tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post3109285709820810947..comments2016-12-07T07:55:41.658-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: The resurrection of the flesh -- the most commonly denied dogmaFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53691961632255503682011-01-31T19:40:05.783-08:002011-01-31T19:40:05.783-08:00@Sotherfiredhorror,
I seem to recall that St. Thom...@Sotherfiredhorror,<br />I seem to recall that St. Thomas holds that the soul, when separated from the body, is able to maintain consciousness only by a special divine illumination -- whereby intelligible species are infused upon the soul, in a manner analogous to that according to which angels know naturally.<br />While on earth, God gives knowledge to the human soul (ordinarily) through natural sense experience; in the intermediate disembodied state, the soul receives knowledge from God by means of this infusion of knowledge (which is beyond the nature of man, but not contrary to it).<br /><br />I hope that this helps! Peace to you.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45611090062288340612011-01-31T16:52:15.413-08:002011-01-31T16:52:15.413-08:00Thank you for a solid affirmation of the resurrect...Thank you for a solid affirmation of the resurrection of the flesh. The earliest Christians were so convinced that materiality is a part of human nature that some, such as Tertullian (under Stoic influence on this point) posited a material, bodily soul. Aquinas, as you correctly point out, accepted a hylomorphic theory of human nature so that the soul-body composite is the human person. I wonder, though, if it makes sense on St. Thomas&#39; account of human nature, to state that the disembodied soul is conscious in the intermediate state. If images are a necessary condition for human consciousness due to reliance on the senses, and a soul cannot form images, how can it be conscious of anything?southernfriedhorrorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13456896922257391928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-873854319746449812010-11-11T06:36:52.731-08:002010-11-11T06:36:52.731-08:00Yes, we must always be ready to give a reason for ...Yes, we must always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in us.<br /><br />I do not think, Magister, that “<i>profunda</i>” should be translated as “foundations” in the quotation from St. Anslem above. <i>Profunda</i>, in fact, usually means the opposite of foundations or fundamental truths.Peregrinushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00366226263431558600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86650756947218483072010-11-10T08:57:50.173-08:002010-11-10T08:57:50.173-08:00@Reginaldus...You write, &quot;it is a good thing ...@Reginaldus...You write, &quot;it is a good thing for us to try to understand and to attempt to penetrate more deeply into the mysteries.&quot; This immediately called to mind St. Anselm&#39;s words in Cur Deus Homo, &quot;Sicut rectus ordo exigit ut profunda Christianae fidei credamus, priusquam ea praesumamus ratione discutere, negligentia mihi videtur, si, postquam confirmati sumus in fide, non studemus quod credimus intelligere.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Just as the right order of things compels us first to believe the foundations of the Christian faith before attempting to discuss them rationally, so it seems to me negligence if, after we have been confirmed in the faith, we do not apply ourselves to understand what it is we believe.&quot;Magister Christianushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09087270710114392727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-34776212410012107492010-11-10T07:41:01.936-08:002010-11-10T07:41:01.936-08:00If God can create Adam from the dust of the earth,...If God can create Adam from the dust of the earth, he can surely raise a person from the dead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-27314996275937257252010-11-10T05:28:42.024-08:002010-11-10T05:28:42.024-08:00I firmly believe in the resurrection of the body. ...I firmly believe in the resurrection of the body. God loves us beyond our understanding. God&#39;s love is not limited only to the soul (some spiritualism), but includes the body He created. God&#39;s love is wholistic. God loves us body and soul. Furthermore, since the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, this shows God&#39;s wholistic and total love for everything created in His love. Does not the Incarnation also reveal the Resurrection.<br />Nothing absoultly nothing, not even death itself, can hinder God&#39;s love for the whole (body and soul) of every human being.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40292026099995778752010-11-09T23:37:24.478-08:002010-11-09T23:37:24.478-08:00@fisherofmen3,
I think you are quite right to affi...@fisherofmen3,<br />I think you are quite right to affirm the omnipotence of God, but do be wary of &#39;fideism&#39;...it is a good thing for us to try to understand and to attempt to penetrate more deeply into the mysteries... St. Thomas is a great example of this -- faith desires vision, so true faith in this life must seek understanding.<br /><br />Regarding Adam&#39;s rib...St. Thomas says that, in the resurrection, it will belong to Eve and that God will create a new rib for Adam...he has some good reasons for holding this; see the supplement to the Summa, q.80, a.4, ad 2.<br />Peace!Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42778544785995298802010-11-09T23:32:49.030-08:002010-11-09T23:32:49.030-08:00@Bernardus,
Yes, the dogma of the Assumption is ve...@Bernardus,<br />Yes, the dogma of the Assumption is very important here too! <br />I wrote an article on Mary&#39;s Assumption for August -- http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/08/where-was-mary-assumed-to.html<br /><br />Also, regarding the Transfiguration and the bodies of Moses and Elijah, I wrote on this way back in Lent 2010...perhaps you will find it interesting -- http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/02/transfiguration-of-christ-part-ii.html <br />The main point here is that Elijah&#39;s body was not glorified and Moses may not have even had his true body...see the article for the discussion.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-65694921885277355412010-11-09T16:44:16.728-08:002010-11-09T16:44:16.728-08:00Dear Fr. Reginaldus,
I am finding this fascinating...Dear Fr. Reginaldus,<br />I am finding this fascinating and enlightening. There just seems too little time for one as me to study and comb all for further enrichment. None-the-less, this brings to mind some points for consideration and thought (perhaps more my thought and consideration than others).<br /><br />--the Dogma of the Assumption (Mary assumed to Heaven body and soul).<br />--the Transfiguration (&quot;30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli&#39;jah,31who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.<br />32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, and when they wakened they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.&quot; RSV-Catholic)<br />--Elijah taken up in a whirlwind (&quot;11And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli&#39;jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.<br />12 And Eli&#39;sha saw it and he cried, &quot;My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!&quot; And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces.&quot; RSV-Catholic)<br /><br />I do not begin to question the Great Mystery of the Triune God, so whose to say we will or will not be resurrected in a material body like our own if not our own.<br /><br />Thanks Fr. Reginaldus for encouraging us to thought. You are in my prayers always, please pray for me.Bernardushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09343171766154713726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48439834700603790322010-11-09T15:33:03.590-08:002010-11-09T15:33:03.590-08:00One more point, God simply thought the world into ...One more point, God simply thought the world into existence with more creativity and detail than we are capable of understanding.<br />Take God out of the box, and He will reveal His Omnipotence, in spite of our opinions.<br />Think I&#39;m going to listen to the <br />6th graders, they keep it simple, and scriptural.<br />Amen?fisherofmen3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78401387580882688692010-11-09T15:23:21.896-08:002010-11-09T15:23:21.896-08:00Adam was created from dust (Gen.2:7)and, &quot;all...Adam was created from dust (Gen.2:7)and, &quot;all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air.&quot; (Gen.2:19)<br />However, Eve was made from a rib God took from Adam, and, all mankind, with very few exceptions, as well as the beasts of the field and birds of the air, are born, not created from dust. (Gen.2:23)<br />Michaelfisherofmen3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91644206029228553822010-11-09T15:12:17.542-08:002010-11-09T15:12:17.542-08:00I mentioned Michael Rea of Notre Dame earlier. Hi...I mentioned Michael Rea of Notre Dame earlier. His site is: http://www.nd.edu/~mrea/. If you look in his articles, you will find quite a few having to do with the issue of material constitution.Magister Christianushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09087270710114392727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52987611832325106062010-11-09T15:07:41.079-08:002010-11-09T15:07:41.079-08:00@Dan...good point! This is a great use of current...@Dan...good point! This is a great use of current scientific discovery, which, if it be true, cannot be at odds with anything revealed by the One Who is Truth.Magister Christianushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09087270710114392727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71766298689806153872010-11-09T12:44:03.046-08:002010-11-09T12:44:03.046-08:00Assuming that each person has a unique DNA code to...Assuming that each person has a unique DNA code to inform the cells that make up his body, a bodily resurrection would require only the person&#39;s DNA code and the material of the body would be uniquely his, whatever the source of the material.Dan Buckleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-49681822368404941002010-11-09T11:51:27.103-08:002010-11-09T11:51:27.103-08:00My 6th graders kow that each human being is a uniq...My 6th graders kow that each human being is a unique unity of body and soul. They know that Jesus saves the whole human being, not just the soul. Therefore they conclude that the body must be resurrected to complete our salvation.kkollwitzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17691145638703824456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-35340134732020782922010-11-09T11:48:35.973-08:002010-11-09T11:48:35.973-08:00Peregrine, you are quite right...it is modern gnos...Peregrine, you are quite right...it is modern gnosticism which is the great enemy of this doctrine.<br />I am amazed at how many people think we will become &quot;angels&quot; when we die! Who wants to be an angel? It would mean losing our identity!<br /><br />I do find it interesting, however, that St. Augustine credits Plato with affirming (against Porphyry) the necessity of the body for the joy of the soul. A truly brilliant move!<br />(cf. City of God, book xxii, chapter 27 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120122.htm )<br />This really confounds those gnostics who look to Plato (like the neo-origenists).Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45442298996958470512010-11-09T11:39:56.481-08:002010-11-09T11:39:56.481-08:00@ Richard, Are you saying that the &quot;cannibali...@ Richard, Are you saying that the &quot;cannibalism objection&quot; or the &quot;dust objection&quot; is paltry, or both? <br />St. Thomas is willing to discuss the objections; so I do think it is important to talk about them.<br />However, I certainly agree with you that the omnipotence of God is easily able to overcome any and all difficulties.<br /><br /><br />@Magister Christianus, Thank you for pointing out the &quot;logical limits&quot; of divine omnipotence (which, as you say, are not any real limits at all).<br /><br />This is especially important to keep in mind when we discuss the nature of the resurrected body -- it is logically impossible for a body (even a glorified body) to be a spirit. This is an error some will make -- thinking that because the body is raised &quot;spiritual&quot; it is no longer &quot;physical&quot; or material. However, in order for a body to be a body, it must be material and physical -- even if it surpasses what we now recognize as the ordinary laws of nature and physics.<br />The materiality of the resurrected body does not come from any lack of power in God, but simply from the logical necessity of what it is to be a &quot;body&quot;.<br /><br />Blessings to all.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-58963268546530291732010-11-09T11:33:16.230-08:002010-11-09T11:33:16.230-08:00@Nick and anonymous, St. Thomas was indeed well aw...@Nick and anonymous, St. Thomas was indeed well aware of decomposition...he talks about the &quot;ashes&quot; which remain...<br />And we should be clear about this -- it is not so much that the dust in the grave and only that dust will be returned, rather God can re-make the body out anything which had at one time been the body (old hair and nail clippings, for example); moreover, he can even add matter (as in the case of a small child who dies).<br /><br />Peace to you both.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-65138646995979376512010-11-09T09:59:55.928-08:002010-11-09T09:59:55.928-08:00This is brilliant stuff! Thanks for sharing it! ...This is brilliant stuff! Thanks for sharing it! As Richard said above, nothing is impossible for an omnipotent God. Of course, omnipotences is regularly taken to mean within certain logical limits. It is no slight to God&#39;s power to say that He could not create a square circle. This is a logical and semantic issue and has no bearing on His omnipotence.<br /><br />As for the cannibal scenario or the aborted baby, I think Aquinas&#39; reasoning is quite helpful in a modern discussion. There are some who pose these objections merely out of perversity, but most who offer them, I think, are seriously trying to question and understand. Aquinas is reasoning in the area of material composition, something Michael Rea at Notre Dame has published some articles on in the last few years. Again, great stuff!Magister Christianushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09087270710114392727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-82422192516048343482010-11-09T09:08:38.416-08:002010-11-09T09:08:38.416-08:00The main and most serious objection to the resurre...The main and most serious objection to the resurrection of the body arises from a disparaging of the goodness of the body and of its importance to human nature, and not from perceived difficulties with re-constituting and perfecting a decomposed body.Peregrinushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00366226263431558600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-60255977821114409152010-11-09T04:21:24.277-08:002010-11-09T04:21:24.277-08:00Somehow I doubt that the Almighty God, who created...Somehow I doubt that the Almighty God, who created everything from nothing, would be hindered by the paltry objections raised here.Richardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42553847738888320182010-11-08T17:55:19.983-08:002010-11-08T17:55:19.983-08:00Nick, we were made from dust and to dust we shall ...Nick, we were made from dust and to dust we shall return. I see no difficulty in being resurrected from dust. I suspect people knew about decomposition in Saint Thomas&#39; time. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-6977977255972771612010-11-08T17:31:29.912-08:002010-11-08T17:31:29.912-08:00I think all the objections against the resurrectio...I think all the objections against the resurrection are quite silly when you look at death. The body returns to dust. What could be a greater objection to a resurrection than that total decomposition of the body? But I don&#39;t know if people knew about decomposition in Saint Thomas&#39; time.Nickhttp://blogsofasoul.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com