Broncos said no to Hard Knocks Lard 4-12-12

Douglas LeeApr 12, 2012 7:30 AM

Good Morning, Broncos fans! Justin Bannan is very happy to be back with the team, and he never moved out of town despite playing in St. Louis last season. Says Bannan,

I feel like I belong in Denver. I feel like I have a lot of unfinished business here. I never felt right about leaving. There's a business side of it, and unfortunately that side happened. But it's just nice not having to move again.

I have a lot of pride here. I feel like I belong here. It's hard to explain — I kind of felt like that when I played at CU (University of Colorado). I feel like I belong in Colorado. It's nice to be able to have an opportunity to come back and have a chance to be part of something great.

Andrew Mason figures the ex-Buff will be more effective teaming with Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil (who was injured during Bannan's one season in Denver) in the pass rush, although for what it's worth, PFF has assigned the 11th-year player a slightly subpar pass rush grade in all four years of their existence.

Broncos

Von Miller is bummed by the departure of Tim Tebow but psyched to play with Peyton Manning:

You know, having Peyton Manning, you know he's going to be a coach on and off the field. You know he's going to be able to tell us stuff that we just couldn't do ... point blank last year. Tim just couldn't tell us that stuff last year.

I think the defense just has to gel more. I need to cut down on the mental errors. I want to be the linebacker they drafted me to be. I don't want to take five or six years to do that. I want to be that linebacker right now.

Jeff Legwold continues to suggest every possible draft scenario for Denver, this time discussing a move out of the first round along with some stupid rules he made up about doing so. Plus, he says Cincy DT Derek Wolfe might be a fit for Denver.

Over at PFF, they've done a handy breakdown of defensive personnel package data which finds that Denver played with a 3-3-5 nickel package more than they did their base 4-3-4 grouping.

Chris Hall chatted with Peyton Manning for Broncos TV about his offseason workouts with his new teammates; here's a transcription of Peyton's comments.

Ring of Famer Randy Gradishar is part of a group of over 100 players who have signed on to a lawsuit against the league over concussions; the lead plaintiff is Brent Boyd, the only ex-player to have been diagnosed with CTE while still alive.

San Diego is still waiting for ex-Raiders T Mario Henderson and their own FB Jacob Hester to make up their minds about signing offers with the team; meanwhile, Hester visited Seattle yesterday.

Damn. New Raiders GM Reggie McKenzie is talking way too much sense and doesn't plan on drafting players purely for their 40 times or trading away future draft picks, and he doesn't want his team to be on Hard Knocks, either. I don't know about you, but I am REALLY missing Al Davis right about now.

Cincinnati signed CB Terence Newman, traded LB Keith Rivers to the Giants for a fifth-rounder, and re-signed T Dennis Roland.

Scrapple

Mike Tanier reminds us that the issue of NFL teams putting out bounties on opposing players was a laughing matter just 23 years ago; Jason Whitlock thinks the Saints should hire Dick Vermeil for the year.

I thought it was interesting that JAX stayed in their 4-3-4 defense 45% of the time and their 4-2-5 defense 34% of the time. We were in the 4-3-4 defense 38% of the time and in the 3-3-5 44% plus 4-2-5 5% of the time. What I am getting out of PFF's article plus this discussion is - if JDR set up the defense with his DC, we may be playing more of the time with 4 DL. But then it would depend on the personnel available to us.

I appreciate the discussion about whether Von was considered a DL or LB in our defense formation.

Ted wrote an article about the Packers' vs the Steelers' defense a year ago after their SB game. The Pack had their best personnel on the field with their 2-4-5 package (which they ran 62% of the time in 2011). The Steelers had their best personnel on the field with their base 3-4-4 (which they ran 58% of the time in 2011).

It might come down to getting the best 11 guys on the field and figuring out the formation from there.

Thanks for the Lard, Doug.

Posted by BlackKnigh on 2012-04-12 16:34:09

I'm not surprised that Denver played somewhat more 335 D - many teams are going to a nickel as their default base defense to deal with the pass-oriented league, which is one reason that Denver is so high on Chris Harris, who played well for them as a rookie at nickelback. Not unlike looking for two safeties who can cover (nice pickups on both Mike Adams and CB Tracy Porter, btw), it's just another way to counter the emphasis on the pass.

That doesn't make Miller a DE, though. He's still a LB, still drops into coverage and helps on the run like any Sam does. The biggest difference is that he's more talented and more versatile than most and can rush the passer extremely well, so he's moved around at times and at other times he will have his hand on the ground. Frequently, Ayers just rolls into the LDT slot and Miller stands next to him at the snap. I'm not certain what the issue with Doom playing the run is - he packed on 10 lb of muscle last offseason and handled the run much better last year. He's young enough to continue to improve, and better DT (and Will) play will also help him.

The pickup of Bannan essentially replaces Bunkley, and does so pretty well. Bannan's numbers with PFF are excellent - a +12.4 rating in run defense doesn't grow on trees. Bunkley usually was a 2 down player - McBean can still step in for passing downs as he did last year, if they want. He did a decent job for them. Bannan may also be able to handle those downs, but he usually was a two down guy last year.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2012-04-12 16:28:25

Sorry Von, I have to disagree. Manning isn't great because of his arm, he's great because of his brain. Take Tebow's feet, Cu tler's arm, and Manning's brain to make the ultimate QB. Didn't COBRA try something like this?

Posted by A R on 2012-04-12 13:01:00

Ooops, you are correct, PFF did base off personell not formation. And in that case, I disagree with the premise. Yes I get that a sefety on the LOS is still a safety, not a DLineman. But 3-3-5 with Von at SAM is much different than 4-2-5 with Von at DE. Or if Von is in the 2nd level but shifts to the LOS and puts his hand down... (brain fry)

I agree that its nice to have a DC that's not all about the X and Os. Sure a Jim Johnson double A gap blitz is cool, or He Who Shall No Longer Coach and the overload. But the more I think about it, the more I like zone based defense. It's not exciting, but it's sound. Play man, or play zone, either way you need pass rushers. Those are hard to find and not cheep. Same with man corners. So go cheap at DB and play zone. Keep the whole D facing the ball. Play boring but sound defense and win on execution.

Posted by A R on 2012-04-12 12:23:19

No doubt, broncos. But, the two brothers that were going at it were hilarious!

Posted by John Tomasik on 2012-04-12 12:08:37

A R I get that. Just saying that Denver played 3-3-5 more often than anything else. Also, PFF based their chart on personnel, not formation, so that tells me that Von is a LB to them regardless of formation.I had to re-read the article once already - I'm sure someone who scored better that I did on the reading comp portion of their SATs can summarize that piece better than I did though.

My guess here is that a 3-3-5 is a nickel with Von and a 4-2-5 is a nickel either w/o Von on the field or a nickel w/ Von behind the LOS.

The bottom line here is that Denver has a guy coaching the D who doesn't need to make a living on clever X's & O's and blitzes. I'm excited by the prospects of Miller being coached by JDR, Denver's 2nd biggest off season acquisition.

I like the way that Miller handled the two QBs. He obviously truely liked Tebow, but also acknowledged that Manning will be able to lead the team in ways that Tebow was unable to do.

Posted by DavidInLA on 2012-04-12 12:01:03

One more thing to add, if the defense is in nickel, of course they are expecting pass. They wouldn't be in nickel if they thought the offense was going to run. I'd be intersted to see stats on when Denver was in the nickel, how often it was a pass and how often it was a run.

The rest of the AFC West uses 2 back sets as a base offense. How much of the time do they stay in base though?

Posted by A R on 2012-04-12 12:00:09

But in base 4-3, Von isn't the LDE, he's the SAM. Ayers is the LDE.

"I'm assuming that because of Von Miller's strengths & weaknesses, that Denver's 3-3-5 was really a Nickel with Von playing DE on the D-Line"

Nickel is 5 DBs. Both 3-3-5 and 4-2-5 are nickel. Are you saying that what PFF called 3-3-5 was actually 4-2-5? The have columns on their chart for both. They better have it right, or their article is incorrect and the work they did was wasted.

If you're saying Von can improve on LB skills, I won't argue. If you're saying he shouldn't be DE in base, well, he never was.

Posted by A R on 2012-04-12 11:53:54

Drewthorn, as the brilliant Lana Kane would say, "YUUPPP!"

Posted by blackshirt4broncos on 2012-04-12 11:53:17

Jared Crick

Posted by drewthorn on 2012-04-12 11:34:21

Good thought. I think Doom is going to be a pass rush specialist only for this team soon (passing downs) - hence his contract will then need to be re-negotiated next yr.

We could look at a DE/DT player like Billy Winn, but I think you're right. We might be surprised to find a DE in our first 5 picks.

Posted by Orange_and_Blue on 2012-04-12 11:32:20

Sometimes I'm just amazed Bayliss doesn't wear a clown nose.

He really needs to smoke a doobie and become a little more self aware.

Posted by broncosmontana on 2012-04-12 11:25:39

I hear ya, S7, but there's only so much resource when it comes to filling slots on a team. Because of Manning, I think that the defense isn't the priority it was last year (and would've been had Tebow been the QB). I wouldn't say our team won't win a Super Bowl without a stellar defense, but I'll agree it's less likely. For this year, I'd rather see the priority be the offense. JMHO.

If we move back, I would only want to move back to no later than 33 (my preference to trade with is Rams - unless Rams choose D Martin). We would likely get an extra 3rd rd pick this yr, but I would get creative and either get their for 2nd rd pick next yr plus the #33 pick for #25 (not so creative) or trade #25 and #57 for their #33 and #39 picks. In the latter scenario, we can accumulate more picks with that #39 pick (makes sense to me if D Martin was off the board and we picked Worthy at #33).

Anyway, I can't wait.

Posted by Orange_and_Blue on 2012-04-12 11:14:51

Seems like DT is missing a real opportunity to spend time with the man who could kick his career into high gear. Not sure I understand it. Don't they have strip clubs in Denver?

Posted by Alaskan on 2012-04-12 11:10:23

John Tomasik I'm with you on that, but I know that the defense wants to be an excellent unit, unlike in Indy, where the defense was really only notable if the offense was executing at a high level. That just seems lazy from a front office & coaching perspective.

In that way Manning's career to this point has been somewhat similar to Elway's career from 1983-1995. Not exactly the same, but both players had a decent amount lackluster talent around them (on both sides of the ball) for a lot of years, albeit with a few exceptions (although, how good would Marvin Harrison have been in Cincinnati or Chicago?).

Frankly, I think Manning should have been furious at the front office in Indy for not ever really making a defense more of a priority. Any time a franchise puts all of the pressure on one guy to carry them, it rarely results in rings. Of course there are exceptions, but for Denver to win the SB, the Defense can't just be average.

Just my MO here.

Posted by Super7 on 2012-04-12 11:07:47

LMAO to this comment thread...

Posted by John Tomasik on 2012-04-12 11:03:50

per Vic Lombardi (heard on 104.3 the FAN) -

Demaryius Thomas broke a finger in his left hand last September in practice (on a comeback curl route against Champ), and needed to have a pin inserted (which he played with throughout the year). The pin was removed this offseason, and he is not able to catch/workout with it yet...that is why he is not in Denver catching passes from Manning with Decker.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2012-04-12 11:03:43

According to his Twitter account, making apperances at Atlanta strip clubs and then going to church on Sunday. Every now and then he indicates he's in something called "grind mode".

Posted by Ryan on 2012-04-12 11:01:11

The interview with Manning is exciting. He clearly wants to get going. And Decker (happily, for him and us) seems to be trying to soak up all of the Manning experience he can get. But I have not seen anything saying that Manning could pick DT out of a police lineup.

Anyone know where DT is these days?

Posted by Alaskan on 2012-04-12 10:49:43

Cool post, S7. You might've answered yourself, though. With Peyton (freaking) Manning, the time might be capable of being up a couple or more TD's, which would let JDR utilize the pass rush duo of Von Doom.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2012-04-12 10:47:07

Great PFF article. I'm craving a more Denver-centric look though.

Maybe we all can have a conversation about something that worries me.

-------

I'm assuming that because of Von Miller's strengths & weaknesses, that Denver's 3-3-5 was really a Nickel with Von playing DE on the D-Line (whether or not he had a hand in the sand or not). This sounds like something Ted Bartlett blew my mind with last season at some point.

Aside from the whole we have Peyton (freaking) Manning under center thing, the single most exciting part of 2012 for me is a Jack Del Rio (If I had to choose between Dennis Allen & JDR for DC, I'd take JDR every time) coached defense and what he can get out of Von, Doom, Ayers, Bannan, Warren, and others. Because PFF focused on personnel, not formation, we can't know from the report if Von was in a 3 point stance on the line or up on 2 feet on the line or in a LB stance 3 or 4 yards from the line.

Von might be the best pure pass rusher (never saw Rich Jackson, so I can't say) ever to wear a Broncos uni, but until I see him drop and cover the pass and regularly shed blockers and take down RBs, I'll continue to think that he's an undersized DE. Even Dwight Freeney (who's one of the lighter DE's in the NFL who've had success) weighs a shade under 270, but Von is only 245. I know that Von will develop into a more complete player, I'm just hoping (just as it sounds like he is hoping) that its in 2012. And JDR should be able to speed that process up a bit.

Additionally, when you realize that Doom is only 5'11" 260, you understand why teams has such success running on Denver when they spread us out last year and why Jason Hunter got so much PT later in the season. You can not have the brackets of your D-line at 5'11" 260 and 6'3" 245.

I think that the most comparable player to Dumervil might be (explosive, short size, above average speed, compact/thick body type) Jerome Harrison (PIT) who is 6'0" 250 or so, but Harrison is a LB and can play a little coverage in space too. Pittsburgh's 3-4 gives them the luxury to use Harrison to his fullest extent, but I fear that Denver, moving forward, won't be able to utilize Dumervil in a way that maximizes his strengths.

Denver seems to have LBs that are physically a fit for the 4-3 (6'2" 250 or so is ideal), but in my opinion, having Doom and Von on the field at the same time in anything other than an obvious passing down seems like a recipe for disaster.

I just don't think having stud DTs would still afford Denver the luxury of getting these guys on the field simultaneously unless Denver's up by a few TDs or its 2nd or 3rd and long. In the end, I think Denver may need to move Doom to LB (and that creates a new set of problems because of his coverage ability), switch to a 3-4 (which isn't an option at this time) or trade him to a 3-4 team.

A part of me thinks that DE is just as much of a priority need as DT.

If you were JDR and Fox, how would you solve this issue, or is it an issue that needs solving?

S7

Posted by Super7 on 2012-04-12 10:35:55

Gruden never gushes over players. Ever.

Posted by Ryan on 2012-04-12 10:25:02

All good mate. Sure it was just a keyboard issue. I like Turbin...got some nice upside!

Posted by boydy2669 on 2012-04-12 10:21:18

That article about HC/FO egos ignoring the advice of scouts hits home when recalling the last time the Broncos selected at player at #25.

As fascinating as Gruden's QB camp is, he never really says anything truly intuitive about the QB's afterward. He echos the same concern everyone else has (height, experience) while mostly gushing about their upside. Wish he'd throw down some real insight, he has such a unique opportunity to evaluate these kids.