Rapture Drill for Children

I heard something I found particularly offensive this morning. The teens in a local Christian church are going to go around late tonight. They are going to go to the homes of the smaller children, wake them up and whisk them away to the IHOP. They claim it's how Jesus will come in the Rapture. A thief in the night. They are preparing the kids so they won't be frightened when the time comes.

I don't think they are implying that Jesus would foot the bill for a group meal at the local pancake house; but I still find the whole thing oddly off balance. I'm not ready to call it abuse, but it seems it would be psychologically damaging to make small children think they might be separated from their parents by a god.

I would disagree. Obviously. I'm not sure how comparing the two is possible. Halloween is presented as fun and make believe. The Rapture is presented as an impending reality.

A kid gets scared on a hayride, you console him and tell him it isn't real. What if they are scared of being separated from their parents in the Rapture? Do you also tell them it isn't real? Of course not. That fear lives in that child every moment of every day. It's bad parenting, if nothing more.

I think the only thing wrong with it is that they're trying to apply a specific literal interpretation (the "Left Behind" idea) to kids' lives that even the adults could be wrong about, and the kids are not mature enough yet to weigh and understand.However, the basic Christian doctrine of Jesus, life and death, good and evil, etc., most little kids CAN grasp enough to validate parents teaching it to them.

It rather annoys me that people want to say Christians are abusing their kids, when in fact it's much more probable that atheism and liberal views are dangerous to a child's psyche; they're definitely more confusing.

@Emile-Ihop sounds fun to me,perhaps we would need to hear the whole excercise behind it and not jump to conclusions.

My kids enjoyed youth group activities ,though to other people seemed odd, like the time I remember they slept in cardboard boxes in a park one night to experience a small part of being homeless..they were well supervised and controlled and was part of a whole church community outreach at the time.

I agree...need to know more information about the concept and the ages of the "children" being whisked away! I am assuming parents have already given permission, therefore it is likely to be a well supervised activity.

Why do we sell short those activities that give "children" (who are smarter than EVER) thought-provoking opportunities? We applaud and encourage them to participate in helping in soup kitchens, charity fundraisers and rebuilding of communities, why not participate in future planning activities for their spiritual well being!?

This is more educational than abusive. Again, though, there is not enough information to make a true decision. If I were concerned as a parent, I would volunteer to help supervise.

You say superstition; 90% of parents buying Halloween costumes assume it's all in fun. Again, right wing Christians let their imaginations get the best of them.

And house to house, trick or treating, is not the same thing as being approached by a stranger.

My avatar is a picture of a print hanging in my living room. The flying lizard represents the church. The girl represents innocence. I used to glance at it once a day as I left the house to remind myself how hard the church works to raise suspicion and find evil in the most innocuous things. I haven't had to look at it once in the past few weeks since the Christians are so vocal about their silly fears of a children's holiday.

Every culture that I am aware of celebrates a day when we consider the dead, here in China families go up and clean the tombs and spend time with the ancestors. The idea of gifts and offering food to the dead is in pretty much all the cultures, trick or treating is just an extension of these traditions.

It was christianity that was invented to ward off the evil spirits since they didn't understand illness and death (ignorance) - they called the scientists of their day wizards, the doctors witches and burnt them all, thus plunging Europe into the dark ages of plagues and suffering because prayer is no substitute for knowledge. Chinese medicine is enlightening in this respect as it concentrates first and foremost on preventative measures before cure; I guess all ancient medicine would have been this way.

The big difference in the two issues is that all kids know that halloween is about horror and is not true, what these christians are doing is instilling real fear of an imagined event.

I understand many different cultures remember the dead in their own significant way-

Trick or treating back then ,was not like it is today.

The Celts as they came to the end of Autumn ,gathered and stored up their crops,and before the long cold days of Winter approached it was also a gathering together to rest from all the work and socialise.

I did some research last year and wrote a little hub about the ancient customs of Halloween-I found it quite interesting reading about the original customs.

An excerpt from my hub.

The long dark winter night often bitterly cold also bought with it ,illness and death. Of course people died other times of the year too ,but the Celts were a curious and suspicious people and sensitive to the link between the living and the dead.

The ghosts of the dead were to be acknowledged and embraced for if not, the Celts believed they could be become annoyed and angry, often playing havoc with crops or individuals.Unexplained illness and death was often blamed on these 'troublesome spirits'

So they celebrated Samhain on October 31st ,the end of summer and farming crops hoping to please the spirits during the cold dark winter months.

scaring kids about religious beliefs is ok?you have to be kidding. comparing it to halloween is not only silly but absurd. kids have fun on halloween and if some religious nut came and tried to scare my kids about the "rapture" they would think the rapture came down on their heads.

And the children may be very disappointed when they realise that the Rapture hasn't come. It will be like waiting for Father Christmas, only to find on Christmas morning that he hasn't visited them. Children take these things literally.

Jesus died a peaceful and natural death in Kashmir, India. He is not to come again literally and physically. Symbolic advent of Jesus has already happened with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah and the peaceful rapture has already taken place.

Never. Usually, when I reply to a post; I put something in the post. I'm not sure I see the point of replying to something I posted, only to attempt to bring the original post to the forefront again. Actually, I don't think I have ever replied to myself. But then, I really don't think what I have to say is so important. It is my personal thought. Then I move on to another thought. Or state it in a different way.

When our ten year old daughter heard about the Rapture, she put two and two together and said, (more or less) whilst she wanted to be with God, she would still rather grow up and have children.

Not an unreasonable request!

I had to explain a few things.....

First, as and when (and even if) the Rapture happens, she would become instantly eternal and her growing up would be complete, in that she would instantly return to the full spiritual being we actually are.

Second, when she saw Christ (with the pre-emptive above)she would be ecstatically joyous no matter what had happened before, it's just bound to be that way, like when you see your best friend after years of missing them. There are no tears or fears in heaven.

But mainly I told her not to worry about something which may not even happen in her lifetime, because NOBODY knows the time it will happen.

There are four positions on the Rapture anyway:

1.I will not happen at any time and is an invention of man.

2.It will happen before the tribulation take splace, and ONLY those who are true in belief will be taken.

3.It will happen midway through the tribulation, 3 1/2 years after the Antichrist is revealed but before the real trib starts.

4.It will happen at the end of the tribulation.

We (believers) need to exercise caution about how we explain things to our children, I remember one young girl when I first came to faith who took the whole Rapture thing so seriously, she got herself pregnant so that she would experience motherhood before she was Raptured.

The rhetoric she had been hearing (not from me) about the IMPENDING Rapture that could happen at any second, made her do what she thought was right. It caused her such grief, especially as the child developed severe disabilities and she has needed to care for it ever since.

If God moves in mysterious ways, the enemy moves in very predictable ways!

So I strongly disagree with Rapture drills in the middle of the night, these kids need to know that when and if the Rapture happens,it will happen, and all we can do is follow the advice given (and the only directive I can find) to 'watch and pray that you will be accounted worthy to escape all these things'.

Better to prepare children to live their lives as moral and joyous people than to frighten them into thinking that their parents religion is nuts.

I love the way you put that. That's cute. It wasn't an article. But I guess it would have been had they not come back. I doubt the exercise would have been considered newsworthy by the local media. The idea of the Rapture is accepted reality by many of the churches here.

As others have pointed out, we teach our children all types of fantasy games. It could certainly be presented as a fun excursion. Unfortunately, the other fantasies discussed are easily understood as such as children grow.We understand the foolishness of nursery rhymes when old enough to consider the words. Santa becomes a fond childhood memory.

The Rapture teaches a child that the world is evil and never stops telling them that. A lifetime of separating oneself. Not out of love, but fear. It breeds suspicion and hatred. Not something we attempt to teach our children on any other level. I find it sad that the idea is still being drummed into children today.

I would find it horrific if this is being drummed in to children, but equally I would find it horrific if believers did not explain, with care and concern, what could happen during their lifetime, in their understanding.

We never forget that the first real disappointing lie we hear is about Santa Claus, and it is told to us by our parents, who know full well it is a lie, but keep the lie going 'for the sake of the kids'.

I think that is very important to remember. If you want to raise your child with a belief in God; every belief you tack on top of that will someday, hopefully, be evaluated. How many superfluous additions can a belief structure stand against? One lie? Two? Two dozen?

Is it not religion who is most responsible for the growing number of non believers? You can't cry wolf time and again for a hundred years without people taking notice. The Rapture idea is religion at one of its low points. imo.

Whilst I agree that the Rapture has been spoken about for years (well mainly since the end of WW2 for most believers) the reasoning is that it WILL happen and every generation of believers are told to watch and pray, that they may be accounted worthy to escape all these things.

So each generation of believers is aware that it MAY happen on their watch, and since WW2, there have certainly been increasing signs that it could happen anytime.

Scripture tells us that no man will know the time of the Lords coming, and that He will come like a 'thief in the night' i.e. unannounced.

Correctly stated, children have the instinctive urge to believe their parents tell the truth, unless it is patently obvious they do not, and as such they learn to think for themselves in their prepubescent period, when they start having the capacity to evaluate what they have been taught, and quickly spot any error in what they have been told.

I forsook church aged 8 years old, when I realized that the story did not match the picture I saw. But that was more because my family were token Christians, and the church I attended were more intent on cookie cutter religion than teaching us who Christ actually is.

But despite that diversion, plus all the other diversions that growing up in the 60's provided, I still gradually came round to re examining the Christ story, albeit with the view of discounting it for once and for all, but then found that I could not reject what He stated.

The rest is history as they say.

So the fact that every generation is watching for the Rapture to happen, is not a case of failure of scripture, and in truth, I guess whilst it will be exciting to be 'the generation that does not taste death' it is also a relief I would imagine for most, that they also did not have to face the things that will precede the immanent arrival of Christ.

Christ will return when the time is ripe for His return, but He will return and the events foretold will happen, and most of the world will then come to realize that they had rejected their Savior.

Oh yeah. I forgot about the ‘imminent return’. So, that makes two thousand years of lies by the church that the child has to learn how to swallow, when they are old enough to think for themselves; if they want to continue belief in God. It’s a little amazing we have anyone believing anymore.

The problem is simple. There are many interpretations of scripture. Many sects within Christianity believe many things. An humble person would accept the obvious. Which is that since there is no consensus among the religious, theologians and scholars; they cannot claim to know the mind of God. They would not push scripture to back up their opinion. All you did by your post, from where I am sitting, was validate, in your own mind, a belief you hold.

I believe that if there were a god who wanted those who wanted to know him to know his mind, there would be no confusion. He would ensure a uniform understanding. In the absence of a uniform understanding, any attempt to claim you are repeating God's words, or passing on prophesy, is tantamount to thinking you are God.

If God exists, I wonder how that deity would view such arrogance, considering that God, himself, would have had reasons to ensure there was a lack of consensus.

You are the Sanhedrin. Lock stock and barrel. You might as well embrace it. Attempting to throw the label onto others doesn't mean anything other than that you are blind to your actions. As they were.

He has already give us all the words we will ever receive prior to our meeting with Him:

Revelation 22 18-21 ...last word.

I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the [e]predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book.

And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.

He Who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!

The grace (blessing and favor) of the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) be with all the saints (God's holy people, those set apart for God, to be, as it were, exclusively His). Amen (so let it be)!

Please explain why the Jews, Hindus,Muslims, Buddhists and all others don't agree with this. Until you can, you are sharing an opinion. Not the word of any god speaking for the benefit of all of humanity.

Actually there are plenty of Jews, Hindus,Muslims, Buddhists who have come to faith in Christ, that after all was the reasoning behind the Great Commission to preach the word to all tribes and tongues, and so far believers have managed to reach all but a very few tribes and tongues.

The essence of the Great Commission was that in each tribal group would be given the good news about Christ, and once there were believers in that tribal group, they would complete the work of bringing the gospel to the rest.

Frankly I doubt you would find many people alive in the world today,who could claim that they had not heard the gospel about Christ at least once in their lives, and hence they have received the invitation, and are free to accept or reject that invitation as they choose. Free Will.

Of course satellite TV has made things simpler, but I still have on Kenyan pastor who walks regularly though Kenya and preaches in the villages that are unaccessable by the world in general.

So (before) Christ returns every ethnic and tribal group will have been offered the good news about Christ, and every individual will have decided to either accept Christ as their Lord and Master or reject Him and go their own way.

God, by definition, obviously speaks for all humanity, just as parents speak for their children before they reach majority.

But if folk wish to deny their Father and leave the family, that is their choice, if they come back, like the prodigal son, they get a huge welcome as the whole kingdom celebrate the rakes return.

It's really each individuals choice.

You seem to dislike the alternatives though, and for that you blame God, and any believer that persists in telling folk that there are choices to be made.

If our Christ is of no consequence and we are wrong in what we believe, and you are convinced that you are right, why continue to pick at the scab of Christianity?

If it is dying in your eyes, leave it alone and it would surely die faster and more quietly?

Instead secularists MUST pick that scab, and constantly revive the 'dying corpse' by kicking it into a response.

Seems strange how secularists continue debating something they insist does not exist?

That is your opinion. It is not backed up by all of the Christian faith, or all of the faiths that believe in one God, or all believers. That's the problem EK. You can't make statements like that as if they were fact.

Only because you see it as foretold. As have many generations that came before you. But, again, it is simply what you choose to believe. I know you can't understand this, but a major part of the disarray today is caused by the religious such as yourself. I don't think that was the plan of any god.

I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but two thousand years of what you think is going to happen not happening is a sign. A big sign. In flashing neon. It isn't a sign that says there is no God. It is a sign that religion misread something. That what you think is wrong. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't die on a cross and wasn't resurrected. It means you've gotten something wrong. Living in denial doesn't change that fact. It simply holds you back from spiritual growth.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Gods word ,not my opinion.

Emile ,you said this :

That is your opinion. It is not backed up by all of the Christian faith, or all of the faiths that believe in one God, or all believers. That's the problem EK. You can't make statements like that as if they were fact.

Wow, how can you speak for all of the Christian faiths?,oh easy just say it huh

Do you actually read the other posts on this forum? There are quite a few professed Christians who disagree with you on the subject of Satan. I read their posts, I don't speak for anyone, but me. And as I've said before (although if you don't read the posts there would be no reason to assume you know this) I was raised in a Christian environment and very little of what you preach was accepted dogma by those people I was surrounded by. They weren't a cult like evangelical Christianity seems to have become.

It's my prerogative to change my mind, right?Or at least clarify.That situation is a bit disturbing, in my view.But I still think it's the parents' right to allow it if they want to.It's not something I would do, as I said earlier, because kids need to be allowed to be kids & not make those kinds of adult decisions.

I agree, for the most part. Parents should have the right to teach children what they believe to be true. I simply wonder at parents who appear to go overboard with the beliefs that don't line up with reality.

I'm not sure I agree with your views on liberals and atheists. I was raised in a Christian home and I wasn't confused, but I'm pretty liberal, and I don't think my son was ever confused, either. You might tend to be overly imaginative about what you think we are up to.

Seems to me it is like that question asked earlier, why does not God show itself? The kids are suppose to conform to a conception of God, or kids should be able to make up their own minds as and when they can.

I agree. There are so many things that should be left unsaid, let children come to their own conclusions as they grow and learn. Singing Jesus Loves Me is one thing; saying Jesus is going to snatch you out of your bed at night and take you away is another thing entirely. I can't imagine how much that would have frightened me as a child.

I only watched a few seconds. Typical tripe. Sorry, I find that type of thing somewhat offensive. Instead of consistently trying to point out all that is wrong with the world and pretend that there is only evil; I'd appreciate an evangelical or two pointing to the things that are good and attempting to contribute to make it a better place. As your good book says 'God saw that it was good'. Why can't those who claim to believe in him agree with him?

You say typical tripe,yet you offer no other alternative,no hope,no positive message.Maybe instead of finding fault ,you could offer up a solution, or be happy that what you see ,and hear is all there is (for you)

It is easy to disagree,but being part of a solution is better.

I am glad God warns through This message,and it is a wise person who heeds the warning signs..

Like the songs says:I wish we'd all been ready...

Kids are bombarded every day via the media, via web media. What would you personally offer them as reality- 'Have fun,live in neverland,stay forever young,better yet build a bubble ,nothing bad is ever going to happen

I would strongly disagree with all of this. The most destructive lie is that we should all bend and put up with it all because it will all be ok after we die - or in this case get raptured.

The music video is vile tripe not even as worthy of viewing as the trip so-called poetry that is just emotive religious drivel for the mentally impaired.

No seriously spiritual or sensible religious person would have a moment for that kind of music and that kind of message. I am surprised to see sucha normally sensible person as you, E Wiki, giving this tripe the slightest encouragement, let alone support.

I don't consider what I have read of your posts a positive contribution to an alternative solution. An attitude that condemns the world isn't positive.

Which is funny, really. I see hope for us to find a way to solve our problems; if superstition and condemnation were set aside. You see hope for the world if we'd all be superstitious and condemn the world. The continuing question is; how do we all get past this and work together?

Well that's a new twist on things.I'll have an extra side of maple syrup and real butter, thank you.

I suspect they will get more 'Katholic Kids' in their beds, as the rest will be tossing eggs and toilet paper at 'thy neighbor's house' tomorrow, then off to mass on All Hallows Day ( technically called all Saints Day ).

I remember, many years ago, teenagers used to go around late at night and "kidnap" someone on their birthday. They would take them to a Denny's or some other all night diner and the one being "kidnapped" had to go in their pajamas. It was mostly harmless fun, I guess until, being kidnapped became all too real a fear for parents. I sure hope the parents of the "rapture drill" kids are there to reassure them that this is only for fun, so they don't think the idea of being lured from your home by people you may or may not know so well with the promise of going to IHOP, isn't acceptable under any other situation.

I think these kinds of "kids shocking kids into submission" activities are absolutely counter productive. In the past decade or so I've noticed a rise in the youth group culture within various church communities and it seems to be less positive every day. Several years ago two of my daughters were invited by a friend to attend what was called a kid's day carnival at her church (a mega-church). The event was sponsored by the youth group. After the event began, the older kids requested a show of hands from those children who had been "saved". Having been raised in a Catholic tradition, my daughters didn't understand the expression and so didn't raise their hands. They and a few others were then seperated from the other "carnival attendees" and taken to a classroom where they were told in no uncertain terms by the older children that were going to hell-and were then forced to watch a series of skits about children who thought they were living good lives but ended up in hell anyway. Seriously. It's all becoming a little too "children of the corn" for me.

Some have assumed how the excersise will be done based on the OP.I feel some imaginations are getting a little carried away.

Shock tactics going to IHOP...well wish someone would shock me right about now-Yum.

Incidently if you are really worried about the detrimentaly mental health on children ,then you would need to prohibit most of our old nursery ryhmes too...

Jack n Jill ..Jack broke his head y'knowRing a ring o roses..chants all about the plague and deathOranges and lemons rang the bells of St Clements, here comes the chopper to chop of your head-(historic facts)..

Gosh and then there are the Grimms Bros-classic writers,which could send you child into therapy -not IHop. NO much more fun than Hansel and Gretel's abusive Grandma or Red Riding Hoods violent encounters...Not real you say, well if Im a 5/6 yr old and my community or life reflects these things, it sure as hell feels real.

I always remember a nursery ryhme my dad used to say to me, which started with my name (the name of whichever child was being sung to was inserted), followed by, "is no good, chop him up for firewood. When he's dead, bury his head..." I can't remember the rest, but it was something violent.

I also remember the three blind mice one, who had their tails cut off with a carving knife. Our ancestors must have been a bloody lot.

You are correct about the amount of violence in nursery rhymes. I never really thought about the words when I was a kid. Only as I got older did I understand what was being said. It's the rhythm and cadence that makes them so easy for young kids to follow and repeat. To bad there wasn't a more positive message in them. I do believe that's the point being discussed, how important it is to give a positive message of life to children. Although I'm pretty sure nobody is saying your kids will go to hell if they don't do as Jack and Jill did. I know if I had chosen to have children, I would not have opted to read the rhymes you mentioned to them. I live in the Nirvana of Christian mega-churches and they were getting out of hand for a while. Carnivals like S G Hupp talked about. At one point they began grabbing kids off the street, forcing them into a van to baptize them against their will.I'm sure you can see how that type of action was being done by people whose devotion had crossed over into Zealotry. You seem to brush off any negative side effect, claiming it's okay if, "done in the name of the Lord." That attitude does not fly with the mass majority of American's and I feel, your cause would be more widely accepted if moderate Christians would stand up-speak-up against the more extremist point of view held by those who claim to be Christians.I for one, am not interested in "prohibiting" you expressing the stories you believe in to those who chose to listen. Beyond that point it gets a little questionable regarding personal rights, liberty and freedoms.

They are preparing the kids so they won't be frightened when the time comes.

Eaglekiwi:My posts overall are not supporting or against the activities mentioned in the original post.On one hand if its a controlled event with the permission of parents ,than I don't see the harm. Depends on the age of the children too. For example an 10/12 yr old who has some awareness of the Bible(Im assuming it would tie in with that that they had already been learning) would be fine. And since I read midight or very late I suspect its not planned for the very young anyway.

Aquasilver described the rapture and events really well,least thats how I understand it to be.

There are some Christians,who claim to 'Hollywood' up everything ,that no doubt have a field day with any story or parable.

You are correct TK and that I do not fully understand the why's and and wherefores of some spiritual behaviour(freedoms) in the U.S

Also I have never said nor do I agree with "If Its done in the name of the Lord" mentality. It disgusts me actually how many Christians have misused his name in the name of love...

Passion for Christ should always reflect His nature and His truth,or its bad fruit ,to the core and should be exposed and disgarded. (my translation) lol

And their are Christian groups who sincerely seek to expose radical behavior that you have rightfully discussed.

Finally the scripture that seems to ire people the most is

You will go to hell,if you dont believe (actually its accept)..but seriously where did they think they were going?

We don't think we're going anywhere different from you. That is the difference. That is where the ire rests. Basically, your stance (as outlined in the post) is that if we don't agree, we can go to h*ll. If I responded with a f** you, is that any different? Would I be less loving, for saying the same thing, in a different way, that you've said to me? If passion for Christ is what you claim when this opinion that we can go to h*ll for not agreeing is pushed, Christianity has a strange way of claiming affiliation with the one they are named after.

The thing is if you can leave emotion out of the equation for a moment,why would you want to go to Heaven(Im not saying you personally do not/or do) but if one dont like the things of God (ie Jesus is the son of God etc and what you must do to be saved) then why would a person want to be in a place where those teachings are paramount?

I dont tell anyone to go to Hell or You are going to hell-but it is written ,so maybe you could direct your responses to him

If the law courts rule now,and a judge ultimately presides, guilty or not guilty,those consquences are the result of the law.

God is no different ,with perhaps one exception ,He has never changed his laws,they are the same today as they were yesterday.

No confusion, no descrimination,no color/race/gender issuesI like that

I've written extensively in hubs and on this forum, but I think I'm just wasting my time. It's like having a wee in the wind. The fundies have been told for so many years by so many people in so many Churches that God will willfully burn 98% of humanity, that they cannot conceive anything different. They refuse to study their bibles or Jewish culture themselves to see whether or not these things are true. They only read bibles in ye olde worlde Englishe or so called modern translations that provide the official party line interpretations for them.

They wholeheartedly believe that God loves people when they are alive, but hates them when they die, and ignore the refrain in the psalms that His love endures forever. So they concoct bizarre ideas to get God off the hook, like the unbeliever chooses to go to hell.

No matter. Whatever line of reasoning they follow, whatever interpretations tickle their ears, at the end of it all, they can look inside their hearts and see they have abandoned compassion.

I was a member of a various assortment of Churches, and attended many others over 25 years. I've seen lots of 'God TV', and listened to rather a lot of Christian music too. It is a basic fundamental doctrine everywhere I have been that unless someone has said a sinners prayer and asked their own personnal Jesus into their hearts, they are going to Hell when they die.

Now you may call this stereotyping and applying labels, but if 98% of 'born again spirit filled bible believing' Christians believes this to be the case, then I'm making a valid observation.

I left the Church 2 years ago because I no longer believed that this doctrine, amongst others were biblical. I started to look at the bible with a fresh eyes approach, look at Church history, and to look at Jewish theology. It wasn't long before many doctrine crumbled away.

Your spiritual journey sounds similar to mine ,in so much as observing,attending various places of worship,spanning several years etc.

And then there is ones personal relationship with Jesus Christ/God and the Bible,other Christians etc.Individually unique no doubt.

I am a born again Christian as I took Christs word literally and spiritually (as I understood it) first birth ,we know about ,2nd birth -baptism and born of Christ.

I do not say every one must make the decision I made, but,it was right for me.

I take the view that my actions should reflect the example of Christ,strive for peace, goodwill and unconditional love (short version) but I'm sure you get the gist,and I should be ready to be accountable etc.

But stereotyping can be misleading. For example I have been in some evangelical gatherings that were controlled and disciplined ,and other churches where Ive walked out-

I also feel similarily to athiests,some are respectful,some are rude.

That is what I meant about the human element.

So while a person may believe in a doctrine or ethos in common,their individual relationship and outworking may be quite different.

It is good to remain open (I feel) and it is the closed mind that misses out(imo)

As you know I have trod many pathways also, and I have trodden the 'universal salvation' pathway right through to the end, and like it, and in fact challenged on of the best theologians I know about it.

His answer was interesting, as the ONLY verse that at 'ground zero' could stand against it is concerning Judas:

Mark 14:20-22King James Version (KJV)And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Abandoned compassion. So true. Funny, because I found compassion to be the primary trait of Yeshua. I guess his message just doesn't appeal as much as the one taught today in the evangelical churches. They remind me of the mother asking if her sons could have places of honor. They don't seem to get it.

I find this all very bizarre, and is one of those mega American Church ideas that make me want to put my head in my hands and groan.

From what I see here, we have a heady mix of the following:1) A particular literal view on Revelation that breeds ill informed hysteria. There are very many scholars who believe the book was not written by John the Apostle and gas no place in the bible at all. Alternatively he was writing img code; referring to his present Roman Empire, knowing the writings would be intercepted.2) An interpretation of Daniel that completely disregards the fact that the message was to ancient Israel, that tries to interpret 'one week' as being in our future.3) A complete disregard that Yashua's prophecy concerned the demise of the state of Israel.4) Blind acceptance of 'the rapture' and 'tribulation' theory that was only invented In its present form from the 18th to 19th centries.

Try getting the evangelicals to believe that. They enjoy the idea of a holiday in heaven while the rest of us suffer a hell on earth, then a hell in hell. Without hell to imagine the rest of us in I doubt they'd be motivated to believe in the Rapture.

I doubt you understand me at all. I have doubts that the evangelical christian understands themself. Pushing a message of separatism; where people are judged by an unreasonable standard, then herded; to live for eternity in misery makes it appear you follow a god who might be the ultimate Hitler. The evangelical; the Nazi who follows without compassion. Toeing the party line without independent thought. It's reflected in the comments that speak of a knowledge of love, then condemning any who disagree to the concentration camp. Because, as you stated, where else did they think they would go?

Why should you ponder the insane inequity of the philosophy? The justice? I'm not a pawn to be moved around a cosmic playing field against my will. I'm not afraid to expect a deity to be compassionate to all. I don't understand anyone who will buy into a belief and be willing to blindly advocate injustice on any level of existence.

I think that the whole idea of the Rapture is the most unchristian, unloving concept that I have ever heard of anyway, but if grown adults want to believe in it then it is their choice.

But to frighten small children by telling them that they might wake up one night and find their parents gone is just cruel. Children need to feel very secure in their connections with their parents, and totally trust that they will always be there for them, or they are likely to grow up with emotional problems and have problems in their future relationships.

I personally don't buy into the 'sin' and guilt thing, but wouldn't be more likely that the parents would wake up and find the kids gone, as kids can't sin?

they have it wrong anyway. The Bible says in a blink of an eye, you can't roll play that cause your not fast enough, and how do they know if their parents will or will not be with them. That is really careless.

You do realize you are accusing me (the OP) of being confused and doubtful. I just presented the facts, and gave my opinion. I realize facts and personal opinions are frowned upon by the religious but it doesn't mean I am confused or doubtful. Your post (attempting to deflect the problem in order not to admit there is one) is, of course, all too familiar also.

No I don't think Eaglekiwi was accusing you of anything, the topic I suspect she is referring to is not your post, but the whole hoohaa created around the Rapture Ready gang and that probably was 'just sensationalism born out of doubt and confusion.'

Of course I could be wrong! and no doubt Eaglekiwi will answer for herself.

You could be right. Always best to give the benefit of the doubt. But since EK has strongly defended the actions of those headed to the IHOP throughout her posts on this thread, I assumed she meant otherwise.

Emile ,you strongly have doubted a few motives here n there,hence my use of that word.

And aqua is correct in the other department, since you began your post Emile,I concluded that the whole topic is heresay...something you heard. I don't doubt for a moment you heard what you did ,but what I did relise is ,all the facts were not present! so that makes it hear say.. something you heard.

Hence the sensationalism that follows- bordering on child abuse? ,scaring young children etc

And if you'd really been observant you would have see me supporting children with positive responsible actions via example also ,which is why I never liked the idea of my children begging for candy..and fantasing about the dead

Emile:But you relise that religious frown upon facts and personal opinions anyway? looks like double standards -ha ,guess I should not be surprised-but I always am..

I have ceased to be surprised by the double speak from the religious. I'm not sure what double standards you are talking about for me; but you bounce back and forth between claiming you don't understand why we don't understand that we are headed for your hell, to swearing you just want to love everyone, to insisting we are superstitious because you don't understand a holiday, to claiming you never said any of it.

I'm getting dizzy just wondering if you know what you think. You seem to change course with every other post.

It's quite simple, really. It isn't the belief that matters. We all have beliefs. It is how the evangelical acts out their belief that offends me. I started this thread with a simple question. You insisted on going off topic with a bit of a rant about Halloween. Why? Beats the heck out of me.

You insisted on posting some irritating video with the left behind theme and then went on to attempt to preach your personal message. Again, off topic. Then made a point of ranting about nursery rhymes.

Then, you preached again, ending with You will go to hell, if you dont believe (actually its accept)..but seriously where did they think they were going? I find that offensive too, I don't think I've been overly quiet in my opinion of that type of post. Of course, when I commented, you made sure you posted a preachy message in response. Only an evangelical has the audacity to think they speak for God; but there you went.

I do ignore the evangelicals as much as possible. You chose to post on this thread and since I started it; I'll speak when I feel compelled. I realize you believe you speak for God, but I don't share that belief.

Yes, well; we all seem to spend time yakking on this forum. I suppose your comment was to be expected. Isn't 'do as I say, not as I do' the evangelical mantra?

I haven't posted a sermon on this thread. You asked for an explanation so I gave it. You have a problem with the fact that religion and philosophy isn't closed to everyone but those who share your views. So sorry.

And I've decided that the word evangelical encompasses most of those who insist on bringing up hell, condemn others but call it an act of love and support the idea of the Rapture. I could say fundie, but that wouldn't be fair because the fundies have been clear that they don't believe in the Rapture.

And lastly; I only gave my opinion on your rants about Halloween and nursery rhymes because you asked. As you notice, I didn't really comment before that. I accept the fact that what I consider to be off topic is more of a tangent for the religious. But, you did ask.

I wasn't going to comment on your post chastising ATM, but I feel compelled to since you got a kudo post. I kind of disagree with you.

You tell him to not come onto the forum, don't watch the tv, don't answer the door. If the religious can evangelize wherever they want, he has every right to complain about it wherever he wants. I would think.

Personally, I split Christians into two groups. There are those who use the bible, and Christianity itself as a framework for a good life. Their intention is to be the sort of person that others would like to be or like to know. The second type of Christian is the group that uses the bible and their Christianity as an excuse to appoint themselves Heaven's personal gatekeepers. They are about excluding masses of humans from what they perceive to be their personal hereafter. I attend a very traditional, old-world style, Anglican church and I have NEVER heard any mention of judging ANYONE, or of taking any sort of action towards someone to turn them toward a certain belief. It is all about BEING a true Christian so that others will want to as well, rather than TELLING people about what an awesome Christian you are and that they'd better be one too if they know what's good for them. Huge difference."You Can Preach A Better Sermon With Your Life Than Your Lips"

The Christians who have my uptmost respect are those who lead by example.One such elderly couple come to mind and although they were always ready to teach newcomes to the faith ,they were just as quick to be practical in good works. The man planted a small garden for me, and another girl (we were both single mums, and showed us what to do for several weeks)The woman taught us recipes, from easy produce and actively encouraged us to try creative projects...

Jim Jone's adherents used to do similar rapture type drills with children, they also did the following which is taken from Edith Rollers journal notes:

John Gardner, 15: 120 whacks with the board..." "John screamed as he took 70 whacks; at that point Jim commuted his sentence.

Clarence Klingman, 12: seven rounds boxing..." " Mark gave him some severe punches while Jack Bean stayed behind him with a paddle to make him stand up..."

Little Ronald Campbell, 3: "Even after being up all night with the toothbrush(scrubbing floors), he bit a little girl today. Jim assigned him to work all night. Jim had Dave Garrison bite him so that he knows what it feels like."

After being abused these children were required to say "Thank you, Father" into a microphone in front of the congregation.

Matthew 24:24-25King James Version (KJV)For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.

That sums up Jonestown and Waco I am afraid, unfortunately some believers are not 'very elect' and get drawn into these false cults.

How many times does it take to get the point across that no one is mocking God. Stop confusing your personal opinion with that of a deity. The arrogance is appalling. I respect many, many interpretations. I have no respect for the interpretation that allows the believer to condemn others and call it love or that sets itself above others and calls the rest of humanity evil. It's a travesty of faith.

I'm going to weigh back in with out going back and re-reading the entire thread so I hope this thought hasn't already been expressed...but God gifted us with common sense and fully expects us to use it. Common sense tells me that God, in his wisdom would not create "all the tribes of man" so to speak, but place one specific criteria on their salvation (in this case the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personal savior) while fully knowing that literally billions of individuals throughout history and to this very day have no knowledge of and no ability to learn of the teachings of Christ. When Christ says that the only way to Heaven is through him, the logical interpretation is that we should all live according to his basic principles (see the 10 commandments etc...) most of which are present in one form or another in virtually every society regardless of whether they are directly associated with Christ or not. I don't believe God is in the business of damning people based on personal vanity. Sadly, when I think of "false christs and false prophets" what comes to mind are the millionaire evangelicals with their anonymous mega churches, and their book and television deals with their faces plastered all over everything.

Yours is a very nice post and I agree in many ways. Unfortunately though, the 'false christs and false prophets' are not limited to the pulpits of the mega churches. They run rampant on the streets of America, in our political arena and on the internet forums. It never ceases to amaze me how many of the evangelicals and fundamentalists insist that they are so close to God that they can speak for him and any disagreement with their view is tantamount to scoffing at God. It would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

Actually it's only when you disagree with what Gods views are that we declare you to be scoffing God, you can believe what you want, say what you want, and think what you want, but when it goes against what God has stated in His bible, I think it fair that we point out what GOD SAID.

What I think is irrelevant to everybody except me, and those who agree.

I'll reiterate; although I don't understand how this can be such a difficult concept for you to follow. Your interpretation and understanding of any text does not equate to knowing a universal truth which would allow you to insist that you know the mind and will of a God. If every person who believes in God agreed that something deemed as scripture was, indeed, the literal and all encompassing word of a God; I would take that as face value that you all agreed it was what God said. It would mean something other than being your opinion.

Some of you think the Bible is by the hand of God. Some of you believe it to be inspired by God. Some of you think it was inspired. Others none of the aforementioned. You are not authorized to say GOD SAID. It simply means you said God said. Anything above that statement is delusion.

Simply because a few of you agree, doesn't mean you speak the words of God. It means there are a few of you that agree. Without universal agreement and understanding, your opinion is conjecture. Attempting to elevate yourself to the level of a god is kind of laughable sometimes. Others, it can be a little irritating. Especially when you make ridiculous statements and try to make it look as if those who don't agree with a narrow minded opinion are scoffing at a deity. You are not a deity. Not in my mind, anyway.

I give you the apostolic creed, which has the same context in all Christian churches, I selected the Lutheran verses as I think that is your largest congregation, and in any case they mirror the Catholic verses except the word Christian is inserted where Catholic was, however the general Protestant church have just made it 'catholic' with a small C to differentiate from the RCC.

No matter, there is ONLY one body of Christ in the world, just hidden amongst the various branches.

So to be a believer, one needs to accent to these verses:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,maker of heaven and earth.And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,and born of the virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died and was buried.He descended into hell.On the third day He rose again from the dead.He ascended into heavenand sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy Christian church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting. Amen.

The we go to the UNIVERSAL statement of faith held in common by ALL church denominations accepted as Christian:

Statement of Faith

What we believe about the Bible

We believe in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as verbally inspired of God, and inerrant in the original writings, and that they are the supreme and final authority in faith and life. (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:19-21; Acts 17:11; and Isaiah 8:20)

What we believe about God

We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT.

GOD THE FATHER - We believe in God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom and measureless in power. We rejoice that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men, that He hears and answers prayer, and that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ. (Matthew 5:48; Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3; Nehemiah 9:6; Hebrews 1:2-3; Psalm 103:19; Ephesians 1:11; 1 Kings 8:27; and Psalm 90:2)

THE SON - We believe in Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, sinless in His life, and making atonement for the sin of the world by His shed blood and death on the cross. We believe in His bodily resurrection, His ascension into heaven, and His high priestly intercession for His people. We believe in His personal, visible and triumphant return to the world according to His promise. (Isaiah 9:6; Matthew 1:18-25; John 1:14; Hebrews 10:9; John 1:29; 1 John 2:1-2; John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; and Acts 1:11)

THE HOLY SPIRIT - We believe in the Holy Spirit, who came forth from God to convict the world of sin, to convince the world of righteousness, and of judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify, and comfort those who believe in Jesus Christ. (John 15:26; John 16:8-11; Romans 6:3-6; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; and 1 Peter 1:1-3)

What we believe about People

MAN - We believe that man was created in the image of God, that he sinned and thereby incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God; and that all human beings are sinners by nature and by choice. (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:15-17; and Romans 3:10-12, 23)

SALVATION - We believe that, God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NIV) We believe that all who receive, by faith, Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are born again of the Holy Spirit and, therefore, become children of God. We believe that justification means that a person is declared righteous in the sight of God by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (John 1:12; Romans 3:21-26; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8-10)

STATUS IN ETERNITY - We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved, and the everlasting, conscious punishment of the lost. (Matthew 25:46)

HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY - We believe that every human being has responsibility to God alone in all matters of faith. (Romans 14:11-12)

What we believe about the Church

THE CHURCH - We believe in the Church -- a living, spiritual body in which Christ is the Head and of which all regenerated people are members. We believe that a visible church is a company of believers in Jesus Christ, buried with Him in baptism and associated for the purpose of leading believers toward maturity through worship, instruction, fellowship and evangelism. We believe that Christ has committed to the local church, the ordinances of Baptism and Communion to be observed until He comes, and that Christ has committed to the church the responsibility to proclaim to a lost world their need to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and to recognize Him has Lord. We believe that human betterment and social improvement are essential products of the Gospel. (Ephesians 1:22-23; Romans 6:3-5; Matthew 28:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26; and John 8:31-32)

ATTITUDE TOWARD CIVIL GOVERNMENT - We believe that each church is independent and autonomous, and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority; therefore, Church and State must be kept separate, as having different functions, each fulfilling its duties free from the dictation or patronage of the other. We also believe that it is the responsibility of the church (individually and corporately) to live in submission to the government, as long as that does not violate Scripture or conscience and to pray for those who are in authority over us. (1 Timothy 2:1-3; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13-14; Acts 5:29; Matthew 23:10; Romans 13:1-7)

There is no disagreement about these positions in the body of Christ.

You are entitled to be a minority of one if you wish, but you cannot insist that we bow to your wishes.

You must be joking. First, Christians are not the only that believe in one God. They are not the only that believe in a Supreme Being. Your post is arrogance, on that level alone.

Secondly, you honestly think that all Christians agree with your post? You couldn't possibly be that naive. Unless, of course, you live in a bubble. I could pick that thing apart, piece by piece, and point out how none of that is accepted throughout all of Christiandom.

Your opinion is simply that. An opinion. You don't carry the weight of a deity around in your pocket. You really should attempt to remember that.

I take the subject of God seriously. That is why I find exclusive stances offensive and ludicrous.If he exists, as I've said previously, no one has been given the right to speak for him. Only arrogance argues otherwise.

Something that is not universally agreed upon, or provable, is not fact. It's opinion. In as much as it is opinion, you really don't have proof enough to lay claim that you are speaking for a deity. But, you already knew that, when it comes to people claiming to speak for God who don't agree with you. I suppose the rules are different for some?

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You say believers can call belief fact, since they know it is only a belief but it is their belief. A person commenting from a secular stance sticks to using facts, because they don't have any belief. It is ok for the believer to pretend that belief is fact. Are the secularists supposed to pretend belief is fact? Should the believer believe fact is fact? Should they pretend fact is fact, since they are already pretending? Or should they pretend fact is belief since they are pretending belief is fact?

But, since aquasilver pointed out that beliefs can be presented as facts, without them being facts, do you really have your facts straight? Or just your beliefs straight? If you think your beliefs are straight and you think your facts are straight maybe we should create a couple of terms to alleviate confusion.

Facts straight would be labeled fs. Beliefs straight we could call bs. Then we'd all be on the same page.

We are discussing apples and oranges. The problem I have with the argument that you are right because you have a relationship with God is that many people believe themselves to have a relationship with God, but their opinions differ. Greatly. So, either God is sending mixed signals (which I would doubt) or many of you are thinking you have a relationship with God; when, what it boils down to, you are having a relationship with your ego.

As an agnostic, willing to give quarter to the fact that God may, indeed, exist; I must take into account what unifying thread connects the beliefs. Because I don't think a god would give mixed signals. And I believe a god would want all of humanity to have access to the same knowledge.What little we would know would be uniform. Evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity does not share that thread. That, in and of itself, makes your belief suspect.

Or there could just be many spiritual forces that set themselves up as gods?

Yes that would produce mixed signals, just as two people listening to different news channels would.

Our responsibility is to make sure we are listening to the right channel.

Seems to me that between the Bible and the Gospel message being spread worldwide, the message is clearly the same. John 3:16-19 is pretty uniform in ANY bible, even the squeaky ones.

I have many believing friends across the spectrum of Christianity, we have very little to worry about as differences in what we believe IN THE ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF THE FAITH, I posted the two main articles the other day, and with minor word variation every Christian church will agree those creeds and instructions.

I bet you and I are alike in at least one respect. I think we both need a 'bangs head against the wall' emoticon. Your previous post to me has been shown to be wrong, in another thread. There is no uniformity of thought within Christianity. I think, perhaps, the basic tenets of the Nicene Creed might be an acceptable thing that most (not all) Christians would agree to; minus any wording about the church; HOWEVER, Christians do not account for all believers and other believers have a right to believe they, too, have a relationship with God.

Which means that, if there is a God, he has attempted to speak to them also. Which leaves me to the same conclusion I already posted. Only the unifying threads across those beliefs could be seen as the thoughts that a god was attempting to pass on to humanity, assuming the god in question wasn't a foolish deity who only wanted you to be the butt of a cosmic and earthly joke.

1. God has a plan and shares it with His Creation, at that point just the Angels.2. Lucifer, a praise and worship leader (The Numero Uno honcho in P&W) thinks God is crazy to allow humans free will, and really pissed that God has put them higher up the tree than him. Lucifer is GIVEN earth and all that is on it, which is probably a whole heap of humanoids devoid of any spiritual life.3. God banishes Lucifer to a small chunk of floating planet called 'earth' and does the standard, "If anyone wants to go with him. feel free to leave now" speech that always follows a challenge.4. God, to keep things interesting, decides to put humanity, on earth, with a real live spirit. He puts them in a protected area and starts the plan rolling.5. Humanity listens to Lucifer and decides they know better than God also.6. God turns then out of the Garden and they have to contend with the rest of the humanoids placed there, as well as deal with their new boss, Lucifer.7. Lucifer, also having been told of Gods plan, sets up as many false gods and religions as he can, and a whole lot of humanity buy into the scam.8. God allowed humanity to flop around for a while, then He salvaged what was good and dumped the rest into the drink, and started again with the best that He had.9. God selects one race of people, the Jews, to reflect His voice on earth, Lucifer and most everyone else object to God choosing one race over them, and try to wipe them out all the time. The Jews, or some of them, request to be un chosen, but there is no deal.10. The Jews get given some rules to keep, simple stuff, but they really want to try and keep them, they take 10 rules and turn them into 633. God only gave them the rules to show that they were unable to keep them, but hey, they missed the point and elaborated.11. God sends Christ to solve the problem and show humanity that they cannot do it themselves. We kill Christ, according to the plan, Lucifer celebrates, then realised that Christ, being perfect and innocent, cannot be killed.12 Christ rises, defeats death and Lucifer, and the 'good news' starts to spread.

Why bother carrying on, you know the rest.

But it was Gods plan, and yes he did know Lucifer would rebel and yes that was part of the plan.

We are also part of the plan, and like all others, we choose God, or we choose Lucifer (the enemy) in one of his guises.

No. Your post pretty much explains that fantasy trumps reality. You've got so much bull built on top of the grounds of a simple belief you've apparently lost the ability to discuss the subject rationally. You seem to like it. I hope your fantasy world never topples. Because, unlike you, I believe there is no 'right belief'. All beliefs would be held in the same esteem by a God who hasn't been forthcoming with answers to help clear up the confusion as Christianity splinters and Islam grows. I'd explain, but you aren't about to listen.

No one decries God simply because they are offended by the way another person abuses a given text. I wish evangelicals and fundamentalists could learn this very simple point. It isn't your way or the highway. That's your ego showing.

That one pivotal question is not, nor has it ever been, a bone of contention. I think you are well aware of that. If that were the question, there would be one sect of Christianity. That isn't the focus of fundamental and evangelical arguments; and that is not the pivotal question for other belief structures.

MAT 16:13 ¶ Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"MAT 16:14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."MAT 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"MAT 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."MAT 16:17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Two things could happen that would make this exercise a little more realistic, First, I would love to hear about a large group of gays dining at the same IHOP when they got there and 2, they need to make sure the kids spend some time in the hot, humid kitchen. That way they can experience the International Hell of Persecution that most of their fellow worshipers will be checking into.

Jesus died a peaceful and natural death in Kashmir, India. He is not to come again literally and physically. Symbolic advent of Jesus has already happened with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah and the peaceful rapture has already taken place. The children and the adults should be given this information.

Hello John. I have pretty much abandoned Hub Pages. I finally got tired of having hubs deleted for no apparent reason. I put too much time into this to sit back and have it deleted with out a justifiable reason. I also grew tired of having the same old arguments with the same old people day in and day out. My intake of Tums has dropped significantly since I left here, lol. Good to see you as well my friend.

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