From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 01 Dec 1996 06:59:04 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Santa Cost Cutting
Hi all
Thought this might amuse you and show how bad the economy must be to affect
poor Santa to such an extent. I have forwarded this from MMList.
>
>Date: 191711 1995
>To: All good girls and boys
>From: Santa Clause CEO
>Subject: Downsizing at the North Pole
>
>The recent announcement that Donner and Blitzen have elected to take the
>early reindeer retirement package has triggered a good deal of concern
>about whether they will be replaced and about other restructuring
>decisions at the North Pole.
>
>Streamlining was appropriate in view of the reality that the North Pole no
>longer dominates the season's gift distribution business. Home shopping
>channels and mail order catalogues have diminished Santa's market share and
>he could not sit idly by and permit further erosion of the profit picture.
>
>The reindeer downsizing was made possible through the purchase of a late
>model Japanese sled for the CEO's annual trip. Improved productivity from
>Dasher and Dancer who summered at the Harvard Business School is
>anticipated and should take up the slack with no discernible loss of
>service. Reduction in reindeer will also lessen airborne environmental
>emissions for which the North Pole has been cited and received unfavorable
>press.
>
>I am pleased to inform you and yours that Rudolph's role will not be
>disturbed. Tradition still counts for something at the North Pole.
>Management denies in the strongest possible language the earlier leak
>that Rudolph's nose got that way not from the cold but from substance
>abuse. Calling Rudolph "a lush who was into the sauce and never did pull
>his share of the load" was an unfortunate comment made by one of Santa's
>helpers and taken out-of-context at a time of
>year when he is known to be under executive stress.
>
>As a further restructuring today's global challenges require the North
>Pole to continue to look for better more competitive steps. Effective
>immediately the following economy measures are to take place in the
>"Twelve Days of Christmas" subsidiary:
>
>The partridge will be retained but the pear tree never turned out to be
>the cash crop forecasted. It will be replaced by a plastic hanging plant
>providing considerable savings in maintenance.
>
>The two turtle doves represent a redundancy that is simply not
>cost-effective. In addition their romance during working hours could not
>be condoned. The positions are therefore eliminated.
>
>The three French hens will remain intact. After all everyone loves the French.
>
>The four calling birds were replaced by an automated voice mail system
>with a call waiting option. An analysis is underway to determine who the
>birds have been calling how often and how long they talked.
>
>The five golden rings have been put on hold by the Board of Directors.
>Maintaining a portfolio based on one commodity could have negative
>implications for institutional investors. Diversification into other
>precious metals as well as a mix of T-Bills and high technology stocks
>appear to be in order.
>
>The six geese-a-laying constitutes a luxury which can no longer be
>afforded. It has long been felt that the production rate of one egg per
>goose per day is an example of the decline in productivity. Three geese
>will be let go and an upgrading in the selection procedure by personnel
>will assure management that from now on every goose it gets will be a good
>one.
>
>The seven swans-a-swimming is obviously a number chosen in better times.
>The function is primarily decorative. Mechanical swans are on order. The
>current swans will be retrained to learn some new strokes and therefore
>enhance their outplacement.
>
>As you know the eight maids-a-milking concept has been under heavy
>scrutiny by the EEOC. A male/female balance in the workforce is being
>sought. The more militant maids consider this a dead-end job with no upward
>mobility. Automation of the process may permit the maids to try a-mending
>a-mentoring or a-mulching.
>
>Nine ladies dancing has always been an odd number. This function will be
>phased out as these individuals grow older and can no longer do the steps.
>
>Ten Lords-a-leaping is overkill. The high cost of Lords plus the expense of
>international air travel prompted the Compensation Committee to suggest
>replacing this group with ten out-of-work congressmen. While leaping
>ability may be somewhat sacrificed the savings are significant because we
>expect an oversupply of unemployed congressmen this year.
>
>Eleven pipers piping and twelve drummers drumming is a simple case of the
>band getting too big. A substitution with a string quartet a cutback on
>new music and no uniforms will produce savings which will drop right down
>to the bottom line.
>
>We can expect a substantial reduction in assorted people fowl animals and
>other expenses. Though incomplete studies indicate that stretching
>deliveries over twelve days is inefficient. If we can drop ship in one
>day service levels will be improved.
>
>Regarding the lawsuit filed by the attorney's association seeking
>expansion to include the legal profession "thirteen lawyers-a-suing"
>action is pending.
>
>Lastly it is not beyond consideration that deeper cuts may be necessary in
>the future to stay competitive. Should that happen the Board will request
>management to scrutinize the Snow White Division to see if seven dwarfs is
>the right number. Happy Holidays! S. Claus
>
> -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 01 Dec 1996 15:28:35 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Krotona Schedule Winter/Spring 96
At 034400 PM 11/30/95 -0500 Martin Leiderman wrote:
>Krotona School of Theosophy
>Ojai California
>Program of Activities: Winter/Spring 96
>......... etc
>
Thanks for taking the time to keyin the schedule. It is possible
some one may be able to use the information.
Have you attended any of the programs?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 02 Dec 1996 02:15:35 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Krotona Schedule Winter/Spring 96
Thanks for this Martin! I am too far away to get to any of it
even if I could afford to but I am *really* pleased to see news
of things that people can DO!
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 02 Dec 1996 08:17:24 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Theos-news as a non-discussion-list
hi --
just a reminder that Theos-News is meant for *Announcements* of news rather than
discussions. I think it works better that way; many people want information
only and not discussions/dialogue. The idea was that people could stay in
contact with things without the deluge of e-mail discussion-lists generate.
peace -
john mead
discussion of news items are very welcome on the other lists.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 02 Dec 1996 08:17:24 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Theos-news as a non-discussion-list
hi --
just a reminder that Theos-News is meant for *Announcements* of news rather than
discussions. I think it works better that way; many people want information
only and not discussions/dialogue. The idea was that people could stay in
contact with things without the deluge of e-mail discussion-lists generate.
peace -
john mead
discussion of news items are very welcome on the other lists.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 02 Dec 1996 08:17:24 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Theos-news as a non-discussion-list
hi --
just a reminder that Theos-News is meant for *Announcements* of news rather than
discussions. I think it works better that way; many people want information
only and not discussions/dialogue. The idea was that people could stay in
contact with things without the deluge of e-mail discussion-lists generate.
peace -
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 04 Dec 1996 00:31:57 GMT
From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: A test
I am having problems with my e-mail so I am trying to send a message to
theos-roots.
Also Rich: did you get my message I sent you on Sunday?
Dan
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 04 Dec 1996 04:01:48 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re A00 test
On 04 199512 MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU wrote:
>
> I am having problems with my e-mail so I am trying to send a message to
> theos-roots.
>
> Also Rich: did you get my message I sent you on Sunday?
>
> Dan
>
Your message came loud and clear.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 04 Dec 1996 20:58:45 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re A00 test
Dan
Yes got it and responded with thanks. You never got my e-mail?
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 05 Dec 1996 03:21:06 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Adyar Rules
ROOTS!
It seemed a good idea to make available material rarely seen by
theosophists of any denomination when the matter of the
international Adyar rules came up on theos-l. So here goes
with the first part .....
Beginning of Memorandum of Association and Rules and
Regulations of the Theosophical Society as incorporated at
Madras India 1905. Transcript follows from photocopy in the
editor's possession:
MEMORANDUM OF ASSOCIATION ETC.
CERTIFICATE OF INCORPORATION
No. 02 of 1905
I hereby certify pursuant to Act XXI of 1860 of the Governor-
General of India in Council entitled 'An Act for the Registrat-
ion of Literary Scientific and Charitable Societies 1860'
that The Theosophical Society is duly incorporated as a Society
under the aforesaid Act.
SEAL
Sd A. PERYIASWAMI MOODALIAR
Station Madras Registrar of Joint Stock Companies
Dated 3rd 190504
THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
FOUNDED 17 NOVEMBER 1875 INCORPORATED 03 APRIL 1905
In the matter of Act XXI 1860 of the Acts of Viceroy
and Governor-General of India in Council being
an Act for the registration of literary
scientific and charitable Societies
and
IN THE MATTER OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
-------------
MEMORANDUM OF ASSOCIATION
1. The name of the Association is The Theosophical Society.
2. The objects for which the Society is established are:
I. To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity
without distinction of race creed sex caste or colour.
II. To encourage the study of Comparative ReligIon Philosophy
and Science.
III. To investigate unexplained laws of Nature and the powers
latent in man.
a The holding and management of all funds raised for the above
objects.
b The purchase or acquIsition on lease or in exchange or on
Hire or by gift or otherwise of any real or personal property
and any rights or privileges necessary or convenient for the
purposes of the Society.
c The sale improvement management and development of all
or any part or the property or the Society.
d The doing of all such things as are incidental or
conducive to the attainment of the above objects or any of them
including the founding and maintenance of a library or libraries.
3. The names addresses and occupations of the persons who are
members or and form the first General Council which is the
governing body of the Society are as follows:
GENERAL COUNCIL
Ex-Officio
President-Founder: H. S. Olcott Adyar Madras Author.
Vice-President: A. P. Sinnett London England Author.
Recording Secretary: Hon. Sir S. Subramania Aiyar Madras
Justice of the High Court.
Treasurer: W. A. English M.D. Adyar Madras Retired Physician.
Alexander Fullerton General Secretary American Section 07
West 8th St. New York.
Upendra Nath Basu. B.A. LL.B. General Secretary Indian
Section Benares U.P.
Bertram Keightley M.A. General Secretary British Section 28
Albemarle St. London W.
W. G. John General Secretary Australasian Section 42 Margaret
Street Sydney N.S.W.
Arvid Knos General Secretary Scandinavian Section
Engelbrechtsgatan 07 Stockholm Sweden.
C. W. Sanders General Secretary New Zealand Section Queen
Street Auckland New Zealand.
W. B. Fricke General Secretary Netherlands Section 76
Amsteldijk Amsterdam.
Th. Pascal M.D. General Secretary French Section 59 Avenue
de la Bourdonnais Paris.
Decio Calvari General Secretary Italian Section 380 Corso
Umberto I. Rome.
Dr Rudolf Steiner General Secretary German Section 95
Kaiserallee Friedenau Berlin.
Jose M. Masso Acting General Secretary Cuban Section Havana
Cuba.
Additional
Annie Besant Benares Author [for 03 years].
G. R. S. Mead London Author [for 03 years].
Khan Bahadur Naoroji Dorabji Khandalvala Poona Special Judge [for 03 years].
Dinshaw Jivaji Edal Behram Surat Physician [for 02 years].
Francesca E. Arundale Benares Author [for 02 years]
Tammacharla Ramachandra Row Gooty Retired Sub-Judge [for 01 year].
Charles Blech Paris France Retired Manufacturer [for 01 year].
4. The Founders
Henry Steel Olcott who with the late Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
and others founded The Theosophical Society at New York United
States of America in the year 1875 shall hold during his
lifetime the position of President with the title of
'President-Founder' and he shall have alone the authority and
responsibility and shall exercise the functions provided in the
Rules and Regulations for the Executive Committee meetings of
which he may call for consultation and advice as he may desire.
5. Income and property applied to promotion of objects
The income and property of the Society whencesoever derived
shall be applied solely towards the promotion of the objects of
the Society as set forth in this Memorandum of Association and
no portion thereof shall be paid or transferred directly or
indirectly by way of dividends bonus or otherwise by way of
profits to the persons who at any time are or have been members
of the Society or to any of them or to any person claiming
through any of them: Provided that nothing herein contained shall
prevent the payment in good faith of remuneration to any officers
or servants of the Society or to any members thereof or other
person in return for any services rendered to the Society.
6. Members of General Council not answerable
No member or members of the General Council shall be answerable
for any loss arising in the administration or application of the
said trust funds or sums of money or for any damage to or
deterioration in the said trust premises unless such loss damage
or deterioration shall happen by or through his or their wilful
default or neglect.
7. Vesting of Property on dissolution
If upon the dissolution of the Society there shall remain after
the satisfaction of all its debts and liabilities any property
whatsoever the same shall not be paid to or distributed among
the members of the Society or ally of them but shall be given or
transferred to some other Society or Association Institution or
Institutions having objects similar to the objects of this
Society to be determined by the votes of not less than
three-fifths of the members of the Society present personally or
by proxy at a meeting called for the purpose or in default
thereof by such Judge or Court of Law as may have jurisdiction
in the matter.
8. Filing of rules and Regulations Memorandum
A copy of the Rules and Regulations of the said Theosophical
Society is filed with this Memorandum of Association and the
undersigned being seven of the members of the Governing Body of
the said Society do hereby certify that such copy of such Rules
and Regulations of the said Theosophical Society is correct.
As witness our several and respective hands this...day of
Mar 1905.
Witnesses to the signatures:
Sd. WM GLENNY KEAGEY
" ARTHUR RICHARDSON
" PYARE LAL
" PEROZE P. MEHERJEE
[The above witnessed the seven signatures below - Ed].
Sd H.S. OLCOTT
" W.A. ENGLISH
" SUBRAMANIAM
" FRANCESCA E. ARUNDALE
" UPENDRA NATH BASU
" ANNIE BESANT
" N.D. KHANDALVALA
Rules and Regulations to follow in due course. Ed.
Posted by Alan Bain
--
Member Theosophy International
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 05 Dec 1996 18:56:47 GMT
From: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz malcolm idoine
Subject: Universal Youth
The next posting contains a copy of the text for 'Universal Youth' a
international 'youth' magazine published in New Zeland under the the World
Thesophical Youth Federation umbrella.
If you or anyone you know might like to join and/or contribute to this
organisation please see the address details at the start of the the magazine
text.
Please note that although the fedeartion/magazine is designed by/for younger
people 'youth' is not a term of exclusion someone said a young thesophist
is one under 90 all are welcome to join / contribute.
Regards
Malcolm Idoine
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 05 Dec 1996 19:05:05 GMT
From: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz malcolm idoine
Subject: Universal Youth
Universal Youth
Newsletter of the WTYF=20
Nov 1995
Published by the World Theosophical Youth Federation New Zealand
Address:=20
Simon Webber 26 Hillcrest Rd Hamilton New Zealand
E-mail: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz =20
Marina Cesar Caixa Postal 124-Viam=E3o RS 94400-970 Brazil
E-mailasisson@vortex.ufrgs.br
Editors:Simon Webber and Charles Sitwell
Greetings!
Welcome to the Nov edition the fourth for the year of the World
Theosophical Youth Federation. We the New Zealand Young Theosophists feel
a certain "wonder" with our involvement in the WTYF. That is communicating
with our brothers around the world; questioning investigating and enquiring
into life and trying to make the world a better place through our
involvement with the WTYF.
It gives us great pleasure and inspiration when we receive the Brazilian
issue and read the events happening from all around the world. It reinforces
our message of oneness with others.
Congratulations to our new WTYF President Ulisses Borges de Resende. We
wish you all the best and will help you in every way possible. Thanks to
Arnaldo Sisson. F for holding the fort for 17 years and keeping the youth
from around the world together. We wouldn't be here today if he had not.
Arnaldo has asked us to mention in this issue that Ulisses will be in
Adyar at this year's international convention and is planning to organise
some WTYF meetings like we had last year those of you who attended last
years meetings will remember that we achieved a lot. If you will be in
Adyar this year could you keep this in mind and mention it to any other
young ones who will be attending. There will also be a WTYF youth camp 3-9
Feb 1996 at Colonia Teosfica San Rafael Argentina. Please contact
our Secretary Marina Cesar for further details.
Our experiments with the internet are proving a success. It is a fast
and efficient way of keeping in touch with each other. If any of you have
access to e-mail then send us a line sometime. It would be great to hear
from you. However we have been recieving letters via standard post and it
is wonderful to read them. We have published some of them to share with you.
It seems very appropriate that our Brazilian edition has a column titled
"Sharing the Way" because they publish our letters and thoughts.
Consequently we will now rename our correspondence column "Satellite
Shift" and call it "Sharing the Way" too.=20
This issue has as its theme "Brotherhood". There are a couple of
articles on brotherhood conveying some personal thoughts and feelings about
brotherhood. There is also a reply titled "Flora and Fauna" to the
article "Thorny Issues" printed in the Apr edition of the WTYF
newsletter. We also have correspondence from around the world including
poems and sketches. Please write with suggestions for the next theme.
Contact us by Feb at the latest as the next edition will most likely
come out in Apr. =20
We are interested at the moment in what activities members of the Round
Table and Theosophical Order of Service TOS participate in. We hope that
we could all share ideas thoughts and meditations of interest especially
with countries like New Zealand that don't have a TOS. We would also like
to develop an awareness and interest in members who can't get access to
these groups.
In NZ we are looking forward to our centennial from Jan 06 - 10 1996. We
know of some fellow young theosophists coming from Austrailia and will enjoy
meeting them and any others that may arrive from New Zealand or overseas.
This is always an exellent time for discussing a wide range of topics .
Psychological Aspects of Brotherhood
This article consists of some personal thoughts on brotherhood.
However they are not of an abstract or intellectual bent but are based on
actual psychological changes that I am experiecing. I feel it is
appropriate to share them with everyone since it was agreed in Adyar
1994/95 convention that the WTYF newsletter published from New Zealand be
a medium among other things for expressing common psychological problems
experiences and discoveries that the young people of today are going
through. And I am going through changes of this nature at the moment. =20
The Theosophical Society proposes to create a nucleus of universal
brotherhood. And I have been questioning myself for the past five years
since I joined the society what that means for me. I have read some of
the standard TS literature and have a fairly reasonable "intellectual"
understanding of what the creation of a universal brotherhood means.
However for me now it seems a step up in intensity is required if I am to
paticipate in and help create that brotherhood. =20
The literature speaks of =93buddhi=94 intelligence or in the west
=93intuition=94. To me this means a blending of mind and heart. Not=
emotional
sentimentalism devoid of cognition or mental coldness devoid of feeling
but an integration of the two. It requires that my heart be fused with my
mind. The Bagavadgita refers to a dissolution of the mind=92s continuity and
one of the preliminary statements in =93Light on the Path=94 refers to the=
soul
having its feet washed in the blood of the heart; ie sacrifice. I may be
wrong about this blending process but that is all I have to go on because
in the final analysis I have only got myself to rely on. And this goes for
everyone because ahead of us is that solitary trek from the =93alone to=
the
Alone=94 that we all must undertake at some time or another.
So my investigation into what the TS means to me and why I am in it if
it is to be answered requires that this process eventuate. I cannot just
sit back and be a mental participant in the TS as I have been in the past.
I also think it has to do with my "Svabhava" or what is expected of me
in this lifetime my life calling. I am now 29 and I believe that
astrologically at the age of 28 Saturn returns to where it was when we were
born. Thus for 28 years I have "grown into" where I left off in my last
incarnation and am now beginning a period of new growth and lessons. And I
think it is a birth in consciousness. A blending of heart and mind and
therefore operating in the world with love and compassion for all sentient
beings. But for this to occur requires that a price be paid. And that
price is "me". My little selfish separate self. And this is the
psychological change or dilemma that is occuring in my life now.=20
Inherent in this psychological process is fear which is a concomitant
of this change. And I live with fear every day of my life. In a book titled
"Zanoni" which HPB recommended that every occultist read fear or the
Dweller on the Threshold is in direct antagonism with faith natures
messenger of reasurancce. My dissolving of the mind's continuity brings
about fear since I am afraid of losing my separate self the known and
experienceing something better; faith - a union in consciousness with the
Divine this has been expressed in poetry as =91the dewdrop slipping into=
the
shining sea=92. However in not giving up the known or my little ego=
then
I will not experience "something better" and thereby be able to help create
by the Divine acting through me the nucleus of universal brotherhood which
we aspire to in joining the Theosophical Society.
Do any of you feel that this is happening to you? Do you think that if
our nucleus of universal brotherhood is to be created that it requires such
a process?=20
I guess all this means is that we must keep going through our own
difficulties because fundamentally "ALL IS ONE". When I receive letters
from my brothers around the world and read what's happening in the
"Universal Human Family" it puts things back in perspective. I feel joy
happiness and also feel that we are doing something worthwhile in carrying
out the society=92s objectives through the WTYF. And this keeps me going
because if I don't try and do my "little bit" then our endeavours will be
worse off rather than better. =20
So I would like to leave you with some inspiration; something to help
you through the dark stages in your life. Something which continues to help
me through this current psychological dilemma. It is a poem I wrote. But
when I say this I didn't really write it although it was my hand that
jotted it down on a piece of paper. It was given to me from "on high" if
you like. Three years ago I had a perception. I had been asking myself
questions such as; "What am I to do with my life?" and "What are the
answers?" when this perception occurred. I was lying in bed on a sunny
morning looking out the door watching the sea trees and birds when an
intuitive vision filled my mind accompanied with feelings of wonder. I had
to bring this perception "down to earth" and the result is the poem you see
on the opposite page..
It was the answer I had been looking for. I share it with you all
because it may help you with the hand that life has dealt you to play.
Take care. May we be True to Ourselves and make the world a better=
place.
Simon Webber
New Zealand
Looking within
Fear greets my gaze.
Retreat!
Worldly morality meaningless to me
The relentless hunter allowing no escape.
At the crossroads and choice confronts me
A sand storm rages directly where I stand
To remain here is to die.
Directions of course! and eagerly I look:-
Behind the grasses almost hidden
Reclines the solitary signpost -
Reeling in horror
My dreams and hopes shattered
There are only two words
which read =93Look within=94
Simon Webber
The Universal Brotherhood of Humanity
We congratulate you for choosing this theme. It is a very important one
with a really crucial importance to the mission of the TS. Universal
Brotherhood is said by the Mahatmas in Their letters to A.P.Sinnett to be
the leading idea of the TS. It is the heart of the first Object.
All important things seem not to be easy ones. And this subject
although it looks to be very simple surely is a difficult one. Otherwise
why would in one of the Letters it be written: "...the general misconception
of the aims and objects of the Society that paralyses its progress - nothing
else. There's no want of definitiveness in these objects were they but
properly explained." M. L.38 p. 251 So if a general misconception was
there and according to our point of view - is still there - then this is
NOT an easy matter. And so this aspect also reinforces the importance of
this subject.
Due to the limited space of a newsletter we will comment on just 03
points. First; usually Univ. Brotherhood is seen as a virtue something that
we must develop ie. an aspiration instead of something already and
actually existing in Nature ie. a law or fact in Nature. Second that the
two main aspects of this law are from a common parenthood or source which
implies equal values of the brothers and sisters and the existence of
different ages of younger and elder brothers which implies different levels
of capacities or maturity. And third that the first Object of the TS
points to the formation of an organisation where its rules its model its
structure are derived or in harmony with the two main aspects of this law
of Nature.
As far as we can see the two main aspects of this kind of relation
similar to that of brothers brotherhood is that there is the same
parenthood and second that there are different ages younger and elder
brothers.=20
These two aspects MAY look to be very simple and not very relevant.
Indeed that is what the world tend to think about them - that this is very
nice to say but that it is not real that it is something naive etc. And
in reality the leading thought currents of the world those that organise
or give birth to the main social institutions of the world like liberalism
and Marxism for example do not understand and more than that they negate
in their central premises the law/fact of the Univ. Brotherhood of Humanity
since they affirm different things a different picture with different main
aspects or axioms in relation to humanity. If we go into their main or
central premises it is very easy to see that they =93see=94 humanity not as=
a
universal brotherhood but as something else. And out of that central
blunder are generated terrible results lots of suffering and conflict. This
is so because they generate social systems institutions based on wrong
premises and that are therefore unable to organise the human family
harmoniously.=20
They negate these two main aspects: same parenthood same source which
implies same value; but also at the same time different ages different
levels of evolution which implies different levels of capacities or=
maturity.=20
These two aspects are negated. Just to give one example we have in the
world today mass suffrage all are considered to a great extent as having
similar capacities to judge national and international issues - which is a
blunder and out of that kind of social institution so many people unworthy
of being governors etc are elected.
As to the first aspect just a quotation from Dr. Besant: "... has not
Emerson taught the same lesson? ... he taught the great truth that Nature
only looks cruel while we oppose her; she is our strongest helper when we
join ourselves to her. For every law that crushes you when you oppose it
lifts you when you are united to it. ...' "Brotherhood then in its full
meaning is a law in Nature. Stress has more than once been laid on this in
our meetings but not too much stress has thereon been laid. For it is the
very object the desire of our work that brotherhood shall become
practical in society and it will never become practical until men
understand that it is a law and not only an aspiration. ... in that very
way we have preached brotherhood. And yet brotherhood is but so little known
..." "The Spiritual Life" vol II p. 160.
The next aspect is that to understand this law we must see that its
two main aspects are the unity of a common parenthood and the
differentiation of "ages" of evolutionary levels. Here again just a
quotation from the pen of Dr. Besant: "But to understand Brotherhood we
must remember that evolution proceeds by reincarnation under the law of
karma. ... Now most of you believe these two great teachings and in your
individual lives they play a might part. Why do you not apply them to
nations as well as to individuals to social problems as well as to the
helping of your own personal development ? As the ideas of reincarnation and
karma make their way in the western world which has the habit of applying
principles to practice I think we shall find this Ideal of Brotherhood
under the law of reincarnation and karma will solve many of the problems
under which the world is groaning in our time." "The Ideals of Theosophy"
p. 21 =20
Here it is important to note that the leading thought currents of our
times are not in harmony with this law of the universal brotherhood of
humanity. We just have to examine the fundamental principles of Marxism and
of Liberalism to see the truth of the previous statement. We have just to
compare the false egalitarian patterns of their principles and the
consequence of their social systems with statements like the following one
to see how distant they are" "That great principle of Reincarnation must
ever go hand in hand with the principle of Brotherhood; if Brotherhood is to
be applied if it is to be made a working principle of ordinary life. For it
is out of these differences of age that grows up all the possibilities of an
ordered and happy society amongst ourselves." Dr. Annie Besant "The
Changing World" p. 79.
As to the third aspect again a quotation now from the Letters: "The
truths and mysteries of occultism constitute indeed a body of the highest
spiritual importance at once profound and practical for the world at large.
... they were given to you but for their practical bearing on the
interests of mankind. ... They have to prove both destructive and
constructive - destructive in the pernicious errors of the past in the old
creeds and superstitions which suffocate in their poisonous embrace like the
Mexican weed nigh all mankind; but constructive of new institutions of a
genuine practical Brotherhood of Humanity where all will become co-workers
of nature ... The Chiefs want a "Brotherhood of Humanity" a real
Universal Fraternity started; an institution which would make itself known
throughout the world and arrest the attention of the highest minds." K.H.
L. 06 p. 23/24 So it seems to us that the TS should be a miniature of
these "new institutions" a model or example to be copied and applied by
the highest minds to the solutions "consistent solutions" of the worlds
urgent problems. Unfortunately in most places and certainly at the
international level the most important one the TS is but a poor copy of
the institutions today dominating in the world. Too bad but who cares?=20
Marina & Arnaldo Sisson. F.
Brazil
Sharing the Way
Correspondence from around the globe
Dear Simon & Charles
May you be well and in peace! Congratulations for the newsletter
Universal Youth - Ed. I'll comment more to the e-mail address but it is
very good. Now is just to send you the official convocation to the WTYF
elections. =20
I'll write soon to the e-mail!
Lots of love from Arnaldo & Marina.
Past WTYF Chairman & Secretary Brazil
To the Universal Youth
I would like to ask a question which you may like to include in a
future edition of Universal Youth or the Young Theosophist and invite the
responses of others.
Do you think that karma works on the objective principles of "good" and
"bad"?
I enjoy and appreciate Universal Youth and the Young Theosophist so
thank you all for your efforts.
David Hutchinson
Queensland Australia.
Dear friend Simon
I got both your letters and I am taking the chance to share my opinion
with you. Regarding your newsletter [Universal Youth] it is difficult for me
to say something about it because until now I haven't done much to
participate. It is always easy to criticise when you haven't done anything
and don't know how difficult it is to face all the problems that arise in
creating and publishing such a newsletter. But I want to be honest. I guess
that is what this newsletter needs to become to a good one and I also guess
that is what you want and its not meant personally what I am saying but
only regarding the form of the newsletter.
I don't like it as it is up to now. I feel myself one voice in the youth
crowd. I see no other reason for a youth newsletter than pointing to an
ideal. Making it clear by discussing and understanding it with oneself and
helping to create it an ideal which is moving within the hearts of those
who are young. In achieving that we have to understand what we are writing
and why we are writing it. I am sure many of those writing in the last issue
were not sure about these points.
If we don't learn see and understand how much our ideas are a mixture
of personal interests and those of an impersonal idealistic nature how then
will we be able in the future to turn the world the right way when this
task having the status and position to change outward conditions for the
better will be put on the shoulders of those who see themselves as one of
the youth today? Look at the issue - things are put to heights which the
person likes or dislikes which are told with an unattractive image. So much
is said in relation to the personal judgement of the writer. And that for
sure puts the ideal beyond the possibility of reach because the essential
problems are discussed on a personal level - discussions that will be
endless and not lead to the manifestation of the ideal until one
understands the condition under which he/she suffers.
Well that is the reason why this youth magazine should point to this
condition first of all be aware of it because when that takes place there
will automatically be the words which will move the idealistic nature of the
reader. The ideal has to be freed out of the boundaries which rape and
reduce it to a rain shelter of the egoistic nature. Only then can the two
factors mentioned above status and position to change outward conditions
be used by hands which are capable of creating a whole work of art which
will be the change that so many try to bring about but who have failed until
now.
Forgive me my words if they should sound hard but I feel it is so
important to cut this line of unconsciously continuing mistakes which is
the result of the misunderstanding of a person/group believing that they are
changing things when what they do is mainly a shifting on the same
horizontal level and not a vertical journey up to the top. That is why I had
to write this consciously. Also my own failures and mistakes in this world
are big.
Honestly taking your hand with mine and hugging you
Yours Andr=E9 Schumacher
BerlinGermany
Dear Simon
Thank you for your letter the newsletters and the t-shirt it is very
nice. All greetings for the Young Theosophists over there I have the photo
you gave me.... I am happy to be at home sometimes I remember Adyar it is
very special place for me and a very good experience to have lived there for
some time. I am sure I will come back again.=20
Here I attend meetings in my lodge and my old friends are really nice to
meet. Of all the members I am still the youngest can you believe it? but
now there are two more young women they just joined a few days ago.
Here I send you the photocopies of some sketches that I have done for
the newsletter and also a poem which is below the statue of the unwanted
dog in Barcelona's zoo [see page 15].
Surely it happens everywhere here in my town it is very common to see
at the end of the big holidays of the year many dogs and cats that have been
derelict. This is a tourist area and the poor animals are sometimes
beautiful ones that do not know how to survive in the streets.
In my village which is more or less 15 km from Alicante a not very big
town there are no organisations that can do something about it. Meanwhile
the cats are more and in worse conditions. The saddest thing is that in the
University they require cats for vivisection and they pay some money to the
people who bring them in with no questions.
I will inquire to the Animal Protection Society of Alicante to see if
something can be done but somebody told me already that they just put down
the cats. I shall check it up.
Well that is all for now. You also take care. With affection
Silvia.
AlicanteSpain
Dear Lara May
I received your letter dated 9th Feb regarding your initiative in
setting up a network and commend your people for this very useful
enterprise. As far as we are concerned Mt Helena is a retreat centre that
does not have a membership; it is a facility used by Perth Lodge members. I
shall ensure that they have copies of the questionnaire and that they carry
out your request
I have very fond memories of NZ where I did a lecture tour some years
ago. At this time I presented a number of workshops on spiritual awareness
techniques and many participants asked me if I was interested in writing a
book about the subject - well I did and it was published about a year ago.
The book is entitled 'The Spiritual Path to Complete Fulfilment'. As far as
I have been able to ascertain there have been no sales in NZ and that is a
pity since the idea was initiated in your country and the book's content
should appeal to all theosophists particularly young ones who wish to
practice self-culture rather than just talk about it!
Perhaps you may be able to assist by ensuring the TS bookshops are
stocking it the TS libraries are putting it on the shelf - and members are
aware of its existence. I enclose a copy of the publishers leaflet for your
information [Phillip Harris's book is distributed by Allen & Unwin Ltd].
The continuous accusation levelled at our TS is that the members are
'head-oriented' and do little except talk. I don't think that that is
entirely true but I do know that many members have complained about the
absence of many modern works based on theosophy and with practical approach.
This book of mine is an attempt to remedy the situation
Thank your for your letter - I hope that the venture prospers and if I
can help in any way let me know.
Your fraternally
Phillip Harris
Mt Helena Western Australia
Dear Simon
Thanks for your letter addresses and newsletter "Universal Youth". I
have made copies and distributed these to the YT's here. I have also
encouraged them to write to other YT's and may contribute to your=
Newsletter.
It was great to meet you in Adyar and hear ideas on how to stimulate the
world TS Youth Federation. I very much like the format and content of your
newsletter. Well done! I am so pleased you are doing this work. Caring
people are a rare breed. They oil the gears of Social life and without them
the world would be in a very sorry state.
Thankyou for caring. Warmest Fraternal Greetings
Tom Davis
Pretoria South Africa
Dear Lara-May
I am glad that there are groups of YT's obviously functioning under
less stress than what we did. But Melbourne is known as somewhat of a Black
Hole as far as esoteric groups are concerned. Normal groups anywhere
around the world but Melbourne! We had a YT group in Melbourne for about
3-4 years 3rd incarnation. Starting off small but a good group at the=
end.
We continued informally but encouraged each other to give a short talk
10-20 minutes followed by a discussion. We also held many workshops - we
were all a wealth of information on pet interests - topics included
crystals music and metamorphic technique. Participation was our goal -
Positive and Inter-active theosophy.
I hope that this may be of some interest to you. And I would be
interested to know how you are set up there. Good luck with your endeavours.
Yours sincerely
Caroline van Dissel
Endeavour HillsAustralia
formerly of the Melbourne YT's.
Dear Simon
Thanks for the paper. I attended both the European School and the
International Congress in Stockholm. We are planning to build up a European
youth section but I see no reason to limit it to Europe. Still those ideas
are hollow but someday!!! I'll soon send an e-mail!
Take care
Andreas Borg
Gothenburg Sweden.
Dear Simon
Hello!. I received your newsletter Apr issue along with your letter.
Thank you for the same. Then how are you Simon? Please give my regards to Mr
Charles; how is he? I intend to attend the Dec convention 95. Please
do write according to the availability of time - and send your newsletters
as usual. I am glad to receive the materials from you.
Praying for your happiness and peace of mind.
With lots of love and affection
Anand. R.
Kerela India.
Flora & Fauna
To lose our native flora and fauna or kill their enemies? that is the
question.
While this question is being asked and answered with some intensity from
Alaska to Africa and Auckland it isn't despite appearing to be the
question. It is only an attempt an early-days first attempt at trying to
frame the question and of course it is a good place to start. But now that
we suspect it isn't quite right as a question it only contains two
possibilities: kill or have something of ours killed we can poke around a
little to see what can be done to increase its range and depth and
sophistication.
One could begin by asking some question which seem likely to provide
useful partial starting points:
1. In what sense are native flora and fauna ours? We certainly are not
their creators. Perhaps their creators however envisaged have another view
of the entire conflict? Should we take their viewpoint into consideration?
2. If we take the nature spirit view of creation it raises the question
of whether we might consider consulting the senior Rabbit Nature Spirit and
the Elder Possum Nature Spirit prior to putting their offspring to death.
They might like equal time. Could we expect to get an unbiased reply? If
rabbits are seen to be damaging pasture we might also consider consulting
with the nature spirits behind the various grass species for a balanced=
view.
3. Any such consultation might be more profitable if approached from the
realisation that we have precious little knowledge of the purposes behind
any particular groupings of life whether bacterial fungal animal or
vegetable. From a theosophical perspective we might as well add mineral.
4. Suppose we proceed a little further by imagining some possible
answers. It is likely that the Rabbit Nature Spirit would say =93We have
placed these creatures in your country so that you may slaughter them. Go
for it=94?
5. Well perhaps the reply might be this one: In spite of my best efforts
I have lost control of Rabbit kind though they live and breath in my being
though every drop of life that courses through their veins and little
carrot-loving souls first courses through mine. Accordingly I am unable to
right the balance of the portion of nature that has been assigned to me and
it is a good thing that mankind is ready with guns traps and poison to
assist me in my efforts to evolve a Rabbit group soul.
6. Is there any possibility of adding some concrete experience to the
above perhaps fanciful perhaps real but distant imaginings? I have
intervened at least two times this lifetime in a seeming dispute between
several natural forces in nature. The outcomes which were decidedly
unexpected have served to severely caution me about the wisdom of thinking
I knew on which side to throw my weight. One was a fight between an adult
goose and a wild fox the second was between a native grass clearing and a
bushfire both stories too long to relate here. The point I wish to convey
is that in both instances my non-theosophical choice was very quickly shown
to be wrong.
Finally I recall a passage I read in a mystical work so long ago that I
cannot remember its author or title but the scene and the incident is vivid
in my memory: A pupil has just been accepted as a new disciple of a master
and has a week to tidy up his affairs before he must move on to an unknown
but welcome stage on the Path. He is contemplating doing some long overdue
weeding of a useless patch of blackberries and bracken when a disembodied
voice gravely reminds him that he hasn't a clue as to the destiny of that
plot of land nor the needs of its vegetable or animal residents and he
would therefore further his own and its development by just leaving it
severely lone which the reader presumes is what he does.
One seems to hear again faintly in the air in the more than 2000 year
old Greek phrase from Hippocratic Oath First Do No Harm. None of the above
is meant to suggest that there is an easy answer. If there were such this
wouldn't really be the Plant called Earth but there are certainly better
questions and towards them we slowly work our way.
MrGladney Oakley=20
NSW Australia
Your breed=92s unimportant
unimportant your name
your life so short
that you give to man.
It=92s the faithful offer
of your love with no bounds
that is in your eyes=20
of shining flame
until the last day=20
final and ignored
of your sad life
>From a statue in Barcelona zoo
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 05 Dec 1996 22:39:59 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Re: Adyar Rules
>
> THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
> FOUNDED 17 NOVEMBER 1875 INCORPORATED 03 APRIL 1905
>
> MEMORANDUM OF ASSOCIATION
Correction to previous posting:
>
> 7. Vesting of Property on dissolution
>
> If upon the dissolution of the Society there shall remain after
> the satisfaction of all its debts and liabilities any property
> whatsoever the same shall not be paid to or distributed among
> the members of the Society or ally of them but shall be given or
^^^^
any
Alan
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 06 Dec 1996 06:39:14 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Krotona Schedule Winter/Spring 96
Doss:
Re the Krotona programs. I've never attended them in person but I've
learned from many of them on tape. There was a time before I had my
lens implants when I couldn't read & studied exclusively from
Krotona tapes. I'd say most of them are
worthwhile. Every now 'n so often you hit a klinker. If you can go
therego if not if you have time to listen to tapes get their list & buy
some or borrow some from the Libary in Wheaton. They have a lot of
them.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 07:18:33 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net
Subject: server-up test
testing if server is up.
jem@vnet.net
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 08:23:38 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: To: Simon Webber
Dear Simon
Thanks for putting that really inspiring newsletter of the WTYF on
theos-news. To comment on just one thing it contains you talk about
the fusion of heart & mind. I think you're fortunate to have intuited
this before you were 30. I came upon it in late middle age.
Most important we e-mail participants who belong to
the United States Theosophical movement have
just been talking about what we could do to attract more young
people to Theosophy. I think I've heard of the WTYF vaguely...
and years ago but is it in
existence in our country now? And what can we especially the younger
members do to have an active Youth organization in our country? There
are several young people on this mailing list interested in this question
& I think a few of us oldsters are too. We need to attract more young
people to our organization. Anything you can tell us about how to do
this would be most welcome.
Liesel
--OAA19963.818364855/future.dreamscape.com--
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 18:10:28 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: testing new configuration
hi -
this is a message to test the e-mail configuration on Vnet
peace -
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 18:23:51 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: lists are up
hi -
It appears that the lists are back up.
testing.
john mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 18:23:51 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: lists are up
hi -
It appears that the lists are back up.
testing.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 18:32:48 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: back up for sure
hi -
Vnet went through some growing pains over the last couple days.
Hopefully the problems are solved now.
sorry for the delays.
peace -
john mead
jem@vnet.net
p.s. I'll spare you the details :-
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 18:32:48 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: back up for sure
hi -
Vnet went through some growing pains over the last couple days.
Hopefully the problems are solved now.
sorry for the delays.
peace -
john mead
jem@vnet.net
p.s. I'll spare you the details :-
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 08 Dec 1996 18:32:48 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: back up for sure
hi -
Vnet went through some growing pains over the last couple days.
Hopefully the problems are solved now.
sorry for the delays.
peace -
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 02:04:36 GMT
From: Sy Ginsburg <72724.413@compuserve.com>
Subject: Copy of: Copy of: Bylaw revisions pose threat to T.S.I.A.
Ann:
>I've also wondered if long-time members view newcomers with a certain amount of
>suspicion wondering if they'll try to change the established order. I get the
>impression they are questioning whether the newbie can make the grade stick it
>out and keep up with the group. Perhaps suspicion and skepticism regarding
>newcomers should be changed to helpfulness and optimism.
I have never been suspicious of newbies. Frustrated maybe but not
suspicious. I don't expect newbies to "keep up" with some of my
discussions. After studying for almost 30 years I would hope that I
am able to talk over their heads at some point. While this is
probably frustrating to them I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
a member at large and except for computer networking have
not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
others.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 11:24:56 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
>If I may add a bit from de Purucker's Studies in Occult Philosophy.
>"Do you know there is a way of living in thought rather than in thoughts.
> This illustrates the dual action of the manasic
>faculty the lower and the higher manas."
>This strikes me as coming about through meditation for one and when this
>state is operating even on and off then knowledge takes on a new meaning.
>It rises above personal likes and dislikes and then theosophy in its purer
>form becomes a part of us and is able to influence our inner self.
>Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
The classic meditation given in Tibetan Buddhism for this
is to watch each of your thoughts drift through your mind. Then try to
concentrate on the tiny space in between where one thought ends
and another begins. This space is empty like the sky and is exactly
what Purucker is talking about. Thanks for the quote Bee.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 11:26:06 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
Eldon to Alan:
>You make a good point here that we should be responsive to someone's
>*intent* and not what they literally say. If someone is wanting
>sympathy and a shoulder to cry on the appropriate reply would be
>different than if they were seeking to understand *why* something
>happened.
This is exactly the point that I tried to make awhile back
about the necessity for at least some psychism. The only way to
know how to really help a person is to be able to look into his/her
heart and sense what is wrong and what the real need is.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 11:26:34 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ethical Apotheosis of Jerry
Eldon:
>Is the term "abyss" meant to imply a "dark night of the soul"
>experience for those that cross it? Then it would be akin to
>the western experience of transcending the personality of
>rising to the pure experience of unqualified consciousness.
They are different but similar thing. The Abyss is
an objective "place" in the invisible worlds around us. It is
the demarcation line between the upper three cosmic planes
arupa and the lower four rupa. The Dark-Night-of-the-Soul
is an anguishing experience that most of us go through at
some point in which the human mind eventually
comes to terms with the fact that its limited nature will never
allow it to fully understand or comprehend the infinite spirit.
Technically the Abyss marks the end or beginning of
the Ego not the ego/personality which is limited to the
3rd plane. Thus the Abyss stands just above the
Reincarnating Ego and just below the atma.
>It would be more like a "sweet melting" leading
>to a sense of "eternal delight" rather than a "dive into
>the dark unknown" or a "shattering".
It is "eternal delight" to atmic consciousness
but the Abyss is a "dark unknown" of incoherence and
insanity e.g. the unconscious to the ego/personality.
It is exactly what the ego sees when it faces the
unconscious in Jungian terms. Not a pretty sight
because the ego sees its own death within.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 12:21:04 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: ERGATES
ERGATES is a quarterly publication produced by the U.L.T. San Francisco which
attempts to connect all interested Theosophists regardless of affiliation
around the world.
The 199512 issue is out and available FREE to any interested
subscribers. ERGATES survives solely on donations which are welcome but not
required.
Current feature articles include "Observations from the Internet" about
diversity on Theos-L "Worship" reports from Theosophical centers as
far-flung as Bombay Mexico City and Belgium interesting book reviews and a
calendar of events including plans for the upcoming centenary of William Q.
Judge's passing.
If interested in a free subscription or to submit articles news or events
for the calendar please send your mailing address to ULTnews@aol.com.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 12:24:47 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: To:Donna
Donna--
I would also recommend the short introductory book on Theosophy by William Q.
Judge THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY. It was written last century 1894 I think
so the English is a little Victorian but the teaching is clear and accurate.
Mr. Judge worked with HPB for nearly 20 years and was a Founder of the
Theosophical Movement in the West with HPB and Mr. Olcott.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 12:29:09 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
Eldon --
You wrote
"Members of a theosophical group may not have a guru but KH and M do.
They've said that their obedience to their teacher the Mahachohan comes
first and they'd rather let the T.S. sink than obey a single request of
their teacher."
I'm almost positive you meant DISOBEY. Probably obvious but I thought it
worth pointing out. We find the same problem in ancient texts the scribe
forgets to put in the negative. Can make for very difficult teaching without
an interpreter who knows what is meant eh?
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 13:10:50 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
ET
To gain knowledge the first step is intellectual study. Then comes
a form of putting it all together using the intuition and prajna.
And one further deepens the knowledge *as one shares it*. An idea
is not truly one's own until it has been shared repeatedly with others.
RI
But to gain *spiritual* knowledge the first step is meditation the middle
step is meditation and the the last step is meditation. Intellectual study
is perhaps never more valuable than when its meager payoffs for happiness and
the adept conduct of private life prompts one to do even more meditation.
Intellectual study of theosophical ideas remains interesting nonetheless
because of all the different ways others have tried to articulate what one is
learning for oneself. It is doubtful however that one can actually
"deepen" spiritual knowledge by "repeatedly sharing" ideas which are
primarily the result of intellectual study--regardless of how much
"intuition" and "prajna" one feels has been used in putting the package
together. Ten minutes of reading ten hours of thought and ten days of
meditating is the recipe for producing the Wisdom you can't share but the
smile you can. . . .
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 14:28:16 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
I want to add on to those comments.
With all the glitches I think my 01 suggestion didn;'t go through.
By now I have several others.
I think a good start for anyone would be Shirley Nicholson's
pamphlet "A Program for Living The Spiritual Life". In brief the 04
suggested phases of the program with lots of leeway as to how to do
it are 1. Study 2.Meditation 3. Changing Yourself 4. Service.
There are brief lists of books to read at the end of each section
giving a beginner a perfect start.
Also Ed Abdill has made basic theosophy videos. I've been waiting
forever to get them to show them to my group of newcomers but Ed is
still working on the manual which'll go with the videos.
Also a few days ago there was news from the World Theosophical
Youth Federation which is either non-existent or very dormant in the
US. I wish the young people on the mailing list would get in touch
with these guys & get something going in this country. They were
talking about putting a facsimile of their membership applicatiion on
theos-l.
As for a certificate in Theosophical studies I don't see anything
wrong with it provided the person going for the certificate is given
enough latitude to be able to study theosophy to his/her own liking.
If it's a bunch of prescribed subject material after the basics
I'm against it too. It depends upon how it's done.
As for viewing newcomers with suspicion I'm not sure that it's
newcomers & not people who don't belong to the ES. I've gotten it
too & i've been in for a long time. I always have to prove again &
again that I know soemthing about Theosophy. I think it would be
great if olsder more seasoned theosophists would be helpful to the
new ones. I've been trying to do that but what I get from the
Library is "Don't send me anybody new. We have enough to do." That's
not very helpful. Maybe they don't have enough money for more staff.
Wel then maybe they could get more volunteers.
In the same vein I don't approve of the By-laws revision that says
newcomers have to wait for 02 years to be able to vote. What for?
I hope ther aren't tooo many typing errors on the message. I can
only see the right half of what I'm writing & don't know how to
correct it
Liesel.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 14:32:20 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: God loves you
Serge King in 01 of his books has a really nice exercise in
conjuction with this. He tells you to imagine that you're being
cradled in the arms of some immense loving being. It's the most
wonderful sensation.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 15:13:58 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: TI
Dear Rich
What's ERGATES?
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 15:46:08 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Copy of: Copy of: TSA by-law revisions
Sy
Just as a side light when our Onondaga Provisional Study Center was
approved last year I was told that we had to do a course on basic
Theosophy before we could be approved as a permanent study center.
We were given a choice of 02 ... Emogene Simons' Intro to Theosophy
which is very antiquated or Doss McDavid's "Intro to Esoteric
Principles" which it says in the blurp is "a more advanced course".
I haven't looked at that but I'm not going to bore my people to
death. I objected but I do see that giving such a course to a new
group is a good idea provided there's a live one available.
I"m waiting for Ed Abdill's video tapes but
they've been stalled for I think almost a year. Jerry & Apr
Hejka-Ekins did a video tape on Basic T. a number of year ago but I
found that unimaginative & not at all inspiring.
Thought you'd like to know that they ask something else besides the
3 objects. When I joined all you had to agree to was the Brotherhood
of Man.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 21:59:25 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: God loves you
> To : Paul Johnson:
> I like what you had to say. I must ask however if you truly and deeply
> believe that God is a He or whether it is just through habit that you use
> that pronoun. It seems to me the "father" idea was the only exceptable one
> at such an intensely patriarchal historical time as when Jesus walked the
> earth and the notion of parental love was best expressed by the "father"
> image. If God truly is a He it means not only that he has a sexual identity
> but that sexual identity makes "Him" closer to half of the world's
> population and makes the other half seem less than human. It is sort of
> like imagining that God is white or something.
> Anne
.. I heard she was green :-
Seriously Anne I am really pleased to see you raising this
question. One of the reasons for my promoting the idea of
Theosophy International with its own version of the original
Adyar three objects was to help move spiritual and mutual-aid
concerns into the new age or the 21st century whichever.
Of course God does not and cannot have a sexual identity yet
the language which supposes this persists and those like
myself who protest are either ignored or insulted though not
insulted on theos-l.
A while back before you signed up to the list I posted an
article of mine on this which also appeared in the UK
~Theosophical Journal~ from which it attracted - unbelievably -
only hostile responses called "I'm Alright Jill."
If you would like I can e-mail a copy of this privately to you.
Alan Bain D.D.
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 22:12:09 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: TI
Dear Rich
Thanks for the reprint of the TI article in ERGATES. Smail
copies of anything can be sent to me thus:
Dr. A.M.Bain
14 Tyndall's Park Road
Clifton BRISTOL BS8 1PY
England.
Unlisted phone
If you seen anything of mine on the list or in the archives
which might be of use in the ULT newsletter feel free to use it
free of charge though a copyright mention would be appreciated.
The "Dr." bit comes from a D.D. awarded by St. Ephrem's
Institute for Eastern Christianity Studies Solna Sweden in
1985. Not a lot of people know that. Even fewer care. :-
Keep the faith
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 22:21:14 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: bounced mail resent
> Re:
>
> "We are the chosen few;
> there ain't no room in heaven for you."
>
> This is to let the TI membership know that in my younger years I got
> out of being one of the Chosen People as well as I could and that I'm
> not about to get tangled up in that kind of provincialism again.
>
> Liesel
I hope NONE of us will!
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 22:21:42 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: bounced mail resent
> It's true also as your story implies that if we get too deep
> in the metaphysics it can end up sounding like gibberish!
> But we're fortunate to live in an age when we can openly explore
> metaphysics without fear of persecution. A few centuries back
> we'd be burned at the stake for such radical ideas as reincarnation
> and karma.
>
> -- Eldon
True. However in my time I have been threatened with the modern
equivalent of persecution as a "blasphemer" of theosophical
dogmas. Sounds like the TSA is having similar problems with
some of its members right now ....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 22:21:58 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: bounced mail resent
> Alan:
>
> >As I see it the question in Kabalist
> >terms is how safely to direct people to the Abyss in the first
> >place - you can't cross it until you get there. For
> >non-Kabalists I am talking about the gap between lower and
> >higher manas here or similar.
>
> Is the term "abyss" meant to imply a "dark night of the soul"
> experience for those that cross it? Then it would be akin to
> the western experience of transcending the personality of
> rising to the pure experience of unqualified consciousness.
> An eastern depiction of the same experience would need a
> different term. It would be more like a "sweet melting" leading
> to a sense of "eternal delight" rather than a "dive into
> the dark unknown" or a "shattering".
>
> -- Eldon
Not quite in my version. It is a reaching "upward" or "inward"
to a different dimension or plane. A useful comparison is the
apostle Paul's write-up on the "third heaven" experience in 01
Corinthians. Imagery ceases and there is the possibility of an
experience which some have called "darkness visible."
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 22:42:48 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Thoughts
>
> The classic meditation given in Tibetan Buddhism for this
> is to watch each of your thoughts drift through your mind. Then try to
> concentrate on the tiny space in between where one thought ends
> and another begins. This space is empty like the sky and is exactly
> what Purucker is talking about. Thanks for the quote Bee.
>
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy International
Another one to try it can be done is to *observe* just ONE
thought arrive and watch it go. Where does it come from and
to where does it go?
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 22:46:33 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Abyss
>
Re: "The Abyss"
>
> It is "eternal delight" to atmic consciousness
> but the Abyss is a "dark unknown" of incoherence and
> insanity e.g. the unconscious to the ego/personality.
> It is exactly what the ego sees when it faces the
> unconscious in Jungian terms. Not a pretty sight
> because the ego sees its own death within.
>
> Jerry S.
.. and then you have to jump into the hole if you actually want to get
anywhere. Gulp!
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 09 Dec 1996 23:24:32 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
>From: Jerry Schueler 764001474
>
>RE: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
>
>>If I may add a bit from de Purucker's Studies in Occult Philosophy.
>>"Do you know there is a way of living in thought rather than in thoughts.
>
>> This illustrates the dual action of the manasic
>>faculty the lower and the higher manas."
>>This strikes me as coming about through meditation for one and when this
>>state is operating even on and off then knowledge takes on a new meaning.
>>It rises above personal likes and dislikes and then theosophy in its purer
>>form becomes a part of us and is able to influence our inner self.
>>Bee Brown
>Member Theosophy International
>
> The classic meditation given in Tibetan Buddhism for this
>is to watch each of your thoughts drift through your mind. Then try to
>concentrate on the tiny space in between where one thought ends
>and another begins. This space is empty like the sky and is exactly
>what Purucker is talking about. Thanks for the quote Bee.
>
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy International
Is it possible to say that an empty space thinks also? That is the only way
I can think off to describe it. The brain seems to have deferred to the mind
and thoughts come from somewhere else via the now quieter brain which no
longer thinks madly about everything and everything. Everything just sort of
'is' and life takes on a smoother troublefree path. >
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 00:35:52 GMT
From: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz malcolm idoine
Subject: Re: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
>Is it possible to say that an empty space thinks also? That is the only way
>I can think off to describe it. The brain seems to have deferred to the mind
>and thoughts come from somewhere else via the now quieter brain which no
>longer thinks madly about everything and everything. Everything just sort of
>'is' and life takes on a smoother troublefree path. >
>>
>Bee Brown
>Member Theosophy International
>
An observation of mine is about the relatioship bewteen thought and its
translation into words. The observation is that the 'thoughts' are
independent of thier translation into words; that thoughts exists before
thier translation.
Thoughts seam to appear in a whole lump it seems to take time and
concentration to make the transistion into words. I am not not multilingual
so would like input from anyone that is - "Do toughts exist independantly of
the language you are thinking in?". Also there is the experience of 'not
being able to find the word' ie the thought exists before its linguistic
expression.
I don't know how to analyse this in terms of higher mind / lower mind /
brain etc. Does anywone haeve any input?
Anyway I have used this as a technique of meditation:- to try and stay in
that space where thoughts are thoughts but before they become words. I
found it a very effective way to 'quiet the mind' and gain insites into the
mind's working.
You can gain also gain an appreciation of the 'problems' of the translation
service. There is certainly and reduction and compression happening.
I would love some people to try this and give me some feedback.
This also opens up ideas about communictaion and its limitations - great
communicators seem to transmitt the thought as a whole to their audience and
communicate more than the sum of their words. I love listening to great
speakers and good theatre or a good book and never loose fasination of
this process!
malcolm idoine malcolmi@iconz.co.nz
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 03:58:19 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: J H-E Bylaws and Bailey
TO: Jerry Hejka-Ekins:
Thanks for your comments/interpretation of Brant Jackson's letter --
I wish more people were concerned with logical fallacies.
>JHE:
> I have stated many times before on theos-l that the main
> points of Bailey's teachings come from ES material extant between
> 1912 and 1918. Almost none of this has ever been published
> except some that is in CWL's books which some readers assume was
> stolen from Bailey. This may seem like trivia but I think it
> is very relevant to your question because ES members are in fact
> warned about Bailey. But for the general membership who are not
> in the ES the TS cannot dictate what they can or cannot study.
> On the other hand ES members are responsible to keep Lodges on
> the "right track." See how this makes for problems?
"... the main parts of Bailey's teachings come from ES material extant
between 1912 and 1918. Almost none of this has ever been published
except some that is in CWL's books ..."
That rather takes the thread into a conversational cul-de-sac does it not?
Can you explain *why* ES members are "warned" about Bailey?
About 18 months ago you had an interesting series of conversations with
Arvind Kumar regarding the Bailey teachings but I don't recall reading
anything "from the ES perspective." Most of the posts seemed to be focussed
on the potential for cross-referencing the Bailey material with "standard"
Theosophical texts rather than discussing the ideas themselves. note: my
only access to theos-l at that time was by Compu$erve and the list server
charges quickly grew out of hand. I signed off shortly thereafter and
subscribed again through a different channel only a short time ago. If you
or someone could direct me to the archives section where you earlier
posted re: Bailey and the ES I would appreciate it.
Jim
PS: I would post Bailey's seven "new ideas" for the benefit of those
unfamiliar with the writings of Alice A. Bailey and the Tibetan Djwhal
Khul but I'm afraid of being expelled from cyberspace. :
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 04:08:04 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: Beginner's list
My vote for "the book that should be placed in the hands of everyone
especially beginners in Theosophy" is BE HERE NOW by Ram Dass.
It's not even a "theosophical" work as such. But it is a wonderful
overview of the steps on the Path and the last section is a "recommended
readings" list that is comprehensive and geared towards those folks who are
looking for something without knowing what "it" is. btw kudos to the
Wheaton library
>From a review in one of the old Whole Earth catalogs 1980
"... you'll be face to face with the intensely illustrated Ram Dass
amalgamation of Hinduism Buddhism Christianity and more. That's followed
by *Cookbook for a Sacred Life* an excellent synopsis of methods and
practices available to those who wish to work on themselves to begin their
own personal yoga."
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 04:41:28 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
>
>snip.
>
>This also opens up ideas about communictaion and its limitations - great
>communicators seem to transmitt the thought as a whole to their audience and
>communicate more than the sum of their words. I love listening to great
>speakers and good theatre or a good book and never loose fasination of
>this process!
>
>malcolm idoine malcolmi@iconz.co.nz
>
I had a very interesting experience with language when I went back to
Denmark after 40 years away. My Danish was childlike and much has been
forgotten. My uncle does not speak English so here we were with so much I
wanted to know about my early years because now that I am all English much
of the Danish part is missing. Over a large family dinner my uncle and I
exchanged all the information we each wanted to know about each other
mostly without any real language being used. If we were not looking at each
other I could not understand what he was saying so I figured we must have
been passing thought at each other through the eyes. It was an amazing
experience that I have never had before or since. There is communication
other than words and I wonder if one mental body can communicate directly to
another on a vibration level. Thoughts are things so we may encounter the
thing itself in the thought world and then language translates it into the
brain so it can be used. It is an interesting subject.>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 09:02:06 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: J H-E Bylaws and Bailey
Jim Meier writes:
Thanks for your comments/interpretation of Brant Jackson's letter
--I wish more people were concerned with logical fallacies.
JHE
Thanks for reading them. Whenever there are bylaw changes the
basic structure of the Organization will always be affected. It
is vitally important for members to carefully scrutinize these
changes and not assume that the administration is necessarily
acting in the best interests of the membership. I believe that
the current bylaw changes are the most critical concerning the
abridgment of the rights of members and Branches that I have ever
seen--and I've been in this Organization since 1963.
JM Quotes JHE and comments:
>"... the main parts of Bailey's teachings come from ES material
>extant between 1912 and 1918. Almost none of this has ever been
>published except some that is in CWL's books ..."
>
>That rather takes the thread into a conversational cul-de-sac
>does it not?
JHE
Indeed it does take "the thread into a conversational cul-de-sac"
when I make a statement that cannot be backed with evidence. But
what evidence can I reasonably be expected to offer to back up
this statement? It would be useless to cite ES material
published between 1912 and 1918 because it is unlikely that you
or anyone on this net has access to any of this material to check
my statements against. Even most living ES members don't have
this material because all they get is what is current at the
time they join. But on the off chance that you do have this
material then I will give you the citations. If you are an ES
member then you can take a trip to Adyar where there is a
special archive of all ES material. All you have to do is apply
for permission from Radha to see it. But getting permission from
her is by no means guaranteed. If you get permission then I
understand that you have access for a maximum of two hours per
day. The only public *clue* that I can think of at the moment is
published in a very scarce work by F.T. Brooks entitled
foreword:
Moreover I must confess that some of the later findings of
those psychic diggings in the Earth's past history have been
to my mind far more interesting and on the while more
consistent than any fiction that I have yet set eyes on.
And I refer mainly to matters yet unpublished but which
will I believe soon be published under the title: "~Man
How Whence and Whither~" p viii.
~Man Whence How and Whither~ was published in 1913. Read
through as early an edition as you can find and I think you will
discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy already
outlined.
JM
>Can you explain *why* ES members are "warned" about Bailey?
JHE
I wish I could. Reasons are not given that I know of. My guess
is that the Arcane school is regarded as a rival organization.
JM
About 18 months ago you had an interesting series of
conversations with Arvind Kumar regarding the Bailey teachings
but I don't recall reading anything "from the ES perspective."
JHE
That is because Arvind knew nothing of the ES teachings for that
period so there was no basis for a discussion here. I do
remember mentioning the ES connection during those conversations
and receiving a long response from Eldon Tucker questioning
whether or not I should discuss "classified" ES material on a
public forum.
JM
Most of the posts seemed to be focussed on the potential for
cross-referencing the Bailey material with "standard"
Theosophical texts rather than discussing the ideas themselves.
JHE
Yes. That is as far as we were able to get. We agreed that
HPB's writings predated AAB's and that AAB considered her
writings to be extensions of HPB's. Therefore we agreed that it
would be reasonable to compare AAB's ideas to HPB's and check for
consistency. But before we got into the examination of the
ideas Arvind admitted that his real agenda was to win disciples
for AAB not to examine the writings. Shortly after that he
announced that he found another spiritual leader that required no
reading or study and was no longer interested in Theosophy or
the Bailey teachings and would only discuss the teachings of his
new spiritual teacher. That was the last I heard of him.
JM
If you or someone could direct me to the archives section where
you earlier posted re: Bailey and the ES I would appreciate it.
JHE
John Mead: jem@vnet.net has all of those details. You will need
to know the dates. My recollection was that the discussion ran
from the summer of 93 through the first months or so of 94. I
have them archived on a separate disk--more or less complete and
could upload them to you but the file is over 1.33 million
bytes.
JM
PS: I would post Bailey's seven "new ideas" for the benefit of
those unfamiliar with the writings of Alice A. Bailey and the
Tibetan Djwhal Khul but I'm afraid of being expelled from
cyberspace. :
JHE
I would be very interested in those ideas and would defend VERY
LOUDLY your right to post them.
Bee Brown:
If Theosophy was not so protective of their right to be the only
organization who can decide who speaks on behalf of our Elder
Brothers we all might live in peace together and let all of us
pursue our individual studies under their umbrella. If we can
develop our inner knowing I am sure guidance from within will
sooner or later put us back on the right road.
JHE
Remember Krishnamurti's "Truth is a pathless land" speech that he
gave in 1930? That was protest against the "spiritual authority"
held by the TS at the time. Van der Leeuw was alluding to this
in that pamphlet I posted a few months ago when he said that
when K made a statement that the Theosophical leaders did not
agree with then it came from K. But when he said something they
agreed with it came from the World Teacher. Van der Leeuw
observed that it seems that everyone except K knew when the World
Teacher was speaking through him and when He was not. Well the
paradigm shift that K tried to put in place in 1930 has finally
happened though sixty years late. Radha likes K's and takes his
"non authoritative" approach seriously. Now if she would only
stop requiring new ES members to pledge obedience to her....
BB
>From what I can see the majority of branch members do not study
the SD anyway because it is too hard for them.
JHE
Too bad because HPB says that the SD is an outline of the
esoteric philosophy. On the other hand she said in the ~Key~
"To the mentally lazy or obtuse Theosophy must remain a
riddle..." xi.
BB
Why not allow them to get their sustenance from sources they can
understand and if that turns out to be A B so what?
JHE
I have no problem with that. But those who claim to understand
the SD because they have read what AAB CWL AB ect. said about
the SD but find the SD itself too difficult to read--then I
think they have a problem.
Jerry HE
International Theosophist
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 13:35:54 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
Hi Bee
I absolutely agree with you. We should be able to read & study
whatever interests us as of the moment if for no other reason than
that we learn best from interesting materials. If it's Alice
Bailey well then it's Alice Bailey. I don't think that should make
a person an outcast if we're really practicing the tolerance that
goes with us all being one brother/sister-hood. I say that in spite of the
fact or maybe because of the fact that I find Besant & Leadbeater
more to my liking. To me they have more substance. But since I'm
asking others who don't like these 02 to stop making snide remarks
about them & to accept me as a believer in Besant/Leadbeater then
by the same token I should be willing to extend the same courtesy to
someone who finds Alice Bailey more to their liking.
I thoroughly dislike this sophistry which comes out of the ES that their
nucleus of the brother/sisterhood is wiser & holier than the wisdom & holiness
which comes out of other tradtions & beliefs. It's divisive when we should
be synthesising. I was brought up as a real provincial
snob. We thought of ourselves as the creme de la creme.
The Jews of Frankfurt were only second in stature to the
Jews of Berlin. Just don't ask me who of the 02 got put into the ovens
first. I don't think the Nazis were refined enough to differentiate
between the Frankfurt & the Berlin Jews. The experience taught me many
lessons one of which
was to get me over feeling holier than thou because I belonged to
the very high class Frankfurter Jews. Putting this lesson to use with
the issue at hand I will respect someone who believes in Alice Bailey!
I may argue with them about an idea if I think mine makes more sense. In
the final analysis I was taught by Theosophists that it's very difficult to
judge a person by their outside appearances & if their actions seem
odd there might be a perfectly valid inner reason. A few theosophical friends
treated me in this manner when I seemed wild & wolly & I was very
grateful for their understanding while I was struggling. I try to
apply the same courtesy to someone else don't always do it it's
hard but try. So much for Alice Bailey.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 14:37:06 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: very important "big"brother action fwd
> From: Michael Powell <73140.1517@compuserve.com>
> Subject: very important "big"brother action
>
> RE: very important "big"brother action
CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE NET CENSORSHIP LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS
On 191212 1995 Join With Hundreds of Thousands
Of Your Fellow Internet Users In
A NATIONAL INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST
PLEASE WIDELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WITH THIS BANNER INTACT
REDISTRIBUTE ONLY UNTIL 192012 1995
________________________________________________________________________
CONTENTS
Internet Day of Protest: 191212 1995
What You Must Do On 191212 1995
List of Participating Organizations
Where Can I Learn More?
________________________________________________________________________
INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST: TUESDAY DECEMBER 12 1995
Outrageous proposals to censor the Internet demand that the Internet
Community take swift and immediate action. We must stand up and let
Congress know that we will not tolerate their attempts to destroy this
medium! Please join hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in a
National Day of Protest on 191212 1995.
As you know on Dec 06 1995 the House Conference
Committee on Telecommunications Reform voted to impose far reaching and
unconstitutional "indecency" restrictions on the Internet and other
interactive media including large commercial online services such as
America Online Compuserve and Prodigy and smaller Internet Service
Providers such as Panix the Well Echo and Mindvox.
These restrictions threaten the very existence of the Internet and
interactive media as a viable medium for free expression education
commerce. If enacted the Internet as we know it will never be the
same.
Libraries will not be able to put any books online that might
offend a child somewhere. No "Catcher in the Rye" or "Ulysses" on the net.
Internet Service Providers could face criminal penalties for allowing
children to subscribe to their Internet Services forcing many small
companies to simply refuse to sell their services to anyone under 18. Worst
of all everything you say and publish on the net will have to be "dumbed
down" to that which is acceptable to a child.
As Internet users we simply must not allow this assault against the
Internet and our most basic freedoms to go unchallenged.
On 191212 the organizations below are urging you to
join us in a NATIONAL DAY OF PROTEST. The goal is to flood key members of
the House and Senate with phone calls faxes and email with the message
that the Internet community WILL NOT TOLERATE Congressional attempts to
destroy the Internet limit our freedoms and trample on our rights.
Below are the phone fax and email address of several key members of
Congress on this issue and instructions on what you can do to join the
National Day of Protest to save the Net.
______________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU MUST DO ON TUESDAY DECEMBER 12 1995
1. Throughout the day 191212 please contact as many
members of Congress on the list below as you can. If you are only
able to make one call contact House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Finally
if the Senator or Representative from your state is on the list
below be sure to contact him or her also.
2. Urge each Member of Congress to "stop the madness". Tell them that
they are about to pass legislation that will destroy the Internet as
an educational and commercial medium. If you are at a loss for
words try the following sample communique:
Sample phone call:
Both the House and Senate bills designed to protect children
from objectionable material on the Internet will actually
destroy the Internet as an medium for education commerce and
political discourse. There are other less restrictive ways to
address this issue.
I urge you to oppose both measures being proposed in the
conference committee. This is an important election issue to
me.
Sample letter fax or email:
The Senate conferees are considering ways to protect children
from inappropriate material on the Internet. A vote for either
the House or Senate proposals will result in the destruction of
the Internet as a viable medium for free expression education
commerce. Libraries will not be able to put their entire book
collections online. Everyday people like me will risk massive
fines and prison sentences for public discussions someone s
somewhere might consider "indecent".
There are other less restrictive ways to protect children from
objectionable material online. This is an important election
issue to me.
3. If you're in San Francisco or near enough to get there go to
the Rally Against Censorship from Ground Zero of the Digital Revolution:
WHEN: 191112 1995 120000 - 01:00 PM
WHERE: South Park between 2nd and 3rd Bryant and Brannon San Francisco.
SPEAKERS: To be announced
BRING: Attention-grabbing posters signs and banners that demonstrate
your committment to free speech and expression and your feelings
about Congress.
FOR UPDATED INFORMATION including rain info:
http://www.hotwired.com/staff/digaman/
### THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ###
4. Mail a note to protest@vtw.org to let us know you did your part.
Although you will not receive a reply due to the number of
anticipated responses we'll be counting up the number of people that
participated in the day of protest.
P ST Name and Address Phone Fax
= == ======================== ============== ==============
R AK Stevens Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044
R AZ McCain John 1-202-224-2235 1-602-952-8702
senator_mccain@mccain.senate.gov
D HI Inouye Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747
R KS Dole Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1245
D KY Ford Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046
wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov
R MS Lott Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262
R MT Burns Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594
conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov
D NE Exon J. J. 1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213
D SC Hollings Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293
senator@hollings.senate.gov
R SD Pressler Larry 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259
larry_pressler@pressler.senate.gov
R WA Gorton Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393
senator_gorton@gorton.senate.gov
D WV Rockefeller John D. 1-202-224-6472 n.a.
senator@rockefeller.senate.gov
Dist ST Name Address and Party Phone Fax
==== == ======================== ============== ==============
6 GA Gingrich Newt R 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656
2428 RHOB georgia6@hr.house.gov
14 MI Conyers Jr. John D 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072
2426 RHOB jconyers@hr.house.gov
1 CO Schroeder Patricia D 1-202-225-4431 1-202-225-5842
2307 RHOB
18 TX Jackson-Lee Sheila D 1-202-225-3816 1-202-225-3317
1520 LHOB
6 TN Gordon Bart D 1-202-225-4231 1-202-225-6887
2201 RHOB
4. Forward this alert to all of your wired friends.
________________________________________________________________________
WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE?
At this moment there are several organizations with WWW sites that now
have or will have information about the net censorship legislation and
the National Day Of Protest:
American Civil Liberties Union ftp://ftp.aclu.org/aclu/
Center for Democracy and Technology http://www.cdt.org/
Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org/
Electronic Privacy Information Center http://www.epic.org/
Wired Magazine http://www.hotwired.com/special/indecent/
Voters Telecommunications Watch http://www.vtw.org/
________________________________________________________________________
LIST OF PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS
In order to use the net more effectively several organizations have
joined forces on a single Congressional net campaign to stop the
Communications Decency Act.
American Civil Liberties Union * American Communication Association *
American Council for the Arts * Arts & Technology Society * Association
of Alternative Newsweeklies * biancaTroll productions * Boston
Coalition for Freedom of Expression * Californians Against Censorship
Together * Center For Democracy And Technology * Centre for Democratic
Communications * Center for Public Representation * Citizen's Voice -
New Zealand * Cloud 09 Internet *Computer Communicators Association *
Computel Network Services * Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility * Cross Connection * Cyber-Rights Campaign * CyberQueer
Lounge * Dorsai Embassy * Dutch Digital Citizens' Movement * ECHO
Communications Group Inc. * Electronic Frontier Canada * Electronic
Frontier Foundation * Electronic Frontier Foundation - Austin *
Electronic Frontiers Australia * Electronic Frontiers Houston *
Electronic Frontiers New Hampshire * Electronic Privacy Information
Center * Feminists For Free Expression * First Amendment Teach-In *
Florida Coalition Against Censorship * FranceCom Inc. Web Advertising
Services * Friendly Anti-Censorship Taskforce for Students * Hands
Off! The Net * Inland Book Company * Inner Circle Technologies Inc. *
Inst. for Global Communications * Internet On-Ramp Inc. * Internet
Users Consortium * Joint Artists' and Music Promotions Political Action
Committee * The Libertarian Party * Marijuana Policy Project *
Metropolitan Data Networks Ltd. * MindVox * MN Grassroots Party *
National Bicycle Greenway * National Campaign for Freedom of Expression
* National Coalition Against Censorship * National Gay and Lesbian Task
Force * National Public Telecomputing Network * National Writers Union
* Oregon Coast RISC * Panix Public Access Internet * People for the
American Way * Republican Liberty Caucus * Rock Out Censorship *
Society for Electronic Access * The Thing International BBS Network *
The WELL * Voters Telecommunications Watch
Note: All 'Electronic Frontier' organizations are independent entities
not EFF chapters or divisions.
________________________________________________________________________
End Alert
========================================================================
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 18:08:58 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
On 10 199512 Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:
>
> Moreover I must confess that some of the later findings of
> those psychic diggings in the Earth's past history have been
> to my mind far more interesting and on the while more
> consistent than any fiction that I have yet set eyes on.
> And I refer mainly to matters yet unpublished but which
> will I believe soon be published under the title: "~Man
> How Whence and Whither~" p viii.
>
> ~Man Whence How and Whither~ was published in 1913. Read
> through as early an edition as you can find and I think you will
> discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy already
> outlined.
It is my recollection that some of the material was serialized in
Adyar Theosophist before they were put in a book form and published.
May be this source should also be checked.
>
> JHE
> Remember Krishnamurti's "Truth is a pathless land" speech that he
> gave in 1930? That was protest against the "spiritual authority"
> held by the TS at the time. Van der Leeuw was alluding to this
Before he died Krishnaji held a private discussion session in
which he was questioned and discussed the issue of Spritual Hierachy and
the TS and at some time in the future I hope to see it published. I do
not know if Krishnaji had indicated his personal preference on publishing
the discussion. I believe that he would never have discussed this issue
unless he felt that it is something on which he has something to say. Let
us wait for its publication. I hope it is not something shocking for some
Theosophists.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 18:18:32 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: TSA Bylaws Referendum - Retransmit
I am retransmitting the msg I posted yesterday as it is likely that ome
of the participants in the the theos-l may not have received it. If you
have received it please ignore this msg and bear with me.
thanks
...doss
> From: MK Ramadoss INTERNET:ramadoss@eden.com
> TO: Multiple recipients of list INTERNET:THEOS-L@VNET.NET
RE: TSA Bylaws Referendum
Hi..
I have sent the following message by US Mail to the
members of Theosophical Society in America. Some of you may
have already seen it. Some may not have. For the benefit of
everybody I am posting it in the cyberspace where
distribution is instantaneous.
Seasons greetings to all.
MK Ramadoss
===========================================================
Dec 02 1995
To: Members of Theosophical Society in America
VOTE NO TO TSA BYLAWS CHANGES
Dear Fellow Members:
I am a member of the San Antonio Lodge a third generation
Theosophist and have been a formal member of the TS for
nearly four decades and informally for several years prior
to that. I am a self employed CPA in private practice
primarily in business and tax consulting areas to both
business and non profit organizations. I have taken the
trouble in writing this to you at my own cost as I foresee
that a very serious and dangerous situation may develop for
TSA if the proposed changes to bylaws pass. Hence I am
suggesting that the proposed bylaws changes be REJECTED IN
TOTAL for the reasons discussed below.
The areas of concern to me in the proposed changes to bylaws
are:
1. Membership rights of Lodge/Branch Members.
2. Lodge/Branch Property and money rights.
3. Disposition of assets in future if TSA ceases to exist.
When I saw the proposed bylaw changes in the American
Theosophist I had several serious concerns especially on
3 above and I had sent several letters to our National
President communicating my concerns and requesting response
and information. For most of the issues either there was no
response or the few responses I received were very
unsatisfactory. I am discussing below some of the major
items of concern.
The proposed bylaw changes if passed in my humble opinion
have a great potential for creating disharmony among the
membership and may even cause dissension leading to
significant loss due to several lodges and members leaving
the TSA. The price paid in terms of unity and cooperation
from members may also be very high.
As for the membership in TSA presently every
Lodge/Branch/Study Center has the authority to rescind the
lodge/branch membership of its members. With the change
proposed the National Board can rescind the membership of
the local members which is simply taking away the authority
of the lodges. I do not see that there is any need for the
lodge/branch to cede this authority to the National Board.
The changes proposed relative to the assets of the
lodges/branches is even more serious and far reaching. At
the outset it may not appear so. As for real estate even
though the title to the lodge property may be in the name of
the lodge/branch if there is a difference of opinion
between the local lodge and the National Board relative to
any transaction relating to the property and the National
Board declines to consent no prospective buyer/lender etc.
will go ahead with the transaction due to the threat of
National Board suing to nullify the transaction especially
when the buyer/lender finds out about the deep pockets of
TSA to finance litigation. This applies to mortgage or any
other encumbrance. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. PLEASE
SHOW THE NEW BYLAWS AND CONSULT WITH YOUR FRIENDS IN THE
LEGAL AND REAL ESTATE AND BANKING COMMUNITY AND SEE WHAT
THEY SAY.
With the above almost veto control over the cash and real
estate matters subtle but sure and strong extreme pressures
could be brought on lodges branches and study centers on
the type of activities and programs carried on by them.
While I have high confidence it will not happen with the
present leadership it is very likely to happen with a
determined charismatic and strong national leader and a
board who will go along with him/her with a fundamentalist
view of Theosophy. This is a potential risk I do not think
we should take.
THE PROPOSED CHANGES ARE IRREVERSIBLE AND HENCE I URGE YOUR
UTMOST ATTENTION AND THOUGHT SINCE YOUR DECISION IS GOING TO
AFFECT THE FUTURE OF THEOSOPHY AND TSA FOR GENERATIONS TO
COME.
As for the disposition of assets in the future if TSA ceases
to exist it is to be transferred to the Theosophical
Investments Trust. While I do not see this happening in the
near future it is a possibility in 20-30 years from now. If
this were to happen then you will be faced with a Trust
with multi-million dollar assets all over the country whose
trustees are answerable to no one and can do anything they
want so long as it is legal. Also in this eventuality no one
may be able to know what is going on inside the trust as the
trustees have no obligation to disclose any information to
any one including members of TSA.
As far as I know changes to the bylaws were developed with
very little input from membership and officers of Lodges and
study centers which indeed are the entities affected by
these. Nor was there any public discussion or deliberation
of the problems and solutions thereof. While all of us agree
about the objectives far reaching changes such as those
proposed should be made after careful deliberation with
extensive field input as it affects the members and the
lodges in the field.
So I urge you to say NO to all changes. Then a national
commission can be appointed to come up with changes which
will meet the objectives to which we all agree. This
commission should get all the input and ideas it can from
members and officers of lodges branches and study centers
and discuss all of them in an open forum. The commission can
also have open hearings to get inputs. Then the commission
can come up with a workable set of changes to the bylaws
which we all can approve.
If you want to contact me on any of the items discussed
above I can be reached at 1-800-615-1710 during days and
1-800-693-3365 any other time including evenings and
weekends.
With regards
Yours fraternally
M. K. Ramadoss CPA
==========================end of message=================
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 19:26:34 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
>TO: Jerry Hejka-Ekins:
> Thanks for your comments/interpretation of Brant Jackson's letter --
> I wish more people were concerned with logical fallacies.
>
>>JHE:
>> I have stated many times before on theos-l that the main
>> points of Bailey's teachings come from ES material extant between
>> 1912 and 1918. Almost none of this has ever been published
>> except some that is in CWL's books which some readers assume was
>> stolen from Bailey. This may seem like trivia but I think it
>> is very relevant to your question because ES members are in fact
>> warned about Bailey. But for the general membership who are not
>> in the ES the TS cannot dictate what they can or cannot study.
>> On the other hand ES members are responsible to keep Lodges on
>> the "right track." See how this makes for problems?
>
>"... the main parts of Bailey's teachings come from ES material extant
>between 1912 and 1918. Almost none of this has ever been published
>except some that is in CWL's books ..."
>
>That rather takes the thread into a conversational cul-de-sac does it not?
>Can you explain *why* ES members are "warned" about Bailey?
>
>About 18 months ago you had an interesting series of conversations with
>Arvind Kumar regarding the Bailey teachings but I don't recall reading
>anything "from the ES perspective." Most of the posts seemed to be focussed
>on the potential for cross-referencing the Bailey material with "standard"
>Theosophical texts rather than discussing the ideas themselves. note: my
>only access to theos-l at that time was by Compu$erve and the list server
>charges quickly grew out of hand. I signed off shortly thereafter and
>subscribed again through a different channel only a short time ago. If you
>or someone could direct me to the archives section where you earlier
>posted re: Bailey and the ES I would appreciate it.
>
>Jim
>
>PS: I would post Bailey's seven "new ideas" for the benefit of those
>unfamiliar with the writings of Alice A. Bailey and the Tibetan Djwhal
>Khul but I'm afraid of being expelled from cyberspace. :
>
I am surprised by all this furore over Alice Bailey and always have been.
Why do Theosophists need protecting from her? Are we not urged to develop
our discrimination so that we can tell what is real and what isn't? I have
read some of her stuff and really enjoyed it and taken out of it what I felt
was relevant to myself. I also study SD and do the same there. As you all
know I am a de Purucker fan just now and when I have read him who will be
next? If I wander up a mental side road by reading queer things I have
every confidence I will return to the main path again wiser than before I
did a little detour. Detours can add to our knowledge of the landscape even
if we spend a whole lifetime in the bypass. When we have digested our detour
in devachan then we come back and continue on our path once more. If
Theosophy was not so protective of their right to be the only organization
who can decide who speaks on behalf of our Elder Brothers we all might live
in peace together and let all of us pursue our individual studies under
their umbrella. If we can develop our inner knowing I am sure guidance from
within will sooner or later put us back on the right road. Who is to say
that people who study A B will be less spiritual at the end of it than
someone who studies Besant and Leadbeater? From what I can see the majority
of branch members do not study the SD anyway because it is too hard for
them. Why not allow them to get their sustenance from sources they can
understand and if that turns out to be A B so what? Next incarnation they
may be ready to investigate the SD. Since trying to come to grips with our
cosmogony I have readjusted my time scales to a much wider framework and see
much of the disagreements and disputes being caused by a small timeframe of
this 'life time' only. From a wider perspective it doesn't matter because we
all get where we are going when we are ready to get there. We are still
coping with the 5th race ideas in the 4th round of globe D. There are eons
ahead to travel our paths on so why get hung up on such silly issues in
this little lifetime? I like to read what is around that pertains to my path
and if I don't agree with some of it I just leave it and get on with what I
can understand and that appeals to my present level of understanding. Maybe
next time around I might understand Quantum Physics properly because I am
intrigued by it but not having that sort of mind this time it is hard to do
more than skim the surface. I believe that what we set in motion this
lifetime will come to fruition in a later one so I am content to develop the
intense interest required and to build on that next time. >
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 19:30:24 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: by-law vote
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.427.mail06.mail.aol.com.818659822
Content-ID: <0_427_818659823@mail06.mail.aol.com.13403>
Content-type: text/plain
The following is the complete text of the letter to the American Theosophist
from Gerda Thompson on the matter of the by-law changes being voted on. I
hope this time it gets on because if it does not she may assualt me with a
broccoli stalk
Chuck Cosimano
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.427.mail06.mail.aol.com.818659822
Content-ID: <0_427_818659823@mail06.mail.aol.com.13404>
Content-type: text/plain;
name="GERDAT.TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0D
Sep 1995 AT Letter to the Editor
=0D
Dear Fellow TSA Members:
=0D
I would like to start this by reminding you that the TSA is a democratic =
non-profit membership organization. The power and responsibility in the c=
onducting of our affairs rests in each and everyone of us to know what is=
going on at our Administrative Headquarters - Olcott. And to hold our e=
lected Board of Directors accountable for their omissions as well as acti=
ons.
=0D
Did you know that this latest round of By Law revisions began two years a=
go? That just a year ago a very small number of members were informed th=
at major changes to the By Laws were being contemplated? Some at the inst=
igation of the International Society? Why wasn't the general membership i=
nformed of these vital matters and denied the opportunity to contribute=
their ideas and suggestions? We have an "official members' magazine" - T=
he American Theosophist. Why wasn't this vehicle used to informed the mem=
bership? If not a special letter sent to every member?
=0D
I know the general reasoning the Board will state why these comprehensive=
by-law revisions were kept virtually secret. That too many people contri=
buting their suggestions would make things unwieldy for the three-person =
By Law Committee. That the goal of these revisions changed over time from=
being a simple clean-up-job to the major undertaking it evolved into. Th=
at the changes instigated at the International level weren't complete unt=
il last Dec's General Council meeting in Adyar. These reasons are
NEITHER VALID NOR JUSTIFIED in my opinion from keeping the general memb=
ership informed of the status of the By Law Committee's work!
=0D
Now that the general membership is being informed another question raises=
its head. Why the rush in voting? There will only be two AT issues out b=
efore the voting is completed. Now that we have or will have a copy of=
the proposed by-laws don't they warrant a serious consideration? Remembe=
r this is the product of two years work by people who have put in much ti=
me and effort with personal sacrifices.
=0D
Again I know the basic line of reasoning the Board will take. They will =
say that as some of the changes have to do with electing the Board and as=
next year is our triennial elections that these changes must be put in =
place for that. This is nonsense! We can have our election operating unde=
r the present system. This present system works very well and I don't see=
how the welfare of the TSA would be unduly compromised by using the "ol=
d rules" another time.
=0D
In fairness to the By Law Committee and to the TSA membership I would pro=
pose that the vote on the revised By Laws be postponed until next Fall. B=
esides the changes effecting the election of the Board there are two subs=
tantive issues [items 09 and 17] that will have an enormous impact on the =
individual member and the organizational structure. These are two very se=
rious issues and can't be handled casually. A postponement would give all=
the members ample time to talk among themselves at Study Center Branch =
and Federation meetings. Also that the Annual Meeting for 1996 be devoted=
to discussing the By Laws and TSA policies in general as we prepare to e=
nter the 21st Century.
=0D
If a postponement of the referendum is not forthcoming then especially b=
ecause of the critical nature of [9] and [17] which I will outline below=
I urge you to VOTE NO ON ALL THE ITEMS. The rational and justification=
for [9] and [17] is vague and tenuous in some parts and completely lack=
ing in others.
=0D
[9] By Law 04 Section 09 Termination of Membership
Adyar has asked for this inclusion in our By Laws referring to Internatio=
nal Rule 9. To my knowledge this is the first time that an expulsion clau=
se would be included in our By Laws. Approximately ten years ago a Board =
member prior to the Annual Meeting proposed something similar which was s=
o strenuously rejected by the members and at the Annual Meeting that it n=
ever came up for a vote. I have asked for background and reasoning for th=
is item but have received none. I also asked what criterion would be use=
d and who is to formulate it? Again all I got was silence! I proposed th=
at a parameter of conduct be included in the By Law which was also reject=
ed. If no clear guidelines are established the reasons for "termination" =
could readily change over time because of the rotation on and off the Boa=
rd. This means that the reasons for excommunication could easily degenera=
te into personality and/or political differences. The need for a two-thir=
ds Board vote doesn't necessarily protect a member from this contingency.=
I strongly urge you to VOTE NO ON ITEM [9]!
=0D
[17] By Law 09 Section 03 Lodge Organization
The second paragraph of this section begins "Each lodge shall be a fully=
autonomous body...". If this is truly the case then why is [17] being p=
roposed? Financial autonomy is just as important as philosophical autonom=
y. I know that there have been a few difficulties in the past but when I=
asked for explanations all I got were these general statements: 01 prot=
ection for legal official? members when factions occur; and 02 to stop=
a local group from unilaterally wanting to withdraw from the TSA and do =
something else or affiliate with another organization and use the lodge f=
unds. These two types of problems can be handled without the TSA taking o=
ver financial control of all the Branches. Even without this clause there=
is nothing stopping a Branch from asking for nor the TSA from offering t=
o help with any financial transactions. It all hinges on the phrase "suc=
h consent not to be unreasonably withheld". Point d states that the TSA=
has legal recourse for enforcing this. But what remedy does a Branch hav=
e if they feel that TSA consent has been unreasonably withheld? Can a Bra=
nch especially those which are incorporated have legal recourse also? T=
he way this whole item has been written the TSA if they so choose can h=
ave a strangle-hold over a Branches' finances. And through the finances c=
an influence both collectively and individually the Branches philosophica=
l autonomy. I strongly urge you to also VOTE NO ON ITEM [17]!
=0D
The general direction of the Theosophical Society in American our offici=
al policies are the responsibility of the members to formulate and the B=
oard of Directors to execute. Think about the impact this version of the =
By Laws will have on the future growth and prosperity of the TSA. Will it=
be beneficial or detrimental? If a postponement of the By Law referendum=
is not forthcoming I again urge you to VOTE NO on all nineteen items bu=
t most especially [9] and [17]!
=0D
Fraternally yours
Gerda J. Thompson
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.427.mail06.mail.aol.com.818659822--
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 22:43:30 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: To Eldon
Ann:
>The arrogance
>I refer to is the inability of any organization to admit that their
>lack of membership may lie with the organization's attitudes and
>techniques. I am suggesting that there may be highly advanced people
>out there who perhaps through no fault of their own haven't got a
>clue as to how to proceed after they get their membership card.
>Failing to find a niche in the organization they drop out and join
>something else.
What do do after joining? This is the important question that comes
up again and again. We can provide people with books and hold study
classes but what do we really give them *to do*? They could become
lodge presidents and hold classes for others but what if they are
ready for more than reading books?
When someone wants something more that person can come up with a
self-devised approach to the Path. This is difficult though and
not a likely thing. It's more likely that anyone doing so is simply
"remembering" an approach taught them in a previous lifetime. More
likely people will leave theosophical groups to find a teacher and
practice.
The techniques of theosophical groups are based upon teaching the
basic philosophical ideas. The teachings stop short of actual
spiritual practice and training and are theoretical. The highest
person in a theosophical group may be a pundit but not a guru.
If this is the goal of theosophical groups then they are successful.
If we were to expect more of them then we could say that they
fall short.
The arrogance would come in I think when people active in
theosophical groups would claim that *this is the highest there is*.
That is when they claim that there are no higher practices training
or approaches to the Path other than the study of books in theosophical
lodges.
>If we state that they all must be a bunch of no-good no-account
>lower consciousness slobs because they don't join up or stay is
>throwing all the responsibility on them.
Perhaps some people feel insecure in their theosophical studies
and need the external validation of seeing others universally
acquire membership cards and profess their belief? If one is
uncertain about the philosophy the sight of others rejecting it
would be a blow. One would be inclined to put those people down
rather than question one's own beliefs.
People don't of course reject Theosophy simply by quitting a
theosophical group. Not anymore than someone rejects the idea of
gravity when quitting a local community college and no longer taking
introductory courses in physics there.
The important question which you and many of us raise is:
what do we give people to do when they've joined our theosophical
groups? And how can we improve over what we currently offer?
Let's move beyond potatoe-chip spirituality and see if we can
cook up a full meal for people...
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 23:00:18 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Alan:
> [writing to Ann]:
>Of course God does not and cannot have a sexual identity yet
>the language which supposes this persists and those like
>myself who protest are either ignored or insulted though not
>insulted on theos-l.
According to our theosophical textbooks the separation into
sexes happened in an earlier race and will one day in the
distant future end. It is a temporary experience. We as
human Monads are not male or female but simply human.
The being whose existence brings about our world a being which
might be called "God" is sexless. Sexual differences are like
other patterns of personality; they are psycho-physical. They
are among those specific attributes taken on in a particular
lifetime.
We will never directly know the "God" whose life energies create
our world. That being bears a relationship to us akin to the
relationship that we bear to our lifeatoms or Skandhas. What
we relate to and know are gods and goddesses. These are the
Dhyani-Chohans the highest beings in our system. They establish
the laws of nature and spiritual superstructure of the world.
While male and female are polarizations of our physical body
and temporary constructs masculine and feminine are universal
qualities that things can take on. We can have a male or
female deity. They are male or female not because of physical
form but because of representing a masculine or feminine quality.
Shiva for instance would be male and Shakti female.
What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 10 Dec 1996 23:40:28 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
Jerry H-E:
>I do remember mentioning the ES connection during those conversations
>and receiving a long response from Eldon Tucker questioning
>whether or not I should discuss "classified" ES material on a
>public forum.
I don't usually repost things but it's been about two years and
the subject is important. Since you brought up the subject and
my original posting isn't too long I'm reposting it for the new
people on the list:
-- Eldon
>From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
>Subject: ethics and confidential materials
A comment of Jerry H-E's got me thinking about the ethics of having
other people's confidential materials. Here are my thoughts.
----
An interesting ethical question for us to consider confidential
materials. Is it ever right to possess and study materials
belonging to other people materials that were considered confidential
and not entrusted to oneself?
Does the right to possess and to utilize the materials depend solely
upon how they were acquired or are their certain ethical principles
involved that are independent of anything one may have agreed to? Are
there certain principles that are right to follow regardless of whether
we can be sanctioned or found at fault by others?
Say that we've found a photocopy of someone's diary in a trash bin or
perhaps in a folder at a used bookstore. Is it okay to freely use it
without the writer's permission? What is a fair use of the materials in
these circumstances?
One of us may have materials of the Esoteric School of Theosophy an
organization associated with the Adyar Theosophical Society. We all may
come across materials in bookstores or from friends. How do we handle
them?
When we have materials where their owner intends to keep them secret
and it is clearly known that those entrusted with the materials are
sworn to secrecy does it matter if we came into possession of them
through an round-about way?
For us to obtain something like the Adyar E.S. materials someone had
to intentionally or inadvertently break their trust with the
organization to allow the materials to come into our hands. Are we
ethically bound to keep them secret or can we say that because we've
made no specific pledge to do so that we are free to reveal them at
our own discretion?
I would say that there is a karmic responsibility to the person whom
betrayed the secrecy and that we may add to their bad karma and make
some for ourselves depending upon how we handle the situation.
It is not a cut-and-dry situation where a blanket rule can be made.
But when we read materials meant to be secret and talk about them we
are in a delicate situation one where we could possible do harm.
I'm not trying to make a case that the Adyar E.S. secrets are
especially esoteric--except to those who believe in the
Besant/Leadbeater variant of Theosophy--but there is a direct analogy
to the real Mysteries. Would we reveal their secrets if we were to come
across them?
There are different degrees of betrayal of a secret. We could join an
organization but be unfaithful to our pledges and reveal information
entrusted to us. We could secretly copy materials that were not meant
for us to see or have. Or we could obtain materials that were lost by
their owner or inadvertenly released materials never intended to be
let go of and only coming to us due to someone's mistake.
It is not always though in the best interest of others that secrets
be kept beyond a certain point. Consider the Mahatma Letters. They
certainly needed to be secret at the time that they were being written.
But by the 1920's things had changed and they were needed to help
bring to public attention again the original Theosophy that HPB taught.
In our time we have seen similar decisions being made regarding the
Point Loma esoteric materials. The higher E.S. materials were published
as "The Dialogues of G. de Purucker." Then the first degree E.S.
materials were published first by Theosophical University Press
revised and edited into a book called "The Fountain-Source of
Occultism." They were later printed in nearly the original form of the
twelve books by Point Loma Publications.
A case could be made that times change and that materials that were
meant to be esoteric in one time could be published at a later date.
But we are always faced with the question: When does our need to
present some materials exceed the right of others to keep it hidden?
And is the exposing of the materials a form of our intervention in or
interference with the karma of another the karma of the person whose
decision or mistake allowed the materials to get into our hands?
Maybe the distinction could be made between the theosophical doctrines
as presented within the esoteric theosophical groups and the actual
Mystery doctrines which come to us through special training or through
some form of inner contact or guidance. Perhaps the materials taught in
the outer organizations were meant to eventually become public and
that is why they were allowed to be written down and given wide
distribution. The other secrets of the Mysteries perhaps only come
to those whose lips are already sealed against their betrayal.
We hear that we are to Know to Dare to Will and to Keep Silent! I
think that we are capable of such. I think that we know when we have
something that should go unmentioned. And that we will simply forget
or lose touch with or never really know those great Truths that we
would betray. It is not that we are talking about things that are
beyond words just beyond *our* words beyond our right to speak of
them. And we will know too when our lips are unsealed and we should
share what we have learned.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 01:02:38 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Priests
Osmar:
Glad to see you here from Brazil. Please contribute your responses when
you can on matters discussed here. Also keep us informed of the going ons
in Brazil.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 02:26:56 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
>
>
>BB
>>From what I can see the majority of branch members do not study
>the SD anyway because it is too hard for them.
>
>JHE
>Too bad because HPB says that the SD is an outline of the
>esoteric philosophy. On the other hand she said in the ~Key~
>"To the mentally lazy or obtuse Theosophy must remain a
>riddle..." xi.
>
>BB
>Why not allow them to get their sustenance from sources they can
>understand and if that turns out to be A B so what?
>
>JHE
>I have no problem with that. But those who claim to understand
>the SD because they have read what AAB CWL AB ect. said about
>the SD but find the SD itself too difficult to read--then I
>think they have a problem.
>
>I agree with that but the average person that I was talking about isn't
likely to get into involved discussions on the SD anyway. They are mostly
concerned with their own spiritual growth and trying to get enough
information to understand what is being talked about in general in their
lodge. If they are 'mentally lazy' then they won't be interested in debating
the finer points of theosophy. As Liesel said people learn quickest if they
are enthusiastic about what they are reading and if that is A B then I would
rather they did that than say 'no no' and give them SD. Sadly many want
titilation with their knowledge so while they are going through that stage
they will not take on something that takes serious thought. I raved on about
de Purucker and how much easier he was to understand to one of our members
who I knew was upset at not understanding SD and she took his book out. Two
weeks later it was returned and nothing has been said since. As it was one
of his larger books it could not have been read in two weeks.
If people want to discuss and they say their source is other than SD then of
course it is debatable how much store to put on their ideas but even reading
SD does not preclude misunderstanding what HPB meant by what she wrote. So
it seems to boil down to each persons interpretation of what they have read
what ever that may be. On this list debate goes on between persons who are
familiar with the same books yet see things differently. That is good for
the rest of us as we then have to think about it and decide how we each
understand it. This is discrimination at work.
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 03:36:46 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Practical Lessons/guidance & Theosophy
In theos-l in several msgs in the past a mention was made about
the lessons and guidance etc. There is a great interest in the eastern
philosophy and practices at the current time.
One of the issues that has been of concern to me is about the
practical "lessons" that one could try. I have seen some writers in
Theosophical Literature mentioning about the dangers of some of the
practices in the hands of a rookie who is self guided or guided by person
who may not be fully competent. I have indirectly known of two instances
where in two individuals came close to losing their mind for rest of this
life. So I am very hesitant.
In this context I recently saw TSA at Olcott sponsoring a program
on Hatha Yoga which specifically mentions guided "pranyama". May be it is
a good beginning that TSA embarks upon such programs. May be it is
potentially dangerous to the financial health of TSA. Say a participant
attends this program for which there is a fee and for some reason or other
gets into some psychiatric difficulties what is there to prevent TSA
getting sued as the course being the cause of the problem when the lawyers
find out about the deep pockets of TSA?
I thought I share the above with you all.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 03:54:35 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
> Hi Bee
>
> I absolutely agree with you. We should be able to read & study
> whatever interests us as of the moment if for no other reason than
> that we learn best from interesting materials. If it's Alice
> Bailey well then it's Alice Bailey. I don't think that should make
> a person an outcast if we're really practicing the tolerance that
> goes with us all being one brother/sister-hood. I say that in spite of the
> fact or maybe because of the fact that I find Besant & Leadbeater
> more to my liking. To me they have more substance. But since I'm
> asking others who don't like these 02 to stop making snide remarks
> about them & to accept me as a believer in Besant/Leadbeater then
> by the same token I should be willing to extend the same courtesy to
> someone who finds Alice Bailey more to their liking.
> Liesel
> Member Theosophy International
> Member Human Race
If we believe what we say we believe in then our approach
must be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE.
Personally I do not care for Alice Bailey's writings not
because I object to what she says but because I found her too
verbose and over the top with blue type ..... just couldn't read
it! However if someone else gets on fine with her what is
that to me? I have my way; let them have theirs.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 05:04:30 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
RI:
>>Arrogance or humility represent an attitude we bring to things.
>>[. . .] The idea that the Mahatmas have a body of knowledge
>>and that it is more than we know is not arrogant.
>But would it be arrogant to talk with apodictic certainty about
>living Mahatmas and the authenticity of what one has learned by
>means of Them if Their continuing existence were merely someone's
>pleasant private belief to begin with?
Dictionary time for apodictic:
AHD> necessary or demonstratably true incontrovertible
The theosophical doctrines include certain key ideas like
reincarnation and karma other planes of existance the unity
of life and the path of spiritual evolution. This includes the
idea of the Masters. There are various ideas about them that are
taught us. We can infer more from the literature and from our
own thinking.
While it's fine to open up to consideration any particular idea
found in Theosophy and consider its pros and cons I don't think
that the basic ideas are anyone's pleasant private beliefs. The
ideas are part of a system of thought and they are interdependent.
You could also say the same thing about any of the basic ideas.
Perhaps Parabrahm is someone's private belief? Or other planes
of existence? Or the unity of life?
We come back to the basic question of how we know things. Is it
possible for someone to accept Masters as taught by Theosophy
as true without personally knowing them? I'd say yes. And the same
for the other basic doctines.
>I suppose however that capitalizing *Belief* in this case
>would justify the forging of such an unbreakable chain of
>Authority for oneself. . . .
The chain or lineage passes from Dhyani-Chohans through the
Buddhas Bodhisattvas Mahatmas to lesser gurus coming down
ourselves at some point.
We can of course believe that there are such higher beings or
not. That belief can be qualified with uncertainity where we
say "I think this may be true but I'm not sure." Or the belief
may be based upon something we read and dependent upon citations
for its support: "I read on page XYZ of 'The Top Secret Doctrine'."
But we're entitled to study and believe in as much of Theosophy as
we find appealing and to speak our beliefs with conviction.
>>I don't think that the Mahatmas are holding back any of their
>>knowledge ...
>Because you said "*are* holding back" there seems to be a
>suggestion of intimacy and insight into Their current
>motivations etc. Could it be that this was simply a hasty
>verb-tense oversight? I.e. did you really mean the passage to
>read something more along these lines: "I don't believe that
>the Mahatmas held back any of their knowledge from the public
?due to pride or contempt. Sources suggest that they gave out
>as much as they safely could and that many of those fragments
>are what we have available in theosophical groups"?
I don't think that it's unreasonable to speak in the present tense
of what the Masters may be doing. To do so does not mean that
I have to be intimate with them to know them personally. This
would be especially true in the case of things which they have
always done things not likely to change in a few generations.
In "The Mahatma Letters" they talk about not giving out the secrets
of occult science to the public and about how would-be students
need to come to them or settle for crumbs. Do you know of anything
that would have caused this ages-old approach to change in the
past century?
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 05:12:15 GMT
From: Aprioripa@aol.com
Subject: Updated Holistic www pages
Hi
Updated www pages
Holistic - http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/maininfo.html
Esoteric - http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/esopsych.html
Auras - http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/auras.html
Meditation - http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/service.html
Peace & Light
Patrick
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 05:14:29 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Beginner's list
JM:
>My vote for "the book that should be placed in the hands of everyone
>especially beginners in Theosophy" is BE HERE NOW by Ram Dass.
I applaud your choice Jim. It was placed in my hands when I was in college by
a very dear friend of mine who also introduced me to Bucky Fuller and Kahlil
Gibran.
- ann
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 05:17:47 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
Jerry S:
>>You make a good point here that we should be responsive to someone's
>>*intent* and not what they literally say. If someone is wanting
>>sympathy and a shoulder to cry on the appropriate reply would be
>>different than if they were seeking to understand *why* something
>>happened.
>This is exactly the point that I tried to make awhile back
>about the necessity for at least some psychism. The only way to
>know how to really help a person is to be able to look into his/her
>heart and sense what is wrong and what the real need is.
To truly know a person and look into their heart requires empathy
a direct-connectedness that resides in Buddhi. We need to put ourselves
in that person's place by realizing how we are connected with that
person. Using psychism looking at their physical appearance listening
to what they say we can gather *external clues* to what is going on.
But it's in our direct experience of oneness with the other person
in which we really know what is needed.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 06:30:56 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Titillation
BB:
>As Liesel said people learn quickest if they
>are enthusiastic about what they are reading and if that is A B then I would
>rather they did that than say 'no no' and give them SD. Sadly many want
>titilation with their knowledge so while they are going through that stage
>they will not take on something that takes serious thought.
I was intrigued by the meaning of the word titillation in regard to esoteric
material and spiritual growth so I consulted my robot dictionary and found this
interesting quote. It also suggests that one would have to keep "titillating"
the readers or they will go elsewhere. Although I read and like CWL that
reminds me of him and his more fantastic writings.
Titillation
To excite another especially in a superficial pleasurable manner: "Once you
decide to titillate instead of illuminate . . . you create a climate of
expectation that requires a higher and higher level of intensity" Bill Moyers.
The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language Third Edition
copyright C 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from
InfoSoft International Inc. All rights reserved.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 06:43:47 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
In a recent post one writes:
< One gets the impression that perfection lies on the side of any
theosophic organization and there are so many swine out there that it is
useless to throw them a handful of pearls . . . . . . Could it be that there
could be some faults within the organizations that convey theosophy?>
ABSOLUTELY. This is the point and the problem we desparately need to
address. From observing the posts here it is becoming painfully clear that
Theosophical Organizations are problematic and really need to be re-thought.
Let me also state that I am not never have been and probably never will be
a member of the or any T.S.
But let's approach the issue of the organization from a different angle.
Like neighborhoods cities states and nations these organizations are
composed of individuals. Any reform must begin with individuals. We cannot
lament the failings of an organization if we do nothing ourselves to make the
situation better. We must conduct ourselves according to the highest and
best we know. Throw off the fetters of the organization and act individually
to remedy the problems we see. Walk away and do your own good trying to
figure out how to make Theosophy more nutritious. The only real purpose of
the organization is to provide a forum for students to learn from each other
by the exchange of ideas and experiences to help one another. To the extent
that this is not occuring get rid of it. My hearty congratulations to those
expelled members and sections for a job well done.
Theosophy exists independent of the T.S. or any other body and most fail to
realize this. It is the mutual sympathy of thought existing among
Theosophists which binds them together. When studying in ernest help is
never far away. And if we each acted according to the spirit and philosophy
of the teachings more would be drawn to and stay with Theosophy being the
most undiluted statement of the Ancient Wisdom >>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 06:45:11 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Several have requested recommendations for a simpler statement of the
philosophy sources which are not so daunting. Here are my recommendations:
UNIVERSAL THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A wonderful "primer" for the any
student and the book that was handed to me first 15 years ago.
LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME by Wm Q. Judge. A collection of letters by
Judge to students comprising a warm wise and practical approach to
Theosophy.
THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Wm Q. Judge. A summary of the SD in very readable
language and an amazingly small book. Gets to the heart of the matter.
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A great
companion to the Ocean
All are available from the Theosophy Company 245 W. 33rd St. Los Angeles
CA 90007 213 748-7244
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 06:49:25 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
BB:
>There is no hurry and some people learn through devotion rather than through
the
>intellect. I don't really expect to see devotional people in Theosophy as it
>appeals to the intellect and promotes the wisdom as knowledge to the
>intellect and then for intellectual people the devotion comes later. We all
>start a various levels and types of spiritual pursuits.
This would go back to the fact that people have different rays in their natal
charts. The personality with a majority of 6th ray planets would be more
devotional. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the LCC and other devotional
services were created and still attended. Those with a majority of 5th ray
would tend to be intellectual and perhaps feeling superior suggest that other
do not need rituals or devotion. Everyone has his own path and his own
collection of rays to deal with.
God bless us - every one.
- ann
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 07:02:41 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Father/Mother God
In response to the question about my use of male language
referring to the deity: I don't remember doing so other than
in a quote. But of course I deplore the envisioning of
divinity in male terms and don't even find monotheism
appealing. What I was getting at in the post "God loves you"
is that there is truth in this phrase that can be accepted
even within the framework of Theosophical pantheism-- which is
really where the Cayce readings come down on the issue. God is
used as synonymous with "the Creative Forces."
Of course Cayce's lifelong study of the Bible influenced the
language of the readings and often God is called a Father
therein. But here's an exception:
Father-Mother-God! In Thy mercy in Thy love be Thou the
guide just now as I seek in humility and in earnestness to
present that which may give my fellow man [uh-oh] a better and
more perfect insight into the love which was manifested by
Jesus my Lord and my God. Help Thou O God my every effort.
849-76
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 09:17:14 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: AT Early Winter Issue
Hi
I just received it. Hope all of you have received it. FYI.
.doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 10:34:27 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: Members-at-large and interent
> ... I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
> or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
> learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
> a member at large and except for computer networking have
> not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
> others.
>
> Jerry S.
>
YES! Finally a way to link members who don't have access to a local
group. I too live to far from the nearest group in Atlanta to
attend programs as often as I would like. I love being able to
"discuss" theosophy or even just vicariously participate in
discussions while lurking as frequently as I choose -- which is
nearly every day!
Lewis
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 10:44:32 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: Dark night of the soul
Jerry S. wrote:
>... The Dark-Night-of-the-Soul
> is an anguishing experience that most of us go through at
> some point in which the human mind eventually
> comes to terms with the fact that its limited nature will never
> allow it to fully understand or comprehend the infinite spirit.
I thought of it more as the anguish one feels now I see I am
speaking at the emotional level while you are addressing our mental
state over the separation which occurs as we strike out away from
the group we have been traveling with for many lifetimes.
Lewis
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 11:31:13 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
Rituals are a way of reaching the Unconscious.
Actually Bee I'm writing because I'd like to know what town you're
in. I was telling my friend who lives North of Brisbane Australia about you &
she wanted to know & I couldn't tell her.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 11:39:42 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Abyss
I've several times in my life jumped over abysses & landed safely
on the other side.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 11:50:08 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: God loves you
Re God being male
At one point in my introspection not too many years ago I realized
that because I wanted to be among the best & brightest I modeled
myself to all male role models. I thought of female role models as being
inferior. It's very easy to do the way this civilisation is set up.
When I was little I whistled climbed trees & played punch ball with
the boys in my apartment house.
Liesel
Member Theosophy international
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 12:07:03 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: by-law vote
Dear Gerda Thompson
I think you've got a real good idea. Instead of railroading these
by-laws through now in such a short time there should be more time
to discuss them & we could vote on them lateron.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 12:30:12 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: The Abyss
Eldon:
>Is the term "abyss" meant to imply a "dark night of the soul"
>experience for those that cross it? Then it would be akin to
>the western experience of transcending the personality of
>rising to the pure experience of unqualified consciousness.
They are different but similar thing. The Abyss is
an objective "place" in the invisible worlds around us. It is
the demarcation line between the upper three cosmic planes
arupa and the lower four rupa. The Dark-Night-of-the-Soul
is an anguishing experience that most of us go through at
some point in which the human mind eventually
comes to terms with the fact that its limited nature will never
allow it to fully understand or comprehend the infinite spirit.
Technically the Abyss marks the end or beginning of
the Ego not the ego/personality which is limited to the
3rd plane. Thus the Abyss stands just above the
Reincarnating Ego and just below the atma.
>It would be more like a "sweet melting" leading
>to a sense of "eternal delight" rather than a "dive into
>the dark unknown" or a "shattering".
It is "eternal delight" to atmic consciousness
but the Abyss is a "dark unknown" of incoherence and
insanity e.g. the unconscious to the ego/personality.
It is exactly what the ego sees when it faces the
unconscious in Jungian terms. Not a pretty sight
because the ego sees its own death within.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 12:30:15 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Classic Meditation
>If I may add a bit from de Purucker's Studies in Occult Philosophy.
>"Do you know there is a way of living in thought rather than in thoughts.
> This illustrates the dual action of the manasic
>faculty the lower and the higher manas."
>This strikes me as coming about through meditation for one and when this
>state is operating even on and off then knowledge takes on a new meaning.
>It rises above personal likes and dislikes and then theosophy in its purer
>form becomes a part of us and is able to influence our inner self.
>Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
The classic meditation given in Tibetan Buddhism for this
is to watch each of your thoughts drift through your mind. Then try to
concentrate on the tiny space in between where one thought ends
and another begins. This space is empty like the sky and is exactly
what Purucker is talking about. Thanks for the quote Bee.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 12:30:18 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Newbies
Ann:
>I've also wondered if long-time members view newcomers with a certain amount of
>suspicion wondering if they'll try to change the established order. I get the
>impression they are questioning whether the newbie can make the grade stick it
>out and keep up with the group. Perhaps suspicion and skepticism regarding
>newcomers should be changed to helpfulness and optimism.
I have never been suspicious of newbies. Frustrated maybe but not
suspicious. I don't expect newbies to "keep up" with some of my
discussions. After studying for almost 30 years I would hope that I
am able to talk over their heads at some point. While this is
probably frustrating to them I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
a member at large and except for computer networking have
not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
others.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 12:30:22 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: One Reason for Psychism
Eldon to Alan:
>You make a good point here that we should be responsive to someone's
>*intent* and not what they literally say. If someone is wanting
>sympathy and a shoulder to cry on the appropriate reply would be
>different than if they were seeking to understand *why* something
>happened.
This is exactly the point that I tried to make awhile back
about the necessity for at least some psychism. The only way to
know how to really help a person is to be able to look into his/her
heart and sense what is wrong and what the real need is.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 12:31:34 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Error-Free Theosophy?
The idea that HPB was always correct is wrong IMHO.
She was usually right but sometimes what got published
is wrong and I can't say if she was really aware of
the errors or not.
For example lets look at the new Inner Group
Teachings. On page 180 we read "There are six or
seven Nadis or plexuses along the Spinal Cord; but
the term "Nadis" is not technical; it is used as
descriptive of any knot centre ganlion or similar
body" etc. Now as we all know today these lines
describe the chakras not the nadis. The chakras
are the centers or plexuses. The nadis are their
interconnecting channels. The author HPB? never
mentions "chakras" here and we must conclude that
the terminology used is erroneous and that the
author is discussing material that is not all that
familiar to him/her. For example the sushumna
ida and pingala are described with no mention
of the fact that these are the three primary nadis.
The paragraph on pages 181 and 182 is all
about the horrors of sex on the Path and concludes
"Therefore all sexual intercourse is forbidden to
the students of Practical Occultism." This
conclusion is either right or wrong depending on
exactly how we define "Practical Occultism." If
this is HPB's brand of theosophy then it is
probably true. But if it refers to occultism
in general as practiced for centuries in various
countries then it is false I give the Tibetan
use of a Karmamudra or female partner as only
one example. Sexual practices were employed in
both Hindu and Buddhist tantras and the tantras
are a valid school of occultism.
On page 131 we read about the Pratyeka-
Buddha the "rhinoceros" who "can never pass
beyond the third plane that of Jiva." This
is an error and is practically a slander to
Theravadin or Hinayanists. The average person
is able to explore the "third plane" which
is the mental plane the plane of the human
mind or manas which contains thoughts and
thought-forms. According to Ocean of Nectar
by Geshe Gyatso a Mahayanaist these
"rhinoceros-like Solitary Realizers" "dwell
in spiritual solitude" and so on far above
the third plane and the human mind. The
very fact that they are Buddhas requires
them to have crossed the Abyss into the fifth
plane which is where magical schools like
the OTO place them.
These three examples to me demonstrate
a danger in blindly accepting everything read
in theosophical literature. The theosophical
books were written by human beings and human
beings all make mistakes or their publishers
do.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:12:03 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: WTYF
[Liesel:]
>Also a few days ago there was news from the World Theosophical
>Youth Federation which is either non-existent or very dormant in the
>US. I wish the young people on the mailing list would get in touch
>with these guys & get something going in this country. They were
>talking about putting a facsimile of their membership applicatiion on
>theos-l.
I only saw that WTYF was being mentioned once here in theos-l.
Having been 'recruited' down in Adyar sic I was a bit sceptical
at first. But for a few times now I've received their newsletter called
'The Universal Human Family' and it's really a nice initiative. It may not
be much more than a few pages with thoughts written down and
greetings offered but it still represents a linking together of young
ones around the world. Perhaps when more people are joining
some real activities can be undertaken.
I *do* find it somewhat formal though with elections taking place for
people to take place in an executive committee.
Well compared to a group such as here on theos-l ;-
So let's see if more material turns up in the coming days. Otherwise
if anyone's interested I'll be glad to give the address snail or e-mail of
the people in Brazil who are organizing it.
/* Peter */
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:13:41 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
[Liesel:]
>In the same vein I don't approve of the By-laws revision that says
>newcomers have to wait for 02 years to be able to vote. What for?
Yeah what for? If I am correct this 2-year wait is necessary as well for
joining the E.S. It's like you have to prove yourself a good theosophist
or: member first. Isn't it possible that even young people already
have their feet planted firmly on the Path perhaps more than age-long
members? IMHO it's a person's own responsibility to make the best of it
to follow one's Dharma!
/* Peter */
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:13:43 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
When it comes to accomplishing one's daily work there is no technique of
Magick a period b which has not somewhere along the line been tried by
Jerry Schueler c which can turn it into a Picnick d which can produce
more success than choosing exactly the right occupation for oneself to begin
with.
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:35:25 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: J H-E Bylaws and Bailey
Jim:
> note: my
>only access to theos-l at that time was by Compu$erve and the list server
>charges quickly grew out of hand. I signed off shortly thereafter and
>subscribed again through a different channel only a short time ago.
I had much the same financial problem but decided
to stick it out with Compuserve. Recently they dropped all of
the charges for internet email and now its all free billing being
charged per your time like AOL instead of pay-forums and pay-mail.
Just in case you didn't know I suspect that you and others who
dropped out are the reason why the charges were dropped here on
Compuserve. Thanks.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:35:33 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
Malcolm:
>An observation of mine is about the relatioship bewteen thought and its
>translation into words. The observation is that the 'thoughts' are
>independent of thier translation into words; that thoughts exists before
>thier translation.
>Thoughts seam to appear in a whole lump it seems to take time and
>concentration to make the transistion into words. I am not not multilingual
>so would like input from anyone that is - "Do toughts exist independantly of
>the language you are thinking in?". Also there is the experience of 'not
>being able to find the word' ie the thought exists before its linguistic
>expression.
>
>I don't know how to analyse this in terms of higher mind / lower mind /
>brain etc. Does anywone haeve any input?
I prefer to think of it in terms of ideas which are then clothed
in thoughts which are then clothed in words. because of all of the
clothing disguises we often hear the words but miss the ideas
behind them.
>Anyway I have used this as a technique of meditation:- to try and stay in
>that space where thoughts are thoughts but before they become words. I
>found it a very effective way to 'quiet the mind' and gain insites into the
>mind's working.
Here you will find images. Words are rolled up into
thoughts which are rolled up into ideas which are expressed on
this level as pure images.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:35:38 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
Bee to Eldon:
> I don't really expect to see devotional people in Theosophy as it
>appeals to the intellect and promotes the wisdom as knowledge to the
>intellect and then for intellectual people the devotion comes later. We all
>start a various levels and types of spiritual pursuits.
True. I used to wonder why after describing so many
gods and goddesses in the literature theosophists were simply
ignoring them. Finally I realized the reason is that gods and
goddesses are not appealing to the intellect. The polytheism
of theosophy is simply another intellectual doctrinal note in a
long list of others. In magical schools and in religions we
converse with these deities via either prayer or ritual. In
theosophy we pretty much ignore them.
Bee to Eldon:
>There are lots of people who do not see knowledge as an intellectual study
>to be their way of spiritual growth.
I am one of these. However I do love to read and study.
I see this as building the scaffolding so to speak to keep the mind
on some kind of sanity track. The human mind requires a structure
or pattern of some kind in order to make sense of one's experiences.
Without such a "mind map" or intellectual background it is easy to
go off the deep end and loose one's perspective completely. The
thought "Am I crazy?" must be answered in some way. However
it is important to remember that this scaffolding i.e. world view is
always subject to change.
Bee to Eldon:
>Rituals do a lot for devotional people as they relate to spirit in that way.
>Rituals also get imbued with certain vibrations that these people can use in
>their meditations and can be felt by sensitive people. Sometimes rituals are
>what opens them to the spiritual life and then they have to discover which
>way is the best for them to follow.
There are formal conscious and informal unconscious
rituals that we can conduct. If anyone thinks that they never do rituals
then they are simply done unconscious as every psychologist knows.
Most Buddhist meditations try to employ the body speech and mind
together. Thus these yogic meditations are really rituals.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:35:41 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
> Ten minutes of reading ten hours of thought and ten days of
>meditating is the recipe for producing the Wisdom you can't share but the
>smile you can. . . .
>
>Richard Ihle
This is a great quote. Is it ok if i use this?
Thanks
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 14:43:35 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Theosophy on Internet
How to Subscribe to the Theosophy mail lists on Internet.
The five Theosophy lists are:
THEOS-L - General Theosophy discussions. This is the main
list.
THEOS-BUDS - Discussing the future of the TS.
THEOS-ROOTS - Discussing the future of the TS.
THEOS-NEWS - For posting news and announcements about
Theosophical events and activities.
THEOS-SPAN - For the benefit of Spanish Speaking members.
How to log on get on the Theosophy lists.
Send an e-mail message to the following address.
LISTSERV@VNET.NET
In the body of the message type just this line:
subscribe
If you have any questions please feel free to write to me by
e-mail at:
> From Internet 726621335@compuserve.com
> From Compuserve 726621335
Don DeGracia
Posted by ramadoss@eden.com. If you have any questions
please send a msg by e-mail to
ramadoss@eden.com
The person who coordinates the above lists is John E Mead.
If you have any questions please send e-mail to John at
jem@vnet.net
Please print this message and distribute copies to your
lodge branch or study center or anyone else who may be
interested. Participation and exchange of views ideas
comments by more individuals who are interested in Theosophy
whether they be members or not of any Theosophy group is
what is going to make these mail list very useful and
helpful to everybody.
---------------------end of message--------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:02:45 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
>From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
>Eldon to Alan:
>>You make a good point here that we should be responsive to someone's
>>*intent* and not what they literally say. If someone is wanting
>>sympathy and a shoulder to cry on the appropriate reply would be
>>different than if they were seeking to understand *why* something
>>happened.
>
> This is exactly the point that I tried to make awhile back
>about the necessity for at least some psychism. The only way to
>know how to really help a person is to be able to look into his/her
>heart and sense what is wrong and what the real need is.
>
> Jerry S.
That's exactly what I tried to say in a different way yesterday I think it
was. You can never tell why another person is acting the way they do.
It might seem terrible but there might be a very good inner reason.
So we should be tolerant.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:08:20 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
RE: Alice A. Bailey following discussion of chapter expulsion:
>JHE
>Indeed it does take "the thread into a conversational cul-de-sac"
>when I make a statement that cannot be backed with evidence. But
>what evidence can I reasonably be expected to offer to back up
>this statement?
I can't think of any. To continue with your post no I am not a member
of the ES and so the citations are not necessary. That really wasn't my
point however -- whether or not the AAB writings are "based" in ES material
doesn't seem especially significant. Both Alice and Foster Bailey were TSA
members after all. What does seem significant to me is the validity or
lack thereof of the ideas presented.
JHE
>[re: Man Whence How and Whither] ... and I think you will
>discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy already
>outlined.
Fair enough and thanks for the reference. But this doesn't address the
question of rightness does it? I was never clear in your earlier
discussions with Arvin on your position with respect to AAB
"neo-theooosophy" Saraydarian etc. excepting CWL.
>JM
>>Can you explain *why* ES members are "warned" about Bailey?
>
>JHE
>I wish I could. Reasons are not given that I know of. My guess
>is that the Arcane school is regarded as a rival organization.
I wish someone could. : I supect you're right about the perceived
"rivaly." Most likely there's also a bit of resentment on the part of the
TS regarding the Tibetan's assertion that the TS had drifted from its
original intention to something of a personality cult ~1930 and a training
ground for probationary disciples. That seems like the sort of thing that
could ruffle feathers.
RE: Eldon's point on discussing ES material as recounted: that's a good
point. The Bailey texts are published materials however so it may be
possible to look for a "fit" within theosophy. On the other hand I can
remember some particularly pointed discussions on here regarding
CWLeadbeater and he was accepted within Theosophy sort of anyway by
most at least for a time. Would this be an improper forum for the discussion?
RE: JHE's discussion w/ Arvin:
>JM
>Most of the posts seemed to be focussed on the potential for
>cross-referencing the Bailey material with "standard"
>Theosophical texts rather than discussing the ideas themselves.
>
>JHE
>Yes. That is as far as we were able to get. We agreed that
>HPB's writings predated AAB's and that AAB considered her
>writings to be extensions of HPB's. Therefore we agreed that it
>would be reasonable to compare AAB's ideas to HPB's and check for
>consistency. But before we got into the examination of the
>ideas Arvind admitted that his real agenda was to win disciples
>for AAB not to examine the writings..
Ah I remember that now. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to say Arvin
was looking "to win disciples for AAB" but I think I get your point.
RE: your offer to upload the 1.3Meg file -- thanks but I could probably
locate the original posts on a disk if necessary. You did jog my memory on
the ending of your discussion and besides you answered my earlier question
re: the ES position on AAB.
>JM
>PS: I would post Bailey's seven "new ideas" for the benefit of
>those unfamiliar with the writings of Alice A. Bailey and the
>Tibetan Djwhal Khul but I'm afraid of being expelled from
>cyberspace. :
>
>JHE
>I would be very interested in those ideas and would defend VERY
>LOUDLY your right to post them.
I did not expect anyone would question "the right" to post re: AAB but I'm
still wondering if this would be an improper forum. There is not a lot of
Saraydarian material posted on here for example though he is generally
regarded as a theosophical writer.
I was introduced to the AAB texts by friends in the Austin chapter of the TS
in my college days '70s. The Austin group was highly polarized along
generational lines and the younger set also accepted the Bailey texts. The
Austin group doesn't appear on the chapter list anymore but I do not know
when or why they faded. In one sense I suppose the Bailey influence has
been devisive since the TSA split in the early '20s.
Jim
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:10:21 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
Dear Jim
I wish you would put on Alice Bailey's 07 new ideas.
It might start a good discussion & I dare anyone to expel you from
cyberspace. They won't. You might get an argument. That's all.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:25:18 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Newbies
At 053700 PM 12/11/95 -0500 Jerry S wrote:
>suspicious. I don't expect newbies to "keep up" with some of my
>discussions. After studying for almost 30 years I would hope that I
>am able to talk over their heads at some point. While this is
>probably frustrating to them I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>a member at large and except for computer networking have
>not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
>others.
In the very early days of TS when there were very few written
publications the members were having a difficult time getting information
on various Theos* subjects. Reading your appreciation of theos-l and how it
would have helped you if it were there I see an analogy. I truly believe
Internet and the international access to theos-l is the next quantum leap
and we Theosophists should make full use of it no matter what the organized
entities/TS Organizations think about it or how they have reacted to it. I
am very objective about this whole thing. How many times have you seen any
of the elected/appointed officials at the national or regional level have
ever posted any messages here. It is either due to illiteracy on their part
or their indifference or what other reason they only know. As I pointed out
in a msg some time back let us all put ourself in the seat of HPB and
imagine how she would have used Internet as a means of attracting the
attention of the world to the Theosophical ideas. It may give us some
creative ideas.
I have always felt that JEM and any one else who took the initiative
to put the theos-xxxx together have done all of us a great favor and our
gratitude is due to all of them.
...doss
>
> Jerry S.
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:28:08 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws & Bailey
At 101100 PM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Liesel:
>>Dear Jim
>>I wish you would put on Alice Bailey's 07 new ideas.
>>It might start a good discussion & I dare anyone to expel you from
>>cyberspace. They won't. You might get an argument. That's all.
>
>I second the request.
>
>- ann bermingham
>
add my name to it. it does not matter what I personally think about
anybody's ideas. let each look at the ideas and decide for themselves. are
we not grown up to intelligently look and learn and decide for ourselves?
...doss
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:33:12 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: by-law vote
At 051000 PM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Dear Gerda Thompson
>
>I think you've got a real good idea. Instead of railroading these
>by-laws through now in such a short time there should be more time to
discuss them & we
>could vote on them lateron.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
>
do your really think anyone out there is thinking about thinking
thru this whole issue of railroading. their single thought at least to me
is how quickly we can get this thru and implement all that the new bylaws
empowers them to do.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:45:10 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
At 044800 PM 12/5/95 -0500 Ruben wrote:
>
>A memo from Brant Jackson on Proposed By-Law revisions:
>
>MEMO: To Members of the Atlanta Lodge
>From: Brant Jackson
>Subject By-Law revisions
>
> I have been asked by Louise Bromley to review the letter which
>Sy Ginsburg President of the Miami Branch circulated to various Lodges
>and individual members of the T.S. with regard to the proposed revisions
>of the By-Laws. As a practicing attorney and member of the National
>Judiciary Committee I am familiar with the By-Laws and the events out
>of which these proposed revisions arose. I have also had an opportunity
>to talk with John Algeo today with regards to my concerns. I would
>therefore respond to Louise Bromley's request for my opinions and
>responses to Mr. Ginsburg's stated concerns as follows:
Imagine a case in which relatively new members constitute the
>voting majority of a lodge's membership and also control the Board of
>Directors. The lodge has real property and other assets worth many
>hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Board of Directors and a majority
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of the lodge members acting under the influence of several powerful
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>members vote to sell the real property for the financial benefit of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>individual lodge members i.e. to give each member a pro-rata share of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sale proceeds.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The Lodge has not dissolved but remains a viable corporation to
>the transfer upon dissolution provisions of the By-Laws are not
>violated. While this is in violation of the tax laws the I.R.S would
>not find out for a long time and at best might merely revoke the
>corporation's tax exempt status and tax each member upon the distribution
>of the sale proceeds each received.
> I think all Theosophists would see such an act as violating the
>trust under which the property was given to that lodge and all the
>ideals of Theosophy as well. While offensive to us all many of us would
>think that the chances of it actually happening would be highly unlikely
>if not impossible. This scenario however actually happened recently
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>with the Boston Lodge which sold its building and has happened a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>number of times in other lodges across the world.
>
<>
Some very interesting statements coming from Brant Jackson. Would he
or any one in the administration at Olcott share facts and details of the
Boston Lodge sale? All of us who are members of the TSA would be interested
to know.
In addition in his letter of 192811 1995 to the Lodges and
Study Groups TSA National President states:
"...the facts about some past disagreements over property in this
country and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
abroad are not correctly stated in Sy's letter. The accounts in that letter are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
simplistic and skewed versions of matters that were very complex and do not
correspond
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^
with the facts as far as I know them."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are various reasons why the facts should be laid out in full.
Many of us do deal on a daily basis with very very complex matters. Let us
not underestimate the abilities of the participants here. Hence many many
here can fully comprehend and understand any complex matter if all the facts
surrounding them are made available. Why not post them here for everybody to
see?
Secondly if the Boston Lodge does indeed sell the property and
individual members were personally and financially benefitted then let us
know the facts openly and fully.
Individuals have gone to prison for conversion of tax exempt
property and assets for personal use or benefit. As law abiding citizens it
is our duty to report any law breakers. Has any report been filed with IRS?
If no such report of violation of tax laws has been made by those who know
the "facts" the question is why they have not done so? One wonders? There
are e-mail addresses to IRS and messages can be sent 24 hours a day and
these individuals are very high officials who can initiate quick action.
Lack of easy and free availability of facts and information on
situations quoted/described as above leaves very low level of credibility of
the statements made. Statements and conclusions fully supported by facts
have a high degree of credibility on their own. Credibility of entities -
individuals organizations nations etc are not created overnight; it is
gradually built over a time. And once credibility is lost it can never be
regained.
Let us lay on the table all the facts on the situations cited above
in support of the revision of bylaws. If the facts are convincing then it
will generate a lot of support for the changes. If on the other hand if
there is non response silence will speak for itself. And each one of us can
draw our own conclusion why no one who has the knowledge of the facts is not
speaking.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:52:48 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: theos-l
rev
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:56:24 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Internet
According to a recent poll 85% of the Internet users are below the age of
45 years. This is where the younger people are. One more pointer where we
can reach people and have theosophical information available to those
willing to use it.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:59:43 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: theos-l
Hi
Looks everthing very normal. Very quick distribution of messages.
Appreciate all the good work for the "cause".
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 16:12:38 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
At 073100 PM 12/9/95 -0500 Liesel wrote:
>
>I want to add on to those comments.
><< clip>>
>
>As for viewing newcomers with suspicion I'm not sure that it's
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>newcomers & not people who don't belong to the ES. I've gotten it
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>too & i've been in for a long time. I always have to prove again &
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>again that I know soemthing about Theosophy. I think it would be
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>great if olsder more seasoned theosophists would be helpful to the
>new ones.
>I've been trying to do that but what I get from the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Library is "Don't send me anybody new. We have enough to do." That's
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>not very helpful. Maybe they don't have enough money for more staff.
>Wel then maybe they could get more volunteers.
Responding to inquirers and helping them is their job. If they
cannot keep up with it they should bring to the attention to those higher
ups who are responsible. If I were you I will keep on refering the
inquirers and just ignore any responses like the above and if the inquirers
do not get good help in a reasonable time then it is time to see what can
be done. As they say the first impression is the most important impression
and we cannot lose a single opportunity to introduce a single soul to Theosophy.
>
>In the same vein I don't approve of the By-laws revision that says
>newcomers have to wait for 02 years to be able to vote. What for?
>
>I hope ther aren't tooo many typing errors on the message. I can
>only see the right half of what I'm writing & don't know how to
>correct it
>
>Liesel.
Don't worry about any typo's. You are not submitting a English Paper
Project in an English Language Class and is worried about the grade!!!
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 16:19:56 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Theosophy on Internet
TO: TSA Information/Membership Department
It may be a good idea to take a print out of the following Internet
instructions and provide it along with other informational documents to
inquirers and new members.
Humbly submitted for your kind consideration and appropriate action.
MK Ramadoss
Member TSA San Antonio Lodge Texas
How to Subscribe to the Theosophy mail lists on Internet.
The five Theosophy lists are:
THEOS-L - General Theosophy discussions. This is the main
list.
THEOS-BUDS - Discussing the future of the TS.
THEOS-ROOTS - Discussing the future of the TS.
THEOS-NEWS - For posting news and announcements about
Theosophical events and activities.
THEOS-SPAN - For the benefit of Spanish Speaking members.
How to log on get on the Theosophy lists.
Send an e-mail message to the following address.
LISTSERV@VNET.NET
In the body of the message type just this line:
subscribe
If you have any questions please feel free to write to me by
e-mail at:
> From Internet 726621335@compuserve.com
> From Compuserve 726621335
Don DeGracia
Posted by ramadoss@eden.com. If you have any questions
please send a msg by e-mail to
ramadoss@eden.com
The person who coordinates the above lists is John E Mead.
If you have any questions please send e-mail to John at
jem@vnet.net
Please print this message and distribute copies to your
lodge branch or study center or anyone else who may be
interested. Participation and exchange of views ideas
comments by more individuals who are interested in Theosophy
whether they be members or not of any Theosophy group is
what is going to make these mail list very useful and
helpful to everybody.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 16:23:15 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
> > When it comes to accomplishing one's daily work there is no technique of
> > Magick a period b which has not somewhere along the line been tried by
> > Jerry Schueler c which can turn it into a Picnick d which can produce
> > more success than choosing exactly the right occupation for oneself to begin
> > with.
> >
> > Richard Ihle
e that will not if spoken about aloud result in your excommunication
from Theosophy the immediate seizure and sale of all of your Lodge's
property and possessions and the public assertion from Wheaton that this
is really a good thing that is only designed to prevent great potential
damage.
Hi y'all ... am back at least to the degree very scarce time permits.
Bumped into Morya during an inner adventure who told me I could burn off
all remaining karma from those 17 embarrassing brutal-dictator past lives
if I stayed connected to Theosophy for another 02 weeks tee hee - oh
yeah ... Morya also told me to give all those who believe Wheaton has
finally gone too far and are finally ready to do something about it and
have been very busily researching the pragmatic means by which to
accomplish the badly-needed transformation the following message:
Its time.
[I don't know what this means ... perhaps some do -:].
Just kidding.
Sort of.
Love and giggles -JRC
[PS. Sorry for probably being almost instantly irritating again. I took a
vow but I guess it didn't help -:].
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 16:32:35 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Members-at-large and interent
At 033700 PM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>
>> ... I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
>> or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
>> learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
>> a member at large and except for computer networking have
>> not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
>> others.
>>
>> Jerry S.
>>
>YES! Finally a way to link members who don't have access to a local
>group. I too live to far from the nearest group in Atlanta to
>attend programs as often as I would like. I love being able to
>"discuss" theosophy or even just vicariously participate in
>discussions while lurking as frequently as I choose -- which is
>nearly every day!
>
>Lewis
>llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
>
Liked your feedback. As the theos-l acts like a buffer so that the
poster and recipient does not have to synchronize to communicate with each
other cyberspace "lodges" like this is going to be order of the day.
However if one needs social interaction then a formal lodge can help.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:03:35 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws & Bailey
Liesel:
>Dear Jim
>I wish you would put on Alice Bailey's 07 new ideas.
>It might start a good discussion & I dare anyone to expel you from
>cyberspace. They won't. You might get an argument. That's all.
I second the request.
- ann bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:11:38 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: JHE and Bailey
Bee Brown writes:
>JHE
>I have no problem with that. But those who claim to understand
>the SD because they have read what AAB CWL AB ect. said about
>the SD but find the SD itself too difficult to read--then I
>think they have a problem.
>
BB
I agree with that but the average person that I was talking about
isn't likely to get into involved discussions on the SD anyway.
They are mostly concerned with their own spiritual growth and
trying to get enough information to understand what is being
talked about in general in their lodge.
JHE
And "what is being talked about in general in their lodge"
depends upon what the material the members are attracted to in
the first place. When I taught "theosophical doctrine" I
always started with Blavatsky because her writings are primary
to all of the others including Judge. If I were teaching
Platonism I would start with Plato for the same reason. I
realize the SD is difficult but with a little guidance I found
that students had little or no trouble with the ~Key to
Theosophy.~
BB
If they are 'mentally lazy' then they won't be interested in
debating the finer points of theosophy. As Liesel said people
learn quickest if they are enthusiastic about what they are
reading and if that is A B then I would rather they did that than
say 'no no' and give them SD.
JHE
I hope Liesel doesn't faint if I say that I agree with her
100% :-. However much of the "enthusiasm" is generated by the
person who is presenting the material i.e. the class leader. If
the group wants to study AB then by all means study AB.
However this is where our perceptions may differ. I don't view
"Theosophy" as a seamless fabric of teachings running from one
writer to another. I see Theosophical teachings changing from
decade to decade sometimes because of fuller explanations
becoming available; sometimes because of more confused
explanations becoming more available; sometime for still other
reasons. But I view theosophical teachings in their historical
context. Therefore when I read HPB then I'm reading what HPB
was writing during such and such a period in her life under such
and such circumstances. When I read CWL then I'm reading what
CWL was writing during such and such a period under such and
such circumstances....
BB
I raved on about de Purucker and how much easier he was to
understand to one of our members who I knew was upset at not
understanding SD and she took his book out. Two weeks later it
was returned and nothing has been said since. As it was one
of his larger books it could not have been read in two weeks.
JHE
Perhaps de Purucker was too difficult also. Or perhaps he
didn't like Purucker's sermonesque style. That is one the of
great things about the theosophical writings we have such a
variety of approaches and styles. Personally I found that I
have to read some chapters of ~Fundamentals of the Esoteric
Philosophy~ three or four times before I felt that I had a
mastery of the points he was making. In my thirty years
experience of teaching theosophy I found that only a small
minority of students are willing to go though that much trouble.
BB
If people want to discuss and they say their source is other than
SD then of course it is debatable how much store to put on their
ideas but even reading SD does not preclude misunderstanding what
HPB meant by what she wrote.
JHE
Amen. I remember a member with whom I used to correspond
proposing to the Lodge that they study the SD. The President at
first resisted then finally consented to share his personal
conversations with M and KH on the SD rather then going through
the trouble of reading it.
BB
So it seems to boil down to each persons interpretation of what
they have read what ever that may be. On this list debate goes
on between persons who are familiar with the same books yet see
things differently. That is good for the rest of us as we then
have to think about it and decide how we each understand it. This
is discrimination at work.
JHE
Right.
JHE
> ~Man Whence How and Whither~ was published in 1913. Read
> through as early an edition as you can find and I think you
>will discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy
>already outlined.
MK Ramadoss
It is my recollection that some of the material was serialized in
Adyar Theosophist before they were put in a book form and
published. May be this source should also be checked.
JHE
Are you thinking of "Rents in the Veil of Time"?
> JHE
> Remember Krishnamurti's "Truth is a pathless land" speech that
>he gave in 1930? That was protest against the "spiritual
>authority" held by the TS at the time. Van der Leeuw was
>alluding to this
MKR
Before he died Krishnaji held a private discussion session in
which he was questioned and discussed the issue of Spritual
Hierachy and the TS and at some time in the future I hope to
see it published. I do not know if Krishnaji had indicated his
personal preference on publishing the discussion. I believe that
he would never have discussed this issue unless he felt that it
is something on which he has something to say. Let us wait for
its publication. I hope it is not something shocking for some
Theosophists.
JHE
It seems that K had a lot of things to say that might shock
Theosophists. But no one seems to publish them. KFA has stayed
with K's public talks after 1930 but not his more private
remarks. Too bad--the off cut are almost always more
interesting.
Jim Meier writes:
That really wasn't my point however -- whether or not the AAB
writings are "based" in ES material doesn't seem especially
significant. Both Alice and Foster Bailey were TSA members
after all. What does seem significant to me is the validity or
lack thereof of the ideas presented.
JHE
Because I approach occult teachings from a historical
context the succession of ideas from one source to another is
very relevant to me and is very germane to the question of
"validity." I understand AAB and DK's concept about intuitively
grasping the genuiness of teachings. I do that too but my
"intuitive perceptions" lead me down relatively untraveled paths
sometimes because my background is quite different from most
people.
JHE
>[re: Man Whence How and Whither] ... and I think you will
>discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy
>already outlined.
JM
Fair enough and thanks for the reference. But this doesn't
address the question of rightness does it? I was never clear in
your earlier discussions with Arvin on your position with respect
to AAB "neo-theooosophy" Saraydarian etc. excepting CWL.
JHE
My position was one of an investigator. I was a person
knowledgeable about HPB but less so about AAB. Arvind was
knowledgeable about AAB but less so about HPB. So I proposed a
dialogue and comparison of ideas for our mutual education. As
for "neo-theosophy" I perceive it as a system distinct from pre
1895 theosophy. I don't think Saradarian really entered the
discussions. He used to drop in and out of SD classes I used to
hold and I used to invite him to do public talks at the LA
Branch twice a year. Otherwise I didn't have much contact with
him. He lives in Arizona now.
>JM
>>Can you explain *why* ES members are "warned" about Bailey?
>
>JHE
>I wish I could. Reasons are not given that I know of. My guess
>is that the Arcane school is regarded as a rival organization.
JM
I wish someone could. : I suspect you're right about the
perceived "rivaly." Most likely there's also a bit of
resentment on the part of the TS regarding the Tibetan's
assertion that the TS had drifted from its original intention to
something of a personality cult ~1930 and a training ground for
probationary disciples. That seems like the sort of thing that
could ruffle feathers.
JHE
I'm sure that is a factor.
JM
RE: Eldon's point on discussing ES material as recounted:
that's a good point. The Bailey texts are published materials
however so it may be possible to look for a "fit" within
theosophy. On the other hand I can remember some particularly
pointed discussions on here regarding CWLeadbeater and he was
accepted within Theosophy sort of anyway by most at least for
a time. Would this be an improper forum for the discussion?
JHE
I think discussion on Bailey have raised objection in the
past with participants arguing that the Arcane school has its
own discussion group. I think the objections were fair enough.
On the other hand comparative discussions of Theosophy and ....
should be fair game.
JHE
>....But before we got into the examination of the ideas Arvind
>admitted that his real agenda was to win disciples for AAB not
>to examine the writings..
JM
>Ah I remember that now. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate
>to say Arvin was looking "to win disciples for AAB" but I think
>I get your point.
JHE
I pretty sure that he used the word "disciples."
>JM
>PS: I would post Bailey's seven "new ideas" for the benefit of
>those unfamiliar with the writings of Alice A. Bailey and the
>Tibetan Djwhal Khul but I'm afraid of being expelled from
>cyberspace. :
>
>JHE
>I would be very interested in those ideas and would defend VERY
>LOUDLY your right to post them.
JM
I did not expect anyone would question "the right" to post re:
AAB but I'm still wondering if this would be an improper forum.
There is not a lot of Saraydarian material posted on here for
example though he is generally regarded as a theosophical
writer.
JHE
Probably some will object if you used this net as a forum
for Arcane School or Aquarian Foundation Material and I think
rightly so. But in this case you would be posting something in
context to a "theosophical discussion" so I don't see way
anyone would object. In fact several of us have already asked
you to post these ideas.
JM
I was introduced to the AAB texts by friends in the Austin
chapter of the TS in my college days '70s. The Austin group
was highly polarized along generational lines and the younger
set also accepted the Bailey texts. The Austin group doesn't
appear on the chapter list anymore but I do not know when or why
they faded. In one sense I suppose the Bailey influence has
been devisive since the TSA split in the early '20s.
JHE
Yes. There seems to be quite a story here that needs to be
put together and told.
Jerry HE
International Theosophist
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:47:34 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws and Bailey
At 104700 AM 12/11/95 -0500 Eldon wrote:
>
>Jerry H-E:
>
>>I do remember mentioning the ES connection during those conversations
>>and receiving a long response from Eldon Tucker questioning
>>whether or not I should discuss "classified" ES material on a
>>public forum.
>
>I don't usually repost things but it's been about two years and
>the subject is important. Since you brought up the subject and
>my original posting isn't too long I'm reposting it for the new
>people on the list:
>
>-- Eldon
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: 20 199401 085323 -0500
>From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
>Subject: ethics and confidential materials
>
>A comment of Jerry H-E's got me thinking about the ethics of having
>other people's confidential materials. Here are my thoughts.
>
>----
>
>An interesting ethical question for us to consider confidential
>materials. Is it ever right to possess and study materials
>belonging to other people materials that were considered confidential
>and not entrusted to oneself?
>
>Does the right to possess and to utilize the materials depend solely
>upon how they were acquired or are their certain ethical principles
>involved that are independent of anything one may have agreed to? Are
>there certain principles that are right to follow regardless of whether
>we can be sanctioned or found at fault by others?
>
>Say that we've found a photocopy of someone's diary in a trash bin or
>perhaps in a folder at a used bookstore. Is it okay to freely use it
>without the writer's permission? What is a fair use of the materials in
>these circumstances?
>
>One of us may have materials of the Esoteric School of Theosophy an
>organization associated with the Adyar Theosophical Society. We all may
>come across materials in bookstores or from friends. How do we handle
>them?
>
>When we have materials where their owner intends to keep them secret
>and it is clearly known that those entrusted with the materials are
>sworn to secrecy does it matter if we came into possession of them
>through an round-about way?
>
>For us to obtain something like the Adyar E.S. materials someone had
>to intentionally or inadvertently break their trust with the
>organization to allow the materials to come into our hands. Are we
>ethically bound to keep them secret or can we say that because we've
>made no specific pledge to do so that we are free to reveal them at
>our own discretion?
>
>I would say that there is a karmic responsibility to the person whom
>betrayed the secrecy and that we may add to their bad karma and make
>some for ourselves depending upon how we handle the situation.
>
>It is not a cut-and-dry situation where a blanket rule can be made.
>But when we read materials meant to be secret and talk about them we
>are in a delicate situation one where we could possible do harm.
>
>I'm not trying to make a case that the Adyar E.S. secrets are
>especially esoteric--except to those who believe in the
>Besant/Leadbeater variant of Theosophy--but there is a direct analogy
>to the real Mysteries. Would we reveal their secrets if we were to come
>across them?
>
>There are different degrees of betrayal of a secret. We could join an
>organization but be unfaithful to our pledges and reveal information
>entrusted to us. We could secretly copy materials that were not meant
>for us to see or have. Or we could obtain materials that were lost by
>their owner or inadvertenly released materials never intended to be
>let go of and only coming to us due to someone's mistake.
>
>It is not always though in the best interest of others that secrets
>be kept beyond a certain point. Consider the Mahatma Letters. They
>certainly needed to be secret at the time that they were being written.
>But by the 1920's things had changed and they were needed to help
>bring to public attention again the original Theosophy that HPB taught.
>
>In our time we have seen similar decisions being made regarding the
>Point Loma esoteric materials. The higher E.S. materials were published
>as "The Dialogues of G. de Purucker." Then the first degree E.S.
>materials were published first by Theosophical University Press
>revised and edited into a book called "The Fountain-Source of
>Occultism." They were later printed in nearly the original form of the
>twelve books by Point Loma Publications.
>
>A case could be made that times change and that materials that were
>meant to be esoteric in one time could be published at a later date.
>But we are always faced with the question: When does our need to
>present some materials exceed the right of others to keep it hidden?
>And is the exposing of the materials a form of our intervention in or
>interference with the karma of another the karma of the person whose
>decision or mistake allowed the materials to get into our hands?
>
>Maybe the distinction could be made between the theosophical doctrines
>as presented within the esoteric theosophical groups and the actual
>Mystery doctrines which come to us through special training or through
>some form of inner contact or guidance. Perhaps the materials taught in
>the outer organizations were meant to eventually become public and
>that is why they were allowed to be written down and given wide
>distribution. The other secrets of the Mysteries perhaps only come
>to those whose lips are already sealed against their betrayal.
>
>We hear that we are to Know to Dare to Will and to Keep Silent! I
>think that we are capable of such. I think that we know when we have
>something that should go unmentioned. And that we will simply forget
>or lose touch with or never really know those great Truths that we
>would betray. It is not that we are talking about things that are
>beyond words just beyond *our* words beyond our right to speak of
>them. And we will know too when our lips are unsealed and we should
>share what we have learned.
>
A very well presented background. I think it is always very
difficult to decide whether some material one knows is "private" to be
published. I think that when time is ripe the past "private" "esoteric"
"secret" material will become exoteric one way or the other.
There are two classic instances/incidents that I would like to
relate. One relates to the Seven Rays. Until a book was written by Ernest
Wood there was not much information formally available. According to Wood
much of the material he came into possession were learnt by himself/or
provided to him by his Teacher. When wood mentioned about the material to
CWL the later pulled out a table that he had drawn up forty years prior to
it and told Wood that that was the ONLY information he had on seven rays and
was astounded about the amount of information that Wood had come into his
possession. It is reported that CWL asked Wood to stop everything that the
latter was doing and write down everything he knew about seven rays. The
whole book was written in a period of one week and when the manuscript was
shown to CWL not a single word was altered. There is a mention by Wood that
not much information was released prior to his publication since the
information on seven rays can be misused and time was not ripe.
The second instance was in the case of the famous Hindu reformer
Shri. Ramanujacharya. His worldly teached told him of some secrets and was
told that were he ever to reveal them his head will blow off. When he
learnt of the message that was to be secret he realized that the masses
could immensely benefit by them. So he immediately climbed to the top of the
Hindu Temple Gopuram Minaret and yelled the message to the crowd below so
that he could pass on the message before his head blows off. Of course his
head did not blow off.
I feel that time makes many esoteric information exoteric because
the former esoteric information could benefit the masses.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:57:41 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: re re beginner's list
Alan writes:
My *very first* book on Theosophy was Jinarajadasa's ~First
Principles of Theosophy~ which was hard going and took me two
weeks to read - but I got just about all the basics from a
one-volume clearly printed volume.
JHE
Actually that was also the first book on theosophy that I
seriously read--and it helped to peak my interest in astronomy.
Ironically through my new interest in astronomy I came to
realize that the science especially the astronomy is very out
of date. What is worse CJ's teachings which are essentially
restatements of CWL's hang on that scientific mis-information.
I would think that most anyone with a basic scientific background
would be put off of theosophy if they read it.
A little over fifteen years ago a representative from TPH
Wheaton made a business trip to our Lodge and book store. He
mentioned that TPH London would not reprint ~First Principles~
because of the out-of-date science. On the other hand I'm
surprised at how many people still value that book. Used copies
are very much in demand. It seems that TPH has a good model for
a basic textbook on theosophy here but it needs to be completely
rewritten.
Jerry HE
Member Theosophy International
International Theosophist
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 18:23:57 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Newbies
At 122500 AM 12/12/95 -0500 you wrote:
>>
>> I truly believe
>> Internet and the international access to theos-l is the next quantum leap
>> and we Theosophists should make full use of it no matter what the organized
>> entities/TS Organizations think about it or how they have reacted to it. I
>> am very objective about this whole thing. How many times have you seen any
>> of the elected/appointed officials at the national or regional level have
>> ever posted any messages here. It is either due to illiteracy on their part
>> or their indifference or what other reason they only know. As I pointed out
>> in a msg some time back let us all put ourself in the seat of HPB and
>> imagine how she would have used Internet as a means of attracting the
>> attention of the world to the Theosophical ideas. It may give us some
>> creative ideas.
>
>I expect she would have signed up for THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL
>and used a similar sig to mine but probably on a higher plane :-
>
>How about you? :-
>
>> ...doss
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
Probably sign as a Human Being!!!
.doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 18:24:00 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: by-law vote
At 011600 AM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>
>The following is the complete text of the letter to the American Theosophist
>from Gerda Thompson on the matter of the by-law changes being voted on. I
>hope this time it gets on because if it does not she may assualt me with a
>broccoli stalk
>Chuck Cosimano
>
>>
>=0D
>Sep 1995 AT Letter to the Editor
>=0D
>Dear Fellow TSA Members:
>=0D
>I would like to start this by reminding you that the TSA is a democratic =
>non-profit membership organization. The power and responsibility in the c=
>onducting of our affairs rests in each and everyone of us to know what is=
> going on at our Administrative Headquarters - Olcott. And to hold our e=
>lected Board of Directors accountable for their omissions as well as acti=
>ons.
>=0D
>Did you know that this latest round of By Law revisions began two years a=
>go? That just a year ago a very small number of members were informed th=
>at major changes to the By Laws were being contemplated? Some at the inst=
>igation of the International Society? Why wasn't the general membership i=
>nformed of these vital matters and denied the opportunity to contribute=
> their ideas and suggestions? We have an "official members' magazine" - T=
>he American Theosophist. Why wasn't this vehicle used to informed the mem=
>bership? If not a special letter sent to every member?
Sometime before the 1994 Annual Meeting of TS I heard thru a member
that some changes to the bylaws are in the works. As soon as I learnt about
it I wanted to know from the horse's mouth and sent a handwritten fax to
the National President. I did get a reply but it got nowhere and nothing was
ever mentioned about any thinking of the bylaws change. So when I recently
got the AT publishing the numerous changes I was surprised and immediately
shot off several letters to the National President touching upon several
issues of importance based on my experience and professional training. All
communication with the National President was in writing so that the
communication is very precise and all elected Board Members and the
International President were copied every correspondence. I wanted to keep
everybody fully informed. There were also some very serious issues relating
to the TIT and I sent Chairman of the Board of Trustees the correspondence
for his information and action. Any request for facts and information from
National President was mostly met with silence.
>=0D
>I know the general reasoning the Board will state why these comprehensive=
> by-law revisions were kept virtually secret. That too many people contri=
>buting their suggestions would make things unwieldy for the three-person =
>By Law Committee. That the goal of these revisions changed over time from=
> being a simple clean-up-job to the major undertaking it evolved into. Th=
>at the changes instigated at the International level weren't complete unt=
>il last Dec's General Council meeting in Adyar. These reasons are
>NEITHER VALID NOR JUSTIFIED in my opinion from keeping the general memb=
>ership informed of the status of the By Law Committee's work!
>=0D
>Now that the general membership is being informed another question raises=
> its head. Why the rush in voting? There will only be two AT issues out b=
>efore the voting is completed. Now that we have or will have a copy of=
> the proposed by-laws don't they warrant a serious consideration? Remembe=
>r this is the product of two years work by people who have put in much ti=
>me and effort with personal sacrifices.
>=0D
>Again I know the basic line of reasoning the Board will take. They will =
>say that as some of the changes have to do with electing the Board and as=
> next year is our triennial elections that these changes must be put in =
>
>place for that. This is nonsense! We can have our election operating unde=
>r the present system. This present system works very well and I don't see=
> how the welfare of the TSA would be unduly compromised by using the "ol=
>d rules" another time.
>=0D
>In fairness to the By Law Committee and to the TSA membership I would pro=
>pose that the vote on the revised By Laws be postponed until next Fall. B=
>esides the changes effecting the election of the Board there are two subs=
>tantive issues [items 09 and 17] that will have an enormous impact on the =
>individual member and the organizational structure. These are two very se=
>rious issues and can't be handled casually. A postponement would give all=
> the members ample time to talk among themselves at Study Center Branch =
>and Federation meetings. Also that the Annual Meeting for 1996 be devoted=
> to discussing the By Laws and TSA policies in general as we prepare to e=
>nter the 21st Century.
>=0D
>If a postponement of the referendum is not forthcoming then especially b=
>ecause of the critical nature of [9] and [17] which I will outline below=
> I urge you to VOTE NO ON ALL THE ITEMS. The rational and justification=
> for [9] and [17] is vague and tenuous in some parts and completely lack=
>ing in others.
>=0D
>[9] By Law 04 Section 09 Termination of Membership
>Adyar has asked for this inclusion in our By Laws referring to Internatio=
>nal Rule 9. To my knowledge this is the first time that an expulsion clau=
>se would be included in our By Laws. Approximately ten years ago a Board =
>member prior to the Annual Meeting proposed something similar which was s=
>o strenuously rejected by the members and at the Annual Meeting that it n=
>ever came up for a vote. I have asked for background and reasoning for th=
>is item but have received none. I also asked what criterion would be use=
>d and who is to formulate it? Again all I got was silence! I proposed th=
>at a parameter of conduct be included in the By Law which was also reject=
>ed. If no clear guidelines are established the reasons for "termination" =
>could readily change over time because of the rotation on and off the Boa=
>rd. This means that the reasons for excommunication could easily degenera=
>te into personality and/or political differences. The need for a two-thir=
>ds Board vote doesn't necessarily protect a member from this contingency.=
> I strongly urge you to VOTE NO ON ITEM [9]!
>=0D
>[17] By Law 09 Section 03 Lodge Organization
>The second paragraph of this section begins "Each lodge shall be a fully=
> autonomous body...". If this is truly the case then why is [17] being p=
>roposed? Financial autonomy is just as important as philosophical autonom=
>y. I know that there have been a few difficulties in the past but when I=
> asked for explanations all I got were these general statements: 01 prot=
>ection for legal official? members when factions occur; and 02 to stop=
> a local group from unilaterally wanting to withdraw from the TSA and do =
>something else or affiliate with another organization and use the lodge f=
>unds. These two types of problems can be handled without the TSA taking o=
>ver financial control of all the Branches. Even without this clause there=
> is nothing stopping a Branch from asking for nor the TSA from offering t=
>o help with any financial transactions. It all hinges on the phrase "suc=
>h consent not to be unreasonably withheld". Point d states that the TSA=
> has legal recourse for enforcing this. But what remedy does a Branch hav=
>e if they feel that TSA consent has been unreasonably withheld? Can a Bra=
>nch especially those which are incorporated have legal recourse also? T=
>he way this whole item has been written the TSA if they so choose can h=
>ave a strangle-hold over a Branches' finances. And through the finances c=
>an influence both collectively and individually the Branches philosophica=
>l autonomy. I strongly urge you to also VOTE NO ON ITEM [17]!
>=0D
>The general direction of the Theosophical Society in American our offici=
>al policies are the responsibility of the members to formulate and the B=
>oard of Directors to execute. Think about the impact this version of the =
>By Laws will have on the future growth and prosperity of the TSA. Will it=
> be beneficial or detrimental? If a postponement of the By Law referendum=
> is not forthcoming I again urge you to VOTE NO on all nineteen items bu=
>t most especially [9] and [17]!
>=0D
>Fraternally yours
>Gerda J. Thompson
>
>--PART.BOUNDARY.0.427.mail06.mail.aol.com.818659822--
>
Gerda: You have presented very logical and clear suggestions. I was
hoping that your letter will be published in the AT. Today I received the AT
and there were only three comments published. Two detailed ones arguing
against and one one line is support of the changes. Reading AT and reading
the above each one can come to ones own conclusions. It's providential that
we have Internet today and what you post is uncensored and is for everyone
to see all over the whole world. Again let us hope better judgement will
prevail and the bylaws revision is postponed; it's never too late.
..doss
PS: Chuck:
You have done an excellent job of uploading the message. Looking
forward to more messages.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 18:30:00 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: WTYF
At 010000 AM 12/12/95 -0500 you wrote:
>
> To Malcolm:
>
>>>We in New Zealand are backing this organisation in order to foster youth
>>membership of the theosophical society and its objectives around the world
>>as it is obvious that the TS has and aging membership and it is often very
>>difficult for younger new members to feel a sense of belonging.
>
> Well... well... This may sound tragic or comic but I study
>Theosophy
>since I was seventeen now I'm in the return of Saturn as a Lodge president
>and I never ever received one sole communication from WYTF although
>I had met many times the "retired" president from this "world"
organization
>Arnaldo Sison his wife Marina sending regular mails from my branch to theirs.
>They do know my branch has a good number of young members because
>they saw them at theosophical meetings.
>
> I'm glad the organization is working people of many countries do
>contribute
>to the newsletter but at the same time shoked by the "fact" that
>the WYTF
>don't communicate with the Lodges of the country where its headquarters
>is located. It is a very strange situation to see news about this from
>New Zealand
>thousands of miles away when people envolved live at the same country do
>speak the same language as in the case of Brazil.
>
Osmar: You are seeing the power of communication in Internet. So
distance is no longer the problem. When I posted a msg requesting the
receipt to be acknowledged the very first one was from NZ even though I am
in the USA. Glad you have access to Internet.
....doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 18:42:20 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: by-law vote
>At 011600 AM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>>
>>The following is the complete text of the letter to the American Theosophist
>>from Gerda Thompson on the matter of the by-law changes being voted on. I
>>hope this time it gets on because if it does not she may assualt me with a
>>broccoli stalk
>>Chuck Cosimano
>>
>>>
>>=0D
>>Sep 1995 AT Letter to the Editor
>>=0D
>>Dear Fellow TSA Members:
>>=0D
>>I would like to start this by reminding you that the TSA is a democratic =
>>non-profit membership organization. The power and responsibility in the c=
>>onducting of our affairs rests in each and everyone of us to know what is=
>> going on at our Administrative Headquarters - Olcott. And to hold our e=
>>lected Board of Directors accountable for their omissions as well as acti=
>>ons.
>>=0D
>>Did you know that this latest round of By Law revisions began two years a=
>>go? That just a year ago a very small number of members were informed th=
>>at major changes to the By Laws were being contemplated? Some at the inst=
>>igation of the International Society? Why wasn't the general membership i=
>>nformed of these vital matters and denied the opportunity to contribute=
>> their ideas and suggestions? We have an "official members' magazine" - T=
>>he American Theosophist. Why wasn't this vehicle used to informed the mem=
>>bership? If not a special letter sent to every member?
>
> ==================================================================
Sometime before the 1994 Annual Meeting of TS I heard thru a member
that some changes to the bylaws are in the works. As soon as I learnt about
it I wanted to know from the horse's mouth and sent a handwritten fax to
the National President. I did get a reply but it got nowhere and nothing was
ever mentioned about any thinking of the bylaws change. So when I recently
got the AT publishing the numerous changes I was surprised and immediately
shot off several letters to the National President touching upon several
issues of importance based on my experience and professional training. All
communication with the National President was in writing so that the
communication is very precise and all elected Board Members and the
International President were copied every correspondence. I wanted to keep
everybody fully informed. There were also some very serious issues relating
to the TIT and I sent Chairman of the Board of Trustees the correspondence
for his information and action. Any request for facts and information from
National President was mostly met with silence.
...doss
=============================================================================
>
>>=0D
>>I know the general reasoning the Board will state why these comprehensive=
>> by-law revisions were kept virtually secret. That too many people contri=
>>buting their suggestions would make things unwieldy for the three-person =
>>By Law Committee. That the goal of these revisions changed over time from=
>> being a simple clean-up-job to the major undertaking it evolved into. Th=
>>at the changes instigated at the International level weren't complete unt=
>>il last Dec's General Council meeting in Adyar. These reasons are
>>NEITHER VALID NOR JUSTIFIED in my opinion from keeping the general memb=
>>ership informed of the status of the By Law Committee's work!
>>=0D
>>Now that the general membership is being informed another question raises=
>> its head. Why the rush in voting? There will only be two AT issues out b=
>>efore the voting is completed. Now that we have or will have a copy of=
>> the proposed by-laws don't they warrant a serious consideration? Remembe=
>>r this is the product of two years work by people who have put in much ti=
>>me and effort with personal sacrifices.
>>=0D
>>Again I know the basic line of reasoning the Board will take. They will =
>>say that as some of the changes have to do with electing the Board and as=
>> next year is our triennial elections that these changes must be put in =
>>
>>place for that. This is nonsense! We can have our election operating unde=
>>r the present system. This present system works very well and I don't see=
>> how the welfare of the TSA would be unduly compromised by using the "ol=
>>d rules" another time.
>>=0D
>>In fairness to the By Law Committee and to the TSA membership I would pro=
>>pose that the vote on the revised By Laws be postponed until next Fall. B=
>>esides the changes effecting the election of the Board there are two subs=
>>tantive issues [items 09 and 17] that will have an enormous impact on the =
>>individual member and the organizational structure. These are two very se=
>>rious issues and can't be handled casually. A postponement would give all=
>> the members ample time to talk among themselves at Study Center Branch =
>>and Federation meetings. Also that the Annual Meeting for 1996 be devoted=
>> to discussing the By Laws and TSA policies in general as we prepare to e=
>>nter the 21st Century.
>>=0D
>>If a postponement of the referendum is not forthcoming then especially b=
>>ecause of the critical nature of [9] and [17] which I will outline below=
>> I urge you to VOTE NO ON ALL THE ITEMS. The rational and justification=
>> for [9] and [17] is vague and tenuous in some parts and completely lack=
>>ing in others.
>>=0D
>>[9] By Law 04 Section 09 Termination of Membership
>>Adyar has asked for this inclusion in our By Laws referring to Internatio=
>>nal Rule 9. To my knowledge this is the first time that an expulsion clau=
>>se would be included in our By Laws. Approximately ten years ago a Board =
>>member prior to the Annual Meeting proposed something similar which was s=
>>o strenuously rejected by the members and at the Annual Meeting that it n=
>>ever came up for a vote. I have asked for background and reasoning for th=
>>is item but have received none. I also asked what criterion would be use=
>>d and who is to formulate it? Again all I got was silence! I proposed th=
>>at a parameter of conduct be included in the By Law which was also reject=
>>ed. If no clear guidelines are established the reasons for "termination" =
>>could readily change over time because of the rotation on and off the Boa=
>>rd. This means that the reasons for excommunication could easily degenera=
>>te into personality and/or political differences. The need for a two-thir=
>>ds Board vote doesn't necessarily protect a member from this contingency.=
>> I strongly urge you to VOTE NO ON ITEM [9]!
>>=0D
>>[17] By Law 09 Section 03 Lodge Organization
>>The second paragraph of this section begins "Each lodge shall be a fully=
>> autonomous body...". If this is truly the case then why is [17] being p=
>>roposed? Financial autonomy is just as important as philosophical autonom=
>>y. I know that there have been a few difficulties in the past but when I=
>> asked for explanations all I got were these general statements: 01 prot=
>>ection for legal official? members when factions occur; and 02 to stop=
>> a local group from unilaterally wanting to withdraw from the TSA and do =
>>something else or affiliate with another organization and use the lodge f=
>>unds. These two types of problems can be handled without the TSA taking o=
>>ver financial control of all the Branches. Even without this clause there=
>> is nothing stopping a Branch from asking for nor the TSA from offering t=
>>o help with any financial transactions. It all hinges on the phrase "suc=
>>h consent not to be unreasonably withheld". Point d states that the TSA=
>> has legal recourse for enforcing this. But what remedy does a Branch hav=
>>e if they feel that TSA consent has been unreasonably withheld? Can a Bra=
>>nch especially those which are incorporated have legal recourse also? T=
>>he way this whole item has been written the TSA if they so choose can h=
>>ave a strangle-hold over a Branches' finances. And through the finances c=
>>an influence both collectively and individually the Branches philosophica=
>>l autonomy. I strongly urge you to also VOTE NO ON ITEM [17]!
>>=0D
>>The general direction of the Theosophical Society in American our offici=
>>al policies are the responsibility of the members to formulate and the B=
>>oard of Directors to execute. Think about the impact this version of the =
>>By Laws will have on the future growth and prosperity of the TSA. Will it=
>> be beneficial or detrimental? If a postponement of the By Law referendum=
>> is not forthcoming I again urge you to VOTE NO on all nineteen items bu=
>>t most especially [9] and [17]!
>>=0D
>>Fraternally yours
>>Gerda J. Thompson
>>
>>--PART.BOUNDARY.0.427.mail06.mail.aol.com.818659822--
>>
>
> Gerda: You have presented very logical and clear suggestions. I was
hoping that your letter will be published in the AT. Today I received the AT
and there were only three comments published. Two detailed ones arguing
against and one one line is support of the changes. Reading AT and reading
the above each one can come to ones own conclusions. It's providential that
we have Internet today and what you post is uncensored and is for everyone
to see all over the whole world. Again let us hope better judgement will
prevail and the bylaws revision is postponed; it's never too late.
>
>...doss
>
>PS: Chuck:
>
> You have done an excellent job of uploading the message. Looking
forward to more messages.
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 19:50:43 GMT
From: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz malcolm idoine
Subject: WTYF
World Theosophical Youth Federation
The World Theosophical Youth Federation was founded in 1923 by leading
member of the Theosophical Society to further and support the Objects of the
Society among young people. Radha Burnier is the Honorary Presidentie it is
set up a bit like a section. For the past few years it has been
administered from Brazil but has international representation on its
committee. There is no age restriction on membership most members are
either younger teenage & 20's 2nd generation theosophists or new members
in their 20's & 30's. There are no restrictions or requirements regarding
membership to other theosophical organisations.
We in New Zealand are backing this organisation in order to foster youth
membership of the theosophical society and its objectives around the world
as it is obvious that the TS has and aging membership and it is often very
difficult for younger new members to feel a sense of belonging.
I said in a previous post that I would create and e-version of the WTYF
membership form however it looks a little complicated. If you are
interested in joining please e-mail to me malcolmi@iconz.co.nz or write to
me Malcolm Idoine 26 Arthur St Ponsonby Auckland New Zealand and I
will post you a membership form a copy of the constitution and a leaflet
about the organisation. Membership is free but you may like to make a
contribution towards postage as this is currently being funded by the
Brazilian and New Zealand sections.
Membership will entitle you to receive and contribute to our two
international newsletters one from New Zealand and one from Brazil. This
does not sound by much but you have to start somewhere! This allows us to
share ideas and provided a medium for expressing thoughts feeling poetry
drawings etc with other young theosophists around the world.
Malcolm Idoine
PS. Could you please display this at you lodge or include the address
details in you local newsletter.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 22:25:05 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Beginner's list
Alan:
>Although I went on to study mainly Kabala I have encouraged all
>students over the years to begin where I began - with basic
>theosophy. If you have that you have the basis for all the
>esoteric ideas and teachings all the new age material and all
>the writings of Eldon :-
Oops. I guess I need more practice writing about basic Theosophy
if I'm seen on the other end of the scale!
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 22:50:03 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Coherence:
>Several have requested recommendations for a simpler statement of the
>philosophy sources which are not so daunting. Here are my recommendations:
>
>UNIVERSAL THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A wonderful "primer" for the any
>student and the book that was handed to me first 15 years ago.
>
>LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME by Wm Q. Judge. A collection of letters by
>Judge to students comprising a warm wise and practical approach to
>Theosophy.
>
>THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Wm Q. Judge. A summary of the SD in very readable
>language and an amazingly small book. Gets to the heart of the matter.
>
>ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A great
>companion to the Ocean
There is a copy of a computerized version of "The Ocean of Theosophy"
and "Universal Theosophy" on theosophy.org. The first is in WordPerfect 5.1
format. I set it up and proof-read it. The second is in ascii format.
These two were scanned by someone in Canada. It's been a few years since
I got the original scanned text and can't seem to find the piece of paper
where I wrote down the name of the guy that scanned them or I'd give
his name and email address.
They also have a version of "Esoteric Buddhism" and "The Key to Theosophy"
also both in WordPerfect 5.1 format. I understand that they will be
reformatting the materials into HTML format. These two I set up.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 23:13:16 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Coherence:
>Theosophy exists independent of the T.S. or any other body and most
>fail to realize this.
This is an important point. It's easy to lose sight of this as one moves
into a leadership role in theosophical groups. Our intent is to
disseminate the Philosophy. Theosophical groups are better than nothing
but could be improved. Perhaps with the diversity of theosophical views
and international participation we could on theos-l come up with some
useful original ideas about where to go in the future.
>It is the mutual sympathy of thought existing among Theosophists which
>binds them together. When studying in ernest help is never far away.
I agree but would put it differently. Despite the sometimes differing
ideas and thoughts it is the mutual dedication to the Bodhisattva ideal
-- harmless and the life of compassion -- that binds Theosophists and
those of all the approaches to the spiritual together. The study is one
aspect of the Path. When expressing love wisdom and compassion in the
world help is never far away in obtaining the ideas words strength
and external circumstances to live the life.
>And if we each acted according to the spirit and philosophy of the
>teachings more would be drawn to and stay with Theosophy being the
>most undiluted statement of the Ancient Wisdom
And if we act with innocent pure unstained intent with pure
motivation with selfless love and impersonality we will bring the
fruits of the spiritual to the world. We can bring ourselves and others
to the Path where we learn directly from the Gupta Vidya the Wisdom
Tradition. This blazing fire of Wisdom uses the public exoteric
materials found in the theosophical textbooks and other great writings
of the world as its tinder. Our intent with this tinder is not so much
to build a wooden box as it is to provide the material to consume that
allows us to create a blazing light that brightens the world about us!
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 23:33:31 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
Jerry S:
> [writing to Bee]
>I used to wonder why after describing so many
>gods and goddesses in the literature theosophists were simply
>ignoring them. Finally I realized the reason is that gods and
>goddesses are not appealing to the intellect. The polytheism
>of theosophy is simply another intellectual doctrinal note in a
>long list of others. In magical schools and in religions we
>converse with these deities via either prayer or ritual. In
>theosophy we pretty much ignore them.
This is because Theosophy is presented in theosophical groups as
an intellectual study. There is no spiritual practice as part of
the package. We don't have meditation on deities taught because
that is a specific practice. We just learn about the inner workings
of the world but aren't given specific methods of training to
undertake.
>> [Bee]
>>There are lots of people who do not see knowledge as an intellectual study
>>to be their way of spiritual growth.
>I see this [study] as building the scaffolding so to speak to keep
>the mind on some kind of sanity track. The human mind requires a
>structure or pattern of some kind in order to make sense of one's
>experiences. ...
This structure is an important part of the personality. It can be based
upon a broad-based appreciation of the deep side of life or it can be
consumed with shopping coupon-clipping and Monday-night sports on TV.
The structure is not the direct experience of knowledge or understanding
but rather the "memory" of such neatly organized and stored away for
future reference. That "memory" is like a filter which both explains and
limits incoming ideas. It's like an OCR program making sense of the dots
on a scanned image attempting to pick out the text. It looks at the
dots and pulls them together. But there's a higher faculty of mind which
allows one to look at the page at a glance and read what is on it!
>There are formal conscious and informal unconscious
>rituals that we can conduct. If anyone thinks that they never do rituals
>then they are simply done unconscious as every psychologist knows.
>Most Buddhist meditations try to employ the body speech and mind
>together. Thus these yogic meditations are really rituals.
Yes. Rituals are an important part of live. Our five-year-old daughter
has rituals that are an important part of her daily schedule. One
involves giving everyone hugs and kisses before going to bed for the
night. Another is a "run up" where when I come home from work for the
night and I first enter the door she runs up to me and gives me a hug
and I pick her up. This is an important ritual that's very important to
her.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 11 Dec 1996 23:50:48 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Nutritious Theosophy
>
> Bee to Eldon:
> >There are lots of people who do not see knowledge as an intellectual study
> >to be their way of spiritual growth.
>
> I am one of these. However I do love to read and study.
> I see this as building the scaffolding so to speak to keep the mind
> on some kind of sanity track. The human mind requires a structure
> or pattern of some kind in order to make sense of one's experiences.
> Without such a "mind map" or intellectual background it is easy to
> go off the deep end and loose one's perspective completely. The
> thought "Am I crazy?" must be answered in some way. However
> it is important to remember that this scaffolding i.e. world view is
> always subject to change.
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy International
I say to students of Kabala: "When you have built your temple
you lay the tools aside. Don't throw them away though as
better ones will come along and you will need to maintain the
building on a regular basis." Or words to that effect. Some
folk seem to want to keep playing with the tools so much they
hardly build anything let alone a temple.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 01:27:04 GMT
From: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz malcolm idoine
Subject: Re: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
> I prefer to think of it in terms of ideas which are then clothed
>in thoughts which are then clothed in words. because of all of the
>clothing disguises we often hear the words but miss the ideas
>behind them.
You have made a finer distinction here between ideas thoughts and words
which I have not experience of or not noticed!. I like you image of
clothing disgiuses I guess I had thought of it as a process of reduction
as sort of orthogonal projection from a higher demension to a lower
excluse my mathmatical model but its the only one I have where
information is lost not gained and there are an infinite number of
possible projections depending on you view point plane of reference.
Ugh! Can any one with a mathmatical mind translate that into something more
generally comprehesible?
>
>>Anyway I have used this as a technique of meditation:- to try and stay in
>>that space where thoughts are thoughts but before they become words. I
>>found it a very effective way to 'quiet the mind' and gain insites into the
>>mind's working.
>
> Here you will find images. Words are rolled up into
>thoughts which are rolled up into ideas which are expressed on
>this level as pure images.
>
Lovely. Good to see in from the other way round. Again I had always seen in
analytically ie: we have to tear ideas apart to put then into words.
Malcolm
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 01:44:36 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: JHE and Bailey
At 040300 AM 12/12/95 -0500 you wrote:
>
>Bee Brown writes:
>
>>JHE
>>I have no problem with that. But those who claim to understand
>>the SD because they have read what AAB CWL AB ect. said about
>>the SD but find the SD itself too difficult to read--then I
>>think they have a problem.
>>
>
>BB
>I agree with that but the average person that I was talking about
>isn't likely to get into involved discussions on the SD anyway.
>They are mostly concerned with their own spiritual growth and
>trying to get enough information to understand what is being
>talked about in general in their lodge.
>
>JHE
> And "what is being talked about in general in their lodge"
>depends upon what the material the members are attracted to in
>the first place. When I taught "theosophical doctrine" I
>always started with Blavatsky because her writings are primary
>to all of the others including Judge. If I were teaching
>Platonism I would start with Plato for the same reason. I
>realize the SD is difficult but with a little guidance I found
>that students had little or no trouble with the ~Key to
>Theosophy.~
>
>BB
>If they are 'mentally lazy' then they won't be interested in
>debating the finer points of theosophy. As Liesel said people
>learn quickest if they are enthusiastic about what they are
>reading and if that is A B then I would rather they did that than
>say 'no no' and give them SD.
>
>JHE
> I hope Liesel doesn't faint if I say that I agree with her
>100% :-. However much of the "enthusiasm" is generated by the
>person who is presenting the material i.e. the class leader. If
>the group wants to study AB then by all means study AB.
>However this is where our perceptions may differ. I don't view
>"Theosophy" as a seamless fabric of teachings running from one
>writer to another. I see Theosophical teachings changing from
>decade to decade sometimes because of fuller explanations
>becoming available; sometimes because of more confused
>explanations becoming more available; sometime for still other
>reasons. But I view theosophical teachings in their historical
>context. Therefore when I read HPB then I'm reading what HPB
>was writing during such and such a period in her life under such
>and such circumstances. When I read CWL then I'm reading what
>CWL was writing during such and such a period under such and
>such circumstances....
>
>BB
>I raved on about de Purucker and how much easier he was to
>understand to one of our members who I knew was upset at not
>understanding SD and she took his book out. Two weeks later it
>was returned and nothing has been said since. As it was one
>of his larger books it could not have been read in two weeks.
>
>JHE
> Perhaps de Purucker was too difficult also. Or perhaps he
>didn't like Purucker's sermonesque style. That is one the of
>great things about the theosophical writings we have such a
>variety of approaches and styles. Personally I found that I
>have to read some chapters of ~Fundamentals of the Esoteric
>Philosophy~ three or four times before I felt that I had a
>mastery of the points he was making. In my thirty years
>experience of teaching theosophy I found that only a small
>minority of students are willing to go though that much trouble.
>
>BB
>If people want to discuss and they say their source is other than
>SD then of course it is debatable how much store to put on their
>ideas but even reading SD does not preclude misunderstanding what
>HPB meant by what she wrote.
>
>JHE
> Amen. I remember a member with whom I used to correspond
>proposing to the Lodge that they study the SD. The President at
>first resisted then finally consented to share his personal
>conversations with M and KH on the SD rather then going through
>the trouble of reading it.
>
>BB
>So it seems to boil down to each persons interpretation of what
>they have read what ever that may be. On this list debate goes
>on between persons who are familiar with the same books yet see
>things differently. That is good for the rest of us as we then
>have to think about it and decide how we each understand it. This
>is discrimination at work.
>
>JHE
> Right.
>
>JHE
>> ~Man Whence How and Whither~ was published in 1913. Read
>> through as early an edition as you can find and I think you
>>will discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy
>>already outlined.
>
>
>MK Ramadoss
>It is my recollection that some of the material was serialized in
>Adyar Theosophist before they were put in a book form and
>published. May be this source should also be checked.
>
>JHE
> Are you thinking of "Rents in the Veil of Time"?
>
MKRamadoss
Yes. I also think some material could have been published under some
other titles especially around 1909 ?.
>> JHE
>> Remember Krishnamurti's "Truth is a pathless land" speech that
>>he gave in 1930? That was protest against the "spiritual
>>authority" held by the TS at the time. Van der Leeuw was
>>alluding to this
>
>MKR
>Before he died Krishnaji held a private discussion session in
>which he was questioned and discussed the issue of Spritual
>Hierachy and the TS and at some time in the future I hope to
>see it published. I do not know if Krishnaji had indicated his
>personal preference on publishing the discussion. I believe that
>he would never have discussed this issue unless he felt that it
>is something on which he has something to say. Let us wait for
>its publication. I hope it is not something shocking for some
>Theosophists.
>
>JHE
> It seems that K had a lot of things to say that might shock
>Theosophists. But no one seems to publish them. KFA has stayed
>with K's public talks after 1930 but not his more private
>remarks. Too bad--the off cut are almost always more
>interesting.
>
MKR
The private discussion I refer to above it looks to me as somewhat
formal and I believe it was fully recorded. Hence one of these days we may
see it published; in what form I do not know. But I am very interested in
his comments and it may provide another viewpoint altogether.
>Jim Meier writes:
>That really wasn't my point however -- whether or not the AAB
>writings are "based" in ES material doesn't seem especially
>significant. Both Alice and Foster Bailey were TSA members
>after all. What does seem significant to me is the validity or
>lack thereof of the ideas presented.
>
>JHE
> Because I approach occult teachings from a historical
>context the succession of ideas from one source to another is
>very relevant to me and is very germane to the question of
>"validity." I understand AAB and DK's concept about intuitively
>grasping the genuiness of teachings. I do that too but my
>"intuitive perceptions" lead me down relatively untraveled paths
>sometimes because my background is quite different from most
>people.
>
>JHE
>>[re: Man Whence How and Whither] ... and I think you will
>>discover all of the main characters in Bailey's hierarchy
>>already outlined.
>
>JM
>Fair enough and thanks for the reference. But this doesn't
>address the question of rightness does it? I was never clear in
>your earlier discussions with Arvin on your position with respect
>to AAB "neo-theooosophy" Saraydarian etc. excepting CWL.
>
>JHE
> My position was one of an investigator. I was a person
>knowledgeable about HPB but less so about AAB. Arvind was
>knowledgeable about AAB but less so about HPB. So I proposed a
>dialogue and comparison of ideas for our mutual education. As
>for "neo-theosophy" I perceive it as a system distinct from pre
>1895 theosophy. I don't think Saradarian really entered the
>discussions. He used to drop in and out of SD classes I used to
>hold and I used to invite him to do public talks at the LA
>Branch twice a year. Otherwise I didn't have much contact with
>him. He lives in Arizona now.
>
>>JM
>>>Can you explain *why* ES members are "warned" about Bailey?
>>
>>JHE
>>I wish I could. Reasons are not given that I know of. My guess
>>is that the Arcane school is regarded as a rival organization.
>
>JM
>I wish someone could. : I suspect you're right about the
>perceived "rivaly." Most likely there's also a bit of
>resentment on the part of the TS regarding the Tibetan's
>assertion that the TS had drifted from its original intention to
>something of a personality cult ~1930 and a training ground for
>probationary disciples. That seems like the sort of thing that
>could ruffle feathers.
>
>JHE
> I'm sure that is a factor.
>
>JM
>RE: Eldon's point on discussing ES material as recounted:
>that's a good point. The Bailey texts are published materials
>however so it may be possible to look for a "fit" within
>theosophy. On the other hand I can remember some particularly
>pointed discussions on here regarding CWLeadbeater and he was
>accepted within Theosophy sort of anyway by most at least for
>a time. Would this be an improper forum for the discussion?
>
>JHE
> I think discussion on Bailey have raised objection in the
>past with participants arguing that the Arcane school has its
>own discussion group. I think the objections were fair enough.
>On the other hand comparative discussions of Theosophy and ....
>should be fair game.
>
>JHE
>>....But before we got into the examination of the ideas Arvind
>>admitted that his real agenda was to win disciples for AAB not
>>to examine the writings..
>
>JM
>>Ah I remember that now. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate
>>to say Arvin was looking "to win disciples for AAB" but I think
>>I get your point.
>
>JHE
> I pretty sure that he used the word "disciples."
>
>>JM
>>PS: I would post Bailey's seven "new ideas" for the benefit of
>>those unfamiliar with the writings of Alice A. Bailey and the
>>Tibetan Djwhal Khul but I'm afraid of being expelled from
>>cyberspace. :
>>
>>JHE
>>I would be very interested in those ideas and would defend VERY
>
>>LOUDLY your right to post them.
>
>JM
>I did not expect anyone would question "the right" to post re:
>AAB but I'm still wondering if this would be an improper forum.
>There is not a lot of Saraydarian material posted on here for
>example though he is generally regarded as a theosophical
>writer.
>
>JHE
> Probably some will object if you used this net as a forum
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>for Arcane School or Aquarian Foundation Material and I think
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>rightly so. But in this case you would be posting something in
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>context to a "theosophical discussion" so I don't see way
>anyone would object. In fact several of us have already asked
>you to post these ideas.
>
MKR
JHE has hit the very important point. I have seen many instances in
which people have tried to use the TS Lodges and Branches as recruiting
ground for their particular group or organization. I have always been on the
look out when such attempts are made and have alerted the audience to be
aware of this. So surely if anyone is trying to use this net as a recruiting
ground then there is going to be some very vehement objections.
>JM
>I was introduced to the AAB texts by friends in the Austin
>chapter of the TS in my college days '70s. The Austin group
>was highly polarized along generational lines and the younger
>set also accepted the Bailey texts. The Austin group doesn't
>appear on the chapter list anymore but I do not know when or why
>they faded. In one sense I suppose the Bailey influence has
>been devisive since the TSA split in the early '20s.
MKR
I was familiar with the Austin group. There was an enthusiastic group of
young people and was hoping that the group will expand. I believe there was
fire in which the building and all the library was burnt down and that ended
the lodge.
>
>JHE
> Yes. There seems to be quite a story here that needs to be
>put together and told.
>
>Jerry HE
>International Theosophist
>------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> ||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
>CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
>|------------------------------------------
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 01:48:21 GMT
From: malcolmi@iconz.co.nz malcolm idoine
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>Eldon:
>What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
>gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
>individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
>without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
>eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
>
Obviously there are hugh changes taking place on the planet right now with
the change in consciouness spearheaded by the feminist and gay liberation
movements. This changes are not without probems as the great pains of the
past power based patriarchies are being worked through and collective karma
is released.
Malcolm
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 01:57:19 GMT
From: mstosmar@embratel.net.br Osmar de Carvalho
Subject: Re: WTYF
To Malcolm:
>>We in New Zealand are backing this organisation in order to foster youth
>membership of the theosophical society and its objectives around the world
>as it is obvious that the TS has and aging membership and it is often very
>difficult for younger new members to feel a sense of belonging.
Well... well... This may sound tragic or comic but I study
Theosophy
since I was seventeen now I'm in the return of Saturn as a Lodge president
and I never ever received one sole communication from WYTF although
I had met many times the "retired" president from this "world" organization
Arnaldo Sison his wife Marina sending regular mails from my branch to theirs.
They do know my branch has a good number of young members because
they saw them at theosophical meetings.
I'm glad the organization is working people of many countries do
contribute
to the newsletter but at the same time shoked by the "fact" that
the WYTF
don't communicate with the Lodges of the country where its headquarters
is located. It is a very strange situation to see news about this from
New Zealand
thousands of miles away when people envolved live at the same country do
speak the same language as in the case of Brazil.
>I said in a previous post that I would create and e-version of the WTYF
>membership form however it looks a little complicated. If you are
>interested in joining please e-mail to me malcolmi@iconz.co.nz or write to
>me Malcolm Idoine 26 Arthur St Ponsonby Auckland New Zealand and I
>will post you a membership form a copy of the constitution and a leaflet
>about the organisation. Membership is free but you may like to make a
>contribution towards postage as this is currently being funded by the
>Brazilian and New Zealand sections.
I would like so much to take part of WYTF and I request you to inform
the new president that he could revise the politic of the past president
communicating with the Brazilian members also. My Lodge is one example.
There are many members in his twenties and they are the public whose
stimulus of WYTF would bring many benefits. One "portuguese" issue of
the newsletter would be great to start. He can send us the english version
also because many of our members do read in english.
OM SHANTI!
Osmar
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 02:35:14 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Adyar Rules 02
Herewith rules 1-10 inclusive of the Adyar TS incorporated in
1905 being the second upload from the beginning rules 3345
already separately uploaded:
--------------------------------
RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THE ASSOCIATION NAMED
'THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY' ADYAR MADRAS
1. General Council
The General Council shall be the Governing Body of The Theosophi-
cal Society. All members of the General Council shall at all
times be Fellows of the Society and not fewer than seven members
of this Council shall be resident in India.
2. Members of the General Council
a The President the Vice-President the Treasurer the
Secretary and the General Secretaries of the component National
Societies otherwise called Sections shall ex-officio be members
of the General Council. The terms of those members of the General
Council who hold office ex-officio shall expire with the vacation
of their qualifying office.
b The General Council shall include not fewer than 05 and not
more than 12 Additional Members among whom all past Presidents
while in good standing shall automatically have place. Other
members shall on the nomination of the President be elected for
a term of three years by vote or the General Council at its
Annual Meeting their names having been sent to the Members of
the General Council at least three months before the Annual
Meeting.
c Members retiring shall be eligible for re-election. d The
Secretary shall be the Secretary of the General Council.
3. Removal of General Council members and officers
It shall be competent for the General Council to remove any of
its members or any officer of the Society excepting the
President of the Theosophical Society and excepting the General
Secretaries of National Societies by a three-fourths majority
or its whole number of members at a special meeting called for
the purpose of which at least three months' notice shall have
been given the quorum consisting however of not fewer than
five members.
4. Meetings of the General Council
a The General Council shall ordinarily meet once a year at the
time of the Annual Meeting or Convention of the Society; but a
special meeting may be called at any time by the President and
a meeting shall be called at any time by him or if not by him
by the Secretary on the written requisition of not less than
one-fourth of the total number of members; but of such special
meetings not less than three months' notice shall be given and
the notice shall contain a statement of the special business to
be laid before the meeting.
b Whenever at any time or place a Convention or other
function of the Society shall bring together a number of members
of the General Council the President at his discretion may call
such members to a meeting for the purpose of study and discussion
of any matters concerning the Society that he considers appropri-
ate to lay before them. The meeting may then forward to the
President its report on such matters and may make recommendations
thereon. Such meetings shall be of a consultative nature without
administrative or legislative authority or may be of a legisla-
tive nature upon the decision of the General Council taken at
least one year in advance.
In the event the President does not himself attend such a meeting
he may appoint the Vice-President or some other member of the
General Council to preside in his stead.
The President or his Deputy shall give not less than thirty days'
notice of such meeting to all members of the General Council who
may be expected to be present at the function that provides
occasion for the meeting but all members of the Council shall
have the right to attend.
5. Resolutions a On the request of any member of the General
Council any resolution or other item of business proposed by such
member shall be placed on the Agenda and circulated with brief
supporting statements for consideration at the next meeting of
the General Council provided that not less than three months'
notice of such resolution or item of business shall be given to
the Secretary.
b At all meetings of the General Council members thereof may
vote in person or in writing or by proxy duly given to another
member of the General Council for the particular meeting
concerned. Except as aforesaid no member shall exercise more than
one vote. No member shall be allowed to exercise more than 05
proxy votes.
Note: Meetings include adjourned meetings.
6. Quorum
The quorum of an ordinary as well as of a special meeting of the
General Council shall be five members. If there be no quorum the
meeting may be adjourned sine die or the Chairman of the meeting
may adjourn it to another date of which three months' further
notice shall be given when the business of the meeting shall be
disposed of irrespective of whether there is a quorum present
or not.
7. Who Shall Preside
The President or in his absence the Vice-President of the
Society shall preside at all meetings of The Theosophical Society
or of the General Council and shall have a casting vote in the
case of an equal division or the members voting on any question
before the meeting.
8. President
In the absence of the President and the Vice-President the
meeting shall elect a chairman from among the members present at
the meeting and he shall have a casting vote in the case of a
tie.
9. President's term of office
The term of office for the President shall be seven years from
the date of assuming office.
10. Election of President
The procedure for election to the office of President shall be
as follows:
a Seven months before the expiration of a President's term of
office or within three days or the office becoming vacant the
Executive Committee shall appoint a special Committee consisting
of three members of The Theosophical Society in good standing
including the Secretary but excluding any candidate for the
office of President to carry out the election procedure as
hereinunder detailed. This Committee shall be known as the
Election Committee and shall be answerable only to the Executive
Committee. It shall be automatically dissolved on the declaration
of the voting result.
b Immediately on its appointment the Election Committee shall
instruct the Secretary to send out to the members of the General
Council a written call for nominations for the office of
President. The call for nominations shall be sent by airmail or
other expeditious means if airmail be unavailable followed one
week later by a second duplicate call.
c Any member of the Society in good standing having been a
member for at least ten consecutive years immediately preceding
his nomination may be nominated. Each member of the General
Council who is a General Secretary shall be entitled to make
three nominations and shall consult his Governing Body before
making nominations. The President shall be entitled to make three
nominations. The Vice-President Secretary Treasurer and each
Additional Member of the General Council shall be entitled to
make one nomination. The nominator shall be responsible for
ensuring that his nominations reaches the Secretary within ten
weeks of the date of the call for nomina- tion. The nominee shall
be responsible for notifying the Secretary within the above-
mentioned period of his acceptance of nomination. One written
consent shall suffice for all nominations for that nominee.
d At the expiration of ten weeks the Election Committee shall
place all the nominations received together with the relevant
papers before the Executive Committee at a meeting especially
convened for the purpose. At such meeting the Executive Committee
shall examine the nominations. The three nominees having the
highest number of nominations shall alone be qualified to be on
the voting list but if two or more nominees qualify for the
last place on the voting list they shall both or all be
included in the list. No nominee shall be included in the voting
list unless supported by at least twelve nominations. The names
of the nominees who thus qualify for inclusion shall be listed
in alphabetical order. This list as finalized by the Executive
Committee shall be the voting list and shall not be subject to
challenge. However in the event of a nominee dying or being so
seriously incapacitated as to be unable to carry out the
Presidential duties if elected between the date of the call for
nominations and the despatch of the voting list the nomination
procedure shall be repeated commencing within seven days from
the notification of the fact to the Secretary.
e The Secretary shall then immediately communicate in writing
by airmail or other expeditious means followed one week later
by a second and duplicate communication the voting list together
with biographical data of the candidates in accordance with
Appendix A to these Rules to the General Secretaries Regional
Secretaries Organizing Secretaries and Presidential Representa-
tives and to the Lodges Branches and Fellows-at-large attached
to Headquarters. Each General Secretary Regional Secretary
Organizing Secretary and Presidential Representative shall make
known the names of the candidates and their biographical data to
the members in his area and take the votes in accordance with the
instructions in Appendix B to these Rules of the individual
members on the rolls of his National Society or area or adminis-
tration who have been members in good standing for two full years
as on the date of the call for nominations and shall communicate
the results to the Secretary in accordance with the instructions
given in Appendix B to these Rules.
The Election Committee shall take the votes in accordance with
the instructions given in Appendix B of these Rules of the
members of the Lodges Branches and Fellows-at-large attached
to Headquarters who have been members in good standing for two
full years as on the date of the call for nominations. The voting
results must reach the Secretary within fifteen weeks of the date
of issue of the voting list by him.
If only one name remains on the voting list the vote shall be
taken on a 'For' or 'Against' ballot.
f At the expiration of fifteen weeks from the date of issue of
the voting list by the Secretary the voting results shall be
totalled by the Election Committee and placed before the
Executive Committee.
Within three days of the closing date of voting the candidate
who has received the largest number of votes shall be declared
elected President and shall assume office not later than thirty
days thereafter. In the event of a tie or of the rejection or
a single candidate in a ' For' or 'Against ' ballot or of a
candidate on the voting list dying or being so seriously in-
capacitated as to be unable to carry out the Presidential duties
if elected after the despatch of the voting list and before the
final totalling of votes the nomination and election procedure
shall be repeated commencing within seven days from the
notification of the fact to the Secretary and the President in
office or the Vice-President if he is temporarily filling such
office shall continue therein until a new President assumes
office.
Note. A member is in good standing if his dues have been paid for
the last official year to his Section Regional Association or
Presidential Agency or in the case of Lodges Branches attached
direct to Adyar and Fellows-at-large to the Secretary or
Treasurer concerned.
-----------------------------------------------------
AB
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 02:47:55 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
> When it comes to accomplishing one's daily work there is no technique of
> Magick a period b which has not somewhere along the line been tried by
> Jerry Schueler c which can turn it into a Picnick d which can produce
> more success than choosing exactly the right occupation for oneself to begin
> with.
>
> Richard Ihle
... b?
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 02:54:40 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
>Bee to Eldon:
>> I don't really expect to see devotional people in Theosophy as it
>>appeals to the intellect and promotes the wisdom as knowledge to the
>>intellect and then for intellectual people the devotion comes later. We all
>>start a various levels and types of spiritual pursuits.
>
> True. I used to wonder why after describing so many
>gods and goddesses in the literature theosophists were simply
>ignoring them. Finally I realized the reason is that gods and
>goddesses are not appealing to the intellect. The polytheism
>of theosophy is simply another intellectual doctrinal note in a
>long list of others. In magical schools and in religions we
>converse with these deities via either prayer or ritual. In
>theosophy we pretty much ignore them.
Do you think the Masters represent the intellectual version of god/desses?
Perhaps it is the devotional persons who like Leadbeater and A B as there is
more ritual in their writings and they talk more about how to approach the
unseen worlds and use invocations etc. Conversing with deities in any shape
or form seems scary to theosophists. Somehow that seems to have been lumped
in under 'new age' and to be treated with caution. There is a real
difference in thinking between the intellectual and the devotional and I
sometimes wonder if the twain can meet sensibly. One day a jointing of the
two will no doubt occur so in the mean time tolerance is sorely needed.
>
>Bee to Eldon:
>>There are lots of people who do not see knowledge as an intellectual study
>>to be their way of spiritual growth.
>
> I am one of these. However I do love to read and study.
>I see this as building the scaffolding so to speak to keep the mind
>on some kind of sanity track. The human mind requires a structure
>or pattern of some kind in order to make sense of one's experiences.
>Without such a "mind map" or intellectual background it is easy to
>go off the deep end and loose one's perspective completely. The
>thought "Am I crazy?" must be answered in some way. However
>it is important to remember that this scaffolding i.e. world view is
>always subject to change.
>
>From an intellectual's point of view much of the 'new age' is without
perspective as the discussions come straight from the emotions and lack
clarity of thought. I used to enjoy the new age stuff emotions and all
until the novelty wore off and now I need more serious stuff to think about
and I cannot get it together with it anymore. Rather a shame because they
are all caring people and share all their experiences and dreams as if it
was the most important thing there ever was. To them it is and I respect
their right to do it their way but I find it is no longer satisfying to myself.
>Bee to Eldon:
>>Rituals do a lot for devotional people as they relate to spirit in that way.
>>Rituals also get imbued with certain vibrations that these people can use in
>>their meditations and can be felt by sensitive people. Sometimes rituals are
>>what opens them to the spiritual life and then they have to discover which
>>way is the best for them to follow.
>
> There are formal conscious and informal unconscious
>rituals that we can conduct. If anyone thinks that they never do rituals
>then they are simply done unconscious as every psychologist knows.
>Most Buddhist meditations try to employ the body speech and mind
>together. Thus these yogic meditations are really rituals.
I love the concept of the Masters and so I guess in my own way I have
organised a ritual of sorts out of the theosophical wisdom. I like to think
of them as humanity's guardian angels and aspiring to one day being a chela
seems a neat way to go.
>
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy International
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 03:09:40 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>
>>Eldon:
>>What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
>>gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
>>individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
>>without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
>>eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
>>
>
>Obviously there are hugh changes taking place on the planet right now with
>the change in consciouness spearheaded by the feminist and gay liberation
>movements. This changes are not without probems as the great pains of the
>past power based patriarchies are being worked through and collective karma
>is released.
>
>Malcolm
>
Hi Malcolm
Greeting from Wanganui.
The changes in physical and non-physical reality is taken very seriously on
the Lightwork-l discussion list. There are some interesting theories being
talked about. Some of it I can't go with but still I read them to see what
is happening in the big world out there. >
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 04:24:41 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
On 12 199512 Eldon B. Tucker wrote:
> Coherence:
>
> >Several have requested recommendations for a simpler statement of the
> >philosophy sources which are not so daunting. Here are my recommendations:
> >
> >UNIVERSAL THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A wonderful "primer" for the any
> >student and the book that was handed to me first 15 years ago.
> >
> >LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME by Wm Q. Judge. A collection of letters by
> >Judge to students comprising a warm wise and practical approach to
> >Theosophy.
> >
> >THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Wm Q. Judge. A summary of the SD in very readable
> >language and an amazingly small book. Gets to the heart of the matter.
> >
> >ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A great
> >companion to the Ocean
>
> There is a copy of a computerized version of "The Ocean of Theosophy"
> and "Universal Theosophy" on theosophy.org. The first is in WordPerfect 5.1
> format. I set it up and proof-read it. The second is in ascii format.
> These two were scanned by someone in Canada. It's been a few years since
> I got the original scanned text and can't seem to find the piece of paper
> where I wrote down the name of the guy that scanned them or I'd give
> his name and email address.
>
> They also have a version of "Esoteric Buddhism" and "The Key to Theosophy"
> also both in WordPerfect 5.1 format. I understand that they will be
> reformatting the materials into HTML format. These two I set up.
>
> -- Eldon
>
Eldon:
Glad to know the electronic version of classics in Theosophy. If anyone
else knows about what else is available in electronic media it could be
the start of a project to put all of them on a CD Rom. The prices of
recordable CD Rom have come down and soon we all can have a couple of CD
Roms with all the published Theosophy works.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 04:48:43 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Newbies
>
> I truly believe
> Internet and the international access to theos-l is the next quantum leap
> and we Theosophists should make full use of it no matter what the organized
> entities/TS Organizations think about it or how they have reacted to it. I
> am very objective about this whole thing. How many times have you seen any
> of the elected/appointed officials at the national or regional level have
> ever posted any messages here. It is either due to illiteracy on their part
> or their indifference or what other reason they only know. As I pointed out
> in a msg some time back let us all put ourself in the seat of HPB and
> imagine how she would have used Internet as a means of attracting the
> attention of the world to the Theosophical ideas. It may give us some
> creative ideas.
I expect she would have signed up for THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL
and used a similar sig to mine but probably on a higher plane :-
How about you? :-
> ...doss
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 04:50:26 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: TSA Membership Trends
At one point earlier in the year I asked John Algeo if it
would be ok to give out selected TSA membership statistics.
He said it would be ok if I were prudent and did not reveal
any particular member's information.
We've discussed trends in TS organizations to appealing
to different age groups. Following is the trend in TSA
membership over the last eight years. The statistics are
based upon people joining the TSA for which valid
birthdates exist in the database.
-- Eldon
----
Trends in TSA Appeal to Different Age Groups 1987 - 1995
TOTAL <20 20-29 30-39 40-49 50-59 60+
OCT87 - SEP88 887 2% 9% 29% 30% 17% 13%
OCT88 - SEP89 1034 1% 13% 31% 29% 13% 13%
OCT89 - SEP90 804 2% 12% 26% 32% 16% 12%
OCT90 - SEP91 695 1% 12% 27% 33% 13% 13%
OCT91 - SEP92 721 1% 12% 27% 33% 17% 10%
OCT92 - SEP93 654 1% 10% 24% 35% 19% 11%
OCT93 - SEP94 641 2% 8% 22% 35% 20% 14%
OCT94 - SEP95 597 1% 9% 20% 33% 19% 16%
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 04:57:04 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Beginner's list
My *very first* book on Theosophy was Jinarajadasa's ~First
Principles of Theosophy~ which was hard going and took me two
weeks to read - but I got just about all the basics from a
one-volume clearly printed volume.
Although I went on to study mainly Kabala I have encouraged all
students over the years to begin where I began - with basic
theosophy. If you have that you have the basis for all the
esoteric ideas and teachings all the new age material and all
the writings of Eldon :-
Mind you it is definitely not an easy book for someone who
wants a "quick fix." I wish Adyar would reissue it.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 05:03:22 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
> [Liesel:]
>
> >In the same vein I don't approve of the By-laws revision that says
> >newcomers have to wait for 02 years to be able to vote. What for?
>
> Yeah what for? If I am correct this 2-year wait is necessary as well for
> joining the E.S. It's like you have to prove yourself a good theosophist
> or: member first. Isn't it possible that even young people already
> have their feet planted firmly on the Path perhaps more than age-long
> members? IMHO it's a person's own responsibility to make the best of it
> to follow one's Dharma!
>
> /* Peter */
> Member Theosophy International
Absolutely - some 17-year old on the net might be an old soul
returning to *tell* us something not to ask for it .....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 05:06:49 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: TI
Going up ....
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
thus:
1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
orientation creed class or color.
2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
individual ability and inclination.
3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
human potential and abilities.
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
by any member. ***
There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
projects or even individuals for particular and specified
purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
activity is an entirely personal matter.
The following internet folk have so far signed up:
Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
Murray Stentiford; Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker .......
*** It has been suggested that we add:
We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
others.
I feel sure those above-named agree so please press your reply
button/key and add "*** YES" to this message. Don't bother to
snip just reply. Many thanks. Unanimity would be real nice .....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 05:25:06 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Father/Mother God
> Father-Mother-God! In Thy mercy in Thy love be Thou the
> guide just now as I seek in humility and in earnestness to
> present that which may give my fellow man [uh-oh] a better and
> more perfect insight into the love which was manifested by
> Jesus my Lord and my God. Help Thou O God my every effort.
> 849-76
Would you like to discuss this God person? I am up to my
armpits in heretical and gender-inclusive theology ......
Alan :-
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 06:29:22 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Eldon
I totally agree with what you wrote here and don't suppose it is unusual to
think this way. It is just a shame to perpetuate an old concept by using a
certain pronoun. Language is powerful. That was my main point.
Ann
>Alan:
>
>> [writing to Ann]:
>
>>Of course God does not and cannot have a sexual identity yet
>>the language which supposes this persists and those like
>>myself who protest are either ignored or insulted though not
>>insulted on theos-l.
>
>According to our theosophical textbooks the separation into
>sexes happened in an earlier race and will one day in the
>distant future end. It is a temporary experience. We as
>human Monads are not male or female but simply human.
>
>The being whose existence brings about our world a being which
>might be called "God" is sexless. Sexual differences are like
>other patterns of personality; they are psycho-physical. They
>are among those specific attributes taken on in a particular
>lifetime.
>
>We will never directly know the "God" whose life energies create
>our world. That being bears a relationship to us akin to the
>relationship that we bear to our lifeatoms or Skandhas. What
>we relate to and know are gods and goddesses. These are the
>Dhyani-Chohans the highest beings in our system. They establish
>the laws of nature and spiritual superstructure of the world.
>
>While male and female are polarizations of our physical body
>and temporary constructs masculine and feminine are universal
>qualities that things can take on. We can have a male or
>female deity. They are male or female not because of physical
>form but because of representing a masculine or feminine quality.
>Shiva for instance would be male and Shakti female.
>
>What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
>gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
>individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
>without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
>eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
>
>-- Eldon
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 08:26:54 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re J00 H-E Bylaws & Bailey
>Liesel:
>>Dear Jim
>>I wish you would put on Alice Bailey's 07 new ideas.
>>It might start a good discussion & I dare anyone to expel you from
>>cyberspace. They won't. You might get an argument. That's all.
>
>I second the request.
>
>- ann bermingham
>
I third that.
By the way I have been to have a look at the Theosophy Page on the web and
found the library postings. Printed off 34 pages of assorted goodies. Quite
a bit there from Judge. Keep it coming it will all end up in our library as
articles on display for members.>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 08:31:45 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: re re JHE and Bailey
Peter Walstra writes:
>A couple of months ago I ran into some books of Saraydarian for
>the first time he seems to have written quite a few just like
>every other well-known theosophist ;-.
>Trying to expand my Theosophy-related horizon I would be most
>pleased to learn something more about him and this Aquarian
>Educational Group. Anyone can tell me some more or refer me
>to some address in Cyberspace?
>Thanx...
JHE
He lives in Sedona Arizona now and has about 35 books to his
credit which he primarily distributes himself:
Aquarian Educational Group
P.O. Box 267
Sedona AZ 86336
602 282-2655
Depending upon how you use the word "theosophist" I'm not
sure if it is an appropriate label for Torkom Saraydarian. He is
the head of his own organization that is much more closely
related to the Arcane School pedigree than to the Theosophical
Society. On the other hand I consider AAB teachings to be
represent another school of theosophy. But the Arcane School
the Aquarian Educational Group and the Theosophical Society are
very separate organizations. In one sense I would only use the
term "theosophist" to apply to those very rare people who live a
life of pure altruism--such as perhaps Mother Theresa. In the
other hand for the word "theosophist" in context to an
organization I would only apply it to members of the
Theosophical Organizations. For instance CWL would be "a
theosophist" but AAB would not be after 1918 when she left the
TS to start her own organization. In this usage of the word I
prefer the term "student of theosophy."
I used to invite Saraydarian to speak on the Secret Doctrine
at the Los Angeles Branch. I remember not agreeing with many of
his interpretations But I never included or excluded speakers
based upon my opinion of their point of view yet they were
obviously well thought out and were based upon AAB's
interpretations of the SD.
Jerry HE
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 08:36:24 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Titillation
>BB:
>>As Liesel said people learn quickest if they
>>are enthusiastic about what they are reading and if that is A B then I would
>>rather they did that than say 'no no' and give them SD. Sadly many want
>>titilation with their knowledge so while they are going through that stage
>>they will not take on something that takes serious thought.
>
>I was intrigued by the meaning of the word titillation in regard to esoteric
>material and spiritual growth so I consulted my robot dictionary and found
this
>interesting quote. It also suggests that one would have to keep "titillating"
>the readers or they will go elsewhere. Although I read and like CWL that
>reminds me of him and his more fantastic writings.
>
>Titillation
>To excite another especially in a superficial pleasurable manner: "Once you
>decide to titillate instead of illuminate . . . you create a climate of
>expectation that requires a higher and higher level of intensity" Bill
Moyers.
>
>The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language Third Edition
>copyright C 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from
>InfoSoft International Inc. All rights reserved.
>
What a handy dictionary. I like that definition and it fits nicely to the
groups I used to go to because the novelty wore off so I guess we ran out
of titillation.
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 08:44:50 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Newbies
>At 053700 PM 12/11/95 -0500 Jerry S wrote:
>
>>suspicious. I don't expect newbies to "keep up" with some of my
>>discussions. After studying for almost 30 years I would hope that I
>>am able to talk over their heads at some point. While this is
>>probably frustrating to them I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>a member at large and except for computer networking have
>>not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
>>others.
>
> In the very early days of TS when there were very few written
>publications the members were having a difficult time getting information
>on various Theos* subjects. Reading your appreciation of theos-l and how it
>would have helped you if it were there I see an analogy. I truly believe
>Internet and the international access to theos-l is the next quantum leap
>and we Theosophists should make full use of it no matter what the organized
>entities/TS Organizations think about it or how they have reacted to it. I
>am very objective about this whole thing. How many times have you seen any
>of the elected/appointed officials at the national or regional level have
>ever posted any messages here. It is either due to illiteracy on their part
>or their indifference or what other reason they only know. As I pointed out
>in a msg some time back let us all put ourself in the seat of HPB and
>imagine how she would have used Internet as a means of attracting the
>attention of the world to the Theosophical ideas. It may give us some
>creative ideas.
>
>I must pass on that I send articles of interest to our National President
in Auckland and he tells me he enjoys reading them and if it isn't any
trouble to keep sending them. I have heard mention that they are thinking
about joining us one of these days. I have just sent a envelope full to do
with the by-law postings etc up there for his Xmas reading. I think lack of
time is one factor that has kept Internet at bay.
>
> I have always felt that JEM and any one else who took the initiative
>to put the theos-xxxx together have done all of us a great favor and our
>gratitude is due to all of them.
>
> ...doss
>
>>
>> Jerry S.
>When the list goes down from time to time I get withdrawal symptoms
because I just love this Internet and all you lovely people. I have learned
so much since joining and I appreciate your patience when I let rip.>
>>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 09:04:04 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
On 12 199512 Richtay@aol.com wrote:
> >MEMO: To Members of the Atlanta Lodge
> >From: Brant Jackson
> >Subject By-Law revisions
>
> >[Imagine if] The Board of Directors and a majority of the lodge members
> acting under the influence of several powerful
> >members vote to sell the real property for the financial benefit of the
> >individual lodge members i.e. to give each member a pro-rata share of
> >sale proceeds.
>
> While offensive to us all many of us would
> >think that the chances of it actually happening would be highly unlikely
> >if not impossible. This scenario however actually happened recently
> >with the Boston Lodge
>
> Whooaaa !! Hold your horses here fella! I was SECRETARY of the Boston Lodge
> during the fallout of the lawsuit and I am personal friends with almost all
> of the current board members. To my knowledge no individual has received a
> PENNY from the sale of the building rather a new building was bought in a
> suburb of Boston called Arlington.
>
> I did NOT support the lawsuit nor do I support the Alice Bailey studies of
> the current Arlington T.S. but it is grossly unfair even malicious to
> insinuate that these Theosophists however misguided were actually motivated
> by greed and personal gain. I can't believe this accusation is being posted
> internationally and the author of it should certainly recant and apologize
> publicly.
>
> We may not agree with many of our brother and sister Theosophists but
> neither can we get away with slander and lies about them. How unbrotherly !
>
> Disgusted
>
> Rich Taylor
>
Glad you posted the message. I do not know how many are aware of
Brant Jackson's unsigned memo was circulated by the National President of
TSA to all the Lodges and Study Centers with a cover letter in effect
endorsing Brant Jackson's letter.
In the circustances both the National President and Brant Jackson
need to apologize in public and send copies to everyone to whom the cover
letter and Jackson's letters were sent.
If on the other hand they have facts support that the tax exempt assets
were converted to private benefit they need to file a complaint with
Internal Revenue Service in public who will take action on the
individuals involved.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 09:18:54 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: TI
*** YES
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 09:18:57 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Coherence wrote:
>>Theosophy exists independent of the T.S. or any other body and most fail
to
realize this. It is the mutual sympathy of thought existing among
Theosophists which binds them together. When studying in ernest help is
never far away. And if we each acted according to the spirit and philosophy
of the teachings more would be drawn to and stay with Theosophy being the
most undiluted statement of the Ancient Wisdom<<
Good post !!
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 09:19:02 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
>MEMO: To Members of the Atlanta Lodge
>From: Brant Jackson
>Subject By-Law revisions
>[Imagine if] The Board of Directors and a majority of the lodge members
acting under the influence of several powerful
>members vote to sell the real property for the financial benefit of the
>individual lodge members i.e. to give each member a pro-rata share of
>sale proceeds.
While offensive to us all many of us would
>think that the chances of it actually happening would be highly unlikely
>if not impossible. This scenario however actually happened recently
>with the Boston Lodge
Whooaaa !! Hold your horses here fella! I was SECRETARY of the Boston Lodge
during the fallout of the lawsuit and I am personal friends with almost all
of the current board members. To my knowledge no individual has received a
PENNY from the sale of the building rather a new building was bought in a
suburb of Boston called Arlington.
I did NOT support the lawsuit nor do I support the Alice Bailey studies of
the current Arlington T.S. but it is grossly unfair even malicious to
insinuate that these Theosophists however misguided were actually motivated
by greed and personal gain. I can't believe this accusation is being posted
internationally and the author of it should certainly recant and apologize
publicly.
We may not agree with many of our brother and sister Theosophists but
neither can we get away with slander and lies about them. How unbrotherly !
Disgusted
Rich Taylor
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 10:07:11 GMT
From: Ruben Cabigting
Subject: Re: re re beginner's list
Alan
Come to think of it that was also the book that brought me to
Theosophy. It was on Nov in 1951 when I just received my commission as
Ensign in the Navy and I was visiting a friend in his office and saw the
book on his table. My friend said that there is this Navy Captain who
is lending TS books to Navy personnel. I borrowed the book and my
photographic mind then enabled me to finish reading the book that night.
The next day I saw the Captain and we immediately became good friends he
gave me an application form and I paid my membership dues and became a T.S.
member since then.
Ignoring the science part of the book to a new member or to a person
who has no idea about Theosophy most of its contents were very helpful
as an introduction to Theosophy then.
Ruben Cabigting
On 12 199512 Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:
>
> Alan writes:
>
> My *very first* book on Theosophy was Jinarajadasa's ~First
> Principles of Theosophy~ which was hard going and took me two
> weeks to read - but I got just about all the basics from a
> one-volume clearly printed volume.
>
> JHE
> Actually that was also the first book on theosophy that I
> seriously read--and it helped to peak my interest in astronomy.
> Ironically through my new interest in astronomy I came to
> realize that the science especially the astronomy is very out
> of date. What is worse CJ's teachings which are essentially
> restatements of CWL's hang on that scientific mis-information.
> I would think that most anyone with a basic scientific background
> would be put off of theosophy if they read it.
> A little over fifteen years ago a representative from TPH
> Wheaton made a business trip to our Lodge and book store. He
> mentioned that TPH London would not reprint ~First Principles~
> because of the out-of-date science. On the other hand I'm
> surprised at how many people still value that book. Used copies
> are very much in demand. It seems that TPH has a good model for
> a basic textbook on theosophy here but it needs to be completely
> rewritten.
>
> Jerry HE
> Member Theosophy International
> International Theosophist
>
> ------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> ||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
> CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
> |------------------------------------------
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 10:50:56 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: TI
AYE
Jerry HE
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 12:29:58 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Working on ballot
Have been trying to follow all points of view expressed about
by-laws here and in the AT and am coming up confused.
Questions for anyone who cares to advise:
I'm voting yes for the housekeeping changes
1-35710-14 because I haven't seen any reason to oppose them.
No on 08 for reasons stated by others.
Am not clear about 469 and 15-19. Would vote no on 09 but
after reading John Algeo's explanation that the new by-law on
rescinding membership is not as bad as the old guess it's OK.
4 makes me wonder what sort of compatibility statement is
needed and why; 06 is confusing with two lawyers giving opposite
advice 15-18 raise issues of local autonomy I'd like to see
debated more and 19 makes me want to know the current rules
about referendum petitions.
Can anyone shed more light on any of the above?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 12:45:21 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: God loves you
In a message dated 95-12-06 114134 EST you write:
>The knee-jerk orthodox Theosophical response to the
>phrase "God loves you" would be a00 Initiates do not use the
>word God as the truth about the cosmos is far too complex to
>be adequately rendered by a term fraught with anthropomorphic
>connotations; b love is a univeral law of attraction and
>repulsion and not some current directed at an individual from
>some other level of being; c the "you" which wants to be loved
>by God is the lower personality the desire nature which is
>mortal and should be transcended not mollycoddled with
>pietistic religion. To which after immersing myself in the
>Cayce material I can only respond with "God loves you anyway.
What a riot! Thank you for the comic relief sorely needed. There is no
humor so great as that which points out the obvious the humor in the
everyday events as in the style of the classic George Carlin and soon to be
famous Richard Ihle.
The problem I find with this type of approach a la Cayce Bailey is that
the anthropomorphic terminology and references to an Absolute Principle with
all too human characteristics kills self-reliance and removes responsibility
from the individual. This would occur in those who have not or could not
study a system such as Theosophy to be able to detect and interpret the
symbolism of these writers. The thinking goes: If there is a God who loves
me s/he therefore forgives me. This concept is ultimately belittling to the
individual because they are not forced to recognize the true divinity within
and its possible "development" and powers and then accept responsibility for
their actions and their ability to create and bring about change. People
tend to either rail against the injustice of life or passively chalk
difficulties and "the unknown" up to the will of God. It's God's way.
So you may find a little personal and emotional solace from these writings
but remember that you have the benefit of an understanding of Theosophy to
provide light on the import of the more emotional words of Cayce. For me I
much prefer a little more of the intellectual approach but only to provide
the why. Rather than say "intellectual" I think "rational" would be better
because we truly have the reasons and the ability to reason through these
ideas. "Intellectual" is cold "rational" is productive creative and leads
to conclusion action and a reasoned faith as opposed to a blind faith..
Thank you for the wonderful observation on Theosophists and thank god its
true.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 13:11:47 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: JHE and Bailey
>My position was one of an investigator. I was a person
>knowledgeable about HPB but less so about AAB. Arvind was
>knowledgeable about AAB but less so about HPB. So I proposed a
>dialogue and comparison of ideas for our mutual education. As
>for "neo-theosophy" I perceive it as a system distinct from pre
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>1895 theosophy. I don't think Saradarian really entered the
^^^^^^^^^^^
>discussions. He used to drop in and out of SD classes I used to
>hold and I used to invite him to do public talks at the LA
>Branch twice a year. Otherwise I didn't have much contact with
>him. He lives in Arizona now.
>Jerry HE
>International Theosophist
A couple of months ago I ran into some books of Saraydarian for
the first time he seems to have written quite a few just like every other
well-known theosophist ;-.
Trying to expand my Theosophy-related horizon I would be most
pleased to learn something more about him and this Aquarian
Educational Group. Anyone can tell me some more or refer me
to some address in Cyberspace?
Thanx...
/* Peter */
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 13:54:34 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
RI
>>But would it be arrogant to talk with apodictic certainty about
>>living Mahatmas and the authenticity of what one has learned by
>>means of Them if Their continuing existence were merely someone's
>>pleasant private belief to begin with?
ET
While it's fine to open up to consideration any particular idea
found in Theosophy and consider its pros and cons I don't think
that the basic ideas are anyone's pleasant private beliefs. The
ideas are part of a system of thought and they are interdependent.
You could also say the same thing about any of the basic ideas.
Perhaps Parabrahm is someone's private belief? Or other planes
of existence? Or the unity of life?
RI
Unless an individual corroborates these ideas theosophically mystically
transcendentally for himself or herself the ideas--for all of their beauty
and glory--are merely potential "contaminants" for the formation of egoic
delusions at either the desire-mental or mental levels of consciousness. "I
*really am* the idea I believe or am attracted to." "I *really am* my
dispassionate understanding of the idea and the logical operations and
implications which arise from it."
Few individuals who believe in the continuing existence of the Mahatmas seem
to testify that such a belief is an unpleasant or merely neutral thing for
them; therefore one might guess that it is "pleasant" or egoically "useful"
to them in some way. Possibly *ditto* for *Parabrahm* *planes* *unity*
etc.--however there is a much better chance that these are actually
individual theosophical insights since they are some of the first things
which authenticate themselves by means of meditative practice.
*Private* is really the thing I was hoping you would address. In this
instance I mean it in the sense of being "closed" or "restricted to the
individual." Assuming for the discussion that the fact of living Mahatmas
has *not* been validated theosophically by a person what could be another
basis for "believing" in Them? Is there any or is it merely a closed
pleasant private predilection of merely idiopathic importance. If it is
just the latter certainly the "Chain of Authority" we were talking about
seems a little slight . . . and to use it perhaps a little arrogant.
Would you be willing step up to the plate theosophically? That is would you
be willing to go on record and say that you have an inner certainty about the
continuing existence of the Mahatmas and that it has come as the natural
result of your meditative practice or that it has developed in you in some
other theosophical/mystical/transcendental way? I would accept such a
statement without challenge.
On the other hand look what we have without it:
"How do you know there are Mahatmas?"
"Because H.P.B. tells us there are."
"How do you know H.P.B. is reliable in this regard?"
"Because H.P.B.'s knowledge was given to her by Mahatmas."
"How do you know there are Mahatmas?"
"Because H.P.B. tells us there are."
"How do you know H.P.B. is reliable in this regard?"
"Because H.P.B's knowledge was given to her by Mahatmas."
"How do you know there are Mahatmas?"
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 15:39:15 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
>When it comes to accomplishing one's daily work there is no technique of
>Magick a period b which has not somewhere along the line been tried by
>Jerry Schueler c which can turn it into a Picnick d which can produce
>more success than choosing exactly the right occupation for oneself to begin
>with.
>
>Richard Ihle
Definitely b.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 15:39:19 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: To Eldon
Eldon:
>What do do after joining? This is the important question that comes
>up again and again. We can provide people with books and hold study
>classes but what do we really give them *to do*? They could become
>lodge presidents and hold classes for others but what if they are
>ready for more than reading books?
>
>When someone wants something more that person can come up with a
>self-devised approach to the Path. This is difficult though and
>not a likely thing. It's more likely that anyone doing so is simply
>"remembering" an approach taught them in a previous lifetime. More
>likely people will leave theosophical groups to find a teacher and
>practice.
>
>The techniques of theosophical groups are based upon teaching the
>basic philosophical ideas. The teachings stop short of actual
>spiritual practice and training and are theoretical. The highest
>person in a theosophical group may be a pundit but not a guru.
>If this is the goal of theosophical groups then they are successful.
>If we were to expect more of them then we could say that they
>fall short.
>
>The arrogance would come in I think when people active in
>theosophical groups would claim that *this is the highest there is*.
>That is when they claim that there are no higher practices training
>or approaches to the Path other than the study of books in theosophical
>lodges.
Eldon I find myself in full agreement with you here.
Eldon:
>The important question which you and many of us raise is:
>what do we give people to do when they've joined our theosophical
>groups? And how can we improve over what we currently offer?
>Let's move beyond potatoe-chip spirituality and see if we can
>cook up a full meal for people...
I would like to add "especially for those who are
members at large who must sink or swim entirely on their own."
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy international
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 15:39:26 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Some responses to Eldon's posting:
>According to our theosophical textbooks the separation into
>sexes happened in an earlier race and will one day in the
>distant future end. It is a temporary experience. We as
>human Monads are not male or female but simply human.
The sexes split at the inception of duality and will
continue so long as we live in a dualistic world.
>The being whose existence brings about our world a being which
>might be called "God" is sexless. Sexual differences are like
>other patterns of personality; they are psycho-physical. They
>are among those specific attributes taken on in a particular
>lifetime.
I do not believe that such a "being" exists. Our
world was brought about by a countless host of beings all
acting through karmic laws of causation and just a little
chaos to liven things up. Your words suggest a very narrow
definition of "sex." In occultism female and male mean a
lot more than physical bodies or personalities. Female is
soft and accepting while male is firm and directing. Male is
the conscious I while female is its world or Not-I and so on.
Bodies and personalities are but expressions of these basic
dualisms on the lower planes. They will continue must
continue on the lower planes so long as their basic
archetypes exist on the higher planes.
I agree with Jung that we each have an inner
opposite sexual identity so that every man has a feminine
anima and every woman has a masculine animus. Thus
I would say that we don't have to wait for countless eons
in the future but we are in fact whole and complete
human beings right now.
>While male and female are polarizations of our physical body
>and temporary constructs masculine and feminine are universal
>qualities that things can take on
As I noted above I see the lower as expressions of
the higher. If "masculine and feminine are universal qualities"
then we will take on male and female bodies forever because
these are but expressions.
>What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
>gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
>individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
>without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
>eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
This will not happen in any of our lifetimes and I
rather think it a pipedream albeit a nice one. The current
movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
to be more like men. This has already resulted in sever
psychological damage to many women and some men.
The answer is not for one sex to imitate the other but for
the two to combine in a monadic-like unity. I do not
believe that this will ever happen on Globe D.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy international
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 15:39:29 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Coherence:
> From observing the posts here it is becoming painfully clear that
>Theosophical Organizations are problematic and really need to be re-thought.
> Let me also state that I am not never have been and probably never will be
>a member of the or any T.S.
All human organizations are problematic. I learned this
from 30 years of working within a Government bureaucracy and in
earning my Masters of Science in Administration degree. This is
also something to keep in mind when we all talk about growth and
ways to increase our membership - the larger the organization the
more bureaucratic and unwieldy it becomes.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy international
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 15:39:33 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
>To truly know a person and look into their heart requires empathy
>a direct-connectedness that resides in Buddhi. We need to put ourselves
>in that person's place by realizing how we are connected with that
>person. Using psychism looking at their physical appearance listening
>to what they say we can gather *external clues* to what is going on.
>But it's in our direct experience of oneness with the other person
>in which we really know what is needed.
>
>-- Eldon
Buddhi looks out at another person and sees - buddhi.
Your last sentence is absolutely correct. But "oneness with the
other person" requires more than buddhi because that person
is more than buddhi and his/her problems are not in buddhi
but in kama-manas. You cannot look directly at another person's
kama-manas through your buddhi alone. Atma-buddhi-manas
does not recognize any "problems" that exist in kama-manas
nor will it even recognize kama-manas as existing at all
but rather sees the person as whole and quasi-perfect. If
you want to "see" the problems fears and so on in another
person you have to use psychism in the sense of using
your own kama-manas which hopefully has been enlightened
and purified by atma-buddhi.
In the terms of modern magic/occultism in order
to see another person's astral or mental bodies you must
be in your own astral or mental body and view from that
perspective. Buddhi is the causal body and viewing through
that vehicle will not help to see another person's astral or
mental bodies at all but only the other person's causal
body which will not be helpful.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy international
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 15:39:37 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Dark night of the soul
>>Jerry S. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>... The Dark-Night-of-the-Soul
>> is an anguishing experience that most of us go through at
>> some point in which the human mind eventually
>> comes to terms with the fact that its limited nature will never
>> allow it to fully understand or comprehend the infinite spirit.
>
>I thought of it more as the anguish one feels now I see I am
>speaking at the emotional level while you are addressing our mental
>state over the separation which occurs as we strike out away from
>the group we have been traveling with for many lifetimes.
>
>Lewis
I think that I have it right Lewis at least as it was used
in olden times. If this Dark Night is successfully passed through
one arrives at some level of gnosis or intuitive/spiritual insight
that is beyond the human mind. If it is not passed through the
usual result is death and one must try again in the next life. So
the Dark Night is really a pretty serious stage along the Path.
If one arrives at spiritual insight without going through this
Dark Night then I would assume that it was handled
successfully during a past life.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy international
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 16:37:21 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Newbies
>From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
>Subject: Re: Newbies
>At 053700 PM 12/11/95 -0500 Jerry S wrote:
>
>>suspicious. I don't expect newbies to "keep up" with some of my
>>discussions. After studying for almost 30 years I would hope that I
>>am able to talk over their heads at some point. While this is
>>probably frustrating to them I wish that I could have had theos-l 30
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>or so years ago when I was grappling with these subjects and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>learning all on my own. If I feel anything its probably envy. I am
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>a member at large and except for computer networking have
>>not had a chance to share views or discuss these subjects with
>>others.
>
> In the very early days of TS when there were very few written
>publications the members were having a difficult time getting information
>on various Theos* subjects. Reading your appreciation of theos-l and how it
>would have helped you if it were there I see an analogy. I truly believe
>Internet and the international access to theos-l is the next quantum leap
>and we Theosophists should make full use of it no matter what the organized
>entities/TS Organizations think about it or how they have reacted to it. I
>am very objective about this whole thing. How many times have you seen any
>of the elected/appointed officials at the national or regional level have
>ever posted any messages here. It is either due to illiteracy on their part
>or their indifference or what other reason they only know. As I pointed out
>in a msg some time back let us all put ourself in the seat of HPB and
>imagine how she would have used Internet as a means of attracting the
>attention of the world to the Theosophical ideas. It may give us some
>creative ideas.
>
>I must pass on that I send articles of interest to our National President
in Auckland and he tells me he enjoys reading them and if it isn't any
trouble to keep sending them. I have heard mention that they are thinking
about joining us one of these days. I have just sent a envelope full to do
with the by-law postings etc up there for his Xmas reading. I think lack of
time is one factor that has kept Internet at bay.
>
> I have always felt that JEM and any one else who took the initiative
>to put the theos-xxxx together have done all of us a great favor and our
>gratitude is due to all of them.
>
> ...doss
>
>>
>> Jerry S.
>When the list goes down from time to time I get withdrawal symptoms
because I just love this Internet and all you lovely people. I have learned
so much since joining and I appreciate your patience when I let rip.>
>>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
I know that John Algeo is too busy to read all of theos-l but some
people in Wheaton do & show John that which they deem important & to
the point.
I too miss theos-l when it goes off. Dreamscape was upgrading on Nov.
30 & I wasn't able to get back into my e-mail until Dec. 6. Out of
habit I came up to my apartment from the dining room & wanted to go
over to my computer desk & I also had withdrawal symptoms.
I would like to see some more systematic studying go on on theos-l.
So far we debate whatever comes to someone's mind. Come to think of
it why don't we have a separate theos- start for newcomers?
Like where one of us puts on something very basic every week.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 16:43:47 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Titillation
>From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
>Subject: Re: Titillation
>BB:
>>As Liesel said people learn quickest if they
>>are enthusiastic about what they are reading and if that is A B then I would
>>rather they did that than say 'no no' and give them SD. Sadly many want
>>titilation with their knowledge so while they are going through that stage
>>they will not take on something that takes serious thought.
>
>I was intrigued by the meaning of the word titillation in regard to esoteric
>material and spiritual growth so I consulted my robot dictionary and found
this
>interesting quote. It also suggests that one would have to keep "titillating"
>the readers or they will go elsewhere. Although I read and like CWL that
>reminds me of him and his more fantastic writings.
>
>Titillation
>To excite another especially in a superficial pleasurable manner: "Once you
>decide to titillate instead of illuminate . . . you create a climate of
>expectation that requires a higher and higher level of intensity" Bill
Moyers.
>
>The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language Third Edition
>copyright C 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from
>InfoSoft International Inc. All rights reserved.
>
What a handy dictionary. I like that definition and it fits nicely to the
groups I used to go to because the novelty wore off so I guess we ran out
of titillation.
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
Titillation reminds me of the crapola you can watch on American TV any time
day or night. Lunchtime today I was cruising around looking for something
interesting to look at while I ate my tofu chili. I found this talk
show where they were interviewing this pretty young lady who was
saying that she loved her disabled boy friend & that she was a
prostitute to get money for them both to live on. Why would she do
that for him? Because he was very kind to her.
So help me that's what I saw on TV this noon before I turned to
another channel
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 16:52:33 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: Alice A. Bailey; tenets
The writings of ALice A. Bailey AAB in shorthand make up an interesting
part of the overall body of theosophical publications IMO.
I don't believe there is any question about the books' basis in the
theosophy of HPB but there is certainly debate on nearly everything after
that point. As mentioned in an earlier post my introduction to AAB came
from a local TS group in Austin TX -- the first TS group I had ever met.
The following text is taken more or less verbatim from a pamphlet by the AAB
publishing group. I will attest to the accuracy of what is written here in
so far as matching the original published material -- I am interested to
know how the ideas fit or clash with "orthodox" theosophy as promoted by
the larger organizations. note: "new" is a relative term; some of the
"newer" ideas of Alice Bailey are commonplace now and we may discover that
the source as far as can be determined or inspriration may predate AAB.
It is *not* my intention to promote a debate or discussion regarding
materials which are not in public circulation from the ES archives or any
other such source.
Jim
The Tibetan Djwhal Khul has said that his work continues on the
foundations laid by Mdm. Blavatsky and the early teachers in the TS. He
gives us in some detail what he considers to be the "newer truths" and he
lists these seven ideas as
1 The teaching on Shamballa; the Spiritual Hierarchy of the earth and the
"center where the Will of God is known" including the nature of the will
aspect and the building of the conscious bridge between the personality and
the higher Self
2 The teaching on the New Discipleship including the changes resulting
from the new energies available as we transit into Aquarius and the
meditative techniques for the Aryan people
3 The teaching on the Seven Rays the conditioning energies or "Seven
Spirits before the Throne of God" emphasizing the psychology of the
consciousness of man and God
4 The teaching on the new astrology with the conditioning forces which
influence the soul and not the personality
5 Information about the New Group of World Servers as a group intermediate
between Hierarchy and humanity and determining the quality of the period in
which we live through the men and women of goodwill
6 The attempt to form an exoteric branch of the inner Ashram as detailed
in the two volumes of Discipleship in the New Age and
7 The teaching on the coming new world religion emphasizing the three
major festivals and nine lesser and of the meditations at the time of the
full moon. This establishes a relation between the work of the Buddha and
the Christ broadening human aspiration.
These are the essential teachings of the Tibetan. The Lucis Trust is the
organization responsible for the legal and financial affairs of the service
activities set up in conjunction with the Bailey teachings. There are a
number of parallels between the Lucis Trust and the TS; both organizations
have a wonderful and free lending library by mail both maintain a
correspondence course designed for training individuals in the methods of
occultism and meditation and both will absolutely fill your mailbox with
all kinds of interesting things just for asking.
In my opinion the Tibetan's teachings can be summed up as information about
*relationships* and the Laws and principles which govern them.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 16:52:37 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Father/Mother God
>From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
>Subject: Re: Father/Mother God
> Father-Mother-God! In Thy mercy in Thy love be Thou the
> guide just now as I seek in humility and in earnestness to
> present that which may give my fellow man [uh-oh] a better and
> more perfect insight into the love which was manifested by
> Jesus my Lord and my God. Help Thou O God my every effort.
> 849-76
Would you like to discuss this God person? I am up to my
armpits in heretical and gender-inclusive theology ......
Alan :-
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
Father/Mother/God ... Who dat man?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 17:01:30 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
>From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
>Subject: Re: Nutritious Theosophy
> [Liesel:]
>
> >In the same vein I don't approve of the By-laws revision that says
> >newcomers have to wait for 02 years to be able to vote. What for?
>
> Yeah what for? If I am correct this 2-year wait is necessary as well for
> joining the E.S. It's like you have to prove yourself a good theosophist
> or: member first. Isn't it possible that even young people already
> have their feet planted firmly on the Path perhaps more than age-long
> members? IMHO it's a person's own responsibility to make the best of it
> to follow one's Dharma!
>
> /* Peter */
> Member Theosophy International
Absolutely - some 17-year old on the net might be an old soul
returning to *tell* us something not to ask for it .....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
And suppose you don't as yet have your feet firmly planted on the
Path but are seeking as I did at first what's wrong with being
able to vote then? It's been 30 years since I started out with AB's
"The Ancient Wisdom". I think I've gotten a bit wiser but from what
I read from some of our younger theos-l members I keep on thinking
I got a very late start.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 17:22:08 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
Eldon
Re the Masters not giving out many esoteric secrets.
I think this is because many people are not as yet ethically advanced
enough to be able to work with those esoteric secrets without hurting
someone. Just think of the faculty of being able to read another
person's thoughts which is said to not be terribly difficult to do.
If you can read someone's thoughts you'll know all their weaknesses
and if you're not completely ethical loving & harmless
you might go right for the jugular
if you get angry enough at them. It makes good sense to me that some
esoteric things are only given out to those who are ready. The others
don't need to settle for crumbs really but they need to learn what
there is to learn which includes hoiw to practice Ahimsa.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 18:06:06 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: by-law vote
>From: MK Ramadoss
>Subject: Re: by-law vote
At 051000 PM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Dear Gerda Thompson
>
>I think you've got a real good idea. Instead of railroading these
>by-laws through now in such a short time there should be more time to
discuss them & we
>could vote on them lateron.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
>
do your really think anyone out there is thinking about thinking
thru this whole issue of railroading. their single thought at least to me
is how quickly we can get this thru and implement all that the new bylaws
empowers them to do.
..doss
I asked John Algeo whether he couldn't postpone the voting so we
could talk this thing over a little better & he said
that the Board would have to do it.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 18:14:57 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
Rich
If you were the Secretary of the Boston Lodge please tell us how it
came about that the building near Boston U campus was sold.
Also do you know what happened to Lou DeLuca?
Thanks.
Liesel
Member Theosoophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 18:39:16 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
At 102500 PM 12/12/95 -0500 Liesel wrote:
>esoteric things are only given out to those who are ready. The others
>don't need to settle for crumbs really but they need to learn what
>there is to learn which includes hoiw to practice Ahimsa.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
>
I completely agree with you. We all have a lot to learn and we do
learn every minute of our lives. The practice of Ahimsa just for the good
it contributes to all living beings is a very contributory way to help all
living beings which automatically includes humans and by practicing Ahimsa
may be progressing spiritually too.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 18:39:20 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: by-law vote
At 110600 PM 12/12/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Date: 11 199512 223725 -0500
>Reply-to: theos-l@vnet.net
>From: MK Ramadoss
>To: Multiple recipients of list
>Subject: Re: by-law vote
>
>At 051000 PM 12/11/95 -0500 you wrote:
>>Dear Gerda Thompson
>>
>>I think you've got a real good idea. Instead of railroading these
>>by-laws through now in such a short time there should be more time to
>discuss them & we
>>could vote on them lateron.
>>
>>Liesel
>>Member Theosophy International
>>Member Human Race
>>
>
> do your really think anyone out there is thinking about thinking
>thru this whole issue of railroading. their single thought at least to me
>is how quickly we can get this thru and implement all that the new bylaws
>empowers them to do.
>
> ..doss
>
>I asked John Algeo whether he couldn't postpone the voting so we
>could talk this thing over a little better & he said
>that the Board would have to do it.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
Glad you talked to John Algeo. Hope he brings this issue to the Board of
Directors and recommends that it is a good idea to postpone the whole thing.
I am sure the Board will go along.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 21:48:19 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
Doss wrote
> In the circustances both the National President and Brant Jackson
> need to apologize in public and send copies to everyone to whom the cover
> letter and Jackson's letters were sent.
>
> If on the other hand they have facts support that the tax exempt assets
> were converted to private benefit they need to file a complaint with
> Internal Revenue Service in public who will take action on the
> individuals involved.
Yes and if there's PROOF I will be shocked. I don't like the work that
these Boston Theosophists are doing but that is THEIR business and THEIR
karma. I was very invovled in the process and did not see anyone benefitting
PERSONALLY in any way especially financially. Rather it was a great
headache and sacrifice to everyone involved -- BOTH sides.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 22:42:01 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
Bee:
>I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
working full time on the project.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 22:42:01 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
Bee:
>I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
working full time on the project.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 22:52:34 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
Liesel wrote
> Rich
>
> If you were the Secretary of the Boston Lodge please tell us how it
> came about that the building near Boston U campus was sold.
>
> Also do you know what happened to Lou DeLuca?
>
> Thanks.
The building near Boston Univesity was sold because a Boston University
wanted it back and b it was necessary to liquidate funds to pay for the
lawsuit and to have dividends to split up between the two parties. 2/3 of
the assets remaining after the legal fees went to the newly incorporated
and independent Besant Lodge autonomous from TSA and 1/3 went to the
Blavatsky branch headed by regional director Fernando De Torrijos and his
wife Ruth. The building near BU was sold to the campus for nearly 01 million
dollars. There were nearly $400000 in legal fees and then $390000 went to
the Besant Lodge and nearly $200000 went to the Blavatsky lodge.
The Besant group used their money to buy the new building in Arlington a
suburb of Boston on the other side of the Charles River the next city out
beyond Cambridge.
The Blavatsky group meets privately in homes of members and to my knowledge
does not yet have meetings open to the public. It is not clear where the
funds have gone but I suppose that is the business of the TSA in Wheaton.
Both sides have very devoted serious Theosophists with totally opposing
points of view. If I were to characterize it the Besant lodge is into
"neo-Theosophy" and the Blavatsky lodge sticks to the lines first laid down
HPB Judge and the Mahatmas. But that is only my personal impression.
The Besant lodge likes to proudly show their "orthodoxy" by touting their
S.D. study group but I founded that study group myself over the strong
disinterest of the TS board there and for months we met in the BU building
with two members me and one student from Boston College. I have since moved
to UC Berkeley my student to pursue his Ph.D. at UC Santa Barbara.
Besant lodge never had a real interest in HPB except as a name to conjure
with and a figurehead under which to carry out their Bailey/Roerich/New Age
program. I strongly disapprove of their studies but HEY --- that's my
opinion and you will not catch me insulting them let alone spreading
vicious lies about using their monies from the lawsuit fraudulently.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 23:23:50 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Jerry S:
>The sexes split at the inception of duality and will
>continue so long as we live in a dualistic world.
I recall that it happened in the Third Root Race and think that
it may end in the Sixth. The separation is not so much related to
duality as it is to one form of physical reproduction.
>>The being whose existence brings about our world a being which
>>might be called "God" is sexless.
>I do not believe that such a "being" exists. Our
>world was brought about by a countless host of beings all
>acting through karmic laws of causation and just a little
>chaos to liven things up.
>From the standpoint of this greater being it is coming into birth
and all these hosts of beings are the life-atoms being drawn to form
its principles and physical body. It is not in conscious relationship
with any of these specific life-atoms.
>From the standpoint of the countless hosts of beings they create
the world and the highest of them govern over it.
We have a dual view to the creation of a world-system. There's the
point of view of the Heavenly Man and that of the countless
"creations" or creatures of the world.
First Brahman awakens within the bosom of Parabrahman. There is an
awareness of identity yet non existence. Then Brahma awakens as the
creative male God of the world to be. This is the First Being the
first to exist the great being out of which pour forth all the various
Monads into the world.
Brahma would be called male. There is no physical gender to him
but the masculine characteristics of activity potency creative
origination of things and control are all qualities that could be
given him. The use of "him" is anthropomorphic and is not intended
to somehow say that men are godlike and women are not.
All these creatures Monads that come into existence in this world
system fall into three streams of evolution. The architects lay out
the blueprints of the worlds and their functioning. The builders
follow the blueprints and construct the actual things of the worlds.
And the materials are the passive beings that take on the forms given
them and follow instictively the patterns life they were impressed
with.
>Your words suggest a very narrow
>definition of "sex." In occultism female and male mean a
>lot more than physical bodies or personalities. Female is
>soft and accepting while male is firm and directing. Male is
>the conscious I while female is its world or Not-I and so on.
I don't think we disagree on this. I'd say that the masculine
and feminine are universal qualities and appear at all levels
up to the first level of manifestation where "Father-Mother
spin a Web".
I'd not call these qualities "sex" but rather limit that term
to our temporary method of physical reproduction.
>I agree with Jung that we each have an inner
>opposite sexual identity so that every man has a feminine
>anima and every woman has a masculine animus.
I'd rather consider the psychological complex that is the mirror
opposite of our sex like the anima for a man as really part of
the shadow. It represents the unlived-out compliment of our
conscious personality. We currently have a polarization of
personalities along sexual lines because of cultural roles and
the differing responsibilities of child-bearing and child-rearing.
As the cultural roles change and in the future with different
methods of coming into birth this polarization will go away.
There still will be psychological complexes that represent
qualities that are not consciously lived out in our lives
but these complexes will be different.
>Thus I would say that we don't have to wait for countless eons
>in the future but we are in fact whole and complete
>human beings right now.
We would be whole and complete when we can stop the activity
of mind that objectivizes the world and creates the false
notion of a personal self.
>>What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
>>gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
>>individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
>>without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
>>eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
>This will not happen in any of our lifetimes and I
>rather think it a pipedream albeit a nice one. The current
>movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
>to be more like men.
The Jungian model would have us consider men and women as
intrinsically different with different psychological complexes
and archetypes at work in their personalities. This is true from
the level of the personality but the distinction is lost when
we function in a mode of awareness that transcends the personality.
>This has already resulted in severe
>psychological damage to many women and some men.
The personality functions in a cultural context and that
context includes the different psychological and social training
that boys and girls are brought up with. The personality should
be regarded as living thing and allowed to grow and change as
nature dictates. If we attempt radical changes there's the danger
of psychological damage. For some it's possible to have both
masculine and feminine characteristics for others it may not be.
I wouldn't make a general rule one way or the other.
>The answer is not for one sex to imitate the other but for
>the two to combine in a monadic-like unity. I do not
>believe that this will ever happen on Globe D.
It's only at the highest level that the masculine and feminine
qualities are unified where we have "Father-Mother". Below this
level in the manifest world we have various mixes of these
separate qualities. Long after the physical distinction between
the sexes has gone away we'll still I think have masculine
individuals like Aries types and feminine individuals like
Pisces types.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 12 Dec 1996 23:59:18 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: TI
>Going up ....
>
>THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
>three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
>suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
>thus:
>
>1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
>discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
>orientation creed class or color.
>
>2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
>theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
>individual ability and inclination.
>
>3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
>human potential and abilities.
>
>THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
>whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
>allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
>done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
>by any member. ***
>
>There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
>donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
>projects or even individuals for particular and specified
>purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
>need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
>activity is an entirely personal matter.
>
>The following internet folk have so far signed up:
>
>Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
>Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
>Murray Stentiford; Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
>Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker .......
>
>*** It has been suggested that we add:
>
>We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
>others.
>
>I feel sure those above-named agree so please press your reply
>button/key and add "*** YES" to this message. Don't bother to
>snip just reply. Many thanks. Unanimity would be real nice .....
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>Yes.
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 00:06:51 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
>
>> > When it comes to accomplishing one's daily work there is no technique of
>> > Magick a period b which has not somewhere along the line been tried by
>> > Jerry Schueler c which can turn it into a Picnick d which can produce
>> > more success than choosing exactly the right occupation for oneself to
begin
>> > with.
>> >
>> > Richard Ihle
>
> e that will not if spoken about aloud result in your excommunication
>from Theosophy the immediate seizure and sale of all of your Lodge's
>property and possessions and the public assertion from Wheaton that this
>is really a good thing that is only designed to prevent great potential
>damage.
>
>Hi y'all ... am back at least to the degree very scarce time permits.
>Bumped into Morya during an inner adventure who told me I could burn off
>all remaining karma from those 17 embarrassing brutal-dictator past lives
>if I stayed connected to Theosophy for another 02 weeks tee hee - oh
>yeah ... Morya also told me to give all those who believe Wheaton has
>finally gone too far and are finally ready to do something about it and
>have been very busily researching the pragmatic means by which to
>accomplish the badly-needed transformation the following message:
>
> Its time.
>
>[I don't know what this means ... perhaps some do -:].
>
>Just kidding.
>
>Sort of.
> Love and giggles -JRC
>
>[PS. Sorry for probably being almost instantly irritating again. I took a
>vow but I guess it didn't help -:].
>
Just a bit of high-brow humour. What is life without a sense of fun? I need
a giggle just now. We have moved all our theosophy stuff and library into
the garage of our new premises and now the solicitor tells me we have to
have the Common Seal by or else the signatures on the transfer papers
are not valid. Panic panic!!!! At this stage I have ordered a new one and
cross my fingers it arrives by Friday. Otherwise we may have to scratch
through our boxes.
A little lighthearted kidding is welcome.
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 00:08:07 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Anne:
> Could this "host" be another's understanding that you believe in such a
> "being"? May-be God is and/or isn't a being. It's all OK isn't it?
> Because one person's conception can be the same as another's yet the
> language used to define it different. Myths teach us that. To me "God"
> is everywhere and manifests itself in love and energyprana. That can make
> "God" no thing. But then again God's beingness can be the grasping
> projections that help some in advancement and bring personification for
> another level of relationship. The Hindu gods are great examples of that.
> It's at that level in representation that it is important to not forget
> both masculine and feminine aspects or an imbalance can be created that has
> great social implications.
To ascribe gender in any way to deity *per se* is no go. To
ascribe gender to aspects of deity or divinity in action or
expression is in itself silly but we may feel a need as
human beings who *do* have gender to express such activity in
human terms - but this is for our convenience and has nothing
to do with what God is.
As a theologian as well as a theosophian may I state: God is
not a being and never was. In the Western version of the
Ancient Wisdom found in the Bible Tanach and other writings
the "name" of God is given as YHWH or Yahweh or in HPB's time
Jehovah.
This name is a variant form of the Hebrew verb "to be" and
intelligently understood hence such phrases as "whoever has
ears to hear" represents insofar as human awareness is
capable of knowing what it means the fact of eternal being or
being-ness *as such*.
In the Aramaic-speaking world in which Jesus taught the word
for God as in Hebrew is ALWH or "Elohe" or similar but has
the same connotation to a middle-easterner today as it did then.
For example in the Arab-speaking world Arabic derives from
Aramaic and Hebrew to argue over the existence of God is
regarded as absurd and Islam has no time for atheists. This is
not prejudice but common sense for to argue in any of those
languages that God does not exist is to argue that *Being*
does not exist - an obvious absurdity. One could represent a
well-known saying therefore:
In God [YHWH = Eternal Being] we live and move and have our
[individual] being.
To put it another way we as monads are part of the ALL.
Bit of a relief really.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 00:08:26 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
> On 12 199512 Eldon B. Tucker wrote:
>
>> Coherence:
>>
>> >Several have requested recommendations for a simpler statement of the
>> >philosophy sources which are not so daunting. Here are my recommendations:
>> >
>> >UNIVERSAL THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A wonderful "primer" for the any
>> >student and the book that was handed to me first 15 years ago.
>> >
>> >LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME by Wm Q. Judge. A collection of letters by
>> >Judge to students comprising a warm wise and practical approach to
>> >Theosophy.
>> >
>> >THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Wm Q. Judge. A summary of the SD in very
readable
>> >language and an amazingly small book. Gets to the heart of the matter.
>> >
>> >ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by Robert Crosbie. A great
>> >companion to the Ocean
>>
>> There is a copy of a computerized version of "The Ocean of Theosophy"
>> and "Universal Theosophy" on theosophy.org. The first is in WordPerfect 5.1
>> format. I set it up and proof-read it. The second is in ascii format.
>> These two were scanned by someone in Canada. It's been a few years since
>> I got the original scanned text and can't seem to find the piece of paper
>> where I wrote down the name of the guy that scanned them or I'd give
>> his name and email address.
>>
>> They also have a version of "Esoteric Buddhism" and "The Key to Theosophy"
>> also both in WordPerfect 5.1 format. I understand that they will be
>> reformatting the materials into HTML format. These two I set up.
>>
>> -- Eldon
>>
>
>Eldon:
>
>Glad to know the electronic version of classics in Theosophy. If anyone
>else knows about what else is available in electronic media it could be
>the start of a project to put all of them on a CD Rom. The prices of
>recordable CD Rom have come down and soon we all can have a couple of CD
>Roms with all the published Theosophy works.
>
>..doss
>
I thought I heard mention that the London Lodge is doing something like
that. Is that so Alan?>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 00:26:22 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Masters?
Here's one I prepared earlier:
-----------------------------
ON THE HIDDEN MASTERS
Again and again in occult writings reference is made to higher
beings who when the time is right appear to instruct and
enlighten the student pupil or aspirant. While this is
undoubtedly true after a manner of speaking it is clear that
some very strange ideas must exist in the minds of readers of
occult literature. Maybe it is possible for an aspirant to
higher knowledge to flit off in the astral body to mysterious
Tibet or the fastness of the Himalayas there to sit at the
feet of some ancient wizened guru who will either also be in
the astral or will have full astral vision in the physical.
This may be possible certainly but it is not very likely.
We may with considerable justification wonder why such
"masters" do on occasion appear to give countenance to
contradictory statements as contradictory as the very ordinary
differences of opinion which pass among we lesser beings. Let
us endeavour to clarify the situation.
Hidden teachers there most certainly are but to think of them
as knowing all things is unwise. No doubt in their various ways
they may individually be adept in some art or another but that
strangely enough does not for any practical purpose concern
an aspirant to higher knowledge. They are most certainly beings
at a higher level of existence than those of us in the human
state or better higher intelligences with higher but not
necessarily absolute knowledge and understanding. Hidden they
may be but not from choice on their part - they have no
inclination to be either hidden or not hidden from ourselves.
They are hidden simply due to the inability of the average
person to become aware of them.
When a student of life's mysteries raises consciousness to a
sufficiently high level then individual awareness will abut upon
the level at which these intelligences have their being and for
the student the teacher may seem to appear. In truth it is
rather different. In the event that wondering and wandering
consciousness touches upon the experience of a higher
intelligence so will questions be answered from the knowledge
of that intelligence.
Such intelligences or teachers are not however sitting up yonder
somewhere in a higher state waiting for pupils to pop in with
questions. Nor do they spend their time watching benevolently
over any human flock like a shepherd with the sheep. As we at
our level are gathering experience in life so at another
level are higher intelligences. The One Life permeates through
all levels without as Thomas A Kempis put it "respect of
persons." From The point of view of higher intelligences it is
the student who appears as impinging upon their consciousness
where it was not impinged upon before: and they are perfectly
aware of it.
Such a higher consciousness is part of what in Christian terms
may be called the communion of saints. In broader terms this is
a communion of individual intelligences in permanent
communication; but generally speaking at our level of being
unconsciously - which is for most of us very fortunate. When
the aspirant after higher things touches usually briefly the
higher levels he or she becomes for a short time part of this
communion shares in the higher life and knowledge comes
according to need. Not it must be added according to fancy
or ideas of self. In this higher communion there is no
identification no idealisation; here is knowledge of reality;
aspirants are aware in their own higher selves and are their
own teachers by virtue of the higher communion. This is both
more practical and reliable than any form of astral travelling.
As for apparent differences of opinion emanating from various
intelligences it may be that like us they differ among
themselves. It may also be and is very likely so that we have
made contact imperfectly and that the higher "voice" is that of
our own dreams telling us what we would like to hear. On a
contemporary note we may wonder why "masters" and not
"mistresses" are usually mentioned in the older writings. The
answer is most likely that as the study of the Mysteries has
been for at least two thousand years the privilege of men
then these discarnate intelligences are largely former male
human beings. Since the latter part of the nineteenth and the
beginning of the twentieth centuries this has begun to change
and we may be sure there are on what Dion Fortune called the
inner planes an increasing number of former female human
beings to keep her company there along with such luminaries as
H.P.Blavatsky.
["Channelled" and reworked over the years with magisterial
approval as a result of direct personal experience by Alan
Bain who hereby places this text in the public domain].
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 00:29:06 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Xmas
A Happy Christmas to all my readers!
And a sobering thought:
----------------------
"THEY WILL RECEIVE MY SON"
FATHER YOU WERE NAIVE
SO TO BELIEVE.
WHAT IF TONIGHT HE SLEEPS AGAIN
HEAVEN IN HAY
MAN AMONG MEN
TILL THE WORLD'S BELLS BEGIN AND PLAY
"ADESTE" ON CHRISTMAS DAY?
WILL SAGE AND SHEPHERD GIFT AND GLORY
ROUND OUT THE STORY?
FATHER YOUR FOLK PREPARE A HILL
MORE TERRIBLE STILL.
Ernest Britten Page Nov 1957.
===================================
Alan
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Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 00:32:29 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: TI
OK folks ..........
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
thus:
1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
orientation creed class or color.
2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
individual ability and inclination.
3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
human potential and abilities at the same time respecting _all_
life.
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
by any member. ***
There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
projects or even individuals for particular and specified
purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
activity is an entirely personal matter.
We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
others.***
The following internet folk have so far signed up:
*Jerry Hejka-Ekins; *Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
*Liesel F. Deutsch; *Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
*Murray Stentiford; *Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
*Eldon B. Tucker; *Anne Picker; *John E. Mead;
*** It was suggested that we add the above line and as most
of us have said "Yes" [or Aye or Oui!] I hope that Sy Peter and
Jerry will send me a brief e-mail confirming their agreement if
their vote has not already crossed in the post.
Those above with * by their name have already done this.
There have been a number of representations to me privately as
well as on the list to include a reference to the theosophical
respect for life. JEM has also had various representations
following his own posting re the list in general.
I have taken the liberty therefore of adding to "Object 3" above
the words "At the same time respecting _all_ life" where _all_
would be in italics if in printed form. As I find it difficult
to imagine a true theosophist objecting to this I hope to avoid
a vote by assuming all agree with the basics as we now have them
- but if need be I will un-take the liberty if the signers and
members of TI tell me to.
A few folk on the list have suggested variant forms of words for
this or that expression of what we are trying to promote but
may I ask that we leave it as it has developed so far at least
for a while? To appear to be nit picking over the words does
no one any good and we are all free to write our own essays on
the topics and post them wheresoever we will - I mean the
Internet really *is* the land of the free but watch out for the
US Congress! I wonder if they have yet realized that the net is
international and they cannot legislate internet law for the UK
Sweden Malaysia the Pacific Ocean etc....
As an example of what TI means to me personally I have adopted
Liesel's valuable point that we are also members of the human
race see mine and her sigs. But that doesn't mean we all have
to say so even if we believe it.
Jerry and at least one other prefer the sig "International
Theosophist" - and why not? The *spirit* of TI is conveyed just
the same isn't it? And it's the spirit that matters more
than the detail of the words.
Falls off soapbox.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 01:19:53 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
At 024900 AM 12/13/95 -0500 Rich wrote:
>Doss wrote
>
>> In the circustances both the National President and Brant Jackson
>> need to apologize in public and send copies to everyone to whom the cover
>> letter and Jackson's letters were sent.
>>
>> If on the other hand they have facts support that the tax exempt assets
>> were converted to private benefit they need to file a complaint with
>> Internal Revenue Service in public who will take action on the
>> individuals involved.
>Yes and if there's PROOF I will be shocked. I don't like the work that
>these Boston Theosophists are doing but that is THEIR business and THEIR
>karma. I was very invovled in the process and did not see anyone benefitting
>PERSONALLY in any way especially financially. Rather it was a great
>headache and sacrifice to everyone involved -- BOTH sides.
>
>Rich
>
When one National President & Brant Jackson makes statements such
as the above it is very important that one checks the accuracy of the
information. The responsibility is much higher when a a member of the
Judiciary Committee makes it and 02 when the National President forwards it
to members with a cover letter in effect vouching for it.
We all agree that the resources should be protected. But we have to
do it in a very clear and convincing manner with full and free disclosure of
facts. I hope we see a rebuttal from them with complete facts surrounding
their statements if they can substantiate them. Having spent such large
amount of legal fees I am sure lawyers would have collected a large amount
of information which can be used.
To ignore and not responding will affect their credibility and I do
not want that to happen.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 01:19:55 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
At 035200 AM 12/13/95 -0500 Rich wrote:
>Liesel wrote
>
>> Rich
>>
>> If you were the Secretary of the Boston Lodge please tell us how it
>> came about that the building near Boston U campus was sold.
>>
>> Also do you know what happened to Lou DeLuca?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
>The building near Boston Univesity was sold because a Boston University
>wanted it back and b it was necessary to liquidate funds to pay for the
>lawsuit and to have dividends to split up between the two parties. 2/3 of
>the assets remaining after the legal fees went to the newly incorporated
>and independent Besant Lodge autonomous from TSA and 1/3 went to the
>Blavatsky branch headed by regional director Fernando De Torrijos and his
>wife Ruth. The building near BU was sold to the campus for nearly 01 million
>dollars. There were nearly $400000 in legal fees and then $390000 went to
>the Besant Lodge and nearly $200000 went to the Blavatsky lodge.
>
>The Besant group used their money to buy the new building in Arlington a
>suburb of Boston on the other side of the Charles River the next city out
>beyond Cambridge.
>
>The Blavatsky group meets privately in homes of members and to my knowledge
>does not yet have meetings open to the public. It is not clear where the
>funds have gone but I suppose that is the business of the TSA in Wheaton.
>
>Both sides have very devoted serious Theosophists with totally opposing
>points of view. If I were to characterize it the Besant lodge is into
>"neo-Theosophy" and the Blavatsky lodge sticks to the lines first laid down
>HPB Judge and the Mahatmas. But that is only my personal impression.
>
>The Besant lodge likes to proudly show their "orthodoxy" by touting their
>S.D. study group but I founded that study group myself over the strong
>disinterest of the TS board there and for months we met in the BU building
>with two members me and one student from Boston College. I have since moved
>to UC Berkeley my student to pursue his Ph.D. at UC Santa Barbara.
>
>Besant lodge never had a real interest in HPB except as a name to conjure
>with and a figurehead under which to carry out their Bailey/Roerich/New Age
>program. I strongly disapprove of their studies but HEY --- that's my
>opinion and you will not catch me insulting them let alone spreading
>vicious lies about using their monies from the lawsuit fraudulently.
>
>Rich
>
Rich:
1 what a waste of money that could have been spent for much more
productive purposes.
2 glad you posted the information.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 02:29:26 GMT
From: Sy Ginsburg <72724.413@compuserve.com>
Subject: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
I personally visited the Boston Lodge on 191911 1995 and spoke to their
officers at length because I wanted to get their side of the story. What I was
told at Wheaton during the Jul convention by Fernando de Torrijos did not ring
true to me and I could not understand how he as a member of the national board
and the northeast director could have brought the lawsuit that he brought.
Further I could not understand how our national board could have financially
backed that lawsuit paying attorneys etc. the funds for which ultimately came
out of the assets of the Boston Lodge. The Boston Lodge building was sold to
Boston University for between $800000 and $850000 I have been given 02
different figures by the parties but believe that the sale price was somewhere
right in there. Fernando did confirm that the attorneys for both sides split up
about $200000 in legal fees and expenses. From what I found out subsequently
it does appear that the figure is closer to $270000. I don't know about
$400000 that Rich Taylor indicates but if Rich was treasurer and on the
inside perhaps his figure is correct. Like Rich I do not believe that there
was any misappropriation of funds. I know that the Boston Lodge used their
share of the lawsuit settlement about $390000 to buy a new building in
Arlington. I visited it. What did Fernando's small minority do with their
share about $195000? He told me in Jul that it was still in the bank. I
would hope that by now they have bought a property with which to present
Theosophical studies.
The point in all this and the real tragedy in my view is that in the so-called
interests of preserving Theosophical assets which is the reason that has been
given me for the proposed By-Law revisions #15 #16 and #17 our national
directors engaged in activities which dissipated large amounts of Theosophical
assets in addition to losing the 60+ members of the Boston Lodge. I consider
what the national directors did was outrageous. If they had not butted in at
great cost to our Society the Boston Lodge could have moved to Cambridge where
they really wanted to locate and have gotten a top notch location. i.e. maybe
off Harvard Square and put Theosophy right out there to expose more people to
it. As it is they bought a quite nice building in Arlington with what they
could afford. But they could have done something really great to make the
Theosophical Society better known in a key metropolitan area had the lawsuit
not been forced upon them which only created divisiveness and bitterness and
dissipation of assets.
Behind this all is I think was an effort on the part of Fernando and the other
national directors to oppose the eclectic studies going on in the Boston Lodge
and especially the Alice Bailey studies. Where in any of HPB's or the Masters
writings does it say what people must or must not study?
The Boston Lodge does have a Secret Doctrine study group and it is going on
right now. It probably is not well attended but at least they are trying to
keep it out there. Maybe some people who are drawn to the Lodge by their wide
array of other studies will begin to look at the works of HPB. This is what we
find at our Miami Lodge. We have a Secret Doctrine study group also and 03
other specifically Theosophical study groups. We give them prime time in our
schedule but we have a lot of other studies too. Because of this our Lodge is
active and growing over 100 members. Because we have all these members some
come along and begin to study HPB. How else is the Society going to grow and
stay alive? The decision to study the Secret Doctrine or anything else for
that matter must be left to the local Lodges and Study Centers. This is what
the second and third declared objects of the Society are all about.
Rich Taylor says that he strongly disapproves of the Boston Lodge studies
meanwhile saying that he founded their Secret Doctrine study group. The fact
that it was poorly attended is in my view because of the difficult nature of
the material. Boston Lodge is still trying with apparently only mediocre
success to put the Secret Doctrine out there so the public can be exposed to
it. How many of our Lodges have people clamoring to study the Secret Doctrine?
If we start telling Lodges what they can and cannot study the membership will
only continue to shrink. Look at our Society 4200 members and declining year
by year. What is going on and why this attitude on the part of Wheaton that
they know best that they can and should tell Lodges what to do? The sorry
state of our membership size is ample evidence that national must put its own
house in order and stop trying to tell good people in Lodge work who want to be
of service what to do. Wheaton should be serving the Lodges with resources to
provide lecturers to provide funding for bookstores and libraries to show
Lodges how to attract more members so that Theosophy can become better known.
Wheaton does some very good things along these lines and for that I applaud
them. It is when they choose to be masters rather than servants as in the
Boston case that they disparage the Theosophical Society.
In my view Wheaton must be the servant of the Lodges and Study Centers if they
are people who genuinely want to serve Theosophy and not try to be the masters
of those Lodges and Study Centers and I believe this also should apply to Adyar
on the international level. There appears to be something very wrong there
also.
Sy Ginsburg
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:08:59 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
On 13 199512 Eldon B. Tucker wrote:
> Bee:
>
> >I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
>
> I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
> theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
> Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
> including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
> can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
> working full time on the project.
>
> -- Eldon
>
Keep us informed of any new information you come across. I am
forwarding a copy of this to TSA requesting any information they have.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:13:23 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
[re CD-ROM texts]
> >
> I thought I heard mention that the London Lodge is doing something like
> that. Is that so Alan?>
> >
> >
> Bee Brown
> Member Theosophy International
No news about this - sorry.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:13:39 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM fwd
Theosophical Society in America:
If you have any information on the following as well as the availability
of any other CD Rom as well as any other project currently in process
that you are aware of can you please post a msg here for my benefit as
well as other Theosophists.
Thanks
M K Ramadoss - ramadoss@eden.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:20:59 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
>
> Love and giggles -JRC
>
> [PS. Sorry for probably being almost instantly irritating again. I took a
> vow but I guess it didn't help -:].
It never does. I signed the Peace Pledge and someone hit me.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:22:54 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
> A little lighthearted kidding is welcome.
> Bee Brown
> Member Theosophy International
To Bee: A little lighthearted kidding. :-
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:26:12 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Newbies
> >I expect she would have signed up for THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL
> >and used a similar sig to mine but probably on a higher plane :-
> >
> >How about you? :-
> >
> >Alan
> >--
> >Member Theosophy International.
> >Member Human Race.
> >----------------------------------------
> >Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
> Probably sign as a Human Being!!!
>
> .doss
>
Could you be a little more specific? :-
Alan
--
Still a Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:35:56 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Father/Mother God
>
> Would you like to discuss this God person? I am up to my
> armpits in heretical and gender-inclusive theology ......
>
> Alan :-
> --
>
> Liesel: Father/Mother/God ... Who dat man?
Presumably not ....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:47:23 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
> Some responses to Eldon's posting:
>
> >What we will find in the future I think is that as physical
> >gender differences disappear that anyone can live out an
> >individually-appropriate mix of masculine and feminine qualities
> >without regard to the size of their nose the color of their
> >eyes nor their reproductive plumbing.
>
> This will not happen in any of our lifetimes and I
> rather think it a pipedream albeit a nice one. The current
> movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
> to be more like men.
This is a pretty sweeping generalization Jerry - I don't see
how you could reasonably substantiate it. I know a number of
feminists working for equality and *none* of them is like a man
- they are women all the way through. One woman who entered the
fray in a "male" manner had a hard ride ... hasn't been around
much since either.
> This has already resulted in sever
> psychological damage to many women and some men.
Supporting evidence?
> The answer is not for one sex to imitate the other but for
> the two to combine in a monadic-like unity. I do not
> believe that this will ever happen on Globe D.
>
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy international
No.
Alan :-
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Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 03:57:52 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: TI
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
thus:
1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
orientation creed class or color.
2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
individual ability and inclination.
3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
human potential and abilities.
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
by any member.
There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
projects or even individuals for particular and specified
purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
activity is an entirely personal matter.
The following internet folk have so far signed up:
Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
Murray Stentiford; Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker John E. Mead.
Only 04 "YES" replies to proposed addition *** so far .......
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 04:42:40 GMT
From: Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
Bee:
>I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
working full time on the project.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 05:09:22 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: TI
OUI
>
>THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
>three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
>suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
>thus:
>
>1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
>discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
>orientation creed class or color.
>
>2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
>theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
>individual ability and inclination.
>
>3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
>human potential and abilities.
>
>THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
>whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
>allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
>done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
>by any member.
>
>There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
>donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
>projects or even individuals for particular and specified
>purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
>need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
>activity is an entirely personal matter.
>
>The following internet folk have so far signed up:
>
>Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
>Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
>Murray Stentiford; Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
>Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker John E. Mead.
>
>Only 04 "YES" replies to proposed addition *** so far .......
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>-----------------------------------------------
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 05:45:53 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>Some responses to Eldon's posting:
>
>>
> I do not believe that such a "being" exists. Our
>world was brought about by a countless host of beings all
>acting through karmic laws of causation and just a little
>chaos to liven things up.
Could this "host" be another's understanding that you believe in such a
"being"? May-be God is and/or isn't a being. It's all OK isn't it?
Because one person's conception can be the same as another's yet the
language used to define it different. Myths teach us that. To me "God"
is everywhere and manifests itself in love and energyprana. That can make
"God" no thing. But then again God's beingness can be the grasping
projections that help some in advancement and bring personification for
another level of relationship. The Hindu gods are great examples of that.
It's at that level in representation that it is important to not forget
both masculine and feminine aspects or an imbalance can be created that has
great social implications.
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 05:59:15 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>> The current
>movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
>to be more like men. This has already resulted in sever
>psychological damage to many women and some men.
>
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy international
>
>I am sorry I haven't finished. Another thing I wanted to mention was
about this last statement. I have heard this from some men and non-feminist
women before and I don't agree. I hate to be labeled a feminist just
because I do what I want and I don't let my gender be an issue unless it is
walking down the street at midnight. If being "like a man" means not
putting up with being forced to mindlessly obey to cook and clean against
your will to abstain from developing your intellectual and creative
abilities stay home and not work and develop the abibilities associalted
with that to be paid less for the same work to work twice as hard to get
the same recognition than OK. If Being free to create and BE means that one
is imitating men-then what's wrong with it? A man is not those things any
more than a woman. If Nietshze and Plato great philosophers thought women
not more intelligent or able than mere animalstheir words not mine then
WOW!!!SOCIETY!!!not gender
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 07:03:34 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Titillation
Liesel:
>Titillation reminds me of the crapola you can watch on American TV
>any time day or night. Lunchtime today I was cruising around looking for
>something
>interesting to look at while I ate my tofu chili. I found this talk
>show where they were interviewing this pretty young lady who was
>saying that she loved her disabled boy friend & that she was a
>prostitute to get money for them both to live on. Why would she do
>that for him? Because he was very kind to her.
>So help me that's what I saw on TV this noon before I turned to
>another channel
That's pretty much the norm for most TV talk shows. Wish I had a dollar for
every time one of those shows brought out the male strippers and female exotic
dancers. Last week I taped a documentary on the life of Rod Serling on PBS.
They showed many clips from the dramas he wrote for early television and the
Twilight Zone. They were in black and white but they far outstripped most of
today's television in their acting writing dramatic presentation and ability
to get across a real moral point of the story. The show talked many times about
how Serling had to fight with the TV executives because they were sure this
heavy drama wouldn't "sell" and how they were afraid their advertisers would
stop paying for air time.
Televison is a wonderful technical and communicative tool that has been
prostituted since the Golden Age of television ended. And the movie industry
isn't far from that description. People with good ideas and solid stories are
often shoved aside for gimmicks or remakes. The guys in power are so afraid
they won't make another billion on a project they'd rather bet on a "sure"
thing. Like the "Brady Bunch" movie or some other piece of nonsense. Heard
they're going to make a movie out of Mr. Ed. For those not in the US he was a
talking horse that starred in a sitcom in the late fifities. I remember my
family eating waffles in front of the television on nite while we all
watched this great looking horse spout horse sense to his owner.
- ann
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 07:28:22 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
writes:
>
>[re CD-ROM texts]
>> >
>> I thought I heard mention that the London Lodge is doing something like
>> that. Is that so Alan?>
>> >
>> >
>> Bee Brown
>> Member Theosophy International
>
>No news about this - sorry.
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
Sorry I have just remembered that it was mentioned to me by the President
of Palmerston North after he came back from a visit to England a year ago
and he was very pleased with what was being done and it sounded very
impressive. I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 07:38:45 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Multiple Choice V Authorized Series
writes:
>
>> A little lighthearted kidding is welcome.
>> Bee Brown
>> Member Theosophy International
>
>To Bee: A little lighthearted kidding. :-
>
>
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
Gee thanks. You could have used .zip as they tramped all over my hard disc
and set up error messages.:-D >
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 08:07:29 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
>Eldon
>
>Re the Masters not giving out many esoteric secrets.
>I think this is because many people are not as yet ethically advanced
>enough to be able to work with those esoteric secrets without hurting
>someone. Just think of the faculty of being able to read another
>person's thoughts which is said to not be terribly difficult to do.
>If you can read someone's thoughts you'll know all their weaknesses
>and if you're not completely ethical loving & harmless
>you might go right for the jugular
>if you get angry enough at them. It makes good sense to me that some
>esoteric things are only given out to those who are ready. The others
>don't need to settle for crumbs really but they need to learn what
>there is to learn which includes hoiw to practice Ahimsa.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
>
Yes the promotion of positive thinking and thought projection is taught to
sales persons and they use it to increase their sales. They are using what
amounts to unseen forces to the detriment of the potential customer. The
sales persons are required to attend meetings where they are subjected to
all sorts of psychological mind twisting to whip up their enthusiasm for the
products they sell. I look upon that as misuse of esoteric teachings. The
control of the thought processes are recommended in many of the teachings as
a necessary step and have been picked up and used in different ways against
people. The human race can't be kept in the dark for ever so hopefully ethic
will prevail one day and these faculties will be used properly.>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 08:11:49 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: He/She/It
Jerry S.:
>> The current
>movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
>to be more like men. This has already resulted in sever
>psychological damage to many women and some men.
>
So true. My husband was the oldest of six children and had to take on the
housework and child care when his mother went to work as an accountant. His
father an auto mechanic couldn't make enough to feed and clothe the crew. He
grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when he is
at the sink elbow deep in suds. It's an awful thing to make a man a sex
object don't you think?
- ann
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 11:59:43 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Trust Problem
The more I contemplate the by-laws imbroglio for that is what
it appears to be becoming the more it seems to boil down to a
basic lack of trust on the part of the members toward Wheaton
and Adyar.
On a personal basis I have enjoyed visiting Wheaton have met
most board members and feel a general trust that they and the
staff there have Theosophy's best interests at heart. Yet the
Bing episode and some previous power-struggle things I've heard
about make me feel that 01 some people are trying to control
things in underhanded ways and 02 their motives are mysterious
and perhaps not benevolent. This is admittedly a suspicious
mood rather than a well-founded conclusion.
When we look at Adyar and the various section expulsions the
same sense of distrust is engendered. One doesn't know exactly
who is trying to control what there's little information on
what has occurred but in the absence of information one can
only speculate.
The best cure I can imagine for this kind of generalized
distrust is a completely open discussion of the issues
involved. Until the membership knows exactly what went on in
Boston Canada Yugoslavia Denmark we are not likely to be
receptive to the message from higher up that "we need more
control over you for your own good." What's really at stake?
Who's really concerned about it?
I hope that if the controversial amendments are defeated that
there will be more time for discussion and a more open forum
for it than we have had in the past.
When years ago I described the way the ULT operates to my
brother anonymity secret officers no by-laws etc. he said
"Oh that's a cryptocracy." Meaning an organization in which
the government is secret. Even though the Adyar TS has all the
paraphernalia of a democracy there are still ways that it's
cryptocratic due to the ES and other factors. I sense in the
unease expressed here about the by-laws a deeper unease about
the very nature of Theosophical democracy and a sense that
cryptocracy lurks beneath its surface. Restoration of trust
requires first of all a sense that there is real meaning to our
democratic institutions and that they aren't just window
dressing for cryptocracy. The suggestion of postponing the
vote may not be feasible but it would help make people feel
better about the genuineness of the democratic process.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 12:05:51 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
On 13 199512 M K Ramadoss wrote:
>
> MKR
> The board can always find a way to postpone the implementation of
> the bylaws even if they are passed. So it all depends how the board views
> the situation and what it wants to do.
In fact I believe someone is currently composing a letter citing
the several different ways in which the TS Bylaws themselves have *not
been followed* in both the preparation for the vote as well as the actual
balloting. The current vote is likely to be *invalid* - and unlike the
past few years of behaviour at best unethical and domineering and at
worst possibly outright illegal ... there is now a growing number of
people who will simply not keep quiet about this and will force the
issue. Wheaton had best begin to understand that there is a quickly
growing sentiment among quite strong and articulate Theosophists that
it has *stepped over the line*.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 12:35:26 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
On 13 199512 K. Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> The more I contemplate the by-laws imbroglio for that is what
> it appears to be becoming the more it seems to boil down to a
> basic lack of trust on the part of the members toward Wheaton
> and Adyar.
MKR
Glad you took time to analyze and post the msg.
>
> On a personal basis I have enjoyed visiting Wheaton have met > most
board members and feel a general trust that they and the > staff there
have Theosophy's best interests at heart. Yet the > Bing episode and some
previous power-struggle things I've heard > about make me feel that 01
some people are trying to control > things in underhanded ways and 02
their motives are mysterious > and perhaps not benevolent. This is
admittedly a suspicious > mood rather than a well-founded conclusion. > >
When we look at Adyar and the various section expulsions the > same sense
of distrust is engendered. One doesn't know exactly > who is trying to
control what there's little information on > what has occurred but in
the absence of information one can > only speculate. > > The best cure I
can imagine for this kind of generalized > distrust is a completely open
discussion of the issues > involved. Until the membership knows exactly
what went on in > Boston Canada Yugoslavia Denmark we are not likely
to be > receptive to the message from higher up that "we need more >
control over you for your own good." What's really at stake? > Who's
really concerned about it? >
MKR
As you have had opportunity to personally meet the most of the
Board members of TSA have you had an opportunity to communicate with
them either on telephone or in writing regarding the bylaws? If you did
can you let us know what feedback you have received. If you have not
have you considered contacting them and get feedback. This would
interest all of us.
> I hope that if the controversial amendments are defeated that
> there will be more time for discussion and a more open forum
> for it than we have had in the past.
>
> When years ago I described the way the ULT operates to my
> brother anonymity secret officers no by-laws etc. he said
> "Oh that's a cryptocracy." Meaning an organization in which
> the government is secret. Even though the Adyar TS has all the
> paraphernalia of a democracy there are still ways that it's
> cryptocratic due to the ES and other factors. I sense in the
> unease expressed here about the by-laws a deeper unease about
> the very nature of Theosophical democracy and a sense that
> cryptocracy lurks beneath its surface. Restoration of trust
> requires first of all a sense that there is real meaning to our
> democratic institutions and that they aren't just window
> dressing for cryptocracy. The suggestion of postponing the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> vote may not be feasible but it would help make people feel
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> better about the genuineness of the democratic process.
>
MKR
The board can always find a way to postpone the implementation of
the bylaws even if they are passed. So it all depends how the board views
the situation and what it wants to do.
As I see it we need better and more effective communication
between Wheaton and members. This would go a long way in helping a lot of
things to go smoothly.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 14:37:49 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: Saraydarian
>JHE
> He lives in Sedona Arizona now and has about 35 books to his
>credit which he primarily distributes himself:
> Depending upon how you use the word "theosophist" I'm not
>sure if it is an appropriate label for Torkom Saraydarian.
>He is
>the head of his own organization that is much more closely
>related to the Arcane School pedigree than to the Theosophical
>Society. On the other hand I consider AAB teachings to be
>represent another school of theosophy. But the Arcane School
>the Aquarian Educational Group and the Theosophical Society are
>very separate organizations. In one sense I would only use the
>term "theosophist" to apply to those very rare people who live a
>life of pure altruism--such as perhaps Mother Theresa. In the
>other hand for the word "theosophist" in context to an
>organization I would only apply it to members of the
>Theosophical Organizations. For instance CWL would be "a
>theosophist" but AAB would not be after 1918 when she left the
>TS to start her own organization. In this usage of the word I
>prefer the term "student of theosophy."
Thanks for the info you too Sy.
Of course I'm not sure as well whether to call him a theosophist.
For me what makes a true theosophist is indeed the amount of
pure altruism combined with the studying and practicing of
that tradition of Ageless Wisdom teachings. Where this tradition
starts or ends is not for me to tell.
Perhaps 'student of theosophy' is safer to use because it implies
more of a humbleness of the person involved.
Mmm it almost sounds hierarchical...
theosopher > theosophist > student of theosophy ;-
> I used to invite Saraydarian to speak on the Secret Doctrine
>at the Los Angeles Branch. I remember not agreeing with many of
>his interpretations But I never included or excluded speakers
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>based upon my opinion of their point of view yet they were
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>obviously well thought out and were based upon AAB's
>interpretations of the SD.
That's the spirit!
BTW a nice WWW-site also covering more of this 'neo-theosophy' I found at:
http://www.primenet.com/~wtmtn/index.html.
/* Peter */
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 15:50:43 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
On 13 199512 Richtay@aol.com wrote:
>
> If there is ANY need for "control" from the top of the T.S. then we have a
> problem. The way to lead IMHO is not by force or legal proceedings but by
> excellent and persuasive example and moral worth.
Yes.
> So if Wheaton or Adyar want others to conform to their wishes if they feel
> a need to lead and direct the Theosophical Movement then let them lead by
> example by argument by persuasion and by demonstration that such-and-such
> works.
Yes!
> But let there be no high-handedness manipulation slander or force. This
> is not only unbrotherly but hinders individuals from growing into their own
> Buddhic consciousness which is the personal ability to discriminate wrong
> and right and to approach one's own personal ULTIMATE AUTHORITY -- the Self.
YES!
> How can another dictate to us how that can be accomplished? Suggestion only
> never force.
*YES*!
> Rich
Upon much we have great differences Rich but you frame the heart of the
orginizational matter here IMO. TSA HQ I think would have no need to
resort to political and bureaucatic methods of control if the moral force
it generated established an appropriate tone throughout the Society. It
faces now a crisis of legitimacy brought about by its own behaviour ...
behaviour often selfish rather than altruistic concerned with protecting
turf rather than the growth of Theosophy overly secretive about not
occult secrets but about its *finances* ... doing a *major* revision of
its Bylaws and keeping it hidden until almost the last moment -
but all this really is secondary to a more primary level: If HQ
Board Members and Officers saw themselves as *facilitators of a large
family of spiritual equals - whose respect had to be earned who it is an
honor to serve and whose voices were to be *genuinely* listened to*
much of the ridiculous politicing would be renedered unnecessary. Instead
the attitude towards the membership seems to be that of people who
believe they stand above the members they serve who actually operate as
though the membership *cannot be trusted* with information with money
or even to freely *vote* do not all the restrictions being placed on who
can run for board & officer positions implicitly state that the
membership can't be trusted not to elect completely unsuitable people?.
William Blake I think somewhere described the spiritual world as
"a democracy of kings" - and this I believe is the attitude with which
to serve as a board member or officer of a spiritual organization: as
though every member were *royalty* ... fully capable of governing their
personal kingdoms but still willing to listen to those who would
facilitate the communications between themselves and others - but *not*
willing to listen to those who approach them with the attitude that they
are *serfs* being "permitted" a certain degree of freedom so long as they
operate within parameters imposed from above but who are also expected
to simply accept that they need rules and regulations to keep them from
making bad choices and hurting themselves and their organization.
IMO the *last* Theosophist who possessed the spiritual and moral
force to get away with behaving as HQ is now behaving was HPB - and she
never behaved that way.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 16:48:30 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: He/She/It
Ann you're kidding right?
> [My husband]
> grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
> today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when
he is
> at the sink elbow deep in suds. It's an awful thing to make a man a sex
> object don't you think?
>
> - ann
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 16:53:54 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
Sy Ginsburg wrote
> From what I found out subsequently
> it does appear that the [legal fees] figure is closer to $270000. I don't
know about
> $400000 that Rich Taylor indicates but if Rich was treasurer and on the
> inside perhaps his figure is correct.
I was actually secretary not treasurer and to be honest my figures are from
what I heard at board meetings not from the books. I'm sure Sy's numbers
are more accurate. I never took the time to learn all the gruesome financial
details.
Sy also wrote
> our national
> directors engaged in activities which dissipated large amounts of
Theosophical
> assets in addition to losing the 60+ members of the Boston Lodge. .
Well this is a bit of legerdemain on the part of the Besant Lodge. I DO
happen to know for a fact that of the 85 members on the Boston Lodge's roster
BEFORE the split only about 15 of them were active and after the split
about 12. During the election the year I was there only one office out of 06
was contested. Every other office had one candidate and so of course they
took office again. So really Wheaton has lost a handful of active members
and a nice padded membership-list. I agree with Sy GInsburg however that the
money combined BEFORE the lawsuit could have bought a prominent building in
Harvard Square etc. which would have attracted a great deal of attention.
Very sad.
Also
> How many of our Lodges have people clamoring to study the Secret
Doctrine?
I know of a lot of places actually not to be difficult about it Sy is
right the book is hard. But very often new students are very very anxious
to tackle "the big book" and we in San Franscisco U.L.T. have about 10 new
students that came in this year who CANNOT wait for the group to begin this
Feb. I think it comes from a their inner drive and b what they were
"raised" on the past year namely HPB's easier stuff that drops tons of
hints.
Sy writes
> If we start telling Lodges what they can and cannot study the membership
will
> only continue to shrink. Look at our Society 4200 members and declining
year
> by year.
I quite agree that we should not FORCE lodges or people to study anything
they don't want to. But we as "old-timers" set the tone and when people
come into the lodge they quickly get the gist of what the focus is. In my
opinion Wheaton's number drop is not mainly because of authoritarianism
though it is cool to say so but because they are trying the make Theosophy
jive with "New Age" when in fact New Age grew out of Neo-Theosophy. I
personally if anyone cares would rather have a very small serious
dedicated group of students who wish to learn original Theosophy and THEN
possibly branch out rather than a large scattered unfocussed and confused
body with a kind of half-hearted interest in what the Masters taught as
"Theosophy."
I do not think bringing the lawsuit was wise nor do I believe in slandering
the motives of "Neo-Theosophists" but I do want to speak up for Theosophy as
it was originally presented before we unenlightened humans took over with
our political battles Judge and Besant and our vain hopes Krishnamurti
and high-handedness expelling the German section etc. and fragmentation
over 20 separate Theosophical groups in the 1920s. If Theosophy is
declining in the world I fear it's because we as custodians have not really
done our job not taught Theosophy not held true to our program which
anyone can read in the letter of the Mahachohan to HPB.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 17:02:56 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: by-law vote
>From: MK Ramadoss
>Subject: Re: by-law vote
>>Dear Gerda Thompson
>>
>>I think you've got a real good idea. Instead of railroading these
>>by-laws through now in such a short time there should be more time to
>discuss them & we
>>could vote on them lateron.
>>
>>Liesel
>>Member Theosophy International
>>Member Human Race
>>
>
> do your really think anyone out there is thinking about thinking
>thru this whole issue of railroading. their single thought at least to me
>is how quickly we can get this thru and implement all that the new bylaws
>empowers them to do.
>
> ..doss
>
>I asked John Algeo whether he couldn't postpone the voting so we
>could talk this thing over a little better & he said
>that the Board would have to do it.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
Glad you talked to John Algeo. Hope he brings this issue to the Board of
Directors and recommends that it is a good idea to postpone the whole thing.
I am sure the Board will go along.
...doss
Na nobody's going to go along.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 17:23:24 GMT
From: Aprioripa@aol.com
Subject: RE: Saraydarian
>> I used to invite Saraydarian to speak on the Secret Doctrine
>>at the Los Angeles Branch. I remember not agreeing with many of
>>his interpretations But I never included or excluded speakers
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>based upon my opinion of their point of view yet they were
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>obviously well thought out and were based upon AAB's
>>interpretations of the SD.
>
>That's the spirit!
Hmm I've read the A. Bailey books thoroughly some several times and I
found Sarsaydarian's books to be very different in terms of the relation of
teacher to student and on the subject of sex. I spent about a year there in
Sedona some years back going to the A.E.G. meetings and found the actual
activities and practices many behind the scenes there to be very different
from the principles taught by Bailey and Blavatsky. I informed the Guru
T.Saraydarian and others there of my views on this but to no avail. Se la
vi.
Peace & Light
Patrick
Holistic - http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/maininfo.html
Esoteric - http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/esopsych.html
Auras - http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/auras.html
Meditation - http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/service.html
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 17:42:58 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Alan:
>the "name" of God is given as YHWH or Yahweh or in HPB's time
>Jehovah. This name is a variant form of the Hebrew verb "to be" and
>intelligently understood hence such phrases as "whoever has
>ears to hear" represents insofar as human awareness is
>capable of knowing what it means the fact of eternal being or
>being-ness *as such*.
That's great news to me. I wonder if this is being shared from the pulpit?
>To put it another way we as monads are part of the All.
I agree with this. Yoga is my tool. meditation gives you the insight to
the above statement.
Anne
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 17:59:32 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
Regarding the whole TSA amendments discussion --
I am reminded of a comment from a Mahatma we are told regarding the T.S.
last century and what would become of the T.S. if it were not "a school of
occultism." This Mahatma said that what was needed was not occultism but
brotherhood and to "let the Theosophical Society flourish on its moral worth
alone."
If there is ANY need for "control" from the top of the T.S. then we have a
problem. The way to lead IMHO is not by force or legal proceedings but by
excellent and persuasive example and moral worth. Madame Blavatsky NEVER
forced her ideas upon any one but merely offered her books among the
plethora of other books being written -- many of which other books she had
good things to say despite their shortcomings. William Q. Judge also added
"Theosophy is for those who want it none others."
So if Wheaton or Adyar want others to conform to their wishes if they feel
a need to lead and direct the Theosophical Movement then let them lead by
example by argument by persuasion and by demonstration that such-and-such
works.
But let there be no high-handedness manipulation slander or force. This
is not only unbrotherly but hinders individuals from growing into their own
Buddhic consciousness which is the personal ability to discriminate wrong
and right and to approach one's own personal ULTIMATE AUTHORITY -- the Self.
How can another dictate to us how that can be accomplished? Suggestion only
never force.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 18:43:50 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
On 14 199512 John R Crocker wrote:
> On 13 199512 Richtay@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > If there is ANY need for "control" from the top of the T.S. then we have a
> > problem. The way to lead IMHO is not by force or legal proceedings but
> > by excellent and persuasive example and moral worth.
>
> Yes.
>
> > So if Wheaton or Adyar want others to conform to their wishes if they
> > feel a need to lead and direct the Theosophical Movement then let them
> > lead by example by argument by persuasion and by demonstration that
> > such-and-such works.
>
> Yes!
>
> > But let there be no high-handedness manipulation slander or force. This
> > is not only unbrotherly but hinders individuals from growing into their
> > own Buddhic consciousness which is the personal ability to discriminate
> > wrong and right and to approach one's own personal ULTIMATE AUTHORITY --
> > the Self.
>
> YES!
>
> > How can another dictate to us how that can be accomplished? Suggestion
> > only never force.
>
> *YES*!
> > Rich
>
> Upon much we have great differences Rich but you frame the heart of the
> orginizational matter here IMO. TSA HQ I think would have no need to
> resort to political and bureaucatic methods of control if the moral force
> it generated established an appropriate tone throughout the Society. It
> faces now a crisis of legitimacy brought about by its own behaviour ...
> behaviour often selfish rather than altruistic concerned with protecting
> turf rather than the growth of Theosophy overly secretive about not
> occult secrets but about its *finances* ... doing a *major* revision of
> its Bylaws and keeping it hidden until almost the last moment -
> but all this really is secondary to a more primary level: If HQ
> Board Members and Officers saw themselves as *facilitators of a large
> family of spiritual equals - whose respect had to be earned who it is an
> honor to serve and whose voices were to be *genuinely* listened to*
> much of the ridiculous politicing would be renedered unnecessary. Instead
> the attitude towards the membership seems to be that of people who
> believe they stand above the members they serve who actually operate as
> though the membership *cannot be trusted* with information with money
> or even to freely *vote* do not all the restrictions being placed on who
> can run for board & officer positions implicitly state that the
> membership can't be trusted not to elect completely unsuitable people?.
> William Blake I think somewhere described the spiritual world as
> "a democracy of kings" - and this I believe is the attitude with which
> to serve as a board member or officer of a spiritual organization: as
> though every member were *royalty* ... fully capable of governing their
> personal kingdoms but still willing to listen to those who would
> facilitate the communications between themselves and others - but *not*
> willing to listen to those who approach them with the attitude that they
> are *serfs* being "permitted" a certain degree of freedom so long as they
> operate within parameters imposed from above but who are also expected
> to simply accept that they need rules and regulations to keep them from
> making bad choices and hurting themselves and their organization.
> IMO the *last* Theosophist who possessed the spiritual and moral
> force to get away with behaving as HQ is now behaving was HPB - and she
> never behaved that way.
> -JRC
>
MKR
JRC has summed up the fundamental problems we have in TSA today.
Before it is too late if the Board moves swiftly and openly and
convincingly comes out and states where they are headed and also open up
the financial and other books and records and promptly respond to
inquiries about administrative and financial and policy matters the
situation can be turned around. To allow matters to continue in the
current mode and justifying them on legality or any other excuse is not
going to help. I hope someone in TSA HQ makes copies of the various
messages posted here and distributes them to the Board Members and also
International President so that everyone get a good feedback from the field.
..doss
"One can only take the horse to the water but not make it drink."
Anon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 18:53:45 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Internet Theosophy Mail lists
--=====================_818931393==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Theosophical Society in America
Information Department and
Membership Department
I had sent you a msg which contained information on the Theosophy Mail Lists
which you may consider printing copies of and making them available to
inquirers along with other introductory Theosophy Material. There was a
minor typo which has been corrected. Thanks to John E Mead for locating the
typo and letting me know.
Attached is the revised information which may be copied and distributed.
How to Subscribe to the Theosophy mail lists on Internet. Rev 12/95
The five Theosophy lists are:
THEOS-L - General Theosophy discussions. This is the main
list.
THEOS-BUDS - Discussing the future of the TS.
THEOS-ROOTS - Discussing the history and historical literature of the TS.
THEOS-NEWS - For posting news and announcements about
Theosophical events and activities.
THEOS-SPAN - For the benefit of Spanish Speaking members.
How to log on get on the Theosophy lists.
Send an e-mail message to the following address.
LISTSERV@VNET.NET
In the body of the message type just this line:
subscribe
If you have any questions please feel free to write to me by
e-mail at:
> From Internet 726621335@compuserve.com
> From Compuserve 726621335
Don DeGracia
Posted by ramadoss@eden.com. If you have any questions
please send a msg by e-mail to
ramadoss@eden.com
The person who coordinates the above lists is John E Mead.
If you have any questions please send e-mail to John at
jem@vnet.net
Please print this message and distribute copies to your
lodge branch or study center or anyone else who may be
interested. Participation and exchange of views ideas
comments by more individuals who are interested in Theosophy
whether they be members or not of any Theosophy group is
what is going to make these mail list very useful and
helpful to everybody.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 19:42:59 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
>Bee:
>
>>I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
>
>I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
>theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
>Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
>including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
>can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
>working full time on the project.
>
>-- Eldon
>
Many thanks. I will keep my ears open for any likely outcome. It sounds neat
and would be nice to have.>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 19:53:08 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>>Some responses to Eldon's posting:
>>
>>>
>> I do not believe that such a "being" exists. Our
>>world was brought about by a countless host of beings all
>>acting through karmic laws of causation and just a little
>>chaos to liven things up.
>
>Could this "host" be another's understanding that you believe in such a
>"being"? May-be God is and/or isn't a being. It's all OK isn't it?
>Because one person's conception can be the same as another's yet the
>language used to define it different. Myths teach us that. To me "God"
>is everywhere and manifests itself in love and energyprana. That can make
>"God" no thing. But then again God's beingness can be the grasping
>projections that help some in advancement and bring personification for
>another level of relationship. The Hindu gods are great examples of that.
>It's at that level in representation that it is important to not forget
>both masculine and feminine aspects or an imbalance can be created that has
>great social implications.
>
I have read that the Christian God equates to our Solar Logos who is sort of
responsible for this solar system and who in turns sort of answers to a
higher Logos still until it all reaches the orignal 07 creative principles
breathes out by All That Is. The whole show is maintained by trillions of
beings of all grades of spirituality. Much better than one very important
personification of the Ultimate. >
> >
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 21:02:03 GMT
From: theos
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM fwd
Doss
As per Eldon's posting below we are in close contact with the Philippines
etc. and the TSA is in the process of preparing materials for this purpose
and we will announce it when it is ready.
Ruben - theos@netcom.com
On 13 199512 M K Ramadoss wrote:
>
> Date: 13 199512 091152 -0600
> From: M K Ramadoss
> To: theos@netcom.com
> Cc: "m.k. ramadoss"
> Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM fwd
>
> Theosophical Society in America:
>
> If you have any information on the following as well as the availability
> of any other CD Rom as well as any other project currently in process
> that you are aware of can you please post a msg here for my benefit as
> well as other Theosophists.
>
> Thanks
>
> M K Ramadoss - ramadoss@eden.com
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 13 199512 094240 -0500
> From: Eldon B. Tucker
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
>
> Bee:
>
> >I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
>
> I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
> theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
> Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
> including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
> can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
> working full time on the project.
>
> -- Eldon
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 21:37:09 GMT
From: "Murray Stentiford Scientific Software and Systems Ltd"
Subject: TI
YES to the latest proposal.
Murray Stentiford
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 21:45:32 GMT
From: theos
Subject: Re: Internet Theosophy Mail lists
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
--=====================_818931393==_
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Doss
Thanks I will forward this to the Departments concerned.
Ruben theos@netcom.com
On 14 199512 MK Ramadoss wrote:
> To: Theosophical Society in America
> Information Department and
> Membership Department
>
> I had sent you a msg which contained information on the Theosophy Mail Lists
> which you may consider printing copies of and making them available to
> inquirers along with other introductory Theosophy Material. There was a
> minor typo which has been corrected. Thanks to John E Mead for locating the
> typo and letting me know.
How to Subscribe to the Theosophy mail lists on Internet. Rev 12/95
The five Theosophy lists are:
THEOS-L - General Theosophy discussions. This is the main
list.
THEOS-BUDS - Discussing the future of the TS.
THEOS-ROOTS - Discussing the history and historical literature of the TS.
THEOS-NEWS - For posting news and announcements about
Theosophical events and activities.
THEOS-SPAN - For the benefit of Spanish Speaking members.
How to log on get on the Theosophy lists.
Send an e-mail message to the following address.
LISTSERV@VNET.NET
In the body of the message type just this line:
subscribe
If you have any questions please feel free to write to me by
e-mail at:
> From Internet 726621335@compuserve.com
> From Compuserve 726621335
Don DeGracia
Posted by ramadoss@eden.com. If you have any questions
please send a msg by e-mail to
ramadoss@eden.com
The person who coordinates the above lists is John E Mead.
If you have any questions please send e-mail to John at
jem@vnet.net
Please print this message and distribute copies to your
lodge branch or study center or anyone else who may be
interested. Participation and exchange of views ideas
comments by more individuals who are interested in Theosophy
whether they be members or not of any Theosophy group is
what is going to make these mail list very useful and
helpful to everybody.
---------------------end of message--------------------------
--=====================_818931393==_--
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 22:14:14 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Lighthearted fun
> writes:
> >
> >> A little lighthearted kidding is welcome.
> >> Bee Brown
> >
> >To Bee: A little lighthearted kidding. :-
> >
> >
> >
> >Alan
> >
> Gee thanks. You could have used .zip as they tramped all over my hard disc
> and set up error messages.:-D >
> Bee Brown
Oh but we do enjoy ourselves here!
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 22:23:40 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Serving ...
Sy: Adapting your posting:
> In my view Wheaton [and all National Section Headquarters]
must be the servant of the Lodges and Study Centers if they are
people who genuinely want to serve Theosophy and not try to be
the masters of those Lodges and Study Centers and I believe
this also should apply to Adyar on the international level.
There appears to be something very wrong there also.
My ideal would be to see National Section HQs as co-ordinating a
network of lodges or branches each of which would run its own
affairs in its own preferred way and in the case of the Adyar
TS to which I belong in line with the three objects
preferably TI flavored :-}. Lodges or branches would also
have to be self-sufficient owning or renting their own property
on behalf of their own local members as non-profit making
organizations in law which would require all assets to be
passed to a similar organisation in the event of dissolution.
This should make control from the top impossible.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 23:16:48 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>
> >> The current
> >movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
> >to be more like men. This has already resulted in sever
> >psychological damage to many women and some men.
> >
> >
> > Jerry S.
> > Member Theosophy international
> >
> >I am sorry I haven't finished. Another thing I wanted to mention was
> about this last statement. I have heard this from some men and non-feminist
> women before and I don't agree. I hate to be labeled a feminist just
> because I do what I want and I don't let my gender be an issue unless it is
> walking down the street at midnight. If being "like a man" means not
> putting up with being forced to mindlessly obey to cook and clean against
> your will to abstain from developing your intellectual and creative
> abilities stay home and not work and develop the abibilities associalted
> with that to be paid less for the same work to work twice as hard to get
> the same recognition than OK. If Being free to create and BE means that one
> is imitating men-then what's wrong with it? A man is not those things any
> more than a woman. If Nietshze and Plato great philosophers thought women
> not more intelligent or able than mere animalstheir words not mine then
> WOW!!!SOCIETY!!!not gender
LOUD APPLAUSE! - Without distinction of sex creed etc. etc.
Alan OUI indeed!
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 13 Dec 1996 23:46:02 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
Rich:
>Regarding the whole TSA amendments discussion --
>If there is ANY need for "control" from the top of the T.S. then
>we have a problem.
This discussion on the asssertion of greater control over lodges by
Wheaton makes me think about something that happened in the recent
past. I'm not sure exactly which year but it was not too many years
ago.
It used to be that a number of members could apply for a charter
and form a Study Center or Lodge. Now the groups are probationary
and must demonstrate some attempt to study Theosophy in order to
become regular groups. If I and a few people in Los Angeles with
perhaps a 10-to-20 years average in theosophical studies were to
apply to form a group we'd be in the same probationary status as
any other group. This represents another attempt to control the
studies and direction of groups.
The intent of this policy may be good to insure that entirely
new people have some guidance when they first get together to study
Theosophy. But it is still a form of centralized control.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 02:23:52 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: CD Roms
Here is the reply from my friend. I didn't get it quite right.
Well when I visited London the first time about a year ago they had
a couple of 286 computers at the headquarters. Everyone there were
very much from the old guard. Not exactly very welcoming. I think
they get people all the time. I visited again a few months ago. This
time they employed a young computer programmer a Serbian refugee to
upgrade their system. He is very much a Theosophist has written a
small book and was very interesting like talking to Krishnamurti. He
has had an experience of expanded consciousness quite interesting
but that is another story in fact it happened to him while reading a
book in the T.S. library written from a different level of
consciousness. ANyway it is his intention to write on basic
theosophy to put onto the network. I think if I achieved anything
thereit may have been to convince the General Secretary how
important it is to have this information accessible on the net. No
point having lots of money in the bank and ancient equipment. I must
say that England is still very behind compared to the rest of Europe
as far as scientific equipment etc. is concerned.
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 03:39:01 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM fwd
Thanks for the information. I am eagerly awaiting the news. Hope the CD
Roms are priced within my reach.
..doss
On 14 199512 theos wrote:
> Doss
>
> As per Eldon's posting below we are in close contact with the Philippines
> etc. and the TSA is in the process of preparing materials for this purpose
> and we will announce it when it is ready.
>
> Ruben - theos@netcom.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 13 199512 M K Ramadoss wrote:
>
> >
> > Date: 13 199512 091152 -0600
> > From: M K Ramadoss
> > To: theos@netcom.com
> > Cc: "m.k. ramadoss"
> > Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM fwd
> >
> >
> > Theosophical Society in America:
> >
> >
> > If you have any information on the following as well as the availability
> > of any other CD Rom as well as any other project currently in process
> > that you are aware of can you please post a msg here for my benefit as
> > well as other Theosophists.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > M K Ramadoss - ramadoss@eden.com
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: 13 199512 094240 -0500
> > From: Eldon B. Tucker
> > To: Multiple recipients of list
> > Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy theosophical CD-ROM
> >
> > Bee:
> >
> > >I think it was a C D that was being prepared at the London Lodge.>
> >
> > I believe that Vic Hao Chin in the Phillippines is working on a
> > theosophical CD ROM. He has "The Secret Doctrine" done work on "Isis
> > Unveiled" is underway and there are many more books possible
> > including the Collected Writings of HPB assuming proper permissions
> > can be obtained. I think I heard that he has a scanner and someone
> > working full time on the project.
> >
> > -- Eldon
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
M K Ramadoss - ramadoss@eden.com
4203 Gardendale Suite 226 San Antonio TX 78229-3137
Phone & Fax 210 615-7373
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 04:47:45 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
RI:
>Unless an individual corroborates these ideas theosophically mystically
>transcendentally for himself or herself the ideas--for all of their beauty
>and glory--are merely potential "contaminants" for the formation of egoic
>delusions at either the desire-mental or mental levels of consciousness.
We seem to be talking about what might be two classes of ideas. The first
is about mystical things related to what is not visible and tangible in
our material world. These things are invisible to our eyes basically
independent of the ordinary and known laws of nature and not directly
experiencable with our physical and psychical senses.
The second class of ideas deals with things that are subject to ordinary
physical processes and exist in our world or perhaps the astral light.
They have ordinary traits. We can learn about them and their attributes.
And they are real in the same sense as an orange on a tree in someone's
backyard.
The first kind of idea may need some theosophical validation. The second
kind of idea deals with things that could be considered as scientific
knowledge and not need some special insight before they can be believed.
I would put the idea of the Masters in the second category as real
living beings and not as an arbitrary mystical insight dealing with
something that is basically unknowable.
I don't need an ego identifiction with the idea that there's a country
called "France" in order to believe that it exists. I can take the word
of geographers and map makers.
>Few individuals who believe in the continuing existence of the Mahatmas seem
>to testify that such a belief is an unpleasant or merely neutral thing for
>them; therefore one might guess that it is "pleasant" or egoically "useful"
>to them in some way.
But an idea does not have to be either pleasant or unpleasant. It can
simply make sense be reasonable and be the best idea to explain a
particular area of life.
>Possibly *ditto* for *Parabrahm* *planes* *unity*
>etc.--however there is a much better chance that these are actually
>individual theosophical insights since they are some of the first things
>which authenticate themselves by means of meditative practice.
These are things that are less likely to find physical validation.
The idea of planes is validated if one accepts that dreams happen in
the astral. The idea of unity can be experienced. If "Parabrahm" is
correctly understood it can be a useful description of the final stage
of unification with the rest of life.
The idea of planes can be experimentally verified. That of Parabrahm
and unity are states of consciousness that can be experienced but not
externally observed.
>*Private* is really the thing I was hoping you would address. In this
>instance I mean it in the sense of being "closed" or "restricted to the
>individual."
Then this is talking about the type of ideas based upon states of
consciousness or inner experience rather than the external observation
of nature and living things.
>Assuming for the discussion that the fact of living Mahatmas
>has *not* been validated theosophically by a person what could be another
>basis for "believing" in Them?
I'd put the idea of the Mahatmas as one subject to external verification
as something that exists in the world. A Mahatma is as real as a taxi driver.
A Mahatma is not only known through mystical insight like a Tibetan deity.
>Is there any or is it merely a closed pleasant private predilection
>of merely idiopathic importance.
Time for the dictionary American Heritage idiopathic =
AHD> designating a disease having no known cause
I wonder if this is an editorial comment on the theosophical Teachings?
At what level of validation does one of the Teachings need to be internally
validated before it is an honest truth something worthy of sharing with
others rather than being personal delusion that merely sickens the person?
>If it is just the latter certainly the "Chain of Authority" we were
>talking about seems a little slight . . . and to use it perhaps a
>little arrogant.
Perhaps your distinction is between ideas that we've heard and merely
parrot without genuine understanding and ideas that we've really made
our own which are significant to us which play an important role in
explaining the way that life works?
>Would you be willing step up to the plate theosophically? That is
>would you be willing to go on record and say that you have an inner
>certainty about the continuing existence of the Mahatmas and that it
>has come as the natural result of your meditative practice or that
>it has developed in you in some other theosophical/mystical/
>transcendental way? I would accept such a statement without challenge.
I would say that I'm speaking from what seems genuine to me and not
simply materials that I recall having read in theosophical books.
I've had what I consider insights of my own which I have not specifically
read anywhere. I've found though that my ideas subsequently seem
consistent with what I read as I continue to study Theosophy. I find that
the ideas are inseparable with a dynamic process of change and growth
and creativity. I've also found that there are certain things that are
improper to put into words when they are in the formative stages since
the words may attempt to impose an inappropriate order and direction to
their outcome.
Regarding the Mahatmas though I don't think that their existence needs
to be controversial. They can be defined as being advanced humans beyond
the Arhat stage considering the Buddhist definition of Arhat and less
than the stage of either the Pratyeka Buddha or Bodhisattva. We may
disagree over their abilities and characteristics but their existence
itself does not need to be controversial. If we agree that the Buddha
existed then there is a scale of advancement between the common person
and him. The Mahatmas are humans at one point along this scale. Is there
anything wrong with that idea?
>On the other hand look what we have without it:
>"How do you know there are Mahatmas?"
>"Because H.P.B. tells us there are."
>"How do you know H.P.B. is reliable in this regard?"
>"Because H.P.B.'s knowledge was given to her by Mahatmas."
[at the point the circle repeats itself ...]
It's not really circular here. What we really have is that there are
dozens of key ideas in Theosophy and they're all interconnected.
Reincarnation karma spiritual evolution the Mahatmas the Path
the other planes of existence etc. -- there is a strong interdependence
among the ideas.
We accept the idea of the Masters regardless of HPB's having talked
about them. And we accept from having studied her materials her as
being a spokeswoman for them. She is not infallable and some of what
she writes could be mistaken. But she is considered authoritative in
the same sense as a instructor of chemistry is considered authoritative
while giving a college lecture in his field.
There is not a circle here because the Teachings stand with or without
HPB. The Teachings are accepted based upon their own intrinsic value
and not because HPB has been depicted as being infallible unquestionable
as a Pope speaking ex cathedra to the ignorant masses. The Teachings are
validated I think when they are *gone into* when they are taken at
a deeper level than the simple intellectual understanding of the passage
before us in reading a particular book. The Teachings are both I'd say
an accurate depiction of the visible and invisible worlds and at the
same time a door way through the thinking mind into *lucidity* or
*luminous mind*.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 05:02:16 GMT
From: theos
Subject: Practical Lessons/guidance & Thesosophy
Doss
Thanks for your information on the above topic. We have the following
waiver or rather consent form for that purpose:
=========================================================================
INFORMATION AND CONSENT FORM
Name................................................ Phone...............
Address..................................................................
City.................................. State...........Zip...............
Do you have any physical ailment which would limit your practice of hatha
Yoga?....................................................................
If yes explain:.........................................................
........................................................................
How long have you been practicing yoga?..................................
What is your reason for practicing yoga?.................................
We urge you to participate in each yoga position at your own comfort level
and to discontinue any position or session as you choose.
I hereby agree not to hold either the instructor or The Theosophical Society
in America responsible for any injury which is incurred during any class.
.................. ...............................................
Date Signature
=========================================================================
Happy Holidays!
Ruben
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 05:14:33 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
Rich:
>Ann you're kidding right?
>> [My husband]
>> grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
> >today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when
he is
> >at the sink elbow deep in suds. It's an awful thing to make a man a sex
> >object don't you think?
>
My not-so-subtle attempt to use humor to suggest that men and women are moving
towards a point where jobs and tasks will not be assigned by gender with little
damage to their mental/emotional state.
But consider this: A few years back I was down in Florida visiting my husband's
relatives for Thanksgiving. My sister-in-law divorced had the dinner at her
boyfriend's house. Not only did this guy have an in-ground pool a hot tub and
a screened porch with a bar but he did the dishes from Thanksgiving dinner.
You should have heard the female relatives swooning and sighing over the fact
that he was doing the dishes. Let me tell the way to a woman's heart is
through the dishpan.
- ann
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 05:22:08 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: England
>
> I must
> say that England is still very behind compared to the rest of Europe
> as far as scientific equipment etc. is concerned.
>
> Bee Brown
> Member Theosophy International
Oh how true how true :-
Mind you England is bot so well off financially as people
imagine. Times they is hard here.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 05:24:44 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: He/She/It
> Ann you're kidding right?
>
> > [My husband]
> > grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
> > today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when
> he is
> > at the sink elbow deep in suds. It's an awful thing to make a man a sex
> > object don't you think?
> >
> > - ann
I think she may be being a *liitle* sarcastic - switching the
stereotype around. Tee hee.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 05:26:47 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
> Alan:
> >the "name" of God is given as YHWH or Yahweh or in HPB's time
> >Jehovah. This name is a variant form of the Hebrew verb "to be" and
> >intelligently understood hence such phrases as "whoever has
> >ears to hear" represents insofar as human awareness is
> >capable of knowing what it means the fact of eternal being or
> >being-ness *as such*.
>
> That's great news to me. I wonder if this is being shared from the pulpit?
Not very likely - but the bishops and the college theologians
all know it. Hypocrisy and expediency hold their heads high as
always.
> >To put it another way we as monads are part of the All.
>
> I agree with this. Yoga is my tool. meditation gives you the insight to
> the above statement.
>
> Anne
A while back my Lodge had a debate-cum-discussion on
reincarnation. At the end we took a vote - around 66 percent
agreed that reincarnation was a fact. So - it must be as it
was decided by the democratic process .....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 05:40:13 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: TI
Add to list of members:
*John R. Crocker.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 06:07:56 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>FACT??????What dat????
>A while back my Lodge had a debate-cum-discussion on
>reincarnation. At the end we took a vote - around 66 percent
>agreed that reincarnation was a fact. So - it must be as it
>was decided by the democratic process .....
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 06:52:48 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: He/She/It
>Ann you're kidding right?
>
>> [My husband]
>> grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
>> today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when
>he is
>> at the sink elbow deep in suds. It's an awful thing to make a man a sex
>> object don't you think?
>>
>> - ann
>
>Hi Ann
I could get used to a man like that too. I might even let him use my
knitting machine. I reckon that a man who can iron his shirts without
putting creases in them is definitely worth cultivating. Haven't met one yet
but we live in hopes. Now if he was a theosophist handsome sensitive
home-handyman mechanic plays golf oh well just as well I like my own
companyeh!!!!
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 07:03:32 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Neo-theosophy
To all member of Theos-l:
Today I visited the web site of The White Mountain Education Association whose
address was posted by someone on our mailing list. It was referred to as
Neo-theosophy.
An amalgation of HPB Bailey Sarayadarian and Roerich it seemed to lean more
towards Bailey. I will leave each of you to review the page for yourself
http://www.primenet.com/~wtmtn/index.html but I will say this. While I was
scrolling through the material I got a clear view of it. It was "I've seen
this all before." It was like knowledge was being repackaged and being
distributed through another yet another organization. Good or bad idea?
-Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 07:36:59 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
In a message dated 95-12-13 172708 EST you write:
>When years ago I described the way the ULT operates to my
>brother anonymity secret officers no by-laws etc. he said
>"Oh that's a cryptocracy." Meaning an organization in which
>the government is secret.
There is a misconception about ULT stated here that needs to be cleared up.
The ULT is an Association of students. There is no legal entity called ULT
hence no officers bylaws government. Each Lodge and study group is
independent and autonomous and generally run by older students who assume
the responsibility for its functioning. The ULT is not a democracy but the
views and council of as many students as possible are taken into
consideration. This generally applies to convenient meeting times
administrative matters building maintainance etc. for the efficient
functioning of the group.
I try to think of the ULT as a combination of the concept of a Family and a
Bridge Club. Families are run by older figures who are given authority by
virtue of their position but opinions are sought. In a bridge club there
is no official organization but various members take responsibility for its
functioning. As the bridge club agrees that when they assemble they will
play bridge the ULT students agree that when they assemble they will study
HPB Judge and Crosbie.
The anonymity issue is merely an attempt to stick to ideas and teaching
rather than personalities. Therefore there are no "leaders" officially
recognized as such. When writing ULT students do not sign their name so
that the ideas come through and the reader is not biased by the personality
of the author. It is not a secret society where the governance is hidden
secret or mysterious in any way and certainly is not a "cryptocracy".
Actually the operation is very much like the new Theosophy International.
I would even say that this new organization seems to be modeled on ULT
except for the agreed upon course of study. The ULT Declaration states that
"It ULT is loyal to the Founders of the Theosophical Movement . . . "
Does the ULT have its share of politics? Of course it does--people are
involved. But the method of operation minimizes the unfortunate events which
plague the TS and divert its attention from its mission. Witness the current
"lengthy" discussion of political events on this List taking up time and
space better utilized by the discussion of the ideas and teaching of
Theosophy.
I propose all discussion of the TS's and any other organization's
politics by-laws officers internal squabbles gossip etc. be moved to a
separate board.
Does anyone else agree?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 09:10:32 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
Coherence writes:
>There is a misconception about ULT stated here that needs to be
>cleared up. The ULT is an Association of students. There is no
>legal entity called ULT hence no officers bylaws government.
>Each Lodge and study group is independent and autonomous and
>generally run by older students who assume the responsibility
>for its functioning. The ULT is not a democracy but the views
>and council of as many students as possible are taken into
>consideration. This generally applies to convenient meeting
>times administrative matters building maintenance etc. for
>the efficient functioning of the group.
>
>I try to think of the ULT as a combination of the concept of a
>Family and a Bridge Club. Families are run by older figures who
>are given authority by virtue of their position but opinions
>are sought. In a bridge club there is no official
>organization but various members take responsibility for its
>functioning. As the bridge club agrees that when they assemble
>they will play bridge the ULT students agree that when they
>assemble they will study HPB Judge and Crosbie.
This is about as fair of a description of how ULT works that
I have seen. I was active with the Los Angeles ULT for about
fifteen years until we moved out of the area but still in
contact with some of the associates. ULT is indeed more of a
federation of students than a formal organization but an inner
structure does indeed exist and downplaying the importance of
that structure is in MHO unrealistic. Decisions have to be made
concerning the upkeep of the building organizing of office help
paying the day to day expenses of telephones office machinery
postage etc. Though there are no officers for ULT there is a
board of directors for Theosophy Company which is a bonified
Organization responsible for the publications. They are also
responsible for the assets used by ULT associates and for the
production of ~Theosophy~ magazine. That board has a
chairperson who also has more than a little influence concerning
the organizations of classes and the scheduling of speakers.
Though ULT is founded upon some very high ideals weakness in
human nature requires that the implementation of these ideals
require some compromises by giving the Board and individuals some
responsibilities therefore powers that gives some justification
to Paul's observation of a "cryptocracy."
>The anonymity issue is merely an attempt to stick to ideas and
>teaching rather than personalities. Therefore there are no
>"leaders" officially recognized as such.
Yet everyone involved in ULT knows who these "leaders" are.
I remember when Joe Pope came to Los Angeles on a visit. He was
scheduled to speak at one of the night gatherings.
True to form an announcement of the topic was sent out but not
the speaker. It made no difference. The word got around that
Joe Pope would be speaking that night and he got a much larger
audience than what was usual.
>When writing ULT
>students do not sign their name so that the ideas come through
>and the reader is not biased by the personality of the author.
>It is not a secret society where the governance is hidden
>secret or mysterious in any way and certainly is not a
>"cryptocracy".
Yes and this is a real headache for us historians.
>Does the ULT have its share of politics? Of course it
>does--people are involved. But the method of operation
>minimizes the unfortunate events which plague the TS and divert
>its attention from its mission.
I would say that ULT has had its share of "politics" that
have diverted attention from its mission from time to time but
on the whole I must agree that ULT is structured in such a way
that more energy can be directed to the real work. In many ways
it is much more efficient and focused than Adyar.
>Witness the current "lengthy" discussion of political events on
>this List taking up time and space better utilized by the
>discussion of the ideas and teaching of Theosophy.
>
>I propose all discussion of the TS's and any other
>organization's politics by-laws officers internal squabbles
>gossip etc. be moved to a separate board.
>
>Does anyone else agree?
Because of the evident failure of the Adyar TS to keep its
membership properly informed and involved in decisions affecting
member's and Lodge's rights I think this electronic forum is a
godsend and may have the eventual effect of making a more
democratic organization out of it. Since this board is open to
all theosophical students regardless of affiliation or none I
can see the wisdom of putting the current discussion on a
separate Board. On the other hand if we create a new board
every time a subject of limited popularity arises we will soon
have our one forum fragmenting into more and more little ones.
Perhaps another and more productive way of looking at this
would be to allow the diversity of subjects to continue on this
forum. Though a ULT associate has no personal investment in
Adyar politics I think there is still much to be learned
concerning organizational dynamics that may help to create a
better Organizational structure that will be to everyone's
benefit.
Jerry HE
Member Theosophy International
Associate ULT
Member Theosophical Society Adyar
Member Theosophical Society Pasadena
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 09:12:53 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: Re RE Saraydarian
Patrick writes:
>Hmm I've read the A. Bailey books thoroughly some several
>times and I found Sarsaydarian's books to be very different in
>terms of the relation of teacher to student and on the subject
>of sex. I spent about a year there in Sedona some years back
>going to the A.E.G. meetings and found the actual activities and
>practices many behind the scenes there to be very different
>from the principles taught by Bailey and Blavatsky. I informed
>the Guru T.Saraydarian and others there of my views on this
>but to no avail. Se la vi.
No doubt you are right about this. I remember being told
much the same thing about Saraydarian when he was living in Agora
So. California. It appears that he has some real differences
with the Arcane School. But my knowledge of the AEG and the AS
is much more superficial than yours so my bases of judgement
concerning his ~Secret Doctrine~ lectures was that he held very
closely to major themes found in Bailey literature such as the
seven rays and his discussion of "the Logos" was very Bailey
like. I can hear a lecture on the ~Secret Doctrine~ or any
discussion on theosophy for that matter and tell you with
perfect accuracy whether the speaker comes from a training of AS
Adyar TS ULT or Pasadana TS. Each group has their pet themes
and phrases that are dead give-a-ways.
Jerry HE
International Theosophist
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 09:13:38 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: re re Trust Problem
Rich Taylor writes:
>But let there be no high-handedness manipulation slander or
>force. This is not only unbrotherly but hinders individuals
>from growing into their own Buddhic consciousness which is the
>personal ability to discriminate wrong and right and to
>approach one's own personal ULTIMATE AUTHORITY -- the Self.
It is too bad that Wheaton has had to resort to the mis-
representation of facts and sometimes to even slander in order
to maintain control of the Section. Only a few years ago it was
the bylaw changes that effectively prevented Bing Escudero from
running for President. Now Boston Lodge members are being
misrepresented as having stolen Lodge assets for their personal
use. We are faced with new bylaw changes that will destroy the
traditionally held autonomy of Lodges and make it easier to expel
members who disagree. More than ever I think that the salvation
of the TS depends upon the members exerting their will.
Jerry HE
International Theosophist
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 10:03:01 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>> The current
>> movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
>> to be more like men.
>>
>This is a pretty sweeping generalization Jerry - I don't see
>how you could reasonably substantiate it.
All statements made regarding people are gross
generalizations and there are always a lot of exceptions.
However I do a lot of reading including psychology and
there is a real problem today because a lot of women see
"equality" as being more masculine i.e. some requirements
to break through the "glass ceiling" are to devote your life to
the company store to show drive and ambition to be dominant
and agressive--all normally considered as masculine traits but
required in our corporate business world today. In the process
many women repress their own femininity and suffer for it.
Case in point would be the career woman who must renounce
her inner desires for children--balancing a career and
motherhood is a BIG problem in this country and there is no
real answer to it in sight. Good day care for example is hard to
find. Men on the other hand don't generally have this problem
of course some do widowers and so on. Anyway psychologists
are telling us that women should not have to renounce or repress
their femininty in order to have a career or own a business. My
wife used to own and run a computer store so I know that this
can be done--but it is not easy and some women have a hard
time with it. In fact my wife quit her store after 05 years largely
out of frustration and went back to being a foster parent. Why is
all of this true? Probably because we have a male-dominated
business/corporate world today. Its us men who have laid down
all the rules.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 10:42:25 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>As a theologian as well as a theosophian may I state: God is
>not a being and never was. In the Western version of the
>Ancient Wisdom found in the Bible Tanach and other writings
>the "name" of God is given as YHWH or Yahweh or in HPB's time
>Jehovah.
Thanks Alan. As usual you said it better and more succinctly
that I could.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 10:42:28 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ann on He/She/It
>My not-so-subtle attempt to use humor to suggest that men and women are moving
>towards a point where jobs and tasks will not be assigned by gender with
little
>damage to their mental/emotional state.
I was raised with the view that there was man's work and there was
woman's work. Women cooked and cleaned while men mowed the lawn
and made repairs etc. After I got married I learned of a whole new
way of doing business because my wife had not been raised that
way. She taught me to do dishes floors kids etc. When our first-
born boy was brought home from the hospital my wife was laid up
in bed and so I had to take care of him. We had never discussed
who would do diappers for example. But the circumstances left me
as the only one who could do it and so I did. By the time my wife
was up and walking around I was already used to it and so
continued to help her out with all of our children. I don't believe
that this made me any less of a man.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 10:42:31 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
>The intent of this policy may be good to insure that entirely
>new people have some guidance when they first get together to study
>Theosophy. But it is still a form of centralized control.
Perhaps events over the past have suggested to
headquaters that some form of centralized control is
needed?
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 10:55:13 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
>From: "K. Paul Johnson"
>Subject: Trust Problem
The more I contemplate the by-laws imbroglio for that is what
it appears to be becoming the more it seems to boil down to a
basic lack of trust on the part of the members toward Wheaton
and Adyar.
On a personal basis I have enjoyed visiting Wheaton have met
most board members and feel a general trust that they and the
staff there have Theosophy's best interests at heart. Yet the
Bing episode and some previous power-struggle things I've heard
about make me feel that 01 some people are trying to control
things in underhanded ways and 02 their motives are mysterious
and perhaps not benevolent. This is admittedly a suspicious
mood rather than a well-founded conclusion.
When we look at Adyar and the various section expulsions the
same sense of distrust is engendered. One doesn't know exactly
who is trying to control what there's little information on
what has occurred but in the absence of information one can
only speculate.
The best cure I can imagine for this kind of generalized
distrust is a completely open discussion of the issues
involved. Until the membership knows exactly what went on in
Boston Canada Yugoslavia Denmark we are not likely to be
receptive to the message from higher up that "we need more
control over you for your own good." What's really at stake?
Who's really concerned about it?
I hope that if the controversial amendments are defeated that
there will be more time for discussion and a more open forum
for it than we have had in the past.
When years ago I described the way the ULT operates to my
brother anonymity secret officers no by-laws etc. he said
"Oh that's a cryptocracy." Meaning an organization in which
the government is secret. Even though the Adyar TS has all the
paraphernalia of a democracy there are still ways that it's
cryptocratic due to the ES and other factors. I sense in the
unease expressed here about the by-laws a deeper unease about
the very nature of Theosophical democracy and a sense that
cryptocracy lurks beneath its surface. Restoration of trust
requires first of all a sense that there is real meaning to our
democratic institutions and that they aren't just window
dressing for cryptocracy. The suggestion of postponing the
vote may not be feasible but it would help make people feel
better about the genuineness of the democratic process.
Dear Paul
I think what you wrote is very well thought through & well put.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
x and Spirituality Star Trek
Tarot Tarot & Numerology Transmission Meditation Urantia. There is a lot
worthwhile in many of these studies and admittedly a lot that is not serious
but as T.S. people I think we should encourage ourselves and others to examine
them.
This is a method of outreach that we find works and I believe that if more
Lodges took this approach of openness membership would be growing nationwide
just as it is at the Miami Lodge and not declining.
Sy
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 10:57:08 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
Anne-
Good I thought you were serious that men shouldn't do housework. I thought
I "knew" you better than that.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 12:43:21 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Dangerous TSA Bylaw Changes Part 02
On 14 199512 Liesel F. Deutsch wrote:
> Hey guys
>
> You seem to exclude that a democratic organization can have a strong
> leader. I think an organization in which everyone knows the score &
> has valid opinions needs a stronger leader to guide it than one
> where the leader just has to get up & say "We're going to do such &
> such." & then everybody bows down low & says "Yassu!"
But what if that leader seeks to *control* instead of *guide* rather
significant difference between those two things methinks ... what if
that leader delibrately attempts to limit the ability of that strong
membership to *know* the score by refusing to provide requested
information about the organization ... what if that leader purposely
misrepresents events so as to achieve ends not fully disclosed?
I agree a democratic organization can have a strong leader but
in leadership to be strong does not mean to dominate.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 13:04:06 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
On 14 199512 Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:
>
> It is too bad that Wheaton has had to resort to the mis-
> representation of facts and sometimes to even slander in order
> to maintain control of the Section. Only a few years ago it was
> the bylaw changes that effectively prevented Bing Escudero from
> running for President. Now Boston Lodge members are being
> misrepresented as having stolen Lodge assets for their personal
> use. We are faced with new bylaw changes that will destroy the
> traditionally held autonomy of Lodges and make it easier to expel
> members who disagree. More than ever I think that the salvation
> of the TS depends upon the members exerting their will.
Yes. As distasteful as even thinking about this stuff is that fact that
the membership has been willing to accept increasingly unacceptable
behaviour has I believe lead some of those in the leadership to believe
they can now do virtually whatever they wish. We probably all want to pay
very little attention to political goings on but perhaps now and then it
is our responsibility - as a means of paying our debt to the founders
an indebtedness I believe most of us feel in some way or another - to
take care of the organization they began.
-JRC
PS. Jerry ... any suggestions as to what form the exertion of will ought
to take? I have been recently wrestling with this question and as you
have a greater grasp of the historical context I would very much
appreciate the broader perspective you might bring to the question.
Certainly crises of legitimacy - such as the one we are approaching - are
nothing new ... how might the current membership in your opinion
accomplish a Headquarters housecleaning without causing yet another schism?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 14:56:20 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Alice A. Bailey; tenets
>From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
>Subject: Alice A. Bailey; tenets
The writings of ALice A. Bailey AAB in shorthand make up an interesting
part of the overall body of theosophical publications IMO.
I don't believe there is any question about the books' basis in the
theosophy of HPB but there is certainly debate on nearly everything after
that point. As mentioned in an earlier post my introduction to AAB came
from a local TS group in Austin TX -- the first TS group I had ever met.
The following text is taken more or less verbatim from a pamphlet by the AAB
publishing group. I will attest to the accuracy of what is written here in
so far as matching the original published material -- I am interested to
know how the ideas fit or clash with "orthodox" theosophy as promoted by
the larger organizations. note: "new" is a relative term; some of the
"newer" ideas of Alice Bailey are commonplace now and we may discover that
the source as far as can be determined or inspriration may predate AAB.
It is *not* my intention to promote a debate or discussion regarding
materials which are not in public circulation from the ES archives or any
other such source.
Jim
The Tibetan Djwhal Khul has said that his work continues on the
foundations laid by Mdm. Blavatsky and the early teachers in the TS. He
gives us in some detail what he considers to be the "newer truths" and he
lists these seven ideas as
1 The teaching on Shamballa; the Spiritual Hierarchy of the earth and the
"center where the Will of God is known" including the nature of the will
aspect and the building of the conscious bridge between the personality and
the higher Self
2 The teaching on the New Discipleship including the changes resulting
from the new energies available as we transit into Aquarius and the
meditative techniques for the Aryan people
3 The teaching on the Seven Rays the conditioning energies or "Seven
Spirits before the Throne of God" emphasizing the psychology of the
consciousness of man and God
4 The teaching on the new astrology with the conditioning forces which
influence the soul and not the personality
5 Information about the New Group of World Servers as a group intermediate
between Hierarchy and humanity and determining the quality of the period in
which we live through the men and women of goodwill
6 The attempt to form an exoteric branch of the inner Ashram as detailed
in the two volumes of Discipleship in the New Age and
7 The teaching on the coming new world religion emphasizing the three
major festivals and nine lesser and of the meditations at the time of the
full moon. This establishes a relation between the work of the Buddha and
the Christ broadening human aspiration.
These are the essential teachings of the Tibetan. The Lucis Trust is the
organization responsible for the legal and financial affairs of the service
activities set up in conjunction with the Bailey teachings. There are a
number of parallels between the Lucis Trust and the TS; both organizations
have a wonderful and free lending library by mail both maintain a
correspondence course designed for training individuals in the methods of
occultism and meditation and both will absolutely fill your mailbox with
all kinds of interesting things just for asking.
In my opinion the Tibetan's teachings can be summed up as information about
*relationships* and the Laws and principles which govern them.
Hi Jim
I have a dozen questions on Alice Bailey's 07 "Newer truths" & I'm
hoping you can go into more detail about what she stands for..
1. Please explain to me what it's saying. It doesn't make sense to
me.
2. What "Aryan people" are we talking about and what are the new
meditative techniques? If there's a more efficient way of meditating
that'd sure be welcome.
3. I don't know what the 07 Rays have to do with the psychology of
the consciousness of man. That there's any psychology connected with
God is new to me. How does that figure? I thought psychology was all
on man's side.
4. I don't know astrology at all so I'll skip this one but if
you'd like to explain what "the new astrology" is others on this
list do use astrology.
5. What's "World Servers" & what's "Hierarchy"? It sounds to me like
the Catholic priesthood with its Pope at the head which you have to ask
to intervene for you. My meditation phone line goes straight to God
mostly to the God within & I'm not in favor of having to ask any
intermediaries although I may at times consult some.
6. I think I understand. It's making exoteric little by little that
which is now esoteric so that people can learn it & use it. Of that's
what it means I agree with the idea.
7. I can only guess at what is meant there. Establishing a relation
between the Christ & the Buddha is ok with me. It's there anyway
only most people don't realize it. About teaching a new world
religion that depends upon how dogmatic the teachings are or are
not. What are the festivals Bailey people celebrate? Are they at all
like the seasonal ones we all celebrate no matter what religion
like Christmas & Easter?
That's a lot of questions to keep you busy. Hope you can answer them.
Thanks
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:06:30 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Dangerous TSA Bylaw Changes Part 02
Hey guys
You seem to exclude that a democratic organization can have a strong
leader. I think an organization in which everyone knows the score &
has valid opinions needs a stronger leader to guide it than one
where the leader just has to get up & say "We're going to do such &
such." & then everybody bows down low & says "Yassu!"
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:19:44 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: He/She/It
>From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
>Subject: Re: He/She/It
>Ann you're kidding right?
>
>> [My husband]
>> grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
>> today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when
>he is
>> at the sink elbow deep in suds. It's an awful thing to make a man a sex
>> object don't you think?
>>
>> - ann
>
>Hi Ann
I could get used to a man like that too. I might even let him use my
knitting machine. I reckon that a man who can iron his shirts without
putting creases in them is definitely worth cultivating. Haven't met one yet
but we live in hopes. Now if he was a theosophist handsome sensitive
home-handyman mechanic plays golf oh well just as well I like my own
companyeh!!!!
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
Yeah Just as well I like my own company too. I think you forgot to mrention
money that's a good asset too.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:40:02 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:Trust problem
ET:
>It used to be that a number of members could apply for a charter
>and form a Study Center or Lodge. Now the groups are probationary
>and must demonstrate some attempt to study Theosophy in order to
>become regular groups. If I and a few people in Los Angeles with
>perhaps a 10-to-20 years average in theosophical studies were to
>apply to form a group we'd be in the same probationary status as
>any other group. This represents another attempt to control the
>studies and direction of groups.
My recent membership in new study group gave me access to info concerning this
question. Someone told me that some new groups were studying something other
than theosophy - let's say channeling or some other new age stuff. This is what
caused TS to tighten up on their rules. My group was on probationary status and
went through the introductory material. Having started with 25 we went down to
12 and continually lost membership through the months. The secretary also had
to take a signed count of people attending and give a written summary of what we
discussed. I imagine this would have all counted towards our official
recognition had the group stayed together.
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:44:38 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: TI
Alan
I'm in agreement with everything you propose.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:54:47 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
>>The intent of this policy may be good to insure that entirely
>>new people have some guidance when they first get together to study
>>Theosophy. But it is still a form of centralized control.
>
> Perhaps events over the past have suggested to
>headquarters that some form of centralized control is
>needed?
>
> Jerry S.
Perhaps events over the past have suggested to the membership that changes to
the bylaws should not be undertaken lightly? Just a thought.
Jim
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:02:13 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
>Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
>
> >> The current
> >movement toward "equality" is one in which women are trying
> >to be more like men. This has already resulted in sever
> >psychological damage to many women and some men.
> >
> >
> > Jerry S.
> > Member Theosophy international
> >
> >I am sorry I haven't finished. Another thing I wanted to mention was
> about this last statement. I have heard this from some men and non-feminist
> women before and I don't agree. I hate to be labeled a feminist just
> because I do what I want and I don't let my gender be an issue unless it is
> walking down the street at midnight. If being "like a man" means not
> putting up with being forced to mindlessly obey to cook and clean against
> your will to abstain from developing your intellectual and creative
> abilities stay home and not work and develop the abibilities associalted
> with that to be paid less for the same work to work twice as hard to get
> the same recognition than OK. If Being free to create and BE means that one
> is imitating men-then what's wrong with it? A man is not those things any
> more than a woman. If Nietshze and Plato great philosophers thought women
> not more intelligent or able than mere animalstheir words not mine then
> WOW!!!SOCIETY!!!not gender
LOUD APPLAUSE! - Without distinction of sex creed etc. etc.
Alan OUI indeed!
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
Don't blame good old Nietzsche. He was a product of his times during which
women were thought to have smaller brains. Ir was considered better
for women not to study the sciences & Math because it would be too
taxing on their child bearing capacities. etc. etc. everyone
including the women of the day really believed this.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:08:13 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: TI
Alan:
>
>We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
>others.***
>
Positive.
/* Peter */
Member Theosophy International.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:08:38 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
The idea that women need to be like men was the style about 10 20
years ago. feminists aren't striving for that so much anymore
because it is recognized now that women do have worthwhile qualities
which are different from men. One I cherish a lot is that we're said
to be less competitive.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:18:36 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
>From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Coherence:
> From observing the posts here it is becoming painfully clear that
>Theosophical Organizations are problematic and really need to be re-thought.
> Let me also state that I am not never have been and probably never will be
>a member of the or any T.S.
All human organizations are problematic. I learned this
from 30 years of working within a Government bureaucracy and in
earning my Masters of Science in Administration degree. This is
also something to keep in mind when we all talk about growth and
ways to increase our membership - the larger the organization the
more bureaucratic and unwieldy it becomes.
Jerry S.
Member Theosophy international
Well then maybe the answer is that if we get large & unwieldly we
break the whole thing down into small independent units loosely functioning
together.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:36:38 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
>From: Richtay@aol.com
>Subject: Re: By-Law Revision/Boston Lodge Sale
Sy Ginsburg wrote
> From what I found out subsequently
> it does appear that the [legal fees] figure is closer to $270000. I don't
know about
> $400000 that Rich Taylor indicates but if Rich was treasurer and on the
> inside perhaps his figure is correct.
I was actually secretary not treasurer and to be honest my figures are from
what I heard at board meetings not from the books. I'm sure Sy's numbers
are more accurate. I never took the time to learn all the gruesome financial
details.
Sy also wrote
> our national
> directors engaged in activities which dissipated large amounts of
Theosophical
> assets in addition to losing the 60+ members of the Boston Lodge. .
Well this is a bit of legerdemain on the part of the Besant Lodge. I DO
happen to know for a fact that of the 85 members on the Boston Lodge's roster
BEFORE the split only about 15 of them were active and after the split
about 12. During the election the year I was there only one office out of 06
was contested. Every other office had one candidate and so of course they
took office again. So really Wheaton has lost a handful of active members
and a nice padded membership-list. I agree with Sy GInsburg however that the
money combined BEFORE the lawsuit could have bought a prominent building in
Harvard Square etc. which would have attracted a great deal of attention.
Very sad.
Also
> How many of our Lodges have people clamoring to study the Secret
Doctrine?
I know of a lot of places actually not to be difficult about it Sy is
right the book is hard. But very often new students are very very anxious
to tackle "the big book" and we in San Franscisco U.L.T. have about 10 new
students that came in this year who CANNOT wait for the group to begin this
Feb. I think it comes from a their inner drive and b what they were
"raised" on the past year namely HPB's easier stuff that drops tons of
hints.
Sy writes
> If we start telling Lodges what they can and cannot study the membership
will
> only continue to shrink. Look at our Society 4200 members and declining
year
> by year.
I quite agree that we should not FORCE lodges or people to study anything
they don't want to. But we as "old-timers" set the tone and when people
come into the lodge they quickly get the gist of what the focus is. In my
opinion Wheaton's number drop is not mainly because of authoritarianism
though it is cool to say so but because they are trying the make Theosophy
jive with "New Age" when in fact New Age grew out of Neo-Theosophy. I
personally if anyone cares would rather have a very small serious
dedicated group of students who wish to learn original Theosophy and THEN
possibly branch out rather than a large scattered unfocussed and confused
body with a kind of half-hearted interest in what the Masters taught as
"Theosophy."
I do not think bringing the lawsuit was wise nor do I believe in slandering
the motives of "Neo-Theosophists" but I do want to speak up for Theosophy as
it was originally presented before we unenlightened humans took over with
our political battles Judge and Besant and our vain hopes Krishnamurti
and high-handedness expelling the German section etc. and fragmentation
over 20 separate Theosophical groups in the 1920s. If Theosophy is
declining in the world I fear it's because we as custodians have not really
done our job not taught Theosophy not held true to our program which
anyone can read in the letter of the Mahachohan to HPB.
Rich
This debate on how to preserve the TS reminds me of discussions
among the remnant of German Jews after the Holocaust.
Some said we should have practiced our ancient
orthodox religion more. Others said we were too clannish & should
have assimiated more. Who knows what was right?
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:48:48 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: He/She/It
Jerry S.:
>Case in point would be the career woman who must renounce
>her inner desires for children--balancing a career and
>motherhood is a BIG problem in this country and there is no
>real answer to it in sight. Good day care for example is hard to
>find. Men on the other hand don't generally have this problem
>of course some do widowers and so on. Anyway psychologists
>are telling us that women should not have to renounce or repress
>their femininty in order to have a career or own a business. . .
Unfortunately there are thousands of families that have no choice but to have
two parents working and leave the kids in day care with relatives or to their
own devises. That is the only way they can pay the bills. My married cousin
leaves her three kids with my aunt and uncle. Another woman my husband works
with leaves her baby with her mother. They're lucky to have family support.
There was an article in the local newspaper that described a couple in which the
woman just had a baby. In order for her to stay home with it her husband had
to work 80 hours a week. The current order of things can effect many people in
the family. I believe the business world is trying to ignore the whole thing
wishing that things were back to the old days rather than face the problem and
do something about it.
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:57:26 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Practical Lessons/guidance & Theosophy
Glad you have the waiver form and I hope it does give good enough
protection to TSA from liability. I am not a lawyer and hence do not know
how much protection it provides.
In this connection I am still bothered about TSA sponsoring
practical lessons. Following quotes are from Theosophical Classics which you
may recognize and be interested:
I. "There are those who turn to pseudo-occultism for the attainment
of magical powers in order to gratify personal ambition. That path is full
of the most serious dangers. Sometimes such people sit in a passive
condition and invite unknown entities of the astral world to work upon their
auras and organisms and to adapt them to their purposes; sometimes they
practice various forms of hatha yoga consisting mainly of peculiar kinds of
breathing which have unfortunately been widely taught in the Western world
during the last thirty years or so. As a result of such proceedings mental
and bodily disorders of a serious character often arise while at best the
contact which is gained with the inner worlds seldom extends beyond lower
astral levels from which nothing can come that is uplifting to mankind."
This was written in 1926.
II. "The attainment of astral powers as an end in itself inevitably
leads to what is called in the East the "laukika" method of development: the
powers obtained are only for the present personality and there being no
safeguards the student is extremely likely to misuse them. To this class
belong the practices of Hatha Yoga pranayama or breath-control invocation
of elementals and all systems which involve in deadening the physical
senses in some way "actively" by drugs eg. bhang haschish etc. by
self-hypnotisation or among the dervishes by whirling in a mad dance of
religious fervor until vertigo and insensibility supervene; or passively by
being mesmerized -- so that the astral senses may come to the surface."
.MK Ramadoss
At 010200 PM 12/14/95 -0800 you wrote:
>
>Doss
>
>Thanks for your information on the above topic. We have the following
>waiver or rather consent form for that purpose:
>
>=========================================================================
>
>INFORMATION AND CONSENT FORM
>
>Name................................................ Phone...............
>Address..................................................................
>City.................................. State...........Zip...............
>Do you have any physical ailment which would limit your practice of hatha
>Yoga?....................................................................
>If yes explain:.........................................................
>.........................................................................
>How long have you been practicing yoga?..................................
>What is your reason for practicing yoga?.................................
>We urge you to participate in each yoga position at your own comfort level
>and to discontinue any position or session as you choose.
>
>I hereby agree not to hold either the instructor or The Theosophical Society
>in America responsible for any injury which is incurred during any class.
>
>................... ...............................................
>Date Signature
>
>=========================================================================
>
>Happy Holidays!
>
>Ruben
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:13:44 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: re re trust problem
JR Crocker writes:
>Yes. As distasteful as even thinking about this stuff is that
>fact that the membership has been willing to accept increasingly
>unacceptable behaviour has I believe lead some of those in the
>leadership to believe they can now do virtually whatever they
>wish. We probably all want to pay very little attention to
>political goings on but perhaps now and then it is our
>responsibility - as a means of paying our debt to the founders
>an indebtedness I believe most of us feel in some way or
>another - to take care of the organization they began.
This is so well said and I hope that everyone reads it. I
believe that members of the TS indeed have a responsibility to
speak up when they see an injustice and to make an honest effort
to discern the issues and to vote. It is the same responsibility
we have towards the country inwhich we live. We have a
responsibility to vote in National and state elections. I also
believe in the practice civil disobedience when it is clear to us
that our government is perpetuating a moral wrong. As members of
the TS we have the same kind of obligations.
>PS. Jerry ... any suggestions as to what form the exertion of
>will ought to take? I have been recently wrestling with this
>question and as you have a greater grasp of the historical
>context I would very much appreciate the broader perspective
>you might bring to the question. Certainly crises of legitimacy
>- such as the one we are approaching - are nothing new ... how
>might the current membership in your opinion accomplish a
>Headquarters housecleaning without causing yet another schism?
First we need to realize how the system works. The major
power is in the Presidency and in the "inner circle" to whom the
President gets its cues. The Board of Directors per se have
little real power because they only attend two meetings a year
and it takes them the first term in order to even figure out what
is going on. Therefore the Board tends to rubber stamp whatever
the President presents to them.
Second we need to realize that over half of the membership
is unattached to any Lodge therefore they only know what they
are told through the AT and through letters sent out by National.
The only way to bring about the defeat of an undesirable change
is for the membership to network together and to keep each other
informed as to what is going on. Then the informed membership
has to take the responsibility to vote. Only a small minority of
members vote now. So a block of informed voters could be very
effective.
I think that if enough of the membership began to take the
responsibility of keeping themselves informed and by voting we
will be able to win back the Theosophical Society and the
leadership will begin to learn to become responsive to the needs
of the members.
I don't know if the present crises will end in a schism. It
depends upon the strength of the opposition and the determination
of the leaders at National to hold their ground. But if the
present issues pass it will be all the more difficult to oppose
National in the future. Radha has already taken the position
that she can sacrifice sections when they don't play her game
and she has dumped three of them since 1984. If we don't stand
up for ourselves then it will be a matter of time before our
Lodges will be as vulnerable. It seems to me that the
possibility of a schism is worth the risk--considering the
greater risks we will be facing down the road if we don't take a
stand.
Jerry HE
International Theosophist
Member of the human race but getting tired :-
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:28:45 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
Rich ...
>Does the ULT have its share of politics? Of course it
>does--people are involved. But the method of operation
>minimizes the unfortunate events which plague the TS and divert
>its attention from its mission. Witness the current "lengthy"
>discussion of political events on this List taking up time and
>space better utilized by the discussion of the ideas and
>teaching of Theosophy.
But its not a zero sum game. The potential space on the list has
no limits obviously no post was rejected by the listserver
because there were already too many other posts ... and clearly
the people who have chosen to spend the time in political
discussions believe that at this point in time their time is
better utilized by contributing to a discussion of institutional
matters than talking about the seven rounds - or they would have
written about the seven rounds.
>I propose all discussion of the TS's and any other
>organization's politics by-laws officers internal squabbles
>gossip etc. be moved to a separate board.
>
>Does anyone else agree?
I would disagree with moving the discussion ... the simplest
reason being the one Jerry's already mentioned - that we can't
really start creating new boards for every discussion that lasts
more than a few days; besides at least up to now the subject
lines on the posts dealing with TSA politics have been quite
obvious enough to permit the use of the delete key by those
uninterested in the thread.
I think however that there is a more important reason grounded
in theosophy itself for not considering organizational politics
to be somehow less valuable a topic than purely philosophical
discussions are.
Throughout the centuries humanity has hatched a great number of
fine elevated religious and philosophical schools and
traditions. And if ideas were all that mattered we would have
all long ago reached enlightenment. The devil has always been in
the details. If there is any single and profound problem that we
humans must whether now or millenia from now face it is the
problem of making the *expression* of our religious and
philosophical ideas in day to day life personal and
institutional remain in harmony with their intellectual and
spiritual beauty. It is also the problem that takes the greatest
spiritual courage for members of traditions to face ... because
it is so damned uncomfortable distasteful and especially in
juxtaposition with elevated philosophical thought is capable of
producing an almost instinctual revulsion. But every light shined
on humanity must inevitably produce a shadow and the type and
intensity of the light determines the size and type of the shadow
.. and I cannot think of a single historical example of a
religious or philosophical tradtion that has yet *fully taken
responsibility for its shadow* ... and thus could Christian
philosophers discuss the finer points of God's love at the same
time as the inquisition was slaughtering people; thus can
Catholics and Protestants shed one another's blood on the streets
of Ireland; thus could the framers of the US Constitution be
slave owners; the list could go on endlessly.
Theosophy as inspired in its latest incarnation by the
likes of Morya Koothoomi DK and formulated into an exoteric
organization by HPB IMO had as one of its features a
startling concept: That to those serious about occult science and
spiritual growth the comfortable line between the light and the
shadow between the pristine beauty of the thought and the
sometimes distasteful messiness of personality life not only
does not but *can not* be permitted to exist. In fact I believe
the chief thing that differentiates between exoteric and esoteric
organizations may possibly boil down to that single concept.
To accept theosophy as one's principle philosophical
tradtion means one cannot simply go to confession every
to church every and on the days inbetween have an affair
with one's secretary female *or* male -: screw one's business
partner out of money engage in greed deceit ingenuine
manipulations slap around one's children and ignore the problems
in one's community. It is a committment to *erase* the inner line
that in much of humanity still enables a *seperation* between
the "spiritual" and the "normal day to day" aspects of one's
life.
The goal may be the highest it is possible to conceive of:
An elevated philosophy reified *totally* into every moment of
one's day and referenced as the guide for every intention every
action in even the most seemingly mundane components of life.
Understanding of the philosophy through intellectual discussions
lectures reading and meditating certainly is a part of this but
is only half and perhaps not even the most difficult half of
the picture. While none of us would say that we had perfected the
expression of the philosophy any more than we'd claim to have
mastered its intellectual components I would claim that
discussion and in depth analysis of that expression in both our
personal lives as well as in the organizations purporting to
represent Theosophy is not only not unimportant but is in fact
fully *equally* as important as discussions and analysis of the
ideas themselves.
And this is not simply an arbitrarily devised belief but
comes from my own reading of "source" literature. The glimpses
we get of the Masters are of people that were not isolated
philosophers who spent most of their time in philosophical
discussions ... both they and HPB did study did meditate but
also travelled widely and spent considerable attention on
seemingly "trivial" matters. The Masters we get hints lead
organizations were at least titular heads of monestaries & etc.
Even further it is clear from the ML that their *time and
attention* were considered by themselves and by their Chief as
being a very rare and valuable commodity that was never lightly
allocated or unthinkingly spent and it is IMO a significant
statement from *them* about what they considered a relevent
"utilization of time" that throughout the ML they spend a not
inconsiderable amount of time talking to Sinnet and others
about some of the most seemingly mundane charateristics of the
personalities involved in the TS took a personal interest even
in particular issues of the magazines in particular meetings
who should hold what office even in the financial aspects of the
organization. In short much as we'd like to ignore the
organization and focus only on ideas the Masters themselves as
well as HPB took the *organization itself* to be a *spiritual
project* important enough to claim their immensely valuable time
and energy.
How can we then ignore it? How can we claim to follow the
"teachings" but ignore a large part of the message? How can we
permit whoever has control of the organization to simply do
whatever they wish unquestioned even when their behaviour
becomes increasingly disturbing? In the last few years the TSA
has lost a *fifth* of its membership - a cursory glance at the
report on the Theosophical Investment Trust Funds in the AT and
there are several people now determined to look in far greater
depth at the financial situation at HQ shows that between
3/31/94 and 3/31/95 *one year* they seems to have lost between
$90000 and $1000000 - something approaching a fifth - of their
value. And the same people responsible for this situation are
those now attempting to re-write bylaws in such a dashion as to
give them greater institutional and financial *control* over the
members and Lodges across the country.
The TSA is in *trouble* - and perhaps many of us that were
and are members bear some responsibility - the responsibility
that comes from not paying attention from keeping our uneasiness
and complaints silent within ourselves ... from not *taking the
organization as seriously as the Masters and HPB did* and
instead contenting ourselves with the delights of the philosophy
alone.
It is just my opinion but I definately do *not* think
discussions of Theosophical politics are inappropriate on this
list - especially because the members forum which is what the AT
was *promised* to be when it was split from the Quest has been
almost completely stolen from the membership and turned into
something often resembling an ideological platform; because HQ is
increasingly refusing people access to the information needed to
distribute any views opposing its own ... even if the opposition
is willing to fully bear the expense; this wonderful list may
very well turn into the forum from which the necessary
reformation of the TSA is hashed out and launched. How wonderful
it is that no one can control the discussion here well John
Mead could but doesn't - *THANK YOU JOHN* - and how unfortunate
that this may be the only national Theosophical space in which
the independence of thought and freedom of expression ....
qualities prized by everyone from the Buddha to HPB .... is
actually able to be expressed in all its fullness.
-JRC
[PS. Its time.]
[-:]
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:35:21 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
Jerry
I don't see that the fact that today's women are torn between career
& having kids makes them act like men. It's a very female problem
which men don't have. If you've ever stayed at home for weeks on end
with an infant you know how drudging confining & utterly boring that can get
even if they're real cute during the short time that they're awake.
If you compare that to having a stimulating job even below the glass
ceiling that can look awfully attractive. That isn't wanting to be like a
man.
Liesel
Member Theosophjy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:39:36 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Ann on He/She/It
Who said it would make you less of a man? Fathers can take care of
their children & I think that makes them a more complete human
being. I think it would be more unmanly if you'd insisted
that your wife do it when she couldn't. And don't laugh I;ve
seen that.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:43:00 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Practical Lessons/guidance & Thesosophy /1
>From: M K Ramadoss
>Subject: Re: Practical Lessons/guidance & Thesosophy
Ruben:
Thanks for the fast response. The basic concern of mine is still the
exposure of TSA to potential heavy liability.
>From a lay man's point of view even if the disclaimer was signed
if a participant in one of the programs gets sick at a future date
a smart tenacious and expensive Chicago lawyer knowing the
deep pockets of TSA may chose to pin down liability on TSA
citing past theosophical writings/publications such as
the one's I cited. The lawyers defending TSA would do so with
great glee as they know they can generate a lot bills and TSA
has money in the bank to pay the bills. More litigation more bills.
It looks like this is something that needs to be investigated and
evaluated at the highest policy level and decisions made at the highest
levels. Please keep all of us informed on theos-l.
MK Ramadoss
On 14 199512 Theosophical Society wrote:
> Doss
>
> I personally am glad that you brought out this matter and I agree with you
> a hundred percent. But do you think that everybody will agree? And if we
> even give a suggestion or hint that it would be harmful if these practices
> are undertaken don't you think we might be accused of interferring with the
> members' freedom to study whatever they like? And later on be accused that
> we will be dictating to their choice of topics to study? Do you have any
> ideas how to solve this problem?
>
> Ruben
>
> ===========================================================
>
> > Glad you have the waiver form and I hope it does give good enough
> >protection to TSA from liability. I am not a lawyer and hence do not know
> >how much protection it provides.
> >
> > In this connection I am still bothered about TSA sponsoring
> >practical lessons. Following quotes are from Theosophical Classics which you
> >may recognize and be interested:
> >
> > I. "There are those who turn to pseudo-occultism for the attainment
> >of magical powers in order to gratify personal ambition. That path is full
> >of the most serious dangers. Sometimes such people sit in a passive
> >condition and invite unknown entities of the astral world to work upon their
> >auras and organisms and to adapt them to their purposes; sometimes they
> >practice various forms of hatha yoga consisting mainly of peculiar kinds of
> >breathing which have unfortunately been widely taught in the Western world
> >during the last thirty years or so. As a result of such proceedings mental
> >and bodily disorders of a serious character often arise while at best the
> >contact which is gained with the inner worlds seldom extends beyond lower
> >astral levels from which nothing can come that is uplifting to mankind."
> >This was written in 1926.
> >
> >
> > II. "The attainment of astral powers as an end in itself inevitably
> >leads to what is called in the East the "laukika" method of development: the
> >powers obtained are only for the present personality and there being no
> >safeguards the student is extremely likely to misuse them. To this class
> >belong the practices of Hatha Yoga pranayama or breath-control invocation
> >of elementals and all systems which involve in deadening the physical
> >senses in some way "actively" by drugs eg. bhang haschish etc. by
> >self-hypnotisation or among the dervishes by whirling in a mad dance of
> >religious fervor until vertigo and insensibility supervene; or passively by
> >being mesmerized -- so that the astral senses may come to the surface."
> >
> >
> >...MK Ramadoss
> >
> >At 010200 PM 12/14/95 -0800 you wrote:
> >>
> >>Doss
> >>
> >>Thanks for your information on the above topic. We have the following
> >>waiver or rather consent form for that purpose:
> >>
> >>=========================================================================
> >>
> >>INFORMATION AND CONSENT FORM
> >>
> >>Name................................................ Phone...............
> >>Address..................................................................
> >>City.................................. State...........Zip...............
> >>Do you have any physical ailment which would limit your practice of hatha
> >>Yoga?....................................................................
> >>If yes explain:.........................................................
> >>.........................................................................
> >>How long have you been practicing yoga?..................................
> >>What is your reason for practicing yoga?.................................
> >>We urge you to participate in each yoga position at your own comfort level
> >>and to discontinue any position or session as you choose.
> >>
> >>I hereby agree not to hold either the instructor or The Theosophical Society
> >>in America responsible for any injury which is incurred during any class.
> >>
> >>
> >>................... ...............................................
> >>Date Signature
> >>
> >>=========================================================================
> >>
> >>Happy Holidays!
> >>
> >>Ruben
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
M K Ramadoss - ramadoss@eden.com
4203 Gardendale Suite 226 San Antonio TX 78229-3137
Phone & Fax 210 615-7373
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:46:10 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Trust Problem
I don't think it's a bad idea to make new Theosophists study the
basics so they know what they're talking about. The problem is
there is no attractive brief basic Theosophy literature. Boring isn't
going to hold newcomers. The one Wheaton recommends is for last
century's tweet tweets. The 2d one they recommend
says it's for more advanced students. "Ancient Wisdom Modern
Insight" is a bit long & has no study guide. Ed Abdills video tapes
are coming out any year now. He's still working on the manual to go with
them.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:48:14 GMT
From: "Liesel F. Deutsch"
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
Dear Rich
Why shouldn't men do housework? Afraid to get your tie & shirt dusty?
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 18:06:32 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
On 14 199512 Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:
>
> Coherence writes:
>
> >There is a misconception about ULT stated here that needs to be
> >cleared up. The ULT is an Association of students. There is no
> >legal entity called ULT hence no officers bylaws government.
> >Each Lodge and study group is independent and autonomous and
> >generally run by older students who assume the responsibility
> >for its functioning. The ULT is not a democracy but the views
> >and council of as many students as possible are taken into
> >consideration. This generally applies to convenient meeting
> >times administrative matters building maintenance etc. for
> >the efficient functioning of the group.
> >
> >I try to think of the ULT as a combination of the concept of a
> >Family and a Bridge Club. Families are run by older figures who
> >are given authority by virtue of their position but opinions
> >are sought. In a bridge club there is no official
> >organization but various members take responsibility for its
> >functioning. As the bridge club agrees that when they assemble
> >they will play bridge the ULT students agree that when they
> >assemble they will study HPB Judge and Crosbie.
>
> This is about as fair of a description of how ULT works that
> I have seen. I was active with the Los Angeles ULT for about
> fifteen years until we moved out of the area but still in
> contact with some of the associates. ULT is indeed more of a
> federation of students than a formal organization but an inner
> structure does indeed exist and downplaying the importance of
> that structure is in MHO unrealistic. Decisions have to be made
> concerning the upkeep of the building organizing of office help
> paying the day to day expenses of telephones office machinery
> postage etc. Though there are no officers for ULT there is a
> board of directors for Theosophy Company which is a bonified
> Organization responsible for the publications. They are also
> responsible for the assets used by ULT associates and for the
> production of ~Theosophy~ magazine. That board has a
> chairperson who also has more than a little influence concerning
> the organizations of classes and the scheduling of speakers.
> Though ULT is founded upon some very high ideals weakness in
> human nature requires that the implementation of these ideals
> require some compromises by giving the Board and individuals some
> responsibilities therefore powers that gives some justification
> to Paul's observation of a "cryptocracy."
>
> >The anonymity issue is merely an attempt to stick to ideas and
> >teaching rather than personalities. Therefore there are no
> >"leaders" officially recognized as such.
>
> Yet everyone involved in ULT knows who these "leaders" are.
> I remember when Joe Pope came to Los Angeles on a visit. He was
> scheduled to speak at one of the night gatherings.
> True to form an announcement of the topic was sent out but not
> the speaker. It made no difference. The word got around that
> Joe Pope would be speaking that night and he got a much larger
> audience than what was usual.
>
> >When writing ULT
> >students do not sign their name so that the ideas come through
> >and the reader is not biased by the personality of the author.
> >It is not a secret society where the governance is hidden
> >secret or mysterious in any way and certainly is not a
> >"cryptocracy".
>
> Yes and this is a real headache for us historians.
>
> >Does the ULT have its share of politics? Of course it
> >does--people are involved. But the method of operation
> >minimizes the unfortunate events which plague the TS and divert
> >its attention from its mission.
>
> I would say that ULT has had its share of "politics" that
> have diverted attention from its mission from time to time but
> on the whole I must agree that ULT is structured in such a way
> that more energy can be directed to the real work. In many ways
> it is much more efficient and focused than Adyar.
>
> >Witness the current "lengthy" discussion of political events on
> >this List taking up time and space better utilized by the
> >discussion of the ideas and teaching of Theosophy.
> >
> >I propose all discussion of the TS's and any other
> >organization's politics by-laws officers internal squabbles
> >gossip etc. be moved to a separate board.
> >
> >Does anyone else agree?
>
> Because of the evident failure of the Adyar TS to keep its
> membership properly informed and involved in decisions affecting
> member's and Lodge's rights I think this electronic forum is a
> godsend and may have the eventual effect of making a more
> democratic organization out of it. Since this board is open to
Jerry you are 100% correct. In the past dissemination of
information was slow and indirect filtered and usually thru the official
print media over which the bureaucrats have total control. Even today
without the electronic forum we all would not know as much as we know
today. I believe there is a purpose behind the timely availability of
this forum. So all credit goes to John E Mead.
Even with the electronic forum I have not seen any of the
elected officers saying a word here. Hope this changes. And changes soon.
..doss
> all theosophical students regardless of affiliation or none I
> can see the wisdom of putting the current discussion on a
> separate Board. On the other hand if we create a new board
> every time a subject of limited popularity arises we will soon
> have our one forum fragmenting into more and more little ones.
> Perhaps another and more productive way of looking at this
> would be to allow the diversity of subjects to continue on this
> forum. Though a ULT associate has no personal investment in
> Adyar politics I think there is still much to be learned
> concerning organizational dynamics that may help to create a
> better Organizational structure that will be to everyone's
> benefit.
>
> Jerry HE
> Member Theosophy International
> Associate ULT
> Member Theosophical Society Adyar
> Member Theosophical Society Pasadena
>
> ------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> ||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
> CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
> |------------------------------------------
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 19:01:55 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: He/She/It
In a message dated 95-12-14 015412 EST you write:
>>grew up with the idea that a man could wash floors vacuum and such. Even
>> today he washes dishes and I always remark on how desirable he looks when
>>he is at the sink elbow deep in suds.
>> - ann
>>Hi Ann
>I could get used to a man like that too. I might even let him use my
>knitting machine. I reckon that a man who can iron his shirts without
>putting creases in them is definitely worth cultivating. Haven't met one yet
>but we live in hopes. Now if he was a theosophist handsome sensitive
>home-handyman mechanic plays golf oh well just as well I like my own
>companyeh!!!!
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
Heck Bee if there were a man like that out there I'd ditch my girlfriend
and marry him myself. . . .
Best regards
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 19:18:41 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Neo-theosophy
>To all member of Theos-l:
>
>Today I visited the web site of The White Mountain Education Association whose
>address was posted by someone on our mailing list. It was referred to as
>Neo-theosophy.
>
>An amalgation of HPB Bailey Sarayadarian and Roerich it seemed to lean more
>towards Bailey. I will leave each of you to review the page for yourself
>http://www.primenet.com/~wtmtn/index.html but I will say this. While I was
>scrolling through the material I got a clear view of it. It was "I've seen
>this all before." It was like knowledge was being repackaged and being
>distributed through another yet another organization. Good or bad idea?
>
>-Ann E. Bermingham
>
I have been there too and feel a bit the same. In fact over all now that
the novelty has worn off there is a lot of no-thing on the www. Perhaps my
expectations were too high but I have been into the www.spirit and occult
sites and have picked out what little interests me and bookmarked them to
keep an eye on any changes. I really hope the Theo.org make more articles
available. I have some sites booked that are fairly heavy going so they
await the right mood to look at them but the sort of middle range serious
theosophy type stuff is lacking or else I haven't found it. My daughter is
coming for Xmas so she will teach me how to ftp articles too so that may
change my opinions. I believe it is possible to get articles from the Theo
library but again I haven't discovered how to do that either yet. I wish I
got into computers 20 years ago then I would be a real wizz and not feel so
inadequate when I can't get it together. Never mind by the time I get to 80
I should have it under control.>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 14 Dec 1996 22:51:34 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
Liesel:
>> [Jerry S]:
>>All human organizations are problematic ...
>Well then maybe the answer is that if we get large & unwieldly we
>break the whole thing down into small independent units loosely
>functioning together.
This sort of sounds like the Theosophical Network of the 1980's.
There was no HQ or central organization just an attempt to provide
information about all the different theosophical groups and lodges.
Every group was listed on an equal basis and no one was in charge.
The groups could be loosely functioning together because they could
cooperate on projects of mutual interest. But there was no objects
to accept no bylaws no overall organization to join nor membership
cards issued.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 01:53:25 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Re: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
Coherence states quite correctly that Theosophy International
resembles the open structure that ULT is stated to have and
which it would seem is approved of.
So Coherence are you going to sign up for TI?
My understanding of the "theosophy" bit is that theosophy with
or without a capital T represents spiritual wisdom such as is
to be found in the writings and teachings of antiguity as well
as nowiquity. It is both ancient and eternal but is also found
from time to time as "new wine" in "new bottles."
Sincerely
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 03:11:05 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: TSA Bylaws/Trust Problem
On 15 199512 John R Crocker wrote:
> Rich ...
>
> >Does the ULT have its share of politics? Of course it
> >does--people are involved. But the method of operation
> >minimizes the unfortunate events which plague the TS and divert
> >its attention from its mission. Witness the current "lengthy"
> >discussion of political events on this List taking up time and
> >space better utilized by the discussion of the ideas and
> >teaching of Theosophy.
>
But its not a zero sum game. The potential space on the list has
> no limits obviously no post was rejected by the listserver
> because there were already too many other posts ... and clearly
> the people who have chosen to spend the time in political
> discussions believe that at this point in time their time is
> better utilized by contributing to a discussion of institutional
> matters than talking about the seven rounds - or they would have
> written about the seven rounds.
MKR
It is not simply a question of idle political discussion we are
engaged in. I truly believe that the TSA is at a critical juncture in its
history and the changes proposed if implemented will change the
character of the organization for ever not only here but in other
countries as well. This is because generally US sets
the model for other countries to follow I am afraid the other National
Organizations will follow suit leaders over there will surely cite US
as an example to support their position.
So the more I think of the situation the more serious and
dangerous it looks to me. If anyone here feels otherwise I challenge
them to come out and convince me and others here that it is not so.
>
> >I propose all discussion of the TS's and any other
> >organization's politics by-laws officers internal squabbles
> >gossip etc. be moved to a separate board.
> >
> >Does anyone else agree?
>
> I would disagree with moving the discussion ... the simplest
> reason being the one Jerry's already mentioned - that we can't
> really start creating new boards for every discussion that lasts
> more than a few days; besides at least up to now the subject
> lines on the posts dealing with TSA politics have been quite
> obvious enough to permit the use of the delete key by those
> uninterested in the thread.
>
> I think however that there is a more important reason grounded
> in theosophy itself for not considering organizational politics
> to be somehow less valuable a topic than purely philosophical
> discussions are.
>
> Throughout the centuries humanity has hatched a great number of
> fine elevated religious and philosophical schools and
> traditions. And if ideas were all that mattered we would have
> all long ago reached enlightenment. The devil has always been in
> the details. If there is any single and profound problem that we
> humans must whether now or millenia from now face it is the
> problem of making the *expression* of our religious and
> philosophical ideas in day to day life personal and
> institutional remain in harmony with their intellectual and
> spiritual beauty. It is also the problem that takes the greatest
> spiritual courage for members of traditions to face ... because
> it is so damned uncomfortable distasteful and especially in
> juxtaposition with elevated philosophical thought is capable of
> producing an almost instinctual revulsion. But every light shined
> on humanity must inevitably produce a shadow and the type and
> intensity of the light determines the size and type of the shadow
> .. and I cannot think of a single historical example of a
> religious or philosophical tradtion that has yet *fully taken
> responsibility for its shadow* ... and thus could Christian
> philosophers discuss the finer points of God's love at the same
> time as the inquisition was slaughtering people; thus can
> Catholics and Protestants shed one another's blood on the streets
> of Ireland; thus could the framers of the US Constitution be
> slave owners; the list could go on endlessly.
> Theosophy as inspired in its latest incarnation by the
> likes of Morya Koothoomi DK and formulated into an exoteric
> organization by HPB IMO had as one of its features a
> startling concept: That to those serious about occult science and
> spiritual growth the comfortable line between the light and the
> shadow between the pristine beauty of the thought and the
> sometimes distasteful messiness of personality life not only
> does not but *can not* be permitted to exist. In fact I believe
> the chief thing that differentiates between exoteric and esoteric
> organizations may possibly boil down to that single concept.
> To accept theosophy as one's principle philosophical
> tradtion means one cannot simply go to confession every
> to church every and on the days inbetween have an affair
> with one's secretary female *or* male -: screw one's business
> partner out of money engage in greed deceit ingenuine
> manipulations slap around one's children and ignore the problems
> in one's community. It is a committment to *erase* the inner line
> that in much of humanity still enables a *seperation* between
> the "spiritual" and the "normal day to day" aspects of one's
> life.
> The goal may be the highest it is possible to conceive of:
> An elevated philosophy reified *totally* into every moment of
> one's day and referenced as the guide for every intention every
> action in even the most seemingly mundane components of life.
> Understanding of the philosophy through intellectual discussions
> lectures reading and meditating certainly is a part of this but
> is only half and perhaps not even the most difficult half of
> the picture. While none of us would say that we had perfected the
> expression of the philosophy any more than we'd claim to have
> mastered its intellectual components I would claim that
> discussion and in depth analysis of that expression in both our
> personal lives as well as in the organizations purporting to
> represent Theosophy is not only not unimportant but is in fact
> fully *equally* as important as discussions and analysis of the
> ideas themselves.
> And this is not simply an arbitrarily devised belief but
> comes from my own reading of "source" literature. The glimpses
> we get of the Masters are of people that were not isolated
> philosophers who spent most of their time in philosophical
> discussions ... both they and HPB did study did meditate but
> also travelled widely and spent considerable attention on
> seemingly "trivial" matters. The Masters we get hints lead
> organizations were at least titular heads of monestaries & etc.
> Even further it is clear from the ML that their *time and
> attention* were considered by themselves and by their Chief as
> being a very rare and valuable commodity that was never lightly
> allocated or unthinkingly spent and it is IMO a significant
> statement from *them* about what they considered a relevent
> "utilization of time" that throughout the ML they spend a not
> inconsiderable amount of time talking to Sinnet and others
> about some of the most seemingly mundane charateristics of the
> personalities involved in the TS took a personal interest even
> in particular issues of the magazines in particular meetings
> who should hold what office even in the financial aspects of the
> organization. In short much as we'd like to ignore the
> organization and focus only on ideas the Masters themselves as
> well as HPB took the *organization itself* to be a *spiritual
> project* important enough to claim their immensely valuable time
> and energy.
> How can we then ignore it? How can we claim to follow the
> "teachings" but ignore a large part of the message? How can we
> permit whoever has control of the organization to simply do
> whatever they wish unquestioned even when their behaviour
> becomes increasingly disturbing? In the last few years the TSA
> has lost a *fifth* of its membership - a cursory glance at the
> report on the Theosophical Investment Trust Funds in the AT and
> there are several people now determined to look in far greater
> depth at the financial situation at HQ shows that between
> 3/31/94 and 3/31/95 *one year* they seems to have lost between
> $90000 and $1000000 - something approaching a fifth - of their
> value. And the same people responsible for this situation are
> those now attempting to re-write bylaws in such a dashion as to
> give them greater institutional and financial *control* over the
> members and Lodges across the country.
MKR
There are other serious issues related to TIT which need to be
looked into and fixed. If not done now down the road we may have some
serious problems.
In order not to divert attention from the basic and immediate issues
of administrative and financial micro control over membership and lodges
that the National Board seeks thru bylaw changes I have not brought them up
here so far. I have communicated them in writing to the National President
with copies to the elected board of directors and the International
President as soon as the proposed bylaws were published.
A very disturbing aspect is the difficulty of getting information from
Wheaton. For example for the last two months I have been trying to get
the Trust Document and the Bylaws of the TIT and have had no success so far.
Since TIT is a 501c3 tax exempt charitable trust these documents
are NOT confidential ones. They are open to public access I believe
because of the Federal Tax Exempt status. If not I should have been
informed why I cannot have access to. In the absence of any such positive
response I am wondering why the silence and why anyone should be afraid
of providing these documents to a dues paying member? I just want to
share this information in the general context of what is going on.
> The TSA is in *trouble* - and perhaps many of us that were
> and are members bear some responsibility - the responsibility
> that comes from not paying attention from keeping our uneasiness
> and complaints silent within ourselves ... from not *taking the
> organization as seriously as the Masters and HPB did* and
> instead contenting ourselves with the delights of the philosophy
> alone.
>
> It is just my opinion but I definately do *not* think
> discussions of Theosophical politics are inappropriate on this
> list - especially because the members forum which is what the AT
> was *promised* to be when it was split from the Quest has been
> almost completely stolen from the membership and turned into
> something often resembling an ideological platform; because HQ is
> increasingly refusing people access to the information needed to
> distribute any views opposing its own ... even if the opposition
> is willing to fully bear the expense; this wonderful list may
> very well turn into the forum from which the necessary
> reformation of the TSA is hashed out and launched. How wonderful
> it is that no one can control the discussion here well John
> Mead could but doesn't - *THANK YOU JOHN* - and how unfortunate
> that this may be the only national Theosophical space in which
> the independence of thought and freedom of expression ....
> qualities prized by everyone from the Buddha to HPB .... is
> actually able to be expressed in all its fullness.
> -JRC
> [PS. Its time.]
> [-:]
>
John you have most elegantly presented the issues. We are all
grateful.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 03:13:16 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: Ann on He/She/It
Well said Liesel.
Anne
>Who said it would make you less of a man? Fathers can take care of
>their children & I think that makes them a more complete human
>being. I think it would be more unmanly if you'd insisted
>that your wife do it when she couldn't. And don't laugh I;ve
>seen that.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:45:44 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: God loves you He/She/It Does!
> >As a theologian as well as a theosophian may I state: God is
> >not a being and never was. In the Western version of the
> >Ancient Wisdom found in the Bible Tanach and other writings
> >the "name" of God is given as YHWH or Yahweh or in HPB's time
> >Jehovah.
>
> Thanks Alan. As usual you said it better and more succinctly
> that I could.
>
> Jerry S.
Thanks! .... smiles modestly but knowingly :-|
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:52:16 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
> Dear Rich
>
> Why shouldn't men do housework? Afraid to get your tie & shirt dusty?
>
> Liesel
> Member Theosophy International
> Member Human Race
Tie? Shirt? What DAT?
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:58:04 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
> ways to increase our membership - the larger the organization the
> more bureaucratic and unwieldy it becomes.
>
> Jerry S.
> Member Theosophy international
>
> Well then maybe the answer is that if we get large & unwieldly we
> break the whole thing down into small independent units loosely functioning
> together.
>
> Liesel
> Member Theosophy International
> Member Human Race
I agree totally.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 06:28:43 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: patanjali spoken in sanskrit
It is quite possible that there is a version available somewhere.
It is an interesting request. The best possible solution will be to find
someone from India who can speak/chant the verses and record it on video
tape. This way we could get an authentic pronounciation of the verses.
MK Ramadoss
On 15 199512 Frits Evelein wrote:
> Hello
>
> In Holland there is a "professor in theosophy" at the University of
> Leiden. The Theosophicall organisation "Proclos" founded somewhere
> about 1950 has this chair at the university. For the last ten years
> our professor is Wim van Vledder. Every year he takes a new subject.
> His classes are attented by 40 to 70 students.
>
> Subjects of his classes has been Secret Doctrine Plotinus Bhagavad
> Gita Patanjali sutra's Gnosis Modern science and theosophy etc..
>
> He asked me if I could help him on a spoken version of the sutras of
> Patanjali. Mayby someone knows how to get this. Please let me know.
>
> Greatings
>
> Frits Evelein
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 08:17:33 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
>Dear Rich
Why shouldn't men do housework? Afraid to get your tie & shirt dusty?
Liesel<
Liesel:
You misunderstood -- I thought that's what ANNE was saying and I couldn't
believe it. I certainly do my share of housework or else I would live in a
dirty house! And yes I have to cook for myself also else I would starve!
P.S. Please don't send me personal copies of e-mail posted to theos-l since
I then must read it twice and I have no use for multiple copies.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 10:54:27 GMT
From: Picker@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Anne Picker
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
Dear Rich
I think you may have both Annes mixed up.
There is an Anne And an Ann.
Anne
>>Dear Rich
>
>Why shouldn't men do housework? Afraid to get your tie & shirt dusty?
>
>Liesel<
>
>Liesel:
>
>You misunderstood -- I thought that's what ANNE was saying and I couldn't
>believe it. I certainly do my share of housework or else I would live in a
>dirty house! And yes I have to cook for myself also else I would starve!
>
>P.S. Please don't send me personal copies of e-mail posted to theos-l since
>I then must read it twice and I have no use for multiple copies.
>
>Rich
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 10:55:29 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Practical lessons & guidance
Doss:
>From a lay man's point of view even if the disclaimer was signed
>if a participant in one of the programs gets sick at a future date
>a smart tenacious and expensive Chicago lawyer knowing the
>deep pockets of TSA may chose to pin down liability on TSA
>citing past theosophical writings/publications such as
>the one's I cited. The lawyers defending TSA would do so with
>great glee as they know they can generate a lot bills and TSA
>has money in the bank to pay the bills. More litigation more bills.
If someone chokes on a piece of carrot in the Olcott dining room or claims he
caught salmonella from a bad salad dressing then anyone could sue for almost
anything. If the maintenance crew fails to clear the snow and ice off the
walkway and entrance to the building and someone falls some one can yell
"SUE!" Some parent can sue TS for poisoning the mind of their child with
theosophy. You could sue Olcott for giving you sore feet climbing up those
steps to the auditorium. The possibilites are endless and no amount of
prevention is going to help. Cross your fingers do the best you can and hope
your aspects are good.
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 11:22:07 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Practical lessons & guidance
At 044600 PM 12/15/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Doss:
>>From a lay man's point of view even if the disclaimer was signed
>>if a participant in one of the programs gets sick at a future date
>>a smart tenacious and expensive Chicago lawyer knowing the
>>deep pockets of TSA may chose to pin down liability on TSA
>>citing past theosophical writings/publications such as
>>the one's I cited. The lawyers defending TSA would do so with
>>great glee as they know they can generate a lot bills and TSA
>>has money in the bank to pay the bills. More litigation more bills.
>
>If someone chokes on a piece of carrot in the Olcott dining room or claims he
>caught salmonella from a bad salad dressing then anyone could sue for almost
>anything. If the maintenance crew fails to clear the snow and ice off the
>walkway and entrance to the building and someone falls some one can yell
>"SUE!" Some parent can sue TS for poisoning the mind of their child with
>theosophy. You could sue Olcott for giving you sore feet climbing up those
>steps to the auditorium. The possibilites are endless and no amount of
>prevention is going to help. Cross your fingers do the best you can and hope
>your aspects are good.
>
>Ann E. Bermingham
>
Sure all of the above and more is possible. Prudence requires risk
issues need to be deliberately looked at and with the best professional help
decisions have to be taken. What all I am pointing out is that this is an
issue that Wheaton "may" want to look at. If Wheaton had no money or assets
at all then most of the risk problems just go away. They do not when you
have deep pocket.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 12:02:34 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Cryptocracy
Thanks to JHE for his clear explanation of ULT/Theosophy Co.
interdependence. In my previous post I didn't say outright
that ULT *was* a cryptocracy but rather that since its
governance was secret my brother called it a cryptocracy
apparently a term found in SF lit which he likes. Anyway
let me be clear-- ULT is *governed* by a cryptocracy the
board of the Theosophy Company in many important respects
even if the ULT itself is free of officers or by-laws. Better?
On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
poster on the list. Sort of like a nude beach with one clothed
person. You may have good reasons for this but when you make
condescending remarks about other people on the list and their
ideas it doesn't seem quite fair to do it from a pseudonym.
Or rather perhaps the pseudonym strengthens the impression
that you are looking down on us/me/some of us/whatever. Could
you consider revealing your identity? It might change the
energy flow.
As for moving the by-laws discussion I oppose it for the
simple reason that the exchanges have been most educational
even enlightening without degenerating into serious conflict.
It ain't broke so why fix it? Probably 90% of us belong to
the Adyar TS although many of those also belong to Pasadena or
ULT. By virtue of its size what goes on in the Adyar TS is
relevant to all Theosophists. For those who don't want to read
it the headers should be clear indications of when to press
the delete key.
Namaste
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 13:14:35 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nutritious theosophy
In a message dated 95-12-14 230635 EST you write:
>Well then maybe the answer is that if we get large & unwieldly we
>break the whole thing down into small independent units loosely functioning
>together.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
>
To refresh your memory these "small independent units" are called "People"
and your recommendation is a good one. One that needs to be continually
repeated here until the TS Membership realizes as I stated previously that
Theosophy exists without this organized body. From all these posts I as an
outsider would say the TS has ceased to fulfill its function. Many of you
have commented how terrible the TS made you feel at some point. What will it
take for you to say "ENOUGH!"
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 13:15:11 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
Some thoughts and comments from several posts:
In a message dated 95-12-14 224352 EST you write:
>Because of the evident failure of the Adyar TS to keep its
>membership properly informed and involved in decisions affecting
>member's and Lodge's rights I think this electronic forum is a
>godsend and may have the eventual effect of making a more
>democratic organization out of it.
No doubt.
< if we create a new board
Subject: Re: ERGATES
Many thanks for your recent message. Could you please place my name
on the mailing list for your publication and I will ensure that it is
placed regularly on display at the TS Pasadena central library for
Australia in Melbourne. Let me know if you would like us to send you
a copy of our publication - Australasian TS Newsletter - in exchange.
Greetings for the Sacred Season from Companions of the TS Pasadena
Downunder
Andrew Rooke
16 Wimmera St.
Carnegie Melbourne
Victoria 3163
AUSTRALIA
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 16:47:11 GMT
From: "Frits Evelein"
Subject: patanjali spoken in sanskrit
Hello
In Holland there is a "professor in theosophy" at the University of
Leiden. The Theosophicall organisation "Proclos" founded somewhere
about 1950 has this chair at the university. For the last ten years
our professor is Wim van Vledder. Every year he takes a new subject.
His classes are attented by 40 to 70 students.
Subjects of his classes has been Secret Doctrine Plotinus Bhagavad
Gita Patanjali sutra's Gnosis Modern science and theosophy etc..
He asked me if I could help him on a spoken version of the sutras of
Patanjali. Mayby someone knows how to get this. Please let me know.
Greatings
Frits Evelein
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 16:51:57 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: TSA by-laws disc --- where??
hi -
Since Theos-L has so much e-mail and such varied audience I am
rather sensitive to any complaints about the volume of TSA-By-laws
e-mail.
I don't think a separate list is a very good idea as most seem
to agree. However I should recall to all that the original purposes
of theos-roots and theos-buds was to separate out certain lengthy
discussions which were not relevant to many theos-L subscribers.
with this in mind... perhaps Theos-Buds might be a good place for it.
after all it has to do with the evolving ideas in Theosophy or rather
Theosophical organizations and their future.
I thought I'd just toss that out as an idea.
anyway theos-roots and theos-buds have been slow lately.
peace -
john mead
p.s. I just received a letter from Dr. Algeo which was sent to all TSA members
regarding the By-laws change. This is itself rather interesting. :-
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 16:51:57 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: TSA by-laws disc --- where??
hi -
Since Theos-L has so much e-mail and such varied audience I am
rather sensitive to any complaints about the volume of TSA-By-laws
e-mail.
I don't think a separate list is a very good idea as most seem
to agree. However I should recall to all that the original purposes
of theos-roots and theos-buds was to separate out certain lengthy
discussions which were not relevant to many theos-L subscribers.
with this in mind... perhaps Theos-Buds might be a good place for it.
after all it has to do with the evolving ideas in Theosophy or rather
Theosophical organizations and their future.
I thought I'd just toss that out as an idea.
anyway theos-roots and theos-buds have been slow lately.
peace -
john mead
p.s. I just received a letter from Dr. Algeo which was sent to all TSA members
regarding the By-laws change. This is itself rather interesting. :-
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 19:12:01 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Bylaw Changes
I just happened to find an interesting statement in AT Mar/Apr
1993 by Dorothy Abbenhouse the then National President in the Viewpoint
section. I am quoting some of the relevant parts below:
"The by-law committee has been working hard to bring TSA by-laws
into harmony with today's practices and language. Willamay Pym David Bland
and Tim Boyd are members who serve on that committee and they will present
proposed changes for membership approval when these are ready. The following
statement has been produced by the committee and is being printed here to
invite discussion by members prior to its consideration at the annual
meeting in Aug. It will then be put to the membership by referendum."
BE IT RESOLVED- .......
That this resolution shall be published in the American Theosophist
for purposes of discussion by the members and after that after due
discussion and after consideration at an annual meeting the question shall
be put to the membership of the Theosophical Society in America by a
referendum for their decision."
The procedure that was followed in 1993 was first to publish the
resolution on bylaws in AT to provide a window of five months during which
members could discuss and after due discussion and after consideration at an
annual meeting the bylaws are put to the membership by referendum. The steps
and the time line and the objectives are very clear.
In 1995 under the new leadership the changes are being
roadrollered with no time for any member discussions with a hurried
referendum. The changes that were considered in 1993 were generally more
cosmetic than substantial. Even so Dorothy Abbenhouse trusted members and
found it wise and practical to provide ample opportunity for members to
fully discuss them before they are implemented. This simply shows that she
was approaching the changes in a very open and cooperative spirit and
attitude as it should be since the cooperation of every member will go a
long way to keep the unity and strength of TSA.
Lo and behold the changes proposed in 1995 that is being voted. The
changes are very very substantial in terms of their impact on the rights and
previleges/autonomy of members and lodges and concentration of authority at
National level for financial micromanagement of the affairs of the lodges
and study centers thus providing an effective tool for Wheaton to exert
pressure on the types of programs and activities of lodges and study centers
will be able to carryout.
The National President has a responsibility to consult with the
members when such major fundamental changes are proposed. And also there is
an urgent need to explain to the membership in a convincing manner why this
180 degree turn from the past the procedure effectively cutting of
discussion by membership. The speed with which these changes are
roadrollered appears to give the impression that there is a rush to seize
control that a quick passage the new bylaws will provide.
Wake up fellow members before it is too late.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 15 Dec 1996 21:41:19 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: TSA Membership Trends
> Trends in TSA Appeal to Different Age Groups 1987 - 1995
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> TOTAL <20 20-29 30-39 40-49 50-59 60+
> OCT87 - SEP88 887 2% 9% 29% 30% 17% 13%
> OCT88 - SEP89 1034 1% 13% 31% 29% 13% 13%
> OCT89 - SEP90 804 2% 12% 26% 32% 16% 12%
> OCT90 - SEP91 695 1% 12% 27% 33% 13% 13%
> OCT91 - SEP92 721 1% 12% 27% 33% 17% 10%
> OCT92 - SEP93 654 1% 10% 24% 35% 19% 11%
> OCT93 - SEP94 641 2% 8% 22% 35% 20% 14%
> OCT94 - SEP95 597 1% 9% 20% 33% 19% 16%
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Seems the midlife crisis householder baby-boomers makeup the
majority and not the "older" members. Interesting. Thanks.
Lewis
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 00:55:15 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Theo-politics
> ... this wonderful list may
> very well turn into the forum from which the necessary
> reformation of the TSA is hashed out and launched. How wonderful
> it is that no one can control the discussion here well John
> Mead could but doesn't - *THANK YOU JOHN* - and how unfortunate
> that this may be the only national Theosophical space in which
> the independence of thought and freedom of expression ....
> qualities prized by everyone from the Buddha to HPB .... is
> actually able to be expressed in all its fullness.
> -JRC
> [PS. Its time.]
> [-:]
It's not just the TSA though is it John? The constitution of
out English section bears some of the characteristics that have
been mention in connection with the proposed TSA by-law changes
and the same is probably true of other National Sections.
What happens in the TSA is of interest *and concern* to all
theosophists many of whom are not in the USA. The number of US
members is low per head of population compared to the UK.
Aside from my own rather obvious postings theosophy as such
*is* an international concern. The TSA and the TS in England
share a common connection with Adyar in India as well as with
other National Sections: note the term "sections" - we are
*part* of something. Maybe it would be a good thing for the
leadership of the TSA to remember this? I do not have a vote on
these proposed changes but I am as concerned as anyone else
about them - the future of the theosophical movement itself
could be at stake. The existence of ULT or Point Loma theosophy
is virtually non-existent here though my own Lodge for
example has writings from both sources in its library as well
as AAB.
If the heart of theosophical principle is at stake then this
most certainly *should* and *must* be discussed internationally.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:09:56 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: John Algeo's Letter to Members
At 102900 PM 12/15/95 -0500 JEM wrote:
>
>hi -
>
>Since Theos-L has so much e-mail and such varied audience I am
>rather sensitive to any complaints about the volume of TSA-By-laws
>e-mail.
><>
>
>I thought I'd just toss that out as an idea.
>
>anyway theos-roots and theos-buds have been slow lately.
>
>peace -
>
>john mead
>
>p.s. I just received a letter from Dr. Algeo which was sent to all TSA members
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>regarding the By-laws change. This is itself rather interesting. :-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have not received it yet. If you or any one else who has received it can
post it here it would help if the letter is not too long.
...doss Scribed at 8.00 am cdt - 12/16/95
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:44:42 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Cryptocracy
Scribed at 8.45 on 12/16/95...
At 052800 AM 12/16/95 -0500 Bee wrote:
JOHNSON
Thanks to JHE for his clear explanation of ULT/Theosophy Co.
>>interdependence. In my previous post I didn't say outright
>>that ULT *was* a cryptocracy but rather that since its
>>governance was secret my brother called it a cryptocracy
>>apparently a term found in SF lit which he likes. Anyway
>>let me be clear-- ULT is *governed* by a cryptocracy the
>>board of the Theosophy Company in many important respects
>>even if the ULT itself is free of officers or by-laws. Better?
>>
>>On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>poster on the list. Sort of like a nude beach with one clothed
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Glad you mentioned this. I wondered about it.
>>person. You may have good reasons for this but when you make
>>condescending remarks about other people on the list and their
>>ideas it doesn't seem quite fair to do it from a pseudonym.
>>Or rather perhaps the pseudonym strengthens the impression
>>that you are looking down on us/me/some of us/whatever. Could
>>you consider revealing your identity? It might change the
>>energy flow.
>>
>>As for moving the by-laws discussion I oppose it for the
>>simple reason that the exchanges have been most educational
>>even enlightening without degenerating into serious conflict.
>>It ain't broke so why fix it? Probably 90% of us belong to
>>the Adyar TS although many of those also belong to Pasadena or
>>ULT. By virtue of its size what goes on in the Adyar TS is
>>relevant to all Theosophists. For those who don't want to read
>>it the headers should be clear indications of when to press
>>the delete key.
>>
>>Namaste
>>
>As a TS member far removed from TSA I agree with what you say. It may not
>apply to our situation at the moment but having read the posts it will keep
>the matter in memory if it should crop up in my patch. I have printed off
>the most informative ones to keep on file. We have minor disputes here but
>nothing that cannot be sorted out at one of our Exec meetings which are held
>5 times a year and Lodge Presidents or their designated deputy are paid
>travelling to attend so we are encouraged to participate by this fact alone.
>Some people at meetings can take umbrage where none was meant and so
>unsettle the meeting for a while but so far all has ended ok in the end. >
>Bee Brown
>Member Theosophy International
>
I too fully agree both with Johnson and Bee.
Couple of years ago I had first hand experience in a smaller scale as
to how useful e-mail communication could be. From the Theosophical
literature I learnt that transportation and communication are key to
efficiency. Are not the Adepts have at their disposal instant transportation
and communication capabilities in addition to other capabilities and powers.
We are in a world of instant communication and Internet is a god send
to keep all the members around the world informed of happenings in any part
of the world. Let us make full use of it. Let us hope our elected officials
understand and intelligently use this forum and encourage members around the
world to get on it.
Again all this would not have happened but for JEM.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 03:09:12 GMT
From: Sy Ginsburg <72724.413@compuserve.com>
Subject: Save Reading Time on Theos-L
I agree that the one bulletin board "Theos-L" is a good place to put most
postings since it is the board that most of us watch.
But there is something we all can do to save us all a lot of time.
Many of us have the habit of recopying all or part of someone else's message and
then put our own comments after it. This is easy to do with the Internet tools
that we use but it is very time consuming for the readers. In some recent
instances I have had to re-read someone's relatively long reposting of an
earlier message just to see their one or two sentence comments about it.
If we all use a little common sense and just give a simple reference to a
previous posting or a few words to summarize it our messages would be shorter
and more succinct saving everyone time. For example my lead sentence of this
posting simply refers in summary to previous postings from "Coherence" "John
Mead" and others about the use of the Theos-L board. I could just as easily
have copied their entire messages just to add this comment. But then you would
all have had to read it over again just to get to what I have to say.
I offer this simple suggestion for your consideration.
Sy Ginsburg
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 03:50:51 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: Re: Re: Alice A. Bailey; tenets
In reply to Liesel of 12.14.95:
Hi Liesel --
My aplogies for the delay in getting back to you -- I've been working around
the effects of a catastrophic hard drive failure.
Regarding your guestions on the AAB tenets and your request for greater
detail: I'll give it a go but I think it is important to establish a few
"ground rules" first --- I am *not* professing to be an expert on either the
teachings of AAB or HPB and my first purpose in posting the AAB tenets was
to solicit comments from others. "Multiple Choice" tests are always easier
but "Compare and Contrast" questions generally give more information
wouldn't you agree? :
With that in mind
1 RE the teaching on Shamballa the Hierarchy and the "Center where the
Will of God is known": this to me seems to be the single biggest point of
difference between the AAB writings and "orthodox" theosophy. In the
former M KH and the other Masters of Wisdom are not singular individuals
but are parts of a "community of saints" or White Brotherhood or Hierarchy
which is comprised in part of those human individuals who have met or
surpassed that point in evolution called Transfiguration of the Personality.
That point is achieved for an individual when the integrated threefold
personality first makes contact with and is finally subject to the purpose
of the Soul; the "how to" of this is outlined in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras or
Raja Yoga. Hierarchy forms the Heart center of the "One in Whom we live and
move and have our being" while Shamballa corresponds to the Head center.
2 "Aryan people" is used in AAB's writings in the same way that "race" is
used in theosophical literature. In Jung's commentary on Richard Wilhelm's
translation of the Taoist text The Secret of the Golden Flower he says
"When faced with this problem of grasping the ideas of the East the usual
mistake of Western man is like that of the student in Faust. Misled by the
Devil he contemptuously turns his back and carried away by Eastern
occultism takes over yoga practices quite literally and becomes a pitible
imitator. Theosophy is our best example of this mistake."
Hard words but his point is that there is a fundamental difference between
the Oriental and Occidental mind and that what is "best" for one is not
necessarily correct for the other. Jung got a little carried away there
IMO but he does have a point. In the writings of AAB meditation begins
"with seed" and is formalized as opposed to say zazen.
3 In the AAB teachings about the Seven Rays or energies qualified by the
seven fundamental differentiations of the intitial manifestation of Spirit
we have one of the first substantial "splits" from the original teachings
of HPB again IMO. There are references in the SD that can be interpreted
this way but there is not a detailed body of information in that work about
it. I believe it is in one of CWL's books where the first outline is given
Masters and the Path?. The concept is central to AAB's writings.
RE your comment: For Psychology to be "all on man's side" you have to
define Mind as "all on man's side" yes?
4 I doubt that I'm the person to try and explain AAB's take on astrology. :
5 In AAB's teachings your meditation phone line should go straight to your
Soul or Higher Self or Ego -- this is one instance where a lack of
accepted standard theosophical terminology hinders. I once saw a group of
newcomers walk out of a TS study group that got sidetracked from the
scheduled topic to arguing about which subplane the Higher Self resides upon
and whether or not it encompasses the causal lotus -- sheesh.... The first
goal of significance is to completely integrate the threefold personality
with the Soul which has been incarnating for eons through various
personalities. In the AAB writings there is a sharp distinction made
between occultism and mysticism and meditation is a scientific means of
creative endeavor.
6 Fair enough close enough whatever. : The idea goes a little
farther in that what was once a *personal* relationship between Master and
chela is now one of *group identification* as a result of the transition
from Pisces to Aquarius.
7 In the AAB teaching on the coming world religion we have another of the
main differences with pre-1895 theosophy I think. In the former the
returning Piscean Avatar the Christ the Imam the Maitreya the Messiah
etc. will as the Avatar for humanity in Aquarius institute an exoteric
religious observance of presently esoteric events or Festivals. The three
main "religious holy days" are Easter the great Western festival at the
time of the full moon of spring Wesak the great Eastern festival of the
Buddha at the time of the Taurus moon and the Festival of Goodwill at the
moon of Gemini. These three anchor in human consciousness the "divine
aspects" of Will-Love-Active Intelligence the Trinity of Christianity and
the nine other festivals correspond to the "divine attributes" which are the
remaining energy qualities seeking expression through humanity or Rays 04 -
7 in AAB's parlance.
Does that address your questions somewhat? As MKRamadoss pointed out
theos-l should not be a forum for promoting a separatist agenda but rather
for exploring the ideas of theosophy. The key question as it seems to me
is whether or not the pre-1895 teachings of the founders make a complete set
of theosophical instruction or if there are other sources/ideas that are
useful to us in what we are trying to accomplish as individuals and as a
group. I look forward to reading the comments of others on this.
Jim
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 03:54:38 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rich on He/She/It
Rich:
>You misunderstood -- I thought that's what ANNE was saying and I couldn't
>believe it. I certainly do my share of housework or else I would live in a
>dirty house! And yes I have to cook for myself also else I would starve!
You'd be quite a catch. All that esoteric knowledge cooking and housework
too!
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 05:49:07 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
ET
>The first kind of idea may need some theosophical validation. The second
>kind of idea deals with things that could be considered as scientific
>knowledge and not need some special insight before they can be believed.
>I would put the idea of the Masters in the second category as real
>living beings and not as an arbitrary mystical insight dealing with
>something that is basically unknowable.
>
>I don't need an ego identifiction with the idea that there's a country
>called "France" in order to believe that it exists. I can take the word
>of geographers and map makers.
RI
It's pretty obvious that "France" is not nearly as closed or private of a
belief since it can be validated by most people who are willing to follow
the directions of the map makers and go there. This is the first time I have
heard anybody say that the existence of Masters is the kind of idea which
"could be considered as scientific knowledge"; I suppose however you
simply mean it in the same sense as the "Abominable Snowman"--that is if
they ever find it they will be able to see it etc.
Also allow me get rid of *arbitrary* and change the wording a little so we
can agree on our "first category of ideas." Thus: *Mystical insights
dealing with things basically unknowable any other way*. --I am never one
for biting the theosophical hand that feeds us all . . . .
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 09:28:22 GMT
From: Richtay@aol.com
Subject: Re: ERGATES
Dear Andrew
We would love an exchange!
The latest ERGATES Dec 1995 is coming at you.
Rich
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 09:48:24 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Cryptocracy
>Thanks to JHE for his clear explanation of ULT/Theosophy Co.
>interdependence. In my previous post I didn't say outright
>that ULT *was* a cryptocracy but rather that since its
>governance was secret my brother called it a cryptocracy
>apparently a term found in SF lit which he likes. Anyway
>let me be clear-- ULT is *governed* by a cryptocracy the
>board of the Theosophy Company in many important respects
>even if the ULT itself is free of officers or by-laws. Better?
>
>On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
>poster on the list. Sort of like a nude beach with one clothed
>person. You may have good reasons for this but when you make
>condescending remarks about other people on the list and their
>ideas it doesn't seem quite fair to do it from a pseudonym.
>Or rather perhaps the pseudonym strengthens the impression
>that you are looking down on us/me/some of us/whatever. Could
>you consider revealing your identity? It might change the
>energy flow.
>
>As for moving the by-laws discussion I oppose it for the
>simple reason that the exchanges have been most educational
>even enlightening without degenerating into serious conflict.
>It ain't broke so why fix it? Probably 90% of us belong to
>the Adyar TS although many of those also belong to Pasadena or
>ULT. By virtue of its size what goes on in the Adyar TS is
>relevant to all Theosophists. For those who don't want to read
>it the headers should be clear indications of when to press
>the delete key.
>
>Namaste
>
As a TS member far removed from TSA I agree with what you say. It may not
apply to our situation at the moment but having read the posts it will keep
the matter in memory if it should crop up in my patch. I have printed off
the most informative ones to keep on file. We have minor disputes here but
nothing that cannot be sorted out at one of our Exec meetings which are held
5 times a year and Lodge Presidents or their designated deputy are paid
travelling to attend so we are encouraged to participate by this fact alone.
Some people at meetings can take umbrage where none was meant and so
unsettle the meeting for a while but so far all has ended ok in the end. >
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 17:31:05 GMT
From: lcm@vnet.net
Subject: testing interfaces for jem
this is a test message only.
rs and go there.
I agree that France is more accessible to more people than France this is
indisputable. But the way you demonstrate knowledge of France is very
interesting: "since it can be validated by most people who are willing to
follow
> the directions of the map makers and go there."
It strikes me that the knowledge of the Masters is the same. We are given
directions but we must pursue them. If we will not i.e. become chelas
admittedly a difficult task we cannot thereby say that Masters are not
scientifically knowable. IN PRINCIPLE THEY ARE because we have a means of
testing that hypothesis and falsifying it. If we follow the "directions"
and do NOT find Masters then we may say it is false. But so many people
throughout history testify to the existence of enlightened beings that to me
the evidence is unimpeachable !!
At least so it seems to me.
Cheerily
Rich
P.S. The Winter Solstice is coming. What is everyone planning to do for it
if anything? I always at least burn a candle and think of my highest
spiritual goals. Sometimes I make myself a full-blown ceremony as the mood
strikes.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 16 Dec 1996 22:41:56 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Coherence
> >On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
> >poster on the list. Sort of like a nude beach with one clothed
> >person. You may have good reasons for this but when you make
> >condescending remarks about other people on the list and their
> >ideas it doesn't seem quite fair to do it from a pseudonym.
> >Or rather perhaps the pseudonym strengthens the impression
> >that you are looking down on us/me/some of us/whatever. Could
> >you consider revealing your identity? It might change the
> >energy flow.
If you send an e-mail to listserv@vnet.net with the words
review theos-l
as the body of the text you will find coherence@aol.com listed
as Gregory D. Hoskins though Mr. Hoskins is not necessarily by
this definition the same person who posts to theos-l.
However Bee I agree with what you say above.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 01:09:34 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: E-Mail Address for Adyar fwd
Is there an e-mail address for Adyar? I have seen on the web that
Internet Service is commercially available in India.
MK Ramadoss
At 050800 PM 12/15/95 -0500 Johnson wrote:
>Thanks to JHE for his clear explanation of ULT/Theosophy Co.
>interdependence. In my previous post I didn't say outright
><<>>
>On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
>poster on the list.
I think Coherence is Gregory D Hoskins. Some one in this list may
recognize the name. Anybody any comments?
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 07:03:05 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
ET
>I'd put the idea of the Mahatmas as one subject to external verification
>as something that exists in the world. A Mahatma is as real as a taxi
driver.
>A Mahatma is not only known through mystical insight like a Tibetan deity.
>If we agree that the Buddha
>existed then there is a scale of advancement between the common person
>and him. The Mahatmas are humans at one point along this scale. Is there
>anything wrong with that idea?
RI
No I guess there is nothing wrong with thinking about it this way. You
should remember however that John Algeo criticised Paul for using the term
*Masters* in a not-quite-preternatural-enough fashion. I agree there is a
"scale" of advancement going up from the common person; however I prefer the
term *Adept* capitalized to characterize someone who is able to utilize
his or her theosophical "category one" transcendental understandings for
the more successful management of his or her private life. There are
naturally many "degrees of Adeptship."
Perhaps then we agree on this. Where we may disagree nevertheless is how
freely and in what manner an individual is entitled to promulgate esoteric
ideas without indicating their basis category one transcendental; "category
two scientific"; or "category three" just passing them along because
someone else passed them along. If HPB's testimony for the existence of her
Mahatmas the type with wonder-working powers etc. is sufficient for someone
else to believe in Them that is fine with me--provided of course that the
person does not present the belief in a way which suggests that his or her
own theosophical development also corroberates Their existence. One of
academia's few saving graces perhaps is its obdurate insistence on a proper
chain of footnotes. . . .
ET
>I would say that I'm speaking from what seems genuine to me and not
>simply materials that I recall having read in theosophical books.
>I've had what I consider insights of my own which I have not specifically
>read anywhere.
RI
To the extent you speak about the Mahatmas in this way I honor your words.
[ET incidental
>>Is there any or is it merely a closed pleasant private predilection
>>of merely idiopathic importance.
>Time for the dictionary American Heritage idiopathic =
>AHD> designating a disease having no known cause
RI
*idiopathic* 01: "peculiar to the individual" WEBSTER'S SEVENTH NEW
COLLEGIATE]
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
I
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 09:24:55 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: delivery workaround/problems
hi -
mail delivery seems to having some "lock" problems.
we are still getting e-mail. The listserv seems to work ok.
hence you can retrieve e-mail by sending to
listserv@vnet.net the lines
get theos-l theos-l.951216
for 12/16/95 e-mail
of course -- this message may not get through :-
peace -
john mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 09:36:57 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: An Auspicious Solstice
We did a solstice celebration at the Houston Lodge. I was asked to do a
meditation and I realized that this may be a very auspicious solstice indeed.
The solstice is a little late being on the 22. The solstice marks the longest
day of the year the dark night of the soul. We move from the frivolity and
generosity of Sagitarius ruled by Jupiter Santa to Capricorn the merciless
executive ruled by Saturn the father of endings and restriction.
Provocatively the new moon in Capricorn occurs almost exactly at the same time
which I think is very unusual K. Paul help me out on this! This means the new
year is heralded by new beginnings of the and Moon in Capricorn. To further
this influence there is a continuing conjunction of Neptune and Uranus in
Capricorn furthering the influences of this sign. Pluto moves into Sagitarius.
Some possible interpretations. This year will be marked by a move toward
austerity and responsbility or there will be very negative consequences. The US
Budget will be modified and signed marking the end of a 30 year cyle of
government give-aways. Medicare-Medicare will be changed to increase individual
responsiblity and will be managed by executives more like HMO executives and
less like irresponsible bureaucrats. Medical care for all will be a serious
issue but the element of sprituality will be introduced so that death is seen
once again as a nescessary growth stage and less a punishment to be avoided at
all costs. Hospices and death with dignity movements will also be seen more.
Pluto in Scorpio coincided with the AIDS crisis and Pluto's slow movement into
Sagitarius will bring philosophical and spiritual insights into the slow
management of the disease. Abortion racial and decadent spirituality in the
entertainment industry will be further examined with a more philisophical eye.
Neptune and Uranus in Capricorn fortell monstrous yet hazily and almost
glamourous changes in economic and political instituions. Power grabs in
organization large and small wil be seen with democratic fairness being replaced
by executive commands know what I mean?!.
The good side of Capricorn is that discipline and restriction bring need
prudence and skill with what once was thought as endless bounty. Enjoy the
influence of Sagitarius while you can. Kiss your favorite Mr. or Ms. Claus
before we get even further into harrassment issues just a joke :!
Is this a bunch of Capri-corn or what smiles and hugs for the holidays?!
Merry Solstice and Happy New Cycle of Evolution!
Namaste
Keith Price
Merry Solstice
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 10:44:00 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Internet
Hi
I just saw that in the Detroit Metro yellow pages businesses are
putting their e-mail address in addition to their telephone numbers. Soon I
think we will have our e-mail addresses in the residential white pages as
well. Just an indication that no one can ignore Internet any more. We had
telephones then faxes and now e-mail. What next?
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 12:20:08 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Alice A. Bailey; tenets
Jim:< In Jung's commentary on Richard Wilhelm's
>translation of the Taoist text The Secret of the Golden Flower he says
>"When faced with this problem of grasping the ideas of the East the usual
>mistake of Western man is like that of the student in Faust. Misled by the
>Devil he contemptuously turns his back and carried away by Eastern
>occultism takes over yoga practices quite literally and becomes a pitible
>imitator. Theosophy is our best example of this mistake."
>
>Hard words but his point is that there is a fundamental difference between
>the Oriental and Occidental mind and that what is "best" for one is not
>necessarily correct for the other. Jung got a little carried away there
>IMO but he does have a point.
Yes he does. And as I have pointed out before this idea was
originally expressed to me by James Long back in 1969 before I knew of
Jung. Jung's criticism is directed toward Adyar. Basically we in the West
need a whole new type of meditation/yoga practice based on the Eastern
model but differing to account for our basic differences in constitution.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 12:53:58 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
sorry for butting in but...
RI:
>Theosophy is doomed at least in terms of popular appeal if it continues to
>present itself as merely the place where all the grand-but-removed esoteric
>ideas can be studied; its hope is to show how these ideas may also be
>regarded as "metaphors" for some psychological realities which when properly
>understood can be USED by the individual to very great advantage indeed.
Just a humble opinion here but I rather like grand-but-removed
esoteric ideas. I agree with your line of thought here but doesn't "can be
USED by the individual to very great advantage" smack of the dreaded m
word? magic to the uninitiated. This is probably why I like theosophy so
much--it provides a very nice mental framework upon which to build my
magical universe. This makes theosophy useful as a great source of
meaningful archetypal structures or as you say metaphors from which to
construct a viable worldview. It gives firm intellectual foundation to modern
magical experience. For this reason I would suspect that the TS leaderships
would prefer to let theosophy die then wed it to magic and make it useful. In
any case none that I know of are terribly concerned about the current low
memberships opting for quality over quantity.
> The important thing is to keep some "remainder" of
>untransformed Self operative. This unfortunately is not so easy to do with
>semi-Selves forming at the higher levels of consciousnessness; thus a
>meditative practice which can perfect an individual's ability to make
>ever-more subtle discriminations between Self and all the "advanced variants"
>of semi-Self becomes crucial.
Agreed. This reminds me of something James Long once
told me--we should not try to re-unite consciousness with the Self in toto
but rather maintain contact with it in the backs of our minds as an inner
guiding voice that is always available should we need it. There is
nothing wrong with the semi-Self that maintains contact with its inner
Source and uses that Source for inspiration and guidance on an
as-needed basis. It is the semi-Self that loses this contact and sets
itself up as Self that will soon step in deep doodoo.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 14:19:10 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: delivery workaround/problems
On 17 199512 John E. Mead wrote:
> mail delivery seems to having some "lock" problems.
>
> we are still getting e-mail. The listserv seems to work ok.
> hence you can retrieve e-mail by sending to
> listserv@vnet.net the lines
>
> get theos-l theos-l.951216
>
> for 12/16/95 e-mail
John ...
Does the command go to or ?
^^^^ ^^^^
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 14:23:47 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Theosophy and Democracy
To what extent are theosophical organizations and democracy compatible?
To what extent is theosophy compatible with organization and
institutionalization? I ask these questions as I am tangentially aware of the
concerns over the proposed change in by-laws as well as other larger issues.
Theosophy proposes an ultimate unity of material mentality and spirit.
Yet it also proposes a hierarchical gradation of spirit higheset to mental in
the middle and matter at the lowest. ALthough matter is ultimately spirit
and spirit is ultimatley matter there is in the process of evolution a seeming
arrow of time that points toward greater and greater organization and thus
greater and greater value for entities that can value.
Theosphy is based on semi-secret and secret teachings that have appeared
everywhere and all times throughout man's history. Many see Blavatsky as the
greatest recent teacher and have contineued the organization that she built.
She did not conceive of it as a church or else she would have made
herself head and set down a canon of ultimate authority. She seemed to choose
the then current parlimentary style of organization that seemed democratic and
advanced for that time.
Times change people change philosphies change worldviews change but
hopefully some nearly ulitmate truth remains unchanged which we could put under
the general title of "ancient wisdom" or theosophy. Theosophy will always
remain but the teachers and teaching institutions must change and evolve as
does everything else.
Of pressing concern is the current "triumph" of democratic and free
marketplace ideas vs. top down structured organizations such as Communism the
Catholic Church Islam Masonry? and such. America has never really been a
true democracy but a Republic with checks and balances of the various competing
factions.
Can the mob really be trusted or do we need the guiding wisdom of an
inner circle of trusted leaders in the know? Theosophy has no real membership
requirements and the membership is transient uncontrolled and individual
members may have no real contact with the teachings of Blavatsky at all.
Shouldn't those older and wiser and with more time than most your trully
for sure be entrusted with making certain the the current wealth of archived
materials remain intact and available for years and centuries even. An
individual's life is short and their membership shorter.
Do the Master's oversee the well being of the societies and inspire the
leadership to do the right thing with the burden of leadership? Isn't their a
hierarchy at work in everything in the world?
To this last question Ken Wilber would reply a definite YES!.
Everything has its place as a monad or holon as he calls it. Yet these holons
fit on a specific level within the hierarchy. The higher cannot exist without
the lower levels but the lower levels do not contain the higher they only
support it and become united with it as a latter new unity-monad-holon.
Thus the holographic paragigm is true in a way but is wishful thinking
if you think that a dewdrop really equals an ocean-in some ways yes but not in
all ways. Many similar dewdrops can make very different oceans.
But back to the original concern is democracy possible or and ideal?
Can the tail wag the dog? The dog can do without the tail but not without his
brain. All things are not always equal.
Yet we instinctively feel that all should have a voice an opportunity to be
heard. This one feels need not be changed. Why should the leadership have
things too easy? Shouldn't they be held accountable?
Shouldn't they trust the membership as much as the membership trusts them. Or do
they care about the amorphous faceless members that appear to them as burdens.
The Kern Foundation has continued to support the society to the extent
that its members contribute also. They often provide matching funds. The KF
seems to support a widening of membership and its contributions. To what extent
are the proposed by-law changes consistent with our overall mission?
Namste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 14:52:37 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: psuedonyms hidden users etc.
hi -
actually as it is currently set up a person can use an alias as well as
request
that their subscription be "hidden" when people use the "review" query.
I have not changed these options since I can envision a "rare" case or two
where this might be desirable. However I personally don't like the
"hidden" aspects concerning user's identities.
It is somewhat immaterial since anyone who posts has a specific e-mail
address. Hence -- any person who is motivated can ultimately ask the sysadmin
at that location who is using that address. i.e. any good private investigator
can easily figure out who is there. The net is not a secure place to hide.
I do encourage people to use their "real" names. This actually gives their
comments
more validity. People who speak from "behind the curtain" are easily ignored
and assumed untrustworthy.
peace -
john mead
jem@vnet.net
p.s. the lists are slow these days. be patient. the through-put should
be better this coming week. :-
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 15:29:40 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Happy Solstice
Keith:
>Abortion racial and decadent spirituality in the
>entertainment industry will be further examined with a more philisophical eye.
Decadent spirituality? Self-indulgent clergy? Could someone please tell me what
that is? Sounds like something I might want to explore with the right study
group.
>Neptune and Uranus in Capricorn fortell monstrous yet hazily and almost
>glamourous changes in economic and political instituions.
Uranus goes into Aquarius on Jan 09 1995 and Neptune goes into the same sign
on 192811 1998. Care to give us some interpretations here?
Happy Soltice to all!
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 15:35:11 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Call for help on beginner books
To all members of Theos-l:
I have a friend who is interested in TS. She likes Quest magazine and wants to
know more about what TS is what it stands for and some history. She feels she
is not an intellectual and is intimidated by some of the literature. She's
looking for guidance in terms of some beginners' literature that is not going to
overwhelm her. What would the august body that frequents this corner of
cyberspace suggest?
Thank you
Ann E. Bermingham
P.S. We have a tenative date to see J. Algeo speak on the Wizard of Oz at
Olcott. She thinks John is cool.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 16:15:44 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: An Auspicious Solstice
At 044100 PM 12/17/95 -0500 you wrote:
>We did a solstice celebration at the Houston Lodge. I was asked to do a
>meditation and I realized that this may be a very auspicious solstice indeed.
>The solstice is a little late being on the 22. The solstice marks the longest
>day of the year the dark night of the soul. We move from the frivolity and
>generosity of Sagitarius ruled by Jupiter Santa to Capricorn the merciless
>executive ruled by Saturn the father of endings and restriction.
>
Glad to see that someone in Houston is on this forum. I am planning to
send out the information sheet on signing up to theos-l. Any effort on your
part to encourage the members of your lodge and their friends to sign up
here will greatly help. More participants more we can exchange ideas and
discuss other matters.
When you next meet with members at your lodge please convey my best
greetings for a merry christmas and happy new year to all of you.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 23:16:18 GMT
From: theos
Subject: Re: E-Mail Address for Adyar
Doss
None yet as far as I know. I suggested to a member who was going there
this Winter to help set up at least email services so that we can
communicate with Adyar thru cyberspace. I was also thinking of going to
Adyar maybe in 1997 to assist on this regard.
Ruben
==============================================================================
On 16 199512 M K Ramadoss wrote:
>
> Is there an e-mail address for Adyar? I have seen on the web that
> Internet Service is commercially available in India.
>
> MK Ramadoss
>
> Scribed at 11:15pm - 12/16/95
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 23:31:09 GMT
From: theos
Subject: Re: E-Mail Address for Adyar fwd
Doss
We have no official notification if Adayar has their email working at
this time. I suggested to a member from California who was scheduled to
go to Adyar this Winter to assist in setting up Adyar's cyberspace
communications.
Ruben - theos@netcom.com
=========================================================================
On 17 199512 M K Ramadoss wrote:
> From: M K Ramadoss
> To: theos@netcom.com
> Cc: theos-l@vnet.net "m.k. ramadoss"
> Subject: E-Mail Address for Adyar
>
> Is there an e-mail address for Adyar? I have seen on the web that
> Internet Service is commercially available in India.
>
> MK Ramadoss
>
> Scribed at 11:15pm - 12/16/95
> Resent at 7.10am 12/17/95
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 23:36:08 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: ULT Misconceptions and a Proposal
Coherence:
> ... because of the importance of the topic and
>the sweeping effects that this type of communication could have on the TS a
>board list dedicated to announcements changes votes officers isssues
>basically a forum for the TS membership still seems like a good idea.
I think that things like this will naturally arise by fission as our
level of participation grows. We've been flat for about two years in
subscribers and whenever we've gotten too active some people will
drop out being unable to handle the greater volume of messages. Perhaps
at that point we could consider new lists. On the other hand a list
created for discussion in Spanish theos-span has been totally ignored
since its creation ages ago.
>However HPB said sorry no reference available
>to the effect that she would shake off the TS like dust from her feet if it
>should stray from the original program.
Yes if it failed in its purpose it would be abandoned. The important thing
is the work not the particular method of carrying it out. The Masters are of
course bound by loyalty gratitude and duty to those that carry on the work.
Among the ideals that are followed is loyalty to one's teacher. In "The
Mahatma Letters" it's mentioned that KH and M would abandon the T.S. in
a moment rather than disobey or be disloyal to their teacher the Mahachohan.
>To the extent that the TS is an
>organization attempting to live up to the highest ideals of Theosophy it is
>worthy of support. To the extent that the organization its "leaders"
>really no longer exemplify the ideals of Brotherhood and Selflessness
>displaying clear unbiased judgement dump it.
I might compare it to a financial investment. Forget about sunk costs
about how much has been put into a particular project. See how much it
would cost to refurbish things make the T.S. better and use it as an
instrument
for promulgation of the philosophy. Compare that cost to what it would take
with other approaches including starting other new theosophical groups.
See where there is the most benefit to the world for our efforts.
>Our allegiance to an organization need be no greater than our personal
>convictions dictate regardless of sentimentality for the founders.
Our allegiance I'd suggest is not specifically to the organization nor
to its founders but to the universal cause of compassion which we take
with the Bodhisattva Vow. We are loyal of course to our fellow workers
and to our guru teacher pandit or spiritual teacher if we have one.
We are in a way in love with the beauty of the spiritual and the wisdom
of Mahat and express this love by passing on and sharing in the world
whatever we are capable of passing on.
>ULT associates are "loyal to the founders of the Theosophical Movement"
>and in effect abandoned the TS because it had strayed from the original
>lines laid down.
But ULT associates are simply theosophical students in an organization
with its own program and policies. They follow the particular pattern
given them as formulated by Crosbie and those that followed him.
Signing an associate card and leaving it on file at a ULT lodge does
not make one any different than before. When you describe how ULT
asssociates are you're talking about *the way they should be* according
to the way that organization was made. Individuals in the ULT are as
likely to fall short of the ULT ideal as those in the Adyar or Pasadena
T.S. to fall short of their organizations' respective ideals.
>So like the United States there is a rebeliousness against autocratic
>or dictatorial leadership.
The sense of rebellion may have come from Crosbie being unable to put
up with the strong emphasis on the arts on gardening and on being in
close touch with Mother Nature that Katherine Tingley made. People were
not allowed to spend all their time with books living in their heads
but were required to live a full-spectrum life at the Point Loma
commune.
As head of the Point Loma T.S. during the years when Crosbie was a devoted
and loyal member she may have required a bit too much of him leading
him to rebell and create the ULT.
Since the Adyar T.S. the Point Loma T.S. and the ULT all appeal to
different types of people it's fine that there are three groups. But
they should remain on the most cordial relationship with one another
and there would be nothing wrong with yet more theosophical groups
assuming they had a different specialization and weren't simply in
direct competition with one another.
>I recommended a space of its own where these important idealogical
>democratic issues could be addressed specifically and at length
>without getting entangled in discussions of the eroticism of seeing
>one's husband up to his elbows in soap suds at the kitchen sink.
We all have different interests. As an international group of students
from many different backgrounds we could have almost any topic come up.
And there is likely disagreement on anything that anyone may care to say.
But this is not bad. It encourages us to refine our thinking and sharpen
our words sharper in clarity and lucidity not sharper in biting hurtful
words. We become more expert at expressing the philosophy and better
able to promulgate Theosophy in the future.
>If anything I propose getting more organized. Distribute the TS information
>updates editorials voter issues etc. in a more formal matter making sure
>that as many members as possible are aware that a forum specifically created
>for the dissemination of this information has been established.
There are mailing lists that are thing way. Like the one for Project
Gutenberg there may be thousands or tens of thousands of subscribers.
The list is moderated and the moderator edits and passes on suitable
messages. Otherwise there would be too much duplicated and unrelated
materials for people to separate the useful from the useless.
We don't have this volume problem. If only we had tens of thousands
of participants! Then we could break apart into dozens of on-line lodges
and individuals could participate according to interest. As long as we
remain steady at about 100 subscribers though this won't happen.
>My delete key works just fine but there may be those people who do not
>want to wade through the other stuff but would rather go straight to a
>place where this information existed with someone in charge of the
>completeness timeliness and accuracy of the information.
Again it depends upon what one is interested in. Someone else may
use their for all the political stuff in much the same way
you delete some of the other topics.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 17 Dec 1996 23:56:22 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Ethical Apotheosis of Jerry
Jerry S:
>>Is the term "abyss" meant to imply a "dark night of the soul"
>>experience for those that cross it? Then it would be akin to
>>the western experience of transcending the personality of
>>rising to the pure experience of unqualified consciousness.
>They are different but similar thing. The Abyss is
>an objective "place" in the invisible worlds around us. It is
>the demarcation line between the upper three cosmic planes
>arupa and the lower four rupa.
Yes it exists on different scales of being. In us there's
an gap between
Auric Egg / Buddhi / Manas
and
Kama-Manas / Kama / Prana / Linga-Sharira
that corresponds to this gap in the planes. We have this
gap both within our constitution and externally in the
world in which we live.
>The Dark-Night-of-the-Soul
>is an anguishing experience that most of us go through at
>some point in which the human mind eventually
>comes to terms with the fact that its limited nature will never
>allow it to fully understand or comprehend the infinite spirit.
This happens when we recognize the emptiness of our external
life and start looking within for something more. That search
leads us to the Path and to an awakening spirituality.
It happens again in Initiation when we are separated from
our higher self our Manasaputra and become a Manasaputra
in our own right.
It happens at different situations in life when we step outside
our old limits and become something more.
>Technically the Abyss marks the end or beginning of
>the Ego not the ego/personality which is limited to the
>3rd plane. Thus the Abyss stands just above the
>Reincarnating Ego and just below the atma.
I wouldn't put it that high but rather place it somewhere
between higher and lower Manas. It separates the ordinary
sense of self and personality and the pure functioning of
mind where mind does not objectify the external world.
>>It would be more like a "sweet melting" leading
>>to a sense of "eternal delight" rather than a "dive into
>>the dark unknown" or a "shattering".
>It is "eternal delight" to atmic consciousness
>but the Abyss is a "dark unknown" of incoherence and
>insanity e.g. the unconscious to the ego/personality.
It depends upon how awake and pervasive the influence of the
higher principles are. If the qualities of Atma and Buddhi
are starting to prevade our constitution then it's more like
a fade-out of the lower and a fade-in of the higher with no
dark in-between space. We have the sweetness of the higher
in our lives and we shift our emphasis to it. This is different
than when the higher principles are mostly mute in our external
personality. In that case it's like a jump into the unknown
betcause there's no continunity. In one case Atma and Buddhi
are present and still persent in increasing intensity as the
lower principles fade out to the background. In the other case
Atma and Buddhi are not realized and one is fading out from
the lower principles and moving into a black unknown an abyss
with no qualities of consciousness perserving a continunity over
the transition.
>It is exactly what the ego sees when it faces the
>unconscious in Jungian terms. Not a pretty sight
>because the ego sees its own death within.
But the ego doesn't die. It's just I think it improves.
It creates the everyday maya of an objective material world.
This and other byproducts of its existence which cloud our
minds and darken our hearts -- all disappear. The personality
becomes a clear lens to view life through rather than a narrow
box to be locked up within.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 00:57:13 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Theosophy and Democracy
At 055400 AM 12/18/95 -0500 Keith Price wrote:
> To what extent are theosophical organizations and democracy compatible?
>To what extent is theosophy compatible with organization and
>institutionalization? I ask these questions as I am tangentially aware of the
>concerns over the proposed change in by-laws as well as other larger issues.
<<>>
> To what extent
>are the proposed by-law changes consistent with our overall mission?
>
>Namste
>Keith Price
>
> Keith:
You have raised some valid and fundamental issues. I have been
around Theosophy for several years. From what I have seen the lodges and
study centers have always functioned most autonomously and democratically.
>From the early days of TS even this is the case.
It is only recently I have seen that there is an attempt to
introduce some structure and the bylaws currently proposed is a quantum leap
in that direction. From the point of branch autonomy and day to day
functioning the most serious change is in the financial area that the
National Headquarters in the US seeks to impose. Even though the motivation
may be good the changes if implemented have a great potential to cripple
and/or paralyze the functioning of the lodges. These changes can be and in
all probability will be used to control the type of programs carried out in
the lodges and for all practical purposes most of the fianancial decisions
have to have the "Amen" of the National Board.
Added to the above is the fact is the sudden change in the strategy
of how these changes are proposed and to be voted. As I pointed out in an
earlier message in the past when changes are proposed they are first
published in AT and several months time was available for members and lodges
and study centers to discuss all the issues surrounding the proposed
changes. After this it is presented to the Annual Meeting and then later a
referendum voted upon. In the changes currently proposed the procedure now
adopted by the National Board the members discussion of the issues and
dissemination of any dissenting opinions were truncated to the point of
elimination. Moreover not much explanation and information is forthcoming
from the National Board as to specific background reasons why the changes
are proposed so that we can explore why the problems cannot be handle by
some other way. When specific issues like the sale of Boston Lodge were
raised they were dismissed by simply saying the issues are too complex as
if some of us cannot understand complex matters.
Overall as I had indicated in my mailout as well as my posting
here the only best way to make any necessary changes yet preserve the
autonomy of lodges and unity of membership is to REJECT every change
proposed. Let us go back to square one and start all over again.
This may be the only and last chance we all may have for a long time
to save TSA as we have known in the past.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 01:10:35 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: John Algeo's Letter to Members
At 102900 PM 12/15/95 -0500 JEM wrote:
>
>hi -
>
>Since Theos-L has so much e-mail and such varied audience I am
>rather sensitive to any complaints about the volume of TSA-By-laws
>e-mail.
><>
>
>I thought I'd just toss that out as an idea.
>
>anyway theos-roots and theos-buds have been slow lately.
>
>peace -
>
>john mead
>
>p.s. I just received a letter from Dr. Algeo which was sent to all TSA members
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>regarding the By-laws change. This is itself rather interesting. :-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have not received it yet. If you or any one else who has received it can
post it here it would help if the letter is not too long.
...doss Scribed at 8.00 am cdt - 12/16/95
s first to publish the
resolution on bylaws in AT to provide a window of five months during which
members could discuss and after due discussion and after consideration at an
annual meeting the bylaws are put to the membership by referendum. The steps
and the time line and the objectives are very clear.
In 1995 under the new leadership the changes are being
roadrollered with no time for any member discussions with a hurried
referendum. The changes that were considered in 1993 were generally more
cosmetic than substantial. Even so Dorothy Abbenhouse trusted members and
found it wise and practical to provide ample opportunity for members to
fully discuss them before they are implemented. This simply shows that she
was approaching the changes in a very open and cooperative spirit and
attitude as it should be since the cooperation of every member will go a
long way to keep the unity and strength of TSA.
Lo and behold the changes proposed in 1995 that is being voted. The
changes are very very substantial in terms of their impact on the rights and
previleges/autonomy of members and lodges and concentration of authority at
National level for financial micromanagement of the affairs of the lodges
and study centers thus providing an effective tool for Wheaton to exert
pressure on the types of programs and activities of lodges and study centers
will be able to carryout.
The National President has a responsibility to consult with the
members when such major fundamental changes are proposed. And also there is
an urgent need to explain to the membership in a convincing manner why this
180 degree turn from the past the procedure effectively cutting of
discussion by membership. The speed with which these changes are
roadrollered appears to give the impression that there is a rush to seize
control that a quick passage the new bylaws will provide.
Wake up fellow members before it is too late.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 04:27:24 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Copy of: Sidetorture to Eldon
Malcolm:
>An observation of mine is about the relatioship bewteen thought and its
>translation into words. The observation is that the 'thoughts' are
>independent of thier translation into words; that thoughts exists before
>their translation.
This is true. Words express a thought but cannot fully contain it. We
could all have the same idea about a chair for instance but come up
with entirely different words to describe it. It's much harder when we
are trying to come up with words about metaphysical realities.
>Thoughts seam to appear in a whole lump it seems to take time and
>concentration to make the transistion into words.
The same is true with feelings. We could have a feeling and then try
to put it into words. The words partially describe it but always
fall short.
A thought as you say comes in a flash. Then it takes time to describe
it. But as we are attempting to put it into words we are also working
out its relationship with other thoughts and working on fitting it into
the big picture of how we understand life. The greater the concrete
expression that we give to the thought the more real more self-conscious
more lucid it becomes.
>I am not not multilingual so would like input from anyone that is - "Do
>thoughts exist independantly of the language you are thinking in?".
It would seem so. How else would we understand Eastern ideas like
reincarnation and karma? How else would there be universal principles
of life found in the various great philosophies and world religions --
regardless of the language they are clothed in?
>Also there is the experience of 'not being able to find the word' ie
>the thought exists before its linguistic expression.
This is a good example of the thought coming first before it is
clothed in words. But the thought becomes much more real when we
do find the proper words for it.
>I don't know how to analyse this in terms of higher mind / lower
>mind / brain etc. Does anywone haeve any input?
I'd say that in both the higher and lower mind there is the ability
to know things directly to have flashes of understanding that come
before the words. And there is the ability to put into words these
flashes. The distinction between the higher and lower minds has to do
with abstract versus applied thought. The lower kama-manas deals
with the mind engaged in specific acts and activities in the external
world. The higher buddhi-manas deals with the mind engaged in pure
thought in abstract mathematics and philosophy in words about the
inner nature of life.
I'd say that both higher and lower mind have the ability to put things
into words as well as to know things directly or be lucid and transparent
and understand things in a flash. One deals with the inner nature of
life; the other deals with the life in the external world.
>Anyway I have used this as a technique of meditation:- to try and stay in
>that space where thoughts are thoughts but before they become words. I
>found it a very effective way to 'quiet the mind' and gain insites into the
>mind's working.
Another technique might be to leave the mental voice alone. Ignore the
mind's narration. Look to the *flashes*. Rather than thinking of it as
a space before thoughts become clothed in words consider it as fireworks
that are always going off regardless of the narration. Look at the
brilliance of the ideas. There's no need to silence the narration since
you'd be paying attention to something else it would appear quiet due
to your lack of attention.
>You can gain also gain an appreciation of the 'problems' of the translation
>service. There is certainly and reduction and compression happening.
The purpose of the translation is not to completely represent the thought
in words because that would not be possible. Rather it is to associate
enough of the thought with the words that the words by sympathetic magic
evoke the same thought in the reader/listener. It is more like an act of
magic than like literal communication.
>This also opens up ideas about communictaion and its limitations - great
>communicators seem to transmitt the thought as a whole to their audience and
>communicate more than the sum of their words.
These communicators are therefore powerful magicians! They evoke in the
audience things that remain otherwise hidden. And it's the very same thing
that we try to do with ourselves as we read the theosophical books! We
attempt to evoke the grand thoughts that remain hidden behind the words on
the printed page to perform the same magic upon ourselves!
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 04:33:08 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Coherence
writes:
>
>> >On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
>> >poster on the list. Sort of like a nude beach with one clothed
>> >person. You may have good reasons for this but when you make
>> >condescending remarks about other people on the list and their
>> >ideas it doesn't seem quite fair to do it from a pseudonym.
>> >Or rather perhaps the pseudonym strengthens the impression
>> >that you are looking down on us/me/some of us/whatever. Could
>> >you consider revealing your identity? It might change the
>> >energy flow.
>
>If you send an e-mail to listserv@vnet.net with the words
>
>review theos-l
>
>as the body of the text you will find coherence@aol.com listed
>as Gregory D. Hoskins though Mr. Hoskins is not necessarily by
>this definition the same person who posts to theos-l.
>
>However Bee I agree with what you say above.
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
>I am glad you agree but I am not responsible for the above. I can't
remember who posted it but it wasn't little old me. Coherence is ok which
ever name he wants to talk under. If I had known that I didn't have to put
my proper name in that slot when I joined up to my server then I might have
got cute and thought up something profound instead of Bee Brown. :-D
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 06:29:11 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 90s pub stats by language
Continuing my research into WorldCat titles for various
religious movements of the 19th century.
One can search by any of a number of languages. A search for
book titles published in the 1990s about six religions in six
languages revealed the following:
English Spanish German French Russian Japanese
Mormon 1421 12 00 4 01 1
Adventist 925 32 08 3 01 1
Spiritualist 428 42 06 29 12 17
C. Science 239 03 3 02 1 01
Baha'i 203 07 1 01 0 00
Theosophy 118 20 09 4 32 00
For Theosophists this is an encouraging picture. In German
and Russian there are more new books on Theosophy than any
other of the 06 traditions. In Spanish French and English
Theosophy's publishing presence is comparable to those of
groups dozens of times larger.
For Baha'is it would appear that English-language works are
a disproportionately *high* percentage compared to other
groups or to Baha'i membership statistics. Raising questions
about database coverage.
Another search looked for new titles in the 1990s on the world
religions in all languages. The totals: Christianity 45034
Judaism 15649 Islam 10745 Buddhism 7432 Hinduism 3050
Sikhism 359 Baha'i 255. Even allowing for some distortion
caused by a North American databse this shows Judaism
Christianity and Buddhism to be producing far more literary
works in relation to their memberships than is found in the
cases of Islam Hinduism Sikhism and Baha'i. BTW a listing of the
titles under Islam shows them overwhelmingly in Arabic and
other non-European languages indicating OCLC's coverage.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 06:51:27 GMT
From: Aprioripa@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Alice A. Bailey; tenets
Hello Jim
Your answers seem right on to me about A.B.'s writings.
>4 I doubt that I'm the person to try and explain AAB's take on astrology.
:
Here's one definition paragraph:
''Esoteric astrology deals with the relationship of the soul to the
personality of the evolving consciousness and the form through which it
seeks expression as represented by and interpreted through the astrology
chart. Esoteric astrology uses a variety of rulerships for the signs in
conjunction with the seven rays to help in the understanding of this process.
Many theosophical writers have written books on the subject and the book
generally considered as the primary source for these ideas is "Esoteric
Astrology" by A. Bailey.
Also see the esoteric astrology web page and ftp site:
http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/esopsych.html
- Patrick
Holistic - http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/maininfo.html
Esoteric - http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/esopsych.html
Auras - http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/auras.html
Meditation - http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/service.html
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 07:26:59 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 07 Returns of Christ
Having wandered into the subject of comparative publishing
output for different 19th century religious movements I found
much more information than I went looking for. The immediate
reason for searching WorldCat was to compare Baha'i publishing
to that of comparable traditions. But in coming up with five
other examples and contemplating a sixth there is one
surprising implication: the theme of Christ's return runs
through all of them.
The Mormons most successful of 19th century religions claim
to have the restored gospel and the restored early Church.
Their prophecies include a fairly imminent return of Christ.
The Adventists 2nd most numerous have based their entire
movement on anticipation of the return. Baha'i teaching in
Western countries tends to center on Baha'u'llah's claim to be
the returned Christ. Christian Science sees its founder as
complementing the original gospel with new information about
Christ's message; her own spiritual status is ambiguous.
Spiritualism defines Jesus as a great medium and has produced
a large body of "channeled" material about him. Theosophy
emphasizes the law of cycles and various factions anticipate
or have anticipated cyclical teachers who in some sense are
seen as returns of Christ-- most notably Krishnamurti who
rejected the role. Theosophical offshoots like Anthroposophy
the Temple of the People and the Lucis Trust are even more
emphatic about the present being a time for Christ to return;
yet the return is often defined as a spiritual rather than
material event. Radhasoami another movement from the 19th
century teaches that its spiritual practices are the same
techniques implicit in the teachings of Jesus and can give
direct access to him. The work of Edgar Cayce recapitulates
themes from all seven of these traditions.
What is most interesting from the above facts in light of
publishing statistics is that contemporary vitality in
spiritual movements seems so connected to visions of Christ's
return conceived in a great variety of manners. Regardless of
the dubious accuracy of most claims made on behalf of this
event it is revealing about our time in history that this
theme is so prevalent. If we define the Christ as an archetype
of the collective unconscious it seems fair to say that He/It
*has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above.
Returned in many new forms and with conflicting messages.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 11:06:35 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Christmas Card
"That which is a mystery
shall no longer be so
and that which has been veiled
will now be revealed;
that which has been withdrawn
will emerge into the light
and all men shall see
and together they shall rejoice."
- Old Commentary
A very Merry Christmas Solstice Hannukah & A Happy New Year!
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 13:05:57 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Practical lessons & guidance
At 044600 PM 12/15/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Doss:
>>From a lay man's point of view even if the disclaimer was signed
>>if a participant in one of the programs gets sick at a future date
>>a smart tenacious and expensive Chicago lawyer knowing the
>>deep pockets of TSA may chose to pin down liability on TSA
>>citing past theosophical writings/publications such as
>>the one's I cited. The lawyers defending TSA would do so with
>>great glee as they know they can generate a lot bills and TSA
>>has money in the bank to pay the bills. More litigation more bills.
>
>If someone chokes on a piece of carrot in the Olcott dining room or claims he
>caught salmonella from a bad salad dressing then anyone could sue for almost
>anything. If the maintenance crew fails to clear the snow and ice off the
>walkway and entrance to the building and someone falls some one can yell
>"SUE!" Some parent can sue TS for poisoning the mind of their child with
>theosophy. You could sue Olcott for giving you sore feet climbing up those
>steps to the auditorium. The possibilites are endless and no amount of
>prevention is going to help. Cross your fingers do the best you can and hope
>your aspects are good.
>
>Ann E. Bermingham
>
Sure all of the above and more is possible. Prudence requires risk
issues need to be deliberately looked at and with the best professional help
decisions have to be taken. What all I am pointing out is that this is an
issue that Wheaton "may" want to look at. If Wheaton had no money or assets
at all then most of the risk problems just go away. They do not when you
have deep pocket.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 13:11:06 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: TS Elections
Hi
I understand that the nomination papers are under circulation in
various parts of the country for the election of the Board of Directors of
TSA. If any of you know who are all running please post a msg here. If you
chose you can send me a e-mail directly to ramadoss@eden.com.
..doss
Resent at 7.10pm on 12/18/95
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 13:12:41 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cryptocracy
In a message dated 95-12-16 030905 EST you write:
> Anyway let me be clear-- ULT is *governed* by a cryptocracy the
>board of the Theosophy Company in many important respects
>even if the ULT itself is free of officers or by-laws. Better?
Well no it's still not correct. The Theosophy Co. the publishing arm for
the United Lodge of Theosophists and title holder to certain but not all
ULT assets has a board yes. Those board members are the older students of
the Los Angeles Lodge of ULT and probably do greatly influence the Los
Angeles Lodge by virtue of the dual roles these people play. But they have
no control whatsoever over any other Lodge. All ULT lodges and study groups
are autonomous and independent each being run locally by the students with
no accountability to The Theosophy Co.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 13:20:32 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Coherence
In a message dated 95-12-18 180701 EST you write:
In a message dated 95-12-17 183921 EST you write:
>>On a related matter-- Coherence you're the only anonymous
>>poster on the list. Sort of like a nude beach with one clothed
>>person. You may have good reasons for this but when you make
>>condescending remarks about other people on the list and their
>>ideas it doesn't seem quite fair to do it from a pseudonym.
>>Or rather perhaps the pseudonym strengthens the impression
>>that you are looking down on us/me/some of us/whatever. Could
>>you consider revealing your identity? It might change the
>>energy flow.
>>If you send an e-mail to listserv@vnet.net with the words
>>review theos-l
<>as Gregory D. Hoskins though Mr. Hoskins is not necessarily by
>>this definition the same person who posts to theos-l.
HORRORS!!! Unmasked!!! NAKED!!! Exposed!!!
Now I ask you several things:
1 Do you think the energy flow will really change?
2 Why was it so important to know a NEW PSEUDONYM as opposed to the old
one?
3 Was this a correct ethical move? i.e. to uncover and announce the
identity of one who chose to remain anonymous not to hide but to keep the
focus on ideas.
4 What if you would have discovered something you would have rather NOT
known?
Beware what you ask for.
I bet you hunted and shook all your Christmas packages when you were small.
Another comment you accuse me of hiding behind a screen name so that I can
make condescending remarks about people and ideas which I don't think I
have. But you do not consider that my screen name has not shielded my
feelings when people have been condescending to me and my ideas. So which
way does the issue cut? You also fail to note that I never use the
participants name in my replies or comments but speak to the idea..
This makes theosophy useful as a great source of
>meaningful archetypal structures or as you say metaphors from which to
>construct a viable worldview.
RI
Yes Jerry but even I get nervous when I start using terms like *metaphors*
or *analogs* with regard to certain esoteric ideas. Take reincarnation for
example. While it is a useful and pleasant surprise to realize that one can
regard waking up each morning--complete with all the uncorrected personal
tendencies physical emotional and mental consequences of what one has done
the day before ready to greet you etc.--as a type of "reincarnation" it is
difficult if one is a serious meditator to continue to hold the view that
the grander theosophical idea with *skandhas* *karma* etc. is merely the
result of someone making a cosmic metaphor out of the more mundane insight.
No theosophical "metaphors" seem to have a way of slowly and I think
*validly* hypostatizing themselves despite how much one fights against them.
But *slowly* seems to be the operative word here however. Accepting these
colossal theosophical systems in one big fast gulp may be the formula for
passionate desire-mental belief but it is not the recipe for Inner Certainty
about them. Something like true conviction about reincarnation does not
arrive fully clothed in glorious raiment and with the fanfare of a royal
parade; rather it is at first dressed in rags and "lurks" quietly but
persistently around the psyche. Since it will not go away no matter how much
common experience and strict logic is used against it it slowly but
inexorably establishes itself as a theosophical "fact" against which no
argument can henceforth prevail.
Yes Jerry there may be many who say they "believe" in more theosophical
ideas than I do but perhaps not so many who are held so fast by a few. . . .
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 17:18:13 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Coherence
On 18 199512 Coherence@aol.com wrote:
> Now I ask you several things:
>
> 01 Do you think the energy flow will really change?
Slightly but yes IMO.
> 02 Why was it so important to know a NEW PSEUDONYM as opposed to the old
> one?
Perhaps because the "Nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of
Humanity" can only be formed from relationships between *people* messy
as they get who will always be far more than bundles of abstract ideas
floating through space.
> 03 Was this a correct ethical move? i.e. to uncover and announce the
> identity of one who chose to remain anonymous not to hide but to keep the
> focus on ideas.
Somewhat of a disingenuous argument is it not? Though I wasn't
the one seeking your name I find it rather odd that you would question
the ethics of simply using the `review' function on listserver software.
Your name wasn't "uncovered" ... its "announced" every time someone gets
the list. If you *did* wish to remain anonymous it takes but one command
to supress your name from the public list. You didn't. `Tis a tad odd to
question the ethics of people for knowing what your living room looks like
when you keep the curtains open and the lights on is it not?
> 04 What if you would have discovered something you would have rather NOT
> known?
> Beware what you ask for.
A *warning* about knowing something? What could anyone *possibly*
discovered that might have been upsetting in simply finding out who you were?
> I bet you hunted and shook all your Christmas packages when you were small.
I sure did. As well as the vast majority of American children
past and present. There is something wrong with this?
> Another comment you accuse me of hiding behind a screen name so that I can
> make condescending remarks about people and ideas which I don't think I
> have. But you do not consider that my screen name has not shielded my
> feelings when people have been condescending to me and my ideas. So which
> way does the issue cut? You also fail to note that I never use the
> participants name in my replies or comments but speak to the idea..
Not using the name doesn't mean the person is not being attacked.
Surely you have some personal involvement in at least some of your ideas
or you would not say "my" ideas or experience any sense of
condescension and hence may feel attacked when people go after them ...
just as others may feel attacked. Impersonal vocabulary is certainly
capable of thinly veiling harsh personal intent.
> easily
> Is this true? I don't think so. The idea will speak to those receptive to
> it regardless of the traditional or non-tradional pseudonym. Would you trust
> me more or would my comments have more validity if you discovered my real
> name was "Flock-of-Birds-by-the-Lake"? William Q. Judge did most of the
> writing of his lifetime behind pen names. The Masters did not use their
> "real" names. Your comment does not jive with the history of the movement.
> Names are meaningless. They identify only which "Coherence" did nicely.
But this is a discussion list the cyberspace equivilent of a
Lodge meeting ... not a book. WQJ may well have written under pen names
but did not attempt to use pseudonyms when he was actually engaged with
discussions with people. And as so far as the "history" goes that vast
majority of Theosophical writers including HPB herself certainly did
use their real names. Names are only meaningless if you believe all
Theosophy is is pure impersonal abstract ideation.
And for instance I believe the post of yours that caused your
name to be questioned had political overtones to it ... and I would say
the source of such comments is *quite* relevant; if for instance that
long legal post a couple of weeks ago had been posted anonymously I
would have been *damn* curious to know who had written it ... as the
fact that it was written by in essence a spokesperson for Algeo means
it is evaluated quite differently than if it had been written by Eldon
or KPJ or Jerry either one -:.
> I am Gregory D. Hoskins says boldly beats chest
Good to meet you.
While I certainly grasp that various aspects of the path fill people with
the urge to supress the personality which might as one of its
expressions find the supression of the personality's name to make sense
at least I know more than one friend for whom this is the case ... but
there are also other possibilities. A person for instance might like
the mysterious aura that surrounds anonymity ... might even if they were
insecure about their thoughts believe that anonymity actually lends some
weight to them.
In fact the history of occult literature is full of people using pseudonyms
and anonymity for a whole variety of reasons many of them not all that
elevated. There is almost an entire genre of second rate "occult and
mystical" whose authors fill the titles with words like "Secret" and who
write anonymously because of the titillating air of the mystic that such
devices lend ... and as publishers know it quite often *works*. Just a
sec let me get an example ....
Ah yes ha ha- a gift from a friend who gave it to me as a joke:
_The Encyclopedia of Ancient and Forbidden Knowledge_ ... subtitled "The
complete guide to the Occult" imagine! only $3.50 in paperback! what a
*deal*! -:. It is by "Zolar" who honors us his students tee hee
with the following final paragraph in the "about the author" page:
"This book is the culmination of Zolar's years of study
research and expertise. He is seldom seen because he feels that reality
is a disillusionment. He prefers to be simply "Zolar" the name everyone
knows - the person never seen".
[And I might add that after reading but the first chapter I too
felt that reality was a disillusionment -:].
While I don't believe that your motives are anything closely
resembling his still you must admit that the world of esotericism is
perhaps more than any other field of thought and letters filled with
people using psuedonyms and perhaps the majority them fall far closer to
"Zolar" than to WQJ ... its far more often a device to *get* attention
than to deflect it.
Besides if your motive was purely to keep attention on ideas
and away from personalities on a list where everyone but yourself *uses*
their name is not the use of the psuedonym *more* likely to attract
attention to your person? Regardless of what your intention was you
differentiated not your ideas but *yourself* by attempting to remain
anonymous in a discussion ... creating a situation something like a
person standing in a room of people and shouting "*Don't pay any
attention to me*!". Your motive IMO is more likely to be accomplished
by simply using your name than by not using it.
Regards -JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 20:39:56 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Uranus in Aquarius' Net
TO ANN B.:
I usually don't talk about astrology because a lot of people aren't interested.
But many theosophists take it not literally but as another symbolic key like
the tarot or the kabala et. Thanks for pointing out that Uranus will be moving
into Uranus in Jan. 1996. This will modify the influence of Capricorn on large
social issues as is the want of the outter planets I'm told. Uranus will be
moving into his own sign wow! I think this will be the dawning of major cyle
of Aquarius in our present cyle but not the age of Aquarius according to the
precession of equinoxes of course.
I think the interent will continue to be a world-wide social influence on the
scale that rock music was in the sixites. It wil be a linking of the great and
small minds of the world. It will create an electronic nervous system or
noosphere for humanity and humanitie's mentality is part of the noosphere of
Gaia. Will it be used for political scheming and crass comercialism? You bet!!
But does it have the potential for increasing the sprititual and mental
vibrations of the entire planet? Yeah I think so? What we are doing is being
expanded and will continue to offer new ways for people to link spiritually. We
percipitate letters seemingly easier than the Masters did. No need for
cabinets in India at al with Windows 95.
Have other people tried all the "spiritual"? software out there? There are
all kind of programs that attempt to put the iching tarot kabala numerology
meditation and many other things on the computer? I think they are mostly toys
but many are quite informative and fun. What would a practical theosophy
program look like? New Age music mandalas meditation history and quotes
from Blavatsky and maybe a few vegetarian recipes?
Don DeGracia has a good brief "Introduction to Theosophy" as a WIndows help
file type program. There was talk some time back about having a Sega type
theosophy game remember that? Kind of like Master of the 07 Globes in Spiritual
Immortal Kombat or something. But would KH make a goood action figure?
Groan
But seriously something tells me that the computer mulit-media really could be
used in some ways to have a positive spiritual impact the way TV rap rock and
violent computer games have a negative spiritual impact increasing violence
rape and a variety of negative thoughtforms. Generation X seems to be as
interactive as the baby boomers are passive remember staring blankly at all
those episodes of "I Love Lucy"? well the computer games demand attention and
movement
I'm kinding of brainstorming as you can tell. Has anyone gottten results with
Blavatsky's Diagram of Meditation? If I remember it is in full color and
attempts to focus the mind in buddhi-manas while rooting or suspending the other
principles. Now that might be an interesting project! The computers could be
perhaps used to draw one into deeper levels on one's spirituality as the current
games have levels of physical conflict. I have used the video tapes of the
Mandelbrot and Julia Fractal Sets as an open eyed meditation. Someone is going
to come up with something with Uranus in Aquarius.
Namaste
Keith Price
Namaste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 23:01:14 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: On Using Names
Coherence and/or Gregory:
>> [not sure who wrote this]
>>I do encourage people to use their "real" names. This actually gives their
>>comments more validity. People who speak from "behind the curtain" are
>>easily ignoredand assumed untrustworthy.
>Is this true? I don't think so. The idea will speak to those receptive to
>it regardless of the traditional or non-tradional pseudonym.
By not wanting to use your personal name you are following the traditional
ULT approach. If you were to carry it to an extreme you and perhaps other
ULT members on 'theos-l' would all sign their email "A Student" and leave
us guessing who said what.
If you were strictly quoting HPB then it does not matter which person
is reading the quote. But if you are writing *your* ideas and understanding
it's important to know you and how you think.
The reason that it's important to know the personality of the speaker
is that despite all attempts to pass on the pure philosophy and not
interject opinion a personal element creeps in. If we know the person
we can take their particular bias into account.
In addition we're not all attempting to speak straight textbook Theosophy.
Most of us are expressing our personal views and understandings and
there's quite a lot of ideas being tossed around that may conflict with
the core teachings. We have an experimental laboratory where we can take
the ideas apart and see how we can put them together again. This is
different than a lecture platform where basic Theosophy is being taught
and where one is expected to be faithful to the teachings when claiming
to be teaching them.
>Would you trust me more or would my comments have more validity if you
>discovered my real name was "Flock-of-Birds-by-the-Lake"?
The name that you're known by is not as important as the fact that you
always use the name so that you can be known and understood.
>William Q. Judge did most of the writing of his lifetime behind pen
>names.
He may have wanted to create the appearance of a more active American
Section in order to inspire hope in members and encourage them to
greater work. How would his magazine look if most of the articles
were written by him?
>The Masters did not use their "real" names.
They certainly would not want the general public to know their true
identities. But they also did not all hide behind a single pseudonym
like "A Master". KH signed his letters as such and so did Morya.
>Names are meaningless. They identify only which "Coherence" did nicely.
Our birthname has a psychological significance. It affects how we
are perceived by others as we grow up. And if we engage in a spiritual
practice like taking various vows to become a practicing Buddhist we
may get another name which has particular significance. In this case
the name has a meaning and the meaning is meant to say something about
our special role in life.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 23:19:04 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Dark Night of the Soul
Lewis:
>The idea that it the change in us is a gradual one seems to
>contradict other ideas that indicate that enlightenment or awakening
>to the next level is a sudden break through in consciousness.
There are two ways to picture our growth. One is according to the
gradual school. In this approach we slowly persistently with
sustained effort grow towards an eventually awakening.
In the sudden school we can achieve an immediate realization. It
can come as quickly as the popping of a balloon.
I'd say that both approaches describe different aspects of the process.
We do ripen over time. A flowerbud slowly grows to maturity; it is
not immediately ready to open. But we also have a dramatic awakening.
The flowerbud one day is mature and opens to the sunlight. Both the
*process* of growth over time is needed as well as the dramatic
breakthrough.
As an analogy I think of my 14-month-old boy. He is now a toddler
having just started getting serious about walking in the last week.
For many months he was standing up and holding onto things and getting
ready to start walking. One day with sufficient readiness he took
some steps and started to walk. One moment he was a crawler the
next a walker. The dramatic nature of the change came in a moment
but the growth and ripening happened over many months.
My discussion with Jerry S. on the dark night of the soul though
was not with regard to how sudden or dramatic the experience is.
I mentioned that if there is sufficient experience of the higher
principles there is no "dark night" when one shifts away from the
lower. One has been embraced in Atma-Buddhi and continues to be
embraced in it during the transition so it is not seen as a time
of darkness and abandonment. There is not a feeling of collapse when
the mind stops creating an objective world because the *something more*
has already been filling one's nature. The transition is sudden
dramatic but not like the scared jump that we might do when someone
unexpectedly pops a balloon! It's more like an immediate gasp of
amazement when gazing upon something incredibly beautiful.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 23:36:06 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
RI:
>It's pretty obvious that "France" is not nearly as closed or private of a
>belief since it can be validated by most people who are willing to follow
>the directions of the map makers and go there.
Some things are easier to validate than others but still possible. If
something is hard to validate or would require personal training and
preparation would it therefore become a "private and closed belief"?
If you have never seen a particular country you have not validated the
idea. Your belief that the country exists would be a matter of logic
and would be based upon information provided you which you trust. The
idea would be as unproven as that of the Masters.
>This is the first time I have heard anybody say that the existence of
>Masters is the kind of idea which "could be considered as scientific
>knowledge"; I suppose however you simply mean it in the same sense
>as the "Abominable Snowman"--that is if they ever find it they will
>be able to see it etc.
You might compare the idea to that of the Abominable Snowman if you
thought it highly unlikely. I might compare the idea to the existence
of France if I thought it likely.
The reality of something in the world does not depend upon how easy
it is for us to personally validate it. If something is not true unless
a majority of people can readily validate it then much of what we'd
call scientific knowledge would have to be rejected. Many would take
more than a single lifetime to acquire the necessary knowledge to
understand much less experimentally verify the more advanced areas
of science. But science does not become untrue and the more advanced
researchers are not followers of a closed private view about life.
Theosophy deals with things that are more difficult to realize than
research in advanced science. Many lifetimes of preparation may be
required to make progress with it. There is a mystical side to it
but it also deals with the invisible hidden side of nature parts of
objective reality that are normally inaccessible to us.
>Also allow me get rid of *arbitrary* and change the wording a little so we
>can agree on our "first category of ideas." Thus: *Mystical insights
>dealing with things basically unknowable any other way*.
An understanding of Parabrahm falls in the first category that of
personal mystical experience. The existence of the Masters as living
flesh-and-blood people is not mystical but ordinary knowledge. I'd
define them as people more advanced than the Buddhist Arhat and less
than the Buddhist Bodhisattva. And all of these people are somewhat
less advanced than the Buddha a real person.
Where there might be some disagreement would be on the attributes and
powers of such a person. We have two extreme views from all-powerful
angels on the one hand to exceptional ordinary people as depicted in
Paul Johnson's books. I'd tend to put them somewhere in the middle on
the scale.
>--I am never one for biting the theosophical hand that feeds us all ...
Unless you think that the hand is empty and not likely to offer any
more food! I'd still getting fed though so I'm well behaved.
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 18 Dec 1996 23:37:14 GMT
From: eldon@theosophy.com Eldon B. Tucker
Subject: Re: trust problem what to do now
JHE:
>I believe that members of the TS indeed have a responsibility to
>speak up when they see an injustice and to make an honest effort
>to discern the issues and to vote.
In reading over the discussion over Wheaton and theosophical
politics I've been wondering what we should do about things.
>From what I've read on theos-l I'm led to wonder if the TSA itself
is in the same danger as any lodge. If it changes its bylaws could
it be as subject to being shut down by Radha?
If we want more independence the place to start would be in
Wheaton itself. If it could protect itself legally from Adyar
assert its autonomy and grant the same right to its branches
then things would be safer for the future. If there is too
much centralized control there's always the danger that someone
will eventually come along get into power and mess things up.
This is regardless of the trust we may have in the current
leadership.
But what happened the last time the American Section asserted
autonomy in the TS? Olcott expelled it. Judge was the head at
the time and ended up the international president of YATS Yet
Another T.S.
What is the purpose of centralized control? I'd assume to maintain
some form of ideological purity. This is because of the open nature
of the groups where no particular belief is required of members
nor program of study imposed upon groups. Groups like Tibetan
Buddhist sects preserve their philosophy from generation to generation
by formalizing it into a dogma and by having a class of experts
learn it and pass it on.
There seems to be a mixed message in theosophical groups. On
the one hand we're told we can beleve in anything that we want.
But on the other hand if we say something too different we're
likely to get shunned or in some cases shown the door.
I'd tend to see any conflict as being over two possible roles for
theosophical groups. In one role we have a well-defined body of
theosophical doctrines. The purpose of the group is to promulgate
these teachings although it is done in an open manner with no
required beliefs. Members are considered students of the philosophy.
In the other role we have no well-define body of doctrines but
rather have a "seekers' club" where everyone gets together to
assist each other with their personal quests. The organization does
not exist to promote any specific doctrines. Everyone is free to
read study and share whatever they find of interest. The
theosophical literature has no special status either at the
platform or at the printing presses.
Both types of organizations serve useful purposes. They could
readily exist side-by-side. I'm not sure though how well a single
T.S. can accomplish both at the same time. Perhaps our various
theosophical groups can specialize in different directions each
filling some important need.
For any problems that we may have with Wheaton I'd suggest
an approach that focuses on providing positive feedback. We
can provide useful ideas along with our reasons for them. This
may be saying the same thing that we might otherwise have said
in harsher words. A confrontational approach gets people to
raise barriers become defensive and stop listening. A different
manner of communication with tact can be more powerful in
getting a message across.
Apart from any discussion of specific things we've seen and
not liked could we discuss and come up with a list of
positive suggestions for changes in Wheaton's policies and
how the T.S. might better be run in the future?
-- Eldon
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 01:17:36 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Uranus in Aquarius' Net
At 020200 AM 12/19/95 -0500 Keith wrote:
>TO ANN B.:
>I usually don't talk about astrology because a lot of people aren't
interested.
>But many theosophists take it not literally but as another symbolic key like
>the tarot or the kabala et. Thanks for pointing out that Uranus will be
moving
>into Uranus in Jan. 1996. This will modify the influence of Capricorn on
large
>social issues as is the want of the outter planets I'm told. Uranus will be
>moving into his own sign wow! I think this will be the dawning of major cyle
>of Aquarius in our present cyle but not the age of Aquarius according to the
>precession of equinoxes of course.
>
>I think the interent will continue to be a world-wide social influence on the
>scale that rock music was in the sixites. It wil be a linking of the great and
>small minds of the world. It will create an electronic nervous system or
>noosphere for humanity and humanitie's mentality is part of the noosphere of
I am glad to see the astrological prediction regarding Internet. Any
of us who use Internet can see its future potential. Some of us even feel
that it is the the thing that is provided to the humanity in this last
quarter of the century. Just like telephone fax video confering equipment
Internet is the next tool of communication and transfer of information. I
have known people who have refused to use computers. You are going to have
people who refuse to use Internet. These are well educated grown up men and
women in all walks of life and professions. But the technology is going to
pass them by. A somewhat limited analogy is the difference between walking
and auto. While both are essential look how much auto has done to the
humanity in the area of transportation. In the area of information movement
and access Internet is going to do the same. Have you seen that ease of
information access and printing of your own newspapers which is just news
information predicted by CWL in his articles which appeared in the
Theosophist around 1909?
....doss
>Gaia. Will it be used for political scheming and crass comercialism? You bet!!
>But does it have the potential for increasing the sprititual and mental
>vibrations of the entire planet? Yeah I think so? What we are doing is being
>expanded and will continue to offer new ways for people to link
spiritually. We
>percipitate letters seemingly easier than the Masters did. No need for
>cabinets in India at al with Windows 95.
Keith:
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 04:54:45 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: Call for help on beginner books
Ann
I like the Key to Theosophy's question/answer format. It's a good
way for new people to get some idea of how a theosophist looks at
issues which often come up at meetings.
Is your friend interested in any particular subject? What is her
frame of reference? Science psychology anthropology or religion? I
usually recommend something which approaches theosophy from the
subject interests.
Lewis
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 05:17:09 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: Dark Night of the Soul
Jerry S.:
> >The Dark-Night-of-the-Soul
> >is an anguishing experience that most of us go through at
> >some point in which the human mind eventually
> >comes to terms with the fact that its limited nature will never
> >allow it to fully understand or comprehend the infinite spirit.
> >>It would be more like a "sweet melting" leading
> >>to a sense of "eternal delight" rather than a "dive into
> >>the dark unknown" or a "shattering".
>
Eldon:
> It depends upon how awake and pervasive the influence of the
> higher principles are. If the qualities of Atma and Buddhi
> are starting to prevade our constitution then it's more like
> a fade-out of the lower and a fade-in of the higher with no
> dark in-between space...
Lewis:
The idea that it the change in us is a gradual one seems to
contradict other ideas that indicate that enlightenment or awakening
to the next level is a sudden break through in consciousness. I once
heard the analogy of a finger being pressed inside a ballon. The
membrane stretches ever and ever thinner by the constant pressure
but the breakthrough occurs suddendly.
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 06:19:39 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Uranus in Aquarius
>TO ANN B.:
>I usually don't talk about astrology because a lot of people aren't
interested.
>But many theosophists take it not literally but as another symbolic key like
>the tarot or the kabala et. Thanks for pointing out that Uranus will be
moving
>into Uranus in Jan. 1996. This will modify the influence of Capricorn on
large
>social issues as is the want of the outer planets I'm told. Uranus will be
>moving into his own sign wow! I think this will be the dawning of major cycle
>of Aquarius in our present cycle but not the age of Aquarius according to the
>precession of equinoxes of course.
Alan Oken an esoteric astrologer had said that Uranus moving into Aquarius
would be Love/Wisdom linking with technology and that there would new insights
in research. Science and technology would cause humanity to know God. He also
predicted astrology would move into the mainstream but then he might be a tad
prejudiced about that.
>I think the internet will continue to be a world-wide social influence on the
>scale that rock music was in the sixties. . .
The departed Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead said ten years ago that
"Computers are the drugs of the eighties." There are now articles in the
newspaper about people that are spending 07 hours chatting on the Internet and
want to stop their addiction.
>But seriously something tells me that the computer multi-media really could be
>used in some ways to have a positive spiritual impact the way TV rap rock and
>violent computer games have a negative spiritual impact increasing violence
>rape and a variety of negative thoughtforms.
I don't feel the media causes negative behavior but simply reflects. All those
negatives energies that erupt into violent acts are within people. If everyone
ran around in a meditative state the media would reflect that state. The
negative reflection in the media then magnifies the negative potential already
there. Media could be used for educating people on how to modify their negative
impulses but alas the people that own the networks are blinded by ignorance or
the buck.
>Generation X seems to be as interactive as the baby boomers are passive
>remember staring blankly at all those episodes of "I Love Lucy"? well the
>computer games demand attention and movement
I was blankly watching "Wagon Train" in those days. Computer games also can be
addictive and pull a kid away from his homework and healthy outdoor play.
Feel free to post whatever you like in terms of astrological issues. I love it!
- Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 06:48:55 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Practical lessons & guidance
The problem is nowhere near what has been stated. Writing as one who deals
extenstively in practical work I can say that the legal advice both I and my
publishers have been given is that there is a virtual blanket of first
amendment protection for anything in this area. It is extremely doubtful
that any court would even entertain the suit in the first place and the
individual filing would be vulnerable to a counter-suit for conspiracy to use
the courts to impede free speech.
Chuck Cosimano
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 08:14:17 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Uranus in Aquarius
>snip>
>But the technology is going to pass them by. A somewhat limited analogy is the
>difference between walking and auto. While both are essential look how much
>auto has done to the humanity in the area of transportation. In the area of
>information movement and access Internet is going to do the same.
An even better analogy might be walking compared to public transportation buses
and trains which are less damaging to the environment. Trains can go much
faster than a car and carry groups of people. They also allow people who are
visually handicapped or unable to drive due to some other physical problem the
freedom to go where they want without depending on others to drive them. I
would think air transport would also be popular in the Aquarian Age.
- Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 12:09:43 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: TS Bylaws
Dear Fellow Members of TSA:
We have seen a lot of messages on TSA Bylaws Revision which is being
voted on my the members. There was a lingering notion in my mind that there
is still some aspects which are either not clear or does not fully make much
sense.
So I went back and reviewed the Early Autumn 1995 issue of The
American Theosophist in which the Bylaws Revision was published. There is an
elequent introduction to the changes which is commendable.
In re-reading the bylaws revisions there are three underlying yet
related factors cited when dealing with the substantial and fundamental
changes proposed. The are 01 General Council of TS has asked that certain
features be incorporated into all national rules 02 Requests by General
Council 03 To comply with international rules/regulations 04
International President has recommended certain provision be placed in
national bylaws.
Due to the citation of the above underlying/related factors there
appears to be a perception in the minds of some members that somehow the
General Council and International President are calling the shots and the
National Board is zealous in following them and trying to implement them
and that too in a very great hurry and without giving any time for
discussing them.
The General Council consists of representatives from all over the
world and many of them with long full time experience with Theosophical
Society and many of them have made great personal sacrifices for the cause
of Theosophy. Our International President also has made long-term full-time
personal sacrifice for the cause of Theosophy.
One can be sure that the General Council and International President
would have carefully analysed and deliberated all the issues over a period
of time before coming up with any recommendation to be suggested to National
Sections. The easy availability of the background information written as
well as informal on the recommendation would make all TSA members
intelligently understand the recommendations. So far we have not seen full
disclosure of any of this background information as well as any other
related facts.
The person who represents TSA in the General Council is the National
President. So he is privy to the above information and at least I am yet to
see him disclosing or communicating them to the general dues paying
Membership of TSA. Lack of such information makes it difficult to understand
what the recommendations of the General Council are and how they are sought
to be implemented in TSA. Such lack of information may be used by the
National Board to hide any well-intentioned zealous misguided impractical
implementation. One also may wonder what information is being withheld from
general membership and for what reason. It is a great puzzle. The way the
whole issue being approached also appears to give cover to the National
President and Board of Directors for unpopular and impractical unworkable
extreme changes proposed however well motivated they may be.
It is an injustice to the International President or General
Council or National President or the National Board to be misperceived by
the members of TSA due to lack of full disclosure of information. If such
potential misperceptions are not promptly and fully corrected by full and
immediate disclosure to members the effects are likely to linger for a long
time to the detriment of TSA and TS as some of these questions are not going
to go away easily. The price paid by TSA in terms of unity and cooperation
between members and Wheaton between lodges and Wheaton may be very
substantial and may hinder the the cause of Theosophy.
It is my humble hope that the National Board of TSA does something
and does it quickly before it is too late.
With seasons greetings
MK Ramadoss
PS: As most of the members of the National Board and the International
President are not on this newslist I am mailing a copy to them by Snailmail
for information.
Scribed at 6.00pm 191912 1995
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 13:07:16 GMT
From: jmeier@microfone.net Jim Meier
Subject: re: Neo-theosophy/TS
On 191412 Ann E. Bermingham wrote
>To all members of Theos-l:
>
>Today I visited the web site of The White Mountain Education Association whose
>address was posted by someone on our mailing list. It was referred to as
>Neo-theosophy.
>
>An amalgation of HPB Bailey Sarayadarian and Roerich it seemed to lean more
>towards Bailey. I will leave each of you to review the page for yourself
>http://www.primenet.com/~wtmtn/index.html but I will say this. While I was
>scrolling through the material I got a clear view of it. It was "I've seen
>this all before." It was like knowledge was being repackaged and being
>distributed through another yet another organization. Good or bad idea?
The opening graphics of this website are copied from the Balyos book Three
Remarkable Women. I thought that book was a nice easy introduction to the
lives of ... well three remarkable women Blavatsky Roerich Bailey. The
Bailey influence is prominent as you mentioned. Saraydarian is the most
mentioned reference in the suggested reading list and the Agni Yoga
teachings Roerich show up most often in the posted summaries of the
monthly articles in the White Mountain publications.
As to whether or not it is "a good idea" -- that depends. One of the most
important IMO ideas being kicked around now on theos-l is What is the
mission statement of the TSA? That is literal from one of the earlier posts
unanswered I think but it is implied in all of the discussions of the
proposed ByLaws changes and the effects they could have on TS future activities.
But about good or bad -- while the Theosophical Society in America and
elsewhere tries to come to grips with its current purpose and the means to
best achieve it "neotheosophy" doesn't seem to have the same problem. All
of the neotheosophy "schools" or at least the ones on that website have
this in common: the two things which are *most useful* for a person to know are
1 the Constitution of Man and
2 the means for that person to take whatever is for them the next step
forward.
So if we believe the instructions of Bailey or Saraydarian or Agni Yoga can
help an individual or group take a step in the right direction then they
are definitely a good idea. If we believe that they are a "dilution" of
theosophy or wrong in their emphasis then it's probably a bad thing.
For myself I wish there was a stronger section on Blavatsky but then I
felt the same way about the book. To be fair there is a homepage for
"orthodox" Theosophy; I don't believe there are homepages for either Bailey
Lucis Trust Saraydarian or the Agni Yoga Society are there? There is a
homepage for World Goodwill [www.oneworld.org/worldgoodwill] which is one
of the affiliated Lucis Trust activities but it is an NGO associated with
the United Nations and is not itself an organ for the promotion of the
Bailey teachings. The World Goodwill website is tied to oneworld.org which
is btw one of my favorite sites on the Net.
Jim
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 13:59:48 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: More Serious Nit Picking
Some responses and thoughts to RI:
:
>Yes Jerry but even I get nervous when I start using terms like *metaphors*
>or *analogs* with regard to certain esoteric ideas.
Me too. For one thing esoteric ideas can't be put into words very well
while metaphors and analogs can.
> Take reincarnation for example.
Yes. The metaphor is very simple and probably is expressed
best in the Gita where the analogy is to putting on a new coat. However
all serious practitioners who ask "Who is it that reincarnates?" knows
that the metaphor is too simplistic and that a lot more is really going on
here. Alan for example doesn't believe in reincarnation. In a way he is
correct--i.e. in the Buddhist sense of reincarnation there is no-thing
really to incarnate or re-incarnate. A. David-Neel for example says
that the highest Lamas do not believe in reincarnation in the popular
sense.
>No theosophical "metaphors" seem to have a way of slowly and I think
>*validly* hypostatizing themselves despite how much one fights against them.
Which is exactly why I used the term "archetypal" which I use
in the Jungian sense.
> Accepting these
>colossal theosophical systems in one big fast gulp may be the formula for
>passionate desire-mental belief but it is not the recipe for Inner Certainty
>about them
Right. I discovered this personally when I learned first-hand
that a mystical experience is but a first step on the path and not the
end at all. The problem is that our experience always tends to validate
our beliefs. So our experiences are always somewhat suspect. The
Buddha cautioned us to *doubt* and it is by holding a healthy doubt
about our experiences that we can slowly develop the inner Certainty
that you mentioned.
> Something like true conviction about reincarnation does not
>arrive fully clothed in glorious raiment and with the fanfare of a royal
>parade; rather it is at first dressed in rags and "lurks" quietly but
>persistently around the psyche.
True. In fact I don't think that we can ever reach inner
Certainty about reincarnation until we actually enter the 4th cosmic
plane shift identity to the Reincarnating Ego and see our past
lives directly i.e. gain magical memory. But even this has problems
as I pointed out above--our experiences are always suspect and
demand a fair amount of doubt. Not only that but our magical
memory is esoteric and the memory of the event after we return to
our mundane world is exoteric and already distorted.
> Since it will not go away no matter how much
>common experience and strict logic is used against it it slowly but
>inexorably establishes itself as a theosophical "fact" against which no
>argument can henceforth prevail.
Because there is a kernel of truth in it--an archetype Jung
calls this the archetype of rebirth that breaks into consciousness
in all ages and in all countries and peoples.
>Yes Jerry there may be many who say they "believe" in more theosophical
>ideas than I do but perhaps not so many who are held so fast by a few. . . .
Belief is a reflection of worldview and changes accordingly.
But when an archetypal idea such as rebirth or the Path becomes
constellated breaks out into consciousness in some form it demands
to be heard and assimilated. When such constellations occur that are
in opposition to our worldview or that challenge our worldview then we
are in serious psychological trouble. Jung took the view that this was
a major cause of mental illness. The answer is to always remain mentally
flexible like a child. Mental inflexibility is a pending death sentence.
Actually until we experience these archetypes directly e.g. they are
often expressed in our dreams but also in meditation they will remain
mere beliefs where we may or may not have an intuitive "feel" for them.
Their constellation is usually brought about because of specific
imbalances within the psyche such as experience that conflicts
with belief. The Self totally integrated psyche and ego form a
symbiotic relationship in which the Self sacrifices itself to ego
development during the first half of life and then the ego is supposed
to sacrifice itself via assimilation with the Self during the second
half of life. This is Jung's individuation process and the psyche is
seriously handicapped until this assimilation process occurs. This
is one of the many advantages of meditation. And we should all
watch our dreams closely because dreams are the primary feedback
mechanism of the psyche in which the Self feeds back information to
the ego to let it know how well it is doing.
Thanks for the stimulating conversation
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 13:59:52 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Night of the Soul
Lewis:
> The idea that it the change in us is a gradual one seems to
>contradict other ideas that indicate that enlightenment or awakening
>to the next level is a sudden break through in consciousness. I once
>heard the analogy of a finger being pressed inside a ballon. The
>membrane stretches ever and ever thinner by the constant pressure
>but the breakthrough occurs suddendly.
Modern science now recognizes this phenomenon under
the name of catastrophe theory. The idea has been known for ages
as the old saw about "the straw that broke the camel's back" shows.
I think that Eldon's response to the above is good and leaves
little to be said. In terms of the human mind gaining knowledge
through book learning is the slow additive process that will of itself
never break through the veil of the abyss. However it is an important
step that must be taken and I do not mean to denigrate it. I love
reading and studying. But sooner or later as the human mind
approaches the abyss it must leap over it and land on the other
side--this is of course a beautiful and poetic metaphor of what
really is going on. Eldon is right when he says that gradual
development preceeds the sudden jump. This idea is also
very popular in Zen.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 14:31:31 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Serious Nit Picking
ET
>We have two extreme views from all-powerful
>angels on the one hand to exceptional ordinary people as depicted in
>Paul Johnson's books. I'd tend to put them [existing Masters] somewhere in
the >middle on the scale.
RI
Eldon It's dangerous to draw Paul in on my side against you . . .
Perhaps if you could list three or four specific concrete things you think
an existing Master of your conception would be able to DO as a result of
advanced knowledge development etc. that let us say a Jerry Schueler is
not able to do it would be helpful in determining whether or not we have
something to disagree on.
Naturally I am always ready to confer some degree of Adept status on anyone
whose meditative or other transcendental practice has enabled him or her to
be more successful in life than he or she would have been without it.
ET
>The reality of something in the world does not depend upon how easy
>it is for us to personally validate it. If something is not true unless
>a majority of people can readily validate it then much of what we'd
>call scientific knowledge would have to be rejected. Many would take
>more than a single lifetime to acquire the necessary knowledge to
>understand much less experimentally verify the more advanced areas
>of science. But science does not become untrue and the more advanced
>researchers are not followers of a closed private view about life.
>
RI
But the history of science shows us that most "scientific knowledge" *does*
get rejected reformulated or replaced by something better doesn't it?
Anyway even advanced researchers have something to SHOW or at least
mathematically demonstrate to other advanced researchers. However even if
I accepted all of your reasoning on this subject it would still not satisfy
me: I would simply like the people within the Theosophical Society who talk
so knowledgeably about and sometimes implying intimacy *with* a
"Brotherhood" of existing Masters guiding events from behind the scenes etc.
to either forthrightly say they have seen heard felt smelled etc. Them
"category two" or that have a strong theosophical conviction "category
one" about Them. I do not care if the Masters *could* be apprehended in
this way or that--only if someone *is* currently apprehending Them in any way
at all.
If no one is then I vote for this as the subject which the Theosophical
Society needs to put itself at the most "official distance" from. It is
important to distinguish here however that we are talking about *existing*
Masters and not those of H.P.B.'s association. Of the people I have tried
to interest in the Society over the years by far the biggest stumbling block
has been when they have encountered things like Radha's "calling for the
blessings" of Those who continue to guide the Society etc. I have tried to
explain that this was just certain people's private belief within the Society
etc. but with little success. To the newcomers it seemed like *Existing
Masters* was the "official" or at least the most popular view and I may as
well have been trying to convince them to join a society based upon Dora's
fairies or whatever.
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 16:14:10 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: Coherence
Coherence
I thought you gave an eloquent defense making several good
points. I had mistaken you for yet another pseudonym. I thought
someone on the list had already id you as Adam. Now I'm not sure
if that was to the biblical architype or Adam Warcup.
We recently had a communications trainer come speak to our staff.
One of the intersting points she brought out was how much body
language contributes to communication. Facial expressions hand
motions etc. makeup 60% of what we absorb. This medium one could
argue is a very poor way to communicate.
Putting our most commonly know pseudonym on our correspondence
might help those who may know us in person or from other writings
which one might expect would improve your chances of actually
communicating your ideas.
Few here claim to be a pure channel of truth I'm thinking of
Daniel our fundamentalist antagonist--but hey if you want to zing
a friend here's an opening:. The credit for your brilliant or not
so will find you on the inner planes I suspect as I doubt they need
any of your pseudonyms to find you!
Lewis
aka Luke aka Dad aka Buttknocker...
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 16:32:49 GMT
From: "Lewis Lucas"
Subject: Re: Dark Night of the Soul
>
> I mentioned that if there is sufficient experience of the higher
> principles there is no "dark night" when one shifts away from the
> lower.
I am not familiar with other writers who expouse this idea. Could you
share some reference? I thought it was a step in the rungs of the
ladder so to speak which was universally experienced--similar to
the Dweller on the threshold idea.
Sounds more like wishful thinking to me. It would be nice if we could
advance without the tests the fire which tempers the steel or would
it?
Lewis
llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 20:42:06 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:Christmas Card-Lifting Veils
Ann B. submitted this interesing commentary:
"That which is a mystery
shall no longer be so
and that which has been veiled
will now be revealed;
that which has been withdrawn
will emerge into the light
and all men shall see
and together they shall rejoice."
- Old Commentary
When people used to talk about veils I couldn't imagine what they meant except
in a poetic figurative way. Now when I reflect on my consciousness as in the
beginning of meditation I sense varioius inner rooms opening. When I am tired
or have a headache I am literally up against a brick wall. My inner eye is
frustrated with an ugly painful view. But when I center relax breathe etc it
is as if people are moving scenery on a stage or elevator doors or opening and
closing to reveal at certain times large expansive light-filled vistas.
In this season we are told the light will come and merry gentlemen shall rejoice
with the coming of the Light and the Word. I propose to those that may be
interested a group meditation or reflection at the time of the ingress of the
sun into Capricorn the night of the solstice. On the morning of Dec.
22 at 02:00AM Grenwich time 8:00 AM approximately in the USA the sun will
ingress. Six hours later the Moon will ingress into Capricorn as the new moon.
The Alice Bailey groups meditate at the time of the full moon. The moon is
supposed to be out of the way of the sun. However the new moon is often seen
as a begiinning of a cycle. Perhaps the veils will be lifted around this time
and new energies will be provided to consciousnesses that are listening.
Perhaps nothing at all will happen for some. Perhaps the Solstice day itself
will provide a point of reflection and new beginnings.
For those asleep dreams may bring messages for the coming new year! It is
interesting that we mention "Isis Unveiled" hardly at all on this news group or
rather rarely in other theosphical circles. From my sketchy knowledge in this
earlier work she attempts to contrast relgious thinking concerning a personal
God as opposed to the older Western traditions of the Goddess of the Moon as
personification of the ancient wisdom man am I showing my ignorance here!.
She mentions karma reincarnation Buddhism maya and all the Eastern Esoteric
vocabulary very little if at all. The idea of the Masters had not been
formulated either. The quantum leap to "The Secret Doctrine" shows that more
than a few veils were left to be lifted. Those that are skeptical might see the
hands of many of K. Paul's all-too-human Masters at work on the thought of HPB
at this time.
Isis-the moon in conjuction with Osiris-the sun will give birth to Horus the
divine child as symbols of evolution of consciousness.
Namste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 19 Dec 1996 23:17:43 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Internet/TAFs
Here is a very interesting excerpt from Upside Magazine 1/96 Issue
Right in the focal point of this new juggernaut is a group called
Technologically Advanced Families TAFs which my firm the Yankee Group
has been studying for 10 years. This group which consists of around 14.5
million U.S. families is already accessing AOL Prodigy and Compuserve.
They were first in line for Windows 95 and they believe the Internet is the
most potent force in the damn universe.
This is a group that defines itself by its familiarity with technology
and whose influence and clout is much greater than its percentage of the
population would imply. Ask Intel about the role the TAFs played in the
Pentium debacle. They stormed the chat lines and forced a major corporation
to capitulate or face the wrath of an angry -- and interconnected -- cadre.
MKR comment:
If you look at the past it is some of the extra ordinary individuals and
small groups of individuals who have have impacted progress. The TAFs quote
above seem to show us a way. There is a great potential for us here to
contribute to Theosophy via the Internet.
Any comments?
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 00:33:06 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Uranus in Aquarius
Actually public transporation is a rather bad analogy as it places the
individual in an unacceptable position of dependence on the schedules of the
services in question. The internet is more like a car than the postal
service. It gives the individual the freedom to maneuver in ways that
previous methods of communication did not. And once home virtual reality
set-ups are practical with modems that can handle them it will be possible
to have meetings inside cyberspace without having to physically travel to
them at all.
Chuck Cosimano
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 00:33:52 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
Here are a few questions that have puzzled me over the years and I put them
out that they may puzzle you as well. While I have my own opinions on these
I will withhold them for the moment and see what kind of answers if any are
forthcoming.
1. Was the Buddha really enlightened or was he merely some nut with a good
press agent?
2. Is karma a reality or merely a useful means of social control?
3. Did the Masters tell the truth in their letters?
4. How much of Theosophy is a reflection of the culture of its founders?
5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and why should
they?
Have fun.
Chuck Cosimano
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 01:00:41 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Returns of Christ
> If we define the Christ as an archetype
> of the collective unconscious it seems fair to say that He/It
> *has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above.
> Returned in many new forms and with conflicting messages.
Jesus in the gospel accounts also gives conflicting messages!
At one point he is quoted as saying he has come only to the lost
sheep of the house of Israel and elsewhere accepts gentiles
into his following.
I guess God's son is just confused in whatever guise we find
him. Should have had a daughter if you ask me which you
probably don't.
:- Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 01:04:57 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Coherence
>
> I am Gregory D. Hoskins says boldly beats chest
>
> A Rose by any other name smells as sweet or something to that effect. . . .
The point is brother Gregory if I may be so bold that your
alleged pseudonym did not conceal the identity listed in the
review of theos-l though from the listing one receives it would
appear that anonymity is possible if anyone wants it. I always
keep a copy of the entire subscribed list 100% unconcealed at
last retrieval as I occasionally need the e-mail address of
folks whose postings I have not retained.
That you chose or choose to use "Coherence" on the list is fair
enough but you might like to consider the idea that for
example I would not want to send a message saying "Happy
Christmas" or whatever to an adverb?
Peace and goodwill etc. :-
Alan ["Perspicacity"] Bain
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 03:39:25 GMT
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Subject: re: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
Chuck
Here are my own answers to your questions:
>1. Was the Buddha really enlightened or was he merely some nut
>with a good press agent?
Probably an unanswerable question but it doesn't matter to
me anyway. The Buddha prescribed a way for us to live. For me
the more relevant question would be whether or not those who live
according to the Buddha's teachings find their lives to be better
in some way and if the world is made better by living according
to those precepts.
2. Is karma a reality or merely a useful means of social
control?
I've only seen it used as a social control on two occasions.
Once when I walked into a shop in Los Angeles that sold occult
supplies. A sign above the counter said: "Shoplifting plays hell
on your karma." The other is among some neo-theosophists I
know who after stabbing people in the back remind them that it
is their karma that put the knife there. The implication being:
"Next time play our game and you won't get hurt." More often
among the new age crowd I have seen it used as a cop out to
avoid responsibility for one's self and others. "It was my karma
to be born in these circumstances--so there is nothing to do but
to suffer for it" or "Nothing I can do about it--it's your bad
karma that you are in this situation." Personally I experience
karma as an observable reality: that is--my environment responds
to my presence--for better or worse. As for the pop version of
karma i.e. "You are in this mess because you did the same thing
to that person in your last life"--I don't believe in it.
3. Did the Masters tell the truth in their letters?
Did you catch them in a lie? I always assume others are
telling the truth according to the limits of their understanding
of course unless I have evidence to the contrary.
4. How much of Theosophy is a reflection of the culture of its
founders?
Any idea must be expressed in terms of the culture to be
meaningful. Theosophy is a very Indo-European expression in
spite of its occasional references to non-Indo-European religion.
Consequently Indo-European cultures seem to be the extent of its
influence. For instance theosophy became popular in India
Europe and the Latin countries but never really caught on in
say Japan or China. Neo-theosophy is even more specifically
cultural--with very Christo-European overtones.
5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and
why should they?
I care about rounds and chains and teach them. The
doctrine when properly understood forces the student to abandon
linear thinking. Whether or not the doctrine is "true" is less
important to me than the perceptive skills one develops through
their study.
Jerry HE
------------------------------------------|Jerry Hejka-Ekins
||Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu ||and
CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org
|------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 05:39:57 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language
According to Christopher Buck:
>
> Dear Paul:
>
> Thanks for your interesting and instructive bibliographic posts.
> They complement Seena Fazel's citation studies.
>
> For us neophytes could you tell us how one accesses the OCLC database?
Not all libraries offer public access to it; it is very rare to
find a terminal in a public library other than for staff use.
But I have seen public access terminals at Duke and have had a
friend at Colgate talk about having the same at that
university. Note that OCLC is the company which provides its
database through regional networks like SOLINET but also
directly through its FirstSearch online service which includes
a public access catalog called WorldCat. That may be the form
in which you would be most likely to find it. Sorry I'm
ignorant of Canadian circumstances but I bet somewhere in the
Ottawa area is access to OCLC in some form. National Library
perhaps? Perhaps Bill Collins can advise.
Now what was that about Seena Fazel's citation study? What did
he find?
Cheers
PJ
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 05:42:59 GMT
From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: Johnson's thesis on Morya and Koot Hoomi
ADDENDUM TO PART IV
JOHNSON'S THESIS CONCERNING THE MASTERS MORYA AND KOOT
HOOMI
By Daniel H. Caldwell
"In all about nine or ten persons testified to having
seen the Mahatmas: Annie Besant Henry Olcott Damodar
Mavalankar Isabel Cooper-Oakley William Brown
Nadyezhda Fadeyev S.R. Ramaswamier Justine Glinka and
Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he
never actually saw them he felt their presence." =
Marion Meade in her biography MADAME BLAVATSKY THE
WOMAN BEHIND THE MYTH 1980 p. 497. I remember
reading this statement by Ms. Meade some fifteen years
ago and exclaiming to myself "Oh Marion Meade you
haven't done your homework!" Off the top of my head I
could count *at least* twenty-five people who testified
to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. =
And despite Meade's statement to the contrary Hartmann
had testified that he had also actually seen one of the
Mahatmas. Apparently Ms. Meade had never carefully
read even two of the titles listed in her own
bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's THE MAHATMAS AND
THEIR LETTERS 1973 and Franz Hartmann's REPORT OF
OBSERVATIONS etc. 1884; both titles prove Meade
didn't know what she was writing about concerning
Hartmann.
It is a historical fact that more than twenty five
people testified to having seen the Mahatmas during
H.P.B.'s lifetime. Whether these testimonies are true
or not of course is another question and issue. But
how does Paul Johnson in his three major books handle
these testimonies? We have already seen in Part IV of
this series that Johnson uses a "double standard" in
assessing the evidence of some of these testimonies. =
In reply to my criticism that Johnson ignored certain
testimonies of Olcott's encounters with the Master
Morya Johnson asserted a "higher" standard of evidence
that he felt should be met. Yet within his own
published writings Johnson uses a *lower* standard and
accepts "at face value" at least four accounts by
Olcott. It was my contention in Part IV that by
Johnson's own use of this lower standard the other
accounts by Olcott of meeting the Master Morya in
Bombay and elsewhere should also be accepted at face
value.
As I related in Part IV Johnson devotes pp. 59-62 of
THE MASTERS REVEALED to Henry Olcott's 1875-76 meeting
with Ooton Liatto and another unnamed Adept. To
refresh the reader's memory I quote again some
relevant extracts from Olcott's letter: "...I was
reading in my room yesterday Sunday when there came a
tap at the door---I said `come in' and there entered
the [younger] Bro[ther] with another dark skinned
gentleman of about fifty....[Then Olcott relates that a
rain shower started in the room. Olcott continues the
account:]...the younger of the two...gave me his name
as Ooton Liatto....I asked Liatto if he knew Madam
B[lavatsky]....I ran downstairs---rushed into Madams
parlour---and---there sat these same two identical men
smoking with her and chatting....I said nothing but
rushed up stairs again tore open my door and---the men
were not there---I ran down again they had
disappeared---I...looked out the window---and saw them
turning the corner...."
In summarizing this account Johnson writes: "The
names Ooton Liatto and Hilarion Smerdis have been
equally impossible to find in biographical and
historical reference books. While both may be
pseudonyms *there is little doubt that two real adepts
visited Olcott in New York.*" p. 62 Asterisks added. =
From his own words we see that Johnson accepts the
accuracy and truthfulness of Olcott's account and also
believes that two *real* adepts visited Olcott in New
York. Johnson makes these admissions although he
concedes that the two names [Hilarion and Ooton Liatto]
were *not* located in any biographical and historical
reference books; hence both names "may be pseudonyms." =
Johnson also accepts Olcott's account literally and at
face value even though there is only Olcott's testimony
to confirm the account. I should tell the reader that
I also agree with Johnson's estimation of Olcott's
account. In light of Johnson's *own criteria and
standards* as evidenced in this Ooton Liatto incident
and the other three accounts discussed in Part IV I
submit to interested readers for their thoughtful
consideration and analysis the following incidents
involving the Master Morya:
a In a letter dated Sept. 30 1881 Olcott relates
what had happened just three days before: "...on the
night of that day [Sept. 27th 1881] I was awakened
from sleep by my *Chohan* or Guru the Brother [Morya]
whose immediate pupil I am....He made me rise sit at
my table and write from his dictation for an hour or
more. There was an expression of anxiety mingled with
sternness on his noble face as there always is when
the matter concerns H.P.B. to whom for many years he
has been at once a father and a devoted guardian."
Colonel Olcott was at that time in Columbo Ceylon. Is
this Brother dictating to Olcott to be equated with
Johnson's "fictitious Tibetan persona"? Or is this
Brother dictating to Olcott to be equated with a *real*
Mahatma similar to the *real* adept Ootoo Liatoo whom
Johnson is willing to believe visited Olcott in New
York? In the Mahatma Letters near the end of Letter
29 in the 2nd and 3rd editions Morya himself refers
to *this same visit* to Olcott in these words: =
"O[lcott]'s memo...was written on the 27th [of Sept.
1881]....K.H. thought of asking me to go and tell
O[lcott] to do so....At the same time as I delivered my
message to O[lcott] I satisfied his curiosity as to
your [Sinnett's Simla Theosophical] Society and told
[Olcott] what I thought of it. O[lcott] asked my
permission to send to you these notes which I
accorded...."
b In his handwritten diary for Jan. 29 1882
Bombay India Colonel Olcott writes this brief
account: "M [orya] showed himself very clearly to me &
HPB in her garden....she joining him they talked
together...." Using Johnson's own "Ootoo Liatoo"
criteria could we not accept this account at face
value as evidence of the Master Morya visiting Olcott
and HPB at Bombay T.S. headquarters?
=
c The following is a joint statement by seven people
including Olcott: "We were sitting together in the
moonlight about 09 o'clock upon the balcony which
projects from the front of the bungalow. Mr. Scott was
sitting facing the house so as to look through the
intervening verandah and the library and into the room
at the further side. This latter apartment was
brilliantly lighted. The library was in partial
darkness thus rendering objects in the farther room
more distinct. Mr. Scott suddenly saw the figure of a
man step into the space opposite the door of the
library; he was clad in the white dress of a Rajput
and wore a white turban. Mr. Scott at once recognized
him from his resemblance to a portrait [of Morya] in
Col. Olcott's possession. Our attention was then drawn
to him and we all saw him most distinctly. He walked
towards a table and afterwards turning his face
towards us walked back out of our sight...when we
reached the room he was gone....Upon the table at the
spot where he had been standing lay a letter addressed
to one of our number. The handwriting was identical
with that of sundry notes and letters previously
received from him....:" The statement is signed by =00
"Ross Scott Minnie J.B. Scott H.S. Olcott H.P.
Blavatsky M. Moorad Ali Beg Damodar K. Mavalankar
and Blavani Shankar Ganesh Mullapoorkar." *In this
case we have not only Olcott's account but testimony
by six other people.* Compare this with the Ooton
Liatto account.
From Olcott's own handwritten diary for Jan. 05 1882 I
quote extracts never before published and now
transmitted on the Internet around the world!
concerning this event witnessed by the above-named
seven individuals: "Evening. Moonlight. On balcony
HPB Self Scott & wife Damodar....[etc]...M[orya]
appeared in my office. First seen by Scott then
me....Scott clearly saw M's face....M left note for me
on table in office by which he stood...."
To summarize the significance of these three accounts
a b and c we can paraphrase Johnson's own
summary of the Ooton Liatto account: "The names M and
Morya have been equally impossible to find in
biographical and historical reference books of 19th
century people. While both may be pseudonyms there is
little doubt that a real Mahatma visited Olcott and
others in Colombo and Bombay." This is my estimation
of these three accounts. Since I am using Johnson's
own "Ootto Liatto" criteria to assess the evidence
would Johnson also agree with my estimation of these
three accounts? I ask interested readers who are
willing to carefully analyze and think through these
issues: What light do these three accounts shed on
Johnson's hypothesis concerning the Morya persona? Can
a merely "fictitious Tibetan persona" be walking around
and interacting with Olcott as well as seen by six
other witnesses? Furthermore can the Mahatma Morya in
these three accounts be identified with Ranbir Singh? =
Is it plausible that the Maharajah of Kashmir was in
Bombay and Columbo on these dates? *I would suggest
that these three accounts are simply more evidence
showing the implausibility and improbability of
Johnson's hypothesis on Ranbir Singh/Morya. It is my
opinion that these accounts and other similar accounts
indicate that Johnson's Ranbir hypothesis doesn't even
begin to address and account for much of the
Theosophical evidence/testimony concerning Morya etc.* =
I believe that the evidence I have adduced in Part IV
and in this Addendum help to support the validity of
Dr. Algeo's following observation: "The parallels
between Ranbir Singh and Morya are *exceedingly
tenuous*....There is no evidence that Ranbir was in
fact the model for Morya's virtues or *anything else*
in connection with him." Asterisks added.
Let us now turn to S. Ramawamier's account of meeting
the Mahatma Morya in Sikkim. Johnson deals with
Ramswamier's account on pp. 25-30 of *Initiates of
Theosophical Masters* SUNY 1995. This account is a
rehash of what Johnson had previously written on pp.
246-249 of his 1990 IN SEARCH OF THE MASTERS. Johnson
writes: "S. Ramabadra Ramaswamier was a clerk from
Tinevely in South India on leave after a nervous
breakdown. Following HPB on her travels on Oct 05
he allegedly went from Darjeeling into Sikkim and
penetrated twenty miles beyond the border where he
claimed to have met the Master M...."
I give an excerpt from Ramaswamier's account Oct
1882: "...I suddenly saw a solitary horseman
galloping towards me from the opposite direction. From
his tall stature and the expert way he managed the
animal I thought he was some military officer of the
Sikkim Raja...But as he approached me he reined the
steed. I looked at and recognized him instantly...I
was in the awful presence of...my own revered *Guru*
[Morya]...The very same instant saw me prostrated on
the ground at his feet. I arose at his command....He
wears a short black beard and long black hair hanging
down to his breast...He wore a yellow mantle lined with
fur and on his head...a yellow Tibetan felt cap...I
had a long talk with him. He told me to go no further
for I would come to grief. He said I should wait
patiently if I wanted to become an accepted
*Chela*...Before he left two more men came on
horseback his attendants I suppose probably *Chelas
for they were dressed...like himself with long hair
streaming down their backs. They followed the Mahatma
as he left at a gentle trot...."
What are Johnson's comments on this account by
Ramaswamier? In his 1990 book IN SEARCH OF THE MASTERS
p. 247 Johnson writes: "The height and horsemanship
are reminiscent of Ranbir Singh [maharajah of Kashmir]
one prototype for Master M. *But what could he have
been doing in Sikkim?* [Asterisks added.] Not only
does this tale distract the reader from the
geographical circumstances [Kashmir?] of the real M.
[Ranbir Singh] it also makes him seem someone who can
wander at will and has no obligations at home." This
passage is deleted from the account in Johnson's newest
book. But let us reflect on Johnson's remarks. "But
what could he [the Maharajah of Kashmir] have been
doing in Sikkim?" Looking at a map of India the
reader will notice that Sikkim is located on the far
northeastern side of India while Kashmir is located on
the far northwestern side. Yes I agree IF the "real
M" is Ranbir Singh Ramaswamier's account is hard to
take at face value. Obviously Ranbir Singh has
obligations at home as monarch of his kingdom and
cannot wander at will! Therefore it is not surprising
to me that Johnson tries to invalidate Ramaswamier's
account. Why? One reason could be: If one accepts
Ramaswamier's account *at face value* then this
account can be considered another piece of evidence
*against* Johnson's hypothesis concerning Ranbir
Singh/Morya. I would suspect that if Ramaswamier's
encounter had taken place in the vicinity of Ranbir's
palace in Kashmir Johnson would have used the account
to support his Ranbir hypothesis. Johnson's
explanation in *Initiates of Theosophical Masters* is
as follows: "Blavatsky's biographer Marion Meade
interprets this as the hallucination of a madman
rather than a role played under direction of real
Masters. Ramaswamier's account is indeed inherently
preposterous [why?] but a closer look [by Johnson]
reveals it to have been inspired by HPB and her
Masters....After Ramaswamier's death in 1893 one of
his sons published the letters he received from the
Masters intending them as proof that his father had
been deceived by HPB. The eloquence of Ramaswamier's
report [about meeting Master Morya] raises the question
of how much of it HPB may have written for him. That
an elaborate scheme of deception was indeed being
engineered is apparent from these letters...which
suggest a conspiracy to prove the Masters' existence." =
In other words Johnson believes that Ramaswamier was
neither a victim of hallucinations or a dupe of HPB's
confederates as Richard Hodgson had suggested but
that Ramaswamier was a co-conspirator with HPB. In
other words he lied about meeting Morya in Sikkim; and
HPB probably wrote his account! In passages not found
in Johnson's newest book but to be found in his earlier
1990 work Johnson adds these details: "...it seems
clear [to Johnson at least] that HPB had found in
Ramaswamier a willing accomplice. The goal of the
operation was to distract attention from the Punjab and
Kashmir so as to confuse observers intent on finding
the Mahatmas....It is impossible to tell from these
passages [in M.'s letters to Ramaswamier] whether
Ramaswamier was deceived in Sikkim by a bogus Mahatma
or whether he was a willing partner in the deception. =
The latter seems much more likely in light of the
peculiar aspects of his story involving the Master's
voice and coincidental meetings...." p. 246 & 249. =
Concerning Johnson's reference to "peculiar aspects"
like "the Master's voice" heard by Ramaswamier I could
quote from similar accounts by Olcott in which Olcott
said he also heard "the Master's voice" when the Master
was not to be seen. Does this mean that Olcott can
also be considered an accomplice? Is Johnson willing
to label Olcott as a liar and accomplice of HPB's? In
the above extract Johnson writes: "The goal of the
operation was to distract attention from the Punjab and
Kashmir so as to confuse observers intent on finding
the Mahatmas...." This is of course *Johnson's own
interpretation* of the events in order to safeguard his
hypotheses on M. and K.H. As I said in Part IV
Johnson will quote information from various sources in
support of his hypotheses but if information even in
the same document negates his hypotheses Johnson will
discount the latter information and label it as
"disinformation." By this method one could prove
almost anything.
The reader of Johnson's books may not be aware that S.
Ramaswamier whom Johnson would like to believe is a
confederate of H.P.B.'s also testified that he saw the
Master Morya at Bombay T.S. headquarters on Dec. 28
1881. Henry Olcott was also a witness to this
encounter and writes to A.O. Hume as follows: "I am
glad to be able to send you the testimony of still
another witness who has seen my *Chohan* [Morya] and
under most favourable circumstances....I never saw the
Brother looking more splendid than he did to-night in
the bright moonlight. Mr. R[amaswamier] is a Brahman
of the highest caste his brother or cousin is I
believe chief priest to the Maharajah of Travancore
and he is intensely interested in Occultism." Olcott's
letter is dated the same day Dec. 28 1881. Attached
to this letter is an account signed by H.S. Olcott
Damodar K. Mavalankar and S. Ramaswamier testifying
that they had seen "a man upon the balcony...leaning
against the balustrade and with the moolight shining
full upon him. He was dressed in white and wore a
white Fehta [turban] on his head. His beard was black
and his long black hair hung to his breast. Olcott and
Damodar at once recognized him as the `Illustrious.'
[Morya] He raised his hand and dropped a letter to us. =
Olcott jumped from the carriage and recovered it....It
was a message to Ramaswamier in reply to a letter in
a closed envelope which he had written to the Brother
a short time before we went out for the ride...."
Was Ramaswamier an accomplice of HPB's in this account
too? Maybe Olcott and Damodar were also confederates
of HPB and the three of them lied about this event? If
Johnson can attempt to convict Ramaswamier of giving
false testimony lying then why not include Olcott and
Damodar too? Turning to another matter remember some
of Johnson's comments on Ramaswamier's meeting with =
Morya in Sikkim? In his 1990 book IN SEARCH OF THE
MASTERS p. 247 Johnson wrote: "The height and
horsemanship are reminiscent of Ranbir Singh [maharajah
of Kashmir] one prototype for Master M. But what
could he have been doing in Sikkim? Not only does this
tale distract the reader from the geographical
circumstances [Kashmir] of the real M. [Ranbir Singh]
it also makes him seem someone who can wander at will
and has no obligations at home." Could not one
paraphrase Johnson's comments and apply them to
Ramaswamier's Olcott's and Damodar's account of Dec.
28 1881? as follows: "The height and turban are
reminiscent of Ranbir Singh. But what could he have
been doing in Bombay? Not only does this tale distract
the reader from the geographical circumstances of the
real M. it also makes him seem someone who can wander
at will and has no obligations at home." And such
remarks could be said of all of Morya's appearances to
Olcott and others at Bombay. If Johnson is willing to
accuse Ramaswamier who had known HPB for only a year
or so of being an accomplice and liar is Johnson
willing to accuse Olcott who had known HPB for some
seven years and had a vested longtime interest in
HPB's work etc. of being an accomplice and liar too? =
*And if Olcott can be considered an accomplice and liar
of HPB's what non-theosophical reader and scholar
would be foolish enough to accept the four accounts of
Olcott mentioned in my Part IV and accepted by Paul
Johnson at face value as evidence of real adepts and
masters?* If it is true that Dr. Gregory Tillett and
Dr. David Christopher Lane has changed their opinions
from one of believing HPB's Masters were entirely
fictional to another opinion approximating Johnson's
thesis concerning M. and K.H. then I would urge them
to reconsider their new found perspectives. In light
of what I have said in this series of articles it
might be better for both of these scholars to return to
their former positions.
I again ask readers who are willing to carefully
analyze and think through these issues: What light do
these firsthand accounts shed on Johnson's hypothesis
concerning the Morya persona? Can a merely "fictitious
Tibetan persona" be walking around and interacting with
Olcott Ramaswamirer Damodar? Furthermore can the
Mahatma Morya in these accounts be identified with
Ranbir Singh? Is it plausible that the Maharajah of
Kashmir was in Bombay and Sikkim on these dates? I
would suggest that these accounts are simply MORE
EVIDENCE showing the implausibility and improbability
of Johnson's hypothesis on Ranbir Singh/Morya. It is
my opinion that these accounts and other similar
accounts indicate that Johnson's Ranbir hypothesis
doesn't even begin to address and account for much of
the Theosophical evidence/testimony concerning Morya
etc.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 05:44:40 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Uranus in Aquarius
Chuck Cosimano:
>Actually public transporation is a rather bad analogy as it places the
>individual in an unacceptable position of dependence on the schedules of the
>services in question. The internet is more like a car than the postal
>service. It gives the individual the freedom to maneuver in ways that
>previous methods of communication did not. And once home virtual reality
>set-ups are practical with modems that can handle them it will be possible
>to have meetings inside cyberspace without having to physically travel to
>them at all.
Hmm. I was using public trans because I was thinking of the "group" something
that is connected with the sign of Aquarius. From your description perhaps it
would be more like the transporter or holodeck on the Star Trek series.
- Ann E. Bermingham
PS BTW Chuck do live in the Chicago area? Your name seems very familiar to
me.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 06:08:44 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Lifting veils
Keith:
>In this season we are told the light will come and merry gentlemen shall
rejoice
>with the coming of the Light and the Word. I propose to those that may be
>interested a group meditation or reflection at the time of the ingress of the
>sun into Capricorn the night of the solstice. On the morning of Dec.
>22 at 02:00AM Grenwich time 8:00 AM approximately in the USA the sun will
>ingress. Six hours later the Moon will ingress into Capricorn as the new moon.
According to my astro-program the will move into Capricorn according to
this US schedule:
!:30 AM EST 023000 AM CST 3:30 AM MST 4:30 AM -0800
This schedule is based on the being 00 degree 01 min in Capricorn in
Chicago.
The Moon will be 03 degrees 40 min in Capricorn. Also in Capricorn will be
Mercury Mars Neptune and Uranus.
I wish I knew how to translate this into international hours. How would we
handle a international theos-l meditation?
- Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 06:47:53 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Anonymity
In answer to Coherence's questions:
1 Do you think the energy flow will really change?
I think it already has with your response and JRC's comments
inspired by it.
2 Why was it so important to know...
Didn't say it was *so* important; just asked if you'd mind
revealing yourself.
3 Was this a correct ethical move? for Doss I think it was
to get your name from the list
Note that your post addresses "you" and it's unclear how much
you mean that singularly to me; in this case it wasn't my
ethical move. In the circumstances what Doss did was simply to
post information that was easily accessible; if you had really wanted
anonymity it need not have been so. Sorry if you feel
violated but I think JRC has answered this one already.
4 What is you would have discovered something you would have
rather NOT known?
Well my only strategy was to ask if you would reveal your
identity. Not sure what Doss or others might have discovered
about anyone that we would rather not know-- any clues to offer?
About your bet-- No I didn't hunt for Christmas presents or
shake them because I enjoyed the anticipation. Sometimes
mystery enhances things but not IMO in this forum. As for your
being condescending I can only ask others for feedback in that
regard. Your remarks about our political discussion about the
Adyar TS in general about my post on Edgar Cayce best laugh
in a long time about the sad state of most Theosophists on
theos-l etc. etc. do come across as condescending. In 1958
Pierce Spinks in his Theosophists Reunite! accused ULT of
acting like the Brahmins of Theosophy who look down on the rest
of us. There is a collective personality in ULT that does
indeed come across as condescending. I've participated in
intergroup events at least twice at which the Pasadena and
Adyar people were entirely loose and interchangeably friendly
but the ULT people were distinctly closed off and
superior-acting. This in the East; I think cooperation has
worked better in California based on events I've attended there.
In any event my point was to invite you to relax the "ULT
spokesperson" persona and just be ordinary folks like the rest
of us. I apologize for doing so in a way that offended you.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 07:10:32 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: your mail
On 20 199512 liesel f. deutsch wrote:
> To: Lewis Lucas
>
> beg to differ re the internet being a poor communications medium. I know I
> cant' see you folks but talking to you on the internet beats not talking to
> any Theosophists at all which is what I had before I begged borrowed &
> didn't steal money to get me a computer. I'm accepting whatever "face"
> anyone shows me on the internet without worrying too much about what other
> faces they might present in person.
>
> Liesel
Very few people know that you DO NOT need an expensive fast computer
to user Internet unless you want to see all the nice graphics. It will
run on an XT and all you need is a communication program. Of course a
fast modem will help. I hope computer people get this across to potential
Internet/e-mail users. I got on internet when a friend told me that she
started with a 286 and graduated to a 386. But I started with a XT clone
and I use both the XT clone and the 386 to access Internet.
...doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 08:36:40 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
>Here are a few questions that have puzzled me over the years and I put them
>out that they may puzzle you as well. While I have my own opinions on these
>I will withhold them for the moment and see what kind of answers if any are
>forthcoming.
>1. Was the Buddha really enlightened or was he merely some nut with a good
>press agent?
LFD
Do you suppose his press agent was Miguel de Cervantes?
>2. Is karma a reality or merely a useful means of social control?
LFD
Karma might be a useful means but to me it gives a framework to live by. To
me karma represents freedom rather than control because if I know the laws
of the universe I don't unknowingly butt against them all the time but can
maneuver with them and/or around them to acomplish my goal. It doesn't
matter much to me whether it's real or not I find it a useful tool for the
purposes stated above.
>3. Did the Masters tell the truth in their letters?
Here again I don't really care whether they told the truth or made it all
up. I absorb whatever I find useful & leave the rest ie to me usefulness
matters a lot more than truthfulness.
>4. How much of Theosophy is a reflection of the culture of its founders?
I'm beginning to wonder about that. I was reading around in HPB's writings
the other day & came across this passage which began by HPB excusing
herself for having to write about "indelicate" things but she found it
necessary. In my imagination I thought I was getting into a juicy morsel
about the theosophical sex life. Instead HPB gave a description of a foetus
developing in utero. That was considered "indelicate" in her days. I know. I
took "American Women's History" a few years ago.
>5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and why should
>they?
I shouldn't. They bore me.
>Have fun.
>Chuck Cosimano
>
I did.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 08:45:24 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Internet/TAFs
>
>MKR comment:
>
> If you look at the past it is some of the extra ordinary individuals and
>small groups of individuals who have have impacted progress. The TAFs quote
>above seem to show us a way. There is a great potential for us here to
>contribute to Theosophy via the Internet.
>
> Any comments?
>
> ...doss
>
Doss I think we've already begun to do this. We started out as individuals
from the various factions & we've gotten to be a fairly cohesive group. I
think some of our discussion have been really fruitful ... like for instance
the one a while ago about karma.
Also I've made several new friends whom I value.
What I miss in all this is that we who know more or less what theosophy is
all about are batting various subjects back & forth. There isn't anything
much for a beginner & I think that's sorely needed. We need more members.
We have I think a good doctrine to live by but we're not making a
tremendous effort to let other people know about it. There should be a sub
Theos list for basic Theosophy run by someone who knows how to do it or a
group taking turns.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 08:51:10 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: (none)
To: Lewis Lucas
beg to differ re the internet being a poor communications medium. I know I
cant' see you folks but talking to you on the internet beats not talking to
any Theosophists at all which is what I had before I begged borrowed &
didn't steal money to get me a computer. I'm accepting whatever "face"
anyone shows me on the internet without worrying too much about what other
faces they might present in person.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 10:20:48 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: New Web Pages
For those of you who are Alice Bailey fans or merely curious here are two web
addresses for offshoots of her group. The second is still being worked on but
looks interesting. Here my enthusiasm for the internet rivals that of
Ramadoss.
http://www.oneworld.org/worldgoodwill
http://emporium.turnpike.net/N/ngws
Happy Surfing!
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 10:34:08 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: trust problem
Yesterday both Eldon & Doss wrote something about the debate over the by
laws revisions & I'd like to respond to some of it.
ET "I've been wondering what we should do about things"
LFD me too
ET ...if the TSA....changes its by laws could it be...shut down by Rhada?"
LFD I think it could & I don't see any rhyme nor reason to the shut downs
in the past except maybe that following Alice Bailey offends. But that's
conjecture. I'd like to get an answer to this from someone in Wheaton.
ET you talk about "if we want more independence..." I'm not sure as to how
much independence from Adyar we actually have. LFD
ET Re believing anything you want vs. teaching The Doctrine.
LFD I think both have their place. I think we should all study Basic
Theosophy to begin with so that we know what our doctrines are. But then
Theosophy is so wide & varied that we should become "a seeker's club" with
everyone pursuing whatever wrinkle interests him/her at the time. I know
that for me my interest wasn't always in 01 particular subject matter. Once
it was Geoffrey Hodson once it was Zen Buddhism a la Xmas Humphreys then
again I came across Lama Govinda and AB and CWL and Harry and Serge Sri
Ram & Jinarajadasa and biofeedback & chaos theory & trying to help 3rd
world families & taking care of my theosophical cats & learning
vegetarian & chanting & Celts... the list is endless. That's what
fascinates me about Theosophy... but the infighting doesn't.
ET "...Positive suggestions for changes in Wheaton's policies..." etc.
LFD I think John Algeo has introduced a number of changes in policy for the
better. Ex.: When Dorothy presided we were just informed that there were by
laws changes. Under John The by laws were published. We were asked to vote
on the revisions even though discussion was painfully brief. From the
letters John sent subsequent to some of the protests he's listening. I
think he really truly believes that these revisions are for the good of the
TS. The thing is he's inherited an aura of distrust which is hard to dispel.
Like I think I should know & not have to ask whether Radha can shut us down
& how independent we are of Adyar. After all I've been a member for not
quite 20 years & I've had contact with the TS for 15 more years beyond
that. How come these things aren't common knowledge? Seems to me I also
remember that what happens at Board meetings is kept secret as well. If so
I'd like to know what for. I think John Algeo has written articles several
times which gave us insights into what goes on in Wheaton. One article in
the AT gave a picture of what everyone on the Wheaton staff does & I
thought that was informative. When I asked for an index of available video &
audio tapes recording lectures & workshops at Wheaton & Ojai I got back a
thick list. There's skads of useful material. Well I think there's got to
be a lot more of this kind of interchange to dispel the aura of distrust
that's been created. I also think that people in the office of the National
Secretary could be a little less stand offish especially since they're an
important point of contact for any new members. I've had some weird
exchanges with them in connection with my new Study Center that I'm trying
hard to make a go of.
Doss you raise the question as to what the relationship is between the
General Council the International President and our national officers.
Who's calling the shots? I think that's a good question.
You'd also like some more backgrounds info on the revisions in order to be
able to vote on them intelligently. I think that's a good request. On some
of those revisions I voted "No" because I wasn't very clear on what they
actually meant.
You talk about unity & cooperation. My greatest objection to all these
goings on is that after John Algeoall along was mending fences & we were
beginning to forget the big fight we had over Bing's elections here whamo
bango comes something else to cause a rift. We need another rift like we
need a hole in the head but maybe it's too late for that already.
OK that's a couple of suggestions.
I think there needs to be a build up of basic trust which used to be there
under Dora but has eroded since then. As for our relationship with Adyar...
I don't know. I've never been there.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 11:11:14 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Re: delivery workaround/problems
>John ...
> Does the command go to or ?
> ^^^^ ^^^^
> -JRC
either. There are aliases set up for both so it doesn't matter.
peace -
john mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 11:19:25 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: John Algeo's Letter to Members
I also received the letter. It was postmarked 191212 and was mailed in a
#10 envelope. The envelope was specially printed for this mailout as is
obvious from the message that was printed on the lower left bottom of the
envelope which reads:
Message Impacting The Society's Future
Please Open Immediately
Hope every member has received it.
...doss
On 20 199512 John E. Mead wrote:
>
> >>
> >>p.s. I just received a letter from Dr. Algeo which was sent to all TSA
> members
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^
> >>regarding the By-laws change. This is itself rather interesting. :-
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >
> > I have not received it yet. If you or any one else who has received it can
> >post it here it would help if the letter is not too long.
> >
> >
>
> you should have received it by now. Mine was dated on Dec. 06 but mailed
> on Dec. 12.
>
> I find it weird that TSA wasn't sure of what letter was being referred to.
>
> peace -
>
> john mead
>
> p.s. I've been off-line a coule days got busy with other things.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 11:53:28 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Re: John Algeo's Letter to Members
>>
>>p.s. I just received a letter from Dr. Algeo which was sent to all TSA
members
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^
>>regarding the By-laws change. This is itself rather interesting. :-
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I have not received it yet. If you or any one else who has received it can
>post it here it would help if the letter is not too long.
>
you should have received it by now. Mine was dated on Dec. 06 but mailed
on Dec. 12.
I find it weird that TSA wasn't sure of what letter was being referred to.
peace -
john mead
p.s. I've been off-line a coule days got busy with other things.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 12:35:26 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Re: TS Bylaws
> In re-reading the bylaws revisions there are three underlying yet
>related factors cited when dealing with the substantial and fundamental
>changes proposed. The are 01 General Council of TS has asked that certain
>features be incorporated into all national rules 02 Requests by General
>Council 03 To comply with international rules/regulations 04
>International President has recommended certain provision be placed in
>national bylaws.
>
> Due to the citation of the above underlying/related factors there
>appears to be a perception in the minds of some members that somehow the
>General Council and International President are calling the shots and the
>National Board is zealous in following them and trying to implement them
>and that too in a very great hurry and without giving any time for
>discussing them.
so...
did these changes really come from Adyar or not??
as a TSA member I assumed so. Could someone get a fax/comment/e-mail
from Adyar stateing "their" position on the changes??
clearly it is presented as "Adyar-suggested". Does the TSA already have
these communications? and if so they should be distributed for verification.
this is very curious.
>PS: As most of the members of the National Board and the International
>President are not on this newslist I am mailing a copy to them by Snailmail
>for information.
>
time is rather important. could you Fax the Adyar/International board??
I'd like to see a response.
peace -
john mead
jem@vnet.net
cc: J. Algeo
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 12:47:51 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: TS Bylaws
On 20 199512 John E. Mead wrote:
> > In re-reading the bylaws revisions there are three underlying yet
> >related factors cited when dealing with the substantial and fundamental
> >changes proposed. The are 01 General Council of TS has asked that certain
> >features be incorporated into all national rules 02 Requests by General
> >Council 03 To comply with international rules/regulations 04
> >International President has recommended certain provision be placed in
> >national bylaws.
> >
> > Due to the citation of the above underlying/related factors there
> >appears to be a perception in the minds of some members that somehow the
> >General Council and International President are calling the shots and the
> >National Board is zealous in following them and trying to implement them
> >and that too in a very great hurry and without giving any time for
> >discussing them.
>
> so...
>
> did these changes really come from Adyar or not??
>
> as a TSA member I assumed so. Could someone get a fax/comment/e-mail
> from Adyar stateing "their" position on the changes??
==================================
Done.
==================================
....doss
>
> clearly it is presented as "Adyar-suggested". Does the TSA already have
> these communications? and if so they should be distributed for
> verification.
>
> this is very curious.
>
> >PS: As most of the members of the National Board and the International
> >President are not on this newslist I am mailing a copy to them by Snailmail
> >for information.
> >
>
> time is rather important. could you Fax the Adyar/International board??
> I'd like to see a response.
>
> peace -
>
> john mead
> jem@vnet.net
>
> cc: J. Algeo
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 12:57:31 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: TS Bylaws
CORRECTION*********************************************************
The response I sent had my reply in the wrong place. The msg I posted has
been faxed to Adyar as suggested by John E Mead.
....DOSS
The correct version of my reply is:
> > In re-reading the bylaws revisions there are three underlying yet
> >related factors cited when dealing with the substantial and fundamental
> >changes proposed. The are 01 General Council of TS has asked that certain
> >features be incorporated into all national rules 02 Requests by General
> >Council 03 To comply with international rules/regulations 04
> >International President has recommended certain provision be placed in
> >national bylaws.
> >
> > Due to the citation of the above underlying/related factors there
> >appears to be a perception in the minds of some members that somehow the
> >General Council and International President are calling the shots and the
> >National Board is zealous in following them and trying to implement them
> >and that too in a very great hurry and without giving any time for
> >discussing them.
>
> so...
>
> did these changes really come from Adyar or not??
>
> as a TSA member I assumed so. Could someone get a fax/comment/e-mail
> from Adyar stateing "their" position on the changes??
>
> clearly it is presented as "Adyar-suggested". Does the TSA already have
> these communications? and if so they should be distributed for
> verification.
>
> this is very curious.
>
> >PS: As most of the members of the National Board and the International
> >President are not on this newslist I am mailing a copy to them by Snailmail
> >for information.
> >
>
> time is rather important. could you Fax the Adyar/International board??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
======================================
Done
....doss
======================================
>
>
> peace -
>
> john mead
> jem@vnet.net
>
> cc: J. Algeo
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 13:00:51 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: TS Bylaws
There is a correction to this msg which I just posted. Please see the
corrected message.
...doss
On 20 199512 M K Ramadoss wrote:
>
> On 20 199512 John E. Mead wrote:
>
> > > In re-reading the bylaws revisions there are three underlying yet
> > >related factors cited when dealing with the substantial and fundamental
> > >changes proposed. The are 01 General Council of TS has asked that certain
> > >features be incorporated into all national rules 02 Requests by General
> > >Council 03 To comply with international rules/regulations 04
> > >International President has recommended certain provision be placed in
> > >national bylaws.
> > >
> > > Due to the citation of the above underlying/related factors there
> > >appears to be a perception in the minds of some members that somehow the
> > >General Council and International President are calling the shots and the
> > >National Board is zealous in following them and trying to implement them
> > >and that too in a very great hurry and without giving any time for
> > >discussing them.
> >
> > so...
> >
> > did these changes really come from Adyar or not??
> >
> > as a TSA member I assumed so. Could someone get a fax/comment/e-mail
> > from Adyar stateing "their" position on the changes??
>
> ==================================
> Done.
> ==================================
>
> ....doss
>
> >
> > clearly it is presented as "Adyar-suggested". Does the TSA already have
> > these communications? and if so they should be distributed for
> > verification.
> >
> > this is very curious.
> >
> >
> > >PS: As most of the members of the National Board and the International
> > >President are not on this newslist I am mailing a copy to them by
> > >Snailmail for information.
> > >
> >
> > time is rather important. could you Fax the Adyar/International board??
> > I'd like to see a response.
> >
> > peace -
> >
> > john mead
> > jem@vnet.net
> >
> > cc: J. Algeo
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 13:09:46 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Solstice Meditation
More on the Solstice:
ANN B:
According to my astro-program the will move into Capricorn according to
this US schedule:
!:30 AM EST 023000 AM CST 3:30 AM MST 4:30 AM -0800
This schedule is based on the being 00 degree 01 min in Capricorn in
Chicago.
The Moon will be 03 degrees 40 min in Capricorn. Also in Capricorn will be
Mercury Mars Neptune and Uranus.
I wish I knew how to translate this into international hours. How would we
handle a international theos-l meditation?
- Ann E. Bermingham
-----------------------------------
Keith again:
Your are probably right. I was using the Neil F. Michelsen "THe American
Ephemeris" which is not Grenwich. I was trying to convert to 6+ hours for
Houston. You bring up a good point. The actually ingress will occur at
diffiernent times around the world! Since we are not live on-line we cannot
actually do a group meditation as if we were in the room together. But the
internet poses challenges and offers opportunities. Since some consider theos-l
an "electronic lodge" we can see that in some way it is not at all like a
physical lodge but in what way is it a spiritual lodge? Perhaps something like
this meditation could show us the opportuinites and limitations of our trying to
be in spritual and not just intellectual contact. Many will not be interested
at all. But for those that are I suggest that we meditate at anytime of the
day that is conventient and report our experiences if any to the group.
I think the Capricorn energies should give us ample opportuntiy to reflect on "
inner government" whether in our individual psychology or on the global scale
of politics. Visualize the solsitce as a time of disintergration recycling
and rebirth.
Someone e-mailed me regarding some ideas about the moon's cycles and meditation:
On a post to theos-l earlier today you mentioned the AAB group full moon
meditation; that is indeed the "spiritual high point" of the month but
there is also a cyclic meditation that is done on the day of the new moon on
"strengthening the hands of the New Group of World Servers" or to put it
another way the new moon cycle corresponds with physical plane activity
while the full moon corresponds to spiritual as in "non-physical plane"
contact -- at the new moon the energies contacted earlier are made "real"
on the lower levels.
In the AAB writings the Tibetan says that the annual work of the Hierarchy
in preparation for Wesak at the full moon of Taurus begins "from the moment
the sun begins its nrthward course" -- at the solstice. This is the "lower
interlude" on the annual cycle matching the lesser cycles of the moon.
Keith:
This gives me some new ideas regarding meditation and astrological cycles. If
anyone knows what Blavatsky Leadbetter or others might have said about the
solstice and meditation please tell us. I am looking forward to the inner
experience of the outter astrological symbology regarding the upcoming solstice.
It is exciting to know that other groups such as the AAB World Servers may be
meditating regarding large issues such as World Peace and the possible influence
of the Buddha and the spiritual hierarchies at the times of these cyles.
Namaste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 13:28:01 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Re: John Algeo's Letter to Members
special printing:
> Message Impacting The Society's Future
> Please Open Immediately
>
rather interesting that they did NOT know which one was referred to. :-
peace -
John E. Mead jem@vnet.net
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 13:40:12 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Bylaws
Please see my message confirming that the msg I posted last evening was
faxed to Adyar. Let us wait and see what response we get from Wheaton and/or
Adyar.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 15:23:45 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Hunting humor
Greetings of the season! I have a good friend who is a
vegetarian and who at times perhaps gets a little radical about it. She
collects anti-hunting jokes and I thought I'd pass this one on in honor
of hunting season with apologies to any hunters on the list ... unlikely
as that probably is -:. -JRC
A man dies and finds himself facing St. Peter at the pearly
gates. Peter asks him what gifts God had given him and he replies
"well I was born with an IQ of 160". Peter asks him what use he made of
the gifts and the man replies that he was a heart surgeon who saved many
lives with his skill. Peter smiles and welcomes him to heaven.
Second man dies and Peter asks him the same question. The man
replies "well I was born with an IQ of 100". Peter says "well what
use did you make of your gifts?" The man replies that he was a builder
and built good strong houses for people to live in. Peter smiles and
says "that's a good use of talent welcome to heaven".
Third man dies and upon meeting Peter is asked what gifts he
was born with. He replies "well I was born with an IQ of 40". Peter
smiles and says "oh didja get your elk?". -:
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 15:46:33 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: New Web Pages
>For those of you who are Alice Bailey fans or merely curious here are two web
>addresses for offshoots of her group. The second is still being worked on but
>looks interesting. Here my enthusiasm for the internet rivals that of
>Ramadoss.
>
>http://www.oneworld.org/worldgoodwill
>
>http://emporium.turnpike.net/N/ngws
>
>Happy Surfing!
>
>Ann E. Bermingham
>
Thanks it's a good thing to exchange 'addresses' for the Net
be that mailing lists newsgroups http or ftp....
For newbies with specific interests that can save a lot of surfing time. Not
that this cannot be fun but it can save money too for those of us who have a
private account.
Yours most enthusiastically
/* Peter */
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 17:45:04 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
>5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and why should
>they?
>Have fun.
>Chuck Cosimano
Well I certainly do. Why? Magic. Unless you practice some form
of astral traveling or "pathworking" in which you use the model of the planetary
chain of globes as a map of the inner worlds then you probably won't care
very much. But as a map of the inner or invisible worlds I think that HPB has
done us a real service and I personally find her description of the planetary
chain the cornerstone of theosophy and the cement so to speak that holds
all of the theosophical "core teachings" together.
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 19:50:43 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: One reason for Reincarnation
A friend of mine gave perhaps one of the most logical reasons for
reincarnation which a fundamentalist is likely to agree with. Some of you
may have heard it. If it offends any one pardon me.
He said as men and women die and all their sins are written off due to
whatever belief system they belive in they all end up in Heaven. At some
point there is over crowding in Heaven. God's easy way to reduce
overcrowding is to send them back to earth!!!!
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 19:58:40 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Dark Nights and Brighter Days
AS ABOVE SO BELOW
Some have been talking about the dark night of the soul as a spiritual process.
The writings of St. John of the Cross and others testify to the fact that
spiritual knowledge and even experience does not exempt one from the need to
face the cycles of suffering built into the systems of change. All sentient
life is suffering to paraphrase the Buddha.The solstice represents the dark
night of the year. At this time the year has reached its darkest deadest
point. It is the time of dark materiality. Yet it also marks the point at
which the days begin to become longer. Its the point at which things can't get
any worse. They must get better if the cyle of consciousnesss and life is to
continue at all.
My computer generated chart revealed that there is a stellium in Capricorn with
sun moon Mercury Venus Mars Neptune and Uranus in Capricorn at this moment.
Jupiter is conjuncting the sun and moonbut is dragging luckily behind in
Sagitarius. The chart also points out that the solstice occurs this yeart after
midnight 02 hours near the bottom of the chart-the IC. This may represent the
influence as being more in the individual unconscious rather than a social and
conscious influence if it had occurred say at midday in the 10th house of
Capricorn. Of course the winter solstice ALWAYS has sun in Capricorn hence
the name Tropic of Capicorn to mark the sun's journey south.
This year maybe a little special in that the dark night of the year happens at
the darkest most material time of the day. I perhaps unconciously forgot that
Capricorn is represented by the card "The Devil" in the Tarot. The goat-footed
god with curling horns is not a pleasent image. Yet surefooted the goat climbs
to the top. He uses the material world to survive and allows for the easier
playfullness of the other signs. Actually the goat represents an archetype
that is part sea creature with depths with abilities to plunge into the depths
of the unconsious as well as climb the heights of the material world.
I tried to find the path Capricorn represents in the kabala but couldn't.
Perhaps this too is as well. Saturn in some systems is Binah the dark
archetypal watery mother-womb--cryptically referred to as UNDERSTANDING.
But to avoid a hopeless confusion of symbols perhaps the simple idea of the
solstice is an ending that is also a beginning.
Some might find the idea of a mediation focused on the solstice as a little
naive a little childish a little primitive and frankly a little low class
--kind of like using an idol for prayer or something. Zen and other types of
"pure" meditation would tend to merge the object of contemplation and the ego
in a kind of grand unity. Yet depth ecology and other movements bewail our
seperation from the natural cyles. Some people experience depression in the
cold winter light. Our bodies still long for a sign a symbol a synchronicity
to echo our inner processes of despair release and renewal..
Namaste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 20 Dec 1996 22:40:01 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
>1. Was the Buddha really enlightened or was he merely some nut with a good
>press agent?
The Master JS would say that the Buddha archetype is always enlightened.
>2. Is karma a reality or merely a useful means of social control?
The Master ET would say that this could not be answered in under a trillion
words and that he was only able to finish writing half of them this evening.
>3. Did the Masters tell the truth in their letters?
The Master KPJ would say that most of the thirty-two did.
>4. How much of Theosophy is a reflection of the culture of its founders?
The Master RI would say "How much do you want to start saying *the
theosophical writings of . . .* in a context like this?"
>5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and why should
>they?
The Master GH would say they are important because of their coherence.
Chuck best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 00:50:53 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Christmas Card-Lifting Veils
Keith:
2 am GMT 22nd - it's a date! Maybe you will get a revelation
and join us in TI ....
Alan :-
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 01:01:30 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
> Here are a few questions that have puzzled me over the years and I put them
> out that they may puzzle you as well. While I have my own opinions on these
> I will withhold them for the moment and see what kind of answers if any are
> forthcoming.
> 1. Was the Buddha really enlightened or was he merely some nut with a good
> press agent?
An enlightened nut with a good press agent?
> 2. Is karma a reality or merely a useful means of social
control?
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch; a free lunch *can* be
a useful means of social control. Karma = "If I hit my thimb
with the hammer it hurts."
> 3. Did the Masters tell the truth in their letters?
Yes in parts but - Who wrote the Mahatmas letters? What is truth?
> 4. How much of Theosophy is a reflection of the culture of
its founders?
Curiously not as much as one might suppose IMHO.
> 5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and why should
> they?
Difficult to know what one is supposed to care about. Maybe
I'll be able to answer this after the next day and night of
Brahma as by then I should be *at least* a major Avatar.
> Have fun.
I always try in my humble way.
> Chuck Cosimano
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International - how about you?
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 01:10:47 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Dark Night of the Soul
>
> >
> > I mentioned that if there is sufficient experience of the higher
> > principles there is no "dark night" when one shifts away from the
> > lower.
>
> I am not familiar with other writers who expouse this idea. Could you
> share some reference? I thought it was a step in the rungs of the
> ladder so to speak which was universally experienced--similar to
> the Dweller on the threshold idea.
>
> Sounds more like wishful thinking to me. It would be nice if we could
> advance without the tests the fire which tempers the steel or would
> it?
>
> Lewis
I can't recall the original post you are quoting here but
consider if you will that it might not be connected to any
writer at all but to someone's experience? I agree with the
quote as it represents my own experience. At the same time I
have had what was without doubt a "dark night of the soul" as
well but at another time in another circumstance in this
life not a former one or combination of lives.
Having said that while fire and steel may not be necessary you
don't get something for nothing - it has to be worked at and
for realising in the process that "seeking powers" is
counter-productive.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International - how about you?
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 01:23:56 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Connecting!
> Internet/e-mail users. I got on internet when a friend told me that she
> started with a 286 and graduated to a 386. But I started with a XT clone
> and I use both the XT clone and the 386 to access Internet.
>
> ...doss
I started with a 64K "Dragon" UK machine and a 300 baud modem
which connected me to BBS's. The same machine would *still*
connect me to this list at the same speed if I cared to use
it.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 01:27:45 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
>
> 2. Is karma a reality or merely a useful means of social
> control?
P.S. from other post:
I agree with Jerry H-E here. My answer to those who using karma
as a weapon tell me that the horrid things which happen to me
are my fault especially if they did them to me goes thus:
"The karma I have inherited from previous lives means that in
this one I believe in neither karma nor reincarnation."
Misusing the teaching is all too easy.
Thought for the day: Good fruit tastes good.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 01:41:06 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: John Algeo's Letter to Members
Being in the UK I did not get a copy of John Algeo's letter
which is no surprise :-
However if the issues are important internationally I would
like to see a copy. If it was to all TSA members will it be
published in Quest? We have been getting this in England
though I believe it is going to stop coming this year.
On another note would any members of TI who are *not* in the
USA please let me know - not all e-mail addresses show the
country of the person concerned. The *.nz members are of course
obvious as am I with a *.uk suffix but I know that some of the
*.com and similar addresses are not necessarily in the US these
days even though this used to be the case. I have also
discovered that *.net suffixes can come from almost anywhere.
Many thanks.
There were at last count just over 100 subscribers to this
list of which an active 13 have signed up in support of TI. If
you haven't signed up this to anyone is it because of some
objection of principle? Some other reason? I *really* would
like to know and with the exception of nit-picking over the
actual wording used think there could be a useful discussion on
the list about this.
Happy everything
Alan.
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 04:36:50 GMT
From: Sy Ginsburg <72724.413@compuserve.com>
Subject: Invalidity of By-law referendum
copy of letter mailed Dec. 18 1995
Theosophical Ad Hoc Committee
The Theosophical Society in Akron 693 Kenmore Blvd. Akron OH 44314
The Theosophical Society in Miami 831 S.E. 9th Street Deerfield Beach FL
33441
The Theosophical Society in Minneapolis 900 Mount Curve Ave. Minneapolis MN
55403
The Theosophical Society in Ravalli County P.O. Box 4763 Missoula MT 59806
Theosophical Society of Saint Louis 8124 Big Bend Blvd. Webster Groves MO
63119
The Theosophical Society in St. Petersburg 723 17th Street North St.
Petersburg FL 33713
Dec 18 1995
Board of Directors The Theosophical Society in America
C/O John Algeo President 1926 N. Main Street Wheaton IL. 60189
and its National Secretary
BY CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT
Dear Members of the Board of Directors of The Theosophical Society in America
and its National Secretary:
Upon examination of the last three issues of The American
Theosophist and the form of the Official Ballot we feel compelled to call to
your attention our view that the procedures required under the existing By-Laws
of The Theosophical Society in America as they pertain to the current
referendum vote on the revision of the By- Laws have not been followed.
Therefore the vote on this referendum whatever the outcome cannot be valid.
Our basic reasons for so concluding are as follows:
1.The fact that the proposed "resolution" passed by the Board of
Directors submitting the Amendments was not published by being quoted as is
suggested if not required by Section XI A of the existing By-Laws;
2.The proposed Amendments were not published in the form of an official
ballot in The American Theosophist within sixty 60 days of the determination
of the Board of Directors to submit the Amendments to the members of the Society
in a referendum as required under By-Law XI A Section 3;
3.The fact that a square was provided on the ballot in which a member
might vote "YES" upon all of the proposed Amendments but no corresponding
square was provided in which a member might vote "NO" upon all of the proposed
Amendments constitutes "electioneering" on the ballot contrary to law on the
matter of submissions of proposals to voters;
4. The first "question" submitted upon the ballot is so generally and
vaguely worded as to make it impossible for the voter to make an intelligent
choice as to what is being proposed;
5. After the determination that the schedule for permitting "about a
month" for discussion and sending in comments could not be maintained President
Algeo on Oct 05 at least this was the date of his letter stated that "we
have extended everything by a month" Who were the "we" to whom he referred and
how did they obtain authority to act as they did?;
6.The extension referred to above was not "published in the official
members' magazine" as required by By-Law XI A Section 03 and as a result
cannot be effective; and
7.To be valid ballots must reach the National Secretary on a date not
later than "the date fixed and published by the National Secretary as the date
of final return of such ballot" see By-Law XI A Section 03 and so far as the
membership can determine no "date of final return" has been fixed and published
as yet by the National Secretary in this instance.
In view of the foregoing it appears to the undersigned that the proposed
By-Law Amendments as presently being submitted to the members of The
Theosophical Society in America cannot be adopted validly by that membership
for want of a proper submission.
In conclusion we observe that the publication of the "Comments on the
By-Laws Revision" in The American Theosophist Early Winter edition 1995
contains two negative comments printed in small type followed by more extensive
COMMENTS printed in larger type refuting the negative comments. One short
positive comment was printed followed by no COMMENT. This is not even-handed
nor is it even fair to those who took the time and made the effort to comment on
very short notice. The lack of further comments evidences the confusion on the
part of members caused by the failure to comply with the existing By-Laws.
We further observe that the Early Winter edition of The American
Theosophist began reaching members on 191212 1995 whereas the Official
Ballots began reaching members on 192811 1995. Consequently many members
voted before even seeing the comments in The American Theosophist.
In Theosophy
Lori Whitfield President The Theosophical Society in Akron Tel: 216-836-9959
Seymour Sy Ginsburg Attorney-at-law President The Theosophical Society in
Miami Tel: 305-463-8900
Rolf J. Canton President The Theosophical Society in Minneapolis
Tel: 612-822-3155
Terry A. Wallace Attorney-at-law President The Theosophical Society in
Ravalli County Tel: 406-251-3771
Carl Trauernicht Jr. Attorney-at-law Chairman Theosophical Society of Saint
Louis Tel: 314-421-0911
Mohamed Mokhtar President The Theosophical Society in St. Petersburg
Tel: 813-593-8277
Copies to:
Members of the Board of Directors individually
Lodge Presidents and Study Center Secretaries
Other interested members of TSIA for whom we have mailing addresses
Radha Burnier International President
INTERNET: THEOS-L
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 07:23:21 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Invalidity of By-law referendum
Hi everybody.
I am very glad to see the letter from Lodge Presidents on the bylaws. We
should all consider it providential that they took the time to look into
the procedural legal requirements of bylaw changes and were able to
detect serious short comings. But for their timely input TSA may in
ignorance of the legal requirement may have implemented those items which
are approved in the referendum only to find at a future date some lodge
challenging the validity of the bylaws and this leading to litigation
which could be very very expensive and unjustifiable waste of money.
However much we may want to move with haste in revising the bylaws we
need to do it in a very very open and orderly manner so that whatever is
done by TSA is bullet proof legally and morally. Otherwise a very heavy
price is likely to be paid in the long run both financially in legal
expenses - Chicago Lawyers do not come cheap and love to have clients
like TSA with multimillion dollars in the Bank and in terms of harmony
and unity of members.
Let hope that whatever is done relative TSA turns out to be in its long
term interests and has the full support of all members.
.MK Ramadoss
========================================================================
On 21 199512 Sy Ginsburg wrote:
> copy of letter mailed Dec. 18 1995
>
> Theosophical Ad Hoc Committee
> The Theosophical Society in Akron 693 Kenmore Blvd. Akron OH 44314
> The Theosophical Society in Miami 831 S.E. 9th Street Deerfield Beach FL
> 33441
> The Theosophical Society in Minneapolis 900 Mount Curve Ave. Minneapolis MN
> 55403
> The Theosophical Society in Ravalli County P.O. Box 4763 Missoula MT 59806
> Theosophical Society of Saint Louis 8124 Big Bend Blvd. Webster Groves MO
> 63119
> The Theosophical Society in St. Petersburg 723 17th Street North St.
> Petersburg FL 33713
>
> 191812 1995
> Board of Directors The Theosophical Society in America
> C/O John Algeo President 1926 N. Main Street Wheaton IL. 60189
> and its National Secretary
> BY CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT
>
> Dear Members of the Board of Directors of The Theosophical Society in America
> and its National Secretary:
>
> Upon examination of the last three issues of The American
> Theosophist and the form of the Official Ballot we feel compelled to call to
> your attention our view that the procedures required under the existing
> By-Laws of The Theosophical Society in America as they pertain to the
> current referendum vote on the revision of the By- Laws have not been
> followed. Therefore the vote on this referendum whatever the outcome
> cannot be valid.
>
> Our basic reasons for so concluding are as follows:
>
> 1.The fact that the proposed "resolution" passed by the Board of
> Directors submitting the Amendments was not published by being quoted as is
> suggested if not required by Section XI A of the existing By-Laws;
>
> 2.The proposed Amendments were not published in the form of an official
> ballot in The American Theosophist within sixty 60 days of the
> determination of the Board of Directors to submit the Amendments to the
> members of the Society in a referendum as required under By-Law XI A
> Section 3;
>
> 3.The fact that a square was provided on the ballot in which a member
> might vote "YES" upon all of the proposed Amendments but no corresponding
> square was provided in which a member might vote "NO" upon all of the
> proposed Amendments constitutes "electioneering" on the ballot contrary to
> law on the matter of submissions of proposals to voters;
>
> 4. The first "question" submitted upon the ballot is so generally and
> vaguely worded as to make it impossible for the voter to make an intelligent
> choice as to what is being proposed;
>
> 5. After the determination that the schedule for permitting "about a
> month" for discussion and sending in comments could not be maintained
> President Algeo on Oct 05 at least this was the date of his letter
> stated that "we have extended everything by a month" Who were the "we" to
> whom he referred and how did they obtain authority to act as they did?;
>
> 6.The extension referred to above was not "published in the official
> members' magazine" as required by By-Law XI A Section 03 and as a result
> cannot be effective; and
>
> 7.To be valid ballots must reach the National Secretary on a date not
> later than "the date fixed and published by the National Secretary as the
> date of final return of such ballot" see By-Law XI A Section 03 and so
> far as the membership can determine no "date of final return" has been
> fixed and published as yet by the National Secretary in this instance.
>
> In view of the foregoing it appears to the undersigned that the proposed
> By-Law Amendments as presently being submitted to the members of The
> Theosophical Society in America cannot be adopted validly by that membership
> for want of a proper submission.
>
> In conclusion we observe that the publication of the "Comments on the
> By-Laws Revision" in The American Theosophist Early Winter edition 1995
> contains two negative comments printed in small type followed by more
> extensive COMMENTS printed in larger type refuting the negative comments.
> One short positive comment was printed followed by no COMMENT. This is
> not even-handed nor is it even fair to those who took the time and made
> the effort to comment on very short notice. The lack of further comments
> evidences the confusion on the part of members caused by the failure to
> comply with the existing By-Laws.
>
> We further observe that the Early Winter edition of The American
> Theosophist began reaching members on 191212 1995 whereas the Official
> Ballots began reaching members on 192811 1995. Consequently many
> members voted before even seeing the comments in The American Theosophist.
>
> In Theosophy
>
> Lori Whitfield President The Theosophical Society in Akron Tel:
> 216-836-9959
> Seymour Sy Ginsburg Attorney-at-law President The Theosophical Society
> in Miami Tel: 305-463-8900
> Rolf J. Canton President The Theosophical Society in Minneapolis
> Tel: 612-822-3155
> Terry A. Wallace Attorney-at-law President The Theosophical Society in
> Ravalli County Tel: 406-251-3771
> Carl Trauernicht Jr. Attorney-at-law Chairman Theosophical Society of
> Saint Louis Tel: 314-421-0911
> Mohamed Mokhtar President The Theosophical Society in St. Petersburg
> Tel: 813-593-8277
>
> Copies to:
> Members of the Board of Directors individually
> Lodge Presidents and Study Center Secretaries
> Other interested members of TSIA for whom we have mailing addresses
> Radha Burnier International President
> INTERNET: THEOS-L
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 10:01:38 GMT
From: mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com Michael W. Grenier
Subject: Re: John Algeo's Letter to Members
theos-l@vnet.net writes:
>There were at last count just over 100 subscribers to this
>list of which an active 13 have signed up in support of TI. If
>you haven't signed up this to anyone is it because of some
>objection of principle? Some other reason? I *really* would
>like to know and with the exception of nit-picking over the
>actual wording used think there could be a useful discussion on
>the list about this.
Alan
I think I was swamped at about the time discussions of TI went around.
Could someone tell be the principles associated with this.
-Mike Grenier
mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 11:38:47 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Torn Inside
Herewith a progress report on my research for a book about
Edgar Cayce with comments relevant to Theosophical and Baha'i
concerns.
At present I'm in the middle of Vol. 07 of the Cayce Library
Series each volume averaging 500 pages with 18 to go I
skipped #5; there are 24 total. The first volume is excerpts
from the readings on Life and Death. The next two volumes are
Meditation I and II; then come Dreams and Dreaming I and II
after 600 pages of dream interpretations I needed a break;
thus skipping Vol. V. Sixth comes Early Christian Era just
finished; #7 is Study Group Readings. While I feel more and
more sure that this is something I must write about and must
therefore spend the next year or two studying there is a very
definite ambivalence developing; an inner split that causes
something which feels like emotional fabric being ripped.
The inner tearing comes between the intensely positive lyrical
mysticism evoked by the Meditation readings the Life and Death
volume and the Study Group readings and the loud screeching
of my bullshit detector set off by the Early Christian
readings-- with the dream material at an intermediate level of
moderate interest and appreciation. The Early Christian volume
reveals that dozens nay scores of people who got past life
readings from Cayce *just happened* to have been eyewitnesses
to the life of Christ. Without arguing for my perception I'll
simply state that I *intuit* that this is simply regurgitation
of the Bible turned into fictional past lives not done with
deceptive intent but rather fulfilling some psychic need of
Christians to imagine themselves living in immediate proximity
to their Lord. It definitely comes across at a much lower
level of plausibility than the medical readings or the
psychological advice on attitudes and emotions or several
other elements of Cayce's work. On the other hand the
Atlantis descriptions and prophecies of drastic earth changes
will also set the BS detector off no doubt.
So there's the feeling of "Oh no all this wonderful
uplifting helpful solid advice on meditation and dreams on
basic patterns of living RUINED by nutty implausible occult
pretensions about past lives future earthquakes lost
civilizations." And an inner ...rrrrip... as
the part of me that finds overwhelming value in *some* of Cayce's readings
*resists* the awareness that there is some *junk mail* in the
akashic records.
Here now to Theosophical and Baha'i parallels. The very same
stress between part of one that sees immense spiritual wisdom
and clarity in a source and another part that sees misleading
dangerous and even *silly* elements in the very same source's
teachings-- has been felt in those other contexts. From that
small sample I conclude that probably *any* spiritual
affiliation sets up a force field in which one must contend
with the cognitive dissonance between those parts that *ring
true* and those parts that *thunk* and just don't seem
plausible. Each of us who contends with that dissonance has an
evolving capacity to work out the conflicts. But there are
many strategies and we probably experience most of them along
the way. True believers been there done that whether in Blavatsky
Baha'u'llah Cayce etc. simply say "I
*know* the inner voice telling me of the ultimate spiritual
authenticity of this message is reliable; therefore the other
inner voice saying `watch out this stuff is fill of holes' is to
be *ignored* *silenced* and *destroyed.*"
On the other hand the cynic says "I know that the flaws my
critical reasoning finds in this system are really there I
trust my thinking and the evidence *therefore* when I was
imagining some ultimate spiritual value to the teachings it was
all *imagination and self-deception.*" So people define
themselves as believers or unbelievers thereby missing out on
a great growth opportunity. To feel *simultaneously* the awe
reverence joy of recognizing something as emanating from a
divine source *and* the unease regret and perplexity caused by
recognizing that it has been contaminated distorted and
limited by *human contraints* is the beginning of wisdom.
I'm sure that sorting out the wheat from the chaff in the Cayce
readings will lead into controversies based on past experience
with Theosophists and Baha'is. But the compulsion to
separate fact from fiction is the fuel that keeps the search
for truth going forward step by step day by day.
Happy holidays to everyone still reading at this point!
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 13:11:55 GMT
From: Coherence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Anonymity and other issues
I will now be the first to say that this issue has gotten a bit overblown at
this point. I saw no need to provide my real name and as has been pointed
out if I truly wanted anonymity I would have taken greater measures. I did
not because I did not care. I have no hard feelings whatsoever and am not
offended. Refer to me however you like.
The "condescending" accusation is a difficult one to defend without resorting
to "No I'm not!" So the approach I will take is to talk about perceptions
and where I am coming from and what I have learned from all of you.
First I have to attribute a certain amount of over-sensitivity to you KPJ
due to the withering contumely heaped on your pour head the last year. Such
assault wreaks havoc on the nervous system so that the slightest rub even if
only perceived produces a pain not unlike the original. And may I be so
bold as to presume that the assault and accusations directed at you did not
all come from the collective condescension of the "ULT Brahmins" but rather
from your TS Brothers? In this specific instance the sweeping
characterisation of ULT students was inappropriate and also assumes that I am
a member or associate of ULT which I have not claimed.
On the other hand in your defense I have witnessed the attitude you refer
to in some of the ULT associates. The "Brahmin" characterisation is
interesting. Oversimplifying the "Brahmins" of India attempted to maintain
blood lines as well as to pass on the esoteric teachings of their Hindu
tradition. They had the "real" teaching and were the royalty so to speak.
The main purpose of ULT is "loyalty to the Founders of the Theosophical
Movement." And in this they maintain the "original" or "source" teachings
unaltered in facsimile form so that when someone wants to know what
Theosophy teaches ULT can point to the original stuff and say "Here it is."
Many of the other TS branches cannot say that and I suppose that gives ULT
students their aire odor? of distinction.
Because of this attitude I too have perceived I recently wrote an article
for a publication put out by ULT students addressing this very issue.
Basically my point was that from my experience here on the Internet with
you I have learned that there is a wide variety of expressions of Theosophy
by as many students and one should not be too quick to label something as
"Not Theosophy" or a student as "Not a Theosophist" It is the exposure to
other ideas that liberalizes and ULT students need a bit of liberalizing.
So on this point I have to agree with you and because of my agreement with
you it is difficult to have the condescending accusation stick.
On the other hand my opinion of the TS was formed about 8-10 years ago when
I considered traveling to Wheaton to participate in whatever study
groups/lectures they had on Theosophy. Upon requesting a schedule I
discovered that a cornucopia of classes and lectures were offered at all
times every day of the week. But there was not one class/lecture on
Theosophy. So where does one go if learning about Theosophy is desired? My
perception is an over-emphasis on the 2nd object to the point where the
teachings of Theosophy itself are neglected. This attitude manifests here on
the Internet in the TS membership where I am confronting attitudes that are
foreign to me and many of which I firmly disagree with. Are all dissenter
condescending? At times it is disturbing but as mentioned above
enlightening at the same time. However the "sad state of most Theosophists
on theos-l" words are yours and not mine. Please limit your personal
projections onto me.
Your comment on my "best laught" at your words about Cayce as being
condescending. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding. In your post of the
Theosophist's reply to the Caycian words "God loves you" I genuinely
thought you were being funny. It is the humor which can result when we see
ourselves in the mirror which is reflecting our countenance a little too
clearly. I got a great chuckle out of it and I thought I was laughing with
you.
A final comment about the political discussions I have only been
encouraging if blunt. I have stated and this can be verified "Get
organized change the system correct the poor judgement of the board assert
yourselves make the TS into the group the Masters intended or get rid of
it and follow the philosophy on your own." I find it difficult to
understand how suggesting that this take place on a separate list devoted to
such matters is condescending.
I have spoken my piece in my defense. It is the Holidays. All of you have
taught me something and I thank you. Friends?
Coherence.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 15:14:08 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: to Alan Keith and Coherence
According to theos-l@vnet.net:
>
> Alan
> --
> Member Theosophy International - how about you?
Alan--
I asked to be signed up in a private email but have yet to
appear on the list. So now I'll ask publicly-- please sign me
up. I'm glad to be #14 instead of #13!
Keith--
> Some might find the idea of a mediation focused on the solstice as a little
> naive a little childish a little primitive and frankly a little low class
> --kind of like using an idol for prayer or something. Zen and other types of
> "pure" meditation would tend to merge the object of contemplation and the ego
> in a kind of grand unity. Yet depth ecology and other movements bewail our
> seperation from the natural cyles. Some people experience depression in the
> cold winter light. Our bodies still long for a sign a symbol a synchronicity
> to echo our inner processes of despair release and renewal..
You might find Purucker's The Four Sacred Seasons of interest.
See you in Shambhala tonight :
Gregory/Coherence--
> First I have to attribute a certain amount of over-sensitivity to you KPJ
> due to the withering contumely heaped on your pour head the last year. Such
> assault wreaks havoc on the nervous system so that the slightest rub even if
> only perceived produces a pain not unlike the original. And may I be so
> bold as to presume that the assault and accusations directed at you did not
> all come from the collective condescension of the "ULT Brahmins" but rather
> from your TS Brothers?
True enough about my oversensitivity to personal criticism and
condemnation in the wake of a rough year. Which I will be
glad to see end. But I didn't feel *personally* condescended
to but just one of many on the list. Am glad to learn that
you don't intend to communicate this. As for where the
assaults and accusations come from first consider that the
*only* favorable reviews comments or letters my books have received from
Theosophists have come from the Adyar TS members: Edward Hower
in the New York Times Book Review Joy Mills in The
Quest Claire Walker in Reflections of a Theosophist John
Cooper in Theosophy in Australia Stephan Hoeller in Gnosis
Bill Laudahn in a letter to The Quest Jerry H-E forgot the
publication name and several kind people
here. Whereas the two negative reviews I've seen came from a
single person also in the Adyar TS. As for condemnations in
other formats how many of these are ULT associates: D. Ten Broeck
D. Eklund N. Weeks aren't they both Adyar and ULT?
R. Townley M. Kirschenbaum D. Caldwell who years ago ignored my
question about his Theosophical affiliation about
which I therefore remain ignorant? Not that I'm keeping
score; as you see I don't even know the affiliations of most of
these people. But ULT does seem overrepresented as far as I
can tell; and despite some real pain over the two bad Adyar
reviews I feel that at least this society has room for vigorous
differences of opinion which doesn't seem the case elsewhere
in the movement as much.
In this specific instance the sweeping
> characterisation of ULT students was inappropriate and also assumes that I am
> a member or associate of ULT which I have not claimed.
It seemed you had implied it. Sorry. Are you not?
>
> Because of this attitude I too have perceived I recently wrote an article
> for a publication put out by ULT students addressing this very issue.
> Basically my point was that from my experience here on the Internet with
> you I have learned that there is a wide variety of expressions of Theosophy
> by as many students and one should not be too quick to label something as
> "Not Theosophy" or a student as "Not a Theosophist" It is the exposure to
> other ideas that liberalizes and ULT students need a bit of liberalizing.
> So on this point I have to agree with you and because of my agreement with
> you it is difficult to have the condescending accusation stick.
So that was you in Ergates? I credited Rich with the piece--
shows what anonymity can do.
>
> foreign to me and many of which I firmly disagree with. Are all dissenter
> condescending?
No I have just found the "not adhering enough to the lines
laid down" argument from ULT members as somewhat condescending
in its expression. The tone of the book The Theosophical
Movement 1875-1950 certainly is towards Adyar and Pasadena
but that has nothing to do with you.
At times it is disturbing but as mentioned above
> enlightening at the same time. However the "sad state of most Theosophists
> on theos-l" words are yours and not mine. Please limit your personal
> projections onto me.
Gotta plead innocent here. I wasn't projecting anything just
describing the impression conveyed by some of your "I'm
appalled by you people" messages early on-- which you may not
have been aware of.
>
> Your comment on my "best laught" at your words about Cayce as being
> condescending. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding. In your post of the
> Theosophist's reply to the Caycian words "God loves you" I genuinely
> thought you were being funny. It is the humor which can result when we see
> ourselves in the mirror which is reflecting our countenance a little too
> clearly. I got a great chuckle out of it and I thought I was laughing with
> you.
Sorry; at first I thought that's what you meant but then
started to think it was my "God loves you anyway" that you
found amusing-- which was OK too. Guilty to oversensitivity.
>
> A final comment about the political discussions I have only been
> encouraging if blunt. I have stated and this can be verified "Get
> organized change the system correct the poor judgement of the board assert
> yourselves make the TS into the group the Masters intended or get rid of
> it and follow the philosophy on your own." I find it difficult to
> understand how suggesting that this take place on a separate list devoted to
> such matters is condescending.
OK.
>
> I have spoken my piece in my defense. It is the Holidays. All of you have
> taught me something and I thank you. Friends?
Friends.
Paul
trying to come up with something like "Coherence" or
"Perspicacity" that fits-- how about "Persistence"? I've got
more of that than coherence or perspicacity alas.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 15:14:51 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Torn Inside
>The Early Christian volume
>reveals that dozens nay scores of people who got past life
>readings from Cayce *just happened* to have been eyewitnesses
>to the life of Christ.
That's nothing Paul. When I was speaking at the big "Aquarian Revelation
Center" ARC extravaganza held in Detroit quite a few years ago I had to
follow a nationally known "regression hypnotist." This man was was generally
regarded by the audience as someone whose techniques "proved reincarnation."
With considerable drama he proceeded to hypnotize a middle-aged lady and
then systematically take her down memory lane to her birth and then into her
"immediately previous incarnation."
"What year are you in now" the hypnotist asked.
"1821" she replied.
"And what is your current location?"
"Atlantis" she answered.
Your whole post was great Paul.
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 15:29:38 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Torn Inside
On 21 199512 K. Paul Johnson wrote:
> So people define
> themselves as believers or unbelievers thereby missing out on
> a great growth opportunity. To feel *simultaneously* the awe
> reverence joy of recognizing something as emanating from a
> divine source *and* the unease regret and perplexity caused by
> recognizing that it has been contaminated distorted and
> limited by *human contraints* is the beginning of wisdom.
This is an awesome paragraph.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 15:42:22 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Internet
Bee B:
>I have found internet a good communication medium for me as I have had to
>organise my thoughts and knowledge system so that I could try to make
>intellegent remarks that had coherence. I know a lot of stuff but I
>discovered that it was rather all over the place in my mind so it has been
>good for me. I also enjoy all the posts. I have just borrowed from my
>daughter and am now the proud possessor of a Pentium 90 with Windows 95.
>What fun. Sorry just had to show off.
>This list is good to read as there aren't a whole lot of posts from people
>who talk nonsense as there are on many of the newsgroups that I subscribe
>to. The one on Meditation is generally hopeless. An e-mail list like this
>one is very educative.
I've found this to be my experience as well.
Speaking of hardware: My husband and I started in 1982 with an Atari 800 48K
and a NovaCat 300 baud modem. Last year he built me a 486-50 with 16 meg of
memory and running Windows 3.1. It took him all the time between Christmas and
New Years and he had parts all over the place on beach towels.
I also agree with Mr. Coherence that this list exposes one to many different
viewpoints and opinions which is very good.
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 15:51:43 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Returns of Christ
>Date: 20 199512 194722 -0500
>Errors-To: jem@vnet.net
>Reply-To: theos-l@vnet.net
>Originator: theos-l@vnet.net
>Sender: theos-l@vnet.net
>Precedence: none
>From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
>To: Multiple recipients of list
>Subject: Returns of Christ
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>
>
>> If we define the Christ as an archetype
>> of the collective unconscious it seems fair to say that He/It
>> *has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above.
>> Returned in many new forms and with conflicting messages.
>
>Jesus in the gospel accounts also gives conflicting messages!
>At one point he is quoted as saying he has come only to the lost
>sheep of the house of Israel and elsewhere accepts gentiles
>into his following.
>
>I guess God's son is just confused in whatever guise we find
>him. Should have had a daughter if you ask me which you
>probably don't.
>
>:- Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
Alan thanks for the compliment but what makes you think a daughter would
be any less confused than a son? Confused in a different way perhaps but
confused nonetheless until Nirvana
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 16:47:40 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
Fascinating. How would you compare or contrast the system to let us say
the pathworking on the Tree of Life?
Chuck
might have met at summer
school.
Chuck
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 16:58:28 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Anonymity and other issues
Dear Coherence
I'm of the opinion that you can call yourself anything you enjoy calling
yourself. I don't mind either that Alan Bain calls himself guru Nellie or
Arthur Patterson Taliesin. I don't see that it's any different than my
using the name Liesel. Everyone to their own dream! Liesel happens to be my
given name but in Germany there are so many Liesels that it's almost an
archetype. Liesel was the girl who in the middle ages minded the geese and
her companion was Hans. Hans & Liesel is like Jack & Jill... I know a little
boy of 03 Samora who calls himself Power Ranger. I don't know of anyone who
takes offense at that or tells him "no you're not you're lying". We play
along with his game. It's fun! Matter of fact I made him a cardboard sword
for hallowe'en & he was so strong a Power Ranger that he bent it right
away & I had to remember my Cub Scout crafts to make a 2d one twice as
strong for a real Power Ranger. His parents had something else in mind for
him. They're South African blacks. Samora was the name of a prominent
Mozambican who was mysteriously killed in a plane accident. The little boy
is the "reincarnation" in a way.
I'm not for discussing Wheaton politics on a separate list either.
It would be nice if we could help fashion a TS in the spirit the Masters
intended. Unfortunately we seem to be such an independent lot that we need
to quibbble all the time about who's righter. It would be great I think if
to our independent thinking we could add a few smidgeons of tolerance.
I can't erace the rest of this letter which is your original. I also can't
independently send a message. My system is blinking. I put my message on
top so you don't need to reread the whole thing.
Thanks for contributing to this list.
Happy Holidays
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
>I will now be the first to say that this issue has gotten a bit overblown at
>this point. I saw no need to provide my real name and as has been pointed
>out if I truly wanted anonymity I would have taken greater measures. I did
>not because I did not care. I have no hard feelings whatsoever and am not
>offended. Refer to me however you like.
>
>The "condescending" accusation is a difficult one to defend without resorting
>to "No I'm not!" So the approach I will take is to talk about perceptions
>and where I am coming from and what I have learned from all of you.
>
>First I have to attribute a certain amount of over-sensitivity to you KPJ
>due to the withering contumely heaped on your pour head the last year. Such
>assault wreaks havoc on the nervous system so that the slightest rub even if
>only perceived produces a pain not unlike the original. And may I be so
>bold as to presume that the assault and accusations directed at you did not
>all come from the collective condescension of the "ULT Brahmins" but rather
>from your TS Brothers? In this specific instance the sweeping
>characterisation of ULT students was inappropriate and also assumes that I am
>a member or associate of ULT which I have not claimed.
>
>On the other hand in your defense I have witnessed the attitude you refer
>to in some of the ULT associates. The "Brahmin" characterisation is
>interesting. Oversimplifying the "Brahmins" of India attempted to maintain
>blood lines as well as to pass on the esoteric teachings of their Hindu
>tradition. They had the "real" teaching and were the royalty so to speak.
> The main purpose of ULT is "loyalty to the Founders of the Theosophical
>Movement." And in this they maintain the "original" or "source" teachings
>unaltered in facsimile form so that when someone wants to know what
>Theosophy teaches ULT can point to the original stuff and say "Here it is."
> Many of the other TS branches cannot say that and I suppose that gives ULT
>students their aire odor? of distinction.
>
>Because of this attitude I too have perceived I recently wrote an article
>for a publication put out by ULT students addressing this very issue.
> Basically my point was that from my experience here on the Internet with
>you I have learned that there is a wide variety of expressions of Theosophy
>by as many students and one should not be too quick to label something as
>"Not Theosophy" or a student as "Not a Theosophist" It is the exposure to
>other ideas that liberalizes and ULT students need a bit of liberalizing.
> So on this point I have to agree with you and because of my agreement with
>you it is difficult to have the condescending accusation stick.
>
>On the other hand my opinion of the TS was formed about 8-10 years ago when
>I considered traveling to Wheaton to participate in whatever study
>groups/lectures they had on Theosophy. Upon requesting a schedule I
>discovered that a cornucopia of classes and lectures were offered at all
>times every day of the week. But there was not one class/lecture on
>Theosophy. So where does one go if learning about Theosophy is desired? My
>perception is an over-emphasis on the 2nd object to the point where the
>teachings of Theosophy itself are neglected. This attitude manifests here on
>the Internet in the TS membership where I am confronting attitudes that are
>foreign to me and many of which I firmly disagree with. Are all dissenter
>condescending? At times it is disturbing but as mentioned above
>enlightening at the same time. However the "sad state of most Theosophists
>on theos-l" words are yours and not mine. Please limit your personal
>projections onto me.
>
>Your comment on my "best laught" at your words about Cayce as being
>condescending. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding. In your post of the
>Theosophist's reply to the Caycian words "God loves you" I genuinely
>thought you were being funny. It is the humor which can result when we see
>ourselves in the mirror which is reflecting our countenance a little too
>clearly. I got a great chuckle out of it and I thought I was laughing with
>you.
>
>A final comment about the political discussions I have only been
>encouraging if blunt. I have stated and this can be verified "Get
>organized change the system correct the poor judgement of the board assert
>yourselves make the TS into the group the Masters intended or get rid of
>it and follow the philosophy on your own." I find it difficult to
>understand how suggesting that this take place on a separate list devoted to
>such matters is condescending.
>
>I have spoken my piece in my defense. It is the Holidays. All of you have
>taught me something and I thank you. Friends?
>
>Coherence.
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 18:53:47 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: By-Law Irregularities
Reflections on the TSA
[A bit longer than I intended ... sorry gang -:]
Reading the letter from the Lodge Presidents the first and
perhaps most dramatic thing that struck me was the seemingly
strange contradiction: Here is a National Board and President who
are attempting a significant alteration of the By-Laws and in
the attempt itself apparently don't consider the current By-Laws
important enough to conform to.
The paradox resolves itself by focussing on the precise
*nature* of the By-Laws HQ is attempting to pass and that of
those being ignored. And the resolution is deeply disturbing
because it inadvertantly shines a terribly bright light on the
intentions operating behind the revisions. Notice: the By-Laws HQ
is trying to pass especially those that are clearly quite
upsetting to even some long-time members all concern shifting
financial and political power *from* members and Lodges and *to*
centralized control from HQ. The By-Laws being *ignored* in the
process of attempting to gain this control are precisely those
whose purpose it is to provide a *check* on the power of HQ;
those designed to provide the membership with full information in
an adequate and timely enough way to either vote with reason in
favor or organize the opposition needed to oppose; those meant
to assure that balloting is done in such a way as to make certain
that the process of balloting itself does not bias the results in
one direction or another. HQ is asking the membership to grant it
greater power and control at the same time as demonstrating it
can't be trusted to correctly use even the power it currently
has.
And I'm not sure what is more upsetting ... the thought that
these By-Laws were *purposely* avoided in an attempt to
accomplish the revisions before opposition could build or the
thought that those at HQ consider the opinion of the membership
to be of so little relevance that they didn't even think it
important to follow the By-Laws designed to protect the members'
voices.
Any institution that governs itself as a democracy or a
representative republic exists by virtue of the maintenance of
carefully balanced power. The brilliance of democracy is that it
begins with the assumption that individuals are autonomous beings
possessed of free will integrity and the right to participate
in choices affecting them while at the same time recognizing
that these individuals are imperfect beings. Democracy is now
relatively taken for granted at least in some places but we
must remember that it really is a relatively new idea or rather
an old idea whose widespread practice is relatively new that it
is a profoundly *spiritual* idea and to be an effective *leader*
in a democracy requires an integrated mature human psyche ...
capable of being *other-oriented*.
This is the case even in national democracies where the
state has the coercive power of legitimate force to impose its
will. But it is doubly the case when the organization is a
completely voluntary association of individuals who can easily
just leave the organization if they begin to feel as though they
are treated as *subjects of* rather than *participants in* the
organization.
I have worked with several public interest non-profits and
work daily to build membership and involvement in one currently
and as I was at a meeting today just after reading the post I'm
responding to here containing several Board members the
Executive Director and a project coordinator I was struck by
the fact the while we were engaged in the planning of a somewhat
large project that required us to make a series of decisions the
entire discussion was completely pervaded by the thought that *we
were acting on behalf of the membership* ... and in fact a couple
decisions that would possibly slightly alter the ideological
tenor of the organization were postponed with the agreement that
each of us would personally speak to a number of members to get a
sense of what would be acceptable to the membership as a whole.
That is as is the case with many such organizations while we
were at Headquarters and certainly had the *legal* power to do
whatever we wished we did not for a moment forget that we
existed *at the pleasure of the membership and as agents of its
will*: That our role was not to attempt to go against its wishes
but rather to focus and pragmatically express them.
Perhaps some of the *problem* with the current TSA is that
its various Trusts to some degree insulate its leadership from
needing to pay attention to the membership. Membership could drop
in half and the salaries of the staff and the heating bill at
Wheaton would still get paid. This is positive in that it permits
HQ to operate in something other than crisis mode which many
non-profits do but can easily be very negative ... as it allows
the President and Board to pursue their own personal visions
oblivious to whether they are at all in tune with the membership
and without even defining and analyzing whether they are
successful. The TSA leadership seems to operate as though the
moment it is elected it no longer even needs to reference the
membership or even in fact reference the By-Laws that
*require* it to reference the membership in some actions.
This is now so internalized that members have become
accustomed to judging by this standard which only looks strange
when compared to other organizations ... for instance several
people have lately mentioned that if serious opposition
continued and positive suggestions were made John Algeo would
be open to listening to them though none of even his supporters
have implied he would actually feel compelled to *act* on what he
heard - and this is said almost as though this listening is a
gift he would give as though he it were a thing that
distinguished him as a leader. It is not a *virtue* for the
President of a voluntary democratic organization to *listen* to
its membership its a damn *minimum requirement*.
He is *not* our king our pope or our Master ... he is our
*EMPLOYEE*.
There has recently been discussions about the TSA's abysmal
membership retention record ... in which it is the norm that a
significant majority of new members leave after their first year;
various different conflicting theories have been put forward as
to exactly why this is but it occurs to me that this is the only
organization I've ever been involved with in which such a
discussion would take place at all. Any other organization would
consider such a retention rate as a *serious* problem ... and
would not *theorize* for years as to why it was the case but
would *find out* why. Why hasn't a substantial study been done?
Why hasn't a statistically significant sample of those who
silently left been *polled* by phone or mail ... *asked* why they
left? Obviously Theosophy still has a potent magnetic force
somewhere within it or it wouldn't attract so many in the first
place ... what then is the *equally powerful* force that then
repels so many it attracted? And why isn't this even considered
important enough to find out? Why in short do we not consider
that there is any obligation to adjust the expression of
Theosophy to the changing culture and era we live in live in
with the Humanity we are allegedly supposed to be serving.
Perhaps because it seems as though an unstated attitude
throughout HQ and held by some members as well is that TS
membership is a *gift* granted by HQ to petitioners ... almost
as though its believed that those who leave weren't ready for or
worthy of the gift.
But to be very blunt just *what is this gift*? Why should
someone join or remain a member? For the teachings? Well the
books are available or can be ordered in almost any bookstore.
I sure don't need HQ to study the Secret Doctrine. For the Quest
magazine? Also can be purchased on the newsstand. Certainly not
for the AT ... which is no longer the member's forum HQ *promised
the membership it would be* when it split from Quest but is now
an ideologically controlled platform.
To be even blunter *why should I pay HQ $30.00 a year why
should my Lodge make the effort to keep members current in their
dues for the privilege of being told by HQ what we must study if
we want to continue having the honor of giving HQ our money?*.
"Well" some might say "that's a selfish attitude ... our
ideal is an ideal of service". And this feeling keeps some from
leaving because HQ has carefully over the years cultivated the
feeling that supporting the TS is identical with supporting
*Theosophy* that somehow membership in the TSA is a *link* to a
current generated by the Masters and hence a link to the
Masters. That in essence supporting the TSA is somehow *serving
the Masters*. This *was* the case *when HPB was alive and the
Masters actively involved*. But as harsh as it is to question
this link is by no means any longer the case and IMO we must
be pragmatic about the fact that belief in this link permits the
possibility of great abuses. [The same formula that shows up far
more clearly when glimpsed on a lower curve of the spiral is
what permits people like Jim Jones and David Koresh to do what
they did to their followers: link yourself to a "higher power"
Jesus in their cases convince followers that to remain
connected to you is to remain connected to that power that to
*leave you is to break connection with the power* and you can
literally lead people to their *deaths* without causing them to
defect].
We are I believe *confusing* our spirituality with our
politics instead of *integrating* our spirituality *into* our
politics.
The confusion ... allows small groups of people to
periodically take control of HQ pursue their pet project send
friends on speaking engagements all over the country hire
friends and even relatives and engage in all sorts of behavior
that in most other organizations would cause serious drops in
membership - that is to *use the devotion to the Masters in
members for their own ends*. If for a moment we look at the
behavior of HQ separate it from Theosophy and judge it by the
standards we would judge any other non-profit service
organization it appears as though we are witnessing what is
nothing other than an outright bald-faced power-grab
deliberately planned and pursued with intensely manipulative
means that HQ has not even bothered to hide. The confusion
between politics and spirituality has permitted it to go this
far as people *want* to believe in good motives at HQ *want* to
give the actions a positive interpretation ... and some few
perhaps even wish to believe that the Masters are still guiding
the actions of HQ no doubt as the result of Radha's prayers tee
hee. And HQ offers explanations designed to satisfy. But *come
on* were spirituality and politics not confused could anyone
*really* believe that *spending a quarter of a million of our
dollars suing one of our own Lodges* was the exercise of pure
intentions in the service of Theosophy?
*Integrating* our spirituality into our politics would mean
something entirely different ... would mean that we wanted to
make our organization itself into a living practical expression
of our philosophy. It would mean we wouldn't consider it
wonderful when our leadership managed to *come up to* the
standards of the average modern non-profit but would want as an
organization to be setting an exemplary standard of
organizational conduct. To be trying to demonstrate what the
teachings of the Masters *look like in practice* ... trying to
demonstrate what a service organization would look like run
without games and manipulation by people striving to act with
genuinely pure intent ... assuming its membership to be fully
capable of self-determination at the Lodge level and composed of
souls who it is a true honor to be given the privilege to serve
seeing the membership not as a pile of unruly children that must
be coerced and can't even be trusted with "complex" information
but rather as composed of a hidden brilliance that simply needs
to be *unleashed* ... a membership that then radiates this
attitude outward into the world seeing humanity not as so many
"masses" mostly too dim to be "ready" for Theosophy but as
billions of heroic souls together beginning the long hard climb
out of the densest spiral into matter who need - not
condescension but rather living breathing *models* of
*conscious travellers of the road* who will embrace them ... with
the intention of reminding them of the star within their cores -
reminding them of that home we all left so terribly long ago.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 22:30:42 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re:Internet
>To: Lewis Lucas
>
>beg to differ re the internet being a poor communications medium. I know I
>cant' see you folks but talking to you on the internet beats not talking to
>any Theosophists at all which is what I had before I begged borrowed &
>didn't steal money to get me a computer. I'm accepting whatever "face"
>anyone shows me on the internet without worrying too much about what other
>faces they might present in person.
>
>Liesel
>
Hi Liesel
I have found internet a good communication medium for me as I have had to
organise my thoughts and knowledge system so that I could try to make
intellegent remarks that had coherence. I know a lot of stuff but I
discovered that it was rather all over the place in my mind so it has been
good for me. I also enjoy all the posts. I have just borrowed from my
daughter and am now the proud possessor of a Pentium 90 with Windows 95.
What fun. Sorry just had to show off.
This list is good to read as there aren't a whole lot of posts from people
who talk nonsense as there are on many of the newsgroups that I subscribe
to. The one on Meditation is generally hopeless. An e-mail list like this
one is very educative. >
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 21 Dec 1996 23:05:51 GMT
From: bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Bee Brown
Subject: Re: Musings of a Theosophical Heretic
>>5. Does anyone really care about the rounds and the chains and why should
>>they?
>>Have fun.
>>Chuck Cosimano
>
> Well I certainly do. Why? Magic. Unless you practice some form
>of astral traveling or "pathworking" in which you use the model of the
planetary
>
>chain of globes as a map of the inner worlds then you probably won't care
>very much. But as a map of the inner or invisible worlds I think that HPB has
>done us a real service and I personally find her description of the planetary
>chain the cornerstone of theosophy and the cement so to speak that holds
>all of the theosophical "core teachings" together.
>
> Jerry S.
>
Having just made the effort to study this topic I agree. I see things quite
differently since gaining a little understanding of how it all hangs
together. Somehow I have accepted that I have been around for ever and will
be around for ever and that has given life a new dimension. Globes and
rounds also need to be understood in the evolutionary model to come to
grips with life-atoms monads. I realise now that my previous attempts to
understand Swedenborg's Grand Man has laid the framework to fit the
life-atom concept in to. I has been much easier to think about it all. I had
never really bothered with globes and rounds as I thought it too hard to get
to grips with but now a glimmer is seen and it is fascinating.>
>
Bee Brown
Member Theosophy International
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 01:29:05 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Re: Dark Nights and Brighter Days
>
> I tried to find the path Capricorn represents in the kabala but couldn't.
> Perhaps this too is as well. Saturn in some systems is Binah the dark
> archetypal watery mother-womb--cryptically referred to as UNDERSTANDING.
"PATH TWENTY-SIX
"The Renewing Intelligence. Thereby God reneweth all which is
capable of renovation in the creation of the world."
Sepher Yetzirah: The letter Ayin. Laughter. The zodiacal sign
Capricorn.
The Minor Sephiroth: 'Hesed in Assiah.
The Christian Church: The Book of Epistles.
The Greater Tarot: Card fifteen the "Devil."
Commentary: "Thereby God reneweth all which is capable of renova-
tion in the creation of the world."
"One day the Children of God came to attend upon the Eternal and
among them was Satan. So the Eternal said to Satan: Where have
you been? "Round the earth" he answered "roaming about." So
the Eternal asked: Did you notice my servant Job? There is no
one like him on the earth; a sound and honest man who fears God
and shuns evil. "Yes" said Satan "but Job is not God-fearing
for nothing is he? Have you not put a wall round him and his
house and all his domain? You have blessed all he undertakes
and his flocks throng the countryside. But stretch out your hand
and lay a finger on his possessions; I warrant you he will curse
you to your face." The Eternal said to Satan: "Very well; all
he has is in your power but keep your hands off his person."
"Then Jesus was led by the Spirit out into the wilderness to be
tempted by the Devil . . . The Devil showed him all the dominions
of the world and their splendour. "I will give you all of
these" he said "if you worship me." Jesus replied: Be off
Satan!
These instances show a far different picture of the satanic role
than that depicted in the popular imagination or for that
matter in many theological or church circles. It is quite clear
that in Old and New Testament times the role of "Satan" a word
meaning "adversary" was regarded as a legitimate and divinely
approved function.
> But to avoid a hopeless confusion of symbols perhaps the simple idea of the
> solstice is an ending that is also a beginning.
>
> Namaste
> Keith Price
Happy beginning! 25 minutes to Solstice .......
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 01:36:21 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: TI
>
> Alan
> I think I was swamped at about the time discussions of TI went around.
> Could someone tell be the principles associated with this.
>
> -Mike Grenier
> mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com
"THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
thus:
1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
orientation creed class or color.
2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
individual ability and inclination.
3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
human potential and abilities at the same time respecting _all_
life.
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
by any member.
There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
projects or even individuals for particular and specified
purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
activity is an entirely personal matter.
We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
others."
The following internet folk have so far signed up:
Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
Murray Stentiford; Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker; John E. Mead;
John R. Crocker;
Sincerely
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 01:38:12 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Torn Inside
Sundry snips unmarked
> The inner tearing comes between the intensely positive lyrical
> mysticism evoked by the Meditation readings the Life and Death
> volume and the Study Group readings and the loud screeching
> of my bullshit detector set off by the Early Christian
> readings-- with the dream material at an intermediate level of
> moderate interest and appreciation. The Early Christian volume
> reveals that dozens nay scores of people who got past life
> readings from Cayce *just happened* to have been eyewitnesses
> to the life of Christ. Without arguing for my perception I'll
> simply state that I *intuit* that this is simply regurgitation
> of the Bible turned into fictional past lives not done with
> deceptive intent but rather fulfilling some psychic need of
> Christians to imagine themselves living in immediate proximity
> to their Lord.
Ignatius of Loyala in his ~Spiritual Exercises~ instructs pupils
to undertake this eyewitness activity from within *this present*
life. Now there's a thought.
But yes I think your bullshit detector is working fine. :-
> *resists* the awareness that there is some *junk mail* in the
> akashic records.
Why resist? There's bound to be - *everything* is supposed to
be recorded even I imagine TMR. :-
> To feel *simultaneously* the awe
> reverence joy of recognizing something as emanating from a
> divine source *and* the unease regret and perplexity caused by
> recognizing that it has been contaminated distorted and
> limited by *human contraints* is the beginning of wisdom.
Amen.
> Happy holidays to everyone still reading at this point!
Someone is still reading you Paul!
Peace and joy and all that don't forget to sign up for TI
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 03:21:46 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Returns of Christ
>To: theos-l@vnet.net
>From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
>Subject: Re: Returns of Christ
>I've been trying to put a message on theos-l sending SEASON'S GREETINGS TO
EVERYONE. Somehow my system gets locked & I can only send a reply to
another message. So here goes. ENJOY YOUR HOLIDAYS YOU-ALL.
Liesel
>>>Date: 20 199512 194722 -0500
>>>Errors-To: jem@vnet.net
>>>Reply-To: theos-l@vnet.net
>>>Originator: theos-l@vnet.net
>>>Sender: theos-l@vnet.net
>>>Precedence: none
>>>From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
>>>To: Multiple recipients of list
>>>Subject: Returns of Christ
>>>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>>>
>>>
>
>>>> If we define the Christ as an archetype
>>>> of the collective unconscious it seems fair to say that He/It
>>>> *has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above.
>>>> Returned in many new forms and with conflicting messages.
>>>
>>>Jesus in the gospel accounts also gives conflicting messages!
>>>At one point he is quoted as saying he has come only to the lost
>>>sheep of the house of Israel and elsewhere accepts gentiles
>>>into his following.
>>>
>>>I guess God's son is just confused in whatever guise we find
>>>him. Should have had a daughter if you ask me which you
>>>probably don't.
>>>
>>>:- Alan
>>>--
>>>Member Theosophy International.
>>>Member Human Race.
>>>----------------------------------------
>>>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>>>
>>Alan thanks for the compliment but what makes you think a daughter would
>>be any less confused than a son? Confused in a different way perhaps but
>>confused nonetheless until Nirvana
>>
>>Liesel
>>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 03:40:55 GMT
From: M K Ramadoss
Subject: Searching e-mail address
This morning while I was in cyberspace browsing around I typed in the
key words e-mail and address. The search engine yahoo came with several
locations which provide for searching of e-mail addresses. The search can
be any combination of first name last name organization internet
connection provider such as aol compuserve etc.. When I tried some
names familiar to all of us in the Theosophy world in some cases I came
up with one or two e-mail addresses. This search is like thumbing thru a
phone book except that the computer program does it for you.
It is a great resource for anyone trying to locate the e-mail of an
individual or trying to find the name of the individual.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 07:00:33 GMT
From: mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com Michael W. Grenier
Subject: Re: TI
Alan
I shall decline joining for the present until I can consider the
first object more.
If we define discrimination as "choosing with care | good taste
discernment" Webster's I'm not sure what forming a nucleus
means. Certainly in my own life I discriminate on creed and
sexual orientation. That is not to say that I can't respect
those that have other views.
-Mike Grenier
writes:
>>
>> Alan
>> I think I was swamped at about the time discussions of TI went around.
>> Could someone tell be the principles associated with this.
>>
>> -Mike Grenier
>> mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com
>
>"THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
>three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
>suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
>thus:
>
>1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
>discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
>orientation creed class or color.
>
>2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
>theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
>individual ability and inclination.
>
>3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
>human potential and abilities at the same time respecting _all_
>life.
>
>THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
>whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
>allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
>done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
>by any member.
>
>There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
>donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
>projects or even individuals for particular and specified
>purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
>need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
>activity is an entirely personal matter.
>
>We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
>others."
>
>The following internet folk have so far signed up:
>
>Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
>Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown; Peter Walstra;
>Murray Stentiford; Alan Bain; Jerry Schueler;
>Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker; John E. Mead;
>John R. Crocker;
>
>Sincerely
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
----
Michael W. Grenier mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com
612-456-7869 Loral - Air Traffic Control
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 09:31:01 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: trust problem
At 033700 PM 12/20/95 -0500 Liesel wrote:
>Yesterday both Eldon & Doss wrote something about the debate over the by
>laws revisions & I'd like to respond to some of it.
ascinates me about Theosophy... but the infighting doesn't.
>
>ET "...Positive suggestions for changes in Wheaton's policies..." etc.
>LFD I think John Algeo has introduced a number of changes in policy for the
>better. Ex.: When Dorothy presided we were just informed that there were by
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^
>laws changes. Under John The by laws were published. We were asked to vote
>on the revisions even though discussion was painfully brief. From the
>letters John sent subsequent to some of the protests he's listening. I
>think he really truly believes that these revisions are for the good of the
>TS. The thing is he's inherited an aura of distrust which is hard to dispel.
===============================================================================
MK Ramadoss
I went back and in the Mar/Apr 1993 Vol 81/No 02 issue of
American Theosophist the bylaw changes then under consideration are
discussed in the viewpoint section of Dorothy Abbenhouse the then
President. So from what I have been able to document the way she and the
Board of Directors were handling bylaw changes was that the changes are
first published in AT for purposes of discussion by members and after that
after due consideration at an annual meeting the question shall be put to
membership of TSA for a referendum for their decision. The annual meeting
was scheduled for Aug 1993. That gives a period of five months for
members to discuss and communicate their opinions and views. So it is not
true that at the time of Dorothy Abbenhouse the bylaws were changed and then
the members were just informed. So I would like to present what procedure
was being followed by Dorothy Abbenhouse.
In contrast to what is documented above this time when more
fundamental and serious changes are proposed the procedure exactly opposite
was followed. There was practically no time for discussion by members. The
changes were not published before they were considered at the annual
meeting. The members were asked to vote even before they could hear any
views opposing any one or more of the changes being made. The ballot was
designed in a very tricky manner so that any one who opposes all the changes
has to vote for each item whereas if one wants to vote for all the changes
need only to check one box. Thus making it very tedious to vote against the
proposed changes. No one at the National Board has explained why each of
these actions were taken. I am sure there are valid and good reasons. What
that is needed is a simple convincing explanation. Hope someone will come
out boldly and tell us.
A positive and open and candid communication and quick response for
information requests from interested members is all it takes to improve and
build trust. Trust cannot be built overnight and it takes time like growing
a tree. Early we start on this endeavor better we are. The start has to
come from National Board down and not the other way.
If anyone in the National Board is listening I hope they do
something about the whole situation instead of keeping quite. These problems
are not going to go away that easy. These kinds of problems when continued
to linger only leads to a worser situation and greater problems which
unfortunately becomes more costly and difficult to solve.
============================================================================
=======
>Like I think I should know & not have to ask whether Radha can shut us down
>& how independent we are of Adyar. After all I've been a member for not
>quite 20 years & I've had contact with the TS for 15 more years beyond
>that. How come these things aren't common knowledge? Seems to me I also
>remember that what happens at Board meetings is kept secret as well. If so
>I'd like to know what for. I think John Algeo has written articles several
>times which gave us insights into what goes on in Wheaton. One article in
>the AT gave a picture of what everyone on the Wheaton staff does & I
>thought that was informative. When I asked for an index of available video &
>audio tapes recording lectures & workshops at Wheaton & Ojai I got back a
>thick list. There's skads of useful material. Well I think there's got to
>be a lot more of this kind of interchange to dispel the aura of distrust
>that's been created. I also think that people in the office of the National
>Secretary could be a little less stand offish especially since they're an
>important point of contact for any new members. I've had some weird
>exchanges with them in connection with my new Study Center that I'm trying
>hard to make a go of.
>
>Doss you raise the question as to what the relationship is between the
>General Council the International President and our national officers.
>Who's calling the shots? I think that's a good question.
>You'd also like some more backgrounds info on the revisions in order to be
>able to vote on them intelligently. I think that's a good request. On some
>of those revisions I voted "No" because I wasn't very clear on what they
>actually meant.
=============================================================================
MK Ramadoss
Glad to know at least someone agrees with some of my questions.
============================================================================
>
>You talk about unity & cooperation. My greatest objection to all these
>goings on is that after John Algeoall along was mending fences & we were
>beginning to forget the big fight we had over Bing's elections here whamo
>bango comes something else to cause a rift. We need another rift like we
>need a hole in the head but maybe it's too late for that already.
>
>OK that's a couple of suggestions.
>I think there needs to be a build up of basic trust which used to be there
>under Dora but has eroded since then. As for our relationship with Adyar...
>I don't know. I've never been there.
>
>Liesel
>
================================================================================
MK Ramadoss
It is my hope that in the days and months to come we will get more candid
information on the all the various things many of us have asked for and have
been wondering. Let us wait and see.
..doss
===============================================================================
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 12:25:31 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: By-Law Irregularities
[Sorry if you get this twice but there was a possible bug in the vnet
server when I posted it so I don't think it ever got through -JRC]
Reflections on the TSA
[A bit longer than I intended ... sorry gang -:]
Reading the letter from the Lodge Presidents the first and
perhaps most dramatic thing that struck me was the seemingly
strange contradiction: Here is a National Board and President who
are attempting a significant alteration of the By-Laws and in
the attempt itself apparently don't consider the current By-Laws
important enough to conform to.
The paradox resolves itself by focussing on the precise
*nature* of the By-Laws HQ is attempting to pass and that of
those being ignored. And the resolution is deeply disturbing
because it inadvertantly shines a terribly bright light on the
intentions operating behind the revisions. Notice: the By-Laws HQ
is trying to pass especially those that are clearly quite
upsetting to even some long-time members all concern shifting
financial and political power *from* members and Lodges and *to*
centralized control from HQ. The By-Laws being *ignored* in the
process of attempting to gain this control are precisely those
whose purpose it is to provide a *check* on the power of HQ;
those designed to provide the membership with full information in
an adequate and timely enough way to either vote with reason in
favor or organize the opposition needed to oppose; those meant
to assure that balloting is done in such a way as to make certain
that the process of balloting itself does not bias the results in
one direction or another. HQ is asking the membership to grant it
greater power and control at the same time as demonstrating it
can't be trusted to correctly use even the power it currently
has.
And I'm not sure what is more upsetting ... the thought that
these By-Laws were *purposely* avoided in an attempt to
accomplish the revisions before opposition could build or the
thought that those at HQ consider the opinion of the membership
to be of so little relevance that they didn't even think it
important to follow the By-Laws designed to protect the members'
voices.
Any institution that governs itself as a democracy or a
representative republic exists by virtue of the maintenance of
carefully balanced power. The brilliance of democracy is that it
begins with the assumption that individuals are autonomous beings
possessed of free will integrity and the right to participate
in choices affecting them while at the same time recognizing
that these individuals are imperfect beings. Democracy is now
relatively taken for granted at least in some places but we
must remember that it really is a relatively new idea or rather
an old idea whose widespread practice is relatively new that it
is a profoundly *spiritual* idea and to be an effective *leader*
in a democracy requires an integrated mature human psyche ...
capable of being *other-oriented*.
This is the case even in national democracies where the
state has the coercive power of legitimate force to impose its
will. But it is doubly the case when the organization is a
completely voluntary association of individuals who can easily
just leave the organization if they begin to feel as though they
are treated as *subjects of* rather than *participants in* the
organization.
I have worked with several public interest non-profits and
work daily to build membership and involvement in one currently
and as I was at a meeting today just after reading the post I'm
responding to here containing several Board members the
Executive Director and a project coordinator I was struck by
the fact the while we were engaged in the planning of a somewhat
large project that required us to make a series of decisions the
entire discussion was completely pervaded by the thought that *we
were acting on behalf of the membership* ... and in fact a couple
decisions that would possibly slightly alter the ideological
tenor of the organization were postponed with the agreement that
each of us would personally speak to a number of members to get a
sense of what would be acceptable to the membership as a whole.
That is as is the case with many such organizations while we
were at Headquarters and certainly had the *legal* power to do
whatever we wished we did not for a moment forget that we
existed *at the pleasure of the membership and as agents of its
will*: That our role was not to attempt to go against its wishes
but rather to focus and pragmatically express them.
Perhaps some of the *problem* with the current TSA is that
its various Trusts to some degree insulate its leadership from
needing to pay attention to the membership. Membership could drop
in half and the salaries of the staff and the heating bill at
Wheaton would still get paid. This is positive in that it permits
HQ to operate in something other than crisis mode which many
non-profits do but can easily be very negative ... as it allows
the President and Board to pursue their own personal visions
oblivious to whether they are at all in tune with the membership
and without even defining and analyzing whether they are
successful. The TSA leadership seems to operate as though the
moment it is elected it no longer even needs to reference the
membership or even in fact reference the By-Laws that
*require* it to reference the membership in some actions.
This is now so internalized that members have become
accustomed to judging by this standard which only looks strange
when compared to other organizations ... for instance several
people have lately mentioned that if serious opposition
continued and positive suggestions were made John Algeo would
be open to listening to them though none of even his supporters
have implied he would actually feel compelled to *act* on what he
heard - and this is said almost as though this listening is a
gift he would give as though he it were a thing that
distinguished him as a leader. It is not a *virtue* for the
President of a voluntary democratic organization to *listen* to
its membership its a damn *minimum requirement*.
He is *not* our king our pope or our Master ... he is our
*EMPLOYEE*.
There has recently been discussions about the TSA's abysmal
membership retention record ... in which it is the norm that a
significant majority of new members leave after their first year;
various different conflicting theories have been put forward as
to exactly why this is but it occurs to me that this is the only
organization I've ever been involved with in which such a
discussion would take place at all. Any other organization would
consider such a retention rate as a *serious* problem ... and
would not *theorize* for years as to why it was the case but
would *find out* why. Why hasn't a substantial study been done?
Why hasn't a statistically significant sample of those who
silently left been *polled* by phone or mail ... *asked* why they
left? Obviously Theosophy still has a potent magnetic force
somewhere within it or it wouldn't attract so many in the first
place ... what then is the *equally powerful* force that then
repels so many it attracted? And why isn't this even considered
important enough to find out? Why in short do we not consider
that there is any obligation to adjust the expression of
Theosophy to the changing culture and era we live in live in
with the Humanity we are allegedly supposed to be serving.
Perhaps because it seems as though an unstated attitude
throughout HQ and held by some members as well is that TS
membership is a *gift* granted by HQ to petitioners ... almost
as though its believed that those who leave weren't ready for or
worthy of the gift.
But to be very blunt just *what is this gift*? Why should
someone join or remain a member? For the teachings? Well the
books are available or can be ordered in almost any bookstore.
I sure don't need HQ to study the Secret Doctrine. For the Quest
magazine? Also can be purchased on the newsstand. Certainly not
for the AT ... which is no longer the member's forum HQ *promised
the membership it would be* when it split from Quest but is now
an ideologically controlled platform.
To be even blunter *why should I pay HQ $30.00 a year why
should my Lodge make the effort to keep members current in their
dues for the privilege of being told by HQ what we must study if
we want to continue having the honor of giving HQ our money?*.
"Well" some might say "that's a selfish attitude ... our
ideal is an ideal of service". And this feeling keeps some from
leaving because HQ has carefully over the years cultivated the
feeling that supporting the TS is identical with supporting
*Theosophy* that somehow membership in the TSA is a *link* to a
current generated by the Masters and hence a link to the
Masters. That in essence supporting the TSA is somehow *serving
the Masters*. This *was* the case *when HPB was alive and the
Masters actively involved*. But as harsh as it is to question
this link is by no means any longer the case and IMO we must
be pragmatic about the fact that belief in this link permits the
possibility of great abuses. [The same formula that shows up far
more clearly when glimpsed on a lower curve of the spiral is
what permits people like Jim Jones and David Koresh to do what
they did to their followers: link yourself to a "higher power"
Jesus in their cases convince followers that to remain
connected to you is to remain connected to that power that to
*leave you is to break connection with the power* and you can
literally lead people to their *deaths* without causing them to
defect].
We are I believe *confusing* our spirituality with our
politics instead of *integrating* our spirituality *into* our
politics.
The confusion ... allows small groups of people to
periodically take control of HQ pursue their pet project send
friends on speaking engagements all over the country hire
friends and even relatives and engage in all sorts of behavior
that in most other organizations would cause serious drops in
membership - that is to *use the devotion to the Masters in
members for their own ends*. If for a moment we look at the
behavior of HQ separate it from Theosophy and judge it by the
standards we would judge any other non-profit service
organization it appears as though we are witnessing what is
nothing other than an outright bald-faced power-grab
deliberately planned and pursued with intensely manipulative
means that HQ has not even bothered to hide. The confusion
between politics and spirituality has permitted it to go this
far as people *want* to believe in good motives at HQ *want* to
give the actions a positive interpretation ... and some few
perhaps even wish to believe that the Masters are still guiding
the actions of HQ no doubt as the result of Radha's prayers tee
hee. And HQ offers explanations designed to satisfy. But *come
on* were spirituality and politics not confused could anyone
*really* believe that *spending a quarter of a million of our
dollars suing one of our own Lodges* was the exercise of pure
intentions in the service of Theosophy?
*Integrating* our spirituality into our politics would mean
something entirely different ... would mean that we wanted to
make our organization itself into a living practical expression
of our philosophy. It would mean we wouldn't consider it
wonderful when our leadership managed to *come up to* the
standards of the average modern non-profit but would want as an
organization to be setting an exemplary standard of
organizational conduct. To be trying to demonstrate what the
teachings of the Masters *look like in practice* ... trying to
demonstrate what a service organization would look like run
without games and manipulation by people striving to act with
genuinely pure intent ... assuming its membership to be fully
capable of self-determination at the Lodge level and composed of
souls who it is a true honor to be given the privilege to serve
seeing the membership not as a pile of unruly children that must
be coerced and can't even be trusted with "complex" information
but rather as composed of a hidden brilliance that simply needs
to be *unleashed* ... a membership that then radiates this
attitude outward into the world seeing humanity not as so many
"masses" mostly too dim to be "ready" for Theosophy but as
billions of heroic souls together beginning the long hard climb
out of the densest spiral into matter who need - not
condescension but rather living breathing *models* of
*conscious travellers of the road* who will embrace them ... with
the intention of reminding them of the star within their cores -
reminding them of that home we all left so terribly long ago.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 14:16:57 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Cycles-Continuous Multi-Dimensional Unbroken
Well I did learn a few things from my meditaion on the solstice. I was awake
from about 11:00-3:00 this morning. Yesterday was my last day of work for the
holidays and I was very tired. I wasn't able to meditate really as I had
expected. I went outside. It was raining and the sky was an empty grey. I
did try to focus on the meaning of the solstice point as a beginning of a cycle.
I did feel the energies of Saturn and Capricorn if that meens restriction old
age death learning from lossesdepression and worry. I thought of those on
theos-l and other spiritual groups and what the new year may hold for the world
and peace.
Today when I got up I continued to examine my perhaps over-enthusiam and high
expectations regarding the solstice. I realized that the ancients had parties
and festivals to more exactly mark the event. We choose Christmas and Jan. 01
New Year's Day in the West for our celebrations. Thus the solstice is not
really a discrete event designed to give one a "spiritual experience" but an
event in space from a geocentric point of view that marks an point in a
CONTINUOUS cyle. Like a sine wave or other curve it is not a collection of
points on a Cartesiam Coordinate graph but a smooth continuous FLOW of energy
that our minds and geocentric position see as an "event". A solstice on earth
would be a quite different astronomical allignment on Mars and along the
equator hardly matters at all.
Yet it does symbolizes an opportunity for reflection. We will see on TV and in
print all the "stories of the year" and "people of the year.'" Appropriately
Newt Gingrich is "TIME" magazine's man of the year for some representing the
worst of Capricorn a ruthless stingey Grinchey Scrooge and for others an
idealistic and wise executive doing the hard things that others are afraid to do
for fear of being called "mean spirited".
The Lunar New Year occurs for those using the Eastern Calender in late Jan
of early Feb. So time is in some ways more maya. But still the season as
a whole offers a chance for reflection on material and spritual directions for
the next calender year. THe Capricorn energies are just beginning to be felt.
But there are other cycles at work of course. Spiritual guidance is a precious
thing at any time.
Namaste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 14:21:13 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: TI
So initiate me into Theosophy International.
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 14:36:54 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Computers and Spirituality
When I think about the hours I prostrate myself before the little one-eyed idol
named 486 I wonder if I am getting the same benefit as the Dalai Lama before
the Buddha. Computers can take a large chunk out of one's life and pocketbook.
Some may rememember the work of Marshall McLuhan and his work "The Medium is
the Massage." TV is a cold medium because you have to complete the image. When
I think of people that post on theos-l and other places I think of their words
and have to complete an image of the other 6+ vehicles. I can't see you hear
you smell you or get a "look" at your auras or emotional projections.
One has to use one's intuition to complete a picture based on verbal
communication. Yet we also have to do this one a person is physically present
but we have the advantage of all the non-verbal clues.
Computers started in the cold analytical fields of math science then moved to
business and are now rapidly trying to become warm and fuzzy.
No doubt there will soon be on-line churches if there aren't already.
Computers could possibly be used to cross-reference and analyze elements of
various religious traditions and generate new one--create a new cyber-mythos?
.
1. Do ANSI color characters help? They are use sometime on the local BBS's.
2. How will multi-media particullarly sound and motion aid in the education
and transmission of religious theosophical and other ideas?
3. How are the on-line discussion going on the WWW?
4. For those that are Compuserve do you want to try to meet in an open live
conference room on the "New Age Forum" over the holidays? The are usually
empty except at the time of a scheduled conference? I know there are about
five of us- Ann B Jerry S. Jim M. Don De G.-- and some others? Anyone have a
topic and a time?
Namaste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 18:41:47 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: Re: TI
>Alan
> I shall decline joining for the present until I can consider the
>first object more.
>
>If we define discrimination as "choosing with care | good taste
>discernment" Webster's I'm not sure what forming a nucleus
>means. Certainly in my own life I discriminate on creed and
>sexual orientation. That is not to say that I can't respect
>those that have other views.
Mike -- this is not very different from the TSA #1 object.
what is the problem??
sexual orientation is included but creed seems as an objection to
allowing other people to disagree with you have some alternative opinions??
allowing other creeds does not mean allowing "intolerance".
you are seeing/reading things I seemed to have missed.
peace -
john mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 22 Dec 1996 19:13:51 GMT
From: jem@vnet.net John E. Mead
Subject: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
hi --
I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that the intent
of the
changes were to directly conform with requests from the Adyar/Committee.
We seem to be caught up in an arguement about the implementation vs. the
*intent*
of the changes.
It is clear from e-mail and also snail-mail that we have the following
options:
1 By-Laws get Ratified and several lodges file suit.
2 By-Laws get rejected and we have many within the TSA who do not trust
the TSA administration -- which is not good for anyone/organization. law-suits
would probably follow too
we need new options:
1 we need to allow TSA to gracefully extend the election. This means that they
can extend it *without* blaim -- i.e. backing off can SEEM like a defeat and
be embarrasing. I think that they can decide to postpone elections in a manner
which signifies a *responsive presidency/board* decision which we should
ACCEPT as
an HONEST effort to allow a larger window of discussion. We need to allow
for misunderstandings and communication problems as *honest* problems
due to the current communication networks. NOT as personal attacks against
certain brothers/sisters within our organization.
perhaps we need 9-12 months to really get the arguements out in the open.
we may find it hard to understand but I do not think they TSA had
anticipated
the response to this ballot. We need to set up an environment where the
devisivness is eliminated. this is neccessary to preserve the TSA's
integrity and restore people's faith in the elected members.
2 I have received a letter from Dr. Algeo where the intent of the new By-Laws
were *requested* by International Adyar. However the wording and
implementation
were to be determined by the TSA. Hence --- we have an instance where the
guidelines
were set but the specific implementation needs to have an open discussion esp.
between TSA Chapters/Lodges.
Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged.
peace --
john mead
jem@vnet.net
p.s. send National TSA ideas on how to regain membership confidence
especially regarding these new by-law changes.
p.p.s. this letter is my own idea. I am also sending it to
Theos@netcom and Dr. Algeo.
quote: it is easier to mend fences *before* the cattle stampedes through them.
I think we agree on this.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 00:34:07 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: Re: trust problem
It would seem from the international by-laws that Rahda technically has the
power to excommunicate any national section but considering the size and
economic clout of the Amercian Section such an action on her part would seem
to be sheer insanity.
Chuck
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 00:34:19 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: John Algeo
Gerda and I were at the Wheaton HQ tonight Friday for a solstice program.
After the program was mercifully over it was awful! we ran into John
coming out of his office. He looked terrible! I don't know if he is coming
down with latest bug that is going around or the strain from all this by-law
stuff is getting to him but if any of you out there have some healing energy
to send to him please do so.
Chuck
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 02:23:20 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: Returns of Christ
> >
> >Jesus in the gospel accounts also gives conflicting messages!
> >At one point he is quoted as saying he has come only to the lost
> >sheep of the house of Israel and elsewhere accepts gentiles
> >into his following.
> >
> >I guess God's son is just confused in whatever guise we find
> >him. Should have had a daughter if you ask me which you
> >probably don't.
> >
> >:- Alan
> >
> Alan thanks for the compliment but what makes you think a daughter would
> be any less confused than a son? Confused in a different way perhaps but
> confused nonetheless until Nirvana
>
> Liesel
It would at least have been worth a *try* surely? And who wants
Nirvana? Sounds pretty d... selfish to me. Now a Boddhisatva
sp? - that sound more fun - plenty of things to do you're
considered right on loaded with good karma - a job with
*respect* - KPJ please note! :-
I'm at home all over the holiday and will be on line nightly as
usual for anyone who is interested.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 08:46:51 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Returns of Christ
writes:
>> >
>> >Jesus in the gospel accounts also gives conflicting messages!
>> >At one point he is quoted as saying he has come only to the lost
>> >sheep of the house of Israel and elsewhere accepts gentiles
>> >into his following.
>> >
>> >I guess God's son is just confused in whatever guise we find
>> >him. Should have had a daughter if you ask me which you
>> >probably don't.
>> >
>> >:- Alan
>
>> >
>> Alan thanks for the compliment but what makes you think a daughter would
>> be any less confused than a son? Confused in a different way perhaps but
>> confused nonetheless until Nirvana
>>
>> Liesel
>
>It would at least have been worth a *try* surely? And who wants
>Nirvana? Sounds pretty d... selfish to me. Now a Boddhisatva
>sp? - that sound more fun - plenty of things to do you're
>considered right on loaded with good karma - a job with
>*respect* - KPJ please note! :-
>
>I'm at home all over the holiday and will be on line nightly as
>usual for anyone who is interested.
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
>Ok it'd be worth a try.
I agree with you actually Bodhisattvahood is greatly preferable to Nirvana.
'I'm also at home over Christmas & will be checking my mail after my
company goes home again which they do early. On Christmas Eve my son Dave
is coming. On Christmas Day my computer whiz kid Michael is coming with
his family. Maybe we'll have time to straighten out some kinks in my
programs that I don't know how to do.
Enjoy you holidays Alan
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 09:33:47 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymity & other issues
Liesel
>It would be nice if we could help fashion a TS in the spirit the Masters
>intended. Unfortunately we seem to be such an independent lot that we need
>to quibble all the time about who's righter. It would be great I think if
>to our independent thinking we could add a few smidgens of tolerance.
This correlates to something I was just reading about - the need for diversity.
"Have you ever realized that a group composed entirely of people upon the same
ray and who were also at exactly the same point of evolution would be
relatively futile and useless? Such a group would lack dynamic-the dynamic
which comes into expression when many different ray qualities meet and combine"
Discipleship in the New Age Vol. II p. 107
Maybe that's what makes this mailing list much more interesting. The contrasts
the clashes the fights and the making up. Sounds like a pretty good storyline.
Ann E. Bermingham
PS When my spelling checker hits your name Liesel it wants to change it to
Diesel.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 10:33:52 GMT
From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Torn Inside
Paul:
> as the part of me that finds overwhelming value in *some* of Cayce's readings
>*resists* the awareness that there is some *junk mail* in the
>akashic records.
Good posting Paul. One small point here: there is nothing per se
wrong with the akashic records if one can see them directly. The "junk"
comes when we view them through the astral-mental planes which distort
what is there the akashic records as written by the Lipikas are on the
casual plane which is above the personal ego and very hard for us to view
directly. Because of the distortion when viewing them through the astral
which is to say through our own personal emotions and desires this sort
of thing is discouraged in theosophy. How is one to know if one's viewing
is direct or is being distorted? Basically if you the personality are doing
the viewing then you can rest assure that there is distortion. You have to
shift consciousness to something higher than the ego in order to read
these "records" correctly. Apparently Cayce sometimes did this and
sometimes didn''t. This problem is inherent with the job of clairvoyance
and all psychics are subject to it. It sounds like your job is going to be
trying to sort out which is a direct view and which is a distortion. Like
CWL Cayce was human after all.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 15:19:59 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Torn Inside
KPJ:
The Early Christian volume
>reveals that dozens nay scores of people who got past life
>readings from Cayce *just happened* to have been eyewitnesses
>to the life of Christ. Without arguing for my perception I'll
>simply state that I *intuit* that this is simply regurgitation
>of the Bible turned into fictional past lives not done with
>deceptive intent but rather fulfilling some psychic need of
>Christians to imagine themselves living in immediate proximity
>to their Lord. It definitely comes across at a much lower
>level of plausibility than the medical readings or the
>psychological advice on attitudes and emotions or several
>other elements of Cayce's work.
There is book by Raymond Moody Jr called "Coming Back" A Psychiatrist Explores
Past-Life Journeys in which there are many documented regressions that Moody
claims are really metaphors for problems in one's current life. At the end he
stated that it may be difficult to say which regressions were past lives and
which were simply someone working out there present problem in a story set in
the past.
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 17:09:36 GMT
From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Bill Gates buys Vatican
GOTO
http://www.tach.net/public/personal/scpayne/ihatewin/vatican.html
Ann E. Bermingham
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 23 Dec 1996 23:57:37 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: to Alan Keith and Coherence
> According to theos-l@vnet.net: K. Paul Johnson
> >
> > Alan
> > --
> > Member Theosophy International - how about you?
> Alan--
> I asked to be signed up in a private email but have yet to
> appear on the list. So now I'll ask publicly-- please sign me
> up. I'm glad to be #14 instead of #13!
Oops! - possible that Demon Internet Ltd. lost your mail in one
of their periodic cracks in service. I am pretty sure that
*some* e-mail just doesn't arrive at either end though of late
the situation has imporved by leaps and bounds.
WELCOME!
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 00:01:30 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: TI
> Alan
> I shall decline joining for the present until I can consider the
> first object more.
>
> If we define discrimination as "choosing with care | good taste
> discernment" Webster's I'm not sure what forming a nucleus
> means. Certainly in my own life I discriminate on creed and
> sexual orientation. That is not to say that I can't respect
> those that have other views.
>
> -Mike Grenier
IMO "forming a nucleus" is a beginning providing a focus
around which like-minded [theosophical] folk can gather. In an
ideal world the idea would be meaningless as we would all
simply as human beings recognize our connectedness as members
of the human family without the need to mention it.
I too "in my own life" tend to discriminate on creed and sexual
orientation insofar as I try to choose with whom I will or will
not associate at a personal level. David Koresh never had a
look in. I do not care for Christian and Muslim fundamenalists
and seek to avoid rather than confront them. But that's just
me; the project which if we aspire to theosophical ideals is
TI seeks to go beyond personality inclinations prejudices and
conditioned reflexes.
In my twenties I lerned the basics of Astrology from a wizened
grey-bearded homeless man whose devotion to his subject made
him an expert in his field for those who could find him.
A humanitarian amimal-loving person of the highest integrity
he was an ex-Roman Catholic and a lover of truth and young men.
I shared and continue to share his love of truth of which we
are told there is no religion higher. I share his love of
animals but not young men. He is long dead but I remember him
with affection and gratitude - he taught me a lot not just astrology.
In my relationship with him I employed discrimination at the
personal level but never in respect of his membership of the
human race of which he was one of the homosexual members.
There are millions. I have little doubt that some of them are
theosophists or theosophy students.
I await the outcome of your considerations!
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 00:28:39 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Re: TI
> So initiate me into Theosophy International.
>
> Keith Price
Done.
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 00:45:55 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: TI
Update article to follow:
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises those who subscribe to the the
three objects of the TS but in a more up to date form based on
suggestions by members of the internet community and expressed
thus:
1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family without
discrimination with regard to sex including sexual
orientation creed class or color.
2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion
theosophy philosophy and the scientific method according to
individual ability and inclination.
3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and unrealized
human potential and abilities at the same time respecting _all_
life.
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is simply a Theosophical Network
whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or
allegiance to the three objects and to be registered as having
done so. No belief system is required *nor assumed to be held*
by any member.
There are no fees no subscriptions although voluntary
donations and/or contributions *could* be made to specific
projects or even individuals for particular and specified
purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not
need rules whether anyone participates in or supports any such
activity is an entirely personal matter.
We do hope to be of service and to share what we have with
others.
The following internet folk have so far signed up:
Jerry Hejka-Ekins; Richard P. Taylor; Sy Ginsburg;
Liesel F. Deutsch; Bee Brown NZ; Peter Walstra;
Murray Stentiford NZ; Alan Bain UK; Jerry Schueler;
Eldon B. Tucker; Anne Picker; John E. Mead;
John R. Crocker; K. Paul Johnson; Keith Price;
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:04:10 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Object 02
>From Alan Bain.
It cannot have escaped peoples' attention that I have been
promoting THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL with some enthusiasm .....
and so I thought it time to say a few things that seem important
about it.
The 2nd object of the Adyar TS reads: To encourage the study of
comparative religion philosophy and science.
The TI version reads: To encourage and engage in the study of
comparative religion theosophy philosophy and the scientific
method according to individual ability and inclination.
When the Adyar objects are considered there is no commitment to
study anything at all and theosophy as a subject is not even
mentioned an all too familiar peculiarity to the Adyar TS
thinking members.
TI has therefore added theosophy as a specific subject and *at
the same time* expresses a commitment actually to study the
subjects mentioned. On theos-l this is clearly already done as
the quality of the discussions shows.
One correspondent took to task the reference to "scientific
method" as distinct from "science" as such. In attempting the
initial formulation of the TI objects it seemed to me that
"science" as a subject was in this day and age too broad a
definition. The main characteristic of "science" has been so
far as I can see to approach its increasingly large number of
individual subjects or disciplines using the scientific method
of experimentation verification and testing of data.
Being in England I have had during my own studies the
privilege of access to that wondrous institution the British
Library. When I first used it it was more homely and although
already vast called simply the Reading Room of the British
Museum Library.
There I read in the original editions such arcane works as
Cornelius Agrippa's ~Three Books of Occult Philosophy~ and Dion
Fortune's ~The Goat-foot God~.
One interesting fact at that time and maybe still was that
all such material was classified under one simple heading:
OCCULT SCIENCE.
Here too one found works on theosophy of all ages both pre-
and post- HPB. Incidentally it was there that I first found a
book mentioned recently on theos-l ~The Kabbalah~ by Isaac
Meier. Sorry know nothing about him now.
Anyhow you can see why on reflection I altered the rather
vague reference to "science" to "scientific method." Why?
Because as in its own wisdom fairly old if not actually
ancient the British Museum Library implied so ingenuously
that our own favorite topics were subject to its disciplines.
On reading such books as that by Isaac Meier I can see they
were right to do so though I am not so sure about ~The
Goat-foot God~.
Theosophy proper IMHO in all its manifestations *is* a
science even though "science" - in the sense of the scientific
"establishment" - might regard it otherwise.
To follow on from there the third object really comes within
the scope of the second it seems to me. It does help however
to give it a separate mention as the third object links back to
the first like the uroboros serpent in the Theosophical logo.
The quest for truth in other words is an eternal quest. In
subscribing to TI we are articulating our part in that quest
but more importantly the fact that we have it in common; that
it's findings are for sharing - like life itself.
If I discover the truth which is the circle what do I draw?
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 03:44:38 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
At 123400 PM 12/23/95 -0500 John E Mead wrote:
>hi --
>
>I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that the intent
>of the
>changes were to directly conform with requests from the Adyar/Committee.
>
>We seem to be caught up in an arguement about the implementation vs. the
>*intent*
>of the changes.
I am very glad to see your message and it is very timely.
All of us are united in the best interests of Theosophy and
Theosophical Society. We have a situation where all our hearts are in the
right place and the motivation of everyone is correct and excellent.
One thing my experience has taught me is that *every* problem can be
solved if we only clearly see the *problem*. So I am very optimistic.
I am also reminded of the famous quote "the wise compound their
differences in a mutually forbearing spirit."
Let us all try to make the New Year a starting point for a united
and harmonious TSA.
Seasons Greeting to all.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 04:47:44 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: John Algeo
At 041800 PM 12/23/95 -0500 Chuck wrote:
>Gerda and I were at the Wheaton HQ tonight Friday for a solstice program.
> After the program was mercifully over it was awful! we ran into John
>coming out of his office. He looked terrible! I don't know if he is coming
>down with latest bug that is going around or the strain from all this by-law
>stuff is getting to him but if any of you out there have some healing energy
>to send to him please do so.
>Chuck
>
Thanks for the info. I will send him whatever healing energy I have. Should
help him. BTW on the question of the bug there are two things I have found
very helpful when any bug hits you. One is a homeopathic tablet called Alpha
CF which is manufactured in Netherlands for the famous US Company Boericke &
Tafel. This helps to cut down the intensity of the bug if taken when the
first symptom shows up. The second is the well known Apple Cider Vinegar.
When there is any bug it help to take it twice a day when down with the bug
as well as when there is no bug. The prefered vinegar is the ones made from
whole apple and fermented in wooden vats. As all of us know it is acetic
acid at 5% concentration and I usually take a teaspoon in one cup of water
and some like it with a little honey. Some of you may recall there was a
book on the apple cider vinegar by the well know theosophist Cyril Scott.
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 04:48:09 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: origin Int'l Theosophists
Alan:
>On another note would any members of TI who are *not* in the
>USA please let me know - not all e-mail addresses show the
>country of the person concerned. The *.nz members are of course
>obvious as am I with a *.uk suffix but I know that some of the
>*.com and similar addresses are not necessarily in the US these
>days even though this used to be the case. I have also
>discovered that *.net suffixes can come from almost anywhere.
My physical home is in the Netherlands in its cosmopolitan capital :-
/* Peter I. Walstra */
Private: pwalstra@pi.net
Member Theosophy International TS WTYF [...] Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 05:30:12 GMT
From: Peter Walstra
Subject: RE: Computers and Spirituality
>No doubt there will soon be on-line churches if there aren't already.
>Computers could possibly be used to cross-reference and analyze elements of
>various religious traditions and generate new one--create a new cyber-mythos?
Take a look at the 'McChurch' site at http://mcchurch.org/ !
>3. How are the on-line discussion going on the WWW?
>4. For those that are Compuserve do you want to try to meet in an open live
>conference room on the "New Age Forum" over the holidays? The are usually
>empty except at the time of a scheduled conference? I know there are about
>five of us- Ann B Jerry S. Jim M. Don De G.-- and some others? Anyone have a
>topic and a time?
>
>Namaste
>Keith Price
>
How about IRC channels? That's not restricted to Compuserve or some other
service. I've only recently tried it out so don't know much about it but
it seems you just need an IRC program like MIRC and connect to a server. Then
you pick one or more of the channels that are available; haven't seen
anything yet sounding like theosophy-related talk though.
HAPPY HOLI-DAYS TO EVERYONE!
/* Peter I. Walstra */
Member Theosophy International TS WTYF [...] Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 10:52:02 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: To Alan Regarding TI
Alan
With interest I have watched the development Theosophy International and
commend your underlying motivation and skill in getting it rolling. Were
there no Theosophical Society it is certainly the organization I would join.
The problem for me however is that there *is* a Theosophical Society and
it is the only group I have ever felt any--as Paul recently said--"karmic"
connection to. Is there any incompatibility between TI and TS? I don't
think so--perhaps the former is a good way to remind the latter what it
really *was* *is* and *should be in the future* if it expects to have much
further significance in this world. Nevertheless I suppose I have always
felt myself to be a little too much of a "company man" to join anything
besides the Theosophical Society.
On the other hand were Theosophy International audacious enough to declare
itself an unauthorized "Global Lodge *of* the Theosophical Society" . . .
Right now though I agree that there does seem to be a great deal of
desire-mental consciousness pervading the programs and procedures of the
Theosophical Society. The possible "strategizing" of the by-law adoptions
may be an example of this--using the mental nature in the service of a
desired outcome etc. The possible requirement that study centers must first
study certain things "Real Theosophy" in order to be certified may be
another example.
Nevertheless I continue to have hope for the TS--primarily I suppose
because I am convinced that only individuals in the fourth-degree of
Self-awareness and lower can be comfortable for very long when they utilize
the semi-Selves which form in desire-mental consciousness. My prediction is
that John Algeo for one despite his favoring of the changes in the by-laws
is going to throw his support on the side of a much longer period for
deliberation and discussion. I see him as someone in at least the fifth
degree of Self-awareness; thus he should be able to maintain the
"Once-Removed Vantage" vis-a-vis the desire-mental level of consciousness
and consequently be able to forego indulging himself in what would in his
better moments seem even to him like a declasse manner. If however he
allows such a semi-Self to have free egoic rein "I *really am* my cherished
idea for changing the by-laws and I *shall* prevail over individuals who
*really are* less valid ideas" then I guess we're in more trouble than I
thought.
For now nonetheless I am keeping the faith that the Theosophical Society
will soon return to being an organization simply founded upon THE THREE
OBJECTS and that private beliefs and perspectives of members will stay
private--in the sense of not superceding or "filtering" the expression of
other members' beliefs and perspectives. This is not true at the moment I
agree but both Adyar and Wheaton would have to be pretty obtuse to think
that all the malcontents of the Society *just happened* to end up on theos-l.
They must suspect that we may be at least a little bit like a representative
sample of the entire membership and that many of us are getting a little
worried that the official organization is starting to look like it is in the
process of being redesigned by and for the benefit of those who resemble
the Sadducees--i.e. the old Jewish "insider" aristocrisy often families
which passed power from one generation to the next who rejected any new
doctrines etc. coming into the Law.
For the moment Alan I will just continue to watch both the developments
within the Theosophical Society and your good efforts with Theosophy
International as well.
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
Capitalizing what they think can be articulated rather than reserving it for
what cannot.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 14:00:09 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: trust problem
>It would seem from the international by-laws that Rahda technically has the
>power to excommunicate any national section but considering the size and
>economic clout of the Amercian Section such an action on her part would seem
>to be sheer insanity.
>Chuck
>
>But it has been done to smaller sections.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 14:11:05 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
>Dear John Meade
I agree with you 100%
To reiterate
I believe with you that "misunderstanding & comminucation problems *are*
honest problems" & that they exist in this instance.
I also think that "we need more time to come to a peaceful understanding"
before there's a "stampede".
"Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged."
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
hi
--
>
>I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that the intent
>of the
>changes were to directly conform with requests from the Adyar/Committee.
>
>We seem to be caught up in an arguement about the implementation vs. the
>*intent*
>of the changes.
>
>It is clear from e-mail and also snail-mail that we have the following
>options:
>
>1 By-Laws get Ratified and several lodges file suit.
>
>2 By-Laws get rejected and we have many within the TSA who do not trust
>the TSA administration -- which is not good for anyone/organization. law-suits
>would probably follow too
>
>we need new options:
>
>1 we need to allow TSA to gracefully extend the election. This means that
they
>can extend it *without* blaim -- i.e. backing off can SEEM like a defeat and
>be embarrasing. I think that they can decide to postpone elections in a manner
>which signifies a *responsive presidency/board* decision which we should
>ACCEPT as
>an HONEST effort to allow a larger window of discussion. We need to allow
>for misunderstandings and communication problems as *honest* problems
>due to the current communication networks. NOT as personal attacks against
>certain brothers/sisters within our organization.
>
>perhaps we need 9-12 months to really get the arguements out in the open.
>
>we may find it hard to understand but I do not think they TSA had
>anticipated
>the response to this ballot. We need to set up an environment where the
>devisivness is eliminated. this is neccessary to preserve the TSA's
>integrity and restore people's faith in the elected members.
>
>2 I have received a letter from Dr. Algeo where the intent of the new By-Laws
>were *requested* by International Adyar. However the wording and
>implementation
>were to be determined by the TSA. Hence --- we have an instance where the
>guidelines
>were set but the specific implementation needs to have an open discussion
esp.
>between TSA Chapters/Lodges.
>
>Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged.
>
>peace --
>
>john mead
>jem@vnet.net
>
>p.s. send National TSA ideas on how to regain membership confidence
>especially regarding these new by-law changes.
>
>p.p.s. this letter is my own idea. I am also sending it to
>Theos@netcom and Dr. Algeo.
>
>quote: it is easier to mend fences *before* the cattle stampedes through them.
>I think we agree on this.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 14:55:41 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Anonymity & other issues
This is from Liesel
I still can't get into my "New Message" capacity. Guess not till Dreamscape
opens up again on morning. From time to time I'm still reading
"Talks on The Path of Occultism" & this AM I came across something which
perhaps applies to us just now. It's several paragraphs but I thought it
worth being put onto
Theos-l.
p.343 ff.
"The great object of the TS is not so much to provide the mental
development as to raise those who are ready into responsiveness to buddhic
influences to rewaken the sensitiveness of its people on a higher turn of
the spiral and prepare them for the new race. It does not deprecate mental
development - far from it - but it prepares for the next stage when
intuitional love will produce harmony and brotherhood & will employ the
developed intellect to build a new civilization based on those ideals. Our
Society being in close sympathy with the higher planes is very sensitive
to the forces liberated when another "Son of Man" comes to birth. It
receives the first touch of the great outrush and this gives it new
impetus; its work increases and spreads and there is an advance in members
and in brotherly feelings.
"Sometimes however this stimulation of life produces friction due to a
loss of the sense of proportion. Some great idea arises in the mind of some
member; the inrush of force intensifies it & that is very good if he is a
well-balanced man and can pursue his own ideas without deprecating those of
other people. But where there is unbalance & narrowness differences of
opinion may be made stronger. We have our special lines of work in
Theosophy. Some take up 01 form of activity & some another but danger arises
when a man begins to think that his line is the one which the whole Society
ought to take up & emphasize. When other people try to follow out their
ideas he tends to think that they are not doing the best for the Society
because they do not come & help him. It is not unnatural that enthusiasm
should sometimes cause friction in such cases when brotherly love & real
tolerance fall a little behind.....
"It is nearly always wise to let people try their ideas but always sad when
they urge them too strongly upon others. Experience tells us ever more and
more THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE SOCIETY IS HARMONY AMONG THE
WORKERS. INDEED IT MAY BE SAID THAT HARMONY AMONG THE WORKERS IS MORE
IMPORTANT THAN SUCCESS IN ANY ONE PIECE OF WORK. So let each man follow the
best inspiration that comes to him but let him have the fullest sympathy
for others also in their individual ideas. If without peril to the spirit of
harmony which makes the Society a perfect channel for higher forces an open
door to the Great ones we can engage in vigorous activity it is well
indeed but not otherwise."
CWL
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
>>It would be nice if we could help fashion a TS in the spirit the Masters
>>intended. Unfortunately we seem to be such an independent lot that we need
>>to quibble all the time about who's righter. It would be great I think if
>>to our independent thinking we could add a few smidgens of tolerance.
>
>This correlates to something I was just reading about - the need for diversity.
>"Have you ever realized that a group composed entirely of people upon the same
>ray and who were also at exactly the same point of evolution would be
>relatively futile and useless? Such a group would lack dynamic-the dynamic
>which comes into expression when many different ray qualities meet and combine"
>Discipleship in the New Age Vol. II p. 107
>
>Maybe that's what makes this mailing list much more interesting. The
contrasts
>the clashes the fights and the making up. Sounds like a pretty good
storyline.
>
>Ann E. Bermingham
>
>PS When my spelling checker hits your name Liesel it wants to change it to
>Diesel.
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 15:05:40 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: John Algeo
>Gerda and I were at the Wheaton HQ tonight Friday for a solstice program.
> After the program was mercifully over it was awful! we ran into John
>coming out of his office. He looked terrible! I don't know if he is coming
>down with latest bug that is going around or the strain from all this by-law
>stuff is getting to him but if any of you out there have some healing energy
>to send to him please do so.
>Chuck
>
>Dear John
Here is another thoughtformful of liberated Munchkins to help you on your way.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 24 Dec 1996 15:32:49 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: trust problem
>>It would seem from the international by-laws that Rahda technically has the
>>power to excommunicate any national section but considering the size and
>>economic clout of the Amercian Section such an action on her part would seem
>>to be sheer insanity.
>>Chuck
PS. It just occurred to me that I think we would do well to meditate for
Radha as well. LFD
>
>>But it has been done to smaller sections.
>
>Liesel
>Member Theosophy International
>Member Human Race
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 06:44:09 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision
Keith:
The ball is in the court of National Board. I am waiting to see any further
developments in the matter. Let us all keep tuned.
MK Ramadoss
At 011800 PM 12/25/95 -0500 Keith wrote:
>It seems like the only sensible thing to do at this point is to postpone the
>voting on the by-laws. If headquaters can let the by-laws material get "lost"
>at the printers or whatever they can postpone the elections till the
matter has
>been discussed OPENLY. If not they will at this point lose crediblity with
>the members. They can't take another scandal as what has surrounded Bing
>Escudero.
>
>Keith Price
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 08:02:27 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Solar Cult Suicides
It seems it was an auspicious solstice with more negative elements than
positive so far. I don't have the news article but a front page story
mentioned that another branch know as the Solar Cult had a mass sucide in the
early morning of the 22nd. The story said that it may have been linked to the
time of the solstice. A note they left said they wanted to "see other worlds".
Another branch of this group committed mass sucide last year. They were linked
in the press to theosophy indirectly.Does anyone have more on this?
Chuck mentioned that he went to a solsctice celebration at headquaters and "it
was awful" and that John Algeo looked stressed and possibly a little ill.
I don't want to over-dramatize but I wrote my post about my solstice
meditation before I heard about the solar cult suicides. I may have
unconsciously linked with the negative group meditations that go on at this time
and I was also physically tired but this is the whole problem of the energies
at this time of year anyway.
I think we can learn yet another sad lesson from these suicides that a healthy
skepticsm and humor can protect one from the despair that sets in win one
doesn't see the world individuals or organizations like TSA transform to meet
our spiritual expectations. We are obviously on a long path of evolution.
It is sad to think that seemingly negative energies may be part of the
spiritual plan:
Alan writes concerning the path of Capricorn in the kabala:
"PATH TWENTY-SIX
"The Renewing Intelligence. Thereby God reneweth all which is
capable of renovation in the creation of the world."
Sepher Yetzirah: The letter Ayin. Laughter. The zodiacal sign
Capricorn.
The Minor Sephiroth: 'Hesed in Assiah.
The Christian Church: The Book of Epistles.
The Greater Tarot: Card fifteen the "Devil."
Commentary: "Thereby God reneweth all which is capable of renova-
tion in the creation of the world."
Keith:
For all that ignored the solstice it may have been just as well.
One more question: Was it good for you Alan?
Namaste
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 08:15:24 GMT
From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com>
Subject: Postpone By-Laws Decision
It seems like the only sensible thing to do at this point is to postpone the
voting on the by-laws. If headquaters can let the by-laws material get "lost"
at the printers or whatever they can postpone the elections till the matter has
been discussed OPENLY. If not they will at this point lose crediblity with
the members. They can't take another scandal as what has surrounded Bing
Escudero.
Keith Price
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 11:18:26 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision
At 050800 PM 12/25/95 -0500 Liesel wrote:
>>It seems like the only sensible thing to do at this point is to postpone the
>>voting on the by-laws. If headquaters can let the by-laws material get "lost"
>>at the printers or whatever they can postpone the elections till the
>matter has
>>been discussed OPENLY. If not they will at this point lose crediblity with
>>the members. They can't take another scandal as what has surrounded Bing
>>Escudero.
>>
>>Keith Price
>>
>>Keith After Gerda Thompson suggested postponing the voting I asked John
>Algeo whether this could be done. He said the Board would have to do it.
>I had contacted John because I'm of the opinion that we can't take another
>rift. We're still only partly recovered from the one which occurred around
>Bing Escudero.
>I myself would just as soon not take part in these revisions discussions at
>all. I've had enough standing up for causes in the past & am entitled I
>think to some peace in my retirment. I've tried to come in here & there
>anyway because the whole thing worries me greatly. After having healed
>partly from the former rift here we go again & I see the whole TS becoming
>even more ineffective. Since my whole lifestyle is firmly rooted in
>Theosophy and since I think we have something really worthwhile to offer to
>others I hate to watch the Society the vehicle of Theosophy go down the
>tubes. I think it's heading that way but I really don't know how one could
>stop it since it involves more than our Board & our President it involves
>Adyar.
>
>Liesel
Liesel:
1. Please do not give up. We need take active interest in an organization
from which and from whose philosophy we all have benefitted and thru us
others may have benfitted. We are dealing with the long term future of TS
and all of us are motivated by the same objectives and goals and we have to
speak up when we see there is a need to speak up. Not speaking up means we
are missing an opportunity. It is the collective inputs that help the TS
continue to be strong and useful to the Humanity.
2. If you have carefully noticed I have copied my postings that I feel are
very important to our International President National President and the
National Board. I am confident that as International and National get the
feedback as to some of our thinking and opinions they will be in a better
position to address the important issues that need to be addressed. The
views on issues from members in the field is very important as it gives a
better picture of the issues as viewed from the field.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 11:44:47 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: trust problem - being of service
To: Olcott Library
Dear Elisabeth
Iwasn't going to respond about this matter of library service but I've
changed my mind.
I really wonder whether my memory is playing computer tricks on me.
I remember very clearly your telling me several times not to send you any
more business but I don't recall anything about having new people contact
you directly ... only about not contacting you at all in this country or out.
For 23 years of my life I worked professionally with public including
drug addicts & bank presidents... longer on a volunteer basis. In all that
time I never pushed away anyone who sincerely sought my services. I tried to
take care of them no matter how busy I was no matter how much I had to go
out of my way. If they needed something I tried to get it for them or else
tried to see that someone else did. To me that's what "being of service"
means. Your conception seems to vary somewhat from mine & I guess I'm just
too dense to understand your style of service.
Liesel
>>It would seem from the international by-laws that Rahda technically has the
>>>power to excommunicate any national section but considering the size and
>>>economic clout of the Amercian Section such an action on her part would seem
>>>to be sheer insanity.
>>>Chuck
>
>PS. It just occurred to me that I think we would do well to meditate for
>Radha as well. LFD
>
>>
>>>But it has been done to smaller sections.
>>
>
>>Liesel
>>Member Theosophy International
>>Member Human Race
>>
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 12:05:04 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision
>It seems like the only sensible thing to do at this point is to postpone the
>voting on the by-laws. If headquaters can let the by-laws material get "lost"
>at the printers or whatever they can postpone the elections till the
matter has
>been discussed OPENLY. If not they will at this point lose crediblity with
>the members. They can't take another scandal as what has surrounded Bing
>Escudero.
>
>Keith Price
>
>Keith After Gerda Thompson suggested postponing the voting I asked John
Algeo whether this could be done. He said the Board would have to do it.
I had contacted John because I'm of the opinion that we can't take another
rift. We're still only partly recovered from the one which occurred around
Bing Escudero.
I myself would just as soon not take part in these revisions discussions at
all. I've had enough standing up for causes in the past & am entitled I
think to some peace in my retirment. I've tried to come in here & there
anyway because the whole thing worries me greatly. After having healed
partly from the former rift here we go again & I see the whole TS becoming
even more ineffective. Since my whole lifestyle is firmly rooted in
Theosophy and since I think we have something really worthwhile to offer to
others I hate to watch the Society the vehicle of Theosophy go down the
tubes. I think it's heading that way but I really don't know how one could
stop it since it involves more than our Board & our President it involves
Adyar.
Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 22:01:52 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Regarding TI
At 115200 PM 12/25/95 -0500 Alan wrote:
>>Thanks for the kind words. My motivation is based upon what I
>see as the serious possiblity that given its current course and
>policyies the Theosophical Society will simply wither away
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>partly from the very *untheosophical* power struggles that go on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>England's history is not so very different from America's in
>terms of the basics. I began promoting TI because of clues I
>had picked up from theos-l - for which we should all be thankful
>and greatly indebted.
>
I have been following *very closely* what is going on relative to
TSA's Bylaws. As far as I know I *do not* see any power struggle.
Most of the discussion you have seen are coming out of the
implementation of policies originating from excellent motivation in the
protecting the long term interests of TSA. Just the fact that there is much
discussion here itself is very healthy gives strength to TSA and when
ultimately the policies are properly implemented they will only strengthen
TSA. No other organization would have tolerated the kind of discussions we
have had here.
No matter what is discussed here TS it is *not* going to wither
away because at the lodge/branch/study center level the activities are
going to go on. The strength and vitality and usefulness of each
lodge/branch/study center and any organization depends on the dedication and
sacrifices of a *few individuals*. We do have such individuals at each
lodge/branch/study center. It is each individual member who spread Theosophy
and help the other individuals members or not with whom they come into
contact.
Just thought I should share my views with everyone.
MK Ramadoss
Scribed at 4.00am cdt 12/26/95
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 22:25:26 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Object 02
At 085700 PM 12/23/95 -0500 Alan wrote:
>
>When the Adyar objects are considered there is no commitment to
>study anything at all and theosophy as a subject is not even
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>mentioned an all too familiar peculiarity to the Adyar TS
^^^^^^^^^
>thinking members.
>
It is one of the very important facts that I point out to new and
prospective members that it is *the only* organization where its main
subject is not *defined*. The motto of TS is "There is no Religion Higher
Than Truth". As all of us are just students of Truth Divine Wisdom -
Theo-Sophia cannot IMHO be static and be *defined*. The fact that TS has
lived for 120 years is a standing evidence of the soundness of this decision
of the Founders.
IMHO that is why when there is some talk about the what lodges and
study centers should *study* I felt that there could not and should not be
any specific set of books as the specific line of work of each lodge/study
center/ is different from any other.
Long time ago I was a associated with an extremely active lodge
which is as active today which had close to 300 members not counting
their family members who participated in the programs. For example in
spite of the varied kinds of programs there was *not* a single lecture or
study class on "Secret Doctrine" during the thirteen years I attended the
lodge programs. So each lodge has to tailor its activities to the line of
work its members want to commit themselves.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 22:55:48 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Solstice
>
> Keith:
>
> For all that ignored the solstice it may have been just as well.
>
> One more question: Was it good for you Alan?
>
> Namaste
> Keith Price
It was very quiet very still. If anything I suspect a period
of reflection and pause for thought in matters esoteric and/or
theosophical. In my understanding of esoteric astrology
Capricorn represents the gate of death of transition from this
world to another be it astral mental causal or whatever;
probably varies according to the individual. And of course
the same journey can be taken while still in this temporal life.
With the presence of both Uranus and Neptune in the latter end
of Capricorn I wonder what will happen this coming year when
the sun reaches their conjunction. Uranus will get to Aquarius
first of the two - POW!!
Thought: Namaste is an anagram of NAME TSA .....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 25 Dec 1996 23:08:26 GMT
From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Dr. A.M.Bain
Subject: Regarding TI
> Alan
>
> With interest I have watched the development Theosophy International and
> commend your underlying motivation and skill in getting it rolling. Were
> there no Theosophical Society it is certainly the organization I would join.
Richard
Thanks for the kind words. My motivation is based upon what I
see as the serious possiblity that given its current course and
policyies the Theosophical Society will simply wither away
partly from the very *untheosophical* power struggles that go on
England's history is not so very different from America's in
terms of the basics. I began promoting TI because of clues I
had picked up from theos-l - for which we should all be thankful
and greatly indebted.
> The problem for me however is that there *is* a Theosophical Society and
> it is the only group I have ever felt any--as Paul recently said--"karmic"
> connection to. Is there any incompatibility between TI and TS? I don't
> think so--perhaps the former is a good way to remind the latter what it
> really *was* *is* and *should be in the future* if it expects to have much
> further significance in this world. Nevertheless I suppose I have always
> felt myself to be a little too much of a "company man" to join anything
> besides the Theosophical Society.
Yes there *is* a Theosophical Society. I am a member of it
and a past president and past vice-president of my own Lodge upon
whose committee I still serve. So in promoting TI I see myself
as promoting something that exists *within* theosophy *within*
the TS for those who are members and not something outside
theosophy or instead of any theosophical setup currently in
existence.
> On the other hand were Theosophy International audacious enough to declare
> itself an unauthorized "Global Lodge *of* the Theosophical Society" . . .
I don't quite see how this could be - I do not know if all TI
members are TS Adyar members though one or two belong to at
least three TS organizations at the same time.
> Right now though I agree that there does seem to be a great deal of
> desire-mental consciousness pervading the programs and procedures of the
> Theosophical Society. The possible "strategizing" of the by-law adoptions
> may be an example of this--using the mental nature in the service of a
> desired outcome etc. The possible requirement that study centers must first
> study certain things "Real Theosophy" in order to be certified may be
> another example.
Well now to me TI is a way of "using" if you like "the
mental nature in the service of a desired outcome." The
difference is that the desired outcome is a coming together to
*voluntarily* serve and promote the three objects in a more up
to date manner which reflects the society we actually live in;
which while respecting the values and ideals of the founders
recognizes that humanity has moved on and is in fact not a
little richer for the advent of the theosophical movement begun
by HPB and company in 1975 and whose work may have influenced
the world more than many of imagine.
The development of knowledge and the understanding of truth - of
which there is no higher religion - has progressed considerably
since 1875 or even 1926 when my own Lodge was opened by Annie
Besant around the time of the summer solstice.
Theosophy - in the Adyar TS or anywhere else - needs I formly
believe not only to regognize this but also to express it and
adapt to it. I am regarded by some as something of a "feminist"
in that I see the role of women in theosophical service as
crucial to the future of the kind of theosophy we both value.
But that's how the whole thing *started out* and was continued
especially in the early decades. How many of the following were
men:
HPB Annie Besant Anna Kingsford Katherine Ting...y sp? Alice
Bailey? My own Lodge was founded and held together in its
formative years almost entirely by active women.
So you can see why I favor the inclusive language approach of
TI? How many *young* women of today want to members of a
"brotherhood" - something associated with peculiar masonic
all-male rituals which in this country are the regular stuff of
TV humor. Sure one or two wonlt be too bothered but my guess
is that *most* won't even look any further past this word when
they are shown the objects as they now stand. In fact one
woman joined our Lodge and resigned when she got the usual
handout pack for new members *because she resented being
described as a "fellow" and a "brother." "I am a woman!" she
said and sent the lot back. A mere youngster of 52 .......
> Nevertheless I continue to have hope for the TS--primarily I suppose
The declining membership figures here as in the US do not
alas support this hope.
> For now nonetheless I am keeping the faith that the Theosophical Society
> will soon return to being an organization simply founded upon THE THREE
> OBJECTS and that private beliefs and perspectives of members will stay
> private--in the sense of not superceding or "filtering" the expression of
> other members' beliefs and perspectives.
Which is exactly what TI seeks to promote both within the Adyar
TS and *anywhere else* where people truly care about
theosophical principles and ideas. PLUS - it's free has no
by-laws no laws! and to date although miniscule represented
in three countries!
> For the moment Alan I will just continue to watch both the developments
> within the Theosophical Society and your good efforts with Theosophy
> International as well.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Richard Ihle
At my end Theosophy International *is* a development within the
Theosophical Society! It can also be and is for some See the
current issue of ~Ergates~ a development beyond it as well.
Why not come on in? Help to change things simply by asserting
your right to be Richard Ihle Theosophist.
Happy New year New Age New Ideas
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 01:00:13 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Regarding TI
On 26 199512 MK Ramadoss wrote:
>
> I have been following *very closely* what is going on relative to
> TSA's Bylaws. As far as I know I *do not* see any power struggle.
Save to the extent that HQ is struggling with its membership. I
think there is a power struggle between two different *ideas* of what
Theosophy is and between two different ideas of how hierarchically power
ought to be distributed between the national and Lodge levels.
> Most of the discussion you have seen are coming out of the
> implementation of policies originating from excellent motivation in the
> protecting the long term interests of TSA. Just the fact that there is much
> discussion here itself is very healthy gives strength to TSA and when
> ultimately the policies are properly implemented they will only strengthen
> TSA. No other organization would have tolerated the kind of discussions we
> have had here.
Sadly the TSA really did *not* tolerate these discussions ... it
could not stop them. It made no effort to permit or encourage similar
discussions in for instance the AT. In fact seems to have gone out of
its way to sharply limit the time and information available for discussion.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 06:13:20 GMT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision
Unfortunately the election material was mailed some time ago so now the
board is stuck with a real mess and no good way out of it. Let us hope that
they learn from this debacle.
Chuck
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 07:35:59 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision
At 111400 AM 12/26/95 -0500 you wrote:
>Unfortunately the election material was mailed some time ago so now the
>board is stuck with a real mess and no good way out of it. Let us hope that
>they learn from this debacle.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Chuck
>
I hope so!!!
..doss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:16:46 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Blame Ann for Asking Copy
AEB
In reading your excellent post I encountered your terms of level of
consciousness. I come to theos-l with terminology from over 20 years of
reading
Bailey so that is what I am familiar with. Could you explain or direct me
to
the source of your terms such as fourth and fifth-level consciousness?
RI
Thank you for all *your* excellent posts.
I have tried to simplify my terminology over the last couple decades and am
now down to *degree* of Self-awareness and *level* of consciousness.
While I can be tedious at the slightest provocation on the subject of
*psychogenesis* the important part I suppose is the realization that
individuals can be "ranked" according to the point at which their sense of
Self "Undifferentiated Consciousness" is no longer able to its unable to
"hold Its ground" along the "continuum" of psychological conditions which
result from interactions with a person's energy-physical emotional mental
and Spiritual nature thus giving rise to all the varieties of
"differentiated consciousness".
Perhaps the first hurdle to get over in all this is to realize that
*everything* we experience has an "egoic" component as a result of the
involvement with partial transformation of the Self the primordial sense
of *I am*. Thus when we have a toothache there is little way to escape
the psychogenetic state of *I AM the pain in my molar*. If our attention
shifts to a different tooth the previous ego-formation dissolves and then we
are "I AM the pain in my incisor."
I call such egoic-formations "semi-Selves." Fortunately semi-Selves forming
one at a time please at this "physical level of consciousness" are so
gross that--unless the pain or sensation is *really* intense-- there is
usually some "remainder" of untransformed Self present to keep a
"Once-Removed Vantage" on the psychological condition. The person is seldom
completely deluded that he or she *really is* a physical semi-Self o.k.
o.k. maybe if the taste of the pecan pie is amazingly good . . ..
Things get a little more problematic when semi-Selves form at higher levels
of consciousness. Keeping the Once-Removed Vantage is dependent upon how
much Self-awareness the person has developed often by means of meditative
practice.
Theosophical writers have tried to indicate the levels of consciousness in a
variety of ways--number of divisions qualities etc.--so many in fact that
an individual has little choice but to repeatedly watch the inner progression
for himself or herself during meditation. I have settled on these seven for
myself: *pranic physical desire-feeling desire-mental mental
Spirit-mental and Spirit*. Theosophical scribes and pharisees will try to
tell you that you are wrong because so-and-so says such-and-such; however
this is a situation where you must stick to what you experience in
meditation. Your purpose is not to come up with the last word on this
subject only to get enough personal experience with the levels of
differentiated consciousness so that you can USE them in Adept fashion.
However you cannot use in a mistake-free manner the ones which entirely
gobble you up egoically. When I say that someone is in the "fifth degree"
all I mean is that he or she is able to experience "fourth-level"
desire-mental consciousness without losing the Once-Removed Vantage. When
I say "sixth degree" I mean someone who does not turn egoically kamikaze
when utilizing a semi-Self forming at the "fifth level" of consciousness
desire-free mentation.
All in all I suppose this terminology is just an attempt to take the
time-honored concept of *older and younger souls* not to mention *Rounds
Root Races Sub-Races* etc. out of the context of anthropogenesis and see
what it might mean in the context of psychogenesis. The power associated
with this possibly newly unfolding component of theosophy is spectacular
Ann. With a little practice one can not only begin to look at oneself in a
far more expert way but often many of the more common mysteries regarding
why other people behave as then do etc. simply seem to fall away as well.
And the coolest thing about it Ann is that so many people are so well along
the way with this personal theosophical development--without having needed
any special terminology at all!
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:20:36 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision
>At 050800 PM 12/25/95 -0500 Liesel Keith wrote:
>>>It seems like the only sensible thing to do at this point is to postpone the
>>>voting on the by-laws. If headquaters can let the by-laws material get
"lost"
>>>at the printers or whatever they can postpone the elections till the
>>matter has
>>>been discussed OPENLY. If not they will at this point lose crediblity with
>>>the members. They can't take another scandal as what has surrounded Bing
>>>Escudero.
>>>
>>>Keith Price
>>>
>>>Keith After Gerda Thompson suggested postponing the voting I asked John
>>Algeo whether this could be done. He said the Board would have to do it.
>>I had contacted John because I'm of the opinion that we can't take another
>>rift. We're still only partly recovered from the one which occurred around
>>Bing Escudero.
>>I myself would just as soon not take part in these revisions discussions at
>>all. I've had enough standing up for causes in the past & am entitled I
>>think to some peace in my retirment. I've tried to come in here & there
>>anyway because the whole thing worries me greatly. After having healed
>>partly from the former rift here we go again & I see the whole TS becoming
>>even more ineffective. Since my whole lifestyle is firmly rooted in
>>Theosophy and since I think we have something really worthwhile to offer to
>>others I hate to watch the Society the vehicle of Theosophy go down the
>>tubes. I think it's heading that way but I really don't know how one could
>>stop it since it involves more than our Board & our President it involves
>>Adyar.
>>
>>Liesel
>
>Liesel:
>
>1. Please do not give up. We need take active interest in an organization
>from which and from whose philosophy we all have benefitted and thru us
>others may have benfitted. We are dealing with the long term future of TS
>and all of us are motivated by the same objectives and goals and we have to
>speak up when we see there is a need to speak up. Not speaking up means we
>are missing an opportunity. It is the collective inputs that help the TS
>continue to be strong and useful to the Humanity.
>
>2. If you have carefully noticed I have copied my postings that I feel are
>very important to our International President National President and the
>National Board. I am confident that as International and National get the
>feedback as to some of our thinking and opinions they will be in a better
>position to address the important issues that need to be addressed. The
>views on issues from members in the field is very important as it gives a
>better picture of the issues as viewed from the field.
>
>MK Ramadoss
>
>Doss I guess I'm not really giving up but my input is rather tired & 1/2
hearted. I realize that this revisions question is very important but I'd
rather be doing something else.
Liesel
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:30:13 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Object 02
At 040800 PM 12/26/95 -0500 Liesel wrote:
>>At 085700 PM 12/23/95 -0500 Alan wrote:
>>>
>>>When the Adyar objects are considered there is no commitment to
>>>study anything at all and theosophy as a subject is not even
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>mentioned an all too familiar peculiarity to the Adyar TS
>> ^^^^^^^^^
>>>thinking members.
>>>
>>
>> It is one of the very important facts that I point out to new and
>>prospective members that it is *the only* organization where its main
>>subject is not *defined*. The motto of TS is "There is no Religion Higher
>>Than Truth". As all of us are just students of Truth Divine Wisdom -
>>Theo-Sophia cannot IMHO be static and be *defined*. The fact that TS has
>>lived for 120 years is a standing evidence of the soundness of this decision
>>of the Founders.
>>
>> IMHO that is why when there is some talk about the what lodges and
>>study centers should *study* I felt that there could not and should not be
>>any specific set of books as the specific line of work of each lodge/study
>>center/ is different from any other.
>>
>> Long time ago I was a associated with an extremely active lodge
>>which is as active today which had close to 300 members not counting
>>their family members who participated in the programs. For example in
>>spite of the varied kinds of programs there was *not* a single lecture or
>>study class on "Secret Doctrine" during the thirteen years I attended the
>>lodge programs. So each lodge has to tailor its activities to the line of
>>work its members want to commit themselves.
>>
>>MK Ramadoss
>>
>>Doss
>
>I don't quite agree with you on that one. The pattern you describe was
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No problem. By the same token I think a Lodge should not be forced
to adopt a particular program "approved" by the National Hq or anyone else.
>followed by the small branch I was President of in NJ. We went along for
>many years with a very varied Theosophical program until one fine day we
>decided that we should really study Basic Theosophy because none of us were
>sure of what it really was. I think it's a good idea to at least briefly
>study the basics of Theosophy & then branch out from there. The trouble is
>no one has as yet written a decent brief Basic Theosophy course. The only
>one by Imogene Simons is hopelessly dated. I haven't looked at Doss
>McDavid's but the blurp on that one says that it's for more advanced
>students. Also I imagine it's too long. My idea is to have something that
>touches briefly on the main Theosophical concepts & then let the group go
>on from there to wherever they wish to go. I think to tie up a group for
>several months by only giving them Basic Theosophy would be deadly. I know
>that the group I'm trying to keep alive just now the Onondaga Provisional
>Study Center isn't too interested in Basic Theosophy. They're interested in
>New Age & esoteric things. They enjoy being members because they get "the
>Quest". But other than that Theosophy doesn't mean too much to them yet &
Each Lodge is unique due to the unique composition of its members.
So it is the active members of the lodge who are in the best position to
figure out with full communication with its members what is best suited to
its needs. This approach will foster harmony and unity of its members and
will in due course strengthen the lodge. This is what I feel.
>I think meetings filled with nothing but Basic Theosophy would be the end.
>We're struggling now without that because I'm insisting that I can't be the
>whole program. They loved it when I ran the show & they came &
>participated but I'm having problems with getting one of them to run the
>show. If I now come preaching Theosophy I'd make it brief & in a style
>that won't bore them to death.
>>
>>Liesel
Do not worry about the length of the msg. When you have to discuss
important issues sometimes it is difficult to be very brief. Sometimes the
brevity itself will lead to not being fully or correctly understood by others.
MK Ramadoss
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:46:52 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Regarding TI
>> Alan
>> Re: brotherhood in our 1st object. Alan I sure appreciate your
supportive stand on this matter.
We never mentioned this in our discussions about the revisions but I voted
"niet" on that first revision because they left in the word "brotherhood".
I'm older than 52 by far & I resent being told I'm part of a brotherhood.
Anyone who looks at me even physically can tell for sure from certain
very evident signs that no way am I a "brother" no way can I be accepted
into a brotherhood. Psychologically I'm not a brother either & that
becomes evident too when you get to talking to me. I know that the younger
generation is more adamant than I in resenting this. My niece who's in her
30ies rapped a guy over the knuckles for calling her "honey" all the time.
Even that's demeaning let alone having to simulate that you're of the sex
you're not of.
I was wondering about the status of the TI. Are we a loose worldwide
association
of Theosophists. Alan are you planning to affiliate us with something some
time in the future? That isn't very clear. It's ok with me if we just want
to stay as is. Maybe we can steer clear of all this politicking nonesense.
Liesel
Member Theosophy International
Member Human Race
>> With interest I have watched the development Theosophy International and
>> commend your underlying motivation and skill in getting it rolling. Were
>> there no Theosophical Society it is certainly the organization I would join.
>
>Richard
>
>Thanks for the kind words. My motivation is based upon what I
>see as the serious possiblity that given its current course and
>policyies the Theosophical Society will simply wither away
>partly from the very *untheosophical* power struggles that go on
>England's history is not so very different from America's in
>terms of the basics. I began promoting TI because of clues I
>had picked up from theos-l - for which we should all be thankful
>and greatly indebted.
>
>> The problem for me however is that there *is* a Theosophical Society and
>> it is the only group I have ever felt any--as Paul recently said--"karmic"
>> connection to. Is there any incompatibility between TI and TS? I don't
>> think so--perhaps the former is a good way to remind the latter what it
>> really *was* *is* and *should be in the future* if it expects to have much
>> further significance in this world. Nevertheless I suppose I have always
>> felt myself to be a little too much of a "company man" to join anything
>> besides the Theosophical Society.
>
>Yes there *is* a Theosophical Society. I am a member of it
>and a past president and past vice-president of my own Lodge upon
>whose committee I still serve. So in promoting TI I see myself
>as promoting something that exists *within* theosophy *within*
>the TS for those who are members and not something outside
>theosophy or instead of any theosophical setup currently in
>existence.
>
>> On the other hand were Theosophy International audacious enough to declare
>> itself an unauthorized "Global Lodge *of* the Theosophical Society" . . .
>
>I don't quite see how this could be - I do not know if all TI
>members are TS Adyar members though one or two belong to at
>least three TS organizations at the same time.
>
>> Right now though I agree that there does seem to be a great deal of
>> desire-mental consciousness pervading the programs and procedures of the
>> Theosophical Society. The possible "strategizing" of the by-law adoptions
>> may be an example of this--using the mental nature in the service of a
>> desired outcome etc. The possible requirement that study centers must first
>> study certain things "Real Theosophy" in order to be certified may be
>> another example.
>
>Well now to me TI is a way of "using" if you like "the
>mental nature in the service of a desired outcome." The
>difference is that the desired outcome is a coming together to
>*voluntarily* serve and promote the three objects in a more up
>to date manner which reflects the society we actually live in;
>which while respecting the values and ideals of the founders
>recognizes that humanity has moved on and is in fact not a
>little richer for the advent of the theosophical movement begun
>by HPB and company in 1975 and whose work may have influenced
>the world more than many of imagine.
>
>The development of knowledge and the understanding of truth - of
>which there is no higher religion - has progressed considerably
>since 1875 or even 1926 when my own Lodge was opened by Annie
>Besant around the time of the summer solstice.
>
>Theosophy - in the Adyar TS or anywhere else - needs I formly
>believe not only to regognize this but also to express it and
>adapt to it. I am regarded by some as something of a "feminist"
>in that I see the role of women in theosophical service as
>crucial to the future of the kind of theosophy we both value.
>But that's how the whole thing *started out* and was continued
>especially in the early decades. How many of the following were
>men:
>
>HPB Annie Besant Anna Kingsford Katherine Ting...y sp? Alice
>Bailey? My own Lodge was founded and held together in its
>formative years almost entirely by active women.
>
>So you can see why I favor the inclusive language approach of
>TI? How many *young* women of today want to members of a
>"brotherhood" - something associated with peculiar masonic
>all-male rituals which in this country are the regular stuff of
>TV humor. Sure one or two wonlt be too bothered but my guess
>is that *most* won't even look any further past this word when
>they are shown the objects as they now stand. In fact one
>woman joined our Lodge and resigned when she got the usual
>handout pack for new members *because she resented being
>described as a "fellow" and a "brother." "I am a woman!" she
>said and sent the lot back. A mere youngster of 52 .......
>
>> Nevertheless I continue to have hope for the TS--primarily I suppose
>
>The declining membership figures here as in the US do not
>alas support this hope.
>
>> For now nonetheless I am keeping the faith that the Theosophical Society
>> will soon return to being an organization simply founded upon THE THREE
>> OBJECTS and that private beliefs and perspectives of members will stay
>> private--in the sense of not superceding or "filtering" the expression of
>> other members' beliefs and perspectives.
>
>Which is exactly what TI seeks to promote both within the Adyar
>TS and *anywhere else* where people truly care about
>theosophical principles and ideas. PLUS - it's free has no
>by-laws no laws! and to date although miniscule represented
>in three countries!
>
>
>
>> For the moment Alan I will just continue to watch both the developments
>> within the Theosophical Society and your good efforts with Theosophy
>> International as well.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Richard Ihle
>
>At my end Theosophy International *is* a development within the
>Theosophical Society! It can also be and is for some See the
>current issue of ~Ergates~ a development beyond it as well.
>
>Why not come on in? Help to change things simply by asserting
>your right to be Richard Ihle Theosophist.
>
>Happy New year New Age New Ideas
>
>Alan
>--
>Member Theosophy International.
>Member Human Race.
>----------------------------------------
>Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:48:52 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: Postpone By-Laws Decision/Divine Intervention
At 032300 PM 12/26/95 -0500 you wrote:
>>At 050800 PM 12/25/95 -0500 Liesel Keith wrote:
>>>>It seems like the only sensible thing to do at this point is to
postpone the
>>>>voting on the by-laws. If headquaters can let the by-laws material get
>"lost"
>>>>at the printers or whatever they can postpone the elections till the
>>>matter has
>>>>been discussed OPENLY. If not they will at this point lose crediblity
with
>>>>the members. They can't take another scandal as what has surrounded Bing
>>>>Escudero.
>>>>
>>>>Keith Price
<<>>
============================================================================
=========
The fact that the bylaws materials "lost" at printers brings back to
my mind a very significant event that I was told happened several years ago
in the election of the President.
The election was a close one. There were two candidates who ran for
the position. Each section is supposed to tally the votes and send a cable
to the Headquarters notifying the voting results. There was a deadline by
which these cables are to be received. It so happened that the results from
one section was delayed by about two weeks after the deadline. This delay
tilted the ballots in favor of the winner.
Later investigation revealed that the cable was indeed handed over
to the cable/telegraph office on time with enough time to reach the
Headquarters. Some one in the cable/telegraph office mislaid the cable and
it was two weeks later it was discovered that the cable was not sent. I
believe that the cable delay was not accidental. It was more providential.
In analogy to this situation I think it is equally providential
that the printers "lost" the bylaws material and thus mailing was delayed
and thus resulting violation of the deadlines required to be followed and
thus leading to the referendum being legally void. If the bylaws were passed
as proposed it would have been a disaster for TSA.
Some of the Guardians of TS may have had hand in preventing this by
the "accidental" "loss" of the by-laws material at the printers. It would be
well to heed to such hints and make the best use of such omens.
Let us all wait to see what decision comes out of the National Board.
MK Ramadoss
============================================================================
============
>
>>>>Keith After Gerda Thompson suggested postponing the voting I asked John
>>>Algeo whether this could be done. He said the Board would have to do it.
>>>I had contacted John because I'm of the opinion that we can't take another
>>>rift. We're still only partly recovered from the one which occurred around
>>>Bing Escudero.
>>>I myself would just as soon not take part in these revisions discussions at
>>>all. I've had enough standing up for causes in the past & am entitled I
>>>think to some peace in my retirment. I've tried to come in here & there
>>>anyway because the whole thing worries me greatly. After having healed
>>>partly from the former rift here we go again & I see the whole TS becoming
>>>even more ineffective. Since my whole lifestyle is firmly rooted in
>>>Theosophy and since I think we have something really worthwhile to offer to
>>>others I hate to watch the Society the vehicle of Theosophy go down the
>>>tubes. I think it's heading that way but I really don't know how one could
>>>stop it since it involves more than our Board & our President it involves
>>>Adyar.
>>>
>>>Liesel
>>
>>Liesel:
>>
>>1. Please do not give up. We need take active interest in an organization
>>from which and from whose philosophy we all have benefitted and thru us
>>others may have benfitted. We are dealing with the long term future of TS
>>and all of us are motivated by the same objectives and goals and we have to
>>speak up when we see there is a need to speak up. Not speaking up means we
>>are missing an opportunity. It is the collective inputs that help the TS
>>continue to be strong and useful to the Humanity.
>>
>>2. If you have carefully noticed I have copied my postings that I feel are
>>very important to our International President National President and the
>>National Board. I am confident that as International and National get the
>>feedback as to some of our thinking and opinions they will be in a better
>>position to address the important issues that need to be addressed. The
>>views on issues from members in the field is very important as it gives a
>>better picture of the issues as viewed from the field.
>>
>>MK Ramadoss
>>
>>Doss I guess I'm not really giving up but my input is rather tired & 1/2
>hearted. I realize that this revisions question is very important but I'd
>rather be doing something else.
>
>Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 11:06:20 GMT
From: liesel@dreamscape.com liesel f. deutsch
Subject: Re: Object 02
>At 085700 PM 12/23/95 -0500 Alan wrote:
>>
>>When the Adyar objects are considered there is no commitment to
>>study anything at all and theosophy as a subject is not even
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>mentioned an all too familiar peculiarity to the Adyar TS
> ^^^^^^^^^
>>thinking members.
>>
>
> It is one of the very important facts that I point out to new and
>prospective members that it is *the only* organization where its main
>subject is not *defined*. The motto of TS is "There is no Religion Higher
>Than Truth". As all of us are just students of Truth Divine Wisdom -
>Theo-Sophia cannot IMHO be static and be *defined*. The fact that TS has
>lived for 120 years is a standing evidence of the soundness of this decision
>of the Founders.
>
> IMHO that is why when there is some talk about the what lodges and
>study centers should *study* I felt that there could not and should not be
>any specific set of books as the specific line of work of each lodge/study
>center/ is different from any other.
>
> Long time ago I was a associated with an extremely active lodge
>which is as active today which had close to 300 members not counting
>their family members who participated in the programs. For example in
>spite of the varied kinds of programs there was *not* a single lecture or
>study class on "Secret Doctrine" during the thirteen years I attended the
>lodge programs. So each lodge has to tailor its activities to the line of
>work its members want to commit themselves.
>
>MK Ramadoss
>
>Doss
I don't quite agree with you on that one. The pattern you describe was
followed by the small branch I was President of in NJ. We went along for
many years with a very varied Theosophical program until one fine day we
decided that we should really study Basic Theosophy because none of us were
sure of what it really was. I think it's a good idea to at least briefly
study the basics of Theosophy & then branch out from there. The trouble is
no one has as yet written a decent brief Basic Theosophy course. The only
one by Imogene Simons is hopelessly dated. I haven't looked at Doss
McDavid's but the blurp on that one says that it's for more advanced
students. Also I imagine it's too long. My idea is to have something that
touches briefly on the main Theosophical concepts & then let the group go
on from there to wherever they wish to go. I think to tie up a group for
several months by only giving them Basic Theosophy would be deadly. I know
that the group I'm trying to keep alive just now the Onondaga Provisional
Study Center isn't too interested in Basic Theosophy. They're interested in
New Age & esoteric things. They enjoy being members because they get "the
Quest". But other than that Theosophy doesn't mean too much to them yet &
I think meetings filled with nothing but Basic Theosophy would be the end.
We're struggling now without that because I'm insisting that I can't be the
whole program. They loved it when I ran the show & they came &
participated but I'm having problems with getting one of them to run the
show. If I now come preaching Theosophy I'd make it brief & in a style
that won't bore them to death.
>
>Liesel
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 11:58:03 GMT
From: "Peter I. Walstra"
Subject: RE: Solstice
Just my part of the experience...
Some friends of mine were talking about doing something special at the time
of the solstice at midnight for celebrating this turning point. I didn't hear
much of it anymore and at the appointed evening I was still working late
having to follow a study course in evening hours. Tired as I was I did decide
to drop by with my friends and found out that they were having a dip as well
and there was only the three of us. After some tea we made a short walk
outside; it was misty gloomy and cold. Feeling still somewhat unsatisfied
we decided to head for a small kind of forest nearby. Nobody to be seen
there; just some noise of cars in the distance. There was a small lake and
some ice had already formed just about enough to shuffle around a bit on the
water. We didn't have any specific ceremony in mind but saying the Great
Invocation together hands joined standing in a triangle seemed very
appropriate. Especially the part of invoking Light from the mind of God. It
was a solemn silence afterwards despite the cold feet : and back home we
all were glad we had given some attention to the solstice after all. It may
not be much or look trivial and weird to passers-by! but actually doing
something physically when it's much easier keeping seated in front of the
television with a lot of x-mas cookies makes you just a little bit more
conscious -again- about being an earth-citizen.
/* Peter I. Walstra */
Private: pwalstra@pi.net
Member Theosophy International WTYF TS [...] Human Race.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 13:23:08 GMT
From: Aprioripa@aol.com
Subject: Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
at http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/gs.html
Light & Love
Patrick
Adyar TS
> ^^^^^^^^^
> >thinking members.
> >
>
> It is one of the very important facts that I point out to new and
> prospective members that it is *the only* organization where its main
> subject is not *defined*. The motto of TS is "There is no Religion Higher
> Than Truth". As all of us are just students of Truth Divine Wisdom -
> Theo-Sophia cannot IMHO be static and be *defined*. The fact that TS has
> lived for 120 years is a standing evidence of the soundness of this decision
> of the Founders.
Err... if its main subject is not defined then it does not have
a main subject. Therefore any attempt to make the study of
theosophy part of the curriculum is contrary to the the sound
decision of the founders ..... ?
> Long time ago I was a associated with an extremely active lodge
> which is as active today which had close to 300 members not counting
> their family members who participated in the programs. For example in
> spite of the varied kinds of programs there was *not* a single lecture or
> study class on "Secret Doctrine" during the thirteen years I attended the
> lodge programs. So each lodge has to tailor its activities to the line of
> work its members want to commit themselves.
>
> MK Ramadoss
In my own lodge of late some of the members have begun to ask
"What is this theosophy thing that gives us our name? Can
someone tell us please?" Come the Spring we intend to do just
that. With them I feel it is absurd to have a society with a
description in its name theosophical with lodges branches
which are not theosophical. Common sense?
Alan
Thought for the day: isn't it odd that our typos only appear
when our postings come back to us ....
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 13:23:08 GMT
From: Aprioripa@aol.com
Subject: Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
at http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/gs.html
Light & Love
Patrick
Adyar TS
> ^^^^^^^^^
> >thinking members.
> >
>
> It is one of the very important facts that I point out to new and
> prospective members that it is *the only* organization where its main
> subject is not *defined*. The motto of TS is "There is no Religion Higher
> Than Truth". As all of us are just students of Truth Divine Wisdom -
> Theo-Sophia cannot IMHO be static and be *defined*. The fact that TS has
> lived for 120 years is a standing evidence of the soundness of this decision
> of the Founders.
Err... if its main subject is not defined then it does not have
a main subject. Therefore any attempt to make the study of
theosophy part of the curriculum is contrary to the the sound
decision of the founders ..... ?
> Long time ago I was a associated with an extremely active lodge
> which is as active today which had close to 300 members not counting
> their family members who participated in the programs. For example in
> spite of the varied kinds of programs there was *not* a single lecture or
> study class on "Secret Doctrine" during the thirteen years I attended the
> lodge programs. So each lodge has to tailor its activities to the line of
> work its members want to commit themselves.
>
> MK Ramadoss
In my own lodge of late some of the members have begun to ask
"What is this theosophy thing that gives us our name? Can
someone tell us please?" Come the Spring we intend to do just
that. With them I feel it is absurd to have a society with a
description in its name theosophical with lodges branches
which are not theosophical. Common sense?
Alan
Thought for the day: isn't it odd that our typos only appear
when our postings come back to us ....
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 20:45:38 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
Hi Patrick
>In my own lodge of late some of the members have begun to ask
>"What is this theosophy thing that gives us our name? Can
>someone tell us please?" Come the Spring we intend to do just
>that. With them I feel it is absurd to have a society with a
>description in its name theosophical with lodges branches
>which are not theosophical. Common sense?
You have perhaps touched upon *the* critical question which may have to get
answered before the Theosophical Society can go forward. Will you forgive me
for jumping in?
THE NEW LEXICON WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ENCYCLOPEDIC
EDITION gives two definitions--one for *theosophy* one for *Theosophy*:
1. *theosophy*: "any philosophical and religious system [add *and fact*]
based on intuitive knowledge of [add *or transcendental approach toward*] the
divine."
2. *Theosophy*: "a system of thought and practice derived from esp.
Buddhist and Brahminical religious mysticism by Madame Blavatsky in 1875 in
the U.S.A. and propagated by the Theosophical Society which she founded. It
claims to be a synthesis of those elements in all religions which result from
divine revalation and to enable its followers to establish personal
communion with God."
Now while perhaps both definitions leave something to be desired they do
provide a clean way to ask the important question: Does the *Theosophical*
in *The Theosophical Society* stand for something closer to definition #1 or
#2? In my mind I find it hard to believe that the Founders meant it to
stand for both--however I don't know.
Because I came to the Society from a philosophical background and seeing THE
THREE OBJECTS etc. I naturally assumed that the first definition was the
operative one. Indeed for most of my years of membership the wide variety
of subjects explored by individuals etc. gave me every reason to believe that
it *was* the operative one. For me *theosophy* will principally continue to
be the word for the epistemology which allows for the validity of knowledge
which does not come from strict empirical observation or science--the
knowledge which is associated with religions astrology mysticism esoteric
writers not necessarily named Blavatsky etc.
But also within the Theosophical Society we have the definition-#2 people.
They are strong and getting stronger as the membership declines. They
would like to firmly establish as a fact that the *Theosophical* in the
Theosophical Society means definition #2.
To counter that possibility my answer to members who might ask "What is
this theosophy thing that gives us our name?" would be something like this:
"It is the method by which you personally and transcendentally accumulate
little nuggets of unsupported-but-absolute certainty about subjects
impervious to other methods. Come Spring we're going to dig around one
theosophist's mother lode--THE SECRET DOCTRINE."
What do you think?
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 20:45:38 GMT
From: RIhle@aol.com
Subject: Re: Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
Hi Patrick
>In my own lodge of late some of the members have begun to ask
>"What is this theosophy thing that gives us our name? Can
>someone tell us please?" Come the Spring we intend to do just
>that. With them I feel it is absurd to have a society with a
>description in its name theosophical with lodges branches
>which are not theosophical. Common sense?
You have perhaps touched upon *the* critical question which may have to get
answered before the Theosophical Society can go forward. Will you forgive me
for jumping in?
THE NEW LEXICON WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ENCYCLOPEDIC
EDITION gives two definitions--one for *theosophy* one for *Theosophy*:
1. *theosophy*: "any philosophical and religious system [add *and fact*]
based on intuitive knowledge of [add *or transcendental approach toward*] the
divine."
2. *Theosophy*: "a system of thought and practice derived from esp.
Buddhist and Brahminical religious mysticism by Madame Blavatsky in 1875 in
the U.S.A. and propagated by the Theosophical Society which she founded. It
claims to be a synthesis of those elements in all religions which result from
divine revalation and to enable its followers to establish personal
communion with God."
Now while perhaps both definitions leave something to be desired they do
provide a clean way to ask the important question: Does the *Theosophical*
in *The Theosophical Society* stand for something closer to definition #1 or
#2? In my mind I find it hard to believe that the Founders meant it to
stand for both--however I don't know.
Because I came to the Society from a philosophical background and seeing THE
THREE OBJECTS etc. I naturally assumed that the first definition was the
operative one. Indeed for most of my years of membership the wide variety
of subjects explored by individuals etc. gave me every reason to believe that
it *was* the operative one. For me *theosophy* will principally continue to
be the word for the epistemology which allows for the validity of knowledge
which does not come from strict empirical observation or science--the
knowledge which is associated with religions astrology mysticism esoteric
writers not necessarily named Blavatsky etc.
But also within the Theosophical Society we have the definition-#2 people.
They are strong and getting stronger as the membership declines. They
would like to firmly establish as a fact that the *Theosophical* in the
Theosophical Society means definition #2.
To counter that possibility my answer to members who might ask "What is
this theosophy thing that gives us our name?" would be something like this:
"It is the method by which you personally and transcendentally accumulate
little nuggets of unsupported-but-absolute certainty about subjects
impervious to other methods. Come Spring we're going to dig around one
theosophist's mother lode--THE SECRET DOCTRINE."
What do you think?
Best wishes
Richard Ihle
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 22:51:48 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Re: Regarding TI
>
> I have been following *very closely* what is going on relative to
> TSA's Bylaws. As far as I know I *do not* see any power struggle.
I have been following very closely the discusson of all this on
theos-l! There clearly *is* a power struggle insofar as TSA HQ
are so I keep hearing attempting to railroad through a set of
by-law revisions because they want to reinforce their authority
over the membership. In other words having the power they
want to keep it. They may I suspect want to act quickly in
order to get the changes in place before the next set of
elections.
> No matter what is discussed here TS it is *not* going to wither
> away because at the lodge/branch/study center level the activities are
> going to go on. The strength and vitality and usefulness of each
> lodge/branch/study center and any organization depends on the dedication and
> sacrifices of a *few individuals*. We do have such individuals at each
> lodge/branch/study center. It is each individual member who spread Theosophy
> and help the other individuals members or not with whom they come into
> contact.
In England over the last 20 years or so the same is true - but
*the number of lodges and centres* has steadily decreased and
shows few signs of reversing this trend. Two Lodges in this area
have closed down completely in recent times Bath Somerset and
Cheltenham Gloucestershire. Neither place is a small one both in
fact being large enough to need multi-storey car parks :. My
own Lodge has been helped to survive premises-wise by these
sad events - we eventually had the proceeds from the sale of the
Bath premises which enabled us to prevent our own from falling
down.
Oh - and it seems we Adyar have lost a few NATIONAL sections!
Come on Richard look reality in the face!
> Just thought I should share my views with everyone.
> MK Ramadoss
> Scribed at 4.00am cdt 12/26/95
Me too ....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 26 Dec 1996 22:51:48 GMT
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain"
Subject: Re: Regarding TI
>
> I have been following *very closely* what is going on relative to
> TSA's Bylaws. As far as I know I *do not* see any power struggle.
I have been following very closely the discusson of all this on
theos-l! There clearly *is* a power struggle insofar as TSA HQ
are so I keep hearing attempting to railroad through a set of
by-law revisions because they want to reinforce their authority
over the membership. In other words having the power they
want to keep it. They may I suspect want to act quickly in
order to get the changes in place before the next set of
elections.
> No matter what is discussed here TS it is *not* going to wither
> away because at the lodge/branch/study center level the activities are
> going to go on. The strength and vitality and usefulness of each
> lodge/branch/study center and any organization depends on the dedication and
> sacrifices of a *few individuals*. We do have such individuals at each
> lodge/branch/study center. It is each individual member who spread Theosophy
> and help the other individuals members or not with whom they come into
> contact.
In England over the last 20 years or so the same is true - but
*the number of lodges and centres* has steadily decreased and
shows few signs of reversing this trend. Two Lodges in this area
have closed down completely in recent times Bath Somerset and
Cheltenham Gloucestershire. Neither place is a small one both in
fact being large enough to need multi-storey car parks :. My
own Lodge has been helped to survive premises-wise by these
sad events - we eventually had the proceeds from the sale of the
Bath premises which enabled us to prevent our own from falling
down.
Oh - and it seems we Adyar have lost a few NATIONAL sections!
Come on Richard look reality in the face!
> Just thought I should share my views with everyone.
> MK Ramadoss
> Scribed at 4.00am cdt 12/26/95
Me too ....
Alan
--
Member Theosophy International.
Member Human Race.
----------------------------------------
Private e-mail: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 00:12:37 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
Richard ...
Excellent.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 00:12:37 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: Esoteric Astrology Signs of Nations Global International
Richard ...
Excellent.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 00:14:06 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
>From John Mead:
>I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that
>the intent of the changes were to directly conform with requests
>from the Adyar/Committee.
Is there some particular reason why this explanation was not
sent to the general list? Especially since so many have been
asking for precisely this kind of explanation?
>We seem to be caught up in an argument about the implementation
>vs. the *intent* of the changes.
It seems more like the core issue is the *ramifications* of
the changes and the shift of power towards centralized control
from HQ that they entail. Both the original intent and the
details of implementation are both *expressions* of this concern.
The result of the new by-laws regardless of intent will be a
further consolidation of power at the HQ level IMO continuing a
trend that began when HQ began passing by-laws greatly limiting
who could stand as a candidate for office. The way the proposals
have been presented for a vote seems to me to contain the same
attitude contained in the proposals themselves: That HQ knows
what is best for the membership and the membership ought to just
agree to be taken care of as HQ sees fit.
>It is clear from e-mail and also snail-mail that we have the
>following options:
>1 By-Laws get Ratified and several lodges file suit.
>2 By-Laws get rejected and we have many within the TSA who do
>not trust the TSA administration -- which is not good for
>anyone/organization. law-suits would probably follow too
Yes and the lack of trust in a membership almost
*predisposed* to want to trust in the intentions of its officers
is the direct result of the *behavior of TSA Administrations
past and present*. **It is the responsibility of the TSA
Administration to regain that trust** ... most especially if it
wants the membership to actually give it more power. The
Administration IMO has mistaken the silence of many members for
contentment with policy. It had better understand that there is
significant discontent among the ranks and the current by-law
fiasco is not the only problem but is more like a final straw
that caused normally quiet voices to speak up. The Bing
situation for instance appeared to many to signify the
willingness of HQ to use its power in an arbitrary and personal
way to look like a particular faction that had been used to
choosing leaders felt free to even possibly pass by-laws with the
intention of keeping a "non-chosen" out of office ... and it is
then surprised when the membership reacts to its desire for
*more* power?
>we need new options:
>1 we need to allow TSA to gracefully extend the election. This
>means that they can extend it *without* blame -- i.e. backing
>off can SEEM like a defeat and be embarrassing. I think that
>they can decide to postpone elections in a manner which
>signifies a *responsive presidency/board* decision which we
>should ACCEPT as an HONEST effort to allow a larger window of
>discussion. We need to allow for misunderstandings and
>communication problems as *honest* problems due to the current
>communication networks. NOT as personal attacks against certain
>brothers/sisters within our organization.
Well here may be the most difficult part of the situation.
I fear I cannot agree with the sentiment here ... and *my* intent
also is the long term good of the TSA. The TSA Administration
for whatever its reasons kept virtually secret until the very
last moment when it was almost too late to do anything a major
revision of the laws governing our organization. It then broke
several of the current laws governing the means by which the
revisions would be voted upon made absolutely no effort to
encourage discourse and in fact seemed to attempt to thwart it.
It also recently not only showed itself willing to use its
substantial financial clout that it has because of *us* ... past
and present members who have given money against one of our own
Lodges but then gave this a spin that impugned the motives and
accused the character of some Boston Theosophists to justify its
own position that letter from the attorney posted on theos-l
but also distributed by HQ with an introduction from JA ... was
almost pure political smear tactics ... actually implying that
the Boston members were intending to sell the Lodge and pocket
the money personally ... and the apology Rich rightly demanded
has *not* been forthcoming. While I believe the membership would
*welcome* a *genuinely responsive* presidency/board I do not
think it healthy to try to figure out how to allow the
presidency/board to *appear* responsive when it has for some time
seemed far more responsive to Adyar than to its own membership
even acted *directly against* some of its own members and only
now in an effort to mitigate the crisis of legitimacy it has
itself caused finds itself *forced* to be responsive.
In short uncomfortable as it is to accept HQ has had no
qualms about playing political hard-ball to achieve its ends
without regard to sentiment within the membership and now when
suddenly it went the final step too far and finds itself besieged
by a somewhat severe reaction from the membership its ignored it
cannot suddenly sit back with no penalty to pay. It is reaping
its own self-generated karma - its current dilemma was *entirely*
created by its own behavior.
Why should the membership attempt to help it find a "face-
saving" way out of its mess? Compassion? A sense of
"brotherhood"? These things are noble ideals but not when they
applied in such a way as to inhibit *growth*. Many non-profits
as they grow and evolve have periodic power grabs at their HQ's
but in feeling the full force of the *effects* of them
institutional *growth* happens as for instance in the United
Way in 94 and the NAACP in 95 ... IMO it will be very *helpful*
to the TSA Administration to have this current disaster *seared*
into its institutional memory - for it to understand that if it
behaves as it has been in the future it is taking a *risk*. We
*want* future TSA officers and board members to *understand* that
they serve the *membership* not Adyar or their own particular
visions that *the Lodges and members do not need them ... they
need the Lodges and members*; that if they want to operate
according to the model of the Roman Catholic church with Adyar
as "Rome" dispensing edicts to the "Archbishops" at Wheaton who
then adapt them to an obedient membership they will discover
that American Theosophists will react pretty much like American
Roman Catholics have been ... with many members leaving and even
among those who stay formally connected less and less of
inclination to consider the pronouncements of the hierarchy in
any way binding on them.
I don't think Wheaton needs another option they have two:
1 Simply declare the current vote null and void due to the
irregularities present in the process as noted in the letter
from Lodge Presidents or
2 By a vote of the Board withdraw the current revisions.
Either one of these *accompanied by an apology to the
membership and a public declaration that a suitable length of
time e.g. 01 year for Society-wide discussion would be
permitted before another vote was called* would probably go a
long way towards diffusing the temporary crisis ... but I also
think there is a much longer-term distrust that it will take
quite some time to make right.
And finally to address the "personality" issue: I
understand that we do wish to be nice that we want to keep
things at the level of legitimate debate about the ideas
themselves ... but we must remember that it has taken a good
number of Theosophists expending considerable energy even to
reach the point where the membership is on the verge of being
given the time and information necessary to even *allow*
reasonable debate: HQ had to be *forced* into it ... and it was
not abstract entities that attempted to do this it was *people*.
We are talking about the Administration of an organization and
the behavior of its elected officials; decisions don't just get
made *people* make them ... and just as organizations grow by
being held accountable for their actions so too the
*individuals* who are given the *power* to make decisions must be
made to bear the *responsibility for its use.*
I do not know John Algeo personally but *as President* I
can't help but see the TSA being badly damaged: Tight control has
been exerted over the AT; membership has declined significantly;
the Theosophical Trusts have lost considerable equity; and the
Lodges and membership are now embroiled in a by-laws fiasco that
at best is taking considerable energy from members who might
better spend time on Lodge activities and at worst threatens an
outright schism. John Algeo was groomed for the job by our
"Bishops" ran for the job and gets paid for doing the job and
it is not a "personal" attack to say that by every almost
standard measure that a non-profit might use to assess the job
performance of its President or Executive Director - membership
figures financial conditions membership morale accomplishment
of mission - the TS is in worse shape since he took office.
[While my own suggestions for by-law changes will be in the
next post I should mention here that the absurdity of the by-
laws restricting who can run as candidates show themselves here:
Time as a member or on the Board simply assures one knows
Theosophy but for instance deep knowledge of the SD and
administrative skills *have nothing to do with one another*. In
the TSA our President acts as Executive Director and I believe
an examination of whether to split those duties ... i.e. *elect*
a President with Theosophical "wisdom" and have the Board *hire*
an Executive Director with demonstrated organizational and
administrative skills ... is something that ought to be explored
during "by-law discussions". Running a national non-profit
organization with 5000 members and close to 05 million in assets
takes specialized skills and the current by-laws allegedly
designed as the filters to assure the integrity of the positions
not only do not even discuss the qualifications *most* needed by
those who would run the organization but in fact serve to
significantly restrict a number of TSA members who may be far
*more* qualified from running for the office.]
>perhaps we need 9-12 months to really get the arguments out
>in. the open.
Yes.
>we may find it hard to understand but I do not think they
>TSA had anticipated the response to this ballot. We need to
>set up an environment where the devisivness is eliminated. this
>is necessary to preserve the TSA's integrity and restore
>people's faith in the elected members.
The elected members created the environment it is their
responsibility to make things right. They have lost the faith of
the membership because of an attitude that has manifested in far
more than just this current situation; they must IMO *alter
both the attitude and their actions* to regain that faith. So
long as I and many I've spoken to feel as though this current
"openness" on the part of HQ only came about because of the size
and intensity of the reaction without which HQ would have
actually ignored a few procedures and just imposed a new set of
by-laws on the members with barely a fraction of the time needed
for reasoned discussion ... there will be *suspicions*.
>2 I have received a letter from Dr. Algeo where the intent of
>the new By-Laws were *requested* by International Adyar.
>However the wording and implementation were to be determined
>by the TSA. Hence --- we have an instance where the guidelines
>were set but the specific implementation needs to have an open
>discussion esp. between TSA Chapters/Lodges.
Why has no one else received this letter? Why do we only
find out now after the ballots have actually already been
mailed that this is driven by Adyar? What *precisely* did Adyar
"request"? In what *form* was the request delivered? To what
degree can Adyar *force* the American Section to implement such
things? And I don't agree that its just the implementation that
we must discuss ... its the standing of Adyar to make such
"requests" that is an issue as well. How much of this is *legal*
and how much behind-the-scenes tacit agreements? In fact if
Adyar got too insistent the American Section itself might start
debating whether it even matters whether it remains formally
connected to Adyar. This whole situation seems to be surrounded
by too much secrecy. I'd like to see the US-Adyar relationship
explicitly articulated ... and if Adyar wants to "request"
guidelines I'd like to hear them *from Adyar* along with the
reasons *why* Adyar wants them implemented ... to know for
instance whether the whole American Section might be forced to
alter its by-laws as the result of some factional dispute at
*Adyar* - that seems to have recently gotten into the mood to
exert control to the point of excommunicating national sections
that do not behave.
Regardless the fact that neither Adyar or Wheaton even
considered that the American membership *ought to be given full
information* which *to this day* it still does not have about
the source and reasons for the by-law changes is quite
disturbing.
>Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged.
Actually I believe that from a larger view the proper
paradigm may not be fixing a system before it is permanently
broken but rather that of understanding that a required if
painful and upsetting phase shift has been triggered by this
dispute ... a phase shift needed for the TSA to live beyond its
foundational generations and stabilize in a form in which its
greatest service will be in the future rather than in its past:
We began with *Masters* choosing the leaders who lead by
something akin to Divine Right. We then had a number of leaders
Dora the last in America who were elected but whose power and
standing still came chiefly from having *known* or been connected
to those who knew the Masters ... power and leadership legitimacy
has been passed down with something like apostolic succession -
and the leaderships both at Wheaton and at Adyar have long
operated almost as though they were running an *occult hierarchy*
. and Masters do not *consult* chelas when they make the rules
of the order they simply make them and chelas have the right to
either agree or leave the order. We are now perhaps for the
first time having to face the fundamental contradiction between
the Master-Chela and Democratic models of organization and IMO
the leaderships both at Wheaton and Adyar will need to do some
very deep-level re-examinations of attitudes ... because they are
no longer considered "Masters" and the memberships are
increasingly refusing to be their "Chelas". Its likely that the
leaderships will no longer be able to *demand* anything from
memberships that they'd better get rid of the attitude that
voting is just a formality that they can decide what's "best"
for the membership without even consulting the membership
without bothering to even give them full information and just
expect the membership to say "ok! as long as you think that's
best!".
IMO Theosophy will be *much* better off in the long run if
we can accomplish this difficult shift so long as we have the
courage to see it through.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 00:14:06 GMT
From: John R Crocker
Subject: Re: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
>From John Mead:
>I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that
>the intent of the changes were to directly conform with requests
>from the Adyar/Committee.
Is there some particular reason why this explanation was not
sent to the general list? Especially since so many have been
asking for precisely this kind of explanation?
>We seem to be caught up in an argument about the implementation
>vs. the *intent* of the changes.
It seems more like the core issue is the *ramifications* of
the changes and the shift of power towards centralized control
from HQ that they entail. Both the original intent and the
details of implementation are both *expressions* of this concern.
The result of the new by-laws regardless of intent will be a
further consolidation of power at the HQ level IMO continuing a
trend that began when HQ began passing by-laws greatly limiting
who could stand as a candidate for office. The way the proposals
have been presented for a vote seems to me to contain the same
attitude contained in the proposals themselves: That HQ knows
what is best for the membership and the membership ought to just
agree to be taken care of as HQ sees fit.
>It is clear from e-mail and also snail-mail that we have the
>following options:
>1 By-Laws get Ratified and several lodges file suit.
>2 By-Laws get rejected and we have many within the TSA who do
>not trust the TSA administration -- which is not good for
>anyone/organization. law-suits would probably follow too
Yes and the lack of trust in a membership almost
*predisposed* to want to trust in the intentions of its officers
is the direct result of the *behavior of TSA Administrations
past and present*. **It is the responsibility of the TSA
Administration to regain that trust** ... most especially if it
wants the membership to actually give it more power. The
Administration IMO has mistaken the silence of many members for
contentment with policy. It had better understand that there is
significant discontent among the ranks and the current by-law
fiasco is not the only problem but is more like a final straw
that caused normally quiet voices to speak up. The Bing
situation for instance appeared to many to signify the
willingness of HQ to use its power in an arbitrary and personal
way to look like a particular faction that had been used to
choosing leaders felt free to even possibly pass by-laws with the
intention of keeping a "non-chosen" out of office ... and it is
then surprised when the membership reacts to its desire for
*more* power?
>we need new options:
>1 we need to allow TSA to gracefully extend the election. This
>means that they can extend it *without* blame -- i.e. backing
>off can SEEM like a defeat and be embarrassing. I think that
>they can decide to postpone elections in a manner which
>signifies a *responsive presidency/board* decision which we
>should ACCEPT as an HONEST effort to allow a larger window of
>discussion. We need to allow for misunderstandings and
>communication problems as *honest* problems due to the current
>communication networks. NOT as personal attacks against certain
>brothers/sisters within our organization.
Well here may be the most difficult part of the situation.
I fear I cannot agree with the sentiment here ... and *my* intent
also is the long term good of the TSA. The TSA Administration
for whatever its reasons kept virtually secret until the very
last moment when it was almost too late to do anything a major
revision of the laws governing our organization. It then broke
several of the current laws governing the means by which the
revisions would be voted upon made absolutely no effort to
encourage discourse and in fact seemed to attempt to thwart it.
It also recently not only showed itself willing to use its
substantial financial clout that it has because of *us* ... past
and present members who have given money against one of our own
Lodges but then gave this a spin that impugned the motives and
accused the character of some Boston Theosophists to justify its
own position that letter from the attorney posted on theos-l
but also distributed by HQ with an introduction from JA ... was
almost pure political smear tactics ... actually implying that
the Boston members were intending to sell the Lodge and pocket
the money personally ... and the apology Rich rightly demanded
has *not* been forthcoming. While I believe the membership would
*welcome* a *genuinely responsive* presidency/board I do not
think it healthy to try to figure out how to allow the
presidency/board to *appear* responsive when it has for some time
seemed far more responsive to Adyar than to its own membership
even acted *directly against* some of its own members and only
now in an effort to mitigate the crisis of legitimacy it has
itself caused finds itself *forced* to be responsive.
In short uncomfortable as it is to accept HQ has had no
qualms about playing political hard-ball to achieve its ends
without regard to sentiment within the membership and now when
suddenly it went the final step too far and finds itself besieged
by a somewhat severe reaction from the membership its ignored it
cannot suddenly sit back with no penalty to pay. It is reaping
its own self-generated karma - its current dilemma was *entirely*
created by its own behavior.
Why should the membership attempt to help it find a "face-
saving" way out of its mess? Compassion? A sense of
"brotherhood"? These things are noble ideals but not when they
applied in such a way as to inhibit *growth*. Many non-profits
as they grow and evolve have periodic power grabs at their HQ's
but in feeling the full force of the *effects* of them
institutional *growth* happens as for instance in the United
Way in 94 and the NAACP in 95 ... IMO it will be very *helpful*
to the TSA Administration to have this current disaster *seared*
into its institutional memory - for it to understand that if it
behaves as it has been in the future it is taking a *risk*. We
*want* future TSA officers and board members to *understand* that
they serve the *membership* not Adyar or their own particular
visions that *the Lodges and members do not need them ... they
need the Lodges and members*; that if they want to operate
according to the model of the Roman Catholic church with Adyar
as "Rome" dispensing edicts to the "Archbishops" at Wheaton who
then adapt them to an obedient membership they will discover
that American Theosophists will react pretty much like American
Roman Catholics have been ... with many members leaving and even
among those who stay formally connected less and less of
inclination to consider the pronouncements of the hierarchy in
any way binding on them.
I don't think Wheaton needs another option they have two:
1 Simply declare the current vote null and void due to the
irregularities present in the process as noted in the letter
from Lodge Presidents or
2 By a vote of the Board withdraw the current revisions.
Either one of these *accompanied by an apology to the
membership and a public declaration that a suitable length of
time e.g. 01 year for Society-wide discussion would be
permitted before another vote was called* would probably go a
long way towards diffusing the temporary crisis ... but I also
think there is a much longer-term distrust that it will take
quite some time to make right.
And finally to address the "personality" issue: I
understand that we do wish to be nice that we want to keep
things at the level of legitimate debate about the ideas
themselves ... but we must remember that it has taken a good
number of Theosophists expending considerable energy even to
reach the point where the membership is on the verge of being
given the time and information necessary to even *allow*
reasonable debate: HQ had to be *forced* into it ... and it was
not abstract entities that attempted to do this it was *people*.
We are talking about the Administration of an organization and
the behavior of its elected officials; decisions don't just get
made *people* make them ... and just as organizations grow by
being held accountable for their actions so too the
*individuals* who are given the *power* to make decisions must be
made to bear the *responsibility for its use.*
I do not know John Algeo personally but *as President* I
can't help but see the TSA being badly damaged: Tight control has
been exerted over the AT; membership has declined significantly;
the Theosophical Trusts have lost considerable equity; and the
Lodges and membership are now embroiled in a by-laws fiasco that
at best is taking considerable energy from members who might
better spend time on Lodge activities and at worst threatens an
outright schism. John Algeo was groomed for the job by our
"Bishops" ran for the job and gets paid for doing the job and
it is not a "personal" attack to say that by every almost
standard measure that a non-profit might use to assess the job
performance of its President or Executive Director - membership
figures financial conditions membership morale accomplishment
of mission - the TS is in worse shape since he took office.
[While my own suggestions for by-law changes will be in the
next post I should mention here that the absurdity of the by-
laws restricting who can run as candidates show themselves here:
Time as a member or on the Board simply assures one knows
Theosophy but for instance deep knowledge of the SD and
administrative skills *have nothing to do with one another*. In
the TSA our President acts as Executive Director and I believe
an examination of whether to split those duties ... i.e. *elect*
a President with Theosophical "wisdom" and have the Board *hire*
an Executive Director with demonstrated organizational and
administrative skills ... is something that ought to be explored
during "by-law discussions". Running a national non-profit
organization with 5000 members and close to 05 million in assets
takes specialized skills and the current by-laws allegedly
designed as the filters to assure the integrity of the positions
not only do not even discuss the qualifications *most* needed by
those who would run the organization but in fact serve to
significantly restrict a number of TSA members who may be far
*more* qualified from running for the office.]
>perhaps we need 9-12 months to really get the arguments out
>in. the open.
Yes.
>we may find it hard to understand but I do not think they
>TSA had anticipated the response to this ballot. We need to
>set up an environment where the devisivness is eliminated. this
>is necessary to preserve the TSA's integrity and restore
>people's faith in the elected members.
The elected members created the environment it is their
responsibility to make things right. They have lost the faith of
the membership because of an attitude that has manifested in far
more than just this current situation; they must IMO *alter
both the attitude and their actions* to regain that faith. So
long as I and many I've spoken to feel as though this current
"openness" on the part of HQ only came about because of the size
and intensity of the reaction without which HQ would have
actually ignored a few procedures and just imposed a new set of
by-laws on the members with barely a fraction of the time needed
for reasoned discussion ... there will be *suspicions*.
>2 I have received a letter from Dr. Algeo where the intent of
>the new By-Laws were *requested* by International Adyar.
>However the wording and implementation were to be determined
>by the TSA. Hence --- we have an instance where the guidelines
>were set but the specific implementation needs to have an open
>discussion esp. between TSA Chapters/Lodges.
Why has no one else received this letter? Why do we only
find out now after the ballots have actually already been
mailed that this is driven by Adyar? What *precisely* did Adyar
"request"? In what *form* was the request delivered? To what
degree can Adyar *force* the American Section to implement such
things? And I don't agree that its just the implementation that
we must discuss ... its the standing of Adyar to make such
"requests" that is an issue as well. How much of this is *legal*
and how much behind-the-scenes tacit agreements? In fact if
Adyar got too insistent the American Section itself might start
debating whether it even matters whether it remains formally
connected to Adyar. This whole situation seems to be surrounded
by too much secrecy. I'd like to see the US-Adyar relationship
explicitly articulated ... and if Adyar wants to "request"
guidelines I'd like to hear them *from Adyar* along with the
reasons *why* Adyar wants them implemented ... to know for
instance whether the whole American Section might be forced to
alter its by-laws as the result of some factional dispute at
*Adyar* - that seems to have recently gotten into the mood to
exert control to the point of excommunicating national sections
that do not behave.
Regardless the fact that neither Adyar or Wheaton even
considered that the American membership *ought to be given full
information* which *to this day* it still does not have about
the source and reasons for the by-law changes is quite
disturbing.
>Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged.
Actually I believe that from a larger view the proper
paradigm may not be fixing a system before it is permanently
broken but rather that of understanding that a required if
painful and upsetting phase shift has been triggered by this
dispute ... a phase shift needed for the TSA to live beyond its
foundational generations and stabilize in a form in which its
greatest service will be in the future rather than in its past:
We began with *Masters* choosing the leaders who lead by
something akin to Divine Right. We then had a number of leaders
Dora the last in America who were elected but whose power and
standing still came chiefly from having *known* or been connected
to those who knew the Masters ... power and leadership legitimacy
has been passed down with something like apostolic succession -
and the leaderships both at Wheaton and at Adyar have long
operated almost as though they were running an *occult hierarchy*
. and Masters do not *consult* chelas when they make the rules
of the order they simply make them and chelas have the right to
either agree or leave the order. We are now perhaps for the
first time having to face the fundamental contradiction between
the Master-Chela and Democratic models of organization and IMO
the leaderships both at Wheaton and Adyar will need to do some
very deep-level re-examinations of attitudes ... because they are
no longer considered "Masters" and the memberships are
increasingly refusing to be their "Chelas". Its likely that the
leaderships will no longer be able to *demand* anything from
memberships that they'd better get rid of the attitude that
voting is just a formality that they can decide what's "best"
for the membership without even consulting the membership
without bothering to even give them full information and just
expect the membership to say "ok! as long as you think that's
best!".
IMO Theosophy will be *much* better off in the long run if
we can accomplish this difficult shift so long as we have the
courage to see it through.
-JRC
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 03:30:57 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
Dear John Crocker:
Your message is an excellent and comprehensive response.
I hope it is read by John Algeo and the Board of Directors very very
carefully and closely.
I also hope Wheaton copies it to Radha Burnier and the General Council by
FAX and not by snailmail.
.doss
============================================================================
=====
At 091700 AM 12/27/95 -JRC wrote:
>>From John Mead:
>
>>I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that
>>the intent of the changes were to directly conform with requests
>>from the Adyar/Committee.
> Is there some particular reason why this explanation was not
>sent to the general list? Especially since so many have been
>asking for precisely this kind of explanation?
>
>>We seem to be caught up in an argument about the implementation
>>vs. the *intent* of the changes.
> It seems more like the core issue is the *ramifications* of
>the changes and the shift of power towards centralized control
>from HQ that they entail. Both the original intent and the
>details of implementation are both *expressions* of this concern.
>The result of the new by-laws regardless of intent will be a
>further consolidation of power at the HQ level IMO continuing a
>trend that began when HQ began passing by-laws greatly limiting
>who could stand as a candidate for office. The way the proposals
>have been presented for a vote seems to me to contain the same
>attitude contained in the proposals themselves: That HQ knows
>what is best for the membership and the membership ought to just
>agree to be taken care of as HQ sees fit.
>
>>It is clear from e-mail and also snail-mail that we have the
>>following options:
>>1 By-Laws get Ratified and several lodges file suit.
>>2 By-Laws get rejected and we have many within the TSA who do
>>not trust the TSA administration -- which is not good for
>>anyone/organization. law-suits would probably follow too
> Yes and the lack of trust in a membership almost
>*predisposed* to want to trust in the intentions of its officers
>is the direct result of the *behavior of TSA Administrations
>past and present*. **It is the responsibility of the TSA
>Administration to regain that trust** ... most especially if it
>wants the membership to actually give it more power. The
>Administration IMO has mistaken the silence of many members for
>contentment with policy. It had better understand that there is
>significant discontent among the ranks and the current by-law
>fiasco is not the only problem but is more like a final straw
>that caused normally quiet voices to speak up. The Bing
>situation for instance appeared to many to signify the
>willingness of HQ to use its power in an arbitrary and personal
>way to look like a particular faction that had been used to
>choosing leaders felt free to even possibly pass by-laws with the
>intention of keeping a "non-chosen" out of office ... and it is
>then surprised when the membership reacts to its desire for
>*more* power?
>
>>we need new options:
>>1 we need to allow TSA to gracefully extend the election. This
>>means that they can extend it *without* blame -- i.e. backing
>>off can SEEM like a defeat and be embarrassing. I think that
>>they can decide to postpone elections in a manner which
>>signifies a *responsive presidency/board* decision which we
>>should ACCEPT as an HONEST effort to allow a larger window of
>>discussion. We need to allow for misunderstandings and
>>communication problems as *honest* problems due to the current
>>communication networks. NOT as personal attacks against certain
>>brothers/sisters within our organization.
> Well here may be the most difficult part of the situation.
>I fear I cannot agree with the sentiment here ... and *my* intent
>also is the long term good of the TSA. The TSA Administration
>for whatever its reasons kept virtually secret until the very
>last moment when it was almost too late to do anything a major
>revision of the laws governing our organization. It then broke
>several of the current laws governing the means by which the
>revisions would be voted upon made absolutely no effort to
>encourage discourse and in fact seemed to attempt to thwart it.
>It also recently not only showed itself willing to use its
>substantial financial clout that it has because of *us* ... past
>and present members who have given money against one of our own
>Lodges but then gave this a spin that impugned the motives and
>accused the character of some Boston Theosophists to justify its
>own position that letter from the attorney posted on theos-l
>but also distributed by HQ with an introduction from JA ... was
>almost pure political smear tactics ... actually implying that
>the Boston members were intending to sell the Lodge and pocket
>the money personally ... and the apology Rich rightly demanded
>has *not* been forthcoming. While I believe the membership would
>*welcome* a *genuinely responsive* presidency/board I do not
>think it healthy to try to figure out how to allow the
>presidency/board to *appear* responsive when it has for some time
>seemed far more responsive to Adyar than to its own membership
>even acted *directly against* some of its own members and only
>now in an effort to mitigate the crisis of legitimacy it has
>itself caused finds itself *forced* to be responsive.
> In short uncomfortable as it is to accept HQ has had no
>qualms about playing political hard-ball to achieve its ends
>without regard to sentiment within the membership and now when
>suddenly it went the final step too far and finds itself besieged
>by a somewhat severe reaction from the membership its ignored it
>cannot suddenly sit back with no penalty to pay. It is reaping
>its own self-generated karma - its current dilemma was *entirely*
>created by its own behavior.
> Why should the membership attempt to help it find a "face-
>saving" way out of its mess? Compassion? A sense of
>"brotherhood"? These things are noble ideals but not when they
>applied in such a way as to inhibit *growth*. Many non-profits
>as they grow and evolve have periodic power grabs at their HQ's
>but in feeling the full force of the *effects* of them
>institutional *growth* happens as for instance in the United
>Way in 94 and the NAACP in 95 ... IMO it will be very *helpful*
>to the TSA Administration to have this current disaster *seared*
>into its institutional memory - for it to understand that if it
>behaves as it has been in the future it is taking a *risk*. We
>*want* future TSA officers and board members to *understand* that
>they serve the *membership* not Adyar or their own particular
>visions that *the Lodges and members do not need them ... they
>need the Lodges and members*; that if they want to operate
>according to the model of the Roman Catholic church with Adyar
>as "Rome" dispensing edicts to the "Archbishops" at Wheaton who
>then adapt them to an obedient membership they will discover
>that American Theosophists will react pretty much like American
>Roman Catholics have been ... with many members leaving and even
>among those who stay formally connected less and less of
>inclination to consider the pronouncements of the hierarchy in
>any way binding on them.
> I don't think Wheaton needs another option they have two:
>1 Simply declare the current vote null and void due to the
>irregularities present in the process as noted in the letter
>from Lodge Presidents or
>2 By a vote of the Board withdraw the current revisions.
> Either one of these *accompanied by an apology to the
>membership and a public declaration that a suitable length of
>time e.g. 01 year for Society-wide discussion would be
>permitted before another vote was called* would probably go a
>long way towards diffusing the temporary crisis ... but I also
>think there is a much longer-term distrust that it will take
>quite some time to make right.
> And finally to address the "personality" issue: I
>understand that we do wish to be nice that we want to keep
>things at the level of legitimate debate about the ideas
>themselves ... but we must remember that it has taken a good
>number of Theosophists expending considerable energy even to
>reach the point where the membership is on the verge of being
>given the time and information necessary to even *allow*
>reasonable debate: HQ had to be *forced* into it ... and it was
>not abstract entities that attempted to do this it was *people*.
>We are talking about the Administration of an organization and
>the behavior of its elected officials; decisions don't just get
>made *people* make them ... and just as organizations grow by
>being held accountable for their actions so too the
>*individuals* who are given the *power* to make decisions must be
>made to bear the *responsibility for its use.*
> I do not know John Algeo personally but *as President* I
>can't help but see the TSA being badly damaged: Tight control has
>been exerted over the AT; membership has declined significantly;
>the Theosophical Trusts have lost considerable equity; and the
>Lodges and membership are now embroiled in a by-laws fiasco that
>at best is taking considerable energy from members who might
>better spend time on Lodge activities and at worst threatens an
>outright schism. John Algeo was groomed for the job by our
>"Bishops" ran for the job and gets paid for doing the job and
>it is not a "personal" attack to say that by every almost
>standard measure that a non-profit might use to assess the job
>performance of its President or Executive Director - membership
>figures financial conditions membership morale accomplishment
>of mission - the TS is in worse shape since he took office.
> [While my own suggestions for by-law changes will be in the
>next post I should mention here that the absurdity of the by-
>laws restricting who can run as candidates show themselves here:
>Time as a member or on the Board simply assures one knows
>Theosophy but for instance deep knowledge of the SD and
>administrative skills *have nothing to do with one another*. In
>the TSA our President acts as Executive Director and I believe
>an examination of whether to split those duties ... i.e. *elect*
>a President with Theosophical "wisdom" and have the Board *hire*
>an Executive Director with demonstrated organizational and
>administrative skills ... is something that ought to be explored
>during "by-law discussions". Running a national non-profit
>organization with 5000 members and close to 05 million in assets
>takes specialized skills and the current by-laws allegedly
>designed as the filters to assure the integrity of the positions
>not only do not even discuss the qualifications *most* needed by
>those who would run the organization but in fact serve to
>significantly restrict a number of TSA members who may be far
>*more* qualified from running for the office.]
>
>>perhaps we need 9-12 months to really get the arguments out
>>in. the open.
> Yes.
>
>>we may find it hard to understand but I do not think they
>>TSA had anticipated the response to this ballot. We need to
>>set up an environment where the devisivness is eliminated. this
>>is necessary to preserve the TSA's integrity and restore
>>people's faith in the elected members.
> The elected members created the environment it is their
>responsibility to make things right. They have lost the faith of
>the membership because of an attitude that has manifested in far
>more than just this current situation; they must IMO *alter
>both the attitude and their actions* to regain that faith. So
>long as I and many I've spoken to feel as though this current
>"openness" on the part of HQ only came about because of the size
>and intensity of the reaction without which HQ would have
>actually ignored a few procedures and just imposed a new set of
>by-laws on the members with barely a fraction of the time needed
>for reasoned discussion ... there will be *suspicions*.
>
>>2 I have received a letter from Dr. Algeo where the intent of
>>the new By-Laws were *requested* by International Adyar.
>>However the wording and implementation were to be determined
>>by the TSA. Hence --- we have an instance where the guidelines
>>were set but the specific implementation needs to have an open
>>discussion esp. between TSA Chapters/Lodges.
> Why has no one else received this letter? Why do we only
>find out now after the ballots have actually already been
>mailed that this is driven by Adyar? What *precisely* did Adyar
>"request"? In what *form* was the request delivered? To what
>degree can Adyar *force* the American Section to implement such
>things? And I don't agree that its just the implementation that
>we must discuss ... its the standing of Adyar to make such
>"requests" that is an issue as well. How much of this is *legal*
>and how much behind-the-scenes tacit agreements? In fact if
>Adyar got too insistent the American Section itself might start
>debating whether it even matters whether it remains formally
>connected to Adyar. This whole situation seems to be surrounded
>by too much secrecy. I'd like to see the US-Adyar relationship
>explicitly articulated ... and if Adyar wants to "request"
>guidelines I'd like to hear them *from Adyar* along with the
>reasons *why* Adyar wants them implemented ... to know for
>instance whether the whole American Section might be forced to
>alter its by-laws as the result of some factional dispute at
>*Adyar* - that seems to have recently gotten into the mood to
>exert control to the point of excommunicating national sections
>that do not behave.
> Regardless the fact that neither Adyar or Wheaton even
>considered that the American membership *ought to be given full
>information* which *to this day* it still does not have about
>the source and reasons for the by-law changes is quite
>disturbing.
>
>>Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged.
> Actually I believe that from a larger view the proper
>paradigm may not be fixing a system before it is permanently
>broken but rather that of understanding that a required if
>painful and upsetting phase shift has been triggered by this
>dispute ... a phase shift needed for the TSA to live beyond its
>foundational generations and stabilize in a form in which its
>greatest service will be in the future rather than in its past:
> We began with *Masters* choosing the leaders who lead by
>something akin to Divine Right. We then had a number of leaders
>Dora the last in America who were elected but whose power and
>standing still came chiefly from having *known* or been connected
>to those who knew the Masters ... power and leadership legitimacy
>has been passed down with something like apostolic succession -
>and the leaderships both at Wheaton and at Adyar have long
>operated almost as though they were running an *occult hierarchy*
>.. and Masters do not *consult* chelas when they make the rules
>of the order they simply make them and chelas have the right to
>either agree or leave the order. We are now perhaps for the
>first time having to face the fundamental contradiction between
>the Master-Chela and Democratic models of organization and IMO
>the leaderships both at Wheaton and Adyar will need to do some
>very deep-level re-examinations of attitudes ... because they are
>no longer considered "Masters" and the memberships are
>increasingly refusing to be their "Chelas". Its likely that the
>leaderships will no longer be able to *demand* anything from
>memberships that they'd better get rid of the attitude that
>voting is just a formality that they can decide what's "best"
>for the membership without even consulting the membership
>without bothering to even give them full information and just
>expect the membership to say "ok! as long as you think that's
>best!".
> IMO Theosophy will be *much* better off in the long run if
>we can accomplish this difficult shift so long as we have the
>courage to see it through.
> -JRC
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 03:30:57 GMT
From: MK Ramadoss
Subject: Re: By - Laws : a new perspective/approach
Dear John Crocker:
Your message is an excellent and comprehensive response.
I hope it is read by John Algeo and the Board of Directors very very
carefully and closely.
I also hope Wheaton copies it to Radha Burnier and the General Council by
FAX and not by snailmail.
.doss
============================================================================
=====
At 091700 AM 12/27/95 -JRC wrote:
>>From John Mead:
>
>>I recently received an e-mail from Dr. Algeo which suggests that
>>the intent of the changes were to directly conform with requests
>>from the Adyar/Committee.
> Is there some particular reason why this explanation was not
>sent to the general list? Especially since so many have been
>asking for precisely this kind of explanation?
>
>>We seem to be caught up in an argument about the implementation
>>vs. the *intent* of the changes.
> It seems more like the core issue is the *ramifications* of
>the changes and the shift of power towards centralized control
>from HQ that they entail. Both the original intent and the
>details of implementation are both *expressions* of this concern.
>The result of the new by-laws regardless of intent will be a
>further consolidation of power at the HQ level IMO continuing a
>trend that began when HQ began passing by-laws greatly limiting
>who could stand as a candidate for office. The way the proposals
>have been presented for a vote seems to me to contain the same
>attitude contained in the proposals themselves: That HQ knows
>what is best for the membership and the membership ought to just
>agree to be taken care of as HQ sees fit.
>
>>It is clear from e-mail and also snail-mail that we have the
>>following options:
>>1 By-Laws get Ratified and several lodges file suit.
>>2 By-Laws get rejected and we have many within the TSA who do
>>not trust the TSA administration -- which is not good for
>>anyone/organization. law-suits would probably follow too
> Yes and the lack of trust in a membership almost
>*predisposed* to want to trust in the intentions of its officers
>is the direct result of the *behavior of TSA Administrations
>past and present*. **It is the responsibility of the TSA
>Administration to regain that trust** ... most especially if it
>wants the membership to actually give it more power. The
>Administration IMO has mistaken the silence of many members for
>contentment with policy. It had better understand that there is
>significant discontent among the ranks and the current by-law
>fiasco is not the only problem but is more like a final straw
>that caused normally quiet voices to speak up. The Bing
>situation for instance appeared to many to signify the
>willingness of HQ to use its power in an arbitrary and personal
>way to look like a particular faction that had been used to
>choosing leaders felt free to even possibly pass by-laws with the
>intention of keeping a "non-chosen" out of office ... and it is
>then surprised when the membership reacts to its desire for
>*more* power?
>
>>we need new options:
>>1 we need to allow TSA to gracefully extend the election. This
>>means that they can extend it *without* blame -- i.e. backing
>>off can SEEM like a defeat and be embarrassing. I think that
>>they can decide to postpone elections in a manner which
>>signifies a *responsive presidency/board* decision which we
>>should ACCEPT as an HONEST effort to allow a larger window of
>>discussion. We need to allow for misunderstandings and
>>communication problems as *honest* problems due to the current
>>communication networks. NOT as personal attacks against certain
>>brothers/sisters within our organization.
> Well here may be the most difficult part of the situation.
>I fear I cannot agree with the sentiment here ... and *my* intent
>also is the long term good of the TSA. The TSA Administration
>for whatever its reasons kept virtually secret until the very
>last moment when it was almost too late to do anything a major
>revision of the laws governing our organization. It then broke
>several of the current laws governing the means by which the
>revisions would be voted upon made absolutely no effort to
>encourage discourse and in fact seemed to attempt to thwart it.
>It also recently not only showed itself willing to use its
>substantial financial clout that it has because of *us* ... past
>and present members who have given money against one of our own
>Lodges but then gave this a spin that impugned the motives and
>accused the character of some Boston Theosophists to justify its
>own position that letter from the attorney posted on theos-l
>but also distributed by HQ with an introduction from JA ... was
>almost pure political smear tactics ... actually implying that
>the Boston members were intending to sell the Lodge and pocket
>the money personally ... and the apology Rich rightly demanded
>has *not* been forthcoming. While I believe the membership would
>*welcome* a *genuinely responsive* presidency/board I do not
>think it healthy to try to figure out how to allow the
>presidency/board to *appear* responsive when it has for some time
>seemed far more responsive to Adyar than to its own membership
>even acted *directly against* some of its own members and only
>now in an effort to mitigate the crisis of legitimacy it has
>itself caused finds itself *forced* to be responsive.
> In short uncomfortable as it is to accept HQ has had no
>qualms about playing political hard-ball to achieve its ends
>without regard to sentiment within the membership and now when
>suddenly it went the final step too far and finds itself besieged
>by a somewhat severe reaction from the membership its ignored it
>cannot suddenly sit back with no penalty to pay. It is reaping
>its own self-generated karma - its current dilemma was *entirely*
>created by its own behavior.
> Why should the membership attempt to help it find a "face-
>saving" way out of its mess? Compassion? A sense of
>"brotherhood"? These things are noble ideals but not when they
>applied in such a way as to inhibit *growth*. Many non-profits
>as they grow and evolve have periodic power grabs at their HQ's
>but in feeling the full force of the *effects* of them
>institutional *growth* happens as for instance in the United
>Way in 94 and the NAACP in 95 ... IMO it will be very *helpful*
>to the TSA Administration to have this current disaster *seared*
>into its institutional memory - for it to understand that if it
>behaves as it has been in the future it is taking a *risk*. We
>*want* future TSA officers and board members to *understand* that
>they serve the *membership* not Adyar or their own particular
>visions that *the Lodges and members do not need them ... they
>need the Lodges and members*; that if they want to operate
>according to the model of the Roman Catholic church with Adyar
>as "Rome" dispensing edicts to the "Archbishops" at Wheaton who
>then adapt them to an obedient membership they will discover
>that American Theosophists will react pretty much like American
>Roman Catholics have been ... with many members leaving and even
>among those who stay formally connected less and less of
>inclination to consider the pronouncements of the hierarchy in
>any way binding on them.
> I don't think Wheaton needs another option they have two:
>1 Simply declare the current vote null and void due to the
>irregularities present in the process as noted in the letter
>from Lodge Presidents or
>2 By a vote of the Board withdraw the current revisions.
> Either one of these *accompanied by an apology to the
>membership and a public declaration that a suitable length of
>time e.g. 01 year for Society-wide discussion would be
>permitted before another vote was called* would probably go a
>long way towards diffusing the temporary crisis ... but I also
>think there is a much longer-term distrust that it will take
>quite some time to make right.
> And finally to address the "personality" issue: I
>understand that we do wish to be nice that we want to keep
>things at the level of legitimate debate about the ideas
>themselves ... but we must remember that it has taken a good
>number of Theosophists expending considerable energy even to
>reach the point where the membership is on the verge of being
>given the time and information necessary to even *allow*
>reasonable debate: HQ had to be *forced* into it ... and it was
>not abstract entities that attempted to do this it was *people*.
>We are talking about the Administration of an organization and
>the behavior of its elected officials; decisions don't just get
>made *people* make them ... and just as organizations grow by
>being held accountable for their actions so too the
>*individuals* who are given the *power* to make decisions must be
>made to bear the *responsibility for its use.*
> I do not know John Algeo personally but *as President* I
>can't help but see the TSA being badly damaged: Tight control has
>been exerted over the AT; membership has declined significantly;
>the Theosophical Trusts have lost considerable equity; and the
>Lodges and membership are now embroiled in a by-laws fiasco that
>at best is taking considerable energy from members who might
>better spend time on Lodge activities and at worst threatens an
>outright schism. John Algeo was groomed for the job by our
>"Bishops" ran for the job and gets paid for doing the job and
>it is not a "personal" attack to say that by every almost
>standard measure that a non-profit might use to assess the job
>performance of its President or Executive Director - membership
>figures financial conditions membership morale accomplishment
>of mission - the TS is in worse shape since he took office.
> [While my own suggestions for by-law changes will be in the
>next post I should mention here that the absurdity of the by-
>laws restricting who can run as candidates show themselves here:
>Time as a member or on the Board simply assures one knows
>Theosophy but for instance deep knowledge of the SD and
>administrative skills *have nothing to do with one another*. In
>the TSA our President acts as Executive Director and I believe
>an examination of whether to split those duties ... i.e. *elect*
>a President with Theosophical "wisdom" and have the Board *hire*
>an Executive Director with demonstrated organizational and
>administrative skills ... is something that ought to be explored
>during "by-law discussions". Running a national non-profit
>organization with 5000 members and close to 05 million in assets
>takes specialized skills and the current by-laws allegedly
>designed as the filters to assure the integrity of the positions
>not only do not even discuss the qualifications *most* needed by
>those who would run the organization but in fact serve to
>significantly restrict a number of TSA members who may be far
>*more* qualified from running for the office.]
>
>>perhaps we need 9-12 months to really get the arguments out
>>in. the open.
> Yes.
>
>>we may find it hard to understand but I do not think they
>>TSA had anticipated the response to this ballot. We need to
>>set up an environment where the devisivness is eliminated. this
>>is necessary to preserve the TSA's integrity and restore
>>people's faith in the elected members.
> The elected members created the environment it is their
>responsibility to make things right. They have lost the faith of
>the membership because of an attitude that has manifested in far
>more than just this current situation; they must IMO *alter
>both the attitude and their actions* to regain that faith. So
>long as I and many I've spoken to feel as though this current
>"openness" on the part of HQ only came about because of the size
>and intensity of the reaction without which HQ would have
>actually ignored a few procedures and just imposed a new set of
>by-laws on the members with barely a fraction of the time needed
>for reasoned discussion ... there will be *suspicions*.
>
>>2 I have received a letter from Dr. Algeo where the intent of
>>the new By-Laws were *requested* by International Adyar.
>>However the wording and implementation were to be determined
>>by the TSA. Hence --- we have an instance where the guidelines
>>were set but the specific implementation needs to have an open
>>discussion esp. between TSA Chapters/Lodges.
> Why has no one else received this letter? Why do we only
>find out now after the ballots have actually already been
>mailed that this is driven by Adyar? What *precisely* did Adyar
>"request"? In what *form* was the request delivered? To what
>degree can Adyar *force* the American Section to implement such
>things? And I don't agree that its just the implementation that
>we must discuss ... its the standing of Adyar to make such
>"requests" that is an issue as well. How much of this is *legal*
>and how much behind-the-scenes tacit agreements? In fact if
>Adyar got too insistent the American Section itself might start
>debating whether it even matters whether it remains formally
>connected to Adyar. This whole situation seems to be surrounded
>by too much secrecy. I'd like to see the US-Adyar relationship
>explicitly articulated ... and if Adyar wants to "request"
>guidelines I'd like to hear them *from Adyar* along with the
>reasons *why* Adyar wants them implemented ... to know for
>instance whether the whole American Section might be forced to
>alter its by-laws as the result of some factional dispute at
>*Adyar* - that seems to have recently gotten into the mood to
>exert control to the point of excommunicating national sections
>that do not behave.
> Regardless the fact that neither Adyar or Wheaton even
>considered that the American membership *ought to be given full
>information* which *to this day* it still does not have about
>the source and reasons for the by-law changes is quite
>disturbing.
>
>>Let us try to fix the system before it is permanently damaged.
> Actually I believe that from a larger view the proper
>paradigm may not be fixing a system before it is permanently
>broken but rather that of understanding that a required if
>painful and upsetting phase shift has been triggered by this
>dispute ... a phase shift needed for the TSA to live beyond its
>foundational generations and stabilize in a form in which its
>greatest service will be in the future rather than in its past:
> We began with *Masters* choosing the leaders who lead by
>something akin to Divine Right. We then had a number of leaders
>Dora the last in America who were elected but whose power and
>standing still came chiefly from having *known* or been connected
>to those who knew the Masters ... power and leadership legitimacy
>has been passed down with something like apostolic succession -
>and the leaderships both at Wheaton and at Adyar have long
>operated almost as though they were running an *occult hierarchy*
>.. and Masters do not *consult* chelas when they make the rules
>of the order they simply make them and chelas have the right to
>either agree or leave the order. We are now perhaps for the
>first time having to face the fundamental contradiction between
>the Master-Chela and Democratic models of organization and IMO
>the leaderships both at Wheaton and Adyar will need to do some
>very deep-level re-examinations of attitudes ... because they are
>no longer considered "Masters" and the memberships are
>increasingly refusing to be their "Chelas". Its likely that the
>leaderships will no longer be able to *demand* anything from
>memberships that they'd better get rid of the attitude that
>voting is just a formality that they can decide what's "best"
>for the membership without even consulting the membership
>without bothering to even give them full information and just
>expect the membership to say "ok! as long as you think that's
>best!".
> IMO Theosophy will be *much* better off in the long run if
>we can accomplish this difficult shift so long as we have the
>courage to see it through.
> -JRC
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 05:30:26 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Opposing forces?
In a general letter to Pasadena TS membership Grace Knoche
asks a question which I feel deserves an answer. While I have
great respect for Grace and appreciate her recent letter
regarding my resignation this question evokes a very emphatic
response. After saying that in recent years American and
European books and articles have "reviled" HPB and Theosophy
making "farfetched" allegations that "besmirch her name and
reputation" Grace asks "is it too farfetched to suggest that
the publication three years ago of Sylvia Cranston's book
HPB... has offended the opposing forces?"
Which invites the response "YES IT IS TOO FARFETCHED!!!"
I dread seeing the spectre of the "Dark Brotherhood" raised in
any Theosophical publication particularly as a way of
dismissing writings about HPB and Theosophy. "Opposing forces"
sounds much like a code-word for the Dark Brotherhood
Mamo-chohans etc. a concept that has been extremely
destructive to Theosophical discourse. Even though from
personal correspondence I gather that Grace wouldn't include my
work among the alleged reactions of the "opposing forces"
others have and do. To suggest that Sylvia Cranston's book is
on the side of the Great White Brotherhood and anything that
takes a less hagiographic look at HPB comes from the "other
side"-- is indeed farfetched.
Two questions that are not asked in the letter but which I
will pursue in a later post are:
1 Who is attacking reviling etc. HPB?
2 Is opposing the portrayal of her found in Cranston's book
tantamount to being an enemy of Theosophy?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: 27 Dec 1996 05:30:26 GMT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"