-should I open with rapport first because its more genuine, or use opinion openers?

-should I try to seduce her, or entertain the group?

-should I engage the whole group, or go straight up to the girl?

-is body language and tonality and having an aura of alphaness really enough to attract girls, or do I need to memorize routines?

-can I talk my way out of a lay, by trying to hard to use all this "game"? What I want to address here, is that these questions do not have blanket answers. I want to break down *what* the tactics are that we use, why we use them in particular orders, and whether its even necessary to deliberately use them at all.

Some stuff we all use is:

(V) Social-Value tactics (peacocking, social proof, subcommunicating that you are in and on top of their scene, and the way that you carry yourself in
general - you are generally a COOL guy and its obvious)

(C) Comfort material (commonalities, exchanging values, yes-ladders,
kino/kissing, vulnerability, talking about the emotional relevance of things and seeing how she responsds, spending approximately 7 hours together and just "being together", testing for trust via leaving stuff with eachother or not taking the chance to make each other feel uncomfortable when the opportunity comes up)

(Q) Qualification material (making her perceive that she has unique value to
you, arbitrary qualifiers "I love redheads", emotional qualifiers "I just feel
good around you", hard qualifying "Is there more to you than meets the eye? What do you have going for you?", presenting hoops "I want x,y,z in a girl.. (so she'll say she has them), genuine compliments, M2F/F2M"

So typically, we use the formula of V, A, C, Q, S. That's a tried and true formula -> it works.

There is no *perfect* model, and if you're a natural, you don't even need to think about this stuff. You may do it nonetheless, but its unconscious.

But just in terms of advanced game theory, its interesting to just see that these are elements that in general will usually go into an interaction that leads to sex. It's also funny to note that a year ago this post would be considered very advanced, but just in terms of how we've progressed as a chatgroup, this post is actually very basic and obvious stuff (it really belongs in 'General'). I think that's really cool.

So anyway, to map out why the linear progression typically works, in the particular order of V, A, C, Q, S, we could just look at what typically is necessary:

AN EXAMPLE OF A LINEAR PROGRESSION (this is just a sweeping generalization):

In most sets, the real hotties won't even give you the time of fucking day unless you are dressed cool, have other girls that want you, you look like you're just a cool guy who is hanging at the venue and although other girls are chasing you you're not wasting your time trying to sleep with them (puts you on the LEVEL of the super hottie HB10s since they do the same), and show that you have the mannerisms and SUBTLE knowledge that the guys who are at the top of their scene have.

From that point, you can open. Yep, a 10 will actually (GASP!) *talk* to you.

Congratulate yourself.

You have the basic level of social value that's necessary for the girls to be willing to chat you. Like, in Miami South Beach, me being a younger guy wearing a "Pimp The Clown" shirt won't fly. Likewise, acting REALLY FUN won't work either. That's because its mostly model golddiggers trying to get rich mafioso. So I dress COOLER than the mafioso, by being like TURBO mafioso. Then I act COOLER than them, by taking on their mannerisms (like I outlined in that long post about A-list social scenes), but act COOLER than them. Notice the word "COOLER" all through this paragraph.. ---> BE COOL!

From there, she may talk to you but she'll still blow you off fast, unless you
do something to make yourself emotionally relevant to her. Otherwise, you're just a shitty boring movie that she wants to walk out of. You can't go immediately into rapport or act sexual, because they'll screen you as autopilot response (many many guys have tried that already tonight). They're 10s in looks, and you're a 7. They already have fuckbuddies or boyfriends (90%+ of hot girls are already getting laid), and they're supposedly out to "have fun and dance" with their friends.

So we bust in with canned openers (or a COOL one that you came up with on the spot) to break their pattern of rejecting every guy that comes their way, and they actually talk to you for even a few minutes more. Then we pummel them with (A) material, to get them wanting to talk to you more.

The push/pull and DHVs and all that. This is the GLUE that forces them to sit there and actually get to know you as the pickup progresses. And that's the thing. Even though we spend alot of time on this board discussing the (A) phase (perhaps because so few people ever get beyond it), but actually its the (C) phase that gets you the girl.

So you get to know the girl and build massive comfort and trust. She loves you. You're awesome. It wasn't the (A) material that got you to this point. BUT, it was the (A) material that got her to even acknowledge you in the first place.

Having built comfort, she will still throw up anti-slut-defenses if she hasn't done anything to impress you. The reason for that, is that her social conditioning tells her "This guy just came up to me and made me want to sleep with him. Now he's trying to ask for my # or extract me. But I've done nothing to impress him. He must sleep with every girl he approaches. I'm not going to be the next notch on his bedpost". So she flakes you off, despite that she's attracted to you.

Of course, to avoid that we then use (Q) based material. We compliment, and use the other tactics listed above. This makes her think "WOW, I really have what it takes for this awesome guy!"

Note, btw, that there are times where you *actually* have a very natural connection with a girl. You just hit it off amazingly well. So for those girls, there is no need to deliberately qualify. You can, but its not absolutely necessary or anything. She can sense it, and so can you. But most super hotties are ditzy by nature. They're about as intelligent as YOU would be, if you had everything handed to you on a silver platter. So who can blame them. But that doesn't mean you don't want to hook up with them, so you need to make the effort to qualify them.

From there, their ASD wall goes down, and you can go sexual. You phase shift, and she'll be open to it.

The linear progression works consistently on most sets. Makes sense. It works. It's field tested by various guys for many many lays.

OK, so cool. We have reasonably a linear model. However, in spite of that, there are still real world scenarios that pop up, that raise questions.

1** Deliberately installing the elements of V, A, C, Q, S into every sarge is not always necessary. Many interactions have them structured into them already, so you need not consciously install them.

2** The particularly order of V, A, C, Q, S is just something that OFTEN works, but it is not always necessary to follow that particular order. They can often be mixed and matched.

These 5 elements are just generalized things that we can pretty much assume are necessary elements of a pickup. But there are many many interactions that have these elements already pre-installed, and many many interactions where the particular ordering of V first, then A, then C, etc, is actually NOT as effective as mixing up the order.

Let's look at a few cases:

PARTIES:

You're at a party. Portions of (C) is taken care of, because your girls' friends all vouch for you, and you come from the same social circle (so the trust is there, but you still have to connect with the girl so there is still some work). (Q) may even be taken care of to a certain extent, because it is social custom to hook up with friends of friends (its at least easier). (V) is even often taken care of, because social value is assumed, just so long as you are one of the more alpha and charismatic guys at the party.

Also, it is UNNECESSARY to open with attract based material. You don't need to use opinion openers to start, and you don't need to use (A) type material right away, because the girl is LOCKED IN to talking to you. It's a party among friends. She has to talk to someone, and if you're a cool enough guy it will probably be you. The same goes for A-List top venues, where you have to be a SOMEBODY to even be permitted into the venue. The girls assume that you're a hot-shot, so you don't have to pummel them with push/pull right away, just to have them willing to sit there and chat you.

At the same time, you don't want to go in and try too hard for rapport either. Like you don't want to go in there boring as fuck. Just go in natural. Say "Hey", and wait for her to qualify herself a bit. Sit there until she answers, like its ASSUMED that the two of you should talk to eachother because its a social gathering. Talk about something really fucking cool that you saw. Then build commonality that the two of you are in the same scene, and she'll be intrigued with you a bit. Then, once you have a sort of rapport, BAM you can slip in the push/pull and tease her a bit.

This is a GREAT formulation for the following reason: You can make her comfortable enough to justify sleeping with you, and then BAM you up up up buying temperature. You can literally just pull her into the bedroom of the party and full monty right there.

It's not like with the A prior to C formulation, where you have to worry about her losing state while you're building comfort.

But if that's a problem, then why do we typically use the A first and C second formulation? Again, its because she won't be willing to even TALK to you if you haven't dealt with A.

At a party though, this isn't the case. So it makes much more sense to use a bit of attract just to not be categorized as a chump, but to build up comfort and fractionate between the two a bit, and then REALLY PUMP the attraction when you're ready to seduce.

YOU'RE COOLER OR BETTER LOOKING THAN THE GIRL:

If you're very obviously cooler or more attractive than the girl, you can go in
with (Q) first. You can literally walk up and compliment her. That's why so many guys say they like compliment openers. They've had luck with them. Of course they're not telling you that they're goodlooking or socially proofed guys, or that they're sleeping with 7s.

YES, I open with compliments. I've done it many times.

Likewise, I've walked up and just introduced myself. Like I'll walk up and extend my hand and say "Hey, I'm Tyler. I thought you looked like someone I'd like to meet. Those are the coolest looking glasses I've seen in a long time. They rock. Where did you get them?"

Why the fuck not? If the girl looks shy, this will OPEN HER UP. Just so long as it doesn't come across like you're trying to manipulate her, its fine. Note that the alot of guys just come across SO COOL by their bodylanguage and tonality, that they can get away with zero routines or anything. They just need to walk up, tease a bit and let her know that he's interested, and she'll go for it.

The same goes for group sets. If you're that cool of a guy, occassionally the
girl will signal to her friends "I LIKE THIS ONE, SO DO NOT COCKBLOCK THIS". The friends will back off. Group theory won't be needed. This is obvious, as girls DO get picked up in clubs by guys who don't know group theory. It's just not consistent (so saying "guys get laid all the time without all this stuff" is a logical fallacy, because yes they DO, but its not CONSISTENT like the way it is with using tactics). Personally I never bank on this though, because even if you have this, you will still often get cockblocked. The peergroup will just get jealous, and force it. So I engage the whole group, because I feel that nothing can be lost from it. You can always go sexual down the line - there is no time limit on it, IME. Still, that's not to say that going up direct can't be done. It CAN.

PARTY CHICKS:

In the case of party chicks, they are usually very hyper and not thinking about safety consequences or social consequences.

So that being the case, there is no discomfort. They aren't afraid of you raping them if you get them alone, because they'd LIKE for you to jump on them.

Likewise, they aren't worried about being sluts, because they ARE sluts, and they embrace that image as who they are. Girls like this are called "laddettes" in Britain. Samantha Jones from the TV show 'Sex and the City' is a girl like that also.

Getting to know a guy is a potential turnoff for her, because she may have BECOME a party chick because she was hurt by a past guy who she fell in love with and let her down. So making her fall in love with you will just turn her off. She wants fun sex, and that's it.

So the (C) and (Q) are taken care of. The comfort is that she doesn't give a shit, and the qualification is that she's a horny girl and you can provide her with her sexual needs. That's it.

GIRLS CONSCIOUSLY LOOKING FOR SEX:

Oftentimes, girls will be in a bad relationship, or have just broken up, or
will not have gotten laid in a long time. They are at a point where they just
want sex. They're open to it. If you approach enough women, you will find them. You will have value to these girls, just by virtue of having a dick in your pants. If they are down with the program, you can cut to the chase. Likewise, you may be a sex fantasy to the girl. Take a 34 year old woman. Do you think that me, as a super cool looking 24 year old, has to game her that much? No way. She just wants validation that her hours in the gym have attracted a young toy-boy. I can go in neutral, and just phase shift and spend a few hours just escalating kino and phase shifting, and we'll have sex.

The same goes for extremely buffed or goodlooking guys, who get laid all the time.

They have no game, but they're confident and cool enough not to disqualify
themselves when a girl wants them, so they get laid.

=======

Anyway, these are just a few examples.

I could post more, but I think its just common sense.

What I'm trying to convey in this post is:

1- There are identifiable elements in almost all successful pickups.

2- Some of these elements must be deliberately installed, while others are
often taken care of for you before you've even gone in. You therefore need not deliberately focus on them, for fear of visibly "trying too hard".

3- There is a sequence that typically works best, because typical pickup situations call for it. However, many situations allow for you to mix and match the order in which you install the elements, or allow you not to have to install them at all.

===

I hope that this answers alot of questions as to stuff like "Should I compliment or not?" or "Is it ungenuine to go in with canned stuff? Do I really have to use it?", etc etc.

What I'm saying is that its situational. It depends on the circumstances. All of these things that we use on **** are tactics that are used in certain situations. There is no black and white.

Also, I'm hoping that this will encourage guys not to think so linear, and talk themselves out of easy lays by trying too hard to adhere to a set model. *UNDERSTAND* why each phase in the model is necessary, and use common sense to decide whether or not to focus on them.