If NPD is a mental illness (and I'm not disagreeing that it is), and the narc's behavior is really not their fault but is a symptom of that illness, aren't we doing the narc a disservice by cutting them out of our lives? Shouldn't they have someone who will "be there" for them, someone who knows about their illness and so can take what they dish out, knowing it's not something they can control?

I'm not saying I want the narc back in my life, nor that I'm going to have any contact with her ever again. I'm not willing to take her abuse any more, and she can't have any other type of relationship with me, she can never stop herself from emotionally abusing me. I'm just thinking that it's a good thing she has a lot of other friends and family, who are all either willing to put up with her crap, or are completely snowed or cowed into submission. But what about the narc who has alienated everyone from their life?

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About the author: Zoey is the pseudonym of a 20-year-old transgender girl who’s in therapy for apparently being too much of a narcissist. She lives in Boston and her best friend is a plush turtle from the aquarium. She’s here to learn about and discuss the experiences of other people and of her own.

So, basically it's like alcoholism: they have to admit they have a problem, otherwise all the "being there" in the world is only going to drag everyone down with them?

I'm just wondering. I have "tissues" of my own, but my problems responded to having a few ppl who didn't just throw me out of their lives when the going got tough.

I appreciate finding a forum like this. When I realized I'd likely been dealing with a narc, it finally added up why I can't even imagine what color the sky is on her planet. She does and says things that are just so far from logical that it would leave me reeling. I kept telling myself that nobody is REALLY like that, nobody REALLY thinks that way, I must be misunderstanding something. And then she'd pick up on that uncertainty and use it to completely gaslight me.

I guess it's just hard to accept that there's no "getting through" to an oblivious narc.

The same could be true for any human behaviour. Or any behaviour, even inhuman.

As everything has a cause, and all those causes are obviously not the fault of any single person.

Something like NPD, is just easier to label. I have this, so i act like that.

What about greed? Right now, CEOs are killing thousands of people......for greed. I.e. pepsi, choosing to sell bottled water, twice the price of bottled pop...in some african nations. Nations, with privatized water supply.

What about sloth? Right now........everyone in 1st world countries, our governments.......and our companies, are raping 3rd world countries...sucking them dry. We're literally, killing millions of people a year.......to sustain our lifestyle. Nobody riots over that. Nobody really even admits it. It's just the new brand of colonialism.......we don't use chains........we use laws.

Anyways.....

As far as relative human behaviour goes.........it's as much fault they are jerks, as it is that your are kind. You didn't make yourself kind......and the only reason, kindness is even valued, is that most of the jerks died out long time ago. (didn't work well with others)

So yeah.......I don't know?

There really isn't a right or wrong answer..........if you can't forgive anyone, then you can forgive everyone. And if you can blame anyone, then you can blame everyone.

I think the key here......is to think about what is best for you. Both in regards to this person specifically..........and your relationship with the world, in general.

Twistedmister wrote: What about sloth? Right now........everyone in 1st world countries, our governments.......and our companies, are raping 3rd world countries...sucking them dry. We're literally, killing millions of people a year.......to sustain our lifestyle. Nobody riots over that. Nobody really even admits it.

I'm gonna go off topic and say that that isn't true. While we do not care as much as we should for third world countries, they are suffering because they have not economized as the first world countries and their government is to blame. So many of those countries want to keep their sovereignty but they can't compete in globalism to sustain their country. At best, most of them sees a break by having oil resources and certain export goods. From there the government has to plan how to use their income for the advancement of their country. It can take decades to repair a disastrous economy. Out sourcing jobs actually helps said countries, save Mexico. While some countries are taking advantage of others, it's allowed by said government. Like tourism in Caribbeans, it helps those countries a lot, but their government in return spends to pump up the tourism glamor, instead of helping poverty majority.

But yea, greed is killing people. There's enough food in the world to feed everyone but millions are starving.

I'm talking about countries that are forced to sell their water rights, or they don't recieve loans from the IMF.

I'm talking about the countries, that we here export our asbestos to......because we can. Why close an asbestos mine in quebec, when you can give a bunch of africans lung cancer?

If you don't think we use our economic power, to better our own lives.....by ripping off those that fall beneath our power........then i'm not sure you understand exactly what power is.

To quote an old song: "why you think we got guns son?"

Of course their governments are to blame.......it takes two to tango. If people don't play ball, we bribe them or threaten them. You don't get to compete in a global economy, unless the WTO says you are allowed to compete in the global economy. And you aren't allowed to compete in that global economy, unless you play by the rules.....who do you think writes the rules? The starving poor countries? Or the rich ones?

Something like 33% of the flowers sold in europe, are grown in Kenya. Why, it's cheap? Why is it cheap? Cause companies just set up greenhouses.....pump all the water out of the lake, (turn the water into roses) and the ship them off. Yes it creates jobs.......very #######5 ones. Unhealthy ones......and unsustainable ones. They pay crap wages and ummm..........they're draining the bloody lake. Less water for farmers, less water for everyone....... Why? Cause people in Europe....people everywhere don't and won't pay for what things are worth. Because we don't have to. Our ancestors had horses and pigs........

And by that.....i mean, our ancestors had access to labour. Easily domesticated animals, along with a better climate.....allowed us to more easily create food. Which gave us more time to devote to scientific advances...which is why we developed faster than other nations. The ones we still exploit........it's not like one day, we just stopped exploiting other countries..........we just stopped colonising them.

It's in people's nature, to exploit whatever we can. See chickens.........

Do you not think that we don't exploit, other nations through our political power?

Why out of all human nature.........would of all things, the geopolitical sphere.....be the one altruistic area in human society?

Well I didn't mean to dismiss the entire concept of taking advantage of the poor. It's obvious in the corporations.

But it's not only the first world countries taking advantage of the poor. Even lesser countries take advantage of a neighboring lesser country or of itself etc.

The global economy rules aren't as harsh as you make it out to be, though it could be. Look at Europe. They have a rule to lessen hate and discrimination in order to join their Union.Look at the countries that strike oil. They get huge $$$ that could shoot their country forward, though they might have to strike a deal with an interested company.

I'm not saying all this makes it ok, I'm saying some countries can't sustain themselves and the countries that are ahead cannot really intervene without compromising themselves because then they have to take care of their own country + another's. A big country can lend help to their economy and the helped country might even take advantage of said help and so on...

Sounds more like capitalistic corporations are the issue here rather than countries themselves...Some would actually benefit better from being colonized if it was in the British style because the government would practically intervene in the matters there, economy order and what not. But then there are devolutionary forces + wanting of sovereignty in those countries.I'm just trying to point out that it's complicated than simply evil vs good.

UN can be considered altruistic?

But I agree tariffs are a bitch... some countries are simply not ready for globalization.

I understand your concerns. I've expended boatloads of time and energy trying to find out how much my mum is aware of what she does. How much of it is intentional? Where is she on the scale of narcissistic obliviousness versus narcissistic calculatedness? This has been my number 1 concern. I used to belong to another support forum where really, no one cared about this and it blew me away. Thank goodness for psychforums.

Anyway - at this point, I guess my conclusion is, even if she absolutely cannot help it and is totally unaware (doubtful) - it's not my fault either. And interacting with her makes me a really poor wife and mum to my own kids. Because I have nothing left to give, and I'm always reacting to my family of origin.

alatariel wrote:If NPD is a mental illness (and I'm not disagreeing that it is), and the narc's behavior is really not their fault but is a symptom of that illness, aren't we doing the narc a disservice by cutting them out of our lives? Shouldn't they have someone who will "be there" for them, someone who knows about their illness and so can take what they dish out, knowing it's not something they can control?

Hi alatariel. Here are some of my thoughts on your questions.All behavior is the 'fault' of the person doing the behavior, meaning their own responsibility. Even when mental illness is involved. When (if) a person with profound narcissism begins to wonder why everyone wants nothing to do with them anymore, it is their responsibility to start asking themselves questions about why that might be. They might hear the same story from a number of people, on the order of "You hurt me. You used me. You pick me up and throw me down repeatedly. You cannot be trusted." It is then their responsibility to seek out information, or go to counseling, or go to their doctor, or try 12 Step, or at least evaluate their behavior. They may or may not do that, but it IS their responsibility. They get no pass just because it is not something they can control. Truth is we may not be able to control our thinking, but we can nearly always control our behavior.

I hold narcissists responsible for their behavior, while also realizing that much of what they do is oblivious to them. But just because they are unaware or oblivious, doesn't mean they get a pass from me.

I'm just thinking that it's a good thing she has a lot of other friends and family, who are all either willing to put up with her crap, or are completely snowed or cowed into submission. But what about the narc who has alienated everyone from their life?

It's horrible to be left alone, I agree. Maybe alienation might be the 'hit bottom' that causes them to self-examine????What most narcissists do when they lose people is pick up more people. A revolving door.

If think there probably are some Narcs who can only get better after they hit rock bottom, and the best thing you can do for them is to withdraw and let that happen. Also there are probably some beyond any hope at all and all you can do is save yourself. But, at the same time, I have my doubts if it is universal. There weren't many people I would have listened to, but I think there were a few, if they discussed it in the right way, and were persistend enough, I would have listened and acted. Building up the trust and respect first would be key. (Supposedly genuine Narcs respect no one, but I have my doubts about the universality of that.)

I think just having to let them hit rock bottom may be due to short comings in the current understanding of NPD and (the consequence) how ineffective current methods of therapy are. Elsa Ronningstam suggests treatment methods are getting better and seems hopeful looking forward. Maybe things will be different in the not so distant future! (As it stand now, though, I do agree that trying to help is almost certainly going to be futile.)