Posted
by
samzenpus
on Thursday May 24, 2012 @09:56AM
from the no-trade-backs dept.

Fluffeh writes "It seems that the U.S. Supreme Court has an itch it just can't scratch. A patent granted to the Ultramercial company covers the concept of allowing users to watch a pre-roll advertisement as an alternative to paying for premium content and the company is demanding fees from the likes of Hulu and YouTube. Another company called WildTangent, however, is challenging Ultramercial's 'invention' as merely an abstract idea not eligible for patent protection. Add to this a recent ruling by the Supreme Court restricting patents — albeit on medical diagnostic techniques — and you get into a bit of a pickle. The Supreme Court is now sending the Ultramercial case back to the lower courts for another round, which doesn't mean that the court disagrees with the original ruling, but rather that it thinks it is a patent case that is relevant to the situation and they want to re-examine it under this new light."

Patents have never been an innovation incentive, hell look at what Alexander Graham Bell did with telecom, his company sat on patents and expanded glacially making sure to profit from a few key technologies in what would become backbone areas, it was only when patents started expiring that telephones started spreading, and even then his legacy is still apparent in monopolies across North America

Imagine if Nikola Tesla had defended the design of the electric motor as viciously as Bell had telecom, the mind boggles...

Patents were never intended to be an incentive for innovation. They're incentive to document and disclose the invention so that after the patent expires everyone gets to benefit from it instead of it remaining a trade secret forever.

Unfortunately they've never done a good job of that either. Most things that are patented are either sufficiently obvious once you see them that no documentation was really necessary (eg, the cotton gin), or for non-obvious things (like a process to manufacture a chemical economically) the patents tend to be sufficiently obfuscated to make them essentially impossible to follow.

Bell was the only one awarded the patent so all those other guys lost out, had there been no patent system there would have been healthy competition between them potentially leading to more innovation in the field as it developed.

You missed Canadian Reginald Aubrey Fessende for the wireless telephone;-)

Who first used the word and the method of continuous waves?
Who was first to transmit voice over radio?
Who devised a detector for continuous waves?
Who first used the method, and the word heterodyne?
Who was first to send two-way wireless telegraphy messages across the Atlantic ocean?
Who was first to send wireless telephony (voice) across the Atlantic Ocean?
Who made the world's first wireless broadcast (voice and music)?

This nonsense is crushing innovation. It's one more in a long line of examples of how we need to reevaluate how we govern ourselves.

Sure it's nonsense, but I appreciate how the Supreme Court moves slowly and thoughtfully compared to the other branches of government. Perhaps they move a bit too slowly some times but the other two move so knee-jerk quickly most of the time that maybe the SC needs to be even slower to balance it out.

I personally think the only reason they're considering getting rid of this patent is, it could hold back corporations from shoving advertisements down your throat, which is something they really want to do. If the only people interested in this were millions of hardworking American citizens, nothing would be done about it.

You can't talk about crushing innovation in the abstract. First, what affect if any does patent protection have on this type of "invention"? Absent a patent, would somebody have done this anyway? You can't crush the inevitable. Second, the question in this context is whether this patent should be entitled to patent protection. Stated another way, is this a patent to an idea or an application of that idea? Is this a special way of allowing users to watch a pre-roll advertisement or is it the idea itsel

thats not how it works.. if he spams here, on a highly google-ranked site then his messages will start to appear high up in search rankings. Then if you search for that product name, you will see messages in the search results where the extract on display consists wholly of "and ${product} did a really fantastic job at ${action}!!!" and there will be pages of it, so people who are ignorant will see that and assume it is legit. Thats why it is important to down-moderate any spam here, because I suppose -1 co

How is the concept of computing something substantially different from an algorithm that computes something? Patents are supposed to be on physical inventions, not abstract ideas. The formal, "When run on a computer," clause does not mean a math^H^H^H^Hsoftware patent is somehow not a patent on an abstract idea.

Patents are supposed to be on physical inventions, not abstract ideas.

35 USC 101 states that "Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title." Processes aren't "physical inventions".

Except that the process clause is meant to cover industrial processes that are not strictly machines, but which are physical inventions nevertheless (at least in the sense that they transform physical material from one form to another).

Except that the process clause is meant to cover industrial processes that are not strictly machines, but which are physical inventions nevertheless (at least in the sense that they transform physical material from one form to another).

Agreed... But that doesn't mean that the "process" is a "physical invention," but rather that it must operate on a machine or perform a transformation of some physical material, no (hence the old CAFC test). At which point, software that operates a controller counts.

Sure, and that was the original logic behind the first software patent. The difference is that today's software patents are not on industrial processes, they are on pure mathematics, which is not supposed to be patentable.

Sure, and that was the original logic behind the first software patent. The difference is that today's software patents are not on industrial processes, they are on pure mathematics, which is not supposed to be patentable.

But they're not. As noted above, today's software patents "operate on a machine or perform a transformation of some physical material" - such as "operat[ing] a controller". There aren't any "pure mathematics" patents.

Or any of the hundreds of other patents on mathematics? What specific machine or material does a patent on finite field representations cover? Keep in mind that Certicom claims that its patents cover all computer architectures equally.

These are not industrial processes, these are not specific machines, these are patents on pure math with a formal statement about running the software on some computer.

That's a link to wiki and a blog. Neither of those are patents. Is there a specific patent number you're referring to?

These are not industrial processes, these are not specific machines, these are patents on pure math with a formal statement about running the software on some computer.

So, in other words, they're not patents on pure math?
It would be easier to discuss this if you'd provide a specific patent number so that we can discuss a set of claims, rather than a wiki page or blog post about someone's interpretation of some "hundreds of other patents" that are not in front of us. I'm happy to discuss any patent number you name.

Can you even see what machine this patent refers to? The closest thing to that is in claim 122,

a data communication system

Which may not even refer to a machine, since we can communicate by shouting at each other across a room, by writing numbers of sheets of paper, etc. This is not even a formal reference to using a computer; it is just a vague reference to the concept of communicating electronically. Otherwise, these claims all cover pure math.

Claims must be read in light of the specification as it would be understood by one of ordinary skill in the art. The "broadest possible reading" of a term applies during prosecution, but in litigation, the claims must be interpreted more narrowly based on the spec. In this case, the claims recite correspondents, which the spec describes as including a random number generator and performing computing functions. While it's possible to read these as humans, I think a more reasonable reading is that they're c

If the only input is data and the only output is data (rather than running a motor controller or servo or something) then I would argue that we're talking about an algorithm, i.e. pure math.

The fact that it runs on a computer is beside the point, you could in theory do it with pen and paper or in your head.

On the contrary, if the patent claims require a computing device, then you cannot, by definition, do it in your head. You could perform the same algorithm, but you wouldn't infringe the patent - hence the patent isn't claiming the algorithm.

While it's possible to read these as humans, I think a more reasonable reading is that they're computers.

I do not agree with that; that is a common use case, but patents do not apply only to common use cases.

That one's even easier. Claim 1 recites a cryptosystem, which is illustrated in FIG. 2 including an ALU and RAM.

Fair enough, although this is still very vague and non-specific. It is basically saying that the patent covers any electronic computer that runs the algorithm -- which includes computers that have not even been invented yet. If you had no familiarity with computers, and I asked you to describe the machine that this patent covers, I doubt that you would be able to give an answer that even remotely res

This seems pretty "pure mathematics" to me. I suppose the phosphors of a monitor count as a physical material, but I think that's stretching it a bit.

Claim 1: "1. A 3-D graphics method performed by a computer for real-time rendering of shadows in 3-D scenes to be displayed on a computer monitor..."

The claim explicitly requires a computer and a monitor. That's not pure mathematics. The pure mathematical algorithm is outside of the claims - if you did it in your head, by definition, you could not possibly infringe the patent.

How do you explain MPEG-LA and H.26x then? that is ALL using math for compression or decompression of a file, yet they've managed to get over 2000+ patents filed on various parts of H.26x. if they were for how a chip can do these calcs efficiently then i'd agree, but as it is no matter how you compress or decompress a video you will most likely step in the H.26x minefield.

They're video compression algorithms. I thought we were talking about patents.

that is ALL using math for compression or decompression of a file, yet they've managed to get over 2000+ patents filed on various parts of H.26x. if they were for how a chip can do these calcs efficiently then i'd agree, but as it is no matter how you compress or decompress a video you will most likely step in the H.26x minefield.

So you agree that the base ideas would be patentable if they were embodied in a hardware chip? Then how is that different from embodied in software and executed by a hardware chip?

If it subverts the original meaning that is grounds for the supreme court to throw it out. The second issue is math should not be patentable because they are laws of nature and not manmade. Computer algorithms are just this and a process is simply math. Laws of nature have been ruled not to be patentable as well in the past and I think your text from the America Invents act are clearly unconstitutional but I am no lawyer.

What I want to know is if laws of nature as unpatentable are a European idea or American or both? The grandparent is correct in that original patents were for physical inventions with a prototype already functional only. Not for an idea. Otherwise everyone would be quite wealthy or broke as nothing could be made without infringing on everyone else.

"New" as in from 1790. Specifically, the 1790 Patent Act [ipmall.info] - passed just 3 years after the Constitution was drafted - included as patentable subject matter "any useful art, manufacture, engine, machine, or device, or any improvement therein." The term "useful art," as it was known at the time, meant an industrial process.

If it subverts the original meaning that is grounds for the supreme court to throw it out.

First, as noted above, the same people who wrote the Constitution wrote the Patent Act, passing it just a couple years later. Thomas Jefferson was the first Patent Examiner. It's a pretty tough argument to say that the founders didn't understand what the founders intended.

Second, the patent clause of the Constitution is one of the explicitly enumerated powers of Congress, and Congress has the power to pass any laws "necessary and proper" to performing those powers. Which means that the Supreme Court is supremely deferential when it comes to whether Congress has the power to pass a law regarding one of those enumerated powers. Basically, if Congress says that "useful arts" includes processes, the Supreme Court isn't going to reverse that by arguing they lack the power to define "useful arts".

Third, as noted, the Constitution doesn't include "physical inventions" as a limitation. Accordingly, it's a misreading to say that by allowing patenting of processes, they are "subverting the original meaning". I think you're getting confused with an entirely different clause - the "to promote the progress of [the] useful arts". Whether patenting processes subverts that is an entirely different question, which as of yet, you've not raised.

The second issue is math should not be patentable because they are laws of nature and not manmade. Computer algorithms are just this and a process is simply math.

You're right, and that's why computer algorithms are not patentable by themselves. Instead, they must be explicitly tied to a machine or performed by a machine, because machines are not laws of nature, nor are they man-made.

Laws of nature have been ruled not to be patentable as well in the past and I think your text from the America Invents act are clearly unconstitutional but I am no lawyer.

I have no idea what part of the AIA you're referring to. It says nothing about patenting laws of nature. Would you care to quote a passage?

What I want to know is if laws of nature as unpatentable are a European idea or American or both?

Both. However, "software patents" are patentable in both Europe and America, provided they are tied to a physical machine. It is software per se that is unpatentable.

The grandparent is correct in that original patents were for physical inventions with a prototype already functional only. Not for an idea.

As noted above, the grandparent is provably wrong, based on the Constitution and the original Patent Act of 1790. Additionally, the requirement of a prototype went away in 1880.

Otherwise everyone would be quite wealthy or broke as nothing could be made without infringing on everyone else.

Laws of nature are math. Plain and simple and should not be patentable PERIOD. Infact a process is math where you do this, then, do that. It doesn't matter where its performed. Just because a computer does it doesn't make it patentable and no longer laws of nature or math. If laws of nature are ruled unpatentable then most of these patents need to be thrown out! A process can not be patentable therefore they need to be thrown out as well.

The arts are refering to blue prints for industrial designs. Not expre

Laws of nature are math. Plain and simple and should not be patentable PERIOD.

And they aren't. I already said this, you don't need to keep repeating it as if you've said something new.

Infact a process is math where you do this, then, do that. It doesn't matter where its performed. Just because a computer does it doesn't make it patentable and no longer laws of nature or math. If laws of nature are ruled unpatentable then most of these patents need to be thrown out! A process can not be patentable therefore they need to be thrown out as well.

But processes are explicitly patentable under 35 USC 101, provided they're not merely the mathematical steps.

The arts are refering to blue prints for industrial designs. Not expressions as is the common definition of arts today.

No, they aren't. As it was used in 1787, the term "useful arts" referred to any industrial process, including smelting, forging, shaping, etc. Interestingly, the term "science" referred to expressions of knowledge. Amazing how language changes.

But "blueprints"? No.

I can make a patent for anything and just say "Used in a tablet/computer.." otherwise and get away with patenting math or any other law of nature.

"...detecting contact with the touch-sensitive display while the device is in a user-interface lock state; moving an unlock image along a predefined displayed path on the touch-sensitive display in accordance with the contact, wherein the unlock image is a

"...detecting contact with the touch-sensitive display while the device is in a user-interface lock state; moving an unlock image along a predefined displayed path on the touch-sensitive display in accordance with the contact, wherein the unlock image is a graphical, interactive user-interface object with which a user interacts in order to unlock the device; transitioning the device to a user-interface unlock state if the detected contact corresponds to a predefined gesture; and maintaining the device in the user-interface lock state if the detected contact does not correspond to the predefined gesture."

Basically you touch an unlock image and slide it along the path shown on the screen to unlock. Yes, there is a physical device involved, but this is fundamentally a concept rather than an implementation of the concept.

But, as you note, there's a physical device involved. It's not just a mathematical algorithm. You could not possibly infringe that claim with a pad of paper and a pen or by doing math in your own head.

The second issue is math should not be patentable because they are laws of nature and not manmade. Computer algorithms are just this and a process is simply math.

You're right, and that's why computer algorithms are not patentable by themselves. Instead, they must be explicitly tied to a machine or performed by a machine, because machines are not laws of nature, nor are they man-made.

Ah, I see you are one of those religious fundamentalists. Machines are far too complex to be man made! All those intricacies and complexities. They must be made by God. Amen brother!

On the 1st day God created computers. On the 0th day he rested. Then there was a recursive loop, a segfault and a buffer overflow, and that explains how things came to be. Hallelujah!

The term "useful art," as it was known at the time, meant an industrial process.

Exactly—and an industrial process is a specific way of making a physical product. This is completely separate from the abstract processes under discussion, which are aspects of mathematics—natural laws—waiting to be discovered, not applications of those laws invented to further the production of a specific material good, which is the essence of a "useful art".

The critical term, of course, isn't "useful arts" (which only occurs in the justification, not the actual power) but "Inventors". Algorithms aren't invented. Like other natural laws, they're discovered. Invention requires the application of the laws thus discovered toward a specific, concrete end.

The second issue is math should not be patentable because they are laws of nature and not manmade. Computer algorithms are just this and a process is simply math.

You're right, and that's why computer algorithms are not patentable by themselves. Instead, they must be explicitly tied to a machine or performed by a machine, because machines are not laws of nature, nor are they man-made.

While this is a very common argument, making it requires one to be (deliberately?) obtuse. A patent on an algorithm[1] running on a general-purpose computer is indistinguishable from a patent on the algorithm itself. The algorithm, as a universal natural law, is not eligible. The general-purpose computer was not invented by the applicant, and the use of one to evaluate any algorithm is obvious, as this is the purpose and nature of any general-purpose computer. What is left to patent?

If Google is to be believed, we'll have wearable heads-up displays by the end of the year. I mean, come on - that's freakin' science fiction right there.

Only if they can navigate the patent minefield, and manage to get it to market without anyone blocking it with an injunction. The way the mobile market is looking right now (approaching a complete all-vs.-all digraph of lawsuits), that's not looking very likely.

Moreover, it's not like the primary roadblock preventing use from having these sorts of wearable HUDs was ever in the software to begin with. It's just taken this long to develop the miniaturized logic circuits, displays, and batteries necessary to make it practical. Are you really trying to argue that no one would develop the (rather trivial) algorithms needed for HUDs without software patents?

[1] There are no "computer" algorithms, just universal mathematical algorithms which computers happen to be able to evaluate.

That is the point. I can't patent respiration as an example because it is a nature and not man-made. Can I then patent respiration while typing on a laptop computer. The patent trolls say yes!

I say BS. It is still nature and is abstract and not applicable if you did not invent the computer. Its just another way to patent something when used X. Displaying an AD is abstract and not a process of manufacturing and has been done before. Just not on a computer screen.

Exactly—and an industrial process is a specific way of making a physical product. This is completely separate from the abstract processes under discussion, which are aspects of mathematics—natural laws—waiting to be discovered, not applications of those laws invented to further the production of a specific material good, which is the essence of a "useful art".

Yes, and? The original discussion was whether "process" is not included in the patent act as a patent-eligible category. As you agree, it is. And I agree, abstract processes - a subset of "processes" - are not patentable.

The critical term, of course, isn't "useful arts" (which only occurs in the justification, not the actual power) but "Inventors". Algorithms aren't invented. Like other natural laws, they're discovered. Invention requires the application of the laws thus discovered toward a specific, concrete end.

Agreed. Fortunately, patents claim applications of those laws, and not the laws themselves.

While this is a very common argument, making it requires one to be (deliberately?) obtuse. A patent on an algorithm[1] running on a general-purpose computer is indistinguishable from a patent on the algorithm itself.

Says you. A patent on a computer running an algorithm explicitly does not cover performing the algorithm in your head, on a pad of paper, inherently when you do some other function, etc. It is quite d

A patent on a computer running an algorithm explicitly does not cover performing the algorithm in your head, on a pad of paper, inherently when you do some other function, etc. It is quite distinguishable.

What is the significant difference between evaluating an algorithm in your head, and doing the same thing with computer assistance, which would justify a patent? What is the novel, non-obvious change in the state of the art which such a patent would document? We agree that it's not the algorithm, or the computer; what's left?

More specifically, what is it about "evaluate this algorithm with a computer" which would make it patentable, which would not also apply to "evaluate this algorithm with pencil and pape

So I can patent something on a device I have no rights too? The patent law and constitutional clause states for the inventor.

I'm not sure what this is in reference to. Can you quote the previous post or provide more details?

I can't patent an abstract idea because it is in a car that I performed respiration, or it was a LCD laptop screen that displayed the Ad and not a TV. Yet the patent trolls are saying just this.

Do you have a citation of a patent with "[known process for displaying an add on a television] on an LCD laptop display"? Remember, you have to find that in the claims, not just the abstract.

Useful Arts have to do with the manufacture process.

Or other industrial process, but yes.

Not an abstract idea just on another device made from natural laws not invented by applicant. Otherwise I could patent every idea known to man such as typing on a keyboard with a machine with more than 4 gigs of ram. Then patent again with a machine with more than 8 gigs of ram etc.

You're confusing two different statutes: 35 USC 101 is about patent-eligible subject matter. A known or obvious process is directed to patent-eligible subject matter, but is known or ob

Wow, where should I begin; false dilemma, straw man, coincidental correlation? False dilemma: Just because there are significant innovations now, does not mean that there would not be more significant innovations without software patents. Straw man: Stifling innovation is not the same as making "it so unprofitable to innovate that no one does it", which is the point you go on to attack. Coincidental correlation: Just because we have patents and then innovation does not prove that patents cause innovation.

Considering that innovation predates patents (so there cannot be an exclusive causal effect), where is your evidence that patents further innovation?

(Personally, I believe patents can encourage innovation, but I also believe in the proverb "too much of a good thing, is a bad thing.")

We can agree on one thing: your evidence is circumstantial. Societies have undergone many changes since the 1500's. You have only demonstrated that patents do not completely eliminate innovation (you have not yet offered any evidence that patents do not stifle innovation). I find it curious that the rise in innovation coincides with the Enlightenment, which ushered in many changes to society, in addition to patents. It begs the question, given all the other changes, would innovation have happened at the same rate without patent law? It is, of course, impossible to answer. My gut feeling here is the same as you, but I feel your arguments go beyond the evidence itself.

As for modern software, are you seriously arguing that software patents are the reason (or even an important factor) for the increase in software innovation over the last 40 years? I suspect that a much stronger case could be made for advances in hardware and the diffusion of software knowledge outside of the patent system. I think a stronger case could even be made that the relative dearth of software patents prior to the 1990's, made the current growth possible.

The greater concern is not that innovation would have progressed further without patents. The concern is that software patents, which are a very recent phenomena, have reached a critical mass to actually hinder innovation moving forward. Only hindsight will offer any real evidence into the merits of this concern, but anecdotal evidence abounds.

And yet the economy continues and Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. People complain that the patent act stifles innovation or makes it so unprofitable to innovate that no one does it, but they have no evidence for this other than gut feelings, and it's contraindicated by the incredible innovations being made right now. If Google is to be believed, we'll have wearable heads-up displays by the end of the year. I mean, come on - that's freakin' science fiction right there.

Sooo... You admit that the people saying that patents stifle innovation have no evidence for their claims? Then you must also realise WHY we have no evidence, and only gut feelings. How do you like these apples:

And yet the human race and its society prospered, became the wealthiest species on the planet. People say that the having patents spurns innovation or makes it innovation worth investing in, but they have no evidence for this other than gut feelings, and it's contraindicated by the incredible in

trollolololololol you dont want to debate, you want to argue. If you cant understand how the current patent situation can stifle innovation, then you arent paying attention. By their very nature, patents restrict, not enable. So while we get more money driven inventions, that doesnt automatically mean that its the most productive system or that its societal benefit is maximized. Patents are a nicety given by society to encourage innovation. If it becomes apparent that patents stifle more then they benefit,

... says the guy whose initial post consisted solely of: "O please, the chilling effect from the current patent situation is felt by every maker on the planet."

If you'd like to come back and actually debate by stating a conclusion supported logical arguments from your evidence-supported premises, then please do. If you'd like to shoot off single-line snipe attacks, then why not just post as an anonymous coward like all other trolls?

If you cant understand how the current patent situation can stifle innovation, then you arent paying attention.

Conclusory statement. Not an argument.

By their very nature, patents restrict, not enable.

Irrelevant, no one had raised an argument that patents "enable" things.

So while we get more money driven inventions, that doesnt automatically mean that its the most productive system or that its societal benefit is maximized.

True, but likewise irrelevant, and fails to support your original argument of a chilling effect. Just because we don't know that the system is not the best system doesn't mean it therefore is the worst system.

Patents are a nicety given by society to encourage innovation. If it becomes apparent that patents stifle more then they benefit, then the entire concept needs to be revisited. Patents are for SOCIETAL benefit, with a side dish of offering the inventor a nice little limited monopoly to give him a 'attaboy'.

Agreed. Now, I'm simply asking for your evidence that patents stifle more than they benefit. This is the original evidence I asked for, to which you demurred and instead said "but everyone knows it exists". If you can't support your conclusion with facts, then, while it may be true, you'll never convince a reasonable person.

Agreed. Now, I'm simply asking for your evidence that patents stifle more than they benefit. This is the original evidence I asked for, to which you demurred and instead said "but everyone knows it exists". If you can't support your conclusion with facts, then, while it may be true, you'll never convince a reasonable person.

I am a computer programmer. The assumption is we probably infringe on something even if we invented it independently, so we have been explicitly told not to look at any patents related to our field because we could be liable for treble damages if it appears we may have knowingly infringed.

This is chilling because it means I'm not supposed to see what other people are doing, even though we may be able to trivially work around it.

Steam engines for one? look up the history of the steam engine and you'll see there is about a 25 year gap in progress and that was because of the steam engine patents [wikipedia.org]. It even says in the wiki "He adopted the epicyclic sun and planet gear system suggested by an employee William Murdoch, only later reverting, once the patent rights had expired, to the more familiar crank seen on most engines today."

so there is one right there, and an old one at that. I'm sure that others can come up with newer ones but this is the first one that popped to my head that directly matched your challenge.

Every dollar spent vying for monopoly control of an idea, is a dollar not spent creating new ideas. The chilling effect of Intellectual Serfdom laws - felt keenly by those who are "skilled in the art" of creating software, as opposed to the art of litigation - is indeed difficult to quantify. However some the direct financial cost of the patent regime, and its cancerous growth rate in recent years, are documented in this nicely-produced infographic [mbaonline.com].

Every dollar spent vying for monopoly control of an idea, is a dollar not spent creating new ideas. The chilling effect of Intellectual Serfdom laws - felt keenly by those who are "skilled in the art" of creating software, as opposed to the art of litigation - is indeed difficult to quantify. However some the direct financial cost of the patent regime, and its cancerous growth rate in recent years, are documented in this nicely-produced infographic [mbaonline.com].

It's true, patent licensing and litigation is expensive. You know what's also expensive - product liability. Or medical malpractice. In fact, any time someone loses a lawsuit, it's expensive... and that money could be spent creating new ideas instead. Clearly, what we need to do is abolish the entire court system, right?

It's true, patent licensing and litigation is expensive. You know what's also expensive - product liability. Or medical malpractice. In fact, any time someone loses a lawsuit, it's expensive... and that money could be spent creating new ideas instead. Clearly, what we need to do is abolish the entire court system, right?

Just as you say, the legal system is expensive overhead. Money spent on lawyers is obviously no longer available for more productive uses.

Few people, however, would agree with your straw man solution of abolishing the entire court system. Most folks who are opposed to idea monopolies advocate fundamental reform of the legal system. The solution is fewer & less invasive laws, not anarchy.

Certainly the U.S. Constitution itself doesn't say "physical inventions": "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

The 1790 Patent Act says: "any useful art, manufacture, engine, machine, or device, or any improvement thereon not before known or used".

In 1793, it was amended to say: "any new and useful art, machine, manufacture o

The real problem lies in what's getting patented in the software space.

IF you accept that much of the software space is a process description (I have a few issues with this...), then the bulk of the stuff out there is NOT novel. In many cases, you just call it being implemented in software, on the internet, on a smart phone and it's magically novel enough to merit a patent.

Am I the ONLY one here who thinks "My CleanPC" is just the most perfect target EVAR for every Anon and troll here? I mean how delicious and moist would be the irony of MyCleanPC getting trashed with the whole page replaced by Goatse or animated GIFs of dogs taking a shit? it would be so damned funny! C'mon Anon guys, this bozo is practically bitch slapping you with his balls, get to smashing!

As for TFA the simple fact that they are letting them patent math, aka software, is simply crazy in and of itself.

How is the concept of computing something substantially different from an algorithm that computes something? Patents are supposed to be on physical inventions, not abstract ideas. The formal, "When run on a computer," clause does not mean a math^H^H^H^Hsoftware patent is somehow not a patent on an abstract idea.

The concept is different from an algorithm when your patent is on the end result and not the process. That's the problem; there is no way to work at a different solution because the patent covers EVERY solution. What patent abusers really want to patent is the idea -- an auction, meeting scheduling, one-click ordering, etc. (on the INTERNET!, to boot) - but those aren't allowed. So they describe what are obvious (to anyone learned in the art of software design) steps to perform their idea. This is where I s

Someone already has won [thenextweb.com] a patent [uspto.gov] on the concept of online auctions. All you have to do is take anything people do anyway, add "but do it online!" and you have your new patent. It's pretty awful.

It is simple, all empires must fall. looking at history i believe there is a pattern there that simply can't be altered, which is first grow and innovate, then the ultra rich use their power to consolidate, then they try to stifle and crush those that could compete, which thanks to the stagnation allows others in other places to rise and the empire falls.

Look at how the USA got to where it is, by "stealing" the ideas of Europe which had become buried under patents, innovating, and coming with new and fresh ideas and ways of doing things. And now the east is doing the same exact thing to us because our rich have consolidated as much as they can and now are using patents and copyrights to lock up as much for themselves. Again with this comes stagnation until it finally all just falls to crap. Hell we went from a manufacturing powerhouse to "lawsuit land" in less than 50 years.

It seems we are forever doomed to repeat history, because the rich and powerful simply don't see we ALL stand on the shoulders of giants, that is how new ways of doing are born. No idea is truly just born of the ether, all are influenced by those around them and their betters in their field. You mark my words, what you will see now is ever deeper stagnation as more and more toll booths and roadblocks are put up by those that wish to own a market and would rather crush an enemy than compete while the east will learn from our ideas and make them better.

Look at the Chinese gov owned loongson chip company, they are mixing hardware x86 emulation into a MIPS chip, that is new and different but of course since that's all patented and copyrighted up the ass here you could never do that on American soil. Now imagine say doing that with ARM, having a specialized emulation chip that would allow some X86 to run while turning itself off when X86 was not required. or hell build some more simplistic X86 chips like Atom and bobcat that could be switched on and off on the fly with a quad ARM and a decent GPU...all on one die and able to communicate VERY fast with each other because they were all part of the same silicon. wouldn't that be awesome? Can't build that here though. in the future i bet you'll hear that more and more, "couldn't build THAT in the USA!" and that is why we will lose to the east. the IP laws here encourage not innovation but stagnation.

Eliminating software patents completely then re-instating any provisions that are still required after some thought would more quickly get to a working solution. Taking a small step towards a goal that you are very far from is not much on an improvement, and I think most people (who are not lawyers) know that the goal is much closer to "no software patents" than it is to "you can patent the idea for any software".

More like every DVD player that's been manufactured(1995 onward). It's the programming for user operation prohibition flag [wikipedia.org], inside the player, (rom/pc software), that prevents the skipping of the FBI warning/commercial previews prior to viewing the content.

Isn't the concept of an advertisement running before you see content as old as radio and TV? Didn't I have to watch Timex commercials to see the TV shows they sponsored?

I think this is just another example of "Same old stuff, but now on the Interwebs!"

Unless there is an actual physical product. patents are inappropriate. Copyright a presentation of an idea, but patenting a thought is a path to policing thought... and wasting time having the courts arbitrate such.

That's horse manure. Patents have always covered non-physical inventions, such as improved chemical processes. In fact the very first US Patent issued was a improved process for the manufacture of potash. Which comes from horse manure.

What has to be gotten rid of is software and business process patents. That's what is gumming up the works.

There is a product there -chemicals or potash. You improved a method for creating a physical thing, not expressed an idea on how to put a thought in someone's head. An expression of an idea can be copyrighted - a process that leads to a product can be patented.

I could check my email in another tab for fifteen or thirty seconds while the advertising plays. Maybe I should patent this - "A Method for Avoiding Advertisements Placed at the Start of Internet Videos"

The USPTO is the victim here. If it doesn't approve a patent it goes into appeal until it does. So they are left with approve a patent, and clog up the legal system and themselves, or reject a patent and clog up the legal system and themselves. The system needs an overhaul.

That's easy to solve, at least: Use the number of appeals as an exponent of a base cost to file the appeal. Say the first appeal costs $100. The second appeal would cost $1,000, third would be $10,000, fourth would be $100,000 and so on.

Make the employees responsible along with every manager above them. They should have to pay the costs. Bankrupt them, I don't care.

We need some new rules stating that a person can't hide behind "I was told to". If it's found to be immoral/unethical, then the person doing it should be held responsible. If said person can point a finger at a superior, then the superior takes more of the fault, but not all of it.

We need some new rules stating that a person can't hide behind "I was told to". If it's found to be immoral/unethical, then the person doing it should be held responsible. If said person can point a finger at a superior, then the superior takes more of the fault, but not all of it.

I thought the "I was following orders" defence got trashed in the Nuremburg Trials.

I never thought I'd agree with WildTangent on something. They have been the bane of freelance PC support techs for a long time and I wish they would just shrivel up and die. But I guess self-interest and politics can make strange bedfellows.

This is a fairly common procedural follow-up to a Supreme Court ruling that might have implications for other cases. The situation is roughly like this:

1. Cases A, B, and C, on related but not identical subjects, file for Supreme Court review of a lower-court decision.

2. The Supreme Court hears A, and issues a significant new ruling. This ruling might have implications for B and C, but they weren't considered by the Court, because the Court only heard A.

3. Now the question is, what should the Supreme Court do with B and C, whose appeals are still pending? They could accept the cases for hearing and decide them, too. If they were on exactly the same issue as A, the Court could've consolidated A/B/C and issued one ruling. But in the more common case where they have potential but not 100% overlap, the Supreme Court doesn't usually want to hear all three cases. Instead they pick a representative one, in this case A, and issue a ruling. But if A overlaps with B/C, it could lead to an injustice if they just reject the B/C appeals.

4. There is basically a new question: in light of the Supreme Court's recent decision in A, are the lower-court decisions in B and C still correct, or should they be modified?

5. The principle is that the lower courts are supposed to look at such questions first, so the Supreme Court orders that lower courts reconsider cases B and C in light of the recent opinion in A. It's up to the lower courts then to look into whether their original decisions should now be modified. Then once they issue a new ruling, this can be appealed to the Supreme Court again.

Why the fuck would MS integrate Adobe's competitor to their own Silverlight platform into their own OS?

Because almost every radio station and TV stream uses Flash. To not have Flash on a computer severely cripples its web browsing. If Windows stopped supporting Flash, you'd see a hell of a lot of people either buying a Mac or installing Linux. In short, it would cost them tons in sales.