Michael has flipped over 1100 houses in his 10 year flipping career. Joe and Michael will discuss some mistakes he’s made, and what we can learn from those mistakes. We’ll also get some actionable tips from Michael on how to find and negotiate deals. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!

Our fourth annual conference will be taking place February 20-22 in Keystone, CO. We’ll be covering the higher level topics that our audience has requested to hear.

TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff; we hate that fluffy stuff, so we don’t get into it. With us today, Michael Green. How are you doing, Michael?

Michael Green: I’m doing great, Joe. Thanks for inviting me on, man.

Joe Fairless: Well, I am glad to hear that, and it’s my pleasure. A little bit about Michael – he has been investing in real estate for the last ten years. He has flipped over 1,100 homes in that time. Based in Baltimore, Maryland, which I was commenting to him prior to recording, I really enjoyed visiting Baltimore a year or so ago. Not enough good things get said about Baltimore; just a great town. With that being said, Michael, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Michael Green: Absolutely. I’ve been investing, like Joe said, for ten years in real estate. I got started in 2009. I started in there — I’m an analytical guy, so I read books for six years before I made my first offer; it’s just the way I am. I like to read, study… It wasn’t until I was playing poker with a friend and I was telling him I wanna invest in real estate, and do this stuff… He was like “Let’s just do it.” Obviously, for him, seven seconds in he’s ready to flip a house. I’m six years in and I can’t even make a choice… He was like “Let’s do it!” I gave him about a hundred reasons not to; he actually started just seeing houses, he was like “Dude, with or without you…” And eventually, I started to get some FOMO, so I’m like “Alright, I’ll do it with you.” He was the reason I did my first deal. I’m very thankful. Obviously, awful business partner, because he didn’t think through things, and all that… But so much gratitude, so much love for him, because without him I might still be reading books and waiting to make my first offer.

So I got started about ten years ago; it went really well, surprisingly. The first house was hard, it took us like four months, but because of the six years of studying, I think I was pretty well prepared for it. I made some good choices; I still made money (about $30,000 on my first deal), split it with him, he was really happy, and then we went on to do a bunch of deals after that.

So to this day, I’ve done about 1,100 deals. The spread for me is kind of the separation. I’ve done about 800 flips, fix and flips, and a bunch of wholesale deals, too. I like to balance everything out. When deals come in, I wanna make sure that — if the deal fits really well, they don’t keep it as a rehab. If it doesn’t, I’ll usually wholesale it off. Just timing, money, manpower…

Joe Fairless: Yup. What were you doing over those six years?

Michael Green: I was a hardwood floor installer. That’s how I got into it. Everyone says “Well, you’re a contractor, so it was easy for you.” I was like, “Well, I only do the hardwood. There’s like 50 other items that you have to do.” So yes, the hardwood was very easy for me, but nothing else was. I didn’t know anything about construction other than how to put a hardwood floor in. That was it. So yeah, that’s what I was doing. And I hated it, by the way. I got in trouble as a kid, didn’t graduate high school, I didn’t have very many options, so my stepfather was willing to teach me how to do hardwood. It was the biggest gift I could ever have as a kid who really didn’t have a lot of prospects, didn’t have an MBA, a college degree… So I ended up making pretty good money. Obviously, I was making well over 100k a year as a high school dropout, and I was impressed with myself.

Joe Fairless: Wow.

Michael Green: Now, the problem was I was making about 100k a year and spending about 120k. The American dream, right?

Joe Fairless: [laughs] And you said you were studying over those six years… What did you study?

Michael Green: Well, back then we didn’t have YouTube, podcasts, all this stuff ten years ago it wasn’t really out.

Joe Fairless: So 2003 to 2009, I guess?

Michael Green: Yeah, you got it right. So it was books, some random books by random people… And it was some online stuff, we had online, but it wasn’t like today, where there’s a million people teaching so much amazing stuff. Getting access to that stuff was near impossible. As I started to put it out into the world when I decided to do this flip, I actually was out doing some hardwood for a guy who was actually a flipper, and he invited me to a free seminar, which is very common now, but there was like one in the country going on back then… And this guy said “Hey man, you’re making all these mistakes”, and he was 100% right; he’d been doing it 30 years… And I ended up paying him 15k to coach me, and that was my first coach.

Joe Fairless: What were the mistakes?

Michael Green: I didn’t know anything. I was just making offers, I didn’t know the numbers… My numbers made no sense, obviously. So he started to teach me the numbers, he started to teach me how to go direct to private seller versus MLS, and really how to compete, how to negotiate, just how to do everything at a much higher level.

Books are really big at just giving you a very vague overview. He really got me into the science of negotiating and marketing, and going direct to seller, and creating processes and systems. He was really good; he wasn’t the best coach, but some of the stuff he was great at was how to find a deal and how to negotiate a deal, and I obviously still use his stuff today.

Joe Fairless: Well, let’s talk about how to find a deal and how to negotiate a deal. Let’s talk about the first part first. How do you find a deal and go direct to a private seller?

Michael Green: Finding a deal direct to private seller… Everyone asks me “Michael, what’s your secret?” I do a lot of volume every years, and they’re like “What’s your favorite thing?” What I’ve realized in the last couple of years for me, my big takeaway, and how I’ve really shifted my business in the last couple of years has been everything about being productive and being efficient.

Right now I do about 20 deals a year on the MLS, I do 10 deals a year from wholesalers, I’m doing direct mail, which everyone’s saying it doesn’t work anymore… It’s definitely taken a downturn as far as conversion as far as how many calls you get for how many letters you send out… But where we’ve made up for that is instead of worrying about the fact that the mail is not working as well, I’m now converting at double the rate that I was converting before. Three years ago, one in 22 calls I would get a deal. Now I’m like one in 8 to one in 10. And what I do differently is I’ll spend about two hours on an appointment, where before, because I had so much volume, I would only spend 30-40 minutes and it was all about getting in, getting out. Now it’s about building rapport, and really taking it to that next level.

So really everything works. It’s hard for me to say, “Hey, Joe, this is my secret weapon, this is my thing.” If you really take everything we’ve always done and you think of it at a higher level, you realize that you can actually do everything that you’ve done before, but just take it one or two steps above, really roll out the red carpet, treat your sellers with a high level of respect, build rapport with them… Actually come from a place of gratitude and giving back to them in service… It’s really been my secret weapon.

My new sales technique is I don’t sell anymore. No more closing. I literally am just super-transparent and people are really loving it right now… Because I think they’ve been indoctrinated with all the car-salesy stuff over the years.

Joe Fairless: Let’s talk about that… You said you’re converting at a rate double as what you were converting before, and it’s because you’re spending about double the amount of time per appointment, building that rapport, having the giving back mentality… So talk to us about what a typical meeting was like when you were doing well, but you were spending 40 minutes, and then we’ll talk about the two-hour meeting.

Michael Green: When I would do 40 minutes — obviously, five years ago the market was amazing for us. It was so easy to get deals. We were totally in a buyers’ market then, and now we’re in a sellers’ market. Back then people were very distressed, so you could just be a jerk and get deals. It wasn’t really an indication of you doing a great job if you went out and got deals, because people were so motivated. Now they’re not as motivated. They know they have options, they’re certainly in power. So now they’ll pick you based on whether they like you and wanna do business with you.

Joe Fairless: I doubt you were being a jerk, so tell us just high-level – will you walk through the 40-minute meeting first? Like, you arrive, you knock on the door… What next? Or maybe we should start a little bit before that, you tell me.

Michael Green: Basically, the 40-minute – a quick call, the basic information, what condition is the house in; everything you’ve heard, you’re learning, we were doing back then. We learned from FortuneBuilders and all the different gurus. It worked really well. It worked enough for us to do a lot of houses… But we would really cut things short. If they wanted to talk about their grandkids, and pictures and all that – I’m a very impatient person, so I would always circle things back and I’d be like “Alright, let’s get down to business.” And that worked really well back then.

Now I can spend two hours and legitimately 10 or 15 minutes will be about business, and the rest will be about personal stuff. I’m actually encouraging them to talk about personal stuff. I want them to like me so much that if I can’t buy the deal because they have a higher offer, I’ll be very honest and tell them to take the higher offer, but I want them to be sad that they’re not working with me. That’s my different approach today, and it’s what I’ve had to do in order to combat how competitive it is. And it feels better, by the way. I feel like I’m coming from such a better place these days than I was back then.

What questions do you ask them to generate the type of feelings of “I want them to be sad if they don’t work with me?”

Michael Green: A lot of them it is building rapport and just showing a true empathy. When you’re really honest and transparent with people, it’s gonna gain a lot of rapport. Questions I’ll ask is “Tell me what’s important to you about this deal, or what are you trying to accomplish? How long have you lived here?” When I get into those – those questions are my starters. But when they give me the answers, instead of just stopping there, I’m using questions like “Oh, that’s interesting. Tell me more about that.” “Oh, I’ve never heard that before. What made you do this?” It’s just these [unintelligible [00:09:58].18] to the questions. So it’s literally like this rabbit trail that we can go down.

We start with a question you’ve probably heard and many people are using, but it’s really what I do after the question, where I’m going and taking it. We’ll go from “Tell me what’s important to you about selling the house” and they’ll be like “Okay, this, this and this”, the standard stuff you hear… And they might just say one little thing “It’s important so I can spend more time with my grandson.” “Oh, your grandson… How old is he? What’s important, what do you love to do with him?” “Oh, I love baseball.” “Baseball? Really? I used to play baseball when I was a kid.” “What positions did you play?” And from there, next thing you know we’re talking about politics religion… Who knows. All the stuff we shouldn’t talk about, but I take a very neutral position, easy to get along with…

And man, we’re just the best of friends at some point, because it starts from there, but it’s about being willing to just let it go anywhere it wants. And I used to hate this, by the way. I was totally against this, because I had a partner at the time, and he was that guy; he was the guy who wouldn’t close the deal, but we would get invited to a cookout…

Joe Fairless: [laughs]

Michael Green: He was just so awesome. When I look back at it, the perfect version of a real estate investor is half him, half me. I got to the point, he just built rapport, they hugged him at the end… Now I’m getting the hugs, but I can’t get the business… And I know when it’s time to get to business, but it’s often well after we’ve really gotten in some deeper, personal stuff. And I think it’s meaningful to them, because a lot of my competitors are coming in and are like “Hey, don’t waste any time…” It’s a very surface, a very superficial conversation, where ours is very deep and very personal.

Joe Fairless: Well, I’m really glad you mentioned the former partner, where you wouldn’t get the close, but he’d get invited to the cookout… I love that. And you just mentioned that you got the rapport built, now you know also how to make sure it connects back to business… So that can be a tough transition; clearly, it was for one person that you know… What are some tips for how to transition into the business side of things, and make sure that you are getting invited to the cookout in order to sign the contract to close?

Joe Fairless: [laughs] Almost as amazing as free burgers and free property. That’s how you’d really know you built rapport.

Michael Green: Yeah, that’s the ultimate peak. So look, I let them choose. I’m very regimented; I’m like “Okay, at this point we’ll do this, and that…”, and I’ve really let loose of that, because I believe that’s been my downfall in the past, and what’s really taken away from my ability to do this at a high level. So if they wanna talk for two hours about family, at some point obviously we’ll have to stop, but I can tell when we’re starting to get winded…

Or I’ll say “Well, man, it’s been great talking with you, Joe. You’re really awesome to get along with, and we just have a lot in common…. And I really wanna do this deal with you. Let’s talk a little bit about the numbers, let’s talk a little bit about business, because I really would love to do this for you and help you out, and get this deal done, and get you the money your family wants.” By that point I know everything that’s important to them, so I can really just list the benefits of what they want and how I can help. And I kind of went from telling, where I would just be like “Here’s what we do, here’s how long we’ve been in business”, to just really repeating now what they’re into and what they want, and nothing more. It’s really all they care about, by the way.

Joe Fairless: Now let’s talk about what you said earlier, the science of negotiating and marketing. So you’ve built rapport with them, you know they’re selling because they wanna spend time with Junior, who is playing baseball and they wanna play catch with Junior all the time, and be closer to him… And they have certain terms that would not work for you to do the deal. How do you approach negotiating?

Michael Green: For me, it used to be I would tell them what the market values were, and I’d say “Okay, here’s what things are…”, kind of do the math for them essentially… They would hear it, and it would work sometimes. What I’m doing very differently now is I went from telling to showing, so instead of telling them, I’ll literally say “Let’s talk about the numbers a little bit. Let’s look at some properties. You know the neighborhood, Joe. I’d love to get a little bit of feedback on what your beliefs are, the values, and how these are comparable to you.” So I start with like “Hey, 123 Main Street – are you familiar with that property?” and they’ll literally say “Yeah, I know that one.” “Is that one pretty similar to yours?” and they’ll be like “Yeah, it’s just like mine.” I’m like “Great. Well, that sold for about 110k.” And I’m showing them as-is comps, because essentially, most people just wanna know they got a fair deal. When they give you a number, it’s just really not based in any factual thing; it’s tax assessments, what a friend told them… It’s no real facts there. But they don’t wanna take and go from that belief to another belief without facts and proof… So I now get them engaged and I really work on getting buy-in from them.

So buy-in and a couple of things that are really important… Number one is buy-in on what the as-is value of the property is based on other properties that are similar to theirs, and I show them the properties, I get their feedback, and I really lead them to telling me “Yeah, that’s just like mine. Well, that only went for 110k… I felt that would have been more.” And then I show them two more… Now I have the buy-in. I now ask them at the end, before we move on, “Is there anything different about that, or do those houses seem pretty consistent with yours as far as the value and condition and everything?” They’re like “Yeah, man. It’s pretty consistent.” Then we’ve got buy-in on what we would call the as-is value.

The next thing is I show them the renovation costs, because I wanna be transparent and show them what I’m gonna put into it… And I show them “Look, here’s my costs, here’s what I’m doing. Do you agree with about 50k? Does that sound about right to you?” If they say yes, we move on. If they say no, I literally have a line item budget where I can start walking them through and then saying “Okay, let’s walk through this a little bit, and just give me some feedback on what I might be overdoing, or just not doing correctly.” And by the time I walk them through the list, they’re usually completely bought it, because most of the time the reason they thought it was 30k instead of 50k is they just weren’t considering a lot of the things that were gonna be done. This happens to a lot of renovators too, including me, by the way – we’re just not detailed enough and we miss a lot of things.

So once we get buy-in on that, on what the house is worth and how much I’m gonna put into it, I literally have a computer, I pull a deal analyzer out, the standard one – we all have our own deal analyzer, a little tool that works – and I just show them the math. I’m like “Look, I’m making money; obviously, you know why I’m here. I’m not gonna try to hide that. I don’t make a lot. I make a small amount, because I do a lot of value… And here’s what I’m making, by the way. If you were doing an investment like this, Joe, you’d wanna make about that, wouldn’t you?” And I get 100% yes on that, every single time… So now I’ve gotten buy-in that it’s okay for me to make money, so at this point it’s really been working well…

Now, this is a process, by the way, but when I do this, 100% — I won’t get yes’es every time, because that’s impossible, and no one can create that, but what I get is I get a lot more people who are bought in, and even if it’s a no and they just need more, or for whatever reason they’re just not gonna take this now, I always get the “Hey, I see the numbers, I really appreciate you sharing those with me. We just need more.” And now we can start a dialogue around numbers, math, and how I might be able to help.

If they’re at 130k and I’m at 100k, it might be “Hey, listen, if you really need 130k, I’d be willing to put it under contract and present it to my investors, and see if I can find one willing to pay 130k.” This is usually how I back into a wholesale, but it’s very transparent and honest. It’s not “Hey, I’m gonna buy it”, and then lie to them, and come back later, and fight with them… This way I’m leaving the door open to come back later and have a conversation. They’re usually very willing to do that, as long as they get their 130k.

And then 30 days later, if I couldn’t find someone to buy it for that number – because there’s a lot of people that have different investment criteria than me. So I might find someone willing to pay 135k for it. If I do, I’m just gonna sell it and make 5k, call it a day. I did a great service for them, got them a great number, makes me feel good… Great way of doing business, in my opinion.

If however everyone’s coming in at 110k and I can’t get anyone above the number or closer to the number, I’ve left the door open to come back and have a conversation. “Hey, I got all my investors through… Here’s where they’re coming out with.” 30 days later it’s usually a very different story, because now they know that I’ve went out and worked hard for them, that I’ve put a lot of effort in getting that number for them, and it just isn’t gonna happen.

This is what I call staying in the inner circle, because a lot of times we make offers, it doesn’t work out, we just send them out to the world… We know a wholesaler is gonna put them under contract, or an agent is gonna list it for them… My belief is stay in the inner circle with them, so that way if 30 days later they are gonna take a little bit less, I wanna be the guy there. So it does require a little bit more work, but I get a lot of deals done because of it.

Joe Fairless: And how do you stay in the inner circle?

Michael Green: I stay in the inner circle by either getting it for the price that makes sense for me, or tying it up for a price that’s higher, but being very upfront and honest that I’m only gonna be presenting it to investors to see if I can get them that higher number. And they’re usually more than willing to do that, because it’s no cost to them, there’s no risk to them. It literally is just me going out, seeing if I can get another investor to pay more.

Joe Fairless: You go into the conversation very prepared then…

Michael Green: Yes.

Joe Fairless: And the conversation you just mentioned – and educate me on if it’s one conversation or many… First off, is it one conversation or is it usually many conversations?

Michael Green: We’re getting into a lot like deep stuff, obviously…

Joe Fairless: I’m talking about when you present to them the comps and the renovation cost, and you show them the math. That part. Is that a phone call, or is that multiple conversations, phone calls and in-person?

Michael Green: Two ways to decide that – I have a way of rating the prospect. The prospect is anywhere from one star to five stars. If they’re four or five-star prospects, they usually have a sense of urgency. So if they have a sense of urgency, I’m gonna go there prepared to present to them and try to close the deal. We usually book three hours for that appointment. I’ll come there prepared with comps, prepared with a renovation budget that I can do on my computer, right in front of them, and a deal analyzer I can pop up, and I can do it all in real-time right there. In ten minutes or so I can run these numbers.

I come there prepared to do business, because I know if I don’t, someone else might get them under contract, because they’re highly motivated.

If they’re a one to three-star prospect, then the timing would be incorrect to present to them. They might need a few weeks to make a decision. Then I would intentionally stall it out a little bit, before I presented the numbers to them.

So I would break it into a two-part series, where I go and build rapport, spend time, look at the house, and then schedule a second appointment, and I would be very slow about it if I knew it needed to be slow. “Hey, how about we talk in 7 to 10 days. You need about two weeks anyhow to get this and this together. We can meet then and I’ll present all the numbers to you and make you an offer.” I’m doing that intentionally, because I don’t wanna present now and then they just sit on the offer for two weeks, and then give the whole world an opportunity to just one-up my offer, and potentially lose that offer. So that’s usually how I do it… It’s depending on how hot the prospect is.

Joe Fairless: Last question and then I’ll ask you the question I ask everyone on the show – how do you determine the difference between a three and a four-star when you rate the person?

Michael Green: How I rate people is if somebody is willing to talk to me on the phone and share information, that’s a star. If somebody is willing to be friendly and conversational, that’s a star for me. If they’re selling their house in the next 30 to 90 days, that’s a star. It’s a really big star, by the way. If they know what they want, it’s pretty big to me, meaning they know they’re gonna sell their house 100%, and there’s no plan B. “We’re not gonna potentially stay if we can’t get a number. I am selling this house, I just wanna get the best number for it.”

And then the last piece is if I know that they need me and they would like me to help them. So if they’re really “Mike, we’d like to have an offer from you.” If all five of those things happen, that’s a five-star. If you start taking a couple of these things off and only got two or three our of five, then that’s a three-star. When we start to get to four out of five, you really have a hot prospect, someone who’s really checking a lot of the boxes. I generally just try to get in front of those people. I don’t qualify them like crazy on the phone. If they’re only hitting about one or two stars, I dig deeper and I try to get those stars up. If someone they don’t get up, then that’s gonna be a really bad use of my time, to spend three hours with that person.

Joe Fairless: What’s your best real estate investing advice ever?

Michael Green: Best advice ever is just take everything to the next level. When it comes to doing sales and negotiation, and really trying to get deals done, we often are just minimizing things instead of maximizing. So let’s take as much time… Treat it like you can make 30k-40k on this deal if you renovate it. A lot of times we go out and we’re treating it as if it’s just an appointment for an hour, but it really represents the potential to make 30k-40k, so treat it as that.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Michael Green: Best ever book is Start With No, Jim Camp. I’m loving that book, I’m reading it for the second time now. It states and says that all of us are so afraid of getting rejected and getting a no that it’s really important to just go ahead and start with no. A lot of people will qualify and come back. So it’s pretty different than the way I believed, but when I was reading it, it made a lot of sense, and it’s been really impactful to my business.

Joe Fairless: A mistake you’ve made on a transaction.

Michael Green: A mistake I’ve made on a transaction – probably my biggest loss I’ve ever taken in flipping was a 55k loss. I bought a house with well and septic, and I got a very loose opinion that the well and septic was good; come to find out it was not good. And not only did it cost — normally, it’s about 20k-30k, but we ran in a lot of problems with it and it ended up being about a 50k-60k problem. So really doing more due diligence with things that are out of your control, like well and septic.

Joe Fairless: What was the role for the person you asked about it, who ended up not being right?

Michael Green: It was actually a well and septic guy, and he came out and said “Hey, it’s all good. You need like 5k in repairs.” So we were like “Cool, 5k. No big deal.” Well, we go to pull the permits and the county disagrees and says “No, you need to do this… And not only it’s not Perc-ing, so you have to go from a normal septic system to a holding tank”, which really decreases your value, because somebody asks to pay money to pump it out every couple months, and it’s just very undesirable. So that was number one.

Number two part of that was the well ended up not yielding like he thought, and we had to draw a hole for a new well. That hole didn’t hit water, so we had to drill a second hole at 7k. Five holes total, it ended up being 28k later… So I now try not to buy well and septic, because it’s not needed where I’m at… But if I do, I make sure that I pull permits and everything before I settle, just to make sure I know what I’m doing.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] What’s the best ever deal you’ve done?

Michael Green: The best ever deal I did was about nine months ago. I bought a house about a mile from DC. We’re very close to DC and Maryland. It was in a really rough neighborhood; I was definitely not sure about this one. Actually, in the middle of the renovation a guy just came and walked in the house, and locked himself in the bathroom and started smoking crack. My guys called me and said “What do I do?” and I’m like “I don’t know. Hopefully he’ll leave. If he didn’t leave in 20 minutes, call the police.” He did eventually leave, and I was just completely weirded out by this house, thinking “What did we get into?” I come to find out a big lesson for me was this was a very desirable neighborhood, because it was on the Maryland side of DC, and DC is highly expensive… This was still a very affordable place, so we ended up selling this house for 289k list price, and we got about 15 offers, so we got up to almost 60k over list. So it ended being about 105k net profit after my hard money fees and all that… In a house where someone walked in and smoked crack in the bathroom, so who would have guessed…?

So yes, it was a bad neighborhood, but it was a highly desirable bad neighborhood, apparently…

Joe Fairless: It might have been a good luck charm. Maybe take him to all the houses to christen them before you flip them.

Michael Green: I have a different perspective on it now, for sure.

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever way you like to give back to the community?

Michael Green: Best way I love to give back is last year I did an emotional intelligence training at this place called ChoiceCenter, and it’s been really big. I like to give back to people in our industry. Everything we do is about giving back, and for me it’s been — anyone who reaches out and says they wanna have lunch, they wanna do a quick call with me, I literally jump on the phone. I make time every week for the last year just to talk to people that are aspiring to get into the business, struggle in the business… And it’s just been a lot of fun doing that. I’m very connected to the community, and it’s just been a great way for me to give back.

Joe Fairless: How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?

Michael Green: You can reach me at the TheFlipFactor.net, that’s my website.

Joe Fairless: Well, then I will make sure that is in the show notes. Michael, thank you for being on the show and discussing with us how to find private sellers, and also how to negotiate with them, and how to close more deals by building rapport, having true empathy… You said at the very end of our conversation that you took a class or a course on emotional intelligence training… I’m gonna look that up. You said Choice Center? Being a good listener, and then knowing how to combine that with business, and how you’re closing twice as many leads when you do visit with them through those techniques… And it’s almost not giving them justice when I call them techniques, because really it’s just an approach; it’s just how you interact with people. I feel like technique makes it sound gimmicky, which it’s not, and I appreciate you sharing your process. It was very valuable information, especially for those who are doing wholesaling and fixing and flipping… But even those who are doing apartment investing and bringing in private capital to deals, this is certainly some things to take away.

Thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you again soon.