Did Amaro Balk At Offers for Young, Ruiz?

Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com says that the Yankees offered a decent deal for Michael Young, but Ruben Amaro shot it down.

From Heyman:

Yankees GM Brian Cashman and Phillies GM Ruben Amaro spoke on the phone around 3 p.m. ET Wednesday, an hour before the trade deadline, at which time Amaro confirmed what the Yankees had been reading in the media: Michael Young was willing to waive his no-trade clause to go to the Yankees.

So Cashman offered to send a prospect — believed to be righthanded pitcher Tommy Kahnle — to Philly and pay the $5 million to go on Young’s deal. Amaro rejected the offer.

If that’s the case, it’s hard to understand the reasoning behind the non-move. Does Amaro think he can get more out of a desperate team before the waiver deadline? Is Michael Young likely to come back to Philadelphia next season?

Heyman goes on to say that Amaro didn’t believe it was enough in return. Cashman is also believed to have inquired about Carlos Ruiz, to which he was turned down completely, being told he was unavailable.

If that is the case, it’s borderline unacceptable. Michael Young, as great a player as he has been in his career, plus being a consumate professional, is not part of the future of this club. Carlos Ruiz is about to be a 35-year-old catcher that has one home run and will be a free agent. That says it all.

And maybe…just maybe…Ruben will be able to make a BETTER deal sometime this month from a team that’s really desperate for help down the stretch. Forget the $5M for a minute. Just who the hell is Tony Kahnle anyway?

And again…who is gonna catch?? Erik Kratz is not a good caller of games or all that good defensively either.

Sorry…I can’t fault Amaro for not making a move if he didn’t think it was enough in return. Maybe he’s right.

To HK below… I firmly believe that Young will approve a trade anywhere if/when it comes down to it. He’s 38 y/o, he has no chance of playing in the postseason here, this season, so he might as well go somewhere he’ll have a chance to play in the postseason. He has no reason to be picky and no leverage to say no.

Here’s the problem. Let’s say he puts Young on waivers and the Yankees claim him. Now, RAJ has no leverage. He can either take Kahnle or pull Young off waivers and keep him. Don’t you think Cashman knows this? His only hope is that some team that’s worse in the standings than the Yankees claims Young and offers more. Of course, Young will have to approve being traded to that team.

hk,
So you are saying that it would not be in Cashman’s best interests to do whatever he can to get Michael Young if he really wants him? I can see him pulling the 5 million back, but I’d think he’d at least offer a different prospect.

He’s got to understand that we already have a stable full of guys that can’t get the ball over the plate. Why would we want another one in Kahnle? Why would Amaro want another Aumont or Diekmann? I mean I get it, they get nothing now, but from afar this kid just looks like more of the same to me.

@ The OCP, you may be right, but I don’t see any team below the Yankees in the standings claiming him any way. If the Yankees still want him, they’ll claim him and we’ll see if Cashman blinks or not. However, in a trade market where not one top 50 prospect (Olt may be top 50) was traded, what does anyone expect to receive for a no power, no glove, slow, rental 3B who can still get on base a little bit?

@ Lefty, see my question above. What were you expecting for Michael Young? Why not take a flier on another Aumont / Diekmann type? Did you know that Craig Kimbrel walked 5.7 per 9 innings in his minor league career and has only walked 3.5 per 9 in the big leagues? With good coaching, some young players can harness their control. If I’m getting a lottery ticket, give me one who has struck out 11.9 per 9 innings in the minors.

Then they need to find some new coaches. I’d still rather have a 23 year old lottery ticket who has K’d 11.9 / 9 IP in the minors for a number of years instead of an over-the-hill guy in his last 2 months on the team. I also don’t want to see Young take AB’s from Asche or Ruf. Two months from now, Young will leave and they’ll have nothing to show for it. Does it really matter if they finish 79-83 with Young or 77-85 without him?

hk, He won’t be here for two months. I am quite confident he’ll be traded, soon. Surely you can see the position MY put RA jr. in by not agreeing to go to the Yankees until 2:30 the day of the deadline. Maybe if they’d had another hour, they would have accomplished something.

Honestly, with Fransden and some of the young infielders, or even Betancourt, I don’t know why we needed him at all this year, but that’s in the past now. No crying in baseball.

Ruiz makes a little sense at least. With Tommy Joseph’s regression, they don’t have a catcher next year and may prefer Chooch on a one-year deal to the FA agent options. McCann is good, but if they’re drafting btw 11-15 as expected I doubt they want to fork over that pick for anyone that’s not a stud.

Young makes zero sense. I said as much on Twitter, I cannot think of ANY downside of moving him if the other team picks up the money… even if the Phils don’t get anything in return. You’re not getting draft compensation for him, you have Asche ready to replace him… will he even make it through waivers? I’d imagine multiple teams would claim him in August… he’s useful to a contender…

I’m glad that RAJ didn’t give Young and Ruiz away for basically nothing. I’m tired of the Phillies helping other contenders and getting slop in return. Pence helped the Giants win the WS last year and Victorino is batting around .285 with 14 SBs and is playing center field like the gold glover he always was, for the Red Sox. If teams want talent from us, than they have to part with talent. Good message Ruben, now they know.

Umm victorino was a FA last yr and ruiz and young are about that age where they are over the hill. But of course saving money and getting anything in return is stupid. See young and Ruiz are the type of players you trade. But lets hold onto them bc even though we aren’t going anywhere we don’t want a team in the AL to get better with players who will be fa’s at the end of the yr. Reuben is that you?

Ah, now we’re talking, a man that can see the big picture. Well stated, Frank.

Ruben has to turn around his reputation of being a pushover, and I for one am glad he seems to have started that process this season. For this deadline, he appears to have decided prior to entering negotiations, what was acceptable return, and he stuck to his guns. Absolutely sending a good message to his counterparts. There is such a thing as growing into your job, and that’s what it looks like he is doing to me.

I’m glad that RAJ didn’t give Young and Ruiz away for basically nothing.

That’s a short sighted view. You’re measuring Young as a baseball talent thinking he’s a product of x value. That product, which I won’t belittle out of respect for the guy was of x value when they signed him because they expected to contend.

Now that they are out of it, as a 36 year old with an expiring contract, and a year further removed from being however good a player you wish to think of him as, what value does he have that gives the allowance of expecting anything of value. What purpose does he serve the remainder of the year at a cost of around 2 million a month.

He wasn’t a terrible sign. But his game isn’t so good that he’ll make a difference toward meaningless wins the rest of the year. His subtraction was of value.

Personally, as a fan, I rather like the guy and hope he finishes well, and earns a contract somewhere next year. But what’s that got to do with how to run a ballclub?

Don’t worry, that’s not what they show. What they show is that he has traded for the most WARP / $ of all of the GM’s who have been with their current teams for at least the last 4 (or maybe it was 3) years. Of course, when you consider that RAJ was one of the only GM’s who was spending money during the first 3 years of his tenure, the charts are next-to-meaningless.

@OCP – Yes, if Aug 31 comes and there’s no better offer and the Phillies are truly out of it…then, yeah…I’ll change my tune. But doesn’t it make sense to wait and see? Ruben absolutely did the right thing by playing it the way he did. I’ll bet someone comes knocking somewhere around Aug 25th or so.

I understand where you are coming from but you are expecting that Young will make it through waivers, if he does not we are stuck and we will have zero leverage. Also by Aug. 25th, Boston will likely not be interested in Young at all since Bogaerts or Middlebrooks may be called up. That leaves you with the Rangers, who had zero interest in Young and the Yankees who are currently in 4th in their division and may be out of contention by late Aug. Then we are stuck with Young and will get nothing in return for him, getting a guy like Kahnle will help to replace the relievers we lost for Young in the first place in Lindblom and Bonilla.

Anyone who says Amaro did the right thing is ignorant. Michael Young has no future and Ruiz may be back next season, but it is not like the team will fall apart without him. Not to mention unless you bench Asche or move Brown over to RF mid season, after brown returns Young is going to the bench. If you move him to the Yankees and get Kahnle and salary relief you actually do pretty well. I would ask for another prospect, but Kahnle is a good reliever. Only 23 and he has an ERA of 2.42 with 52 strikeouts in 44 innings at AA. He has the ability to get both lefties and righties out. With the disarray that our bullpen is in why would you not try to add other options? What relief prospects do we have? Aumont is in AAA along with lefties Robles and Johnson, both of whom look like lefty specialists at best. In AA you have Knigge who looked good but has been horrible as of late, Simon who has been horrible this season and Nesseth who has come out of nowhere to be the closer in Reading. In all honesty the until you get to Clearwater you do not have any legitimate relievers that are prospects. You do have Guth, Giles, Inch and O’Sullivan w/ the Threshers but for the most part none of them are even ready to make the move to Reading. So please again tell me why we should not trade a 38yr old who has no future with this team for a top 20 organization prospect reliever?

However, if Kahnle was the guy offered for M Young, it is a good trade for the Phillies even if it’s one for one. M Young should now be at 1B with Asche up with the big club. What happens when Howard and Brown are back? You have to sit either Ruf, Asche, or M Young. If it is Ruf sitting, that means playing D Young in RF, where he is atrocious. Asche is already showing he’s a step up defensively at 3B.

I’m ignorant because I don’t think the team needs another prospect that cannot get the damn ball over the plate. I asked one thing from my pitchers when I coached, and one thing only. Give us a chance by throwing strikes. Let our fielders at least have a chance. You can’t do that if you walk 5 to 6 batters per 9 innings like this cat does.

You showed the stats and splits, 30 BB in 44 innings and nearly as bad in previous years. You put a reliever in the game and you need him to get three outs. But when you go into that inning knowing there is close to a 70% chance he is going to walk a batter, you have no chance. We already have Phillippe Aumont.

Sheesh, just offer us a kid that throws strikes for crying out loud. Bad strikes, meaty strikes, any kind of strikes. Because they can work with them. I’m sick of these guys that can’t put the damn ball over the plate.

I completely get that playing hard ball with the Yankees was maybe not the right move, but everyone acts as if you cannot trade after the deadline, and you can. This is MLB, maybe other leagues have a hard deadline, but they don’t here. It’s a little harder now to make a trade, but not that hard.

The biggest trade to go down last year was on August 25th 2012 when a 9 player trade between the Red Sox and Dodgers occurred. It’s not that hard to get guys through waivers anymore, the economic situation right now weakens the ability of teams to block others. That’s how Adrian Gonazales, and Crawford and Beckett got through. Who’s going to think 36 year old Michael Young is dangerous enough on another team to hurt their chances of making the playoffs? Who’s going to take the 5 million dollar risk to block him?

I see your point with Kahnle and that walk ratio is not ideal, but the key is you never know with a prospect like that he has good stuff and maybe he lowers the walks number with experience and better coaching.

The key with waivers is the team willing to take on the salary of a player and the reason that Gonzalez, Crawford and Beckett made it through waivers is because of the salary. As you said its a $5M dollar risk with young, which in the scheme of things is nothing. Multiple teams may take a chance on him and if Ruben still cant get the value he wants does he still keep him? Who would try and claim him? Well try basically the entire league….

Dodgers- to replace Uribe, who is inconsistent and cant hit
Pirates- to play 1st base and fill in for Alvarez against really tough lefties
Reds- to play 3rd since both Frazier and Hannahan are not getting it done
Rangers- Possibly as a 1B or DH
Royals- To play 3B, and possibly 2nd in a pinch
Indians- to play 3B and give more offense than Lonnie
Boston- Possibly to play 3B and sometimes 1st
Rays- To be DH, Scott has been streaky this season
Orioles- Really could use him as a DH
Yankees- 3B, 1B or DH you pick

Out of the teams on that list Young agreed to waive his NTC to go to Texas, Boston or NYY. Well he would have to pass through the entire National league and the Royals before the Yankees would have a shot at claiming him. Like I also mentioned in another post your assuming that all the teams that he would go to will still want him in late Aug. Boston will likely give Bogaerts or Middlebrooks a shot to win the job before Young. The Rangers did not really want him at the deadline, that could change with Cruz likely being suspended but it still would be tough to get a deal done there. And for the Yankees, they are currently 8.5 games back in their division and 3.5 games back of the 2nd WC. If they are not close in either of those two races they will not want him at all.

So in summary, chances are a team will claim him and unless he decides he is willing to go anywhere the Phillies will be forced to keep him for the remainder of the season and get nothing when he leaves in the off-season. I want to be as optimistic as you are and I believe that Young is worth more than Kahnle and $5M. However, Kahnle and that salary relief will be better than losing Young for nothing. We will see what happens, but the fact of the matter is Amaro really screwed up this trade deadline and ultimately will ruin this team.

My point about waivers was that Michael Young- 36 year old Michael Young, is not scary enough to other teams to worry about blocking him. He’s a single hitter now, and a defensive liability at least at third base, so in that case the 5m used to block, is not worth the risk, especially if you don’t really need him.

So, it’s a good thing that all those teams you mentioned might be interested, no? Let them fight it out for him. Schmenkman is right, unless the guy is a complete moron, he will go somewhere with a chance to win his one and only world championship, in exchange for a few months away from his family. Hell, we have skype now, he can see them everyday.

I think Young is at the point in his career where, yes he would like to win a WS but his family is becoming more important. Do I think he would waive his NTC, ultimately yes but the key that I have mentioned before is that if a team does claim him the Phils will have to negotiate with them only or keep him for the season. Will the get a better deal than a player that was in the Yankees top 20 to start the season and $5M? Who knows.

Well I can only guess now Alex M., but it would seem they think they can. I guess we’ll find out. You should comment more often here, you seem to know the game well and I enjoy reading your comments. Maybe you have been and I just got you confused with our other Alex. If so, sorry about that.

I’m not always right, no one here is, but this is a good community. Many of us disagree on a daily basis, but we don’t disparage each other in the process of debate here. So if you don’t mind me asking, please just leave out the generalized name calling, and we can all have lively discourse, cool?

I don’t know anything about this pitching prospect, but if he’s even half decent, you had to make that trade. Not sure why anyone thinks your going to get a better prospect for an even shorter term rental if you trade him end of August instead of end of July.

Not trading Chooch I can somewhat understand, given how none of our catching prospects appear to be ready. That being said, who cares? It’s not like this team is going any where. I’d still do it before the waiver deadline if you can get a decent prospect.

You asked “Is Michael Young likely to return to Philadelphia next season?” (I assume you mean if he is not traded in August, which may happen.) What we do know is that he considers his family of prime importance in deciding where to play. So if he doesn’t return to Philly, will he return to Texas? Anywhere else and he is separated from his family.

That says it all. It might have been someone even worse than whoever with such a bad BB/9 rate.

Who “believes?” I want to know. Was it a genuine front office person, another GM, or was it Heyman himself? I notice he didn’t say.

Further, this whole thing has been hashed over in an earlier post. Even if you like beating dead horses, you should stop on this one, because now it doesn’t even resemble a horse or anything else but a pile of unrecognizable mush. Leave it to the maggots.

Can anyone tell me what direction Amaro is going with this team? His decisions this season make no sense. Young is not coming back next year. He never wanted to leave Texas and has said that any decision will be made with his family in mind. Not moving him makes no sense. None. RAJ is waiting for a better deal? Well you have to hope that the team involved doesn’t make another move. Or that the player isn’t claimed by another organization. But what about Utley? 3 years at 13 per? Are you serious? I love the guy but what in the last 3 years says that is a good deal? It’s another contract that will handcuff the team. Like Howard, Rollins and Papplebon.

I talked to a friend of mine about this proposed trade. He has seen Kahnle quite a bit this year since he has partial season tickets for Trenton. His thought on the trade is that the Yankees would have won in the short term, but the Phillies would win in the long term. Per him, Kahnle would be the second best pitcher in the bullpen in Reading immediately. That makes me really question this non-deal even more.

This Yahoo article may explain why the Phillies aren’t moving their aging players and apparently have no interest in rebuilding – something a few people here have sensed might be the case. I never imagined that the team making a fistful of money would beget mediocrity or worse, but…

FWIW, there have been a number of articles lately suggesting that the sports television bubble may soon burst and others like the one you reference that show otherwise. I’m not sure what’s going to happen in that industry, but I think it is actually pretty irrelevant to the conversation.

With 2 years remaining on the current contract, I’m not sure why the Phils couldn’t simultaneously rebuild and try to be better as soon as 2015. Having deep pockets is a huge advantage in rebuilding. For instance, the Phils supposedly let it be known that they would not pay any of Cliff Lee’s salary if they were to trade him. Why not? If they wanted high end prospects who were MLB ready or close to it (Boegarts and Bradley, Jr.), why did they not use their deep pockets and make Lee’s remaining money cheaper for the Red Sox? When the Phillies traded for Oswalt in 2010, they gave up better prospects in exchange for Houston paying a large chunk of Oswalt’s contract. If they had made Lee the best pitcher on the market for 2013 and affordable in 2014 and 2015, they may have had a buyer. Since they were trading Lee, who is owed over $70M for the next 2 2/3 seasons, the pushed Boston to acquire a lesser pitcher (Peavy), but a much better contract.

The problem is that the Phils front office is just not good. Because of this and because of what is suggested in the article that you reference, we must all be prepared for at least 10 current Phils – most of whom are already in the decline phase of their career and others of whom almost assuredly will be by 2015 – to be part of the 2015 team that is going to be the last before the contract expires. Hopefully by then, Franco and Asche and Biddle and Gonzalez plus a few real acquisitions (no more Wiggintons, and Delmon Youngs) all exceed expectations and can carry the aging veterans to bigger and better things. Unfortunately, I’m skeptical, because (1) the upside of those players is fairly limited according to those who scout and report on prospects and (2) free agency has changed due to the issue raised in the article…that other teams also have more money and they are locking up their best players…leaving mostly older, injury-prone types on the market looking to be overpaid.

“For instance, the Phils supposedly let it be known that they would not pay any of Cliff Lee’s salary if they were to trade him.”

I can’t tell if they were dead set on this, or whether it was simply another negotiating position up for discussion like anything else.

If they wouldn’t have moved Lee for anything less than Bogaerts (which I can’t find fault with), we don’t know if any amount of money would have made the Red Sox part with him. The Sox acquired Peavy because they didn’t give up much in prospects, as much as the friendlier contract.

And, again, the rebuilding process has been going for over a year now:

– they haven’t traded a single prospect worth anything since the first Pence trade 2 years ago
– they had their strongest draft in a decade
– there are currently (if you count Revere who is hurt) 4 regulars 1 starter and all but Papelbon in the bullpen with less than two years major league experience on the roster. the other guys are Chooch, Jimmy, Hamels, Chase and Howard, and two guys who are one year placeholders instead of long term free agents
– they haven’t spent more than $8mm per year on ANYONE in free agency since December of 2011
– MAG was the first foray into a big internatonal signing, which has worked magic for Texas, Oakland and LA.
– they’ve added through draft or trade: Morgan, Martin, Revere, Joseph, Simon, Lino, JP Crawford – guys they DEVELOPED are playing in Philly with Franco on the way

– this (the rebuilding process) all means than the Phillies will most likely be very very good in a few years and that we will have a BETTER chance of winning a title in LESS than the 28 year period between 1980 and 2008.

In other words, this is a DIFFERENT Phillies franchise than the one from the mid-late 80s (save for 1993) to the early 2000s (the Jim Thome signing along with the opening of CBP signaled a positive change for the future).

I agree with the overall consensus that this team will never totally rebuild in the way that the marlins or astros are. But the fact of the matter is that Ruben has shown a complete inability to make smart decisions that improve this team. Holding on to M.Young, D.Young, Ruiz or Papelbon past the Aug 31 deadline would be foolish. That is why I find it so concerning that Ruben did not work harder to move either of those three at the deadline. Because, whether you want to believe it or not this team has no chance this season and it would be wise to let younger players to have the opportunity to play. The Phillies have a lot of younger talent that deserves to get a look this season in terms of pitching Ethan Martin (starting tonight), Mauricio Robles and Greg Smith(not a prospect but has been lights out) deserve a shot. And in terms of position players calling up Cameron Rupp, Cesar Hernandez, Cody Overbeck and Leandro Castro would make sense. Are all of these players ready for the majors? No, but in this season it wouldnt hurt to let them take a crack at it. Not to mention young players would bring a spark and a drive to this team that is completely gone right now.

I really wanted a big trade to happen but the league was stagnent and no one had good offers. I think the Phillies made the right move and they should look at picking up Jacoby Ellesbury and Yoenis Cespedes. Healthy Ryan Howard is better than what is out there 2014.

Not so bad if you add one more power hitter in the lineup. It shift everything. That is why I thought the Phillies should try to pick up Justin Upton. They need one more power bat and they are in the running for the post season.

I love your optimism and I agree that if Howard is healthy and they add a power hitter they can be a decent lineup. But, that is where our agreements end. You mention Ellsbury and Cespedes, Ellsbury is a lefty and not a power hitter. This season he has 5 homers and 35 RBIs, he is now a leadoff guy and that is all and since we have Revere we are good there. Cespedes is under contract till 2016 and would take a ton of prospects to sign, Amaro should have signed him when he had the chance. As for the rest of the line-up Young will not be here and Chooch likely wont be either.

If we add a bat in free agency it has to be a righty and the most likely option is a Hunter Pence reunion. However, that would require the Phillies to surrender a 1st round pick which unless they are in the top 10 will not be protected. If my math is right the Phillies are tied with Seattle and Toronto for who would have the 11th pick (the first unprotected pick). So unless they decide to tank the season it will be tough for them to get a protected top ten pick. I think that they will target a cheaper option that will not cost them draft picks like Corey Hart. This line up needs youth and power and until the Phillies can get a prospect that can be a difference maker in the order, in addition to Dom, they will not have an effective offense.