Yes, I agree with your post Cables. I think a lot of folks discussed complimentary football on different boards, a lot of us on this one who have talked about it. And yes, the O is clearly the crown jewel of this team. You made an interesting piont...The O/team requires Brady to be perfect. Why is that? Is it becuase we are a pass heavy team (stats say otherwise, meaning we are actually fairly balanced between pass/run), or is it because our defense stinks and if Brady has an off game, our lousy defense can't pick up the slack? In terms of the point on the TEs...I think its both. Gronk and Hern are good if not great players, who provide match up issues for defenses. Therefore, you want to get them the ball, because, there should be mismatches more often than not for the Pats to exploit. So, the TE position is a position we invested heavily in, in 2010, and right now, its a position where we can create mismatches. We also invested in the WR position via the draft, but that didn't work out, and neither has Ocho, so if you want to pass with any consistency, Gronk, Hern, Wes and Branch to a degree are your only real options. My feeling is if we had hit on Tate or even Price, we would see a llittle different distribution of the ball, and also a 3rd dimension to this offense that would have potentially made it virtually unstoppable. IF we had also hit on Vereen or Ridley as the kid that can do it all, then the offense is unstoppable. So far, neither bets panned out. And, your last comment is telling. One mediocre game by Brady and this team is done because we are not built to withstand a storm on D like our previous SB caliber teams did.Posted by PatsLifer

I am all for complimentary football.

And it is too bad the league doesn't allow players to shed helmets. If underwood had been alowed to play w/o his helmet, Brady could have just rifled his pass to the huge target that is Underwood's Kin N Play hairdo. No Stickum required.

Right. Just like when Brady missed an open Welker and Gronk for TDs earlier. Please. Enough with the "he ran a bad route" excuse. Posted by RidingWithTheKingII

Initally my whole argument wasnt about the pick or the route it was how O'Brien acted on the sideline. The dude was screaming, literally throwing a tantrum on the sideline at one of the best ever to play the game. For a Patriots organization that likes to make everything seem like they are in control at all times, O'Brien, the OC, loses control... big time!

I get it, bad pick, but let BB do the screaming if needed not the OC for crying out loud (pun intended). O'Brien was out of line, IMO.

But after going back and looking at it a few times it was a very lazy route by Underwood and he didn't make a play on the ball. Thought I would throw that in since everyone is talking about that too.

In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : Read your post again. You wrote that "he" is having one the greatest QB season of all time and people are complaining. Brady isn't even in the top two this year. How can it be one of the greatest all-time? Don't forget that the ruie changes have changed the the game to the point that today's passing stats can't be compared to stats from even seven years ago.Posted by chrisakawoody

Brady is the second rated passer at 106. That is top 16 all-time for a season. He is on pace for 40.6 TD passes. That many or more have been thrown 5 times in NFL history. He is on pace to break the all-time single season yardage mark. What more do you require to call it one of the greatest seasons of all-time?

And your claim that rules have made the passing game way different from 7 years ago is just plain WRONG.

2011 average passer rating = 82.1

2004 average passer rating = 80.9

You really are discrediting three guys who are having outstanding years for the sake of your spin.

Oooooooooooo, Brady and a coach get into it and the world shakes......

Brady was wrong. O'Brien managed to get out of control over it. Not much credit for either participant. In addition, based on where the receivers were on the play, Brady may have overthrown his real target. Bottom line, as a Q.B. you don't throw interceptions in the red zone and frankly that throw was forced into coverage. Brady should have thrown it away if Underwood was the receiver on that play, he was covered. If Brady throws it away, he maintains the opportunity for a field goal which would have put the game away as effectively as a touch down. I see Brady as having blown the read and the throw and then throwing Underwood under the bus on the side lines, which is what O'Brien objected to.

Tempest meets tea pot and the world is never the same.... Oooooooooooo, Brady and a coach get into it and the world shakes...... Brady was wrong. O'Brien managed to get out of control over it. Not much credit for either participant. In addition, based on where the receivers were on the play, Brady may have overthrown his real target. Bottom line, as a Q.B. you don't throw interceptions in the red zone and frankly that throw was forced into coverage. Brady should have thrown it away if Underwood was the receiver on that play, he was covered. If Brady throws it away, he maintains the opportunity for a field goal which would have put the game away as effectively as a touch down. I see Brady as having blown the read and the throw and then throwing Underwood under the bus on the side lines, which is what O'Brien objected to.Posted by Dessalines

I don't blame Brady for leaning on the scrub that he has to try to bust that up. That isn't Brady trying to avoid blame. I think he has that right. I do see O'Brien as going way too far in acting like a psycho and even ignoring BB in his wild tirade. When players, staff and even the HC tell you to back off you went way too far.

In Response to Fire Bill O'Brien! : Did Underwood force the pass? Yes, Brady is a 3x SB winner - but he hasn't won one since 2004 AND it is not even relevant regarding the poor choice of throwing to Underwood I agree, however, that OB should be fired - just because he's not doing such a great job calling offensive plays. The X factor is - what % of calls does OB actually call....and how much does Brady call. Plus, there are usually a number of options for pass plays - so, Brady still is accountable for executing those plays. so, should brady be "fired" too?Posted by BubbaInHawaii

This thread isn't about whether or not Brady is at fault for a poorly throw pass, clearly he did. This is about the big picture in regards to OB as OC. If he doesn't have the intelligence to control himself in front of national tv, they why should we expect him to have the intelligence to make in game adjustments or the right calls come playoff time. He's is unqualified to be a professional coach, and now has show a complete lack of intelligence.

If he had any brains, he would coddle Brady and ride his coat tail to fame and fortune like McDaniels and Weis.

In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : Wrong. This isn't about stats, Fantasy Gramps. You call me WOnder Boy, but I'll call you Fantasy Gramps. We are WORSE at: 1. Field position control 2. TOP/Clock Management 3. Momentum We're WORSE at this than even 2006 when Caldwell was a #1 here. 2009 an excuse was fine, 2010 there was great improvement in dealing Brady's binky in Moss with two new nice toys (Gronkandez) until January hit , and now we're back to a hybrid of 2009 and 2007. Give me a hybrid of 2006 and 2010, thanks.Posted by RidingWithTheKingII

Sorry Spinboy. But while I can appreciate insight beyond the numbers, I can't if it completely disregardes the facts like your pathetic spin always does.

O'Brien lost his cool. Made a fool out of himself and in the process brought shame to the ntire team. Enough said Posted by proftom

Yup, he pretty much had a meltdown. It's actually kind of funny in hindsight he was sooooooo out of control. When has BB ever had to step in to hose off a coach before? I suspect there has been a "step into my office" request thrown OB's way in the last couple days.

The throw was a bad one, the receiver did not do enough to prevent the INT which he could have so the drive ended. O'Brien's coaching has kept the offense in the top 5 the last few years, he is not the problem, Brady is not the problem. No one needs to be fired, cut, or flogged at the flag pole at noon. It was a bad play tempers flared end of story. Let's keep some perspective here they are all only human after all.

In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : Sorry Spinboy. But while I can appreciate insight beyond the numbers, I can't if it completely disregardes the facts like your pathetic spin always does. Sell any snake oil to an unsuspecting old lady yet today?Posted by BabeParilli

Really Babe? Is this your technique in every dispute in your life? Insult the person? Try a little civility.

And originality. You already called me the "spin"-meister. Now you are calling Rusty the spin-meister. I've already trademarked your tag of me. Paid the money to the U.S. copyright office on-line and everything. I own the rights. Rusty can't have it. Cease and desist using it with anybody else or you will next hear from my high-priced imaginary team of lawyers.

BTW, got home and read the sport section today. Apparently the video did not tell all. As was reported by a beat reporter at the game, Brady was giving OB as good as he got. He was not passively sitting there the whole time as you and others have claimed.

We don't know if OB ever jawed at Brady before, but we have seen Brady dress down Woody, Branch, Hernandez, Chad, Underwood and Welker this season, often on bad passes by Brady. Maybe Brady had it coming, but we don't know that with any certainty.

More importantly, I think without the benefit of audio, all of us are stepping out on a limb in our opinions about what was discussed and why it got so heated. We do know that Brady was dropping a ton of F-bombs because of the miracle science of lip-reading. But OB has his back to the camera, so we don't know who started dropping them first.

As has been written here earlier, the big dust up isn't with OB and TB. It is with all the fans and pundits commenting on it. Seems by Brady and BB's comments that they have already moved past it.

In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : I never had a coach act like O'Brien did. Sure, I have had coaches get mad and yell but never like O'Brien did. The dude was out of control screaming, tearing himself loose from those holding him back in order to scream and continue his tantrum., he was out of control. He wasn't coaching he was having a little kid tantrum. Really, thats how you coach your superstar? Imagine the Colts OC acting like that to Manning, that coach would be gone!!! Posted by TFB12

i see at least one coach just about every weekend go off like that in the nfl and with college football. and yes coaches do yell and throw tantrums. if you were in the pats locker room im sure youd see plenty during a year. i never much agreed with it, but its one of their tools and one of their ways of getting points across. especially if a player is insubordinate. personally i dont favor that kind of communication, but i believe it's the lay of the land.

Wouldn't surprise me once O'Brien sees the tape, he will see what Brady was screaming about, that being Underwood was open and simply made no play to "GET" the ball. We have seen Brady make those throws and the receiver gets it. Now, could Brady have not tried to fit that pass into a tight spot, certainly, but, at the time he let the pass go Underwood was clearly open and the defender made a great play to reach up and snag it. Posted by agcsbill

In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : Really Babe? Is this your technique in every dispute in your life? Insult the person? Try a little civility. And originality. You already called me the "spin"-meister. Now you are calling Rusty the spin-meister. I've already trademarked your tag of me. Paid the money to the U.S. copyright office on-line and everything. I own the rights. Rusty can't have it. Cease and desist using it with anybody else or you will next hear from my high-priced imaginary team of lawyers. BTW, got home and read the sport section today. Apparently the video did not tell all. As was reported by a beat reporter at the game, Brady was giving OB as good as he got. He was not passively sitting there the whole time as you and others have claimed. We don't know if OB ever jawed at Brady before, but we have seen Brady dress down Woody, Branch, Hernandez, Chad, Underwood and Welker this season, often on bad passes by Brady. Maybe Brady had it coming, but we don't know that with any certainty. More importantly, I think without the benefit of audio, all of us are stepping out on a limb in our opinions about what was discussed and why it got so heated. We do know that Brady was dropping a ton of F-bombs because of the miracle science of lip-reading. But OB has his back to the camera, so we don't know who started dropping them first. As has been written here earlier, the big dust up isn't with OB and TB. It is with all the fans and pundits commenting on it. Seems by Brady and BB's comments that they have already moved past it.Posted by chrisakawoody

Stop whining. You asked for it, You got it.

Is English a second language for you? I called him Spinboy, not Spinmeister.

O'Brien was silent on the subject today, as he should be since he was the anal party to the discussion. BB probably read him the riot act and said just shaddap. Of course he let Brady do his thing at the presser about it. Notice how they have the QB speak at the post game press conference and not the OC? That might give you a clue as to the pecking order on an NFL team.

Brady basically told him to butt out and that's what sent him into psycho mode. Mark my words. OB will be moving on. You don't trash your franchise guy the owner gives $19 mil per and says he loves in front of all his teammates for the sake of a street scrub. Biggest mistake that Irishman ever made. Of course Brady slammed him back. He is the leader. All eyes were on him to see if he would fold. He handled it perfectly. Even Hoyer got up and physically removed his coach from accosting Fearless Leader Tom.

Your rantings about Brady being a diva and him causing new guys to forget how to play the game because he yelled at them are depraved and pitiful.