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Exhaling deeply helps relaxing the muscles and thus removing muscular tension. Getting a massage would have a similar relaxing effect, so I don't think this particular fact is very interesting.
More interesting is how breathing exercises can condition the suit, so that the suit can carry more of the load (besides the bones and a small amount of muscle). Basic idea behind these exercises is to adopt a posture that stretches the suit and then do deep abdominal breathing or reverse breathing. (Are you familiar with the concept of the 'suit'? The word has seen some use on this forum before, so I'm assuming you are.)
Of course, you can do the same thing during kokyu-ho to make as much use of the suit as possible to carry the load. Engaging the suit in this manner can be seen as a way of dispersing the tension as it makes your body better at bearing a load. Otoh, stretching the suit also results in a particular kind of tension and so does reverse breathing, although pressure might be a better word than tension when referring to the relation between the suit and breathing.
To be honest, I don't really focus on my breathing while doing kokyu-ho; there are more important things for me to focus on at this point. During solo practice I do actively work with my breathing and I have noticed there is some carry-over to partner work.
I can also imagine that you can do more complicated things with the breath, although I would be careful not to become too dependent on having to time your breathing with what you want to do. Don't know if that would be an issue.

I'm aware of the concept of the suit. Mike Sigman allowed me to join his Qjin list where this and many other concepts are quite thoroughly explored. I haven't been there for a while, though. There's a very deep level of information that can become overwhelming to someone who doesn't know a whole lot.

One of the nice things about the discussions about these things on aikiweb is that the information is fairly basic and a little easier to follow.

I haven't had direct exposure to anyone who has taught this specific concept directly, so I may grasp this concept differently from you or others who have had such experience.

One concept I have of how the body works in relation to this is that "lines of force" emanate from/via the tanden region referred to by Ignatius previously. This is why it's so important to isolate this "Thing" and actively develop it. I'm currently interested in the various approaches to pressurising (ie excercising) the tanden.

I know there are many approaches (RE the Abe quote above).
The ones that are particularly pertinent to this thread MAY be via breath and certain types of grabs in seiza.

So I am particularly interested in using Kokyu (breathing) to develop this at the moment. It sounds to me like you have other approaches to this.

I'm aware of the concept of the suit
<snip>
I haven't had direct exposure to anyone who has taught this specific concept directly, so I may grasp this concept differently from you or others who have had such experience

Stand with your feet at about shoulder width, arms out to the side, fingers slightly facing upwards, relax as much as possible and take a deep abdominal breath, but use your abdominal muscles to keep your stomach from expanding (i.e. reverse breathing). If you can feel something pulling in your finger (perhaps also hands, forearms, etc.) beneath your skin, that's the suit.
If you get a headache, you're trying to hard. Thinking of pushing down with the diaphragm helps me to keep the pressure from rising to my head. (So a big warning here: be very gentle with yourself, overdoing this will lead to medical problems related to high blood pressure. Proceed at your own risk.)

Quote:

One concept I have of how the body works in relation to this is that "lines of force" emanate from/via the tanden region referred to by Ignatius previously.

Hmm... not how I would phrase it. The suit with the tanden as center as certain physical properties. If you exert force on it, the force will follow certain lines through it, because of its physical properties. That's where the idea of the meridians probably comes from. My intended training progression is: suit - lines - tanden. (With plenty of overlap, of course. First develop suit until aware of the lines, then allow one to inform the training of the other, etc.)

Quote:

I know there are many approaches (RE the Abe quote above).
The ones that are particularly pertinent to this thread MAY be via breath and certain types of grabs in seiza.

What kinds of grabs are you thinking of?

Quote:

So I am particularly interested in using Kokyu (breathing) to develop this at the moment. It sounds to me like you have other approaches to this.

The standing practice of Taikiken (aka 'ritsuzen', 'zhan zhuang' in Chinese) has helped me in developing some 'suit', but the more breathing practice I do, the more obvious it becomes how useful it is. I have the impression (don't think it's entirely correct, though) that standing works more from the outside in and breathing from the inside out. Anyhow, good breathing practice will pressurize the abdomen, so if you want to train the hara, it makes sense to do something that works that area, no?

The suit with the tanden as center as certain physical properties. If you exert force on it, the force will follow certain lines through it, because of its physical properties.

The body, in gross structure, is a series of connected tubes. Every structure is weakest in shear, and especially torsional shear. In a tube under torsion the shear strain is largest at the surface and zero at the axis of the tube. The "suit" and "lines" is simply the sensation of the torsional strains being transmitted along the fascial tissues at the periophery of the torso and limbs -- the shear stress lines -- one compressive, and one tensile (i.e -- tenchi), are at right angles to one another and both diagonal with respect to the axis of the twist, as the lines of "contradictory stress" spiral ("windings") around the tube.

Deeper understanding will come to recognize that this relationship in relatively static stress of "Taut" action (rotational moments) is mathematically and physically interchangeable with and equivalent to actual periodic rotations (pendulum behavior) in more "Loose" action.

Training methods may vary, but correct understanding of the flow of stresses, strains and induced motions in the body will help what ever training you are doing.

Stand with your feet at about shoulder width, arms out to the side, fingers slightly facing upwards, relax as much as possible and take a deep abdominal breath, but use your abdominal muscles to keep your stomach from expanding (i.e. reverse breathing). If you can feel something pulling in your finger (perhaps also hands, forearms, etc.) beneath your skin, that's the suit.
If you get a headache, you're trying to hard. Thinking of pushing down with the diaphragm helps me to keep the pressure from rising to my head. (So a big warning here: be very gentle with yourself, overdoing this will lead to medical problems related to high blood pressure. Proceed at your own risk.)

Hmm... not how I would phrase it. The suit with the tanden as center as certain physical properties. If you exert force on it, the force will follow certain lines through it, because of its physical properties. That's where the idea of the meridians probably comes from. My intended training progression is: suit - lines - tanden. (With plenty of overlap, of course. First develop suit until aware of the lines, then allow one to inform the training of the other, etc.)

What kinds of grabs are you thinking of?

The standing practice of Taikiken (aka 'ritsuzen', 'zhan zhuang' in Chinese) has helped me in developing some 'suit', but the more breathing practice I do, the more obvious it becomes how useful it is. I have the impression (don't think it's entirely correct, though) that standing works more from the outside in and breathing from the inside out. Anyhow, good breathing practice will pressurize the abdomen, so if you want to train the hara, it makes sense to do something that works that area, no?

Joep,

thanks very much for the considered post. It's very generous of you to share your knowledge.

RE: the breathing excercises: I'm actually working to take the tension out from the diapraghm especially (along with the chest/shoulders/neck) in order to create a "pure" pressure of breath upon the lower tanden. This includes mental imagery (such as opening the upper tanden areas) along with sensitivity to the physical effects of breath within the body.

... The way an expert calligrapher does characters was also supposed to be an indication of his hara and interenal strength development (which is why in the movie "Hero", Jet Li wanted to see how 'Broken Sword' did a certain character with a brush).

Maybe the point is...[/url]

Mike Sigman

nice.
like how you flick your body
.
i really liked that movie. you know what else blew my mind was the way they showed time slow down when the mandolin player was going at it in the beginning and they had their whole fight .... in their minds. and they could play it out to know who would win...and that eventuality startled them back to consciousness at that present moment...and *actually* started the fight. yeah. that well portrayed what it was like to step outside of time. afaik.

mike - why and what do you think you could possibly learn about watching someone write a character?

RE: the breathing excercises: I'm actually working to take the tension out from the diapraghm especially (along with the chest/shoulders/neck) in order to create a "pure" pressure of breath upon the lower tanden. This includes mental imagery (such as opening the upper tanden areas) along with sensitivity to the physical effects of breath within the body.

thanks for that. i was experiencing big changes by fully -relaxing- and flexing the entire are strongly...but quickly. Like once or twice each breath. Loose but intense flex; for just a split second. Developing 'quick twitch' reaction possibility then then helps to jjust let go and breathe uniform pressure later. brain trusts you... or something.

mike - why and what do you think you could possibly learn about watching someone write a character?

Not Mike, but I'll offer a thought. The brush is basically an extension of your arm. In the hands of an expert, the brush is an extension of their mind and body. Watching an "expert" brush a character, a trained person can discern how much arm or mind/body connection is involved.

From there, the trained person could also gauge how good the "expert" might be at wielding a sword, because the principles of body usage are the same.

It's the same reasoning Ueshiba gave some dancer a 10th dan in Aikido after merely watching a performance.

Why not ask just that in the beginning without the charcter assasination??

Why indeed??

Yikes
Reminds me of why I've moved on so much.

Best,
Ron

Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote:

That's the exact quote I was going to pull before Michael beat me to it.

"That's pretty telling. It's actually the tanden no seika, or dantien (in Chinese). It's a hard, articulate muscle-like structure that's located approximately 4 fingers width below your navel and 1 fist deep in the body. Like any other "muscle" in your body - including your brain, unless you physically and consciously exercise it, it's not going to develop. Good luck with that too."

1.Why not give a clear explanation in how to isolate and develop
this muscle?

2. How does this muscle come into play when your wrists are grabbed? How do you isolate and utilize this muscle in "Kokyu-Ho"
or suburi for that matter?

Jonathan made a concerted effort to explain and describe how he trained and what he understood suburi and the rowing excercise to be over a number of posts. He provided videos to illustrate his thoughts. The "Socratic Midwife" approach is fine to an extent, but
why not just give him some clear pointers on this basic thing?

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

Well, just to interject a comment, being able to toss a weight with the belly (as in the video Bob just pointed to) is indeed an old skill that was remarked upon, but that particular skill doesn't necessarily show/demonstrate the peculiar muscular development that derives from years of manipulating the rest of the body with the dantien/hara.

I understand your point about these discussions. They can get rather heated and perhaps my own language was a trifle intemperate.
Anyway, a lot of good stuff has come out over the past few pages and that can only be a good thing.

Not Mike, but I'll offer a thought. The brush is basically an extension of your arm. In the hands of an expert, the brush is an extension of their mind and body. Watching an "expert" brush a character, a trained person can discern how much arm or mind/body connection is involved.

From there, the trained person could also gauge how good the "expert" might be at wielding a sword, because the principles of body usage are the same.

It's the same reasoning Ueshiba gave some dancer a 10th dan in Aikido after merely watching a performance.

Hi Ignatius - Thanks. I definitely hear you. I was meaning like ... maybe a specific thing along the lines you discuss in general. Maybe it's an impossible question over the intertube.
J