1965 and 1966 Roche was stronger than Newcombe, 1967 Newcombe was stronger, 1968 and 1969 Roche, 1970 Newcombe, 1971 till 1973 Roche did almost not play, 1974 Newcombe stronger, 1975 Roche had the edge if we consider that he was probably the best grasscourter that year.

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I agree with you, looks loike it was one your Newcombe and the successive year Roche...I think both retired around 1978.Roche lost the AO semis to Vilas that year, if I recall properly and beat a young Mc Enroe at Queen´s.Newcombe won the WCT Sant Louis event and made it to the Wimbledon fourth round but that´s it.

Correct on the technicality.
But that avoids the issue.
Budge skipped this event for no good reason, perhaps because he wanted to avoid a loss to Vines in a big event, just prior to Vines' retirement.

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I'm sorry but I can't see how this affects our original topic, which was the correct H2H tally of the first Budge-Vines tour. You obviously think poorly of Budge's decision to withdraw from the US Pro, a topic which I'm not interested in (not now anyway). How does his decision help us understand the correct tally from a tour that took place months before?

If you have a specific argument linking the two events, please state it directly.

I'm sorry but I can't see how this affects our original topic, which was the correct H2H tally of the first Budge-Vines tour. You obviously think poorly of Budge's decision to withdraw from the US Pro, a topic which I'm not interested in (not now anyway). How does his decision help us understand the correct tally from a tour that took place months before?

If you have a specific argument linking the two events, please state it directly.

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Again, you are mixing two different issues.
I guess you do not want to talk about the Budge withdrawal. It makes Budge appear unsporting.
As we discussed earlier, the injury to Vines (just try to serve with pulled side muscles) coincided (some coincidence!) with Budge's winning streak of five or six matches. This was the difference in the series.
Is this clear enough?

Again, you are mixing two different issues.
I guess you do not want to talk about the Budge withdrawal. It makes Budge appear unsporting.
As we discussed earlier, the injury to Vines (just try to serve with pulled side muscles) coincided (some coincidence!) with Budge's winning streak of five or six matches. This was the difference in the series.
Is this clear enough?

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Dan, I sincerely have little to no interest in whether Budge appeared unsporting or not. If he was unsporting, so what? It doesn't matter to me, and how does it impact the H2H count of a tour that took place months before? That's the question I asked and you have not given me a connection between the US Pro and the spring tour.

Let me go with this for the sake of argument. How does Budge's unsporting withdrawal from the US Pro impact our understanding of the spring tour?

And you're giving the wrong numbers above: Vines lost at most 4 matches to this injury -- possibly fewer, because we don't exactly when he was injured. So it's misleading to say that that injury coincided with the full 6-match losing streak: it implies that Vines was injured for as many as 6 matches, and that Budge won as many as 6 matches due to an injury by Vines.

Dan, I sincerely have little to no interest in whether Budge appeared unsporting or not. If he was unsporting, so what? It doesn't matter to me, and how does it impact the H2H count of a tour that took place months before? That's the question I asked and you have not given me a connection between the US Pro and the spring tour.

Let me go with this for the sake of argument. How does Budge's unsporting withdrawal from the US Pro impact our understanding of the spring tour?

And you're giving the wrong numbers above: Vines lost at most 4 matches to this injury -- possibly fewer, because we don't exactly when he was injured. So it's misleading to say that that injury coincided with the full 6-match losing streak: it implies that Vines was injured for as many as 6 matches, and that Budge won as many as 6 matches due to an injury by Vines.

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Budge won the spring tour. And the European tour.
Did he want his record diminished and his commerciability reduced by losing the final of the only major tournament of the year to Vines, who would then retire, leaving Budge unable to restore himself against Vines?
The answer is obvious, but today no player would skip a major from simple weariness. He would skip a warmup tournament, sleep hard, and come ready to play in the major.
Olmedo claimed that his losses to Fraser in the 1959 Davis Cup and Forest Hills final were caused by playing too much to satisfy the US team officials. But he showed up anyway, and took his lumps.
Hoad was overtennised in the European tour of 1959. Gonzales rested and skipped this portion of the season. Hoad took his lumps in Europe, and finished the season strongly in Australia.
Budge looks silly by comparison.
We cannot interview Vines today, but he talked to Kramer, who suggests that the injury caused the difference. Pulled muscles take some time to heal, and the recovery is not straightline.

Budge won the spring tour. And the European tour.
Did he want his record diminished and his commerciability reduced by losing the final of the only major tournament of the year to Vines, who would then retire, leaving Budge unable to restore himself against Vines?
The answer is obvious, but today no player would skip a major from simple weariness. He would skip a warmup tournament, sleep hard, and come ready to play in the major.
Olmedo claimed that his losses to Fraser in the 1959 Davis Cup and Forest Hills final were caused by playing too much to satisfy the US team officials. But he showed up anyway, and took his lumps.
Hoad was overtennised in the European tour of 1959. Gonzales rested and skipped this portion of the season. Hoad took his lumps in Europe, and finished the season strongly in Australia.
Budge looks silly by comparison.
We cannot interview Vines today, but he talked to Kramer, who suggests that the injury caused the difference. Pulled muscles take some time to heal, and the recovery is not straightline.

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So you've brought up Budge's withdrawal, not as way to help understand the spring tour, but simply because you want to compared unfavorably to other greats. Fine, go right ahead: Budge's reasons for withdrawing have no bearing on what the actual H2H was against Vines.

What you're doing is the reverse: you think that because Budge won the spring tour, he didn't want to tarnish his record with a loss. Yes, entirely possible. Does not help us understand what the H2H was in the spring tour.

Pulled muscles do take time to heal. But Vines broke his losing streak by beating Budge 3 times in a row. He wasn't struggling slowly to get back in the thing; he was right back in it. Only 6 days after Vines broke his losing streak, I have a report saying that his serve won him a match in Miami Beach; a couple of days after that, his “cannonball service” was one of “the chief characteristics” of a match in Palm Beach.

So you've brought up Budge's withdrawal, not as way to help understand the spring tour, but simply because you want to compared unfavorably to other greats. Fine, go right ahead: Budge's reasons for withdrawing have no bearing on what the actual H2H was against Vines.

What you're doing is the reverse: you think that because Budge won the spring tour, he didn't want to tarnish his record with a loss. Yes, entirely possible. Does not help us understand what the H2H was in the spring tour.

Pulled muscles do take time to heal. But Vines broke his losing streak by beating Budge 3 times in a row. He wasn't struggling slowly to get back in the thing; he was right back in it. Only 6 days after Vines broke his losing streak, I have a report saying that his serve won him a match in Miami Beach; a couple of days after that, his “cannonball service” was one of “the chief characteristics” of a match in Palm Beach.

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Let's consider another POSSIBILITY (not fact).
Athletes with muscle pain can show up to play, look great, and then collapse in pain that same night.
How is this possible? With a helpful physician or medical person and a needle and some pain killer.
I am not saying that this actually happened, merely that it has sometimes happened. I know for sure that it happened in professional ice hockey.
Perhaps Vines just took a few aspirin. I don't know. But it is no surprise when a recovering athlete suddenly looks good for a few hours. With a pulled muscle, it could happen.

Let's consider another POSSIBILITY (not fact).
Athletes with muscle pain can show up to play, look great, and then collapse in pain that same night.
How is this possible? With a helpful physician or medical person and a needle and some pain killer.
I am not saying that this actually happened, merely that it has sometimes happened. I know for sure that it happened in professional ice hockey.
Perhaps Vines just took a few aspirin. I don't know. But it is no surprise when a recovering athlete suddenly looks good for a few hours. With a pulled muscle, it could happen.

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Vines did more than show up looking good for a few hours. He showed up consistently serving aces -- as many as 30 in one match -- for the remainder of the tour.

Vines did more than show up looking good for a few hours. He showed up consistently serving aces -- as many as 30 in one match -- for the remainder of the tour.

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In the 1964 Stanley Cup finals, Red Kelly played all 14 of the postseason games for the Leafs with knee injections before each game.
One player describes how upsetting it was to watch him after each game, with a needle sticking out of his knee joint, in great pain. The fans were completely unaware of the truth.
Athletes can make great sacrifices to win.

In the 1964 Stanley Cup finals, Red Kelly played all 14 of the postseason games for the Leafs with knee injections before each game.
One player describes how upsetting it was to watch him after each game, with a needle sticking out of his knee joint, in great pain. The fans were completely unaware of the truth.
Athletes can make great sacrifices to win.

Good choice, one which I have often thought of.
Both players had about ten years of play, both had serious injuries, and both reached the highest level of brilliance in their respective sport.
Another example might be Gale Sayers, who probably had the best moves in the NFL. Again, an injury-shortened career.
Hoad's injury, unlike the others, was self-inflicted, caused by a poor training exercise.

while both and Ashe ( and maybe Nastase) were the true rivals for Laver hegemony,at the end of his reign, it is very hard to decide which one was better, both at their peaks...in fact, Newcombe took a set off Rocket at W and Roche did so at FH....I´d really like to hear what Laver said about them and then, maybe, decide...

BTW, a clue...Laver talks much more about Roche that he talks about Newcombe...but, then agai, Laver felt closer to farmer Roche than Urban Newk, so...

I prefer Roche personally but the fact Laver put Newcombe on 10 place of his all time greats (past champions) can be an indicator of what he thinks.

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my op, and this is just pure feeling, absolutely personal, is that Newcombe was a bit more predictable than Roche, but he was also tougher in his mind...and the fact that Laver´s top foe, Rosewall, was close to Newcombe, may have given Rocket more thought on Newcombe than on Roche...

I prefer Roche personally but the fact Laver put Newcombe on 10 place of his all time greats (past champions) can be an indicator of what he thinks.

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Maybe Laver referred to Newcombe's greater achievements than Roche had and not to who was as stronger opponent against him. But in Hoad's case Rocket yet referred to Lew's peak instead of his career achievements.

Maybe Laver referred to Newcombe's greater achievements than Roche had and not to who was as stronger opponent against him. But in Hoad's case Rocket yet referred to Lew's peak instead of his career achievement

Which just means how big Hoad´s peak was...

as for Newk vs Roche, it can go either side.Newcombe was more consistent and Roche more brilliant, but Roche being a lefty can give Laver more trouble...

my op, and this is just pure feeling, absolutely personal, is that Newcombe was a bit more predictable than Roche, but he was also tougher in his mind...and the fact that Laver´s top foe, Rosewall, was close to Newcombe, may have given Rocket more thought on Newcombe than on Roche...

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Roche was much closer to Rosewall than Newcombe was. Rosewall trails 7:9 against Roche but leads 14:10 against Newcombe.

Maybe Laver referred to Newcombe's greater achievements than Roche had and not to who was as stronger opponent against him. But in Hoad's case Rocket yet referred to Lew's peak instead of his career achievement

Which just means how big Hoad´s peak was...

as for Newk vs Roche, it can go either side.Newcombe was more consistent and Roche more brilliant, but Roche being a lefty can give Laver more trouble...

Anyhow, very few posters have the knowledge about Newco and Roche, who was better at their peak...it really is interesting since both, plus Nastase and Ashe were dominating the transition era between Laver/Rosewall and Borg/Connors.

Smith,Okker,richey and Kodes were very good players but not as talented as those 4...and, IMo, after the Laver/Hoad/Gonzo/Rosewall foursome, and before Lendl/Borg/Mac/connors, the quator of Newcombe/Ashe/Nasty/Roche is fantastic...don´t you think so?

Maybe Laver referred to Newcombe's greater achievements than Roche had and not to who was as stronger opponent against him. But in Hoad's case Rocket yet referred to Lew's peak instead of his career achievements.

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Hoad's career achievements are frequently misunderstood and underrated. Laver was better aware of them than most tennis experts.

Good choice, one which I have often thought of.
Both players had about ten years of play, both had serious injuries, and both reached the highest level of brilliance in their respective sport.
Another example might be Gale Sayers, who probably had the best moves in the NFL. Again, an injury-shortened career.
Hoad's injury, unlike the others, was self-inflicted, caused by a poor training exercise.

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Incidentally Bobby Orr, in the 1970-71 NHL season had a plus-minus rating of 124, the highest in NHL history.

Orr is generally regarded as the most naturally gifted hockey player ever, and Hoad is generally regarded as the most naturally gifted tennis player ever. Both had their record-breaking years shortened by injury.
Orr's peak lasted from about 1968 to 1972, while Hoad's was about 1956 to 1960. Almost the same duration of peak form, and terminated by injury in the final year of the periods.

Orr is generally regarded as the most naturally gifted hockey player ever, and Hoad is generally regarded as the most naturally gifted tennis player ever. Both had their record-breaking years shortened by injury.
Orr's peak lasted from about 1968 to 1972, while Hoad's was about 1956 to 1960. Almost the same duration of peak form, and terminated by injury in the final year of the periods.

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If memory serves, I believe Orr had a higher combined plus minus rating in his short career than Gretzky had in his much longer career. That is astounding considering the caliber of player Gretzky was. I could be wrong.