k, 130 when we bought it. Terraced home, 75m2, 60 m2 garden, 3 bedrooms, Ä300 mortgage, very central location in a big city in NL. We were very lucky, but these kind of gems can still be found every now and then.

Wow, thatís a great find. I wouldnít call it a broom closet, though, unless youíre a family of 4 or more.

No, it's perfect for 2 (and hopefully 3 in the future). Friends are upgrading to large Vinex type houses and think it's a bit strange that we stay here but we love it. The trick for us was to look into housing corporations selling off homes they can't afford to keep. Some people think they're all terrible, but if you keep your eyes open you might find a good deal in a nice location, even in big cities.

Don't google it, I ended up watching a documentary on Bijlmermeer and Dutch attempts at planning utopias... It's too easy to fall down rabbitholes on the internet.

:D

Vinex is the name of a law that allowed for large, centrally planned housing developments. They were supposed to be a cheap solution for the housing shortage, but these days those houses are quite expensive.

...Vinex is the name of a law that allowed for large, centrally planned housing developments. They were supposed to be a cheap solution for the housing shortage, but these days those houses are quite expensive.

Vinex living has become an aspiration as well as a cliche and is associated with the type of person you were never going to be when you grew up, until you did. A bit like the suburbs in the US.

The examples I have seen south west of Schiphol looked fairly nice; if you can get past all the homes looking very similar. But similar looking homes is SOP in the US... Those I saw were mostly near a town center-ish shopping area where you could walk or bike to a cafe/pub/restaurant; biking and walking paths were everywhere and using them did not feel odd like it does in most of the US.