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Or kept intentionally to extort the hush money that Clemens didn't pay. As Fearofpop points out, it seems that his "evidence" could be easily manufactured if there were really B12 shots (maybe for the same reason). While I'm inclined to think Clemens used at some point, I don't know how he could be convicted on the basis of that evidence. I know if I were on a jury, I'd have too many doubts about its validilty.

It seems that congress has better things to do and as a taxpayer I would rather my money go toward studying reproduction in gnats than this sordid mess. Time for the commissioner to quietly (not publicly) ask Clemens, Bonds and the rest to fade away in McGwire like fashion and for Baseball to move on. You would think the players would want that and the union would agree and would approve stronger policies to make congress go away.

Fix the present and put the past in the past.

"All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

February 7, 2008
McNamee’s Evidence Would Be Hard to Date
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT

The syringes, vials and gauze pads that Brian McNamee has turned over to federal investigators to back up his contention that he injected Roger Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone will be the subject of a strenuous attack if they enter the courtroom, according to medical and legal experts.

Scientific experts said there was no known method to date steroids or human growth hormone.

The syringes, vials and gauze pads are said to date from 2000 and 2001, part of a four-year period in which McNamee contends he gave Clemens drug injections. But even if the physical evidence tests positive for Clemens’s DNA and, say, steroids, Clemens’s lawyers could argue that McNamee added steroid traces to the original evidence in a bid to incriminate Clemens, experts say.

“You can test to figure out what the substance is, but you cannot figure out how old it is,” Dr. Don Catlin, the former director of the Olympic testing lab at U.C.L.A., said in a telephone interview.

There is no way to date blood either, Catlin said, which means there may not be a conclusive way to establish that the syringes, vials and pads were from 2000 and 2001.

Honestly as a Canadian and no I am not flag waving. This whole thing is quite pathetic. What is the point of it ? Reversed gambling bets, reversing who wins world series, we all know that will not happen. So in the big picture this is a whole posturing over events that will not change. Huge I mean Huge waste of time. Of course it may add fuel to the fire for Redsox fans versus the Yankee's and that in itself seems to be what MLB baseball revolves around, good god how pathetic is that ?

If B-12 and lidocaine were all that was in the needles, why would he have saved them?

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
~ Mark Twain

Or kept intentionally to extort the hush money that Clemens didn't pay.

we've no indication of extortion, including the taped recordings that Clemens' side set up-- Clemens made no attempt to get extortion language out of McNamee, which is telling. Also, Clemens' side seems genuinely shocked at this development.

besides, we're not trying to convict him for jail. We're curious as to whether there's good reason to believe that the best pitcher of our time got a little chemical aid. It's gone from he said/he said to possible physical evidence, which would mean that Clemens' performances are tarnished. It's a tragedy for the game, and Clemens would look like Rafael Palmeiro on, well, steroids.

we've no indication of extortion, including the taped recordings that Clemens' side set up-- Clemens made no attempt to get extortion language out of McNamee, which is telling. Also, Clemens' side seems genuinely shocked at this development.

besides, we're not trying to convict him for jail. We're curious as to whether there's good reason to believe that the best pitcher of our time got a little chemical aid. It's gone from he said/he said to possible physical evidence, which would mean that Clemens' performances are tarnished. It's a tragedy for the game, and Clemens would look like Rafael Palmeiro on, well, steroids.

Well, when you're engaged in an activity you know is illegal, you might keep physical evidence around to give you some leverage in case the person you are dealing with decides to turn you in. Say, for example, the Feds decided that they were going to target the trainers and persons who supplied athletes with the PEDs instead of the athletes. If Roger Clemens decides to "cooperate" with the Feds, telling them that McNamee was trying to push PEDs on him but he refused, McNamee has physical evidence that would discredit Clemens as a witness. People save all kinds of weird stuff. I mean, who would have thought Monica Lewinsky would keep a stained dress around and wouldn't wash it?

McNamee was a trainer for a major league ballclub. I suspect that if you took a good look into the background of current and former trainers and clubbies in major league clubhouses, you'd find that many of them do a lot of questionable things for the players they work for. Many of them earn a good percentage of their living off of what they can do for the players and I'm sure some of them have been willing to get involved with PEDs because some player wanted them, even though its illegal without a prescription. I suspect these guys don't feel like they're "dealers," but they don't want some player painting them that way if the player gets caught.

Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

I do understand that and all, but again, I'm not sure how you prove that. I would think Clemens could argue that yes, his DNA was on the syringes. However, McNamee could've taken one of the old syringes that he (supposedly) injected Clemens with B12 or Lidocane, filled it up with PED's and then pushed it into thin air. It may sound like a crazy theory, but I don't think it's that crazy.

I guess I'm just not sure how it's clear cut and how it proves anything.

Lab tests can prove or disprove all of those sort of "tricks."

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)

"Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"

This sounds to me as if none of this material would hold up as real evidence in a court of law, once the experts explain why, as above.

I would think this evidence is only as good as the weakest link in the chain of custody. The weak link would likely be McNamee himself. If he is lying abour Clemens repeated usage, then he could have fabricated this evidence. Presumably he had sole possession of this evidence for the last seven or eight years....

That being said, I still beleive McNamee, and I think this "evidence" helps his side.

What if the 'evidence' wasn't a syringe, but Clemens fingerprints on the vial of some type of PED? What if he had an audio tape of Clemens talking about PED usage? We will see....

I would think this evidence is only as good as the weakest link in the chain of custody. The weak link would likely be McNamee himself. If he is lying abour Clemens repeated usage, then he could have fabricated this evidence. Presumably he had sole possession of this evidence for the last seven or eight years....

That being said, I still beleive McNamee, and I think this "evidence" helps his side.

What if the 'evidence' wasn't a syringe, but Clemens fingerprints on the vial of some type of PED? What if he had an audio tape of Clemens talking about PED usage? We will see....

I agree with all you say, and I also believe McNamee. I don't think he has any reason to lie at this point.

He got snagged when Radomski called him out to Mitchell; and Andy Pettite corroborated his part of McNamee's story. Wonder what he told the feds the other day about what he knew concerning Clemens, or if they even asked him?

Very weird of McNamee to save the "evidence." Maybe he always knew this time just might come?

If McNamee did save syringes filled with traces of both Winstrol and the Rocket's DNA, then he clearly did it because deep down he knew what he was doing was wrong and his conscience forced him to keep them in case he ever mustered the courage to do the right thing.

Kudos for the courage of McNamee to stand up for justice and all at a time when he has nothing to gain by his actions. Kudos. You're a real warrior poet.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Couldn't Clemens use the defense that he admitted to being injected with B12 and Lidocane? And that the syringes contained DNA from that?

I guess I'm just not sure how this necessarily proves anything.

Absolutely. Not to mention there is no "chan of evidence" for the syringes or gauze pads. Not admissable in a court of law so it should not be considered by congress.

Last edited by Team Clark; 02-07-2008 at 11:13 AM.

It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...

If B-12 and lidocaine were all that was in the needles, why would he have saved them?

Excellent point. I suspect we are only hearing about One Trillionth of the "real" story.

It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...

Absolutely. Not to mention there is no "cahin of evidence" for the syringes or gauze pads. Not admissable in a court of law so it should not be considered by congress.

If the history of congress/steroids has shown us anything, it's that due process and innocent until proven guilty are not standards that congress holds itself too. This whole debacle is absolutely ridiculous in my mind. Where is Shawn Merriman? Where is Rodney Harrison?

This is senators puffing up their chests and making themselves look important to boost their chances of reelection. It makes me sick.

Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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