In light of your claims to support equal rights and freedom from discrimination for the gay community please confirm what disciplinary action (up to and including expulsion from the Tory Party) will be taken against Tory MEP Roger Helmar for his claim that “‘Homophobia’ is merely a propaganda device designed to denigrate and stigmatise those holding conventional opinions”.

Would Helmar be willing to make such a statement to the families of Michael Causer or Jody Dobroski, two gay men who were beaten to death because of their sexuality last year?

Is Helmar’s vicious stupidity linked to the Tory party’s association with the facist Polish Law and Justice Party in the European Parliament?

What action is to be taken against Helmar or is sickening bigotry once again tolerated by the Tories as has always been the case until you claimed that the Tories had changed?

Neil Robinson, your comment is nonsense! Roger Helmer speaks only for himself on this matter and not for the vast majority of Conservatives. I personally believe that homophobia does exist and causes grief to many people.

Sally, I am very sorry but Helmer doesn’t speak for himself. As a Tory MEP, expressing his views publicly, he speaks for both his constituents, many of whom will probably not be impressed, and his party.

Homophobia doesn’t exist, and racism and sexism are equally imaginary. I only imagined the occasions when I was insulted and bullied at school and work, and any view which is common and long-held is innocuous and reasonable. The world is flat, witches fly on broomsticks, and disabled people were wicked in a previous life.

Thats the problem holding opinions that have been held since the beginning of recorded history. They are history, and Tory Boys like you should try and live in the 21st. Centuary.
He’s a Typical political Idiot.

Try telling that to the two guys who were beaten up in Brum recently! And how about the poor lad in Liverpool who was murdered? There is sadly a list of these abhorant attacks and you don’t have to look too hard to find them!

C`mon everybody- these ARE the views of the majority of the conservative MP`swho will be entering parliament at the next election. Maybe the WORD “homophobia” is new-but what it MEANS isn`t!! It is not “political correctness” that says it is WRONG to discrimanate against and demonise those who are attracted to their own sex-it never has been right to do so. Its the same old Tory view that it has always been-and it will never change-no matter how many “nice Mr Camerons” are fronting the party. BE WARNED- voting for this bunch means you are putting into power those who would abuse you.

I don’t know what this guy wants to tell us, but it’s a generally accepted fact that there are ‘people’ who think it’s ok to be phobic about the ‘others’ ((un-)believers, gays, (non-)whites), and to treat them differently then they would like to be treated, like beating them up, or even killing them. Anybody know Helmer’s IQ and EQ?

No doubt those who put their Tory politics ahead of their pride in themselves as gay men and lesnbians will be jumping in to say what a good bloke this bigot Helmer is and how cuddly chinless ‘Dave’ Cameron is the gay boy’s friend. But the fact is, vote Tory and this is what you’ll get, old school bigots and deniers, who can;t wait for the chance to reassert their 19th century version of the status quo, and take our protections off us.

When the word “homophobia” was coined it was not meant merely to *describe* the phenomenon of hostility towards gay people. It also suggested an *explanation* of that hostility: the suffix “-phobia” was meant to suggest that anti-gay holstility arose from an irrational *fear* in the way that one can have an irrational fear of spiders or heights.

So someone who denied the existence of homophobia *might* mean only to deny that their hostility rested on fear. But I doubt that Helmjer is as subtle as this, and even if he were it wouldn’t help him much, since it would look as if he were saying, “I don’t hate gays because I have an irrational fear of them; I just hate ’em anyway.”

Paul, are you surprised? Of course they won’t extend tax incentives for gay couples because civil partnerships are not marriages, that won’t change either, no matter which party is in power. We’re banned from marrying after all.

Simon……lets wait and see what Cameron does on this one. I suspect it will be a while before he acknowledges it if at all. Helmer is in denial and probably a hater though he’d deny that too, most liars do when it gets too uncomfortable for them, he’s a classic example of right wing fear and hate mongering, rampant in conservative parties around the world, especially the republican party in the U.S., their mentors.

Your party has sought to give the impression that it supports equal rights and freedom from discrimination for the gay and lesbian community.

Therefore would you please confirm what disciplinary action (up to and including expulsion from the Tory Party) will be taken against Tory MEP Roger Helmar for his extraordinary and outrageous claim that “‘Homophobia’ is merely a propaganda device designed to denigrate and stigmatise those holding conventional opinions”.

The “conventional opinion” that Mr. Helmar clearly seeks to maintain is that gay and lesbian people should not be treated as totally equal and respectable members of our society.

Your Mr. Helmar is therefore clearly a homophobe. (He is also just a tip of the ice-berg that is homophobia amongst Conservatives in general.)

Would your Mr. Helmar be willing to make such a statement to the families of Michael Causer or Jody Dobroski, two gay men who were beaten to death because of their sexuality last year?

Is Mr. Helmar’s clearly evident homophobia linked to the Tory party’s association with the facist Polish Law and Justice Party in the European Parliament?

Your party has sought to give the impression that it supports equal rights and freedom from discrimination for the gay and lesbian community, yet you have made the extraordinary and outrageous claim that “‘Homophobia’ is merely a propaganda device designed to denigrate and stigmatise those holding conventional opinions”.

The “conventional opinion” that you clearly seek to maintain is that gay and lesbian people should not be treated as totally equal and respectable members of our society.

You therefore clearly suffer from homophobia.

Would you be willing to make such a statement to the families of Michael Causer or Jody Dobroski, two gay men who were beaten to death because of their sexuality last year?

Zefrog – I would say again that Mr Helmer is not speaking for the Conservative Party but for himself. I am sure that the many of his constituents who disagree with his stance will make their views known to him in the usual way. By the way, Guys – if you are going to write to Mr Helmer, at least take the trouble to spell his name correctly…!

C’mon, guys! Abi found Helmer’s blog. I have found you can post a message there instantly without it being moderated.

Caution: don’t post anything which these toffee-nosed Tories can instantly dismiss as vulgar etc. Just stick to the facts and simply state that he has now demonstrated hatred towards and homophobia of gays and lesbians. (Remember Google indexes everything that is posted on Helmer’s site, so the more postings there are including the words Helmer and homophobia, the more hits and negative publicity the man will get!)

Sally, oops, I’ve copied Simon’s mis-spelling of Hateful Helmer’s surname! But only a cufking Tory would take the trouble to object to the mis-spelling of his name and not to the man’s outrageous public pronouncement against gays and lesbians!

Shame on you. Typical Tory. Go make some naice jarm with all the othair Torair gels!

i would like to raise a semantic point with you. the root phrase of homophobia does indeed suggest fear. in fact to apply strict translation it would mean “fear of the same”. however, in the same way that the word “mobile” has come to designate a cellular phone as well as the quality of being able to move, the word homophobia has now been used in society for many decades to describe the practice of treating gay people as though inferior to other people in society. this encompasses activities from unequal rights to the extreme cases of violence (sometimes lethal) perpetrated against people on the basis of their sexuality. this has been demonstrated in the uk over the last few years as well as in other places.

in this sense homophobia – when it is talked about is not so much of a politcal agenda as a word used to describe an experience that many gay people still face in their day to day living.

so my question is – would you deny that inequality exists and that violence is still something that gay people face in their day to day living.

Not to go off the boil here – but mythologising homophobia is tantamount to sanctioning murder. While not directly saying so, the implication is loud and clear: turn the other cheek while the faggots get bashed. When (or if) questioned, Mr Helmar will doubtless define homophobia – or his weak minded definition of it, anyway – in such broad strokes as to obscure the venom at its heart. Dirty, political Tory spin at its ugliest.

However, I was amused by the not-at-all patronising comment left earlier by an obvious Tory supporter which politely confirmed that she “personally believe[s] that homophobia does exist and causes grief to many.”

How insightful!

I “personally” believe that racism exists too, and would never dream of defending any such moronic fantasist
on those terms either.

Homophobia “personally” (directly or indirectly) cost me my job, my livelihood, my health, and overall sense of self-worth. Gay men and women being harassed in the street, treat with indifference, contempt, or even outright murder is the sting-in-the-tail legacy left by Mr Helmar and his poisonous ilk.

Paul – there was a first reference in the Tory’s report on Social Justice in July 2007. The report was on tax breaks for married couples and made it clear that all refences to marriage included civil partnerships, therefore those in civil partnerships would get the extra 20 quid a week they were offering plus a few other bits and pieces, that straight couples were going to get.

Not enough to cause us all to go charging into civil partnerships, but an indication that the few extra coppers that straight couples would get, would also come to us.

Roger Helmer is speaking the truth. The Gaystapo have for years been peddling this propaganda. Both the Crown Prosecution service and the Advertising Standards Agency, that is presently headed up by the homosexual, Lord Chris Smith ASA, seem to be working in concert to discriminate against Christians.
An ad placed by The Gay Police Association in the Independent in June 2006 featured a photograph of a Bible next to a pool of blood and the slogan,

“In the name of the father,” and read, “In the last 12 months, the Gay Police Association has recorded a 74% increase in homophobic incidents where the sole or primary motivating factor was the religious belief of the perpetrator.”

There was no substantive evidence as to who had done what, where, when or to whom. This was blatant incitement to Christianophobia. Fifty thousand complainants, including myself felt threatened and offended by the ad and yet the Crown Prosecution Service said words to the effect that it was not in the public interest to pursue the case.
If Christians had reacted violently to this ad, there is no way that the GPA would have been found guilty of disturbing the peace or stirring up hatred towards themselves, as 65 year old Harry Hammond was in Bournemouth in 2001. He was surrounded and knocked to the ground by a mob of nearly 30 homophiles, and apart from being fined £300 and £350 costs for disturbing the peace, he died a short time afterwards. Gays win whether they are the ones doing the attacking or the ones being attacked.

When asked to name murder victims of so called homophobia, Ben Summerskill keeps regurgitating the same two names. And any increase in the numbers of homophobic incidents is simply declared, without any documentation being asked for.

He talks as though the gays are being targeted disproportionately more than the rest of society, but He fails to mention that Between 1st January 2008 and the 21st June 2009 over seventy teenagers had died violent deaths in the UK, none of whose deaths, of which I am aware, were motivated by homophobia. There is no mention of adults like Mr Garry Newlove who have also been murdered in broad daylight by teenagers, or that a quarter of teachers in the UK have had to deal with violent students in the classroom. How many of these were homophobic incidents? The disorder and increased levels violence that we experience in Britain are due to the kind of nihilism and deconstruction of morals and categories being advanced by Stonewall et al. The promotion of homosexuality is doing nothing more than pouring petrol on an a society already in meltdown.

But what about crimes committed by homosexuals? Are they innocent?

Summerskill makes no mention of children who were abused by homosexual paedophiles whilst in the tender care of social services in Islington, North Wales, Wakefield and on the Island of Jersey (where investigation of homosexual abuse of children is still being conducted). There is no mention of mass homosexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Homes in Ireland, nor that conducted by monsters like Michael Goad in Devon whose received a derisory prison sentence after destroying the lives of hundreds of his male victims.

What about James Rennie, a publicly funded chief executive of LGBT youth Scotland who was a key adviser on sex education to the Scottish Executive? He was convicted of sexual abuse over four years of a young boy that started when only a 3-month-old baby and the attempted rape of an 18-month-old boy. Rennie was at the centre of Scotland’s biggest paedophile network and the police are investigating another 70 men throughout the UK. How many lives have been destroyed?

If Summerskill wants to back – date his evidence to 2005 why do we not mention Jonathan Scarcliffe and David Bell who were part of an international paedophile ring that assaulted little boys as young as 17 months and who put thousands of child porn images, along with films made at various locations including a Warwick park and a Leamington swimming pool, on the internet?

But let us exercise mercy by limiting our evidence to late 2008 and 2009

Stephen Carruthers and John Bates, gay lovers for 10-years, were sentenced at Preston Crown Court for a series of sexual offences on four 14-year-old boys. They were given an indeterminate prison sentence. Both men had a string of similar convictions dating back to the 1980’s.

Anthony Morley, the first winner of Mr Gay UK stabbed a gay man to death before cutting part of his thigh off and cooking it in olive oil, seasoning it with fresh herbs and eating it.

Beverley Margaret McManus, throttled to death Margaret Desmond, 50, her lesbian lover of 17 years after an argument about money

Jonathan Wicks with the help of Neil Warner, brutally attacked his former lover Kieran Dulai

Oral Seaton, butchered his former gay lover Winston Dow-Stephenson, to death in a frenzied knive attack of 100 blows.

Daryl Phillips was stabbed to death by gay partner Robin Clarke, in a London street.

Nadim Kurrimbukus doused his gay lover, Charlie Davies, in petrol and burnt him to death.

Joyce Cullen, mother-of-four, almost stabbed to death Sandra Armitage, her lesbian lover of 28 years because she thought Armitage ‘fancied’ a neighbour.

No mention is made of these examples of murder visited by homosexuals on each other, nor that of straight forward sexual violence, such as that practised by Boy George.

Should homosexuals be given extra protection when the very young and elderly are neglected? When we talk of bullying, what would 200 000 babies (or for that matter children in general) who as part of the government’s Surestart Programme were exterminated last year, say to the fact that they are not represented at the table of the Commissioners for Human Rights and Equality, around which Ben Summerskill sits as one of the commissioners.?

In passing there is some idiot, high on something I would imagine, using my name; so this will be my one and only entry.

Auntie Jack – And next thing you’re going to provide hard evidence that gay criminals form a disproportionate ratio of the gay population when compared to a similar sample group of straight people are you? See if you can find statistics outside Conservipedia or Narth for this assignment.
Thankyou for proving our point for us, that homophobia does exist and that you are the epitome of it.

How do the Tories think they are going to get voted in? Speaking to a group of older people tonight they said they would “not” be getting there votes, they said Camron wants to take away there heating allowance, free bus pass, free TV license and much, much more! They said he is now supporting the “Right to Die” campaign and would rater older people just committed suicide at 60!

* Hitler was a vegetarian. Hitler was pure evil. Therefore, vegetarians have evil ideals.
* All dogs have four legs; my cat has four legs. Therefore, my cat is a dog. (This argument is made by the wordplay-prone Sir Humphrey Appleby in the BBC sitcom Yes, Prime Minister).
* Barack Obama does not wear a United States flag lapel pin. A lapel pin represents patriotism. Therefore, Barack Obama is not patriotic.

Metropolitan Police show a 13.5 per cent rise in homophobic hate crimes reported across London. Between June 2008 and the end of June 2009, 1,123 incidents were reported, compared with 989 the previous year.

Mr Helmar/Himler might want to deny the existence of homophobia but the statistics show its on the rise. People like the BNP deny the holocaust during WW2 where LGBT people where also murdered.

He should try living our lives eh!!?? Seriously, the irony, in commenting that homophobia doesn’t exist, he makes more than a few homophobic comments!!!! Particulalry loving the “‘Homophobia’ is merely a propaganda device designed to denigrate and stigmatise those holding conventional opinions, which have been held by most people through most of recorded history……It is frightening evidence of the way in which political correctness is threatening our freedom.” What an A hole.

One in five lesbian and gay people have been victims of homophobic aggression over the past three years, a survey of hate crime revealed today.
Their experiences ranged from beatings and sexual assault to persistent harassment and insults, often from neighbours and colleagues.
The gay rights charity Stonewall said the lives of Britain’s 3.6 million lesbian and gay people were overshadowed by the fear of homophobic crime.
It commissioned YouGov to carry out the first comprehensive national survey into the problem, questioning more than 1,700 lesbian, gay and bisexual people.
The poll found a homophobic crime or incident had been experienced by 12.5% over the past year and 20% over the past three years.
One in six of the victims had been physically assaulted and one in eight had been subjected to unwanted sexual contact. Almost nine in 10 had experienced homophobic insults and harassment.
Three-quarters of the victims had not reported the incident to the police, often because they did not think the complaint would be investigated.
Only 1% of hate crimes that were reported to the police resulted in a conviction. Two-thirds of victims who reported incidents to the police were not offered advice or referred to support services.
Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, congratulated the charity for undertaking “this timely research”.
She said: “We are determined that lesbian and gay people should have the confidence to report crimes to the police knowing they will be taken seriously, the crime investigated and their privacy respected.”
She said the findings of the poll would be considered by the ministerial action group on violence, which is investigating further action on hate crimes.
The charity was prompted to commission the poll by the murder of Jody Dobrowski, a 24-year-old assistant bar manager who was beaten to death in a homophobic assault on Clapham Common, south London, in 2005.
Almost half the lesbian and gay people in the survey thought they were at greater risk of being physically assaulted than a heterosexual. One third said they altered their behaviour so as not to appear lesbian or gay in an attempt to avoid becoming a victim of crime.
One in 10 said being a victim of crime was their biggest worry, more than being ill or having financial debts.
The survey showed lesbian and gay people were more likely to
report crimes in areas where the police were gay-friendly employers. Hampshire, South Wales and Lothian were praised for taking homophobic hate crimes seriously.
Stonewall said all police officers should be trained to recognise homophobic hate crimes. Other recommendations included stronger action against homophobic bullying in schools and a zero-tolerance policy against bullying in the workplace.
Ben Summerskill, the chief executive of Stonewall, said: “This was the first statistically significant national survey into the extent and nature of homophobic hate crime. The experiences it has uncovered are shocking. We hope the whole criminal justice system will now rise to the challenges that this research poses.”

The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) said the findings would help the police improve the service.

Mike Cunningham, the deputy chief constable of Lancashire and Acpo’s spokesman on equality, said: “It cannot be acceptable that a third of victims do not report incidents to the police because they do not think the police would, or could, do anything about it. Neither is it right that two thirds of those who reported incidents to the police were not offered or referred to advice or support services. The findings offer the service a real opportunity to make real improvements

Will calm yourself, otherwise you’ll have a seizure. There is no requirement to use capital letters or intemperate language. Just try writing in sentences without ad hominems, temper tantrums and filthy language. Best if I leave you now.

Received an automatic reply back from Helmer’s email address, advising that the European Parliament is now in recess until late August and that in the interim messages should be sent to Helmer’s assistant at:

Calm myself? Please, it takes a smart person to ruffle my feathers, and you are no whwre near it.

The capitals are for you.

They are to make it obvious for a intellectual deficient like you to understand the stupidity of your own lies.

They are necessary.

See?

Oh, and Nick (I’m sure you are just another personality of that fool) I was just pointing out the stupidity of the examples given by King Kong, that because one gay person acts violently, then all the other hundreds of millions of gay people are equally violent. Its utter nonsense, isn’t it?

Thank you for showing that the association is ridiculous. You have proven my point perfectly, and shown up King King for the fool he is. Much appreciate the assistance. Thank you.

The comments by Tory M.E.P Roger Helmer are indicative of the average member of the Tory Party. For an M.E.P to come out with such comments is very worrying however not surprising for a Tory M.E.P. When we see the Gay Tories parading them selves at Pride in Manchester at the end of the month we could maybe ask them thier opinion about Roger Helmer.

I see Stewart Cowan is back again with his thinly veiled hateblog. Yeah, Stewart, we’re all dying to read another diatribe of your puerile “journalism” on how the “Gays” are all out to destroy civilisation! Just let me stab myself in the eyes first….

Yawn. I don’t feel up to destroying civilisation today with my infectious “gayness”, but maybe tomorrow I’ll give my adorable partner of 8 years a hug and wipe out western society… but I’ll see how I feel tomorrow.

Zae, (70) yours is the only voice of sanity on this thread and said without malice but simply as a matter of fact. If someone keeps pushing something in your face, demanding unreasonable rights at the expense of everybody else; if someone starts to get at your children, filling their impressionable minds with lies and distortions which you know are going to put them in emotional, mental social and physical danger; in short if someone starts to groom and pervert your children, it is hardly likely that the public, especially the more extreme and violent sections of it, is simply going to keep tolerating it. There will be an inevitable backlash. The gays will have wished that they had been content with the concessions made in the late 60s of simply being tolerated. Instead of which they have become a militant and proselytising force, invading our schools, work places and homes. Homophobic violence might yet become a self -fulfilled prophecy. All they need to do is keep pushing.

Ummmmm, I’ve always wondered why ‘gay hating’ people are on pinknews in the first place…..surely it can’t be soley to spit their purile and vile bile out all over the place……anyone for the self hating closet??!!

“If we’re going to punish someone for speaking their mind, when will it ever end?”

Speaking their mind is fine.

What we won’t tolerate is hate or lies in the guise of “free speech”. These people are here to spread unproven and wild accusations, hate, and petty religious nonsense. This is not free speech.

As you can see, their version of “free speech” is to say that gay people “starts to groom and pervert your children”, or “someone starts to get at your children” (Comment#73). IS it right to teach our children that the earth is 6,000 old and that science is “wrong”, as these “Melchior, Balthazar, and Gaspar”/other stupid names, are so keen to do? Untruths are not “free speech”.

Racism isn’t free speech. Neither is homophobia. These people are keen on the protections of a democracy but they don’t support them for others.

And to stamp out this hate and fear of science is always going to be the goal of the enlightened. Otherwise the darkness wins.

Fascinating that, when pushed into a corner, some of the repeat-visitor homophobes on here (or is it just the one, with many heads all spitting venom) immediately start with their vile, dishonest claims that gay people are a danger to children. It demonstrates the black, dishonest hatefulness in their hearts, and I’m sure they’ll never come to terms with the fact that gay men and lesbians are no danger to children – or that the abuse and neglect of children is overwhelmingly carried out by heterosexual parents and their heterosexual partners.

MYTH #6: Gay men tend to be pedophiles and molest children.
The perpetrators of child sexual abuse are overwhelmingly men; very few women are offenders. The abuser is usually a member of the child’s family or someone known by the family. Pedophiles, men who have a sexual preference for children, constitute less than 1% of the adult male population. Pedophiles are quite distinct from adult gay men who prefer adult sexual partners. Studies have shown no correlation between a man’s sexual orientation and a tendency to sexually abuse children

Homosexual pedophiles are considered a perversion of the normal homosexual man in the same way that heterosexual pedophiles are also a perversion. Heterosexual men are twice as likely to sexually abuse children as homosexual men are. There is solid evidence that over 92% of child abuse cases, including same gender sexual abuse, are perpetrated by heterosexuals.

The number of reported child abuse cases have increased over the past five years. It is crucial that we address the issue of child sexual abuse objectively and recognize that this abuse is occurring behind to many closed doors in so-called traditional family homes.

Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority’s most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women.
In a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children. Back in 1977, when Anita Bryant campaigned successfully to repeal a Dade County (FL) ordinance prohibiting anti-gay discrimination, she named her organization “Save Our Children,” and warned that “a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children” (Bryant, 1977, p. 114). [Bibliographic references are on a different web page]

In recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are child molesters. This argument was often made in debates about the Boy Scouts of America’s policy to exclude gay scouts and scoutmasters. More recently, in the wake of Rep. Mark Foley’s resignation from the US House of Representatives in 2006, antigay activists and their supporters seized on the scandal to revive this canard.

It has also been raised in connection with scandals about the Catholic church’s attempts to cover up the abuse of young males by priests. Indeed, the Vatican’s early response to the 2002 revelations of widespread Church cover-ups of sexual abuse by priests was to declare that gay men should not be ordained.

“unreasonable rights at the expense of everybody else; if someone starts to get at your children, filling their impressionable minds with lies and distortions which you know are going to put them in emotional, mental social and physical danger; in short if someone starts to groom and pervert your children”

The above is straight out of the addled brain of a “Daily Hate” reader (a.k.a, a reader of “The Daily Mail”.)

Good to see that PinkNews is following these threads and blacklisting the one or two hate-filled homophobes who come here to spit their bile and spew their irrationality, and that PinkNews is forcing these few homophobes to have to invent new IDs in order to post.

PinkNews, can you not blacklist their IP numbers, so that no amount of shape-shifting will work? Other forums do it. We encounter enough hatred and hostility out there without having to fight it here. The PinkNews threads should provide us with “a safe pro-gay place”.

David Mixner who was recently wined and dined by Sarah Brown at No10 Downing Street, was asked if he thought whether gay sexuality was all about sexual passion or whether there was room for lasting relationships. Mixner answered ,

“ Well first of all I don’t see anything wrong with passionate relationships , or short term relationships if it is enriching ,and nourishing and exciting for the individuals involved, and healthy for both parties. I try not to put parameters around anyone else’s relationship if they are happy. But I think one the things that we have explored and maybe one of the gifts we bring society is that because we have not allowed to be officially sanctioned our relationships, in a number of ways, then we have had to explore alternatives. And I think that in many ways that we are seeing that many in the heterosexual community are copying some of those alternative ways that people can be together, love each other in a healthy wonderful positive sense and the same time meet the needs of a very complex society in which we live in.”

Folks really need to listen to what this man is saying which is that heterosexuals have a lot to learn from homosexuals whom he regards are at the very cutting edge, avant garde, of exploring all manner of sexual life-styles that are unhindered by constraints, time limits, numbers of partners or self-control. Naturally Mixner’s philosophy has huge implications with regard to the stability, cohesion and the very existence of the family.

As for free speech, why should the gays be free to slander, offend and incite hatred of Christians, whilst denying that same freedom to the critics of homosexuality. If the gays stop spreading lies about us, we will stop telling the truth about them.

Grow up people, stop running away and engage in debate . Or in the words of David Mixne, freedom of speech can be “ enriching, nourishing and exciting for the individuals involved and healthy for both parties.”

“If the gays stop spreading lies about us, we will stop telling the truth about them.”

And again with the one sided “poor-me I can’t persecute” nonsense.

“unhindered by constraints, time limits, numbers of partners or self-control.”

Really? And I suppose heterosexuals are time bound, limited to a maximum number of partners, and have perfect self control? I must have missed something. Last time I checked divorce was sky hight due to infidelity of straight people. Another nonsense and biased statement by the “group” of fools.

Don’t feel yourselves. You are not engaging in free speech, you are engaging the proliferation of religious bigotry, lies, and falsehoods.

I woudl ask you grow up, stop using religious to mask your hate, and perhaps step into the light.

I provide you proof of this: In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that “Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics.”

It amasses me that they are so obsessed with gay people simply wanting to have protection for their relationships. The lies they try to believe, and perpetuate, are astounding.

And for what? The “sanctity” of marriage? Yes, lets protect the sanctity of Britney Spears 55-hour “just for fun” marriage. Or the sanctity of the 75% of marriages that end in divorce. Or what about Katie Price (aka Jordan) desperate to have a baby with her partner as she believes getting pregnant will bring her and her new partner closer as a couple. She’s been dating him a frickin MONTH! Or Fred West… what a great parent he made.

Ironic that “traditionalists” want to stop gay people doing what is “traditional” and all the while the rest of the “straight” world pisses all over parenting and marriage. If you ask me, gay people can only do it better.

And now there’s “kevin”…. what’s wrong Melchior/Balthazar/Gaspar, can’t make a point with out imitating someone else and making up lies. No one regrets coming out. Of the hundreds of millions of us, there are simply a handful of people who think they are ex-gay because they are weak or brainwashed into it.#

They’re not really ex-gay of course, they just call themselves that to get approval from lesser creatures like you. Its unfortunate, but they’re such a very, very, very, small percentage. The rest of us are stronger…. more so because if people like you.

If gays stop telling lies about themselves and about the Bible, We will stop telling the truth about the homosexual narcissistic fascination with sex and death.

However, we also apologise and repent for the way the so called straights ourselves included) who make up 98 – 99% of the population, (apart from Brighton and Soho where we are guessing it is probably about 90%) are responsible for adultery and the breakdown in marriage. It was us, as far back as the sixties, who started to separate sex from marriage that has inevitably, after all these decades, led to the melt down in society that we see today. Any last restraint by the straights is now going to be cast aside as the gays beckon them us into unexplored territory: polyamory, polygamy, incest, pederasty, paedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia and all the rest of it.

As for your quote about Britney Spears and Kate Price et al, bravo; we could not agree with you more. There is hope yet. We do agree that there is a moral order. Thank God for this.

The Times, 5th August, in an article entitled, “First the civil partnerships, now the civil dissolutions” said:

“In terms of break-ups and heartache, gay couples are starting to catch up with their straight counterparts. Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show a big fall in civil partnerships and a sharp increase in same-sex dissolutions.
The number of couples entering a civil partnership has dropped 18 per cent – from 8,728 in 2007 to 7,169 in 2008. Dissolutions, the equivalent to a heterosexual divorce, have increased fourfold – from 42 to 180.…….”

“While a significantly higher number of gay men enter civil partnerships, more lesbians decide to dissolve them – 116 of 180 registered dissolutions were by female couples.”

And Will, it is pointless quoting this or that survey when those conducting them are obviously biased and using suspect methodology. But what do surveys and consensus show anyway, apart from mass delusion? Probably 90% of the passengers aboard the Titanic believed that the ship was unsinkable, even after it had struck the ice berg.

However, again, we agree the guns need to trained not on the gays but turned around on our own, who approve of adultery, fornication and pornography. None of us has clean hands ( read Romans 2); but do we want the Muslims to sort us out? That will be one hell of an outing.

And Kevin (88) don’t be confused. We as Christians do not worship a God of confusion. Christ said know the truth and be set free.

I have proven NARTH to be nothing but a nazi organisation with a fascist agenda:
2008 May: THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF PSYCHIATRISTS, expressed the opinion that not only do the methods recommended by the NARTH group of Christian Psychiatrists not work, but that the methods create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.
July 2009 NARYH: “a singular conclusion: Homosexuality is not innate, immutable or without significant risk to medical, psychological, and relational health.” Yet, despite the fact that NARTH concludes that homosexuality develops after a person is born, they provide no review of the evidence which addresses that topic. How very unscientific of them. Surely the evidence is in abundance as they suggest? No? Clearly not.
NARTH’s Dr. Spitzer’s “Archives of Sexual Behaviour” paper has been criticized for using non-random sampling and poor criteria for success:-
– The then APA president, Lawrence Hartmann, a professor at Harvard Medical School, called Spitzer’s study “too flawed to publish.”
– Psychologist Douglas Haldeman of the University of Washington commented that there is no credible scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed, “and this study doesn’t prove that either.”
– The key issue here was all or almost all of the 200 subjects interviewed were referred by reparative therapists or by Christian transformational ministries. Apparently all or almost all of the clients were evangelical Christians.
All the following Organisations have spoken out against NARTH, stating that NARTH is not scientific, and anti-gay agenda driven:-
– American Psychiatric Association
– American Psychological Association
– American Counseling Association
– National Association of Social Workers
– American Academy of Pediatrics
– American Association of School Administrators
– American Federation of Teachers
– National Association of School Psychologists
– National Education Association

“In terms of break-ups and heartache, gay couples are starting to catch up with their straight counterparts.”

Then let’s stop straights getting married. They’re clearly worse at monogamous relationships than we are. These are your words.

“We as Christians do not worship a God of confusion. Christ said know the truth and be set free.”

You’re not christians. Christians follow the word of Jesus. You don’t. And “Kevin” is so obviously your posting. This means you’re either pathetic, or mad.

I’m siding with pathetic.

All the hallmarks of the losing side.

I have already proven you’re stupidity, with help from you, of course, to back up my findings with your silly no sense comments.

I quote again:- I provide you proof of this: In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that “Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics.”

The simple fact is that its irrelevant how many there are of us. Or how many CP’s break-up.

So what? We’re here. And we are many. We’re entitled to rights. These are inalienable truths. Noting you, or your sad kind can change this.

Oh, and we’re winning. Your attempts here are noting but a whisper of an echo against our voice

Dont be confused, Easy for you to say that. I never had a father like you. mom said i was adopted . Thats why life is so cofusing for me. All peoples ore lying to me . Nobody talks to me at the pride Parade. A brown man from the salvating army choir saw me crying alone and he drove me all the way home. mom said like you about freedom and truth and Jesus. I dont mind Jesus, he’s okay with me, but all paoples in the churches are fighting now anyway.
I hope to finish college and go away somewhere alone with my dog and find some works to pat for my own place. Do you peoples know what you are talking about I dont not a waord. you confuse all the eoples for what.

1992: A study of 8,337 British men found that 6.1% have had a “homosexual experience” and 3.6% had “1+ homosexual partner ever.”[Johnson AM, Wadsworth J, Wellings K, Bradshaw S, Field J (December 1992). “Sexual lifestyles and HIV risk”]

2005: HM Treasury and the Department for Trade and Industry completed a survey to help the Government analyse the financial implications of the Civil Partnerships Act (such as pensions, inheritance and tax benefits). They concluded that there were 3.6 million gay people in the United Kingdom – around 6% of the total population or 1 in 16.66 people.

I can prove my statements. Can you? Without using NARTH rubbish, of course, proven to be unscientific.

Oh, and Pringle, are you another of the many personalities to recently emerge out of this rather deluded nutter? 15 minutes ago he was a gay man who just come out but was “confused”. Yesterday he was a rabid hateful Christian. Talk about split personality, I surprised he knows who he is form day to day!

(The give away was the “Evidence please?” line!)

Now, you go prove the fossil record, and why it lies.

Oh, no! You can’t prove it wrong? How sad. Don’t you feel stupid now? I am sooooo embarrassed for you, right now! Mortified!

Paul Gebhard, Kinsey’s successor as director of the Kinsey Institute for Sex Research, dedicated years to reviewing the Kinsey data and culling its purported contaminants. In 1979, Gebhard (with Alan B. Johnson) concluded that none of Kinsey’s original estimates were significantly affected by the perceived bias, finding that 36.4% of men had engaged in both heterosexual and homosexual activities, as opposed to Kinsey’s 37%.

36.4%????? WOW. A lot of homosexual stuff going on there. So, they’re all gay? Or maybe 36.4% of the population don’t have the same hangups you do.

Greta stuff there Will. Pringle, or what ever you are calling yourself today, are you saying you don’t ‘believe’ in the fossil record, but you don’t understand _why_ you don’t believe in the fossil record!?!?!?!?!!? That’s just madness. Anyway, does it matter how many gays are in the world, we are entitled to basic rights, and one of those rights is freedom from persecution and freedom to be with who we want. Its no ones business, including yours Pringle. Freedoms some of these religious nazi freaks here seem to think they can remove from others simple because they think they are talking to god and don’t understand/agree with someone else way of life. Again, madness. And they call themselves followers of Jesus!?!?!?!?

1.The Johnson et, al., study does not prove what you claim. Read it more carefully. Heterosexuals, too, sometimes indulge in a ‘homosexual experience’.

2.The Trade & Industry ‘survey’ does not identify 3.6 million homosexuals. That figure was contrived by Observer reporter Mark Townsend. Read it more carefully.

3.Please, please do not quote anything to do with the Kinsey report because it has now been thoroughly discredited.

4.You might be interested to know that the British Health Protection Agency; which is concerned with the increasing spread of HIV/AIDS, identifies only 502.626 homosexual men. Go on, check out their website!

1.The Johnson et, al., study does not prove what you claim. Read it more carefully. Heterosexuals, too, sometimes indulge in a ‘homosexual experience’.

Really? So they’re all gay?

2.The Trade & Industry ‘survey’ does not identify 3.6 million homosexuals. That figure was contrived by Observer reporter Mark Townsend. Read it more carefully.

I did read it. There is the Guardian’s take:

“Six per cent of the population, or about 3.6 million Britons, are either gay or lesbian, the government’s first attempt to quantify the homosexual population has concluded.

Whitehall officials have answered the much-debated question ‘how many of us are gay?’ by declaring that the true number is one in 16.66. Previous answers have ranged from one in five to as few as one in a hundred, and many people have believed the figure to be one in ten.

Treasury actuaries came up with the estimate when analysing the financial implications of the new Civil Partnerships Act, which comes into force this month and allows same-sex partners to marry and gives them similar rights to married couples in areas such as tax, pensions and inheritance.

There are an estimated 1.5 million to two million gay men, lesbians and bisexuals in the 30 million-strong workforce, according to the Department of Trade and Industry. Given the UK population is just under 60 million, that means that the gay community has between three and four million members.”

So, wrong again, eh Pringle?

3.Please, please do not quote anything to do with the Kinsey report because it has now been thoroughly discredited.

I didn’t quote it. YOU read MY comment again.

And I will quote the last comment by Robbie, who says it very well “Anyway, does it matter how many gays are in the world, we are entitled to basic rights, and one of those rights is freedom from persecution and freedom to be with who we want”

So, really. What proof do you have that means we don’t deserve our rights?

This might take a while, but you and your loved ones can have fun placing bets on how long it takes for them to get flustered and leave.

Ask them to explain the story of Elisha and the Forty two children. You may have to resort to another method to actually get rid of them, but this will definitely make them sweat. (2 Kings in Chapter 2, umm… somewhere near the end).

Excuse yourself from the front door and DO NOT come back.

Make a series of increasingly reprehensible fake phone calls. (bookie, order for pornography, drug deal, obscene call, and if they are STILL there, a tearful confession to the police for the murder of the last ex-gay Fundies who visited you.)

Pick an often repeated word in their vocabulary (God, Jesus, heaven, it, the etc.) and giggle whenever they utter it. If they ask you what’s going on, say “nothing, why?” in very even tones, and giggle again.

Guys can show an intense interest in their spiel. Part way through, begin putting on make-up, hosiery, a dress, the whole works. (make encouraging noises [uh huh, I see…] throughout and if they ask you what you’re doing, ask them if they could pass you a couple of condoms.

If they’re still there when you are done, Ask them if they would please kindly leave as you have a hot date in ten minutes.

“And I will quote the last comment by Robbie, who says it very well “Anyway, does it matter how many gays are in the world, we are entitled to basic rights, and one of those rights is freedom from persecution and freedom to be with who we want””

A team of sociologists–Edward Laumann, Robert Michael, Stuart Michaels, and John Gagnon–has completed the most thorough study of American sexual behavior ever done. Laumann et al. worked with the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago, the all-stars of survey research, to select 3,500 subjects, ranging in age from 18 to 59, who would make up a random cross-section of the population. The findings were surprisingly, well, conservative. Americans turn out to be predominantly monogamous. Almost three-quarters of the married men, and 85 per cent of the married women, said they had been faithful. They are also over-whelmingly straight. Only 2.7 per cent of the men and 1.3 per cent of the women said they had engaged in homosexual sex in the last year. So much for the one-in-ten orthodoxy.
That discredited percentage–like much of our sexual conventional wisdom–came from Alfred Kinsey’s 1948 best-seller, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. Specialists have long known that Kinsey’s research was unreliable, but the Laumann report has compelled the mainstream media to acknowledge this with brutal frankness. Thus Time: “Kinsey took his human subjects where he could find them: in boardinghouses, college fraternities, prisons and mental wards…. It was hardly a random cross-section.” This is the second lesson of the Laumann report: Professor Kinsey and the horde of popularizers and soi-disant researchers who followed in his wake were not neutral observers but cheerleaders, exhorting us to emigrate to a brave new world which they described as if we were already there. Their “findings” were embraced by an entertainment industry eager to cash in on titillation.

You repeat the same falsehood as Ben Summerskill of Stonewall who claims inh the Observer today that Michael Causer’s murder was a homophobic crime. A man well qualified in law and in the giving of evidence – the judge – formally declared at the trial that it was NOT a homophobic crime.

Marie Causer, like you, may have her own thoughts, but that is all they are. It is also very obvious that a homosexual lobby in Liverpool have got at her to convince her it’s a homophobic murder because it is in their interest to do so. The more such murders provide greater justification for the claim of widespread homophobia. But of course, Summerskill can only really lay claim to one such murder – that of Jody Dobrowski on Clapham Common in 2005.

I’m also friends with girls from my school who actually knew Mickey (as he was affectionately known) and his family. His mother has her own mind and she sees his murder for what it was.

One of the assailants shouted (as they beat him) “He’s a little queer he deserves it”. – Is that not telling enough?

The other repeatedly called him a “Faggot”.

Michael was asleep, yes asleep, when he was attacked.

You tell me then, since you have all the answers, what other motive was behind the attack?

And you think judges are untouchable? You only have to look at the woeful decisions in our courts today to realise that the law is an ass, and I should know. I’ve studided it long enough.

Or perhaps you would like to explain why me and my girlfriend were followed by two males, who shouted sexually charged insults at us, called us ‘dykes’ and ‘fuckin’ lesbians’ before they physically attacked us. Can you explain to me, if not homophonic, what they were and what their motive was?

Your observaations regarding what was said are immaterial to the central question of whether the killing was, or was not, homophobic.

In law you have to deal with the question of “mens rea” the guilty knowledge of the assailant. What was in HIS mind – not others.

Also consider this? Gavin Alker, who was charged with the homophobic killing of Mr Causer, was CLEARED by the jury. The trial judge, Mr Justice Timothy King ruled that the conviction of murder against 20-year-old James O’Connor was NOT a homophobic killing.

Immediately after the trial ended Tommy MCllravey, a spokesman for the Liverpool homosexual lobby, expressed his dissatisfaction on the BBC television North West News. He CLAIMED Causer’s death was a homophobic murder. Obviously, you like him, know better than the trial judge.

Further, your story about being followed by two males sounds hollow. I’ve heard tales like this all too often from both homosexual man and women who want to play the victimhood card.

Please do continue to suspend reality. A common feature of homosexual politics.

“Please do continue to suspend reality. A common feature of homosexual politics.”

Don’t you mean “Please do continue to dispel reality. A common feature of religious idiots.”

Pringle, pringle, pringle. So now, let me get this right, because the crime wasn’t homophobic (even thought is is obvious it was), therefore (and I stretch the realms of reasonable logic for you and your diseased mind), other gay people are what? Not worthy of equality, or rights. Your points are puerile, ill thought and immutable.

Thankfully only a couple of people think like you do. Soon you’ll all be dead, and not replaced. But we’ll be here forever.

The greatest in is that of stupidity, and boy have you been sinning! You’re in your own hell.

“Further, your story about being followed by two males sounds hollow. I’ve heard tales like this all too often from both homosexual man and women who want to play the victimhood card”

Then I’d invite you to follow behind me and my girlfriend as we walk through the city centre where we live. It’s a rare occasion when we don’t get verbal abuse like Lezabella’s detailed above, and have even been physically attacked. As this attack was accompanied by offensive and homophobic insults, I’m in no doubt that it WAS homophobic. Straight men can’t cope with women who don’t need them.

Oh,a nd if you’re upandatem (or one of his ten friends) maybe you could answer my question and tell me which denomination of Christianity you belong to? Even if you’re not upandatem, I’d still be interested to know.

Not only do we not believe that homosexuals are being disproportionately being murdered and bullied any more than the remaining 98- 99% of the population but neither do we believe in their existence – period. We call this the homosexual delusion. There are many people who claim to have seen a homosexual but we have never seen one. Where is the evidence? Where is the proof? What do they look like? Are they pink with fluffy ears and webbed feet? At least with a black man, We can see him at four hundred paces.

To be fair, in a way We can understand the mistake: simple people pick up a handful of books claiming to be written by the Queer Queen of Heaven, or his apostles such as Alfred Kinsey, Ian Mckellen, Ben Summerskill or Peter Tatchell and since a Queer Queen of Heaven seems to be a sufficient account for how these books got to be there, for the similarities in all the texts, and so on – they stick with commonsense and fallaciously conclude that this being (which they have never seen with their own eyes) actually exists.

Of course, some people do claim to have seen the “Queen“, and even shaken his hand but there’s no shortage of liars in the world, and undoubtedly
some people who claim to have had these Queen experiences are deliberately telling fairy stories, but, you know, the human brain is a very, very complicated thing… and conjuring up an imaginary Queen would be child’s play for it. Christopher Robin had Binker. Richard Dawkins had the slimy custard man. We suspect that something very similar is happening with people who claim to have seen a Queen or heard his voice, or felt his cold touch.

Admittedly there are also no end of gay parades composed of strutting, sweating gesticulating, grunting and cavorting devotees who worship the Queen, singing the hymn, “The Love that dares to speak its name” but what does this prove except that mass delusion is frighteningly possible.

Internet sites such as Outrage, Stonewall, LGBT History month are certainly no proof that the Queer queen exists . As a scientist it is no answer to the question ’ where did this inane rubbish come from?’ To stick a label on them that says “ Queen ” or the gospel according to Peter Tatchell or Alfred Kinsey or Sharron Ferguson is no answer at all.

Each internet site is a simple re-arrangement of only 26 letters. Even a child should be able to see that, with a little random shuffling of vowels and consonants on a computer, one can arrive at all sorts of patterns like that. Working out how each letter got into the place that it did is the business of science. Claiming that the Queen of Heaven did it puts an end to an inquiry that promises to give us a full and satisfying explanation of how these books came to be, without the need for invoking a discredited Queen -of-the-gaps-type
hypothesis.
Some people might point to the fact that the letters on the PinkPage , or Gaydar, for instance, are arranged in definite patterns, spelling out sophisticated chains of arguments, and that this is a clear mark of intelligence, not random accident.

Well, If there were some kind of intelligence behind these books and sites, then, judging by their contents, it is obviously a pretty poor one; we would hardly have lost much by not believing in the Queer Queen or in what his books have to say. The scientific view of the matter is beautifully simple and invigorating: the works of the “Queen” and all his apostles are nothing but a collection of fortuitously ordered a’s, b’s and c’s, recombined from previous patterns.
There are the jumbled Latin and Greek prefixes and suffixes, like philia, phobia, homo and hetero; there are the nonsense poems of Edward Lear, and there are the works of the Queen, and the one developed from the other, through a series of hallucinations, chicanery and random typing errors…though admittedly we haven’t got all of the details just now.

But If science doesn’t have the answers to where they came from, then, sure as hell, the Queen of Heaven doesn’t. If a Queen designed the books, then who designed the Queen? Just tell us that.

No the Queen of Heaven and all his followers can only be described as an ostentatiousacrimonioussuperciliouspusillanimouscalumniouscensoriousvituperativequerulousembitteredobsessive and bombastic bully.

Some might think that that’s going a bit over the top but one only has to read the threads on Pink News, or Peter Tatchell’s Outrage, or Stonewall to discover this is not so. Apart from finding no evidence whatsoever for an intelligence hiding somewhere beneath the paragraphs in the mystical realm of blind faith, you will discover, on the other hand, plenty of hatred, intolerance, bigotry and buffoonery in every sentence.

Believing in a Queen of Heaven is a dangerous delusion, but some might ask but what’s especially dangerous about people believing in his existence if it makes them happy? Makes them happy?
Well, for one fairly obvious reason: these people believe any book which has the
name gay on the cover, and these books say a lot of very silly things. Belief in the Queen and his apostles has been responsible for filling the internet with non-sequiturs, caricatures, strawmen and vitriol. Those of us who walk the heights and dare to doubt the assertions of this “smarter than thou” homosexual religion find themselves subjected to a modern inquisition – consisting mostly of the Mainstream Media and politically correct counsellors . We believe the Queen’s disciples, like Ian Mckellen are militant, they are organised, and they’re out to convert us and our children. Yes, we would certainly call this a dangerous delusion. If there is a Queen he has a lot to answer for, and one day will answer in full. We only hope Sir Richard Dennett is getting those rooms in the Tower of London aired and ready.

The trial revealed the following: violent attack on Michael Causer began after Alker discovered Michael causer was gay, having found footage of sex with a former boyfriend on the victim’s mobile.

Michael was dragged from his bed by his ankles by Alker and James O’Connor (a cage fighter, who admitted to murder), as he slept. According to witnesses, Alker first smashed a hardback book over the head of Michael, so hard, the book split in two, leaving a thin red line on Michael’s head. Alker was heard to say “‘He’s a little queer, he deserves it’. There followed frenzied kicks and punches that Alker and O’Connor delivered to Michael’s head and upper body, while shouting “You little queer faggot” – possibly the last words Michael heard – which were to prove fatal. Ignoring pleas to calm down, Alker proceeded to use a cigarette lighter to burn hairs on Michael Causer’s leg, and picked up a knife, threatening to rip his body piercings out.

Eventually, Causer, now unconscious and bleeding from the ears, nose and mouth, was dragged out into the street by the assailants and Michael Binsteed, who told the police Causer was attacked in the street. Binsteed inexplicably escaped custodial sentence.

So severe was the brain damage, Michael never came out of his coma, and on August 2nd, the life support machine was turned off. The post-mortem examination showed multiple face fractures with extensive haemorrhaging and neck bruises, consistent with the kicking that his assailants so brutally administered in that upstairs bedroom.

Despite the forensic evidence, corroborated witness statements that Michael (seven stone, five foot two – the judge was not even aware of these basic details about Causer) was sleeping and dragged from his bed when the attack was initiated, the support of the police throughout this case, the jury swallowed Alker’s story, that he acted in ‘self defence’, hook, line and sinker.

Do you have any extra evidence to add to the Causer case that we do not know of, Pringle? What explanation do you have for Gavin Alker’s psycopathic rage? Please, tell us.

“In law you have to deal with the question of “mens rea” the guilty knowledge of the assailant. What was in HIS mind – not others.”

I am (obviously) well aware of the need for ‘mens rea’ and also, the ‘actus reus’ of the crime.

The mens rea of this crime, in my opinion, was well established when the homophobic insults were levelled at the sleeping victim. The motive here was homophobia as there was no other. As I said, trial judges are not always correct and will often want to cover their own backs to prevent subsequent appeals due to weak evidence etc.

When Anthony Walker was murdered, before that the murderers had joked about wanting to fight ‘a couple of black lads'; this mens rea of racism was then well established.

In my opinion, the homophobic comments established this again.

The homophobic comments/insults WERE said as stated and admitted by the assailants. Therefore, it WAS homophobic.

Pringle, ‘murder’, is always such a difficult crime to prove due to ‘malice aforethought’. That is why what many people consider to be outright murder, is often downgraded to ‘manslaughter’.

This is because ‘murder’ is not even in a statute and it is still, unbelievably, a common law offence.

Legally it was not classed by the judge ‘obiter’, as being homophobic. This does not change the nature of the crime just because it has not been stated in stone by a judge.

You have no sympathy for Michael do you?

As for what happened to me, it happened around 10 weeks ago, we were in the gay quarter of Liverpool and cut through a street to get to the G-Bar, we were holding hands. The men saw this and began their abuse. They shouted homophobic abuse like ‘dykes’, and did the ever-predictable heterosexual male routine of ‘s*ck our d*cks’. Then they physically attacked us and pushed my girlfriend to the floor. She got up and punched him in the side of the head and he backed off, the other one spat again and as they went to run away my girlfriend kicked the fat one up his arse. The skinny one was extremely annoyed by the fact he’s been whalloped by a girl and took it out on his fat friend by pushing him.

“now a barbarous fly-bitten withered hag-born bum-bailey”

Hmmm, I don’t think so, I’ll bet you a hell of a lot of money I’m in better condition than you :)

Why are you so frustrated, and why do you resort to coming on to a gay website to pick arguments?

A team of sociologists–Edward Laumann, Robert Michael, Stuart Michaels, and John Gagnon–has completed the most thorough study of American sexual behavior ever done.

No they haven’t, you complete and utter moron. Do you even know the slightest thing about social and psychological sciences? I probably shouldn’t have bothered asking that, seeing as how you seem to think that Kinsey’s studies are the most recent or relevant studies in the field of sexuality.

The study to which you refer is not a peer-reviewed study for an academic journal: it is background research for a mainstream, non-academic entertainment book. That means it is worth only as much as anecdotal evidence in a debate. In fact, Kinsey’s studies, despite being half a century old, probably ARE more relevant, seeing as how they were peer-reviewed pieces of academic literature.

Speaking of methodological flaws, one amateur reviewer actually claimed that Laumann et al.’s study was critically panned on its release for its research methods, and that its reviewers were rather aggressive, making the study more of a report on how people respond when they’re forced to answer questions they don’t want to answer. I have no idea how true this is, but it’s certainly food for thought.

I skimmed a couple of your other posts and found them to be similarly riddled with unsubstantiated dogma and misapprehensions. You are very much not worth anybody’s time. Go peddle your misinformation elsewhere, simpleton.

There is a limit to how far one can proceed in this dispute since you stubbornly present tendentious barbarous fly-bitten opinions favourable to the gay cause. Clearly, you put the rules of evidence, its processes and procedures to one side in order to arrive at a contrived opinion. In fact, you obviously gamble with a popular interpretation of events more akin to the ravenous headlines of the Red Tops.

You skirt round the central issue of the case – What was in the mind of James O’Connor who was rightly convicted?

There was no evidence of homophobic intent and that is why Judge Timothy King ruled it was not a gay killing. This is reflected in the sentence of imprisonment of only eleven-and-a-half years.

However, In a remarkable submission you fully acknowledge that ‘legally’ the judge did not classify the killing as a homophobic one. Bearing that admittance in mind, it’s the height of roguish arrogance to state as you do, that you and your small group of adherents know better.

It is clear that the Liverpool Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Network are busy at work exploiting this murder for their own political purposes and are thereby using the Causer family as gullible pawns. Now Stonewall joins them.

This is exemplified by the creation of the homosexual website Gontosoon as part of the struggle “…for true equality”.

It notes, “This is why it’s important for Gay Pride events to continue around the UK and beyond. Why the fight for true equality must continue. Until all of society accepts that being born gay is as natural as being born straight. One day in the future, people will look back at this criminal attack will sheer disbelief”

How dare you suggest that I have no sympathy for the Causer family. This neatly reflects not just a withered imagination but a mischievous malevolent mind. I have every sympathy for them but not for the way you are exploiting and manipulating them for your wicked purposes.

Finally, if you want examples of homophobic murders I can give you some. However, the problem for you is that they are committed by violent, greedy, lustful, hate-filled homosexuals on other homosexuals when sometimes in a ‘loving relationship.’

You don’t. Yo have the compassion of an animal. Yo have shown time and time again here you are barely human, with your nazi era hierarchy of what’s human allowed to have rights and what isn’t. Your “christian compassion” is laughable, and I have seen more christain behaviour in a nest of scorpions.

You, in fact are offensive to the senses.

“committed by violent, greedy, lustful, hate-filled homosexuals on other homosexuals when sometimes in a ‘loving relationship.'”

Evidence please that all homosexuals are “violent, greedy, lustful, hate-filled”? And a conclusion from you, if you will, proving that ALL homosexuals are murders and therefore without right to live?

Sounds more like you were hurt by gays people, and hence this is your “revenge” and ex-gay tirade of no substance.

It was triggered off when Alker saw sexually explicit images on Causer’s mobile phone.

Michael (7 stone, 5’2″ – the judge did not even know this) was dragged from his bed by his ankles by Alker and James O’Connor (a cage fighter, who admitted to murder), as he slept. According to witnesses, Alker first smashed a hardback book over the head of Michael, so hard, the book split in two, leaving a thin red line on Michael’s head, and the book itself. Alker’s words were “‘He’s a little queer, he deserves it’. There followed frenzied kicks and punches that Alker and O’Connor delivered to Michael’s head and upper body, while shouting “You little queer faggot”. Ignoring pleas to calm down, Alker proceeded to use a cigarette lighter to burn hairs on Michael Causer’s leg, and picked up a knife, threatening to rip his body piercings out.

Alker blamed Binsteed and O’Connor for the serious assault. O’Connor had lied when he made the phone call.

What explanation, David Skinner / Pringle, do you have for Alker’s and Connor’s attack? What’s more likely, given past history of miscarriages, people’s attitudes to gay people, and the judge not even being aware of Causer being half Alker’s size, adnthe astonishment at the police to the verdict?

“You skirt round the central issue of the case – What was in the mind of James O’Connor who was rightly convicted?”

I hardly think Lezabella has skirted around that. She provided information about what the attackers said. The killers were found not guilty of homophobic murder, but many people disagree with that conclusion. I was very surprised to read about it myself after reading details of the case. I don’t know anything about the judge in question, but, I certainly don’t believe judges in general to be infallible.

I wouldn’t imagine Michael Causer’s family are being used. I’m sure they wouldn’t let themselves be led along a path they didn’t agree with – nobody would allow themselevs to be used in that way.

+I’m at a loss as to what his point is. Normally its so base that a 4 year old could figure out what stup0oid little message he’s banging out on his V-Tech laptop, but what’s his point here?

Michael was killed why? And making it a non-homophobic crime is what, means all homophobic crimes don’t exist? Talk about the furthest message from Jesus…. has he looked up christian in the dictionary?

David Skinner (‘Pringle’) – a bit disgusting to use what almost all involved with the case, cinsider to be a gross miscarriage of justice to take another cheap shot of people you don’t know or understand.

Again, since you brought this up, what is your explanation for O Connor’s and Alker’s rampage?

You fool. Non-legal people may feel the need to say the full latin of ‘obiter dictum’ or ‘obiter dicta’ to feel clever, however we learn to stop doing that after our A-Levels. We who are actually in the profession or are studying it, use a thing called ‘shorthand’. So please don’t try and be smart.

I think you need to re-read Adrian’s post about the facts of the case. These back up my previous assertions that the motive was homophobia, “He deserves it he’s a little queer” is ample enough to come to this conclusion.

And then read mine regarding ‘malice aforethought’ (and yes it is spelt that way!) informing you why the common law offence of ‘murder’ is so, so difficult to prove.

As for you saying Michael’s death is being ‘used’ somehow. As someone who personally gave money to the cause, and has friends who knew him and his family; I am not ‘using’ it atall. Just as his mother, father and family were not when they marched through Liverpool with ‘Gay And Proud’ T-shirts on. They see it for what it is. Their son was murdered by horrible scally lads just because he was different. Because we in the gay community are also ‘different’, we feel it too. Something you can never understand because you don’t feel anything for Michael and you never will. Clearly your obsessive hatred for homosexuals clouds any sort of human decency you have.

“Again, since you brought this up, what is your explanation for O Connor’s and Alker’s rampage?”

I think you should answer Adrian’s question, I’ve asked you this previously and you ignored it.

While I’m not a huge fan of archaic English, I doubt you are using this expression in the correct context.

I’d suggest an example of “muddy-mottled”, in its proper dictionary definition, would be would be to read your lacklustre and insipid postings.

If you can’t use English, I doubt you Latin is up to much either. In fact, the only think you seem to excel in any way, at least consistently, is your lack of intelligence and education. Its a wonder you able to tie your shoe laces in the morning, or boot up your V-Tech laptop.

I said it wasn’t classed as homophobic BY THE JUDGE. As I’ve stated, judges are not untouchable. Ask anyone in the legal profession and they are dumbfounded as to why the judge came to this conclusion. I know enough lawyers to have heard them conclude with MY opinion. Are they wrong too?

You wont get an answer from this quack, Lezabella. An answer will expose the fragile nature of his twisted and contradictory arguments.

He’s an intellectual coward.

No wonder we’re winning the hearts and minds of normal people and getting so many equal rights year on year, if pringle/upandatem/other-stupid-names are the sum total of what we’re up against… we’ve already won.

Agreed Will, on the other thread enitled “Tory MEP answers back over homophobic comments”, John has just written about how fragile this person(s) Pringle/Balthazar is.

I said something similar a while ago, I think this individual has a real personality disorder. Hence their obsessiveness with something they supposedly hate, their “I’m right” attitude despite our evidence, their ability to only see things in black and white (no grey), and their disturbing penchant for bringing up paedophillia and child abuse all of the time.

I think they have a fragmented personality, perhaps Borderline Personality Disorder, although I’m not sure yet……plus my area is Law not Medicine.

“their disturbing penchant for bringing up paedophilia and child abuse all of the time.”

I couldn’t agree more. As I don’t spend any of my time thinking about paedophilia, one can only assume that this is quite prevalent on his mind, that, and sex between men.

And someone that thinks about these things all the time invariably commits acts on them. Either way, his obsessions are definitely best kept within the walls of an observation cell in a mental institution, at least for the safety of others.

LezaBella, Impressed by your understanding of the Bible, I feel confident that you will be able to answer this legal conundrum . Incidentally I confess to knowing absolutely nothing about the law.

I always thought that crimes of passion were put in the category of manslaughter and are therefore not so serious as pre- meditated murder. But it seems now that manslaughter motivated by phobia, passion, hatred, is a worse crime. Or does this only apply to crimes motivated by homophobia? If the assailant of Michael Causer had, through rational, cold -blooded deduction, without malice, carried out the killing simply because he believed homosexuals should die, would this have been a lesser or worse crime?

Here is another conundrum: if the assailant of Michael had been motivated by homophilia, irrational love, like Nadim Kurrimbukus who set fire to his lover, Charlie Davies, or Oral Seaton who butchered his former lover Winston Dow – Stephenson, would this be a lesser crime?

And what about crimes motivated by cyprinophobia, dysmorphophobia, photophobia, gerontophobia, heterophobia, gingerphobia hobophobia, Judeophobia, peladophobia. Why are not these minority groups given special protection?

In September 2008, Ian Mckellen said,

“I’ve been busy at quite a few schools recently. I went to a wonderful school in Harpenden.
“They invited me to come and give prizes to 13-year-olds in front of the parents and to talk, partly, about being gay. I said that we were all part of a minority group – be it for being short or tall or fat or thin, or having red hair or whatever. I said, ‘Hands up who thinks they are part of a minority group,’ and all the hands went up.

Why didn’t he tell them that some minorities, like homosexuals are more equal than others?

Finally Lezabella, what happens when homosexuals cease to be a tiny minority but grow to become 10, 20 50 or even 60% of the population. Will they loose their protected status?

Pringle and ‘Balthazaar’ are obviously the same as this was asked on the other thread, ‘MEP answers back etc’, so I’ll post the same reply:

“If the assailant of Michael Causer had, through rational, cold -blooded deduction, without malice, carried out the killing simply because he believed homosexuals should die, would this have been a lesser or worse crime?”

So you’re asking whether, if the assailant ‘didn’t know what he was doing was wrong’ i.e it was just the assailants view of homosexuals.

This would then fall under the Mac’ Naughten Rules (spelling is variable as it’s so old) of ‘insanity’. To put the rules very bluntly and simply, they can be used if an assailant either:

A) Didn’t know what they were doing
B) Didn’t know what they were doing was wrong.

This doesn’t apply in the Causer case as the assailants did know what they were doing, they were not in psychosis or anything, and more importantly they knew it was wrong; hence they dragged Michael into the street and lied that other youths had beaten him to cover their tracks. To cover one’s tracks and to lie is a clear indication you knew what you did was wrong.

The only logical motive WAS homophobia due to the attackers stating “He’s a little queer he deserves it”.

So your question is pointless as it simply doesn’t apply here.

Are you trying to defend murderers here because you hate gays so much? Or are you trying to test me? Either way, on both counts you’ve failed.

I think you DO have a personality disorder, seriously.

You’re obsessed with homosexuality aren’t you? Do you think this, or trying to defend murderers of a gay man, is normal behaviour?

You again state:- The only logical motive WAS homophobia due to the ATTACKERS stating “He’s a little queer he deserves it”.

This is definitely not what O’Connor the killer is alleged to have uttered. You are again trying to apportion any mens rea to him because of what others have said. This is not good practice and is at odds with your earlier remark:-

“Legally it was not classed by the judge ‘obiter’, as being homophobic.”

You do not impress in attempting to ascribe personality disorders to those who disagree with you. In fact, under the banner of freedom noted earlier in this thread I outlined several serious medical problams associated with homosexuality.

You really ought to look to your own!

Whatever legal training you have had it is sufficient for you to confirm the judgement of the court. It was NOT a homophobic murder.

No you didn’t. You outlines offensive and wild acquisitions without one shred of proof. Why on earth would gay people having medical conditions (which of course they don’t) make you feel better? What a disturbing idea to have, all the more so because it a lie.

However, I have already outlined that you are more stupid than we are. I provided proof of this by scientific study and observation of your posts.

Pringle, do stop making an idiot of yourself. Constantly misspelling Lezabella’s name makes you look very silly indeed. What have you got against her? Do you dislike women as much as you dislike gay men? Of course, you do. I forgot – the Bible says we’re inferior, right? Of course, it also says slavery’s OK. Would you like to give us your views in that?

While you’re thinking about that, maybe you could read this extract talking about the huge increase in HIV infections in STRAIGHT people:

“The number of heterosexually acquired HIV infections diagnosed in the UK has risen hugely over the last 15 years. In 1999, for the first time, the rate of heterosexually acquired HIV diagnoses overtook the rate of diagnoses in men who have sex with men. The peak was 4,889 in 2004, since when there has been a slight decline. A total of 44,617 cases had been reported by the end of 2008.”

“This is definitely not what O’Connor the killer is alleged to have uttered.”

– It most certainly is what 14-stone Gavin Alker is alleged to have said. O’Connor joined in the frenzy if you look through the case carefully. Causer was half his size, asleep and dragged out of bed and kicked to death.

How do you know the mind of Gavin Alker and O’Connor, to say it was not homophobic murder, DavidSkinner / Pringle?

“Pringle”
In defence for Lizabella
Why are you not at work at 11:10 on a thursday?
Or is your job that dull you cruise gay news sites and their forums?

And why do you feel the need to tell us of our sins and make up illnesses for us?
I believe this urge you have to continue commenting on a gay news site and spout crap is an illness in itself
You’re a disease pringle, you are cured by educating people!