Posted
by
Soulskillon Saturday January 02, 2010 @06:14AM
from the that-fourth-party-crap-doesn't-sound-so-bad-anymore dept.

Clandestine_Blaze writes "Chinese police have arrested 5,394 people — with another 4,186 criminal cases in the works — in one of the largest crackdowns on Internet porn in the country. Even more arrests are expected in 2010, according to the Ministry of Public Security's website (In Chinese or Google translated into English). According to the Reuters article on the crackdown, one of the justifications was that the pornography was 'threatening the emotional health of children.' From the English translation of the Ministry of Public Security's website linked above, it appears that certain provinces are also offering 1,000 yuan and 2,000 yuan rewards, per person, for reporting illegal websites to the government."

It also reminds me of a common claim regarding criticism of porn crackdowns: "Why are you whining about porn; in China they have real censorship about political things, that's what real censorship is like", they cry. Stories like this show that different kinds of censorship - whether moral

If God (the moral agent) does not exist, then there is no concept of "wrong", right?

No. Wrong. Go back and retake Ethics 101 and learn that there are many, many ways to arrive at a more or less workable "moral code". And no, the "religious dogma as authority" path is seldom one that reaches the level of "workable", having almost invariably, a built-in "us versus them (who are less than us)" way of thinking.

The direct exchange rate is not nearly as interesting as actual buying power that reward represents to the average person in China. I haven't studied economics, so someone can totally call me out on this, but it looks like purchasing power of the US is roughly eight times that of China, according to the Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]. Based on this slightly-informed conclusion, it appears that the reward is roughly 1,172 USD, 1,233 CAD, 725 GBP, or 818 EUR. That number seems much more persuasive.

He means the equivalent "value" to that person, in terms of just how much pain you would feel handing over that amount of money. The Big Mac index is a simplified version of how this (purchasing power parity) is measured.

China is not a Left Wing or Communist State. There may be an entity called the Communist Party of China, but by no means is China Leftist, or even Socialist. They are a Fascist Autocracy.

No liberal or leftist government would attack the consumption of adult pornography. (Nor would they even care.)

Not that I am advocating Communism, which has failed everywhere it has been tried, and is an unworkable ideology, but as a leftist, who is deeply concerned about the rise of Right Wing Fascism around the world, I am concerned what this could cause Western governments to adopt. We have already seen that a large percentage of our Christian Right extremists in the USA and Canada do not believe in sexual equality or egalitarianism, or freedom of speech. I worry this will give them ideas.

Socialist crackpots have defined socialism and communism as good, hence by definition nothing bad is part of it.

If a state does bad things, the state is not a socialist state, hence it cannot be used as a negative example for any purpose in discussions about socialism.

Similarly, capitalist crackpots have defined the free market as good, hence by definition nothing bad is part of it.

If a market produces bad outcomes, that market is not a free market, hence it cannot be used as a negative example for any purpose in discussions about capitalism.

Untruths about socialism cannot be accepted even in the most private corners. (Cue Norway, where the Socialist Left party announced that the state is better than parents at raising children most of the time).

Similarly, untruths about capitalism cannot be accepted even in the most private corners. (Cue the United States, where the Republican Party regularly announces that the individual is better than the state at doing everything all the time.)

Libertarian crackpots are just as guilty. Whoever modded the parent down was probably one of them!

Ask them why the USA's free market in health insurance sucks so much and they'll say "it's just not free ENOUGH". Even though every country with health insurance that WORKS has way MORE government involvement.

Health insurance is not remotely a free market. Hardly anyone pays directly for their treatment so there are no pricing signals, yet we allow providers to charge whatever they want. We've somehow managed to combine the worst aspects of capitalism and socialism without the benefits of either.

We should decouple health insurance from employers (another idiocy brought to you by government intervention), encourage people to buy high deductible catastrophic in

whereas its parent, which is a comment that stands exactly on the same distance to the right of the spectrum, is modded insightful.

since both comments employ the same approaches but from the other side, this only implies that the moron who used the mod point on the parent has modded it down with political bias. appalling to see such low quality brains exist among us.

Parent is using a straw man fallacy: setting up a false premise that is easy to knock down with the subsequent argument; banking on others to accept the false premise.

Patriotism and Nationalism (2 different things) often suffer from attempted hijacking by crackpots seeking to redefine them.For example, in the USA socialism has been misunderstood for over a generation and the crackpot definition is currently mainstream. "Keep the government out of my medicare!" etc.

Besides, this left/right paradigm is for simpletons and the poor reasoning that results aids the political parties. So, the misunderstanding is perpetuated. In addition, many people are willfully ignorant when it comes to politics (there is no stigma of shame like there is with illiteracy.) A far more realistic model is TWO DIMENSIONAL: left/right + top/bottom. Check it out: http://politicalcompass.org/ [politicalcompass.org]

I reiterate:So now we define words based on what the crackpots think they mean?

'socialist crackpots'. this is the first phrase in your post. it renders your post SO credible and respectable that it goes beyond calculation.

and in addition, there is the ignorance that renders much respectability to your post. without knowing any other country other than your own america, which you believe that the best country on earth because YOU WERE TOLD IT TO BE SO, you are totally devoid of any knowledge about how europe has been living under left governments in the majority of the last 60 years, a

I bow to your credibility and respectability. Oh wait, I am actually European and have never lived in the US. This does not mark you as an idiot AT ALL, because as a liberal, progressive and educated European you could never be a judgemental and ignorant stereotyper who jump quickly to conclusions about people based on their country of origin. Certainly not if they were African anyway, but maybe American?

if you dont want to be taken as a right wing nutjob american, DONT talk like one.

I thought it was how the Sweden Democrats, a self-described nationalist (in the National-Socialist Hitlerian sense) party who believes that cultures should belong to a single country, got 7.4% of the poll votes, up from 4.9% 3 months ago and 0 some time before that.Or how the racist Salem march got delayed by the police because they had to root out the storage crate of metal batons that progressive liberals had stored in the forest, together with a stack of gas masks to supplement their black scarf face covers.Of course, as Swedes the leader of your biggest party is Mona Sahlin, who has said some great things about your country: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mona_Sahlin [wikiquote.org]

yea, this small outstanding example here, this small outstanding example there. if you take that route, it will take days for me to list the infrigements on freedoms and liberties that has happened in america in that sense, and in many other senses as well. its the end result, and the average that matters.

Funny, I remember a case where four 15-year old girls beat up a 14-year old girl they had bullied from some time and locked her in a shed, then approached an immigrant with finger language to make him an offer, after which he followed them to the shed and raped the girl and paid the four 200 NOK for their helpful service as agreed. And where a young Norwegian girl in an immigrant neighbourhood told about how she wished she was still a virgin, so that she wouldn't be bullied as much and seen as a worthless and dirty whore by those she lived amongst. Of course, since there are no problems in Scandinavia, these must be stories I have made up just to be silly. Please, tell me how they are all lies about the great and safe Scandinavian countries.

funny. i thought exceptions did not make a rule, but apparently, in your skewed reality, they do. i also thought psychopaths

The only way I could really respond to this would be to call you a Little Hitlerian Maoist who has drilled a little hole in his little red book to enjoy every night. But you've exhausted your quota of attention.

whooaaaaaa hahahaha. now now.

To be frank, it makes me happy to see Sweden being steadily on the path to being fucked, because so many Swedes are assholes, and it's the only way (although I guess even that won't be sufficient and they will blame sabotage and external enemies - which you do, congrats) for them to realise how idiotic their policies have been.

apparently you are taking me as a swede. which further signifies how skewed your understanding and viewpoint are. for, im not a swede. im not near sweden either. im not even in europe in practice either. im in turkey, and hence looking from an unbiased, remote viewpoint.

but, i will just leave you to drivel in your right wing kookery. audieu.

As an American living in China, it pains me to see this sort of hysterical nonsense on Slashdot all the time. China is the new Evil Empire, apparently. Scream "fascist" all you want, but you and most other westerners do not understand Chinese civilization or the role that government has traditionally played in it. Then again, maybe the U.S. should "pre-empt" their errors, and save China from the Chinese.:-P

The basic reason that the Chinese do not allow porn is that they believe that it demeans women. This goes back to the revolution, in which women were eager to participate to get some basic equality with men. You can argue that women have a choice, but in poor provinces, you can bet that it would be akin to prostitution, where young women are basically forced into the lifestyle because they have no other options.

Chinese society is quite conservative about sex, or at least it has that appearance. For example, it isn't unheard of to hear of a foreigner beaten into a coma for deflowering local girls. In a country where virginity is prized and sex can almost be like a contract for marriage, that sort of thing isn't taken lightly. In the same way, if Chinese people think their women are being debased (as in porn), they tend to get very angry.

I am not going to try to explain 5000 years of Chinese civilization to you, or explain every way that it is different from the West, but I would encourage Slashdotters to read this article from the LA Times. It explains quite a bit about the role of government in China and how the West has gotten it wrong with predicting that China would become more like them (developing a rights tradition, embracing democracy, etc.).

The basic reason that the Chinese do not allow porn is that they believe that it demeans women. This goes back to the revolution, in which women were eager to participate to get some basic equality with men.

How's that working out for the women in China? Here in the West where porn is legal (for the most part), we have Germany with a female prime minister. Great Britain had a female PM also. The US has had multiple female VP candidates. We have numerous female in cabinet positions. A woman currently is the leader of the House of Representatives. Another is running DHS badly. Another woman heads the state department. That's the public sector. In the private sector we've had countless female CEO that I'm not going to bother listing all of them.

Are there any signs women are equal with more men because China does not allow porn? I'm not terribly familiar with the internal governing of China or who runs their corporations. I'm amazed I even know where China is on the map.

While I suspect we are in ideological agreement, I think citing female politicians as a sign of a country's empowerment of women isn't a terribly hot idea because I can name a couple of contrary cases: Pakistan and Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and the Philippines with presidents Corazon Aquino and Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo. Both countries are very restrictive of their women - although they are both in the grip of different religions.

The upperclass has always operated under different rules from general population. We've had queens, emperesses and princesses going back forever in both the west and the east. If female politicians leading a country were a sign of general female empowerment then women have not been repressed since at least the days of Cleopatra.

I am saying one thing - the presence of female political and business leaders doesn't mean jack squat about the amount of gender parity in the general population because for every example in a liberalized country one can find an example in a repressive country. Capiche?

Fully empowered and successful, a woman in the public or private sector will rise out of the general population. Case in point, one Sarah Palin. Unless you think that her background is upper class.

The same applies to men, incidentally.

There's a secret to political leadership in democratic societies. The first skill that leads to political success is fund raising. The art of fund raising is directly related to your ability to convince other people to open their wallets and give you money to run your campaign

I agree. Don't jail people for a speculative theory. If they have solid proof it "undermines women", then you have a semi-case. But right now it's merely arm-chair guesses from up on top.

If China really wants to help women, then do something about the "last name" problem where sons are "valued" more because they carry the family last name when married. That's a huge and real stigma problem.

And if you jail everybody for porn, then you waste resources that could be spent on real crimes.

Yeah, and I wonder about the consequences of this high male to female birth ratio due to single child policy and preference for male (hence lots of abortions of females). What are they gonna do with all those extra males if they can't keep them happy with an extra serving of porn ? Send them off to war ?!?

I would've thought porn and prostitution is more important than ever now that there is a massive gender imbalance brewing in China. Way too many girls being aborted in the past, so there is an excess of young men.

As for porn not being allowed because it demeans women, isn't that the basic premise that applies all over the world, universally? Yet porn exists anyway, and is consumed by many who (hypocritically) claim to be protecting women. OK, now that's opening a whole new other can of worms.

Yes they are different but were we not exactly like them once? As societies develop and stabilise they generally become liberal. Chinese so far have gone in this direction. People said things like this about many of the traditional conservative countries in Europe as well but over time they too opened up. People are not somehow fundamentally different - but they have different cultures - and these change over time. They are not going to turn into liberals immediately, but as the average education improves,

That mysticism argument goes something like this:"Oh you can't possibly understand Chinese culture; It's too complex for you, and even if you learned Mandarin, read every book written in Mandarin, you still can't understand because you weren't born Chinese"

The reality is quite simple to understand. China is crashing into the modern world and as individuals try to make sense of it all, the national identity is in crisis. From the top down, there comes authority and an appeal to history, nationalism and racism.From the bottom up, comes sexual revolution, and rejection of tradition, as well as some reflection of authoritarianism that came from the top.

Basically you're just generalising, and generalising sucks because it gloms everyone together, then stamps all over individuality.

Ps. I didn't find Chinese girls and guys;-) in the least bit conservative about sex.

How about the one-child policy, which causes Chinese to prefer male children, to the point where female children are abandoned or "accidentally" killed? You'd think that would demean women.

You are mixing cause and effect. The fact that they value male children more is preexistent; now add the one child policy, and you have the causes. The result being the mass elimination of female babies.

As an American living in China, it pains me to see this sort of hysterical nonsense on Slashdot all the time. China is the new Evil Empire, apparently.

Not really. China is the old Evil Empire.

Then again, maybe the U.S. should "pre-empt" their errors, and save China from the Chinese.:-P

If China is truly determined to industrialize without any thought to emissions, then perhaps the world should save the world from China.

The basic reason that the Chinese do not allow porn is that they believe that it demeans women.

That's a bunch of horse shit. Chinese culture is demeaning to women. I've had to sit through several rants on sexism in China. As a result of sexism in China, there are over 25 million excess males of military/breeding age, and another 25 million on the way, for whom there are no women. No nation's women prefer Chinese men, including

Hey,dude. I'm chinese and i think i know my culture and my country well. I agree with you to some degree, but i have to say that this conservative about sex has greatly decreased in the generation of "90s". They dont care so much about things like virginity as their parents do, the value of this generation has changed a lot. The social and economical reform after 1979 has created both economical prospery and social problems, about which the government is so worried. Many ppl think the government act as if

Chinese society is quite conservative about sex, or at least it has that appearance. For example, it isn't unheard of to hear of a foreigner beaten into a coma for deflowering local girls. In a country where virginity is prized and sex can almost be like a contract for marriage, that sort of thing isn't taken lightly. In the same way, if Chinese people think their women are being debased (as in porn), they tend to get very angry.

To illustrate: recently former miss Belgium, UN goodwill ambassador and sexologist Goedele Liekens went to China to speak at the university of Beijing. Her lecture got shut down by the professor in charge because, true to her no nonsense nature, she wasn't shy about talking directly about the male and female genitals.

Chinese society is quite conservative about sex, or at least it has that appearance. For example, it isn't unheard of to hear of a foreigner beaten into a coma for deflowering local girls. In a country where virginity is prized and sex can almost be like a contract for marriage, that sort of thing isn't taken lightly. In the same way, if Chinese people think their women are being debased (as in porn), they tend to get very angry.

I hear you re: western fear mongers, but some of your stuff is WAY off base. In particular, prostitution is a big business in China -- lots of hair salons (especially near army bases, but anywhere busy), KTV salons (not the ones that foreigners typically go to), and Yezonghui "night clubs" have some sort of prostitution going on. There's a reason why waiters in restaurants are now called "fuwuyuan" instead of "xiaojie" -- too many connotations.

You can argue that women have a choice, but in poor provinces, you can bet that it would be akin to prostitution, where young women are basically forced into the lifestyle because they have no other options.

Compared to what women would normally do in poor provinces to get by?

I think that if China is worried about 'demeaning women', it should worry more about:

The lopsided male-female ratio is believed to be the result of female infanticide in a society that values boys and where most couples are allowed only one child.

I would like more substantial proof that women are being 'demeaned' by internet porn more than China's own disastrous social policies (which began in their current form long before the internet came about).

Scream "fascist" all you want, but you and most other westerners do not understand Chinese civilization or the role that government has traditionally played in it...it isn't unheard of to hear of a foreigner beaten into a coma for deflowering local girls....

Right, nothing fascist about that. Why would anyone scream fascist?

I'm sorry, but "understanding" a culture doesn't excuse it. I'm sure if you "understood" slavery in the United States you it might make more sense. I'm actually a bit surprised the Gre

As an American living in China, it pains me to see this sort of hysterical nonsense on Slashdot all the time. China is the new Evil Empire, apparently. Scream "fascist" all you want, but you and most other westerners do not understand Chinese civilization or the role that government has traditionally played in it. Then again, maybe the U.S. should "pre-empt" their errors, and save China from the Chinese.:-P

The objection that we can not judge a state because we "do not understand Chinese civilisation" is cliché and polemic toward historians and political scientists.

The PRC shows many signs totalitarianism and nationalism. It is a severely oppressive ethnically authoritarian superstate.You may want to argue how this is good and the best thing for Chinese people, but I think most people consider all of these characteristics of "evil-Empire".

I would have to say that treating womens sexuality as a treasure owned not by her, but by her family and society, which is what you're really talking about here, is typically just another way of demeaning women. Pornography, prostitution and promiscuity (how alliterative) are fairly divisive issues even among feminists. Some feminists take an absolutist approach and insist that a women's ability to choose to participate in such is a form of empowerment, whereas others see some or all of those things as deme

I recently finished an excellent set of Yale uni Online lectures by R Wyman titled "Global Population and Biological Development". In one of the later lectures Professor Wyman reported on first hand experiences of scientist working in China investigating birth control programmes both as to their implementation and efficacy. In an earlier lecture he made the point that the current Chinese government has been able to convince the general population that the Chinese state exists as a viable entity. This point is interesting in light of reports by people working in China reporting on various birth control programmes. The gist of the reports was that the central government made sweeping claims and policy implementations that when translated, implemented and reported by the various districts came out in the wash as markedly different from the original proclamations made by the central government. Locally people seem in large measure to implement such policies as they see fit and to colour reports back to the central government to placate central control agencies.

Chinese history is a history of warring states so much so that I'm not able to subscribe to Professor Wyman claim that China has attained unification. Taiwan stands out as a stark example in terms of how young the mainland state is. I recall the Chinese government is only about 60 years old and faces an economic reality that greatly flies in the face of it's communist posture. A central regime that broadcasts slogans like "Purity and Harmony" and implements draconian practices to influence it's population on the level of their sexual drive smacks of desperation.

Chinese history is a history of warring states so much so that I'm not able to subscribe to Professor Wyman claim that China has attained unification.

It's also a history of unified empires. One isn't more typical than the other. How you view it seems more a matter of personal preference (the glass is "half full" versus "half empty") than any objective measure of Chinese society.

We have already seen that a large percentage of our Christian Right extremists in the USA and Canada do not believe in sexual equality or egalitarianism, or freedom of speech. I worry this will give them ideas.

So...what you're saying is, that as long as people believe what you believe regarding sexual equality or egalitarianism, for example, they can believe whatever they want to believe, right?

But otherwise, their beliefs are dangerous, and must be...wait for it...wait for it...censored. Or better yet, criminalized.

All that to say that I hope you realize that you're doing the exact same thing as the people you obviously despise. I do recognize you won't be able to handle the cognitive dissonance of this idea

No liberal or leftist government would attack the consumption of adult pornography. (Nor would they even care.)

I dunno. USSR certainly had a leftist government, even if authoritarian one - I mean, it had universal healthcare, free post-secondary education for everyone, guaranteed work, free apartments, any full-time salary (and remember, work is guaranteed) would provide you with enough to eat healthily, etc.

And guess what? Homosexuality was a crime in USSR, punished by imprisonment for up to five years, since as early as 1926. The rationale? Supposedly, homosexualism is "one of the byproducts of the ongoing moral r

It's only $300, and I believe the websites need to be hosted in China. They want to stop people from making porn in China (viewed as exploiting local women), and they don't care so much about people simply viewing porn on foreign sites. $300 is the monthly salary for many Chinese, if that puts it into perspective. It's difficult to say whether what class that is, though, because incomes are all over the place. Maybe it's a working class salary.

um... wasn't there a slashdot report about whitelisting of all foreign web sites, so that no external porn would get into the country?? did someone in the chinese government forget about the concept of a) mirrors b) home-grown porn, then?

I find porn on the internet by clicking on banner ads until I get to a porn site. Its like thw owl in the lollipop... one... two... THREE! It takes THREE banner ad clicks to get to porn on the internet!

In some corners of the world it is time to get serious about crypto and darknets. If the chinese government is not careful, their attempts to suppress pornography may lead to the creation of networks which will ultimately bring them down.

WHITEHALL, Beijing, Friday (NTN) — British police arrested thousands in the Digital Britain drive against Internet file sharing throughout 2009, officials said, which critics say is being used to tighten overall censorship.

The British government has run a highly publicized campaign, “Digital Britain,” against what officials said were banned file sharing of Lily Allen songs, overwhelming the country’s Internet and “threatening the emotional health of children.”

Lord Mandelson said late on Thursday that the crackdown on Internet file sharing had brought 5,394 arrests and 4,186 criminal case investigations in 2009. The announcement on the Digital Britain website said the drive would deepen in 2010. Police would “intensify punishments for Internet operations that violate laws and regulations. Strengthen monitoring of information,” it urged, “Press Internet service providers to put in place preventive technology.”

The ministry did not say how many of the 5,394 suspects arrested were later charged, released or prosecuted. The anti-file sharing drive has also netted many sites with politically sensitive or even simply user-generated content, in what some see as an effort by the government to reassert control over new media. The ruling Labour Party worries the Internet could become a dangerous conduit for threatening images and ideas.

Britain has banned a number of popular websites and Internet services, including Wikipedia. NewsTechnica passed without comment, however.

Says crackdown on online pornography is part of overall effort to preserve "national long-term stability," build a "harmonious socialist society," and prevent the "poisoning of young people's physical and mental health," but most likely is all about strengthening its grip on the what could be a dangerous conduit for threatening images and ideas.

As part of that effort it says that it intends to create a "blacklist" that will provide "timely information about foreign propaganda, radio and television, publishing and other areas for their disposal."

As a native Chinese, I really don't think that the reason to crackdown on online pornography is for the health of the children. The internet seems to be the only media where the voice of criticism on the Chinese govenment could be heard, since the newspaper and T.V. station are firmly controlled by the Communist Party of China. The discussion on the social affairs on the internet may have some pressure on the government. Although the morality of the Chinese tradition mertis the virginity of Woman, the open

If we were truly honest about porn it would come with a mental health warning.

I turned on the television a few nights ago and watched Clint Eastwood beat three men unconscious with a axe butt and then casually remark that "you can't beat a good piece of hickory". Should that have come with a mental health warning too?

"Pink Slime"??? The sub-grade beef article you link to sounds very much like the known dangers of DHMO [dhmo.org]. It is important that the government start banning these terrible substances. Heck, I wouldn't doubt it if researchers even found DHMO IN the pink slime.

And we should stop the stupid ban on drugs because it doesn't work, makes the problem worse, and who the hell are you to tell me what i can or cannot do with my own body. So yes, we have a precedent, and it doesn't work.