It doesn't seem that Piper is saying he might be wrong. It seems he is saying that others who deny the universal aspect of God's love in the passages that are constantly thrown at Calvinists might be wrong.

He is showing that (as with other great truths of the Bible) it is possible to hold the universal aspect of God's love and God's restrictive election in tension together because the Bible does. The doctrine of election is not set aside because "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

This is not new teaching. Many hold to this from both sides. I think it is wrong, for it is used only to show how God could have "done it"..whatever "it" maybe at the time.

God has only ONE will. Its like the the earth. The light only shines on one side that we can see. The dark side, we are not sure of and we are not sure what is there, but still it is Gods will. He still has only ONE will.

We as humans think we must understand it all. And...we as the church think all things that SEEM to be easy..and smooth is Gods will. So, if we pray for Gods will and BAD happens..we then think we have left Gods will.

In other words. Why did God have Jim Elliott die in a plane crash? Do you not think that Jim cried out to God to save his life as his plane started to fall? I'm sure Jim prayed ..and asked God to save him and the others. Jim was a missionary to the Acua Indians. Jim had a unmatched burden for these people. It was these people..the ones he came to win to the Lord, that shot his plane down.

Jim died. Was it not Gods will for jim to be there?

Yes..jim was in Gods will. Sometimes Gods will is hard to follow and like Job it seems like God is not there. But His plan is greater then ours. In the end, Jim not only reached these people but many others as the story of his death, has been told around the world. Many, many people have been lead to the Lord because Jim stayed in Gods will. That dark side on Gods will was hard to understand when Jim died. Yet God knew what He was doing.

Being in Gods will does not mean we understand Gods will.

One God..
One Decree...
One Word...
One Son...
One Way....
One Will...

James, with all due respect, your response has nothing to do with what Piper is talking about. He is not suggesting that when things go wrong, they are not God's will. Of course, everything that happens does so at the decree of God. Therefore, this is said to be God's will.

But we must admit that there are verses that talk about God not wishing destruction on the wicked, but desiring their repentance. How do we balance these two seemingly opposite ideas? Some have postulated a sovereign will of decree and a will of desire. God desires all to come to Him, but only decrees some to come to Him. The Bible uses the word "will" for both cases. So, either God's one will is at odds with itself or He has two forms of a will.

I believe that Piper is right in that God's will has many sides. He wills that we obey Him. But from the creation He willed that we be free moral agents knowing full well that these wills of His would someday clash. But only for a divinely appointed time frame.

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Gen. 6:3

"For He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." Rom. 9:28

So God knows that someday He will bring all of these things against His present will into subjection unto Himself (1 Cor. 15:24-28). So then Calvinists that correctly argue for His sovereignty must first realize that His full will is in flux at the moment in an area that we call time.

God lives outside of time, and He knows that outside of our time all things will fall completely under His will as was His will all along. A day is as a thousand years for Him, and a thousand years as a day. Remember?

Remember also that Jesus asked us to pray:

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Mt. 6:10

The obvious conclusion when reading that verse is that His will is not being done in completeness here on Earth. Why, even Christians many times balk at His will. To deny this fact is folly. How many times have we heard of God speaking to Christian's hearts about serving Him in some capacity and them refusing to do so. Just like Jonas.

But God needed even our sinfulness to show us His supreme love for us, and that love will be enhanced throughout eternity by knowing the depths of His giving of His Son Who also died for us. This is something that the angels look into, but will never know like we do or will(1 Pet. 1:10-12).

So then, who is right? Both the Calvinist and the Arminian depending on what time frame you want to use to look at His sovereignty. The Calvinist is right with the eternal aspect in view. And the Arminian is right in the present time frame.

Originally posted by Jarthur001: This is not new teaching. Many hold to this from both sides. I think it is wrong, for it is used only to show how God could have "done it"..whatever "it" maybe at the time.

God has only ONE will. Its like the the earth. The light only shines on one side that we can see. The dark side, we are not sure of and we are not sure what is there, but still it is Gods will. He still has only ONE will.

We as humans think we must understand it all. And...we as the church think all things that SEEM to be easy..and smooth is Gods will. So, if we pray for Gods will and BAD happens..we then think we have left Gods will.

In other words. Why did God have Jim Elliott die in a plane crash? Do you not think that Jim cried out to God to save his life as his plane started to fall? I'm sure Jim prayed ..and asked God to save him and the others. Jim was a missionary to the Acua Indians. Jim had a unmatched burden for these people. It was these people..the ones he came to win to the Lord, that shot his plane down.

Jim died. Was it not Gods will for jim to be there?

Yes..jim was in Gods will. Sometimes Gods will is hard to follow and like Job it seems like God is not there. But His plan is greater then ours. In the end, Jim not only reached these people but many others as the story of his death, has been told around the world. Many, many people have been lead to the Lord because Jim stayed in Gods will. That dark side on Gods will was hard to understand when Jim died. Yet God knew what He was doing.

Being in Gods will does not mean we understand Gods will.

One God..
One Decree...
One Word...
One Son...
One Way....
One Will...

This is God.

In Christ...James

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James, I believe you might be served to check up on a couple of facts. Nate Saint's plane, the one the missionaries were riding in was not shot down, but had landed, in fact, at the locale they identified as 'Palm Beach'. The five missionaries who had made contact with the Waodani or Auca tribe were ambushed at Palm Beach, on the Curaway River. FTR, I have heard the story related personally from Sam Padilla, the son of Dayuma, and I was priviliged to meet Rachel Saint, known as 'Star' among the tribe, while I was in Bible College.

Hold whatever one may believe that Scripture teaches on one or two wills (although I personally think that God's "permissive will" is not necessarily always the same as His "directive will', and I think there is Scripture to show this), but please don't misrepresent a story without bothering to check it out. Is that a fair request?

Originally posted by JackRUS: Well, I am quite sure that it is not in His will that any should...

SIN!

But we still do, don't we?

I believe that Piper is right in that God's will has many sides. He wills that we obey Him. But from the creation He willed that we be free moral agents knowing full well that these wills of His would someday clash. But only for a divinely appointed time frame.

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Gen. 6:3

"For He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." Rom. 9:28

So God knows that someday He will bring all of these things against His present will into subjection unto Himself (1 Cor. 15:24-28). So then Calvinists that correctly argue for His sovereignty must first realize that His full will is in flux at the moment in an area that we call time.

God lives outside of time, and He knows that outside of our time all things will fall completely under His will as was His will all along. A day is as a thousand years for Him, and a thousand years as a day. Remember?

Remember also that Jesus asked us to pray:

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Mt. 6:10

The obvious conclusion when reading that verse is that His will is not being done in completeness here on Earth. Why, even Christians many times balk at His will. To deny this fact is folly. How many times have we heard of God speaking to Christian's hearts about serving Him in some capacity and them refusing to do so. Just like Jonas.

But God needed even our sinfulness to show us His supreme love for us, and that love will be enhanced throughout eternity by knowing the depths of His giving of His Son Who also died for us. This is something that the angels look into, but will never know like we do or will(1 Pet. 1:10-12).

So then, who is right? Both the Calvinist and the Arminian depending on what time frame you want to use to look at His sovereignty. The Calvinist is right with the eternal aspect in view. And the Arminian is right in the present time frame.

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Jack, WOW! You almost sound like a Calvinist! No pun intended...I mean it!

I think all of us agree that no one can enter into the mind of God. We have a difficult time knowing our own thoughts. We tend to interpret God through our own intellect which, to borrow a word you used, is "folly."

Jack, you said:

His full will is in flux at the moment in an area that we call time.

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It does seem that way, doesn't it? But I believe it is we who are in flux. The scripture often times deal in anthropomorphisms. One example would be when Isaiah writes, Isaiah 55:9 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. Do we really know how high the heavens are from the earth? Do we know the gap between what God knows and what we know? If we answer honestly we would say, "no." My point? We are the ones in flux. God never changes. When we read the scriptures and think that He is changing His mind, that is exactly what it is....we think He is changing His mind.

Doulous.
I am far closer to being a Calvinist that you know. Not that I am changing my mind though. It's just that the two theologies are not that far apart.

And as I have said before, I would be a Calvinist over an Arminian if an angel of the Lord appeared to me and said that one is exactly right and the other is wrong. And it is based on the knowledge of the eternal security of the saints.

I differ in that I believe that the atonement is not limited, and that any could chose to believe the Gospel with God's grace to give them enough light.

And you are right indeed about Isa. 55. I also answered a deacon from my former church concerning election with Ps. 131:1.

"Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me."

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I thought that was a good post from JackRUS also BUT PLEASE don’t start comparing me to a Calvinists. They are not the only ones to think it vitally important to argue for God’s sovereignty and personally I would put more emphasis on as JackRUS put it that Calvinists, “first realize that His full will is in flux at the moment in an area that we call time.” as being a part of His sovereignty will and not separated from it, maintained in the sense of Trinity. I agree God doesn’t change but He did bless us to be freewill creatures of His unchanging creation; how He does it I don’t know but I think it’s all wrapped up in the truth of His Good nature.

I was looking at 1 Tim 2:3-6 and see it complements this discussion.

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Originally posted by whatever: Hello JackRUS, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS: Well, I am quite sure that it is not in His will that any should...

SIN!

But we still do, don't we?

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According to Acts 4, God determined beforehand the murder of Christ. How does that fit with your statement above?

I differ in that I believe that the atonement is not limited, and that any could chose to believe the Gospel with God's grace to give them enough light.

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What's the difference bewteen "enough light" and "regeneration"? Or to approach it from another angle, why doesn't God give everyone enough light? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure exactly where you are going with your first question. You seem to be arguing for sin being a part in God's plan. I suppose that in a way it is. But sin is always against His will, hence Mt. 6:10 and all of Scripture for that matter.

Nonetheless, God knew that we were not going to be righteous, so He made us righteous (2 Cor. 5:21) in order to give Him the glory (1 Cor. 1:31) and to cement our love for Him. But that's my opinion.

As for your 2nd question, Romans 1 clearly declares that everyone gets some light, but that most people don't want the light (John 3:19-20) because they would rather be comfortable in their sin. So then God darkens them spiritually.

When people respond to the light God gives them more grace to believe.

Let me express my concerns as to why we must not go down this path. Gods will must be ONE, for it is His very nature we are talking about. Now there are greater minds posting on this board then my own. Yet I feel this is to simple to miss. Allow me.....

Has God foreordained everything that comes to pass? Has He decreed that what is, was to have been? Is God now governing the world and everyone and everything in it? If God is governing the world, then is He governing it according to a definite purpose, or aimlessly and at random? If He is governing it according to some purpose, then when was that purpose made? Is God continually changing His purpose and making a new one every day, or was His purpose formed from the beginning? Are God’s actions, like ours, regulated by the change of circumstances, or are they the outcome of His eternal purpose? If God formed a purpose before man was created, then is that purpose going to be executed according to His original designs and is He now working toward that end?

Where does this counsel come from that places the power and order in His soverignance?
What does the Bible say? They declare God is One
"who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).

To say God has two wills is to open the door to many paths of error.

If God does have two wills we can never be certain which will is correct. If this was held then doctrine will be built on one Bible verse which reads in opposition to set doctrine as seen though out the Bible in many other passages. Cults would no longer be cults. And with good reason, for if there is two wills there are two paths to the truth. TWO? No not just two, but many ways. Each person could claim the other “will” as truth.

There are no passages to even hint of two wills. What we have is two passages that we do not know how to place together. This should not be viewed as two ways of looking at it, or two wills of God. Gods way is a path. One path, not many paths. The only thing we can declare when we come to passages we do not know how to fit with supported doctrine, is to claim that it is US that does not understand all things.

Many of us are Calvinist and we as Calvinist rebuke the other side for not taking the passage in its worded meaning. We claim they twist the words only because they reject the passage as printed. It is then when their doctrine would crumble we claim. We say…”Do not place mans logic into Gods Word”. Is this not what we are doing here folks?

We have two passages we do not understand how they fit, so we change God ..to make them fit. This is wrong. Lets face it folks, we do not know it all. As bad as we want to understand it all, we are not going to understand it all.

Lets look in the OT a bit. Think of the time when there was no NT. There were men looking for clues of the coming Messiah. In one place they read He would be born in Bethlehem. In another place they read He would come up out of Egypt. Still in another place they read He would be a Nazarene. To the reader before Christ, one could see 3 views that said something different. Which one was right? If they wanted to have them all fit they would have to change the meaning of the places…or maybe there were three Messiahs. Or..maybe they should take one..and do away with the others.

As we know, there was no need to do any of this. What was unclear then, is very clear now. All three were true. Someday Gods will is to be just as clear to us. Lets just be still..and know that He is God.

Why not place the will of God that we do not understand on the darkside of the earth view I gave before. We only see where there is light to see. On the darkside of the earth there is little or no light, and it is hard to see. Gods will is like this. Gods will is ONE…with two sides. One side is clear..the other side we do not understand.

The big problem I have is that there are occasions where God declares that He doesn't want something to happen and yet it happens. These are things that He could prevent and yet He does not. It is not wrong to wrestle with these things and to try to express them in ways that are faithful to Scripture. Yes, it is possible to go too far but based on what God has revealed about Himself I do not see how saying that God wills one thing and yet allows an opposite thing is wrong.

I'm not sure exactly where you are going with your first question. You seem to be arguing for sin being a part in God's plan. I suppose that in a way it is.

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Sin is part of God's plan. The sin of Lucifer, Adam and all those born in the likeness of Adam...their sin (which is ours) is part of God's plan. Now mind you the plan is not centered solely on the sinner, but that sin would be vanquished in Christ. With sin being vanquished there is no act of men or angels that could thwart the will of God or ascend higher than He. So in the end it is all to God's glory.

Originally posted by JackRUS:I'm not sure exactly where you are going with your first question. You seem to be arguing for sin being a part in God's plan. I suppose that in a way it is. But sin is always against His will, hence Mt. 6:10 and all of Scripture for that matter.

Nonetheless, God knew that we were not going to be righteous, so He made us righteous (2 Cor. 5:21) in order to give Him the glory (1 Cor. 1:31) and to cement our love for Him. But that's my opinion.

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Here's the passage I have in mind:

Acts 4:26-28 - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed' -- for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

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What they were doing was sin, and what they were doing was planned and carried out by God. And yet God is holy and does no sin. I don't know how to put all of that together, but I just thought maybe your statement that "I am quite sure that it is not in His will that any should...SIN!" went too far based on this passage, so I just wondered what you would say.