Senator INOUYE. As you know, Senator Huddleston and his subcommittee are
deeply involved in the drafting of charters and guidelines for the intelligence community.
We will be meeting with the President tomorrow. Our concern is, I think, a basic one. Can
anything like this occur again?

Admiral TURNER. I think it would be very, very unlikely, first, because
we are all much more conscious of these issues than we were back in the fifties, second,
because we have such thorough oversight procedures. I cannot imagine that this kind of
activity could take place today without some member of the CIA itself bypassing me, if I
were authorizing this, and writing to the Intelligence Oversight Board, and blowing the
whistle on this kind of activity.

I am also doing my very best, sir, to encourage an openness with myself and a free
communication in the Agency, so that I am the one who finds these things if they should
happen. The fact is that we must keep you and your committee and now the new committee in
the House informed of our sensitive activities. I think all of these add up to a degree of
scrutiny such that this kind of extensive and flagrant activity could not happen today
without it coming to the attention of the proper authorities to stop it.

Senator INOUYE. A sad aspect of the MKULTRA project was that it naturally
involved the people who unwittingly or wittingly got involved in experimentation. I would
appreciate it if you would report back to this committee in 3 months on what the Agency
has done to notify these individuals and these institutions, and furthermore, to notify us
as to what steps have been taken to identify victims, and if identified, what you have
done to assist them, monetarily or otherwise.

projects will be completely deniable; (c) Full professional cover will
be provided for up to three biochemical employees of the Chemical Division; (d) Human
patients and volunteers for experimental use will be available under controlled clinical
conditions with the full supervision of

and there is a blank, something has been deleted.

It seems pretty clear to me what they intended to do in that particular wing. Doesn't it
to you? Why would you go to such elaborate preparations, to buy part of the wing, bring
three of your own personnel there, give them a cover, and give them access to patients?
Why would you go to such trouble and expense to arrange, all that, if you weren't planning
to experiment on people in the hospital?

Admiral TURNER. I agree with you 100 percent, sir. Those were clearly the
intentions. I have no evidence that it was carried out in that way. I am not trying to be
defensive, Senator. I am only trying to be absolutely precise here.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Well, then, as to the nature of what was done there,
the last paragraph on the same page of the document says, "The facilities of the
hospital and the ability to conduct controlled experimentations under safe clinical
conditions using materials with which any agency connection must be completely deniable
will augment and complement other programs recently taken over by TSS, such as," and
then there's another deletion.

Now, the words following "such as" have been deleted. That is still classified,
or at least it was removed when this document was sanitized and released. It seems to be
that whatever was deleted right there would give you a pretty good clue as to what they
were doing, since it says that the activities would "augment and complement other
programs" undertaken by TSS. So, I have trouble understanding why you don't know what
was contemplated. Just the fact that similar programs are referred to in the document,
though what they are is still deleted, should enable you to check it out.

You could look at what went on in the similar programs mentioned following the "such
as" in the classified version of this document.

Admiral TURNER. Senator, I have not said that we don't know what was
contemplated being done there. We do not know what was done there.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Why did you delete that reference? Why is that still
classified, that particular project of whatever it is?

Admiral TURNER. I don't know this particular case. We will get you the
exact answer to that one and inform you about it, but it is quite probable that that other
case is unrelated to this in the -- well, not unrelated, but that that was a project that
still deserves to be classified.

Construction of the Gorman Annex was begun in 1957 and the Annex was
dedicated in March 1959. Of the several MKULTRA projects conducted at Georgetown only one
involving human testing covered a time span subsequent to March 1959. Subproject 45 ran
from 1955 to 1963, thus it is possible that the final four years 1959-1963) of the
subproject could have been spent in the Gorman Annex. However, there is no reference to
the Gorman Annex or a "new Annex" in Subproject 45 papers, neither is there any
mention of the subproject moving to a new location in 1959 or later years.

Authorization to contribute CIA funds toward construction of the Gorman Annex is contained
in Subproject 35 of MKULTRA. Recently discovered material indicated that Dr. Geschickter
continued his research for sleep- and amnesia-producing drugs under Project MKSEARCH
through July 1967 at Georgetown University Hospital. But it is impossible to determine if
the facilities of the Gorman Annex were involved.

Now my next question was: Is there any indication, Admiral, that projects in that
particular center involved experimentation on terminally ill cancer patients?

Admiral TURNER. I missed the first part of your question, sir. I am very
sorry.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Do you have any indication that some experiment in the
facility used terminally ill cancer patients as subjects? You do acknowledge in your
statement and it is clear from other documents that these kinds of experiments were at
some point being done somewhere. My question is, is there any indication that cancer
patients or terminally ill patients were experimented with in this wing?

Admiral TURNER. Yes, it does appear there is a connection here, sir.

Senator SCHWEIKER. The other question I had relates to the development of
something which has been called the perfect concussion. A series of experiments toward
that end were described in the CIA documents. I wonder if you would just tell us what your
understanding of perfect concussion is.

Admiral TURNER. Is that in my testimony, sir, or in some other document?

Senator SCHWEIKER. Subproject 54, MKULTRA, which involved examination of
techniques to cause brain concussions and amnesia by using weapons or sound waves to
strike individuals without giving and without leaving any clear physical marks. Someone
dubbed it "perfect concussion" -- maybe that was poetic license on the part of
our staff rather than your poets over there. I wonder if you could just tell us what brain
concussion experiments were about?

Admiral TURNER. This project, No. 54, was canceled, and never carried
out.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Well, I do believe the first year of the project in
1955 was carried out by the Office of Naval Research, according to the information that
you supplied us. The CIA seems to have been participating in some way at that point,
because the records go on to say that the experimenter at ONR found out about CIA's role,
discovered that it was a cover, and then the project was transferred to MKULTRA in 1956.
Again, this is all from the backup material you have given us. So, it was canceled at some
time. I am not disagreeing

Mr. Laubinger corrected his testimony regarding Subproject 54 during
the September 21, 1977 hearings before the Subcommittee on Health and Scientific Research
of the Human Resources Committee. The relevant portion is reproduced below:

Mr. LAUBINGER. On project 54, it has got a rather sensational proposal in
there, in terms of the work that they propose to do, and you asked about the proposal and
I said, in fact, it was never funded under MKULTRA. Now, I overlooked -- at least, my
memory did not serve me correctly when I went through that file folder to see one
memorandum dated January 10, 1956, which makes it quite clear, as a matter of fact, that
that proposal was based on prior work that was funded by the Agency.

Senator SCHWEIKER. By what?

Mr. LAUBINGER. By the CIA. So, that information was in their file folder.
It did not happen to be in my head when I testified.

Senator SCHWEIKER. I think I might have read you that, and that is why I
argued at the time with you, because I think I had in front of me, as I recall, some
indication that it was funded there. I did read that to you. So, you did supply it to us;
there is no argument about that information.

Mr. LAUBINGER. Perhaps I am sort of headstrong, myself, and in my own
view, I am reading under the ULTRA project, that if it had been funded under ULTRA, it
would have had a project number and identified as such. The thing that threw me was that
it was funded, apparently, outside of any MKULTRA activity and it was under the normal
contracting process, so that it was not included in MKULTRA as any work done under that
funding umbrella.

The file folder that you have and I have, right here, makes it quite clear, however, that
a year's work was done through navy funding -- a navy funding mechanism -- on which the
proposal was based that ultimately came into the MKULTRA program. That second proposal was
never funded. So, there was conflict and I, personally, I think, introduced a little bit
of confusion in that in my testimony.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Well, do you agree or not agree with DOD's statement
here that even though the initial funding was navy, it was really I conduit for the CIA?

Mr. LAUBINGER. I think that is correct.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Yes; I would appreciate that. I would like to know how
it went from ONR to CIA after a year. Somebody made a decision to make that transfer, and
to make this an MKULTRA subject. There had to be some sort of review that led to a
decision to continue that kind of concussion -- total blackout, maximum amnesia, and
whatever else it was you were interested in -- study and testing.

Mr. LAUBINGER. Senator, if I may try to say a few words on that, the
files that were available to us for inspection, which are limited, indicated that there
was a project being carried on by the Navy having to do with the, effects of brain
concussion. The CIA developed an interest in that, and considered funding it, but actually
never did, and as the admiral testified, the MKULTRA is merely a funding mechanism, a
place they go for money to do such things, but there is no evidence that I know of that
that project was ever funded.

Following is the technical progress made under the current [deleted]
contract: (a) Specializing instrumentation and numerous testing techniques have been
developed to obtain the desired dynamic data; (b) considerable data has now been obtained
supporting the resonance-cavilation theory of brain concussion; and (c) preliminary
acceleration threshold data has been obtained for a fluid-filled glass simulated skull.

It goes on to talk about a blast range and a 2,500-square-foot laboratory. The document
notes that "Three blast test series have been run to date." It describes a
special blackjack device, "a pancake-type blackjack giving a high peak impact force
with a low unit surface pressure."

I agree the records are inconclusive as to the results of this work, but it certainly
seems that some testing was done.

Mr. LAUBINGER. Senator, you are putting us in the same position I think
you were stating that you were in earlier referring to documents not before us, but I
believe you are quoting from a proposal that someone sent to the Agency to fund this work,
and he is referring to past work. The past work would have encompassed a lot of things
like that, but CIA was not involved with that.

Senator SCHWEIKER. What do you mean, Admiral, on page 6 of your testimony
when you mention projects using magician's art? How do magicians get into the spook
business?

Admiral TURNER. I have interpreted this as to how to slip the mickey into
the finn, but I would like to ask my advisers here to comment.

Mr. BRODY. I think that is essentially it, Senator. It is surreptitious
administration of material to someone, deceptive practices, how to distract someone's
attention while you are doing something else, as I understand it. It was also some type of
a covert communication project involved with the study of how magicians and their
assistants perhaps communicate information to one another without having other people know
it. This is the type of thing that was involved, sir.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator INOUYE. Senator Huddleston?

Senator HUDDLESTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Admiral, in your checking these newly discovered documents and interviewing members of the
CIA staff, did you find information that would confirm the contention described by the
reporters for the New York Times that this type of experimentation was begun out of a fear
that the Agency that foreign powers might have drugs which would allow them to alter the
behavior of American citizens or agents or members of the Armed Forces who were taken into
custody, and which would have resulted in false confessions and the like? Is my question
clear?

Admiral TURNER. Yes, sir. I haven't personally read the documentation on
that. In my discussions with the people who are well informed in this area at the Agency,
I am told that that is the case.

Senator HUDDLESTON. Was there any evidence or any indication that there
were other motives that the Agency might also be looking for drugs that could be applied
for other purposes, such as debilitating an individual or even killing another person? Was
this part of this kind of experimentation?

We maintain no files of up-to-date information on the testing of drugs
in foreign countries. Some years ago we occasionally would review foreign research on
antibiotics and pharmaceuticals in connection with public health and civil defense
assessments. For a few years beginning in 1949 we assessed foreign research on LSD under
Project ARTICHOKE because of concern that such drugs might be employed against Agency and
other U.S. personnel. Information relative to this work has already been provided to
relevant Committees. In this early work we also occasionally looked at foreign human
experimentation; we long ago eliminated our holdings on this subject and no collection
requirements are any longer served. As consumer interest in this area has dropped off and
higher priority areas need attention, we have virtually no present coverage with the
possible exception of an occasional scanning of the literature for a specific program. To
the best of our knowledge no other unit in the Intelligence Community is tracking this
subject now.