My topic, "Retribution", was actually asking if anyone had any thoughts regarding the validity of the currently held notion that the act of revenge makes the avenger no better than the original perpetrator.

This idea has been accepted almost by everyone as being "fact"... however my thought is that it not fact at all, merely accepted as being so.

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Originally posted by Barney_TRubble
This idea has been accepted almost by everyone as being "fact"... however my thought is that it not fact at all, merely accepted as being so.

Ideas?

Click to expand...

I don't know anyone (posters here and on slashdot excepted) who subscribe to that particular theory.

Part of the reason for such an opinion being prevalent in the US is, I suspect, the ubiquity of guns. After all, what's the point in owning a semi-automatic if you're not going to get the chance to use it? This desire to shoot living things may manifest itself in an overall assumption that retaliation is not just acceptable, but mandatory.

Back in the good ol' days when bombings and shootings were part of everyday news (I'm in Ireland, BTW), there would frequently be a plea for 'no retaliation' from the murdered person's relatives. These pleas usually went unheeded. More people died.

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Yes Banshee, in principle, i entirely agree with your point of view. However, a realist also sees that there are people out there who dont. Not only are they quite willing to "avenge", they are also simlilarly willing to take the first shot as well.

Now, if everyone held the view that you do, the world would be a peaceful place. Wonderful. Unfortunately, they dont. If it comes down to "you or them" will you still hold your current opinion and die for it, even if it means that the idea is wiped from the face of the earth?

Well, that is a difficult question, because most of the time you do not know how you react, til you have to react in such case.

I do know, that I will give my life for the man I love and my child...

Will I give my life for my country or so?
I don't know, it is not that important, as the lives of my loved ones.
So the only thing I can say for sure is that I sure, without any doubt, will give my life for the man I love and for my child...
Always, no matter the circumstances.

Whenever I hear things like "If you kill me, you'll be no better than me," I have to smile. Remember the cartoon "Mighty Max"? There was this muscle-bound guy who was an eternal warrior or something. He had been known by many names in the past, including Thor and Hercules. This time around his name was ... Norman.

In one episode, Norman had the episode's bad guy by the collars, dangling him over a cliff. The bad guy made that remark, "If you kill me, you'll be no better than me." Without missing a beat, Norman replied "I can live with that." He then dropped the bad guy to a shattering demise below.

I guess I'm of that ilk. I'll deal with my own conscience later. For now, if I have decided that you have committed something so heinous that I must take your life to settle matters, then I don't mind stooping to the level I have placed you at.

Of course, this is hypothetical. I have so far never been so angry that I wanted to kill someone literally. There are people that I wish were dead, whom I genuinely wouldn't miss, but so far nobody has pissed me off to the point that I would take their lives. What would push me that far? Well, the normal family- and survival-based reasons, but anything past that is a we'll-have-to-see situation.

Would I kill for my country? I'd like to think so, only because it has been directly attacked. I accept that I am part of a larger community on several tiers. I am first and foremost, myself. Then I am part of my family, my neighborhood, my city, my state, my nation, my culture, my world, and the human race, in ascending order. I am a big supporter of community involvment and the responsibility of every citizen to do what he or she can to make the community a better place. You can't just say "Well, I'll clean up my house, but the sidewalk isn't my problem," then sit around complaining about the state of the neighborhood. Likewise you can't stop at your neighborhood and complain about the state of your city without making the effort to do something about it. Don't clean up your city and sit idly by while your state goes to hell. Don't straighten out your state's affairs and then stop, because the state of your state is affected by the state of your nation, and so on and so on. It's all interwoven. No one is an island. It's one giant web, and when that web is threatened, I am threatened. When that web is at peace, I am at peace.

I don't know, maybe I'm just looking at too big of a picture of the relation of things, but once you've seen things that big, it's hard to go back to the smaller view.

This is really a difficult question. People have been discussing and will be discussing for many thousand years without a clear cut solution. This is why.

Suppose God (or a very powerful entity - like level 4 intelligence, we are Level one, Monkeys Level 0) asked me to tell the world that He wants everyone to get along and that to clean up the old dogmas and stupid laws and such. The first thing I will say to God: If I say these things, they will kill me. So God gives me the full power to do as I see fit. Now, a group defy me. Do I, by just a mere thought remove these people from our timeline?

OR does it matter one way or the other when this civilization will come to an end when an asteroid strikes and wipes out all life on earth or Sun goes Supernova?

Did not God said "Thou shalt not Kill" ? May be it is all pre-destination....

No killing, in no way.
Only for my loved ones, I stand by that.
I know I do not kill for just an incident or something that happened now, with the attacks at WTC.
Thousands of people died, terrible...
I saw...I saw them jumping out the windows.
You think that doesn't hurt?
To see people jumping rather then burn?
You think I liked it?
I cried, it didn't help, no...
Nothing helped, then, not any more.

Here I tried to talk to some of the young people fighting.
They only get angry and start calling me names.
And then I am lucky maybe, they don't kick me.
What to do then?
I don't know, really don't know.
It hurts not to know how to stop this madness.
How can we stop it then?
You have any ideas?
Tell it, I will help, more will help I guess.
Then we have to find a way to solve this problem, but how?
Where to begin?
In my own street? I already did that.
Give ideas, come on, lets try...

The only solution is genetic modification so that everyone can think using their "Frontal Lobe". It develops between 6 months to 1 year of age. The frontal lobe matures in spurts and takes years to develop. New functions are continually added throughout childhood and perhaps even beyond. The brain is so active in childhood it consumes 20 percent of the body's oxygen.

Improving the frontal lobe activities may help reduce the killing instinct and solve problems other ways....

You are the one we need.
You better be ready when Kmguru is coming to get you...
It can take a little while, we first have to capture a few Turbans.
To do the test on...
You understand the meaning of this I guess.
So Oxygen, be ready and get those Turbans good...
Haha...

I know a good torture for them. Let's stick 'em in a room full of grandparents armed with pictures of their grandkids and a plethora of cutesy-wutesy stories to tell about them. The terorrists will stand no chance.

Terrorist: Allah! Oh Allah save me from this torment! Allah!
Grandma: Now, my little granddaughter Missy has a persian kitty named Allah, here's a picture of them at the park. Aren't they just so cuuuuute?
Terrorist: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Here are the factors to consider: When you have hundreds of wives with hundreds of children, it can put strain on the family life. Can someone figure out why males hate the females and mothers?

Turbans can reduce oxygen to the higher function part of the brain....

Eating just bread and water as 3 meals a day and blaming the US for their condition could have some effects too.

Did you see the schools in Afghanistan where they showed 8 and 9 year old girls are taught Quran 8 hour days and no other education. What if when they are forced to bear child, they want these males to go out and kill themselves....

Not such a bad thought, lets start with the Taliban, all male...
Send thousands of women to the Taliban, they run, screaming, haha.
Good chance they will give up Bin Laden then.
No, we make all turbans, male turbans (there are no female turbans?) and give them a sex operation, we make them female...
And then, after that, we send them back...
Then you will see what happens.
It is great to fantasize, isn't it?
Nice tortures for nasty turbans, pity we do not have one, to try the tortures on.

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This desire to shoot living things may manifest itself in an overall assumption that retaliation is not just acceptable, but mandatory.
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Ok, I'll admit, I shoot living vegetables and I enjoy it greatly. I resent the implication that the joy I derive from slaughtering innocent life-forms is the only reason for supporting retaliatory airstrikes.

I hear a lot of people talking about how retaliation isn't the only way to defend ourselves but I hear precious little as to what else we are supposed to do. No, military action isn't and shouldn't be the only method we employ but I certainly see the fruitfulness in proactively removing the ability of those who have sworn to destroy us to keep their promises.

Peace can work but strict pacifism is, for the time being, a pipe dream