GDDR5 is a no go for Xbox One, latency differences would break every game. All specs must be better for it to work and latency is the one area that GDDR5 falls behind. (But just barely, talking nano seconds)

Latency is higher with GDDR5, but people fail to take into account the clock speed which is usually much higher so latency becomes insignificant.

As for updating memory on the xbone, that still wouldn't take care of the GPU being a generation behind the PS4's GPU (7790 vs 7850).

Latency is higher with GDDR5, but people fail to take into account the clock speed which is usually much higher so latency becomes insignificant.

As for updating memory on the xbone, that still wouldn't take care of the GPU being a generation behind the PS4's GPU (7790 vs 7850).

Yeah, the latency isn't a big deal at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fierce_gt

oh, haha.

what are the chances of MS using the same about gddr5 at some point? I'm wondering if they would be able to sell it as an improvement to the GUI and apps, so as not to annoy gamers who bought earlier consoles.

I assume since these consoles are so pc like, games don't have to be designed specifically for a certain spec of hardware. would it be reasonable for developers to continue producing games that will perform like they do now on launch consoles, but may have better AA or FPS, or perhaps even resolution on a newer updated console?

I just don't really understand why consoles try to restrict themselves to what was available when they were made. I understand the appeal of whatever game being made 5yrs from now still playing on your launch console, but I wouldn't be so against some yearly updates either.

GDDR5 is a no go for Xbox One, latency differences would break every game. All specs must be better for it to work and latency is the one area that GDDR5 falls behind. (But just barely, talking nano seconds)

excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between consoles and pc games in this regard? I mean I've never heard of a game 'requiring' gddr3. is this just a matter of policy, that consoles are supposed to all work the same, or would a game actually not run at all on a 'new' console with gddr5?

excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between consoles and pc games in this regard? I mean I've never heard of a game 'requiring' gddr3. is this just a matter of policy, that consoles are supposed to all work the same, or would a game actually not run at all on a 'new' console with gddr5?

Console games are built around every strength and limit of the console, and even slight changes can break games. The PS2 slim wouldn't play some PS2 games due to this.

Look up PC emulation and what it takes to emulate an older console like the SNES with 100% accuracy. (Top end gaming PCs lack the power to do it) Perfect compatability with different hardware doesn't work when you develop for a fixed spec.

An upgraded console with different specs would break games, they would have to patch every game released before hand just to be safe. It is impractical to do and just not worth it given how short the usual console cycle is.

Console games are built around every strength and limit of the console, and even slight changes can break games. The PS2 slim wouldn't play some PS2 games due to this.

Look up PC emulation and what it takes to emulate an older console like the SNES with 100% accuracy. (Top end gaming PCs lack the power to do it) Perfect compatability with different hardware doesn't work when you develop for a fixed spec.

An upgraded console with different specs would break games, they would have to patch every game released before hand just to be safe. It is impractical to do and just not worth it given how short the usual console cycle is.

Interesting that they still do this with most games being ported over from the PC version. You would think that they would just tone down the game to work with the lesser hardware of the console, but that the toned down game would work on a consoles with better hardware. That's how PC games work. You have minimum requirements, but no maximum requirements so long as the upgraded hardware is compatible.

Interesting that they still do this with most games being ported over from the PC version. You would think that they would just tone down the game to work with the lesser hardware of the console, but that the toned down game would work on a consoles with better hardware. That's how PC games work. You have minimum requirements, but no maximum requirements so long as the upgraded hardware is compatible.

That's basically what they do nowadays. Although since the console versions don't expose the settings for users to change stuff like resolution, devs will have to patch the new settings in. It's not a lot of work though, most devs will prob go back and do it.

Console games are built around every strength and limit of the console, and even slight changes can break games. The PS2 slim wouldn't play some PS2 games due to this.

Look up PC emulation and what it takes to emulate an older console like the SNES with 100% accuracy. (Top end gaming PCs lack the power to do it) Perfect compatability with different hardware doesn't work when you develop for a fixed spec.

An upgraded console with different specs would break games, they would have to patch every game released before hand just to be safe. It is impractical to do and just not worth it given how short the usual console cycle is.

I thought the xboxone and ps4 were essentially pc gaming machines thought. I read that somewhere, maybe they aren't fully there, but supposedly MUCH closer than any console before. this was brought up in regards to porting games, and the likelihood of any game being 'designed' for the xbox actually performing better on the xbox. the point being made was that both consoles operate more like a 'standard' pc and because of that, there should not be any reason a game would run better on the lower powered machine.

again, I apologize if what I'm asking is ridiculous, I do not have much knowledge on the subject. can you explain how exactly the new consoles differ from a gaming pc? it just seems weird that any game would run worse, or not at all, on a superior piece of hardware.

on a related question, is there a way to use upgraded hardware to achieve identical specs? is it possible a future 'slim' model will be using several new parts that cost less but achieve exactly the same performance and therefore compatibility?

That's basically what they do nowadays. Although since the console versions don't expose the settings for users to change stuff like resolution, devs will have to patch the new settings in. It's not a lot of work though, most devs will prob go back and do it.

if this is the only hang up, would a game still not work fine on lower settings?

I mean, if we use a PC, and you upgrade your video card, and don't change your game settings, they should still work right? it's not like the game NEEDS to be set to optimum settings to function.

if this is the case, then these updates would be optional no? if a developer wished to, they can release the 'new' specs for the updated console so gamers can take advantage of that extra power, but if they choose not to, then the game will still run at the same 'lower' settings as the launch console.

if this is the only hang up, would a game still not work fine on lower settings?

I mean, if we use a PC, and you upgrade your video card, and don't change your game settings, they should still work right? it's not like the game NEEDS to be set to optimum settings to function.

if this is the case, then these updates would be optional no? if a developer wished to, they can release the 'new' specs for the updated console so gamers can take advantage of that extra power, but if they choose not to, then the game will still run at the same 'lower' settings as the launch console.

It wouldn't make sense for them to release an update that broke compatibility with older titles. There's a few different ways they can go about that, and a few different ways any particular game will handle that....there's just too many contingencies to say for sure what the consequences would be.

They are indeed essentially gaming PCs, but since as of right now there's only a single hardware spec, devs have the opportunity to optimize specifically for it. Some of those optimizations may not translate well to a new spec, potentially to the point where it outright breaks it. But in most cases they'll be able to pull code from the PC version to get it working again, since PC games are deliberately programmed to run on anything. Once the precedent is set that the hardware will change over time, they'll better be able to plan ahead for it and ensure a smooth transition.

And yes, there is a way to use upgraded parts and then run in a mode where those new additions are disabled in order to mimic the old spec - this is basically what the Wii did when running GameCube games. If Sony were to release an upgraded spec thats probably the way they'd go about it. On the other hand Microsoft seems to be aiming towards making the Xbox considerably more PC-like, which gives them a lot more flexibility. If you like the idea of upgraded specs and older games improving over time, the Xbox one is a much safer bet than the PS4, although there's no rock solid guarantee it happens on either side.

It wouldn't make sense for them to release an update that broke compatibility with older titles. There's a few different ways they can go about that, and a few different ways any particular game will handle that....there's just too many contingencies to say for sure what the consequences would be.

They are indeed essentially gaming PCs, but since as of right now there's only a single hardware spec, devs have the opportunity to optimize specifically for it. Some of those optimizations may not translate well to a new spec, potentially to the point where it outright breaks it. But in most cases they'll be able to pull code from the PC version to get it working again, since PC games are deliberately programmed to run on anything. Once the precedent is set that the hardware will change over time, they'll better be able to plan ahead for it and ensure a smooth transition.

And yes, there is a way to use upgraded parts and then run in a mode where those new additions are disabled in order to mimic the old spec - this is basically what the Wii did when running GameCube games. If Sony were to release an upgraded spec thats probably the way they'd go about it. On the other hand Microsoft seems to be aiming towards making the Xbox considerably more PC-like, which gives them a lot more flexibility. If you like the idea of upgraded specs and older games improving over time, the Xbox one is a much safer bet than the PS4, although there's no rock solid guarantee it happens on either side.

ok, thanks. I'm just going to accept I don't understand enough about the ins and outs of programming to understand how this would be an issue. thanks for trying, it did help

ok, thanks. I'm just going to accept I don't understand enough about the ins and outs of programming to understand how this would be an issue. thanks for trying, it did help

Hmm...maybe I can break it down more clearly. The hardware of the consoles is basically standard PC hardware. The software is different though.

Every platform has specific programming interfaces (API). There are high level APIs, which generally don't care about the underlying hardware. And low level APIs, which are generally specific to particular CPU or GPU architectures. The low level APIs are more difficult to program, but provide greater performance....but they'll generally only work with that specific architecture.

In windows, the primary API for games DirectX, which is high level, and works on any hardware. Because they have no idea what the underlying hardware is, they provide lots of options for the user to set resolution and effects, etc. So when you upgrade your video card, you can freely change those settings at will and get the full benefit of it immediately.

On xbox one, games are also programmed in DirectX, so most of the PC code comes right over. But developers can also use low level APIs specific to the xbox one. Assuming they're also making a PC version of the same game, to squeeze a little extra performance out they might replace some of the high level code from the PC version with low level code specific to the xbox one. And they know ahead of time what the hardware is capable of, so they choose the resolution, cap the frame rate at 30 or 60, etc. If they release a more powerful xbox that uses the same architecture, everything should still run fine. If a game consistently dropped below it's frame rate target on the original hardware, it might even run better on the new hardware without any modification. But if the game already ran perfectly, the new hardware is wasted. So in that case, the developer just has to go back and patch in new settings, a fairly simple task. But if Microsoft releases a new xbox with a different architecture, none of the old low level code will work on it, and the games break. So they have to go back and replace those optimizations, likely just replacing it with the high level PC code - its not as efficient as writing new low level code specific to the new xbox, but since it's more powerful hardware its not that big of a deal.

On the PS4, games are programmed using APIs specific to the PS4. There's still high level and low level APIs, but neither are directly compatible with DirectX. So it's much more difficult for them to release an updated PS4 with a different architecture, since there isn't a pool of high level PC code to draw from. Nor does Sony have a PC OS that they want to unify with the PS4, so there's zero incentive for them to make PS4 games broadly compatible with other hardware.

As developers get the hang of the hardware they'll use more low level code, and thus the console games becomes less compatible with other hardware as time goes on. Microsoft clearly doesn't want that to happen, so late next year they'll be releasing DirectX 12, which will supposedly provide compatible low level APIs for Xbox and PC...and that's part of why I'm fairly sure they're going to update the xbox. You don't set the table unless you're gonna serve dinner. This is something entirely new and much more difficult that making a low level API for just one architecture...and it's not as efficient either. But they've got the incentive to do it, since they want you to use windows as much as they want you to use xbox. PS4 code on the other hand, will likely get more and more specific to PS4 architecture, making hardware updates more difficult...but also squeezing more and more performance out of the same hardware.

As of right now, the xbox one hardware simply isnt as powerful as the PS4. DirectX 12 isn't as specific to the xbox one as the PS4's low level API, so the performance gulf between the two is probably going to widen even further as time goes on. But if MS releases an xbox 1.5....it'll probably have better hardware than the PS4, so there's a good chance those games that are running at a lower resolution than PS4 today will be patched to run at a higher resolution than the PS4 versions in a few years. And if you ever want to really step it up, there's also a good chance you'll be able to transfer your xbox one games over to PC and fully unlock their potential. But Sony is going to get squeeze a lot of life out of that PS4 for years to come...even if it always ends up lagging behind a new xbox, it'll be way out in front of the current xbox.

Personally, I'm not willing to settle for anything but PC nowadays. But if someone is dead set on a console, I'm more inclined to recommend the xbox at this point, since they'll probably have more options going forward, especially if they want to graduate from little league and play with the big boys on PC. But someone buying a PS4 today will probably get a lot more mileage out of that initial purchase.

PC is alright, but there's something about dedicated consoles that are more appealing to me. I love my PC, love being able to adjust all the settings, max things out, overclock, upgrade to the latest greatest video card (usually the cost of a new console - my last GPU cost me $450), and it's nice being able to experience cutting edge graphics and all that. But when I power on my PS4 or Xbox One, I forget all about it.

Which leads me to believe that better hardware != winner, at least not in my book.

Hmm...maybe I can break it down more clearly. The hardware of the consoles is basically standard PC hardware. The software is different though.

"snip"

thanks for that, it does help explain why things may or may not happen. I'm still a mechanically minded person, and this is where electronics really annoy me. I want to SEE the difference between high level and low level API to really understand why one is efficient and the other is versatile, haha. but what you wrote make sense, and I appreciate the extra effort.

the only thing I'm going to say, you said you'd recommend the xbox, but if what we're speculating is true, the xbox you're really recommending hasn't been made yet... right? the way I see it, many ppl are going to end up with both consoles eventually anyway, and if that is the case, then buying the ps4 now makes more sense. it'll still be the console you'll use in 3-4yrs. but the xboxone, needs to become the xbox 1.5 as you called, and then THAT would be the xbox console to buy. unless I'm mistaken, but there should be no benefit to launch consoles if MS releases one with updated hardware.

so for me, this actually complicates the decision. while I tend to like the xbox experience more than the PS one, from controllers, to exclusives, to GUI... I'm always waiting for the xbox to 'catch' up in terms of performance and features. it's getting close on the features front, starting to look more and more capable without needing a LIVE account, but if I'm going to buy two consoles, it's makes more sense to buy a ps4 now, and the xbox1.5 later, instead of an xboxone now, and xbox1.5 later.

Just remember, BD is counting on something happening that has never happened before with consoles, and only once with handhelds (DSi) A mid gen boost in specs of a core piece of hardware while maintaining perfect BC with the past system. Given the DS lived almost two full gens, that isn't much of a shock though.

However, Nintendo have proven to be very good at this with each generation shift. Wii U has full hardware BC with the Gamecube and 3DS with the GBA, but they removed BC due to cart/disc sizes being an issue along with the controller for consoles. The functionality is there, just no way to use it. It is worth noting that the Wii GPU/CPU board cost as much as the PS4 APU to make, perfect hardware BC is expensive to include generations later.

What BD is hoping for will probably happen with both PS4 and Xbox One, but in 5 years and the start of next gen, not in two or three years. If AMD sees a radical shift in GPU or CPU design, then don't expect it if it makes full BC too much of an added cost.

Just remember, BD is counting on something happening that has never happened before with consoles, and only once with handhelds (DSi) A mid gen boost in specs of a core piece of hardware while maintaining perfect BC with the past system. Given the DS lived almost two full gens, that isn't much of a shock though.

However, Nintendo have proven to be very good at this with each generation shift. Wii U has full hardware BC with the Gamecube and 3DS with the GBA, but they removed BC due to cart/disc sizes being an issue along with the controller for consoles. The functionality is there, just no way to use it. It is worth noting that the Wii GPU/CPU board cost as much as the PS4 APU to make, perfect hardware BC is expensive to include generations later.

What BD is hoping for will probably happen with both PS4 and Xbox One, but in 5 years and the start of next gen, not in two or three years. If AMD sees a radical shift in GPU or CPU design, then don't expect it if it makes full BC too much of an added cost.

that's a good point. they could have made the decision to go more 'pc-like' this time around not for this product cycle, but in prep for the next. I know the lack of BC is a very sore spot for gamers right now, it just wasn't feasible to make the ps4/xboxone BC and I'm sure that's stopped a lot of ppl from becoming early adopters(like me). so perhaps you're right, it's not about setting up for a progressive update, but so that the next generation of consoles can be BC in 5yrs

thanks for that, it does help explain why things may or may not happen. I'm still a mechanically minded person, and this is where electronics really annoy me. I want to SEE the difference between high level and low level API to really understand why one is efficient and the other is versatile, haha. but what you wrote make sense, and I appreciate the extra effort.

the only thing I'm going to say, you said you'd recommend the xbox, but if what we're speculating is true, the xbox you're really recommending hasn't been made yet... right? the way I see it, many ppl are going to end up with both consoles eventually anyway, and if that is the case, then buying the ps4 now makes more sense. it'll still be the console you'll use in 3-4yrs. but the xboxone, needs to become the xbox 1.5 as you called, and then THAT would be the xbox console to buy. unless I'm mistaken, but there should be no benefit to launch consoles if MS releases one with updated hardware.

so for me, this actually complicates the decision. while I tend to like the xbox experience more than the PS one, from controllers, to exclusives, to GUI... I'm always waiting for the xbox to 'catch' up in terms of performance and features. it's getting close on the features front, starting to look more and more capable without needing a LIVE account, but if I'm going to buy two consoles, it's makes more sense to buy a ps4 now, and the xbox1.5 later, instead of an xboxone now, and xbox1.5 later.

What I actually think will happen is slightly different...it looks to me like they're setting the stage for broadening the Xbox ecosystem beyond just a closed platform that Microsoft makes. On one end they're competing with Sony's console, on the other end they're trying to recapture the PC gaming market from valve. Everything points to them unifying the experience across Xbox and PC, to the point where you can barely tell them apart. I believe they'll continue to make their own Xbox hardware, and it will probably be the only way to play retail disc games (due to legitimate privacy concerns.) But just like they integrated a tablet OS in windows 8, and windows media center before then, you'll prob be able to hit the Xbox button on your controller and launch into Xbox mode, just like hitting the green button on a media center remote launched WMC. Because technically....that's what the Xbox one is, a windows 8 PC running a custom UI.

So if all you're ever concerned with is buying a simple to use, well designed box...you'll still be able to buy an xbox and it'll seem like nothing has changed. But PC gaming from the couch has come a long way in the past few years, and Microsoft wants a piece of it before Valve grabs it all. Lots of companies are already preparing console-like PCs for SteamOS, so the hardware part of that equation is already en route. It's now only a matter of MS adapting their software to take advantage of it. And once all that is in place, making an upgraded official Xbox is a piece of cake.

that's a good point. they could have made the decision to go more 'pc-like' this time around not for this product cycle, but in prep for the next. I know the lack of BC is a very sore spot for gamers right now, it just wasn't feasible to make the ps4/xboxone BC and I'm sure that's stopped a lot of ppl from becoming early adopters(like me). so perhaps you're right, it's not about setting up for a progressive update, but so that the next generation of consoles can be BC in 5yrs

I completely understand the skepticism, but I don't think most people appreciate how far along this path they already are. It only sounds far fetched if you haven't been following what they're saying and doing for windows devs. It's only within the past few months that they've revealed a few key things that changed this from idle speculation and wishful thinking into near certainty.

Remember, we're talking about Microsoft here. Consoles are a side gig to them. Their primary business is software, not hardware. They don't have to play by the same rules as Sony and Nintendo.

that's an interesting idea as well. would be interesting to see how they'd market that. could be a fine line between encouraging casual PC gamers to treat an xboxone like a prebuilt gaming rig, without scaring away console gamers worried about losing the simplicity of a console experience.

it would be interesting though, to have a box that lets you play xbox games like normal, but also allows you to play pc games or even run a 'normal' windows OS...

that's an interesting idea as well. would be interesting to see how they'd market that. could be a fine line between encouraging casual PC gamers to treat an xboxone like a prebuilt gaming rig, without scaring away console gamers worried about losing the simplicity of a console experience.

it would be interesting though, to have a box that lets you play xbox games like normal, but also allows you to play pc games or even run a 'normal' windows OS...

Most PC games use an xbox controller nowadays anyway. The only thing standing in the way is control and UI issues, but since it's a PC and super customizable....there's always a way to work around it. This is what I see when I hit the home button on my xbox controller:

Then I just use the d-pad and hit a button to launch it. There's a dozen things in that one pic that are impossible on console. Games from "last gen" without having to worry about BC. Some of those games I don't even own, but I can play them since steam does the family sharing thing xbox one owners are crying that they lost. A lot of those indie games that cost $10-15 on console cost me a few cents through stuff like the humble bundle. I don't have to pay a fee to play any of them online. And they all run in 1080p/60, and load instantaneously off an SSD. Most of them even support 3D, if that's your thing. And when I upgrade, they all improve without having to rebuy them.

I still have a PS4 for the inevitable exclusives, but I havent turned it on in months. Now that I'm used to the freedom on PC, hearing about all the stuff console only gamers have to put up with sounds like some totalitarian nightmare, where they all believe they live in paradise because they don't know any better. So I'm genuinely looking forward to anything that makes it easier for people, cause it's so much better in just about every way.

I'm just not sure how you get the best of both worlds. how do you get PC freedom and customization without losing console reliability and 'mom-proof' simplicity.

obviously I'm a bit of a techno geek since I'm on this forum. I notice more than the 'average' consumer, and I'm more inclined to buy high end products and the like. but I'm still not turned on at all by pc gaming. the fact that my whole goal would be to make the gaming rig as much like a console as possible, seems counterproductive to me. why would I spend 800-1000bux to build a machine to function like an xboxone or ps4?

I would say things like:
-because it can do more than just play games
-I spent that much on my htpc, so why not kill two birds with one stone and make a htpc that can play games
-it won't be obsolete and neither will my collection of games

but then I argue those points:
-if I do more than game on it, i'll have to do continual 'maintenance' to keep it from getting sluggish and maybe even crashing. I've never had a console or dvd player just stop working, but that always happens with my pc's. I end up reinstalling windows probably every 18months or so...
-my htpc is already more complicated than it should be, I'd rather move away from needing to maintain several different programs and codecs and all that. seems like every other month there's an update for one program that breaks compatibility with another
-but it may require continual upgrades to stay relevant

like I said, I just don't know how you can get both at the same time. the things that make pc gaming more powerful and open are exactly the things that make it more complicated and 'risky'. we already saw the reaction between MS's 'center of the universe' approach vs sony's 'it's a game console' marketing. I will obviously keep an open mind, but it's almost like they need to run a dual boot OS kind of thing. most of the time all I want is to insert a disc and start playing. I hate the updates, I hate the online stuff, I hate the DLC stuff, I'd really be annoyed having to adjust settings other than switching the difficulty to easy, haha. if they can manage to maintain that simplicity, then I wouldn't really care if flipping a switch turned it into a basic PC for other ppl.

I'm just not sure how you get the best of both worlds. how do you get PC freedom and customization without losing console reliability and 'mom-proof' simplicity.

obviously I'm a bit of a techno geek since I'm on this forum. I notice more than the 'average' consumer, and I'm more inclined to buy high end products and the like. but I'm still not turned on at all by pc gaming. the fact that my whole goal would be to make the gaming rig as much like a console as possible, seems counterproductive to me. why would I spend 800-1000bux to build a machine to function like an xboxone or ps4?

I would say things like:
-because it can do more than just play games
-I spent that much on my htpc, so why not kill two birds with one stone and make a htpc that can play games
-it won't be obsolete and neither will my collection of games

but then I argue those points:
-if I do more than game on it, i'll have to do continual 'maintenance' to keep it from getting sluggish and maybe even crashing. I've never had a console or dvd player just stop working, but that always happens with my pc's. I end up reinstalling windows probably every 18months or so...
-my htpc is already more complicated than it should be, I'd rather move away from needing to maintain several different programs and codecs and all that. seems like every other month there's an update for one program that breaks compatibility with another
-but it may require continual upgrades to stay relevant

like I said, I just don't know how you can get both at the same time. the things that make pc gaming more powerful and open are exactly the things that make it more complicated and 'risky'. we already saw the reaction between MS's 'center of the universe' approach vs sony's 'it's a game console' marketing. I will obviously keep an open mind, but it's almost like they need to run a dual boot OS kind of thing. most of the time all I want is to insert a disc and start playing. I hate the updates, I hate the online stuff, I hate the DLC stuff, I'd really be annoyed having to adjust settings other than switching the difficulty to easy, haha. if they can manage to maintain that simplicity, then I wouldn't really care if flipping a switch turned it into a basic PC for other ppl.

Well that's the challenge. And it's primarily a software problem. But remember...the Xbox one already is a windows PC under the hood. Most of the job is porting over the things that make the Xbox one feel like a console over to "real" windows. For people that don't care about upgradability, there's going to be lots of small console-like PCs coming out soon. For settings, nvidia already has a program that can automatically pick optimal settings based on your GPU.

A while ago I had a WMC box under my TV, a tiny little zotac box the size of a paperback. And it ran for years without ever touching the desktop. My wife would never have known it was a windows PC if I didn't tell her, and it was prob the easiest, most user friendly DVR she's ever used. So MS has done it before, I don't see why they couldn't do it again, especially as they've kind of proven it can already be done, by making the Xbox one based on windows.

Well that's the challenge. And it's primarily a software problem. But remember...the Xbox one already is a windows PC under the hood. Most of the job is porting over the things that make the Xbox one feel like a console over to "real" windows. For people that don't care about upgradability, there's going to be lots of small console-like PCs coming out soon. For settings, nvidia already has a program that can automatically pick optimal settings based on your GPU.

A while ago I had a WMC box under my TV, a tiny little zotac box the size of a paperback. And it ran for years without ever touching the desktop. My wife would never have known it was a windows PC if I didn't tell her, and it was prob the easiest, most user friendly DVR she's ever used. So MS has done it before, I don't see why they couldn't do it again, especially as they've kind of proven it can already be done, by making the Xbox one based on windows.

I have a little zotac zbox in my bedroom. I understand pc's CAN run fine for years and years. but I also know the chances of that happening go down quickly the more you do with it. if all I do is run xbmc or even just windows media center, it's pretty solid. but even with that, I've had to reinstall my media browser at least once due to a significant software update, and that's exactly my point. the xbox physically as a pc means nothing. it's how it's used. and I just don't see how you can use it like a pc without opening yourself up to things like viruses and awkward updates

I have a little zotac zbox in my bedroom. I understand pc's CAN run fine for years and years. but I also know the chances of that happening go down quickly the more you do with it. if all I do is run xbmc or even just windows media center, it's pretty solid. but even with that, I've had to reinstall my media browser at least once due to a significant software update, and that's exactly my point. the xbox physically as a pc means nothing. it's how it's used. and I just don't see how you can use it like a pc without opening yourself up to things like viruses and awkward updates

True, but that's part of the choice. If you use it like a console, it'll be as reliable as a console. If you want to get your hands dirty, you accept a little more risk. But even so, it's still much easier than it used to be. Windows 8 has a built in virus scanner. Reinstalling windows used to be a major PITA. Nowadays you just click "refresh my pc" and it does it automatically in a few minutes, and redownloads all your windows store apps and settings from the cloud (including games and saves). If your windows install gets hosed for whatever reason, you can easily repair it without a disc too. So every time you can replace a desktop app with a windows store app, you don't need to worry about updates or backups anymore. And since they're making it easy to make universal windows store and xbox apps, there should be a lot more controller friendly windows apps. Once you can do everything you want to do with it without ever seeing the desktop, it's a total game changer.

For sure, its pretty awkward to use a PC like a console right now...but that's only because this is a relatively new thing, and it's improving rapidly. What it means to "use it like a PC" is going to be very different in a year or two.

i see the possibility, I'm just pretty far from convinced at this point.

just because I may never use it as more than a console, doesn't mean I won't hear and read horror stories from ppl who did. and if I hear a bunch of complaints about the xbox, then I might start liking the ps4 better. it's just the way it goes, unless I'm intimately familiar with the product, it's hard to not let word of mouth influence your decision, and that's why I think it'll be tough for a console to pull it off without ANY negative press.

it's almost like the plasma/lcd debate. plasma might be better 99% of the time, but it has a tiny bit more 'maintenance' and risk of damage, and now it's all but dead. the 'market' seem to pay more attention to what breaks or doesn't work well than they pay attention to what performs the best.

I'm curious though, when you talk about w8 being so easy to reinstall. is that assuming you only use programs you got from windows? cause there's at least a dozen programs I 'rely' on and it's usually an hour or two of sitting by the computer to get them all installed and set up every time I reformat. those programs include things like WinRAR, vlc, shark codec, media browser, media center master, avast, anydvd, as well as stuff like Microsoft office, my printer software suite, vid card software, etc. if there's a way I can have all that stuff done automatically, I'd be real interested to hear it.

i see the possibility, I'm just pretty far from convinced at this point.

just because I may never use it as more than a console, doesn't mean I won't hear and read horror stories from ppl who did. and if I hear a bunch of complaints about the xbox, then I might start liking the ps4 better. it's just the way it goes, unless I'm intimately familiar with the product, it's hard to not let word of mouth influence your decision, and that's why I think it'll be tough for a console to pull it off without ANY negative press.

it's almost like the plasma/lcd debate. plasma might be better 99% of the time, but it has a tiny bit more 'maintenance' and risk of damage, and now it's all but dead. the 'market' seem to pay more attention to what breaks or doesn't work well than they pay attention to what performs the best.

I'm curious though, when you talk about w8 being so easy to reinstall. is that assuming you only use programs you got from windows? cause there's at least a dozen programs I 'rely' on and it's usually an hour or two of sitting by the computer to get them all installed and set up every time I reformat. those programs include things like WinRAR, vlc, shark codec, media browser, media center master, avast, anydvd, as well as stuff like Microsoft office, my printer software suite, vid card software, etc. if there's a way I can have all that stuff done automatically, I'd be real interested to hear it.

Yeah, it's only that seamless for windows store apps right now. But since they're bringing windows store apps to the desktop soon, I expect a lot of desktop apps will make that transition. It'd be great if they allowed traditional windows apps in there too, so stuff like winrar can have the same level of convenience, but that's unknown right now. Either way, it's clearly improving over time....I find a need to do a lot less every time I reinstall, and windows rarely degenerates to the point where it needs constant reinstalls like back in the XP days. Generally I try to use the portable version of apps whenever I can, or export all the settings etc. If you use chrome, you just reinstall it and it automatically sets itself back up just like you had it. Most steam stuff is saved in steam cloud. I know there's a tool in windows 8 to back up your settings, I dunno to the extent that it does that for desktop stuff, but I havent had to reinstall in so long that I havent had a chance to find out.

It's def still too much of a PITA right now for sure, but again....it's a solvable software problem, and it's only been getting easier to do all this stuff as time goes on. I dont think the xbox one or any future xbox will ever allow desktop apps like anyDVD, to preserve it's simplicity. But the easier it gets on the "real" PC side, the less people will be scared away from making their own xbox.

yeah, I could see how that could work on something like an xbox. as long as everything you do funnels through MS at some point, they can keep it pretty idiot-proof. you just wouldn't get that full pc freedom yet. it would be an interesting, and realistic middle step though.

kind of like the iphone/android ecosystem. even though you can do so much, it's set up so that everything comes from a single source.