Master Jademus Sreg wrote: The original Defense of the Ancients was impressive at a time when custom objects through slk editing was the very pinnacle of modding, but that doesn't mean it was a good map.

Have you compared Rival Nations and friends to DOTA? The original DOTA still had a superior terrain set up along with far more unique spells/abilities at the time and kept the distance from closing.

The problem with looking at a map through a map makers perspective is that you stop seeing a map for what it was intended to be, a game; and therefore only look at things that are based off of creation. While Eul's version may not have been very balanced nor amazing compared to today's, I don't even think TGS/Rival Nations/etc with the exception of Keys of Sealing had something like the secret water fall that early in ROC. And Keys was TFT I believe.

Considering how badly many players abused exploits/loopholes in custom wc3 maps, and how terrible wc3 maps/sc2 maps are in general, if I ever did show up it would be strictly for melee and melee only.

You just have to yell at Mucky/Cheesechild/Negi in vent a lot and everything should be fine.

Cheese/Negi I rarely saw at SS and Mucky usually wasn't doing anything like that, its the other people that don't even bother with vent in the first place turning it from a game into an entirely 1 sided boring match.

I cannot make that comparison, since I've never played Rival Nations. Schedule it for the next SS. =)

I see your point and can admit a bias in that I judge maps on their technical components first, and gameplay second. But it is the technical components of a map that I find most interesting, so naturally it is that toward which I am most critical or with which I am most impressed.

That's your right as a mapmaker, but keep in mind that unless your purpose in creating maps is to amaze yourself over how well you plugged in objects and triggers, it ultimately comes back down to you know, making a game people will want to play.

And that is why a gamer's perspective is still more important than a map designers. And is pretty much what made Blizzard famous to begin with no? GAME PLAY...THAT'S FUN?

That's one of the biggest hurdles between an amateur and a professional.

I noticed that Aiursrage2k was mostly interested in maps that made use of fancy trigger effects, like his experimental top-down shooter, MaD Balls Arena, and my own experimental battleships map. When he showed up at SS, that is.

You're right, of course, and in my experience, I focus on the quality of the gameplay when playing games where I find it very impractical to mod. When I develop, the design for the gameplay comes first, and I build everything around that. But when I play other people's maps, I focus mostly on the technical aspects while usually finding the gameplay of the map unappealing. Clearly, I would benefit from an adjustment to my perspective, and I do that by playing.

(Side note: When I mention technical components, I don't mean flashy shit, but rather whatever they were intended to do, they do well; in practice, this means good design, proper balance, and efficient scripting. A failure of these technical components will result in a failure of gameplay.)