Everyone knows that chicks like assholes, right? Isn’t asshole just another way of saying dominant male? What we really crave deep down? The less they like us, the more attracted we become?

Nope.

It’s a popular meme, to be sure, but it has its limits, and they are considerable, falling into two general categories.

How do you define asshole?

Which chicks likes assholes?

The following letter sent to the Dude at College Candy is an excellent illustration. The Dude is very good. He’s not extraordinarily good-looking, and he doesn’t appear to have any qualifications other than life experience, but his advice is always thoughtful and usually right on target. He understands male psychology, and he’s very good at explaining it to women.

So, I met this guy at a bar a few weeks ago…he ends up buying me a drink and asking for my phone number before leaving. The following week he texts me a few times to see “what’s up,” but each time I either had other plans or was not interested in going out to the bar.

Then, Wednesday night he texts me and says plainly “I’m taking you out on Saturday, don’t make any plans.” I agree not to. He follows up with me a day or so later to make sure we’re still on. Friday night, he texts me to see “whats up” again. I tell him I’m out with a friend. He asks where and then says he is coming to meet us there. I tell him the place is about to close but we could meet up somewhere else. He gives me the name of a bar to go to and actually calls me on the way to make sure I know where I’m going and says he “needs to see me.” So, the night goes well. We talk easily and laugh. He says, he’s planning to take me to dinner and then to a party with some friends the next night. (The Saturday date we had planned earlier in the week.) As we’re leaving he says he’ll call after he gets off work.

So, Saturday I don’t hear from him until almost 8pm. He completely disregards that we had dinner plans and asks if I want to go bowling with some of his friends. I’m a little frustrated at this point so I say I think I’d like to rain check for another night. He ignores this and says, How about karaoke. So, I say I’ll see what I can do (with no real intention of trying to make it out to the bar with him and his friends). A few hours later he calls me, I say, again, that I really just don’t think it will be a good night to get together. I didn’t want to come off as “needy” or mad that he had been so flakey about our plans, so I figured it would be best just to stay away from him that night. The next day, he texts me just to say he was thinking of me.

Now I’m so confused. What is this guy’s deal? Does he like me? If he didn’t want to take me out on an actual date then why would he initiate it and then flake about our plans?

The Dude’s response:

DANGER! DANGER! DANGER!

Get the heck away from this creep fast and furiously. He’s playing a dirty game that you can’t get much out of.

He’s come on strong (damn near stalkerish at times). What he’s done to get you to go out with him is an aggressive tactic that some guys can pull off: don’t give them the option of saying “no.” By eliminating the question of “will you go out with me?” with the statement, “I’m taking you out,” then the guy is showing confidence but also creating the illusion that you don’t have the option to decline. It doesn’t always work but if the guy’s got enough swagger and charm, it’ll get the job done. Unfortunately, this is a tactic usually employed by guys whose self-confidence crosses the line of a**hole-ness.

For this flake, it sounds like it’s a lot about playing the game and not about any special interest in you.

Look at the evidence: he takes control, makes plans for you, changes plans on you, doesn’t give you a moment to think for yourself, makes you work around his schedule, his plans, whatever he’s feeling like doing, and showing no interest or consideration for how he treats you. He’s playing past the point of coming off casual and into the realm of prickdom.

The absolute bottom line is this: give him as much thought as he seems to give you. If you don’t mind being tossed around at leisure and can keep it from getting at you, then keep letting him make plans and changing/breaking them. Just know that that’s what’s going to happen. Keep the expectations as low as possible and you can’t be too disappointed.

On the other hand, if you don’t feel like being jerked around, then lose his number and forget his phone calls. At first he might try harder at getting your attention, like a little boy being told he can’t have a cookie. Then he’ll do what all flakes do, get distracted by something else and leave you alone.

How do you define asshole?

1. It’s all about him.

What he needs and wants. To see you. Now. Come here.

His choice, his advantage, his upper hand.

His timetable.

Without any regard for your feelings or preferences. He doesn’t need to consult you, because he knows what you want, which is to be pounded by an asshole. That is his mantra. In this way he justifies his actions by giving you what women really want.

2. The push-pull is over the top.

Day 1: “I can’t stop thinking about you.”

Day 2: “What plans? We had plans?”

Day 3: “I want to see you.”

Day 4: Silence.

Day 5: “I have other girls, ya know.”

Day 6: Sees you out, is super attentive. It’s obvious to your friends how much he likes you!

Day 7: “Where are you now? Come meet up.” Ignores you when you get there, flirts with another girl in front of you. Tells you afterwards that she needed to talk, no biggie. Her identity remains vague.

Repeat cycle week after week until one of you tires of it.

3. You are disposable.

For this man, concern about your state of mind is on a par with worrying about the fate of a used Kleenex.

Woman, thy name is Punani.

Which chicks like assholes?

1. Naive women.

Young women with little experience, e.g. college freshmen, stumble into relationships with assholes not understanding their underlying motives, which are purely egoic and/or sexual. Self-confidence, whether natural or synthetic, is highly attractive to women.

2. Stupid women.

Some women make the same mistakes over and over again. One can only assume they lack the intelligence to recognize a failed strategy.

3. Weak women.

They lack the self-awareness and introspection to identify their own attraction triggers.

They lack the self-discipline required to delay gratification and instead focus on the short-term reward of male attention and validation.

They lack the self-respect required to be intolerant of poor treatment.

4. Asshole women.

It’s masturbation with another warm body in the room. You use me, I’ll use you, let’s not learn each other’s birthdays.

If none of these chicks describe you, then you need to know how to repel Asshole Game. Much of it boils down to common sense, but it can be very difficult to exercise that when you’ve been targeted by a hot asshole.

Asshole Game Repellent

1. Take all actions at face value. If it looks douchey, it is. No excuses:

“He’s in a bad place because of his past relationship.”

“But you could have followed up with me!”

“That didn’t mean anything with her, we’re just friends.”

“I didn’t follow up because I wound up not going out last night.”

“Whoa, it’s not like I’m your boyfriend, chill!”

2. Penalize mixed messages.

If a man cares about you and wants to get to know you for anything more than sex, he will make sure you know that. If you don’t know it, he doesn’t care.

At the first sign of mixed messages, you get to ask what’s going on, to put him on alert that you don’t appreciate his inconsistency. Once. If it’s happens a second time, walk away, he doesn’t care.

3. Reject any man who does not demonstrate real affection.

Real affection should be evident in his physical attention, but also in the amount of non-sexual time he wishes to spend with you. If you do not see emotional intimacy developing in a real way, he doesn’t care. It may be gradual, or slow, but there should be steady progress on this front.

If despite everything, you fall for an asshole, when he kicks you to the curb follow this:

They like men who display psycho-social dominance and they put such a high premium on this dominance that they are often – in a significant number of cases – willing to tolerate all kinds of nasty abusive behaviour in order to get that.

So your stated reasons why women select assholes are just flat-out WRONG. You’re ignoring the elephant in the room – which is psycho-sexual dominance.

Stephenie Rowling

LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS! BRAVO!!!

God’s knows I’m naturally repulsed by assholes, the freaking game of waiting for someone to call you and then acting like your time is completely spendable while his is precious…so freaking annoying. I hate games. Life is too short to be wondering what the hell is someone’s deal for an unlimited period of time that you could be spending with pleasantly spending time with a person you love, trust and value and that does the same for you.
When I want DRAMA! I read a Romance Novel, YMMV.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

He completely disregards that we had dinner plans and asks if I want to go bowling

The disregarding is all the red flag you need. Run in the opposite direction. Its not like hes an “asshole”, its that he is a narcissistic who will force the relationship to be all about him, not matter how long or short that relationship happens to be. The more you invest to cope up, the more you will lose. And this applies to narcissistic girls too. Its about selfishness, lack of character, maturity, lack of finesse, empathy, etc.

Whats attractive about asshole behavior? that it stands out, its dangerous, its bold, its intriguing, its highly sexual.

So you can stand out, be dangerous and all the other things that measure for “assholiness” without being that sick individual. heck. I get called an asshole every often, with punch in the arm and all and “you´re so mean”, before the make out, without any of the following hate mail / drama / sickness.

Then some cons: most women display the asshole/narcissistic behavior. Its all about them and they expect no consequences when they hurt people around. Game / “negs” were developed to handle them because its the language they understand.

You say these are the kind of women attracted to: Naive, Stupid, Weak, Asshole. Aint that like 90% of the female population? is any of these types of women willing to learn and change their preferences?

Penalize mixed messages.

Women are the masters of mixed messages. How could they penalize them at the same time? no go.

Reject any man who does not demonstrate real affection.

Yes. Reject any man who is not real about you. But same applies to you, be real or GTFO

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I get called an asshole every often, with punch in the arm and all and “you´re so mean”, before the make out, without any of the following hate mail / drama / sickness.

A woman who punches your arm and smiles up at you from under her lashes while calling you an asshole doesn’t really think you are one. You might be, and she doesn’t know it yet. Or you might be just engaging in playful teasing.

most women display the asshole/narcissistic behavior. Its all about them and they expect no consequences when they hurt people around. Game / “negs” were developed to handle them because its the language they understand.

So negs are only to be deployed on narcissistic women? If you’ve just met a woman, and she’s giving off a friendly, earnest vibe, you won’t neg her? Or do you neg just in case she’s a narcissist and you don’t yet have enough info to know?

You say these are the kind of women attracted to: Naive, Stupid, Weak, Asshole. Aint that like 90% of the female population?

I have no words.

Women are the masters of mixed messages. How could they penalize them at the same time? no go.

If a woman gives mixed messages, she is an Asshole Chick. They make the best targets for Asshole Game. For the record, the mixed messages I’m referring to reach the level of “I like you/I don’t like you.” Not “I had a great time tonight./I’ll wait a couple of days to make contact.” You can make a woman miserable with uncertainty, and she will reward you with relief and increased attraction in the immediate aftermath. But that’s a malignancy that will never leave the relationship, so you’d better make sure you don’t want something long-term with her before doing that.

Reject any man who is not real about you. But same applies to you, be real or GTFO

Agree 100%. This is not about a double standard. I’ve actually got another post in development about “Bitch Game.”

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

how to handle an asshole? neg the shit out of him / her until he / she humbles, and keep him / her strictly on the line, and make him / her accountable for everything and anything he does with no exception or sympathy for misbehaviors

but really, unless you really reeeeaaaally like the other aspects of that person, just let that one go. It´s gonna work better that way.

http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

Awesome post once again!

What’s painful is that this version of “asshole” is considered alpha. But hey, if enough women reward that kind of behavior, then more guys will pick it up.

Personally, I wouldn’t sacrifice my ideals/morals/what-have-you, and become this selfish, narcissistic person just to pick up someone and/or have sex. But that’s just me.

Stephenie Rowling

Aint that like 90% of the female population? is any of these types of women willing to learn and change their preferences?

I think that probably Naive and Weak still have some hope, Stupid just breed stupid and asshole woman can get away with it more than ever so she has no reason to stop, till she gets too old to have men around putting up with her.

Naive can learn after a few experiences or under the wing of a wise experienced woman with good intentions (actually I knew a couple of slut women that would defend any inexperienced woman with their lives, but that was a different dynamic back then) and if they are smart by themselves.

Weak will have a harder time, they will need to get strong and learn self awareness and learn no to trust their Gina’s they are not their friends and shouldn’t be on charge of picking men. I agree is difficult and is a miracle, but is not impossible.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

A woman who punches your arm and smiles up at you from under her lashes while calling you an asshole doesn’t really think you are one.

I know. Im not an asshole, but I get called one. We have a limited lexicon here so I wanted to point there are more than one meanings for the word. Theres something good about being an asshole that is the opposite of being the creepy nice guy.

Girls don call you “oh you are so bold, strong, confident, clear about what you want, risky, sexual, and almost weirdly different and amusingly agressive!” they call you asshole.

This “some dude” giving the advice, btw, has the signs of a nice guy/ backrubber. So be careful with guys like that, too.

So negs are only to be deployed on narcissistic women? If you’ve just met a woman, and she’s giving off a friendly, earnest vibe, you won’t neg her? Or do you neg just in case she’s a narcissist and you don’t yet have enough info to know?

I dont “neg” but I tease. But really I dont do “game” at all. If I dont like something I say it out loud and its a “neg” but its not, its just the truth or my views on something. So narcissistic and full of shit people have a lot of things to peek on and they need to be humbled before the interaction can be about something other than adulating them. So this is why PUAs neg pretty girls: these are usually narcissistic and full of shit, which also makes them worthless in the long run.

If I meet a friendly earnest vibey woman that I like and she likes me, I would tease make laugh and have fun and get to know her. No games.

I have no words.

I have one: snif.

For the record, the mixed messages I’m referring to reach the level of “I like you/I don’t like you.”

Yes. Making out but then “I´ve got a boyfriend”, making plans and cancelling and then acting like you owe them something, and then calling at random hours, then played offended, demanding attention and then acting uninterested… all the classics. I´ve learned to just brush them off.

OffTheCuff

So negs are only to be deployed on narcissistic women? If you’ve just met a woman, and she’s giving off a friendly, earnest vibe, you won’t neg her? Or do you neg just in case she’s a narcissist and you don’t yet have enough info to know?

You seem to have a one-dimensional view of negs. At the lightest end end, a neg is nearly indistinguishable from friendly teasing. It says “I’m not going to supplicate you”. That’s a neg, even on a friendly girl.

Someone who’s got the bitch shield up a bit may need a little bit more. Like a girl who’s got an oversize purse on an empty seat: “Would you move your luggage?”. It’s not an attack on her self-worth.

A full-up narcissistic head-case might need, Dark Game style, some attack on their self-confidence. I have no experience there.

Calibration…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

You seem to have a one-dimensional view of negs.

I was just responding to Yohami’s definition – that their purpose is to take narcissists down a peg. And it’s fair to assume that a very pretty woman is a narcissist.

A full-up narcissistic head-case might need, Dark Game style, some attack on their self-confidence

If a woman needs anything Dark Game style, why on earth are you targeting her? As far as I can tell, that leads to sex that demeans both parties. See Roissy and Roosh for countless examples.

filrabat

Its not like hes an “asshole”, its that he is a narcissistic who will force the relationship to be all about him,

With all due respect, a narcissist is – by definition – a subset of “asshole”.

Whats attractive about asshole behavior? that it stands out, its dangerous, its bold, its intriguing, its highly sexual.

I find nothing to agree with here. The problem is deeper than just sexual attraction but a problem of deeper general currents in human nature: Fun and excitement -at least in the vivid, dramatic, attention-getting senses – are supposed to be the end-all be-all of life. Just how much of this is truly “human (read “animal”) nature” vs how much it’s cultural/media conditioning is hard to say. Still, there’s no question the latter does intensify the “human nature” part of it.

Most people are smart enough to see – eventually – that “asshole” admiration is the blind, mindless worship of imagery over content. The bad news is that it won’t be until the late 20s at earliest before most women start to see the light. Even this is unlikely to happen until they’ve had enough of shenanigans, games, heartbreaks, etc. that they start wistfully thinking about serious-minded and intelligent but “boring” types with the attitude “Yeah, they’re not the most glamorous people in the world, but they are genuine. Also, I feel much more secure and relaxed and even confident around them”.

In the end, we are going to have to redefine what it means for an activity to be “exciting” if we want to stop rewarding “assholes”. As you can see, that takes a fundamental paradigm shift in our thinking.

http://ancalgon.wordpress.com Ancalgon

Susan, you know I’ve said this before – most girls in the desirable 19-25 year old age bracket in North America have had their heads inflated by so much pampering and self-esteem boosting nonsense, that they need hardcore asshole game to bring them to a normal level. A lot of the really good-looking ones, if you see their behaviour towards men, fall into Category no. 4.

4. Asshole women.
It’s masturbation with another warm body in the room. You use me, I’ll use you, let’s not learn each other’s birthdays.

You’d do well to ask this girl how she has behaved with men beforehand.

For every girl that has a story like the one in the article, there are ten who are flakey as hell themselves (hell, this was this girl who I met at a volunteer thing and didn’t consciously game, but who eagerly gave me her number and seemed down to get together and everything. She took up to 2 days to reply to my text saying we should go out for a drink.)

I’d suggest putting these rules as caveats to the ones in the above article.

– Be grounded in reality and aware of your sexual market value
– Try to maintain a soft, graceful, feminine demeanour instead of the “popular cool, high-flying bitch” attitude
– Don’t flake or take two days to reply to texts just because some airhead said so in “The Rules”, or whatever piece of claptrap is currently on your bookshelf.

If these aren’t followed by the woman, it becomes the whole “people in glass houses throwing stones” thing.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

most girls in the desirable 19-25 year old age bracket in North America have had their heads inflated by so much pampering and self-esteem boosting nonsense, that they need hardcore asshole game to bring them to a normal level.

Yes, this is the common justification for acting like an asshole. I disagree that this is true of “most girls.” But what of the “collateral damage” you cause when you run asshole game on a nice girl? You both lose. Your asshole behavior hurts her, and you also lose out on exactly the kind of girl you’re always complaining there aren’t enough of.

You’d do well to ask this girl how she has behaved with men beforehand.

It’s pretty clear from her letter that this is not a woman who booty calls herself. She rejects his attempts to manipulate her after the first dominant “We’re going out.” I don’t see any evidence at all in her letter that she has been anything but reasonable and fair. In fact, she’s too reasonable – she should have kicked this guy to the curb already.

I’d suggest putting these rules as caveats to the ones in the above article.

– Be grounded in reality and aware of your sexual market value
– Try to maintain a soft, graceful, feminine demeanour instead of the “popular cool, high-flying bitch” attitude
– Don’t flake or take two days to reply to texts just because some airhead said so in “The Rules”, or whatever piece of claptrap is currently on your bookshelf.

Fair enough, Ancalgon. You’re new here, but FWIW I’ve written extensively in other posts about all three of those things.

http://ancalgon.wordpress.com Ancalgon

“A lot of the really good-looking ones, if you see their behaviour towards men, fall into Category no. 4.”

Or alternately, Category No. 5
Attention whore: These sort of women thrive on being praised by beta males who “like” their status on Facebook, sit with them for hours while they cry about “asshole boyfriends”, text them thousands of times a day, say “You go girl” and drop them off at the SlutWalk, and then go home sadly and masturbate. Prominently found in college towns.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

beta males who “like” their status on Facebook, sit with them for hours while they cry about “asshole boyfriends”, text them thousands of times a day, say “You go girl” and drop them off at the SlutWalk, and then go home sadly and masturbate. Prominently found in college towns.

These guys need Game, and I’d love to see them get it. Some will adopt asshole Game, unfortunately. Those men have gone over to the Dark Side and do not make good partners. To any man who would employ the strategy of stooping to the lowest tactics to tame the women of the lowest character, I would ask you to think about where that path ends – you are now a cad, capable of snagging a worthless bitch.

modernguy

What’s the alternative? Either he’s objectively high status enough that he has many other options, in which case why choose her exclusively? Or he’s not, in which case being straight forward and honest will reveal his hand and she’ll dump him. In either case he isn’t going to be what she wants. This is another case of fluffy pie in the sky thinking by women who want contradictory things and don’t seem to realize it. If it’s the first case she has all the power to move on at any time, if it’s the second case why should he reveal his hand? The real question here is what is she going to move on to?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@modernguy
I do not mean to suggest that a man should reveal his hand. In fact, eagerness is the kiss of death. If a woman says, “He seems pretty eager” you can bet she’s a few days away from being done forever, even if he’s the BMOC. It really kills attraction. So yeah, make her wonder when she might next here from you. Don’t beg her for a second date at her front door. Don’t send a bunch of meaningless texts. Women want this restraint, they have to earn your interest to value it.

But don’t flake. Don’t ignore what she says and spring some new development on her like you’re too cool to remember that you asked her out. Don’t act like you like her one day, and couldn’t give a shit the next. Be consistent, gradually reveal your hand only as she gives increasingly intense IOIs. Maintain dominance. All of this can be done successfully without acting like an asshole. In fact, I’ll go further – you will have better sex if you can calibrate your attention and your interest well below Asshole level.

http://ancalgon.wordpress.com Ancalgon

“You’re new here, but FWIW I’ve written extensively in other posts about all three of those things.”

Point. I thought of that for a moment, but then decided to go ahead and hit ‘post comment’ anyway, like a confident S.O.B :p

OffTheCuff

If a woman needs anything Dark Game style, why on earth are you targeting her? As far as I can tell, that leads to sex that demeans both parties. See Roissy and Roosh for countless examples.

Got me. You didn’t quote the key line there: “I have no experience”.

You confuse me. You just said pretty women are likely to be narcissists, and I believe you consider negs aimed at self-esteem (e.g, “baby fat”) as “dark game”. By this logic, if a guy wants a CHANCE with the hottest women, it will probably require dark game to not get blown out in the first few minutes.

Should it lead to sex, he’s not going hate that “demeaning” sex, that makes no sense at all. What planet does such a guy come from?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

You just said pretty women are likely to be narcissists

Sorry, I was still quoting Yohami there. To be honest, the most narcissistic women I know are the ones in the mid-range. Pretty women know they’re pretty, but if they’ve been well raised, they’ve been taught that there is no inherent value in that. I realize that’s a big IF re American parenting.

By this logic, if a guy wants a CHANCE with the hottest women, it will probably require dark game to not get blown out in the first few minutes.

No. There are very attractive women who would like nothing more than a male who is dominant and of good character. That’s the fantasy – Mr. Darcy. The guys are always saying, “Good luck finding a nice alpha. Might as well be searching for a unicorn.” The beauty of adding Game to a man who does have good character is that the end result is what fulfills female fantasies. Yes, women like to fantasize about the dark and brooding stranger, but they don’t want to marry him.

Should it lead to sex, he’s not going hate that “demeaning” sex, that makes no sense at all.

Well, I didn’t say he would hate the sex, lol. I’m reminded of a Roissy post where he stated that the best sex he ever had came from degrading the woman. No doubt he sleeps like a baby, but I’d like to think that most men wouldn’t get off on that. Running Dark Game on a woman, and keeping that frame through sex, is going to mean knocking her down hard. There’s an element of sadism in the sex. Some will get off on that, and certainly lots of people in healthy relationships role play, but degradation is not generally conducive to successful LTRs.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

When the pretty narcissist girls have the hots for you they make it easy.

The problem comes later, when some other dude is knocking on their door and they need to make choices. Thats when they lose it, and you either handle the whole push pull drama or get rid of them.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Thats when they lose it, and you either handle the whole push pull drama or get rid of them.

Oh yes, women do a lot of push pull. In general, I would say that women are more manipulative than men, mostly because we’re more emotionally attuned. We know instinctively how to push a man’s buttons – and not in a good way. Every single thing I’ve said in this post applies equally, if not moreso, to men repelling heartless women. I would add some warnings not to spend money on them as well.

http://ancalgon.wordpress.com Ancalgon

“Pretty women know they’re pretty, but if they’ve been well raised, they’ve been taught that there is no inherent value in that. I realize that’s a big IF re American parenting.”

Personally, I think a lot of parents will teach girls that there’s no inherent value in beauty, and that it fades. But (the elephant in the room), what about the media that they bombarded with? TV shows, advertisements, songs extolling female hypergamy are IMHO, the major culprits for women being more flaky and impulsive, and men being more asshole-y.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ancalgon

But (the elephant in the room), what about the media that they bombarded with? TV shows, advertisements, songs extolling female hypergamy are IMHO, the major culprits for women being more flaky and impulsive, and men being more asshole-y.

Yes, this is indeed the elephant in the room. Our culture has been reduced to the lowest common denominator. I’m asking men, and women too, to rise above it.

OffTheCuff

No. There are very attractive women who would like nothing more than a male who is dominant and of good character.

I agree, but it’s not what I said. I like your subtle rewording here. I said “the hottest narcissists” may require some dark game, and you’ve changed it to “very attractive women would like a tiny a bit of dominance”. Totally different things.

Adding Game to a decent guy will make things a bit easier for him, and I applaud it, but it won’t take him directly to the top of the market.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Adding Game to a decent guy will make things a bit easier for him, and I applaud it, but it won’t take him directly to the top of the market.

I can’t help but get the feeling that the “top of the market” means bitchy – the ultimate conquest. Hot and bitchy ——> love slave. How about pretty and caring? That’s what guys are always saying they want. Why do you need to go to the top of the market? Can you not be satisfied with an 8 of good character?

Mike C

Good post Susan.
.Yes, this is the common justification for acting like an asshole. I disagree that this is true of “most girls.” But what of the “collateral damage” you cause when you run asshole game on a nice girl? You both lose. Your asshole behavior hurts her, and you also lose out on exactly the kind of girl you’re always complaining there aren’t enough of.
.
Well…there is “asshole” and then there is ASSHOLE. You want to be an “asshole” NOT an ASSHOLE.
.
You have an excellent point here, but the difficulty as a guy and being in the role of pursuer is you don’t know what kind of girl you are dealing with upfront. Are you dealing with a “nice girl” or a #4 woman?
.
I remember when I was bouncing before I got together with my GF and just learning the basics of some Game, getting back in top physical shape, and this hot girl showed some interest and we were flirting a bit. Long story short, she flaked on me a couple of times and it ended up going nowhere, and after the fact I realized had I been an ASSHOLE I probably would have made some progress with her.
.
So it is tough to be the guy. You really have to get good at calibration and unfortunately that is only something that comes with practice and with some girls it can be counterproductive to overgame them or be too much of an asshole. The guy in this example is clearly a big-time asshole totally overdoing the push-pull.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

You have an excellent point here, but the difficulty as a guy and being in the role of pursuer is you don’t know what kind of girl you are dealing with upfront. Are you dealing with a “nice girl” or a #4 woman?

I acknowledge the truth of this. There is risk involved, and for a man who has invested considerable time and energy in learning how to attract women, better safe than sorry. And maybe that is the right strategy for men. But it’s not for women. Women should absolutely disqualify any man who treats them this way.

Of course, the problem would be solved if we could just match up all the asshole women and men and let everyone else be. But in the absence of good information up front, men will veer toward an asshole persona, and women should veer away.

http://www.thoughtsfromtheboonies.blogspot.com Jason

But who wants the hottest narcissists anyway?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but all moderately slim women look the same at night.

Every man needs to be strong enough that a woman can’t push him around, and every man needs the skills to talk to women and engage them. But do they really need to break through the shell of a woman whose only real love is herself?

I suppose it could be done for the reason people play video games on extreme difficulty, because it’s hard, but for me? Meh!

http://diaryofwhy.blogspot.com DiaryofWhy

I so needed to read this right now. Thanks.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@DiaryofWhy
Ah, you made my day, by being the first woman to weigh in on this post! I’m glad it resonated.

http://collegeslacker.wordpress.com college slacker

Look, I know it’s great to think that you can avoid falling for assholes and have all of these guidelines and whatnot, but girls never listen to guidelines, or friends for that matter, when they really like a dude.

Furthermore, I am of the firm belief, with results to back it up, that no type of girl is inherently immune from the asshole. I am an asshole and it works all the time on a whole spectrum of girls.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@collegeslacker

I am an asshole and it works all the time on a whole spectrum of girls.

By definition, then, you are being an asshole to women who are kind and generous, who are looking for a real emotional connection. You run your asshole game on them, pump, dump and revel in your alpha status.

And you have to look at yourself in the mirror every morning. Just saying. What kind of a man do you want to be? Don’t answer that – I already know the answer. A man with many notches on his bedpost.

Game is powerful, a dangerous weapon in the hands of an unscrupulous man.

Mike C

@ college slacker,

An old discussion kinda got resurrected on another thread. I’m genuinely interested in your take on this being a younger guy:

Susan, you say beta guys need game. But they need the “White Hat” version, not the “Black Hat” (asshole) version.

What are the characteristics of “White Hat” Game that are worth studying to enhance beta guys prospects without going over to the dark side?

Are we talking about projecting confidence, being funny, attentive, interesting?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Codeazure

Are we talking about projecting confidence, being funny, attentive, interesting?

Well, that’s the jackpot. But you know what? You don’t have to be all that. You need to be confident up front, no question. That’s the primary qualifier/disqualifier. For the long haul you need to be interesting – but I don’t mean interesting to women. Be interesting to yourself. Be a person you like and respect. That will be enough. Don’t act like you think women want you to. Act like your best self.

As for attentive, that needs to be calibrated. Too attentive too soon, and you’ve destroyed your chances. Pace yourself, and take the lead. There are lots of good resources for you, start by checking my blogroll of Being Male blogs. Also, the guys who comment regularly here are just incredibly knowledgeable and generous, so stick around.

Stephenie Rowling

So it is tough to be the guy. You really have to get good at calibration and unfortunately that is only something that comes with practice and with some girls it can be counterproductive to overgame them or be too much of an asshole. The guy in this example is clearly a big-time asshole totally overdoing the push-pull.

I actually agree with this. Men usually are not good at multitasking socially or emotionally, they pick a philosophy and they marry it as long as the lever of success is acceptable to them and the level of failure is not harmful. That is why men have a harder time incorporating Game, the amount of change is hard for them, women are more flexible (which is good for us, I’m pretty sure with enough push this horrible feminazi culture can turn on less than one generation), but is also why they can become dark gamers and never come back, their brains are more static and they will go with what works.So really the subtlety of what amount of Game to push and pull are hard to discover.
I think you good lucky that your girlfriend is not the type of woman that wants you the play psychic and have you guess what turns her on or off and you are willing to listen. Susan is right you seen like a good match on that aspect she won’t make your life more difficult playing DRAMA! games.

Stephenie Rowling

What are the characteristics of “White Hat” Game that are worth studying to enhance beta guys prospects without going over to the dark side?

With permission of Susan Athol Kay: http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
So far is the best light Jedi of Game that I had seen referenced here. Maybe Susan will have more advices.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stephenie
No permission needed to recommend Athol. He’s the go-to source on running Game for LTR purposes. That’s the sweet spot, IMO.

Anonymiss

“Pretty women know they’re pretty, but if they’ve been well raised, they’ve been taught that there is no inherent value in that. I realize that’s a big IF re American parenting.”

“Personally, I think a lot of parents will teach girls that there’s no inherent value in beauty, and that it fades. But (the elephant in the room), what about the media that they bombarded with? TV shows, advertisements, songs extolling female hypergamy are IMHO, the major culprits for women being more flaky and impulsive, and men being more asshole-y.”

What about the men who chase these women? They perhaps do the most damage by rewarding their beauty, in which they claim “there is no inherent value”.

If there’s no inherent value then why do you want to be around it so badly?

Mike C

Can you not be satisfied with an 8 of good character?
.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!
.
Some guys though need to conquer the hot and bitchy 9-10 to feed the ego. Takes some aging and introspection though I think to realize that real happiness doesn’t lie down that path.

Dudemanbro

Ancalgon:

most girls in the desirable 19-25 year old age bracket in North America have had their heads inflated by so much pampering and self-esteem boosting nonsense, that they need hardcore asshole game to bring them to a normal level.

Susan:

Yes, this is the common justification for acting like an asshole. I disagree that this is true of “most girls.” But what of the “collateral damage” you cause when you run asshole game on a nice girl? You both lose. Your asshole behavior hurts her, and you also lose out on exactly the kind of girl you’re always complaining there aren’t enough of.

In my experience, Ancalgon is right. This would be most 20-something girls that I meet. This attitude really seems to be a function on how much attention a girl gets from men. I’d say that part of your game as a guy is also being able to recognize where a girl thinks she is on the scale (as opposed to where she actually is). And you’re assuming that most guys run around being assholes to “nice girls”. I don’t think it’s really as common as you think- girls are perceptive and the truly nice ones don’t go for that type of behavior. I was actually really surprised the girl in the article didn’t recognize what’s going on- I have female friends who would have (and do) pick those tactics apart every weekend.

Unfortunately, for a lot of girls the niceness is hidden under layers of ego that you have to push aside to really talk to them. Asshole game is a side effect of the market.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

mmm Im pretty sure Stephie is a woman? and I think OffTheCuff too?

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

8+ with character is a dream woman

Codeazure

With permission of Susan Athol Kay: http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
So far is the best light Jedi of Game that I had seen referenced here. Maybe Susan will have more advices.

Stephenie, thanks, that’s the conclusion I had reached. That site and this one seem to be the most “White Hat” among a sea of angry MRA and asshole PUA sites. That stuff just doesn’t fit basically decent guys

Esau

Codeazure: “Susan, you say beta guys need game. But they need the “White Hat” version …. Are we talking about projecting confidence, being funny, attentive, interesting?”

I mentioned a while back the concept of “gynonormativity,” and the above is a perfect example which illustrates the idea:

* Why does the guy need to “project confidence”? Why can’t the girl just see his valuing his own talents (everyone has some) as an example of his being confident already?

* Why does the guy have to be funny, in some way that entertains the girl? Why can’t she try to be a better listener and appreciate what he has to say?

* Why does he have to be “interesting” to her? Why can’t she be a little more open-minded and appreciative of what he is already?

And so on, and so on, and so on. So much advice and commentary on improving interactions in the SMP start from the same point of departure: he has to do a better job of figuring out what she wants to see; it’s never the other way around, that she should learn to value what he already is. It’s always said that he has to “get better at talking to girls”, never that she has to “get better at listening to boys.” The assumption is always that her tastes are simply given and immutable and beyond being questioned, while what he has to offer is insufficient and and needs improvement. The notion that women define what is normal and men have to work to give women what they want is, interestingly, one thing that both feminists and PUA’s hold in common.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Esau
Males display, females select. That is immutable.

Jimmy Hendricks

From my experience, attractive girls in college break down like this:
.
30% actively seek out asshole behavior. This group usually consists of your total sluts (usually in the 5-6 range) and the bitchy “top of the market” girls Susan speaks of.
.
50% don’t actively seek out asshole behavior, but will ultimately choose asshole behavior over a nice guy if given the choice. These are the “fake good girls.” Despite what they often say, when the rubber meets the road they’ll take a casual hookup with an asshole over a LTR with a nicer guy.
.
20% know what it takes to have a quality LTR, understand it’s in their best interests to avoid asshole behavior. However, like all girls in college they still make occasional “mistakes” with alphas.
.
.
It’s easy to see why guys choose to run asshole game: It’s the most efficient, and gives you the widest range of attractive girls to choose from.
.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Esau,

Thats the point. If you are trying to project confidence, be interesting and funny FOR THE GIRL then you are placing her above of you in the SMP and therefore made things harder for you. She´s gonna play the judge and you´re going to seek validation and be her entertainer. Whatever you do from that point is try hard.

If you dont place above of you, then you dont try to project confidence nor being interesting or funny for her, which automatically frames you as higher in the SMP and an asshole: you dont care about her validation, so you do stuff as it fits your mood. So you tease, lead, set the mood and get away with whatever you want with no repercussions.

However that, taken to the extreme, makes you the kind of asshole people should avoid.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Males display, females select. That is immutable.

But the best way to display all of your attributes is when you dont

GudEnuf

And you have to look at yourself in the mirror every morning. Just saying. What kind of a man do you want to be? Don’t answer that – I already know the answer. A man with many notches on his bedpost.

Game is powerful, a dangerous weapon in the hands of an unscrupulous man.

Those horrible sex-positive feminists have been saying this for quite awhile now. Clarisse Thorn’s “ethical pick up artistry” advice and Amanda Mercotte’s counter-offer drive home the point that not all’s fair in love and war.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@GudEnuf
No, those horrible sex-positive feminists say that Game is always bad. As you know, I disagree with that. They reject any tool that provides males with any power or advantage, period, even if it is not abused.

Amanda Marcotte admitted that her dating advice column can be summed up as “Don’t be a loser.” *smirk smirk* She hates the Y chromosome.
I’ve heard that she has a relationship with a cisgendered male. I suspect he wouldn’t pass the test:
testiculos habet, et bene pendente

Esau

SW: “Males display, females select. That is immutable.”

Susan, if you read closely you’ll see I’m not disputing that at all. In fact, I’m not talking so much about what people do, as about what others, commenters and commentators of all kinds, say about what people do.

My point is, everyone spends a lot of time talking about how males should display better, and very little time about how females should select better. (Though you put some time in on the latter, more than most, you’re still weighted far toward the former in your writing.) Why is this? Why do we all think this way? Why is it, that whenever there’s a communication failure or the lack of a good outcome, we always focus on the angle that he could have consciously done better, while accepting that she was just some kind of sub-conscious, unthinking responder? It’s really quite a sexist view, if you think about it; but that’s just the beginning of the perils of gynonormativity.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

My point is, everyone spends a lot of time talking about how males should display better, and very little time about how females should select better. (Though you put some time in on the latter, more than most, you’re still weighted far toward the former in your writing.)

I dispute this. The latter is the premise for HUS. I do write for the fellas sometimes, but in general I’m nagging women to make good choices.

http://collegeslacker.wordpress.com college slacker

@Jimmy Hendricks

I would say that is a very, very accurate breakdown.

@SW

I go out of my way to tone down the asshole with the nicer girls after the hook, but I didn’t get them in the first place being nice from the start.

I’m not one to shy away from emotional connection, but nice girls are usually the only ones who get a shot at it with me because they are different than most girls around here.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@college slacker

I go out of my way to tone down the asshole with the nicer girls after the hook, but I didn’t get them in the first place being nice from the start.

I’m not one to shy away from emotional connection, but nice girls are usually the only ones who get a shot at it with me because they are different than most girls around here.

Fair.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

everyone spends a lot of time talking about how males should display better, and very little time about how females should select better.

There are a lot of magazines and stuff to help women select better. Thing is, what women are really interested in doing is about how to “attract & keep” better, rather than changing the criteria they use to select men.

Talking women into changing the way they select men is anti nature and theres little incentive, since women have no shortage of male offering. They are already selecting what they want. What they can complain about is that the ones they select dont stay with them / end up with some other females / are mean.

Men on the other side have all of the motivations and drive to change their approach and do the work. If you tell men that “being an asshole is bad” chances are a lot of them will work really hard to be nice. Now if you tell them to get a bit more badass it creates a contradiction. Men are really trying to play the part here.

But yes – it women could learn to pick better men, life would be easy.

Esau

Zen master: “you dont care about her validation, so you do stuff as it fits your mood. So you tease, lead, set the mood”

Sorry, you’re running much too deep for me here. If you’re teasing, leading, setting the mood, then aren’t you doing that exactly because you know it’s what she’ll respond to? Following these instructions is still placing the woman’s values first, it seems to me.

Also, you might try a survey to ask, of men who are neither rich nor handsome nor naturally dominant, how many followed exactly the “do stuff as it fits your mood” philosophy and had it result in being sexually attractive? My guess is, that would be a low, low, low percentage; just sayin’.

108spirits

This is not an example of asshole game. It’s an example of clumsy game. I’m willing to bet that the guy is on some kind of PUA forum where the experienced ones are coaching him, the newbie (and I can see the seniors are facepalming at his clumsiness). You can see him alternating between being his former nice-guy no-game self and new assertive “pickup artist”. His problem is not that he’s an asshole, but that he is incongruent, and that he is too new to Game and therefore wielding it like an untrained kid with a nunchuck. I can describe exactly what and why he’s making these moves, because I’ve seen them a million times on “community” forums. “The Dude” is just whiteknighting for the ladies here and doesn’t have a clue.

Still, the little part of asshole game he picked up has given this girl more of an emotional rush than his former boring nice-guy self could ever have. She’s now very “confused” and has taken a big effort to write to a dating advice column about him.

Btw if you ignore everything about the guy and just focus on the girl’s responses to him, you* may be able to pick out a lot of seemingly flakey behaviours typical of girls in this modern SMP that guys have become either paranoid about or weary of.

*Only if you’re a guy who’s been active in the dating scene, of course.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@108spirits

Btw if you ignore everything about the guy and just focus on the girl’s responses to him, you* may be able to pick out a lot of seemingly flakey behaviours typical of girls in this modern SMP that guys have become either paranoid about or weary of.

I am genuinely interested to know how she was flakey. Can you lay it out for us?

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Esau,

If you’re teasing, leading, setting the mood, then aren’t you doing that exactly because you know it’s what she’ll respond to?

No, Im doing these things because they fit my mood, not because I think the person Im interacting with might like it. When you are on a party and go talk to somebody, do you do it because YOU want some conversation, or because you want to provide conversation to somebody else? how about picking food? is it food that you like, or food that you think somebody else likes? how about your career? are you doing whatever is your choice, or are you doing whats expected from you? are you on the driver seat or the passenger?

So you are talking to a girl you like. When you smile at her, do you smile because you´re happy or because you want her to see you smiling? if you make a joke, do you make it because you are laughing about it, or because you want her to laugh? are you trying to find how much your really like her, or are you trying to make her like you?

I hope these questions solve yours… its all about the accent.

When I lead, set the mood, tease, Im getting my way and setting how people should interact with me and setting my intentions clear and my own world there. Then whatever people do about it is their choice.

When you dont come from a position of strength, you join the party asking everybody else what your position on the ladder should be, asking if you are enough to join, seeking validation, and no one can really give you what you are asking because they are busy with their own mess. So more likely you will end up as somebody else´s toy in somebody else´s ego game.

how many followed exactly the “do stuff as it fits your mood” philosophy and had it result in being sexually attractive? My guess is, that would be a low, low, low percentage

The “just be yourself” makes you lose when “yourself” is a loser. So if you lose when you are being yourself, the best formula is to keep being yourself and work to become a winner, rather than, appearing to be a winner but still wanting people to love you because of your now hidden real loser you.

Chico

The notion that women define what is normal and men have to work to give women what they want is, interestingly, one thing that both feminists and PUA’s hold in common.

Yes indeed. Women are the gatekeepers and get to make all the decisions. It sucks being male in this society a lot of the time. We have all of the responsibilities and expectations put on us, with none of the perks.

But just remember, we don’t expire nearly as quickly. Men age like wine while women age like milk. See, always a silver lining.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

It sucks being male in this society a lot of the time. We have all of the responsibilities and expectations put on us, with none of the perks.

This is a ludicrous statement. It may be true that it sucks being a male who is having difficulty attracting women. And you can do something about that. There are plenty of women whom no one bothers displaying for, many who never get a turn to select.

DF

Mrs. Walsh

Game and its darker elements, is really the female communicative language used against them, this is hard to explain I’m sure some of the men will do a better job than I. But it was Roissy who said you have to think like a women and then use it against them. The flaking and mixed signals above, displayed by the asshole, is typical behavior of women today. Its that women are used to men being direct and predictable in their communication. When men use feminine communicative style, aka game, with wild abandon like a blitzkrieg strategy they now ironically find it frightening.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@DF

But it was Roissy who said you have to think like a women and then use it against them.

Do you see anything wrong with this? The lack of humanity? Be careful – those who behave like Roissy will end up like Roissy.

When men use feminine communicative style, aka game, with wild abandon like a blitzkrieg strategy they now ironically find it frightening.

Asshole Game =/ feminine communicative style. If it does for you, you need to mix with a new group of women, and stop picking up sluts in bars. Personally, I find the use of the word blitzkrieg in a discussion of mating to be frightening.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

“be yourself” fails when all you want to do is to please

DF

Males display, females select. That is immutable.

Different cultures, classes have different mechanics. Again this more a western notion. Other cultures provide a goldmine of info and tactics if people are willing.

Esau

“I hope these questions solve yours…”

Hate to dash your hopes, but no; sorry. No offense, but your writing reads like self-contradictory gibberish to me; for example I’m sure that I have no idea what this means:

The “just be yourself” makes you lose when “yourself” is a loser. So if you lose when you are being yourself, the best formula is to keep being yourself and work to become a winner,

The whole “if X is causing you to lose then keep doing X and win” is just logically meaningless to me; at best, it might be some kind of modernist poetry that I just don’t get, being either too classical or to shallow.

[I will point out, that to the extent I can make any sense out of it I think the sentiment that “just be yourself” makes you lose when “yourself” is a loser is rather vicious and unkind in the extreme. I’ve known many dozens of people, male and female both, who were underappreciated, ie they “lost”, but were really fine and excellent people of whom it is absurd and atrocious to say that “theirselves were losers”. Sometimes, you know, the judgement of the world really is stupid and wrong.]

Anyway, please, don’t waste any more effort on me; the more you try to elaborate the deeper I find myself in over my head and it’s not doing either of us any good, I don’t think. There’s an old saying, “Never try to teach a pig to sing, since it’s a waste of your time and it annoys the pig.” So, kindly move me to your “ignore” list and put your effort out for the people who can appreciate you better.

Stephenie Rowling

But just remember, we don’t expire nearly as quickly. Men age like wine while women age like milk. See, always a silver lining.

There is also The Flip women and men change market value around late 30’s with achieving higher status and female losing theirs. Monogamy and early marriage was a good combo, because it allowed men to marry on the pick of their sexual desire to a young partner, satisfying their libido and giving them incentives to no engage on risky behavior and by the time the switch happened he was less willingly to leave a partner he shared a decade or more of life with plus kids, while the woman managed to more or less secure a partner after her market value plummeted. Of course it was no a perfect system some men did leave their wives and some women found on teens inexperienced males a new market, but overall the majority managed to win. Of course now is a free market and the lack of rules make all this things difficult for all involved.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Esau, yeah, the message is getting lost, maybe someone else will be able to put this in a way that is coherent for you.

Honestly, since you posted the question “but if you are doing stuff, arent you doing it because she wants it?” my brain is spinning because I would have to bring the whole context here. And then we would have to agree on the context, and I see you already took offense because I said “loser” and “win”

Let me try again. If you dont get me, thats fine.

Do you know the phrase “dance like nobody´s watching?”

When you act and perform and do stuff like theres no obligation, force, etc, when you do stuff and be whatever you are, relaxed and direct, that when you are expressing yourself better.

So when you are not trying: thats when you express yourself better. When theres no ego, when you are not thinking about it, when you are not in your own mind.

Say, when you are singing in the shower.

So that state is attractive, because is real. Its effortless, it isnt reactive, you are not worried, you are not seeking validation, you are being “yourself”

So whatever was in you, it can be appreciated there.

And then for the second part, the loser / winner thing.

Singing, dancing, talking, walking, doing, being like nobody is watching you, doing and being all of it in an effortless and natural way, doesnt make you ANY GOOD at those things.

To be good at those things you need skills and experience: singing lessons, dance practice, talent, etc. You need a lot of stuff that, to develop them, you have to actually care about validation, technique, you have to repeat, learn, absorve, so, its everything except “being who you are”. Its about trying to become something you are not, yet.

So thats the mix. You go, get the skills, get fluent with people with acting classes, or a job that puts you in the public, face your fears, find your blocks and remove your blocks, take the choices you need to take in life, the stuff thats truer to what you really want and need balls to accept… all the real work that doesnt feel like “being you” but a struggle, and you and win that game. And then, once you´ve got the skills, once you dont have fears, once you are at peace with who you are.

You drop all of the burden, you relax, and you play. And whatever you do there is and feels natural.

So. Just be yourself all the way: find whatever you are really about and do that fight until its lasts consequences. Let it destroy whatever it has to destroy and whatever expectations have been set on you. And then perform on top of that relaxed, again giving a shit about whatever is expected from you.

So, in the girls case. You say jokes because you want the mood, lead because you want, do stuff because you feel like, smile because you´re happy, ask the questions because you want to find stuff about her.

That, opposed to stand there and doing stuff because you want to “entertain” her

But standing there because you are entertained. By her.

I hope this makes sense, but if not, oh well.

filrabat

This simply tells me that the TRUE alphas out there are heterosexual men who have very little, if any, hormone fog clouding up their brain; for the hormone drunk guys are in a quite weak position. If he learns Game (in the get laid easier sense) just for the purpose of winning over a woman (as opposed to genuine, lasting self-improvement), isn’t he just seeking womens’ approval (something most PUAs claim is not at all attractive in men)? How can this be anything but a “high beta” at best? Sure there’s that one in 500 who will enter the “mid to high Alpha” ranks, but that’s nearly as poor odds as winning a lottery scratch game.

For this reason, I have a radically different definition of “Alpha”, stemming from my personal philosophy that you should never chain your happiness to things and circumstances you cannot control. In other words, it’s not so much about any kind of status or appeal you have as much as it is your ability to not need those things to be satisfied with your life. By placing your self-worth in outside things and circumstances, aren’t you making your mind and feelings a slave to those things and circumstances? This philosophy may not be about attracting women, but despite this it will make women more attracted to you (or, at worst, less of a turn-off).

From this basis, it appears the true heterosexual alpha is one who is perfectly happy without any women in his life**, and, more important, concentrate his time, money and energies on sustainable achievements – ones that last a long time, if not a lifetime. In short, if he gets a woman that’s fine, if he doesn’t get a woman, that’s fine; for he’s got more productive causes to devote his energy to.

A hard ideal to follow? Definitely. But on the other hand, many teen and 20-something betas can save themselves a lot of misery by incorporating this viewpoint into their thinking. It may not give them all the power they desire, but it will make their self-esteem less vulnerable to circumstances they can’t control.

Also, some other poster (not me, i assure you) said something to the effect “if you spend twice as much time on concrete non-romantic improvements and goals, you’ll get a woman in half the time” (or something like that). Wish I remember who it was.

**Not TOTAL indifference toward women, as that is, by definition, either asexuality or homosexuality.

Mike C

Also, you might try a survey to ask, of men who are neither rich nor handsome nor naturally dominant, how many followed exactly the “do stuff as it fits your mood” philosophy and had it result in being sexually attractive? My guess is, that would be a low, low, low percentage; just sayin’.
.
So what. I’m not sure I follow your entire line of thought except complain about the reality of attraction and male-female interaction, and wish it was something different. A guy doesn’t HAVE to do any of the things like “project confidence” and can just hope something will work out or devote himself to other pursuits.

Rum

A deep-dyed beta reading this would be inspired to get up and run into freeway traffic.
Why, after all, does this kind of thing need to be written in the first place if asshole game did not, in fact, strongly attract and gravely temp the most bang-able females? But the message needs to be constantly repeated apparently because it does not seem to take.
If I had a sister I would be telling her this kind of thing. If I had a son I really do not know what I would tell him. I would make sure he knew just how young women were wired. That is, what tempted them and what inspired boredom.
I would not lie.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Rum

If I had a sister I would be telling her this kind of thing.

Exactly, and that’s what I’m a stand-in for. Women need to know this, it’s in their best interests. Does it make it harder for beta guys? No, go ahead and learn Game but stay off the Dark Side. I’m talking about not using people. Not playing a zero sum game. That is seriously effed up.

filrabat

Now that Mike C posted, and recalling our exchange several weeks ago, I’ll briefly state why I post what I post. Clues are in my immediate above post itself – helping young men gain greater control over their own lives by showing them there IS an alternative, even if it’s not always as simple as I make it out to be. But for reasons below, I disagree that your position in that earlier post that “sexlessness in males will leave them in a big funk” is as chiseled-in-stone as you make out to be. (the brief exchange is at the bottom of this thread

On the other hand, I think that, whatever biological urges there are for young men, the culture (both the day-to-day social one and the media environment) makes it worse – namely by artificially inflating those urges. On one hand, we have the young male urges as they naturally occur – on the other hand, you have the media/3D-world culture symbiosis spewing out the message “Everyone who’s ‘anyone’ ought to be getting laid, so you’re a chump if you don’t”. I think these to factors feed off each other – as if one were created to support the other. They certainly don’t do anything to counteract the message “There’s more to life than getting laid, or even having a hug from a woman”.

Clearly this is not a healthy situation for any young man who achingly desires women or sex. For some men who may happen onto this blog, I’m trying to give a different approach that is rarely discussed on the “how to get women” blogs, which by their very nature neglect this angle. There IS a way to preserve your self-respect without having a woman in your life, and that starts from not needing one in the first place (i.e. women are a nice option to have, but if she doesn’t come along, eh, no big deal).

@Stephaine

“The Flip” actually starts very close to 30, although this varies greatly from individual to individual – but for the median single man and median single woman (never-married or divorced), I’d say it’s at about 31, plus or minus 2 years. The only 38 year old women I know of who are as in-demand as a 33 year old man are likely to be non-bitchy, non-shit-testing (or at least very light such testing) look-a-likes of Alyssa Milano, Kelli Williams, or Jennifer Connolley — and with a late 30s or older mental maturity (both cognitive and emotional) besides.

(The following doesn’t describe all early 30s single men, but a surprisingly large number of them. I actually experienced this at 28-29 years old )

Not an insignificant part of this is one thing not often talked about – a 30 year old man is not nearly as horny as a 20 year old. Hence his very motivation to woo women likewise decreases. Also, he’s seen what divorce and it’s frankly scary kin can do to many men. Even without this, a typical 30 year old single man simply is sick of the drama, games, etc. In short, he is looking to simplify his life by deciding what’s truly important and what is a superficiality at best and outright dead weight at worst.

http://ancalgon.wordpress.com Ancalgon

@Jimmy Hendricks : Perfect breakdown.

Proves that being an asshole (strong, confident + cocky, negging, teasing, pushing away) works in college.

BTW the chap described by this girl is not even being a straight up asshole. As someone mentioned, he is probably alternating between being needy guy and aspiring PUA. Which, if anything, proves what levels female hypergamy has driven men to. (Nice guys are learning PUA just to try to bang the homely 7).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ancalgon

(Nice guys are learning PUA just to try to bang the homely 7).

Do I need to point out what a ridiculous statement this is?

Plus, Susie, you might want to rethink the use of some PUA terms in the post.

My father is the only person who may call me Susie.

As far as I know, push-pull is something to be used in person, when you’re actually face-to-face with the girl.

No way. Push pull pervades all the communication – it’s a strategy to keep women on their toes and must be applied consistently throughout the relationship. In my example of Days 1-7, I included a mix of texting, in person, Facebook chatting, whatever. That’s how most young people connect – a mix of all those things. Sadly, very few phone calls.

http://ancalgon.wordpress.com Ancalgon

Plus, Susie, you might want to rethink the use of some PUA terms in the post. I’m fairly sure most guys will agree with me that you can’t do much push-pull over texts (and certainly not in the way he’s doing it). As far as I know, push-pull is something to be used in person, when you’re actually face-to-face with the girl.

Stephenie Rowling

the culture (both the day-to-day social one and the media environment) makes it worse – namely by artificially inflating those urges.

I actually agree with that, I remember reading and interview with Rock Hudson asking if it was hard for him to hide his real sexuality and he say that it wasn’t because it was normal for a guy not to be having sex even though they had girlfriends, we had have periods of sexual restraing in history were men could concentrate on other endeavors without their sexual urges taking the best of them. But sluthood culture is not only pervasive is on your face, the sluts can be seen a mile away, internet spread it like powder and the men that are not getting any can see others with plentiful, and gaining even more. Is the same principle for why people get ambitious they see other people with money, travel, expensive things and they also want some of that. So I do agree that the culture sell sex is for winners no sex is for losers or close minded people and all the consequences for that.

ExNewYorker

My point is, everyone spends a lot of time talking about how males should display better, and very little time about how females should select better.

.
Ahhh, you point out a subtle little double-standard in the general advice area. One answer, which is only partially true*, is the standard: “males display, females select”. But another answer is “the target audience doesn’t want to change their enjoyable habits”. Sort of like how your average obese person doesn’t want to hear about cutting the junk food, changing their food “tastes” to include healthier fare, and doing some hard work known as “exercising”. The harder path is not so appealing. In this day an age, where female “freedom” is the highest good, any talk about females selecting better tends to be outright heresy. It’s much easier to shame those darn betas to man up. Problem is, more often than not, the Dark Side is much easier to follow, especially if Jimmy Hendricks’ female numbers breakdown is anywhere close to true…
.
So how to repel asshole game? Well, it’s easiest if you avoid playing that game to begin with, but since that advice just won’t cut it (tastes too much like broccoli), I’ll point to the words of a good old cad http://solomonreborn.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/drive-thru-boyfriends/
.
* It’s only partially true because in the modern SMP, males have the “final” selection, that little ring around the finger. A lot of guys are learning they don’t have to take that final step.

Stephenie Rowling

I wanted to mention that the modernized remake of Dangerous Liasons Torvel doesn’t die for being an idiot, but becomes modernized and liberated wise young woman…yep message totally lost.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stephenie

I wanted to mention that the modernized remake of Dangerous Liasons Torvel doesn’t die for being an idiot, but becomes modernized and liberated wise young woman…yep message totally lost.

A good remake is a very, very rare thing.

108spirits

My point is, everyone spends a lot of time talking about how males should display better, and very little time about how females should select better.

When you’re giving advices to guys who want to do better with women, you don’t tell them that the women should select better. It’s a waste of time and doesn’t help the guys.

In saying that, half of Game is about qualifying women, or getting them to qualify themselves to you. Make them sweat, make them prove themselves worthy. Game teaches men to both display AND select better. I’ve seen men hitting rock bottom coming to Game sites asking for help. The most miserable ones aren’t the ones who can’t display very well, it’s always the ones who chose poorly and made a terrible selection.

If the women select poorly, that’s their problem, not ours.

——-

@Susan

I don’t think you actually get what asshole Game is. This is clearly NOT an example of asshole Game. Notice how the guy kept trying to get her out on some kind of date? His mistake is that his needy nice-guy self is trying to get her on a traditional date (from buying her a drink at the bar, to meet up with him for drinks, to dinner date) while his aspiring PUA self is trying to get her on an action date (bowling, karaoke). It’s pretty clear to me he was planning to get her on a dinner date, then his PUA mentors told him that it’s a bad investment, get her on an action date, which he then tried (badly) to change the plan. Either way, those dates are not part of Asshole Game because, well unless the girl is freaky, you can’t bang her in public, and you’ll still have to get her somewhere for sex, which can be challenging, logistically. Those are “getting to know each other” dates, albeit very clumsily done in this example.

Btw if you switch the sexes around, his actions are what girls do to guys on a regular basis in the dating scene, and we also call them “flakey”.

In Asshole Game, there’s no date, and the guy makes no attempt to date the girl. It’s “bring the movies” (read Roissy more ) or something similar. The girl would be told to hang out with him at his house, her house or somewhere with a bedroom (or couch) within 10m.

The beauty of Asshole Game is that girls never ever call those guys Assholes (not talking about the playful asshole thing like our high as a kite Yohami would say). Usually everyone else would call him an asshole, while the girl would say “he’s a nice guy, if only you know him as I do”. Without fail, the ones getting called Assholes are always the clumsy no-Game guys who don’t get laid.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@108spirits

I don’t think you actually get what asshole Game is. This is clearly NOT an example of asshole Game.

Well, it’s pretty clear that he was trying to run asshole Game. He just wasn’t very good at it. Although this woman is clearly still interested, so it hasn’t (yet) been a total Fail.

The beauty of Asshole Game is that girls never ever call those guys Assholes (not talking about the playful asshole thing like our high as a kite Yohami would say). Usually everyone else would call him an asshole, while the girl would say “he’s a nice guy, if only you know him as I do”.

Correction: Naive, weak, stupid and asshole girls never call those guys assholes. These women are the ones who keep assholes in business. Yohami says they’re 90% of all women, I disagree. I’d say a solid 50% though.

The problem is, if you want to be with a quality woman, a quality person, then you’ll have to be a quality person yourself. And that means no manipulative asshole bullshit.

Jonathan Manor

This was actually a really hard read for me. The type of women that men like are “sort of” jerks. Technically. They’re simply men who can disagree with women and have their own thoughts, not men who are “beta” and whose life completely depends on every second of pleasing women. Those men are smothering. Yet the context of those independent men who are seen to be attractive, have picked up the term “assholes.”

That guys game was confusing. It’s hard to say that he was asshole because he was being reaallly needy at first, and that’s beta. That’s pathetic. Then he comes back and tries to pull out the “don’t make plans I’ll meet you whatever. . .” That’s an alpha line with a sort of frustrated delivery. Why is it an alpha line? It’s because it’s not in the form of a question. Betas tend to ask a belligerent amount of questions, where are you, what are you doing, when do you get off, what do you like, what’s best for you, laddi da. The alpha would say something along the lines as, “I’m in the city, you should come hang out.” I’m pretty sure that sounds abrasive when you read it, but that’s only because we’re using the context of identifying assholes right now; really the line is more or less socially acceptable.

This guy has terrible game, you shouldn’t call him an asshole as much as he is an idiot, or bipolar. There’s no connection with the words dominant, or alpha, or asshole in this example. There’s only some guy who might get lucky because the woman specimen decided that 27 different texts asking where she was, isn’t totally creeper status.

Creepers are not assholes, they’re creepers.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jonathan Manor

Yet the context of those independent men who are seen to be attractive, have picked up the term “assholes.”

No. Being independent and attractive means that you don’t have to resort to being an asshole. You can actually reveal yourself without fear of being shot down. This is much more difficult that being an asshole. Asshole Game is the shortcut. It’s the lazy man’s/coward’s refuge.

Jonathan Manor

I agree with 108spirits :/

Chico

Also, some other poster (not me, i assure you) said something to the effect “if you spend twice as much time on concrete non-romantic improvements and goals, you’ll get a woman in half the time” (or something like that). Wish I remember who it was.

No, that’s not true. You’ll better yourself in other ways, but you’ll also approach less. The result will be the same or worse. Take it from a guy who’s tried this strategy before.

Remember, women don’t approach.

Chico

There are plenty of women whom no one bothers displaying for, many who never get a turn to select.

Sure, but they need to lose 100+ pounds.

(Notice how similar that is to “those guys need to learn game”)

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Sure, but they need to lose 100+ pounds.

I knew this would be the immediate response. The number of college educated women (virtually all readers here) that need to lose 100 lbs. is less than one percent.

Chico

I knew this would be the immediate response. The number of college educated women (virtually all readers here) that need to lose 100 lbs. is less than one percent.

Yes, I’m exaggerating, but the number of women on this continent over 40% body fat is not as small as you’d think (obesity is over 30%BF for women). It’s very seldom that the women not getting male attention don’t have this problem.

But hey, obesity is not an epidemic. Gameless beta males are.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

But hey, obesity is not an epidemic. Gameless beta males are.

No one is putting down beta males here, that sounds self-pitying. I’m drawing a distinction between Dark Game and Light Game, Sith and Jedi.

108spirits

Well, it’s pretty clear that he was trying to run asshole Game.

He wasn’t. He was trying to date her. All of his plans, as stupid as they seem, involve going out somewhere public with her to spend time together. His incompetence is making him appear as an asshole, somewhat, but that’s not Asshole Game.

Asshole Game: no dates, just booty calls or convenient “hanging out” that’d lead straight to sex (booze & drugs are often involved). Hardcore on the negs, well beyond flirting (normal negs). Jealousy game. Not much affection, definitely no gay “thinking of you” TXT.

There are also many degrees of Asshole Game, calibrated for the “right” kind of girls. Typically lawyers or feminists get the nth degree.

For the record, I don’t do Asshole Game at all as it doesn’t suit my nature. But it works, and works on more women than you think.

VI

Which chicks like assholes?

A man who acts the way he wants to act is signaling that he doesn’t need any one woman’s approval, probably because he can get another one easily, therefore he is high quality. Women want a high quality man, so they can have his good genes. It’s basic evo-psych.

Asshole is just one manifestation of a man who is not seeking approval. A guy who doesn’t seek approval but isn’t an asshole just has a different personality type. It’s true that many men act like assholes just to get laid, but the world is full of genuine assholes as well, and those men are just as real as the non-assholes. Don’t believe pretty lies (i.e. emotional sophistry) claiming that only insecure, weak, etc. men are assholes. It’s a function of personality type and confidence. A confident ISFP probably won’t be much of an asshole, but a confident ENTJ will.

Teasing falls under negs, if you properly understand what that term means. Unfortunately, many people equate negging, with insulting. An insult is not a neg, and even the dark gamesmen don’t advise insulting girls.

I’m lucky that teasing has always come naturally to me.

Negs are important in the initial stages because nearly all women have a vastly inflated sense of their own sexual market value.

108spirits

@Susan

I am genuinely interested to know how she was flakey. Can you lay it out for us?

Let me clarify up front that she wasn’t necessarily flakey, but from the guy’s perspective, without knowing what she was really up to and with previous experiences with actual flakey girls, she could appear flakey like the many he has likely run into. This is why he switched from seemingly normal dating behaviours to using some kind of Game (albeit clumsily).

My comments with the # in front.

So, I met this guy at a bar a few weeks ago…he ends up buying me a drink and asking for my phone number before leaving. The following week he texts me a few times to see “what’s up,” but each time I either had other plans or was not interested in going out to the bar.

# First and main sign of flakiness:
# Typically when a guy meets a girl and gets her number, he’d do the same as
# this bloke. And most of the time, he’d get this flakey response: “oh I have
# other plans” or “I don’t want to go to blah”.
# What she failed to do here, if she wanted to appear genuine instead of being
# like a typical game-playing girl, is to make him a counter-offer. “I already
# have plans on such & such nights, but how’s Thursday night at 7pm?”
# As taught the Game community, the lack of a counter-offer signals flakiness
# aka low interest level and tells the guy to ramp up the Game. Except that
# this bloke’s Game is terrible so you got the mess that followed.

Then, Wednesday night he texts me and says plainly “I’m taking you out on Saturday, don’t make any plans.” I agree not to.

# This is the point where I reckon he consulted the Game community, and was
# told to just make a statement telling her about the plan, leaving no room for
# flakiness. Basically forcing a black or white response from her.

The rest of it is him trying to turn an already planned date into an action date, probably because he’s told by other Community guys that a dinner date that early is bad for business (which is true).

He appeared to be all over the place, starting with the Friday night because she said she’s out “with a friend”. Now if he’s already paranoid about her being flakey, he probably thought “a friend” is a competitor (again, previous experiences likely taught him so). Then it all went down hill from there.

So it all started with that lack of counter-offer. This is a point that I believe you should stress with your girls. A guy who wants to date you seriously will look for signs that you are also serious about it after you give him your number. Turning down lots of date offers without any counter-offer at all will tell him that you’re picking & choosing dates for your own amusement and aren’t really interested in getting to know him. Additionally, it does reveal the priority of dating & relationship on your list. At which point, you’d either get a desperate beta hounding you for dates, or if you’re dealing with someone with Game, you’ve just got put in the Casual Dating (i.e pump & dump) basket, or he’ll just stop calling if he has other options (and you’ll be wondering why he isn’t calling anymore). Now if that’s not your attention, you’ll need to be more aware of what you’re doing and the message you’re sending out.

It’s like a partner dance. The guy may initiate and lead, but you’ll have to give him something to lead, else you’re not playing your part as a follower. It’s not a feminist 50/50 split down the middle equality, but you have your part to play in the dance too, and it’s more than just showing up when it’s convenient for you.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@108spirits

So it all started with that lack of counter-offer. This is a point that I believe you should stress with your girls. A guy who wants to date you seriously will look for signs that you are also serious about it after you give him your number. Turning down lots of date offers without any counter-offer at all will tell him that you’re picking & choosing dates for your own amusement and aren’t really interested in getting to know him.

Good suggestion, I totally agree with this. In fact, women who like a guy and don’t counter-offer run the risk of sending a “not interested” message. And “Rain check?” is not specific enough – a woman should ask if another night would work, or suggest other times when she is available, leaving no doubt in the guys’ mind.

In this case, I thought it was more understandable because it wasn’t a guy she knew, they’d met in a bar. I don’t know about her, but a lot of women think there’s a good chance a guy in a bar is going after no-strings sex, so they want to test his level of interest before actually meeting up. Of course, he could send texts every day with very little effort and it wouldn’t mean a thing, but it doesn’t take much for a woman to think a guy is trying hard if she likes him. If she doesn’t like him, the same behaviors will be described as stalking.

OffTheCuff

Teasing falls under negs, if you properly understand what that term means. Unfortunately, many people equate negging, with insulting.

Thanks, VI – this is exactly what I was trying to say in my first post.

No one is putting down beta males here, that sounds self-pitying. I’m drawing a distinction between Dark Game and Light Game, Sith and Jedi.

I think he’s was being sarcastic here. But it brings up a question:

Dark Game or Light Game, my view and advice to guys is pick what you want, and choose the game to get it. Inform the guys what they’re gonna get long-term if they go with dark game, as there are undesired consequences. Obviously I’m in the Light Game camp for myself, but I have really no bones against dark gamers, if we’re going to call guys like collegeslacker that.

Here’s what I don’t get – if we’re going to get *judgmental* on dark gamers (asking them “how can they look at themselves in the morning” is very much that), then shouldn’t we get judgmental on the sluts, too?

Yohami: no, I’m male.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@OffTheCuff

Here’s what I don’t get – if we’re going to get *judgmental* on dark gamers (asking them “how can they look at themselves in the morning” is very much that), then shouldn’t we get judgmental on the sluts, too?

I’m regularly accused of being judgmental of sluts. However, I would say that the question is – are you hurting anyone other than yourself? I’ve argued that sluts hurt all women in the smp, but that’s rather abstract. Most guys here say, “By all means, be a slut! I love meeting women like you!”

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Yohami: no, I’m male.

Aight, note saved

What is “Dark Game”? I thought it was about messing with the girls mind and emotional state via manipulation, in order to render her stupid, clingy and submissive and abuse her without resistance?

If so its not the same as a female slut, but more of a drama queen

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

If so its not the same as a female slut, but more of a drama queen

Yeah, this is closer. Basically a manipulative bitch who makes you miserable and enjoys her power over you. Both sexes are equally capable.

VI

Yes, this is the common justification for acting like an asshole. I disagree that this is true of “most girls.” But what of the “collateral damage” you cause when you run asshole game on a nice girl? You both lose. Your asshole behavior hurts her, and you also lose out on exactly the kind of girl you’re always complaining there aren’t enough of.

Let’s say the two things a man values in the SMP are good girls and sex. He finds that he gets the most sex when he acts like an asshole, but he loses good girls this way. When he’s nice, he gets very little sex, but good girls like him.
He wants to maximize NPV. We need to know the relative value of good girls vs. sex, and the proportion of good girls vs. girls who bang him when he’s an asshole. I would argue that a man in the current SMP is just maximizing value by being an asshole.

Of course, this is an oversimplification. Most good girls can still be won over after an initial asshole impression. So a man who can figure out the good girls will maximize value when he approaches the SMP as if all women are bitches. When a girl proves to him that she deserves to be treated better, he adjusts his behavior.

Jimmy Hendricks

Susan, this post shows another way girls who aren’t relationship quality (includes more than just the hardcore sluts) indirectly hurt their good girl counterparts.
.
With my numbers above, roughly 80% of attractive college girls are either actively looking for asshole behavior, or will take an ongoing hookup with an asshole over an LTR with a nicer guy.
.
It becomes even more difficult for a good guy when you consider the following: Of the 20% that are “good girls”, a good portion are already in relationships. Adding to that, many of the girls in the 80% (girls who most guys don’t want to seriously date) try to give the appearance of being good girls themselves. I can’t begin to say how many times I’ve seen good guys try to genuinely date a girl by the rules (taking her on dates, waiting for sex, etc.), only to later find out she was hooking up with some frat star/athlete/musician the whole time.
.
When the population is as polluted as it is in college today (I really can’t stress this enough), guys realize that asshole behavior is simply playing probability in his favor. It sucks for the genuinely good girls who want to reward genuinely good behavior, but they’re so few and far between that guys are wasting their time trying to find that needle in a haystack.

Jimmy Hendricks

Most good girls can still be won over after an initial asshole impression. So a man who can figure out the good girls will maximize value when he approaches the SMP as if all women are bitches. When a girl proves to him that she deserves to be treated better, he adjusts his behavior.

.
In my opinion, a the smartest mindset a guy in college can take regarding girls is: “Slutty until proven innocent.”

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

In my opinion, a the smartest mindset a guy in college can take regarding girls is: “Slutty until proven innocent.”

I think this is prudent behavior on the part of a male. It’s the male version of “just looking for sex until proven otherwise.” Both sexes need to see evidence of good character before becoming invested – men emotionally and women physically.

However, being guarded as a male, even withholding positive feedback or intimacy until this hurdle has been cleared is very different than running asshole game, where the woman is actually actively punished for being a slut. A woman who doesn’t have a bitch shield up is not going to take kindly to negs about her ugly shoes, she’s just going to think you are unpleasant. It’s like using an uzi to kill a mouse.

Chico

I think he’s was being sarcastic here.

Indeed I was. I’m not sure how that was missed.

Re: Dark/light game: What’s wrong with dark gaming the girls who deserve it and light gaming the ones who deserve it?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

What’s wrong with dark gaming the girls who deserve it and light gaming the ones who deserve it?

Because you need one or the other right out of the gate, before you even know a woman. There is no way to calibrate correctly, you’ve just got to gamble. There are some rules of thumb, no doubt, depending on venue, friend groups, etc.

http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ The Private Man

So it all started with that lack of counter-offer. This is a point that I believe you should stress with your girls. A guy who wants to date you seriously will look for signs that you are also serious about it after you give him your number. Turning down lots of date offers without any counter-offer at all will tell him that you’re picking & choosing dates for your own amusement and aren’t really interested in getting to know him.

This applies to all ages. I have a rule of thumb regarding the counter offer: no counter, no interest, move on.

Flaky behavior is simply camouflage for lack of interest.

Stephenie Rowling

When a girl proves to him that she deserves to be treated better, he adjusts his behavior.

Can he? I already mentioned that men are more static and stable than women. Once a guy has a winning strategy he rarely ever considers a plan B, is more likely that he consider the girl a bitch and moves on to an easier target than he saying. “Finally I found the needle on the haysack!” and goes for it. Again IME I had been chased by a couple of guys that when I didn’t found funny their assholes behavior, became angrier and even more assholic, no less. A guy that is seriously looking for the Holy Grail most train himself to recognize it in sight, if not he will end up like Percival, not asking the right question and losing it,

It becomes even more difficult for a good guy when you consider the following: Of the 20% that are “good girls”, a good portion are already in relationships. Adding to that, many of the girls in the 80% (girls who most guys don’t want to seriously date) try to give the appearance of being good girls themselves. I can’t begin to say how many times I’ve seen good guys try to genuinely date a girl by the rules (taking her on dates, waiting for sex, etc.), only to later find out she was hooking up with some frat star/athlete/musician the whole time.

I must agree with that, few guys can remember the maxim of judging a person by her own merits, after a while, they rather take the easy route and consider all women sluts till proven differently. But I must say that it doesn’t have to be 80% of them. A guy with enough bad taste (he only like the hot bad type girl) only need three of them fail or he only needs to be betrayed by one that he though was the best of them all, for him to get all women into the same category. That is part of the reason Dark Gamers don’t think on settling down and having a family, they lost all hope that there is such a thing as a good woman.

Sure, but they need to lose 100+ pounds.

You know that there are women that are unattractive regardless of if their are fat or not, some women didn’t got lucky on the looks department and many others had no one to tell them how to look better for a man, so they keep cutting their hair, wearing unflattering clothes… so men keep ignoring then.

ExNewYorker

However, being guarded as a male, even withholding positive feedback or intimacy until this hurdle has been cleared is very different than running asshole game

.
Your average guy, unless he’s deeply religious, isn’t going to “withhold” intimacy. What he might do is to calibrate his “emotional” investment to the required circumstances. A hookup in the bathroom stall is likely going to mean different levels of emotional investment than being made to wait a little with a monogamy clause (I think Badger advised a while back that NSBM, No Sex Before Monogamy, was a decent strategy these days). The line between an asshole and a prudent man can be pretty gray this day and age.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The line between an asshole and a prudent man can be pretty gray this day and age.

That’s true. Another bewildering thing about the SMP.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

NSBM, No Sex Before Monogamy

Thats a fine strategy as long as she´s not having sex with other people and she´s not a former slut. Her intimacy can have the ultimate price if she wants, as long as her same intimacy is not being offered elsewhere for two cents

http://collegeslacker.wordpress.com collegeslacker

@SW

Once again, you’re confusing what a neg is.

I tease all girls all the time, bad girls and nice girls, for the goofy shoes they wear, and they eat it up. This includes any article of clothing they are wearing. If some dude is like “god those are ugly shoes” or “you look awful in those shoes”, thats hardly a neg. A neg, as I use it, would be “those are some…interesting shoes”, with a cocked eyebrow and a smirk. It comes off well every time. That’s a neg.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@collegeslacker
I do know what a neg is. The example I was thinking of was one I heard recently:

“Hey, i like your outfit! Well, except for the shoes.” *smirk*

I think that’s lame. I’ll allow that college girls might see it as alpha. Or there was the one where Mystery used to tell girls they were so cute, they looked like Elmer Fudd! HAHAHAHAHAHA that’s hilarious!

I think playful teasing is fine if it doesn’t cross over into insults. For example, if a girl is wearing Chuck Taylor’s, a guy might tease her about it. “Ha, no high heels for you? Are you a tomboy?”

Or nicknaming a girl Bangs, which Riv did recently. That’s cute, even though bangs are not his favorite.

Ok then, just wanted to make sure because I believed you were misrepresenting the neg by saying it wouldn’t work on a girl without a bitch shield up. But, neg=edgy teasing, not insulting, and it works on every girl.

Höllenhund

Which chicks like assholes?

1. Naive women.
2. Stupid women.
3. Weak women.
4. Asshole women.

In other words, 99,9% of all women.

VI

Can he? I already mentioned that men are more static and stable than women. Once a guy has a winning strategy he rarely ever considers a plan B, is more likely that he consider the girl a bitch and moves on to an easier target…

IME, he can. He may not want to. In that case, he’s not open to the idea of a serious relationship.

DF

Mrs. Walsh

You don’t get to tell men what works and what doesn’t with game. They’re the ones running it, learning it, refining it. They know the rough statistical numbers well and better than you do by implication of them running game. Dark and Light game are just platonic categories you made up, most men don’t see it like that. It’s more a tool kit, different tools for different women. Go easy on some, go hard on others.
.
As with roissy, we can debate his morality, for sure, but I respect his intelligence and perceptiveness. He has a system that most men can understand and relate to. The fact of the matter is, he receives hundreds of letters a day from men, thanking him for saving their marriage. You don’t have a system, its been how many posts, and your still not getting negging and its applications, in addition to what an asshole is.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@DF

You don’t get to tell men what works and what doesn’t with game. They’re the ones running it, learning it, refining it. They know the rough statistical numbers well and better than you do by implication of them running game.

You don’t get to tell me what women want or how we think. Mystery discovered through 10 years of observation and experimentation the knowledge that I was born with. An honest woman knows exactly what works and what doesn’t, more than you will ever learn in your limited excursions into the female psyche. So bumble along, by all means, file your field reports among the men of your acquaintance. You will undoubtedly have some successes, and I hope that you will not compromise your integrity or your humanity in the process.

Dark and Light game are just platonic categories you made up, most men don’t see it like that.

No I did not make them up. Many males in the blogosphere have acknowledged and addressed these labels. However, the labels are meaningless. There is right and there is wrong. There is ethical and there is unethical. The power to deliver pleasure and inspire loyalty, vs. the power to maim and destroy. Game gives you that power, how you use it is up to you.

The fact of the matter is, he receives hundreds of letters a day from men, thanking him for saving their marriage.

This is laughable. I daresay Roissy hasn’t received a single letter in this vein, since he is strongly opposed to marriage. He has also advocated physical violence and abuse, extreme sadism, and degradation of women. Roissy does offer many brilliant insights into female sexuality, it’s true, but he would use those insights to harm women. To Roissy mating is a zero sum game – always one winner and one loser. His job is to make sure the male wins.

You don’t have a system, its been how many posts, and your still not getting negging and its applications, in addition to what an asshole is.

How many posts? Nearly 500. And 40,000 comments. I can hold my own with Roissy any day of the week, thanks for asking. I have a perfect understanding of negging, I’m sure I’ve read more than you have about the topic. You can window dress it all you want, you can claim, as many men do, that negging is necessary to “put women in their place.” The word itself says exactly what it is. Why would you employ any strategy where the energy is all negative – where the goal is to subtract rather than add? It’s a cheater’s shortcut. It gives you an in by making a woman feel vulnerable, not because you are anything special, not because you are desirable, but because you have found a way to make her feel unattractive and unworthy.

A woman who is not naive, stupid, weak or an asshole herself knows when a man is teasing with affection to get to know her better, and when he is using a device to humiliate her. A quality woman worthy of an LTR or marriage will disrespect a man who does the latter. Club sluts will, however, be eating out of your hand, it’s true.

As for assholes, I know one when I see one. I think you fit the bill. Don’t come back, pup, until you’ve learned some respect.

modernguy

In the context of the pickup there is no dark game or light game, there is only what works or doesn’t work. If a jaded bitch needs to be manipulated hard to think she has a super alpha on her hands that she can finally submit to then that’s what works. If the same thing works on a nice girl and she gets ripped up in the process then too bad – she made the cardinal sin of ignoring that thing in men that women all too often forget about but is really the most important thing – character. It’s not the man’s responsibility to teach her the kinds of life lessons she should know. There isn’t much pity going around for men who pine after beautiful but vapid and shallow cunts, that’s their lesson to learn as well. Nobody tells those women to stop using orbiters to boost their egos, they tell the men to man up or get game. You can’t be a child forever.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@modernguy

In the context of the pickup there is no dark game or light game, there is only what works or doesn’t work.

That is a very frightening view of human nature. Many atrocities throughout history have “worked” to accomplish evil objectives, I need not name them here.

If the same thing works on a nice girl and she gets ripped up in the process then too bad – she made the cardinal sin of ignoring that thing in men that women all too often forget about but is really the most important thing – character.

Wow. An open admission that you have no qualms of conscience if you “rip up” a nice girl. Handy argument there that if asshole Game works on a girl, she’s to blame for falling for it. In this way, you can justify any level of manipulation on another person.

Did you watch the video at the end? That novel was written in the 18th c. Cads are immoral because they excel at pretending to be something they are not, taking advantage of a woman’s naivete, vulnerability, emotional needs and ability to trust. Women were not born with cad radar – we generally need evidence of poor character to detect it.

Jimmy Hendricks

A woman who is not naive, stupid, weak or an asshole herself knows when a man is teasing with affection to get to know her better, and when he is using a device to humiliate her. A quality woman worthy of an LTR or marriage will disrespect a man who does the latter. Club sluts will, however, be eating out of your hand, it’s true.

Susan, I hate to keep hammering this point home, but in my experience less than 20% of attractive college aged girls fall into the category of not naive, stupid, weak, or assholes themselves. Most have that club slut mindset.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jimmy Hendricks
I understand that you feel strongly about your estimates, and other men here have certainly seconded them. I don’t find them credible, though they may reflect your personal experience. In fact, I believe that only a minority of women in college is even sexually active, and at least 75% have never had sex outside a relationship. I will be commenting more about this shortly.

Höllenhund

Mystery discovered through 10 years of observation and experimentation the knowledge that I was born with. An honest woman knows exactly what works and what doesn’t, more than you will ever learn in your limited excursions into the female psyche.

Well, Ms. Walsh, didn’t you say women don’t understand their own hypergamy? You also admitted you weren’t truly aware of the reality of the current SMP until recently. How often do you see women giving useful sex and relationship advice to sexually unsuccessful men?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Hollenhund
It’s true that women often lack understanding of their own attraction triggers, or at least cloud that understanding through hamsterwheeling. It’s often a matter of semantics. The same woman who denies she likes jerks will readily admit she likes extremely dominant men, or even dominant men whom others don’t “understand.” The rationalization kicks in when we portray this preference as evidence of poor character, or suggest that her failure to find a partner may be a direct result of her choices. The impulse control question is related but not the same thing.

The concept of hypergamy is fairly obvious to observe, even in ourselves. What I failed to fully comprehend until recently was the post Sex Rev effect of unleashed female sexuality on hypergamy. That is, the extent to which many males are overlooked by their equals in this SMP.

How often do you see women giving useful sex and relationship advice to sexually unsuccessful men?

Not too often. In fact, I certainly don’t claim to do that here. Perhaps DF would like to contact Customer Service for a full refund

I wrote this post to alert women to a device that assholes use as a shortcut to dominance – an insidious targeting of a woman’s emotional vulnerability. Whether a woman “deserves” this treatment is not for the asshole to say. Let him admit that his tactics are shitty but effective in getting him sex. Why should he be allowed to run free on the hamster wheel?

For the record, I am not talking about all negs here – we all know that playful teasing and witty banter = flirting, and no one wants that to go away. I am specifically talking about crossing a line where the objective is to make a woman feel badly or doubt her worth. A personal story:

Before I had braces on my bottom teeth (in my 30s) a young guy introduced himself to me at a party. He was cute, we were flirting for a while. This was way before Game was around – the guy was a natural. At one point he jokingly said, “hey you’ve got crooked bottom teeth, have you ever thought about getting them fixed?” I was very taken aback, I felt suddenly self-conscious. He laughed and said, “Don’t worry, it’s cute, it gives your face character.” He proceeded to flirt with great confidence and asked me for my number. I declined. I wasn’t angry, and I did think he was very attractive, but alarm bells went off in my head. He had injured me in some small way in our very first conversation. I knew that nothing good could come from seeing him again.

Höllenhund

In the context of the pickup there is no dark game or light game, there is only what works or doesn’t work.

Good point. The current SMP isn’t exactly a place where ethics matter.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The current SMP isn’t exactly a place where ethics matter.

You guys are depressing the hell out of me.

anon

I can smell an asshole from across the room, and despite other people’s insistence that he is a nice guy or good friend to everyone etc, i KNOW he is an asshole. It’s the way he carries himself or the way he looks, I can always tell! I’d like to tell all the women here that Good Friend does not equal to Good Relationship Partner. An asshole can be the most filial son to his parents, but he is not a good boyfriend/husband.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@anon

An asshole can be the most filial son to his parents, but he is not a good boyfriend/husband.

Amen. He can also be a good buddy to his guy friends, and sometimes even his platonic girl friends, if they’re capable of enormous cognitive dissonance.

OffTheCuff

I am specifically talking about crossing a line where the objective is to make a woman feel badly or doubt her worth.

As if men never have women make us feel bad or doubt our worth?

Guys are injured in similarly through dishonest rejection (LJBF), pyrotechnic rejection, public shaming (“look at this creep!”), and shit-tests. The guy who failed your teen shit test was likely emotionally decimated for years, unable to show any vulnerability to a female. If we want to accept shit-tests of deception are “biological” and “can be fun” (SayWhaat’s words) then negs at self-esteem are fair game, no?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Are negs biological? I don’t think so. From an evo psych standpoint, a woman would be foolish to spend time on any man who opted not to display, but to repel.

Negs are a way to repel the female to make her feel rejected. The notion that she will then try harder to qualify herself is based on the idea that asshole behavior is a proxy for status, i.e. why would a guy be so rude unless he has lots of options? In fact, a man with lots of options is a poor bet as a reliable provider, as he is likely to impregnate many women and share his resources among them.

This is why women have different strategies for short- and long-term mating. Negs are effective in short-term mating, when a woman is primarily interested in bedding a high status male with no real expectation of long-term investment.

When a woman deploys a long-term mating strategy, i.e. the search for a life partner, the neg is a tipoff that the man is unlikely to cherish her, as he is immune enough to her charms to find fault with her from the start.

The unhappy 30-something spinster is usually a woman who has consciously or unconsciously employed short-term strategies for 10-15 years, with no long-term results to show for it.

For the record, I reject the argument of collective guilt for women. On another blog someone stated that a particularly dick move by a guy was justifiable because “think of all the women who have been total bitches to men throughout history.” That standard does not pass the sniff test, I hope you will agree. When you punish a woman for the shit test I pulled at 14, you are seriously off track morally, IMO.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Are negs biological? I don’t think so. From an evo psych standpoint, a woman would be foolish to spend time on any man who opted not to display, but to repel.

Yes. The demeaning person is above of you in the social ladder. The pleasing person is under you. There are exceptions (love friendship good character parenting) but thats a biological wiring.

People take advantage of the pleasing persons and respect the demeaning ones. If you want to be pleasing (nice, provider, kind, generous) and still be respected, then you have to really, really work on how to set boundaries so nobody confuses your good spirit with being easy to prey.

Think of your own history and when you encountered people in positions of power / people that inspired authority. I bet you 10 bucks all of them had something demeaning and imposing at plain sight (heh!) and if they opened and warmed up it happened after you had submitted to them. And their kindness was more valuable to you that the kindness of people that was kind by default.

Its biological wiring. And women are sexually attracted to men in charge. Two plus two = women like assholes just because.

Being mean is a cheap way to get women.

And it does come with a social proof. In order to be mean and stand out you need to be stronger than other men that would kick your ass for being mean.

Being a kind asshole, now thats a serious deal – me, inflating my ego again

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

kind = sheep, mean = wolf

You would say “the sheep is so kind we should all learn from her, the wolf is mean mean mean!”

But the sheep also kind enough to provide its own flesh and fur, and we forget to thank them when we ate them in a soup.

Thats what happens with nice guys. They get to be the example for good character but get eaten. Mean men get talked down but collect everything.

OffTheCuff

I don’t believe in collective guilt either, heck, as a white dude, I get *FAR* more of that than you ever will. My point here isn’t to guilt you out of that, you know I respect you for owning up to it… something view women can or will ever do.

I’m just bringing up a debate point here, and don’t have an answer — is it fair to make the other person “feel bad” as part of the mating dance, if it gets results? Some women (I’m including other women who say shit tests are “fun”) seem to be arguing: shit tests are biological and unconscious, so it is; hard negs are intentional, so they are not.

Negs are a way to repel the female to make her feel rejected. The notion that she will then try harder to qualify herself is based on the idea that asshole behavior is a proxy for status, i.e. why would a guy be so rude unless he has lots of options? In fact, a man with lots of options is a poor bet as a reliable provider, as he is likely to impregnate many women and share his resources among them.

I will again argue against the idea that negs are meant to make women feel bad. The absolute core of negs, to me, is to demonstrate that you are not *afraid* to lose her, that you’re not a suck-up. Both CS and VI have agreed with me here (I think) that a neg is not an insult. I guess an insult might qualify as one, but it seems crude to me.

What you are describing sounds more like a bad push-pull, or getting your DHV’s screwed up. A good DHV is elevating yourself, not pushing her down so you appear higher.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@OffTheCuff

What you are describing sounds more like a bad push-pull, or getting your DHV’s screwed up. A good DHV is elevating yourself, not pushing her down so you appear higher.

This statement brings us into total agreement. I’m not surprised, frankly, because I know you well enough here to feel sure that you would never make a practice of strategically insulting women.

I think we’ve been having a sort of semantic debate. Part of that is the way the neg is often misused in Game. I never had a problem with any of Mystery’s negs, even tho some of them sound pretty lame to me. Telling a woman she looks like Bugs Bunny isn’t going to send her to the nearest mirror searching for whiskers and a twitchy nose.

But there is enormous potential to abuse the concept, and I’ve heard many examples.
“Hmmm, you sure you wanna eat that?”
“I think you have something in your teeth, or maybe that’s just the way your teeth look.”
“Didn’t you ask your roommates about your hair before you came out?”

In these cases, the women said, WTF, get outta here. Negging done well, and playfully, can increase attraction and sexual tension. Done poorly, it can do exactly the opposite. We used to call it “kidding on the square” – laughing while saying something that is really not very nice at all. BTW, women do this quite a bit to each other, and it’s considered a total bitch move. It’s what frenemies do.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

OffTheCuff, agreed

The neg is a way of displaying lack of fear and lack of neediness. When there is humor on it, theres a mean push on the other person´s value, theres a joke at their expense. And humor is valuable too. So neg is a display of power without causing damaging insult.

Abusers just push insult people and put them down, without humor or empathy. I wouldnt call that negs / teasings but they work the same – scratch that. Insulting works more, I just cant handle being an abuser myself.

Every time Im in a social group and a really mean guy does something really mean, I can see all the girl´s pupils dilatating. I have questioned them about it and they deny it, though, but its pretty obvious. Even the girls that get all grossed and insulted by the guys behavior go talk to the guy and surround him later on. So deny it all you want, there´s a reason being a dick works, and a reason such behavior is called being a “dick”. Women like dicks.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

So deny it all you want, there´s a reason being a dick works, and a reason such behavior is called being a “dick”. Women like dicks.

I’ve never denied it. I’ve qualified that statement to address what a dick is, and which women like them most. The men here seem to be under the impression that I am trying to shame them into not using negs. Not so. I am merely informing women that a man who acts like an asshole is poor relationship material. Since most assholes don’t want relationships, I don’t see a problem. The difficulty comes when good men who are relationship material act like assholes to get an asshole-dependent girl – now they’re stuck in the dick role and they’ve got a real bitch or head case to contend with. But that is something those men will have to learn, just as women have to learn how to select for character if they’re thinking LTR.

anon

Hi Sue, I’ve known several “nice guys” who’re nice to every single person except the women they’re dating. Why is this so?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@anon
Because nice guys ignore the girls they like.

Stephenie Rowling

“He can also be a good buddy to his guy friends, and sometimes even his platonic girl friends, if they’re capable of enormous cognitive dissonance.”

My life stories all my player friends were horrible to the women they were banging, but treated me like a princess.

“People take advantage of the pleasing persons and respect the demeaning ones. If you want to be pleasing (nice, provider, kind, generous) and still be respected, then you have to really, really work on how to set boundaries so nobody confuses your good spirit with being easy to prey.”

True, but then is not better to know which people are really there for you? We got a saying that you know your true friends on jail or in your deathbed. I’m easy going and nice and some people had confused that with lack of character, those people are not my friends anymore, but the ones that cherish my good behavior, and they had been with me for better or worse. I don’t need to go to jail or die to find that out so I personally believe is better to be nice and see what happens, YMMV.

Dudemanbro

@Susan

I believe that only a minority of women in college is even sexually active, and at least 75% have never had sex outside a relationship

When I was in college not too long ago, I knew a good few guys this “minority” of girls were fucking. Quoted that word because it was definitely not a minority if what I saw was any indication. On most campuses there are more girls than guys, so I would say that a large number of girls ARE hooking up outside of relationships in college, and I have seen it up close. And the pervasiveness of hookup culture in college would be your reason for starting this blog, right?

Nobody here is trying to shame women, but a lot of guys do know the score (because we’ve lived it in the current SMP) and too many talking heads in the media have spouted the “purity and innocence” party line for it to be believed anymore. I appreciate that as a woman you keep it real and deliver the truth because most don’t, but be careful to stay realistic.

OffTheCuff

I’ve known several “nice guys” who’re nice to every single person except the women they’re dating. Why is this so?

Very elementary question, so, welcome to HUS. The answer maybe difficult to accept.

Being nice as a dating strategy, repels women sexually. If he was nice to them, he wouldn’t be dating at all.

The term “nice” is a bit vague here, without some example. We’ve written a lot on the Nice strategy and why it fails so badly, and how women and men both have very different views of what “nice” means.

http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

Susan, the “deny all you want” wasnt pointed at you, just a generic statement

If we want to accept shit-tests of deception are “biological” and “can be fun” (SayWhaat’s words)

I never said shit-tests of deception were fun. My point was that lighthearted shit tests (i.e. playful banter) were fun, similar to your point that lighthearted negs (also playful banter) were fun.

OTC, this is the second time you have put words in my mouth and brought up my name in a debate where I was inactive. I am kindly asking you to stop.

OffTheCuff

Wasn’t meaning to pick on you, SayWhaat, I was trying to not stuff words in Susan’s mouth, otherwise the “fun” would look like I was quoting her. They were your words, though, even if the context wasn’t totally correct. So, to prevent further misunderstanding, tell me what a non-deceptive, “fun” shit-test is… you know, just jog my memory here?

SayWhaat

you know, just jog my memory here?

Sure.

My point was that lighthearted shit tests (i.e. playful banter) were fun

In reality, very few decent guys are not going to know how to deal with such “fun”. Natural alphas and guys with game, and that’s about it. Most guys will think you’re just weird at best, a bitch at worst, unless you are obvious, *guy-obvious* that you are fooling around. I say guy-obvious because obvious for women is usually “extremely subtle” for men. So to be guy-obvious, you have to telegraph what you are doing in a way such that a brain-damaged dog could understand.

Then again, it wouldn’t be a shit test (IMO) if you’re being totally obvious. It’s just banter, not a test.

SayWhaat

Fake boyfriend ended a while ago, no need to rehash that drama. And whether or not a lighthearted shit test is really just banter is simply a difference of opinion.

http://funandsocial.blogspot.com Nutz

“So negs are only to be deployed on narcissistic women? If you’ve just met a woman, and she’s giving off a friendly, earnest vibe, you won’t neg her? Or do you neg just in case she’s a narcissist and you don’t yet have enough info to know?”

Short version: Negs fall under the umbrella of breaking rapport, which goes by another name: Flirting.

Long version: Negs are just a useful tool to flirt with the women who think highly of themselves. This type of flirting is meant to subcommunicate her looks or whatever doesn’t phase you in the slightest as only an unaffected guy would dare toss out those kinds of statements without even thinking about it else they’d risk insulting/losing the girl.

You know you’ve done it correctly when a woman blurts out “I can’t believe you just said that”, playfully punches your arm or calls you an asshole, or anything else along those lines. Clearly they should be reacting in a positive manner because, finally, they met a guy that’s fun and gets how to talk their language.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Nutz

That’s true in theory, but as someone said in another thread recently, a large percentage of negs go like this:

“Wow, you’re wearing horizontal stripes. Do you think you have the body for that?”