You did half of your dmg on the Bats with Divine storm. And 2,7% on the turtles. If your raid can afford having you beat the boss only (and the bats en passant) it's okay.

If you check the logs from Lethora, you wonder how bad other players are in his raid.

The only statistically working numbers are the raidbots numbers, since they just work with lots of wordoflogs fights and give real life data and no simulated numbers.

The test for damage we did this week in our guildruns were full rampage on Tortos and and the bird on pull, with pre potting, hero after roughly 3-5 seconds etc. With no adds/evasion to do we had our rogue beeing 1/3 above me, the DK with similar gear 1/4 above me (melees only).

Originally Posted by Boubouille

Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)

Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

You did half of your dmg on the Bats with Divine storm. And 2,7% on the turtles. If your raid can afford having you beat the boss only (and the bats en passant) it's okay.

If you check the logs from Lethora, you wonder how bad other players are in his raid.

The only statistically working numbers are the raidbots numbers, since they just work with lots of wordoflogs fights and give real life data and no simulated numbers.

The test for damage we did this week in our guildruns were full rampage on Tortos and and the bird on pull, with pre potting, hero after roughly 3-5 seconds etc. With no adds/evasion to do we had our rogue beeing 1/3 above me, the DK with similar gear 1/4 above me (melees only).

My raid can Afford to do the tactic the right way. If his raid cant , its not retri's problem , its guild/range problem.

Well looking at how you are doing in your guild is not the right way to do it, you have to log at more logs. If you look at raid boots (that get their numbers from World of Logs this is what you get (using normal since there are almost no logs from heroic).

Don't take the numbers below as facts, they only give a hint of the state of each class.

As stated by the poster, these are just general placements and theoretical maxes based on players who have parsed thus far. Don't take it as gospel.

What Ret can't do: Cleave. AOE of any sort.
What Ret CAN do: Burst hard single target every 2 mins. Provide group utility.

The problem with the parsings is that they look at overall/average encounter DPS, and not bottleneck/crux positions (like bursting down an important add, or pushing a transition). This is what Ret is good at, but it won't show up well in logs (unless you get REALLY specific, per log, which is hard/annoying/stupid to do for a general rule). However, not only that, it also exacerbates Ret's shortcomings to AOE/Cleave damage, since that damage will artificially inflate your encounter DPS (like the recount champ in here linking his Tortos normal kill where he just DS'd Bats the whole time).

The other big part of why you take a Ret is group utility, which is also not shown on logs/parses. Granted BoP, Sac-absolve and cleanse, LoH/SH heals, and HoPurity are all also brought by Holy (hey, its like an RBG complaint thread now!) but they cannot be ignored as part of Ret's toolkit. Skillbanner/demo banner, rally cry, safeguard, army, GFG/Remorseless all are also good raid utility items though, and probably more gamebreaking than BoP (outside of cheesing tank swaps).

TL;DR - Don't stare too hard at the rankings. I'm not saying Ret is top tier and that everyone who says otherwise is a fool, but I am saying that most of what Ret does/offers will not show up in the stat sheet (unless you really know how and where to look).

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

Each spec is not that interesting to take into consideration since people except druids and shamans (since they require completely different gear) will nine times out of ten play the spec that does the highest dps right now if they are serious about raiding.

My MS is prot, for my dps I play a mage, if fire is doing highest dps I will be playing fire, if frost is highest I will be playing frost and if arcane is highest I will be playing arcane. I might even change spec between bosses, if fire is far better on boss X and arcane is far better on boss Y I will most likely play fire on boss X and arcane on boss Y.

That aside ret is pretty garbage in 25mans (10mans its somewhat fine as you stated due to the wide aray of utility, which 25man hardly ever needs for obvious reasons).

Also I'm obviously talking about 515+++ gearlevels and not some LFR/normal mode "scrap-teams" 480-500. I'm pretty sure ret is more than fine with low gear levels due to the static/non-scaling buffs we recieved this patch.

(like the recount champ in here linking his Tortos normal kill where he just DS'd Bats the whole time).

Every raid adapts the tactic so they can benefit the most . In our raid that means having melee +tank stack in front of boss with melee dpsing bats>tortos and range spread dpsing turtles>bats>tortos. Ofcourse retri and any melee is useless on this fight if they are wrongly assinged on turtles, you just end up chasing them.

What i want to say with the log is not how badass i am killing 50%bats-50%tortos but how the raidgroup can benefit if they use the right classes for the right job. If this is not happening then we end up with qq threads like this saying how bad retri is.

Anyone who plays at semi-hardcore/casual level and cant be usefull for his raidgroup then he or his raidgroup is clearly doing something wrong.

Retri is not bad , they are average and for experienced retris playing in semi-hardcore/casual level they are more than fine with the extra utility they offer.

Honestly if you think ret is fine based of your normal mode guilds meter I feel sorry for you, normal basicly has no enrages anymore so you're allowed (more or less) to ignore mechanics and other fight specific things that you can't ignore in heroic.
Saying ret is fine based on normal is like saying a rally car is fine based on driving 100m on a freshly paved road with no traffic...

Every raid adapts the tactic so they can benefit the most . In our raid that means having melee +tank stack in front of boss with melee dpsing bats>tortos and range spread dpsing turtles>bats>tortos. Ofcourse retri and any melee is useless on this fight if they are wrongly assinged on turtles, you just end up chasing them.

What i want to say with the log is not how badass i am killing 50%bats-50%tortos but how the raidgroup can benefit if they use the right classes for the right job. If this is not happening then we end up with qq threads like this saying how bad retri is.

Anyone who plays at semi-hardcore/casual level and cant be usefull for his raidgroup then he or his raidgroup is clearly doing something wrong.

Retri is not bad , they are average and for experienced retris playing in semi-hardcore/casual level they are more than fine with the extra utility they offer.

While you were indirectly doing the correct thing (melee on Boss/cleave adds with ranged focused on adds), it was for the wrong reason. I don't think anyone with a clue puts melee on turtles outside of maybe the first spawn wave to get #1 down in time for first kick. After that, it's just tunnel boss for melee.

What we're saying is that, compared to a real cleave class like a DK or War, DS spam is Busch League. This becomes increasingly apparent in Heroics, where things matter a lot more (at current gear levels, anyway).

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

Honestly if you think ret is fine based of your normal mode guilds meter I feel sorry for you, normal basicly has no enrages anymore so you're allowed (more or less) to ignore mechanics and other fight specific things that you can't ignore in heroic.
Saying ret is fine based on normal is like saying a rally car is fine based on driving 100m on a freshly paved road with no traffic...

"Anyone who plays at semi-hardcore/casual level and cant be usefull for his raidgroup then he or his raidgroup is clearly doing something wrong."

This, if you cant understand it , i dont feel sorry for anything.

The retri i quoted the tortos log was saying

"So far in my guild they had to bench a lot of melee for Tortos. He's essentially the anti melee fight for this raid. In my guild melee tend to carry ranged on dps meters. Couldn't do it on 25 man, so they did it on 10m with only 2 melee dps."

And he is a 506ilvl retri at a 4/12guild ... So if they cant be usefull for the raid group its not a class problem its player/raid problem.

And lastry no one said retri is fine. We are midle of the pack as we always were an always be. Anyone who plays retri must have this in mind, i believe most people that playing retri (me included) are playing it because they just love the class,lore and they got good and experienced with this spec through the years.
Anyone who wants impresive numbers are welcomed to go and try another dps class.