On 14/01/2013 hero wrote:>Wendy. Disappointed in you. Gara Gorge is Armidale's mega area, one of>the best granite areas in Australia and has an over abundance of amazing>offwidths that you would love. And I have extolled the virtues many times.

Oh, so it's that place. Of course, you have been trying to sell new routing around Leeton as well, and I do remember the chimney like a bat's anus and dripping roof crack from the far northern group. I do have a set of standards by which to assess your recommendations!! But if I ever find myself around Armidale when it's not the middle of winter, I'll go thrutch up a few of them. I'm sure they are filthy, vegetated and have seen even less action than the not dissimilar things I did around Canberra with Damo.

3 years is a long time for someone to climb off that list of climbs .... And a lot of travelling for minimal climbing! I'm sure it's a classic book for lots of reasons, some of them being the eclectic choice of routes and crags!

On the topic of things like that just don't get done anymore, we all know it's because sport climbing and modern gear have made us all wusses! I freely admit to be thrilled I started climbing after the advent of modern gear, but there's no doubt that changed our standards and acceptance of levels of risk. And for those people who started climbing after sportclimbing and gyms because commonplace, those standards have changed again. Someone wandered past me a few years ago after I had lead Cruel Britannia and asked how I'd gotten my head around leading hard on trad. Really, it just isn't an issue because placing trad was just what you did and it works fine. Good gear, good bolt, much of a muchness. But now lots of people seem to have moved even further down the path away from what tends to be called "adventure" climbing by learning their initial standards in highly sanitised conditions. It's not that these routes aren't still out there. New, classic ones, maybe not, but plenty to go an repeat if you like that sort of thing. Lots of people just don't because it's too far from their experience and expectations of climbing these days. And also, as a result, too far from their skill level as well. It's a bit self perpetuating. Like moaning about climbing cracks. Or the rock at Buffalo. The more people talk it down, the less people don't do it. The more people don't do it, the more the skills disappear and the rock goes back to being grotty and vegetated. Oh well, at least there are no queues when those of us who want to get out there.

On 14/01/2013 nerm wrote:>On 14/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>And of course there is now great lack of 'classic' lines awaiting a first>>ascent! Anything really good has probably been done (unless it's grade>>32+).>>Here ya go:>http://www.thesarvo.com/confluence/display/thesarvo/2013/01/14/Diamond+Peak+photos
I've got a classic copy of the Launceston Walking Club's magazine "Skyline" from 1976. Among others it contains :
Traverse of the Prince of Wales Range - Diamond Peak - The Spires
Bob Brown's trip down the Franklin with Paul Smith, only the fourth such journey
A Lilo trip down the Jane river
Rob McMahon's huge fall at Ben Lomond and subsequent rescue
Wedding of Mary King, daughter of Denny King, at Port Davey
Days of adventure indeed.

"As well as the scrub - we had problems with heat and lack of water. We tried squeezing moss - but most was dry. Later we did find some moss that contained liquid - but it was horrid. We could not filter it through cloth or toilet paper (it could not be squeezed through!) - so we drank it as it was - a dark black, thick liquid. At one stage Peter resorted to squeezing the abdomen of the march flies - a drop of goo would come out - and it tasted sweet - but did not really quench the thirst."

On 14/01/2013 sbm wrote:>This report from Dave Noble's website?>"As well as the scrub - we had problems with heat and lack of water. We tried squeezing moss - but most was dry. Later we did find some moss that contained liquid - but it was horrid. We could not filter it through cloth or toilet paper (it could not be squeezed through!) - so we drank it as it was - a dark black, thick liquid. At one stage Peter resorted to squeezing the abdomen of the march flies - a drop of goo would come out - and it tasted sweet - but did not really quench the thirst."

I think you're self-delusionary Wendy. You claim you like classic cracks but when faced with the naked truth you realise that you wanted an short overbolted Mt York route :) I've always been much more honest to myself. I hate wide things.

I don't know of anyone climbing up there at the moment. Just getting into the gorge can be a logistic nightmare, and best go with someone who a) knows the way, and b) is adept in the art of co/cky sucking. It's national park but all the access is through farms.

There's also Warabah. Greg Croft described it as "a **** of a walk in" and we all stayed away.

From my memory, and remember it's not what it used to be, the big things like the corner left of Wedding Bells was pretty clean. Roofs and overhanging cracks tend to be OK. Can't vouch for the thing on top of Grey Wall.

And adventure is state of mind, but I'm not sure everyone's up for it nowadays. But there is always something out there to do (if you're not a soft coc/k and take an eperb, support team, sat phone). It's just out there past the point of no return ... I can show you the way if you like :)

On 15/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Dare I say that Frenchmans Cap would be an ideal place for a latter day>classic partially bolted route. So much rock on that mountain - and the>vertical walls, roofs and aretes are all very clean.

From memory Adam D finished the old De Gaulle's nose direct project (I think both Steve Monks and maybe Carrigan had tried it before) and placed a few bolts on lead.

I certainly don't think that Frenchman's a is a place for rap bolting and clip ups, but it tends to be a bit of a slippery slope as soon as bolts start getting placed...

On 15/01/2013 Cam McKenzie wrote:>I certainly don't think that Frenchman's a is a place for rap bolting>and clip ups, but it tends to be a bit of a slippery slope as soon as bolts>start getting placed...

I totally agree. Frenchmans is not the place for power drills, rap-bolting or clip-ups. I know you could put up amazing routes if you used these tactics but I really don't think it is in the spirit of climbing there.

I think its the perfect place for a powerdrill! That rocks so hard handdrilling seems pretty tedious. Agree it could be a slippery slope, but a strict ground up ethic is the go. Tassie holds many 'last great lines', on many awesome crags. Many recent routes have succumbed to abseil inspection. Perhaps theres a Beat Kammerlander hiding in the wings? Maybe a Silbergeir is just sitting there waiting? Hardly a clip up

On 15/01/2013 sliamese wrote:>I think its the perfect place for a powerdrill! That rocks so hard handdrilling seems pretty tedious.

That's why hand-drilling is a better ethic to enforce than a ground-up ethic.

>Agree it could be a slippery slope, but a strict ground up ethic is the go.

Going ground-up place still allows you to place bolt ladders. Just look at Maestri and Cerro Torre.

>Tassie holds many 'last great lines', on many awesome crags. Many recent routes have succumbed to abseil inspection.

But Frenchmans Cap has so far been one of the great crags for ground-up adventure climbing in this country. It has plenty of great climbs already on it. In my opinion establishing routes with bolts at Frenchmans would be pretty straightforward and I don't think the climbing would be particularly hard. It would simply take away from all the commitment, adventure and judgment that is so integral to climbing there.

>Perhaps theres a Beat Kammerlander hiding in the wings? Maybe a Silbergeir is just sitting there waiting? Hardly a clip up

You already have De Gaulles Nose (23), The Great Flake (22), Conquistador (21), The Lorax (20). These routes were done ground-up with virtually no bolts and tackle great sections of the cliff and are great adventure routes. I don't think the idea of having a Silbergier in any way justifies changing the traditional ethic of the cliff. Routes established with power drills are more likely to be consumer classics (we have enough of them in this country already) and the idea of deliberately running it out when you have a power drill at your disposal just seems contrived.

Tasmania already has stacks of adventurous rock where power drills have been accepted as the norm (all the sea cliffs on the Tasman Peninsula, Freycinet, Tyndalls, Mt Wellington and now Fingal).

In Yosemite Valley power drills are banned and only hand-drilling is allowed. I think we should adopt a similar ethic for Frenchmans Cap if we are genuine about preserving the wilderness values of climbing there.

I agree- keep Frenchmans bolt free. (Recent grid bolting at Kaputar has soured my belief in "self regulation"). There must be areas that are kept bolt free (except perhaps rap stations- not at Frenchmans- but other Tassie bolt free crags spring to mind)
Neilo, how less deadly and interesting would Electra have been without the 20 metre run outs on pitch 2 and the deadly down climb and traverse off before rapping from a chockstone?? And yeah, we might have bemoaned being stuck in wet cracks on Chimes while the rock all around had dried out and looked amazing, but it was a great days climbing, and such great photos of misery in the sleet! Far more memaorable than low stress clip ups. Its a world heritage area. It can do without bolts.

On 16/01/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>Didn't Maestri employ a bunch of porters for his compressor?>;-)>>>... and for the record, I agree with those who believe Frenchmans Cap>should remain power drill free.

Meh, Nepal only had a paper currency in the 1940s, apparently in the old days the expeditioners hired a special porter just to carry the hard (and heavy) currency they needed and a guard for said porter since they'd need cash for months.

Maybe they modern analogy would be we'd need a porter to carry all the spare batteries we'd need to ground up grid bolt Frenchmans (I kid).

On 15/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>I'm just playing the devils advocate. There is no way I'm lugging bolting>gear into that place!

ah come on, the gear won't slow you down to much, I saw you run into that place a do a route the same day, while we were still stuck in the bog!

Agree it should stay power drill free though, there are already plenty of classics there and they only seem to get one or two ascents a year. (Although maybe when the track is realigned they'll be more popular?)