On 13/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/11/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:>>Who's going to all the Camps brothers rebolting?>>>>At least they'll be easy to get out, assuming that there's some still>>in.>>I think most, if not all of them, have been replaced in the Grampians.>And yes they were shit.
The arÍte right of Debutante DS at Rosea?

On 13/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>>The arÍte right of Debutante DS at Rosea?>>Those bolts should just be chopped and not replaced. :-)
That's another discussion...
I'll have to sit down and put together some stuff for you on Rosea. Not sure where it sits in a sort-of Sports guide but happy to help.

On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>On 13/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>>>The arÍte right of Debutante DS at Rosea?>>>>Those bolts should just be chopped and not replaced. :-)>That's another discussion...>I'll have to sit down and put together some stuff for you on Rosea. Not>sure where it sits in a sort-of Sports guide but happy to help.

On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>The whole principle behind this type of bolt>is crap to begin with. They should really be called a circular piton ->because that's what they are.

Even pitons have purpose designed taper for an interference fit.

>They are not fit for purpose, especially when the purpose in this case is to hold a large fall on an overhung wall.

Most carrots have worked OK in the past, but then again most have not been subjected to the specific loading you put on this one?

>If it fails with me hand over handing up the rope it has no hope of holding>a real lead fall. This is modern climbing, where people fall off - a lot.>It's not hypothetical slab climbing where no one ever falls off.>
Good point.

>>Given the ground bolt doesn't appear to have much taper, then the interference-fit>>would have been minimal.>>Try explaining that to an engineer. And then explain to them that you>put your entire life onto that "interference-fit" principle.

Most climbers who have ever clipped a carrot bolt, have done exactly that.>>They are junk. I don't wish to expose myself or my friends to them anymore.

Fair enough.
I am not denying your experience, and I certainly have no specific knowledge of the bolt in question, other than what you have supplied; ... & I was simply questioning your rationale of seemingly dissing all carrots from your one relatively unique experience.

I know you disagree and I accept that; however your posted logic comes acoss to me as similar to a completely different experience I once had, where I had my car specifically serviced for new brake linings to be fitted. Unbeknown to me, it turns out the job was given to an inexperienced apprentice who made a mistake, with the result that half way home and travelling at posted speed limit, one of my wheels fell off! Upon checking further I noted other wheels not as they should be.
I was not happy, but did not blame the car, or the brake lining manufacturer...

On 13/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>I know you disagree and I accept that; however your posted logic comes>acoss to me as similar to a completely different experience I once had,>where I had my car specifically serviced for new brake linings to be fitted.>Unbeknown to me, it turns out the job was given to an inexperienced apprentice>who made a mistake, with the result that half way home and travelling at>posted speed limit, one of my wheels fell off! Upon checking further I>noted other wheels not as they should be.>I was not happy, but did not blame the car, or the brake lining manufacturer...

Actually M9 this bolt was placed by one of the true craftsmen of Australian climbing, a person who prides himself, and rightly so, on the quality of his work. If one of his bolts on one of his favourite cliffs just falls out then what is safe?

On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>Actually M9 this bolt was placed by one of the true craftsmen of Australian climbing, a person who prides himself, and rightly so, on the quality of his work. >If one of his bolts on one of his favourite cliffs just falls out then what is safe?

Trad gear combined with a well developed skill set in using same and knowing the limitations of it?
~> This blerrie sport climbing has hairs on it after all! I might need to take it up for the challenge of the danger involved...
;-)

On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>Actually M9 this bolt was placed by one of the true craftsmen of Australian>climbing, a person who prides himself, and rightly so, on the quality of>his work. If one of his bolts on one of his favourite cliffs just falls>out then what is safe?

That is exactly my thoughts Kieran. Well put. If he can't get it right no one can.

On 14/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>>Actually M9 this bolt was placed by one of the true craftsmen of Australian>>climbing, a person who prides himself, and rightly so, on the quality>of>>his work. If one of his bolts on one of his favourite cliffs just falls>>out then what is safe?>>That is exactly my thoughts Kieran. Well put. If he can't get it right>no one can.

On 14/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>>Actually M9 this bolt was placed by one of the true craftsmen of Australian>>climbing, a person who prides himself, and rightly so, on the quality>of>>his work. If one of his bolts on one of his favourite cliffs just falls>>out then what is safe?>>That is exactly my thoughts Kieran. Well put. If he can't get it right>no one can.

There is no doubt HB is an amazing climber with an incredibly good eye for sweet lines... however I've heard from more that one source that 'some' of his bolting efforts are not quite so amazing

I think the biggest differences in opinion in this thread arise from differing expectations.

It seems that Neil expected that all carrot bolts were extremely reliable (or can be visually inspected). His faith has been shattered and that is extremely confronting and scary.

Others with less lofty expectations of the reliability of a bash in carrot, especially under outward load are not completely surprised by the failure. Thus have not experience the same faith shattering experience as Neil. (Personally I have always been quite cautious to avoid outward load even if resting on a carrot bolt.)

As for the future of bash in carrot bolts? Well a glue in is far far better if done properly. But those decisions are better left to those doing the bolting. Which is not me.

On 14/11/2013 patto wrote:>I think the biggest differences in opinion in this thread arise from differing>expectations.>>It seems that Neil expected that all carrot bolts were extremely reliable>(or can be visually inspected). His faith has been shattered and that>is extremely confronting and scary.>>Others with less lofty expectations of the reliability of a bash in carrot,>especially under outward load are not completely surprised by the failure.> Thus have not experience the same faith shattering experience as Neil.> (Personally I have always been quite cautious to avoid outward load even>if resting on a carrot bolt.)>>As for the future of bash in carrot bolts? Well a glue in is far far>better if done properly. But those decisions are better left to those>doing the bolting. Which is not me.

There are bash ins @ muline on 60 degree walls (path of yin 'grade 30'). How the hell do you avoid an outwards force on that?

On 14/11/2013 patto wrote:>It seems that Neil expected that all carrot bolts were extremely reliable>(or can be visually inspected). His faith has been shattered and that>is extremely confronting and scary.

As someone who has replaced hundred of carrots I can certainly say your statement is far from the truth! I am fully aware that carrots can be bad and that the physics holding them in isn't great. I've pulled out many with little effort.

What shattered my faith is that a bolt that had held a large fall from me in the past would then fail so quickly from a small load in the future. This bolt would have held other falls in the past most likely, or at least held considerable outwards force from seconds falling off. Why it just decided to part ways with the cliff this time is a mystery - and one of the problems of carrots.

For an expansion to fail like this would require the nut to fall off the head (obviously loose) or the rock to be so chossy that the expansion cone is not big enough (obviously loose again). Glue-ins are the same. When they begin to fail over time the glue begins to break up and the bolt starts to loosen. Years later, and after many falls this wobble gets to be really wobbly. Even then it still takes a lot of force and engineering to extract it! The bolt will come out bit by bit over time - not fail instantly.

> (Personally I have always been quite cautious to avoid outward load even>if resting on a carrot bolt.)

As Kent said, these bolts are installed on an overhung wall. Take a look at the first photo on page 1.

>There are bash ins @ muline on 60 degree walls (path of yin 'grade 30'). How the hell do you avoid an outwards force on that?

Now that's really scary! I had no idea, would have just assumed they were glued in. I would never knowingly trust my life to a bash in on anything beyond vertical. It would be good to have a list, or some sort of warning on the crag especially for any overhanging sport climbs.

On older slab and mixed routes I can understand, but when you rock up to a sport crag like that you tend to assume its glued in or expansion.

Hmm,
Whole principle crap, not fit for purpose?? Are you guys serious?? Sure the engineers are laughing, look up interference, it's a pretty fundamental engineering principle that has worked for a bloody long time . . .

To me the fact that it appears to be stainless and was used in what I figure is bomber hard rock suggests problems from the start in terms of achieving best results . . .

And the argument that stuff should be revolted because people would otherwise assume its glued is sillily self-pepetuatingly silliness, Might just as well start from the fact that any hanger less bolt should be treated as not glued in unless known otherwise. And please don't make the jump to hanger less bolts needing to be replaced by rings . .

And as I have said before I am aware of far more rings needing to be replaced for various reason then I am of carrots . . .