Definitely a major factor as well, but a smart coach uses trusted vets to reinforce his message.

_________________"There were a couple times where I was just like, 'Is that legal?" Warford said. "Cause he was getting laid out. I was like, 'Someone might call the cops. This is not fair.'"

March 19th, 2012, 12:03 am

Footsoldier32

Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: February 28th, 2007, 12:13 pmPosts: 973

Re: rumor has it

kdsberman wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

The Legend wrote:

Quote:

First off, we have two highly paid DTs that will see more playing time in 2012 than Williams. Backus, like him or not, has not missed a game in his career, and rarely misses a single offensive snap. We are paying Williams $6M per year to be a rotational player. And I'm sorry, but Cory just wasn't that effective last season. Teams focused on Suh, and Williams didn't pick up the slack at all. Not one iota. There were times he was being taken completely out of the play by a single blocker. That isn't what he's being paid for. If the Lions were to release Cory Williams today, do you think another team will pay him $6M per season? I don't. Particularly since he proved he can't play the 5 technique for a team running a 34, and isn't a threat as an interior pass rusher for the 43. He is limited in his scope of play. Sammie Lee Hill is a better all around DT than Cory Williams. He needs to reduce his cap number.

hmmm fairley is on a 4 yr/10 mill deal - i dont consider that highly paid. further nobody wants to talk about the reality that his foot injury is going to be a chronic problem - he ll be a great player in spurts but push him past 20-25 plays consistently and that 5th metatarsal will break again and again. as for williams and hill - you cannot be serious. i like hill, he is a hard working tough player but he doesnt have the lateral agility, quickness, and athleticism that williams has and is nowhere near as good using his hands or reading blocks. 2011 was a big season for him but i doubt he will EVER be as good as Williams has been the past two seasons. finally when williams was traded to detroit his contract was essentially restructured to 3 yrs/12.5 mill (2.7/4.9/4.9) and i dont believe his signing bonus money counts against detroit as cleveland is the team that gave it to him. if williams were to leave i could see another team giving him a 3 yr/12 mill deal with a 4 mill signing bonus and 2/3/3 which would be more than the 4.9 mill he ll make this year in detroit so yes i do think he could make more on the market.

ur comments on backus - i wasnt dissing backus. im well aware of the iron man streak but im also well aware of the fact that he s ruptured two tendons in the past year. that in no way is a good sign that the streak is going to make it 32 more games and im sure mayhew knows that - its clear to me mayhew wants this team to keep its veterans and its leadership until the younger guys show a little more maturity. KVB/Corey/Backus/Raiola/Burleson fit that profile.

finally on the age issue - i think its only relevant if you look at the age and the end of the contract. if the player looks like he s going to be washed up when ur paying him a lot then age is relevant. corey will be in his contract year at age 32 - thats something im comfortable with. age wont be an issue with him unless we plan on extending him more than 2 years. as for fairley and hill being younger. its true but i wonder how relevant it is. lets say hill plays great on his RFA tender contract this season - then all of a sudden he s an Unrestricted FA and you have to decide if ur going to overpay to keep him or let him walk. Hill and Williams both only have a year left, the age isnt really relevant until it comes time to make a decision on if you will bring them back and for how long. both should be productive in the time left on there contracts.

I'm all for getting younger and building through the draft, but IMO it's possible to overdo it. All these people calling for the heads of Burleson, KVB, and C Williams are overlooking Tampa Bay last season. They were supposedly the 'youngriest' team around, but as soon as they hit a rough spot, their season entered a death spiral--I'd argue it's because they didn't have the right veteran leadership.

I'd blame their horrible coach more than anything.

Hey now, can't it be both?

_________________If you think education is tough, try being stoopid.

March 19th, 2012, 12:21 am

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3419Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: rumor has it

Footsoldier32 wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

The Legend wrote:

Quote:

First off, we have two highly paid DTs that will see more playing time in 2012 than Williams. Backus, like him or not, has not missed a game in his career, and rarely misses a single offensive snap. We are paying Williams $6M per year to be a rotational player. And I'm sorry, but Cory just wasn't that effective last season. Teams focused on Suh, and Williams didn't pick up the slack at all. Not one iota. There were times he was being taken completely out of the play by a single blocker. That isn't what he's being paid for. If the Lions were to release Cory Williams today, do you think another team will pay him $6M per season? I don't. Particularly since he proved he can't play the 5 technique for a team running a 34, and isn't a threat as an interior pass rusher for the 43. He is limited in his scope of play. Sammie Lee Hill is a better all around DT than Cory Williams. He needs to reduce his cap number.

hmmm fairley is on a 4 yr/10 mill deal - i dont consider that highly paid. further nobody wants to talk about the reality that his foot injury is going to be a chronic problem - he ll be a great player in spurts but push him past 20-25 plays consistently and that 5th metatarsal will break again and again. as for williams and hill - you cannot be serious. i like hill, he is a hard working tough player but he doesnt have the lateral agility, quickness, and athleticism that williams has and is nowhere near as good using his hands or reading blocks. 2011 was a big season for him but i doubt he will EVER be as good as Williams has been the past two seasons. finally when williams was traded to detroit his contract was essentially restructured to 3 yrs/12.5 mill (2.7/4.9/4.9) and i dont believe his signing bonus money counts against detroit as cleveland is the team that gave it to him. if williams were to leave i could see another team giving him a 3 yr/12 mill deal with a 4 mill signing bonus and 2/3/3 which would be more than the 4.9 mill he ll make this year in detroit so yes i do think he could make more on the market.

ur comments on backus - i wasnt dissing backus. im well aware of the iron man streak but im also well aware of the fact that he s ruptured two tendons in the past year. that in no way is a good sign that the streak is going to make it 32 more games and im sure mayhew knows that - its clear to me mayhew wants this team to keep its veterans and its leadership until the younger guys show a little more maturity. KVB/Corey/Backus/Raiola/Burleson fit that profile.

finally on the age issue - i think its only relevant if you look at the age and the end of the contract. if the player looks like he s going to be washed up when ur paying him a lot then age is relevant. corey will be in his contract year at age 32 - thats something im comfortable with. age wont be an issue with him unless we plan on extending him more than 2 years. as for fairley and hill being younger. its true but i wonder how relevant it is. lets say hill plays great on his RFA tender contract this season - then all of a sudden he s an Unrestricted FA and you have to decide if ur going to overpay to keep him or let him walk. Hill and Williams both only have a year left, the age isnt really relevant until it comes time to make a decision on if you will bring them back and for how long. both should be productive in the time left on there contracts.

I'm all for getting younger and building through the draft, but IMO it's possible to overdo it. All these people calling for the heads of Burleson, KVB, and C Williams are overlooking Tampa Bay last season. They were supposedly the 'youngriest' team around, but as soon as they hit a rough spot, their season entered a death spiral--I'd argue it's because they didn't have the right veteran leadership.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10019Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: rumor has it

The Legend wrote:

hmmm fairley is on a 4 yr/10 mill deal - i dont consider that highly paid. further nobody wants to talk about the reality that his foot injury is going to be a chronic problem - he ll be a great player in spurts but push him past 20-25 plays consistently and that 5th metatarsal will break again and again. as for williams and hill - you cannot be serious. i like hill, he is a hard working tough player but he doesnt have the lateral agility, quickness, and athleticism that williams has and is nowhere near as good using his hands or reading blocks. 2011 was a big season for him but i doubt he will EVER be as good as Williams has been the past two seasons. finally when williams was traded to detroit his contract was essentially restructured to 3 yrs/12.5 mill (2.7/4.9/4.9) and i dont believe his signing bonus money counts against detroit as cleveland is the team that gave it to him. if williams were to leave i could see another team giving him a 3 yr/12 mill deal with a 4 mill signing bonus and 2/3/3 which would be more than the 4.9 mill he ll make this year in detroit so yes i do think he could make more on the market.

You had better check your facts on Hill vs. Williams. Hill is younger and faster. Hill was our BEST DT at pressuring the QB last season, when looking at his pressures per snaps played. Yes, our BEST. I suggest, if possible, you go back and look at some tape on Hill and see just how good he really was. To state that he'll never be as good as Williams is foolish, because he's already better than Williams in that aspect. Hill still needs to work on some aspects of his game against the run, but it's not like Cory was the immovable object in the middle of our line. And based on Cory counting $6M against the cap versus something like a million or so for Hill, I'd say Hill is a MUCH better value. Sorry, but Williams simply isn't worth what the Lions are paying him. That's my opinion, and it won't change unless Williams produces a Pro Bowl like year.

Quote:

ur comments on backus - i wasnt dissing backus. im well aware of the iron man streak but im also well aware of the fact that he s ruptured two tendons in the past year. that in no way is a good sign that the streak is going to make it 32 more games and im sure mayhew knows that - its clear to me mayhew wants this team to keep its veterans and its leadership until the younger guys show a little more maturity. KVB/Corey/Backus/Raiola/Burleson fit that profile.

I think Mayhew signed him to a two year deal that will likely be just a one year deal. If Backus gets injured or can't play a significant part of this season, I would expect the Lions to cut him loose in 2013. But retaining Backus had to be done, particularly with McNeill making demands like he won't sign if Backus is resigned. He can hit the bricks on that. I despise, DESPISE players who make demands like that. Good riddance. Go be on someone elses roster under the Injured Reserve category. There are no other FA LTs on the market worth a serious look. Demetrius Bell is the only one I can think of, and he is demanding top money, from what I understand. I think he's about as good as Backus, maybe better as a run blocker but not quite the pass blocker. Young and healthy, yes. But he wouldn't settle for a 2 year deal, let alone $5M per.

Quote:

finally on the age issue - i think its only relevant if you look at the age and the end of the contract. if the player looks like he s going to be washed up when ur paying him a lot then age is relevant. corey will be in his contract year at age 32 - thats something im comfortable with. age wont be an issue with him unless we plan on extending him more than 2 years. as for fairley and hill being younger. its true but i wonder how relevant it is. lets say hill plays great on his RFA tender contract this season - then all of a sudden he s an Unrestricted FA and you have to decide if ur going to overpay to keep him or let him walk. Hill and Williams both only have a year left, the age isnt really relevant until it comes time to make a decision on if you will bring them back and for how long. both should be productive in the time left on there contracts.

Here's the deal with that. With Cory, we've already paid him a healthy amount, and at age 32 he'd be looking at making at least equal to that, or more, and with Hill he'd just be hitting his peak if we signed him to a big contract. If Hill walks, he walks. Remember, they could also choose to tag Hill next season, if they need to. Both Hill and Williams are solid players. I'm not calling Cory Williams a garbage DT, at all. I'm just saying that I feel the Lions should find a way to reduce his cap hit.

I understand that you feel Fairley won't be able to overcome that broken foot, but you can't be certain. Different people handle injuries different ways. Julian Peterson ruptured his Achilles with the 49ers, and folks said he'd never be the same. But he went on to have some PB years with Seattle. Others have had that injury and their careers were pretty much over. I know the prognosis with Fairley isn't great, but I would wait to see what he does this year before making that conclusion. If he continues to have problems, then it won't cost much for the Lions to cut him loose.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

March 19th, 2012, 10:59 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10019Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: rumor has it

thelomasbrowns wrote:

I'm all for getting younger and building through the draft, but IMO it's possible to overdo it. All these people calling for the heads of Burleson, KVB, and C Williams are overlooking Tampa Bay last season. They were supposedly the 'youngriest' team around, but as soon as they hit a rough spot, their season entered a death spiral--I'd argue it's because they didn't have the right veteran leadership.

Whose calling for those three to get cut? Burleson is the one player I think the Lions can do without, but if he reduced his cap number (which I believe he already did) then fine. I still say the Lions can do better at their Z position than him, because he's just not that much of a threat. He is easily taken off his route at the LOS, and is ineffective running routes in the middle of the field. As for KVB, I have no issues with him. He may not be as effective now as he was in his youth, but he still brings it every play, every game and I'll take his 8-9 sacks per year at his pay scale. As for Williams, I have simply said I want the Lions to reduce his cap hit. Extend him, ask him to take a pay cut, whatever. I don't think he's worth the $6M against the cap this season. He didn't impress me with his efforts last season. Was anyone else that impressed with him? In 2010 he did great. Not so much last season. The question is, can we expect to see the Cory of 2010 or 2011? If the latter, then he's not worth it. If it means cutting him because he won't take a pay cut or restructure, then so be it. I think Hill is better anyways, and deserves more snaps. A fourth DT can be had for far less than $6M per year.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

March 19th, 2012, 11:08 am

thelomasbrowns

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2431

Re: rumor has it

m2karateman wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

I'm all for getting younger and building through the draft, but IMO it's possible to overdo it. All these people calling for the heads of Burleson, KVB, and C Williams are overlooking Tampa Bay last season. They were supposedly the 'youngriest' team around, but as soon as they hit a rough spot, their season entered a death spiral--I'd argue it's because they didn't have the right veteran leadership.

Whose calling for those three to get cut? Burleson is the one player I think the Lions can do without, but if he reduced his cap number (which I believe he already did) then fine. I still say the Lions can do better at their Z position than him, because he's just not that much of a threat. He is easily taken off his route at the LOS, and is ineffective running routes in the middle of the field. As for KVB, I have no issues with him. He may not be as effective now as he was in his youth, but he still brings it every play, every game and I'll take his 8-9 sacks per year at his pay scale. As for Williams, I have simply said I want the Lions to reduce his cap hit. Extend him, ask him to take a pay cut, whatever. I don't think he's worth the $6M against the cap this season. He didn't impress me with his efforts last season. Was anyone else that impressed with him? In 2010 he did great. Not so much last season. The question is, can we expect to see the Cory of 2010 or 2011? If the latter, then he's not worth it. If it means cutting him because he won't take a pay cut or restructure, then so be it. I think Hill is better anyways, and deserves more snaps. A fourth DT can be had for far less than $6M per year.

I wasn't calling you out in particular. But in the main forum there are a lot of people calling for the heads of the vets that only see the positive element (lower cap hit). I'm just pointing out that there are intangibles to consider as well.

_________________"There were a couple times where I was just like, 'Is that legal?" Warford said. "Cause he was getting laid out. I was like, 'Someone might call the cops. This is not fair.'"

March 19th, 2012, 1:26 pm

allenslions

Varsity Captain

Joined: February 10th, 2011, 4:08 amPosts: 306

Re: rumor has it

Actually the reason fairleys foot gave him so much trouble is he had a screw in his foot and it was agravating the surounding tissue.it has since been remove so he should be fine.u

March 19th, 2012, 6:30 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4026Location: WSU

Re: rumor has it

screw removal is a bad idea for these fractures especially in athletes. i seriously doubt that the screw was removed especially this early unless he already re broke the bone. if they did remove the screw for the reason you said it increases the chance that he will break it again and if thats the case i could almost guarantee he will break that bone again.

March 19th, 2012, 8:25 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4026Location: WSU

Re: rumor has it

Quote:

You had better check your facts on Hill vs. Williams. Hill is younger and faster. Hill was our BEST DT at pressuring the QB last season, when looking at his pressures per snaps played. Yes, our BEST. I suggest, if possible, you go back and look at some tape on Hill and see just how good he really was. To state that he'll never be as good as Williams is foolish, because he's already better than Williams in that aspect. Hill still needs to work on some aspects of his game against the run, but it's not like Cory was the immovable object in the middle of our line. And based on Cory counting $6M against the cap versus something like a million or so for Hill, I'd say Hill is a MUCH better value. Sorry, but Williams simply isn't worth what the Lions are paying him. That's my opinion, and it won't change unless Williams produces a Pro Bowl like year.

i agree that hill has been good - he was quite a bit better this pasy year than he s been in the past but i still dont like his ability to read blocks, redirect his momentum and i dont think he uses his hands all that well. i actually have all 21 games from last season on DVR and do put them on from time to time. corey was outstanding in 2010 - wasnt quite as productive as suh but a lot (i would even say most) of suh s big plays were bc of corey. corey wasnt quite as good in 2011 but he s still much better than hill. i give hill credit, he s become a player but i wouldnt be happy at all with cutting williams for the money (which we are going to use on who again?), then having fairley get re injured bc he s playing too many snaps and being stuck with Suh/Hill/ and Fluellen or some street FAs. depth falls off quick and thats fine if you think hill is better or at least a better value, but we still need corey williams.

it also pretty much a done deal for corner jacob lacey he should be signed pretty soon.

Sounds like this has now happened.

March 20th, 2012, 11:18 am

allenslions

Varsity Captain

Joined: February 10th, 2011, 4:08 amPosts: 306

Re: rumor has it

Itts looks as of now with the jets beating us to the punch on landry that our lions will be turning there attention to y.bell recently released from miami.bell was a standout on miami,s defence.he is a huge upgrade at the position.it also is getting close on the tulloch deal.I would say by the end of the week.

March 20th, 2012, 12:29 pm

njroar

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 2833

Re: rumor has it

allenslions wrote:

Itts looks as of now with the jets beating us to the punch on landry that our lions will be turning there attention to y.bell recently released from miami.bell was a standout on miami,s defence.he is a huge upgrade at the position.it also is getting close on the tulloch deal.I would say by the end of the week.

Atogwe is in for visit today/tomorrow. Who would you rate higher of the two?

March 20th, 2012, 1:11 pm

LionsFan4Life

Fired Head Coach (0-16 record)

Joined: October 30th, 2004, 12:30 pmPosts: 2205Location: Austin, TX

Re: rumor has it

njroar wrote:

allenslions wrote:

Itts looks as of now with the jets beating us to the punch on landry that our lions will be turning there attention to y.bell recently released from miami.bell was a standout on miami,s defence.he is a huge upgrade at the position.it also is getting close on the tulloch deal.I would say by the end of the week.

Atogwe is in for visit today/tomorrow. Who would you rate higher of the two?

I like Atogwe better.. but either one would be an upgrade over Spievey.

_________________

NEVER GIVE UP!

March 20th, 2012, 1:45 pm

allenslions

Varsity Captain

Joined: February 10th, 2011, 4:08 amPosts: 306

Re: rumor has it

Bell is the better fit for us.atogwe is a freelance type that delmas is better suited for.bell can come in an be our up in the box safety.

March 20th, 2012, 6:01 pm

inheritedlionsfan

Team MVP

Joined: January 13th, 2006, 4:18 amPosts: 3347Location: Maryland

Re: rumor has it

Age is a factor with both guys. Bell just turned 34 and Atogowe will be 31 very soon. How much does either really have left?