Hellscream Name Constantly Slandered, Why?

"Do not repeat the mistakes of your father"
"Your father dabbled in powers he did no understand, where is he now?"

I didn't play WC3 but I am a lorehead and as a Warrior main Grom Hellscream is probably my favorite character. I mean the guy one shots Mannoroth in two separate timelines, Illidian couldn't even take him down in a duel, and Garrosh couldn't even one shot Taran Zhu with the same weapon.

Yet he's given this duel identity of Savior and Betrayer. I find that far too harsh, Grom was a hot headed Orc no doubt especially in his younger days before WC3 but he was nothing like Garrosh. He was the first to drink the blood of Mannoroth yes, but I'm pretty sure that had he known it was the blood of a 50 foot, interdimensional, space demon, he would have thought it was a bad idea. You notice in the cinematic Mannoroth doesn't appear until he rejects the blood. So yea trusting Gul'dan was bad idea that pretty much damned his people but he didn't know any better. Once again he was stubborn and hot headed but not a total warmongering buffoon like Garrosh.

He drinks the blood yet again on another occasion, I believe this time he knew about the dire effects it would have. However in this case it was either drink the blood...or get torn to shreds by the xenophobic Cenarius who wasn't up for negotiations. He made a dire judgement call, he didn't want to see his clansmen slaughtered. Then as we all know he later redeems himself for this action very quickly in a blaze of glory.

So now we have Garrosh....someone who I feel is thee worst developed character I have ever seen. He starts off wimpy in TBC fearing he'll repeat his father's mistakes (which he blindly does eventually). Thrall shows him what a hero Grom was and BLAM. Thrall inadvertently creates a monster, this guy is now a warhungry hardheaded idiot that wants to fight anything that isn't Horde. He instantly makes a ruckus at the Alliance peace summit getting into it with King Varian.
Now Varian is a very interesting character who we start seeing develop in WoTLK. We are first introduced to him as Horde during the Battle for the Undercity, here he wants to here nothing of Thrall's explanations for the atrocities at the Wrathgate and simply wants them all gone. At first I thought he was a total prick but Varian unlike Garrosh though has every reason to despise the Horde. His father was murdered by an Orc he trusted (Garona) his city Stormwind was quickly razed afterwards and finally his adoptive father Anduin Lothar is killed in combat by the Orc Warchief Doomhammer. I mean talk about childhood trauma. Yet Varian is still more reasonable then Garrosh when it comes to dealing with the Horde, mainly due to his son. Let's not forget that Varian's psyche is still a little unstable ever since Onyxia split his warrior side from his diplomatic side, as of now he's still more Lo'gash then King Varian.

So Garrosh has no reason to hate everybody, but he does. He was all for a war against the Alliance and the Scourge during the campaign in Northrend, some of his officers even making the Alliance a priority. Thrall then thinks it's a good idea to put a young orc whose only been a part of the Horde for two freakin years in charge of the Horde as the new Warchief. -_-
The only explanation I can think of for his personality is that Garrosh is a Draenor orc, a hotheaded one at that with daddy issues, having not experienced the atrocities of the demon bound Horde he hasn't learned any humility.

So now WoD is apparently featuring Grom as the final villain....like why? We hated Garrosh, his very existence was an insult to Grom's legacy after his redemption...and now he's the bad guy? Like WTH, why does Blizzard hate this guy so much?

Also in Ashenvale, Grom knew that what Mannroth's blood was and would do and he willingly drank it a second time.

Be happy that Grom at least gets final boss status, look how badly Ner'zhul got boned by Blizzard. Powerful Orc shaman turned Lich King started events that lead to the third war while encased in a block of ice a continent away only to be replaced by his snivelling emo puppet Arthas in a novel.

Uhm, the wc3 fight was luck more than anything, Mannoroth didn't expect Grom's axe to cleave Mannoroth's weapon n continue through to strike him in the belly (Poor Mannie!) and the WoD Grom has an army of orcs behind him using siege equipement, he even uses one himself instead of facing Mannie 1 on 1 fair...I think in a stand-up fight with Mannie knowing the power of Grom's axe, then we would have a very different fight...

The concept of orcs with honour is at this stage in the lore is highly questionable. Seemingly orcs will line up to be corrupted or go on a killing spree with only the odd exception such as Thrall. Originally the orcs were just pawns of the demons and lied to so they could be twisted into an army of conquerors now that just blood crazy maniacs who are coming to kill everyone including there own kind on Azeroth. It's kind of a far cry from the whole Thrall leading the orcs on a journey of redemption and return to there more noble roots that was original going on in WC3 and early WoW.

Alternative Grom is not the same person as our Grom. They may have the same name and looks but their story and history is different, what made our Grom a hero has not happened to the alternative Grom and will never happen. Don't be so quick to judge the story behind Grom being the main villain, we have no idea what's going to happen by the time the last raid tier comes out. Also, Garrosh is older than Thrall so he really isn't a "young Orc".

Garrosh is older than Thrall.
Illidan never dueled with Mannoroth(though he could still defeat him in my opinion), but he defeated Magtheridon.
We hated Garrosh because he was killing his own people and was doing coward moves, also betrayed many of his "Friends". Grom isn't doing such a thing, he's just a PURE ORC who's defeating his enemies, who's conquering other places, areas, and now even new worlds.

I don't know why someone cannot understand such a simple thing, btw. you are saying that you're a "lorehead" but you don't know that this isn't the same Grommash? Something is wrong.

And there is our clue. Seeing the latest cinematic, Grommash immidiately decided to gargle with demonic blood after hearing the key word "conquest". He is not a good guy in any way.

In WIII, due to the complete failure of the "conquest", he works with Thrall due to lack of other options. Yet, he keeps questioning his orders all the time, even if the orders are "Grom, please, just this once, don't kill everything in your sight". His sacrifice was not really a sacrifice, he messed up with demonic blood again, so he went to repair it, he didn't know he would die.

In short, Grom was never a good guy, just a bad guy without any real chance to truly express his badness. In WoD, he has the chance, and he uses it.

Mannoroth is several times stronger than Grom. He would completely stomp on him instantly if it was a serious 1v1. Both times he had help, and one time Grom even had the assistance of Mannoroth's own blood.

Grom damned the orc people by recklessly accepting a dubious agreement that led to the destruction of villainization of almost the entire orcish race. That's a pretty big screwup.
Then he went and did it again despite knowing exactly what it would do. He did have the option to abandon his lumber camp and flee, but instead he chose to give into demonic influence - willingly - and again nearly damned his own people with his recklessness.

He's not a wholly evil person, and in fact I feel as if WoD is going to lead to him being a hero yet again in this timeline - despite being a raid boss - but he is definitely not a good person. His sins far overshadow his good deeds...and even the good deed he did was, yet again, hewing something down with his axe.

Also in Ashenvale, Grom knew that what Mannroth's blood was and would do and he willingly drank it a second time.

Be happy that Grom at least gets final boss status, look how badly Ner'zhul got boned by Blizzard. Powerful Orc shaman turned Lich King started events that lead to the third war while encased in a block of ice a continent away only to be replaced by his snivelling emo puppet Arthas in a novel.

Well let's look at it. What did Grom actually know? He drank the blood once, and joined in on heinous crimes against the draenei, but sat idle during the first war. Second war he was used as to blow up the alliance army and then decided to run off into the jungles and hangout for years(they should really do a book on this time period. Orc Troll wars) He then met young Thrall and decided to follow him and kill some Humans and free tons of orcs and then go to another continent and fight humans and then night elves.

I don't think he ever connected the dots that what he had done was bad and that the reason was the blood. Thrall never lectured him in the first place, cause Grom had the power, and only lectured him later for fighting humans. So Grom never really came to terms that the things he had done, were evil. And since he never did that, how could he understand that the blood was gonna make it worse?

Also man, don't diss Nerzhul and Arthas, they were the stepping stones to making Warcraft great in the first place. And Arthas a snivelling emo? Are you confusing Anakin or something?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike

Grom is and will forever be, in whatever timeline he is in; an asshole.

Except when you're reading a book with him as the PoV. Beyond the Dark Portal made him seem like an ok guy.

Neither Garrosh or Grom are worthy of much respect. They're both incredibly xenophobic, racist and arrogant. What's ironic is that a lot of the people praising them for their attitude are the same people who criticise any other playable race who hold more moderate views along those very same lines. The orcs - and forsaken - as a whole are responsible for much of the strife that has affected Azeroth in recent years so why they're worshiped as heroes is beyond my understanding.

Garrosh does have reasons to hate the people he does. It starts when he is approached by civilians in Orgrimmar who complain about the drought and lack of supplies they have in Orgrimmar. This is the point where Garrosh starts to wonder why the Horde doesn't just take what it needs, rather than trying to form peace with the Alliance who refuses to give them the resources they need.

Garrosh is older than Thrall.
Illidan never dueled with Mannoroth(though he could still defeat him in my opinion), but he defeated Magtheridon.
We hated Garrosh because he was killing his own people and was doing coward moves, also betrayed many of his "Friends". Grom isn't doing such a thing, he's just a PURE ORC who's defeating his enemies, who's conquering other places, areas, and now even new worlds.

I don't know why someone cannot understand such a simple thing, btw. you are saying that you're a "lorehead" but you don't know that this isn't the same Grommash? Something is wrong.

Sorry I forget just how young Thrall himself is so yes Garrosh is older, Grom was actually very old when he died having been around since before the 1st war. We hated Garrosh even during WoTLK though, his personality was just tasteless. Also I understand it's an alternate Grom, but it's still Grom Hellscream, his name will be slandered once again just as his son mutilitated it.

Originally Posted by Lesane

Garrosh does have reasons to hate the people he does. It starts when he is approached by civilians in Orgrimmar who complain about the drought and lack of supplies they have in Orgrimmar. This is the point where Garrosh starts to wonder why the Horde doesn't just take what it needs, rather than trying to form peace with the Alliance who refuses to give them the resources they need.

Your absolutely right about this. Seeing how Garrosh is an Orc from Nagrand he's probably just used to taking what his people need, all that diplomacy is foreign to him. The more reason for Thrall to have never put him in charge of anything until he assimilated

-We... we shouldn't drink this demon blood, Grommash. It will give us power enough to deal with Cenarius, but... at what cost?
-shut up u fag lol

-Grom, cutting these trees will anger the elves, maybe we should--
-CUT 10000 TREE UNITS!!
-GROM!
-wat i just wanna make the biggest fire ever lol

-Grom, get away from that exploding demon
-ur not the boss of me lol
*Grom gets the explosion in the face*
-oi thralll i have the worst hangover right now lol oooh you know that demon blood yeah it exploded too, too bad it was in my veins lol
*Grom dies*
-The... the nightmare is over! IT IS OVER!

*Garrosh travels to another dimension to warn Grom*
Garrosh: Father, it is hard to explain, but... I am your son, from another dimension.
Grom: oh crap what did i do last night lol

Thrall: Grom... my old friend. Is that really you?
Grom: lol back from killing human encampments i see
Thrall: What? It was you doing that!
Grom: oh sure lol dosnt matter imma invade azeroth, cya
Thrall: Why don't you go slay Mannoroth and stay in front of the explosion?
Grom: been there done that bud lol also you still stink from WC3

Except even without the demon blood Grom has basically embraced the same destiny he had in the other timeline - to march through the dark portal and wipe out whatever's on the other side. He's an asshole. He later changed his mind and killed Mannoroth, but that doesn't change everything he had done til that point. He's not a tragic character and doesn't deserve the sympathy people give him.