Sitting at Nuremberg, Germany
16th April to 1st May, 1946

Q. According to your observations what was the economic
situation like in the agricultural and industrial sector of
your district, and is the statement justified that allowing
for war-time conditions the administration of the Government
General had done everything to promote economy?

[Page 137]

A. Economy in my district was going full force in 1944 both
in industry and in agriculture. Some industries had been
transferred from the Reich to the Government General, and,
as far as agriculture was concerned, the administration
imported large quantities of fertilisers and seeds and the
like. Horse breeding was also greatly promoted in my
district.

Q. The defendant Dr. Frank is accused of not having done
everything that was necessary with regard to public health
and sanitary conditions. What can you say about this point?

A. I can say that in my district - again speaking of 1944 -
hospitals were improved and new ones installed. A great deal
was done especially in the fighting of epidemics. Typhus,
dysentery, and typhoid were greatly reduced by inoculation.

Q. The defendant Dr. Frank is also accused of having
neglected higher education. Do you know anything about what
the conditions in the Government General were in regard to
this?

A. When I came into the Government General there was no
longer any higher education at all. On the basis of other
experiences I suggested immediately that Polish universities
be opened again. I contacted the President of the Main
Department for Education, who told me that the government
was already entertaining such plans. In every one of my
monthly reports I pointed out the necessity for Polish
universities, because within a short time, or more correctly
in a few years time, there would be a shortage of
technicians, doctors and veterinary surgeons.

Q. Now, one last question. There was a so-called labour
sphere (Arbeitsbereich) of the N.S.D.A.P. in the Government
General; you were the District Standartfuehrer in the
Government General?

A. Yes.

Q. Witness, what, according to your observations, were the
relations between the Governor General and the Head of the
Party Chancellery, Bormann?

A. I believe I can say without exaggeration that they were
extremely bad. As District Standartfuehrer I combined this
office with that of district Governor and witnessed the last
great struggle of the Governor General against Bormann. The
Governor General held the view, and in this he was
justified, that it was wrong to combine the Party office
with the government office. He was afraid there would be too
much interference not only by the police but also by the
Party, and he wanted to prevent that. Bormann, on the other
hand, wanted to establish the predominance of the Party over
the State in the Government General as well. That led to the
most serious conflict.

DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions for the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other defence counsel wish to
ask any other questions?

Q. Witness, you were at one time Under State Secretary in
the Government of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia?
When was that?

A. From the end of March, 1939, until the middle of March,
1942.

Q. And to whom were you directly subordinate as Under State
Secretary? The State Secretary Frank or the Reich Protector?

A. State Secretary Frank.

Q. How did you come to know about the activity of von
Neurath as Reich Protector?

A. From conferences with him and personal conversations.

Q. What kind of work did you have to do as Under State
Secretary?

A. I was in charge of the administration proper.

[Page 138]

Q. Were the Police and the various S.S. and Police offices
subordinate to you?

A. No.

Q. To whom were they subordinate?

A. To State Secretary Frank.

Q. What was State Secretary Frank's attitude to von Neurath?

A. You mean officially?

Q. Officially, yes, of course.

A. Herr von Neurath tried at first to get along with Herr
Frank; but the stronger Frank's position became, the more
impossible that became. State Secretary Frank, later
Minister Frank, had behind him the entire power of the S.S.
and the Police and at the end Hitler also.

Q. From whom did Frank get his orders directly?

A. As far as I know, from Himmler; however, I saw that on
one, two or three occasions he received direct orders from
Hitler.

Q. And that happened mostly without von Neurath being
consulted?

A. That I cannot say, but I assume so.

Q. Was it possible for Frank to perform his political
functions independently within his sphere of activity, or
did he have to have the approval of Herr von Neurath?

A. Whether he was able or allowed to do so, I should not
like to decide but at any rate he did so.

Q. Were Herr von Neurath and Herr Frank of the same opinion
concerning the policy towards the Czech people?

A. I did not understand your question.

Q. Did Herr von Neurath agree with the policy toward the
Czech people pursued by Frank or his superior, Himmler?

A. No.

Q. Could he carry through his aims?

A. He could not do anything, confronted as he was by
Himmler's and Hitler's immense power.

Q. What was Herr von Neurath's own policy and attitude?

A. At the beginning I spoke very often about these things to
Herr von Neurath. On the basis of the decree of 15 March he
hoped and believed he could get the Germans and Czechs in
the Protectorate to live together reasonably and peacefully.

Q. But as Frank's position became stronger, that became more
and more difficult?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that in the middle of November, 1939,
serious disturbances broke out among the students in Prague?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you also remember that on the day after these
incidents Herr von Neurath and Frank flew to Berlin?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that Frank returned from Berlin alone on
the same day?

A. I believe I can recall that Frank returned on the same
day, but I do not know whether he returned alone.

Q. You don't know if Herr von Neurath returned with him?

A. No.

Q. Do you know anything else about the incidents connected
with the disturbances by students and what the consequences
were?

A. They resulted, as far as I remember, in the execution of
several students and in the closing of the Universities.

Q. Do you know whether the Universities were closed on
Himmler's orders?

A. Yes.

[Page 139]

Q. Do you know anything about the attitude of Herr von
Neurath towards the Catholic and Protestant Churches?

A. His attitude was always above reproach and there were no
difficulties with the churches during the time that I was in
the Protectorate.

Q. Do you know that Herr von Neurath was in contact with the
Archbishop of Prague until the latter's death?

A. No, I don't know anything about that.

Q. Do you know anything about whether, during the term of
office of Herr von Neurath, with his approval or upon his
orders, art treasures of any kind, pictures, monuments,
sculptures, libraries, or the like, belonging either to the
State or to private owners, were confiscated and removed
from the country?

A. It is certain, absolutely certain, that he did not order
anything of the sort. Whether he consented in any way to
this I do not know, but I do not believe so. I remember one
incident in the Malteser Palace, to which some Reich office
- I don't remember today which it was - removed art
treasures. Herr von Neurath immediately did everything in
order to make good this damage.

Q. Do you know that the Customs Union, which had been
ordered by Berlin from the very beginning between the
Protectorate and Germany, was not established for a long
time because of Herr von Neurath's intervention?

A. Yes. I definitely know about that. However, in the
interest of the truth, I have to add that State Secretary
Frank also was against the Customs Union, because, like Herr
von Neurath, he believed that the economy of the
Protectorate would be damaged by the stronger economy of
Germany.

Q. While von Neurath was Reich Protector, was there any
compulsory deportation of workers?

A. I am convinced that that did not happen. Workers were
recruited, but in an entirely regular manner. That was the
case while I was in the Protectorate.

Q. Do you know whether von Neurath made travel in or out of
the Protectorate dependent on official approval?

A. Whether or not von Neurath did that, I do not know.

Q. Do you know anything about the closing of the secondary
schools?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you know about them?

A. I remember that the closing of the secondary schools was
a necessary consequence of the closing of the universities.
There were too many secondary schools in the Protectorate.
Not all of them were closed by any means. On the other hand
trade schools were greatly expanded and new ones
established. I can't remember anything more exact about it.

Q. Do you know anything about von Neurath's attitude towards
the Germanisation of Czechoslovakia as intended by Himmler?

A. Yes, I remember the memorandum which von Neurath sent to
Hitler about this whole affair. That memorandum was intended
to defer Himmler's plans for a forced Germanisation. Von
Neurath expressed the view, which he had frequently
mentioned to me, that in the interest of peace in the
Protectorate he did not advocate these attempts at
Germanisation.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I have no more questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine?

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. DODD:

Q. Tell us, please, when you first joined the National
Socialist Party?

A. 1 May, 1933.

Q. And did you achieve office in any of its affiliated
organisations?

A. I was an honorary S.A. Gruppenfuehrer.

Q. Any other honours?

[Page 140]

A. Then for a few years, just as I had been during the
democratic regime, I was legal adviser to the administration
of Saxony.

Q. Weren't you also an Oberbannfuehrer in the H.J., the
Hitler-Jugend?

A. I once became Oberbannfuehrer on the occasion of the
Reich Youth Leader's visit to Prague. But that was purely a
gesture of courtesy, which had no consequences.

I should like to mention again, since you speak of Party
offices, that, as was said before, I was District
Standartfuehrer from the middle of January, 1944, until the
end, that is, the middle of January, 1945, because of my
office as Governor in Cracow.

Q. You also received the Golden Badge of the Hitler Youth,
did you not?

A. No.

Q. Weren't you in some way associated with Reinhard Heydrich
when you were in Prague?

A. I was with Heydrich until the middle of 1942. Then, as is
generally known, because of the course pursued by Heydrich,
I left the Protectorate and at the age of fifty-five I went
into the army.

Q. What position did you occupy with relation to Heydrich?

A. The same as under Herr von Neurath; I was Under State
Secretary.

Q. Let me put it to you this way: you told us that you never
heard of Maidanek, the concentration camp?

A. Yes.

Q. And you never heard of Auschwitz?

A. Of Auschwitz, yes.

Q. Had you heard of an installation known as Lublin?

A. Of Lublin? Not of the concentration camp but of the city
of Lublin, of course.

Q. Did you know of a concentration camp by the name of
Lublin?

A. No.

Q. You did know, I assume, of many other concentration camps
by name?

A. Only of German camps, yes - of Dachau and Buchenwald.

MR. DODD: That is all.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions?

DR. SEIDL: I have no more questions for the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Who is your next witness?

DR. SEIDL: The next witness would be the former secretary of
the Governor General, Fraulein Kraffezyk. However, if I
understood the Tribunal correctly yesterday, this session
will end at 16.30 hours.

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