Just a note for credit where credit is due:My post of a photo of a cracked/crevice corroded bolt is credit to myself for finding an issue, and to Bruce Babcock for sectioning the bolt and finding the crack. Bruce is a contributer to this effort, and I don't want to leave him out.

From reading through the various entries in this discussion, is it safe to say that Tross was trying to develop a staybolt that would function with a flat crown sheet firebox, versus a radial stayed firebox, which seemed to have far fewer problems?

I find it odd that the people who expound the German locomotive model seem to ignore the fact that in U.S. practice, flat crown sheets went away, and radial stayed fireboxes became the norn in the late 1870's.

I'm nothing like the expert John is - or probably many of our European posters - on German steam, but out of the few examples I have been fortunate enough to lay hands on I recall none having a flat crown sheet, more the common gently arched version we all are familiar with. I have seen some unusual (to us) staying by gusset plates on various parts of little 60CM industrial lokies from over there......In fact all my German steam hands-on has been in narrow gage industrial stuff. I suppose flat crowns might have been common on standard gage steam, but kind of doubt it if the little stuff didn't use it. An interesting perspective, for sure.

dave

_________________"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Ummmm, yeah, Matt, it sure does.....but what does that have to do with German fireboxen and crownen sheeten? Actually, I have seen some ancient drawings of Yank flat tops with crown bars on old keyhole boilers circa 1870's or thereabouts as well.

Getting back to the original post, I think we are wondering if the German mainline standard was for flat crowns in the post-Tross era? Surely somebody with the relevant expeprience is out there and can provide some good information.

dave

_________________"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

So the statement sometime back in the thread that "the British, Germans, and Austrailians are all doing it this way" takes on a new meaning when all three boilers came from the same boiler works and were designed by the same team of engineers

We were only talking about three particular boilers? I must have missed that....I thought we were speaking of national standards of three different countries. Which brings to mind an interestring question again: is a boiler built in Germany to British design and standards British or German? What if it is made with Polish or Czech steel? Is your Ford built in the Guadalajara plant a Mexican car?

Perhaps some of the internationalism here is blurring lines of communication. We need to be more precise.

dave

_________________"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Dave,Regarding your Ford, it is probably Norwegian ocean-liner steel, remelted in India, stamped, cast and/or machined in China, Thailand or South Korea, then bolted together in Mexico.....The PED is another layer of bureaucracy layered on top of each EU countries own boiler code to certify compliance to the country of manufactures code, with recourse for deficiencies. These PED boilers get the CE stamp for imposed acceptance in all EU.Just for the record, there are currently 185 ASME Code shops in Germany.

Imagine if each state in the US had its own code........California would be the most stringent in air quality and complexity, New Jersey union worker content, Alabama permitting duct tape repairs........

Actually, I have an old Subaru made in Gary, Indiana with parts from who knows where when GM was a majority shareholder in Subaru, so.........I like to think of it as an American car but with better quality due to foreign influence, kind of like the BMWs coming out of SC but inexpensive and built to stay that way.

So now we have another layer of comparitive complexity - old boilers made to originating countries code and new replica boilers made to a common EU spec with each nations additional imposition? I wonder if we really do know what circumstances we are talking about in a lot of the postings above.

dave

_________________"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Each state in the US does have its own code, at least as far as having its own inspector give the OK to any given boiler, and many have their own standards regarding antique boilers. A boiler certified to operate in its home state is quite often illegal to operate in any other state without a duplicate inspection. A few states have reciprocity clauses to allow for visiting boilers, but not many. This is a huge problem for traction engine and steam launch owners when attending out of state meets. It makes being under the single standard of the FRA pretty sweet, especially for those locomotives that cross state lines.

_________________"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."C. S. Forester

Each state in the US does have its own code, at least as far as having its own inspector give the OK to any given boiler, and many have their own standards regarding antique boilers.

Kelly:

States generally adopt the NBIC and ASME Codes for stationary boilers. What has caused a problem is that many states overlooked portable or mobile boilers and their respective state law and regulations have to be modified to include them.

What does change from state to state is what is required to obtain a license to operate the boiler. Municipalities can also impose licensing requirements. Jurisdictions also vary as to operator licensing requirements.

With state as with any regulator it is easier for them to say no than to say yes. For example, a state inspector may say that they don't think a boiler is safe to operate and refuse to renew the operating permit. It is then up to the boiler owner to demonstrate to the state jurisdictional authority that the boiler is safe to operate.

The reason for this is due to the reservation clause in the US Constitution. The railroads were able to avoid the individual state licensing problem because of first the ICC regulations and then FRA regulations under the interstate commerce clause.

This lead to some interesting situations for freight tariffs. In the late 19th century, it was cheaper to ship cotton bales from N. Texas to New Orleans for export than to Galveston as to New Orleans was interstate and to Galveston was intrastate.

From a practical POV, few insular locomotives move around between states for operating purposes. Having had some very interesting experiences with state guys who inspect boilers, escalators, conveyor belts, elevators, amusement park rides and industrial parts movement machinery I well understand the level of expertise one can expect when trying to certify an unusual and obsolete boiler. It is a fine thing to have a national set of standards to prevent such arguments, and raise the bar of professionalism among blessedly fewer inspectors. An international set would be even better..........

dave

_________________"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

You will find that not all of the states even have an inspection program. New Mexico is one such state. The rotary snowplows on the C&TS have operated with only a Colorado inspection due to this situation. Historically at least there are a few others out there.

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