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ROGUERogues use dirty tricks, guile, shock and mobility to beat the enemy in combat. In 4e terms they move like strikers and attack like (mostly) single target controllers. Maneuvers often focus on applying conditions. (For pre 4e players- effects like prone, daze, stun, blind, immobilize, poison) They reduce the enemy's efficiency through resource denial and debuffing. They have strong maneuverability options to further control the ways in which an enemy can engage them.

FIGHTERFighters focus on reducing the enemy to 0 HP, using maneuvers that deal extra damage and extra attacks. They also have maneuvers that limit the enemies ability to deliver damage by reducing it, preventing it, or avoiding it. This can help take some of the pressure off the cleric by giving a form of proactive healing via damage denial for parties that don't want to include clerics. In 4e terms they combine the striker's damage and the defenders protection.

Nah. I like my fighters to be able to do both but preferring damage because they don't need to use tricks to survive. The rogue on the other hand must resort to trickery and placing conditions to compensate for their combat deficiency.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

A rogues fighting style should be primarily about deception.... and its impact I think is more nuanced than just control and every fighting style exploits more than one gambit... and involves control of a sort.

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

Rogues lie, cheat, and steal, but not in the middle of a fight (with some exceptions). They can use tricks in a fight, but they don't rely on them.

The difference between the Rogue and the Fighter is that a Fighter uses martial prowess to defeat his enemies, but a Rogue uses his brain. The Rogue uses stealth, poisons, and traps because he can and not because he has to. A Fighter is better than a Rogue in a direct fight, but the Rogue is not above exploiting weaknesses.

Rogues lie, cheat, and steal, but not in the middle of a fight (with some exceptions). They can use tricks in a fight, but they don't rely on them.

The difference between the Rogue and the Fighter is that a Fighter uses martial prowess to defeat his enemies, but a Rogue uses his brain. The Rogue uses stealth, poisons, and traps because he can and not because he has to. A Fighter is better than a Rogue in a direct fight, but the Rogue is not above exploiting weaknesses.

It's funny, as character classes are based on preconceptions.

Your preconceptions are not better that ours !

Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.It's not supported by any edition, as the default attack feature is backstab or sneak attack.

I also prefer trickster rogues, but the fact is that they never existed in any edition before.They just switch between skill solo mode and weapon combat mode with a twist.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

I've always wanted to see the Rogue more of a (using 4e terms here) Martial Controller/Martial Striker whereas the Fighter would be a Martial Striker/Martial Defender.

When the Rogue "sneak attacks" (what a horrid name for it though) someone it shouldn't be just damage but some debilitating effect also. Slow, Blind, Deafened, Silenced, Force Movement, Sickened, and Paralized are all things that can happen based on martial attacks described correctly.

Throwing some sand in the eyes of the enemy as you stab with a one handed finesse weapon? Damage + Blinded.

Stabbing your enemy and then jabbing the enemy with your free hand in the throat? Damage + Silenced.

The Rogue isn't all about killing, sometimes you need your target alive.

Meanwhile the Fighter doesn't care about all that stuff... Using brute force or finesse to make the enemy dead is a form of making them blinded or silenced. The Fighter doesn't try to take prisoners, the fighter leaves his enemies on the battlefield dead.

Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

Rogues lie, cheat, and steal, but not in the middle of a fight (with some exceptions). They can use tricks in a fight, but they don't rely on them.

The difference between the Rogue and the Fighter is that a Fighter uses martial prowess to defeat his enemies, but a Rogue uses his brain. The Rogue uses stealth, poisons, and traps because he can and not because he has to. A Fighter is better than a Rogue in a direct fight, but the Rogue is not above exploiting weaknesses.

Wrong! The Rogue doesn't use his Brain, he uses his Dexterity!

Seriously though, I wish Rogues had better incentive to be clever. Because all rogues are gymnasts. And all gymnasts can pick locks. And all lock pickers can assassinate....wait, none of that makes sense.

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke