A commonly held perception regarding Vedas is their prejudice against Shudras. Vedas are accused of being Brahminical texts designed to subdue the Shudras. They are considered to be the source of caste-based discrimination that is touted as the primary characteristic of Hinduism/ Sanatan Dharma or Vedic Dharma. The entire pro-Dalit movement also has its foundation on this baseless notion.

Unfortunately, nothing could be far from truth. In this series of articles, we would provide evidence from Vedas and related texts to establish the following:

a. The meaning of four Varnas and Shudra in particular is completely different from what the Macaulay inspired intellectuals would want us to believe. b. There is absolutely no element of birth-based discrimination or denial of opportunity for any human being in Vedic way of life. c. If there is one text that provides evidence of highest level of meritocracy and equal-opportunity, it is the Vedas. Even the most contemporary texts on human rights cannot come closer.

Before we begin our journey of solving the caste-puzzle through Vedas, let us start with certain worship mantras from Vedas that mention Shudras:

Yajurved 18.48:O Lord! Provide enlightenment/ compassion to our Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. Provide me also with the same enlightenment so that I can see the truth.

Yajurved 20.17:Whatever crime we have committed against my village, forest or committee; whatever crime we have committed through our organs, whatever crime we have committed against Shudras and Vaishyas, whatever crime we have done in matters of Dharma, kindly forgive us relieve us from the tendency of the same.

Yajurved 26.2:The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden. The scholars and the wealthy people should ensure that they not deviate from this message of mine.

Atharvaved 19.32.8:O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.

Atharvaved 19.62.1:May all noble people admire me. May kings and Kshatriyas admire me. May all look at me with admiration. May the Shudras and Vaishyas admire me.

It is clear from these mantras that …….For complete content of this post, you can buy copy of following Agniveer book. Simply click and order your copy. Happy reading.

First ever book on the misconceptions of birth based caste system in Hinduism! This book will dispel all myths and establish the principles of social equality that form the foundations of Hinduism. More info →

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Disclaimer: By Quran and Hadiths, we do not refer to their original meanings. We only refer to interpretations made by fanatics and terrorists to justify their kill and rape. We highly respect the original Quran, Hadiths and their creators. We also respect Muslim heroes like APJ Abdul Kalam who are our role models. Our fight is against those who misinterpret them and malign Islam by associating it with terrorism. For example, Mughals, ISIS, Al Qaeda, and every other person who justifies sex-slavery, rape of daughter-in-law and other heinous acts. For full disclaimer, visit "Please read this" in Top and Footer Menu.

I am founder of Agniveer. Pursuing Karma Yog. I am an alumnus of IIT-IIM and hence try to find my humble ways to repay for the most wonderful educational experience that my nation gifted me with. I am also on Quora.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 124: Narrated Usama: The Prophet said, “I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor, while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women.”

Sahih Muslim 33—The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

QUESTION: In fact there is an caste system outside India called doctors,lawyers, scientist, politicians, and it is too inherited to some degrees as educated tend to remain educated. There will be class conflict always, as no one would like to think anyone is superior or inferior. But in Hindu dharma stories of Shudra, Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas,

ANSWER: San sir, everyone agree with you in the point of outside in India called doctor, lawyers, scientists and politicians and in Hindus are called shudra, Vaisj\h, Akshtriya and Brahmin. But you do not understand the main point doctors, lawyers, scientists and politicians are free for their betterment and upliftment of their life to luxury there was no bar. But in Hinduism being a capability shudra never do the upper verna jobs, not wear good clothes, not acquire education, not eat good food, not save money for future of their children, Shudra banned for r acquired the knowledge of Vaish, Akshtriya, and Brahmins, Vaish also banned and never acquqire the knowledge of Akshtriya, Akshtriya also banned and never acquired the knowledge of Brahmins. But brahmins are free to acquired the knowledge of Akshtrya, Vaish and shudra, Akshtriya free to acquired the knowledge of Vaish and Shudra, Vaish free for acquire the knowledge of Shudra. Upper verna have options for Shudra totally banned and do their traditional work. But outside india doctor’s son become engineer, Lawyers, Scientis, there was no bar. Eklvaye become super than Arjun with his self efforts was merit but Hindu Dharma push back him instead of avoid hard work by Akshtriya. AISA DHARM KIS KAM KA JO MANVATA AUR MERIT KE HIT ME HI NA HO.

You keep on posting comment here but not talking anything concrete. Why not you answer me? What Should Hindu do now if their ancestors did something wrong as written many stories above by you?

Agniveer Sir, Thanx a lot you are really great you accept ancestors of hindus did something wrong and that something wrong become a huge problem for nation each and everyone see and face and that something wrong was facing since long back, no problem leave the past, but need a treatment for young generation and i.e. “EK BRAHMIN ABHI BHI EK DOCTOR / SCIENTIST SE GOBER KI POOJA KARWATA HAI” Please tell me sir are we did that was done by our ancesoters.

Sir, Change is the law of nature, Our forefathers wear Dhoti, Kurta, then why we wear jeans shirt, Trace out ur sorrunding how many people know sanskrit, how many people have veda and how many knows about them, I never hate vedas and not like also. 99% black money generator also believe in veda and never do according to veda what r they doing if you believe in veda then do as per veda otherwise leave it. 99% indian evern vedas followes children studying in English medium schools, they speak english, read english, write enlish wear enlish, eat english use toilet english, bed room english, kitchen english hair style english they never like choti on head and talking about veda. Sir, Sanskrit or hindi ke liye kewal mandir ki job hai. Aap pane bete ka naam Sh. Shayam Lal rakho beta shame fill karega friends mai agar Mr. Sam rakho then ask him.

Agniveer Sir, Our Prime Minister asked on 4th May on the auspecious occassion of Budha Purnima in Tal Katora STadium at New Delhi that Sabhi Gyan ki Pustak = One Mantra that is Aatm Deepo Bhawo, I listen this mantra first time . I think these three words are more than sufficient for development of a nation and we all can seen the effect of these words in Baudhist Nations. Now one question again rise our What role play Vedas, Geeta Ramayana, Puranas Samrities and lakhs of Big and Small temples with uncounted money including cash and gold also , in socity.

Agniveer Sir you are reqeusted to kind reply my pending post dated 28th April as early as possible.

Sir, Vedas come is light after the birth of Swami Daya Nand Sarswati. Before that nobody knows about vedas. In the 2500 years history of Bharat each and every foreigner looted, beated, exploited our people including women also and Som Nath Mandir Looted evern 15-16 Times then No Arya come forwared to help these temples, nation property and also help the women except Sikh community.

Sir, I think Veda are like Swiss bank , Knowledge of veda is like Black money of corrupt people, Only handful people knows about that bank and that money . Our P.M. begging money from Japan for Bullet train and our money hold in swiss bank. Can Vedas remove all types corruption from our nation, I Lot os nations do not know about Vedas but they have lot of humen values from Bharat, They are corruption free Old age people and children are National property, Their Veda less community and Govt. provide world class Education, Food and Medical treatment at very nominal price from top to bottom. We feel proud of them not on Vedas.

In the recent natural calamity in Nepal, Golden Temple delivered one lac food packet and Bangla Sahib Guru Dwara delivered 25 thousand food packet daily. There are lot of big temples in country and maths what are they doing. Sikhism believe in huminity not in Vedas. TODAY WE NEED HUMINTY NOT VEDAS.

Black money of swiss bank have no contribution the India’s development and we have money but our Prime Minister begging from other nationa for development of India. If Vedas have knowledge but we purchase all technology from other nations, even PM wants to covert Varanasi into Smart city but we have no money and knowledge for it and depend uon other nation.

Vedas believers believe that vedas have knowledge and solution of each and every thing. India suffering lots of problems i.e. corruption, poor quality of education, Unemployment, lack of proper policies for humen development. Have any veda any solution of these serious problems. 98% hindu believe in Vedasif huminty available in Vedas then all the above mentioned problems solve automatically. Indian History availabe in education system told us lot of foreigners attack and looted. Do you know they were not Arya. I may be wrong but our history told us and at present availble. No body see all these things from their own eyes then why i believe in VEDAS.

@Dalbir Singh ____________Prime Minister begging from other nationa for development of India____________

I believe prime minister should not beg at least enemies of Islam like USA, France etc. All Islamic country be Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, licking the shoes of USA. Today, USA killed a two believers who opposed the event organised for Best Cartoon Painting of prophet Muhammad will be awarded 10000 US $.

_______________Vedas believers believe that vedas have knowledge and solution of each and every thing.___________

They are not correct. Veda do not have knowledge how to haircut, how to urinate, method of circumcision, how to make chapati, How to wear Sari, Burqa, how to bow down while praying to God, etc. etc.

Sir modi visited USA and France during the last few months. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, licking the shoes of USA. reason being they have knowledge and technology and without it they cannot do nohting. Pakistan political crises cannot unit the pakistan for this they are responsible for licking the shoes. Japan is tipical and smaller than Pakistan but USA and China and other developed countries salute for their hardwork and cooperation and unity of their population. During sunami in japan almost whole japan ruined but within one year you see as it is before the sunami.

1. but not clear about false storeis aur true stories and not clearly mentioned that the charactors of that stories are true or false. As per your organisation opinion please clear the following books are stories books and there is no relationship of these books with hindu.

Ramayana, Geeta, Mahabharata, All purans Samrities .

2. 98% people believe in that stories, because in the todays society structure and enviroment like verna system, caste systema and exploation of shudra aur women can seen by the people including you in our day day life only less than 2% people talking about veda, but there is no symputums in the society as per veda. 3. Please tell me Devtas mentioned in all Vedas. 4. Who was the first lady teacher of our country.

We all agree that your vedas, geeta, ramanyna and other scriputures are humentarian. But in indian society (Hindu) all hates everyone in every step. In educated families they hate in silent way and in rural area they hate openly. Most exploitation of shudra and women particularly in pure hindusiam locality as compare to other. We celebrate Navratras twice in a year but rape case increase day by day in hindu localities.

Rama murderer Shambuka being a shudra shame for humanity. Vishnu rape wife of jalandhra’wife shame for humanity Indra rape Ahilya and chandra help him also same for humanity Prashar rape kewat daughter also shame for humanity. Parshuram educate only bramans why not other three verna. Dhronacharya also done shameful activity with eklvya. There are lot examples after that an educated person why belive in Hinduasim. Learn some thing Japan, china, Russia, Korea, USA, Canada and UK. We maximum waste our time and money in un-necessary religious baseless topic instead of development of humanity and nation. In social service Pakistan, Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal compete Bharat. It is shameful for us.

Stories don’t make religion. Essence of Hinduism is Vedas and not stories of other books. What society does is not Dharma. If society acts against humanity, society is wrong. But Dharma always stands for equality and respect. Let us establish Dharma and not bother about other nonsense. There are good things in other countries’ ways and we embrace them. But that does not mean we become monkeys who imitate them. We have our spiritual heritage that is far more powerful. Let that guide us instead of materialism and let us adopt best practices from all sides. Be original, be rational. Dont be a monkey.

Stories don’t make religion but religion make lot of stories and write lot of books like Vedas, Ramayana, Geeta, Puransand Samrities with fake charactors like Rama, Krishana, Parsurama, Indera, Surya, Chander, Brahmins and with other animals like cow etc.Please destroy these story books and their charactors.

Essence of Hinduism is Vedas and not stories of other books. Vedas are also same books with same charactors like Indera, Chandra, Vayu, Brahmins and animal. Secondly, Hindu word is not available in any veda it is given for foreigners who attack on India then there is no meaning of essence of hinduism.

What society does is not Dharma. If society acts against humanity, society is wrong. But Dharma always stands for equality and respect. Let us establish Dharma and not bother about other nonsense. Rama, Parsurama, Krishana, Darona, Pandvas and part of society at that time they act murder of Shambuka in Balmiki Ramayana Uttara Kand, Parsurama Sharpa Karna after giving education, Krishan authencate division of society in Geeta in the shape of Verna, Pandavas insult Eklavya and Darona Beg thumb without giving education. Tell me where is Dharma. what difference in that time society and today’s society. There are totally exploitation of poor people called shudra. No equality was that time But Dr. B.R.Ambedkar have lot of provision in constitution for equality and everyone can see the changes. In Hinduism no meaning of Dharma. There was and is totally Darama.

There are good things in other countries’ ways and we embrace them. Good you are absolutely right we want to become our country like Japn, China, Korea, Canada, France but it is not possible for us witout destorying Hindusim and all that belongingss because we have waste lot of times in these stupid discussion whaste money, time and energy. developed countries used their totally energy for the development of their nation and huminity. Why modi begging door to door in all developed countries. Jai…

I read comments from all members on Brahims, Shudra, Kshatriya. I havent read any books related to vedas, upanishad etc. But yes i have moved across the length and breadth of country from UP, delhi to Gujarat, MP, Maharashtra, Hyderabad .

I observed in UP, north india most dalits are downtrodden,poor and supressed mostly due to their habits , not due to varna system. They are fond of drinking country made wine daily, they dont give importance to education,gamble and are not organzied , means lack unity. and they lack initiative , courage and enterpreneurship too. They are jelous of each other and try to cut each other, due to this brahmin and other caste take advantageof them.

There was only one dalit till now who stood aagainst tyranny of Kshatriya who name was Phoolan devi, the famous bandit . Movie was made on her life by shekhar kapur named bandit queen which shows reality on UP rural.

Today in north India, UP, bihar, Brahmins cant supress Yadav who were also once called backward supressed caste as they have become united, started giving importance to education, govt job and also they are enterpreneurs now. Same is for Kurmis who are now organzied that they can repulse the supression of brahmins and kshatriyas,

Vishal Saxena sir i agree with you, Upper three vernas are exploited lower three vernas, They need their service, shudra is only to provide cheap or free service to upper three vernas, If Sweeper comunity educate them selves they forget their sweeping job no one can do suhc type of job at the cheap or lowest cost. Uper three vernas are exploited shudra if they ask them if you drink, gambling and do other anti-social activities we all social bye-cut your community, in this movement thier females also support in this nobale cause. In Haryana state, Town Gohana 2 or 3 person killed a upper verna man and almost all the panchayatas and khaps of Haryana including indirectly support Top to bottom Govt. administration become together for the revenage and they burn all the Basti / Colony of that shudra community instead of 2/3 person,s house who involved in this case. If they can do such illeagal inctivities they also ask them forcibly to avoid drinking, gambling and other anti social ativities, This is one of the noble job for society and even development of nation. They they do it shudra become up the same status of upper three verna and then who provide service them at cheap aur lowest cost. So upper three verans are not agree for their development. They they become educated they demand more and more cost of their job and due to this they can improve their life style then upper class feek jealousy that is the main reason.

Dear Agniveer, For the upanayam(yagnopaveetham) ritual, children of Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya varna are allowed. How was their varna decided and that too at an early age? I don’t think they could have decided their occupation at a tender age of 7-12 years. Kindly solve my doubt. I want to remain a proud Hindu.

Swapnil Sagar Sir, I agree with 100% a male/female child born in which invironment they learn the activites, accept and follow that activities happened in sorrunding, A brhamin child listen mantras and see other religious activites and learn, listen and accept them. A Akshatriya child also learn, listen and aceept like war stories and use weapson, A Vaish child also learn, listen and accept business activies happnend surrounding him and a shudra also see his related job like Lohar, Kumhar, Chamar, Julaha, Nai, Sonar etc. and also do the same. First part of education and second is occupation in the early age 12-15 years proper education is not completed in any circumstance, there is no question of occupation. upnayana sanskar they do three time first time at that time of age all are elligible. In that early age what is parameter to identify who is Brahmin, Askhtriaya Vaise aur Shudra. At this stage all are eligible but shudra not eligible at this early stage. Then why u ask Karma system. VEDAS are only fraud they work for shudras demotivation.

Conclusion : Only birth verna system in available WHO ASK KARMA SYSTEM THEY TELL A LIE ONLY PAKHAD. THEY CANNOT PROVE KARMA SYSTEM IN HINDUASIM.

namaskar i too agree the sudra term is a varna and not jati. the difinition for shudra is शुचा द्रावति इति शूद्र: one who suffers without knowing the value and the merit of knowledge. pl kindly refer the discussion between janasruti and rishi raigva. regards nandhitha

Nandhitha jee one who suffers without knowing the value and the merit of knowledge. Each and every person want knowledge Rama murder Shambuka provide reservation only brahmins and demotivate shudra for acquring knowledge. Is shudra responsible for this. Eklavya acquired knowldege in his own power but Dronacharya begging his thump and demotivate all shudra due to this they feared to acqired knowledge who is responsible for this. Only Hindu books, gods and Brahminis are responsible for this. JAB KNOWLEDGE ACQUIRE KARNE KA MAUKA MILA TO HINDUO KO NAGWAR HO RAHA HAI. SAWIDHAN LIKHNA BRAHMANO KE BOOTE KI BAT NHI THI WO TO KEWAL PAKHADWADI RMAYAN AUR GETA HUI LIKH SAKTE HAI. Verna made by GOD and jatis made by brahmins, In Geeta Krishana make a blunder mistake talking about Verna and divide humanity in four parts and after that Brahmins divide into four hundred parts. BHART KI GULAMI THE MAIN REASON YHI THA AUR YAHI LOG JIMMEWAR HAI.

The vaishyas were businessmen and artisans. They provided essential services and generated wealth for the nation. The taxes they paid became the economic backbone of the country. The vaishyas had a limited sphere of influence graded on their monetary status. They had the dominion over wealth. But even they had to bow down before brahmins and kshatriyas and this shows that money power couldnt buy them higher status, as is the case today.

The shudras were the people who were asked to assist the higher 3 varnas. These people were not intelligent enough to master scripture or fine arts to become brahmins. They weren’t bodily strong enough or couldn’t master the martial arts to become kshatriyas. They weren’t shrewd enough to run a business or skilled enough to be artisans. They had dominion over nothing. They were usually assigned with sanitation tasks. Even this was considered a service to society.

The scripture says that every child is born a shudra. This implies the child is not competent to take up any skilled task. When he reaches 8-10 years of age, the child is evaluated for latent skills and assigned to one of the 4 groups. So the assignment of a child to any group is not hereditary but skill based. So even the son of a high souled scholar, a brave soldier or a influential rich businessman could be a shudra, provided the child has no skills. The son of a shudra could belong to one of the higher groups if he showed skill and enterprise.

But the hindu society faltered when assignment of varna became hereditary instead of skill-based. This resulted in certain families being branded as shudras for generations, even if the progeny was highly skilled. This is called the caste system and not the varna system. So please understand to differentiate between the intentions and effects of the 2 systems. Fight against caste oppression but dont heap faults on the varna system. Like I demonstrated before, every society subtly follows the varna system of merit.

The brahmins were practitioners of spirituality in a primary role. They were scholars, teachers and advisors during their free time in an alternate role. They were the moral compass of society and could adjudicate during disputes, coz they were trusted to be god-fearing and impartial. The brahmins had maximum sphere of influence since they were the interpretors of scripture, advisors of kings and educators to society. They had the dominion over knowledge. The spiritual practices of the brahmins would be hindered if they were forced to fend for themselves. So the society would be kind enough to sustain them with generous voluntary donations. This shows that even the highest caste had to live on alms.

The kshatriyas were the rulers, soldiers, defenders and enforcers of law. They alone would participate in a war and had to be prepared to give the highest sacrifice. The normal subjects would not be dragged in as collateral damage. This made more sense since the winning king would have the intellectual and economic structure still intact when he took over and wouldn’t have to start from scratch. He only had to deploy his soldiers in the annexed kingdom. Normal life would not be disrupted due to war. The kshatriyas had high sphere of influence since they were the rulers. They had the dominion over weapons. But even they had to bow down before the brahmins for advice. They had to tax the vaishya community justly for having the treasury and granaries stocked well.

The brahmins were practitioners of spirituality in a primary role only for themselves not for humanity . Brahamans and hindus were not allowed vaish and shudra to join army before 1833, not allowed shudra to take education, In veda and hindusiam to option to shift a shudra to another superiod profession and enter in the upper verna. Even not married in upper vrna girl. But upper verna male/famale can do all lower verna profession. THIS IS ONLY A MOVEMENT TO SAVE THEIR SKIN BY BRHAMINS REASON BEING NEW GENERATION HATES VEDAS, GEETA, RAMAYANA, MANUSAMRITY AND PURANS, FOR BRAHMINS THIS IS ONLY SAFE AND SURE WAY TO EARN MAXIMUM AND DOING MINIMUM WAY.

Caste system is nothing but a social degradation/mis-implementation of the varna system. Caste is birth based, varna is merit based. Hinduism cannot be held responsible for this fallacy. It is a social issue wherein hindus stopped following the central tenet of varna system, viz merit and not birth, thus nullifying the system, but still persisted with the flawed system anyways. So the perfect varna system morphed into the terrible caste monster.

You may be seated in India or US. Don’t you see that merit has more value in this world? For example, let us consider certain occupations. A scientist can invent/discover stuff that others cant even fathom. A soldier/policeman safeguards people and would give up his life, if necessary, in the line of duty. A chartered accountant or a retailer provides services based on certain skills. A garbage collector performs essential sanitation services.

If not for the garbage collector, the city would stink and harmful diseases would spread. If not for people with specific skills and traders, the society wouldn’t generate wealth and the economy would collapse. If not for brave people such as the armed forces/police force, security would be threatened. If not for intellectual capital of a nation, there would be no scientific and technological advancements such as space missions and advanced disaster warning systems.

What does that tell you? All the 4 occupations are important. But society grades occupations based on skill and sphere of influence. In your blind hate for casteism and anti-hindu propaganda, you are suggesting all occupations are equal. If that was the case, would you suggest equal pay for the scientist and the garbage collector? No occupation is lowly, but that doesn’t imply all occupations are treated the same. There should be dignity of labour.

Sir, I agree you with verna is merit base, but may be 000.1 and balance is birth base. A responsible person believe only the seen situation aur scientifically proved situations, Jati and verna all birth base, Ravana done only a mistake to caputre sita except this he is totally very humanative and helpful to humanity, but we killed him and we burn every year. Why…. Ramayana, Geeta, Manusamrity , Ruranas have lot of evils , that may be wrong or right, true or false, it is no matter about 98% indian follow and celebrate . In Ramayana shambuk murders, geeta krishan talked about verna system if arjun is akshtriaya he know to operate weapns but Eklavya also operate weapns better then arjun then why he become shudra reason being he born in a tribal community, Manusamrity have lot of inequalities then why you repeat again and again Vedas and birth systems . Parsuraman sharpa Karana in mahabharata because he born in akshatriya. Parsurama reserve the right for brahamana, Darona for Akshtrya by birth not by Karma. AAP HINDU DHARM KO KAHI SE SHURU KARO USKA END JANAM AADHAR PAR HOGA KARM PAR NHI.

You are correct Dalbir Singh ji. Caste system in India is based on birth and not on occupation [i.e. karam]. I have been saying that since long. Every caste is like an ethnic community or derived or claims to have roots from an ethnic community and every caste has its traditional history though said in mythical form [i.e. called ‘kula purana’]. This is the key to the longevity and almost indestructibility of the caste system. Also this caste system should have ante-dated the Aryan phase [whether Aryans were nomadic tribes from Middle East or indigenous etc. here not necessary] since the early vedic texts do not contain reference to the caste system and the purusha sukta in which shudras etc. are said to have born from the feet of that Purusha, etc. are of the later vedic times. It is like African tribes with their various and different cultural identities being assimilated in slave society under colonial masters and taking up Christianity but still hankering for their ‘roots’. Fortunately, unlike the Africans who were subjected to horrible genocides and almost obliteration of their culture, traditions, etc. here in Hindu society every caste has been allowed the freedom to work and operate in its own sphere, of course in a specific place in the hierarchy, but not totally extinguished [like the ‘Red Indians’ in North America or the natives in South America, ‘Bushmen’ in Australia, etc. etc.]. By this I am not denying that in phases of conquest the defeated tribes were not subjected to atrocities, massacres, etc. But the very philosophy or psyche inherent in Hindu society in general of shunning the ‘other castes’ and not ‘accepting and assimilating’ them has served as a boon to the identity and continued existence of these ethnic communities in different slots in the hierarchy. That is why you find many of the Western scholars and analysts in the late 19th and some even in early 20th century also lauding the durability, tenability etc. of caste system.

Sir, GOD, VEDAS, RAMA, RAMAYANA, GEETA, KRISHANA, PURANS, SAMRITIES ARE only for discussion, effect of thest have been seen only may be 1% in the sorrounding socities in all communities. We discuss here all good things requried for humanity but in the society totally opposite. Before 1833 there was no equality in any sephere and in any verna. British Govt. provide equality in 1833 after that shudra joined British Army. All superiors jobs are 100% reserved for upper three verna. At that time GOD VEDA RAMA RAMAYANA KRISHANA GEETA BECAME HANDICAPPED DEAF AND DUMB, who believe in VEDA why they become silent why they not takling about equality. Shudra was always explointed were hindu population in majority. In the present days maximum shudra exploitation cases from UP, Bihar, MP states.

You are free to have your opinion. Vedas however do not consider anyone Brahmin or Shudra by birth. And see, you are abusing some Brahmins despite this article and there being no evidence that all Brahmins are your enemy. So you are full of hate and prejudice. How do you expect then that others will not show same behavior towards you that you are showing towards them?

Agnivir Sir, You are free to have your opinion. Who provide this freedom for opinion. Before entred Islam, Shuras have not free to have their opinion about baseless and inequal system of Hindusaim. For this very painful punishments are available in Manusamriti you can read and that was inplimented in all shudra and other verna. Even if a shudra has talent he has no right to shift in higher profession as per their will before 1833. After 1833 British Govt. provide this facility to shudra on merit basis and Sh. Mata Deen Bhagi and Father of Hon,ble Dr. B.R.Ambedakr joined Army. After 1833 no symtums of VEDAS were available in Hindusiam. In the Time of Krishana Eklavya become world’s Topmost DHANUSHDHARI what was the result each and every one knows. At that time what was doing VEDAs and their followers now a days who demanding equality. That was not on KARMA that was on BIRTH base abd merit base. Corruption and reservations started by Hindusiam and their GODs. This is not my views I read in Ramanaya, Geeta, Purans and Samrities.

You are abusing some Brahmins despite this article and there being no evidence that all Brahmins are your enemy. So you are full of hate and prejudice. How do you expect then that others will not show same behavior towards you that you are showing towards them?

Shudras are not begger, Brahamins are Beggers, Shudra demand for their rights being a human and that was Right o eucation without education man is like animal and they use Women and shudra like animal . Now shudra and women become educated and have knowledge more than brahmins this right provide British Govt. not VEDA or Brahmins, BRAHAMINS, AKSHTRIYA AND VAISH HAD ENJOYED RESERVATION THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND SHUDRA ENJOY THIS ONLY FEW YEAR COMPERATIVELY THAT IS NOT FULLY AT THIS TIME. CAN ANY VEDA OR VEDA FOLLOWER PROVIDE THIS FACILITY TO SHUDRA EQUAL TO YEARS THEY ENJOYED

@ Tamil: I am very keen to know that – is there any proper proof of the lines like ” vedantha was neglected by Brahmins”? if there are some proofs, are they written in English with limited knowledge persons in Sanskrit?

Can you clarify me – Adi shankaracharya, Madhva charya etc., who wrote commentaries to Prasthana traya ( Upanishads,Brahma sutra and Bhagavad geetha) were Brahmins or not? If they were Brahmins, How can we say the above line.

It is a rumor that – Valmiki and Vyasa were sudras who wrote and promoted Purana, Ithihasa Literature in Sanskrit. Is it true or false? If it is true why Sudras developed Brahmin culture? Why dint they oppose it?

It is a rumor that – Valmiki and Vyasa were sudras who wrote and promoted Purana, Ithihasa Literature in Sanskrit. Is it true or false? If it is true why Sudras developed Brahmin culture? Why dint they oppose it?

Shudras and women exploited in hinduism, when u talking to any hindu about Shambuka murderer in Uttra Kand of Ramayana, he replied it is written in Tulasi Ramayna not in Valmiki Ramayana. There are lot of Ramayna in Hinduism the current version is known by Asha ramayna by Assha Ram recently available in Jodhpur Jail. There is no proof of valmiki who wrote ramayna, All hindus hate valmiki community and why respect Valmiki ramayana.

Vayasa was the illeagal son of Prasar Rishi, During the time of river crossing by Prashar he raped daughter of Kewat and born illegal son called Ved Vayas, Have any method or education for identiying any person who is brahmin aur shudra. Thruough this brahmin cheated all humanity, All verna system and caste system is birth base, They set few examples for proving that verna system is on Karma base. Now we can say, HATHI KE DANT KHANE KE AUR DIKHANE KE AUR means double mouth snake. This is not my view available in hindu religious books and play daramas in stages.

I have seen guys like you post, but you know what, I never once seen you guys give one solution. Okay, you listed some issues, which I disagree with, but let’s even say they are all 100% correct, what is your solution. I really want to hear it. All you guys ever do is post problems, but never one solution. I are you to STUPID to come up with a solution. Do you lack the brain power to come up with a good solution. Are you a RETARD.

Krishanrao sir, Good monrning, Please now come to the point of solution, Solution of each and problem with Brahmins and Aryans because a nobel prson always believe in Karma system not birth. If a shudra become educated then he become Brahmin by Karma not by birthcan Aryan or brahmin married their daughter with a that person who is shudra by birth and Brahmin by KarmaTiil date I have never seen any case. Now come to the solution.

An aryana or brahmin first married their daughter to a shudra by birth and Brahmin by karma and first prefeence to poor educated and help financially for their upliftment. This system motivate all the shudras male for qcquiring education and each and every one be educated. and second he married his/her son with daughter of shudra by birth and brahmin by karma, i mean to say educated girls of shudra. This first generation feel differences between verna system after 2 or 3 generation all are become equal and then talk about eauality and reservation automatically finish. Then our Prime not begging technology and financial assistence for Bullet train to Japan.

__________—- If a shudra become educated then he become Brahmin by Karma not by birthcan Aryan or brahmin married their daughter with a that person who is shudra by birth and Brahmin by KarmaTiil date I have never seen any case._________________________

There are many case like this. My Boss is a Vaishya. He married to his daughter with Shudra by birth but a Brahimin by deeds. My brother is Vaishya by birth but he is Shudra by deed so we get him married with Shudra girl.

Varna System prevails in all society of the world. Saudi Arabian believe themselves Brahimin (Superior) so they not give their daughter to non-Arab Muslim because they believe them Shudra Muslim.

Krishna Rao sir, There are very few cases available in our society need to increase more and more, There are some other factors working here like less sex ratio of female, female is job. In north India vaish community have an evil of dowry, poor vaish families who have not fulfil vaish boy demand then married their daughter to shudra family. This is not a matter of Vaish and Shudra also Brahmin and Akshtrya by birth and karma also.

Saudi Arabian muslim never allow education to their daughters, and have plenty of money for their livelyhood, India also face the same stage when there is no right of education for women. If arabian muslim girls become educated then they also choose their life partner as per their convinent.

You are right Krishana Rao jee, Arabia muslims believes in by birth superior. When a shudra convert into cristian he beocme 100% father in a church, In sikhism he can become 100% Granthi in Gurudawara, If he convert into Budh he can become Monk. But a shudra never become Brahmin/Pandit after reading and follow veda, geeta ramayana etc.etc.so shameful for humanity. There are lot of tamples in India where only by birth brahmins are allow to enter even. Even in ISCON foreigners are adopt it and they are more dedicated , Honest, faithful and do better than Hindus/Brahmins for this organisation, but they are also treated inferior than Brahmin/Hindu the why Krishana Bhogwan not come for justice. There are y 100% reservation of by birth Brahmin without merit why they are crying for SC/ST/OBC reservation and talking about equality, HATHI KE DANT KHANE KE AUR DIKHANE KE AUR.

Dear Dalbir, I have solution to your all problems if you really want to get rid from Varna or birth Caste system whatever you may call this. If all people of India convert into Islam they would become free from the clutches of caste system and social injustice. And it is very easy. You can do this by reciting “Shahada” and change your identity by changing your name into any preferable Arbian Name. In the past many people of Indian sub-continent did this. Today 25 Crore Muslim of India 20 Crores Muslim of Pakistan, Many crores people of Bangladesh and Afghanistan are free from the clutches of caste system and living life of self esteemed.

janmana jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah veda-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanah “By birth one is a sudra (lowest caste), by the purificatory process one becomes a dvija (higher caste), by study of the Vedas one becomes a vipra, and one who knows Brahman is a brahmana.” The four class which was created as brahmin,kshatriya,vaishnava and shudra was not class it was a cycle of life. pls read from down shudra ( innocense), vaishnava(learning to earn),kshatriya ( fighting for life) and in the end comes brahmana ( means after innocence, learning, struggling for life , human being gains lots of knowledge thats wen u r in the end of u r life thats when u r called the knowledgeable person) ,thats y every person in life asks suggestion with eldermost person in life .

“O Indra, what do the cows make for you among the Kikatas? They neither yield milk for your offerings, nor do they warm the vessel of libation. Bring to us these cows, bring to us also the wealth of Pramagand (their King). O Brave one, grant us the possessions of the people of low status.” [Rigveda 3:53:14]

On the basis of this clear pronouncement, non-Aryans and untouchables have no right to keep cows. Aryans, whenever they wish can kill them and appropriate their possessions. Hindu culture thus becomes the culture of the progress, civilization and welfare of the Aryan people alone. The pathetic plight of the untouchables of India was due to instructions like these given by Hindu scriptures.” Can the learned rebut these

Idea of Rigveda mantra 3/53/14- Amongst the ignorants like who are follower of rapist, pedophilia personality, the cows are not taken care of/nursed, hence, the number of cows does not increase there. Similarly, the good qualities and righteousness does not progress amongst the killers of cow. So, to avoid this path of hell, belief in to do righteousness is required to be popularized.

I don’t understand why one should blame Gandhiji for giving the name Harijans instead of applauding him. Actually Gandhi only adopted a name already current in Gujarat and applied it countrywide. What is so denigrating if one caste is called children of the God which that name means? He wanted to convince the upper castes that it is not good to ostracize them or oppress them since they are also children of the God. That was his way of dealing with problems. Even Ambedkar did not fight with him on this name until very late in the day, it seems. Actually the word, Dalit, which means ‘cut off’ is rather insipid since it only points out to a condition already existing and not to an ideal or ethics which should be achieved. And now we see, even many or all backward castes (OBCs) are also sought to be brought under that ‘dalit’ category, diluting the efforts to identify the problems of the most downtrodden or ostracized sections of the society.

Question: I don’t understand why one should blame Gandhiji for giving the name Harijans instead of applauding him. Actually Gandhi only adopted a name already current in Gujarat and applied it countrywide. What is so denigrating if one caste is called children of the God which that name means?

Reply: Are u children of God, your reply yes and all hindus also replied yes they why you write sharma with your name why not you write MALLIKARJUN HARIJAN. None of Hindu like to write it with his/her name. Why? Only a particular comunity of Shudra write. Why? Listen carefully meaning of Harijan. In Hinduism AASHARAM KANYA AND DEV DASI system is available before the birth of RAMA. It means donate a young female to an Ashram or Temple for serving GOD. Dev Dasi system is also available in Southern india in the recent time. There are lot of example of Raja’s who donate groupe of females to brahmins and they sexually harass them and during this process illegal born babies called HARIJAN. It is real meaning of Harijan not Children of God. If it means children of God then everyone feel proud to write Harijan with his/her name. Gandhi always cheat lower caste, if he, Sardar Patel and Nehru give piece of land to shudra for their livelyhood, Nobody demand for reservation. They give pakistan and Bangla desh land to Muslim and muslim landlords also available in india but Gandhi and party cheat shudra by not giving a small piece of land. Their forefathers always serves the upper caste but muslim always hate and beat them.

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….shudra or vaishya (yes, either of it) he could become a Brahman or vidvan or scholar if he had the talent. so the point is, one could only claim a varna if he worked according to that or had a job and talent congenial to that.. that doesnt mean that everybody would be any four of these.. if one doesnt work he cannot be classified among any of these four. And, women were not included into this system because men used to work in professions while women only had to be part of household. there could be a very rare females who were ascoaited with literary work. But that cannot be taken as a profssion. So while one has a profession he must stick to it although he’s free to skip.. to avoid mayhem, rules wre laid later in society to prevent chaos. but that didnt mean that one could be celebrated r hated only on basis of his birthname or family. But this did happen in course of time, and it can happen because of human weakness.. that, one dealing in flowrs, Gods, temples, itra etc is acceptable than a sweeper, worker, labourer. It was and it is indeed the biggest crime by us, all of us, because the Dharm is for everyone and it must be taken to every member of society.but it was forgotten because nobody questioned the wrongs initiateed by the socalled Brahmans. So one, they were not brahmans actually because there possibility of only 9% of a true Brahman and atmost 30% including who can be “like Brahman”. This is astrological deliniation.. the above mentioned classificarion is not correct fuly. The varna system was only an academic division not bound by family name..but in distortions it led to communities, caste which is totally wrong. having a caste is not wrong but laying supremacy or inferiority with birth or a particular caste is a sin.. but this sin has been perpetuated. The proper teaching to every member was a responsibility of the pandit or brahman=one invovled in worship etc but that was not done. The curse of untouchability has come with muslims and the state dictated dominancy of today’s…

….the most intellectually evolved, learned and with the highest enlightenment. Brahman could only be one person because tatvagyan cannot be acquired by every learned man. Other learned could be called as Vipra, Dvij (any one put into education after diksha sanskar was a dvij ), pandit etc.. so Brahman cannot be ascribed to everyone. Thats why vidvan is used. Now beside the King and the mukhya vidvan ie Brahman all other were equal..they all four classification varna were decided on their work=performance. In a single family as been quoted from rigveda= 9.112.3 there could be multiple varna of people in the same family. the varna are traits, qualities, propeties, characteristics, talent for a particular task.. so that meant you cannot pass it to your children. You can preate your child but you cannot make it what you want and it can never become of our varna only by being your child. varna doesnt carry in generation. One may inherit field and plough but that doesnt make him a vaishya or shudra, one may inherit sword and shield but that doesnt make him a kshatriya.. but the most important fact is … all born ar shudra, means we all can perform the job of a shudra ie. working and thriving by using our hands or physical work. many of us can work like vaishya means doing trade like opening a shop, some lesser can become kashatriya or warriors.. not everyone can go to army or police. But the very small group of humans are the one who can be brahman or pandit, vidvan, vipra, jyotishi, vaidya, etc etc.. I again say, Brahma is a very evovled state of learned men=pandits who wre the greatest seers like Kashyap, Bhrigu etc etc. All Brahmans have to be celibate or unmarried. They could or they had only disciples, no children. Even though they had children they couldn’t become brahmins by birth only. This was known in those times because jyotish was widely known and accepted in that time. social mobility was possible as family name might not direct one’s own varna.. so one from a family where his fathefarmer ie. a…

What Agniveer says is the truth in many rights. We must know that The socalled Hindu dharm..it’s not actually Hindu or sanatan dharm to be precise. Dharm doesnt form in a day nor even in a century. The Dharm that we claim dscendence to, although has distorted totally, was substantiated and matured in Gupta period the most dominant influence by Emperor Chandragupta dwitiya Vikramaditya. The socalled varna system is very advanced distribution of labour to obviate any conflicts or confusion which describes the basic traits with which all humans are born with and which can even be confirmed by jyotish. Now, intially the King ie. Vikaramaditya was akin to God who prevail;ed over all social systems.. so it had vidvan, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra. Its karm based division that doesnt pass on through blood or birth. After the decline of the most powerful empire in history of Bharat and world (ancient) small empires succeded and it was combined with invasions from non Aryan namely Shaka, Huns etc and the Mugals or muslims. the huge upheavel after 800-1200 AD has had the biggest disaster on Bharat including social system. It must be known that most of kshatriyas and socalled brahmans were killed in rampages by muslims and only left were of the Hindus who were not actually socalled brahmans or kashatriya. But only they survived to lay hold the decree on themselves with no super authority to question them. lakhs of temples, gurukuls, varsities wree destroyed, crores were killed or converted so the essence of dharm at that time was decimated. “chachnama” is actualy recorded history of the tyorments of the mugals in their own words. I have the copy of it in partial form. any system wears out with time, the fragments are many a times are remembered as the whole. Our country Bharat or Aryavart has suffered a lot and also the dharm which can better be called Aryadharm… the curse of casteism, untouchability were one of the most indignant faces including submission and mass ignorance. Brahman is the highest order means…

Also plz see Lord Macaulay’s address to british parliament. The one which clearly shows the need of divide and rule policy and which promotes the need of propgandizing Aryan Invasion Theory (Truth or Not?).

Nice and not Nice. !st- clear that those caste are not birth one but a convention of human system, nothing to do with equality 2nd-some people do not falls under these four category like Sramanas,The great Jinas,and Sanyasis. Its easy to see how this system evolved to present day caste system.See- In India even today it is beleived that a Doctor son will be docto, PCS son will be PCS.(Its very true happening right here but since we now live in open globalised world it may not evolve more than that) My mother has always seen Mechanics and Ricksawallas as not much deserving,Why-No work is less or more if it fullfills ones need,they are important too. Its better too look for our present and shape a beautiful future than bothering about The Great Indian history which in turn a Bizzare History where Aryan Invasion is seen as Fact but in outer world its not more than a theory which never got full proof and rock support. Also don’t say those Idologist were Bad They were not, they may have been biased unintentionaly ‘couse of there earlier education and culture were earth is said to form only 2000 years efore christ.

@shabeer You are fool how dare you put blame Mohamad did sex with a child. But Mohamd never did sex with any child less than 16 years old. & Aisa was daughter of Mohamad. Mohamad was a divine personality and he was aware sex with less than 16 years is a sin. You want to denigrate Mohamad. You are Kaffir.

Yes morality depend on time and place, it is perfectly acceptable for a muslim man to marry 4 women/teens but not accpetable in all other religions/cultures even in west. Westeners take it lightly if a girl sleeps with many before marriage, but it is not acceptable to muslims/hindus It is ok for a muslim to kill for blashphemy of muhammad but it is not ok for a budhist/hindu or christian to take life of a person just because some one said budha/krishna/jesus as bad characters. Even in pakistan a pure land for muslims not all who comitted adultery are stoned to death whereas iran wants to implement it.

>>Hinduism hasn’t a static rules and regulation,is it? The ideals/goals of vedas are static, but the deviations and acceptable behaviour by society is never static.

>>who give the new rules and regulation? generally society gives and accepts. for shivaites and lingayats guru gives, for others old text books give, but all morals must confirm to the equality/sacredness/non destructability of jeev atma.

>>there is time different the new and old rules,that way,what the way of salvation about them. The basic rule i.e you should treat others equally never changed. The other rules like polygamy, punishment by the society for deviants changes. The idea of salvation in hinduism is different for different schools of thought. However the hindu goal is not at all like islamic idea of salvation. Hindus do not expect countless virgins/alcholic drinks as muslims do.

There are 33 crores Devi Devtas can you belive, these devi devtas devide all the hindus and after that and each and every devta wants hero and due to this there is no rules and regulation each and every Hindu free to become god, devta and create a Satsang Mandli for their earning soruce. There are thousand of social reforms who hit the hinduism like Guru Nanak Dev, Kabir ji, Ravidas ji, etc. Hindus rules always expolited poor people like shudra and also women.

2)who give the new rules and regulation?

Hindus have lot of books like Ramayna, Geeta , Purans and Samrities, which lot of stories of shudra and women exploiation like, shambuk murder by Rama, Eklavya, Karna exploitation etc. Now when we asked them about such hateful activies, they replied YE TO KISI NE MILAWAT KAR DI HAI, they do not know and reply clearly about their holy books. Brahmins always create new rules and resulation as per their self benefit instead of nation or huminity. Some Hindu told education are for everyone. But brahmins follow manusamriti ask education is totally ban for shudra and female. They exaploited women and shudra lakhs of years since the time of Rama. No hindu knows about the purites of their holy books.

3) there is time different the new and old rules,that way,what the way of salvation about them?

Barahmins always cheated Akshatrya, Vaish and shudras because they have no right of education due to this they cheated laks of years now they become educated and avail few facilites as per their constitution now brahmins ask equalities. Brahmins forefathers stupid and idiet why they not demanded equality when Rama murder the Shambuka and Dronacharya beg thumb from Eklavya. Brahmans always cheated the humanities this is main reason for the generation of thousands of Satsang, new religions and conversion and Bharat become slave

Sir, Now a days handsome and well qualified boys and girls available in each verna may be more or less. If an Hindu or Arya family come ahead and take initiative for inter verna or inter caste marriage from top verna to bottom verna and bottom verna to top verna. A brhamin married her daughter to Shudra verna and then a shudra verna married her daughter to Brahmin verna. Solve all problem and respect each other.

Hindus have faith in the Vedas as “sruthi” or divinely revealed and therefore true for all time. So why aren’t the orthodox Hindus actually practicing what the Vedas teaches? Why aren’t they offering sacrifices of cows, horses etc to the Vedic gods like Indra, Rudra and so on? Why do they not eat beef like the Vedic Aryans did?

Seems like a case of hypocrisy to me. There are no real Hindus left. Those who call themselves Hindus are really practicing a different religion. Call it Puranism, or Saivism, or Tantrism or whatever but don’t call it Vedic Hinduism.

‘chandalan’ and ‘shudra’are equal to street dogs. (Chandokya Upanishath 5:10:7). A reading of the Manusmrithi and the Parasharasmrithi will serve to show that the attitude and conduit adopted towards them was crueler and wicked than that shown to the animals.

Observe the punishment prescribed by the Apasthamba Dharma Sutra:“The Sudra who kills a Brahman must be burnt to death slowly by immersing him thrice in fire. However, if a Sudra is killed by any, it would be sufficient to award one year imprisonment and a fine of twelve cows as penalty.” (As quoted by Krishnananda Swami in ‘The Caste-Wars in India’, P.94)

All the laws in the ManuSmrithi are, in their formulation, based on the caste system. This deplorable tendency is evident throughout the laws which sanctify the position of the Brahman while, at the same time, debase that of the Sudra.Wide disparity exists in the punishment prescribed for a Brahman who commits a crime and the punishment for a Sudra who commits the similar one. Briefly then, these laws were not framed for the whole of humanity; they are meant for a society wherein caste system prevails.

Please put the verse not translation. The verses you have mentioned are not part any scripture. I think you ownself write anything in the name of scripture. If I write Allah is fool & cruel entity (Kuran 5:15), it can not be proved true without mentioning original verse with it. Do you understand.

@Aryavratasth He might have picked the ‘chandalan’ and ‘shudra’ words from a well known verse in gita which says – a realized man will not differentiate between a learned pandit , a chandala, a dog and dog eater. By supressing the sentence upto pandit , abrahamic religions are trying to portray that chandala=dog.

a first class reply my friend,this is the method to escape the truth.i think u r hindu,u have no of veda that i specified there,open it,read it i give the verses no.if not prove the exact veres here,that a morl way of answering……………………..i expecting the valid replay…..

@shabeer >>Chaturvarnyam Mayasrishtam guna karma Vibagusha This is called categorizing people based on their gunas and karma(which influences gunas). There is no mention of birth based caste here >>Shreyan swdarmo viguna para dermal swanushtithal swdarmea nidanam shreya paradarmo bayavaha I will give the interpretation of ramana maharshi( a hindu saint) for this. “swadarma here means abiding in the self and doing our duty without atachment to results” deviating from the natural state causes fear which may be the meaning of paradarmo bayavaha.

Can i ask you why are you trying to write all these verses? A hindu can reject all these verses and still remain a hindu. Hinduism is not like islam where one will be put to death just because a person uttered “I am truth”. Infact many hindu text openly prescribe to reject everything(even a personal god) and find out what they call “THAT”.

>>that means some verses in the veda r created by somone is it? u agree? No what i mean is knowledge of god is not got by reading books or repeating some verses from veda. It should be gained by experiencing, and one of the popular way is to reject everything (neti) which is not you.

@Shabeer : Once you raised the same question, and I have answered you with word by word translation. What the hell are you ? You could not answer my replies. And after a long time you are pasting the same garbage. Are you really want truth ?? This attitude shows your nature. This proves, you are really worried of the truth, and you just cant dare to accept the truth.

@Shabeer, >>but veda and upanishid cantain no of verses against the moralility

Morality is subjective and changes according to time/place. The basic moral rule is “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”. The meaning of the below verse of gita even goes further and ask to consider every living being as equal.

So if you consider something as not accaptable in veda, reject that verse afterall god is the guide of all. hinduism is not a book based religion like islam or bible which condems every non believer to hell.

the Kshatriya his punishment would be fifty coins, if he insults the vaishya it would be twenty five coins and if the Shudra, twelve coins ” (Manu Smrithi 8:267, 268)

Slavery existed in ancient India as a part of the rigid caste system that prevailed here. The caste system which originated as a result of the hegemony of priesthood continued to be an essential part and way of life of Hinduism. It is in the Rig Veda which is accepted as the most important of the Shrutis that we find the first seeds of the concept of caste system. (Purusha verse of the Rig Veda 10:90:12).It was but natural that under the caste system that was based on the reference in the Rig Veda that “the Brahman is created from the head, the Vaishya from the hands and the Sudra from the feet of the Parampurusha”, the Brahman was considered highly and the Sudra of a lowly stature. All the books of Hinduism have only sought to justify the caste system. ============================================================================ SUPPRESS LOWER CAST PEOPLE III:

The Bhagavath Gita, which is known to be the book of shruthi of modern Hinduism, has itself said: “Chaturvarnyam Mayasrishtam guna karma Vibagusha ” (4:13). this means that, “I have created the four castes according to the division of their deeds.” It was natural then that the one who was created from the feet of God was destined to a life of foot-service alone. Indeed, it was believed that the sudra was specially created for the very purpose of service alone. The religious scriptures had taught that one is born of a lower caste owing to the sins of an earlier life and that if one is to attain salvation at least in the next life, he is to render service to those of the higher castes and employ himself in keeping them satisfied in this life.“Shreyan swdarmo viguna para dermal swanushtithal swdarmea nidanam shreya paradarmo bayavaha” (bagavath geetha 3:35). The Chandoupanishad has compared those of the lower caste to pigs And dogs. From the Upanishath we can understand that…

beat him with scourge. if he steal kill him(punishment of Brahmin only bind his eye with cloth one or two hours).if he have desire to sexual affection with Brahmin girl, first cut his sexual organ, then capture his asset, then kill him. If he hearing the Veda captures him, cut the Tongue, pour the melted lead to his ear. ” (Swami krishnanada: aparthed system in India page 93-95)

NB:These verses indicate that ‘Brahmin’ is not belongs to his ‘karma’, it belongs to his ‘janma’.we can see from Upanishad “born Brahmin yoni” and “born shudra yoni”. =========================================================================== SUPPRESS LOWER CAST PEOPLE II:

Hindu religious scriptures, however, do give out the call to violence and injustice. For instance, in the Kaushithaki Brahmanopanishad Indran is quoted as saying, “Na’Mathravadena na Pithravadena nasthayena na broona hathys nasya paapam chana chakrasho mukaneelam vetheethi (3:1) (Even if my people were to kill their mother and father; even if they were to steal and to practice infanticide; even if they were to commit such sins, they are to feel no remorse. Their faces should never be down-cast)

During the period of Ramayana Brahmin never died their lives. A Brahmin visits the palace of Rama; his complaint was that his son died. Raman discuss his pundit acharya,they know that a shudra(Shambukan)Penance for getting heven.Raman cut his head at mean time Brahmin boy got his life.

What we saw from the story is Raman was an ideal person?

There is nothing that is despicable in the legal prescription Of the Qur’an. However, in some of the other religious scriptures there is a clear distinction between a person of a higher caste and another of a lower caste. For example, consider the punishment prescribed by the Manu Smrithi for insult and abuse: “ The punishment for the Kshatriya who insults the Brahman is one hundred coins; for the Vaishya it will be two hundred coins and for the Shudra it will be the whip. If the Brahman were to insult the…

“If they (shudra) have any asset, Brahmin must forcefully recapture the entire asset from shudra”

“If shudra talk against the Brahmin suddenly cut his Tongue, if he try to beat (action is enough) to Brahmin by his hand or leg, Brahmin suddenly cut that (hand or leg) body part as soon as possible “(manusmrithi 8:279-283)

golwaker says about manusmrithi “this is the social law that world ever and never saw like that. None of principle likes it.” (Golwaker: From the Red fort grounds)

“When a Brahmin killed the shudra jailed him one year and 12 cow penalty. But in case of shruda killed the Brahmin punishment was different killed him three short period with fire” (gowthama dharmasuthram Ibid page-95)

“The Hindu Veda and Upanishath never give permission to shudra, women and other low cast Hindu, to prey temple and study the Veda and science” (Indian Express 4-4-1988)

“If a shudra walking with Brahmin, beat him with scourge. if he steal kill him(punishment of Brahmin only bind his eye with cloth one or two hours).if he have desire to sexual affection with Brahmin girl,…

Yajurved 20.17: Whatever crime we have committed against my village, forest or committee; whatever crime we have committed through our organs, whatever crime we have committed against Shudras and Vaishyas, whatever crime we have done in matters of Dharma, kindly forgive us relieve us from the tendency of the same.

Respected Agniveerji, Thanks for the very inspiring website about our Dharma. 1) The above mentioned verse mention crime against shudras. Does that mean there was heirchy and curbing mindset even during vedic times. 2) What was the need of the varnas, its not of any benificial atleast in the current era. 3) Did the sages who wrote vedas had no insight about the future implications of these varnas. 4) Whats the solution? 5) Whats your say about reservation?

Our saints seemed to have insight about evrything apart from the caste sysytem. They have got evrything right, but for this one varnas.

This shows the guilt complex of the persons praying. It shows that the persons praying are different from Shudras and Vaisyas. They could be Brahmins or Kshatriyas or some other groups we don’t know. But they realize that they have committed some crimes against Shudras and Vaisyas and they ask for forgiveness from the (supposed) Almighty. So one has to deeply think as to what crimes they had committed or could have committed against Shudras and Vyshyas and who are they? This is my reading of this verse or saying as posted herein.

This comment addresses the treatment of shudras in the Vedas and discusses the 17 mantras that have the word shudra in them. Historically, Hindu (Arya) society was divided into four separate groups (varna) namely brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra. Shudras included persons who were laborers; those who were neither educated nor skilled and performed work for the other groups. Originally, there were no untouchables; however, eventually those members of the shudra group who performed the most unpleasant tasks, such as cleaning the latrines or cremating the dead, became designated as such. The shudras belonged to the bottom rung of the society and were often treated with disdain. This was justified on the basis of the Hindu scriptures and its origin was and continues to be attributed to the Vedas. All Hindus regard Vedas as the root scriptures of their beliefs.

By the 8th century CE, the accepted belief in Hindu society was that Vedas were so sacred that only brahmins, kshatriyas, or vaishyas were eligible to learn them. The Shudras were denied the opportunity to hear or learn Veda mantras and if they persisted, they could suffer severe punishment e.g. the pouring of molten lead into their ears (athāsya vedamupashrnvatastrapujatubhyam shrotrapratipoornam Shankara Brahamsutrabhashya 1:3:38; Gautam Dharma Sutra 2:3:4). Shankracharya, Ramanuja and others supported this belief and the practice of denying Vedas to the shudras remained the acceptable norm and faith in Hindu society until the 19th century CE.

Yathemām vācham kalyānim āvadāni janebhyah. Brahma-rājanyābhyām shudrāya cha aryāya cha svāya cha aranāya cha. (Yajur Veda 26:2). The message here is that the Veda mantras are for the welfare and prosperity of all human beings including brahmins, rulers, shudras or vaishyas, as well as whether they are our kin or strangers.

Priyam mā darbh kranu brahmrājānyabhyam shudrāya cha aryāya cha. Yasmai cha kāmyāmahe sarvasmai cha vipashyate. (Atharva Veda 19:32:8). Lord, you are darbh—the destroyer of the wicked enemies. Make me dear to the learned, rulers, shudras, vaishyas and those whom we desire and all those who have different outlook.

Yadgrāme yadaranye yatsabhāyām yadindriye. Yachchhudre yadarye yadenashchkramā vayam yadekasyādhi dharmani tasyāvayajanasmasi. ( Yajur veda 20:17). Lord, whatever sins we may have committed in the villages, in the forest, in meetings, against the shudras or vaishya, against any aspect of dharma, may you help us overcome our sins or shortcomings.

Brāhmanoasya mukhmāsid bāhū rājanyah krtah. Madhyam tadasya yad vaishyah padbhyām shūdro ajāyata. (Atharva Veda 19:6:6). The brahmin is His (Supreme Person’s, Lord’s,) mouth, the raja is His two arms. The vaishya is His middle (abdomen, belly); the shudra is born of His two feet.

This mantra is usually attributed as the basis of disdain for the shudras because it states shudra is born of Lord’s two feet. Let us look at the symbolism used in this mantra while describing the Supreme Person and varnas. Mouth is for talking, implying that learned persons are the spokesperson for the Lord or Society. Mouth is also the entry point for food, it makes sure that food is of good quality, but it does not hoard it, instead it passes food on to the abdomen (vaishya). The arms are our means of doing work and protecting ourselves. They help us get food but they again do not hoard it, instead they pass food on to the abdomen. Abdomen (vaishya) is for digesting the food (or wealth), and distributing the digested food (wealth) to all parts of the body (or society) to provide them with energy to do their work, but not to hoard it in the abdomen. A thin waist is better than a big potbelly as far health is concerned—obesity causes disease. The feet (shudra) support the body (or society). The labor of the shudras is what supports all societies. Feet or legs are integral components of the body, they support the body and help it move; we do not cut them off. A footless body can not move easily. Most Hindu devotional bhajans (songs) speak of praying at the Lord’s feet not at his head or mouth. The temple priest gives Prasād of Charnāmrit-food that has touched the feet (not head) of the moorti (icon) of the Lord.

Brāhmanoasya mukhmāsid bāhū rājanyah krtah. Ūrū tadasya yad vaishyah padbhyām shūdro ajāyata. (Rig Veda 10:90:12, and Yajur Veda 31:11). This mantra essentially states the same as the previous mantra except at the beginning of the second line word Ūrū which means large, thighs or abdomen has replaced word Madhyam (middle, abdomen) in the previous mantra.

In the remaining nine mantras which contain the word shudra, the shudras are treated with due respect as the other varnas. Because of the space limitation, these mantras are not described here further but will be discussed later.

Until the 19th century CE, hereditary brahmins were considered the learned and controlled learning among all classes of Hindu society for over two thousand years. The Brahmins, with the support of the ruling classes, successfully used selective scriptures and unscrupulous interpretations of earlier scriptures along with the pretext of divine religious authority to deny shudras the opportunity of learning, thereby preventing them to improve their social status in Hindu society.

In the 1840’s Mahatma Jotiba (Jotirao) Phule became an outspoken advocate for the rights of shudras on the moral grounds of equality. He started a school for shudra girls to emphasize this concept of equality. Brahmins heavily criticized these actions of Phule as being against teachings of Hindu scriptures. Since Phule was not well versed in scriptures he could not provide an adequate scriptural defense. Beginning in the 1870’s Swami Dayanand Saraswati, a learned Brahmin, used the authority of the Vedas to challenge the religious authority of the brahmins and the misdirected faith of Hindus in what he considered to be wrong interpretations of the scriptures. In his books and lectures, Swami Dayanand promoted the idea that scriptures and beliefs that are against God’s benevolence for all, or are against the teachings of the Vedas should be rejected. He encouraged all varnas of the Hindu society including shudras to learn Vedas and to have faith in truth alone. Fifty years later Mahatma Gandhi championed the rights of untouchables. Following the independence of India, equal rights for all varnas became the law, even though untouchability is still practiced in many parts of India.

Although the unfair treatment of shudras in Hindu society is often attributed to the Vedas, in fact it can be ascribed to later prejudicial Hindu scriptures as well as the unscrupulous interpretation of the earlier scriptures.

The BIGGEST LIE MUSLIM TELL is there is no caste system in their religion and PERVERT PSEUDO HISTORIAN ROMILA THAPAR’S also lied that Islamic Invasion also helped in mellowing down the effects of caste system Infact it become strong after Islamic Invasion. Ashraf muslims consider themselves superior to lower caste Ajlaf Muslims and Arzal Muslims are considered untouchables. Pakistan is more casteist than India that is proven by infamous Mukhtaran Mai gang rape case by upper caste muslims and many other cases like this. Salman Taseer killing has also casteist touches because Mullahs cannot digest a man from business community challenge the power of clergy . In Pakistan untoucability is practiced even in urban areas the shias, ahmediyas, Hindus are considered untouchables and Sunni Muslims do not share their food with them.

For all the Ambedkar Fans, the bad news is that the man has been thoroughly Exposed in the classical work of Arun Shourie in his book– “Worshiping False Gods.” Every myth regarding this “great” man has been busted with -DOCUMENTARY- Evidence. A must read… Dear Brother Sameer, these historians of our country are the biggest traitors, they have DESTROYED AND RUINED OUR HISTORY. Their is one D.N. Jha -from the stable of communist perverts who wrote a whole book asserting that eating BEEF (Cow’s flesh) had been a norm in India since “time-immemorial” and that it was only after 19th century that people like Swami Dayanand stood against this “ancient” practice!!! Imagine the brazenness of these retarded “self-styled intellectuals”. This fellow does not see Lord Krishna, whose love for cows is infinite!! There are many more of his kind in their community, who “unfortunately” are burdened with writing history TEXT-BOOKS for Young Children!!!!!!!!!

कृषिगौरक्ष्यवाणिज्यं वैश्यकर्म स्वभावजम्। परिचर्यात्मकं कर्म शूद्रस्यापि स्वभावजम्॥१८-४४॥ Agriculture, rearing of cows and honest exchange of merchandise — these constitute the natural duty of a Vaisya (a member of the trading class); and service of the other classes is the natural duty even of a sudra (a member of the labouring class). (BG – 18.44) . loed krishna on duties of vaishya..[:)]

Pratap Brother I am not a fan of BR Ambedkar, Muslims have penchant to quote BR Ambedkar regarding Hindu Caste System so I am giving them their own medicine that Ambedkar himself has said that Muslim Caste System is worse than Hindu Caste System. Yes you are very correct communist historians are fifth column communities except in islamic countries these communist historians use tactics of disinformation in their Target country so that people feel inferior about their national identity and adopt communist identity.

Beef eating stoped in 19th century ???????????? must be jocking to light down the mood. Even in Vedic a milking cow was agahan can not be killed only bulls and non milking cows were. Vedas hailed people who were vegetarians, the sramanas and the atheist too. Cow eating stoped even before buddha (Jinas have been credited) mostly because it prooved soooooo profitable live and also because Jinas.

My opinion is caste system has evolved as a historical process due to trade associations. These trade associations were the centres of specialization in various trades as there were no training institutes in the way they exist today. It was easy for a young member of a family to learn the trade skills from the other elder members. Slowly, these trade associations make their own rules for fostering these skills but in course of time even the marital relations were being established with the members of the same trade associations. This marital relationship with another member of the same trade facilitated the incoming of further skilled person in the same trade. In course of time these rules were made strict and gave birth to castes. That’s the reason we see all the castes attached with certain occupation such as goldsmith, blacksmith, washerman, milkman, carpenter etc. It’s preposterous to think that one fine morning a Brahman woke up and promulgated his own list of castes and the king implemented it throughout the Aryavarta. Even today the castes are evolving. For example, the castes of politicians and industrialists and they are going to the top most echelon of the social order.Of course, we need to do a lot more research.

There can be many other interesting point of views. However, Caste-ism: how it evolved, is one amongst several other complex questions. In my opinion, Universities/research institutes are the best places to study it. And this must be extensively promoted. However, open debates at any public forum does create awareness.

If we try to find out any positivity out of Caste based division in the society. In my opinion, it has helped to some extent for newly wed couple to adjust easily in each others family. Because, people of different castes does tend of have slightly different living styles and to some extent beliefs as well.

But in modern times, the concept of joint-family system is already vanishing at fast pace. Even in villages, its hard to find large joint families these days. Further due to job commitments or for education purposes, younger generation usually move out of their native place. This trend is very vividly visible. Other sources like Bollywood, TV, internet etc. is slowly working towards creating a mix of culture (without getting noticed). All this will continuously work towards diluting any such rigid customs in the future . Thus the only advantage that I could possibly think of will also do away in near future. In fact, I believe over a period of next few decades caste-ism will definitely loose its grip on the society.

Apart from the above mentioned minor positivity, which itself is doing away very rapidly, Caste-ism is a menace to the society.As a progressive and educated society it is expected that our elected politicians must work cohesively with the communities (nation wide) to abolish Caste-ism completely. And I am quite sure, if our politicians/government shows some will in committing itself for this purpose, caste-ism can become a remote history in few generations (between 50-100 years).

Unfortunately, majority politicians in modern day Bhartiye politics are extremely weak and short-sighted. They do not have confidence in their abilities to win elections by raising other issues. Likes of Mayawat, Mulayam and Laloo firmly believe that Caste based political agenda is the only center point to win them Chief ministers kursi. These types of politicians wants to keep this menace alive longer. Although it has been turning out true for them so far, but it won’t last long.

@VikramAditya I liked your post indeed.. but ‘Bollywood, TV, internet etc. ‘ these are the biggest disgrace on India in my opinion. Because of these many Indians are busy in their self sensual enjoyments, without caring about neighbours sorrows..

I don’t want to get into illegal relationships and their effects..

Already india is devoid of purity of husband & wife relations. I fear that sooner mother’s love will be scarce in mother India as west..

According to me when one is born he is identified as male or female and all other identifications are society enforced like nationality, religion and cast group. When one has the right to change his nationality if he settle in other country, when one has the right to change his religion as per his choice, WHY NOT ALLOW CHANGE OF CAST GROUP?

Nationality is a general identification based on the birth place. Even for changing the nationality in a foreign land one has to full fill so many conditions and also to wait for long time to get the changed citizenship. It is not something like dipping you in bath tub, putting a cross dollar in the neck and saying from to-day you are a Christian. The majority becomes minority and he is eligible for all the minority benefits. Is it logic? Cast & religion are based on who gave birth to you and it is permanent and can not be changed. If change of religion is justifiable by law then change of cast group is also justifiable. I am willing change my cast group and want to announce that I am converted to dalit community and except the government to provide all the reservation benefit. Is it OK ????????????

Reservation has nothing to do with Caste-System, they (women, SC) were so suppressed so to up lift them the reservation is introduced… But even Ambedkar wanted it to remove after specific time.. Other wise it will be reason to hold on with this stupid birth based caste system.. You are talking about nationality, its utterly mistaken by you.. even charley chplin knew it long back, this was created by selfish economists… who wanted to up-hold imperialism with national boundaries and currency manipulations.. (similar to the birth-based caste system) FYI: I know many Raos, Reddys or so called brahmins & kshatriays hold fake SC caste certificate for reservation..

As advaita vedanta says no barriors buddy.. even I believe male/female differenciation is invalied on spiritual plane..

Varna system is a universal phenomenon and existed throughout the world. Swami Vivekananda also confirms this in his writings about the world historic events. Only in India we have given a specific name for the Varnas & framed certain set of rules. (Spiritual advisors or Gurus, warrior class or ruling class, business class and working class) But this system is vanished everywhere including in India to-day. Now every body belongs to working class only.

Like Varna system cast system is also existing everywhere throughout the world. But except in India other countries restricted this within that group and kept this classification away from society and Government. Cast classification are self made by a group of people based on the place where they lived, work they do, religious customs and tradition they followed, mannerisms they practice within their family groups, annual prayer to their hereditary deity etc., They meet during the religious functions and family functions and exchange their well being. Identification of suitable boys and girls within their group for marriages. The group village chief will give rulings for any dispute. For severe crime the person is debarred from the community. It is a greatest shame in those days and they loose respect in society. It is self sufficient and self controlled system as long as it is separated from society and Government. Hindu society has got a common worship place and burial ground. Where as in the cast less Abrahamic cult they have separate worship places and burial grounds for different groups.

Varna system collapsed in India during Muslim invasion and there were only a few cast groups till the arrival of British rulers. Due to divide and rule policy of British this cast system given entry into the society and Government. A well planned and planted discriminative attitude sowed by them grown up to-day beyond controllable limit due wrong reservation policies and the full benefactor is politicians even to-day.

Whatever cast discrimination or atrocities committed on dalit in India is very negligible and much harmless. Only the politicians and media are exaggerating for publicity and political gain. When compared to the atrocities committed by the Abrahamic cult throughout the world in the name of religion, racism, slavery, witch haunt, jihad, inquisitions, colonization etc., shows voluminous historic record killing crores and crores of people, destroying their customs and culture. Their venomous mind set to exploit the world is not changed till to-day. Both are applying different types of strategies every where through back door and creating unrest for mankind. Hence cast discrimination in India is a negligible factor to be ignored. This will vanish once the reservation quota system is removed. Introduction of creamy layer system definitely helps to eradicate the so called cast discrimination if at all any thing is existing. Politicians are finding difficulties to get political gains through cast divisions. Hence started appeasing minorities

In fact the biggest unfortunate crime in India is minoritisms. Every politician is exploiting in the disguise of minortism and cheating the majority in-turn looting the countries wealth, creating unrest everywhere. This is worst than the cast discrimination and the minority identification to be abolished immediately.

There was no caste system in ancient India during the Ramayana or Mahabharata period.It was just that some sections of vedic civilisation were called as Mlecchas or Sudras who did follow vedic rituals thats all.But Mackualay was searching for a small point to capitalize and divide India on basis of caste system which would make it easy for British rule.Hence the western historians propogated the ancient hoax of caste system practiced in ancient India.

SSS you are the biggest Jerk I have ever seen on one side you say you hate Brahmins and on other side you worship MAHABRAHMIN RAVANA (Ravana was called Mahabrahmin) you pakistani.

I think you who has forgotten the story of Mahabharata the prime minister of Hastinapur and Indraprastha was VIDUR who was a DASI PUTRA and LORD KRISHNA was from lower caste. So there is no Caste System in Mahabharata.

Bhrahman means narrator of knowledge or Vedas ,Khatriya means worrier ,Vishya means Business class and Shudra means Owner of land. Four verna means Knowledge,sword,money and ownership of land should not be possessed by an individual at a time.

Chanakya was brahmin while Chandra gupta was not,Amatya Rakshas was brahmin while Parmananda(evil king) was sudra.Why only Brahmins were protrayed as most wicked.If we look even on post vedic and pre buddhist we will see that they were most poor, was not allowed to own land, forbidden to do agricultue, can not ask gold or aspect favour from ruling class,and were just made to live on fruits and grains given by others.Only when people started thinking that education is better than warfare they gain respect. Also Sadhus and Sanyasies were never brahmins.

Perfect Kapil. When someone writes stuff using quotes then he can always leave the bad parts. If caste system was not even there why was a Karna from Mahabarath so humiliated by all the great people in the courts of Hastinapura by the "good hearted" pandavas. More importantly what is that Arya samaj all about? provoking division by projecting Aryans were superior than than the dravidians and other natives?? or is it something that was started to restore the brahmin superiority???

1. Do you have any proof that the story of Mahabharat you read today is what actually happened 6000 years ago and there has been no changes in the text? 2. Do you have any proof to claim that whatever happened during Mahabharat era was strictly as per Vedas? 3. Can you cite a single mantra from Vedas that justify birth-based caste-system? 4. Have you even read any Arya Samaj text ever? Can you cite one single line from any Arya Samaj text which project Aryans as superior to Dravidians? 5. Do you even know the meaning of Arya? 6. Do you know meaning of Brahmin and do you know how it is defined in Vedas and Arya literature?

Your hatred against Vedas prove that either you are in league of Jaichand or Ghori. In either case, you deserve the same treatment from all who believe in reason and facts. It is so interesting that no one could provide a single fact to counter any fact in all the articles on Agniveer site and have merely come up with these spiteful comments!

1. Do you have any proof that the story of Mahabharat you read today is what actually happened 6000 years ago and there has been no changes in the text? 2. Do you have any proof to claim that whatever happened during Mahabharat era was strictly as per Vedas? 3. Can you cite a single mantra from Vedas that justify birth-based caste-system? 4. Have you even read any Arya Samaj text ever? Can you cite one single line from any Arya Samaj text which project Aryans as superior to Dravidians? 5. Do you even know the meaning of Arya? 6. Do you know meaning of Brahmin and do you know how it is defined in Vedas and Arya literature? Your hatred against Vedas prove that either you are in league of Jaichand or Ghori. In either case, you deserve the same treatment from all who believe in reason and facts. It is so interesting that no one could provide a single fact to counter any fact in all the articles on Agniveer site and have merely come up with these spiteful comments! Angira AEB

1. Do you have any proof that the story of Mahabharat you read today is what actually happened 6000 years ago and there has been no changes in the text? SIR, EXCEPT BOOKS AND TEXT THERE IS NO PROOF IF ANY HISTORY THAT IS FALSE OR TRUE, YOU SEE GOD, UR FATHER SEE GOD, UR GRANDFATHER SEE GOD, NO BODY SEE THE GOD BUT EVERY BELIEVE GOD IS SOMETHING WITHOUT ANY PROOF. THERE IS ALSO NO PROOF ABOUT VEDA AND THERI ORIGINALITY AND PUREITY.

3. Can you cite a single mantra from Vedas that justify birth-based caste-system? SIR, HAVE ANY MANTRA IN VEDA WHO FINISH CORRUPTION, POORTY, ILLETRACY INEQUALITY FROM INDIA AND CAN WE GET BLACK MONEY FROM SWISS BANK THRU ANY MANTRA, IF VEDA SOLVE OUR PROBLEM THEN WE BELIEVE OTHERWISE BOTH ARE PROOFLESS.

5. Do you even know the meaning of Arya? SIR, MEANING OF ARYA IS NOT GREATER THAN THE MEANING OF HUMANITY, ALL HUMANBEING RESPECT THE HUMANITY THEN THERE IS NO NEED TO KNOW THE MENING OF ARYA. 6. Do you know meaning of Brahmin and do you know how it is defined in Vedas and Arya literature? SIR, VEDAS BRAHMIN MEANING YOU KNOW BUT HISTORY PROVES THAT WHO DIVIDE THE HUMANITY AND RULE IS CALLED BRAHAMIN, PLEASE SEE UR SORRUDING IN BHARAT.

We are not league of Jaichand or Ghori. SIR HAVE YOU ANY PROOF OF JAI CHAND AND GAURI , THIS SI ALSO A STORY IN BOOKS IN THE SHAPE OF TEXT LIKE RAMAMAYNA AND MAHABHARTA, THEN WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT JAI CHAND AND GAURI, THIS IS NOT FARE, I THINK YOU WANT TO PROVE HATHI KE DANT KHANE KE AUR DIKHANE KE AUR.

Dalbir Sir, 1.UNESCO’s recognises Vedas as the oldest corpus of poetry, philosophy and myth transmitted orally generation by generation. Vedas were recited using a special method of recitation which is akin to modern error correction and detection codes. This feature has allowed it to be passed on from generation to generation for many millennia without the introduction of errors. 3. Yes, I would mention just one mantra, Satyamev Jayate. It means, Truth always triumphs. If people could affix this mantra completely in their minds then we would never face the problem of corruption. 5.Yes, I agree that the meaning of Arya is not greater than humanity but is certainly helpful for it. Arya means a noble person. If all of humanity could become Aryas(nobles) then the world would certainly be a better place. 6.Indian history certainly proves that the Britishers, Mughals did divide and rule, not Brahmins as they were not the ruling class. Kshatriyas were the ruling class.

Sir, A sub agency of UNESCO’s also publish three survey reports during the last 4-3 month regarding Human Capital, Social security and social service. In these reports our neighbour countries are far far better then Aryans and that countries are Bangla Desh, Bhutan, Pakistan, Nepal and Sri Lanka. Nobality cannot be seen and talking about nobal person. Developed countires do not know about VEDA and their mantra they are more honest and nobal then us why not we. If people could affix this mantra completely in their minds then we would never face the problem of corruption Can you affix this mantra in the mind of Hindu or Aryana MLAs/MPs/Business community/Public dealing officials, never. No body cannot believe it. Vo vedo ko Dho rahe hai maan nhi rahe. Good things liked by everybody, if vedas are good then accept all hindus. But now a days only few people see here. Indian history certainly proves that the Britishers, Mughals did divide and rule, not Brahmins as they were not the ruling class. Kshatriyas were the ruling class. You are 100% wrong if brahmins unit all then nobody have dare to attack on us, we are divided by Brahmins and resulting everyone attack of us. First four division in verna and after that thousands of division in castes. Verna and caste system available before the Mughals and Britisher everybody know.

Were caste equations always as bad as they are today? Not quite. There were always castes but they were not backward.

A noted Gandhian, Dharampal visited British & Indian archives and reproduced reports of Surveys undertaken by the British in Bengal, Punjab and Madras Presidency (1800-1830). According to Collectors reports reviewed by Governor Sir Thomas Munro on 10/3/1826, of the 30,211 male school students in Madras Presidency 20% were Brahmins and Chettris, 9% were Vaishyas,50% were Sudras, 6% were Muslims and others were 15%. Madras Presidency then consisted of areas that fall in modern day Tamil Nadu, A.P, Orissa, Kerala and Karnataka. Another report by J Dent, Secretary, Fort Geroge dated 21/2/1825 stated that out of 1,88,680 scholars in all collectorates of Madras Presidency Brahmins were 23% while Sudras constituted 45%.

Startling as it may sound, these percentages establish that Sudras not Brahmins comprised the majority of students and scholars. How & Why do the Backward Classes find themselves in the situation they are today?

Before British rule, traditionally, educational institutions were funded by revenue contributions made by the community and State. About one third of the total revenue (from agriculture & sea ports) was assigned for the requirements of social & cultural infrastructure (including education). This system stayed mainly intact through all previous political turmoils. The British, however, increased the quantum of land revenue and adversely changed the terms of payment for the community. They centralized collection of revenue, leaving hardly any revenue to pay for social and cultural infrastructure.

Further, the means of the manufacturing classes (small scale enterprises or SME in today’s parlance) were greatly diminished by the introduction of European goods. Craftsmen especially those engaged in the making of cloth, manufacture and mining of metals, construction work were through fiscal and other devices reduced to a state of homelessness.

Sapped for funds, educational institutions and manufacturing classes became history, leading to grave consequences. One, it obliterated literacy and knowledge amongst the Indian people. Two, it destroyed the Indian social balance in which, traditionally, persons from all sections of society appear to have received a significant degree of schooling. Three, this destruction along with economic plunder led to great deterioration in the status, socio-economic conditions and personal dignity of those, now known as scheduled castes; and to a lesser degree, that of the vast peasant majority encompassed by the term ‘backward castes’.

From about the end of the 19th century, various factors began to attempt a reversal of the results of British policy. This led to what are now known as backward caste movements. The manner, in which their objectives are presented however, seems to suggest that the ‘backward’ status they are struggling against is some ancient phenomenon. In reality, however, their cultural and economic backwardness (as distinct from their ritualistic status on specific occasions) is post 1800, and what basically all such movements are attempting to achieve is the restoration of the position, status, and rights of these peoples prior to 1800.

Dharampal wrote in ‘Rediscovering India’,“For the British, as perhaps for some others before them, caste has been a great obstacle, in fact, an unmitigated evil not because the British believed in casteless ness or subscribed to non-hierarchical system but because it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance more difficult”.

The interest in caste peaked around 1891 when the census came out with what were termed as Index of Castes. The word ‘caste’ is of Spanish origin and fails to capture the meaning of the Indian term,“jati,” which more properly translated as “community.” Jati in traditional India promoted and preserved diversity and multiculturalism by allotting every jati a particular space and role in society so that no jati would be appropriated or dominated by another. America, which has long glorified the ideal of a “melting pot” of one assimilated culture, is now coming to see the value of the “salad bowl” model, in which different cultures co-exist in harmony. The epitome of this model was the Indian jati system, revealing that our ancient practices are relevant to the modern world. Moreover, the jati system was integral to the survival of the Indian nation: in Swami Vivekananda’s words:“Caste is an imperfect institution no doubt. But if it had not been for caste, you would have had no Sanskrit books to study. This caste made walls, around which all sorts of invasions rolled and surged but found it impossible to breakthrough.”

The status based mis representation was introduced later to abuse hinduism. Caste system is based upon the Job you take – Your Karma (Thoughts, speech and Deeds). Many people moved up and down the caste system on the basis of their Karma.

Both Valmiki and Vyasa, who wrote the Ramayana and Mahabharatha, belonged to the lower castes. Veda Vyasa who put order to our Vedas was a sudra. The sage Vasishtha was a shudra and he became sage later in life. One of the hymns from the Rg Veda states that one's caste is not determined by that of one's family or birth. "I am a sage, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn." -Rg Veda 9.112.3

Performance of his duty as a service to the lord almighty, purifies a human being and gives him reward – here on this earth and hereafter as well. Duty of a serviceman is to serve his company with all his best of abilities. There is no force in it. Consider yourself not a servant of a human – but a servant of God/Allah. Through practice and experience and skill in his duty, he will be purified. He will be rewarded by God in his material possesions – here in earth and also beyond it.

Caste system is as follows: ============================ These are four designations which a human is naturally born with. Teacher,soldier,tradesman and serviceman(or employee). These are four thinking hats. This is the way our thought process will turn in regular life. If I want, I can learn good techniques and improve my thoughts and status as well.

For example, I am born to a soldier(kshatriya) father but my varna is Shudra(employee). Does this mean my father started hating me? No. My younger brother is born in teacher(brahman) varna. So performing my service with diligence will bless me here and hereafter. While living in this world – this is the pattern in which my thougths will flow.

If you provide me your Name,place of birth,date and time of birth, I can predict how your thinking will be in general life. You can always learn and improve your thoughts,speech and deeds and improve your life here and hereafter: 1) Brahmin Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces is considered Brahmin by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology . 2) Kshatriya Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Aries or Leo or Sagittarius is considered Kshatriya by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology. 3) Vaishya Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Taurus or Virgo or Capricorn is considered Vaishya by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology. 4) Shudra Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Gemini or Libra

Horroscope is an important part of hinduism and as a child is born the very first thing is to get the horroscope. In earlier times, people were able to get the complete information about past lives also – so you can know why you were born as in your varna and how can you improve yourself – here and hereafter.

The brahmin became the head of the Purusha. The Kashatriya became its arms. The Vaisya its torso and the sudra its legs.

The standard interpretation is that of the brahman 'becoming' the head of the Purusha (not 'springing up from' as given by European mischief indologists). The previous mantra 12 in purusha suktam says

" when the Purusha was sacrificed( vyadadhu:) , into what forms he was made ? What became of His head ? What became of his face ? What is said of His Arms ? What are said of His Thighs and feet ?"

So the verse 13, is a continuation of the 'what became of ' line of enquiry .

The mantra 13 (which is being used by anti Hindus and all and sundry to denigrate the Varna system) is in fact a straightforward hymn on the nature of classification of people on naturally existing principles.

As regards the Gita: Krishna says in Chapter 4, sloka 13,

chAturvarnyam mayA srushtam guna karma vibhAgasha: |

The four characteristics which classify people based on character (attitude) and Action are created by me.

This is the correct meaning. Krishna says here 'varnyam' (characteristics) and not 'varnam' (classification). Look at the missing 'y'

And lastly I come to the Jati। This is the achilles' heel of our country in general and our religion in particular. You will be surprised to learn that the Jati classification was made during the 3 rd to 10 th century when Buddhism died out and the returnees made out sects for themselves in Hinduism. But here again, the Jati is different from 'caste' as coined by the British.

@munmunsarma Why don’t you have 2ndlook at http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/ According to one of its articles it was British who made Brahmins vs lowcaste. We have many shudras who became Brahmins and written epics like Ramayan,Mahabharata,etc. Vishwamitra was Kshatriya became Maharshi(Brahmin) and his sons were Shudras. 1000 year rule by “Desert bloc” has manipulated our customs so much that we forgot that once upon a time we practiced absolute free speech.

If Ambedkar instead of making false claim that Arya Samajis are wrong , if he had gained knowledge from the books of Maharshi Dayanand Saraswati and spreaded Mahashi's knowledge(which is true forever) everywhere, then probably casteism would have stopped at that time itself and we could have seen the "Golden Era of Vedic Culture " once again!!

Brother, I do not blame Ambedkar completely for this. He was quite in line with Arya Samaj ideology in principle. His initial writings depict the same. But as time progressed, he had developed an image as a Dalit leader. Thus he became a prisoner of this image, and feared that he would lose his different identity and political following if he agreed to that. He knew that Manu Smriti is full of adulterations and plethora of shlokas in Manu Smriti clearly proclaim equal rights of Shudras, refusal of birth-based discrimination and tougher punishments for non-Shudras. He knew that this is in line with Vedas. But he continued his biased diatribe against Vedas and Vedic legends. This was partially due to his false image and followership and partially due to a significant number of so-called upper caste people trying to retain their birth-based supremacy. Had Ambedkar sided with Arya Samaj, or had at least tried to be genuine to best of his knowledge, this divisive casteism would have been extinct by now. Nonetheless, I appreciate Ambedkar for his dalit-upliftment efforts even though he failed to provide a true direction to this movement due to his prejudices.

"Nonetheless, I appreciate Ambedkar for his dalit-upliftment efforts even though he failed to provide a true direction to this movement due to his prejudices." No. Actually, he rubbished the Aryan Invasion Theory and provided a true direction to the movement. He wanted Dalits to get this AIT out of their heads so that they can be properly integrated in hindu society. Todays Dalits dont read hios books and simply parrot the AIT as taught to them by political v vested interests.

I agree on this point. He was completely against Invasion Theory. And his initial writings were close to Vedic view. But he digressed later a bit. For example, he continued to condemn Manu instead of acknowledging that the controversial verses were clearly adulterated. Many Arya Samaj leaders did gave him this evidence, and perhaps he admitted to it on a few occasions, but he continued his diatribe against Manu, and not only present Manu Smriti. Similarly, he well knew about adulteration of Ramayan and that Uttar Ramayan is completely fake. He also knew the truth of Purans. But he used these to write in detail to try to prove that Ram and Krishna were illegitimate, drunkards, womanizers and what not. I understand that his hatred was against casteist forces. But he drifted so much in his bias that ultimately he became a Buddhist, rejecting Vedas and Vedic concepts.

It also shows how biased was Ambedkar against Vedas, despite having no knowledge of Sanskrit and knowing very well about intentions of western indologists on whom he based his conclusions. Perhaps he got bit to carried away with his hatred.

@anand ‘Todays Dalits’ who are they??? It might be you.. and who are ‘todays other varnas’?? It is foolish to finger at one and say he is this varna, and act as learned of Vedas or non-biased philosophy..

@Tamil great work buddy… But Adi Shankara was Vedantist.. isn’t he? And I am not sure about he killing buddist monks..

@agniveer honestly you (none) of you replied to Tamil as learned people; some showed up with again their shit here.. Vedas the Truth blah blah.. I don’t want to see it in articles but in the behaviour of commentors also.. till then I don’t consider none of you as believer of humanity, equality forget about understanding Vedas..

I didn’t even got reply from you about ‘Sapinda’ northindian & southindian differences…

Commentors I expect more honesty & morality; I want see influence of Vedas in your actions don’t just limit them to articles please…

hmm…a sincere advice to you, do not post comments in haste here. Before reading the articles of Agniveer.com first read about the project Agniveer. what’s it purpose? Don’t be in a rush. They are not running a crash course here. You have to be patient. And remember the part ‘unleash the legend within’. AND “They don’t promise to answer everything. They merely help you seek the right questions. The answers lie within you. Let the discovery begin…”

@anand ‘Todays Dalits dont read hios books and simply parrot the AIT ‘… what about great learned todays ‘brahmins & other casts’ are they away with untouchbility… if dalits mug-up AIT its not big deal they learnt a history fact wrongly.. But if great learned upper caste people still maintain untouchability.. they are real demons according to vedas..

‘that is why Gandhiji saw to it that he resigned from the fund set up to do away with untouchability’ If gandhiji honestly wanted to erase caste system he could have but he didn’t even after many others request.. He wanted birth-based caste system to exist.. If learned people like Gandhi (a god man) does that then it is very obvious that common humanitarians like me (who move away with situation) to burn vedas as arjun killed Bhishma to protect justice… When Gandi gave new name to shudras as ‘Harijans’ foolish people rejoiced; indeed it is another disgrace.. Read Savarkar comments on Gandi’s attitude towards caste-system

I dont see where he has made that claim that Arya Samajis are wrong. Can u pls pinpoint? Further, he actually acknowledged that Swami Shraddhanandji was genuinely interested in eliminating untouchability and that is why Gandhiji saw to it that he resigned from the fund set up to do away with untouchability.

Refer this from "Who were the Shudras": "I am not sorry for this clash with Arya Samajists. The Arya Samajists have done great mischief in making the Hindu society a stationary society by preaching that the Vedas are eternal, without beginning, without end, and infallible, and that the social institutions of the Hindus being based on the Vedas are also eternal, without beginning, without end, infallible and therefore requiring no change. To be permeated with such a belief is the worst thing that can happen to a community. I am convinced that the Hindu society will not accept the necessity of reforming itself unless and until this Arya Samajists' ideology is completely destroyed. The book does render this service, if no other."

I do not want to question Ambedkar's sincerity to Dalit cause, but do feel that he got bit too biased against foundations of our culture.

Thus we can conclude that Ambedkar mostly relied on Western Indologists(whose main aim was to destroy hindu culture) books(of Griffith, max muller) and most of the time his own words contradicts himself!!…

I guess most of the things written by Arun Shourie on Ambedkar in "Worshipping False Gods" might be correct..

In "Who were the Shudras", Dr.Amedkar even quotes the Shanti Parva of Mahabharata which provides equal representation to Shudras on Council of Ministers of the King..almost on par with Brahmins. He acknowledges that earlier Shudras were treated equally and entitled to Upanayanam.

Dr Amdedkar considers Shudras to be part of Kshatriyas originally. As per him, because of fights with Shudra kings where Brahmins had to suffer losses, Brahmins discriminated against Shudras. This theory relies on the 4 Varnas being birth-based, which is not true.

@Shudra, you are giving half-true & over exaggerated references which are fabricated & made look even worse by western indologists & so called sanskritists like Ralph t. Griffith, max muller etc., http://agniveer.com/821/vedas-and-shudra/ if you must have read this article without having prejudiced motive than you would not have asked question so. Bhagwad Gita B.G. 18:41 which clearly refutes the conclusion, that verse clearly says “Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by their qualities of work, O chastiser of the enemy, in accordance with the modes of nature”, note here, lord krishna said, “by their quality of work, in accordance with mode of nature with which their souls are gradually influenced”, here show me word that it says “birth-based”, here it clearly says on other hand, “any one can change his quality of work by removing influence of natural characteristics such as attraction & darkness which is suggested in other parts of geeta for every human & arjuna as well . And one can chage his varna & thus can become brahmin from shudra if he improves his intellectual level by doing deeds in intelligent ways ” . Look for this one, B.G. 16:24 “One should understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations, one should act so that he may gradually be elevated”,, which clearly refute your all claim why those four varnas are not birth based but just a state of person in evolution stage. The actual word used for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra is ‘Varna’.

Sir, I agree with you in all the points, but why you do not agree with me Please open your eyes and see what happen in around us and that is only true. We see bad effects of Verna system only birth system are available in Hindusiam only may be 000.1% can be seen in routine life according to vedas. Last three vernas hate Brahmins, Brahmins hates prosperous life style of below three verna, All above haptes shudras and all shudras hate above three each and every one hates each others. and 999.9 corruption available in above three vernas. They have no believe in god or no fear and god. Only GOD fear imposed on shudra and ask him be honest, be serve honeslty to upper three vernas without any excepetation, it means total exploitation each and everyone upper class doing this. I MEAN TO SAY HATHI KE DANT KHANE KE AUR DIKHANE KE AUR IS THE EARL MEANING OF HINDUSIAM .

You say :" Unfortunately, even someone like Dr B R Ambedkar could not rise above his biased mind and ended up accusing Vedas of being the foundation of Shudra-subjugation". No Sir. I beg to differ on this issue. Please read "Who were the Shudras" by Dr.B.R.Ambedkar. If any leader in the 40s and 50s opposed the Aryan Invasion Theory, it was him. He was quite objective. He never accused Vedas of discrimination against the Shudras.http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/38A.%20Who%20were%2…

Ambedkar believed that portions of Vedas were written later. He believed these portions, including Purush Sukta were anti-Shudra. Further, he believed that Shudras as a Varna did not exist separately in Vedic society and that they were part of Kshatriyas. He thus concluded that Arya Samaj view of Vedas being infallible is against the reformist agenda in favor of Shudras. Unfortunately, by his own admission, since his knowledge of Sanskrit was limited and he had to rely only on English translations by western indologists, he grossly erred on these points. In reality, the meaning of word Shudra was always supposed to be quite different from caste-connotations that was forced on it later. While he did not replicate the theories of westerners with regards to Aryan Invasion, he nonetheless considered the 4 varnas to be different from what they actually meant and considered belief in Vedas to be a roadblock in reformation of society. That is why he converted to Buddhism without assessing Vedas differently from western translations, and that set a wrong precedent.

your articles very nice to read, and hear… but again we are not slave or fool to believe….. that is good to see how you are alert every moment.

There is no caste or varna or vedas are good ok but how 3000 thousand of caste. if any sudra read mandara cut their tongue, or if he hear pour lead his ear…hahahahah.. anyway i dont want waste our time to read these kind of dirty articles. whoever believe this article thats their choice. All ways your group cheating us. that is not new.

Read below about hindu religion, Inspite of education Brahmins practiced sati and widowhood for millenia. If you go to mathura, all the widow you see there are brahmin widows in white saree? Mostly from middle class educated families. On the contrary, Dalits were denied education for millenia, but Dalits are the only people in India, who never practiced sati or widowhood, widow remarriage is a very common culture among Dalits for ages. But, in case of educated Brahmins, someone like British has to come and tell them, that it is wrong. In the whole of India, it is the only Dalit culture, which is most liberal in terms of marraiage, sexuality and gender equality. You will hardly find any dowry deaths among dalits. The only problem of Dalits is denial of rights and atrocities on them by Hindus. It was Dr.Ambedkar (Dalit) who married a Brahmin woman and fought for the rights of brahmin women, gave them Rights to get Divorce, Right to inherit father’s property, Right to re-marry in form of Hindu code bill. These rights were denied to Brahmin women by their own men in all through Indian History. When Dr.Ambedkar introduced Hindu code bill, it was the English educated Brahmins who protested and opposed it tooth and nail, for which Dr.Ambedkar resigned from the Nehru’s cabinet? Why did english educated Brahmins behaved like this? Can you explain this paradox? Can you give me an example of a Liberal, educated Brahmin leader marrying a Dalit girl and fought for the Dalit rights? In case, if any Brahmin does this in future no Dalit will oppose him, like educated brahmins opposed Dr Ambedkar’s fight for Brahmin women rights.

Shall I explain you this paradox????? So, with full confidence I am writing you all these. The actual problem is, the present day educated, urban innocent Hindus don’t know about their own religion. To them Hinduism is a Noble religion. This Noble impression they got because of Swami Vivekananda (SV) and Sri Aurobindo (SA). These 2 saints, very good at heart had actually what they propagated was Upanishad part of Hinduism, which was discarded by Brahmins Long ago. Carefully Notice all the saints who popularized Upanishadic philosophy are Non-Brahmin upper caste like SV. Actually what Hinduism teaches? What is the literature of Hinduism? Traditionally Hindus Religious lore is divided into 2 groups of Books. (We can have a detail debate on this).

Hinduism’s Religious Literature fall into two groups of Books.

Six Orthodox Hindu philosophies

Group I : Shruti

Group II : Smriti

1) Nyaya

2) Visheshika

3) Mimansa

4) Sankhya

5) Vedanta

6) Yoga

1) Vedas (Rig, Artharva,

Yajur and Sama)

2) Aranyakas

3) Brahmanas

4) Upanishads

1) Shastras

2) Puranas

3) Sutras

4) Ithihasas

These two groups (Shruti and Smriti) together sum up the six ancient orthodox philosophies of Hinduism. All the books under Shruti and Smriti were produced by Brahmins themselves except the Aranyakas and Upanishads, which were produced by Kshatriyas. This was the reason why there was fight between Brahmins and Kshatriyas, right from the ancient History of India. The best example is of the fight between the Brahmin Vasistha and Kshatriya Vishwamitra. Since, Upanishads were produced by Kshatriyas, Brahmins did not like them and hence, they called them as Vedanta (Upanishads) meaning Veda + anta, anta in Sanskrit means “End or Border”. So, the meaning of Vedanta (Upanishads) is Books outside Vedas. Such, was the contempt Brahmins had towards the Upanishads by calling them as Vedanta. Why Brahmins hated Vedanta (Upanishads), just because they were produced by Kshatriyas? No, Brahmins hated Upanishads for two reasons, first, because of the kshatriya origin of the books, second, for it’s contents. This raises a question, what does Upanishads teach. There are about 108 Upanishads, some important, some quite unimportant. What ever may be it, what do they teach? What is there in Upanishads which made Brahmins call it with a derogatory word “Vedanta”? The Kshatriya Rishis of Upanishads discovered that every being has an “Atman” which is derived from “Paramatman” (Brahman). The Paramatman was the all-pervading principle which binds the universe and the salvation lay in the Atman realizing that is Paramatman. The main thesis of Upanishads was that Paramatman was a reality and that Atman was the same as Paramatman. The Atman did not realize that it was Paramatman because of the Upadhis (Obstacles) in which it is entangled. Since, every being has the same Atman derived from Paramatman, so all men are equal. This is where Brahmins could not accept the equality of all men; this is the reason why they hated Upanishads with the name Vedanta. Hence, Upanishads were never part of Vedas; they were un-canonical in all through the history.

For our argument sake let us divide the Hinduism as two parts, one part is the Books produced by Brahmins and the other part is the Books produced by Kshatriyas. Kshatriyas produced the Upanishad philosophy, which is all men are equal. The philosophy that Brahmins produced is the Vedic philosophy, that is all men are unequal, which later got popularized as Shastras and Puranas. So, the bed rock of the Upanishads is equality, whereas the bed rock of Puranic (Vedic) is inequality. Brahmins developed a common culture around this Puranic (Vedic, Shastras) philosophy, which was based on inequality. At the same time brahmins never allowed Upanishad philosophy to become a common culture and ethics of Indian society, because any attempt to develop a culture around Upanishads would lead into equalizing the society. So, Upanishads just remained as a mere philosophy, never became the culture of India. So, the mass of Hindus all through the History were under the spell of puranic Hindusim, that is the reason why Brahmins could survive unchallenged holding temples. All the rituals, which Hindus follow at home and temples today is in the puranic style, not the Upanishadic way. Dowry, Sati, Widowhood, Child marriages, Agni-pariksha, Husband-worship etc all these are the part of the Puranic Hinduism culture. These kinds of activities Brahmins made it as Civil law of the society through Shastras, thus sanctifying the Puranic Hindusim legally. Whereas, Upanishadic Hindusim could not develop any rational civil law, as it could not create a culture around it due to Brahmin opposition.

The other religion which fought the Puranic Hindusim in the History was Buddhism. To counter Buddhism, Brahmins employed various measures for a very long time. One, they used Muslims to kill Buddhism, Second, they themselves became Buddhist monks and distorted the Buddhism, Third, Brahmins saints with the help of some soldiers killed Buddhist monks (example Adi Shakaracharya killed Buddhism in south india by killing Buddhist monks). Fourth, produced Bhagavat Gita to counter Buddhism in the name of Krishna. Bhagavat Gita is nothing but a distorted mixture of Sankhya and Vedanta philosophy to defend the caste system. They did it in the name of Krishna. Sankhya and Vedanta philosophies haven’t crystallized very well at the time of Krishna, then how did Krishna use these two philosophies?? From this itself it is clear that Bhagavat Gita was produced by Brahmins, to counter Buddhism. It is surprising to see, why Brahmins used Vedanta (Upanishads) philosophy in Bhagavat Gita which they hated. If we read the Bhagavat Gita carefully, one can notice the Vedanta philosophy is distorted in such a way to defend the caste system. This is how Brahmins prevented Upanishad philosophy, Buddhism to take roots in Indian soil, whereas they nurtured Puranic Hindusim culture thoroughly.

If today, common Hindus practice dowry, Agni-pariksha, Caste system etc it is not because they are not educated, it is because they are following the culture of their puranic Hindusim which is taught to them for centuries. Here, the problem is not education it is the cultural notions of their own religion Hindusim. It was only Dalits who did not accept the puranic Hindusim that was the reason why Brahmins condemned them as untouchables. This is the reason why in Dalit culture, there is no widowhood, Agni-pariksha etc, because they did not accept Puranic Hindusim. This is the reason why educated Brahmins opposed Dr Ambedkar’s Hindu code bill, because Dr. Ambedkar was attacking the Puranic Hindusim, which is the culture of Brahmins. How can Brahmins allow the demolition of their own culture which they nurtured for centuries?

It was only during the time of Swami Vivekananda (SV), some attempt was made to popularize the Upanishad (Vedanta) Hinduism. During this time the meaning of Vedanta changed from Books outside Vedas, became the Essence of Vedas. Today Vedanta (Upanishads) is called as Essence of Vedas. This was the service done by SV, he tried to attack the Puranic Hindusim and develop Upanishadic Hindusim into a culture. But, before this became a reality, suddenly he dies at a very young age of 39, without any ill-health or disease. His death is still a mystery? Now, some urban educated Hindus got an opportunity to know about the culture of Upanishads, so they think Hindusim is a very Noble religion. Such, kind of Hindus, when they see people in the grip of Puranic Hindusim doing bad things, they cannot understand, they think it is not because of religion, it is because of lack of education or backwardness.

So, I guess now you understand what I am arguing. The principle problem of India is not education; it is the culture of Puranic Hindusim which is responsible for all the problems in India. Now, the question is the Enlightened, Learned, Good, and Secular Brahmins are they ready to demolish the Puranic Hindusim and Glorify the Upanishadic Hindusim? Are they ready to develop a common public psychology, culture and ethics around Upanishads? The future of India depends upon the answer-action to this question. Dalits are the only people in India, who are ever ready to demolish the Puranic Hindusim, are there any Good Brahmins left who want to join their camp?

It is clearly evident from the puranic literature and historic event that some sort of complex prevailed between the Varna group and it is continuing even to-day. But from the beginning till to-day the entire blame is put on Brahmin whose population is very negligible in the society. Hence without the support of other Varna people it is not possible to introduce any changes or ruling in the society. Whatever good or bad happened in Hindu society the prize/blame should be shared by the three Varna people excluding powerless Sudra? No human being is devoid of hereditary trait. It is natural that Ambedkar findings are to some extent biased putting the entire blame on Brahmin. Even Vivekananda also done this blaming Brahmin one sided. I am also wondering how the Brahmin haters forget the atrocities done by the invaders continuously for 1500 years, extending their support till to-day for them and blindly digging their own grave.

Also I read in some books that the original name of Ambedkar is Bema Rao. A Brahmin teacher named Ambedkar helped him in his studies. Ambedkar changed his name as Bema Rao Ambedkar (B.R.Ambedkar) as a remembrance of loyalty shown by the teacher. Also for his higher studies one Mr.Arjun Kelusker a Brahmin took him to the Raja of Gaighuward and arranged funds. Also he married a Brahmin lady as a second wife during end period of his life. I don’t know how far these information are correct. Having mingled with Brahmin in his life how he has taken the stand of putting the entire blame on Brahmin alone is really perplexing.

I think you mistake social evil from what was past. Social evils actually are not from religion like Vedas, or Upanishads, but are from human ignorance.

In any society there will be classes of people the ruling elite, warriors, labor, educated, business classes.Whether we look at English, American, European, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, communist etc. This is basic structure of large societies, but we do not call them caste based societies. In fact there is an caste system outside India called doctors,lawyers, scientist, politicians, and it is too inherited to some degrees as educated tend to remain educated. There will be class conflict always, as no one would like to think anyone is superior or inferior. But in Hindu dharma stories of Shudra, Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Assura, getting mokesh is common place which is the highest achievement for Hindus.

Remember unless they received full 25 years brahmacharya having the respective qualities of Brahmin, Viahsya, Shudra, Kshatriyas,then and only then could they be classified as such otherwise they were all born shudra.Only person who posses those above qualities and this is not birth based.

We in this perspective must see history. I recently procured a book called “ProtoHistory :Archaeology of the Harappan Civilization”2004 published by ICHR, S.Settar, Ravi Korisettar, this book was very clear that what you call Ayran Invasion is very much a fraud that it was the Swarswati River civilization, the People living there was indigenous, that over 1,000,000 km2 area was covered whereas the before theory in 1947 covered a few sites of Indus now over 1000 sites are discovered compared to Egypt where only 15,000 sq km of being only but far more excavated.It largest ancient civilization know to man. In fact migration more likely to Europe because of this fact then invasion. Infact the say there is period of time of resettlement.. That the British time when so called Indus valley civilization making false claims as the remains were by natural death not by butchering, most of them worshiped in fire alters similar to Vedic Hindus.

Bur most interesting of these societies they were first to have water supplied to every house, they did not have a culture haves and have not, and their evidence in areas like Punjap that there is continuation of culture.Also Like Dwarka in Mahabhara some exist Drawka where the Mahabharat wrote. So there is too much evidence it is history of Hindus.

We believe us Hindus this Kali Yuga individuals are not of such character to tell truth. Hindus believe in history of millions of years and say their history is continuous. What verifies this is scientific evidence. Further what say they were technology better is they say they knew more about plants, and animals then we know today, what is the proof this that most science have got the basic of medicines, plants and animals from these ancient people and still continue this stealing called Bio-piracy. Great libraries were burnt down for over six months like the nine story Nalanda confirm that today is the Dark ages and usher in such an age in India..Even today we have no such large libraries relative to our population.

Now you blame Hindus for Muslim killing Buddhist, but do you blame them for killing Hindus that they do even today with the Kashmir Hindu population by giving them one days notice to leave.Creation of Pakistan, Afghanistan where Muslim do the same speaking of genocide of both Hindus and Buddhist including their mandhirs who make a percent of population.

Dear Tamil face the fact that the British were racist pigs they would never call a dark skin person an Aryan which they considered themselves to be. The North Indian with lighter skin they though but not the South Indian. You are a victim of fiction so what you say is hypocritical.

Further British lied, yes Hindus in this modern world called Kali yoga are corrupt they are not like the Swarswati Civilization. People are inhuman cruel, greedy, corrupt. There is destruction all around as they say it is the biggest extinction period millions of species have been extinguished and large portion of the earth have turned to desert due to the evil people do in last 2000-3000 years.. People listen to their mafia dons, bollywood not to educated to commercials on TV. They listen to corrupt like Nehru who partitioned the country, back stabbed Mahatma Gandhi, slept with Mount Batten wife who introduced such theories to Indian society. They are weak and low in character unable even to practice Brahmachary.

Respect Agniveer, as they are tiring to take India out of Dark ages and live her glory, not live in the time of British racism and Bigotry, or where ignorance is predominate. It is time raise again to be the most truthful country, the most crime free, the place where everyone wanted to go, the country with the largest exports who know throughout the world for not the measly one percent, Histories most powerful nation,The richest most educated country of the world, not of Babus, criminals, and poverty..

You speak about attrocities of Invaders, I know they were & are horrible.. but you must accept that this was that gift given by orthodox brahmins who designed birth-based cast.. by which Ravan like wicked minded became brahmins.. and impotents became kshatriya how could they protect Bharath matha…

As arabindo said ‘whatever attrocities my mother (bharath matha) faced is because of selfish brahmins and arrogant kshatriyas’..

For all those murders, rapes, infanticides, burning, temple destruction, looting are the gift of the great brahmins.

@Tamil : Frnd, We do not believe in the puranas, they have no credibility and are man made, they are to be outright discarded Please read SatyaPrakash by Rishi Dayanand Saraswati., It can be found on this portal itself, please check the home page

LTTE cjief Prabhakaran was a Christian though he behaved like a Marxist-Leninist violent idelogy. He had no compassion and lived a royal princely life with a fortified state in Sri Lanka having wealth to the tune of about two thousand crores.

“The LTTE is not just anti-Sinhala, they are anti-Buddhists as well. And in this, they do seem to have a holy pact with certain sections of the Catholic Church and countless evangelical outfits all over the country. … The point is that the missionaries have historically been part and parcel of the colonial project. That project, now called Globalisation, is still incomplete. It includes the erasure of all cultures outside the ambit of Judeo-Christian bigotry. It is in this context that the efforts of Christian Evangelical Alliances or whatever else they may want to call themselves, have to be viewed. And opposed.” Please peruse the link: http://www.deeppencil.com/news-politics/page2/ There are plenty of references but Wikipedia is silent on his Christian identity. Reason is very obvious. Church has been most vicious all over the globe and this caste business is perpetration of Church with a vested interest in conversion. In all the current Middle East crisis there is a underhand of Church for proselytisation. Unfortunate. They operate very carefully in hidden manners so that their role is not easily discerned.

Vedas are the only texts of Sanatana Dharma and the only Shruti texts, hence one should live his/her life according to Vedas and not other texts such as Puranas.

Sati and the other social problems you mentioned are just that, social problems. They have no link to the actual Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma).

Vedas are what should be followed first and the other smriti texts such as Upanisads should be accepted as per Vedas. Anything in a smriti text that doesn’t agree with what Vedas say should be rejected.

The LTTE was nothing but a way to kill off Hindus, headed by (no surprise here) a christian (Prabhakaran was a christian). No one should support such an organisation, especially not a Hindu.

About LTTE being an anti-Hindu organization. Nonsense. To the best of my knowledge, Prabhakaran’s marriage was held according to Hindu religious rites in a temple in Tamil Nadu. Also LTTE was fighting against the Buddhist-chuavinist Sri Lankans and espousing the cause of SL Tamils, a majority of whom are Hindus, and so it couldn’t afford to be anti-Hindu anyway. Of course, due to its Marxist and other modern ideologies’ influence, it may have opposed many existing Hindu customs, etc. which any reformist / radical organization will do.

Thank you Tamil, I think the learned, intelligent people like you are very less in our society and those who are there, are not coming forward because of their own caste benefit. Now its high time that we all should start a mission to tell the truth to open the eyes of the our so called religious authorities which only save this beautiful religion and and our nation. This is the only way to stop conversions to other religion. But I am sure Bramhins will not allow this to happen because in the past whenever somebody like Bhagwan Buddha, Saint Dnyaneshwar (12th century) Saint Ravidas (15th century) Saint Tukaram (17th century) and now Swami Vivekanand and Dr B R Ambedkar tried to do this either they were severely opposed or finished. It is a fact in the present scenario there is 100% reservation to 3% Bramhins for economically and socially important temple posts like priesthood and Shankaracharyas where there is unlimited flow of money (without paying income tax). It is natural that they are going to use all there powers so that their income sources (without efforts) will be maintained in the Indian society.

Your comments have some truth. However, the truth you are talking about is limited to people’s behavior. Not idea. The Vedas and the Upanishads as not opposed to each other. It is true that Brahmins at one point messed it up. But that does not discredit the Vedas and the Upanishads. Since you are asking for names, one name I can give who has been like a sun to many. Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi of Tiruvannamalai was a Brahmin. Read his life story.

Ok, In vedic times there was no birth caste thats every one know, and it must be a better(equal?) than puranic hinduism.But let us also see whats the big difference ‘tween Vedic and puranic hinduism. Vedic- they eat meat even zebu beef(although they praised one who doesn’t). Puranic-they strictly popularised vegetarians. Vedic-The local god(of adivasis and villages were not included Puranic- They included all gods of popular belief Any one has to sy something about these puranic as far as i believe are beter than vedics over these two atleast. No offence,pure comment

This Tamil is suffering from half knowledge which is more dangerous than no knowldge.

1) if there was war between vishwamitra & vasishta, there shud hv been battles. 2) agni pariksha reference in ramayana is between ram & sita. Neither families were brahmin families 3) the person who wrote vedas himsef was not a brahmin. Every brahmin reading vedas know that veda vyasa was a tribe and yet sing his praise. This proves all this accusation of caste discrimination and hatred is imaginary & propagated my pseudo intellectuals synthesised by church & macaulay types. 4) vivekananda had TB. He was a smoker. All RK mutt swamijis including brahmin born swamis in RK mutt know this. To suggest brahmins killed vivekananda in conspiracy is outrageous. 5) ambedkar is not his original lastname. The ambedkar name was given to bhim rao in his college days by his teavher who’s name was ambedkar. His teacher(brahmin named ambedkkar) gave bhim rao his own name to ensure that his dalit sounding family name does not hinder his path to success. Obviously Mr Tamil will verify this, curse himself.

1) I don’t understand what you are saying. But that there was serious rivalry and fight between Viswamitra and Vasishtha is recorded in Puranas and we read it in text books even in our childhood. Viswamitra became a Rajarshi but would not become a brahmarshi unless Vasishtha agrees to it, etc. and Vasishtha’s reluctance and Viswamitra’s own arrogant and angry nature led to all the fight – that’s what we read. 2) That is true. 3) But Vedavyas is deemed a Brahimin, not only due to his learning but also due to his birth (or half-birth). Vedavyas is son of Parashara Maharshi and Satyavati (a fisher-woman). Parashara was son of Sakti Muni and Sakti was son of Vasishtha Maharshi. So on the father’s side Vyas was of Brahmin origin. Vyas sired Dritharashtra, Pandu and Vidura with Amba, Ambalika and a maid , and with his own wife he begat Suka Maharshi. 4) Vivekananda’s guru Ramakrishna was a brahmin. May be there was some grouse among Brahmin followers of Ramakrishna that none of them but a Kayastha (Vivekananda) became the successor of Ramakrishna, but to suggest that Vivekananda was killed by their conspiracy is too much. I have not found such allegations to this day anywhere and even Wikipedia does not contain even a reference to such allegations. 5) Ii is true that the Brahmin teacher of Bhimrao gave his suffix of Ambedkar to him and thence Bhimrao became more known as Ambedkar. But the reasons for that teacher doing so are not so clear. However, he helped his pupil very much and I don’t know whether Ambedkar ever later referred to him in respectful terms and paid homage.

Scroll down to the very end and read my comments in 3 parts.. The summary of my stand is this. Varna system adovcated by hinduism is the perfect merit based system which any ideal advanced society should aspire to.

Society grades occupations based on skill and sphere of influence. In your blind hate for casteism and anti-hindu propaganda, you are suggesting all occupations are equal. If that was the case, would you suggest equal pay for the scientist and the garbage collector? No occupation is lowly, but that doesn’t imply all occupations are treated the same. There should be dignity of labour.

Answers? you expect answers to all your trash you vomited out here on that moron Ambedkar and the more moronic Brahmins (casteist) ? You should become a comedian, for all the jokes you have cracked above. You must be a fan of that troll Periyar for only liars like him and his followers can bark such garbage and lies.

Suggestion: better don’t make a joke out of yourself by farting (e.g. Dalits treat women better than Brahmins do, when actually all leading women are Brahmins and other upper castes)

Q. Suggestion: better don’t make a joke out of yourself by farting (e.g. Dalits treat women better than Brahmins do, when actually all leading women are Brahmins and other upper castes). A: Sir, You have not able understand the truth, you do not know what is the power behind all the leading women of brahmin and other uper caste. That power was HON’BLE SAVITRI BAI PHULE & HER HUSBAND HON’BLE JYOTIBA RAO PHULE , Who was the FIRST women authorised teacher in India and who start first women school in India (Maharstra Pune) for shudra’s girls and all Brahmin and upper caste oppose this and they Barked Dharam ki lutiya doob jayegi agar aurten shiksheet ho gayi. In Hindu Dharma education is totaly ban for Women and Shudras. Hindu/Brahmin torture physically and mentally to Ms.Phulle ji , After that all the women Brahmins/Hindus/Aryas start get education. Before Ms.Phulle no women education school was not available in India.

YOU KNOW WHO WAS HON’BLE SWITRI BAI PHULLE , SHE WAS A SHUDRA WOMEN OF MAHARASHTRA SHE AND HER HUSBAND OPEN THE DOOR FOR 80% INDIANS I.E. WAS WOMEN AND SHUDRA. SIR, THIS IS NOT A JOKE THIS IS REALLITY OF UR AND UR FOREFATHERS. AGAR YE THEEK HOTE TO GAURI, GAJNI, BABER DEKHNE KI HIMMAT NHI KAR SAKTE THE.

Dear Agniveer, OK let us assume that Dr BRA assessed Vedas through Tampered (English) translation and we will discuss what you have translated above in YAJURVEDA 20.17. You read it again, it is very clearly mentioned that Shudras and Vaishyas should forgive for the crimes against them. That means surely they agreed that crimes were conducted in those days against Vaishyas and Shudras otherwise what for forgiveness? It is very clearly written in your text only now you cant blame europian Indologists. You will still have some polished words to explain in your dictionary but no intelligent person will believe it.

‘ That means surely they agreed that crimes were conducted in those days against Vaishyas and Shudras otherwise what for forgiveness?’

What do you mean by “those days” ?

It is clearly mentioned that varna system is entirely merit based instead of birth-based as currently practised and Shudra is a profession category of Arya or those people who are indulged in benevolent acts. Say, if you chuck out your nurse for no fault of his/her and later on you repent your decision for what you did. Would you not pray to God to forgive & relieve you from the tendency of repeating it again ??

Seems like you just want to continue with your rant against the Vedas otherwise I see no reason as to why a MBBS graduate would find it so difficult to understand a simple thing mentined in Yajurved 20.17

agneeveer, he was scholar in sanskrit and he knew hidden meaning of the word. you are a pebble and he was ocean of the knowledge. I know that you are brahmin and you want to save your society which depends on illogically back ground… even you dont know about parmatma. and, so you have found the das avtara which were not incarnation of parmatma, if parshuram was incarnation of god then why he killed many innocent people. So dont blaim on the mahapurush B.R. Ambedkar . if he was not born india then you will rule and punish the innocent people. you are raksha not brahman yuo have to accept now and apologize.

Babaji, Baba Ambedkar has himself admitted that he did not know Sanskrit and relied on European translations to interpret Hindu texts. Das Avatara, Parashuram etc are models of belief. Being Hindu has nothing to do with these beliefs. You may accept or reject them. Many Hindus believe in formless God, many in form, many in both, many in nothing. And Agniveer accepts and apologizes for being unable to destroy enemies of Hinduism as effectively as it had dreamt of. May God grant us strength to fulfill this mission in no time. We are happy to have you as a partner in this mission.