[Discussion] Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread <3

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Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

While the Kyuubi has been there since the beginning of the story, being a huge power, granted, it's not wrong for Naruto to finally use its powers that has been expected since chapter 1... BUT... Oh dear G.. It's so freaking lame now!

Naruto was pretty badass when he fought Pain, heck even the Kyuubi part was awesome in that fight, because it was balanced.

I could write a huge post as well as many others has done, but I'll make my opinion short...

This manga has gone downhill ever since Naruto learned to use the Kyuubi's powers.
Especially the war in itself was simple, boring, overall predictable, and only one important character died to make it feel like a war. Yet it still felt like a sacrifice purely in the attempth to make a sacrifice to make the war feel real, like "Oh I better kill someone important at this late point in the war to make this war feel real" - Smell of Fake!

I don't like simple story writing, and ever since Naruto got the Kyuubi and the War started, the story of Naruto has dropped to a whole new low level, that I simply can't accept.

The only reason I continue to read is because I want to see how it ends, and I suppose, a tiny hope that Kishi can improve the story again, but I doubt it.
Once it has fallen, it has fallen, it'll take 10 times the work to get it back on its feet again, and I don't think Kishi can do that.
I loved this manga early on, especially part 1 and part 2 was interesting to begin with, especially 3 battles gave hope for an epic manga future, Jiraiya vs. Pain, Naruto vs. Pain and Sasuke vs. Itachi. Yet the story failed epicly after those 3 battles instead, everything is Quantity rather than Quality.

Give back Quality battles Kishi.

Just my opinion, I don't clame any facts, so please leave it at that ^^

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

The French Revolution ended up killing numerous people who had been on their own side by their own hands.

Oh it was a messy civil war, but it wasn't a genocide.

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That is breaking the cycle according to the series. The entire point is getting said people to forgive those responsible for the death of their comrades, thereby removing any reason for them to want revenge. And the Alliance attacking Madara and Obito isn't promoting anything. There's no cycle if there's nobody would would want to avenge their deaths, and there isn't anybody who cares about Madara or Obito. That's a moot issue, seeing as Naruto was also given the charge to save Sasuke and yet he had nothing to do with it. And it was outright stated that the Uchiha's revolted due to Danzo and the council discriminating against them.

And Gaara didn't do that. There was no forgiveness. They didn't have a group moment of zen they just supressed their distrusts and agreed to fight a common foe. That isn't breaking the cycle. Just because some tree isn't going to stab you in the middle of the night in revenge doesn't mean the Shinobi Alliance is free of the cycle of hate. It will still be there when they attack the next village. People are seeing their friends die, even Naruto is trying to control his emotions after Neji died. The cycle of hate is present in this war even if one side isn't human.

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Pretty sure that would be considered a war, since normally people don't have one on one fights in wars. Naruto hasn't offered anything we weren't already getting, and less then what we had been promised.

A battle between small villages, maybe, but not a war. Where was the marine invasion in Bleach? Where were the covert assasinations happening in One Piece? There may have been a scout or two who got killed in FMA but this series has several different encounters that the others clearly lacked.

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The issue is very much that, since we were told what the duck should look like and yet this "duck" we got looks nothing like that.

It was a duck, you just weren't impressed by it. It's still a duck, regardless.

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No, I'm applying the rules given for wars in the series to judge said war. The series have given us several examples of characters being changed straight away during their war experience. A panel of crying and then going right back to how they were is not being impacted. And you mention the 60,000 deaths, yet not a single character has mentioned or reacted to any of those deaths. Death doesn't have an impact if it's basically ignored by the characters and leads to no evolving. And again you're making random declarations about what I'm expected despite me never claiming such. What I was expecting was declarations and resolutions to ensure peace by any means (Itachi), to change the system so there wouldn't be any more deaths (Yahiko, Nagato), and to protect one's remaining comrades (Mifune, Kakashi). These aren't random and unreasonable preconditions that were shown in a drawn out situation, these are preconditions that had actually been shown before occurring straight away upon those characters experiencing the horrors of war.

The rules for a protracted war, not one that is as accelerated as this one is. The only ones who've experienced "war' are the Rain children and they're all dead. The Alliance most certainly did react to their deaths. The first moment the 7 swordsmen almost broke the ranks of the third division they were frozen until Gai bolstered the ranks with some dialogue. You also seem to forget that they're professional shinobi, not kids from the farms of the countryside. They have been fighting for years and you're complaining that they don't break ranks after the first shinobi falls? Everyone realizes the importance of this fight and that if they lose it's over for the entire world. Naruto is naively trying to prevent people from dying (but it's war, people die), plus Sakura is healing as many as she can. Lastly, Hinata and Neji did sacrifice themselves for others. How many more acts of your preconditions do you need to be satisfied. They've all been accomplished by Kishi.

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That's the way it works according to the series. That's exactly what happen with Zabuza and Gaara. And what? Why would Orochimaru teaming up with Suna imply the above, when there was no differences to put aside between Oto and Suna. And arguing the logical reason why there wouldn't be peace really doesn't change what has been said, since it applies to Naruto too. Logically, any peace achieved isn't gonna last more then a few generations after his death.

Because the exact thing happened there. The Sand and Sound joined forces to destroy a common threat, the Leaf. Gaara does the exact same thing. He convinces the various armies to fight against Madara, the guy who's threatening global genjutsu lobotomy. So any time two villages join forces it breaks the cycle of hate? No, it doesn't. It takes something more that we haven't seen yet. The success of this series depends on how Kishi decides to proceed.

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By that logic, Konoha's power is insufficient since it was incapable of preventing a war right in it's own border. The fact remains that they were shown equal participants in those wars and quite a few powerful ninjas (Hanzo, Kakuzu, Nagato, Konan, and Hidan) came from minor villages.

Being invaded by a foreign power in a surprise attack then defeating them is different than having 2 foreign countries fighting a war of proxy in your own county like it was in the Rain village. The Leaf not only defended itself, it won the battle/war. The Rain village got destrpyed as two foreign powers trounced Nagato's country in their own feud. The Leaf wasn't powerless to stop the attacks, the Rain village was. They couldn't mount a sustained attack against the big 5 if they tried.

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Not in-series history, thought their personal histories extend far before Aizen's arrival. You couldn't remove the Espada without radically changing the whole story. The majority of the Espada were very essential to the story. The only one who could be taken out without an effect on the overall plot was Zommari. It's not a constraint when he was the one who came up with it, nor when he had them sealed so easily that it became moot. Again, if he could change the amount of ninjas in the major villages, he could have done the same with the minor villages without problem. Heck, if he was willing to have half of Akatsuki come from the minor villages, then there's no reason he couldn't have made more come from them.

You reduce the number of fights but you don't impact the story at all. Ichigo could still reach Orihime without the presence of the Espada. They aren't essential.

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Doesn't change the main point, that there's only been one more mention of Madara then Izuna. There isn't a statue of Tobirama either, yet his strength and inclusion isn't in question, now is it. Arguing that having it be Izuna would make a plothole is moot when Obito's entire situation created a far greater plothole then Izuna being alive would have. The same reason Madara waited 50+ years and Obito waited 15 years, just because. How exactly is Izuna plotting and setting things up for 60+ years due to his admittedly injured body less practical then Madara doing the same and then suddenly lucking onto a random Uchiha to continue said waiting before starting an unneeded war? At least with Izuna there would be an explanation as to why Tobi relied on a single technique and stayed hidden away, instead of the just because explanation we get with Obito.

Actually, there is a statue of Tobirama in the Village. He was established into the storyline on many occasions, not in passing as a footnote onto how Madara got his eyes. Does the Kyuubi say you have the eyes of Izuna? No. Does Itachi say his accomplice has the power of Izuna Uchiha? No. You're counting references and giving them equal weight when the reality is they have completely different levels of meaning. Izuna is a worse plothole because there is no plausible way a 90-year old ninja can spar with everyone. Madara tries to last that long ans he coudln't so he had to give his charge to Obito. That's the problem with your alternative scenario. Some guy in a walker is going to be doing cartwheels and complex maneuvers just because you don't like Tobi being Obito. Reality can only be stretched so far.

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Your math is off. Hashirama would be in his 70's-80's, since Konoha was only founded 60 years ago. Izuna was in his teens when he died, meaning he would be in his 60's-70's now. And age is a moot argument, since as previous mentioned, there are several examples of elderly ninjas fully capable of fighting. Onoki can walk, and his "health issues" have only been used for comedy. And seeing as both Chiyo and Danzo ran around without issue, there ould ahve been no retcon.

You're saying Mito and Tsunade's mom had kids at the age of 10? That's not biologically possible. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say 20 each. That puts Hashirama in the 90's along with Izuna. People in the '70's capable of fighting, yes, but they are in decline. Not people in their 90's. It's too far, and too much of a stretch.

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And no, Obito being Tobi wasn't chronologically possible. It screwed up the timeline of events that we had been given involving the Ame orphans and the various wars.

Not at all. All you need is for Jiaraya to teach Minato who may have been trained before the Ame orphans. we don't know. Then give some time for Minato to teach Obito. That could easily take place before Yahiko is killed.

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No you don't. If there's no explanation for why Madara waited as long as he did or why Obito waited so long, then there doesn't need to be an explanation as to why Izuna waited so long. And Obito's "link" to Kakashi doesn't explain at all why he decided to ignore Kakashi and wait 15 years to strike. Your argument about Izuna having to provide something neither Madara nor Obito have provided makes no sense. And Kishi gave us the aforementioned elderly ninjas to show that it would have been possible, along with granting Tobi an excuse for being weaken.

Yes you do. You're trying to have a feud being realized 60+ years after the fact. It is reasonable to make an elite organization of S-class criminals from scratch in 14-16 years. It is unreasonable to have someone sit around for 45+ years doing nothing then starting up an organization over the next 14-16 years. Why the war now? Why not 50 years ago? There's nothing special about the conditions now, that weren't there 60 years ago. So why wait 50 years to do something? It makes no sense. Having Madara pass the torch of hatred to Obtio to continue this feus is cheesy, but doable. Having Izuna sit on his ass for 50 years then start to do something that cumulates in a battle when he's 90 years old is just stupid.

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Kakashi killed her because Rin jumped in front of his attack in an act of suicide. And what previous grievance? As far as we know, Kiri doesn't have any grievance against Konoha. It was a simple act of war. Obito's actions aren't gonna alter anything, beyond granting him complete control of the world, which doesn't change anything for everyone else.

And why the self-sacrifice? Because Kakashi was in denial that Rin was doomed. What was the root cause of Rin's death. Yeah, Kakashi killed her, but why. Because Rin was trapped in a plot to destroy Konoha. Were the Mist at Konoha at war? Not that we know of. So Rin was killed by one of the many plots of the system. These plots all emenate from the repetive cycke of hate that plagues the shinobi system.

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In-story, Tobi had been controlling the entire thing from the shadows since the beginning. And no, the issues is greater then you claim. Obito's retcon have the Ame orphans still being teens during the Third War, meaning the end of the Second War and their training with Jiraiya wasn't that long ago. Not to mention that it now puts Minato's training before theirs. It also extended the Third War longer, since it was still going on when the Ame orphans were in their early adulthood and the situation with Danzo happen. Plus it makes it so that the sannins didn't become the "Sannins" til late in their life. And Rin being made into the Sanbi Jinchuuriki means that Yagura had already been killed, which makes the whole situation with who was controlling him questionable again. Finally, it screws up Sasori and Suna's history, since we were given exact ages and years involving his childhood. Things have just become a bigger mess then before.

The manga doesn't tell when Obito meets the Rain orphans, only that it happend before Yahiko dies.. They could be in their twenties in those panels. No dates were given. Minato's training could have been given before the Ame orphans. Once again the manga doesn't tell us when that happens. Dates weren't given as to when the Sannin got their titles, only that they had a battle with Hanzou. We know these events happens but we don't know when. Yet eveyone claims plothole does so because they think they know, when the truth of the matter is that we don't know exactly when these things happened. There's enough uncertainty in so many events that invocation of plothole is almost impossible to prove.

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Don't see how. You're gonna have to show where Kishi showed Kakashi still being hung up on the past after his talk with his dad, because nothing of the sort was shown til he retcon everything to fit Obito in.

It happened 3-4 chapters ago. If Kakashi was over it, he wouldn't be worried about preserving the memory of the earlier Obito. Talk with dear old Dad didn't change him. He needed this encounter to be able to move on, he clearly hasn't.

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

Originally Posted by Brill

Oh it was a messy civil war, but it wasn't a genocide.

No, the point is that it was a genocide, a chaotic one at that.

Originally Posted by Brill

And Gaara didn't do that. There was no forgiveness. They didn't have a group moment of zen they just supressed their distrusts and agreed to fight a common foe. That isn't breaking the cycle. Just because some tree isn't going to stab you in the middle of the night in revenge doesn't mean the Shinobi Alliance is free of the cycle of hate. It will still be there when they attack the next village. People are seeing their friends die, even Naruto is trying to control his emotions after Neji died. The cycle of hate is present in this war even if one side isn't human.

Gaara did do that. We saw the ninjas forgiving each other for what had previously been done. And again, that is breaking the cycle. That's all Naruto has ever done and the series made it plain that he was breaking the cycle. Once that's done, that cycle of hatred ends. It's not gonna be there anymore. Now a new one would be created if another attack or war began, but that's completely separate from this issue. And you realize that the cycle of hatred is a continuous cycle of getting revenge, right? There isn't a cycle here since there's no one who's gonna be wanting revenge for Madara and Obito's death.

Originally Posted by Brill

A battle between small villages, maybe, but not a war. Where was the marine invasion in Bleach? Where were the covert assasinations happening in One Piece? There may have been a scout or two who got killed in FMA but this series has several different encounters that the others clearly lacked.

No, definitely a war. Things like "marine invasions" or "assassinations" don't make a war. Don't even understand how one would expect a marine invasion in a land-lock war. The point is, that they were just more fitting to examples of war, they were more fitting to examples of wars we've gotten in this series itself.

Originally Posted by Brill

It was a duck, you just weren't impressed by it. It's still a duck, regardless.

My impression with it isn't the reason it's not a duck. It's not a duck because it's just not a duck.

Originally Posted by Brill

The rules for a protracted war, not one that is as accelerated as this one is. The only ones who've experienced "war' are the Rain children and they're all dead. The Alliance most certainly did react to their deaths. The first moment the 7 swordsmen almost broke the ranks of the third division they were frozen until Gai bolstered the ranks with some dialogue. You also seem to forget that they're professional shinobi, not kids from the farms of the countryside. They have been fighting for years and you're complaining that they don't break ranks after the first shinobi falls? Everyone realizes the importance of this fight and that if they lose it's over for the entire world. Naruto is naively trying to prevent people from dying (but it's war, people die), plus Sakura is healing as many as she can. Lastly, Hinata and Neji did sacrifice themselves for others. How many more acts of your preconditions do you need to be satisfied. They've all been accomplished by Kishi.

None of the examples I gave were of a protracted response. It was an instantaneous response to their situation. And more then the Ame orphans experience war. Gai's group reacting to the appearance of the Seven Swordsmen is not reacting to the seemingly massive number of deaths created. When did I ever claim something like them breaking rank or such? I outright stated what I was expecting was them to evolve for their experiences, like we saw in past wars within this series. Naruto has always been naive, Sakura has always healed those who needed it, and both Hinata and Neji have been shown willing to sacrifice themselves for others. Exactly what has changed? The point is that Kishi hasn't fulfilled any of the preconditions he himself set up.

Originally Posted by Brill

Because the exact thing happened there. The Sand and Sound joined forces to destroy a common threat, the Leaf. Gaara does the exact same thing. He convinces the various armies to fight against Madara, the guy who's threatening global genjutsu lobotomy. So any time two villages join forces it breaks the cycle of hate? No, it doesn't. It takes something more that we haven't seen yet. The success of this series depends on how Kishi decides to proceed.

Suna and Oto never put aside any differences though. There was never any history between Suna and Oto in the way that there's history between the actual villages. Your comparing apples to oranges. And Gaara did more then simply convince them to put aside their differences, he convince them to end their hatred of one another, thus the reason people were apologizing and Gaara's actions got praised. I'm not sure why you're expecting more then what has already been established.

Originally Posted by Brill

Being invaded by a foreign power in a surprise attack then defeating them is different than having 2 foreign countries fighting a war of proxy in your own county like it was in the Rain village. The Leaf not only defended itself, it won the battle/war. The Rain village got destrpyed as two foreign powers trounced Nagato's country in their own feud. The Leaf wasn't powerless to stop the attacks, the Rain village was. They couldn't mount a sustained attack against the big 5 if they tried.

Except it wasn't a surprise attack. Konoha knew ahead of time that at least Oto was gonna attack. Orochimaru outright told them that during the second stage of the Chuunin exam, which was why Konoha had their forces already prepared before the attack happen. Konoha only won because Gaara and later Orochimaru retreated. So the point is still the same. And the wars in Ame weren't proxy wars. As mentioned before, Ame itself was fighting in those same wars. Considering just a faction of Ame ninjas were enough to worry Danzo enough to join forces with Hanzou, saying they couldn't have sustained an attack with the other minor villages is silly. Especially since the Zetsu clones weren't exactly sustaining anything all that much.

Originally Posted by Brill

You reduce the number of fights but you don't impact the story at all. Ichigo could still reach Orihime without the presence of the Espada. They aren't essential.

As mentioned, the only one who could have been removed without impacting the storyline was Zommari. And their purpose were to prevent Ichigo from reaching Orihime. Removing them so he could easily reach her would defeat the entire purpose. They were essential in setting up the various power-ups everyone got and limiting things til the final battle between Ichigo and Aizen.

Originally Posted by Brill

Actually, there is a statue of Tobirama in the Village. He was established into the storyline on many occasions, not in passing as a footnote onto how Madara got his eyes. Does the Kyuubi say you have the eyes of Izuna? No. Does Itachi say his accomplice has the power of Izuna Uchiha? No. You're counting references and giving them equal weight when the reality is they have completely different levels of meaning. Izuna is a worse plothole because there is no plausible way a 90-year old ninja can spar with everyone. Madara tries to last that long ans he coudln't so he had to give his charge to Obito. That's the problem with your alternative scenario. Some guy in a walker is going to be doing cartwheels and complex maneuvers just because you don't like Tobi being Obito. Reality can only be stretched so far.

There isn't a statue at VotE, which was what you complained about. And technically, he doesn't have a statue. Tobirama got established into the storyline once, at the same time with as Hashirama. And you're ignoring that they didn't become of major importance til they were actually shown. Why do you keep saying he would be 90? He clearly wouldn't be that old given that as mentioned, only 60 years had pass since Konoha was formed, right after his death. And he wasn't more then 20 at that time. Madara was repeatedly stated to have been injured due to his fight with Hashirama, so that's a moot point. There isn't any problem when we have seen similarly old ninjas like Danzo and Onoki provide plenty of challenge. The real problem here is that you're completely ignoring that "Tobi" was never an impressive fighter and solely relied upon his phasing ability to win. So the scenario wouldn't be any different: a 60-70 year old Izuna being able to fight solely because he could phase through attacks. Far less of a plothole then what we actually got.

Originally Posted by Brill

You're saying Mito and Tsunade's mom had kids at the age of 10? That's not biologically possible. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say 20 each. That puts Hashirama in the 90's along with Izuna. People in the '70's capable of fighting, yes, but they are in decline. Not people in their 90's. It's too far, and too much of a stretch.

What? Where did you get ten from? Mito was just as old as Hashirama from what we saw, and given that Hashirama died soon after the fight with Madara, Tsunade's mother must have already been born. And I already acknowledged that Madara and Hashirama were likely in their 20's, putting Tobirama and Izuna in their late teens. Add sixty years, and at most you got him in his 70-80's. Izuna didn't appear any older then Onoki did at that time, or much older then Sarutobi. Them being in decline has never prove to be an issue except in stamina, which is moot when we're talking about a character who didn't use any ninjutsus but one.

Originally Posted by Brill

Not at all. All you need is for Jiaraya to teach Minato who may have been trained before the Ame orphans. we don't know. Then give some time for Minato to teach Obito. That could easily take place before Yahiko is killed.

That really wouldn't fix things. Minato being trained first isn't that much of a problem even if it screws up the whole Child of Prophecy issue, but that doesn't solve any of the timeline issues between the world wars, and thus the events involved in them.

Originally Posted by Brill

Yes you do. You're trying to have a feud being realized 60+ years after the fact. It is reasonable to make an elite organization of S-class criminals from scratch in 14-16 years. It is unreasonable to have someone sit around for 45+ years doing nothing then starting up an organization over the next 14-16 years. Why the war now? Why not 50 years ago? There's nothing special about the conditions now, that weren't there 60 years ago. So why wait 50 years to do something? It makes no sense. Having Madara pass the torch of hatred to Obtio to continue this feus is cheesy, but doable. Having Izuna sit on his ass for 50 years then start to do something that cumulates in a battle when he's 90 years old is just stupid.

I'm not trying to have anything, that's exactly what's going on right now. Akatsuki has been active for 10-some years, meaning Obito still sat around and did nothing for most of the time. If Madara and Obito can sit around and wait, why can't Izuna? Why is Izuna faulted for it and not them? And it makes much more sense for Izuna then them to have to wait til Nagato has matured and he's gathered enough missingnin to pose a threat, instead of Madara waiting around and then Obito going on to do his own thing that wasn't even originally planned. Already spoke about his age.

Originally Posted by Brill

And why the self-sacrifice? Because Kakashi was in denial that Rin was doomed. What was the root cause of Rin's death. Yeah, Kakashi killed her, but why. Because Rin was trapped in a plot to destroy Konoha. Were the Mist at Konoha at war? Not that we know of. So Rin was killed by one of the many plots of the system. These plots all emenate from the repetive cycke of hate that plagues the shinobi system.

But none of that has to do with the cycle of hatred, which as previous mentioned, is one side taking revenge on another side's action, and it becoming a cycle. What you're talking about is the ninja system itself, which Obito doesn't give a damn about by his own admission.

Originally Posted by Brill

The manga doesn't tell when Obito meets the Rain orphans, only that it happend before Yahiko dies.. They could be in their twenties in those panels. No dates were given. Minato's training could have been given before the Ame orphans. Once again the manga doesn't tell us when that happens. Dates weren't given as to when the Sannin got their titles, only that they had a battle with Hanzou. We know these events happens but we don't know when. Yet eveyone claims plothole does so because they think they know, when the truth of the matter is that we don't know exactly when these things happened. There's enough uncertainty in so many events that invocation of plothole is almost impossible to prove.

The series does tell us. It happen during the end of the Third World War, before Naruto was born. We saw the Ame Orphans in their 20's. They were still children when they met Obito. The Sannins got their title during the Second World War, near the end of it according to Hanzou. And we were given dates for the World Wars via Sasori, who was stated to have been five during the Second World War when his parents died, and he left Suna at the age of 15 after kidnapping the Sandaime Kazekage, which lead to Suna getting involved in the Third World War. That had been 20 years ago at the start of Part Two.

Originally Posted by Brill

It happened 3-4 chapters ago. If Kakashi was over it, he wouldn't be worried about preserving the memory of the earlier Obito. Talk with dear old Dad didn't change him. He needed this encounter to be able to move on, he clearly hasn't.

Flawed argument. This whole discussion was about there being no need for him to move on before the retcon, you can't apply things that were made for the retcon in an argument for it being necessary.

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

Though it's a bit late but:

ON topic: War could have been better if it wasn't for fan services provided in that arc and winding it up in a hurry,
Also instead of relying on a heavenly aid of Kabuto's ET army, Tobi should have some thing (Nuke level) up in his sleeve.
Also if it could turned in a three way battle i.e. Alliance VS Obito Vs Kabuto, that would have been great.

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

Originally Posted by Dark blood

Though it's a bit late but:

ON topic: War could have been better if it wasn't for fan services provided in that arc and winding it up in a hurry,
Also instead of relying on a heavenly aid of Kabuto's ET army, Tobi should have some thing (Nuke level) up in his sleeve.
Also if it could turned in a three way battle i.e. Alliance VS Obito Vs Kabuto, that would have been great.

Or just if it were some manipulated villages against each other, like Konoha and Suna vs the other 3 ninja villages, that would have been great.

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

I'm so close to giving up on this, especially now that Tobi is the "pure evil". I call bullshit. As long as Madaras trick isn't the sage of 6 paths then I might not be giving up but it's right there now where I'm just about to go "fuck this"

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

No, the point is that it was a genocide, a chaotic one at that.

No, it wasn't. The French revolution was a political conflict not ethnic. It was a revolution not a genocide. Same is true for the Naruto, the conflict is ideological not ethnic.

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Gaara did do that. We saw the ninjas forgiving each other for what had previously been done. And again, that is breaking the cycle. That's all Naruto has ever done and the series made it plain that he was breaking the cycle. Once that's done, that cycle of hatred ends. It's not gonna be there anymore. Now a new one would be created if another attack or war began, but that's completely separate from this issue. And you realize that the cycle of hatred is a continuous cycle of getting revenge, right? There isn't a cycle here since there's no one who's gonna be wanting revenge for Madara and Obito's death.

Because Kishi had to show some distrust so the Alliance is more than a paper tiger when it formed. It doesn't mean the cycle was broken, especially when Kishi has Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato all state that Naruto will be the one to do it. Gaara does manage to form an alliance, but that doesn't mean the cycle of hate was broken. The Sand and Leaf formed an alliance and the cycle of hate was still present. Shikamaru said as much if Ino or Choji died they would go off in revenge. So even if you have an alliance formed, the cycle of hatred still persists. Gaara made a big alliance but that doesn't break the cycle of hate from the individual members within that alliance.

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No, definitely a war. Things like "marine invasions" or "assassinations" don't make a war. Don't even understand how one would expect a marine invasion in a land-lock war. The point is, that they were just more fitting to examples of war, they were more fitting to examples of wars we've gotten in this series itself.

No, they're not. War is more than just a battle royale which is what most shounen wars are. Wars has evolved into many types on armed manuevers and actions on a big scale. You deploy forces, setup lines of defense. penetrate enemy lines, commando attacks, commit reinfforcements, even setup triage. It's more than 10-20 people duking it out until there is one winner. That's not a war, that's a battle royale.

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My impression with it isn't the reason it's not a duck. It's not a duck because it's just not a duck.

But it is a duck. You just don't like the duck. That's the issue here.

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None of the examples I gave were of a protracted response. It was an instantaneous response to their situation. And more then the Ame orphans experience war. Gai's group reacting to the appearance of the Seven Swordsmen is not reacting to the seemingly massive number of deaths created. When did I ever claim something like them breaking rank or such? I outright stated what I was expecting was them to evolve for their experiences, like we saw in past wars within this series. Naruto has always been naive, Sakura has always healed those who needed it, and both Hinata and Neji have been shown willing to sacrifice themselves for others. Exactly what has changed? The point is that Kishi hasn't fulfilled any of the preconditions he himself set up.

Evolution is fine, but it happens to people afterwards, not as the events are happening to them. After the war concludes several people will change most likely. But we aren't there yet. The war is still happening and you're not happy that people aren't different yet. It's been 24-36 hours since the war began, you have to give the character some time to process what's happened to them. No one changes that quickly.

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Suna and Oto never put aside any differences though. There was never any history between Suna and Oto in the way that there's history between the actual villages. Your comparing apples to oranges. And Gaara did more then simply convince them to put aside their differences, he convince them to end their hatred of one another, thus the reason people were apologizing and Gaara's actions got praised. I'm not sure why you're expecting more then what has already been established.

We don't know the history between the Sand and Sound, but they did unite against a common foe. The same thing happens with the Shinobi alliance. They formed an alliance against a common foe, but it both cases the cycle of hate was not broken. Just because they fight united doesn't mean they're free of the cycle of hate.

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Except it wasn't a surprise attack. Konoha knew ahead of time that at least Oto was gonna attack. Orochimaru outright told them that during the second stage of the Chuunin exam, which was why Konoha had their forces already prepared before the attack happen. Konoha only won because Gaara and later Orochimaru retreated. So the point is still the same. And the wars in Ame weren't proxy wars. As mentioned before, Ame itself was fighting in those same wars. Considering just a faction of Ame ninjas were enough to worry Danzo enough to join forces with Hanzou, saying they couldn't have sustained an attack with the other minor villages is silly. Especially since the Zetsu clones weren't exactly sustaining anything all that much.

Yeah, Orochimaru was involved, but Konoha didn't know where and they didn't know when. They didn't know that the Sand was also involved and had penetrated their borders already. Konoha routed the combined might of both villages without the intervention of Gaara. Just shows how desparate the plan was to begin with. They couldn't win the conventional way they needed a bijuu to destroy the village in order to win. That's how powerful Konoha was. Yes the Ame was fighitng in those wars, and lost. The country was ravaged by the wars happening around them. Hanzou even needed help from the Leaf to supress its own civil war, just showing how fractured and poweless a nation it truly was. It can't take care of itself let alone take on the Big 5 even with assistance.

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As mentioned, the only one who could have been removed without impacting the storyline was Zommari. And their purpose were to prevent Ichigo from reaching Orihime. Removing them so he could easily reach her would defeat the entire purpose. They were essential in setting up the various power-ups everyone got and limiting things til the final battle between Ichigo and Aizen.

Except the issue here is plot and not storyline. They weren't eseential to the plot. Whether Ichigo gets to Orihime in 1 battle or 4 doesn't prevent Aizen from going to Karakura town to destroy the Soul Society. That's why they're pointless. Flashy, but pointless.

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There isn't a statue at VotE, which was what you complained about. And technically, he doesn't have a statue. Tobirama got established into the storyline once, at the same time with as Hashirama. And you're ignoring that they didn't become of major importance til they were actually shown. Why do you keep saying he would be 90? He clearly wouldn't be that old given that as mentioned, only 60 years had pass since Konoha was formed, right after his death. And he wasn't more then 20 at that time. Madara was repeatedly stated to have been injured due to his fight with Hashirama, so that's a moot point. There isn't any problem when we have seen similarly old ninjas like Danzo and Onoki provide plenty of challenge. The real problem here is that you're completely ignoring that "Tobi" was never an impressive fighter and solely relied upon his phasing ability to win. So the scenario wouldn't be any different: a 60-70 year old Izuna being able to fight solely because he could phase through attacks. Far less of a plothole then what we actually got.

He was established three times. Once during the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi, once when the brothers decided to make Sarutobi the 3rd Hokage, and the battle that claimed Tobriama's life. He was actually placed into the story. Was izuna? No, not until after Tobi's unveiling and we went into the flashback on the founding of the village. If this flashback was incorporated into the storyline before Tobi's unveiling Izuna could be a candidate rather than a footnote.

However, that doesn't change the fact that's Izuna's over 90. How old were Hashirama and Madara when the village was founded assuming it was founded 60 years ago (even this is debatable)? 10? That would make Izuna 70 now. 20? That would make Izuna 80 now. 30? that would make Izuna 90 in the present time line. We don't know their ages when the village was founded. The only person's age we DO know is Tsunade. She's in her 50's in the present time. Assuming both Tsunade's mom and Mito had their children at 20, that would put Mito at 90 in the current time line. That would put Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in their early 90's and that's not considering both women having their kids later in life or Tsunade being in her upper '50's. Izuna could easily be 100 in the present time line.

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What? Where did you get ten from? Mito was just as old as Hashirama from what we saw, and given that Hashirama died soon after the fight with Madara, Tsunade's mother must have already been born. And I already acknowledged that Madara and Hashirama were likely in their 20's, putting Tobirama and Izuna in their late teens. Add sixty years, and at most you got him in his 70-80's. Izuna didn't appear any older then Onoki did at that time, or much older then Sarutobi. Them being in decline has never prove to be an issue except in stamina, which is moot when we're talking about a character who didn't use any ninjutsus but one.

See above. If Tsunade were Hashirama's daughter, you'd be in the right time frame. Unfortunately, she's his granddaughter. That puts Hashirama well into his 30's when the village was founded. Same with Izuna, he's only a few years younger than Madara. Saying Onoki and Izuna are the same age is ridiculous. We have no idea how old Onoki is, we know that Onoki knew Madara but was he a genin, or chuunin, or jounin when he did? It's unclear. Not to mention the one blatant fact about Izuna. if Tobi was Izuna, he wouldn't have black hair, it'd be white like Onoki's. Izuna is likely older than Onoki his hair'd be whiter not black like Tobi's. It's just not physically possible to make Izuna Tobi. It's a worse retcon than Obito.

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That really wouldn't fix things. Minato being trained first isn't that much of a problem even if it screws up the whole Child of Prophecy issue, but that doesn't solve any of the timeline issues between the world wars, and thus the events involved in them.

Which have absolutely nothing to do with Tobi being Obito. It doesn't prevent Obito from not meeting Yahiko before he dies. That is the only real condition and there's nothing to refute that.

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I'm not trying to have anything, that's exactly what's going on right now. Akatsuki has been active for 10-some years, meaning Obito still sat around and did nothing for most of the time. If Madara and Obito can sit around and wait, why can't Izuna? Why is Izuna faulted for it and not them? And it makes much more sense for Izuna then them to have to wait til Nagato has matured and he's gathered enough missingnin to pose a threat, instead of Madara waiting around and then Obito going on to do his own thing that wasn't even originally planned. Already spoke about his age.

Because you're trying to provide an alternative scenario for being Tobi instead of what Kishi has written. Having Obito form an organziation in 15 years is believablle. Having Izuna form one 50 years after doing nothing is not. Haivng Madara exisitng in a pathetic state waiting for Obito to come along to enact his revenge is a hell of a lot better than having his brother trying to do something 60 years later well into his 90's.

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But none of that has to do with the cycle of hatred, which as previous mentioned, is one side taking revenge on another side's action, and it becoming a cycle. What you're talking about is the ninja system itself, which Obito doesn't give a damn about by his own admission.

That's right and the cycle of hate never stops. So the fighting continues for generations. The fighting is still continuuing by villages instead of roaming nomads. The shinobi system is the weapon, the cycle of hate is pulling the trigger. So Rin a victim of the cycle of hate.

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The series does tell us. It happen during the end of the Third World War, before Naruto was born. We saw the Ame Orphans in their 20's. They were still children when they met Obito. The Sannins got their title during the Second World War, near the end of it according to Hanzou. And we were given dates for the World Wars via Sasori, who was stated to have been five during the Second World War when his parents died, and he left Suna at the age of 15 after kidnapping the Sandaime Kazekage, which lead to Suna getting involved in the Third World War. That had been 20 years ago at the start of Part Two.

Yet no date was given when Obito meets Yahiko. You assume they're teenagers by their looks in big bulky cloaks but you don't know when they met. That's your assumption, they could easily be in their 20's when they met Obito. There is no plothole, just the desire for Tobi not being Oibto.

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Flawed argument. This whole discussion was about there being no need for him to move on before the retcon, you can't apply things that were made for the retcon in an argument for it being necessary.

This isn't a retcom. You assumed that the issue was resolved when in fact it wasn't. If there was a scene where Kakashi walks past the memorial stone and doesn't stop after his talk with his father, then you could say he moved on. But he hasn't. The latest chapters state it. There is no retcon because it didn't happen the way you envisioned it.

Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

Originally Posted by Brill

No, it wasn't. The French revolution was a political conflict not ethnic. It was a revolution not a genocide. Same is true for the Naruto, the conflict is ideological not ethnic.

Yeah it was, it resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands by a select group. It being political doesn't change that. Genocides aren't solely about ethnics.

Originally Posted by Brill

Because Kishi had to show some distrust so the Alliance is more than a paper tiger when it formed. It doesn't mean the cycle was broken, especially when Kishi has Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato all state that Naruto will be the one to do it. Gaara does manage to form an alliance, but that doesn't mean the cycle of hate was broken. The Sand and Leaf formed an alliance and the cycle of hate was still present. Shikamaru said as much if Ino or Choji died they would go off in revenge. So even if you have an alliance formed, the cycle of hatred still persists. Gaara made a big alliance but that doesn't break the cycle of hate from the individual members within that alliance.

And again, Naruto was also suppose to change Sasuke, yet Itachi and the Hokages did that. We have Zabuza, Neji, Gaara, and Nagato all showing that what was did was the cycle is broken by the standards of the series. I presume you're talking about the Oto/Suna invasion, which had nothing to do with the cycle of hatred. Anyway, you're trying to apply a logic to Gaara and ignoring that the same logic would apply to Naruto, something Kishi basically ignores.

Originally Posted by Brill

No, they're not. War is more than just a battle royale which is what most shounen wars are. Wars has evolved into many types on armed manuevers and actions on a big scale. You deploy forces, setup lines of defense. penetrate enemy lines, commando attacks, commit reinfforcements, even setup triage. It's more than 10-20 people duking it out until there is one winner. That's not a war, that's a battle royale.

Yeah they are. You're trying to apply only modern warfare as the standard and completely ignoring that most wars were not conducted in such a specific way, like the Vietnam War.

Originally Posted by Brill

But it is a duck. You just don't like the duck. That's the issue here.

I don't like it because it's not a duck. You keep trying to make it as if the dislikers have "lofty" ideas about what should be happening when all we're doing is going by past examples.

Originally Posted by Brill

Evolution is fine, but it happens to people afterwards, not as the events are happening to them. After the war concludes several people will change most likely. But we aren't there yet. The war is still happening and you're not happy that people aren't different yet. It's been 24-36 hours since the war began, you have to give the character some time to process what's happened to them. No one changes that quickly.

No, it happens to people during. The series literally gave us numerous examples of people being changed by war straight away during said wars.

Originally Posted by Brill

We don't know the history between the Sand and Sound, but they did unite against a common foe. The same thing happens with the Shinobi alliance. They formed an alliance against a common foe, but it both cases the cycle of hate was not broken. Just because they fight united doesn't mean they're free of the cycle of hate.

There isn't any history being Oto and Suna, given that Oto had just recently been created and wasn't even a real village. And there wasn't any cycle of hatred between them. Regardless, the point remains that the Alliance isn't simply "working together", it's been outright shown that the various ninjas have forgiven and accepted one another. It makes no sense for a big deal to be made about them all forgiving each other and working together if that's not what happened.

Originally Posted by Brill

Yeah, Orochimaru was involved, but Konoha didn't know where and they didn't know when. They didn't know that the Sand was also involved and had penetrated their borders already. Konoha routed the combined might of both villages without the intervention of Gaara. Just shows how desparate the plan was to begin with. They couldn't win the conventional way they needed a bijuu to destroy the village in order to win. That's how powerful Konoha was. Yes the Ame was fighitng in those wars, and lost. The country was ravaged by the wars happening around them. Hanzou even needed help from the Leaf to supress its own civil war, just showing how fractured and poweless a nation it truly was. It can't take care of itself let alone take on the Big 5 even with assistance.

Yeah Konoha did know all that. Konoha's forces were already prepared and set up to counter them before the actual invasion. Konoha didn't rout them, they retreated after Orochimaru lost his arms. And desperate? A force of two hundred completely devastated Konoha. Had they used a bigger force, then Konoha likely wouldn't have stood any chance. Iwa and Suna lost too, that's a moot point. And Hanzou didn't need help, Danzo offered it to him in exchange for Ame's support.Why would Danzo make a deal to gain Ame's support in his bid for Hokage if they were too weak to matter?

Originally Posted by Brill

Except the issue here is plot and not storyline. They weren't eseential to the plot. Whether Ichigo gets to Orihime in 1 battle or 4 doesn't prevent Aizen from going to Karakura town to destroy the Soul Society. That's why they're pointless. Flashy, but pointless.

They were essential to the plot. Are you forgetting that they were the key to Ichigo gaining more power to even get to Aizen's level, not to mention pretty much ensuring that the battle came down to him and Aizen?

Originally Posted by Brill

He was established three times. Once during the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi, once when the brothers decided to make Sarutobi the 3rd Hokage, and the battle that claimed Tobriama's life. He was actually placed into the story. Was izuna? No, not until after Tobi's unveiling and we went into the flashback on the founding of the village. If this flashback was incorporated into the storyline before Tobi's unveiling Izuna could be a candidate rather than a footnote.

However, that doesn't change the fact that's Izuna's over 90. How old were Hashirama and Madara when the village was founded assuming it was founded 60 years ago (even this is debatable)? 10? That would make Izuna 70 now. 20? That would make Izuna 80 now. 30? that would make Izuna 90 in the present time line. We don't know their ages when the village was founded. The only person's age we DO know is Tsunade. She's in her 50's in the present time. Assuming both Tsunade's mom and Mito had their children at 20, that would put Mito at 90 in the current time line. That would put Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in their early 90's and that's not considering both women having their kids later in life or Tsunade being in her upper '50's. Izuna could easily be 100 in the present time line.

Again, Tobirama didn't become established til he was actually shown. Before being revived as an Edo Tensei, Tobirama wasn't mentioned at all. So claiming that because Izuna hasn't been given the same benefit of being revived in the current story he has no relevance is silly.

No, he's not. How is that debatable when we were outright told it was 60 years? They were most likely in their 20's. And you seem to be forgetting that Izuna was a child when Madara and Hashirama were in their preteens. You keep placing him at the same age, when it's clear that he was younger. And since the village was founded right after his death, when Sarutobi was in his preteens and Onoki was a teenager, he wouldn't be all that much older then them, thus 70-80.

Originally Posted by Brill

See above. If Tsunade were Hashirama's daughter, you'd be in the right time frame. Unfortunately, she's his granddaughter. That puts Hashirama well into his 30's when the village was founded. Same with Izuna, he's only a few years younger than Madara. Saying Onoki and Izuna are the same age is ridiculous. We have no idea how old Onoki is, we know that Onoki knew Madara but was he a genin, or chuunin, or jounin when he did? It's unclear. Not to mention the one blatant fact about Izuna. if Tobi was Izuna, he wouldn't have black hair, it'd be white like Onoki's. Izuna is likely older than Onoki his hair'd be whiter not black like Tobi's. It's just not physically possible to make Izuna Tobi. It's a worse retcon than Obito.

Izuna was more then a few years younger. And Onoki was in his late teens, just like Izuna would have been. And why wouldn't Izuna have black hair? Danzo's in his 70's and he still had black hair. So there's nothing physically impossible about it.

Originally Posted by Brill

Which have absolutely nothing to do with Tobi being Obito. It doesn't prevent Obito from not meeting Yahiko before he dies. That is the only real condition and there's nothing to refute that.

It has plenty to do with Tobi being Obito, because it caused a bunch of things to be either pushed back or thrown out of any conceivable order, such as the Bloody Mist and Yagura being controlled. And it puts the Third World War and Yahiko's death later then previously shown.

Originally Posted by Brill

Because you're trying to provide an alternative scenario for being Tobi instead of what Kishi has written. Having Obito form an organziation in 15 years is believablle. Having Izuna form one 50 years after doing nothing is not. Haivng Madara exisitng in a pathetic state waiting for Obito to come along to enact his revenge is a hell of a lot better than having his brother trying to do something 60 years later well into his 90's.

Because what Kishi wrote makes no sense. How is it more believable for Obito to form an organization he didn't even need and then sit around in the shadows for 15 years when he was capable of completing the plan straight away verses an injured and weakened Izuna needing to wait til conditions were right to begin the plan? And how exactly is it better that Madara literally waited 50-some years for a person he had no idea would have come or would have assisted him? The way things have happen have relied on a whole bunch of specific and farfetch events to happen in exactly the right way.

Originally Posted by Brill

That's right and the cycle of hate never stops. So the fighting continues for generations. The fighting is still continuuing by villages instead of roaming nomads. The shinobi system is the weapon, the cycle of hate is pulling the trigger. So Rin a victim of the cycle of hate.

Simply fighting doesn't lead to the cycle of hatred and the fighting between the villages isn't caused solely by the cycle of hatred. Point remains that Rin wasn't killed because Kiri wanted revenge, it had nothing to do with the cycle of hatred.

Originally Posted by Brill

Yet no date was given when Obito meets Yahiko. You assume they're teenagers by their looks in big bulky cloaks but you don't know when they met. That's your assumption, they could easily be in their 20's when they met Obito. There is no plothole, just the desire for Tobi not being Oibto.

A date was given, between 15 and 17 years ago, since it happen after Kakashi's 13th birthday but before Naruto's birth when Kakashi was 15. And given that we have seen them in their 20's, and they look no different when they met Obito has they did being trained by Jiraiya, pretty sure I can make that claim.

Originally Posted by Brill

This isn't a retcom. You assumed that the issue was resolved when in fact it wasn't. If there was a scene where Kakashi walks past the memorial stone and doesn't stop after his talk with his father, then you could say he moved on. But he hasn't. The latest chapters state it. There is no retcon because it didn't happen the way you envisioned it.

No, it was resolved. The entire meeting with his father was about resolving it. It makes no sense for him to have been given a heart to heart with his father and nothing come from it. And as mentioned before, the entire memorial thing hasn't been shown since Part Two began. It was a nonfactor.