In late 2007 and very early 2008 I had to decide which to support, Obama or Kucinich.

I looked up Cleveland newspaper articles from his time as mayor in Cleveland. I don't remember the details and I don't want to look them up again for a forum discussion about a man who is running for office so far outside of my state, but I do remember walking away with a firm decision that while I thought he was fine as a member of legislative body, I wouldn't want him to hold an executive position where it would effect me.

That is how Obama got my early support and my vote.

I remember feeling sorry for Cleveland. Kucinich was such a miserable executive as mayor that Black voters turned out for George Voinovich for crying out loud.

The way I figured it because of Kucinich's miserable executive skills, Voinovich got his toe hold in Cleveland by being elected Mayor at a time when no Republican should have been able to do that.

Because of that toe hold he got in Cleveland, later on the state of Ohio had Voinovich as a Governor. And after that we had Voinovich as a US Senator from Ohio.

I think Kucinich would make a miserable Ohio state Governor. I'm not worried about it actually happening though.

But it wouldn't bother me if Kucinich ran for a seat in the US House again, or the US Senate.

Kucinich, alone on the left as far as I can see, said on national TV a few week back that the real Trump scandal is not Russians running fake ads on Facebook but the fact that candidate Trump was spied upon (as Kucinich once was) and the Deep State wants to bring a duly elected president down. That, he said, is the real political and constitutional crisis. It sounds like a spy novel, he said, but it is all too real — a politicized intelligence community. We even have a politicized FBI. And, he added, people need to put party and ideology aside and see this plainly.

[snip]

But, Kucinich told me, “I do understand why Donald Trump was elected. I really do.” He said that Americans want their politics “to actually mean something,” and for politicians to represent the practical interests of ordinary citizens. He called Cleveland, his hometown, “the epicenter of the sub-prime,” meltdown. He said his own house in Cleveland is worth less than the money he’s put into it. He said the Democratic Party has minimal understanding, and precious little sympathy, for the working class homeowner in Cleveland. “Remember,” he said, “Trump beat both parties.” Neither party had any handle on the disappearance of good jobs or housing values in urban or rural Ohio, or on what NAFTA has done to this state. Without really engaging with the Trump voter on lunch-bucket issues, he said, the Democratic Party cannot regain the presidency.

[snip][end]

Donald Trump was not spied upon. That you chose to believe him is on you. That some of his people may have walked into intercepts - that was on them.

And in your answers, I get this weird sense you still don't get that the real answer to your question is, he conned the working people of America. What kind of fucking progressive doesn't get that TRUMP IS NOT A PROGRESSIVE?

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

"GREAT #inauguration speech @RealDonaldTrump!" Kucinich tapped out on Twitter soon after the speech. "Congratulations & best wishes from Dennis & Elizabeth Kucinich watching from Beirut, Lebanon," he added in the tweet, which included American flag emojis.

Asked via email what he liked about the speech, Kucinich responded by directing a reporter to his Facebook page, where he elaborated more.

"Donald Trump's message of unity is critical at this moment," he wrote. "I call upon all Americans to join in a common effort to create a great vision for our country, our people and for peace in the world. Let's give him and ourselves a chance."

Trump, a wealthy businessman, won the White House as a populist Republican.

Kucinich, throughout a political career that included two long-shot White House bids, styled himself as a populist Democrat. He lost his Cleveland-area congressional seat in 2012, after GOP-led redistricting pushed him into the same territory as Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Toledo.

Since then he has worked as a consultant and appeared on Fox News Channel as a contributor. In 2015, he spoke at CPAC, an annual gathering of conservative activists.

[snip][end]

Hmmmmmmm.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

Kucinich, alone on the left as far as I can see, said on national TV a few week back that the real Trump scandal is not Russians running fake ads on Facebook but the fact that candidate Trump was spied upon (as Kucinich once was) and the Deep State wants to bring a duly elected president down. That, he said, is the real political and constitutional crisis. It sounds like a spy novel, he said, but it is all too real — a politicized intelligence community. We even have a politicized FBI. And, he added, people need to put party and ideology aside and see this plainly.

[snip]

But, Kucinich told me, “I do understand why Donald Trump was elected. I really do.” He said that Americans want their politics “to actually mean something,” and for politicians to represent the practical interests of ordinary citizens. He called Cleveland, his hometown, “the epicenter of the sub-prime,” meltdown. He said his own house in Cleveland is worth less than the money he’s put into it. He said the Democratic Party has minimal understanding, and precious little sympathy, for the working class homeowner in Cleveland. “Remember,” he said, “Trump beat both parties.” Neither party had any handle on the disappearance of good jobs or housing values in urban or rural Ohio, or on what NAFTA has done to this state. Without really engaging with the Trump voter on lunch-bucket issues, he said, the Democratic Party cannot regain the presidency.

[snip][end]

Donald Trump was not spied upon. That you chose to believe him is on you. That some of his people may have walked into intercepts - that was on them.

And in your answers, I get this weird sense you still don't get that the real answer to your question is, he conned the working people of America. What kind of fucking progressive doesn't get that TRUMP IS NOT A PROGRESSIVE?

hes right in the sense that democrats bought into abandoning working and poor and never looked back. some were conned yes some despondent and some were saying to get their support you have to include them too in the representation.

He's got a lot of competition in that primary, and I foresee some tough questions from our state propaganda outlets, errrr, media.

He still believes there is a "Deep State" out to get Trump.

BTW, he has some very harsh criticisms of the Democrats, and I'm not saying they're entirely inaccurate; but, then, why is he running as a Democrat and not a Green or independent or Labor or something else?

Question's rhetorical: because if he doesn't run as a Dem, his chance of winning drops below infinitestimal.

Ya know, I liked Mike Gravel in 2008, also. Phenomenal platform. But people are more than their issue lists. He went off the rails, too. Ran one of the most bizarre campaign ads ever. Switched to the Libertarian Party. Did not end up being the Libertarian nominee.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

was honored by Cleveland city council in 1998 for saving the city almost 200 million dollars, coauthored the single payer legislation most Americans want and unlike a certain New york senator voted against the Iraq war and patriot act.

Along with Lew Rockwell, Judge Andrew Napolitano, and some other folks.

Lew Rockwell was president of the Von Mises Institute. You know, that Austrian Economics mythology bullshit bird talks about from time to time. Many people also considered him and Murray Rothbard to be white supremacists.

Napolitano, BTW, is a Revisionist historian of the Civil War, and was fired from Faux News for claiming Obama & British spies wiretapped Trump at Trump Tower - because it was a lie.

Am I allowed to ask one more question? Why is Dennis on the Advisory Board of an organization whose founder/leader published racist newsletters?

Many articles in these newsletters contained statements that were criticized as racist or homophobic. These statements include, "Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."[8][9][10][11] An October 1992 article said, "even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I’ve urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense... for the animals are coming."[12] Another newsletter suggested that black activists who wanted to rename New York City after Martin Luther King, Jr. should instead rename it "Welfaria," "Zooville," "Rapetown," "Dirtburg," or "Lazyopolis."[2] An article titled "The Pink House" said "I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."[2][13][14] Another newsletter asserted that HIV-positive homosexuals "enjoy the pity and attention that comes with being sick" and approved of the slogan "Sodomy=Death

[snip][end]

Doesn't sound so progressive to me.

When asked in 2007 who he might consider as a running mate if he ran for President, Kucinich answered, "Ron Paul".

I notice you didn't really get into his Congressional career. Here's the bills Dennis authored & passed while in Congress.

A bill “to make available to the Ukranian Museum and Archives the USIA television program ‘Window on America,’ ” a bill “to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 14500 Lorain Avenue in Cleveland, Ohio as the ‘John P. Gallagher Post Office Building” and a bill “proclaiming Casimir Pulaski to be an honorary citizen of the United States posthumously.”

And another bill naming a post office.

I think it's good when people have good ideas. I believe in holding and advocating good ideas. Dennis has many.

But I hold politicians to a further standard. Actually getting their ideas enacted as legislation, and getting shit done.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

Along with Lew Rockwell, Judge Andrew Napolitano, and some other folks.

Lew Rockwell was president of the Von Mises Institute. You know, that Austrian Economics mythology bullshit bird talks about from time to time. Many people also considered him and Murray Rothbard to be white supremacists.

Napolitano, BTW, is a Revisionist historian of the Civil War, and was fired from Faux News for claiming Obama & British spies wiretapped Trump at Trump Tower - because it was a lie.

Am I allowed to ask one more question? Why is Dennis on the Advisory Board of an organization whose founder/leader published racist newsletters?

Many articles in these newsletters contained statements that were criticized as racist or homophobic. These statements include, "Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."[8][9][10][11] An October 1992 article said, "even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I’ve urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense... for the animals are coming."[12] Another newsletter suggested that black activists who wanted to rename New York City after Martin Luther King, Jr. should instead rename it "Welfaria," "Zooville," "Rapetown," "Dirtburg," or "Lazyopolis."[2] An article titled "The Pink House" said "I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."[2][13][14] Another newsletter asserted that HIV-positive homosexuals "enjoy the pity and attention that comes with being sick" and approved of the slogan "Sodomy=Death

[snip][end]

Doesn't sound so progressive to me.

When asked in 2007 who he might consider as a running mate if he ran for President, Kucinich answered, "Ron Paul".

I notice you didn't really get into his Congressional career. Here's the bills Dennis authored & passed while in Congress.

A bill “to make available to the Ukranian Museum and Archives the USIA television program ‘Window on America,’ ” a bill “to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 14500 Lorain Avenue in Cleveland, Ohio as the ‘John P. Gallagher Post Office Building” and a bill “proclaiming Casimir Pulaski to be an honorary citizen of the United States posthumously.”

And another bill naming a post office.

I think it's good when people have good ideas. I believe in holding and advocating good ideas. Dennis has many.

But I hold politicians to a further standard. Actually getting their ideas enacted as legislation, and getting shit done.

Hillary voted for the war in Iraq and got it, she also voted for the patriot act and got it, they werent her Ideas to begin with but she was effective in giving her support for those getting passed. look at how those things intimately affect us to this very day. are we better off for it?

Best I can say about Denis Kucinich friendship association with ron paul and his institute is it likely gives him a platform to promote his peace agenda, also he says he likes interacting with people who are polar opposites. how he resolves the letters you'll have to ask him. but I dont see him promoting racism or homophobia do you?

That his agenda is peace and not war its not surprising that he is marginalized to such an extent perhaps if he gave in to the easy way it would be a more forgivable association that, of bloody endless war and he could be elected president and hang out with the popular crowd.

Hillary voted for the war in Iraq and got it, she also voted for the patriot act and got it, they werent her Ideas to begin with but she was effective in giving her support for those getting passed. look at how those things intimately affect us to this very day. are we better off for it?

No.

She said her vote on the Iraq War was a mistake and she regretted it. John Kerry also voted for the war, too.

She never said that about her vote for the Patriot Act. She also voted to reauthorize it. I wish she regretted it. I take your point.

2/3 of the House voted for it, originally. It's true Kucinich was one who voted against. Only one Senator voted against it. Russ Feingold. I'm not going to defend Clinton's vote, but she wasn't alone.

BTW, if we're going to be frank, we should also acknowledge who extended the Patriot Act in 2015, too.

You can hate on Hillary. Maybe the Democratic Party as a whole. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but they've kept renewing its provisions. I agree with you they should regret it, and shouldn't have.

It's not the only thing I can think of where I wish the Party voted and acted differently.

Quote:

Best I can say about Denis Kucinich friendship association with ron paul and his institute is it likely gives him a platform to promote his peace agenda, also he says he likes interacting with people who are polar opposites. how he resolves the letters you'll have to ask him. but I dont see him promoting racism or homophobia do you?

I'm sorry. Whether you like interacting with "polar opposites" or not, if somebody asks me, "Will you serve on my Advisory Board," and I know for a fact they associate with people from Stormfront.

Ron Paul with Don Black of Stormfront

I would have only one answer consistent with my "peace agenda": "FUCK OFF".

Quote:

That his agenda is peace and not war its not surprising that he is marginalized to such an extent perhaps if he gave in to the easy way it would be a more forgivable association that, of bloody endless war and he could be elected president and hang out with the popular crowd.

I am not for war, endless or other. I am for peace.

I am for civil liberties. I am for ending the war on drugs. Ron Paul may give lip service to all of this. Like most Right-Libertarians, I actually believe he is NOT a pacifist, he's just a non-interventionist. The two stances are different. But I'm also not a single or even slight number of issues, voter.

Unfortunately, I'm not with Ron Paul's popular crowd, because I am also for the welfare state, against racism, against not getting rid of 90% of the government agencies, and putting us under Von Mises-Austrian school economics.

And if Don Black came over to take a photo with me, I would kick him in the fucking nuts. Very hard.

Oh and one more thing -- be careful about holding everyone to their past votes without ... forgiveness.

[from the Wiki:}Prior to 2002, Kucinich's voting record was strongly pro-life, but he currently maintains a pro-choice stance on abortion. In 1996, he was quoted as saying that "life begins at conception", and he has also voted in favor of banning partial birth abortion and preventing the transport of minors to undergo abortion procedures.

He changed his mind. Politicians can do that, even over votes for war.

You can hate on Hillary. Maybe the Democratic Party as a whole. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but they've kept renewing its provisions. I agree with you they should regret it, and shouldn't have.

It's not the only thing I can think of where I wish the Party voted and acted differently.

I'm sorry. Whether you like interacting with "polar opposites" or not, if somebody asks me, "Will you serve on my Advisory Board," and I know for a fact they associate with people from Stormfront.

Ron Paul with Don Black of Stormfront

I would have only one answer consistent with my "peace agenda": "FUCK OFF".

I am not for war, endless or other. I am for peace.

I am for civil liberties. I am for ending the war on drugs. Ron Paul may give lip service to all of this. Like most Right-Libertarians, I actually believe he is NOT a pacifist, he's just a non-interventionist. The two stances are different. But I'm also not a single or even slight number of issues, voter.

Unfortunately, I'm not with Ron Paul's popular crowd, because I am also for the welfare state, against racism, against not getting rid of 90% of the government agencies, and putting us under Von Mises-Austrian school economics.

And if Don Black came over to take a photo with me, I would kick him in the fucking nuts. Very hard.

Oh and one more thing -- be careful about holding everyone to their past votes without ... forgiveness.

[from the Wiki:}Prior to 2002, Kucinich's voting record was strongly pro-life, but he currently maintains a pro-choice stance on abortion. In 1996, he was quoted as saying that "life begins at conception", and he has also voted in favor of banning partial birth abortion and preventing the transport of minors to undergo abortion procedures.

He changed his mind. Politicians can do that, even over votes for war.

have to be honest I really dont know what stormfront is, not sure about the term deep state Im guessing something like shadow government, I dont pay much attention to stuff like that, but I did want to make the point about condemning Dennis Kucinich because of his associations relative to Hillary's association to that bloody endless war and being forgiving to the point of being elected president. I understand the criticism but I dont think its fair to Mr. Kucinich given his character or past performance.

........We have a bipartisan consensus that the American Empire should be supported. The Republicans have largely been rather crude and unapologetic about it, the Democrats are better at presenting a kinder and gentler version of it.

It seems that only the "fringe", like Howard Dean, Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul ever speak against it. The top tier might say platitudes in regards to peace, but they support the status quo. I.E: supporting an continuing the empire as dictated by the establishment.

Let me qualify everything I wrote that I do not support Ron Paul, especially in regards to the racist newsletters. I just find it unfortunate that somebody without his baggage does not speak just as loudly regarding the issues that many care about.

Created by former Alabama Klan boss and long-time white supremacist Don Black in 1995, Stormfront was the first major hate site on the Internet. Claiming more than 300,000 registered members as of May 2015 (though far fewer remain active), the site has been a very popular online forum for white nationalists and other racial extremists.

Our mission is to provide information not available in the controlled news media and to build a community of White activists working for the survival of our people."— From "Guidelines for Posting," Stormfont.org

The term Deep State I agree with you is nebulous. Problem is, what Trump means by it is anybody critical of his acting like an authoritarian dictator. 2nd problem is, Kucinich seems to agree with Trump.

Quote:

It seems that only the "fringe", like Howard Dean, Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul ever speak against it. The top tier might say platitudes in regards to peace, but they support the status quo. I.E: supporting an continuing the empire as dictated by the establishment.

I thought Howard Dean was on the outs. First off, he now works for the health care industry. Secondly, he endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2016 in the primaries.

I figured at this point everybody had written him off as a sell-out.

BTW that sentence is probably the most classic example of a false choice/dilemma I have ever seen. By that, I mean, it declares either you are for some absolutist, libertarian view of non-interventionism, or you support the status quo of American empire.

I don't fit on either end of that bizarre spectrum of extremes. I do believe in an America that has an engaged active foreign policy, not isolationism. I just don't think our only way to be engaged is through our military.

I think Ron Paul is nuts, I STILL like Howard Dean, but I do not want "permanent war" or a "status quo" of "American Empire". If you asked me, should the U.S shut down 90% of its overseas military bases ... I'd probably say ... yes.

BTW, I also agree with Ike that the military is way too huge, we spend way too much on it, and we have way too many fucking aircraft carriers.

While future neo-Nazi Richard Spencer was struggling with white nationalism in the world of political journalism, most of the people who would later comprise the alt-right’s online shock troops were involved in a different venture: fighting to make former Texas congressman Ron Paul the Republican presidential nominee, first in 2008 and again in 2012.

It’s more than uncanny how many current alt-right leaders backed the former Texas congressman in his quixotic bids to stop GOP mainstream candidates John McCain and Mitt Romney.Pretty much all of the top personalities at the Right Stuff, a neo-Nazi troll mecca, started off as conventional libertarians and Paul supporters, according to the site’s creator, an anonymous man who goes by the name “Mike Enoch.”

“We were all libertarians back in the day. I mean, everybody knows this,” he said on an alt-right podcast last month. After Paul's second campaign failed, Enoch completely disengaged from politics, he added.

Paul was also the favorite of Paul Gottfried and Spencer, the two men who created the term "alternative right" and formed the annual conference where old-school right-wing racists met and mentored young and disaffected conservative intellectuals.

The Texas congressman was also the preferred candidate of Jared Taylor and the readers of his white nationalist website American Renaissance. That feeling of admiration was apparently mutual. In the 1990s, Paul in his famously racist newsletters repeatedly promoted Taylor as part of a "paleolibertarian" strategy designed to attract racist white people. (Paul subsequently denied writing them, however.)

[snip]

Paul had non-racist supporters as well who would later become alt-right figures. (The self-described neo-Nazi types refer to them as "alt-lite.") Libertarian radio host Alex Jones of InfoWars, famous for his belief in lizard people and his elaborate 9/11 conspiracy theories, dislikes being identified with the alt-right. But he is an important figure in the movement's history and a key link from Ron Paul to Donald Trump. Today Jones is known today as an ardent Trump supporter but his affection for Ron Paul and his son, Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky, was even greater while they were running their respective presidential campaigns.

[snip][end]

The alt-right bailed on Rand Paul, his son, and turned to Trump, because Rand turned his back on dear old da's habits of dog whistling to them. Trump wouldn't, and their love switched.

Ron Paul I do not put on the fringe because he is a critic of imperialism. No, I put him on the alt-right fringe because he lies down with dogs, then wonders why he has fleas.

Now I agree one other thing is odd. Ron Paul was a Right-Libertarian, whereas Trump is clearly an Authoritarian Conservative. Which basically means white nationalists don't really give a shit about ideology as long as people cater to them.

Kucinich may be a pacifist and believe in nonviolence, but most Libertarians I have met are not. I say that, because the two guys I know who owned the largest arsenals of heavy weaponry were both self-identified Libertarians. They may not like state violence, but they seem to be fond of signs like "Step on my property and I'll blow your ass away". I don't think that's pacifism.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

While future neo-Nazi Richard Spencer was struggling with white nationalism in the world of political journalism, most of the people who would later comprise the alt-right’s online shock troops were involved in a different venture: fighting to make former Texas congressman Ron Paul the Republican presidential nominee, first in 2008 and again in 2012.

It’s more than uncanny how many current alt-right leaders backed the former Texas congressman in his quixotic bids to stop GOP mainstream candidates John McCain and Mitt Romney.Pretty much all of the top personalities at the Right Stuff, a neo-Nazi troll mecca, started off as conventional libertarians and Paul supporters, according to the site’s creator, an anonymous man who goes by the name “Mike Enoch.”

“We were all libertarians back in the day. I mean, everybody knows this,” he said on an alt-right podcast last month. After Paul's second campaign failed, Enoch completely disengaged from politics, he added.

Paul was also the favorite of Paul Gottfried and Spencer, the two men who created the term "alternative right" and formed the annual conference where old-school right-wing racists met and mentored young and disaffected conservative intellectuals.

The Texas congressman was also the preferred candidate of Jared Taylor and the readers of his white nationalist website American Renaissance. That feeling of admiration was apparently mutual. In the 1990s, Paul in his famously racist newsletters repeatedly promoted Taylor as part of a "paleolibertarian" strategy designed to attract racist white people. (Paul subsequently denied writing them, however.)

[snip]

Paul had non-racist supporters as well who would later become alt-right figures. (The self-described neo-Nazi types refer to them as "alt-lite.") Libertarian radio host Alex Jones of InfoWars, famous for his belief in lizard people and his elaborate 9/11 conspiracy theories, dislikes being identified with the alt-right. But he is an important figure in the movement's history and a key link from Ron Paul to Donald Trump. Today Jones is known today as an ardent Trump supporter but his affection for Ron Paul and his son, Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky, was even greater while they were running their respective presidential campaigns.

[snip][end]

The alt-right bailed on Rand Paul, his son, and turned to Trump, because Rand turned his back on dear old da's habits of dog whistling to them. Trump wouldn't, and their love switched.

Ron Paul I do not put on the fringe because he is a critic of imperialism. No, I put him on the alt-right fringe because he lies down with dogs, then wonders why he has fleas.

Now I agree one other thing is odd. Ron Paul was a Right-Libertarian, whereas Trump is clearly an Authoritarian Conservative. Which basically means white nationalists don't really give a shit about ideology as long as people cater to them.

Kucinich may be a pacifist and believe in nonviolence, but most Libertarians I have met are not. I say that, because the two guys I know who owned the largest arsenals of heavy weaponry were both self-identified Libertarians. They may not like state violence, but they seem to be fond of signs like "Step on my property and I'll blow your ass away". I don't think that's pacifism.

Kucinich is not a pacifist he is just not a coward when it comes to standing up for peace. He wouldnt wish the hellish nightmare on our country were going through now with the mass shootings and veteran suicides and homeless veterans, and that what puts him in the fringe.

Like Canada Ohio is our neighbor to the south hope they start to turn things around.

...........Ohio purged 2 million voters from 2011 to 2016, more than any other state, including over 840,000 for infrequent voting. At least 144,000 voters in Ohio’s three largest counties, home to Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati, have been purged since the 2012 election, with voters in Democratic-leaning neighborhoods twice as likely to be removed as those in Republican-leaning ones, according to a Reuters analysis.

A federal appeals court ruled in September 2016 that the state’s purging of infrequent voters violated the NVRA, which states that someone cannot be removed from the rolls “by reason of the person’s failure to vote.” As a result of that ruling, 7,500 people who had been purged from the rolls were reinstated and were able to vote in the 2016 election.........

Several studies and data from the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics show no evidence that military veterans — including those who witnessed or waged combat in Iraq and Afghanistan — are more prone to lethal violence than the general population.

The specter of the “wacko” war veteran waiting to explode — built up over generations in movies and, according to some critics, in news coverage of crimes involving military vets — very rarely becomes reality, experts said.

[snip]

Some experts have been critical of the way the news media has linked together cases of veterans who commit violent crimes.

For example, in a 2008 series called “War Torn,” The New York Times examined 121 cases in which Iraq or Afghanistan veterans committed or were charged with killings back at home. The series concluded that “In many of those cases, combat trauma and the stress of deployment — along with alcohol abuse, family discord and other attendant problems — appear to have set the stage for a tragedy that was part destruction, part self-destruction.”

USC’s Sreenivasan cited this series as one of the reasons she and her colleagues did their research on the link between crime and combat.

“We were concerned that Iraq and Afghanistan veterans might be erroneously considered to be more dangerous or at risk for lethal violence than anybody else,” she said.

[snip][end]

I wish people wouldn't stigmatize veterans this way. Rambo was just a movie.

P.S. in no way does this mean I disagree with your point that this country shouldn't carelessly enter into war, and needs to take way better care of its veterans. Though in fact they are not more likely to commit mass shootings than other Americans, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned, as you are, about their suicides or homelessness.

Oh, and that we need to reduce mass shootings, too.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

there were several mass shootings in 2017 a lot of them were millitary veterans, some werent, I didnt say anything about them being rambo or stigmatize them, even the shooters that werent veterans could be affected by the war through things like the war economy, the changes in domestic spending, cutbacks on programs of social uplift, the strains on our systems of justice, the inequalities it grows and develops. not to mention the example of the nation going on a shooting/bombing spree against a country because it was in no position to defend itself.

I take those points. Reminds me of things Michael Moore said at the end of Bowling for Columbine and they are valid. It's why he mentions one of the shooter's fathers worked in the defense industry.

However, I think any model of the frequency of mass shootings in this country that doesn't focus on the availability of weapons though which they can be perpetrated is incomplete. I agree part of this is "the war economy" and maybe military surplus in particular that relates to this, but the other is a lack of laws.

The other is a culture of fear which relates to our militarism but is a separate phenomenon, ultimately. Moore discusses this as well. It's people in this country constantly in fear of each other. Especially minorities.

P.S. allow me to repeat one point -- I'm glad Dennis Kucinich is for gun control, but it's not from me he's going to have to worry about while campaigning, if somebody brings up he once wanted to ban all handguns. (A position I don't advocate.)

P.S.2 I happen to think a Department of Peace would be a really good idea. There is something called the U.S. Institute of Peace, already. Granted, not, as Dennis suggests, Cabinet-level. Of course, as a Ohio governor, he won't be setting up federal agencies. https://www.usip.org

It'll be interesting to see what polling says on the Ohio primary race in a few weeks. I still prefer Richard Cordray. Who last I checked, is not an advocate of rampant militarism, either.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

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