Your first PodCast: fine work. Sometimes, it is maddening to sit at home in front of the tv and not be able to respond to the blathering idiots on the air–in this case, the vacuous Churchill and the crass Maher. So, in a way, you did it for us. Jeff, I think the PodCasts will be a welcome addition to your incisive commentary and analysis.

Faramin

Despite what you are trying to picture Jeff, Maher never says that because of what the US did in killing millions of people, directly or indirectly, US deserved 9/11. He never says that. The most he might be saying is that those crimes could have resulted in this attack. That has nothing to do with deserving it or not.
But the peak of your hypocracy Jeff is when you talk about Palestine. You sound like Israel has been the absolute victim and the Palestinians the absolute killers. Well, this Israeli site doesn’t agree with you. In fact you yourself don’t agree with you, but since you are a liar, or “helf-truth teller”, you continue your hypocracy every opportunity you get.
BTW, in one of your posts, you called Maher “un-American”. Let me tell you that it is you and your type who are in fact un-American. Because it is you and your type who creat hatred towards the US with the constant arrogance and dis-regard for the lives of millions of people around the world. It is you and your type who are hurting your country.
How could you live with yourself?

::GAZE::

Heh. Gotta love those trolls.

richard mcenroe

::GAZE:: Heck yeah. Without them, how would we know what we’d just heard or read our own selves?

Armando

Jeff:
Let me take your side for once. In your earlier post on Churchill, you said ‘this isn’t about Left or Right.’ Good. Churchill is a skunk. Maher giving him another platform and then interviewing him in such a fashion is rightly deplorable.
Obe kast thiing you could do though – publicly dsagree with Instapundits brazenly false attempts to tar Democrats with Churchill.

Dan Irving

You sound like Israel has been the absolute victim and the Palestinians the absolute killers.
He never said that – if he never said that how can he be a hypocrite?In fact you yourself don’t agree with you, but since you are a liar, or “helf-truth teller”, you continue your hypocracy every opportunity you get.
…brain … hurts ….

Donna V.

Well, since I expect Oliver Willis to pop up here whining about right-wing Nazis, here’s a tidbit of information for him: David Duke has posted an article about poor, misunderstood brown shirt Ernest Zundel on Indymedia Argentina.
Indymedia is about as “right-wing” as the Daily Kos and DU, and yet. strangely enough, Jew-haters seem to feel right at home there.
If Willis is right about the “fascist” GOP, wouldn’t Duke be publishing his dreck in The National Review instead?http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/269784.php

Clay

I enjoyed the pod cast, I will definetly listen again. I would say it could be shorter though. I think you could have trashed him sufficiently in half the time.

Russkie

The comments thread at CrooksAndLiars is downright scary. A lot of people saying that Churchill is too intellectual to perform well on TV etc. …. not too many people who are saying “I’m a democrat, but I find Churchill and Maher to be loony”.
It’s nice to hear that Armando thinks Churchill is a “skunk” – but has he said so on his own site? In a post that isn’t dedicated to lashing out at Glenn Reynolds??

http://www.buzzmachine.com Jeff Jarvis

Clay: You’re right. I decided to let them speak at length, too but it does go on too long. Maybe I’ll try an edited version.

http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

Armando: “Obe kast thiing you could do though – publicly dsagree with Instapundits brazenly false attempts to tar Democrats with Churchill.”
It’s called leading by example. If Jeff Jarvis is representative of the Democratic party, then the Instapundit claim rings hollow.
But when Democrats defend Churchill, and berate and marginalize Jarvis, then Instapundit bing! hits the mark.

http://aanddoubleu.blogspot.com Andrew Watkins

I actually enjoyed getting to hear the longer broadcast, which was great, by the way — I feel like this is a progression of the Jon Stewart Crossfire appearance phenomenon — there is so much out there worth attention, and worth taking note of, and not only is Jeff doing a service by providing us a copy, but this is what the entire blogosphere does best: provide illumination for something worthwhile, something everyone may not have caught the first time around.

Artmando

I’ve condemned Churchill in numerous posts.
But Instapundit and Jeff don’t notice those posts at dailykos.

http://weblog.durp.net Nick

Thanks for posting the mp3–when I have time to waste I’ll listen to it.

Mary

Very interesting – and entertaining. Jeff, you sound so calm. I’d have a hard time not ranting! Bill Maher is such an ass. I can’t believe that I used to think he was funny! Anyway, I look forward to more podcasts!!

Mumblix Grumph

SCORE!
Thanks, Jeff.

Pete

Thanks for the podcast Jeff. It worked well on my Mac.
Until Maher went on broadcast TV I never knew how good an actor he was. I went to a taping before then, and used to think he was insightful.
Maher is a perfect example in my mind of why they disrespect us; which is worse than why they hate us. Simply hating us would never have brought on the attacks. People like Maher (and Churchill) invite this kind of action openly, and then say “thank you.”

Slowjack

This was interesting. I just wanted to point out that while I disagree with Churchill’s thesis (rather strongly, in fact), I think you misinterpreted one thing he said. When he referred to “immaculate genocide,” I think “genocide” refers to the deaths caused by U.S. actions, not those of the terrorists. In other words, I think he was asking the brother, “Okay, maybe your brother didn’t contribute to killings on behalf on the U.S., but someone else in the building did.” I think his asking about “immaculate genocide” is saying, if someone died at the hands of the U.S., then some Americans are responsible.
That said, this line of argument makes no better sense than anything else. It appears to endorse the kind of collective punishment that is criticized elsewhere.

Claude

Jeff,
This was great! As for the length of the podcasts, you could make some longer, some shorter. The length of this one seemed perfect to me.

Ralph

Nice going. I’m a Colorado taxpayer. Lots of stuff needs to be addressed at out State University. We should keep Churchill on, just make him own up to what a jerk he is.

Chaunce Hayden

Well, you get points for doing something new with the fisking format I guess…but there are at least two comments you made that are quite inaccurate.
1) Your claim that Maher calls the 9-11 victims a bunch of “Ted Kaczynskis” – that is not what he said. Maher was trying to get Churchill to begin by describing the context in which he made his controversial remarks by referring to something that is not controversial, that America has a bloody history. Maher prefaced this by saying that American’s often don’t like to be reminded of these facts (and you’ve just proved his point Jeff) because it’s a bit like hearing that your brother is Ted Kaczynski. There is no way to interpret that as “Maher called the 9-11 victims Ted Kaczynskis” unless you have poor listening comprehension or are indulging in deliberate distortion. Further evidence that your interpretation is nonsense is that Maher goes on to say that, even though America has a bloody past and “passive aggressive” present, he disagrees with Churchill’s comment that the 9-11 victims were “little Eichmanns” so it follows that he wouldn’t agree that they were “little Kaczynskis” either.
2) Your claim that Maher “exploited” the brother of the WTC victim. Michael Faughnan wrote an open letter to Ward Churchill in which he stated:
“Mr. Churchill, we have the right to ask you, in fact, we are obligated to ask you publicly. And you, sir, we feel, are obligated to answer us publicly and unequivocally. In your view, was my brother’s death justified? Yes or no? Did it right any wrongs that have been committed in this world?”http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0216-28.htm
Mr. Faughnan wanted to confront Ward Churchill, and Maher provided him the opportunity. To call that exploitation is stupid.

http://www.unclemikey.blogspot.com Uncle Mikey

Muy bueno, much better than a transcript fisking. Thanks for forcing me to figure out just what a podcast is . . .

http://www.talesofawanderingmind.blogspot.com David

Bill Maher is an absolutely disgusting individual — no better than Ward Churchill and perhaps worse, because he pretends to be better.
And I am sorry, Armando, unless many more Democrats actively disavow Churchill and Maher and those like them, then I think it is only fair to say they represent the Democratic party.
It seems to me that the left wants to have its cake and eat it too. You can’t let these people represent you and get in all sorts of “pot shots” at the right and then say you disagree with them.
We ain’t buying it.

dloye

I love the idea of a podcast. With a little time, the citizen journalists have a whole new venue of story telling at their command. A whole new megaphone is born. Yours is nice, and as an early example of a podcast points toward a lot of ways to grow the medium.

Armando

Only fair to say wha? That’s the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
So, let me ask you, where is your blog post condemning Gibbons? Ann Coulter? And on and on. Why then they must represent the Right of course.
Ridiculous.

http://electronicbubba.blogspot.com/ Bubba

senem ol boahs down heah an ah’ll make em squeel lak pigs.

http://www.oregoncommentator.com Timothy

Great podcast, Jeff. It’s been years since I thought Maher was funny, this is a huge reminder of why I stopped paying attention to him. That and the whole PETA thing. Also, you have a very soothing voice, have you considered radio? I bet if Air America got you instead of Al Franken there’d be more listeners.

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

America has a bloody history. Maher prefaced this by saying that American’s often don’t like to be reminded of these facts (and you’ve just proved his point Jeff)
Oh.for.gods.sake. Can you puh-leeze tell me who does not have a “bloody history?”
It’s not that I’m “uncomfortable” when someone brings up that “fact”…its that I’m friggin’ bored with it. OOOooo… Americans did naughty things in their past! Bring out the hairshirts and lets all indulge in a few rounds of self-flagellation!
What bizarre absolutist “standards” are held by the Left that nothing ‘good’ can be done by Americans (or Israel) because they have fallen short of perfectionism, but nothing ‘bad’ can ever be done by those who are “oppressed” by nasty Western Civilization.

http://www.democracyguy.com tim

sorry, a bit off topic (but not much!)
just saw krugman on Meet the Press, Kennedy on Stephanopolous….the petulance over what’s going on in the middle east is palpable. is there one liberal, one Democrat, out there who can actually say with a straight face they support what’s going on there? anyone?
(and armando, don’t say you’re doing this at Kos. you’re not.)

http://www.rickleephoto.com Rick Lee

Great concept, love the audio-fisking.
First a little technical note. For voice recordings, I’d say that 128kbps is way overkill and the download could have been a LOT smaller if you’d saved that in a less hi-fi format.
I think you misunderstood something Churchill said… when he used that wierd phrase “immaculate genocide”, It seemed that you thought he was referring to the WTC destruction. I thought he was referring to some un-specified genocide perpetrated by the US…. and that *somebody* had to be responsible for America’s “crimes”.

SteveMG

I just wished that whatever standard or measure the left uses to judge America and American history is applied equally to other nations.
Yes, indeed, America has a bloody history. As a commenter above posted, which country doesn’t? And yes, indeed, America has committed terrible acts and supported terrible regimes (although you rarely hear criticism of our support for Stalin, no?).
But the measure to judge America must be, should be used to judge other great historic powers. And in that contest, the US will win every time. Our hands are not clean, yes, but they are not totally dirty.
SMG

Shivas Irons

Simply stated, Thank You. I’ve lifted the hyperlink and am sending it far and wide. People need to know how wide the spectrum is, politically – and that there is an edge where only lemmings dare.
Cheers.

richard mcenroe

David

richard mcenroe

Sorry. “Him” should be “Michael Moore”…

Russkie

(and armando, don’t say you’re doing this at Kos. you’re not.)
Yes that’s right. All the mentions of Churchill that I’ve seen at Kos have been positive, or at least sympathetic.

http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

Armando: “So, let me ask you, where is your blog post condemning Gibbons? Ann Coulter? And on and on. Why then they must represent the Right of course.”
Ann Coulter only offends the fringe left. What difference would condemning her make? Condemning her wouldn’t win over the extremist nuts she habitually rakes over the coals.
The left’s mistake is to embrace people who offend wholesale. You *know* you’re in trouble when you’re supporting a guy that outrages the moderates on *your side*.
And I also don’t buy this “we’re condemning him elsewhere” business. If so, there would be no reason to crab about it over here, you’d instead be joining JJ’s chorus, and those of us on the right would have to find something else to talk about.

Abdul

If Churchill said he was in favor of killing and mutilating Americans — and he probably does — there would be an avalanches of orgamsms from the Kossacks.
And is there a difference between Michael Moore and Churchill apart from 600 pounds?

http://oliverwillis.com Oliver

Ann Coulter: The Democratic Party “supports killing, lying, adultery, thievery, envy”
Jeff, this is a woman who shares the stage with the vice-president of the United States. She has a louder megaphone and more institutional support from the right than an idiot like Churchill ever had or will have from the Democrats or the left.Why do you not care?
(and notice who decides to link to his favorite “liberal” again)

mishu

Here’s a nutty thought. Let’s just run it up the flag pole shall we?
If executives in the WTC are little eichmans for investing money in defense contractors (I guess). Then wouldn’t hippie protestors from the ’60s and ’70s be little eichmans as well?
Let me expand on this. U.S. involvement in Vietnam assisted the South Vietnamese in fighting the communists and by 1972, occupy most of Vietnam. The enemy was pinned down along the border of Cambodia. The protest movement precipitated the withdrawal of American troops and funding for the South Vietnamese. With continued funding from China, the communist north won the war in 1975. Since 1975 communist Vietnam has killed and worked to death over 160,000 people and imprisoned over one million of its people in forced labor camps. Some of these camps were in operation as late as 2001.
Therefore, in Ward Churchill logic, the leftist anti-US protest movements, including Ward Churchill himself, have blood on their hands? The fruits of their actions allowed not only the persecution and torture of Vietnamese people but also the genocide of the Montagnard hill tribe. By his his own reasoning Ward Churchill himself is a little eichman.

Jim S

carsonfire,
I am not a member of the far left fringe. I find Ann Coulter extremely offensive. She is a raging bigot of the highest order who insists on painting all Democrats with a broad brush by carefully selecting some examples to bolster her weak case. I am not at all surprised (based on your posts) that you strongly support her. You engage once again here in the favorite sport of the modern American conservative, the pot calling the kettle black.

JRK

Fine job Jeff…and for the impatient, maybe a truncated version is indicated. But the full version is really necessary for a proper fisking and you do indeed administer the pain.
And please, don’t let the trolls from Kos get you down. Their marching orders are to move you off your mark because if you succeed in defining the real Democratic party or the sensible left, they are history. So are Willis et al. That’s why they’re here constantly harassing you…actually, you should be flattered, you are a real threat to their attempt to hijack the Democratic party and take it over the cliff. The mantra at Kos is to character-assassinate you, Instapundit and other WOT supporters who otherwise define yourselves as social democrats.
As for the tired and historically inaccurate accusations of American empire causing ‘millions’ of deaths and thereby earning hatred as the worst promulgator of genocide? Please, give it a rest. Spain wiped out an entire continent of natives, Germany millions of Jews, Brits, Russians, French, etc. How about Africa? Holland, Portugal etc– directly and indirectly–with millions dead on that continent. How about Stalin? Pol Pot? Jeez, how about Napoleon and Caesar while we’re at it? Or maybe Sulaiman? The pharoahs? Where’s the cutoff point for blame?

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Armando on Churchill, btw:“Ward Churchill – I found his statements offensive and really unacceptable. Was there a point underlying Churchill’s statements? Perhaps. But how seriously am I supposed to take a guy who says what he said? I think the lambasting he has taken well deserved. Should he lose his job? Well that’s a legal question.”
I know you haters on the Right have a difficult time reading past the headlines, but put in more than the required 10% effort every once in a while and give credit where credit’s due.
That being said, WTF Armando – why are you playing their game? Don’t you understand that we on the Left will never hate bloodthirsty dictators like Saddam and love freedom as much as the Right does. Our milquetoast “Me, too”‘s will only be thrown back in our face either as being insufficient or insincere like Kerry’s were. The only option is to hit back and hit back hard.
Ward Churchill’s right to speak must be defended as aggressively and absolutely as the Iranian bloggers, or freedom of expression means nothing. Is that so hard to figure out? If you don’t like what the man has to say, don’t listen to him, or better yet, engage him and his theories in the marketplace of ideas.
How is it that conservatives forget all about Adam Smith when some backwater professor raises their hackles, while they’re willing to put their parents and grandparents’ retirement all on the craps table of private investment?
If every nation’s history is equally bloody, then why do we in particular recoil from teaching the bad with the good? Other nations have been unafraid to own up to the more sordid episodes of their pasts and are all the better for it. Do really want to encourage other countries to selectively remember their histories? Should France forget Vichy? Should Turkey forget the Armenians? Should Japan forget Pearl Harbor and the Rape of Nanking?
As a history graduate student I am absolutely horrified when my fellow Americans say shit like this:“It’s not that I’m “uncomfortable” when someone brings up that “fact”…its that I’m friggin’ bored with it. OOOooo… Americans did naughty things in their past! Bring out the hairshirts and lets all indulge in a few rounds of self-flagellation!”
It’s not about self-flagellation, you ninny – it’s about self-knowledge. And American history (when properly taught) can be many things, but it’s never, ever boring.
I happen to love this country and what it stands for, which includes defending both Ward Churchill and Anne Coulter’s time at the microphone. Bill Maher should be commended for being unafraid to belly up to Churchill’s lunacy and try and dissect it for the benefit of a public who has thus far only encountered the controversy in sound bites and Jarvis-esque fisking.
People who don’t “get” the point of doing something like this don’t “get” America, period.

Just an observer

Oliver Logic 101:
Glenn links to Jeff;
Glenn is a Libertarian Republican;
Jeff is a TRAITOR!!@@#1!!!
Sometimes Jeff agrees with Republicans;
George Bush is a Republican;
Jeff is a TRAITOR!@!@@!#!@#
Awwww who cares its all ChimpyMcBushhitlerHaliburtons fault!!!!!*
*and Brit Hume!

http://technicalities.mu.nu Teresa

Excellent job Jeff. You have a terrific speaking voice. I don’t watch television, which means I haven’t ever seen Maher, nor (sadly it seems now) have I seen your broadcasts, so I wasn’t sure what to expect.
That would have been an extremely long written piece, so I’m glad you could put it in audio format. And last but not least, an all around great fisking.

miguel

Can we tolerate this kind of speech? Yes.
Talk about PC police, the right has become worse than any liberal ever imagined. “I don’t like what he said, fire him! fire him! fire him!”
hypocrites.

http://iraqiblogtechsupport.blogspot.com/ Tom Villars

Wow that was excellent!
I thought the length was just fine and for those that thought it was to long, there is always the fast forward button.

Sandy P

–I don’t like what he said, fire him! fire him! fire him!”–
He should be fired for fraud.
He lied.

Ben Kiernan

Mishu,
Whatever happened to Vietnam after the US nearly destroyed it in a decade long assault is hardly solely the fault of the survivors. When our country got rid of its colonial oppressors we had forced labor for almost the next 100 years and Britain didn’t leave this country in nearly as devastated as the US left Vietnam. The only thing the protestors of the US invasion of Vietnam have to be ashamed of is that they didn’t start sooner.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Talk about PC police, the right has become worse than any liberal ever imagined. “I don’t like what he said, fire him! fire him! fire him!”
Bingo. How the average conservative lives with such a daily dose of cognitive dissonance is a miracle of evolution (which they also disavow, natch):
Falwell good, Churchill bad. Go forth and spread the news!

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Meanwhile Jeff, I see you’ve practically fallen over yourself (not!) to cover this story about journalists in the crosshairs:Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has said she cannot accept US troops accidentally fired on her car after her kidnappers freed her in Baghdad.Ms Sgrena told the BBC Americans guarding Baghdad airport might not have been informed about her arrival, but their actions could not be excused.

Michael

Jeff: As a moderate Democrat, I wish to expose and root out the radical left that has been poisoning our party and losing elections for us.
Oliver: Glenn likes to link to you. Waah!

http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com Ernest Brown

Jersey Exile,
Sgrena is an anti-American moonbat of long standing. If the soldiers greeted her with roses, she would have accused them of trying to prick her fingers with thorns.

http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com Ernest Brown

Michael,
What can you expect from someone that prostitutes his integrity to work for a known & admitted pathological liar and an evil, exploitative and self-hating billionaire?

richard mcenroe

Jersey Exile

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Ernest,
So having anti-American views excuses the actions of trigger happy soldiers? You must be a joy with kids and small animals.
Note that I didn’t say anything about the merits of Ms. Sgrena’s accusations, merely that she made them and that Jeff (X-wing Media Gadfly, where X is the opposite of your political beliefs) has thus far failed to even mention the incident.
Kat is still foaming at the mouth about Theo van Gogh – I guess Italian agent Nicola Calipari valiantly taking a bullet to the head to protect an innocent journalist doesn’t rate up there along with Muslim-baiting filmmakers*.
* Not that van Gogh’s murder was in any way justified. It was an act of senseless brutality, as was this shooting.

richard mcenroe

Oliver

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Richard,
Churchill bad. Churchill employee of State, which guarantees freedom of speech (unlike private universities). Can’t fire Churchill. Sneaky Churchill.
I didn’t say the U.S. wanted Sgrena dead, but it sounds like they sure didn’t bother to check who was in the car they took upon themselves to spray with hot lead.

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

Jersey Exile
There’s a passive-aggressive tactic in dysfunctional relationships where one partner, in order to dominate/control the other, catelogues grievances, large and small, then “attacks” the partner with them anytime the partner is being happy, good and successful.
The Left, beit represented by Churchill, ANSWER, NION, et al, is the p/a dsyfunctional partner in America. The US is attacked on 9/11 – the Left replies “it was bad … BUT” and then goes on to list every “grievance”, real and imagined, from Columbus’ landfall to “what do you expect when we support Je….er Israel?”
You are right, American history is not boring. But the “Americans are greedy, soul-sucking bastards who rape the angelic indigenous peoples of the world” style of Social Studies promulgated by the likes of fraud Churchill IS boring (and intellectually insulting).
No one here is saying Churchill doesn’t have a right to speak his mind. But “academic freedom” is NOT “freedom of speech” (would you support the free speech right of a professor who taught blacks are racially inferior to whites?)…especially when one gets his position through fraud and engages in plagarism and copyright theft.

Armando

Jersey Exile:
Churchill jhas his lawyer to defend his job. Doesn’t need me.
As for his right to sdpeak, well who’s stopping him?
Finally, I am playing nobody’s game. Not the Right’s and not yours.
Churchill’s statements were offensive and repugnant.
So are Coulter’s, Gibbon’s, Hinderaker’s, Hewitt’s etc.
That’s the difference between me and Jeff – I can see bad in the Right as well as in the Left – Jeff only sees it in the Left.

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

Jersey
Looks like with Sgrena spinning into fantasyland that her “version” will only be accepted by those see Americans as the root of all ills in the world.
American soldiers “sprayed” her car with 300-500 bullets and people survived? Yeah, right, sure, uh huh. and the WTC was a Mossad plot.

mishu

Ben Kiernan, I’ll take it that you don’t subscribe to Ward Churchill’s line of reasoning. Am I correct? Would you agree that some guy sitting in front of a computer terminal trading Ginnie Mae’s is not a little eichman as well?

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

Armando
Out of curiousity, just what statement has Hugh Hewitt made that you categorize as “offensive and repugnant?”

Well done–is there any chance of sending copies to the two moonbats, Maher and Churchill.

richard mcenroe

Jersey Exile

Gregg

I don’t understand the need for a podcast of a blog post. What does it add, other than the ability to hear one’s own voice?

richard mcenroe

Jersey Exile

http://futuremd.blogspot.com/ Victoria

I couldn’t agree more with Darleen if I tried, and for that, I’m glad I scrolled down and read all 59 posts.
I’m just listening to the podcast now, and I see I’m not the only one who had never been mano-a-mano with the medium (pace Adam Curry).
I also had seen Maher hosting Churchill in his programme the night it broadcasted, but had to turn my head away from the television — not, contrary to what some progressives may infer, because I was upset by the anti-American overtones, but because Churchill reminds me of a SLEW of professors I have had to deal with, and continue to do so in MEDICAL SCHOOL (hardly the preserve of the Social Scientists) today.
And if you saw the interview, you’ll know what I mean.
Ward Churchill had this far-off look on his face that embarrassed me. The kind of embarrassment you get when you are listening to a radio call-in show, and you cringe and have to turn the volume down because it’s so uncomfortable to continue.
I got the impression that Professor Churchill was not happy that Bill Maher went FAR ENOUGH for his taste in condemning the US, and that’s the difference between a critic of the US (as Maher is) and the lunatic moonbat fringe of America-haters whose very name of America invokes a knee-jerk response of “here is everything that is CRIMINAL about this country” to even the simplest dialogue about any aspect of American history.
But fear not, that generation of Ward Churchills is aging, and we, the Gen X’ers and the Millenials, are coming. And I promise you this though:
Should I ever become a Medical School professor, I will never berate my classroom about my political beliefs.
Not only is it self-obsessive and batty. It’s boring.
Cheers,
Victoria

richard mcenroe

Gregg

http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com Ernest Brown

Jersey Exile,
“So having anti-American views excuses the actions of trigger happy soldiers? You must be a joy with kids and small animals.”
Wow, what a lying distortion of what I said! My point is obvious, she’s anti-American and will put the worst construction on this incident, just like you.
“Kat is still foaming at the mouth about Theo van Gogh – I guess Italian agent Nicola Calipari valiantly taking a bullet to the head to protect an innocent journalist doesn’t rate up there along with Muslim-baiting filmmakers*.
* Not that van Gogh’s murder was in any way justified. It was an act of senseless brutality, as was this shooting.”
Your filthy anti-humanistic tu quoques disgust every decent individual who reads them. Comparing the deliberately brutal and PREMEDITATED torture-murder of an avant-garde film-maker with an accidental shooting is just the sort of loathsome filth that Jeff so correctly condemns.
Thanks for proving his point. (your little asterisked addendum demonstrates your bad faith)

Kat

What the F are you ranting about? I never mentioned Theo Van Gogh in any post. Are all you moonbats nuts?

Whew. Is it just me or it getting awfully hot here?
I think everyone needs to take a nice cool shower and maybe come back with some fresh clothing and a clearer, cooler head?
Don’t want to sound like a pedantic arrogant jerk, but the tu quoque arguments only get you so far. Eventually, one will have to put forward a positive message or thought.
SMG

Jeremy

Jersey Exile:
“I didn’t say the U.S. wanted Sgrena dead, but it sounds like they sure didn’t bother to check who was in the car they took upon themselves to spray with hot lead.”
Very charitable of you to purport not to buy into a laughably absurd conspiracy theory featuring the “U.S.” as ertswhile villain. I mean, people, let’s imagine how that one would’ve played out from a purely logistical perspective: with everything else going in the Iraq theater, the CIA learns that Sregna has been released. Top U.S. commanders are immediately notified thereby setting the wheels of this murderous plot in motion. Within hours (hell, minutes) the orders have made their all the way down the chain-of-command to the lowly grunts manning some highway checkpoint: “APB. Obscure Italian journalist just freed from insurgent captivity. Shoot on sight.”
Now when I heard of the shooting, I was disgusted, but on the basis of the facts presently known see no basis for concluding that it was anything other than a tragic accident. I don’t see how you can smear as “trigger happy,” soldiers who are manning a checkpoint in an area that has been plagued by vehicle-borne IEDs when they open fire on a car that is speeding towards them, after they’ve signaled the car to stop and fired warning warning shots.
How does one “bother to check” who’s in the car under these circumstances? Wait until it barrels into the checkpoint and runs you over? How is checking the occupants identity even realistic/relevant under these circumstances, when the primary threat one is arrayed against is suicide car bombing? Does one wait, hoping that the car will stop driving erratically and that the driver will then present license, registration and special suicide bomber ID card before blowing up?

SteveMG

Jeff:
Interesting podcast. Something new, different.
One of the more instructive aspects of “fisking” occurs when the “fisker” links his/her comments to original source materials. Instead of just taking the opinion of the commenter as he dissects an article/essay, the commentator provides hot links to primary sources where the reader can check on the accuracy/veracity of the comments made.
Technological limitations notwithstanding, it would be great to hear you challenge a point made by Maher/Churchill and then a link pops up to a source buttressing your argument. The reader/listener pauses the podcast, goes to the link and reads the source cited.
Or, less cumbersome, after you create your podcast, you provide a set of links to sources upon which you made your judgments/comments.
Thanks for the blog. And for putting up with sometimes crazy posters. I’m as guilty as anyone.
SMG

http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com Ernest Brown

Jeremy,
“How does one “bother to check” who’s in the car under these circumstances? Wait until it barrels into the checkpoint and runs you over? How is checking the occupants identity even realistic/relevant under these circumstances, when the primary threat one is arrayed against is suicide car bombing? Does one wait, hoping that the car will stop driving erratically and that the driver will then present license, registration and special suicide bomber ID card before blowing up?”
Why, you use Jersey Devil’s magical Italian Communist Journalist-detecting Pixie Dust (TM-applied for), of course!

http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com Ernest Brown

Ex-Lib over at Rantburg makes some good points:
“#1: She works for a COMMUNIST newspaper. That juts about explains everything.
#2: And they’re rich Commies, evidently, to be able to pay $10 million for her sorry ass.
#3: She certainly is quick to use the situation to bolster her own “credibility” and deflect attention from questions regarding what she (did, in fact) learn at the hands of the terrorists. And she gets all that by blaming US soldiers for doing their duty. Lucky her.
#4: The liberal Italian press is even more outwardly agenda-oriented than our own beloved MSM, and they want to get rid of their prime minister, in order to further their Communist agenda. This is a big load of hype, designed to do just that.
#5: Like all Communists tend to do, she is playing on cultural emotionality , when she suggests that a big, bad “plot” was enacted by the US to kill her. (Right–we consider her SO dangerous, cuz’ she’s SO important, don’t ya know . . . )
#6: Guess she got a pretty great “pay off.” She can tell fake stories impugning the US, and get some mileage out of that, she can capitalize on her negotiator’s death and use it to further impugn the US, and she can be certain the funds she so generously provided the terrorists (or, Arab gangsters, as Classical Liberal pointed out) will be used to kill US forces and Iraqi freedom fighters. She must be really, really proud of herself.”http://www.rantburg.com/Default.asp?TINDEX=2&D=3/6/2005#58187

Ben Kiernan

“Would you agree that some guy sitting in front of a computer terminal trading Ginnie Mae’s is not a little eichman as well?”
I would agree 100%.

richard mcenroe

Gregg

richard mcenroe

Gregg

http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

Armando: “That’s the difference between me and Jeff – I can see bad in the Right as well as in the Left – Jeff only sees it in the Left.”
No, Armando: you see bad in *all* the Right, and your claim to see bad on the Left is unconvincing.
Ann Coulter says that all Democrats stink; Al Franken says that all Republicans stink; Ward Churchill says that Americans who work jobs and happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time are equivalent to Nazi monsters.
Republicans make fun of washed-up pipsqueak Franken, but I doubt if you hear many calls for Democrats to distance themselves from him. I need not condemn nor wildly support Coulter, just as JJ need not condemn nor wildly support Franken. They are just mouthy cheerleaders for either side.
You’re fine with your Frankens; it is your support of the Churchills that leave you open to charges like Coulter’s.
And it cannot be stressed enough; if you weren’t trying to support and defend Churchill while condemning him out of the other side of your mouth, there would barely be a discussion here.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Oh my, looks like I’ve really kicked the hornet’s nest this time…
Darleen: I’m not saying that Ward Churchill has an absolute right to airtime, but that once he gets there, it’s downright un-American to punish him merely for expressing his views. Surely if what he has to say is ludricrous people will either tune him out or engage his ideas to discredit or denounce them. I agree that people who see the world this way make lousy teachers, but no one is forcing students to take this guy’s courses (see MARKET, FREE).
Armando: Churchill will be used to smear the Left whether we defend his right to heterodox political views or not. The Right only gets to milk this cow because we let them. Sorry I jumped on you last week, btw.
Darleen (again): Did special agent Nicola Calipari die from an imaginary bullet then?
Richard: If Churchill has committed fraud, that is of course a completely separate issue.
Ernest: I abhor all unnecessary bloodshed. That’s about as opposite to antihumanism as anyone can get. You made the callous remark that suggested that people whom you label “moonbats” dodn’t deserve our sympathy when killed at shot at, not me. As for van Gogh, it chilled me to the marrow to read about what happened to him, and I think it was disgusting and ball-less of the Academy not to honor or even mention him last weekend at the Awards. I wasn’t equating his murder to agent Calipari’s death, but the coverage of both events both here and elswhere. Apples and oranges, my friend.
p.s., Tu quoque!
Kat: I apologize. I believe Eileen has been the one going on about van Gogh in the commentaries. I was out of line to use your name without double-checking.
Jeremy: The American military’s recklessness in this regard is a matter of public record, not partisan spin, with accidental shooting so routine now that we only hear about it when a high-profile incident like this happens. Sorry but you’re going to have to try a lot harder than that if you want me to believe otherwise. Note I said “recklessness” and not “malice”.
Ernest (again): We’re the most elite fighting force in the world. Our soldiers should be able to tell the difference between an Italian journalist and her protectors and a suicide bomber, your offensive attempt at humor over an innocent man’s death notwithstanding. I do rather like the Jersey Devil moniker, though…

http://www.talesofawanderingmind.blogspot.com David

Armando,
Tell me something Coulter said that even begins to compare with Churchill’s comments. This I gotta hear.

Donna V.

Sgrena’s story is absurd on it’s face. If the Americans fired “300-400” rounds into the car, Sgrena and Co. would look like Swiss cheese. Plus, what was she doing -sitting there counting rounds? The Americans supposedly directed all this firepower to kill an obscure Italian journalist who writes for a Commie paper nobody stateside has ever heard of? Good going Sgrena!
She gets to smear U.S. forces and vastly inflate her own importance at the same time.
Of course, exactly the same people who had the vapors over the Jenin “massacre” (remember that? Lo, the Palestinian bodies were piled up to the sky – oh, no, wait, they weren’t, were they? Nevermind.) are going to run with this one. Truth be damned, it’s what they want to believe.
Jersey Exile, you say you love America, and I’ll take your word for it. But if that’s the case, why are you and others on the left so willing to instantly accept as gospel each and every bit of news that makes us look bad? (Just answer the question, please. Don’t play the usual Lefty game of “I know I am, but what are you?” I am not somebody who believes Bush, America and Americans are beyond criticism so don’t drag out that strawman.)
Just curious. Is it guilt, masochism, or a delicious feeling of superiority? “I’m so much smarter than the red-state sheeple who don’t know the ‘real’ truth about their country? ”

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

The American military’s recklessness in this regard is a matter of public record
Would that be the public record according to Eason Jordan?

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

BTW Jersey Exile
take a gander the picture of of the car Sgrena claims was “riddled” with 300-400 bullets
I’d say we send those crack American troops home for retraining if they can aim 400 bullets at a ::ahem:: “slow moving vehicle” and MISS, including the WINDSHIELD.
IMHO it speaks volumes about people who continue to take Sgrena’s story over American troops’ story.

Kat

I read that also, Donna V, and if they fired 300 to 400 rounds, they are really bad shots.http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/sgrena-car.jpg
Jersey-apology accepted. Though comparing an accident to a planned beheading is just giving terrorists excuses. I feel very badly for the guy who was killed and badly for the American troops. No American will be celebrating in the streets, giving out candy and praising God because of this tragedy.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Donna V.,
Is special agent Calipari dead or isn’t he?
As an American of Italian ancestry my heart goes out to the death of Mr. Calipari. I don’t believe that Ms. Sregna was deliberately targeted as she claims and some insinuate, merely that it was a tragedy that could and should have avoided. I also found it curious that Jeff has chosen not to blog about the incident, especially since he styles himself an expert on these sorts of things (see JORDAN, EASON).
If that’s anti-American, well then I guess you’ll have to color me guilty as charged.
p.s. 300-400 rounds could easily have been fired. The best way to verify Ms. Sregna’s account would be to get a look at the car they were driving in. Surely someone snapped a picture of it…

Donna V.

Here’s an AP picture of the car Sgrena was in when the terrible Yanks sprayed her and her friends with “300 to 400” rounds:http://www.zombietime.com/sgrena_car_via_AP.jpg
There isn’t even 1 bullethole in the windshield. The car I owned in college was in worse shape than this one.
Damn, what great shots our guys are! They’re able to fire 300-400 rounds into a car through open windows without busting the windshield. Although all that firepower somehow didn’t kill everyone in the car, so I have to wonder about the quality of the ammo our troops are using. Are they being issued bullets made out of marshmallows?

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Damn, what great shots our guys are! They’re able to fire 300-400 rounds into a car through open windows without busting the windshield. Although all that firepower somehow didn’t kill everyone in the car, so I have to wonder about the quality of the ammo our troops are using. Are they being issued bullets made out of marshmallows?
Cute. Even Ms. Sregna’s account claims that the soldiers targeted the engine block, so that’s actually what a shot-up car would look like in the front. Kudos to our boys for not busting the windshield, but nevertheless someone did manage to hit agent Calipari in the head, unless his death is part of the Leftist conspiracy to make the occupation look bad.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Kat,No American will be celebrating in the streets, giving out candy and praising God because of this tragedy.
On this point you and I are in total agreement. I am not some moral relativist who is not going to call the Muslim world on its insistence and glorification of barbaric practices.
It is for that reason that I criticize the United States when it seems to cross the line, so that we are not seduced into the logic fighting barbarism with barbarism (a la Ann Coulter). Is that such a horrible thing?

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

Even Ms. Sregna’s account claims that the soldiers targeted the engine block
Whoa..she’s changing her story? And here I’ve been reading HER claims that SHE was deliberately targeted …
You know, evil Bu$Hitler out to rubout the noble and sainted Sgrena, champion of the poor oppressed proletariats everywhere …
PS..at this point of Sgrena & Communist party disinformation on the incident, I won’t believe the “rescuer” is dead of a bullet wound (rather than the car crash subsequent to their trying to blow the checkpoint) until official autopsy results.
And even THEN I’ll wonder depending on who is doing the autopsy.

http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog Darleen

AND look closely at the front of the car again
for 300-400 bullets aimed at the engine block (and when DID Sgrena have time to count ’em?) they remarkablely missed the headlights, too…And the license plate.
Must be those KKKarlRovian magic bullets.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

PS..at this point of Sgrena & Communist party disinformation on the incident, I won’t believe the “rescuer” is dead of a bullet wound (rather than the car crash subsequent to their trying to blow the checkpoint) until official autopsy results.
I was wondering how long it would be before someone said something goofy like that. So now our allies the Italians are all a bunch of liars? The Italian intelligence agency has already disputed Ms. Sregna’s claim that the car was deliberately targeted because of her political views – why then would they cover up the true cause of agent Calipari’s death?

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Darleen,
So whom did the Italians bury then?

Jeremy

Jersey:
I fully appreciate the distinction between “recklessness” and “malice.” For those uninitiated in Anglo-American legal terms terms of art: in general, “recklessness” (consciously disregarding a known risk) is the minimum state of mind/level of criminal intent necessary to sustain a manslaughter conviction, whereas “malice” (deliberately acting with the specific intent to kill wrongfully) is the stuff of first-degree murder convictions.
With that distinction in mind, Jersey, you have still failed to support the accusation that the U.S. soldiers who fired on Sregna’s car are guilty of manslaughter. Even accepting your questionable, sweeping premise that “the American military’s recklessness in this regard is a matter of public record,” it simply does not follow that these soldiers are culpable.
There have, unfortunately, been a siginificant number of checkpoint shootings in Iraq (which, by the way, further belies the ridiculous theory–which I do not ascribe to you–that Sregna was specifically targeted in some way). The fact that soldiers in some of the previous cases have acted recklessly, a point I accept, simply has no bearing on whether the soldiers in this case did. Surely you can accept the premise, which frankly strikes me as undeniable, that there can be shootings that are unjustified/reckless as well shootings that are justified. My point is that based on the facts we currently have about this case, it appears to fall on the justified side of the line. All you’ve offered in rebuttal is a highly prejudicial assertion that sounds in generalization/guilt by association (it’s a matter of public record that other U.S. soldiers have previously acted badly in similar circumstances, therefore, these soldiers are also culpable). You’ll have to do far better to convince me, or anyone else who chooses to approach this case with logic and a fair mind.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

p.s. Darleen,
About the danger of checkpoints in Iraq, here’s an article from that Commie Pinko rag the Christian Science Monitor:What Iraq’s checkpoints are like.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Jeremy,My point is that based on the facts we currently have about this case, it appears to fall on the justified side of the line.
How is that sweeping assertion is any more proveable than mine, exactly?
Besides, I didn’t bring up the Sregna incident in order to convict our soldiers of manslaughter, but to draw attention to the fact that there’s been a curious lack of interest in the story on Jeff’s part, when he was all over the Eason Jordan story like a fly on Hershey bar.

Donna V.

Jersey Exile: Are you really going to continue to maintain that you can fire 300-400 rounds at a car without hitting the windshield at least once?
I refer you to a photo of Bonnie and Clyde’s “death car”: http://texashideout.tripod.com/warrencar.html
Approximately 170 or so bullets were fired at B & C’s car and yet it’s in considerably worse shape than La Sgrena’s car. Not to mention the shape that B & C ended up in.
I, too, feel very bad about Calipari. I’m sorry he died trying to save that lying POS Sgrena.
Darlene wrote:PS..at this point of Sgrena & Communist party disinformation on the incident, I won’t believe the “rescuer” is dead of a bullet wound (rather than the car crash subsequent to their trying to blow the checkpoint) until official autopsy results.
I’m with you, Darlene. This story stinks to high heaven. I’m starting to wonder if the bullet that hit Calipari didn’t come from inside the car.unless his death is part of the Leftist conspiracy to make the occupation look bad.
That, of course, is absurd. Everyone knows Communists would never, ever kill anyone for their own political ends, would they?

http://www.shanksvillememorial.com furious

To whomever tried to defend the “your brother is Ted Kaszinski” analogy…sorry, but it falls flat thus:
Ted Kaszinksi’s own brother actually turned him in to the FBI after recognizing his writings. Meaning we air our own dirty laundry mostly for our own good, and the rest of the world gets to see it, as well.
Unless Mr. Maher was trying to make some other point, but I don’t think he was.
–furious

Are you really going to continue to maintain that you can fire 300-400 rounds at a car without hitting the windshield at least once?
Are you impugning our soldiers’ marksmanship? That’s almost more objectionable than taking them to task for being trigger-happy.I refer you to a photo of Bonnie and Clyde’s “death car”: http://texashideout.tripod.com/warrencar.html
Approximately 170 or so bullets were fired at B & C’s car and yet it’s in considerably worse shape than La Sgrena’s car. Not to mention the shape that B & C ended up in.
Bonnie and Clyde were shot at with considerably inferior firearms as well. Big, big difference between 1930’s police sidearms and standard military issue for 2005.

JRK

The kidnappers extorted $10 million from the Communist newspaper and her own agreement to continue to bash the US and the Italian government. Her lying complaints about the US are about as reliable as her account of her ‘kidnapping.’ Real Islamic terrorists don’t negotiate for cash–no one gets out alive. Unless they’re friendlies. She’s now just continuing her life work slandering the US.
She’s been proven a liar in the first part: 400 bullet rounds. The car is proof that she’s fabricated this account. (What impartial person would ever believe that a ‘captive’ for a month, disoriented she says, counts the rounds? Who’d believe she even knows how to count rounds? Heck, I was a soldier and I couldn’t do it.)
Pants on fire.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

That, of course, is absurd. Everyone knows Communists would never, ever kill anyone for their own political ends, would they?
Hilarious! You should start your own blog.

Jeremy

Jersey,
If you didn’t mean to accuse the soldiers of manslaughter, then you shouldn’t have charged them with “recklessly” killing the Italian agent. The language one chooses to use make a point often conveys a very specific meaning (intended or not), so its best to be circumspect when it comes to leveling such serious charges against people.
“My point is that based on the facts we currently have about this case, it appears to fall on the justified side of the line.”
First of all, my assertion is limited to this specific case, whereas yours ecncompasses the universe of checkpoint shootings, past, present and future. By definition, that makes yours more sweeping. Moreover, in one of my posts above, I laid out the factual basis for my assertion: (1) speeding car; (2) does not respond to signals to stop; (3) does not respond to warning shots; (4) ever present threat of suicide car bombings.
What is the basis for your assertion that this shooting was unjustified? Or do you simply never believe that a checkpoint shooting would be justified unless the soldiers allowed the suspicious car to get close enough to blow up and kill them first? That would strike me as an extremely unreasonable view of what constitutes legitimate self-defense.

John in Tokyo

It’s funny but I feel like for 2 years I’ve been listening to lefties like Howard Dean and Ted Kennedy fulminate about how Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11!!
But Maher is saying loud and clear that we have to look at the first Gulf War and the decade of sanctions and containment to understand why 9/11 happened. This is the only area where I agree with Maher. Of course Maher would absolve Saddam in favor of blaming the U.S. for all of the suffering in Iraq but at least he is acknowledging that Iraq had everything to do with 9/11. If you still don’t believe that, read Bin Laden’s original Fatwa against the U.S.
Jeff, I wish you had noticed this and mentioned it in your fisking. But I hate to nitpick. This was a great idea and considering it was a first, I think the style and execution were great.

Gregg

Open question: does saying the U.S. engaged in activities that might have provoked an act like 9/11 mean that one believes the U.S. “deserved” 9/11?

You beat me to it, Kat. The caption which accompanied the pictures reads as follows:
“‘An Iraqi driver stands near his damaged vehicle at the site of the kidnapping of an Italian journalist outside al-Nahrain University in central Baghdad, February 4, 2005. Giuliana Sgrena was snatched from the street as she conducted interviews near the university, police sources and diplomats said. Gunmen pulled up alongside her vehicle, forced her driver and an Iraqi journalist with her out of the vehicle at gunpoint and then drove off with Sgrena, the sources said. The driver said that the gunmen hit his car as they were rushing away from the scene following the kidnapping.'”

Eileen

Jersey Exile says:
“Kat: I apologize. I believe Eileen has been the one going on about van Gogh in the commentaries. I was out of line to use your name without double-checking.”
Wrong again. I’ve never typed his name, including now. Cut and paste your words..

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

If you didn’t mean to accuse the soldiers of manslaughter, then you shouldn’t have charged them with “recklessly” killing the Italian agent. The language one chooses to use make a point often conveys a very specific meaning (intended or not), so its best to be circumspect when it comes to leveling such serious charges against people.
Okay, then let’s just call them paranoid and trigger-happy. Deal?Or do you simply never believe that a checkpoint shooting would be justified unless the soldiers allowed the suspicious car to get close enough to blow up and kill them first? That would strike me as an extremely unreasonable view of what constitutes legitimate self-defense.
I’m glad to see that at least our Commander-in-Chief is taking this more seriously than you are:President Bush called Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi Friday night to express his regrets about the shootings and pledged a full investigation.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Eileen,
No way! Boy is my face red tonight.
CTRL-A / CTRL-C / CTRL-V
I just Googled “van Gogh” on BuzzMachine – you both turn up in the comment threads for when Jeff was discussing Theo’s murder, so maybe that’s why I made the association. Apologies nonetheless!

Chaunce Hayden

“Ted Kaszinksi’s own brother actually turned him in to the FBI after recognizing his writings. Meaning we air our own dirty laundry mostly for our own good, and the rest of the world gets to see it, as well.
Unless Mr. Maher was trying to make some other point, but I don’t think he was.”
Actually I wasn’t defending Maher’s analogy I was defending Maher’s words from being twisted by Jeff Jarvis into something he didn’t say or imply. My defense stands in that regard.
As to whether or not “Ted Kaczynski” was a good analogy, I think Maher was just trying to come up with a famous murderer in his example i.e. “telling American’s that their country has blood on its hands is a bit like telling someone their relative is famous murderer x.” Maher could have put in Charles Manson or John Wayne Gacy and it wouldn’t have altered the point he was making.

Donna V.

Jersey Exile: I had an uncle who collected classic cars and I can assure you it would be harder to shoot up a sturdy, solid 30’s era car than the el cheapo tin can on wheels Sgrena was in. And as Darlene noted, the headlights and license plate weren’t hit either. I know our troops are great marksmen and women, but nobody’s that damn good.It is for that reason that I criticize the United States when it seems to cross the line, so that we are not seduced into the logic fighting barbarism with barbarism (a la Ann Coulter). Is that such a horrible thing?
No, it isn’t at all. But what troubles me is how eager you seem to be to conclude that we’ve “crossed the line.”
I really don’t know what happened here. I have my suspicions but it’s conjecture at this point. What seems very clear is that La Sgrena is quite the liar.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Donna V.,
This is the internet. We all jump the gun here. For instance, that car we were all speculating about was the car Ms. Sgrena was abducted in, not the one shot at near the checkpoint, which explains the “mysterious” absence of bullet holes way better than your theory (Communist hoax) or mine (really good aim).
One hopes, though, that at the end of the day all our various partisan efforts cancel each other out in forming a rough approximation of the Truth™. Insofar as our colleagues on the Right keep us honest, I will never bear them ill-will, nor demand that their voices be prevented from joining in the conversation. Would that they felt the same about us!

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Besides, I married into a Greek family. They have “conversations” like this over the breakfast table, and yet miraculously no one gets hurt or disinvited to Easter or the next wedding…

EverKarl

I didn’t do my usual, as Jeff basically invited the trolls to vent here. But I did want to give Jeff kudos for turning a few people on to podcasting. And I agree with richard’s comment above that having the audio does help eliminate some questions of context.
Moreover the quality of the trolling was really pretty pathetic.

Eileen

Jersey Exile,
Although you ‘apologized nonetheless’ in the same breath you say I ‘turned up’ in comments related to posts which in some manner mentioned van Gogh, you failed to read what I wrote. Let’s see. In one I was wishing everyone here Merry Christmas…
I’ll pretend that I got an unqualified apology from you ‘nonetheless.’

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Eileen,
Forgive me. The apology was unqualified, even if it didn’t turn out sounding that way.

Eileen

Thank you. Accepted!

Donna V.

Jersey Exile: I am the “black sheep” in a strongly Democratic family (although my sister crossed over to the “Dark Side” in November), so I imagine my family gatherings resemble your “conversations” with your Greek in-laws.
And yet, my kid brother, who became so incensed at me during the ’04 campaign that he hung up the phone on me at least a dozen times, still asks me to babysit the kiddies and I still had him over to watch the Super Bowl. At the end of the day, your family is your family.
I tell people, “The guy is totally clueless about politics, but heck, he has a good heart” and you know, I suspect he says much the same thing about me,…,:-D

Jeremy

Jersey,
Yet again, you’ve failed to put forward any facts to justify your prejudicial assertion that the shooting was unjustified/reckless etc. Changing the accusation to “paranoid and trigger happy” would also seem to prejudge the results of the very investigation that you then proceed to endorse.
As those who’ve lost the real argument often do, you then fall back on the following straw man (with a nice touch of non-sequitur):
“I’m glad to see that at least our Commander-in-Chief is taking this more seriously than you are:
President Bush called Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi Friday night to express his regrets about the shootings and pledged a full investigation.”
The problems here, which are evident to anyone who reads our full exchange above, are that (1) I never suggested that the incident was not regrettable (in fact, I said it was “disgusting”); (2) I likewise never suggested that the incident should not be investigated–of course it should be–you were the one who initally jumped to the conclusion that the shooting was unjustified (without any factual basis for doing so). I challenged you to support that conclusion–after all the burden is usually on the one alleging misconduct to offer supporting evidence (fundamental fairness is a bitch, I know). I further postulated that IF the facts are as they currently appear to be (to reiterate: (1) speeding car; (2) does not respond to signals to stop; (3) does not respond to warning shots; (4) ever present threat of suicide car bombings), that the shooting would actually be justified.
I stand by that. Obviously, if the investigation reveals that some or all of (1) thru (4) are not the case, I’d be open to concluding that the shooting was reckless/unjustified. Therein lies the fundamental difference between the positions we’ve staked out. I’m willing to have an open mind at the end of day and let the facts inform my conclusion about this specific case. You’ve already judged these guys “paranoid and trigger happy.”

http://victorysoap.us/ Andrea Harris

Jeremy! The soldiers should have known — you know the Super-Sekret™ labs of the Chimpler’s Army put telepathy chips in the brains of all our soldiers!
Ouch — that tinfoil hat is tight.

Donna V.

The story keeps getting more and more confusing, as La Sgrena keeps updating her story almost by the minute. Now she says it didn’t happen at a checkpoint. She said they were at a checkpoint at first. Now she has tanks there instead of a patrol. She now claims “a hail of bullets” hit the car, when it was 300 to 400 rounds earlier. (And 300-400 rounds wouldn’t be a “hail” of bullets; more like a hurricane of bullets.)
Well, time will tell. What I would like to see is a photo of the car they were actually in at the time. It is interesting though, to watch this woman trotting out a different story just about every hour or so.

Reese

I’ve not read the comments above, so if this is repeated, sorry.
A blurb about the size of the file would be nice. Maybe some technosavvies know how to know ahead of time (like maybe Macs show a tag– probably a Wintel shortfall). I’m just a surfer.
I like the concept of the typical interpretation of what a Fisking is– a blogger “citizen journalist” publishing a ‘bite by ‘bite critique. Your version is audio, and format is talk-radio-like, like Rush Limbaugh saying, “Stop the tape! Stop the tape! Kennedy just accused the Bush administration of…” whatever. So you have the NEW internet/blog version of something not new. I don’t know if that’s as valuable as the effort you put in compared to the text version posted earlier.
Thanks,
Reese

http://www.blogforarizona.com mike bryan

There’s a strawman in the closer of your pod cast. You say that the idea that the people in the Trade Towers ‘brought it upon themselves’ is confused, as if this were a the whole of the position you are attacking. It may be what Ward implies, but it is not the important part of what he’s saying. The people in the Trade Towers did NOT bring it upon themselves, nor did they deserve to be harmed. The American system of imperialist exploitation of the entire last century brought it on them. They are only guilty of being small parts of a very big machine for extracting and extorting wealth from the rest of the world. They didn’t DESERVE to die. But there were reasons why those buildings were attacked that had EVERYTHING to do with what was being done every day inside those buildings. That’s the point. And it’s one you don’t address.

Kat

We keep talking about American imperialism, yet the only imperialism I see is that of Arabs trying to force sharia shit on the world. I guess if you think it’s OK to bomb the WTC, then it’s OK if I think Mecca and Medina should be nuked. But I’m sure you’re not trying to find excuses to condone terrorism any more than I want to return it to the terrorists. And meanwhile Darfur and Sudan become another muslim shithole, but is anyone bitching about that as much as they bitch about the US? Also the Pandits are being genocided–but who cares–US isn’t there to blame. For once, let’s make muslim fanatics accountable for their barbaric crimes worldwide in almost every country on earth, withourt finding excuses. USA did not make them kill millions of Hindus and Buddhists, but they likely deserved to die same as the 911 people ….for no good reason than a sick cult at work.http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/US-Islam-lg.jpg

http://poorschmuck.net Just Some Poor Schmuck

Ward Churchill and Bill Maher both agree that America is evil and deserves to be punished. They also agree that the people in the WTC were Americans engaged in commerce and thus deserved to be targeted.
Correct?
Ward Churchill and Bill Maher are also Americans and also engage in commerce (and do very well indeed). Following their logic, they deserve to be targeted because of America’s crimes.
So, Ward Churchill and Bill Maher think that they should be punished for American wrongdoing. We should oblige them.

http://victorysoap.us/ Andrea Harris

“The American system of imperialist exploitation of the entire last century brought it on them. They are only guilty of being small parts of a very big machine for extracting and extorting wealth from the rest of the world.”
Power to the people, man — power to the people! Well — except for the people who are working for the Man. No, not the man Man, the MAN Man. Uh, that is… hey, shut up you capitalist lackey yellow running dog!

http://victorysoap.us/ Andrea Harris

By the way, I tried to listen to your podcast, Jeff. I laughed at your “he could walk on his ass” joke (dammitwishI’dthoughtofthat) but then Bill Maher’s voice started.Click.
Maybe I could listen if they substituted another voice for Maher’s, something less irritating, like Daffy Duck’s or Barbra Streisand’s or something.

richard mcenroe

Andrea

Sean

Bill, short, ugly, smug and stupid is no way to go through life. I feel sorry for the next valley bimbo you boink.

Jack

The people who bombed the WTC were islamists who were striking a blow FOR Empire. They didn’t give a shit about the “wretched of the earth”. And to bring up the slave trade and–what, Dresden? Good lord, Maher’s an idiot. 9/11 was like a rorshack for every moron with a grievance.

speaking unofficially of course

A personal observation –
I see many on the left not understanding why some on the right question their patriotism. It may be because those who express views similar to Jersey Exile really put it in doubt. When other countries call into question the morality and integrity of actions of the US, they are all to happy to try to find reasons for justification, maybe through some “misguided” idea of civic duty (to enlighten the world of your countries wrongs). You know, if one of you, (the Olivers, Lukasiak, and Jersey Exiles), would attempt to come to the defense of your country in these matters, maybe some of us wouldn’t question your patriotism, but we don’t EVER see that. We see, “trigger happy” soldiers, American imperialism has brought these actions on us, yada yada yada… There’s a thing called loyalty, and you guys have much to learn about it.
Jersey Exile – If you think you know so much about checkpoint ops and rules of engagement, I would suggest that you come over and grab a rifle, pull duty at the checkpoint for 24hrs, get shot at in drive bys, get mortar’d at night, and listen to the IED’s and VBID’s detonating around the corner. Then when a vehicle doesn’t follow your instructions to stop, wait to see what happens and tell me how it goes. Tell me, if you have to fire your weapon, did you do it because you were trigger happy, or out of self-preservation. In case you haven’t noticed, Iraq is a dangerous place.

http://www.wireless-doc.com/wdblog/ Bill K.

Very entertaining piece, Jeff.
As for “He just turned the Bunsen burner under my blood up to ‘boil,'” I didn’t know that this chem lab staple had a “boil” setting. Also, I don’t see how this reference to science is applicable to Maher. And, what’s your blood doing in a beaker over a Bunsen burner?
I guess some metaphors don’t quite make it off the launching pad.
Note also, the “chickens coming home to roost” comment by Churchill referring to 9/11 is a duplication of what Malcolm X said about JFK’s assassination, and this caused him much trouble. Another wayward metaphor.
You have to stand back from the mike or use a screen; you’re popping your p’s when you speak. Otherwise, good production quality.

Ben Kiernan

“Ward Churchill and Bill Maher both agree that America is evil and deserves to be punished. They also agree that the people in the WTC were Americans engaged in commerce and thus deserved to be targeted.
Correct?”
Nope. Maher disagrees with Ward Churchill on all three points you mentioned.

Sean

I alway thought the “chickens coming home to roost” argument had much more ironic resonance as concerns Malcolm X’s demise than Kennedy’s.

http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

Speaking Unofficially of Course,It may be because those who express views similar to Jersey Exile really put it in doubt. When other countries call into question the morality and integrity of actions of the US, they are all to happy to try to find reasons for justification, maybe through some “misguided” idea of civic duty (to enlighten the world of your countries wrongs).
Um, no. It’s called self-knowledge. Being aware of the skeletons in our country’s closet is not the same as “blaming America”. We have been the engine of great good in the world and of course we should celebrate that. But if you are too much of coward to belly up to the darker moments of our country’s history then you are a piss-poor American citizen, because unlike many nations in the world we are a people who pride ourselves on actually learning from our mistakes.
That is the source of our strength and our innate goodness, but today’s insistence upon blind and unquestioning “loyalty” to America right or wrong is undermining that fundamental moral compass. If you think our nation is all about shutting your trap and doing what you’re told I pity you.If you think you know so much about checkpoint ops and rules of engagement, I would suggest that you come over and grab a rifle, pull duty at the checkpoint for 24hrs, get shot at in drive bys, get mortar’d at night, and listen to the IED’s and VBID’s detonating around the corner. Then when a vehicle doesn’t follow your instructions to stop, wait to see what happens and tell me how it goes. Tell me, if you have to fire your weapon, did you do it because you were trigger happy, or out of self-preservation. In case you haven’t noticed, Iraq is a dangerous place.
So is downtown Camden, New Jersey. But if the local PD started taking upon itself to shoot up cars full of innocent civilians in the ghetto because, hey, they might have been full of drug dealers or gang members armed to the teeth, there would be Hell to pay.
I respect an American soldier’s patriotism and honor his or her sacrifice on our behalf, but that falls well short of giving our troops carte blanche to kill civilians at a troubling rate in the name of “self-preservation”. Today’s Washington Post has an excellent article on the fact that our soldiers’ work is being complicated by a secretive and risk-averse Pentagon who keep the rules for engagement at checkpoints classified and attempt to circumvent our own laws regarding how to properly compensate innocent victims of checkpoint shootings.
See also the Christian Science Monitor’s article yesterday about what it’s like to live in a world with these checkpoints. Since you’re so keen on trying to tell me that “I don’t know what it’s like,” try wearing that shoe on the other foot and imagine yourself an innocent Iraqi civilian behind the wheel of a car approaching a bunch of American soldiers who are so at wit’s end that they’re ready to fire on you if you so much as blink at them wrong.
Remember, it’s their country – would you stand for this sort of shit back here in America?

ap0c

Where’s the transcript for us technological tards?

http://thinkingright.net Jim C

Mahr and Churchill deserve each other. I can’t believe the lengths those two idiots will go to to blame America.

http://ambientirony.mu.nu Pixy Misa

Jersey Fruitcake:p.s. 300-400 rounds could easily have been fired. The best way to verify Ms. Sregna’s account would be to get a look at the car they were driving in. Surely someone snapped a picture of it…
Well, no pictures have turned up so far. But why the hell would anyone have fired 300 to 400 rounds at it? If they had, either they were small-arms rounds and the car would have been riddled with holes and all the occupants dead, or it would have been machine-gun rounds from an armoured vehicle (as claimed) and the car would have been utterly destroyed.Cute. Even Ms. Sregna’s account claims that the soldiers targeted the engine block, so that’s actually what a shot-up car would look like in the front. Kudos to our boys for not busting the windshield, but nevertheless someone did manage to hit agent Calipari in the head, unless his death is part of the Leftist conspiracy to make the occupation look bad.
No, that’s not what a shot-up car would look like in the front. That’s a car that’s run into something. A shot-up car has holes in it.
Of course, we now know that the car in the photo was not the car involved in the incident. But what we also know is that you are willing to make obviously nonsensical claims in order to pursue your political ends.One hopes, though, that at the end of the day all our various partisan efforts cancel each other out in forming a rough approximation of the Truth

http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com Ernest Brown

“Being aware of the skeletons in our country’s closet is not the same as “blaming America”. We have been the engine of great good in the world and of course we should celebrate that. But if you are too much of coward to belly up to the darker moments of our country’s history then you are a piss-poor American citizen, because unlike many nations in the world we are a people who pride ourselves on actually learning from our mistakes.”
Oh, really? Then “belly up to” this:http://www.epinions.com/content_77812174468
There is a vast difference between rational discussion and honest criticism of the U.S. and/or the Bush Administration and the reflexive “Blame America First” nonsense that this incident has engendered.
For an example of the former, check out the last update here:http://instapundit.com/archives/021615.php

Rick Von Sloneker

Churchill’s whole point is an insulting non-sequitur.

http://victorysoap.us/ Andrea Harris

Ernest: no! You have evoked the dreaded Instabeast! Garlic must now be applied to all comment threads. Stand by for denunciations upon your head from the laypeople of the Church of the Holy Moonbat.

LT

Jersey Exile
when was the last time a car bomb went off in Camden?
I have read most of your posts, and dude, you are way way way out there. Your apples and oranges comparisons, and the twisting of words that others have said, make it clear that you that your arguments hold no weight.
Also, I have no idea what misinformation you are spreading about the lack of understanding and secretive rules of engagement. All of us over here are clear on that. And I can tell you from experience that you don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about, as I am currently in Iraq.
LT

LT

and from the post, I’d say that speaking unofficially has been there too, so if you listen you might learn a thing or two.
LT

http://closeddoorsdc.blogspot.com Michael

It of course comes as no suprise that Maher is a complete moron, a third-tier comedian who thinks his views have some kind of currency in the public debate. I am bewhildered that he his own television show — it would make more sense to have Drew Carey discussing economic policy (except that Drew Carey might be more informed on that subject that Maher is on anything). If Bill Maher were someone I met at a party, I would dismiss him as a poorly read, awkwardly grasping fool aping the most recent Daily Kos posting.
But that’s television, and I don’t expect much from the people who throw this stuff together. For every “Chapelle’s Show”, there are 10 vanilla reality-forensic-makeover-investigation sit coms.
What really shocked me was Ward Churchill. I read dozens of articles and blog posts about his 9/11 comments, and as outrageous as they are, by now they are not a suprise. But utterly unexpected was how incredibly stupid, inarticulate and, well, uninformed he is. He sounded like a wino at the bus station:

Myron Cohn

Churchill was in many respects correct in his remarks: We do have “blood on our hands.” 9/11 was “chickens coming home roost.” They didn’t “attack us because we’re free,” they attacked us because of our foreign policies. And, attacking the “Pentagon and the World Trade Center, with its offices of the CIA, FBI, DIA, USAID, etc., were legitimate military targets.”

http://engrm.com/ Alan Gutierrez

Pity this was your first Podcast, Jeff. It was impossible to listen to. Not, you. Just Maher and his guest. Trolls, really.
Look forward to future Podcasts, and seeing them inclosed in RSS.

Myron Cohn, addressing your points in order:
No we don’t. No it wasn’t. Yes they did. No they didn’t. No they aren’t.
I could refute you (and Churchill) at length and in depth, but that’s already been done. You are wrong; Churchill is wrong; and the both of you are are quite thoroughly vile human beings.

I love your point by point, Pixy Misa. Nice and succinct.
But Kat… I don’t know. Looks to me like a U.S. tank attack was involved after all.

Robert Kelly

“If Bill Maher were someone I met at a party, I would dismiss him as a poorly read, awkwardly grasping fool aping the most recent Daily Kos posting.”
As if you would ever be invited to a party…

pt sargent

Podcast is a wonderful idea and the execution in this case was excellent. It helps to hear the actual voice and words of the fools out there who live in the world of moral relativism and confusion. Would that those who live in this world could understand that where they are trying to lead us is chaos and ruin for the world.