Skepticism

EVENTS

This should not be a surprise

Any other fans of the facebook page, “I fucking love science”“? Probably. There’s over 4 million of us, there must be a little overlap.

The author of that website casually ‘revealed’ her identity on twitter recently (in quotes, because she hadn’t hidden it and didn’t consider it a major issue), when a whole bunch of her fans suddenly noticed…hey, she’s a woman!

Elise Andrew, an English blogger living in Canada, posted a link promoting her Twitter feed on her I Fucking Love Science Facebook page, which has more than 4.2m fans.

"I got Twitter! I figured it’s about time I started exploring other social media. If you’re on there, can you Tweet me some science people worth following?" Andrew said.

The post provoked an onslaught of comments discussing her gender and looks. "F.ck me! This is a babe ?!!" wrote commenter Can Durace. "holy hell, youre a HOTTIE!" wrote Douglas Pistone Linares.

You know, where I work (in Science!) well more than half the students are women, and with our recent new hire, more than half the biology faculty are women. Heck, a majority of the computer science faculty are women. We picked every single one of them on the basis of brains and talent, and that’s what deserves notability, which is also the case of Elise Andrew.

Why should anyone be surprised when a science enthusiastic turns out to be a woman? Those comments say a lot about the biases of the commenters, that they assume it would be unusual for a scientist to be female, and that somehow their ‘hotness’ should be a factor in the appreciation of science.

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If I’m trying to find a bright side, it’s that this exposes a lot of people to the “new face of science”, wherein scientists aren’t just old white men in labcoats with crazy hair (although they can be that too). Yes, there’s a lot of dopily sexist comments, but hopefully on some level, people are taking in that enthusiasm for science isn’t exclusive to one type of person.

In case it’s not clear, I’m not in any way endorsing the sexism, but rather hoping that something sinks in with some of the commenters on some level.

Yeah, I think I sorta knew all along a woman was behind that Facebook page… but no big deal. There are a lot of science pages on FB run by women. I think ‘Drunken Science’ is, too (which is mostly about the science behind fermentation). A lot of women certainly post to it!

I find myself wondering — curmudgeon that I am with low expectations of my fellow humans — how many of those 4.2 million fans will unlike the page over this. Because, you know, she’s obviously been lying when she shared out all those fantastic pictures that everyone thought at the time were awesome and amazing.

(I’ve been a fan for a while, and have every intention of staying: I still think those posts and pcitures are awesome and amazing and look forward to many more.)

Point well taken, and I appreciate your passion on valuing all people equally. Regarding: “and that somehow their ‘hotness’ should be a factor in the appreciation of science”: I’m sort of thinking that the poster meant that in a positive way, as sort of a joke. Biases are bad, but Ms Andrew is doing us all a favor by helping to break down those stereotypes, and presumably it’s working. And I’m inclined to cut this poster some slack.

I just looked at the faculty directory for my computer science department, and there are three women. Out of 25 full-time and adjunct faculty… only three are women. That’s not at all surprising to me, but it’s more than a little disappointing.

Point well taken, and I appreciate your passion on valuing all people equally. Regarding: “and that somehow their ‘hotness’ should be a factor in the appreciation of science”: I’m sort of thinking that the poster meant that in a positive way, as sort of a joke. Biases are bad, but Ms Andrew is doing us all a favor by helping to break down those stereotypes, and presumably it’s working. And I’m inclined to cut this poster some slack.

Biases are bad and Ms Andrew isn’t the problem. So there’s no need for a but…. Why do you assume it is a joke? A joke on what? Making fun of the sexist attitudes? Doubt that.

It seems this guy wanted to be cute and flirty, and it comes off as a complete asshat.

She had a simple request, and looked to expand her social media exposure. And the response? Assholes. Biases are bad, and these people acted like brain-dead sexist jackasses.

I haven’t looked at the entire faculty at my university where I just started my BSc to see the gender ratio, but I can certainly say the students are definitely more women than men, at least in the subjects I’m doing (though I’ve heard there’s something like 2 females in the geology class total)

harvardmba, I agree. PZ is one of them cultural elites who are out of touch with the common little peoples, like Mitt Romney, Herman Cain, the Koch brother, and those poor poor investment bankers. *wipes tear from monocle with a peasant*

Back on topic, wow, the 50% of the population on THAT side of the line can do things that the 50% of the population on THIS side of the line can do? That unpossible! It’s almost as if my penis doesn’t actually help me do any science!

There’s a bizarre disjoint between the public perception of “scientists” (and engineers and mathematicians) and the reality. An exercise I do with new trainee teachers every year is to ask them to draw a picture of a maths teacher. Bear in mind that these groups are almost invariably 50 -60% female, that the people who taught them maths in school were (statistically) 60% female and the people who taught them maths in primary school were over 85% female. Despite all this, the overwhelming majority of these trainees (of both genders) will draw a man.

There also people in the world who think women (nice ones, at least), don’t fucking swear.

*GASP!* I thought you were nice!

….

For those of you who are willing to cut some slack to the responses she got that were “complimenting” Elise on her looks: I seriously doubt that you’d do the same if the responses were commenting on how “ugly” she is. To paraphrase John Cleese, “Appearance don’t enter into it.”

As it is, her love of science has taken a back-seat to her appearance. Those “compliments” will turn sour right quick as soon as she says something that they don’t like, like say, I don’t know, “Hey, guys – your comments make me uncomfortable and I want you to stop” or something similar.

And as more and more women become prominent in science, sooner or later one will be involved in a high profile academic scandal.
I bet dollars to donuts that the idiots of this dog forsaken earth will argue that this will be evidence that women can’t do science.

I love IFLS. She keeps me rocking on what’s new and exciting, and it’s a great source for sharing how science is alive and kicking down misconceptions every day. I honestly thought, as often as IFLS posts, that it was run by a consortium. Elise is a hero!

No, you don’t “work in science” P Zed. You work in the ivory tower, nice and safe from the realities the rest of us face daily. You know, like accountability.

Funny how you, who are accountable, wouldn’t last one year in his job at his pay scale. When I went from academics to private industry, my pay went up by half, and my hours dropped by a third. Which is why you sound illogical with your sniping. Why don’t you show some accountability, and stop trolling those who are actually doing something, unlike you, who can only complain. Must be a character fault.

I’m not sure how someone can say “Once again we see that women are only valued for their beauty.” This guy was reading the blog anyway, which obviously means he found it of value. And probably considerable value, because there’s only so much time in the day and we all chose what we read. That was when, given his attitude, we have to presume he assumed the author was a man. I will agree that saying “and your beautiful” WAS over the top. I know I wouldn’t consider saying that. This guy did show that he had a bias that a good science writer would be a guy, or in any case he clearly communicated that. I totally get that. Perhaps he shouldn’t have said anything, although to the extent that his comment draws attention to Ms Andrew’s blog and the fact that it IS written by a woman, that’s a plus towards breaking down the stereotypes. (I’m going to check it out, and I like guys so I’m guessing her appearance won’t have a lot of influence on me.) The gay rights movement discovered long ago that visibility breaks down the stereotypes. The more people come out, the more people realize that, hey, there are lots of gay and transgendered people, women, people of color, etc who happen to be great at X. Coming out is surprisingly important for progress to be made.
I guess there’s a couple things to consider: intent and “damaging but not intended effects.” This one did the later, for sure. And obviously we should all be aware of things we do that have that effect, and I’m all in favor of striving for not doing that. This guy doesn’t strike me as an elevator rapist, though. I just think it’s best to pick your battles, and not worry about everything that gets sent out in an impulsive internet comment.
I think this guy sort of meant to say “I read your blog, but didn’t know you were a woman. Now that I know that: cool.” He used sexist language, and that’s not appropriate. So yeah, not good, but given it’s overall rank on the scale of evil, there’s probably other battles more worthy of fighting.
As a gay guy, I’ve heard lots of things that are inappropriate. And while it’s good to work for eliminating those in society because they do have hurtful influences on young minds, I think it is worth considering whether the person’s heart is basically in the right place and not overreact.
On the other hand, I think PZ’s post does point out the “damaging secondary effects” issue. I do keep that very much in mind in my daily life. And it’s good that we all strive to.

Does anyone know if that is common among biology departments these days, or if PZ’s U makes a special effort to hire and promote women? (Different than hiring them or promoting them because they are women, of course.) I ask because while I know that the hard sciences are more gender balanced than my field (mechanical engineering is still somewhere in the teens for % women, which is an improvement over when I was in school), I didn’t realize it had achieved parity. I’m dubious, but if this is common, that’s amazing!

Yea, he doesn’t. He sounds like a sexist jackass trying to hit on a woman.

He used sexist language, and that’s not appropriate. So yeah, not good, but given it’s overall rank on the scale of evil, there’s probably other battles more worthy of fighting.

First, I’m not worried about him. He acted like a jackass, but I don’t know the guy. However, his jackass comment is related to our culture, the culture in which woman’s worth is tied into her looks, where people are comfortable making sexist statements. The problem isn’t him. We aren’t fighting him, we are trying to talk about how women are often reduced to their looks.

As a gay guy, I’ve heard lots of things that are inappropriate. And while it’s good to work for eliminating those in society because they do have hurtful influences on young minds, I think it is worth considering whether the person’s heart is basically in the right place and not overreact.

Intent isn’t magic. I don’t know if a person’s heart is in the right place or not. It can matter as it might lead to them learning. But they won’t learn if we stay silent. I’m not saying we jump down every person’s throat when they fuck up, but I am saying that we call it out. Which is why I think these guys acted like a bunch of jackasses. I don’t think they were trying to be sexist assholes, but

The thing is, I do believe that “hot” girls are generally less interested in science. Here’s why:
Once the girl becomes considered “hot” by the males, those males will do everything in their power to get in her pants. Before long she spends all her time turning down invitations and scraping various bits of shit off her shoes, and therefore has no time to learn science. She might have been the next Einstein but we’ll never know.

Even if someone’s intent is good, it’s important for that person to understand that the effects of his or her words are not what the person had in mind. How to do that other than speaking up against inappropriate comments?

Holy shit, seriously? The moment you realise it’s a girl, you start complimenting her looks and throw all that serious science awesomeness away? I hate to ask, but are you geeks that have suddenly fallen in love and forgotten that the content is more valuable than who writes it? Now, don’t get me wrong, compliments are compliments, but is that really what you all ought to be focussing on?

…ahem.

That said, I’ve a (barely) comparable experience related to this. Back in the day I had long hair and was often mistaken for my mother (I have since grown a beard and lost my hair), and the worse (yes, not worst) part was that as my first name is generally thought of as a girl’s name in English-speaking countries, I got some flirty emails… from a site where you could post your own sci-fi/fantasy stories. The worst part was realising they were judging by the looks, not how good the stories were. I suppose a part of me should also be offended by how they started calling me a fag. Obviously I misled them.

The thing is, I do believe that “hot” girls are generally less interested in science. Here’s why:
Once the girl becomes considered “hot” by the males, those males will do everything in their power to get in her pants. Before long she spends all her time turning down invitations and scraping various bits of shit off her shoes, and therefore has no time to learn science. She might have been the next Einstein but we’ll never know.

The thing is, I do believe that “hot” girls are generally less interested in science.

I do believe that people who make up random offensive shit are more likely to post it on a comments thread. Here’s why: when they make up random shit in real life, everyone walks away from them in disgust, and so they have a lot of time and nobody to talk to.

Imagine, for a moment, that the woman was not conventionally attractive in some way. I don’t care much for the idea, and I find it frankly offensive, but it’s true that society values a certain body type, facial structure, hair color/length/style, and so on over others.

The responses to her wouldn’t be “oh, it’s neat she’s a woman scientist” or stuff of that sort. The responses wouldn’t be “hurr, she’s hot” or god forbid some kind of rapey chatter.

The responses to her would be “it makes sense that you’re so ugly” or “nerdy girls are ugly” or some other vile thing like that. There is a horrible double standard when it comes to women – it doesn’t matter what they do, as long as they’re pretty while they do it. And in almost a worse thing, if she is a conventionally attractive woman, she better damned well be pretty all the fucking time or she’ll get harrassed and insulted over that (see: Beyonce at the Super Bowl photos, “beach body” tabloid pics, and such things.)

Let me add to the craziness of that double standard. According to my wife, males are still considered sexy even when they’ve reached fifty or so. Something to do with the wrinkles and grey beards. Men are obviously sexy even when they gain a few pounds and some wrinkles and start looking like Santa Claus.
Her words, not mine. I don’t subscribe to that idea, but she stresses constantly about her appearance, taking time to look as pretty as possible for the outside world via make-up, well-fitting clothes and a fashionable haircut. Somehow that double standard has been ingrained into modern Western culture so badly it hurts my brain.

I was surprised, but only because it was one person instead of many. I didn’t really pay it much mind, but I suppose it’s better that it’s a woman than a man because the people that follow the posts, hopefully, if they have any, will have their biases challenged. That’s good.

@teejaykay,
If I may generalize further, I would say Western society, or at least mainstream US society (however we choose to define it) is far more accepting of the idea that men of different ages, body types, coloring, and so forth are attractive or different reasons. It’s far rarer to see the same claim made about women. Young men can be perceived as attractive whether they are muscular or not, because popular culture accepts that both tr bulky, athletic look and the slender, “pretty boy” look are attractive to different people. Athletic women, especially for sports that are dependent on a lot of muscle mass, are derided as “butch” or “manly”, as though it is a bad thing for a woman to be like a man.

This manifests a bit differently for middle aged men and women. A middle aged man can be described as attractive in a dignified manner. Female politicians, for example, are regularly mocked for their perceived ugliness.

Hear hear. I remember from a couple of years back a young tennis star player who decided to have a breast reduction because it hurt to play — she was good even with that heavy mammary tissue, but the majority of pictures taken of her were… um, let’s say, concentrated on said region. It was big news, apparently! So again, emphasis on her body and appearance — not on her skills.

This is something that used to drive me nuts in comments on Jesus and Mo. Various male commenters would comment on toons that featured the barmaid by saying she’s hot, they lust after her, she must have long red hair, etc etc – a character who is never visible at all, but is just a speech balloon. Sigh.

I guess I should be grateful I’m not hot. I never would have invested in myself and, in doing so, made valuable contributions to the world of science if the doodz had been asking me on dates I had to decline the whole time!

(That’s me being sarcastic. I actually think I’m pretty hot. Being a scientist doesn’t appear to have had any bearing on men pursuing me nor has time spent saying “No thanks” or “Sure” prevented me from working and studying effectively.)

This is something that used to drive me nuts in comments on Jesus and Mo. Various male commenters would comment on toons that featured the barmaid by saying she’s hot, they lust after her, she must have long red hair, etc etc – a character who is never visible at all, but is just a speech balloon. Sigh.

Good grief, they do? So, someone finds her hot for her mind, and their reaction is “I want to see a crudely-drawn cartoon of this non-existent woman, to validate my boner”. The human psyche is a strange, strange thing.

This is an insensitive idiotic “but(t) post” that probably shouldn’t be made but sometimes we just have to just because.

I totally and completely agree with pretty much ***everything*** about the feminist movement. And I ***know*** I am an I’m as much an insensitive clod as apt to unthinking, unreflected privleged sexism as anyone else. And I confess I haven’t read the thread as I really don’t read comments here very much. Tedious really, for the most part.

But isn’t it about time that when women, especially in the once more male dominated professions, get these remarks, that they just kick the guy in the balls and be done with it?

HA! When this post went up, I confirmed that IFLS had 4.2 million likes. It is now up to 4.3 million.

Take THAT, haters.

I am one of those who’ve “liked” the page since PZ mentioned it. I’d always seen shares of it. I think I suffered partly from what carlie mentioned up above in #19, and attributed it to a man or group of men rather than a woman/women. And ashamedly I may have also thought at a deeper level it was a man’s doing because of the passion evinced by such emotive language. Damn, these biases are harder to check internally alone, and that is part of the good coming from it. I’m hoping I’m not rare in this and that there were quite a few more who mindfully examined the reason for their ‘shock’ rather than just mindlessly skipping over it.

I follow “I Fucking Love Science” on FB and always thought it was more than one person posting – never much paid attention to their gender which on reflection is probably because she never posted pictures of hot beary guys. I do think it’s important for the progress of women in science to come out for visibility sake. But just like any coming out scenario, please do so in a safe manner because there are so many a-holes around.

OK, some comments show a bias. But then, not all beautiful women are smart. Not all smart women are beautiful. Theses are two different things. So, if you want to express your appreciation of a woman’s beauty and her wits, what choice do you have other than mentioning both? I don’t see anything wrong with it. Many comments are very friendly, seemingly more expressing a “See, a woman can be smart and hot, told you so all the time” attitude than surprise.

if you want to express your appreciation of a woman’s beauty and her wits

Why would she be interested in your assesment of her value ? Why does she or anyone else have to be subject to your opinion about her worth to you for either her “beauty” (read: fuckability) or “wit” (read: look at me being all enlightened and deigning to recognise that some of the ladybrain creatures can actually string a sentence together !)

what choice do you have other than mentioning both?

Maybe you could not mention either ? Women are not livestock at market – nice shiny coat, good teeth and a placid temperament. And I’m willing to bet good money that you don’t go around expressing your “appreciation” of the beauty and wit of your male colleagues and aquaintances in this way.

If I’m trying to find a bright side, it’s that this exposes a lot of people to the “new face of science”, wherein scientists aren’t just old white men in labcoats with crazy hair (although they can be that too).

Jeez, is it still 1965 out there?

harvardmba:

You know, like accountability.

That’s rich, coming from a drive-by troll. And one who proudly trumpets his degree as if he thought it said something about his intellectual acumen rather than marking him as a corporate tool.

Here’s the thing, folks. This post, and many others like it, are about systemic problems. They’re about multiple responses from multiple people and the aggregate effect thereof. They’re NOT about what ONE guy said, or the minutiae of how he said it, or what he really meant in his heart of heart of hearts. So speculating about whether or not someone is or isn’t an…I’m not going to say the e-word here or the r-word, is beside the point.

I too objected to some slut-shaming jokes on IFLS a while ago, and for a long time have seemed to only be able to ‘share’ subsequent posts, not ‘like’ or comment. I’m not sure if I’m on a moderation list, I don’t know how these things work.
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As for the Elise being a WOman thing *gasp* – women don’t need you(generic) guys randomly coming up to them and expressing your admiration or disgust variously for their appearance. We just don’t care. Seriously. And you have the potential to really screw up our day because of that need to express your(generic)self. On a train, or walking down the street, or in the middle of a conversation with someone else, or while reading, or even just after delivering an academic lecture – your feels about our appearances either way, good or bad, are simply Not Relevant.

crocodoc – absolutely no one cares about your boner’s opinion. When the topic of conversation is absolutely fucking nothing to do with physical appearance we don’t want your “compliments”; we don’t need your “compliments”; we don’t give the slightest damn about your boner’s opinion.

You don’t actually need to say a thing out loud, just because your brain thought it out.