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When people threaten each other with a .45, we have gone over the line!

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Tim,

At least it was a "porty pive." Hard to imagine a serious threat on the forum from someone using a nine. Sorry - did I just start a flame war? Personally my choice would be Remington 700's at 1500 paces - but that's just me.

How 'bout ICBM's at 1500 miles? We could call it "The Kali Wars."

I hope you don't mind me making light of the situation but somebody has to. And you know my serious feelings on the matter from my PM's.

Ron, there's a confounding factor. A lot of people will look. They'll see this stuff. A few who have never heard of Pekiti Tirsia may choose it because they recognize the name. Others will say "Oh, yeah, Pekiti Tirsia. Sounds like bunch of out of control losers." They will go somewhere else for their martial arts instruction.

My guess is that more people will go through door "B".

It's a shame, but that's how it is sometimes.

Lord knows that's happened with Silat in North America, particularly wherever it touches on a few prominent families.

I don't think anyone will miss the message. You've stressed that in more ways than one. I just feel that it should be heard and understood that several people and/or groups including those who had constant run-ins with the PTK clan would not be happy to shun a person/group/issue in this way. There are certain things in life that are nonnegotiable, this is not one of them.

I dont understand why the ptk people think it is important to be here at these forums when they have their own web site and world wide site at that. Guro Uli I beleive runs that one. There is also all the pitbull sites. I can understand wanting to spread their art, that should happen with good will towards everyone.

During the absence of the Pekiti-Tirsia forum, a number of people on any number of forums have made comments making their distaste public for the political and personal disruptions concerning Pekiti-Tirsia.

Whether that particular forum continues is anyone’s guess but it is certain to factor in Mr. Hartman’s tolerance on his site and the conduct of its participants. In any event, the system of Pekiti-Tirsia will thrive or limp depending on the quality of its instructors. This quality will be based on how well they know the system, how well they apply the system, how they make that system digestible for others to learn and how well they promote the system (and to whom).

My concern here is that there is currently this environment in which someone may hear or read ‘Pekiti-Tirsia’ and readily dismiss the practitioner thereof. It bears keeping in mind that the system and the individual personalities involved are two separate entities, no matter what anyone may proclaim. The system is bigger than any one individual…if it is not, then the system perishes with that individual. At this point, it does not matter what version of the ‘truth’ you buy into regarding any one of the following conflicts whether it be:Pekiti-Tirsia versus Dekiti-TirsiaPekiti-Tirsia versus Sayoc Kali/Atienza KaliKali versus Eskrima/ArnisMr. Gaje versus Mr. Tortal…or any other point of discontent and disagreement. What matters on the ‘micro’ level is that Pekiti-Tirsia is a body dynamic superimposed on a strategy that is very recognizable that happens to work very well if you are an individual that is diligent enough to make it work.

What matters on the ‘macro’ level how this new generation of eskrimadors/arnisadors/kalistas/maharlikas inherit the martial legacies of those that proceeded them without the biases and anger of those very same predecessors. An example of this is my own father’s anger toward the Japanese for many, many years (my father was a guerilla during WWII who witnessed the invading Japanese soldiers murder inhabitants of his village). My father has every right to be hurt and angry by those occurrences. And I love and respect my family and my ancestors for what they have toiled and died for. But I cannot hold this generation of Japanese folk accountable for the acts of the Japanese back in the 1940’s. It was those individuals who did the actual murdering that I hold accountable. So as angry as my father is at times with things Japanese, I choose not to be angry with the Japanese person standing nest to me in line at the grocery store. In the recent occurrences, I would hope that those on the ’outside’ of the Pekiti-Tirsia realm understand how it impacting not just the system, but the whole of Filipino Martial Arts.

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Thus my hope for my martial heritage is that it not only survives, but that others will not be ‘turned off’ by it and miss out on what the Filipino culture (martial or not) has to offer.

Mr. JackLatorre, hello. I see and understand what you say and I agree with you. I love the P.I. and its culture, and wouldn't want the same to look bad or leave a bad taste in someone's mouth. I also agree with Guro Inosanto, not everyone's way is the right way nor is every way the wrong way, just a different road. I would like to see peace and harmony, but it is up to the individual masters to practice such peace and harmony in order to pass it on to the students. I hope all will try to be more patient with each other and promote all the fma no matter who is who and who does what (jungle warrior/leo/just a guy).
Train hard and be at peace.

As a business man myself within the martial art world, I find controvercy to be interesting and so does a lot of other people. The folks out there will get the word and flock to FMAT to see what it is all about. That will gain more you members. And it will get the forum talked about in the FMA world. The history of PTK and what really happened in the Tortel/Gaje family is important information and should be in a public forum. There is only so much to speak about on any martial art. This just adds to it. I understand that you do not want threats and keyboard warriors but debates really stir up excitement and should be kept here till there is a conclusion.

In every arguement, there is someone who is correct. This thread was closed down before there was any conclusion. I have not been on here prior to yesterday for a week or so...what is it that was said that got everyone heated up enough to close it down?

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I know a large percentage of the PTK folks from around the world. Most that I have met are pretty cool guys. All are willing to fight anyone as I see it. Its the nature of PTK and confidence in the technique of the style. Plus they laugh at my jokes...or maybe they are just humoring me!

I did not read the thread in question so I did not see the 45 cal threat. You should have let it go to see if they would come back with a 50 cal, a bazuka (SP), an atom bomb and end it with nukes! Isn't that the same reason why they deleted Bugs Bunny cartoons from the TV?

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

During the absence of the Pekiti-Tirsia forum, a number of people on any number of forums have made comments making their distaste public for the political and personal disruptions concerning Pekiti-Tirsia.

Whether that particular forum continues is anyone’s guess but it is certain to factor in Mr. Hartman’s tolerance on his site and the conduct of its participants. In any event, the system of Pekiti-Tirsia will thrive or limp depending on the quality of its instructors. This quality will be based on how well they know the system, how well they apply the system, how they make that system digestible for others to learn and how well they promote the system (and to whom).

My concern here is that there is currently this environment in which someone may hear or read ‘Pekiti-Tirsia’ and readily dismiss the practitioner thereof. It bears keeping in mind that the system and the individual personalities involved are two separate entities, no matter what anyone may proclaim. The system is bigger than any one individual…if it is not, then the system perishes with that individual. At this point, it does not matter what version of the ‘truth’ you buy into regarding any one of the following conflicts whether it be:Pekiti-Tirsia versus Dekiti-TirsiaPekiti-Tirsia versus Sayoc Kali/Atienza KaliKali versus Eskrima/ArnisMr. Gaje versus Mr. Tortal…or any other point of discontent and disagreement. What matters on the ‘micro’ level is that Pekiti-Tirsia is a body dynamic superimposed on a strategy that is very recognizable that happens to work very well if you are an individual that is diligent enough to make it work.

What matters on the ‘macro’ level how this new generation of eskrimadors/arnisadors/kalistas/maharlikas inherit the martial legacies of those that proceeded them without the biases and anger of those very same predecessors. An example of this is my own father’s anger toward the Japanese for many, many years (my father was a guerilla during WWII who witnessed the invading Japanese soldiers murder inhabitants of his village). My father has every right to be hurt and angry by those occurrences. And I love and respect my family and my ancestors for what they have toiled and died for. But I cannot hold this generation of Japanese folk accountable for the acts of the Japanese back in the 1940’s. It was those individuals who did the actual murdering that I hold accountable. So as angry as my father is at times with things Japanese, I choose not to be angry with the Japanese person standing nest to me in line at the grocery store. In the recent occurrences, I would hope that those on the ’outside’ of the Pekiti-Tirsia realm understand how it impacting not just the system, but the whole of Filipino Martial Arts.

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Thus my hope for my martial heritage is that it not only survives, but that others will not be ‘turned off’ by it and miss out on what the Filipino culture (martial or not) has to offer.

Jack, have you considered running for president? I hear there is an opening in November of this year. You've ellucidated the quintessential qualities of a true warrior-sage.

Now on to baser subject: Ron, you are precisely correct with the travesty inflicted upon Bugs Bunny... especially Yosemite Sam. I for one say, "Bring back the politically incorrect cartoons of yester-years."

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Thus my hope for my martial heritage is that it not only survives, but that others will not be ‘turned off’ by it and miss out on what the Filipino culture (martial or not) has to offer.

btt, I'm afraid you just don't get it. This isn't cowardice. It's Tim doing his duty by the forum. Moderators are supposed to moderate, and administrators are supposed to administer. That means that they have to require some reasonable minimum standard of behavior on the part of participants.

It doesn't have anything to do with who is better at stabbing or clubbing other people. It's about acting in a rational adult fashion.

Opinions are one thing. There have been some awfully weird ones on FMATalk that passed without comment. Threats involving large caliber handguns and knife fights out behind the barracks are another thing entirely.

Unless you're just throwing insults around and hoping one of them sticks calling Tim's response "cowardice" doesn't make any sense. The cowardly thing to do would have been to sit back, do nothing and allow the flame war to go on for fear of offending anyone.

When I logged on, I was shocked to find that the entire Pekiti section was taken off. I saw that one of the reasons was the 'Dekiti vs. Pekiti thing'...if that was the case, it would be logical to ban both parties <both Dekti and Pekiti> ....or....... if there are individual people making inappropriate comments/threats get ban those individuals for life, not everyone else. I was wondering of all the individuals that post on the Pekiti site how many of them are making threats? (what percentage of people are the offenders?)...1% ? 5%? 10%? ...even if its 40% how hard is it to ban those 40% and leave the site for the 60% to enjoy and use as a valuable training forum (because there is a lot of valuable training tips/info on the forum)