Posted
by
timothy
on Thursday May 17, 2012 @02:32PM
from the hearts-and-mines dept.

New submitter PantherSE writes with an article at CNN about the geopolitical importance of labeling, excerpting thus: "Iran has threatened legal action against Google for not labeling the Persian Gulf on its maps. 'Toying with modern technologies in political issues is among the new measures by the enemies against Iran, (and) in this regard, Google has been treated as a plaything,' Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast said Thursday, according to state-run Press TV. He added that 'omitting the name Persian Gulf is (like) playing with the feelings and realities of the Iranian nation.'"

Added on May 10, 2012 5:33pm by AndrewUndone 1 editsApprovedComment on May 10, 2012 5:34pm by AndrewReason for editing : OtherDeleting an existing feature is not the best way to cope with spamApproved on May 10, 2012 5:45pm by AngelaDeleted on May 5, 2012 1:49pm by Fahd BahrainUndone on May 10, 2012 5:33pm by AndrewDeletedPlace marked as closedComment on May 5, 2012 1:51pm by Fahd Bahra

The CIA is not an authority on the correct naming of anything outside of US borders, and especially not on the other side of the planet. The UN really isn't either; why should countries far removed from your own get to name bodies of water that border your country? I don't see how the IHO has any authority either. And private companies certainly aren't authorities on geopolitical matters either.

The only people who have a real right to name things are people in the area that geographical feature is. Here

Some of the countries on the South shore of the gulf want it to be referred to as the Arabian Gulf. Which pisses off the Iranians (as intended) who prefer to call it the Persian Gulf. Google is avoiding picking sides by leaving it unlabeled.

Do you remember Alexander Makedonsky? Who fighted against, guess who, Persia? So guess what, it is Persian Gulf, it will be Persian Gulf, it was Persian Gulf when there was not even English language at all.

/rant mode on
GP is probably Russian - quit pointing out unimportant grammar errors as if they diminish his actual point. His English is likely better than your Russian, or whatever GP's first language is.
/rant mode off

The Koreans dispute the name, mainly the South Koreans. Like all naming disputes, it doesn't matter the lands that border them, it's mostly a political and pride issue. Koreans dislike the name because the name for the body of water arose when Korea was under Japaneese rule, so it is kind of a reminder to them of that period. Not all things in this world are based on sound reasoning. Just a hint of research on your part would have clued you in on this, however, I have the fortune to actually remember this point from high school days. Ah, memories!

Usually what they do is simply return different results depending on where you're from and people don't know differently. I presume they have either stopped doing that in general or in this case there's no clear agreement even based on where you are what the official name is. (Obviously in Iran it's the 'persian gulf' but the US, EU and UN may not have any official position on the matter as it's not a territorial dispute, it's just a terminology dispute).

This isn't a list on a document, it's labels on a map. They could easily put both names in, closer to the respective countries that prefer those names. So "Persian Gulf" would appear near the Iranian shore, and "Arabian Gulf" would appear near the southern shore.

That's a whole new pissing match. Why is your "Arabian Gulf" shown in our "Persian Gulf". The same could be said about the other names, "The Gulf", "Gulf of Iran", "Jama Sea", "Pars Sea", "Persian Sea".

In 2006, the UN agreed that the body of water is to be known as the "Persian Gulf". Then it becomes a question of, is Google responsible for international negotiations on naming rights and the proper name for every place? Leaving a disputed location unmarked can be problem

Back in Windows 95 you could click on your country on the world map to set the time zone. A border dispute caused complaints to Microsoft and they removed the feature (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08/22/54679.aspx). This reminds me of that, only sillier.

I had to check and sure enough the Persian Gulf isn't labeled. So I did the obvious thing and scrolled over to China and saw that Taiwan was labeled Taiwan.

As far as geopolitics go, I think keeping China happy by not provoking them on the Taiwan issue is far more important than ticking off Iran by not labeling the Persian Gulf.

I couldn't even fathom why this was an issue, but google brought up this link about a naming dispute [wikipedia.org] which Iran apparently takes quite seriously. So, if the goal was to piss off and humiliate Iran, wouldn't Google have labeled it the Arabian Gulf?

No, it's a "region". All the countries are "regions", but not all "regions" are necessarily countries. It's a great weasel word for people who want to reach some sort of consensus (i.e. on "country codes") without being able to resolve 50 year old conflicts. Taiwan also has its own "country code" (.tw), because it is an independent country, dependent territory, or special area of geographical interest - and the beauty is you don't have to say which.

Seriously, Microsoft has had employees detained in China because they didn't make this sort of thing clear enough.

No, it's a "region". All the countries are "regions", but not all "regions" are necessarily countries.

Huh. So are there any "regions" which aren't "countries" according to people who don't have a vested political interest in them not being countries, or is this literally a "Let's make China happy" weasel?

Alaska is a region and not a country. It's part of a larger country, the USA, but on Google Maps, it only says "Alaska" and draws the border separating it from Canada. The "Alaska" font is smaller than the "Canada" font however.

Svalbard is also a region (and island chain), and not a country. It's owned by Norway, but Google Maps only shows "Svalbard". And the font is just as big as those used for other European countries.

The ownership of both these regions is not in dispute (except maybe by Sarah Palin'

So I did the obvious thing and scrolled over to China and saw that Taiwan was labeled Taiwan.

PRC does not have a problem with the term "Taiwan" as such, because it's just the name of the island. They only get a fit if you call it "Republic of China", or otherwise state or imply that it's a sovereign country.

If you want another example where a name is omitted on Google Maps for what looks like political reasons, try Sea of Japan.

Which, as I should have clarified, is exactly what they've done. Taiwan is labeled as an independent country. Contrast with Puerto Rico or any of the islands that make up the Philippines to see the difference.

When I look at it in Google Maps, I actually see the localized Chinese label, so I don't know what it says. But it doesn't look like a country label - it's slightly bolded, and larger than other labels, but e.g. Hong Kong is labelled in exact same font size/weight. And labels for individual US states and Canadian provinces are even more prominent.

The only reliable indicator of whether it's a country or not on Google Maps seems to be the way borders are drawn - borders between states are solid, while those b

When I look at it in Google Maps, I actually see the localized Chinese label, so I don't know what it says. But it doesn't look like a country label - it's slightly bolded, and larger than other labels, but e.g. Hong Kong is labelled in exact same font size/weight.

Then it's localized to also not be a country (or just more confusing with Chinese characters). On my Google Maps it's the exact same font as everything that is a country and nothing that isn't. It is very clear that it is treated as a country.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that it seems to depend on whether I enable WebGL or not. When it's enabled, it seems that labels are drawn client-side, and then the label for Taiwan is just as big as for China. Without WebGL, the labels are part of the tile images, and there it's the same size as Hong Kong, and smaller than China.

I wonder if it also depends on the language for the labels. For me, all labels show in the local language - i.e. in Chinese for China, in Japanese for Japan, in English for

On the drop-down menu in the upper-right of Google Maps, where you would pick Satellite/Maps/Photos/etc, one of the options I have is a checkbox labeled 'English' which determines if the labels show up in English or their local language.

In the original release of Windows 95, you could change your time zone by clicking on the map, and the time zone you selected would highlight. Similarly, you could change your Region Settings by clicking on the world map. This was one of those little touches that made Windows 95 that much more fun to use.

But we had to remove those features within months of release, even though we based both of the maps on the borders officially recognized by the United Nations.

In early 1995, a border war broke out between Peru and Ecuador and the Peruvian government complained to Microsoft that the border was incorrectly placed. Of course, if we complied and moved the border northward, we'd get an equally angry letter from the Ecuadorian government demanding that we move it back. So we removed the feature altogether.

The time zone map met a similar fate. The Indian government threatened to ban all Microsoft software from the country because we assigned a disputed region to Pakistan in the time zone map. (Any map that depicts an unfavorable border must bear a government stamp warning the end-user that the borders are incorrect. You can't stamp software.) We had to make a special version of Windows 95 for them.

Google Inc.'s popular online mapping service has become entangled in a long-running territorial dispute between China and Taiwan.

Until recently, Google's maps described Taiwan as a "province of China." That sparked protests from Taiwan's government, which has considered its island an independent state since ending a civil war with China more than a half-century ago.

Shortly after Taiwan's foreign ministry formally complained, the China reference abruptly disappeared from Google's Taiwan map last week. That change has provoked cries of dismay in China and talk of a possible boycott of Google's service in that country, according to Chinese media.

If I recall correctly, Microsoft also faced the same issue after they suggested Taiwan was somehow an independent nation in locale settings, but they changed it after the Chinese government complained.

Google generally takes to naming things the local term. But I knew about a naming clash for Macedonia. Apparently Google has labeled it first with its native name, then the Latin character equivalent while also including the United Nations-recognized "FYROM" (the former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia... yes, the "former" is capitalized correctly... it is also sorted as if it starts with a "t", because it does.)

I was in the Navy, and after the Shah fell and Iran became a thorn in the side of the U.S., we stopped calling it the Persian Gulf and started calling it the Arabian Gulf. It's still called that by the Navy and U.S. Government to this day.

As it's bordered roughly on half by Arabian countries and half by Persian (Iran), there's a strong case for either.

I looked on Google Maps and there isn't a name now, although I don't know if that was that way prior to Iran's actions.

"In recent years, due to increased cooperation with Arab states of the Persian Gulf, various branches of the U.S. armed forces have issued directives to their members to use the "Arabian Gulf" when operating in the area ("Persian Gulf" is still used in official publications and websites), partially to follow local conventions, or simply to follow local laws that ban the use of "Persian Gulf", e.g. in the United Arab Emirates."

As it's bordered roughly on half by Arabian countries and half by Persian (Iran), there's a strong case for either.

Well I suppose if you ignore everything else, including the fact that up until the 60's those Arabian countries were perfectly fine with the name, then yes, they have just a strong claim.

Thing is, the attested use of the term "Persian Sea" or "Persian Gulf" dates back at least to the Roman Empire - and was universally used by all Western countries and all Arab countries. The idea that it should be renamed "Arabian" is a 20-century Arab nationalist rallying cry. I don't see any reason to break from historical usage to appease someone's newly-found sensitivities. When US appeared as an independent country, we didn't rename the Gulf of Mexico, for example.

It used to be right, and then they added in an extra g for some reason. I wrote a message on the Google Maps "support" forum and never got a response. I'd say Mehmanparast just had the same experience that I did, but overreacted a little.

I read the headline and had a belly laugh to the point of hurting. What kind of legal action can they really take? I guess they could indict a few Google executives in their Sharia Court of Law which will amount to precisely nothing. In fact, I imagine Sergey Brin is laughing at this too. About the only thing Iran can do is rattle its sabre again to drive oil prices back up over a hundred bucks a barrel.

There's no layout decisions there, since the map is zoomable. They can always start showing the label at certain zoom levels - only they don't, even when other bodies of water of smaller size do at the same level.

Nah, it's just Google trying to dodge the bullet. If they use "Persian Gulf", then Egypt etc will get mad at them. So they don't label it either way.

I used to work for HP, and the Turkish government threatened to ban our Debian-based thin clients because one of the language options with Kurdish. Apparently, the Turks are so sensitive about the Kurds that even having the language option appear in the list was unacceptable within their country. They refuse to acknowledge the Kurds, so they try to wipe out any evidence within Turkey that they ever existed, past or present.

I forgot to mention that I believe the solution we came up with was to have a special branch in our code base that was identical to the trunk, with the single exception being that the Kurdish language was removed. We mercilessly mocked Turkey for weeks over the absurdity of their childish demands.

I used to hang out on the Google translate forum. Every week there would be some loony nationalist who was deeply offended that

* His language was not implemented (Turks, mostly)* His language was not implemented to his satisfaction (Lithuanians in particular. "Our language is the most complex in the world!")* An "enemy" language was implemented ("Macedonian is not a language! It is a dialect of Bulgarian!" - said by Greeks)* Their national anthem inexplicably got the words "God Save The Queen" inserted into them (an Irishman, memorably)* etc.

In any case, the only explanation which they would accept was a deep conspiracy at Google to taunt and slight their proud nations.

In what court is Iran going so sue Google? Does Google have a presence in Iran? Or are they going to send lawyers over to the Great Satan and file in their jurisdiction? That would be hilarious -- country has feelings hurt by multinational company.

If I look on google Maps, Tibet is labelled as Tibet... not the "northern resource area" or whatever China calls it. I still refer to it as Burma, not Myanmar.

omitting the name Persian Gulf is (like) playing with the feelings and realities of the Iranian nation

And therein lies the rub... countries don't have feelings. Getting all butt-hurt because the rest of the world won't label things to match what you want them to is childish and petulant... but I guess that's pretty much Iran's foreign policy.

The Foreign Ministry spokesman has a tiny penis, and a brain to match.

I'd kind of like to see Sasha Baron Cohen as the Dictator simply reading the public statements which have come out of Iran over the last several years -- that would be bloody hilarious. Or, totally indistinguishable from the real thing.

What sort of legal action, exactly, can you take against somebody for making a map that hurts your feelings?

I've never heard of any legal success in the US on those grounds(though PR concerns certainly motivate companies to tread lightly) and under the present US sanctions, Google is unlikely to be officially operating within Iran at all(given the SSL MiTM incident a while back, there are obviously Iranians using Google services; but the sanctions make it rather unlikely that Google would choose to site any official branch offices there), so it hardly matters whether Iran has a rule against hurting their feelings in the process of mapping.

They threatened "legal action" but that doesn't mean they have to file suit in US courts. Iran is a sovereign nation and they follow Sharia law. The Ayatollah can issue a Fatwa to "all believers" to murder Google execs anywhere they are found.

They should change their name from IRAN to IRAA. Then we would be scared of their threats. Next thing North KORAA will be taking legal action against the New York Times for referring to them as a "Stalinist dictatorship " [1.]

Just because we don't like their current islamist regime, doesn't mean they aren't right w.r.t. the name of the Gulf. It has been "Persian Gulf" for most of the History, and Google really ought to respect that. Now, suing Google is pretty pointless, if Iran doesn't have diplomatic ties with the US, but that's another story altogether.

technically, they're wrong. they assert that the the label was removed. this is false. the label was never put there to begin with. and it was never put there to begin with precisely to avoid the stupid, childish bickering over the term persian vs arabian. iran's diplomats should be tried under sharia law for wasting allah's time. if it were my maps, i'd make the label say Gulf of Fucktard Politics.

There's a bit of a difference between calling something by a silly name, and threatening legal action against someone. I don't recall anyone from the US State Department (equivalent to the Foreign Ministry, I assume) ever mentioning the matter, much less threatening anyone who avoided the matter by just calling them "fries."

Though I do wonder: legal action? What are they going to sue Google for? The closet thing I can think of is lack of trademark attribution, which is still light years away from being applicable.