Lasers wrote:my worry about attending hastings is that if this gap continues to be as wide as it has been for the last two years, perception in regards to both of these schools will change, with davis being seen as clearly superior.

sigh...i was so excited to live in the city. i'm not making my decision until the end of the month, but instead of leaning towards hastings, i'm leaning towards davis now.

Re: Gap

is that perception based on reality?

how long has Indiana done well in the USNWR rankings?

certainly greater than 2 years.... and yet their employment outcomes still suck. (not even in top 50 of NLJ 250 placement... so less than 10%)...

How long has Georgia State not been ranked in the T50? And yet they still placed more in NLJ 250 than Georgia...

etc...

base decisions on actual numbers, otherwise you are speculating your future on the whims of US News and Weekly World Report of all magazines...

General Tso wrote:I'm actually with TLS poster "SBL" on this one. Unless you have a strong reason to be in SF, you should probably attend Davis. Hastings is something of a sinking ship.

god you're a wuss

if you have options and nothing to tie you to SF, why would you choose the lower ranked school? the difference in ranking (and probably employment prospects) between Hastings and Pepperdine/Loyola/USD seems to be shrinking as well. why pay all the extra money to attend Hastings? I wish I had attended USD. I don't need a high ranking school or a highly paid job to stroke my ego..I just need to feel like I made a smart financial decision in the school I chose to attend.

General Tso wrote:I'm actually with TLS poster "SBL" on this one. Unless you have a strong reason to be in SF, you should probably attend Davis. Hastings is something of a sinking ship.

god you're a wuss

if you have options and nothing to tie you to SF, why would you choose the lower ranked school? the difference in ranking (and probably employment prospects) between Hastings and Pepperdine/Loyola/USD seems to be shrinking as well. why pay all the extra money to attend Hastings? I wish I had attended USD. I don't need a high ranking school or a highly paid job to stroke my ego..I just need to feel like I made a smart financial decision in the school I chose to attend.

first, USNWR do not relate to actual employment outcomes, see above

second, if the difference in employment outcomes between Loyola/USD/Pepperdine are not significantly different than UCH then they are no different than UCD

third, you're a wuss for reasons independent of this discussion. What sinking ships? What rising ships? The employment trends have been as expected. The tech bubble burst and Northern California suffered... big surprise. SoCal has the better market right now, that's true, but none of that bears on the UCD/UCH debate. And yet you brought out the sinking ship metaphor... that's why you're a wuss.

General Tso wrote:I'm actually with TLS poster "SBL" on this one. Unless you have a strong reason to be in SF, you should probably attend Davis. Hastings is something of a sinking ship.

god you're a wuss

if you have options and nothing to tie you to SF, why would you choose the lower ranked school? the difference in ranking (and probably employment prospects) between Hastings and Pepperdine/Loyola/USD seems to be shrinking as well. why pay all the extra money to attend Hastings? I wish I had attended USD. I don't need a high ranking school or a highly paid job to stroke my ego..I just need to feel like I made a smart financial decision in the school I chose to attend.

first, USNWR do not relate to actual employment outcomes, see above

second, if the difference in employment outcomes between Loyola/USD/Pepperdine are not significantly different than UCH then they are no different than UCD

third, you're a wuss for reasons independent of this discussion. What sinking ships? What rising ships? The employment trends have been as expected. The tech bubble burst and Northern California suffered... big surprise. SoCal has the better market right now, that's true, but none of that bears on the UCD/UCH debate. And yet you brought out the sinking ship metaphor... that's why you're a wuss.

seriously, if it stays like this for 5 years or so it might be cause for concern, but for the three of us this doesn't really mean doodly. I can't imagine firms are going to be changing their GPA cutoffs because of 1 year of USNews juggling.

seriously, if it stays like this for 5 years or so it might be cause for concern, but for the three of us this doesn't really mean doodly. I can't imagine firms are going to be changing their GPA cutoffs because of 1 year of USNews juggling.

seriously, if it stays like this for 5 years or so it might be cause for concern, but for the three of us this doesn't really mean doodly. I can't imagine firms are going to be changing their GPA cutoffs because of 1 year of USNews juggling.

2 years isn't it?

#34 --> #28 ---> #23

Whereas Hastings is.... still 42?

Which of the USNWR criteria has changed at Davis over those three years? Answer: none of them, except employment and the "secret" criteria that doesn't get published. That's what makes people suspicious of its rapid ascent.

The only criteria which really matter are student quality and peer and practitioner reputations. And in those areas Davis is no better than most schools ranked down into the 30s and 40s.

seriously, if it stays like this for 5 years or so it might be cause for concern, but for the three of us this doesn't really mean doodly. I can't imagine firms are going to be changing their GPA cutoffs because of 1 year of USNews juggling.

2 years isn't it?

#34 --> #28 ---> #23

Whereas Hastings is.... still 42?

Which of the USNWR criteria has changed at Davis over those three years? Answer: none of them, except employment and the "secret" criteria that doesn't get published. That's what makes people suspicious of its rapid ascent.

The only criteria which really matter are student quality and peer and practitioner reputations. And in those areas Davis is no better than most schools ranked down into the 30s and 40s.

seriously, if it stays like this for 5 years or so it might be cause for concern, but for the three of us this doesn't really mean doodly. I can't imagine firms are going to be changing their GPA cutoffs because of 1 year of USNews juggling.

2 years isn't it?

#34 --> #28 ---> #23

Whereas Hastings is.... still 42?

Which of the USNWR criteria has changed at Davis over those three years? Answer: none of them, except employment and the "secret" criteria that doesn't get published. That's what makes people suspicious of its rapid ascent.

The only criteria which really matter are student quality and peer and practitioner reputations. And in those areas Davis is no better than most schools ranked down into the 30s and 40s.

you are so bitter.

Not really..I don't give a crap anymore. I chose the wrong school to attend, but it's not Davis that I should have chosen. It'd help the discussion if you focused your attention on the schools we are debating instead of on me.

Fudging employment numbers aside, from last year's ASD, Davis struck me as having a very solid admin in place who understand the importance of ranking and branding (school identity = small & supportive). Even this identity may not be quite what it seems; an obviously successful (and high strung) student mentioned during one of the career info sessions that grades are everything for Davis OCI, and this attitude naturally creates high stress for students interested in the top jobs. So it's not all fun and games at Davis either, but I do believe it does have more of a community feel by virtue of its smaller size, etc...

It'll be interesting to see what Hastings can do to respond, if anything. The new dean has formed some type of task-force to address the US News ranking slide. I don't have much confidence in this strategy because it's attempting to solve the issue from the wrong direction. Hopefully he won't end up wasting too much of our tuition $ on this. Instead, he should just save us the time and $ and drive over to the Davis dean with a notepad. Seriously.

Hastings' location in SF will at least help prevent us from sinking in professional reputation and ranking. And the right admin leadership should be able to improve our standing given our location and resources.

I just like that LSP has me at a "Strong Consider" for Davis at #23 while still a "Weak Consider" ("Consider" with ED) at Hastings #42.Just let me live in my fairytale land of lollipops.The fact of the matter is that UC-Davis pays its secretarial staff way more and has much higher electrical bills, and if that doesn't qualify you to be in the top 25, I don't know what does.

Also, don't let COL claims strongly influence your choice on this decision. Yes, living in Davis will be cheaper overall, relatively even a little more so if you have a car. But certainly, if you live in the Tower at Hastings, you'll pay rents only slightly above similar stuff in Davis. Students who don't typically share apts in SF or around the bay and save that way. But the idea that you can pay around $500/mo for your own place in Davis is just bunk.

I looked into this last year and rents in Davis were actually more than I expected (still not bad for CA). I checked DavisWiki (http://daviswiki.org/Rental_Housing_Guide) and Craigslist. I even called a few places. And bear in mind all the absolute cheapest housing around Davis will be a dump and/or will be incredibly competitive to get b/c of the large undergrad population.

Point is, no question COL is less in Davis, though depending on your particular situation, not by as much as you might imagine (or be led to believe). Plus, total tuition & fees will be $5.5K more at Davis next year.

SBL wrote:seriously, if it stays like this for 5 years or so it might be cause for concern, but for the three of us this doesn't really mean doodly. I can't imagine firms are going to be changing their GPA cutoffs because of 1 year of USNews juggling.

well you're right that it doesn't mean anything for us, other than another pissing match, which is always a good past time over the internet...

But, as IUB and WUSTL show, even a sustained rise in the rankings for >5 years doesn't amount to anything... so when people say the rankings don't mean shit, they are right. The rankings don't mean shit. Not over one year, not over ten years

from 2002, (0L's of class of 2005) to 2011 the school rose steadily from 27 to 18one would think that classes of '06 and onward would place better...

Note that WUSTL has very respectable placement (even ITE relative to others), but it started out at #30 and it's pretty much been in that range the whole time as far as employment placement... except for the class of 2005, but then again the class of 2005 entered the school when it was ranked #27... the higher ranked classes did not achieve that.

Though TBF the missing data is really annoying, but still, there is either a weak inverse trend between rank and employment since the 02 rank spike, or there is no trend at all.

Borhas wrote:I find this thread interesting because it gets to the heart of why the USNWR lists don't mean shit. So 0L's should take this to heart...

drdolittle wrote:Davis either, but I do believe it does have more of a community feel by virtue of its smaller size, etc...

on its surface this seems to be a good thing, but it's good to remember that all law schools are small. Even the biggest ones have less than 1500 people. That's less than most tiny liberal arts colleges. At that point you have to decide if you really want to be around so few people for so long. Even at Hastings, which is one of the big schools, I feel like the school is really small because I see the same folks day in and day out (even people not in my section). But at Hastings it's still pretty easy to detach from the law school bubble, because SF provides so many escapes.

At a much smaller school like Davis, you have to wonder if you'll have problems w/ people "being all up in your business"

1. It's ranked in the top 25 (in addition to the following)2. It's not the best school in its state (in light of 3 and 4)3. It's not a major metropolitan area (in light of 2 and 4)4. It doesn't place well (in light of 1, 2, and 3)

Back on topic,

I agree that one should not choose between two schools solely because of their rank. If you want to work in whatever city Hastings is in, go to Hastings. If you want to work somewhere else in the state, go to the cheaper option.

drdolittle wrote:Also, don't let COL claims strongly influence your choice on this decision. Yes, living in Davis will be cheaper overall, relatively even a little more so if you have a car. But certainly, if you live in the Tower at Hastings, you'll pay rents only slightly above similar stuff in Davis. Students who don't typically share apts in SF or around the bay and save that way. But the idea that you can pay around $500/mo for your own place in Davis is just bunk.

I looked into this last year and rents in Davis were actually more than I expected (still not bad for CA). I checked DavisWiki (http://daviswiki.org/Rental_Housing_Guide) and Craigslist. I even called a few places. And bear in mind all the absolute cheapest housing around Davis will be a dump and/or will be incredibly competitive to get b/c of the large undergrad population.

Point is, no question COL is less in Davis, though depending on your particular situation, not by as much as you might imagine (or be led to believe). Plus, total tuition & fees will be $5.5K more at Davis next year.

drdolittle wrote:Also, don't let COL claims strongly influence your choice on this decision. Yes, living in Davis will be cheaper overall, relatively even a little more so if you have a car. But certainly, if you live in the Tower at Hastings, you'll pay rents only slightly above similar stuff in Davis. Students who don't typically share apts in SF or around the bay and save that way. But the idea that you can pay around $500/mo for your own place in Davis is just bunk.

I looked into this last year and rents in Davis were actually more than I expected (still not bad for CA). I checked DavisWiki (http://daviswiki.org/Rental_Housing_Guide) and Craigslist. I even called a few places. And bear in mind all the absolute cheapest housing around Davis will be a dump and/or will be incredibly competitive to get b/c of the large undergrad population.

Point is, no question COL is less in Davis, though depending on your particular situation, not by as much as you might imagine (or be led to believe). Plus, total tuition & fees will be $5.5K more at Davis next year.

Decide based on everything else, other than all this ^.

I pay $500 a month.

Are you living with your folks, family friends, roommates...?

If not, then congrats, that's great, but from my look last year, that's way below market average. I don't know the area as well as you do. I looked for places like most incoming students would and found that the average rents posted on DavisWiki (for 2008), if anything, were actually too low for 2010 but in the ballpark. For ex., 2008 ave 1-bdrm rent was at $932/mo, studio at $759/mo.