Engineering suffers from an image problem. People believe that engineers simply fix things, but we don't: we invent things. Unfortunately the false image is propagated by hundreds of companies out there who term repair-persons and equipment installers 'Engineers'. Engineering suffers from a lack of graduates, and at a time people are looking to manufacturing to fix the economy we need all the graduates we can get. Sadly they are put off by the false image of engineering. It is thus proposed that the title 'Engineer' is protected legally, like 'Doctor' or 'Architect'. It would be restricted to those who are professional engineers or product designers, or those who have retired from the industry.

I would say that the only ones with ego problems are the ones who feel it necessary to compansate for something by inflating their own job title to make seem like they are something more than they actually are.

I have some far far more competent (non degree holding) guys working for me now than when I worked at a very very large M&E consultantcy. They certainly deserve the term engineer far more than the degreed up ego maniacs who didn't have a clue how a building and it's associated systems actually works.
The job title hasn't been inflated, it's always applied. It's now being railroaded by insecure protectionist elitist with oversized egos and sense of exactly what they're capable of.

I'm right behind this. The term should be restricted to those who have professional registration.

This is the point I think. Professional registration through a known body means you have to have met certain criteria accepted as a standard by industry. Engineers are engineers, technicians are technicians. The difference isn't blurry though one may take on the others role at times if needed. It provides clear understanding to anyone you engage with that you've met a standard and can classify yourself as someone who can do the job properly, unlike joe bloggs down the road who's a handyman that fixes washing machines and calls himself an engineer.

It has a good point, but it's bound to rub salt in some wounds. The germans have such a system and it works well.

IMO It's all part of the British (English?) anti-intellectualism

Precisely, it's not cool to be qualified or respected, better to be joe bloggs in a back street putting lives at risk.

Too right. You should be valued by what you achieve not by spending years avoiding doing anything useful and getting a piece of paper.

But that's nonsense in reality. While there's plenty of useless people qualified (and that's down to the quality of eng courses, and a byproduct of reducing quality of A levels etc) there's also useless folk with years of experience who are useless and know sweet FA but think they do.

And FWIW, plenty of students and post-grads do very useful work that feeds into or is part of larger scale research projects, but only the blinkered (or those from pointless degrees) would not realise this.

Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

and when something goes wrong and people are killed, guess which one ends up in court.

Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

A heating contractor with 20 years experience may be able to tackle a heating problem very well, he may even be able to tackle a refridgeration project. A properly qualified and registered engineer will generally be able to attack any project in his rough field (mech, elec, materials) with good technique, understanding of the theory and application and knowledge of the risks, as well deal with the budgetary issues of a large project, and manage the team of people etc. You're comparing someone who has 20 years experience with someone who walks out of their last degree exam, which is stupidity.

My father in law calls himself engineer. He isn't the brightest and can't do maths or write well - he worked as a turner (lathe operator). This is a common abuse of the term.

You don't put a sticky plaster on a kids knee and hence become a medical doctor........

The technicians where I work consider themselves technicians and are very protective of the term (with as much gusto as engineers!). They'll actively point out that they don't have the skills to calculate what's required or design an experiment for X Y or Z, but they'll laugh at you if you put something impossible to machine in front of them, and often help in the design process by feeding back what's easy to make and what's going to take them weeks. They ask us not to be technicians and to leave the making to them as they can do it properly Which is fair enough. It seems in the UK if you can put stuff together and are no better than experienced DIY standard, you feel you should be called an engineer as technician or some other term isn't good enough for you. Funny.

But that's nonsense in reality. While there's plenty of useless people qualified (and that's down to the quality of eng courses, and a byproduct of reducing quality of A levels etc) there's also useless folk with years of experience who are useless and know sweet FA but think they do.

Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

And, we don't doubt that he can fit a central heating system better than me, no more than Tracey Emin can poo on a tent and call it art better than me, it still makes her an artist, me an engineer and the plumber a plumber.

My neighbour was a Boilermaker/Welder, and calls himself an 'Engineer'. However, he lacks knowledge of basic engineering principles, physics and chemistry, and I'd have him down as a fabricator rather than an 'engineer'. He isn't happy that he isn't actually considered an 'engineer' by current industry standards, and I think he used the term to enhance his professional status somewhat, but he's certainly not someone who could be employed for many actual engineering tasks. You should see the shelves he put up in the lobby; they're shit.

And he makes a crap cup of tea. Definitely not an Engineer, as he lacks the fundamental skill that qualifies you as one.

Getting qualified, with a good degree standard, IS impressive as it provides the theoretical basis on which work is grounded. Those who attack things from an intuition level and experience are nothing more than people who've put in some time. Most engineering students work 40-50 hour weeks minimum for their time at Uni (if they're not their course isn't up to scratch) and are putting in just as many hours and just as hard a time as those who've been out "in the field" as it were.
But the point is that what is being argued here is that only those who are professional engineers (i.e. those registered with professional bodies) can call themselves engineers, not those qualified with a degree in it - there's a difference.

The thing is being an engineer requires the knowledge and method of thinking you get from the degree, being a technician requires stuff you can learn on the job. What you're confusing here is jobs that are effectively advanced technicians posts with engineers posts, which are often mis-labelled for reasons of making the job title sound better.

Bearly, you were only let into the "group" grudgingly only kidding. Incidentally most electronics specialists have a LOT of programming experience - plenty switch between electronics and software with ease, and the opposite is true.

As, I said - clearly no idea about what professional registration requires - or is about.

It IS ABSOLUTELY NOT about sudying for a degree and passing exams, although you need to do that first off....

Gaining professional registration is about gaining relevant professional (on the job) experience. It is about receiving structured training and career development, under the mentorship of a senior colleague. It is about developing, and practicing,your professional skills - and above all, it is about understanding your responsibilities...

Actually has almost NOTHING to do with studying an academic subject and passing exams. It is ALL ABOUT demonstrating your competence and profesional judgement within the field in which you work

It may not impress you, but it took me 6 years to feel I knew enough after uni to apply to get chartered, and it took a further year of report writing interviews and culminated in a 7 1/2hr exam with a pass rate of 30-40%, all outside of work (ie working weekends etc), so I am proud to use CEng. It was bloody hard work!

Well I learnt more about theory (in my field) during my vocational training than I did through my degree.
If you think that a high standard engineer has no understanding of how a system works, you're mistaken. A high standard refrigeration engineer will smash a Beng Mechanical designers knowledge of refrigeration (design, service, theory etc) into the water. This really is a fact.
The M&E consultants have a phrase for anything they can't do. It's called "design and build".
Maybe there is a broader abuse of the term engineer such as triggers "environmental engineer" but to say that the term belongs to designers is plain wrong.
I shouldn't get so defensive as there's no chance of it ever happening anyway.
Oh and a bloke I work with has loads of post nominals (memberships etc) no degree. He's no better or worse than anyone else I work with.