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“Proprioception, as well as all all concepts inc. “body” & “mind” are rendered moot.”

Ok, let’s talk equalibrioception then, as in the article on the vestibular sense, the illusion of moving backwards in a railcar when in reality the train on the adjacent track is moving forward, Dogen’s illusion of the shore moving when in fact it’s the boat, and from the Denkoroku tonight:

“If you realize this state, you will not only have no further doubt about your eternal real self; you will also see through and cut through all the Buddhas and Zen masters, you will meet Yaoshan and Baizhang and see eye to eye with Yunyan and Daowu.

How can we convey this principle?

‘Without moving, the solitary boat
sails ahead in the moonlight;
As you look around, the reeds on the ancient bank
have never moved.” (#38)

The illusion of the reeds moving, similar to Dogen’s analogy. That the boat doesn’t move while sailing ahead in the moonlight, like me last night letting go to the realization of single-pointedness of mind in the movement of breath, not dancing while in full motion…

“It seems that, if a person were truly manifesting emptiness, they would be more concerned with the wonders and horrors of the world in front of them, than in trumpeting their own absence of self.”

The horrors of the world? People have been slaughtering each other for
thousands of years, Buddy. And they will be slaughtering each other for
another thousand years in the name of religion or country.

Maybe in your infinite, No-Self-upon-the-Absolute wisdom, Fred, you can tell me where to go. It would be refreshing to have an actual dialogue with these comments instead of a handful of disgruntled middle-aged men (hiya Mumbles!)dispensing snide cutdowns from their smug perches. There’s a chance that 100 foot pole you’re sitting on, Fred, has gone up your ass a fair ways.

Must…read…new post…going through withdrawal. Dude, i’m only addicted to a few internet things. email, headlines and HCZ…! Why not have banners? How does someone like Perez Hilton’s blog bring in millions in advertising? Who the hell looks at online advertising? Why the hell not have banners then? Why do i know who Perez Hilton is? Sometimes the worry of selling out or maybe that Dogen wouldn’t have done it goes too far, who cares. Get some banners…If i’m going through HCZ withdrawals then others are, too. How much is Facebook worth again? There are about 10, 000, 000 other decent sites i could be addicted to. The fact that this is the one i’m hooked on speaks to Brad’s appeal. This site brings a lot of traffic, he’d get decent money from banners.

Get the message out…i swear to god every single person i know has anxiety. They are unhappy…they need to sit, but i can’t tell them that. Brad’s spin can deliver to the masses. That new book needs to sell like a mother f*cker. I feel like the guy who stumbled accross the Beatles. What was his name? I just want to exploit, i mean…i just want to get Brad’s stuff out there, man. The coffee mugs and lunch boxes can come later. Who cares if others suffer…worry about yourself. Yes, i know…but it saved me and i can’t help but want to save others. I was with a group of people yesterday having a BBQ in the july sun, kids swimming, very simple summer day and i kept looking around and i was on cloud 9 while others were on their iphones. Why am i the lucky one who knows that looking at a wall bored out of my f*cking mind for 1 hour a day will also allow you to not want your iphone?

Or, maybe i’m just a Zen nerd…”but i’m not the only one…”

Get the new book, it’s f*cking awesome…the last chapter, ties it together.

“”Like the moon reflected in the water…” Everything is the Dharmakaya manifesting form in accordance with beings: this computer, this table this window…. Everything is like the moon reflected in the water. It is like an ass looking at a well; if an ass looks at a well, all that the ass is going to see is himself; all that you ever know is yourself.

And then the master says, “You have said quite a lot but you’ve only said eighty percent. And the monk said, “Well what do you say master?” And the master said, “It’s like the well looking at the ass.”

When the entire body is the eye, while seeing you do not see. When the entire body is the ear, while hearing you do not hear. When the entire body is the mouth, while speaking you do not speak. When the entire body is the mind, when thinking you do not think.”

‘Putting aside the entire body, if there are no eyes, how do you see? If there are no ears, how do you hear? If there is no mouth, how do you speak? If there is no mind, how do you think? If you can unfold a single pathway, you are a fellow student with the ancient Buddhas. However, putting studying aside for the moment, with whom should you study Zen?’

or maybe both:

‘Case

Ungan asked Dogo, “What use does the great Bodhisattva of Compassion make of all those hands and eyes?” Dogo said, “It is like a person straightening the pillow with outstretched hands in the middle of the night.” Ungan said, “I have understood.” Dogo said, “How do you understand?” Ungan said, “All over the whole body is hands and eyes.” Dogo said, “You have had your say, but you have only given eight tenth of the truth.” Ungan said, “How would you put it?” Dogo said, “Throughout the whole body is hands and eyes.”‘

Watching “Tom Petty Part 2” the DVD, I learn that after 9/11 a list was published of songs that shouldn’t be played by radio stations in order to discourage terrorism, and included on that list (which presumably was distributed to radio stations for voluntary compliance?) was John Lennon’s “imagine”.

“Ayres told us a long time ago that, after air to breathe, postural security is our next most urgent priority; without postural security none of us is going to focus our attention on reading a magazine, or on listening carefully to a radio broadcast, or on carrying out a complex fine motor task like sewing or writing. First we save ourselves from falling, or reorganize our position to get more secure
and physically comfortable, and then we do our reading or listening or sewing.

…Postural and gravitational security, and a good sense of equilibrium, both depend upon the effective development and functioning of three different but interdependent sensory
systems (an “Equilibrium Triad”), namely the vision sense, the Vestibular sense, and the combined tactile/proprioceptive senses.” (from the afore-linked article on the vestibular sense, or equalibrioception)

Now when body and mind are dropped, where I am has no postural and gravitational security while providing perfect postural and gravitational security.

A cursory look at “Mahasiddha” at wikipedia has no mention that I can see about a Mahasiddha also being a Bodhisattva, but maybe you can show me if you want to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasiddha

It’s not that important, I was only making a point that a Bodhisattva such as Avalokiteshvara traditionally has unlimited compassion for the world and all its creatures, kind of what you were saying you expect from an “enlightened” one, while a Mahasiddha (or other crazy wise “enlightened” adept from a pick-your-own tradition), while possibly having unlimited compassion for everyone too, is typically unconcerned about “right or wrong” and may even (in the literature) disregard popular notions of “right and wrong” and actually harm someone in order for a chain of events to occur that eventually have an outcome that is desirable, or not, with some underlying aim or intention.

“Many people feel that if they could change their life circumstances they would be happy. If they could have the right job, more money, a different spouse or no spouse, then all would be la vie en rose. Others believe that they should change themselves: become more tolerant, more loving, have better concentration. The koan says no, everything, as it is, is perfect, but you must stop seeing it as if in a mirror, as if in a dream. ”

Buddy, your main man says that life is already perfect.

Tilting at windmills is tilting at an illusion. What do you hope to change.

He’s talking about letting go of the dream of the self, not of the impetus to cease doing evil and learning to do good. He wouldn’t have praised Shibayama’s dove if he believed that classic Zen justification for apathy.

Mark, I do not find that quote in the “Introduction…” link you posted on proprioception, but i’m missing a lot of things tonight that apparently I should be seeing. This, however…

Now when body and mind are dropped, where I am has no postural and gravitational security while providing perfect postural and gravitational security.

…and your quote from equlibrioception would fairly make my point that location is not the ultimate issue.

The axe blade is getting mighty thin. Maybe if you hit me with the handle…

I, along with some others interested here, especially because you seem like such a genuine good guy (and I know that to be true for sure) want to understand where you are coming from and what you are explaining to us, but it is difficult (for me) to really get it. Come again?

Well, thanks for being supportive, Mr. Mum; sometimes I really think I’m talking to somebody else, and maybe I am, but I guess I’m mostly talking to myself. And I’m having a good time at it; as usual the notion that I might be talking to someone else serves to keep my imagination engaged at a level that allows the serendipitous to happen. I’m sure that’s why we’re all here (mostly). Sorry to be slow at actually saying something.

I am saying that it’s possible to exercise the components of the sense of location, by experiencing the sense of motion forward and back, side-to-side, and around to the left and right at the current location of consciousness. If my awareness feels like it’s located in my head, then I look to experience all three motions clearly at the location of my awareness in my head. If it’s in the lower abdomen, ditto. Right away I discover that separating out these motions however briefly can cause my sense of the location of awareness to move, and yet I can experience all three motions at the location of my awareness at once sometimes, and however briefly.

Proprioception for me involves that shift in the sense of the location of awareness, and the ability to feel throughout my body. That is why there are hands and eyes throughout the body; proprioception moves the location of awareness, so that equalibrioception continues to occur with the experience of the feeling of the part in the whole. A continuity with a sensation like the cessation of activity in falling asleep can ensue through relaxation in the activity of breath. Action can take place from somewhere other than conscious intention while such relaxation is present, seemingly connected with the movement of inhalation or exhalation.

OK, that was pretty clear and the water is moving through my head a little faster now that you’ve taken the hoe handle to it (was going to say I have a handle on that hoe, but not quite).

So this is all about catching awareness move from one place to the other in your mind (by mind I include body/anywhere at all). Why is that of interest to you? I suppose it is the gaining of insight, but into what exactly? And/or is this simply a subject that engages you enough to investigate/write about? Fair enough.

you are right, Mumbles, something missing. As I sat this morning, I was in pieces, and then something like this occurred to me regarding the bottom of the bucket falling out, the bridge that moves:

The freedom of mind is sudden, instantaneous, and the freedom of mind in the movement of breath is the difference between “hands and eyes all over the body” and “hands and eyes throughout the body”.

The stretch is physical; the stretch is in the senses and particularly in equilibrioception, proprioception, and the sense of gravity; look ma no hands, doesn’t so much matter where I’m going with it as the happiness of total immersion in the stretch.

Fred: ‘Evil and good are different in every culture and are part of the conditioning of the self.’. Any person or culture that believes rape, torture, indiscriminate killing, people starving to death because of unjust economic practices etc etc are acceptable and normal have been conditioned to be, essentially, sociopaths. Any normal person, from small child onward, would intuitively recognize these things as wrong. Let alone a so-called enlightened one.

I really thought that we’d have some common ground on this topic- that you would agree that the world is a fucked up place and that practice can alleviate that. I thought the disagreement would hinge on whether practice- staring at a wall and getting one’s own house in order- is the only way to do this, and if more direct means- politics, activism etc- are helpful or harmful. Didn’t count on the depth of your Zombie Zen ™