If you disagree, then be specific. Tell me __WHAT__ assertion I made is false, and I will provide you the links to back up my assertion. I've had this debate many, many times with Americans. It always starts with an emotional reaction like yours, then proceeds to disbelief that US law is really that different from the rest of the world, at which point I give direct links to the laws on official US government websites, and then it reverts back to an emotional "you're a traitor, I'm a patriot".

To me, a patriot is one who points out the problems with his government and proposes solutions to make his government better. Just waving a flag, burying your head in the sand and saying "We're the best!", despite all the facts to the contrary, does not, imho, make one a patriot.

I challenge you to be specific, and point to something that I said in my last post that is unsubstantiated. If you disagree with my core premise that the most fundamental test of being "free" is the freedom to leave, tell me how you define freedom, and, if you were staying in a repressive place, what is a more basic freedom than being able to leave. Also, state one thing that China does that you feel makes it "unfree", and I will show you that the US does the same thing, perhaps to different degrees, so you're just drawing subjective lines in the sand. The one non-subjective black & white difference between the US and China, is that the Chinese people are free to leave both the country and the system if they don't like it, and Americans are not.

Remember, this is the _THINKING_ atheist. So use logic and facts--not emotion and faith.

If you disagree, then be specific. Tell me __WHAT__ assertion I made is false, and I will provide you the links to back up my assertion. I've had this debate many, many times with Americans. It always starts with an emotional reaction like yours, then proceeds to disbelief that US law is really that different from the rest of the world, at which point I give direct links to the laws on official US government websites, and then it reverts back to an emotional "you're a traitor, I'm a patriot".

To me, a patriot is one who points out the problems with his government and proposes solutions to make his government better. Just waving a flag, burying your head in the sand and saying "We're the best!", despite all the facts to the contrary, does not, imho, make one a patriot.

I challenge you to be specific, and point to something that I said in my last post that is unsubstantiated. If you disagree with my core premise that the most fundamental test of being "free" is the freedom to leave, tell me how you define freedom, and, if you were staying in a repressive place, what is a more basic freedom than being able to leave. Also, state one thing that China does that you feel makes it "unfree", and I will show you that the US does the same thing, perhaps to different degrees, so you're just drawing subjective lines in the sand. The one non-subjective black & white difference between the US and China, is that the Chinese people are free to leave both the country and the system if they don't like it, and Americans are not.

Remember, this is the _THINKING_ atheist. So use logic and facts--not emotion and faith.

I doubt you even know what libertarian means. Like liberal, and liberty, it comes from the latin word "liber" meaning free, that one is free to live his life without being coerced into doing things against his will with threats of violence and force. If you and I were to debate how to solve a problem, the only time I would strongly object is if you were using force and violence to coerce people. Now, because all creatures on the planet are born with the instinct to use force and violence whenever they see something they don't like, libertarians do have to think differently, and reject that natural instinct, and try to find peaceful, voluntary solutions. This requires digging deeper into issues. Again, this should be a discussion of the facts--not just emotional name calling.

Quote:Second, U.S. citizens are free to leave the U.S.

US citizens are permitted to physically leave the US borders and travel to countries which the US approves of (not, for example, Cuba, without special state permission). However, US citizens are NOT allowed to leave the US system. Talk to any American living abroad and ask them. All Americans are required every year to report back to the government exactly where they live, provide all their banking details, list what transactions they have entered into, what property they have, what income they have earned, etc. And if they fail, the US has thousands of enforcement agents spread all around the world who will pressure local authorities to extradite any American who doesn't comply. This is not even disputed.

That's from a US government web site. It is not hearsay. If you disagree with this assertion, I challenge you to post a credible link that disputes this.

And, here's a question, what if it were not the government doing this, but rather a private citizen? What if you moved into my home, but later decided you wanted to leave and my rules were too oppressive. If I used physical force to block you from leaving, like N. Korea and Cuba do, you would concede that you were not free. But, what if I did it like the US does? I allowed you to physically leave, provided you agreed to, for the rest of your life, report back to me every move you made, everywhere you lived, every transaction you engage in, surrender back to me all your income and any other fruits of your labor so I could decide how much to keep for myself and how much to let you keep to live on. And, I had armed agents watching you so that if you didn't comply, you would be hauled back at gunpoint to my house where you would be physically locked up. With such conditions, would you argue that you were "free to leave" and that I was not holding you captive?

That's a serious question. Also, explain to me why Bobby Fischer was locked up in jail in Japan at the pressure of US agents pushing for his extradition?

Quote:Third, Chinese citizens are not free to leave China. Repair your ignorance, then we can have a useful discussion.

"More liberalized emigration policies enacted in the 1980s facilitated the legal departure of increasing numbers of Chinese... Any student who had the economic resources could apply for permission to study abroad..."

And if you still question that, let's ask @HU.Junyuan. @HU.Junyuan, if you decided China's rules were too oppressive, are you free to leave and move to another country? And if you do, are you required to report back to China everything you do, and does China have enforcement agents abroad who pressure local authorities to extradite you back to China if you fail to comply with Chinese law?

@Chas, I have provided links to external resources proving that your facts are wrong. If you still think otherwise, provide the substantiation. Just because you say that something is so as a matter of faith doesn't make it so. If you were committed to using logic, reason and facts instead of faith and superstition, then it should effect how you see politics as well as religion.

I doubt you even know what libertarian means. Like liberal, and liberty, it comes from the latin word "liber" meaning free, that one is free to live his life without being coerced into doing things against his will with threats of violence and force. If you and I were to debate how to solve a problem, the only time I would strongly object is if you were using force and violence to coerce people. Now, because all creatures on the planet are born with the instinct to use force and violence whenever they see something they don't like, libertarians do have to think differently, and reject that natural instinct, and try to find peaceful, voluntary solutions. This requires digging deeper into issues. Again, this should be a discussion of the facts--not just emotional name calling.

Quote:Second, U.S. citizens are free to leave the U.S.

US citizens are permitted to physically leave the US borders and travel to countries which the US approves of (not, for example, Cuba, without special state permission). However, US citizens are NOT allowed to leave the US system. Talk to any American living abroad and ask them. All Americans are required every year to report back to the government exactly where they live, provide all their banking details, list what transactions they have entered into, what property they have, what income they have earned, etc. And if they fail, the US has thousands of enforcement agents spread all around the world who will pressure local authorities to extradite any American who doesn't comply. This is not even disputed.

That's from a US government web site. It is not hearsay. If you disagree with this assertion, I challenge you to post a credible link that disputes this.

And, here's a question, what if it were not the government doing this, but rather a private citizen? What if you moved into my home, but later decided you wanted to leave and my rules were too oppressive. If I used physical force to block you from leaving, like N. Korea and Cuba do, you would concede that you were not free. But, what if I did it like the US does? I allowed you to physically leave, provided you agreed to, for the rest of your life, report back to me every move you made, everywhere you lived, every transaction you engage in, surrender back to me all your income and any other fruits of your labor so I could decide how much to keep for myself and how much to let you keep to live on. And, I had armed agents watching you so that if you didn't comply, you would be hauled back at gunpoint to my house where you would be physically locked up. With such conditions, would you argue that you were "free to leave" and that I was not holding you captive?

That's a serious question. Also, explain to me why Bobby Fischer was locked up in jail in Japan at the pressure of US agents pushing for his extradition?

Quote:Third, Chinese citizens are not free to leave China. Repair your ignorance, then we can have a useful discussion.

"More liberalized emigration policies enacted in the 1980s facilitated the legal departure of increasing numbers of Chinese... Any student who had the economic resources could apply for permission to study abroad..."

And if you still question that, let's ask @HU.Junyuan. @HU.Junyuan, if you decided China's rules were too oppressive, are you free to leave and move to another country? And if you do, are you required to report back to China everything you do, and does China have enforcement agents abroad who pressure local authorities to extradite you back to China if you fail to comply with Chinese law?

@Chas, I have provided links to external resources proving that your facts are wrong. If you still think otherwise, provide the substantiation. Just because you say that something is so as a matter of faith doesn't make it so. If you were committed to using logic, reason and facts instead of faith and superstition, then it should effect how you see politics as well as religion.

Go live in China, no one in the U.S. will try to stop you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: In China, yes, you have lots of rules, and the government makes you report all your activities and pay taxes on them, and restricts what you can say and do, etc.

Yes.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: But, the US does the same, just to a lesser degree.

A lesser degree of restriction would seem to contradict your thesis.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: The US also censors what we can say (see what happened to Lavabit),

Note 'also'.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: ... it also has a 'great firewall' to block Americans from visiting sites it deems 'unhealthy' (try visiting pokerstars.com from the US).

Note 'also'.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: It also goes after journalists (Wikileaks),

Note 'also'.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: ... and it also locks up whistle-blowers who report state crimes (Manning, Snowden, etc.).

Note 'also'.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: It is drawing a line in the sand to say that the degree China does this is criminal, but the US is not.

Yes. It is drawing a line. Between two points which you, yourself, in the above, explicitly acknowledge as being separated.

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: But in North Korea, Cuba and the US, your obligations to the government are NOT in exchange for voluntarily accepting services from the government.

Citizenship carries with it responsibilities and obligations. Often these are assumed at birth. They must be specifically renounced. What is your point?

(04-09-2013 10:10 PM)frankksj Wrote: Rather, those 3 governments legislate that, if you were born within their borders, the country owns you for life and can restrict where you can go (like not going to Yugoslavia or Cuba), and you are obligated for life to report everything you do and surrender it back to your homeland, which will determine how much it will take and how much it will let you keep.

The two legal foundations for automatic citizenship are jus sanguinis (by blood) and jus soli (by birth). Chinese nationality law proceeds from jus sanguinis. United States nationality law proceeds from both. All citizenship carries with it obligations. What is your point?

Yugoslavia has not existed in a practical sense for 21 years and has not existed in any sense at all for 10 years.

I gave you a direct link to a US government website proving you are wrong. But, you still disagree, not because you have any facts to substantiate your position, but purely as a matter of faith that rejects the facts. How is that any different from, say, a Mormon?

I see from your profile that you are Canadian living in the US. That is because Canada is a free country. They let you leave and live in the US, and as long as you're not living in Canada and using Canadian services, Canada imposes no obligations on you. You do not have to report to Canada where you live, what you do and what you own. You do not have to send Canada copies of your bank statements and credit card statements so they can track what you're doing in the US.

I know from first-hand experience that it does not work the other way around. I have tried to leave the US and live abroad because I strongly disapprove of the constant war mongering and don't want my money being used to slaughter innocent people. I moved to Brazil and loved it. Until US agents notified me that I would face substantial penalties for failing to report all my actions back to the US and, even though I hadn't set foot on US soil in years, I was forced to turn over all my bank statements and credit cards, and subject to an audit where they demanded to know every aspect of my life. And the penalties for trying to escape were in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (not including taxes, just penalties for failing to report to the US everything I did). And if I resisted, lethal force would have been used to make me comply. And, in the end, I would have had to pay taxes to BOTH Brazil (which is fine since I was living their and using their government's infrastructure) and the US (because I was born in the US and thus 'indebted for life' so the US could use my money to kill people in the middle east). This made it impossible to live in Brazil, and I was forced to return to the US against my will. Thousands and thousands of Americans face the same problem. So much so that foreign countries, like Panama, used to have programs where Americans could buy citizenship and protection from the US. But then the US clamped down on that, most recently in March 2010 with FATCA, where the US threatens to confiscate foreign countries money that passes through the US if those countries do not track all the activities of US citizens in their country and report them back to the US. You don't realize how much better you Canadians have it. If you don't like Canada, you're free to go--no strings attached. Americans are not so lucky.

Note that I made dozens of points, you said it's all garbage. But you have been unable to actually refute any of them. I challenged you to name one thing China does that is not free which the US does not also do, but you weren't able to come up with one. You haven't produced a link proving that Chinese citizens are not free to leave China. You haven't produced a link explaining how a US citizen can escape the US. You ran from my questions about Bobby Fischer, and how you would respond if you lived in my home and I treated you like the US treats its citizens. You claimed that my statements 'lost you', like somehow they were incomprehensible, but can't quote even one sentence that I wrote which is not clear and accurate. Yet you still insist that you're right, even though the facts contradict your position. How is this any different than religion?

I gave you a direct link to a US government website proving you are wrong. But, you still disagree, not because you have any facts to substantiate your position, but purely as a matter of faith that rejects the facts. How is that any different from, say, a Mormon?

I see from your profile that you are Canadian living in the US. That is because Canada is a free country. They let you leave and live in the US, and as long as you're not living in Canada and using Canadian services, Canada imposes no obligations on you. You do not have to report to Canada where you live, what you do and what you own. You do not have to send Canada copies of your bank statements and credit card statements so they can track what you're doing in the US.

I know from first-hand experience that it does not work the other way around. I have tried to leave the US and live abroad because I strongly disapprove of the constant war mongering and don't want my money being used to slaughter innocent people. I moved to Brazil and loved it. Until US agents notified me that I would face substantial penalties for failing to report all my actions back to the US and, even though I hadn't set foot on US soil in years, I was forced to turn over all my bank statements and credit cards, and subject to an audit where they demanded to know every aspect of my life. And the penalties for trying to escape were in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (not including taxes, just penalties for failing to report to the US everything I did). And if I resisted, lethal force would have been used to make me comply. And, in the end, I would have had to pay taxes to BOTH Brazil (which is fine since I was living their and using their government's infrastructure) and the US (because I was born in the US and thus 'indebted for life' so the US could use my money to kill people in the middle east). This made it impossible to live in Brazil, and I was forced to return to the US against my will. Thousands and thousands of Americans face the same problem. So much so that foreign countries, like Panama, used to have programs where Americans could buy citizenship and protection from the US. But then the US clamped down on that, most recently in March 2010 with FATCA, where the US threatens to confiscate foreign countries money that passes through the US if those countries do not track all the activities of US citizens in their country and report them back to the US. You don't realize how much better you Canadians have it. If you don't like Canada, you're free to go--no strings attached. Americans are not so lucky.

Note that I made dozens of points, you said it's all garbage. But you have been unable to actually refute any of them. I challenged you to name one thing China does that is not free which the US does not also do, but you weren't able to come up with one. You haven't produced a link proving that Chinese citizens are not free to leave China. You haven't produced a link explaining how a US citizen can escape the US. You ran from my questions about Bobby Fischer, and how you would respond if you lived in my home and I treated you like the US treats its citizens. You claimed that my statements 'lost you', like somehow they were incomprehensible, but can't quote even one sentence that I wrote which is not clear and accurate. Yet you still insist that you're right, even though the facts contradict your position. How is this any different than religion?

You could have renounced your U.S. citizenship at any time, yet you didn't. Why not?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

Quote:You could have renounced your U.S. citizenship at any time, yet you didn't. Why not?

Wrong. The US does not allow you to renounce your US citizenship unless, like Eduardo Saverin, you already have citizenship in another country. They have laws against being stateless. And the US aggressively goes after other countries that make it easy for Americans to get other citizenship. And, remember, after Eduardo Saverin's defection, Congress is pushing to for new laws to make it even more difficult for people who have other citizenship to renounce their US citizenship, beyond just liquidating your assets and paying an exit tax. And they've been pushing for serious penalties against Americans who have revoked their citizenship, such as a permanent ban on ever re-entering, even if just as a temporary tourist to visit, say, a dying relative in the hospital.

Like I said, there are lots of barriers put in the way to prevent Americans from escaping. In Canada, there are none. You don't need to renounce your citizenship, you can return to Canada anytime you want. You don't have any penalties or exit tax for leaving Canada. You don't have to abide by Canadian laws now that you've left Canada--you can travel or live anywhere in the world without restriction, and you don't have to tell the Canadian government where you're going and what you're doing. Canada respects the various UN treaties on human rights, including the basic human right of freedom of movement (the right to leave your country with no strings attached, and return with no restrictions at any time). And, if Canada violates these basic UN conventions, you can sue in Canadian court. It's totally the opposite this side of the border.

Quote:You could have renounced your U.S. citizenship at any time, yet you didn't. Why not?

Wrong. The US does not allow you to renounce your US citizenship unless, like Eduardo Saverin, you already have citizenship in another country. They have laws against being stateless. And the US aggressively goes after other countries that make it easy for Americans to get other citizenship. And, remember, after Eduardo Saverin's defection, Congress is pushing to for new laws to make it even more difficult for people who have other citizenship to renounce their US citizenship, beyond just liquidating your assets and paying an exit tax. And they've been pushing for serious penalties against Americans who have revoked their citizenship, such as a permanent ban on ever re-entering, even if just as a temporary tourist to visit, say, a dying relative in the hospital.

Like I said, there are lots of barriers put in the way to prevent Americans from escaping. In Canada, there are none. You don't need to renounce your citizenship, you can return to Canada anytime you want. You don't have any penalties or exit tax for leaving Canada. You don't have to abide by Canadian laws now that you've left Canada--you can travel or live anywhere in the world without restriction, and you don't have to tell the Canadian government where you're going and what you're doing. Canada respects the various UN treaties on human rights, including the basic human right of freedom of movement (the right to leave your country with no strings attached, and return with no restrictions at any time). And, if Canada violates these basic UN conventions, you can sue in Canadian court. It's totally the opposite this side of the border.