It's number pass time bro. Pretty much every single ability in game "does more damage" in that build :P

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

What difference does that make? The end result will always be the same. Apart from new spells, do people really give a damn about what they gain when they level, other than access to a new set of quests and instances?

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

I'm really quite happy that the T16 4pc Ret bonus is now being listed as one of the WoD perks. From a fun perspective I'm pretty fond of that particular effect and was really going to miss it when new gear broke the bonus.

Worldie wrote:If I understood right several of other perks have been baselined.

Most of the flat damage increase perks were baselined (Consecration somehow missed that cut, likely because they haven't thought of anything else to give us), and some overpowered perks were outright removed.

Klaudandus wrote:Did they took our AS hitting 2 more targets? I remember people saying here we didn't need holy wrath to be fixed because AS was gonna be our hit-all burst ability.

Empowered Avenger's Shield is still in there.

Holy Wrath hits like a truck now, with the revamped Sanctified Wrath talent, especially when taking advantage of the Final Wrath glyph. Honestly I'd prefer to see some kind of reset proc to the cooldown of Holy Wrath, if it's viewed as such an iconic ability. Easy enough to tie it to CS/HotR, like Grand Crusader used to be. Just feels off with having a longer cooldown and not having some kind of reset (Avenger's Shield, Exorcism, etc.). That's my own opinion, of course.

Klaudandus wrote:Did they took our AS hitting 2 more targets? I remember people saying here we didn't need holy wrath to be fixed because AS was gonna be our hit-all burst ability.

Empowered Avenger's Shield is still in there.

Holy Wrath hits like a truck now, with the revamped Sanctified Wrath talent, especially when taking advantage of the Final Wrath glyph. Honestly I'd prefer to see some kind of reset proc to the cooldown of Holy Wrath, if it's viewed as such an iconic ability. Easy enough to tie it to CS/HotR, like Grand Crusader used to be. Just feels off with having a longer cooldown and not having some kind of reset (Avenger's Shield, Exorcism, etc.). That's my own opinion, of course.

I do remember Theck mentioning on twitter that he would rather see Holy Wrath with its old cd and lower damage (without the meteor effect) than doing more damage and longer cd.

Klaudandus wrote:Did they took our AS hitting 2 more targets? I remember people saying here we didn't need holy wrath to be fixed because AS was gonna be our hit-all burst ability.

Empowered Avenger's Shield is still in there.

Holy Wrath hits like a truck now, with the revamped Sanctified Wrath talent, especially when taking advantage of the Final Wrath glyph. Honestly I'd prefer to see some kind of reset proc to the cooldown of Holy Wrath, if it's viewed as such an iconic ability. Easy enough to tie it to CS/HotR, like Grand Crusader used to be. Just feels off with having a longer cooldown and not having some kind of reset (Avenger's Shield, Exorcism, etc.). That's my own opinion, of course.

I do remember Theck mentioning on twitter that he would rather see Holy Wrath with its old cd and lower damage (without the meteor effect) than doing more damage and longer cd.

He's not the only sending Celestalon tweets about how that'd be better :)

Nooska wrote:Do 'we' have a deadtime issue with it on the longer cd, or "just" an aoe issue?

I dunno, you have 10 seconds CD with 50% haste, and that isn't too bad, tbh.

The trouble is balancing it for its actual task. Holy Wrath exists to give us snap aggro on multiple targets. The trouble is how it becomes less and less effective the more targets it hits. You can keep buffing its damage (which is what Blizzard is doing), but then it'll become totally ridiculous for single-target fights (and it has).

Hold on, I thought our "snap aoe aggro" was 5 target AS, and that Holy Wrath is just "added oomphf"

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

That's cause content is built so that when you need snap threat it's usually max 3-4 targets that spawn close to each other.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

Klaudandus wrote:i know, seen that, done that. seems to be falling on deaf ears at the moment though.

As they stated numerous times in the Fury thread, the developers don't really feel keen on enlightening us to their design ideas until they drop them in our laps, regardless of how good (or batshit insane) they may be. While simply axing the meteor component would likely do a better job of making Holy Wrath suck less than the current Live version, their current design idea does not align with that simple solution.

That being said; if they're going to insist on this "higher damage/longer cooldown" model, improvement ideas which compliment the model may be received better than simply saying it sucks. No matter how one looks at it, a longer cooldown is going to introduce additional gaps; some way of resetting the cooldown alleviates that somewhat.

Seems like we go through this dance every xpac - the Devs create a priority that in practice leaves gaps, then the Paladin community bitches about the gaps and the Devs do some tweaks to fill the gaps.

I've toyed with a DK and it seems to me there are not only gaps, but ones such that if you press anything available you'll screw up your resource management for an entire cycle.

I like the regular rotation - it'll probably be the determining factor to my re-subscription for Draenor. I have absolutely no interest in having to juggle basic abilities while tanking.

For me, tanking is about using our extra abilities at the appropriate time. I think most of us here have some recollection about a time when our OT died and we had to do this and that in a precise way to manage our cooldowns sufficiently to make it through the fight by the skin of our teeth. I doubt anyone here has a particularly joyous recollection of having executed an intricate attack rotation so as to achieve the statistical maximum HP generation.

The fun of the game is to figure out how to defeat a boss when you have X resources and the boss appears to require X + N resources to defeat, so you have to find new and clever ways to balance your resources and those of your OT, healers, and even DPS to achieve the extra N resources, with just enough randomness to keep it interesting once you've worked out the resource management.