Apparently there is some disagreement with the meaning of SUBMIT. What does the wife's submission to her husband mean in the context of THE NEW TESTAMENT? I specify NT because The Old Testament is pretty clear on the relationship (I think), and this is born from Bachman's response in the debate.

Thanks.

GreenDrake

08-14-2011, 07:21

She's waxing it. It means to give up the cookie when he wants it.

Kingarthurhk

08-14-2011, 09:46

If we are referring to marriage there is a great deal of mention of it in scripture and the roles to be played.

Ephesians 5:22-33, "<SUP>22</SUP> Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. <SUP id=en-NIV-29328 class=versenum>23</SUP> For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. <SUP id=en-NIV-29329 class=versenum>24</SUP> Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
<SUP id=en-NIV-29330 class=versenum>25</SUP> Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her <SUP id=en-NIV-29331 class=versenum>26</SUP> to make her holy, cleansing<SUP class=footnote value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29331b)]</SUP> her by the washing with water through the word, <SUP id=en-NIV-29332 class=versenum>27</SUP> and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. <SUP id=en-NIV-29333 class=versenum>28</SUP> In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. <SUP id=en-NIV-29334 class=versenum>29</SUP> After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— <SUP id=en-NIV-29335 class=versenum>30</SUP> for we are members of his body. <SUP id=en-NIV-29336 class=versenum>31</SUP> “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”<SUP class=footnote value='[c (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29336c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29336c)]</SUP> <SUP id=en-NIV-29337 class=versenum>32</SUP> This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. <SUP id=en-NIV-29338 class=versenum>33</SUP> However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

Notice, the greatest burden is with the husband. The wife only need to submit to the will of her husband. The husband has the greater obligation. We find many references like this where the church is the "bride" and Jesus the "husband". So, beyond the description of how husbands and wives are to treat each other with love and care, there is an analogy to the relationship that Jesus has with his people, the "profound mystery" when we enter into a saving relationship with Jesus. So, the above mentioned passage not only describes the interplay of Jesus and his people; but how the marriage of man and woman are to ineract in a loving sybiosis. We are to become one with our spouse. We are to leave the "world" and become one spiritually with Jesus.

Malachi 2:10-16, " <SUP>10</SUP> Do we not all have one Father<SUP class=footnote value=''>[[B]b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23114b)]</SUP>? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

<SUP id=en-NIV-23115 class=versenum>11</SUP> Judah has been unfaithful. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the LORD loves by marrying women who worship a foreign god. <SUP id=en-NIV-23116 class=versenum>12</SUP> As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the LORD remove him from the tents of Jacob<SUP class=footnote value='[c (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23116c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23116c)]</SUP>—even though he brings an offering to the LORD Almighty.
<SUP id=en-NIV-23117 class=versenum>13</SUP> Another thing you do: You flood the LORD’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer looks with favor on your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. <SUP id=en-NIV-23118 class=versenum>14</SUP> You ask, “Why?” It is because the LORD is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
<SUP id=en-NIV-23119 class=versenum>15</SUP> Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring.<SUP class=footnote value='[d (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23119d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23119d)]</SUP> So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.
<SUP id=en-NIV-23120 class=versenum>16</SUP> “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,”<SUP class=footnote value='[e (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23120e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23120e)]</SUP> says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful."

Again we see the mention of the marriage relationship of God to his people, and his thoughts on the earthly relationship of man and wife as well.

Matthew 19:1-9, "<SUP>1</SUP> When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. <SUP id=en-NIV-23765 class=versenum>2</SUP> Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

<SUP id=en-NIV-23766 class=versenum>3</SUP> Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
<SUP id=en-NIV-23767 class=versenum>4</SUP> “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’<SUP class=footnote value='[a (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23767a)]'>[[B]a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23767a)]</SUP> <SUP id=en-NIV-23768 class=versenum>5</SUP> and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’<SUP class=footnote value=''>[[B]b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23768b)]</SUP>? <SUP id=en-NIV-23769 class=versenum>6</SUP> So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
<SUP id=en-NIV-23770 class=versenum>7</SUP> “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” <SUP id=en-NIV-23771 class=versenum>8</SUP> Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. <SUP id=en-NIV-23772 class=versenum>9</SUP> I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Jesus refers to His return to gather His people as a bridegroom.

Matthew 25:1-13, "<SUP>1</SUP> “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. <SUP id=en-NIV-24011 class=versenum>2</SUP> Five of them were foolish and five were wise. <SUP id=en-NIV-24012 class=versenum>3</SUP> The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. <SUP id=en-NIV-24013 class=versenum>4</SUP> The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. <SUP id=en-NIV-24014 class=versenum>5</SUP> The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

<SUP id=en-NIV-24015 class=versenum>6</SUP> “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
<SUP id=en-NIV-24016 class=versenum>7</SUP> “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. <SUP id=en-NIV-24017 class=versenum>8</SUP> The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
<SUP id=en-NIV-24018 class=versenum>9</SUP> “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
<SUP id=en-NIV-24019 class=versenum>10</SUP> “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
<SUP id=en-NIV-24020 class=versenum>11</SUP> “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
<SUP id=en-NIV-24021 class=versenum>12</SUP> “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ <SUP id=en-NIV-24022 class=versenum>13</SUP> “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

I could keep going; however, I think the importance of the marriage relationship along with the roles, and the spiritual aspect is pretty clear.

Vic Hays

08-14-2011, 10:20

Apparently there is some disagreement with the meaning of SUBMIT. What does the wife's submission to her husband mean in the context of THE NEW TESTAMENT? I specify NT because The Old Testament is pretty clear on the relationship (I think), and this is born from Bachman's response in the debate.

Thanks.

There is an idea that a wife must submit completely to the will of the husband, but read the fine print in the Bible.

Ephesians 5:22-23, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Another way of saying it would be that a wife should submit to everything that the Lord would ask her to submit to. This is not everything that a man might ask from his wife, just what is right and good.

steveksux

08-14-2011, 11:13

Here's my definition of submit.

I make all the big decisions. I let her make the small decisions.

Of course, she decides which are the big decisions and which are the small ones. Its only fair.

Randy

hogfish

08-14-2011, 11:22

It seems to say that the wife must honor and obey the husband, while the husband must protect and treat her well, and in no way abuse his position of authority.

As the relationship is compared to Christ-God and His Church, does The New Testament mention anything about the husband having the 'right' to punish the wife in any way?

Thanks.

Brucev

08-14-2011, 13:47

In Ephesians Paul is addressing a number of issues, of which one is what has been described as a household code. The issue of submission properly begins in vs. 21, not vs. 22. There is no verb in vs. 22. The sentences in consideration read ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ ... being subject to one another in fear of Christ. Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὑποτάσσεσθε, ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ ... The wives to their own husbands as to (the) Lord. Whatever it is that one expects of ones wife as per vs. 22 is precisely what one owes to ones wife as per vs. 21. Submission is mutual, one to another as unto Christ. It is a choice. It is not by force. In vs. 24 wives are instructed to be ὑποτάσσεται ... subject... to their husbands in everything ( "ought" typically in english translations is not in the Gk. text). The overwhelming emphasis is is of a mutual submission of equals (vs. 21) with the family dynamics being marked by husbands being responsible as authority and bearing the universal obligation to deal with his wife in ἀγαπάω ... love (in this context the word conveys the idea of to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly. It is typlified by the way Jesus loves). Husbands are to ἀγαπᾶτε ... love their wives (present active imperative) ... as their own bodies... as themselves. A man who loves his wife as Christ loves will unfailingly seek the best and highest for her. The rub is that seldom is it that such love is the norm of family life. There are to many instances in which men fail to so love sacrificially their wives. Women are to φοβῆται ... respect ( reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience ) their husbands. Husbands earn that respect as they love their wives. In vs. 33 that is made very clear as husbands are commanded first with the concluding thought directed to wives. In Gk. word order matters. In this discussion of the Christian home, Paul stresses mutual submission of equals with ultimate authority vested in the husband. He speaks at length to what it means for the husband to love his wife. He concludes stressing again that husbands are to love and that the appropriate response of wives is to respect their husbands.

Brucev

08-14-2011, 14:36

"As the relationship is compared to Christ-God and His Church, does The New Testament mention anything about the husband having the 'right' to punish the wife in any way?" No. The "right to 'punish'" is never addressed. Paul stresses that the husband is in every way to be guided/controlled by love in his relationship to his wife and the wife is to respect her husband. It is hard to imagine any wife who would not respect such a husband who loved her so selflessly.

AlexHassin

08-14-2011, 15:05

To sum it up, keep the pimp hand strong.

hogfish

08-14-2011, 17:02

"As the relationship is compared to Christ-God and His Church, does The New Testament mention anything about the husband having the 'right' to punish the wife in any way?" No. The "right to 'punish'" is never addressed. Paul stresses that the husband is in every way to be guided/controlled by love in his relationship to his wife and the wife is to respect her husband. It is hard to imagine any wife who would not respect such a husband who loved her so selflessly.

If this is so, it's a very good thing!

Thanks. :thumbsup:

Brucev

08-14-2011, 21:19

If this is so, it's a very good thing!

Thanks. :thumbsup:

With respect, I am certain it is correct. At no place in the N.T. is it suggested much less stated that a husband has any right at all to punish his wife. That is an idea that is simply foreign to N.T. faith in Christ.

hogfish

08-15-2011, 03:56

With respect, I am certain it is correct. At no place in the N.T. is it suggested much less stated that a husband has any right at all to punish his wife. That is an idea that is simply foreign to N.T. faith in Christ.

It is things like this that I always thought were the difference between The Old and New Testaments.

Thanks.

Vic Hays

08-15-2011, 06:33

The New Testament does require that marriage be between believers I Corinthians 7:39 and II Corinthians 6:14. Two genuine believers, if they have submitted themselves to Christ should surely be able to work things out among themselves. It is only when self rises up that problems come up which can't be solved.

Brucev

08-15-2011, 07:37

It is things like this that I always thought were the difference between The Old and New Testaments.

Thanks.

It is common to describe the Bible as comprised of the Old Testament and the New Testament. There is no doubt that the New Testament reflects a fulfillment of much that in the OT era lay in the future. As to family life, the NT reflects life seen through Christ. The OT reflects the broad semi-episodic experience of the Jewish people. Not everything the Jewish people did reflected the will of God. They were to often in and of the pagan world that surrounded them. This is not surprisingly seen in marriage and family life/structure that often less than perfectly meassured up to the ideal normative in the NT. Doubtless cruelty and outrageous abuse occurred. The period reflected in the book of Judges has for good reason been called the "dark ages of Israel" a time when "every man did as was right in his own eyes." Some would also characterize some of the family/community codes of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy (traditionally described as the "Books of Moses") as developmental and obsoleted in Christ. I am not aware of any place in the OT where there is any sort of support for the idea that a husband has the right to punish his wife.

Sharkey

08-15-2011, 21:31

It means Michele Bachmann better be cooking her man some dinner every night in her bare feet in the white House! :whistling:

NorthCarolinaLiberty

08-16-2011, 02:23

Let somebody else make a decision when you sense you can blame them later.

Ogreon

08-17-2011, 01:23

It means Michele Bachmann better be cooking her man some dinner every night in her bare feet in the white House! :whistling: