Sorry, Sam, I just saw 're-rendering' and your av together and thought it was funny at the time. Didn't mean to attack you personally.

But back to your point, feel free to use the origional aramaic if you can actually read it and then feel free to discuss said bible with only those who also can read aramaic so as to preserve the true meaning of your arguments. Or you can read english and discuss in english and use the holy spirit (assuming you are chirstian, I really dont know) to safeguard any major mistranslations from ruining your arguments.

Also for your second point, isn't it possible that god made the world the way it is becuase it is the only way it would have worked, and that man misinterpretted the signs (as falliable mankind is prone to do) to mean something completely different? There are many things such as scientific constants, position of the earth with respect to the sun, atmospheric composition and others, that make earth perfect for life; couldn't the geology of the earth be just another of those things god tweaked to make earth a perfect world for his creations to live on?_________________Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. -- Frederick Douglass

Also for your second point, isn't it possible that god made the world the way it is becuase it is the only way it would have worked,

I don't care what you're arguing about, but this short statement is brilliant._________________"You cannot run away from a weakness; you must sometimes fight it out or perish. And if that be so, why not now, and where you stand?"

Now, I don't know so much about the idea that the earth is indeed around 6000 years old and that rapscalliony trickster God likes to plant ample evidence that it is not, so that He might condemn those who actually trust the empirical sensibility He gave them.

slow down, thats not what i meant at all. I'm disagreeing w/ the 6000 year old earth--anyone who looks at it objectively has to agree that evolution currently makes far more sense than god creating the earth and every single bit of evidence to the contrary is fraudulent.

BUT...

as MF put brilliantly,

MellowFish wrote:

here are many things such as scientific constants, position of the earth with respect to the sun, atmospheric composition and others, that make earth perfect for life; couldn't the geology of the earth be just another of those things god tweaked to make earth a perfect world for his creations to live on?

It makes far more sense that god didn't create the world 6000 years ago, but (insert whatever year is the current belief to be the universe's age) years ago, and "helped" our planet along in its evolution to be life supporting. I'm just saying that God might like to allow people to choose whether to believe in him, and if there was no possible way that the world could have formed without a god, then it kinda ruins the free will thing, now doesn't it? So, I believe that evolution makes perfect sense, and is scientifically sound, but needed a little help along the way to actually create sentient beings that can even argue about this. Also, science should be merged with doctrine to make a symbolic truth, as well as having spiritual relevance. Anti-Christian of me? Not really, I still believe in all of the important Christian beliefs, Jesus Christ, redemption of sins, holy spirit, ect. And as such, I can see no reason why not believing that the bible is perfect is against my religion. Everyone has to think critically about their beliefs in order to ensure true faith, and not just blindly following whatever you were taught._________________--Christianity with a touch of logic

It makes far more sense that god didn't create the world 6000 years ago, but (insert whatever year is the current belief to be the universe's age) years ago, and "helped" our planet along in its evolution to be life supporting.

If we're having a discussion, you can't assume that I'm wrong--and in the same way, I'll try not to assume that I'm right. but you don't have to come up w/ stupid things like that to hurt my argument. especially when that part is irrelevant to anything that i had said._________________--Christianity with a touch of logic

If we're having a discussion, you can't assume that I'm wrong--and in the same way, I'll try not to assume that I'm right. but you don't have to come up w/ stupid things like that to hurt my argument. especially when that part is irrelevant to anything that i had said.

a) you and I are not having a discussion. I made a comment and that's all. now untie your panties.

b) I certainly can assume you are wrong, and I will. get over it. be that as it may, you are still allowed to call that my opinion, which it is, or you could do the only thing you know how to do which is argue untenable points and pick fights just for the sake of mouthing off.

c) my comment wasn't stupid. it may appear vague to you, but that's not the point. maybe you should have asked why I said what I said. I really don't think that the phrase, "statistics, not god," is all that inflammatory, unless you are completely insecure.

d) what I said is extremely relevent, but then again you failed to ask how._________________...

here are many things such as scientific constants, position of the earth with respect to the sun, atmospheric composition and others, that make earth perfect for life; couldn't the geology of the earth be just another of those things god tweaked to make earth a perfect world for his creations to live on?

It makes far more sense that god didn't create the world 6000 years ago, but (insert whatever year is the current belief to be the universe's age) years ago, and "helped" our planet along in its evolution to be life supporting.

The earth is perfectly situated for our form of life. It looks like at least some other solar systems have planets poorly suited for life as we know it. So by your model, god created a universe of 100 billion galaxies, with 100 billion stars in each, and then decided to pick one solar system and place a planet in the right orbit to make humans?

Doesn't it also make sense that in that 100 billion^2 solar systems, by chance one might have an earth-like orbit without needing any help? And then if life evolved on that planet, the life forms would grow up thinking that they were special and needed higher powers to create them, rather than just being a rare occurence in an extraordinarily huge pool of astronomic variation?

Also for your second point, isn't it possible that god made the world the way it is becuase it is the only way it would have worked, and that man misinterpretted the signs (as falliable mankind is prone to do) to mean something completely different? There are many things such as scientific constants, position of the earth with respect to the sun, atmospheric composition and others, that make earth perfect for life; couldn't the geology of the earth be just another of those things god tweaked to make earth a perfect world for his creations to live on?

We adapt to the world around us, not the other way around._________________

this is kinda where the difference between faith and science starts. if the odds are infinitely small, you say there was enough of a chance that life could happen, because it did, and i say life happened because god helped it.

<edit> i dont think that there is an argument against that._________________--Christianity with a touch of logic