Proper Grip & Recoil Managment

This is a discussion on Proper Grip & Recoil Managment within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ^ I'm not yet at full lock/presentation on that - that's a FTF-cartridge that I just sent up clear of the gun.
VIDEO0026.mp4 - YouTube
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^ End-of-day (HE01, TD2) fun-contest game. I bet you can see which round it was that I tossed simply by watching the way the gun recoils, over on the right-hand kill-box shot (very last string of 5). I still hadn't been able, yet, to internalize Costa's much more aggressive stance: I actually didn't come to grips with that until some time between TD1 and TD2 of HE02. And you can see that I obviously have yet to start getting into the competition world (I plan to, later this fall - it's not that I think I shoot all that well, rather, it's that I've seen how efficiently the competitors can run their guns, and I aspire to that level of efficiency), since I failed to be able to "game" that mag-change in the middle.

I'm getting that grip down, DRM! , and one of these days, I *will* be at your classes!!!!

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BTW, for those watching that video, you can see that's what happens to me under stress. My convulsive 100/100 grip sometimes places my weapon/dominant (right) hand thumb over the slide-lock/release of my XDms enough that I cause the gun to fail to lock-back on-empty.

Repeat an exercise often enough, and it becomes relegated to muscle memory. Notice the use of the word "about". Clinching the pistol as tightly as one can with both hands doesn't, based on my own experience with handgun shooting, strike me as better for anything except fighting to maintain possession of one's firearm.

Agreed…

If I train thoroughly enough, often enough, that IS how my body will respond under pressure.

That’s how I look at it...

I think Hack said it best: “You’ll not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training.”

Personally, I believe that it takes the average person a MINIMUM of 1,000 reps for something to become engrained into their muscle memory. This works both for us and against us. If it’s a solid technique, that’s good. But if it’s a training scar, that’s bad.

A good example this (in the form of a “training scar”) is the famous FBI shootout where the guys actually saved their spent brass from their revo’s because that’s what they did on the range.

^ End-of-day (HE01, TD2) fun-contest game. I bet you can see which round it was that I tossed simply by watching the way the gun recoils, over on the right-hand kill-box shot (very last string of 5). I still hadn't been able, yet, to internalize Costa's much more aggressive stance: I actually didn't come to grips with that until some time between TD1 and TD2 of HE02. And you can see that I obviously have yet to start getting into the competition world (I plan to, later this fall - it's not that I think I shoot all that well, rather, it's that I've seen how efficiently the competitors can run their guns, and I aspire to that level of efficiency), since I failed to be able to "game" that mag-change in the middle.

I'm getting that grip down, DRM! , and one of these days, I *will* be at your classes!!!!

----

BTW, for those watching that video, you can see that's what happens to me under stress. My convulsive 100/100 grip sometimes places my weapon/dominant (right) hand thumb over the slide-lock/release of my XDms enough that I cause the gun to fail to lock-back on-empty.

I think Hack said it best: “You’ll not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training.”

Personally, I believe that it takes the average person a MINIMUM of 1,000 reps for something to become engrained into their muscle memory. This works both for us and against us. If it’s a solid technique, that’s good. But if it’s a training scar, that’s bad.

A good example this (in the form of a “training scar”) is the famous FBI shootout where the guys actually saved their spent brass from their revo’s because that’s what they did on the range.

After years of using a modified Weaver with the support hand index finger pressing on the trigger guard (and impressively mediocre improvement), I am about 2500 rounds into the technique you, John Benner, David Bowie and several other instructors who have worked with me advocate. It took about 2000 rounds for it to become natural to me, and while initially skeptical and often a bit frustrated, I am now very pleased with my results. I spent good money for the training, and I am now glad I have continued to apply the lessons. A couple other things I learned were to just strip the empty mag and let it drop, and to top off with a full mag after every exercise. The only brass I save during shooting is that which winds up in my shirt pocket.

^ I really like the proactive strip-and-rip: I actually most of the time end up needing to do it to my Compact. I'm definitely slowly transitioning to that technique, as well as gaining proficiency in hitting that slide-release after the reload.

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Originally Posted by Harryball

P.S. I think you are out of the noob status that you like to refer to.....

^ Nah, bro, you should see me shoot - I'm definitely still quite the noob.

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Originally Posted by DRM

I think Hack said it best: “You’ll not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training.”

I think it's actually more accurate to say that we should not expect to rise to the occasion (since there's plenty of examples of people who really do ), but rather, to expect to default to the level of training that we have truly mastered.

It's undeniable that there are countless reports of people who have otherwise never had formal training, who have prevailed in violent confrontations. However, it would be dangerous (and truly bordering on stupid, in my view) to think that getting lucky is anything but that.

At the same time, I do not think that simply having been well taught -through training- means that you will necessarily be able to come out on-top. I feel that one must have internalized the lessons taught and the knowledge conferred, and to be able to truly call upon those skills, demonstrating one's proficiency. After all, if we can't run a drill clean in the context of training, why would we think that when we're called on to complete it under stress, that we'd be able to do it, at all?

But yeah, DRM, I totally get what you're saying, and I heartily agree.

After years of using a modified Weaver with the support hand index finger pressing on the trigger guard (and impressively mediocre improvement), I am about 2500 rounds into the technique you, John Benner, David Bowie and several other instructors who have worked with me advocate. It took about 2000 rounds for it to become natural to me, and while initially skeptical and often a bit frustrated, I am now very pleased with my results. I spent good money for the training, and I am now glad I have continued to apply the lessons. A couple other things I learned were to just strip the empty mag and let it drop, and to top off with a full mag after every exercise. The only brass I save during shooting is that which winds up in my shirt pocket.After years of using a modified Weaver with the support hand index finger pressing on the trigger guard (and impressively mediocre improvement), I am about 2500 rounds into the technique you, John Benner, David Bowie and several other instructors who have worked with me advocate. It took about 2000 rounds for it to become natural to me, and while initially skeptical and often a bit frustrated, I am now very pleased with my results. I spent good money for the training, and I am now glad I have continued to apply the lessons. A couple other things I learned were to just strip the empty mag and let it drop, and to top off with a full mag after every exercise.

You are in good hands, my friend…

I love John Benner’s knife, it’s my favorite for carry (and I carry 2 of them in Peter Janda’s sheaths when riding my Harley). Peter also made me some GREAT Glock holsters which I truly LOVE and have been my favorites for years now. His stuff is top notch and you can find them (when he's not sold out) at FIN Design.

The only brass I save during shooting is that which winds up in my shirt pocket.

^ I really like the proactive strip-and-rip: I actually most of the time end up needing to do it to my Compact. I'm definitely slowly transitioning to that technique, as well as gaining proficiency in hitting that slide-release after the reload.

-----

^ Nah, bro, you should see me shoot - I'm definitely still quite the noob.

-----

I think it's actually more accurate to say that we should not expect to rise to the occasion (since there's plenty of examples of people who really do ), but rather, to expect to default to the level of training that we have truly mastered.

It's undeniable that there are countless reports of people who have otherwise never had formal training, who have prevailed in violent confrontations. However, it would be dangerous (and truly bordering on stupid, in my view) to think that getting lucky is anything but that.

At the same time, I do not think that simply having been well taught -through training- means that you will necessarily be able to come out on-top. I feel that one must have internalized the lessons taught and the knowledge conferred, and to be able to truly call upon those skills, demonstrating one's proficiency. After all, if we can't run a drill clean in the context of training, why would we think that when we're called on to complete it under stress, that we'd be able to do it, at all?

But yeah, DRM, I totally get what you're saying, and I heartily agree.

You are being humble, and that my friend is a good thing. We are all still learning the pistol craft. That is why good instructors continue to take classes from other instructors. I think Im going to give DRM a look after I take a class with Yeager....

I love John Benner’s knife, it’s my favorite for carry (and I carry 2 of them in Peter Janda’s sheaths when riding my Harley). Peter also made me some GREAT Glock holsters which I truly LOVE and have been my favorites for years now. His stuff is top notch and you can find them (when he's not sold out) at FIN Design.

HA! Bully for you...

Speaking of John Benner's knife, I will be taking the two-day defensive knife course the next time it is offered. I'll check out the sheath you recommended.

^ Not at all, my friend. It's really the truth. The past year has been very eye-opening for me, both seeing top-tier shooters demo their craft as well as having witnessed, first-hand, where the more serious hobbyist shooters are, in terms of their proficiency. It's definitely something for me to aspire to, and despite knowing that I will likely never get to level of the former, I can nevertheless always strive to be a better shooter than I was yesterday.

We are all still learning the pistol craft. That is why good instructors continue to take classes from other instructors.

Ain't that the truth. Both Vogel and Costa have changed various aspects of their shooting since I started to "study"/follow them just over a year ago, and their continued evolution is testament to that "never enough" outlook, what we're perpetual students, always keeping an open mind, always looking to do better.

I think Im going to give DRM a look after I take a class with Yeager....

It looks like you're starting a bucket list, too, huh?

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Originally Posted by DRM

I second that motion. You are a good student of the gun, TSiWRX...

Thanks, DRM. You have no idea how much those words serve as further encouragement. I'll try my best not to let you guys down, Harryball and DRM!

Question on the reload: have you ever quantified the differences between your "practical reload" versus having the magazine drop free?

I feel that the current dogma is that allowing the magazine to drop free is significantly faster. However, I think that a properly executed "practical reload" can be quite advantageous (that it insures that the spent magazine is out of the gun, with-certainty) - and that the time difference isn't that big of a gap.

Surf over on M4Carbine recently quantified his observed differences in using the slide-stop/release (both with weapon hand thumb [he's right-handed] as well as with the reaction hand thumb, versus the overhand "powerstroke"), which is what got me thinking, here......

^ End-of-day (HE01, TD2) fun-contest game. I bet you can see which round it was that I tossed simply by watching the way the gun recoils, over on the right-hand kill-box shot (very last string of 5). I still hadn't been able, yet, to internalize Costa's much more aggressive stance: I actually didn't come to grips with that until some time between TD1 and TD2 of HE02. And you can see that I obviously have yet to start getting into the competition world (I plan to, later this fall - it's not that I think I shoot all that well, rather, it's that I've seen how efficiently the competitors can run their guns, and I aspire to that level of efficiency), since I failed to be able to "game" that mag-change in the middle.

I'm getting that grip down, DRM! , and one of these days, I *will* be at your classes!!!!

----

BTW, for those watching that video, you can see that's what happens to me under stress. My convulsive 100/100 grip sometimes places my weapon/dominant (right) hand thumb over the slide-lock/release of my XDms enough that I cause the gun to fail to lock-back on-empty.

Question on the reload: have you ever quantified the differences between your "practical reload" versus having the magazine drop free? I feel that the current dogma is that allowing the magazine to drop free is significantly faster.

Having the mag drop free (i.e., EJECT OUT) is definitely faster…when and “IF” it does drop free/eject out.

However, if you adopt the “Practical Reload” as shown on the DVD’s, you simply bump the mag button with the tip of the off hand thumb. And “IF” the mag hangs up (due to mud, sand, grit, or whatever) you can then “RIP IT” out on the way by using the off hand as it goes down for the spare mag. After all, the off hand is already wrapped around (and over) the firing hand when you push the mag button. A fail safe technique, if you will.

Bottom Line: The deal is if the mag ejects out fine. If not, your off hand is in motion and CAN rip it out if needed on the way by. No great loss in time.

However, I think that a properly executed "practical reload" can be quite advantageous (that it insures that the spent magazine is out of the gun, with-certainty) - and that the time difference isn't that big of a gap.

EXACTLY. The key word here is "with-certainty"...

Surf over on M4Carbine recently quantified his observed differences in using the slide-stop/release (both with weapon hand thumb [he's right-handed] as well as with the reaction hand thumb, versus the overhand "powerstroke"), which is what got me thinking, here......

Having had the privilege of shooting with (and competing against) hot shot guys like Sevigny and Jarrett at the World Class level in IDPA, I feel qualified to say this:

If your gun is designed properly (and/or is set up correctly) the slide release method using the Off Hand thumb is DEFINITELY faster (unless your wearing gloves, which leads us to yet another method of slide release/rack which is better suited for Team Guys ).

But “IF” the slide lock/release lever doesn’t work reliably 100% of the time, you’ll screw the pooch on the reload (sooner or later, trust me, been there, seen it, done it). That’s why the over hand rack always works, 100% of the time, albeit slower. And so does my Practical Reload.