It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.

Which part needs explaining?

Hello Robert:

a)Just to be clear: If a person follows abhidhamma, does he agree with the suttas provided by the user Zom? (or that person thinks its some later addition, a bad translation, or something like that).

b)If a person follows abhidhamma, what does he think of the idea that in the suttas there appears to be a strong time difference between path and fruition? (to the extend that its even possible to talk about 8 kind of individuals).

Sorry if it was already explained, but in previous posts there was so much pali terminology and concepts that it was hard to follow, so it would be great if it can be explained in simple words (i know its the abhidhamma section of the forum so sorry about that).

The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.

I'm showing you what is said about 4 paths and 4 fruits in the suttas. Nowhere there you will find another kind of explanation, like "one-moment-path". There is, for example, such thing as "a path to non-returning", and no way this is a "one mind moment", but instead this is a long period of time. This is very clear if you read what I cited carefully. The Buddha says: "the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world".

Abhidhamma also teach like that, what is the difference?

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

b)If a person follows abhidhamma, what does he think of the idea that in the suttas there appears to be a strong time difference between path and fruition? (to the extend that its even possible to talk about 8 kind of individuals).

Ābhidhammikas accept that there are eight kinds of individuals, but maintain that since path-attainment is followed immediately by fruition-attainment, four of the eight individuals don't last for very long.

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.

You can't not understand abhidhamma if you still be superficial.

In thailand the abhidhamma course need at least 7 years to study for the superficial course (I never graduated it). It takes a time to study more than bachelor sum with master degree. Many graduated doctrine degree, can not graduated this course, although they still trust in it because of the hard of abhidhamma.

I have been ordinate 6 years to study pāli, to recited and memorized some sutta. When I can answer all the sutta core, but I still can not answer the millions questions that were asked in mahāpaṭṭhāna, the 7th book of abhidhamma that contented just the questions for the other 6 books, because there are too much causes and effects to sum in abhidhamma.

For the genius person, I very recommend to study abhidhamma and pāli, you will have the unlimited questions to ask yourselves for your 10 lives.

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Last edited by theY on Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Why do you think that one can enlighten nibbāna (lokuttara-magga), before practicing (lokiya-magga)?

Because with my understanding it goes this way:

1. I learn about Dhamma for the first time. I have faith and I am convinced this is the right way. (only one moment)
2. I try to practice. (many many years)
3. Maybe some day I become sotapanna. (only one moment, maybe in the future)

If we say, lokuttara-magga is one moment, and phala is also one moment, and lokuttara-magga and phala happen one moment after another, then from my perspective lokuttara-magga (one moment) + phala (one moment) = one moment.

How long is one moment?

For me 1 moment + 1 moment = 1 moment (I have diploma in mathematics).
It makes no difference. We cannot see the difference between one moment or two moments.
So why do we have two words (lokuttara-magga and lokuttara-phala), when they are only one moment and another moment = 1 moment?

I think it would make more sense in this way:
1. lokuttara-magga - hearing about Dhamma for the first time and believing this is the right way without any doubt (one moment of faith that cannot be destroyed; but still not started or done any work)
2. lokiya-magga - doing the work: practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill 1st-3rd of 10 saṅyojana
3. lokuttara-phala - finally, after practicing for a long time: perfect moment of understanding

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.

Which part needs explaining?

Hello Robert:

a)Just to be clear: If a person follows abhidhamma, does he agree with the suttas provided by the user Zom? (or that person thinks its some later addition, a bad translation, or something like that).

b)If a person follows abhidhamma, what does he think of the idea that in the suttas there appears to be a strong time difference between path and fruition? (to the extend that its even possible to talk about 8 kind of individuals).

Sorry if it was already explained, but in previous posts there was so much pali terminology and concepts that it was hard to follow, so it would be great if it can be explained in simple words (i know its the abhidhamma section of the forum so sorry about that).

Regards.

Ven. Dhammanado has already explained very well but I add more.
The Abhidhamma and suttas and also the Commentaries are in perfect agreement.
So first what is a being? For the one who misunderstands the suttas - which use conventional language at times- they think that there is a person who is born and lives a long or short time and then dies. But in reality there is only nama and rupa arising and ceasing - no human at all.

"this division too should be known, namely momentary death (khanika-
marana), conventional death (samutti marana) and death as cutting
off (samuccheda-marana)

also path of purification xliii “

There are three kinds of death: death as
cutting off, momentary death, and conventional death. Death as cutting off belongs
to those whose cankers are exhausted (and are Arahants). Momentary death is
that of each consciousness of the cognitive series beginning with life-continuum
consciousness, which arise each immediately on the cessation of the one preceding.
Conventional death is that of all (so-called) living beings

So yes there are eight pairs but( as explained by ven. Dhammanando) the 4 of path moment are so momentary. The other 4 are also just as momentary but often/usually that type can keep rearising again and again- until the next path moment..
And f course sometimes we see that a putthujana goes through the various stages almost instantly- one moment stopattimagga, the fruit of, then sakagami etc etc.
as this is such a fundamental issue I would be happy to add more if you have questions.

Coëmgenu wrote:"The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment."

What does the title of this thread mean? This belief in Abhidhamma is more often criticized than praised on Buddhist internet forums. I would like provide a counterbalance to that, ideally with this thread. I would like to see an Abhidhammika's insider-perspective on these two questions, more specifically:

1) "why" does the arising of the four paths endure for only one mind-moment, as in, how is this explained to occur?

and 2) what does this mean for practitioners?

and, if you will forgive me to be greedy for information, where can I find relevant sections of the Abhidhammatthasaṇgaha, or another text you would advise, that deal with this?

Thank you for your time .

Can you quote the passage in the Abhidhamma where this is stated, please?
Can you also quote a criticism that has been leveled at this statement?

I would like to see the context of both so I can further understand what the criticisms are all about.

Thanks.......

Alas, I cannot link you to such things, because I myself am in the process of trying to figure out exactly why the sutta-followers have issues with the momentariness (they seem to just misunderstand it) that informs most of mainstream Buddhism historically extant, in both the śrāvaka & bodhisattva vehicles. The misunderstandings, the ones that I have seen at least, seem to generally correlate around the notion that momentariness necessarily leads to a loss in object permanence in the worldviews of those to uphold it.

Reading is very bad method of study. I often try to tell that how much important of reciting and memorizing tipitaka-pāli, but no one focus on it. So, useless question still going on from reading.

my english is terrible, so I will not quote the translation, because it is very hard for me to find the translated text ,or translate it to english. You must try to translate these pāli by yourselves.

I think according to sutta MN 142 it can not be only one moment. It must be a longer period of time.

I used to think like zom, when I began to read thai translated tipitaka, about 15 years ago. However, for today, I can confirm that my old view is wrong and not complicated with the pāli. You can see follow this answer.

The truth is nothing in your quoted said "it can not be only one moment". So, your idea is still not sure.

And my idea still be able, because,one can give a gift to enlightening lokuttara-monk, who meditating insight-meditation while he receiving one's gift. In that time, if that bhikkhu enlightening nibbāna as sotāpanna, and if then that sotāpanna go ahead to practice lokiya-magga for sakadāgāmi-ariya's enlightenment. So one giving that gift to:
1. kalyānaputhujana's lokiya-magga.
2. Sotāpatti-phala-sacchikiriyāya-puggala's lokuttara-sotāpatti-magga (this Sotāpatti-phala-sacchikiriya is called as puggala, because it is puggalādiṭṭhāna-desanā.)
3. lokuttara-sotāpatti-phala
4. Sotāpanna who doing sotāpanna's lokiya-magga.

That one giving that gift to 4 people, just in a second.

So, you and me, still no one wrong.

But I have sutta-pāli, abhidhamma-pāli, commentary-pāli in my hand. So, we can decide the truth from the evidence, and the reason.

I showed you an evidence, but you not trust in it, so I will show you the reason:

1st reason: sotāpanna-lokuttara-magga is not just like you said "hearing about Dhamma for the first time and believing this is the right way without any doubt". So in alagaddūpama-sutta, buddha split them to two monk-type:

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers (dhammānusārī) and conviction-followers (saddhānusārī) [18] are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."

2nd reason: according to above quoted sutta, dhamma/saddhānusārī are not just a puthujāna who are not absolutely lead to self-awakening, because many sutta such as cakkhu-sutta (quoted below) said that dhamma/saddhānusārī are sotāpanna.

Buddha said "abhabbo ca tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti’’, because sotāpatti-phalaṃ must immediately arise after sotāpatti-maggaṃ in the same vīthī, without any other mind, such as dead-mind, between them. Afther this vīthī sotāpanna can die every moment.

So, buddha said "samādhimānantarikaññamāhu (K.N. Karaṇīyamettāsutta)" and "ānantariyaṃ (kamma that give the fruit immediately without any distance)" in this sutta:

3rd reason: From people learned dhamma at 1st time, they still kill the mosquito. So, your lokuttara-magga is not compatibility with cakkhu-sutta (quoted above) " saddhānusārī, ...abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ, yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya’". Also, there are many sutta said that sotāpanna will not try to kill any animal, too.

So, your lokuttara-magga actually is just lokiya-magga.

1. I learn about Dhamma for the first time. I have faith and I am convinced this is the right way. (only one moment)
2. I try to practice. (many many years)
3. Maybe some day I become sotapanna. (only one moment, maybe in the future)

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

By this view you will read tipitaka easier, more than your current view.

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Thank you, theY, for giving this very patient and careful explanation.

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

You have given very good reasoning from suttas to show the difference betwenn saddhānusārī and dhammānusārī and "yesaṃ mayi saddhāmattaṃ pemamattaṃ".

I think I have to learn what is one vīthi (thought-process?) to understand more. The abhidhamma says there are millions and millions of vīthi in one blink of an eye, and each of them is only a few (17?) thought-moments.

This term means a way or street, but here it is used in the sense of process (paramparā). A thought-process consists of several thought-moments, and a thought-moment is never called a citta-vīthi.

/.../

4. Thought-processes

According to Abhidhamma ordinarily there is no moment when we do not experience a particular kind of consciousness, hanging on to some object - whether physical of mental. The time-limit of such a consciousness is termed one thought-moment. The rapidity of the succession of such thought-moments is hardly conceivable by the ken of human knowledge. Books state that within the brief duration of a flash of lightning, or in the twinkling of an eye billions of thought-moments may arise and perish.

But can there also be many vīthi at the same time? And can some vīthi maybe take very long? Or are all vīthi very short and happen million times faster than blink of an eye, and only one vīthi after another?

Is one vīthi always very short? Or can one vīthi happen maybe over many years, with 17 thought moments all belonging to this same vīthi, but a long time between them?

3rd reason: From people learned dhamma at 1st time, they still kill the mosquito. So, your lokuttara-magga is not compatibility with cakkhu-sutta (quoted above) " saddhānusārī, ...abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ, yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya’". Also, there are many sutta said that sotāpanna will not try to kill any animal, too.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Sadhu!

Now I can believe a bit more that there may be good reasoning in Abhidhamma, but I am still not sure about vithi.

When I first learnt about Buddha's teachings, I thought: "I believe that this is the truth and the right way without any doubt. But some things very difficult to understand in these translations from a very old language. And I will already go to hell anyway, because I have done many bad things, and my thinking is confused. I have no chance to get out of this." So I did not really try to practice Dhamma. I could not even sit for one moment still, because I had a lot of kukkuccha.

But then later at some point, I thought: "Okay, I will try to not go to hell. I have to start at some point. I will stop killing any living being, not even moscitos." And so I did not kill any living being for seven years, and many other things, thinking like in Dhammapada 121 and 122:https://suttacentral.net/pi/dhp#121https://suttacentral.net/en/dhp#121
It has helped me a lot to think in this way.

But a few months ago I started killing moscitos again. And the last time, two days ago, I killed two moscitos. I felt bad about it. I will try now to not kill moscitos again.

But would it not make sense to say for example that I had this vīthi for seven years that "I will not kill even a moscito", but then at some point I destroyed that vīthi?
I am just trying to understand the meaning of vīthi.
If, for example, we keep one thought in mind for a very long time, can this be the same as one citta-vīthi?

But I will also try to read Abhidhamma, when I have time, to see if I can understand it.

But can there also be many vīthi at the same time? (yes)
And can some vīthi maybe take very long? (maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing)
Or are all vīthi very short and happen million times faster than blink of an eye, and only one vīthi after another? (maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing)
Is one vīthi always very short? (minimum 5 mind-moments' ongoing to maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing.)
Or can one vīthi happen maybe over many years, with 17 thought moments all belonging to this same vīthi, but a long time between them? (vīthi-period is very short, but the past vīthi, in the past vīthi-period, can be pakata-upanissaya-paccaya[behavior-cause] of the present/future viīthi in present/future vīthi-period)

There are mind-moment and vīthi-period.

blink of an eye = over trillions mind-moments, some mind-moments are vīthī in vīthī-period and some mind-moments are bhavaṅga in vīthī-period-freed.1 form-moment = 17 ongoing mind-moments.Mind-moment = the fastest moment of everything. It can not measure, uncountable. Each mind-moment in the vīthi-period is called vīthi. Each mind-moment out of vīthi-period is called bhavaṅga.
1 regular state person's vīthi-period = minimum 5 mind-moments' ongoing to maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing. Then bhavaṅga arise, uncounable ongoing, then each vīthi in 6 vīthi, such as smell-vīthi, arise. It is nonstop loop between vīthi-period and bhavaṅgas' ongoing.
1 jhāna state person's vīthi-period = no limit, for human maybe maximum 1-7 days. It depend on personal body's durability, because between the moment that one attaining jhāna, he can't not eat anything. bhavaṅga=mind-moments arise before and after vīthi-periods. bhavaṅga is the fruit of past-kamma, that keeping present rebirth going on by it's management.

But would it not make sense to say for example that I had this vīthi for seven years that "I will not kill even a moscito", but then at some point I destroyed that vīthi?
I am just trying to understand the meaning of vīthi.
If, for example, we keep one thought in mind for a very long time, can this be the same as one citta-vīthi?

Mind-moment is the shortest & fastest in the universe. So, vīthi-period, maximum 14 mind-moments, is very short, too. But the past vīthi, in the past vīthi-period, can be pakata-upanissaya-paccaya[behavior-cause] of the present/future viīthi in present/future vīthi-period.

So, although the past vīthi finished in the past life, it still can be a cause of present/future life's effect, too.

Pakata-upanissaya-paccaya[behavior-cause] is in abhidhammatthasaṅgaha chapter 8, which you must have to learn 1st -7th chapter before. This chapter is the hardest lesson of tipitaka, it is called paṭṭhāna-abhidhamma-pitaka, the 7th canon of abhidhamma, the last canon of abhidhamma.

1st - 8th chapters of abhidhammatthasaṅgaha is the focus-stuff of insight-meditation in 9th chapter of it.

Last edited by theY on Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Ābhidhammikas accept that there are eight kinds of individuals, but maintain that since path-attainment is followed immediately by fruition-attainment, four of the eight individuals don't last for very long.

One takes many steps on a mountain path.

Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

In the Buddhist conception, is the path to hell long or short?
It can be either. For one it might be a lifetime of habitually practised minor transgressions, while for another it might be a millisecond of wrath in which he shoots a bullet into his mother's brain.

In the Christian conception, is the path to heaven long or short? Again it can be either: for one a lifetime of piety, humility and charity, and for another —a lifelong reprobate— merely a moment of repentance as he falls off his horse and breaks his neck (Betwtixt the stirrup and the ground / He mercy sought and mercy found.).

And so the mere fact that something is called a "path" tells us nothing at all about whether it is long or short; and especially when the word is being used in an obviously figurative sense to denote something non-physical.

You are still mistaking the inessential for the essential. What makes a path a path is that it leads from one thing to another. It may be short in distance or it may be long, or in some cases it may a path of such a kind that any talk of distance would be a category mistake.