ExpandCollapse

New Member

Place God The Father at the top center point of the triangle.
Place Christ at the lower left side of the triangle.
Place The believer at the lower right side of the triangle.

Now draw a line from God the Father to The believer and make a arrow pointing at The believer name this line Justification

Next draw a line From Christ and pointing at The believe and name this line redemption.

Last draw a line from Christ pointing at God the Father and name this line propitiation.

Justification ponits down for it shows something God has done for us. We are justified by grace from god based on christ's sacrifice.

propitiation points up for christ propitiated the father by his death on our behalf.

last redemption is something jesus does for his people. he redeems us and sets us free.

Notice God the Father does one act. Christ does the other acts. We do nothing but receive.

Redemption,...the greek base word from where we get redeem, redeemer, redemption is "luo"

luo means to loose or loosen. It means to unbind armor or clothes. Or to humans loosen as a prisoner, to set free. The release of the prisoner means a "ramsom price" is paid.

this is where we get "lutron" which tells us how the redemption comes about. it meant the "ransom price" itself.

from this we get "lutroo" which means "to release with payment of price". anther close word is "lutrosis"..or set free, divorce, forgive

matt 20:28
The son of Man can not to be served but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many

titus 2:14
"who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

1 peter 1:18-19
You know that you were ransomed from futile ways...not with gold and slver...but with the blood of christ

hosea shows us a picture of this. gomer in the pits of sin...a slave to sin. Gomer had to be bought. Gomer now belonged to hosea...it came with a price. Gomer could not buy herself out. She had no say so...she was a slave.

Christ Paid With His Death...with his blood...
To Free Us.

We too were slaves to sin.

He Now Owns US...paid for with his blood.

What ramson is greater than this?
Can someone now take us from him?

Tell me a greater value then the Blood of God.

Salvation is from God. The price he paid will last forever. No one can out bid him. Salvation is forever.

ExpandCollapse

Member

Yes and ones salvation is by the Grace of God. He did not have to send His only begotten Son to bear our sins upon the cross, so that we may have life. A life that we did not have because of the deadness we were in, due to the fall of Adam.

Salvation is for our reconciliation with God. After our salvation we are a children of God, he is our Father. Salvation is what allows us to have that relationship with the Father. It is through that salvation(reconciliation) that we now have life. And that life is eternal. And that life is in Jesus Christ. And that life is from the moment that we first believe in Him, forever more,everlasting life. We are in Him He is in us. Now where once we were dead,we have Life, through Christ.

Salvation is right here, right now, forever more, by the Grace of God. Thank God.

ExpandCollapse

Active Member

I agree...eternal life would be conditional life if it could be lost or walked out on. The moment one put's faith in God, they become a new creature, i.e., they have eternal life. Not to say one can't stumble and walk away from their fellowship with God. Even in this state, the HS convicts the heart (I hate to admit, but I am speaking from experience). God chastens His children, and believe me, He does! Eternal life can be nothing but eternal life, regardless how man tries to make it conditional life.

ExpandCollapse

Active Member

Originally posted by here now:
After our salvation we are a children of God, he is our Father. Salvation is what allows us to have that relationship with the Father.

Click to expand...

This was also true of Lucifer and Adam and Eve - they were God's created Children. Except in their cases they were CREATED as sinless perfect NATURAL branches! We must be born again and "grafted in" and yet are still sinful and prone to err.

But just as we see that they faced the possibility of "fellowship revoked" - so also in Matt 18 Christ points to the real problem of "Forgiveness revoked" saying "SO shall my Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not.."

This is shown again in Ezek 18. It is seen again in Heb 6. It is shown repeatedly in the NT - but the Matt 18 example is too detailed and too specific to be ignored!

ExpandCollapse

Banned

Originally posted by here now: Salvation is one's reconciliation to God, the moment one first believes.
It is everlasting life in Jesus, the moment one first believes.

Click to expand...

That is not necessarily true! Scriptures tell us that faith can be lost. If you have faith in God, nothing can take you from God. But what happens if you lose your faith in God for yourself? So long as you maintained your faith in God, nothing could separate you from God. But if you lose interest (lose faith), then God is not obligated to keep you. You went south on your own! God did not help you go south!.

So, if you stop believing in God, God is not obligated to keep on saving you who no longer believe in him.

ExpandCollapse

Banned

Originally posted by webdog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, if you stop believing in God, God is not obligated to keep on saving you who no longer believe in him.

Click to expand...

Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation!

ExpandCollapse

Active Member

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, if you stop believing in God, God is not obligated to keep on saving you who no longer believe in him.

Click to expand...

Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]...only if God let's you!

ExpandCollapse

Member

Originally posted by BobRyan: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by here now:
After our salvation we are a children of God, he is our Father. Salvation is what allows us to have that relationship with the Father.

Click to expand...

This was also true of Lucifer and Adam and Eve - they were God's created Children. Except in their cases they were CREATED as sinless perfect NATURAL branches! We must be born again and "grafted in" and yet are still sinful and prone to err.

But just as we see that they faced the possibility of "fellowship revoked" - so also in Matt 18 Christ points to the real problem of "Forgiveness revoked" saying "SO shall my Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not.."

This is shown again in Ezek 18. It is seen again in Heb 6. It is shown repeatedly in the NT - but the Matt 18 example is too detailed and too specific to be ignored!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,
Lucifer, Adam and Eve were not covered by the blood of Jesus.They lost fellowship with God (Spiritual died), because of thier sins. We do not lose our salvation because of our sins, once we are saved. Thanks be to the Grace of God, for the sacrifice of His Son.

ExpandCollapse

Member

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, if you stop believing in God, God is not obligated to keep on saving you who no longer believe in him.

Click to expand...

Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]The unbeliever never had true faith in the first place.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Click to expand...

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Click to expand...

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Click to expand...

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

Click to expand...

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Click to expand...

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Click to expand...

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Click to expand...

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

ExpandCollapse

New Member

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

Click to expand...

I can do it Bob says! What's the standard you must keep Bob? The law is all you have so be perfect as my Heavenly Father is man! ISA 28:9 "Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?

ISA 28:10 For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."

ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.

Your use of Matt 18:23-35 is useless to you as the man is a servant when he comes in and when he goes out and his family suffers the same fate as him for what? For his sin.

ExpandCollapse

Banned

Originally posted by here now: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, if you stop believing in God, God is not obligated to keep on saving you who no longer believe in him.

Click to expand...

Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]The unbeliever never had true faith in the first place. </font>[/QUOTE]There is no way you can know that! You are simply parroting someone who once said that.

There is no way that you can know whether one's faith is the same today as it was yesterday, or will be tomorrow. There is no way for you to know that!

Quick Navigation

Support us!

The management of Baptist Board works very hard to make sure the community is running the best software, best design, and all the other bells and whistles that goes into a forum our size.Your support is much appreciated!