I've got a perfect strategy to test how law-related personnel will view this issue: I just got a fee waiver from the Duke priority track, meaning a response within 10 days. I'm going to include a very detailed disclosure on this application just to test them.

I would never attend Duke, but I'd like to see (within 10 days) if they accept me or not in spite of a full disclosure. If they don't think it's a huge deal, I doubt C&F will either. If I get rejected from Duke with above-median numbers, then I obviously might have a problem, and I should consider emigration.

I don't think anyone here is concerned about you being admitted to law school in the U.S. At my med school, we admitted students that could never pass the C & F for the boards to practice medicine. It would be a good experiment though!

Also, you may think my reaction is a bit strong, but only cuz I'm trying to educate you about what that behavior supports. Your lack of remorse and excuses are a big turn off if you have to explain this at all. Just know, its not a religious thing either. I'm a militant atheist and don't need religious dogma to recognize this behavior as horrific. Its not about being an American prude either, as I'm not even American. Also, know that many feminists gravitate toward law, so it is plausible that you could be trying to explain this to someone much more offended by your attitude than me. You really ought to think about a plausible way of convincing people that you realized what you did was wrong and why you wouldn't do it again.

niederbomb wrote:I've got a perfect strategy to test how law-related personnel will view this issue: I just got a fee waiver from the Duke priority track, meaning a response within 10 days. I'm going to include a very detailed disclosure on this application just to test them.

I would never attend Duke, but I'd like to see (within 10 days) if they accept me or not in spite of a full disclosure. If they don't think it's a huge deal, I doubt C&F will either. If I get rejected from Duke with above-median numbers, then I obviously might have a problem, and I should consider emigration.

Please come back and tell us how this turns out. Also, in your detailed disclosure to Duke, I think you should try to work the word "hooker" in, just for effect.

As for my uninformed two cents:

The question is: "Have you ever been discharged from the Armed forces other than by honorable discharge?"

joebloe wrote:Why are you talking about Korea? OP's incident took place in Japan.

Why would a state bar be made up of uninformed (or uninformable) people?

I refuse to argue further on the merits of prostitution. You have your unswayable viewpoint, and I have mine.

Can you post the quote where he tells us that it took place in Japan? Others mentioned Korea and he referenced Seoul, so I assumed Korea.

I'm didn't say the admissions officials for the state bar are uninformable, but I doubt they would know the nuances of different types of discharge other than honorable/dishonorable and form an negative initial impression that could cost him admittance. How knows? Many they really care and really investigate this stuff. I hope so. This is why I am advising him to run this by the bar before committing him to debt by going to law school.

I resigned from the Armed Forces after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an overseas hostess bar in Japan. I purchased a bar girl’s day off on ******* contrary to unit regulations. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”

Please read about bar admission procedures before you make statements like the bolded. I have read about very very few cases where a bar has permanently denied an application, and almost all of those have been where the applicant willfully committed some form of fraud directly in connection with the path to becoming a lawyer. The few others I recall involve execution-style murders and Matthew Hale.

OP definitely needs to consult a lawyer, but I don't understand why he's throwing in the towel WRT practicing in the US, unless he actually doesn't want to practice in the US.

Well call me confused because he references Korea twice. Maybe he is a troll and can't keep is story straight?

niederbomb wrote:Here's a thought:

What if I noted in passing that I was dating this "bar girl"? That way, it doesn't sound quite as bad as if I was just an ordinary whoring American GI.

In the small towns up near the DMZ, there really aren't any other women (even GI's since it's an Infantry Division), we're rarely allowed to go to Seoul, and it's quite common for GI's to develop real relationships with these girls, rescue them from the establishments, and marry them.

niederbomb wrote:No, the girl was not underage. She was older than me by 1 year. It's illegal in Korea for anyone under the age of 19 to come in on an entertainment visa.

Obviously Japan isn't a 3rd world country and all of my other comments stand. If this did take place in Japan, thats all the more pathetic. There is no reason for an American man to pay for sex there. Having been there, I know and have observed that any foreign man walking down the street (especially white men) get propositioned by Japanese girls. I'm calling B.S. on that. Maybe OP can clarify, so we can stop debating this irrelevant point?

I resigned from the Army after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an off-limits establishment on October 17 2009, contrary to U.S. Forces XXX Reg. 27-5. In doing so, I violated the direct orders of the 2nd Infantry Division Commander. I did not break any laws; however, I resigned voluntarily in lieu of possible administrative action. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”

I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by my actions, I violated my professional obligations to obey my Commander's orders. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities. Since leaving the military, I have taken a job at a Chinese nonprofit organization where my conduct has been upright and exemplary as my letter of recommendation demonstrates.

niederbomb wrote:I've got a perfect strategy to test how law-related personnel will view this issue: I just got a fee waiver from the Duke priority track, meaning a response within 10 days. I'm going to include a very detailed disclosure on this application just to test them.

I would never attend Duke, but I'd like to see (within 10 days) if they accept me or not in spite of a full disclosure. If they don't think it's a huge deal, I doubt C&F will either. If I get rejected from Duke with above-median numbers, then I obviously might have a problem, and I should consider emigration.

The bar will review ALL of your applications, so that may bite you someday. Don't do it.

joebloe wrote:Why are you talking about Korea? OP's incident took place in Japan.

Why would a state bar be made up of uninformed (or uninformable) people?

I refuse to argue further on the merits of prostitution. You have your unswayable viewpoint, and I have mine.

Can you post the quote where he tells us that it took place in Japan? Others mentioned Korea and he referenced Seoul, so I assumed Korea.

I'm didn't say the admissions officials for the state bar are uninformable, but I doubt they would know the nuances of different types of discharge other than honorable/dishonorable and form an negative initial impression that could cost him admittance. How knows? Many they really care and really investigate this stuff. I hope so. This is why I am advising him to run this by the bar before committing him to debt by going to law school.

I resigned from the Armed Forces after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an overseas hostess bar in Japan. I purchased a bar girl’s day off on ******* contrary to unit regulations. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”

Please read about bar admission procedures before you make statements like the bolded. I have read about very very few cases where a bar has permanently denied an application, and almost all of those have been where the applicant willfully committed some form of fraud directly in connection with the path to becoming a lawyer. The few others I recall involve execution-style murders and Matthew Hale.

OP definitely needs to consult a lawyer, but I don't understand why he's throwing in the towel WRT practicing in the US, unless he actually doesn't want to practice in the US.

Well call me confused because he references Korea twice. Maybe he is a troll and can't keep is story straight?

niederbomb wrote:Here's a thought:

What if I noted in passing that I was dating this "bar girl"? That way, it doesn't sound quite as bad as if I was just an ordinary whoring American GI.

In the small towns up near the DMZ, there really aren't any other women (even GI's since it's an Infantry Division), we're rarely allowed to go to Seoul, and it's quite common for GI's to develop real relationships with these girls, rescue them from the establishments, and marry them.

niederbomb wrote:No, the girl was not underage. She was older than me by 1 year. It's illegal in Korea for anyone under the age of 19 to come in on an entertainment visa.

Obviously Japan isn't a 3rd world country and all of my other comments stand. If this did take place in Japan, thats all the more pathetic. There is no reason for an American man to pay for sex there. Having been there, I know and have observed that any foreign man walking down the street (especially white men) get propositioned by Japanese girls. I'm calling B.S. on that. Maybe OP can clarify, so we can stop debating this irrelevant point?

For the purposes of writing an addendum, it doesn't matter if it was Japan, Korea, the Philippines, or Iraq. I'm not keen to reveal my identity more than I already have (a lost cause at this point, I know).

One thing's for certain: there was a huge shortage of legitimate women in the location where I was stationed.

I resigned from the Army after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an off-limits establishment contrary to U.S. Forces Korea Reg. 27-5. In doing so, I violated the direct orders of the 2nd Infantry Division Commander. I did not break any laws; however, I resigned voluntarily in lieu of possible administrative action. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.” I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by my actions, I violated my professional obligations to obey my Commander's orders. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities.

VS this:

I resigned from the Armed Forces after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an overseas bar that my unit had placed off-limits for military personnel. I developed an unauthorized relationship with a bargirl and purchased her day off in October 2009 in contravention to unit regulations. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign voluntarily in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.” I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by visiting that hostess bar and paying fees there, I ran afoul of the ban on military personnel frequenting such establishments and thus violated my professional obligations. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities. Since leaving the military, I have taken a job at a Chinese nonprofit organization where my conduct has been upright and exemplary as my letter of recommendation demonstrates.

????

The second one goes to Duke.

I think both of them give that great vibe of, "I'm not sorry I did it, just sorry I got caught."

Also, a quick Google search on "bar fine" comes up with tons of signs posted in bars in Korea warning military personnell that what they are doing is against military law. So I think you have a hard sell in claiming it was just because your CO was a fundamentalist christian that you were punished.

I resigned from the Army after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an off-limits establishment contrary to U.S. Forces Korea Reg. 27-5. In doing so, I violated the direct orders of the 2nd Infantry Division Commander. I did not break any laws; however, I resigned voluntarily in lieu of possible administrative action. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.” I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by my actions, I violated my professional obligations to obey my Commander's orders. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities.

VS this:

I resigned from the Armed Forces after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an overseas bar that my unit had placed off-limits for military personnel. I developed an unauthorized relationship with a bargirl and purchased her day off in October 2009 in contravention to unit regulations. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign voluntarily in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.” I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by visiting that hostess bar and paying fees there, I ran afoul of the ban on military personnel frequenting such establishments and thus violated my professional obligations. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities. Since leaving the military, I have taken a job at a Chinese nonprofit organization where my conduct has been upright and exemplary as my letter of recommendation demonstrates.

????

The second one goes to Duke.

I think both of them give that great vibe of, "I'm not sorry I did it, just sorry I got caught."

Also, a quick Google search on "bar fine" comes up with tons of signs posted in bars in Korea warning military personnell that what they are doing is against military law. So I think you have a hard sell in claiming it was just because your CO was a fundamentalist christian that you were punished.

So what more do you suggest? I've revised this about 1000 times. Any idea for an admissions consultant I can use?

(Note: I give this advice without any comment to the nature of what you did. I neither condone nor condemn.)

You're giving too much info. The question is whether you've been discharged from the Armed Forces other than by honorable discharge. You then tell them about how you bought a hooker.

Why not: In (YEAR), I voluntarily resigned from the Armed Forces under a general discharge. My resignation was offered in lieu of administrative proceedings pending against me, in which it was alleged I disobeyed military orders concerning the patronizing of prohibited establishments. I now work for an international nonprofit organization specializing in (WHATEVER), and my specific duties include (WHATEVER). I learned a great deal from my military experience, and look forward to pursuing the study of law.

This way, they can accept, reject, or ask for more information. If they accept, you can save the hooker explanation for the bar (association - stay away from the other type.)

I think you've gotten all the help you're to get in this forum. Google a law admissions consultant and move on.

I will say that I think you have to disclose the nature of the rule you broke. Simply saying you attended a prohibited establishment is inadequate, in my opinion. The earlier draft I commended on was adequate. You cite the exact rule, so the committee is free to look it up if it so desires.

I'd ask the consultant whether you should provide a copy of the discharge (or whatever it is called) along with the addendum. Based on what I've skimmed in this thread the official document isn't that damning.

originalmutt wrote:I think you've gotten all the help you're to get in this forum. Google a law admissions consultant and move on.

I will say that I think you have to disclose the nature of the rule you broke. Simply saying you attended a prohibited establishment is inadequate, in my opinion. The earlier draft I commended on was adequate. You cite the exact rule, so the committee is free to look it up if it so desires.

I'd ask the consultant whether you should provide a copy of the discharge (or whatever it is called) along with the addendum. Based on what I've skimmed in this thread the official document isn't that damning.

I agree, consultant is needed from here.

I would disagree about citing the rule though. He resigned rather than face discipline. To me, this implies that no hearing took place, there will be no final disposition finding that he actually broke any rule, and disclosing it may be seen as a tacit admission. If no hearing took place, and he resigned in lieu, then why should he talk about something that he was not properly tried for?

Granted, I'm not an adcomm. I do however spend a fair portion of my work hours reviewing professional licensing applications where these types of things are disclosed. While details can be amusing, many times they are not necessary. What we usually look for is whether a denial of the application would hold up in court - in this case, since there was no admission of wrongdoing, he'd probably get a license.

And really, think long and hard before you say something along the lines of: "I didn't break any laws." Because, as I said earlier, you DID break a law. I have no idea how down in the nitty gritty C&F gets, but that could come back to bite you in the ass.

shoteka wrote:If you're not planning on fully disclosing the info you've already posted in this thread then you've already made a huge, huge mistake by posting this publicly. Sigh... It's already disclosed. Dumb. And honestly, what the hell man? You SHOULD be effing contrite. What you did was messed up.

Good to know there's someone else that thinks OP did something messed up. Why are we helping him strategize? Does anyone want to sit in class next to him?

shoteka wrote:If you're not planning on fully disclosing the info you've already posted in this thread then you've already made a huge, huge mistake by posting this publicly. Sigh... It's already disclosed. Dumb. And honestly, what the hell man? You SHOULD be effing contrite. What you did was messed up.

Good to know there's someone else that thinks OP did something messed up. Why are we helping him strategize? Does anyone want to sit in class next to him?

shoteka wrote:If you're not planning on fully disclosing the info you've already posted in this thread then you've already made a huge, huge mistake by posting this publicly. Sigh... It's already disclosed. Dumb. And honestly, what the hell man? You SHOULD be effing contrite. What you did was messed up.

Good to know there's someone else that thinks OP did something messed up. Why are we helping him strategize? Does anyone want to sit in class next to him?

I certainly don't. He was supposed to be representing the freedoms Americans hold dear and he is arguing the merits of buying a young girl's body from a slave owner? Jeez. As an officer, he knew what he was contributing to and set a poor example for other soldiers. And others ask how the hooker was??!?!

Prostitution is officially illegal in Korea. Just because Korean government overlooks such acts by American soldiers, it doesn't make what OP did legal. I guess he could argue that he paid the bar owner just so that he could go to movie with the girl or something, but come on. Also, he paid to have sex with a girl who was from another country and staying in Korea with "entertainer" visa. The visa is supposedly intended for performing artists, but the recruiters from sex industry probably helped her get the visa with bribery or deception and charged her large fees for it also. Did OP really think, after having been forewarned about the human trafficking issue, that the girl had the freedom to go back home anytime if she didn't like what she saw once she arrived in Korea?

shoteka wrote:If you're not planning on fully disclosing the info you've already posted in this thread then you've already made a huge, huge mistake by posting this publicly. Sigh... It's already disclosed. Dumb. And honestly, what the hell man? You SHOULD be effing contrite. What you did was messed up.

Good to know there's someone else that thinks OP did something messed up. Why are we helping him strategize? Does anyone want to sit in class next to him?

I certainly don't. He was supposed to be representing the freedoms Americans hold dear and he is arguing the merits of buying a young girl's body from a slave owner? Jeez. As an officer, he knew what he was contributing to and set a poor example for other soldiers. And others ask how the hooker was??!?!

How do you know the girl was underage, and how do you know she was a slave? That's gross speculation. I doubt this guy would have slept with an underage slave.

So are all you moralizers saying you've never done anything wrong before? C'mon folks, everyone makes mistakes. Isn't getting discharged from the military punishment enough? Are you saying he should he be punished for the rest of his life?

I'm not defending what he did. But, by the same token, I dont care for the grand standing going on here. Get an effing life.

Consult a lawyer in the States that specializes in bar admissions before you make such a big life choice. I cannot imagine how hiring a sex worker in a country like Japan would keep you from being admitted to the bar. I think some people are unduly pressing the panic button because they heard "human trafficking" and take general offense to the sex industry.

agree, they admitted a murderer here in Arizona. Attitudes are different around the world, and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to make money that way, I don't see how it's that different than staying in an unhappy marriage. The thing that is annoying about your attitude (in my opinion and maybe in the opinion of admins) is that you come off as super self righteous and arrogant which is not a trait that is likable. No sh*t everyone else has done bad stuff and no one is Jesus Christ, and clearly it's awful to blow up civilians, but that doesn't mean that what you do wrong is justified. Sorry to pull out the mom card but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Do I come across that way in the statement itself? Or just in other posts? It's hard to appear contrite when I ask for help on an addendum and get accused of "rape." But I think my addendum, i.e. what I submit to law schools, does appear contrite; do I need to make it sound more so?

I resigned from the Army after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an off-limits establishment on October 17 2009, contrary to U.S. Forces XXX Reg. 27-5. In doing so, I violated the direct orders of the 2nd Infantry Division Commander. I did not break any laws; however, I resigned voluntarily in lieu of possible administrative action. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”

I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by my actions, I violated my professional obligations to obey my Commander's orders. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities. Since leaving the military, I have taken a job at a Chinese nonprofit organization where my conduct has been upright and exemplary as my letter of recommendation demonstrates.

Sorry I think what I said was harsh, I don't know you and certainly am not judging you I'm far from perfect. To answer your question though, yes, you come off as a total jerk in the statement. As someone who doesn't know you like the admins that may be their reaction too. Can you contact the lady that does the Ivey Guide? when I was reading it she rewrote some statements very well

niederbomb wrote:I've got a perfect strategy to test how law-related personnel will view this issue: I just got a fee waiver from the Duke priority track, meaning a response within 10 days. I'm going to include a very detailed disclosure on this application just to test them.

I would never attend Duke, but I'd like to see (within 10 days) if they accept me or not in spite of a full disclosure. If they don't think it's a huge deal, I doubt C&F will either. If I get rejected from Duke with above-median numbers, then I obviously might have a problem, and I should consider emigration.