Class lll dealer

I live in S.California and am looking for a class lll dealer. Does such a dealer exist? If so, I have been unable to locate one.

My husband has a fully registered "AOW", specifcally a 20ga Ithaca Auto-Burglar gun that we would like to sell/transfer. It is my understanding that this can only be done through a class lll dealer. It was a long process when he obtained it and I assume it us probably even longer now. Any advice welcome.

I dug the paperwork out of the safe. It was purchased in 1971 and was Federally registered, not CA DOJ.

Pilgrim

February 23, 2005, 12:56 PM

Did he purchase it while in California in 1971?

Pilgrim

pattycakes

February 23, 2005, 01:02 PM

Yes. It was purchased in California, from someone who lived in California.

According to the list from Bubbles, there is no such dealer listed in California...

Pilgrim

February 23, 2005, 01:17 PM

This is what California says about short-barreled shotguns.

Please excuse me for asking all these questions, but as far as I know California does not permit private ownership of NFA weapons, including AOWs except in very special circumstances. It would be very embarrassing should you or your husband walk into a Class III dealer's premises with a short-barreled shotgun when you aren't supposed to have one. Your comment that is is federally registered, not CA DOJ registered, has me wondering.

I worked in a CA gun shop for a couple of years. Long after CA banned "assault" weapons, we had people coming into the shop to have unregistered weapons repaired, or to transfer them to another party. We had to tell them to quickly get out of the shop and hide that evil black rifle and hope they aren't seen by a peace officer while they are hiding it in the trunk of their automobile.

Pilgrim

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any (snip) short-barreled shotgun,

b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(1) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of short-barreled
shotguns or short-barreled rifles by police departments, sheriffs'
offices, marshals' offices, the California Highway Patrol, the
Department of Justice, or the military or naval forces of this state
or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official
duties or the possession of short-barreled shotguns and
short-barreled rifles by peace officer members of a police
department, sheriff's office, marshal's office, the California
Highway Patrol, or the Department of Justice when on duty and the use
is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of
their duties and the peace officer has completed a training course in
the use of these weapons certified by the Commission on Peace
Officer Standards and Training.
(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of
short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by
the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with
Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law.

12095. (a) If it finds that it does not endanger the public safety,
the Department of Justice may issue permits initially valid for a
period of one year, and renewable annually thereafter, for the
manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale of short-barreled
shotguns or short-barreled rifles upon a showing that good cause
exists for the issuance thereof to the applicant for the permit. No
permit shall be issued to a person who is under 18 years of age.
(b) Good cause, for the purposes of this section, shall be limited
to only the following:
(1) The permit is sought for the manufacture, possession, or use
with blank cartridges, of a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled
shotgun, solely as props for a motion picture, television, or video
production or entertainment event.
(2) The permit is sought for the manufacture of, exposing for
sale, keeping for sale, sale of, importation or lending of
short-barreled rifles or short-barreled shotguns to the entities
listed in paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12020 by
persons who are licensed as dealers or manufacturers under the
provisions of Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26
of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued
pursuant thereto.

12096. Applications for permits shall be filed in writing, signed
by the applicant if an individual, or by a member or officer
qualified to sign if the applicant is a firm or corporation, and
shall state the name, business in which engaged, business address,
and a full description of the use to which the short-barreled
shotguns or short-barreled rifles are to be put.
Applications and permits shall be uniform throughout the state on
forms prescribed by the Department of Justice.
Each applicant for a permit shall pay at the time of filing his or
her application a fee determined by the Department of Justice not to
exceed the application processing costs of the Department of
Justice. A permit granted pursuant to this article may be renewed
one year from the date of issuance, and annually thereafter, upon the
filing of a renewal application and the payment of a permit renewal
fee not to exceed the application processing costs of the Department
of Justice. After the department establishes fees sufficient to
reimburse the department for processing costs, fees charged shall
increase at a rate not to exceed the legislatively approved annual
cost-of-living adjustments for the department's budget.

12097. (a) Every person, firm, or corporation to whom a permit is
issued shall keep it on his or her person or at the place where the
short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles are kept. The
permit shall be open to inspection by any peace officer or any other
person designated by the authority issuing the permit.
(b) Every short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle possessed
pursuant to the provisions of this article shall bear a unique
identifying number. If a weapon does not bear a unique identifying
number, the Department of Justice shall assign a number which shall
be placed or stamped on that weapon.

12098. Permits issued in accordance with this article may be
revoked by the issuing authority at any time when it appears that the
need for the short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles has
ceased or that the holder of the permit has used the short-barreled
shotguns or short-barreled rifles for purposes other than those
allowed by the permit or that the holder of the permit has not
exercised great care in retaining custody of any weapons possessed
under the permit.

12099. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), the Department of
Justice shall, for every person, firm, or corporation to whom a
permit is issued pursuant to this article, annually conduct an
inspection for security and safe storage purposes, and to reconcile
the inventory of short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
(b) A person, firm, or corporation with an inventory of fewer than
five devices that require any Department of Justice permit shall be
subject to an inspection for security and safe storage purposes, and
to reconcile inventory, once every five years, or more frequently if
determined by the department.

pattycakes

February 23, 2005, 01:29 PM

Well, do I have a gun that will end up in the "grinder"? Several years ago (how time flys) he had it at a gun show in LA; it was confisicated by, to the best of his memory, the city of LA cops or agency of. It took over a year for him to get it back, but it was finally returned with the help of an attorney through the gun show/NRA. At the time they gave him a copy of the paper work you have above. It has not been out of the house since...

Seems I am stuck with it or to the grinder of the local police!

musher

February 23, 2005, 01:58 PM

Seems like you ought to be able to transfer the shotgun to an NFA dealer in another state.

Not sure if you'll get hung on the state law thing, but the fact that LA did give it back implies that you've got some legal basis to own it.

Pilgrim

February 23, 2005, 02:44 PM

Seems I am stuck with it or to the grinder of the local police!

I don't know if that is the case. I just suggest you be careful who you talk to until you find out if a Class III dealer in CA can take it off of your hands.

Pilgrim

Valkman

February 23, 2005, 02:59 PM

Pattycakes, this is a tough one since CA doesn't allow NFA weapons and there are no Class 3 dealers. Here in Vegas we have lots of Class 3 dealers and I suggest you give one of them a call.

The Gun Vault 702-837-8383

Hopefully they can help you, as I'm thinking since that gun can't be legally disposed in CA maybe you can bring it to NV and sell it.

manhattan23

February 23, 2005, 06:57 PM

Even if the gun ends up being illegal in CA don't throw it away/destroy it.

All you have to do is remove it from the purview of California law. Although I am not familiar with CA law, you may be able to remove the firearm from CA jurisdiction just by dissasembling it. In most states only working firearms fit under the state definitions. So if you take the gun apart, it is just a receiver and parts. Still a firearm under Federal law but that is not your concern.

Also, I do not know if you need an ATF form to move an AOW across state lines. You could drive it out of the state and put it in a safety deposit box. If you were permanently moving out of the state, I dont think you need to file with the ATF.

Since this was regustered 25 years ago, that might be an indication that you just want to get rid of it. It is worth some money, but not nearly as much if it was a machine gun.

Good luck.

-m

gezzer

February 23, 2005, 09:01 PM

It's an AOW not a sawed of or short barreled shotgun. Ithica auto burlars never had a stock therefore it is an ANY OTHER WEAPON. You should go over to http://subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi
They gladly will help you there.
AOW's move between states without filing a 5320.20 form with the ATF

Mr. Mysterious

February 23, 2005, 09:59 PM

I didn't know what that firearm was, so here is a link for everyone...Some drivel, but some ok stuff in there...

http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle1997/le970315-03.html

http://www.ncc-1776.com/gifs/autoburg.gif

444

February 23, 2005, 10:58 PM

I live in Las Vegas Nevada and would be interested in buying that, if the price is right and we can do a legal transfer. I can give you the name of several NFA dealers I have done business with in the past that could do the transfer if this is possible legally.

pattycakes

February 24, 2005, 10:26 AM

I had to go to work yesterday, so just seeing some of your replys. It is just like the photo, it does have an engraving of a hunting dog. I have seen another stock style, but this is the correct one.

I know before he bought it, he and the owner had to apply for the transfer through ATF. ATF was then under the IRS. The form was: APPLICATION FOR TAX PAID TRANSFER AND REGISTRATION OF A FIREARM. I have several blank copies of this form, not that they are any good now! My husband had to provide, passport photo, fingerprints and certification by the local police. The seller had to provide some other documents. The approval letter was sent from: Director of ATF Division of IRS Washington, DC, has a cancelled $5.00 "National Firearm Act" stamp. Letter signed by:Rex D. Davis, Acting director of ATF divison. Only after all this was done, could the gun be in the possesion of the buyer.

I will try to contact some dealer in Nevada or Arizona for some advice. Or, if anyone comes up with any other ideas...