The Reverend Fred Phelps Sr., the fiery founder of a small Kansas church who led outrageous and hate-filled protests that blamed almost everything, including the deaths of AIDS victims and US soldiers, on America’s tolerance for gay people, has died. He was 84.

Daughter Margie Phelps said Phelps, whose actions drew international condemnation, died around midnight on Wednesday (local time). She didn’t provide the cause of death or the condition that recently put him in hospice care.

The so called church was basically his extended family. The sad thing is that such a small sad bunch of people could generate international media coverage when they did one of their relentless protests.

Phelps is a disbarred lawyer who physically abused his wife and children, and even got excommunicated from his own church eventually. Scarily in 1992 he got 31% of the vote in Kansas in the Democratic primary for the US Senate!

It will be interesting if his own funeral is picketed by members of his former church.

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This entry was posted on Friday, March 21st, 2014 at 10:00 am and is filed under United States.
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I remember seeing a tv article about them… the saddest part was his teenaged granddaughter was about to go off to Uni and she was going to go in one of their “god hates fags” shirts to spread the word.

She seemed pretty fervent about it all, but there was also clearly a hint of doubt there. I hope living with good people showed her the light and she got the hell out of all that god hates shit…?

The sad thing is that such a small sad bunch of people could generate international media coverage …

There will always be a small number of idiots doing idiotic things who don’t pose any great threat to others and can quite safely be ignored. The reason these particular idiots got media coverage is partly because people foolishly went to court to try to silence them, but mostly because the media really want to create the impression that these people represent the views of all conservatives.

“The reason these particular idiots got media coverage is partly because people foolishly went to court to try to silence them, but mostly because the media really want to create the impression that these people represent the views of all conservatives.”

Partly yes, though I think part of it was Phelp’s habit of protesting at the funerals of military vets killed in war.

NO true conservative would ever do something like that. It was disgusting in the extreme.

Rest assured, I don’t think that anyone believed that this creature was representative of mainstream US centre-right figures, or even religious social conservatives. Obviously I have issues with his nauseating homophobia, but the ratbag in question also picketed the funerals of *nongay* slain US combat casualties from the Iraqi and Afghan Wars. I’m all for free speech, but what about the grieving families of those young men and women? Phelps also received support from Saddam Hussein to protest against the United States and actually went to Baghdad with his odious sect before the Iraqi War and the deposition and subsequent execution of the murderous tyrant in question. Even when Saddam was responsible for the poison gas slaughter of about thirty thousand Northern Iraqi Kurds when he used chemical weapons against the inhabitants of Halabja and Salmanniya in 1988? Yeah.

Parking my distaste at the misanthrope in question at the kerbside, here’s my obituary for Phelps:

“I’ve heard his excommunication was a fiction so that his church wouldn’t have to cough up his health costs while he was dying.”

His excommunication would be consistent with their beliefs. I think I recall Shirley (or one of her daughters) explaining that if someone died before the rapture, they were not one of the elect. If that’s their dogma, they must believe that Fred wasn’t worthy.

I’d like to think that Westboro Baptist provides a cautionary tale that would cause people to think about how they treat the “other”. I’d like to think…

Christ, he and his sickening cult were even going to picket the funerals of those kiddies massacred at the Sandy Hook shooting tragedy. I almost wished I still believed in hell. Unfortunately, the cult’s still there and survived its misanthropic founder’s demise.

“mostly because the media really want to create the impression that these people represent the views of all conservatives.”

I think much of the outcry (particularly amongst conservatives) is to distract from the fact that church preaches a christianity that is biblically consistent. Many conservatives don’t disagree with the message, just the medium – it’s okay to tell gay people that they are going to hell, as long as you don’t do it outside a military funeral.

“Religion – I wonder if anyone has ever done some calculations – Harm done by it, versus positive achievements, or how about lives lost due to religious belief, compared to lives saved?”

“Religion” is too general a term to have any concrete meaning. All human beings are religious by nature. Virtually every political ideology you can name, including “secular” liberalism, has religious underpinnings.

“I actually wonder how familiar he was with the NT, or whether he actually believed its teachings.”

Seeing as the concept of hell (at least the eternal torment version – the version preferred by Westboro) was introduced by Jesus, you’d have to think he had a passing understanding of the New Testament.

“is to distract from the fact that church preaches a christianity that is biblically consistent.”

I would disagree with that. Jesus said that the mark of His true disciples was their love for one another and for the “other”. He also says we should concern ourselves with our own sins and shortcomings, not other peoples.

I don’t think homosexuality was or is part of God’s ideal for marriage, but Jesus was always vastly more concerned with what was in peoples hearts rather than external religious obedience. A secular homosexual who spends his/her life trying to be genuinely loving towards others is closer to the Kingdom than a Christian who spends theirs condemning others sins and trumpeting their own supposed righteousness.

From my article on the ratbag, here’s Phelps stated theological basis for his activities:

In theological terms, Phelps describes himself as a “Primitive Baptist”, which means that his church has a strong religious separatist orientation and refuses to co-operate with others, even other fundamentalist churches, in trying to convert people to fundamentalist religious beliefs. Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church also practise a set of beliefs known as the “Five Points” of conservative Calvinist fundamentalist Protestantism. They include belief in the “total depravity” of humanity; predetermined “elect” status for those that God foreordains for “salvation;” ‘limited atonement’, which means that Christ died to ‘redeem” only this “elect;’ irresistable grace, which means that fundamentalist conversion of the eventual ‘elect’ is preordained; and “perserverance of the saints”, which means that the “elect” are “fated” to continue in their path. Taken together, these beliefs may help explain the pressure-cooker intensive cultist and sectarian subsequent behaviour of the late Fred Phelps and his entourage of offspring, grandchildren and others within his sect.

Therefore, Phelps was a particular form of hypersectarian. Although a fundamentalist Baptist, he didn’t even break bread with others from the same theological tradition.

“A secular homosexual who spends his/her life trying to be genuinely loving towards others is closer to the Kingdom than a Christian who spends theirs condemning others sins and trumpeting their own supposed righteousness.”

That’s not what Jesus says –
John 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. and
John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die”

With the first, you could make an argument for the postmodern position – that you don’t need to believe, you just need to be Christ-like, but the second seems pretty clear – the bible says that you need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven (I’m assuming you’re substituting “secular” for non-believer – I wish people would stop doing this, being secular is irrelevant to your religion, or lack thereof).

I find the Westboro Baptist church distasteful, but they do demonstrate the problem of deriving your morality from religious texts.

Yes I get what your saying. But the question about belief in Jesus was how did Jesus explain how this belief in him works out in a persons life? Can a person believe in Jesus without being consciously aware that that is what they are doing, by the way they choose to live? Jesus’ parable about goats and sheep is instructive. The sheep turn out to be those who loved their neighbors, but had no idea they were following (believing) in Jesus, and in fact they express surprise that that is what they were doing. The goats are those who were sure they were following Jesus, but failed to love others.

( I agree that secular is a poor choice of word for what I was trying to say)

Apparently, the Westboro cult’s theological traditions also prevent commemoration and mourning of members individual deaths, so they won’t be at their founder’s funeral. And there’s an intensive debate going on within LGBTdom about retaliatory protests at his funeral. Personally, I don’t think we should be stooping to their level.

I can tell you that I do not believe that Jesus is divine, and yet I think I do live a good life. Jesus had some good things to say, and some bad things, but they’re irrelevant to my understanding of good and bad. I don’t think it’s appropriate to claim someone is following Jesus when they advise you that they most definitely are not, and that their actions arise from an entirely separate moral code.

As for Five Point Calvinism being inconsistent with scripture, I think you’d find similar disagreements across all Christian sects: transubstantiation, torment/annihilationism, prosperity doctrine… You can justify many things using the bible (and many have). I’m just annoyed about the attempts by some to distance themselves from the medium, while still promoting the message (and to be clear, I’m not talking about Christians as a whole, I’m talking about those Christians who would like homosexuals to be treated differently because they love someone of the same sex).

Surely there is a difference between knowledge and understanding. You might have memorised the entire Bible and be able to cite scripture to suit any particular argument, but this doesn’t imply an understanding.

And as for the comments about fundamentalist/conservative evangelical rejection of Phelps, it is worth noting that several such organisations actually *applauded* Phelps/Westboro’s ban from entering the United Kingdom:

An alliance of six British religious groups (the Baptist Union of Great Britain, Evangelical Alliance UK, Faithworks, Methodist Church of Great Britain, United Reformed Church and Bible Society-funded thinktank Theos) made a joint statement on February 19, 2009 in support of the government’s decision and condemning the activities of the Westboro Baptist Church saying, “We do not share [Westboro’s] hatred of lesbian and gay people. We believe that God loves all, irrespective of sexual orientation, and we unreservedly stand against their message of hate toward those communities”

I’d be interested to see an analysis of where the hate filled comments on KB come from: the Godnutters (as you call them, in a hate-free way of course) or the Atheists.

😆 LOL, that’s a good one, you’re really funny MANKed.

For a minute there, I thought you were smearing all the atheist commentators on this blog with an insinuation that what gets discussed on here is even on the same PLANET as those WBC cnuts haranguing grieving families at servicemens’ funerals with their bizarre propaganda.

But then I thought: no, surely not, even MANKed is not that delusional..

” I don’t think it’s appropriate to claim someone is following Jesus when they advise you that they most definitely are not”

Oh well. Agree to disagree.

“and that their actions arise from an entirely separate moral code.”

I’m not talking about moral codes. Moral codes/rules are just attempts to work out the pragmatics of morality for everyday life.

Love is not a moral code.

“I think you’d find similar disagreements across all Christian sects”

And much agreement.

“You can justify many things using the bible (and many have).”

And you can justify anything with anything; Democracy, communism, liberalism, conservatism, poverty and so forth have all been used to justify both good and bad. That does not mean that truth cannot also be justified and found in the world, or for that matter, in Scripture. Everyone chooses an authority, whether it’s human rights, or “reason” (always conveniently defined), or fairness, or social justice or being “pragmatic” or democratic majorities.

Scientific ignorance– I wonder if anyone has ever done some calculations – Harm done by it, versus positive achievements, or how about lives lost due to scientific ignorance, compared to lives saved?

Belief in fairies – I wonder if anyone has ever done some calculations – Harm done by it, versus positive achievements, or how about lives lost due to belief in fairies, compared to lives saved?

Comfortable stupidity – I wonder if anyone has ever done some calculations – Harm done by it, versus positive achievements, or how about lives lost due to comfortable stupidity, compared to lives saved?

@RRM
No, nasska was putting the KB Godnutters, as he offensively likes to call them, into the same pew as hate-filled Fred.
My observation was simply about whether there are more hate-filled comments from atheists on KB than there are from believers.
What do you reckon?

The story about the good Samaritan in Luke makes it abundantly clear who the good guy was. Jesus gets the expert in the law to acknowledge that the Samaritan was the good guy and tells him to behave likewise.

If you want to know what Jesus thought of people like the Levite and Priest who passed on the other side, you could read about the seven woes in Matthew’s gospel.

Happy to guide you to chapter and verse in Luke and Matthew, if you are interested.

You actually think that it’s intellectually honest to tell a Muslim who (you would judge) is living a good life, that they are actually following Jesus? An Atheist? A Hindu? Doesn’t that seem both arrogant and patronising to you?

You are talking about moral codes. Moral codes are what help us decide how we should live our lives. Yours is derived from your interpretation of the message of Jesus. Mine is not.

You’re right, Love is not a moral code (I never suggested it was), but letting people love who they love is consistent with my moral code.

“And much agreement.”

I’m sure that, theologically speaking, many conservative Christians agree with much of the Westboro Baptist Church’s teachings. Which is why the disagreements are the focus of this conversation.

“Everyone chooses an authority”

I don’t. To do so would be to idolise a logical fallacy. I suspect I make decisions about morality the same way you do, I simply acknowledge that my inspiration isn’t divine.

Lance

I’m not. Nor am I ignoring the other good statements attributed to Jesus. I’m just not ignoring the bad as well. I wonder how you are able to determine which of Jesus’ commandments to follow, and which to ignore:
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.”

Not even slightly interested in getting into a long pointless to & fro with a religious semanticist over the “correct” interpretation of a two thousand year old bed time story.

If you want to keep the score on who hates who on KB comments then go for it. If you find yourself getting bored with your new hobby consider that the God Dodgers are only reacting to a bunch of zealots who are determined to impose the wishes of their imaginary friend on everyone.

The sad thing isn’t that he garnered so much media bandwidth: the sad thing is that when he “only” targetted the gay community the mainstream media didn’t give a damn. Once he started protesting the funerals of soldier—well, in ‘Merka that’s worth fighting for.

He and his ilk tormented gay people for over two decades—and the world shrugged for much of that time. Until he protested Matthew Shepard’s funeral. The combination of torture murder and Phelps’celebration of Shepard’s death proved to be a turning point.

“…..Until he protested Matthew Shepard’s funeral. The combination of torture murder and Phelps’celebration of Shepard’s death proved to be a turning point….”

The Sheppard story of gay hate and torture has turned out to be false – he had been/was in – a gay relationship with his drug dealer – who was also his killer. Straights and gay hate were no where near Sheppard or his place of death. The story was conspired by gays and/or their supporters.

Phelps was a heretic. He preached that God hates fags, when God is Love. He dared to judge deceased individuals as being “in hell”. Nobody is “in hell” yet, since the Judgment has not taken place. Instead of praying for the lost, he picketed them. Phelps thought death was a good thing. He saw death as a part of God’s justice. This is a false doctrine, “For God did not make death, neither does He have pleasure over the destruction of the living.” (Wisdom 1:13, Deuterocanon).

I take no pleasure in Phelps death. Death is the separation of soul and body. It is a tragedy. If, as a Christian, you were prepared to judge him, but can’t bring yourself to pray for Phelps’ soul, you’re quite literally no better than he is.

Against my better judgement, but I’m intrigued as to which teaching suggests that “praying for Phelps’ soul” would be of any benefit for Phelps at this point?

The dead are yet to be judged (Revelation 20:5). They are in Hades as disembodied souls awaiting their resurrection and final judgment. Therefore they can be interceded for (2 Maccabees 12:40-45, Deuterocanon). Their judgment is not instantaneous or predestined, as many Protestants believe.

Are these prayers going to change the outcome of the upcoming “Judgement” ?

Who can say? But the prayers of a righteous man availeth much! (James 5:16)

“You actually think that it’s intellectually honest to tell a Muslim who (you would judge) is living a good life, that they are actually following Jesus? An Atheist? A Hindu? Doesn’t that seem both arrogant and patronising to you?”

No. But I would clarify that I did not say anything about living a good life, but about the degree of love for neighbor.

Personally I believe in the Triune God, not a sky fairy. I don’t even know what a sky fairy is, or why some people keep bringing it up. I’m not sure anybody believes in fairies, other than the odd Icelander.