From the info I found in about 2 minutes of searching online, a fairly reputable (looking) website says that the cost of offering a Toll-Free service on calls is somewhere between $.02 and $.08 per minute.

That seems small to me, especially if it sways toward the $.02 side.

However, if people really DO have to sit on hold for an hour (or more) per call, I can see where this could start to get expensive.

Maybe it is a cheapskate penny-pinching thing.

Maybe they have eliminated too many call-answerers on the Customer Service side of things that their hold times went up too high and now their phone bill is out of control... could be.

Eh their hold times can't be any worse than when the game launched, it was insanely bad then, which is fairly normal for the launch of a game.

The issue though isn't the fact that people may get charged to call ( although I can see why it would be for some), its not that it burns up minutes, its that BioWare/EA is a major company and as such its just ridiculous that they have dropped their toll free support number. Its not about the money ( at least for me), its about the fact that a major company who has been hammered since day one for really bad customer support, is doing something else to make it possibly bad for their customers.

Secondary to that is if you remove the ability for your customers to get in game service and then keep telling them to call when they use email, you really shouldn't be surprised that your toll free number is getting heavy use. It would be similar to building a car that can't turn right and then complaining because everyone turns left.

Psychlon, I will also say that continuing to point out that SOE has done something as a reason for it being ok for BioWare to do, is just not a good stance ( although I realize it has been somewhat tongue and cheek) . SOE has one of the worst names in the industry when it comes to MMO's, they are the poster child for how NOT to run your MMO's and make your customers happy. If at any point as a company you make a decision and you can say " Well SOE did it that way", you probably want to stop, turn around, and go the complete opposite direction.

TLDR: The issue isn't about money or minutes, its the fact a major company dropped it toll free support line, a standard for even the smallest of businesses.

its about the fact that a major company who has been hammered since day one for really bad customer support, is doing something else to make it possibly bad for their customers.

I don't see it being a big deal tbh. I know it doesn't affect me at all (have always had to pay when making calls to CS) but still I can't see how it would impact that many people. That said though I do agree with the above. For a company whose CS is so dire ANY reduction in quality/standards is a terrible idea. They should be working on improving their CS rep not further rendering it a laughing stock.

Now I willingly jumped on this bandwagon due to personal experience having dingdongs with TOR's CS department and often being left baffled at their ineptitude. It's sad but any thread bemoaning TOR's CS dept and/or Community Management departments will always have a post or 6 made by me. Yes, i'm that predictable

Last edited by Jamos77; 2013-01-10 at 10:11 PM.

SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

Originally Posted by edgecrusher

There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

The issue isn't about money or minutes, its the fact a major company dropped it toll free support line, a standard for even the smallest of businesses.

This is the crux of it. I honestly can't believe anyone when they're excusing Bioware of dropping such services because it's "expensive". Bioware is one of the biggest studios creating multiple triple A titles and they're coupled with one of the biggest publishing arms in the industry: EA. To say that they're cutting costs in such a pathetic manner is shameful.

Tera is even making fun of Bioware's crappy practices with their F2P announcement where they're providing perks for subscribing while giving full access to free players without cutting basic services or gameplay features.

This is the crux of it. I honestly can't believe anyone when they're excusing Bioware of dropping such services because it's "expensive". Bioware is one of the biggest studios creating multiple triple A titles and they're coupled with one of the biggest publishing arms in the industry: EA. To say that they're cutting costs in such a pathetic manner is shameful

It's either to save money or make money. What other reason could there be?

Originally Posted by Shinoashi

He doesn't need a source to know that he pretty much hit the nail on the head.

“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” - Christopher Hitchens

You, sir, make a lot of sense. Not only was the vast majority of subscriptions lost since changing the telephone service, it was also only people who were informed and furious about it.

This place should be ranamed subforum for hyperbole, gnashing theeth and great tips for running a successful business by economic lumnaries only. And no, Mr. 23 posts, you are not the main offender, a moderator and people with thousands of posts are.

Because I'm sure people are trampling over others to play this game that offers LESS support now.

You're right, this decision is only a good thing for the players and encourages so much more support for Bioware...../sarcasm

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 03:41 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Leadsop

OK man, there was no elitism there, but nice try.

The point was that it's not a big deal to the majority of people, it's a topic brought up that probably 95% of all players never have and never will encounter anyways, and people are blowing it up as some huge deal on the mighty internet.

I'm like someone posted above. The NES came out when I was 5. I got one. I have owned, and played the bajeezus out of, not only just about every major console but also my PC since that. I've never had the need to contact customer service about an issue with any game, and (I'm guessing) most or nearly all of the posters on this board have never needed to do that either.

While I'm sure they receive a constant volume of callers, the percentage to actual players of the game is undoubtedly quite miniscule. Certainly, the amount of people posting in this thread vs. the amount of people who have actually had to contact SWTOR customer service via phone is slim, possibly none.

So it dosn't affect YOU and a fair size of other people so fuck the rest of them? Sounds like elitism to me. The fact that you are then ignorant saying it's unlikly anyone (here) actually calls them kinda enforces that.

Unless bioware filed for Bankrupcy tomorrow (feel free to call me out in the unlikley chance it does) there is no reason for them to cancel this standard service. In fact because of all their crappy problems/bugs lately and since F2P gets screwed over there is a reason TO keep the number toll free.

As for the last part. For anyone who dosn't immediately leave the game because it's crappy bugs A LOT of F2P and preffered players have and do call the number. Myself and a few of my friends included since there is 0 other viable ways (emails just ask you to call them)

It was a dirty cheapskate move, and I hope anyone who defends them gets screwed over with some product (not particularily bioware) and gets screwed over again when they try to fix it and stand by defending Bioware.

I don't see it being a big deal tbh. I know it doesn't affect me at all (have always had to pay when making calls to CS) but still I can't see how it would impact that many people. That said though I do agree with the above. For a company whose CS is so dire ANY reduction in quality/standards is a terrible idea. They should be working on improving their CS rep not further rendering it a laughing stock.

Now I willingly jumped on this bandwagon due to personal experience having dingdongs with TOR's CS department and often being left baffled at their ineptitude. It's sad but any thread bemoaning TOR's CS dept and/or Community Management departments will always have a post or 6 made by me. Yes, i'm that predictable

I'm like a moth to a flame when it comes to talk about customer service or just over bad communication from a company. The few tickets I've submitted have almost always resulted in " call us", as well as the email. It got to the point that if I had an issue I just moved on and dealt with it because it was easier than trying to get help from BioWare. Heck at this point SOE looks like the gods of customer support compared to BioWare, and when you can say that, well thats just bad.

I try to limit my bashing of the game itself, because not everyone finds the same things fun, and I know not every game is for every person. However, when the largest chunk of the issue is because the company keeps doing stupid stuff I will call them out on it. I'm a fairly patient soul when it comes to MMO's, heck I played SWG for three years, but at some point you can't just shake it off.

I'll also add, I don't know why StarWars MMO's keep ending up with really stupid development teams, but I'll be damned if it doesn't seem to attract them.

Only people calling from a land line are people still living at home with their parents. I've never had a land line phone in my name, ever. Hell on some certain cell phone plans dialing a normal land line is actually free while dialing an 800 number will still use up your minutes.

I wouldn't blame Bioware for it. I'd blame EA. It's typical of EA to save money and cut corners wherever possible. Sure, all companies will try that, but not to the extreme that EA do. With the way SWToR tanked for them in terms of profit (compared to some of their more successful titles), this is just another place they can cut back. They know the game isn't doing well, so they'll slowly back off until there's nothing left.

Originally Posted by Leadsop

Except for anyone who uses a cell phone to call them.

Which is everyone. I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone playing anything on a high-speed internet connection is using anything but a cell phone to make any calls nowadays.

You guys love to bitch, don't you?

We've had a landline since forever and it still get's regular use. We're rolling with high speed internet right now. We all have cell phones. Contrary to what you may believe, cell phone coverage isn't perfect, and there's a great many areas where you'll be unable to get a good signal. Right now, at home, i get 2 bars. I could make a call on that comfortably. In about 40 minutes, i'm going to be somewhere that gets no signal.

Originally Posted by Organoth

Pretty much this.

Only people calling from a land line are people still living at home with their parents. I've never had a land line phone in my name, ever. Hell on some certain cell phone plans dialing a normal land line is actually free while dialing an 800 number will still use up your minutes.

"People still living at home with their parents". Hello! It's 2013. The recession is still ongoing, less kids are moving away from home because arrangements can be made which saves everyone a whole lot of hassle. Those that have moved out may or may not have a landline, but landlines are still incredibly common. The whole "Living at home with your parents" point has never held, and it's a pretty silly point to bring up right at this point in time.

Do you know that in the UK, there's still 12000 black and white TV licenses being issued each year? If that doesn't tell you that people still use "old technology", then nothing will. Fact is that internet is still served over the same line as phone is for the most part. It's still the same 2 wires heading into the house, and most people would rather make use of it and not have to deal with the issues that can arise with mobiles (e.g. signal). Hell, there's a lot of people who DON'T run a mobile contract and go with pay as you go, and calls from mobiles are typically more expensive than from a landline for this reason.

I'd argue it's as BioWare as you can get. They had Greg Zeschuk heading things down there, and you can't get much more "BioWare" when you have one of the doctor's manning the helm. The most recent episode of the Republic actually talked about this, and the Darth Hater guy tried to make that argument only to be shot down by the Massively guy and the host. IMO they're right, it's a proper BioWare studio, unlike a branded studio like BioWare Victory, or back when Mythic had the BioWare brand.

I'd argue it's as BioWare as you can get. They had Greg Zeschuk heading things down there, and you can't get much more "BioWare" when you have one of the doctor's manning the helm. The most recent episode of the Republic actually talked about this, and the Darth Hater guy tried to make that argument only to be shot down by the Massively guy and the host. IMO they're right, it's a proper BioWare studio, unlike a branded studio like BioWare Victory, or back when Mythic had the BioWare brand.

I am more talking now. Aren't both the doctors gone, along with many of the bioware writers and programmers? Haven't they been replaced by the Mythic team?

I am more talking now. Aren't both the doctors gone, along with many of the bioware writers and programmers? Haven't they been replaced by the Mythic team?

They're gone now (retired from the industry), and most of the lead guys are gone as well. Mythic guys were brought on from the beginning, so they've always been there.

Now? It's no different than before. The faces are new, but nothing has changed as far as how the game is run and what they are delivering compared to launch. So despite the significant staffing changes, it's still the same we got from BioWare beforehand.

Only people calling from a land line are people still living at home with their parents. I've never had a land line phone in my name, ever. Hell on some certain cell phone plans dialing a normal land line is actually free while dialing an 800 number will still use up your minutes.

Yes, because every cell phone company has a tower that covers every square inch of land on the entire planet. First, I have a land line. Why? Because Verizon gets shit for service at my house. Second, I'm a stay at home dad with a set of twins and second set of twins on the way. I live with my wife who pulls in 6 figures a year to support me being a stay at home dad. We both have Verizon smart phones. Neither of us get service where we currently live. I've seen some other ignorance on this board before, but I gotta say, you take the cake. From what I can tell, you don't know shit about shit especially when it comes to how the world actually works. I'll be awaiting your response from your grandmother's cellar.

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 02:44 PM ----------

Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0

Now? It's no different than before. The faces are new, but nothing has changed as far as how the game is run and what they are delivering compared to launch. So despite the significant staffing changes, it's still the same we got from BioWare beforehand.

I would disagree. Until we see the shit that this new crop of designers have worked on, I don't think we can say that nothing has changed. All of the shit they're releasing now was all being worked on or already done back when Erickson and the doctors were still around. Once players burn through Makeb, we'll have to wait and see how much content gets released and at what rate.

I would disagree on the other front.
We DO know of significant changes going forward.
There won't be a continuation of the personal quests as we know of them from chapters 1-3.

Which is in-line with their failure to deliver meaningful content at a reasonable rate from the start. I'm talking about the overall level of service and quality of releases. Looking at it as an outsider (who is now kinda inside...innuendo ahoy) it hasn't really changed. Things are still going "business as usual", complete with broken promises, overhyping, and shitty communication.

I'm not talking about specific content, because we don't know what the original "specific content" plans were either. The super secret space project? We still know nothing about ect. ect.

Which is everyone. I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone playing anything on a high-speed internet connection is using anything but a cell phone to make any calls nowadays.

You guys love to bitch, don't you?

You and the kid posting about landlines = home with parents really display your youth here. I play these games, just about every one listed in these forums. You know what else I have? A HOUSE. And you know what I protect that house with? ADT. So yeah, I have a landline, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with your notion that being a badass with highspeed = omgcellphones4ever. In fact, most adults I know (in our thirties and forties with kids and mortgages and you know, responsibilities beyond our food and rent and omgcellcablebills) have a landline AND the latest in cellphones AND highspeed internet. Because we make a lot of money and can afford not only to have those things, but protect them.

And we expect companies to support their product reasonably, and not dick customers over like Bioware clearly is. That isn't "bitching". That's a reasonable expectation after you shell out money for something. Nearly EVERYTHING has a toll-free number to call if there is a problem; look at your damned Cheerios box. Those cost you 4.59. Why are you so keen to let Bioware off the hook because YOU have a cellphone?

I would disagree on the other front.
We DO know of significant changes going forward.
There won't be a continuation of the personal quests as we know of them from chapters 1-3.

Likewise the whole implemenation of F2P, the P2W ship items, the Life Day fiasco....all events that unfolded after these guys left. I'm guessing they were the only resistance to the crappery and had their hands forced one too many times.

Though Edge is right that something was amiss from the get go. Like I said, I'd love to see some internal communications for all of this stuff. It has to be juicy.

I need to wait and see what's post Makeb. I've personally enjoyed every single patch (1.1-1.6). I've played every single piece of game content TOR has to offer (upto penultimate boss TFB HM and 2/4 EC NiM). Every single class story, fp, wz, daily zone, space mission etc. I play the GTN on a daily basis and own every single mount and pet (the 'collector minigame' ).

Overall the level of content is a high one imo. Be it launch content or patched content. So far it's all content the previous 'team' was heavily involved in. Upto Makeb afaik. The level of quality of whatever they have in store for us in the summer is what worries me. That will show me if the game has a bright future or not.

I'm not considering Communication, Support or Management in my analysis. Simply the playable content thus far.

SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

Originally Posted by edgecrusher

There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

Overall the level of content is a high one imo. Be it launch content or patched content.

With all due respect I follow these forums closely I don't post much in SWTOR since I don't play anymore and I'm not going to interject my bias or opinion into the mix but I recall you saying this is your first MMO and you're not keen on fantasy MMO's which is fine but you need to have a pool of other developers/games to make a call on the level of content being good and service provided by getting out there. Don't put your blinders on, check out the level of content of some other games too you'd be surprised how much better other games can actually be if you don't tunnel vision on one game.

I think the issue here is people are in love with Star Wars and hanging on that feeling and hopping. If it wasn't the SW IP I think it would be already to late. I guess at the end of the day you're enjoying the game and that's what counts the most but other then the game play that you enjoy the rest is pretty much a train wreck down to CS, QA and over all upkeep of the game from where I'm sitting.

I really wanted the game to be a hit I actually pre-ordered the day pre-orders were available but I've played enough MMO's to see the writing on the wall and enjoyed my leveling experience and quietly moved on. Just saying.