pre-nup or not, to me makes no difference if i am very sure that he is God's choice for me.

if i happen to be wealthier, i will not request a pre nup, i don't think it necessary- i don't have any dependants. if i had dependants who will not be happy with my choice i'll give them their share of my inheritance before getting married.

if the man is wealthier and wants a pre nup, i'll gladly sign because i cannot force my faith on him. people've issues that make them feel vulnerable...we should be understanding

eg. i don't have an ex and cannot imagine marrying someone who has an ex. i simply cannot..... what if he never really bonds with me because of his past? that's my fear!! maybe ridiculous, maybe not... we all have issues

**---Rhonda,You speak after the fact for you have been blessed with a husband of whom you scream and boast. **

a foolish and very hateful women would make an arrogant CLAIM i boast about my husband and being blessed ...since aids testing is not part of Gods Word one must rely on one's own experience ...per the very question you posted Nana

unless that is the point NANA ...you have nothing to contribute other than bashing others responses and their lives in Christ

">>it's been 18 years...but who's counting?<Only a brief moment in time in the grand scheme of things. That is why I can wait too. I was thinking today that if the love is intense enough, I would not need a pre-nup. I suppose that might be worth waiting for. My cousin married for the 1st time at 60. He is now approaching 80 and is still happy. My mom married as a widow at age 78. I have been single my whole life and an quite used to it though.

Holly: Since I have no prospects I for sure don't plan on getting married anytime soon. At church, 48 out of 50 women in the singles group are divorced and 2 are widows. There is a dominant undercurrent of bitterness and men bashing, but I persevere. Most of those women would welcome a pre-nup I am sure since they have assets and had multiple marriages in some cases. One women had an ex that tried to murder her to get her inheritance even. She is about the only one I might consider. She is attracted to me, but not vice versa.

---Rhonda,You speak after the fact for you have been blessed with a husband of whom you scream and boast. Holly on the other hand is hoping for such a man. She has been waiting for 16 years I believe. What would you tell women who have gotten a bad deal in a husband, "Ye of LITTLE FAITH!"? Hearing you talk I sense that you have entered into life fully. Only one thing thou lack to be perfect, Matt 19:21. Of course, all in all I am assuming you never see a doctor or take antibiotics or medicine, being you do not TRUST in medical tests. Ye say, "remember a marriage is between a man, women, and God". No thanks for the reminder, I don't believe in polygamy.

Obewan...I think it would be wise for you to keep away from marriage right now and work on some inner healing. You do come off as very distrustful, bitter and angry towards women as well as not having much trust in God. You have allowed people you have seen act in an ungodly manner to taint your ability to trust in the Lord to bring you the proper mate in whom you can trust, while at the same time, trusting in Jesus when He says "if you ask me for bread, would I give you a stone"?

**Would it offend your "Christian sensibility" if you were proposed marriage contingent on you passing an AIDS screening? **

I'm married, and if I weren't I would STILL trust in God to bring to me a man who is HONEST, TRUSTWORTHY, has INTEGRITY etc ...my "sensiblity" is TRUSTING in GOD NOT my bank account or my lawyer or tests ...if one has to stoop to that low of a level they profess christianity they have NO FAITH

A prenup cements the end before it begins ...No trust prior to marriage?? ...there will still be no trust when you marry ...remember a marriage is between a man, women, and God

my life isn't focued on greed of a few ...you see it because thats your focus

BEFORE I married my husband i worked hard for EVERYTHING i owned from my cars to my homes - no inheritance or ex spouse ...I married a man who is exceptionally wealthy ...not knowing this prior to our marriage ...we married the old fashioned Christian way ...respect TRUST mutual devotion to God and love ...God blesses us with material because HE comes first

I can't blame you wanting an agreement based on a prenup then scripture wise.....

I ain't got time for what someone else has I was always too busy working and and making sure I had my own assets, that I gladly shared with my spouse because I loved him and he loved me.It's about LOVE!

">>Where is your...(LOVE AGGAPE)<I reserve my agape love for donations to the homeless shelter and the work at the soup kitchen. Wisdom says that I do not allow my agape love to take in homeless drug addicts into my own home, and give them my credit cards, atm cards, and bank accounts to do with as they see fit. People who cater to others who abuse their rights have a mental illness called co-dependency. Proverbs is full of warnings about the kind of women who should be avoided. I avoid the divorce by not getting married to them. Maybe I dont need a pre-nup if I hold out for that special godly widow, but to settle the estates it might be necessary. I would not be offended by an Aids test, besides, law requires it.

And no...I would not mind taking a HIV test. I've not been an angel in my past, pre-Jesus life. And besides...if you are infected, you can KILL the other person. Not quite the same as getting divorced and loosing some money. Besides...even if my future spouse did test positive...I would do what GOD instructs me to do and if God says to marry him, I would. Remember, it's God's will, not mine or even yours. He does the choosing of whom I will marry. That's why I say pray, pray and then pray some more and seek God to see what HIS WILL is BEFORE you commit to marry someone.

Well Obewan...I guess then you have no worries if you would not "pursue" a woman of means with that kind of lifestyle... But then again...who knows what kind of woman the Lord would bring you...are you praying and trusting in HIM and HIM alone to bring you His perfect choice for a mate? Do you trust HIM to pick out the correct person for you?

>>Why would you want to sell someone else's house ..when you know that it was not the person's desire.<I would not pursue them in the first place. Why should someone with no family live alone in a 4000 sq ft house and drive 30 miles from the far suburbs ALONE to work in a large SUV and spend $400 a month on the electric bill in a world where millions of people are currently facing starvation due to food/energy shortages? It goes against my God given conscience. When I look at how they spend/waste money I can see how they might have gotten divorced. This thread is all about women getting ONLY what THEY want. A fantasy of a PERFECT romance with ZERO chance of divorce. + By your logic, it would become OUR house, not THEIR house.

"...selfish to marry someone when ones first love is their prenup (money) not their future spouse"---Rhonda on 6/25/08Would it offend your "Christian sensibility" if you were proposed marriage contingent on you passing an AIDS screening? How about you, Jolly?

I live simply, they like large inefficient houses and big SUVs. I respect that they want to specify the inheritance rights for their children before the marriage. But what if I wanted to sell their 4000 sq ft house to live in my new 1200 sq ft condo? When I say pre-nup, those are the decisions I am talking about. ---obewan on 6/25/08

Obewan...a true Christian puts other person's needs before their own. Why would you want to sell someone else's 4000 sq ft house to live in a new condo for yourself when you know that it was not the person's desire for you to do so. Would you go against the expressed verbal (or even written) desires of your loved one if they were to pass on? That would not be Godly.

So what's wrong with wanting to protect yourself? Marriage is a huge gamble. The divorce rate for "Christians" is equal to the divorce rate in general. You can hire a lawyer now for a small amount of money, or hire one later for a huge amount of money.

Protect yourselves gentlemen, and don't be apologetic for doing so. You can be sure that if she ever takes you to divorce court she will certainly not be apologetic when her lawyer presents the case against you along with the list of demands for compensation.

**woman who wants NO pre-nup is just as concerned about money as the man who does**

For true Christians Marriage is about a contract between man, a women, and God until death ...a prenup is a nonchristian contract between the mammon one serves (money) and themselves until they determine when they want out of the contract with their spouse and God

...selfish to marry someone when ones first love is their prenup (money) not their future spouse

Prenup is not about building a life together it's about securing ones only interest in life ...if you read some of Holly's posts you would see Christians seek God when making decisions about whom to have a spouse in their life ...nonchristians seek lawyers

Where is your faith and (LOVE AGGAPE) Who cares about money if you have God in your life you make choices based on that love for Christ marry someone Young without the trials and tribulations you fear!

A guy in our church was asked to sign a prenup and he had no problem with it. He said he wasn't marrying her for her stuff so that part didn't make any difference to him. As far as a will goes, they are contested and distributed contrary to the contents very frequently. If you are married for a long time the prenup isn't worth the paper it's written on either because the spouse will have enough input into the assets to warrant a percentage. Love bears all things, even prenups.

">>>it means they do not trust me and they want protection<Holly: The point I keep making is it can be protection for the woman well. At my age, I know a couple of millionaire widows. Should we decide to tie the knot, I would feel comfortable doing so with them establishing the financial foundation before marriage. Maybe it could be done with a will, but it would still require discussion and agreement. I live simply, they like large inefficient houses and big SUVs. I respect that they want to specify the inheritance rights for their children before the marriage. But what if I wanted to sell their 4000 sq ft house to live in my new 1200 sq ft condo? When I say pre-nup, those are the decisions I am talking about.

Obewan...I agree with Rhonda. If someone asked me to sign a pre-nup, it means they do not trust me and they want protection for themselves, in case of divorce. It indicates to me that they are expecting a divorce and that they want to make sure thay get what's theirs. As far as anything that happened in the old testament, back then women were not even allowed into the temple in the same room with men. We are not living in those times. As for me...I have been single for 18 years, totally supporting myself, so I am not depending on any man to take care of me, so it's not about me getting his money. It's about me feeling like he trusts me, knows my character and knows I fear God more than man and will do the right thing in God's eyes.

You seem to have missed my point about the keytubah or bride price instituted by rabbis and mentioned in the Bible. It was a mandatory pre-nup, men could not marry without it. It may no longer be necessary since the woman still has some protection, but I maintain that the woman who wants NO pre-nup is just as concerned about money as the man who does. If the relationship is solid, it should make no difference, but, the woman who blatantly refuses my leadership in requesting one is contentious and would not make a good wife. As for wills and pre-nups, they accomplish the same thing for older singles. They both delineate how much will be available if/when the marriage ends, and they both require agreement before the marriage begins.

Any bitterness I have is from transference due to over 20 years involvement in singles ministry with other divorced people. The bitterness is contagious, and I agree I need to give the fears up to the Lord. ---obewan on 6/24/08

I can understand that...and amen to giving up those fears! I pray that the Lord brings you a wonderful, caring and trustworthy woman who loves the Lord with ALL her heart and loves you dearly too!

>>Obewan..isn't that why people have wills<<Holly: Yes that is what wills are for. In my mother's case, the pre-nup was about agreeing to the wills. It was complicated since there were two government pensions and a trust fund. Both parties had to plan their retirement until death with contingencies for time and expense in a nursing home or for live in care if the other spouse died etcThey made the deal before they got married so they knew what they were going to be in for with no surprises. The bi-polar woman did not burn me. Any bitterness I have is from transference due to over 20 years involvement in singles ministry with other divorced people. The bitterness is contagious, and I agree I need to give the fears up to the Lord.

Having a potential spouse sign a prenuptial agreement is a very wise thing to do. Marriage today has two components. One is a covenant ordained by God. The other is a contract established by the State.

When you marry somebody you are entering into a State recognized legally binding contract with your spouse. The problem arises when one party wants out of the contract and there were no established conditions in writing. The State then gets to decide the conditions of the contract. Wouldn't you rather make those decisions?

Unromantic? Oh well.Lack of trust? More like lack of foresight.Give your partner the benefit of the doubt? Big mistake. BIG

Obewan..isn't that why people have wills...to decide where they want their money to go when they die?

Also...are you the "friend" who got burned by the bi-polar wife? It sounds like you are that person, since the hurt and anger still comes through on your posts. Sounds like you've been badly burned in the past and do not want to be burned again. Perhaps some forgiveness is in order? And then some work in trusting in God and being willing to wait on Him to bring you the correct person to marry. Only God knows people's hearts, He is the expert.

">>money = mammon it is what one serves when the (sic) seek a prenup it is NOT Christian..<Rhonda: That is a sanctimonious comment. Are YOU God that you may judge who is Christian based upon an agreement they FREELY choose? It is not mammon for me to be concerned about stewardship of God's money. Some of the women I might marry have more money than myself, and I have quite a bit. They want their estate to go to their children, and since they have enough money, I could have my estate go to Christian ministry. That is what my own family did and you are judgmental for saying that $1 million dollars going to Moody Bible Institute is mammon. For some people, a pre-nup is a Godly agreement. Especially older singles.

Rhonda: Now you say to NOT be HOLLOW I need to go against good counsel and marry and stay married to a mental patient who wont take her court ordered meds? When I say I avoid burdens like that I mean the promiscuous woman, the drug addict, the fiscally irresponsible woman, the woman who has been divorced multiple times and the unsubmissive rebellious woman. I avoid the divorce by not getting married in the first place. A comparison to the cancer patient is an unfair comparison. This woman was fine for years until she HERSELF stopped her meds. Her husband struggled for 3yrs of their 4yr. marriage trying to get her back on meds. She did nothing to support the marriage and got over $125K per year just for being there.

Obewan...did your friend seek the Lord BEFORE he married this woman who turned out to be bi-polar? Did he seek Godly counsel, go for pre-marital counseling? Did he have friends pray about them marrying, prior to their marriage, friends who have a proven tract record of hearing the Lord accurately (having keen discernment)? These are very important steps to take BEFORE entering into a marriage, even if you do meet someone in church or even if it is outside the church, yet the person claims to be a christian. God knows all...if He is sought first and the person(s) seeking His will re: marriage truly want God's will ABOVE ALL ELSE, EVEN THEIR FLESHLY DESIRES, then He reveal things that are hidden and warn of possible dangers.

Really? Hmmm now if this same women had terminal cancer racked up thousands of dollars in medical bills ...insurance didn't pay ...despite diagnoses she continues to live well beyond her "expiration date" ...now husband tired of caring for her wiped out financially ...because she was perpetually "ill" ...hmmm I know someone like that too

...seems like there are many caveats to marriage ...maybe shallow wasn't the correct word ...HOLLOW would be more appropriate

">>and she is "stealing" from him at divorce? How much more upside down can society be?<Rhonda: You are taking my comment out of context. A friend at church married a woman who is bi-polar. She refused to take the medication the doctor prescribed after a forced hospitalization. She became impossible to live with, dangerous, trashed the house, lay around all day doing nothing, and ran up thousands in credit card debts. He was forced to abandon the marriage. She got over $500K + $50,000 a year in "alimony" to "support herself in the lifestyle she was accustomed to." (No children BTW) I don't consider myself a "shallow" Christian for avoiding burdends like that THANK YOU.

">>marriages built on prenups are worthless!<Your broad-brush generalization brings insults to thousands of senior citizens who remarry after the death of a spouse. In my own family, my stepfather who remarried my mother at age 80, left 1 million dollars to the Moody Bible Institute when he died at 87. My mother got virtually nothing from his estate because she already had one of her own. There you have it. I am in favor of pre-nups and don't care about the money. Why should I expect an inheritance from him? Yes, their marriage was built on a pre-nup. There was no other way to work the wills.

>>Show me where in the Bible anyone put together and signed a pre-nup before marriage?<<

In the Old Testament and Jewish law it was called the Bride Price or ketubah.

In the Jewish tradition, the rabbis in ancient times insisted on the marriage couple entering into a marriage contact, called a ketubah. Besides other things, the ketubah provided for an amount to be paid by the husband in the event of a divorce or his estate in the event of his death. This amount was a replacement of the biblical dower or bride price, which was payable at the time of the marriage by the groom. If it was too small or all spent, the woman was in dire straits. It is found in Exodus 22 and Deut 22.

She insisted on a prenup to protect her children's inheritance. He wanted the whole hog to go to charity and the children to get nothing. ---obewan on 6/20/08

Obewan...I can see your grandmother's point in this case, since the man showed absolutely no respect for your grandmother's wishes. He was not acting an a very Godly manner or even as a gentleman. If he truly loved her, he would respect her wishes. Did she ever marry him? He did not sound like much of a bargain!

I have to say that in the case of an inheritance, it is a different matter. This discussion keeps getting off track. My mother remarried at age 75 as a widow. The man she married was worth 1 million dollars, and she was worth 1/2 that. She insisted on a prenup to protect her children's inheritance. He wanted the whole hog to go to charity and the children to get nothing. He refused the prenup until she refused to marry without it. He kept his own money btw.

Amen Catherine! Asking someone to sign a pre-nup also shows a lack of faith and trust in God to take care of you if anything DID happen. God says...vengeance is mine, I shall repay. Do you trust God to make things right if things go wrong? Do you trust HIM to take care of you? That is the BIG question.

">>Show me where in the Bible anyone put together and signed a pre-nup before marriage?<Holly, in Bible times pre-nups were not required because women were mistreated by the legal system. Divorced women in the Jewish culture were forced to beg at the city gates if they could not find employment. Divorce was shunned, and the society favored men. You correctly use the word steal for those women who get 1/2 a mans net worth without working for it.

Show me where in the Bible anyone put together and signed a pre-nup before marriage? I do not believe that a pre-nup is a Godly thing. It is part of the world's way of doing things, based on mistrust, greed and self-preservation. None of these are Godly traits. Didn't Jesus say if someone steals your cloak and you have 2, give the other one too? Didn't He also say that if someone slaps you on the cheek, give them the other cheek too?

No one enters marriage thinking divorce is an option. Our legal system MAKES divorce an option, and 50% DO end in divorce. Even if I dont WANT a divorce, my spouse may FORCE it on me. A prenup is simply good stewardship of all that God has entrusted me with. If my future wife feels that it is unfair or will degrade the relationship, then she should exercise the option to STAY in the marriage. If she leaves, she should fairly get nothing more than she came to me with + anything she has EARNED. I am not so sanctimonious to believe that I am immune from divorce. We only think we know people when we marry them. Then we get to know the real person. I suppose the optimist would say 50% of Christian marriages are successful though.

Here is my suggestion to the "loaded" christian who has been dating a "poorer" christian and is about to marry him/her. Shower him/her with dinners, gifts, outings, outfits, well all that money can buy, then inform the poorer that you are just about to sign all your wealth, including all the spare shoes, house, everything to charity and that the both of you henceforth homeless will build all those things back up from just the substenance of your mutual love. Skip pre-nup.

If someone I married had money which is for her family, one day, I'd be OK about signing so her family would know it's theirs. If she's divorced, my main concern would be checking if she still has ways that helped produce her divorce, and so would likely do the same with me. I'd say, be mainly concerned about making sure you have gotten rid of any of your own ways that caused you to get your divorce, before you marry anyone else (o:

Holly4jc > IF you could get that far with a guy who would do that > wouldn't that be a reflection on *your* ability to evaluate a guy? I'd be more concerned about what that meant about myself.

if one wants a prenup why do they become involved with those who do not have the same amount of money ...becoming unequally yoked in money?

a Christian who is asked to sign a prenup must consider many things ...you are signing an agreement making you unequally yoked in your marriage ...you are yoking yourself with someone who serves mammon not God ...money will always be more important to the person who requests this than the marriage and divorce is always an option to them and this secures it ...they fear losing the money more than the faith in God sending them a partner for life

Obewan...I am divorced. I got saved AFTER my divorce and have chosen to wait on the Lord for my mate. I've been totally celibate for 12 years, not dated, held hands or kissed a man all that time. I am waiting for the man that the Lord puts me with and I will only marry that man that God has chosen. I will attest though that most of the single women I know in church think I am nuts, they want to do things the world's way. Perhaps that's why they usually end up divorced. They are not waiting on the Lord. So...I still take the stand that I will not sign a pre-nup, because my Father in heaven is hooking me up! On another note, when I got divorced, I did not take my ex to the cleaners, as a matter of fact, he was supposed to pay me 4 yrs of alimony, but then I inherited some money and I did not take the alimony from him. See, there are still some nice women with integrity around! :-)

Maybe the circles you fellowship in are different. In my church, 98% of the available single women are ALREADY divorced. Many of them more than one time too. Maybe they have changed spritually, and maybe not. I would rather stay single than marry a divorced woman, but if I ever do, it will be a pre-nup or nothing.

Amen Elder! I would not sign a pre-nup. That tells me that my partner does not trust me, that he is not truly committed to making the marriage work and that he feels divorce is a way out. I would be highly insulted if anyone asked me to sign one...I would then be very concerned about his profession of love for me, his level of trust in me or his commitment to the marriage. It would ruin our relationship.

If you start off not trusting your partner with his or hers' large inheritance - don't even bother getting married. It's easier for a large inheritance to go through the eye of the needle than take it with you when you go.Worrying about your money or who's going to get their hands on it will shorten your life and marriage.

For sure I would. Divorce is rampant even in the church. Some women in our church singles group have a poor track record and have been divorced 3 times even. If I marry a divorced woman at age 49, why should I be forced in a divorce to give up 1/2 of my entire substantial life savings that she did not work for and has no right to?

It doesn't work. Every minute of every day, the one who signed the prenup will percolate like a coffee pot. One day, someone will pull the cord out of the wall and you will be crying over spilled coffee.It doesn't sit in a safe, it's a reminder in the back of your mind, constantly there, that someone has already made plans for dissolving the marriage. One day, it happens.

I think a prenup is necessary on this side of heaven. "Be as gentle as doves but wise as serpents," and the parable of the shewed manager. I've seen too many friends burned by an ex. These people honestly went into marriage with the attitude, "It's for life." But they should've known that they can't read men's hearts. If both husband and wife never file for divorce, the prenup simply stays in the safe. Nuff said.

i have thought about this and i like the idea of a prenup that would hold both accountable to the relationship. i think if one in the marriage cuts out or decides they just want to divorce they should be penalized. they dont deserve half. i think this would make a couple think twice about doing the wrong thing in the hard times. like it or not both men and women do stupid things every day and we should be accountable to our spouse.

A prenuptial agreement may imply "I bet this marriage is going to fail".But insurance is the same way:In health insurance, you bet that you're going to get sick, and the insurance company bets that you won't.In car insurance, you bet that you're going to get in an accident, and the insurance company bets that you won't.Someone of Perfect Faith shouldn't need such things. But we all do.

1) StrongAxe: I do believe that God has provided doctors, medicine, insurances, etc. for us to utilize, so yes, I take advantage of those things. But I will not sign a prenuptual...a marriage covenant is totally different than choosing health or auto insurance or utilizing those. I do not believe that a prenuptual is one of those things that God has provided for us to use. It is a man-made document that is all about greed and making sure you keep what you think is yours and keeping it away from the...

2) ...other person...it's an "it's all about me" type of document, not a Godly concept. It's saying you do not trust the other person you are marrying and that you will probably end up in divorce. It's providing an "out"...just in case. Not a Godly thing.

Having blind faith and trust in God is good and proper. Putting that same faith and trust in another person is not always smart. A covenant relationship only works if both parties keep the covenant. People marry with all sorts of motives disguised as undying love and commitment. I would be wary of a person who refused to sign a pre-nup. A woman who has no problem signing one demonstrates that her desire for marriage is not necessarily motivated by self interests.

If you are in a convenant relationship with Jesus, and he promises to take care of you in all things, and heal all your diseases, etc. - do you still have health insurance, and keep aspirin in the house? Do you have a family doctor? If so, that means that you don't trust Jesus 100% to do these things.

StrongAxe: Marriage is a "covenant" agreement...being in a covenant with someone is totally different that having auto insurance. You cannot compare the two. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we are in covenant with Him. God takes covenants seriously. You do not go out and seek another Savior if you are no longer happy with His services, like you would auto insurance. Just like you should not go out and shop for another husband/wife if you no longer like them.

But answer this:Do you have health insurance?Do you have car insurance?Do you have life insurance?Do you keep things like aspirin in your medicine cabinet?If you answer "yes" to any of these, it indicates that you don't trust God to deal with it 100%.

I would not sign it as it shows lack of confidence regarding the covenant committment of the marriage. I do not care how much money is envolved, if it came down to an ultimatum, I would not marry that man.

1) No prenuptial agreement ever! If you are praying and trusting God to bring you a mate and He does and He tells you both that you are to marry, then signing a pre-nup not only says that you do not trust each other, but you also do not trust God to bring you a proper mate. You are saying to God that perhaps He made a mistake and all this will fall apart. Signing a pre-nup is like prophesying divorce over your marriage. It is an agreement you are both making that most...