Logs of the focus group discussion for #capitals

[00:41] <tinkerhell> capqu...no dreads in my alliance would even dream of fitting local reps. Ever.

[00:41] <capqu> ur shit

[00:42] <tinkerhell> Lordservant..why wouldn't you go max dps fit when you can basically refit in seconds. We still do.

[00:42] <capqu> reps clearly have their applications on dreads

[00:42] <capqu> if u never consider it ur just dumb tbh

[00:43] <tinkerhell> A rep is a mod we can't refit and barely ever has a chance to even cycle when dps is applied. If you are dying to subclass, you didn't bring enough webs.

[00:43] <capqu> lol

[00:44] <tinkerhell> Subcaps *

[00:47] <tinkerhell> Plus the fact neuts are literally everywhere, it's not exactly difficult to neut out a dread when it Cynos in even with a small subcap fleet

[00:49] <capqu> maybe in lowsec

[00:49] <capqu> but still to not even consider fitting them is just stupid

[00:49] <tinkerhell> Which is why if were dropping only a few dreads to subcap blah we would use a phoenix or nag as half the time a moros doesn't even have the cap to fire it's guns. And if it's a large scale fight, the rep won't cycle in time.

[10:57] <rocket_x> are we to assume that fighters arent effected by drone skills

[10:57] <rocket_x> i.e. drone interfacing

[10:57] <max_kolonko> I was hoping for carriers to be able to dish out more than one ewar squadron. If you increase support limit on carriers to 2 you can potentially have more impactn battlefield without pure dps

[10:57] <ccp_larrikin> These stats would be after all skills are taken into account

[10:57] <rocket_x> kk

[10:57] <ccp_larrikin> they are mostly the T2 stats too

[10:58] <max_kolonko> Especially in wh where you are limited in number of carriers

[10:58] <ccp_larrikin> @max_kolonko: make the argument for it and we might change it :simple_smile:

[10:58] <5pitf1re> will there be damage/application mods affecting squadrons?

[10:58] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: Drone Damage Amps will effect, not sure if these stats should be before/after that

[10:59] <ccp_larrikin> make the case :simple_smile:

[10:59] <ccp_larrikin> Not sure about nav/omni's, they could

[10:59] <ccp_larrikin> and I think it makes for interesting fitting choices

[11:00] <rocket_x> 5 squadrons of fighter bombers = 5k dps

[11:00] <ccp_larrikin> and...500k Alpha

[11:00] <rocket_x> plus the ability to do 100k damage w/ the torp thingies

[11:00] <rocket_x> every minute

[11:00] <rocket_x> so in a 3 minute period...

[11:01] <ccp_larrikin> effective DPS would be around 13k, if you think it needs to be more make an argument (I suspect the base damage needs to come up and maybe less alpha)

[11:01] <rocket_x> i need to do some head scratching

[11:02] <rocket_x> need to be careful about the reload time on them when they're scooped though

[11:41] <tinkerhell> I'm just saying those alpha numbers look mental..doesn't take many to reach the same alpha has a dd now which has a 10 min cooldown and we have more ehp now.

[11:41] <rocket_x> fax will still be able to tank 300k alpha lol

[11:41] <5pitf1re> you can fit the mod, deaggress through reload and refit for another not burnt out one

[11:41] <rocket_x> if there's multiple supers, then it'd be a problem

[11:41] <5pitf1re> ofc

[11:42] <rocket_x> but if there's multiple supers now

[11:42] <rocket_x> for example a revenant will volley @ ~320k

[11:42] <5pitf1re> xttz: the more range they have to cover the more time you'll have to react though

[11:42] <5pitf1re> me thinks

[11:43] <tinkerhell> What ehp will a local tanked fax have?

[11:47] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: do rocket salvos and torp salvos have an application delay through travel time like regular missiles?

[11:47] <tinkerhell> And that's a 5 dcu officer revenant rocket :p

[11:47] <tinkerhell> Not exactly the norm :p

[11:52] <5pitf1re> Do we have a rough idea of fighter and fibo HP values yet?

[11:59] <max_kolonko> @ccp_larrikin: two questions : 1.) you said stats are for all lvl 5 but does that include bonuses from hull (if a carrier will give bonus to specific fighter damage for example) or from fitted damage modules (if there will be any affecting fighters)? 2.) squadrons size will be the sama whetever they are used by carrier or super?

[12:07] <5pitf1re> but will a nyx apply any damage to a HIC with fibos?

[12:08] <steveronuken> I was shooting a fax in triage, so I'm not sure what raw damage I was putting out. One volley knocked out the shields completely, but the armour was more resiliant

[12:08] <rocket_x> which fax were you shooting

[12:08] <max_kolonko> Looking at light fighters and difference between guns and missile salvo. Thirst question is: are thise abilities able to be used at the same time? So should i treat missile salvo as extra dps (with 10 charges)?

[12:24] <ccp_larrikin> 5pitf1re [11:47 AM] @ccp_larrikin: do rocket salvos and torp salvos have an application delay through travel time like regular missiles?

[12:26] <ccp_larrikin> max_kolonko [11:59 AM] 1.) you said stats are for all lvl 5 but does that include bonuses from hull (if a carrier will give bonus to specific fighter damage for example) or from fitted damage modules (if there will be any affecting fighters)?

[12:26] <ccp_larrikin> max_kolonko [11:59 AM] 2.) squadrons size will be the sama whetever they are used by carrier or super?

[12:27] <ccp_larrikin> 5pitf1re [12:07 PM] but will a nyx apply any damage to a HIC with fibos?

[12:27] <5pitf1re> will it do 100% of those 10% though?

[12:28] <5pitf1re> or is there a missile application formula in between?

[12:28] <ccp_larrikin> max_kolonko [12:08 PM] Looking at light fighters and difference between guns and missile salvo. Thirst question is: are thise abilities able to be used at the same time? So should i treat missile salvo as extra dps (with 10 charges)?

[12:28] <ccp_larrikin> 5pitf1re [12:13 PM] may I suggest that the mouse over popup thing shows the effective DPS/ewar effectiveness? that is, if fighters die, the popup accounts for that @ccp_larrikin(edited)

[12:28] <ccp_larrikin> rocket_x [12:16 PM] they have a plan for shadows too

[12:29] <rocket_x> lol tease :stuck_out_tongue:

[12:29] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: I'm not sure waht you mean, can you expand?

[12:30] <rocket_x> he means, is it also penalized by sig radius

[12:30] <rocket_x> but all weapons have missile application for these things... so i'd guess yes?

[12:30] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: there is missile damage application, AND 10% of shooting non fighters/capitals/whatever we decide, dependant on the ability.

[12:30] <ccp_larrikin> oh right yes

[12:30] <ccp_larrikin> can be more/less than 10% too

[12:30] <steveronuken> Missile application is because managing traversal, on fighters = very very difficult.

[12:53] <titus.tallang> - torp salvo should probably have travel time if you want the anti-dd thing to work well against it (as well as a pretty obvious unique flashy animation & sound)

[12:53] <titus.tallang> - drone control units for fighter ability cooldown reduction or something? something that increases effectiveness while not necessarily being flat out +damage because dda does that fine

[12:55] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: an alternative is a super short range (5km, its currently 10).

[12:55] <ccp_larrikin> I like the idea of reducing cooldown

[12:55] <xttz> what are the cooldown timers currently?

[12:56] <titus.tallang> super short range still doesn't allow reaction time

[12:57] <titus.tallang> you can just throw your fibos on a target permanently at short range

[12:57] <titus.tallang> and they won't be able to anti-dd the alpha salvo

[12:59] <titus.tallang> i am assuming dromi web effect is for a single squadron

[12:59] <titus.tallang> not per fighter

[12:59] <titus.tallang> correct?

[12:59] <xttz> the 60% is for the full squadron of 3, but as it loses fighters it drops to 40% or 20%

[12:59] <titus.tallang> i see

[13:00] <titus.tallang> good way of working around the stacking nightmare of current drones, i like it

[13:00] <titus.tallang> also, ugh ecm fighters

[13:00] <xttz> I'm assuming the same is true for the 3 disruptor points

[13:01] <titus.tallang> do you ewar fighters as a squadron or each fighter separately

[13:01] <titus.tallang> (i am assuming that a squadron is one actual entity for the server because load reasons, so you'd ewar the entire thing, just making sure)

[13:01] <ccp_larrikin> xttz [1:00 PM] I'm assuming the same is true for the 3 disruptor points

[13:02] <ccp_larrikin> titus.tallang [1:01 PM] do you ewar fighters as a squadron or each fighter separately

[13:03] <titus.tallang> i mean the other way around

[13:03] <titus.tallang> if someone scrams my squadron

[13:03] <titus.tallang> they scram the entire squadron at once?

[13:03] <ccp_larrikin> yes

[13:03] <titus.tallang> hm in that case

[13:03] <titus.tallang> can we make scrams remove one of the effects of evasive mans

[13:03] <titus.tallang> probably speed

[13:03] <ccp_larrikin> Why?

[13:04] <titus.tallang> because otherwise what's the point of the tackle ability on your anti-fighter fighters

[13:04] <titus.tallang> unless i'm missing something

[13:04] <titus.tallang> do all fighters have an automatic mwd like current drones do?

[13:05] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: its an ability. No ability is automatic

[13:05] <titus.tallang> alright

[13:05] <titus.tallang> so yeah, tackle does nothing against the anti-fighter fighters

[13:05] <titus.tallang> they don't have a mwd

[13:05] <ccp_larrikin> it webs them

[13:05] <titus.tallang> tackle has a web?

[13:05] <titus.tallang> i mean, the actual "tackle" ability

[13:05] <ccp_larrikin> yeah, didn't I list that?

[13:05] <titus.tallang> it only says scram

[13:06] <titus.tallang> oh there's a speed bonus

[13:06] <titus.tallang> nvm i'm blind

[13:06] <ccp_larrikin> :simple_smile:

[13:06] <ccp_larrikin> a super powerful web too

[13:06] <titus.tallang> yup, saw it now

[13:07] <titus.tallang> do abilities cycle automatically if you don't tell them to stop and they don't have a cd

[13:07] <titus.tallang> so, i can tell my fighters to tackle something and they will keep tackling until i turn it off

[13:07] <titus.tallang> like mods

[13:08] <titus.tallang> or all the ewar things

[13:10] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: everything auto-cycles unless it has charges or a cooldown, in which case it needs to be manualy cycled.

[13:20] <titus.tallang> "fighter subroutine processor" - "reserves some of the carrier's vast computational capabilities for its fighter squadrons, allowing them to re-arm their weaponry more efficiently and use their special abilities more frequently"

[13:22] <ccp_larrikin> I thought fighter hangers could be cool, giving you more fighter hanger space to carry more reserves. But playing with volume is tricky...

[13:24] <5pitf1re> however, make sure you can't fit all of them, maybe

[13:24] <5pitf1re> so that you have to pick wisely for your task

[13:32] <titus.tallang> ccp_larrikin: remember they can be unfit

[13:32] <tinkerhell> Do we know the ehp of the various fighters yet?

[13:32] <titus.tallang> i think the idea is for us to make up numbers

[13:34] <jezza_mcwaffle> Over 9000

[13:35] <titus.tallang> i'll make a sheet later

[13:35] <titus.tallang> where we can put numbers and see how they match up against various incoming types of dps

[13:35] <titus.tallang> also @ccp_larrikin i posted a quick summary of mechanics stuff that came up on the reddit thread

[13:35] <titus.tallang> could you cross-check please to make sure i didn't get anything wrong

[13:35] <titus.tallang> ty

[13:35] <titus.tallang> food now afk

[13:51] <xttz> ccp_larrikin [1:22 PM] I thought fighter hangers could be cool, giving you more fighter hanger space to carry more reserves. But playing with volume is tricky...

[13:51] <xttz> DCUs could hold inidividual fighters like ammo with a long reload time... however any fighters inside could be replenished into squadrons almost immediately rather than waiting on re-arm timers

[14:14] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: updated one of the replies

[14:16] <titus.tallang> neuts adding cooldown or something

[14:16] <ccp_larrikin> another idea :simple_smile:

[14:16] <5pitf1re> will CDs MJD fighter squadrons as well?

[14:17] <ccp_larrikin> Yes

[14:17] <ccp_larrikin> Not sure about the HOG though...teleporting fighters off grid with no way of warping back would be wierd/op

[14:18] <5pitf1re> I get some feedback from people thinking current fighter speed numbers are too low.

[14:19] <ccp_larrikin> Remember MWDs etc.

[14:19] <5pitf1re> yea but you'll overshoot your target, so actually positioning them ahead and intercepting sounds more like the way to go somehow

[14:20] <5pitf1re> because chasing a target will be rather difficult

[14:20] <ccp_larrikin> Can you expand on overshooting? I'm not exactly sure what you mean

[14:20] <titus.tallang> ccp_larrikin: are we still running with the vision of carriers that can project anywhere on their grid?

[14:21] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: they can yes. But projecting further away from your carrier means longer to reload/replenish/etc.

[14:21] <ccp_larrikin> there's advantages with coming in close

[14:21] <titus.tallang> yes, but think about how long a squadron takes to get to a target even if it's only 200km away

[16:00] <lordsservant> we've already confirmed that the drone mods will affect them

[16:00] <lordsservant> so potentially 10km/sec orthrus

[16:00] <lordsservant> and if numbers are anything to go from, a very large well of them to pull from

[16:01] <capqu> no 10km/s

[16:01] <capqu> base is 1k2

[16:01] <capqu> with a 2k4 every 60 sec for 10 sec

[16:01] <capqu> thats not going to go higher than 5k no matter what you do

[16:01] <capqu> add in the 20km range

[16:01] <capqu> the assuming less ehp than an orthrus

[16:01] <capqu> why exactly do they need a .1 multiplier

[16:02] <lordsservant> I need to look at the numbers personally, just woke up and drinking coffee now, but again due to the sandboxy nature, saying "no matter what you do" has been said before and proven wrong

[16:02] <lordsservant> it might be right here, but we need to be careful

[16:02] <lordsservant> we also don't want supercarriers to be strong against everything

[16:02] <capqu> why

[16:02] <capqu> theyre called super carriers

[16:02] <lordsservant> because then we end up with supercarriers doing everything

[16:02] <tinkerhell> I think they just dont want a carrier rippig frigates apart. Which they would

[16:02] <lordsservant> I dont know if you were playing back around '10 pre fibo nerf

[16:03] <capqu> spoilers carriers already rip frigates apart

[16:03] <lordsservant> but supercarriers were better than any ship at the game with everthing

[16:18] <ccp_larrikin> @capqu: no, but the anti-fighter fighters are probably the most effective thing out there at killing them. Some light missile based destroyer or autocannons might be on the same level. The anti-fighter fighters also have the tackle ability which is a scram/web only on fighters.

[16:18] <ccp_larrikin> so they can hold them down then murder them

[16:18] <capqu> yea i get it, the small fighers are like a flock of kestrels with 20km range

[16:19] <capqu> and no tank mods fit

[16:19] <ccp_larrikin> They have evasive manouvers

[16:19] <capqu> every 60 sec for 10 sec right

[16:19] <ccp_larrikin> Yup

[16:19] <ccp_larrikin> so use it to escape a situation

[16:19] <ccp_larrikin> or to make it though SB's

[16:19] <ccp_larrikin> or wahtever

[16:20] <capqu> yea, so do you think that supers being able to deploy 3 squads of 20km range kestrels would be a problem, even without the .1 multi?

[16:20] <lordsservant> or to scramble to intercept a fighter squadron :simple_smile:

[16:20] <ccp_larrikin> all these stats are up for debate (cooldowns/duration/etc.) If you have ideas make an argument and post it (try not to do it here)

[16:20] <capqu> considering things like the orthrus exist and will pop one kestrel every second

[16:20] <capqu> why not here

[16:20] <ccp_larrikin> @capqu: scale. That works with one super, or 3. Does it work with 100?

[16:21] <ccp_larrikin> also the fighter squadrons, in many ways, have considerbly higher survivability than kestrels.

[16:26] <capqu> it is as weak as a frigate in terms of being killed by anything but aoe weapons

[16:26] <capqu> why too should it not enjoy the application of a frigate

[16:26] <capqu> it has frigate dps after all

[16:28] <lordsservant> because this has been done before, and a lot of us know what the game was like when that was a thing, and that's something we know is not good for the game

[16:28] <ccp_larrikin> @capqu: 500 is considerbly higher than most frigates.

[16:28] <lordsservant> so it shouldn't come back

[16:28] <capqu> 500/12 you mean ccp_larrikin

[16:28] <capqu> which is considerably lower than what most frigates can do at 20km

[16:28] <ccp_larrikin> each fighter is not a frigate

[16:28] <capqu> each fighter is 2k ehp 40 sig 1k2ms

[16:28] <capqu> how is that not a frigate

[16:29] <ccp_larrikin> @capqu: write it up. I'm not going to live debate it here with you. Come up with an argument, provide examples, post it and it will be considered

[16:30] <capqu> i find live debates are where you actually get answers tbh

[16:30] <capqu> i know whatever i write wont have any impact, and i thought this channel was for live debate

[16:30] <rocket_x> oh @capqu :3

[16:31] <rocket_x> go write it up and put it up on reddit

[16:32] <capqu> man i suck at writing

[16:32] <capqu> but i'll try

[16:32] <rocket_x> yeah that's the problem, in here it just looks like you're sperging :smile: larrikin is just too nice to say it haha

[16:32] <capqu> no thats a dumb cop out

[16:32] <capqu> saying ur sperging is what retards do when they have no actual thing to say

[16:33] <tinkerhell> No, you are sperging

[16:33] <capqu> see what i mean

[16:33] <rocket_x> its not about what you're saying

[16:33] <rocket_x> its because like

[16:33] <rocket_x> theres three words

[16:33] <rocket_x> on every line

[16:33] <rocket_x> and its painful

[16:33] <rocket_x> to read and

[16:33] <rocket_x> stuff

[16:33] <rocket_x> :smile:

[16:33] <capqu> i see

[16:34] <lordsservant> Im gonna vote for the "capqu is sperging" side here

[16:34] <lordsservant> :wink:

[16:34] <rocket_x> capqu is good people

[16:34] <rocket_x> paragraphs, are also good people

[16:34] <rocket_x> :simple_smile:

[16:34] <lordsservant> so you're saying capqu is half of a good people?

[16:34] <rocket_x> but capqu is a strong independent irishman who don't need no paragraphs

[16:35] <lordsservant> irishman you say? why don't we all meet up for drunken focus group meetings on external comms sometime and all get shitfaced together. we could probably get a lot of stuff accomplished :wink:

[16:35] <capqu> there is a dublin meet in 5 days

[16:35] <capqu> im going

[16:35] <capqu> cu there

[16:35] <lordsservant> 'murica :disappointed:

[16:35] <lordsservant> too far away from dublin

[16:35] <rocket_x> there's one in london too, we should exchange selfies via focus group slack

[16:37] <ccp_larrikin> Its also just quicker (a post that is), which is good because then I can make more shiny new toys for you guys :simple_smile: Saves me answering the same question 6 times

[16:38] <rocket_x> i made a r/EVE post with a link to the forum

[16:39] <rocket_x> most of it is questions i we already know answers to

[16:39] <rocket_x> if there's a reasonable amount i'll throw them on the focus group slack for you or something

[16:40] <ccp_larrikin> Thanks mate, I apprecate it

[16:40] <rocket_x> :heart:

[17:58] <5pitf1re> I'm a bit worried about carrier use in small gangs combined with combat probing mechanics.

[17:59] <5pitf1re> It's all fine that my carrier can be a long range platform but if it's possible to warp on top of me that easily and my fighter squadrons are far away supporting my fleet then this can be an issue.

[17:59] <5pitf1re> Now of course you can argument that my fleet can just warp to me to help me, but can they though?

[18:16] <titus.tallang> 5pitf1re: that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to having carriers as a long range support platform though?

[18:16] <titus.tallang> keep in mind you have warp capability, you aren't stationary

[18:22] <5pitf1re> Mhmm, what happens during a mini-warp?

[18:23] <5pitf1re> I mean, let's say my squadrons are out fighting and I have to warp to another position on grid?

[18:23] <titus.tallang> way back when the subject last came up, iirc @ccp_larrikin said fighters are unaffected by on-grid warps, you just can't control them while you're in warp, but they keep doing what they were doing

[18:23] <5pitf1re> Will they lose connection just like drones?

[18:23] <titus.tallang> has that changed?

[18:23] <5pitf1re> ah

[18:23] <titus.tallang> no idea vOv

[18:53] <darren_fox> The only fighters that will apply reasonably well to subcaps are the General light fighter squadrons, right?

[19:09] <titus.tallang> that seems to be the plan

[19:09] <titus.tallang> at least with current numbers

[19:12] <darren_fox> I wonder if that will be enough for people to consider using carriers. I mean, it's a 1B+ slow ship

[19:14] <darren_fox> You won't be dropping carriers as a response to supers. Maybe as a response to sieged dreads, but their dps is fairly limited, even against caps

[19:14] <5pitf1re> oh, I can't wait to use carriers with those mechanics :simple_smile:

[19:14] <5pitf1re> depends

[19:14] <5pitf1re> you can be an anti-fighter carrier

[19:15] <darren_fox> True, but assume that a super-fleet with 3 heavys + 2 anti-fighters will also be supported by carriers going pure anti-fighters

[19:16] <5pitf1re> fights will be very interesting

[19:16] <darren_fox> So they end up as support rather than the first go-to cap

[19:16] <5pitf1re> since the timing will be a critical

[19:16] <5pitf1re> that is when you bring what on grid

[19:18] <5pitf1re> assume a super blob with carrier blob support, if there are no caps on grid yet, or no carriers at least, then those super blob supporting carriers may have fighters out to support vs. subcaps

[19:19] <darren_fox> Today escalation from subcaps -> caps/supers take place because fighters and fibos apply to BCs/BS fairly well. I just wonder if that escalation will take place in the same way post-patch

[19:19] <5pitf1re> I think the escalation paths won't be quite as rigid anymore

[19:26] <scott_ormands> also this will make it harder to defang supers

[19:26] <scott_ormands> cant just kill 20 fighters and be done with it

[19:27] <scott_ormands> now tyhey can have a lot more time where thay can be useful

[19:27] <sebastien_st.frusquin> really ?

[19:27] <sebastien_st.frusquin> it's still absolute hell to get them anywhere useful

[19:27] <scott_ormands> from the sounds of it you can have sure but if they are right on top of you tackling you

[19:28] <sebastien_st.frusquin> if subcaps get tackled by supers they deserve to get wiped out

[19:34] <sebastien_st.frusquin> and I meant it more in the context of jump ranges and jump fatigue

[19:36] <tinkerhell> I thought we were promised an additional change from the max fatigue reduction