If Luck were doing all these things so well wouldn't there be something besides empirical testaments from arm chair QB coaches showing the results of such mastery of the QB position? It's obvious you have a hard on for luck and want him to be this all world QB but he's been painstakenly inconsistent and well, average. You'll pull out any nonsensical hyperbole like 'NFL throws' for example, to try to talk him up when in fact RG3 makes better reads, more accurate throws, and is better at going through his progressions.

Of course then you'll go into ad hominem conjecture like a 3 year old brat who doesn't get what they want. You simply think your opinion matters more than the facts and it doesn't.

Pretty much anything and everything you've accused other people of doing in this thread you've done yourself.

Pretty much anything and everything you've accused other people of doing in this thread you've done yourself.

You got that right. I Love both of these guys but to act like everyone is talking trash on RG3 you are talking trash on Luck. Both of these guys Deserve the Award and I don't know why everyone fight about it.

To the guy saying no one watches Redskin games I don't think you watch Colts games, Redskins have a better running game and that helps QB's even more for RG3. Like I said these are two of my Favorite players but I think Andrew Luck is doing more with less and that is why he should Win OROTY.

You got that right. I Love both of these guys but to act like everyone is talking trash on RG3 you are talking trash on Luck. Both of these guys Deserve the Award and I don't know why everyone fight about it.

To the guy saying no one watches Redskin games I don't think you watch Colts games, Redskins have a better running game and that helps QB's even more for RG3. Like I said these are two of my Favorite players but I think Andrew Luck is doing more with less and that is why he should Win OROTY.

Right. They're both doing great, you just have to realize their situations are significantly different when you're evaluating them in comparison to each other.

I am sure this has been iterated before, but luck martin and rgiii are all having seasons above the normal criteria for a oroty.

Luck versus griffin is more of a seesaw in my mind. Each has had a bit of a lull and the other has stepped up and taken the spotlight.

Obviously lucks last game against a previously horrible pats secondary tarnished him for the moment. He made a few mistakes that the pats took full advantage of. That being said, every time he dropped back, he scared the crap at me.

I love griffin, I got to watch him tear up uconn as a frosh. He has great numbers, but look at a play he made to moss in his perfect game. As an objective football fan, you have to put most of that on moss. That is a randy play not a santana one.

That being said, if he truly has learned from the concussion, and doesn't have another lull, not sure luck can do enough to catch up.

please define ad hominem. then, quote anyone OTHER than yourself who used it. when you can't, please stop using words you clearly don't understand. further, please stop making unprovoked, direct personal attacks against other posters, solely because you think they're wrong.

seriously though. this is your only warning.

Yep typical, warn me but not ur buddy, but that's the essence of this board and you in particular. You take a sarcastic and jerkish approach to EVERYONE that doesn't agree with you and when they respond to your endless drivel of subjective analysis with the same sort of ire you drop the hammer. Yeah i've done the same when provoked by you and others. There's a cadre of posters on here that have an issue with a debate and since they want to be right so badly they make things up like they actually study tape for a living and expect others to just give into their kool aid mixture. That's also the same crew that like stats but only when it's relevant to their approach. It's disgusting what was once a very good board has become.

so the answer was "no, njx, i have no idea what an ad hominem is, nor can i identify any that you, or anyone else in this thread, have used. however, i think i will continue to make direct, unprovoked personal attacks."

gotcha.

Hey, at least he stayed true to himself lol.

__________________
The Brian Sabean sig is no more. I disagreed with you on so many levels. And then you went out and built a dynasty. I am lame.

Griffin right now might be the OROY but I'd still take luck any day. RGIII is playing well but let me put it this way: the pistol offense is something that will not last in this league and the skins run out of it very often.

One thing that's going to help you here is to understand that it is not a contest to see who has the prettiest stats. If it was, RGIII wins. If we can put that aside for a moment, you can see the significance of what Luck is doing.

And again - Griffin has had two fantastic weeks. If Luck falters this week, say the Colts lose to Buffalo - Griffin will be in great position to win the award, and I have no problem saying that. But prior to yesterday, they were really close. It doesn't hurt at all that Griffin had one of his best games against the season against Dallas on Thanksgiving. That's huge for PR. But over the course of the season, Luck's contribution to his offense is a bit more... I'm actually not quite sure what the word would be. Stable? Consistent? By the book? If you want to say RGIII is this year's Cam Newton, look at what Newton has looked like this year as Carolina's run game has laid a giant deuce. Washington is running a similar offense, and a lot of their passing game is predicated on the run. Which is fine, but it's important to see how their respective offenses work, because they work differently; this is why you can't just lay their stats side-by-side and pick one.

As has been said before, Griffin is a terrific athlete. Luck is, too, but Griffin's one of those guys who can do it "his way." He's got a style all his own, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But it's inconsistent. He's always reacting to defenses, improvising, making things up as he goes along. And he's athletic enough to pull it off, at least for now. On the other hand, Andrew Luck is not as unpredictable. But he's better at the little things. Andrew Luck is going to keep improving his style of play - I don't know how much you can "improve" on your ability to scramble in the open field. There's a reason running backs are the easiest players to plug-and-play straight from college; its all instinctive.

That's not a slight to RGIII, or an insinuation that he's not a cerebral player, or whatever, but when you watch Luck you see him always trying to pass, always trying to push the ball downfield, always trying to stick to his progressions. He'll run it, too, but watching the two RGIII clearly has a different mentality about running the ball. Where Luck will take what he's given and sometimes make a grittier play in a critical situation, RGIII is much more on the attack when he runs with the ball. Again - not necessarily a bad thing at all, and it sure makes him fun to watch, but you have to understand that their playing styles are different. RGIII's running ability is what leads to those short crossing routes being open all day as linebackers have to run horizontally all the way across the field, and receivers can always get open against that, and Washington's overall run game is good enough to use the playaction to connect on deep throws. So RGIII has a fantastic QB rating and a lot of big plays.

Andrew Luck hits "NFL throws" better than RGIII. Not the deep bombs, but the kind of difficult throws you need to make consistently. Throws you need to be able to make when the defense knows it's coming. That's Luck's strength. The Colts aren't having him run all over the place and walk the defense all over the field trying to mirror him and thus open up downfield passing options; they have him run standard plays that he'll be running the rest of his career, and he's doing well. The Colts were a very bad team last year, and now they're in the middle of the playoff race. That's huge. The Colts' running backs are pretty bad. If you want to say Washington's aren't any better, and they just have Shanahan, or something... whatever. Washington's ground attack is much better than Indy's, and that's huge for RGIII's style of play. I still have reservations about how well he'd play when Washington's run game can't get off the ground. That question doesn't apply to Luck, because Indianapolis hasn't had a good ground game for years. As crucial as RGIII is to Washington's offense, Luck is even more critical to his, and that's why you have to look past the stats a bit.

Completely disagree.

RG3, like Luck, makes his offense go. The running game, the passing game, it all works because of RG3.

Morris is a fine player, but make no mistake, his success can directly be attributed to the presence of RG3. He would not be doing anything close to what he's doing with Cousins at QB.

RG3, like Luck, makes his offense go. The running game, the passing game, it all works because of RG3.

Morris is a fine player, but make no mistake, his success can directly be attributed to the presence of RG3. He would not be doing anything close to what he's doing with Cousins at QB.

Yeah, I'll eat that. Kind of beside the point I was trying to make. Without that comment - it's typically accepted that there's a steeper learning curve for receivers than for running backs in the NFL, and right now the Colts are no. 8 in passing yards, and Luck is doing it with 2 rookie tight ends, a rookie wide receiver, a guy who totally destroyed his knee two years ago and who people thought might be done, and, of course, Reggie Wayne... who some people thought was on the downswing of his career and wondered if Indy would pay to keep him. He's obviously has had a fantastic season, but the difference between this year and last is pretty huge. Obviously Alfred Morris is a rookie himself, but to me it seems like RGIII has more established players to throw to. It's just an opinion, though - maybe people will just be saying Indianapolis had a slam-dunk draft in five years. And it's not hard to say "Well, he does have Reggie Wayne." So that wasn't the strongest statement in what I wrote.

So I went back and watched the Redskins/Cowboys game with the intent of studying the scheme and RGIII in particular. I noticed a lot of 1 read plays, lots of screen passes or bootleg 1 read or run type of plays. Other passes were heavily involved with play action pass, which often left guys wide open down the field.

He had a lot of wide open wide receivers that many qbs would hit off play action pass. Also I find it funny that Luck is being knocked for Wayne making acrobatic catches for him, yet we completely ignore how Pierre Garcon made an acrobatic catch and run for like 60 yards on 1 of Griffin's TD throws that should have been intercepted.

Griffin made a lot of throws he shouldn't have made. He did not read the defense properly on several throws, but he has such a rocket arm he got it in there anyway. It was also a result of poor awareness by the Cowboys in zone coverage.

What stood out to me the most was when Griffin was forced to go into 3rd and long. No more college stuff. 3rd and long is a traditional offensive set with a traditional drop back and you have to read and make progressions the typical way. He did not do too well in these situations. Definitely not on Luck's level in this aspect of his game. Often held the ball too long and made his reads late.

Having said that, he still had an amazing game bc of his incredible athletic ability, incredible arm, and accuracy. He can do and get away with things that most quarterbacks can't get away with. And we shouldn't hold that against him, but we also need to understand that he has some notable flaws to his game that will get exposed without continued development.

Shanny does a tremendous job of putting RGIII in a scheme that masks his weaknesses and takes advantage of his strengths. But I fully expect teams to adjust to this next year. So next year is the true test, he needs to develop his game to continue at his amazing level of play.

And I expect him to. I think RGIII has what it takes to develop. But his level of development isn't on Luck's level right now.

So I went back and watched the Redskins/Cowboys game with the intent of studying the scheme and RGIII in particular. I noticed a lot of 1 read plays, lots of screen passes or bootleg 1 read or run type of plays. Other passes were heavily involved with play action pass, which often left guys wide open down the field.

He had a lot of wide open wide receivers that many qbs would hit off play action pass. Also I find it funny that Luck is being knocked for Wayne making acrobatic catches for him, yet we completely ignore how Pierre Garcon made an acrobatic catch and run for like 60 yards on 1 of Griffin's TD throws that should have been intercepted.

Griffin made a lot of throws he shouldn't have made. He did not read the defense properly on several throws, but he has such a rocket arm he got it in there anyway. It was also a result of poor awareness by the Cowboys in zone coverage.

What stood out to me the most was when Griffin was forced to go into 3rd and long. No more college stuff. 3rd and long is a traditional offensive set with a traditional drop back and you have to read and make progressions the typical way. He did not do too well in these situations. Definitely not on Luck's level in this aspect of his game. Often held the ball too long and made his reads late.

Having said that, he still had an amazing game bc of his incredible athletic ability, incredible arm, and accuracy. He can do and get away with things that most quarterbacks can't get away with. And we shouldn't hold that against him, but we also need to understand that he has some notable flaws to his game that will get exposed without continued development.

Shanny does a tremendous job of putting RGIII in a scheme that masks his weaknesses and takes advantage of his strengths. But I fully expect teams to adjust to this next year. So next year is the true test, he needs to develop his game to continue at his amazing level of play.

And I expect him to. I think RGIII has what it takes to develop. But his level of development isn't on Luck's level right now.

To me this is spot on. It doesn't matter if this is the offense or he gets by because of his athleticism, but RG3 does not do the same things Luck does. It works now, however it won't always work. There is a reason why the top QBs in the NFL are pure pocket passers. If you can't take a 5 or 7 step drop on 3rd and long and go through your reads then eventually you are going to lose. Teams will get used to Griffin's tendencies as a runner and close down the Redskins running game. He needs to able to throw his way out.

The long TD off of play action was the definition of a one read throw based off play action. The WR came from the slot on his right, ran right at the safety and that is who RG3 read. When the safety froze the play was open. If the safety read pass he was likely going to tuck it and run.

As I have stated before, RG3 is playing more efficiently than Luck, however Luck is asked to do so much more and IMO is the better player and will be the better player

So I went back and watched the Redskins/Cowboys game with the intent of studying the scheme and RGIII in particular. I noticed a lot of 1 read plays, lots of screen passes or bootleg 1 read or run type of plays. Other passes were heavily involved with play action pass, which often left guys wide open down the field.

He had a lot of wide open wide receivers that many qbs would hit off play action pass. Also I find it funny that Luck is being knocked for Wayne making acrobatic catches for him, yet we completely ignore how Pierre Garcon made an acrobatic catch and run for like 60 yards on 1 of Griffin's TD throws that should have been intercepted.

Griffin made a lot of throws he shouldn't have made. He did not read the defense properly on several throws, but he has such a rocket arm he got it in there anyway. It was also a result of poor awareness by the Cowboys in zone coverage.

What stood out to me the most was when Griffin was forced to go into 3rd and long. No more college stuff. 3rd and long is a traditional offensive set with a traditional drop back and you have to read and make progressions the typical way. He did not do too well in these situations. Definitely not on Luck's level in this aspect of his game. Often held the ball too long and made his reads late.

Having said that, he still had an amazing game bc of his incredible athletic ability, incredible arm, and accuracy. He can do and get away with things that most quarterbacks can't get away with. And we shouldn't hold that against him, but we also need to understand that he has some notable flaws to his game that will get exposed without continued development.

Shanny does a tremendous job of putting RGIII in a scheme that masks his weaknesses and takes advantage of his strengths. But I fully expect teams to adjust to this next year. So next year is the true test, he needs to develop his game to continue at his amazing level of play.

And I expect him to. I think RGIII has what it takes to develop. But his level of development isn't on Luck's level right now.

IMO there's an assumption in this analysis that RG3's production is inflated by screen plays, his running ability and one read passing plays.

When you see a so called 'one read' passing play run by the Skins, look and see how many WRs are out on the pattern and see how much if at all RG3 shifts/scrambles to find the guy he wants. Kyle has plays designed to spring one primary WR, but he doesn't have one read plays. RG3 is expected to read the defense and find the open guy.

RG3 ran the ball exactly SIX TIMES against the Cowboys. One I believe was a keeper on a zone option, but the others were bailouts from pressure or first down runs. That's just a part of his game and will be for most of his career, his ability to scramble and beat outside contain. But the runs are less of the open field variety and more just to pick up the first down heading towards the sideline.
Yes RG3's innate 'run threat' forces defenders in coverage to adjust whenever he moves, but his athleticism isn't inflating his passing stats.

When Dallas got beat deep by Robinson in the 2nd quarter, they rolled their safeties back. Most NFL QBs would then begin to work the middle of the field on passing downs. That's what Grif did. I'd be curious to see what throws you saw that were 'rookie throws' against underneath coverage??

That's why Robert threw to 8 different WRs against Dallas, with none catching the ball more than 5 times. That's why his 4 TD passes went to FOUR different WRs. That's why his leading WR wasn't his TE, usually the easiest read for most QBs because he's covered by a slower defender.

You say Robert made throws he should be making..poor decision making. If you have Grif's arm strength and release, what's a good throw and read for him isn't necessarily the same for a QB who doesn't have his arm talent.

If you're going to list screen passes and balls thrown on rollouts as examples of atypical QB play, IMO you have to chart them for RGIII if you're going to suggest he's running an inordinate amount of these said plays. Grif didn't throw 10 one yard screens against Dallas that went for 20. He beat Dallas through the air, not with low risk pass attempts.

No one's knocking Luck for having Reggie Wayne to throw the football to, the fact is Robert doesn't have that kind of go-to WR, until Garcon came back healthy against Dallas.
Wayne still leads the NFL in catches, he's still the most targeted WR in the league. Having that kind of player helps a young QB out tremendously. If you took Wayne off the Colts, I don't know if Luck could manufacture that same production with his other WRs and TEs.

Robert's biggest strength as QB IMO is his decision making. It's what makes him elite. A simplified scheme and playbook don't let most rookies only throw 4 INTs and 16 TDs. Scheme alone isn't why Grif has completed over 67% of his passes all season.

What Robert does benefit from IMO is a brilliant playcaller and offensive strategist in Kyle Shanahan. Kyle's gameplan is tailored per the opponent every week, and most times all Robert has to do is execute the offense and make the right read(easier said than done..lol). That's why it's difficult for opponents to identify tendencies from previous Skins games.

I wish someone would make the case in more specifics what it is exactly Luck is doing as a rookie that leads his advocates to believe he's the better rookie QB. One thing I've noticed about Luck is if he's given time, he's going to find an open WR. He can read a defense. But otherwise I don't see gaping differences in his level of play and Robert's.

EDIT:

Pure dropback passer is a cliche.
Aaron Rodgers btw is the one player who most reminds many SKins fans of RGIII.
Mobility is not a negative for an NFL QB, but if it's the foundation of your overall a game then it's a limiting factor for long term success IMO.

Rodgers and Roethlisberger have 3 SBs combined because of their 'mobility'.
Let's not lose perspective.

Even Luck isn't a pure dropback QB in the sense that he has options once the pocket breaks down besides dumping off the football or taking the sack.

The pure dropback guys in the NFL aren't mobile and can't outrun anybody. That doesn't make them better QBs. It's just who they are.
It would be like criticizing Wes Welker because he lacks 4.3 speed.

There aren't. The last couple pages of this thread were basically reactions to statements along the lines of "Luck isn't even close to being on RGIII's level," which is absurd. They are very close, and this is one of the closest rookie of the year races I can remember.

IMO there's an assumption in this analysis that RG3's production is inflated by screen plays, his running ability and one read passing plays.

When you see a so called 'one read' passing play run by the Skins, look and see how many WRs are out on the pattern and see how much if at all RG3 shifts/scrambles to find the guy he wants. Kyle has plays designed to spring one primary WR, but he doesn't have one read plays. RG3 is expected to read the defense and find the open guy.

RG3 ran the ball exactly SIX TIMES against the Cowboys. One I believe was a keeper on a zone option, but the others were bailouts from pressure or first down runs. That's just a part of his game and will be for most of his career, his ability to scramble and beat outside contain. But the runs are less of the open field variety and more just to pick up the first down heading towards the sideline.
Yes RG3's innate 'run threat' forces defenders in coverage to adjust whenever he moves, but his athleticism isn't inflating his passing stats.

When Dallas got beat deep by Robinson in the 2nd quarter, they rolled their safeties back. Most NFL QBs would then begin to work the middle of the field on passing downs. That's what Grif did. I'd be curious to see what throws you saw that were 'rookie throws' against underneath coverage??

That's why Robert threw to 8 different WRs against Dallas, with none catching the ball more than 5 times. That's why his 4 TD passes went to FOUR different WRs. That's why his leading WR wasn't his TE, usually the easiest read for most QBs because he's covered by a slower defender.

You say Robert made throws he should be making..poor decision making. If you have Grif's arm strength and release, what's a good throw and read for him isn't necessarily the same for a QB who doesn't have his arm talent.

If you're going to list screen passes and balls thrown on rollouts as examples of atypical QB play, IMO you have to chart them for RGIII if you're going to suggest he's running an inordinate amount of these said plays. Grif didn't throw 10 one yard screens against Dallas that went for 20. He beat Dallas through the air, not with low risk pass attempts.

No one's knocking Luck for having Reggie Wayne to throw the football to, the fact is Robert doesn't have that kind of go-to WR, until Garcon came back healthy against Dallas.
Wayne still leads the NFL in catches, he's still the most targeted WR in the league. Having that kind of player helps a young QB out tremendously. If you took Wayne off the Colts, I don't know if Luck could manufacture that same production with his other WRs and TEs.

Robert's biggest strength as QB IMO is his decision making. It's what makes him elite. A simplified scheme and playbook don't let most rookies only throw 4 INTs and 16 TDs. Scheme alone isn't why Grif has completed over 67% of his passes all season.

What Robert does benefit from IMO is a brilliant playcaller and offensive strategist in Kyle Shanahan. Kyle's gameplan is tailored per the opponent every week, and most times all Robert has to do is execute the offense and make the right read(easier said than done..lol). That's why it's difficult for opponents to identify tendencies from previous Skins games.

I wish someone would make the case in more specifics what it is exactly Luck is doing as a rookie that leads his advocates to believe he's the better rookie QB. One thing I've noticed about Luck is if he's given time, he's going to find an open WR. He can read a defense. But otherwise I don't see gaping differences in his level of play and Robert's.

EDIT:

Pure dropback passer is a cliche.
Aaron Rodgers btw is the one player who most reminds many SKins fans of RGIII.
Mobility is not a negative for an NFL QB, but if it's the foundation of your overall a game then it's a limiting factor for long term success IMO.

Rodgers and Roethlisberger have 3 SBs combined because of their 'mobility'.
Let's not lose perspective.

Even Luck isn't a pure dropback QB in the sense that he has options once the pocket breaks down besides dumping off the football or taking the sack.

The pure dropback guys in the NFL aren't mobile and can't outrun anybody. That doesn't make them better QBs. It's just who they are.
It would be like criticizing Wes Welker because he lacks 4.3 speed.

All fair points. But I think comparing progression reading in the NFL, ie (presnap read of the rush, adjustment of protections, identifying the mike, identifying presnap mismatches, then snapping the ball, reading the defense, then identifying which routes are open based on the defense and going 1,2,3 progression based on the routes vs the coverage) vs a read option play where you read the safety and if he cheats up, PA pass down the seam to your WR or if he doesn't, keep it and run is totally different in terms of complexity. A lot less information is being processed at once.

And you can't compare Rodgers to Griff. Griff is running a lot of spread option, Rodgers runs a WCO and scrambles when no one is open. It's different.

Now to be fair, Griffin's incredible athleticism is why he can run that system. So it shouldn't be used against him, but at the same time, we need to understand that many successful plays in this system will work this year, but it won't next year.

So he's going to have to develop to continue his incredible play. And I've been saying all along that I fully expect him to develop bc he's the real deal. All I'm pointing out is, we have to look beyond the numbers to truly analyze quarterbacks.

Mark Sanchez had a 94 qb rating vs the Patriots. But he sucked and anyone who watched the game would tell you that. You gotta look beyond the numbers sometimes.

Having said all that, it would not upset me one bit if RGIII wins OROTY. If he continues to play like this, and he outperforms Luck then sure, he deserves it.

All I'm saying is, let's look deeper before we mold his bust in Canton. Let's all take a deep breathe, and remember that this is a game of adjustments. Year 2 will tell us a lot about RGIII.

I think people see that RG3 ran several read option plays early in the season and think that's the cornerstone of the Skins offense.
IMO Kyle wants to make defenses think early on Grif is a threat to run at the snap, but the number of designed read/runs have decreased dramatically since the Saints/Rams/Cincy games.

Luck doesn't run any read option plays, but it's not like a third to a half of Griffin's offensive snaps are option runs.

They do still use that read-option ball fake, but rarely is Grif keeping it to run.

IMO the Skins offense as of late is about 15% of the Baylor playbook and 85% Kyle and Mike's WCO/ZBS and the offense being run in Houston.

With that said, if the SKins hope to have any chance to push for a wildcard, RG3 is going to have to run. A lot. They're going to have to outscore opponents, and that means Grif is going to need the find the endzone at times as a runner.

Let's be clear, I don't think any of us are saying RGIII isn't good. He's amazing. We're just pointing out that he is in a great situation right now and is being developed perfectly by the coaching staff and how they incorporate his skills into a modified scheme.

The next chapter for RGIII will be his development in Shanny's traditional sets in the offseason. I think he's gonna be great. We're witnessing arguably the best 1,2 qb punch to ever come out of the draft.

I'm in no way an expert, but I think this is a dead heat at this point.

Luck and Griffin both are on pathetic teams and both are putting up numbers. Luck will probably win because his team will be in playoff contention. If RG3 wants to win, he needs to beat the Giants in their next match and put his team into playoff contention again.

It shouldn't come down to that, but that's what it feels like the gap is.

I'm in no way an expert, but I think this is a dead heat at this point.

Luck and Griffin both are on pathetic teams and both are putting up numbers. Luck will probably win because his team will be in playoff contention. If RG3 wants to win, he needs to beat the Giants in their next match and put his team into playoff contention again.

It shouldn't come down to that, but that's what it feels like the gap is.

Luck has a 1/1 TD/Int ratio, which is below Phil Rivers and Brandon Weeden.
Griffin has a 4/1 Int ratio, which is spectacular, and he also has almost 700 yards rushing the ball, and 6 TD runs.

This, at the moment, is Griffin by 4 lengths, no wire-to-wire finish here.