To understand a belief system you need to understand the social processes within which that system is embedded. The mere existence of a web site
devoted to "the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret
societies, political scandals, new world order, etc." - as per ATS home page - requires to understand those social processes, and this speaks tons
about a serious divide between society and the government ruling that society.

It tells you the story of people distrusting their governments, it tells you the story of people feeling oppressed by their governments. Tells you the
story about a lack of fundamental values, both in the personal and social sphere.

There is an interplay between beliefs and identity, and those who wish to control society know this. Thus, it is more than natural that those who wish
to control a society devote themselves to first control, design, and influence on those beliefs. Experts in marketing do also know that and their
entire business is just that: to make believe.
Owners of mass media do also know that. Politicians, priests, popes, religious leaders, too. And aliens.

In my view, it is less harmful to believe in aliens than to believe in a corrupt leader. It is less harmful to believe in fairy tales than to believe
in constitutions and laws who, actually, are more imaginary than real in what they state as "sacred" rights of people. Better to believe in magic
than in big science, when that big science has proven totally
unable to stop injustice and suffering. A science, by the way, which is not free from the curse of finance and money.

Again, there is an interplay between beliefs and identity: identity is what is at stake here. An identity crisis is what you face, at a global scale.
Globalization is all about that, making you behave as if the world you now live in is a totally new one. Dissolution of identity is what you need to
dissolve an entire civilization the easy way. Dehistorization is what you do to mine and debase cultural values. Giving aliens the attribution of
historical facts is a good example of
dehistorization. Debunking also plays a role here: to arrive at conclusions about facts that, by virtue of debunking, are as ephemeral as the
newspapers, in order to leave the person devoid of any historical belief.

As for FL, we believe the dislocation of language and language events causes the paradigm shift we are currently witnessing. You have a nice example
in that Star Trek series that seems to have exerted a vast influence on people here. The most terrible weapon in that series is not that teleportation
technology, neither the warp drive, nor the photon torpedoes, nor the phasers. Not even time traveling. The worst one is just that universal
translator thing... that allows you to communicate (that is, contaminate and being contaminated) with alien individuals... saving you the time and
effort to learn their languages. Language is more than just a set of grammatical rules: it embeds culture. What would have we learned about, say,
Sumerians, if we were to just scan the cuneiform tablets and get a translation? Would we be able to grasp the deep meaning of those words? Would we be
able to learn about their cultural values and religious beliefs? What about the English language? Haven't the native speakers lost more than what
they've gained in terms of identity?

Again, to understand a belief system you need to understand the social processes within which that system is embedded. The best thing would have been
to travel back to the Sumerian times, if you wish to understand them, but please: do not carry with you that universal translator thing. Laziness does
not pay off.

A shift in paradigm on behalf of just a few is not shift at all: it is a collapse.

originally posted by: Direne
To understand a belief system you need to understand the social processes within which that system is embedded.

like funerary cannibalism or haley-bopp ships. isolated subgroups within an overarching societal structure can often produce some pretty far out
sports when it comes to belief systems.

The mere existence of a web site devoted to "the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as
conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, etc." - as per ATS home page - requires to understand those
social processes, and this speaks tons about a serious divide between society and the government ruling that society.

alternatively, it provides a vent for frustrated subgroups operating within an aggressively homogenous and increasingly secular society. it might also
be a good place to tinker with ways to flip the hold-outs.

It tells you the story of people distrusting their governments, it tells you the story of people feeling oppressed by their governments. Tells
you the story about a lack of fundamental values, both in the personal and social sphere.

the values remain mostly static, save that they shift their platform from a religiously based moralistic structure to a humanistic ethical one. bugs
the # out of a lot of people, though. the dynamics involved in that shift are sure worth tinkering with, and cross-applying to "problematic" cultures.

In my view, it is less harmful to believe in aliens than to believe in a corrupt leader.

i fail to see how a delusion employed by a corrupt leader to leverage human susceptibility to fairy tales is any better than the straight-up stalin
approach. i guess it gives you an end run around a lot of resistance.

Better to believe in magic than in big science, when that big science has proven totally
unable to stop injustice and suffering.

not perfect, but we're all living longer in the aggregate and far less likely to perish in conflicts or by disease. besides, the soft sciences are
whacking it into the net when it comes to getting a grip on why we mistreat each other and how to break out of those collective behavioral patterns.
it all mostly comes down to dissolving artificial distinctions through exposure and inculcated empathic response, not pretty stories.

Again, there is an interplay... Dissolution of identity is what you need to dissolve an entire civilization the easy way.

identity isn't exclusively drawn from group identification. it's drawn from behavioral patterns, inborn temperament, personal connections, a variety
of sources so small and yet so unique. if cultural homogenization is the endgame, there's gonna be a real rude wake-up call when the persistence of
individual value kicks against those cultural pressures like a methed-up mule.

Dehistorization is what you do to mine and debase cultural values. Giving aliens the attribution of historical facts is a good example of
dehistorization. Debunking also plays a role here: to arrive at conclusions about facts that, by virtue of debunking, are as ephemeral as the
newspapers, in order to leave the person devoid of any historical belief.

for someone repping a group mining the ancient aliens vein for all its worth, you don't seem to think much of it.

You have a nice example in that Star Trek series that seems to have exerted a vast influence on people here. The most terrible weapon in that
series is not that teleportation technology, neither the warp drive, nor the photon torpedoes, nor the phasers. Not even time traveling. The worst one
is just that universal translator thing... that allows you to communicate (that is, contaminate and being contaminated) with alien
individuals...

that sounds a lot like weaponized language. but look, i know words encompass a spectrum of meaning unique to language of origin. does that mean that
an approximate understanding can't be reached without being fully and personally versed in any given second language? of course not. chomsky might
have been wrong about universal grammar, but certain properties ARE universal to humanity.

...for someone repping a group mining the ancient aliens vein for all its worth, you don't seem to think much of it

So true, and trying to promote preposterous versions of it such as the Sumerians having an interest in two alien Moons. It always seems to me there's
a sort of double bluff going on, in that any real consideration of ancient alien activity in human development has been thwarted by prior promotion of
easily ridiculed and debunkable versions, such that no serious discussion can ever take place or out come the memes and jokes, both sides of the
current debate such as it isn't being played.

stitchin took a hard left into the ditch decades ago, and the buggy just keeps rolling end over end.

do you think the debate is intentionally tied up in double-binds, or is it just a by-product of miscalibrated pattern recognition? if the former, do
you think fl is tying a few more knots into the tangle? if so, why?

as far as i can tell, they only got on the ancient aliens kick after the advent of this thread. it's no stretch to draw a pattern from that. it's
difficult not to conclude that it must have something to do with their interaction with this site, and that their interest is cynical and
exploitative in nature.

There has been suggestion Sitchin was financed and promoted by some Rothschild or other, i wouldn't vouch for the veracity of that but it would make
sense as any serious consideration of beneficial alien intervention in humanities past would seriously undermine Israel's grip on the Protestant
mentality, in that it would be entirely contradictory to the Enochian disinformation literature which rewrote earlier Mesopotamian tradition of
positive contact with Divine sages, turning the whole thing on it's head into the origins of evil and the Fallen Angels.

So yes i'm pretty sure what passes for current debate is exactly as the prevailing powers would have it, to be seen only as escapist nonsense and
fantasy, FL obviously have an interest in how that works at the sociological level and if they encourage interest in Solomonic and Enochian tradition
it's pretty easy to see were they're coming from.

But, you don't believe about that Enoch traveling in an angelic spaceship and all that, do you? Believing a man can walk on water is also fantasy, as
per the laws of physics. We need to attach ourselves to those laws. See, those laws do not rule out the existence of aliens or lakes. But they do rule
out the existence of any alien or Galileans walking on water.

However, they do rule out the existence of ghosts, angels, and demons such that the debate on whether angels can fall is automatically ruled out. The
good thing about physics is that it does not rule out the existence of people believing in ghosts, angels, and demons. Or dragons, kings and queens.
That belongs to fairy tales and folklore.

I don't believe any aspect of Enochian tradition but i do believe that the walking on water is derivative of the Goddess
Nanse daughter of Enki and protector of fishermen, and when it comes to Nanse i will
always believe anything and everything.

Why should we need to attach ourselves to laws, you don't think the Universe is capable of doing it's job properly?

The problem with Jovian empiricism is that even though it is the largest planet in the solar system and we cannot avoid laws of causality, there are
also three hefty sized planets that extend considerably beyond it that do not concern themselves with laws at all, indeed in the case of Saturn that
is seen as capable of undermining and causing to collapse any false Jovian premise over time.

The point being then that no Law of whatever can harm a ghost as they care not for them, a point worth bearing in mind if you attempt to emulate
Sisig.

No. You just won't. You will believe what you critically analyze. Otherwise you will end up believing not just in the mere existence of kings and
queens, but actually in kings and queens themselves. And those are totally different things.

Look, the most intelligent among humans, those who invented efficient blue light-emitting diodes which has
enabled bright and energy-saving white light sources (Nobel Prize, 2014), those who developed super-resolved fluorescence microscopy (Nobel Prize,
2014) or that other guy who made an analysis of market power and regulation (Nobel Prize, 2014) were awarded a diploma and a medal in a most stupid
ceremony, banquet included.

According to the web site of the organization responsible for this strange ceremony, at the Prize Award Ceremony in Stockholm, presentation speeches
extoll the Laureates and their discovery or work, after which His Majesty the King of Sweden hands each Laureate a diploma and a medal. Wait... His
Majesty the King of Sweden??? Does Physics, Chemistry, Biology, or Medicine have nothing to say about that retarded concept called His Majesty
of?

Physicists in the land of fairy tales. What kind of science is that? Have debunkers not yet debunked the alleged supernatural powers of this His
Majesty or that Her Majesty? Not yet? Why? A conspiracy? No, worse: Tradition.

Their Majesties the King and Queen and other members of the Royal Family of Sweden are guests of honour at both the Prize Award Ceremony and the
Banquet. Yes, a banquet. With kings, queens, dragons, knights, and astrologers. Tradition, you see.

Your Tradition seems to be based on disinformation, unless you and the most intelligent among humans do actually believe in Majesties. That would
explain why injustice and poverty is chronic here, despite your blue light-emitting diodes which has enabled bright and energy-saving white light
sources. By the way, some of those laureated are known aliens debunkers, yet this did not prevent them from attending a banquet with a couple of
deranged guys who believe themselves they are the King or Queen of Sweden. Baffling.

So that's the situation: the only ones seemingly not having a problem of identity are kings, queens, and bankers. And you wish to explore the galaxy?
Sure, you'll do. As cargo.

This is what I want you to understand: you are free to believe in Nanse, but if that belief does not serve to make the world a better place for the
millions of your fellow persons then something is wrong with both you and Nanse.

a reply to: Digital_Reality
Ah no need to be sarcastic. So basically what your saying is that there just more people who happen to do online things, or what did you think I was
the only one goading people or trolling, I can assure you most trolls dont even know there trolls, I know when I am trolling however, which is more
then I can say for others.

But I really dont know who your talking about even in that sarcastic way you went about it, except that Direne person because I think she was the one
I was talking about walls earlier and her flawed theory on gray dwarfs. The others, sorry no clue. But whatever you know. See you all on this thread
some other year most likely. Or not.

This is what I want you to understand: you are free to believe in Nanse, but if that belief does not serve to make the world a better place for
the millions of your fellow persons then something is wrong with both you and Nanse.

Well, it's like this, Nanse was the Goddess of social justice, her husband was a tax collector that therefore provided the basis of her welfare
programme, note that translated into a very real welfare system in the Cities were her cult was prominent.

She is concerned for the orphan and concerned for the widow. She does not forget the man who helps others, she is a mother for the orphan; Nance,
a carer for the widow, who always finds advice for the debt-slave; the lady who gives protection for refugees. She seeks out a place for the weak. She
swells his collecting basket for him; she makes his collecting vessel profitable for him. For the righteous maiden who has taken her path, Nance
chooses a young man of means. Nance raises a secure house like a roof over the widow who could not remarry

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Yes that's nice, but its a story. Its nice to believe, but has no basis on real life because real life has to go on. Give it a bit of time and that
nice Goddess of social justice becomes a deluded alice who keeps frogeting which pill is supposed to make her big and which small, and the nice tax
man becomes scrounge Mcduck and from then on its embedded into society, a half story continued on for all eternity, and the tea parties begin with
the fancy cake and ribbons and everything, while outside the world goes on, its merely social conditioning and habit.

Or better yet save yourself the trouble and worship the great Pikachu as it will be about as effective, and 100x more useful in this day and age. Or
better yet, a rock. Though that may be to complicated and enlightened as far as religions and believes go.

I find your understanding of what constitutes real life severely limited, what i am suggesting is that spiritual influence is the primary factor in
determining what course society shall follow, if that spiritual influence is ignored or not appreciated then indeed events will unfold according to
the cynical progression you outlined, but all said and done Nanse was Enki's daughter and he only ever created what most would take for real life.

Really the only true God is Crom, and this is because he is the only one who has ever done what he promised. He has promised that he will never
answer prayer. And its true as no prayer has been answered by Crom ever and never will be. He has promised to not lift a finger to help anybody for
any reason, and its true Crom has never helped anybody ever. It is said that Crom has never helped, or promised, or given anything to any mortal at
anytime anywhere, and that believe and worship in him will bring you nothing what so ever.

Therefore that makes Crom the only God that has done exactly what he is supposed to represent and stand for.

I could go on, but as you can see. All the gods have promised and said and done many things and are supposed to represent many things, but have
never done any of that and its highly likely that it all just deluded believes that exist in peoples heads. But Crom is the only god who had
delivered on the things he said, he wills, or he stands for, and is all about...Those things being absolutely nothing at all. Which by definition
makes him the most real God ever in all of creation, and the most honest and trustworthy. The only God to count on to do what all gods do...
Absolutely nothing.

So of all the mythological makeover deities out there which people have worshiped and who do and have done absolutely nothing at all for humanity or
anybody ever in all of time, well out of all that, Crom is the only one you could trust to do what he says.

Though I think Pikachu may give him a run for his money one day some centuries form now when the cult of Pika takes off and becomes a world wide
religion. But till then, your free to believe and worship anything you want. Just dont be surprised when its all just makebelive.

Not at all, the Sumerians didn't build a House for Nanse simply to pray for social justice, they established and honoured what she represented and
carried out the programme themselves, they didn't build a House for Ninurta and pray for farming, but carried out an agricultural programme
themselves, they didn't build a House for Inanna and pray for sex...etc.

Crom is simply a parody of Nordic tradition which actually went about their religion in a quite similar manner to the Sumerians, it's not about make
believe it's about make happen.

I only over compensate in having to state the obvious to the ignorant.

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