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And then, once again Shaun goes off into another post totally off the issue and attacking me personally.

Mr. Sigman,
You are only getting back what you are putting out. If you don't like how you look, don't blame the mirror.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

You obviously had it wrong and you're going to have to tap dance pretty hard to convince anyone but a rank beginner that you didn't know what you were talking about.

I find it very interesting that you, one who really has no real interactions with anyone close to O-Sensei can say what is wrong and or right. Pathetic actually, but let's get past that. It is my sincere hope that you eventually open up to the fact that you think you know what you are talking about with relation to what O-Sensei said privately, specifically with regards to the subject matter at hand.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

But notice that I didn't attack you personally and that I skirted the subject of your misstatements without hanging you out to dry as some obvious "I Know the Secrets" guy, which you appear to be.

I never said (to you) that I know anything at all. What I did, was ask you what you thought, someone who portends to know it all, having never studied along this path, about something that I have personally experienced that seems to be outside of what you describe. Not only did you not answer it, you basically attributed it to "student power" and dismissed it on more than one occasion. If this is what you call open discussion of the topic, then I see why you feel the need to attack someone that called you out, namely me, and I am not alone in this.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

The mistake you're making is in thinking that somehow you and I are in a competition, Shaun. Get that out of your mind and discuss the issues, please.

I am not in competition with you Mr. Sigman. I see you for who you are, as do many others here. The difference between you and I is that I truly believe that you have something to share, something of value in which I am sincerely interested. It is a shame that you come here and repeatedly state that no one hear is your contemporary in such regard.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Show me that statement and where I've made it, Shaun.

Actually Mike, I spent days preparing a four page document detailing several dozen statements you made just prior to and just after you and I corresponded privately. I broke your statements down into just under a dozen categories (three of which I mentioned in my last post) all based upon where or why they missed their mark. However, I chose not to send it to you because you quickly made it obvious that it would be pointless in that you really are not interested in what other's have to say if it does not fit into your already fixed idea of how things were, are and will be.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

And if you don't think I belong on this forum, can you give us the reasons why?

A reasonable question, based upon another incorrect assumption. However, I think this is the perfect place for you, but not for the reasons you might consider.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Then I misunderstood you, Shaun. I thought you were here trolling for people to "call you privately" so you could "set up lessons".

Typical. I thought it pretty clear to all that this was your intention in this forum. Truth is Mike, you don't know me at all, and your claim in that last statement clearly shows that. You see, if you knew anything about me you would know that I never charge anything to anyone who comes to see me privately based upon and invitation I put forth. I don't invite just anyone out here to train with me, and I don't hold open seminars, except for my teachers, and this is never to turn a profit. In case you missed it, NY Aikido Center is non-profit. My dojo is private and I do not encourage anyone to step off the street and give me money. In fact, I turn just about everyone away. However, I have invited a few individuals to come and meet me, based upon what I believe to be a sincere heart, not for the reasons you incorrectly postulate, but rather to see for myself who they are and what their motivations may, in fact be. When I find someone that seems to resonate along with what I have to say, I give them direct access to my teachers, including Abe Sensei. Those that don't show up, well I guess we'll never know…

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Mike Sigman wrote:

In fact, I was a little startled that you were presenting what information you've garnered from Abe Sensei as being what Ueshiba did.... when Abe Sensei openly says he learned it from other sources.

You do not know Abe Sensei at all. You do not know how he trained himself, or how he trained with O-Sensei. Your comments about what Abe Sensei did, or who he learned from come from articles that I helped transpose and even went as far as taking back to him in Japan the poor English translations others have put out to verify the changes I made before they reposted them on their own websites.

I want to be very clear here, Mike. What Abe Sensei said to me is that he learned many things along his path prior to him initially training with O-Sensei, whom he had met years before, unaware at the time of who he actually was. He also made it very clear that he showed them to O-Sensei, and O-Sensei said that he wanted to show Abe Sensei "another" way of doing these things. Abe Sensei said, "When O-Sensei said "another" way, he meant a "better" way." He went on to express to me that based upon his adopting these methods he was able to achieve a break through where he had previously been stuck, which was proof that O-Sensei's way was better. Do you then think, Mr. Sigman, that Abe Sensei would go back to, or teach his previous methods to his own uhci-deshi? Well, according to Abe Sensei, and he has shown me both methods, and detailed why one is far superior to the other, what he took the time to share comes directly from O-Sensei. Would you like to dispute this with me, publicly or privately? If you like, I will ask him directly, tape record his answer and play it for you in person. I have already invited you out here and to California hoping to have a chance to see some authentic Chinese Internal Arts, but you have yet to RSVP… Oh, and I must have misplaced the invitation you sent my way. Would you mind resending it…?

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Again though, I didn't attack you personally, even when you did this. In fact, I've sat quietly through several of your attacks up until now. Do you think it will be easier to get back to the subject now?

Well, maybe you can't see it, but you did on several occasions. In any case, I could really care less about your personal attacks on me. The only reason I even deal with you on this forum is to help dispel the misinformation that you are putting out with regards to and the attacks of my teacher, O-Sensei and Aikido, in case you hadn't realized that is what you have been doing.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

The basic sputtering you've been doing lately is along the lines of "there's other ways to skin a cat" and "there are other approaches" with the implication that you know those things, Shaun. But you never tell anyone anything on this forum about how to do those things.

Well, thanks to Ron Tisdale, you will see at least one post of mine which indicates that, yet again, you have your mouth aligned with your myths.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Instead of lecturing me and trying to get others to grovel toward you to learn privately, why not simply engage in open debate about where I'm wrong, missing the point, etc.? So far all you've done is try to smear me personally and I'm calling you on it.... let's see you debate facts, Shaun.

I love it, open debate as to the facts as Mike Sigman sees them. You are calling me on it…? Are you this funny in person?

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Tell us "other approaches" and how they work. I can support what I say with demonstration, credentials in things ki and kokyu, and people on this forum and others who have seen me do things.

Credentials? I asked you about with whom you studied and you chose not to respond. Of course, your "credentials" are available for anyone to find. However, really Mike, are you going to hold them up here in an attempt to signify that you know what O-Sensei did, or what he shared with Abe Sensei, Tohei Sensei, Shioda Sensei?

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Mike Sigman wrote:

So far I haven't heard anyone support the idea that you're the holder of deep secrets that you purport to be.

Mr. Sigman, I don't need anyone to defend me here, or otherwise. In cased you hadn't noticed, it is you who are on the defensive. This is because you think that people are personally attacking you when in fact they are telling you over and over and over that you have nothing upon which to base the misbegotten conclusions you have arrived at and to which you seem so attached.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

So let's just have a good discussion of the issues, shall we?

Sure… whenever you are ready.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Want to start with the questions I asked you to answer the other evening or do you want to start somewhere else?

Okay, since you invited me to choose, I choose the latter. Lets start with this quote...

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Shaun Ravens vaguely described something that *might* be extended power usage of the last sort, but I couldn't tell how sophisticated it was from his description. I'd heard from a direct student of Abe Sensei's about Abe doing something that smacked of power developed from breathing exercises and maybe even some dantien or hip added to it.

Where I would like to start is that scenario I put forth. I would like you to postulate a way in which the throw could be achieved. If you would like you can contrast this with the subject of the thread, Standing Postures and give your views on how one moves from using the body to generate power from the ground up to generating power when there is no ground. Truth is, I am very interested in your answer because I have no idea. I took the time to ask because I thought you might put forward something that might have me begin some type of internal inquiry that I could use to develop some external process - maybe even one involving standing postures of all things.

PS - You mentioned something about what you had heard from one of Abe Sensei's direct students. I know most, if not all of Abe Sensei's senior students that regardless of age or rank were still practicing anytime over the last 15 years. Let me share what one of them said to me when I first met him. He said, " I have been training with Abe Sensei for decades and what he chose to share with you (referring to me and others) in these two weeks are things that he never shared with any of us." Of course he was only speaking of what he had seen Abe Sensei share in public when he happened to be present, and therefore was not in regards to what took place When Abe Sensei and I met in private. Those things, as requested by Abe Sensei, I never talk about with anyone who was not in the room. Let me add, his tears were genuine. As for why he shared it with me, and not others I have no answers I would post here. As for how much I know, I would only add that should one day my teacher, Matsuoka Sensei reveal to me what Abe Sensei shared with him, I would not be surprised to find myself in that senior student's shoes, tears and all.

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 03-30-2005 at 03:45 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

[snip extraneous] Where I would like to start is that scenario I put forth. I would like you to postulate a way in which the throw could be achieved. If you would like you can contrast this with the subject of the thread, Standing Postures and give your views on how one moves from using the body to generate power from the ground up to generating power when there is no ground. Truth is, I am very interested in your answer because I have no idea. I took the time to ask because I thought you might put forward something that might have me begin some type of internal inquiry that I could use to develop some external process - maybe even one involving standing postures of all things.

As I said in several posts on several threads, power either comes from the ground or from the weight and body closing. It has to do with paths and focusing them. A number of the techniques I watched Shioda do on video yesterday had to do with him controlling paths downward. So he did "tricks" using the ground in up, out, toward-the-body, and down, even though "down" is not able to access the ground. The Asian view though is that all four directions of power originate in the middle so the down-power is considered also "from the dantien". In the air, I can generate power downward with a trained impulse; there are several ways to do that impulse, but without seeing the demo you mentioned, I'm not going guess what was used. And I'm not "postulating" anything, Shaun... I can do it. In terms of trying to tell you how that power is stored and released, I'm not even going to try to do it with the printed word. You have enough information to work on; what you need is someone to show you how.

What you miss from my perspective, Shaun, is that these things I'm telling you have an obvious logic to them. I've said that before on other threads. I said something like "If A = B" and "If B = C", then A must equal C. It's that obvious. It's like also if I know that someone knows "A" and that the only way he can know "C" involves him understanding "B" , then claims to know "C" while showing total ignorance of "B" tell me that he cannot know "C". I.e, I can gauge what people know by what they show they know and what they show they don't know. Many of the things I've said have been throw-outs to start discussions, but along the way I could spot things that people could NOT know, as well. That's why I've suggested that you simply engage in descriptive dialogue and quit intimating useable knowledge. Knowing the *steps* in Misogi is like knowing the steps in any qigong... it won't do you any good without understanding those basic principles that link all qigongs, including Misogi practices.

It is always interesting to compare notes, but we all have to feel out what the common level is before we can establish a common dialogue. I'd suggest that you and any other Aikido "experts" who have useable knowledge make an effort to share any real information you have on forums like this one. You're not going to get many fluke outsiders like me that will tolerate the flummery, so you need to start the habit of open, useful sharing that gets beyond the petty bickering and egos.

Quote:

PS - You mentioned something about what you had heard from one of Abe Sensei's direct students. I know most, if not all of Abe Sensei's senior students that regardless of age or rank were still practicing anytime over the last 15 years. Let me share what one of them said to me when I first met him. He said, " I have been training with Abe Sensei for decades and what he chose to share with you (referring to me and others) in these two weeks are things that he never shared with any of us." Of course he was only speaking of what he had seen Abe Sensei share in public when he happened to be present, and therefore was not in regards to what took place When Abe Sensei and I met in private. Those things, as requested by Abe Sensei, I never talk about with anyone who was not in the room. Let me add, his tears were genuine. As for why he shared it with me, and not others I have no answers I would post here. As for how much I know, I would only add that should one day my teacher, Matsuoka Sensei reveal to me what Abe Sensei shared with him, I would not be surprised to find myself in that senior student's shoes, tears and all.

Shaun, this is the sort of horn-blowing I can't stand. Please don't do it anymore. I've got far too many years of experience to not have seen those kinds of comments from people about who they are, what they know, etc. It just takes away from the important things to discuss. We're ALL amateurs, despite any silk suits or cotton gi's.... you, me, and everyone on this list. The sooner that's accepted, the better, IMO.

The Asian view though is that all four directions of power originate in the middle so the down-power is considered also "from the dantien". In the air, I can generate power downward with a trained impulse; there are several ways to do that impulse, but without seeing the demo you mentioned, I'm not going guess what was used.

Thank you for the overview.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

And I'm not "postulating" anything, Shaun... I can do it. In terms of trying to tell you how that power is stored and released, I'm not even going to try to do it with the printed word. You have enough information to work on; what you need is someone to show you how.

Again, when I say postulate, I mean it only in terms of communicating your point of view on the subject. I have no doubt that you can do this, that is why I asked.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

What you miss from my perspective, Shaun, is that these things I'm telling you have an obvious logic to them. I've said that before on other threads. I said something like "If A = B" and "If B = C", then A must equal C. It's that obvious. It's like also if I know that someone knows "A" and that the only way he can know "C" involves him understanding "B" , then claims to know "C" while showing total ignorance of "B" tell me that he cannot know "C". I.e, I can gauge what people know by what they show they know and what they show they don't know.

Yes, while your logic is sound here, your conclusions are not. Just because someone shows ignorance of a subject, doesn't mean he does not know it. However, I agree with you on the basics of how to approach it.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Many of the things I've said have been throw-outs to start discussions, but along the way I could spot things that people could NOT know, as well. That's why I've suggested that you simply engage in descriptive dialogue and quit intimating useable knowledge.

Well, to be honest I don't believe that any level of descriptive dialogue will do anything outside of confuse people at best, alienate people next, or even worse... For example the article about misogi that Ward Rafferty put out is interesting to me on several levels. If you compare his and mine (the one Ron Tisdale pointed out) you will see that at one level they are the same, albeit there are some minor differences in the physicality of how things are done. However, he then adds much more descriptive things, such as. "…you must concentrate and imagine that you are breathing in the Ki of the Great Universe..." which seems like additional knowledge, but in fact is anything but that. I hear this stuff all the time, quoted in, and worse from multiple sources, and passed along as though it is helpful, or really what O-Sensei was doing, imagining or otherwise. I have discussed this with Abe Sensei at length and his view is well known to those close to him.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

Knowing the *steps* in Misogi is like knowing the steps in any qigong... it won't do you any good without understanding those basic principles that link all qigongs, including Misogi practices.

Agreed, and that is why it is a pointless endeavor to attempt to extend the conversation beyond the basics here.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

It is always interesting to compare notes, but we all have to feel out what the common level is before we can establish a common dialogue. I'd suggest that you and any other Aikido "experts" who have useable knowledge make an effort to share any real information you have on forums like this one.

Well, I am no aikido expert, and never claim to be, on the internet or in person. I may know a few, and I may have access to them at some level, but I think that you will still find there is a strong protocol in approaching them. One has to go through the steps, regardless of how long that may take, or how hard it may seem.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

You're not going to get many fluke outsiders like me that will tolerate the flummery, so you need to start the habit of open, useful sharing that gets beyond the petty bickering and egos.

Who is looking for outsiders to tolerate anything? Come inside and stop being an outsider. There is no one here trying to judge you, but we are finding it dificult to know what your agenda is when in one moment you say this…

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Shaun, this is the sort of horn-blowing I can't stand. Please don't do it anymore.

and in the very next moment you say this:

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Mike Sigman wrote:

I've got far too many years of experience to not have seen those kinds of comments from people about who they are, what they know, etc.

As for me, well I started playing the trumpet in the fourth grade, so alas, I am a horn blower after all.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

We're ALL amateurs, despite any silk suits or cotton gi's.... you, me, and everyone on this list. The sooner that's accepted, the better, IMO.

True. However,

*Crrrruuuunch* (fortune cookie being opened) "..it is always good to take long look in mirror before giving long speech you not even interested in."

In any case, I appreciate you taking a step to raising the level of the discourse, regardless of the fact that you and I may disagree on how best to do that.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

Well, to be honest I don't believe that any level of descriptive dialogue will do anything outside of confuse people at best, alienate people next, or even worse

I don't agree. There are some very helpful basic things that can be pointed out to people who are looking for a toehold. However, the general rule in martial arts seems to be to get a little knowledge and act like it's a lot... doling out peanuts while thinking it's gold by both the giver and the givee.

Quote:

... For example the article about misogi that Ward Rafferty put out is interesting to me on several levels. If you compare his and mine (the one Ron Tisdale pointed out) you will see that at one level they are the same, albeit there are some minor differences in the physicality of how things are done. However, he then adds much more descriptive things, such as. "…you must concentrate and imagine that you are breathing in the Ki of the Great Universe..." which seems like additional knowledge, but in fact is anything but that. I hear this stuff all the time, quoted in, and worse from multiple sources, and passed along as though it is helpful, or really what O-Sensei was doing, imagining or otherwise. I have discussed this with Abe Sensei at length and his view is well known to those close to him.

Actually, that description is just as clear as all the rest of the descriptions in the list. No one can do anything on any list, yours or Wards, if they don't know how to do them. The "…you must concentrate and imagine that you are breathing in the Ki of the Great Universe..." is extremely important because it tells me that O-Sensei was doing a Buddhist-derived qigong of the type derived from the Yi Jin Jing. But you have to know how to do the breathing or it's just an imagination drill. I seriously would wonder, if I were you, if you're being shown everything. No offense, but I've learned over many years that the assumption is that one is NOT being shown everything. There is often the imagined scenario that someone is saying about the occasional foreign student, "At Last he is here! Now I can reveal it all because I have waited my whole life for this yagi-no-mei to arrive... he is like my son!". It doesn't happen like that, no matter how friendly someone is.

I don't agree. There are some very helpful basic things that can be pointed out to people who are looking for a toehold. However, the general rule in martial arts seems to be to get a little knowledge and act like it's a lot... doling out peanuts while thinking it's gold by both the giver and the givee.

I am sure you would agree that one can only base his thinking upon that to which he has been exposed. You seemingly have revealed quite a bit about how you found things in the martial arts circles within which you find yourself. However, I have had the complete opposite experience.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

Actually, that description is just as clear as all the rest of the descriptions in the list. No one can do anything on any list, yours or Wards, if they don't know how to do them. The "…you must concentrate and imagine that you are breathing in the Ki of the Great Universe..." is extremely important because it tells me that O-Sensei was doing a Buddhist-derived qigong of the type derived from the Yi Jin Jing.

That may be what it tells you, but in and of itself it really doesn't give any clear instruction. Of course, you can't possibly realize what it was that O-Sensei thought of such a breathing exercise, even had he been using it in the first place. O-Sensei did leave clear instructions within the doka. However, like you say, one would have to have the background in, and clearly understand the practices of other things to reap the benefits of what is contained within.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

But you have to know how to do the breathing or it's just an imagination drill. I seriously would wonder, if I were you, if you're being shown everything. No offense, but I've learned over many years that the assumption is that one is NOT being shown everything.

Agreed. and like I have said in other places, it is all breathing. However, don't take that statement at face value. It only means that until one understands the breathing, not much else is really possible. Eventually, one gets beyond breathing - completely.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

There is often the imagined scenario that someone is saying about the occasional foreign student, "At Last he is here! Now I can reveal it all because I have waited my whole life for this yagi-no-mei to arrive... he is like my son!".

Well, I never claimed to be that in the least. I am very clear that there is no one out there waiting for me. I have no natural talent, I am lazy, and I am mean and nasty and difficult to be around. However another teacher of mine, one who predates my aikido training gave me a wonderful piece of advice which I have followed since that day. He said, "Shaun, since you will never change, why not turn your nagative qualities around and make them work for you." I guess that is what had me happen to be in the right places at the right time. In any case, Abe Sensei doesn't seem to mind - too much!

Abe Sensei, in particular has a very clear feeling about foreigners, Americans in particular. He advised O-Sensei not to come to America (Hawaii). This makes his choice to teach Americans an interesting one, and knowing why has one truly understand how great of a teacher he really is.

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Mike Sigman wrote:

It doesn't happen like that, no matter how friendly someone is.

Well, I think at the very least we can extrapolate from your statement that it has not happened to you. Or has it?

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

Actually, I've had pretty good experiences. But I have noticed over the years that too many westerners mistake great friendliness for the idea that someone is being totally open with them. I'm good friends with a number of teachers, but I know it's traditional that they show very little over a long period of time. Why would they do otherwise?