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The only purpose of shame is to cause a change in trajectory to avoid a collision course. Now that we covered all that, let's move on. Please.

EDIT UPDATE: Sorry for causing too many threads though, and I was also shocked and dismayed for possibly the same reasons as Fiddy in his post which this thread is an unauthorised fork of. This original thread got locked before there were any replies and it had a good explanation in post 2. The thread was unlocked later on for another good reason by a different mod. Sorry for the mess, hopefully more people will not have such a knee-jerk reaction to thread titles as me. I'm ok with it unlocked or locked, according to the needs of the IDMf community as understood by both mods. Maybe this could just get merged with the other one. Sorry, about that. And yet meanwhile...

"Wake up, take the pillow from your head and put a book in it; it's time!"

EDIT UPDATE: This thread originally got locked for a good reason, which was OK with me at first because I had no replies yet. But It got unlocked for another good reason. Both mods did good things. I tried to explain more of my mixed feelings about all this stuff in this post: http://www.idmforums.com/showpost.ph...8&postcount=19
That's my official reply and I might not post much in either thread. I'd rather focus on the Peace and Love thread which I was trying to promote. So yeah, actually I do think maybe this thread should be closed if it helps more people read my threads about Peace-music invitations and the need for that type of culture. I will defer to the mods' choice. I hope they can work it out. I guess I probably side with Stercogburn, but I couldn't have even said any of this if Jaded hadn't unlocked it, so I'm thankful to him too. So everybody wins I guess.

In all fairness, the feeling in this topic is not ashamed as opposed to pride, but I'd like to talk about Nationalistic pride a bit.

For example, am I proud to be a Canadian? Nope. I am fairly happy to be a Canadian. It seems like a pretty good country to have been born in. What's there to be proud of though? I was born here by whatever genetic or cosmic fluke created my existence such as it is.

What's the deal with American Pride? It seems to be a pretty big thing. I don't think other countries wave flags around in the same way except maybe during the Olympics or some world sporting event. Where does it come from? Why are people proud to have been born in a certain country?

*post-edit*

The more I think about it, why National Shame? Why feel embarrassed for something 40 Million or whatever people who are not you did? What do you have in common with them beside being born inside the same imaginary lines?

Being a smug asshole isn't limited by borders. Although I'm not ashamed to be american, I'm not proud to be one. All that jingoistic bullshit about "The USA is the best country on earth" is spouted off either by politicians looking to butter people up so they'll vote for them, or by blind idiot patriots who are the opposite of "wordly" and can't see the virtue of the planet beyond their borders.

Last edited by Numerical; 31-01-2017 at 04:05 AM..
Reason: typo- blame it on the phone

I agree with your seeing each side of the spectrum @Oatbag, it's good to see somebody look at both sides of something.

I do find it odd that my nation's pride is so threatening to somebody on the outside. I remember being younger and somebody online was putting me down for being American, and I was blown away because I didn't know shit about their country and only ever thought good thoughts about it. To this day I still do, even hearing about their problems, I don't blame citizens.

You know who is more prideful? Russians. I have met a ton of them, I've never heard them put their country down, they are always looking to make you come visit and talking about how wonderful it is. Look at things over there. Oh and definitely Mexico. Even when immigrating here, they're fucking proud, and that's awesome to me. (If you live in California especially and don't know anybody with a "Hecho en Mexico" tattoo you're a fucking liar) It's hope sometimes, but always love for the way of life you got brought up in.

My pride personally comes from the society around me, people who work to get things to me, people who fight for me, people who provide me with food and water and all the extra shit inbetween.

I don't hate anybody else for being where they're from and I think it's awesome when they have pride. Best country on Earth? Depends on how you look at it, like anything else

Again, this is why I think it's time to get the filet mignon knocked off the table and drink from a puddle for awhile, we can't see how good we really have it anymore. (PURELY METAPHORIC I KNOW SOME PEOPLE DONT HAVE FILET MIGNON INCLUCING MYSELF FFS)

Anyways I wrote a really long post and deleted since I'm sure it will be picked apart and turned into something evil, or just that nobody gives a shit . Just my unknown amount of cents.

Aside form recent political events, which is really just douche bags being douche bags, I like it here. This, of course, is a biased opinion as I've never lived in another country (in fact I've only once stepped outside the US), but with that said, I like it. I have no real "pride" or sense of civil duty for living here. I see a country as merely an area that is defined by its laws, it's geographical profile, and it's economy. I've never been much of a team player, honestly, though I do interact with others how I would like to be treated, and give others the same respect I would like them to show me. Mostly I am concerned with taking care of myself, my family and friends, and after that, seeing that others are treated with the respect they deserve. Outside of that, I have no awknolwedgment of parties, teams, etc, tho I may act on one team's behalf.

I make music, and that's what I do. If it gets bad here maybe I'll try to move somewhere else, but I can say I like the US because it's where my family and friends are, and sure I've benefited from being a US resident in different ways, which is nice, but I don't feel a sense of obligation or anything like at all. I happen to live here. While I live here, I'll do what I can to make things better in the way I see it ought to be made better, in what capacity I have to do that, for myself, family, friends, and any human being that lives here. But it's all just situational. I'd do the same if I were in Mexico, in Germany, in India, Iceland, Madagascar... doesn't matter. I'm a human being and I wish to help other human beings. I have no part beyond that tho, aside from using the resources that the US can provide to make my life and other people's lives better.

Aside form recent political events, which is really just douche bags being douche bags, I like it here. This, of course, is a biased opinion as I've never lived in another country (in fact I've only once stepped outside the US), but with that said, I like it. I have no real "pride" or sense of civil duty for living here. I see a country as merely an area that is defined by its laws, it's geographical profile, and it's economy. I've never been much of a team player, honestly, though I do interact with others how I would like to be treated, and give others the same respect I would like them to show me. Mostly I am concerned with taking care of myself, my family and friends, and after that, seeing that others are treated with the respect they deserve. Outside of that, I have no awknolwedgment of parties, teams, etc, tho I may act on one team's behalf.

I make music, and that's what I do. If it gets bad here maybe I'll try to move somewhere else, but I can say I like the US because it's where my family and friends are, and sure I've benefited from being a US resident in different ways, which is nice, but I don't feel a sense of obligation or anything like at all. I happen to live here. While I live here, I'll do what I can to make things better in the way I see it ought to be made better, in what capacity I have to do that, for myself, family, friends, and any human being that lives here. But it's all just situational. I'd do the same if I were in Mexico, in Germany, in India, Iceland, Madagascar... doesn't matter. I'm a human being and I wish to help other human beings. I have no part beyond that tho, aside from using the resources that the US can provide to make my life and other people's lives better.

Ditto for the sentiment expressed..you and I (..and GomesR, too) apparently feel the same way about these things.

I think the Bag o' Oats summed it up pretty well. It's like being guilty over being white - I was born this way, I'm not going to apologize for shit I didn't have a choice in. I go out of my way not to be a dick about it, I don't rub whatever privilege I might get in the faces of the less fortunate, but it's not like I can magically become Lithuanian any more than I can turn Eskimo. I'm a Caucasian 'Murrican dude, and literally nothing I do can change that. So, like, whatever. I'm not ashamed, I'm not proud, I'm just a guy trying to get by.

That said, I'm pretty well out. I figure 5-10 years, I'm cashing out my chips and heading somewhere the fuck else to live out the rest of my days. My wife keeps talking about farming in the north of England, but I'm thinking a little beach somewhere I don't speak the language and my hard working dollars go a long way would be ok too.

All that jingoistic bullshit about "The USA is the best country on earth" is spouted off either by politicians looking to butter people up so they'll vote for them, or by blind idiot patriots who are the opposite of "wordly" and can't see the virtue of the planet beyond their borders.

And people who have lived both in America AND other parts of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GomesR

I do find it odd that my nation's pride is so threatening to somebody on the outside. I remember being younger and somebody online was putting me down for being American, and I was blown away because I didn't know shit about their country and only ever thought good thoughts about it. To this day I still do, even hearing about their problems, I don't blame citizens.

Yeah I find it odd. One of my American friends got so sick of dumb cunts hassling about US Imperialism (around the time of 9-11) that he just gave up with his usual American politeness and started telling people to fuck off, "Dudes! Do you realise that most Americans probably fucking agree with you? Give us a fucking break!"

Another friend whose Puerto Rican does the same whenever people start asking him about "African American" stuff. He be all like "A) - I'm not African American, I'm Puerto Rican. B) Even if I was, black people don't speak for all black people. And C) You probably no more about what you're trying to talk to me about because I honestly don't give a fuck. Why do you think I live in Australia?"

You know who is more prideful? Russians. I have met a ton of them, I've never heard them put their country down, they are always looking to make you come visit and talking about how wonderful it is. Look at things over there. Oh and definitely Mexico. Even when immigrating here, they're fucking proud, and that's awesome to me. (If you live in California especially and don't know anybody with a "Hecho en Mexico" tattoo you're a fucking liar) It's hope sometimes, but always love for the way of life you got brought up in.

I find that a lot of Europeans are also really proud of their country. They're very knowledgeable about their homeland and, just as you said about Russians, they're always looking to get people to visit the country in which they grew up in. Aussies are also like that. I actually really like seeing that kind of pride.

As an outsider who's never even been to the USA, I feel kinda bad for Americans who love their country. So often I see Americans, as well as many non-Americans, hating other Americans who just have a little bit of home pride. They love their country because that's where they grew up. Nothing wrong with that. Now if you act like a douche about it (i.e "MURRICA FUCK YEAAA"), then it's fucking annoying. But a little bit of hometown love isn't harmful to anyone. I personally quite like seeing that kind of stuff, especially because there's very little of it in my country. It's like second-hand pride, haha.

Being a smug asshole isn't limited by borders. Although I'm not ashamed to be american, I'm not proud to be one. All that jingoistic bullshit about "The USA is the best country on earth" is spouted off either by politicians looking to butter people up so they'll vote for them, or by blind idiot patriots who are the opposite of "wordly" and can't see the virtue of the planet beyond their borders.

Interestingly enough, this is coincidentally pretty much my exact same opinion too. Numerical, dude, you and I totally agree on this point.

Maybe I shouldn't have started this thread though, because I hadn't yet read enough of the original other thread and I mostly was just responding to the title of it and only some of it's contents.

And also, I felt that all that tRump publicity isn't doing the world any favors. So when my thread was closed by the mod, I didn't complain because...

I got at least one thank you message which implied to me that this site won't get taken over with the political cynicism of the tRump election fallout.

But I'm not really sure how much I feel about my own reasons for posting and it was really somewhat to protect the site from being overloaded from the tRump culture jamming. (ALL TRUMP ALL THE TIME BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, ad nauseum, ad...) hell no! DJ INTERRUPTUS INSTEAD!

But now that there are some responses here I don't want to be a part of censoring anybody else either, which is why I'm also thankful to Jaded for decensoring me even though I kinda agree with the original decision to lock the thread before it got busy by Stercogburn who I would've thanked if the thread tools allowed thanking somebody after a lockdown.

Also, I respect Fidelium's original post which is most of what I read thus far, which is kind of embarrasing to say, but true. Because I only had my wimpy cellphone's web browser, I couldn't read much of the replies without the RAM overloaded and crashing or whatnot.

Also, I agree with the mood of Fidelium's original post which is something like: "A significant portion of influence within my country just made a gigantic mistake affecting billions of lives; this doesn't feel good; please send help!" And actually I very much agree with that sentiment even though I'm paraphrasing and admittedly I don't speak for fiddy.

I voted Green Party for what it's worth, kinda the Minority Report style thinkers looking over the horizon trying to see the bigger picture.

Personally, I think the election WAS hacked, but NOT by Russians nor by
hackers. I think it was influenced by Twitterfeeds and so-called "live-polling" broadcasted by corrupt television media broadcasters and their media affiliates and the culture jamming of repetition.

I feel that the real reason the election turned out was because influencers behind the scenes hand picked him, perhaps back in the 1990s and that Trump himself even knows this which is why he knows the election was rigged, but not against himself, but against Bernie and Hillary both.

The intel that I read on a prominent security website in the early days before the story broke had info that the hackers couldn't have been state-sponsored hackers because they were only looking for dirt in the DNC computers AGAINST trump, not for him, and only accidentally found the stuff about the DNC being abusive to B. Sanders.

And furthermore, and this is the important part...
It was extremely unlikely to have even been Russian hackers because the cryptanalysis and network traffic analysis and digital fingerprinting and the data trail pointed to somebody possibly German or something like that, but even that wasn't necessarily nefarious nor even true because of the massive amounts of identity sheilding techniques used by hackers in general, especially the technically skilled ones.

A particular technical digital forensic article explained that the alleged Russian hacker used a signature which was something that traslated into English as something roughly like "I, the hacker, am a historically prominent Russian intelligence worker" which is not likely because if it was a malicious hack they wouldn't give out their own identity freely like that, it would be hidden and/or they wouldn't use any signature at all!!!!.

Also, the article described the alleged historical structure of normal Russian intelligence workers and how that social structure has bearing upon how intel is gathered. It also implied that the so-called hackers of the USA's DNC computers were NOT RUSSIAN HACKERS.

Also, there were was a wierd quote from Nancy Pelosi about how she knew it was Russian hackers, and all she could say was something, "I just know it was Russian hackers!" and not supporting her claim.

But in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, a person is INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty in a COURT OF LAW. And there was no such proven evidence against any such allegedy Russian hackers.

Meanwhile innocent people like Snowden and other whistleblowers are still unfairly punished or under threat of extradiction to USA or elsewhere where they probably would NOT get a fair trial.

And now that tRump is in office, we've got him about to appoint federal judicial types of his wierd incompetant intolerant irrational sociopathological modus operandi. And tRump also fired some of the heads of USA intel who are really needed now during anti-terrorism sorties.

So yeah, that's another reason why I agree with Fidelium's sentiment of 'holy shit, something bad just happened and it originated from my country, USA'.

But not all American's caused it, of course. We got usurped. America got hit by a Cou d etat or however you spell it. But have no shame, we can turn this around with awareness and stand up against the self-appointed tyranny, give righteous forms of law-enforcement peacesustaining support, give counter-terrorism support, and also not disrespect people trying hold society together and support those trying to solve the world's biggest problems.

And there is a long history of USA propagandists blaming China and Russia for every newsbreaking mainstream story. But as it turns out, security specialists and network admins in the security industry have blogs where very often it's USA-locally-originating malicious hacking done as corporate espionage via identity shielding.

That IS something that does hurt USA in terms of USA relations. When we blame everyone else for stuff that we often due, just for security purposes. That's wrong to me, and not even technically believable.

The only think explicitly Russian or whatnot about the hacking
that happens in this world is it's resemblence to Russian nesting dolls, like Tribbles that are born pregnant (this inside of this inside of this inside of this inside of this), wheels within wheels, fires within fires type of stuff. And that's a technique which is not actually Russian. It's called "spoofing".

Also, some people on the prominent pro security website even speculated with some backing that the USA's government or intelligence agencies might have actually hired Russia (as a friend) to investigate the Trump dossier as an internal investigation shielded by an external investigation.

In terms of ID shielding techniques, using a third party to fascilliate a hidden data transaction is not unknown as a concept in secrecy techniques.

So anyways, because I gotta go read the original thread more, I needed to fess up about this stuff.

I do honestly think maybe this thread should be merged with the other thread and it renamed to a new title of Fidelium's choice with the approval of Stercog and Jaded or whatever admin.

But if that's not a good idea either, I won't complain because I'm not really trying to censor anybody either, and maybe it's better to help provide more avenues for people to exchange ideas and there are already some really cool replies in both threads.

Aside form recent political events, which is really just douche bags being douche bags, I like it here. This, of course, is a biased opinion as I've never lived in another country (in fact I've only once stepped outside the US), but with that said, I like it. I have no real "pride" or sense of civil duty for living here. I see a country as merely an area that is defined by its laws, it's geographical profile, and it's economy. I've never been much of a team player, honestly, though I do interact with others how I would like to be treated, and give others the same respect I would like them to show me. Mostly I am concerned with taking care of myself, my family and friends, and after that, seeing that others are treated with the respect they deserve. Outside of that, I have no awknolwedgment of parties, teams, etc, tho I may act on one team's behalf.

I make music, and that's what I do. If it gets bad here maybe I'll try to move somewhere else, but I can say I like the US because it's where my family and friends are, and sure I've benefited from being a US resident in different ways, which is nice, but I don't feel a sense of obligation or anything like at all. I happen to live here. While I live here, I'll do what I can to make things better in the way I see it ought to be made better, in what capacity I have to do that, for myself, family, friends, and any human being that lives here. But it's all just situational. I'd do the same if I were in Mexico, in Germany, in India, Iceland, Madagascar... doesn't matter. I'm a human being and I wish to help other human beings. I have no part beyond that tho, aside from using the resources that the US can provide to make my life and other people's lives better.

Wow, I also very much strong agree with this also.
I care about the world and believe that most people in most places just want to be able to live a good life in their homes, just like here. And wherever I go, I try to adapt and coexist with the people and if I can't go that due to local hostilities, I try to go elsewhere if the hostilities can't be resolved peacefully and diplomatically. I don't judge, really. I also feel this way about law enforcement... most of them are good people getting tough work done for honorable good reasons, helping keep civilization going. And yet overuse of force is unfortunate; all lives do matter; hate crimes suck bad even if done by police.

Hopefully USA won't turn into a tyranny, but we are at risk, so I can relate to Fidelium's #1 post, it's just the title that rubbed me the wrong way, because I don't actually believe that most American's voted for tRump. The electoral college system is tyrannical by nature and I believe the system got hacked otherwise. I only trust the popular vote. By the popular vote, Hillary won. And yet the "winner take all" system of USA is also very weak.

If Hillary and Bernie and Jill Stein had all joined together it would've truly been a MAJOR TRIFECTA.

But this year has been a year of all years.
We now live in dangerous times which is why I still stand by my word that we need to be actively trying to reduce the dangers against war and tyranny (which is also a form of war), etc. I hope to live beyond this year. Look to the Future, Boddhisattva Style.