THE ORIGIN OF SINWHO IS THE FATHER OF LIES?John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

THE ADVERSARY (SATAN) WAS ONCE A HEAVENLY ANGEL - WHO WANTED TO TAKE THE PLACE OF GODIsaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

LUCIFER, now called SATAN WAS ONCE A HOLY ANGELEzekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity (sin) was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

HOW DID LUCIFER (now called SATAN) LOSE HIS PLACE IN HEAVEN?Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Last edited by tribeofjudah on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

I have questions... plenty of them.. and unfortunately for me trying to read the Bible to find out the answers leave me like this -->

So Satan wanted to take over heaven? Was that before or after God made us? I thought he wanted to be the right hand of God and not Jesus? Why put an apple that we aren't supposed to eat in the middle of that "garden"? You mean to tell me God didn't know the snake would tell Eve to go ahead and eat the apple? Why give us free will if He already knows we're gonna "F" it up anyways? Am I going to hell because I question all of this? Are my sins easier to tolerate as opposed to someone who murders somebody? Is me lying about something equal to someone who hurts children? Are their different levels of sin?

Look, I'm Catholic and went through all the stuff I was supposed to but maaaaaaaaaaaaaan as I look deeper and deeper I feel a need to question it.. ALL OF IT... sooooo technically that means I'm damned to hell right?

langleyparkjoe wrote:I have questions... plenty of them.. and unfortunately for me trying to read the Bible to find out the answers leave me like this -->

So Satan wanted to take over heaven? Was that before or after God made us? I thought he wanted to be the right hand of God and not Jesus? Why put an apple that we aren't supposed to eat in the middle of that "garden"? You mean to tell me God didn't know the snake would tell Eve to go ahead and eat the apple? Why give us free will if He already knows we're gonna "F" it up anyways? Am I going to hell because I question all of this? Are my sins easier to tolerate as opposed to someone who murders somebody? Is me lying about something equal to someone who hurts children? Are their different levels of sin?

Look, I'm Catholic and went through all the stuff I was supposed to but maaaaaaaaaaaaaan as I look deeper and deeper I feel a need to question it.. ALL OF IT... sooooo technically that means I'm damned to hell right?

Priest says.. "Body of Christ"?I say.. "Amen"

Now what?

Those are all valid questions a thinking person who challenges their religious indoctrinated as a child would ask. I've asked the same questions and have pretty much come to the conclusion that the Bible cannot be trusted as a valid source of information for any reason whatsoever.

On a side note, I don't believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong as I don't believe human beings need some kind of man made religious doctrine "inspired by God" to tell me what is and isn't acceptable.

THE ORIGIN OF SINWHO IS THE FATHER OF LIES?John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

THE ADVERSARY (SATAN) WAS ONCE A HEAVENLY ANGEL - WHO WANTED TO TAKE THE PLACE OF GODIsaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

LUCIFER, now called SATAN WAS ONCE A HOLY ANGELEzekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity (sin) was found in thee.16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

HOW DID LUCIFER (now called SATAN) LOSE HIS PLACE IN HEAVEN?Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Believers have puzzled over the origins of sin, the implications of "original sin" for thousands of years.

- Christians disagreed early on about how "original sin" could be passed down to succeeding generations. St Augustine argued that original sin must have been sex, so that each generation recreates original sin. Eastern Orthodox (Greek) Christians have thought differently, and their concept is sometimes translated as "first sin". See St John of Damascus, "On the Orthodox Faith", and compare to Augustine's "Enchiridion".

- Christians have also asked what sort of a God creates humans knowing that they will commit sin and will be condemned to eternal fire. That would make God a sadist, rather than the source of love (Espistle of John: God is love...more or less).

- When Jesus speaks of "hell", the word seems to have been "gehenna"...which was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It burned night and day, consuming trash, human waste, carcasses...anything. Would dogs surrounded gehenna, ripping flesh from the carcasses. His audience would have had thought immediately of the super-dump. Maybe the word was a metaphor -- a real gut-grabber -- or maybe it was meant literally. We can't know.

- Call that a description of sin derived from an idea about the nature of humans. I'd say that we can observe that human beings appear to be broken in some way that simpler animals are not. We have notions of right and wrong, of evil, of ethics, and humans often chose to do evil. Call that an empiricist view of sin...people behave as if...etc

langleyparkjoe wrote: Am I going to hell because I question all of this? Are my sins easier to tolerate as opposed to someone who murders somebody? Is me lying about something equal to someone who hurts children? Are their different levels of sin?

No you are not. If you didn't question it then how would you understaind anything.

Nope a sin is a sin. They are all the same in God's eyes and he is the only one who can tell you if you're going to hell or not. No one and I mean no one knows that but him.

welch wrote:Believers have puzzled over the origins of sin, the implications of "original sin" for thousands of years.

- Christians disagreed early on about how "original sin" could be passed down to succeeding generations. St Augustine argued that original sin must have been sex, so that each generation recreates original sin. Eastern Orthodox (Greek) Christians have thought differently, and their concept is sometimes translated as "first sin". See St John of Damascus, "On the Orthodox Faith", and compare to Augustine's "Enchiridion".

- Christians have also asked what sort of a God creates humans knowing that they will commit sin and will be condemned to eternal fire. That would make God a sadist, rather than the source of love (Espistle of John: God is love...more or less).

- When Jesus speaks of "hell", the word seems to have been "gehenna"...which was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It burned night and day, consuming trash, human waste, carcasses...anything. Would dogs surrounded gehenna, ripping flesh from the carcasses. His audience would have had thought immediately of the super-dump. Maybe the word was a metaphor -- a real gut-grabber -- or maybe it was meant literally. We can't know.

- Call that a description of sin derived from an idea about the nature of humans. I'd say that we can observe that human beings appear to be broken in some way that simpler animals are not. We have notions of right and wrong, of evil, of ethics, and humans often chose to do evil. Call that an empiricist view of sin...people behave as if...etc

Welch, I like you angle here and I know about Gehenna being a garbage dump that burned night and day. It was used descriptively for "hell".... Gehenna does not exist today and it does NOT burn now. Likewise - the hell spoken of in the future will burn - BUT it too will burn out (not burn eternally) which is a false teaching and stems from the "immortality of the soul".

The Soul is NOT immortal, until GOD gives us immortality.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

*********************

Your question about why would God make humans IF he knew that they would fall --- is another age old question.

It boils down to Freedom of Choice: Adam and Eve were given FIRM instructions to PROVE that they LOVED God and were Loyal to HIM. God did not want and does not want humans to NOT HAVE A CHOICE to Love and Obey him.

Sadly, the first couple failed the test. Sadly, the woman was DUPED by the FATHER of lies....Satan the Adversary.

I have read Genesis and it does not say anything about Satan or a being known as Lucifer being in the Garden of Eden. There was a serpent but except for the fact that it talked there is nothing in a plain reading of Genesis to indicate that this serpent was anything but a snake that was clever and could speak.

In Heaven God came up with a plan to test his angels. The angels be all of us. Jesus was his favorite because he was selfless and had so much love.
Satan was jealous of him and started a war in heaven. So God banished Satan to earth with Satan and his armies.

God had a plan all along. God wanted to test his souls to see if they were worthy enough to reside in Heavens paradise. Thats the reason why we are here.

So as planned the earth, adam and Eve were created. The Garden of Eden remained a paradise. God instructed Adam and Eve that they could partake from all the trees except one tree. The apple tree. As planned Satan wanting man to be as miserable as him tempted Eve first and she ate the apple. Then Eve convinced Adam to eat it too.

Even though God had set it up he banished them from the Garden of Eden. It was Gods plan all along. God is far more smarter or wiser then any of us can fathom.

Back to the subject of sin. God sent Jesus down later to be born. God loved the world so much that he sacrificed his most pure and loved son Jesus.
When Jesus was crucified he was taking the sum of all mankinds sins for all time and eternity. That kind of pain I cant even imagine.
This gave mankind the chance to redeem themselves. Thats why Jesus is called the redeemer.

That does not mean you automatically go to heaven because Jesus died for us. It means you have a chance to repent of your sins and then you can go to Heaven only if you are worthy. Otherwise what purpose would there be to a test if you automatically pass?

My beliefs largely come from Mormonism. I come from a LDS Mormon family.

I partied alot when I was in my teens. I lived with my friends up until I was twenty one. My friends ended up going to the Army, Jail, College etc.. They all moved on. When I was twenty one I found myself lost and unhappy. A priest came to me one day and I went back to church. So I went diligently for four years to church. Now that I was an adult I sincerely searched God out. So he proved himself to me. I received many many blessing by dilligently working hard and just doing good in general. I tried helping anybody and everybody. Every time I seen a car break down on the road I would stop to help. Every time a homeless person asked me for a dollar I would give as much as I could. I even stopped a person at a bus stop and offered him a ride. Not that I am some saint I just wanted to do good and feel good.

All though I dont go to church much anymore. There is no way I can deny God exists and the purpose of Sin. I just cant even If I wanted to deny that God exists I cant because I know.

welch wrote:Believers have puzzled over the origins of sin, the implications of "original sin" for thousands of years.

- Christians disagreed early on about how "original sin" could be passed down to succeeding generations. St Augustine argued that original sin must have been sex, so that each generation recreates original sin. Eastern Orthodox (Greek) Christians have thought differently, and their concept is sometimes translated as "first sin". See St John of Damascus, "On the Orthodox Faith", and compare to Augustine's "Enchiridion".

- Christians have also asked what sort of a God creates humans knowing that they will commit sin and will be condemned to eternal fire. That would make God a sadist, rather than the source of love (Espistle of John: God is love...more or less).

- When Jesus speaks of "hell", the word seems to have been "gehenna"...which was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It burned night and day, consuming trash, human waste, carcasses...anything. Would dogs surrounded gehenna, ripping flesh from the carcasses. His audience would have had thought immediately of the super-dump. Maybe the word was a metaphor -- a real gut-grabber -- or maybe it was meant literally. We can't know.

- Call that a description of sin derived from an idea about the nature of humans. I'd say that we can observe that human beings appear to be broken in some way that simpler animals are not. We have notions of right and wrong, of evil, of ethics, and humans often chose to do evil. Call that an empiricist view of sin...people behave as if...etc

Welch, I like you angle here and I know about Gehenna being a garbage dump that burned night and day. It was used descriptively for "hell".... Gehenna does not exist today and it does NOT burn now. Likewise - the hell spoken of in the future will burn - BUT it too will burn out (not burn eternally) which is a false teaching and stems from the "immortality of the soul".

The Soul is NOT immortal, until GOD gives us immortality.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

*********************

Your question about why would God make humans IF he knew that they would fall --- is another age old question.

It boils down to Freedom of Choice: Adam and Eve were given FIRM instructions to PROVE that they LOVED God and were Loyal to HIM. God did not want and does not want humans to NOT HAVE A CHOICE to Love and Obey him.

Sadly, the first couple failed the test. Sadly, the woman was DUPED by the FATHER of lies....Satan the Adversary.

This is the Great Controversy between Good and Evil.

Um, if God is omniscient like many people claim, he would know they would fail and subsequent generations would fail. This would prove Welch's second bullet point that God is a sadist. Also, if God is omnipotent like many people, he could have easily destroyed Satan instead of slaughtering millions of people, because they chose to follow Satan's wicked ways saving the suffering of many humans that the "Father" claims to love. Doesn't make sense.

welch wrote:Believers have puzzled over the origins of sin, the implications of "original sin" for thousands of years.

- Christians disagreed early on about how "original sin" could be passed down to succeeding generations. St Augustine argued that original sin must have been sex, so that each generation recreates original sin. Eastern Orthodox (Greek) Christians have thought differently, and their concept is sometimes translated as "first sin". See St John of Damascus, "On the Orthodox Faith", and compare to Augustine's "Enchiridion".

- Christians have also asked what sort of a God creates humans knowing that they will commit sin and will be condemned to eternal fire. That would make God a sadist, rather than the source of love (Espistle of John: God is love...more or less).

- When Jesus speaks of "hell", the word seems to have been "gehenna"...which was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It burned night and day, consuming trash, human waste, carcasses...anything. Would dogs surrounded gehenna, ripping flesh from the carcasses. His audience would have had thought immediately of the super-dump. Maybe the word was a metaphor -- a real gut-grabber -- or maybe it was meant literally. We can't know.

- Call that a description of sin derived from an idea about the nature of humans. I'd say that we can observe that human beings appear to be broken in some way that simpler animals are not. We have notions of right and wrong, of evil, of ethics, and humans often chose to do evil. Call that an empiricist view of sin...people behave as if...etc

Welch, I like you angle here and I know about Gehenna being a garbage dump that burned night and day. It was used descriptively for "hell".... Gehenna does not exist today and it does NOT burn now. Likewise - the hell spoken of in the future will burn - BUT it too will burn out (not burn eternally) which is a false teaching and stems from the "immortality of the soul".

The Soul is NOT immortal, until GOD gives us immortality.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

*********************

Your question about why would God make humans IF he knew that they would fall --- is another age old question.

It boils down to Freedom of Choice: Adam and Eve were given FIRM instructions to PROVE that they LOVED God and were Loyal to HIM. God did not want and does not want humans to NOT HAVE A CHOICE to Love and Obey him.

Sadly, the first couple failed the test. Sadly, the woman was DUPED by the FATHER of lies....Satan the Adversary.

This is the Great Controversy between Good and Evil.

Um, if God is omniscient like many people claim, he would know they would fail and subsequent generations would fail. This would prove Welch's second bullet point that God is a sadist. Also, if God is omnipotent like many people, he could have easily destroyed Satan instead of slaughtering millions of people, because they chose to follow Satan's wicked ways saving the suffering of many humans that the "Father" claims to love. Doesn't make sense.

Does everything have to make sense? I think if you can find peace in your life then no it doesn't have to make sense and who cares if it does with anyone else. With or with out god find that place that makes you happy. I have loved a lot of people in my life that I have had to turn away from and let go. I still love them just had to let them go. And I hope they will prove me wrong some day in my reasons I found to do so. I think God has hope for us all and wants us to prove him wrong too.

welch wrote:Believers have puzzled over the origins of sin, the implications of "original sin" for thousands of years.

- Christians disagreed early on about how "original sin" could be passed down to succeeding generations. St Augustine argued that original sin must have been sex, so that each generation recreates original sin. Eastern Orthodox (Greek) Christians have thought differently, and their concept is sometimes translated as "first sin". See St John of Damascus, "On the Orthodox Faith", and compare to Augustine's "Enchiridion".

- Christians have also asked what sort of a God creates humans knowing that they will commit sin and will be condemned to eternal fire. That would make God a sadist, rather than the source of love (Espistle of John: God is love...more or less).

- When Jesus speaks of "hell", the word seems to have been "gehenna"...which was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It burned night and day, consuming trash, human waste, carcasses...anything. Would dogs surrounded gehenna, ripping flesh from the carcasses. His audience would have had thought immediately of the super-dump. Maybe the word was a metaphor -- a real gut-grabber -- or maybe it was meant literally. We can't know.

- Call that a description of sin derived from an idea about the nature of humans. I'd say that we can observe that human beings appear to be broken in some way that simpler animals are not. We have notions of right and wrong, of evil, of ethics, and humans often chose to do evil. Call that an empiricist view of sin...people behave as if...etc

Welch, I like you angle here and I know about Gehenna being a garbage dump that burned night and day. It was used descriptively for "hell".... Gehenna does not exist today and it does NOT burn now. Likewise - the hell spoken of in the future will burn - BUT it too will burn out (not burn eternally) which is a false teaching and stems from the "immortality of the soul".

The Soul is NOT immortal, until GOD gives us immortality.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

*********************

Your question about why would God make humans IF he knew that they would fall --- is another age old question.

It boils down to Freedom of Choice: Adam and Eve were given FIRM instructions to PROVE that they LOVED God and were Loyal to HIM. God did not want and does not want humans to NOT HAVE A CHOICE to Love and Obey him.

Sadly, the first couple failed the test. Sadly, the woman was DUPED by the FATHER of lies....Satan the Adversary.

This is the Great Controversy between Good and Evil.

Um, if God is omniscient like many people claim, he would know they would fail and subsequent generations would fail. This would prove Welch's second bullet point that God is a sadist. Also, if God is omnipotent like many people, he could have easily destroyed Satan instead of slaughtering millions of people, because they chose to follow Satan's wicked ways saving the suffering of many humans that the "Father" claims to love. Doesn't make sense.

If your looking for a debate I am not the one for such. But I will answer your question.

According to Mormon which is christian religion dont know why people try to separate. We are on Earth to be tested.

Sin is part of choice of good or evil. God knew they would fail and Satan would tempt. That was part of his plan.

Where Mormons may differ with many Christians not all. Is you have to earn your way to heaven. Rather then automatically get in through Jesus. Jesus dying gives you a chance to repent and get into heaven.

You have to think of it this way. If Heaven is such a paradise? If to be in Gods presence is such a high honor?

Would he just let any soul reside alongside him? Of course not.

Do you think a child molestor or cold blooded murderer will get into heaven?

Well most likely not but Jesus does give them the chance if they were to truly repent. That means changing not just in words but in action and in the soul.