Something we've done in this area is to find venues that will take a chance on something new on an off night or on off hours (Sundays, Mondays, Tuesdays), charge a low cover and provide a lot of bang for the buck. The object, of course, is not to make money, but to get a foothold at the venue, promote and grow interest.

Venues book based on 'draw', that's the bottom line. If you have 5-8 performers', play 1/2 hour apiece, charge a matinee price, and each performer can draw at least 10 people to attend and pay, the venue will have you back.

An outdoor thing, does require cover or at least rent-a-tent
(downside is that a beefy sound system is needed) for free, another great way to promote. You need an area with bathroom facilities, it's my impression Philly has more public spaces that could be available for this kind of thing (but maybe I'm wrong). Or piggyback on a larger cultural/art/music event where there's a lot to choose from._________________Utenzil
http://utenzil.com

Well . .. .Meteor 3 wasn't there . . .thats the name I perform under . .. Its just me, Seth from Evolution of Sound (History of Recorded Sound) . . .I could go further into what Meteor 3 means to me, but you'd all think I was crazier than Stockhausen! And I just may be! hehehehehe

Im glad to join the hub of this community and offer up my first post ;]

Not to be off topic .
Greg and I were talking outside with someone that I don't recall about the different venues and outlets for electronic music in the area.There is the GTMBA,Feedback series,PEMAF,Cosmic Coffeehouse,
in the local Philadelphia area. Greg also stated that there is a Gallery in the Stroudsburg area.
I think that there are enough electro-music members in the local area to organize something other.Maybe electro-music Concert series That area artists could organize.Similar to Gregs Pandemonium Symposium.
A quarterly concert series that showcases area performers as the above outlets do.
I know organising such a series would be a big task,but if we can pull off such a great event once yearly why not something similar quarterly or even monthly.We would sell tickets and use the money to finance electro-musics' yearly event where ever it may be.
Responses welcomed.

I think this is a GREAT idea, and I'd be thrilled to offer up the Cosmic Coffeehouse space for a bigger event. Part of the problem maintaining these shows is that a lot of work goes in for almost no response/attendance. Like EM06, we're mostly playing for ouselves, and, while the electro-community is cool, our niche doesn't translate well into getting the general public to attend. This has been my continually-frustrating experience with the Cosmic Coffeehouse events. Here are these incredible musicians playing for NOTHING and very few people care!

PERHAPS (and I'd be willing to try this) it'd be helpful to run some of these independant events (my CC, PEMAF, etc) under the moniker of electro-music.com in order to build a "brand" and more public awareness as a true music series that occurs monthly/quarterly at different venues. That way, we ALL share/help/contribute and reap the benefits, expand geographically, and get more recognition.

With a little more HELP from our collective partnership, the strain of putting on larger events would not fall to the usual 2 or 3 people. I've been wanting to expand the CC (hell, there's a whole second floor with a STAGE at the Crosswicks Community House!), but instead I've had to cut it back because of the lack of volunteers. I do NOT want to give it up, and this idea may be a way to solve that problem as well as expand the electro-music event to another level.

More than my $.02 (and a little off the topic...I blame MV) but it's something I could see supporting.

1. i'm not sure attracting "video students" would serve us well. students tend to be students...in the case of the music we don't seem to be combing the local conservatories or art schools to find folks doing innovative things. i do tend to like the idea of offering a few tracks ahead of time as a "video contest", but i would be skeptical of finding students that are nearly in the same cataglory of greg, hong, or doctor t for live interactive performance. one of doctor t's points in his talk was that a young person starting out simply doesn't have 30 years worth of images and video to use as source material. unless we want endless clips from "fantasia" and "war of the worlds", i think this is very importnat to consider. i would love to see more students involved in our community in general, but we seem to be generally non-academic in focus (and i think that is a good thing). the addition of fancy equipment is not always a good thing...i don't want to put anyone down, but the sound in the gallery suffered by adding gear and trying to eq the room "properly", and there was much less visibility for the audience when additional video equipment was added....this is stuff we can _all_ learn from.

2. i don't think anyone anticipated how good the videos would be at em06 (i play with doctor t all the time, but i didn't know how good hong and greg's stuff was). now that the precedent has been set, i expect that next year we can get performers that want video to submit some sample material to the video artists before the event...this way the video artists know what to expect, and can be more prepared to match the music.

3. video without the music: i know that at least from doctor t's (and my) perspective, the interaction with the music is important....i don't think he has ever put out a video tape or dvd that had no soundtrack, nor would he do a live performance without a soundtrack (although a "video installation" might happen). the video is inspired by the music (and in a perfect situaiton, the music is also inspired by the video), and it doesn't really exist on it's own. you can watch a dvd with the sound off, but it would never be produced in silence.

3. i really think that being able to offer musicians a high quality recording with video can be a draw (after all, how much would it cost to get someone to do a video accompanyment for a recording that is of such high image quality and doesn't include material from tv, movies that would require clearance to release or broadcast)?

4. many of the performances are not terrilby interesting to watch intently (this has been talked about many times...tweaking knobs and laptops is simply not exciting to watch). having video in many cases is, i think a plus....adding a live camera feed to the mix (as noted earlier) would spice things up considerably.

5. perhaps a form of "advertising" could be a public access cable show (something we have been talking about with our own projects). we could produce 20-30 "episodes" from a single electro-music event if we recorded anything. most public access stations have an inexpensive membership fee, and then you can put a show on the schedule. if we (as a community) did all the post production and distributed the dvd's to performers and member of electro-music, we should be able to get the show on at least 50 public access stations without breaking a sweat. there would be a few legal things to work out, but this seems almost a no brainer. edit each concert down to 30min of video with music, add captions and such and it's a done deal. remember, people still buy dvd's.

mmm, i think it overly optomistic to think that we can run smaller events that are profitable enough to pay for a larger event....if that were the case, we would all be renting out venues in order to make a little money.

a better idea (i think) is more "salon" style house parties that are webcast. the em nye event was great, and we did another one from our home after the analog heaven event...we must have had 40 folks over here, and some listening on the net around the world. a party like this is basically free with no renting venues.

I appreciate your comments regarding the video DeKnow, and its good to get some insight from the artists perspective . . . The question about combining media in performance is a difficult one I've been thinking about for years . . . . .When the mind encounters multiple media, whether its someone talking to you while you read, or adding video to sound, the mind does not process both streams at once, instead what happens is the mind switches back and forth quickly to absorb a little of each stream . .. . .given this, to fully take in a piece of art conveyed in one media, it needs to be appreciated on its own . .. .if the piece of art is mutliple media streams then let those streams coalesce . . .

I know our suggestions are all well-meaning, and our opinions have been solicited. It’s easy in hindsight to suggest all sorts of things. But most of us are totally unaware of how Howard and Greg go about getting things like the Nord demo guy; how they determined the structure and order of performances, etc. My opinion is that this massive undertaking was put together beautifully. If we look at it as a sort of living, breathing event that will continue to evolve, our suggestions are fine, and we have to trust that Howard and Greg will make their decisions without being forced into compromising their vision.

Bringing in more of the general public would be wonderful. Admittedly, this type of music can be an acquired taste, but there’s definitely an untapped fan base out there. From a marketing standpoint, it’s unrealistic to believe that people outside a thirty to forty mile radius will attend without featuring a big name headliner ( which I don’t believe is necessary ). Yes, it can require more advertising dollars, BUT if we think in terms of PUBLICITY instead of advertising, a great deal is possible for a lot less money. What this means is finding interesting angles and creating materials that can get noticed well in advance of the event – also creating a professional looking press kit (very economical to do) that gets sent to publications and radio stations like WXPN in February or March, with follow-up calls, etc., might clinch a radio interview a week or two before the event. It’s more of an investment of time than money, and if successful, there’s NOTHING like free publicity. Of course, something like this takes people to do it, and I’ll state right now that I’d be willing to help get this aspect of things going.

The idea of having one of the manufacturers donate some small apparatus for the raffle is a very good idea. I’m unaware as to whether the manufacturer currently pay any added fee to have their products featured for three days. If they do, that’s only right, as they have a captive audience. However, if they aren’t, it can be a tougher sell now, because the precedent of being allowed to demo stuff for the basic entrance fee has been set.

The issue of how much video is shown seems to me to be a personal choice, and up to the individual artists. I myself was asked, two minutes before my set, if I wanted the video projections going. Initially I said that probably only during the opening five minutes would be fine, but in the spirit of the moment, I just told the guy to have fun. Nobody mentioned it as a distraction and my own wife thought it made everything more interesting (she’s had to look at me without projections for years). Depending upon what I choose to do next year, I may think projections are unnecessary, who knows? Seems to me that the artists themselves can opt in or out because it’s so subjective, and, as has been stated, we can close our eyes.

As regards the Live versus Backing Tracks, given the amazing soundscapes being created, I was unable to tell what was live and what was pre-done. For me, backing tracks are essential simply because I need accompaniment. I’ve never been able to find anyone to play live with on a regular basis. I’ve spent years looking for and meeting people who could fill this role, but I’ve never found anyone willing to put in the time it takes to work up a full set. That may change someday, as I much prefer to do everything live, but it’s only happened once in eight years, requiring two months of rehearsals, seven hours a day. For the present, I’m at the mercy of having to play with my pre-recorded accompaniment. Seems again, this can be left up to the individual artists rather than a prerequisite.

I do agree that a scheduled official break in the proceedings could be a good thing. Many of us made our own breaks anyway – but saying that there’s a free hour ( maybe one slot per day ) just gives everyone a breather and no one feels like they’re missing anything.
That said, I actually loved the fully-packed days of scheduled events. This was, for me, a real plus. I felt like I was REALLY getting my money’s worth and to be able to go from one thing to another, or sit it out, or visit one performance for a while, then take off to go see what was going on upstairs is all part of the fun and variety. Never once did I hear anyone grouse about people getting up and walking quietly out during their set. The whole structure had a built in freedom to come and go that I found extremely enjoyable.

I'll second (or third) the comments about the VJs work. Though brilliant in small doses, there was a tendency for sensory overload after awhile, and I did find myself closing my eyes once in a while to focus on the music. I did this during Matt Herman's wonderful looped Stick solo performance, where his lanquid and slowly-evolving piece just didn't jive with Dr. T's rapid cuts and quick transitions. Not a crit of Dr. T's work, which I love, but not all combinations of visuals and performers worked... though I DO appreciate their contributions (we loved having visuals during Brainstatik's set!). So maybe the event needs to lure MORE VJs in to add more diverse visuals.

More so, I enjoyed when Hong used a cam to zoom in on the performers' gear and/or keyboard playing while Greg layered it into other effects, creating a really personal and often more-engaging link to the performance. Perhaps next year, even just a few DVcams on tripods connected to projectors could provide some cool live up-close-and-personal addition to some of the performers' sets.

Last comment (for now): I add my vote for more "live" live performances and less sequenced pre-programmed tracks from the participants. No matter which tech you use (tape, cd, midi, computer), it doesn't make for an engaging performance if you're just pushing Start and playing along. Drum machines and arpegiators are one thing, but staring at a guy staring at a laptop on stage just doesn't do it for me. This isn't a personal attack on the music that comes out of such presentations, but if we want to grow our audience base to include "regular" people, there needs to be more happening up there on the stage.

Why do a lot of us sit huddled in the dark? This is supposed to be a PERFORMANCE of your music, so why be invisible? We don't have to suddenly transform into Keith Emerson, but shouldn't we all think about how we can come out of our shells to make each of our live concerts a better visual experience for the audience? There were a few cool alternate controllers/triggers and homemade gear seen this past weekend, and I'd like to encourage more of that for next year!

Wow! Lots of great comments and suggestions.
Concerning visuals, I maintain that it simply makes the performance look better, and most (perhaps all) of the performers are going to want that.
I didn't think Kip would want visuals, since his act is already very theatrical. But looking at the photos and videos we have of his set, it looks fantastic with the visuals. Ambient music by itself is almost always boring to look at, and can often be boring to listen to as well! Video can be a welcome distraction for many in the audience. After all it's AMBIENT music, which implies that it's in the background (of course not all the music at em2006 was ambient). It's not so hard to close your eyes if you don't want to see it. When we post Hong's photos of the performances (some made during setup with no visuals, others with) you will see the huge difference it makes.
Actually what I think we need is more variety of visual art (not less visuals). This depends on finding and attracting more artists. They are harder to find than musicians. Also, I propose that for next time, musicians who want visual backing should let us know in advance, so we can arrange for an artist and have them send samples of their music to the visual artist. Hopefully this would work for a better fit between music and video.
BTW, Hong and I originally prepared to do video for Fringe Element, Xeroid Entity and possibly one other artist TBD. In the first two cases the visuals were specifically designed to fit the style of the music, and rehearsed together. After we met up with Mark Jenkins he asked Hong to do visuals for him. We had space oriented material that fit his preference, and he gave us a DVD to use. Originally Jonn Serrie said he didn't want any visuals, but after seeing Mark's set, he decided that he wanted them.
I volunteered to do them for Astrogenic Hallucinauting because I knew that the music was very abstract and thought visuals would complement it well. I got a lot of positive comments on that set. Mark Mahoney and Michael Peck asked us to do videos for them after seeing the others. So we ended up doing six sets instead of our planned three. Naturally there was some overlap of material. Although we've been working very hard for the past few months, we haven't collected as much content as we would like. It's a very time-consuming process to create good content. We will do visuals for the Different Skies festival in September and should have more new stuff by then, and even more by next year!

Concerning doing more/other events.
I wholeheartedly support the idea. The key is finding the right venue. It's very difficult to get audiences for the smaller scale events, which means that the venue must be free or willing to settle for a potentially very small cut of the take. We will definitely do more of the house concert/internet streaming events (both Mosc and Deknow have said they want to do this). Ken wants to resurrect the Cosmic Coffeehouse but needs some volunteer help - maybe we can find him some help here at electro-music.com forums. I would like to have some kind of space music retreat here at my home in the Poconos - with internet streaming as well. And, as I already mentioned to some of you, I'm planning to do a series of shows at an art gallery in Stroudsburg that will combine space music with video art. More on that later.
em2005 and em2006 were big enough to draw participants from far away. for the small events, we must rely on a local base. All of us need to support each other for this to work. And share ideas about how to get the word out to a more general audience.

Concerning "live" vs backing tracks.
My own preference is to see the music being made (since I'm actually more interested in the process itself than the output). But I must admit that much of the really good music at em2006 involved backing tracks. Ultimately this has to be left up to the artist. I can't see trying to dictate or even influence how an artist presents their material. Maybe we can reserve more time on the schedule for improvised collaborations. Someone made a suggestion, which I like, that we allow musicians to submit their names to be randomly paired up with others for a performance.

Random pairings sounds like fun. When I played alone, I had to use some sequenced backing tracks, but when we did the Gears of Sand jam we were all just winging it live. That's a lot of fun._________________Jonathan
www.synthblock.com

My own preference is to see the music being made (since I'm actually more interested in the process itself than the output). But I must admit that much of the really good music at em2006 involved backing tracks.

this concerns me quite a bit....i've been through this before when i used to play at raves regularly....a live set rarely sounds as "polished" as a set based on records that have been sweated over, mastered, published and marketed by a label before being "mixed" by a dj.

...please allow me to express my concerns without this turning into a "what so and so did was cheating", as this is not my goal.

if we have "headliners" who are playing to backing tracks and therefore are able to sound very polished, then do the rest of us have any choice but to follow? em is not a contest, and i wouldn't be involved if it were...but if the standard of quality is based more on what can be done in the studio and replayed for an audience rather than what can be accomplished in a true live setting, then i'm not sure we even need to have a conferance...we might as well just trade cd's.

a humble and obvious use of backing tracks seems to me to be one thing....pilng gobs of gear on the stage and giving the impression that it is all being played live is another .

if, as you put it, "the best performances use backing tracks" (and lets face it, for ambientish music, anyone with a bunch of gear or softsynths can make interesting backing tracks with little effort), then what is our artistic goal? mine certainly is not to play a recording in front of an audience...but if the setting of my performance is one in which a polished and largely prerecorded performance is what is considered "good", and the audience is willing to accept such a performance as equal to a truely live performance, then i think we have a problem (or at least i do).

when i first started playing raves, there were very few live sets....i did many with no backing tracks (yes, there were sequences, but each sequence was changed on the fly, not according to a predefined timeline)....then the superstars moved in. i saw the chemical bros with tons of gear not able to go onstage until an adat was hooked up (for playback, not recording), i saw spacegirl playing a keyboard controller that was not connected to any synth module or computer, i walked out rather than see a friend play a live set off of cassette because the proper gear to play live was not available....all of these were posing as performing live, and from backstage, the audience looked like idiot idol worshipers for accepting mere headbobbing as a live performance. i would hate to see the same thing happen here in our community.

i know this comes off as negative, but it just seems that if the "best" in our community can only achieve what they do by playing largely prerecorded music, then perhaps we all need to do so if we are going to appeal to the same audience...this does not make me terribly happy.

I agree that this is a valid concern. Probably the question is how to increase audience awareness and appreciation for "live" music, especially among non-musicians. At an event like ours, I feel that there is room for the entire spectrum, and I don't see it as a competition.
Yes, it's a problem if the artists are "pretending" to do something that they are not. Fortunately I did not see this happening at em2006.

deknow wrote:

if, as you put it, "the best performances use backing tracks"

What I actually said was "much of the really good music involved backing tracks." Which is not the same thing at all, but undeniably true (I don't want to get into listing examples).

We had lots of great improvised music, and from comments that I received or overheard, I know that these performances were enjoyed, especially by the other artists. Now, our challenge is to make it easier for the rest of the audience to appreciate this music.

Yes, it's a problem if the artists are "pretending" to do something that they are not. Fortunately I did not see this happening at em2006.

It did happen on one occasion, but I won't name any names (if you're really curious you can PM me)

I think electro-music shold be about improv. I played in an improv ambientish jam band many years ago and it was plenty entertaining to spectators and super entertaining for us, the players. I fell out of the loop because we all went our separate ways and couldn't find others to work with. I'm a bit rusty now on the keys, but I hope that will change before too long. I'd hate to live the rest of my life hunched over a computer sequence with little tactile interaction.

I'm new to this forum so I'm not completely familiar with the protocol/interchange, forgive me if my chiming in is orthogonal.

Greg's point about making the audience aware of what techniques are in play is important imho. Maybe a sweeping generalization, but I think that one of the distinguishing characteristics of electronic musicians is that they enjoy/value 'the process'-- it can wholly *be* "experimenting with a process that theoretically should result in something musical", the anthesis of a cover band trying to execute a pop song. Valuing the process, then, shouldn't one want to enlighten the audience regarding it's nature?

Somebody says 'this is an original piece, backing rhythms and pads are pre-recorded using ... modulated on the fly by doing... and we'll be improvising over this by...'

Somebody says 'we are using these methods.... involving this instrumentation and equipment... and this piece will be realized for the first and only time as we proceed...'

either way, this is interesting to me, likely others, and your appreciation of the piece is 'aligned' properly._________________Utenzil
http://utenzil.com

greg, you are correct, and i didn't mean to misrepresent what you said.

that said, i think we are probably talking about the same (or similar) things.....many of the more "headlining" spots were largely prerecorded...and i think that is a problem.

perhaps the prime time spots should be reserved for artists that don't use backing tracks? ...this may sound self serving, and on some level perhaps it is...but at the same time if people are introduced to our events via hearing mostly prerecorded material then that is what they are likely to come to expect. as our community grows, i think it is important that we have some dialog about what it is that "we" actually represent. i don't really care to be part of a group (or collective, or movement) who's heros are largely lip syncing.

there is some middle ground between a fixed backing track and pure improv.....some predefined backing tracks that are heavily manipulated in real time seems more ok to me than playing straight off of a cd, but we must trust the artist to not say they are manipulating the track and only running it through a reverb.

perhaps i'm old fashoned, but i feel cheated and decieved when i go to hear a live concert (especially a non-mainstream electronic musician at a community run event) and end up hearing mostly prerecorded tracks...it's fine with me if ashley simpson fans want that experience, but that's not why i come to electro-music. don't get me wrong, i had an incredible time...but we need to think about what we are doing as we move ahead. i also agree that there was at least one set that was deceptive (actually probably at least 2).

Drum machines and arpegiators are one thing, but staring at a guy staring at a laptop on stage just doesn't do it for me

People behind keyboards are usually pretty boring to look at too.
Vytear worked behind a laptop and his incredible enthusiasm and artistry was reflected in his face. From what I saw, I would give him the gold star award for best stage presence. He and Kip were the most animated performers I saw.

As far as backtracks: I'm there for the music and comradery. I could care less if someone is using backtracks or not. We don't use them, but I don't think that makes us any more of a musician than someone who does.

i agree with that mark...and i don't want to make any judgement on who is a better musician (after all, that's in the eye of the audience). but i come to perform and see/hear live music. if someone really wants to only present prerecorded material, let them hand out cd's (imho).

As far as backtracks: I'm there for the music and comradery. I could care less if someone is using backtracks or not. We don't use them, but I don't think that makes us any more of a musician than someone who does.

i agree with that mark...and i don't want to make any judgement on who is a better musician (after all, that's in the eye of the audience). but i come to perform and see/hear live music. if someone really wants to only present prerecorded material, let them hand out cd's (imho).

deknow

well, backing tracks and "only prerecorded material'' are two different things--- that reminds me of an idea that crossed my mind: maybe another activity to add would would be 'CD listening parties' in one of the smaller rooms?_________________Utenzil
http://utenzil.com

well, i don't think anyone was completely lip syncing...but if 70% of what is in the mix comes off of a cd, i'm not terribly interested.

i'd almost be in favor of "full disclousure" of offering up the actual backing tracks up as mp3's on electro-music.

i think next year, i'm going to pre-record my set on minidisc and get a full sized cardboard cutout of ashely simpson. i'll add line out jacks on the nipples and a motion sensor to activate the "start" button. at the begining of the set, i'll walk up to the cutout and shake it until the md starts...then walk off stage

I used to feel the same way about backing tracks as Deknow, but I've mellowed out about it. I've come around to thinking that it's a valid way to work. Some of the music is very complex. To present it live would take a tremendous amount of gear and several musicians - making it impractical.

Although we have never even discussed this specifically, Mark Jenkins convinced me that backing tracks have their place. A few months ago he did a live performance in my studio that we streamed on radio.electro-music.com. He couldn't possibly carry from England all of the equipment necessary to perform all of the tracks live. Even though he was using backing tracks he was doing a lot of live playing during the session. It was indeed a unique performance. He even included some sounds from some cheap FM radios he had just purchased at a local Dollar Store.

We presented about 36 hours of music. If one doesn't care for something because of the way it sounds or the way it is created, then it's cool to leave the performance.

I would hope that if there is any consistent theme of electro-music.com, it is to withhold expressing negative judgements of other musicians._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

This is an area that I have struggled with for years. For the most part I've always used just one keyboard, both live and in the studio. Since much of what I do relies on patterns that change and evolve I'm able to trigger those on and off in a live situation. The keyboard I use lets me assign different patterns to the keys and to the pads, so it makes it easier to trigger different ones, while playing additional parts over them. In this way I can add or subtract parts and shorten or lengthen a piece as I go depending on the mood and time constraints. As a player that makes the live performance more interactive and interesting for me than just hitting the start button on the sequencer and just playing a few solos over it._________________Jonathan
www.synthblock.com

I would like to comment specifically on the music selection itself. With no discredit or criticism to the artists at EM06, I personally felt that many sub-genres of Electronic Music could have been represented better and perhaps there may have been a lean towards what I would label as Experimental and Ambient music and artists. I might add that I like and even create Experimental and Ambient music as well.

Perhaps more inclusion of (and not limited to) Symphonic, New Age, Contemporary, Synth Pop, Progressive/Rock, Electronic Jazz, Melodic, Electronic World/Ethnic music, Soundtrack and Gaming artists, all would have been welcomed and may offer a wider, more objective look at all the electronic music styles that actually exists.

For the future, I would recommend including and representing a wider variety of electronic sub-genres and artists.

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