The Potomac News is reporting that Prince William County has seen another increase (albeit lower than last year’s increase) in the number of “Limited English Proficiency” (LEP) students who require ESOL programs to 13,409 students, 84% whose principal language is Spanish, while Manassas City Schools have seen their ESOL enrollments drop to 1,747 students with 2,148 identified as LEP.

Given that we spend an average of $10,496 per pupil on average in Prince William County schools, that would mean that we’re spending approximately $140,740,864 in state and local taxes educating students who are either legal or illegal immigrants. If we could only determine what portion of this population are illegal aliens, we’d be in a lot better shape to evaluate what the true costs of illegal immigration are in Prince William County and have a solid basis to determine what sort of public policy we need to have in regards to educating illegal aliens in our school system. If this is costing us $50 million a year, maybe a challenge to the Supreme Court decision Plyer v. Doe which establishes that our public schools are required to provide a free public education for illegal aliens makes economic sense.

At least Manassas City has seen a decrease in LEP enrollments, which results in a potential savings of over $1 million, using the same per-pupil costs. It’s hard to determine what impact local policies regarding illegal aliens has had on these enrollment figures, but there’s a case to be argued here that Help Save Manassas may have already saved area taxpayers millions of dollars.

And to think that federal elected officials are contemplating providing taxpayer funding to the tune of $5-10 million a year to the National Council of La Raza, for them to use in coddling illegal aliens. Where’s the return on investment in that?

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66 Comments

It sounds to me like Prince William County did all the work and City of Manassas reaped the benefits.

Notice the number of ESOL students who originate from the United States:

“The largest number of ESOL students, 8,811 students or 65.7 percent, originated from the United States, according to the enrollment data. The second-largest group, 1,657 students, or 12.4 percent, came from El Salvador. Other common countries of origin included Mexico, Honduras, Peru, Guatemala, Ghana, Bolivia, Pakistan, Puerto Rico, Korea and the Philippines.”

FHL has it right. The increase in PWC and decrease in Manassas City both correlate to the respective increase and decrease in the overall population of the schools. In other words, ESOL and LEP students still make up about the same percentage of the student population as they did a year ago.

Once again, though, you’re taking spurious data, making huge leaps of faith in your calculations, then writing a headline that’s not bourn out by the actual facts of the story. Your “case” that HSM is responsible for the decreases in Manassas City is laughable on its face. Your headline could just as easily have been “Did HSM fail to save taxpayers millions?” since PWC enrollment numbers in ESOL and LEP-identified students has increase.

Let’s give this a little time. I don’t think you can realistically hope to see true evidence of the “Rule of Law” resolution working (or not working) in just a couple of weeks. Some of these changes in the local demographic are simply economic reality. The housing market has slowed considerably (to put it mildly). Many of the illegals in the area worked in the construction industry. Fewer homes being built means fewer jobs for illegals, which in turn means illegals pack it up for greener pastures.

So, unless HSM wants to take credit for the housing slump too, I think I’d slow down on the hyperbole.

There has always been a lot of ‘border hopping’ between the 3 jurisdictions. Most of the ‘hopping’ tends to be out of the cities and into the county (and it not limited to the immigrant community). Perhaps this phenomena has to do with something as simple as more available housing in the county.

65% of the LEP students are from the USA. These kids are American citizens.

Additionally, ESOL percents change as the students acdvance through the grades. There are many fewer LEP students in middle and high school than in elementary school. This does not necessarily mean that there are fewer children from immigrant families. It just means that they are more proficient in English. More proficient does not imply full proficiency or mastery.

While ESOL is a good indicator for general dip-sticking, it is only an indicator and can cause one to draw very false conclusions. My conclusion: no conclusions!

OK Blue….let’s see what the figures are AFTER we “give it a while.” Surely you would concede though that the HSM and PWC “rule of law” resolution “welcome mat” (as they are) haven’t served as an “invitation” and INCREASED the number of illegal alien students whose education we fund.

I would think it a safe bet though that many of those who, like Ricardo Juarez and Nancy Lyal, think of PWC as a “racist cesspool” would pack up stakes and head on, wouldn’t you? Illegal residents perhaps, but illegal does not necessarily equate to stupid.

Another interesting statistic would be the relative cost to educate an ESOL student as compared to an English speaking student. I believe the difference would be quite interesting. The fact remains though, we ARE a nation of laws and until that law is changed, we will be paying the bill.

The question then becomes of the one originated (born) in the United States, where did their parents come from and how did arrive in this Country. Given that the second largest group is from El Salvador it would seem logical most of the students born here are of Salvadorian decent. How many of those are here under the protective status granted time and time again by the
Bush Administration.

As for the Housing bust (it’s past slump and going fast) it is a direct result of the efforts of HSM. Manassas and Woodbirdge had been some of the best real estate markets in the country. Now both are now at or near the top of the foreclosure list. That being said the boom which we experienced was a direct result of our neighborhoods, and schools filling with people who frankly should not be here. Some are here illegally, some legally because of the Bush Administrations desire to import cheap labor.

I believe that the per pupil cost for ESOL is about 3k more than a regular student not receiving services. Operative word here is ‘believe.’ That is the amount I was recently told.

The per pupil base cost quoted in the paper is an average, however. This average is derived including all regular education, special education, ESOL, alternative education, etc. Some of the special education is extremely expensive per student when considering severely handicapped students.

I don’t know all the details of the fuzzy math used to calculate per pupil costs but I think it is safe to say that Johnny Q Public Regular Ed isn’t costing the tax payer 10 grand a year.

You could call the county or state board of ed and ask to be provided the information.

Billyboy, that’s absurd! The housing slump was anticipated by anyone with half a brain and the least bit of familiarity with the real estate market in this area. The slump is a result of the incredibly insane mortgage market with it’s “creative financing” policies over the past few years as the interest rates were kept at an historic low by the Federal Reserve. That created an explosive demand which sent housing prices (and assessments) through an unrealistic roof, and a glut in the housing market with construction going into non-stop overtime. Well, those assessments are coming down now, to realistic levels, and that glut is having its affect on inventory…so people are stuck with unrealistic mortgages on properties which are no longer worth what is owed on them. Add to that the “creative financing” with balloons having come due and more to come due soon…well, you’d have to be a real idiot not to realize just WHO and WHAT caused all these foreclosures. Hint: It wasn’t HSM.

I don’t believe Greg read far enough down into the article to discern the correct information:

“The difference is that this year, more students have moved to “post-monitor” status, meaning they no longer require any ESOL services, but were previously served by the school division, Superintendent Gail Pope said in a School Board meeting this week.

“This year, 216 students in Manassas city schools fall in the “post-monitor” category, compared to 91 students last year.

“That shows that this student population has improved their English proficiency and that is very good news,” Pope said.”

Many people predicted a housing bust, after artificially inflated prices of 2004-05. In addition, creative mortgages were bought into by people who don’t know what it is to live within your means (without turning your house into a flophouse). HSM can’t be blamed for greedy builders, lenders and consumers who now must pay the piper.

Yes, country of origin of the parents and I just do not know how you would ever obtain this information. I am not sure it is even obtainable.

I am not ready to assign any cause/effect relationship to the housing market crisis and HSM. I believe it is a complex national phenomena and has been predicted by economic prognosticators for several years. Too many people were encouraged and recruited to buy homes they could not afford.

For several decades Prince William County was the fastest growing county in the nation. The surfeit of affordable housing made us very susceptible to the free fall we are now experiencing. The ‘have nots’ thought they had become the ‘haves.’ Economic conditions failed to prop up this illusion.

Immigrant families appear to have been the hardest hit in this area’s free fall because their economic stability was entirely too dependent on factors beyond their control and understanding.

I’ve had interesting conversations with parents at soccer/basketball games. There is a lot of anger out there about funding for ESOL. The parents feel that their kids are getting “short changed”. In other words, the money that could go into better education for citizen’s children is being pumped into ESOL for students who are not here legally(and/or parents) and are not even proficient in their own language. Then everything is brought down to the lowest denominator so to speak.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

All,

If you want to see a parent’s face turn red and hear an angry response, just go to a soccer game and mention the funding for ESOL.

It would be interesting if a tally of the county’s/city’s foreclosures could be obtained which included the name(s) of the persons who had the mortgage and were in default. I don’t think the rate of foreclosures in this area was very high prior to the illegal invasion. It seems that because of the influx of illegals into the area in the past few years and the recent dramatic slowdown in the construction industry that we are seeing homes going into default. I have seen for myself at the height of the “boom” two years ago in my neighborhood, Latinos outbidding each other for homes. One home sold to a Latino buyer for $470,000 and two weeks later it was sold to another Latino buyer for $489,000. The same type of situation occurred on the same street whereby one house sold to a Latino for $455,000 and sold a month later to another Latino for $475,000. That house is now up for sale (through a Latino realtor) after being occupied less than 2 years. Maybe that no interest, no papers, no salary verification loan is coming due??

I really hope the “Rule of Law” resolution has some effect. I’m simply stating that it seems a little overblown to start claiming just months after its inception and weeks from its approval that “HSM may have save taxypayers millions.”

Dolph:

Your stats are pretty good. I believe schools in the county are given ~$3000 per ESOL student in their school as part of the site-based management funding formulas (they’re given $x for each student, then special needs–ESOL, special education, gifted programs, speech therapy, etc.–are layered on to that figure. How those funds are spent, though, are actually at the discretion of the individual school’s administration. Yes, they must provide ESOL services and must meet certain guidelines there, but there is not hard and fast rule that every dollar a single student brings to the school must be spent on that student. That also works the other way as well–your “average” student may not get the full benefit of all the dollars (s)he brings in the funding formula.

Interesting how Help Save Manassas, and Greg L in particular, always claim they’re only concern is “illegal immigration.” but here we find Greg openly celebrating the supposed loss of ALL immigrants and ESL speakers in Manassas schools.

Anon, you fail to mention that the loss of legal immigrants were probably “aiding and abetting” the criminal illegal aliens! Of course we wouldn’t want those people here either! They would be felons wouldn’t they?

I have no particular thoughts on the subject of ESOL. I am not familiar with the ESOL model used in elementary school where the greatest percent of LEP kids are.

Generally speaking, the LEP kids are going to be there, regardless of ESOL classes. These same kids are going to be tracked under the mandate of NCLB. The schools must meet the conditions set forth by this federal legislation. Schools have very little wiggle room in dealing with this issue.

I have harped on the issue of NCLB since I first hit this blog. No one has even blinked. If people are angry over the amount of time and money being spent on sub-groups, specifically ESOL, they need to lobby their congressional representative to NOT re-authorize NCLB. Gaining local control over this issue is the place to start.

I am curious. What do those who are angry think should be done, knowing the federal mandates? Kids will be in ESOL classes or they will be in regular classes. There are only 2 choices here.

I found “Turn PW Blue’s” comment at 9:24 particularly elucidating. Up until now I could not understand why the “educational” community was not entirely behind our efforts to repel this invasion of parasites. Now it’s clear. For each parasite, the school gets some chump change to use as it sees fit. For a classroom of 20 ESOL studs, they get $60K (for your dimocrats, that’s 20 X $3000). They hire an ESOL teacher at $40K, and that leaves them $20 K to play with. They think they’re making money on them.

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Fill out this petition to end birthright citizenship. The guy who was interviewed in the podcast I posted is moving this along. Pass this link along to everyone you know. Once you validate your e-mail you can see the results.

I have not heard any of the local educational community speak to the issue of illegal immigrants. In fact, to do so would be most inappropriate.

You obviously have no concept of school budgeting or site based management. There is no money to ‘play around with.’ That ‘playing around’ might involve hiring a part time teacher to reduce class size. School budgets are closely monitored and must meet with approval of the area superintendant.

You further exibit your ignorance by referring to the ESOL population as ‘parasites.’ While this may be your own personal opinion, please do not use that term here. You cheapen the hard work of many people because outsiders come here and brand everyone as racist when reading remarks like that. I find your words offensive.

Up until Corey Stewart came on board as chair, the school board had a good working relationship with the BOCS. Drs. Kelly and Walts were able to give input into to the county on what the school system needed. When Stewart was elected last year, that ended. He asked for no input — he ignored them.

Dolph–why would it be inappropriate for the ed. community to speak to the issue of illegal immigration? Parents need to know everything that’s going on the the schools. Children of illegal aliens in our schools have an effect on our childrens’ learning. Schools better not withhold information. As far as I’m concerned, ALL information is pertinent.

You have to remember that the area’s housing boom in mostly due to the influx during the last 2-3 years of Latino’s who would outbid each other for housing. I used to check the Sunday PWC supplement to the Washpost and probably 75-80 percent of the houses being purchased were by persons with Latino names. These houses were purchased in PWC, Manassas City and Manassas Park. They were willing to pay any price for housing (I make an above average salary) and wondered how they could purchase a 600,000 dollar house. NOW WE KNOW!

I think it would be MOST appropriate for the educational community to speak out on the effects on schools due to illegal immigration. We are stuck by law to educate illegals and how does it not affect school budgets and standards of educating our children. These people enter a community en mass, cause overcrowding of the schools and lower the standards of education. How can a legitimate school budget be established when you don’t know from year to year how many students a particular school will have. Say, you had an influx of 1,000 more students than anticipated this year and the majority of them don’t speak English, where is the money going to come from when it is claimed that the average cost of educating a student is 10,000 dollars or so. By the same token, if the recently passed resolution causes these illegals to move on (and it appears it is happening) then less money is required for upcoming years. You can’t pull a school budget out of the air. I understand there is no legal obsticle in the state of Virginia to determine the legal status of a student when they are registered. You must educate all illegals by law and it would be a good thing to inform the taxpayers what the cost of educating this group is.

For starters, schools do not have the data as to who is legal and who is illegal. Secondly, schools have to work with those who live within the boundaries. Why alienate part of your population?

I don’t think schools should withhold information but I do feel they need to remain neutral about political issues over which they have no control.

I didn’t tell anyone how to speak. I asked them not to use the term ‘parasite.’ In this case, you reap what you sow. If that kind of designation is used about a population group in general, then I will not have much sympathy when someone comes on here screaming racist at all of us.

Not all illegal immigrants require ESOL services. I honestly do not know what it is you want the schools to do or say. Are you asking them to take a political position?

You aren’t going to like this next part, so don’t shoot the messenger…under the current law….Ricardo is just as entitled to be in school as Jane. Ricardo’s status is irrelevant. Ricardo’s parents have just as much right to say ‘our’ schools as your or I do.

Legislation or a Supreme Court reversal might change all this. However, until it does, that is the law.

Again, help me understand what it is you want the schools to do. I see them as being between a rock and a hard place on this issue.

“It sounds to me like Prince William County did all the work and City of Manassas reaped the benefits. ”

Don’t kid youself. I live in the city and have seen no benefit to the resolution. Yes a family moved out of the basement apartment behind me but they were replaced by another group of men the following day.

As for the decrease in ESOL students in Manassas I would attribute the decrease to the housing market. Many are walking away from their homes because they can’t afford them. I know of 5 short sale or foreclosed homes in my small area of the neighborhood. All of these homes were purchased at the peak of the market by Latinos. I expect that there will be more foreclosures to follow.

Dolph the “local educational community” has indicated their position on the issue of illegal immigrants with their actions. Over the summer and as the fall school year approached the teachers, principals, etc were in a very active recruitment campaign for fear the resolution would affect illegal students attending school. Besides sending out letters, making announcements on spanish speaking radio stations, articles in the local newspapers, they even went to latino stores and the like with candy, balloons, etc. and approached people to try and get the word out. WHY all this effort? JOBS and money obviously. Lower enrollment means less teachers and staff needed, and less Federal and county funds coming to the school. The more illegals the better. When they could be focusing on the benefit of smaller class size, less overcrowding, less non-english speaking students slowing down the learning of native speaker students, they are just trying to protect their jobs. Actions speak louder than words.

Thank you Dolph for your comments. The day that children are referred to as “parasites” is a sad day indeed and although I have disagreed with many points here, it is imperative that the debate not decline to racial slurs.

Sorry to be a contrarian, but how is “parasite” a racial slur? I don’t approve of the “thought police”. I personally wouldn’t call these children parasites but they are pawns and are serving a purpose for the illegal aliens. That’s what’s sad.

Dolph and John Locke–why don’t you just show by example instead of reprimanding?

I didn’t tell anyone how to speak. I asked them not to use the term ‘parasite.’ In this case, you reap what you sow. If that kind of designation is used about a population group in general, then I will not have much sympathy when someone comes on here screaming racist at all of us.

The pro-illegal supporters haven’t screamed “racist” at every turn? That is the number 1 word that is being used by them in every situation. How many times was it used by the “bleeding hearts” at the BOCS meeting on the 16th? LA RAZA IS ALIVE AND WELL!

Jane and Ricardo’s situation IS revalnt. Jane’s parents are paying their full share of property taxes either as an owner of a home or through the rent they are paying to a property owner. If Ricardo is an illegal and his parents are sharing a house with 4 or 5 other families, then the property tax is only being paid by one family. The four others are getting a “free ride” at our expense. At today’s rates, the school is being shortchanged. Instead of getting say 12,000 or 15,000 dollars from property taxes from 4 or 5 families, they are only getting 1/4th or 1/5th of the amount they should be.

I’m the “anonymous” who referred to the illegal aliens and their progeny (whether born here or not) as “parasites” and I stand by that moniker. I’m not referring to any particular race. I’m referring to organisms who, according to our laws, are not supposed to be here and through their presence are sucking our schools, our community’s, and our country’s economic resources dry, and will eventually kill their host. You call them what you want, I’ll continue to call them parasites, or parasitos, or parasitskies, or … . If you can’t stand calling a spade a friggin’ shovel, go to another blog that hides facts behind benign euphemisms.

Why would you want to validate their comments and accusations by using language that reinforces exactly what they are complaining about?

I have no clue who you are but surely you grasp the concept that when you use derrogatory language to describe an entire class of people (or students, in this case) , there is going to be some fallout.

Monticup,

I do try to show by example when I post here. I do not care how whoever it was thinks…but since this is a public blog, I will ask people not to use inflammatory language about others. If they chose not to comply with my request, there is certainly nothing I can do about it. However, one should also not be surprised with undesirable outcomes from reckless speech.

I just know parents are angry. When you know there are limited resources and bigger slices of the pie go to ESOL, that can create anger with parents.

Please educate me on NCLB.

By the way, back in “the day” when my husband and I went to school, there were no ESOL classes. My husband learned English through school and home. I guess you could say “the old fashioned way”. My friend’s family also had to learn English this way. I will say they speak English better than the ones taking ESOL. Just something to add to the conversation. I’m also curious if other countries provide special language classes for people who speak English but need to learn the native tongue.

When I was in school there was no special ed, esol, no special classes of any sort that I was ever aware of. But that was back when dirt was forming on the earth.

Seriously, as to NCLB, it is so comprehensive, so complex, so government regulated, I cannot educate you on it. I would simply have no idea where to begin. I also do not know probably 1/10th of its implications.

Basically it is federal legislation that hi-jacked education standards from the state and local governments of this country. There are some 29 subgroups who must make annual yearly progress (AYP). The ‘big 4′ groups that seem to affect our area are: special ed, ethnicity, poverty and LEP.

Each year schools must demonstrate that x % of their students in the subgroups have passed the sol tests in reading and math. Each year that number rises. If the school doesn’t meet the standard, it doesn’t make AYP. If the school doesn’t make AYP for a certain number of years (3 I think) then the school is basically labeled a failure. It doesn’t matter how well the kids do who aren’t ‘members’ of the 4 sub-groups.

This is a gross over-simplification of what NCLB is all about but this is what is driving the entire educational system these days. Fear of not making AYP. The school systems put the heat on the principals and the principals put the heat on the teachers who are tap dancing a mile a minute to attempt to make sure all the kids labeled in these sub-groups pass the sol tests as well as the non special group kids.

I hope this helped answer your questions. I don’t think I did a very good job. When something is written in both government-ese and educational-ese, it becomes unreadable so I will not give you a website. Volumes have been written on this subject and very little of it makes sense to anyone.

Learning a language is the sole responsibility of the person needing to learn the language. It should never be placed on taxpayers. It is called willingness. If you want to reside in another country, you must take full responsibility in getting educated and learning the language yourself. There are plenty of books, etc. to do this. There is NO excuse!

Illegal aliens and their ESOL student kids are parasites! If that’s inflammatory, let the inflamation begin. They were sent here by their failed governments and they’re sucking the blood out of this country.

Just as NCLB is a federal mandate that should be removed, so is Plyler vs. Doe.

Is education a right under our Constitution? No - yet that is what the Plyler legislation claimed.

Plyler vs. Doe can never stand as settled law as it has no sound basis in the 14th Amendement.

Plyler is way overdue for reversal.

The “Dream” act amnesty is nothing more than the natural and predictable extention of Plyler … giving foreign nationals the right to masquerade as citizens.

Every attempt at “Immigration Reform” i.e. amnesty for illegal aliens is driven by the fear factor fact that someone will wake up and notice that we have current immigration laws that are being ignored.

Funny how that works … while it is hard to imagine any school or school district choosing to ignore the current on-the-books law of Plyer without severe penalty, equaly on-the-books immigration laws are treated as if they don’t exist.

Your last paragraph speaks volumes. If the Feds are enforcing the law on others….then the boot heel comes out. If the Feds are asked to enforce their own laws…well….you know what happens. Seems as though it is a ‘do as I say not do as I do’ situation.

Good lay explanation of NCLB Dolph. I’ve heard some say that No Child Left Behind has become no kid gets ahead. Kids with potential (and even average kids) are potentially stagnated because the law says 100% of all children in all sub groups must pass (meet the minimum passing score). The bureaucrats in DC (on both side of the aisle) have meddled far too deep and usurped both the State and local authorities.

NCLB is another example of the federal government mandating something and then it falls of the local government to pay for it. NCLB certainly damages housing values because of labeling neighborhood schools as failures when the ESOL students (or any other subgroup) can’t pass the test. ESOL costs are staggering and you know something else is not getting funded. There is only so much money to go round.

Let’s also not forget that NCLB encourages mediocrity. The goal is to get everyone to the passing line. More concern is paid to those below the line than those who perform well above the line. A 99% is just as good as a 71%. The result? Children who test in the top percentiles in math in 3rd grade are actually slipping by the time they reach middle school. So, we are encouraging a nation of mediocre students. Keep in mind that NCLB was based on the program Bush set up when in Texas when he was governor. It’s no coincidence that Texas ranks in the bottom quartile when it comes to education. What a great model to roll out to the rest of the nation, right?

It also doesn’t help that our School Board and BOCS have buried their heads behind the standing funding agreement when it comes to schools. What a stupid concept. Let’s fund our schools based on a decade-old standing formula rather than on the actual budgetary needs. Sure, it means less contention between the School Board and BOCS, but at what cost? PWCS’s per pupil expenditure is the lowest in the metro Washington region. This year, the spending per pupil *decreased*. Let’s say 10% of the students in PWC schools are illegal or the children of illegals. Taking them out of the mix still leaves us with a per pupil expenditure lower than any other jurisdiction in Northern Virginia, so getting rid of all the illegals (as unrealistic as that may be) is not the only answer. While simply throwing more money at the schools is not a cure all, there needs to be a rational examination of what it takes to teach our children and prepare them for the future. We have overcrowded schools because no one planned for or funded a realistic capital improvements program. We are losing some of best teachers to surrounding jurisdictions because the pay is better in Fairfax or the cost of living is lower in Fauquier. We are letting our best and brightest slip into mediocrity while making unrealistic demands on lower performing students to miraculously cross some line. This isn’t anything altruistic. Today’s children are tomorrows doctors, scientists, teachers, leaders, and soldiers. Shortchanging them now shortchanges the future of the country we love.

This whole debate regarding ESOL gets me, and my co-workers thinking. When 65 percent of PWC’s ESOL are born and raised in the US. I say NO EXCUSE, down right pathetic….5 years of living, watching TV, and we still can’t speak English?????????? Yet at the same time I had more than 1 parent come to parent/teacher conferences with their k childs’ ESOL test results in hand and tell me that they do NOT want their child to ever be in an ESOL class. So there are those that see the English to be impt. for their children, and they I can embrace

Lafayette, of course I have! In fact, there seem to be some on this blog…you know…the ones that talk a lot of nonsense (we all know who they are). The reason they get all crazy is because I am lifting up their smoke screen that they have been hiding under all this time. That is when they start calling people names.