It is a form and degree of withdrawing. Having to cover up your head while respectable also signifies other things, such as a woman has to and a man does not. I understand with most Muslim women it is their choice but it is still a degree of inequality between the sexes. I can respect their choice but not the inequality. This is their choice and I trust in time they will discard with it other than a fashion statement. Would like to see it be totally and fully one's choice and if a woman wants to go without then no other Muslim would question her faith.

That is where my issue is, with standards, with others questioning or proving faith (something totally within) by doing something to the exterior. Islam would be strengthened if less focus was given to the outside.

I know Muslim women who don't cover up because they don't live in countries with laws about clothing, so like the common theme in many discussions about Islam of late, attributing these oppressive codes to the religion is a mistake. This girl wears Hijab (but not Niqab or Burqa) because she wants to but if she didn't want to, she wouldn't have to, and she'd still be a Muslim. Going out in miniskirts and tank tops without a bra wouldn't be Halal. Islam (scripture) values modesty.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature. The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding." ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity. To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

It is a form and degree of withdrawing. Having to cover up your head while respectable also signifies other things, such as a woman has to and a man does not. I understand with most Muslim women it is their choice but it is still a degree of inequality between the sexes. I can respect their choice but not the inequality. This is their choice and I trust in time they will discard with it other than a fashion statement. Would like to see it be totally and fully one's choice and if a woman wants to go without then no other Muslim would question her faith.

That is where my issue is, with standards, with others questioning or proving faith (something totally within) by doing something to the exterior. Islam would be strengthened if less focus was given to the outside.

Regarding covering up we are mixing up religion and current social accepted behavior.
In covering up there is no or almost no difference between christianity, judaism and islam. Women in all three faiths are obligated to cover their hair.
With the time and with social attitudes covering up became more of a choice in all three faiths. Even now the majority of christian women cover their hair when they go to church, more in the eastern orthodox then in the western christianity but this also depends from where you are. Spain, italy, portugal are more likely to have women cover their hair then england, germany.
Nuns cover their hair full time, just as it is commended in the bible.
Muslim woman in islamic countries wear hijabs because of many reasons. Religious, social...
Muslim women in non islamic countries wear hijabs or not equaly because of religious and social reasons.
Many would say they are forced which is partly true in islamic countries, but what about hijabs where there is no force? It is called freedom of choice. Still, in this case, many muslim women opt for the hijab, because they chose to do so.
Look at the older and more religious christian women italy, portugal, spain..they all cover their hair all the time.

Still waiting on a female Muslim convert that doesn't run out and cover up....

Every begining is hard. New converts tend to take the new religion more serious then the ones who live it since a while and are acustom.
This does apply to anything that is new.
When I was enlisted in the army, as a new recrut, I feard every little stripe. I followed the law. A year later there was not a day that I was either drunk, in jail, in a fight, out in town without propper papers. Just a regular phase.
When you start a new job you follow strictly the brake rules. Later you make your own brake rules.

Some real Muslim women do not cover up. The degrading analogy above is one the world can do without...

Also still waiting for a Muslim man to cover up. Goose, gander...

Well there are many many muslims who cover up.
Arabs have theirs, pakistanis their version, singapourians theirs, and then there are european muslims who have their had covered wearing either a white cap, simmilar to the jewish one, like the albanian muslims or the french cap, favoured by the bosnian older muslims. The variaty is huge.

Hello Reality and all that is True
When Oxymoron was defined it was just for you

Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

The world needs you, on 05 June 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Still waiting on a female Muslim convert that doesn't run out and cover up....

Well if my niece had converted as she was seriously considering doing she would not have covered up. Interestingly it was her muslim fiance (now husband) that put the kabosh on that idea and said he fell in love with who she was and she had no need to change to please him or his family (his mother was the one who was eager for a muslim wedding and had her nearly convinced that it would be for the best if she converted to allow that - his father, like his son, could not care less). None of her husband's family "covers up", in fact I find her mother in laws taste in clothes a little "revealing" for her age but that's just my opinion.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

I was reading a report on islam in bosnia by a german journalist a few months ago.
At one point he was talking to a young bosnian muslim woman who descided to wear a hijab. He asked what her mother said about it since she herself does not wear one. She said her mothers words were why, you are not an old grandma yet.
I must say recently it is a kind of "in", a new fashion statement rather then a religous one in bosnia to have a hijab.

OMZJ, Yamato, Why do I have to watch a video of some young girl talk about her religion. I mean if she was sitting there butt naked I might get through the whole thing, but she lost me in the first minute or so. Are you that young woman? Why don't you explain why you're a Muslim? My step-nephew is a Muslim. He told me he is a Muslim because everything he needs to know is explained by the Koran. To which I said, in other words you are unable to think for yourself. Naturally that went over like a lead balloon. If you can come up with a better reason than he did then please enlighten me.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

OMZJ, Yamato, Why do I have to watch a video of some young girl talk about her religion. I mean if she was sitting there butt naked I might get through the whole thing, but she lost me in the first minute or so. Are you that young woman? Why don't you explain why you're a Muslim? My step-nephew is a Muslim. He told me he is a Muslim because everything he needs to know is explained by the Koran. To which I said, in other words you are unable to think for yourself. Naturally that went over like a lead balloon. If you can come up with a better reason than he did then please enlighten me.

If she were "butt naked", the video would have been removed by YouTube. Also, your statement seems to imply that you would not listen to a woman talk about religion unless she was naked. That tells me that your mind would be on sex rather than religion.

There is no need to be rude about religion unless someone is forcing it down your throat, which I assume your nephew is not. If it is what makes him happy, let him be as long as he isn't hurting anyone. I often have to get on my significant other for this as he is staunchly atheist and often accuses people of worshiping "imaginary gods". I am of the opinion that we can't know if there is or is not, but I'm okay with people believing there is or is not. We just shouldn't use it as an excuse to be mean.

Some people need a little leadership. It's not wrong to need guidance from time to time.

I respect Islam as being one of the people of the book . This is what Muslims call us:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

—Qur'an 2:62

Still the need for someone to withdraw from the world and coverup, unless my assessment is wrong, seems unnecessary. All faiths need to change to join a postmodern world where the divisions between us become less meaningful. Expressions without withdrawing is what is needed. Can't wait to see the new Islam one day.

According to bible scripture you will probably see it quite soon, relatively speaking of course. No I am no prophet. But the word says that there would be a great apostasy before Christ returned and the "man of sin" was revealed. I believe that ecumenism is a major sign of that. Christians are increasingly being fingered and even shouted down as "intolerant or hateful". My Lord said publicly "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me" I actually believe this. Does this mean that I judge those who do not believe it? NO. Not ever. But I will point out what I see as error if they ask or if they tell me I am wrong. We all have to come to peace with these concepts in our own ways and part of that process should not include being killed, subjugated or even harangued into a different belief system.

Edit to add WELCOME BACK RATTE!

Edited by and then, 05 June 2013 - 08:21 PM.

We've cast the world, we've set the stage, for what could be, the darkest age...“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

I am not particularly religious and there is Nothing wrong with being a Muslim if you follow the rules of the Koran, and act peacefully, but when you get these Crazy Horse Numpties shouting Allah Akbar as they hack someone to bits,not only in London but Iraq,and other places, urged on by Mullahs who spew out Hate and Death to all Christians makes me think that this religeon is not what Mohammad intended when he set it up.You don't find Christian Priests urging their faithful to go out and kill Muslims shouting God is Great.The sooner you Muslims guys realise that some of your high up religious commanders are nutcases and chuck them out the better it will be for all religeons, because at the end product the simple fact is You aint gonna win.

I am not particularly religious and there is Nothing wrong with being a Muslim if you follow the rules of the Koran, and act peacefully, but when you get these Crazy Horse Numpties shouting Allah Akbar as they hack someone to bits,not only in London but Iraq,and other places, urged on by Mullahs who spew out Hate and Death to all Christians makes me think that this religeon is not what Mohammad intended when he set it up.You don't find Christian Priests urging their faithful to go out and kill Muslims shouting God is Great.The sooner you Muslims guys realise that some of your high up religious commanders are nutcases and chuck them out the better it will be for all religeons, because at the end product the simple fact is You aint gonna win.

This is exactly the kind of thing the OP was talking about. This amounts to little more than a thinly veiled insult, acting as if each Muslim is to blame for one decidedly small groups actions.

Not every Muslim takes what the fanatics have to say in stride. Or to heart. But I do know that, where I'm from, Muslims won't even try to defend themselves in fear of being attacked. I'm not a Muslim and I get attacked (mostly verbally, of course) for simply defending people.