***current*** society, that ADD (in itself) is not a disorder per se (no matter how much it might appear to be irreversibly and intimately intertwined with contextual disorder) and that although 'society' and its pressures are all-pervasive, and these hidden pressures lead to the contextual disorder which is felt by ADDers ... that these pressures will be 'felt' by the ADDer, thence the co-morbids co-segregate, is *not* (by any means) ... a foregone conclusion.
ADD can exist in a purer form without contextual disorder, and it is my honest opinion that stimulants work for the pure ...:-)... of ADD, pretty much as one would expect ... as one would expect.

To see pure ADHD "thinking", we should look at the mind of a person diagnosed with ADHD.

Here are some characteristics:

- ability to process ideas in parrellel, instead of serially.
- the mind is constantly going. (i.e. waking up in the middle of the night with a solution to a problem)
- ability to answer a question correctly without working through and showing the steps involved
- quick witted
- understand the concept of "self-awareness" at a young age
- constantly seeking stimulation (knowledge, excitement)
- ability to hyperfocus on a something that is of interest

Maybe, if the young mind of a child is just given the opportunity to "be" these characteristics and not have to fit to another's expectations, then they might not develop these things called "co-morbids". Of course, then they wouldn't be "co-morbids".

Wow I wonder if we became more wiggle friendly if some of the children with milder forms of ADD would even need to take medications?

I also have wondered how much of the co-morbids have results from being expected to do the impossible for years as a young child. The impossibel for me sitting still!

OMG - computers, digital logic - ahhhhhhhhh.
Being able to see and CHANGE the big picture - especially with systems and finding holes in logic and interpreting specifications and all that gobbly-gook. I could recall conversations from years back and freak people out. Technical details - became a part of me. I was very good at what I did and I was rewarded.

Then again you might take the Hunter Brain theory into consideration. Suppose the child is born into a so-called "primitive" society and raised in a culture that values the Hunter, who must constantly scan the surroundings, who must be able to hyperfocus during the hunt and change courses according to split-second decisions. Suppose nobody in that culture expects anything of the one born to Hunt other than the abilities that will make this child a great Hunter, and the person is never expected to be still, to think in a linear fashion, to attend to boring tasks?

If the person is ADD in a society that values those traits, is it then a disorder? Or is it a valuable trait that brings to them great honor?

I like this one valuable trait!

I think the environment we are expected to perform in has a lot to more to do with how severe our ADD traits are,? Perhaps more so than that we were lead to believe!

__________________... ... and so in ConclusionADHD[== sensitivity at empathic, systematizing and sensory levels] represents the painedsensory overload emergence of a metabolically efficientpro-social species in an anti-social environment.
It's all about (materialismtobeauty) survival.

I still can't sit still for too long, unless I'm doing something interesting, nor does it stop me, from impulsively interrupting others while they're talking, being over enthusiastic, gabby, or feeling restless at times.

Nova

__________________- You don't seem, like a very good Vampire...
What, is it, that you, do?

And I wonder how I knew I sensed that I ought to tune in to ADDF before medication today? Perhaps I smelled it, and it smelled good to me.

I wonder all the time, how "severely impaired" I would be considered in a culture where the feelings transmitted to my brain by my bare feet meant something other than "You have to mop this floor again, you slacker!".

How "brusque", how "rude", would I seem in a place and time where the ability of a female to hunt was equally as valuable as the ability of a man, and was encouraged? How would my daughters fare?

I think context is very important here, and there are many characteristics that define my level of functioning (this mostly pertains to work situations). Unfortunately, many of those characteristics become visible when other people become involved in a particular situation. The reason why I mention that is because the more people that are involved working towards the same goal, the less ways possible to compensate (at least, for me) as I am forced to operate in some common way, which tends to be boring and repetitive. That's not to say that I don't have troubles alone, because I do. And that's also not to say that dealing with people is always a problem, because it's definitely not. That's simply the trend I've observed (in my very limited amount of experience, so take it with a grain of salt).

Some examples: I find it difficult to work at the pace of others. As far as getting work done, I'm all or nearly nothing. No in between, meaning I'm either working at rapidly or ploddingly slow, irrespective of interest. Often times, if I were in the same situation working at my own speed (provided that the interest is there), I can perform quite well, provided that I can do this continuously (no slow downs). Otherwise known as hyperfocus.

Noisy environments with a lot of variance in levels are a major problem. All the usual detractors. Telephones, noisy people, etc. I don't have anything against their mode of work, but I don't want to be a part of it. This is a big factor in performance.

Disinterest... not utilizing strengths (nonlinear). Repetition. It tends to be a very "do one thing and do it well" world out there, unfortunately. That's what the people one works with often expect.

Schedules... We're not naturally adept to such, but at least there are many compensation strategies one could possibly use to mitigate such problems. I need actual reminders, though. I can't rely on myself to check schedules repeatedly, but an electronic means is a possibility.

In the situations where people with ADHD characteristics may be common, I think the context tends to be adapted to the person, not the other way around. Not having set work hours, drawing on innovation, and so on. There are environments that don't attempt to fit everyone into some narrow predefined scheme, believe it or not.

So yes, I do see it as a contextual disorder, though most contexts tend to conflict with it.

__________________Disclaimer: none of the posts on this forum should be taken as medical advice. Optimally, always seek the opinion of multiple experienced professionals, note any discrepancies, and use your best judgment, as well as research, to determine what is true, untrue, and neither (opinion).

The setting is the context. Like giggling uncontrollably at a wake. So giggling is not usually a problem, but not acceptable during solemn occasions.
Like being a hunter in a farmer society or a farmer in a hunter society, but not farmer in a farmer society, etc.
Unless you're a bad farmer, then you're rrrrreally in trouble....

I wonder all the time, how "severely impaired" I would be considered in a culture where the feelings transmitted to my brain by my bare feet meant something other than "You have to mop this floor again, you slacker!".

I almost inhaled soda reading this-lol Too funny. What if there were no floors to mop?

What if you were rich enough to afford to get some one else to do it

What if the feeling being transmitted to your brain by your feet was that of carpet grass, St Augustine perhaps how impaired would you be?

*not* impaired at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highfunctioning

I think the context tends to be adapted to the person, not the other way around.

Excellent point going.

Do we not to some degree choose our context?

By the way I hate phones especially the ones at work? I want to disconnect them and put them out side (to get some sun shine or rain=away from me) so I do not have to hear them ring more importantly I will not be expected to answer them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nova

I still can't sit still for too long, unless I'm doing something interesting, nor does it stop me, from impulsively interrupting others while they're talking, being over enthusiastic, gabby, or feeling restless at times.

If every one were enthusiastic, gabby, ect. . . that how abnormal would it be?

In my family not having ADD is abnormal. If a NTer came in the midst of of a family gathering all except the well ADDer “adapted” (my poor mom) would be like totally lost. In my family having ADD is normal and yes lots of movement, walking bouncing with talking, interrupting is how you get into the conversation cause aint no one going to shut up and wait patiently for you to speak, most conversations have at least as many subjects as people involved and yes we can keep up. . . .there is a periodic break where we collectively stop and wonder how did we get to talking about the cosmic meaning of life, dominance of height, home remidies for allergies, sales at Sears, from mom’s simple question of “where do you guys want to go eat”?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proscrire

Sorry to interrupt...

What is meant by "contextual disorder"? I'm confused.

Interrupting? You are in no way interrupting so such thing here. The best way to get into the conversation is come right on in. You ask a very important question because I thought of changing the title thinking my choice may prove illusive .

Contextual disorder means that the traits connected to ADD the disorder are created by the environment we are living in. In other words ADD may not be a disorder if we weren’t expected to boring stuff, or redundant activities, keep up with time of day or converse in a certain manner.

Example my ADD symptoms are not a problem when I am up running around passing medications, doing treatments, directing “traffic” ,checking out patient complaints because being active and rapidly jumping from activity to activity and back again is an expected behavior (to a some degree) for every one working there.

How ever when it comes to sitting down and doing bla paper work or listening to some long drawn out lecture about policy changes my desire to get up run around, and rapidly jump from activity to activity becomes a big problem!

My physical and mental traits are an impairment in the latter setting (boring lecture about boring stuff) but are actually an asset in the former (working on the floor with patients) even though my traits (physical activity, task leaping) them selves do not change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvrrd

Unless you're a bad farmer, then you're rrrrreally in trouble....

Too funny but an excellent point. Perhaps people became farmers because they were bad hunters. Think we are on to some thing here! Hey famermers maybe were the disordered to begin with - - - - liking it more and more all the time!

If every one were enthusiastic, gabby, ect. . . that how abnormal would it be?

In my family not having ADD is abnormal. If a NTer came in the midst of of a family gathering all except the well ADDer “adapted” (my poor mom) would be like totally lost. In my family having ADD is normal and yes lots of movement, walking bouncing with talking, interrupting is how you get into the conversation cause aint no one going to shut up and wait patiently for you to speak, most conversations have at least as many subjects as people involved and yes we can keep up. . . .there is a periodic break where we collectively stop and wonder how did we get to talking about the cosmic meaning of life, dominance of height, home remidies for allergies, sales at Sears, from mom’s simple question of “where do you guys want to go eat”?

Ahem, yep, yes ma'am, uh huh ...my mother's family operates in this same manner, up to and including the possibility that someone may play Devil's Advocate (even if that's not what they actually believe) just for the sheer joy of keeping an ongoing debate alive ...how impaired of us!

Impaired...ahhh SHOOPUF, it was loads of fun and still is!

I would make an terrible farmer. I actually grew up in farming country and I would never impose that upon my kids EVER! A person meant for the Hunt in Farmerland can and will find something to hunt, even if that's courting disaster.

A person meant for the Hunt in Farmerland can and will find something to hunt, even if that's courting disaster.

And now this Hunter faces the sight of the Farmer's crop of utter nonsense, stretching as far as my eye can see. This crop is made up of utter nonsense and takes the form of arbitrary decisions regarding the medicine to make me "function properly" like a nice little Farmer wife. Its a crop filled with weeds and ugly.

I have my doubts that any Hunter was consulted in the process of arriving at the decision to plant this crop, blocking the path to my Prey, abscuring my clever vision for this moment as I ponder the need for this fruitless crop, for it is not bearing any fruit I seem to be able to eat. No, this crop will choke me and sicken me, indeed.

So is my distress somehow not as "real" as a Farmer's is? Am I not attempting to comply with the rules of medication they deem necessary, all the while being told "Well, we want ya medicated, but hey, we are better at deciding your dosage needs than you are...If you disagree, please fill out the following 30 forms in triplicate and send them off by this randomly selected date to these agencies, then kindly sit back and relax while we make you wait for a decision"? Have I once again missed some societel cue that I was unaware of?

Or am I simply very angry...and wondering how they will like the Hunter they unleash when they remove her "unreasonable amount" of medication?

I think you have hit on one of the social contexts that really brings out the “bad” part of being ADD that would be ADDers have an extremely low tolerance for “BS” . . . .society is full of it (IMHO)

IMHO as well! Now to take it one step further, who gets to define what is and not BS? If I am frustrated, is it my "disorder" that is generating that feeling or is it because the Rules are not made with a person like me in mind to begin with?

Quote:

We see no need for it BS=red tape in your case because it is a waste of time.

Not only a waste of time but a waste of perfectly good trees. All that paper! Heh...I feel like the Lorax right now .

And its not just the waste of time that gets me, its the obvious hypocrisy. Its obvious to me anyway. They want me more Farmerish, they say "Take these pills"...then they tell me I am not even capable of telling them how many pills make me feel like a proper Farmer.

Quote:

Farming is a result delayed activity where as hunting in more along the line of immediate gratification. . farming is the same thing day in and day out where as hunting is more diverse of an activity.

Yep. I would make a terrible Farmer. I probably would have gone off on same bizarre kind of tangent and discovered the actual research to invalidate the RX plan's limits, and being me I would have told someone about it and got myself canned .

Yes, we do. Being self-employed is a good example, but look at other environments that cater to ADD traits. Some software companies allow you to arrive whenever you feel like (within limits, of course). I know someone who works for a newspaper that has no set schedule, and worked in a fairly comfortable environment, not the typical telephones-ringing-off-the-hook just get-'er-done-environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy~Feet

So is my distress somehow not as "real" as a Farmer's is? Am I not attempting to comply with the rules of medication they deem necessary, all the while being told "Well, we want ya medicated, but hey, we are better at deciding your dosage needs than you are...If you disagree, please fill out the following 30 forms in triplicate and send them off by this randomly selected date to these agencies, then kindly sit back and relax while we make you wait for a decision"? Have I once again missed some societel cue that I was unaware of?

Nothing related to this paragraph, but most seem tolerant of boring, repetitive tasks that could be very easily changed to not be such. Do you really have to state where you live 30 times? Really? Perhaps others enjoy this too much in order to change? I really hate redundant questions, by the way. Back when I was in school, we had these peer-review forms for English courses, which would list several questions, such as what is the title of this paper, what is this paper about, etc... I tended to answer them "The title is on the front page", and "To know the topic of this paper, one must read it first." Sometimes I want to do that filling out forms, however, paper work is such a rare occurrence for me that it isn't that big of a deal. I've done a lot of work automating such boring tasks at work, which has been met with resistance by others. If others enjoy the way they do their work, then I don't have a problem with it, until they attempt to force me to do the same.

I'm definately not a hunter. Maybe in a metaphorical sense, but not in the typical sense. The gratification is more immediate, but still not immediate enough to motivate me.

__________________Disclaimer: none of the posts on this forum should be taken as medical advice. Optimally, always seek the opinion of multiple experienced professionals, note any discrepancies, and use your best judgment, as well as research, to determine what is true, untrue, and neither (opinion).

Yes, we do. Being self-employed is a good example, but look at other environments that cater to ADD traits. Some software companies allow you to arrive whenever you feel like (within limits, of course). I know someone who works for a newspaper that has no set schedule, and worked in a fairly comfortable environment, not the typical telephones-ringing-off-the-hook just get-'er-done-environment.

Many thanks for that moment of redirected though HF ...I am currently a SAHM and to some extent get to make my own rules up as I go, but on the other hand, what am I "supposed" to be teaching these kids? Our random schedules make perfect sense to all of us. When we are hungry we eat, when we get tired we sleep. I wonder if this is counterproductive, since they will clearly be expected to eat, do and BE on a rigid schedule in the current school system.

I have problems finding the balance between who we are and what are expected to do in society and could lose sleep nightly wondering if I do my children a grave disservice, or do I provide them with a needed respite from the society that clearly does not fit them as individuals.

Quote:

Nothing related to this paragraph, but most seem tolerant of boring, repetitive tasks that could be very easily changed to not be such. Do you really have to state where you live 30 times? Really? Perhaps others enjoy this too much in order to change? I really hate redundant questions, by the way. Back when I was in school, we had these peer-review forms for English courses, which would list several questions, such as what is the title of this paper, what is this paper about, etc... I tended to answer them "The title is on the front page", and "To know the topic of this paper, one must read it first." Sometimes I want to do that filling out forms, however, paper work is such a rare occurrence for me that it isn't that big of a deal. I've done a lot of work automating such boring tasks at work, which has been met with resistance by others. If others enjoy the way they do their work, then I don't have a problem with it, until they attempt to force me to do the same.

Heh...I had the interesting experience of falling into an "overflow" situation in 12th grade Economics class. I was one of 4 College Prep students in a class of Vo-Techers and the teacher insisted upon a particular framework for essays:

Tell me what you are gonna tell me.
Tell me.
Tell me that you told me.

I was able to comply, after my first efforts got me less-than-perfect grades, but it galled me to no end. To actually have to repeat something as ridiculous as "This essay will be about..." and "This essay has been about..." was so stifling and a waste of my time, IMO. I complied within the prescribed framework and got straight A's but sheesh! I still believe I would have written some mighty interesting material if not constrained to that framework. As it was, I just complied and got my A, and felt like my intelligence was wasted.

Quote:

I'm definately not a hunter. Maybe in a metaphorical sense, but not in the typical sense. The gratification is more immediate, but still not immediate enough to motivate me.

Well, I am not what they like to call high-functioning, or so they tell me . In many ways I would have to admit they are quite correct as well. I am entirely too distracted behind the wheel of a car to be a safe driver, for example, when I am unmedicated. And it does take a goodish amount of medication to get me focused enough for that necessary task.

Of course my father would no doubt classify me as a serious Hunter. He has had so many occasions to argue with me over statements that came out of my mouth, leading to lectures which I would then space out of .

I do believe I was a teenager and not even an older teenager when I subjected him to the statement "I dunno, I am just not into delayed gratification I guess". As I aged I saw the need for some degree of delayed gratification? But that's still the way I saw it then, and to some extent still do, to be perfectly honest. I think I make better decisions regarding the impulses that drive me to seek immediate gratification, but I am still the one grumbling about wasted time and the need to swallow so much BS just to get from Point A to Point B. I still seek my quarry and abhor obstacles that make little sense to me.