Theaetetus:[30.media.tumblr.com image 274x377]See how Wonder Woman's shoulders are back, while she's thrusting her chest forward, while rotating almost 180 degrees? Not even a contortionist can do that one:[media.tumblr.com image 400x263]

Did you flunk geometry? Her torso is rotated about 45 degrees and her head a little more than that for a total slightly over 90.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, but women have access to a wealth of literature that sexualizes men. When you look deep into these (admittedly a trifle shallow) expressions, I urge you to think about romance novels in which the men were written by a man instead of a woman.

Is it as pervasive? Does it shape society? No, of course not -- there really is some lingering objectification of women in places it doesn't really belong. But reaching deep into targeted media looking for reasons to take offense? Both genders are guilty of having some idealized vision of the other sex, and writing it into media. That's not the problem you want to solve, and you're merely mischaracterizing yourselves by pursuing it.

Dokushin:I'm not trying to be insensitive, but women have access to a wealth of literature that sexualizes men. When you look deep into these (admittedly a trifle shallow) expressions, I urge you to think about romance novels in which the men were written by a man instead of a woman.

Is it as pervasive? Does it shape society? No, of course not -- there really is some lingering objectification of women in places it doesn't really belong. But reaching deep into targeted media looking for reasons to take offense? Both genders are guilty of having some idealized vision of the other sex, and writing it into media. That's not the problem you want to solve, and you're merely mischaracterizing yourselves by pursuing it.

Too many people claim that that sexualization doesn't actually exist. Its pervasiveness, and the fact that it happens in romance novels as well as comics, isn't something that's going to change, but it needs to be acknowledged as being there or people who don't have good parents who point out the difference between fantasy and reality will think that this is the way the world is and should be. And that's part of why I've had to deal with jerkasses on the street making shiatty aggressive come-ons AND why aging moms made catcalls at the actors from twilight. Neither one is appropriate and the only way to end that is if people can acknowledge that it's not the way reality is or should be.

It's fine for comics to be fantasy. I like a lot of fantasies myself, including some comics (Strangers in Paradise, for instance, and Empowered if you want to get sexier) but everyone needs to be able to say that it's an awesome fantasy and not the way the world just is.

In terms of genre fiction, romance is either the 800 or 600 pound gorilla in the room (I forget where mysteries/thrillers rank). Considering how the comic book industry is ailing right now, I would not be surprised if romances are much more widely read than comic books.

Here's something interesting from a writing book I read once (this touches on how media marketed to men or women objectifies the opposite sex, and it's worth contemplating): "This means that he [the male protagonist] must personify the 'five Ss': single, sexy, sweet, smart, solvent (if not actually rich) . . ."

In terms of genre fiction, romance is either the 800 or 600 pound gorilla in the room (I forget where mysteries/thrillers rank). Considering how the comic book industry is ailing right now, I would not be surprised if romances are much more widely read than comic books.

Here's something interesting from a writing book I read once (this touches on how media marketed to men or women objectifies the opposite sex, and it's worth contemplating): "This means that he [the male protagonist] must personify the 'five Ss': single, sexy, sweet, smart, solvent (if not actually rich) . . ."

As noted above, that's "false equivalence," because its okay when women do it.

/I don't really care, I am capable of separating fantasy and reality. So are most men and women. You're not going to convince the ones that can't.

All of these "switch men for women's poses" make the men look feminized apart from the poses. So it changes too many variables. If you're complaining about the costume, just switch the costume. You can't switch the pose AND the costume and complain it's all about the pose.

Or they draw them in a stupid cartoony fashion that makes them look idiotic, and then say "look what changing the pose does omg!"

...any more pictures from whatever that's from, preferably ones that show more of him?

Liefeld never shows feet.

Damn.

You know what this thread needs? Namor.

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Are you saying those pictures were drawn for the benefit of women? I'll think you'll find those pictures were fantasies drawn for men. They want to think of themselves as (and occasionally in or under) that. That is the ideal man, according to other men. I think you'll find very few women who think those pictures are hot or sexy.

Whereas I'm sure you'll find a lot of women who think Gambit (X-Men) is sexy because of his personality and attitude, nothing to do with his "looks".

if_i_really_have_to:Are you saying those pictures were drawn for the benefit of women? I'll think you'll find those pictures were fantasies drawn for men. They want to think of themselves as (and occasionally in or under) that. That is the ideal man, according to other men. I think you'll find very few women who think those pictures are hot or sexy.

Swing and miss.

First, the typical fallacy of saying that it's also a male fantasy, because y'know, oppression!Second, the fact that most men don't think of Namor as a silly looking dude in a speedo, or worse, this:

Which is clearly designed to be a male fantasy because secretly we all dream of....okay, what the fark are you even saying? That's such a canned cliched social justice statement it just hurts to read...

It's fine for comics to be fantasy. I like a lot of fantasies myself, including some comics (Strangers in Paradise, for instance, and Empowered if you want to get sexier) but everyone needs to be able to say that it's an awesome fantasy and not the way the world just is.

Are there lots of people who think that books full of men who can fly, bend steel with their bare hands, see through walls and shrug off bullets represent "the way the world just is?"

'Cuz speaking personally, I understood as a child that no one dresses up like a bat to fight crime... and that no one looked like Wonder Woman in real life.

It's fine for comics to be fantasy. I like a lot of fantasies myself, including some comics (Strangers in Paradise, for instance, and Empowered if you want to get sexier) but everyone needs to be able to say that it's an awesome fantasy and not the way the world just is.

Are there lots of people who think that books full of men who can fly, bend steel with their bare hands, see through walls and shrug off bullets represent "the way the world just is?"

'Cuz speaking personally, I understood as a child that no one dresses up like a bat to fight crime... and that no one looked like Wonder Woman in real life.

and because you recognized those were fantasies, did you also recognize the interpersonal dynamics as fantasies? The postures? The ethnic make-up of the hordes of bystanders? You were an amazingly sophisticated child then, because there are a fair number of websites where people will argue that the comics get those just fine.

Ook:and because you recognized those were fantasies, did you also recognize the interpersonal dynamics as fantasies? The postures? The ethnic make-up of the hordes of bystanders? You were an amazingly sophisticated child then, because there are a fair number of websites where people will argue that the comics get those just fine.

Clearly superhero comics, an phenomenon barely 80 years old, is the cause of those problems that have existed since thousands of years ago.

penthesilea:browntimmy: I really don't buy that most women would find that new picture hotter.

Spend some time on tumblr. So many drawings/photos of sensitive, bendy, & beautiful guys.

I'm sure some women are into that. But just a few hours ago on a talk show I was watching they showed an underwear ad with David Beckam that made all the women in the audience swooon, and he had a very serious, tough "bad-boy" look on his face. That "improved" batman comic above looks more like the kind of guy women would want to take shopping with them.

natazha:Theaetetus: [30.media.tumblr.com image 274x377]See how Wonder Woman's shoulders are back, while she's thrusting her chest forward, while rotating almost 180 degrees? Not even a contortionist can do that one:[media.tumblr.com image 400x263]

Did you flunk geometry? Her torso is rotated about 45 degrees and her head a little more than that for a total slightly over 90.

Are you saying those pictures were drawn for the benefit of women? I'll think you'll find those pictures were fantasies drawn for men. They want to think of themselves as (and occasionally in or under) that. That is the ideal man, according to other men. I think you'll find very few women who think those pictures are hot or sexy.

Whereas I'm sure you'll find a lot of women who think Gambit (X-Men) is sexy because of his personality and attitude, nothing to do with his "looks".

Yes, sorry to repeat myself, but there is a response to the claim that Namor is drawn as "beefcake" for female readers.

ciberido:natazha: Theaetetus: [30.media.tumblr.com image 274x377]See how Wonder Woman's shoulders are back, while she's thrusting her chest forward, while rotating almost 180 degrees? Not even a contortionist can do that one:[media.tumblr.com image 400x263]

Did you flunk geometry? Her torso is rotated about 45 degrees and her head a little more than that for a total slightly over 90.

Um, no. Butt-to-face is almost 180 degrees. Did you fail at counting?

Now now, you're both wrong. It's 130ish. If that contortionist was standing it'd be pretty close. In fact, you can tell he's got more torso twist than her because his left arm has crossed his ass and hers hasn't. It's the spine arching combined with the rotation that makes it horrific. Not to mention that it's a ridiculous looking pose to start with.

ciberido:if_i_really_have_to: Keizer_Ghidorah: You know what this thread needs? Namor.

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Are you saying those pictures were drawn for the benefit of women? I'll think you'll find those pictures were fantasies drawn for men. They want to think of themselves as (and occasionally in or under) that. That is the ideal man, according to other men. I think you'll find very few women who think those pictures are hot or sexy.

Whereas I'm sure you'll find a lot of women who think Gambit (X-Men) is sexy because of his personality and attitude, nothing to do with his "looks".

Yes, sorry to repeat myself, but there is a response to the claim that Namor is drawn as "beefcake" for female readers.

rocky_howard:sp86: Then you're either a.) Willfully ignorant or b.) dumb as fark.

Judging by some of the threads I've seen today I'm thinking more the latter, but it might actually be a combination.

Awww, as if what you think is important to anyone. Keep it up with the insults though, really suits you :O)

Nobody cares what lurkers think, why the hell would I think that? There you go supposing for other people again, with no clue of what's really going on. When you build your rhetoric on that sort of dishonesty it's no wonder you object to people calling a dumb fark a dumb fark.