Who’s Up for a Debate?

BROADCAST DATE: March 17th, 2007

Not Stone Hawk Narconon. Vince Daniels offered to have an in-studio debate with Per Wickstrom and Clark Carr but they refused to appear on the show. I wonder why?

To combat Vince’s many effective shows on the abuses at Narconon’s Stone Hawk rehab facility, Stone Hawk has purchased an hour of radio time each Saturday morning for a month to spread their PR nonsense. Wickstrom hops on a plane to come do their little show each week but can’t stick around an extra few hours to answer questions.

Anyway, Kimberly Darr returns to the show. She has been relentless in exposing the fraud and abuse rampant in the Stone Hawk facility in Battle Creek, Michigan. She’s been working hard to see that other patients and their families aren’t harmed by Scientology’s drug-rehab front group.

More and more people keep leaving Stone Hawk due to Vince Daniels’ shows. The latest to exit is Sue Wilkins’ son. Sue actually brought the sheriff with her to get her son out of Stonehawk this week. She talks about googling “Drug Rehab” and getting tons of sites all pointing to Narconon. That’s just one of the ways Scientology uses the net to lure people into their program. They created hundreds of sites pointing to their program. This not only buries the competition but actually increases the ranking of their main Narconon site in many search engines.

Sue’s son was in Stone Hawk for five days before managing to slip away to make a surrepticious phone call asking her to get him out of that nut house. It wasn’t until Sue had left her son in Battle Creek that she discovered the truth of the program from websites featuring stories of past guests on Vinnie’s shows. When her son’s call came, Sue hopped back in the car and saved her son from Scientology’s grasp.

He had entered on a Thursday, when the state of Michigan came in to inspect the facility. The results of the inspection aren’t released yet, however Stone Hawk claims the inspectors were impressed by how clean the place is. If that’s true, you can thank the patients because, as was pointed out on the last show, Stone Hawk freaked when the conditions were pointed out on the air and forced the patients to scrub down the joint

In the first Stone Hawk audio segment played by Vinnie, we are informed by Narconon that drugs are stored in fat. There is no scientific evidence to prove Scientology’s theories, especially that niacin removes those stored drugs fro the fat cells. This is the same non-fact based crap that got Scientology kicked out of California public schools. By the way, good work, Dave Touretzky.

The “Dear Alice” TR is described and much is made of the bullbaiting at Stone Hawk. You can see a demonstration and read an explanation of the TRs here.

Kim is trying to gather victims together for a possible class action suit. She gives out her email address for anyone that wants to contact her. One family has already sued.

After the break, they play a clip about how and why Per Wickstrom opened Stone Hawk.

Lynn Kasey scoffs at the claims of Narconon’s success rate and a good discussion is held about Stone Hawk’s claim that people can come back after leaving the program without paying more to re-enter. Lynn points out that the contract specifies they have to pay for an “ethics cycle” at a minimum $1500 charge.

Sue also points out that there was a lot of heavy smoking going on at Stone Hawk. That’s not surprising as Hubbard told his followers that smoking cures cancer.

Next Vinnie plays the clip of “Nicole” who speaks about how Narconon saved her life and her arm but she speaks about it in very Scientological ways, raving about the purif and touch assists.

In the final segment, we meet another Stone Hawk patient, who went through the program about a year ago. Chris Jones calls in from West Virginia. Among the horror stories Chris shares, he talks about being forced to live in a room with other patients as it was being cleared of deadly asbestos.

Just as with the smoking situation, Hubbard told his adherents that asbestos wasn’t dangerous. Architect Lawrence Woodcraft recounted his experiences dealing with this insanity while aboard the Scientology flagship, Freewinds. Read his affidavit.

Chris shares his stories about the bizarre bullbaiting practices, the Scientology connection and how the sauna got him sick. To top it all off, they wanted to know “what are you afraid of?”

What is Scientology afraid of? Can’t communicate? Can’t confront? What powerful beings behave this way? Instead of manning up and appearing with Vince Daniels, they aired another one of their infomercials at 6 a.m. this morning.

Clark Carr believes Narconon is a drug-free social-education model. I think it’s a scam. To prove me wrong, he spent the morning talking to parents of children who underwent the program at Stone Hawk. They stressed the importance of getting through the whole program. If the whiners who call in to Vince had just stuck it out, everything would have been fine.

Amy, a mom of a patient calls in. Her son, Michael, has been in Stonehawk for 4 months. She actually admits that her son was dumped at a cheap motel but let him stay there and fend for himself until he decided to return to the program. They even try to make this dismal practice of patient dumping look like a good thing.

A dad, Bob, also calls. No last names, please. That could lead to fact-checking. Bob’s son was a meth addict. Bob is in the construction industry and now does interventions and sends people to Narconon.

I believe Clark Carr slips and lets out Bob’s full name. He may be this Bobby Neuman.

A big thanks to Raymond Hill for researching the doctor who appears on the show. Dr. Alan E. Sosin appears as a medical expert to put the full weight of his professional credentials behind the quack rehab program. It’s not surprising to discover that he is a Scientologist. You’ve got to love his success story:

“My most important gains in Scientology have included the ability to realize the truth of things, that is, to achieve a higher reality. In the past the truth was often determined by what other people said and by my own reactions to prior experiences. That has changed, and I am now more able to observe what is true, without having things twisted by prejudice and evaluation. That has made me a happier person, with a willingness to face and enjoy the future.”

There’s no longer a need for him to rely on scientific facts that are known truths. Now he can feel free to believe whatever crap he “observes to be true.” Hey, watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat!

To close the show, Clark reads a quote from L. Ron Hubbard. It just happens to be Dan Murnan’s favorite quote which I read to him as he led me on a walking tour of L.A. years ago.

So we have here a doctor, supporting Narconon, a rehabilitation program using Scientology’s “Purification Rundown”, a procedure that has *no* scientific basis. Dr. Sosin field of “expertise” seems to be cancer treatment… Scary! I wonder if Dr. Sosin suggests the “Purification Rundown” to his patients as a treatment for their cancer…

Thank you for your amazing ouput that I’ve followed over the years. Had a thought… is it possible that since Scientology is afraid of this news getting out, dozens of them are streaming from the limited resources of Vince Daniel’s site? I’ve noticed in the past that video from the Wog Blog “hangs” for hours. Eventually I get to see it, but don’t want to assume the worst.

Was wondering if Vince and his station had any IP addresses for video requests that could be tracked to Scientology sources, or the flood was simply for interested parties. I sincerely hope the latter.

My son was also at Stone Hawk and was suspended for reporting the misconduct of a counselor and a female student haveing sex. I am still working on trying to get a refund. What I have said here is only the tip of the iceberg but I would like to help in any way that I can.

If you have complaints about the Narconon program, call John Wilhelmsen in charge of licensing for the State of Michigan at (517) 241-1970 and Jeannie Diver, the Quality Assurance Manager for the Mid-South Substance Abuse Commision at (517) 337-4406 extension 111.

WHO’S UP FOR DEBATE. About Dr. Sosin. Check you heart, your kidneys, your genetics on diabetes or cancer issues. If one of them goes into crisis mode, I guarentee you that you will not give a rat’s ass about whether Dr. Sosin is a Scientologist or not. And by the way, if you go into crisis mode you will want Dr. Allan E. Sosin. But let me guess, you will want the traditional western medicine stuff that is nothing but surgery and drugs that don’t cure but cause more complications. And along with it, you get doctors that can do nothing more than give drugs or do surgery. Given your weight and stress level, it won’t be long. And oh, by the way, I should listen to your rantings instead of Dr. Sosin? Good luck.

I work for Narconon Stone Hawk, I have not been through the program. I am not a scientologist nor do I believe in scientology. I can say to all of the information above is, that everyone that works for Narconon Stone Hawk is there for a reasons and those reasons are to get people off drugs or alcohol. We strive to make this happen. I have seen students that come into our center on so many drugs thinking that this was not for them. Those students graduated our program and are now living a fulfilling life. Some students have nothing when they get to our center. And who helps them??? Do you really know?? I myself have been shopping at 1 am for a student that came with nothing. No toothbrush, clothes, or money. He came for help with what he had on himself. Narconon supplied him with everything he needed. Does it say above why some students were suspended from the program?? Their child says “Mom I didn’t do anything wrong, they just kicked me out”! Let me tell you why some students are suspended- 1.) Bringing drugs or using drugs on the property. 2.) Stealing 3.) Committing violence against another student, property or staff member. 4.) Not willing to work on getting healthy. 5.) Committing sexual acts with another student. These are only some of the reasons. Nobody writes this in their blogs. The students families only see the dollar signs, in which they want back. Nobody wants to admit that their child messed up again in yet another rehab. Honestly if you want to believe all of the crap people write on there, than you would not be reading this. I have seen first hand how drugs can take everything away from somebody. We at Narconon Stone Hawk are given people their lives back. So there are maybe 15 stories on here. I see more than 15 people start the program every month. What about the many and I say MANY people that have came to Narconon Stone Hawk became drug free, now have their lives back and are fulfilling their once goals. I can sit there and post hundred and thousands of successful stories from students that have gotten drug free.
If you have any questions please email mail me at (narcononstonehawkbattlecreek@yahoo.com).

Carlyn, I’m not sure why you’re so upset. What truth did you post that is missing? I have deleted nothing.

And the forum is open but this is a blog. It’s a place where I share my opinions. I believe Scientology is built on fraud and quackery and that goes for Narconon as well. I’m telling my “side.” If you disagree, post your response.

In that way, it is open.

And if you aren’t willing to look at all the evidence that damns L. Ron Hubbard as a conman and a charlatan with no scientific evidence to back up any of his claims, then you can be called one-sided and biased.

I am not one sided or bias, I just find it funny that my first posting is no longer on the blog. You claim that Narconon is a scam, why?? We dont promote scientology to any of our students. Nor to our staff. We use some of the technology yes, but where do people get they right to say that we are cons? We help save lives and have help hundreds. You post everything saying that we lie and we this and that. Look at it this way, this web site does nothing but bask us and what we do. So my question to you is if your child was on herion, and needed help, been through 4 12-step programs and they didn’t work, what would you do? Would you allow your child to come and get help? Would you do anything for you child no matter what? We are only helping people, and you make all of us sound like we are doing the worst thing in the world. I just wish you could see what I have seen in our center. Someone on their last leg, doctors telling them there is no chance for them. Came to our program and we help save his life. Even the doctor was amazed. But that doesnt mean a thing to you because you only see L Ron Hubbard. Well I see, that we save lives and get people off drugs for life.

As far as scientific proof or evidence is concerned, the 12-step programs that exist worldwide today base their teachings, philosophies, and “evidence” on the findings of the psychological/psychiatric communities. Where is their scientific evidence; the most upstanding members of these communities will be the first to tell you that their “science” is really more of an art. Furthermore, if you’ve ever been to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, any diagnosis is based squarely on the observations of the doctor from the musings of the patient. They can diagnose you with a chemical imbalance, yet not make any chemical tests? Does that seem accurate or in the best interest of the individual to you? Just because the AMA says it is a disease does not make them right. They have been wrong before. I f therapy and 12-step programs are so great then why does it A) Take people years to make and apply any noticeable gains? and B) Why do only 1 out of 10 do well long-term? I don’t know our actual up-to-the minute numbers, but I know we are better than that.

You see, Carlyn, I put my full name out there and will stand behind what I say.

You told me you are not a Scientologist and yet your last post about evil psychs is right out of Hubbard’s paranoid, lunatic ramblings. I am trying to find out how trustworthy you are and how willing you are to stand behind your stantements.

I never mentioned psychs as far as drug rehab goes. That you leap immediately to evil psych material tends to make me not believe you are telling the truth.

Please show me the stats that PROVE that Narconon is more effective than any other science based rehab program. There are NONE. All you have is Scientology’s propoganda.

Let me ask you this, do you know what it is like to be a stone cold drug addict? Have you ever really felt desperate? Has the so-called church of Scientology scorned you in some way? Or are you just another person who just experiences fear of the unknown..,.like a child! It is exceedingly easy to pass judgment on something that you know little…or nothing about first-hand. I’m personally a roman catholic-which makes me an original Christian, not the bootleg pick-and-choose kind you see in Protestantism. Mine are the people that invented intolerance, yet I find no problem with what these people in Scientology believe. So if you are so interested in names and points of view, why don’t you at least justify yours. Why is it that you feel the way you feel about Hubbard and his beliefs? Are you a jilted ex-believer? A parent of some kid who could not even finish rehab? A former Narconon student who could not bear the thought of 4-plus months in rehab? Or are you just another ignorant person who could not tolerate something that deviates from your own beliefs? Please, at least divulge the source of your adamant position against this thing you call a scam. Please take into account the fact that every religion, whether widely and truly accepted or not, has its’ detractors. Narconon, actually is not affiliated with the church, and has done a lot of good for many people- the overwhelming majority of whom have never set foot in a so-called church of Scientology. What exactly is your problem. I just want to know why you feel the way you feel. Perhaps in knowing this, someone might actually find and do something better.

You know, you could simply ask “What are your crimes?’ It is much faster that way.

You can go to my main page and click on the About Mark Bunker and About XENU TV links for most of the answers to your questions.

No, I have never used a single drug, nor do I drink or smoke. I’m pretty dull.

People are welcome to believe any darn thing they choose including Scientology. I am a consumer advocate since I believe Scientology is a business cloaked in religion rather than an actual religion.

I am not trying to stop you or anyone else from practicing Scientology. Audit away. I am simply asking people to tell the truth. And the plain, simple truth is there is no scientific basis for Narconon’s treatments and some (such as dangerously high levels of Niacin) have been proven harmful.

I was never in Scientology but I have done a decade’s worth of research. Enough to tell me that Hubbard was a fraud and a conman. If you feel comfortable being conned, go right ahead. I won’t stop you.

i just wanted to say that i was in narconon arrowhead and the facility was filthy and the scientology stuff is bizarre they did not tell us that it was scientology and now they are trying to rip us off

I am amazed! I attended narconon stone hawk a little over three years ago when the entire program took place at one center. I admit that it was not like staying in a nice hotel but there were no bugs in my room or nastiness. I have been clean since for 3.5 years and i was an intense meth shooter for about 7 years. i learned a lot of things that i still use everyday and maintain my christian faith. Kate and Per saved my life and I think as long as anyone sticks with the program and just does what they are supposed to do they will prosper in life.
I did witness some students that would get kicked out or sent home but they did horrible things. some had heroin sent in and obviously got caught.( these were pre buster days) (he came right after) they were still allowed back to complete the program and are doing well now. If anyone got sent home they were not following the rules or respecting the program and were hindering the rest of us. I loved the program and the instructors and thank god for them everyday as i get ready for work and smile because im sober

Are you the heather that now works for Per? Per and his sister now run a forever recovery in battle creek michigan and although he says he has no affiliation with narcanon don’t believe it. most of his websites point directly to narcanon or the information from his websites are taken directly from narcanon. he mainly hires people he went through narcanon with or another recovering addict. then there’s pam who only hires someone related to her.

I attended stonehalk also…actually I was at both centers. I was in the first groups that went to the new building in Albion,but most of my stay was at the lake in Battle Creek. The new building was very nice. But the Lake was a dump. One of the students spent a week at the hospital because he got sick from the black mold. There were people there that needed medical attention that either didn’t get it, or if they took as much as an asprin, they would have to go to detox all over again which meant an extention of their whole program(which most addicts don’t want). There were people who had back pain and if they wanted to complete the course, they had to sit motionless in a chair with their eyes closed for 2 hours straigt, and again had to do repeat that exercise with their eyes open. If you move, you have to start over. Can you imagine, addicts addicted to painkillers because of extreme backpain, having to sit there for 2 hrs? I did see many students struggle with this for various reasons, but my heart went out to the ones who were in pain from severe injuries. And if you got in trouble, you punishment involved sitting in the chair motionless all day long…sometimes for days until the staff felt they had been punished enough.

I had hepatitis C and had to endure their niacin treatment in sauna. It made me very sick and my liver enzymes shot through the roof. Because I wouldn’t have been able to continue to objectives(which is supposidly a big part of the program), I begged the doctor to let me stay in the sauna and suffered through it because I wanted to complete the program so badly and get better.

Yes, all addicts complain at treatment. Naturally, when you have a lot of people coming off from drugs and living in a small space, nothing is going to be perfect. But these complaints were not regular little complaints that go on at all rehabs. The Lake was filthy…and you’d think paying $22,000 would at least get you a clean place. I’ve been in state funded facilities that were much cleaner. There were all kinds of crazy things going on. The driver for their facility bought my alcoholic roommate liquor and got her drunk. She brought alcohol back to the room and shared it with my other alcoholic roommate. Faculty and students were having relations. Its not like I haven’t seen clients getting together…but faculty and students, even more innapropriate!! These aren’t things i heard. These were things that I witnessed with my own eyes. I have too many stories to tell.

I did meet some nice people there, which made the experience tolerable. But was it what they advertised? Not even close! Did it live up to what I expected? Absolutely not! Would I recommend it to another addict? I did refer another person there upon hearing about it, but after going there myself, I would tell them they’d be better off keeping there money and going to a state funded place.

I feel bad to this day for asking my parents to send me there and pay for it. My dad had to take money out of his retirement to do so. The one thing I got out of that program was clean time, but I could have gotten that at another program. I completed the program. I never ended up in Ethics. I was a model student and tried to get as much out of the program as I could. But to this day, i feel ripped off, taken advantage of…and what you are hearing from me is only the tip of the iceberg.

I’d also like to state that I have nothing to gain from telling my story, my truth. I am not asking for my money back. I have no ill will towards scientology. I do think that the place is a hoax, but it is guided by the greed of the owners who are capitalizing off from other peoples suffering, ignorance, and misfortune. My parents couldn’t afford to send me to another rehab after this. As far as I am concerned, they robbed me of the treatment that I should have gotten, the treatment I paid for.

I also was in this program. They told my family that they would treat my heroin addiction and my schizophrenia. What a lie. They took me off all of phych meds without a dr.s order. I suffered phychosis for days. Being told that I let my dr. convince me that I had schizophrenia. And that I set myself up to fail. After days of discomfert they finally sent me to the E.R. I was so far gone I had to stay impatient for 3 weeks. Not to mention some of the supplements they were giving me did not interact well with my mental illness. One example is melatonin. Please be advised.

Needs help in answering some questions. My friend was just enrolled in Narconon Stone Hawk Facility, Albino Michigan. I have been researching for days and need answers. Im scared for my friend, please help.

My friend claims she and other students there have been using Heroine as well as bieng under the influence of alcohol. She says staff members are older graduates of the program and are corupt by having sexual relations with students still in the program.

She comes from a Christian family, im confused as to why they would choose stone hawks to send her to?

Likely the family was unaware of a Scientology connection. Narconon advertises heavily and buys hundreds of drug-related domain names, all pointing people to their facilities as if they cornered the market in rehab.

Also they hope people will be confused by the similar sounding legitimate Narcotics Anonymous.

I was in treatment in Albion also and after reading all of these posts that date back SEVERAL YEARS, let me assure you that absolutely NOTHING there has changed or improved for the better. As with some of the other people on this site, I saw FAR too many things to put them all here, but, by far, the biggest concerns to me, were the LACK of ANY medical staff there 24/7. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. There are sick people in the withdrawal unit who need their own nurse just for that side. There should also be another one accessible to the ‘well’ side also. It was next to impossible to find a nurse when I needed one. There is rarely ever a doctor on site for more than a few minutes a day; several days a week.
Another MAJOR problem to me were the LIES told to get me in the door. It is sad to be in a very vulnerable state and you call someone on a phone at a treatment center too far away to check out in person, and they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get you in the door. I had no idea that it was linked with Scientology and I felt horrible that my parents had spent so much money to send me there, so I decided to stick it out for as long as I could. I lasted for seven weeks. Everything that has been said about the place, I witnessed to be true. People having sex, crawling in and out of windows, drugs on the premises, etc. I also thought the TR’s were ridiculous. I asked a lot of questions when I first got there that mostly went unanswered and only got the staff (most of whom were struggling to stay clean also) angry and defensive; so, I found it better just to keep my mouth shut and ‘follow the leader’ until I finished the sauna. (which by the way, they did overdose the ‘clients’ on niacin)
the 75% success rate IS a COMPLETE LIE!
There were a lot of clients there who had already been there before. The 75% stats may be based on the clients who were too afraid to go home after graduation, so stayed there and became staff members.
However, there were also quite a few staff members who relapsed while I was there, so even those stats don’t add up either.
I am gaining nothing by sharing my story here. I only hope to help someone else RESEARCH more carefully than I did before choosing a treatment center for help.
There were some truly nice people that I met there and to those, I wish only the very best and brightest future~~

Read the comments….rehab is tough and requires tough people…what concerns me is if a person is in a dangerous situation…When around people with drug problems, they will steal, chet and lie to get money for their habit…are people in physical danger at Battle Creek facility…are people having sex, either concentual or rape…are people stealing…sounds like in years gone by there was lots of problems but is that still the case in 2011??

Hey…some really great posts on this topic of creepy scientology…I really appreciate the people out there trying to expose these money grubbing nutters!! Thanks for all you guys do for the public!!

The more I research and learn about scientology…the more creepy it gets…I can’t believe seemingly rational, intelligent people would fall for it!!!

I would like to tell my story about an experience at a scientology rehab front…I was at a place called Pur Detox in Laguna Beach (it’s now located in Dana Point, I believe) about 2 years ago…I should have done more research on the facility before I went…I was just there for a couple of weeks, and did not participate in the “sauna program” that supposedly gets the drugs out of the fatty tissue (no evidence proving it’s efficacy)…

Anyway, I fared better than some…there was a girl there who never abused drugs or alcohol…she came to get off of antidepressants and a small dose of benzodiazapines…she believed their bullcrap about both substances causing birth defects (in rare circumstances they do) …let me tell you that I have had four children and have been taking both antidepressants and benzos, and all children are extremely healthy…. when I came to know this girl, she was well into the sauna program…and EXTREMELY depressed and having panic attacks…she hadn’t slept well in weeks…the director of the sauna program made her feel horrible about thinking of going back on her antidepressants…said they were poison and going to deform her future children…she was ready to commit suicide for pete’s sake!!!

I had a talk with her and told her my story…I believe she went back to a non-scientologist doctor…(she was seeing Dr. Sosin…a MD scientologist…why don’t they take his license away???)…I think she is back on medication to help her with her depression… I just can’t believe what they tried to do to this poor girl!!!