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Those aliquot strings are tuned similarly as the "ballast" string in a common unison, just by changing the shape of the envelope of the tone (I mean no need to pluck the aliquot string unless it is grossly out of tune)

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

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Some of the old style aliquots were an embarrassment when they got old. It seemed to me that the brass post got loose in the bridge and didn't transfer the vibrations. They just went thunk when plucked and had no sustain. The new ones are audible and sustain as well as the struck strings and are not such an embarrassment to the unison. I, too, like that poetic way of saying it.

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?Thank you for your message. Fortunately I understand things about "wrong-sounding in choirs." You have done a great job of creating these audio files. I will post them on my website. I hope this will be helpful in understanding the piano unison Russian-speaking beginners tuner.Sincerely,

Translation from Finnish, the language Max adressed me in when he wrote his last post:

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Patrick, greetings from Kazakhstan. I am very grateful for your free advice. I'd like to ask how you liked the piano music in the concert?

'Hi Max I liked the music and the playing, but honestly speaking the piano was in a shape that no doubt made it hard to make good music on it. This set aside, the concert was admittedly an experience to the audience, and that might be most important of all.'

""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?

""

the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. [/quote]Thank rxd,that's what I wanted to know

regarding unison tuning, I think every tuner - including very good ones - has been in a concert where his/her unisons started to drift. It is a truly gruesome thing... I can't talk about it any more for now, because I will lose a good night's sleep if I continue

I just sat at the computer listening to Brad Mehldau's playing at the Village Vanguard, NY, 2006. A bit into the gig, the tuning is loosening up.

The tune is in A minor. Listen to B4. That note is much more than 2 cents off. Brad notices that, too, and because jazz piano players have the advantage of choosing what to play after the theme is introduced, he avoids letting B4 ring. I can understand him, it's really kind of awful-sounding.

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch

It's subtler than that, Max. Slightly sharp on the aliquots was taught to me by the Blüthner technicians when I joined the company in the 1960's but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here. I suppose it's better to say "if anything, sharp, but never on the flat side". This is a matter of judgement, it would be foolish if I were to try to lock it down to a cents value. As another old tuner said; "put the little******* where they 'sound' ". I will not write exactly what he called them because it will certainly get lost in translation and you will, no doubt, chastise me.

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.

Of course, it is not outside the bounds of probability that you tuned perfect unisons that sprang apart at the first energetic playing so pin setting goes together with still unisons

While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch

but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here. I fully understand that you have to express "any aggravation but it was well within 2 cents mentioned here." For me it is difficult practical terms. I hope that my ears will help .

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate. We are looking at the moment that you remove every last trace accordion sound." Do not have the moral right to leave "accordion lapses in the choir" I'll fix.

While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).

What concerns the use of the "theory of the corners setting lever" I fully agree with you. Need hold the handle of T-bar is not parallel to the strings. While the power right hand the handle weaker than the left. If we use the L-shaped classic tuning hammer "to reduce the forces on Pinblock" that I think should lead to (9-12). A handle only the left and move UP!.

Accordion? I would say either hammered dulcimer or cimbalom, and I tend to believe that before metal frames and multi layers pin blocks and L-shape tuning levers (and normal temperature and humidity control) were in use, that is (funnily enough) more the kind of unisons piano players would go along with.

Please do not get me wrong, nothing to do with musical-ear-based "good intonation" that in my opinion as always been shareable as it is today; nothing to do with clean, long sounding and stable unisons that we are enabled to achieve, resulting from refined technology and (now called for, essential) skill.

Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)

I tried yesterday to record "dull" unison (the dynamics is low as most of the energy is given immediately) then "open unison" (obtained with always one string frankly phasing on reverse than the others, that is in the 0.1 0,4 cts range but may certainly be more depending of th ih of the piano. I had only a low iH piano for those tests, that make them more difficult as low iH straighen the enveloppe very easely)

Despite that, you can make a tone that sort of implose on itself, or a tone that gives enough energy to the partials, producing more lengh, more dynamics, and the otherwhile missing sensation of an efficient attack in the pianist fingers.

The unbalance is obtained naturally while tuning, to perceive its presence you need to pluck the strings, playing with the hammer each string we are really in the ear discrimination zone (but I heard 3 different pitches on the first unison posted by Pat). This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

I'say one must stop thinking pitch and learn to perceive the energy level in its fingers an ears. Then, on a moderate ih piano the tuner can reinforce the tone of a partial.

Regulating the attack soon so it couple audibly the partials will rob harshness and transfer it to musical tone.

A single string (roslau) show a visible hop after a "hole" immediately after the attack noise. I believe that tuning from that moment is more efficient than regulating only the tail or even during the thick part of tone.

I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Only changing the force used to play is enough to change the final tone (hopefully, as changing our listening moment is not a good idea, it is tiring and you can bevwrong in tge end.

Nevertheless, one have to force himself a little to listen sooner, the best tip for that is to "listen with the playing hand". With time all that begin to be natural. Tuning is not tiring then.

Edited by Kamin (01/20/1310:21 AM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...".

I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.

Ando, I too like it, that Max writes as Max does, be him totally aware of it (like you presumably are)... I would do not like if Max was left with his petty ignorance in order to please you, Ando, as I would find that unhealthy.

You know, in our profession we may need to speak English sometime, and all the better if our English (along with our tuning) is correct, whether Ando loves that or not. .

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)

I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Kamin,if I understand you correctly, the "basic clean unison" depends in this case the external force of impact with respect to the string . In my practice, I try to make the last tuning unison at FF (forte). However it is very hard to hear on FF inconspicuous beats between three strings