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SpacerAM2 wrote:scalping makes the prices even go higher online ,and the retailers take note of this. they also raise up their prices even more as well.

That's actually a good thing. When retailers make more money on a product, they invest more in that product. The more they invest in that product, the more the manufacturer can put towards innovation and production. The more the manufacturer puts into innovation and production, the better and cheaper the product becomes.

The real misfortune of scalping is that the manufacturer misses potential profit which could be used towards making new and improved products.

But, again, it's the fault of Toys R Us and Hasbro for underselling products they could have made more profit from. By underestimating demand, they invite scalpers to take a cut.

The real threat of scalping is if it is skewing the market. If more people start buying toys with the intent to resell them than buy them for the pleasure of owning them, then the scalping market will collapse, and retailers will end up with a lot of unwanted toys on their shelves. If product doesn't move, retailers won't bother restocking, and manufacturers will find themselves producing fewer new goods.

SpacerAM2 wrote:wrong it is a bad thing. greed hurts us all in the long run. even the retailers jack the prices even more. collectables included. like toys r us is doing.

Making a fair profit is not "greed," and it doesn't "hurt" anyone. The exchanges that occur in a Toys R Us are all voluntary, and each party thinks they leave with something more valuable than they brought in. Otherwise they would not freely agree upon the exchange.

If Toys R Us starts asking unfair prices, then consumers will stop buying product. If people stop buying product, then the manufacturer (if it wants to survive) finds a way to cut costs and produce a cheaper product. It's why they have sales...because they know the retail value will only be acceptable to the highest paying consumers. They also know that by starting at a high retail value, they can make consumers think they are getting more value from their product by temporarily or even permanently reducing the price in the future. (If $15 becomes the new norm, then $10 looks like a bargain...even though it used to be the norm.)

SpacerAM2 wrote:wrong it is a bad thing. greed hurts us all in the long run. even the retailers jack the prices even more. collectables included. like toys r us is doing.

Making a fair profit is not "greed," and it doesn't "hurt" anyone. The exchanges that occur in a Toys R Us are all voluntary, and each party thinks they leave with something more valuable than they brought in. Otherwise they would not freely agree upon the exchange.

If Toys R Us starts asking unfair prices, then consumers will stop buying product. If people stop buying product, then the manufacturer (if it wants to survive) finds a way to cut costs and produce a cheaper product. It's why they have sales...because they know the retail value will only be acceptable to the highest paying consumers. They also know that by starting at a high retail value, they can make consumers think they are getting more value from their product by temporarily or even permanently reducing the price in the future. (If $15 becomes the new norm, then $10 looks like a bargain...even though it used to be the norm.)

Well I still disagree with you ,and I still say you are wrong in this one!

Tresob wrote:Scalping occurs because Hasbro and its resellers have undervalued their own product. If a large number of consumers are willing to pay $20 for a particular figure, but TRU only charges $12, then scalpers will take advantage of the difference.

First of all, this is utterly ridiculous. Hasbro has not undervalued their own products. Hasbro has put a target price on their products that they believe is a happy medium between being expensive enough for them to get max profit but being cheap enough that it actually sells. Hasbro makes zero profit if they price their figures too high and they don't sell. They also make zero profit if they sell them all at a loss. So they find a medium and price figure at such.

Suggesting that consumers are willing to pay $20 for a $12 dollar figure is absurd. Thats would be suggesting that you, a consumer, visits a Toys R' Us and sees a figure in ample supply for $20. Having just come from a Walmart, you know that they also have the same figure in ample supply for $12. You decide to pass on the cheaper figure simply because you are there now and so is the figure so you'll just pay $8 dollars more since its easier for you.Perhaps you are a millionare and that is no big deal for you. For the rest of us, nobody will pass up on the $12 figure to pay $20 for the same figure. The reason being is because consumers are NOT willing to pay $20 for a $12 figure.

The figure isn't being undervalued. Scalpers are over-valueing them by buying them all and creating a shortage of supply forcing collectors to pay the over-valued price or not buy them at all. Just because collectors are forced to pay scalper prices doesn't mean they are just willing to pay higher prices under normal circumstances.

Tresob wrote:Scalping is actually helpful to a manufacturer: 1) It tells the manufacturer what their best products are, and 2) it tells the manufacturer what consumers are willing to pay.Scalping is also beneficial to the retailer--the retailer still makes its targeted profit on the scalped item, plus by making individual characters more scarce, it increases the likelihood that consumers will make repeated visits (and eventually buy something other than the HTF figure, if only as a consolation prize).

Ok, fair enough but none of that has anything to do with the conversation. I can certainly see where scalpers would benefit the manufacturer and the retailer, being that they are forking over the suggested retail price for every figure that they buy. But thats not the current conversation. The conversation is about how scalpers are NOT beneficial that the collector.

I too would be forking over the suggested retail price for every figure that I buy if the figure was available for me to buy. But when the figure is sitting in some scalper's closet waiting for somebody to click on the "buy it now" button of an ebay auction at twice the suggested price, I would consider the figure unavailable to me at that point.

Scalpers are now profitting on a figure that the manufacturer and the retailer have already profitted on. I don't care how you spin it, that isn't beneficial to anybody but the scalper. The fact is that scalpers target the popular products, products that most likely all would have been purchased anyway. Hasbro and the retailer would have made their money regardless. But, like I have been stating already in this thread, collector's are poor at exercising self-control. Scalper's prey on that to squeak out their own slice of a pie.

So sure, in your little scenario, you are correct. The manufacturer wins, the retailer wins, and the scalpers win. But the collectors lose. And in your scenario, the collectors are the only ones who lose. As a collector, I don't like being the sole loser in a situation that really shouldn't have any losers.

Not to belabor the point, but nothing is really "lost" in scalping. There is a limited amount of any product on the market. A bona fide scalper does not take any of that product off of the market, they merely purchase it out of the retail market. (Maybe investors take it off the market...but how many people are really hoarding figures to unload twenty years from now? Scalpers need a fast turnaround to maxmize profits.)

Assumably, the goods a scalper purchases will end up in the hands of a collector, or a kid, or some other consumer who wants the product for its own sake. So nothing is "lost."

All that happens to collectors is that some of them discover they have been outbid or priced out of something they wanted. Why get mad at someone with more disposable income paying more money for something he or she really, really wants?

If you never get a toy because of scalpers, all that means is that someone else was willing to pay more money than you. I don't see how that is "overvaluing" the product. If they thought it was worth $20 and you only thought it was worth $12, then they valued it more than you did (even if you desired it more).

But, for all you know, the scalper is selling it to someone who doesn't have the time to get to the toy store or have access to a decent toy aisle. For a consumer who would have to pay more than $20 total in terms of travel or time lost, $20 suddenly seems like a pretty good deal. Or maybe they just have a kid who really wants the toy, and being the big hero that got him his favorite character on his birthday creates added value. You aren't just paying for the cost of plastic and shipping...you are paying for what that plastic and shipping represents.

So those who purchase from a scalper aren't "overvaluing" the figure. They are considering the total cost to themselves and the total benefit of the product, and they decide that the scalper's "finder's fee" is cheaper.

Plus, the difficulty in finding figures has led to innovative alternatives, such as online pre-orders. When retailers realize there is a population of people frustrated with the prices caused by scalping, they react and try to find a way of cutting into the scalpers' market. It's beauty in motion.

You can get any toy you want in this age of eBay and BBTS...you just have to be willing to pay for it.

(For the record, I'm a total bottom feeder and only buy transformers at TRU sales or at Marshalls.)

Tresob wrote:Not to belabor the point, but nothing is really "lost" in scalping. There is a limited amount of any product on the market. A bona fide scalper does not take any of that product off of the market, they merely purchase it out of the retail market. (Maybe investors take it off the market...but how many people are really hoarding figures to unload twenty years from now? Scalpers need a fast turnaround to maxmize profits.)

Assumably, the goods a scalper purchases will end up in the hands of a collector, or a kid, or some other consumer who wants the product for its own sake. So nothing is "lost."

Yes. More of a collector's money is lost. If I wanted a figure that was available at mass retail for $12 but couldn't get it because it was scalped before I had a chance to and then had to pay $20 to get it, I lost $8.

Tresbob wrote:All that happens to collectors is that some of them discover they have been outbid or priced out of something they wanted. Why get mad at someone with more disposable income paying more money for something he or she really, really wants?

If you never get a toy because of scalpers, all that means is that someone else was willing to pay more money than you. I don't see how that is "overvaluing" the product. If they thought it was worth $20 and you only thought it was worth $12, then they valued it more than you did (even if you desired it more).

Perhaps you aren't clear about what I'm saying. I don't fault a collector for buying from a scalper if that is what they choose to do. #1 I fault the collector if they choose to buy from a scalper and then complain about how they got scalped after they made the decision to make the purchase knowing full well what they were doing. #2 In the case of being outbid or priced out by someone, that doesn't apply. The scalper is paying the same price that I would be paying because we are getting the figures from the same place. How is anyone being out bid by a scalper when they are buying the figures from retail just like everybody else is trying to? #3 None of what you said about the collector over-valueing the figure applies to what I said. It isn't the collector who over-values the figure, its the scalper. Its the very nature of how they profit. They buy figures for $12, creates a false sense of supply and demand, and charges $20 knowing that they were only worth $12 strictly for the sense of profit.

Like I said, you can spin it however you want in your brain but the facts are the collector's lose money because of scalpers and I would argue that scalping certainly does it part to ruin, what I consider to be, an otherwise fun hobby. I highly doubt that you would be so apathetic to this issue if we were talking about a life necessity as opposed to some toys. If somebody came along and bought up all of the world's food, not for the purpose of need and consumption for themselves, but soley for the purpose of selling the food back to you at a higher price than what you could have gotten it for yourself and put you in the position of being forced to pay the higher prices or not eat at all, I bet you'd be in the pack of people raising the "BS" flag and crying foul. I bet noone would hear you saying that spending more money and people making more profit is a good thing then.

Like I said from the beginning, for me its a matter of principle. People have the right to scalp and people have the right to buy from scalpers. I don't like the practice and I think it ruins the hobby so I do what I can to not be involved. I would rather not own a figure than buy it from a scalper.

Others don't feel the same way as I do and thats fine. But if people buy from scalpers then they shouldn't have the right to complain about scalping later. And if people want scalping to go away, then they shouldn't buy from scalpers.

Tresob wrote:Not to belabor the point, but nothing is really "lost" in scalping. There is a limited amount of any product on the market. A bona fide scalper does not take any of that product off of the market, they merely purchase it out of the retail market. (Maybe investors take it off the market...but how many people are really hoarding figures to unload twenty years from now? Scalpers need a fast turnaround to maxmize profits.)

Assumably, the goods a scalper purchases will end up in the hands of a collector, or a kid, or some other consumer who wants the product for its own sake. So nothing is "lost."

Yes. More of a collector's money is lost. If I wanted a figure that was available at mass retail for $12 but couldn't get it because it was scalped before I had a chance to and then had to pay $20 to get it, I lost $8.

Tresbob wrote:All that happens to collectors is that some of them discover they have been outbid or priced out of something they wanted. Why get mad at someone with more disposable income paying more money for something he or she really, really wants?

If you never get a toy because of scalpers, all that means is that someone else was willing to pay more money than you. I don't see how that is "overvaluing" the product. If they thought it was worth $20 and you only thought it was worth $12, then they valued it more than you did (even if you desired it more).

Perhaps you aren't clear about what I'm saying. I don't fault a collector for buying from a scalper if that is what they choose to do. #1 I fault the collector if they choose to buy from a scalper and then complain about how they got scalped after they made the decision to make the purchase knowing full well what they were doing. #2 In the case of being outbid or priced out by someone, that doesn't apply. The scalper is paying the same price that I would be paying because we are getting the figures from the same place. How is anyone being out bid by a scalper when they are buying the figures from retail just like everybody else is trying to? #3 None of what you said about the collector over-valueing the figure applies to what I said. It isn't the collector who over-values the figure, its the scalper. Its the very nature of how they profit. They buy figures for $12, creates a false sense of supply and demand, and charges $20 knowing that they were only worth $12 strictly for the sense of profit.

Like I said, you can spin it however you want in your brain but the facts are the collector's lose money because of scalpers and I would argue that scalping certainly does it part to ruin, what I consider to be, an otherwise fun hobby. I highly doubt that you would be so apathetic to this issue if we were talking about a life necessity as opposed to some toys. If somebody came along and bought up all of the world's food, not for the purpose of need and consumption for themselves, but soley for the purpose of selling the food back to you at a higher price than what you could have gotten it for yourself and put you in the position of being forced to pay the higher prices or not eat at all, I bet you'd be in the pack of people raising the "BS" flag and crying foul. I bet noone would hear you saying that spending more money and people making more profit is a good thing then.

Like I said from the beginning, for me its a matter of principle. People have the right to scalp and people have the right to buy from scalpers. I don't like the practice and I think it ruins the hobby so I do what I can to not be involved. I would rather not own a figure than buy it from a scalper.

Others don't feel the same way as I do and thats fine. But if people buy from scalpers then they shouldn't have the right to complain about scalping later. And if people want scalping to go away, then they shouldn't buy from scalpers.

the deluxes are going for 16 now ,and they are liable to increase them more later this year. voyagers are going from 20 to 23 now. the price inflation is getting out of hand. scalping is also contributing that the retailers are increasing their prices as well.

SpacerAM2 wrote:the deluxes are going for 16 now ,and they are liable to increase them more later this year. voyagers are going from 20 to 23 now. the price inflation is getting out of hand. scalping is also contributing that the retailers are increasing their prices as well.

I don't know if I agree with that. Ultimately, Tresob was right about manufactures and retailers being helped by scalpers. At the end of the day, scalpers walk into a store and pay full price for a bunch of figures. As I said earlier, the manufacturers and retailers set their prices based on what an acceptable profit margin is based on what price will get the figures sold. All of the profit that Hasbro has decided is acceptable is being made off of the scalpers. Then the scalper turnaround and sell the figures to collectors for more profit. I can't say that I know specific numbers but I'd be willing to bet that in most cases, scalpers make more profit off of figures that they sell than Hasbro does.

At any rate, I doubt Hasbro cares specifically who buys their figures as long as they get bought. When it comes to scalping, everybody wins except us the collectors. I would say that scalping is not impacting the price point from Hasbro. More likely, increased production and transportation costs are driving up the prices of the figures more than anything.

I should correct my argument. Something is lost in scalping, only it's not really a "thing." What is lost is the pleasure that a consumer derives from discovering an item in a store for themselves. I imagine quite a few of us get a little dopamine rush when we find that toy on the shelf that wasn't there before.

So if your interest is more in the thrill of finding something, then, yes, scalping does deprive collectors of that experiential value. That also is a point specifically about TRU, rather than a tangent about economic theory.

That being said, I don't agree that a consumer really "loses" eight dollars when they buy at a higher price, because the consumer obviously thought the $20 was worth less to them than the toy. You only buy a toy if you think it has more value than the $20 in your pocket. If you thought the $20 was more valuable, you wouldn't have parted with it. Obviously, the give up the money, but you said yourself that consumers have no right to complain if they buy from a scalper.

I'm also not sure I agree with the analogy about foodstuffs. I would reassert that a blackmarket only arises when the retail market undervalues its product, even if it is food. Usually things like charity kick in to provide food to those who can't afford it. Or, in the case of toys, think about Toys for Tots. There you have people willingly paying retail to donate toys to people who can't afford it.

What's lost is the opportunity to own something for someone who is on a budget and can't afford to pay scalpers prices. This is fact which is why scalping is illegal when it comes to necessary items like food, gasoline etc.For a toy, it's ok if you are priced out of the market, it's just a toy and you dont need it, but make no mistake something is lost...it's just that because its a toy its ok that its lost. It's really a shame and frustrating getting priced out of things, and yes, they are overvalued often. Not by the buyer, but by all the sellers who all have the same overpriced items on ebay that the masses aren't buying because they are overvalued. Then same buyer cant buy it at the store because all of the "oportunists" have them on ebay, many times acquired through unfair, unscrupulous practice.Legal....yet borderline pretty sucky.

GuyIncognito wrote:The only real difference between "retail" and "scalping" is scale.

Well I suppose thats not totally wrong, I think thats a very vague way of looking at it. On one hand, I'm giving my money to the people who made the product. I am supporting them so that they may continue to put out products in line with this hobby that I enjoy.

On the other hand, I am giving my money to a person whose only goal is to rip me off for his/her own personal gain. He or she will never do anything now or in the future to further feed my hobby. If anything, my hobby would be slowed. Since I would have to pay more per figure, I would now be able to afford less figures.

I would rather enjoy the experience of finding a hot figure on the store shelves and pay hasbro and the retailers for their services than pay somebody else to rip me off.