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If you want to find anything on aikido, I'd suggesting finding a Ueshiba.

Quote:

I think the dozens of men and teachers who have felt this stuff and have openly stated they were stumped..

I'm stumped by a lot of math problems, it doesn't mean that those problems are more real math than any other math problems.

Quote:

Why haven't you, Eric, or Justin responded or replied to George L.Ron, Mark M., Murray M., Mark C., Rob, Stan, Chris, or any of the other men who have openly stated otherwise?

I already stated that I don't find testimony helpful, nor endless static drills, and have already met several people (though not people you recommended) and wasn't impressed they were doing anything different than regular ol' movement. And that apparently nowhere is it stated in Chinese or Japanese by any founders that there are 'hidden' skills that are the true basis for these arts as claimed, since all texts are definitely open to different interpretations. In fact, I've stated these things so many times so it is somewhat surprising when it is claimed I haven't responded.

If others have found them helpful in improving their aikido/taiji/whatever, that is good for them. I will continue to point out that their arguments do not convince a lot of people, however.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

Ki Society dojo and those related to that family of aikido should be able to teach you these things.

Bzzzt! Wrong! If that were true these threads wouldn't exist. Yours seems to be one of the most serious afflictions of "I already know that/ain't nuthin' new"-itis I've seen in a good stretch. Go see Akuzawa when he comes to Europe. Until then you're saying the same things over and over in dozens of posts, all with variations of the same theme.

I don't really feel qualified to say how useful it ultimately is as an Aikido drill. I just thought the jargon being used to describe it sounded excessive.

Hi Kevin,
No question... the "jargon" was left over from a time when folks had absolutely no idea what was happening and the folks that spread Aikido had these cool things to show. They were especially effective as you could get a newbie to do it in a couple of minutes and they were really impressed.

The only reason that I mention it is that, now that Aikido has been around a lot longer, folks have tended to dismiss the exercise. As Mike says, there is actually a range of things that can be going on. I can't comment about the range, I only know what I am doing. But it is still a very good exercise to do in a seminar to let people do a quick down and dirty check to see if they understand in their bodies what they need to be doing with their arms in their waza. As I said, if they cannot both flex and then extend again while under pressure, without tensing up their lower and upper arms noticeably, they really don't have any way to do waza properly. They will either collide or collapse when they make contact with an opposing force.

It can also be a demonstration of the way the arms are integrated into the whole of the body, which I believe is what Mike also alluded to. One should be able to not only flex and extend while under pressure from the partner but also, by simply rotating the hips, move the partner around fairly effortlessly. This can help people understand that they aren't going to use their arms for power in their technique.

Bzzzt! Wrong! If that were true these threads wouldn't exist. Yours seems to be one of the most serious afflictions of "I already know that/ain't nuthin' new"-itis I've seen in a good stretch. Go see Akuzawa when he comes to Europe. Until then you're saying the same things over and over in dozens of posts, all with variations of the same theme.

I saw Akuzawa on Youtube videos. It had endless static drills, that were not fighting and were in a 'play nice' environment / rule/set. The video even stated basically that. So what is one supposed to make of that?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

If you want to find anything on aikido, I'd suggesting finding a Ueshiba.

I'm stumped by a lot of math problems, it doesn't mean that those problems are more real math than any other math problems.

I already stated that I don't find testimony helpful, nor endless static drills, and have already met several people (though not people you recommended) and wasn't impressed they were doing anything different than regular ol' movement. And that apparently nowhere is it stated in Chinese or Japanese by any founders that there are 'hidden' skills that are the true basis for these arts as claimed, since all texts are definitely open to different interpretations. In fact, I've stated these things so many times so it is somewhat surprising when it is claimed I haven't responded.

If others have found them helpful in improving their aikido/taiji/whatever, that is good for them. I will continue to point out that their arguments do not convince a lot of people, however.

I saw Akuzawa on Youtube videos. It had endless static drills, that were not fighting and were in a 'play nice' environment / rule/set. The video even stated basically that. So what is one supposed to make of that?

Justin, I don't understand what you think you are looking for... one touch killing technique snuff videos? The videos are exactly what they purported to be, as you yourself noted. So what does one make of that? Only what ones experience has prepared them to understand I guess.

Anyway, give me a break, this is a discussion forum... it's ALL testimony. If you don't find it helpful, then why participate? You are simply being selective about which testimony you choose to pay attention to.

I saw Akuzawa on Youtube videos. It had endless static drills, that were not fighting and were in a 'play nice' environment / rule/set. The video even stated basically that. So what is one supposed to make of that?

Nothing, videos are one thing, feeling it is another.

Here's what I had to say on 11-1-2005 after watching some of the Aunkai videos from http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31125
"Saw these a while back when his student was pushing him as the greatest thing since sliced (crustless of course) bread. Honestly, not that impressed, if you've ever been thrown around by Don Angier or his guys, you'll see nothing new here. It's not that it's bad, but it's not exactly groundbreaking..."

And here's my post to the same thread after training with him (oddly enough, exactly one year to the day later on 11-1-2006):
"So I just got back from a trip to Japan and Ark allowed me and a training partner of mine to work into one of his classes. Huge thanks to him, Rob, Adam and the rest of his guys. So having actually had a few hours of face time and more importantly hands ON time, I thought I should follow up on this post. The short version is that I'm currently soaking my feet in a lovely wasabi-soy concoction that should make having my feet in my mouth a much more plesant experience. Ark probably is about the best thing since crustless sliced bread, and (to me at least) it most certainly felt groundbreaking. But beyond Ark's own very considerable skill, I was equally impressed with the very high level of skill of his students that had been with him for a couple years. It was clear that not only was he able to do some amazing stuff, but that he had a system for building these same internal skills in others. Further, he's able to do so in a relatively short period of time. Rob's been training with Ark for about three years (if I remember correctly) and easily had better body skills than nearly anyone I have dealt with in Aikido in the US, that list would include some 6th-8th dans who are serious mucky mucks in the seminar circuit. What they're doing is not very similar to what I've seen of Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu, but felt a bit more like what Systema might be one day. I generally call it like I see it, but when I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, and I was certainly wrong on this one. Again, huge thanks to Rob for coordinating our visit and Ark for having us. My only regret is the sleep I lost that night trying desparately to wrap my head around some of the things that were done in class."

It sucks, but you just have to feel it, try it on and play around with it. Live in it for a while. I've got a total exposure time to Ark of about four hours (1/2 that over beers) and maybe another 6-10 with Rob and it's changed the way I move on a very fundamental level.

I'm the guy behind the curtain, Aran. Sorry, it's been 8 or 9 years since I was last in Oz, mainly in the Sydney and Paramatta area, various places. I wouldn't know who to recommend because I haven't felt what anyone could do since then.

Best.

Mike

Oh well, just when I thought I was on to a solid lead there, guess I better just saving my pennies for a trip overseas.

Mike, in case you weren't already aware, Akuzawa will be in Europe for seminars very soon. I recommend that you go check him out. I think you'll find that what he's doing is of larger and more versatile application than the Ki Society work you are doing.

If , as you have said, what he is doing is basically the same as your Aikido training, you can have the satisfaction of coming back with a big "I told you so."

If not, then you'll have learned something.

Many people have made me aware of this already. I am not a member of the Ki Society and do not practice their stuff in the way they do it. My teacher can often be heard saying 'If you can use ki to do this technique why not a punch or a kick? Stands to reason you can use it in many ways'. I have seen one of my sempai accidentally get punched full force in the face and he didn't move an inch nor was he bothered by it in any way, I'm not there yet but that's what I'm aiming for

If Akuzawa is in Europe and he has a shortcut I'd definitely be interested in seeing it

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Lastly, let me point out, Mike, that if your "logic" (see #2) was really that good, you should be able to logically explain how many of the things in past discussions were done. That's what many of these threads were about. You say you can do them, so why not let's see your analyses of how they word, as you teach them?

I say I can do some of this stuff and know others who can do it all.

Mike then said:

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

A better example of, at core, the same thing would be to take a steady push to the chest and ground it. In reality, the "unbendable arm" is just a variant of that exercise, when done correctly. In fact, ALL of the ki demonstrations are, at core, variations of either that exercise or the "unliftable" exercise.... or a combination of the two. But watch out, I said that glibly and glossed over the fact that there are some sophisticated extensions of the 2 core demo's I just mentioned.

The steady push to the chest is done in this manner regularly and repeatedly in every Ki Soc derived dojo I have ever visited. At the beginning of the baseline skill thread you described such an exercise. Tohei describes and identical exercise in the book I cited at the beginning of this thread. I also agree with you completely about all the ki soc exercises being at their core about those two things. Actually at their core they are about four things:

Keep one point
Keep calm and relaxed
Keep weight underside
Extend Ki

Those four things are in fact only one thing because you can't properly do any one of them without doing the other three.

With regards to the push to the chest etc (what I'd probably refer to as the standing naturally ki test), it has, as with all ki soc tests got many different levels of skill and testing difficulty. May I ask you to describe which of these levels you have seen and tried in the Ki Soc derived dojo you've visited Mike? It would be helpful in dissecting this and determining if we really are just talking about the same thing here. Otherwise we'll just be going about this at cross purposes and probably start annoying each other.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

With regards to the push to the chest etc (what I'd probably refer to as the standing naturally ki test), it has, as with all ki soc tests got many different levels of skill and testing difficulty. May I ask you to describe which of these levels you have seen and tried in the Ki Soc derived dojo you've visited Mike? It would be helpful in dissecting this and determining if we really are just talking about the same thing here.

I discussed the levels I've encountered in Ki-Society stuff in other posts, Mike. I think we discussed this recently, IIRC, so it's pointless to re-hash it. When you say you "know others who can do it all", you either know some people who are at the extremely high levels like Chen Xiao Wang and others, or you are hyperbolizing. My inclination is to simply avoid getting into another wasted discussion once you say you teach something or already do all of it or have teachers that do it all. Either way it's a dead-end conversation... you either actually do already know everything or you're simply another of the many teachers who's sure he already knows everything. If you do know everything, it's pointless and rude to ask you again to show something indicating you do have all these skills; if you don't know everything it would be wasted time to get into a peeing contest. I say good luck to you.

I discussed the levels I've encountered in Ki-Society stuff in other posts, Mike. I think we discussed this recently, IIRC, so it's pointless to re-hash it.

I respectfully disagree with that, I haven't seen you mention it anywhere (although I may have missed something so I'll go back and look again, but you do have greater than 2000 posts to your name so....).

I'll offer the first three levels of 'standing naturally' here for you to look at if you wish to, and because others may be curious too:

1) Tester gently applies pressure between shoulder blades and also places hand on the front of the shoulder applying pressure in a straight horizontal line.

2)Same as test 1, only this time there is a fake or hesitation thrown in, tester stops just before they make contact and alters the test. This is to determine if the receiver is anticipating the incoming test, it is often failed because people try to resist the pressure and fight against it. When the tester stops short they often lean forwards into where the hand would have been. For the test on the front, tester aims to test at the shoulder, stops and lowers the hand to push on the ribs instead.

3) Tester stands 3-5 paces away, in front of partner, gives a vigorous tekubi shindo undo then walks in purposefully and places hand on the shoulder pushing straight ahead. Same from the rear only pressure is applied between the shoulder blades.

For all tests receiver should be standing shoulder width apart, should be standing upright and should have the knees unlocked and the heels hovering just above the floor.

Regards

Mike Haft

PS - I agree with you about the wasted discussion.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

I respectfully disagree with that, I haven't seen you mention it anywhere (although I may have missed something so I'll go back and look again, but you do have greater than 2000 posts to your name so....).

I'll offer the first three levels of 'standing naturally' here for you to look at if you wish to, and because others may be curious too:

1) Tester gently applies pressure between shoulder blades and also places hand on the front of the shoulder applying pressure in a straight horizontal line.

2)Same as test 1, only this time there is a fake or hesitation thrown in, tester stops just before they make contact and alters the test. This is to determine if the receiver is anticipating the incoming test, it is often failed because people try to resist the pressure and fight against it. When the tester stops short they often lean forwards into where the hand would have been. For the test on the front, tester aims to test at the shoulder, stops and lowers the hand to push on the ribs instead.

3) Tester stands 3-5 paces away, in front of partner, gives a vigorous tekubi shindo undo then walks in purposefully and places hand on the shoulder pushing straight ahead. Same from the rear only pressure is applied between the shoulder blades.

For all tests receiver should be standing shoulder width apart, should be standing upright and should have the knees unlocked and the heels hovering just above the floor.

This is sort of like the descriptions of O-Sensei's jo trick. In reality, I never saw a video of him fully pulling it off (he had to move almost immediately), the pushers appear to be pretty obviously adding a certain amount of fake to it, and so on. Yet, if you take the jo-trick and do it in some places, they're going to pull out 3 football linemen who will use all the force at their disposal. If you can't withstand this massive force, regardless of the fact that O-Sensei never could either, people will say "Oh, you can't do the jo-trick, so you're no where near the level of O-Sensei". If you see what I mean... and we're talking about things that are on videos.

In your descriptions, let me just be brief and say that I understand what you're getting at, but we might be picturing different forces. Any martial artist who uses jin/kokyu forces will get better and better. My comment to Ki-Society people was that I felt they could do better... at least the ones I felt.... and I encouraged them to keep looking. You considered that condescending.

In terms of "tests", they're good for learning. But after a certain point, you wind up with guys who can do the "tests" pretty well, but they have no other skills. That was the essence of what I've been saying to the Ki-Society people (but it's an encouragement... I think some of them are off to a good start, frankly). Just stopping at basic skills and "tests" is to leave money on the table, IMO. Instead of being able to hold a 30-pound push to the back, etc., why not start learning how to use the hara better and more articulately? Why not learn how to release power? And so on. The levels of testing ability can be limiting if that's what people focus on, IMO.

This is sort of like the descriptions of O-Sensei's jo trick. In reality, I never saw a video of him fully pulling it off (he had to move almost immediately), the pushers appear to be pretty obviously adding a certain amount of fake to it, and so on. Yet, if you take the jo-trick and do it in some places, they're going to pull out 3 football linemen who will use all the force at their disposal. If you can't withstand this massive force, regardless of the fact that O-Sensei never could either, people will say "Oh, you can't do the jo-trick, so you're no where near the level of O-Sensei". If you see what I mean... and we're talking about things that are on videos.

In your descriptions, let me just be brief and say that I understand what you're getting at, but we might be picturing different forces. Any martial artist who uses jin/kokyu forces will get better and better. My comment to Ki-Society people was that I felt they could do better... at least the ones I felt.... and I encouraged them to keep looking. You considered that condescending.

In terms of "tests", they're good for learning. But after a certain point, you wind up with guys who can do the "tests" pretty well, but they have no other skills. That was the essence of what I've been saying to the Ki-Society people (but it's an encouragement... I think some of them are off to a good start, frankly). Just stopping at basic skills and "tests" is to leave money on the table, IMO. Instead of being able to hold a 30-pound push to the back, etc., why not start learning how to use the hara better and more articulately? Why not learn how to release power? And so on. The levels of testing ability can be limiting if that's what people focus on, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said. I think it's easy to collect waza and not principles. I was talking to an iaido teacher not so long ago. He told me that he and some of his friends were told by their teacher in Japan that they had now learned all the waza in the Ryu. They all seemed pleased. Then their teacher said that none of them could do them properly, they were not so pleased. It seems that some of the guys there had the mistaken impression that just knowing what these things were meant that they had learnt them. So rather than learning iaido they were waza collectors. I think that a lot of the value of the training Dan talks about a lot is that it constantly challenges you to apply principles and stops you from being just another waza collector. We make an effort to teach aikido in a similar fashion, i.e. apply the principles in as many weird and wonderful ways as you can think of.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Mike (Ecosamurai) I'm curious what exercises in the Ki Society help develop the skills that the test you describe tests for?

The tests themselves are a learning tool in their own right. Trying to pass or fail them gives feedback on what you are doing, you do of course need a qualified instructor to talk to you about these things and explain to you what you need to be doing/feeling etc.. static drills aren't all that much use. My teacher said that when Tohei Sensei visitied the UK in the late 1980s someone there asked him the question: Can I ki test myself? Tohei's response was apparently to smile and say: "Of course not"

Amongst many many methods and exercises, there is also the Koichi Tohei warmup where you practice certain movements and exercises i.e. the rowing exercise and others. The tests assess your ability to do these things properly. Sadly there is no quick fix or shortcut you just have to feel it and practice it with an instructor who knows what they're doing. This is why I'm interested in the Akuzawa stuff that I've seen around lately, if he has a quicker method for teaching these things than I know of I would be fascinated to learn more about it.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Mike (Ecosamurai) I'm curious what exercises in the Ki Society help develop the skills that the test you describe tests for?

From what I've seen over the years, my opinion is that the Ki Society approach is somewhat murky and results in needlessly protracted run-up to any ability. Most people I work with can *do* a high percentage of the ki tests in a few hours, but of course being able to do them under light force is easy.... developing the body so that these skills are instinctive and can withstand heavier testing is a matter of practice by the student. My point, though, is that there are more direct ways to learn, particularly if what is actually happening is understood by the student.

One funny thing I've seen over the years with a *few* people is that when you lead them quickly and directly to doing the ki tests, get them to relax and sink the origin of their forces, hook up the body, etc.... they're not happy. They want it to be magic. Some of them have actually quit martial arts because what they'd thought was unachievable magic for years turned out to be something they could do. I often think they were the sort of people who wouldn't really want to join any club that would have them as a member.

Mike(Ecosamurai), could you describe, with as much detail as you can give, how you are approaching/training the rowing exercise and what, specifically, you're developing by training this?

Thanks!

When I do it I'm trying to feel my one point as it moves. I'm also trying to feel the ground. I dunno how to describe the feeling properly but you just kinda have to feel the ground making you powerful it isn't your arms or any kind of strength. So I suspect its pretty much what Mike talks about often and more eloquently than I do so refer to his posts.

I would also recommend trying it as often as possible with a partner or friend holding onto your wrists, their presence and weight gives you lots of feedback as to where you are moving from. I have a student who is >6' tall and about 250-260lbs and I can move him without difficulty when he holds my wrists even when he tries as hard as he possibly can to stop me. If you push through with your arms in any way it becomes impossible. The movement is: in this order: bend the knee> extend the wirsts> bend the knee> withdraw the wirsts. If you move your wrists before your knee your partner will stop you easily. If you do not keep your back straight and head up, your partner will be able to pull you off balance or push you off balance when you withdraw your wrists. If you do not have ki extension and weight underside you will find your partner smashes into your chest as your arms get pushed behind you (sometimes they collide with you anyway but this shouldn't be a problem if you are properly coordinated).

Hope that helps.

Mike

PS - I am now officially unplugging from aikiweb for a while, I hung around as long as I could this week but I've really got to work on some other stuff now.

Last edited by Ecosamurai : 03-22-2007 at 10:11 AM.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Mike(Ecosamurai), could you describe, with as much detail as you can give, how you are approaching/training the rowing exercise and what, specifically, you're developing by training this?

Thanks!

Since I'm packing to leave on a trip in a couple of hours, I can't spend the time anymore today to get involved in a long discussion. Basically, people should remember this about any exercise and any technique: any exercise (including fune-kogi-undo) should contain practice for all the components you can already do. So fune-kogi-undo can be an exercise for simple back and forth using correct jin (for a beginner) or it can contain breathing, power store-and-release, condensing power, and everything else, for someone advanced.