There's an interesting review of MVD testing by Simon Swift on the Cavalier Club website - plus some interesting information about his interview for the PDE programme.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin

14th July 2009, 11:30 AM

This is truly disingenuous of Simon, who has made far stronger criticims of the clubs and the feeble support of its membership for any truly meaningful heart programmes.

I'd just remind people of his frustrated and exasperated criticism of the club that was posted to their site (and--surprise! removed) , for not having improved MVD rates in over a DECADE... for failing to seriously address MVD despite offering lip service, or to set up a proper testing and screening programme. He wrote this after the club, yet again, chose not to even recommend Cardiologist testing as the ONLY accurate indication of heart status (as is the norm in the two US clubs! Vet results are not even considered acceptable!). The only result of his criticisms was the Healthy Hearts list finally only lists dogs heart tested and certified by a cardiologist, as should always have been the case.

I have a copy of that criticism and will dig it out when I get the chance.

It was clear in chairwoman Lesley Jupp's post earlier this year that the broad membership's failure to meaningfully support heart programmes (eg cardiac testing) was a source of great exasperation for her too, as this has been one of her key issues.

Karlin

14th July 2009, 02:59 PM

This letter was sent to club members in 2006!!! The club chose to make no changes at all and still does not advocate cardiologist testing and according to Simon Swift below, most breeders obviously are not annually testing even with a vet. :sl*p:

Simon Swift's conclusions to his letter make very clear he has some major alarm and disappointments with how the club has (failed to) tackle the issue, a point accurately reflected in his excerpt in Pedigree Dogs Exposed. All the fluff around the issue would not have obscured the salient fact included there: lack of real support for the MVD protocol means the UK has not improved heart health in all the time it has given lip service to it -- FIFTEEN YEARS!!!

The club chose to remove his letter once they decided not to alter their programme at all. The one concession was the health hearts listing must now include only cardiac certified dogs. What a weak and ineffective approach to this very serious condition that kills most of our dogs well before their time. Surely it is better to have the dogs cardiologist certified BEFORE they are bred rather than when they are elderly, for the hearts list!! So many health-focused breeders would have welcomed a better and stronger club initiative. But all you have to do is look at the most recent KC records to see how it is the norm for most breeders, including many show breeders and even the various clubs' committee members, to routinely breed underage bitches and especially, studs. Many only vet heart-clear their dogs -- or don't even do that. Semi-doing something is mistaken for breeding for health. And our dogs continue to die at 7, 8 and 9. They shpuld be easily making it to 15-16-17, like similarly sized Tibetan spaniels.

HEART TESTING SCHEME
The following proposals have been made by Simon Swift who now lectures in
Cardiology at Liverpool University.
He considers that the Club MVD research has reached the stage when it is time
for a new Initiative. The Committee will be considering his proposals, but
would welcome the input and comments of members. Please let us have your
views.
Please forward your comments to:
Lesley Jupp

*************

Heart Testing Scheme

When the scheme was initially set up, there were few veterinary cardiologists
in the UK. in order to make the scheme as widely available as possible, it was
decided to allow any veterinary surgeon to complete the simple form declaring
whether the dog had a murmur or not.
There are now 17 Diplomates in Veterinary Cardiology and a further 74 with
the Certificate spread across the UK. The Veterinary Cardiovascular Society
(VCS) holds two lists of cardiologists who have been accredited to carry out
auscultation and echocardiography. These lists can be accessed via the
website. Other breeds such as boxers and Newfoundlands use these lists for
their breed schemes.
The UK Cavalier King Charles Spaniel scheme was set up about 15 years ago.
Since then, the Swedish breeding advice added that breeding dogs should be
over 5 or their parents over 5 years old and free of a murmur. Despite this,
there has been little evidence in progression or decrease in the incidence of
the disease.

Proposed New Scheme

We should continue to assess dogs on an annual basis until they are 5 years
old to detect any dogs that develop a murmur prematurely. This could be
performed by a Cardiologist or the local veterinary surgeon. These will be
quiet murmurs, so ideally, a Cardiologist should perform the examination to
increase the chances of detection. However, there will be a cost involved.
The examination at 5 years old should become a major examination as this is
the time at which we decide whether the dog and its progeny should be used
for breeding. This should be carried out by a cardiologist, preferably from the
VCS list, and should include:
1. Auscultation
2. Echocardiography
It has been well established that echocardiography is more sensitive at
detecting early mitral valve disease than auscultation alone. The thickness of
the valve and any prolapse can be assessed and colour flow Doppler
echocardiography can be used to look for small jets of mitral regurgitation
that have not yet reached the human audible range.
This would also make our breeding criteria more appropriate. At the moment,
we exclude all dogs with a murmur but may be including many dogs with flow
murmurs or other innocent causes of murmurs. This would explain why some
dogs develop murmurs, never go into failure but have their murmurs for
years. Using echocardiography we can be much more precise about the actual
cause of a murmur in an individual dog.
The examination will NOT involve sedation. There will be a cost (probably
about £100 plus VAT) and some fur may be shaved off the chest. If they pass,
their names should be published on a clear list that should be actively
promoted by the Club.
Issues
There are 3 areas that are likely to raise concerns for the breeders; namely
cost, location and unexpected failures.
1. Cost - while this is significantly more than the costs that have been
applied to date, it is not unreasonable. The exact cost will depend on the
clinic involved. As this is a single major examination, there will be no
ongoing charges after 5 years and comparisons with MRI can be made.
2. Location -the distribution of veterinary cardiologists is not even
throughout the UK. but now there should be sufficient that no breeder
has to travel excessive distances.
3. Failures - there should be an established appeals procedure where a
'breeder does not accept the result. In that situation, and initially it may
be quite common as the dogs will not hav~ murmurs, a second
echocardiographic examination can be performed by a cardiologist from
the VCS accredited list.
Once dogs are over 5 arid murmur free, there is little benefit to the scheme to
continue to auscultate these dogs. However, it would be interesting to follow
these dogs and see at what point these dogs develop a murmur if they ever
do.

Conclusion

I would urge the Club to adopt this scheme. When I first became involved, the
Club was innovative in it's thinking and indicated it wanted to address the
issues of mitral valve disease within the breed. However, since setting up the
scheme, little progress has been made and the Club gives little indication of
wanting to carry that enthusiasm forward. Clubs in Europe and America have
adopted echocardiography as the gold standard and left the UK behind. As a
result many cardiologists across the world have little confidence in the UK
scheme: It is time to change.

In the US many breeders say their heart rates have improved from following the protocol and this has been stated by cardiologists there too. Either it works or it doesn't work. If there's been no improvement in the UK it can only be, as Simon Swift clearly believes, that the vast majority of CLUB breeders (as he is only talking about club programmes) do not follow even the basics of the MVD protocol and most do not get accurate readings (ie from a cardiologist).

Bet

14th July 2009, 04:25 PM

Could I mention that I had spoken with Simon Swift on the Phone around 4 Months ago ,asking him about the state of the MVD Problem in Cavaliers

His answer was that it was no better than it was 10 years ago.

Can I also combine this Post with a Personal message to all on the List who I will have insulted in the past with my thoughtless views and say how sorry I am to have made them.

If I could back in Time ,at the beginning of the SM Problem Making it's appearance ,I said things that I ,at that time believed, but then several things happened to make me realize how wrong I was in my views.

First of all I realized that if the SM Problem was not tackled properly ,it could go the same way as MVD Problem has done in our Breed ,maybe it has already
.
Dr C Rusbridge's Neurological Web Site appeared ,and eveything I had been arguing about was given an Answer

Then I thought about the PDE TV Film ,and realized that if it had'nt been for Jemima Harrison and her Film, would any notice have been taken about the plight of the Health Problems in Pedigree Dogs. I think not.

Next the Letter from the UK CKCS Club Chairman appeared ,a lady I have admired for many years ,It was Mrs Jupp who about 20 years ago got to grips with the MVD Problem in the Breed,I don't know if she was ever given credit for it ,how she battled on.

All those things combined ,made me know what a load of rubbish I had been Spouting.

The Final Straw ,as the saying goes that broke the Camel's back, was the Lewd and Suggestive Comments on a certain Cavalier Forum against Folk who were trying to improve the Health of Cavaliers.

I know I can't turn the Clock back, only wish I could,

Bet( Hargreaves)

frecklesmom

14th July 2009, 04:53 PM

I guess I'm dense in understanding his letter to the Club. Am I missing the importance of testing early and is 5-6 yrs the only important numbers now? :huh: Has the problem with early onset MVD now been eradicated so early testing is not necessary and therefore breed away but do have them tested at ages 5-6 when most are done with breeding (6yrs). Realize that having good diagnostic skills does not mean that those skills carry over to presentations but with all the emphasis on early testing and breeding responsibilites IMHO this correspondence is strange.

RodRussell

14th July 2009, 05:24 PM

In the US many breeders say their heart rates have improved from following the protocol and this has been stated by cardiologists there too.

I don't think this statement is accurate. I have never heard it before.

I don't know of "many" US breeders who even have been following the protocol. There are very, very, very, very few in that category. (I mean, like less than ten such breeders in the entire country.) What I have heard is that some of the US breeders -- who do not follow the protocol but who just have their dogs' hearts tested -- have claimed that their bloodlines' MVD onset rates have improved. If these claims are true, this means only that things have gotten better for them since they began testing at all, but that they still have not followed the protocol (i.e., waiting until their breeding stock was MVD-cleared at 2.5 years, and all of the stocks' parents were MVD-cleared at 5 years of age).

I do not believe any US cardiologists have ever stated that CKCS MVD onset rates have improved from following the protocol. All I have heard in that regard is a comment by one cardiologist -- Gil Jacobs -- who said that the onset rate of Cavaliers has been improving among the dogs he had examined recently at CKCS conformation show heart clinics. He was not linking that observation to anyone following the protocol.

The bottom line is that hardly any CKCS breeders in the US have been following the protocol -- except perhaps occasionally by coincidence as opposed to intention -- and the vast majority of the new AKC-only breeders (new since 1998, that is) do not even know about the protocol, because the AKC's parent club, the American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club, refuses to provide any information about it on its website, or even acknowledge its existence.

Bet

14th July 2009, 05:59 PM

Like you Frecklesmom and Rod ,I don't know what to make of Simon Swift's Article.

Is he saying not to bother with the UK CKCS Breeding Guidelines, when it was advised to Heart Test and not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2,6 years. He just can't be meaning that surely.

Has he been misquoted ?

Is there any-body on the List who actually heard what he said. ?

This is only second hand ,but I was told that he said at the AGM that the MVD Problem is No Better than it was 20 years ago, that 50 % of Cavaliers will have a Murmur at 5 years of age.

This could mean that of the 11,000 Cavaliers Registered here in Britain by the Kennel Club last year ,around 6,000 could have a Heart Murmur in 5 years time.

In Simon Swift's MVD Article ,he mentions about the Accredited Breeders Scheme, I sent for a Copy of the List about a Month ago ,and was disappointed to see a good number of the Top Cavalier Breeders are not involved in this Scheme.

Bet ( Hargreaves)

Bet

14th July 2009, 06:23 PM

Could I add this comment ,that in a 2009 Report by the UK Veterinary Cardiologist ,Simon Swift, to the UK's Cavalier Club .he stated that 50% of Cavaliers still are developing MVD Murmurs by their Fifth Birthday

This is because most Breeders are not following the MVD Breeding Protocol.

I have just taken this from a MVD Cavalier Site on the Internet.

This sure makes sense of Karlin's Post about what Simon Swift had said about 3 years ago.

Bet( Hargreaves)

Brian M

15th July 2009, 09:13 AM

Hi Bet

And wellcome to you on CT ,I do relise that you do have great knowledge on
your specialist subject MVD but I also do hope that I have no reason to resort to this in the future .:)

Bet

15th July 2009, 09:39 AM

Thanks Brian M,and hopefully your 4 legged Friends will be fine. Why I have seemed to go over the Top about Our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem ,is because I have battled for around 20 years about it .Talk about banging your Head. I just wanted the Cavalier Breeders to make sure that the Sire and Dam of the Puppies they were selling had no sign of Heart Trouble.

This is why I feel it's so important for Cavalier Breeders to MRI Scan their Breeding Stock.

Back to the MVD Problem, in the late 1980's ,Dr B Cattanach ,Geneticist ,and Bruce Field ,who was the UK CKCS Club Health Representative ,were involved in trying to get to grips with the MVD in Cavaliers, but had to walk away in disgust because of the Attitude of some Cavalier Breeders.

Is History Repeating itself,with some Cavalier Breeders' non-co-oporation in MRI Scanning their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

I was even told by a Cavalier Breeder that they would'nt be getting involved in the EBV Scheme and that some other Cavalier Breeders are saying the same.

Bet (Hargreaves)

sins

15th July 2009, 10:08 AM

Hi Bet and welcome back.
My sister lost her nine year old cavalier to MVD about a month ago.Thankfully she didn't suffer and went quickly but left them very traumatised and suffering massive guilt that they couldn't/didn't do more.
I read Simon Swift's report and wasn't sure what to make of it,although it was only a summary.
As for PDE only giving him a fraction of the recorded time to talk about the Club heart scheme,it allowed Jeff Sampson instead to fly the flag for the scheme which he did quite robustly.
I think many breeders have done very well in improving MVD,maybe they just need to get them tested regularly and recorded on the heart list.
The list just seems to be *over fives* but the dogs could be any age.
The most depressing fact is the acceptance of the veterinary profession of MVD in the breed.My own vet just calls it the "breed standard murmur".
There are many people who are unhappy with things in the doggieworld,some complain and do nothing,others just blunder along and go with the flow but every now and again a few will come along and decide they can either wait for someone else to do something or get off their backsides and do something about it themselves.
It's always good to see a pet owner battling for the breed they love so much.Hope you've been keeping well.
Sins

Claire L

15th July 2009, 10:11 AM

Can I also combine this Post with a Personal message to all on the List who I will have insulted in the past with my thoughtless views and say how sorry I am to have made them.

If I could back in Time ,at the beginning of the SM Problem Making it's appearance ,I said things that I ,at that time believed, but then several things happened to make me realize how wrong I was in my views.

As the saying goes:
let he who is without sin cast the first stone..........

:flwr: Welcome back Bet.

Brian M

15th July 2009, 10:13 AM

Hi Bet

Well we have something in common as neither of us are wanted on THAT other breeders forum who seem to either ban you or insult you if you dont agree with the party line. So as I said I am more than pleased to see you here its a far higher quality of people who I know will highly appreciate your vast knowledge base on MVD.
Thanks Bet.

jasperpaw

15th July 2009, 10:56 AM

I have to agree with Sins about the veterninary professions acceptance to MVD in the breed, while I feel we have a very good vet dealing with Jasper`s MVD when Jasper first went back to vets after coughing earlier this year, after she had done an xray to find the extent of his problem her comment was "it`s the usual cavalier thing" which is not much comfort and he doing fine, I worry for the future of him and all cavaliers as I would dearly like to have another one sometime in the future.

Bet

15th July 2009, 11:03 AM

All I can say is Jings, !!!,Thank you all for your Welcome, And I just can't say often enough ,how much I regret and sorry I am about what I said in the past to so many Folk.

Yes Sins ,I am keeping fine, it's always a bit of a worry when the next check up is due.

Bet ( Hargreaves)

Margaret C

15th July 2009, 03:55 PM

Hello Bet,

Thank you for the public apology.

We have already talked on the phone, and the episode is now closed as far as I am concerned.

I do know you have always been a tireless campaigner for cavalier health, so welcome back.

Margaret C

15th July 2009, 05:25 PM

Next the Letter from the UK CKCS Club Chairman appeared ,a lady I have admired for many years ,It was Mrs Jupp who about 20 years ago got to grips with the MVD Problem in the Breed,I don't know if she was ever given credit for it ,how she battled on.

Bet( Hargreaves)

Lesley Jupp has worked for years on the Cavalier Club heart testing scheme. She spent countless hours adding information to the database. She tried in every way possible to encourage owners to support the scheme.
The problem was that relatively few breeders actually submitted forms ( 8667 dogs on the database over a period of 18 years.)

I only know of one breeder that followed the heart protocol to the letter ( not breeding until dog & bitch were at least 2.5 years old and without a murmur, and their parents were 5 years old and murmur free )

We said we had a MVD protocol, it was on the Cavalier Club website & published in the Yearbook.
At no time did anyone stop, look, and question whether the scheme was working, whether it was worth going on with it, or whether something other than a failed voluntary scheme should be considered.

The protocol was designed to tackle early onset MVD. It has not worked because breeders did not follow it, and having looked at the latest Breed Record Supplements, it seems they are still not following it.

I am not talking puppy farmers or back yard breeders here, I'm talking about cavalier club members.

Most, but not all, breeders who are club members will probably have their dogs and bitches heart checked before they breed from them, but they breed from them when they are far too young, few wait until the dogs are 2.5 years.

The problem is that if you use a dog when he is one year old, and he sires nice puppies, then he could have numerous descendants beore he reaches the age of four years.

If he develops a murmur at that age............

Then if you mated him to a bitch of fourteen months, who developed a murmur at three years old............

And they had produced a nice puppy, who became a top stud dog, and was first used when he was 10 months........

And remember 50% of cavaliers will have a murmur at five.
Under the existing protocol not one of those cavaliers, nor any of their puppies ( if they produced them after the age of 2.5 years ) should have qualified as breeding stock.

Voluntary testing does not work, breeders always find a reason why it should not apply to them.
Health tests need to be mandatory.

Bet

15th July 2009, 06:27 PM

Thanks Margaret, I appreciate your Post very much, I did say some dreadful things,

As you say Lesley Jupp has worked so hard over the years to get the Cavalier Heart Testing Scheme off the ground.

The UK Cavalier World ,particularly us Broken Hearted Cavalier Owners who lost our Cherished Cavaliers at such an early age because of the Heart trouble afflicting our Breed have so much to be grateful to Mrs Jupp for .At least she was listening to us. ,As I have said ,it was known about the Cavalier Heart Trouble since the 1940's, Cavaliers were being used around those early days ,with Heart Trouble, at Stud, is this why there really does seem to be not much improvement in the Cavaliers Heart Problem ,is there now so many Cavaliers around Carriers of the MVD Gene.

What is so disappointing that there are still some Cavalier Breeders Blinkered about the MVD Problem.Just look at the 2008 UK CKCS Top Stud List and see how many have been used at Stud before they were 2.5 years.

I have worked out ,I think that over the 18 years Simon Swift mentioned of 8,667 Cavaliers being in the Data -base, that would be about 480 per year ,how many Cavaliers would that be from CKCS Club Members.How many would that be being Bred from ,who had not reached the Breeding Guidelines.?

This is why I say ,for goodness sake don't let the SM Problem go in Cavaliers, the same way as the MVD problem has done, but maybe it has already.

Maybe though ,times are a bit different now ,us Cavalier Pet Folk have now the use of the Internet,and can get the Message across to other Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyers, always ask to see a Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder that Health Tests have been carried out on their Breeding Stock, if this can't shown, then Walk away. Nothing will focus Breeders Minds if Cavalier Puppy Buyers do this. !!

Bet (Hargreaves)

*Pauline*

15th July 2009, 06:49 PM

Welcome back Bet. I tired to contact you to keep in touch as you were leaving CC. I'm happy you have had a change of heart and I am looking forward to you joining us in the battle against SM as well as MVD. cl*p

tupup

15th July 2009, 11:01 PM

Hi Bet, its good to see you on here,im sure your wealth of knowledge on MVD will be appreciated & good to now have you on board for the much needed fight against SM. Its of great concern that some breeders are not willing to get involved in the EBV scheme & i strongly agree with Margaret that all testing needs to be mandatory, IMHO look at the mess thats been made whilst its been voluntary.
FWIW i admired your stand on CC after their vile "jokes"

Jay

16th July 2009, 03:54 AM

I have to agree with Bet that the internet may be thing to help with the MVD and SM issues that the Cavalier breed faces. It may not be that most new buyers of Cavaliers will know to ask for certificates, but us "repeat offenders" will certainly know. In addition, with the internet it is much easier to research the ages at which dogs are being bred to determine which breeders are more closely following the MVD protocols and who are totally ignoring it. I guess I am just having a hard time understanding why a breeder would not follow the guidelines that their own clubs recommend to improve the health of these wonderful little dogs.
J.

Karlin

16th July 2009, 10:47 PM

The depth of the heart problem in the breed is apparent to me from doing rescue and utterly soul-destroying, not least because so many -- pet buyers and breeders -- seem to just accept it now as the norm and have lost all sense of outrage and on the one hand, would rather get the cheaper, quicker puppy than support a good breeder with the proper heart certs and breeding programme, or on the other, think the MVD protocol is a great idea but don't really follow it themselves in their breeding programme. :x

I take my rescue dogs as they come in to the vets that I feel give the best heart readings and the majority of dogs coming in over 5-ish will have a murmur. :(

Many of those with murmurs were used for breeding. I think of Sam who went to Mattiesmum, who came in with a severe, high grade murmur and had been a stud dog. The vet was shocked at the state of his heart and thought he might only live a few weeks -- happily he had far longer than that thanks to a loving home and proper medications. The breeder told me I didn't need to neuter him because he could still be used at stud for a few years more by his new family. :eek: Yet his heartbeat was so slow the vet couldn't even believe he was alive.

Then there's poor Suzy who just came in with Tizzy, again from an IKC (Irish Kennel Club) breeder. She has a grade 4 or 5 murmur at about age 5-6 and is being rehomed because she has had the maximum number of litters allowable for the breeder to have received IKC registration for the puppies. That's six litters of puppies from a mother with a severe murmur who probably was never once heart tested or only tested at a young age that was meaningless for the MVD protocol (what you don't know you don't have to feel guilty about). Those genes likely went to many of those puppies, and no doubt many of those puppies will be casually bred by owners who think having a few litters to sell would be nice.

Cathy T

16th July 2009, 11:35 PM

pet buyers and breeders -- seem to just accept it now as the norm and have lost all sense of outrage

So sad but so true. I speak from my personal experience. Shelby was diagnosed with a grade 4 murmur and my response was "I'm not surprised. Having 2 I knew that would eventually happen" And I speak with numerous pet owners who are mostly resigned to the fact that one day we will have to deal with MVD in our pets. Resigned and only inwardly outraged. So sad but so true. I've never really thought about it until now, that I'm resigned rather than outraged.

RodRussell

17th July 2009, 12:54 AM

We ought to recognize that MVD is pervasive in the CKCS, and it will remain so, much like Chiari-like Malformation. We cannot get rid of MVD without getting rid of the breed.

Early-onset (a murmur by the fifth birthday) MVD should be a different matter. That can be eliminated in as few as two or three future generations, if breeders would follow the MVD breeding protocol. Nearly all breeders don't, of course, so early-onset MVD remains a 50-50 chance for each dog produced.

I was reading on another CKCS-List today about this Cavalier breeder in Oklahoma who proudly claims that breeders health test and agonize over decisions, and that her cardiologist thinks progress is being made, and she really doesn't know how much more they can do, and so on.

Well, her breeder friends don't follow the protocol. Some of them may test their stocks' hearts, and some of those may not use stock which come up with murmurs, but they still breed underaged (under 2.5 years) Cavaliers, and the fact remains that an underaged Cavalier with a clear heart is just an underaged Cavalier that ought not be bred yet.

Perhaps the age of onset is being pushed back a little bit among those breeders who really do test and then only breed the (underaged) ones which pass. But when you consider that the MVD protocol was introduced eleven years ago in the US, if all breeders began following it then, they would have produced three to four generations of Cavaliers since then, and the end result could have been that early-onset MVD would have been eliminated by now.

Then this Oklahoma breeder attacks a Connecticut CKCS breeder (one, I must say, who has vast more CKCS breeding experience, health testing experience, and winning-in-the-ring experience than the Oklahoma lady, and who does in fact follow the MVD breeding protocol) for daring to state facts about some cardiologists not feeling that any progress is being made.

The Oklahoma lady's bottom line is that Cavalier people should control the dissemination of negative commentary about the breed. So, that is the typical US Cavalier breeder's solution to the early-onset MVD problem: Don't disclose any of the bad news, and then everything will be all right!

tara

17th July 2009, 03:41 AM

I have a question for the experts here (as I am certainly not one). If there are so few U.S. breeders following the MVD protocols, what can be done to make them do so?

I know power is in the hands of puppy buyers, and education is paramount. But it is extremely difficult to get a puppy from one of the few breeders who adhere to both MVD and SM protocols. A buyer has to be willing to hound these people to make contact, wait a decent period of time for a puppy, and possibly travel far for their dog. I'm not saying this isn't reasonable (I did each of these things), but it's just not a process all people will go through. I found making contact with these breeders to be the most difficult -- and I'm a very persistent person.

I don't mean to criticize good breeders at all. I completely "get" that they have lives, field a lot of puppy inquiries, go to shows, etc. But what can be done to create more breeders who follow protocols; and how can we make access to the "good ones" easier for the average puppy buyer?

BYB's or even club breeders who are cutting corners in their breeding programs are really good salespeople. I'm in no way supporting what they do, but I can see why some puppy buyers are attracted.

Bet

17th July 2009, 09:26 AM

Please read the bottom sentence Posted by Rod, his mention is unfortunately true of a number of Cavalier Breeders here in Britain.

Will Mandatory Health Testing ,and I can only speak about Britain ,help in the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.?

Have any others on the List got views about this.?

It has been shown that quite a few Cavalier Breeders are not heeding the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines for MVD ,and some did'nt even want Breeding Guidelines introduced for the fight against SM.

I know that Nikki Pauli, the President of the British Veterinary Association, has recently said that for Cavaliers ,Mandatory Health Testing for MVD and SM will be being introduced shortly,but that is for those who are Accredited Breeders only.There are unfortunately quite a few Cavalier Top Breeders not on the Accredited Breeders List.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Margaret C

17th July 2009, 02:11 PM

The depth of the heart problem in the breed is apparent to me from doing rescue and utterly soul-destroying, not least because so many -- pet buyers and breeders -- seem to just accept it now as the norm

Last year I was running a scheme, similar to the SM cavalier collection scheme, giving financial assistance to owners willing to volunteer their cavaliers for postmortem when they died.

Two of the cavaliers were seven years old and had collapsed and died from MVD. These were cavaliers frrom well known show stock.

This was the moment I stopped, thought, and recognised that although we boasted that we had a MVD protocol, nobody was using it properly.

The discussion on the other list, that Rod mentions, is very interesting...... We have one of the top importers of UK show cavaliers making offensive comments because I posted Simon Swift's entire article from the Cavalier Club website, instead of letting them cherry pick bits to put their own spin on.
A little later the Southern Club Health Representative ( and Chairman, perhaps too much power in one breeders hands? ) bitterly attacked Simon for acknowledging on 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed' that no progress had been made by UK breeders in tackling early onset MVD.

Bet

17th July 2009, 02:55 PM

I have noticed the comments you mentioned,Margaret, Can I say here I am getting it in the Neck as well ,what is that person's Problem ,surely the debate should be about helping our Cavalier Breed to live Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Margaret C

17th July 2009, 04:15 PM

I thought I would just check out on the breeders forum what they thought the role of a health representative should be.

Could I just say as a Heart Broken Cavalier Pet Owner, because of the MVD Problem in our Breed ,and there will be others on this List ,who have suffered the same Heart Ache because of the SM Problem in Cavaliers, that I was really shocked at how the discussion developed to-day,the CKCS Health Representative, seems to be saying that Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyers should not be being advised to see a Certificate showing that the Sire and Dam had been Health Checked for either SM or MVD.

What an out-look for the Future Health of Cavaliers.

Bet(Hargreaves)

sins

17th July 2009, 07:30 PM

I was really shocked at how the discussion developed to-day,the CKCS Health Representative, seems to be saying that Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyers should not be being advised to see a Certificate showing that the Sire and Dam had been Health Checked for either SM or MVD.

Then she'd better go for a lie down beause puppy buyers are not only being advised to see certs,they're also being advised how to interpret them.icon_blshing What's the world coming to at all?
It's no biggie really, there are even breeders now who happily put their scan certs and heart test results on their own websites.
Sins