It's extinct except for homebrewers. There are some newer examples out there, made since the guidelines were last updated. Coors has one called Batch 45 or something, but I didn't find the hop character very noticeable.

For some background you can read this.http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

Straub is making one, 1872 Pilsner, no idea how good. One of the local places, Wolverine, makes a CAP in the summer.

The guidelines reflect what is being entered in large amounts in homebrew competitions. CAP was so it got a category in the 2008 guidelines, so did Double IPAs. There are beers that are not in the guidelines, see cat. 23. If I brewed a Tmave Pivo it would have to go in cat. 23, as those are styles in the Czech Republic, but are mostly unknown here and not entered in quantity in competitions.

I shared my homebrewed CAP with Jeff Renner last weekend since he's in FL for a couple weeks. This version of his recipe is slightly too bitter and to me has just a bit too much Cluster hop flavor. I am lagering the other half of the batch and decided to dry hop it with Mittelfruh. He suggested I use first wort hopping the next time.

It is a good beer, but I don't think it's hoppy enough for a true CAP.

This is one of the many reasons I'm looking forward to the guideline update. "Medium to high hop aroma/flavor/bitterness" leaves a lot to be interpreted if you don't have a classic example. I brew a CAP with 6 oz of Saaz - usual comments are 'not hoppy enough', whatever that means. I might just enter a Prima Pils type German Pils as a CAP and see if that's hoppy enough! HA!

I have a CAP in my to brew list. Just looking at the simple ingredients makes me want to brew it and see what I get. Back in the day we drank mostly lagers/pilsners. This should be a good "starting point" to see if I want to tweak up a pilsner recipe to have as a house regular.

Jim, do you use beersmith? I have the Renner "Your Father's Mustache", and Jamil's "Classic American Pilsner" basic recipes ready. You will need to tweak them as I just put them in as they were written. Renner's is probably more true to style with 6 row, but Jamil's looks fine with a blend of 2 row.

It is a good beer, but I don't think it's hoppy enough for a true CAP.

This is one of the many reasons I'm looking forward to the guideline update. "Medium to high hop aroma/flavor/bitterness" leaves a lot to be interpreted if you don't have a classic example. I brew a CAP with 6 oz of Saaz - usual comments are 'not hoppy enough', whatever that means. I might just enter a Prima Pils type German Pils as a CAP and see if that's hoppy enough! HA!

The one I had in the second round last year was said to be not bitter enough. It was designed for 38 IBUs, and was about 1.050. FWH was used, so I might bump up the cluster addition next time.

It is a good beer, but I don't think it's hoppy enough for a true CAP.

This is one of the many reasons I'm looking forward to the guideline update. "Medium to high hop aroma/flavor/bitterness" leaves a lot to be interpreted if you don't have a classic example. I brew a CAP with 6 oz of Saaz - usual comments are 'not hoppy enough', whatever that means. I might just enter a Prima Pils type German Pils as a CAP and see if that's hoppy enough! HA!

Amanda, I'd be in the same quandary if I hadn't tasted Jeff Renner's and a couple other versions influenced by him. Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

I don't think they drank anything approaching the hop levels of todays beers. Nobody was making hops bombs because hops were expensive (they still are). But the lessening of flavor started long before prohibition too. Refrigeration probably freed brewers to use less hops because they depended on preservative qualities a little less. CAP probably had bitterness similar to a german pilsner because it was german immigrant brewers who came here and tried to brew the beers they knew with local ingredients.

IPA is nothing like it was either. It doesn't sit in casks in the bottom of a ship for six months before being drunk.

I don't think they drank anything approaching the hop levels of todays beers. Nobody was making hops bombs because hops were expensive (they still are). But the lessening of flavor started long before prohibition too. Refrigeration probably freed brewers to use less hops because they depended on preservative qualities a little less. CAP probably had bitterness similar to a german pilsner because it was german immigrant brewers who came here and tried to brew the beers they knew with local ingredients.

IPA is nothing like it was either. It doesn't sit in casks in the bottom of a ship for six months before being drunk.

Amanda, I'd be in the same quandary if I hadn't tasted Jeff Renner's and a couple other versions influenced by him. Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that'd be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort. ;D Cluster is naaasty(read in Cleveland's voice) in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner's CAP recipe?

I will have to get his current one off of the old laptop. It uses Cluster, which I think is not bad at all if it is fresh. You may perceive it different from me. Some don't like Fuggles, I detest Nelson Sauvin. We all have different tastes.

I like my Pre Prohibition CAP with 40/40/20 pils/six row/flaked corn. I usually FWH Sterling and a late addition with Saaz and or Sterling. Not too much hop aroma, just a tickle. This is my go to summer beer when the IPA is just too much.

Denny, you being the godfather of batch sparging, how would you handle Jeff's mash schedule?

30 min @ 12215 min @ 14040 min @ 15810 min @ mashout

Personally I hate step mashes in a cooler. Carrying boiling water isn't my cup of tea. Single infusion at 150-151?

IIRC, Jeff has modiifed that schedule significantly since the article was written. I'd do 30 min. at 144 and 30 min. at 158. hopfenmalz has mentioned that Jeff often uses polenta mashed in a pressure cooker. Here's a more recent article by Jeff Renner, updating his procedure....http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1298/SOzym00-Pilsner.pdf

IIRC, Jeff has modiifed that schedule significantly since the article was written. I'd do 30 min. at 144 and 30 min. at 158. hopfenmalz has mentioned that Jeff often uses polenta mashed in a pressure cooker. Here's a more recent article by Jeff Renner, updating his procedure....http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1298/SOzym00-Pilsner.pdf

I've made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner's recipe per Jeff Rankert. It's a Jeff thing.I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU's.I used 2206 in mine, because that's the lager yeast I had at the time.

Since the style calls for native American hops, which there is no such thing, their native to China if memory serves, maybe this is a mythical beer and that's why a commercial version doesn't exist.

IMO, that is a misnomer in the guidelines.

There actually are "native American hops" for example Humulus lupulus neomexicanus. They are the wild common variety that occurred here prior to European settlement.

What I think they are talking about here are early American hops that may have become "naturalized".Cluster is one of these varieties still around today...but it still has its origins from whatever the settlers brought over and it gradually became known as the classic American hop...for use in the Classic American Pilsner! :)

I've made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner's recipe per Jeff Rankert. It's a Jeff thing.I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU's.I used 2206 in mine, because that's the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

I've made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner's recipe per Jeff Rankert. It's a Jeff thing.I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU's.I used 2206 in mine, because that's the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

old fashioned grits are pretty chunky. I know when I cook them they are edible at 30 minutes but they are still 'al dente' if you want mush it could well take an hour.

I've made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner's recipe per Jeff Rankert. It's a Jeff thing.I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU's.I used 2206 in mine, because that's the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

That is what I missed. I am using corn meal tomorrow, 20 min or so is good. The one time the club did a beer with grits from South Carolina - that was forever, about 2 hours. those were chunky!

I've made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner's recipe per Jeff Rankert. It's a Jeff thing.I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU's.I used 2206 in mine, because that's the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

That is what I missed. I am using corn meal tomorrow, 20 min or so is good. The one time the club did a beer with grits from South Carolina - that was forever, about 2 hours. those were chunky!

I will say that the grits and malt mixture after the 60 minute decoction boil tasted great, better than breakfast grits.

IIRC, Jeff has modiifed that schedule significantly since the article was written. I'd do 30 min. at 144 and 30 min. at 158. hopfenmalz has mentioned that Jeff often uses polenta mashed in a pressure cooker. Here's a more recent article by Jeff Renner, updating his procedure....http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1298/SOzym00-Pilsner.pdf