Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

So, we are about 5-6 months out from the season.

Here's a few of my thoughts. Please do chime in.

1.) Loyola Academy.
Sure. The Ramblers lost plenty of good weapons in Tommy Sullivan (M), Dan O'Malley (M), Dylan Harris (D), Malcolm Hirsch (D), Kevin Steger (G), Kevin Gleason (A), Tim O'Connor (A), John Nigh (A), Dylan Brennan (M), Scott Suhey (M), Nick Wright (LSM) and Chris Martin (G).
But, all is not lost for LA. Rob Snyder has built the program into the best in Illinois (at current writing) and plenty of other young (er) talent waits in the wings.
Everyone knows Mike Schiappa ("D" guy going to Bucknell...All-American in ILL last year) and Charlie Schatz ("Face-off" to UMASS) but the Ramblers will unveil a pair of juniors who have been waiting in the wings. Jack Penn (A) is the quarterback on the football team and Cal Callahan was one of many star players on the True Lacrosse 2014 State team. Fellow juniors Axel Lifvendahl (hockey star who wrecks kids), Patrick McGuire and Danny Buckley are other juniors who should see time this year.
The Senior class is loaded not just with Schatz and Schiappa but watch out for Sean Dolan, Ryan Ford, Ryan Seymour and Charlie Gamber.
The big questions for Loyola this year:
- How will Alex Armstrong do in goal? He is yet to have any real varsity experience and their is a lot of pressure on the senior without a capable backup.
- Will Schatz and Joseph Uhland continue to dominate the face-off "X"?
- Can Loyola find a capable 3rd attackman to go along with Penn and Callahan?
- Will McGuire, Buckley, Seymour and Conor Adler provide enough help at close defense for Schiappa?
- Will Declan Harris (brother of 2-time All-American Dylan) be ready to go at LSM?

2.) St. Viator
Two year ago, the Lions made the Final 4. Last year, they were the #3 seed.
St. Viator returns their entire attack unit with Trunk, O'Malley and Lonergan on top of a host of midfielders. Defensively, Viator should really benefit from the transfer of Billy Spignola (Montini Catholic) on top of expected progression from Andrew Romano, Kyle Robinson and Jake Wosick.
Watch for youngsters Tommy Danner (A/M) and Colin Rustay (LSM/D) to really take the next step.
The Lions should go as far as Trunk and O'Malley can take them. It isn't as if Viator is coming out of nowhere... Last year they beat New Trier, beat Libertyville, lost in a one-goal game to state runner-up Lake Forest but were hammered by Loyola Academy when head coach Bill Sanford wasn't present at the game (personal matter). If there is a time to unseat Loyola Academy, look for the Lions---with a new coaching acquisition in Sam Story (True Lacrosse '14 head coach)--- to be right in the thick of it.

3.) Libertyville
Fact: Cole Blazer is hands-down the best goalie in Illinois. The anchor of the True '14 team, Blazer put on a show this summer (evidence found here: Cole Blazer Highlight Reel . on top of having Blazer in cage, the Wildcats also have Kevin Verkler, a Division-1 recruit to Mt. St. Mary's. Verkler will be arguably the best on-ball defender in Illinois this year (with Schiappa from Loyola) from day one.
Of Libertyville's seven losses last season, four of them were 1-goal games. The Wildcats are that close to getting over the hump and into the spotlight.
But, questions will continue to persist for Libertyville.
- Can they get more scoring? The Wildcats scored only 21 goals in their 5-game set against Lake Forest (twice), St. Viator, New Trier, Loyola Academy. That simply won't get it done. Can they get enough from their attack unit? Connor Loucks graduates, Zach Friedman at midfield graduates. Will guys like Nick Bagatti (M) and Jack Piazzi (A) provide any new firepower as they head into their junior years? Or will AJ Schmidt (M) and Nick Ward (A) have to do everything yet again?
- Are they an injury away from trouble? With what should be a team of over 20 seniors, the Wildcats still don't have a ton of game experience outside their core of starters.
- Can Brady Sullivan get them over the hump? His record against top teams is frightening:
0-7 lifetime against Loyola Academy
0-7 lifetime against New Trier
0-2 lifetime against St. Viator
6-8 lifetime against Lake Forest
Assuming those are 4 top programs in Illinois along with Libertyville, Sullivan is winless against three of them. Furthermore, he is 1-4 against Lake Forest in his last 5 attempts.
I fully expect Libertyville to be very good this year. Can he get that first win against a New Trier, Loyola and St. Viator? If so, can it be when it really matters---in the playoffs?--- we'll see.

4.) New Trier
In my own opinion, I think New Trier is just a touch behind Loyola, St. Viator and Libertyville this year. But, that doesn't discount the fact that Herrala, Schoenwetter, Cauley and Harvey make up arguably the best coaching staff in the state.
The real issue is that New Trier doesn't have the talent they had two years ago. Sawyer, Parks, Connolly are all gone from the program and the Trevians are coming off a 12-12 season and lose a number of big-time playmakers.
In review: Max Kraus, NT's top middie last year, graduated. Jack Connolly, Mr. New Trier himself, graduated. Will Caffrey is gone, Peter Ashmore is gone, Matt Quinlan is gone along with Weimer, Foley, Kahnweiler and Matt O'Neal. It's a big rebuilding year for the Trevians.
Phil Rooney takes over for Connolly in cage and Chad Casas will now be the top "D" guy. Guys like Jack Johnson, Dylan Curry (who has experience), David Stacke, Ross Weber and Owen Roth (has experience as well) will now be thrust into the fire. Can they handle it?
What about NT's midfield? Germano is excellent at face-off (Navy commit) Only Matt Solberg, Tyler Schmarak, Richie Thompson, Chris Clifford (D-middie only last year) and Jack Fitzpatrick really got time this year. Should we expect all of those guys to take big steps forward? Thompson is electric and uber-fast but is primarily known as a defensive middie. Fitzpatrick is a bit of a laborer and how will Clifford make the transition from d-middie to o-middie?
Attack is an interesting topic for NT. Rory McGinnis is as big as a house and is one of the better feeders in his age group but will he get enough help now that O'Neal and Caffrey have departed? The key here is Ben Connolly, the younger brother of Jack. He's been injury-riddled the past two seasons (broke a collarbone as an 8th grader, torn ACL last year as one of two freshman on varsity---Clifford being the other).
NT has a load of questions if there are going to make it into the top 4.

Other teams I see in the mix:

Benet Academy.
-People rave about how good their juniors are. And there is no discounting their star 2014 class in Jack Moran (D1 recruit---not yet committed. Face-off/ O-Middie), Riley Mann (D- Georgetown), Will Mann (Attackman---Riley's twin brother), Reese Koburov (M- outstanding athlete), Peter Fallon (LSM---adjusting to new position), Johnny Mazza (D---great stick) and Liam Simes (A/M---the best of the bunch?). But what about the depth for the Redwings? The goalie situation is dire and if Simes moves back to attack where head coach Richard Moran had him last year--- do the Redwings have any depth at the midfield position after Moran and Koburov?
Defensively, R. Mann, Mazza and Declan McGuire give Benet enough talent to lock guys down and take chances. But, the midfield unit is thin, the attack unit is thin and the goalie situation is muddy. Still, look for Benet to break into the top 8 with their top 2014 talent leading the way.

Lake Forest.
- The Scouts lost a boatload of seniors and coach Dan Maigler will be counting on a host of younger players. David Glynn (2014 M, committed to Quinnipiac) has been labeled by many as the best player in all of Illinois. His travel teammate Lukas Munoz has multiple D1 offers. 2015 stars Connor Walters (A), Wes Janeck (M), Hunter Moore (M) are all fine players but what after that?
The Scouts will be looking for new players at every position just to make up the roster.

Hinsdale Central
- Is this possible? Sure. Illinois lost a lot of talent in the 2012 class and a team like Hinsdale Central can creep into the top 8 potentially. Devon Chenelle in goal along with Jack Bush-Joseph and Andrew Stockmal at defense is a fine base for coach Tom McBride to work with. While HC was a disappointing 9-9 last year they did register a win over a fine Lyons Township team.

Glenbrook North
- The Spartans are slowly getting better. But, what about their depth and coaching? Their entire attack unit returns with Liu, McFarland and Maksimovic. The issue for GBN is losing two starting defenseman on a team that leaked goals left and right to the top teams.
Case in point:
GBN surrendered 10 to New Trier, 8 to Benet, 9 to St. Viator, 15 to Wheaton-Warrenville South, 16 to Loyola Academy and 13 to Lake Forest.
That's a big issue. The Spartans should be fun to watch with their offense but defensively, it could be a big issue.

Wheaton Warrenville South
-Head Coach Mike Blouin got the Tigers to the Final 4 for the first time in school history last year. Gone are Tyler Cook (High Point) on top of a bevy of other seniors. But, don't discount a pair of star juniors in Joe Kazar (M) and Dominic Dalmaso (A). Kazar impressed college coaches big-time this summer with his downhill running-style and ability to go either way. Dalmaso, a mini-mite at 5'6, plays as hard as anyone in Illinois and is one of the better all-around attackman with his dodging, passing and shooting ability. Look for a pair of 2015 players in Pat Staughton (6'6 defenseman) and David Dalmaso (Dominic's younger brother---Face-off) to get some time as Blouin slowly builds his team for the 2014 season.

Quick notes on some other teams:

- Waubonsie Valley should be able to score with Wood but they lose EVERYTHING else in the program and shouldn't be anywhere near the top 10.

- Neuqua Valley could be a team to watch with goalie Sammy Sanko leading the way. He's a lefty, stud-athlete and provides a great defensive foundation for Brendan Gorman's team. Could potentially be a surprise ticket this year.

- St. Ignatius graduated plenty and is looking for a new coach. Don't count on them to be a factor.

- Fenwick brings back star attackman Alex Lambert but loses All-American midfielder Peter Moreno. Don't look for Tim Duffy's team to be in the mix.

- St. Charles North. Will only go as far as attackman Riley Martin can take them.

- Evanston. Charlie Cunningham is one of the better midfielders in Illinois but defense, depth hurt the Wildkits' chances.

- My true sleeper team will be Glenbard West. The Hilltoppers have arguably the top face-off man in Illinois (including Schatz, Uhland, Moran and Germano) in Jake Manzella. Can Joel Mayo ('14 M) and Joe Leland ('14 A/M) give them enough to overcome some serious defensive issues?

You are...ridiculously well informed regarding Illinois lacrosse. Just, wow. I'd like to tell everyone who cares about Illinois lacrosse to read this. One other thing: Isn't Waubonsie retaining Mersch as well? Just to chime in, my pre-season top 8:

1. Libertyville: 20 seniors + Cole Blazer = success
2. Loyola Academy
3. St. Viator
4. New Trier
5. Lake Forest
6. Benet
7. Hinsdale Central: Very, very good defensively. Won't be the best pure lacrosse unit, or the flashiest but I feel they may be the most physical defensive unit in the state. Only serious question mark is the attack unit.
8. Nequa Valley: Very strong class of '14.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

New trier sure does have an outstanding class, ben connoly is going to only get better, but he has had injury problems. I personally think that O'connell does not have much room for improvement as he did not get much field time as a freshman. He only has one chance at making an impact on the varsity team and that is if he plays some solid middie defense. Also the F/O guy u r thinking of is mike carlin.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

2.) Saint Viator- Senior Peter Trunk committed to Rutgers. Trunk can play Attack or Midfield. Big-time quickness, very good shooter. Saint Viator is going to Florida this year to play. Should be excellent.

3.) I still think Libertyville is third. Goalie and defense are huge strengths. They are going down to Kentucky to play some good teams. Should be a nice prep for the season.

4.) New Trier. Word is that Ben Connolly has done terrific in the fall and should be ready to play meaningful minutes this year should he stay injury-free. The Trevians also got a transfer from Maryland, an attackman who could help.

5.) Lake Forest. I'm warming up to their starting lineup. Glynn (Quinnipiac) and Munoz (Bucknell) should be the cornerstones but watch out for a host of sophomores to play a boatload of possessions. Connor Walters (dad played at UMASS) should start at attack, Wesley Janeck at midfield, Mac Mantegne also at midfield. Hunter Moore tore his ACL so his season may be in doubt.

6.) Word from the Benet folks is that freshman Will O'Grady will start from day one at defense. That would give Benet three confirmed or potential D1 commits as part of their defensive unit. Senior Declan McGuire has since committed to Lafayette, junior Riley Mann is off to Georgetown and O'Grady seems to have a ton of long-term potential. Midfield will still be a major strength for the Red Wings with juniors Jack Moran (Furman), Reese Koburov and Liam Simes. Peter Fallon and Charlie Sandor will man the LSM positions. If Will Mann can give Benet steady play at attack (he needs help) the Red Wings could be looking at their first-ever Final Four appearance.

A few other notes:

- Nick Wood (Virginia) may miss the entire season for Waubonsie Valley.

- Does Saint Ignatius have a coach yet?

- Wheaton Warrenville South has an outstanding coach but the loss of a number of seniors may slow them down a touch for this year. Could be very good though in the 2014 season.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

You wrote: "the Red Wings could be looking at their first-ever Final Four appearance". Just clarifying that if Benet won the cup in 2008, they will be trying for their second final four appearance.

The Lacrosse Cup is the championship for the B-league or second tier teams - mostly filled with newer teams or schools that can not get a lot of support from their school. Usually once a team wins that, they bump up to the A league for a shot at the true state championship.

Edit: for clarification, teams in the A division mostly do no play against teams in the B division during the season, and they have their own playoff system.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

IL Lax season kicks off in a big way Monday with Libertyville, New Trier, Evanston, Waubonsie and Wheaton S. all registered for play in McCook for the True Presidents' Day Tourney. Should be a great chance to see who's already got the winter rust off.

Edit: St Viator just added to the mix!

Last edited by ILHSLAXFAN; 02-16-2013 at 05:54 PM.
Reason: Late addition

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Everest was from Canada. There were only 15 IL teams in the tournament, New Trier was split in to two teams. Loyola was not there. Lake Forest was not there. Waubonsie was not there. Benet was not there. etc. Several teams who were there did not have their full rosters. Teams could not be coached by their real coaches, the games were 30 minute running time. Basically what all of this means is that Pre-season tournaments mean nothing. Besides, Geneva is in the B-division. By default they can't be a power in Illinois.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

It was still good to see three top ten programs out there playing, partial squads notwithstanding. Would have been good to see Viator, Libertyville and NT go up against the Everest squad. They were hands down the best of the group in McCook. They were however a full squad, coached by their coach, etc. Frosh goalie, Walker Hare, looked good for LHS...rich get richer I guess.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Spring breaks almost over and games should be starting up soon! Was anyone able to catch the Loyola vs. St Ignatius game? Loyola put up 21 and only let in 3! If anyone saw that game feel free to fill me in on what went down as I missed it and only saw the score. I play for Mount Carmel and it's our second year as a varsity program and we have to play Loyola in a few weeks and judging by there goal totals its gonna be mostly a learning experience for us. If anyone cares about the B league, I think that there doesn't seem to be a clear cut dominant team in B this year and that it's going to come down to whoever has the most sound fundamentals in the lacrosse cup. Hope everyones enjoying spring break!

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Originally Posted by chiefs-lax-22

Spring breaks almost over and games should be starting up soon! Was anyone able to catch the Loyola vs. St Ignatius game? Loyola put up 21 and only let in 3! If anyone saw that game feel free to fill me in on what went down as I missed it and only saw the score. I play for Mount Carmel and it's our second year as a varsity program and we have to play Loyola in a few weeks and judging by there goal totals its gonna be mostly a learning experience for us. If anyone cares about the B league, I think that there doesn't seem to be a clear cut dominant team in B this year and that it's going to come down to whoever has the most sound fundamentals in the lacrosse cup. Hope everyones enjoying spring break!

Loyola has a very good offense with alot of depth and moves the ball quite well and scores from both the attack and the midfield. It has a very deep midfield, as two of the top midfielders were out vs. Ignatius and they still put up big offensive numbers. They havent really been tested on d. It will be interesting to see how they do in NY next week against really formidable competition.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Originally Posted by LaxIllini

Loyola has a very good offense with alot of depth and moves the ball quite well and scores from both the attack and the midfield. It has a very deep midfield, as two of the top midfielders were out vs. Ignatius and they still put up big offensive numbers. They havent really been tested on d. It will be interesting to see how they do in NY next week against really formidable competition.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Loyola doing quite well out in upstate NY

The played Ithaca yesterday, Ithaca was a top 5 team in the NE preseason and the Ramblers lost 10 to 9 in sudden death overtime. Played Irondiquiot today who was the class B runner up in NY last year and LA won 10 to 5. Play West Genny tommorrow. FWIW, unbiased people who saw the game against Ithaca say that LA looks much better this year at this time than they did on last years trip to NY. Schatz and Joe U won 80% of the faceoffs yesterday.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Libertyville opened with a good, but shaky, week with victories over 2012 B Champ Grayslake N. 10-9 and St Viator 8-7 in OT. Defense and goaltending were supposed to be this group's strength, but they have really not stepped up and played to expecations. Injury to Soph. Tristan Stelzner hurts the depth on an already shallow middie corps. LHS needs somone to step up and provide some leadership on the defensive side of the field.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

What is it going to take for Illinois teams to start getting some national love?

Loyola Academy just trounced Brother Rice, MI, the team IL had at number 3 in the region, 20-2. Will this be enough for the national media to quit turning a blind eye to lax in the midwest?

Loyola, NewTrier, Libertyville, St. Viator...is it their lack of playing out East (other than LA who regularly schedules games outside of Lake-Cook Illinois) that keeps them from being mentioned in any national media, even in the regional sub-posts?

Even individuals in Illinois are being overlooked. AJ Fish's 54 points in 6 games merits some attention! I'm sure the top Illinois powers have stories that are of equal merit. Is there not enough demand for lacrosse news in the midwest to get IL writers to spend a little time and devote an hour or two to writing a decent story about Illinois lacrosse?

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

What is it going to take for Illinois teams to start getting some national love?

Loyola Academy just trounced Brother Rice, MI, the team IL had at number 3 in the region, 20-2. Will this be enough for the national media to quit turning a blind eye to lax in the midwest?

Loyola, NewTrier, Libertyville, St. Viator...is it their lack of playing out East (other than LA who regularly schedules games outside of Lake-Cook Illinois) that keeps them from being mentioned in any national media, even in the regional sub-posts?

Even individuals in Illinois are being overlooked. AJ Fish's 54 points in 6 games merits some attention! I'm sure the top Illinois powers have stories that are of equal merit. Is there not enough demand for lacrosse news in the midwest to get IL writers to spend a little time and devote an hour or two to writing a decent story about Illinois lacrosse?

IL, feed me some Illinois lacrosee...

It is probably because of ignorant statements like this and the complete lack of knowledge by posters. Do you really think that LA beat Brother Rice from Michigan 20-2? The same Brother Rice that beat New Trier 9-4 and lost to Culver 17-9.

It was Brother Rice, a south side catholic school. An Illinios B team.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Originally Posted by JimmyJack

It is probably because of ignorant statements like this and the complete lack of knowledge by posters. Do you really think that LA beat Brother Rice from Michigan 20-2? The same Brother Rice that beat New Trier 9-4 and lost to Culver 17-9.

It was Brother Rice, a south side catholic school. An Illinios B team.

I stand corrected. My only problem??? I took the information from IL's own Regional Rankings:

NOTES: Arch. Moeller makes the biggest drop after losing to Worthington Kilbourne, who themselves lost big to Culver Academy Prep. Moeller plays Upper Arlington this week, which will help further shape the Midwest. Brother Rice slips into the three spot. They play No. 7 Loyola Academy (Ill.) this week.

Thank you for the correction, now pass it on to the correct parties...the editors at IL.

As was the intent of my post, any talk about Illinois lacrosse is good talk about Illinois lacrosse.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Originally Posted by JimmyJack

NT 6 LA 4. Anybody see it?

NT had 3 goals in the first 5 mins. NT goalie was standing on his head for 3/4 of the game only giving up goals late. Game played pretty much even for the last 3 quarters. LA looked small by comparison. LA can really move the ball, but may be susceptible to teams with some size. (Libertyville, GBN even Grayslake N.).

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Congrats to the Ramblers on giving out a little taste of Illinois Lax to Carmel(IN). A 12 - 1 drubbing of Carmel should merit a little love from the writer/analysts(and I use the term loosely) at IL. So New Trier beats Loyola, and Loyola beats Carmel and Carmel was ranked 8th over both...Regional rankings better have two Illionis teams in the Midwest tomorrow!

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Originally Posted by ILHSLAXFAN

Congrats to the Ramblers on giving out a little taste of Illinois Lax to Carmel(IN). A 12 - 1 drubbing of Carmel should merit a little love from the writer/analysts(and I use the term loosely) at IL. So New Trier beats Loyola, and Loyola beats Carmel and Carmel was ranked 8th over both...Regional rankings better have two Illionis teams in the Midwest tomorrow!

Come on IL writers, don't leave us hanging!!!

Totally agree. I hope Loyola didn't have to travel to beat them! IL is really out of touch in a lot of areas... (with all due respect) and I know it is tough to cover an entire nation, but they really need to do their homework as to Illinois lacrosse... The top 5 or so teams in Illinois play VERY respectable lax

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Originally Posted by Rootboy

Totally agree. I hope Loyola didn't have to travel to beat them! IL is really out of touch in a lot of areas... (with all due respect) and I know it is tough to cover an entire nation, but they really need to do their homework as to Illinois lacrosse... The top 5 or so teams in Illinois play VERY respectable lax

It's respectable but its still not great lacrosse. Not good enough to be consider in the top of the country. Let just say that NT is the top dog right now b/c they beat LA and ST. Viator. They lost to Brother Rice 9-4 and I doubt they get a win this weekend at Culver. LA lost to West Genny 12-4 and West Genny just got beat 12-4 by someone. Yes West Genny is good, but they are not great. Their record is 6-4 take away the LA game and they are 1 game over .500 in upstate NY. They are a mediocre team this year. Illinios teams don't beat Brother Rice, Culver or any of the top 5 or 6 teams in Ohio. They just don't. The only time it happened was a couple of years ago when NT was real good. And they won the state championship game 9-2. The rest of the state was that far behind. So while Illinois lacrosse is getting better, the top teams have not won a big game out of state game in a couple of years.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

It took Ithaca overtime to beat Loyola Academy who then turned around and beat Irondequoit 10-5.

Irondequoit was the Section B runner-up last year.

I disagree the top teams year in and year out in Illinois aren't competitive nationally against the best. Not better. Maybe not even "even" with them. But, very competitive.

Either Ithaca is not a top 10 team or they played all their scrubs vs LA. there is no way that LA can hang woth a top 10 team in country. Nothing against LA, no Illinois teams can. If you think they can, then you just do not understand how good those top team are. Wait until they play Culver.

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Culver is not a high school team. It is a recruited all star prep school team that has kids from all over including Canada .i.e Brandon Benn.

Rumor of the day is that Nick Wood is going to Culver and being held back a year. A lot of those Culver kids are 18 19 and in some cases 20 year olds playing against high school teams. If the rumor is true, Wood would be a 2015 at Culver. Let Lake Forest, Loyola and NT play Culver's JV team and see what the result is.

Ithaca is currently a Top 5 team in NY at 8-0 and they played their varsity guys. LA played well that day

Culver is what they are, but to call them a high scool team is not an accurate description

Re: Illinois HS Lacrosse 2013

Don't get me wrong...you are right.... its respectable, thought not great... It also goes back to the age-old debate of private vs. public schools. At least in Illinois and to a degree, the entire Midwest, comparing public schools and private schools is an apple/orange thing.... At the end of the day, "hotbeds" are hotbeds because they got the numbers, right? The same areas that are hotbeds now were hotbeds 35 years ago and until Illinois get those kind of numbers (meaning the number of players), they will not have great lacrosse....but I digress....