robban wrote:ok. interesting!how do you interpret the 4nt and 8fp? like illarraza do?

Seishin wrote:No.

To clarify my point further so I'm not misunderstood again, illarraza is coming from a Nichiren view point. I am not a Nichiren follower but a Tendai follow. I don't like sectarian battles so I kept my answer short and sweet and as the question was asked in the Nichiren forum I do not think it would be appropriate for me to go crtiique illarraza's Nichiren interpretation of the 8FP.

As a Tendai follower I DO view the Lotus Sutra as the penultimate Sutra

Apologies Seishin, it was Jikan and I mixed up the names. No excuse though.rory

Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu Chih-I:The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58

rory wrote:I said the Lotus Sutra is regarded as the last teaching, not the last sutra. The big important ideas in Mahayana - the Eternal Buddha, the buddhood of all beings come etc, come from this sutra. Vajrayana isn't Mahayana, it's it's own thing and actually doesn't study the Lotus Sutra....FInally this is the Nichiren forum; Nichiren adhered very strongly to the Tendai school and the Tiantai school is all about the preminence of the Lotus Sutra, so arguing about Vajrayana or about the Avatamsaka Sutra doesn't advance your point. Tiantai and Nichiren also pointed out that the NIrvana Sutra just reinforces the teaching of the Lotus Sutra specifically the Eternal Buddha and the buddhahood of all things.gasshoRory

I don't want to seem confrontational or argumentative, but I would just like to clarify a few things.

First off, my apologies for misunderstanding teaching and sutra. Sometimes they're used interchangeably, and that's how I understood your use of the terms.

Now the bulk of my response was in response to the statement

This is accepted in Mahayana just like Maitreya is the Buddha of the future.

I was just trying to show that the claim isn't necessarily universal in Mahayana.

As for Vajrayana, my mentions of the Tibetan Buddhist classification of the Three Turnings of the Wheel are actually purely Sutra based. The Three Turnings come from the Samdhinirmocana Sutra itself, which was also influential in East Asia, and the Three Turnings do not include the Vajrayana tantras precisely because the classification system is sutric.

One slight misunderstanding is that Tibetan Buddhism is exclusively Vajrayana and therefore not Mahayana. It is perfectly possible to be a Tibetan Buddhist without practising Vajrayana. All the Tibetan schools require the more serious students to study exclusively non-tantric Mahayana teachings for around 10 years. The most well known example would be the Gelug school's Geshe degree program that requires a minimum of 15 years sutra study. Thus, we can see that Tibetan Buddhism has a strong foundation in Mahayana sutras.

Furthermore, Vajrayana itself should be considered a subset of Mahayana. Without Mahayana, Vajrayana would also not exist. Thus, not all practitioners of Vajrayana neglect study of the Lotus Sutra. I've come across that article about the Geshe elsewhere, but I would not allow that anecdote to describe the entirety of a tradition. For example, the 7th Dalai Lama Kelsang Gyatso quotes from the Lotus Sutra's 25th Chapter on the Universal Gateway in his commentary on the practice of Avalokitesvara. Lama Tsongkhapa, in his Lam Rim Chen Mo (The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment) quotes from the Lotus Sutra

The Lotus Sutra says: The learned always give without jealousy [...]

and elsewhere, he says

The Lotus Sutra and the Chapter of the Truth Speaker explain that all of the Buddha's words directly or indirectly teach methods for becoming a Buddha. [...] Seek such knowledge through extensive reading of the Chapter of the Truth Speaker and the Lotus Sutra.

Thus, we can see that not all Tibetan Buddhists neglected to study the Lotus Sutra.

I am pretty much a Nichiren influenced Buddhist. I would also not interpret the 8 fold path the same way as Illarraza. I also would not translate the terms that way.

First, at least two Pali Suttas explain that the eightfold path is an expansion of the Three Trainings; Moral & Ethical Training (adhisila), Concentration Training adhicitta or samadhi), and Discernment & Insight Training (adhi-prajna). Note that Discernment & Insight Training as Correct Views or Beliefs (samyak ditthi 正見) and Right Goal or Purpose (samyak sangkalpa 正思惟) come at the beginning of the 8-fold path. However, in the expanded Ten-fold Path these become Correct Knowing and Correct Emancipation, at the end.

In one of his writings, Nichiren implies that he re-states the Three Trainings as the Three Great Hidden Dharmas 三大祕法. There are two ways to look at this:

Here is how I would tentatively work out the 8/10-fold path from a Nichiren Perspective:

1. Right View: Acceptance of Karma as Cause and Effect or Ethical Causality. Also accepting Theoretical Ichinen Sanzen2. Right Goal: Changing one's karma by elevating one's Life State

3. Right Speech: Exercise of discretion and tactfulness in words4: Right Conduct: Exercise of discretion and tactfulness in actions5: Right Livelihood: Doing one's best to serve others and fulfill one's social obligations

6. Right Effort: Gradual purification of motivation by chanting to fulfill one's heartfelt wishes (bonno soku bodai 煩惱卽菩提)7. Right Mindfulness: Mindfulness of the 4 Bodhisattvas as personifications of the 4 Virtues, gradual awakening of the 4 virtues, purification of the 5 aggregates (form, vedana, perception/conception, motivation, and consciousness) 8. Right Absorption Concentration: Focusing one's mind and body on the Object of Veneration while chanting the Sacred Title; gradual awakening of the inner light of Immaculate Consciousness.

9. Right knowing: Actual Ichinen Sanzen: Directly observing the mutual inclusion of the ten worlds (十界互具) in one's Mind; the reality of the ten expressions of thusness (十如是), and the three three container worlds (san seken 三世間) 10. Right Emancipation: Directly realizing that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana (shoju soku nehan 生死即涅槃)

rory wrote:Apologies Seishin, it was Jikan and I mixed up the names. No excuse though.rory

No worries Rory

I think an answer to your question lies in Jikan's post

Jikan wrote:

rory wrote: the Lotus Sutra is accepted by all of Mahayana as the Buddha's final teaching so yes it has prime place as the final and ultimate teaching.

(emphasis added)

I'm not sure ALL Mahayana schools would agree with this claim. Many would.

You see, he is saying he thinks not ALL Mahayana schools would agree with the elevated position of the Lotus Sutra. He's not saying he doesn't believe that but other schools of Mahayana don't believe that. Hope that helps

Well his opinion is anomalous; but hey he's entitled to it. I suggest he read J. Stone and J. Nattier.gasshoRory

Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu Chih-I:The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58

rory wrote:Well his opinion is anomalous; but hey he's entitled to it. I suggest he read J. Stone and J. Nattier.gasshoRory

Done. J. Stone and J. Nattier are good scholars, but their books do not account for the totality of Mahayana, as your blanket statement does (re: "all Mahayana"). Pointing out the existence of Mahayana outside of Japanese schools drawing their influence from TienTai doctrine hardly amounts to a mere opinion.

We can agree to disagree on the question of whether such a thing as Mahayana Buddhism exists outside of this milieu if you like.

Jikan; I have no real clue what kind of Mahayana you are talking about that doesn't accept the Lotus sutra as the last teaching of the Buddha, of course Huayan and Yogacarya etc other schools woudn't give it primancy unless that's what you mean. I'm discussing temporal teaching and as a NIchiren buddhist and follower of Tiantai we give it primacy. Feel free to post any scholars that say different, I'm happy to learn. gasshoRory

Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu Chih-I:The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58

Seishin wrote:Thank you Robby, that was a beautiful explanation of the 8 fold path.

Gassho,Seishin

Thank you Seishin. I reread the post, and am pretty much satisfied with it for now. One thing I would change -- I misspelled altar.

There are a few more points that robban might find useful. One thing, I do not care for a couple of the recent re-translations of the 8-fold path -- in particular 'right thought' and 'right memory'. I think the older translations as 'right aspiration' or 'right intention', and 'right mindfulness' or 'right remembrance', do a better job of conveying the Buddhist sense of the original terms.

I usually render the second 'fold' or branch -- right thought / intention / aspiration samyak sangkalpa 正思惟 -- as right goal or right purpose. Thought might be literally correct, but we are specifically talking about the conative aspect thought, rather than the cognitive. Specifically, sangkalpa, as used here, refers to purposeful or directed thought; our drives, ambitions, plans, dreams, and goals. That is my present understanding.

In contrast, the 1st 'fold' or branch, samyak ditthi / drishti 正見 refers to cognitive thought. View is a good translation of ditthi / drishti: as it literally means sight, and is used in a figurative sense. However, it should be clarified that it usually carries the sense of biased, limited, and partial opinions, viewpoints, or perspectives. Right View, the first branch of the path, corrects the 5 kinds of wrong or opinionated views. One's goals or purposes in life are rooted in one's views about life. If we have distorted views about life; then it follows that our purpose and goals are also distorted.

AFAIK, there are two kinds of right view taught in Buddhism, the mundane right view and the supra-mundane right view. The mundane right view is belief in karma, or volitional causality. The supra-mundane right view is the title of this thread: the Four Noble Truths. In the most basic form: existence is inherently suffering (painful, dissatisfying), there is an origin of suffering, there is a cessation of suffering, and there is a path leading to the cessation of suffering. This path is variously expressed as the 8-fold path, the 10-fold path, and the three core or higher trainings. Something like that.

At any rate, afaik, all of the Nichiren schools teach that our relative or individual suffering is due to our own karma, our volitional thoughts, words, and actions. It is possible to gradually change our karma for the better and enjoy a degree of relative satisfaction. The path to change one's karma for the better is putting the Three Great Hidden Dharmas into practice.

Moreover, we can also attain non-relative, or absolute, happiness, in this lifetime. In this sense, we suffer because our inherent Buddha Nature / Immaculate Consciousness is obscured by various afflictions or impediments, such as the four distortions, the four tainted influxes/effluents, the five obscuring veils, the three poisons, and so on. Rather than attempting to remove the various impediments, one at a time, one can Awaken the inner light of Buddha Nature directly; thus reversing the four distortions. by allowing the four inherent virtues to emerge from within. The The path to Awaken the Buddha Nature is putting the Three Great Hidden Dharmas into practice.

rory wrote:Jikan; I have no real clue what kind of Mahayana you are talking about that doesn't accept the Lotus sutra as the last teaching of the Buddha, of course Huayan and Yogacarya etc other schools woudn't give it primancy unless that's what you mean. I'm discussing temporal teaching and as a NIchiren buddhist and follower of Tiantai we give it primacy. Feel free to post any scholars that say different, I'm happy to learn. gasshoRory

Hi Rory, I hope you are doing well. The relative position of the Lotus Sutra in both temporal terms and the hierarchy of teachings is interesting. I think it is clear enough that Tiantai/Tendai traditionalyy believed it represents the last (in terms of time) and highest teaching of the Buddha. Also, it seems likely that Nichiren accepted the former as an historical fact. Even though that is interesting, it strikes me as a pointless to debate. We now know their views about history were probably incorrect.

However, Nichiren's views on the Lotus Sutra as the highest teaching strikes me as nuanced. He talks about the 28 chapter Wondrous Dharma Lutus Sutra translated into Chinese by Kumarajiva. He also talks about the 24 character Lotus Sutra taught by Jofukyo; the content of which reminds me of the Golden Rule. In addition, he also refers to the Sacred Title and the various forms of the Gohonzon as the Lotus Sutra, and so on. My take is the One Vehicle of Lotus Sutra is Awakening Itself. Put another way, the One Vehicle or Lotus Sutra refers to the Awakening of Immaculate Consciousness / Buddha Nature and the Emergence of the Four Virtues within.

I believe there are indirect allusions to the Lotus Sutra / One Vehicle in the Pali Canon. For example, the Four Virtues, personified by the 4 leaders of the Bodhisattvas that emerge from under the ground, are a positive expression of the reversal of the Four Distortions. The Four Distortions are gradually reversed by practicing the Four Bases of Mindfulness. There is also the Luminous Mind Sutta: AN 1.49-52 PTS: A i 10 (I,v,9-10; I,vi,1-2) which I take as a possible reference to Immaculate Consciousness. There is also, the famous passage in the Udana about the unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and unconditioned state; which can be discerned; making emancipation possible. Moreover, the condensation of the 8-fold path into the three higher trainings is a possible allusion to the Three Great Hidden Dharmas.

Seishin wrote:Thank you Robby, that was a beautiful explanation of the 8 fold path.

Gassho,Seishin

Thank you Seishin. I reread the post, and am pretty much satisfied with it for now. One thing I would change -- I misspelled altar.

There are a few more points that robban might find useful. One thing, I do not care for a couple of the recent re-translations of the 8-fold path -- in particular 'right thought' and 'right memory'. I think the older translations as 'right aspiration' or 'right intention', and 'right mindfulness' or 'right remembrance', do a better job of conveying the Buddhist sense of the original terms.

I usually render the second 'fold' or branch -- right thought / intention / aspiration samyak sangkalpa 正思惟 -- as right goal or right purpose. Thought might be literally correct, but we are specifically talking about the conative aspect thought, rather than the cognitive. Specifically, sangkalpa, as used here, refers to purposeful or directed thought; our drives, ambitions, plans, dreams, and goals. That is my present understanding.

In contrast, the 1st 'fold' or branch, samyak ditthi / drishti 正見 refers to cognitive thought. View is a good translation of ditthi / drishti: as it literally means sight, and is used in a figurative sense. However, it should be clarified that it usually carries the sense of biased, limited, and partial opinions, viewpoints, or perspectives. Right View, the first branch of the path, corrects the 5 kinds of wrong or opinionated views. One's goals or purposes in life are rooted in one's views about life. If we have distorted views about life; then it follows that our purpose and goals are also distorted.

AFAIK, there are two kinds of right view taught in Buddhism, the mundane right view and the supra-mundane right view. The mundane right view is belief in karma, or volitional causality. The supra-mundane right view is the title of this thread: the Four Noble Truths. In the most basic form: existence is inherently suffering (painful, dissatisfying), there is an origin of suffering, there is a cessation of suffering, and there is a path leading to the cessation of suffering. This path is variously expressed as the 8-fold path, the 10-fold path, and the three core or higher trainings. Something like that.

At any rate, afaik, all of the Nichiren schools teach that our relative or individual suffering is due to our own karma, our volitional thoughts, words, and actions. It is possible to gradually change our karma for the better and enjoy a degree of relative satisfaction. The path to change one's karma for the better is putting the Three Great Hidden Dharmas into practice.

Moreover, we can also attain non-relative, or absolute, happiness, in this lifetime. In this sense, we suffer because our inherent Buddha Nature / Immaculate Consciousness is obscured by various afflictions or impediments, such as the four distortions, the four tainted influxes/effluents, the five obscuring veils, the three poisons, and so on. Rather than attempting to remove the various impediments, one at a time, one can Awaken the inner light of Buddha Nature directly; thus reversing the four distortions. by allowing the four inherent virtues to emerge from within. The The path to Awaken the Buddha Nature is putting the Three Great Hidden Dharmas into practice.

Very interesting reading! Thank you

But do nichiren ever mention in any gosho that one should live according to the 4 nt and 8fp? Sgi doesnt care much for the truths. Of all the goshos i've read i never seen writings about the 4nt.So maybe sgi have a point?!

rory wrote:Jikan; I have no real clue what kind of Mahayana you are talking about that doesn't accept the Lotus sutra as the last teaching of the Buddha, of course Huayan and Yogacarya etc other schools woudn't give it primancy unless that's what you mean. I'm discussing temporal teaching and as a NIchiren buddhist and follower of Tiantai we give it primacy. Feel free to post any scholars that say different, I'm happy to learn. gasshoRory

hey RoryMost Mahayana generally accept the Mahaparinirvana Sutra to be the last teaching of the Buddha.as far as Primancy goes:(also there are many more passages of this nature in the sutra

Chapter Six: On the Virtue of the Name

“Then the Tathagata spoke again to Kasyapa: "O good man! You should now uphold all the words, chapters, clauses and all the virtues thereof of this sutra. Any good man or woman who hears the name of this sutra will never get born into the four realms [of hell, hungry ghost, animal, and asura]. Why not? I shall now expound to you all the virtues of this sutra and all that is practised by innumerable boundless Buddhas."

Bodhisattva Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! What is this sutra to be called? How should Bodhisattva-mahasattvas uphold this sutra?" The Buddha said to Kasyapa: "The name of this sutra is to be “Mahaparinirvana”. The foremost word betokens "good", the middle also "good", and the final "good" too. The signification [of this sutra] is extremely deep, and what is written [in it] is good. The pureness of its arrangement is perfect, its action is pure, and its adamantine treasure-house is all-satisfying. Listen well, listen well! I shall now speak. O good man! The word "maha" betokens "eternal". This is like all the great rivers draining into the great ocean. The same with this sutra. It crushes out all the bonds of illusion and all the qualities of Mara, and then body and life drain into "Mahaparinirvana". Hence we say "Mahaparinirvana." O good man! This is like a doctor who has a secret treatment embracing all medical treatments for disease. O good man! It is the same with the Tathagata. All the various wonderful doctrines taught and all the secret depths of meaning find their way into this Mahaparinirvana. That is why we say Mahaparinirvana. O good man! It is like a farmer who sows seed in spring. He entertains a rare wish. When he has finished the harvesting, all his longing is at an end. O good man! The same is the case with all beings. If we study other sutras, we always long for beautiful tastes. When one once hears this Mahaparinirvana, [however], one long ceases to covet the beautiful tastes mentioned in other sutras. This great Nirvana well enables all beings to cross the sea of all existences. O good man! Of all footprints, that of the elephant is the best. The same with this sutra. Of all the samadhis of the sutras, that of this sutra is the best. O good man! Of all the tillings of the field, that done in autumn is best. The same with this sutra. It is the best of all sutras. It is like sarpirmanda, which is the best of all medicines. It thoroughly cures the feverish worries and madding minds of beings. This Great Nirvana is the foremost of all. O good man! It is like sweet butter which contains the eight tastes. The same also applies to this sutra. It contains the eight tastes. What are the eight? These are: 1) it is eternal, 2) it always is, 3) it is peaceful, 4) it is pure and cool, 5) it does not grow old, 6) it does not die, 7) it is taintless, and 8) it is pleasing and happy. These are the eight tastes. It possesses these eight tastes. This is why we say "Mahaparinirvana". Now, all Bodhisattva-mahasattvas peacefully abide in this and manifest Nirvana in all places. That is why we say "Mahaparinirvna". O Kasyapa! All good men and women who desire to enter Nirvana by this Mahaparinirvana must study well the fact that the Tathagata is eternal and that the Dharma and Sangha are eternal."

Bodhisattva Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "All is wonderful, O World-Honoured One! We cannot conceive of the Tathagata's depths of virtue. The same is the case with the virtues of Dharma and Sangha. This Mahaparinirvana is also inconceivable. One who studies this sutra will gain the right eye of Dharma and become a good doctor. Anybody who has not studied this sutra, we should know, is [like] a blind person, not possessing the eye of Wisdom and overshadowed by ignorance."

In a revolutionary declaration, chapter 3 of the Lotus Sutra explains that the ultimate teaching of Buddhism is: “the Law of the Lotus”, which is “unsurpassed, wonderful and superior” to the teaching of the Four Noble Truths:

“In the past at Varanasiyou turned the wheel of the Law of the Four Noble Truths,making distinctions, preaching that all thingsare born and become extinct,

Now you turn the wheel of the most wonderful,the unsurpassed great Law.

This Law is very profound and abstruse;Since times past often we have heardthe World-Honored One's preaching,but we have never heard this kind of profound, wonderful and superior Law.Since the World-Honored One preaches this Law,we all welcome it with joy”.

The above passage indicates a profound shift in Shakyamuni’s teachings from the focus on “sufferings” of the Four Noble Truths. It repeatedly brings the element of “Joy” and “wonderful feeling” in the teaching of the “Law of the Lotus”, for which “the mind is filled with joy”:

"World-Honored One, now I have heard from the Buddha what I had never heard before, a Law never known in the past, and it has ended all my doubts and regrets. My body and mind are at ease and I have gained a wonderful feeling of peace and security. When I heard the sound of this Law,I gained what I had never had before.My mind was filled with great joy.

In a revolutionary declaration, chapter 3 of the Lotus Sutra explains that the ultimate teaching of Buddhism is: “the Law of the Lotus”, which is “unsurpassed, wonderful and superior” to the teaching of the Four Noble Truths:

“In the past at Varanasiyou turned the wheel of the Law of the Four Noble Truths,making distinctions, preaching that all thingsare born and become extinct,

Now you turn the wheel of the most wonderful,the unsurpassed great Law.

This Law is very profound and abstruse;Since times past often we have heardthe World-Honored One's preaching,but we have never heard this kind of profound, wonderful and superior Law.Since the World-Honored One preaches this Law,we all welcome it with joy”.

The above passage indicates a profound shift in Shakyamuni’s teachings from the focus on “sufferings” of the Four Noble Truths. It repeatedly brings the element of “Joy” and “wonderful feeling” in the teaching of the “Law of the Lotus”, for which “the mind is filled with joy”:

"World-Honored One, now I have heard from the Buddha what I had never heard before, a Law never known in the past, and it has ended all my doubts and regrets. My body and mind are at ease and I have gained a wonderful feeling of peace and security. When I heard the sound of this Law,I gained what I had never had before.My mind was filled with great joy.

illarraza wrote:Right Memory: Remembering that one's life is eternal and that we are the original disciples of the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra

Sorry to intrude in this part of the forum, but I cannot help but think that the above quote would violate the Three Seals of Dharma/Marks of Existence. On a more general note, Mahayana sutras have a tendency to proclaim their own doctrine as the true ultimate (rather than the provisional), such as the Samdhinirmocana Sutra and the Shurangama Sutra amongst others. Such claims to ultimate truth are not exclusive to the Lotus Sutra.

'All compounded things are impermanent." That which is not compounded, is unborn, non-arisen, unconditioned, and un-create is eternal, the Law. the Buddha, and Nirvana for example.

The Lotus Sutra transcends AND incorporates both existence and non-existence. It is not as the Threefold World [or collection of provisional heretical Buddhists] sees the Threefold world:

"The Tathagata knows and sees the appearance of the Three Worlds in accordance with reality: there is no Birth-and-Death, whether backsliding or emerging, likewise there is neither existence in the world nor extinction; they are not real; they are not void, they are not thus; they are not different. It is not as the Three Worlds see the Three Worlds. in such a matter as this the Tathagata sees clearly."

illarraza wrote:Right Memory: Remembering that one's life is eternal and that we are the original disciples of the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra

Sorry to intrude in this part of the forum, but I cannot help but think that the above quote would violate the Three Seals of Dharma/Marks of Existence. On a more general note, Mahayana sutras have a tendency to proclaim their own doctrine as the true ultimate (rather than the provisional), such as the Samdhinirmocana Sutra and the Shurangama Sutra amongst others. Such claims to ultimate truth are not exclusive to the Lotus Sutra.

No other Sutra makes claim to ultimate truth as forcefully and repeatedly as the Lotus Sutra, not even the Diamond sutra. Nichiren teaches, "A lantern is useless when the sun rises."

jmlee369 wrote:Part of the Lotus Sutra's supremacy centers around classifications of the teachings such as the Five Periods of the Teachings (五時敎判). Other traditions, such as the Tibetan schools, tend to classify the teachings from the perspective of the Three Turnings of the Wheel. The first turning would be the teachings on the Four Noble Truths and suffering. The second turning is the teachings on shunyata, based on the Prajnaparamita Sutra. The third turning would be the teachings on Tathagatagarbha, based on sutras such as the Lankavatara and Samdhinirmocana. Other third turning sutras are the Shurangama, Srimaladevi Simhananda, Mahaparinirvana and the Lotus. Different Tibetan schools hold different turnings to be definitive. My school takes the second turning as definitive, the third turning being a provisional teaching for those who were afraid of the (incorrectly assumed) nihilism of the second turning. Others hold the second as definitive, while still others take both second and third as definitive.

The problem with all these classification systems is that they are historically inaccurate. The Pali canon teachings span the entire teaching career of the Buddha, up to his passing.

Since Tientai's classification system is the finest and most accurate, those latter scholars who dispute his work based on supposed "historical inaccuracy" are mistaken.

In a similar vein, we now know that the Theravadans assertion that "the Pali canon [Hinayana] teachings span the entire teaching career of the Buddha, up to his passing", is baseless. The Hinayana teachings are actually late recessions [compared to the early Mahayana scriptures such as the Lotus Sutra].

robban wrote:Where in the lotus sutra does it say that one should follow the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path?

Only a hand full of sutras in Sanskrit and Pali say we should follow the 4noble truths & the eightfold path. Others make reference to them but aren't explicit. A great many others don't mention them at all. However I truly believe that all existing sutras are in accord with 4NT & 8FP.

I always view the 4 & 8 as the foundation of the building. Sometimes you can't see the foundations but that doesn't mean they are not there holding the building up. With out them the building would fall down.

Gassho,Seishin.

Buddha wisdom is the foundation. The 4nt and 8fp are the scaffolding, not the foundation. Once the edifice is complete, the scaffolding is discarded. Nichiren teaches, referring to the Nembutsu but which can be extrapolated to include the 4nt and 8fp,

"The teachings of Nembutsu, such as the Meditation Sutra, were expounded provisionally in preparation for the Lotus Sutra. They are like the scaffolding used when building a pagoda. Some think that, because the Nembutsu teachings and the Lotus Sutra are both a part of Buddhism, they differ only in that one was expounded earlier and one later; but these people are laboring under a profound misconception. They are like someone foolish enough to prize the scaffolding even after the pagoda has been completed, or like someone who says that the stars are brighter than the sun...”

illarraza

Last edited by illarraza on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.