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How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I have a few scenarios that I'm interested in running through. If I'm faced with ridiculously obvious one strike attacks with compliant attackers, I feel comfortable that I can handle them. But when it comes to someone blitzing straight down the line throwing straight punches, windmills, looping punches, etc., what are some appropriate responses?

Would you time the next attack and hopefully tenkan out of the way? Would you irimi with a good strike and then attempt a throw / lock? Please share your experiences or drills you've tried. I'm interested in transitioning from traditional attacks to more modern and realistic attacks.

Also, on a different note, how essential do you think atemi is in a street fight? Especially with this kind of aggressive attack. Would you use it merely as a distraction, a set-up, or a fight ender alone?

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

If you can time the attack to do something than that assumes you have a great deal of control of the situation. Of course you would do something like tenkan or irimi.

The problem with reality is that you may not have that amount of control. Chances are you don't. so you are managing a very difficult situation where you are trying to not lose ground, manage the fight and turn it around in your favor.

In a empty hand or even knife range it becomes all about the clinch...which fundamentally is exactly the same principles you employ in irimi tenkan, iriminage and a multitude of other attacks that we tradtionally practice in aikido.

The problem in a real fight is not that what you learn in aikido is wrong or will not work...it just that you will typically practice at a perfect range that is maintained cooperatively by both participants. In reality that range and distance is closed down very closely because you each of you wants to impose your will on the other and therefore you get close and very intimate very quickly!

My advice is to learn the clinch and to practice it. After you get the hang of the basics, you I believe you will begin to see things you have learned in aikido popping out of the clinch...albeit maybe it does not look or feel quite the same but principles and basics are there.

The clinch is the best place to start if you want to transition from traditional attacks to more realistic attacks.

How essential is atemi in a street fight? very essential. However it is secondary to control. You can't effectively do much if you are not dominating or controlling the fight. Atemi is useful to disrupt your opponents game plan if you are losing or behind in the OODA loop. It can create distance, space and opportunities for you to regain ground/control. Once you are in control it is useful to maintain control or to submit your opponent to a condition where he is no longer a threat. Watch any UFC for the stages of a fight and you can find many good examples of how atemi is used in conjunction with both the losing side of the fight and the dominate side of the fight.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

If you can time the attack to do something than that assumes you have a great deal of control of the situation. Of course you would do something like tenkan or irimi.

The problem with reality is that you may not have that amount of control. Chances are you don't. so you are managing a very difficult situation where you are trying to not lose ground, manage the fight and turn it around in your favor.

In a empty hand or even knife range it becomes all about the clinch...which fundamentally is exactly the same principles you employ in irimi tenkan, iriminage and a multitude of other attacks that we tradtionally practice in aikido.

The problem in a real fight is not that what you learn in aikido is wrong or will not work...it just that you will typically practice at a perfect range that is maintained cooperatively by both participants. In reality that range and distance is closed down very closely because you each of you wants to impose your will on the other and therefore you get close and very intimate very quickly!

My advice is to learn the clinch and to practice it. After you get the hang of the basics, you I believe you will begin to see things you have learned in aikido popping out of the clinch...albeit maybe it does not look or feel quite the same but principles and basics are there.

The clinch is the best place to start if you want to transition from traditional attacks to more realistic attacks.

How essential is atemi in a street fight? very essential. However it is secondary to control. You can't effectively do much if you are not dominating or controlling the fight. Atemi is useful to disrupt your opponents game plan if you are losing or behind in the OODA loop. It can create distance, space and opportunities for you to regain ground/control. Once you are in control it is useful to maintain control or to submit your opponent to a condition where he is no longer a threat. Watch any UFC for the stages of a fight and you can find many good examples of how atemi is used in conjunction with both the losing side of the fight and the dominate side of the fight.

I like that you brought up the clinch. In doing Muay Thai, some BJJ, and other grappling styles, I've found the clinch to be quite useful but once in it, how do you use Aikido? Personally, I'll throw knees all day but that's not exactly Aikido. Maybe a knee to the groin, then a throw followed afterwards but more than likely, unless you strike FIRST in the clinch, it's going to be a wrestling match. Especially with someone who has no martial training. So what are some specific techniques you could employ in the clinch, in your opinion?

I do believe, though, that Aikido is somewhat of a clinching art. Most just don't realize that when you do close that distance into the clinch, it will become a grappling match. Not a one-sided, kokyunage throw.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Logan Light wrote:

I like that you brought up the clinch. In doing Muay Thai, some BJJ, and other grappling styles, I've found the clinch to be quite useful but once in it, how do you use Aikido? Personally, I'll throw knees all day but that's not exactly Aikido. Maybe a knee to the groin, then a throw followed afterwards but more than likely, unless you strike FIRST in the clinch, it's going to be a wrestling match. Especially with someone who has no martial training. So what are some specific techniques you could employ in the clinch, in your opinion?

I do believe, though, that Aikido is somewhat of a clinching art. Most just don't realize that when you do close that distance into the clinch, it will become a grappling match. Not a one-sided, kokyunage throw.

I don't view aikido as a technique based practice, but a principle based one...so maybe that is a difference in our perspectives.

AIkido is based on Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu by nature is a grappling art. The concept of irimi is prevalent in the clinch. You can also see the concept and principles found in Ikkyo in the clinch. If you do the clinch correctly you will get high under the arms of your opponent. Using your body correctly you can use the same principles found in Ikkyo to off balance your opponent and do a takedown or throw.

If you look at the internal principles of aiki, feeling your opponent, reducing proprioceptions, getting under your opponents weight are all there.

As far as the wrestling match goes...with someone of a lesser skill set than I...there is not too much of a wrestling match for me once I gain control of him, I can usually move him around quite freely without much of a struggle, at least on my part. He can spaz and wrestle all he wants to!

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Logan Light wrote:

I have a few scenarios that I'm interested in running through. If I'm faced with ridiculously obvious one strike attacks with compliant attackers, I feel comfortable that I can handle them. But when it comes to someone blitzing straight down the line throwing straight punches, windmills, looping punches, etc., what are some appropriate responses?

Would you time the next attack and hopefully tenkan out of the way? Would you irimi with a good strike and then attempt a throw / lock? Please share your experiences or drills you've tried. I'm interested in transitioning from traditional attacks to more modern and realistic attacks.

Also, on a different note, how essential do you think atemi is in a street fight? Especially with this kind of aggressive attack. Would you use it merely as a distraction, a set-up, or a fight ender alone?

Hi Logan,
Responses you ask?Heres some for starters, Run like hell,kick the guy in the crown jewels, hit him with a 4by 2, bottle, brick or baseball bat.Break his knee joints.Forget the fancy dan stuff, just do your best to take out the person asap.As far as atemi is concerned, the no nonsence approach is the best.Any encounter is usually over in the first few minutes.No John Watne.Steven Seagal crap.Joe.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

I don't view aikido as a technique based practice, but a principle based one...so maybe that is a difference in our perspectives.

AIkido is based on Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu by nature is a grappling art. The concept of irimi is prevalent in the clinch. You can also see the concept and principles found in Ikkyo in the clinch. If you do the clinch correctly you will get high under the arms of your opponent. Using your body correctly you can use the same principles found in Ikkyo to off balance your opponent and do a takedown or throw.

If you look at the internal principles of aiki, feeling your opponent, reducing proprioceptions, getting under your opponents weight are all there.

As far as the wrestling match goes...with someone of a lesser skill set than I...there is not too much of a wrestling match for me once I gain control of him, I can usually move him around quite freely without much of a struggle, at least on my part. He can spaz and wrestle all he wants to!

I like that you said that you view Aikido as a principle based art. I agree. If the principles are applied correctly and decisively, it can be an extremely effective art. Too many people take literal techniques and think they'll work them out in a random fight. Not to say that it's impossible because I know it's not but c'mon. Trying an ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc., in the middle of someone swinging on you? I have my doubts.

And if you were to go up against someone who did, say, wrestling. How would you approach it. Sometimes you can't control someone merely by moving around them, especially if they know how to grapple. It's gonna turn into a wrestling match at some point.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:

Hi Logan,
Responses you ask?Heres some for starters, Run like hell,kick the guy in the crown jewels, hit him with a 4by 2, bottle, brick or baseball bat.Break his knee joints.Forget the fancy dan stuff, just do your best to take out the person asap.As far as atemi is concerned, the no nonsence approach is the best.Any encounter is usually over in the first few minutes.No John Watne.Steven Seagal crap.Joe.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:

.As far as atemi is concerned, the no nonsence approach is the best.Any encounter is usually over in the first few minutes.No John Watne.Steven Seagal crap.Joe.

I like this. Some great street fighting advice I once got was, "Always get the first punch. It's usually the only clean shot in the fight." It does tend to digress into a grabastic wrestling match after that. But there are wristlocks that work well at those ranges, if you can keep from getting hit while you're sinking them.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Logan Light wrote:

Quote:

And if you were to go up against someone who did, say, wrestling. How would you approach it. Sometimes you can't control someone merely by moving around them, especially if they know how to grapple. It's gonna turn into a wrestling match at some point.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote:

I like this. Some great street fighting advice I once got was, "Always get the first punch. It's usually the only clean shot in the fight." It does tend to digress into a grabastic wrestling match after that. But there are wristlocks that work well at those ranges, if you can keep from getting hit while you're sinking them.

Getting the first punch in is a fine strategy sometimes for sure.

However, pre-emption can be a dicey road. I think there is a very fine line in the decision cycle. I am all about getting the first punch in if I can or have to. But...damn...there is that whole escalation of force, use of force, and liability thing we have to deal with.

You can always go with the "I hit him cause I felt physically threatened and his violence was impending so I defended myself"

many times though if we are the "beta" to his "alpha"...meaning we are not the guy going around starting the fight...then by the time we process what is going on...it is too late to get that first strike in.

Then what?

I think the answer we are skirting around here is that you need to practice all ranges of combat. Striking, weapons, grappling etc.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Well, just fwiw I think you should read most of Kevin's stuff here very carefully. I agree completely with what he's talking about. Then again I had a background in Judo and JJ prior to starting aikido. Even spent some time learning a bit of boxing and karate. Frankly I came to Aikido finding that what I learned there was complimentary and "expanded" my toolbox. Or maybe better gave me some insights in to how to use those tools better. Then again my first teacher (in judo) used to wax on philosophically about how one needs to learn to be a well rounded fighter (whatever that means) if you're going to be in a fight. And I was encouraged to go out and "play" with the other kids... But that was a long time ago now that I mention it... Body can't take it any longer.

So when I'm teaching a general class I'll often intersperse all sorts of stuff, just presented from an Aikido perspective. When I"m working on a specific Aikido technique, well, it's pure Aikido (in the sense of waza, etc.). Otherwise... Shrug. I also take as many classes from others as I can simply to keep expanding.

There are tons of "what ifs" possible. So you train and see what works with those "what ifs".

Finally... I'm really not sure of the answer to the question of when one should do these things. Do you create a solid foundation in Aiki first then play with the other stuff? Do you learn some of the other stuff and then train in Aiki to help find refinement? Shrug. My case was a mixed mess of a bit of everything ending up with me focusing on Aikido primarily as a refinement of whatever the heck it is I would do. I find the aikido is now my very core. But what I may end up doing may not look very aikido-esque although inside me I feel it is.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Good comments Kevin, especially about the "control" mentality. I think we see a lot of tactical programs that emphasize control over striking. I am not sure if that is a PC thing, or if the program designers have correlated more success from suppression and control tactics (over striking tactics). I've even seen some bully programs where kids are taught to cover their attackers and wait for help.

Kata training in aikido gets you so far. But there has been some good advice to expose yourself to some other systems that look differently at striking and interaction. Clinching after a strike set is often a solid way to gain bodily control - I am a big fan of the programs that work this type of process. Aikido training is often focused on the irrimi of striking; that is, the mechanical process of acquiring and defending tactical space through occupation. Some schools just work with the principle, others with the strike, some have difficulty with that concept and some don't believe it. George Ledyard has an article on striking that I believe to be the hallmark article on this topic.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Great article! (but of course, we knew it would be). Can you imagine somebody who wasn't him dropping this bomb in a general thread?

"Anyone who has had occasion to apply Aikido techniques on a really resistant subject as in police application knows how hard it actually is to get a technique on someone intent on countering it. We train to maintain connection but a real attacker will attempt to break with you the instant that he doesn't feel things are going his way."

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I like that so many are open to cross-training other arts and experimenting. I also like the lack of BS responses. Sometimes you just have to get down and dirty and like I said before, I have no doubts that the older senseis did this to prove their art as an effective one. In Ki Aikido, we don't have much, if any atemi. Our only applications seem to be as a distraction, which I don't believe is effective one bit, personally.

On the topic of clinching in Aikido, you guys may find this video of interest:

I love that there's full resistance. Most people who I show the video to say that it's not Aikido because there is resistance and it's not 'smooth' enough... obviously, they haven't been in or seen any real scraps. I think that in such close distance, even though you can't see it, he's definitely using very small, subtle movements to manipulate his opponent without having to wrestle him too much. I also like the inclusion of simple striking.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Logan Light wrote:

I like that so many are open to cross-training other arts and experimenting. I also like the lack of BS responses. Sometimes you just have to get down and dirty and like I said before, I have no doubts that the older senseis did this to prove their art as an effective one. In Ki Aikido, we don't have much, if any atemi. Our only applications seem to be as a distraction, which I don't believe is effective one bit, personally.

On the topic of clinching in Aikido, you guys may find this video of interest:

I love that there's full resistance. Most people who I show the video to say that it's not Aikido because there is resistance and it's not 'smooth' enough... obviously, they haven't been in or seen any real scraps. I think that in such close distance, even though you can't see it, he's definitely using very small, subtle movements to manipulate his opponent without having to wrestle him too much. I also like the inclusion of simple striking.

Dear Logan,
This video is imo garbage.The guy with the hakama against low ranked opponents does not use any skills in aikido/judo or karate.He struggles against the opposition.His posture is all over the place.Words fail me for once.Cheers, Joe.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote:

Great article! (but of course, we knew it would be). Can you imagine somebody who wasn't him dropping this bomb in a general thread?

"Anyone who has had occasion to apply Aikido techniques on a really resistant subject as in police application knows how hard it actually is to get a technique on someone intent on countering it. We train to maintain connection but a real attacker will attempt to break with you the instant that he doesn't feel things are going his way."

Nope. That's why I direct questions to the man himself. I think you can argue whether you are capable of actual striking. And I think you can argue whether personally you want to include striking. This article is the best I have read in advocating that atemi is present in aikido and the role it plays in aikido.

I feel some of the sport application is difficult to demonstrate. If I grab a judo guy by the wrist, judo rules do not allow small joint manipulation so I am, in some sense, simply doing something the judoka has neither seen nor practices defenses against. I should hope I would have some success, presumably before being dumped on my head. Of course, now with the new rules about defending a grab... Same for for karate people. I think it is difficult to differentiate doing something with success because it is unexpected and doing something with success because it is effective. Fool me once...

Secondly, I think the focus of consetsu waza is misplaced in most randori situations, let alone free-style sparring. Not to draw on the other thread about self-defense, but the "real" techniques becoming mainstream for LEO and security have less to do with precision technique and more to do with basic suppression. Lock shields, advance and pin. Now if you don't have 4 or 5 riot officers, well...

Thirdly, I think one of the issues facing the "4-legged animal" connection model is working with the, "what if my partner disengages me?" question. Some instructors are very good at re-establishing connection; some not as good. Of the ones who are good with whom I have experience, most have another art under their belt. Your can see the little demon that was 20 years of karate or judo or jujutsu be unleashed and you die (just a little bit) in their eyes. Then you realize the connection was for you safety, not their convenience...

1. Basic/passive resistance, where uke uses a strong, resilient body to make it hard for you to put him down. He'll go, but he'll make you work.
2. Active resistance, where not only does uke not want to go down, he is looking to make YOU the uke. He should succeed in pinning/throwing you around half the time if your skill levels etc are matched. So if you aren't wasting your time beating up on someone who can't challenge you, you should be losing a lot of the time. By losing I don't mean failing to get a good throw-- I mean being thrown.

Anyway the video had some fun points like those edited bits at the beginning. But it is basically showing number 1 above, not number 2. So I do appreciate it, but I think it could go further.
Uke really should have felt free to strike toward the face at 2:26 for instance. (They were standing around within punching ma-ai, clearly thinking about the hakama guy's next throw/pin attempt)

BTW, if one guy is dressed like he is senior to the other people, I guess they wouldn't show #2, would they?

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:

Dear Logan,
This video is imo garbage.The guy with the hakama against low ranked opponents does not use any skills in aikido/judo or karate.He struggles against the opposition.His posture is all over the place.Words fail me for once.Cheers, Joe.

I would have to agree. My training partners and I have trained aikido under much heavier levels of resistance and also with the objective of countering the other's technique.

This teaches you how difficult it is to "do" aikido, and can help you understand what aikido actually is.

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Jon Reading wrote:

I feel some of the sport application is difficult to demonstrate. If I grab a judo guy by the wrist, judo rules do not allow small joint manipulation so I am, in some sense, simply doing something the judoka has neither seen nor practices defenses against. I should hope I would have some success, presumably before being dumped on my head. Of course, now with the new rules about defending a grab... Same for for karate people. I think it is difficult to differentiate doing something with success because it is unexpected and doing something with success because it is effective. Fool me once...

Secondly, I think the focus of consetsu waza is misplaced in most randori situations, let alone free-style sparring. Not to draw on the other thread about self-defense, but the "real" techniques becoming mainstream for LEO and security have less to do with precision technique and more to do with basic suppression. Lock shields, advance and pin. Now if you don't have 4 or 5 riot officers, well...

Thirdly, I think one of the issues facing the "4-legged animal" connection model is working with the, "what if my partner disengages me?" question. Some instructors are very good at re-establishing connection; some not as good. Of the ones who are good with whom I have experience, most have another art under their belt. Your can see the little demon that was 20 years of karate or judo or jujutsu be unleashed and you die (just a little bit) in their eyes. Then you realize the connection was for you safety, not their convenience...

I don't get it. Please, explain more clearly.

On a possibly related note. . . Just this evening my wife's cousin came over to visit. He is a relatively green correctional officer. But he's huge and ungodly strong. I asked him if he knew a certain deputy who used to train under me. This gentleman is the head of the jail's SRT (they deal with cell extractions and such) and is also huge. There was quite a bit of surprise on the cousin's face as he told me that that was his trainer and he tried to establish what relationship I had to this gentleman. He told me that my former student put him in a certain hold that caused pain to his wrist and he felt like he needed to escape and he did so. This apparently took place in front of a large group and the cousin was severely scolded for his actions. He asked me if the deputy learned this move from me. I informed him that I did teach this gentleman aikido and that he was quite capable and had done things in practice that I had not, but that I did not know what he was teaching the other COs. I showed the cousin sankyo and he confirmed this is the technique the deputy used. I asked him if it hurt when I did it and he said no. Then I asked him to escape it, and I pinned him.

Your attitude and intention are significant. In my experience aikido doesn't work very well when you try to inflict it on another.

Unfortunately LEOs are often put in the place of the aggressor. That's the nature of their work. . . It's not the nature of aikido.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:

Dear Logan,
This video is imo garbage.The guy with the hakama against low ranked opponents does not use any skills in aikido/judo or karate.He struggles against the opposition.His posture is all over the place.Words fail me for once.Cheers, Joe.

How, then, do you apply specific Aikido techniques, especially wristlocks, without struggle? I have no doubt he could've been a little smoother in technique but honestly, when you're applying a wristlock and the only way to avoid them, especially if you know Aikido, is through subtle movements, how can you not struggle with that? If you have someone who is super flinchy and resistant and won't let you get anything, you may have to wrestle a technique or two in. I'm sure there's room for improvement but at least there out there putting it on the mat and testing their stuff out

Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote:

Well, there's (at least) 2 categories of "resistance."

1. Basic/passive resistance, where uke uses a strong, resilient body to make it hard for you to put him down. He'll go, but he'll make you work.
2. Active resistance, where not only does uke not want to go down, he is looking to make YOU the uke. He should succeed in pinning/throwing you around half the time if your skill levels etc are matched. So if you aren't wasting your time beating up on someone who can't challenge you, you should be losing a lot of the time. By losing I don't mean failing to get a good throw-- I mean being thrown.

Anyway the video had some fun points like those edited bits at the beginning. But it is basically showing number 1 above, not number 2. So I do appreciate it, but I think it could go further.
Uke really should have felt free to strike toward the face at 2:26 for instance. (They were standing around within punching ma-ai, clearly thinking about the hakama guy's next throw/pin attempt)

BTW, if one guy is dressed like he is senior to the other people, I guess they wouldn't show #2, would they?

I don't think his students were actively looking for techniques as much out of concern for themselves. If you watch the full vids, you can see that they do try techniques but I haven't really seen anyone put him in anything. Maybe they aren't being fully committed. Either way, the video was to serve a point. And I appreciate the points you made. Maybe it wasn't full resistance but it's better than being compliant just for the sake of making sensei look good. I love how you brought up that they were in punching distance, though. Anyone on the streets is more than likely going to throw a strike if both their wrists aren't tied up or if they aren't in the clinch. That's why I think you have to be decisive in any sort of lock and not try to fight it out too much but still, it's a good start.

Anyways, back on topic. Me and my buddy were boxing the other day. We decided to do a drill where he was just striking (his style is primarily boxing) and I was defending. The whole time I was looking to tenkan and get to his side but if you don't have someone overly committed or someone who has good footwork, it's next to impossible for me. I was also gonna try to irimi and tie up but even then, thats difficult when they're throwing straights.

It's easy to tenkan off-line and avoid a simple, narrow sword cut or shomenuchi. But when you have someone going down a WIDE line because they're throwing multiple strikes, what's an alternative to getting control? All I could see was opening for strikes that'd maybe stun him, then I could rush in.