Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.10
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20
Q. Yes, but in 1942 (and I cannot give you the exact month)
they developed two local farmhouses into much more
effective gas chambers. They tipped the Zyklon B through
the windows which they then closed with gas type
shutters. That went on for some considerable time. As
you know, in July 1942, Himmler visited Auschwitz and
following that, and I say as a matter of cause and effect
so I shall not be accused of post hoc propter hoc,
following that the existing plans for the two new big
crematoria at Birkenhau are altered, so as to convert them
into gas chambers with crematoria, and at the same time
crematoria 4 and 5 are designed and built in the early
part of 1943 up to about June. Then they start in full
operation from then until the autumn of 1944. That is the
Auschwitz story.
A. Only yesterday you said that there no mass killings by
gas
in Auschwitz until the end of 1942.
Q. I did not say that, I think, if you look at the
. P-85
transcript. Do not let us argue about what I said.
You
can verify it on the transcript.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we go back it Hitler and Himmler
because we are going to have to go through Auschwitz
in
detail later?
MR RAMPTON: I agree.
A. It is just that paragraph 2 rather challenged that.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. You made that observation and we
have dealt with it. Let us get on.
MR RAMPTON: I am going to deal first, since I have now got
it -- my Lord, the file in question is H1(ix) at page
260.
A. Page 260.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we have had H1 (ix), have
we?
A. Page 260?
MR RAMPTON: Yes, page 260.
A. It appears to be an orphan. It has no title.
Q. I am sure you have not read it, but you will have
heard of
Noakes' and Pridom's great work on the history of Nazi
Germany?
A. Whose book is this?
Q. You are not going to read it, so I do not really see
why
I need to, but, anyhow, it is called J. Noakes, G.
Pridom,
"Nazis 1919 to 1945" in three volumes, published by
I think the Exeter University Press in 1988. This
page,
260 in our file, is page 1199 of that massive work.
It is
a translation, presumably by Mr Noakes or Mr Pridom,
or
. P-86
both of them, I know not, of a speech which Himmler is
supposed to have made at Posen to, I think, German
Generals? Were they German Generals?
A. It was the SS Gruppenfuhrer.
Q. SS chiefs in Posen, nowadays called Posner, on 4th
October
1943. Unfortunately, once again I do not have the
German. I would like to have it and I am hoping to
get
it.
A. It will not be contentious, Mr Rampton. I will not
dispute this translation.
Q. Have you glanced at it?
A. Yes. It is a very famous speech. It is referred to
on
page 575 of my Hitler's War. I quote it in full.
Q. He says: "I also want to talk to you quite frankly
about
a very grave matter", etc, etc. "We can talk about it
quite frankly amongst ourselves and yet we will never
speak of it publicly". Then he goes on a bit talking
about an analogous event in the past which is the
Night of
the Long Knives, it is the SA obliteration, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Then this is the sentence to which I would like to
draw
your attention: "I am referring to the Jewish
evacuation
programme, the extermination of the Jewish people".
That
is, you say, a very famous speech. What words can you
remember -- I am sorry I have not got the German --
what
words can you remember Himmler used when he said what
we
. P-87
see here, "I am referring to the Jewish evacuation
programme, the extermination of the Jewish people"?
A. I shall have to look at the original text, it is
either Auswotung or Vernichtung -- but it is not a
material point, because he immediately explains he
means
killing.
Q. The point I wish to draw your attention to is this,
that
there, Himmler, speaking to SS chiefs, or whatever it
was,
uses evacuation and extermination synonymously, does
he
not?
A. In that case, yes.
Q. It is a jolly good pointer, is it not, Mr Irving, to
the
use of such camouflage language habitually within the
SS
at the very least?
A. Yes, it is rather like the Americans talking about
terminating with extreme prejudice.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you did agree that "Evakuierung"
can
be used and is sometimes used as synonymous with
extermination?
A. It is not always used, but in this case it clearly is.
MR RAMPTON: Here is an example one cannot argue with.
A. But it would be false to argue automatically the other
way.
Q. That as a matter of logic is necessarily right; as a
matter of history it may not be. Can we then turn to
page
73 of Longerich, please?
. P-88
A. Yes.
Q. At the top of the page, now here I have got the texts.
"On 6th October 1943 Himmler explained to Gau and
Reichs
chiefs in Posen: I ask you that that which I say to
you in
this circle be really only heard ..."
A. Which page are we on now?
Q. 73 of Longerich one.
A. I do not think it can be 73.
Q. You must have the wrong part of Longerich.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you sure it is Longerich one?
MR RAMPTON: Longerich is divided into two parts. Yes, you
have
the wrong bit; you are looking at the second bit.
A. All Longerich is divided into two parts.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why he divided it into two, I do not
know.
MR RAMPTON: Generalities and then particulars, rather like
a
lawyer.
A. OK, yes, it is a totally different volume. This is,
of
course, a different speech now, isn't it?
Q. It is two days later.
A. That is right, yes.
Q. The audience is different as well.
A. The Gau- and Reichsleiter.
Q. You will find that and I think we should look at it --
it
is going to be particularly important when we come to
Sonthofen in May 1944 -- in bundle H4 (ii).
MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are darting about a bit. Are we
leaving
. P-89
73 of Longerich?
MR RAMPTON: No, I am just starting 73 of Longerich; I am
actually getting the document.
A. I am not sure you want to read this out, because this
supports entirely what I have always said, but carry
on.
Q. That is very good of you, Mr Irving; I think we
probably
will. The document begins -- have you got the
document
there?
A. Yes.
Q. It is quite a long speech, something like 49 pages.
A. Yes.
Q. The first page is marked, my Lord, at the bottom
right-hand corner, FNA (86).
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have got it.
MR RAMPTON: It says: "Rede des Reichsfuhrer SS". Does
that
mean speeches?
A. Speeches of the Reichsfuhrer SS to the Reichs- and
Gauleiters in Posen on 6th October 1943, and speaking
as
always as the Reichsfuhrer SS and as a Party comrade
to
you.
Q. The Reichsleiters and Gauleiters -- how senior are
they?
A. The Reichsleiters come directly beneath Hitler and
they
have the rank of minister.
Q. And they have automatic access to Hitler, do they not?
A. Subject to what I said a few days ago, that they would
have to get an invitation before they could go to see
. P-90
Hitler. They could not just knock on the door or ring
the
bell.
Q. If you just turn the page, I am sure you are very
familiar
with this.
A. If I may just carry on there, Krista Schroeder,
Hitler's
private secretary, was a witness of the conversation
between Hitler and Martin Bormann after the flight of
Rudolf Hess when Martin Bormann took over as chief of
the
Party Chancellory, and Bormann said to Hitler, "Mein
Fuhrer, what instructions do you have", and Hitler's
response was: "Only one. Keep the Gauleiters off my
back". In other words, he did not need them any more.
I think it is a material point of view of the fact
that
you are trying to draw attention to the closeness
between
Hitler and the Gauleiters.
Q. I think you have accepted a closeness between Himmler
and
Hitler.
A. Yes, they visited two or three times a week.
Q. Yes, and here is Himmler talking to high-ranking
people in
the Nazi machine.
A. Yes.
Q. And the Gauleiters are perhaps subordinate or they are
less high ranking than ----
A. Than the party machinery, yes.
Q. --- than the Reichsleiters?
A. Yes, a bit like the constituency chairman.
. P-91
Q. This is a gathering of high-ranking people?
A. Yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Gau is a region or an area, is it?
A. It is, yes, like a constituency in the Conservative
Party;
these being the chairmen of the local region. They
wore Jackboots and carried guns.
MR RAMPTON: If you turn to page 17 -- this is taken from a
microfilm -- I think I am right that the relevant
passage
or the passage which is translated in Longerich begins
just in about the middle page opposite the punch hole,
"ich bitte Sie"?
A. "I do ask you to keep secret, to listen to what I am
saying, just listen and never to speak about it, what
I am
saying in these circles. We came up against the
question,
what about the women and children, and I took the
decision here too for a clear solution".
Q. Carry on.
A. "I did not consider myself justified in liquidating
just
the men", in other words he says "auszurotten", which
is
the word there he uses and then he expands. He
explains
because he feels he has to explain what he means by
"auszurotten". In other words, "to kill them" or "to
have them killed". He himself is pointing out the
word
"auszurotten" is not sufficiently clear even in these
circles; he has to emphasise what he means by it, and
to
leave ----
. P-92
Q. Can you carry on just a bit further, please?
A. Yes. It is very complicated German.
Q. I know, something about letting the avengers ----
A. Exactly, and "to leave alive the children to act as
the
avengers against our sons and grandchildren". In
other
words, the idea is that if you leave the next
generation,
the younger generation alive, then they will come back
to
haunt you.
Q. You have got to exterminate the whole brood.
A. Absolutely what he says that.
Q. If you leave one mouse then it may have children?
A. That is right. A highly significant speech in many
respects.
Q. Carry on reading, please, just two more sentences, "es
musste der schwer Entschluss".
A. "There had to be taken", I am putting it like that,
"there
had to be taken the grave decision to have this people
disappear from the face of the earth. For the
organization which had to carry out this job, it was
the
most difficult that we had so far."
Q. Yes. The method of disappearance about which Heinrich
Himmler, the Reichsfuhrer SS, is speaking in early
October
1943 is murder?
A. Quite clearly.
Q. Quite clearly.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: By what means?
. P-93
A. I am not sure if it is really relevant here, my Lord.
Q. Well, answer would you even so?
A. I do not think he is talking about means there, but
obviously by murder.
Q. I appreciate that, but what do you assess him as
having
had in mind?
A. But whatever means to convey them from life to death.
He
is certainly not being explicit here, but of course,
my
Lord, it will not surprise you that I rely on the
earlier
part of that paragraph where he says, "I had to take
the
serious decision." I think this is a very powerful
point
in my favour. He does not say: "The Fuhrer took the
decision", where he very easily could have in these
circles. He is speaking, after all, to the top Nazi
leaders.
MR RAMPTON: Not on this occasion explicitly.
A. He is being very explicit indeed. "I had to take this
decision".
Q. If Hitler or -- no, it does not say that.
A. "I decided".
Q. "I decided to find a very clear solution to this
problem".
A. "I have taken the decision to find a clear solution".
Q. If Hitler already knew about it ----
A. You cannot climb out of that one, Mr Rampton.
Q. I can, I am just about to. Do not worry, I am going
to
. P-94
show you another document which I know you are
familiar
with, so I do not know why you say what you say. I
will
find out later perhaps.
A. There is no need to get rattled about it, but this is
a
cardinal document, Mr Rampton. Here is Himmler
saying,
"I took the decision".
Q. Mr Irving, can I ask you to calm down a little and
answer
this question. If Hitler already knew about it, the
injunction to the Gau and Reichs leaders to not speak
about it would not matter, would it, I mean so far as
its
going upwards is concerned? What they are not
supposed to
do is to talk about it lower down.
A. He does not actually say that. He just says "keep
mum".
Q. I know, but if Hitler already knew about it and had
actually given Himmler the order to do it, in general
terms, the authority to do it, then he is not talking
about not telling Hitler, is he?
A. I am not prepared to extrapolate from what it is in that
document. I am just saying what the document tells us,
since he says: "We are doing this but keep quiet about
it."

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