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Training in any athletic endeavor when you are impaired/under the influence of any mind-altering substance is potentially dangerous not only to the person, but to anybody who trains with that person.

I can not think of any cogent reason why any dojo should allow a person to train in an altered state. I have even spoken to a student who had alcohol on his breath, despite acting entirely sober. As the owner of a dojo, I am ultimately responsible for the well-being of the students training there. Clean body, mind and uniforms are simply starting points to walk onto my mats!

True Story:

One of my sempai was going through a divorce and would smoke pot before training. Pot calms must people down. For him, it had a disinhibitory effect. The result was that he became an angry snap and people would get hurt (big strong person). This person needed to spoken to and told what was going on and that nobody really wanted to train with him anymore. This is a good person who was oblivious as to what was going on. He had no intent or desire to hurt anybody.

bottom line:

Train safe means NO MIND-ALTERING substances before training.

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,
Thought I would give a response here as I like what you've said and plus you might find it amusing coming from me.(first impressions and all that)

Three points. Firstly from the view of letting someone train who has been taking drugs. If the person thinks it will make their training go better then let me explain what will generally happen so that others may look out for the symptoms. If the person not only has to train phsically hard but has to concentrate and correct themselves and stay centered and calm and yet alert and aware you will find they start feeling a bit nauseous. They will say they have a bit of a stomach problem(as an excuse) and if they are made to carry on in a disciplined fashion will start going red and white blotchy in the face. If they are made to carry on they will proceed to be sick and vomit.

Of couse the person will put on a good act and say it was the takeaway they had the previous night or some such excuse.

Secondly, a story. An old friend of mine got in touch with me over four years ago now and asked me to give him something to 'clean his system out' as he had been a heavy marijuana smoker for years and had an interview coming up in three weeks for a job on london transport where your blood is tested for such things.

I told him it would take heavy exercise, saunas if possible and a special nutritional programme to be followed to the letter.

Bless him he did it and completed it and got the job and and even progressed to inspecter. The point of this story though is what he told me afterwards.

He told me that he had always thought he was relaxed and only now did he realize that he wasn't relaxed he was LETHARGIC. He laughed at himself comparing how he was to how he felt now.

Thirdly for all those interested in mechanics. Marujiana destroys all the vitamin B1 in the brain, it is this which leads to the 'high'.

Vitamin B1 is the MAJOR food for the brain.

Alcohol has a similar effect by destroying the same vitamin in fact it was discovered way back in the 60's that if you injected bib doses of vitamin B1 into the blood of a drunk alcoholic they would sober up within a couple of minutes.

Hi Marc,
Thought I would give a response here as I like what you've said and plus you might find it amusing coming from me.(first impressions and all that)

Three points. Firstly from the view of letting someone train who has been taking drugs. If the person thinks it will make their training go better then let me explain what will generally happen so that others may look out for the symptoms. If the person not only has to train phsically hard but has to concentrate and correct themselves and stay centered and calm and yet alert and aware you will find they start feeling a bit nauseous. They will say they have a bit of a stomach problem(as an excuse) and if they are made to carry on in a disciplined fashion will start going red and white blotchy in the face. If they are made to carry on they will proceed to be sick and vomit.

Of couse the person will put on a good act and say it was the takeaway they had the previous night or some such excuse.

Secondly, a story. An old friend of mine got in touch with me over four years ago now and asked me to give him something to 'clean his system out' as he had been a heavy marijuana smoker for years and had an interview coming up in three weeks for a job on london transport where your blood is tested for such things.

I told him it would take heavy exercise, saunas if possible and a special nutritional programme to be followed to the letter.

Bless him he did it and completed it and got the job and and even progressed to inspecter. The point of this story though is what he told me afterwards.

He told me that he had always thought he was relaxed and only now did he realize that he wasn't relaxed he was LETHARGIC. He laughed at himself comparing how he was to how he felt now.

Thirdly for all those interested in mechanics. Marujiana destroys all the vitamin B1 in the brain, it is this which leads to the 'high'.

Vitamin B1 is the MAJOR food for the brain.

Alcohol has a similar effect by destroying the same vitamin in fact it was discovered way back in the 60's that if you injected bib doses of vitamin B1 into the blood of a drunk alcoholic they would sober up within a couple of minutes.

Hope this helps someone their musings on the subject.

Cheers. G.

Graham:

A very good friend of mine is one of the top reggae percussionists in the world (was Jimmy Cliff's percussionist....). MOST reggae performers and even Rastafarians do not smoke pot. It is a big selling point because of Bob Marley's public embracing of marijuana. Having spend time in Jamaica, in places in and around Kingston that most people perceive as ridiculously dangerous, my family and I have had remarkably healthy and enlightening experiences with some very spiritual, kind, healthy people. I am looking forward to taking my family back to Jamaica again for this holiday season.

Back to the issue you raised.... In my younger hellion days, I was certainly no angel with drug and alcohol use. Even then, I would remain sober when competing at high level athletics. Depending upon the drugs that you are on, your performance can be artificially enhanced (the number of baseball players who have ADHD and take medication for that- speed, is statistically far beyond stat.s from the general population). The downsides with some medications can appear when they have underlying physiological conditions (weakened artery...) and the damage is subtle until it typically becomes suddenly severe and life-threatening. Other drugs, like marijuana (NOT tested for in the NBA, because they would likely not be able to field teams!) do like you say and people think that it makes them focus better, The reality has been tested too many times that people should simply give up on that argument.

detection: Pupil response is a GREAT means by which we can get a quick and relatively accurate read of whether someone is on pot, speed, opiates,....

I allow adults to act like adults. If you want to play game, be willing to live by it's rules. One of my rules is based upon personal experience, best science and sports practices, which means that sobriety in my dojo is a strictly enforced rule. I have no problem asking people to step off of my mats and talk with me if they seem under the influence of anything. Sometimes a student has had a couple of beers and is on the mats six hours later and I smell alcohol on that person's breath. I then speak to that person privately and then make my decision. I have no problems helping people with abuse and dependence problems (no me personally, because it would be an ethical violation as a psychologist- dual roles).

I am genuinely glad to see endorse sobriety. I am not surprised by that, but then again not many of us White folks attend indigenous, religious ceremonies in some of the poorest neighborhoods in Jamaica either (amazing experiences). First impressions are what they are. It is the ability to look beyond what we see that truly allows us to deepen our life experiences.

A very good friend of mine is one of the top reggae percussionists in the world (was Jimmy Cliff's percussionist....). MOST reggae performers and even Rastafarians do not smoke pot. It is a big selling point because of Bob Marley's public embracing of marijuana. Having spend time in Jamaica, in places in and around Kingston that most people perceive as ridiculously dangerous, my family and I have had remarkably healthy and enlightening experiences with some very spiritual, kind, healthy people. I am looking forward to taking my family back to Jamaica again for this holiday season.

Back to the issue you raised.... In my younger hellion days, I was certainly no angel with drug and alcohol use. Even then, I would remain sober when competing at high level athletics. Depending upon the drugs that you are on, your performance can be artificially enhanced (the number of baseball players who have ADHD and take medication for that- speed, is statistically far beyond stat.s from the general population). The downsides with some medications can appear when they have underlying physiological conditions (weakened artery...) and the damage is subtle until it typically becomes suddenly severe and life-threatening. Other drugs, like marijuana (NOT tested for in the NBA, because they would likely not be able to field teams!) do like you say and people think that it makes them focus better, The reality has been tested too many times that people should simply give up on that argument.

detection: Pupil response is a GREAT means by which we can get a quick and relatively accurate read of whether someone is on pot, speed, opiates,....

I allow adults to act like adults. If you want to play game, be willing to live by it's rules. One of my rules is based upon personal experience, best science and sports practices, which means that sobriety in my dojo is a strictly enforced rule. I have no problem asking people to step off of my mats and talk with me if they seem under the influence of anything. Sometimes a student has had a couple of beers and is on the mats six hours later and I smell alcohol on that person's breath. I then speak to that person privately and then make my decision. I have no problems helping people with abuse and dependence problems (no me personally, because it would be an ethical violation as a psychologist- dual roles).

I am genuinely glad to see endorse sobriety. I am not surprised by that, but then again not many of us White folks attend indigenous, religious ceremonies in some of the poorest neighborhoods in Jamaica either (amazing experiences). First impressions are what they are. It is the ability to look beyond what we see that truly allows us to deepen our life experiences.

OP Do you really have the time in between bouts? I get enough from endorphins, and adrenalin rush, let alone a spliff: hypno:
Like the odd cigar with a pint now and again, but the old earthy stuff not so far out kiddo....

I had been avoiding this thread. I just read every post and now I think I'm the one who needs some marijuana.

Quote:

George Ledyard wrote:

You show up high on the mat and you are sent home.

Quote:

Keith Larman wrote:

If you come on the mat impaired, well, I'm with George -- you should find the door asap. I don't care why you're impaired or what you're impaired from -- I don't want you hurt nor do I want you doing anything to or with anyone else. If you're not 100% there do everyone a favor and stay home.

Quote:

John Riggs wrote:

Under the influence of anything-drugs, alcohol, mushrooms, etc. is not only disrespectful to the art and dojo but dangerous to your fellow classmates and yourself.

Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote:

Training in any athletic endeavor when you are impaired/under the influence of any mind-altering substance is potentially dangerous not only to the person, but to anybody who trains with that person.

I can not think of any cogent reason why any dojo should allow a person to train in an altered state.
…
bottom line:

Train safe means NO MIND-ALTERING substances before training.

First, I want to say that a person who owns and operates a dojo should be able to exclude anyone from training for any reason, and obviously, any individual should be able to refuse to train with any other student for any reason.

But seeing the strength of many of the responses brought up some questions, namely what are the logical limits?

Some people are naturally violent and sadistic. Some are mentally ill or developmentally delayed. Some are extremely emotional. What about them?

Some are merely absent minded or uncoordinated, which in my experience has been the most dangerous type of person on the mat -- for themselves, their direct partner(s), and others training around them.

Is this about barring people who use particular substances? Is it about barring people who exhibit particular behaviors? Or is it about maintain the safest possible environment in the dojo?

(By the way, I realize this is a departure from the original topic, but I think that happened almost immediately. And it's an old thread, so what the heck?)

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

On a different note, Dan Harden made what in my opinion was a very intriguing post that was completely glossed over, so I thought I'd re-post it. The idea of exploring your personal limits through a variety of means seems interesting and important. Of course the extent to which one does this would seem to be highly individuated.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Two of the best guys I used to roll with liked to get high, both before and after practice. One was also a Greco Roman guy who used to love doing soft wrestling while high or after a few beers.
While we trained very seriously most of the time, we trained with a buzz on in so many living rooms, wedding receptions, parties, and parking lots I lost count. Oh the stories our loved ones could tell!!

I consider full contact jujutsu safer than aikido practice anyway. Why, because you're not giving away body parts or your whole frame to be thrown. Having someone fight to get you while you fight back is much safer, for me.

Anyway, while I don't smoke weed, I have trained/played with some veeery well known men while drunk. and we had a blast. It's another way of testing to me. Then again, I've also trained weapons in a raging blizzard two feet deep and blowing sideways, outside up and down hills, at night by moonlight, I've also gone all out while drunk (with permission from my partners). It's fun to test and play.

So, while -in general- I am all for not allowing intoxication during training, I'm just not much for sweating the little things. I agree with Fred, that some of the worst examples of Budo I have ever met were very legalistic, and wound so tight you...well, that's for another day.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

If you want to and its not harming others - why are people so concerned? From a spitiual perspective, you will already know the answer. A lot of judgemental people out there, obviously living perfect lives.

Dear Alison, ,
I cannot in all sincerity agree with yopur viewws on this subject.from personal experience istate the marijuana has caused me , my wife and my family a lot of pain.Not only has this drug caused members of my family job prospects thanks to this stuff this harmless [joke] crap has seriouslyaffected a member of my family and nearly ruined another.This drug is responsible for ruining a lot lives.Harmless?I think not.Cheers , Joe.

I live in Washington state where we just "legalized" the stuff. I know a lot of people who smoke and I used to smoke pretty heavily myself so I have a very direct set of experiences. I see more problematic behavior with alcohol than weed, but I'm inclined to think the problems are deeper rooted than the substances abused...which clearly do compound those issues though.
That being said I believe I just heard about a study which suggests marijuana can lead to a form of schizophrenia (or similar behavior) in some people. Again, I'm inclined to think all substance abuse can contribute to having similar results, albeit perhaps not in the same conditions.
The most pervasive problem I can see is the effects of smoking on the lungs/breath as well as the issues that come from any chronic substance use, which gradually rewire certain mental functions (e.g. memory and motivation).

I live in Washington state where we just "legalized" the stuff. I know a lot of people who smoke and I used to smoke pretty heavily myself so I have a very direct set of experiences. I see more problematic behavior with alcohol than weed, but I'm inclined to think the problems are deeper rooted than the substances abused...which clearly do compound those issues though.
That being said I believe I just heard about a study which suggests marijuana can lead to a form of schizophrenia (or similar behavior) in some people. Again, I'm inclined to think all substance abuse can contribute to having similar results, albeit perhaps not in the same conditions.
The most pervasive problem I can see is the effects of smoking on the lungs/breath as well as the issues that come from any chronic substance use, which gradually rewire certain mental functions (e.g. memory and motivation).

Hi Matt, to be fair that study really states that schizos do better with weed than without; it jumps to the conclusion that ergo people go schizo in a really strange from the science but understandable from the politics. 26 people study all schizophrenic is really no go way to make a claim like that.

That said, I have / do smoke and it has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido. IMHO so NO. Dumb question in my mind. Can you do aikido when you're not sober? Yeah, I've seen that in all forms. So just cause you can doesnt mean much.

Hi Matt, to be fair that study really states that schizos do better with weed than without; it jumps to the conclusion that ergo people go schizo in a really strange from the science but understandable from the politics. 26 people study all schizophrenic is really no go way to make a claim like that.

That said, I have / do smoke and it has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido. IMHO so NO. Dumb question in my mind. Can you do aikido when you're not sober? Yeah, I've seen that in all forms. So just cause you can doesnt mean much.

And I'm drinking a beer right now

Hi Alfonso,
Thanks for the info!
I must have misread it but I thought it stated that some of the schizophrenics in the case (the ones with a history of marijuana) displayed differences that suggested it was induced through the repeated use; that the mechanisms involved are similar and that the repeated use probably increase susceptibility. I do recall a meta analysis (i.e. an article about it) which suggested that this only applies to a small percentage of people...I want to say something on the order of 1 in 50,000; so if this were my home town of Everett (population of approx 100,000 people) only about 2 people would have a risk.
I wasn't aware it only involved 26 people though. If that's it, I'm not sure how they could infer much...then again there must be more studies in that vein if someone was able to do a meta analysis. Clearly I'll have to read up on it in more detail.
Take care,
Matt

I've noticed such a tendency amoung people that I know smoke weed for long periods that it's an actual stereotype.

Long term weed use seems to inhibit ambition, that's been my observation. And.. the smokers don't seem to care that they lack it, thus the problem.

Quote:

"They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do just as well — you just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference."

Over the last few years I've followed this thread, and have probably read through every post. It's interesting how this topic really seems to press some buttons.

The world of Budo is no stranger to mind altering substances. There are many stories and examples of imbibing budoka, including a story told by Nishio where he describes, "One entire wall of a six tatami room in Hombu Dojo was used for shelves with alcohol stacked up to the ceiling."

When I trained in Denmark, I trained for a couple of years at Christiania Aikido, which was located in Christiania also known as "Free Town" in Copenhagen. It's classified as an "experiment" by the Danish government. In the early 70's people entered and began squatting in abandoned houses and military barracks and using the 80 acres of land to build a community and establish an autonomous neighborhood with its own government.

If you can imagine the Woodstock Festival being turned into a town — that's Christiania. A real time warp to the late 60's. It's a very popular place, with tourists passing through, concerts and festivals. The culture there is mostly one of sustainability and independence. There are a lot of artists and craftsman with private workshops and houses, and cafes and concert halls for the community. Many of the spaces are stunningly beautiful.

Real troublemakers, bikers, and hard drugs were evicted in the late 70's. Leaving behind a relatively safe and peaceful core community — although not without occasional flare ups of violence. As you can imagine, it's pretty hippy-dippy, and there are groups and classes for all kinds of things, including meditation, yoga, softer martial arts, etc..

There's also a pretty big hash culture there, similar to Amsterdam. Hash is openly sold at stands on the main street, called "Pusher Street," and it's openly smoked and enjoyed in cafes and bars.

Christiania Aikido training sessions — which were two hours long and held five days per week – often adjourned afterwards to one of the cafes for some relaxation and conversation. This would often include some coffee or tea or beer and a little something to eat, as well as the making and passing around of a hash joint or chillum.

The conversations were always stimulating and explorative, and of course many of them revolved around Aikido. It was a very intensive and immersive time. And I have fond memories of the friendships and training that were forged there.