These kinds of cases usually end up being "he said, he said". Without objective evidence or even a witness, it would never hold up in a criminal case. Now in a civil case, the burden of proof is much lower...

B.L.Z. Bub:Lego_Addict: I think they might have misread his name, it's Kevin Clash, not Cash.

They need to go to the police if it's true. It's not about Kevin Clash or Elmo, it's about getting a perv off the street.

Expired statute of limitations?

Jack McCoy it? Ongoing conspiracy to conceal the crime extends the statute of limitations? IANAL, but would that tactic work?

But yeah, without a criminal investigation, there's no way of knowing if these allegations are true or not. Because of the way the laws are written, there doesn't have to be a criminal investigation to file these kinds of lawsuits. California tried closing this loophole after the first round with Michael Jackson, but that just moved these kinds of cases out of state when possible. So, pick whichever evil suits you: an innocent man getting extorted or a pedophile silencing his victims and roaming free; until there's a criminal investigation, both scenarios are equally likely.

We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

I'll care when the state is no longer able, at all, to choose to prosecute someone underage as an adult just because they think the crime warrants it. Either being underage means something or it doesn't. Prosecutors can decide that a 16 or 17 year old who kills someone is adult enough to be prosecuted as an adult but a 17 year old who farks someone isn't? Why?

gshepnyc:We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

gshepnyc:We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

I'll care when the state is no longer able, at all, to choose to prosecute someone underage as an adult just because they think the crime warrants it. Either being underage means something or it doesn't. Prosecutors can decide that a 16 or 17 year old who kills someone is adult enough to be prosecuted as an adult but a 17 year old who farks someone isn't? Why?

I don't know, but you're right that it's really, really stupid. If a 14 year old can commit murder and be tried as an adult, a 14 year old who farks their 17 year old boyfriend is an adult too. No statutory rape, no getting put on a registry list, no having to inform your neighbors when you move.

Coco LaFemme:gshepnyc: We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

I'll care when the state is no longer able, at all, to choose to prosecute someone underage as an adult just because they think the crime warrants it. Either being underage means something or it doesn't. Prosecutors can decide that a 16 or 17 year old who kills someone is adult enough to be prosecuted as an adult but a 17 year old who farks someone isn't? Why?

I don't know, but you're right that it's really, really stupid. If a 14 year old can commit murder and be tried as an adult, a 14 year old who farks their 17 year old boyfriend is an adult too. No statutory rape, no getting put on a registry list, no having to inform your neighbors when you move.

B.L.Z. Bub:Coco LaFemme: gshepnyc: We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

I'll care when the state is no longer able, at all, to choose to prosecute someone underage as an adult just because they think the crime warrants it. Either being underage means something or it doesn't. Prosecutors can decide that a 16 or 17 year old who kills someone is adult enough to be prosecuted as an adult but a 17 year old who farks someone isn't? Why?

I don't know, but you're right that it's really, really stupid. If a 14 year old can commit murder and be tried as an adult, a 14 year old who farks their 17 year old boyfriend is an adult too. No statutory rape, no getting put on a registry list, no having to inform your neighbors when you move.

I see that most Farkers have no problem with statutory rape. Even if the guys in question were trolling for older men its STILL statutory rape. It makes no difference if the sex is gay or straight. consensual or not STATUTORY IS RAPE.

Delawheredad:I see that most Farkers have no problem with statutory rape. Even if the guys in question were trolling for older men its STILL statutory rape. It makes no difference if the sex is gay or straight. consensual or not STATUTORY IS RAPE.

This is what I posted in the last Sandusky thread that got crickets. Reading the posts in here, it's worth posting again:

Mentalpatient87: david_gaithersburg: If only he held a degree in puppetry, then he would be Fark acceptable.

Just stop for two seconds and think about how you're defending a child rapist. Do you really think you have the high ground?

I think it's more along the lines of pointing out a shade of hypocrisy here on Fark, tbh. Yes, there is a difference, but let's not pretend Fark didn't trip over itself to defend the [Elmo puppeteer] guy at first, then to justify it after he came clean.

Carousel Beast:Delawheredad: I see that most Farkers have no problem with statutory rape. Even if the guys in question were trolling for older men its STILL statutory rape. It makes no difference if the sex is gay or straight. consensual or not STATUTORY IS RAPE.

This is what I posted in the last Sandusky thread that got crickets. Reading the posts in here, it's worth posting again:

Mentalpatient87: david_gaithersburg: If only he held a degree in puppetry, then he would be Fark acceptable.

Just stop for two seconds and think about how you're defending a child rapist. Do you really think you have the high ground?

I think it's more along the lines of pointing out a shade of hypocrisy here on Fark, tbh. Yes, there is a difference, but let's not pretend Fark didn't trip over itself to defend the [Elmo puppeteer] guy at first, then to justify it after he came clean.

/Not defending or condemning either one//Ok, condemning Sandusky

Yeah, I can't believe anybody is defending this guy. Statutory rape is still rape. Sandusky's victims were younger, but unwilling? How does that change anything though?

The short answer is it doesn't. Clash and Sandusky both preyed upon minors - indeed, it seems like they both sought them out (you might argue a single victim, but not 4). If the allegations are true, put Clash in prison just like Sandusky.

....and while some argue the "one day illegal, the next legal" nonsense, it is irrelevant. The age is an arbitrary limit set because there needs to be some sort of limit set. The fact that it exists means that people like Clash need to pay heed and stop hooking up with minors; if age isn't an issue, why bother with minors at all? Of course, the reason is simple: For people like Clash, they NEED to have sex with minors. It is part of their sexual nature. If the arbitrary age limit were set another year lower, he'd still be in trouble for hooking up with minors. He's not ignoring the age limit, he's purposely seeking out sex partners who are under age. That is the problem here.

LesserEvil:The short answer is it doesn't. Clash and Sandusky both preyed upon minors - indeed, it seems like they both sought them out (you might argue a single victim, but not 4). If the allegations are true, put Clash in prison just like Sandusky.

If you can't tell the difference between a 16 year-old and a 12 year-old, then you need professional help.

I have issues with the notion of statutory rape, as the law basically says "people under X age are too young to consent". Having been a sexually-active teen, I can tell you that's utter bullshiat. No one ever "pressured" me to do anything I didn't want to do and I was always in complete control.

And as have been mentioned, we're happy to treat 16 year-olds as adults when it suits us as a society (like when we want to execute them). Hell, with parental approval you can still join the military at 16.

Dwight_Yeast:LesserEvil: The short answer is it doesn't. Clash and Sandusky both preyed upon minors - indeed, it seems like they both sought them out (you might argue a single victim, but not 4). If the allegations are true, put Clash in prison just like Sandusky.

If you can't tell the difference between a 16 year-old and a 12 year-old, then you need professional help.

I have issues with the notion of statutory rape, as the law basically says "people under X age are too young to consent". Having been a sexually-active teen, I can tell you that's utter bullshiat. No one ever "pressured" me to do anything I didn't want to do and I was always in complete control.

And as have been mentioned, we're happy to treat 16 year-olds as adults when it suits us as a society (like when we want to execute them). Hell, with parental approval you can still join the military at 16.

As I said, it's an arbitrary age limit, but it is STILL A LIMIT. Nobody made Clash hook up with a minor. He allegedly chose to do that, and he will face the consequences of that.

That said, this is not at all the same as a 19-year old guy screwing his 15-year old girlfriend (or boyfriend, just to show this isn't a sexuality issue). Indeed, many states make special cases in their laws for this particular situation, and most juries will likely clear the "accused" in those cases where the law isn't clear.

Clash was much older and sought out young - UNDERAGE - guys, which is his problem. If it had been one guy, perhaps that might be simply a case of lust blinding him to the other person's age, but this was multiple partners who were legally minors. That indicates a pattern. If, as you say, there isn't much physiological difference between a 16-year old and an 18-year old, why not stick with legal 18-year old partners? I know the reason, even if you don't want to acknowledge it - and it is specific to Clash's psychological make up. Age and that arbitrary "limit" had everything to do with why Clash chose to pursue underage partners.

I'm no prude, but I do think it is tragically sad that we sexualize children so much in today's culture. You can only be a kid ONCE in your life, and once sex enters into things, you can no longer return to the innocence of being a kid. Children should not be in a rush to become adults, and we adults should be in no rush to push them, either.

Some how I just can't see you as a victim if you're hitting up phone lines and chat boards looking for older men to have sex with. It's not like you don't know what you're doing and it's not like someone is forcing themselves on you against your will. After a certain point, statutory is BS. If it can be proven that the kid sought out the sex, (and not "sought out" in the way that people sometimes think 5 yr olds are trying to seduce them) that kid should be treated as knowledgeable and consenting. Now if it comes to a point where the kid doesn't want to follow through or wants to break it off and the on the cusp of retarded and really ought to know better than mess with kids "adult" in this situation tries to force something, then it becomes rape.

Adult is a state of mind and maturity, not an age. Unfortunately, it's too difficult to legislate that. No, the Elmo guy was not being an "adult" when he farked these kids and he should be forced to grow up, but these kids aren't innocent either. But, but, blaming the victim! Well, yeah. Looking for older men to have sex with is not the same as a kid who thinks they're meeting another kid online. 14, 15, 16, 17 =/= Pedophilia, but is just as wrong in a different sort of way. What the hell is wrong with you that you can't form a connection with someone closer your age?

Dwight_Yeast:That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

I remember turning 30 and all of the sudden getting hit on a lot of 18 year old gay guys with daddy issues. I thought after I turned 40 that would die down. Its actually gotten worse.

Clash showed incredibly poor judgement. Its one thing to hook up with some random guy found online but flying men across country who are under the age of consent in NY? Clash deserves to go to jail for being a fark'n idiot. I've gone from being ambivalent to his situation to wanting to see the guy burn.

LesserEvil:As I said, it's an arbitrary age limit, but it is STILL A LIMIT. Nobody made Clash hook up with a minor. He allegedly chose to do that, and he will face the consequences of that.

I have no problem with that. We have a law and there's strong indication that Clash broke it.

But -though we are a society of laws- they are not set in stone. Like I said, what bothers me about the law as it stands is the notion that a 16 year-old can't make their own choices as to who they have sex with if that partner is legally considered an adult (with exceptions; here in PA, age of consent is 16, but if the "adult" is within 4 years of age of their partner, they can't be charged with rape; a 19 year-old with a 15 year-old boy/girlfriend is protected).

LesserEvil:Clash was much older and sought out young - UNDERAGE - guys, which is his problem. If it had been one guy, perhaps that might be simply a case of lust blinding him to the other person's age, but this was multiple partners who were legally minors. That indicates a pattern. If, as you say, there isn't much physiological difference between a 16-year old and an 18-year old, why not stick with legal 18-year old partners? I know the reason, even if you don't want to acknowledge it - and it is specific to Clash's psychological make up. Age and that arbitrary "limit" had everything to do with why Clash chose to pursue underage partners.

I don't know the answers to that, but the problem lies within Clash's mind and not anywhere else. When this whole thing started, it didn't surprise me; if you watch the doc about him, it's pretty clear that he's an emotionally stunted man-child.

LesserEvil:I'm no prude, but I do think it is tragically sad that we sexualize children so much in today's culture. You can only be a kid ONCE in your life, and once sex enters into things, you can no longer return to the innocence of being a kid. Children should not be in a rush to become adults, and we adults should be in no rush to push them, either.

That is a very prudish Victorian Christian notion of the concept of the sanctity of "Childhood", and I know a large portion of our society shares it, but biological reality doesn't bear it out. Left to our own devices, we'd likely engage in sex play quite early, well before puberty, as other primates do.

Another thought: homosexuality -especially male homosexuality- shows up how hypocritical, prudish and arbitrary our sex laws are. They're all written from a heterosexual viewpoint, with a strong eye towards protecting young "innocent" girls (and we all know that females are too emotional and fragile to even make their own decisions) from older, lecherous men who want to despoil them.

When you've got teenage gay males actively chasing after older men (not in this case, but generally), everything goes on its head. Because of the way we view males in our society, it's much harder to argue that the younger partner is being "taken advantage of" (though not in this case, as Clash used his wealth and fame to woo and influence these younger men).

gadian:. Looking for older men to have sex with is not the same as a kid who thinks they're meeting another kid online. 14, 15, 16, 17 =/= Pedophilia, but is just as wrong in a different sort of way. What the hell is wrong with you that you can't form a connection with someone closer your age?

Completely agree. Unlike Sandusky, Clash isn't a pedophile. He's the classic Dirty Old Man With Serious Issues. He shouldn't be employed by Sesame Street anymore. But he isn't some monster, either. At any rate, 16 is legal in many states and throughout Europe. There's even that E! TV show with the Dirty Old Man With Serious Issues and his new 16 year-old bride.

Waldo Pepper:Dwight_Yeast: gshepnyc: We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

it shouldn't be touchy, if this was a 30 something man hooking up with 15/16 yr old girls there would outrage just as it should be for male/male or female/female.

Actually, when a 50 something year old man hooks up with a 16 year old girl, they get their own reality show. Link

Waldo Pepper:eddiesocket: Waldo Pepper: Dwight_Yeast: gshepnyc: We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

it shouldn't be touchy, if this was a 30 something man hooking up with 15/16 yr old girls there would outrage just as it should be for male/male or female/female.

Actually, when a 50 something year old man hooks up with a 16 year old girl, they get their own reality show. Link

amazing how with parental consent making it legal it isn't quite the same issue.

You're saying that if these boys' parents had given permission, everyone would be okay with it? Legal =/= moral. It's exactly the same issue. Except society reacts by saying the gay guy is a disgrace and a pedophile, and the straight guy is a reality star. Funny how that happens.

Dwight_Yeast:gshepnyc: We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

Why? I thought it was common knowledge on gay male boards that underaged gay men seek out older gay men, and older gay men seek out underaged gay men. The number of times a gay man talked about how he was such and such age (usually very underage) and had been screwing a much old man...........and/or actively seeking out older men......

is it touchy because it's okay to talk about within the group, but not outside of the group?

gingerjet:Dwight_Yeast: That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

I remember turning 30 and all of the sudden getting hit on a lot of 18 year old gay guys with daddy issues. I thought after I turned 40 that would die down. Its actually gotten worse.

Clash showed incredibly poor judgement. Its one thing to hook up with some random guy found online but flying men across country who are under the age of consent in NY? Clash deserves to go to jail for being a fark'n idiot. I've gone from being ambivalent to his situation to wanting to see the guy burn.

18 year olds? where's the 'too old' .gif? I understand using the legal age of consent instead of.......... what usually happens.

/teen and pre-teen girls are whores, too, so it's not that//gotta stay strong, if one is an adult///many adults are strong, it's the weak ones who fk it up for everyone else

ExperianScaresCthulhu:Dwight_Yeast: gshepnyc: We aren't talking about little kids. This is no Sandusky situation, or even what Michael Jackson was accused of. I have a hard time caring.

That's the read subtext of this that no one wants to talk about: there are teenage (underage) gay men who want to/like having sex with much older men and (no surprise) there are older men happy to accommodate them. A number of the accusers have attempted to frame their stories as if Clash "groomed" them, but all ignore that he men them on adult message boards and other places where the only thing the teens could have been doing there was trolling for older men.

This is an exceedingly touchy subject in the gay community, not helped by the Religious RIght constantly claiming that all gay men are pedophiles.

Why? I thought it was common knowledge on gay male boards that underaged gay men seek out older gay men, and older gay men seek out underaged gay men. The number of times a gay man talked about how he was such and such age (usually very underage) and had been screwing a much old man...........and/or actively seeking out older men......

is it touchy because it's okay to talk about within the group, but not outside of the group?

It's touchy because people like you think gay sex chatrooms are representative of the average gay person.

/Gay and 37. Most of my friends are my own age. None of us hook up with children, nor do I know anyone who hooks up with children, or even boys in their early 20's, for that matter.

I wonder if he talked in the Elmo voice when they had sex? "Suck Elmo's dick! Elmo gonna cum! Frak Elmo's ass!" Also, he isn't a pedophile since these aren't per-pubescent children. He's an ephebophile which means he's attracted to teenagers.

ParagonComplex:I wonder if he talked in the Elmo voice when they had sex? "Suck Elmo's dick! Elmo gonna cum! Frak Elmo's ass!" Also, he isn't a pedophile since these aren't per-pubescent children. He's an ephebophile which means he's attracted to teenagers.

You're saying that if these boys' parents had given permission, everyone would be okay with it? Legal =/= moral. It's exactly the same issue. Except society reacts by saying the gay guy is a disgrace and a pedophile, and the straight guy is a reality star. Funny how that happens.

Sorry dude but if you are an adult and you make your money on a kids program you better not be farking kids of either sex. Spin it into homophobia all you want but if he were nailing underage girls it would be as bad if not worse.

You're saying that if these boys' parents had given permission, everyone would be okay with it? Legal =/= moral. It's exactly the same issue. Except society reacts by saying the gay guy is a disgrace and a pedophile, and the straight guy is a reality star. Funny how that happens.

Sorry dude but if you are an adult and you make your money on a kids program you better not be farking kids of either sex. Spin it into homophobia all you want but if he were nailing underage girls it would be as bad if not worse.

Don't misunderstand, I'm definitely not defending Clash. His behavior was gross and wrong and he deserves to be fired. I'm just pointing out that when a straight guy acts this way, it's just about him, and when a gay guy acts this way, it's more about how "those people" are in general.