Question about skills and Weapons

I know this is an Alpha, and there is a lot of unknown, but with ARPGs, a lot of the game lives or dies by its customization of character play style. Path of Exile has the very large passive web on leveling, and skills being bound to weapons. However, they allow you to customize how that skill works through supports, and their passive web allows further customization through the nodes and key stones.

It looks like this game is taking a similar gear-dependent approach as say, Path of Exile or Guild Wars 2. However, a concern/question I have, is just how far can we customize the skills provided by the armor/weapons? Or will there be variations of skills on weapons, so not all Heavy Bolters have the (Kind of ineffective I have found) AoE or the backpedaling shot. Or, will there be a way to make these skills feel more unique to the character? Because, at the moment there is really no difference between the three types of Crusader Inquisitor. You could go melee heavy, and if you found it/bought it, run the armor that drops the tarantula turret, rather than jump packing into a cluster of mobs, since you have other skills that let you jump. Or you can equip bolt pistol/whatever else with the cyclone missile launcher armor despite having started as the heavy weapons archetype.

At the moment, skills wise, it feels like Neocore is taking the ideas of Guild Wars 2, and Path of Exile, but only going part way, without really committing to actually following what made those systems work in those games.

Here's the thing, there actually aren't that many weapons an Inquisitor would conceivably actually use that are not made by the Imperium of Man. And there aren't that many weapons that are actually -made- by the Imperium of Man.

There's nothing wrong with going weapon focused, ala Path of Exile/Guild Wars 2. However, both of those do things that this game does not (yet) Path of Exile has support gems, that change how a skill functions, so while three people might use one skill through the support gems, it can function differently for each of them, while something like Flameblast drops an AoE, some people might make it have a smaller AoE for more damage, while others might have it channel faster, ect.

Guild Wars 2, while multiple classes could wield the same weapon, they couldn't use the weapon in the same way. And for dual wielding, the weapon in main hand/off hand mattered.

As for the Heavy Bolter or Bolter having different skills, it's actually not as different as you seem to think. The primary/secondary make sense being set, but there are multiple types of ammunition that are used in the 40k universe, dependent on what you are running into. Hellfire ammunition is not the default or even the most common secondary ammunition in the 40k universe. LIkewise, a Lasrifle that might be more powerful/have other skills that is a "Hot-Shot" Lasrifle.

It's my opinion, but passives that everyone has access to, that are the same for everyone, with weapons that give everyone the exact same skills, and armors that give everyone the same skills, does not work. Because in Warhammer not every Inquisitor follows the same thought process, and has the same skill training. And not every Inquisitor has the same tactics. And at the moment talents don't do any form of customization, a % bonus to DoTs, or damage if your suppression rating is green, or health regen for not being suppressed, and the like, does not actually inspire a wide range of game play.

Regarding space marines having different skills: TT Chapter Tactics drastically begs to differ with the idea that the Marines all behave in the same way. The fact that Salamanders use Flamers more than anything else, and their Chapter's ideology being based around fire, is outside of the norm of the "Generic" space marine, of which the Ultramarine is the standard. The idea that every space marine has the same skill set and no other is actually outside the norm for 40k. The same is said of the three main branches of the Inquisition, or the 7 branches of the Ordo Assasinum, or the various Psyker disciplines.

The idea of skills being tied to weapons/armor works. But only if there is more variation than currently exists, without breaking lore and having an Inquisitor or Assassin or Psyker running around with Chaos/Dark Eldar/Eldar/Ork/Tau/Necron tech.

The Imperium of Man has a huge selection of weapons, picking up any 30k codex has a myriad of weapons Ive not heard of in 40k. Also half the inquistors and thier warbands are walking around with xeno tech, even daemonblades. It depends if the Inquisitor is a puritan or not will determine how much (or little) xeno tech they use.

Pick up the Codex: Inquisition or Imperial Agents to see the variety of weapons the Inquisitors use to purge the enemies of man. Using the Xenos' weapon against them is a great pleasure for some, while others would gladly assassinate those who use such tech.

I'd also like to mention that this game was advertised as a "tactical ARPG" but all the videos ive seen have been people shooting at things as fast as they can. Theres no difference if the enemy is holding a plasma, flamer or chainsword. If it moves, click in their general direction until it stops moving.

If you have a bolter to mow down hordes of enemies with ease then you should have trouble taking down a dreadnought. A bolter cannot penetrate a dread anyway so you need to look for alternatives. Taunt the thing until it gets near explosive barrels, trick the thing into charging you off a cliff or even dropping something bigger on top of it. A tactical ARPG should require some tactics.

Ive not played it myself just yet but im not optimistic. Looks like any other ARPG with a 40k logo slapped on it. Like everything else related to 40k, its just a rip off of something else. Nothing new to see here. Sorely dissapointed.

i've had an diea i'd lke to run by you, if you like it then perhaps i'll publish it as a video / article talk through with full explanation. Perhaps DM me on discord (same name no space) and we can discuss.

Throwing my two cents here, Agree with majority of things , and the main point from myself as has been emphasized is the 40k name being put on this: Its a double edge sword ultimately, by itself it automatically gathers interest from the fans which is great but at the same time the expectation of what should be delivered is much higher and the response from the player base if things are done poorly can be very harsh. @Westonard you mention a list of games that I Completely agree with ( I do think total war is a decent game however and CA know that as long as they can keep the content rolling its a good product for them )

If the devs want to take anything from this, I would ask to not rush the game. Playerbases are more forgiving when you say we need to delay a week/month etc then releaseing early and having a less than full experience. If the launch is great you will be able to maintain the initial influx of new players.

In regards of weapons and skills, personally I would prefer more customizability. In terms of the skill system I would like to see that expanded some more, Im taking there will be a level cap so you will have to choose what to spec in but being able to offer choices as well as potential drawbacks ( not in the neg % sense, but rather if you choose this skill it blocks a different skill )With weapons being customizable and changing different parts, magazine, scope, grip, blade whatever that is great I like that idea as it means more loot drops, more crafting opportunities, the whole idea of do i recycle the item to get the mod back or destroy the mod to get the slot back is always good.

One thing was mentioned by Airsick, the subclass. Yes I would like to see more of that. I may be mistaken ( apologies of so ) but there are three main Inquisiton branches? Xenos, Hereticus and Malleus? I seem to recall that as its the three books for Eisenhorn. Being able to choose one of these three branches/disciplines should be allow access to more skills and allow focus on specific targets. Going Xenos? Great! Woe to any Dark Eldar you meet. The idea of choosing factions or sides and gaining power, items abilities would allow the expansion of customization and still stick to the lore. Further specific missions can be given by that faction which can group people together from that same group ( think something along the lines of warframe with the syndicate system )

I am kind of afraid you are right, that this is meant to appeal to Warhammer 40k fans, more than ARPG fans with the current design, and if customization and the like don't improve. And, if that is the case, then I can only see this game failing. It goes back to what I said before, 40k fans are getting steadily more scrutinizing of the 40k and Fantasy titles, because of the influx of bad games that have come out.

Since Dawn of War you have had Armageddon and Sanctus Reach by Slitherine, both of which are poorly dated, and underwhelming, the Space Hulk games, all of which were underwhelming, two of which were the same game just rereleased for a second cash grab. Deathwing was bad. Deathwatch was a poor port to PC, Assault on Tallarn is a dated game and bad in terms of player friendlyness, to say nothing of balance. The Horus Heresy Talisman game was poorly done. Don't get me started on the crap show that is Eternal Crusade.

Regicide seems to be hit or miss, Total Warhammer is hit or miss but the fans of the Total War franchise seem to like it most of the way, with the exception of the crapload of DLC that is a third of the price. Vermintide was fun but it's buggy and a lot of the support isn't coming out, the loot was poorly implemented, and ultimately it feels like Left 4 Dead, rather than something unique. Mordheim was promising, but kind of fell through.

The only truly outstanding 40k games are Dawn of War/2 and Space Marine, before Relic went under, and Battlefleet Gothic. When you have a very large selection of bad games, if Neocore wants to recover from the debacle of the Van Helsing Final Cut botched releases, just releasing a very bland game set in an over saturated with bad games setting is a poor way to do it.

Because let's be honest here, a very boring shooting gallery set in 40k is a bad game. It isn't remotely anything related to the Inquisition, because there is nothing you are doing that is tied to the Inquisition in lore. Killing chaos cultists and daemons is closer to what Space Marines or the Imperial Guard do. Slapping a reputation system on there doesn't change that. A story campaign won't change that if the game play itself is weak.

And a game that is marketed as a 40k ARPG that isn't an ARPG and is a blatant cash grab on an oversaturated franchise won't sell well, either at release, due to the amount of returns, or from word of mouth of the people who bought in on the Alpha/Beta and tell their friends who are on the fence not to waste their money.

Just as a point of clarification - The "subclasses" which I originally thought them to be, are only initial loadouts and as far as i'm aware have no bearing as to euipment and / or skills / actives / passives etc. I could be wrong but having asked on the discord the unanimous response was that it was just a case of choosing your initial weapons. I think we would both agree here that some more tangible differences between sub classes would be appropriate. (Got a few ideas i'm going to put together on a sheet)

Re your mention of the varying units, it seems to be that the chapter differences you've described simply come down to having different equipment and playing the game slightly differently, rather than having unique abilities which make those individual space marines different (aside from the blood angels) - This is where I think neocore is going to struggle to include more customisation re abilities, because I just don't think there is enough in the lore to back it up. Having slept on the matter though, i'm in more agreement with you that some customisation of ones specific weapon abilities should be something to invest into.

Options seem to be (i'm going to start a threat on this once i've done a more comprehensive brainstorm) including one of the following options

2 - Passives which are specific to damage types and have a noticable effect on ones strategy within combat

3 - Subclass choices, chapter options (not sure if inq can be a member of factions?) which provide different bonuses.

4 - Lots and lots of different "choices" the character can make that might further influence their chances of being unique, such as the upcoming morality level =good/evil dictating what weapons you have available.

The issue is at the end of the day that the combat boils down to ... "look some enemies" - Stand and shoot - Repeat. If neocore can find a way to make the combat system into a system, not just a shooting range then I think we will have a better idea as to what the inquisitors need to become unique.

Returning to last night's thoughts though, i'm still fairly confident that this game isn't intended to appeal as much to the ARPG fans as to the Warhammer fans, so provided the game is engaging enough we might well never need to really have the RPG element fully explored? - Who knows.

Well, the Salamanders are the only ones who use a specific type of Flamer, if I recall correctly, the Blood Angels, while they are a bit more melee focused, have the Red Rage rule, White Scars are very mobile on speeder bikes, Raven Guard are more stealthy, and their tactics focus on suppressed weapons and jump packs.

While they are all BS 4, for example, and might all use the Bolter, the different ways they play makes them feel unique. At the moment that doesn't exist in this game, because I can start as the heavy weapons archetype, run one mission, sell everything, and equip melee armor and weapons, and you would never know that I was ever the heavy weapons archetype at start. That's part of what I think needs to be tweaked, at least a bit, and not by restricting weapons and armor, but by making that weapon or armor behave slightly differently for a character who is built around that specialization.

I can agree that too much customization is a bad thing, especially if most of the choices are "traps" or sub-optimal, which is what PoE runs into. I do think that all heavy bolters having the same two basic skills makes sense, since that is how the weapon actually functions. I just think that maybe changing from the Hellfire to something else for a different effect with Ammunition, or a way to trade off the backing up would be a nice way to add some variety to the weapon without changing how it works, or a hot shot back pack for the las rifle, and so on.

Weapon Augments/Ammunition would probably be a way to handle that, which would allow for some customization, without everything being the same. I agree with you, that the idea works, but at the current set up, it isn't fleshed out, and it just comes up lacking, compared to two other games that do it better, which can hurt this game's success.

People are becoming more jaded and wary of 40k games, given the influx of very bad games in the past 4 or 5 years. Simply being set in the 40k Universe isn't enough to be successful, especially since there are already detractors of this game who feel it isn't appropriate for an Inquisitor theme. Stale/limited character customization with bland passives and everyone doing the same thing, will guarantee this game's death before it can find its footing at launch.

"Regarding space marines having different skills: TT Chapter Tactics drastically begs to differ with the idea that the Marines all behave in the same way. The fact that Salamanders use Flamers more than anything else, and their Chapter's ideology being based around fire, is outside of the norm of the "Generic" space marine, of which the Ultramarine is the standard. The idea that every space marine has the same skill set and no other is actually outside the norm for 40k. The same is said of the three main branches of the Inquisition, or the 7 branches of the Ordo Assasinum, or the various Psyker disciplines. "

- My meaning is that a space marine, be it with green armor, red armor, a flamer, or a bolter will still have the ability to walk, shoot, eat and poop. That's more or less it. Granted the odd chapter has specific rules but I feel like the differences you describe would account for a player choosing different equipment and playing slightly differently, rather than having a completely unique skill set. That being said i'm not completely down with the space marine lore or even the most recent rulebook. Perhaps i'm just being stubborn? - Just the traditional sense of skills and complete customization doesn't feel needed for me in this game. I'm starting to wonder if this is because i've had endless hours of fun in vermintide with friends using only 4 abilities, perhaps it's drastically lowered my standards :)

Keep making the good points. I think if you have some suggestions as to systems the devs could use, then they would eagerly listen.

Re weapon variety I feel that there is a decent variation thus far already... Las, auto, flamer, melter, plasma, bolter, auto, shotgun etc and that's not including further weapons to be released and not to mention the various pistol / rifle and heavy options. Granted many do share some skill sets and are quite similar.

My reasoning for not wanting this game to pursue something as complex as POE is I think it's overkill in terms of complexity and the POE crowed are quite literally the more hardcore of the ARPG genre. That's not to say some further customisation isn't a healthy thing though. Just if there were any form of gem system I think it would need to be something as you suggest, like a differing ammunition type... or some armor equipment that has tangible effects on the skills.

Alternatively the "ammunition" choice could be within the passive trees so that if invested into certain "ability types" could gain from differing effects, such as adding slows, freezes, changing rate of fire, accuracy etc. Perhaps that would satisfy? - from whati've seenof the passive skill tree thus far it does look a little flat.

tldr - i'd also like some more customisation but I think aiming for POE level of customization is overkill and going to put off more players than it would attract. Consider for eg this is going to be marketed towards the console, where POE would fall flat on it's face. (imho)

Here's the thing, there actually aren't that many weapons an Inquisitor would conceivably actually use that are not made by the Imperium of Man. And there aren't that many weapons that are actually -made- by the Imperium of Man.

There's nothing wrong with going weapon focused, ala Path of Exile/Guild Wars 2. However, both of those do things that this game does not (yet) Path of Exile has support gems, that change how a skill functions, so while three people might use one skill through the support gems, it can function differently for each of them, while something like Flameblast drops an AoE, some people might make it have a smaller AoE for more damage, while others might have it channel faster, ect.

Guild Wars 2, while multiple classes could wield the same weapon, they couldn't use the weapon in the same way. And for dual wielding, the weapon in main hand/off hand mattered.

As for the Heavy Bolter or Bolter having different skills, it's actually not as different as you seem to think. The primary/secondary make sense being set, but there are multiple types of ammunition that are used in the 40k universe, dependent on what you are running into. Hellfire ammunition is not the default or even the most common secondary ammunition in the 40k universe. LIkewise, a Lasrifle that might be more powerful/have other skills that is a "Hot-Shot" Lasrifle.

It's my opinion, but passives that everyone has access to, that are the same for everyone, with weapons that give everyone the exact same skills, and armors that give everyone the same skills, does not work. Because in Warhammer not every Inquisitor follows the same thought process, and has the same skill training. And not every Inquisitor has the same tactics. And at the moment talents don't do any form of customization, a % bonus to DoTs, or damage if your suppression rating is green, or health regen for not being suppressed, and the like, does not actually inspire a wide range of game play.

Regarding space marines having different skills: TT Chapter Tactics drastically begs to differ with the idea that the Marines all behave in the same way. The fact that Salamanders use Flamers more than anything else, and their Chapter's ideology being based around fire, is outside of the norm of the "Generic" space marine, of which the Ultramarine is the standard. The idea that every space marine has the same skill set and no other is actually outside the norm for 40k. The same is said of the three main branches of the Inquisition, or the 7 branches of the Ordo Assasinum, or the various Psyker disciplines.

The idea of skills being tied to weapons/armor works. But only if there is more variation than currently exists, without breaking lore and having an Inquisitor or Assassin or Psyker running around with Chaos/Dark Eldar/Eldar/Ork/Tau/Necron tech.

The problem with what you are asking for is for every heavy bolter to be different, which in the war hammer universe I just can't see working.... The same applies for having different skills as a space marine, just the concept of it is so far from anything the W40k universe is used to.

What you are asking for / customisation wise is perhaps going to be satisfied via the talent trees where you can boost certain stats?

At the end of the day with teh quantity of weapons I think it'll be a case of finding a weapon you do like and using that, rahter than wanting to change the templates that are there, they should each in theory be balanced and none will be perfect:)