I have never been confused nor was involved in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.

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LeedonModerator

Joined: 25 Mar 2005Posts: 1478

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:30 am Post subject:

To answer the first question, I'd say that those individual spots would need to be looked at individually. It could just be that there's a big tree that keeps you from seeing around the corner. There's a spot about a block from my house that has a row of bushes blocking the way and you have to stop short of the stop sign to see what's coming. It's all a case by case thing. If there's more traffic, maybe adding a stoplight wouldn't be a bad idea. People are less likely to run a stoplight, but that easily could end up being an annoyance or complete overkill.

With what you said about the yield sign, I don't think it would help. Most of us agree, it seems, that the problem is people treating stop signs like yield signs. If you changed the signs then it would just make what they're doing legal and make the people that were stopping before add into the statistic of people that yielded and got into accidents.

As far as the second question, I don't know if they were four way stops or not. Maybe I misread what you said, but I thought you said that Europe used less than 15% of the number of stop signs that we do in general. That statement doesn't make any sense at all unless they use all traffic lights or no road markings at all. I'm pretty sure they used road markings.

-CP_________________Flirtin' with disaster,
Ya'll know what I mean.
You know the way we run our lives,
It makes no sense to me.

There is no "Stop and Go" or "Stop and Yeild." It's "Stop." Period. Fredrick, you need to re-educate yourself on the rules of the road before talking about this any further. I've heard about as much as I can stand of this nonsense.

Fredrick, you've created these distinctions but regardless of whether it's a 4 way stop or a two way stop at a 4 way intersection, you still have to stop. Then you yeild to traffic that has the right of way. Then you go. If anything, it's "Stop and Yield and Go" in both your examples. The only difference is the rules determining right of way, and a different sign isn't going to correct that since those rules are a part of every driver's instruction._________________"I don't have dreams about the Navy. The Navy killed all of my dreams." - Buddy Lee

My last post was directed at the original poster Mish, not you. I understood you were just using his terms, same as most of us did. I edited my last post to clarify who I was refering to._________________"I don't have dreams about the Navy. The Navy killed all of my dreams." - Buddy Lee

Okay, you all. I have gotten the message, especially about wording and how important it is. It is confusing to use words that are then used as part of the other word(s). It is one of the things I am grateful about asking you, since this focuses my attention to wording.

The other thing I learned about your responses is that, if I don't get the language cleaned up, and don't get the two kinds of intersection untangled, I will get no-where. I consider it an important issue, and wished the FHWA would collect the information so I would have harder evidence.

I went to a website of European signs, and I added their signs here for main roads with right of way. They've got two sets of signs indicating being on a road with right of way and one sign indicating the end of that privilege. I think European signs can only be construed to mean one thing (correct me if I am wrong), meaning they are placed in a single kind of situation. (Yes, Leedon, I hear your argument, and all by themselves your words are correct, but my words are correct too. I just need to be really careful how I use my words to convey the exact problem I see, which can be quite difficult, for words are never just black-and-white tools.)

These signs are used for the people on the road with the right of way (or the road where the right of way is ending). Users of the other roads without the right of way, approaching a road with the right of way, yield for the cars on that road — and they see our yield sign to indicate that they need to yield. About the word yield, it means (in my words): hold your horses to let the others pass, including stopping if that is needed.

Please, feel free to free yourself from this thread on stop signs. I am very grateful for all information, and I have now learned how careful I need to tread on this issue (if at all). I am glad to see all your angles on why I should or should not consider this an important issue. You are the best.

Last edited by Fredrick on Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:35 pm; edited 17 times in total

I would like to point out that the graphical example you posted is incorrect, there is no such thing as a Yield sign at any intersection where the roads are perpendicular, except in the case of certain turning lanes, usually separated by a median of some kind. And then I believe only in the case of right turns. I've never seen one for a left, anyway. In order for there to be a Yield sign there has to be the physical opportunity for the driver to continue driving without stopping or slowing, a perpendicular roadway doesn't give you that opportunity._________________"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte

Any battle will do, Ashlad. But what is interesting about this battle is that I only win if you get to see my point. I think I am seeing your point(s).

A yield sign is indeed only used for a right turning lane (as far as the examples go that I have seen in my neighborhood, a place otherwise plastered with stop signs (but not everywhere, some crossings have only two stop signs, one of these crossings was where I exprienced two near-misses: one my fault, one someone else's). What I created with the two yield signs was the solution for the problem with stop signs at a road with the right of way (problem being that the traffic situation is basically different from a four-stop intersection).

Yet the word yield does not mean being able to continue. It means having to give the other the right of way, the other goes first. And that can include stopping when needed.

Last edited by Fredrick on Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

I believe the sign only means you must yield to traffic that has the right of way if said traffic is present. Otherwise, you may continue on without slowing._________________"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte

i have to be honest, and say that in my time in europe, i was either walking, or rideing, usually too inebriated to make heads or tails of the road signs. i will say, though, that traffic circles are much more prevelant in england, though i'm not sure about the rest of europe. they have yeild signs on the entrances, and everyone turns on in one direction, then out in the opposite direction. also, as europe is more mass transit friendly, i'm given to understand that it is much, much harder to get a liscence there. perhaps instead of changing the signs, we should change the liscencing process. maybe force bad drivers to take the bus or something. hell, i'd love it if mass transit was more accessable here. i take a ferry to work, and the best part about it is that i have 20 minutes guaranteed time to goof off, both on the way to work, and on the way home. i'd use purely public transport if it was more accessable. but since it isn't, i ride my motorcycle to the ferry, and then from the ferry to work._________________A west bean pays the fish a soup.

Which is why they don't do it. It would be chaotic at best to put Yields at intersections like that. Stop signs are better at controlling traffic flow, the rules are very clear for who has right of way if you've learned what you are supposed to, it keeps things moving regularly and in the proper order. Yield signs are almost exclusively used for merging purposes, and drivers very rarely have to stop completely and for extended periods of time(maybe on 66 eastbound at 5pm). Besides, it is every driver's responsibility to already know what they are supposed to do before they get out onto the road._________________"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte

Okay, here is my last piece of information, because I think the lines have been drawn and the battle may still be smoking, but there's not much honor to be had here, so here's one last piece on my motivation.

The near-accident I experienced, while driving on a road with the right of way at about 65 miles an hour (I think that was the speed limit, but maybe I drove too fast), and then a slow moving car getting onto my road from a very similar looking road that has a stop sign, is the original reason I created this site.

I was able to see the other driver's face quite well, and seeing an expression of: "Oh, my god, that's right, they don't have a stop sign." (or something similar) The traffic situation was like a Y-crossing, with my car coming from the bottom end of the Y going up to the top-left of the Y — with the right of way. The other car came from the top-right side of Y with a stop sign, and did not see whether I had a stop sign or not. And could not see if I had a sign on my side of the road, which would have been placed some 150 yards away, or not. The driver expected me to slow down (for didn't I have a stop sign?) and realized too late that that was not the case.

Other than that, the roads looked pretty much the same. It was a near miss. It is very possible I could not have had this conversation here with you. All because of a stupid sign not telling the other driver what traffic situation was ahead. Comment please on the fact that the designers of the road carry a good amount of responsibility and that a yield sign would have prevented this near miss (for it would have informed the other driver clearly in advance).

The other two near misses were in my urban neighborhood, much like the second part of my drawing. About 99% of the intersections here have four stop signs. This one doesn't. One near-miss was my fault, the other near-miss the other driver. I would not have died in either accident, but it would have been so unnecessary if I, or the other person, would have had the information of the intersection spelled out by a single sign (yield or otherwise, but not the stop sign which is truly used all over the place here).

Disagree. People are stupid and careless, and we can fix that, one part at a time. Besides, planners are people too. Ergonomics is the scientific approach to make whatever we create in our environment fit us, instead of having to make us fit to what humans created. The car itself is a prime example of ergonomics; we're not driving in cars like they built them 100 years ago anymore: they fit us much better nowadays.

But I am quite happy with all the comments. I have heard various solutions for improvements:

have people take driving lessons and test them well.

include an extra sign saying "other traffic does not have a stop sign."

parking lots are fun.

good data may sway some of you; we lack that info today coz no one is collecting it.

location specific solutions may be in place.

Europe most likely uses the stop sign in one situation only, not two (there are no four stop intersections there).

though a yield sign is more permissive, the permissiveness is not the issue; the number of deadly accidents is the issue. Good drivers still get killed by bad drivers and (my last words) lousy, err, correction, flawed design.

People cannot be fixed. There is already enough information out there on the roads and in the classrooms telling people what they are supposed to do, and people still keep being stupid. You can't fix someone intentionally disobeying the law, you can't fix people being too stupid to understand the law._________________"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte

I do not feel that it is people being to stupid to understand the law. They just choose not to follow it. I for example did a rolling stop at a stop sign on my way to work this morring. 4:30 AM no traffic around no need to stop. I do however slow way down just in case. I am not following the posted sign but I make it so I could if I needed to. Also I am choosing to now follow the sign. Later in the day, I do stop at this same stop sign because the road I am merging onto is much busier and now the need for a complete stop is there. I can see on comming traffic for about 1/4 mile maybe more. I feel I am justified.
Also tradition and how you are raised play into wether or not you follow the rules of the road, also how you follow the rules of the road. Yobun and I drive very diffrently. I follow Speed limit signs much closer than he does. So when we are in a rush he drives._________________Teachers open the door. You enter by yourself.
-Chinese Proverb-

Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell 'em, 'Certainly I can!' Then get busy and find out how to do it.
-Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)-