This year’s annual meeting wasn’t exactly something to write home about

In recent years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have come to expect much from Watchtower’s annual meeting – an ostensibly corporate event that has been increasingly used to unveil new publications, or new “understandings of scripture.”

But trying to find meaningful, interesting news from yesterday’s 2016 annual meeting is decidedly more challenging.

Essentially there will be a new updated songbook to consolidate all the individual songs that have been released since the last songbook was released in 2009 (in a grey, deluxe cover to match the new Bibles). A couple of videos were shown about the new Warwick headquarters. It was announced that next year’s annual meeting will include the dedication ceremony for Warwick, and will be broadcast to all assembly halls. And, er, that was pretty much it. (You have to feel sorry for the audience that sat through several hours of talks just to receive those morsels of information.)

Something that is perhaps worthy of note is the announcement that the updated songbook, titled “Sing Out Joyfully” to Jehovah, is only available in printed version on request. More specifically, Witnesses will have to ask their group overseer for a printed version rather than simply picking one up at the literature counter, as the following paragraph from a letter to congregations makes clear:

In the not-so-distant past when I was assigned to organize the inventory of congregation literature, we always kept a healthy stock of songbooks just in case visiting Witnesses or interested persons needed one.

These days, however, it seems Watchtower is being far more frugal with how its printed “spiritual food” is being dispensed. The fact that costs are expressly cited as a reason for not handing out a new release indiscriminately lends further weight to claims that not all is well with the organization’s finances. This, in turn, would suggest that the halcyon days of new books and brochures being released to much fanfare by “the Slave” may be drawing to a close.

168 Responses to The 2016 annual meeting: The most uneventful in years?

It’s as pathetic as a lemonade stand that can’t sell he lemonade because it has charity status and yet they can’t afford to give the lemonade away. People show up and they just direct them to a website where they are shown how they can make the lemonade themselves.

The witness’s have to smell that things are not well. Drastic reductions in printing and a culling of 28 branches proves that “her waters are drying up” .

Meanwhile, a truely faithful slave is coming out with a new book. Hurray!
“Food at the proper time ” clearly Charles Darwin is blessing our efforts…

I hope you do as well as Ray Franz did! Try “Not” to get into too much detail in the Doctrines as that is where Ray “Lost” alot of readership as the “Worldly Ones” (tee hee) wont understand! Somehow keep your new book “Humorous and Exciting” both of which might be tough….but necessary to sell units…….and of course it is going to be the “Feedback” on Amazon which will “Drive” the Sales……try to leave the “Reader” pondering! Best Wishes for your Success!

I keep telling my mother this she will not listen, according to her they are just being more modern, as nobody reads books anymore. I have shown her Jackson lying under oath, the stories of global child abuse scandals,even the NGO thing, pah! She just dismisses it as apostate lies, also the GB lying in the ARC she says the videos have been altered/doctored cos you can fake anything these days!! And omg! I told her about the elders book, her and my dad asked the elders about it. They both did this weird pitying laugh and told me the elders said “don’t be ridiculous there’s no such thing” they told me to ” from now on, only get your info from jw.org it’s the only truth about us” words just fail me as to how stupid they are and how the elders lied again!!

I forgot to mention the letter you printed of the mum to her son( terminating their relationship) well that’s my mum and my brother four years on they still haven’t changed their minds, so that’s the level I’m dealing with here

Everybody knows where you’re at with that one, Mandy. A husband and wife team can be formidable.
With me, it got to the stage where the look of panic on my mothers face when I’d walk in with yet another piece of paper, well, I just had to stop it. At the end of the day she’s not completely rabid with it and not hurting anyone but I do hate what she unknowingly supports. That’s the hard part.

Sadly…..just another example of an “Honest Attempt” to get thru to your Parents that they are being “Played!”…..Remember, at certain times….many who are now Gone out the Truth…..couldnt be reached on any subject! Give your Parents time……hopefully they will see the light and if not…….its their right to go down the Path of Confusion! And yes….it is all lies and deceit….but now falling apart at the seams……..they cant keep this downward spiral much longer!

Looks like these court cases with child abuse are taking there tolls on the Org, At this point a few more cases against them which looks likely considering those coming out and telling all will break them entirely. I agree about the charity thing, they take and not give.. There has to be something give soon that will make all those in the Org have a serious think about it.. As Russell stated that if the money was to run out, then they would know that Gods spirit was no longer with them..They will be passing a donation plate around next with some new light telling them so…
Funny how they still manage to be buying all these mansion type house in nice locations tho. Must be great for the some but for those digging deep every week and for what?????

I remember when i was 16 i visited the new Bethel at Athens Greece.A Greek JW-friendly ice-cream company called kri-kri gave free ice-creams for all of us JW visitors who helped for free to build this project. gues what? in the end when we were leaving they asked us to pay whatever amount possible for the ice-creams. And 3 years later they sold the entire Bethel in the greek government … now the buildings are used to help people with alcoholism. after they sold it the prices of real estate dropped. they made a very good deal out of the free laboure of our brothers … they know were to build and when to sell … very good company indeed …. dont tell me now they dont have money ! ! ! cheers Lloyd 😉

It is so funny that they aren’t handing out free books for everyone and instead encouraging members to use the e-version instead. I remember just a few years before I left when tablets were becoming so popular and they borg was beginning to make their publications available in an electronic version there was strong counsel from the platform to stick to the printed version at meetings and in the ministry. That electronic devices were fine for personal study, but they were not to be used at the Kingdom Hall. Now they have totally flipped on that too. lol How are all these toilet scrubbers affording all these devices, a tablet for every family member that is attending the KH??? They want all their faithful members to view the internet as Satan’s world while demanding they now use that same internet to save themselves printing costs. hahahaha I can’t imagine how it is backfiring 🙂

It just seems to me that organizationally we have accepted we are are in the new millenium kicked off by the year 2000 and are making the most of the technological advances that are available here now in the future!

I told my my wife of four years (a non-JW) about Russell’s comment about viewing a lack of funds as a sign that Jehovah was no longer backing the work which she pointed out as silly! I hadn’t thought it silly and illogical until she pointed it out but it is! As a household if we experience hard economic times should we conclude God is not with us? Hardly! Isn’t that why we kicked CTR out of the FDS?!! Kidding! Just kidding!

Timothy…….Kidding or not…..I see your thinking we “Think” your in the “All Knowing about the Truth” by using cute terms like JFR AND FDS…….but since I was a witness for so many years I am NOT! Your now a Jehovahs Witness in good standing and on this website??? Me thinks not!!! FDS???? Are you kidding me???? Where did you pick up that little diddy from? I think your possibly from the FLDS and are on here watching!!! They say that they have PLANTS ON THE WEB WATCHING AND RECORDING EVERYTHING (The WTBTS is wayyy to paranoid! Really!) And some of the stuff you say here kinda proves your a Mole?

you keep talking about Russell as you really knew about him……he wasnt thrown out anywhere…….just sent to San Diego on an Estate where he is buried (there is controversy there too…ooohhhh more fodder for the idiot witnesses to gossip about) and he used the Bible Students monies to pay for his retirement and estate and burial?????? Who cares! And most of these supposed former witnesses dont have any recollection of any of that as they didnt talk about it….but my GrandFather did…….and stupidly defended Russell and Rutherford and all the rest until the day he died……and yes my GrandFather had his Funeral at the Toronto Bethel……..so I think me knows a little fact….lol The Truth isnt the Truth and that is FACT! I think your just one of them in sheeps clothing? lol

@ArJay – I imagine after you posted this you had a major lightbulb moment realizing that you wrote Russell instead of Rutherford for San Diego? Russell had been dead and buried for over a decade when the Beth’s were planned and built. Russell is buried near a masonic-esque pyramid and in a cemetery located next door to the Freemasons center. It is fact that the WtSoc attempted to get permission to bury Rutherford at either Beth Sarim and then Beth Shan–both failed.

Perhaps WT has accepted it’s the 21st century and is taking advantage of current technology. OR it could be that they’re up to their old TWO-FACED ways again – being AGAINST something when it applies to the “world”, but FOR the SAME thing when it works in THEIR favor. Like, ohhh, let’s see, PERSECUTION. When they are the victims, they scream bloody murder and sprint all the way to the Supreme Courts. Yet, much like the “WICKED SLAVE” in Jesus’ own parable, when it’s THEIR turn to show mercy, none is to be found. If you’re a non-JW (specifically an ex-JW) in a JW household, it’s OPEN SEASON for RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!!! Even WITHIN the cult, there is BULLYING (a form of persecution) of members by the ELDERS.

During the meltdown of my family in 2009 my oldest daughter was disfellowshipped and moved back into our house. We treated her with love and respect….but I do agree that it is not an easy experience. During my disfellowshipping I did my best not to impose my presence on friends and family and to respect my status as a disfellowshipped person. I missed only a handful of meetings in the year and 10 months I was df’d and often I’d get an encourageing smile from some brother or sister…it helped. However, the experience is one that I barely survived. I was overcome with sadness and suicidal. I personally think that the elders need better training when it comes to looking for repentance in an erring one. To really understand what motivates a person and what is in their heart takes much empathy and time to really get to know them. I note that we say that there is no set time limit before ones may be reinstated but it seems a minimum of a year is stuck in the minds of the elders (see the current Watchtower study for this week). I note that in the accounts at 1 & 2 Corinthians from which we draw our practice of disfellowshipping that only a few months had passed from the time Paul recommends disfellowshipping in 1 Cor until he recommends they confirm their love for the repentant brother. I wish we would give more attention to this part of the account.

There is no indication that he was df’d by a committee of three overlords either. Per 2 Cor 2:6 shows that it was by a majority in the congregation that he was reproved. The entire JW version of the disfellowshipping process is unscriptural and the practice as it stands now was actually condemned by the organization prior to the 1950’s.

Winston is correct. There is nothing scriptural about the present judicial process. The making of numerous secret rules is exactly the same action of the Scribes and Pharisees. The failure to allow an accused person any help or to inform them of the case against them is exactly the same rules of the Inquisition.

Yes WS is correct about disfellowshipping, and the org. has also misused scriptures to support shunning. Not eating with, not greeting, has been taken totally out of context from its original meaning. It takes some research to find all of this but it can be done. They have even misused the account about Aaron and his sons, that we’ve heard so much about lately. They don’t tell you that Aaron was performing priestly duties during that time and that is why he couldn’t show evidence of mourning. They also don’t tell how the scriptures show the reassurance Aaron was given that the “brothers” would do the mourning. The GB are just hoping that no one is reading beyond the verses they offer or if people are that they will feel they aren’t qualified to take a different stance.

This organization proves that man has dominated man to his injury, time and time again.

The scripture clearly states this man was “boasting” about his sin. I’m fine with removing him from the congregation (seems like a creepy man)! Its the “over-reaching” and including family that goes way too far! Also, if people want to get technical & mired down in nit-picky details then sisters cant wear Pearls or Gold jewelry & braids are off limits too 🙁
I love my pearls & a braid on a hot day is the best! 🙂
Why doesn’t the ORG focus on these scriptures? Ecc 8:15 and Ecc 10:19 Hmmmm, maybe because these scriptures are bad for their business?

I should clarify – I faded years ago 🙂 I was born in (4th generation). Its extremely difficult because I am surrounded by active & non active JW family. I have found so much comfort from online forums.

Sorry! I was talking to Timothy Lawson who is watching this site and continueing to inject WTBTS Theories! The Society will eventually Implode after the ones in Management GUT THE MANY MANY BANK ACCOUNTS WITH MILLIONS IN THEM…..all the Jw’s are involved with now is a “Cash-Grab” which the little publishers/lambs dont want to realize as their lives have no value to the ones @ Corporate other than to continue to “Bark” silly orders to test them to see if they comply? Sad Sad Existence in a “New Order” which will never come!

Because of the nature of this forum I’m not sure if your comments are tongue in cheek or in full seriousness. I hope they are in earnest. My feeling is that to focus on the evident financial difficulties in the organization as evidence of Jehovah’s lack of support will not be persuasive to we faithful Witnesses since the strategies the FDS in dealing with them are faith inspiring.

Timothy… I don’t view the financial position of the WT as an indication of anything other than being part of the process of the exposure of an abusive cult.

Abuse means ‘exploitation of trust’.

Witness’s have been made fools of. You can’t walk into a KH anymore without tripping over a pile of child abuse cases which have been hidden under the carpet for 50yrs. Cases of the type that gods representatives on earth have drilled into witnesses, only happen in false religions.

False means – made to imitate something in order to deceive.

It’s been said to me that I don’t have the strength to accept jehovah, as if to say a witness has strength. It’s actually the other way around. By not accepting jehovah, I lose nothing, but gain everything. Everything that life has to offer is there for me. The WT want to take that option off me and use me for their own ends. Steal my life.

Lets review – it’s a Cult, and not just an ordinary one. You have to be prepared to fly that plane into that building. You have to be prepared to die for your religious beliefs and to hell with your four young, now motherless children. A young mother to satisfy the needs of an abusive Cult. Nothing like a blood martyr to strengthen the belief of the deluded, and the GB know that.

‘Faith inspired’, you say Tim. Wrong, my friend. Absolutely everything the WT does now is to ensure it’s own survival in the technological age and the only faith they can count on is the continuing Faith (believing in something without any evidence) of their poor followers.

But take heart, you’re not alone. All cults are easily scrutinized now and the scrutinize-rs are waking up.

But can I ask a favor? Could I please borrow your copy of CT Russell’s Finished Mystery? I want to read the words Jesus read in 1919 and then, as a result, declared all other religions in apostasy. That must be the most powerful book written since the Bible and I’m very excited about it. Surely, those words can’t and haven’t been altered in any way whatsoever. Who would dare!? To disagree with anything in that book would be to disagree with Jesus himself, would it not? Every Witness should have a copy and carry it close to their heart and never let it out of their sight.

At these annual meetings, the WT would often have some ‘statistics’ and boast about their ‘works’ in U.S. or some of the 8 islands in the U.S. zone. Must not be good numbers to report now-a-days. Their main work is their ‘headquarters buildings’ now. I am trying to find any Christian ‘building’ work in Greek scriptures. Ha!

The lack of building work in the biblical record is likely a result of the persecution of early Christianity by both Judaic anti Christian forces as well as the Roman Empire. In the light of such difficulties it is logical that building work would not be a feature of early Christianity. So its absence in the NT cannot be seen as unscriptural.

Oubliette: You have him! He is a JW Spin Doctor and dont know why he is even on here….except to defend the Society? He is looking up the “Finished Mystery” on the web..as fast as he can……as he is totally lost in the conversations of Past Presidents of the International Bible Students/Jehovahs Witnesses. He claims to be active (?) but of what I really dont know? Lol

Tim
Pull your head out of your ass! The governing body are the biggest false prophets in the history of mankind . No other cult or sect has predicted the end of the world more than GB. Or as the HISTORY CHANNEL said ” Jehovahs Witnesses predicted the end of the world 9 times. ” According to Deuteromy 18:20-22, false prophets were to be put to death not followed. To take their literature to the door makes you a sharer in what what is wicked and personally blood guiltily .

Spot On … Garrett!
This Tim guy is just fishing around……and I will say again….a little “Mole” trying to get as much imfo as he can….cause the JW’s are 100% PARANOID and watching everything now……its rather humorous/sad. Tim…just go away!

Yes and with everyone on the congregation wifi during meetings, administrators such as the WBTS can devel in to see what their sheep are queuing about. I’m no expert but I’ve been told many times not to use public wifi because people can steal your information via packets. Also administrators can look at your cookies. And we all know how the WT likes to see what people are looking at online. Probably jwsurvey and jwfacts.

It is “Crystal Clear” now, that the WTB&T Society is starting to “Crumble” as I imagine the true figures of Lost Active Publishers would “Shock” everyone at the Assembly…or whatever they call it now?
As my wise Father “quietly” told me, when telling him that I was considering leaving in 1976……….”The Story remains the Same….it is the ‘Dates” which keep changing!” I am sure they will continue the “Doomsday Armageddon Story” which is no longer “Scary” but there is little left to tell that we havent heard since the 50’s and 60’s when Knorr was al the helm! ZZzzzzzzz

I personally was a bushy-eyed prophet for quite a time! I loved giving the talk What the Near Future Holds. I was fanatically focused on the nearness of the out break of the great tribulation (formerly it was Armageddon that was the focus until we began to see the distinctions between the great tribulation and Armageddon) in selfish desire for an end of my suffering in this wicked system of things. I experienced a meltown of my family in 2009 resulting in losing my wife, my kids (four daughters), my business, my house and my mind! Ultimately the loss and lonliness resulted in my giving in to the need for female companionship. I was disfellowshipped and reinstated a year and 10 months later (this experience was eye-opening for me) after marrying my wife Laura (not the woman I got involved with resulting in my df’ing) a year into my disfellowshipping. She is has been an amazing help to me, she being a critical thinker. I say all of that to say that my bushy prophet eyebrows have been clipped off due to my experiences…and my wife (a non-JW) helps keep them trimmed! I’m now more focused on Jehovah’s patience and desire that none be destroyed. I now stand amazed and delighted by the delaying of the end though I can see that there is good evidence that the end could come at any time. I would be delighted if the non-Trinitarian Sir Isaac Newton’s view that there was no scriptural need for the end to come before 2060 turned out to be correct! But the fact is there is such a thing as the wrath of God. Also, it is a fact that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher…so though the “story” remains the same it doesn’t make it less biblical.

I have NO IDEA what that “Babble” was….sounds like your a JW out in the bushes…….????? I dont know……but it is a fact that the Story that CTRussell started and Rutherford screamed thru the tents of the FaithFull and Discreet Slaves…..well…..I didnt say anything other than the WTB&T Society is showing strong signs of “Crumbling” and keep in mind the Kingdom Hall of 2017…is far from what it was as I grew up in Toronto and the United States! I dont know what exactly your point was other than you think the end is near….and I say “Who Cares” as I live my life without reproach..,…except I dont clog it anymore with the Guilt and DownTrodden Pressures of the “Truth!” There are alot of complet”Lies” in that “Truth” and you know it! It is a con!

On the contrary, in the past the org stated that all who go in the ministry are prophets. They refer to the prophets of old who shared God’s teachings just as today when ones go forth speaking of the Bible.

Not sure why any would take issue with an active witness being on this site, isn’t this a good place to begin awakening?

And furthermore…..Jesus was called a “Teacher and Son Of God”…..Preachers are ordained by the Church of their Beliefs……….you now sir…..show more proof that your NOT ANY TYPE OF JW and if you were….you were “Bored to Death” with all the detailed teachings…..cause you missed a couple…….”Prophet” you say??????? You have had a serious mental breakdown as you were never any Prophet in the Society……trust me…..I kno2w a little more than you care to know!

No the brothers and sisters really didn’t know how to help at that time. My wife (a pioneer) first left me on 4th of July 2009 (yep Independence Day). We were losing our plumbing business because of the Aug 2008 world economic collapse, as well as our house, our oldest daughter was just disfellowshipped and I was 500 miles north in Northern California to take up a new position at a plumbing shop. My wife called a week into my new job and said she had moved out of our house and had taken the girls and that I could do with the house what I wanted. I was shocked! I had found us a place to stay (a brother had a house for rent) and had been relaying to her every day how things were shaping up. I screamed back to Southern California and followed her around like a two year old toddler crying to be picked up. After about 3 months she acquiesced to moving back in. It was a happy day! It only lasted about 6 months and she was out the door again….I spiraled into a deep depression….the brothers and sisters didnt know how to help…how could they? I sought out anti-depressants which helped after about 2 months….but no…they didn’t use my plight to pull me in…I struggled to stay in.

@Timothy: no judgments at all about your comments here or your current situation. That sounds really sad.

My husband and I have struggled to stay together through financial crisis, job losses, foreclosure and all the mental and emotional stress and strain that comes with.

I see that the worst of it seems to be behind you, but I can only imagine how bad it must have been.

Especially with children.

I was very thankful (once to Jehovah, now just in general) that our financial traumas didn’t totally wreck my marriage and we loved each other and appreciated each other through it all and as it continues now.

Unfortunately our religious beliefs and current divide are taking more of a toll on our love and marriage than the money problems ever did.

But again, I am truly sorry to hear what you went through. It sounds like no one who should have been there for you emotionally and spiritually was at the time.

The song books have been increasingly full of self-praise (2 Cor 10:18, Prov 27:2, Luke 14:11), and I don’t imagine this one will be different. So if there is such a thing as the “wrath of God” then shouldn’t the GB be concerned? After all they have made false prophecies while claiming to be influenced directly by Holy Spirit (Deut. 18:20-22) while having the nerve to blame God (“wait on Jehovah”), used supposedly worsening world conditions to scare people into following them, something Jesus specifically warned about (Matt 24: 4-6) , made up pointless rules for people to follow and added to scripture (birthdays, beards, disfellowshipping (Matt 15:5-6??), time reports, discouraging higher education, etc). I really want to know: Why do JWs always give them a pass and just go along? Jesus’ harshest words were reserved for the religious leaders of his day, yet JWs seem to have a pathological fear of any criticism of the GB which to an observer seems to be ascribing them a god-like status. And if you (not just you in particular but any JW) don’t think the GB are appointed by God, why do you believe that you need to be part of their organization to be saved? Or should we all be singing praises to the GB?

You ask some very good questions. The idea that the FDS are only men doing their best but fallible and yet at the same time the things written in our publications are to be viewed as God directed does create cognitive dissonance for me. As a result I hold on lightly to teachings that seem to have more than one possible explanation while holding on firmly to things that are fine. The fact that we are told to wait on Jehovah for clarification seems to me to indicate that 100 percent intellectual assent is not required by the FDS.

As to your question Shouldn’t the GB be concerned about the “wrath of God”? My answer is yes. And I have little doubt that this is a matter of concern to them as they bear their responsibilities. I personally have prayed to Jehovah not to let brother Morris continue to beat me by his harsh comments and to help him find refreshment so that he may be kind and loving. The latest video he was featured in seemed to show us a kindly brother Morris. Anyhow, our current explanation of Jesus’ parable of the dragnet in Matt 13 should give us pause. We used to understand that the dragnet included the work of “Christendom” as well as our work. But now we have it limited to our preaching and disciple making only. And since the dragnet is still catching fish only being hauled onto the shore when it is full and then the fish separated it would only apply to good and bad fish within the WTB&TS. If our explanation of that parable is correct then the GB should indeed be concerned about God’s wrath along with all in the organization. I prefer our old interpretation of the dragnet. It seems to fit the other Kingdom parables better. But that would mean that other Christian organizations are also doing the kingdom work by evangelizing. It is of note that the main verb of the sentence in connection with the dragnet is aorist…that is it portrays the action as a whole. It doesn’t allow for an iterative action; that is casting the net time and again. In fact dragnets were not used that way…they were too large. The point is is that the description of the parable of the dragnet is a one time event so the comments in our publications that vessels in which the fine fish are being stored are the congregations today….well just doesn’t make sense. But to view the dragging of the net onto the shore as a one time event also creates the added problem that the “conclusion of the system of things” in which the angels separate the good from the bad is contextually used as a synonym for τελος (the end) rather than a durative period of time leading up to the end. Likely you will understand the implications of this point for our interpretation of the parousia as laid out in Matt 24. So as I say, some things I only hold onto lightly waiting for possible clarification.

As to the self praise you mention…I’m not sure what you mean. Can you give examples?

Yawn! You’ve hit on one of my passions; biblical Greek! Here is Ephesians 4:8 and the Old Greek which Paul seems to quote from. It is interesting that the OG has ἔλαβες (you took) where Paul changes it to ἔδωκεν (he gave). This is of course the exact opposite of the meaning of the OG. The direct object of the verbs in both the OG and the NT is δόματα (gifts) with the indirect objects being the dative prepositional phrase ἐν ἀνθρώπῳ (in men) in the OG and the simple articular dative τοῖς ἀνθρώποις. Classical Greek did not use prepositions to the extent that the later Koine Greek did so it is still within normal usage for the simple dative with convey the idea expressed in the OG of ἐν ἀνθρώπῳ (in men). Also the context of Ephesians 4:8 includes the description of the kinds of gifts in men in verse 11 such as apostles, prophets, evangelizers…so in short both “to men” and “in men” are grammatically possible.

I didn’t see your post to me on Oct 5. Thank you for your kind words. I know the tension a religiously divided household brings. I’ve come to realize that my wife a much more difficult path to travel to become a JW than I did. I was raised a (3rd generation) JW and didn’t have to overcome atheism. I’ve been learning to put my biases aside and try to understand her concerns/objections. I recognize that if I hadn’t been raised a JW I likely wouldn’t have become one. I’m glad I actually got to see the best of the friends from the inside of the congregation. I know the genuiness of the brothers and sisters as they strughle to walk by the model Christ provided. I hope your husband will continue to show you the respect and understanding that you deserve.

I find your admission that if you had not been raised a JW, you would not likely have become one to be genuine. This is extremely revealing, as it demonstrates that you recognize your life has indeed been dictated by bias.

This is not a statement which most Witnesses would make, as the organization teaches that you are drawn to Jehovah by your heart condition, and that he is likewise drawn to you. Knocking on doors is supposed to draw out the “honest-hearted ones” – persons with that “right heart condition”. Of course, this is religious propaganda designed to make you feel superior and secure in your decision to be a JW, having chosen the “right” religion above all other faiths. Anyone who slams the door and rejects the “message” has a poor heart condition and will die at Armageddon. Hence – your birth into the JW organization means that you were somewhat randomly selected to be part of the only true faith in the entire world, and had your family not been Witnesses you would have no “hope for the future.”

Sounds like a God of love? I think not. At least you are halfway out of the organization with your recognition as stated above. At the moment you have your own version of being a Jehovah’s Witness which is in no way obedient to the organizational guidelines and directives, but more closely matches the faith of an independent Christian. Your mind is a battleground of beliefs. I’d suggest abandoning the JW religion and allow yourself to be an independent Christian, or choose whichever faith you desire. I would bet your wife would agree.

As to why I’m still support the organization, it is mostly because of our message as kingdom proclaimers. I find it consonant with the Bible’s message. Also, many of our oganizational practices based on 1st century Christianity have resolved many of the problems lamented by earnest clergymen in their churches. I have in mind a 22 lecture series given by GK Beale and produced by Westminster Theological Seminary which is free in iTunes University. It’s denominated NT133. It primarily discusses the exciting topic of eschatology and especially what is known as Inaugurated Eschatology. This is very much what CTR discovered and expounded on and backed by Dr Beale’s studies. He is not a JW nor does he have affection for us but he is an honest scholar. In the lecture series he mentions JWs a handful of times in connection with our Unitarian beliefs but as you listen to his lectures you will see how the problems he sees in the church have been resolved by JWs and how the kingdom message we preach is in accord with his scholarship for the most part. I also recommend his magnum opus on A Commentary on Revelation, his book NT Theology and his amazing book Hidden but now Revealed….sounds reminiscent of CTR/JFR’s The Finished Mystery doesn’t it?

Thank you for replying. I am sorry that you feel you have to pray for Brother Morris, a member of the anointed and a leader and model for all JWs, to obey Jesus’ simple commandment to love.

Many of the comments you made were interesting, and it sounds like you have had some tough times with the organization but have decided to stick with it because of doctrine. Yet if you were to voice some of the opinions that you hold you must know you would likely be called in for questioning and possibly a judicial committee.

Which organizational practices are based on 1st century Christianity? Certainly not the baptismal vows. How can anyone be concerned with eschatology when they (not you, the leadership) completely disregard simple things that are actually made explicit in the Bible (Matt 28:19)

RE: your dragnet example, Interesting view, especially considering JWs have really only made headway in nations that were already Christian, or converted by Catholics or others (like the Philippines, Japan, etc.). In Islamic countries, not so much.

RE: self praise, few examples:

“Loyally Submitting to Theocratic Order” #125. The quoted scripture doesn’t even say anything about loyalty (1 Cor 14:33). “Shepherds, Gifts in Men” most bibles translate as “to men” not “of men” at Eph. 4:8, but it is convenient they can make themselves out to be gifts from heaven! “You Did it for Me” implies that the GB see themselves as a select group to be treated as if they were a stand-in for Jesus. “Serving Jehovah Whole Souled” – a scripture about loving God gets turned into a song about loyalty… my point is loyalty to MEN is taken as a measuring stick to determine one’s spirituality and one’s relationship with God. Where is the humility? It is the same with most religious organizations though I suppose.

I have not had a chance to check out the podcast you recommended but thank you for the reference.

Adulterers were killed in the Mosaic Law. If you believe the bible please go kill yourself hypocrite and rid us of your stupidity. 50% of marriage mates never commit adultery and they are Catholics and Muslims and Hindus…. But you think you are better than them and show up at their door to tell them how to live?
Pathetic ….

Whoa Garrett! Are you talking to me? You must be since I’m a self confessed adulterer. But what is this “go kill yourself” comment? Perhaps a moderator will give attention to your comments….truly out of bounds and in poor taste Garrett.

Timothy Lawson- I am saying this in good taste: Why in the world are you even on here? Your babbling comments have obviously become irritating to others and are polluting this thread. You are not going to be able to “pull some out of the fire” here- so please go away with your nuances. Crying out for a moderator is only making it worse on the rest of us who have grown increasingly tired of JW’s trying to play both fields. Why don’t you leave all your contact info and your elders name below this comment and I will be sure to let them know how you felt about the annual meeting, in fact- they may let you count your service time on this forum as well…

Timothy Larson or whoever you are?: Earlier you posted that you were a Prophet? When the hell was that? Where? What Congregation made you a Prophet? Garrett is correct and you are just here to irrate us….and I am not interested in your Adultery as your entire story is fiction!

The old “Doomsday Armageddon Story” is just that, namely an old story. After reading and studying the time line in the 2013 July study article of the Watchtower, the things that have to take place before Armageddon starts (including the removal of the remnant in a “Rapture” event) leads me to believe that Armageddon will not take place in my lifetime as I am 65 now. Which, in my mind, there is a very good chance that the “Great Crowd” that survives this cataclysmic event are probably not born yet. Especially if this event (if literal) is 100+ years in the future.

Notice I didn’t say ‘Great Crowd of Other Sheep’ as Judge Rutherford identified them as the same.

The Other Sheep Jesus mentions were believing Gentiles and Samaritans living during his time which is why he says “I have other sheep not of this fold”…. Notice “have” (present tense) not past tense (I had) or future tense (I will have). Do you suppose that Jesus used bad grammar or the men guided by Holy Spirit mistranslated this passage when writing the Bible? Or is this not the ramblings of a “spirit inspired” drunken sot? How is it that this passage is read at every funeral and still nobody challenges its interpretation? Could it be stupidity, laziness, or just plain fear?

Armageddon is only mentioned once in the entire Bible and in a symbolically written book at that. Revelation is all about signs and symbols and we would do well to accept that and not put any literal meaning into any of it. The 144,000 of spiritual Israel, the 40 elders shucking their crowns before Jehovah’s throne day and night, the four horsemen, etc. all symbolic not literal.

Remember too, Jehovah’s Witnesses are nothing more than an Adventist group of Bible thumping, proselytizing, doomsday, naysayers whose whole belief system is based on “someone or something is coming”. ‘Jesus’ or ‘Armageddon’ or ‘the New System’ (just fill in the blank) ” _______________ is just around the corner”.

This is what Advent-ism is and they fit the bill precisely. Hopefully, many will see through this fading, sham, Adventist-Millerite throw back and free themselves from this self-serving, self-appointed, delusional, mental midget, numb-skulls calling themselves the Faithful and Discrete Slave.

Fallingangel: you are right, religious belief in the case of JW are dividing much more than any other issue we had as couple. We went through our share of problems in the 22 years of our marriage, health issues, money problems, very different approach on how to raise our children and much more. But now, after that all, being divided about religion, it makes me feel that our marriage is already over

The Watchtower’s decent into financial ruin is slowly becoming obvious. The Watchtower Corporation continues to maintain a worldwide real estate portfolio worth billions of dollars. The sale of these assets could become less profitable if the Watchtower loses its tax exempt status, which is now in jeopardy.

The link below shows the vast extent of Watchtower investment properties, but thousand of Kingdom Halls are not included. However, some of these properties may be rented or heavily mortgaged. The original Watchtower U.S. world headquarters has already been sold off. If the Watchtower begins shutting down its branch offices, country offices, remote translation offices etc., many cult members will be cut off from the organization.

Once the Watchtower’s visible earthly organization is reduced to only JW dot ORG, additional cult members will leave and donations will dry up even more.

It’s interesting that the WTBTS, a publishing company, is cutting back on the printing of its own publications.

In this modern era it is even easier and cheaper to print books. Many vanity press publishers will print “one-off” books for just a few dollars. This is nothing compared to the multi-millions of dollars the GB members are spending on their compound in upstate New York.

As much as I’d like the changes to signal THE demise of Wt, Inc, I am reminded that Watch Tower, Inc is falling into the pattern of so many “successful” evangelical ministries–some even buying their sole proprietors big jets, sprawling homes, sponsoring universities, etc.

Multiplex KH’s could easily morph into mega-churches where attendees are virtual attendees and donors–a virtual audience of 10,000+ can easily fit into a metro KH. As long as your donation makes it in by due date, no elder “shepherding calls”. But, the beauty of this new business plan is how it simplifies the raking in of all those wonderfully lanolin-scented dollars in exchange for a greatly cost-reduced educational structure. No whiney Bethelites with pesky needs for food and stipends; no expensive ink and paper costs–and all that shipping costs and headaches of logistics; leasing a satellite–nope, just internet connections and the elevated revenue for videos–cash or credit card. The sheep pay for internet connectivity, their own devices (BYOD), and gosh darn it like us enough to fork over monthly “tithes” because–just because.

A printing company may be quite continental
But cash and instant liquidity are a corporation’s best friend..

So, Watchtower of NY and Watch Tower of PA are changing into educational (religiously-flavored) enterprises instead of paper printing–digital publishers.

Unfettered from the cost of materials and laborers, some content is “free” but the inflow stream has changed to a “give ’til it hurts” model, so I suppose “everything coming up roses”?

There is “Rivers of Cash” at the WTB&T Society and the Associated Corporations……it is just we dont know where it is and “Of Course”……we never hear or see it? Since no one makes any money in the Society….where does is go?????? How much is each Kingdom Hall and Property worth? Billions and Billions!!!!! Organzied Religion is a snare and a Racket!!! That includes the WTB&T Corporations!

I can tell you where at least $7,025,000 is tied up at. Namely in a land purchase in Palm Coast, Florida U.S.

“The facility is at 4500 SE Palm Coast Pkwy, between the eastbound and westbound lanes, just west of the Toll Bridge. The 13.45 acre property has a 53,504 square foot administrative building and two 44,704 square foot dormitories, each with 100 rooms. The Flagler County Property Appraiser‘s assessed value is $8,891,305”.

What unmitigated gal these so called members of the Faithful and Discrete Slave have! Crying poverty and begging for funds from the friends, who barely can make ends meet, while at the same time using those funds for land investments. Criminal! Just as bad as the Catholic church and its properties in Washington, D.C. Like the Catholic church its probably counted as Tax Free as it is “religious” in nature. Well at least they are following the successful business plan of the Catholic Church who have hoodwinked the public for years! 🙂

According to the Daily Mail the Watchtower corporation sold its Brooklyn, N.Y. properties for $1 billion dollars (U.S.)! How much treasure can these guys amass in real estate transactions and still beg the friends for more?! Can you say “avarice”?

Studied both of those Links….thank you……totally saddens me! I wonder if the Group of Elders back at Corporate are readying themselves a warm place to retire…..maybe they will clear a “Gravesite” as Russell/Rutherford did? Sounds like they all get the “Golden Parachute” when the Witnesses get “Nothing” but a giant guilt trip which ends in nothing but death……………no one can truly be happy being a Witness….no one!

The rumor of a new member was purposely started… just as a plumber pushes something through the line to find out just where that pesky old leak is— so did the Governing Body… unfortunately, to their dismay they now realize that they not only cannot identify the leak- they need new pipes too!

I was cornered by an elders wife and told her I wasn’t coming back… I told her about the ARC, the $4000 fine etc etc… know what she told me? The children don’t matter. Jehovah will wipe it all from our memories’…. How sick is that! Within a week of this I had elders knocking on my door, an A4 sheet of ‘Apostasy’ info pushed through the door… even after I stuck a large note on my front door to tell them to basically leave me alone. They curb crawled my daughter and left her and her infant hiding in a wood with bears roaming around because she was too scared to return home and confront them. They have continued to to turn up on her door and also interrogate the neighbours as to where she is!

When you suffer for righteousness sake…hmmm. Really? When You thumbed your nose at Caesars laws and now your getting your knuckles rapped …serves Jworgy right…and let them dip into their spare change…some older person will die soon and they can get a bit more coins, realestate, jewelry…etc….sign here…same old route..everytime the aphid slows down…the ant gives it a poke, and it takes off again til it tires…similar scenario in Jworgy…thank goodness for new, although fake leather song book to be released…was to a funeral…what an awful song they played…if the dead were present, which was not…would of no doubt woke up! Yrs ago far better words…now even songs are horror to listen to the brothers sing! At mtngs…all the aphids sound sooo tired! Think the Antz should give them a harder poke! Keep it commin…Mks me smile…according to a relative…Jw sorta but uses very “fowl” language to describe me and mine, demon worshippers all of us! Really? I have changed my belief in Jehovah to worship of Durak! Amazing! How is he able to know a persons heart etc.? Really? !!! Wound up his, electric device and tuned into…Jw.orgy..wulah wulah…poof!…has been granted the same ability to know as Jworgy! Me sitting here, patiently waiting for the…rupture! Yeah, really…the rupture! Allz good! :). Thanx to John Cedars and all his lil helpers! Keep em squirming! ;/))

People come to jwsurvey because they feel helpless and powerless and they’re trying to get their power back. It’s silly and childish to stay away from a religion just because you don’t agree with it. The world we live in isn’t Burger King and you can’t have it all your way. Go to a meeting for goodness sake, you’ll feel better.

Flush yourself. You’re full of it.
“It’s silly & childish to stay away from a religion just because you don’t agree with it”??? Listen to yourself. THAT DOESN’T EVEN MAKE SENSE. XDDD
Obviously, going to meetings hasn’t done anything for you than damage your brain.

I appreciate the moderate tone in your comments. And I can agree with the sentiments you express. I find scriptural evidence for disfellowshipping but I’m concerned about our practice of it. That is it seems too easy for some elders to err on the side of protecting the congregation rather than recovering the spiritual ailing one. Really, how many men truly understand the feelings and motivations of their own wives? It is so difficult to really understand the motivations of others that just a few meetings with a person undergoing a spiritual crisis in a judicial setting is inadequate for truly helping them spiritually. In fact in my opinion what is needed is for elders to truly get to know those under their watchcare long before such crises develop. A hindrance to such efforts may be having to earn a living. Yes! I wonder if it wouldn’t actually be beneficial to take the burden of making a living off of the shoulders of brothers especially suited for showing loving care. You know, love is the simple straightfoward milk-like message of Christ and yet you would think it’s the meat of his message, hard to digest and apply! We may understand all the mysteries of God’s prophetic word but if we don’t have love….wait…that sounds familiar…
I feel we should also look closer at our methods in re-instating. The brothers shouldn’t just disfellowship and then walk away…especially if disfellowshipping is going to be viewed as a loving method of discipline from Jehovah. They should watch the df’d one carefully for repentance and quickly welcome him back before he is swallowed up by sadness. This is all in accord with the only example we have of excommunication and re-instatement at 1&2 Corinthians where we see only as little as 6-9 months had passed between the man’s df’ing and reinstatement!

My wife (a non-JW) says that she likes my religion better from my mouth than from the platform at the kingdom hall. She stays away from the meetings so that she may not become disconcerted by things she hears there. This seems to have a biblical precedent in Jesus’ own admission that he had many things to tell his disciples but they were not ready to bear them. It also may be a lack of recognition that not all should be teachers. Our publications for the most part present the ideal but the application of it by those taking the lead is slow….I guess this is where love comes in….hard to develop though. The quicker motivators are guilt, fear, greed, lust! Hebrews 10:24-25 seems to read Incite one another to guilt or fear or greed rather than love! Hey brother Lawson why wern’t you at the meeting last night? Guilt! Hey brother Lawson the clouds of the great tribulation are on the horizon…better pop the slack out! Fear! Think of all the great things you will have in the new system! Greed! These are the quickerpickerupper motivators! Love takes so long to develop that it just isn’t practical!

Sorry about your difficult experiences fallenangel75. I understand what you are saying. I have found it very encouraging that for the last few years the travelling brothers have been making a point to express their understanding that many of us have deep feelings of worthlessness and so remind us that Jehovah doesn’t view us that way. This comes from the faithful slave! This is what we need to hear more of! More love stuff!

The many comments I have seen here seem to come from a place of deep hurt…truly understandable. I’m glad you don’t feel powerless….seems like a positive sign! It is tough though to not become embittered toward Jehovah over the hurt caused by one’s taking the lead…or that has been my experience. I have avoided that particular difficulty…but it I still find I have to struggle against a critical attitude toward the men taking the lead. I find in my case that praying to Jehovah to both help and forgive one’s (like brother Morris) who have hurt me by their words helps me avoid becoming bitter.

Regarding brother Morris, I had heared a few recorded talks by him when he was a circuit overseer and if I remember correctly he mentioned that he served in Vietnam. If that’s so I wonder if that experience isn’t part of the cause of his harshness?

I still don’t get why you allow the governing body to have authority over you. If you replaced GB with “my wife” or “my husband” it would be an abusive relationship. Just look at all the excuses you’ve made for them, while at the same time being made to feel worthless. No man can read hearts. Do you think the elders have special powers?
And 1 cor 5:11 reads as more an exhortation to use good judgement than as a rule for organizational shunning, or can no one be trusted to make their own decisions? Really, with all the rules, I wonder if it isn’t intended to keep jws in an infantile state of mind, always looking to a man for guidance even in the most trivial matters.

You make a good point…in fact soon after I remarried I went crying to my wife and said Honey when we got married I thought I was gonna get to be the boss! She has disabused me of many of my JW cultural preconceptions In fact she disabused me so much I started a spousal disabuse support group. Since she is perfect I don’t need to make excuses for her but the GB being imperfect men I make excuses for them and let love cover over their sins. My unbelieving wife is helping teach me how to love! It’s a tough concept since I was raised a Pharisee. @ Ar Jay Don’t make me tell my wife on you! No…really don’t cuz she’ll make me mind my own business.

When I was a Young Active JW I remember going to many meetings and feeling depressed during and after the meetings.75% of the meetings were negative and suffocating. Most of the talks were designed around doing more and more and how any minute the GT was braking out and we need to do more and more for our salvation. Man, what a negative mental mindset the WT would trap people in. No Wonder so many JW;s are on Meds and not happy.
I was a true JW believer and I kept thinking about my non JW family being destroyed soon at Armageddon! It was very depressing to me at the time. Also, as a new convert and just getting married there were things I wanted to do with my life that I HAD TO put on hold
or not accomplish bc of the “threat” of the WT and being Shunned or “marked”?
For such “evil things” as playing on a sports team or joining a club or the Worst JW thing of all GOING TO COLLEGE and getting a degree! Or maybe even the horrible act of growing a “BEARD! lol Yes, oppression caused depression. There was plenty of it coming from the WT. I did and do like many of the JW’s but the problem is as a JW you must OBEY every word that comes from the WT not the bible and it can be very depressing the burdens they put on their sheep.Jesus said his Load was Light. As a JW and the experience of all the pressure of being in the JW World the load the WT puts on the Sheeple is anything but light. Like the Pharisees they BIND them with heavy loads to keep them weighed down.

The loads the Pharisees put on the people were of their own devising. This would correspond to our JW customs such as how many times we meet per week, what is presented at our meetings, when we hold our conventions and how many days they may run. These loads have been lightened in recent years….so the FDS has lifted such burdens as economic pressures have increased. Also, the method of presenting material at conventions has changed taking advantage of current research in educational methods on teaching/learning which make absorbing the information easier.

I do, however, recognize that the drumbeat of evangelizing can be oberwhelming…but as for myself if I don’t feel moved to do something I try not to beat myself up over it.

Also, I have made my own decisions over what level of education to seek. The warnings about the dangers are wise and even many other religious organizations point out the dangers that the GB does. That said, the point often overlooked in our publications is about our reasons for seeking higher education. Is it for one’s own glory…to make a name for oneself? Or is it for use in God’s service? Some of us have a need for higher education to help satisfy our questing minds. Those who do are capable of making such decisions by looking at the factors presented in the publications and not feel pressured to take a path that is not for them. Let’s face it not everyone has the same needs. Many who aren’t interested in higher education aren’t harmed and those who are won’t be disuaded if it’s a core need and who are capable of intelligently reading our publications will benefit by the cautions offered.

If it is foolish to stay away from a religion bc you do not agree with it then why does the WT tell all other faiths that there religion is false and to get out of so called Babylon the great? Or If a Catholic or Mormon, or Muslim , Baptist etc discovers in their mind and heart that the religion they are part of is not correct or has done horrible things in the name of God that they leave bc they do not want to be a part of it. The WT demands people resign from their former church when they become JW’s bc they
do not agree with their former religion. This is a standard practice of people who leave the WT. So if people or JW’s decide the WT is teaching wrong things or practicing wrong things they should leave since they are just doing what the WT practices and demands of its own Sheeple.

Excellent news, inch by inch we get closer to a mass Exodus. A true freeing of Gods people from the mental shackles of this death cult. Free to receive the free gift without the million and one prerequisites and hurdles set by these modern day pharisaical corporation.

Note the biblical mention of a faithful discreet slave was a question ‘who really is’ so? Afterward mentioning the possibility of ‘that very once faithful slave becoming also evil and so conducting themselves.

You rightly note our asjusted understanding of the “evil slave” as not a foretold class but rather a warning for the “faithful slave”. One side point though…I feel the NWT (both of them) puts too much emphasis on the Greek particle αρα which is translated “really”. This particle is primarily used to introduce a question with no sense of affirmation implied. So as in most translations we read: Who is the faithful and discreet slave? Anyhow, since we now have eliminated an evil slave class along with our elimination of an extended slave class beyond the GB this has as you pointed out become a warning for the “faithful slave”. This seems to a recognition of heavier judgement on them rather than applying to some amorphous group. Thus it doesn’t smack of total arrogance in applying to themselves the role of “faithful slave”. Also, it always bothered me that the “faithful slave” prepared the food for their fellow household slaves and were also partakers of that food. It seemed a clear distinction was being drawn between the slave that prepared the food and the slaves that partook. We now have that cleared up but now with the strained understanding that being rewarded for their faithful service in being appointed over all the master’s belongings applies by extension to those not of the “faithful slave”. I haven’t worked out in my own mind how to resolve the tension. So I meditatively wait!

I just realized why I like this site! For four years now I’ve been defending the GB and my beliefs against my wife who has a 155 IQ (she hates it when I tell people how smart she is) and laser like logic….so here I just might win an argument! You guys are like school boys compared to her!

ArJay
People like Tim have every right to be here and to express their opinion. In reality discussions on sites like this help people to wake up from a controlling, dangerous cult. They are victims and need support, not verbal attacks. Tim may disagree that he is a victim, but who wouldn’t in that situation.

Note too the source/place of origin of the living waters mentioned in Ezekiel chapter 47 and the placement of fishermen’s dragnets fishing some out of the actual living waters. Is just ‘christendom’ there referred to?

You make an interesting observation by noting the linguistic connection between the dragnets and drying field and the dragnet and the shore of Matt 13 but the setting of Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22 have a stronger conceptual link than the linguistic link. Also, in both Ezek 47 and Rev 22 the trees seem to be for human consumption and it makes sense to see the fish in Ezekiel the same way. This would put it outside of any parallelism with Matt 13. What do you think?

You said something earlier about winning arguments with your wife who has a 155 IQ, and winning arguments here. Well I suppose that’s easier to do when your answers can all pretty much be boiled down to “wait on Jehovah” or the ever popular “imperfect men” defense. Many questions raised by people here you seem to have simply disregarded, preferring instead to quibble over translation or go off on tangents. Rather than being a good “witness” I’m willing to bet all you’ve accomplished is to show everyone what kind of crazy mental gymnastics are required to maintain any semblance of sanity as a JW.

Tim – You appear to be a scholarly JW – Here’s a question for you – The four horsemen of the apocalypse in Revelation appears to parallel Jesus words at Matt 24 – Wars and reports of wars, famine, etc. Would you agree on this? I will wait for your reply before discussing it further.

I would agree with your statement that they appear to parallel events in Jesus’ Great Prophecy at Matt 24.

Here are some further comments I put together recently on the topic which include comments from GK Beale. I don’t agree with all his conclusions but I think they are helpful in getting a more fully orbed understanding of “the four horsemen of the apocalypse”.

As to international harbingers of the nearness of the eschaton what comes to my mind is Deut. 32:23–26, Ezek. 5:16ff. and the ride of the horsemen in Revelation 6. Deuteronomy lays out the four fold plagues God would bring upon his covenant people for disobedience. Ezekiel 5 is striking affirmation of this and if Rev 6 is for our time then the international community of nations may want to take heed of the events taking place on earth after the Great War when for the first time peace was taken away from the entire earth by means of a “great sword” (think mechanized military with a global reach).

From Beal’s commentary on Revelation: “It is possible to see the first rider as neither Christ nor an evil power but, [Rev., p. 377] under the influence of Ezek. 5:16ff., a messenger of divine judgment whose arrows of woe are the following three horsemen. This could also be supported by the summary of the woes in 6:8b, which does not distinguish the first horseman from the second. But the “arrows” in Ezek. 5:16ff. are applied only to famine and not to any of the other three judgments mentioned there. Furthermore, Ezekiel 5 is only one of a number of texts containing the fourfold covenant curse formula, and the picture of “arrows” is virtually unique to Ezekiel, though “arrows” do summarize the four judgments in Deut. 32:23–26 (cf. also the Targ. Jer. Frag. Deut. 32:23–26, where the judgments are summarized as “the arrows of my vengeance”). “Arrows” are not mentioned in the formula which is quoted in Rev. 6:8a.

Therefore, the dominant influence of this repeated OT formula in Revelation 6 lies with a parallelism of the four covenantal judgments with the four horsemen who execute judgments (see on 6:8). Moreover, the reasons adduced above for the first horseman being a malevolent force outweigh the alternative of a precise Ezek. 5:16ff. background. Nevertheless, it may be true that both the first and the fourth horsemen play a summarizing role, in which case they are still to be identified with each other (see below).

Therefore, the first rider represents a satanic force attempting to defeat and oppress believers spiritually through deception, persecution, or both (so 11:7; 13:7). The image of the rider may include reference to (1) the antichrist, (2) governments that persecute Christians, or (3) the devil’s servants in general. An allusion to forces symbolized by the beasts later in the book could be uppermost in mind (see below on 6:8). “White” elsewhere in the book does not primarily connote victory but the persevering righteousness of Christ and the saints (see on 3:4–5). Here white may refer to the forces of evil as they try to appear righteous and thus deceive by imitating Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 11:13–15). The portrayal is intended by John as a parody of Christ’s righteousness and victory in 19:11–16: Satan’s attempts to be victorious are but feeble imitations of Christ, worthy only for ridicule (as in, e.g., 11:7; 13:1–13). Such attempts are doomed to failure from the beginning because they are ultimately decreed by God to contribute to the establishment of his kingdom and glory (cf. 17:17).
That this first destructive rider is ultimately under the hand of God is apparent from the phrase ἐδόθη αὐτῷ (“it was given to him”), which is an authorization clause with God as the subject (as is clear from other uses of the passive of δίδωμι [“give”] elsewhere in the book, e.g., 6:11; 7:2; 8:2–3; 9:1, 3, 5; 11:2–3; 12:14; repeatedly in ch. 13; cf. 17:17). The clause is used in commissioning both good and evil intermediary agents and is best understood in the specific sense of a divine authorization to perform a role rather than the more general idea of “permit, allow.”

Indeed, these evil agents are issued commands (“come”) to carry out God’s bidding. Since the first set of four judgments of the trumpets and bowls are divinely commissioned, so must be all four of the horsemen’s woes. This is confirmed from Zech. 6:7–8a, where an angel of the Lord commands the four groups of horses to “go” and to execute divine judgment. The phrase has the same meaning in Rev. 6:4a, 4b, and 8. This observation confirms further that these judgments issue directly from the Lamb’s throne. Such an insight into the divine plan provides God’s people with great motivation to persevere when suffering at the hands of their enemies.
In addition to the broad background of Zechariah 1 and 6, the image of a horseman executing divine judgment with “arrows” in association with “thunder” and “lightning” (cf. v 1b) is probably based secondarily on a collection of OT passages (Pss. 45:6; 77:18; 144:6; Ezek. 5:16–17; Hab. 3:8–11; cf. Lam. 2:4). All these texts portray God as the direct agent of judgment, but John applies them to others employed by God to execute his judicial will (cf. also the similar use of the “bow” carried by “horsemen” who represent Babylon as God’s agent to judge Israel in Jer. 4:29; 6:23; cf. also Isa. 5:26–28; Jer. 50:14, 29). The reason for this change of application lies in the fact that the broader framework for Rev. 6:2–8 is Zechariah’s four horsemen, and these other OT texts have been subsumed within that framework. God is even pictured in the OT as afflicting the righteous with either bow or arrows (e.g., Job 6:4; Ps. 37[38]:[3]2; Lam. 3:12).”

Timothy – A Bible scholar indeed!
It was gratifying to see your research into the ‘horsemen’.
I totally agree that the first horseman, as you so profoundly explain in Para 6, represents a satanic force – 1,2 or 3. The point that ‘white’ may refer to the forces of evil as they try to appear righteous and thus deceive by imitating Christ, is in line with Jesus warning at Matt 24 v 4,5. It is also in agreement with Rev 13 v 2, when John speaks of the ‘wild beast’ being given power, a throne and great authority (a crown).
As you mention the second white horse and its rider in Rev 19 v 11-16 is clearly identified as the Christ, Faithful and True, The Word of God.
I sense that you are of a mind to somewhat disagree with GB teachings on some issues as you ‘wait for clarification’.
The Watchtower has always assigned the role of the rider of the first horseman to Jesus Christ himself. We can now see, however, through our own research that this thinking is seriously flawed – a pointer perhaps to the fact that ‘Holy Spirit’ may not be shining on this ‘slave’ after all?
Another question for you – Jesus said, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through …
a) Anthony Morris
b) The faithful slave (GB)
c) Jesus himself

Note too the source/place of origin of the living waters mentioned in Ezekiel chapter 47 and the placement of fishermen’s dragnets fishing some out of the actual living waters. Is just ‘christendom’ there referred to?

Note too the source/place of origin of the living waters mentioned in Ezekiel chapter 47 and the placement of fishermen’s dragnets fishing some out of the actual living waters. Is just ‘christendom’ there referred to?

Aril: not sure what your 3 posts mean?
I am “done” trying to use scriptures to make any point as I did that when I was in the “Truth”…..and now realize it accomplished nothing! Jehovahs Witnesses are only 1% of this earths population………which means God is going to destroy 99% of the world at Armageddon??? Uhhh I dont think so and I am totally embarrassed that I even went for that….but since 1974….I am now free and look as JWs are a Cult and an Evil One at that.

I recall reading a very long time ago that Charles taze Russell openly stated that if funds for doing the work of god began to dry up, then that was an indication that the work was no longer being supported by Jehovah and that it should stop. Perhaps that was the most accurate (self fulfilling) prophecy to ever come from this religion in comparison of all the falsehoods that have been promulgated as ‘truths’.

Yes! Excellent Point! CTRussell said that to the International Bible Students which then grew into the WTBTS/Jehovahs Witnesses………so…they now have their “Truth” that Jehovah isnt supporting the work and now the Team at the Top is doing a ‘Cash Grab” for their Golden Parachute Retirement down in Florida!

Dear Tim Lawson did you watch the video’s of the Australian Royal Commission into institutional child abuse? They are on Youtube feel free to watch them. If you watch them you will see Geoff Jackson (GF) (GB member) say that they (GB) don’t write the articles, a writing dept made up of non anointed “prepare the food” they just edit them for doctrinal purity. In fact he said “we (the GB) are Guardians Of Doctrine” (GOD) for short. A phrase that he picked up from that other child abuser/enabler Pope Benedict, who now lives in a cloistered somewhere to avoid the police questions. The irony that GF at an inquiry into child abuse should resort to such a phrase is mind numbing.
But to watch 9 men, in particular, leading men at the top, lie and be called liars by the legal counsel cross examining them was a sight to behold. And also to be described as the worst religious organisation when it comes to child abuse policies and care by these experienced and well versed and educated men of the Royal Commission. Men who do not allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes by religious snake oil salesmen. And Tim, if you watch that farce, that was played out in that tribunal and think that from the GB to the front line flunkeys (the elders) who appeared there, and truly are a snapshot of what the rest of the ruling class are, and you suppose that they are just a misunderstood bunch of naughty boys, then my boy,your dear wife has done more than disabuse you, she has poked your eyes out and fed you LSD cakes and you have been on a trip ever since.
Your lectures on how nice these chaps are is nothing more than a con.
And as for the use of electronic devices I wondered about that and it occurred to me that the WT has invested millions in the JP Morgan Trust (a Satanic company to be sure) it probably means the the Trust has shares in Apple and Microsoft. Every post is a winner for the WT,hey? But worse than that, through their investments and tax havens they are receiving money via the Trusts that come from Phillip Morris the cigarette giant, Northrop Grumman,Honeywell et al. On the other hand they d/f smokers and on the other the WT takes the dirty money from these weapons manufacturers, and I have mentioned less than 10% of what they are up to.

Please let me clarify that my wife was raised atheist by a father with a degree in physics, then she transitioned to agnosticism and for a few years before we met she began looking into Christianity because she realized she had thrown out the baby Jesus with the bathwater without giving it due consideration. I have afforded her the opportunity to examine the Bible in the light of the original languages. Biblical Greek is my passion but I’m working on Ancient Hebrew and have a number of well respected non-JW scholars as friends to inquire of as well as JW scholars with Ph.D’s in Biblical Studies as well as linguistics so I am able to examine biblical themes to the degree necessary to help her see all sides of a topic. She is not a JW and has extreme difficulties with subordinating her own judgement to that of the GB. Your comment about her feeding me LSD and me “tripping” as a result is due to careless reading on your part.

Regarding the ARC and Geoffrey Jackson I did indeed watch the event. You hit on the one thing that really caught my attention and it was the self designation “gaurdians of the doctrine”. I didn’t however make a connection with the anagram G.o.D. That is interesting and my mind normally looks for such things. Thanks for pointing it out! I don’t believe it was intentional or that anything can be read into it. But I find in it hopeful sign! My desire is that we have more clearly denominated what teachings are necessary to hold to as necesary for salvation and which we may hold onto lightly. I’d like to see things broken down into 3 categories. 1) Dogma 2) Doctrine 3) Opinion. This would more easily allow one’s such as my wife (intellectuals) to be able agree and commit to our teachings and so become Jehovah’s Witnesses.

My overall opinion of the ARC is that brother Jackson did a good job. He humbly admitted that it would be presumptuous to say that God only spoke through the GB…but that said he did seem to limit it to brothers and sisters in the congregations also offering comfort or counsel moved my Jehovah’s spirit. I know this comment has shaken the faith of a friend of mine. I need to watch the video again. Perhaps you could give Dr Firpo Carr’s analysis a review. http://firpocarr.com/firpofiles08122015.html

As to some of the financial issues….well my wife has pointed some of these out to me. I am disturbed by these reports…but I have been lax in delving into them.

Your comment touched on many topics, but I could not help but reply to your reference to Jackson’s statement that it would be presumptuous to say that God only spoke through the GB.

Have you really given deep thought to what he said? The organization does indeed teach that Jehovah ONLY works through ONE organization – and you know which one that is. Who else does God work through? Jackson was clearly obfuscating – he was intentionally muddying the waters, hoping that anyone listening might assume he meant that down through the ages God “worked through” different individuals.

Jackson was not being humble, he was faking humility, knowing that he was caught up in a question which had only one answer, but that answer would have cast the organization in extremely negative light. Jackson’s reply was cowardly and amounts to lying before the court. Jackson should have had the guts to say “Yes, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that God is working through just one organization in the last days, and the spirit appointed men in the position of Governing Body members are the only ones acting as the Faithful and Discreet Slave in these last days.” But he didn’t say that- because he is indeed a coward, and his words were chosen carefully and coached by Watchtower legal counsel.

You also are aware of Jackson’s statement that the GB are indeed “Guardians of the Doctrine” – a point he made several times. This, while slightly more bold, is still a hazy statement which implies that they are guarding a doctrine rather than generating it. Witnesses are fooled into believing that their organization has revealed the clear truth in the last days, beginning with Charles Russell. Their constantly shifting doctrine is just one of thousands of interpretations of Christianity and they are guardians of nothing more than their own unique doctrine which has evolved over many years.

If you really aspire to be a Biblical scholar – start with trying to reconcile Watchtower Chronology with all known science, including their dates for the flood and the creation of Adam. I’m doing you a favor here and giving you a shortcut to the truth. The answer is – you won’t find it in Geoffrey Jackson’s faith. Try looking elsewhere.

Matt 27:11 Jesus now stood before the governor, and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say it.”

In Matthews account of Jesus’ trial Pilate asked a charged question that Jesus could have answered with an affirmative ναι (yes). He instead answers with the words σὺ λέγεις (you say) which is cryptic. Was he being a coward?

Now the following scripture comes to mind regarding whether or not the GB claims to be the only spokesman for God.:

Matt 21:16 and said to him, “Do you hear what they are saying?” Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read, ‘Out of the mouths of children and nursing infants you have prepared praise for yourself’?”

This scripture intimates that Jehovah can speak through even little children.

Really, the same problem of imputing wrong motives that I have with many Elders and even friends in the congregation is being displayed by you toward brother Jackson. Since the GB understands that Jehovah does speak words of comfort through even the least one’s in the congregation his answer was correct even if it seemed cryptic to his inquisitor. He has a good example in Jesus’ response to Pilate. Perhaps you even remember Jesus’ counsel to be cautious as serpents yet innocent as doves.

Another example of Jesus not answering directly is when he was asked about the resurrection and who the woman would be wife to since she had seven husbands. Jesus’ answer was evidently about the heavenly resurrection not the earthly. – See our current analysis of the scripture in Question from Readers.

As to the difficulties presented between the biblical narrative and geology this is not strictly a matter of biblical scholarship. Biblical scholarship is limited to the corpus of the Bible. A search for the accuracy of the Bible is a different endeavor.

Dr Ken Tanaka (retired from the USGS and as far as I know still an active JW) has changed our view on the creative days being only 6,000 years long. Our current comments use the term “epochs” which have no set amount of time. As to the Noachian flood Dr Rolf Furuli (a JW) has a book coming out that scientifically addresses issues raised by critics regarding the flood.

@Timothy Larson. I have been in and around the “truth” since the early 1960’s and I don’t ever remember the Society saying that Ken Tanaka changed their teaching from 6,000 years for each creative day to “epochs”. Can you refer us to where Tanaka convinced the Society to change it’s 6,000 years guess to epochs, which leaves it open ended so they don’t look so foolish in specifying a date? I don’t remember the Society ever doing such a thing.

If they yielded to him when it comes to dating when God created the heavens and the earth, then why in the world wouldn’t they yield to all the evidence that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 B.C.E.? Those are real dates and easily proved. Why does the Society disfellowship anybody who points that out to their fellow “friends” at the Kingdom Hall? Can you explain that to us too?

You say it is hard to talk to your wife since she has such a high intelligence with an I.Q. of 155? I am only of average intelligence and I also can’t buy the Bible as being inspired of a perfect God either but my reasoning is quite simple and this is it:

Can you describe Jehovah?
Is Jehovah invisible?

The Bible begins by saying that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, right?

So, in the beginning there were no heavens and no earth and Jehovah is invisible, right? So out of nothing (no heavens and no earth), this invisible God came along and created the heavens (his home) and the earth and everything on it, out of nothing. Can you explain that to me? Do you have any evidence that an invisible God came along and out of nothing at all, created the heavens and the earth and made himself his home in the heavens? Where exactly are the “heavens” that Jehovah lives in? Is it different than the other planets? Does he live in the planets somewhere out there? Or is he all around us, watching our every move, judging us? You believe that or you wouldn’t pray to Him.

If you can’t explain that, then that means you take the beginning of the Bible’s explanation of “creation” on faith and not evidence.

Why am I supposed to believe that with no evidence because you do? If I don’t “believe” that anymore, why am I supposed to be punished for not believing it anymore by being shunned when the elders gave a marking talk on me, just because I told them how I feel about it now?

Maybe it’s because there is no evidence to prove Jehovah created everything and the Society is deathly afraid that if I ask those simple questions to my fellow “friends” and family, they might also lose their “faith” and not give money to the Society anymore and if enough of us start talking to our “friends” and families, the religion will come to an end and the only way to keep a good thing going is to kick us out and have us shunned under the pretext of apostasy?

I was a believer for 50 years and once I actually put my brain in gear and thought about it, I couldn’t believe it anymore and I told my family and the elders and the elders gave a marking talk on me and I am being shunned even though they haven’t disfellowshiped me. I am even being excluded from my son’s wedding in November.

Tell me what makes you so much smarter than your wife because you can’t turn her into a believer?

I don’t mean to disrespect you or insult your intelligence, but your reasoning is absurd. You are attempting to divert attention from the very clear question asked by Angus Stewart to Jackson. Stewart was not asking whether spiritually enlightening words of truth and wisdom can emanate from children – as if he wished to clarify the scriptural adage of “out of the mouth of babes…”

The exact question was: Q. And do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?

Jackson’s reply: A. “That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days ‐ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfil that role.”

First, Jackson muddies the waters by saying that someone can “act in harmony” with God’s spirit – then he follows that by a murky admission that the governing body does indeed fulfill the role of the “slave”

Your implication that it’s OK to speak in an indirect manner, basing this on Jesus’ example, is really stretching the limits of rational thought. The average uneducated JW eats up this type of speech because it allows them to click off the critical thinking section of their brain and simply say “Wow – Brother Jackson really knows how to make an answer, thanks to Jehovah’s spirit…”

The Watchtower writing department has been using this type of reasoning for its entire existence. Instead of studying Biblical exegesis, what you should be examining is the subject of logical fallacies. I was in this organization for 46 years and was fooled since birth because of this indoctrination and these fallacies before finally waking up to the psychology of religion and the reasoning used to support irrational and absurd beliefs. To be fair, Jackson was himself baptized at an extremely young age and was also subjected to the mental gymnastics used to defend Watchtower teachings.

And by the way – I hold myself and the other editors of this site to an infinitely higher level of respectability than the legendary figure of Jesus. We do not speak in circles, we do not obfuscate. We do not muddy the waters of reality – we speak the truth and have nothing to hide. To quote Jesus – the truth has “set us free”. No loving God (or his son) would ever need to speak in riddles or keep the human race guessing about life, truth, and the future of mankind. This is evidence that religion is man-made, and that Watchtower teaching which I grew up with and defended strongly are mere fabrications.

As to your second point – I am very happy to engage with you regarding the Watchtower dates for the flood and creation, but you need to make sure you are accepting indisputable scientific truth when it is presented to you. Once thing you need to recognize is that Watchtower teachings relative to science ALWAYS follow behind scientific proofs and evidence – not the other way around. Only when it became INDISPUTABLE that the earth was over 4 billion years old did Watchtower finally alter their young earth creationism and adopt old earth creationism, using Genesis 1:1 to wiggle out of their obvious dilemma.

And don’t be so quick to attempt to separate the biblical narrative from the study of actual verifiable history. The Bible presents a timeline of human history which exposes itself to verification. The Bible clearly cannot escape criticism in this area because of its many comments on historical figures, ages, lifespans of persons such as Adam, Noah, Enoch, etc. In other words, if you are going to defend the Bible you better be ready to defend any areas which relate to history and archaeology. Regarding Ken Tanaka – where are you getting the reference that he was the one responsible for the abandonment of 6000 year creative days? I know that he is a Watchtower apologist, but the organization would never openly acknowledge that one JW with a science background was responsible for altering their long held 7000 year creative days teaching. (Yes I am correcting you on this – Watchtower creative days were 7000 years in length, not 6000. 6000 years was and still is their current teaching of the age of mankind, with the addition to the years which have passed since 1975)

Finally – Dr Rolf Furuli – well there is a name JWs should know about, but don’t. He has aided the organization in its unyielding stand on the 607 destruction of Babylon date, which of course is also absurd and accepted by no scholars or museums anywhere in the world. His efforts are a last ditch attempt to back the 1914 Chronology, which will eventually crumble completely. I am fascinated though to hear that he is attempting to defend the Noachian flood, and look forward to his reasonings, since he will not only be defending the flood legend itself, but a date for the global flood which Watchtower will stand behind until the bitter end. I am actually pleased that the organization has stood behind their dates, as it enables intelligent young JWs trapped inside the organization an opportunity to see just how deceived they really are.

I was in the same congregation with Dr Tanaka for a time in Flagstaff, AZ and while I have a personal relationship with him he never spoke about his letter to HQ on the topic but some of the friends mentioned it to me. Yes, the FDS would not mention him by name in making a change in our view…so you will not see his name connected with such.

Myth: The Bible says that the universe was created in six 24-hour days.

Fact: According to the Bible, God created the universe in the indefinite past. (Genesis 1:1) Also, the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”—Genesis 2:4.

As to your question about the creation of the universe, Dr William Lane Craig is probably the top expert on the question of God and the universe.

Caroline you ask: “Tell me what makes you so much smarter than your wife because you can’t turn her into a believer?”

I’m not smarter than her….maybe better read than her…but definitely not smarter! There is a problem with faith…that is we may have strong evidence so as to believe something is true but we don’t have proof. If we had proof we would not need faith. Many of the Biblical arguments for my beliefs have other explanations offered by other religious philosophies. For her to be able to agree to my perspectives she needs to consider what others argue as well before making up her mind. So, this is what I have undertaken to do…that is examine the doctrines of other Christian thinkers to help her analyze our doctrines. As you can imagine this will not be done in a short time. My work is cut out for me!

I see that your difficulty with our beliefs applies equally to all religious thought. Doesn’t this come We as well as many other Christians have the apriori that the Bible is inspired of God whereas you are examing our faith from an aposteriori perspective/method.

Brother Jackson’s remarks are consonant with our Biblical worldview. It makes sense that an appeal to Jesus’ own example would carry little weight in view of your bias.

With all due respect, when you make reference to my “bias”, you neglect to mention that your views and the views of the Watchtower organization are entirely built upon religious bias, which is founded on traditions passed down over centuries both orally and some written, and these religions are so diverse that the number into the thousands. One reason this has occurred is because it is all based on faith and feeling, not fact and science. We do not have several thousand versions of algebra and calculus for one simple reason – you cannot deviate from established mathematical proofs. But you can interpret words on a page a thousand different ways, just as Charles Russell, Joseph Smith and all of the others have done.

You can’t simply back out of a disagreement over life and the universe, claiming bias, when you are in fact controlled by the very bias you accuse me of. I came to the realization after 46 years of loyalty to the JW faith, that I was not governed by any element of truth whatsoever; rather I was led by the Christianity under which I was born, and more specifically under the fundamentalist cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose predictions of 1975 and later decades turned out to be nothing more than insane speculation from the fertile mind of Frederick Franz, who carried the torch from Rutherford and Russell right to his death in 1992.

I would prefer that my faith in this religion had remained intact and that it stood up to the test of time and truth – but it did not. And those still attached to this organization remained joined to it primarily due to family ties and fear of impending doom and destruction at Armageddon.

I welcome anyone to provide logical evidence backing any of the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses and will happily return when I locate such proof. But you can excuse me if I don’t spend the rest of my life living a lie with false hopes, as this is not a genuine place to exist.

The JW organization believes they are the doctors of our faith -but quite frankly I would never seek medical attention from any doctor found guilty of malpractice his entire career. The result would be deadly.

Timothy, you say: “Many of the Biblical arguments for my beliefs have other explanations offered by other religious philosophies. For her to be able to agree to my perspectives she needs to consider what others argue as well before making up her mind. So, this is what I have undertaken to do…that is examine the doctrines of other Christian thinkers to help her analyze our doctrines. As you can imagine this will no be done in a short time. My work is cut out for me!”

I think to believe in something without any evidence is being gullible. I want some kind of proof before I would believe something, especially if I was going to be using up the one and only life that I was blessed with in the pursuit of fables. Life is too short to waste it on fantasies and philosophies of men.

If there is a god and he wanted us all to live and not die, then why would he pick some obscure family such as the Jews thousands of years ago, to give his “word” to in order to save all mankind? Why not make that “word” available to all mankind in all languages and why make it so hard to understand that only the elite could understand it to explain it to the multitudes and why give that sacred knowledge to only a few learned philosophers?

If you are going to believe that the Bible is inspired, then you have to believe that the law as given to Moses from Jehovah was perfect. You would have to defend the buying and selling of your children as slaves and the killing of slaves because they were only “property” and you would have to defend the killing of girls on their wedding nights if they couldn’t prove they were virgins and you would have to defend the burning of prostitutes and you would have to defend the forcing of girls that were raped to have to marry their rapists and you would have to defend Numbers chapter 31 where Moses was told to go into Midian and kill every man, woman and male child and keep all the virgin girls for themselves which amounted to 32,000 young girls and who of which went to Jehovah and amounted to 32 souls.

Tell me, what did Jehovah do with 32 young girls? Were they offered up as burnt sacrifices to Molech as Acts 7:43 seems to imply? Those virgin girls were split up between the men that went to war and the congregations and to Jehovah.

You would need to defend how the Israelites sang in Psalms about how wonderful it was to tear babies out of their pregnant mothers’ wombs and throw them against the wall.

Did the Israelites worship Molech during those 40 years as Stephen said? If so, then you are worshiping Molech and that would explain why people like to stick to the Greek Scriptures and ignore the hideous god of the Hebrew Scriptures but of course Jehovah’s Witnesses chose that God of the Hebrew scriptures to worship. Go figure!!!

Of course I have biases. The trick is to recognize them so as to analyze things dispassionately. May I say that your comments reflect a certain amount of emotionalism. This of course could cloud clear thinking.

Where do you draw the line at bias? Our lives are filled with bias – in fact every decision we make is based almost entirely on bias. If I travel to the shore and visit the boardwalk, you can bet that I will find my way to the New York style pizza joint for a hot delicious pie – but walk right past the pit beef shop. That’s my bias – and it goes back to my childhood. This is an innocent bias (unless you are the animal slaughtered for the pit beef) – but there are far more serious biases to be concerned with – which brings us to religion.

If you are a JW (which I find dubious since you are commenting on this site) – your bias may quite literally take your life. For example – if you need a whole blood transfusion – you will reject it and likely die. This of course is your decision. However the inflicting of bias upon children is deadly, particularly in the case of JWs. They grow up in fear of displeasing God by going to college, becoming a musician, or accepting a blood transfusion to save their life. Hence you will forgive me if I appear to have “emotionalism” – but when lives are at stake, one can hardly remain comatose upon awakening to the dangers of high-control cults which drastically alter the lives of their adherents.

I personally put my life on the line at the age of 20, facing an operation along with the presentation of my beliefs to the medical staff, who were none too pleased that I would not accept a blood transfusion if it were needed. I did this 2 more times in my life before waking up and recognizing that the insanity of this belief was deadly, and there is no coming back from that decision. It might seem irrelevant to a believer who rests all of his hopes on the resurrection of the dead, but when you finally recognize that this belief is an illusion, it is frightening and sobering to observe the deaths which have occurred – for no reason. Religion is a sponsor of unfounded bias, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are right in the head of the pack when it comes to leading their followers off the cliff, falling to their death like the swine in Jesus’ illustration

I have no problem with your faith in God, and certainly wish you the best. But it seems you are quite the displaced person. As I am sure you know, there are almost no JWs who publish blogs or discuss Biblical exegesis to the extent that you seem to do. Witnesses are directed to follow the simplistic direction in their grade-school level magazines and books, and leave the thinking to the writing department and the governing body. And you are well aware that you are not allowed to participate in or comment on apostate web sites. It seems you are above Watchtower’s direction, which is a dangerous place to be in the organization. If you are a witness, there is no question you would hide your conversations here from any elders or circuit overseers -or any other JW for that matter, as you will receive strong counsel and discipline for doing so.

Since the discussions are civil, you are welcome to stay – but just remember that you are striding the fence, and I am certain you are aware of the Watchtower’s direction on such behavior.

On a side note – does Furuli have a blog or web site? Do you have personal knowledge of his apologetic work on behalf of the Flood account? I have seen almost nothing online related to his work in recent years, and would be interested in knowing where you sourced the info that he is working on a book on the subject

Much of your comments involve the question of theodicy. I’m limping along without a good answer to this myself. It’s still on my list of research projects. Fact is it worries me some…it had a huge imact on Dr Bart Ehrman to the point of his becoming an atheist. Watch for a response in my blog….it may be awhile though.

Regarding Stephen’s comments in Acts 6-7 context is king as they say. His defense of speaking against Moses was Amos 5 where that prophet makes startling statements against those children of Abraham that turned away from Jehovah in their hearts. Did they really make sacrifices to Jehovah when their hearts were not really inclined toward him? Excluded from this remonstration were those who were still inclined to the worship of Jehovah who were few in number indeed after the majority died in the desert.

You have eyes and yet you cannot see. Isaiah and Jesus said that there will be clear evidence among the people, but they won’t see it. What does this apply to? All the people who fail to see what Jehovah’s Witnesses are doing. Leading people to God’s Kingdom through the prophetic world wide preaching work. It’s clear evidence. If you can’t see it, it’s because you ignore it.

Option C is of course the answer you’re looking for. But does’t Daniel 12:3 indicate that a group of wise ones will be involved in bringing many to righteousness? So, why exclude A & B? But that is what this site is about; reasons to exclude A&B.

Daniel 12:3 NET Bible
3 But the wise will shine
like the brightness of the heavenly expanse.
And those bringing many to righteousness
will be like the stars forever and ever.

Timothy –
Indeed it does say ‘And the ones having insight (or wise), etc.’ The problem is we can all be wise in our own eyes, yet Jesus gave us a warning in Matt 11:19 ‘…wisdom is proved righteous by its works.’
So what are the ‘works’ of the Watchtower? They have preached the ‘good news’ of God’s Kingdom, supposedly established in the heavens in 1914. As we know, this is confirmed from the 2520 years from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607. This date has been drip fed into all the JW minds from the beginning. But is this date true or false? Unfortunately, the date is not historically or scripturally correct. (I have done intensive research on this using scripture and archaeology). The Watchtower will continue with this subterfuge because it is a foundation to their beliefs. The whole lot would fall down if we discount 1914, I’m sure you would agree?
In truth Watchtower has confused the brothers with their ever changing ‘light’. Emphasised the need for personal study, but only in their publications. Covered over the fact that their IS a paedophile problem within its ranks. Disfellowshipped and shunned any who disagree with their doctrines in order to protect the flock from real truth. Re-written history to suit their agenda. The list goes on… Wise in their own eyes!!
Remember the apocalyptic rider of the white horse? Appearing righteous, but really satanic?
Another question for you. What is the historical date for the Battle of Carchemish?

@Guy
I have eyes and I have seen. I have looked behind the curtain and seen the old man turning his dials and making smoke and pretending to be a wizard. It’s a fool’s dream.

The JWs have a higher turnover rate than any religion on earth today. They have failed to lead anyone to God’s kingdom. Their doctrines continually change and their predictions have failed on multiple occasions. They have prophesied falsely in God’s name and should suffer the consequences (Deut 18:22). They are blood guilty for coercing there members into refusing medical treatment and for their double standard on political cards. They denounce the UN as a counterfeit for the Kingdom of God and then turn around and join it.

The only clear evidence is that there are people who are so afraid of facing reality that they will buy any sort of snake oil being offered. I pity such people. I am glad to have awoken from such a pitable state and have that I been able to embrace the world as it is.

I don’t do “careless reading on (my) your part”. Since you are so kindly insulting, in respect of understanding what I sarcastically said, in relation to your earlier comments regarding your wife, whom I see as the intelligent one of the family, and since you push her IQ, 155?? I think you mentioned, you should ask her if she would give or loan you 5 IQ points, at least that would lift you above zero. Your the one who seems to have misread, probably deliberately.

It was very kind of John Redwood to address his response so kindly and polite to your letter, he has more patience than I.

The first paragraph of your response to my remarks was nothing more than a load of blather. Not worthy of someone who “modestly thinks of himself as scholarly.”

I will again point out that Geoff Jackson lied at that hearing in the ARC. Terry O’Brien (Branch Co’ordinator) tried to conceal from the ARC that Jackson was even in the country by lying as to Jackson’s whereabouts. Angus Stewart SC, who was informed by hundreds of emails from observers (the hearings were broadcast in real time) that Jackson was in the country and was capable of answering questions at the ARC. At one stage it was possible that Jackson was going to have an arrest warrant and an airport alert to prevent him leaving the country. Terry O’Brien (BC) relented and revealed where Jackson was and the deception to shield Jackson. Stewart subsequently called O’Brien a liar, and O’Brien went within a hairsbreadth of being held in contempt and suffering substantial penalties. Vincent Toole, the WT’s trusty lawyer, lied. I watched with my own eyes, he lied about what he knew about the cases before the ARC, he even denied knowing about the WT article which deals with “Theocratic warfare” where lying is permissable under WT rules. Toole has been a witness for nigh on 40 years and he doesn’t know???? Give me a break. Toole has been reported to the NSW Bar Association for conduct unbecoming of legal standards. He faces disbarring to practise law because of his conduct.

Doug Jackson (DO) who I know lied at that hearing. They all did.

But Tim my boy, you never answered any of that. You just blathered dribble. You indicated to John Redwood how Geoff Jackson used Jesus as his example. Below is the WT and what they think of what happened to Jesus and why he said what he said.
*** w63 5/15 p. 320 Questions From Readers ***
John 18:37 reads: “Therefore Pilate said to him: ‘Well, then, are you a king?’ Jesus answered: ‘You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.’” Pilate, having heard that Jesus was said to be the king of the Jews, had previously asked, “Are you the king of the Jews?” And now again he asked, “Well, then, are you a king?” To his first question Jesus had replied, “Is it of your own originality that you say this, or did others tell you about me?” This time he replied: “You yourself are saying that I am a king.”—John 18:33-37.
Thus we see that Jesus here was neither affirming nor denying his kingship. Why? So that he could not be charged with sedition against Caesar. This is clear from what the Jews further went on to say in their attempt to influence Pilate to have Jesus executed: “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Every man making himself a king speaks against Caesar.”—John 19:12.
In other words, Jesus was here himself following the counsel he gave his apostles when he sent them forth, to be as cautious as serpents, and that especially when brought before rulers.—Matt. 10:16-18.

So lets compare Jackson to Jesus

JC; ON TRIAL for his very life.
GJ: Called just as a witness at an enquiry to conduct relating to WT actions on child abuse. NOT ON TRIAL, no danger to his life.

JC; deflected the question for a specific reason of whether he was King. Why? So that he could not be charged with sedition against Caesar. That would have appeared to nullify his innocence in the eyes of many.
GJ; Required to tell the truth to assist the victims of one of human societies worst crimes- child abuse.

JC; made no promises to his captors that if they released him he would do this or that.
GJ; made a number of promises about what JW’s would do to clean up their judicial system. Jackson left the country probably never to return and when he got back to NY the WT on behalf of Jackson et al, repudiated all his promises in writing to the ARC that he had made.
JC; stood there alone courage his companion, and committed to the enormous responsibility he had, all his companions had deserted him.
GJ; tutored by legal counsel as to what to say, surrounded by sycophants, who were willing to lie for him and he was willing to accept that, wrangled his way to have a video link rather than a personal appearance.

There is more but I think the point is made.
Finally, there is the bland statement Tim, As to some of the financial issues….well my wife has pointed some of these out to me. I am disturbed by these reports…but I have been lax in delving into them.
I bet you have. It is bloody hard to answer them. Is lax a code word for avoiding the truth

Dear Tim, you ask,
“You have made quite a few statements about the events surrounding the ARC which I had not heard. Where do I go to verify your comments?”

Your question is loaded and disreputable but I will answer it in this way. First of all, notice that I do address your question. I choose not to waffle on.

What you have asked is contrary to what you expressed earlier when I said feel free to watch the ARC on Youtube. If you had watched the ARC as you said, most of my statements are drawn from those ARC video’s and transcripts in case of questions like yours.

I don’t think you have watched much of them or any if the truth be known.

I have heard fantastic stories from Witnesses as to why they only watched a little bit and then refused to see it through because the ARC was persecuting JW’s.
I even heard that all the leading men of the WT were just actors to to put JW’s in a bad light. J.K.Rowling couldn’t make up the rubbish I have heard, first hand, and by others relating what has been said.

That being said, your question is like asking Luke Hamill, what happened on the set of Star Wars to make it work.

Sometimes you just have to be there and know at least some of the players in the drama and talk to others who know others on the set. Some things that I have said you will never know because they were not written in the transcripts.

For example, when Vin Toole got up on that witness stand and perjured himself about not knowing about “Theocratic Warfare” (TW) that question was asked by Angus Stewart SC, and it caught Toole off guard. How did Angus Stewart SC know about (TW)? I emailed him the WT article. Toole didn’t want to fess up to consecrated Corporate lying.

Is Toole appearing before the Board of Legal Practitioners in New South Wales, Australia, you can contact them yourself and ask them.

Take Rod Spinks for example. Rod is a small man with “little man’s Syndrome”. Rod is nasty, he is a misogynist and that became evident to all when cross examined by a female barrister. Justice McClelland sorted Rod out and the woman continued and shredded his testimony. I have come across Rod in my travels.

The events surrounding the subterfuge of Jackson are remarkable, that too is on tape. Terry O’Brien was chosen to lead the lie that Jackson wasn’t in the country, even though he was. Jackson’s father was in a hospital in Brisbane and the WT team tried to indicate that it was Jackson snr that was here not his son. Every Witness in the country knew what was going on by spreading emails.

What was really remarkable by Jackson when under cross examination was the fact that he had seen all the WT people and their testimony on video, to make sure he got his story right with theirs, then admitted that he never bothered to hear the testimony of the young women who gave their harrowing accounts of horrific sexual abuse. He wasn’t interested.

The case of the second victim BCG (sic) was even worse. She complained to the Elders of what had happened to herself and her sisters, naturally they wanted all the dirty sordid details, down to the last scrap like the voyeuristic bastards that they are, then called her father to a meeting with BGC in the room who confessed, but they wouldn’t believe him. So BCG was compelled to carry on as normal. She ended up being d/f’d before he, that’s WT justice.

Those elders are still in place.

Eventually he left the family home and moved to a place, like moving from Seattle to Miami, and went to a congregation (which I wont name) and lo and behold the Elders told nobody. Don’t you just love them?

As for the repudiation by WT. Check transcripts on the ARC website for the 77 recommendations that the ARC made for WT to make by the time the Commission comes back to check. WT repudiated the lot.

Next time don’t spin the bullshit line that you watched something when you haven’t.

AS for WT’s business dealing search the web for the Henrietta Reilly Trust

Here are some of the names of the shares in that trust that WT receives its money from.

Interesting about Monsanto, the money that those shares pay is still being derived from the Vietnam war and all the spraying that was done to win a lost war. Have you seen the teratogens that have been caused to the kids of Vietnam? Even after all these years these birth defect kids (some don’t even look human the deformity is so bad) mostly dying after birth that has been caused by Glyphosate and WT spreads the good news on the back of these kids. Now Bayer the company the developed zyklon B that was used to gas the Jews in Germany is now conglomerating with Monsanto and the WT is using that money that still flows from profits way back then??

WTBTS depends on the “Greed” of the Stock Market and has to “Share” in the “Truth” that they simply can justify their hugh investments as……just good business?
This isnt an Organization for which we “Signed up for” when being Baptised…….as none of us knew one thing about the Financial Dealings in New York under Knorr or
Franz…….the later ones I have no idea…..but just before his death NHKnorr made some very “Confusing” statements about the WTBTS authenticity and the timing of the “End” of the System of things…….a basis with which we JW’s based our faith! I find Raymond Franz’s book factual and enlightening and I even spoke to him as he knew my Grandfather for many years…..due to that “Contact”…….my sister now 66 years in the Truth….called me and said she reported me as an “Apostate”….of which I just laughed and hung down the phone! There is only so many ways to twist the scriptures and that I always was bored to death going to meetings hearing the same stuff over and over again…..sadly….I clearly see that in 1973 in Los Angeles at Dodger Stadium…..it was the last time I could stand the stupidity! The end…….and I began to find true peace and happiness in the World we deal with everyday! Life is Precious and Armaggeddon is absolutely no threat to me anymore…..so sad for the remaining (Like my Sister @ 66) which is totally miserable and angry and confused! I pray they too will finally see the “Light” and the Freedom it gives!

so all you people make the desicion to leave the JW. because you found another truth, jw’s are liars, or what ever your reason is, you get disfellowshipped, you find that wrong and now you what the Jw in your family to believe what you believe to be true about Jw’s or what you now believe to be religiously true. You now want that family member to now believe what you now believe to be true. looks to
me like the same treatment.

@Mike
The catalyst for leaving is different for each person. What many who have left have come to realize is that this organization exerts undue influence over its members’ lives. This undue influence is coupled with strange and potentially dangerous requirements such as exposing children to the dangers of pedophiles or the rejection of life-saving medical treatment.

What anyone believes is their own personal choice. We only seek to protect our loved ones from harmful influence. If a loved was being influenced by an unsavory individual, such as a criminal or an abuser, would you not take steps to try to help them become aware of the dangerous influence? It would not be a matter of wanting the loved one to simply believe what you believe, but rather trying to alert them to something dangerous. That’s what sites like JW Survey are trying to do: generate awareness about the undue influence of a dangerous cult.