Repeating them is, insisting over and over their improtance over hard work...i'd call that whining

my genetics are fine, i guess my height sucks for bodybuilding and my chest is asymmetric (like i tore my right pec or something). I have good width, good quads (from a LOT of squatting), my traps grow from jsut deadlifting, but my calves suck (genetic ).

I agree. Shrugs are unecessary in my opinion for traps, deadlifts and shoulder exercises take care of them.

Deicide has a good point that genetics can be a major deciding factor in bodybuilding success... natural trainers ALL train, eat and rest the same way... among successful natural trainees you have already filtered out those who don't train hard; don't eat right; don't rest properly... with all those variables being standardized, yes, genetics are the deciding factor.

If you don't agree with the blanket statement "all down to genetics", then please ask for clarification before resorting to personal attacks.

The Luke

That = a load of horsecrap. Most natural trainers don't even have their long term calorie deficit/surplus in order while dieting. Success as a natural when it comes to BF and gaining solid mass over the long term is mostly dependant on having a solid long term system that is followed every day over many months. Most naturals don't have it. Presuming a "standardized" eating plan for naturals = as delusional as they come.

That = a load of horsecrap. Most natural trainers don't even have their long term calorie deficit in order while dieting. Success as a natural when it comes to BF and gaining solid mass over the long term is mostly dependant on having a solid long term system that is followed every day over many months. Most naturals don't have it. Presuming a "standardized" eating plan for naturals = as delusional as they come.

So when you say all men are not equal are you saying that some are more important then others...and if that is true then who is the judge of who is more important and who is less. With this statement you seem to be taking away the value of every person. Just because I may not be as intelligent as Stephen Hawking, can't write as well as Ayn Rand, and am not as beautiful as Angelina Jolie-I am not equal to these people as a human being, their life is more important than mine?

Please tell me how important I am and how important you are-you seem to have all the answers. Every single person is UNIQUE... I believe that people are equal-we all have different talents and personalities that no one else has. In you little example it seems that if your mother died it wouldn't matter as much because she is not "equal" in intelligence or strength or popularity then someone else. This just isn't true in real life because if your mother died it would affect You more deeply then if Jay Cutler or Stephen Hawking died. One person is not more important then another, they just bring different things into our World-you can't judge everyone on the same scale.

That = a load of horsecrap. Most natural trainers don't even have their long term calorie deficit/surplus in order while dieting. Success as a natural when it comes to BF and gaining solid mass over the long term is mostly dependant on having a solid long term system that is followed every day over many months. Most naturals don't have it. Presuming a "standardized" eating plan for naturals = as delusional as they come.

Debussey,

I made the point that among SUCCESSFUL naturals training and diet are all standardised with genetics making the final differences, because you simply can't be successful as a natural if you do things incorrectly.

You say that isn't true because many naturals don't diet properly or successfully?

I think maybe you misread my post.... because your aggressive retort boils down to me claiming that all successful naturals diet properly (they can't be "all drugs" after all), and you interject that the non-successful ones don't diet properly.

This is what I'm talking about with regards to the argument mongering. You start a post by quoting my point then commenting: "That = a load of horsecrap".... then you go on to show that you don't disagree with me, you simply think you do because you've either only scanned my post and mischaracterized my contention, or lack basic reading comprehension.

At 49 he is still awesome. He guest posed at one of the very first shows I did back in the day. That was like 1995. His physique has been carved over time like a sculpture. The true meaning of muscle maturity.

This thread is shifted from the topic. Lets get it back on track. Here is a pic of The Texas Shredder Dave Goodin. He has been around for many years and is a great natural bodybuilder.

Dag, BH! You beat me to it. I used to train at the same gym in Austin where Dave was back in the mid-late 90's. He encouraged me to stay natural and is a great inspiration. Do you know how he faired in MuscleMania last fall?

...whaddya think? I'd say you have me on upper body (bench, curls etc), reckon I could take you in the lower body (squats, deadlifts). Though I reckon we're both on a par with Reeves at least strength wise.

I'll see if I can compress avi files on my computer to post some lifts.