Hi! We are in the final stages of the SRK forum migration. Soon, we will lock the forums so we can transfer over all the discussion threads. Please expect a downtime of a few days while we implement the migration. Thx for your patience.

Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

Comments

There's still some weirdness: sometimes, both characters are relatively close to each other, and all hits connect. Sometimes, they just don't. This often makes Ryu vs Ken/Ryu random, since full super vs 1 hit + either reversal shoryu or 4 blocked hits is a huge difference.

My guess is a mixture of two components, perhaps only one:

Since the super does not move pixel by pixel, there might be precise distances where the super hits the extended arms with just a single pixel overlapping the hurtboxes. This gives slightly more room for the shoto to recover from the attack and either block or reversal jab shoryu;

Some weird scrolling effect such that if the screen does or does not scroll, then the full super will connect on a mid-screen shoto target with extended arms.

As for Sagat, I feel the super being blocked is pretty fair, and very unfair against O.Sagat. The latter can really just spam low tigers and not really give a shit about the super, unless he couldn't get a big life lead by the time Ryu gets bar. Even the full super doesn't do that much damage, since he has more damage reduction.

Hmm, I didn't think about it not moving pixel-by-pixel. That makes sense, especially in conjunction with screen scroll, which would adjust the way it connects on hurt boxes.

I don't think any super that connects should be able to be blocked. That's just poor game design. It's like the one advantage N.Ryu has over O.Sagat, and it's basically useless as long as O.Sagat keeps track of his on-screen positioning and where the stage corner is.

Also I thought the regular akuma can already send the opponent flying with his regular fireball (like ken's command round house). What's special about shin akuma's red fireball?

eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/

The damage. Both of those screenshots show the opponent after fully eating one fierce red fireball at full health, top one is regular Akuma, bottom one is Shin. Notice how the bottom one took over twice as much damage.

Easiest solution that would please almost everyone -> a decent port. That is, the DC version of ST running on a PS4/XBOX.
Difficult part -> get capcom involved. Whoever achieves that gets the golden egg and solves the problem for once and for all. Period

One of the lesser-known details of SF2's system is that there's a sort of auto-handicap function that kicks in when a player is behind in rounds. It factors into all the damage they do (and maybe how much damage they take, can't recall offhand). I had noticed before messing around in MAME that the adjustment to this handicap value wasn't always the same, and figured it might be determined by how badly the player lost the round that put them behind, or something along those lines. Turns out it's just entirely random, like so many other things in SF2. If you're behind in rounds, it gets randomly boosted by anywhere from 0 to 8.

One of the lesser-known details of SF2's system is that there's a sort of auto-handicap function that kicks in when a player is behind in rounds. It factors into all the damage they do (and maybe how much damage they take, can't recall offhand). I had noticed before messing around in MAME that the adjustment to this handicap value wasn't always the same, and figured it might be determined by how badly the player lost the round that put them behind, or something along those lines. Turns out it's just entirely random, like so many other things in SF2. If you're behind in rounds, it gets randomly boosted by anywhere from 0 to 8.

That's random??? I always thought it was fixed. While getting the damage listings for the several attacks, I bothered to get the difference for all throws (other attacks vary, too, but it would be too much of a mess to gather all that data) and never bothered to test several times and maybe try to win a round by a small margin.

Every single attack damage value has its own table of numbers to choose from according to the handicap level, so it could very well be that throws' tables are all set up to where any handicap value over the default results in the same damage. I haven't really investigated it thoroughly yet.

Here's the complete list of differences between Normal Akuma and Shin Akuma (as far as I've been able to figure out, at any rate):

- Close s.HK has smaller head hurtbox on first active part. (Regular Akuma's head hurtbox is clearly glitched here, it's way back behind him. I'm guessing it was probably supposed to be the same as Ryu's.)
- Far s.HP has a fatter/taller hitbox.
- c.HP has smaller head hurtbox on first active part.
- All jumping punches, as well as neutral j.LK and j.MK have no leg hurtboxes for the entire duration of the moves, including recovery time spent falling.
- Neutral j.HK, and diagonal j.MK and j.HK only have a leg hurtbox during the active phase. It's missing during startup and recovery.
- Hadoukens have shorter startup (7 frames VS 10), 2 frames of startup invincibility, and hurtboxes don't move forward during startup (they stay the same as the idle pose)
- Shakunetsu Hadoukens have 4 frames of startup invincibility, hurtboxes don't move forward during startup, and the medium and hard versions do much more damage (over double that of normal Akuma's).
- Air Hadouken hurtbox is extended for a shorter time, it's only extended on the animation frames where his arms are actually extended. He throws two projectiles at once rather than just one, and the medium and hard versions do more damage.
- Medium and hard Tatsumakis have more spins (4 and 5 respectively, same as N. Ryu). They also do more damage than normal Akuma's, albeit only the spin part (startup knee does the same).
- Air Tatsumakis do less damage. Go figure.
- Medium and hard Shoryukens do more damage.
- Ashura Senku is invincible for the entire duration, no vulnerability on recovery.

Haven't seen ARG for a long while.
Shogatsu is crazy good. Is he from tokyo area or chubu?

I've seen him on GSV but he has been playing in the last few starcup events in chubu.

eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/

I want to wish Super Turbo a belated happy 20th birthday. I'm a guy in my upper 30s and remember the times ST came out in arcades all across NYC in every big arcade in 1994 during my high school years. Cheers

What a year 1994 was. Console gaming, Crts, 90s movies, 90s music, heck Vhs tapes.
I play this at work every now and then with all the memorable 2D games that many fans experienced to enjoy including with gray hair on my sides now.

so i forgot to post this but it seems like jp thinks oguile is really weak

at evo 2k12 mao was surprised i picked him and asked if he was my main

at akiba hey people did a weird look when i picked o guile when I looked around real quick

why

He is pretty weak, but still fun to play. N.Guile has most of what he can do, plus more. Sure, being able to backhand or st.short while charging is nice, but doesn't factor in that well in his matchups. It's not worth losing hop kicks, a crossup, and a super you can combo into.

I just think it's a matter of what you're used to. I like playing that traditional CE/HF style of Guile, so I like using O.Guile from time to time. N.Guile's a very different animal. He has a lot more mobility and some different AA options in his matchups, which takes some getting used to.

What's the official verdict about the connection to boxer Mike Bison and Mike from SF1?
After doing a search about it, it's vague.

By then, Capcom Japan would say they're the same and Capcom USA would say they weren't. As of now, WTF cares, since fighting game storyline is shit and should be disregarded. SF storyline would simply "suck" by the time of SF2. After the Alpha series, it became "retarded" status.

Experimenting with different crossup setups, and ive noticed how easy some of the cast is to cross up, especially Sim. is every character a bit different or are there groups of characters that have the same size hitbox and would therefore have the same result of a crossup setup? Id like to find a way to minimize my testing.

Experimenting with different crossup setups, and ive noticed how easy some of the cast is to cross up, especially Sim. is every character a bit different or are there groups of characters that have the same size hitbox and would therefore have the same result of a crossup setup? Id like to find a way to minimize my testing.

Every character is different. I suppose shotos are considered the "standard" hit box, where Chun is freakishly super skinny and has a "thin" hit box, and guys like Sim, Fei, Hawk, Gief, Honda, are all "fatties"

Boxer is just bizarre, because he does a lean-back animation when he blocks, so he's unusually hard to hit crossup because of it, but it is possible. It just takes really specific timing, which is why the majority opt for other options i.e. safe jumps, air spin kicks, etc...

had a chance to play yesterday against some good GGPO players in a small tourney.
Never before have I felt so overwhelmed in a fighter.

I am not a tourney player, just play casual matches of 10+ games, winning a game (not a match) from time to time against better players.

While games like SF4, KOF98, Vampire Savior, Garou and 3S show in their own way the difference between good and casual players, in this game that gap felt the widest ever.

it was not about the amount of games lost and the speed of the loss, but the fact they could predict your moves, before you even had them on your mind.
this game requires a totally different mind set than all the other fighters. I felt that countless years of the opponents experience were crushing me in a way not felt before.
Even if I had devoted time in training, in the end it wasnt about the skills or training, but about the mindset.

I'll stick to casual matches, I am not for that stuff. Not in any video game.

had a chance to play yesterday against some good GGPO players in a small tourney.
Never before have I felt so overwhelmed in a fighter.

I am not a tourney player, just play casual matches of 10+ games, winning a game (not a match) from time to time against better players.

While games like SF4, KOF98, Vampire Savior, Garou and 3S show in their own way the difference between good and casual players, in this game that gap felt the widest ever.

it was not about the amount of games lost and the speed of the loss, but the fact they could predict your moves, before you even had them on your mind.
this game requires a totally different mind set than all the other fighters. I felt that countless years of the opponents experience were crushing me in a way not felt before.
Even if I had devoted time in training, in the end it wasnt about the skills or training, but about the mindset.

I'll stick to casual matches, I am not for that stuff. Not in any video game.

I know you mentioned other games, but honestly at a high level casual players will hit the same wall no matter what they are playing. Sure, some of those games have comeback mechanics but by and large you will lose to experience 99% of the time if the gap is big enough. Pretty much everyone on GGPO is there because they are serious. It isn't like a ranked match on a console (high probability of running into another casual). ST is not what I would call a forgiving game, but honestly I think it is more suited towards beginners than the rest of the games you mentioned. ST in particular seems like the genesis of modern day fighting games. Skills you learn in ST carries into other games quite nicely.

But yeah, if you run into someone who knows what they're doing on ST, you aren't going to win unless you put your time in and get good.

I know you mentioned other games, but honestly at a high level casual players will hit the same wall no matter what they are playing. Sure, some of those games have comeback mechanics but by and large you will lose to experience 99% of the time if the gap is big enough. Pretty much everyone on GGPO is there because they are serious. It isn't like a ranked match on a console (high probability of running into another casual). ST is not what I would call a forgiving game, but honestly I think it is more suited towards beginners than the rest of the games you mentioned. ST in particular seems like the genesis of modern day fighting games. Skills you learn in ST carries into other games quite nicely.

But yeah, if you run into someone who knows what they're doing on ST, you aren't going to win unless you put your time in and get good.

other games, even SF4 and 3S, give you more gimmicks, like parries, reversals, guard cancels, multiple supers, cancel moves, air control etc

but in SF2T you're on your own. till super bar is full, it is already too late.
game is easier for beginners, but regarding strategy involved, it is perhaps the hardest.

i honestly don't think ST is as beginner-friendly as modern day games. just getting to a level where you can even somewhat compete with average players is extremely difficult compared to a lot of other games. sure, there's not a million bars and system mechanics that you have to learn like in SF4, blazblue, etc, but the game is just so brutal because of the ridiculous tools that some characters have, and the average skill of the player base. sure, there's some abusable stuff in any game, but if you show a regular player claw wall dive shenanigans that even give high-level players trouble, they're probably gonna get scared off from the game. plus, some of these guys have been playing the game for 20 years, so they probably know the ins and outs of the game pretty well, and trying to do anything against those guys is an uphill battle.

<dominos> what 2d isn't real?
<AlterGenesis-X> my world is over
<Stabby> "come back when you lose a few dimensions"

other games, even SF4 and 3S, give you more gimmicks, like parries, reversals, guard cancels, multiple supers, cancel moves, air control etc

but in SF2T you're on your own. till super bar is full, it is already too late.
game is easier for beginners, but regarding strategy involved, it is perhaps the hardest.

That's probably why you're struggling if you think "you're on your own until you get super". Your super in ST is just another tool, and relying on just your super is a good way to get wacked. Some characters have virtually useless (or close to) supers and do just fine. I honestly think the "strategy" part of SF2 in general is fairly simple. It's essentially controlling space and execution after you have your matchups down. No air block or other new age shit. If you jump in willy nilly you are going to get SRK'ed.

i honestly don't think ST is as beginner-friendly as modern day games. just getting to a level where you can even somewhat compete with average players is extremely difficult compared to a lot of other games. sure, there's not a million bars and system mechanics that you have to learn like in SF4, blazblue, etc, but the game is just so brutal because of the ridiculous tools that some characters have, and the average skill of the player base. sure, there's some abusable stuff in any game, but if you show a regular player claw wall dive shenanigans that even give high-level players trouble, they're probably gonna get scared off from the game. plus, some of these guys have been playing the game for 20 years, so they probably know the ins and outs of the game pretty well, and trying to do anything against those guys is an uphill battle.

You're right, there is not much unknown about ST and SF2 in general. But you can say the same thing for 3s and other older fighting games. I don't have the youtube on me, but I remember Justin Wong beating the crap out of the top 3s GGPO player with Sean... I mean, common. The skill gap is craaaazy in 3s. If you show a player how to walldive shenanigan in ST and they don't know their matchups, that player is a dead man walking against competition that knows what they're doing. Sure they might have some success sometime, but it takes a lot more than finding an "abusable" tactic to succeed in SF2. The people in the "top" level of ST are not going to lose to beginners or even most average players. That's just the way it is. You shouldn't decide to play or not play a game by looking at the best and deciding the game isn't worth playing because you can't give them a game at this particular moment.

other games, even SF4 and 3S, give you more gimmicks, like parries, reversals, guard cancels, multiple supers, cancel moves, air control etc

but in SF2T you're on your own. till super bar is full, it is already too late.
game is easier for beginners, but regarding strategy involved, it is perhaps the hardest.

It just seems like your overall approach to ST just needs refinement. All of the moves you listed aren't really there for beginning level players. They're added layers of game mechanics for the more intermediate player, and definitely not something beginners will learn or utilize.

ST is difficult because most people don't want to play such a basic game. Usually less is more in ST, and it places a much stronger emphasis on spacing and defense, as opposed to other games, where you can basically play as if you have no idea how to block and still do fairly well. The actual mechanics are amazingly simple, the strategy of which the majority of ST players are more than happy to share and discuss, and the low amount of matchups makes it much more approachable in terms of being able to learn the game without devoting 8 hours of your life to it every day.

the difficulty of ST for beginners is that, in contrast to SF4, it adds tighter controls. A shoryuken move there is more difficult to perform than other SF games. In the original SF2 it is even harder, same for grappling moves.I think SFA2 has also a difficult shoryuken move.

Playing the game on an arcade stick gives me the impression that this is one of the most difficult fighters to control.
While I like grapplers like Tizoc, Hugo or even Condor, I really hate choosing ST Zangief due to control difficulty.

while it seems basic, the control are actually difficult. the newer fighters move more smoothly and with more frames of animation.
blocking is possible, but the tough controls really nullify your attack options.

mastering the controls of that game would give you an advantage in other fighters, but not the opposite.
regarding attacking, this game gives me the greatest tension and difficulty.

the difficulty of ST for beginners is that, in contrast to SF4, it adds tighter controls. A shoryuken move there is more difficult to perform than other SF games. In the original SF2 it is even harder, same for grappling moves.I think SFA2 has also a difficult shoryuken move.

Playing the game on an arcade stick gives me the impression that this is one of the most difficult fighters to control.
While I like grapplers like Tizoc, Hugo or even Condor, I really hate choosing ST Zangief due to control difficulty.

while it seems basic, the control are actually difficult. the newer fighters move more smoothly and with more frames of animation.
blocking is possible, but the tough controls really nullify your attack options.

mastering the controls of that game would give you an advantage in other fighters, but not the opposite.
regarding attacking, this game gives me the greatest tension and difficulty.

True, the inputs for special moves and supers are much more difficult, but they were designed that way. Special moves were originally power moves, that were often kept a secret, and were supposed to be difficult to perform due to how good they were. It was made easier over time though. A2 does not have a difficult uppercut motion at all. It's just difficult to do on reversal due to being unable to neg edge it.

Gief requires a lot of patience and practice to control properly, but this seems somewhat intentional, as the SPD is an extremely powerful move (doing 24-30% damage), has fantastic range, and fast startup. But I can tell you from experience that if you ask the right questions, and put in a bit of practice, you can learn to SPD reliably in your setups. It's difficult to do it while standing, but far easier to do it if you buffer it off of a jump attack or cr.jabs. I am admittedly terrible at 360 motions, but even I can nail them with relatively mild practice.

It requires a complete shift in mentality to play this game. You can't approach as you would other fighters, including Alpha, 3s, cvs2, or sf4, because movement options takes a backseat to proper spacing and strategy. Movement is limited, so you really have to think about how to use movement safely and properly, alongside other strong fundamental skill.

Not to mention the SF2 community is pretty helpful when it comes to answering questions and offering tips and advice. We're pretty open about that kind of stuff.

To be fair to Petran his first 2 matches were against Balcork(Hell balcork wasn't even playing his main and still stomped almost everbody) and Spinalblood(Who would easily and by a wide margin be the single best player in europe if he played the proper version of his character) which if it was anyone's first introduction to the game would be intimidating as fuck because they are both scary good .

I know that a lot of people think that instantly being put up against really good players is good for new people but while there is a lot to learn from it can be very discouraging being just bashed into the ground.
There comes a point where the difference is too great for you to learn anything and you simply turn into a punching bag.

I personally think you should keep going and if you want to keep going with cammy there is a french player that goes by Max and a bunch of numbers if i remember correctly that plays a really good one you could try to spectate and ask some questions. Not everyone is those two and if you keep going and try playing against a lot of different players you will surely improve.

Use that tournament as a measuring stick as they are fairly frequent usually atleast once a week and see how far you can get in the next one and so on.

edit found his name: Max31

Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.

To be fair to Petran his first 2 matches were against Balcork(Hell balcork wasn't even playing his main and still stomped almost everbody) and Spinalblood(Who would easily and by a wide margin be the single best player in europe if he played the proper version of his character) which if it was anyone's first introduction to the game would be intimidating as fuck because they are both scary good .

I know that a lot of people think that instantly being put up against really good players is good for new people but while there is a lot to learn from it can be very discouraging being just bashed into the ground.
There comes a point where the difference is too great for you to learn anything and you simply turn into a punching bag.

I personally think you should keep going and if you want to keep going with cammy there is a french player that goes by Max and a bunch of numbers if i remember correctly that plays a really good one you could try to spectate and ask some questions. Not everyone is those two and if you keep going and try playing against a lot of different players you will surely improve.

Use that tournament as a measuring stick as they are fairly frequent usually atleast once a week and see how far you can get in the next one and so on.

edit found his name: Max31

This just highlights the importance of seeding your tournament. You should always seed. Top players reap benefits by gaining BYE priority over others, beginners and intermediates benefit by having a less stacked first round, and everyone benefits by having more exciting matches occur in the 3rd round and above.

And I agree that people should learn by playing against other similarly skilled players first. This is why I always recommend finding a rival within your scene to help level each other up. As you both play each other and improve, you improve as a unit, which in turn helps others. This is why I'm a big proponent of never withholding advice or information, since it only hurts the scene as a whole, along with the individual player.

To be fair to Petran his first 2 matches were against Balcork(Hell balcork wasn't even playing his main and still stomped almost everbody) and Spinalblood(Who would easily and by a wide margin be the single best player in europe if he played the proper version of his character) which if it was anyone's first introduction to the game would be intimidating as fuck because they are both scary good .

I know that a lot of people think that instantly being put up against really good players is good for new people but while there is a lot to learn from it can be very discouraging being just bashed into the ground.
There comes a point where the difference is too great for you to learn anything and you simply turn into a punching bag.

I personally think you should keep going and if you want to keep going with cammy there is a french player that goes by Max and a bunch of numbers if i remember correctly that plays a really good one you could try to spectate and ask some questions. Not everyone is those two and if you keep going and try playing against a lot of different players you will surely improve.

Use that tournament as a measuring stick as they are fairly frequent usually atleast once a week and see how far you can get in the next one and so on.

edit found his name: Max31

yes, exactly that experience was intimidating.
were I a complete beginner and had lost to him, I wouldnt mind, since I wouldnt understand what was happening anyway.
But at this stage I can grasp some things and this was really an experience I had never seen before.

ironically the day before, Balcork was playing against a player named Afro Legends Jr. Dont know if it was the same player as AfroLegends, but he was beaten 40 games straight (his Vega vs Honda).
Afro then switched to Cammy and dominated even more for a while.

it felt like playing football with a professional team. even at lower ranked leagues, you'll loose 25-1
since now I injured my shoulder due to tendonitis, I'll return at fighters probably after summer holidays anyway.....