DNA hunters has opened Viking grave in Normandie

Normandie, France.Professor Emeritus at the University of Oslo, Per Holck, (T. H.) and Andaine Seguin Orlando by DNA lab Centre for Geogenetics at the University of Copenhagen was Monday in Normandy and opened the graves of two of the Viking leader Rollo of Normandy their descendants..Photo. Vegard Strømsodd/Explico / NTB scanpix

Norwegian researchers have finally got to open the tomb of the Viking leader Rollo’s descendants. They will find out whether Rollo was the same Rollo as Rollo from Møre. In that case the British royal family originaed from Norway.

A Norwegian-led delegation was in Normandy on Monday and opened the sarcophagus of two of Rollo’s descendants. The aim is to put an end to a centuries-long debate: Was Rollo Danish or Norwegian?
– We have been working to get this investigated in about seven years, so to finally get collected material to test DNA was huge historian and project initiator Sturla Ellingvåg of the foundation Explico said.
Rollo was the founder of Normandy, Count of Rouen and great great great grandfather of William the Conqueror, who is the ancestor of the English royal house. While Norwegian-Icelandic historical documents and historians have argued since the Snorre Sagas that Rollo and Rollo are one and the same person, the Danish historians believed that he came from Denmark. Rollo, the son of Rognvald was exiled from Norway and was said to have settled in France.Plucked out teeth
In January the French authorities and the French church granted the Norwegian application to open the tomb of Rollo’s grandson and great-grandson, Duke Richard the fearless and son Duke Richard the good. The tomb is a sarcophagus in the floor of a monastery in Fécamp. When they opened the grave Monday, researchers found, among other things, a lower jaw with eight teeth in the tomb of Richard the good:
– The key is to find teeth, for the DNA of the teeth may, even all these years, be sufficent for a DNA analysis. Two forensic experts from Norway and Denmark snatched five of his teeth and those teeth are now being sent to the Institutes of Forensic Medicine in both of the countries for analysis, Chairman of Samlerhuset and The Norwegian Mint, Ole Bjørn Fausa says.
A result of the analysis will probably be available in the autumn and will be presented in cooperation with the French authorities. So it remains to be seen whether the results indicates Denmark or Norway.
The small sarcophagi at first glance looks like they only accommodate toddlers, but Fausa explains:
– When they were buried in a floor, it was a matter of space. The most important thing was to preserve the skeleton. We do not know how this was done here, but it was common to either cut the bodies into pieces or boil them so the meat loosened from the bones. This meant that the the sarcophagus didn’t have to be longer than a femur, which is the longest bone in the body, Fausa says.Rare event
Fausa describes the atmosphere at the tomb as an amazing experience:
– As far as we know this is only the second time since the war that a king’s tomb has been opened in France. Just being a part of it, and find the skeletons in there, it was exciting, solemn and unreal at the same time.
In the work process, he also found that he is a 35th generation descendant of Rollo.
– Of course it enhances this experience, to know that this was my ancestors, Fausa says.
If Rollo and Rollo proves to be the same person, it will be of historical significance:
– If the British royal family originates from the northwest coast it will, among other things, change the notion that the Norwegian royal family is young, with origins from the British and Danish, says Fausa.

*shrugs* two of the latest are decorated soldiers, two of the women are/were olympic level athletes, the family is unbelievably rich and rules over millions, *and* the level of pomp given to their funerals and state events is beyond what even Rollo could dream of (although without all the human sacrifices). Pretty sure he’d be fine with that.

What is wrong with our Royal family, you sound a pretty nasty person. Who the hell was Rollo some saint? I would guarantee he loved to rob, murder and rape to lord it over people, they all did back then. He would have rolled over many times by now, generations of descendants have lived and died and do you seriously believe they were all good men and women? What a joke.

My DNA shows my mother’s relationship to Aquinnah Mary Covell and Covell I at Martha’s Vineyard and chiefs of the tribe. They are called “the white Indians” with red hair; my mother had auburn red hair. Their is another legend of Leif Ericson land at Martha’s Vineyard for several years and assimilating into the tribe. It’s unusual that Leif Ericson was born in Mor, Norway and my mother’s maiden name was Moore. In Norway, the Carr name (mine) is Kjar and in the Icelandic Sagas you find Kjar. Rollo got land in France (fighting with William of Orange; the Conqueror for helping the French King.

Well that could solve a few more questions than just the Royal family e.g. some Sinclairs are adamant they descend from Rollo, others think they may have just ‘adopted’ an ancestor not an uncommon practice. If all the families whose claims of accompanying William the Conqueror across the Channel were correct he would have needed a fleet 10 times the size! Years ago one contacted me re helping finance doing what is being done but he could not get access, so glad someone has.
Puzzled how one knows he is 35th generation from Rollo when the DNA results are not even in yet.

There was indeed land and people, but they didn’t think of them selves as Norwegian or Danish because these two nationalities had not been invented yet.
Now if these people where on a Viking raid in the British isles the locals would have called them Danes and if those same people where on a Viking raid in France the locals would have called them Norman. It doesn’t matter if they came from Seeland or Trondelag or Gothland.
Eventually the language we to day know as “old norse” or “norrønt” adapted the name it was called in the British isles and is therefore in the Icelandic medieval literature known as “Danish tongue”. That would not have happened if “Danish” had been a distinct nationality.

But the same could be said even in other cases when there was a country with the same name, since countries of today hardly have any resemblance with countries of the same name a thousand years ago, and it is only nationalism that makes us speak of it as the same country. But the historical connection exist no matter if the country was formed or not and so does ethnicity that we can trace to certain areas, but of course doesn’t conform to country borders.
That said, is it actually known with certainty that Denmark and Norway didn’t exist at that time at least as names for what is somewhat the areas in question and possibly as unified countries. The first mention we have of Denmark is ca. 960-985, not that long after Rollo lived?

I have traced my family back on one line to Frame, a Viking in 749 in Normandy France. Has anyone heard of Frame, is he related to Rollo or other Vikings? The family name is du Plusses, and were prominent in the area. I would appreciate any and all help.

What utter nonsense. The Queen’s ancestry on the distaff side goes back to the Stuarts, who were of Celtic/Breton origin (L21 subclade) descended from Walter fitzAlan, the son of Alan fitzFlaad, the seneschal to Breton archbishop of Dol de Bretagne. When his male line in direct descent died out.

Ah, well, both the Queen & Prince Phillip are also descended from King Harold Godwinson, last king of the English as they carry the blood of Valdemar King of Denmark who was himself descended from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gytha_of_Wessex

…and I am descended from Rollo’s ancestors – and I’m predicting DNA to be R1b-L1066 based on my own, personal research leading me there, from what began as a typical, simple genealogy hobby. @Redrum_of_Crows

Hi my surname is CLIFFORD derived from marriage PONS/ DE Toeni after 1066 so we are from Normandy My DNA is I-M223 from Scandinavia all points east I am trying to find Pons DNA Logically I- M223 but not always certain your thought would be most appreciated Kind Regards John Clifford

I’d give up on the Viking Norse thing ! It looks like William the Conq was of Briton descent maybe his ancestors took off after the Roman invasion ! A lot of the so called Norman families have DYS 390 at 24 R1b

I think the reason so many present day descendants are a branch of R1b is due to the male lines dying out, the Percy family are an example of that where there were no male heirs from around 1200, if not earlier. In the 12th century, there was a Percy heiress, Agnes de Percy, who carried the family forward, she married Joscelin de Louvain, who then took the arms and surname of Percy. So, any make heirs would carry his male line DNA, and not that of the original Percy males. I believe there were further breaks in the male line if you research the whole family history, the Royal family are a good example of this too. It happened to many of the old Baronial lineages unfortunately.

William the Conq was of British descent they exhumed his Norman relatives bones and found British DNA which didn’t fit their Viking narrative ! William the second his son is buried in Winchester a much better source if they are serious . The vast majority of the French Norman invaders were Britons eg. The Stewart’s ! The likes of Ralph Fiennes are not of Norman descent in the male line ! My Ancestor Phillip D’Aubigny who is buried at the Chur of the Holy Sepulchre was a Briton ! Alfred the Great was a Briton . Viking DNA is a load of bunk as there were thousands of Britons in the Roman army serving all over Europe and they were a seafaring people long before the Romans as evidenced by Port Setanti !

I had no idea they had exhumed close family of William the Conq, they have a death mask for him in the Tower of London, and I have to say, he doesn’t look very Scandinavian, but I’m not sure if this is a genuine death mask, or a made up one. In theory he should have been a Viking descendant from the great Rollo himself, but with so many broken lines, who’s to know. His son would be a great place to start, and there the lines ends, as the next to take the succession was from a female of William’s family. A lot of them were indeed Bretons it seems. the d’Aubigny family are an interesting lot, I have a feeling that’s recorded somewhere about them being Breton, with the Bigod family being Viking stock. I would love to see an extensive DNA project in the areas of Normandy associated with these families, the Scandinavian DNA is there I’m sure, just not in the places they have focused on in the past.

There are also Briton Genes in Portugal ! As I said before we “were ” a seafaring race long before the Scandinavian Germans ! All the Crusader graves at the Sepulchre were desecrated by the Muslim Caliph except for Phils whose ghost ( Ka) appeared and scared him so much he stopped the desecration ! This obsession with Viking Blood doesn’t appeal to me they were slavers who traded Children Russian in Constantinople ! Most Scandinavian blood in Britain is female!

I have to disagree here I’m afraid. There are various branches of particular haplogroups that originate in specific countries and areas, Yfull is a good group to look at for examples of this. Not all Scandinavians descend from Slavs. I know I’ve mentioned it before, but when my Dads DNA test came back, he fell into a group which is small, rare, and specific to Scandinavia only. Our family history is Norman, and the cluster we match most closely is the Western Norway group. We do have one of our group who has Normandy ancestry too, he hails from Mayenne , the only French man so far with matches in Western Norway that I know of. It now looks as if our haplogroup is a very old Scandinavian one. I don’t think people are wrong to assume a Viking ancestor if their DNA test revels close matches there and they predominate, even if that ancestor may have entered Scandinavia with the Slavs, you have to look at the bigger picture. I know what you mean about origins though

You missed my point ! My point is there were Britons in Norway long before Rollo invaded Norway ! Look up the Surname Hankin in Wikipedia then look up Haakon ! My ancestor Hankin the Good is buried in Peover Chester !

Sorry Arthur, I thought you meant Breton for some reason. Yes, there would have been people of British origin in Scandinavia, but I always thought they would have arrived there through trading and slavery, but who knows. Great name that, Hankin the Good by the way, and an interesting surname.

Kim I don’t think British male slaves would be allowed to breed with Scandinavian women , my point is the gene probably arrived at the start of the Dark Ages ! The Angle nobility of Northumbria graves unearthed by Prof. Pryor of Oxford tested for DNA showed indigenous Briton for the males and Scandinavian DNA for the woman buried with them these people were Pagans ! The oldest boat unearthed in Britain in the Humber was thought to be a Viking boat but Radio Carbon dating proved it was a two thousand years before the Viking era ! The so called Viking DNA of Scandia that is not R1b is more Slavic ( slave race in Latin )than Germanic ! Read the Anglo Saxon Chronicle on Alfred the Great and tease arch it and you will find the founder of the Wessex dynasty was a Briton Cerdic ! There were no slaves in Britain till the Romans arrived ( Tacitus Germania and Britain ) . (ps the seax was a mass produced sword that was adopted by pagan Britons after the Romans left ) The Germanisation of British History started with Archbishop Stubbs to popularise the House of Hanover who if you can believe Prince Charles are more Transylvanian ! Google him in Romania talking about Vlad and Elizabeth Countess of Hungary his ancestors ! Arthur

Very interesting indeed Arthur, I had no idea. I guess we have always been a seafaring nation being an Island, so it makes sense. Who’s to know really, and it’s a shame the analysis from Fecamp turned out the way it did, otherwise we might have finally had some answers. There is a lot more to learn historically, and sometimes DNA tests help fill in those gaps. I also know what you mean about the Slavic/Germanic DNA in Scandinavia. My Dads norse group seems to be the exception to the rule, and it’s still an enigma, some feel it’s very old and was in Scandinavia long before the arrival of others, and the other theory is that it arrived along the same route as the Goths. Again, we may never know, but ancient burials often help. Haha to Prince Charles, and no comment 🙂

This might help explain the origins and spread of R1b, http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml as you say Eyvind, it’s very widely spread, and it’s origins in Scandinavia could have come from anywhere, Celtic slaves, Goths, or it may have always been there. I always say DNA test as far as you can go on your male line, it pulls in all your matches and narrows down the place of origin of your most distant ancestor. I have an R1b in my family project(broken line), and we now know, his ancestor was of Breton or Normandy descent. It’s another small group ( just 3 families), and all of them carry Norman ancestry, one a landed family in Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the other spreading from Normandy to Italy in the Crusades, their family history appears to have been documented. We know from records this Dawtrey line ended with two females around 1400, the DNA test results showed a shared ancestry with one of these other R1b families around 550 years ago. This family had land in the area these particular Dawtreys were living in West Yorkshire, so I can only assume a female Dawtrey kept her name after marriage to one of their family. We have only been able to discover this though individual SNP tests at YSEQ, the BIG Y test at FTDNA, and then a transfer of results to the amazing Yfull company who then work out a time to shared ancestor, though sometimes it can be a little or a lot out due to varying mutation rates. Overall, the results so far, are pretty good, and they are refining them all the time.

The Q-haplogroup is believed to have spread to Western Europe with the Mongolian Huns. Could it be that they invaded Scandinavia at some point before the Viking area? The sagas actually says that the Vikings came to Scandinavia from east.

The Huns were strongly attached to their horses, so it is reasonable to believe that they brought them.
The original Viking horse, the still existing Nordlands horse, is in fact a Mongolian horse race.

It seems unlikely that a mix between Mongolians and Germanics should produce people with blond hair and blue eyes, but you never know. It would certainly explain the reputation of the Vikings as a tough and vicious raiding and plundering people, just as the Huns were.

Hi Eyvind. That has long been my theory about the presence of haplogroup Q in Scandinavia, and I don’t think anyone knows for sure, even though Q has been found in Hun burial sites. I don’t think they have been able to analyse the samples to such an extent as to find out which branch of Q they belonged to which is a shame.

I’m not sure if you are haplogroup Q or not, and if you are, which group you might be in L527 or L804? L527 seems to be concentrated around Gotland in Sweden, and for a long time Eupedia classed it as being of Hunnic origin. The group my Dad belongs to is more of an enigma it seems.

It could be the Huns arrived before the Germanic tribes, or maybe they were Scythians. I’m hoping one they we will find out. I agree with you about the Sagas, and the belief the Viking era Scandinavians had that their origins were from Turkey or Turkic. At the moment it seems people are focusing solely on the science, which is fair enough as without matching DNA from ancient burials, there is no hard evidence that the Q in Scandinavia came via the Huns. However, with it being found in Germany and Switzerland, plus new samples now in Denmark, it does make you wonder. You then start to wonder if they may have been an elite an early ruling class in Scandinavia, but they might be pushing it 🙂

My Dad, and most males in my direct line are blue eyed, tall, but often with dark hair, however, I have cousins whose line shows them to be small and dark, so it’s hard to know what our distant ancestor would have looked like. I expect with mixed couplings, then even a first child could be born blonde haired and blue eyes, genetics is a funny thing. Our Paynel cousins seem to have been lethal killing machines, taking part in the harrying of the north with William the Conqueror, and some of my family bred horses, and trained armies in archery. in the early years after the invasion.

That’s interesting. At Yfull it seems all branches of Q-L804 emerge around 200 AD in Scandinavia, but this could be a bit later, sometimes they are quite a way out, even by hundreds of years we’re finding with those who have a known paper trail. Not sure if those figures help at all?

Lived in Norway(?) or mountainous village as a woods man in an earlier life from 1700-1740. Some Paleoarchaeologists and others believe Scandinavia and Norway were inhabited hundreds of thousands of years ago by H. Sapiens who go back in time several millions of years, even before H. Erectus, Neanderthalers, other primitive H. etc. Scandinavian legends and mythology could support this idea.

Agreed with two comments and thought the same thing whilst rreading the article. How does he know he is 35th gen descendant when the DNA hasnt been analysed yet and in viking age wasnt the land Germania? Not separate smaller countries yet?

Thats from the Viking TV series. In reality Normandy became more like a viking colony, with people imigrating from Scandinavia for generations. Rollo did stop attacking Paris, but he and his viking army continued more or less as independent contractors, raiding all over Europe.

I think this is great a very interesting blog I am I- M223 Normandy Offshoot of the PONS / POINTZE French family we are related to Rollo my surname is Clifford it derived from Pons marrying into the Toeni family of Clifford castle in Heredfordshire England owned by Toeni, Pons changed his name to De Clifford about 1066,8 dropping the De some time later info from The House Of Clifford.

Arguments in this blog about whether Normans originated from Norway vs Denmark…or Brit royals as descendants of Rollo-Vikings vs Stuart-Celts are interesting and fun, but maybe a little missing the nuance….perhaps also the overall point. First, British royals (and anyone else for that matter) are complex genetic mixtures; in fact, William I’s descendants married back into Saxon royal family…so add Saxon, Angles, and others to your Norse, Celt genetics. Likewise, I’d bet there was a lot of mixing and sex between “Norwegian” and “Danish” Norse peoples in earlier times (Sigrid Lund makes a good point above, by the way). Second, a focus on male forbears ignores human biology: the Y chromosome contributes few genes relative to the other 23, so women’s genes are just as important…in fact, maybe a bit more given bigger role of mitochondria genome in biology. Third, cultural influence and inheritance may be even more important…and here too, our cultures are not only complex mixtures and fusions, but also subjects of continuous and tortuous evolution. All that said, the bigger point about these studies….what makes them really interesting…is they could directly test the idea that Norse peoples had significant influence on this cultural evolution, not just in England but more broadly in Europe.

Good read BUT on this two many downers I come from Pointz / Pons / Clifford DNA IM223 wishing for some one to tell me I am Norwegian / Danish I-M223 is or I have read very old , I know we are FRENCH / NORWEGIAN or DANISH that,s about it , Love to say I am a Viking Kind Regards John Clifford

Prior to the unification processes of Denmark and Norway, people were moving more freely within Scandinavia. It is, I believe, actually quite possible that Rolf Ragnvaldsons grandfather, Eystein Glumra, moved from Denmark to Norway. Rolf Ragnvaldson would then have all danish genes in the male Y-chromosome.
Rolfs family became earls of the Orkneys, including parts of Scotland and Irland, where they ruled for centuries, and they probably left few genetic traces in Norway. It would therefore be difficult to connect the genetic findings to Norway, I believe, without including the Orkneys.

Hi Eyvind good blog on Rollo I am very interested in your site My surname is Clifford of Pons originally Northern France cant wait till the Richard 1/2 results comes out I am FTDNA I-M223 dreaming of having a link to Rollo but I might be always dreaming, but I can say I Am A Viking for sure Kind Regards John Clifford

I agree with Sigrid Lunds post above. I just finished reading Dick Harrisons Swedish History 600-1350. He point out that i.e. Icelandic saga writers project Nordic nations in times before they existed. His main argument against Icelandic sagas as historic sources is that they are not contemporary, written hundreds of years after the events they describes. Conflicts between family grouping have been described as conflicts between nations. These family groupings involved people from what we now see as Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Sweden did not really exist as a nation before Birjer Jarl united it with force after AD 1250.

Does anyone knows what sort of dna test they will do? Perhaps as deep as the Big-y ?, and is there a website where we can follow the course of this adventure? My Haplogroup is R-Z27257, so maybe Danish or North German origin.
Thanks, Paul

It does not really matter much if Rollo was “Danish” or “Norwegian”, I think. Scandinavians were all mixed at that time anyway. But it is important to be able to identify him as the historical character Walking Rolf Ragnvalsson, as written in the islandic and orkney sagas, and not some unknown prince from Danisia as claimed by the frensh historian Dudo. The border between mythology and history of most of the royal families and nobility of Europe will than be moved a genereation or two, as we know a quite deal about Walking Rolf and his relatives.

But I do not think that a geographical analyzis of the Y-chromosome will give any result, because there is a probability that Walking Rolfs grandfather could actually have moved from «Denmark» to «Norway». Walking Rolf would than of course have all «danish» genes in the Y-chromosome.

There are however very few traces from this family in Norway today. But Walking Rolfs brother, Einar Ragnvaldsson (Thurf Einar) became earl of the Orkney, where his descendants lived for centuries.

As far as I know, most of the clans and nobility of Scotland descend from him. I believe the only way to prove that Rollo was identical to Walking Rolf would be to find any direct descendant from one of these families and compare With the DNA findings.

If anyone know of any direct male descendant from the Orkney Earls, I would be happy to inform the investigation team about it.

It has been suggested That Clifford / St Clair /& 25 other Normandy names have links with W/C as do millions of none researchers claim, but Michael Maglio,s Origin Hunters well worth considering,Also Sinclare DNA, If any one can help me I wish to know PONS / POINTZ DNA as they were the for runner French name creating Clifford abt 1070

Maglios report is just based on DNA from people living today, believing to be descendants of Rollo (or rather William the Conqueror, his great, great grandson). This is then of course very uncertain information.

Also Maglios conclusion that Rollo was danish, does not take into concideration the fact that the vikings did settle quite freely within all of Scandinavia before Norway, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark became separate nations. A geograpichal DNA study of the male Y-chromosome would therefore, of course, also be very uncertain.

However, the Tribemap markings in Maglios report, indicating where we can find descendants of Rollo today, does actually match the geograpich places connected to Walking Rolf Ragnvaldson strikingly well, both in Norway and in northern parts of Scotland.

Maglio also mention a previous imigration from “Denmark” to the western part of “Norway”, leading further to the invasion of the northern parts of Scotland. This must clearly have been Walking Rolf family, who bacame earls there, ruling this area for centuries. Walking Rolfs father was earl of Møre (More) in the west coast area of Norway.

I believe that Maglios report migth be true, but his conclusion calling Rollo a dane is wrong.
If this is the right DNA, it rather indicates that Rollo actually was identical to the notorious norwegian viking chieftain Walking Rolf Ragnvaldsson, and that one of his forfathers, most probably his grandfather Eystein Glumra, had previously moved from “Denmark” to “Norway”, accounting for Walking Rolfs “danish” Y-chromosome.

I am actually more curious about the name Sir Edmund of Ham. I know that the Sandwich Islands are far away, but the name Ham is found serveral places in the Orkney and Shetland region. Could this name stem from the old norse word Hamr, meaning “skin” or “shape”?

FTDNA project I-M223 called Doggerland Land become The North Sea covers I=M223 you have to join good Admins a lot of comments my tree goes back to Rollos time The French name Pons / Pointz married into a French family living at Clifford castle Herefordshire England called De Teoni Walter 1 fitz Pons married Margaret de Toeni her dowery was Clifford castle so Walter fitz Pons became Walter 1 became de Clifford about 1070 by changing his name to Clifford the first Clifford name

My Dealtry family are said to have a Norman origin, the name originally was de Hauterive, and then became de Altaripa in Latin, before landing at the anglised version of Dealtry and Dawtry. Records can be found for our family as far back as 1020 in Normandy, then after the conquest, they appear in charters in Yorkshire always with the family of the Baron Ralph Paynel in the early days. One branch of the Paynels held Hauterive in Normandy, and went by the name of Painel de Hauterive. Anyway, out of curiosity I tested my Dad’s DNA, he is indeed of Viking origin, with a rare Scandinavian haplogroup of Q-M242. His results imply his ancestor hailed from Norway, but he has a match in the Shetlands too. From his matches, we think his ancestor may have traveled from the More Og Romsdal area in Norway, but as yet we haven’t found the big Daddy of our branch, apart from the man from the Shetlands. I always like to think that Rollo traveled out from the same area of Norway, and our ancestor was one of the men who made that journey with him, so I’m really looking forward to seeing these results, though I guess it may not solve that particular mystery:)

Kim, Is there a way I can get in touch with you? My surname is Dealtrey and my dad and I have been slowly slowly researching his family history and surname. We’ve all just had our Ancestry DNA done initially and then if there was anything really interesting Dad was going to do more detailed DNA tests. I came back with 26% Scandinavian not what I expected at all! I’d love to chat to you about anything you know about the Dealtreys. Dad’s are from Yorkshire, West Riding. Raby, Scruton Bedale etc. It’s been a struggle finding any other Dealtreys or similar out there to share info with!

Hi Claire, are you in the UK, and what company did you test with? The Scandinavian percentage often crops up in those with Viking ancestry You can reach me on kim.dawtry@hotmail.co.uk, it would be great to hear from you. It’s possible you link to us, and I may be able to help you with your tree if you’re outside the UK and having trouble finding records.

One last comment, this is the cluster from the FTDNA Q Nordic group which includes the man from Mayenne, you will see how he matches men from Western Norway, Trondelag and More Og Romsdal, a man from Iceland, and then a few from the UK who probably have a Viking or Norman ancestor, we call this the truly Viking group:)

I never suggested that Rollo was haplogroup Q, and believe me, there are two branches of Q which are almost exclusive to Scandinavia, I’ll send you links shortly. I’m a genetic genealogist, an administrator for 3 DNA projects through FTDNA, and work closely with other admins in Scandinavia who have created groups for these two branches of Q. One is Q-L527, and the other is Q-L804. They are found in around 5% of the Scandinavian population, L527 is mainly Swedish, but L804 is more widespread. It has also been found in the Shetlands and Orkneys in similar percentages, and amongst some British families of probable Norman descent We also have one man from Mayenne in Normandy who through extensive testing, the Big Y and Yfull, has found his ancestral cousins in Norway, we can pinpoint the exact area his ancestor traveled out from:- https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/qnordic/about/background

The following are from Eupedia:-

Q1a2b1 (L527): found almost exclusively in Scandinavia and places settled by the Vikings

Q1a2a1a2 (L804): found in Germany, Scandinavia and Britain (possibly Hunnic)

Q-L804 has its roots in the More Og Romsdal area of Norway we believe, it’s the area of one of the suggested birthplaces of Rollo,or Ganger Hrolf. He is said to have been born on Giske near Alesund, and sagas mention Rollo was born as Hrólfr Rognvaldsson in Møre, Western Norway, in the late 9th century as a son to the Norwegian jarl Rognvald Eysteinsson.

I am in no way suggesting that my family descend from him, but I’m hoping these DNA tests might show that he was born in that area, to (a) prove the sagas right, and (b) to think our ancestor whoever he was, might have made that journey with Rollo.

As far as I know there are no evidence supporting Giske in south Møre as Rollos birth place. This idea was actually first suggested by a local newspaper reporter over hundred years ago. The inhabitants had actually never heard of this before. But after a while they started believing it. They had even read it in the newspaper, so it had to be true!

Rolf Ragnvaldsson (presumable Rollo) and his father Ragnvald Mørejarl Eysteinson was actually born in north Trøndelag, more than 400 km north of Giske. Rolfs father Ragnvald Mørejarl Eysteinson was later appointed earl of Møre and Romsdal by king Harald Fairhair. Rolf was probably about ten years old when he moved.
Most probably the family lived at serveral places within the earldom, a period at each place, continously moving around. So being from North Møre, I strongly reject to this nonsens that Rollo was a South Møring!:)

Anyway my believe is that Rollos grandfather Eystein Glumra actually originated from Denmark, as I have argued earlier. Therefore I do not think we will find any Q-L804 in the DNA of Rollos Y-chromosome. But he was “norwegian” anyway, and the orkney and the icelandic sagas are still true.

The reason why you probably will find a lot of Q-L804 in the families originating from Normandy is perhaps that people from this area of Norway followed Rollo to Normandy. And during king Haralds reign and even later, there was a massive imigration from this area to all the viking colonies including Normandy, Orkney, Shetland and Iceland. So you will probably find a lot of Q-L804 also there.

Thank you Eyvind, that was really interesting, it’s a lot like Chinese whispers then:) A story that started to become fact, they even have a statue of Rollo in Alesund, but perhaps that is more to do with him being Earl of the area as opposed to an indication of his birth origin. How Q-L804 arrived in Scandinavia is a mystery in itself, we know that around 17,000 years ago it shared an ancestor with the native Americans, but then there is a massive gap until our lineage seems to begin in Norway. It appears in northern Sweden too, fairly high percentages as you said in Iceland, and a few random ones in the Shetlands and Orkneys. The man who shares a very distant ancestor with us has the surname McSwain, and he’s from the Isle of Sky in the Hebrides. His family legend is that they descend from an ancient king of Scandinavia, he did tell me the full story once, so I’ll have to see if I can find it in my messages. The current theory is that L804 began it’s journey from Norway then spread to Sweden, though what appears to be an older line has now been found in Germany. My guess is that our ancestor followed Rollo from that More area, but if his DNA shows him to be Danish, there is no way we can prove it sadly. Hopefully the results will be announced soon.

Haplogroup Q, Huns, Native American, etc. etc. and a small pocket from one descendant in Sweden, fascinating stuff. Anyway, Rollo and his descendants will not be found to be haplogroup Q. Also, how can you say your dad is of Viking origin, makes no sense. Vikings raided, ie left Scandinavia but of course some went back. Those that never left to go Viking, are not Viking, pretty simple. And those that moved to Scandinavia after the Viking age are also not of Viking descent. The current Scandinavian population is not a reflection of Vikings, the Black Death wiped out a huge percent of the true Scandinavian population, probably of similar stock to the Vikings. Besides, we can be sure Vikings also comprised multiple haplogroups. Anyway Q? Neah, not a chance.

That is just one persons theory that it came with the Huns. Where do yet get that it comes from one person in Sweden? This branch of Q has been in Scandinavia for many years, it is found in the Shetlands and Iceland, both early colonies settled by Norwegian Vikings, or shall we say travelers, you need to read the findings of the Shetland Islands project by David Faux, what they discovered there was that there was as much of this branch of Q as there was l1, see this link:- http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1a.html This is more of a reflection of the older population of Scandinavia than the current findings.

You know, I really give up with you people, we have a family history that we can trace back through land records and charters to just after the Norman Conquest of England, the family is even mentioned in French records before the conquest. We know our family history, and if they arrived from Normandy, and my Dad and other male members of the same branch of our family match men from Norway, Iceland, Normandy and the Shetlands, then yes, he has Viking blood as his ancestor obviously traveled from Scandinavia to Normandy somehow!

I want to know how you can “prove” your grandfather was the legitimate Y-DNA contributor to your father. Have you tri-angulated for every one of these 35 generations and worked the genealogies down from each branch to a living male to whom you match. All of Rollo’s line were dead- even before William the conquerer. The only possible living matches to Rollo would be the bastard lines of which there will be NO papertrail. I agree with you that there is a probability that this sample could turn out to be “Q”,but it could just as easily be sythian type “A1b”.

Hi, I have been running a surname project through FTDNA for a number of years now, testing other male Dawtrys and Dealtrys (another variant of our name) from Yorkshire and elsewhere, (though our main seats were in Yorkshire and Sussex). So far, we have 5 who are all Q-L804, one has proved to be an older line, this we have found through testing novel SNPs at YSEQ. So our shared ancestor is probably around 1400. I don’t know if our family were always this haplogroup, there are so many non paternal events it seems in all families, that we will probably never know without digging up a very distant ancestor:) Our family name was originally de Hauterive , this then became de Altaripa (the latinised version) around 1124 when we find the first charters with our family recorded. As time went by, it became Dealtry and Dawtry, obviously spelt as it sounded to an English ear. My family have been in Yorkshire for hundreds of years, my grandfather born there, and I have his line back to the early 1600s in Pontefract. Through the testing, I found another Dawtry who had also traced his tree back to Pontefract, and the results showed we shared an ancestor around 1700. So, from this results, and that of the Dealtry, we know that at least as far back as c1400, we were haplogroup Q and all shared an ancestor.

As I’ve said before, I have never indicated that I thought Rollo was my ancestor, only that it’s possible he could also have been a Q if he was from More in Norway. Around 10% of the current population there today are still Q-L804, G also appears in the same percentage. It seems to have a unique gene pool. Of course R1a, l1 and R1b also appear there, but not in the large percentages that are seen elsewhere in Norway. I’m not sure if A1b has ever been found in More, but who knows, anything is possible at this point I’m sure. I agree, there are no recorded male line descendants of Rollo, but you have to bare in mind the number of illegitimates back then, I think its still possible somebody out there will find they are a descendant of the great Viking Cheiftan, but they probably have no idea. The other scenario is that he had male family members with him in Normandy, they should also have been of the same haplogroup as Rollo, but their lines not recorded. The results could be very interesting, or there may be no matches at all.

As I said before, I am not suggesting Rollo or his family were out of haplogroup Q, just that it has to be considered that if he came from More in Norway to Paris before being granted land in Normandy, then he would have brought men with him from the same area who were haplogroup Q. It was just an argument in support of him having a Norwegian origin over a Danish one, but hopefully once the results are in, we will all know more.

Only a small part of the population went viking. They typically raided during the summer season and stayed with their families in Scandinavia during the winter season.

The original meaning of “viking” is “warrior”. But today we use the therm in a more demographic sense, denoting the whole culture of Scandinavia from that period.

It is true that well over 50 % of the population in Norway was lost during the black death. But it did strike quite evenly all over the country. So the percentage of Q-L804 would presumably be the same after.

Due to pour conditions in the centuries following, there has been very little imigration to Norway. And most people could not afford having slaves from foreign countries. So the genetic contents of the population would be more or less unchanged even today, I believe.

No comments yet so might I be right I-M223 Scan , France , England French family PONS De Toeni I am in the FTDNA Normandy project no comments If I am wrong shoot me down I don’t mind I feel I have Viking blood [ Great site good blogs most enjoyable ]

I think we are all just going to have to be very patient and wait for the results to be announced in the Autumn John. A while ago I was told there was a possibility of them being shared in July, but that they wanted to make an official announcement alongside the French in the Autumn. I doubt anything will be leaked or revealed until they are ready to do just that.

Yes, but my concern is that they will find «danish» genes and conclude wrongly that Rollo was a dane, as Michael Maglio did in his study. There is of course no hard evidence supporting the theory that Rolf Ragnvaldssons grandfather actually had moved from Denmark to Norway a couple of generations earlier, and this would seem difficult to prove.

«Typically those with a Q haplotype will have matches in Iceland, Norway, the Faroe Islands with Orkney showing a much smaller percentage. «

The Orkney was largely inhabitated by Rolfs family. Rolf brother Einar, who became earl of the Orkneys, eventually owned all land there, where he naturally would have placed his own offspring and family. Being originally of «danish» descendance, we will not expect this family to have the Q haplotype.

So if there is a match with the DNA of the Orkney people, we will have convincing evidence that Rollo was actually identical to Rolf Ragnvalsson, I believe.

Let’s hope you’re right Eyvind. Perhaps there is a DNA study specifically for the Orkneys, that might give an indication as to what can be expected, which haplogroups are found there for example. I’m not sure if David Faux breaks it down into islands, but I’ll have a look.

First it is plainly evident that the data from the two studies is highly consistent. Secondly,
the Y-DNA haplotypes (“signatures”) of men from Orkney and Shetland are very similar, as
would be predicted from a knowledge of their similar history. Furthermore both are quite
dissimilar to the two regions (Norway and Scotland) which likely provided the vast majority
of the Y-DNA to Shetland – which makes eminently good sense since the two geographic
“parental stock” regions differ significantly from each other – and Shetland is more or less a
statistical amalgam of both. It is interesting, however, that as a result of the Principal
Component plots (statistical procedure), the authors conclude that, “in light of these
simulations……Orkney and Shetland have significant Norwegian input but little to no
German / Danish input” – meaning that there was not evidence of an Anglo – Saxon or
Danish Viking contribution from any source to the Shetland gene pool. This is an important
finding in relation to the interpretation of the haplotypes observed in the Shetland Surname
DNA Project.

This study found over 50% of
the participants with a R1b haplogroup, and a R1a finding in line with that observed by
Capelli for Norway, as well as a surprising low percentage of those with haplogroup I (well
below that observed in Scandanavian countries). A very surprising finding was haplogroup Q
(associated with East Asia and Native North Americans – including Greenland Inuit) at a
level comparable to haplogroup I. Since the sample size was under 40, we need to be careful
in making too much of the “surprising” findings – but do need to explain where the Q came
from.

Interesting.
So if I am rigth about Rolf Ragnvaldssons grandfather having moved from “Denmark” to “Norway”, it would then be more or less impossible to prove that the sagas were correct about Rollo being identical to Rolf. This family would then have left very few genetic footprints both in Norway and Orkney.
I hope I am wrong. Just have to wait and see…

Hi Eyvind, I’m a bit confused over this Denmark to Norway bit, what haplogroup do you think Rolf was, is there one specific to Denmark, or him having a Danish origin? I’ll have to look in the Scandinavian DNA project, see what results they found for the population. I believe the assumption is that like Germany, the Danish were l1 predominantly, that’s why in this country they find it hard to distinguish between men who have a Saxon, or a Danish Viking origin as the DNA is so close. You should look at projects in FTDNA (family tree DNA), there are some really interesting ones in there, some are by surname, others by country.

It would, I think, be impossible to prove the identity of Rollo by simply looking at his haplogroup. We would have to compare more detailed genetic information with a DNA database to se where we have most occurences of the same DNA.

If we find most occurences in the area where Rolf Ragnvaldsson lived in Norway, the case is clear.

But if it is correct that Rolfs grandfather moved from Denmark to Norway, we will probably find most occurences in Denmark. This family moved on to the Orkneys after only two generations in Norway, and would probably have left few DNA traces in Norway, I believe.

However if we can find any matching DNA in the Orkneys, Shetland or even the north of Scotland, we would be quite sure that Rollo is identical to Rolf Ragnvaldsson anyway, as we know that these areas have very little danish influence.

I agree, and expect they will be looking at the bigger picture, it depends how in depth their testing is going to be, and if they run the results through any databases such as FTDNA to find matches.

It may be quite simple with them just giving his haplogroup though ,as they did with Richard 111, so nobody will be any the wiser at the end of the day. However, having said that, the purpose of the tests was to define whether Rollo was Danish or Norwegian to end the long dispute, so I’m sure they will do all they can to prove their findings.

Not sure if you have ever done a DNA test, but if you do a male line one, you get matches, and also a breakdown of your origins- ancestral and haplogroup, that way you can generally see where your ancestor came from, it’s harder with R1b though, and I’m not sure about l1.

This is obviously a top priority project, including senior experts of archeology, history and forensic investigation from Norway, Denmark and France. If it is at all possible, they will discover the identity of Rollo.
At least we could hope for a fair probability of his identity, which together with other historical and more mythical indications would be enough to conclude one way or the other.

I think there is every possibility that they will Eyvind, whatever the outcome, the results will be interesting and informative I’m sure, hopefully offering an insight into the lives and times of the Normans too.

Could the Q haplogroup in Norway be a result of norwegians having offsprings with native american slaves?

The small norwegian viking settlement in New Foundland was belived to be a service station for repairing viking ships. This would indicate that there was actually a lot of traffic there, or else they would not be able to make a living from such a specialized occupation.

There were no monistries or cities with silver valuables to loot here, so the main reason why they would travel this far would be slaves, being sold at markets back in Norway at a high price. It is reasonable to think that there were actually many native american slaves in Norway.

The norwegians settling in Iceland however, according to their own sagas, reproduced with celtic slaves. This was also most likely the case for Orkney and Shetland, I believe.

Hello Eyvind, it’s a good theory, and one that was initially considered, but when further advanced testing became available, it was found that my Dads branch of Q had not shared an ancestor with the native Americans for over 17000 years. At some point 17000 years ago, they went across the Bering Strait land bridge into America, whilst our ancestors were somewhere in Europe. It’s a very distant connection, as Scandinavia was covered in ice until around 11000BC, and not settled until around 7000BC, so it’s a real mystery to all of us. They are still our very distant cousins though which fascinates me. Most of the men who carry this haplogroup are very Nordic looking, not what you would expect, they are very tall, blonde and blue eyed, but what their ancestor looked like could have been a very different matter. My Dad for example is 6ft tall, blue eyed, and fair skinned, all the rest in the group are likewise, though sometimes a slant and smallness of the eyes combined with high cheekbones, gives a hint to their ancestry.

I read somewhere that scientists discovered through DNA tests that the males on the islands were found to be predominantly Norse, but the women were a different matter, and were found to have a Celtic origin, so they think the Vikings shipped in women from Scotland, or were local. I’m not sure about Iceland as I think it was settled by both males and females from Norway. The amount of male R1b in the Shetlands surprises me as it’s associated with the Celts, so I can only assume a significant number of the Norse who settled there were also R1B.

R1B is the most common group in West Europ, therefor, in the beginning of the Dna science it was told that it was a Celtic Dna. But now as we learned more and dicovered more and more sub groups like P312+ or its descendant SNPs, like DF19+, DF99+, L238, U152+, L21+, DF27+, ZZ37+, etc. We known that this was not correct. My own, p.ex. Is a sub, sub group of Df19, it is Z27257. The Issog tree is far, far behind, a lot of new haplos are still not in it. The origine is German and the tribe area (-200 + 800) was South Denmark, North Germany. Be sure, in that watten region, there lived a lot of, for now, unnown tribes. So the history of the nordic tribes is still to discover, therefor it is much to narrow and much to “patriotic” to look at the history with Norsk or a Danisch glasses. History deserves better.

I know exactly what you mean Paul, I have a project member who is R1b, and the beauty of it now is that through additional testing, you can really narrow down their origin. As I’ve said before, our family history is that we have a Norman ancestry, and this project member found that he matched a tiny group of men all with known family origins from Normandy, and most likely wealthy landed Norman families, I can’t put names here for privacy reasons. Whether their branch came out of Scandinavia, or was always French, we do not know though, they have no matches in Scandinavia as yet, so I think it’s unlikely. However, another of my R1b project members sharing a Norman ancestry, does match men in Norway and Sweden, predominantly Norway, but the implication is that it derived long ago in Ireland. I’m sure there is a Nordic R1b, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Dukes turned out to be R1b.

Totally concur about R1b, the Graves of Angle nobles unearthed in Northumbria showed an ancient British type dna yet their wives and females buried with them were of Scandinavian origin . Alfred the Great who was King of the West Saxons and whose Great great Grandaughter married William, according to the Anglo Saxon chronicles the founder of the Wessex dynasty Alfred’s ancestor was a Briton Cerdic . The first Seagoing peoples of the North Sea noted by the Greeks and Romans were the Setanti a sept of the Brigantes who know doubt sailed to Norway and Denmark long before the Romans marched into Gaul. There is a copy of a letter in the Vatican of a letter by the King of Denmark asking him to intercede with the King of England to stop English Cod fishermen raiding Iceland for slaves in the 15th Century . Genes have been moving round the North Sea and Atlantic for centuries so I wait with baited breath for the results. But remember William was known as the Bastard because his mother was a Tanners daughter who may have been Jewish according to some sources and not married to his Father !

I really do hope that they can prove his origin and identity, it would be a dream come true if the Icelandic Sagas could be proved to actually have been based on fact, but I have my reservations as I have seen so many broken lines in my time. If the line is unbroken, then we should see a good result, but I wouldn’t bank on it.

That is Iceland originally had celtic slaves to be more presice. It lays in the middle of the track between New Foundland and Norway, so there must have been native americans slaves here to after this traffic started…

I see what you mean now, yes, it’s possible, and I believe they have found some evidence of that in the female population, just not in the males, it seems they often went Viking for women 🙂 In our DNA project, we have advanced the test of one Icelandic Q members, and his results showed that he shared an ancestor with one of the Norwegian men in the group around 1500, so there were later influxes from Norway to Iceland too, the other Icelandic Qs are similar we suspect, all coming from Norway, but at different stages.

I was curious so I asked the guy who cuts my grass (and he does a fine job at that) what is his haplogroup and he said Q. He said most of the guys that work with him are also haplogroup Q. Not your typical viking though, short, dark skinned, not sure what they say cause I don’t speak their language. I doubt Rollo’s descendants are the guys cutting my lawn though, anything is possible though..

Ho fucking ho, I don’t suppose your gardener has any idea what haplogroup he has, and it’s a very racist comment, what do you guys have against people with a Q, or native origin, or do I really need to I ask. If you can’t make an intelligent comment, then why post at all.

There is a Scandinavian y-DNA project that will give you an idea about possible outcomes.
Q is possible. Is it more or less likely, no one knows? Of course, we all what or own haplogroup to come up the same as Rollo. Good luck!

I thought it was a little bit racist of you to assume my gardener doesn’t know his haplogroup, what do you have against him or his people? Oh well, the typical liberal response when someone doesn’t agree, call names and cry racism I suppose. Anyway, there certainly must be a lot of people awaiting this announcement, hopefully soon. We should all be adults about this and it is nice to see people dreaming about possibly matching when there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell, dreaming is good, I usually do it in the evening though but kudos to all!

@Warman, you’re incorrect about the DYS markers for William the Conqueror. Please stop posting your incorrect information. I see you have copied the information found on OriginHunter’s website. Michael Maglio is incorrect in his calculation of William the Conqueror’s yDNA DYS values.

My thoughts since this article came out in the spring / summer There are those power full enough to put the mockers on this if it goes against them , Ie power full UK & EUROPEAN families so easy these days to smother the evidence if they do not like it My feelings are it was R1a & Rollo was from Normandy shame it was such an exiting DNA project to some of us.

Rolf Ragnvaldsson (presumably Rollo) would most probably have left few Y-DNA traces in Norway. His grandfather, Eystein Glumra, could easily have been an “immigrant”, with no prior Y-DNA traces from Norway.
Rolf and most of his family later emigrated out of Norway.
It would therefore be difficult to identify Rollo based on a geographical Y-DNA analysis, I am afraid.

If so, we must rely on only oral information to decide if Rollo actually was identical to the notorious viking chieftian Rolf Ragnvaldsson or some unknown danish prince.

Both the Orkney saga and the sagas written by the icelandic historian Snorre Sturlason some generations later, claim that Rollo was identical to Rolf Ragnvaldsson. These sagas are generally believed to be quite truthful.
We actually base most of the knowledge of the viking history and culture on this information.

After beeing expelled from Norway for raiding king Haralds Hairfairs birthplace, Rolf became a successful chieftain of a large band of outlaw vikings based in the Hebrides west of Scotland. They were continiously raiding both in France and other countries.

The personalities of both Rolf and Rollo are matching, both being described as big powerfull and fearsome warriors. Even Rolfs own mother described him as a “dangerous wolf”, not to be trifled with.

After settling in Normandy, a large number of people emigrated from Møre in the north west coastal part of Norway, Rolfs homeplace, to Normandy.

The french historian, Dudo, however claimed that he was the son of a king from Danisia. This has been interpreted as Denmark. But the term Danisia was actually sometimes used, also by Dudo, for all of Scandinavia, not only Denmark.

Rolfs father, Ragnvald Eysteinson, became earl of a relative large area, previously consisting of three different kingdoms, – Nordmøre, Romsdal and Sunnmøre. He became a very powerfull leader, establishing the important viking center of Orkney, with connections all the way to the middle east.
He could easily have been reviewed as a king from «Danisia».

Dudo also wrote that prior to his arrival in Normandy, Rollo lived in a small island protected by high alps (stags).
This is definitly not Denmark, which of course is flat as a pancake.
The topology of the Hebrides, Rolfs hideout, however matches this description very well.

Hi Eyvind, that was a really interesting read, so thank you for posting it. I suppose it depends what tests they are going to apply to the teeth or bones they have found, and how good the samples are too, It’s either going to produce a conclusive result, or a vague one. It is possible through DNA testing to look at origins from results by comparing matches, this might just be where Rollo’s deep ancestry comes to light. I believe the results will be announced soon, the French authorities are also involved, so I expect it might be a joint announcement in the near future:)

Yes Kim, I hope you are rigth. It would certainly be exciting to have a clear identification of Rollo, based on genetic analyzes.

However this can not be accieved by an geographical genetic analysis, where you compare the Y-DNA findings to a database of DNA from different geographical areas, I think.
If I am correct about Rolfs grandfather being an “immigrant”, Rolf would have left very few Y-DNA traces in Norway, if any. The analysis will then show most matching occurences of this DNA in the area where his grandfather originated from.
This could then lead to the wrong conclusion that Rollo is not identical to the “norwegian” Rolf Ragnvaldsson, and the sagas would be wrong. So this is certainly not an easy task…

You know, reading this back again, you could be right. As you know I’m part of a Nordic DNA group, we have been lucky in that our group is small as the haplogroup is unusual, so it’s easier to look at matches and advance testing. My Dad is one of these men, our ancestry in Norman, and our most direct male line ancestor as showed by testing through Yfull is from the Hebrides, though we have cousins in Norway, More in particular . Makes me wonder if we descend from one of those outlaw Vikings. The groups have been broken down, and so far my Dad has not found his Norwegian ancestors. On the other hand, we have a man from Normandy who believes he is also of Norman descent, and we have found his family is Norway and Iceland, so his ancestor may have been one of the ones who traveled to Normandy at a later date . If both our ancestors were part of that migration into France, then it could support the sagas.

So in reading all of the back and forth (and disappointment) on here, I thought I’d inject my USD$.02.

In a chance finding, I have discovered that I have a 12/12 yDNA match with a patrilineal descendant of Hervey Walter. My match is directly descended from Rollo on their male line. His grandfather is a member of The Peerage of Ireland and UK. (I’m not going to say anymore because I wish to protect this individual’s privacy).

Sufficed to say, his (and my) 12 marker FTDNA yDNA profile is:

13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 28

I hope this bit of info can satiate you guys until Univ. of Olso and Univ. of Cophenhagen publish their findings.

Hi Kim yes I am with FT DNA 1-M223 in a lot of projects My situation is I am French Normandy Like a lot of DNA people our history is get this decendants of Rollo I WISH but could be true ? My Clifford name was from PONS after 1066 More info if you want it, Cant wait for Richard results Kind Regards John Clifford ALBERT at FT DNA

Hi John, I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the Clifford family ancestry, though have seen posts about them being with William the Conqueror in 1066 when the name was apparently then de Pons. Let’s hope they release the results soon, and produce something of interest.

Hello John, I don’t know much about the Clifford family, though have heard they arrived in England with William the Conqueror under the name of Pons as you say. They were quite a big family in the north of the country I think? Who knows what the results will bring, we can only watch and wait.

Yes Kim, I hope you are rigth.
It would certainly be exciting to have a clear identification of Rollo, based on genetic analyzes.

However this can not be accieved by an geographical genetic analysis, where you compare the Y-DNA findings to a database of DNA from different geographical areas, I think.
If I am correct about Rolfs grandfather being an “immigrant”, Rolf would have left very few Y-DNA traces in Norway, if any.
The analysis will then show most matching occurences of this DNA in the area where his grandfather originated from.
This could then lead to the wrong conclusion that Rollo is not identical to the “norwegian” Rolf Ragnvaldsson, and the sagas would be wrong.
So this is certainly not an easy task…

I am keeping a very open mind on this one, there were far too many illegitimate children around for my liking, it’s rare to find a pure male line that hasn’t been broken somewhere. A conclusive result would be a Scandinavian haplogroup, or one that is found in the areas associated with the origins of Rollo. I suppose we will just have to wait and see. I really do hope they have found something.

Yes Kim, If you have a connection both to Normandy, the Hebrides and Møre in Norway, this would support the sagas claiming that Rollo was identical to Rolf Ragnvaldsson.
At the time when Rolf was expelled from Norway, he had become a rather successfull chieftain with his own ships with men from Møre in Norway. They established a stronghold in the Hebrides, according to the sagas. He later also became leader of an allready existing band of outlaws from different countries, also hiding out in this area. Together with his brother, Einar Ragnvaldsson who bacame earl of Orkney, Northern Irland, and parts of Scotland, they would certainly form an impressive army.

Thanks Eyvind, that is really quite amazing, we have been puzzling over the Hebrides connection for such a long time, I had no idea Rolf used the islands to hide out in. They must have been a real force to contend with, quite a menacing army. I would show you the results of our project to date, but I can’t add an attachment here it seems:( I’ll try to copy it for you somehow a bit later on.

Interesting info Chris…
I suppose you are talking about the male line from Hervey Walter de Clare (1100?-1189) in Normandy, supposidly the fifth grandson of Richard the fearless (the grandson of Rollo).

Your Y-DNA also matches surprisingly well with the DNA string Michael Maglio used in his report on Rollo in Origin Hunters.

However I do not think one can prove the Rollo/Rolf Ragnvaldsson connection simply by looking at the haphlogroup. The R1b group is quite ordinary both in Norway and Denmark, and even more common in Irland and Normandy.
We would need a really close match with the DNA of anyone from Orkney, Shetland or northern parts of Scotland. This is where we would expect to find any descendants of Rolfs brother Einar Ragnvaldsson. This areas was purely Norwegian, with no genetic infuence from Denmark.
So we will just have to wait and see…

Tomren, Flaten and Årset are typical old local names (placenames or farmnames) from Møre in the nort-west part of Norway. Adding the name of the farm or village to your name was common practice a couple of centuries ago.

McSwainn, would perhaps be “son of Svein”, which was the most common norwegian first name during the viking period. Meaning boy, or lad. “Sven” in Sweedish.

There is a believe that the Q-haphlogroup in Iceland and Norway originates from native indian slaves imported from North America. In Iceland there are quite a few with Q-Haplogroup, and they all stam from one particular farm.
I know you have written that your DNA originates from the far east thousands of years ago. But there is also a new theory that the north american indians actually immigrated from the far east over the Bering Strait about 13.000 years ago.http://time.com/3964634/native-american-origin-theory/

Oh I see, yes, the men are mainly from the More area, though we have some distant matches in Sweden too, some in the north of Sweden, and others around Gothenburg.

I’m not convinced by the native American theory to be honest, they do not show as matches for us, and are all M3 positive, we are M3 negative. Also, I think if slaves had been brought back from there, it would have been recorded in the sagas, it would have been quite an event with these strange new people arriving on their shores.

What results are showing at the moment, is our oldest ancestor came through Germany, one of the branches shares an ancestor with him around 200 AD that is the oldest branch for us so far, so I think our ancestors might have arrived with the Goths. There is also a Q-L804 in Denmark who hasn’t as yet taken the Big Y, and a few more in Germany too.

Given the unprecedented access given to the researchers it’s more important that the extraction, sequencing and analysis of the sample is done properly even if it takes a while longer. The delay could be anything from unexpected results, damaged DNA, lab delays etc.

You can’t base a 1200 year old relationship on 12 STR’s. Any possible descendants will have to match recent, unique SNP’s carried by both men. The only way to really tell with a high degree of probability is for testing to begin on the remains of Rollo himself and isotope results which match certain geographic areas during his during different stages of his life.

I will agree that 12 str markers will be insufficient to determine if Rollo and Hrolf are the same individual. I feel this is mainly due to not having a baseline for Hrolf, but also due to the diversity of the broader yDNA population. That said, even before I learned the relevance of who my match is descended from, I was able identify a large number of 12/12 matches within the FTDNA system. I feel that there is some interesting info that could be derived from this dataset, but ive never had anyone take me seriously enough before to look the data from the standpoint that the larger population is of Viking origin. Id be happy to share the info with serious researchers (id prefer they have relevant academic credentials, i.e. Univ. of Olso/Copenhagen) as long as they can show they academically research the topic. I feel that there may be some info relating to where Vikings came from prior to settling in Scandinavia, but I am not academic genetic anthropologist.

Hi Chris can we contact on E MAIL Me cliffordjohn8@hotmail.co.uk I have a lot of Rollo history even going to France with The Clifford Association having said that DNA ROLLO does not yet exist Kind Regards John Clifford

The problem is that there are more than a dozen lines (that I’m aware of) with Y different haplogroups…all are claiming some sort of paternal line descent from Rollo. These haplogroups are thousands of years prior to (some tens of thousands of years) in terms of a most recent common ancestor. Once a recent common SNP can be determined then STR’s “may” be able to help tweak the timeline within the past 1,000 years. The problem is that when dealing with ancient remains there are “usually” gaps in the segments due to damage. If a few unique SNP’s can be obtained from the sequencing then a certain haplogroup may be looked at more closely.

You can have matches of 90 out of 100 STR’s but if those 10 which are mismatching happen to be slow (in terms of a statistical mutation event), they can be from a completely different haplogroup with a most recent common ancestor being 5,000 years ago and the rest are just convergence.

My guess is that there will be a lot of disappointed people..there can be only one haplogroup that is more than 1200 years old “if” the segments are intact. It’s more likely they will reveal (when made public) an older defining SNP for the specific haplogroup and do the more recent “tweaking” internally (IMO).

One of these lines might be descendants of the family of Rollo, but many will be from a broken male line and descend from a female of that family. There can only be one Y-DNA signature for Rollo, and as they are testing the two Richards, we may never know, they could be illegitimate. I’m hoping one, if not both of them will show some sort of Scandinavian signature to their DNA, but I suspect the results might be a bit obscure.

Actually, I hate to disappoint everyone here. I can trace my direct line to Rollo, being a direct descendant of William Longsword. My family did pass through Scandinavia, coming from Norway, then Denmark and Normandy Frmance, but we are haplogroup E-M78. I know it does not fit the mythical viking I1 or R1B phenotype, but make no mistake, I have actual proof. Rollo’s line was of relatively recent, Moorish, North African descent, and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. He might have been light skinned, but do not doubt his physical characteristics were black. That is the reason for the hold-up and the lengthy time, but no amount of re-testing will change the results. We were known as Bla-Maors and we were/are fierce. Its time for history to come clean. Here is a link to learn more below.

The comments on the page you linked to are worth reading as they explain the use of the adjective “black” in Norse/Danish culture and language. Black is used to describe being angry, not skin color. I don’t doubt that these dark skinned people that you reference existed, however the article you link to does not reference Rollo or Hrolf Ragnvaldson specifically. Hg-E also is very specific to Ethiopia. The best yDNA anchor-line for now remains the line of Hervey Walter.

Haplogroup E-M78 originated in North Africa, but due to geneflow and conquest of the Moors/Berbers, spread throughout Europe. I am E-M78 and a direct descendant of William Longsword and Rollo. This is the reason for the hold up of the results. They don’t want to accept the truth, that vikings were black. We are talking dark as night, and extinguishable in height and physical prowess. With African Americans being superior in sports today, can you imagine when they were suited and booted in full viking garb, Afros,heights way above average Europeans with spears, battle axes and shields? Its no wonder they were so victorious in battle. Yes, i do believe they might have lightened up a little due to being the minority in Europe, but that is the only concession. Here is another link proving my point.

Please post your believed patriline from William Longsword (I, [there were two, the more (relatively) recent one being a Plantagenet who was murdered]), your ySearch.org info, and any other proof you have for public analysis.

I am surprised you are challenging my patriline. I guess its too hard for some to believe that the vikings were indeed black! Please see my information below and remember, just because the vikings were black, does not mean we cannot celebrate Scandinavia…we just need to give Africans their due!

my mom: Dana Cornly
her dad: Sam S. Cornly
his mom: J. Sanders,
her mom: M. Smith,
her mom: L. Harding,
her dad: Thomas B. Harding V,
his dad: Thomas Harding IV,
his dad: Thomas Harding III,
his mom: Mary Hayward,
her dad: Edward Hayward II,
his dad: Edward Hayward I,
his dad: John William Hayward
his mom: Margery Thayer,
her dad: John Thayer III,
his mom: Constance de Holbrook,
her mom: Edith E. Saunders,
her dad: John Saunders III,
his mom: Joan Carew,
her dad: Thomas II Carew,
his dad: Nicholas Carew V,
his mom: Isabel Willoughby,
her mom: Joan de Grey,
her dad: John de Grey II,
his dad: John de Grey I,
his mom: Joan de Valognes,
her dad: Thomas de Valognes,
his mom: Isabel de Creke,
her mom: Agnes de Glanville,
her mom: Gundred de Warenne,
her mom: Adelia de Ponthieu,
her mom: Helene de Bourgogne,
her mom: Sibylla de Bourgogne,
her dad: William de Bourgogne I,
his mom: Alice de Normandy,
her dad: Richard de Normandy II,
his dad: Richard de Normandy I,
his dad: William de Normandy I,
his dad: ROLLO RAGNVALDSSON,
his dad: ROGNVALD EYSTEINSSON,
his mom: A. ROGNVALDSDATTER,
her mom: Thora SIGURDSDATTER,
her dad: SIGURD RAGNARRSON
His had Ragnar Lodbrok Sigurdsson
His father Quami Abdella
His father Shaquille Abdella
His Father Ahmed Abdella

It appears that you do not understand what is being discussed in this thread from a genetics point of view. The lineage you have provided suggests (and does not prove) a non-patrilineal line of descent from Rollo through your mother’s family. In order for your yDNA to match Rollo’s, you must be a male whose father’s father’s father’s father, etc… would have to descend from an agnate of Rollo.

Huh? Are you denying my lineage??? Drop your racist blinders and review my patriline again! Does it not occur to you that an Islamic to pagan conversion occurred while in ancient Scandinavia. It was quite common for the time, for survival purposes. I refer you again to yet another article proving vikings were black. Educate yourself and remember we are all one people…

links to Rollo Richard 1/2 & William are only assumptions it is only in your head that you believe this evidence, THE TRUE DNA results might or might not come out when results come out shortly be prepared to be disappointed BUT it might be the best news for a long time BEST OF LUCK

There is no way to know with absolute certainty what the genetic male line is/was until the results are made public. There are a lot of good arguments for the “true” genetic line but the more interesting ones are those that have “multiple” historic ( yet unproven connections) in terms of different surnames. In order to establish fact from fiction those lines need to have NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) done and those family lines (genetics and genealogy) need to be placed side by side to see if they fit the approximate period descending from Rollo and the genealogy claims.

So far the most interesting haplogroups which Rollo may belong to (that I’ve seen) are I-M253, R1a, R-Z251 & R-S1051. That doesn’t mean that it won’t turn out to be E, Q, R-L1335, U152, N etc it just means I haven’t seen enough evidence to interest me pertaining to Rollo. It’s true there are some possible ties for haplogroup E and this haplogroup does turn up different “prominent” historical family lines from Europe. The question is “Does it connect to Rollo’s male line though?”…as Kim mentioned there are different lines which may have tied into maternally and there is an old genealogy error.

I’m not purporting to know the haplogroup..only the totality of evidence that more interesting to link him to one of those haplogroups. Fascinating from a historical context if it does out to be something like haplogroup E, N etc.

Actually I have a perfect understanding, and have shown that through previous posts. If you view my patriline below, you see my point. As you can see Ahmed came from Nothern Africa, into Europe, headed north and into Scandinavia. Based on extreme pressure, he converted, changing names in the process. Ahmed is the source of Ragnar, and thus the results are proving this. Thats why the DNA results are not being released! Please, educate yourself with my past links and posts.

Thanks

my mom: Dana Cornly
her dad: Sam S. Cornly
his mom: J. Sanders,
her mom: M. Smith,
her mom: L. Harding,
her dad: Thomas B. Harding V,
his dad: Thomas Harding IV,
his dad: Thomas Harding III,
his mom: Mary Hayward,
her dad: Edward Hayward II,
his dad: Edward Hayward I,
his dad: John William Hayward
his mom: Margery Thayer,
her dad: John Thayer III,
his mom: Constance de Holbrook,
her mom: Edith E. Saunders,
her dad: John Saunders III,
his mom: Joan Carew,
her dad: Thomas II Carew,
his dad: Nicholas Carew V,
his mom: Isabel Willoughby,
her mom: Joan de Grey,
her dad: John de Grey II,
his dad: John de Grey I,
his mom: Joan de Valognes,
her dad: Thomas de Valognes,
his mom: Isabel de Creke,
her mom: Agnes de Glanville,
her mom: Gundred de Warenne,
her mom: Adelia de Ponthieu,
her mom: Helene de Bourgogne,
her mom: Sibylla de Bourgogne,
her dad: William de Bourgogne I,
his mom: Alice de Normandy,
her dad: Richard de Normandy II,
his dad: Richard de Normandy I,
his dad: William de Normandy I,
his dad: ROLLO RAGNVALDSSON,
his dad: ROGNVALD EYSTEINSSON,
his mom: A. ROGNVALDSDATTER,
her mom: Thora SIGURDSDATTER,
her dad: SIGURD RAGNARRSON
His had Ragnar Lodbrok Sigurdsson
His father Quami Abdella
His father Shaquille Abdella
His Father Ahmed Abdella

Like Ramses 11 and Tutankhamen whose DNA was done years ago and they haven’t released the results still it will be R1b and WAMH , after the Ice Age some of them drifted back into North Africa as evidenced by males of Siwa and others went North again into Germania and eastwards but the majority went to Britain !

Unless it was incorrect information…the line from Seti was “supposed” to be from haplogroup E but nothing has been published regarding Tutankhamen. They are probably getting all of their “Mummies in a row” regarding genetic testing before making it public.

Tut was R1b1a2. I’ve confirmed this. Some online geneticists (credentialed folks that use the same software as was used in the Tut DNA documentary) were able to take screen shots of the actual analysis graphs and derive the yDNA marker values. R-M269.

If there actually exists a known direct male line from William the Conqueror (Rollos fifth grandson), woudn’t he be the king of England now?
Actually, the throne was on serveral occations given to a female member of the royal family, in lack of male descendants.

One reason why the result prolongs, could be inconclusive evidence, or desagreement on the interpretation of the evidence.
Another reason could be reluctance of the french attorities to focus on genetis.
In Normandy genetic testing has long been popular, with unwanted tendecies of segregation between people with “viking genes” and others.

This is of course based on a big misconseption.
The prototypic attributes of the vikings can not be explained in terms of genetics.
The viking population belonged to many different haplogroups, as scandinavians do today.
There is of course not one specific “viking gene” which would account for the success of the vikings.

For example, Rolf Ragnvaldsson was one of the most iconic and heroic characters. His half brother Hallad however, sharing the same Y-DNA, was just a joke.

The original meaning of the therm “viking”, is most probably just “warrior”, derived from the norse “vig” meaning “war” or “slaying”. These people were extremely well prepeared and committet in what ever they did. So in a senense, anyone could be a viking, regardless of birth or genetic origins.

The reason for the delay of the results is because Rollo was E-M78. That is a North African haplogroup and being black does not fit into the viking narrative. Please see my patriline below. Thanks
my mom: Dana Cornly
her dad: Sam S. Cornly
his mom: J. Sanders,
her mom: M. Smith,
her mom: L. Harding,
her dad: Thomas B. Harding V,
his dad: Thomas Harding IV,
his dad: Thomas Harding III,
his mom: Mary Hayward,
her dad: Edward Hayward II,
his dad: Edward Hayward I,
his dad: John William Hayward
his mom: Margery Thayer,
her dad: John Thayer III,
his mom: Constance de Holbrook,
her mom: Edith E. Saunders,
her dad: John Saunders III,
his mom: Joan Carew,
her dad: Thomas II Carew,
his dad: Nicholas Carew V,
his mom: Isabel Willoughby,
her mom: Joan de Grey,
her dad: John de Grey II,
his dad: John de Grey I,
his mom: Joan de Valognes,
her dad: Thomas de Valognes,
his mom: Isabel de Creke,
her mom: Agnes de Glanville,
her mom: Gundred de Warenne,
her mom: Adelia de Ponthieu,
her mom: Helene de Bourgogne,
her mom: Sibylla de Bourgogne,
her dad: William de Bourgogne I,
his mom: Alice de Normandy,
her dad: Richard de Normandy II,
his dad: Richard de Normandy I,
his dad: William de Normandy I,
his dad: ROLLO RAGNVALDSSON,
his dad: ROGNVALD EYSTEINSSON,
his mom: A. ROGNVALDSDATTER,
her mom: Thora SIGURDSDATTER,
her dad: SIGURD RAGNARRSON
His had Ragnar Lodbrok Sigurdsson
His father Quami Abdella
His father Shaquille Abdella
His Father Ahmed Abdella

Did you not understand what was previously posted, it’s male to male for YDNA so you can leave out the her mom, his mom, it has to be son, to father, to father, to father, straight male line ancestors and that is not what you’ve presented.

It could be a case of there is no legitimate male line down from Rollo, but an illegitimate may emerge. There is also the possibility that family traveled with him from Norway to the Hebrides, male cousins also sharing his haplogroup, so the results I’m sure, in one way or another will be interesting, even if they show that the Dukes could not possibly have been the descendants of Rollo.

By the time the “Vikings” arrived in Normandy, I’m sure there would have been a real mix of haplogroups among them. I heard once also that the Kings and Jarls of old, were appointed solely for their bravery and leadership qualities, not from birth right, so Rollo could indeed have been of any haplogroup.

This has been an unsolved mystery for two centuries.
I am not very hopeful, but it would be nice to have a conclusive result, one way or the other.
If they just would go public with the DNA profile, people could start comparing their own profile and we can probably find more matches.

I agree Eyvind, they certainly did take a lot of willing, and no doubt sometimes unwilling partners:(

I wish they would just get on with releasing the results now too, whatever the outcome was. Are you in Norway at all? There is a facebook group if you are for men and women of Norwegian ancestry, it goes with the Norways DNA project through ftdna? Sturla from explico sometimes comments on there. They are very protective over the results though, and who they let into the group. My guess is it’s legalities now regarding the test results but they actually do have the results.

Hello John, it’s unlikely they will let you join as you have no known or proven links to Norway. It’s a group based around a DNA project specifically for men and women with Norwegian ancestry going back a few hundred years only, they have very kindly let me join as my Dad matches quite a few men in the group, and has a unique and unquestionable Scandinavian haplogroup. I also co-admin for a couple of projects, one of them being Nordic Q. If you want to take a look though this is the project:- https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/norway/about/background. The facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/NorwayDNA/

Hi Kim I am very interested in the Iles I know nothing apart from My ancestors came from Scandinavia then I think to the Iles then a brief time in Ireland then Normandy if which I have as everyone has Normandy History can you enlighten me in the Iles Norman Viking wise Iam 1 – M223 Normandy Kind Regards John Clifford

Hello again John, your family history is quite something, the Cliffords were a huge landed family in England, and the implied origin is Viking through Normandy. The only trouble with I-M223 is that it’s so widely spread, doesn’t rule it out as a contender though, but in Norway it’s on a par with my Dad’s Q in the present day population, a small group. I have a feeling it’s origin might be more south of Scandinavian, not so much from that More area in Norway, but then you have to look at the bigger picture with families leaving Norway to settle elsewhere, leaving behind few family traces. I always think of the times of Harald Fairhair to being on a par with ethnic cleansing:)

Forgot to add, if you have tested through FTDNA, what did your matches and ancestral origins look like? When my Dad tested I was confused by his results thinking Q to be native American, but then finding a string of matches in Scandinavia and also the man in Normandy. This was when the penny dropped, and then obviously from speaking to his matches and learning about their own ancestry. We have a fairly close match around Trondheim, but he hasn’t as yet upgraded to BigY, the Swedish matches were interesting to say the least. He only had 2 matches in the UK at that time, if you take out the other Dawtry, the others were all obviously Norse. What I’m trying to say is use your matches and other origins and a good guide, I do a lot of research for people , so if you ever want to share, I’m sure I could help.

I wouldn’t read too much into the STR “analysis” that was gleaned from the documentary. For all any one knows it could have just been a made for TV re-enactment of the analysis and the results have nothing to do with him. So in my opinion you should take it with a grain of salt until the actual results are published (just like Rollo and his descendants). It could be R-M269..just too big of an assumption to make when taken from a TV program yet not stated publicly by the researchers involved.

Correction Eyvind, I have a 12/12 yDNA with a patrilineal descendant of Hervey Walter. My best deductions to how I fit into the picture are that I’m descended from a John Carrington, Esq. of Rivenhall in Essex. This Carrington line gave rise to the Smiths of Smith Bank and Co from Nottingham, England. They are very well documented and they would only be very distantly related to me if I am right. One gentleman of this line is the leader of The House of Lords in The UK. This Smith/Carrington line, on the internet at least, is said to descend from Hugh d’Avranches, but I know this to be impossible as he and his heir died at White Ship. The best research I have found suggests that the Carrington line descended from a Marquis of Carentan in Normandy, France. A Marquis is one rank below a Duke. It also appears that Rollo had a half brother: Hrolf Thurstain. He gave rise to Ansfrid I, “le Danois” or “the Dane”.

The way you have listed your ancestry Rollo reveals many breaks in the paternal line that would likely (unless they shared a close common paternal ancestor at the breaks and no new SNP or STR mutations). You inherited the E-M78 SNP from your biological father which is very old and not from your maternal grandfather Sam Cornly. It’s possible Sam Cornly is/was positive for E-M78 too but unlikely he was anything close to your fathers E-M78 line “unless” they were close paternal cousins for example. Even if there was close paternal cousin relationship genetically and the E-M78 SNP is shared by both your father and maternal grandfather it would take your mother and father being brother and sister and then we’re talking a situation like ancient Egyptian Mummies for which that was common place (that I would understand). So in your tree Ahmed should have the Y line haplogroup as Ragnar Lothbrok though in the Saga’s he is supposedly the son of the King of Sweden. Where you have your Ragnar’s daughter..and not saying that is correct (A Rognvaldsatter)there is a break in the paternal Y chromosome and it’s very unlikely that the father of her son would carry such a close set Y haplo SNP’s. There are several breaks like this through out your tree. A father will pass his Y chromosome to his sons and not his daughters. There is some confusion as to the paternal ancestry of Rollo who became Duke of Normandy with some suggesting a paternal connection to Ragnar Lothbrok being possibly a Great Uncle or Great Grandfather but most think he was the son of the King of Sweden.

Eyvind I’ve seen several different Y chromosome and genealogy claims and would not consider any of them as definitive, but the four haplogroups I listed above are “very interesting” for different reasons. I personally have not found anything to suggest a connection to the STR pattern on the Origin Hunters webpage…which doesn’t mean there isn’t or they don’t match..I just haven’t seen enough evidence to put them in the running.

I think the problem with a number of families claiming to be descendants of Rollo, is that they descend from a female of that line, the best bet is to trace the family back as far as you can, use all sources available, and believe me there are many. It doesn’t take long before you often find that break in a line. I tend to use the early Yorkshire Charters collection for my own family, legitimates, and illegitimates are recorded there, though obviously there are still gaps. Even a quick google sometimes tells you the history of a line and from whence it stems.

The list was a little scattered, but its a direct line and Rollo was E-M78 and a recent descendant of North Africa. Meaning they were originally black! Please, see the article below, educate yourself and pay homage! The truth needs to come to light…#BlackLivesMatter

I totally agree with you Kim. Most genealogy becomes pretty thin prior to the 1500’s and paying a professional genealogist can lead to an expensive bill just to (prove or disprove) one or two people tie into a suspected line.

It does indeed George. I’ve found that DNA testing of multiple members of a family is the best way forward. I’ve been lucky in the fact that we have an unusual surname, and there aren’t too many of us. There were two branches in our family, one in Yorkshire, and one in Sussex ( though this branch originated in Yorkshire), and over hundreds of years it’s stayed pretty much the same. I’ve found through the tests that the Sussex branch ended with a female, and was able to support that with a paper trail. The Yorkshire branch is split, with one line broken around 1400, which was recorded ( Carlton in Craven line), and another which fortunately wasn’t ( my Dads and the Dealtrys), at least not as far back as 1234( based on yfull /ysearch findings), though it doesn’t mean to say our early de Hauterives/de Altaripas hadn’t come from a broken male line themselves. The DNA matches with other Dawtrys and Dealtrys in Yorkshire, plus the BigY and Yfull have been a real blessing for us.

If you post your corrected direct male line Rollo which shows it descending from the Norman Dukes I will be happy to take a look at it for you.

It’s really interesting when you find a nice genetic surname match isn’t it Kim. It becomes really fascinating where you test many different lines with proven genealogy and you can actually see the generation where an STR or SNP mutation happened hundreds of years ago.

Out of interest, there could be male descendants of Rollo, or Rolf still living, but they are likely to be in the Channel Islands or in France. the Duke Richard ll had two sons by a second wife named William and Mauger, both challenged the right to the duchy of Normandy, and failed, so went into exile, one to Guernsey and the other to a different region of France. William of Talou as he was then titled had a number of children by a common law wife, see this:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Talou

“I Am Rollo” you most definitely are not Rollo and there is about a snowballs chance in heck that Rollo or any descendant was E-M78, in scientific terms that is about a -0% for that one, good luck though, dreamers gonna dream.

If I remember that is the suspected ancestor for John Clifford (can correct me if mistaken). I’m aware of a certain historical line which I suspect of being I-M223 but I’ve never been able to connected it to other suspected descendant lines from Rollo…again that doesn’t mean it isn’t true or I’m correct..just that I haven’t been able to make the connection.

Hi George, most families claiming a descent from Rollo do so from a female of their family, hence such the wide variety of haplogroups emerging. I expect a few illegitimates will rear their heads though. I believe that particular haplogroup is quite widely spread, especially in eastern Europe, but it doesn’t rule it out, who knows what the origins of Rollo were:)

This could be true, as I know the results are due to be published soon. However, if the Dukes were L-21, to me this implies the line was broken. I have a project member who is an offshoot from L21, advanced testing pulled up matches in France and Yorkshire with families of Norman origin. We had to deduce from this that his ancestor came from either the Brittany or Normandy area, and as he is from a broken Dawtry line back to around 1400 when the male line died out, it sort of made sense. Not a Scandinavian origin for him at all, not even in any of his matches.

That group is Brittano-Irish as I said before RIb he is a descendant of the first seafaring people of Britain the Setanti . British history was rewritten during the Reformation and ascension of William of Orange by Archbishop Stubbs to put a Germanic slant on it . Arthur

Even if they are both positive for L21 it’s an SNP that’s almost 5,000 years old…so it really doesn’t tell much if that were in fact true. There are quite a few different haplogroups under L21 such as R-Z251, R-S1051 & R-L1335 (to name a few). Even then (if that is true) it’s probably going to surprise us. I’m still not 100% convinced of any claimant line or haplogroup yet.

I agree Kim. Can’t wait to find out what the final results are. Hopefully the haplogroup isn’t just identified by an old SNP like L21, M253 (or whatever it is). I hope the main ancient haplogroup is identified and more recent positions are listed as well with an explanation about the newer ones.

Devestating news from the Rollo project, I’m afraid:
The two skelletons found in the grave were much older than the vikings.
They had been stored in led-containers, so it was impossible to get DNA from them, only the age.

One of them was probably a francish aristocat from early 700. The other was most likely a keltic chieftain from about 300 years BC.
According to the scientists, the bodies was moved there around year 1200…

Yes, it is sad that we did not get genetic evidence this time, but most of the knowledge we have about the viking culture is just based on the sagas anyway.

The only “evidence” produced by the danish historians two hundred years ago, was Dudos writings saying that Rollo was the son of a king from Danishia.
This has later been interpreted as Denmark. But Danishia was actually used for all Scandinavia, not just Denmark.
Denmark did not exist as a state at that time.

Rolf Ragnvaldssons father Ragnvald Eysteinson was actually a wery powerfull local king over a large area in north west part of Norway; Møre and Romsdal.
He could easily be seen as a king from Danishia.

Dudo also claimed that Rollo came from a small island protected by high alphs.
This is definitly not Denmark, which of course is flat as a pancake.
But it fits Rolf Ragnvalsson quite well. He used to hide out in the Hebrides, west of Scotland after being expelled from Norway.

The project group is still working with partners from Normandie and hopes to open another grave there next year.
They also have plans to examine the DNA of Tancred de Huteville, from the norwegian area of Normandie, who is burried in Italy.

Hello Eyvind, I’m pretty certain he was Norwegian too, but it’s amazing how many people believe he was Danish, being a Dane meant something completely different back then. I’m pleased to hear that they are going to continue with their searches, though I thought they had already tested the DNA of the Hautvilles?

What interests me is that my Dad has a match in the Hebrides, and also in Hedmark, that’s apart from the ones in More, Iceland Sweden, Normandy and Germany. Historically in the Viking age, Hedmark was a petty kingdom ruled by Sigtryg Eysteinsson, who I believe would have been related somehow to Ganger-Hrólf , sometimes it feels like pieces of a jigsaw fitting together. I feel our families were linked somehow.

Sigtryd Eysteinson had the same inherrited name as Walking-Hrolfs father; Ragnvald Eysteinson. And according to the Orkney saga, cowritten by the last of the norse earls of Orkney, Ragnvalds father, Eystein Glumra, was supposedly earl of this area.

But we know that he actually lived in north Trøndelag, which is a different part of the country, so that was probably just a lye to boost up the family name, which incidently may at some point in history have led to the believe that Hrolfrs father and Sigtryd were brothers?

Also, Sigryd Eysteinson was killed by King Harald Hairfairs father – Halfdan The Black. Walking-Hrolfrs father was king Haralds most trusted advisor. So that does not add up…

I have no idea Eyvind, online they seem to connect all the Eysteinssons together as one family. I don’t think it would matter if they were close friends or family, if you were in the way, or upset someone, your days were numbered, you should read some of the stories relating to the life in Normandy, look up the families of Giroie and Bellame, both were connected to mine through marriage and land, it’s believed that we may have been be part of both families. Being related but it didn’t stop them from killing each other, poisoning was very popular:(

Hey Kim,
There are four different areas where we would suspect to find genetic traces of Rollos family:
1) North west parts of Norway – Møre.
2) The viking colony of Orkney, including Shetland, northern Scotland and the Hebrides
3) Normandy
4) Iceland

The rulers would grant land and title to their own family members. We should therefore look for genetic relationships between the nobility families of these areas.

As I understand, you have found matches for your fathers Y-DNA (Q-haplogroup) in all these regions.

According to Geni.com someone seems to know that Rollos halfbrother, Hrollaug Ragnvaldsson had established himself at a farm called Skardsbrekku at Eyjafjord in Iceland.
The Q in Iceland has been traced back to one particular farm, I do not know which. Is this perhaps the same farm? Does anyone know?

Hello Eyvind, in the Q-Nordic group we only have one man from Iceland, and he hasn’t given the details of where his ancestor Bjarni Magnússon lived in Iceland. However, at yfull, I believe the results showed that his family had only been in Iceland since around 1500 ( this came from his Norwegian matches) My Dad has a few matches on 12 markers from Iceland at ysearch, so I’ll look at those tomorrow. My family were landed in both Normandy and the UK, so we’ve always felt they must have been close to the dukes.

I cannot find any credible information on Hrolf Thurstain. Torstein is a common first name even today, but my guess is that it is used as a nickname here – “the stone of Tor”.
In the viking culture it was unusual to have two first names. The middle name was allways a nickname that you earned somehow.

I do not think he was the halfbrother of Rollo/Hrolf. It would be unusual and inpractical to have the same name for two siblings. But it would be usual to name someone after his uncle.

Perhaps geni.com sources and others are correct here: he was the son of Hrollaug, – Rollos halfbrother. Born in Mære (Nortrøndelag in Norway), moved to Iceland with his family, and sent to Normandy to join his uncle Rollo as a grown up…

Another coverup like Ramses and Tut ! William had ancient British ancestors like Alfred the Great whose ancestor Cerdic was a British pagan ( look it up) . William will be R1b like my ancestor Phillip D’Aubigny who is buried at the church of the Holy Sepulchre Jerusalem and is of British descent like half of the men who came with William ( Stuarts a prime eg. ) . Arthur

“According to another Reddit commenter, ”P’têt ben qu’oui, p’têt ben qu’non” (maybe yes, maybe no) is a common saying attributed to the indecisive Normans. Their inability to give a straight answer resulted in the term “a Norman’s Answer” to refer to non-commital responses.”

Mr. Boone, do you have sources? I must correct my previous post as I do agree that a Drogo/Drugo was a half brother of Rollo, not Hrolf Thurstain as I had previously posted. I believe that Drogo’s line gave rise to the Norman Earls of Chester who died at White Ship, Richard and Hugh d’Avranches.

Mr. Boone, thank you for your reply. I wish to share that there is an agnate of William the Conqueror (one of his sons actually) buried in Gloucester Abbey in England. He would make a great candidate for DNA extraction as his identity is well established. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Curthose I do not know if England would allow his exhumation. One other thing Mr. Boone, have you come across a man who I can only find mention of as “The Marquis of Carynton”? I have read that many records were lost in The French Revolution. Can anyone think of any reasons why someone would _not_ want to be connected to this Norman line, specifically the Carrington Smiths of Rivenhall? Does anyone have any vetted scholarly sources for this Carrington Smith line? Thanks.

Have you had a DNA test the last Brotish Royal Family were Britons R1b 390 at 24 the Stuart’s who were Britons from Brittany . William the Conq was probably probably too ( that’s why there is no result ) the Britons were seafarers long before the Romans got there and no doubt spread there genes to Scandinavia ! Arthur

Does anyone know if the results have been updated since this article? My dad’s family came from the Fitzalans and trace back to Odin who was Norse. My mother’s side are Stewarts and are of Scots Irish descent. My grandmother on my mom’s side was Indian, though I’m not certain which tribe.

Ruthie, FitzAlans and Stewarts are the same family: both are male-line descendants of the first FitzAlan to arrive after the Norman Conquest. Their ancestor was hereditary steward of the Archbishop of Dol in Bruttany.

DNA of the Vikings is never going to be just one type. The oldest legends of norways immigrants is that the first setters came from Alba. So Pictish bloodlines which were originally Scythian would have been present at the very beginning of the Viking era. Also Norwegian and Swedish and Danish families were intermarrying long before the Viking era. Throw in the DNA of the descendants of slaves. Viking DNA was very cosmopolitan at best.

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