I feel that these last few years have seen a much broader supply of drivers that IMO belong in F1 than ever before, so does this mean we should have a few more teams or perhaps increase the number of cars per team?Also, will next year see for the first time a grid without even one “bad” driver, as HRT (read: Narain) isn’t on the grid anymore?

Personally I can’t think of any unworthy drivers next year, while I can easily count at least 5 drivers that IMO deserve to be there but aren’t! So what's up with that?

Depends who you ask. I'm sure people will say Hamilton/Vettel/Grosjean/Massa/Di Resta/Perez/Maldonado aren't worthy of being in F1 because of their inadequacies or something. Basically whoever someone doesn't like. Personally I think the grid has got some of the best talent going into 2013. I can't speak much for the unknown quantities such as Gutierrez or Bottas though. I'm not expecting much from Esteban.

_________________"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

I feel that these last few years have seen a much broader supply of drivers that IMO belong in F1 than ever before, so does this mean we should have a few more teams or perhaps increase the number of cars per team?Also, will next year see for the first time a grid without even one “bad” driver, as HRT (read: Narain) isn’t on the grid anymore?

Personally I can’t think of any unworthy drivers next year, while I can easily count at least 5 drivers that IMO deserve to be there but aren’t! So what's up with that?

To be honest I don't think anyone in F1 at the moment currently doesn't deserve to be. The weakest are probably Senna, Ricciardo, Vergne and Di Resta, and neither of them are especially terrible Narain style, just slow and/or distinctly average.

To be honest I don't think anyone in F1 at the moment currently doesn't deserve to be. The weakest are probably Senna, Ricciardo, Vergne and Di Resta, and neither of them are especially terrible Narain style, just slow and/or distinctly average.

But even the 4 you've mentioned have won races in premier single seater races, 3 have even won championships.

To be honest I don't think anyone in F1 at the moment currently doesn't deserve to be. The weakest are probably Senna, Ricciardo, Vergne and Di Resta, and neither of them are especially terrible Narain style, just slow and/or distinctly average.

But even the 4 you've mentioned have won races in premier single seater races, 3 have even won championships.

Yeah that's kinda my point. Even the weakest in F1 at the moment deserve to be there. Narain was the only one in 2012 that didn't and he's gone now. And we still have the likes of Senna, Petrov, Sutil, Heidfeld, Kobayashi, Rubens, Sato without seats and there's some pretty impressive talent in that list too.

Its amazing having a grid consisting of such talent, go back as recently as 2006 and you have people like Ide, Montiero, Albers, Speed etc. I can say theres no-one currently signed for next year that hasn't got a podium or I cant imagine ever getting one although Chilton/ Gultierez/ Bottas are unproven.

To be honest I don't think anyone in F1 at the moment currently doesn't deserve to be. The weakest are probably Senna, Ricciardo, Vergne and Di Resta, and neither of them are especially terrible Narain style, just slow and/or distinctly average.

But even the 4 you've mentioned have won races in premier single seater races, 3 have even won championships.

Yeah that's kinda my point. Even the weakest in F1 at the moment deserve to be there. Narain was the only one in 2012 that didn't and he's gone now. And we still have the likes of Senna, Petrov, Sutil, Heidfeld, Kobayashi, Rubens, Sato without seats and there's some pretty impressive talent in that list too.

Sums up my point perfectly!! Has there ever before been a similar situation?

Its amazing having a grid consisting of such talent, go back as recently as 2006 and you have people like Ide, Montiero, Albers, Speed etc. I can say theres no-one currently signed for next year that hasn't got a podium or I cant imagine ever getting one although Chilton/ Gultierez/ Bottas are unproven.

Its amazing having a grid consisting of such talent, go back as recently as 2006 and you have people like Ide, Montiero, Albers, Speed etc. I can say theres no-one currently signed for next year that hasn't got a podium or I cant imagine ever getting one although Chilton/ Gultierez/ Bottas are unproven.

Even these 3 have won races in major single seater series

That dosnt count for anything come F1, look at Liuzzi and Pantano etc. You maybe top of the pack in GP2/ whatever but you are right back at the bottom when you get to F1 until you prove yourself.

Its amazing having a grid consisting of such talent, go back as recently as 2006 and you have people like Ide, Montiero, Albers, Speed etc. I can say theres no-one currently signed for next year that hasn't got a podium or I cant imagine ever getting one although Chilton/ Gultierez/ Bottas are unproven.

To be fair Montiero and Albers weren't that bad. Ide and Speed though... shudder...

Its amazing having a grid consisting of such talent, go back as recently as 2006 and you have people like Ide, Montiero, Albers, Speed etc. I can say theres no-one currently signed for next year that hasn't got a podium or I cant imagine ever getting one although Chilton/ Gultierez/ Bottas are unproven.

To be fair Montiero and Albers weren't that bad. Ide and Speed though... shudder...

IMO neither Gutierrez or Chilton has demonstrated anything outstanding in their careers to date. Make no mistake, these two have made it to F1 solely because of their backing. Bottas on the other hand has insignificant backing, Williams believe that he has something special and certainly his FP1 performances last season have backed that up. Hopefully at least Force India will go for talent (as they have said they will), Caterham will undoubtedly go for money though at least they have the impressive Pic in the other car.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

Its amazing having a grid consisting of such talent, go back as recently as 2006 and you have people like Ide, Montiero, Albers, Speed etc. I can say theres no-one currently signed for next year that hasn't got a podium or I cant imagine ever getting one although Chilton/ Gultierez/ Bottas are unproven.

Even these 3 have won races in major single seater series

That dosnt count for anything come F1, look at Liuzzi and Pantano etc. You maybe top of the pack in GP2/ whatever but you are right back at the bottom when you get to F1 until you prove yourself.

Agreed but they got the results deserving of a chance, not sure in Pantano's case that he got a proper crack at it, but then if they don't show much they get kicked out

To be honest I don't think anyone in F1 at the moment currently doesn't deserve to be. The weakest are probably Senna, Ricciardo, Vergne and Di Resta, and neither of them are especially terrible Narain style, just slow and/or distinctly average.

But even the 4 you've mentioned have won races in premier single seater races, 3 have even won championships.

Yeah that's kinda my point. Even the weakest in F1 at the moment deserve to be there. Narain was the only one in 2012 that didn't and he's gone now. And we still have the likes of Senna, Petrov, Sutil, Heidfeld, Kobayashi, Rubens, Sato without seats and there's some pretty impressive talent in that list too.

Sums up my point perfectly!! Has there ever before been a similar situation?

The cars these days have less power and more grip, so it's easier for rookies to start competing.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

Raikkonen was hugely impressive though pre F1 Just inexperienced. I agree success in lower formula is no guarantee of success in F1. Vergne was bad in quali, very bad actually. That does not take away from Ricciado though who was beating Williams, Saubers and force indias etc in quali where most people would agree that the Rosso was slower than all those cars. I think both Ricciardo and Vergne are going to have good careers in F1 but it is very hard to judge them. Look at it this way - had the TR been 0.75 quicker then I think we would all be praising both drivers on superb debut seasons mixing it ahead of more established stars.

The calibre of that grid isn't really that different from the current one.

Only 5 are still on the grid, although in 2010-2012, 11 of them have been on the grid as it has been fairly musical chairs.

Back in 2005 Kubica, Hamilton, Vettel were the hotshots.

I still remember seeing Vettel race in the formula BMW at Donington or some other track. I remember thinking "you're pretty good".

You do have to remember though that some of those names there were not yet at their peak (Massa, Webber, Possibly Button and Heidfeld as well) and were just like Perez today, fast and showing talent but also making mistakes wheras contrastingly others (Coulthard, Villenueve, Barrichello and both Schumacher's) were the opposite and past their best, admitedly they were still good but young hotshots like Kimi and Alonso were better. And I would say the bottom four plus maybe Klien have never really impressed and arent at the calibre of drivers in simmilar teams in 2012 like Pic or De la Rosa. So while it appears that year was good because it had lots of good names, only maybe four were really capable of winning with a few old hands who still could on ocassion impress (Fisi, Trulli) and some rising stars compared to the vast aray of drivers still improving that we have now.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

Raikkonen was hugely impressive though pre F1 Just inexperienced. I agree success in lower formula is no guarantee of success in F1. Vergne was bad in quali, very bad actually. That does not take away from Ricciado though who was beating Williams, Saubers and force indias etc in quali where most people would agree that the Rosso was slower than all those cars. I think both Ricciardo and Vergne are going to have good careers in F1 but it is very hard to judge them. Look at it this way - had the TR been 0.75 quicker then I think we would all be praising both drivers on superb debut seasons mixing it ahead of more established stars.

depends how you define slower the had much better straight line speed than a lot of cars on the grid.

The calibre of that grid isn't really that different from the current one.

Only 5 are still on the grid, although in 2010-2012, 11 of them have been on the grid as it has been fairly musical chairs.

Back in 2005 Kubica, Hamilton, Vettel were the hotshots.

I still remember seeing Vettel race in the formula BMW at Donington or some other track. I remember thinking "you're pretty good".

You do have to remember though that some of those names there were not yet at their peak (Massa, Webber, Possibly Button and Heidfeld as well) and were just like Perez today, fast and showing talent but also making mistakes wheras contrastingly others (Coulthard, Villenueve, Barrichello and both Schumacher's) were the opposite and past their best, admitedly they were still good but young hotshots like Kimi and Alonso were better. And I would say the bottom four plus maybe Klien have never really impressed and arent at the calibre of drivers in simmilar teams in 2012 like Pic or De la Rosa. So while it appears that year was good because it had lots of good names, only maybe four were really capable of winning with a few old hands who still could on ocassion impress (Fisi, Trulli) and some rising stars compared to the vast aray of drivers still improving that we have now.

There were less cars then, and Jordan/Minardi weren't really as credible as Marussia/Caterham. If you took the best 16 drivers I wouldn't see any difference, it's just that there were more experienced drivers and less hotshots than we have now. You're wrong about Klien, he is good.

Also look at Raikkonen's pole lap from Istanbul 2005, or Monaco 2005, they had more power and less grip and had to work harder. Hence you needed experience.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

I'm just wondering what you class as pre-F1 success for drivers such as Ricciardo and Vergne as in what more could they have done and which drivers in F1 have had better junior careers? Certainly drivers like Kobayashi and Alguersuari, who you rate, had poorer junior records than those two.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

Raikkonen was hugely impressive though pre F1 Just inexperienced. I agree success in lower formula is no guarantee of success in F1. Vergne was bad in quali, very bad actually. That does not take away from Ricciado though who was beating Williams, Saubers and force indias etc in quali where most people would agree that the Rosso was slower than all those cars. I think both Ricciardo and Vergne are going to have good careers in F1 but it is very hard to judge them. Look at it this way - had the TR been 0.75 quicker then I think we would all be praising both drivers on superb debut seasons mixing it ahead of more established stars.

Not really Kimi would a minor single seater series in by far the best team, he joined the team after aborting the previous season halfway through because he couldn't beat the drivers who were driving for the said team. What was impressive was his managers getting him a F1 test and how well he performed in that test.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

Raikkonen was hugely impressive though pre F1 Just inexperienced. I agree success in lower formula is no guarantee of success in F1. Vergne was bad in quali, very bad actually. That does not take away from Ricciado though who was beating Williams, Saubers and force indias etc in quali where most people would agree that the Rosso was slower than all those cars. I think both Ricciardo and Vergne are going to have good careers in F1 but it is very hard to judge them. Look at it this way - had the TR been 0.75 quicker then I think we would all be praising both drivers on superb debut seasons mixing it ahead of more established stars.

depends how you define slower the had much better straight line speed than a lot of cars on the grid.

Only because they had poor downforce to hold them back, kings of downforce Red Bull have always had poor straight line speed, i think its plain to see what is more important.

TBH I think that Pic, Ricciardo, Vergne, Chilton and Gutierrez are not up to the grade and there are 5 drivers who aren't on the grid that deserve to be and would all beat these five, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Sutil, Kovalainen & Buemi.

Also if we are giving a new driver a chance this year it should have been Valsecchi or Razia instead or who was chosen.

How can you possibly Judge Ricciardo and Vergne? There really is noway of knowing. If we accept the Toro Rosso as the worst of the main competitors then Ricciardo was working miracles in quali. Chilton and Guitierrez have not even had a race yet so I don't know how you could possibly judge them either.

Or Vergne - and this is slightly more likely - had abysmal qualifying sessions most of the season...

But, I agree with you. It's hugely unfair to discredit Chilton and Gutierrez, and to an extent Ricciardo and Vergne so quickly. Many drivers have proved that pre-F1 lack of success is not a true indicator of a driver's abilities in this sport. As with most job-related opportunities in life, it's who you know that is the deciding factor. Perhaps Chilton and Gutierrez shouldn't be stepping up to F1 race seats, that's arguable with other drivers at lower tiers looking potentially better (e.g. Calado, Razia, Frijns) but they are and should be judged solely on their craft when they've started racing in it. Ultimately, they have sufficient funding and talent to warrant their places.

I would love to see Kobayashi and Alguersuari get seats back - and though a pipe dream, Heidfeld to drive for McLaren - because I think they all deserve to be in the sport and are probably better drivers, but remember that, and I know this is a heavily-used argument, Liuzzi looked awesome before F1 and didn't exactly sparkle. Whereas Raikkonen almost didn't get his superlicence.

Raikkonen was hugely impressive though pre F1 Just inexperienced. I agree success in lower formula is no guarantee of success in F1. Vergne was bad in quali, very bad actually. That does not take away from Ricciado though who was beating Williams, Saubers and force indias etc in quali where most people would agree that the Rosso was slower than all those cars. I think both Ricciardo and Vergne are going to have good careers in F1 but it is very hard to judge them. Look at it this way - had the TR been 0.75 quicker then I think we would all be praising both drivers on superb debut seasons mixing it ahead of more established stars.

depends how you define slower the had much better straight line speed than a lot of cars on the grid.