I actually hope this becomes true 100% of the time in SoO because losing 20+ people to Durumu's maze-phase and then wiping due to the last healer being OoM is just a really, really strange feeling on the third attempt in an LFR run.

Blizzard said the damage and boss health would be nerfed but the mechanics will be the same. If there's something that 1 shots you in normal it will do so in flex.

PlayerA: Guys me and my 6 buddies are doing the achieves, since we're tanks and healers you don't get a say.
(Insert protesting and agreeing from other various players)
(Proceed wiping because people don't want to do it, do it wrong, or the achievement was missed so a wipe is forced for a do-over)

Please do not ever in LFR no never. I'm saying this as a LFR hero.

I actually had this happen to me in ToES LFR last week. Had a healer with a few friends from the same realm / guild in the group and they said they were going to do the first boss in the achievement order, so we would all get the achievement. I linked it and asked them to point out where in the description it said LFR was part of it, was then told to shut the fuck up because I was a noob who had no idea about the game and should uninstall. One wipe later, vote kicks go out to all those who were part of the achievement group from, however, they weren't successful because there were too many of them to kick. It was a nightmare, but the rest of the run was quite fun, being able to chastise and troll the shit out of them. They were quite embarrassed about their inability to be able to read.

You people that think anyone else might be interested in doing YOUR achievement in a 5-man, Holy Cow, I wish you would play GW2 or SWTOR or something, seriously I hear they are awesome games.

GW2 *is* an awesome game. And the dungeon achieves are centered around individual performance, so you can get them while pugging without harassing other people. E.g. completing a boss without you personally getting zapped by a laser, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like WoW (I play both games), but I find your snarky sarcasm a bit ironic.

OT: As an LFR guy (due mainly to an inability to guarantee a time that I'm available to play), I vote absolutely no achieves in LFR - it would never work and would break the one thing LFR is actually good for: a quick jaunt through the "story". Flex is just a different way to raid - why on earth would you NOT have achieves in it? They're putting in flex for a number of reasons, including for groups that otherwise couldn't raid normal (and not just due to skill level). They give people something to shoot for. The vast majority of players are not top 1% heroic progression raiders, thus it makes far more sense to add faux content to areas of the game that more people will experience.

If they allow for completion in flex then they can put some more thought into the achievements, instead of making them either ridiculously difficult or impossible on heroic (Ji-Kun) or so easy that you just randomly happened to get it (Jin-rokh). It also broadens the audience that will have access to the meta mounts, and likely helps to pull more players into raiding.

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Didn't Blizzard state in a blue post that the reason they implemented raid achievements in flex mode was because no one is actually doing them in this expansion? I'm sure I read that somewhere. If that's the case, why not expand it more so more people do them?

At what point, at what difficulty or amount of damage is it real raiding.
At what damage threshold is an ability meaningful, and when is it not.
Cut out the arrogant "real raiding" nonsense, since that is simply an opinion.
LFR has lower difficulty due to the randomness and lack of control over the participating members.
The ability to ensure certain roles, certain specs, certain buffs.

LFR exists because of arrogant people like that who constantly pushed up the bar, increasing the entry requirements for traditional raiding making it ever harder to break into, and then whining when people consciously choose a watered down, almost trivialised and empty experience because that is more fulfilling than putting up with the drama and elitism that has infected the traditional raiding community.

Therefore the presence of achievements or not is simply a consensus, because there is no number that says an ability is meaningful and then not when it does 1 less damage.
The lack of achievements in LFR could be because of the lack of control, in that you cannot specifically opt to take on people interested or at least willing to work on that achievement.
At least normal, heroic and flex allow control over all the members, none of them being randomly picked by some computer somewhere.
Given the non-fixed difficulty or non-fixed numbers in flex, you have to argue if flex really is the right place for those achievements, and whether they should have remained in normal and heroic only.

Didn't Blizzard state in a blue post that the reason they implemented raid achievements in flex mode was because no one is actually doing them in this expansion? I'm sure I read that somewhere. If that's the case, why not expand it more so more people do them?

The chaos and contention and hatred that would result from introducing raid achievements into LFR, you want that, why?

They are allowing achievements in flex because they want people to do flex, and this is one way of that happening. As for the meta achievement... I do think it waters it down big time, the mount from it will likely turn into the new bronze drake... oh well lol.

They are allowing achievements in flex because they want people to do flex, and this is one way of that happening. As for the meta achievement... I do think it waters it down big time, the mount from it will likely turn into the new bronze drake... oh well lol.

Ok I want to add something that hopefully clarifies everything. I DO NOT AGREE THAT HEROIC RAIDERS SHOULD ONLY GET BETTER GEAR AS A REWARD. I do want to be a special snowflake, I want to have something that shows that I was able to finish content when it was current(like the mounts being removed when a new tier of raiding is introduced, I wold love that). HOWEVER:

I had a big issue with removing Heroic Kills requirement from the achievement... but then I realized: "Shit... this is going to be forever here... it doesn't really matter... people will solo it in 6 months. The only thing that shows will be the date on it and that doesn't really matter if it's 1 week after the tier is over or 2 years. It just doesn't matter"

The mounts were never hard to get in the first place! They were inconvenient to get.

The current issue with the achievements is as follows:
Some of the are impossible or close to impossible to be done on Heroic.
That means that you will have to kill 1-2 bosses on normal.
That at the moment means you lose 1 week of killing Lei Shen and Ra-den.
You have to bring the same 10 people for ALL OF THE ACHIEVEMENTS or you will have to lose another week for just 1 guy.
Let's say (everyone does this) you have more than 10/25 people... because set-ups, because people are unreliable... now what are you going to do? Are you only going to do the achievement for 10 people and then stop?
That also means you will lose gear from those bosses. A 10-man guild doesn't afford to lose that time while the content is current unless they are in the first few guilds in the world. You simply can't skip 1 or 2 weeks of HC boss kills because you will lose too much "POTENTIAL" gear. We had weeks without a single guy getting upgrades, we gained ~2 average ilvls in more than 1 month killing at least 10 HC bosses.

There is no point for "middle ground" guilds to do achievements in the current tier. We decided to just get the heroic kills, get gear for a good start in the next tier and do the achievements some time next tier. Easy as that.
There's very few people actually bothering with them at the moment. Flex has a separate lock, guilds progressing through normal, guilds progressing through Heroic, guilds farming Heroic, they will all be able to also get the achievements while they are current without impacting their progress at all. You will be able to get most people the achievement in 1 week... and if not? You'll be able to do it again next week without any impact on your progress.

After I actually used my brain a little, I realized this is probably the best idea on how to handle achievements.

1)At what point, at what difficulty or amount of damage is it real raiding.
2)At what damage threshold is an ability meaningful, and when is it not.
3)Cut out the arrogant "real raiding" nonsense, since that is simply an opinion.
4)LFR has lower difficulty due to the randomness and lack of control over the participating members.
The ability to ensure certain roles, certain specs, certain buffs.

5)LFR exists because of arrogant people like that who constantly pushed up the bar, increasing the entry requirements for traditional raiding making it ever harder to break into, and then whining when people consciously choose a watered down, almost trivialised and empty experience because that is more fulfilling than putting up with the drama and elitism that has infected the traditional raiding community.

6)Therefore the presence of achievements or not is simply a consensus, because there is no number that says an ability is meaningful and then not when it does 1 less damage.
7)The lack of achievements in LFR could be because of the lack of control, in that you cannot specifically opt to take on people interested or at least willing to work on that achievement.
8)At least normal, heroic and flex allow control over all the members, none of them being randomly picked by some computer somewhere.
Given the non-fixed difficulty or non-fixed numbers in flex, you have to argue if flex really is the right place for those achievements, and whether they should have remained in normal and heroic only.

1)If you are looking for something, you by definition don't have it (yet) or haven't found it, hence looking for raid cant be considered raiding as you spend your entire time in said instance looking for something.
2)Abilities that are designed to kill you if you don't react accordingly, are there for that very purpose= making you aware of the mechanics and the way to counter them. Tortos' breath is one of those, it is a "interrupt me or die" mechanic, which instead of regular player based interrupts depends on using adds to do so. The ability to live through it without any heals on lfr, without interrupting it makes the entire ability pointless. Similarly the DA golem handling gets butchered on lfr because the small adds no longer gain the dmg and speed buff when stacked and the anima flows in random directions instead of proximity, thereby making the fights intentions= logistics, obsolete.
3) likewise your view on lfr being raiding is an ignorant opinion
4) Sending grown ups to a kindergarten is providing lower difficulty material, and unless those grown ups have some severe mental defect, i highly doubt you can considder it as educational for them
5)Traditional raiding= classic style, there was only normal, good luck beating lucifron back then without handling the curse properly, or beating magmadar without the hunter tome (obtained @ lucifron) to remove the enrage effect. Similarly dwarf priests as alliance or shamans as horde were required to counter the fear. Aswell as there being several resist based fights. By the way have fun with a classic style geddon bomb. Not to mention the rune dowsing requiring a reputation to be raised to obtain the dowsing item to begin with. Are you sure you want traditional raiding back? Have fun being stuck on the 1st few bosses and being unable to clear the place unless you gathered the required gear/items.
6)Depends on the type of dmg source, lets take a look @ falldmg, which in some fights has been used as a center point for abilities (archimondes "throw in the air" for example) if the falldmg would do your max hp-1 as maximum dmg, and the fight has no unavoidable aoe shortly afterwards, then yes that 1 dmg diff would make the ability trivial, and thereby the way to counter it (the slow fall item provided in said instance)
7) answered in part 1
8) agreeing on that part, in addition to those modes being the actual raid and not something you keep looking for but never find. At leased you are competing against the foe in a reasonable state. LFR=Sleep depraved Usain Bolt with his feet tied together and under the effect of anesthesia, Flex=tired Usain Bolt without warm-up, Normal=Usain without warm-up, Heroic= Usain pumped for a competition

I like the idea. So many times we have raiders who are on but just won't play those old raids to get achieves. Now with flex after we've finished the encounter on normal mode we probably can go back and simply do the easier version, snag a few more pieces of gear, and get some cheevs along the way.

As a hardcore raider I like it. Normal shares a lockout with heroic, so it's not really an option for doing achievements in current content. In the past when we've wanted to do achievements, we've had to take a week off farming heroic and miss out on gear to do them, and generally a few people in the raid want them and others don't. This means we can ignore achievements and people who want to can pug them in flex at their leisure.

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