So there are normal converts and normal cradles but I would like to discuss the third group: cradles that are fascinated by converts (I think I belong to this group).

I am fascinated by people who have chosen Orthodoxy intentionally. I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

When I once told my mother I was going to go to an American/English speaking Orthodox church she said: how can there be one? When I explained her she still didn't quite get it and kept saying:" why would an American become Orthodox? "

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I had a cradle ask me why I became Orthodox since I am American once. It wasn't asked offensively, just totally out of curiosity. As many of you know, I am an Old Calendarist and our Church's title is "Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians." This came in handy because I pointed to some literature or something and remarked, "if this is the genuine church, shouldn't everybody come here?" and she kind of thought about it and agreed.

I think Greeks may be different than Romanians on this point though; Greeks pride themselves on being the originators of Western Civilization, etc, so in many more cases, Greeks just assume it's normal to convert because Hellenic church, culture, language is obviously the best so what is there to discuss?

Finally, there are some cradles I have met who are really happy to see people converting to Orthodoxy and it makes them want to live their faith stronger.

That's why I like parishes that have a good mix of cradles and converts. It's a really rewarding experience to build one another up and learn from each other.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

So there are normal converts and normal cradles but I would like to discuss the third group: cradles that are fascinated by converts (I think I belong to this group).

I am fascinated by people who have chosen Orthodoxy intentionally. I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

I'm another one who dislikes the cradle/convert dichotomy. We all choose to be Orthodox at some point in our lives.

Perhaps I could ask you why you choose to be Orthodox? The question really isn't any different. When a "cradle" Orthodox Christian asks me if I'm a "convert", my response is often, "I'm Orthodox by choice - just like you."

But to look at your question a little closer: Those of us who came to Orthodoxy later in life come out of another tradition, Christian or non-Christian. For me it was difficult to leave a Protestant denomination where I had been a member for over fifty years, and where my parents and grandparents (and some great-grandparents) had been members as well. It was not an easy decision. I really had to do my homework and find out what the Orthodox Church was all about. I doubt that my experience is unique. It's because of this study that we latecomers often come across as "more intellectual" and appearing to know more about the Orthodox faith than those who have not experienced another Christian tradition.

It's healthy to have a good mix in a congregation. That's how we all grow in our faith.

Well, most of the cradles I know choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

That being said, I agree with Father's thoughts on what I have quoted, but like many of us, I take some offense to the formal name of his jurisdiction. (Nothing personal, but I needed to say that.)

Fair enough. I can understand why you feel that way. When we went to register at the local offices back in 1924, though, "Orthodox Church of Greece" was already taken and we certainly weren't going to call ourselves Old Calendarists (that was originally seen as an insulting term)

Knowing how many Greek arguments progress, I can sort of imagine how this played out.

New Calendar person: "You want to register your Church as Orthodox? No! You are a schismatic Old Calendarist!"Old Calendar person: "Oh yeah?! Well you are a schismatic New Calendarist, and we are the Genuine Orthodox!"New Calendar person: "Oh yeah? Well you are graceless!"Old Calendar person: "Oh YEAH?! Well you are graceless!"

I'm not making a commentary on any of the underlying issues or points of contention, which I do believe to be serious and would not want to reduce to equivocation...but I am sort of making light of the way it probably got discussed based on witnessing some Church arguments over the past few years.

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

So there are normal converts and normal cradles but I would like to discuss the third group: cradles that are fascinated by converts (I think I belong to this group).

I am fascinated by people who have chosen Orthodoxy intentionally. I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

I'm another one who dislikes the cradle/convert dichotomy. We all choose to be Orthodox at some point in our lives.

Perhaps I could ask you why you choose to be Orthodox? The question really isn't any different. When a "cradle" Orthodox Christian asks me if I'm a "convert", my response is often, "I'm Orthodox by choice - just like you."

But to look at your question a little closer: Those of us who came to Orthodoxy later in life come out of another tradition, Christian or non-Christian. For me it was difficult to leave a Protestant denomination where I had been a member for over fifty years, and where my parents and grandparents (and some great-grandparents) had been members as well. It was not an easy decision. I really had to do my homework and find out what the Orthodox Church was all about. I doubt that my experience is unique. It's because of this study that we latecomers often come across as "more intellectual" and appearing to know more about the Orthodox faith than those who have not experienced another Christian tradition.

It's healthy to have a good mix in a congregation. That's how we all grow in our faith.

I don't mind the cradle/convert distinction. It only becomes a problem when value is given to those titles. It is a description, not a rank. My father is an apple grower so my childhood summers and autumns were spent largely in the orchards. When customers would walk into the store on our farm many of them would comment about how wonderful the smell of apples was. It was not uncommon for them to say, "You are so lucky to be surrounded by this wonderful fragrance all the time." My response would always be, "You are the lucky one because you can notice it." As a convert, the first time I venerated the icon of Christ was overwhelming. I remember it distinctly. It was a stepping off point and I had a head rush of excitement and terror and I wasn't totally sure that I believed what I was doing, but at the same time being certain that it was true. The first time I was given the sacrament of communion is a similar memory. When I described that to a woman at church she said, "I envy you. I wish I knew what that was like", while I look at a life lived in the Church and I say, "I envy you. I wish I knew what that was like". We speak often of the synergy of God and man, but perhaps we also need to stress the synergy of brothers and sisters in Christ. Cradles present me with the experience of a life lived sacramentally and with perseverance and I can show them how sweet it smells. So we can look at each other and genuinely say that the other is the lucky one. And we are both right.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Gee, writing in a foreign language interferes something. I don't mean cradles are better or converts are better. That's not my point. I only think that these two groups are distinctive.

Michal,Nothing you said came across that way. I used your post as a jumping off point and the entirety of my post wasn't a direct response to you. Sorry about that. I should have been more clear. I am in complete agreement that the groups are distinctive.

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

That's because many think those are the ONLY two options. There is a whole middle ground as well. One can be a non-cradle Orthodox, not adopt ethnic Orthodox practices and still remain Orthodox. Eventually this will be the path Orthodoxy must take in North America if it is to thrive. But that's another discussion entirely.

That's because many think those are the ONLY two options. There is a whole middle ground as well. One can be a non-cradle Orthodox, not adopt ethnic Orthodox practices and still remain Orthodox. Eventually this will be the path Orthodoxy must take in North America if it is to thrive. But that's another discussion entirely.

My main point, especially for Michal's sake (since he has very limited exposure to converts), is that the commitment he admires is sometimes superficial and short lived.

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

That's because many think those are the ONLY two options. There is a whole middle ground as well. One can be a non-cradle Orthodox, not adopt ethnic Orthodox practices and still remain Orthodox. Eventually this will be the path Orthodoxy must take in North America if it is to thrive. But that's another discussion entirely.

Or, one can be a cradle Orthodox and reject ethnic Orthodox practices and attitudes as normative. In any approach there are pitfalls. Use of the intellect can be a problem if it is not accompanied by true worship and prayer. Non-use of the intellect may be a problem, even when in the context of true prayer and worship, as it can lead to fetishes and cults. The same goes for ethnic practices, or simply adherence to "what is received": we must know WHAT we are doing and WHY we are doing them. Any blind or uncritical approach poses the possibility of serious deviations.

Regarding converts, I think that they do know the WHAT and WHY better than cradles. If they are overly intellectual in their approach and do not pray and worship in earnest, with all their hearts and minds, their faith is a shallow one and would indeed result in their separation from the Church. I think that the problem here is imbalance. A fascinating article by Metropolitan Hilarion of Volomsk, Atheism and Orthodoxy in Modern Russia, also points out that the vaunted piety of the Orthodox faithful did not prevent their apostasy to Godless Communism. http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_8

If I were to choose between the two groups, I would choose the converts but I would include in this group cradles who "converted" as adults, that is, those of use who grew up in an ethnic environment but, not being afraid to use our God-given minds, educated themselves and are using discernment as befits any disciple of the Lord. I should add that I am specifically excluding anyone, convert or cradle, who is a nominal Church member. In short, one cannot just believe or just worship--you have to do both.

I think it is only the converts themselves who are fascinated by converts. Converts are always so eager to "share". Most of us cradles go to churches where everyone is like us and we are busy with our own lives and families and our own little corner of the world.

As i have mentioned before, I get asked freuqently, why are you considering becoming Orthodox by parishioners, whether cradle or convert. Always well meaning.

The usually within the question ask whether I am RC or if my fiancée or wife is Orthodox.

When I answer neither, they act like it is a head scratcher.

I experienced the same thing when I was going to a Greek parish, I found it funny because our priest was himself a convert from the Southern Baptist denomination. I think it is just that it is rather recent (within the past generation) that Protestants have been looking into Orthodoxy in earnest, partly due to the collapse of the mainline, liturgical-tradition denominations and partly due to the emptiness of Evangelical traditions that is felt each time a new generation comes into power (a tradition that is only as old as your great-grandparents is going to seem mighty weak once you start questioning it).

Another thing I find funny is the parishes I have attended with half or greater percentage of converts have been overwhelmingly made up of converts from more Protestant and Evangelical backgrounds and also tend to have several different ethnicities making up the cradles. I can only imagine how these parishes could look to cradles like children "playing Orthodox". At the OCA church I've been attending most recently I had a fellow parishoner come up to me during the Hours and ask if it was still okay to light a candle. This was funny to me on two levels: 1) The entire time I've been Orthodox I have also been too broke to afford candles (fifty cents is quite a bit when you're taking several buses and the city doesn't have transfers) so I haven't lit all that many myself and 2) Not only have I been officially Orthodox for only 8 months now, but until very recently I had never been to a parish that did Hours before Liturgy as opposed to Orthros. I shudder to think what "traditions" I might be inadvertently passing on to other converts who might be watching me and thinking "this guy seems to know what he's doing". I laugh to think of the cradles who might see me and thinking "what's with this guy? He crosses himself like a Greek, reverences icons like an Arab, greets a priest like a Russian, and who knows where he learned how to do a metania."

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

As i have mentioned before, I get asked freuqently, why are you considering becoming Orthodox by parishioners, whether cradle or convert. Always well meaning.

The usually within the question ask whether I am RC or if my fiancée or wife is Orthodox.

When I answer neither, they act like it is a head scratcher.

I experienced the same thing when I was going to a Greek parish, I found it funny because our priest was himself a convert from the Southern Baptist denomination. I think it is just that it is rather recent (within the past generation) that Protestants have been looking into Orthodoxy in earnest, partly due to the collapse of the mainline, liturgical-tradition denominations and partly due to the emptiness of Evangelical traditions that is felt each time a new generation comes into power (a tradition that is only as old as your great-grandparents is going to seem mighty weak once you start questioning it).

Another thing I find funny is the parishes I have attended with half or greater percentage of converts have been overwhelmingly made up of converts from more Protestant and Evangelical backgrounds and also tend to have several different ethnicities making up the cradles. I can only imagine how these parishes could look to cradles like children "playing Orthodox". At the OCA church I've been attending most recently I had a fellow parishoner come up to me during the Hours and ask if it was still okay to light a candle. This was funny to me on two levels: 1) The entire time I've been Orthodox I have also been too broke to afford candles (fifty cents is quite a bit when you're taking several buses and the city doesn't have transfers) so I haven't lit all that many myself and 2) Not only have I been officially Orthodox for only 8 months now, but until very recently I had never been to a parish that did Hours before Liturgy as opposed to Orthros. I shudder to think what "traditions" I might be inadvertently passing on to other converts who might be watching me and thinking "this guy seems to know what he's doing". I laugh to think of the cradles who might see me and thinking "what's with this guy? He crosses himself like a Greek, reverences icons like an Arab, greets a priest like a Russian, and who knows where he learned how to do a metania."

This is my problem about when in Rome. I am in many cities and countries at the parish I visit. I just don't know what to do at times.

I've seen folks here criticize converts for doing things they probably don't understand like a metanoia. But how do children learn?

My next talk with my Priest is going to be about among others things: can you just assign me a person to follow because I want to get involved more "bodily" in the liturgy? There are points in the Divine Liturgy where "cradles" are crossing themselves, doing a metanoia, not crossing themselves, bowing their heads, bowing at the waist, fully prostrating, or crossing themselves with what I can only describe as an "x" shaped cross simultaneously.

What am I to do? At our first talk, he said to do whatever you feel comfortable with, but now there are aspects I want to participate in, but don't have a clue about what to do. I am not saying any of the above are wrong or right, but it would be nice to have a consistent practice to follow.

Strange moment:

I was standing as the Communion line was forming once and Orthodox Romanian fellow evidently new to the States, asked why some people were taking Communion and others not.

I told him to talk to the Priest.

The thing that interests others as well is that I haven't been "churched" since about 14 years of age.

Well, most of the cradles I know choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

I really don't understand why you make such blanket statements. What does it proove. You cannot apply your iterpretation of personal discussions to the whole world of Orthodoxy.

Well, most of the cradles I know choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

I really don't understand why you make such blanket statements. What does it proove. You cannot apply your iterpretation of personal discussions to the whole world of Orthodoxy.

Why shouldn't he make observations about the Orthodox he knows? I don't think he was trying to prove anything, but simply writing from his experience.

Well, most of the cradles I know choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

I really don't understand why you make such blanket statements. What does it proove.

Well, mostnot 'all' of the cradles I knownot 'I imagine' choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

Quote

You cannot apply your iterpretation of personal discussions to the whole world of Orthodoxy.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

Don't mean to come off as contentious, but how would you know?

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

So there are normal converts and normal cradles but I would like to discuss the third group: cradles that are fascinated by converts (I think I belong to this group).

I am fascinated by people who have chosen Orthodoxy intentionally. I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

Interesting topic, Michał. There are a few cradle Orthodox (both EO and OO) on this forum that I'm always in awe of. I won't disclose their identities, but I always learn something edifying when they speak about their faith.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Well, most of the cradles I know choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

I really don't understand why you make such blanket statements. What does it proove. You cannot apply your iterpretation of personal discussions to the whole world of Orthodoxy.

It kind of describes where I come from: we believe in God and all, but specifically Orthodox we stay out of loyalty to a tradition that so happens to overlap with an ethnic group, an extended family etc.I don't even need a proof that Orthodoxy is right or wrong (a claim impossible to prove like a theorem), because it still wouldn't make me switch to "the true church" whatever that is.

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

Don't mean to come off as contentious, but how would you know?

Nearly 20 years of personal experience as a convert, worshiping and in leadership at various levels of Orthodox parishes, dioceses, pan-Orthodox groups, etc., in seven states. Just attend any national jurisdictional meeting, or a regional clergy gathering, and talk to the priests who have been serving for 20 to 50 years.

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

Don't mean to come off as contentious, but how would you know?

Nearly 20 years of personal experience as a convert, worshiping and in leadership at various levels of Orthodox parishes, dioceses, pan-Orthodox groups, etc., in seven states. Just attend any national jurisdictional meeting, or a regional clergy gathering, and talk to the priests who have been serving for 20 to 50 years.

I would concur based on experience and direct knowledge. This goes for clergy converts as well as laity.

So there are normal converts and normal cradles but I would like to discuss the third group: cradles that are fascinated by converts (I think I belong to this group).

I am fascinated by people who have chosen Orthodoxy intentionally. I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

As a convert I'm fascinated at the level of commitment of some cradles. I have seen some converts come and go, and this worries me. I feel that a convert needs more than just intellectual knowledge. They also need to find a way to integrate. For some, marrying a cradle is the way to do that. For others, it's going to a parish with a decent amount of converts. But staying power is necessary.

I am also fascinated with how some cradles are able to keep the fasts with ease. I admire that, and I respect that......for I find fasting extremely difficult.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:37:05 PM by jnorm888 »

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

Are there any tendencies in the reasons why converts leave? Do they go back to their former faith, to another?

The 3 examples I personally know of:

1.) Was raised nominal protestant christian, became an atheist, then became a muslim, then an Orthodox Christian, then a noncalvinist protestant for a couple weeks, and now a Calvinistic protestant.

His reasons for leaving are different from how I view his reasons for leaving. I won't go into the details here, but after being denied to go to seminary by the bishop or ignored by the bishop for some time(I told him....well after the fact, but I told him that it would normally be a 3 to 5 year wait for converts. When he applied, he was only Orthodox for about a year I think. I could be wrong about the exact timing, but I'm not off by much) , he changed to be a protestant and applied to a protestant seminary.......where he is at now. He feels that that's not the reason and that it was really over the issue of sola scriptura and other beliefs that were more in line with Calvinism. But whatever the case, it is what it is. He's gone.

2.) Was raised pentecostal protestant, but at an early age....like 6 or 7 he asked his parents if he could be Roman Catholic, they agreed, and that's what he was till his mid to late 30's. He became Orthodox, and a few years later decided to become Roman Catholic again. He loved Thomas Aquinas, and he always had a hard time with how the Orthodox understood things. He would always compare it with Aquinas. He also was very ecumenical. He would try very hard to get the Copts, Roman Catholics and Orthodox together. Well, let's just say that he didn't have patience. He pushed a bit too hard and a priest had a word with him, and I don't think he liked it. He stopped going to church continually after that. And then he just stopped coming completely.

Yes, there was some outside influence as well. Like work, and other issues like that. But he is a Roman Catholic now.

3.) Was raised baptist and became Orthodox in his late teenage years. However, he was struggling with doubt and atheism the whole time. Two years after being chrismated he gave in to his struggle. He gave in to his doubts. He would always read atheistic books, as well as christian books. And he joined an atheistic forum undercover. And one day at work in the library.....maybe like a year or so later, he started to read two books about psychology and religion. One of the authors of the book was Japanese. I forgot who authored the other one. But the books were looking at the issue from an atheistic and secular perspective or bent, and he just ate it up. It gave him the excuse he was looking for. And so he gave in fully to his doubts. Something that he was struggling with for years. Now as far as I know, he is still an atheist, and he is hanging out with another atheist who is promiscuous and into narcotics.

I was personally hurt by 2 out of the 3 personal cases I listed above. The Roman Catholic one I didn't feel bad about. For he was always talking about Thomas Aquinas and he was always putting ideas and things into categories. And so I kinda felt happy for him. But yeah, I was hurt by the other two. It took a few months for me to get over it. And now I can understand why some cradles have the attitude that they have about some converts.....or converts in general.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 02:22:50 PM by jnorm888 »

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

It kind of describes where I come from: we believe in God and all, but specifically Orthodox we stay out of loyalty to a tradition that so happens to overlap with an ethnic group, an extended family etc.I don't even need a proof that Orthodoxy is right or wrong (a claim impossible to prove like a theorem), because it still wouldn't make me switch to "the true church" whatever that is.

Good answer. I find a lot of comfort in being part of an Orthodox family and knowing that I can ask my parents and grandparents about their religious experiences. That my parents have taught me my prayers from childhood. I love that sense of continuity with the past, especially when we celebrate major feast days and go to church together. I like the way my elders, especially grandparents explain things and their loyalty to our Orthodox church.Being Orthodox is not just an intellectual choice and working out "proof" that our Orthodox Church is the right church.Just because a cradle Orthodox has not gone through the same experience as a convert in making an intellectual choice does not mean that a cradle's faith is NOT as fervent.

I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

A significant percentage of converts (especially ones with an intellectual approach) either (a) end up adopting cradle attitudes and practices or (b) leave the Orthodox Church entirely after several years.

Don't mean to come off as contentious, but how would you know?

Nearly 20 years of personal experience as a convert, worshiping and in leadership at various levels of Orthodox parishes, dioceses, pan-Orthodox groups, etc., in seven states. Just attend any national jurisdictional meeting, or a regional clergy gathering, and talk to the priests who have been serving for 20 to 50 years.

What of the craddles that leave, as compared to (b)?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I know just what you mean. we (converts) are, indeed, an interesting breed. many cradles have told me that they envy converts for the knowledge they have about the Church, as we are useually required to take classes to join. at Orthodox winter youth camp, about half of us were converts. and about 2/3 of those converts didn't have much choice, and converted with their parents as toddlers. I had many people come up to me and ask me for my story, what the biggest challenges were, etc.

When I once told my mother I was going to go to an American/English speaking Orthodox church she said: how can there be one? When I explained her she still didn't quite get it and kept saying:" why would an American become Orthodox? "

when a group of us went down to the Greek Church, I got funny looks and was asked the same thing, as I'm obviouslt an american (and a teenager, no less).

So there are normal converts and normal cradles but I would like to discuss the third group: cradles that are fascinated by converts (I think I belong to this group).

I am fascinated by people who have chosen Orthodoxy intentionally. I often disappointed about cradles' approach to faith and I prefer converts' more intellectual approach. I wish the cradles knew half about the Orthodoxy converts do.

Any thoughts?

I'm another one who dislikes the cradle/convert dichotomy. We all choose to be Orthodox at some point in our lives.

Perhaps I could ask you why you choose to be Orthodox? The question really isn't any different. When a "cradle" Orthodox Christian asks me if I'm a "convert", my response is often, "I'm Orthodox by choice - just like you."

exactly. no one comes out of the womb already Orthodox, we all convert

Well, most of the cradles I know choose to remain Orthodox because it's customary or because it's an ethnic feature or because they can't imagine converting, no because they mindfully think the Orthodoxy is right.

I really don't understand why you make such blanket statements. What does it proove. You cannot apply your iterpretation of personal discussions to the whole world of Orthodoxy.

It kind of describes where I come from: we believe in God and all, but specifically Orthodox we stay out of loyalty to a tradition that so happens to overlap with an ethnic group, an extended family etc.I don't even need a proof that Orthodoxy is right or wrong (a claim impossible to prove like a theorem), because it still wouldn't make me switch to "the true church" whatever that is.

What do you expect your grandchildren to have then?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Has there ever been a period during Orthodoxy where cradles were required to take catechesis at a certain age?

there never used to be, but my parish recently started a sunday school for all of the children. perhapse when I'm not the only teenager, there will be a formal catechism class for teens and young adults.