Possible Devices
for the
Kingdom (King) of Lochac

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Per fess sable and gules a crown dancetty of
three within a laurel wreath Or.Karl-Faustus von Aachen

Identifier: KFvA1

Comments:

(1) Per fess sable and gules (etc). Why has nobody thought
of this before? - Del

OK - Thorfinn

Too close to the Aboriginal Flag presents possible mundane conflict.
It is a nice concept though with good colour usage. Possibly make the
background quarterly?? Yes you can use that as a suggestion. - Ulfrikr
inn Hrafn

Our objection is that it is too close to the aboriginal flag, but
more so, it is a dark device. Further, it does not preserve the current Kingdom colors so has no historical significance from a Lochac
point of view. We do like the simple division of the per fess Identifier
- Lorix and Gryffon

Azure, two crowns dancetty of three base to base
within a laurel wreath argent.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC2

Comments:

Inverted symmetry is not a period practice and hence probably not
allowed - Thorfinn

The inverted symmetry does not particularly appeal to me. - Ulfrikr

The voided crown seems to blend into obscurity & the inverted symmetry
does not properly display the crown. ie at first glance, it did not
appear to be a crown, but a funnily drawn star. - Lorix & Gryffon

Quaterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of three
within a laurel wreath argent.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC3

Comments:

Quite a shock to see I'm the only one apart from yourself who has
suggested any Kingdom devices, tho. Some of your ones I quite
like, especially <Quarterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of three
within a laurel wreath argent> - Karl-Faustus von Aachen

Good - Thorfinn

Very Nice. - Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

This one is nice. The red & blue complement each other & it doesn't
appear as dark as the red & black combination. It preserves the current
colors used & has a similar division (in appearance) of the colors (hey
sentiment is not to be sniffed at) - Gryffon & Lorix

Quaterly azure and argent a cross gules, overall
a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath quarterly argent
and azure.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC5

Comments:

This is pushing this limits of complexity and thin line heraldry
- Thorfinn

This one is really busy, it would be an horrendous task to actually
have to sew this device & it is not as pretty as some of the others.
The complex counterchanging seems also to give it an unbalanced look
& the voided crown could just as easily not be there as it doesn't
particularly stand out. - Lorix & Gryffon

Quaterly azure and gules, in cross three mullets
of six points and a crown dancetty of three within a laurel wreath argent.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC6

Comments:

Unbalanced central charges and possibly not acceptable - Thorfinn

Does not appeal to me - Ulfrikr

Feel unbalanced. Seems bottom heavy with a squished crownIdentifier

Gules a crown dancetty of three voided within
a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six points argent.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC9

Comments:

Good - Thorfinn

I think I like the gules field, with the stars in cross the best,
though the charges will have to be a bit small - Cristoval

I personally do not like this with the red field - Ulfrikr

This has a nice even feel to the actual device with the placement
of the charges. The 4 stars give the embodiment of our current device
& it retains 2 of the current colors. Prefer the red background to the
blue. - Lorix & Gryffon

Quarterly azure and gules a crown dancetty
of three voided within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six
points argent.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC10

Comments:

This is my preferred option so far - Richard

Good - Thorfinn

Nice, once again I would prefer a solid crown - Ulfrikr

We don't like the voided Crown as it seems to render the crown insignificant
compared to the solidness of the rest of the charges - Gryffon &
Lorix

I prefer this as it is close to what we already have. Unfortunately,
those closer would look unbalanced.

Quarterly azure and argent a crown dancetty
of three voided within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six
points gules.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC11

Comments:

Good - Thorfinn

Red charges seem to fade

Prefer the blue/red combination to the blue/white. The charges seem
to blend into the background too much - Lorix and Gryffon

Quarterly azure and argent a crown dancetty
of three voided within a laurel wreath counterchanged and a bordure gules
charged with four mullets of six points argent.Richard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC12

Comments:

Excessively complex, would not be allowed - Thorfinn

Too complex - Ulfrikr

Too busy and not particularly attractive - Lorix & Gryffon

Quarterly azure and argent, on a
cross gules four mullets of six points and in canton a crown dancetty of
three voided within a laurel wreath argentRichard de la Croix

Identifier: RdlC13

Comments:

(2) Keeping as close to what we already have - Del

Excessively complex, would not be allowed - Thorfinn

Continuity with current device is nice. May indeed be too complex
though - Ulfrikr

Whilst close to the original, the crown becomes insignificant in
its voided state. It also looks unbalanced.

Argent a crown "dancetty of three voided" within
a laurel wreath gules, all within four mullets of six points azureThorfinn Hrolfssen

Identifier: TH1

Comments:

Good - Richard

Does not appeal to me - Ulfrikr

Bland - Dominic

It keeps the Kingdom colours Argent, Gules and Azure It has the
device of our parent kingdom, It has the cross of stars from the current
design, has a metal as field. Really stands out on the field. It is
not complex. Thorfinn

This has a nice even feel to the actual device with the placement
of the charges. The 4 stars give the embodiment of our current device
& it retains all of the current colors. Although we would like to retain
something more like to the current device for continuity sake, the stark
simplicity of this is pleasing to the eye. It is the only device where
a voided crown looks appropriate. We REALLY like this one.

Favorite for stark simplicity - Lorix

Very nice in own right - Gryffin

Quarterly sable and gules a crown
"dancetty of three" within a laurel wreath gules, all within four mullets
of six points azureUlfrikr inn Hrafn

Identifier: ULF1

Comments:

rather complex and dark, and the obvious parallel to the Aboriginal
flag is a bit disenfranchising (to use a PC term), although I personally
don't have a problem with acknowledging the first Australians.- Dominic

same objections as for KFvA1above. there are other devices we find
more aesthetically & sentimentally pleasing - Gryffon & Lorix

Argent a crown "dancetty
of three " within a laurel wreath gules, all within four mullets of six
points azureUlfrikr inn Hrafn

Identifier: ULF2

Comments:

a bit simple to me.- Dominic

Quarterly azure and argent, on a cross gules four mullets
of six points, in canton a laurel wreath and in dexter base a crown dancetty
of three all argent

Identifier: JvG1

Comments:

I personally think the Crown should be central to the device (i.e.
in the centre of the device). Personally I believe that pushing the
Crown off to one side detracts from it's importance. It becomes a secondary
charge, rather than primary. Visually the Cross and Stars are the design
elements which will command the most attention. Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

This is the closest to the original. * It will require minimum adjustment
(to device & regalia). It is probably the most cost effective. It retains
the heritage of our original device. Has a balanced feel. - Lorix
& Gryffon

Per fess azure and gules within a laurel
wreath a crown dancetty of three argent (Identifier: JvG2) Jan of Ghent

Identifier: JvG2

Comments:

Not bad. I would be satisfied with this. However, I do like the inclusion
of the stars because it relates an item back to the Kingdom device
without too much visual complexity (I feel the cross over quarterly
gives too much visual complexity). - Francois Henri Guyon

I think that both jvg2 and 3 are pretty ugly (Sorry folks). Looks
like a very run down African (post british colonial) flag belonging
to a country so small it is impossible to write the name of it within
the borders of a reasonably scaled map - Sasha.

Like the simplicity of the division, but tend to prefer the quarterly
division as it is closer to the original. However, whilst this would
be OK (preserves current 3 colors) its . . . blah. - Lorix and Gryffon

Per fess azure and gules, between in cross four
mullets within a laurel wreath a crown dancetty of three argent

Jan of Ghent

Identifier: JvG3

Comments:

My favorite, although I prefer Azure and Gules - Francois

Again, like the simplicity of the division, but tend to prefer the
quarterly division as it is closer to the original * Prefer the stars
& it doesn't have a voided crown - Lorix and Gryffon

Quarterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of
three within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six points argent.Dominic

Identifier: Dom1

Comments:

Quartery azure and argent, on a cross gules a crown between four mullets
of six points, in canton a laurel wreath all argent Reynardine de Clifford

Identifier: Dom1

Comments:

I believe that this has the advantage of making the crown central
to the device and not having to remake all those existing banners. For
new banners, I would recommend making the cross a little larger to make
more room for the crown and stars - Reynardine

This would result in an unbalanced design. If viewed without the wreath,
however, it would be balanced. - Jan

Comes a close second - Lorix

I favour Dom 1 for its relation to the original - Gryffin.

General Comments:

I think some elements should be retained (to create
a sense of evolution), with the following order of precedence: 1. Colours
2. Charges 3. Composition. IMO, the "cleanest" designs appear to be those
without the mullets.- Jan of Ghent

I prefer the set of designs with the stars outside
the laurel wreath (except for the red one). I also prefer a solid crown (as
a crown with substance). So I prefer ULF2, or RdeLC10 with a solid crown.
- Francois Henri Guyon

Can we incorporate the stars into the laurel wreathe
in the same way as the queen of the west has roses incorporated into hers?
It would be a little fiddly at a distance but would look great as you got
closer (would not make the devise less identifiable at a distance...you would
just get more detail up close). This would allow the crown to be proportionally
larger upon the field and make it the truly central charge. Sasha

The Queen's arms have a wreath of roses. Are you propsing
a wreath of mullets? Again, not good period heraldry. Uberto

On keeping the old arms for the crown Prince and
Princess: This is a brilliant idea.I would
prefer to keep the old arms with as little change as possible, but this isn't
because they have great symbolic meaning for me. It is because I dislike unnecessary
cost and waste. Spending $X00.00 on new regalia while putting the old stuff
away in the attic somewhere is, in my opinion, pretty close to culpable waste
of society funds already invested, not to mention hundreds of hours of effort
on banners and so on in every group across Lochac. Using it as the regalia
for the Crown Prince and Princess maintains the value of that investment.
I'd still prefer to go with the old device and regalia, but at least this
way the unnecessary cost isn't aggravated by unnecessary waste. Besides, if
everyone already has those banners and so on, the CP&P will nearly *have*
to hold courts, so that they can be properly displayed, thus reducing the
workload on the Crown. Peter the Uncertain

Please let us keep the colours, the stars and cross
of our current device, so we do not forget our roots.... Katerina da Brescia.

I was much struck by the royal device in red-black-gold;
I *like* it; it says something to me. I do not know much about heraldry; recognise
only one or two devices; I would not recognise Lochac's current device, despite
having been around SCA for two to four years. The device of an australian
kingdom ought to say something about Australia; and of course, in-period,
Australia was known best by Aboriginal peoples! The comment about the work
and money invested in present banners is fair, though. Can some place be retained
for them? Rachel

On Crowns - to void or not to void!

I think the central crown is the most logical, the
least contentious, the most easily excepted, the most cost efficient but the
red black and gold option on the page is a beauty - Kane Greymane

I don't like voided Crowns (due to the reduction in
contrast it presents and the undesirable symbolism of a "A Crown without substance"),
plain field quartering (too visually complex, especially when aligning charges
around the point of conjunction, and an arguably "tired" motif). Jan of
Ghent

"I don't like the voided Crowns".
Neither do I! Artistically its too fiddly for the size ratio - it ends up
being about the same size as the stars and having it voided it makes it pretty
hard to see at all on most of the proposed devices. Yes I know its on all
our West banners ... not a strong enough reason to use it on ours in my opinion.
Its much more visually striking in a solid gold or silver. One of the better
renditions of a solid crown visually is made by cutting one of the stars in
half horizontally and increase the size about 20%. Reynardine de Clifford

I like the voided crown for a number of reasons. It
is artistically more pleasing and better to work with when incorporating it
into awards tokens and fiddly heraldic bits like plates and tableware. I like
it because it is not a nearly meaningless solid blob in the middle of the
device. hmmmm.... If we could have any detail at all in the crown representation
then I think it could work well but as a solid outline it is just a ragged
shape that looks like a child's drawing of the opera house...or mountains,
or a duck. It is basically only meaningfull if you have some context...ie:
the SCA. I would rather have something that went beyond this. Perhaps if we
tried a solid crown with a star voided in the centre of it....or something?
Just a thought, but it might highlight my objections to the solid meaningless
blob. Sasha

A plain or voided crown "dancetty of 3 points" does,
I admit, look too stylised even for heraldry. However, there are some very
nice heraldic crowns which look like real crowns and allow for some detail
to be present. Uberto

Gryffon du Lac & Lorix: Neither of us are heralds &
are commenting merely from an aesthetic, practical & sentimental point of
view as we like the current Lochac colors. As a basic principle, given the
sheer amount of regalia, we would prefer a device that utilises the existing
colors that are on the current device: ie red, Blue & white. There is an historical
precedent of these colors being Lochac's and depending on the device chosen,
there may need to be only small changes to the resulting regalia. Alternatively,
if the colors remain the same & the device is fairly different, some of the
regalia may be able to be recycled, just a thought.

with your ideas and suggestions
for the Lochac device. Any mail sent to the author on the issues above will
be included here and with your permission, forwarded on to the Kingdom Seneschal. This page was last updated on10 August 2003