They are directly involved in slavery, that is immoral. They rushed into action, leaving morality at the door.

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1) Again, you are wrong. Neither the Jedi nor the Republic "rushed" into anything. There was a decade of negotiations that went nowhwere. Then they discover the factory on Geonosis and the transports waiting to take the droids into battle. At that point, they made the most moral choice they could, given the clear and present danger the Sep droid army represented and in the light of the intelligence they had received.

Weapons make a wonderful force-multiplier. Training an even better one. Nevermind the devastating firepower of just a handful of star destroyer-scale capital ships.

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The Republic also has EMP-style weapons. Granted, we don't really see this in the films, but they do appear in the EU.

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It appears in the Clone Wars tv series, which is in fact canon per Lucas himself:

"This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [Clone Wars] and the films," Lucas said in an interview released by SciFiNow - a science-fiction enthusiast magazine based in the UK - during last season.

So, if that was true why is it clear that when Anakin and Kenobi meet Grievious on his ship in EPIII it is clearly the first time they have ever been face to face? Did they just forget all the times they saw him during the series?

Can a clone who has been genetically altered to be compliant really even be expected to make those kinds of decisions? They were created to be soldiers, it's their only purpose. The Jedi should have opposed the creation of any more beings the minute they learned of this army.

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Perhaps in the abstract yes. Given the situation they were in, no they shouldn't've.

You call it narrow focus, I call it complicity in slavery, I find it interesting how many of you take up for the Jedi on this.

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Because the Jedi were right to support the legitimate government vs the usurpations of the true Sep leadership.

And again, despite talk to the contrary, rushing headfirst into war was a mistake even with the ethics questions put aside. They acted foolishly.

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Since they didn't "rush" into anything, this statement is basically useless. They acted correctly given the information they had as opposed to the information you wish they had.

If you want to know what I would do if I was a Jedi in that situation, I would leave the order if the Jedi were to do such things. I would openly oppose the war, the army, and I would support allowing the CIS member worlds to secede.

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And when the armies marched anyways?

There is always more than one way to solve a problem.

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Not in this case.

Secession for those worlds buys the republic time.

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10 years gone by with nothing to show for it except a droid army poised to attack...and you want more words. Even Chamberlin would not have been that obstinate.

Support for war melts away if you placate those worlds.

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And the Trade Federation et al attack anyways. Same effect.

And if the CIS were to turn on those worlds, you can support insurrection, although as I have stated several times their army isn't powerful enough to keep thousands of worlds in check.

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You've stated it many times. You're as wrong now as you were all those other times. They did do just that for 3 years. And Palpatine's fledgling Empire suppressed both sides with an even smaller army.

It takes a lot to suppress a population. The CIS would not be able to threaten the republic and police their own membership.

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See above.

The Jedi are fools, not only did they make an unethical decision, from a strategic and tactical sense they made the worst decision possible. It's their fault that the Republic is transformed into the empire. They acted foolishly.

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Nope. They were Xanatos-ed by the greatest Xanatos Master their galaxy had ever seen.

The rank and file membership of the CIS is supporting war for the goal of secession. That's it, it is cut and dry. Allowed to seceed, they have no motivation to fight. Dooku loses his powerbase.

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No, he loses his cause celebre. His powerbase (the TF/BC/CG/et al cabal and the droid army) remain.

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Big problem with that, in Attack of the Clones we see his meeting with that cabal, and his sales pitch to them to sign his treaty is in large part that he has the backing of these thousands of worlds. You guys just don't get it, because you don't want to. They aren't under the gun, they joined Dooku willingly because they think they are doing the right thing.

All this talk of the membership being held at gunpoint is simply not true

I've issued the challenge before and I'll do it again, show me the scenes that back that theory up. Show me the scenes

It also doesn't happen to be an all or nothing proposition. The Republic does not become defenseless if the Jedi choose to walk away from that army and oppose it's creation and use. But these characters never considered those options, they just started a galactic war to save three people

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No, they responded to a clear and present danger to the legitimate government they were sworn to protect. And their refusal to recuse themselves changes nothing.

Let's examine the Xanatos of the situation:

First chain: Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones -> Palpatine orders the clones into the field regardless and the CW progresses from there, leading to the Rise of the Empire-> Palpatine wins

Second chain: Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones ->Palpatine makes a show of agreeing with them and orders the clones kept out of the fight->Dooku and the Seps (under Palpatine's orders) invade with the droid army and quickly overpower the otherwise all-but unprepared Republic->Palpatine reveals the fact that he in fact was behind it all, uses the droids AND the clones to establish the Empire->Palpatine wins.

Third chain: Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones and denounce the Chancellor->Jedi lose support from the public as Palpatine paints them as either cowardly or treacherous and orders clone army into the field anyways-> CW plays out and Empire rises-> Palpatine wins.

Fourth chain:Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones ->Palpatine orders army into field->Jedi act against Palpatine, citing his actions and decisions->Palpatine declares them traitorous and turns army on them in whole or in part while droid army continues to attack the Republic-> Republic falls either way and Empire Rises-> Palpatine wins.

There are other more complicated twists and turns one could throw into the mix, but they all have the same outcome: Palpatine wins.

Let me try this a different way, if the republic were to grant secession to the CIS, what specific motivation do you believe the bulk of their membership would have to pursue war? What specific reason? I don't mean Dooku, I mean the average CIS member world. Why would they continue to support war once that goal was achieved? I mean specifically.

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It does not matter, because the real power (the cabal and the droid army) remains. And so do the clones.

The "Palpatine wins no matter what" argument is a non-starter as an in-universe justification. Might as well say "Palpatine wins no matter what, because the OT already said so".

"Blinded by the dark side" is not a plausible in-universe reason. It's an excuse . Lucas' original back-story mechanism of 'treachery' on the part of Palpatine was more believable and would have worked just fine, in my opinion.

You make my point for me, three years later they are still fighting a war, and this all powerful galactic wide army could not defeat an army of clones no stronger than 1.2 million at the outset. That war should have been over in a week if the droids were even close to as strong as you guys keep claiming.

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1) The droid army was holding back in many ways. Dooku (under Palpatine's order) was playing to a rough draw. The point was to weaken the Republic in terms of finances and infrastructure, raise Palpatine's standing with the people (a la George Bush 43), and to reduce/distract/weaken the Jedi preparatory to Operation Knightfall.

Tell me how an army of galactic scale cannot defeat an army on the scale of a nation on Earth? Show me how that happens?

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It's called the Prequel Trilogy and The Clone Wars tv series. I suggest you watch both.

Show me where in the movie the CIS is suppressing these trillions of people in the CIS?

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They didn't need to because they still had the support of the CIS public behind them. If/when that support stopped, the CIS would have suffered the same fate Naboo narrowly escaped in 30 BBY and that 100s of Republic words suffered during the Clone Wars.

You make my point for me, three years later they are still fighting a war, and this all powerful galactic wide army could not defeat an army of clones no stronger than 1.2 million at the outset. That war should have been over in a week if the droids were even close to as strong as you guys keep claiming.

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1) The droid army was holding back in many ways. Dooku (under Palpatine's order) was playing to a rough draw. The point was to weaken the Republic in terms of finances and infrastructure, raise Palpatine's standing with the people (a la George Bush 43), and to reduce/distract/weaken the Jedi preparatory to Operation Knightfall.

Tell me how an army of galactic scale cannot defeat an army on the scale of a nation on Earth? Show me how that happens?

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It's called the Prequel Trilogy and The Clone Wars tv series. I suggest you watch both.

Show me where in the movie the CIS is suppressing these trillions of people in the CIS?

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They didn't need to because they still had the support of the CIS public behind them. If/when that support stopped, the CIS would have suffered the same fate Naboo narrowly escaped in 30 BBY and that 100s of Republic words suffered during the Clone Wars.

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Wow, what a copout. You spent the past hour bombing this thread and you won;t even answer questions.

Show me the scenes in the film that backup these ideas, specific scenes. Go on. And I don't care what the TV show says on the subject, it's it's own story with it's own plots and it's own writers. You might as well be talking about BattleStar Galactica

I'll ask it again, how does this all powerful army of galactic scale that you keep describing not put down a clone army on the scale of one Earth nation?

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Asked and answered already.

They could overwhelm Corucsant in literally one battle. They could send trillions of droids out to destroy every clone production facility, they could put an end to this war in days if they had the power you assign to them. Explain this. If you guys want to keep making the case that this army has that kind of power, the floor is yours. Make the case now. Go on.

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We already have. You just don't want to listen.

And I am discussing the plot of the films, I don't care one bit what the EU says on any of it

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1) There is plenty of film-only evidence, as I and others have shown you.

2) Whether you "care" or not, the series IS canon, per George.

I quote again:

"This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [Clone Wars] and the films," Lucas said in an interview released by SciFiNow - a science-fiction enthusiast magazine based in the UK - during last season.

The plot of the movie and the plot of the show are two seperate issues

If you want proof, the show and it's ideas did not even exist at the time these movies were put together. So, obviously these Johnny come lately type of ideas do not influence the story as told to us in the films. As I mentioned earlier, it's obvious Anakin and Kenobi are meeting Grevious for the for the first time in EpIII, did they just forget that they have met him in the Clone Wars? If it's canon, surely they know each other? How can that be? That is one of a thousand examples. They are seperate works of art, and must be judged separately accordingly.

I like the Clone Wars show, I give it no thought when discussing the movies.

Big problem with that, in Attack of the Clones we see his meeting with that cabal, and his sales pitch to them to sign his treaty is in large part that he has the backing of these thousands of worlds. You guys just don't get it, because you don't want to. They aren't under the gun, they joined Dooku willingly because they think they are doing the right thing.

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Those represenatives are not the Sep Senate or the public. They are the factions being invited into the real seat of power, Dooku's cabal.

All this talk of the membership being held at gunpoint is simply not true

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At that point maybe, maybe not. The films are silent on the topic. We DO know, both from TPM and the series how the Cabal operates when it gets its way, and it has very little to do with votes and Senates and a great deal to do with droid armies with lots of weapons.

Big problem with that, in Attack of the Clones we see his meeting with that cabal, and his sales pitch to them to sign his treaty is in large part that he has the backing of these thousands of worlds. You guys just don't get it, because you don't want to. They aren't under the gun, they joined Dooku willingly because they think they are doing the right thing.

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Those represenatives are not the Sep Senate or the public. They are the factions being invited into the real seat of power, Dooku's cabal.

All this talk of the membership being held at gunpoint is simply not true

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At that point maybe, maybe not. The films are silent on the topic. We DO know, both from TPM and the series how the Cabal operates when it gets its way, and it has very little to do with votes and Senates and a great deal to do with droid armies with lots of weapons.

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The films are not silent on the matter, we are seeing exactly how Dooku consolidates his power. And it's aboluteley not what you have been describing. That is the whole point.

The movie is very clear on exactly how and why these things come to pass. Silent on the matter? Hardly, it's just not saying what you would have it say

The "Palpatine wins no matter what" argument is a non-starter as an in-universe justification. Might as well say "Palpatine wins no matter what, because the OT already said so".

"Blinded by the dark side" is not a plausible in-universe reason. It's an excuse . Lucas' original back-story mechanism of 'treachery' on the part of Palpatine was more believable and would have worked just fine, in my opinion.

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I would say that blinding their ability to perceive him for what he truly is, embroiling them in a galactic war that kills them by the 1000s, weakens the remainder both physically and in terms of their individual internal balance with the Force (to the point that some fully fall to the Dark Side, such as Krell and Barris Offee), then having a programmed clone army shoot all but a relative handful of the rest "in the back" qualifies as treachery.

If it was just a matter of using overwhelming military force there would have been no need for pretense, they would have just done it.

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Perhaps, but Palpatine did it this way for a reason. Better to lure the Republic into weakening it's own position for him first. Makes it easier to control the badly damaged, nearly bankrupt, and war-weary survivors.

Essentially, he "frog potted" the galaxy into submission.

("Frog potting" refers to the classic experiment in desensitization where it was shown that while frogs put into a pot of already painfully hot water would immediately hop out, and frogs introduced into a pot of cold water that was rapidly heated would hop out as soon as the water became uncomfortable, frogs put into a pot of cold water and heated gradually [allowing the frogs to acclimate to the new temperature in stages] would remain in the pot until they literally cooked to death.)

It could also be said that Palpatine used the war as a massive distraction to keep the Republic's attention focused on the Seps while he did the real damage internally. (Which would parallel what many say about the Bush43 administration, which Lucas has admitted was a large source of inspiration for him.)

Wow, what a copout. You spent the past hour bombing this thread and you won;t even answer questions.

Show me the scenes in the film that backup these ideas, specific scenes. Go on. And I don't care what the TV show says on the subject, it's it's own story with it's own plots and it's own writers. You might as well be talking about BattleStar Galactica

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The tone of this thread needs to change, now. Stop the baiting. Debate the ethics found in the films, or this will go on ice.