--- Log opened Tue Dec 06 00:00:13 2005
00:01 < drm> the exercise of my world build of unstable is painful... i keep filling my disk and/or having programs which halt the automated compiling
00:01 < dmacks> I'm gradually looking at msachs' ppc world build. We have some crazy legacy crap here!
00:01 < msachs> drm: What are you doing in yours that makes it different from mine?
00:02 < drm> msachs: well, i'm using my antiquated scripts instead of your better ones, for one thing
00:02 < dmacks> Should we nuke *-pm585?
00:02 < drm> dmacks: yup
00:02 < drm> the "yup" was to "crazy things"
00:02 < msachs> Let me rephrase that. Do you just want more recent data, or is there some other reason you're doing a new build instead of using the 2005-11-07 data?
00:03 < drm> the pm585 question we should take up with RangerRick
00:03 < dmacks> msachs: do your scripts use released fink or CVS HEAD?
00:03 < drm> (he objected when i wanted to nuke it before)
00:03 -!- KraMer [n=mark@adsl-70-240-210-101.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
00:04 < drm> msachs: well, i started doing my build before you posted your results... maybe i should just look at them instead :)
00:04 < msachs> dmacks: They use whatever fink I have installed on the system. For my latest build, that's 0.24.10.
00:04 < msachs> :p
00:04 < dmacks> msachs: :) okay.
00:06 < msachs> drm, dmacks: Any further thoughts on the us lending you folks a machine thingy?
00:06 < lisppaste> dmacks pasted "RR on pm585" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/14359
00:07 < drm> dmacks: cool... nuke 'em
00:08 < drm> msachs: we have a couple of possible sources of a machine... the problem may be with finding anybody with enough time to set it up and have us use it effectively
00:09 < msachs> Mmm. Yeah.
00:14 < drm> msachs: can you remind me of the URL for your build data?
00:14 < msachs> http://fink.opendarwin.org/build/2005-11-07/ppc/out/report.html
00:17 < drm> let's see... one recent source of problems, msachs, is that some old packages don't like the new gettext-tools (xgettext or msgformat errors)... is that covered by any of your categories, or will it be in 'unanalyzed'
00:17 < dmacks> http://fink.opendarwin.org/build/pkgindex-fail.html is the list of bogons.
00:18 < msachs> drm: Do you remember any of the packages that have that issue?
00:18 < dmacks> (...updated as they move towards resolution)
00:19 < dmacks> I wonder if it would be useful to have the worldbuild scripts force -Wall into CPPFLAGS and CXXFLAGS?
00:20 < drm> yeah, auctex was one... i see that it made it into 'nofiles'... which is true, xgettext couldn't create some expected file
00:20 < msachs> Will anyone look at the warnings? Plenty of packages have hard errors for ages...
00:22 < dmacks> feh...true:(
00:23 < drm> dmacks: the hard part is getting from the current mess to a situation where everything builds, anything new is subjected to automated building immediately, and msachs uses his scripts to see if the next improved XCode breaks things
00:23 < drm> there is a way to do that, of course... throw away all broken packages!
00:23 < msachs> Mm, yes, that would be lovely.
00:24 < dmacks> Why stop with the broken ones? Scrap it all, and we can just sit around with drinks with little umbrellas all day:)
00:24 < msachs> Can I add "build settings (compiler, CFLAGS, etc.) are controlled in a consistent fashion" to that list? Not all packages respect things the standard environment variables.
00:25 < dmacks> msachs: Only if you want to fix all the wacked-out build systems:(
00:25 < drm> msachs: well, i don't see how that can be achieved, frankly... there is too much upstream variation on how that stuff works
00:25 < msachs> Mm. I guess it's not as critical as "get everything building", there are plenty of ways to force flags into things when necessary...
00:25 < drm> unless we only want to accept autoconf-using stuff for packing into fink :/
00:26 < msachs> Makes it a bit harder to do experiments with things like -Wall or, say, trying out -Os vs. -O2.
00:26 < dmacks> Why the hell doesn't transfig building abort when compiling crashes?
00:26 < drm> msachs: yeah, RangerRick is constantly sticking -j1 into pkgs the screw up with, well, whichever mutliple build system he uses
00:26 < drm> what's wrong with transfig now?
00:27 < dmacks> http://fink.opendarwin.org/build/2005-11-07/ppc/logs/transfig.log
00:27 < dmacks> genibmgl.c errorss out but make continues. Twice.
00:28 < msachs> Oh, nice.
00:28 < drm> well, it's imake after all
00:28 < dmacks> good point.
00:29 < drm> i don't know what imake's usual behavior is, since so few things use it anymore
00:30 < dmacks> We should add a .info validator failure "too difficult to diagnose, too unlikely to do the right or even predictable thing" if it senses imake/xmkmf
00:30 < drm> i've been tempted to write a 'real' buildsystem for the guy, but i suspect that either he would get mad and not use it, or else get mad and tell me to maintain the damn project myself
00:30 < msachs> Do I hear the voice of experience, drm? ;)
00:30 < dmacks> Tell him "use libtool" and then foist it upon pogma.
00:31 < dmacks> drm: Any thoughts about nuking -py21 from unstable?
00:31 < dmacks> (10.4T)
00:31 < dmacks> It's already abolished from stable I think, and it doesn't compile with gcc4
00:32 < drm> msachs: no, not really... this ia an old project for him but he's the only one who understands the codebase... so he has to be humored
00:32 < drm> dmacks: my plan was to nuke it from the new 10.4 tree ... it even says this in the wiki
00:33 < pogma> heh, people are quite unhappy with this nested function change
00:33 < pogma> http://lists.apple.com/archives/Xcode-users/2005/Nov/msg00402.html
00:33 * dmacks has already found a case where it may be unsolvable without substantial rewrite.
00:33 < msachs> There will be a flag to enable them in Xcode 2.3, btw.
00:33 < msachs> dmacks: Where?
00:34 < dmacks> xdigger.
00:34 < msachs> And yeah, the lack of release note /is/ considered a mistake...
00:35 < dmacks> drm: python21 didn't even compile in the June makeworld.
00:35 < drm> dmacks: if you're gonna tell me that it has never built in 10.4T, then clearly its harmless to remove it
00:36 < dmacks> I'll ask around, but that's how it appears to my eye.
00:37 < drm> yeah... i think that's why it got removed from 10.4T-stable, actually: didn't build in April
00:39 < pogma> sounds like a good reason to remove it
00:40 < drm> msachs, dmacks: so in msachs' 11-07 build, are there things attributable to XCode 2.2 which haven't yet been fixed?
00:41 < drm> pogma: maybe it was a mistake on my part, but when i moved stuff from 10.3/unstable to 10.4-transitional/unstable, 'doesn't build' was not used as a reason not to move something
00:42 < dmacks> drm: Yes, many.
00:43 < drm> so we got a bunch of crap... different from the previous time, when stuff didn't get moved until it had been fixed up, and lots of stuff got left behind
00:43 < drm> dmacks: are we making a list?
00:45 < msachs> dmacks: Fixed. Shall I mail you the revised .patch ?
00:45 < dmacks> msachs: Not my package:)
00:46 < dmacks> May as well commit it with rev-up in both 10.3 and 10.4T
00:46 < msachs> Not anyone's... I'll commit it myself, then. And I'll lisppaste it so that you can see the technique.
00:46 < dmacks> Cool
00:46 < msachs> I think my technote will be going live on ADC soon.
00:47 < msachs> The trick with this one was that because some variables local to the outer function were modified in the inner function, they had to be added to the formerly-inner function as parameters and passed in by *reference*.
00:47 * dmacks figured it was something like that, then rememebered "hey, not my package!":)
00:49 < lisppaste> msachs pasted "xdigger patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/14362
00:50 < dmacks> looks nice:)
00:51 < msachs> 10.3 and 10.4T differ for xdigger, so I'm only going to commit the change to 10.4T.
00:52 < msachs> FWIW, it fails to build on my system because I don't have group games.
00:53 < dmacks> 10.3/10.4T differ?
00:54 < msachs> Oh, nope, my mistake.
00:54 < msachs> It also doesn't use C++, so I'm going to nuke the hardcoded gcc-3.3 in the info while I'm there.
00:54 < drm> msachs: perhaps it need builddepends on passwd (to solve the 'group games' prob)
00:55 < msachs> drm: Nope, just a regular depends on that. Shall I fix that too, then?
00:55 < drm> yeah
00:55 < dmacks> Wait, it has a Depends:passwd and that doesn't make you a games user at compile-timeż
00:55 < drm> but a regular depends should imply a builddepends... did you say 'no' when passwd installed itself on your system?
00:56 < msachs> Ah, mayhaps.
00:56 < msachs> Oh, no, I know what I did.
00:56 < msachs> I symlinked /sw from my old partition to this one :)
00:58 < drm> dmacks: somebody needs to write 'Vision with Almost Generic Algorithms'
00:59 < dmacks> "Vision, Including Almost Generic Recursive Alogrithms"
01:00 < drm> thanks
01:01 < drm> now we can use the acronym :)
01:02 < msachs> Is it just me or does xdigger not actually work?
01:02 < msachs> I can launch it but I can't move the guy...
01:06 < dmacks> Wow, that sucks. Same non-result on 10.3 build pre your-patch.
01:08 < msachs> How did you know that the scores file wasn't "persistent"?
01:08 < dmacks> Wasn't a ConfFiles.
01:08 < msachs> Right, but how did you notice?
01:09 < dmacks> "persistent" in the fink/package-manager sense, not "it doesn't save the data")
01:10 -!- shres is now known as hala
01:10 -!- hala is now known as shres
01:10 < dmacks> I was looking at chmod a+w, thinking "there has to be a better way" (which led to group=games), then wondered what else might be less-than-ideal with score-file
01:11 < msachs> What I'm trying to figure out is whether anyone actually plays this -- maybe it works with other X11's or something (I'm using Apple's, you?)
01:11 < dmacks> Apple X11 here as well.
01:11 < drm> since its no longer maintined, it probably worked under 10.0 and was subseqently abandoned
01:11 < drm> or something like that
01:12 < dmacks> Ooh, it doesn't install the manpage either.
01:13 < dmacks> Was cattrap's, unchanged since 10.2 (not -gcc3.3) October 2002.
01:13 < msachs> Sounds like a "nuke it" to me.
01:15 * dmacks thinks so too.
01:17 < drm> 3..2..1..boom
01:22 < msachs> Oh, yes, you asked how to get everything building. What if we were to list broken packages on the wiki along with the rationale for having everything building, send a mailing out to affected maintainers inviting them to have first crack at either fixing their packages or acking that they're still with us enough to review a fix submitted by someone else in a timely fashion, and then send a mail out to fink-devel a week or two later. Peopl
01:23 < msachs> I'll be more vigilant about watching fink-devel and IRC for people having problems.
01:24 < dmacks> ~295 broken in the ppc build.
01:26 < drm> dmacks: not counting things whose dependencies didn't build...some of those may have problems of their own
01:26 < dmacks> Right.
01:27 < dmacks> OTOH, some that do build may have serious but easily-remedied validation warnings under HEAD that aren't released yet.
01:28 < drm> msachs: its worth a shot...not sure what the response rate will be, though
01:28 < msachs> If we get 20 people it can be done in a day.
01:30 < drm> we need a bug-squashing party
01:30 < dmacks> Anyone heard from clef lately?
01:32 < msachs> !seen clef
01:32 < Melian> clef was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 66d 4h 10m 17s ago, saying: 'anyone ever done AJAX stuff?'.
01:38 -!- drm [n=drm@65.198.5.163] has quit ["Leaving"]
01:39 -!- megahal [n=astrange@c-67-163-116-208.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
01:46 -!- sugoi [n=Asian@71-178.69-92-cpe.cableone.net] has joined #fink
01:54 < sugoi> sup y'all
02:18 < dmacks> alo
02:24 -!- dmacks [n=dmacks@pdpc/supporter/active/dmacks] has quit ["leaving"]
02:30 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info."]
02:30 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #fink
02:48 -!- sugoi [n=Asian@71-178.69-92-cpe.cableone.net] has quit ["Qt ROCKS"]
02:53 -!- cianhughes [n=cian@cian.ws] has joined #fink
02:57 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@202.144.95.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:00 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@202.144.95.244] has joined #fink
03:30 -!- mbroeken [n=chatzill@fswfirewall.fss.uu.nl] has joined #fink
03:31 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@202.144.95.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:32 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@202.144.95.244] has joined #fink
04:00 -!- kane_ [n=kane@perl.xs4all.nl] has joined #fink
04:03 -!- KraMer [n=mark@adsl-70-240-210-101.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
04:11 -!- mbroeken [n=chatzill@fswfirewall.fss.uu.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
04:14 -!- mbroeken [n=chatzill@fswfirewall.fss.uu.nl] has joined #fink
04:25 -!- chris01 [n=chris01@212.126.165.246] has joined #fink
04:50 -!- sid77 [n=sid77@host-84-222-58-199.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #fink
04:51 -!- Fang [n=Fang@2002:56c5:c114:1:0:0:0:1] has joined #fink
04:52 -!- sid77 is now known as sid77_
05:31 -!- sid77_ is now known as sid77
05:32 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@202.144.95.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
06:04 < chris01> pogma: are you here?
07:09 -!- gopherd [n=irclogge@milwwi12-vlan514-a10.milwwi.tds.net] has joined #fink
07:11 -!- sid77 is now known as sid77_
08:07 < pogma> chris01: hi
08:09 < chris01> hi pogma
08:09 < chris01> i am releasing a new openldap package right now. Thanks again for your help.
08:10 < pogma> I didn't do anything, so no problem :)
08:11 < chris01> now committed. Could anybody on 10.4T try out the new openldap packages and see if they compile?
08:12 < chris01> newmanbe: i have very limited knowledge about openldap
08:12 < chris01> But, try the new openldap23 package
08:13 < chris01> newmanbe: openldap23 is also available on 10.3
08:14 -!- akh [n=akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has joined #fink
08:14 < gopherd> Welcome back akh!
08:18 -!- xhrl_ [n=ThomasW@S0106000f3d5d5bed.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
08:21 -!- rudy [n=rudy@growl/rudy] has joined #fink
08:21 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
08:38 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #fink
09:14 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@38.112.8.74] has joined #fink
09:20 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@59.92.193.100] has joined #fink
09:20 < cirdan> morning
09:22 < akh> yes, yes it is.
09:23 < kane-xs> what!? again!?!?!?
09:24 < akh> Afraid so.
09:24 < cirdan> Ahhh! The light!
09:24 < cirdan> it's so bright from the newfallen snow
09:24 < cirdan> :-)
09:39 < akh> heh
09:40 * cirdan struggles to find a bootable dos iso for repairing a cdrom firmware :-(
09:40 < akh> eww
09:42 < cirdan> yeah
09:43 < cirdan> stupid lg cdrw used an ATA command internally
09:43 < cirdan> so if that normal command is issued, it corrupts the firmware
09:43 < cirdan> which it did...and the model name is medded up, so it's hard to reflash it
09:44 < cirdan> the comp has no proppy
09:44 < cirdan> froppy
09:44 < cirdan> :-)
09:44 < akh> Floppies are overrated anyway (except for that whole "emergency boot" thing)
09:45 < akh> ;-)
09:45 < cirdan> even then
09:45 < cirdan> usb and cdr's can be bootable
09:45 < akh> Yup
09:46 -!- KraMer [n=mark@adsl-70-240-210-101.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
09:46 < chris01> i have a problem/question about libtool and shared libraries:
09:47 < chris01> the subversion libraries get installed as e.g. /sw/lib/libsvn_client-1.0.0.0.dylib
09:47 < chris01> which seems kind of odd to me.
09:47 < chris01> could anybody with more libtool knowledge comment on that?
09:49 < pogma> what does -version-info say on the link line?
09:49 < pogma> or in the Makefile?
09:50 < pogma> and what does otool say is the compatibility version number of the lib?
09:53 < chris01> otool: /sw/lib/libsvn_wc-1.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
09:54 < chris01> for the other things i will need to rebuild first.
09:54 < chris01> the problem is:
09:55 < chris01> i want to upgrade svn to svn13, that links to a new apr version (1.2.2), which is binary incompatible with the old apr (0.9.7)
09:56 < chris01> therefore the new svn13 libraries will also be binary incompatible.
09:56 < chris01> (at least that is how i understand it right now)
09:56 < chris01> so, i want to have svn-shlibs and a svn13-shlibs packages that can be installed at the same time.
10:01 < pogma> I think they must be using the -release tag to get that kind of versioned library
10:02 < pogma> But the subversion build system is special, so I can not find it on their svn
10:05 < chris01> pogma: i am building it right now.
10:12 -!- newmanbe_ [n=newmanbe@tor/session/x-ae201dd904b30f42] has joined #fink
10:17 -!- sid77_ [n=sid77@host-84-222-58-199.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit ["http://slackintosh.org/"]
10:21 < chris01> newmanbe: were you able to build and use the new openldap23 packages?
10:23 < chris01> pogma: they don't seem to have a version-info on the link line.
10:24 < pogma> do they have a -release ?
10:24 < pogma> or lisppaste a chunk, might be easier
10:24 < chris01> i will
10:24 < chris01> lisppaste: url?
10:24 < lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink and enter your paste.
10:26 < lisppaste> chris01 pasted "link line for svn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/14375
10:27 < pogma> Ah, okay, libsvn_client-1.la would give you libsvn_client-1.0.0.0.dylib, sure
10:28 < chris01> mhm... what does that mean?
10:29 < pogma> the name of the library is libsvn_client-1
10:30 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info."]
10:30 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #fink
10:30 < pogma> a bit gnome like really, they are prepared for version 2 of svn to be totally binary incompatible with version 1
10:30 < pogma> and are not using libtool versioning
10:31 < chris01> aha. ok. yes, i think that's what their official statement is, anyway.
10:31 < chris01> All svn 1.x libraries should be binary compatible.
10:31 < pogma> no need to make extra lib packages
10:32 < chris01> how would you solve my problem with the different linked in apr versions?
10:32 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
10:33 < pogma> svn libraries do not expose apr functions for others to use, presumably, so are binary compatible with older versions
10:33 < pogma> just link the new apr and be happy
10:33 < pogma> Hi rajesh
10:33 < pogma> sigh, darn tab completion
10:33 < pogma> Hi RangerRick :)
10:34 < chris01> pogma: ok, thanks for the explanations. I wanted to have both svn 1.2 and svn 1.3 available. But, maybe I should not...
10:35 < pogma> I wouldn't bother, more work, little gain
10:36 < chris01> ok.
10:36 < RangerRick> howd pogma
10:36 < RangerRick> howdy, too
10:43 -!- mbroeken [n=chatzill@fswfirewall.fss.uu.nl] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]"]
10:43 < cirdan> morning
10:43 < cirdan> get any snow, RR?
10:46 < RangerRick> nope
10:46 < RangerRick> it's probably my sunny disposition
10:46 < RangerRick> and/or solar death ray
10:48 -!- regeya [n=shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
10:49 < pogma> Aw crap libtool HEAD no longer passes all tests on darwin
10:49 * pogma is sad
10:49 < cirdan> aww
10:49 < pogma> darn Ralf for adding new tests :)
10:50 < cirdan> :-)
10:50 < chris01> how difficult would it be to implement obsolete packages?
10:50 < cirdan> huh?
10:50 < chris01> e.g. to ease the name change of a package?
10:50 < cirdan> ah
10:51 < cirdan> it's much easier when using apt :-)
10:51 < chris01> I was thinking of e.g. a field "Obsoletes: foo"
10:51 < cirdan> make the new package empty, and dep on the new name
10:51 < cirdan> well, it'd be a hack, but a useful one :-)
10:51 < chris01> which would mean that foo is automatically outdated and will be updated by the package having "Obsoletes: foo"
10:52 < cirdan> I think conflicts/replaces is enbough
10:52 < cirdan> enough
10:52 < cirdan> and you can also provide the old package name
10:52 < chris01> yes, that's how these things are nowadays handled. But it causes problems, in some cases.
10:52 < chris01> E.g. look at all the new -unified packages.
10:53 < cirdan> because fink isnt so smart
10:53 < RangerRick> it would still have to turn into conflicts/replaces under the covers because of the limitations of dpkg
10:53 < cirdan> what fink needs to realize is to uninstall the oldpackage before installing the new
10:53 < chris01> yes
10:54 * cirdan thinks unified is stupid, shuld just keep the orig. package name
10:54 < RangerRick> cirdan: I tried, it didn't work
10:54 < cirdan> and provides old package
10:54 < cirdan> why?
10:54 < cirdan> too many versioned deps?
10:54 < RangerRick> I don't remember, but it was some weird complicated interaction between the old and new versions, and replacing and such
10:54 < cirdan> or not enough
10:54 < cirdan> ah
10:54 < cirdan> rm -rf /sw
10:54 < RangerRick> I spent a long time trying to figure out another way to do it
10:54 < RangerRick> 'cause I hate unified too
10:54 < RangerRick> but it was really the only way to have a clean upgrade
10:55 < cirdan> you can prolly switch back after a while :-)
10:55 < cirdan> yeah, i guess it's cause non-ssl and ssl could easily get confused
10:55 < cirdan> everything would need to be versioned
10:55 < RangerRick> it wasn't just that
10:56 < RangerRick> but I honestly don't remember specifically
10:56 < cirdan> heh
10:56 < RangerRick> a combination of upgrades, splitoffs, and such
10:56 < chris01> why i was asking: i am about to change svn to system-openssl (with svn 1.3.0) too. And i was looking at the best way to avoid -unified
10:57 < RangerRick> I wasn't able to find a way
10:57 * chris01 thinks if RangerRick can't find a way, who could?
10:57 < RangerRick> I think the issue was... kdelibs3-ssl conflicts with kdelibs3, kdelibs3-ssl-dev conflicts with kdelibs3-dev
10:57 < RangerRick> you can't just call the new package "kdelibs3" and splitoffs
10:58 < RangerRick> hm, no, that's not right
10:58 < RangerRick> crap, I don't remember anymore
10:58 < RangerRick> I just remember fighting with it for 2 weeks before I gave up and made entirely new package names :)
10:59 < chris01> So, to summarize: we could hack fink to handle it, but dpkg will still be too stupid. Is that correct?
10:59 < RangerRick> I think so... but who knows? I'm not willing to devote the time to finding another crazy hack, there's better things to work on :)
11:00 < RangerRick> if you can figure out a way to make the upgrade work, more power to you
11:00 < RangerRick> I figured I'd get rid of the -unified packages in 10.5
11:00 < RangerRick> :)
11:00 < cirdan> can dump them for 10.4 tree
11:00 < chris01> ah.. yes, that might make sense.
11:01 < chris01> Have -unified for 10.3 and 10.4T, and dump it for 10.4 and 10.5
11:01 < pogma> 'specially if we users to rm -rf /sw and start again :)
11:01 -!- sid77 [n=sid77@host-84-222-58-199.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #fink
11:01 < pogma> ask users
11:02 < chris01> or we could hava a special 10.4T->10.4 upgrade script that handles these cases.
11:02 < cirdan> yeah
11:02 < cirdan> dist-upgrade :-p
11:04 < RangerRick> if we had unstable bindists we could get everyone to upgrade that way
11:04 < RangerRick> well, except for non-distributable
11:04 < cirdan> that would work too
11:04 < chris01> cirdan: aaahhh... dist-upgrade
11:06 * cirdan has wanted that working in fink for a while :-)
11:06 < chris01> btw: is the official suggestion right now to use system-openssl?
11:06 < cirdan> it the basics are there
11:06 < cirdan> but we need to figure out what needs to be done for the upgrade
11:09 -!- dmacks [n=dmacks@pool-70-17-223-249.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #fink
11:12 < chris01> hi dmacks
11:13 < dmacks> hi chris01
11:13 < pogma> the system openssl stuff allows binaries to be redistributed
11:14 < pogma> It would be best to use libgnutls, in my opinion, but not too many packages work with it
11:14 < dmacks> chris01: I fixed your mail-gnupg-pm (missing dep).
11:15 < chris01> dmacks: thanks.
11:15 * chris01 is surprised being the maintainer
11:15 < chris01> I have another idea on how i could update svn to use system-openssl without using unified:
11:16 < chris01> i just keep having svn and svn-ssl, but both build exactly the same stuff.
11:16 < chris01> and then a dist-upgrade could move all -ssl users to the non-ssl packages
11:16 < chris01> What do you think about that?
11:19 < dmacks> chris01: Why not have svl-ssl be a bundle that Depends:svn?
11:20 < dmacks> (we've talked about having Obsoletes: before...seems like a good idea IMO)
11:20 < akh> dmacks: Yeah.
11:22 < akh> IIRC, the problem is with the -shlibs and -dev splitoffs though--in cases where there's just the base package you can get away with foo and a foo-ssl splitoff.
11:22 < akh> (cf. the current wget)
11:23 < chris01> exactly.
11:23 < dmacks> Ah right.
11:24 < chris01> so, i now tend to do this hack of havint two packages doing the same thing.
11:24 < akh> When it's just the base package, foo-ssl has nothing in it.
11:24 < akh> (or a file)
11:25 < akh> Yeah--1 file gets made up in the .info file.
11:27 < akh> (again, cf wget.info for 1.10.2-2)
11:27 < akh> oops--1.10.2-1
11:27 < dmacks> The current svn-*-pmXXX dependency jungle appears to be broken and/or finding a hole in the dep engine.
11:28 < akh> A hole in the dep engine? That's impossible. :-)
11:28 < dmacks> Yeah...we have a perfectly cromulent engine!
11:29 * akh almost went with "unpossible" there.
11:29 < dmacks> Wait...maybe just a hole in the buildworld. nm:)
11:30 < akh> There's a song cue there.
11:30 < dmacks> %% I'm fixing a hole in the build engine//that keeps my mind a'ponderin' %% ?
11:31 < RangerRick> haha
11:32 < akh> Better than what I was thinking. ;-)
11:35 < dmacks> RangerRick: I nuked obsolete language versions of *-pmXXX and *-pyXX last night in 10.4T, which included some of yours. Should your exp/ be synced somehow?
11:40 < chris01> dmacks: "The current svn-*-pmXXX dependency jungle..." -> :)
11:41 < dmacks> Looks like the build world can't figure out Depends on a Provides of an internal SplitOff package.
11:41 < dmacks> Or something. Dunno...
11:42 < chris01> dmacks: do you think i should change/fix something with svn-*-pmXXX
11:43 < chris01> ?
11:43 < dmacks> I don't know enough about how it works to be able to answer. If it builds on a clean fink installation (i.e., no installed svn* and no svn* .deb available) it's fine.
11:44 < dmacks> i.e., perhaps it's easy to upgrade from old versions but hard to start from scratch.
11:45 < chris01> ok, i will look into it. Thanks!
11:53 < dmacks> "X windows: Don't laugh. It could be YOUR thesis project."
11:57 < akh> hehe
11:58 -!- chris01 [n=chris01@212.126.165.246] has quit ["bye"]
12:01 * akh is getting tired of saving every time I change a page.
12:05 -!- chris01 [n=chris01@212.126.165.246] has joined #fink
12:12 < RangerRick> dmacks: I'll fix 'em
12:12 < RangerRick> saw the changes, hand't followed them yet
12:12 < dmacks> RangerRick: cool.
12:14 < dmacks> RangerRick: also, your opengl-pmXXX need Depends on perlXXX-core
12:15 < RangerRick> ok
12:16 < chris01> RangerRick: how do you like the idea of having svn and svn-ssl building the same stuff using system-openssl? Instead of a -unified package?
12:16 < RangerRick> chris01: that seems a reasonable choice
12:16 < RangerRick> would certainly make things easier
12:16 < chris01> Would that be ok for your kde packages? they could then just depend on svn from now on.
12:17 < RangerRick> yeah
12:17 < chris01> and we would drop svn-ssl for 10.4 and 10.5, having dist-upgrade move from svn-ssl to svn.
12:17 < RangerRick> sounds good
12:18 < RangerRick> or don't even worry about dist-upgrade; have the svn-ssl install spit out a big fat warning that the package is deprecated :)
12:18 < chris01> so, the only thing i should verify is if a switch from e.g. svn-client-ssl to svn-client works without problem.s
12:18 < chris01> yes, makes sense.
12:19 < dmacks> Set *all* svn-ssl* components be BDO:true to help catch stuff that uses the old names?
12:19 < chris01> oh... thats a nice idea. Thanks dmacks!
12:20 < dmacks> If we had a standard Description format "[OBSOLETE use %s instead]", 'cleanup' could automatically remove them when they are no longer depended-on
12:21 < chris01> yes... that would be nice.
12:21 < RangerRick> sounds disturbing:More information about using "Sample" may be found on its man page, which can be retrieved by entering "man sample" in the Terminal.
12:21 < RangerRick> I'm afraid to "man sample"
12:21 < dmacks> ha
12:22 < akh> C'mon. That's not even enough to disqualify a guy from entering a seminary, even with the new rules. ;-)
12:23 < chris01> dmacks: or we could have a new field: Deprecated: foo, which would tell fink that the package is deprecated by foo.
12:25 < dmacks> chris01: Yeah. But the fact that a pkg is obsolete needs to be in the .deb too. Tagging Description accomplishes that without requiring us to hack dpkg and makes it clear to the user what a package is also. A .info Deprecated: would generate the tagged Descrpition I guess.
12:26 < chris01> ah... right. i understand.
12:27 < chris01> so, shall we invent a standard right now?
12:33 -!- shreyas [n=sshreyas@59.92.144.6] has joined #fink
12:42 -!- shreyas [n=sshreyas@59.92.144.6] has quit ["What can i do? I am just being me"]
12:44 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@59.92.193.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:49 -!- chris01 [n=chris01@212.126.165.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
12:56 -!- chris01 [n=chris01@212.126.165.246] has joined #fink
13:01 < dmacks> chris01: I just slapped some ideas on the wiki.
13:03 < chris01> dmacks: cool. Will have a look.
13:06 < runelind> RangerRick: any luck with KDE?
13:06 < chris01> dmacks: sounds very promising.
13:08 < RangerRick> runelind: got kdepim3 to build
13:08 < RangerRick> just a bit more to finish
13:08 < RangerRick> I took a detour to work on gstreamer 0.10
13:11 < akh> Take your time.
13:11 < akh> ;-)
13:11 < RangerRick> hehe
13:11 < RangerRick> I like the part where my machine crashed in the middle of writing the new dpkg status though
13:11 < RangerRick> first kernel panic in a long time
13:11 < RangerRick> I think the new logic board I got is not so good
13:11 < dmacks> heh
13:12 < akh> That's a heckuva place for a panic.
13:12 < RangerRick> yeah :(
13:13 < akh> For a while, my box liked to go comatose halfway through builds.
13:13 < RangerRick> looks like it maybe didn't actually write it
13:14 < RangerRick> was able to just do a reinstall of the debs that just got built and everything's kosher
13:14 < dmacks> (RangerRick: libxml++2 needs dependencies on glib2-dev/-shlibs and libsigc++2/-shlibs)
13:16 < akh> RangerRick: that's good.
13:19 < RangerRick> builddeps you mean?
13:19 < dmacks> Yeah. Are they they are runtime deps of other Depends you already have?
13:21 < RangerRick> I'm not sure, I'll have to look into it
13:21 < RangerRick> it's been a while since I packaged that
13:25 < dmacks> RangerRick: /me was just reading the ppc buildworld failures
13:28 -!- akh is now known as akh_afk
13:38 -!- Reid [n=Reid@w002.z065106067.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #fink
13:46 < cirdan> gar....wtf
13:48 < rudy> dancir!
13:49 < cirdan> dury!
13:53 -!- rudy [n=rudy@growl/rudy] has quit []
13:54 -!- chris01 [n=chris01@212.126.165.246] has quit ["bye"]
14:22 < cirdan> does fink have any sorrt of mime control? like adding new entries for new apps?
14:24 -!- Fang [n=Fang@2002:56c5:c114:1:0:0:0:1] has quit ["PHP: Ten million newbies can't be wrong."]
14:25 -!- Reid [n=Reid@w002.z065106067.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has left #fink []
14:34 -!- sid77 is now known as sid77_
14:35 < dmacks> cirdan: nope.
14:36 < cirdan> you know, a mime is a terrible thing to waste.
14:37 < dmacks> Well, you can mess with share/mime*, but that's only as useful as knowing what to stash there. I think it's mostly auto-generated from a source so your changes could get over-written.
14:37 < cirdan> i guess after updating mplayer i should try menu again :-)
14:37 * dmacks has no problem wasting mimes. /me attaches silencer, kills off three just for fun.
14:38 < cirdan> hehe
14:38 < cirdan> i want a scilenced ruger .22 :-)
14:39 < cirdan> i guess it's not possible to run fink in a chroot, is it
14:39 < dmacks> not well.
14:39 < cirdan> darn
14:40 < cirdan> aww...Failed: phase compiling: elinks-0.10.4-1 failed
14:40 * dmacks ducks
14:40 < cirdan> As a last resort, you can try e-mailing the maintainer directly: Daniel Macks
14:40 < cirdan> ;-)
14:40 < RangerRick> haha
14:40 < dmacks> hence the duck
14:40 < cirdan> yup
14:40 < RangerRick> a DUCK!
14:40 < cirdan> connect.c:12:93: gnutls/compat4.h: No such file or directory
14:41 < cirdan> tsk. tsk.
14:41 < cirdan> MRDUCKS!
14:41 < dmacks> We should adjust that msg to note that the next-to-last-resort is "fix it yourself"
14:41 < cirdan> *cough*
14:42 < dmacks> Why ain'cha usin' -ssl?
14:42 < cirdan> heh
14:43 < cirdan> there is a compat.ssh
14:43 < cirdan> err .h
14:43 < cirdan> ./src/ssl/connect.c:#include /* FIXME: this should be removed after upgrading GNUTLS code! */
14:43 < dmacks> elinks just released a new major version...Maybe I'll unify them with system-openssl when I upgrade.
14:44 < cirdan> weird
14:44 < dmacks> Is gnutls is trying to follow the freetype model of compatibility?
14:45 < cirdan> please make *links* provide www-browser
14:46 < dmacks> Maybe they should all update-alternatives /sw/bin/browser?
14:46 < cirdan> i use it so ppl can view the html docs in a terminal window
14:48 < cirdan> hmm, something is forcing elinks
14:53 < cirdan> sudo apt-get install libgettext3-dev=0.14.5-1
14:54 < cirdan> Failed: Fink::SysState: Could not resolve inconsistent dependencies
14:54 < cirdan> bindist--
14:54 < cirdan> wtf! i changed it to false and it's still trying to use apt-get
14:55 < RangerRick> I had that happen recently
14:55 < cirdan> !lart fink
14:55 < RangerRick> hadn't had a chance to look into it yet
14:55 * Melian plops fink into a giant vat of herring
14:55 < cirdan> really pissing me off
14:56 < cirdan> sudo fink index does nothing
14:56 < cirdan> just returns, no output
14:59 < cirdan> and forcing the index didn't help
15:00 < cirdan> ARRRR! --no-use-binary-dist doesn't even help
15:00 < cirdan> w.t.f.
15:04 < cirdan> kl;eadikusdafhulisfadc
15:29 -!- akh_afk is now known as akh
15:36 < akh> damn, damn, damn! Made a 58 Meg postscript file that's all white plotting on a white background.
15:36 < cirdan> hahaha
15:37 < dmacks> Just plot it on black paper...
15:37 < RangerRick> hahahaha
15:37 < cirdan> it should be easy to fix
15:37 < cirdan> it's only postscript
15:37 < cirdan> dump it to text and edit it :-)
15:38 < akh> Illustrator won't even open the damn thing.
15:38 < akh> I'm just going to generate it again with the right color map.
15:39 < cirdan> ps2ascii :-)
15:39 < dmacks> Yeah, *that* would make it better:)
15:40 < akh> It's easier just to change "black" "red" and "blue" not to use 24-bit indices.
15:42 < cirdan> don't forget "white"
15:43 * RangerRick sees akh print an all-black sheet of paper, now
15:43 < dmacks> hehe:)
15:43 < akh> Nah. White's default for PS output in this case.
15:44 < akh> (and it's just going to an EPS file to be converted to a TIFF, so no paper :-) )
15:45 < dmacks> Coupla years ago I was visiting a friend's lab...we watched as a nobel laureate printed a poster on the poster printer containing a mix of filenames, thumbnails, and "broken graphic" icons instead of his actual panels. Twice.
15:45 < akh> Yeah, can't say that I'm surprised.
15:46 * akh was worried that my file was too chunky for ImageMagick for a moment there.
15:47 < akh> Luckily for once I don't have a KDE or OO.org compile going on in the background. ;-)
15:53 < dmacks> Why not?
15:53 < RangerRick> fink rebuild kdepim3
15:54 < akh> RangerRick: pass
15:55 < cirdan> fail.
15:55 < akh> 3 notrump
15:56 * dmacks finally no longer the three-man.
15:56 < akh> wait, I bid out of turn. Misdeal
15:57 < cirdan> heh
16:00 -!- sid77_ is now known as sid77
16:00 * dmacks mails doxygen's maintainer about new %v that maybe won't dump core while building kde.
16:00 < akh> That's crazy talk.
16:01 < dmacks> Relax...we'll find some other core-dumper soon enough:)
16:01 < akh> Maybe I can break cvs to do it while I try to get it to stop freezing up.
16:02 < akh> That'd be unpopular. ;-)
16:17 -!- akh [n=akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit []
16:26 -!- rudy [n=rudy@growl/rudy] has joined #fink
16:34 -!- sid77 [n=sid77@host-84-222-58-199.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit ["http://slackintosh.org/"]
16:44 -!- rudy [n=rudy@growl/rudy] has quit ["fleeing the evil nasa"]
17:14 -!- regeya [n=shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:36 -!- asparagui [n=billy@mo-71-0-216-7.dhcp.sprint-hsd.net] has joined #fink
17:42 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"]
17:49 -!- asparagui [n=billy@mo-71-0-216-7.dhcp.sprint-hsd.net] has left #fink []
17:56 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
18:30 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info."]
18:30 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #fink
18:32 -!- kane_ [n=kane@perl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:40 -!- asari [n=asari@p297e70.t032ah00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #Fink
19:14 -!- gopherd [n=irclogge@unaffiliated/gopherd] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:46 -!- drm [n=drm@tux4.math.duke.edu] has joined #fink
19:47 -!- drm [n=drm@tux4.math.duke.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
19:48 -!- drm [n=drm@tux4.math.duke.edu] has joined #fink
19:48 < drm> Murr, are you around?
19:49 < drm> ok, general question: what do i do with a package whose postinstall and pre/post-remove scripts are so messed up that it can be neither removed nor reinstalled?
19:49 < drm> s/with/about/
20:14 -!- asari [n=asari@p297e70.t032ah00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:21 < dmacks> drm: Step 1: shoot the maintainer.
20:21 < drm> yeah...well
20:22 < dmacks> (are you asking for your machine, or how to fix it for public use?)
20:22 < drm> the code dies under unexpected circumstances... probably worked ok on 10.2 and/or 10.3
20:22 < drm> i've fixed it for my machine, by editing some silly script in the installed package and using a --force option in dpkg
20:24 < dmacks> lisppaste the busted script?
20:25 < drm> sorry, i've removed the package :)
20:25 < dmacks> Is it in the distro?
20:25 < drm> i.e., postinst was calling some script from the package, which dies, and then the thing can't be installed
20:25 < drm> (never made it out of unstable)
20:26 < drm> the package is 'webmin', but i don't recommend trying it
20:26 < drm> basically, when you install it runs its 'start' script, but that failed for me
20:27 < drm> then when you uninstall it runs a 'stop' script, which bombed because it couldn't find the PID of the running process :/
20:27 < jake1> haha
20:27 < jake1> i just became a member of the Church of Body Modification
20:28 * dmacks reads .info
20:28 < dmacks> So if %p/etc/%n/stop is absent, the problem is solved?
20:28 < drm> (the pre/post remove/install just call some scripts that were installed by the package
20:29 < jake1> damn Xcodes is a huge file
20:29 < drm> well, i edited %p/etc/%n/stop to check for the PID first rather than assuming it was there, but, yeah
20:29 < jake1> almost 900MB
20:29 < jake1> that is alot
20:31 < dmacks> Make a new %r that has a functional PreRm, then upgrade to it.
20:31 < dmacks> "If a version of the package is already installed, call ' 1.
20:31 < dmacks> old-prerm upgrade new-version
20:31 < drm> yup
20:31 < drm> would be nice to have a functional postinst too
20:31 < dmacks> ' If the script runs but exits with a non-zero exit status, dpkg will attempt 'new-prerm failed-upgrade old-version'"
20:33 < dmacks> Wow, that's horribly broken there.
20:34 < drm> toldja not to :)
20:34 * dmacks didn't...just reading the .info.
20:34 < drm> ah
20:36 < drm> which part is broken?
20:37 < dmacks> passwd
20:37 < drm> oooo, yeah
20:38 < dmacks> 501 isn't always present, and we have shadow passwords now.
20:38 < jake1> make fink compile faster
20:38 < jake1> DO IT
20:38 < jake1> NOW
20:38 < jake1> I DNT SEE IT HAPPENING
20:38 < drm> so maybe this should be removed from 10.4 for now, dmacks?
20:38 < drm> maybe even 10.3?
20:38 < dmacks> drm: Yeah. It's long unmaintained.
20:39 < jake1> anyone use OS X on an x86 yet?
20:39 < drm> jake1: we could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you
20:39 < jake1> lol
20:39 < jake1> dnt worry i dnt work for apple or any law enforcement agency
20:39 < jake1> not the last time i checked anyways
20:40 < jake1> in fact saying you did it is not a crime... it's actually doing it that might be questionable
20:40 < jake1> unless you are a developer
20:40 < dmacks> *grr* apt will break dependencies.
20:40 < drm> we are developers... that's why we can't tell you
20:40 < jake1> ah
20:40 < jake1> i was not asking how to do it i was just simply asking if you had done it
20:41 < jake1> that is not a crime
20:41 < jake1> maybe i did it
20:42 < drm> we don't talk about things subject to NDA's here
20:42 < jake1> NDA's??
20:42 < jake1> wats that?
20:43 < agliodbs> drm, dmacks: btw, nice job on fink
20:43 < dmacks> Thanks!
20:43 < agliodbs> I was going to use PortAuthority but I find I don't actually need it
20:43 < drm> agliodbs: thanks!
20:44 < drm> agliodbs: and thanks for getting me hooked up with the mailing list
20:44 < drm> agliodbs: maybe someday i will find time to participate in the discussion :/
20:44 < agliodbs> well, there's not much going on right now
20:45 < drm> yeah
20:45 < agliodbs> but it's the right place to ask questions about bylaws etc.
20:45 < dmacks> apt-get automatically passes --force-depends to dpkg? WTF????
20:45 < drm> dmacks: are you doing --recursive?
20:46 < dmacks> No
20:46 * drm summons vasi
20:46 < agliodbs> now, a question: I've been trying to set up my ibook to run a minimal WM on Xorg
20:46 < agliodbs> so that I can run Kate and Kmail
20:46 < agliodbs> should I use quartzwm?
20:47 < agliodbs> or something else?
20:47 < drm> you are using fink's xorg rather than apple's x11?
20:50 < drm> the
20:50 < lisppaste> dmacks pasted "'apt-get remove' uses --force-depends?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/14395
20:50 < drm> the reason i ask is that i'm not sure quartzwm runs perfectly if you're not using apple's x11
20:51 < drm> dmacks: you are running HEAD?
20:51 < agliodbs> yeah
20:52 < dmacks> drm: I'm running raw apt-get
20:52 < agliodbs> the stuff I read said that KDE apps didn't run well on Apple's X11
20:52 < agliodbs> and a couple people here confirmed that
20:52 < drm> agliodbs: well, "minimal" and "KDE" don't belong in the same sentence :)
20:52 < dmacks> ha
20:53 < agliodbs> well, "minimal" compared to running the whole KDE desktop
20:53 < drm> agliodbs: seriously, wouldn't you use some kde-standard desktop if you are gonna run a bunch of kde things?
20:53 < drm> ah
20:53 < agliodbs> I tried that, it ate all my RAM
20:53 < dmacks> evilwm calls itself "Minimalist window manager for the X Window System"
20:53 < agliodbs> ok, will try that
20:54 < drm> i'm partial to fvwm2, but that's just because i've been using it forever
20:54 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@pcp09354616pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #fink
20:54 * dmacks nods @ drm:)
20:54 < agliodbs> well, I just need something a little better than twm
20:54 < dmacks> So basically anything.
20:54 < agliodbs> yeah
20:54 < dmacks> (well, except 4Dwm)
20:54 < drm> we have a whole x11-wm section
20:54 < drm> you can browse
20:55 < agliodbs> I did try switching to Thunderbird and TextEdit
20:55 < agliodbs> but those aren't working for me
20:55 -!- akh [n=akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:55 < agliodbs> hey, akh!
20:55 < akh> hi
20:56 < agliodbs> this is one of the people who's been helping me
20:56 < agliodbs> this is a great channel
20:56 < drm> agliodbs: akh is our hero
20:56 < drm> he helps everybody
20:56 < dmacks> akh: buildlocks now automatically clear themselves. Please enjoy and/or try to break it:)
20:56 < akh> Saw that--I'll inject while I try once again to make an EPS file that isn't pure white. :-(
20:57 < agliodbs> ach, have to run home
20:57 < agliodbs> later!
20:57 < drm> !lart RangerAway
20:57 * Melian DoSes RangerAway
20:58 < akh> What'd he do?
20:58 < dmacks> akh: If you have a chance could you update web doc for the fink.conf/fink manpage edits I made today? Not real urgent
20:58 < drm> 4 missing BuildDepends in 1 package, so far, RR... everyone requiring a long compile to detect... and who knows how many more???
20:59 < dmacks> Wot pkg?
20:59 < drm> kdeaddons3
20:59 < akh> dmacks: It'll be this weekend.
20:59 < dmacks> akh: Great thanks
20:59 < drm> not gonna commit until i find them all
21:00 < dmacks> Fink is a great stress-tester...chris01's svn broke msachs's build scripts and one of the Todai packages found a pretty weird hole in install-info upstream.
21:02 < akh> Not to mention discovering packages that XCode2.2 hates...
21:02 < drm> or vice versa
21:02 < dmacks> yeah
21:02 < akh> The chicken and the egg?
21:03 < drm> "i tried to hide from the packages that XCode2.2 hates, but they discovered me"
21:03 < akh> heh
21:03 < dmacks> heh
21:03 -!- rudy [n=rudy@ip70-160-39-33.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #fink
21:04 < pogma> hi
21:04 < drm> ok, back when y'all were babies, this grad school buddy of mine and I used to watch a trashy TV show every Friday night... it just became available on iTunes
21:04 < drm> gotta recommend it to y'all :)... "Knight Rider"... its probably rather dated :/
21:05 < drm> hi pogma
21:05 < pogma> hehe
21:05 * akh used to watch that regularly.
21:05 * dmacks loved KR as a kid.
21:05 * pogma watched it also
21:05 < pogma> once watched it in german
21:05 < dmacks> And Air Wolf ("Knight Rider in helicopter form")
21:05 < akh> With a non-talking vehicle, of course.
21:06 < drm> you can "gift" an episode of a TV show of iTMS... /me tries to decide whether to gift this to his old buddy
21:06 < dmacks> True akh. But instead had a geezer sidekick.
21:07 < akh> As opposed to the geezer "manager" or whatever.
21:08 < dmacks> Yeah. A mountain is hella cooler than a semi:)
21:08 < akh> (dang--261 files on my dist-upgrade. Hope my screensaver starts working again)
21:08 < drm> the semi was pretty cool... i mean, can you imagine actually driving into or out of a trailer like that?
21:09 < akh> Nope--I dinged up the front end of my wife's car backing out of the garage.
21:09 < dmacks> hehe
21:09 < akh> That wasn't moving. ;-)
21:10 < akh> Admittedly, you do have to make a 30 degree turn from that spot, and my car was parked a little too close to hers, but I'm still lame.
21:11 * drm spent 12 hours driving yesterday... would have liked a car that would've driven itself
21:12 < akh> If you're in Kansas you could just hit the cruise control and take a nap.
21:12 < drm> well, i was on cruise control for a good part of the drive, but there were some curves
21:12 < akh> That kind of ruins it, yes.
21:15 < dmacks> dang...I was just listening to Kansas earlier this evening.
21:15 < akh> Were they telling you how the theory of evolution is immoral?
21:15 < dmacks> heh
21:15 < drm> its only a theory, after all
21:17 < dmacks> Yeah, and life is so irriducibly complex. C'mon...don't y'all know anything about the second law of *mumble* and conservation of energy.
21:18 < akh> And ID does a _great_ job of making testable predictions. 9.9
21:18 < dmacks> "God did it". Proof: "God did it". There ya go
21:19 < akh> Heck, the Fink dep engine is approaching "irreducibly complex" and nobody argues that it was designed intelligently. :-P
21:19 < dmacks> hahahaha!
21:19 < drm> rofl
21:21 < akh> Somebody had to say it. :-)
21:22 < akh> Apropos intelligence--let's see if I've finally figured out how to make my plot not be drawn white on white...
21:22 < dmacks> Black-on-black?
21:23 < akh> I didn't set the paper color, so the background is guaranteed white.
21:23 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@59.92.132.149] has joined #fink
21:23 < drm> six missing BD's and counting...
21:24 < akh> Dang--I thought my "drawtiming" package was bad. (and it was, but I fixed it, and as a side effect made imagemagick-nox not depend on X11)
21:26 -!- shres [n=sshreyas@59.92.132.149] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
21:26 < dmacks> drm: Should the other *webmin* that Depends:webmin meet a similar fate?
21:27 < drm> well, sure... they can't be built now, can they
21:28 < akh> Yeah, yeah--bring logic into it. :-)
21:28 < dmacks> Gone.
21:31 < dmacks> akh: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/06/mirecki_treated_after_roadside_beating/?ku_news
21:32 < akh> Dang
21:32 -!- rudy [n=rudy@growl/rudy] has quit []
21:33 < akh> Guess I know where I _won't_ look for a faculty position.
21:34 < drm> seven
21:35 < akh> There must be some way to automate hunting for build depends.
21:36 < akh> (probably would have to have a gigantic lookup table)
21:36 -!- rudy [n=rudy@ip70-160-39-33.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #fink
21:37 < akh> Life would be easier if we just dispensed with that whole "let the users build from source" aspect of the project. ;-)
21:37 < dmacks> drm: Any thoughts about using the token OBSOLETE in Description for packages that are just upgrade bundles when package names change, and a 'fink cleanup --obsolete' that removes all such packages if possible?
21:39 < drm> well, if we're going to do it it should probably not just depend on parsing Description
21:39 < drm> should be a field of its own, perhaps
21:39 < dmacks> Gotta be in .deb
21:39 < drm> true
21:39 < drm> haven't we added stuff to .deb's? GCC maybe?
21:40 < dmacks> BDO. It's a mild pain.
21:40 < drm> so what about "BDO: OBSOLETE"?
21:40 < dmacks> We never got as far as actually implementing GCC:)
21:41 < drm> a bit weird, i admit, but could be handled with purely-fink changes
21:41 < dmacks> It's gonna hafta interact with BDO anyway, so you could be onto something there.
21:41 < dmacks> OTOH, Description makes it visible to the user.
21:42 < drm> actually, what we *should* do is replace the .deb BDO field with a .deb "Fink" field, whose values at present would be "BDO: true" "BDO: fasle" or "OBSOLETE"
21:42 < dmacks> Nah, too easy and flexible:)
21:42 < drm> but could be expanded to meet future needs
21:43 < dmacks> Feel free to slap some comments on the Wiki page I started for this idea
21:54 < dmacks> Is Chris Leishman still active?
21:55 * akh -> bed
21:55 -!- akh [n=akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit []
22:00 -!- drm [n=drm@tux4.math.duke.edu] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:14 -!- aglio2 [n=josh@70.132.9.89] has joined #fink
22:15 < aglio2> hmmm ... anyone know what a geometry statement for evilwm looks like?
22:16 < aglio2> ach
22:16 < aglio2> launching xdarwin killed my dock
22:21 < aglio2> hmmm ... not working
22:21 < aglio2> anybody know what I need in my xinitrc for evilwm?
22:23 < dmacks> Melian: xinitrc
22:23 < Melian> xinitrc is, like, http://www.finkproject.org/doc/x11/run-xfree86.php#xinitrc
22:23 < dmacks> Melian: thanks
22:23 < Melian> dmacks: no worries
22:23 < dmacks> It's the same as for any wm I assume aglio2.
22:24 < aglio2> dmacks: well, not the same as KDE
22:24 < aglio2> but I think I figured it out
22:25 < aglio2> except that kate starts two windows, oddly
22:26 < aglio2> but is otherwise OK
22:26 < aglio2> and very fast! yay!
22:26 < dmacks> cool!
22:28 < aglio2> except ....
22:28 < aglio2> when I quit kate, I couldn't get focus on any of the terminal windows :-(
22:32 < aglio2> hmmm .... I think evilwm may not be for me
22:32 < aglio2> there's no way to resize windows
22:32 < dmacks> That's pretty evil-sounding.
22:33 < aglio2> well, evilwm depends on the 2nd mouse button :-(
22:34 < aglio2> and/or the ALT key
22:34 < aglio2> and doesn't accept the apple key as a substiture
22:34 < dmacks> Apple X11 has emulation...I thought xorg did also, but dunno.
22:34 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"]
22:35 < aglio2> if so, I don't know how to turn it on
22:37 < aglio2> feh
22:38 < aglio2> is there a lightweiight wm I can use?
22:39 < RangerAway> quartz-wm? :)
22:42 < aglio2> I was told earlier that that only works with Apple x11
22:43 < RangerAway> nope, works with apple x11 or newer
22:43 < RangerAway> xorg is newer
22:43 < aglio2> oh, ok
22:43 < RangerAway> you've just gotta (re) install it
22:43 < aglio2> ok
22:44 -!- gopherd [i=UNKNOWN@milwwi12-vlan514-a10.milwwi.tds.net] has joined #fink
22:44 < aglio2> hmmm ... not looking good:
22:44 < aglio2> Can't set build lock for applex11tools (1.0-2)
22:44 < dmacks> !paste
22:45 < Melian> lisppaste is a bot that lets you post large chunks of text without flooding the channel. Use it at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink
22:45 < aglio2> dmacks: did you want to see more? I was just pasting that one line
22:45 < dmacks> Personally I don't care. But I'm pretty sure that that is just a single-line summary of a detailed error message:)
22:46 < aglio2> yah, ok
22:47 < aglio2> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/l0CDpf84.html
22:47 -!- newmanbe_ [n=newmanbe@tor/session/x-cb4ac0cb363dc1ba] has joined #fink
22:48 < dmacks> You can read exactly what fink thinks is happening and what you can do about it in that message, no?
22:48 < aglio2> sort of
22:48 < aglio2> it looks like it's trying to re-install apple x11?
22:49 < dmacks> applex11tools, not apple x11.
22:49 < aglio2> aha
22:49 < aglio2> hmmm
22:49 < dmacks> Is there another fink process currently running?
22:50 < aglio2> this message caused me to abort
22:50 < aglio2> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/YGWV2329.html
22:50 < dmacks> Sounds like you're in the "previous build prcess crashed" case then.
22:51 < aglio2> right
22:51 < aglio2> I deliberately aborted when I got that message
22:51 < dmacks> So what should you do next?
22:51 < aglio2> not sure
22:51 < aglio2> I don't have install CDs
22:52 < dmacks> Then you cannot use applex11tools or quartz-wm
22:52 < aglio2> and, frankly, I don't care what WM I use
22:52 < aglio2> evilwm would be fine if it worked with the apple 1-button touchpad
22:53 < aglio2> dmacks: do they usually give people install CDs? None came with this ibook
22:53 < dmacks> Was X11 installed, or did you install it yourself? Do you have X11User.dmg on your hard drive?
22:54 < aglio2> apple x11 was installed
22:54 < dmacks> Search your hard drive for X11User.dmg.
22:54 * newmanbe_ wacks Apple.
22:55 < aglio2> nothing from spotlight
22:55 < aglio2> do I need to use find?
22:55 * dmacks out of time here.
22:55 < aglio2> darn
22:55 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
22:56 < RangerAway> aglio2: if you don't find it in spotlight, it's not there
22:56 < RangerAway> you need the X11 installer package from your install disks
22:56 < RangerAway> if you don't have it, you'll have to try another WM
22:56 < RangerAway> just browse around http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/section.php/x11-wm until you see something interesting :)
22:58 < aglio2> RangerAway: like I said, the ibook didn't come with install disks. Do they usually?
23:01 < RangerAway> if you buy it new, I thought so, yes
23:01 < RangerAway> although sometimes it's just a restore disk
23:01 < aglio2> nope, none in the box
23:01 < RangerAway> in which case you usually have some package in Applications or Documents or something that has the optiona linstall stuff
23:02 < RangerAway> then contact apple and tell them you didn't get one in your box :P
23:02 < aglio2> probably better to just find out how to configure Xorg
23:02 < aglio2> and/or evilwm
23:02 < aglio2> so that I can emulate a 2nd button
23:02 < aglio2> and/or an alt key
23:07 < aglio2> hmmm ... google isn't being much help
23:07 -!- gopherd [i=UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/gopherd] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:08 -!- gopherd [i=UNKNOWN@milwwi12-vlan514-a10.milwwi.tds.net] has joined #fink
23:08 < aglio2> Xdarwin is giving me emulation options, but they don't seem to work
23:40 -!- Murr [n=neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:45 -!- aglio2 [n=josh@70.132.9.89] has quit []
23:57 -!- reppep [n=pepper@www.reppep.com] has joined #fink
--- Log closed Wed Dec 07 00:00:14 2005