Re: Well,

EPIC FAIL. It's called logic wifi. Use it.

It's not the basis behind murders I am arguing, but the fact they occur. One can take the logic that since we allow deadly weapons (Guns, Knives, etc) in this country, that we facilitate the act of murder. Outlaw all deadly weapons and it won't happen. The same failed logic of spying on everyone and terrorism won't happen. It's a failed thought process absent of reason and logic.

Same for driving. Let's remove cars off the road and outlaw driving. We'll save 40,000 lives a year.

It's not the basis behind murders I am arguing, but the fact they occur.

Sure it is, thats exactly what you are arguing. I think you have even confused yourself this time! Let me explain why that statement is even dumber than your first. Terrorism doesnt just "occur", murder does. Car crashes also just "occur" by accident, nothing preventable about them. Terrorism on the other hand IS preventable by utilizing extensive intelligence gathering and a little vacation for those caught to club Gitmo'. This country has been safe for the past 8 years directly due to the work of our intelligence and military services, that is undeniable.--

No you fail again. You are arguing the fundamentals of murder. Murders can just occur or be planned. Mass murders such as school shootings are often planned. Car accidents usually are as the name says, a mistake. Still, one can prevent either from EVER HAPPENING.

- Outlaw Guns- Outlaw Knives- Outlaw anything deemed a weapon

Murder is lessened and decreases significantly

Outlaw Driving

- 40,000 Lives saved a year.

See, the government can play big brother and we can all live safe and sound in a paddy room?

As for Terrorism being stopped by gitmo. My magic rock stops terrorism. I do not know anyone who has been a victim of it. Matter of fact, I will sell you this rock. It wards of tigers too. I haven't seen a tiger in the U.S. before but I swear, this rock will keep you safe. Stupid logic ay? Same as above, you can take preventative measures, but there's a fine line between prevention and insanity. The government could outlaw ALL THINGS dangerous, OUTLAW DRIVING, and big brother the hell out of our lives. If thats the kind of repression you want, you should be living elsewhere. I on the other hand am a grown adult. I would rather look after my own affairs and not have the government do it.

If you for one minute believe NSA spying and Gitmo keeps us safe, you're naive. If anything, it serves as a rallying point for MORE TERRORISM. Look what happens when they capture you. Better to die, than end up in that joint. As per the loss leader of no attacks in 8 years. Terrorism happens every day in America right? Even before the NSA wiretapping. Damn, i can't flip on the news and recall not seeing a moments notice without it.

Yawn, you still dont seem to get it. Sure, you can toss around the cliched rhetoric as much as you want, however it still doesnt quite add up. Preventing murder is impossible. Preventing car accidents is impossible. However, preventing terrorism IS largely possible! While nothing is ever 100%, by following the simple few steps this government can help keep this country secure.

1) Use every resource at hand to infiltrate terror cells and gather intelligence

2) Kill as many terrorist as possible

3) Waterboard the heck out of those we have captured to get information that will save American lives.

4) Coordinate and share intelligence with other 'like minded' countries in the world who also value the lives of their citizens

5) Wash, rinse, repeat until the vermin have been eradicated from the earth--

No Preventing murder and car accidents is NOT IMPOSSIBLE. You don't read well, do you.

Outlaw GunsOutlaw KnivesOutlaw anything that can be construed as a weapon

Murder might not be eliminated but it damn well will be decreased.

Outlaw Driving

No more 40,000 a yr fatalities in car wrecks.

Simple ay? As for terrorism. It didn't stop Timothy Mcveigh. It didnt stop the unibomber. It didnt stop Anthrax Mailer. You can use any type of FORCED / Coerced method you want. All studies show, people will say anything under such circumstances. I am sure if I was breaking the bones in your body, you'd tell me you were a skirt wearing cross dresser who molested kids on your spare time. Should I yield that information credible. You admitted to it under duress. But hey, you said it right.

Once again FAILED LOGIC and FAILED THINKING on your part. On your basis, we should use ALL MEANS POSSIBLE to be kept safe. As a retort, OUTLAW GUNS, WEAPONS, and CARS. Then you can prevent 50-60,000 deaths a year. If one cant drive. One cant die in a motor vehicle accident. If one does not have weapons, it sure becomes hard to shoot a school full of kids or go on a mass murdering spree with your fist.

How about it bud? Outlaw everything. It works right? On your basis, the government should be big brother. How about this one. You move to the MOST REPRESSIVE COUNTRY since you feel this way and tell me how safe you feel. I hear China, Russia, Iran have openings for new citizens. You after all want someone else to be your watch dog. So how about that first plane ride to renouncing your citizenship and proving us how living life under a repressive regime feels. They keep you safe, so you shouldn't mind the lack of freedoms.

We know what you are referring to. You said Gitmo. I don't see many Timothy McVeigh types there. American Terrorist have caused more acts on U.S. soil than foreigners. How about instead of a justice system, we just beat confessions out of people. Sure save tax payers a HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY if we just beat people into admitting things. Screw the courts. After all, Americans got locked up in Gitmo too. Why not just get forced confessions, throw away the key, and consider it a job well done. I say we start with you. How about a little torture to admitting a heinous crime so you can get locked away in jail for years and years? Sound good?

People conveniently forget that we were attacked under GWB.They like to say "but but, we've been safe for 8 years."Well guess what, Bush knew it was coming and did NOTHING!Condi: "I believe the title of the memo was "OBL Determined to Attack Inside US."

My magic rock stops terrorism. I do not know anyone who has been a victim of it. Matter of fact, I will sell you this rock. It wards of tigers too. I haven't seen a tiger in the U.S. before but I swear, this rock will keep you safe.

Well yours is the copy of the original. There is only ONE TRUE MAGIC rock. Yours is less shiny and powerful. While it might work on limited circumstances, only my rock is guaranteed to ward off evil spirits, tigers, terrorists, monkeys, and dinosaurs.

People conveniently forget that we were attacked under GWB.They like to say "but but, we've been safe for 8 years."Well guess what, Bush knew it was coming and did NOTHING!Condi: "I believe the title of the memo was "OBL Determined to Attack Inside US."

Exactly.

As far as us being "safe" since then, I think that's in spite of him, not because of him.

Re: Well,

Terrorism Does not happen every Day.Terrorism in the U.S. has killed 3000 people, one time. 2001.Terrorism can be argued to not just be a massive attack and there by making the above not true.

See this is where it gets trick. I can argue a School shooting is terrorism. After all, Kid with gun goes in for an ideological reason, to cause fear and harm others en masses. By all definitions, that's terrorism. So if you want to go on that ground, we've had about 5 or 6 TERRORIST attacks on American Soil by our own hands.

Now that also applies to work place shooting. The minute said Nutjob comes in wielding a gun to kill many, you have the rudimentary definition of terrorism.

On a Grander scale, Timothy McVeigh, Unibomber, Eco Terrorism, etc are American style acts that more closely fit the bill.

So in close summation. We've had World Trade center #1 which killed like 8 people in the 1990s and Sept 11th that killed 3000.

On the flip Side we've had all those ones I listed above by Americans. NSA wiretapping is going to solve those events how?

Best yet, I hope this systematic and timely explanation sinks in. Why do you want big brother in your life. Is the government's job to keep you safe?

If so. Outlaw cares. Save 40,000 People's lives a year. If no cars, then people can't die in Automobile Wrecks. If no weapons, people can't go on shooting sprees and murders. Hard as hell to kill 20 people with your fists or a heavy stick. Hell, outlaw guns and knives, bows, and anything deadly. Watch how quickly murder takes a plunge. After all, you want the government to do everything for you. So on your rationale, it's their job to keep you safe at ALL COST.

No Preventing murder and car accidents is NOT IMPOSSIBLE. You don't read well, do you.

Outlaw GunsOutlaw KnivesOutlaw anything that can be construed as a weapon

Your comments are getting dumber as this discussion progresses. If you take away knives and guns people will resort to using sticks or broken glass to fight/hurt others. It has been shown time and time again that outlawing guns has no effect on safety. A wise man once said:

"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"

Ponder that while you attempt to come up with your next inane statement.

Another classically cliched statement! Lets examine why thats just not true. If millions of people stopped having access to cars, how would they get around? Assuming they all took buses, you would see bus fatalities increase dramatically! Assuming they all walked, the influx of millions of addition people onto the roadways would cause an increase in trampling related fatalities! You see, your simple minded comparisons dont stack up with reality.

We know what you are referring to. You said Gitmo. I don't see many Timothy McVeigh types there.

Once again your ignorance shines through. Guantanamo Bay is a facility for illegal enemy combatants, not US citizens! As for Timothy McVeigh 'types', they would be incarcerated in US prisons (as they should).--

3) Waterboard the heck out of those we have captured to get information that will save American lives.

Until you f**k up and grab someone who's completely innocent, and that person makes up some bogus info just to get the torture to stop.

If you capture an illegal fighter with an AK47 on the battlefield, there is no way he is innocent. If you raid a suspected terrorist camp and you find people with bomb making materials and more AK47s, there is no way they are innocent. If you arrest a man with a bomb strapped to his chest as he attempts to enter a house of worship, there is no way he is innocent. All the filthy inhuman cockroaches I just mentioned deserve to have far worse than waterboarding done to them, and they are lucky that instead of being killed on site (preferably in the most painful way possible) they get an all expense paid vacation to sunny Camp Gitmo.

What some people seem to (quickly) forget is how humanely we treat these animals. Most other countries wouldnt be nearly as nice, and thats an understatement.--

You know nothing, certainly not what I was referring to. Gitmo is an equal opportunity lock up facility. Any illegal combatant, from any country, of any religion, is eligible for a stay there. If you are not an American citizen, and you are caught fighting our forces, count on getting a suntan in Cuba.--

Once again your ignorance shines through. Guantanamo Bay is a facility for illegal enemy combatants, not US citizens! As for Timothy McVeigh 'types', they would be incarcerated in US prisons (as they should).

Now what about all the US citizens in other "terrorism" prisons run by the CIA?

Once again your ignorance shines through. Guantanamo Bay is a facility for illegal enemy combatants, not US citizens! As for Timothy McVeigh 'types', they would be incarcerated in US prisons (as they should).

Now what about all the US citizens in other "terrorism" prisons run by the CIA?

Um you're just hilarious. If you outlaw guns, knives, and deadly weapons.. you basically have Europe. A continent with a VERY LOW MURDER RATE and CRIME RATE in many of it's countries. Strange huh. People learn not to kill one another. As for outlaws having guns, that's why you make it a stiff ass penalty to own one. Caught not turning in your gun, it's life imprisonment. Let's see how well that bodes for people having them =).

Not that I believe we should take away guns.. but you're logic is so far fetched and IGNORANT it isn't funny.

............. And now you FINALLY GET IT through your head. YOU ARE NEVER SAFE IN LIFE. No matter what you do, there is risk. Finally, it sinks in. So what you are saying and finally agree with me, is you have to take a risk to live life. Do you want the government STEPPING IN EVERY ASPECT of your life, to try to keep you safe. You seem to think they should. Terrorism is a MINOR THING in the over all scheme. It has happened MORE AT THE HANDS of ordinary Americans than by foreigners. So what do you suggest. We go on a wild goose chase? Obviously, that doesn't work. We've had 6 or 7 school shootings since 2001. Those are acts of terrorism by all definition. Some kid with his fucked up ideology grabs a gun, wants to prove to the world something, and goes on a shooting spree. His motive? To instill terror, fear, and incite violence to make others modify their way of life. That's the whole definition of terrorism. It's not how many you kill, but the lasting changes you force because of your actions. So what will your NSA wiretapping do to stop that? o wait, nothing. We've prob had 20 or 30 school shootings in a decade. So how come those are still happening? Listen, you won't EVER UNDERSTAND but you stepping foot outside is a risk. Live life, and go about your normal routine. If you want to remain safe, build a padded room and never leave home.

Otherwise, recognize you don't need Big Brother in your life. The odds a terrorist get you are FAR OUTNUMBERED by the fact you could walk down the street and get hit by a car, murdered, or die in a traffic accident.

That's the whole point. You finally just proved what I have been saying ALL ALONG to be true. Now to see if ytou ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND THIS SENTENCE.

Jose Padilla, and a few others were American Citizens held as enemy combatants without charges. What you don't seem to get bud is you CANNOT HOLD PEOPLE INDEFINITELY, Torture them, and use coerced confessions as hard evidence and fact. Most of what gets said is beaten confessions that ANYONE WOULD say just to make it stop. I am sure if I took a baseball bat and beat you senseless, you'd admit to whatever I wanted to hear, just to make me quit. See that logic? Probably not, you're not the brightest bulb. Anyway, enemy combatant is a sham. Give people a trial. If you can't hold them accountable here. Send them to the Hague for an international Trial.

We gave Hitler and the Nazis a Trial. They killed 6 million. We gave the Christian Murders known as the Bosnian Serbs a Trial for MASSACRING 200,000 Muslim Boys and Men in Serbia at the Hague. So we can do the same to some punk ass terrorists.

AH yes, logic wins again.

P.S. Why bother sticking Timothy McVeigh in a U.S. Court. Seems we toss US Citizens in Gitmo. As I said before, lets just beat ALL ACCUSED PEOPLE in the U.S. Think of it like this. If we BEAT a confession out of people, it'll save tax payers COUNTLESS dollars on going to court. Screw justice. Screw fair trial. Screw taking the high road. I say we toss Timothy Mcveigh and all criminals into jail once accused. NO trial. Only forced confessions. Justice is overrated.... In case you didn't get this part of my rant, its called sarcasm pandering to your idiotic statements.

Ya, it's called War. We have captured some of the WORST GENOCIDAL PEOPLE in history and gave them fair trials. You know why? Civilized people don't stoop to the level of the criminals they go after. Maybe you do, because you aren't civilized. Normal human beings still believe in courts. We gave the Nazis who massacred 6 million a Trial. We gave Milosevic a trial after his forces were responsible for MASSACRING 200,000 Muslim Boys and Men.

Guess what? It doesn't matter the crime. If you don't want to deal with the headache, send them to the Hague. There are international courts for a reason.

I presume that you are American to say things like that, because if you are an European like me (although I am now in Asia) you would know that this isn't true. maybe yes in Scandinavian countries but not in your usual Western Europe countries.

Ya, it's called War. We have captured some of the WORST GENOCIDAL PEOPLE in history and gave them fair trials. You know why? Civilized people don't stoop to the level of the criminals they go after. Maybe you do, because you aren't civilized. Normal human beings still believe in courts. We gave the Nazis who massacred 6 million a Trial. We gave Milosevic a trial after his forces were responsible for MASSACRING 200,000 Muslim Boys and Men.

Guess what? It doesn't matter the crime. If you don't want to deal with the headache, send them to the Hague. There are international courts for a reason.

Ah yes... fail fail o so fail.

What, America has put some of WORST GENOCIDAL PEOPLE on trial? Did you read you history book? The amount of Nazi Germany scientists and Japanese ones too that escaped trial during the aftermath of World War 2 was staggering. If you read book others than your history book, you know you are DEAD WRONG!

Jose Padilla, and a few others were American Citizens held as enemy combatants without charges.

Ignorance again! I love it.

quote:On August 16, 2007, José Padilla was found guilty, by a federal jury, of charges against him that he conspired to kill people in an overseas jihad and to fund and support overseas terrorism. He was widely described in media as a suspect of planning to build and explode a "dirty bomb" in the United States, but he was not convicted on this charge.

On January 22, 2008, Padilla was sentenced by Judge Marcia G. Cooke of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida to 17 years and four months in prison.

Now unless I am misreading that, it sure sounds like he was tried, convicted, and sentenced due to his crimes. Not entirely sure where you came up with your theories however....