Comments on: If you judge a players’ character, you have to acknowledge the forces which shaped his choiceshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/
Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball.Sun, 02 Aug 2015 22:37:30 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: raysfan1http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-424409
Thu, 10 Jan 2013 02:26:36 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-424409Aw,c’mon, that was funny!
]]>By: thegreatstonefacehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423653
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 16:26:12 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423653…while it’s true that context is awfully important…that doesn’t change the fact that each individual made their own choice, and are thus responsible for the choices that they made and the repurcussions that they face.

arguing otherwise is absurdly disingenuous.

(shrug)

craig’s a lawyer by training, right? wud never guess…

]]>By: abaird2012http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423566
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:00:40 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423566Good pont in there — I remember when it became apparent that steroids were rampant in the NFL, that the narrative for baseball was, “nah, they wouldn’t do you any good because you don’t wanna get all musclebound — gotta stay loose!”

Up until 1998 or so, anyway …

]]>By: makeham98http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423538
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 14:32:29 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423538The Mitchell Report singles out players from a very narrow group of teams linked mainly by a very reliable Lite Beer expert. His “evidence”, mainly his getting po’d at Clemens, has been discredited.

The Mitchell Report is anecdotal at best. Canseco was more reliable.

]]>By: nbjayshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423495
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:40:59 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423495And if you know ANYTHING about us Canadians, you know we use (and abuse) our livers more than any other internal organ we own.
]]>By: simon94022http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423493
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:35:14 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423493The problem is nobody knows what any player’s moral choices actually were.

How does anyone know that Frank Thomas or Craig Biggio or Jack Morris or Cal Ripken were “clean”? This is simply an assumption.

Verducci himself makes the case for Bagwell as a probable PED user, but then absurdly votes for him under the “not proven” theory, while refusing to vote for “known PED users.”. But other than the tiny number of players who have confessed to PED use, who has been “proven” and by what standard of evidence?

All this talk of judging character assumes we can know who used PEDs and who didn’t. We will never know either.

I’m sorry, but none of the factors you point to can extinguish moral agency. Doubtless external factors and pressure can reduce one’s moral culpability, but no one forced anyone to do steroids or hgh.

]]>By: APBA Guyhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423452
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:05:14 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423452It’s interesting to see the parallels in professional cycling to those in baseball. Cycling has been on a veritable crusade to go back in time and cleanse itself. And the comments above about how if you didn’t use steroids in baseball you were viewed as a bad teammate, are supported by the group dynamics in cycling. When the common ethos is cheating, if you choose not to cheat, you are an object of suspicion and therefor not one of us, not one of the team. This dynamic is well documented primarily on Armstrong’s teams, and also on other cycling teams.

So you have to believe there were two layers at work in baseball: the individual one, ie Barry Bonds refusing to take a back seat to Sosa and McGwire. And also the team one: are you one of us, or not? This combination of forces helps explain why so many chose to juice, and why some teams, like the A’s of the late 80’s and early 90’s, had such depth of users called out by the Mitchell Report. It’s part of the context Craig talks about in his post.

]]>By: Nobody's Elfhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423440
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:38:48 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423440There are layers of complexity here. Suppose Biggio or Bagwell were clean (and that’s a good assumption). They had to compete against the likes of Clemens and Bonds and a cast of thousands on the juice. Does that diminish their accomplishments…or magnify them?

And just how far back does this go? Shouldn’t, say, Rickey Henderson, be under some kind of suspicion? Look at how chiseled that guy was. Was it natural?

Look a Maddux. He didn’t LOOK like a steroid user. But look at HIS numbers. How were they possible?

This is all too sticky. To be hiding behind the “moral” argument is a bit chicken.

]]>By: bigsuedehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423438
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:35:19 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423438Yea- the context in which the players who were doing the steriods went WAAAAAAAY out of their way to make sure no one knew about it. These players didn’t openly take these drugs- they knew it was wrong- they knew it was cheating.

And it is complete BS that the teams knew and were encouraging it. I am an A’s fan- I knew some that worked in the low levels of the front office. No one thought back in the 90’s that people were using steriods because everyone thought it didnt help- it didnt occur to anyone.

Finally- if you let steriod users in- you diminish Frank Thomas. Frank Thomas should have been WORSHIPPED by the whole country- in the context of the history of baseball- he was really impressive- but with steriods he was never in conversations about the best in baseball.

I think too many people here dont like the thought that what they watched for 10-15 years was all a lie. I understand that the A’s championship in 1990 is meaningless- that my heroes of McGwire and Canseco were nothing but frauds. Others here should learn to deal with it- instead of trying to rationalize celebrating cheating

]]>By: cur68http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423364
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 02:08:25 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423364I’m using it, eh?
]]>By: raysfan1http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423357
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 02:01:15 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423357Hoover sucks
]]>By: simon94022http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423355
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:57:53 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423355Verducci is a fine writer. But at the end of the day he is arguing that Jack Morris is a Hall of Dame pitcher, and Roger Clemens is not.

He also acknowledges circumstantial evidence that indicates Jeff Bagwell was likely a PED user — then votes for Bagwell anyway under the “not proven” theory. How many HOF candidates are PROVEN PED users? What is the evidence against Barry Bonds other than circumstantial? Does being named in the Mitchell report constitute “proof?” How about a positive test — will Verducci vote for Ryan Braun 10 tears from now?

If you refuse to vote for PED users you have a choice:

(1) reject only those “proven” by some sub-judicial standard to have used, and thereby vote for at least some likely users anyway.

Or

(2). Reject anybody you personally suspect of using, and thereby block the admission of worthy clean players (while still almost certainly voting for PED users you never suspected).

This is a loser’s game, played by group-thinking writers who fail the basic tests of logical reasoning.

]]>By: raysfan1http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423352
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:55:20 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423352But you signed a liver donor card.
]]>By: cur68http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423340
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:06:11 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423340Hands off my liver.
]]>By: bh192012http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423334
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:58:44 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423334So if we ever make a hall of best civilian drivers, I’ll be sure to take the alleged and proven cases of speeding appropriately. It’s one thing to speed a little (up to 3 times normal testosterone) but when your car body starts to change shape into a hot rod, cops will take notice. Then you find yourself actively avoiding the cops, and you know what you’re doing is wrong.

For me there is an easy hard line in the sand, if you are in any way shape or form, hiding what you’re doing, you know it’s wrong (or unlawful) and worth hiding. When there is a tray of drugs next to the dugout, the speeding analogy works. Anything else is at least like a Marijuana or petty theft analogy, where the only time you get in trouble is if the authority is upset with you and has nothing better to do. However it can still screw up your record and make getting a job harder, or in this case getting into the hall.

]]>By: Nobody's Elfhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423327
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:24:37 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423327Sorry, but the whole thing smacks of hypocrisy coming from Verducci or any sportswriter for that matter. They were part of the steroid problem. They knew about it well before 2000 — before Caminiti, before Clemen’s trial, before Bonds’ record, etc. They knew about it before Sosa-McGwire in 1998. They knew as far back as when McGwire hit his 49 bombs as a rookie.

They perpetuated the era by not protesting it then. They were as complicit as the owners, players and fans in the whole deal. So who are they to moralize now and say this or that person shouldn’t make the Hall of Fame?

Seems to me the time has come for Hall of Fame voting to get taken out of the hands of 600 well-paid hypocrites.

]]>By: unclemosesgreenhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423318
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:51:35 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423318Excellent piece – and I’d even take it a step further. There was also tremendous peer pressure to juice. I will be called a lot of names for saying this – but screw it – it’s the internet – I’ve been called a lot of names already – Guys who refused to juice were looked upon as bad teammates. Flies in the ointment. Monkeys in the wrench. Not just by authority figures, but by TEAMMATES. Viewed as loss accumulators instead of victory warriors. Thought of as soft and lacking in testicular fortitude.
]]>By: brazcubashttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423314
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:40:32 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423314http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/home-runs-have-made-their-return-to-mlb/

It’s not nearly as clear cut as you’d like it to be, the increase in strikeouts over the past decade+ has possibly contributed as much to the decline of total home runs, as improved drug testing has. If you look at rate numbers (in the above article HR/contact), instead of HR totals, the decline is not nearly as obvious.

]]>By: Jonny 5http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423311
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:36:49 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423311The HOF has become a sideshow thanks to many BBWA members competing for the most hits, clicks, links, and fwds. I don’t care who gets in and who doesn’t or the reasoning behind it anymore, I’m sorry but I don’t. Sure I’ll bring the kid there soon and maybe some grandchildren if I’m lucky one day, but I don’t really care who is in there and who isn’t anymore. It’s a sideshow and it doesn’t matter. I’m sure most ball players take it as an honor to be inducted and relish it, good for them, I’m glad it worked out for them.
]]>By: sabatimushttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423307
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:31:07 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423307Yes, i.e. nothing every happens in a vacuum. Except a Hoover.
]]>By: sabatimushttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423305
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:26:43 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423305Yes: Quid pro quo, Doctor.
]]>By: tigerprezhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423302
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:07:00 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423302Good point. There were doubtlessly some guys who fizzled out at Triple A because they chose not to roid up. Of course, it’s not difficult to understand why someone would choose to use PEDs when they stood to make millions of dollars and gain fame and respect — especially given what then seemed like a total lack of possible repurcussions. But it’s one thing to understand the context of using PEDs and another to celebrate and absolve those who did them because of that context. Would you apply that kind of reasoning to the guys on Wall Street who caused the financial meltdown through their reckless behavior? Everyone was doing it, right? It was encouraged and they were rewarded for it.
]]>By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutragedhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423299
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:03:44 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423299There’s one giant [citation needed] for your comment. Lots of stuff is flat out wrong (the chemistry regarding amphetamines lack of effect on hitters), steroids directly affecting HR production, etc.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423291
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:49:15 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423291That’s not the correct analogy. It is more akin to speeding. Everyone speeds at some time. You get where you are going quicker, you see many other people speeding, no one is getting pulled over, and you just passed a cop who didn’t pull over the people that just whipped past you….so you choose to break the law in part because many others are doing it and you just saw authority choose not to punish them.

Players knew that people knew…hell, many (e.g. Dykstra) joked about steroid use publicly in the early 90s. Nothing happened. Players knew who was using. They knew the clubs knew. No one was being punished or questioned. So they made a choice.

]]>By: louhudson23http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423275
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:24:07 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423275@Kevin,the reason is that in football,there is no evidence of steroids blowing up football’s record book. However much stronger or faster that steroids make a football player,there is no explosion of 3,000 yard rushers,35 sack defensive ends or any other distortion of the game.Much like greenies in baseball,there is no discernible effect on the performance of the player,at least in terms of production and altering the way the game is played.Steroids had a direct and obvious effect on hitters production. Like they do in weightlifting and track and field. Records fall and non users are shutout.Why they effect hitters may not be exactly clear,but they most assuredly did so. The herculean feats of Bonds,Mcgwire,Sosa were the extreme,but the overall explosion of 40hr and 50 hr seasons as well as overall hr production was through the roof. They changed the way the game was played. Pitchers may have benefited from them as well,but not by 120 mph pitching staffs or proliferation of 30 win seasons. It was fake. It was wrestling. And now HR production has dropped precipitously. They still play in smaller parks,and the players are as year round fit and strong as ever(sans the juice) so where did all the HR’s go? Why is defense important again,speed a commodity once more? Because the juicer’s have become fewer and farther between….how can we know…..count the HR’s …..
]]>By: rich7041http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423273
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:21:46 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423273Two points?

…Surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our four…no… “

]]>By: alang3131982http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423268
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:17:41 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423268Maybe fans care more? I dont think football fans care….their Hall of Fame isnt really about numbers, whereas baseball is? Baseball has more historical numbers?
]]>By: alang3131982http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423265
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:14:03 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423265I think the point is that — there was absolutely no one saying the choice was wrong. Inherent to drugs/illegal substances is obviously that it is wrong, but it seems like clubs, the media, trainers, fans, etc. treated the use of PEDs as underage drinking of perhaps smoking pot — a lot of people dont really see that as an immoral act, which makes it easier for individuals inclined to do those activities to do so. Basically, where was the moral police when this was happening?
]]>By: hsven1887http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/if-you-judge-a-players-character-you-have-to-acknowledge-the-forces-which-shaped-his-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-423258
Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:12:01 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=282748#comment-423258But this isn’t about criminal acts or punishment for criminal acts, it’s just about HOF voting and how to judge a player’s character. This isn’t black/white, there are plenty of nuances in play.

Besides, even when considering the punishment for criminal acts the situation that led to it will be considered. If there is plenty of peer pressure to break into Craig’s home and steal his TV, the guy who only tags along will get a shorter sentence than the instigator.