I've started this thread because I want SHIN to explain what his problem with evolution is. I assume that, using his usual brief style and a few smileys he can do it in less than a paragraph. But I didn't want to hijack the thread he mentioned it in. Hence this new one.

mhaberling, you are more than welcome to participate in any way you wish. If SHIN and I get off on a tangent, we could either create yet another thread or do a debate in our debate room. Since he hasn't responded in any way to this thread, he may not even wish to participate. Some folks are happy with just dissing things and not actually discussing them.

This thread was started because he made it clear (though it may have been a joke. I doubt it) that accepting evolution requires as much faith as accepting his god. Since there are those of us here on this site who disagree somewhat vehemently, a discussion on that specific topic was suggested. Since any atheist can join in on this discussion, so too can any theist. I clarify on the assumption that you would like to make actual contributions and not remarks of the sort SHIN offered on the subject.

We will disagree. That's fine. We'll tell you why we feel the way we do. We'll tell you what sorts of science influence our view on the subject. You can tell us what sorts of religious thought/doctrine/whatever influences your view on the subject. It could be fun.

parkingplaces... i was just wondering if i could do a shin vs. atheist commentary( kinda describing it as a boxing mach) but i think thats considermed.trolling so i was.asking for permission bevause i think it would be entertaining

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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

I understand mhaberling. I was just making it clear that you can participate any way you want. Do be warned, we consider commentary something to respond to as much as any other contribution.

Since SHIN doesn't seem too interested, would you like to have a discussion in our debate room with me on the subject? It wouldn't necessarily have to be an actual debate. I could be an effort from both sides to state their POV on the issues. You wouldn't be as much fun as some, since you aren't a creationist. But you have said you think there are holes in the theory that you consider serious.

If the two of us debate or otherwise discuss the issue, nobody else is allowed to participate directly. However, a commentary thread will run concurrently where anyone can give their two cents worth.

This is just an idea. You are allowed to decline without prejudice, as a lawyer would say. (I'm not one, don't worry).

I understand mhaberling. I was just making it clear that you can participate any way you want. Do be warned, we consider commentary something to respond to as much as any other contribution.

Since SHIN doesn't seem too interested, would you like to have a discussion in our debate room with me on the subject? It wouldn't necessarily have to be an actual debate. I could be an effort from both sides to state their POV on the issues. You wouldn't be as much fun as some, since you aren't a creationist. But you have said you think there are holes in the theory that you consider serious.

If the two of us debate or otherwise discuss the issue, nobody else is allowed to participate directly. However, a commentary thread will run concurrently where anyone can give their two cents worth.

This is just an idea. You are allowed to decline without prejudice, as a lawyer would say. (I'm not one, don't worry).

i think that would be really interesting but i have to warn you with christmas appriaching there may be some delay in my responses

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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

We can do it after Christmas, or even after New Years. Starting just a few days before a big holiday probably isn't the best idea. Or we could correspond now via PM about what to discuss and set some ground rules and get some of the preliminary stuff out of the way so we can jump right into it once the time is right.

Ok. This is going to be a walk in the park... Since u skeptics always like to answer theists by asking more questions, I shall do the same on this thread. All these questions are from me. Imagine if I had access to all the good questions, made over the years by all the intelligent theists out there... lolz... u get the point...

Let's begin shall we?...

1º Why are monkeys still here?

2º Why is the universe so complex?

3º Why women?

4º Why the necessity for food?

5º Why is there right from wrong/good from evil?

6º Why emotions & consciousness/why didn't we remain like the animals(unable to choose right from wrong)?

7º Why ability to reproduce?

8º Why is there only one habitable planet?

9º Why does sex feel so good?

10º Why are the opposite sexes attracted to each other?

11º Why do we have dominion over the animals?

12º How do you explain Polonium 218?

13º Why life/why didn't we remain atoms or rocks or whatever...?

14º Why has macro-evilution never been observed in human history?

15º Why is the oldest tree only 4000 years old(coinciding with the flood)?

16º Where are all the transitional fossils from the millions & billions & gazillions of animals & humans that were supposedly evolving over millions & billions & gazillions of years?

17º Why can no example be given for a single genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the beneficial information in the genome?

18º Can someone document just one 100% verifiable transitionary fossil that proves that one species actually changed into another completely different species?

19º What about the population problem with evilution?

20º How did new biochemical pathways(which involve multiple enzymes working together in sequence) originate?

21º How do you explain the Fibonacci sequence/the number "e" & the number Pi?

22º Why do all humans, at least once in their life, wonder about a supreme being?

&... BAM! Poor little skeptics... I am so very sorry for this. I didn't want to create this thread, lest I should embarass you. But hey! u should have thought about that beforehand. Ever heard the saying : "be careful what u wish for?" haha

& last but not least, here's a 47 second video you all should enjoy...

PS : I, & only I, will decide on the validity of each person's answer. I wasn't going to create this thread but since someone clearly wanted to be embarassed, I shall create this same thread on the other 2 forums. I have a feeling this thread will remain at the top of the list for a looong time... I'll understand, if from now on, all the heathens of this forum hate me.

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

In the right corner... the knower of truth, defender of the word, servant of the Almighty God! He has been making atheists cry for over 20 years... SHIIIIIIN KAAAAAIIIIIRRRRIIIIII!

In the left corner... the man of logic and science, if he doesnt see it he wont believe it..he evoloved from an ape just so he could kick theist ass. the grumpy old man of logic... PARRRRKKKIIIIING PLAAAAAAAAAAACEEEEESSSS!

I've started this thread because I want SHIN to explain what his problem with evolution is. I assume that, using his usual brief style and a few smileys he can do it in less than a paragraph. But I didn't want to hijack the thread he mentioned it in. Hence this new one.

Because we still have bananas! But I know what you're thinking, monkeys shouldn't be here if humans evolved from them, right? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha...damn boy, did you get your education from an actual monkey?

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2º Why is the universe so complex?

It's not. It's tons, and tons, of empty space - like that place between your ears when it comes to evolution.

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3º Why women?

We call it sexual reproduction.

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4º Why the necessity for food?

It is the basis of the energy that living cells need to survive.

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5º Why is there right from wrong/good from evil?

What the fuck does this have to do with evolution?

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6º Why emotions & consciousness/why didn't we remain like the animals(unable to choose right from wrong)?

We are animals, and plenty of species show consciousness and emotion. Ever looked at a puppy dog?

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7º Why ability to reproduce?

To propagate our species, like all other species. Is there some other way, or should we all come from dirt and ribs?

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8º Why is there only one habitable planet?

It's the only one we know of. Doesn't mean there are not many more. What does this have to do with evolution?

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9º Why does sex feel so good?

From an evolutionary perspective, it is to propagate our species. If sex felt bad, who would bother?

It has. You just don't understand the definitions involved in the theory. Try the children's science books in the local bookstore before engaging on this again.

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15º Why is the oldest tree only 4000 years old(coinciding with the flood)?

What flood? If you mena the worldwide flood from the Bible, you 'll need to show ANY evidence that it ever happened. At this point, there is none. BTW, there are colonies of trees estimated at 80,000 years old. WIKI.

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16º Where are all the transitional fossils from the millions & billions & gazillions of animals & humans that were supposedly evolving over millions & billions & gazillions of years?

There is no such thing as a transitional fossil. That term went away when scientists got tired of answering this absolutely stupid question.

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17º Why can no example be given for a single genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the beneficial information in the genome?

SHIN, tell me what a genome is, and what a mutation is, and why they are related. I'm guessing you have no idea, which makes me wonder why you asked this question.

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18º Can someone document just one 100% verifiable transitionary fossil that proves that one species actually changed into another completely different species?

Again, there are no transitional fossils. There are species that evolve from ancestor species, and over time, the differences between them are too vast to be able to clearly see any similarities. This is evolution 101, and I recommend you get a children's book to start with.

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19º What about the population problem with evilution?

Explain the population problem? Do you know what a population is, and what it means in the theory?

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20º How did new biochemical pathways(which involve multiple enzymes working together in sequence) originate?

Oh FFS, do you know what a biochemical pathway is, and how it relates to the question you are asking?

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21º How do you explain the Fibonacci sequence/the number "e" & the number Pi?

WTF does this have to do with evolution? Where do you get this claptrap nonsense? Are you serious? bwa ha ha ha ah

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22º Why do all humans, at least once in their life, wonder about a supreme being?

Humans are curious, and what makes you think all humans do this?

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&... BAM! Poor little skeptics... I am so very sorry for this. I didn't want to create this thread, lest I should embarass you. But hey! u should have thought about that beforehand. Ever heard the saying : "be careful what u wish for?" haha

Don't be too sorry, you're obviously not too embarrassed to post this drivel.

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PS : I, & only I, will decide on the validity of each person's answer. I wasn't going to create this thread but since someone clearly wanted to be embarassed, I shall create this same thread on the other 2 forums. I have a feeling this thread will remain at the top of the list for a looong time... I'll understand, if from now on, all the heathens of this forum hate me.

No, you won't. You will sit back and watch every bit of this nonsense be properly trashed, as it deserves to be.

In the right corner... the knower of truth, defender of the word, servant of the Almighty God! He has been making atheists cry for over 20 years... SHIIIIIIN KAAAAAIIIIIRRRRIIIIII!

In the left corner... the man of logic and science, if he doesnt see it he wont believe it..he evoloved from an ape just so he could kick theist ass. the grumpy old man of logic... PARRRRKKKIIIIING PLAAAAAAAAAAACEEEEESSSS!

ok boys i want a clean fight...

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Presuppositionalism wins everytime

Nietzsche : "Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

Shin, did you post this here first when challenged, or at ATT first? If this thread is to be one about evolution, then try to stick to the actual topic of 'evolution', several of these are waaaay off topic.

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

Those are great questions, Shin. And I certain appreciate the way that Jetson broke them down, and addressed them one by one. Honestly, my head was spinning just reading the list.

At first I was going to say that we still have monkeys for the same reasons that we still have bacteria. Some species continue to evolve and change and become increasingly complex. And some species, in some environments, are just suited to be what they are. Mutations occur, of course, but unless those mutations impact on how effectively a species survives and reproduces and in some cases, how successfully it raises/protects its young, then those mutations do not become dominant.

I wanted to try and explain that in a way that makes sense. I am certainly not a scientist, and if any scientists here would like to correct me, please feel free to do so.

But I really wanted to talk about anemones. You see, there are some evolutionary leaps that are really hard to grasp. And the transition from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction is one of those really big leaps. The gap between plants and animals seems so huge. But that is why anemones are so cool. They are kind of like plants, and they are kind of like animals. And usually the reproduce sexually, but sometimes, they just break a piece of themselves off, and create an exact duplicate of themselves. Maybe if you took the time to think a little bit about anemones, several of the questions on your list would answer themselves.

In terms of your tree question, I had to google this, because I knew I had heard it before. And the 4000 year part needs to be examined in context.

A clonal colony can survive for much longer than an individual tree. A colony of 47,000 quaking aspen trees (nicknamed "Pando"), covering 106 acres (43 ha) in the Fishlake National Forest of the United States, is considered one of the oldest and largest organisms in the world. The colony has been estimated to be 80,000 years old, although tree ring samples date individual, above-ground, trees at only an average of about 130 years.[1][2][3][4] A colony of Huon pine trees covering 1 hectare (2.5 acres) on Mount Read, Tasmania is estimated to be around 10,000 years old, as determined by DNA samples taken from pollen collected from the sediment of a nearby lake. Individual trees in this group date to no more than 4,000 years old, as determined by tree ring samples.[5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees

I hope that was helpful. The whole world flood thing is silly, really. I do not doubt that there were horrible, major floods, the kill masses of people and destroyed ecosystems. But if every plant was destroyed in your flood 4000 years ago, then what did the herbivores eat when they got off the ark? For that matter, what did the carnivores eat while they were on the ark? But I digress.

I'm not going to attempt to answer all of your questions. I'll leave that to the scientists here. But I reserve the right to peek back in and address a few random questions from time to time.

... I'll understand, if from now on, all the heathens of this forum hate me.

Not at all! I honestly find it really fascinating. You are clearly a smart guy. Your list represents a huge range of questions in a wide variety of fields. If this list is original, I awed by the fact that you can ask such good questions, and still find yourself unable to access readily available information to answer those questions.

If the list is some Christian meme that I am unaware of, it is even more fascinating. It feels like the death throws, the desperation of a worldview that knows it is on the decline, and is attempting to use the language and style of the worldview that is replacing it.

I can honestly say that I have learned quite a bit from this list of questions.

Shin, did you post this here first when challenged, or at ATT first? If this thread is to be one about evolution, then try to stick to the actual topic of 'evolution', several of these are waaaay off topic.

I posted them all at the same time why?

I actually made sure to only post questions that directly or indireclty concern evilution. Had I posted questions regarding the big bang theory or atheism in general, the post would simply have been too long...

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Presuppositionalism wins everytime

Nietzsche : "Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

Shin, did you post this here first when challenged, or at ATT first? If this thread is to be one about evolution, then try to stick to the actual topic of 'evolution', several of these are waaaay off topic.

I posted them all at the same time why?

I actually made sure to only post questions that directly or indireclty concern evilution. Had I posted questions regarding the big bang theory or atheism in general, the post would simply have been too long...

No, some of those questions have NOTHING AT ALL to do with evOlution. You can't even spell the word correctly!

BTW, when creationists blow their wad trying to debunk evolution, they almost ALWAYS conflate evolution with all other sorts of things unrelated. It's a common mistake, so don't feel bad.

Oh oh! can I go my Joe plumber stuff! And please shin, do stop the crappy spelling of evolution, makes you look like some second rate novelist discussing so called intelligent fuck ups.

1 face palm, because we evolved along with them.2 holy crap!! because it is its fucking huge !!!3 why the hell not mate, their hot!!!!4 when I am hungry I eat, when I am tired, I sleep..5 even monkeys know this. 6 because we develop them, my dog, demonstrates new emotions every day. I know when he is happy, sad, bored, satisfied. 7 Evolutionary development see 9, because I like it. I like it allot.8 evolutionary development, humans use pheromones to lure.9 we don't, we exist along with them, we share the same, a shit load of the same DNA, just because they don't write or preach, Does not mean they do not have feelings on the subject.10 planetary evolution, see geology.11 look at mars, the moons of Saturn Jupiter . 14 it has 15 you have never been to Vancouver island then?16 lots of… just becomes poop soil. Shit man don't you recycle?17 it may not be needed why is it that we need to be better stronger faster?If you asked me we have evolved to be lazier.18 it has never happened in your life time it takes billions of generations before it looks different.19 use birth control. how hard is that? 20 fucked if I know I am not a biologist. 21 shity at math, sorry.22 because we have a desire to imagine many things that are not real, we write books, music, create things that are unimportant to life Except, in the moment of sampling these things that we wish to be true.

I love these stupid tests there easy and I don't have to think to hard... like at work.

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The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

PS : I, & only I, will decide on the validity of each person's answer.

Then why the fuck post it this thread to a bunch of atheists. This translates into you saying that you're not going to care what others have to say, since no matter how accurate of an answer you get you'll just ignore it like you always do.

Shin, what's your point? What's your purpose? Is this how you play? Giving a list of 22 questions that you think will trump atheists, then end it by saying that you and only you will decide whether the answer you get is valid.

As for question number 8, who says there is only one habitable planet. In our Solar System there is only one, true. But the habitable zone is very wide, in our Solar System. In our Solar System it's 3 AUs, which is about 278,867,421[1] Anything outside of the habitable zone is either too hot to support life (human/animal form), or too cold. For example: the temperature on Venus is about 700o F (however the temp on Mars is about 70o F, but because of its current atmosphere it cannot support life, but in no way does that make your question valid since NASA is currently working on discovering if there was indeed life on Mars. And don't forget, life doesn't need to be civilizations like us. It includes bacteria and other microorganisms)

EDIT: On yeah, and habitable zone only refers to whether or not a planet can sustain water. END EDIT

Not to mention there have been several exoplanets discovered which are revolving around their star which is though to be in that solar system's habitual zone. The reason we cannot discover whether or not there is life on that planet is because scientists can't travel that far yet: they can only find the planet using telescopes and calculate it's distance from it's star, but cannot observe life.

The reason being is because it's a lot like flying. Imagine you are a telescope in a plane. As you depart the runway you can see the people, cars, buildings, but the higher up you go the harder it is to see anything on the ground. Just imagine your eye is a satellite. As you look out the window life might be there, but it also might not (like if your flying over NYC or the Sahara desert or Amazon jungle)

So that question is completely bogus. No one other than yourself and those who believe we are alone in the universe would take that question to contain anything worthwhile, because the chance of us being a lone in a universe so massive is pretty slim.

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee