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Matt Whitmore: How’re we doing everyone, it’s Fitter Food radio episode 107 and it’s me, Matty-boy Whitmore with the one and only Keris Marsden.

Keris Marsden: How do?

Matt Whitmore: How do. Guys I hope you are all well and enjoying the podcasts so far. Today we want to talk a little bit about …

Keris Marsden: Social stress.

Matt Whitmore: Social stress?

Keris Marsden: Social stress.

Matt Whitmore: So stress, social health?

Keris Marsden: Social health maybe, yeah.

Matt Whitmore: So-

Keris Marsden: Do you remember at school you had personal and social education, did you have that?

Matt Whitmore: I don’t remember that, no.

Keris Marsden: We just whinged and whinged about it and we were like-

Matt Whitmore: Why, was it boring?

Keris Marsden: I can’t even remember what it was.

Matt Whitmore: Speaks volumes.

Keris Marsden: Yeah, exactly.

Matt Whitmore: So as I say, I’ve never heard of it but maybe-

Keris Marsden: I can tell you a little bit of something from my physics, I can tell you something from my maths, not a lot these days, something from my bio … that quote, you know, you remember? Little things from school, Pythagoras’ theorem all that kind of stuff. PSE, nothing. Like I can’t remember a single piece of information, it was so personal, the teacher didn’t tell us. I can’t tell you, it’s personal.

Matt Whitmore: I can’t tell you, I can’t tell you. Just sit there in silence for the whole period. What inspirated this subject, Keris? ‘Cause this isn’t what we planned to talk about on this episode.

Keris Marsden: No, we hadn’t, we had loads of ideas and then we focus in, but I suppose generally a couple of things really. Every time I have a session with a client you’re always kind of trying to get to know that person, you look at everything, we’ve talked a bit before on the podcast about things like purpose, fulfilment, social isolation and we talked loads about the value of relationships but the reason I wanted to, kind of, just do almost like an overview of the topic social health is ’cause I really struggle with certain cases that I’m working on and obviously observing as well in clinics when you can kind of see that the environment and the relationships are holding someone back from getting healthy, and there’s loads of ways that can happen and it does become a physical thing, it does affect your physiology. I know there is research there and there is science to this, that when we change how we think it completely changes our biochemistry, so they say your beliefs become your biology and there’s different phrases that kind of explain how it happens. Or we talk about what’s called the neuroendocrine immune system, but you can literally … but you know this. You can think in a certain way that you can then start to feel your heart rate change. Like you can start to-

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, yeah.

Keris Marsden: Yeah. That is, you know, things like anxiety. Yes, it’s driven my hormones but it came first from the thought-

Matt Whitmore: The thought process, yeah.

Keris Marsden: And your perception of that situation. So when you step back for a second, okay we’re kind of getting our head round all of that but we’re still not, kind of, applying it to what we do on a daily basis. We still keep just getting up every day, going to work, spending time with the same people and never stepping back and kind of questioning all of those different things. And some of them are really big to change, like you know, your career or where you live and who you’re with are big things to change. But there are little things that you can start to question now, and one is your social circle.
And the reason that I’m saying this is because I see a lot of people who are exhausted and not supported and trying to do too much, and one of the reasons is that their social circle doesn’t support their health. And this could be because it’s … I mean we’re going to talk about loads of different reasons why this might be, but I want people to start just stepping back a bit more and going, I spend a lot of time with this person or I give up a lot of my time or prioritise this person and their needs but is it the right thing to do? And it’s not that we’re going to say, right you need to start slashing your social circle in half. Well maybe you do, like I really think some people do need to scale back a little bit. Because when you go on your health journey it becomes … your priorities change, your values change a little bit, what you like doing changes. So there is that kind of natural evolution where you’re going to migrate towards people that maybe go to gyms and things, but-

Matt Whitmore: But I was saying, ’cause I do believe that everyone kind of has their, I suppose you could say, friends for life. You know like I’ve got my friends who I totally imagine being a grumpy old man with.

Keris Marsden: Yep.

Matt Whitmore: You know what I mean? And just maybe like still going to the pub or playing golf with them when I’m like 70-odd or … I don’t know why I say golf, I’ve never played it in my life.

Keris Marsden: You will.

Matt Whitmore: But I might do when I’m older, who knows. Got plenty of time.

Keris Marsden: When you can’t box or do rugby anymore or play football. It’s like-

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, when I’m so broken I can only just about swing a golf club.

Keris Marsden: Get in a golf cart-

Matt Whitmore: That’s what we’ll do, just go joy riding around a golf court all day … golf course even. You know and I’ve got those friends who, for me, I just always imagine will be there. But then I also think there’s people that are friends but almost they’re there for a chapter, if you like, of your life and they’re not necessarily a forever friend. And I just feel like there are some friends that serve a purpose, but you don’t always realise that at the time. Like I look back at some friendships, and don’t get me wrong, I still would consider that person a friend. And if I met up with that person I’d no doubt have a great time because obviously they were a friend, you know, and we might have been through a thing together or a certain, like I say, chapter in our lives, but I think sometimes we try so hard to cling onto a friendship because it’s almost like it’s the done thing. Oh, I need to hold onto this.
I’m trying to word this in a way that doesn’t just sound weird but something I’ve realised, actually, like I say there’s loads of you that I consider friends but I haven’t seen or spoke to for God knows how long. Yet, like I say, I could bump into them tomorrow, go for a beer and have a bloody great time. But it’s almost like they’re still classed as a friend but they’re not that friend who I still feel a need or a want to catch up with all the time.

Keris Marsden: But this can be, and I think this is-

Matt Whitmore: Did I make sense?

Keris Marsden: Yeah, you did ask me if it makes sense. And this can be one of the negative ways that we approach friendships is that we try to hold onto them all the time, when, like you just said, it doesn’t serve you at that time or it’s just been a natural kind of … it’s been a bit of a transient friendship. And if I try to invest equal amounts of time in all my friends I wouldn’t get anything done. It’s not ’cause I’ve got loads of friends but as I’ve got older-

Matt Whitmore: I’ve got nearly five thousand. On Facebook.

Keris Marsden: I think you’re lucky if you’ve got five good friends. And I really mean that. And I’m really lucky, I’ve got loads. But in terms of that I see on a regular basis, I’ve got university friends, I’ve done three courses now, I’ve done like three university style courses so each one of them came with a bunch of friends. And then you’ve got your school friends like you’ve said and I think … the way that I kind of reassure myself is-

Matt Whitmore: The thing is as well though is like, it gets to that … ’cause you have your friends and then you have the really close friends who you buy gifts for. And I just always think if you have too many close friends it’s going to work out really expensive.

Keris Marsden: Really expensive. But also it’s not just that I think it’s … as much as these are really important there becomes an element, definitely running a business, where you’ve had a lot of time where I haven’t been able to make reunions and birthdays and things, it becomes a massive guilt trip that kind of sets in. And I’ve had to really-

Keris Marsden: And I [inaudible 00:07:34] a present. But like there just becomes a time where that guilt is quite a factor and people are, you know, showing up to things because they’re like, I have to. I don’t really want to and I’m tired if I’m honest, like it doesn’t really … there’s a lot of … and what I’ve often said is, one of my best friends from when I was ten, we hook up, she lives over in America now, but we hook up and kind of go, we don’t speak for months. And sometimes, even throughout our lives we’ve drifted slightly apart and then we’ve just always come back to each other and then we get on the phone, it’s like we spoke … it’s like we’re ten and we’re running up a BT phone bill that’s going to be 110 pounds, I remember that one, we got absolutely rollocked for it.

Matt Whitmore: I love that word.

Keris Marsden: What?

Matt Whitmore: Rollocked.

Keris Marsden: It’s a bit nicer than the other version, isn’t it? But that friendship, she understands if I don’t get in touch and don’t … ignore her. It’s not because I’m ignoring her and she also … you have that relationship where you know, if I pick up the phone tomorrow, if God forbid anything happened to you and I said “I need somewhere to live” her door would be open. It’d be expensive to get there, admittedly, ’cause it’s in Washington.

Matt Whitmore: Come to Washington DC.

Keris Marsden: So the reason I’m kind of saying this, I think we should kind of go from the top, is there is science and research to show that people who have good, solid social groups that they kind of network with … ’cause humans are designed to be … we lived in tribes, we’re supposed to be around people, that’s how our whole kind of … health systems are almost geared to, you know, our immune system’s happiest-

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, yeah, most community-

Keris Marsden: But our immune system is happiest when we’re around other people, when we’re socially isolated what we’re seeing in the research is, inflammatory markers come up because your immune system’s a bit like, I’m on my own here, I need a defence, you know, I could be attacked at any time. So we see immune markers and risk factors increase. And I’m just going to-

Matt Whitmore: Well this is like, you know, it’s one of the common behaviours that the blue zones in the world … you know, which has got the highest amount of centenarians, those that live about 100 … did I get that right?

Keris Marsden: Yep.

Matt Whitmore: Those that live above 100, a big behaviour they share is that sense of community, isn’t it?

Keris Marsden: Yeah, no, completely. In fact we’ve seen it in people where we can see there’s a solid community, but let me just read this study to you because there was a quote from it, the result of this study that was done … it was a meta-analysis that was done which is where they get loads of other studies, basically compile them and then draw some conclusions. So in this study, ’cause it’s several studies compiled, it’s Social Relationships and Mortality Risk, a meta-analytic review. 308 thousand, yeah just over 308 thousand people, individuals followed for seven and a half years. And the outcome was basically that social relationships have a 50% greater likelihood … individuals with adequate, sorry, social relationships have a 50% greater likelihood of survival compared to those with poor or insufficient social relationships. And the magnitude of the effect was comparable to quitting smoking and also exceeds many well-known risk factors for mortality including obesity and physical inactivity. And they were saying one of the kind of conclusions that they could draw was having poor social relationship was equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And I know you rolled your eyes at that and you were like, how can you say that when you think of biochemical individuality and-

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, well I just never understand, you know, comparing something like that to a habit such as smoking. Do you know what I mean?

Keris Marsden: When you think of like, individuality … but remember these are like massive conclusions. But again it’s just something that I do feel people go about there day, and even now people are getting the message, obviously, I need to eat this way, I need to hit the gym, I need to meditate, la la la la, I’m trying to meditate. But no-one is stopping and going, what about my social relationships? Do I need to sit down and evaluate whether they work for me at this point in time. And here’s another thing I just want to, kind of … again, I’ve used this before. Sometimes with clients I don’t … obviously I don’t quote in this way that I’m talking to you, but there’s something called Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Now if anyone out there’s ever done psychology you’re way more advanced at this stuff than me, but I just found this really interesting when I came across it. And it’s the kind of needs of a human being, essentially. So if you just put this into Wikipedia you’ll get a little pyramid that comes up, and at the very top of the pyramid it’s self-actualization, which … do you know what that means?

Matt Whitmore: No.

Keris Marsden: I didn’t either, I was like, what does that mean? So I had a quick look at it and they were saying, basically the term was originally introduced and it’s expressing ones creativity, the quest of spiritual enlightenment, pursuit of knowledge and desire to give to and positively transform society. So it’s kind of like purpose, I think and that creativity is like a big part of it. So that’s that one.

Matt Whitmore: Sense of purpose, that makes sense.

Keris Marsden: So I’m just kind of doing that one. The next one is esteem, love and belonging, safety and physiological. So that’s things like you need water, you need food, you need shelter. But when you go along those things, like just now, if you’re doing a little bit of an audit, things like safety, love, belonging, a big part of that is whether you’re secure in those relationships if that makes sense. And if you think at any point a friend’s going to drop you if you don’t reply to their WhatsApp message or judge you if you don’t pick up the phone then this is a relationship you really need to assess, if that makes sense. And it’s probably not a positive relationship. And there are different types of people, I think, that … we’ve talked about this before, that can come into your life that can be energy drainers or maybe slightly full of themselves but you’re kind of … either you’re stuck with them ’cause you work with them or you’re … you know, they’re in your environment, there’s not a lot you can do about it. Or maybe you’re slightly drawn to them because … like at school where you kind of wanted to be friends with maybe the bully because they were the most popular person or you were safer if you were friends with them-

Matt Whitmore: So persevered as popular.

Keris Marsden: … than not be. Yeah, yeah, so you’re kind of drawn towards these people. And then some theories are that if they kind of represent figures in your family like a father figure or mother figure that you’ve been taught you should love then you hang around with these people, but in the meantime they’re destroying your own kind of self-esteem and your perception of yourself and your strength exists without them if that makes sense, independence. So I thought, just really, that I wanted to do a talk on this kind of thing so that we can people stopping for a second and going, right, there are some relationships that we can’t change in life, family, you know. But could you adapt in terms of your role with that person or the time that you spend with that person, or even just start a dialogue with that person where you’re kind of like, look, I really do want to help you at this point in time but when we look at communication now, these people can get hold of you at any point in the day. And I think that’s really … it’s kind of damaging a little bit to our health because, you know, if you are a person who’s very generous with your time and always wants to help it just means that at some point in the day someone is always going to be asking you for help as well, likely.

Matt Whitmore: Well you know, I suppose it’s that classic saying, isn’t it? It’s like give an inch and they take a mile type of thing. Which I know is normally quite a negative expression, but I think sometimes people can potentially, I don’t know, become a reliant upon you. Which I don’t think is ever healthy, I don’t think relying on anyone or whatever is ever a healthy thing. Like we rely on each other, don’t get me wrong, but we don’t solely rely on one another or our friends for certain things, do we?

Keris Marsden: No, no. Well I think that’s a good place to start, I suppose. First of all start with your partner relationship, I think that’s a really good place to stop and say are your needs being met in terms of do you- ?

Matt Whitmore: Are they? We could? Can you imagine?

Keris Marsden: Well there is this one thing … no I’m joking. Yeah but I think about … it’s interesting because I talk to a lot of female friends about this who are kind of … in fact at the weekend I was talking to a female friend about this and I was saying I used to meet up, in my twenties, with a load of friends and all we used to do was kind of moan about our boyfriends. Oh he did this, like I cooked dinner and they didn’t turn up and he’s always with his friends, always boozing and watching football, doesn’t pay me any attention, I don’t feel attractive. You know, all that kind of stuff. And what was really nice was talking to her on the weekend about that I was like I haven’t done that since I met you really, so there we go. A need has been met.

Matt Whitmore: Yay, tick.

Keris Marsden: He does not watch football … no I’m joking. No but it’s like I don’t meet up with friends and moan about you, like I don’t. So I think it’s a really nice reflection on … but I’ve definitely been in relationships where I did.

Matt Whitmore: It’s ’cause I don’t let you out of the house.

Keris Marsden: Because I’m never not with you so I can’t. Thank God she’s not back, oh you are back, oh bloody hell. But starting off by looking at what are your expectations from the relationship. And we are not like, obviously, relationship counsellors but both of us have been in a wrong relationship and then hopefully, I think you’ll agree, don’t say if you don’t, that we’re not in the right relationship and therefore we kind of know, we’ve experienced both so it’s nice. And I think a lot of people are wandering round with somebody who doesn’t put in effort, doesn’t tell them, you know … you need that right balance, this is going to be individual but you need that right balance between knowing that someone loves you, is in love with you, cares for you, thinks you look cracking, really motivates you and challenges you and kind of encourages you to push boundaries, so has your back if you want to jump out of your job rather than being like, stay in your job ’cause it just makes life a lot easier.
Those kind of things, I think that’s really important. And everyone else’ll have different perceptions of this. But then also isn’t kind of letting you walk all over them, there’s nothing [inaudible 00:17:03] in that either. And also when you speak and say what your needs are they’re not belittled in any way and you’re not told that it’s … and that’s something that I see that’s very common. If you know your gut feeling is, I’d like to have this then that’s it. Anything to comment on that? What’s Matt’s needs? Or man’s needs from your partners relationships? Can you speak for the- ?

Matt Whitmore: For the masses.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: I don’t know but I think it’s such a unique thing isn’t it? In terms of what people look for in a relationship and I think for most people it is very much a journey, if you like, and it takes time to kind of figure these things out. And you learn from past relationships. ‘Cause bear in mind that, you know, past relationships at one point were bloody amazing and you couldn’t imagine being with or anywhere else, you know? This is me, I’m so happy.

Keris Marsden: Chemistry is a wonderful thing.

Matt Whitmore: But of course, we both know that the …

Keris Marsden: It’s a wonderful thing.

Matt Whitmore: But of course, we both know that, that can change.

Keris Marsden: Chemistry does not equal compatibility. Not necessarily, I don’t think.

Matt Whitmore: No, no. Definitely not. And, I think as well, very much like you go through the journey as an individual but you also go through the journey as a couple. And, sometimes I think you might find out you are on two different trains going on two different directions. So, its not that you don’t get a long, its not that you don’t like one another’s personality or whatever but you just might be a slightly different destination to the other person at that time. It’s just the compatibility isn’t there.

Keris Marsden: That’s a really point because of the things that is talked about [inaudible 00:18:51] of Needs, is that they took into account that human beings need to grow and know more and develop. And, what I tend to see is that happens more in one person than the other. So, if one person is wanting to grow and know and become, again keep progressing themselves and do development and academics or whatever it might be. And, the other person is like, “I’m just happy with Netflix and a beer.” I said that like it’s a man. I take that back. It could be a woman.
If your partner is flat. Flat is the best way to put it. Again, I’ve seen that quite a few times where you kind of see couples together and this person is so proactive and progressive and this person is flat. I think that has to be worked through personally before one affects the other. Because, also, the other thing that was shown in these studies is, if you spend time with people who are prone to be kind of low and depressive and those kind of things, it affects your mood and pulls you down. You hang with who you might become at some point. If they’re very negative and that kind of thing, so I think that can become the kind of contrast in or conflict slightly in that relationship. So, it’s important to address that. But, I also think, we talked about this the other day, we go out so many times for dinner or whatever and we see people in silence all the time.

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, just sat there.

Keris Marsden: [inaudible 00:20:18] In silence. The conversation is very important. The art of conversation is dying because everyone is on their phone all the time. And, we get that and there occasions, I think someone’s gonna see us in public and we’re both on our phones, not talking.

Matt Whitmore: It’s not like we’ve never been on the dinner table and not had our phone out.

Keris Marsden: No.

Matt Whitmore: It’s rare.

Keris Marsden: I think, you almost have to challenge yourself as a partnership to say, “Let’s leave the phone’s at home. Let’s leave the phones in the handbag, phones in the pocket.” We are gonna naturally end up on them. And, I think its something that you just do out of habit but it’s slightly addictive. One of you says something and, “Oh, I’ll just check that.”

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, yeah.

Keris Marsden: Then, next thing you know, you are scrolling through Facebook. You’re suppose to look for what time the gym opens but you end up scrolling through Facebook. You can’t help yourself, it’s there and it is so addictive. And, I think it’s sad because we are losing the art of conversation now. Both, you and I, commented on it, it’s seconds or a minute max before someone starts to look at the plane overhead basically.

Matt Whitmore: ‘Cause we often say that one of our slight issue and we always joke that most people, one goes to work and the other goes to work. They come home. They talk about their day. You know, “what did you get up to today? What’s going on at work? How’s that project you’re working on?” Blah, blah, blah. Whereas, of course, Keris and I work together. We live together. We work from home most of the time. We knows the ins and outs of what each other’s doing.

Keris Marsden: My heads on the table.

Matt Whitmore: We almost don’t have that. But, a lot of the time, we do talk about work a lot, don’t we? But, sometimes, we just to be, “Is this a problem? Is this unhealthy, that a lot of the stuff that we discuss is work related?” But, I think there’s a moment where you almost accept it for what it is and actually embrace it because at the same time its always exciting, what we talk about.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.[crosstalk 00:22:17] We are talking about what we are passionate about.

Matt Whitmore: Exactly. It’s what we’re passionate about. It’s what we believe in. It’s what we want to achieve. It’s all about goals. It’s all about our future, the lifestyle we want to lead, etc. Also, about the legacy we want to leave behind and etc. ‘Cause we are in the business of helping people, it’s always exciting topic, isn’t it?

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: So, now I almost don’t see it as bad thing, well as a lot of people are like, “I don’t know that I could do what you guys do. You know, live together, work together.

Keris Marsden: But this goes out to all the people out there. You can be really different as people. We are very different as people but you need common objectives and common passions in some way. And, they can be very different as well. Maybe it is that one of you is really passionate about sports or some sort and the other is really passionate about, I don’t know, a creative hobby, photography or whatever it is, and you come back together and you talk. But, you should be interested in what your partner has to say.

Matt Whitmore: Oh, of course.

Keris Marsden: That’s the thing. You still want to hear them. Don’t get me wrong I will waffle at you about [inaudible 00:23:18] and your eye glaze over at some point. And, you’ll waffle at me about something like clothing or trainers or something that you are so fascinated in detail but I’m like, okay you lost me now.
We laugh about it and we joke about it. Just going back to a favourite thing, I’m sure you guys listening have seen this before, we talk about the plane overhead, which is when you can be in a conversation with someone, this happens to us with strangers, with family, with shopkeepers and it’s like someone talks at you about them. And, we are really interested ’cause we’re like, “God, tell us more. Tell us more.” We quite like it, don’t we? But then, as soon as they go and ask you a question and then you answer, a plane goes overhead and their eyes just go up and you’ve lost them.
[inaudible 00:24:02] Plane overhead.
It’s almost, that is what is happening to conversation a little bit. It’s like, if you ask someone to speak about themselves, the natural back and forth of you talk, I talk, you ask me a question, I ask you a question, I’m interested in you and you’re interested in me, is dying. And, I don’t mean in just partnerships. I mean in in any conversation.

Matt Whitmore: But the point I was going to make or I was going to move onto when I mentioned work, was there is also a big thing in enjoying what you do, for the most part. I think it’s very rare for people to say, “I love my job. I’m super excited to talk every single day.” And gutted when it’s time to go home. But I love it when I know that someone loves what they do and they talk about their job with such passion and excitement. And, it intrigues you. And you’re like, “well what kind of project are you working on at the minute?” And genuinely, it interests you.

Keris Marsden: How many people do you know that-

Matt Whitmore: Huh?

Keris Marsden: How many do you reckon have said that?

Matt Whitmore: Not loads.

Keris Marsden: That’s the sad thing, isn’t it? I can count about three or four that have said that.

Matt Whitmore: I can count on one arm that’s for sure. But, my point is, if you do come across someone who doesn’t like their job, very much dislikes their job and feels quite frustrated, stressed and what not, it becomes a conversation that you almost don’t want to have because when you ask them about it, and I’ll tell you a classic example for me is when I work with clients. Probably similar to you and my personal training clients. I have a little chat with them, a little bit of chat in between sets and what not. And, you ask them about work and things they’ve been working on and this, that and the other. But, after a while you do almost dread it, if it is someone who despises their job. Because it’s always the same conversation. And, it’s not a conversation you necessarily want to engage in ’cause it’s just very much, bosses still being a nob and this working that they are working on. “They’re asking too much of me.”
You kind of lost count of the amount of times that you said, “Well maybe, look for another job if you are this unhappy.” And again, I guess this kind of goes back into what you were saying earlier about, if you got that friend that’s always on the downer, after a while you are a little bit like, “I don’t know if I could do a meeting with so and so and just listening moan for hour and a half about-

Keris Marsden: It’s hard. Someone actually asked me this question last week and I thought, “Gosh, I should probably write a blog about this.” They said, “Do you think you could be healthy if you hate your job?”

Matt Whitmore: Oh, yeah. I remember that.

Keris Marsden: “Do you think you could be healthy if you hate your partner or the people you live with or the environment you live in?” I think all of it is a really good question and I’m not sure the answer is yes. Don’t think you can be truly healthy. I think it’s hard to be truly healthy [crosstalk 00:26:54] These drive other behaviours, don’t they?

Matt Whitmore: 100%

Keris Marsden: If you don’t like the person coming home at night to the person you’re coming home to or the environment you’re coming home to, either you are not gonna go home, you’re gonna stay out, maybe going to the gym that’s cool but then you over train. Or maybe, you go out drinking and that’s not that great consistently either.

Matt Whitmore: Well, everything we do really is part of a pattern. We always say that it’s never one thing. Everything has the power to have either a positive or negative knock-on affect to kind of what’s going to happen next. And, it’s like you say, if you genuinely bloody well hate your job for whatever reason, you’re gonna wake up with a bad head on your shoulders. You probably want to eat crap food for a little bit of pleasure. Or like you said, you might want to go to the gym to absolutely beast yourself just to get a hint of endorphin rush. That’s not the way to start your day.
And, we always say, yeah sure fair enough, this is easier said than done. But, the reality is there comes a point where people are just like, “You know what, I just can’t listen to you moan about your job anymore. Either shut the hell up and bloody deal with it or go and get another job.” And I know that sounds quite harsh but I think it’s true. There’s only so long someone can moan and moan and moan and moan until someone goes, and to be fair we are talking about socialising. We are talking about friendships, that there is a good friend. The one that tells you, “Listen, put a bloody sock in it-

Keris Marsden: To be fair, when people would hook up with us when we first went online and ran this business, they’d be with us and we would both be like, “It is so hard.” It’s just another level hard. We didn’t know about the infrastructure. We didn’t know about the kind of administration involved in it, the pressure, the time or anything. And, it’s like, but we’ve always been quite conscious. Don’t just talk about that. We would always….concept balance in that scenario when we met up with people. When I hear about those, also me and you would be like, “Can we talk about something else as well? Tell us what you’re doing?” We wanted distraction.
I think what’s quite good, if you’ve listened to this and felt anything that made you reflect or thought about things, I think there’s lots of different kind of ways that you could take this information away and implement it. But, I think the first thing that you have to do is, one of the reasons that we let these, there’s a couple of reasons the essential relationships end up affecting our health and it’s because we’ve placed so much value and importance on them. And, I think maybe, taking in a moment to think. First of all, is that the right thing to do? Are they that important?
But also, to start looking at yourself. ‘Cause with half the time, we are relying on these relationships ’cause we don’t have the confidence to step away from them or we don’t have the belief in yourself to be able to go, “Well, I’m gonna adjust this relationship. I’m gonna say, I don’t have enough time as I use to because I’m doing this. So, I’m just going to have to scale back or not be on WhatsApp as much. So, don’t be offended if I don’t reply maybe once a week, instead or once every couple of days. It’s not that I’ve gone anywhere. I’m just busy, sorting myself out.” I think having the confidence to do that, if that person reacts back at you as offended and says, “Well, you aren’t there for me.” Then that’s alarm bells for me.
A good friend will understand. You or I are not suggesting that anybody let’s anybody down, steps away from a person in need, a friend in need but I think it’s gotten out of control because of the fact that technology has connected us to all of our friends all the time. And, I know for me personally, just keeping on top of all those different things email, WhatsApp, Facebook, my phone, ti’s just too many ways for people to contact me. And if, I sat there and kept up with all of the groups, WhatsApp group and things that I’m on and messages and things, me and you wouldn’t get to actually sit down to talk about 10 o’clock.
And, there have been times where I’ve done that. Where I thought, “I’m just gonna nail them all.” Then I literally end up disappearing because this is a brilliant piece of information and once you’ve cleared and email, once you’ve sent an email or replied to an email, chances are when you come back there’s going to be a reply.

Matt Whitmore: Yeah.

Keris Marsden: It’s suicide.

Matt Whitmore: [crosstalk 00:31:01]

Keris Marsden: [crosstalk 00:31:03] Through WhatsApp and then your phone goes ding, ding. It’s like, WhatsApp is the one thing I’m seriously wanting to come off, if I could. Because the way conversations play out in that thing, I’m just like. I’ve got lots friends who just have kids, they’re at home, they are pinging those messages off all the time. ‘Cause like four of them are just breast feeding so they are consistently on it all day. And I’m like-

Matt Whitmore: They say that when you’re part of an actually group, you no longer having a chat with just one person. All of a sudden there’s like five or six or more in the same group and your like, “Blimey.” You are trying to catch up on the conversation. And then, what I found with WhatsApp is that once you reply, you know the thing with WhatsApp is one of my clients said to me the other day, “Why do you send such long WhatsApp messages?” And I’m like, “Why send 10 really little ones when you can send one big one. I don’t understand.” And they tried to explain to me why you do that on WhatsApp.
A lot of people are like, “Hey.”
“What are you up to?”

Keris Marsden: I think I’m getting it wrong then.

Matt Whitmore: When I start to reply, what I said the problem was that you then start to reply one of the things they’ve said but then another message comes through. When you first send, you realise you haven’t acknowledged that.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: But then, they are already replying to yours. But then, you are replying tot he other part of the thing.

Keris Marsden: Can you see why-

Matt Whitmore: All of a sudden the messages, I don’t know which one I am replying to now because there’s been this crossover.

Keris Marsden: This is contributing to killing the art of conversation.

Matt Whitmore: Well, here’s the thing, its not even conversation, its communication. And, obviously, you go back 10 years, before WhatsApp and all these ways to instant message each other and see if someone has read a message and all of that, that’s the best one.

Keris Marsden: [crosstalk 00:32:54] Equally, you are like, “Well they’ve read it and they haven’t replied.”

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, that’s what I mean.

Keris Marsden: Instant reflection on where you are in the pecking order. [inaudible 00:33:03] Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: But, I can see they’ve been online since then.They’ve updated their status since then. They haven’t replied to my message of over tow hours before.

Keris Marsden: It’s like a nightmare.

Matt Whitmore: My point is, there was once upon a time when, if you wanted to speak to someone you either sought them or you picked up the phone.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: But now a days, it’s like picking up the phone is almost too much effort and it’s just a ping on WhatsApp. I’ll just send him a text. I’ll send him a Facebook message, whatever it might be. And then people get all antsy because you haven’t replied but you know what its like sometimes. You read something and you say, “I’ll get back to that.” Or whatever because your working. You are actually earning a living but…’cause I have a lot of people that message me and I’m like, “Rather then keep going back and forth, I’m gonna give them a ring.”

Keris Marsden: They look at their phone in horror. They’re like, “Oh, why is he ringing me?”

Matt Whitmore: But then they don’t answer. I’m like, “But you only just messaged me and now you’re not answering the phone.” And it’s like, “I can’t actually bother to have a conversation on the phone with you.”

Keris Marsden: It’s funny ’cause they don’t always get on WhatsApp or do they? I don’t know. But anyway-

Matt Whitmore: My mum has WhatsApp now. She sends me the other day. I message her, I reply to her WhatsApp. I’m said, I’m sorry mum, I’m just seeing this now.” And then, my mum does this thing where she messages me, I message her back and then she calls me. And I’m like, “If you’re gonna call me anyway, just call me.”

Keris Marsden: She’s checking if you’re near your phone and then she rumbles you.

Matt Whitmore: No, but here’s the thing, then she said to me when I said, “I’ve only just seen this.” She went, “Oh, I thought on WhatsApp, when there was two ticks, it means you’ve read it.” And I was like, “I don’t know.” Maybe someone can write in and correct me on this because I genuinely hadn’t opened the message yet. Like when I replied to her is when I’d seen it.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: Genuinely, so I was like, “Well, I don’t know. I’m literally jus replying to you know ’cause I’ve seen it now. Maybe it’s to do with if you opened the app, it acknowledges that you’ve been in the app or something like that. I don’t know.” But the way-

Keris Marsden: [crosstalk 00:35:33]

Matt Whitmore: She issued a “hmm.” As if to say-

Keris Marsden: “I don’t trust you.”

Matt Whitmore: Whatever, you’re lying through your teeth. But I don’t know. Maybe I’ll google it afterwards. What do the blue ticks mean on WhatsApp? ‘Cause to be fair, I’ve always thought the blue ticks were there, that means they’ve read it. But then that could be wrong.

Keris Marsden: It’s so wrong but then it’s right in some ways when you think, I get amazing videos from family and I’ve seen videos of niece-

Keris Marsden: I get amazing videos from family, and like I get to see videos of niece and friends with kids. And they gone through, and it’s like, “Oh, I like watching them.” But I kinda of like to watch it in my time. Not having someone goin’, “She’s read the message, and she has not acknowledged it.”

Matt Whitmore: You watched that, yeah?

Keris Marsden: But again, I suppose a few takeaways from those would be to kinda step back, look at your social health and the people that you are spending most of the time with. The last bit I wanted to kinda talk about actually was also think about … we were having a bit of a chat about this today, that if you quite a competitive person and maybe you’re putting a lot of pressure on yourself and maybe in terms of maybe career goals, maybe training goals, maybe even nutrition. Maybe even health, maybe like, “I gotta get healthy. I’ve gotta get rid of this symptom.”
We see that, don’t we? We’re like, you’re driving this process so hard. Haymitch is coming because I did that voice. He’s like, “Whoa, isn’t that dog.”

Matt Whitmore: He’s like, “What’s going on?”

Keris Marsden: If you are that sort of person but then you spend time in environments with those people, how are you ever gonna scale back and actually take the pressure off yourself. So when people say to me, “Oh, I’ve always been this way, I’ve always been uberly competitive in the gym. I’ve always like been kinda negative in terms of my body confidence or relationship with myself, how to kind of polish it myself, not very body confident. And I beat myself up.”
But then they spend time around a load of girlfriends that do exactly the same thing. You know, I definitely have friends who I hook up with and we never even look at each other. And then I’ve got friends who I’m meeting and I say to you, “This person’s gonna judge me because she knows I’m on nutrition, she knows I’m a trainer. She’s gonna judge me.” And that’s women on women thing, I often see, I’ve always said that to you. So I feel more pressure from women than I do from male friends that I meet up with.
So, think about the people that you spend time with, because are they driving some characteristics in you that you’re actively trying to reverse or actually adapt a little bit so that you don’t put the same kind of … keep doing what you’ve always done essentially. So that’s some of it. It’s not that you don’t spend time with them and ignore them, but it’s like don’t spend the majority of your time with them or scale back. But I think a key take home is really you have to change your relationship with yourself and also your own state of mind and your own health, and build a really solid foundation of, like we’ve just said, make sure you acknowledge what your needs are and kinda know your needs. I think that’s a big part of it, like stepping back, looking at all your friends, reflecting, then accepting the situation for what it is, understanding what you really want and what you feel you really need.
And then starting to do things that we’ve always talked about in all these podcasts, which is kind of eat nutritiously, support your health, get enough sleep. You can’t think straight if you haven’t got enough sleep, for a start. And then start to put maybe some practises in place to build better social health. And a few things that I think are really beneficial from this flawless area of your life is to actually step away from if you are in a gym environment where it’s all about what you’re lifting, what do you look like, what’s your post-workout smoothie got in it, what protein powder you using now. If you step away from that environment and go and volunteer to work in a retirement home or go and help walk someone’s dog who, you know, an elderly person who can’t get out anymore. Or go and volunteer for anyone else whose needs are so much greater than what you’re kind of perceiving to be important. I think that’s really helpful.

Matt Whitmore: Yeah.

Keris Marsden: And yeah, just kind of step out of your normal social circle and go and spend time in the community with people who are genuinely in need of some help in some way. And develop different social relationships and it’ll give you a different sense of purpose, a different sense of like, “Okay, these people value me for a different reason to where I’m valued in, you know, be it work or where you’re valued in the gym or something.”

Matt Whitmore: But it’s expectation as well, isn’t it? Like, in terms of what you might expect from your friends and what your friends expect from you. And it’s being able to manage that, you know, without it causing a problem.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: ‘Cause the thing is, it’s all well and good saying, “Oh, you know, hang around with the right people and blah blah blah.” But then you also have a responsibility as an individual to be that to those people.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: Do you know what I mean?

Keris Marsden: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Whitmore: And I feel that like I mentioned earlier, we’ve lost the art of communication in terms of how we communicate with one another. Like, we’re not upfront with each other because it’s too easy to hide behind a text message or what’s happened, whatever.

Keris Marsden: Yeah, people can be very different in those kind of mediums of communication than actually-

Matt Whitmore: The [00:40:31] is like, you know what it’s like. Sometimes you can read a text message completely wrong.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: And get a complete run under the stick. And I think I’ve mentioned to you before, there’s those two comedians in America, the do a little sketch on like they’re having a text chat and how one of them is just completely got the wrong end of the stick. And it’s showing their reactions to reading each other’s messages and one thinks it’s a really kind of sweet conversation between two friends, and the other one’s getting really offended at one time.

Keris Marsden: What say you?

Matt Whitmore: And yeah. And I think, “Gosh, it’s so, so true.” But again, if you’d just picked up the phone, you would’ve worded it exactly how you meant it rather than it being read a certain way.

Keris Marsden: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even like your tone of voice, and even kind of explaining. I think if you confidently and I do plan to do this at some point, confidently step forward and like, “Guys, got enough of WhatsApp, I haven’t got the time for it.” I think everyone would be like, “Fair play.”

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, it is.

Keris Marsden: But if you are like, “I’m so, so sorry guys. Da da da da. Look, I’ve tried and da da da da.” It’s like when you make up twenty excuses, everyone knows you’re lying.

Matt Whitmore: Yeah yeah.

Keris Marsden: If you just confidently step forward and say … one of my friends recently did it on Facebook and said, “I’m going to come off Facebook, and the reason being I’m spending half my night with FOMO looking at everybody else.” And one thing I know having worked with so many different clients, it’s like, “My goodness, what you see on there is, you know, it’s just the highlight reel and stuff.” But it doesn’t bother me because I get to see what most people are going through, so I’m like, “Eh, it doesn’t bother me.” I know most people have got kind of other stuff going on.
But some people I didn’t realise are genuinely swayed by it. And this is girlfriends I’ve spoke to have said, “Everyone’s life’s perfect, isn’t it?” And I’m like, “You serious? You can’t honestly believe that. Like, honestly. Just go deep, go ask some silly questions, ring them. Pick up the phone and ring them They will not stop talking about this and that, this and that, da da da.” But all you see is beautiful child, beautiful car, beautiful home. You know, like that’s what you see, but deep down, there’s so much politics and stuff going on. Family politics, friends politics, whatever it might be, work politics.
But if you do it very confidently, if you’re like, “Nope, this is better for me and I’m gonna do this,” everyone will respect you for it. And who knows? Maybe the land line will be back by 2019.

Matt Whitmore: It’s why I said like the only way to-

Keris Marsden: Communicate. My mom wants me to get a land line.

Matt Whitmore: I was just saying, we don’t even have one. We haven’t had a land line for-

Keris Marsden: She said, “Get a land line, and you can turn that bloody phone off.”

Matt Whitmore: It’s true, to be fair. It’d be like-

Keris Marsden: Because then you would show off, wouldn’t you? And then you could literally turn … and then turn Internet off, turn the … and then you would not be going online, but then you wouldn’t be able to tell anyone, would you?

Matt Whitmore: But it’s weird, though, because me and my best mate, we only really communicate via phone.

Keris Marsden: You speak, don’t you, though? You don’t actually do much texting.

Matt Whitmore: That’s what I was saying, by phone.

Keris Marsden: Yeah, but you can text on a phone.

Matt Whitmore: I don’t … bloody hell … I meant-

Keris Marsden: Call.

Matt Whitmore: I call. Phone call.

Keris Marsden: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Whitmore: You know, like we very rarely send a text or a WhatsApp to each other, like very, very rarely. It might be … we might do it if it’s like a just a random, in the moment thing, like if he’s bought a new car or something like that. He’ll be like, “Oh, check this out” or whatever.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: But nine times out of ten, we call each other. You know, we a chat over the phone and we go from there. And that’s how we’ve always been because when we were a bit younger and I was more like into texting, like if I texted him, he’d call me straight back.

Keris Marsden: Really?

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, yeah, ’cause he would be like, “Oh, Matt’s contacting me, let’s have a chat.” And he’d never really done the whole texting thing.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: So then he got the point where I was like, there’s no point in texting him ’cause he won’t text me back. He’ll probably just call me back, sometimes I would just call him anyway.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: And we’d have a chat on the phone type thing. But that’s just how it is and you know, talking about relationships, like my best mate is my best mate, obviously. But we don’t speak all the time, because other people we probably socialise with more within our friendship circle than we do one another. But to me, he’s still my best mate. You know, like we went to school together, you know, we’ve always been like best mates ever since then. And I was best man to his wedding, I think he’ll be best man to mine. Well, he will be, I’ll ask him, whether he accepts or not, then he’ll be like, “You never called me.”

Keris Marsden: Yeah, you’re texting me.

Matt Whitmore: “I’m not your best friend anymore.”

Keris Marsden: But I think it’s important to mention that like with everything, because we’re connected socially that became for a while … don’t think it is anymore, but that for a while became a bit competitive, like how many friends have you got? How many people like your post? That kind of thing. I get it, it’s different for us because we run a business on there, but one thing that we always try and do as business is we’re not really concerned with likes, we’re concerned with the quality of the content that we put out there. And it’s exactly the same for your friendships. Doesn’t matter how many you have. I always say if you’ve got three or four, even one good friend, it is all you need.

Matt Whitmore: To be fair, when I say he’s my best mate, he’s my only mate. He ain’t gotta choice. Only one.

Keris Marsden: But it’s the quality of those friendships is so much more important and-

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, course it is.

Keris Marsden: You’d be better investing time in that and making sure you’ve got these enduring friendships that mean a lot rather than trying to have several … lots, you know … be the popular one on Facebook.

Matt Whitmore: But do you know what? I think it’s easy to, you know … that people send you friend requests on Facebook and what not. And you have the choice of whether obviously you accept or decline. Instagram stuff’s a bit different, it’s a case of they follow you, you don’t necessarily follow back, so to speak. But over late, I have found myself unfriending people on Facebook, not in a bad way, like, “Oh, I don’t wanna be your Facebook friend anymore.” There’s no drama. But it’s more like, sometimes if I see a post of someone who I’m like, “You know what? I actually have no idea who you are. I can’t remember where I met you, if I met you.” Chances are I didn’t, it’s just like a Facebook thing.
And if I start seeing a pattern in people’s posts where it’s like a pouty selfie or just really kind of it’s too try-hard, I’m just like, “Okay, this offers no value to me. Like, I don’t know you, I have no obligation to stay friends with you on Facebook.” And it is just like a little bit of a clear out.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: And I just unfriend them. And I’m just like, “Whatever.”

Keris Marsden: Mine is multi-level marketing. If I see any juice pills, or shake diets, or “Eyelids, oh my god, it transformed my health.”

Matt Whitmore: No matter how many times you accept a friend request from someone that you have like a load of mutual friends then within five minutes, you got an inbox message. “Hey-

Matt Whitmore: Or sometimes you know I just unfollow people, because it means you just don’t see their trash on my feed. You know, and I’m just like, this person’s just got too much drama in their life, I don’t wanna be seeing about this. Now I’m just gonna unfriend, I’ve got no obligations to remain Facebook friends with them.

Keris Marsden: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Whitmore: If they wanna message me or whatever and reach out and be like, “Why did you unfriend me?” I’ll be like, “Well, when was the last time we engaged in any kind of communication.”

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: Just means we’re not really friends, we were just like Facebook connections. And same with Instagram. I just been unfollowing some people, ’cause I’m like, “You know what? You don’t actually add any value to me.”

Keris Marsden: If somebody deletes you as a friend, this is another thing I’ve had friends tell me about, “So and so deleted me with no explanation whatsoever.” You’ve gotta start saying, “So what?”

Matt Whitmore: So what?

Keris Marsden: You have to start saying that over and over again, ’cause all sorts of … I mean if you want to reach out and go, “Sorry, did I offend you?” It’s happened to us loads and we’re like, at first we were like, “Oh my gosh. I’ve been deleted. Did I do something?” And interestingly, friends have kind of come forward and said, “Well, you know, I just couldn’t stand seeing all your stuff about exercising and eating well when I was not exercising and not eating well.”
I never realised I was having that … and I was trying to shout out for the greater good. I wasn’t trying to make people feel bad about themselves.

Matt Whitmore: No, of course not.

Keris Marsden: But again, it’s all about … that’s what social media is. But what I was gonna say was if that happens, say, “So what?” But so wet …

Matt Whitmore: So wet …

Keris Marsden: So what? But again, it’s not a reflection on you necessarily, but by all means, reach out and ask. And I’m kinda repeating the same thing there. But I do see that, and people are like, “Oh, what have I done? What have I done?” It can really derail people, I’m like, “I don’t know why.”

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, you do take it personal. But if it meant that much to you, like I said, you would contact that person. Or that’s what you should do.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: ‘Cause again, that’s how you communicate.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: But if you’re not willing to do that, then just be like, “Whatever. I can now unfriended me.” Like, so what?

Keris Marsden: Facebook is like a giant playground in some ways, isn’t it? Where it’s like more popular people and unpopular. Bullies. [crosstalk 00:49:07]

Matt Whitmore: Course you have. And there’s so many people out there who I just think, like, I’m all for social media. I have met some amazing people through Facebook. And when I say met as well, still some of these I’ve not met in person, yet I can still turn around and say, “Do you know what? They’re a good person.”

Keris Marsden: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Whitmore: Even though I’ve never met them, I could be completely wrong. I’m just basing it on what I see. You know, I’ve had complete strangers like reach out to me, and just say some really amazing stuff. And you’re like, “Gosh, oh, they didn’t need to do that.”

Keris Marsden: What? Like, “You got nice biceps?”

Matt Whitmore: “You’ve got amazing gums.”

Keris Marsden: “Can I buy you a drink?”

Matt Whitmore: And I’m like … it was like, someone reached out once to tell me about how my posts had really inspired them, like at a really low moment or something like that. And that they were really, really appreciative. And that obviously makes you think, like, “Gosh, I’m … ” You don’t realise that even though someone hasn’t necessarily told you at the time, the opportunity to have an impact on someone’s life, to what might be to you, something really innocent as just sharing a workout, or a video talking about a particular subject, like you don’t know what impact that might have on someone.

Keris Marsden: Yeah.

Matt Whitmore: Equally, the opposite is true. I don’t think anyone puts content out there to make anyone feel bad about themselves like you’ve just said. But we often talk about your mindset at that moment that you view something will completely decide-

Keris Marsden: Your interpretation of it.

Matt Whitmore: Yeah, how it makes you feel. Because if you’re, I don’t know, let’s say for example, you worked your ass off to try and get a promotion at work, or you’ve been applying for job after job after job after job, with no success, and then all of a sudden on this particular day when you’re frustrated, you’re down, you’re doubting yourself. “Am I ever gonna get a job? Am I good enough?” You know, questioning all these things. And then you go on there, and in that particular day, you see a few friends of yours who are just like, “Just got that promotion at work. Just got my dream job” or whatever, they’re your friends.
Let’s assume they are actual real friends, and you might be like, “Do you know what? I’m pleased for them as a friend, but at the same time, I just don’t need to see this shit today.” And it makes you probably feel even worse about yourself. They didn’t say, “I’ve got my dream job” to make anyone feel bad.

Keris Marsden: No, no, no, no.

Matt Whitmore: And they announced it because it’s a big deal to them.

Keris Marsden: ‘Cause your situation tends your …

Matt Whitmore: But your situation, your kind of like head space at that time, whereas if you’s in your dream job already, you probably going, “Oh, that’s blood amazing. Congratulations, I’m so pleased for you.”

Keris Marsden: And that’s a takeaway from that point there, is that you’re right. So Facebook is kinda like a giant school playground, the difference being it was compulsory to go to school, not compulsory to be on Facebook at any time other than when you wanna check out what fair food I’ve put out there. But-

Matt Whitmore: Nice.

Keris Marsden: You could just firstly, obviously be on there less, choose the time you go on there, and certainly don’t go on there if you’re not feeling that good. I definitely pull back. I just know when I’m like, “I have so much to do today. I feel slightly overwhelmed. Why don’t I strike on Facebook and go and look up all the people that are nailing everything and I’m running really like your successful business and I make myself feel inadequate.” Like I actually now actively say, “Stay in the moment, keep your phone off, get your to-do list out, write it all down and start working through it.” And then when I feel calmer in control, like, then I’ll kind of-