6-19.htm
--- to the beginninginfoshop.org
(2x): on pacifism (+5) ---------
a modest proposal: It's time to move beyond anarchism's cultural / social
ghetto with 32 responses ----------
outerbongolia.org An Input from Emotion to Biological Energetics?
-------- "The
teaching of the whispered lineage is the Dakini's breath" ---------
187104
Let us make war on the phrase "violence doesn't solve anything."

Pacifism
posted by insurrection on Monday June 17 2002 @ 07:04PM
PDT ----- -----There is a lot of confusion among self-proclaimed pacifists
and many times anarchists have to defend themselves from pacifsts. This
problem needs to be cleared up. To start off we'll use some definitions.
Pacifism - a doctrine which advocates abolition of war; anti-militarism
war - armed conflict between two (groups of) states If we are to agree
on these definitions then we have two possible means to the ends of abolishing
war. Either the abolition of the state, or a worldwide community of states
which demilitarize and exist in harmony. It should be obvious which choice
is a pipedream, but unfortunately people still believe a utopian state
is possible, and these people need to be enlightened. The dawn of civilization,
the state; ever revered by the minority and reviled by the majority. Feud
settlements (d)evolved into wars and war (d)evolved into total war. No
history is needed here as the facts are well documented. From the sword
to the machine gun, from the atomic bomb to economic sanctions, tactics
have changed but there is no denying the increasing number of war torn
corpses. It is unlikely that this is a coincidence, and i encourage anyone
to successfully challenge this idea. The state, and the institutions which
uphold it, are forever involved in war. The countless genocides of the
last 500 years, and the industrial complex which has led this earth to
the brink of total collapse. To deny the abolition of the state is to deny
the abolition of war, and therefore the failure of pacifism. It is likely
that the only route towards a pacifist society would be to implement the
three main tools of anarchism. 1)Massive direct action and refusal of participation
2)Violent revolution 3)the creation of Intentional communities These tools
must be used relentlessly and the adherents of each tactic uncompromisingly
solid with those who use the other tactics. A revolution is impossible
without the use of all three tools. We must hurry to find the right mixture
and balance of tools. Care to join us? Insurrection PO Box 25103 Moncton
NB Canada E1C 9M9 < High Court Upholds Police Power on Bus Searches
| Eugene: Bastille Day Event > ----- -----Kame504 writes on Monday June
17 2002 @ 07:55PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] Is this a revival of that old
magazine insurrection? Just curious, cause the articles from that which
I have read were pretty good. ----- -----anarcho-pacifists writes on Tuesday
June 18 2002 @ 01:04AM PDT: [ reply | parent ] True pacifists are also
anarchists. Anarcho-pacifist is redunant. So-called "pacifists" who aren't
anarchists are hypocrites and not really pacifists. The state is the most
violent organisation in human history, anyone who's consistantly anti-violence
opposes it. ----- -----giuseppe writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 08:09AM
PDT: [ reply | parent ] just keep repeating that mantra of yours and eventually
all others will start to believe it as much as you do. anarchists who use
the sort of moralistic assertions that are showcased in the last post are
the biggest obstacles to the increased relevance of anarchist ideas "outside
the ghetto." ----- -----RS@ writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 07:39PM PDT:
[ reply | parent ] umm...anarcho-pacifists' comment isn't a mantra, just
common sense. If all States require [arbitrary, un-natural] violence to
control their subjects and their neighbors [I challenge you to find one
that doesn't], then how can a pacifist support one? If simple chains of
logic are beyond the public lying "outside the ghetto" {as if there was
one anarchist subculture), then perhaps we should turn to nonsensical,
religious mantras. ----- -----giuseppe writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @
10:50PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] if it's "common sense" then how come it's
a minority position within the anarchist scene, which is itself a minority
among human beings? saying something is "common sense" is just another
way of saying that you're incapable of arguing for it. if all states *required*
violence to control their populations, then there wouldn't be as many states
around perhaps. mostly the usa (as a good example) uses more subtle methods
of coercion to maintain itself, like economic incentives (including impoverishing
workers to keep them nervous about losing their crappy jobs), a culture
of obedience, etc. raw coercion is mostly unnecessary--especially in the
so-called democracies. pacifists mostly support the existence of the state
by voluntarily entering into the court/prison system to challenge immoral
laws. or do i have a naive understanding of what pacifism is? i used to
be one, so i think i can speak from some experience. i never met a committed
pacifist who came from a working class background--only middle and upper
class people; that also says something about the philosophy. not to mention
that non-white people who haven't been cowed by xtian bullshit don't gravitate
toward pacifism either. ----------------------------

A
Modest Proposal PB Floyd It's time to move beyond anarchism's cultural
/ social ghetto In the wake of the emergence of the
anti-globalization movement, and following increasing understanding of
the environmental damage caused by capitalist economics, a thriving new
anti-capitalism movement is coming of age across the globe. Unlike earlier
Marxist critiques of capitalism, the new anti-capitalist movement favors
direct, participatory democracy applied to both political and economic
matters. Blossoming more than 10 years after the end of the cold war, the
new anti-capitalists can no longer be dismissed as Stalinist relics. Anti-capitalist
theory and struggle is popping up in the developing world and the first
world simultaneously. Both in the United States and elsewhere, the formerly
tiny anarchist community is positioned at the center of anti-capitalist
activities. In this context, looking at what passes for the anarchist “scene”
as we’ve known it in the US is pretty discouraging. Even despite some recent
improvements, it is overwhelmingly youth oriented, mostly white, and seems
to celebrate and intentionally seek marginalization. For all the handwringing
about the lack of racial diversity in anarchist circles, the lack of class,
age and cultural diversity goes almost unnoticed, but is equally problematic.
Sadly, a lot of the lack of diversity is self-inflicted. Anarchist politics
are tied much too closely with counter-cultural tendencies. Walk into an
anarchist convergence space and the feeling of exclusivity is palpable.
There has been a lot of discussion of doing “outreach” to the community,
but little action that I’ve actually seen aside from wheatpasting and late-night
sticker or graffiti campaigns. If you tallied up the number of hours spent
by anarchists on various projects, you’d have to conclude that we’re more
interested in having puppets in the movement than actual live, human beings.
Read more Link: http://slingshot.tao.ca/displaybi.php?0075015 < The
Ultimate Act of Solidarity | Neighbors Protest Penn Police Targeting Black
Youth > ----- -----anarchocommunist writes on Monday June 17 2002 @ 10:58PM
PDT: [ reply | parent ] I think PB Floyd is heading in the right direction
here. I wish he had better recommendations than "outreach week" which I
can just envision as one embarrassing disaster after another. However,
his motivations seem to be in the right place. I agree that anarchists
need to take themselves more seriously. And I also think we need to critically
examine the "white middle-class" myths of anarchist and especially libertarian
communist anti-capitalism. Anarchopunk has its origins in white ghettos
of London and other parts of England. In the U.S., the heavy metal varieties
of anarchopunk have its origins in white "ghettos" of the US across the
great industrial wasteland that was once the agriculture and steel belt.
These kids may be white but they have real class issues that many east/west-coast
middle class punks dont relate to. Also in the US, the urban history of
punk involves a lot of Latino and other integrated communities. In addition,
most people today seem to be equally a part of hip-hop and punk "scenes"
as the corporate influences on both cause you to seek out diversity in
other places besides your traditional inbred scene. These tendencies should
be publicized and focused on more. We should acknowledge that appropriating
money from the upper class and redirecting it into revolutionary organizations
is a good thing. Obviously our healthy disrespect for non-profits and being
slaves to grants should remain intact. But people with resources should
not squander them or reject them to be "poor in solidarity" ... how many
college educated bums are there in anarchism of today? I think what needs
to happen is that middle-class kids who are involved in anarchism, punk
and hiphop scenes need to take their own criticisms seriously. How many
punk songs come out these days with kids whining about their privilege?
No one wants to hear that shit. These kids should help build infrastructure
rather than being "content creators" ... their predominance creates barriers
to access rather than increasing it. This is just a suggested example of
what can be done. In addition, I think a pro-organization slant or at least
a nod towards professionalism is required. We need to act like we are serious
and reliable. We should also respect the seriousness of what we are talking
about. Clownish dancing against genocide seems pretty silly. I could go
on and on. I really appreciate that PB Floyd has written a piece that asks
us to focus on strategy and tactics. ----- -----non-sectarianism? writes
on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 01:50PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] I think it would
be a major step for anarchists to deal with one another, and everyone else
for that matter, more respectfully and with less hostility and sectarianism.
That is not to say to stop being critical, but to learn to be critical
in a way that is not alienating. I think anarchist sectarianism is presently
a big obstacle to anarchism, in most circles of anarchism. ----- -----Anon
E Moose writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 04:45AM PDT: [ reply | parent
] I think all of us recognize the need to move beyond the "white punk ghetto."
In some areas, this isn't a problem, but in many places it is. We all recognize
that but we just can't figure out wtf really works. All I can think is
our lifestyle choices scare people away. They may just see us as a subculture
that they aren't interested in becoming a part of, rather than seeing what
we are doing and why we are doing and fighting for what we are. "Outreach"
is a nice idea, but what seems to happen is you get a few people outside
of the typical types who become interested, but since they are so few and
alone, they get frustrated, fear they are the subculture's tokens, etc.
and then they end up leaving too. And going into their communities and
working in there leaves the impression you don't belong and are mainly
interested in converting people. Perhaps some "professionalism" would help.
Perhaps it's our strict fun-time approach to everything that makes us appear
more as a subculture to outsiders, not just punk music. Also sometimes
we may take crimethinc strategies a bit too seriously. Someone who is clearly
at least middle-class telling other people who barely have enough money
to purchase enough food to live every week that picking thrown-out/rotten
food out of dumpsters is a revolutionary way of feeding yourself probably
means nothing to them. Are things like that a serious long-term strategy?
What if we all were picking garbage out of the dumpsters, the resources
there are limited. They don't teach us anything about how to live without
capitalism, we just become dependent on living off of its excesses. -----
-----anarchocommunist writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 03:19PM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] Dumpster diving fits into what Chuck calls "hobo culture," and
this does appeal to certain personalities throughout classes. However,
it should be recognized as a tactic of this hobo culture, and not be viewed
as a revolutionary "dual power" method of providing the material needs
that capitalism does not (or provides at a high emotional, physical cost).
The problem I see is the dismissive and arrogant attitude of crimethinc'ers
who insist that this lifestyle choice is something everyone should do.
Obviously most normal families and individuals will not do this as an option.
What would be interesting, though, is for these crimethinc dumpster experts
to form an army of skilled dumpster divers, appropriate materials from
dumpsters, make them worthwhile (clean them up, fix them, etc) and then
give them away in communities that have real needs (and dont have the time
to learn dumpster diving or go out and do it all day). It would be like
anarchist Robin Hood, without the armed robbery part. ----- -----Rob_Augman
writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 07:46AM PDT: [ reply | parent ] To shed
some light on Radical Rush, it's a week-long outreach "event." We coordinate
as many progressive groups (in Gainesville) that we can to commit to tabling
on the University of Florida for a whole week straight. This originated
in reaction to the Fraternity/Sorority rush week where they try to get
new recruits for their clubs. Well, in ways we're trying to do the same
thing - trying to get the word out about our organizations and our causes.
So, we put together a week of tabling by 20 or more progressive political
organizations located at a very heavily foot trafficed area on campus.
In the evening we hold events about our causes and organizations. On the
weekedn we plan parties, music shows, and an open house at our infoshop.
This lets students know that they have choices beyond the fraternity lifestyle
- that they can get involved in politics and a progressive movement. Check
out the Civic Media Center (our infoshop) website at www.civicmediacenter.org
I'm not sure if we have more info on Radical Rush there or not though.
If you want more info, or want to organize a Radical Rush in your area
and want to ask question, please get in touch with me (Rob Augman) at mvcot@hotmail.com
or the CMC at sheila@civicmediacenter.org Cheers! ----- -----giuseppe writes
on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 08:06AM PDT: [ reply | parent ] let's hear it
for the onward crowd organizing the most radical revolutionary subject
yet--college students! the revolution is right around the corner! hey all
you sorry-ass people who actually work for a living: the student-led cadre
of progressive revolutionaries is here to save you! quit your stupid lives
of wage slavery and enroll in a university, the hotbed of radical social
change! college-age people experiment with all sorts of strange activities,
being away from home for most likely the first time; radical politics is
just another youth hobby for most. coupled with the heady arrogance of
the know-it-all attitudes of post-adolescent freedom, this is probably
the most alienating phenomenon for "normal" folks. talk about a fucking
ghetto! if i didn't already know augman was part of onward, i'd think that
his post was a clever parody. as it is, it's an unintentional self-parody.
----- -----too many puppets writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 08:26AM PDT:
[ reply | parent ] This discussion is long overdue, and though I used to
tend to have the reactionary view of wanting to cut off all sub-cultural
associations with the politics of anarchism, it's good to remember how
crucial social and cultural life are in revolutionary movements. This social
and cultural life has to reflect the common interests of the people we
are trying to reach, however,not the heavily anti-social aspects of a subculture
like punk rock. We are socially oriented, remember, not misanthropic "secessionists"(which
is a political category recently heard from the train-hopping crowd). A
good example of what we'd want, albeit a really old one, is in Chicago
in the 1880s. There the average anarchist was 37 years old, married with
two kids, an immigrant and was a skilled or unskilled laborer. (oh yeah,
and male) Anarchists organized in their own groups affiliated with the
IWPA at the time, rented halls in new neighborhoods and would set up agitational
talks in order to form new local clubs. In this way over 25 clubs spanned
almost every immigrant community in the city, representing half a dozen
different language newspapers as well. Clubs'activities focused around
rotating tours of speakers, and the debates that would follow, but clubs
had strong ties with other immigrant societies like gymnastics (!) clubs,
singing, and theatrical groups. The movement also had libraries, schools
for their children, and selfdefense cadres. We often forget, in our efforts
to emulate these past movements, that its success comes from the fact of
its absolute rootedness in the working class (which was not monolithic).
We are far from that these days. The Communists, like Workers World, etc,
in the US have a better footing in working class and oppressed communities
than the anarchists do, and I think (discarding their opportunistic approach)
their seriousness and level of commitment is something to emulate. -----
-----Reverend Chuck0 writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 10:17AM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] I see nothing that the communists and Workers World does that
is worthy of emulating. Sure, they are good at exploiting community activists
and tokenizing people of color, but this is something that we should avoid.
I fail to see how the anarchist movement is not serious or lacking in commitment.
Rob, for example, has shown his seriousness and commitment by publishing
Onward with activists in Florida. The source of the above article, Slingshot,
has been publishing a community newspaper for years, and their popular
organizers are being used by serious activists all over the place. And
I've kept this website project going for over 7 years. Frankly, I think
we need more puppets and a better sense of humor! ----- -----anarchocommunist
writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 01:25PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] Chuck,
if you do not see the successful work that communists are doing, then you
aren't paying enough attention. It is more than "tokenizing" ethnic groups.
In NYC, SF, LA, communist orgs are at the forefront of providing police
brutality victim support (through grief counseling, as well as agitation
for compensation, etc), organizing in a bottom-up way in ghettos and predominantly
non-white communities, etc. Anarchists could do the same thing, but in
my experience the chronic plague of non-organization prevents us from having
the reliability to pull that stuff off. It is one thing to ignore the grieving
family of someone who was murdered by the police; it is quite another thing
to work with them and fail to come through. Some of the things the communists
do that I don't know if anarchists are prepared to do: 1) Dont denounce
every normal person for their beliefs. Not everyone is going to see your
point of view about veganism, for instance. Don't attack people for eating
hot dogs. 2) Form organizations which are accountable, i.e. they have a
telephone number, you can contact them, etc. 3) Work in a rational, sane
manner with other political groups that are out there. If an RCP person
shows up at a planning meeting, dont feel compelled to launch into a tirade
about massacres. In my experience on the west coast, which is different
than other parts of the country where I have done anarchist organizing,
the communists are far more advanced at being an asset to the community.
Many times, the anarchopunk kids are hurting the community, at odds with
the community, not helping it. This is not to glorify the communists. But
to ignorantly dismiss them as "doing nothing right" is ignoring a lot of
their progress. Many communist groups are more non-hierarchal than anarchist
groups I know, just because they have a formalized process so everyone
knows where they stand, and a social group cabal is not secretly controlling
things. ----- -----redsonja writes on Wednesday June 19 2002 @ 12:00AM
PDT: [ reply | parent ] kudos anarchocommie! Anarchists, as much as we
hate to admit it or don't even realize, have gained a reputation of being
flakey and unreliable. Err, and i was trying to be funny about the "too
many puppets" thing - there was a really bad song once... ----- -----Persepolis
writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 10:02AM PDT: [ reply | parent ] The 1880s
Chicago organizing tactics seemed to work well. Was it not direct government
oppression and even deportations that ending it? But if we, as middle class
young anarchists, try to organize in working class neighboorhoods we would
be laughed at and told to leave them alone. Is it realistic to expect the
current anarchist crowd to bridge that gap? The organizing in Chicago's
working class immigrant neighboorhoods was done by working class immigrants
not crusty punks turned organizers. So, how can we do it? It seems we are
so far away from that. Any suggestions? ----- -----anarchocommunist writes
on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 01:28PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] "But if we, as
middle class young anarchists, try to organize in working class neighboorhoods
we would be laughed at and told to leave them alone" This is an example
of what I mean by a middle-class person projecting themselves across the
entire anarchist movement. Persepolis, not everyone is middle-class in
the anarchist movement, especially many of the older school anarchopunk
kids. We are from lower-class and working-class backgrounds, our families
live there, we live there, all our closest friends live there, and it is
stupid to lump us together with middle-class college activists. If you
do not see this, perhaps you are doing too much "leading" and not enough
infrastructure building. ----- -----Reverend Chuck0 writes on Tuesday June
18 2002 @ 10:25AM PDT: [ reply | parent ] My suggestion would be to stop
using the punk movement as the convenient whipping boy for the anarchist
movement's demographics, which HAVE gotten more diverse in recent years.
It would be worth it to talk about the methods and tactics that work, rather
than bellyaching about the punk movement, which has been very instrumental
in keeping the anarchist spirit alive in North America. The punk movement
has radicalized tens of thousands of young people and we should never spit
at it for that. It's good to see a discussion here about the radicalism
in immigrant communities during the late 19th and early 20th centuries
in the U.S. There are many lessons that can be learned from radicalism
during that time, but the current situation is much different. The latest
group of immigrants is pretty political, but in a different sense. Also,
most of America is suburban, so the forms of cultural resistance will naturally
come from suburban culture like punk rock. I've always wondered why political
punks don't make mroe of an effort to work with hip hop artists. It seems
that mainstream white kids, who are crazy about rap and hip hop, have more
of a connection with the black community than political punks. Perhaps
this isn't the situation with political punks, since the punk movement
isn't the same all over. I won't jump to any conclusions until I hear more...
----- -----hpwombat writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 12:53PM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] I think a good question to ask would be has capitalism changed
so much to a degree in america that we should expect less activity than
in the 19th century. Immigrants from Europe during this time composed the
anarchist movement. Did the specticle take away our ability to educate
and organize a consistant and strong anarchist movement...and/or does racial
division play a larger part, being that the new immigrants are no longer
European dominated? Do drugs, lack of freetime, the Global division of
wealth, or other factors make organizing in America so different from organizing
in Argentina or Chiapas? Bakunin spread anarchism through the latin countries
via secret societies...have we been ignoring this important feature in
the spread of anarchism as well? Perhaps we must do stronger actions to
make secret societies a necessity to then further grow because of state
clampdown. Such strategies provoke the state and cause lots of harm in
the short term, and perhaps could cause anarchism to be discredited rather
than capitalism, concidering the power of the specticle vs. the islamic
fundlementalists. attempts at union formation will get absorbed into State-legitimatized
federations such as the AFL-CIO because of conflicts with short term interests.
Short term interests also cause cooperatives to change motives from ethical
and more democratic, to less democratic and profit oriented. Alternative
currencies often must compromise to gain a wide enough acceptance to be
useful if not presented with crisis problems, such as that in Argentina.
Maybe the problem isn't with the method of strategy, but our lack of conviction?
I'm just rambling for ideas anyways... ----- -----writes on Tuesday June
18 2002 @ 02:31PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] How about we form Labor/student
federations instead of some self serving, anarchists-only, elitist organization
----- -----Persepolis writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 12:27PM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] I agree with Chuck0. The anarchist movement is finally becoming
more diverse. The recent NAAG is a good example. Even though racial diversity
was severly lacking the spread of different people was good: sure there
were crusty punk kids, but there were also people from all across the spectrum
of ages and lifestyles. As much as it may seem hopeless, even to me, for
punk kids to try to talk with regular working people there are issues that
can help start a discussion. A friend of my was telling me a story about
talking to some people in his neighborhood about how bad the cops were.
He was able to take that conversation into a discussion of how a neighborhood
copwatch would help. And how they, the people in the neighborhood, could
organize it themselves. It may seem like a little thing but it is still
an old working class punk kid talking to real working class people about
organizing to make there lives better. ----- -----anarchocommunist writes
on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 01:40PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] "As much as it
may seem hopeless, even to me, for punk kids to try to talk with regular
working people there are issues that can help start a discussion" Not to
harp on Persepolis, but this attitude is really frustrating. Why are "punk
kids" not "regular working people"? In the punk community I grew up in,
not everyone dressed like freaks and glamorized dumpster diving. Most of
us came from blue collar families (the lucky ones) and the unlucky ones
came from families where crime and drugs put food on the table. In my immediate
close circle of friends, one works at a factory, one is trying to get a
union job but cant so he works at a warehouse in the meantime, one is trying
hard to become a more skilled car mechanic, and many others are trying
hard to break into the inner circle of construction jobs that you can actually
make a living on. This is not working class? College was never an option
for these people, for any number of reasons. It is the hegemony of rich
kids who come into punk which has always provided a tension in the "scene."
In the last five years, with the help of corporate sponsorship of punk,
this hegemony has come full circle to the point where no one even associates
punk with working class kids, and most of those older punks are jaded,
hate the scene, and are largely non-political as a result. Quit telling
us we are like you! This goes far beyond just punk, as well. You can look
at the history of the Class War Federation in the UK to see why there was
once a movement where rich kids were out of decision-making positions.
It is the very tendencies of the middle class to drench themselves in privilege
and guilt and to push that on everyone else. My advice to people who think
they come from privileged, middle-class backgrounds: quit "being" the movement.
Dont reject your privilege. Use it to support the good work of people without
resources. Dont belittle people for eating meat or listening to rap/metal
or saying a word you dont think is politically correct. The other day I
had some Stanford graduate over at my house and this person could not stop
talking about how "privileged we are all," in comparison to "white trash
families." This person never once considered that the background of other
people in the room did not coincide with their background. And this person
is looking for an "anarchist group with money" to pay for their ticket
to go on some NGO-affiliated mission to some third world country. I don't
think we should ever forget the parasitism of the upper class on working
class movements. Remembering this would go a long way to solving the problems
that we are talking about here. ----- -----Reverend Chuck0 writes on Tuesday
June 18 2002 @ 01:58PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] Thanks, Persepolis. I wasn't
able to make it to the NAAG conference, but it's good to hear that a conference
in Kansas can provide evidence of a diversifying movement. I also saw signs
of this during my trip to San Francisco in March. I'm from the rich, white
suburbs of Kansas City, so I hope that NAAG will have some kind of lasting
influence on activism in that area. anarchocommunist makes some excellent
points here in his response. Many punk rockers are from the working class.
Not all of them are, but if you look back over the past 25 years, you'll
see that punk is rooted in the working and middle classes. Perhaps punk
is the hobo culture of the late 20th century? ----- -----Persepolis writes
on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 12:36PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] Oh and I like
the puppets too. Crazyfun things like that are great! Because if our revolution
cant be crazyfun and can only be serious all the time its not worth anything
at all. ----- -----Necrotic State writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 01:35PM
PDT: [ reply | parent ] Several things strike me about this conversation.
One, I tend to agree with ChuckO about punk; it has done a lot to make
our current movement possible, and its origins are not as middle class
as many people would like think. It's also one of the only deliberately
political styles of music. There's political hip-hop, but it's not really
the same - punk and politics, especially anarchy, have been together from
the beginning. Yeah, it can be alienating to people, too, and that's something
we need to pay careful attention to. This leads me to another point. I
see too much hand-wringing and excuse making by middle class kids about
all the reasons they can't get involved. People are nervous about going
into communities they're not from, which is good - we should be critical
about this. And I agree about the point about organizing college kids (we've
deliberately tried to avoid this in PAC and have remained a group that
is not student-based because of it). But I also want people to be active.
Middle class and upper class anarchists shouldn't be in the lead of working
class struggles, but that doesn't mean they can't play supportive roles
that challenge their privilege and socialization. In fact, I think that's
exactly what they should be doing. If you don't feel comfortable starting
your own project, I'm sure there's something going on in your community
that you can get involved with. As far as how to outreach to regular folks,
one idea we've been toying here in Phoenix is setting up a regular booth
at the swap meet. Right now it's so damn hot here that it may wait a couple
months, but I think in general we need to experiment more with the places
we distribute information. We've fliered outside the county jail several
times and gotten very receptive responses. Of course, when we are in front
of the jail we talk about cops and jails - not the benefits of vegetarianism.
The issue is as important as the place and they should be in sync. But,
the best outreach is participating in real struggles. The copwatch suggestion
is a great one, and as many people probably know, one that I clearly support.
But there are lots of other projects out there that can bring together
large groups of people to learn new ideas. Anti-gentrification work, for
instance, can bring together a pretty broad spectrum of people that we
don't generally see at our meetings or benefit shows. Plus, the point is
not necessarily to brown our white anarchist meetings (although there's
nothing wrong with that), but rather to have many different anarchist groups
that represent a variety of cultural and racial makeups. Interestingly,
punk does this to a surprising degree (sometimes it seems like there's
more diversity within punk than within the anarchist movement). And, as
mentioned, so does hip-hop. We used to joke about forming an Anarcho-Funk
Federation here. In that sense, I support the anarcho-punk collectives
as much as I support the organizations of anarchists of color (well, maybe
a little less, since we already have a lot of anarcho-punks, but you get
my point). ----- -----Reverend Chuck0 writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @
02:03PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] I'd like to see more of a discussion in
the anarchist movement about white anarchists using some of their skin
privilege to do more Cop Watch activities. Some of us here in Washington,
DC are finding that we're doing Cop Watch more often. The police repression
of people of color has increased alot lately. There are more people being
questioned by police and more "jump outs." I'm told by one of our Cop Watch
activists that our interventions are welcome by the people being victimized
by the police. I need to learn more spanish so I can do more of this activism
in my own neighborhood. I've been thinking about getting spanish version
copies of the ACLU's "Know Your Rights" pamphlet and handing them out.
----- -----Kame504 writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 03:16PM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] FIY Chuck: the APOC website has spanish language stuff on it
and a card with rights on it. ----- -----dvbeihrfb writes on Tuesday June
18 2002 @ 01:52PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] Personal development of the activist
is key. The more integrity we have as people, the more people will have
respect for what we say. The more confidently (not arrogantly - there's
a difference) we carry ourselves, the more people will understand that
we're for real. Listening skills are essential too. In my experience, being
the person that people can have a conversation about a problem with their
relationship or their anxieties about some part of their life or their
pride for their child - that really makes a relationship strong. The more
people can relate to each other in an emotionally supportive way - the
stronger a community becomes - the stronger all the individuals become
and more complex forms of interacting and projects can occur. Basically,
honestly treating people as equals and acknowledging the validity of their
experience. ----- -----midweat anarchist writes on Tuesday June 18 2002
@ 02:00PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] I am really sorry about how many people
are convinced that anarchists need to "break out" of their "cultural ghetto."
The fact is, every dissident movement in history has begun with a tiny
minority of people, who would have always seemed like a "ghetto" to those
outside it. The real question for anarchists is not how to break out of
the "ghetto", but to break it open, i.e. to draw as many people as possible
into the orbit of anarchist ideas, politics, activities, and yes, even
culture. To do otherwise would inevitably lead to our having to "tone down"
our ideas, which would essentially be the equivelant of abandoning them.
----- -----Anon E Moose writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 02:10PM PDT: [
reply | parent ] I don't know if I sounded like I was belittling "punk"
myself, if I did, I didn't mean to. If it wasn't for that subculture and
scene, I wouldn't be talking about this and I probably wouldn't be using
this site. Due to its history and DIY organizing style, it is the only
scene that has a large range of politically minded groups. And even if
the bands people in the overall scene listen to aren't political, they
learn that they can do things themselves. However, In the last five years,
with the help of corporate sponsorship of punk, this hegemony has come
full circle to the point where no one even associates punk with working
class kids, and most of those older punks are jaded, hate the scene, and
are largely non-political as a result. there's that problem. Corporations
are fucking eating punk up and tearing it apart. Just 5 or so years ago
it was common among punk scene youth to be talking about DIY, "selling
out," signing to a major, etc. but in the past year or two, it seems like
that has evaporated. So many punk bands are on majors now and those bands
rarely talk about the tension between the independent music scene and the
corporate controlled music scene. And by throwing the songs in commercials
for products that rich yuppies and white teens and twenty somethings buy
is really worsening racial tensions. Punk wasn't music for rich, white
yuppie youth, but if you watched a lot of TV and didn't know any better,
you'd think it was. ----- -----ghandi writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @
02:15PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] I think fun is the key to all of this,
the ideal should be a society with less work, more openess and cooperation,
less hassles and destructive comptetition... everyone just chillin and
having a good time, working on whatever they like, etc... ----- -----writes
on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 05:38PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] I don't know
if anyone's reading down this far but... any anarchist group I've come
into contact w/ in the Eastern Seaboard (US) has the inward / holier than
thou / counter-culture stamp all over it. If I thought these folks had
horrible ideas, I would be glad -- but I think they have great ideas, so
it pisses me off to see them choose marginalization in any number of ways.
I think that's a relic of the counter-culture element -- if it ever became
common coin, we might as well commit suicide. I'm not saying that a counter/dropout/hobo
culture is necessarily horrible -- but when more than 90% of anarchist
belong to it, most folks look at anarchism as a scene which they just don't
want a part of, regardless of how much they might agree w/ the group's
ideas. Damn damn shame. ----- -----Reverend Chuck0 writes on Tuesday June
18 2002 @ 10:34PM PDT: [ reply | parent ] Huh? Who are you talking about?
What's wrong with counterculture that has political content? Resistance
culture is important to the struggle. Would you be critical in the same
way of immigrant radicals of a century ago who had their own counterculture?
----- -----redsonja writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 11:40PM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] Yes in fact I would be opposed to a marginalizing counter-culture
posed as anarchism, which did exist, although in a very different context:
they were called fadists at the time (free love proponents, nudism, etc)
and some more class oriented anarchists, Lucy Parsons, for one, couldn't
stand their politics. It strayed too far from the interests of the working
class in general, they argued. Its not the activities in themselves, for
people are perfectly free to persue their own activities, its when they
are mistaken for the actual politics. We are seeing cultural choices being
equated with a body of politics, this is the problem. ("You have a full
time job, what kind of anarchist are you?") The different context that
existed in the past was that these debates over individualism, lifestyle
choice, or "fadism" was *within* the working class movement. This also
gives us some idea that these don't arise out of middle class involvement,
as is sometimes charged. Enough wierdos come out of the working class to
be sure! Hey, in Brasil there are punks all over the place and people don't
bat an eye when they are involved in popular social struggles. People don't
care what you look like if you are actually on their side doing the work.
I expect liberals to think of the (especially white) working class as a
pariah in this country, but anarchists! Culture, entertainment, make life
worth living and are necessary to a rev'ary movment, but correct radical
culture isn't owned by the anarchists of today. The radical immigrant culture
of the 19th century had dances, plays, picnics, parades, AND could incorporate
the counter-cultural. But this sprung from larger working class culture.
Where to find this today is not as clear as a nice big beer hall, but neighborhoods
still have block parties, people go to the YWCA, nail salon, etc. -----
----- wild hedgehog writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 07:28PM PDT: [ reply
| parent ] I have a question: why is there such a dichotomy between so
called "lifestyle" anarchism and "political" anarchism? I mean, you never
hear anyone talk about "lifestyle socialists" or "lifestyle communists".
Why is it that this is something the anarchist movement worries about when
no one else does? I thought the anarchist movement was supposed to hetergeneous,
with everyone from primitivists to anarcho-syndicalists welcome at the
table. ----- -----Reverend Chuck0 writes on Tuesday June 18 2002 @ 10:32PM
PDT: [ reply | parent ] "Lifestyle anarchist" is a bugaboo invented by
anarchists who iwhs to smear their opponents in the anarchist movement
instead of engaging them in debate and dialogue. IMHO, this phrase was
the worst thing that Murray Bookchin ever gave to the anarchist movement.
It's an incredibly disruptive insult that has even been used by our enemies
against anarchists. ----- ----- Middle Class Revolutionary writes on Wednesday
June 19 2002 @ 01:52AM PDT: [ reply | parent ] My suggestion for middle
class anarchists or activists is to embrace your privilege. If Crimethinc
just called itself "MiddleClassthinc" we'd be making progress. As soon
as the middle class can understand its social and economic position and
define itself in relation to the working class on its own terms and then
come at the working class in a position of understanding and, to some extent,
be subordinant (because ultimately the working class is subordinant economically
to the middle class) to the interests of working class revolutionaries
we'd be making progress. The shame of the middle class revolutionary is
holding this movement back. The middle class is pretty large in this country
and, once its own alienations and privileges are exposed, can potentially
be revolutionary. We just need to work within our own classes initially
with a constant dialogue with the other class and then come together to
abolish capitalism.

Does
the Heart Become measureably Musical at the moment of Love? The heart does
in a sense become musical (phase coherent harmonic resonant) in a measureable
way, in response to human intention. We are tempted to postulate that coherent
emotion and even perhaps love, may be teachable and accessible with feedback
tools. We further postulate that onsetting coherence in heart resonance
will eventually be proven to be a direct conduit to immune health. Think
of how gradual is the gentle rise in pressure in your hug if you are really
saying: LOVE. Look at the shape of the finger's pressure on the violin
string massaging the envelope of rubato,to make the audience weep................

Notice,
importantly that only the RATIO of the moment of maximum pressure to the
duration of the touch, sends the wave down the cascade called emotion.
This was cross tested with a simple pressure of touch transducer to map
emotion, in cultures around the world. (References: "Sentics" by Manfred
Clynes, and "Music, Mind, and Brain" edited by Manfred Clynes, and presented
in the Nova series on "What is Music".) To get feeling from the language
of pressure in the ring of the glands, to the language of pressure in the
shorter high quality light which drives cell metabolism....that is the
problem of emotion.

Medical
literature proves that emotional state of mind programs the cell's health
more than perhaps any other factor. Emotion's access to the beautiful geometry
of ratio is the answer to this puzzle.Look for earth magnetic schumann
resonance in the heart frequencies.. to suggest not only the earth's ring
entrains the heart, but hearts in sync entrain the earth.. note the prominence
of 8 hz in the charts where the heart resonance successfully approaches
1.618 golden mean in hertz between harmonics, a cascade..

This
is how you reach out... The Earth's "Schumann" prox 8 hertz heartbeat magnetic
resonance, may not only be a harmonic phase lock predictive of Earthquakes,
it may be a resonator affected by group coherent heart fields. Earth grid
engineering in the arena of our own human emotion. Not only do we now have
the tools to teach coherent emotion/ Love with feedback, we potentially
have the ability to teach phase lock emotionally with our planet.

"The teaching
of the whispered lineage is the Dakini's breath"

The
literal translation of Dakini is "Sky Dancer". Generally when Dakinis are
referred to in Buddhist literature it is assumed they are devoted to the
Truth (Dharma). But the broader meaning of the word is a female spirit
who has some freedom but is still bound by their past actions.

There
are worldy Dakinis who are malicious and use their powers to confuse us,
to arouse passions that are destructive, and who use their charms for their
own selfish purposes. Dakinis can manifest on earth in human form or take
birth as a human. These are then called "worldly Dakinis" and I'm sure
you've met at least one or two in your lifetime. Women or men who seem
to be able to simply will things into being. People who are so charming
that they seduce whatever they want from the world and enjoy it fully,
yet also remain somewhat disattached from the results.

Dharma
Dakinis are devoted to a higher purpose and so their actions are generally
positive. But it is hard to generalize the actions of Dharma Dakinis since
they aim to break our rabid fixation on concrete thoughts. Dharma Dakinis
are not afraid to use their powers to dazzle us, arouse us out of our sleep
of habits, and seduce us onto a path of truth. Dakinis are tricky, capricious,
and unpredictable. We're in trouble when the Dakini disrupts our mind with
magic, breaks our habitual thought patterns with the miraculous, or simply
opens our hearts with mad adoration. Messengers between our earthly realm
and the higher realms of the teachers, they help to bring the powerful
teachings to earth, protect the truth from destructive forces, and bring
blessings to sincere seekers. The natural result is to fall in love with
a Dakini. How can you avoid falling in love with someone who inspires wild
love and higher meaning suffused with delight?

Fixate
on that pleasure and the Dakini does the most compassionate thing possible.
They fly away. Dakinis do not manifest simply for our pleasure. Dakinis
manifest the beauty of the Truth which is then an invitation to follow
the path of Truth. Sky Dancers help us through vision and inspiration.
But although we can be greatly inspired by a Dakini , they will only come
back if we put into action what they have shown us. In that regard a Dakini's
love is unswerving and always compassionate. It doesn't matter if we wait
a few hours or a few lifetimes to put our inspiration into action. Miracles
occur but sometimes it takes years to fully realize the implications. When
we do realize or remember, our hearts open, and again the magic and majesty
of the universe is open to us. The Dakinis celebrate the Truth.

Ecotopia, has been
held annually for the last thirteen years in Europe moving fromcountry to country
each year. It is organised by a local grassroots environmentalorganisation that
is part of the EYFA (European Youth For Action) network. It hastaken place in both
Eastern and Western Europe, in France and in the CzechRepublic, Holland,
Hungary, Germany, Romania, Finland and Scotland and drawspeople from the
four corners of Europe to each gathering. Last year Ecotopia was inBulgaria while next
year it will be in the Ukraine.

Held over the first
three weeks of August, Ecotopia is an attempt at building aself-reliant community,
putting into practice the governing principles of anenvironmentally
friendly life-style: waste recycling, vegetarian kitchen, consensusdecision-making
process, the use of alternative energy (hot water for dish-washingthrough solar panels,
etc.). Furthermore, Ecotopia is a place to exchangeexperiences, spread
information and enrich one's knowledge through workshops anddiscussions. Day-to-day
policy is made through direct democracy at the daily circle.Where possible Ecotopians
participate in regional actions and clean ups, workingwith local organisations.

Around 200 - 700
people been taking part in Ecotopia each year, attending a widerange of workshops
on environmental & social issues. These include climatechange, non-violent
direct action, consensus decision-making, the nuclear industry,organic agriculture,
vegetarian dishes, herbal medicine, social justice, gender issuesand human rights.
Also discussed was ways to implement alternative energysystems, alternative
decision making structures, promote alternative life-styles andhow to improve the
EYFA networks activities and projects.

Ecotopia has been
called EYFA's summer University and is open to anyone whobelieves in and
agrees with the Ecotopia Principles. EYFA wants people from allover the continent
to be able to participate in its activities. As the exchange rate isnot a fair reflection
of a currencies value in real terms, they invented ecorates, analternative to bank
exchange rates. The basic principle is that the cost of, forexample food, should
be the same at Ecotopia as it would be for a Dutch person inthe Netherlands,
a Russian in Russia, etc.

The English language
is the main language used throughout the gathering atmeeting circles
and spoken workshops. However translations into as manylanguages as possible
will be available.

Ecotopians are encouraged
to use sustainable transport methods to get to thegathering be it
by boat, train bus or foot. For those that have the time a bike tour toEcotopia across
Europe is organised for the 4 weeks preceding the gathering.

In the evenings there
are events related to the previously announced Ecotopiatheme. There is
a different theme every year, based on relevant issues for the hostcountry.

Recently, Ekotopia
Finland (2000) focused on "Globalisation" and Ecotopia Romania(1999) on "Sustainable
Communities". The theme for this year is "ConflictResolution"

Ecotopia 2002 will
take place in County Kerry in South West Ireland between 10th &24th of August and
is organised by Gluaiseacht for Global Justice. The bike tour toEcotopia leaves
Dover in England on July 10th and arrives in Kerry, Ireland onAugust 15th.

The theme for Ecotopia
2002 is conflict resolution. Given Irelands history of sectarianconflict and the
conflicts that have been in the news throughout the year be they inColumbia, Palestine/Israel,
New York, Afghanistan or West Papua we feel that thisis a particularly
apt issue to attempt to address. We hope that with your help, wewill facilitate
workshops on this issue; the primary objective being to teachparticipants how
local and global conflict resolution can be achieved. The followingare but a few of
the many different questions we will strive to answer in realising theobjective:

How can long-lasting solutions to current conflict be achieved?
Who bears responsibility for environmental and social injustice?
Will a proposed project, policy or law reform prove beneficial or harmful
to
human or environmental health?
How should an environmental resource/societal phenomenon, taking into
consideration its risks, costs and benefits, be managed into the future?

Building a sustainable,
conflict-free future requires processes that reconcilecompeting interests,
forge new cooperative partnerships and explore innovativesolutions. These
processes need to employ the abilities of all participants toenhance the quality
of life for present and future generations.

The conflict resolution
workshops will consider consensus decision making as aninvaluable tool
in solving many complex environmental, economic and socialconflicts. Consensus
processes will encourage creative and innovative solutions bybringing a diversity
of knowledge and expertise together.

We've already put
down some ideas of related topics: · consensus based decisionmaking ·
one to one mediation · peace activism · "terrorism" and global
conflicts ·intercultural differences
· racism/age/gender conflicts · environment and conflict.
Weencourage role-play
based workshops in which the use of imaginary conflictsenables the participants
to deepen into the role of the mediator and the powerdynamics.

The week preceding
Ecotopia in Ireland the War Resisters Triennial Conference willtake place in Dublin.

Let us make war on the phrase
"violence doesn't solve anything." It is a
lie, and anyone who utters it cannot be
taken morally seriously.

Take, for example, the American use of violence against the
Taliban. Thanks to it, Afghani women may get an education,
attend public events without a male escort, and otherwise
ascend above their prior status as captive animals.

Thanks to American violence in Afghanistan, Islamic terror has
started to decline in prestige among many Muslims who had
previously romanticized it. Though many Muslims still glorify
Muslims who blow themselves up in order to murder Jews and
Americans, the glamour of terror is dwindling. In Pakistan, for
example, there are almost no Osama t-shirts on sale, and no
more demonstrations on his behalf.

Even more significantly, a handful of Muslims and Arabs are
beginning to ask what is wrong in their cultures, rather than
continuing to blame America, Christianity and Israel for their
lack of human rights, political democracy and economic
progress.

Once again, violence properly used has led to major moral
gains for humanity.

You have to wonder how anyone can utter â?? let alone
believe â?? something so demonstrably wrong as "violence
doesn't solve anything" or "an eye for an eye leaves everyone
blind," or any other pacifist platitudes. These are the moral
and intellectual equivalents of "the earth is flat." In fact, it is
easier to show that violence solves many evils than it is to
show that the earth is round.

It was violence that destroyed Adolph Hitler and Nazism. Only
violence. Not talk. Not negotiations. Not good will.

It is violence used by police that stops violent criminals from
murdering or otherwise hurting innocent people. There are
many innocent men and women alive today solely because
some policeman used violence to save their lives.

It was violence that ended slavery in America. Had violence
not been used against the Confederacy, the United States
would have been cut in half, and millions of black men and
women would have remained slaves.

The answer is difficult to arrive at. Given how obviously moral
much violence has been, one is tempted to respond by asking
how people can believe any absurdity â?? whether it is that
Elvis Presley is still living, or that race determines a person's
behavior, or that 72 women in heaven await mass murderers.

Vast numbers of people believe what they want to believe or
what they have been brainwashed to believe â?? not what is
true or good. For vast numbers of people, it is simply dogma
that all violence is wrong. It is a position arrived at with little
thought but with a plethora of naive passion.

It is also often the position of the morally confused. People
who believe in moral relativism, who therefore cannot ever
determine which side in a conflict is morally right,
understandably feel incapable of determining when violence
may be moral.

Those who say violence never solves anything have confused
themselves in other ways as well. They have elevated peace
above goodness. Therefore, in these people's views, it is
better for evil to prevail than to use violence to end that evil
â?? since the very use of violence renders the user of it evil.

For those people whose moral compasses are intact, the
issue is as clear as where North and South are. There is
immoral violence and there is moral violence.

That is why it is so morally wrong and so pedagogically foolish
to prohibit young boys from watching any violence or from
playing violent games like "Cops and Robbers." Just as with
sex and ambition and all other instincts, what must be taught
about violence is when it is right to use it.

For if we never engage in moral violence, it is as certain as
anything in life can be that immoral violence will rule the world.
add your own comments

ugh (english)
ugh 10:58am Wed Jun 19 '02
comment#187112

It's not the violence per se that I'm against it's the brainwashing
of many Americans into believing that:

Violence By America = Good

You think the goal of the violence against the Taliban was for
the sake of Afghan women's rights? Why not bomb Saudi
Arabia?

Slaughtering thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan IS
NOT JUSTIFIED, PERIOD. More people were killed during the
US military's aggression than died on 9/11. The US is truly the
most violent nation state in the history of time.

Besides, all of that BS about women being free now in
Afghanistan is a MYTH. The Northern Alliance thugs are just
as bad as the Taliban soldiers were, and the CULTURE has
not changed, only the government. The incidents of rapes and
other sexist atrocities actually went up after the Taliban was
ousted.

And Hitler killed HIMSELF, no one else stopped him. And you
actually think that Nazism WENT AWAY after WWII??? Are
you kidding??? Ever heard of Project Paperclip? It was one of
the first projects the CIA worked on after their creation, post
WWII. It got thousands of Nazi scientists out of Germany and
into the US to work for intelligence agencies, the military and
universities. And there are corporations, WHO STILL MAKE
BILLIONS OF DOLLARS NOWADAYS, who did deals with
the nazis during WWII, like General Electric, Ford, IBM, and
many more. And guess who's GRANDFATHER was a HUGE
contributor to the nazi war machine, and even DIRECTLY
BENEFITTED FROM SLAVE LABOR CAMPS AT
AUSHWITZ? Why, it's your HERO, George W. Bush!

Here is some info on Project Paperclip:

http://www.guerrillanews.com/dangerous/

Here is a fantastic essay about just how much money Prescott
Bush made from deals with the Nazis:

http://www.clamormagazine.org/issue14.3_feature.html

And the "Civil" War was fought primarily for economic
reasons, despite common thought on the subject. The people
in power did not care about the Africans who were enslaved.
Abraham Lincoln actually said that he was not in favor of
equality between Africans and Europeans. He did not free the
slaves.

These are only a few scattered examples, but I could go on
and on and on. I don't have to defend non-violence, because it
defends itself. Violence always leads to more violence.
Period.

PEACE!!!

www.shiitakemushrooms.org

What an idiot (english)
pjd 3:49pm Wed Jun 19 '02
comment#187164

"Good" violence? "Bad" violence?

What a clueless idiot! Hasn't it ever occurred to this person
that every person who commits or directs an act of violence
always has their own moral justification for the act??? The only
other alternative would be insanity (which happens too, to be
sure)

No one says to themselves; "I think i'm going to be an evil
bastard today...."

For a street thug, it's: "that bastard cheated me on that drug
deal, I was wronged, and I am going to serve justice on him.

For Hitler, it was: "those Jews and Bolshevics are an evil
menace; it is up to the brave and moral German people to
save all of Europe from this menace."

However, for the USA over the past 50 years it is delusional
beyond belief: "we are (without any substantiation) the most
moral and free nation on earth; therefore we cannot commit
evil because we are moral and free"

or I always liked this one: "you have an economic system
which we believe is less efficient; therefore, you must die!"