> >I'm going to be throwing a zillion ninja or so against my PC's. Are
> >there any good books with pre-generated ninjas (or other sorts of generic
> >goons) so I don't have to spend more time with my spreadsheets?
>
> There are some pretty good ninjas in the back of "Watchers of the
> Dragon" -- *if* you can get a copy of that.

>It's a bit odd, and to me Independent has only dubious levels of usefulness
>in a game anyway. What it really says is that you will someday lose the
item
>and the associated points: otherwise, in what way is it limiting? I don't
>tend to use it at all when I run, or very rarely in specific ways.
>
>JAJ, GP

It causes a character to act differently. Losing the item is so important
that they can be placed in situations where they will be at a disadvantage
tactically. Granted that better fits the definition of a Psy Lim, but still
true.

>I see Iron man;s powers as Only In Hero ID.
>If his armor is stolen the baddy will not have access to ironman's powers
>but neither will he.

Which is also precisely what a Personal Focus is. The thing that makes Iron
Man's powers possibly Only In Hero ID is the difficulty of removing the
armor once it is on, not the universality (or lack thereof) of it. Once, an
explosive device was used to try to remove the helmet. It failed. Since an
Inaccessable Focus needs to be removable reasonably in a turn (or
thereabouts), it could be argued that it is not a Focus.

However, that doesn't really matter much: the discussion is about whether it
should be Independent, not whether it should be a Focus or not. You
presumably agree that it should not be Independent, since you'd make it
OIHID, so that's another comment in that direction.

I'm wondering if it's okay to post some of the characters from my Canadian
campaign; I've got a few hero teams, as well as some villains (including
Invictus' private cadre). Some are adapted from Champions sourcebooks, but
most are my own creations.

>Generally, no. Part of the tradition of battlesuit characters is that
>they are using proprietary technology that only they can
>build/use/understand, or the suits are individually calibrated or fitted
>to a specific user and are useless for anyone else. Thus, it is not
>equally useful for everyone, which is one of the criteria for an
>Independent power (I know that a Universal Focus also acheives this
>effect, which is why Independent powers are always bought through Foci).
>Furthermore, an Independent power literally has "...no connection to the
>character in any way." (BBB, p. 108)

Not always bought as a focus. Independent powers can and occasionally are
used to represent permanent effects that are placed on other characters or
places.

>> It's a bit odd, and to me Independent has only dubious levels of
usefulness
>> in a game anyway. What it really says is that you will someday lose the
>item
>> and the associated points: otherwise, in what way is it limiting?
>
>Yeah... That's how I felt about it... But say a character's hunter stole
the
>suit, then later the suit was recovered?

Thing is, while you could recover the suit once, or ten times, at some point
in the character's career, the suit will be lost for good if the limitation
is ever to be used against you. Without Independent, this is not the case:
the points are always with you. If it's Independent, those points are going
to leave the character at some point. If you take Independent, you'll regret
it, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of your
adventuring career.

Ahem. Sorry about that. If you don't take Independent, you will always have
the points unless the GM goes and does something with them. You can lose the
armor and recover it, or lose the armor and rebuild it, or lose the armor
and change character conceptions. With Independent, if you ever lose the
armor permanently (as you will almost certainly do), you have no recourse:
the points are gone. That isn't so bad if everyone else does that type of
thing, too, but if you're the only one you'll be quite a bit behind. If you
like the challenge of having fewer points than the others, this might be the
way to go, but otherwise it's just too horrible...

>>That is what his hunters are trying to do... Take away his armor. Maybe
I
>>should make more than one suit... How do you listers handle the
limitation?
>
>
>Do you expect or intend the character to permanently and irrevocably lose
>suits in the course of the game, or will the suits be rebuilt later
>(possibly better than the lost one)? Permanently losing it, and the points
>that go into making it (making this character fewer points than the other
>characters in the game, and thus less powerful) is what is supposed to
>happen with Independent.

Hmm, I swear I don't remember this part of Independent in any incarnation
of the Hero System Rules. This is a common interpretation, but there is no
mandate that characters with Independant powers must lose them. That
danger should always exist, and should frequently be threatened, but the GM
is not compelled to steal, destroy, or otherwise deprive the character of
anything with the Independant limitation. (This reminds me of a common
misconception with Summoning: that any creature Summoned must be hostile to
the summoner.)

> Hmm, I swear I don't remember this part of Independent in any incarnation
> of the Hero System Rules. This is a common interpretation, but there is no
> mandate that characters with Independant powers must lose them. That
> danger should always exist, and should frequently be threatened, but the GM
> is not compelled to steal, destroy, or otherwise deprive the character of
> anything with the Independant limitation. (This reminds me of a common
> misconception with Summoning: that any creature Summoned must be hostile to
> the summoner.)

I think the difference is this. If Independant means the character never
looses the powers for good, it's just a much more cost effective version
of a focus. Yes, it will be taken away sometimes, but nothing worse than
that. Just IMHO, though. The rules don't explicitly state that the
points *must* be lost, only that they can be.

The most common misconception I see with summoning is the assumption the
creature will automatically obey the summoner.;)

>I'm wondering if it's okay to post some of the characters from my Canadian
>campaign; I've got a few hero teams, as well as some villains (including
>Invictus' private cadre). Some are adapted from Champions sourcebooks, but
>most are my own creations.
>
>Or are characters generally kept off the mailing list?

Oh by all means, go ahead and post! We've had many characters posted here in
the past. Just be prepared forus to pick it apart all in the name of
constructive critisism. ^_^

- -Logan

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
-Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --

As usual, I've put off planning my next role-playing adventure for far too long, and need some quick ideas, if you don't mind helping me out. (I know, I apologize for being a lazy slug; I have no excuse!)

The campaign is set in 1936, in a city not unlike San Francisco. (Some of you may recall San Frederico from my old Superworld campaign). The players are members of a club called the Odysseus League, whose main requirement for membership is that they have survived a shipwreck or similar disaster. The two main villains they've encountered are the evil Ying Wu (think Son of Fu Manchu) and a mob boss who is a reincarnated Aztec deity. Currently, they are trying to find an antidote which will bring the League's founders out of a state of suspended animation.

I want to have a bit of a break from the current plotline now, and so I encourage you to send me any ideas that you have for "Fun With Nazis". One of the current players is being hunted by the Nazis because they believe him to be a perfect Aryan ubermensch, and wish to use him for breeding experiments, so there's my hook. What I need are some crazy schemes to catch him, and other assorted wackiness involving Nazi secret agents. There's probably an evil Nazi scientist spearheading this effort, and a zeppelin should probably be involved, just cuz. However, don't let any of that restrict your creativity. If you don't have anything to send, that's OK; I'm just casting out a net and hauling in whatever I can catch.

At 10:47 PM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm wondering if it's okay to post some of the characters from my Canadian
>campaign; I've got a few hero teams, as well as some villains (including
>Invictus' private cadre). Some are adapted from Champions sourcebooks, but
>most are my own creations.
>
>Or are characters generally kept off the mailing list?
>
>Glen
>
>
I doubt anyone would be greatly offended; lots of people do it.
Be ready to be nit picked. ("Your math is wrong" "_I_ would have built it
this way..." "You can't do thus-and-such" "Yes you can" "No, you can't"
"Hero says you can" "Hero doesn't say you can't. There's a difference."

I saw an Inside the Music on VH1 about KISS. Apparently during the late
70's Marvel put out a KISS comic portraying them as superheros. And a
year or so later a KISS movie was made with them as superheros.

My question is what was the movie's name (I didn't catch it) and Where
can I get a copy

At 01:57 PM 12/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
>At 10:14 AM 12/2/98 -0600, gilberg@ou.edu wrote:
>> Anyway. I need to make it up to Calagary to visit a friend who
>>escaped Illinois for that fair city. ("And I leave my entire fortune of 10
>>million dollars to the people of Calagary so they can afford to move
>>somewhere decent." Name the comedy group and title.) Meanwhile, I escaped
>>Illinois for...Oklahoma. I think I got the lesser deal.
>
>The Frantics. It's one of their "Boot to the Head" numbers, and the line
>follows "And to my lawyer, who helped me prepare this will, I leave NOT a
>boot to the head, but a live rabid Tasmanian devil to be placed in his
>trousers."
>
>I've often taken to using "Ed Gruberman" to describe poorly designed martial
>artist characters. :]
>
>
I am looking for two WAVs: "boottothehead" As said by the master and "HEY!
You booted me in the head!" as said by Ed Gruberman. I have the bit on
tape, but cannot get it on CD, and my system isn't good at getting WAVs off
the input jacks.

Chickenman
A novelty toy designer who was sacked for his last design, the exploding
egg. He decided to get his revenge on the world which has mocked him with a
vast array of themed creations.

Wears a chickensuit and has many themed gadgets, eggbeater of doom,
exploding eggs, the chicken scratcher, ....

top heavy
Was an experiment by an outlaw scientific group who discovered a pattern
of convergence of female superheroes and managed to accelerate the
convergence. She has amazing physical abilities but suffers the drawback
that she cannot stand up or move due to an unfortunate secondary mutation.
(idea from young justice)
Of course this didn't prevent the cabal from looking to start a breeding
program with her and their accelerated male super hero when they had
succeeded with him. Unfortunately Captain No-Bulge rendered those plans
futile.

Matter Eater Lad - hold on, I'm sure he's been published. <g>

Captain Queezy
Has superleap, flight and the like but gets severe motion sickness.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

At 06:15 PM 12/2/98 EST, Leuszler@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 12/2/98 6:12:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ctaylor@viser.net
>writes:
>
>> Cause if he does, and somebody takes the armor or destroys it (granted a
>> very unlikely event) he has to pay XPS to get it back, a daunting task for
>> ANY hero. Usually Independent is used only for Heroic games, to represent
>> magic items such as wands and other things.
>
>That is what his hunters are trying to do... Take away his armor. Maybe I
>should make more than one suit... How do you listers handle the limitation?

Guy Hoyle writes:
> On 12/2/98, at 4:32 PM, James Jandebeur wrote:
> >>That is what his hunters are trying to do... Take away his armor. Maybe
> I
> >>should make more than one suit... How do you listers handle the
> limitation?
> >
> >Do you expect or intend the character to permanently and irrevocably lose
> >suits in the course of the game, or will the suits be rebuilt later
> >(possibly better than the lost one)? Permanently losing it, and the points
> >that go into making it (making this character fewer points than the other
> >characters in the game, and thus less powerful) is what is supposed to
> >happen with Independent.
>
> Hmm, I swear I don't remember this part of Independent in any incarnation
> of the Hero System Rules. This is a common interpretation, but there is no
> mandate that characters with Independant powers must lose them. That
> danger should always exist, and should frequently be threatened, but the GM
> is not compelled to steal, destroy, or otherwise deprive the character of
> anything with the Independant limitation. (This reminds me of a common
> misconception with Summoning: that any creature Summoned must be hostile to
> the summoner.)

That was, in fact, what was on my mind. Speaking personally, and I
know this is atypical, I'd tend to use Independent for things that
could be stolen that the GM wasn't under any obligation to return. It
adds a certain edge knowing that your points don't have plot immunity.

Branching out into wider discussion...

One of the genre conventions is power loss; sometimes it's temporary,
but sometime's it's forever. Powergirl in the DCU just got somewhat
depowered for no good reason; Donna Troy is constantly getting her
powers taken away, albeit it only lasts until the next writer has a
clever idea. It's an excellent source of tragedy, if that's what
you want in your game.

>I'm wondering if it's okay to post some of the characters from my Canadian
>campaign; I've got a few hero teams, as well as some villains (including
>Invictus' private cadre). Some are adapted from Champions sourcebooks, but
>most are my own creations.
>
>Or are characters generally kept off the mailing list?
>
>Glen
>

nahh go for it. it'll make a nice change from all this canadian rock-music
*jk*.
actually, people do it all the time, it's a good way to get feedback if you
can hack some constructive criticism. .

> I'm wondering if it's okay to post some of the characters from my Canadian
> campaign; I've got a few hero teams, as well as some villains (including
> Invictus' private cadre). Some are adapted from Champions sourcebooks, but
> most are my own creations.
>
> Or are characters generally kept off the mailing list?

I have posted some ... uhm... uhm... 200(?) or more characters to this
list over the years. Everyone from Grimjack to the cast of The Princess
Bride (not to mention a mess of anime and manga characters). So, yes,
characters are welcome.

BTW: Are people interested in seeing any more of the cast from Dragonball
Z? I ask because the point totals are rapidly hitting the realm of the
insane... (Read: 975 + points...)

> It causes a character to act differently. Losing the item is so important
> that they can be placed in situations where they will be at a disadvantage
> tactically. Granted that better fits the definition of a Psy Lim, but still
> true.

As you say, better a Psych Lim, like, "Obsessed with keeping item".
Still not really worth the -2 and not what the limitation says, though.

I don't know if it was mentioned: if it was, I missed it. You could also
give him the infamous Damage Shield BOECV: if a telepath invades his
mind, that telepath is likely to be mentally damaged by what is found
there...

JAJ, GP

Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> So, if in order to simulate the Joker's deranged mind, I give him damage
> reduction, what do people consider a 'realistic' level?
>
> I was thinking 50%. The question is, (since I don't have TUM handy), how
> much does that cost?
>
> I was also thinking that the DR should be good only vs Mental Illusions,
> Telepahty and Mind Control. Is -1/2 a good value for that?
>
> Thanks for the suggestions, BTW, I have done some lterations to the
> design.
>
> ***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
> * Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
> ***************************************************************************

> Hmm, I swear I don't remember this part of Independent in any incarnation
> of the Hero System Rules. This is a common interpretation, but there is no
> mandate that characters with Independant powers must lose them.

That is true: it is not so mandated. What it does say is that the points
are seperate from the character: once lost, they are gone forever.
However, as someone (Wayne Shaw?) said, it's the Gold Kryptonite
problem: if you take the Limitation: I CAN lose all my powers
permanently, and you never lose all your powers, you are getting the
Limitation for nothing. You are getting the benefit of a full -2
limitation, at that. So, yes, while it does not say you must lose it, it
is a common and not unreasonable assumption that this is what it
ultimately means.

> That
> danger should always exist, and should frequently be threatened, but the GM
> is not compelled to steal, destroy, or otherwise deprive the character of
> anything with the Independant limitation.

And if it isn't ultimately taken away, it is not much different from an
Irreplacable Focus. Unless and until the GM lets me use those points for
something else, I can do nothing if I lose that focus. The GM is within
rights to take that away for extended periods of time, so how is this -2
of any value if you aren't going to lose it? It makes you more paranoid,
which is a Psych Lim and should be taken as such.

> (This reminds me of a common
> misconception with Summoning: that any creature Summoned must be hostile to
> the summoner.)

Well, they do say that it is decidedly not friendly and must be somehow
coaxed to do what you want. Which reduces the number of uses for the
power. Oh, well.

Not only can you download a WAV of the entire sketch. There is one short WAV
of just the master saying "boottothehead" and the accompanying sound effect.
'SH-ZOOMP!!'

- -Logan

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
-Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --

>At 01:57 PM 12/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>At 10:14 AM 12/2/98 -0600, gilberg@ou.edu wrote:
>>> Anyway. I need to make it up to Calagary to visit a friend who
>>>escaped Illinois for that fair city. ("And I leave my entire fortune of
10
>>>million dollars to the people of Calagary so they can afford to move
>>>somewhere decent." Name the comedy group and title.) Meanwhile, I
escaped
>>>Illinois for...Oklahoma. I think I got the lesser deal.
>>
>>The Frantics. It's one of their "Boot to the Head" numbers, and the line
>>follows "And to my lawyer, who helped me prepare this will, I leave NOT a
>>boot to the head, but a live rabid Tasmanian devil to be placed in his
>>trousers."
>>
>>I've often taken to using "Ed Gruberman" to describe poorly designed
martial
>>artist characters. :]
>>
>>
>I am looking for two WAVs: "boottothehead" As said by the master and "HEY!
>You booted me in the head!" as said by Ed Gruberman. I have the bit on
>tape, but cannot get it on CD, and my system isn't good at getting WAVs off
>the input jacks.
>

> That was, in fact, what was on my mind. Speaking personally, and I
> know this is atypical, I'd tend to use Independent for things that
> could be stolen that the GM wasn't under any obligation to return. It
> adds a certain edge knowing that your points don't have plot immunity.

That's precisely right. However, if the game goes on for any length of
time and none of those items laying around with their -2 limitations
never get permanently lost, it loses its edge. So again, you're going to
end up with either leaving them a -2 limitation that doesn't limit them,
or they are going to lose some of those points. It would be difficult at
best to play up this limitation to the extent indicated by the points
saved (unless it's a minor item) without it being lost.

My opinion of the limitation is simply this: it is either not worth the
- -2 limitation because it isn't that limiting to the power or it's not
worth it because it is worth far more, depending on a variety of
circumstances including the point cost of the item.

I am also at a loss to figure out what it represents, outside of minor
items. My mighty mystical sword is a signature item: it is part of my
character, and is not Independent. The sword that is needed to slay the
dragon is a plot device: it's not bought with points at all, unless I
decide to "adopt" it and then it's still not Independent if it becomes
my signature item. If I am obsessed with keeping an item, it's a Psych
Lim. The only one that Independent gives an edge to is the player, and I
don't role-play to increase my anxiety. I'll role-play anxiety, but why
do I want the threat of my character being wrecked hanging over my head?

Ahem. Not that I'm so obsessed with losing points on my character that
this causes significant anxiety. (-;

Independent can certainly add to a character in small things, but
putting your primary abilities like a Powered Armor suit on it is
inappropriate.

> One of the genre conventions is power loss; sometimes it's temporary,
> but sometime's it's forever. Powergirl in the DCU just got somewhat
> depowered for no good reason; Donna Troy is constantly getting her
> powers taken away, albeit it only lasts until the next writer has a
> clever idea. It's an excellent source of tragedy, if that's what

> you want in your game.

Comic book characters, as you say, sometimes get de-powered on a
permanent basis. I tend to think of this as more the equivalent of
moving to a new campaign rather than a normal event in the character's
development. Like in Power Girl's case: a new writer took over the
character, and suddenly she's got restrictions that she never had
before. This can be seen as similar to moving an experienced character
you want to play to a starting game. Something's got to give.

As far as really losing powers as part of character growth: if it's
really permanent, for game balance reasons it's reasonable to allow
those points to be spent on buying down disads, buying skills that you
have time to study (and need to to stay in the game), new powers replace
the old, and so on. Compensating in this way is also very genre.

>Okay this is an odd request.
>
>I saw an Inside the Music on VH1 about KISS. Apparently during the late
>70's Marvel put out a KISS comic portraying them as superheros. And a
>year or so later a KISS movie was made with them as superheros.
>
>My question is what was the movie's name (I didn't catch it) and Where
>can I get a copy
>
>Thanks
>Tim Statler >tstatler@igateway.net
>

>I saw an Inside the Music on VH1 about KISS. Apparently during the late
>>70's Marvel put out a KISS comic portraying them as superheros. And a
>>year or so later a KISS movie was made with them as superheros.
>>
>>My question is what was the movie's name (I didn't catch it) and Where
>>can I get a copy

The Movie was "Kiss meets the Phantom" (Of the Amusement Park) it was your
basic bad late 70's movie. The odd part is Peter Chris was so wasted they
couldn't use his dialog so it was all dubbed in later by another actor.

Marvel did two Kiss comics, one had DR Doom trying to get the Talisman which
made Kiss the who they were. I can't remember who was in the other one.

And to make this on topic, I used Kiss as a super hero team in my first
Champions game. Considering one of Ace's powers was the ability to teleport
any where, it seemed logical at the time.

martian manhunter morphed his brain into a copy of the joker's in the 'rock
of ages' bit. he went pretty wiggy. It is a good idea and, and decide that
even if you *do* read his mind, you probably won't figure out what the hell
he's on about. How do languages relate to telepathy again?

>I don't know if it was mentioned: if it was, I missed it. You could also
>give him the infamous Damage Shield BOECV: if a telepath invades his
>mind, that telepath is likely to be mentally damaged by what is found
>there...
>
>JAJ, GP
>
>Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>
>> So, if in order to simulate the Joker's deranged mind, I give him damage
>> reduction, what do people consider a 'realistic' level?
>>
>> I was thinking 50%. The question is, (since I don't have TUM handy), how
>> much does that cost?
>>
>> I was also thinking that the DR should be good only vs Mental Illusions,
>> Telepahty and Mind Control. Is -1/2 a good value for that?
>>

James Jandebeur wrote:
> It's a bit odd, and to me Independent has only dubious levels of usefulness
> in a game anyway. What it really says is that you will someday lose the item
> and the associated points: otherwise, in what way is it limiting? I don't
> tend to use it at all when I run, or very rarely in specific ways.

I have used it once as ref. The players provided a big service to Odin
by finding and returning the cask of ancient winters hence stopping the
onset of the fimbulwinter. As reward the heroes where given gifts of
"great" magic, (foci with independent). If they lost the items, Odin
wasn't going to give them another.
- --
Rick Holding

If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?