Yael Even OrBy Yael Even Or July 23 at 8:37 AMYael Even Or is an Israeli journalist and activist who, during her service, evaluated candidates for the recruitment department of the Israeli army. She currently lives in New York City.

Whenever the Israeli army drafts the reserves — which are made up of ex-soldiers — there are dissenters, resisters, and AWOLers among the troops called to war. Now that Israel has sent troops to Gaza again and reserves are being summoned to service, dozens are refusing to take part.

We are more than 50 Israelis who were once soldiers and now declare our refusal to be part of the reserves. We oppose the Israeli Army and the conscription law. Partly, that’s because we revile the current military operation. But most of the signers below are women and would not have fought in combat. For us, the army is flawed for reasons far broader than “Operation Protective Edge,” or even the occupation. We rue the militarization of Israel and the army’s discriminatory policies. One example is the way women are often relegated to low-ranking secretarial positions. Another is the screening system that discriminates against Mizrachi (Jews whose families originate in Arab countries) by keeping them from being fairly represented inside the army’s most prestigious units. In Israeli society, one’s unit and position determines much of one’s professional path in the civilian afterlife.

To us, the current military operation and the way militarization affects Israeli society are inseparable. In Israel, war is not merely politics by other means — it replaces politics. Israel is no longer able to think about a solution to a political conflict except in terms of physical might; no wonder it is prone to never-ending cycles of mortal violence. And when the cannons fire, no criticism may be heard.

This petition, long in the making, has a special urgency because of the brutal military operation now taking place in our name. And although combat soldiers are generally the ones prosecuting today’s war, their work would not be possible without the many administrative roles in which most of us served. So if there is a reason to oppose combat operations in Gaza, there is also a reason to oppose the Israeli military apparatus as a whole. That is the message of this petition:

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We were soldiers in a wide variety of units and positions in the Israeli military—a fact we now regret, because, in our service, we found that troops who operate in the occupied territories aren’t the only ones enforcing the mechanisms of control over Palestinian lives. In truth, the entire military is implicated. For that reason, we now refuse to participate in our reserve duties, and we support all those who resist being called to service.

The Israeli Army, a fundamental part of Israelis’ lives, is also the power that rules over the Palestinians living in the territories occupied in 1967. As long as it exists in its current structure, its language and mindset control us: We divide the world into good and evil according to the military’s categories; the military serves as the leading authority on who is valued more and who less in society — who is more responsible for the occupation, who is allowed to vocalize their resistance to it and who isn’t, and how they are allowed to do it. The military plays a central role in every action plan and proposal discussed in the national conversation, which explains the absence of any real argument about non-military solutions to the conflicts Israel has been locked in with its neighbors.

The Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are deprived of civil rights and human rights. They live under a different legal system from their Jewish neighbors. This is not exclusively the fault of soldiers who operate in these territories. Those troops are, therefore, not the only ones obligated to refuse. Many of us served in logistical and bureaucratic support roles; there, we found that the entire military helps implement the oppression of the Palestinians.

Many soldiers who serve in non-combat roles decline to resist because they believe their actions, often routine and banal, are remote from the violent results elsewhere. And actions that aren’t banal — for example, decisions about the life or death of Palestinians made in offices many kilometers away from the West Bank — are classified, and so it’s difficult to have a public debate about them. Unfortunately, we did not always refuse to perform the tasks we were charged with, and in that way we, too, contributed to the violent actions of the military.

During our time in the army, we witnessed (or participated in) the military’s discriminatory behavior: the structural discrimination against women, which begins with the initial screening and assignment of roles; the sexual harassment that was a daily reality for some of us; the immigration absorption centers that depend on uniformed military assistance. Some of us also saw firsthand how the bureaucracy deliberately funnels technical students into technical positions, without giving them the opportunity to serve in other roles. We were placed into training courses among people who looked and sounded like us, rather than the mixing and socializing that the army claims to do.

The military tries to present itself as an institution that enables social mobility — a stepping-stone into Israeli society. In reality, it perpetuates segregation. We believe it is not accidental that those who come from middle- and high- income families land in elite intelligence units, and from there often go to work for high-paying technology companies. We think it is not accidental that when soldiers from a firearm maintenance or quartermaster unit desert or leave the military, often driven by the need to financially support their families, they are called “draft-dodgers.” The military enshrines an image of the “good Israeli,” who in reality derives his power by subjugating others. The central place of the military in Israeli society, and this ideal image it creates, work together to erase the cultures and struggles of the Mizrachi, Ethiopians, Palestinians, Russians, Druze, the Ultra-Orthodox, Bedouins, and women.

We all participated, on one level or another, in this ideology and took part in the game of “the good Israeli” that serves the military loyally. Mostly our service did advance our positions in universities and the labor market. We made connections and benefited from the warm embrace of the Israeli consensus. But for the above reasons, these benefits were not worth the costs.

By law, some of us are still registered as part of the reserved forces (others have managed to win exemptions or have been granted them upon their release), and the military keeps our names and personal information, as well as the legal option to order us to “service.” But we will not participate — in any way.

There are many reasons people refuse to serve in the Israeli Army. Even we have differences in background and motivation about why we’ve written this letter. Nevertheless, against attacks on those who resist conscription, we support the resisters: the high school students who wrote a refusal declaration letter, the Ultra orthodox protesting the new conscription law, the Druze refusers, and all those whose conscience, personal situation, or economic well-being do not allow them to serve. Under the guise of a conversation about equality, these people are forced to pay the price. No more.

Yes, it's humiliation, collective punishment, and termination. But what is the solution to end all that?

Collectively the Muslim countries went in 1948, the result was Israel winning and occupying more land.

If in the past attempts Israel was the instigator then it does not mean this time Hamas didn't have a role.

If Hamas is the solution then we have seen it failing and hurting the Palestinians more. PLO, PLLF, Hamas, seen it all. Decades of failure and sufferings.

The longer this continues the more land Israel will occupy. Neither are angels, both are the same - one has a stronger force. If Hamas was stronger than the we would have seen the reverse and that would be just as bad. It is high time that this matter is settled and a deal is negotiated.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Hamas's tactics are not a solution. But What israel does, it can not be justified any person who has an ounce of humanity in him/her. Hamas is an excuse to continue the occupation and state terrorism against the Palestinian.

If hamas is to blamed then Israel should also be blamed for failing to make peace with Palestinians and Abbas.

Walk away if you want toit's ok, if you need toyou can run, but you can never hideFrom the shadow that's creeping up beside youThere's a magic running through your soulBut you can't have it all

Again, they are both the same, none are more angelic than the other ... I am saying that again and again. Turn the tide and make Hamas stronger, they won't behave any differently. Possibly they will be more inhuman than even the ISIL beheaders.

Israel can come out tomorrow and say that they are cruel, it won't solve the problem still.

A deal has to be reached and this time around it's Fatah's call, not Hamas'; they had no business going on the offensive this time and hurting the negotiations. Regardless of how high handed the Israelis are, no matter how bad the deal was, it was not Hamas' call.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Never forget the words and action plan of the British Empire per their Prime Minister in 1907:

"The Bannerman Report written in 1907 by the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, and, as it was strategically important it was suppressed and was never released to the public until many years later:

“There are people (the Arabs, Editor’s Note) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another … if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.”

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Never forget the words and action plan of the British Empire per their Prime Minister in 1907:

"The Bannerman Report written in 1907 by the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, and, as it was strategically important it was suppressed and was never released to the public until many years later:

“There are people (the Arabs, Editor’s Note) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another … if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.”

There is a hint of solid truth but the rest of it sounds more like a conspiracy.

Any war ever fought in the history of mankind has been for one and one thing only.....Resources...whether it be land, natural precious metal or any other aspect out of thousands.....anything which will make a state, tribe, civilization or whatever....more powerful than before. Domination.

For the West they absolutely hate any alternative economic system to theirs....Why do you reckon the Americans destroyed Iraq and ultimately removed Saddam? Not because it was a Islamic country and Saddam was a pious muslim.....but because he was pushing for depegging of US dollars to the oil in OPEC. He wanted the oil producing nations to trade their oil in their own currency......this is what gave the US literal nightmares.

Anyways this will go off topic.

As far as the Levant region is concerned....Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.....the people themselves need to do a lot of soul searching. How can they do anything when they are so sectarian?

Hamas is elected by the people of Gaza and the world should respect the government of people.

Nahi na, Hamas was the previous Govt. This Govt. is the Fatah party. They made Hamas inclusive just this past April and gave them some portfolio, but the ruling party now is Fatah. That is why I am saying Hamas had no business sabotaging the Peace negotiation this time.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

I don't get it, why? It's not like the plane was going to fly into Gaza.

They would land in Egypt, unload the supplies, and then fly back to Tunisia - what would Egypt's reason be to not receive the supplies?

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Hamas has not sabotage the peace as a matter of fact, they have joined in. BIBI and his band of fundos didnt like it and they have asking Abbas to denounce them ever since.

The current crisis are started by BIBI as he turned the police matter into a war.

Hamas is refusing the cease fire because Israel has not full filled the terms of the previous Ceasefire in 2012. The biggest term was to increase the fishing area for the fishermen of Gaza from 3 mile zone to 6 mile. If fisher men try to go to fish beyond miles, they have been fired on by Israelis.

You guys need to stop watching the media and start reading more on the internet and youtubes videos by free lancers in the war. who are not schills of zionists

Walk away if you want toit's ok, if you need toyou can run, but you can never hideFrom the shadow that's creeping up beside youThere's a magic running through your soulBut you can't have it all

No we don't. Uzbeks sees TTP as angels, Pakistan sees them as devils. Arabs see ISIL as saviours, Iran sees them as insurgents. Iran sees Hamas as guardians, Arabs sees them as Shaitan. Individual perceptions vary. Emphasis is not on perception, rather on actions and who is the stronger one and "in control".

TTP knows what Pakistan Army will do if provoked again. We all know what Israel will do if provoked again. And Hamas knows it the most, that if we provoke Israel they will kill Palestinians and the peace deal will fail again - Rajiv fire at will...

1987 Hamas was formed. Palestinian-Israeli peace negotiation started in 1991. In 1993 Oslo Accord was signed. In 1995 final agreement was signed. Palestine was liberated, they had their own flag, flights were permitted. Gaza had an airport. Hamas decided they don't like the agreement. You can say Israel took the land, I say Hamas gave the Israelis the land.

Whether such groups become a tool for various countries to further their political agenda is an entirely different matter. Fact remains that Hamas wouldn't have to exist if their country wasn't being stolen from them. An undeniable fact.

No matter what you or anyone else says, this conflict is about land. Fact is that Israel is stealing Palestinian land to expand their settlements. Palestinians aren't stealing Zionist land. Zionists are stealing Palestinian land.

Realistically, I think the Israelis may have asked them to do so they did it.

w/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Black September is fighting for change and then they turned violent in Jordan. Pakistan had to help King Hussein.

PLO is victim fighting for rights, until they started blowing up airliners.

Bad Russians poor Afghans, until the Taliban emerged.

Bad Assad poor Syrians, until the ISIL emerged.

Perhaps not original intention, but eventually that's what became of them. Pakistan Army is doing exactly that in Baluchistan and Waziristan what Israel is doing in Gaza. One has to look from both the angles and reach a middle ground, work towards a solution.

Israel is not going to back down, and after another 10 years there will be no more Palestine land available. This continues maybe just one gets independence, Gaza and not West Bank. Maybe that is what Hamas wants? Think about it, they are not themselves angels either.

Edited by Felicius, 26 July 2014 - 11:07 AM.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Pakistan is doing in Baluchistan Waziristan what Israel is doing in Gaza? I don't follow. One is part of our country with anti-state elements. Pakistan Army isn't an occupying force - We did not conquer these areas and subjugate them and are not oppressing them. I don't understand.

Also what will happen to the 6 million Palestinians in ten years?

w/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Yaar jews are not bad at all....in fact there have been countless of them standing besides the Palestinians.

You need to understand Zionists and extremists, to much extent are fundamentally like the khwarij.....same code of conduct and modus operandi besides the fact that khwarij killed their own whilst the Zionists pick on Palestinians. They have the exact same dirty mentality.....a superiority complex and an appetite for killing.

Bas yeh hai kay they are extremely united...well informed and well educated; thus they have consolidated immense power.

Read on Haredi Judaism......in fact if you had a Haredi rabbi and an extremist sheikh standing besides each other in their respective get ups and expressing their respective views.....you will literally find 95% of similarities.

Python, to kill 10 people the army ends up killing 20 or more - that is what I meant when I said what we are doing in Baluchistan.

See when a military power goes in hard, they don't differentiate. The point to bring it up was to see the view from another angle, not a comparison. Innocents always are the most to be be affected, that is the sad part of any war, internal or external.

Another point was to show that we don't feel for innocent deaths if we favour the stronger force. 25,000 Palestinians were killed (1971) by Pakistan in Jordan, some were Black September terrorists, but not all of them for sure, had to be a significant amount of innocent Palestinians that we killed right? Israel had protested then that Pakistan has mercilessly massacred 25000 Palestinians, did we feel remorse then?

Perception changes when you see things differently or from the other side. In this debate of ours, the most to suffer are the Israeli civilians and the Palestinian civilians, not Hamas or IDF. A solution has to be reached for those two parties, it's very imperative. We are not suffering nor are the Arabs. Keep in mind who are the ones most affected.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Hamas is refusing the cease fire because Israel has not full filled the terms of the previous Ceasefire in 2012. The biggest term was to increase the fishing area for the fishermen of Gaza from 3 mile zone to 6 mile. If fisher men try to go to fish beyond miles, they have been fired on by Israelis.

Merey bhai you are talking in the present. I am talking about the past, just a couple of weeks in the past, who started this mayhem and sabotaged the peace deal?

There were negotiations in place for the last 2 years, they were negotiating on what land will the Israelis give in return for the land they have built their settlements on. Hamas had no business firing rockets in to Israel at all, they disrupted those negotiations between Palestine and Israel.

Fatah Govt. is in power. They took Hamas in as unity Govt. in April 2014.

Not much different to when PPP was in power and took in PMLN as unity Govt. But the decision makers for any international affairs were PPP. PMLN had some say in what happens inside Pakistan only. Same principle applies to them, Fatah is the decision maker, Hamas had no business starting an armed aggression.

Now they (Hamas) are in the driving seat. How? Or let's say that is what they wanted and knew this was the way in?

Nevertheless, what has been done has been done, can't turn back the clocks. Cease fire now should not be an option, that makes Israel stronger.

Hamas should now sustain it for month and months, kill 10 Israelis every week, but do it ... keep at it. Only public pressure will bring the Israeli Govt. to their senses, nothing else can. They are too strong and will never bow down otherwise.

Sooner or later the World will loose patience with Israel, they will start to lose support.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Plat, they both (Israel and Hamas) are liars. Here Hamas did start, because the others two were in negotiations.

The reason why Hamas was formed was Arafat threw them out of Black September. They became Hamas and Arafat's side became PLO, and then Fatah.

When Pakistan advocated in favour of Hamas' demands, the Arab "brothers" told us to mind our own business, we are acting more Palestinian than the Palestinians.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

How did they start anything? They were bombed first, after accusations of kidnapping which they denied.

If you want to look at the notion of original sin, you'd do well to remember the conflict started with the creation of Israel.

What Arabs think or say is irrelevant. They like everyone else has an agenda. As individuals and as a collective (nationally, pan-islamicly, as humanity) we must address the matter from the moral perspective. Right vs wrong. I don't take my lead from any Arab, neither should you, nor should our nation.

Follow PDF on twitter @Official_PDF

-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=

Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nationor country would tolerate its jugular vein remainsunder the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah

-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=

These eye's do not wander in lust, for myqueen of hearts has graced them with love.

. Pakistan Army is doing exactly that in Baluchistan and Waziristan what Israel is doing in Gaza...

....i seriously contest this comparison between Pakistan Army and IDF....we are waging war against anti state elements,who have been armed by our enemies, these elements want to take over our country, these elements have killed thousands of civilians and armed forces individuals in the last decade, plus the PAF is not bombing the IDPs (civilians) as the israelis are doing.... then Pakistan Army doesnt want to occupy these areas, nor it is included in our doctrine.....we want to wrap it up quickly so as to face our conventional enemies.... by ur comparison of both armies, all our efforts of the last decade just went down the drain.....

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

BuzzFeed reporter Sheera Frenkel was among the first to suggest that it was unlikely that Hamas was behind the deaths of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach. Citing Palestinian sources and experts in the field, Frenkel reported that kidnapping three Israeli teens would be a foolish move for Hamas. International experts told her it was likely the work of a local group, acting without concern for the repercussions:

[Gershon Baskin] pointed out that Hamas has earlier this month signed an agreement to form a unity government with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, bridging, for the first time in seven years, the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank and Gaza.

“They will lose their reconciliation agreement with Abbas if they do take responsibility for [the kidnappings],” Baskin added.

The recent explosion of violence in Gaza may have been initially sparked by false or inaccurate claims, according to Israeli police.

The ongoing conflict began last month when three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped from a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank. Their bodies were later discovered in a field outside the city of Hebron. Before police were able to determine who was responsible, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu placed blame for the tragic deaths squarely on Hamas, Gaza’s elected political leadership—an accusation that may prove to be false.

On Friday, Chief Inspector Micky Rosenfeld, foreign press spokesman for the Israel Police, reportedly told BBC journalist Jon Donnisonhe that the men responsible for murders were not acting on orders of Hamas leadership. Instead, he said, they are part of a “lone cell.” Further, Inspector Rosenfeld told Donnison that if Hamas’ leadership had ordered the kidnapping, “they'd have known about it in advance.”

israel has lost this conflict badly, they used disproportionately excessive force to take out a few hamas rocket but have failed so far , even hours before the cease fire, hamas was still lobbing rockets ,

the only way they could have stopped this was through a ground offensive but seem reluctant to do so given their lack of desire to take casualties

i believe hamas is quiet well dug and prepared, if they have a potential of 5000 rockets, they sure must have in possession a large stockpile of small arms too

^^A few weeks ago Israel started it by bombing Gaza after falsely accusing Hamas of kidnapping some Israeli teenagers.

Actually, Israelis started this even before that where they assassinated some teenagers a few weeks earlier, I think.

w/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Hamas forwarded a cease fire term, which Israel accepted. Result was Hamas turned down their own proposal. It shows their intention.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

....i seriously contest this comparison between Pakistan Army and IDF....we are waging war against anti state elements,who have been armed by our enemies, these elements want to take over our country, these elements have killed thousands of civilians and armed forces individuals in the last decade, plus the PAF is not bombing the IDPs (civilians) as the israelis are doing.... then Pakistan Army doesnt want to occupy these areas, nor it is included in our doctrine.....we want to wrap it up quickly so as to face our conventional enemies.... by ur comparison of both armies, all our efforts of the last decade just went down the drain.....

I apologize, but I did explain it above. Comparison was not what you think, but rather the killing without remorse (exactly what Israel is doing), and along with it innocent deaths too. Pakistan Army is doing that as well. But I still say PA is doing a good job.

Israelis too are supporting their military, whether 800 were innocent or only 500 were innocent.

Edited by Felicius, 27 July 2014 - 03:32 PM.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

How did they start anything? They were bombed first, after accusations of kidnapping which they denied.

If you want to look at the notion of original sin, you'd do well to remember the conflict started with the creation of Israel.

What Arabs think or say is irrelevant. They like everyone else has an agenda. As individuals and as a collective (nationally, pan-islamicly, as humanity) we must address the matter from the moral perspective. Right vs wrong. I don't take my lead from any Arab, neither should you, nor should our nation.

Till today there is status quo, the war has not ended. Bar Turkey, the 3 most powerful Muslim countries are still saying we are in a state of war (KSA), Israel will be wiped off the face of this Earth (Iran), and we don't recognize Israel (Pakistan).

As per the Muslims that 1948 war hasn't ended, why will Israel change their stand?

Israel did not invade Palestine originally, the British partitioned it, not any different to Pakistan and Bangladesh surrounding India. If we accept and are thankful, than Israel's independence is no different.

The only solution is a peace deal, or there won't be any other land available. Hamas is really ruining it for the Palestinians.

Edited by Felicius, 27 July 2014 - 03:35 PM.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Either you are bored and want to just push people button or totally misinformed.

I can't blindly take Hamas' side when here they started it. They as in Hamas had no authority or business to intervene when Abbas' Govt are in negotiations.

Even if I were to believe that Israel started it, the orders had to come from Abbas. It was not Hamas' call.

Not pushing any buttons, I refuse to accept Hamas is not a terrorist organization.

Edited by Felicius, 27 July 2014 - 03:36 PM.

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

If Israel has the right to defend itself against any threats to it's people via bombings and missiles even if that defense is offensive - why don't the Palestinians have the same right?

If the Israelis were genuinely willing for peace they would have actually moved ahead with something after the Oslo accord.

Everyone talks about Hamas and it's refusal to accept the Israeli state - what about the Israel's refusal to accept the Palestinian state/people? I hope you don't consider the prison like situation of Gaza and West bank as acceptable. Even so, within what borders are people to accept the Israeli state?

w/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Till today there is status quo, the war has not ended. Bar Turkey, the 3 most powerful Muslim countries are still saying we are in a state of war (KSA), Israel will be wiped off the face of this Earth (Iran), and we don't recognize Israel (Pakistan).

As per the Muslims that 1948 war hasn't ended, why will Israel change their stand?

Israel did not invade Palestine originally, the British partitioned it, not any different to Pakistan and Bangladesh surrounding India. If we accept and are thankful, than Israel's independence is no different.

The only solution is a peace deal, or there won't be any other land available. Hamas is really ruining it for the Palestinians.

India never existed as an entity, Palestine did. The partition of "India" was the creation of states from within an articial entity. Palestine existed before hand, the creation of Pakistan and India was agreed, Israel was not.

Either way, Eid mubarak, you enternal troll.

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Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nationor country would tolerate its jugular vein remainsunder the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah

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These eye's do not wander in lust, for myqueen of hearts has graced them with love.