Quote: Here is what I mean by many Olympic competitors already had the training plus these incredible other skills, Olympic training.

And the modern day equivilant would be?? (Meaning someone competing at high/Olympic level WTF today).. perhaps a national team member like Steven Lopez.. has he got 18 years combative experince to work against any habits formed from concentrating on a certain type of training!

Quote:This man was the Korean national champ between 1965 and 1968 and a U.S. combative instructor for 18 years. He was a combative instructor befor he was champ. He did not just train for competition like soooo many others do not just train for competition. The competition is only one component of training.

Quote:Theres a few flaws in that type of training.. firstly the attacker has full knowledge what the defender is trying to achieve - anyone with a little knowledge of throws can stop the average student throwing them even without punching, secondly the defender is limited to only being allowed to throw.. i bet if you evened up the odds and said botyh can punch & throw.. people will topple!No offence meant, I just felt its a bad example of reacting under pressure when the rules are stil stacked in one persons favour and hence doesnt prove what its meant to.Stuart

No offence taken. What i was trying to do was get a point across that drills, like throwing have limitations. They may be a fine way to help one understand technique, but a drill can also be counter productive, as they can lead to a false sense of security & like you say, they do what they train. I was trying to get students to realize going through the motions is just not enough. As stated, once I removed the restrictions, some were able to get their opponents to the floor, I think as a result of other training, not just a throwing drill.

quoteNo.. I know WTF schools that vary their syllabus.. so do not assume that, the post was in reference to the benefits that WTF sport sparring can provide.. I simply agreed and have pointed out some negatives that it may also provide. The post talked of superfast and powerful kicks gained from Olympic type training to a reasonibly high level, therefore it stands to reason most of the training time is devoted to this.. which includes ingraining the bad habits I have pointed out. end quote

I guess if you want to call super fast powerful kicks that these people could pull off before 99% of the average bullies could punch them, not to mention all their other training, is bad habit you are right. No hard feelings we simply view a few things from competing views.

It's supposed to be a fight between two Wing Chun masters. I don't see much Wing Chun going on. ;-)

The previous example was meant to be semi-facetious, but I did actually have a serious point. The point was that I think you may be overestimating how much people's training will dictate their responses during a real SD situation.

To an extent, I would agree w/you in that if you are in a SD situation, there is strong likelihood that habits and muscle memory formed in practice will carry over. Having said that, I will also couch this by saying that from my observations, most untrained people's instincts, when pressed to fight, will be to 1) flail and swing wildly with their hands, and or 2) grab, tackle, or wrestle to the ground.

Ideally for the martial artist, training should slowly condition them away from wildly swinging/tackling, so that when pressed to fight, they will be able to respond more coherently. However, the "flight or fight" response will still kick in if you genuinely feel that you are threatened. Our natural inclination is to react with aggression, but the habits and muscle memories formed will channel that aggression into more effective techniques.

So what does this mean for the sport TKD fighter? Despite the popular misconception, sport TKD fighters will not immediately drop their hands at their side and start bouncing if they get attacked. I think that a sport TKD fighter will probably kick if he sees an opening, but given human instincts as I've stated, I think it far more likely that he would unleash a barrage of punches and elbows which come far more naturally than kicking. I also think he would probably work in some takedowns and ground and pound if afforded the opportunity. Which brings me back to my previous point. If that TKD athlete is fast, strong, and in good shape, I think those punches and elbows will wreak havoc on the attacker.

And the modern day equivilant would be?? (Meaning someone competing at high/Olympic level WTF today).. perhaps a national team member like Steven Lopez.. has he got 18 years combative experince to work against any habits formed from concentrating on a certain type of training!

I can't comment on Steven Lopez himself, but the dojang that his family runs does appear to include a healthy dose of SD in their regular TKD program:

According to these links, the SD class is taught by Chris Martinez, who is an top level TKD athlete and currently a contender for the US Olympic team to Beijing. Additionally, their website says that the adult TKD class is primarily geared towards conditioning and SD.

This school is also responsible for producing most of the medals that the US has won in international WTF competition, including three World Champions, and a two-time Olympic gold medalist.

Yes this is all good information. I think we may be arguing absolutes, with a bit of my father is tougher than your father. I think & see from what has been posted here, that it is fairly obvious that if one trains in any Art, certain strengths are developed. I also think that it is obvious that all training methods have their limitations & shortfalls with their respective ways, including their tournament rules, if any. So if it is pure street SD that you want, it makes common sense to train at a center that emphasizes that & offers as realistic conditions as possible, because even then, there are limitations.

Then there seems to be a tendency to not refer to any possible shortcomings one's training may have & they all have it AND to highlight the shortcomings of another's training or group.

TKD & MAs can have the capacity to offer many benefits to its students, including making money, SD, sport, fitness, discipline, ettiquite & more. As long as an individual student is happy that they are having their needs met AND are aware of its limitations, then all is ok. TKD can offer so much more than SD. As aready stated, if it is street SD you need, seek a school that emphasizes that. Even McDojangs & McDoJos offer something benefical to some. However the vast amount of these types of schools that seem to prop up, does in fact have a part in portraying TKD's reputation. Therefore this & other reasons contribute to TKD loosing face.

Another point:I went to the Elite TKD website. Of course I was most intrested in the history section. If you check it out, it says TKD goes back 1,000+ years , that the K Taekwon-Do Assoc was formed in 1961, when that WAS the K Tae Soo Do Assoc. There were 2 K TKD Assocs before that! Then they go on to say that TKD was registered in 1962 when it was Tae Soo Do & that they held the 1st TKD championship in 1963, when it was, yes you figured it out, it was Tae Soo Do.These are the things that drive history buffs & ITF members crazy The KTA did not become TKD till 1965/6 when Ambassador Choi returned to Korea from his diplomatic assignment & was elected 3rd president & he fought tooth & nail to change it & he was successful. This is why he & many are adamant that they, he & his followers, basically OhDo Kwan, were doing TKD, as they had a different training & others were not. Readers should understand this.

Quote:Yes this is all good information. I think we may be arguing absolutes, with a bit of my father is tougher than your father. I think & see from what has been posted here, that it is fairly obvious that if one trains in any Art, certain strengths are developed. I also think that it is obvious that all training methods have their limitations & shortfalls with their respective ways, including their tournament rules, if any. So if it is pure street SD that you want, it makes common sense to train at a center that emphasizes that & offers as realistic conditions as possible, because even then, there are limitations.

Then there seems to be a tendency to not refer to any possible shortcomings one's training may have & they all have it AND to highlight the shortcomings of another's training or group.

TKD & MAs can have the capacity to offer many benefits to its students, including making money, SD, sport, fitness, discipline, ettiquite & more. As long as an individual student is happy that they are having their needs met AND are aware of its limitations, then all is ok. TKD can offer so much more than SD. As aready stated, if it is street SD you need, seek a school that emphasizes that. Even McDojangs & McDoJos offer something benefical to some. However the vast amount of these types of schools that seem to prop up, does in fact have a part in portraying TKD's reputation. Therefore this & other reasons contribute to TKD loosing face.

Another point:I went to the Elite TKD website. Of course I was most intrested in the history section. If you check it out, it says TKD goes back 1,000+ years , that the K Taekwon-Do Assoc was formed in 1961, when that WAS the K Tae Soo Do Assoc. There were 2 K TKD Assocs before that! Then they go on to say that TKD was registered in 1962 when it was Tae Soo Do & that they held the 1st TKD championship in 1963, when it was, yes you figured it out, it was Tae Soo Do.These are the things that drive history buffs & ITF members crazy The KTA did not become TKD till 1965/6 when Ambassador Choi returned to Korea from his diplomatic assignment & was elected 3rd president & he fought tooth & nail to change it & he was successful. This is why he & many are adamant that they, he & his followers, basically OhDo Kwan, were doing TKD, as they had a different training & others were not. Readers should understand this.

1) Ok, absolutely we are back to arguing absolutes. 2) I see severe short comings in both methods of training but the short comings are mainly limited to the sparing rules of both. I do not see many differences in the other aspects of training, they are pretty much the same for most of us from what people convey on this forum. Back to the sparing short comings, WTF lacks hands, ITF lacks commitment of power/ settled! Both are incomplete training methods by them selves.

Now to the, another point part to your post, I understand yours and others frustration with being taken seriously regarding history, I am incapable of feeling it as you do because it has not been ingrained into me or other WTF affiliated people as it has by your organization.Not saying that knowing history is not a good thing I personally find it very interesting but to most WTF affiliated organizations it is kind of a non factor. This must be very frustrating for you and I understand. I started TKD course that was ITF years ago and I still remember posters of the general hanging every where and even though I did not continue my training at this particular place I still remember the importance that was given to this man by the members of this place. I was not there long so I never really learned why, you have given me insight into this.

I am a little Leary to post this next part because I am worried as to how it will be interpreted in print. I assure you if we were sitting across one another you would be able to tell that I mean no disrespect and am genuinely curious.

What if history could be substantiated as you say it was and the world suddenly agrees that every thing the general and his members have been saying is absolutely correct, how would this change TKD as we know it? How would this help ITF? would this hurt WTF affiliates? Would it restore those that may have been hurt? and most important, would TKD be improved? and if so, how?

Quote:What if history could be substantiated as you say it was and the world suddenly agrees that every thing the general and his members have been saying is absolutely correct, how would this change TKD as we know it? How would this help ITF? would this hurt WTF affiliates? Would it restore those that may have been hurt? and most important, would TKD be improved? and if so, how?

No, please move away from that arguement, as this is not what is important. Now I will state that history has nothing or very, very little to do with what one does today with respect to their physical training. Now it can help a bit with respect to understanding where & how something can into being, so one can move forward, as is true with this topic. If TKD is losing face/popularity, one must understand history so we can track development in hopes of improving or adjusting in some way. period, end of story, not really important for physical training

Now why history is important:History is of course the recording of events, allowing a look back into times long gone. There may be some benefit to that & it has been done, this recording, since recorded history began

Now history in the short term is usually written by those in power. In this case the SK govt & its agencies. There are various reasons that contribute to why certain facts are downplayed, eliminated & others unduly highlighted. They do not only relate to discrediting Ambassador Choi. History usually sorts itself out over time. I think you & others will start to see that, as the geo-political clmate has changed in Korea. There are several projects in the works that will help this process along, including internet discussion forums such as this & the overall power & reach of the world wide web as a communication tool beyond control.

Why is this important?Simple answer. Many great men left a poor developing country & spread not only a MA, but the customs & culture of a proud country. They introduced Korea to the world, via their MA. To simply credit them with this the least we can & should do. Now couple with the fact, that this accurate potrayal of history will not only rightfully give credit where it is due, but will also help pay back the great harm caused to them over the years by a brutual dictatorial regime, that blacklisted communsit sympathizers & traitors.

No, please move away from that arguement, as this is not what is important. Now I will state that history has nothing or very, very little to do with what one does today with respect to their physical training. Now it can help a bit with respect to understanding where & how something can into being, so one can move forward, as is true with this topic. If TKD is losing face/popularity, one must understand history so we can track development in hopes of improving or adjusting in some way. period, end of story, not really important for physical training

Now why history is important:History is of course the recording of events, allowing a look back into times long gone. There may be some benefit to that & it has been done, this recording, since recorded history began

Now history in the short term is usually written by those in power. In this case the SK govt & its agencies. There are various reasons that contribute to why certain facts are downplayed, eliminated & others unduly highlighted. They do not only relate to discrediting Ambassador Choi. History usually sorts itself out over time. I think you & others will start to see that, as the geo-political clmate has changed in Korea. There are several projects in the works that will help this process along, including internet discussion forums such as this & the overall power & reach of the world wide web as a communication tool beyond control.

Why is this important?Simple answer. Many great men left a poor developing country & spread not only a MA, but the customs & culture of a proud country. They introduced Korea to the world, via their MA. To simply credit them with this the least we can & should do. Now couple with the fact, that this accurate potrayal of history will not only rightfully give credit where it is due, but will also help pay back the great harm caused to them over the years by a brutual dictatorial regime, that blacklisted communsit sympathizers & traitors.

(end quote)

Surely some where one wants history to be recorded accurately and as you said give credit to where credit is due. I am all for this. I still must ask the question as to where this is going to benefit us that are not yet a record of history? How is this going to benefit TKD and the various groups that make up TKD? could this harm some of these groups? How is this going to help TKD move forward? Will it vastly improve TKD"s popularity and how? If there is no answers to these questions than history is some what insignificant and I do not believe that you, or I, feel that way. I can not answer these questions because I lack historical knowledge but I am all for moving forward and improvement.

So where and how is acknowledging and/or rectifying this going to take us? How will it improve the various governing powers and organizations of TKD or is this a one sided mission to rectify a terrible wrong doing? I don"t care if it is the ladder, if it"s wrong it is wrong, and should be rectified, but I would like to know how this is going to benefit TKD as a whole.