The deck is based on the tradition of Parfait/Mono White Control. The major alteration is the use of cycling as a form of card-drawing; you have 28 cards maindeck that draw a card, allowing the deck to have great digging power when it's looking for cards against a certain matchup.

Card-by-card;

Plains: They're Basic. No reason why they have to be Snow-Covered, I'm just using them as a tribute to the late, great Crazy 88's.
Secluded Steppe: The first one drawn is usually played first turn, when you lose no tempo off of it. Past that you're going to usually cycle them. Running 23 land, 4x Eternal Dragon and so many cyclers helps fight mana screw. The Steppes also help fight mana flood.

Creature Hate:

Humility: Crushes most creature-based strategies really, really fast.
Wrath of God: Clears the board.
Swords to Plowshares: Best targeted removal in the game.
Wing Shards: A bomb against aggro-control and control.

Situational Cards:

Gilded Light: Anti-combo tech. It cycles.
Abeyance: Anti-combo, anti-control tech. Amazing synergy with Wing Shards. It also cycles.
Renewed Faith: Least powerful card hardcast, but often stalls a turn against aggro while allowing you to dig deeper by cycling.
Akroma's Vengeance: Resets the board, acting as a Desert Twister that you can cycle away at worst.
Rune of Protection Red: Strictly better than CoP, really. Beats Goblins, beats Burn, which would otherwise be a hard matchup; it cycles.

Kill Conditions:

Eternal Dragon- The best Control creature in the game, hands down. Fixes mana, can swing the game in the control mirror match without ever entering play, and thwarts counters. Provides massive land stabilizing/thinning.
Decree of Justice- Less utility, but more powerful. A wrecking ball against most decks, especially with Humility on the board. Sometimes it's not even bad hardcast. It's an established fact that U/G Madness loses with 5 4/4 Flying Angels on the board.

Sideboard Cards:
Disenchant/Aura: You need Artifact and Enchantment hate. These are two of the strongest cards in that category.
Phyrexian Furnace: Cycles, and pwns graveyard recursion.
Orim's Chant: More anti-combo tech.
Genju: An extra kill condition when you need it, that can provide life gain. And it might be able to get around Humility. Still trying to figure that one out.

Matchups:

Landstill: Ridiculously easy. They can't touch your kill conditions, really. Standstill is often better for you than it is for them. Meanwhile, you have enough creature hate to keep their kill conditions from getting through. Dragon alone can wreck them. And you're maindecking Abeyance. It's hard to lose a round to Landstill with this deck short from getting completely screwed the first game and running out of time. Sideboard; Bring in Disenchants, move Humility and Wrath of God out. Possibly bring in Genju or Furnace over Gilded Light/Rune of Protection. The only card in their deck you're really at all afraid of is Crucible, which can make your Wing Shards obsolete.

ATS: Haven't been able to test this yet, results pending. Every other Survival deck has been a walk in the park, but Force/Mana Leak might change that. Undoubtedly your primary dig target is Humility, like against other Survival decks.

U/G Madness: 55-45 about. Slightly favorable, but still quite swingy. The counters can prove worrisome. Your top dig targets are Wing Shards and Abeyance. Wing Shards is vital to this match; they'll usually be able to deal with a Wrath or Humility.

Vial Goblins: Heavily in your favor. You're running a bajillion creature hate and maindecking Rune. I mean, really. Fuckin' Rune of Protection. At least 60% in your favor. They lose the late game hardcore, so they're going to want to get the God hand and hope you don't have Swords/Shards to deal with it. Find the Rune and you win. Don't, and you probably win anyway.

Solidarity: Your best bet here is to pick up their deck, replace it with one of your own design that doesn't have lands, and hope they can't tell the difference. Otherwise, I recommend grasping their knees and supplicating for mercy. At least 80% in their favor. Once in a while you can draw triple Abeyance and hope to win that way, but it's not looking great. Your best bet is to try to win first or second game and then hope to stall into a Time draw. Cycle and early Decree for 2-3 soldiers, keep digging for Abeyance and Gilded Light, bluff them if you don't have them, and hope to God their draws suck and/or they don't know what they're doing.

Tog/Hulk: It's like Landstill, only Wrath of God and Humility become a lot better. Once in a while they can get a good aggro hand and a couple Duress's, but generally this is an easy matchup with very little stress on you to do anything but mock your opponent's ancestry. Most of your cards are good in this matchup. If you really want it to, Gilded Light can even counter a Duress that would strip away a useful Decree or Wing Shards.

Nausea: About even. The fact that their kill condition can never be used in response to an Abeyance, and that they don't run Force of Will, makes all the difference in the World. You're still only running seven cards maindeck against them, but those seven cards are very effective at doing their job. The fact that Gilded Light actually counters Tendrils is amazing, since they can't even hope to go off in small bursts. Renewed Faith can also fuck with their math sucessfully.

MoSH/Darwin's Revenge: I'm something like 2-7 against this deck, and I have no idea why. Maybe I'm much worse at drawing cards than Brian is. Humility seems like it should wreck them, but instead it sits in your hand or gets discarded to the Night's Reach bitch. Unfavorable matchup. Sideboard might help with Disenchant/Aura.

I'll get some more detailed matchups once I get to actally play ATS, and I'll probably post my tournament report from the Dual Land Draft tourny.

I'm really not seeing how this deck deals with counters, but I suppose that I should test it first :;):

Anyways, I'm really glad to see that you put in the time to test out a MWC variant in Legacy. I was always a big fan of Parfait, so this is great. So, how about that Belcher being an auto-loss?

Slay

04-21-2005, 07:04 PM

I fail to see how this deck can beat Landstill. Landstill has Swords to Plowshares for your Dragons, and you have nothing to protect them with. They have Wrath of God and Disk for your Decree tokens. And with a far superior draw engine than you, they'll see thsoe cards quicker than you'll see threats. Not to mention how your threats cost assloads of mana to use. Your only real hope of winning is by decking them, and that seems very difficult to do.
-Slay

Kadishack

04-21-2005, 08:05 PM

@ landstill matchup

When landstill drops a standstill all he does is, sits there compiles his mana and then cycles decree for an ASS-TON and wins. The factorys and such can be dealt with by cycling earlier decrees to block.

Slay

04-21-2005, 08:20 PM

If Landstill decided to remove the usual Mishra's Factories and Faerie Conclaves for Forbidding Watchtowers, you might have a point. Until then, TIBA has to get enough mana to beat the ten-turn clock going on without casting a spell.
-Slay

Silverdragon

04-21-2005, 08:26 PM

Since ĄAstroglideď (the R/W Cyclingdeck by Fakespam) was posted in this forum I have been working on a very similar deck using Humility to hose Survival and Cycling to hose Landstill. What I found out during my testing is that this deck can easily use Enlightened Tutor to build a toolbox of Enchantments and Artifacts. Before I give you a list I want to make some comments on cards that could be used in this deck instead of weaker ones (imho).
First, you said that you have a weak matchup against Solidarity but a strong one against Vial Goblins. So why not take those Runes to the Sideboard and play some Rule of Law main instead?
As Slay said your Matchup against Landstill doesn't seem to be as good as it looks on paper so I'd suggest to cut one or two of the more expensive cards (Akromas Vengeance [seriously who wants to cycle this bomb?]) and add some Disenchants or Seal of Cleansing. You could even cut all Vengeances and try out Crucible of Worlds.
For reference here is my list:
Not so Parfait (Michael Schreiner)

It's obviously more based on old Parfait with the Tithes replacing Land Tax and the Argivian Finds saving destroyed Enchantments but it's definately a direction to consider for MWC.
I know it's a bit random without the Enlightened Tutors ready in hand but most of the cards are useful in more than one matchup so it's not all bad.
There are some slots that can easily be changed for your meta. Most involve the toolbox but the Pulses for example are only necessary main if your meta has many Slighvariants or is heavy aggro in general.
Another questionable spot is the one Mobilization but I prefer it to the forth Decree because once you've cast all Decrees they won't come back. This can be brought back thanks to Argivian Find and can create tokens over and over.
I havent figured out a good sideboard yet. Perhaps adding Scepters and trying for the Chant lock might be good, but I think it would be better to find something against other Controldecks like more recursion.

Hope that inspires a bit and we can come up with a really good MonoWhiteControl.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

04-21-2005, 08:58 PM

For God's sake, if you're going to question the results of someone that's spent dozens of hours playtesting a deck, play it once or twice first. The Landstill matchup doesn't need to be helped. I've played dozens of games against Landstill and lost perhaps twice. I've stalled out on two lands for six turns against Landstill and still beat the living shit out of them. They can't do much to you at all. They don't have any good counter targets- the only good cards that can be effectively countered are the Abeyances and the Swords, which cost as much or less than the cards doing the countering.

GRAH

04-21-2005, 10:22 PM

I think Disenchant merits maindeck spots, especially since your matchup against Belcher is mediocre at best. You've got all this maindeck ATS and Landstill hate, but nothing to deal with combo beyond the barely-helpful Abeyance and Gilded Light.

Null Rods in the board could help, too.

cheeseman

04-21-2005, 10:39 PM

I agree with GRAH on this one... Disenchant is an important maindeck inclusion. I would go so far as to say the full set of four, but whatever you like workds. You COULD take the Parfait route and add some Enlightened Tutors, in which case Seal of Cleansing would be a good bet. The Scepter/Chant lock would also be maindecked then.

"Here's my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free."
-Eminem

martyr

04-23-2005, 03:31 AM

Why, if you're running both Abeyance and Orim's Chant between board and main, and with all the cheap instants, are you not playing Isochron Scepter, at least in the sb? Siding them in against any form of aggro or combo is sick.

This deck is so clunky. I love it.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

04-25-2005, 01:41 PM

I was originally running six maindeck disenchant effects, but as time wore on I realized more and more just how few decks they're actually useful against that I don't already beat. Belcher is really about it, but Belcher sucks. The two aggro-combo decks I consider highly viable right now are Solidarity and Nausea, and the deck's running cards that give it a fighting chance against those decks.

Enlightened Tutor causes card disadvantage and causes me to run too many cards that I just don't want to draw most of the time. The cantrip-engine is simply much stronger, since it maintains card parity while generating greater card quality.

Game 2- I get off some Wraths, a Humility, a couple DoJ's... he draws every burn spell in his deck and I can't find a Renewed Faith, Rune, or Gilded Light. He also Swords a Genju that might or might not have made a difference. Both of us express mild surprise as I lose.

Game 3- We get called on five turns when I have a single Plains out. Yeah, that ain't going to happen.

Record 0-0-1

Round 2: Seamus/Brian O'Reilly, playing BigRedSligh

Game 1: He's playing the standard allotment of burns pells, Slith Firewalkers, Flames of the Blood Hand. All in all it's not a bad deck, really, considering Seamus is a developing player with a limited budget. Gilded Light counters a Fireblast, and then the lock comes down. What kind of asshole maindecks Rune of Protection: Red?

Game 2: See above, but with Genju.

Record: 1-0-1

Round 3: Seth (BoTS), playing ATS.

Round 1: He doesn't get Survival out until the fourth turn, but has a counter for my Wrath... and my Abeyance... and my Humility. And then the Mystic Snake lock comes down. He wins the game with three Tradewinds RFG, but damned if the last one doesn't want to kick my ass.

Round 2: "Hi, I'm Seth Perrin. I draw two Force of Wills and a Survival every game. Unstable mana base? What's that? I draw all the colors I need all the time. I'm Seth Perrin. Mulliganing? What's that. I always draw the cards I need off the top. I'm a professional player of magical cards. I'm Seth Perrin."

Record 1-1-1

Round 3: Jesse Hatfield (Mad Zur), playing UGRo

Game 1: Struggle for a while, but am not quite able to slow down the assault of thresholdy creatures enough. He finds his last Stifle at a crucial point to stop my getting Soldiery blockers, and I don't think I saw a Wing Shards all game. Le sigh.

Game 2: I lose basically because I didn't realize he played Counterspell. I hardcast a Decree for 3 when he's already used two Forces, only has two cards in hand, and I have untapped mana. Well, crap.

1-2-1

I'm much more dissapointed in the deck's performance on Saturday than at the April 16th Dual Land draft. Then the only decks I lost to were Solidarity, which is supposed to beat me, and that one terrible U/G Madness build running fricking Sword of Light and Shadow when I couldn't draw anything useful. I feel I should've, if not all of these matchups, at least all but one on average.

Double posts merged. Stampy is dead. -Zilla

cartman34

05-03-2005, 11:30 AM

I could imagine that Genju MD might be better than Rune in the maindeck spot because it is alsa good against red Decks and against many other Decks as well.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-03-2005, 04:58 PM

Rune is ten times better against Red strategies, and cycles is the main thing.

---------------

I've switched out Genjus in the side for Exalted Angels, which are working out much better. The faster clock and ability to swing without tapping out every turn are critical. It also allows me to play a neat guessing game with the opponent to see if they'll bring in 8 Disenchant effects while I side out Humilities for Angels.

---------------

Brief Tournament Report:

Round 1, mynameisscott playing Raffinity.

Game 1: Steamroll with Wraths, Humility, Vengeance, Humility, in that order.

Game 2: Brought in the six disenchants and Scrabbling Claws (still haven't found Furnaces that aren't being used by someone). More of the same. I did draw a ridiculous number of DoJ's this game, though, to be fair.

Record: 1-0-0

Round 2: Calosso, playing Vial Goblins.

Game 1: Did I mention I maindeck Rune of Protection: Red? I also manage to draw it every game it's useful. I cheat so savagely.

Round 3: Guy I can't remember the name of, playing Sui-Black with some weird spins and twists that make it suck substantially less than normal Sui-Black. Still, the deck can fight through disruption, and does just that. I win 2-1, after bringing in Angels, Auras, and Scrabbling Claws.

Record: 3-0-0

Round 4: finley, playing U/W Landstill.

Game 1: This deck just steamrolls Landstill pre-board. I don't even draw well (I end the game with all 3 Wraths in hand), and he gets out a Crucible (the only card in his deck I'm really scared of), and I even have to break a Standstill as I can't find a Decree, but I still win without ever really getting worried.

Game 2: Well, as Charles, who was watching the game, pointed out, the matchup gets much better post-board for Landstill. I also sided in too many Disenchant effects- I wind up sitting on four of them in hand with no targets while Conclave and Eternal Dragons kick my ass.

Game 3: We get called on five turns with about three lands in play each. Yeah, that's going to happen.

Record: 3-0-1

Top 8: ... finley, playing U/W Landstill (again)

Apparently we're playing best out of 5.

Game 1: See above.

Game 2: This time, I keep the Aura of Silence in the board, just bringing in Disenchants. Sided out Humility for Angels, and Wraths, Runes, and a Gilded Light for Disenchant/Scrabbling Claws. This time I draw a bit better. The game gets better for Landstill game 2-3, but I still think it's heavily in my favor. I run more Dragons/Decrees, and I can draw them faster. I'm running 2 less land overall, with 6 less disincluding the Steppes that I never want to drop, but I still miss far less landdrops than they do.

Have I mentioned DoJ is busted? It is. Have I mentioned Eternal Dragon is the best creature in the game? It is.

Top 4: Alix Hatfield (Obfuscate Freely), playing U/G/r o

Round 1: Abeyance + Wing Shards = gg

Round 2: Angels come in for Humility, Claws come in... even though they never really prove able to keep him from Threshold. Stupid cantripping nonsense. I even get two of them active at one point. Not that it matters, as I win anyway. You know who's deck has no way of dealing with Exalted Angel?

Top 2: Jesse Hatfield (Mad Zur), playing B/w Pox.

Oh, how I hate the Clan of Hatfield.

Game 1: Cantrips and land fetchers and Gilded Light and Renewed Faith fight through a steady stream of hand disruption and land destruction, even letting me build up to mana to drop a Vengeance. I think I end up winning because of a misplay on his part, at two life or something. Or maybe not. I'm not all too sure of Jesse's retroactive math skills.

Game 2: Angels and Claws and Auras come in. But this isn't a good thing;

IBA, sitting on one land: Draw, discard Akroma's Vengeance. Go.

IBA, still sitting on one land: Draw, discard Akroma's Vengeance. Go.

Yeah... gg, good chum.

Game 3: Opening hand is 4 Plains, a Steppe, a Renewed Faith, and an StP. I draw land for the next three draws. Against any other deck it would be terrible. As it is, I win without hassle. Pox scoops to it's opponent's all-land hands.

Yeah, so I win the tourny, getting out of it a Molder Slug, a Patron of the Akki, a fattie (MM) Disenchant, 5th Edition Stone Rain, and a slight dent in the massive tab I owe Pete.

Observations: Scrabbling Claws and Exalted Angel were my sideboard MVPs all day long. Most of the time I brought in Claws just because it's effectively cheaper to cycle than a Gilded Light or Rune. Angel will definitely stay in the board, but maybe I should maindeck Furnaces. It reminds me of old R/G Land-Destruction in Standard that was running Krosan Tusker in the side, and always brought them in Game 2-3, but didn't MD them because it didn't know what to drop. Renewed Faith is probably the closest card to cuttable, but the life gain saves my ass a lot of times.

I would like to thank most of all whoever likes me in Heaven enough not to pair me against Jesse Krieger, playing the hated Solidarity, and Steve Paleos for dragging Spat down to Blacksburg so I didn't have to deal with stupid Solitaire. And David Gearhart for just being too lazy to show up and play his own twisted creation. I definitely feel better about the deck after this week, but I recognize that it's partially due to the luck of Solidarity and Solitaire just not showing up (except for 1 deck) this time.

Triple posts merged. Stampy is dead. -Zilla

Peter_Rotten

05-17-2005, 12:32 PM

I'm sorry, but have I just noticed the super techy triple post? Did you think that you could escape my ever watchful eye just because you spaced them seven days apart? Mwuahahaha.

Anyway, something slightly more productive: I played Astroglide last Friday to a miserable 2/2 - losing to a Tog fluke and then to a Green fattie deck backed up with burn. Considering the similar natures of Astroglide and your MWC (I refuse to call it Rabd Wombat), I would hate to cut the main deck Faiths. They seemed to prove useful in just about all match-ups.

Main deck Furnaces would be a very interesting choice - I could have used them for the Tog fluke.

The stupid school proxy server/filter thingy won't let me on the first page of this thread, so right now I am unsure about how many Runes you run main, but they do seem to scream SB card to me. How do you feel about keeping them main - even though they cycle, I would hate to see any dead cards in my game one match up. Could the Furnaces replace the Runes? I think that maybe the graveyard hate would be more useful on more occasions than the Rune. Then again, this theory is highly meta-game dependant.

bigredmeanie

05-17-2005, 01:04 PM

Have you guys considered running Mishras Factory? Under a Humility, multiple Factories get real big. Seems very synergetic to me. Also, why no wasteland? This is a monocolor deck it could easily support a compliment of Wastelands.

AnwarA101

05-17-2005, 02:05 PM

Have you guys considered running Mishras Factory? Under a Humility, multiple Factories get real big. Seems very synergetic to me. Also, why no wasteland? This is a monocolor deck it could easily support a compliment of Wastelands.
Running wasteland would do very little for this deck. Wasteland is best with other disruption or with a way to utilize the tempo loss your opponent suffers from by not having a land available that turn. This deck has no other form of disruption that compares to what wasteland would do. And it really can't utilize the tempo that might be gained from your opponent not having a land in play.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-18-2005, 08:37 PM

The thing I really like about Rune, though, is it Just Wins. I don't have to worry about keeping off Goblin hordes with a mix of Wrath, Swords, and Shards, while putting decent pressure on. I can just drop Rune and Goblins/Sligh can't win anymore. If people stopped playing Mountains so much at the Frog, though, Furance would definitely replace Runes, but as is, I don't think it's the best thing to cut.

Yeah, Anwar pretty much sums up the problem with Wasteland. Wasteland is a tempo card, and trying to win via tempo with the Rabid Wombat is like melting the polar ice caps with a hair dryer. In example; Once, I got three turns in a row against Nausea after he fizzle with Meditates, and I still lost. Those extra three turns didn't matter in the slightest.

On non-basics; we've considered running Kjeldoran Outpost or Dust Bowl for a while now, but the main problem is that the deck is already only running 19 real land. That's a very low land count for a contron deck, and actually losing a land to Wasteland can be devastating for your game plan. Any non-basics would have to serve a vital function to deserve their slot, and none of the options I've gone over really do.

Alfred

05-20-2005, 01:36 PM

If Solidarity is such a problem, why not put Rule of Law in the sideboard? I understand that Solidarity can bounce it the turn before going off, but it works well as a speed bump, and when coupled with Guilded Light and Abeyance, might make the Solidarity matchup a bit more palitable.

AnwarA101

05-26-2005, 05:23 PM

This weekend I was completely destroyed by this deck. I was playing UR fish (I was playing NeoMike's list) and I thought that this might be a decent matchup, but it wasn't. I went turn 2 standstill (with a Mishra's Factory in play) and Jack almost laughed in my face. About 5 turns later, it was over he cycled DoJ and that was it. Game 2 wasn't much different.

Overall, I think this deck is pretty solid. It seems like it destroys aggro/survival based decks. It does pretty well against aggro control and ofcourse its worse matchup is combo specifically Solidarity. I don't disagree with the maindeck Rune because we have alot of Vial Goblins and Goblin Sligh running around at the Frog. Unfortunately, we also have at least 1-2 Solidarity players almost every week. I think its pretty hard to fix the Solidarity matchup, I think Jack is running the Abeyances, Chants, and Gilded Light (I think some of these are in the board). On a side note, I'm not sure LandStill has a very good matchup against this deck either, seems like the StandStill engine is terrible against a deck that cycles all day.

dontbiteitholmes

05-26-2005, 08:45 PM

What about chalice of the void sideboard? It puts the hurt on solidarity...

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-29-2005, 03:34 PM

Chalice of the Void is really savage. I quite liked it in Crazy 88's. The one real problem with it is that it's a permanent, and right now this deck has an advantage in which the only permanent it has that can be destroyed without losing card advantage is Humility. I'm willing to make the move for Humility, as it absolutely wrecks a lot of decks, but there's a low number of decks that get stomped by Chalice right now, although several get hurt.

So, important change; I switched out Phyrexian Furnaces into the main from the sideboard, replacing the Gilded Lights (which in turn go to the sideboard). It's been a positive change so far. Furnace is better against more decks, and it's smoother in the mana curve, giving you something to do turn 1 besides cycling Steppe or Swordsing something.

noobslayer

05-30-2005, 09:38 PM

Wow... this deck is a beast. I was testing it against my welder deck; I think Iím going to have to start cutting slots for bounce and removal. I lost as soon as Humility hit the table. And that means I lost quite a bit with an average of a turn three Humility. I dropped the Runes, as to my knowledge, red isn't as prodominant in my meta. Hereís the build I was running.

First off, has been Ancient Tomb been considered for the deck? It's rather powerful, as it does allow a first-turn Dragoncycle for land, or just consistent cycling. I understand metagame causes may be forcing you to play as many thigns that don't get stomped on by Mountain.dec, but in a random metagame, would you suggest playing it?

Secondly, I've noticed that this deck, in its current incarnation, seems to pack it in to combo, at least game one. Your deck doesn't seem to need to cast too many spells in a turn. Is some maindeck Rule of Law an option for dealing with the inevitable Combo matchup? You do have Enlighteneds making it a consistent turn 3, or, with the addition of Ancient Tombs, consistent turn 2.

Just some thoughts.
-Slay

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-31-2005, 09:34 PM

Two things;

1) noobslayer; You're running Fluctuator, with only six cards that are affected by it. Huh?

2) Re, both your decklist and Slay's suggestion; firstly, I am not myself running Enlightened Tutor. I would only have three targets for it maindeck, of which Rune is not that often amazing, and Furnace is almost never worthwhile to tutor for at the loss of card advantage. I think you're both suffering from a misunderstanding of the deck. While part of the goodness of the deck is it's massive hate-on for creatures, which noobslayer's list retains, the actual innovative part that moves it from being any other parfait is the cycling engine. As, I believe it was Bob pointed out at Portsmouth, the deck doesn't just have a draw engine; the deck is a draw engine. Cycling reaches critical mass in my build; You're generally digging two cards a turn, one from drawing and one from cycling. Because about half your deck cycles, that means you're probably going to hit another cycling card, which means digging another two cards next turn, and on and on. While this form of card advantage seems clumsy compared to Enlightened Tutor, the Tutor option was explored by Diablos in the form of his deck, Holy Redux, which was very similar to what you two are talking about moving the deck to. But the deck wasn't that efficent in the long term. Rabid Wombat is an attempt to fix the weaknesses; it provides card advantage, and it's running a wide array of hosers that aren't Enchantments or Artifacts. It's got more resilency against removal and disruption, and plays better against control.

RE, combo; While this would change in the right metagame, I don't feel that there's enough combo right now to warrant weakening the rest of the deck's matchups by maindecking narrow answers like Rule of Law, although it's certainly a very viable sideboard option. I personally prefer Orim's Chant in the sideboard, as it allows redundancy with Abeyance and Gilded Light. I've simply found the Instant-speed answers better as they're reactionary, rather than preemptive. Orim's Chant/Gilded Light/Abeyance are often instant speed, White Lava Axes against Nausea, for instance.

Of course, my area is mostly Storm-combo. If I were in an area with a lot of Belcher, or even Darwin's Revenge or something of the like, Rule of Law would probably be in the sideboard.

noobslayer

06-01-2005, 06:24 AM

Yes after posting I noticed that. I was considering cutting some things for more cycle. It just comes down to what, I can't cut Pulses for Renewed Faith, because Pulse owns. And nothing else that cycles, other than dragons and DoJ, seems all that important right now. I'm also going to move Angels to the board; so that means Fluctuator is probably going to get cut.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-01-2005, 05:24 PM

Yes after posting I noticed that. I was considering cutting some things for more cycle. It just comes down to what, I can't cut Pulses for Renewed Faith, because Pulse owns. And nothing else that cycles, other than dragons and DoJ, seems all that important right now. I'm also going to move Angels to the board; so that means Fluctuator is probably going to get cut.
Another reason I don't run Fluctuator, btw, is that two cards that don't actually have cycling, Phyrexian Furnace and Abeyance, are two of the strongest cantrippers in the deck.

I've been trying a new technique against Solidarity that has yielded slightly better results. Once I get a clock on the board games 2-3, either Angel or a cluster of Soldiers, and once you start getting your opponent's life total down (he'll be holding off if he's a good player until he can fight around the Abeyances/Gilded Lights/Chants), start using the Time Walk spells during your upkeep. You should hopefully find at least three, and this strategy wants to potentially yield you the few turns you need to seal the game.

Alfred

06-01-2005, 06:36 PM

Can't they just go off/cast their set-up spell in response to your abeyance or orim's chant? Wouldn't a more sound strategy be to get a clock on the board and have 2 Gaea's Blessings in the deck? Yes I know that they can just Brain Freeze you again and then make you draw a card via Words of Wisdom, but this is much harder to accomplish, perhaps buying the turn that you need to get that extra damage in. Just putting a thought forward.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-01-2005, 07:08 PM

No. You do it on your upkeep, when their Resets don't work, nearly eliminating the option of going off for them. And two Gaea's blessing is especially terrible in a deck that can never cast them.

cartman34

06-04-2005, 11:19 AM

I replaced Humility and some other Cards and added 4 Astral Slide and 4 Solemn and I can tell you that the Aggro Machtup is still highly in your favor.Astral Slide combined with Solemn is a hell good engine and Slide makes all your Cycle cards even better..And it also has great interaction with Exalted Angel.I think that Astral Slide is better than Humility because Humility also has its disadvantages(I want to clear the board and win with 5/5 flyers or I just want to hardcast Decree quite often..).

Just my 2 cents.. :Slay:

Maybe Humility is better against Survival but I think that the survival machtup is already favorable and in most other machtups I think that slide is better and thats why I run Humility in my sideboard.

Zilla

06-04-2005, 03:41 PM

Moved to Open Forum. The deck is optimized, and has placed well at tournaments. It may be slower than your mom, but it excels at screwing your opponents... also like your mom. -Zilla

noobslayer

06-04-2005, 04:48 PM

After making some changes, like adding three phyrexian furnace, and stuff like abeyance, I got to test the belcher match-up. The thicker amounts of draw really helped put the hurt on belcher. I also got to test aginst goblins.

Belcher-
Pre-Board: 60%/40%
Post-Board: 70%/30%

I only had to disrupt their flow long enough to drop aura of silence. And when they had one or two other sources and a couple of birds of paradise, humility spelled game. Argivian find was handy when you had to recur seal of cleansing

Vial Goblins (I'm not maindecking any Runes, so your percentages may be better):
Pre-Board: 70%/30%
Post-Board: Same

Wow. I've never been happier to have a deck with so much creature hate. Wing Shards is an MVP. The match-up didn't seem to change much after boarding; their deck may be just too aggressive.

I've also been testing Mishra's Factory and in a different build Extraplanar Lens. Both are good in testing, but not playable together. Factories help against landstill and are basically a 0cc creature. Lens gets you hefty advantage when mobilization is on the table. Both are good, I just need to decide which one merits more play overall.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-07-2005, 11:55 PM

Truth to Extraplanar Lens being good in Mono-White. It was on Crazy 88's, but my current build is designed to be minimally disruptible; hence I haven't tried any non-basics in land slots, or Lens, which can be Disenchanted. I'd be interested in seeing what lists you were testing out for it. I'm happy with the deck right now, and I feel that it's powerful enough a springboard to begin experimenting with tweaks. The Extraplanar Lens build might be identical with a design incorporating Tutor. That would require upping the basic land count a bit and decreasing the overall number of cantrippers, but might be doable. I think the deck could conceivably work with as low as 18-20 cycling cards. Wanna post a current list of what your build looks like, noobslayer?

Evil Roopey

06-07-2005, 11:59 PM

I was drunk, sorry about that.

Roop

noobslayer

06-08-2005, 05:26 PM

Sorry about the delay.

I've kind of taken my sights off my welder deck for this. I just really enjoy it so much. Since my last deck list I've heavily shifted back to the original build, although there are likely to be some interesting differences. Right now Iím effectively running 22 draw spells, and that still feels a little light.

To sum the deck up, it was hardly Rabid Wombat anymore. The draw had slowed to a crawl, and I felt the E-Tutors only strengthened games two and three. While Lens basically made Mobilization a game winning drop, I had to stall to even get it to my hand. Too many hiccups cost me too many games. The creature removal also felt a little thick at times, and three Chrome Mox was too heavy.

Thereís a fourth Humility because I had an open spot and couldnít find anything else, and it usually spells game when it hits. As far as the fetches go, I think thatís about the safest number I can run without limiting the usefulness of Dragon. Vengeance has saved me once so far: against a double Sterling Grove. Even though red hasnít been as heavy in my area, the Runes still prove heavily useful to cycle. Furnace also proves to be really good against quite a bit of decks Iíve been facing; hence its count at three. My board needs a little help right now, itís tuned against Survival; thatís about it.

:Slay: (haha!)

Silverdragon

06-08-2005, 06:15 PM

So now I have tested this deck for several days especially against Landstill in an attempt to prove some friends that this deck has at least a 50% chance against it.
Against the U/R Version this is mostly true (I'd even say it is slightly in favor of Wombat) but against the version with white I had some problems because it seemed as if I couldn't cast my threads fast enough. Even though I had seen more of my deck (I was often down to 31 cards when they still had about 39 cards left) everytime I attempted to put the pressure on they had the Wrath/Vengeance before the soldiers could kill and the Swords before the Dragon could finish them.
I'm 99% sure I play the matchup right and I don't think this is due to bad topdecks (played about 20 games without having to mulligan and even almost won one game where I was manascrewed the first three turns).
So now my question is what can be done to further improve the Landstill matchup? The main problem is, that they are not done after you deal with all their manlands because if you have cycled too much they can just deck you. (Yes this happend to me several times :( )

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-08-2005, 07:05 PM

So now I have tested this deck for several days especially against Landstill in an attempt to prove some friends that this deck has at least a 50% chance against it.
Against the U/R Version this is mostly true (I'd even say it is slightly in favor of Wombat) but against the version with white I had some problems because it seemed as if I couldn't cast my threads fast enough. Even though I had seen more of my deck (I was often down to 31 cards when they still had about 39 cards left) everytime I attempted to put the pressure on they had the Wrath/Vengeance before the soldiers could kill and the Swords before the Dragon could finish them.
I'm 99% sure I play the matchup right and I don't think this is due to bad topdecks (played about 20 games without having to mulligan and even almost won one game where I was manascrewed the first three turns).
So now my question is what can be done to further improve the Landstill matchup? The main problem is, that they are not done after you deal with all their manlands because if you have cycled too much they can just deck you. (Yes this happend to me several times :( )
I assume you're familiar with the classic Flores article, "Who's the Beatdown?", so I'm going to try to analyze this in the context of the strategies talked about therein.

As Mike Flores went over, one of the main reasons people lose matchups is because they misunderstand what role they should take. However, it's very easy with Rabid Wombat: You're the Control. That's it. There will never, ever, ever be a deck against which you try to take the aggro role. It makes identifying strategies really easy. And that's what it sounds like to me you tried to do. Generally in my games againd Landstill, I don't try to cast Eternal Dragon until I have at least 14-15 Plains in play. I don't try to cycle any DoJ's past the first for less than lethal. If I need two turns to kill with my soldiers, I'll reserve Abeyances to prevent them from being able to Wrath/Vengeance.

I suggest re-testing the U/W matchup. If you play the control route, and leave them squirming until you can end of turn cycle DoJ for lethal, you'll win 80% of your games. There's no need to hurry against them, that's just giving them an opportunity to live. The longer the game goes on, the smaller their chances of winning becomes. Trust me when I say I've tested this matchup extensively; even games when I was sure I was going to lose because of landstall, mana screw, card disadvantage, whatever, I always ended up pulling through because of the deck's inevitability, and Landstill's general inability to effectively and safely speed up the game.

I've also never, ever decked against them. On the few occasions I've lost it was generally inability to draw removal, or because they out DoJ'd me post sideboard (but since you're usually running twice as many DoJs as they have in their sideboards and drop lands more consistently, this should be highly irregular).

Silverdragon

06-09-2005, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the advise IBA. I have looked at my notes again and tested some more and I was able to spot some games where I went beatdown to fast. I also spotted some games where I just didn't draw enough removal (so bad topdecks do happen) and had to cycle Decree to kill the incoming Factories.
So now I eliminated these games from the statistics and (what a surprise) my matchup is indeed positive :)

Stupid me for playing every deck like Stompy...

Raddley

06-20-2005, 03:01 AM

What do you think about using that new white enchantment from Saviors (I think it is called Reverence) with Humility?

Could you give us some more info please? Maybe a link or card description?

Peter_Rotten

SpatulaOfTheAges

06-20-2005, 04:09 PM

2WW

Enchantment

Creatures with power 2 or less can't attack you.

That would be strictly worse than Moat.

Except against Fish.

Alfred

06-20-2005, 08:29 PM

If you want to make a semi-hard lock, why not just go with Orim's Prayer, because it costs one less. I really don't think this deck needs a hard lock at all though, because it has a plethora of creature removal anyway, humility just stops problem creatures from doing anything.

EDIT: BTW, it isn't strictly worse than moat at all, because under humility, it wouldn't affect your creatures from attacking.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-20-2005, 08:34 PM

Quoted for truth. Humility isn't there because the deck needs to deal with attackers desperately, it's there to stop silly things like Tradewind Rider, Siege-Gang Commander, and Sundering Titan.

I'm experimenting right now with builds trying to incoporate 2-3 Enlightened Tutor and a small selection of non-Humility targets, and thinking about options has reminded me of my long-standing love for Mind Stone. I'm thinking about trying to fit four of the card in, as it allows for third turn Humility/Wrath of God, which can lock out a lot of earlier games, making it feasible to beat Vial-Goblins and Raffinity god-hands without Swords. The ability to cycle in the late game seems to make it a natural fit for the deck.

Alfred

06-21-2005, 03:57 PM

I have a cool idea to help you out against the Solidarity matchup. You could put:

4x Cranial Extraction
1x Scrubland

into your sideboard. Eternal Dragon can find the scrubland, and Orim's Chant/Abeyance can protect the extraction from being forced. Then name High Tide, or Brain Freeze (I don't think that the current solidarity lists are running cunning wish). This will either win you the game (in the case of BF) or it will severely set them back, because comboing without High Tide is difficult at best.

EDIT: Also, why not name this scourge.dec, because you are running 4 different cards from the same set, 2 of which are the most important cards in the deck.

noobslayer

06-21-2005, 04:02 PM

I think if black were to be splashed for anything, it be duress, and cabal therapy (soldiers do more than just beat). Although I think black may weaken the deck overall. Combo is hard enough to deal with. Then again, from playing with this deck, I think it is very reliant on what your metagame looks like, so if combo is relevant, don't prepare for it.

In the mean time, I'm going to start testing tithes. Any ideas on this?

Alfred

06-21-2005, 04:04 PM

Duress won't win you the game against solidarity, it will just slow them down a bit, because they WILL draw another copy of the card you duressed away. Cranial Extraction, on the other hand would be like a death blow, either ending the game right there, or making it extremely difficult for them to combo off after it is cast. Also, black would not be in the maindeck, it would be in the sideboard. I think that 5 SB spots is worth turning a 0% matchup into something probably like a 30% one.

In the mean time, I'm going to start testing tithes. Any ideas on this?
I know I suggested it to IBA while we were testing and he threatened to come to my house and fuck my dog or something. I'll let him explain why he thinks it's a bad choice. I don't remember his exact reasoning, but it seemed to make sense at the time.

@Cranial Extraction:

Unless you resolve more than 1, it's not game over for them. They have FoW to stop it when you cast it, and if it does resolve, they can Cunning Wish for the 4th Brain Freeze they've got in their board as an alternate win. Furthermore, 1 Scrubland and 2 Dragons to search for it makes for 3 black sources total. Even with the draw power in the deck, 3 ways to cast Extraction is not nearly enough to be consistent. Lastly, the deck packs no mana accelleration, meaning that the very earliest you can cast Extraction is turn 4. There's an extremely high likelihood they can simply win in response to your casting it. In short, Extraction sucks for this deck.

Alfred

06-21-2005, 04:25 PM

#1. I was under the impression that this deck ran 4 Eternal Dragons, and a lot of cyclers. IBA says that you are drawing 2 cards a turn, meaning that finding a scrubland before turn 4 is pretty likely.

#2. In the solidarity matchup you have 3-4 Orim's Chants and 3-4 Abeyance, meaning that you can use these during your upkeep to stall the solidarity player, until you hit 5 mana, at which point you can chant, then Extract.

#3. Currently, according to IBA, Rabid Wombat's gameplan is roll over and die, (I'm simplifying, but it's a terrible matchup to be sure). Cranial Extraction was something that lept into my mind as a way of crippling a Solidarity player by naming High Tide. Without High Tide, it becomes VERY hard to combo off.

#4. You may very well be right about Cranial Extraction, but it might be a pretty good way of dealing with solidarity. I think it should be tested.

lynxcat

06-21-2005, 05:31 PM

In the mean time, I'm going to start testing tithes. Any ideas on this?
I know I suggested it to IBA while we were testing and he threatened to come to my house and fuck my dog or something. I'll let him explain why he thinks it's a bad choice. I don't remember his exact reasoning, but it seemed to make sense at the time.

@Cranial Extraction:

Unless you resolve more than 1, it's not game over for them. They have FoW to stop it when you cast it, and if it does resolve, they can Cunning Wish for the 4th Brain Freeze they've got in their board as an alternate win. Furthermore, 1 Scrubland and 2 Dragons to search for it makes for 3 black sources total. Even with the draw power in the deck, 3 ways to cast Extraction is not nearly enough to be consistent. Lastly, the deck packs no mana accelleration, meaning that the very earliest you can cast Extraction is turn 4. There's an extremely high likelihood they can simply win in response to your casting it. In short, Extraction sucks for this deck.
Tithe seems terrible because it will almost never net you any card advantage. You hit your land drops more consistently than any deck out there, so it's no different than drawing a Plains in the mid-late game. The only time it'd net you a card is at the end of an opponent's turn 1-3 when you're on the draw. That doesn't seem like a good use of a card slot, particularly since you could just add more Eternal Dragons and do almost the same thing.

Slay

06-21-2005, 05:47 PM

The problem against Solidarity is that you have no clock. You can cast all the spells you want, but it means nothing unless they're getting significantly damaged. Solidarity can simply build up the 'God hand' while you struggle to find all your lands for a really big Decree. If you extract something, they'll probably Wish for it, and go off with one copy of it. And since they have all the time in the world, they can go up to 8-10 land where a reset gets them 6 mana and can win the game like that. If you want to improve the matchup to a really winnable nature, you have to have much more threats. If you do, the deck becomes weaker against all other matchups. It's a bad idea. I would rather put in something like Armageddon to fight Solidarity, as you have much more land than them.
-Slay

Alfred

06-21-2005, 06:02 PM

Maybe instead of Extractions, you could SB boil with the same strategy. That would take the wind right out of their sails, plus it would also be useful against other control decks. It would be much more effective than armageddon, leaving all your lands intact, while destroying all of theirs (fetches aside). Plus it's an instant, so you could chant/abeyance on their turn, and boil afterward. This would take away the possibility of them going off in response. Also, you don't even need to choke up 5 SB spots if you just throw the one Plateau in the maindeck, taking out one plains.

noobslayer

06-21-2005, 08:29 PM

These reason I consider tithe though has two parts.

1) First off, I'm running x3 Chrome Moxen. With tithes the count would rise to four, and fetches, which I'm using 3 of, would become obsolete. This nets me a chance to utilize a chrome mox late game without losing card advantage.

2) With all the dig power in the deck, I don't like praying for an answer and pulling a land. Tithe seems to remedy that.

I probably said something stupid in there so... yea

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-21-2005, 10:04 PM

Since the purpose of any splash should be to supplement the existing Solidarity hate, not rely on it to force a spell through, the hate worth splashing for should be able to come down before Solidarity can conveivably win, or be an instant. In this I agree with the choice of Red, which has Pyrostatic Pillar and Boil, if a splash is to be added at all. However, the Red splash is tedious. Keeping it just to the sideboard is taking up too many slots to be worth it. Maindecking Plateaus exposes you to Wasteland, and an extensive maindeck shift to incorporate Red ala Rifter without the Rifts seems to make the deck stabilize too slowly. I'm not a fan of the splash.

Tithe is terrible because it's a land that costs you mana. 19 real land is already an incredibly low land count for a control deck, and cutting it any lower for a land that can be countered and might once in a while net card advantage in the form of another plains is worthless. It's already not terribly uncommon to lose a game because you needed that Wrath/Wing Shards/Humility, and your 3rd/4th land was a Steppe. Tithe has the same prolem, but without the ability to fix late game mana flood. However, if I were to run Tithe, I would definitely add Fetchlands, as they provide a way to make Tithe work if I have as many lands as my opponent.

Tithe's land thinning is incredibly small, btw. The entire concept of land-thinning was quickly cliched and beaten to death by people that wanted to sound tech but didn't want to do the actual math.

Incidentally, the rhetoric about the deck dying to Solidarity has gone a little too far. It's an unfavorable matchup, but it's not at all unwinnable. Post board I'll side out Wing Shards, Humility, and Wrath of God and bring in Orim's Chant, Gilded Light, and Exalted Angel for a faster clock. If you get out an Angel or a DoJ for 3 or more soldiers, you can try to race them with a handful of Chant effects.

Note that I could've easily deleted the expansion info, but I didn't because I hate Godzilla.

Slay

06-23-2005, 10:23 AM

Are you sure about the MD Phyrexian Furnaces? What matchups do they improve that you don't already have a good game against? I'd much rather see this slot be something like Aura of Silence or some other all-purpose hate.

Also, not to tread on old woulds, but are Wing Shards redundant? If you could theoreticall figure out a way to consistently power out turn 3 Humilities/Wraths, say by using Mind Stone or Talisman or Ancient Tomb, would you need Wing Shards?

Another thing, why the cut from 4 Humilities? As an aggro combo player, they're the thing that I least like to see. Plus they prevent any kind of Eternal Witness nonsense.

And lastly, an old suggestion but have you considered Ancient Tombs MD?
-Slay

noobslayer

06-23-2005, 10:58 AM

IMO, the MD Tombs would really only help accelerate DoJ. But that usually isn't much of a problem.

The main deck furnaces are surprisingly useful against so many decks out there. Even if you find them dead in a match, they can cantrip game one, and be boarded game two (I'm not looking for a game three).

Wing Shards is too good to be cut. Against aggro decks it has proven to be a one sided cheaper wrath. That should mean enough. Even so, it can be used against huge power attackers when Swords may provide too much of an advantage (although my build is using Pulse of the Fields, so the advantage negates itself).

-4 Renewed Faith (The draw sacrificed by this is well worth it)
+2 Pulse of the Fields (Amazing at stabilizing and fixing a poor board position, also tech with Swords)
+2 Mobilization (For some reason I can never draw enough DoJís; this fixes that problem)

I dropped the fetches and the moxen, the acceleration proved to grab at my resources too much, as well as proving unnecessary.

martyr

06-27-2005, 04:06 PM

Why not play Staff of Domination if you're going to test an artifact card-drawer? It's cheaper and it has secondary and tertiary uses.

The Professional N00b

06-27-2005, 05:57 PM

Its funny that this deck tends to scoop it up to Flashfires. There is no card in this deck that stops the card and against a deck like RGSA if they drop it turn four it will almost always cause enough tempo loss to smash your face in.

Zilla

06-28-2005, 12:51 AM

Its funny that this deck tends to scoop it up to Flashfires.
It's also sort of funny that no one plays Flashfires. It's true that it's savage anti-Wombat tech, but seriously, how many people are actually going to make room for 4 narrow hate cards that are only truly powerful against a single deck in the format played currently by a small handful of players? This is an issue to consider if Wombat gains popularity (and given the numbers it puts up against most matchups it should), but as it stands it's a rather trivial concern.

SpatulaOfTheAges

06-28-2005, 01:42 AM

And if it does become an issue, there are many answers available; Crucible, Sacred Ground, Planar Rebirth(oh snap!) and Karmic Justice.

NovemberLima

06-28-2005, 12:14 PM

And if it does become an issue, there are many answers available; Crucible, Sacred Ground, Planar Rebirth(oh snap!) and Karmic Justice.

Versus early Flashfires:
Crucible and Justice suck here. Flashfires will keep you off Wrath mana for 4 turns with Crucible, and Justice will only Geddon your opponent (while he beats your head in with red or green men) - if he doesn't already punish you right after you tap out, both Piledriver with Warchief / Vial and Shivan Wurm / Deranged Hermit come to mind.
Planar Birth will let you have Wrath mana after 3 turns (barring artifact mana), which is still horrible.
Only Sacred Ground is good here, really.

Versus late Flashfires:
Crucible is decent here, allowing you to recover while you are probably still in control.
Karmic Justice and Sacred Ground will be the same here, both will make your opponent simply not cast their ''topdecked'' Flashfires.
Planar Birth shines here, you just plop down land for 2 turns, then you're back to where you started (probably total control of the game).

My alternative would be Second Sunrise. Why?
Versus early Flashfires, you just trade your Sunrise against his Flashfires. You still have mana to deal with attackers, and your Wing Shards will have at least Storm 2.
Versus late Flashfires, Second Sunrise produces mana equal to your number of plains minus 3.

Peter_Rotten

06-28-2005, 12:47 PM

I want to quickly point out that although Flashfires probably won't see much play, Armageddon will. It's in the SB of a few minor decks and usually in the board of Angel Stompy. MWC needs its lands and it needs a ton of them. Massive LD like Geddon will be an issue for MWC.

kirdape3

06-28-2005, 05:17 PM

So board Sacred Ground and make Armageddon into Goggles.

MY EYES! ZE GOGGLES! ZHEY DO NOTHING!

The problem is that it's only really useful versus that - my first actual thought was to splash blue for Spectral Shift and nail someone, which gives you other neat board options like Meddling Mage.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-29-2005, 01:30 AM

Armageddon isn't actually all that scary. First of all, it's usually fairly easy to identify a deck that will have it in it's sideboard, and then fairly easy to play around. The problem for your opponent is that Armageddon really only works with a threat to back it up; I've been Armageddoned before and then gone on to hardcast Eternal Dragons while my opponents was still trying to get a decent clock going, because this deck can still clear away creatures. Besides keeping threats off the board and lands in hand, you can also build up enough mana, in anticipation of an Armageddon, to DoJ in response, usually for teh win.

Flashfires is much harder, since it's one sided and allows them to continue dropping threats. Keeping back lands still works; if Wombat becomes popular enough that Flashfires actually becomes a sideboard issue, I think the best option is to start plugging some non-basics into the deck. I've already been considering the 1x Karakas, and some Factories or some such might become useful maindeck options. If you think you're going to see Flashfires, you should also start dropping those Steppes.

On sideboard options, I'm inclined to go with Karmic Justice. I've thought about Second Sunrise, but I'm disinclined to worry all the time about keeping the mana open for it.

noobslayer

07-06-2005, 04:20 PM

I was looking at shining shoal today to further hose aggro decks. On the mana curve it seems to fit well. Pitching a dragon against gobs is like a heavy nut shot on turn three. Enough to buy time for a wrath.

lynxcat

08-09-2005, 03:28 PM

Does anyone have any thoughts on the ATS matchup? I've been playing this deck for a couple weeks due to its strong matchups with Landstill and Vial Goblins, but I've been having a hell of a time beating ATS in testing. It hasn't seen much play lately in our meta, but I imagine it'll come back around. In 15 games of testing I've managed to win 6 (running IBA's most current list). These were all the games where I could get Humility to resolve.

My strategy has been simply to stall with StP and Wrath while digging/aggressively mulliganing for Humility. This works sometimes, but they have more counters than we have Humilities. ATS is much different than the other Survival decks in that it can just lock you up without ever attacking. Wing Shards and Renewed Faith, for example, are both strong cards against RGSA but are nearly dead against a smart ATS player. An active Tradewind is a deathblow to Rabid Wombat, at least in my experience.

Does anyone have any advice to offer on card choices/gameplay to beat ATS? I think Disenchant MD would help, but I haven't gotten to test it yet.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-09-2005, 04:15 PM

I've also had trouble with ATS. The counters for your Humility really are a pain in the ass. It's a surprisingly tough matchup. Yet I don't think I can really justify running maindeck cards for the matchup, as almost no one seems to play the deck anymore. For sideboard I sugest bringing in Illumination and Orim's Chant (to force through Humility).

On other news I've been seriously considering fitting in Deserts, both to create more creature control/synergy with Humility, and to have non-Flashfirable lands. Too that end I'd probably cut

-4 Renewed Faith
-3 Plains

+4 Desert
+1 Phyrexian Furnace
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Wing Shards

The change also meant to reflect the increases in decks like Gro and Goblins lately.

2) This is actually a pet deck of mine, because white control has always been a favourite. This is probably going to sound REALLY stupid, so let me just put my flame retardant jacket on.... Golden Wish. I have actually tried this as a 2 of in this deck, and it has actually worked out REALLY well for me, because at that stage in the game, you can get Solitary Confinement out of the board as well as other options. Solitary + E. Dragon = Game against a lot of decks. You can also fetch Reverance to finish the Humility Lock, Extraplanar Lens (a personal fav), Mindslaver, O. Stone or Sacred Mesa for a win condition. Try it out :p

noobslayer

08-10-2005, 09:54 AM

To me that really detracts from the redundancy the deck relies on; the golden wish board that is. I would stick with the way it is, as it offers you to be able to board a greater number of cards that can be used to combat the offense. In your situation if someone nails what you wished for, you're out two cards. However, if your running multiple in your board with no wishes, you have a much higher threat density game two.

IBA:

I think the inclusion of Desert is quite interesting, as well as janky. Although I think four is too high. Three is probably a better number, as this deck draws incredibly fast, and I usually never have much trouble finding the single Kjeldoran Outpost I run.

Sacred Mesa is good, but another to consider which I run as a two of is Mobilization. I personally prefer it, because with a Humility on the table, I think vigilance is better at that rate. Mostly because you simultaneously remain on the offensive and defensive. Having Sacred Mesa makes you commit, although having an activation cost one cheaper helps.

blacklotus3636

08-12-2005, 02:10 PM

I know it's stupid to mention anything moreabout the solidarity matchup seeing as how if I were playing the deck I'd be fine with just saying I lose to solidarity but anyway what about a single darksteel collossus in the deck so they can never deck you

Nightmare

08-12-2005, 02:27 PM

They can still deck you. The reshuffle is a replacement effect, so they have time to respond to it. They either go off in response, or Stroke you for a billion.

Jander78

08-12-2005, 02:52 PM

They can still deck you. The reshuffle is a replacement effect, so they have time to respond to it. They either go off in response, or Stroke you for a billion.
Actually.......the replacement effects have nothing that can be responded to. It is shuffled into the library instead of ever hitting the graveyard. I don't really see what adding a single Colossus would buy you as you would have 1 turn left and you would draw a Colossus, or like Mr. Nightmare said, they can just use a draw card to make you lose after the fact regardless.

Slayerheadx213

08-19-2005, 02:07 PM

Has Drifting Meadow (the Cycling land for two colorless mana from Urza's Saga) been considered here? I guess it helps against those Flashfires but more importantly it serves as more Secluded Steppes in case of mana floods.

Destavi

08-21-2005, 02:56 PM

It seems like the anti Flashfires sentiment is going too far. You guys should be more worried about Crucible + Waste. Flashfires is far less common than Crucible + Waste and this deck's land should reflect that. Also of note, the versions of R/G Survival that play Burning Wish can wish for Flashfires out of the board, something to keep in mind.

kirdape3

08-21-2005, 08:20 PM

This deck has Akroma's Vengeance to deal with Crucibles. Having lost games to Flashfires both when this was a strong choice for Standard and in Legacy, I'm telling you that Flashfires is a lot worse for you.

That being said, this deck can go a lot of ways with it's mana to minimize Flashfires. Personally, I've gone with a 17 Plains, 3 Factory, 4 Steppe configuration. Factory gives you somewhat of a clock against Tide (especially postboard when you're bashing them with all your Time Walks) and 17 Plains gives you mana on demand.

bigbear102

08-22-2005, 02:44 PM

I played this deck at a Legacy event at GenCon this weekend, I have to say I love it. I don't know if you know this IBA, but it was actually your cards I was using. I do love the deck, but I think if I build it I will add E. Tutor and lots of enchantments in the board. Deep6er was saying how Arcane Lab was his least favorite blue card, so lets play the white one in here. My list would be something like this:

While playing the original build I kept thinking "Solitary Confinement would be a Hard Lock here" so I want to play it, G1 against goblins, burn, elves, random aggro.

I beleive that the E. Tutor will make this deck more stable against its bad matchups, i.e. Solidarity.

NovemberLima

08-24-2005, 12:58 PM

I played 5-1 with an E-Tutor variant about 2 monaths ago, in what was sadly the biggest German Legacy tournament to date :(

I really wanted to type up a report, but never really got around to it, and not have no notes to work on anymore (not even the decklist).
The gist of that report, however, would have been that E-Tutor seems impossible to get to work unless you majorly restructure the deck. Agreed, the utility is great, but the card disadvantage really hurts, and between E-Tutor and targets, you lose a lot of cycling slots, which basically means kissing your consistency good-bye.

Relating the consistency, how did 21 lands with so few cycling cards work out for you? I found every turn that I didn't lay down a land to be a lost turn, and getting to 7 mana (=Eternal Dragon recursion & plainscycling each turn) was my #1 goal.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-26-2005, 05:04 PM

Yeah, I lost your PMs unfortunately, Lima, due to the Source having a retarded messenger system. But I agree on Enlightened Tutor being the sucks. I think Tutoring in general is really less desirable in a format that doesn't already force you to play broken 1-ofs than just running 3-4 of the damned card. At least when said tutoring either costs a lot or a card.

Geet

09-09-2005, 02:58 PM

If you are running Phyrexian Furnace, I would suggest swapping 1 or 2 of them out for Scrabbling Claws, just because of the occasional Pithing Needle. Btw, what do you guys think of running Pithing Needle in this build?

Also, I have removed Gilded Light altogether. There's never a matchup where I really want to bring it in. Solidarity will just cast another Brain Freeze in response or just force it. I have found Chalice to be the best hoser for Solidarity, along with chant/abeyance. I would like to point out though, that True Believer + Chalice is pretty brutal, since they actually have to use up 2 Wishes to get rid of it. I just dont want to devote that much sb to the matchup.

Some of you have been having trouble with ATS, but I don't see how. I run maindeck Humility, Wrath, Vengeance, and Furnace. I have only lost once to ATS, and that was just a fluke.

Also, 6 Disenchant effects are too much for the sb. I run 3 disenchant, 3 null rod, because there's a lot of affinity around here. For a normal meta, I might run 4 disenchants, but no more.

I have tried running various non-basics, and I have come to the conclusion that any benefit isn't worth the drawback of being wasted. This deck doesn't really want to miss a land drop, well, ever in the entire game. Desert just isn't worth it.

I have found LD and solidarity to be this decks only weakness, and LD is rarely played.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-11-2005, 09:57 AM

I'm thinking about just running Second Sunrise in the sideboard; it fights Armageddon/Flashfires, and it can also bring back a Humility that got Naturalized (but not one that got Seal of Cleansinged :( )

On ATS: It should be pointed out that no one would lend me Furnaces, so my troubles with ATS all came when I was running Gilded Light in that slot. Obviously with Furnace, the matchup gets much better.

This was the version I placed second with at the Grand Prix Trial yesterday;

I was debating the ratios of Runes and Furnaces to run beforehand, and then someone from the Frog sat down next to me and mentioned how much Burn/Gro they saw running around, so I just upped both to a 4x. I only got to play against a Red deck once, though :( But I got the Rune out both games against him, and I never really missed the maindecked Akroma's Vengeance much- I was mostly playing against Landstill where I cared about Disenchant effects, and Phyrexian Furnace answers Crucible pretty well anyway.

Gerry Thompson

09-12-2005, 03:23 AM

Temple of the False God was used in Standard to get Dragon recursion going faster and for pumping out bigger DoJs.

It certainly doesnt have much synergy with the Runes, but they are probably worth it.

Zilla

09-12-2005, 03:29 AM

Standard didn't have Wasteland. In most metagames, Temple is likely to cost you more tempo than it gains you.

troopatroop

09-12-2005, 04:25 PM

have you considered the reverence lock?

Reverence/Humility is GG for everything aggro, just a thought.

kirdape3

09-12-2005, 05:14 PM

Humility is insane against aggro on it's own. Why play Reverance then, when you're almost guaranteed to have enough sweep (I personally run 4 Plow, 4 Shards, 4 Wrath, 4 Humility, and 4 Vengeance) to off their team first?

Slay

09-12-2005, 05:21 PM

Not to mention how Humility + DoJ = sweeper.
-Slay

Alfred

09-12-2005, 05:28 PM

Also, Humility/Caltrops or Humility/Orim's Prayer are both cheaper than the reverance lock. This has all been discussed before. A good question is how do you win with this deck without going to time? Pray you win the first game?

frogboy

09-12-2005, 05:31 PM

The problem with Temple is you either have to cut spells for them or go down to essentially 21 land for operating your early game.

Why exactly do you need to bother with a lock against aggro decks when you're running approximately infinite ways to kill creatures? Screwing around with fancy locks that are usually irrelevent isn't something you need.

Edited By frogboy on 1126560853

scarface

09-21-2005, 01:02 AM

I believe this deck can make room for factories or kjeldoran outposts. I know it really sucks to have your outpost wasted, but if your opponent isn't able to get rid of it, those soldier tokens can get pretty annoying, especially with humility on the table. Maybe at least having one or two copies in the sideboard wouldn't be a bad idea. If not outpost, then why not at least factory? Goblins would be able to gain just as much tempo advantage by wasting a secluded steppe as by wasting a factory, and I can't really see too many other matchups that would suffer by including some manlands. Either way, I just think this deck could be even more solid if it had some extra kill conditions.

noobslayer

09-21-2005, 10:07 PM

Four dragons and decrees should be more than enough. Game 2 your get angels, which only helps even more. Btw, IBA, how do you feel about supression field in the board? I know it looks rather tight, but do you think if you could find room it would be suitable?

moxpearl

09-21-2005, 10:20 PM

What matchups are the manlands or outposts going to help? It already has a very strong matchup against goblins and is decent against landstill. It's glaring weakness is creatureless combo decks where it's auto-lose-1st game, presuming your opponent has a brain and can figure out they can draw-go for at least six turns with no worry. With at least 3 each of humilities, wraths, wing shards, and 4 swords, you have 13 completely dead cards in game 1.

I'd like to know how to improve this deck's chances against combo. Or, maybe you just have to hope you can win games 2 and 3 which are 40% each at best.

Also, can someone please explain why this deck is called Rabid Wombat, and not MWC?

Zilla

09-21-2005, 10:49 PM

In theory, Factories improve all the deck's matchups. The reason is because in a tournament environment, the deck's biggest enemy besides creatureless combo is the clock. The deck is very controlling, but is also very, very slow. It goes to time a lot, and this can lead to a lot of unintentional draws. Factory theoreticlly remedies this problem. I'm not sure it's the right choice, but that would at least be the thinking behind their inclusion.

As for the deck's name, it's part of a running joke. Solidarity was originally named after the card Solidarity (I don't remember exactly why... it had something to do with Draft, or something). The Tendrils deck Nausea was named after the card by the same name, following Solidarity's tradition. Neither card has anything to do with the decks which were named for them. Rabid Wombat is the third deck following in this tradition.

kirdape3

09-21-2005, 11:27 PM

You know, I've never gone to time. You really don't have so many decisions to make turn after turn - the whole decision is on the plan you want to follow, and most of the time executing that plan is exceedingly simple. You will go long in some games, but matches aren't so hard to win 1-0.

bigbear102

09-21-2005, 11:30 PM

@Drawing: This deck is supposed to go to time in the round, at least that's my experience. Winning game 1 in an hour shouldn't be that hard, then you never finish game 2. If you lose game 1, hope that it's against aggro so that you can stomp game 2/3 with angels.

I have played this deck in a few tourneys, and done well every time. It really is a matter of winning game 1 and then drawing most of the time.

Suppression Field seems like it could be pretty good in this deck. Finding room will be hard though.

Zilla

09-22-2005, 03:23 AM

Suppression Field seems like it could be pretty good in this deck. Finding room will be hard though.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but Suppression Field isn't strong here. Cycling is an activated ability.

Alfred

09-22-2005, 12:39 PM

Let's weigh the pros and cons of Mishra's Factory in Rabid Wombat:

Pros:
-Helps to win the game faster
-Deals damage earlier so that it takes a smaller
DoJ to kill them, or less swings with Dragon
-Has the potential to win the game by itself
-It is really good against aggro decks
-It is a good place to sink unused mana
-Has synergy with wrath effects, immune to sorcery-speed creature removal

Some of these pros and cons are obviously more important than others. The biggest confilct is it being a target for removal versus it's utility against aggro and it's winning the game faster. It's a tough call.

kirdape3

09-22-2005, 06:00 PM

It's more like, protection from Flashfires and/or something to do against the Tide matchup where you otherwise just get bashed repeatedly with a rock.

l_neiman

09-30-2005, 01:26 PM

IBA: congrats on your top-8 at StarCity Richmond. I had some questions I was hoping you could answer:

- what are your thoughts on the general viability of this deck in the format? You top-8'd, and there was another build who finished 21st, as well as one finishing 37th.

- how happy were you with your SB for the Richmond tourney?

- I know that at one point you considered running Enlightened Tutor and a small toolbox, which seems like a good idea to me. Where do you stand on that now?

Thanks,
Luis

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-30-2005, 03:54 PM

- Right now? Best deck in the format. It smashes the utter shit out of the top two decks. Lots of decks claim to reliably beat Goblins, and don't. This deck does it about 95% of it's games. Of course, you also have to play it right- Anwar somehow lost to U/r/w Landstill via decking. Not really sure how that happened, although it sounded like equal parts bad luck and misplays.

The changes did fairly well by me, although I'm not so sure about Chalice anymore.

- Enlightened Tutor has been tried and at the end of the day, redundancy + card draw >>>> Crappy tutor toolbox.

l_neiman

09-30-2005, 04:24 PM

Re: the Landstill matchup: I know you're in no hurry to break their Standstill and such, and you just want to keep making land drops, optimizing your hand through cycling, etc. If they start going "aggro" on you, however, and are swinging with a couple of manlands every turn, what's your plan, to STP and Wing Shards their lands, and hopefully remove them from the graveyard with a Furnace so they can't come back via Crucible? Obviously our Wraths will be quite useless (unless they run/resolve maindeck Dragons or Angels), so should we try to resolve a Humility to neuter their lands?

Since it's very possible that in your average Landstill match Game 1 will be all there's time for, I just wanted to be sure I'm playing it properly...

Also, how did the Chalices and Rule of Laws affect your Solidarity matchup? Is it noticeably better now?

Congrats again on your finish, and thanks for your reply.

Luis

rhino408

10-02-2005, 10:57 PM

I think I can answer the question of "If Landstill goes aggro on you" which is probably do some Plainscycling and agro them back with a lot of Soldiers. I think that sounds like a reasonable solution.

Hey IBA congrats on the 7th place finish.

I wanted to ask a few questions:

1. What were Chalices suppose to be good against? (my only guess is Solidarity)

2. Have any sideboard tips? As in what to take out and what to put in :laugh:

ElvenTitz

10-03-2005, 12:43 AM

My question :
What to do against stifle, especially when landstill goes agrro and holding a stifle or two, i know it may sound weird or non suboptimal for landstill, but still if decklist is wrong, problem dosnt go away.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-03-2005, 05:41 AM

Re: the Landstill matchup: I know you're in no hurry to break their Standstill and such, and you just want to keep making land drops, optimizing your hand through cycling, etc. If they start going "aggro" on you, however, and are swinging with a couple of manlands every turn, what's your plan, to STP and Wing Shards their lands, and hopefully remove them from the graveyard with a Furnace so they can't come back via Crucible? Obviously our Wraths will be quite useless (unless they run/resolve maindeck Dragons or Angels), so should we try to resolve a Humility to neuter their lands?

Since it's very possible that in your average Landstill match Game 1 will be all there's time for, I just wanted to be sure I'm playing it properly...

Also, how did the Chalices and Rule of Laws affect your Solidarity matchup? Is it noticeably better now?

Congrats again on your finish, and thanks for your reply.

Luis
The important thing to realize in the Landstill matchup is that breaking Standstill isn't bad. This is part of what makes the card so terrible for them; half the time they play it, they should end up having to break it to answer DoJ. If, however, they go aggro, a Swords and a Shards can clear their attackers, and on average they'll draw maybe one relevant card off of Standstill.

Although I generally don't break Standstill unless I'm at 5-6 life.

I didn't actually get to try out the sideboard against Solidarity, unfortunately.

Also: Stifle plan is pretty simple; wait until DoJ is lethal. They won't always have the Stifle for each DoJ. And if you're really worried about it, Abeyance enters the equation. And, of course, you can also start recurring Dragon.

l_neiman

10-03-2005, 12:21 PM

Thanks for your reply.

While you didn't get to use the Chalices at the GPT, were they good against Solidarity in testing? Would you bring them in against any non-combo decks?

Also, would you mind posting a mini-report for the GPT and tell us what you played against, just so I can better gauge the deck's matchups? On paper it looks to me like you smash Goblins and beat LandStill, but I wanted to see if you'd played against anything else.

If you were heading to the GP with no Byes, how safe a choice do you think this deck is? If it's game against Goblins is that good you should do fine in the early rounds. Provided there's a good SB plan against combo I can see this deck doing quite well. Are Chalice and Rule of Law enough, or do we need something like Gilded Light as well?

I'd also like to second rhino408's request for a sideboarding primer, :).

Luis

ElvenTitz

10-08-2005, 02:30 AM

A)I mind adding Reverence to my sideboard, i consider this card is good against goblin deck, this deck dont beat goblins 100%, if you think so - you are terribly wrong. They can just rush throught rune of protection with tonns of meat, do you really rely only on rune + WOG effects, isnt it a bit "not enoguht" ?

B)Whats your board against English Breakfast, Burn, Natural Order and Pox.

C)Where is your report ? This deck is so difficult, a primer for this deck is a must !

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-08-2005, 02:53 AM

At the moment it's 3 am at the Frog and I'm contemplating how very much I hate Cambodians. That aside, I'll get around to answering some of those specific questions tomorrow, although as far as a primer/sideboard strategy goes, I'm currently working on an article for SCG and would rather save that information for then.

KrzyMoose

10-09-2005, 11:05 AM

I've been testing this deck heavily the last few weeks or so, and I'm pretty damn impressed with it. The only problem I have is that it seems to randomly lose to random aggro. Game 1, it has (roughly) no way to deal with a Jitte'ed Troll, River Boas, etc. All we can hope for is a Wrath and Humility, which we can't cast until turn 4 anyway.

Has anyone tested Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox? Chrome Mox seems like a worse choice, as after turn 5 or so, mana isn't a problem. However, it would be very nice to get that Humility/WoG on turn 3. I've been thinking about dropping Vengeance for it, as I've never really needed Vengeance (or, when I do need it, I can't use it).

I also think that some type of disenchant effect should be main'ed. Relying on a (at the earliest) turn 6 Vengeance just to clear off that Jitte is both not safe, and a waste.

Now, as for the 'board, why do we need Angels? Are they there just for the random aggro matchup? They certainly don't improve MWC's game against Solidarity (or, technically, Flame Vault, but that's not a real deck, anyway). My 'board looks the same as IBA's, except I run True Believer instead of Sacred Ground (Combo is our worst matchup, and no combo runs Armeggedon effects). I mean, game 1, we're still royally fucked against Solidarity, and that's something I think we have to accept. Games 2 and 3, however, we win with Chalice, Law, and Believer.

I'm probably going to play this at a GPT next week, where I know the meta is going to be primarily aggro. I'm definitely going to test Petals, and I seriously think they'll help.

Tao

10-09-2005, 02:49 PM

The only problem I have is that it seems to randomly lose to random aggro. Game 1, it has (roughly) no way to deal with a Jitte'ed Troll, River Boas, etc. All we can hope for is a Wrath and Humility, which we can't cast until turn 4 anyway.

Has anyone tested Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox? Chrome Mox seems like a worse choice, as after turn 5 or so, mana isn't a problem. However, it would be very nice to get that Humility/WoG on turn 3. I've been thinking about dropping Vengeance for it, as I've never really needed Vengeance (or, when I do need it, I can't use it).

I also think that some type of disenchant effect should be main'ed. Relying on a (at the earliest) turn 6 Vengeance just to clear off that Jitte is both not safe, and a waste.

Now, as for the 'board, why do we need Angels? Are they there just for the random aggro matchup? They certainly don't improve MWC's game against Solidarity (or, technically, Flame Vault, but that's not a real deck, anyway). My 'board looks the same as IBA's, except I run True Believer instead of Sacred Ground (Combo is our worst matchup, and no combo runs Armeggedon effects). I mean, game 1, we're still royally fucked against Solidarity, and that's something I think we have to accept. Games 2 and 3, however, we win with Chalice, Law, and Believer.
- Let's see what you have MD vs. Random Aggro:

- 4 Swords
- 3 Wrath
- 3 Wing Shards
- 3 Humility

The rest of the Deck is Land or Cycles/Cantrips; Renewed Faith cycles and gives Life Gain.

- I cannot understand how you loose to Aggro with this Deck, really. Any Random Aggro should be your best Matchup. Even though Jitte is annoying cause it goes around Humility, you can still keep their Board off creatures with Wrath, Swords and Shards until Vengeance comes. If they use Red for Burn they lose anyway to Rune of Protection.

- Chrome Mox or Petal are just bad, nothing else but bad, because they are Card Disadvantage. If you want to Accelerate to Wrath, use Mind Stone because it Cantrips but I never felt this was needed. You do not often need a turn 3 Wrath, because few Decks spit out that many Creatures on the 1st 2-3 Turns and if they do you have Shards/Swords to buy 1 Turn.

- Don't cut Vengeance. It is a cycling answer to everything, and that is exactly what the deck needs.

- The Angels come in vs. everything where Humility goes out, I call this a good plan.

ElvenTitz

10-09-2005, 03:20 PM

I played the deck today in local non-dci legacy tournament (7 players), lost to English Breakfast, it boarded Flash Fires against me. Well, i didnt lost due to single ld, i lost due to bad sportmanship of my opponent, but anyways, im the only man who plays the Rabid Wombat so they board the hate if they see me registring the tournament.
Ok, the deck i played :
19 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Rune of Protection : RED (necesarry, coz out of 7 decks, 5 was red (me and Breakfast is an expection)
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
4 Decree of Justice
4 Renewed Faith
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wing Shards
4 Phyrexian Furnace
4 Abeyance
SB :
4 Disenchant
2 Ivory Mask (against Burn)
1 Wrath of God
3 Reverence (against Gobbos)
3 Sacred Ground (well, never sided them, was kinda stupid, thought)
1 Akroma's Vengance
1 Orim's Chant

Roud one : English Breakfast
Opponent : some local trader, very mercantil, his cards are crazy overpriced.
Play style : unsporting, intimidating
Game 1 - I keep hand with 2 lands and one eternal dragon.I play plains, he plays land with bird. I play plains. He casts survelade. EOT - cycle dragon. My turn - topdeck another plains. Pass. He - find creature with survelade eot. On turn - cast wall of roots. My turn - Plains, Humility. Opp = Concende imidatly.
Boarding : 1 Akroma's Vengance, 4 Disenchant, 1 Orim's Chant (to dodge counters). Take from main : 4 Rune of Protection : Red, 1 Decree of Justice, 1 Renewed Faith
Game 2 - Its hard to remember coz the game in fact never ended, im still alive after 2 flashfires casted. In five extra turn he made a minor mistake and i win. How lucky of me.

Round two : Gobbos (BR).
Opponent : Local legacy fan.
Playstyle : quite friendly
Game 1 - Turn two Rune of Protection, i "FORGET" to prevent damage from lackey, preventi from warchief insted (omg its deals more damage than lackey !!!). He puts sigang from his hand into play. On my turn i WOG away evrything, i hold his agression with Wing Shards, couple turns later humility, next turn - DoJ, he scoops.
Boarding : 3 Reverence instead of 3 Abeyances.
Game 2 - Turn two Rune of Protection, turn 4 reverance, he wanted to scoop but refused after some consideration, after all Sharpshooter + Prospector and Sigang plans are not dead yet. In fact they are after 2 turns later Humility.

Round three : Bad gobbos with maniac.
We ID.

Top 1 : I paired against my first opponent. Game is frustation and tooks full 1:30 hour.
Game 1 - I play toun four Humility and he scoops with huge amount of wining around it. Like a spoiled child. Truly.
Boarding : 4 Disenchant, 1 Akroma's Vengance, 1 Orim's Chant. Out of main - 4 Rune of Protection, 1 decree of justice and one Renewed Faith.
Game 2 - I play turn four Humility only to get it disenchanted and later lose all my lands to flashfires, he plays Akroma from his hand but i manage to stabilize, paly few Renewed Faithes, cast Humility but dont dig any decrees so i die to endless swarm of birds and squees. He took two warnings this game - 1st from Trying to dig a creature without survelade and second for changing graveyard order to get his Akroma on the top.
Boarding : No boarding... my mistake, i shoud side in Sacred Grounds but somehaw decided to stall this game, gain life and win by more life when judge come with the check (Single elemination top cant be draw, insted it decided by lifes total, see dci rules about this)
Game 3 - Nothing to say... I get full controll but its all ruined by a single flashfires. I topdeck like insane, 3 scrablings claws, he took out two of them by gorilla shamans but i killed them all so i had one still left. On turn 9 or so he casts flashfires and i cant topdeck a land for 3 next turns. I die to classic AKroma-Phage combo.

Hope it will help some one to learn from my mistakes.

Spynal

10-11-2005, 08:06 PM

I went 3-2-1 in the GPT with Wombat, and even had to play the Mirror Match.

My report can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1780)

My maindeck was just like IBA's with the exception of 3 Mishra's Factories to clock combo. I explain my changes in the report

:)

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-12-2005, 03:20 AM

On sideboarding;

Against Burn I obviously bring in additional RoP:Red's if I have them, Exalted Angels for Humility, and Sacred Ground's in case of Flashfires. I don't take out Swords to Plowshares even if I don't see creatures, as I can StP my own Dragons/Angels for emergency life-pump. Swords is also the last removal spell to go against Tendrils-Combo too for the same reason; I have actually won games in testing because of Swordsing one of my own men. It's a really bad lifegain spell, but sometimes that's enough.

Against both Burn and Pox I bring in Angels and Gilded Light if I'm playing the latter, as Light can counter a Duress or Hymn to Tourach. Disenchant effects are also good against Pox.

I'm working on a board to actually beat Solidarity, as masochistic as I am, but no, I don't think I'd run Chalice again. The card is good, but there are simply better options- Sphere of Resistance is very strong right now, and I don't want too many of my sideboard cards to be Artifacts for reasons of fighting the Cunning Wish toolbox.

Solidarity and other combo is also the primary reason to have Angels in the board. While it can come in against random aggro, her main function is to up the clock against Combo. All the stall in the World doesn't help you against Solidarity if you can't actually win.

And, yeah, really, I find that the deck beats Goblins quite enough as it is. My "sideboard" against them is mainly Sacred Ground, which I always bring in, as my only real way of losing this matchup is to either play incompetently or get Flashfire'd. If the card is dead, I was going to win anyway.

cartman34

10-12-2005, 05:42 AM

I would even switch back to Genju because its also powerfull against Aggro and a I guess its even a way to race combo as well and the main thing is that he doesnīt die to wrath like Angel does.

lyle h

10-12-2005, 07:09 AM

I don't know if it has been covered in this thread, but the Genju does NOT turn into a 2/5 under humility. I know that when the thread first started people were not sure if activating it twice would get it to turn good. Last saturday at a GPT in Indianapolis I asked the head judge if it would work before the event started and he said yes, then ofcourse during round 1 he said he misunderstood me and said it did not work. I even explained the situation and showed him the cards before the event, he said he misunderstood and apologized :angry:

Genju does NOT work under Humility except as a 1/1.

AnwarA101

10-12-2005, 12:45 PM

I'm working on a board to actually beat Solidarity, as masochistic as I am, but no, I don't think I'd run Chalice again. The card is good, but there are simply better options- Sphere of Resistance is very strong right now, and I don't want too many of my sideboard cards to be Artifacts for reasons of fighting the Cunning Wish toolbox.
Isn't Chalice better against Belcher. Setting the Chalice for 0 on turn 1 seems solid against a deck running all that artifact mana. I'm not sure Belcher is real deck, but I was just saying that it would be better in this case as well perhaps against Ill-Gotten Gains, but Sphere would work well too.

Obfuscate Freely

10-12-2005, 10:01 PM

I came across something in John Carter's column (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc61) last week that I suspect any Wombat player should be aware of. The layering system for continuous effects has been changed with the release of Ravnica.

The layering system is how the game figures out the end product of continuous effects (like Crusade or Overrun). First, you start with the printed characteristics. Then the system puts different kinds of effects into a particular order so that the results are consistent.
The layers handle different effects in this order:
(1) Copy effects; Dimir Doppelganger, Clone
(2) Control-changing effects&; Control Magic, Threaten
(3) Text-changing effects; Swirl the Mists, Artificial Evolution
(4) Type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; Dream Thrush, Neurok Transmuter
(5) All other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; Shifting Sky, Darkest Hour
(6) Power- and/or toughness-changing effects; Sorceress Queen, Blanchwood Armor
With each layer, you handle characteristic-setting abilities (Crimson Kobolds) first. [CR 418.5a] Then you handle things in timestamp order (generally the order things entered play) unless a dependency (which we'll cover another time) forces an adjustment. [CR 418.5b-g]

There are several minor tweaks in how the layering system works. One simple one is that if something applies in multiple layers, you apply each part in the respective layer (such as Wild Mongrel's color change in #5 and +1/+1 in #6). Effects for layer #4 used to have a special exemption that no longer applies.

The big change is that layer #6 has been remodeled. We now have sublayers in layer #6;
(6a) Effects from characteristic-setting abilities; just like other layers
(6b) All other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e;your generic "other" P/T effects
(6c) Changes from counters; Dragon Blood, modular creatures
(6d) Effects from static abilities that modify P/T but don't set P/T to a specific amount; Blanchwood Armor and Night of Soul's Betrayal
(6e) Effects that switch a creature's power and toughness; Aquamoeba, Dwarven Thaumaturgist

Anyone playing Humility needs to memorize these changes.

Basically, the "other" layer (where Humility's "all creatures are 1/1s" applies) has been bumped up to 6b. Every other kind of power/toughness altering effect is now applied after it. This means those effects "beat" Humility.

So, pretty much any sort of pump will now supersede Humility's effect, regardless of timestamps. This includes +1/+1 counters, so Modular creatures and Spikes actually get bigger with a Humility in play. This also includes Crusade-type effects, and of course equipment and auras.

if something applies in multiple layers, you apply each part in the respective layer (such as Wild Mongrel's color change in #5 and +1/+1 in #6). Effects for layer #4 used to have a special exemption that no longer applies.

This excerpt describes the other important change, one that may be even more relevant in Legacy. Manlands and Genjus are now almost entirely unaffected by Humility. Genju of the Fields and Mishra's Factory may be worth reconsidering for Wombat.

All of this makes Humility at least a little weaker, but it should still be pretty damn good. Just make sure you have a good grasp of the changes before you play it in a tournement. I'd suspect having a copy of the rules on hand would be a good idea, as well.

Slay

10-12-2005, 10:15 PM

I don't see where it says that manlands are unaffected by Humility, at least as far as P/T is concerned. I'm pretty sure since changing something to a creature is a characteristic-setting effect, the effect is applied in step 6a.

Even if this weren't the case, Genjus just seem like some serious win-mores.
-Slay

Obfuscate Freely

10-12-2005, 10:37 PM

Changing something's type to "creature" is a type-changing effect, not a characteristic-setting effect. However, that is now irrelevant.

if something applies in multiple layers, you apply each part in the respective layer (such as Wild Mongrel's color change in #5 and +1/+1 in #6). Effects for layer #4 used to have a special exemption that no longer applies.

If any effect changed the type of something, every part of that effect used to be applied in layer #4, but that has changed. Now, each part of the effect applies separately, in its corresponding layer. That means that the power/toughness-setting ability of a Genju or manland now applies within layer #6 (power/toughness changing effects). Specifically, it will apply in sublayer 6b, which is the same sublayer that Humility makes creatures 1/1s. This means we have to check timestamps...

Effects created by an activated ability are given a timestamp upon resolution of that ability. Thus, an activation of a Genju will have a later timestamp than a Humility already in play, and Genju of the Fields will make a Plains a 2/5 creature.

Humility's ability-stripping effect applies in layer #5, which is the same layer that Genju of the Fields tries to grant Spirit Link. Thus, timestamps are checked and the Genju wins again.

moxpearl

10-13-2005, 12:59 AM

My opinion...

The Humility effect "depends on" on the factory first becoming a 2/2 creature, so the factory effect happens first, then the humility happens, making it 1/1. See rule 418.5c and 418.5d.

418.5c An effect is said to ďdepend onĒ another if (a) itís applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

418.5d An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied, even if this causes a characteristic-setting ability to apply after another effect. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, theyíre applied in ďtimestamp orderĒ relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

Spynal

10-13-2005, 01:09 AM

This reminds me of a rather funny aside I forgot to mention in my report:

While playing against Rex's NQG, in game 1, he had 3 Meddlin' Mages naming all my relevant removal and beating face, so me being the miser I am cycle into a Humility and drop it, resolving to my surprise. The following conversation ensues:

Me: Can I get a judge call?
Rex: Sure
Me: Thanks I just wanna double check it, Judge!
Judge: I'm right here, one second
(waiting)
Judge: What's the question?
Me: 3 Meddling Mages in play, I resolve a Humility, I'm allowed to play those spells again, correct?
Judge: Yes, Humility removes all abilities. Humility is such a confusing card, this is why you don't play with it, ASS!

Yup, got called an ass by a judge for playing everybody's favorite card.

as to my response to the rules change .... oi, this could make for some painful calls in the near future methinks ... time to finish off that set of Time Vaults.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-13-2005, 02:10 AM

Although Humility sucking against Spike Feeder is annoying, Genju Working around it does create a lot of new and interesting possibilities.

l_neiman

10-13-2005, 11:24 AM

This is the problem I was running into vs. Goblins sometimes: I'd have Humility down, but they'd have an active Jitte, and its counters let them essentially ignore the Humility and still do 5 damage per turn with one creature. Quite annoying... Granted most Goblin lists probably won't be running Jittes, but this is another reason why I think some number of disenchants should be in the maindeck, not to mention their usefulness against random things.

It matters if Rancor was attached before or after the Humility was played. If Rancor was in play when Humility resolves then the creature becomes a 1/1. But If you play Rancor after Humility is in play then you have a 3/1 trampler. Samething with SoFI. If SoFI is equipped to a creature and your opponet plays Humility it becames a 1/1 but if you equip it to another creature it then becames a 3/3.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-13-2005, 04:00 PM

This is the problem I was running into vs. Goblins sometimes: I'd have Humility down, but they'd have an active Jitte, and its counters let them essentially ignore the Humility and still do 5 damage per turn with one creature. Quite annoying... Granted most Goblin lists probably won't be running Jittes, but this is another reason why I think some number of disenchants should be in the maindeck, not to mention their usefulness against random things.

Luis
In such a situation, it seems almost strictly etter to have Rune of Protection up.

Anwar was working on a build running Disenchants main (2x) as well as Mind Stone, which I'm now actually tending to favor for sideboard reasons, although I'm not sure if I cut the same maindeck cards as him to fit them in.

Ewokslayer

10-13-2005, 04:16 PM

It matters if Rancor was attached before or after the Humility was played. If Rancor was in play when Humility resolves then the creature becomes a 1/1. But If you play Rancor after Humility is in play then you have a 3/1 trampler. Samething with SoFI. If SoFI is equipped to a creature and your opponet plays Humility it becames a 1/1 but if you equip it to another creature it then becames a 3/3.
That is how it use to work. With the new layering I believe that the +2/+0 will be applied after the Humility makes the creature a 1/1 regardless of when the Rancor was put into play. Timestamps would then only be used to determine if the creature had trample.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-13-2005, 04:20 PM

Which is, how you say, le gay.

Ewokslayer

10-13-2005, 04:27 PM

Not as bad as with Spikes and Arcbound stuff. Instead of hosing them, they get +1/+1. Does this mean Affinity wants Rabit Wombat to play a Humility. It's like a glorious anthem for your opponents!

Jack maybe Rabit Wombat was just too strong so they had to hose Humility.

Ridiculous Hat

10-13-2005, 04:28 PM

I'm pretty sure that humility's varying effects are in different layers, as OF said earlier-- the power-and-toughness effect layer has both humility's downsizing effect and rancor's pump. It would still look at timestamps.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-13-2005, 04:29 PM

Not as bad as with Spikes and Arcbound stuff. Instead of hosing them, they get +1/+1. Does this mean Affinity wants Rabit Wombat to play a Humility. It's like a glorious anthem for your opponents!

Jack maybe Rabit Wombat was just too strong so they had to hose Humility.
First they did it to Jesus, and now they're doing it to me.

My only consolation is the decks playing those cards being terrible.

At least it makes Arcbound Ravage just a 2/2 for 2. Humility makes Arcbound Worker kick Isamaru in the junks.

Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1129235444

Ewokslayer

10-13-2005, 05:09 PM

I'm pretty sure that humility's varying effects are in different layers, as OF said earlier-- the power-and-toughness effect layer has both humility's downsizing effect and rancor's pump. It would still look at timestamps.
Humility's effects are in different layers. However layer 6 the P/T layer has been broken out into a-e.
Humility goes in layer 6b (all other P/T changes not specificed elsewhere)
Rancor is in layer 6d (P/T modifiers from static abilities that don't set a specific amount)
Since Rancor is in a later layer it is applied last.

Ridiculous Hat

10-13-2005, 05:28 PM

I'm pretty sure that humility's varying effects are in different layers, as OF said earlier-- the power-and-toughness effect layer has both humility's downsizing effect and rancor's pump. It would still look at timestamps.
Humility's effects are in different layers. However layer 6 the P/T layer has been broken out into a-e.
Humility goes in layer 6b (all other P/T changes not specificed elsewhere)
Rancor is in layer 6d (P/T modifiers from static abilities that don't set a specific amount)
Since Rancor is in a later layer it is applied last.
I stand corrected. Furthermore, that is a hideously disgusting rules interaction and I hope I never judge any legacy events where people are cruel enough to play that card.

Obfuscate Freely

10-13-2005, 07:24 PM

It's really not that bad. I think John did an admirable job spelling it out and explaining it.

As for the dependency rule, that threw me for a loop until Mad Zur reminded me that the type-changing part of the Genju's effect will apply in layer #1, and thus the power/toughness setting of Humility (which of course applies in layer #6) is not dependent on the Genju's effect. Thus, the two power/toughness settings (Humility's 1/1 and the Genju's 2/5) vie for superiority and the Genju effect's later timestamp wins.

dicemanx

10-14-2005, 12:25 PM

I have a few questions and am need of a little feedback. I will be taking this deck to a Legacy GPT; the meta should most likely consist of Goblins, Affinity, random aggro, burn, some aggro control (Madness, Fish builds, Gro, U/W pro-red creatures with Worship etc), and probably some Landstill. At our last GPT only ONE Solidarity deck showed up and did very poorly, so I'm expecting 0 to show up this time around. Belcher was the only other combo deck to make an appearance, and while he traumatized some opponents with 1st turn kills, the deck wasn't consistent enough to make top 8.

In any case, in light of the almost complete absence of combo, and the fact that cards like Duress/Therapy are scarce, I have decided to forego Gilded Light completely. Also, because I'm anticipating lots of red, I have chosen to run 4 RoP:Red and 4 Wrath of God. I must say though, I still very much fear the Goblin match-up. I know that it seems to be an accepted fact that MWC "destroys" Goblins, but I honestly don't think its that simple. The deck has only 4 answers to a 1st turn Goblin, and cannot rely on RoP:Red to stem the tide - if it does, then it cannot simultaneously use the RoP AND cycle to draw into enough lands, given that there are only 19 lands in the deck (the 4 cycling lands barely count, because they present immediate waste targets). MWC could find itself in a position to build to 5(!) mana to fire off a Wrath, since the good Goblin decks will likely draw into a Port early. That's not an easy task. There are also some not so stellar cards in this match-up, like Wing Shards - they usually don't do enough unless the Goblin player makes some convenient mistake of playing spells before attacking. He might do that on occasion if its a Warchief to squeeze in an extra 2, but a wise Goblin player would not be so greedy if MWC has 3 mana open.

In any case, I *know* I can win this match-up, but I want to make it *better*. I thought of two ways that I can accomplish this:

1. 3 Shining Shoal instead of the Wing Shards - Shoal is another answer to an early Lackey. It might weaken the deck against other aggro based strategies, but I'm so confident in MWC's ability to handle anything else beyond Goblins and Affinity that I think this sacrifice is worth it. Shoal has some other applications such as misdirecting burn, although those seem to be not very significant. I don't care though, I want to have answers to Lackey without needing to mull into them or hoping to build to 4-5 mana in time.

2. 4 Ghostly Prison in the SB. This card is useful against all fast swarm strategies, and the fact that it costs only 3 is a big boon. Against Goblins it basically "shuts off" Ports if you can get one down, because they might need to use their mana to press. If they don't you can cycle into more land and then a Wrath eventually.

I also decided that it might be a very good idea to run some artifact destruction in the main deck. I opted for 4 Seals of Cleansing. They can add to the removal count against Affinity, they can nail Vials, they can kill Survival if I don't see Humility early, and they can also kill Landstill components like Disk, Moat, Factory, CoW etc. They could also be randomly useful against decks like Trix and Belcher. I understand that these decks are supposed to be favorable match-ups - what I'm trying to do is maximize these match-ups in my favor, because I will have very little combo to fear.

Before I present my decklist, I also had a question. I have never tested against Solidarity before, mainly because I did not expect to see any locally (and was correct). But I was wondering about one SB possiblity vs a deck like this - since MWC already runs 4 Abeyance, how effective would 3-4 Boseiju be in the SB? Since they have no land kill, Boseiju pushes the Abeyance (and Gilded Light if its in the main deck) past their counters. Can they still kill you in response? Is Boseiju a thought? I was also considering Boseiju coupled with Sacred Ground in the SB (The Sacred Ground in case I have to contend with Armageddon or Flashfires), so that I can resolve some of my critical spells against decks with counterspells, be they control or aggro control. Thoughts?

Feedback is appreciated. I understand that the deck is a bit lighter on cycling cards and thus is a little weaker against Landstill, but I think that there is such a huge gulf between MWC and Landstill in MWC's favor that I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

Ewokslayer

10-14-2005, 12:44 PM

A few things
1) I think you are playing the Goblins matchup wrong. Just because you have a rune out doesn't mean you have to use it for every single point of damage. Just stopping Lackey and Piledriver if you need to while cycling into your Wraths and land should be enough. Also you opinion of Wing Shards seems to be confusing. You don't like it because it never storms because a smart Goblins player will not cast Warchief and all its threats and then bash for the win. So, basically against a "smart" Goblins player they are stalling the game by a least a turn without having to even be in your hand, thus giving you plenty of time to find a wrath.
2) Boseiju for anti-Solidarity tech. It isn't going to work. Primarily because it comes into play tapped and is thus not at all a surprise for the opponent. Once they see it they can adjust their play and make it irrelevant by either going off around the spell you cast (never letting it resolve) or tapping you out and going off in their turn

dicemanx

10-14-2005, 01:12 PM

A few things
1) I think you are playing the Goblins matchup wrong. Just because you have a rune out doesn't mean you have to use it for every single point of damage. Just stopping Lackey and Piledriver if you need to while cycling into your Wraths and land should be enough. Also you opinion of Wing Shards seems to be confusing. You don't like it because it never storms because a smart Goblins player will not cast Warchief and all its threats and then bash for the win. So, basically against a "smart" Goblins player they are stalling the game by a least a turn without having to even be in your hand, thus giving you plenty of time to find a wrath.
I don't beleve that its me playing the Rune incorrectly. I am not attempting to stop every last point of damage. My first priority when I play is to build to 4-5 mana so that I can stabilize, even if it will cost me the majority of my 20 life. My problem is that the creatures can accumulate with the help of an early Lackey frighteningly quickly, and while I'm stopping the critical cards on turn 3 (Lackey and Piledriver) I am still in danger of getting run over because the Ports are buying them enough time to kill me with their 1/1s and 2/2s. This is of course not to mention that I *better* have a Wrath once I hit 4-5 mana, and that's not always a guarantee. You mention that the tools I have "should" be enough. I'm well aware of this, but I can tell you that Goblins *still* can take a fair chunk of games from MWC. MWC will dominate any mid game, but the games it does lose are those it loses early because it just doesn't have enough 0-1 mana answers. I want to change that, given the fact that I don't have to sacrifice that many slots for combo. I want to know what my best options are.

The other interesting thing to point out with regard to you mentioning that I am being inconsistent with my analysis of Shards: a "smart" Goblin player might hold back to not walk into a Wing Shards. If I am packing Shining Shoal instead of Wing Shards, they won't necessarily know this! They might be playing around the Shards regardless. It's not like I've been playing this deck forever and everyone is prepared for me - they will probably anticipate the standard MWC strategy.

midnightAce

10-14-2005, 02:14 PM

A few things:
a) IMO, Wrath on 4/5th turn is not the priority here. Everybody knows that Gob players will save up a Ringleader or Matron, go recover within one turn after a Wrath. Humility should be the first thing you cast. It stops the entire Goblin advantage team, and renders both Lackey and Piledriver useless. Then you start wiping the board and chumping with DoJ tokens, THAT, is the ideal play.

b) It's entirely possible to create storm count yourself. StP, Abeyance, etc. While it's not really ideal, it can be done, and that's the good thing about it. Also note that without a Warcheif in play, situations such as

In those cases, chances are, Shards will take out the intended target.

If the Goblin player is intentionally holding back, and not abusing the haste factor, that buys you 2~3 turns for you go dig for Wrath/Humility.

c) Secluded Steppe is STRICTLY superior than Drifting Meadow in this deck, because it's identical to Meadow except for it cost 1 less to cycle.

Ewokslayer

10-14-2005, 02:43 PM

Everybody knows that Gob players will save up a Ringleader or Matron, go recover within one turn after a Wrath.
You know they won't always have a Ringleader or Matron in their hand. Nor will the Ringleader always be card advantage.
But I agree, Humility is a priority.

dicemanx

10-14-2005, 03:01 PM

a) IMO, Wrath on 4/5th turn is not the priority here. Everybody knows that Gob players will save up a Ringleader or Matron, go recover within one turn after a Wrath. Humility should be the first thing you cast. It stops the entire Goblin advantage team, and renders both Lackey and Piledriver useless. Then you start wiping the board and chumping with DoJ tokens, THAT, is the ideal play.

No, the right play will be dictated by two things - the board position combined with my life total, and which of the two cards I am lucky to have in my hand (Wrath and/or Humility). If I have the luxury to drop a Humility first and then Wrath, then of course I will chose to do so. What I can't do however, is will my deck to produce for me a Humility ahead of a Wrath - this deck is at the whim of its topdecks/cards that it cycles into, given that it otherwise has no tutoring or card drawing. I think you're making an assumption that I am some sort of clueless idiot, but I forgive you :).

It's entirely possible to create storm count yourself. StP, Abeyance, etc. While it's not really ideal, it can be done

This doesn't exactly concern me. If I have 4 mana avaiable on their turn (to generate a storm count of at least one with StP and Shards), that means that I had 4 mana on my turn. This also means that I likely had the opportunity to stabilize with a Wrath or Humility on that turn.

My main goal is figuring out what I can do to survive until I *reach* 4 mana on my turn against Goblins. While your scenarios are good, they don't address this initial concern of mine.

If the Goblin player is intentionally holding back, and not abusing the haste factor, that buys you 2~3 turns for you go dig for Wrath/Humility.

Yes, but as I mentioned before, you don't actually have to be playing Shards for the opponent to hold back in anticipation of it.

Secluded Steppe is STRICTLY superior than Drifting Meadow in this deck, because it's identical to Meadow except for it cost 1 less to cycle.

This was my decklisting error. I was of course running Steppe but I forgot its name when posting in this thread, so naturally I looked the name up thinking the cycling land was in Urza's Saga :p. I will edit my initial post to include the correct card.

KrzyMoose

10-14-2005, 03:42 PM

dicemanx is right. I think most people here always assume the most ideal draws, which, as anyone who has every played a game of Magic knows, doesn't always happen.

I suggest testing some form of acceleration, namely Lotus Petal. Sure, it only lasts a turn, but if you can get that Humility/Wrath down a turn earlier, it will definitely help. Mishra's Factory might help, as well, as a 3/3 can usually beat their creatures.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-14-2005, 03:52 PM

I don't assume the ideal draws. I assume the draws experience tells me I draw. In the last two major tournaments I went to (Duel for Duals, and a GPT with 40+ people) I played against Goblins five times and went 10-1. The one game I lost was to a Patriarch's Bidding, because I forgot it would let me get back my Eternal Dragon to block the Piledriver and Wrath next turn (I had only had 3 hours of sleep or so). The deck has all the tools in the World for beating the snot out of Goblins already. Just don't keep mana light hands and keep your life around 4-6 and you're good to go in this matchup.

I like Wing Shards because it smashes the crap out of Control. It also creates a dilemma against a Goblins player trying to finish me off as soon as possible- rush into the turn 3 kill and lose the team to Shards, or hold back and get Wrathed next turn. Or you reserve cards in your hand, and advance to a late game you have no way of winning. I also find the analysis that most people anticipate Shards incorrect; in most cases, Goblin players have no idea that they should be afraid of the card, even those that played during Onslaught Block tend to think it doesn't exist in this format.

Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1129319586

dicemanx

10-14-2005, 04:01 PM

dicemanx is right. I think most people here always assume the most ideal draws, which, as anyone who has every played a game of Magic knows, doesn't always happen.

I suggest testing some form of acceleration, namely Lotus Petal. Sure, it only lasts a turn, but if you can get that Humility/Wrath down a turn earlier, it will definitely help. Mishra's Factory might help, as well, as a 3/3 can usually beat their creatures.
I was contemplating that instead of Petal, I could try the long forgotten Jeweled Amulet . Each of the three pieces of acceleration has some significant downside (Jeweled Amulet, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox) and Mind Stone is decent but competes with both cycling and RoP:Red for a turn 2 play.

Mishra's Factory is something to look into for sure, as is Quicksand. They both weaken RoP a little though and they increase you mana base's vulnerability to wastelands, which is a huge downside. Ports are already bad enough, but enabling any Wastes that they might draw is asking for a beating.

I also find the analysis that most people anticipate Shards incorrect; in most cases, Goblin players have no idea that they should be afraid of the card, even those that played during Onslaught Block tend to think it doesn't exist in this format.

I would agree with you, but there are also other things I have to take into consideration; for instance, the opportunity for the Goblins player to blindly walk into a Shards might just not come up. They might decide to drop a Warchief off a Lackey turn two along with a Piledriver, then instead of casting another Warchief or a Ringleader turn 3 they will start Porting me instead. I'm not really so concerned with the bad Goblin players that will make mistakes like walking into Shards; unfortunately for me, a lot of the better local players will be opting to play Goblins, and they know how to handle control more effectively.

CavernNinja

10-14-2005, 04:36 PM

If you are looking at acceleration I would also look to Mind Stone. It can give you a turn 3 wrath and then regain it's card lost later on. But then again I'm not a huge fan of any acceleration in this deck because I feel like you should be able to live without it. If you are having trouble with earlier wraths/shards/lackeys/piledrivers then Mind Stone seems to fit into the theme of the deck better than Petal or Amulet.

Aside: Holy crap Diceman's back to 1.5

Pokerface

10-14-2005, 04:58 PM

This is probably really bad and really janky, but I'm just gonna throw it out there
For acceleration...

Pearl Medallion?

ElvenTitz

10-14-2005, 05:04 PM

Chiss, what are you men talking about ?
Lets play another pile in this deck ?
How about couple Wall of Swords.
By my testing i encountered some big problems against English Breakfast after SB. It sides naturalizes and flashfireses in. What to dew ?

The Professional N00b

10-14-2005, 05:46 PM

English Breakfast... are you serious? Is that even worth testing? How would you have problems with it? There is so much removal in the deck, Wing Shards/ Vengence/ Wrath/ Swords... You aren't losing that match up.
BTW, is there a reason why you're testing against that deck?

Slay

10-14-2005, 08:28 PM

FEB is so ridiculously not a metagame concern in the slightest.

Pearl Medallion can't cantrip, so only in the slight situation that you'd want to cast 2 non-StP spells in the same turn would it be useful more than a Mind Stone. Seriously, half your deck cycles.

Fora turn 2 play, Rune is a decent play, but not as good as Mind Stone. With the Rune, you'll be able ot activate it turn 3, which is good and all, but with the Mind Stone you get to Humility/Wrath turn 3, and after that who cares? Mind Stone alsocan perform its duty then turn into an extra card.

I think that adding Factories to the maindeck is very important, because it strengthens the game against combo. Seriously, the game against Goblins is not in jeapordy unless they come out with a Vial/Lackey, land destruction, and you dont' have the StP. Doubling their land destruction is a threat, but if you just have one StP you can fight through twice the LD to the midgame and win there.
-Slay

moxpearl

10-14-2005, 11:53 PM

I did ask the Starcity games judge regarding the new humility interaction with manlands/genju, and the judge concurred with Obfusicate Freely. Humility takes a backseat now to activated Power/Toughness. It now feels like Humility solely stops stuff literally printed on a creature card...maybe it's time to add the manlands.

I like the deck, but I do worry about it's viability should another combo deck (e.g. time vault) become tier 1. When it's favorable against the top 2 decks, it's fine to play, but it's tougher to justify when combo becomes more popular and 13+ of your cards are dead.

ElvenTitz

10-15-2005, 02:30 AM

@Professional Noob
English Breakfast is a deck in my local store metagame and i lost to it last time i played it. It runs 2 stifles and 4 fow in main and shards dont help coz he attacks with birds and shapeshifter so i cant get storm count very big till i get more than 4 lands and by that time i can be dead long ago.
Yes, i do some testing against this deck coz its exist in my meta.

KrzyMoose

10-15-2005, 04:12 PM

Well, I took this to a GPT today, and made Top 2. My Finals opponent was the current Legacy World Champ, who was running Life.dec and the only undefeated player in the tourney. I let him take the byes, and I took the packs. Unfortunately, there were only 16 or so players there, so we cut to Top 4.

I went 3-1, losing round 2 to Goblins(the one who placed t4). I played Zombies.dec round 1, Gobblins round 2, Madness round 3, White Weenie round 4, and Dryad Sligh in Top 4.

Things went pretty well, and I definitely suggest running Mishra's Factory. Oh, and speaking of Factory, it's only a 1/1 with Humility on the table, even if it's activated after Humility hits. I just wanted to clear that up.

But yeh, no too much else to say, other than I wish there were more people there X_x

moxpearl

10-15-2005, 05:32 PM

Congrats on your GPT win-tie.

Oh, and speaking of Factory, it's only a 1/1 with Humility on the table, even if it's activated after Humility hits. I just wanted to clear that up.

Not true. I didn't believe it at first, but the new continuous effect layering rules as of October 1st have changed Humility's impact. See Obfuscate Freely's posts earlier.

ElvenTitz

10-15-2005, 05:36 PM

Erm, so what about Full English Breakfast with flashfires and naturalize in sb? how can i beat that if it can kill me before i bring up my removal ?

KrzyMoose

10-15-2005, 05:37 PM

The Level 4 judge there says it's still a 1/1, even if it's activated after Humility hits, regardless of timestamp, because Factory isn't a continuous ability, whereas Humility is.

And thanks.

Regardless, they saved me quite a few times. Switching out Vengeance for Disenchant was definitely the right play. My board was pretty decent too, though I never used Rule of Law or True Believer, everything else had it's moment(s).

ElvenTitz

10-15-2005, 05:53 PM

I would like to hear more detailed report. How disenchants instead of Vengence helped you?

Ridiculous Hat

10-15-2005, 06:16 PM

The Level 4 judge there says it's still a 1/1, even if it's activated after Humility hits, regardless of timestamp, because Factory isn't a continuous ability, whereas Humility is.
If that's what he told you, that is wrong. Continuous effects are any effects that happen for longer than when a spell is resolving. I wouldn't blame the judge for not knowing as humility is one of the most confusing cards ever printed, but Factory's effect is continuous.

KrzyMoose

10-15-2005, 08:01 PM

I would like to hear more detailed report. How disenchants instead of Vengence helped you?
I didn't really take notes... but every match played pretty much the same way - try to resolve an early Wrath/Humility, and maintain board control.

Disenchant helped because it's cheaper, and I really never needed a sweeper(other than Wrath, which is still cheaper). In Game 1 against Madness, which took us 40! minutes, after I threw down a Humility, he got a Jitte going early. It probably would have been game, had I not gotten rid of it. Then of course, he got another one, and I managed to stall him off with a couple of Decrees until I found another one.

Once you Wrath, there isn't a whole lot you need Vengeance for. And between Wrath, Shards, and Swords, creatures are easy to take care of. Equipments(namely Jitte and SoFI) are a bitch, and when Vengeance hits, it's too late.

Null Rods helped a lot with this, as in Round 4 against WW, and T4 against Dryad, where their equipment and Scroll became useless.

Anyway, as for the round I lost against Goblins, I won Game 1 easily. He got the nuts draw in Game 2, and I got stuck on three land. Game 4, he got the nuts again. But, I was hold a Wrath and a Humility in hand, and got the Humility out on Turn 4, when he had a Chief and Driver and a couple of Vials. And something in my subconscious told me to Wrath instead, because he might've been splashing for Disenchant/Naturalize(he'd never fetched anything other than Mountains, nor showed anysigns of splash). But needless to say, I played Humility, and he preceded to fetch for a Taiga for the Naturalize. He then played another Driver and Matron, and dealt exactly enough to kill me. I would have won, too, had I lived that extra turn. But, you win some, you lose some. And I'm thankful I lost, because, if I had won, I would have been paired with Life(piloted by the World Champ) and gotten screwed.

Other than that, it was a pretty easy day.

As for the SB:
Exalteds helped against Madness
Null Rods against WW, Madness, Dryad(Cursed Scroll is a bitch)
Chalice against WW(Chalice for 2 = gg), Dryad
RoP:R against Goblins, Dryad
Rule of Law against nothing
True Believer against nothing

ElvenTitz

10-17-2005, 02:59 AM

I want to go on discussion stated in "All consuming qestion" topic.
How does armageddon work in this deck, its mainboard or sideboard option. Drop angel and armageddon ? Im not sure it would work so fine as you suggest because he runs 4 BOP 4 wall of roots wich could help him stabilize, i know i can wrath them away but regardless of that i would like to see an armageddon decklist. It seems like interesting option.
Why i dont like Maze of Ith - it dosnt give me whita mana, i think i will end up using it regardless of my like/dont like. My non basics looks like : 4 Seculded Steppe, 1 Karakas, 1 Kor Haven, 1 Maze of Ith, 16 Plains

jrp

10-17-2005, 09:57 AM

@ElvenTitz
You probably don't want to play Armageddon in this deck. You need your lands more than your opponent needs his/hers. Actually, Armageddon is a decent sideboard card against this deck, due to the fact that your win conditions (Decree, Dragon, Angel) are mana intensive, and outside of Mindstone you have no acceleration, or non-land mana-producing cards.

I also do not like the use of a bunch of non-basic lands. One of the strengths of this deck is that it doesn't care about Wasteland. By adding a bunch of non-basics, Wasteland could randomly hate you out of games that you should have won.

ElvenTitz

10-17-2005, 11:51 AM

@Jrp
you are wrong.
A) I searching solution against English Breafast, this is why i include thouse lands
B) In my store, no one plays wastelands, dont ask why, i dont know.
Read my posts for more details... im in very specific situation that i cant solve alone.

My deck need solution not against the "world common metagame, where you can run into goblins with rishadan ports and wastelands", i need solution against my meta (wich i alredy explained in details) and use cards that work effecteve.

bigbear102

10-18-2005, 02:37 AM

Well, I guess this is a pretty decent deck, cuz I just piloted it to a Top 2 finish in a GPT also. I posted a report in the Tourney Reports and Announcements, so you can look there.

I have to say that Armageddon would be horrible in this deck. There is no other deck out there that needs land more than this one.

@Humility/Factory: I'm not sure about any new rulings, but in Top 4 the judges watched me tell my opponent that Factory only swings for 1 with it out, and never said a word.

@Disenchant: I think this deck will need to play MD disenchant effects once Suppression Field hits the scene. Paying 4 to cycle Eternal Dragon will be a bitch, I promise you that, and it comes down turn 2, so they could drop it before you are able to respond. Replacing Vengeance might not be a bad idea, but I do also like the idea of having 6 sweepers. I might cut 1 vengeance and 1 furnace for 2 MD disenchants, and relegate the 3rd to the board.

FakeSpam

10-18-2005, 11:25 AM

A) I searching solution against English Breafast, this is why i include thouse lands
I'm confused. Why on earth are you losing to FEB?

troopatroop

10-18-2005, 12:13 PM

FEB should have absolutely nothing against this deck. You could play wasteland in your deck to foil it. They attempt to go off and you waste their land to make shapeshifter an idiot. Humility wrecks them. Shards Wrecks them. STP wrecks them.

This deck beats the pants off of Survival. FEB is a more fragile and weak survival deck than anything else. Wombat should Crush FEB.

midnightAce

10-18-2005, 02:32 PM

There seems to be A LOT of confusion surrounding Humility after the layer changes. Seeing how Humility is essential in games vs aggro varients, I think somebody needs to get ruling from a high level judge and post it here, rulings on common situations such as Factory under Humility, different kind of pump under Humility, etc.

ElvenTitz

10-18-2005, 02:43 PM

He included medling mages in his decklist thats make me win alot harder by now ! Its something like : meddling mage naming sword... i try cast wrath... force of will. Tradewind rider... GG for me. Or punch throught with akroma-phage, covered with force of will.
its hard, people, trust me.

Elven: As opposed to actually yelling at you like everyone else is here. Here are some suggestions.

1. Play Crucible / Wasteland: This forces the FEB player to find the Quirion Ranger before going off to prevent you from screwing with the combo.

2a. Abeyence is your friend!! Read Abeyence, then read it again. That's right it stops Survival, Volrath's Shapeshifter, Force of Will, Tradewind Rider, and anything that he can chuck at you. It cantrips and lets you clear some nasty things that just appeared. Save them until you need to do that.

2b. Phyrexian Furnace is especially nasty in this matchup.

3. This is huge, learn the timing of the combo. If he swings with the shifter and birds let him go throught the combo and when phage hits the yard then mess with him.

Timing goes as follows:
Akroma attacks
First strike damage on the stack
Phage gets discarded (If you go beyond this you lost)
Phage does the damage

4. This is especially important in this format. Learn about his manabase as much as possible. Most FEB decks are equal to if not worse than ATS manabases. Attack the manabase and you usually will win 50% of the games alone.

ElvenTitz

10-19-2005, 01:26 AM

I know how combo works and i know rules quite well, the reason why i amnt judge now, i was playing 16 best world pros with my and temmates legacy deck (we had RW goblins, Burn, Charbelcher and Wombat, i cant just miss my chance to play with Oliver Rulel, Masashi etc...) in gunsling ( i was planning going to pass judge test on russia language 9e relase). All im saying here not just my imagination, i really tested my wombat and encounterd this problems.
Why humility and wrath after abeyance dont work ? Because its turn six, and he knows that too, before that a single counter is enought to kill me with a huge chance, if its not, he always can force combo again on his turn.
Medling mages ruins swords by naming them (he dont attack with them, so i cant winshards them)
Then combo and my removal gets countered. Chiss, How i want to play MWS, but my computer died and i now using my old P233 with 32MB and it dont have enought memory to rune the program, i think ill be on mws next week so i cant prove its the worst MU till i get chance to show you online. Till then ill try to explain that.

t3h.sWaRm

10-19-2005, 07:29 PM

Just a few questions about the deck:
Could you tell me why you have 4 Phyrexian Furnace and 4 Renewed Faith maindeck?
Is 4 Decree of Justice too many?
What are the Null Rods in the board for?
Is there any way for this deck to deal with decks that don't rely heavily on creatures(Landstill most of all)?

Sorry if you answered all these questions before, but any help would be appreciated.

KrzyMoose

10-19-2005, 08:04 PM

This deck beats Landstill. Plain and simple. They can't counter our threats. Our draw engine (and kill condition) cycles, which they can't stop. Sure, let them drop a Standstill and sit under it. It only helps us. We just sit back, cycle Dragon to build up a mana base, and draw more cards than them until we're able to cast a decent DoJ.

Renewed Faith draws cards(and gains life). In some cases, it can be a much needed life boost.

Furnace is great at hating 'yards. It also draws cards. (see a pattern?)

Null Rod is in there to deal with whatever comes my way. The hose equipment, Ravager Affinity(I guarantee that in every tournament you attend, at least one person will be playing it), and help against Belcher. (And, in the case of my Top 4 match, against Cursed Scroll).

t3h.sWaRm

10-20-2005, 06:55 PM

Alright, thanks for the reply. I'm still not convinced that 4 Furnaces are necessary MD. The only decks that I can think of that these effect would be Reanimator and Survival varients, both not really played much. Either way I have no card to replace them with yet so I will keep them in for now. I can see how the Renewed Faiths could help a lot against the gobs matchup, stalling until you have them pretty much beat.
BTW is there currently an optimal list?

KrzyMoose

10-20-2005, 07:05 PM

It's not a question of what it's effective against. It's just cheap draw, that happens to have a bonus.

Slay

10-20-2005, 07:15 PM

Phyrexian Furnace is there to shore up some potentially bad matchups. Decks like Survival and Gro have the potential to completely explode out of the gates, and beat you before you can apply the hate. Phyrexian Furnace shuts down Anger and Squee, making recursion more difficult, and it shuts off Gro's average threshold by around 3-4 turns.This gives you the time to topdeck answers and gain control. Think of it as a Renewed Faith for control matchups.
-Slay

midnightAce

10-20-2005, 07:15 PM

Notice that Furnace also has the ability to strip Landstill's yard of lands and ED, Crucible is no good if there is no land to recur. :cool:

bigbear102

10-21-2005, 01:20 AM

Furnace is also very good in the Solidarity matchup, as it shuts down their Flash of Insight. Many people don't realize how important Flash is to Solidarity, but shutting it down takes away their best in-combo search card.

This deck beats Landstill by playing 4x Decree of Justice and Abeyance. I did this at the GPT the other day, you cycle Decree for a lot, then on their upkeep Abeyance them, so they can't Wrath. You can also use the Abeyance to stop their Stifle so they have absolutely no way of stopping it. They also usually side out a lot of creature removal, so then you board in Angel for Humility and smash face.

Renewed Faith really is one of the worst cards in the deck, but it is needed against goblins. Granted Goblins is your best matchup, they did drop me to 3 on their fourth turn (they went first, so i didn't even have a chance to wrath) so having some insurance is good, it also cantrips and gives you some extra life for the hell of it.

ElvenTitz

10-21-2005, 10:06 AM

Erh, gentelmen, seems you complitly ignore me and my posts. What to do against FEB that packs medling mages. Its inpossible to kill it without proper preperations.

No, abeyance wont help you till turn 6, by that time its too late to do anything.
No, humility wont help you, coz it would get countered any you will die next turn.
No, Wrath of God wont help you, see "humility".
No, Swords wont help, coz Meddling Mages name it.
No, Wing shards wont help coz he will send stupid BOPS to attack you too (by that time you dont have mana to incrase spell count by you self)

Chongz

10-21-2005, 10:21 AM

Anyways, yeah I didn't give this deck enough credit at first. There's a little work that needs to be done here to support the GP Meta, namely beating Solidarity.

I also think an Etutor board wouldn't be that bad, and Extraplanar Lens has also proven strong in testing.

Who has seriously tested the Solidarity matchup? I currently have 4 Orim's Chant, 2 Trinisphere, 2 Chalice, 4 Angel, and 1 E. Tutor that I bring in against the Solidarity matchup. I'd like to know who's been extensively testing the Solidarity matchup, and anything they found that proved hopeful.

The lists without the E. Tutors proved to be strong, but with E. Tutors alot of matchups just seem better with E.Tutor, as you have access to hate against the entire metagame in 1 card. Sure it's card disadvantage, but I haven't had it hurt me all that bad. You're still filtering through cards by cycling, and having silver bullets against basically anything you're going to play against has been amazing.

I'm still testing, but I'm extremely happy with E.Tutors right now.

Edited By braves54321 on 1129910389

Braves54321

10-21-2005, 11:59 AM

Erh, gentelmen, seems you complitly ignore me and my posts. What to do against FEB that packs medling mages. Its inpossible to kill it without proper preperations.

No, abeyance wont help you till turn 6, by that time its too late to do anything.
No, humility wont help you, coz it would get countered any you will die next turn.
No, Wrath of God wont help you, see "humility".
No, Swords wont help, coz Meddling Mages name it.
No, Wing shards wont help coz he will send stupid BOPS to attack you too (by that time you dont have mana to incrase spell count by you self)
While some of the posts have been rather harsh towards your question of how to beat Feb, you seem to not take the advice you are given. Saying that any answer you play will be countered is a problem that this deck cannot answer, unless you want to splash a color and play your own counters (which completely changes the deck, thus not making it mono white control).

Look at the above post by Watcher, he has played Feb for a while and did try to help.

Other than that maybe you should try astral slide. With all the cycling spells it can remove whatever is bothering you for a turn and cycling can't be countered.

Watcher487

10-21-2005, 12:45 PM

No, abeyance wont help you till turn 6, by that time its too late to do anything.

No, Wing shards wont help coz he will send stupid BOPS to attack you too (by that time you dont have mana to incrase spell count by you self)
Abeyance is an instant you can use it on your opponent's turn. It's not good to combine with Wrath of God. Abeyance works with Swords and Wing Shards.

If he is attacking with both his BOPS and his shifter wing shards is just as amazing. It doesn't matter if he attacks with 1 or a billion creatures cards.

You let the damage hit the stack, and if he cycles Phage you play your Wing Shards when it resolves. Now this sets it up so that Phage is no longer on top of his library, BOPS is. Sure you take 6 damage but it's not Phage dealing the damage.

Now considering what the FEB player is playing, G/U/w(Meddling Mage)/r(Flashfires). He is most likely playing something similar to the old ATS manabase.

Here is what I suggest you do, all of the *** cards you have to go after. Run the Crucible / Wasteland (Crucible also helps against Flashfires). And if your still worried run Disenchant in the sideboard as well.

Now, I don't know how fast the FEB deck that your playing against is winning. If it's 4-5th turn it's most likely just running only 4 Force of Wills. Don't hold on to your instant removal, if he goes Meddling Mage for Plow(2-3rd turn) then Plow his Birds or his Quirion Ranger in response. If the clock usually ends up being 7-10th turn I would have to wonder how he survives the other matchups.

FEB is a very difficult deck to play against. And everyone saying that it isn't really hasn't paid any attention to me in the past 4 months. But you should be 55+/45- in your favor in the first game, especially with Crucible/Waste. Post Board depends on what he brings in. Hypnox is nasty but needs to survive the Phyrexian Furnace.

Now the fastest hand I have ever had with FEB is 3rd turn. And considering the format that's suicidal.

Attack his mana base. Attack his mana base. Attack his mana base. There is more than enough reasoning behind that statement.

ElvenTitz

10-21-2005, 02:42 PM

Well, you suggestions are taken. The only problem : i have aggro metagame and seven red decks, i can win them all but i cant win Breakfast, adding Crucible + Wastelands would cripple my Mono-RED match-ups.
He has another options by countering my instant removal, he runs 4 meddling mages and do uses surevilval of the fittest to fetch. By two meddling mages naming swords and wing shards he can complitly controll game and just counter wrath or humility. I know... i have a tinny chance, but most likele he wont be in hurry and play controll with me. Even on turn 7-10 its still okay to go off for him. Do you really think Wastelad + Crucible is that necesarry ? Do you have apprentice ? My normal computer is broken so i cant run MWS, its takes too much memory (right now im on P233).
The main problem with wingshards - i dont always have abeyance to cast/i dont have mana avialable enought/meddling mage names it/he counters it. Maybe i dont belive in my chances and lose because of that ? I dont think so, i go with the same man with my burn deck with lare winnig steack, so i dont think its in faith. Its in the deck.

lynxcat

10-21-2005, 03:00 PM

If he's willing to wait until turn 7-10 to go off, then maybe you should just dig/mull aggressively for Humility.

midnightAce

10-21-2005, 03:12 PM

What about Chalice for two? I admit it's quite slow, but looking at his deck that you have described: SotF, Mage, Counters, Chalice for two absolutely kicks him in the face. If Phage kill is his primary kill condition, then even janky spells such as Holy Day, or even Embolden is entirely sensible SB choices. Furnace also comes down on turn 1, so does Crypt, these two completely owns FEB.

ElvenTitz

10-21-2005, 03:24 PM

not only phage, usually he wins with Tradewind raider (its in FEB, its in rught place in our meta). He digs for one and bounces my lands. Sometimes he wins with phage. One game was complitly retarded. He hardcasted akroma, i killed it bajilion times but he got it back with genesis and countered humility. ( i had no decrees coz i sided out one for akroma's vengance... how ironicaly :))

I would like to hear your opinions about my thoughts of improvment. Problem is not killing combo (akroma phage), problem is tradewind rider. I was considering of adding :
3 Astral Slider
3 Lightning Rift
4 Pletau
2 Sacred Foundry
But changed my mind... No improvments.

This deck (in its current build) cant handle tradewind rider baccked up with meddling mages. Its need some new tech inside, to work.

bigbear102

10-21-2005, 03:53 PM

If you are gonna add that stuff, look at the astroglide thread, as that deck is a very good r/w control deck.
Also, how many Phyrexian Furnace do you play? Dropping that turn 1 should be able to shut down FEB. If they counter it you are likely to be able to then cast STP, Shards, or Abeyance. You also have to remember that Abeyance stops Shapeshifter and Survival discard. If your opponent doesn't have Phage in hand, when he survivals to get her, cast Abeyance in response and you'll stop the combo for a turn. At that point you should be able to do something to kill the shapeshifter, seeing as you do still have at least 17 cards to kill/shutdown the combo, plus furnace to completely house him.

@E. Tutor: Have people been getting good results with tutor? I know a lot of people are against it, but have honestly wanted to try it for a while.

ElvenTitz

10-21-2005, 03:58 PM

I run 4 Phyrexian Furnaces. I dorp turn 1 furnace, he lets it resolve... then begin the stuff with tradewind raider or... discards phage, i remove it, he discards phyrexian dreadnought. GG for me on next turn or twi. Yes... it wins me only one or two turns before he will win. Furnace wont complitly house him, he will just fill grave with trash and fetchlands.
Furnace is quite useful, its helps me a bit, but it wont win the game by itself. I need something to deal with tradewind rider. Dont say "paly needle or something in that style", i tried it also. It dont always help. Even if it is, the phage akroma plan isnt stopped, if phage akroma plan is stopped, them phyrexian dradnout plan isnt stopeed, if phyrexian dradnout plain is stopped... then i win i guess. All i have to do is drop enought lands.... You know ? its so much 20/80 first game. 30/70 second. I cant even choose proper sideboard.

I honestly cannot imagine what the FEB list looks like, 50% of the deck is creature removal, and both Karakas and Kor Haven kicks Phage/Akroma's sorry sexy ass. As far as my understanding of FEB goes, it generally requires SotF on the table and has only 4 FoW to back that up. Since you seem only need Sacred Ground against Flashfire tech that all red decks are packing, your entire SB can be devoted into killing it. Pithing Needle stops SotF, dead. Add 2 or more Crypts if 4 Furnace is not enough. Honestly Crypt > Morning Tide, it comes down on turn 0, and doesn't kill your own EDs.

*Note, my understanding of the rule is that, if Dreadnaught is on the top of the grave, and you cast Shapeshifter, that Shifter dies unless you sac a total of power = 12 amount of creatures. Isn't that the reason why Hypnox's CIPT triggers when it's the top card in the grave? ???

ElvenTitz

10-21-2005, 05:55 PM

Unless shapeshifter is alredy on the table and you find dreadnaught with enlighted tutor or survilade. Well, our FEB is very techy FEB, blast it :)). It runs Meddling Mages, Enlighted Tutors, its creatures are 2x Tradewind Raiders, 1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath, 1x Phage, the Untouchbible, 1x Phyrexian Dreadnought, 1x Quirion Ranger, 4x Wall of Roots, 4xBirds of Paradise, 1x Squee, Goblin Nabob, 1x Genesis. Basic theory of FEB distruction wont work against it, coz its very resilent. Okay, he can answer kor haven and karakas. 2 volrash shapeshifters and phyrexian dreadnought on top. He can answer removal with meddling mages etc etc. Its hard nut. But i belive the solution exists... somewhere, i came to call for help.

After side he sides in 2 gorilla shamans, they will kill crypts but they wont kill morning tide. When FEB plays with crypt in play he plays more carefully and you never remove anything important (you wont catch akroma and pahge at single time), when you play morning tide its more unpredictble. Maybe i sound like moron who plays 2nd week in magic, but i play the damn game for five years(yet i brooke for 3 years, so its around 2 years). Crypt is not 100% > morning tide. + I rarly really care about dragons in this MU coz reviving them = suicide coz no mana on removal.

Eldariel

10-21-2005, 06:41 PM

You could try a certain removal spell named "Last Breath" (it's generally bad, but might be just what you ordered) for an additional way of killing the Mages to diversify your answerbase to get past his Mage-bannings, if you're really that desperate about the match-up.

ElvenTitz

10-22-2005, 03:15 AM

Last Breath is excellent idea, it can deal with mages and it can deal with tradewind raiders and he cant even get them back ! Excellent solution. I think it ceretanly improve our MU, i have to test it. Its also dosnt looks crippling my other mu, coz mostly its goblins or burn, in both, that cards is usable.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-23-2005, 04:57 PM

It occurs to me that if I see another post about FEB in this thread, I will come to where you live with a hatchet. And there will be a fucking reckoning.

My aim is Doomska. Contact me. I will play you with Wombat on MWS and show you why you are flat-out insane if you think FEB is a trouble matchup.

lynxcat

10-23-2005, 06:51 PM

The more I play this deck, the more convinced I am that it needs Disenchant maindeck in place of Phyrexian Furnaces. I keep losing to decks like Stax and Flame Vault because I can't possibly deal with their dangerous cards fast enough. Turn 2 or 3 Smokestack is a kick in the teeth. I've also lost a number of games to randomness, like the other day when I got smashed by Jack Black because I couldn't deal with Staff of Domination. Looking at the current meta, Furnaces only help against RGSA, Landstill and some of the newer combo decks like Golden Grahams and Iggy Pop. Disenchant would be equally good against most of these. I can't see Furnaces meriting a maindeck slot anymore. Unless you're really worried about FEB.

lyle h

10-23-2005, 08:15 PM

I would think the best place to fit MD Disenchant effect would go in the slot of Akromas Vengeance. Akromas Vengeance does help out in matches against decks like Angel Stompy that pack a lot of permanents that are recurring threats not hosed by Humility/Wrath, but it has the distinct disadvantage of destroying your Humility. The fact that in a field as wide open as the GP will be, having a MD effect that simply wins the game against some decks and if it doesn't draws a card is in my opinion to hard to cut.

Slay

10-23-2005, 09:50 PM

I cut the Vengeances for Disenchants and never looked back. The format has simply gotten too fast for Vengeance, and the need for an instant-speed removal spell especially for some mean thing like Tangle Wire is very necessary.
-Slay

bigbear102

10-24-2005, 01:05 PM

Can I ask IBA what his new "secret tech" against solidarity is? Cuz I really want to play this at Philly, but I need a way to beat combo, mainly solidarity, but also Belcher and Flame Vault (the latter two are hosed by Needle, so it may make an appearance). Right Now it's looking like Chalice is a definate inclusion in the board, as dropping it for 1 against Solidarity and Burn wins games, and dropping it for 2 against every other deck seems decent. Is Rule of Law a good idea? I have been told no because it comes down on turn 3, and you would have to play 3-4 to see it consistently enough to have an effect.

Because Wombat wins the game on about turn 30, so the only real way to stop them from winning is to play proactive hate cards and protect the crap out of them.
-Slay

bigbear102

10-24-2005, 03:57 PM

Ok, First of all, Gaea's Blessing is not a very good hate card for Solidarity, because if you run into a competent player they play around it anyway. Also there is the fact that it is off color, and only serves a purpose against one deck.

I know how to SB against solidarity, so it's not just normal suggestions I'm looking for. IBA mentioned in another thread that he had tech against Solidarity that he wasn't sure if he'd let out, and I want it!!! He supposedly went 2-0 against the deck, so I assume it's some good stuff. So basically I just want to know whatever he did, and I'd appreciate it if I knew in time to actually build the deck before Philly :)

KrzyMoose

10-25-2005, 06:37 AM

Rule of Law, Chalice(set to 1), and True Believer are all you need. That's 8 SB slots, and devoting more to a single matchup isn't a great idea.

bigbear102

10-25-2005, 12:48 PM

I don't really like the True Believer, as it is only good on one matchup, kind of like Gaea's Blessing. It is nice to get another beater against Solidarity, but it's a very narrow card. It might be ok agianst burn, but it's to easily removed by them.

KrzyMoose

10-25-2005, 03:49 PM

The fact that it's useful in only one matchup(not counting Burn) is not terribly important. Because this deck is pretty much set against Aggro, it only has to worry about various combo. Believer works against (almost) all combo. Now, the fact that it is a creature has it's positives and negatives. It can serve as an early beater, but it's also vulnerable to creature hate. You can choose to run Ivory Mask instead, but it does costs double.

Remember, though, you aren't depending solely on one of them. You are bringing in other answers.

Mad Zur

10-25-2005, 05:21 PM

Solidarity has access to an answer for any given hate card, especially creatures, so in order to be truly effective, you've got to stop them from finding or playing their answer (i.e., High Tide, Reset, Meditate, Turnabout shouldn't happen). The best hate cards are always the ones that do this on their own, and since we're talking about mono-white control (i.e. you can't do this with the cards in the maindeck), those are absolutely the only kind that will work. Cards like Pyrostatic Pillar, Chains of Mephistopheles, In the Eye of Chaos and Ichneumon Druid have a way of protecting themselves. Those are good Solidarity-hate cards.

True Believer comes up in every discussion about a white deck on this site, but it isn't good. It doesn't at all stop them from answering it, and neither does the rest of your deck. It doesn't deplete their current resources, it doesn't force them to win before they can build up resources, and it doesn't limit the spells they can play by time or total quantity. It doesn't actually affect the Solidarity player at all unless he is already severely restricted in mana or cards. Even if that ever happened in this matchup, you would rather play a hate card that did it for you just in case something went wrong - if a Chains, Pillar, In the Eye, or Druid resolves, they're in trouble no matter what, but True Believer does nothing at all by itself except force them to win in ten turns.

scarface

10-25-2005, 05:21 PM

...or you could just go with gilded light. It works against all combo and can be mainboarded because it cycles. It can also counter one burn spell, which is essentially what true believer does anyway. If combo is a metagame concern, I suggest dropping renewed faiths or furnaces to make room for guilded light in the mb. Mishra's Factories are also extremely helpful in keeping combo players on a clock.

Edit: posted at the same time as Mad Zur

Zilla

10-25-2005, 06:55 PM

I suggest dropping renewed faiths or furnaces to make room for guilded light in the mb.
Gilded Light used to be in the maindeck. It's decent, but not totally necessary. As an aside, I'd call Renewed Faith one of the best cards in the deck. I'd never suggest removing them. They are absolutely essential in carrying you from the early game to the late game against aggro. Once you're in the lategame, you're solid. Getting there is the hard part.

scarface

10-25-2005, 09:06 PM

I suggest dropping renewed faiths or furnaces to make room for guilded light in the mb.
Gilded Light used to be in the maindeck. It's decent, but not totally necessary. As an aside, I'd call Renewed Faith one of the best cards in the deck. I'd never suggest removing them. They are absolutely essential in carrying you from the early game to the late game against aggro. Once you're in the lategame, you're solid. Getting there is the hard part.
Renewed Faith is excellent against aggro, but quite mediocre against combo and control. Gilded Light may not help in the aggro or control matches (w/ the exception of MBC), but it's awesome against combo. Right now, the deck has little trouble crushing aggro, but combo is generally an auto-loss. If nothing more, at least replace the Furnaces with Gilded Lights, as the Furnaces are highly conditional and don't improve the combo matchup at all.

Alfred

10-25-2005, 11:28 PM

Guys, if you really, really want to get a better game against solidarity post board, just include 4 fetches and a single plateau, then board in 4 boils. This way, you still aren't vulnerable to wasteland, but have a semi-decent answer to them after boarding.

Zilla

10-25-2005, 11:31 PM

Renewed Faith is excellent against aggro, but quite mediocre against combo and control. Gilded Light may not help in the aggro or control matches (w/ the exception of MBC), but it's awesome against combo. Right now, the deck has little trouble crushing aggro, but combo is generally an auto-loss. If nothing more, at least replace the Furnaces with Gilded Lights, as the Furnaces are highly conditional and don't improve the combo matchup at all.
I would argue that it has little problem with aggro largely because of Renewed Faith.

Guys, if you really, really want to get a better game against solidarity post board, just include 4 fetches and a single plateau, then board in 4 boils. This way, you still aren't vulnerable to wasteland, but have a semi-decent answer to them after boarding.
Not even mono-red decks use Boil as an anti-Solidarity measure. In a deck without mana accelleration, REB, Pyroblast, Sirocco, and Pillar are all better Solidarity hate cards. That said, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. White is not lacking the cards to beat Solidarity. It has True Believer, Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, and Rule of Law as options to it. The real problem isn't the lack of available options, it that you have to run at least eight of them in your board for them to be truly effective.

Slay

10-26-2005, 03:12 PM

Renewed Faith is excellent against aggro, but quite mediocre against combo and control. Gilded Light may not help in the aggro or control matches (w/ the exception of MBC), but it's awesome against combo. Right now, the deck has little trouble crushing aggro, but combo is generally an auto-loss. If nothing more, at least replace the Furnaces with Gilded Lights, as the Furnaces are highly conditional and don't improve the combo matchup at all.
I would argue that it has little problem with aggro largely because of Renewed Faith.
I've been smashing aggro without using Renewed Faith. I cut it for an third ROP Red and 3 Mind Stones. The change has worked out favorably. It cuts out the manascrew that could possibly occur and gives me a bit more of a chance that I win the game straight up against Burn decks. Also, this deck lacks a quick answer to Lackey, excluding Swords(which you might not always see). Mind Stone accelerates you into the third-turn Wrath/Humility, allowing you to cap the damage quicker and establish a better buffer.

Renewed Faith is a good card, but lifegain sucks. It's way too reactive.
-Slay

Braves54321

10-26-2005, 03:57 PM

Last few posts about the FEB matchup deleted. This is becoming a focal point of the discussion over the last few pages and straying further and further off topic. Look to the last few pages where the matchup has been discussed thoroughly. Any further discussion on the FEB vs MWC matchup will be heavily moderated.

-braves

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-26-2005, 04:32 PM

On Renewed Faith: My reasons for keeping it in at the moment are largely because I don't like having so many of my cycling cards fail to work under a Standstill. This may not be a fully justifiable fear, but I don't believe Landstill to be as dead as some. I also like the added bonus versus non-Red aggro decks over more Runes. It also punches Trix in the kidneys. For these reasons I've currently cut Phyrexian Furnace from the main.

Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1130358799

scarface

10-26-2005, 08:48 PM

I know it was mentioned a few pages back, but I don't believe chalice of the void has been given enough consideration. I believe solidarity would be a much easier matchup if Rabid Wombat had 4 chalices and 4 chants in the sb to complement 4 abeyances and 4 gilded lights in the main. Also, this should not be considered overloading the sb with solidarity hate, since chalice is excellent against burn and combo in general, while chant can come in handy against goblins and storm combo. Any thoughts?

Shadow

10-26-2005, 09:39 PM

Has anyone considered splashing red? (I didn't read the whole 11 pages.) Adding Slice and Dice and maybe even Pyroclasm to the main seems lie a pretty cool idea. You wouldn't need Rune any more because you have so much removal, and it gives you a sideboard for Solidarity.

@Braves54321
Understood. But the problem dosnt goes away with heavy moderation. Its like burning the books.

Please refrain from posting incoherent gibberish. I have no idea what you are saying. Make sure you use proper grammar when posting and follow the site guidelines. - Jander

And whats so difficult in understanding what im saying ? No matter, no flaming. Whatever you say, my captan.

bigbear102

10-27-2005, 02:36 PM

@Shadow: Adding red to the deck is not a good idea, it makes the manabase much less stable, and especially with your manabase, makes turn 1 swords much less likely. Taking out Runes also makes your burn matchup an almost autoloss. As I told the last person who suggested this, look for the astroglide thread, it's about the best w/r control deck.

I have played Chalice of the Void, it was in my board at the GPT, and it won me a game against WW when I set it at 2 (every threat except angel in his deck cost 2). It is an amazing choice, as it stops burn very easily, slows down solidarity enough to stop them, and just randomly hoses other decks. You can also set it at 0 to slow belcher enough to stop them. I highly endorse CotV, I play 3 in the board.

Shadow

10-27-2005, 10:06 PM

I have had no problems at all getting the turn 1 Swords. Also the burn match-up shouldn't be all that prevalent considering that it sucks, but you do have MD GL and Abeyance. Plus SB Angel and COP:Red. You shouldn't have any problems at all.

This is the SB I have been fucking around with:

4 Rule of Law
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Exalted Angel
3 COP: Red

As far as I can see it has only improved match-ups, not weakened them. I think you should probably test it before you discard it like that.

Slay

10-27-2005, 11:01 PM

Um, have you played the burn matchup? Without maindeck RoP: Red, your matchup is actually pretty bad. How long do you think you can stall a burn player from killing you? On a sidenote, how early can you goldfish 20 damage with this deck? I can get something like turn 9 if I hit all my land drops and get Eternal Dragon and Decree Tokens swinging ASAP. That's honestly not going to happen. Best case scenario they have 16 cards, 11 of which on average deal 3 damage to you, and you have 4 cards to stop them(Abeyance means they just play their instants in response), plus possibly Renewed Faith(if you're still playing it). In all honesty, without a way to shut them out of the match forever, eventually they will get enough burn to overcome and win. Maindeck Runes are very necessary. I would cut Gilded Lights in a second for Runes.
-Slay

Shadow

10-28-2005, 12:55 AM

How much of a presence does burn really have? I haven't seen it do well in any major tournaments. Maybe a T8 here or there, but no major finishes. I doubt the deck is something that needs to be MDed for; SB should be more than fine.

MasterBlaster

10-28-2005, 03:12 AM

Shadow: Burn/Sligh are fairly popular. But, if you play the deck and you never see your opponents drop mountains than obviously ROP:Red won't matter in your local metagame. Just keep in mind this decks slow clock and the fact that Burn can goldfish at turn 4/5.

forschizzle

10-29-2005, 01:49 PM

I have been doing some extensive testing with this deck recently and a card that I found to be very helpful is rain of blades. I run three MD right now and they are great. They give you more outs for a first turn lackey, they kill every card in r/g survival(which is in my meta), they kill conclaves, act as an instant speed wrath of god if you have a humility out, and I'm sure they can do much more. Maybe some of you guys should test that out and tell me if I'm crazy or not. Peace

fearphage

10-30-2005, 12:12 AM

i would suggest shahrazad (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=ArabianNights&name=shahrazad) as an answer to combo. very few combo decks can combo twice in a game. this would include iggy pop, solidarity, belcher, etc. none of them are made to combo twice.

Slay

10-30-2005, 01:00 AM

Considering how you lose against combo hands-down the first game, if you play Shahrazad the second game your opponent has two games to run the course of 30-40 minutes. Your deck doesn't win fast. Even if you win the subgame, you still have to win the maingame, and the combo player can milk the subgame for all its worth before quitting or winning. In reality, if you play Shahrazad during the second game down 0-1, you're going to run out of time. And there is absolutely 100% no possibility of you winning the match.
-Slay

ElvenTitz

10-30-2005, 01:55 PM

How about keepeing shahrazads in side and use them to stall second game if you won the first ?

Slay

10-30-2005, 01:58 PM

That's irrelevent because you'll never win the first game against combo.
-Slay

bigbear102

10-30-2005, 03:24 PM

Shaharazad would only be good if you played it maindeck (at least against combo) because it would prevent them from going off (hopefully). Something like Solidarity could probably go off anyway, in the subgame. If you played them in the side, like Slay said, it's irrelevent cuz you lose game 1.

I have been testing a new Ravnica card also, Festival of the Guildpact, it is Wx, prevent the next x damage, draw a card. If you go first, it stops lackey, it is a house late game against aggro or burn, it is a 1 cost cycler that actually makes Wing Shards better, personally I like it. I do still have to test Rain of Blades though, it sounds interesting.

Slay

10-30-2005, 09:11 PM

Bandage is better.

Bandage
W
Instant
Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature or player this turn.
Draw a card.
-Slay

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-31-2005, 06:21 AM

Bandage is better.

Bandage
W
Instant
Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature or player this turn.
Draw a card.
-Slay
Hmmm....

Y'know, I never considered that card before, as my memory was putting it at 1W for whatever reason.

But that might actually be worth running. It keeps off turn 1 Lackey, certainly.

fearphage

10-31-2005, 07:42 AM

glowrider (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=glowrider) is another answer for combo. not only does it slow their response but it speeds up your clock by beating for two every turn. it hurts this deck also but it would be ever more powerful when coupled with rule of law.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-31-2005, 06:32 PM

Indeed. My current anti-Solidarity sideboard tech is the following;

4x Sphere of Resistence
3x Glowrider
3x Rule of Law
3x Exalted Angel

with 2x Sacred Ground against Flashfires and the like. The primary use of the sideboard is to beat combo, and every card does it fairly well.

Alfred

11-01-2005, 02:16 AM

Sphere of Resistance looks like it could be a good deck to bring in against Gro, and other higher velocity (play a lot of spells) aggro-control decks.

bigbear102

11-02-2005, 02:16 PM

IBA: What is your current build? Your SB seems very solid, and I was just wondering what the numbers were on the MD at the moment, I am seriously considering this deck for GP Philly, seeing as it now beats essentially every deck in the format. I smacked burn around the other day, Game 1 and 2, you smacked my Stax around the other day, it just seems like we have found answers to a lot of the problem matches that we had before.

Is 2 Sacred Ground enough to stop all of the hate that I expect to see? As this deck ( and Angel Stax) becomes more popular Flash Fires is also going to be a lot more prevalent. I would think that adding another SG to the board might be beneficial.

Another thing I was thinking about (please don't hit me...) was the addition of a few Mishra's Factory, probably only 2. Seeing as the new ruling is that it doesn't get pwned by Humility, it could be VERY good. Also, your original choice in the deck, Genju of the Fields, has that changed with the ruling too? If so some more testing may be in line. It can only make the iffy matchups better, giving us more life against red decks, and more beaters against combo.

Jwo

11-03-2005, 11:17 AM

Hello everyone.

I have been watching this forum for a while and finally decided to particiapte.

I would first like to commend you on all of your work.

I understand that Rabid Wombat is a metagame deck, but I have been having trouble with rogue decks. Rogue decks including madness, elves (with goblin bombardment), and largely zombie infestation/squee/tog or akroma decks.

Goblins is a fairly good match-up. Burn is as well. Landstill is great. Solidarity is horrible (even with gilded light). RGSA is basically a bye with humility.

Maybe this is no longer an acceptable list, but it is very effective against a large number of the decks to beat. Are other people finding similar difficulty with rogue decks?

Thanks,

Jwo

l_neiman

11-03-2005, 12:04 PM

IBA: I know you mentioned a page or two back that you cut the Phyrexian Furnaces from the maindeck. Did you add something like 3 Mindstone and 1 ROP:Red, as Slay did when he cut Renewed Faith, or something else?

I agree with you that Faiths don't seem so bad, and can be good in matchups like Burn. Without Furnaces, though, it seems like the Orlove Reanimator matchup gets significantly worse, as well as against any potential Dredge-Togs that might appear, based on the deck's success at PT:LA.

Thoughts on cutting Furnaces?

Luis

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-03-2005, 01:21 PM

The thing is that there are a large number of good cycling cards available, really. Phyrexian Furnce, Mind Stone, Gilded Light, Festival of the Guildpact, Bandage, even Clear and Radiant's Judgement. I don't think of Rabid Wombat as being set in stone- a number of the card choices are invariable, but a large portion, over a third of the deck, is metagame friendly. I personally don't foresee a lot of graveyard interaction coming up or Zi-Reanimator swarming the format at Philly, so I'm not going to run Furnace. But if you consider it a metagame call, by all means. It's important not to get too set in a certain decklist, though- that's what makes control decks die. Adapt to face new threats.

Bandage adds fuel to Wing Shards and patches up one of the few holes in the Goblin matchup. This list is particularly aimed at beating Aggro and Aggro-Control, with the side answering Combo.

l_neiman

11-03-2005, 02:30 PM

21 lands? Hasn't that ever bitten you in the ass? It's true that you now have Bandage as 1cc cyclers, but still... I also think you'd be better served by running some Mind Stones, probably instead of 2 Vengeance and 1 Bandage, since they can cantrip, but they also accelerate you in the early turns and help set up turn 3 Wrath/Humility.

Luis

Deep Inside

11-03-2005, 03:34 PM

Now I'll try and participate as well, as I've recently decided to play this over RGSA and never having regretted it.

I played most of the time with 19 Plains and 4 Steppes, and I was constantly complaining about drawing way to much lands, so I think cutting some is a good choice.

But I have problems beating some random decks as well.

DI419

11-03-2005, 04:09 PM

The one thing that really frightens me about playing this deck is the mirror. It seems like you will always just wait for one person to deck. So, what happens when two good Wombat players play each other?

l_neiman

11-03-2005, 04:09 PM

Sure, cutting one land to go down to 22 seems fine, but going down one additional land is what I'm not sure about...

Even against Goblins, which is one of our best matchups, a land-light draw that forces us to play a Steppe instead of cycle it, combined with one of their Wastelands might just spell game over. That's why I was tempted to cut the Steppes from the deck entirely, to avoid giving Goblins any kind of window of opportunity, though it obviously makes Flashfires even worse for us (if anyone's running it).

Luis

Deep Inside

11-03-2005, 04:11 PM

Nothing happens. Thats the problem. (i know, I'm not funny :))
But I've asked myself that question too. So lets talk everyone out of playing this deck :)
No, I suppose it comes down to one player not getting enough Swords to stop the other one's dragon

DI419

11-03-2005, 04:56 PM

I don't think Swords has anything to do with it. Dragon isn't really a creature anyway. I think there are two modes to victory:

1. Cast a massive decree, hope they don't have their own decree, and repeatedly abeyance in upkeep to stop them from removing the tokens. (you're probably more likely to win by deck check)

2. Play just enough cycling/draw to not get mana screwed/have enough decrees, and hope your opponent doesn't notice that you have 5 more cards in your library than he does until it's too late.

So, what happens if both players are paying attention to library size?

l_neiman

11-03-2005, 05:00 PM

I think there are two modes to victory:

1. Cast a massive decree, hope they don't have their own decree, and repeatedly abeyance in upkeep to stop them from removing the tokens. (you're probably more likely to win by deck check)

2. Play just enough cycling/draw to not get mana screwed/have enough decrees, and hope your opponent doesn't notice that you have 5 more cards in your library than he does until it's too late.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Your gameplan is to not miss any land-drops, and then try to get into a favorable position with Decrees and Abeyances and swing for a few turns.

Post-SB you definitely bring in the Exalted Angels, and maybe even the Glowriders, so you can mount an offensive. Mana/Decree advantage seem to be the key in the mirror. It seems more straightforward than the LandStill mirror, since there are no counters involved, so you essentially want to start resolving threats ASAP.

IBA: would you say this assessment is correct, by and large?

Luis

Jwo

11-03-2005, 06:10 PM

The thing is that there are a large number of good cycling cards available, really. Phyrexian Furnce, Mind Stone, Gilded Light, Festival of the Guildpact, Bandage, even Clear and Radiant's Judgement. I don't think of Rabid Wombat as being set in stone- a number of the card choices are invariable, but a large portion, over a third of the deck, is metagame friendly. I personally don't foresee a lot of graveyard interaction coming up or Zi-Reanimator swarming the format at Philly, so I'm not going to run Furnace. But if you consider it a metagame call, by all means. It's important not to get too set in a certain decklist, though- that's what makes control decks die. Adapt to face new threats.

Bandage adds fuel to Wing Shards and patches up one of the few holes in the Goblin matchup. This list is particularly aimed at beating Aggro and Aggro-Control, with the side answering Combo.
@IBA

I really like your build, especially your sideboard, but I must say that I have found bandages to be largely unneeded. I agree that they help with the 1st Turn Lackey, but even if that guy connects, you can still just play a turn 4 humility and win right there. Is the bandage card helpful in other match-ups. (I cannot believe it would be even decent vs. Burn/Sligh). I understand that it does cycle for 1 mana, so it is ok, but just looking for your analysis. Otherwise, my list largely resembes yours.

@Everyone

I think that Mindstone is a card that is not only becoming an option for me, but more of a necessity. Playing 3rd turn Wraths and Humilities is IMHO better than any other answer to that deck. Also, in many match-ups (read POST SB-Combo), accelerating out a quick Eternal Dragon or Angel is very good. I think that the accelerator needs more than a passing look. I would enjoy a discussion over mana acceleration in this deck.

Thanks,

Jwo

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-03-2005, 09:11 PM

That assessment of the mirror is largely correct, neiman, although going aggro with E. Dragons is advisable once you get upwards of eight or nine land.

I forgot to mention something very important about my build. It's designed to always be able to draw first. The only deck you've ever been worried about that extra tempo with is Goblins, but with 4 Renewed Faith and 4 Bandage (giving 8 answers to first turn Lackey), you're hindered very little by being on the draw. The light land count keeps in mind both the 7 1cc cyclers, and the fact that I'll be playing with that extra card.

Deep Inside

11-04-2005, 04:30 AM

I don't see how Renewed Faith is an answer to a lackey :)
You probably mean swords, or am I mistaken?

ElvenTitz

11-04-2005, 04:35 AM

I dont see how do you consider Bandage even a good card. Its a pile imho, look, you dont care about lackey hit you, right? Well - more lackey hits - more gobbos will die at wrath time. Correct me if im wrong.

Deep Inside

11-04-2005, 04:50 AM

But until turn4, goblins can kill you, if they get a goblin from Lackey every turn.

midnightAce

11-04-2005, 05:39 AM

You guys are missing the point. Bandage, on top being an temp answer to Lackey, acts majorly as a 1cc cycler that make sure you don't get mana screwed, etc.

The whole notion of "it's okay to have more goblins on the board" is only valid when you are holding removal, or at least holding cycling cards to find these removal, even then, it's not advised.

Think about it, if the whole "Well - more lackey hits - more gobbos will die at wrath time." applies, then UW Landstill should never FoW first turn Lackey, because they run 4 x Wrath and 4 x Vengeance... well, we all know how that turns out.

The reason why Wombat is capable of keeping goblins under control is repeatly reduce the number of goblins on the table via the removal, ALLOWING Lackey to connect, especially turn 1/2, is never a good idea. (Ex. Single/double Port could delay the Wrath, drew a Vengeance when a Wrath is needed is also bad, Port delay Vengeance, well, that's just down right shitty.)

Just because Wombat has a good match up against Goblin, never underestimate Goblins, and never underestimate first turn Lackey. Puttingn Wombat low on life by turn 4 is not very attractive for Wombat as well, especially those who refuses to run Renewed Faith.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-04-2005, 05:54 AM

It wasn't a typo, just a poorly arranged thought. Renewed Faith and Bandage are aimed at dealing with aggro, and Bandage also piles on with Swords to give more answers to Lackey.

And no, first turn Lackey hitting you is still bad, as you don't want them outracing your Wrath or getting free early Ringleaders. Anything you can do to slow the game down is good.

Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1131119361

blacklotus3636

11-04-2005, 10:29 AM

I know rabid wombat is supposed to have a really good matchup with goblins but honestly I've been having alot of trouble...ports ruin my day because the deck is so land light and even when he's not porting me off wrath mana he just steadily build up forces until I am forced to wrath then just drops a chief,driver, and pyromancer for the win. I don't think I'm playing it incorrectly he just builds up forces to make me wrath followed by warchief,pyromancer and a few other goblins for the win. Hell just pyromancer and warchief is 10 damage! I think we have finally reached the point that vintage control decks have reached either kill quick enough to compete or die. Even if this deck does manage to beat goblins and other agressive decks those same red decks will just start packing flashfires which means game over for pretty much any MWC player. The next evolution of control in legacy is definately the combo win.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-04-2005, 10:47 AM

Have you cut Swords to Plowshares, Wing Shards, Humility, and Rune? If so, I can pinpoint the source of your problem. If not, you're probably just trying to play too fast. The matchup should be all about slowing the game down. Or maybe you just need to mulligan better.

bigbear102

11-04-2005, 01:29 PM

The goblin matchup is by no means an easy one, but is still heavily in your favor. I played it 4 rounds at the GPT, and I won three of them, but every time it was a hard fought battle. You have to know which removal to use and when to use it. Personally, when I am holding StP, Wing Shards, and Wrath, if I am on the play, I let Lackey resolve. That also takes into account that I have either 4 land, or 3 and a dragon, and also having them not drop port in the first 2 turns. It is very possible to let them overextend and then ruin their day, but don't complain when they hit the nutz and you're dead on turn 4.

Flashfires can be easily combatted by adding more Sacred Ground when the threat becomes more prevalent. I have actually been thinking about playing a version of the deck with 4 Mishra's Factory (due to the new interaction w/ Humility) and Crucible. Not that that is needed yet, or even wanted.

I have to agree also with the inclusion of Bandage, it is very good at what it does. You can also use it to save an Angel post board, keep Decree tokens alive for more blockage, and mess with a burn player's math, causing them to Fireblast themselves into a one-sided geddon.

scarface

11-05-2005, 03:27 AM

I need a more thorough explanation on the interaction between humility and manlands. The judge at my local tourney says that a mishra's factory's power and toughness would be applied in layer 6a and would therefore be overridden by humility (which is 6b). Is the 2/2 power toughness a characteristic-setting ability or would it fall into the generic "other" P/T effects category? Finally, if it does come down to timestamps (if they are both 6b) would the factory win out simply on the basis that it was activated after humilty entered play?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-05-2005, 03:46 AM

As of Ravnica, man-lands will always trump Humility, as will Equipment and Auras, including Genju. Counters in general will now apply after Humility, making it much worse against Spike Feeder and much better against Wall of Roots.

lyle h

11-05-2005, 09:55 AM

Jack, are you sure Genju gets around Humility. I have asked a Level 3 Judge and they tell me that it becomes a 1/1 no matter how many times you activate the Genju. Factory he says is a 2/2, but Genju a 1/1.

bigbear102

11-05-2005, 01:28 PM

So does that mean that a Slith Firewalker with 3 counters on it before Humility hits is still a 4/4 after Humility? That would totally suck ballz in the already iffy sligh matchup.