How can you tell if a remington shotgun has a damascus barrel

I have an old Remington double barrel shotgun, the serial # is 218699. From what I've been able to figure that means its a model 1899. What i can't figure out is if it has damascus barrels or not, I have read that its not advisable to fire modern ammunition in an old shotgun with damascus barrels, and I would like to use this one to hunt with.

I can't see any spirals in the barrels, and there isn't any fancy designs on the barrels like some with damascus barrels have. On the side of the breech it says "Remington Arms Company" . It has hammers. On the underside of the barrels there are some letters , I'm not sure what they mean, ther is the letter "G" on each barrel, with an arrow pointing up from each "G" to a crude looking "P" or "D". There is also the number 712 stamped under on of the barrels. It doesn't have auto-ejectors. On the barrel lugs there is the numbers 40 and 43, I understand these numbers have to do with shot pattern, on another lug there is the number 89.

Also under the breech, when you break open the gun, there are the numbers 112, and 681.

This is all I can tell you about it, I hope you can tell me if it has damascus barrels or not, I guess in 1899 Remington made some shotguns with damascus barrels and some without.

Best idea is to keep it as a wall hanger. To add to the confusion, some companies made shotguns with an imitation damascus design on the barrels. Mine is marked "fluid steel". Since there are shotguns that are newer and better made, it's just in the gun safe . For kicks, I once loaded some shells with black powder and used it at a practice trap shoot! Worked very well and brought several comments.

If in doubt, bring to a gunsmith before firing. You can possibly remove the forearm and clean a bit of the normally hidden surface and examine; I also understend that there is a test involving treating a small surface area with acid to reveal the steel patterns can be done; but that is beyond me.

To safely shoot the gun you can have a set of sub caliber tubes made to fit the gun if you want to shoot it that badly.

The chambers will be too short for 2 3/4 shells. Its most likely chambered for 2 1/2 or 2 5/8 shells. 2 3/4 will fit just fine but when fired the crimp will open up over the forcing cone and will raise pressure a good bit.

Definitely get it to a reputable gunsmith. If you fire a modern smokeless load in a damascus steel barrel it will unravel just like in the cartoons when elmer fudd shoots his shotgun after bugs stuffed a carrot in the muzzle.. kaboomsproiiing... daaammmmiiiiittt! will be your reaction.

That said if it is damascus and its in good shape.. no reason you cant hunt with it. just have to use BP shotshells. easy enough if you reload your own. if not Black Dawge makes BP shotshells for cowboy action and old hunting shotguns.

I have seen them unwind. they start to come apart where the windings are hammered together. and they always do it with smokeless loads. For the most part there isnt anything commercially available that is safe to shoot in a damascus barreled shotgun. youd have to load your own and use very light loads.

I am confused. I can't find any Model 1899. There is a Model 1889, which was Remington's last hammer double gun, but I didn't think any Remington double went that high in serial number, even combined*.

One thing I have noticed about Remington shotguns with Damascus barrels, there is no doubt they are Damascus. Remington didn't try to cover up or fake Damascus, the pattern is both pretty and obvious. (And yes, they did put the word "Remington" into the pattern on the best guns!)

But you should be aware that that gun probably has 2 1/2" chambers, so modern 2 3/4" shells are ruled out.

*Edited to correct an error in the first paragraph. I confused serial numbers with production amounts. Remington Model 1889 went from serial number c. 24000 to c. 265000. The confusion is because the numbers, starting with the 1889 model are not really in series. Here is a breakdown of serial numbers
.

But that does not equate to numbers produced. With the 1883, they apparently decided to begin serial numbers with "1" and use 5 digits. So the first 1883 was serial number 14000. They continured that way to sometime in the 1889 series when they decided to have that series start with "2" and. to avoid duplication, go with six digit numbers. So they did not make 241,000 Model 1889's, they made 41,000. Then they went to the Model 1894 and decided to start with "1" again, but use six digits. Then they went to the Model 1900 and decided to start with "3" and use six digits. So they didn't make 395,000 Model 1900s, they made 95,000. All clear now?

"I have seen them unwind. they start to come apart where the windings are hammered together. and they always do it with smokeless loads. For the most part there isnt anything commercially available that is safe to shoot in a damascus barreled shotgun. youd have to load your own and use very light loads."

That contend that assertion, Brother JLA, is pure and absolute BS, although I will make this public commitment to you; you post a pic here of an "unwound" Damascus or Twist Steel barrel tube and you can rest assured that you will receive a public apology, and yours truly will become a believer!
When a fluid steel barrel bursts, it typically splits; the split will most often be parallel, or in line with the barrel tube. When a Damascus or Twist barrel tube bursts, the break will run along a weld joint when the bands of iron and steel ribands are hammer forged together. As regards shooting Damascus barrels, more BS; as thousands of Damascus and Twist barrel vintage double guns are used for hunting and sporting clays events every day. The KEYS to safely shooting a Damascus barreled gun is 1) have the gun thoroughly inspected by a gunsmith skilled in the repair and maintenance of vintage double shotguns; and 2) use shells loaded to the same period pressures these vintage guns were designed and built to be used with. As regards point 1, if your gunsmith finds your barrels to be in good condition and not honed out so that barrel wall thicknesses remain within proper tolerances; they are safe to shoot with proper loads. As to point 2, there are a number of shell companies loading smokeless powder/plastic cased shells to period correct chamber lengths, and in a variety of gauges that are designed for vintage guns such as yours. Some of these companies are Polywad, RST, and Gamebore; but we now have reloading manuals with low pressure shell loadings (8,000PSI and less), and most people I know shooting these vintage guns are hand-loaders.
As to the strength of the high quality Damascus barrel steel used on vintage double guns manufactured by our great American makers; one will be amazed at the amount of abuse these tubes will absorb (this statement does not apply to the cheap European double gun imports marketed and sold during the same period). And for the doubters here, I suggest you check out past issues of the Double Gun Journal and read for yourselves the experimental research conducted by Sherman Bell. Sherman used a wide variety of vintage American double guns (to include the Rem Model 1889) as subject test guns, and experienced not a single burst barrel with any of these vintage gun tested in spite of the fact that most of these test guns were in very poor condition; and many had very rough and badly pitted Damascus barrels. But regardless of how these old warriors had been used and abused in their hundred plus years, they digested modern proof load after modern proof load; and further, no shell chambers were lengthened for purposes of this testing. I also have close relationships with two gunsmiths specializing in vintage double guns; and both have tried to blow Damascus barrels with HEAVY over loads. Bottom line, if the barrel retains its integrity; and unless the barrel is obstructed, one will be amazed at how much it actually takes to destroy/blow a Damascus barrel tube.
As to Remington serial number ranges Brother Jim; for the Model 1889 hammer gun serial number blocks, there were two; the first ran from number 1 up to the 150 or 160,000; and the second block began at serial number 200,000. The Model 1894 hammerless gun serial number block began at 100,000; and the Model 1900 hammerless serial number block began at 300,000. I suggest you acquire a copy of Charles Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns" for more information.

Permit me a couple of comments. First, I agree that GOOD QUALITY Damascus barrels, well maintained and checked out by an expert, will PROBABLY be safe to shoot with ammunition of the same pressure level they were designed for.

But I think making that a general statement does not take into enough consideration the tendency of corrosion from old primers and black powder residue to work its way, under pressure, into the interstices in the barrel. The fact is that while the barrel may have been designed and made in 1890 to handle 8000 psi safely, the BARREL is NOT the same as it was in 1890.

Further, the trouble with saying that some Damascus barrel guns are safe is that a lot of people will read it as saying that Damascus barrels are safe, and the supposed danger is a myth. Yes, I have read and heard exactly that; one "gunsmith" told me that a Damascus barrel was stronger than any modern steel barrel ever made!!

I have sectioned some Damascus barrels that looked good on the outside, had nice shiny bores, but were like orange lace inside; the rust was the only thing holding them together. For that reason, I will always advise against shooting those guns, with any powder or any load.

I have never seen a Damascus barrel "unwind", though one may crack at a "ring" when it lets go. They don't stretch or peel as modern steel does; they break. All the blown up Damascus barrels I have seen had chunks blown out of them, one or two at the chamber, but most at the point where the barrel thins down, at about the front of the forearm, or where the shooter's fingers normally are placed. I have seen two injuries - one shooter lost three fingers, the other, fortunately, received only a scratch on his palm. Both, be it noted, were firing modern smokeless powder loads, which the former had been warmed (by me) not to do.

On the Remington serial numbers, I would with all respect have to question the Model 1889 numbers. Starting with 1 to c. 150/160k, then going from 200k to c. 265k, would mean a total production of the 1889 of 215/225k, a figure that just seems way too high, about the same number as the common Colt 1851 Navy, and well out of line with previous and future model sales.

I thank you for the book suggestion; I don't have it, but will get hold of one when I see it.

Gentlemen, I am on the side of caution, I have not seen a damascus barrel fail and I damn well do not intend to shoot one (with any loads) and try my luck.
There are too many other shotguns I can fire safely. It may well be that they are safe to shoot, but, I would NOT recommend it to anyone.

One facet that you both seem to have missed is quite important; the use of corrosive primed ammo was quite common "back in the day" as it was the only ammo made. Using this ammo and POSSIBLY not cleaning the gun well can most certainly encourage rust to form along the seams in a damascus barrel. In addition to this should you add 100 years of time for any additional deterioration or oxidation; regardless of initial strength, you have a thin metal tube of now unknown strength. Rifles do not concern me as they have a much higher (excess) strength to begin with, shotguns have less redundant strength.

Do what you want, I would highly recommend "tubes" in a damascus barrel and shooting smaller guage rounds.

It is often mentioned that those barrels passed proof and therefore are OK. (There are no proof laws in the U.S., but the top makers - like Remington - did and do prove their guns.) But the barrel that passed proof in 1890 is unlikely to be in the same condition today.

Even if some Damascus barrels do stand up to proof loads (I presume with old-time proof pressures), that does not mean an identical barrel made at the same time - or even the one on the other side of the gun - will also stand proof. There are just too many unknowns in dealing with those old guns.

"I have seen them unwind. they start to come apart where the windings are hammered together. and they always do it with smokeless loads. For the most part there isnt anything commercially available that is safe to shoot in a damascus barreled shotgun. youd have to load your own and use very light loads."

That contend that assertion, Brother JLA, is pure and absolute BS, although I will make this public commitment to you; you post a pic here of an "unwound" Damascus or Twist Steel barrel tube and you can rest assured that you will receive a public apology, and yours truly will become a believer!
When a fluid steel barrel bursts, it typically splits; the split will most often be parallel, or in line with the barrel tube. When a Damascus or Twist barrel tube bursts, the break will run along a weld joint when the bands of iron and steel ribands are hammer forged together. As regards shooting Damascus barrels, more BS; as thousands of Damascus and Twist barrel vintage double guns are used for hunting and sporting clays events every day. The KEYS to safely shooting a Damascus barreled gun is 1) have the gun thoroughly inspected by a gunsmith skilled in the repair and maintenance of vintage double shotguns; and 2) use shells loaded to the same period pressures these vintage guns were designed and built to be used with. As regards point 1, if your gunsmith finds your barrels to be in good condition and not honed out so that barrel wall thicknesses remain within proper tolerances; they are safe to shoot with proper loads. As to point 2, there are a number of shell companies loading smokeless powder/plastic cased shells to period correct chamber lengths, and in a variety of gauges that are designed for vintage guns such as yours. Some of these companies are Polywad, RST, and Gamebore; but we now have reloading manuals with low pressure shell loadings (8,000PSI and less), and most people I know shooting these vintage guns are hand-loaders.
As to the strength of the high quality Damascus barrel steel used on vintage double guns manufactured by our great American makers; one will be amazed at the amount of abuse these tubes will absorb (this statement does not apply to the cheap European double gun imports marketed and sold during the same period). And for the doubters here, I suggest you check out past issues of the Double Gun Journal and read for yourselves the experimental research conducted by Sherman Bell. Sherman used a wide variety of vintage American double guns (to include the Rem Model 1889) as subject test guns, and experienced not a single burst barrel with any of these vintage gun tested in spite of the fact that most of these test guns were in very poor condition; and many had very rough and badly pitted Damascus barrels. But regardless of how these old warriors had been used and abused in their hundred plus years, they digested modern proof load after modern proof load; and further, no shell chambers were lengthened for purposes of this testing. I also have close relationships with two gunsmiths specializing in vintage double guns; and both have tried to blow Damascus barrels with HEAVY over loads. Bottom line, if the barrel retains its integrity; and unless the barrel is obstructed, one will be amazed at how much it actually takes to destroy/blow a Damascus barrel tube.
As to Remington serial number ranges Brother Jim; for the Model 1889 hammer gun serial number blocks, there were two; the first ran from number 1 up to the 150 or 160,000; and the second block began at serial number 200,000. The Model 1894 hammerless gun serial number block began at 100,000; and the Model 1900 hammerless serial number block began at 300,000. I suggest you acquire a copy of Charles Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns" for more information.

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I suppose you are off the hook then Mr Archer. I do not want or need your public apology bad enough to try to blow up a perfectly good damascus shotgun to prove my point. If the work performed by your gunsmith friends is worth staking your life on then more power to you. But it is my opinion, based on my own experiences, that damascus barrels can and will come apart with higher pressure smokeless loads. Have i done it personally? No because I know better.. Have i seen it personally? yes. customer brought me a shotgun with twist steel barrels and both barrels were coming unwound just ahead of the chamber. So much so you could see light all the way around when you put a bore light in the breech ends. And no i didnt take pics. I politely told the guy his barrels were ruined and there was nothing I could do for him. He had been shooting the Aguila short buckshot loads in it.

Besides. The comments you post here are read by thousands of folks everyday. I couldnt sleep at night knowing I gave such ill advice on a public forum. even insenuating a damascus barrel is ok to shoot with modern shotshells is very bad advice in my opinion. Somebody is liable to come along and read that, thinking you might know what youre talking about, and try to shoot a turkey load in thier great grandads damascus double and get themselves hurt. Are you OK with that?

To put it simple, why take the risk? There are plenty of ordnance steel shotguns that can be had very cheap off the used rack at just about any gunshop. and they wont come apart with any load short of your brother-in-laws reloads..

You guys need to get out more often; and certainly need to expand your knowledge base on vintage American double guns!
First of all, I never recommended to anyone that they fire a Damascus barreled shotgun; but with a proper re-reading of my post one will discover that I propose that Damascus barreled shotguns COULD BE SAFELY FIRED UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IF SPECIFIC PRECAUTIONS WERE OBSERVED to include 1) a thorough inspection of the gun and barrels by a gunsmith fluent in the repair and restoration of vintage double guns; and 2) shells were limited to only those loaded to period correct pressures and correct chamber lengths. Now Please tell me what rules of common sense or safety I have violated with these two suggestions?
I further sited an in depth study conducted by a noted researcher in his effort to determine the strength of vintage Damascus and Twist steel barrels; a study conducted using beaten and battered vintage double guns from America's finest makers (to include Parker, Smith, Lefever, and Remington). Every one of these guns had suffered serious neglect and all had badly pitted and eroded barrel tubes that were the result of not cleaning after untold thousands of rounds fired with corrosive primers. Some examples had very thick tubes and some had very thin tubes; and all eventually suffered some degree of damage from shooting those heavy proof loads to include stock splitting and gaping at the breech; but not a single tube burst or split during the experiments. I and others have researched vintage high quality American double guns for decades; and what most folks don't realize is that some American double gun makers continued to make Damascus barreled guns into the 1930's, decades after the advent of smokeless powder and the higher pressures generated by same. And what most American shooters don't realize is that thousands and thousands of Damascus guns are still used and highly sought in Europe where these guns are sent to proof houses and proofed with modern loads, then certified as "in proof" for the loads specified with which the gun was proved. And guess what? These Damascus tubes were proved for modern loads; not the period loads I suggested in my original post. And guess what else? Why these Damascus barrel tubes are at least 100 or more years old, just as those Damascus tubes would be on a vintage American Parker, Smith, etc gun because Damascus barrels haven't been manufactured since WWI. And guess where our American gun makers got their Twist and Damascus barrel tubes? Well, we didn't make them here; we imported them from Belgium (mostly) and England. In America we did not have a government run proof house as do the English and Europeans; so each maker did his own proofing of the Damascus, Twist, and steel tubes used on their gun to accepted gun industry standards; and they all used a proof standard load generating 18,000 plus PSI? Why? Because 1) they guaranteed their barrels against failure, and 2) they could not afford the bad reputation that would come from using cheap barrel tubes. For all practical purposes, the American double gun industry died with the great depression, and was completely gone by 1950; but the dirty little secret is that the makers of the more modern semi-auto and pump action guns were more than happy to insinuate that Damascus and Twist barrel tubes were unsafe, as by implying vintage guns were unsafe they created a reason for sportsmen to purchase new guns!
I also stated in my original post that those who shoot vintage double guns with Damascus and Twist barrels shoot guns by makers considered HIGH QUALITY makers; and that the information I was providing was intended for guns by those makers (to include Remington), and was NOT intended to apply to cheap European imported double guns being sold for $7-9 per copy by Sears and period hardware stores. There was a reason that the least expensive LC Smith Twist barreled hammer gun sold at $20 retail in 1900, and a cheap Damascus barreled Belgium double could be purchased from Sears for $7; and that difference was primarily in the quality of barrel steel used, because the barrels of a vintage double gun was the most expensive component of the gun (typically 50% of its total cost). As for me personally I shoot sporting clays, skeet; and have bagged all manner of game with vintage American and English Damascus barreled guns. I use period correct shells and I've never had the first problem. For those who are unaware, there are a number of vintage gun associations such as the LC Smith Collectors Association, the Lefever Gun Collectors Association, the Parker Gun Collectors Association, the Remington Collectors Association, and others who host vintage gun clays competitions, game bird hunts, etc; and one not familiar with these organizations would be amazed at the numbers of Damascus barreled guns seen and used in these events. One event that I attend every year is the Southern Side x Side held at the Deep River Shooting School in Sanford, NC; hundreds of vintage Damascus double guns are used there every year with not a single mishap. In my 62 years, the only double gun I ever witnessed blow was equipped with fluid steel barrels. These were very sound barrels but had an obstruction in the left tube just past the tip of the forend; the resulting explosion vaporized a significant portion of the shooter's left hand and relocated his thumb so that it was pointing at his nose. So to anyone who cares enough to read my comments; and further, read them thoroughly and actually "hear" and understand the points I make; let me clearly state/restate my positions:

1) I never suggested that anyone shoot a Damascus, or Twist barreled gun; nor do I advocate that anyone subject himself to such "risks", and that suggestion especially applies to anyone who has a real fear that his Damascus barrel will actually explode. After all, how could anyone shoot such a gun well when he'd be ducking and counting fingers after every shot?
2) I did state that Twist and Damascus barreled guns can be safely fired AFTER observing certain precautions to include the use of period correct shells as noted above. ANYONE not observing my suggested precautions is an idiot.
3) I do shoot Damascus and Twist barreled guns myself, but only after observing the precautions I have described; and associate and shoot such guns with dozens of like minded collectors and shooters. But I do not advocate that anyone follow my personal example based on my experience. Anyone considering such action should do so only after conducting his own personal research; and at his own risk, although a shooter always risks a barrel rupture with ANY gun to some unknown degree be that gun new or old.
4) I made my post here, and shared the information I shared here only because readers of this forum need to understand that there is far more misinformation being disseminated regarding high quality Twist and Damascus steel barrel tubes than information that is factual.