I welcome this (and would welcome similar consolidation of the rocket threads). I'm jumping in to try to establish that any sort of electrified car should qualify for discussion here, PHEV as well as BEV, and even FCEV. Please carry on with driver interface issues. For the record, I prefer knobs and dials to touch screens, and would dislike voice control except, when it gets better than the current Siri, phone dialing or message writing and reading. In the car, Siri gets roundly cussed by me fairly frequently.

I might note that discussions of EVs will diverge on occasion into discussions of batteries and power sources and the grid. There's no need to terminate runaway divergences; they'll end.

To start out our new Conversation Street, I'll reiterate a point I've made that's been somewhat out of topic in various other threads:

I believe the most useful electrification path, for the next decade or two, is along the lines of the Volt. A moderate electrical range (50-80 miles would be perfect), a battery treated gently (the Volt does a great job of short stroking and thermally mananging the battery), and a gas engine for extended range operation. And a competent gas tank size (10 gallons, though perhaps an early shutoff feature for filling if people don't use it much).

There are several advantages to this:- You go further (literally) on a given battery capacity. Handing the first 50 miles a day of 4 people is more useful than handling 200 miles for one person when that pack normally does only 50 miles a day.- This solution works as a regular car for people who can't charge regularly (apartments, people with street parking, etc). Yes, I know, per the Soap Box the self driving Ubers will solve all this, and I'm happy to bet against that for quite a while.- We have the national infrastructure for unlimited long range travel, which is common enough that most people care about it in their car fleet.- This solution works better in cold winter conditions, because a gas engine is a great heater.

There's certainly a market for pure electric, but I think that the plug in hybrid style vehicles are a better general solution for more people in the near term. And they need to have a useful gas tank, not the stupid i3 "If the range extender can drive it longer than the battery, it's not a range extended electric vehicle" thing due to CA laws.

I think it would be useful to start this thread (at the relative start of 2018) with an inventory of which manufacturers are (and are not!) either currently selling or bringing to market fully electric vehicles; no manufacturer of note is staying 100% ICE, and I don't think there's much point trying to catalog the hybrids. Could someone who's a bit more up on the current market than I am provide a quick survey?

Why did the model 3 thread get locked? There is a ton of very valuable Model 3 specific discussions still going on.

They can fit in here easily enough.

The main issue with trying to keep stuff scoped in the threads is that, as shread notes, there are a lot of things that all interface together. Tesla's products are certainly not standalone (their inability to get self driving working in the Model S will almost certainly extend to the Model 3), and the "Hey, put it all on touchscreen!" thing isn't unique to the Model 3 either, though it's farthest along that route (clearly designed for people not actually driving it, or the interface design makes little sense).

Syonyk inadvertently brings up a good point (and more on purpose): the sociopolitical implications of electrification and transit belong in the Soap Box, not here. There's a general transportation policy thread already underway: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1295963

But we would of course welcome specific threads.

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Also, use Leafs are seriously tempting.

I test-drove one, and one word sprang to mind: "uncomfortable". I would rather go full-ebike after driving a Leaf.

I believe the most useful electrification path, for the next decade or two, is along the lines of the Volt. A moderate electrical range (50-80 miles would be perfect), a battery treated gently (the Volt does a great job of short stroking and thermally mananging the battery), and a gas engine for extended range operation. And a competent gas tank size (10 gallons, though perhaps an early shutoff feature for filling if people don't use it much).

Without disagreeing with you, what effects does having a rarely-used gasoline engine create? I know the Volt is capable of automatically burning off gas before it goes stale, but apparently that isn't a concern over time periods shorter than a year, so stale gas shouldn't be an issue beyond using potentially a few gallons of gas per year more than would be expected with near 100% battery powered miles driven. General maintenance like oil changes should probably be similar to a normal ICE vehicle since you're becoming time limited instead of usage limited with modern ICE oil aging (oil change intervals for normal driving are approaching or exceeding average yearly mileage for commuting). Are there any other maintenance concerns or failure modes for a potentially rarely used engine?

Without disagreeing with you, what effects does having a rarely-used gasoline engine create? I know the Volt is capable of automatically burning off gas before it goes stale, but apparently that isn't a concern over time periods shorter than a year, so stale gas shouldn't be an issue beyond using potentially a few gallons of gas per year more than would be expected with near 100% battery powered miles driven.

automotive fuel systems are sealed, so gas will take a long, long time to "go bad." gas goes bad in things like lawn equipment and unclosed containers because the more volatile fractions evaporate away quickly, and eventually you're left with the heavier components which can dry and leave a varnish film on stuff.

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General maintenance like oil changes should probably be similar to a normal ICE vehicle since you're becoming time limited instead of usage limited with modern ICE oil aging (oil change intervals for normal driving are approaching or exceeding average yearly mileage for commuting). Are there any other maintenance concerns or failure modes for a potentially rarely used engine?

no, not really. just so long as when the engine does get used, it gets used long enough to reach normal operating temperature. the oil life minder will keep track of starts and overall run time to ensure the oil is changed before the alkaline additives are depleted and contamination starts to build.

I test-drove one, and one word sprang to mind: "uncomfortable". I would rather go full-ebike after driving a Leaf.

You have to give me a bunch of context here, because that is... like the total opposite of what we experienced with our Leaf test-drives and buy (note: 2011 Leaf). It's the most comfortable, ridiculously luxurious car ever. Especially for the second hand prices around here. It's bordering on criminal. I know some people are discerning on certain issues, so I don't want to say you're wrong, so I'm curious: in what way is it uncomfortable?

Also, yes, e-bikes for life, although that's pretty much a given around here. Nobody doesn't have or ride a bike here. Lots of people don't have cars or rarely use it.

It will be very interesting to see what the VW Group comes up with by their self-imposed 2020 timeline. As I've said in the Tesla threads, if they can come up with a 50-100 mile usable EV range vehicle plus a REX I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

The 50-100 mile range would cover like 90% of my driving, and the REX could let me drive long distances. They've already got the eTron in Europe and they let you pick what mode you want the REX in, IIRC you can set it to "Auto, Prefer REX, prefer EV, and "Battery Charge""

Regarding range extenders, I'm not so sure. From my point of view I already have a great range extender: my other car. I don't need another. As long as EVs are expensive, they're going to primarily appeal to people who live in multiple car households. That won't be true eventually, but short term, I think it will be given the economics.

Syonyk inadvertently brings up a good point (and more on purpose): the sociopolitical implications of electrification and transit belong in the Soap Box, not here. There's a general transportation policy thread already underway: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1295963

But we would of course welcome specific threads.

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Also, use Leafs are seriously tempting.

I test-drove one, and one word sprang to mind: "uncomfortable". I would rather go full-ebike after driving a Leaf.

The new one or the old one?

By the way, if people have things they'd like us to look at in front page coverage wrt EVs, this thread is a good place to do that.

Regarding range extenders, I'm not so sure. From my point of view I already have a great range extender: my other car. I don't need another. As long as EVs are expensive, they're going to primarily appeal to people who live in multiple car households. That won't be true eventually, but short term, I think it will be given the economics.

Problem is that current cars with range extenders aren't that attractive.

Volt may have the right idea but it's an ugly Chevy. i3 is an ugly BMW, though some people like it. But the bigger problem is that the electric range isn't that great and I don't recall but initially, their range extender didn't add enough range either to say drive 50 miles, hang around a bit and then return home.

For people who want only one car (because they may gravitate to EV in the first place out of environmental concerns and having more than one car may go against those concerns), range extender seems a good compromise.

You can't always plan your trips either. What if you drove to a place that was about half of your electric range, thinking you will have enough to return, but you run into heavy traffic and you're sitting in traffic for hours? That may drain the battery sooner than you anticipated.

Or you end up staying a lot longer at the destination and your car has to sit parked in some extremes of hot or cold temperature. Will you have enough charge to return home?

You have to give me a bunch of context here, because that is... like the total opposite of what we experienced with our Leaf test-drives and buy (note: 2011 Leaf). It's the most comfortable, ridiculously luxurious car ever. Especially for the second hand prices around here. It's bordering on criminal. I know some people are discerning on certain issues, so I don't want to say you're wrong, so I'm curious: in what way is it uncomfortable?

I'm coming from a 2003 Civic Si. Modified, so it's not the most comfortable ride. But the seats are damn nice. The Leaf's seats, less so. By a lot. Also, the ride felt a lot like my Civic's, but without the sporty fun of my Si. It just didn't feel like I was getting anything more by changing cars. Also, the regenerative braking felt-off. I greatly preferred the Model S's (which, granted is a more expensive car by an order of magnitude). Also, the Leaf felt cramped, especailly in the back. And I'm coming from a hatch already, so it's not like their shape and style are new to me.

Also, I drove the BMW i3 right after, just because, and promptly went from a "It's a fugly car" hater to "It's still a fugly car, but I could totally see myself in it" person. Everything about the i3's ride and interior was...right. In a way the Leaf just missed, to me.

Without disagreeing with you, what effects does having a rarely-used gasoline engine create? I know the Volt is capable of automatically burning off gas before it goes stale, but apparently that isn't a concern over time periods shorter than a year, so stale gas shouldn't be an issue beyond using potentially a few gallons of gas per year more than would be expected with near 100% battery powered miles driven. General maintenance like oil changes should probably be similar to a normal ICE vehicle since you're becoming time limited instead of usage limited with modern ICE oil aging (oil change intervals for normal driving are approaching or exceeding average yearly mileage for commuting). Are there any other maintenance concerns or failure modes for a potentially rarely used engine?

JimZ hit most of the points. It's simply not an issue.

The sealed nature of automotive fuel systems means that gas degradation really isn't a problem. Yes, there are a lot of high volatiles in there, but they have nowhere to go in a modern fuel system except the charcoal canister when that's open. Not a big deal.

And engine oil doesn't really suffer from age so much as use cycles. If you don't use the gas engine, there's no real wear going on with the oil - just run it every now and then to burn off the water, and you're fine. Modern oil change sensors are a really good option here.

Since the number of cold starts is so much lower, the engine in those cars will likely still have the cylinder hatching marks when the car goes to the junkyard.

Regarding range extenders, I'm not so sure. From my point of view I already have a great range extender: my other car. I don't need another. As long as EVs are expensive, they're going to primarily appeal to people who live in multiple car households. That won't be true eventually, but short term, I think it will be given the economics.

Problem is that current cars with range extenders aren't that attractive.

That is actually the point I was making. Range extenders aren't attractive if you have a second car that runs off of gasoline because you are unlikely to ever need two unlimited range vehicles at the same time.

Regarding range extenders, I'm not so sure. From my point of view I already have a great range extender: my other car. I don't need another. As long as EVs are expensive, they're going to primarily appeal to people who live in multiple car households. That won't be true eventually, but short term, I think it will be given the economics.

Problem is that current cars with range extenders aren't that attractive.

That is actually the point I was making. Range extenders aren't attractive if you have a second car that runs off of gasoline because you are unlikely to ever need two unlimited range vehicles at the same time.

I think they mean physical attractiveness. Both 9f those are ugly. Rex or no rex

Fuel cells? That seems more natural for use as a range extender than gasoline.

There are many pages of hydrogen fuel thread for fuel cell discussion. It's been gone around over and over and over and over, if you want to catch up on that thread. But, fundamentally, you can't meaningfully run a fuel cell on gasoline, and there's no hydrogen infrastructure, so... let's stick with what works for now.

On the topic of used Leafs, I'm actually interested in selling mine soon, but am super hesitant to just offload it to be sold on some dealer's used car lot. The problem I have is that a used Leaf, especially older ones like my 2012, has serious range limitations that a used car salesman simply would not be truthful about. They'd have no way of knowing the true range, and have every incentive to never find out, so that they could instead just advertise the original EPA range figures (which were already a bit optimistic).

I think that at the right price, a used Leaf could be a fantastic purchase for a well-informed consumer with a sufficiently short commute. For a typical, poorly-informed used car buyer, a used Leaf's gimped range is going to offer a terrible first (and possibly last) experience with an EV.

I bought an EV when I did in part to help support a nascent industry. I care enough about it thriving that I don't want to let it's early adopter products unfairly blemish the reputation of it's early mainstream products.

On the topic of used Leafs, I'm actually interested in selling mine soon, but am super hesitant to just offload it to be sold on some dealer's used car lot. The problem I have is that a used Leaf, especially older ones like my 2012, has serious range limitations that a used car salesman simply would not be truthful about. They'd have no way of knowing the true range, and have every incentive to never find out, so that they could instead just advertise the original EPA range figures (which were already a bit optimistic).

I think that at the right price, a used Leaf could be a fantastic purchase for a well-informed consumer with a sufficiently short commute. For a typical, poorly-informed used car buyer, a used Leaf's gimped range is going to offer a terrible first (and possibly last) experience with an EV.

I bought an EV when I did in part to help support a nascent industry. I care enough about it thriving that I don't want to let it's early adopter products unfairly blemish the reputation of it's early mainstream products.

LeafSpy helps a lot with that, if you're buying a used one. Though not many people know about that outside EV geeks.

What year/where is it/what's the current pack capacity/how much do you want? I'm willing to drive and tow for the right deal.

By the way, if people have things they'd like us to look at in front page coverage wrt EVs, this thread is a good place to do that.

I would enjoy a review of the Kia Niro Plugin Hybrid. They have a starting MSRP of $27,900. I think it has a large enough battery to qualify for the full $7500 federal tax credit. If California still has a $2500 credit in place, that makes for a very tempting price for a plugin hybrid with some cargo room.

Personally, I'm looking at selling a CR-V and a Leaf (to a good home) and replacing them with something like a Niro or Pacifica and a Model 3.

On the topic of used Leafs, I'm actually interested in selling mine soon, but am super hesitant to just offload it to be sold on some dealer's used car lot. The problem I have is that a used Leaf, especially older ones like my 2012, has serious range limitations that a used car salesman simply would not be truthful about. They'd have no way of knowing the true range, and have every incentive to never find out, so that they could instead just advertise the original EPA range figures (which were already a bit optimistic).

I think that at the right price, a used Leaf could be a fantastic purchase for a well-informed consumer with a sufficiently short commute. For a typical, poorly-informed used car buyer, a used Leaf's gimped range is going to offer a terrible first (and possibly last) experience with an EV.

I bought an EV when I did in part to help support a nascent industry. I care enough about it thriving that I don't want to let it's early adopter products unfairly blemish the reputation of it's early mainstream products.

LeafSpy helps a lot with that, if you're buying a used one. Though not many people know about that outside EV geeks.

What year/where is it/what's the current pack capacity/how much do you want? I'm willing to drive and tow for the right deal.

2012/56K miles/Hayward, Calif/9 bars/$2500, maybe?

It has minor cosmetic damage to the rear bumper where someone did a low-speed hit and run, which further discourages the used car lot approach.

I'm not ready to sell yet, though. I want to buy it's replacement first. I'll PM you when I'm actually ready to sell and we can discuss whether it makes sense.

I assume that's referring to my Leaf. Ya, it's steep. There's a few things factoring into what I'll let it go for:

1. Utility: What you can do with a 200+ mile freeway range is an order of magnitude more useful than what you can do with a <50 mile freeway range. As the battery has degraded over time, its real-world utility has significantly degraded. I'm factoring that into the price, because I want a price that is genuinely fair to the buyer.

2. Original Price: MSRP for a 2012 Nissan Leaf SL (has a CHAdeMO port) was $37,250. But I actually paid $18K due to some generous dealer incentives and tax credits. I think $18K was a pretty good price for the car, considering both its advantages and limitations. If you consider the price premium that early adopter tech normally carries, it was a steal. While perhaps that "shouldn't" affect the price I'm willing to sell for, in practice, it gets weighed in. Still, if I sell it mid-year, I'm looking at having paid about $235/month. I should have leased.

3. Major "repair" coming. Based on a couple anecdotal reports I've read on the web, I don't have much confidence that the battery will last beyond 100,000 miles without needing replacement, and that's only if you're willing to put up with a more and more restrictive range to eek out as much value as possible. Battery replacement looks to be ~$5,5000 via Nissan dealership, but I haven't researched it thoroughly. Also, I have my doubts about anyone being able to get a new battery in 2020 or so. Unless some 3rd party manufacturer finally steps in and starts making replacement batteries, I'm quite suspicious that you'll be getting a battery from Nissan that's been sitting on a shelf for a few years. Meanwhile, in 2020, there will be scads of much better cars on the market, even on the used market. I don't expect the battery replacement to make economic sense.

Of course, it's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic here. Certainly the people who've gotten to high mileages first are more likely to be regularly fast charging, and charging to 100%, possibly multiple times a day. I've been babying the battery, for the most part, but I think the calendar-age effects will eventually lay waste to any amount of short stroking.

4. To a Good Home: Explained in previous post. I don't want it going to someone who doesn't have a full understanding of what they're buying. But if someone here wants it, I'm willing to make sure the price is right.

@Syonyk Ya, most likely within next year, but not assured. I expect to get a Model 3 midyear, which will put us at 3 cars for two people, which we don't really have room for where we live. I would like to also swap our plain ol' ICE Honda CRV for a plugin hybrid sometime within the year, at which point the Leaf will become an unwelcome houseguest. It's that CRV -> Plugin Hybrid trade that injects the most uncertainty into things. If it looks like 2019 will have a lot better hybrid options available, we may end up keeping the Leaf for a full year.

@Everyone else: Sorry about injecting so much personal stuff into a tech thread. Hopefully some of the depreciation thoughts from a long-time Leaf owner will be of interest, even if details of my selling / buying cars may not be.

Fuel cells? That seems more natural for use as a range extender than gasoline.

There are many pages of hydrogen fuel thread for fuel cell discussion. It's been gone around over and over and over and over, if you want to catch up on that thread. But, fundamentally, you can't meaningfully run a fuel cell on gasoline, and there's no hydrogen infrastructure, so... let's stick with what works for now.

There are efforts to build out hydrogen fueling infrastructure, but there are still only 40 or so stations in the US. We'll just have to wait and see.

1. Utility: What you can do with a 200+ mile freeway range is an order of magnitude more useful than what you can do with a <50 mile freeway range. As the battery has degraded over time, its real-world utility has significantly degraded. I'm factoring that into the price, because I want a price that is genuinely fair to the buyer.

Do you know what the battery state is? Either in bars or in (preferably) actual kWh capacity? I'm interested in the rate of decay on them, but for me, even 40-50 miles is useful as a "town car" to head into town with. I was looking at some with lower miles, but certainly can't complain about your price...

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3. Major "repair" coming. Based on a couple anecdotal reports I've read on the web, I don't have much confidence that the battery will last beyond 100,000 miles without needing replacement, and that's only if you're willing to put up with a more and more restrictive range to eek out as much value as possible. Battery replacement looks to be ~$5,5000 via Nissan dealership, but I haven't researched it thoroughly. Also, I have my doubts about anyone being able to get a new battery in 2020 or so. Unless some 3rd party manufacturer finally steps in and starts making replacement batteries, I'm quite suspicious that you'll be getting a battery from Nissan that's been sitting on a shelf for a few years. Meanwhile, in 2020, there will be scads of much better cars on the market, even on the used market. I don't expect the battery replacement to make economic sense.

That's... an interesting issue, and one I'm following moderately. There are plenty of Leafs on the used market, but as you note, there's not a huge incentive to put fancy new packs into beaters. Unless you're the kind of guy who messes around with batteries for fun and thinks this sounds an amazing project.

The realistic likely option, if I can get the firmware to deal with it, is to parallel another set of Leaf cells with the existing pack, and run the balancing wires to each connection so the pack remains balanced (these wires won't handle much current so can be smaller, but still hefty for an EV pack).

Alternately, since I believe the pack comm protocol is understood, replace the whole pack with an alternate design - something based around 26650s or 21650s or something. That's an awful lot of work and cost, but... doable, at least. I'm concerned about winter charging, though - it does get cold here. The Leaf pack is an older design, though, and not one I think is particularly good.

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Of course, it's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic here. Certainly the people who've gotten to high mileages first are more likely to be regularly fast charging, and charging to 100%, possibly multiple times a day. I've been babying the battery, for the most part, but I think the calendar-age effects will eventually lay waste to any amount of short stroking.

Pretty much. Do what you can on the cycle life, but calendar life is a pain. And heat makes it worse. If I did rebuild a pack, I'd consider active thermal management. I'm not sure how I'd do that without taking a lot of space in the trunk, though... probably just accept that I'm taking up trunk space.

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4. To a Good Home: Explained in previous post. I don't want it going to someone who doesn't have a full understanding of what they're buying. But if someone here wants it, I'm willing to make sure the price is right.

I can haz Leaf to hack?

As I said, let me know. I'm likely interested, though it depends a bit on finances. A Leaf will, net, save us money, but that requires cashflow to actually buy it.

Okay, this seems like a good place to start a bit of discussion on subsidies. Because holy shit, the USA is great at subsidizing everything. As a European (stereotyped generally by: everything green is subsidized here and taxed through the roof), I'm eternally amazed how much the other way around the stereotype really should be.

We just bought a 2011 Leaf for €9000, and that is considered extremely cheap, even for a 9 bar Leaf. You rarely get them cheaper anywhere on the mainland for less. Even junk Leafs sell for €4-5k, and those need to be recertified to even drive. Much of this is due to lack of incentives, at least realtively. We don't have any tax credits or subsidies on EVs - literally none. Even outside of my country (Netherlands), the largest direct subsidy or refundable tax credit you can get is about €2500 (in Germany). The real 'subsidy' on EVs is in the form of waived pollution taxes (which can amount to a lot) and - mostly for businesses - refunded value-added tax and an investment tax credit. Still, even if you combine all of this the effective 'subsidy' on a new Leaf would be about €2500 net, bringing the price to €27500ish. Literally the best you can do.

So people value used EVs very highly; good luck finding any second hand EV for under €8000, most 2011-2014s are between €12k and €18k depending on trim level.

Add to that the fact that a 'short' range EV is still very useful around here. I live in a country about as flat as Kansas with moderate temperatures all year round and 70% of the country lives within a circle about the size of the NYC metro area. I went to a buddy this week in a town considered on the outskirts of this area, and I could have easily done that on a single charge - about 50mi round trip. This also adds to the value of the car.

Now of course, can we slap a moral value onto this? IMO, the American way is the right way here: on a fundamental level, electrification is something we need to speed up as much as possible to wean off of oil products. Electrified vehicles have the potential of reducing overall emissions and pollution in general by very large amounts, almost an order of magnitude in the long run. There is a clear path to progress, and investing a minute part of the GDP to hasten this and cement the US car industry as world leaders in this respect is a good thing. I wish this were done in Europe more. Basically only Norway cares at this point, and they don't even have a car industry. They're just subsidizing Tesla. By the way, subsidies around there are about the same as in CA.

And IMO you can clearly see the fruits of this labor in consumer acceptance and sales numbers; Leafs are very popular in the States compared to here. Flipside of course is that they depreciate much faster, as somehow people were able to buy new Leafs for the price of what a low-trim second hand one would cost here after 6 years :s. I mean, just wow.

But the gist I want to get at is: when is it enough? Clearly, a whole fuckton of subsidies works great. But can we get a similar boost when reducing subsidies or even eliminating them completely, sticking like most of Europe to 'soft' advantages, like priority in carpooling lanes, ability to drive in city centers that are off-limits to ICEs, reduced taxing and subsidized charging infrastructure. At some point you're picking winners instead of incentivizing a budding industry, and it's pretty hard to call a 300k cars per year industry nascent. It's pretty mature at this point.

Edit: oh, right, almost forgot to just add an important point: subsidies can have devastating effects as well, just look at the solar industry. Through mostly a completely broken regulatory system temporarily boosted by subsidies, home solar installations in the USA are about double to triple the cost of installations in Europe, which have mostly not gotten any direct subsidies, but rather got de facto net metering. Combined with differences in energy usage between the regions, this makes a home solar installation affordable on a single month's salary in Europe, versus typically about an entire year's salary in the USA. So things can go the other way around. All else being equal, subsidies seem to be a good incentive, but you need to have regulatory support as well.

Edit: oh, right, almost forgot to just add an important point: subsidies can have devastating effects as well, just look at the solar industry. Through mostly a completely broken regulatory system temporarily boosted by subsidies, home solar installations in the USA are about double to triple the cost of installations in Europe, which have mostly not gotten any direct subsidies, but rather got de facto net metering. Combined with differences in energy usage between the regions, this makes a home solar installation affordable on a single month's salary in Europe, versus typically about an entire year's salary in the USA. So things can go the other way around. All else being equal, subsidies seem to be a good incentive, but you need to have regulatory support as well.

What's the installed cost per watt over there?

Getting below $2/watt for a rooftop microinverter based system is doable out here, but not without either a lot of searching around or doing a lot of the work yourself.

And do you have something like the UL 1741-SA requirements for inverters, or are they still empty VARs with no stability services?

Well, in the Model 3 thread we went into the limitations of supercharging, especially the issue of surge pricing seriously hampering the economics of supercharging.

So it might be possible to make a hydrogen range extender, in a fairly compact configuration as well.

Of course, you cannot rely on car buyers actually using cars as they are designed. There are a number of Chevy Volts out there which were never recharged but were driven as gas cars by guys in corporate fleets who didn’t know any better.