05 March, 2009

I'm very gratified that this blog has evolved into place for serious discussion about bike, and other, matters. We get more comments and better discussion than most of the bike blogs I've seen. But I've noticed more and more impolite comments here lately. In fact, I've noticed a breakdown in civility recently on several other blogs too. In almost every case the offending words are posted by an anonymous commenter. So I'm considering changing the blog settings so only registered users can leave comments. Basically, you would have to use a screen name. Is that a good idea? Anyone have an opinion?

Also, I'm off to Puerto Rico for a few days of hiking and swimming. VO will continue to function normally, but I may not be able to answer e-mails as there is some ambiguity about web access where I'll be staying. Tom, however, will respond to technical questions.

You should keep anonymous posting open but moderate -- that is, remove uncivil posts.

I don't leave registered comments because I don't like facilitating data mining or other other forms of commercial profiling. The threats to privacy are too much to stomach. I am, on the other hand, willing to sign my name to this otherwise anonymous post.

This, I know, is a distinction only a geek could love. Guilty as charged. Still love your stuff.

I think a general breakdown in civility has been growing for a while. I don't know why, although I read the comments to your posts less because of it. This is a shame, since your blog is one of the few that really asks for feedback from the readers.

I don't have a problem disabling anonymous comments. It's been a much abused feature since the old Usenet newsgroups, and the reason it was often disabled in the past is exactly the one you are experiencing now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it is depressing.

Anyway, it's your blog, you should run it however you see fit. I will continue to read it regardless.

Chris, You are quite right. There hasbeen a breakdown in civility amongrecent comments, and I hope in thefuture that people will have bettermanners. Enjoy your vacation toPuerto Rico.Tom, Thanks for the information about the proper chainring size for the SA 8 gear hub. If it is designedfor rings of 30 to 33 teeth, then thegear range makes more sense. Preston

I haven't spent a lot of time in the comments section on this site, but I had a read back and agree you do seem to have a problem. I suggest simply moderating the comments and deleting the ones from the obvious dickheads - it seems to have one or two among your commenters. You can always ban anonymous comments later if this doesn't produce the desired effect.

It would be a shame of as few peanuts were to ruin an otherwise fine blog.

I can appreciate the reluctance to "register" -- if someone is going to mine my data, I feel as if I should have some say (and hey, why not some profit? ;-} ) That said, incivility can, and often does, make discussion difficult and ultimately not worthwhile. I don't know how to accommodate perfectly reasonable requests for anonymity and still preserve civility. If I had to make the decision I'd put anonymous comments in a queue for moderation -- but of course that's partly because I'm not the person who would have to decide on each of those comments. Good luck, and good vacation.

I haven't spent a lot of time in the comments section on this site, but I had a read back and agree you do seem to have a problem. I suggest simply moderating the comments and deleting the ones from the obvious dickheads - it seems to have one or two among your commenters. You can always ban anonymous comments later if this doesn't produce the desired effect.

It would be a shame if a few peanuts were to ruin an otherwise fine blog.

Chris--I am surprised you have extended as much grace as you have in the vitriolic anon posting. I may be guilty of some snarky posts, but I think all have been signed with my name. For those worried about 'them' finding out more about you, take on a pen name for these sorts of things. No one is going to read through an niche cycling blog, pick out subversive pro-cycling comments, work on discovering the true identity of 'Honjodave' or 'decaleursteve' and then pass this info onto Big Oil. I can promise you that--and not just because I am a Big Oil stooge. The point is, I think, to have A name attached to comments, so the commenter is known to the wider community of VO blog. Below is a code of conduct from the Sojourners blog (Sojourners is a Christian Social-Justice magazine and community based in the Washingto DC area) http://www.sojo.net/:Comment Code of Conduct

I will express myself with civility, courtesy, and respect for every member of the Sojourners online community, especially toward those with whom I disagree—even if I feel disrespected by them. (Romans 12:17-21)

I will express my disagreements with other community members' ideas without insulting, mocking, or slandering them personally. (Matthew 5:22)

I will not exaggerate others' beliefs nor make unfounded prejudicial assumptions based on labels, categories, or stereotypes. I will always extend the benefit of the doubt. (Ephesians 4:29)

I will participate in community accountability by rating posts up or down based not on what ideas are expressed but on how they're expressed, and will flag posts that violate these rules of conduct. (Proverbs 12:18) M Burdge

Simply deleting comments may be the best solution, but the thing is that I really hate to delete comments. Though I have deleted a few particularly bad ones. Please understand that a bit of snark is fine, even appreciated, so long as it's funny or informative or clever. Nothing like a good argument keep one's interest. But too often it's been just plain uninformed and mean comments posted here. Those are the sort that ruin it for everyone.

To get an uncivil commentator to mend their ways have them read David Denby's new book "Snark" before they are allowed to post again. At least it might elevate the invective to a point where the rest of us might enjoy the literary aspirations.

They don't really ruin it for me. As soon as I see that a commenter is fixated on either Surly (I really like Surly, but damned if I know what they have to do with V-O) or goods sourced from Asian Countries Other Than Japan, I skip ahead.

Now and then someone gets weirdly hostile over, say, headsets, but what are you going to do about that? If nothing else, it reminds me that there are all kinds of people out there...

By register, do you mean google/blogger? In that case, fine. As far as data-mining goes, I just cannot get that worked up about it. Stuff I want to keep private, I simply do not talk about on the internet, period. Stuff that has my name on it, I remember that anyone might read it, now, or in the future, and that does a lot to keep me (relatively) civil (especially considering that my children my stumble across it).

Yes it is a good idea. Anonymous posting brings out the worst in everyone: there is no sense of personal responsibility for one's words or actions. This is the case on many boards I've watched: as soon as anonymous posters are allowed, civility goes down the drain.

Leave the anonymous comments available, and do not delete them. Just ignore them; they'll go away. Ignorance is funny when you aren't required to correct it. Let them be wrong or rude publicly, it is their problem and not your own.

I say axe the anonymous comments. I, along with a few others, run the site Punknews.org and we were swamped in the muck of anonymous comments for years. We switched to registered comments only a year ago and the conversations there have turned better - if you can believe it reading what's there now.

I say turn off the anonymous - you can be virtually anonymous anyways given the ubiquity of OpenID services and blogger accounts.

I enjoy the "heated" discussions that appear, and participate as often as I have something to say. I find that rudeness appears when something is said that is not generally a Socialist-agreeable position. This is a problem we liberals have-we tend to dismiss anybody who doesn't agree with us and then accuse others of doing the same thing-weird.I say let it go as long as there is no profanity, but hey, it's your thing to do with as you see fit.

This rudeness business seems to go in waves. I recall someone actually using someone else's address to post a really vulgar comment in another blog not too long ago. If someone is determined, they'll get there.

But I also notice that it seems to escalate from one fairly low key offensive comment, or even just an opinion of preference, to something outrageous, and the cycling world is nothing if not full of opinions and preferences. Some people just can't stand it and have to mouth off.

I'm with Will Rodger on posting anonymously for the reasons he mentions, but signing my name at the bottom.

Tough call. I'm fascinated by how VO has been driven in large degree by internet feedback. When it works, the anonymous feedback is good for a casual user who doesn't want a traceback or a familiar one to give frank, yet constructive criticism.

However, the trend line recently seems to be pretty darn negative, though, and getting into the politics/time sink of moderation is a huge drag, maybe diverting resources at VO from producing those loose ball, high flange, freewheel hubs I pray for every night.

Given that, I'd vote for disabling moderation and see if that improves the value of the blog comments to VO, especially if those hubs show up (or at least Lauterwasser bars..).

Why do people get worked up over bike parts? If people start getting rude about bike conversations and can't be bothered to stand behind what they say, book why give them a forum? Although, they are usually smart enough to just register under a false name.Maybe we should all just do what I do on Facebook when I get 'poked' or whatever- ignore, ignore, ignore!:)

As a customer and commenter, I find it worthwhile for VO to associate my name with my thoughts and preferences. For those who feel they have a comment worth posting, it shouldn't be a big deal to take the time to sign-in first, even if using some internet alias.

as you grow and are able to sell your company to QBP ( you're gonna be rich) you might want to edit things and collect emails and names, but for now leave things in the raw, natural, unmoderated, anonymity-able state.

I think leave anonymous comments totally open. Let haters hate. It only reflects poorly on themselves. You at VO have probably thousands of better things to do with your time than make a judgement call on every single post. We registered users will gladly ignore or dismiss spiteful posts.

The time to disable anonymous posting is when spam posts start coming in.

Hiking and swimming in PR sounds good to me! Hike up El Yunque, the only tropical rainforest in the US Forest Service system. For snorkeling/scuba go to the little islands of the east coast, Vieques and Culebra--beautiful!

The great thing, Chris, is that you have this problem at all -- you have successfully attracted/built a community of participants/enthusiasts. Not an easy task, either for commercial entities or individuals. Congrats! I'm pretty happy with the traffic at my (mostly) cycling blog, but Ive had virtually no comments. And my employer has struggled to make online communities take off.

Anyway, you've got success, here, and my concern would be that in tweaking you'd end up breaking. These things are pretty fragile, and I suspect they suffer fools better than they suffer barriers to entry (non-anonymity) or what could be perceived as censorship.

Might want to ask folks who've come to the same juncture what they found worked and didn't work.

Delete comments that don't fit in the spirit of your blog. We the people have been a bit hard sometimes when typing away on our little keyboards without properly reflecting the reason why were here on your blog and other blogs.

Sadly, I think you should delete the comments that are not constructive nor fit the spirit of your blog.

I have resisted signing up for a gmail account as I already have enough accounts floating around on the web.

Sorry that you to bring up this subject, I look forward going to blog and reading up, please keep up the good work and enjoy the tropics!

I think Chris probably has enough to do without taking on the role of daycare worker--it shouldn't really be his job to delete inappropriate comments; rather it is our respective responsibility as reasonable persons to not be jerks. While this means I will have to learn how to get myself a user name, instead of just writing my name at the bottom of my 'anonymous' comment, I think that is probably worth it. It is reasonable to expect your guests not to crap in your hot tub; it is likewise reasonable for Chris and Annette to expect a certain level of civility.M Burdge

Anonymous with a signed name is my vote, but I suppose the main reason is that while I'm bike geek enough to get excited about the latest in fender hardware, I'm not computer geek enough to know how to become non-anonymous.

Nor do I read or speak French, so I'm purely guessing at most of the directions for commenting.

What are the options? I don't have a blog myself, I don't have a Google account, and I don't even know what Open ID means.

As far as my experience goes, that's the way the internet has always been.You probably notice it more now simply because your blog is increasingly more popular: increased traffic = increased population of jerks.The best method for dealing with them is not to alter your behavior or site settings in the slightest, but to simply ignore them.They can't cause trouble if you don't give them attention.

It's your blog to do with as you please. But this reply is to tell you that you won't have any more of my comments posted here if you block anonymous posts.That is all from me.Allan (I don't give my email address away for free) Pollock

I once read a guy who wrote about supermarket 'loyalty cards', and the reticence of people like me to give the stores my personal info. He pointed out that by nature the stores aren't very smart, and thus you can use this to your advantage. He used loyalty cards, but signed on as a 85 year old lesbian who buys a lot of cat food but has no pets, who owns a high-end Mercedes but lives on less than $12000 a year. Signing on to the great ol' Interweb doesn't mean you have to use your real name, or your real email address. In reality, I am Grant Petersen.M Burdgekidding about the GP bit

@ Anon 06/03/09 11:33You don't need to have a gmail address. Under the OpenID there's provisions for LiveJournal, WordPress, TypePad, and AIM logins. Like I said, most everyone has an acceptable login.

Anonyme 09:48 Your comment "as you grow and are able to sell your company to QBP ( you're gonna be rich)", assumes Chris isn't rich and will be the seller, not the buyer. Well maybe, maybe not. My real point is, I really don't have a good way of indentifying and responding to you, without your name on the posting. And also because of this, first names only are sometimes confusing when we get two "Toms" posting. Do I respond to good Tom, or bad Tom, or is he the same person with a multi-personality disorder?

I try to reserve my strongest language in venues where I'm not anonymous. Why? Because there the folks who know me, either as a persisting on-line presence or in real life have a better chance at knowing my rhetorical quirks. As for a rise on incivility on the internet, I think the filtered folks who start their positions as filtered internet tough guys either drive folks who just want to type away or are filtered trolling for impassioned responses. Done some of that, in a small way, myself.

The end result shall be more filtered subtle, possibly even filtered automated moderating systems of increasing sophistication.

I believe that many people feel the web is a place where they can let go and not have to be responsible for what they say or do. Yes, we all want our right to free speech, but that doesn't mean we aren't RESPONSIBLE for what we say.

If having us all register in order to comment forces us to be more responsible in what we say and how we say it, then I'm all for it, and will gladly do so. Those who abuse the privilege can be blocked from future comments.

There is a price to pay for freedom ... and this would be a very small one.

if punk news dot org recommends a move to 'registered' commenters and found an improvement, that speaks volumes.

Was the facetious? I hope not!

I was just sharing my experience, with a site that reaches around 300k people a day at least.

The problem isn't anonymous commenting itself. It's that anonymous commenting lends itself to be an easy exercise for one-offs. If you are coming here via some other link and see an opinion you don't agree with, it's easier to click "Anon" and fire off some inane babble than it is to fill out a form to register or pollute your blogger/Google/LJ/etc profile with the history of said inane babble. Making everyone have _some_ sort of registration keeps out the drive-by shots, basically.

On another topic, for those who are afraid of "data mining" - here's the news: you commented on this blog (owned by Google) via an IP. Google, if they are halfway intelligent (which they are), has already associated that IP with various searches that you've made and stored that information in a session or cookie on your machine. Once this happens, you might as well login - it gives at the least a consistent online "persona" that people can talk to.

I usually post anonymously, since my observations are often controversial. But I never write anything that is profane, vulgar, or in poor taste. Sadly, many people do abuse the freedom to write without signing. I hope you will not have to register entrants, but if that is necessary to maintain civility, I understand. Great bikeshop and blog.

Well, I must admit there are some times I'd like to drop a little zinger anonymously, but for the most part, I'm perfectly fine with standing behind any statement I make - doesn't mean I'm right, of course. Jack

'censorship' doesn't mean having to log into a comments board for a blog about french-inspired bicycles. 'Censorship' means the cops raiding your house, or losing your job for speaking your mind or reading unauthorised materials; in the same way if I am at a campsite and I object to fellow campers rockin' the Nickleback at 2 in the morning while they do donuts in their F-250 am I 'against havin' a good time, man....'A call to civility is only a problem if you are an uncivil person.mburdge

I really appreciate the convenience of being able to comment without having to go through the trouble of registering. It's a shame that people abuse that priveledge. I hope you can edit out offending posts without having to put up barriers. But, if you decide to institute a registration, I'll still be here.

No doubt there's much negativity in the US now what with the housing and economic implosion. More people are at home with time on their hands. There are plenty of constructive anonymous posters on the internet forums. I don't like censorship, but sometimes you have to remove trash posts to maintain decorum. Negative viewpoints and criticism is just that, but trash posts are another animal altogether. How's it go? Garbage in, garbage out.

Get rid of the anonymous and force a login. If you get rid of the convenient/lazy factor, you'll also get rid of rude commenters.

That's how Bikeforums.net does it - there are still rude commenters but it's rare (can only speak for the C&V section). In the end Tom, don't get caught up in the rude comments. There was an article in the post a while back that talked about this. It said, the majority of folks on a blog/forum will naturally weed out a bad poster. If the majority doesn't like or disagrees with you on something, of course that will play out as well. Bottom line, it essentially becomes self-controlling.

All: Don't get hung up on 'registering' your email for this site. It is not going to be switched to a forum or anything like that. It will be the same blog format we all know and love. You will have the option of signing with your Gmail address (or the address connected with your blogger account), or use your open ID handle, which most you have, even if you don't know it. Velo Orange has no access to your data. By the time you have arrived at the VO blog, your info has been picked up by dozens of other websites anyway.

As I reported him to be about 4 feet wide ( 48 inches) and 84" inches around is it not obvious to you that either I was looking at this from a 2D perspective or averaging his belt length with his overhanging gut ?

I did misquote the great business man, master mind Tom however but arguably you interpretation of his words is no better than mine. We must dig deeper.

I thought this blog was started to get peoples feedback and ideas? You might not always agree with the ideas of customers, but I don't think you should censor the VO blog because you don't agree. I know some of the responses might sting a little bit, but hey that's life. I have noticed you removing posts from the blog you didn't like or agree with, thicken up your skin a little bit or maybe ask yourself this ( What would the French do?). What is the feedback you are looking for? A bunch of butt kissers, who agree with everything you say or do. Y.T. Rebil

BS. As a counterpoint I present the case of Ignaz Semmelweis who might have saved many thousands of lives (to say nothing of avoiding his own sordid death in an asylum) if he had been more humble and persuasive in presenting his ideas.

Maybe it could be set up so we all have to register as customers. We would then have a number next to our user names, just like eBay. A dollar spent equals a point, with adjustments for sale items and such, like an REI dividend. Then no one would have to deal with the occasional suggestion posted by some random passerby.

We would then have exactly the kind of refined feedback loop I recommend in my seminars, as it happens. Randomness and spontaneity are just disruptive. Don't believe me? Go look at Bike Snob's blog, if you have the stomach for it. He only deletes spam, and the place is just a horrid mess!

After reading all this, I think we'll leave anonymous comments open for now see what happens. But I'll be more vigilant in deleteing comments that are impolite or just plain dumb. Though I may leave those that are both dumb and amusing, even if the commenter didn't intend them to be so, which is often the case.