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I'll admit, when I first got wind of the details of TESO, I was pissed and thought "Insta-Fail."

I had got it in my head that I'd be playing Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind but with others running around. Seeing the screens and hearing about turn based combat instantly turned me off.

Then I tried thinking about it in a different way. Maybe it won't be a BAD game if it does certain things right and gives you an Elder Scrolls feel to it as well.

Rules they can't break or it's going to fail big time:

Gear grinds through Tiers.

Small, instanced zones that break apart Tamriel (Think SWTOR)

Quest Hubs

The NEED to raid to participate and be successful in PvP (gear issue again)

Skill rotations.

Complicated gear stats

The lack of natural grouping

'Competing' in PvE.

I know that the initial shock of how DIFFERENT gameplay wise ESO will be than single player ES games is hard to shake, but that doesn't mean that this can't turn out to be a GOOD mmorpg. Now that I've thought about it a bit, got over the fact that I'm not playing Skyrim online, there is potential for this to be a really good MMORPG. Yeah, it won't rattle the world by being 100% different than WoW, but as long as they are smart about innovating within the genre and taking a hard look at what sucks in MMOs and remove it, this will be a good game.

About the bullet points. Gear grinds are horrible. I know that in TES lore there is magical gear that you wear to improve yourself as an adventurer. That needs to be in the game. But gear that provides so much power that someone with more skill but less gear stats loses every time to them should never exist. I hope Matt Froir (or whatever the DAoC dev's name is) learned from his mistakes with ToA. That expansion alone killed DAoC.

If they split off Tamriel into tiny zones that have multiple instances, that will kill the epic feel of the Elder Scrolls universe. I am most worried about this point because of the Hero engine, and SWTOR felt VERY small, despite the fact that it's span reached multiple planets. When I imagined myself playing SWTOR before it came out, I was thinking there would be multiple, HUGE planets to explore and that made me giddy. Turns out they were tiny, instanced zones, and that sucked really bad. I know that technological limitations will keep games from being completely open world for a long time, so splitting the game up between provinces and cities with a loading screen is fine. But damnit, if when I'm running across Skyrim in ESO, it shouldn't be broken down in load screens, and should be just like running through Skyrim in TESV.

One of the things I love about TES games is how natural, rewarding, and awesome questing is. If MMOs always featured quests like the ones in TES games, the quest era in MMOs wouldn't be stale like it is now. From what I read, there aren't quest hubs in this game which is great. But participating in the open world quests with other players better be natural, with equal rewards, and without forced grouping. It should be a lot like GW2.

The 3 faction PvP in ESO is what first caught my eye. As I mentioned before, ToA killed DAoC with it's need to participate in PvE trials and farm artifacts to stay relevant. Here's some obvious advice to developers that they seem to forget: PvPers want to PvP, not PvE then PvP. If I have to go do X raid to get X sword to not be at a major disadvantage in PvP, then forget it. This goes for stupid, pointless stats like TOR had with expertise. Keep it to +health, +magicka, +stamina, +carryweight, and resists, just like Skyrim.

Skill rotations, which were developed so retards could play MMOs, need to die. If Skyrim's combat is not going to be in ESO, then it needs to be like GW2. I played 30 hours in the BWE, and I've never had as much fun with combat in a game. I don't want ESO to COPY GW2, just like I don't want it to copy WoW, or any other game. But if it is going to be similar to one of those two games, make it GW2, not WoW.

Competeing in PvE. This is another thing that GW2 is getting right. Looks like ESO won't have quest hubs, but that doesn't matter at all if I'm clearing out a dungeon to rescue the hot Breton chick, and as I'm fighting the last mob, some jackass comes and swoops her away from me and gets the credit for the quest. GW2's lack of PvE competition is one of it's biggest assets, where I actually enjoy seeing other players come along. This is how it should be, and if ESO reverts to old competition-based PvE, it's not something that I can overlook now.

Hell, if they can pull this off, this could actually be a really good game. Sure, it won't play or be exactly like Skyrim, but that doesn't mean it's destined to fail. BUT, it has to do a lot right now to not come off as another WoW clone. I hope it will succeed in doing this stuff right, but I won't be buying this game until I know that it does. I'm not getting Biowared again.

Feel free to add, subtract, multiply, divide from what you think ESO has to do right, now that we know it's not Skyrim online, to succeed.

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I'll admit, when I first got wind of the details of TESO, I was pissed and thought "Insta-Fail."

I had got it in my head that I'd be playing Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind but with others running around. Seeing the screens and hearing about turn based combat instantly turned me off.

Then I tried thinking about it in a different way. Maybe it won't be a BAD game if it does certain things right and gives you an Elder Scrolls feel to it as well.

Rules they can't break or it's going to fail big time:

Gear grinds through Tiers.

Small, instanced zones that break apart Tamriel (Think SWTOR)

Quest Hubs

The NEED to raid to participate and be successful in PvP (gear issue again)

Skill rotations.

Complicated gear stats

The lack of natural grouping

'Competing' in PvE.

I know that the initial shock of how DIFFERENT gameplay wise ESO will be than single player ES games is hard to shake, but that doesn't mean that this can't turn out to be a GOOD mmorpg. Now that I've thought about it a bit, got over the fact that I'm not playing Skyrim online, there is potential for this to be a really good MMORPG. Yeah, it won't rattle the world by being 100% different than WoW, but as long as they are smart about innovating within the genre and taking a hard look at what sucks in MMOs and remove it, this will be a good game.

About the bullet points. Gear grinds are horrible. I know that in TES lore there is magical gear that you wear to improve yourself as an adventurer. That needs to be in the game. But gear that provides so much power that someone with more skill but less gear stats loses every time to them should never exist. I hope Matt Froir (or whatever the DAoC dev's name is) learned from his mistakes with ToA. That expansion alone killed DAoC.

If they split off Tamriel into tiny zones that have multiple instances, that will kill the epic feel of the Elder Scrolls universe. I am most worried about this point because of the Hero engine, and SWTOR felt VERY small, despite the fact that it's span reached multiple planets. When I imagined myself playing SWTOR before it came out, I was thinking there would be multiple, HUGE planets to explore and that made me giddy. Turns out they were tiny, instanced zones, and that sucked really bad. I know that technological limitations will keep games from being completely open world for a long time, so splitting the game up between provinces and cities with a loading screen is fine. But damnit, if when I'm running across Skyrim in ESO, it shouldn't be broken down in load screens, and should be just like running through Skyrim in TESV.

One of the things I love about TES games is how natural, rewarding, and awesome questing is. If MMOs always featured quests like the ones in TES games, the quest era in MMOs wouldn't be stale like it is now. From what I read, there aren't quest hubs in this game which is great. But participating in the open world quests with other players better be natural, with equal rewards, and without forced grouping. It should be a lot like GW2.

The 3 faction PvP in ESO is what first caught my eye. As I mentioned before, ToA killed DAoC with it's need to participate in PvE trials and farm artifacts to stay relevant. Here's some obvious advice to developers that they seem to forget: PvPers want to PvP, not PvE then PvP. If I have to go do X raid to get X sword to not be at a major disadvantage in PvP, then forget it. This goes for stupid, pointless stats like TOR had with expertise. Keep it to +health, +magicka, +stamina, +carryweight, and resists, just like Skyrim.

Skill rotations, which were developed so retards could play MMOs, need to die. If Skyrim's combat is not going to be in ESO, then it needs to be like GW2. I played 30 hours in the BWE, and I've never had as much fun with combat in a game. I don't want ESO to COPY GW2, just like I don't want it to copy WoW, or any other game. But if it is going to be similar to one of those two games, make it GW2, not WoW.

Competeing in PvE. This is another thing that GW2 is getting right. Looks like ESO won't have quest hubs, but that doesn't matter at all if I'm clearing out a dungeon to rescue the hot Breton chick, and as I'm fighting the last mob, some jackass comes and swoops her away from me and gets the credit for the quest. GW2's lack of PvE competition is one of it's biggest assets, where I actually enjoy seeing other players come along. This is how it should be, and if ESO reverts to old competition-based PvE, it's not something that I can overlook now.

Hell, if they can pull this off, this could actually be a really good game. Sure, it won't play or be exactly like Skyrim, but that doesn't mean it's destined to fail. BUT, it has to do a lot right now to not come off as another WoW clone. I hope it will succeed in doing this stuff right, but I won't be buying this game until I know that it does. I'm not getting Biowared again.

Feel free to add, subtract, multiply, divide from what you think ESO has to do right, now that we know it's not Skyrim online, to succeed.

You'd have a point if TOA actually killed DAOC (it didn't, subscribers increased) and you actually didn't have to PVE before TOA to PvP (you did, be it for gold, crafting, or in SI times, frankly better weapons then anything crafted you could make)

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Originally posted by Xsorus

Originally posted by reap3rzx

-snip-

You'd have a point if TOA actually killed DAOC (it didn't, subscribers increased) and you actually didn't have to PVE before TOA to PvP (you did, be it for gold, crafting, or in SI times, frankly better weapons then anything crafted you could make)

Obviously, in the short term, ToA increased sales of DAoC. The PvE portion of ToA was actually really cool. The Trials were very fun raids.

The main draw of DAoC though was always RvR. When players started to realize that those PvE clowns in their shiny artis were wasting them even though they had higher RR they started to get pissed. Or, the fact that ToA became a required expansion to keep up with the power curve kept sales up. In the long run, it frustrated people and did a lot to bleed DAoC's subscribers.

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sorry this game wont be Daoc2 since GW2 is already considered as daoc2 it will have to best GW2 to be Daoc3. Actually TOA was very good pve just too much grind like Aion, bad mistake from the DEV to think they can make ppl stay longer if they make the game more grinding.

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Originally posted by Games888

sorry this game wont be Daoc2 since GW2 is already considered as daoc2 it will have to best GW2 to be Daoc3. Actually TOA was very good pve just too much grind like Aion, bad mistake from the DEV to think they can make ppl stay longer if they make the game more grinding.

if they get rid of the 2 week shuffle and the stupid anominity in pvp. It will be daoc2.

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Originally posted by reap3rzx

Originally posted by Xsorus

Originally posted by reap3rzx

-snip-

You'd have a point if TOA actually killed DAOC (it didn't, subscribers increased) and you actually didn't have to PVE before TOA to PvP (you did, be it for gold, crafting, or in SI times, frankly better weapons then anything crafted you could make)

Obviously, in the short term, ToA increased sales of DAoC. The PvE portion of ToA was actually really cool. The Trials were very fun raids.

The main draw of DAoC though was always RvR. When players started to realize that those PvE clowns in their shiny artis were wasting them even though they had higher RR they started to get pissed. Or, the fact that ToA became a required expansion to keep up with the power curve kept sales up. In the long run, it frustrated people and did a lot to bleed DAoC's subscribers.

PVE clowns in their Shiny Artifacts? other then the fact most high RR players were the first to get the Shiny Artifacts, I can flat out tell you there is no artifact you could get at Low Realm Rank that put you in comparison to me on a High Rank character. Nor could having those Artifacts make you remotely good at PvP. Here is how DAOC worked in balance terms, you had your Class, then your Realm Rank, then Artifacts in terms of what caused ya to win fights. Artifacts went completely out the window in terms of 8v8, as in, I don't care how many artifacts you had, If you sucked at 8v8, You weren't going to kill a good group. Here is an example of how much Artifacts didn't make a difference, You could take an Enchanter, give him fully player crafted gear at the time, make him RR10, and put him against say a RR1 Thane, with Artifacts out the ass, and the Enchanter would absolutely kill that thane 100% of the time with Zero Effort.

TOA had nothing to do with the bleeding of Subscribers, that came from the thing called WoW, which damn near killed every Fantasy MMO on the market at the time.

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+1, good post, good idea. I am honestly going to do this now; imagine it as DAoC 2. With the elder scrolls IP behind it, DAoC 2 is sure to be a success! :-)

After I saw ESO three faction pvp for 2013 - I immediately forgot about every other title on the market. What is ever going to compare to Elder Scrolls Lore, Elder Scrolls real medieval graphics (no silly cartoons or anime races and classes), and finally, pvp with three factions - FFS...finally.

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I don't object to a DAoC 2, I just object to the wasted opportunity for a Skyrim style sandbox mmo. The mmo world needed that more than DAaC 2, which we will get elements of in GW2, TSW and PS2 anyway.

A massive loss is not made up for by a smaller win, not with a constant reminder of that massive loss in the game's title.

This bizarre hybrid of DAoC pvp with TES lore may suit some people, but it wasn’t what most of us expected, wanted or felt the industry needed. It’s premature to see all that much positive in this, but we know more than enough to see that so many elements that defined this IP are abandoned, that is why a mostly negative reaction feels far more appropriate.

And quite frankly some of the attempts to defend this come off as very counter-intuitive, even with my psychology training I cannot understand some people.

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Originally posted by PyrateLVRemember though, that DAOC was a simplified (some say dumbed down) version of EQ.Does that mean TESO is going to be a simplified version of WoW or an even easier version of SWTOR?Because that sounds like a horrible game

I hear that sometimes but since when has EQ a good PvP-System that is even today only matched by not more than one other game?

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

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Originally posted by zevni78

I don't object to a DAoC 2, I just object to the wasted opportunity for a Skyrim style sandbox mmo. The mmo world needed that more than DAaC 2, which we will get elements of in GW2, TSW and PS2 anyway.

A massive loss is not made up for by a smaller win, not with a constant reminder of that massive loss in the game's title.

This bizarre hybrid of DAoC pvp with TES lore may suit some people, but it wasn’t what most of us expected, wanted or felt the industry needed. It’s premature to see all that much positive in this, but we know more than enough to see that so many elements that defined this IP are abandoned, that is why a mostly negative reaction feels far more appropriate.

And quite frankly some of the attempts to defend this come off as very counter-intuitive, even with my psychology training I cannot understand some people.

I agree with you, it is massively disappointing that it's not what we wanted to to be.

There could be plenty of reasons for that though, including current tech.

What I'm trying to do is help people see that, just because this isn't the step we were looking for, it could still be a very good MMO and still stick to what makes Elder Scrolls, Elder Scrolls, which is the sense of getting lost in a massive world and good lore. I'm just trying to say that POV, combat, and that stuff didn't make Elder Scrolls, so there still might be a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every TES game had levels, so it's not surprising that TESO has levels.

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Originally posted by Xsorus

Originally posted by reap3rzx

Originally posted by Xsorus

Originally posted by reap3rzx

-snip-

You'd have a point if TOA actually killed DAOC (it didn't, subscribers increased) and you actually didn't have to PVE before TOA to PvP (you did, be it for gold, crafting, or in SI times, frankly better weapons then anything crafted you could make)

Obviously, in the short term, ToA increased sales of DAoC. The PvE portion of ToA was actually really cool. The Trials were very fun raids.

The main draw of DAoC though was always RvR. When players started to realize that those PvE clowns in their shiny artis were wasting them even though they had higher RR they started to get pissed. Or, the fact that ToA became a required expansion to keep up with the power curve kept sales up. In the long run, it frustrated people and did a lot to bleed DAoC's subscribers.

PVE clowns in their Shiny Artifacts? other then the fact most high RR players were the first to get the Shiny Artifacts, I can flat out tell you there is no artifact you could get at Low Realm Rank that put you in comparison to me on a High Rank character. Nor could having those Artifacts make you remotely good at PvP. Here is how DAOC worked in balance terms, you had your Class, then your Realm Rank, then Artifacts in terms of what caused ya to win fights. Artifacts went completely out the window in terms of 8v8, as in, I don't care how many artifacts you had, If you sucked at 8v8, You weren't going to kill a good group. Here is an example of how much Artifacts didn't make a difference, You could take an Enchanter, give him fully player crafted gear at the time, make him RR10, and put him against say a RR1 Thane, with Artifacts out the ass, and the Enchanter would absolutely kill that thane 100% of the time with Zero Effort.

TOA had nothing to do with the bleeding of Subscribers, that came from the thing called WoW, which damn near killed every Fantasy MMO on the market at the time.

Way to give a completely unbalanced example. Put two characters at RR10 and give one artifacts while the other just has player made gear. Player with artifacts has a significant advantage. That was the point. It forced people to go PvE when they didn't want to or they would fall behind the curve. You shouldn't be forced to PvE in order to PvP as effectively. Way to have the point go right over your head.

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I'll admit, when I first got wind of the details of TESO, I was pissed and thought "Insta-Fail."

I had got it in my head that I'd be playing Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind but with others running around. Seeing the screens and hearing about turn based combat instantly turned me off.

Then I tried thinking about it in a different way. Maybe it won't be a BAD game if it does certain things right and gives you an Elder Scrolls feel to it as well.

It is not possible for them to give "an ES feel" if its an MMORPG that is nothing more than an TES game online. The moment you start throwing in MMO aspects like dailies, levels, teired gear and add it to the fact there will be no player mods you already changed the game so much that you are basically just taking the TES name, and USING it to create hype and try to sucker in enough TES players into buying the game.

If the game was being made by BETHESDA...

If BETHESDA was making an TES game built around online capabilites...

Then you could have an TES feeling TESO.

All this smacks of taking a beloved series of games and trying to rape MMO players by using its NAME. If it isnt anything like what came before, why USE THE NAME? Just call it something else since its NOTHING like what the players have come to expect.

Hey I know, lets take Dungeons and Dragons and throw out the rules, classes, spells and everything else people expect but call use the story setting anyway instead of calling the land Dayrun we will still call it Faerun, instead of calling this guy blizzit we will still call him Drizzit...cause they need those names/places cause they have no imagination themselves to do a COMPLETE job and make up for the lack of creativity on their own.

And that,is the scariest thing of them all. Enough creativity to make it unrecognizable while still needing to keep just enough to leech from the popularity of it.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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Wheres the hardcore DAOC fans? would they see this as a DAOC2 from the leaks? I never played daoc so im not sure how it played, but just off the top of my head: just because teso has 3 factions doesnt make it daoc2. I think thats the only resemblance I see between the two, I could be wrong, because my mmo history radius does not extend to much of daoc.

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Originally posted by toddze

Wheres the hardcore DAOC fans? would they see this as a DAOC2 from the leaks? I never played daoc so im not sure how it played, but just off the top of my head: just because teso has 3 factions doesnt make it daoc2. I think thats the only resemblance I see between the two, I could be wrong, because my mmo history radius does not extend to much of daoc.

the reason they said that is b/c the guy who made Daoc is in charge of making this game and no he wasnt part of warhammer team.