Consigliere wrote:Brantley's ability on the bases and at the plate have been comped to a former Indian we all know, Kenny Lofton. And if you go back and look at Lofton's minor league career and even his first 2 years in the big leagues, he was almost strictly a singles hitter.

So was Alex Cole.

Slap-hitting from my centerfielder? Eh, I could live with it. Slap-hitting from a corner outfielder? Um... not as much.

Yeah but when you dont have a slap hitter in CF (Sizemore), you can have one in LF. Someone also said something about a future OF of LaPorta, Sizemore, and Wegs, that person must be crazy to think we could compete with the defense of those two in the corner OF positions

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DK, not sure what you mean by it not being close. If you mean their ages, well it's basically a wash. Grady turned 21 in the middle of his AA year (early Aug); Brantley did too (mid-May). So basically they played AA at the same age.

If you are referring to the SLG, I really don't see much difference other than Grady hit more triples and home runs and a few more doubles -- probably as a #3 hitter, not a leadoff hitter. And I wasn't saying Brantley was going to be the next Sizemore. I was simply using the numbers to show that power evolves but plate discipline rarely does and Brantley has a special talent with how little he Ks. Take that along with the fact he might get a little bigger and stronger and I expect his SLG will increase significantly. Besides, how about the fact that Brantlely's OBP is about 40 points higher than Sizemore's was while striking out 50 fewer times? Pretty impressive.

Basically, the concern here is that Brantley is another Alex Cole, Willy Tavares or Juan Pierre. Looking at their numbers, however, I don't see him being the same kind of player as they are/were. In fact, looking at the numbers I see more of this guy, particularly in his first five years (minus the record-setting number of SBs of course):
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/Rickey-Henderson.shtml

Now that's a guy with some unbelievable plate discipline who later developed some power too. If Brantley is 60-70% the player that guy was, I'd be thrilled (and so would Shapiro and most Indians fans I'd guess). There will be a position for him if he produces the kind of numbers he has in the minors.

I guess it comes down to what you value more: plate discipline and speed vs above average power from a middle infielder. To me Taylor Green is a slightly younger version of Jared Goedert and probably no better. Probably pretty comparable to Josh Rodriguez too. Don't need another one of these guys in the system. However, there's nobody in the system (Crowe included) who compares to Brantley. I think he's still the best choice at this point.

[From before the season]The Brewers 5th round pick last year burst on the prospect scene with a remarkable run for an 18 year old at high rookie Helena. The diminutive OF hit an impressive (.372/.421/.576/.996) with 26 of his 71 hits going for extra bases (18 2B, 3 3B and 5 HR) in his 191 AB's. It's hard to tell what to make of his 4 for 4 in steal attempts, though the lack of more attempts probably points to this not being a big part of his arsenal. His 6 assists in 52 games in right field are fairly impressive. Of course, there are some reasons to be skeptical, however. First and foremost, so much of his productivity was tied to his high batting average. That batting average was tied to a remarkably high batting average on balls in play (.443 BABIP) which tends to point to unsustainable luck getting balls to fall in. His walk rate (a touch under 9%) is a bit on the low side, though that isn't a huge problem yet. Taken with his 37 K's in 191 AB's (which translates to about 115 in 600 AB), it does point to needed improvement in his plate discipline. There is also some history of guys putting up large numbers at Helena, out of line with what they are later capable of, like Lou Palmisano and Charlie Fermaint. Next year will go a long way to fleshing out just prospect tier Gindl is on.

Exit_Stage_Left wrote:Does the PTBNL have to be named before the end of the minor league season, or the major league season? Just a question because I am growing anxious to see who we choose and who our options were.

From what I read, the end of the minor league season is the deadline, but I also read there being a question raised of these players possibly being involved in their respective league playoffs, not sure where Huntsville or Brevard County are in their respective chase for playoffs. That could change the deadline supposedly.

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Ive been reading this forum for along time now and just dont really understand where this thing about 4 players being potential guys as the ptbnl. I was watching All Bets Are Off and they showed an interview with Shapiro and he said that they were looking at two players. Im not sure but I think Antonetti said the same thing in his interview.

But with the way CC has been pitching I really wish that the ptbnl could have been based on CCs performance we might have ended up with another one of their big time double A guys.

Yeah, I still believe it is just two players for the PTBNL. Shapiro said flat out on the day of the trade "we have our choice between two players." Now, whether that changed or whatever, but we'll see.

I would think the deadline is the end of the minor league season being playoffs included. So, yeah, looks like we could get some resolution to this here by mid-Sept. Also a resultion regarding Buffalo to Columbus around the same time as well.

carnegie44115 wrote:Well as we all have assumed the PTBNL is not Gamel, he has been promoted to AAA and his debut he went 0-4 with 4 Ks, I wonder if he felt like broking his bat over his knee.

He was struggling at Huntsville too- he was under .200 with a .600 or so OPS since the all-star break. I guess they are promoting him to see if a new challenge is what he needs. I often think our guys stagnate at a level and would benefit from being handled like this. Obviously the golden sombrero isn't a good start but maybe Gamel will benefit from the promotion.

Consigliere wrote:Yeah, I still believe it is just two players for the PTBNL. Shapiro said flat out on the day of the trade "we have our choice between two players." Now, whether that changed or whatever, but we'll see.

I would think the deadline is the end of the minor league season being playoffs included.

With the minor league season winding down this week, I thought I would bump this up again; not in reliving the debate on Brantley and Green, rather what are the conditions of PTBNL.

What I mean is that the last game of minors is Aug. 31/Sept. 1. Neither Huntsville or Bervard seem to be in the playoff mix. Thus, will we hear something around that time or was there an actual conditional PTBNL based on CC performance or Brewers making the playoffs, and if so, who? If they wait to name this player past Sept. 7th, why wait unless there is a condition to upgrade from Green/Brantley?

And, why even wait now. With a week left, will someone actually improve or show something that will switch their mind on who to choose. And, with Akron possibly in the playoff (as a wild card or something - since they dropped out of the division lead), why wouldn't we want that "special PTBNL" now and ship them up to Akron to gain the "valuable" experience that playoffs bring per Shapiro...???

I guess you could say that they want to know their major league plans next year (will Barfield/Crowe work out). Yet, Brantley and Green will not contribute next year, where as an upgrade may.

onlyindreams wrote:They just want the players to finish their seasons healthy and then the decision will be made. There's no reason to make it while the season is still going on.

I can see that to an extent ... which will then lead for the decision being made next Tuesday to get this conversation done and over with. Yet, if playoff experience for our stars are so important why not finalize it now to get the player to Akron? And, if we want to avoid injuries so much, why not rest Mills, Santana, Huff, ....

Part of this was being a conspiracy theorist thinking we still may have a shot at a top player like Escobar that has been completely under the radar yet we needed to wait for some conditions to be met (playoff for Brewers where they would be less upset losing 2 stars).

Yet, when I saw the playoff scenario, it makes no sense to me on why we are waiting when either a Brantley or Green would not help Akron over Pickney or Constanza and lose out on Shapiro's valuable experience versus an injury that could happen now or in March. Injuries are part of the game and what injury for a position player is so serious that would not heal before next March (except a broken leg like Whitney which are flukes). It is one thing to be more cautious with a pitcher because any injury is a major setback. Yet, should we worry about a position player pulling a hammy?

I don't believe there are any conditions with the PTBNL. As in no matter what CC does or anything like that. I believe they have two or the rumored four players to choose from by the end of the minor league season. Per Shapiro.

Now, I prefer to just hold off until their season is done. No need bringing them in now for a week.

Also, this may have something to do with limited roster space. Not saying that is the reason or I agree if it were the case, but I just thought I would bring it up.

When Barfield and Pronk come back on they'll have to drop someone if the PTBNL needs to be added to the 40. Waiting as long as possible gives them more time to evaluate who they are considering dropping.

If they aren't adding someone that needs to be on the 40 then I don't think they'd be waiting. Better to get them into our system sooner than later to let them meet their new teammates and coaches and get acclimated.

Interestingly enough, Brantley, who so many people on this forum have fallen in love with, has pretty much been an average player in 2A. OPS at .700, BA down to .250, slg pct under .300. Has a decent OBP rate of .350 but certainly not any better than decent - especially when you consider his slg pct.

And conversely, Green has been pushing his numbers up. OPS over .900, his OBP over .400 and his BA around .320 - with a slg pct around .520.

Someone on another forum said he's hearing from PD media types that the Indians are set on Brantley. I doubt they know anything more than anybody else, so I'd take that rumor with a grain of salt, but I certainly am hoping it's not true.

Consigliere wrote:Also, this may have something to do with limited roster space. Not saying that is the reason or I agree if it were the case, but I just thought I would bring it up.

If they aren't adding someone that needs to be on the 40 then I don't think they'd be waiting. Better to get them into our system sooner than later to let them meet their new teammates and coaches and get acclimated.

Both Green and Brantley will not need to be on the 40-man this winter (Green with 3 years and Brantley with 4 years out of high school). Thus, the only hold up is:

1) They are stuck on who to choice and will need to flip a coin
2) There is a 3rd person on the list that may need to go on the 40
3) There is a hidden contingent PTBNL
4) Or, they rather have Pickney or Panther get playoff experience over a person they see playing with the Indians down the road

Something is fishy. I do not buy the injury thing anymore. I could see wanting to make sure Brantley is healthy yet he has been back for weeks already (enough time to scout) and could get could playoff experience with Akron if he is our guy, if not then Green could get AA playoff experience over Pickney. Yet, you don't wait a week wondering if a position player will pull a hammy at the end of the season. And, if we are worried about losing a Pickney or a Panther from our AA roster (due to space concern in the minors), we are in trouble.

TitoFrancona wrote:Interestingly enough, Brantley, who so many people on this forum have fallen in love with, has pretty much been an average player in 2A. OPS at .700, BA down to .250, slg pct under .300. Has a decent OBP rate of .350 but certainly not any better than decent - especially when you consider his slg pct.

And conversely, Green has been pushing his numbers up. OPS over .900, his OBP over .400 and his BA around .320 - with a slg pct around .520.

Someone on another forum said he's hearing from PD media types that the Indians are set on Brantley. I doubt they know anything more than anybody else, so I'd take that rumor with a grain of salt, but I certainly am hoping it's not true.

Tito, you must be reading Brantley's '07 stats in Huntsville. His current stats:

TitoFrancona wrote:Interestingly enough, Brantley, who so many people on this forum have fallen in love with, has pretty much been an average player in 2A. OPS at .700, BA down to .250, slg pct under .300. Has a decent OBP rate of .350 but certainly not any better than decent - especially when you consider his slg pct. .

Toxic, if you look down the list a bit more...it shows he has hit .250 since his promotion to 2A. So even though his average is still in the .300's it is lower in AA. Actually all of his stats are way lower, but he is still walking more than striking out.

Exit_Stage_Left wrote:Toxic, if you look down the list a bit more...it shows he has hit .250 since his promotion to 2A. So even though his average is still in the .300's it is lower in AA. Actually all of his stats are way lower, but he is still walking more than striking out.

That .250AVG was in 59 games in the 2007 season. He has spent all year at AA this year.

TitoFrancona wrote:Interestingly enough, Brantley, who so many people on this forum have fallen in love with, has pretty much been an average player in 2A. OPS at .700, BA down to .250, slg pct under .300. Has a decent OBP rate of .350 but certainly not any better than decent - especially when you consider his slg pct. .

Yes, unfortunately I looked at the 2007 which in MiMLB they show completely separate of 2008 numbers. My apologies.

Still, he's shown no power, his defense & arm makes him LF'er. Green on the other hand has just as good a OBP, draws just as many walks, has more power and at worst is a 3rd baseman, at best a MIF'er. IMO, in every single respect, Green's the better fit for this team.

Tito, you also have to realize that Brantley is younger than Green, and posting several higher numbers than Green at a higher level. I don't care who we choose, I just hope they pan out and can really improve the ball club.

Hoynes says in no uncertain terms that there are four players in the mix:

Player to be named: It doesn't look as if Class AA Huntsville or Class A Brevard County will make the postseason. The player who will complete the Sabathia trade is playing one or the other of those Brewers farm clubs, but that doesn't mean the Indians are any closer to making a decision.

If any of the four players the Indians and Brewers agreed upon continues to play past their minor-league seasons -- maybe the Brewers call one of them up for the stretch run, or they go to Arizona Instructional League or Fall League -- the Indians could continue scouting them.

They may also make the decision as soon as today.

Outfielder Michael Brantley and third baseman Taylor Green are two of the four players.

That was in his Friday Aug. 29 coulumn.

Also, FWIW, Chisenhall is being moved to 3rd base. He's only 19 so he's got a ways to go, but I think he's playing at about the same minor league level as Taylor Green and his offensive numbers are similar, especially the way he's been coming on recently after adjusting to playing every day and using a wood bat.

TCBinaflash wrote:But if we take green we still would have acquired a weak hitting corner infielder.

Double digit HRs at 3rd are needed but the first digit needs to be at least a 2, not a 1 like the 15 hrs he has now.

Okay, I can't really dispute that, although everyone tells me that this is not a concern for Ben Francisco. I guess power for corner outfielders isn't nearly as important as that from third basemen.

Different question, though: how do you feel about double-digit homers in the teens from your second baseman? Because bby all reports, one of the decision points on Green is whether he can play second base.

(I still say .800+ OPS isn't "weak," FWIW, but obviously that's an A-ball .800+ OPS and nothing like a major-league equivalent. And if Green is "weak," then Brantley is downright "feeble.")

TCBinaflash wrote:But if we take green we still would have acquired a weak hitting corner infielder.

Double digit HRs at 3rd are needed but the first digit needs to be at least a 2, not a 1 like the 15 hrs he has now.

Okay, I can't really dispute that, although everyone tells me that this is not a concern for Ben Francisco. I guess power for corner outfielders isn't nearly as important as that from third basemen.

Different question, though: how do you feel about double-digit homers in the teens from your second baseman? Because bby all reports, one of the decision points on Green is whether he can play second base.

(I still say .800+ OPS isn't "weak," FWIW, but obviously that's an A-ball .800+ OPS and nothing like a major-league equivalent. And if Green is "weak," then Brantley is downright "feeble.")

Yeah, his bat would be awesome at 2nd. But from what I understand you could use Garko as his defensive replacement at 2nd and not see much difference.

I think baseball prospectus even doubts Green's defense anywhere in the infield.

If you get a package next year with reeking of stale lawnmower gas than you will have your answer about Francisco.

Tyner was only in A+ ball at the age of 21. He never hit his first homerun until he was 27, Brantley had 2 when he was 20 and has 4 this year. Tyner BB/K rate was slightly worse than 1:1. Brantley's rate is around 1.5/1. Tyner has trouble against lefties, with a career-OPS (in the minors) around .650. Brantley consistently hits both (.800 OPS or above http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi. )

But I see where you are coming from. Brantley could plateau out somewhere between a Jason Tyner or Ben Francisco. I think that's what makes this decision hard for some people, both players (Green, Brantley) are probably not going to be superstars one day .. but both have a good chance of being solid Major League players. Role players. It's hard to get too excited for that type of player ... but you never know, sometimes role players turn into All-stars.

Tyner was only in A+ ball at the age of 21. He never hit his first homerun until he was 27, Brantley had 2 when he was 20 and has 4 this year. Tyner BB/K rate was slightly worse than 1:1. Brantley's rate is around 1.5/1. Tyner has trouble against lefties, with a career-OPS (in the minors) around .650. Brantley consistently hits both (.800 OPS or above http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi. )

But I see where you are coming from. Brantley could plateau out somewhere between a Jason Tyner or Ben Francisco. I think that's what makes this decision hard for some people, both players (Green, Brantley) are probably not going to be superstars one day .. but both have a good chance of being solid Major League players. Role players. It's hard to get too excited for that type of player ... but you never know, sometimes role players turn into All-stars.

Good answer, thanks.

I will always remember that Tyner's major-league homer came off Jake Westbrook. I would have bet a whole heap o' money that Westbrook wouldn't be the pitcher Tyner finally got.

Tyner was only in A+ ball at the age of 21. He never hit his first homerun until he was 27, Brantley had 2 when he was 20 and has 4 this year. Tyner BB/K rate was slightly worse than 1:1. Brantley's rate is around 1.5/1. Tyner has trouble against lefties, with a career-OPS (in the minors) around .650. Brantley consistently hits both (.800 OPS or above http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi. )

But I see where you are coming from. Brantley could plateau out somewhere between a Jason Tyner or Ben Francisco. I think that's what makes this decision hard for some people, both players (Green, Brantley) are probably not going to be superstars one day .. but both have a good chance of being solid Major League players. Role players. It's hard to get too excited for that type of player ... but you never know, sometimes role players turn into All-stars.

All of wich means you take Matt Lucroy if he is on that list. Two role players with limited upsides verses that of a potential All Star who plays a premium position. Worst case scenario you have a huge trading chip.

Should be a no brainer.

" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro

Mcreek wrote:All of wich means you take Matt Lucroy if he is on that list. Two role players with limited upsides verses that of a potential All Star who plays a premium position. Worst case scenario you have a huge trading chip.

Should be a no brainer.

That's a valid argument. I just wish Lucroy were in AA, it would be a good measure of what he is really worth. Plus, he would be one year closer to helping us out.

That's one of my big selling points with Brantley, he is more likely to help out in 2010 than the other two. 2010, I feel, will be the year for our greatest chance to win the WS. After that, it's going to be another retooling that will need to be done.

Last edited by Toxicadam on Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Having Santana and Lucroy together would be similar to when the Cavz had both Mark Price and Kevin Johnson. We could get a great return on the One we decide to move. Prospects like Green and Brantly are a dime a dozen IMO.

" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro

Prosecutor wrote:Hoynes says in no uncertain terms that there are four players in the mix:

Player to be named: It doesn't look as if Class AA Huntsville or Class A Brevard County will make the postseason. The player who will complete the Sabathia trade is playing one or the other of those Brewers farm clubs, but that doesn't mean the Indians are any closer to making a decision.

If any of the four players the Indians and Brewers agreed upon continues to play past their minor-league seasons -- maybe the Brewers call one of them up for the stretch run, or they go to Arizona Instructional League or Fall League -- the Indians could continue scouting them.

They may also make the decision as soon as today.

Outfielder Michael Brantley and third baseman Taylor Green are two of the four players.

That was in his Friday Aug. 29 coulumn.

Also, FWIW, Chisenhall is being moved to 3rd base. He's only 19 so he's got a ways to go, but I think he's playing at about the same minor league level as Taylor Green and his offensive numbers are similar, especially the way he's been coming on recently after adjusting to playing every day and using a wood bat.

If true and one choice in Lucroy, the choice is obvious to me. Also, Green has missed the past two weeks, so I would like to know what has caused this absence.

Finally: There's a chance that the player to be named to complete the Sabathia deal hinges on where the Brewers finish in the NL Central standings. That could explain why the Indians have waited so long to make the decision.

Michael Brantley and Taylor Green, two of the players made available to the Indians, suffered injuries that hurt their ability to scout them. Brantley sprained an ankle at Class AA Huntsville and Green was hit in the hand by a pitch Aug. 12 that ended his season at Class A Brevard County.

Finally: There's a chance that the player to be named to complete the Sabathia deal hinges on where the Brewers finish in the NL Central standings. That could explain why the Indians have waited so long to make the decision.

Michael Brantley and Taylor Green, two of the players made available to the Indians, suffered injuries that hurt their ability to scout them. Brantley sprained an ankle at Class AA Huntsville and Green was hit in the hand by a pitch Aug. 12 that ended his season at Class A Brevard County.

I'm pretty sure PTBNL rules dictate that the player cannot be conditional, so that rules out that possibilty.

I'm not so sure why Hoynes is thinking of wild speculatory reasons as to why the Indians are "taking so long".

They're not "taking so long", they have until the end of the MLB season to decide on the player; two of the players have missed time with injury (Brantley and Green who missed the last 2 weeks of the regular season) - as Shapiro would put it they're just doing their due dillegence.