Originally posted by DDR4life: The world sighed a collective >phew!<
Seriously, when will the mpaa/riaa/douchebags get it? The Pirate Bay will go down when its administrators decide to hang up their hats and not before.

No, not even then. The fact is The Pirate Bay is more then just a website now, its an idea, and a political cause. It is run not by admins or mods, but by the community. By humanity and all its people. And as such, we will never let the good ship down.

While that's a nice sentiment, if The Pirate Bay's admins decide (or are forced) to take it down, it dies. The community  and the rest of the planet  *does not* maintain their servers, it's that simple.

Don't get complacent and think TPB isn't always in a precarious position.

Originally posted by DDR4life: The world sighed a collective >phew!<
Seriously, when will the mpaa/riaa/douchebags get it? The Pirate Bay will go down when its administrators decide to hang up their hats and not before.

No, not even then. The fact is The Pirate Bay is more then just a website now, its an idea, and a political cause. It is run not by admins or mods, but by the community. By humanity and all its people. And as such, we will never let the good ship down.

Mmmmmmm... stealing other people property, a cuase for the humanity... hard to believe all human history to this...

The big companies ("artists") make their movies and music for the profit not for the "humanity", if you dont want them to be the giant them are... dont buy or steal their music/movies... the fact you think them sell it very expensive donīt gave you the right to steal it...

STEAL IS WRONG!!!

Make your own music and enjoy it, and gift it if you want... no other people stuff.

In my case I donīt hear music I donīt think it worth if... prefer hear nothing to steal it.

Originally posted by DDR4life: The world sighed a collective >phew!<
Seriously, when will the mpaa/riaa/douchebags get it? The Pirate Bay will go down when its administrators decide to hang up their hats and not before.

No, not even then. The fact is The Pirate Bay is more then just a website now, its an idea, and a political cause. It is run not by admins or mods, but by the community. By humanity and all its people. And as such, we will never let the good ship down.

Mmmmmmm... stealing other people property, a cuase for the humanity... hard to believe all human history to this...

The big companies ("artists") make their movies and music for the profit not for the "humanity", if you dont want them to be the giant them are... dont buy or steal their music/movies... the fact you think them sell it very expensive donīt gave you the right to steal it...

STEAL IS WRONG!!!

Make your own music and enjoy it, and gift it if you want... no other people stuff.

In my case I donīt hear music I donīt think it worth if... prefer hear nothing to steal it.

Originally posted by DDR4life: The world sighed a collective >phew!<
Seriously, when will the mpaa/riaa/douchebags get it? The Pirate Bay will go down when its administrators decide to hang up their hats and not before.

No, not even then. The fact is The Pirate Bay is more then just a website now, its an idea, and a political cause. It is run not by admins or mods, but by the community. By humanity and all its people. And as such, we will never let the good ship down.

Mmmmmmm... stealing other people property, a cuase for the humanity... hard to believe all human history to this...

The big companies ("artists") make their movies and music for the profit not for the "humanity", if you dont want them to be the giant them are... dont buy or steal their music/movies... the fact you think them sell it very expensive donīt gave you the right to steal it...

STEAL IS WRONG!!!

Make your own music and enjoy it, and gift it if you want... no other people stuff.

In my case I donīt hear music I donīt think it worth if... prefer hear nothing to steal it.

Yeah right, I suppose you've never stolen a paper clip or pencil from the office, or used the company copier to copy your personal documents. I guess I will stop stealing paper clips and pencils from the office, you've made me feel so guilty.....................In the mean time I plan on downloading torrent Downton Abbey via utorrent when I get home from work.

"Do not underestimate the power of an enemy, no matter how great or small, to rise against you another day." - Atilla

Beware the new looming invisible elephant in the room... google/android and long time apple. Everyone is pushing cloud storage and no memory expansion, these are all in an effort to quietly destroy piracy. Think about it, you have to store your documents on their servers and they get to see everything you store and then they can decide if it is legal or not for you to have and no expandable memory means you can't store your own files how you want to. The average person may want cloud storage but not me...

Originally posted by harhumph: Beware the new looming invisible elephant in the room... google/android and long time apple. Everyone is pushing cloud storage and no memory expansion, these are all in an effort to quietly destroy piracy. Think about it, you have to store your documents on their servers and they get to see everything you store and then they can decide if it is legal or not for you to have and no expandable memory means you can't store your own files how you want to. The average person may want cloud storage but not me...

My thoughts exactly. I store nothing in the cloud!!!

"Do not underestimate the power of an enemy, no matter how great or small, to rise against you another day." - Atilla

Originally posted by DDR4life: The world sighed a collective >phew!<
Seriously, when will the mpaa/riaa/douchebags get it? The Pirate Bay will go down when its administrators decide to hang up their hats and not before.

No, not even then. The fact is The Pirate Bay is more then just a website now, its an idea, and a political cause. It is run not by admins or mods, but by the community. By humanity and all its people. And as such, we will never let the good ship down.

Mmmmmmm... stealing other people property, a cuase for the humanity... hard to believe all human history to this...

The big companies ("artists") make their movies and music for the profit not for the "humanity", if you dont want them to be the giant them are... dont buy or steal their music/movies... the fact you think them sell it very expensive donīt gave you the right to steal it...

STEAL IS WRONG!!!

Make your own music and enjoy it, and gift it if you want... no other people stuff.

In my case I donīt hear music I donīt think it worth if... prefer hear nothing to steal it.

Um.....Whose SIDE are ya on?!?!?

PepePecas
Unverified new userpretty obvious this is a studio ringer. just signed up to champion the cause. Pathetic.

Cloud storage, when used as an additional storage option (as opposed to the only option), definitely has its place. For example, game saves on Steam are auto-backed-up to the cloud every time you exit a Steam game. This feature is damn useful; I can play a game on one PC, then continue/finish it on another, with ease.

Where cloud storage is NOT OK is for sensitive and/or crucial data, You're at the mercy of the cloud provider; if they decide to hold your data hostage to fees, or if if they screw up your data some way, you're simply hosed, with no recourse.

The idea of "the cloud" was originally fronted by M$, and was specifically stated to be a new, constant "revenue stream" for corporations; IT HAS NO OTHER REAL PURPOSE.

Originally posted by DDR4life: The world sighed a collective >phew!<
Seriously, when will the mpaa/riaa/douchebags get it? The Pirate Bay will go down when its administrators decide to hang up their hats and not before.

No, not even then. The fact is The Pirate Bay is more then just a website now, its an idea, and a political cause. It is run not by admins or mods, but by the community. By humanity and all its people. And as such, we will never let the good ship down.

Mmmmmmm... stealing other people property, a cuase for the humanity... hard to believe all human history to this...

The big companies ("artists") make their movies and music for the profit not for the "humanity", if you dont want them to be the giant them are... dont buy or steal their music/movies... the fact you think them sell it very expensive donīt gave you the right to steal it...

STEAL IS WRONG!!!

Make your own music and enjoy it, and gift it if you want... no other people stuff.

In my case I donīt hear music I donīt think it worth if... prefer hear nothing to steal it.

Um.....Whose SIDE are ya on?!?!?

PepePecas
Unverified new userpretty obvious this is a studio ringer. just signed up to champion the cause. Pathetic.

Sorry, but not... truth is hard.

Explain me how doing it is not stealing and I shut my mouth off (in this case my fingers)...

This "revolution" is going the wrong way... if you are not happy with big companies being so big... donīt make them BIGGER stealing his stuff... create your own stuff and gift them (I know donīt sound so inspiring)...

First off, PepePecas, you're going to have to show how copying intellectual property (NOT selling it, which becomes fraud) is "theft".

The simple answer? It isn't. Not even close. While certainly illegal under civil law, it's not a criminal violation, unlike theft. It really is that simple. For example, if I steal a car from a dealership, that's clearly theft. If, however, I buy a car, then use that information to build identical cars at a fraction of the price and give them away free, that is clearly NOT theft; the original was paid for! It's *wrong*, but it's also already covered under civil law.

Civil offenses are not equivalent to criminal offenses, no matter how you huff and puff.

And last, both stealing and IP (intellectual property) violations cost companies money. It certainly doesn't make them bigger.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Jan 2013 @ 12:04

Originally posted by Bozobub: First off, PepePecas, you're going to have to show how copying intellectual property (NOT selling it, which becomes fraud) is "theft".

The simple answer? It isn't. Not even close. While certainly illegal under civil law, it's not a criminal violation, unlike theft. It really is that simple. For example, if I steal a car from a dealership, that's clearly theft. If, however, I buy a car, then use that information to build identical cars at a fraction of the price and give them away free, that is clearly NOT theft; the original was paid for! It's *wrong*, but it's also already covered under civil law.

Civil offenses are not equivalent to criminal offenses, no matter how you huff and puff.

And last, both stealing and IP (intellectual property) violations cost companies money. It certainly doesn't make them bigger.

OK, make your own version of Robocop, Terminator, Titanic, Gangman Style, etc... and gift them... and surely big companies will not have as much problem with it...

Iīm talking with downloading the original version knowing this is not free, from an unauthorized place, knowing is wrong... And Iīm not blaming directly PirateBay (but we all know its purpose) or else, the problem are the users... If I leave the door of my house open doesnīt gave you the right to take my stuff...

And last, the perfect example that stealing their IP make them bigger is Microsoft, I remeber how easy was to copy and install without restrictions from v3.1 to xp, and them know it... but know they dominate by 85-90% OS market share... not to talk about how much money they made.

I did NOT say digital piracy wasn't wrong. It is NOT, however  unless you sell the content to someone else, which is copyright fraud  a crime.

You're going to have to learn to stop equating theft (a crime) with violating IP (a civil violation). It's not the same thing, and you won't ever be able to make it the same thing. First google "criminal law", then google "tort law". No one is likely to listen to your point of view, if you start using hyperbole from the very start, you know.

Finally, while piracy arguably does increase market penetration to some small degree, what made Windows '95 so successful was its merits, not piracy; it was a quantum leap forward from 3.11. You may have forgotten MS-DOS but I have not, and while Windows 3.11 for Workgroups was well-made for its time, it had drastic limits. Anyone using the GUI for 3.11, then using '95, will see the improvement right away.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Jan 2013 @ 14:45

Originally posted by Bozobub: Again, you're confused. Step back and take a deep breath.

I did NOT say digital piracy wasn't wrong. It is NOT, however  unless you sell the content to someone else, which is copyright fraud  a crime.

You're going to have to learn to stop equating theft (a crime) with violating IP (a civil violation). It's not the same thing, and you won't ever be able to make it the same thing. First google "criminal law", then google "tort law". No one is likely to listen to your point of view, if you start using hyperbole from the very start, you know.

Finally, while piracy arguably does increase market penetration to some small degree, what made Windows '95 so successful was its merits, not piracy; it was a quantum leap forward from 3.11. You may have forgotten MS-DOS but I have not, and while Windows 3.11 for Workgroups was well-made for its time, it had drastic limits. Anyone using the GUI for 3.11, then using '95, will see the improvement right away.

You're twisting everything that PepePecas said, into something he never did say, to fit your argument. You are wrong to do so, and PepePecas is right in what he said.

Basically, I believe that this from Post #17 is what he was trying to say all along.

Iīm talking with downloading the original version knowing this is not free, from an unauthorized place, knowing is wrong... And Iīm not blaming directly PirateBay (but we all know its purpose) or else, the problem are the users... If I leave the door of my house open doesnīt gave you the right to take my stuff...

And you don't think it is wrong and stealing? This isn't the same issue as copying something you purchased, for your own use. This is stealing something that you did not pay for.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Jan 2013 @ 23:48

Originally posted by Bozobub: Again, you're confused. Step back and take a deep breath.

I did NOT say digital piracy wasn't wrong. It is NOT, however  unless you sell the content to someone else, which is copyright fraud  a crime.

You're going to have to learn to stop equating theft (a crime) with violating IP (a civil violation). It's not the same thing, and you won't ever be able to make it the same thing. First google "criminal law", then google "tort law". No one is likely to listen to your point of view, if you start using hyperbole from the very start, you know.

Finally, while piracy arguably does increase market penetration to some small degree, what made Windows '95 so successful was its merits, not piracy; it was a quantum leap forward from 3.11. You may have forgotten MS-DOS but I have not, and while Windows 3.11 for Workgroups was well-made for its time, it had drastic limits. Anyone using the GUI for 3.11, then using '95, will see the improvement right away.

You're twisting everything that PepePecas said, into something he never did say, to fit your argument. You are wrong to do so, and PepePecas is right in what he said.

Basically, I believe that this from Post #17 is what he was trying to say all along.

Iīm talking with downloading the original version knowing this is not free, from an unauthorized place, knowing is wrong... And Iīm not blaming directly PirateBay (but we all know its purpose) or else, the problem are the users... If I leave the door of my house open doesnīt gave you the right to take my stuff...

And you don't think it is wrong and stealing? This isn't the same issue as copying something you purchased, for your own use. This is stealing something that you did not pay for.

Again, no, not even close. I'll reference you to the quoted text in bold, when I reiterate: While wrong, digital piracy, of itself, is NOT a crime. That's how the law is written  at least in the US  no matter how you argue otherwise.

I'll say it once more: Digital piracy is not a crime, it's a civil violation, and is strictly defined as such for several very good reasons. It's just not the same thing. Theft, after all, deprives the original owner of the stolen object, while making an illicit copy does not.

Until you can come up with an actual counterpoint, I'm going to have to throw that "You're twisting everything that PepePecas said, into something he never did say, to fit your argument" line right back in your face.

I put it to you that until proponents of stronger IP protection learn to debate the actual point at hand, they're doomed to fail.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 10 Jan 2013 @ 0:44

Originally posted by xboxdvl2: pepepecas if you give someone $50 you shouldnt be able to control what they do with it.
if you sell someone a disc you shouldnt be able to control what they do with the contents on it.

Thats OK, if you sell "your" disc to someone, but after you sell it you lose the property of it (includes copies or backups), sorry but those are the terms on wich you bought it (unless is not, but most), if dont like it donīt buy it... and what the guy who you sell it do with it is his problem.

This matter is difficult to compare with physicall stuff, you can made a copy of your $50 bill that you gave, trying to use the copy is illegal and mostly wrong... and really don't recommend you to do it.

The reason the matter "is difficult to compare with physical stuff", is because it's not the same thing.

Let's review:
- Digital piracy, while arguably wrong/immoral, is not a crime. It's defined as a civil violation (copyright infringement), and is subject to tort law.
- Selling an unauthorized copy is copyright fraud, a crime.
- Copying money is specifically defined as a felony under criminal law, and so is the use of said counterfeit money. Your example is deeply flawed.

tl;dr? Fine. US law says copyright infringement is not a crime. Using anything as an example or metaphor that IS a crime, automatically fails. Please stop. Moral is not necessarily legal, any more than immoral is necessarily illegal. You're harming your own argument by trying to argue for a false equivalency.

P.S. I refer to US law because that's what I'm most familiar with, but most nations with a legal system worth crap are very careful to keep the divide between tort and criminal law.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 10 Jan 2013 @ 12:51