The Greeks Get It

Posted on May 24, 2010

Here’s to the Greeks. They know what to do when corporations pillage and loot their country. They know what to do when Goldman Sachs and international bankers collude with their power elite to falsify economic data and then make billions betting that the Greek economy will collapse. They know what to do when they are told their pensions, benefits and jobs have to be cut to pay corporate banks, which screwed them in the first place. Call a general strike. Riot. Shut down the city centers. Toss the bastards out. Do not be afraid of the language of class warfare—the rich versus the poor, the oligarchs versus the citizens, the capitalists versus the proletariat. The Greeks, unlike most of us, get it.

The former right-wing government of Greece lied about the size of the country’s budget deficit. It was not 3.7 percent of gross domestic product but 13.6 percent. And it now looks like the economies of Spain, Ireland, Italy and Portugal are as bad as Greece’s, which is why the euro has lost 20 percent of its value in the last few months. The few hundred billion in bailouts for other faltering European states, like our own bailouts, have only forestalled disaster. This is why the U.S. stock exchange is in free fall and gold is rocketing upward. American banks do not have heavy exposure in Greece, but Greece, as most economists concede, is only the start. Wall Street is deeply invested in other European states, and when the unraveling begins the foundations of our own economy will rumble and crack as loudly as the collapse in Athens. The corporate overlords will demand that we too impose draconian controls and cuts or see credit evaporate. They have the money and the power to hurt us. There will be more unemployment, more personal and commercial bankruptcies, more foreclosures and more human misery. And the corporate state, despite this suffering, will continue to plunge us deeper into debt to make war. It will use fear to keep us passive. We are being consumed from the inside out. Our economy is as rotten as the economy in Greece. We too borrow billions a day to stay afloat. We too have staggering deficits, which can never be repaid. Heed the dire rhetoric of European leaders.

“The euro is in danger,” German Chancellor Angela Merkel told lawmakers last week as she called on them to approve Germany’s portion of the bailout plan. “If we do not avert this danger, then the consequences for Europe are incalculable, and then the consequences beyond Europe are incalculable.”

Beyond Europe means us. The right-wing government of Kostas Karamanlis, which preceded the current government of George Papandreou, did what the Republicans did under George W. Bush. They looted taxpayer funds to enrich their corporate masters and bankrupt the country. They stole hundreds of millions of dollars from individual retirement and pension accounts slowly built up over years by citizens who had been honest and industrious. They used mass propaganda to make the population afraid of terrorists and surrender civil liberties, including habeas corpus. And while Bush and Karamanlis, along with the corporate criminal class they abetted, live in unparalleled luxury, ordinary working men and women are told they must endure even more pain and suffering to make amends. It is feudal rape. And there has to be a point when even the American public—which still believes the fairy tale that personal will power and positive thinking will lead to success—will realize it has been had.

We have seen these austerity measures before. Latin Americans, like the Russians, were forced by the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank to gut social services, end subsidies on basic goods and food, and decimate the income levels of the middle class—the foundation of democracy—in the name of fiscal responsibility. Small entrepreneurs, especially farmers, were wiped out. State industries were sold off by corrupt government officials to capitalists for a fraction of their value. Utilities and state services were privatized.

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What is happening in Greece, what will happen in Spain and Portugal, what is starting to happen here in states such as California, is the work of a global, white-collar criminal class. No government, including our own, will defy them. It is up to us. Barack Obama is simply the latest face that masks the corporate state. His administration serves corporate interests, not ours. Obama, like Goldman Sachs or Citibank, does not want the public to see how the Federal Reserve Bank acts as a private account and ATM machine for Wall Street at our expense. He, too, has helped orchestrate the largest transference of wealth upward in American history. He serves our imperial wars, refuses to restore civil liberties, and has not tamed our crippling deficits. His administration gutted regulatory agencies that permitted BP to turn the Gulf of Mexico into a toxic swamp. The refusal of Obama to intervene in a meaningful way to save the gulf’s ecosystem and curtail the abuses of the natural gas and oil corporations is not an accident. He knows where power lies. BP and its employees handed more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

Whoops!
It was the golden apple of Eris, not Eros. The goddess of Discord, not the god of Love.

John Ellis—-that mysogyny is repulsive. Not too fond of that messianic avatar either.

There is no difference between an Atheist who is female and one who is male. Their “fixtures” are irrelevant. Shenon happens to be one of the most articulate, best educated and most disciplined minds posting on TD. She is a far more disciplined scholar than the author of this thread: Chris Hedges.

She’s certainly better at close reasoning than you are because her arguments hold together. Yours are a list of parables and metaphors.

What you wrote for Mr. Ellis may have been relevant for his messages—I don’t know, I don’t read them—but it doesn’t seem relevant to mine. And it was all rather tendentious. Do you suppose you could hone it all down a bit? And skip the ad-hominems—you don’t know anything about me.

You have a provincial’s idea of an atheist and you sound like a
misogynist as well, John Ellis. “Such are the little of mind, they
cannot inherit the earth for they would not be able to find it,”
a beatitude by a female atheist.

Yeah, in Minos’s case, he danced to the mantic Pontian of Dionysus rather
than the calm most ancient form of dance, the Syrtós Kítrinou dance of
Apollo, he went for the body instead of the mind, gold instead of
Morpheus. So did Nietzsche, right? Ah yes, Eros’s golden apples caused
a lot of mayhem. Now where is Hermes when we need him?

yeah, Sirens, Harpies, and Gorgons are all defined as part woman, part bird, and (in the Gorgons’ case, part snake). But then there is the Minotaur, part man/part bull, and satyrs, part man, part goat, and, of course, Centaurs, part man, part horse, and all crazy-mad (Except Charon, the teacher).

Oh, and the Sphinx: Woman, lion, eagle, snake, and, I believe, goat. Those are all I remember…oh…and King Midas, who, never having learned his lesson, preferred the music of a satyr’s pan-pipe to Apollo’s lyre—and Apollo gave him ass’s ears as a result (NEVER cross a Greek God—they were terribly unforgiving—Hera and Athena caused the Trojan War war because they were pissed that Alexandros (Paris) gave the golden apple of Eris to Aphrodite)

Do you imagine jay1953 that you are addressing a rational man
when you speak to John Ellis? Why is it the remnant of the savior
complex resides in a great many men thinking that the incapable to think
for themselves without reference to “a higher power” is actually
psychically salvageable. It is a delusion I am convinced. Conversion is
only possible with a willing and seeking mind. Do you think for a minute
he is a willing and seeking mind or has a shred of respect for you? Just
read his mind as exposed in his posts. Yes, someone said it earlier.
There is no there there.

DaveZx3—the problem is that the rich don’t leave the poor alone on their little decks. A lot of those decks have been taken away, and if the present disparities of wealth continue to increase, a lot more will be.

In the case of the Greeks, though, it’s more than the rich pushing the poor around through real estate, interest, fees, taxes, profits, eminent domain, zoning and so forth. The Greek government also committed fraud: it made deals with unions representing workers for certain benefits like pensions and medical insurance. Apparently these obligations were not funded, and now the government says it doesn’t have the money. If an individual or corporation did this, it would have to declare bankruptcy.

Paul Krugman, in an article a couple of weeks ago, lamented the fact that Greece was stuck in the euro zone. In the good old days, the Greek government could simply have defrauded the workers by devaluing the currency. Krugman loves inflation; it can solve so many problems for his rich, important friends. But the Germans, who are the big cheeses of the euro, won’t let this happen; they have a special feeling and history of inflation, a German thing I guess Krugman wouldn’t understand. So some of the Greek government’s embarrassments are going to be offloaded onto the German workers (and some to the Greeks). It’s hard times for all (except, of course, the rich, the politicians, the upper bureaucrats, corporate management and other important people).

So far, there is nothing revolutionary here, because a revolution implies a change in relationships and values. Everyone is still out trying to get more stuff and keep what they’ve got, which is the mainspring of capitalist-liberal pseudodemocracy, dog eat dog and devil take the hindmost. Under the circumstances the temptation to fraud is evidently overwhelming. The Greek workers have no recourse within liberal-capitalism but to make trouble about being on the business end of one particular instance of fraud. They can’t sue, as far as I know. But they can march in the streets and some of them (or maybe agent-provocateurs) can burn down a bank or two. It won’t make any difference, Hedges’s breathless admiration to the contrary notwithstanding.

I don’t know what Martin Luther King could do about a situation like this without becoming some kind of socialist, communist or anarchist, in other words, stepping outside the present system of operating plutocracy and threatened violence. But that’s another story, because King has been turned into a magic doll and everyone else is still out for stuff.

And now once again back to our usual program of adolescent violence fantasies, I suppose.

Whatever bible I grew up with, John Ellis, is the one I grew up
with. A tautology. And I couldn’t care less what bible you choose to
bow to. I am an atheist hence no bible has any traction. They are all
based on mythology. Invention. It is humans like yourself who are the
fakes, who are less than the human potential. You are among the
supplicants, who need external reason to be moral, to be forced by
fear. Whose every mental act hinges on some imagined paradise after
you die. No wonder your mind is always under your zipper.

ITW, the little Siren has been dealt with, soundly. Explained in
detail. I gave the precise website where the image of the little Siren is
and all about it. See May 27 at 12:50 am. The so-called “leg” that
looks like it is seductively raised a bit is really a wing lots of laughs,
because the Siren is half bird half woman beastie. hahaha Unbelievable
how chauvanistic and retarded a guy in the 21st century can be… All
for a Song! Eyes in under your zipper! It’s the latest rap song. hahaha
You men…ought to get a real mind instead of keeping it in “that place,”
as the kindergartners are fond of saying. Putting loin cloths and
pasties on classical sculpture, what a hoot! Laughing all the way to the
museum. Isn’t that the most adult thing that can be said? snicker
snicker…. At least you are brave enough to say something! You get
five yups for that. That is the highest honor I am capable of giving.
You might even be the biggest mensch on Truthdig. One is only as
good as one’s last post, right?

The ignorant will not inherit the earth. They will drown in the Sea of ?
Oblivion. Glug glug glug and you can remember that Shenonymous
said that!

You raise a lot of questions with your post. At the same time you reveal much about yourself.

Can it possibly be that you are so ignorant and prejudicial?
Most fanatics, radicals and extremists are.
Do you consider yourself a radical? an extremist? a fanatic?
Do you see yourself as coherent of thought? Are you an angry individual?

So if I don’t conform to a pre-conceived notion of what you conclude I should think and believe in then I must have a big bank account?
What a shallow method to base your values and judgments on.

Do you have an obsession with branding thought so you can organize individuals into preconceived pigeonholes?
Ask yourself are not these structured preconceptions and stereotypes of other people based their beliefs the same structure of the thought process that goes into hating a group of people for a specific characteristic?
Isn’t this prejudicial structured though process the basis of such things as racism?
Are you a racist? or are you a reformed racist? or are you in the process of reformation?
Just asking not accusing.
I’m wondering if you’re shifting one ingrained anger from one stereotypical preconception to another? It need not be racism, but racism certainly qualifies.
You certainly seem to be going through a transformative process in search of fundamentally defining yourself. I don’t know you personally but you are pouring your thoughts on these pages. So the question is, are you going through this process?

You want me to teach you how to be a socialist? Aren’t you really asking me this question to see if I fit into one of your preconceived pigeonholes?
Why do you feel that I have to fit any preconceived notion that you may have set for yourself?
Do you own the truth on what is a Socialist?
Do you live in a word of absolutes?
If so, wouldn’t that make you an intolerant individual?
Do you recognize if you are intolerant or not?

Isn’t being a socialist motivated in having a social conscious? a social compass? social morality? empathy? compassion? an urge for social equality? an urge for economic equality? a sense of community?
Are not these concepts internalized? Can I teach you to internalized these concepts Mr. Ellis?
Aren’t these internalized social instincts a fundamental ingredient of being of a socialist mindset?
Can I really teach you to internalized these instincts Mr. Ellis?
Aren’t instincts born from within the individual?

Dear lady, your picture is legalized pornography, and if she had her knee a couple of inches higher, it would be illegal pornography.

But then, we live in a society where every teenage boy in the neighborhood knows the curve and shape of ever woman’s buttocks in the neighborhood.

Surely a stench in the nostrils of any Moslem with integredy.
******************************************

Actually, it’s classic Greek pottery and I’ve seen FAR more graphic works in Greek museums in Argos, Knossos and Athens. Would you put loin cloths and pasties on every classical sculpture? You’ll be busy!

BTW, I’m curious about the ego of a man posting a picture of himself trying to look like a wise, older version of Clint Eastwood….Why do you do that?

Your posts reflect a flavor that you “know things” without having to document them. I find this amusing, rather than informative or thought-provoking. Your re-vamped “Constitution” had me rolling on the floor! It’s fundamentally racist by creating castes in the society of “Native American” and “Non Native American” It’s those sorts of birth-based distinctions that the country has worked hard to overcome..

“So jay1953, please do tell us your net worth and class so we can see, if you play golf among the Country Club class and rich nobility.”

Everyone’s preoccupation with materialism is absurd.

If a man wants to have a patio paved with gold, so what? I am happy sitting on my pressure-treated 10X10 deck sipping Sam Adams.

It is the freedom to sit there and sip which is important, not what the deck is made out of. It is the freedom to aspire to having a deck. It is the freedom to earn money to have a deck. And it is the freedom to own the deck outright, and not having to listen to others judging it every day of your life.

I am poor, but it does not bother me one bit. For I realize that materialism has never brought anyone true happiness. Socialists are too preoccupied with the wealth of others, that they don’t understand that getting wealth is actually a very easy thing to do, if that is what makes your wheels spin. But that is your problem, not mine.

I am content with my freedom, and I am content that every American citizen has similar freedom, whether they take advantage of it or not. Sure there is some discrimination, but there will always be discrimination.

It has not held back Tiger Woods, who plays golf among the country club set and kicks their asses. He is still an asshole, but a rich one. If he had never become that good at golf, but never quit trying, would that make him disadvantaged and discriminated against? NO. Most of us never get good at anything. That is not discrimination. That is reality.

Take your revolution someplace else. We will solve our problems the MLK way. We will minimize the influence of the rich over our lives, and we will pick up those who cannot pick themselves up, not with some dictatorial, socialist, communist government, but by the principle that “all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable right”.

MLK had a dream of this becoming a reality, and it is becoming a reality. But we (Americans) are not interested in killing and burning in our streets, so take your petty materialism and your petty materialistic revolution somewhere else.

The common man really strives for freedom, not materialism, but he does not mind having the freedom to pursue a little materialism, if he feels like it. But taking from others? No, I do not believe the common man approves of that. If a government can take from others, it can also take from me, up to and including my life. That is not the MLK way. MLK was not a socialist or a communist.

Am I the only one on these threads that liked
Eugenio??? Was it ITW that had him banned???
**********************************************

Where did you ever get the outlandish idea that I have the power to get anyone banned? I have no such power. If Eugenio Costa was banned (and I don’t know that he is or is not), then it was his own actions that brought it about. It is solely the decision of the management of Truthdig, and I had nothing to do with it, nor have I been informed of it.

I might merely have observed that he was taking steps that seem to get people banned, but that was simply an observation. Your post is the first I’ve heard of it.

We will solve our problems the Martin Luther King way. Long live MLK, one of the greatest Americans ever to live.

I agree with this statement. It is very difficult to find fault with MLK.’

Back in the day, it wasn’t. King was, of course, hated by everyone who wasn’t pro-Civil Rights, which was probably a majority of White People. But even those on the same side had plenty of criticism. Many quasi-liberal types faulted him for getting “distracted” by his connection of the Civil Rights movement to opposition to the War in Vietnam or to labor union campaigns, for example, whereas the harder leftists faulted him for not being more connected to these things. The Black Power people thought he was too pious about non-violence; they preferred Malcolm X and the Black Panthers. Even those who agreed with his philosophy and policies were sometimes impatient with his Southern-preacher persona. SNCC folks derided him as “De Lawd of Slick” (slick being SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Committee).

After he was killed, he became the perfect magic doll, because everyone could then read what they wanted to into his now abstract, inert form. Even conservatives learned to love him, and now, when politicians need to throw disgruntled Black folks a bone, they name a street after him or something. They love him because he is famous, noble, and above all, dead.

In life, I don’t think King solved many problems. He saw it as his role to pose problems and suggest non-violent, non-destructive ways out of them; but people had to want to solve them first. He certainly wasn’t marketed much as salve or wheel grease in his own time. I think he would have been uncomfortable with his present beatification, although he might have turned it to good use to make yet more trouble.

Wow! This thread got hijacked pretty quickly by three pseudo-intellectuals who can’t seem to make a comment on the actual subject.

1. Socialism blows. Always has, always will. It doesn’t work.

2. The Greeks DON’T get it. Their problems are not caused by “Eeevil coorporations”, but by hard left socialism. It wasn’t coorporations that made the socialist government spend for govt bennies at over 120% for decades thus bankrupting an entire economy.

3. Shenon… the siren isn’t playing a lute, she’s playing a castanet. The one playing a lute isn’t shown in your avatar.

4. Leefeller. RonF is more right than you know. Social programs account of more than DOUBLE (almost triple) what is spent on the Department of Defense. AND just to tame the spin… the two largest chunks of cash that the DoD spends it’s money on… payroll and healthcare.

Since you are a gimme a reference type here is a graph on where the US govt spent it’s money last year. (notice how much of it is national debt and social programs?): upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Fy2009spendingbycategory2.png

Inherit: besides there are ways to wage a revolution thru elections like Rafael Correa, Evo Morales, Cristina Kirshner and Hugo Chavez who are doing revolutions thru elections. Electoral-Revolutions, however we have to be honests and realists. The US electoral system is not open and it’s controlled by corporate interests. So the left should find a way to rise power, but the thing is that there are almost no options for the left to rise to power in USA and all doors are closed”

I focus on your last sentence. Things have changed since Che and Castro. The internet allows communications without relying on purchasing expensive time from the MSM. Any message can get out today, and if it is popular, then it will grow and thrive.

If it does not grow and thrive, then it is not popular with the people. If they do not take to it, and buy into it, then it should be discarded. Because it is the common man who counts in America, not the 5% that you constantly condemn. They, like the poor, will always be with us.

But the common man can reduce the effect of the rich, and he can reach down and pick up the poor. You do not need dictators to accomplish any of that. It is a free society, whatever you say about it. You must build a platform that the common man can climb up onto. You must get the common man to pour out into the streets by the millions, nonviolently petitioning their dissatisfaction with the status quo. Without that, you are pissing into the wind.

But for a minority to violently plot the overthrow of the US constitution, for any reason, is going to be met with massive resistance by the average citizen. My gut feeling is that your calling for Che/Castro-type revolution in America is not going to ever get you anywhere, because we are not interested in that. We will solve our problems the Martin Luther King way. Long live MLK, one of the greatest Americans ever to live. And I am not black, Jack.

“A capitalist is a person who is part of the large-stock owners of the Mega Multinational Corporations, like Wal Mart, Shell, Exxon, Pepsi Cola, General Motors, etc. 90% of americans are not capitalists.
So don’t worry, because in a socialist-revolution we wouldn’t kill you because we would only aim for those in the top 5% to 10% of the corporate capitalist oligarchic class. All revolutions of history have been bloody, and violent. you just have to suck it up, that’s reality, welcome to the real world. And i am an illegalist-revolutionary not a saint”

I think I might have some of those stocks in my 401K. If I sell all my stocks and buy gold, would you spare my life?

My sentiments entirely!
When the invertebrate classes, here in Europe and America, grow some backbone and start taking similar action to that shown by the Greeks opposing the assault on their livelihoods and welfare, in fact the only method that all ‘democratic’ Governments can understand, by making them take the interests of the vast majority of people seriously; these elected Governments could make a start by telling the unelected IMF to go hang, following this up by taking firm control of their financial institutions: then, and only then, can we start to move forward by allowing our Governments to govern in a free and democratic manner, which we have all strived for over so many decades.

“By gerard, May 26 at 7:58 pm #
So shall we think together and talk a little bit
about what various forms of nonviolent change might
look like? What are the underlying principles? Why is
it being tried/used in some places and not in others?
How might it begin? Who might support it?
What might be the most vulnerable aspects of the
present situation where alternatives to violence
might work toward constructive change? To whom could
we turn for guidance? What agencies have had some
experience with it? Where should education on
strategy and tactics of alternatives to violence
begin? Other possibilities, issues, etc.?”
Gerard thanks for a sensible post. (And She, your
photo is fine.)
No violence. Civil resistance. Codepink and Peace of
the Action (Cindy Sheehan) both are welcoming anyone
who wants to join their efforts to shut down business
as usual. Also you have your local Peace Coalitions
as well as Veterans for Peace chapters (don’t have to
be a veteran to support them and organize and
protest!) Following that, the best route is to
outright resist this Empire we have here in this
country until the Fair Elections Now Act is passed,
and with teeth. Once the monolith of Corporation and
State is cracked, we can actually have some
representation for the people. Until then, perhaps we
should not be paying taxes. There is a group with
offices in almost every area that helps people resist
war and empire with their taxes - or lack thereof -
the National War Tax Resistance Committee: http://www.nwtrcc.org/
This is one of the most vulnerable areas we can hit
but obviously the more unified and massive the
movement to do this the more effective it will be.
But when you realize that Corporations get all the
representation and NO taxation, yet the people get
very little representation and the majority of the
taxation, is there any other logical avenue than
resisting until the Fair Elections Now Act is in
place? In addition we need to join Cindy Sheehan’s
efforts to keep the military from recruiting kids -
we need to be countering that message. Also support
the Green party. Even now they are starting to get
candidates close to government seats. In the UK they
are even further along.
As far as style of government, let’s try “Zapatismo”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_Nation
al_Liberation

I agree with Lee and others who would like Hedges to
go a little further with his perscriptions for
action. I love the man and if you look at his wiki he
is hard core, if anyone knows some sh*t it is him.
But is he a writer for LOST or something? Come on
man, give us some more information here. We can’t
just get angry and run around waving a stick.
Resistance is very important but there needs to be
some kind of positive plan. If you see collapse
coming, what do you recommend we do Mr. Hedges? Until
you answer that, or collapse comes, learning how to
survive in small communities while simultaneously
seeking an actual representative govn’t is what I
will be focusing on.
P.S. - Scary about the attack on the site!

Well John Ellis we have a difference of opinion and my opinion
is worth just as much as yours. Your feigned male imperiousness
doesn’t cut it. I’ve already said what will happen to the ignorant.
Evil just like the good is relative. Evil is as evil does. You own your
own evil thoughts. I think terrorists are evil, and the terrorists think I
and all other Americans are evil. There is no objective third party who
will say who is evil who is good. It will be duked out in wars. And it
might not be that the good will prevail, but they might. It will be in
any event, who is better at war.

I do not consider my personal image to be immoral or sinful. I do not
hypocritically thump the bible either although I know the bible very well
coming from a Christian family. You are sanctimonious and if you are
offended by my Greek Siren whose breasts are showing, too bad. You
who because of your poor eyesight imagines what? The twat of the
mythological Siren that is only showing a wing of a bird? That is
pathetic. Do you secretly do that as women walk by you on the
sidewalk too? Who do you think you are anyway? It stays, it is an
image of a historic piece of antiquity, and it will stay.

I suggest that if the image happens to scroll by whilst you are haunting
the forums and you notice out of the corner of your eye the little Siren,
quickly close your eyes and whisper to yourself how chaste you are! If
you think you cannot do even that, then take a hike. I think you are
evil incarnate. What do you know of true morality. You act like a
pompous ignorant callow pervert. Teach your boys and men as well to
keep their pants zipped up and there will be less sex for teenage
delinquents. As far as I am concerned you are a relic from the same
halls of the Christian Inquisition and from the 1500 years of evil
treatment of the women of Islam. You are devolved rather than
evolved. And I wonder what medieval hole you crawled out of?

you state: For your getting nowhere bashing the bad, come show us the good.

You noticed I removed your question mark and replaced it with a period because this is not really a question but an affirmation you are making.

I’m not bashing anyone just laying out the facts and facts are a bitch when they start to deflate your ideological bubble by opening your eyes.

I can’t teach you to be a socialist. For me it is instinctive. It is borne from within. It is a gut feeling. It is not slogans nor is it worshiping the cult of the personality like you and Tennessee do with opportunists and despot like Castro and Chavez.

Henry Wallace warned America about the MIC and
the National Security State way before Ike did.
In fact , before WWII ended,
He knew the Cold War was coming, tried to stop it.

The DLC told FDR , Wallace was too liberal, (that was in
the day when liberal meant something)get rid of him,
and pushed Truman on him, who rose to power representing
mob bosses in Missouri, in fact, they put him on CAP HILL.
This is all very meaningful today since all policy seems
to have come post WWII.
A good read MEETING AT POTSDAM….......
shows the real reason FDR dropped the bombs….

The deficit to GDP in Greece is about 12%, an unsustainable level the will lead to a fiscal collapse.
Compare those levels to the United States where the deficit to GDP is just under 10% and will rise exponentially according to the administrations current ten year budget proposal. An unsustainable level that will lead to fiscal collapse.
It is yet another inditment of failed Keynesian economic theory.

Tennessee
I already posted accurate figure for Chavez’s popularity. I don’t understand why you would distort the facts with a 70% exaggeration. The last election results in 2006 were 62.8 for Chavez. Why would you exaggerate?

Just a year later in 2007 constitutional referendum Chavez lost 51% to 49% showing erosion in Chavez support. Nowhere close to the 70% exaggeration you make.

In the 2008 Caracas Mayoral elections Chavez opposition candidate won by 52.4% margin the mayoral seat. If Chavez was so popular as you claim why didn’t the candidate that Chavez supported win?

Then in 2009 the referendum for the abolition of presidential term limits won by a 54.85% margin. In 2007 it was rejected. Hardly near 70% figure you pulled out of thin air. This referendum made Chavez the new Papa Doc Duvalier of the Americas virtually opening up the possibility for president for life. Hardly the kind of pro-democracy principles I support. Let’s not forget the credible reports of election fraud in 2004.

I’m not insulting Chavez. We’re having a civil discussion of the actual facts and your facts. I’ll give him credit were credit is due and criticism where he deserves it in my estimation. I’m a fair guy and don’t have hero worship for anyone like you seem to have.

Poor John Ellis, you really ought to zip up your….mind.
And take it out of your pants. What was that you said?
“if she had her knee a couple of inches higher, it would be illegal
pornography.” How funny. I mean from just such a small picture
but with such a big bad imagination. In your prurient ignorance
that is not her leg. From waist down she is a bird, what you see is
her wing. Here take a look, if you dare. How about a peek? http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/O21.2C.html

Maybe women are not your thing. Nor is art apparently. This image is
a picture taken from an ancient Greek red figure vase, circa 340 BC,
late classical. She is playing a lute. You could print it out and clip it to
fit in your wallet. Then you can spew hatred towards it in your leisure
moments.

The word “siren"means in Greek “twinkler,” if it is correctly derived form
the rare verb ‘seriazein’ to “to twinkle”...Perhaps it was the ‘twinkling’ or
accelerated beats of the music which seem so absorbing to the Greeks,
much in the way that the musical third-interval, which produces about
twenty beats per second, seemed un-calming and frenzied to 14th
century Church official, who outlawed it from official church use.
Having Greek ancestry, I rather enjoy the Greek rhythms.

THIS IS NOT RELATED TO THIS TOPIC, BUT I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT TRUTHDIG IS ONE OF THE MOST DEMOCRATIC AND SOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE NEWS SITE.

Truthdig.org is a lot better than informationclearinghouse.info commondreams.org dissidentvoice.org and alternet.org In those websites they censor the comments that they don’t like. So truthdig is one of the most pro-freedom of speech sites

John Ellis: Don’t listen to jay he is a sectarian ultra-leftist. He must be from the International Communist Current (ICC), or from The Spartacist League, or from an anarchist movement. He must be an ultra-leftist, and far-leftists are very perfectionists and dont support any liberation struggle in this world. according to them Hugo Chavez is evil, FARC is evil, Fidel Castro is evil and all left-leaning governments of this world are “Bourgeoise nationalist states”

According to them only a pure workers-revolution can save this world. They are very perfectionists, the only believe in “Socialism from bellow”. According to them if a revolution is not based on working classes themselves overthrowing the capitalist-state, they are not authentic revolutions. They hate electoral politics and socialism from above, Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales and Rafael Correa style. In USA they wont support Ralph Nader, Cindy Sheehan, The Green Party, Cinthya Mckinney or any reformist populist option and thats their problem. An excess of perfectionism leads to sectarianism, and to pessimism.

And the USA is at a moment that it cannot afford sectarianism in the left. We need a United-Front composed of people from different ideologies, sects and parties within the progressive sector of USA

By jay1953, May 26 at 10:57 pm #: 70% of the Venezuelan adult voters love Chavez and only about 30% reject him. However if you also don’t like his way of governing, you have the legal right to change him thru electoral process, or you could study political science and create a political party in Venezuela to compete in elections there. But you won’t have so much luck because 70% of Venezuela’s citizens are with Chavez, and only about 30% hate him.

You can yell and insult Chavez all you want, and you can say what ever you want about Hugo Chavez. You can say you are Bill Gates, because your tongue is free, and you can twist reality like you are twisting it by saying that dogs can fly. Your tongue is free.

However where you will fail is in getting another person to rule Venezuela. Because 70% of people in Venezuela are with Chavez and they would deffend the Venezuelas revolution even gainst the devil

Wrong again Ellis. if you wish to maintain your credibility you have to quote accurate verifiable information.

INE is the acronym for Instituto Nacional de Estadisticas.

Well its still not 30% as you originally stated nor is it 26.4%, so you’re still wrong. The statistic I originally quoted are from the same institute that you are quoting from the year 1997 to 2005. According to INE in 1997 there were 60.94% of Venezuelans below the poverty line. In 2005 there was 43.7% below the poverty line. The difference was an improvement of 17.24% which is the figured I quoted you. So I didn’t pull a number out of the air like you did.

In addition if you bother to go to the latest data available from that institute which is for the year 2008 we will find the following data: 46.83% of Venezuelans are still living below the poverty line as of 2008 a slight increase of 3.13% from the 2005 figure of 43.7% of Venezuelans living below the poverty line. So from 1997 to 2008 the net improvement was of 14.11%, not 26.4%. So it did not improve and as far as I know the Venezuelan government stopped publishing many statistics. I wonder why? Could it be that the upward trend of Venezuelans living in poverty along with crime rates has actually increased?

Does the Chavez regime have an issue with releasing information that may be detrimental to its image? It appears so and the Chavez regime is on a campaign to control the message by government controlling the media.

Why has the Venezuelan government in 2009 close 34 radio station and in the process of closing about 200 more? According to government sources they were not following regulations. What regulations? They failed to broadcast presidential speeches. The same for cable televisions stations that were declared national by decree and required to televise the presidential speeches. There was even one that was shut down temporarily, RCTV I believe, and it opened only after they caved in to government demand. There were 23 more under threat of closure.

Anyway, not to get off the subject too much as I stated previously that best indicator of poverty is the crime rate. This what I previously stated which you selectively decided not to try to refute:

The Venezuelan murder rate quadrupled under Chavez. Two people murdered every hour, according to new figures from a nongovernmental organization.

The Venezuelan Observatory of Violence (OVV), whose data is widely followed in the absence of official statistics, says the South American nation has one of the highest crime rates on the continent, with 54 homicides per 100,000 citizens in 2009.

That rate is only surpassed in Latin America by El Salvador where 70 in every 100,000 citizens were murdered last year, the OVV said, citing official statistics from that country.

Higher than Mexico? Hard to believe isn’t it? But numbers don’t lie.

When Chávez came to power in 1999 there were 4,550 homicides whereas in 2009 there were 16,047, the OVV said.

That means every month Venezuela experiences about as many deaths as occurred in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s early 2009 offensive.

With a murder rate of 140 per 100,000 citizens, Venezuela’s capital Caracas has the highest murder rate in South America, only exceeded in the hemisphere by Mexico’s Ciudad Juárez.

By Anarcissie, May 25 at 10:09 am #: How elitist you sound, about sitting in my “Mother’s basement” that sounds like a comment coming from a classist and elitist and is pejorative against poor people. You don’t look like a socialist at all, like a person who likes ideologies in favor of the oppressed, the poors, the homeless and the defranchised. Well maybe you are a progressive-liberal. Progressive-liberals are not socialists, but capitalists centrists-right-wingers. You sound elitist because you didn’t like my idea about a violent revolution against rich people. So i think you are protecting your favorite class (The rich). Not me, the rich can rot in hell, i only care about the poors

Because you claim to be uneducated, do you think that gives you
reason or the right to denigrate others who are, John Ellis?
It is an adolescent reaction to say the least and a weakness of mind.
And to make your day, I am a woman. To ask someone to speak
plain English means you must have a pathetically plain vocabulary.
If you are slow thinking, you probably ought not to be posting on a
fast pace forum such as Truthdig. I suggest you have some reference
books on hand, the least of which might be a dictionary. A set of
encyclopedias could be helpful when confronted with unfamiliar words
and concepts used by even the most ordinary participants on Truthdig.

Fair warning: I have not called you any names nor cast aspersions on
your character. I merely pointed out some possible errors in your
accusations. All comments that show up on these forums are exposed
for common judgment. Anyone can make a comment on the relative
merits of them. You can call me names and denigrate my character but
you take your e-life into your own hands when you do. You have
already stepped over the line.

So for the plainly ignorant: A disjunct, or disjunction, is a sentence of
two parts where the word ‘or’ separates them with the intention that
either one or the other is the case. Unless it is presented that both
halves of the bifurcated sentence are true. A disjunct is how the teenie
tiny word “or” functions. Or perhaps because you are a foreigner very
much like Eugenio Costas, Tennessee-Socialist, or ofersince72, you do
not know the finer parts of the language? Definitively speaking, the
word “or” is used to mean a simple logical disjunction between two
alternatives (either one, or the other, or both); but either…or frequently
implies an exclusive disjunction between two incompatible alternatives.
Please refer to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and the article
Disjunction.

Perhaps you will understand how words, coupled with intentions mean things. For example when you wrote: “Above poster has the intelligence to read the article and know ‘for a fact’ that his above statement is fiction.

No matter how you couch what follows you are still suggesting that “the above poster” is being dishonest.

-

Obviously we will not agree on much. Obviously, as you still fail to tell me how correct I am, you are being, shall we say, disingenuous? Or, if you’d rather, you are simply being lazy by not seeing things my way.

Either way you have no right to make such wild assumptions. I ask again. Is this how you come to all your conclusions? By assuming you know better what others believe or how much reading time is required to see things your way? Is that how you judge contemporary events?

“And so, do I not have a right to call such a statement an
“insincere argument?” - John Ellis referring to GRYM.
NO. It would be proper to say it “seems to be” an insincere
argument, because….” In fact, it may not be insincere, so you
would have to say where it is insincere since insincerity means
falsity, artificial, feigned, pretended…and it does not seem that
GRYM are any of those, but exactly the opposite. Ho hum.

Alleged facts are what appears to be in the eye of the beholder, which
are not in fact facts. They are opinions. That GRYM has an opinion is
also acceptable as acceptable as anyone else’s. He qualified his
statement on May 25 at 10:51am with an “I happen to be aware of
these days…” Obviously voicing an opinion. He did not ask anyone to
agree with him.

I’d like to keep to the bottom line. All you’ve actually written in your last post is that we disagree on the context of this Hedges article. Your simple explanation to this disagreement is in how I must be dishonest. And how did you come to that conclusion? Because I fail to see things your way.

Your logic, not addressing the pretension, is narrow to the extreme.

I believe you have completely mischaracterized Mr. Hedges. And I write that very honestly. You will have to deal with that and re-think why we disagree.

Post Script: If you come to any other conclusion, aside from me being correct and you wrong, you’re lying!

President Chavez has maintained 80% to 90% popularity for over eight years, has won by a landslide 16 national elections in support of his social democracy, has reduced poverty by over 30% and for the first time established a national healthcare system far better then ours.

Isn’t great when some one posts generalizations so easy to refute?

Popularity ratings by country.

84% Álvaro Uribe, Colombia (3/08)

61% Felipe Calderón, Mexico (5/08)

55% Antonio Saca, El Salvador (5/08)

55% Evo Morales, Bolivia (5/08)

55% Luis Inacio Lula da Silva, Brazil (3/08)

54% Hugo Chávez, Venezuela (4/08)

53% Rafael Correa, Ecuador (6/08)

51% Martín Torrijos, Panama (4/08)

49% Álvaro Colom, Guatemala (3/08)

45% Tabaré Vázquez, Uruguay (3/08)

44% Oscar Arias, Costa Rica (4/08)

44% Michelle Bachelet, Chile (6/08)

38% Manuel Zelaya, Honduras (2/08)

34% Stephen Harper, Canada (3/08)

32% Alan García, Peru (6/08)

30% George W. Bush, United States (6/08)

26% Cristina Fernández, Argentina (5/08)

21% Daniel Ortega, Nicaragua (2/08)

5% Nicanor Duarte, Paraguay (3/08)

So is the 80% to 90% popularity just a wild guess?

I would hardly call Chavez’s victories landslides. More like thin to respectable margins. I think you might be confusing Chavez for right wing President of Colombia Alvaro Uribe. So Chavez is doing alright, but not great like you affirm.

As to the poverty reduction it is 12% from 1997 to 2006 according to ECLAC. (you can look up the acronym yourself) So I don’t know where the 30% comes from, is that another wild guess?

Some of the reduction of poverty has been attributed to the oil sector that was nationalized by Chavez. Which is one of the good things Chavez has done. If you take oil factor out there has really been no real sustained growth in the Venezuelan economy.

As in Cuba nationalized health-care in a developing country such as Venezuela doesn’t equate to quality care and access to life threatening care. Overall though for the poor it has been good in the areas of basic primary care since they don’t have to spend money on doctors that they would otherwise spend for simple procedures. So this is a good thing. So I would agree that the Venezuelan concept of healthcare and accessibility is better than ours. I would disagree that the quality of their healthcare is better than ours, our main problem is accessibility.

Here is an unnerving statistic that is a more relevant indicator of poverty and economic prosperity: The Venezuelan murder rate quadrupled under Chavez. Two people murdered every hour, according to new figures from a nongovernmental organization.

The Venezuelan Observatory of Violence (OVV), whose data is widely followed in the absence of official statistics, says the South American nation has one of the highest crime rates on the continent, with 54 homicides per 100,000 citizens in 2009.

That rate is only surpassed in Latin America by El Salvador where 70 in every 100,000 citizens were murdered last year, the OVV said, citing official statistics from that country.

Higher than Mexico? Hard to believe isn’t it? But numbers don’t lie.

When Chávez came to power in 1999 there were 4,550 homicides whereas in 2009 there were 16,047, the OVV said.

That means every month Venezuela experiences about as many deaths as occurred in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s early 2009 offensive.

With a murder rate of 140 per 100,000 citizens, Venezuela’s capital Caracas has the highest murder rate in South America, only exceeded in the hemisphere by Mexico’s Ciudad Juárez.

So shall we think together and talk a little bit about what various forms of nonviolent change might look like? What are the underlying principles? Why is it being tried/used in some places and not in others?
How might it begin? Who might support it?
What might be the most vulnerable aspects of the present situation where alternatives to violence might work toward constructive change? To whom could we turn for guidance? What agencies have had some experience with it? Where should education on strategy and tactics of alternatives to violence begin? Other possibilities, issues, etc.?

John Ellis is so theatrical
“By John Ellis, May 26 at 6:39 pm
Leefeller?“I love absolutisms, they make my day, ?especially if one
can learn how to be ?absolute with a straight face!”

Liars, liars are all those who believe in things absolute, ?or so s
says relative thinkers such as Leefellers….

LIGHT
?But the absolute truth is,

(1) All things are either fact or illusion, absolute ?truth or absolute
fiction.

(2) All things are either harmless or harmful.

(3) In a fair and just society, all things are a ?crime or perfectly
legal…”

Neither (1), (2), or (3) are absolute truths, they are disjuncts. Disjuncts
disqualify to be truths. It is either or. If one enjoys disjuncts, read
Kirkegaard.

The next ones are hypotheticals, hence disqualify to be absolute truths.
Truth is not hypothetical, truths are tautologous, they are truths.
Reality cannot be one truth or another truth.

(4) Evil is an absolute crime, for it is to enrich yourself upon the misery
of another.

(4) postulates evil for oneself, and crime is by fiat, decree of the society
in which a crime is so called. Absoluteness is untenable.

(5) Darkness is absolute evil, as darkness is a liar’s ?pretense of good
hiding an intent to enriched upon ?your misery.

(5) is also hypothetical since no one has experienced darkness as
absolute evil, and darkness has more meanings than the chosen narrow
one, but it does not touch on the absence of light hence is not even
darkness.

(6) Light always forces the darkness to give way. ?This is absolute and
when one refuses to except ?the light take care, for they are attempting
to lock ?you in darkness.

(6) Light does not force anything, light exists simultaneously with
darkness, without the concept of darkness there would be no concept
of light and visa versa. The advice about the light is garbled nonsense
and incoherent.

So Tennessee-Socialist, Eugenio Costas, and ofersince72 are all really
John Ellis? Your tri-colors are showing. LOL

French Revolution. Failed.
The result was Napoleon. Today France is a social-democracy and social-capitalist country. More a result of the aftermath of WWII and the Marshall Plan than the French Revolution.

Mexican Revolution. Failed.
The result was Fox and Calderon and a capitalist country with extreme poverty, extreme divisions of wealth, extreme inequalities of justice and a country that is extremely violent on the verge of total chaos.

Russian Revolution. Failed.
The result was Stalin and his agrarian reforms that is estimated starved to death over 30 million people mostly in the Ukraine. It also gave us Khrushchev and Brezhnev and the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. In 1991 it totally collapsed as a catastrophic failure. Politically, economic and social Gorbachev and Glasnost was probably the only positive things that came out of that disaster.

Chinese Communist Revolution. Failed.
The result was Mao. Gave us Tienanmen Square massacre and today in spite of professing a communist government it has converted the Chinese into a capitalist economy with extreme inequalities and the creation of new social and economic classes similar to the late 1800s America, sweatshops and everything.

Cuban Revolution. Failed.
The result was Castro which has maintained a repressive regime for over 50 years through the oppression of the Cuban people making Castro the longest living dictator in history. The Castro Revolution has totally imploded economically which has resulted in waves of rafters hitting the shores of the US in search of economic freedoms. For the Castro’s undoubtedly it has been a total success for the Cuban people it has been a disaster.

Socialism has to be democratic.
Democracy is rule by the people.
Socialism has to be rule by the people.

Free market fundamentalists definition of socialism (as perceived by privileged capitalist):“true socialism is the realization that most humans desire something for nothing and will always take all they can take” At the expense of the wealthy?

As opposed to a socialist definition of capitalists (as perceived by socialists):“true capitalism is the realization that most humans are motivated by greed and will always take all they can take” At the expense of the poor?

There is the moral dilemma. Where is the middle ground? Social democratic principles and social capitalistic principles.

The way each extreme defines the other is an obstacle. Socialism has to be defined in a purely American context. Each country can have its own unique definition based on their history and culture. It cannot be defined in a box. The principles may be similar but the application has to accommodating to the idiosyncrasies of the population. America needs to redefine socialism on purely American terms to accommodate Americans. It cannot be defined by for example Venezuela or Cuba.

In America, based on its history and diverse cultures, socialism cannot exist without the rule of the people. In other words democracy.

John Ellis, - “Surely an insincere argument by one who dearly loves the insincere rich.”

-

Mr. Ellis, you have not the ability nor the right to protest a posters sincerity.

You have no idea what I think on the so-called Rich. You would have no way of judging my sincerity on the things I opine. Is this how you come to your conclusions? By imagining how and what others MAY believe? Not what they actually write or say?

If that be the case I should assume you are as dishonest as you believe others to be. You never actually believe in the things you perceive.

All things being equal, you don’t think that higher prices on Chinese goods would help US manufacturers? You don’t think higher pay for Indian IT centers and call centers would slow the transfer of jobs there? Come on. Effectively, if that were to happen, goals of seeing the euro as a reserve currency would suffer precisely because monetary policy in Europe would loosen and revert back to some earlier period in Europe, such as the 1990s. Many citizens would prefer this but I imagine the bankers wouldn’t.

By ofersince72, May 26 at 6:13 pm #
SHE , did you do that ???
Don’t be ridiculous! I’d check out your communist brethren
who I heard was kicked off the site! They are the only ones
who are mean spirited enough to do that!

How stirring, as usual, Hedges’s passionate prose can be. After you come home from working long days to further the agendas of corrupt public and private institutions, that feels good to read. Hedges indulges us in our righteous indignation.

Would that shriller and shriller denunciations by eloquent, crusading firebrands could alone put the world situation aright.

Unfortunately — again, as is Hedges’s wont — he fails to explain why the Greeks get it and Americans do not. We can surmise that that’s the work of propaganda, an education system geared to corporate indoctrination, the corporate media, and so forth. But Hedges doesn’t let us know for sure what he thinks it is. Greeks, after all, have propaganda and corporate media, too.

Hedges stops way short of pointing out organizing strategies that would bring the Greek level of political and social awareness he admires to the U.S. populace. The implication is that articles that inform and inflame are enough to pique popular discontent and steer it to realization.

Then we read “...until the permanent war economy, and the mentality that went with it, was defeated”: Hedges is telling us that someone other than Hedges and fellow whistle-blowers is going to defeat the permanent war economy and its mentality.

Quote:Hello my dear friend, i think that you are a bit wrong on Venezuela. Venezuela’s poverty levels are a lot lower with Hugo Chavez and his Bolivarian Socialism of the XXI Century.

By golly Tennessee, I did a bit of online research and it seems that you were right. I found a link which showcases the modern fleet of school-buses that the fearless anti-imperialist leader has provided for his Bolivarian revolutionary alumni school children. It is a sign of true revolutionary progress.

Eugenio Costa does not make me sick, it is all the f’n scrolling I
have to do to get past his incessant blather that is dizzying. Crime
in Itlie. How many innocent men, women, and children did Stalin killwithout drones? Mao? Ho Chi Min?

”By JOhn, May 25 at 4:35 pm #?(Unregistered commenter)
The Greeks (and soon the rest of socialist Europe) finally ran out of
other people’s money. Socialism never works for very long.”
But socialism often works qquite well killing millions in a very short
time.

John Elis: There are no absolute truths just interpretations of truths. What i mean is that it is real hard to come up with the right formula to change USA. USA has too many problems, USA is too big, and too divided. Most americans also have 2 jobs (regular jobs and domestic jobs), which leads to physical tiredness in the majority of people.

So my theory about change in America is that the leaders of the left are the ones who should unite and create a United Front as a viable electoral option for 2012.

But we got a problem in the left, that problem is that the left is too poor, and electoral politics requires millions of dollars for campaign and to spread the political program to the masses, thru TV, newspapers, etc.

Maybe a socialist and altruist bourgeoise people could help, like Nader who wrote a book abou how the rich could save USA

Inherit: besides there are ways to wage a revolution thru elections like Rafael Correa, Evo Morales, Cristina Kirshner and Hugo Chavez who are doing revolutions thru elections. Electoral-Revolutions, however we have to be honests and realists. The US electoral system is not open and it’s controlled by corporate interests. So the left should find a way to rise power, but the thing is that there are almost no options for the left to rise to power in USA and all doors are closed

My friend, i think that divided we wont get anywhere. I hate violence, we all hate violence, i am moralist. However like you said you know martial arts, if there is a socialist-revolution in the USA against the monopoly capitalist class (5% oligarchic corporate elites), they won’t be peaceful, and they are the ones who will use military violence against anti-oligarchic rebels.

So don’t blame me, don’t condemn me for loving violence, blame and condemn the ruling class, the exploiters in a revolution.

Besides you are accusing me of violence, of murdering people like in the movie Minority Report where the cops accussed people before committing a crime.

I think that what USA needs is a United-Front as a third party option to compete in the 2012 elections

Many times words are a damn nuisance. It’s always “either/or”, which tends to send thinking off into one of two directions and no space left between for new, more creative results. Violent rebellion or doing nothing? Doing nothing is NOT nonviolent action or resistance.
Nonviolent resistance is understanding violence, where it comes from, why, and how to respond in some more positive ways that, instead of emphasizing hate, fear and anger, present and suggest creative alternative responses that try to disarm the opponent, not injure or kill him/her.
Nonviolence appeals to the MUTUAL desire of opponents to solve problems together, not to extinguish the opponents. It is often unpredictable, requires tremendous courage to risk everything—even one’s own life to find humane ways to cure the sickness of the soul that is violence and killing. It demands faith in the possibilities of understanding, courage and non-violent countervailance. It requires training and the exercise of a great deal of spiritual resolve. The earlier it comes on the scene during crisis, the better, because violence metaticizes quickly.
The reason violence always rears its ugly head in times of crisis is that it it so easy, so thoughtless, so habituated. Like a kneejerk response.

Bad habits can be broken—but it ain’t easy. “Kissing your captors” or “saintly placating” have nothing to do with it.

The War on Terror will go nowhere. And I see the US going the way of maybe voting in a right wing strongman like a Pinochet or Park of South Korea. So I am in agreement that socialism will not take root in the States.

There is a split between people who want socialism and people who oppose and want right wing capitalism, but remember that both camps don’t know what socialism really is.

But in all of this, no one has mentioned who the next superpower will be? China? The EU? If and when this collapse happens, where can one immigrate to that will be OK?

The teabaggers are so full with internal contradictions that they make Reagan’s coalition look like a wonder of unity. A large part of the storm troopers of the teabaggers is consisting of interests tied to local, small town petty bourgeoisie upper middle class elites who are (justifiedly so) seeing Wall Street and the large capital centres in the urban regions as a threat which would alienate them from “their rightful share” in the exploitment.

A large part of these groups want to actually (even if they don’t understand it) weaken the United States by de-centralising it and putting power back into the hands of more reactionary local elites. Other groups just want to return it to the status quo of the Bush years.

I couldn’t see a Pinochet type guy. But I could see a former military general donning a suit and running for office and once elected tightening the country bit by bit. I am thinking of more of a junta in Brooks Brothers ala Park Chung Hee from South Korea.

If the US collapsed, I think socialism would be the first thing on the table. The majority of Americans recognize that capitalism is the problem, and would support a socialist government

I am so jealous and awestruck when I watch documentaries about Venezuela and they show a surprisingly conscious working class that can beautifully articulate their position and struggles in Venezuelan society

I just don’t get what is wrong with many people in America. Why do they identify so much with the bourgeois? I admire the libertarian spirit that this nation exudes and the cynicism toward state and sometimes corporate power, but why does it always translate into more capitalism, better capitalism, or pure capitalism?

Every time some revolution pops up like the one in Jamaica, Hedges can say “The… (fill in the blank country).... get it. Then some of the idealists can run on down there and show them what for.

The sad thing is every time there is some sort of revolution someplace the true story is never told. Sort of like 90 percent of what we read and hear about. How the hell does one know the facts from the friction (propaganda)?

You know I think the worlds problem has to do with excessive fornication, maybe poor people should cut back on doing what comes natural and do more of what comes unnatural? Maybe not such a good idea then they might all run out and become Catholic priests or worse Mormens.

Well if there were less poor people in the world we would not have any of these problems, but I suppose that would work if there were less rich people in the world also and then there is Octomom!

I keep hearing things are getting better, I sure as hell cannot tell from what is going on here in Hootowl. The way things are looking from here, 2012 seems like it may be coming a couple of years early, the good News is Palin will not become president and the bad news is I still have to listen to her until then,.... seems like a draw.

By Spooky-43, May 25 at 9:52 pm # : A capitalist is a person who is part of the large-stock owners of the Mega Multinational Corporations, like Wal Mart, Shell, Exxon, Pepsi Cola, General Motors, etc. 90% of americans are not capitalists. I bet that you are not part of the owners of Wal Mart, Shell or Exxon. I wish i was too, but most of us are not so lucky.
************************************************

So, as I’ve suggested before, T-S came to the USA to get rich. If he was rich, he’d be HAPPY to be the same, exact capitalist “pig” he wants to execute.

So, as I suspected, T-S is ONLY into Marxism because HE didn’t get rich when he hoped to and now wants to STEAL those riches because he couldn’t earn them.

We’ve seen that in EVERY socialist state: The guys at the top are no different than robber barons. They where simple military tunics, or deliberately ill-fitting suits, but they are EXACTLY the same as the denizens of Elite Socialism we see in the US (George W. Bush was a beneficiary of it—a total incompetent, yet, because he was part of “the few” his fortune was made for him).

By Inherit The Wind, May 25 at 7:50 am #: if you are scared of fighting for your rights and rebellions, i think that what you should do is lift weights. Weight-training increases testosterone levels, anger and manly virtues. I am not scared of a revolution in the USA, but i think you are. So what you need is weight training and a testosterone-booster
*****************************************

I pity you for your lust for violence and slaughter. I don’t find your advice at all valuable. I have a black belt in mixed martial arts, so I’m not “afraid” of fighting. I’ve clocked opponents and been clocked by them, but that was all part of training.

But every TRUE practitioner of the martial arts learns that you don’t fight just to fight and to assuage your petty ego. You don’t kill people because it’s “cool” and they happen to stand on the other side.

If you wish to change society and you wish to claim a TRUE moral high ground then you MUST exercise every non-violent option available to you. To do anything less makes you as low and as evil as those you would guillotine.

If you get your wish, then you are just as much a war-monger as George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and all those bastards who lied us into war in Iraq, and lied us OUT of an honorable finish and exit from Afghanistan. Why does YOUR desire to rush to an unnecessary civil war make you any better than they are.

Since you hate this country so much that you are unwilling to peacefully seek to change it, I suggest you go back to your former Soviet state and advocate violent revolution there. Oh, I forgot—If you do that in Russia, Putin STILL can make you disappear. Much safer in Tennessee.

Anarcissie,- “when did you become strictly non-violent? I was under the impression you approved of some war or other. No?”

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I have lived my life respecting others while consistently speaking and acting against violence. I have done more than talk.

With that said; perhaps you’ll understand when I write that I will hesitate only so long to cave your skull if you prove to be a threat. And if that threat was leveled against you, say after 18 months of being held against your will and crapping in a bag, you would literally try to kiss me after I’ve killed your captors and announced that I am an American.

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You write your high-minded notions regarding Western oligarchs and hegemony. The many evils of the United States. You feel pretty good about yourself and how you have a good bead on how things work. That’s all well and fine.

I on the other hand, using violent means, actually save lives. A notion I’m fairly certain you will not allow yourself to fathom.

If you are such fan of O’Reilly, the master spinner and bullshitter, then you have a serious problem, and I guess, most likely, that you watch Hannity and listen to Rush Limbaugh, then you have a serious affliction.
Yes, Tenessee-Socialist has a serious affliction too.

By Spooky-43, May 25 at 9:52 pm # : A capitalist is a person who is part of the large-stock owners of the Mega Multinational Corporations, like Wal Mart, Shell, Exxon, Pepsi Cola, General Motors, etc. 90% of americans are not capitalists. I bet that you are not part of the owners of Wal Mart, Shell or Exxon. I wish i was too, but most of us are not so lucky.

So don’t worry, because in a socialist-revolution we wouldn’t kill you because we would only aim for those in the top 5% to 10% of the corporate capitalist oligarchic class.

All revolutions of history have been bloody, and violent. you just have to suck it up, that’s reality, welcome to the real world.

Clerico-noble rulers have told us for at least 7 k yrs by deeds that never ever will all people rejoice equally.
And by word and deeds told us over and over again that if u try to destroy the system of rule imposed on servant class, u will be either killed, exiled, tortured, or incarcerated.

And even jesus, or s’mone who put words in his mouth, had proclaimed the etern verity-justice that we shall always have poor among us.
Why wld their god want that? They don`t explain; because mad priests need poverty badly for own ends: prestige-dictatorship and easy living. tnx

I agree w/you GERARD. It is the best approach. My point was that violent evil is often disquised as reasonable non-violence. Murder is murder and it often happens without recognition. How Saintly are any of us raging ego’s at this site? Isn’t it true that there are powers and forces alive inside us brown rice and meditation can’t placate? Well—after all,it is a journey. But where does this blood and rage soaked road lead? Getting off the road may change and comfort the individual but will it stop the murder and save the human race from apocalypse? Was Col. Kurtz enlightened or was just another damaged victim of his own humanity? If tin whistles are made out of tin, what are fog horns made out of?

I like your posts buddy—the damage is deep and the wounds are raw—a little prayer and a lot of healing is in order. I like to believe that “—love is the only engine of survival—-”, but I swear man sometimes,”—-there ain’t no light nowhere—”.

The whole EU has to bail out their insolvent neighbors…and he calls it “pillaging”. I’d call it more like bailing your drunken friend out of jail for the
last time.

If you’re going to criticize international finance, at least do your readers the
service of pretending you even understand the most simple elements of it.
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CEOUNICOM,

Before you criticize someone’s knowledge of international finance, you , yourself, should have some knowledge of international finance and about what REALLY is going on, which you DON’T.
You see, all the bail-out money are, eventually, will be going to the bankers, and all the paying will be coming out,eventually, from the average citizens, whether in Greece , the rest of EU and USA, either in the form of taxes or as cut in salaries, pension health care and social services or by inflation. Most of the money was borrowed to speculate in real-estate and associated financial instruments, and not to be spent on social programs as MSM bullshitters claim.
The role of governmnets in this fiasco is nothing but an intermediaries and as collection agencies which are collecting from the people and giving to the bankers.
What is happening in Greece is a mirror of what happening here and that will happen in many countries.
You will have a lot of fun and hopefully you will understand and see the light. We are just in the beginning of the show!!

Calculating defense spending can be very creative; some say the actual cost of defense spending is 50% of the budget. The Iraq War alone cost 3 trillion. The bush tax cuts cost the treasury 3.9 trillion. Our debt to GDP ratio is not higher than it was in the late 40’s. Rolling back the Bush tax cuts would go a long way to solving out debt problem. Rolling back to the Clinton era would be good, and rolling back to the Eisenhower era would be even better. Ending the wars, cutting back on government welfare to business, making sure corporations pay their fair share of taxes, and cutting back sharply on defense spending, would solve our debt problem. Taxing the super rich will have only two powerful outcomes. First, our debt will be eliminated, and second, the super rich will be eliminated as a sub-group, both of these outcomes will be beneficial to the people of the world.

Don’t even suggest that tax cuts have been good for any but the richest Americans, the data is in, and the results are painfully obvious.

The people of Greece know what happened, and so do Hedges and many others, including those who created and profited from Greece’s economic problems. Greece’s debt to GDP ratio was better than ours.

It’s all about greed and criminal activity on the part of Wall Street Financial cliques. They think they’re smart in their sociopathic wheeling and dealing, but their days are numbered, their greed will kill the golden goose.

Also don’t think about bringing up your infantile concepts of “fairness.” The super rich have been exploiting and squandering the wealth and resources of the entire planet, and that is what is not fair.