MycroftHolmes:You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.

Which is why you have things like reference letters from teachers and administrators and extracurricular activities to break the tie with the other people you're competing against who are otherwise as qualified as you. It should be primarily objective, with subjective measures for breaking ties. In many places it's the other way around.

ChuDogg:TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.

Mr. Right:Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...

Your post is logical and makes sense. Your proposition would work until you reach a geographical region where it is culturally unacceptable to hire minorities unless you are forced by government to do so. Then the issue becomes more problematic. Even in our modern world, you might be surprised how many such places still exist.

I especially like the idea of knowing who the bigots are so that we can refuse to do business with bigots.

Phins:My husband is a computer programmer, currently works for a large defense contractor. But he has also worked for small and large private companies. Programming is very merit based, you need specific technical skills and certain programming languages for any position and they don't seem to care what kind of name or skin color a person has. His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants. He's a senior guy so here reviews resumes and does interviews. I know how he reviews resumes, he looks for specific skills and about of experience; he doesn't look at the name until he's calling someone in for an interviewe. He told me that he's never even interviewed a non-immigrant black programmer.

As a student in Computer Science (U. Michigan), I can say that the students are mostly white and East Asian males. Asians are probably a little overrepresented compared to the state, but underrepresented compared to the country (though having been to the West Coast for internships, they're about 50% out there). A few token hispanics, and maybe 2 black students. I've got no idea why there are no black kids, given that we're an hour from Detroit. So when everyone is white and Asian, that's why.

/Also, are they hiring? I'm graduating this December, and am still looking for a job (though I got cold-called by a recruiter while I was finishing this sentence. Lulz).

dustygrimp:Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.

Those who "DESERVE" to get higher education should be judged on competency in the subjects being taught, not on perceived graduation rates. How do you know who's going to decide getting wasted is more important? Are you a goddamned wizard?

If you're an admissions officer, then you should be fired for being prejudiced and bigoted. I guarantee that the affirmative actions nuts would love to hear how you've instituted your own version.

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.

Shrug, with the exception of the athlete I'm opposed to special treatment for all the other classes mentioned there too. Maybe the supreme court can knock down all those crappy preference policies at once.

/ The soccer player actually has unique talents that are beneficial to the school's soccer team. I don't see athletic scholarships as being any different than academic scholarships.

MycroftHolmes:You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.

JesusJuice:Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.

bhcompy:MycroftHolmes: You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.

Which is why you have things like reference letters from teachers and administrators and extracurricular activities to break the tie with the other people you're competing against who are otherwise as qualified as you. It should be primarily objective, with subjective measures for breaking ties. In many places it's the other way around.

Without getting into the details of selection methods, I will say this. Until selection and judgement processes can be objective and unbiased across the board (and this applies to more than just college admittance, but to all aspects of life), I am in favor of some compensatory mechanism like affirmative action, though I do feel that affirmative action itself is currently too clumsy in it's application.

relcec:Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-applyA study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.

MycroftHolmes:Without getting into the details of selection methods, I will say this. Until selection and judgement processes can be objective and unbiased across the board (and this applies to more than just college admittance, but to all aspects of life), I am in favor of some compensatory mechanism like affirmative action, though I do feel that affirmative action itself is currently too clumsy in it's application.

They can never be "objective and unbiased across the board", you nitwit. There are so many variables that the Federal Government should have no place in making a decision on any of this. Regional, cultural, racial differences can't all be lumped in to one pot. HUMANS DIFFER FROM EACH OTHER CULTURALLY.

I can't believe how many folks (who are supposed to be smart) can be so goddamned idiotic and dumb. You're in complete denial about reality, choosing to go with some fantasy you've churned up in your mind because you heard somewhere that minorities are constantly oppressed by evil white people just trying to get them down.

Silly Jesus:Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.

Well, that's put better than I tried to putted it on that there thread-a-ma-jig.

ChuDogg:Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. TraditionallyA relatively new definition of racism (popular of people who like to blame all the world's ills on white people) is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

PallMall:MycroftHolmes: Without getting into the details of selection methods, I will say this. Until selection and judgement processes can be objective and unbiased across the board (and this applies to more than just college admittance, but to all aspects of life), I am in favor of some compensatory mechanism like affirmative action, though I do feel that affirmative action itself is currently too clumsy in it's application.

They can never be "objective and unbiased across the board", you nitwit. There are so many variables that the Federal Government should have no place in making a decision on any of this. Regional, cultural, racial differences can't all be lumped in to one pot. HUMANS DIFFER FROM EACH OTHER CULTURALLY.

I can't believe how many folks (who are supposed to be smart) can be so goddamned idiotic and dumb. You're in complete denial about reality, choosing to go with some fantasy you've churned up in your mind because you heard somewhere that minorities are constantly oppressed by evil white people just trying to get them down.

Grow the fark up.

Take a deep breath. Exhale. it will be alright.

You should probably have realized, from the way I worded my comment, that i am fully aware that bias is almost impossible to eliminate from the selection process. My other comments to you were meant to illustrate the complexity in subjectivity required to accurately select candidates. I apologize if I did not make my point clearly.

Complex selection processes will always contain some subjective interpretation, which means that there will always be some bias. Which is why, as heavy handed and clumsy as it is, I favor something like affirmative action.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-applyA study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.

I think that this was back in the day when it was out of 1600.

You get 900 for signing your name now, but 1100 then was a decent average score that might get you into a state school (and in no way should qualify you for an Ivy. SAT isn't perfect, but in no way was an 1100 equal to a 1550).

Dadoody:Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.

On the other hand, did they get shipped to America for education, or did their parents work those sweat jobs and medial labor while being US citizens?

I do believe we should enforce a level of help to the people whose parents put the hard work in the US, and therefore provided the tax dollars to continue to have a functioning country. If MIT ends up only accepting Chinese and Indians from here on out (And without AA, lets not kid ourselves, that's what they're going to accept), where does that leave all the people that provide the support structure that allows MIT to succeed? In this case MIT becomes a leech on the country, educating foreign workers who return home.

MycroftHolmes:Complex selection processes will always contain some subjective interpretation, which means that there will always be some bias. Which is why, as heavy handed and clumsy as it is, I favor something like affirmative action.

Which is why you're part of the problem. Again, some folks are just destined to be truck stop toilet cleaners. Wasting time and taxpayer money to bring them up to mediocre is an insult to those who busted their ass and brings society down as a whole.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-applyA study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.

I think that this was back in the day when it was out of 1600.

You get 900 for signing your name now, but 1100 then was a decent average score that might get you into a state school (and in no way should qualify you for an Ivy. SAT isn ...

Like I said, you could get an 1100 back in the day with a sneeze. If you couldn't do any better than that, they should just hand you a broom, or a shovel.

JesusJuice:ChuDogg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.

Lol. Finally the hoods come off.

Step up your game. Blacks are here and we have the will to compete. Luckily its your own white women mostly who actually gives opportunities to black on school boards and HR departments. Luckily the old school white boys don't nearly have as much privelege as they used to, not to say they still don't, but its fading fast and the first wave of blacks making their name as true equals have shown their talents and skills cant be quelled any longer from racist whites.

Honestly I think a lot of you are scared of your insecurities. I guess I don't blame you, I wouldn't want to be some scared peckerwood on a black planet. All I can say is get used to it. I ain't staying quiet like my grandfathers did.

Because this is not based on family income, only on race, it sticks out as even more racist. What liberals are saying, is black people in particular are not capable and need handouts. Poor white kids statistically do better in school, even in the same income bracket. Why? Black culture.

Time to take away the bottle. Once again, no study, anywhere, ever, has shown forced integration helps. Colleges keep saying they need diversity, but the fact is, it harms more than it helps when you have people who don't deserve it getting in, and people who worked hard getting denied.

PallMall:College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it.

And a runner-up!

Here's one of the problem we have today: we send too many people to college. Historically, only about 18% of the population has been admitted to college. It's really all we need. This has increased in recent years, but the completion rate has not gone up; in fact as a percentage of freshmen admitted, it has done down. Too many students either wash out of college or quit before they complete their degree. Only 44% of freshmen entering college graduate. Drop out rates of minorities is much higher than that of whites. This is because they simply are not adequately prepared for college level work. This isn't because they aren't as intelligent, but because the public schools they attend are so bad.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-applyA study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.

Well, an 1100 today is different from an 1100 a decade ago, since they went from 1600 point scale to 2400.

Adding points to or subtracting points from an ACT or SAT is essentially meaningless because these tests have been shown time and time again to have absolutely no predictive power on student success in college.

Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

President Raygun:Adding points to or subtracting points from an ACT or SAT is essentially meaningless because these tests have been shown time and time again to have absolutely no predictive power on student success in college.

Link

First hit on google... but this practically common knowledge at the secondary level now.

Lunaville:Well, I whined ineffectively about it to management. I would like to say I took some deeply courageous stand, but I didn't. When I realized I couldn't stand to work places that actively discriminated, my idea of protesting was to line up another job, then, resign. It's not exactly taking a grenade to save your buddies. Looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, there is probably some government agency I might have reported the situation to. There had to have been something more effective than saying "I don't like this and I'm hiding in the stockroom when applicants come in from now on!"

I was a bit harsh, sorry.

I grew up in a town populated by 'white flight', so I had no clue about how racist my environment was until I left. When everybody is white and you only hear derrogatory things about black people, you grow up sort of accepting what you hear. Strangely, many of the stereotypes I heard apply to me (I do not particularly like working, I like fried chicken and watermellon, I tend to be lazy). It never occured to me how disjointed my thinking was until I got into a more normal social environment.

Now when I see one group get angry with/about another, I get uncomfortable.

Thrusting under-qualified students into college because of their race is a disservice to everyone and only promotes racism. If the only black people you meet in college are ones that aren't as prepared as the white students and perform more poorly, that isn't going to leave a good impression in people at a subconscious level. If colleges want to have more latino/black students from underprivileged backgrounds (ie not sons/daughters of doctors/ceo's/lawyers etc.) then they need to have remedial programs where they can work with these students, get them qualified and then allow them to apply on equal terms to everyone else (might take about 2 years). IE we really need to make community college more affordable and realize that it might take 6 years to graduate, which is okay (but we need to help make such affordable).

ChuDogg:Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

ChuDogg:Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

MycroftHolmes:Profedius: It is funny how they want to become incredibly angry when a judgment is based on the color of their skin, unless it works in their favor. Skin color should not be a factor you are admitted based on your merits nothing more and nothing less. It is a sad thing our highest court cannot see this simple truth.

So, you are saying that currently, in hiring, admittance, and other practices, that race is not a factor? No one is currently ever judged simply by the color of their skin or their general appearance? Also, you are saying that 'merits' of (a job, a college admittance, a court decision, etc.) is a purely objective standard and subjective judgement never comes into play?

of course the answer to those questions is a resounding no. So it is unfair in the extreme to rail against affirmative action as being racist (of course it is, by definition), while not acknowledging or addressing the problems that affirmative action seeks to address.

No. You might try reading that again I said skin color should not be a factor I never said that it wasn't only that it shouldn't be. I also said nothing about jobs or a court decision. On the subject of jobs I really don't think the government should have a say in whom a company employs. If a racist feminist wants to employ only white women she should not be forced by the government to employ a black male. It is up to the consumers to determine if she remains solvent. Affirmative action is nothing more than giving an unfair advantage to a select group and it is as wrong as racism is.

ChuDogg:Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

President Raygun:Adding points to or subtracting points from an ACT or SAT is essentially meaningless because these tests have been shown time and time again to have absolutely no predictive power on student success in college

Silly Jesus:So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.

Mainly parents. I'm too lazy to pull up articles but one of the strongest predictors of academic performance is how often children are read to when babies/toddlers. If you spend 10 minutes a day reading to a kid everyday they will do much, much better when entering the school system. It really does all come down to parents.

Sadly 1/2 of children under the age of 5 are not read to on a daily basis, with minorities being overrepresented. It's sad when you give a toddler a book upside down and they have no frickin idea what to do with it (when kids who are read to will flip it around and start turning pages).

kaduh:ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

Lunaville:Your post is logical and makes sense. Your proposition would work until you reach a geographical region where it is culturally unacceptable to hire minorities unless you are forced by government to do so. Then the issue becomes more problematic. Even in our modern world, you might be surprised how many such places still exist.

You are correct that some geographical regions exist where minority hiring isn't going to happen. My solution would be that the minorities should move to where enlightened employers will hire them. I know that's an inconvenience for the minorities but the end result would be that an entire geographical region would suffer. Or, if only a couple employers in those regions not prone to hiring minorities would actually go ahead and hire them, their success would overcome a lot of bigotry. I know more than one bigot who was overcome by greed - in other words, he saw the opportunity that existed by hiring a minority and the fact that he could make money. That goes a long way towards overcoming bigotry and a lot faster than any government mandate.

Look at professional sports. The teams that were willing to hire minorities and utilize them were more successful than the bigots. And suddenly bigotry wasn't profitable. Not a whole lot of bigots in professional sports - they cost owners profits.

The_Homeless_Guy:Silly Jesus: So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.

Mainly parents. I'm too lazy to pull up articles but one of the strongest predictors of academic performance is how often children are read to when babies/toddlers. If you spend 10 minutes a day reading to a kid everyday they will do much, much better when entering the school system. It really does all come down to parents.

Sadly 1/2 of children under the age of 5 are not read to on a daily basis, with minorities being overrepresented. It's sad when you give a toddler a book upside down and they have no frickin idea what to do with it (when kids who are read to will flip it around and start turning pages).

I suppose someone is going to come by and say that it's the White Man's fault that the individual minority parents choose not to engage their children with reading?

Silly Jesus:ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

what_now: I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

The_Homeless_Guy:Silly Jesus: So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.

Mainly parents. I'm too lazy to pull up articles but one of the strongest predictors of academic performance is how often children are read to when babies/toddlers. If you spend 10 minutes a day reading to a kid everyday they will do much, much better when entering the school system. It really does all come down to parents.

Sadly 1/2 of children under the age of 5 are not read to on a daily basis, with minorities being overrepresented. It's sad when you give a toddler a book upside down and they have no frickin idea what to do with it (when kids who are read to will flip it around and start turning pages).

I'm writing my thesis on health literacy. I've got about 30 sources, so far, that support this claim.

PallMall:dustygrimp: Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.

Those who "DESERVE" to get higher education should be judged on competency in the subjects being taught, not on perceived graduation rates. How do you know who's going to decide getting wasted is more important? Are you a goddamned wizard?

If you're an admissions officer, then you should be fired for being prejudiced and bigoted. I guarantee that the affirmative actions nuts would love to hear how you've instituted your own version.

ChuDogg:kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.