This is why it gives me the shivers when people say Merica is a Christian nation and you can take our guns out of our cold dead hands. It isn’t a stretch of the imagination to picture America officially a nation of Christianity with a massive majority bombing a minority. Especially with their past history of discrimination, an angry claim of oppression, and often a zealot defense of the second amendment. I do hope theists see this story and at least acknowledge that it could happen here if certain groups get their way.

The danger of the polarising of opinion by religious (or any other) dogma is hard to underestimate.

We see such atrocities perpetrated by the same fundamentalists who tell us that everything bad is caused by Man not following whatever god it is they worship. And just to prove how bad man can be, they set off a few bombs, burn a few heretics, subjugate a minority, or deny advantageous science - and for what?

Sometimes I despair and imagine a largish island to which all these psychopaths could be sent, fully-armed and indoctrinated, where they could settle all their differences and leave the rest of us to live a better life.

I am reminded of a story:

A TV journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.

So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.

She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.

"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith a TV reporter. What's your name?

"Morris Feinberg," he replied.

"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims. I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop. I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults, and to love their fellow man."

This is why it gives me the shivers when people say Merica is a Christian nation and you can take our guns out of our cold dead hands. It isn’t a stretch of the imagination to picture America officially a nation of Christianity with a massive majority bombing a minority. Especially with their past history of discrimination, an angry claim of oppression, and often a zealot defense of the second amendment. I do hope theists see this story and at least acknowledge that it could happen here if certain groups get their way.

G, it's actually the Christians in the USA who believe they will one day be targeted just as the Christians in Iraq, Iran, Sudan, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Nigeria, Libya, Egypt, Turkey, Kurdistan, Georgia, Eritrea, and many other countries.

If you find yourself a target of persecution because you aren't a Christian by someone claiming to be "Christian," they aren't Christian any more than you are.

So you don’t believe America is a Christian nation? You don’t believe that the majority of Americans are Christians? How is the majority of the US being oppressed? Please don’t say because Duck Dynasty characters can't say bigoted things. Or because its frowned upon to discriminate against people based on their sexual preference.

Quote

If you find yourself a target of persecution because you aren't a Christian by someone claiming to be "Christian," they aren't Christian any more than you are.

What world do you live in?

I didn’t read the link. It's getting late and I fear what I read on the link will piss me off. I'm in no mood to go to bed pissed. I might save it for tomorrow if I have the chance to jump on here.

No. How could it be? A nation that is made up of Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus, New Agers, atheists, agnostics, professing "Christians" who don't actually know what it means to be a Christian but grew up in church, Jews, people who are Christians because they aren't any of the other categories is far from being Christian.

There are nations who mandate the national religion is Islam and run their courts based on Sharia law. They can rightly be called "Muslim nations." But there is no official national religion in the USA (though unofficially the cult of Self is pretty big).

Quote

You don’t believe that the majority of Americans are Christians?

As you should be able to tell by now, no. I don't believe that the majority of people sitting in the pews in church on Sunday morning are Christians. If you believe something, it should change your life - how you live your life and how you treat other people. I know no one is perfect, but I see so little evidence of salvific regeneration in most of Christianity - and I live in an area of the country where there is a church on every corner. That's not to say that I don't see a difference in some Christians. I do, but it's not the majority. The majority live like people who do not claim to be Christians. Culturally there is little difference.

Quote

How is the majority of the US being oppressed? Please don’t say because Duck Dynasty characters can't say bigoted things. Or because its frowned upon to discriminate against people based on their sexual preference.

Or how about Obama trying to force religious institutions to pay for abortifacients in Obamacare?

Or the myriad of schools that ban the word "Christmas" and Christmas carols that refer to Jesus? Just go to any news site, Fox News is a good one, and google "Christian" and "persecution" or "Christmas" and "banned." You'll see more articles than you have time to read.

Quote

Quote

If you find yourself a target of persecution because you aren't a Christian by someone claiming to be "Christian," they aren't Christian any more than you are.

What world do you live in?

The same one I think you are in. Why would Christians want to take up arms or become guerrilla terrorists against atheists? When Jesus was before Pilate, He said His kingdom was not of this world. He could have called down the armies of heaven, but that was not His goal at that time. It's not the goal of Christians now. The kingdom is already here, in the hearts of men. Killing men because they believe differently doesn't expand God's kingdom. Protecting our "rights" is an American thing, but it's not where our hope lies.

What do Christians do in Syria and Iraq when they are bombed and survive? They don't bomb back, they leave for safer places. American Christians will likely have to do the same one day.

Quote

I didn’t read the link. It's getting late and I fear what I read on the link will piss me off. I'm in no mood to go to bed pissed. I might save it for tomorrow if I have the chance to jump on here.

Better to be pissed off than pissed on.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Or the myriad of schools that ban the word "Christmas" and Christmas carols that refer to Jesus? Just go to any news site, Fox News is a good one, and google "Christian" and "persecution" or "Christmas" and "banned." You'll see more articles than you have time to read.

Just out of interest, do you regard Fox News as an unbiased and truthful source of information?

G, it's actually the Christians in the USA who believe they will one day be targeted just as the Christians in Iraq, Iran, Sudan, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Nigeria, Libya, Egypt, Turkey, Kurdistan, Georgia, Eritrea, and many other countries.

If you find yourself a target of persecution because you aren't a Christian by someone claiming to be "Christian," they aren't Christian any more than you are.

I have never, ever understood why Christians moan and whine about persecution. Do they think that Paul was a liar, a charlatan, some poor deluded soul? Or do they believe his words were inspired by God?

2Tm:3:8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.2Tm:3:9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.2Tm:3:10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,2Tm:3:11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.2Tm:3:12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

If everyone stopped persecuting Christians, would that not mean that Paul knew nothing and was making it up?

However, it is perfectly OK for Christians to persecute non-Christians:

2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

So, out with it gzusfreke, what exactly are you complaining about?

Logged

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

I have never, ever understood why Christians moan and whine about persecution.

Could it be because no one, whether theist or atheist, likes to be raped, pillaged, beaten, tortured, denied basic human rights, or have their property taken from them?

But talking about a subject and discussing how terrible it is, is not necessarily moaning and whining.

Quote

Do they think that Paul was a liar, a charlatan, some poor deluded soul? Or do they believe his words were inspired by God

It is probably no surprise to you that many who call themselves "Christians" actually don't know what is in the book that they profess they believe, so persecution to them is a strange concept.

Quote

]If everyone stopped persecuting Christians, would that not mean that Paul knew nothing and was making it up?

No, it would mean that Jesus had returned for the 2nd Coming, because that's the only way persecution of Christians will come to an end. It would also mean you would not like the predicament you will find yourself in on that day.

Quote

However, it is perfectly OK for Christians to persecute non-Christians:

No, never.

Quote

2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Do you know the context surrounding this verse? (A text without context is a pretext)

After years of evil monarchs, King Asa, a king who sought to honor Yahweh, has come to power. During the previous years, the monarchs before him instituted the worship of false idols and all but ended the worship of Yahweh in the nation of Judah. This is a time of reform. And the Jews were putting to death anyone who did not worship God. But it wasn't Christians doing it. Christians don't have a theocratic nation and have never been told to kill anyone because they don't worship God or Jesus. No, many Christians have gone into areas where Yahweh is not worshiped and given their lives (Steve Saint and Jim Elliot are good examples) so that the Gospel may go forth and bring redemption from sin to people who had no hope.

Quote

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"[/color]

Again, a text without a context is a pretext. This verse is not talking about Christians taking vengeance, it is about God exacting judgment on unbelievers on the day of Christ's return.

The Judgment at Christ's Coming (the heading of the passage in the ESV)

"This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. "(2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, ESV)

Quote

So, out with it gzusfreke, what exactly are you complaining about?

Uh, how about that you are a troll, that you take verses out of context, and that you promote dishonesty by making false accusations and assumptions?

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

No. How could it be? A nation that is made up of Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus, New Agers, atheists, agnostics, professing "Christians" who don't actually know what it means to be a Christian but grew up in church, Jews, people who are Christians because they aren't any of the other categories is far from being Christian.

There are nations who mandate the national religion is Islam and run their courts based on Sharia law. They can rightly be called "Muslim nations." But there is no official national religion in the USA (though unofficially the cult of Self is pretty big).

Hey what do you know we agree on the first point right off the bat!

Quote

As you should be able to tell by now, no. I don't believe that the majority of people sitting in the pews in church on Sunday morning are Christians. If you believe something, it should change your life - how you live your life and how you treat other people. I know no one is perfect, but I see so little evidence of salvific regeneration in most of Christianity - and I live in an area of the country where there is a church on every corner. That's not to say that I don't see a difference in some Christians. I do, but it's not the majority. The majority live like people who do not claim to be Christians. Culturally there is little difference.

Yes but those fake Christians self identify and vote as Christians. They may not be as Christian as you or a different kind of Christian as you but that means nothing to me. I care about if they vote religiously and see religion as a shield to discriminate and oppress others with a different world view, race, sexuality, or gender. They can be very nice fake Christians and that is great but how does their fake iron age religion interact with others?We here call these fake Christians SPAG. Self Projection As God. I don’t know if you have been introduced to that yet. Anyway it's when individuals assign characteristics and traits they feel a deity should have.

Quote

The majority of the US is not being oppressed, just a minority.

Ok, even though you brought up a good example, I won't speak to that.

What!?

Ok...

Gzusfreke you seem like a pretty nice guy so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you are a bigot. But I gotta ask, do you feel that a Christian has the right to oppress and deny gays the same rights, privileges, and opportunities that we straight (I assume you are straight) folk enjoy?

Quote

How about when the US Army tells the troops not to use the word Christmas?

Myself and everyone I know has been saying Merry Christmas all week. Lol at ease Gzusfreke.

Quote

Or how about Obama trying to force religious institutions to pay for abortifacients in Obamacare?

I am not sure how to define abortifacients.

Quote

The same one I think you are in. Why would Christians want to take up arms or become guerrilla terrorists against atheists? When Jesus was before Pilate, He said His kingdom was not of this world.

So atheist worry about Christians prosecuting them and Christians worry about the government prosecuting them?

No. How could it be? A nation that is made up of Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus, New Agers, atheists, agnostics, professing "Christians" who don't actually know what it means to be a Christian but grew up in church, Jews, people who are Christians because they aren't any of the other categories is far from being Christian.

There are nations who mandate the national religion is Islam and run their courts based on Sharia law. They can rightly be called "Muslim nations." But there is no official national religion in the USA (though unofficially the cult of Self is pretty big).

Hey what do you know we agree on the first point right off the bat!

Quote

As you should be able to tell by now, no. I don't believe that the majority of people sitting in the pews in church on Sunday morning are Christians. If you believe something, it should change your life - how you live your life and how you treat other people. I know no one is perfect, but I see so little evidence of salvific regeneration in most of Christianity - and I live in an area of the country where there is a church on every corner. That's not to say that I don't see a difference in some Christians. I do, but it's not the majority. The majority live like people who do not claim to be Christians. Culturally there is little difference.

Yes but those fake Christians self identify and vote as Christians. They may not be as Christian as you or a different kind of Christian as you but that means nothing to me. I care about if they vote religiously and see religion as a shield to discriminate and oppress others with a different world view, race, sexuality, or gender. They can be very nice fake Christians and that is great but how does their fake iron age religion interact with others?We here call these fake Christians SPAG. Self Projection As God. I don’t know if you have been introduced to that yet. Anyway it's when individuals assign characteristics and traits they feel a deity should have.

G-Roll, what us True@ Christians believe is that when the persecution gets heavy here in the USA, those fake-believers will behave just like they do in other countries. They will deconvert just as soon as they can in order to protect their sorry little butts. Now as for their voting record until that time, yes, they tend to vote conservative to moderate. That's kind of the cultural norm, contrary to what a lot of liberals would like to believe.

Quote

Quote

The majority of the US is not being oppressed, just a minority.

Ok, even though you brought up a good example, I won't speak to that.

What!?

Ok...

Gzusfreke you seem like a pretty nice guy so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you are a bigot. But I gotta ask, do you feel that a Christian has the right to oppress and deny gays the same rights, privileges, and opportunities that we straight (I assume you are straight) folk enjoy?

My comment is in the context of persecution of Christians. Only a minority of Christians so far have seen any real persecution.

I am straight. Do I oppose gay marriage? Yes. Why? Because (it would take a whole 'nother thread to discuss this. I've got my nose in too many others since I am one person trying to answer 7 or 8 people all the time, so I won't be starting that thread.) But let them have the same same tax benefits for domestic partnerships, the same hospital visitation rights, the same insurance breaks, etc. That's fine. And while we at it, let's legalize polygamy (Utah pretty much did last week) and bestiality and child marriage just to be sure we don't exclude or offend anyone.

Quote

Quote

How about when the US Army tells the troops not to use the word Christmas?

Myself and everyone I know has been saying Merry Christmas all week. Lol at ease Gzusfreke.

G-Roll, you too seem like a nice guy that I would like to hang out with eating burgers and drinking an O'Douls with, but the sad fact is that more and more, Christianity is under attack among our Armed Forces and in the public arena (schools, local government). This is public record, which Fox News and World Net Daily can supply you with more than you can imagine of such instances.

Quote

Quote

Or how about Obama trying to force religious institutions to pay for abortifacients in Obamacare?

I am not sure how to define abortifacients.

Abortifacients are chemicals that cause a miscarriage. The day after pill. I'm not hung up so much on birth control before conception, but birth control after conception is murder. Why should religious institutions have to subsidize murder?

Quote

Quote

The same one I think you are in. Why would Christians want to take up arms or become guerrilla terrorists against atheists? When Jesus was before Pilate, He said His kingdom was not of this world.

So atheist worry about Christians prosecuting them and Christians worry about the government prosecuting them?

I'm not sure why atheists worry about Christians prosecuting them, I don't see any of that but please feel free to send me some weblinks and enlighten me.

Christians are worried about their rights to live and worship within the context of their faith being taken away - the right to share their faith publicly, the right to homeschool their children if they wish, the right to choose their own curriculum in Christian private schools, the right to wish someone "Merry Christmas", the right to have Bible studies in their homes, the right to sing Christmas carols at public schools, etc.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

I have never, ever understood why Christians moan and whine about persecution.

Could it be because no one, whether theist or atheist, likes to be raped, pillaged, beaten, tortured, denied basic human rights, or have their property taken from them?

Did Jesus complain on the cross? Did various martyrs complain? If you die/suffer for your faith is that not, like Islam, sufficient to take you to heaven? Most religions agree it is glorious, so nothing is lost, is it? A pleasure to die and suffer.

And is not the whole point of religion to explain the “awfulness” on Earth? Were Earth Paradise, what point Paradise?

Quote

But talking about a subject and discussing how terrible it is, is not necessarily moaning and whining.

If it is foretold, and you join knowing it to be so, should you complain at all no matter how mildly?

Quote

It is probably no surprise to you that many who call themselves "Christians" actually don't know what is in the book that they profess they believe, so persecution to them is a strange concept.

I am glad to have corresponded with someone who knows what God means exactly. I have heard many, many others say the same thing. But a little proof that you and you only are right, would be reassuring.

Quote

Quote

If everyone stopped persecuting Christians, would that not mean that Paul knew nothing and was making it up?

No, it would mean that Jesus had returned for the 2nd Coming, because that's the only way persecution of Christians will come to an end.

You mean: 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10 Ha! And that at the cost of 2.8 million dead. Is it worth it? "I am gzusfreke and I endorse this message."

Quote

2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. Do you know the context surrounding this verse? the Jews were putting to death anyone who did not worship God. But it wasn't Christians doing it.

Of course, in earlier centuries this would have seen you roasting on a stake in the market square.

It is not that blaming the Jews was frowned upon following the fraudulent insertion of Matthew:27:25: No, it is because you have denied the Trinity.

Even as Yahweh strode through the Old Testament, He was in fact The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, wasn’t He? All that was done in Yahweh’s name, was done in Christ’s. This presents a problem to your next statement:

Quote

Christians don't have a theocratic nation and have never been told to kill anyone because they don't worship God or Jesus.

The Jews not accepting Christ made absolutely no difference even if Yahweh, the tribal god, had not mentioned His Son[1]: Jesus was there, wasn't He? So which way was He voting?

Quote

No, many Christians have gone into areas where Yahweh is not worshiped and given their lives (Steve Saint and Jim Elliot are good examples) so that the Gospel may go forth and bring redemption from sin to people who had no hope.

Well, of course you are assuming that the native, whoever they were, could not receive “salvation[2]” from their own gods or indeed had gods. You are also dismissing their gods with the same evidence that I use you dismiss yours – and yet you claim I am wrong.

I was interested to read that Steve Saint was paralysed so that God could show how powerful he was, and Jim Elliot was persecuted to death. It is remarkable that belief in an invisible friend will compel some deluded people to do that, isn’t it?

Did you ever wonder what would have happened if the Huaorani had come to Detroit to evangelise? Of course you haven’t.

You have little conception of the damage such people do to the fragile culture of indigenous tribes: why on earth can they not be left alone to pursue their own culture? It is fortunate that at least the Brazilian government has prohibited such mindless vandalism and imperialistic arseholes. (You will note I am passionate about this.)

Quote

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" Again, a text without a context is a pretext.

Oke’li-doh’keli! Have I mentioned how much I appreciate these “Ned Flanderisms”? I collect them.

Quote

This verse is not talking about Christians taking vengeance, it is about God exacting judgment on unbelievers on the day of Christ's return.

So, instead of persecuting, on this occasion, the moral Christian simply agrees to the death of, as I say, one-third of mankind?

I honestly do not believe you have thought of what your superstitions involve. It was OK when genocide was "de rigeur" but not now.

It seems there is a dichotomy between your Gods’ actions and your actions. But you approve of His and do yours. As members, you cannot just step aside from your leader: you support The Party of God.

And Christians themselves? They wish they were as united as the Jews or Muslims (See Galatians 3:28) –that is why there are missionaries and evangelists and enthusiastic amateurs. And why would they want that? Power? God’s Law? A Borg?

Given that Yahweh wants no part in democracy, how do you feel about that? What will happen if you are not in charge to tell them how to be Christians? The Crusades all over again? Cortez? The Albegensians, the Knights Templar? Witches? All the other heretics done to death in the name of the triune Yahweh?

But let us move to the real world in which you know atheists and Muslims get a bad press: all you need do is look at the Tea Party to see the type of narrow-minded, rabble who say they are Christians. Now, you might say, “Well they are not Christian.” I say, "(i) No True Scotsman (ii) even if they aren’t, look what Christianity has done to them."

Christianity has given the USA a bad name. The laughable attempts to eradicate the teaching of evolution, the promotion of creationism, the myth of the flood, Jesus on a Dinosaur with an M-15 and all the other sad commentaries at which the world laughs – but the persecuted don’t give up.

So, in this lesson we have learned that The God of the OT and the God of the NT are the same. Whatever the one did, the other two did, too.

That the few million that were killed in the OT in the name of Yahweh are nothing to the 2.8 Billion (and rising) that Jesus will kill.

Christians look forward to this. If you are not part of the solution, are you part of the problem?

It seems like some, not all, Christians are the “Wait till your father gets home!” type. Only he isn’t coming…

I have never, ever understood why Christians moan and whine about persecution.

Could it be because no one, whether theist or atheist, likes to be raped, pillaged, beaten, tortured, denied basic human rights, or have their property taken from them?

Did Jesus complain on the cross? Did various martyrs complain? If you die/suffer for your faith is that not, like Islam, sufficient to take you to heaven? Most religions agree it is glorious, so nothing is lost, is it? A pleasure to die and suffer.

And is not the whole point of religion to explain the “awfulness” on Earth? Were Earth Paradise, what point Paradise?

Quote

But talking about a subject and discussing how terrible it is, is not necessarily moaning and whining.

If it is foretold, and you join knowing it to be so, should you complain at all no matter how mildly?

Quote

It is probably no surprise to you that many who call themselves "Christians" actually don't know what is in the book that they profess they believe, so persecution to them is a strange concept.

I am glad to have corresponded with someone who knows what God means exactly. I have heard many, many others say the same thing. But a little proof that you and you only are right, would be reassuring.

Quote

Quote

If everyone stopped persecuting Christians, would that not mean that Paul knew nothing and was making it up?

No, it would mean that Jesus had returned for the 2nd Coming, because that's the only way persecution of Christians will come to an end.

You mean: 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10 Ha! And that at the cost of 2.8 million dead. Is it worth it? "I am gzusfreke and I endorse this message."

Quote

2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. Do you know the context surrounding this verse? the Jews were putting to death anyone who did not worship God. But it wasn't Christians doing it.

Of course, in earlier centuries this would have seen you roasting on a stake in the market square.

It is not that blaming the Jews was frowned upon following the fraudulent insertion of Matthew:27:25: No, it is because you have denied the Trinity.

Even as Yahweh strode through the Old Testament, He was in fact The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, wasn’t He? All that was done in Yahweh’s name, was done in Christ’s. This presents a problem to your next statement:

Quote

Christians don't have a theocratic nation and have never been told to kill anyone because they don't worship God or Jesus.

The Jews not accepting Christ made absolutely no difference even if Yahweh, the tribal god, had not mentioned His Son[1]: Jesus was there, wasn't He? So which way was He voting?

Quote

No, many Christians have gone into areas where Yahweh is not worshiped and given their lives (Steve Saint and Jim Elliot are good examples) so that the Gospel may go forth and bring redemption from sin to people who had no hope.

Well, of course you are assuming that the native, whoever they were, could not receive “salvation[2]” from their own gods or indeed had gods. You are also dismissing their gods with the same evidence that I use you dismiss yours – and yet you claim I am wrong.

I was interested to read that Steve Saint was paralysed so that God could show how powerful he was, and Jim Elliot was persecuted to death. It is remarkable that belief in an invisible friend will compel some deluded people to do that, isn’t it?

Did you ever wonder what would have happened if the Huaorani had come to Detroit to evangelise? Of course you haven’t.

You have little conception of the damage such people do to the fragile culture of indigenous tribes: why on earth can they not be left alone to pursue their own culture? It is fortunate that at least the Brazilian government has prohibited such mindless vandalism and imperialistic arseholes. (You will note I am passionate about this.)

Quote

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" Again, a text without a context is a pretext.

Oke’li-doh’keli! Have I mentioned how much I appreciate these “Ned Flanderisms”? I collect them.

Quote

This verse is not talking about Christians taking vengeance, it is about God exacting judgment on unbelievers on the day of Christ's return.

So, instead of persecuting, on this occasion, the moral Christian simply agrees to the death of, as I say, one-third of mankind?

I honestly do not believe you have thought of what your superstitions involve. It was OK when genocide was "de rigeur" but not now.

It seems there is a dichotomy between your Gods’ actions and your actions. But you approve of His and do yours. As members, you cannot just step aside from your leader: you support The Party of God.

And Christians themselves? They wish they were as united as the Jews or Muslims (See Galatians 3:28) –that is why there are missionaries and evangelists and enthusiastic amateurs. And why would they want that? Power? God’s Law? A Borg?

Given that Yahweh wants no part in democracy, how do you feel about that? What will happen if you are not in charge to tell them how to be Christians? The Crusades all over again? Cortez? The Albegensians, the Knights Templar? Witches? All the other heretics done to death in the name of the triune Yahweh?

But let us move to the real world in which you know atheists and Muslims get a bad press: all you need do is look at the Tea Party to see the type of narrow-minded, rabble who say they are Christians. Now, you might say, “Well they are not Christian.” I say, "(i) No True Scotsman (ii) even if they aren’t, look what Christianity has done to them."

Christianity has given the USA a bad name. The laughable attempts to eradicate the teaching of evolution, the promotion of creationism, the myth of the flood, Jesus on a Dinosaur with an M-15 and all the other sad commentaries at which the world laughs – but the persecuted don’t give up.

So, in this lesson we have learned that The God of the OT and the God of the NT are the same. Whatever the one did, the other two did, too.

That the few million that were killed in the OT in the name of Yahweh are nothing to the 2.8 Billion (and rising) that Jesus will kill.

Christians look forward to this. If you are not part of the solution, are you part of the problem?

It seems like some, not all, Christians are the “Wait till your father gets home!” type. Only he isn’t coming…

My comment is in the context of persecution of Christians. Only a minority of Christians so far have seen any real persecution.

I am straight. Do I oppose gay marriage? Yes. Why? Because (it would take a whole 'nother thread to discuss this. I've got my nose in too many others since I am one person trying to answer 7 or 8 people all the time, so I won't be starting that thread.) But let them have the same same tax benefits for domestic partnerships, the same hospital visitation rights, the same insurance breaks, etc. That's fine. And while we at it, let's legalize polygamy (Utah pretty much did last week) and bestiality and child marriage just to be sure we don't exclude or offend anyone.

Why do conversations with Christians about gay relationships always lead to a comment on bestiality? I don’t understand how that progression works. Is it an attempt to be hurtful and insulting?I am fine with the domestic partnership. I am all about equal rights. I don’t know why Christians get to label what the definition of marriage is when marriage is older than Christianity. But I guess when a secular nation does secular things it is persecuting you? Or when a non Christian nation doesn't allow Christians to oppress non Christians that is Christian oppression. Does freedom of/from religion only apply to Christians?

Quote

G-Roll, you too seem like a nice guy that I would like to hang out with eating burgers and drinking an O'Douls with

Sounds like a date! I feel the bonds of a bromance forming

Quote

Christianity is under attack among our Armed Forces and in the public arena (schools, local government). This is public record, which Fox News and World Net Daily can supply you with more than you can imagine of such instances.

America is not a Christian nation. So there is no requirement to keep Christ in Christmas for anyone who isn’t Christian. I don’t understand how demanding non Christians celebrate Jesus birthday rather than secular celebration is Christian oppression. You are free to celebrate Christmas/Jesus anyway you want. Why in your opinion does everyone else have to celebrate the same way you do if America is not a Christian nation?How is a non Christian nation excluding Christianity (and every other religion as well) Christian oppression?

Quote

The day after pill. I'm not hung up so much on birth control before conception, but birth control after conception is murder. Why should religious institutions have to subsidize murder?

Plan B? That prevents ovulation. I would see that as a non abortion , but I am not in any way shape or form a contraceptive expert. Plan B is the only morning after pill I know of. But I could very well be wrong... for once hahahaha!

Quote

I'm not sure why atheists worry about Christians prosecuting them, I don't see any of that but please feel free to send me some weblinks and enlighten me.

Is your post not evidence of Christians oppressing other religions in America? Why should secular public schools have prayer? Should there also be a mandatory Islamic prayer times? Why should a secular government/non Christian government continue to recognize only one religion that does not represent that nation. Remember you and I both agreed that America is not a Christian nation, yet you suggest either it should be or it deserves more recognition than other religions.