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Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Do you think that everyone from the Big Ten tournament is from Indy? Of course not. Indy should host the Big Ten tournament not because it's a great sports town (I used to believe it was, but I've changed my mind), but because it has a perfect set-up:

b). The best basketball arena in the country.
c). The best basketball arena in the country located DOWNTOWN. Although Chicago's downtown is 100x better than Indy's, the United Center is not located in the middle of the city.
d). Headquarters of the NCAA (an obvious factor)
e). A compact downtown with plenty of hotels, bars, and restaurants (and unfortunately, abundance of chain restaurants which offer safe dining options), and a full scale mall. On a free day, you could walk from your hotel to plenty of monuments/memorials, visit the NCAA Hall of Champions, walk the Canal, and eat on Mass Ave.
f). A mall, convention center, and hotels connected via a Skywalk system incase it's too chilly outside.

That's why we're hosting the Big 10 tournament, not because we're a great sports town.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Before anyone starts running around blathering about the Trail Blazers...Remember, luck played a major factor into their rebuild.

One of the wealthiest men on earth as an owner. His ability and desire to get rid of certain players expediated a crummy situation.

Major league luck in the draft with BOTH Oden and Aldridge. Remember, Portland by probability were suppose to draft 6th, not first.

Just for the record:

The Blazers didn't get "lucky" in the 2006 draft to get Aldridge. In fact, they were UNLUCKY. They had the worst record in the league and wound up with the #4 pick in the draft, the worst possible lottery scenario. Nobody cried for them when this happened.

They moved up to #2 in a trade with Chicago. Call them lucky for John Paxson being a moron.

Then they traded Sebastian Telfair and took on an extra year of Raef Lafrentz's contract (and traded away Theo Ratliff who expiries a year earlier) to get Brandon Roy. Definitely took the owner's wallet to do that, but took some good GMing as well.

They also drafted Travis Outlaw, a relatively unknown highschooler in 2003, with a pick in the 20's.

The Blazers still have not cut Darius Miles. He's still on their roster and they haven't bought him out. The guys they've bought out have been Shawn Kemp and Steve Francis (who had a shorter deal than Zach Randolph).

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Detroit had the brawl happen right in there very own stands and they have the best attendance in the league. That was the worst incident to ever happen in the league right in their own building but it obviously hasn't prevented their fans from coming back.

Umm - because the league and the media all perceive Detroit pretty much as blameless? Because many Detroit fans deep down actually LIKE the idea that a fight of that proportion occurred (and I've had direct conversations with specific Detroit fans fitting this mold)?

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

If you were a player , you would get pumped, and play not only with more enthusiasm, but with all your heart

Rather than surmising about a hypothetical "you," let's talk about the real Pacers. David Harrison -- who as of today is on the Pacers roster -- regularly gets stoned on illegal drugs. He isn't even willing to stay clean -- what chance is there of his ever playing with all his heart? I think he stated pretty clearly during his interview after the suspension that he prefers NBA journeymanship+marijuana to self-discipline+potential stardom.

Kemo, your point is well taken, and I think most of us who who criticize the bad guys on the Pacers team yearn for the day when Foster, Granger, Dunleavy, Diener, Rush, Murphy, Owens, Graham and a few other good guys are the face of the Pacers. But that day has not arrived yet.

Last edited by Putnam; 03-11-2008 at 06:25 PM.

And I won't be here to see the dayIt all dries up and blows awayI'd hang around just to seeBut they never had much use for meIn Levelland. (James McMurtry)

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

I usually hate whenever anyone uses the race card - but if you don't think race is an issue in the way people feel about the NBA in this city - then you haven't lived here very long. Indianapolis has never been an NBA city, sure they were a pacers city for a few years, but this city has never "bought into" the NBA - and yes race is an issue in that.

Why the heck did Indy support those ABA teams? Why have Indy fans supported the NBA Pacers all these years? It is an issue but that is a smoke screen for what is really wrong with
the Pacers currently. Plus this town is really only able to handle WELL one professional team.
Two teams really put the strain on what fans are willing to spend. Throw in all the other factors at play as Geez said and you have what you have.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Umm - because the league and the media all perceive Detroit pretty much as blameless? Because many Detroit fans deep down actually LIKE the idea that a fight of that proportion occurred (and I've had direct conversations with specific Detroit fans fitting this mold)?

So the reason Detroit fans go to their games is because of the way the media makes them feel about the brawl and that a lot of their fans inherently like what happened?

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

The Blazers didn't get "lucky" in the 2006 draft to get Aldridge. In fact, they were UNLUCKY. They had the worst record in the league and wound up with the #4 pick in the draft, the worst possible lottery scenario. Nobody cried for them when this happened.

They moved up to #2 in a trade with Chicago. Call them lucky for John Paxson being a moron. As I said, Aldridge and Oden...Luck, indeed!!!

Then they traded Sebastian Telfair and took on an extra year of Raef Lafrentz's contract (and traded away Theo Ratliff who expiries a year earlier) to get Brandon Roy. Definitely took the owner's wallet to do that, but took some good GMing as well.

They also drafted Travis Outlaw, a relatively unknown highschooler in 2003, with a pick in the 20's.

The Blazers still have not cut Darius Miles. He's still on their roster and they haven't bought him out. The guys they've bought out have been Shawn Kemp and Steve Francis (who had a shorter deal than Zach Randolph).

I agree that the Blazers had some very good GM'ing happen, but when you have an owner that isn't willing to be hamstrung by the luxary tax to fix the team... Being a great GM is a little easier (unless your name is Isiah Thomas). That is just bad GM'ing with a wealthy owner.

My thought was, even if K. P. was our GM, I don't know if we would get the same results because of where the owner is with spending more money when we are this far away. I know the Simons spent when we were close and before the Luxary Tax, but we are far away and now there is the Tax.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

I agree that the Blazers had some very good GM'ing happen, but when you have an owner that isn't willing to be hamstrung by the luxary tax to fix the team... Being a great GM is a little easier (unless your name is Isiah Thomas). That is just bad GM'ing with a wealthy owner.

A GM making trades with other teams isn't simply luck. It's finding a trade that another team is willing to do, which is a skill. When they traded up to get Aldridge, John Paxson was a smart guy and Chicago knew what they were doing and knew who they wanted.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Ya know?? MAYBE... JUST MAYBE if our Indiana Pacers had a packed Conseco Fieldhouse , or at LEAST a good attendance cheering them on... MAYBE they WOULD WIN ALOT MORE GAMES .. Matter of fact.. I can guarantee they would win more games, even with the injuries that have befallen this team..

DID ANYONE OF YOU EVER STOP TO CONSIDER THAT?!?!

I mean seriously think about this from a player's perspective for a minute..
If you were a player , you would get pumped, and play not only with more enthusiasm, but with all your heart , if you had 10,000 screaming fans helping you through these tough times (with the injuries) at our own damn homecourt..
As it is right now we HAVE NO HOMECOURT ADVANTAGE... zero , zilch , zip.. (ok well , maybe being used to their own basketball rims) but that is it!!..

Once I get back to working in the next week or so , I am gonna try my damndest to at the very least to go to a few games... and support MY hometeam.. Granted there are a few players I really don't like all that much , and one player ( Tinsley ) that I can't stand seeing stinking it up on the court like he tends to do 65% of the time.. But I love watching Dunleavy , Granger , Foster , Diener and Rush play.. If I could afford it I would have at least some partial season tickets.. But since I can't right now, I am still gonna stick up for the guys that ARE TRYING, and support OUR TEAM... through thick and thin... I would be heartbroken if the Pacer's left Indy because of the fair-weather fans , who have the audacity to call themselves Indiana Pacer's fans... turning their back on these guys who don't get no hometown love, when the chips are down... Then these same "fans" will cry cause we no longer have an NBA team anymore.. wondering why

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

OK this is how I see it. And I had 4 season tix 4 rows from the floor at the 3 pt line during the 80's....the 80's for Pete's sake, There are a ton of reasons the fans fail to show up to the games now...but as sated earlier, that doesn't mean they aren't watching. I can watch from the compfort of my Barkolounger and not have to shell out $300/game (if I take the family, which they don't even watch at home so why take em?) that doesn't mean I'm not interested, only pragmatic.

But here's the problem...and I am prolly more dogmatic that most about the P's...

If the Pacers left Indy today, I would never watch another NBA game. at least not until another team moved here...and that wouldn't be long IMO. I'm a Pacer fan...NOT an NBA fan and I'm 100% convinced that is true of most "fans" in Indy.

If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

You know what? This whole subject is really starting to me off!

If I decide I don't want to pay to watch a team play that's my prerogative. It doesn't mean I'm not a real sports fan.

I quit getting Pacers season tickets because Reggie retired and the team was raising the price my ticket to a level I didn't think was worth paying in relation to the enjoyment I was getting out of going to the games. (And that was when the team was good.)

But a real pro sports town wouldn't give up on them like Indy has. If nothing else, fans would show up just to boo 'em.

What kind of BS is that?!

As I recall when Stephen Jackson was here and he was getting booed people were raising a big stink about it. Now we're supposed to go to games and boo? I don't know about anyone else but I'm not spending $3.45/gallon on gas plus the price of a ticket just so I can go boo at a team. Not when I can stay at home and watch IUPUI and Butler play in their tournament final games. Heck, these days I'd rather go watch a high school team play than watch an NBA team.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Yet I only hear the word referenced to black players, and recently black people. I take offense to it because it's being used like it's the new 'N' word, not for it's true meaning. Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, Marquis Daniels, and recently Shawne Williams have all been called thugs. Going by the words definition I don't see them as thugs. Lacking judgement, hard headed, troublesome, idiot, etc. ok, that's a good definition of them. But thug is definitely not.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Do you think that everyone from the Big Ten tournament is from Indy? Of course not. Indy should host the Big Ten tournament not because it's a great sports town (I used to believe it was, but I've changed my mind), but because it has a perfect set-up:

b). The best basketball arena in the country.
c). The best basketball arena in the country located DOWNTOWN. Although Chicago's downtown is 100x better than Indy's, the United Center is not located in the middle of the city.
d). Headquarters of the NCAA (an obvious factor)
e). A compact downtown with plenty of hotels, bars, and restaurants (and unfortunately, abundance of chain restaurants which offer safe dining options), and a full scale mall. On a free day, you could walk from your hotel to plenty of monuments/memorials, visit the NCAA Hall of Champions, walk the Canal, and eat on Mass Ave.
f). A mall, convention center, and hotels connected via a Skywalk system incase it's too chilly outside.

That's why we're hosting the Big 10 tournament, not because we're a great sports town.

It seems to me these things help make the case FOR Indianapolis being a good sports town.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Yet I only hear the word referenced to black players, and recently black people. I take offense to it because it's being used like it's the new 'N' word, not for it's true meaning. Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, Marquis Daniels, and recently Shawne Williams have all been called thugs. Going by the words definition I don't see them as thugs. Lacking judgement, hard headed, troublesome, idiot, etc. ok, that's a good definition of them. But thug is definitely not.

Funny part is that when I was younger, a "thug" in terms of basketball was an enforcer/dirty player. It was interchangable with "goon" or "hack". Rick Mahorn was a thug. Maurice Lucas. Jeff Ruland. Bill Laimbeer.

Now, however, there's a new, nastier connotation, and I do agree with those who say it has racial undertones. I think it's a broad brush that gets used too easily these days.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Well, I guess I could say "those *** holes who keep getting in trouble with the law." It's just easier to say "thug" (plus thug makes it through the bad word filter). It's not my fault those who keep getting in trouble happen to be African-American.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

You have to ask why the Pacers are LAST in the NBA in attendance when they are not the smallest market and not even close to the worst record.

Some conveniently explain this away by stereotyping Indiana fans as being some monolithic mass that can be characterized as fickle fans. That's grasping a false conclusion to avoid the truth.

Again, the truth is, it's both. Why isn't the same being said of other cities? What about Memphis? How in the world is their attendance significantly higher than the Pacers?

The truth is, sharing the Pacers with a friend is like sharing a disease. Sharing the Pacers with a client is equivalent to losing your client. Sharing the Pacers with your children is child abuse. At least, that's the reputation...and it does matter to *SOME* people....both when they decide to spend their entertainment dollars...and when they decide to buy merchandise.

Now, losing probably still accounts for 70-80% of the attendance drop....but that extra 20-30% is worth a solid 1000 fans...which would make all the difference in the world.........

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Well, I guess I could say "those *** holes who keep getting in trouble with the law." It's just easier to say "thug" (plus thug makes it through the bad word filter). It's not my fault those who keep getting in troulbe happen to be African-American.

Did anyone call Chris Andersen a thug? Jason Williams? What about what Darko Milicic said in the summer olympics about the ref in one of the games he played in. Did anyone call him a thug after that? You're right that it's the African-Americans are the main ones getting in trouble, and in a mostly African-American league odds are that if you have a bunch of people getting in trouble that you'd have to look in the African-American direction. That's not a good thing, but it's the truth and I'm fine with that truth. The only thing that bothers me is the word that's being used to describe those players.

I remember back the year of the brawl when we were playing the Orlando Magic on TNT a week or so after the brawl. During halftime, Charles Barkley brought up the exact use of the word I'm talking about now and how it has some racial undertones. Kenny Smith kept nodding their heads agreeing with Charles. Maybe it's an argument only black people can really understand.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Funny part is that when I was younger, a "thug" in terms of basketball was an enforcer/dirty player. It was interchangable with "goon" or "hack". Rick Mahorn was a thug. Maurice Lucas. Jeff Ruland. Bill Laimbeer.

I resent you calling all these black guys thugs. That's racist. I resent all those people that call Danny Granger a thug, and David Robinson, and James Jones--man, all the people that so unfairly called him a thug for carrying around a bible all the time.

And that Jason Williams kid down in Miami. It's racist to call him a thug.

Just cut out all the racism, you guys. It's just not right!

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Yet I only hear the word referenced to black players, and recently black people. I take offense to it because it's being used like it's the new 'N' word, not for it's true meaning. Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, Marquis Daniels, and recently Shawne Williams have all been called thugs. Going by the words definition I don't see them as thugs. Lacking judgement, hard headed, troublesome, idiot, etc. ok, that's a good definition of them. But thug is definitely not.

I think most people are using the term as a synonym for "criminal".

Personally, I simply don't make a connection with race at all. I may have used the term before, but it's not commonly used in my arsenal of slams. Now, I do think that the term "gangsta" has racial connotations....

IMO, regardless of the term, that definition applies to some of our players based on their own actions. For example, Jackson fits that definition at Club Rio. Tinsley is facing an felony intimidation charge. Both guys are fairly young and facing criminal charges involving aggression/violence. So, thug is a perfect definition here and it could just be that people are using this definition.

BTW, how do you explain the poster who loves Granger or Reggie and calls Jackson and Tinsley thugs? Is he a racist? Or is he sick of off court incidents? Seriously, I doubt people are using the term the way you think they are. In any event, I will refrain from using that word here just to be civil.

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Did anyone call Chris Andersen a thug? Jason Williams? What about what Darko Milicic said in the summer olympics about the ref in one of the games he played in. Did anyone call him a thug after that? You're right that it's the African-Americans are the main ones getting in trouble, and in a mostly African-American league odds are that if you have a bunch of people getting in trouble that you'd have to look in the African-American direction. That's not a good thing, but it's the truth and I'm fine with that truth. The only thing that bothers me is the word that's being used to describe those players.

I remember back the year of the brawl when we were playing the Orlando Magic on TNT a week or so after the brawl. During halftime, Charles Barkley brought up the exact use of the word I'm talking about now and how it has some racial undertones. Kenny Smith kept nodding their heads agreeing with Charles. Maybe it's an argument only black people can really understand.

Chris Anderson seems like he deserves the label...but did he do anything violent. I think the term connotes violence along with illegality. In any event, he deserves to be called a criminal...