While another small peripheral nation (Greece) is about to be placed under tight financial control by the European Union, Scotland prepares to free itself of some of the consequences of the Darien fiasco.

The good news is that lost sovereignty can be regained after 300 years.
The bad news is that it takes 300 years to regain lost sovereignty.

This article is way below Economist's usual standards, and confused & erroneous to boot! Rising English nationalism will not faze Salmond in the least... What the whole Scottish independence - or devo-max - debate is doing is to raise serious questions in the rest of these islands about the Westminster way of governing ... THAT is what alarms UK politicians.. their feeding trough is at risk of bering overturned.

Salmond is the Kasparov of British politics; he is at least twenty moves ahead of poor Cameron on the chessboard. Take devo-max: he has no desire at all for anything less than full independence but knowing that devo-max is a v popular option among his electorate he makes sure that SNP at all costs will not be seen as the party denying this option.
So he makes encouraging noises, lets "civic Scotland" etc. come up with ideas, knowing full well he has set a cat along the pigeons in Westminster where all parties - not least the LIbDems (Gladstone's defendants have been labouring fruitlessly for what.. a 100 years! on home rule proposals) totally conflicted. English resentments will blossom, more English regional devolution demanded, an English parliament - doing a 'Holyrood' to Westminster - mooted, the Welsh will get into the act; what a mess! Westminster and Downing Street daren't open that devo-max worm can.

Meanwhile, all this thorough airing of devo-max over the next two years will work its effect in Scotland. (You can be sure that during this prolonged debate several patronizing remarks by English politicos will further irritate the Scots). Whether devo-max or independence, it is certain a conviction will become internalized in Scottish minds that SOMETHING has to change: the status quo ante will no longer be acceptable. Then, when predictably Cameron & Co bin the devo-max option for fear of the repercussions south of the border, blame will attach solely to the Sassenachs and the referendum will have (through no fault of Salmond's!) two options only: no change or independence. Now which do you think the Scots will choose?

Under-estimate this man at your peril. He is worth ten of any of the current batch of Westminster bozos.

I'm neutral on the specific question of Scottish independence but I went over this discussion to see whether the known anti-Europe posters, Maher, Cutters Prof Morris etc. were again screaming "referendum! Referendum!!"
How come they're silent here?
Or referendum is good only as a weapon against the European union?

This is nonsense. When on any publication irate British posters advocate leaving the EU claiming that they are losing sovereignty, do you see Germans, Italians, Poles, etc... even _caring_ about the subject? If you want to stay, stay. If you want to leave, don't let the door hit you.

Likewise, how is Scotland's independence anyone else's business? Even before talking about English hypocrisy regarding leaving the EU vs Scotts leaving the UK

Everyone ought to be free to go their separate ways. Unamusing jokes about Scotland (like the ridiculous crystal meth comments) are simply NOT funny. Scotland did have a full employment and excellent Shipyards and Railway engineering. Scotland is brilliant. Scottish people are wonderful. It would be a very sad loss for England if Scotland wants to break free. I find it sad we are even talking about it. I say lets all work together under Caroline Lucas and sustainably develop the UK:OK ! Enough said. God save the Queen. UK :OK !

When England was founded, to be English had three conditions: 1.Allegiance to the crown(state) 2. The English language. 3. Christianity.

Swap Christianity for Reason and you roughly get what I think the English have become today.

I think 'Britishness' was invented to be a kind of [imperialist] extension of Englishness to accommodate the rest of the UK and their identities(ironically based on resisting England mostly).Just like the idea of being 'European' that Europhiles tout.

Clearly there's a little bit more to it than that, but, because I do not see myself as Scottish, Irish or Welsh. I can only identify with either being English or British/a UK citizen. Different parts of England vary in culture, in some places to the extent that they're not particularly happy with being called English e.g. Cornwall. But there is definitely an idea of English culture that originates from before Britishness was invented, and that is quite accommodating. I identify with that. I'm English.

As an Englishman I'm happy for the Scots to do whatever they want. I see them as another nation in a partnership.

I don’t honestly see what the Scots have to gain from independence, but they’ve been drifting away for a while and have an ok case for independence. It’s up to them.

The genius of Chaplin. Back in the 40's, critics thought his message came straight from a pipe dream. His message is clear and it’s something we all want. Let's not forget to "fight" for it. He did not blink his eyes during speech and said, "I'm sorry, but I don't want to be an Emperor - that's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone, if possible - Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another; human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness."His speech made me awake of what is going on right now. This man is unbelievable. It's amazing how strong this speech is. It's been decades, and it is as strong as ever. I find it scary and ironic, that this was made so many years ago but applies today more than ever. A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
In a library we are surrounded by many hundreds of dear friends imprisoned by an enchanter in paper and leathern boxes. -Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882) I thank you Firozali A.Mulla DBA

The Scots are such hypocrits, they occupy Ireland for 500 years and demand independence from England. Not that the English are any better! Hey Scotland [and England] why don't get out of Northern Ireland and stop occupying Ireland! I hope Scotland does get its Independence as that may also lead to Irish Unification.

Sure, Northern Ireland would benefit economically from UK separation and integration with the Republic.

Scotland could sink or swim - there are no obvious precedents. In the short term, Scotland's large trade surplus, high productivity and resource wealth all suggest that it might benefit from a split. Long term however, success would also depend on politics, tax, regulation and investment.

There are also merits in a government that is more local, more direct and more sensitive to culture.

Perhaps some of these benefits make it worth the struggle. But none of them justify nonsense about "occupation". If there was a majority in Northern Ireland in favor of Irish unification, it would already have happened - as with Scottish independence. It isn't London's fault, and it doesn't warrant tears or anger - you'll just have to get out and present your rational argument to the public and young people, in terms they can identify with.

Over time, you might help to build a consensus for what you think to be better.

SCOTLAND has so much to gain right now from independence, literally we can cecouple from a sinking ship, which is England, on account of English greedy unsustainable developemt. Look, no riots in Scotland. WE the Scottish can and will do better. WE do not need English hipocrisy and GREEDY colonialism any more. What is ours is OURS: our oil. Now English people are most welcome to come and live here as is anyone, we are open and WE love immigrants, so WELCOME to the FREE state of Scotland. No more London, just Edinburgh ! WE and
The state can build sustainable and socially useful projects like the NHS, Railways, Schools, Homes. THE STATE CAN SAVE Humanity. Liberal capitalism would NEVER have any motivation to do that. Long live the state ! (In the UK we say God save the Queen) because most hospitals and public housing projects are named after a Royal. So that explains why the British are so patriotic, at least. Bring BACK British Rail, FAIR fares now on our trains, GOD save the queen. AND in the name of GOD vote GREEN before the ConDemEd regime sails us straight into the rocks of reality with their unsustainablle love of the rich and their stupid cars. In the meantime, everybody, KNOW your MUSTERSTATIONS and remember: Women and children FIRST ! Captain LAST. Oi, you, Cameron, GET back AWAY from the gold plated lifeboat. Hand over your money to the needy children NOW !

I am writing to enquire which type of Nationalist Crystal Meth you have ingested. I have witnessed the ramblings of a CyberNat but your post intrigues me. I would also like to know, more importantly, is it affordable on the benefits you (perhaps fraudulently) claim and does it comes with 2 x 3/24hr bigot pills.

Dear amicusalba,
Kindly reconsider your comment.
Most Scots are pro UK and pro Westminster but the current set up in the circus of commons is not amusing.
If pushed, Scotland will jump off the UK. David Cameron is trying to lighten the load of his ConDemEd ship the BMV Britannica by throwning off Women and Children to swim with loan sharks. He says business first class men only and no babies at the Olympics. This man is not helping the UK:OK ! Sustainable development is the answer. The Germans have done it and they have FREE universities and have taken up the BRUNEL challenge of sustainable mass travel by their railways and accessible passenger ships. Kindly get real, this is the real world. Women and children first together with the disabled and migrants. If you want to cut benefits, build some affordable homes first ! Do NOT steal lifejackets from women and children and STOP feeding the most vulnerable passengers to LOAN SHARKS. Lets WORK together, those of us who want to and who CAN work, lets work together to make the UK:OK !
Best wishes to everyone for a victorious olympic 2012. We have ONE last chance, lets build together !
UK:OK Please, Scottish readers, help us make the UK:OK for everyone. Sorry about the ConDemEd, NOBODY voted for their policies of colossal economic failure.

Bagehot - why no mention of the Welsh or Northern Ireland (both part of the UK when I last checked)? We're used to this from Salmond - it suits his cause to confuse the rest of the UK with the English, but you should know better.

The Council of Europe stated in 1997 that it "11. Considers that major problems of local democracy exist in the following countries: Croatia, Bulgaria, Latvia, Moldova, Ukraine and the United Kingdom;" https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?Ref=RES%281997%29058&Language=lanEnglish....
The devolution of Scotland and Wales and the proposed (but rejected) regional assemblies for England were as a direct result of this (or the UK would have lost its place in the Council).
The Scotland Act sought to ensure that no party could attain a majority in Scotland thus protecting against calls for independence and the rhetoric from Westminster has sought to weaken the economic argument for separation by promoting the fiction that Scotland is economically dependent on England. Mr Cameron,aided and abetted by Mr Clegg and Mr Miliband in his attempts to dictate the timing and content of a referendum in Scotland has not only caused a rise in the polls for and independent Scotland, he has unleashed claims for an English Parliament as well. The Scottish people voted massively for the SNP in the last election (defeating the attempts to prevent this outcome), who promised a referendum on the question of independence in their manifesto and stating before the election when it would be.
It is not Mr Salmond who "is seeking to make the English into foreigners, and deny millions of hyphenated Britons, from Anglo-Scots to black British, the country in which they feel at home, Britain" Britain is NOT a country, it is a Union of countries and this attempt at mudslinging, like those attempts by Mr Cameron and cronies (of whatever political flavour) makes the break up of the Union more rather than less likely by stirring up tribal rivalries on both sides of the border. Take a tip from the the voices of reason Bagehot, stick to the facts (not the rhetoric) and let the wisdom of the people decide the matter.

This is a fairly disgusting article, and the writer should be called to account for it. Its both horrific and offensive to link the desire to separate from westminster to bigotry. It is also unjust to assume that everyone who wishes for independance is doing so due to a bigoted empty-headed form of nationalism.
There are important arguments for and against independance and we need a well researched piece that looks into both arguments. Not a offensive distraction like this.

This is the level the British MSM will go to, and believe me it will get worse. Already reports in a daily rag about the SNLA threatening to attack the British Government, first extremist article of the referendum campaign! And guranteed there will be more!

All these old journalists really don't understand the world we live in today. Information is instant and events are broadcast within minutes. They can no longer get away with saying or writing whatever they like without it being questioned for days, perhaps weeks.

It is easy to see that this article has been written by someone inside the M25 beltway. From scanning all London based media, it is perfectly clear that London/England certainly doesn't get Scotland.
Let me point out a few home truths to you.
1. The SNP is not Scotlands only independence party but it is by far, the largest.
2. Scotland is a nation and one in a Treaty of Union with England, a supposed Treaty of equals. English Law is not subservient to Scots Law and vice versa. The Blair created Supreme Court in London has no place in Scots Law.
3. Scotland seeks self-determination. A perfectly laudible aspiration for a recognisable nation as viewed in international convention.
4. Our emascualted parliament as devised by Blair and subsequently ignored by Labour is not fit for purpose as it stands as Scots cannot influence or defend its economy from the nonsense being perperated in the other country.
5. We have nuclear weapons based on our soil against the express wishes of nearly 100% of the Scots people.
6. We are an energy rich nation with massive fuel poverty partly created by an adminsitration in Westminster that relishes placing horredous levels of tax on a volitile world commodity.
7. Our fishing industry, once crucial to our coastal communities, has bee pawned off by Westmister policitians despite our appeals to the contrary.
8. Westminster and the Union no longer serve the people of Scotland and either needs to ba abolished as it stands or re-invented. Failure to do so will see Scotland leave the Union in short measure.
9. We, the Scots can appeal to the Council of Europe to plead our case and, it will be heard. We cn request the OSCE to supervise our referendum away from the cronies who populate the Electoral Commission. Who could see anything wrong with that.
10. And lastly, in persuit of our desire for self -determination we can appeal to the United Nations for protection from perfisious Albion. The Helsinki Final Act and the Vienna Accord, to which the UK is a signatory protects the rights of Scots in this regard, from unwarranted interference from a mother state (UK)England in determining our future. This appeal is only days away.

This could have been written by Salmond's spin doctor, or even King Eckie himself. Only the spelling gives it away as the diatribe of an uneducated bigot.
I implore everybody to see Salmond on First Minister's Questions. There you will get the measure of the man. A man who shouts and bawls at his opponents, rants and raves like a man possessed. His cronies behind him laugh and shout like hyenas at anybody who doesn't agree with the SNP line. The You Tube Hitler/ Salmond spoof is spot on.

Thankfully, the majority of Scots also think of themselves as British, and we have no intention of handing over our country to this snake oil salesman and his hangers on.

Jocko all politicians shout and bawl at thier opponents, what are you on about?

Also the youtube video "Salmond in kick erse mode" is a great representation of the mann. jocko are you a labour supporter?

Also watch Salmond on Quetsion Time in Liverpool and then tell he who got the most applause from the aaudience. That "snake oil salesman" is trying to get control of our resources for the benefit of Scotland. Have you read the McCrone Report?

Point 5: Faslane will be interesting. The Government of the United Kingdom has in effect given a perpetual lease to the Ministry of Defence for Faslane to be used as a nuclear base. If the MOD then becomes an England/Wales/NI institution, Scotland can not legally appropriate the base, any more than it can appropriate Tesco stores because they're English.

To close Faslane Scotland would need to fund a new base in England, pay for the transfer costs, and manage the subsequent unemployed (though I assume the workers would mostly move to the new base).

Not the same report, as a fellow Scotsman I feel it is my duty to make as many of my fellow Scots aware of this document as I can. The McCrone report is a 19 page document written by a Professor Gavin McCrone for the Conservative UK Government in 1974 and presented to the Cabinet Office in 1975. Its subject was the viability of an independent Scotland and its content was considered so sensitive that it was classified as an official secret. It remained buried out of public view for 30 years before a freedom of information request unearthed it in 2005.

Most internal government research is mandated as secret, drop the silly conspiracy theories.
Hanging the entire argument for independence on a 40 year old report from a single source reeks of desperation.

Lets not jump to conclusions that this is the be all and end all of having independence. This document only highlights the the lies of successive Westminster Governments telling us we are too poor, too wee and too stupid to run our own country.

I have already said it in this blog in another comment that it is a good start for anyone to want to build a case against the union.

So as well as Scotland's currency and its currency's central bank, Scotland's entire financial system will also be foreign owned? On top of all the redundancies as the UK pulls out all its state subsidies and military spending back to England and Wales?

There is so much wrong with these arguments for independence that it looks like Salmond is either a delusional megalomaniac or a cynical liar.

"The SNP leader has a right to argue for Scottish independence. But to make that case, he is seeking to make the English into foreigners, and deny millions of hyphenated Britons, from Anglo-Scots to black British, the country in which they feel at home, Britain. That is not a progressive act, nor a modern one. Warm words about friendship between neighbours cannot excuse it."

At a time when people in general should perhaps be trying to find ways to come together, it is sad to see some trying so hard to split us apart. Will the pull of nationalism end one day? Or could it at least be replaced with a more benign form of tribalism, if there ever was such a thing?