May 21, "starting in the Pacific Rim at around the 6 p.m. local time hour, in each time zone, there will be a great earthquake,". The true Christian believers will be "raptured": They'll fly upward to heaven.

"and on top of all that, there's no more salvation at that point. 153 days later that the entire universe and planet Earth will be destroyed."

"I no longer think about 401(k)s and retirement," he says. "I'm just a lot less stressed, and in a way I'm more carefree."

Brown is married with several young children, and none of them shares his beliefs. It's caused a rift with his wife  but he says that, too, was predicted in the Bible.

But it appears that many became believers in 2009 after turning on Family Radio, a Christian network. Camping's predictions have inspired other groups to rally behind the May 21 date. People have quit their jobs and left their families to get the message out.

"Knowing the date of the end of the world changes all your future plans," says Adrienne Martinez.

She thought she'd go to medical school, until she began tuning in to Family Radio. She and her husband decided they wanted to spend their remaining time with their infant daughter.

"Why are we going to work for more money? "

"We budgeted everything so that, on May 21, we won't have anything left," Adrienne adds.

I've asked a dozen of Camping's followers the same question. Everyone said even entertaining the possibility that May 21 would come and go without event is an offense to God. They all hope they'll be raptured.

"If I'm here on May 22, and I wake up, I'm going to be in hell," says Brown

I forgot to mention, apparently these people missed the rapture. It seems they forgot to account for all the days added and removed from the calendar over the years. Using their calculations but also adding in these days, it should have been April 1.

My point is that the fruit of sola scriptura is confusion and division.

As I noted above--the RCC is WORSE, all things considered, at fostering confusion and division. Your point is a straw dog of grossly hypocritical proportions and nature.

I haven't read but bits of the Catechism, yet. Plus the portions posted hereon. HOWEVER, that's more than sufficient to be slapped in the face by the horrific degrees, amounts, intensities of confusion and division inherent in the founding primary documents. Add in the next tier of official documents and it only gets worse.

One of the most infuriatingly exasperating aspects of trying to begin to commence to start to attempt an initial preface of an intelligent exchange with RC's hereon is the relentless fact that most are like a hyper-active ADD 2 year old little boy--all over the water front at great erratic speed.

DAFFYNITIONARY is not hyperbole on my part. It's an accurate description of the farcical inconsistent, momentary, specialized confusing-to-the-max RCC word meanings that sometimes seem to change by the hour.

Whether it's eschatology, Mary, Scripture or history--hang around the Vatican School of Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling enough seconds and the word meanings and "facts" will change dramatically--often 180 degrees--at least 90 degrees.

Y'all are far worse than Proddys on those scores. AT least with a Proddy group, one can usually expect the basics to be rather unchangeable in interpretation and practice.

One of the saddest paradoxes with regard to the RCC--is the divisiveness and confusion that it chronically sets up in a huge percentage of RCC families.

Typically, all my growing up and certainly in my early adult years and all my years of counseling--I'd guesstimate 80-95% of the RC's who were estranged from the RCC and from God blamed the outrageous and relentlessly divisive and confusing hypocrisies on the part of their parochial school teachers; the priests; the hierarchy and/or their nominally professing parents.

No wonder only 20-30% of self described RC's are actually anything close to even moderately faithfully practicing RC's.

Certainly Proddys have a similar problem. However, in my experience, the worst group on such scores by far are the RC's.

It is telling to see the PC word "diversity" describing it.

More brazen hypocrisy. You use the word division. Perhaps you fail to notice the kinship between the two words. Just because the globalist MSM REGRESSIVES want to hijack/steal a word doesn't mean I have to agree to the phenomenon. I could just as easily said outrageous variety.

And also to characterize The Church as "a large group of people", which ignores the unique nature and claims attached to it - no matter what the faith tradition is.

Y'all have helped me to see in blazing fiery terms the fact that the RCC is anything BUT a bona fide Christian Church. In a lot of respects, even calling the whole edifice a group is too charitable.

It's an outrageously destructive-to-the Gospel, to families and to individuals and Christianity cult.

It's a horrific, increasingly lock-step globalist political machine.

It's a pile of magicsterical power mongering political potentates lording it over one another and the sheeple at great VERY DESTRUCTIVE cost to personal spirituality and relationship with God.

It's an amazingly successful training organization for homosexuals in the arts of seduction and abuse of young men and boys.

It's an outrageously successful training institution in the arts and seductions of grossly extreme idolatries and blasphemies of the worst sort.

It's an impressively successful extortion racket pressuring the poor to surrender at their most vulnerable times--embarrassingly awful percentages of their meager income on pain of eternal consequences to get their relatives ostensibly prayed out of UnBiblical purgatory.

It's an incredibly successful institution at training RELIGIOUS PROFESSIONALS in the fine arts of political arrogance, prancing, parading and pontificating and prissing about in a relentless overlording dance on the backs, minds and hearts of the sheeple in the pews. Thankfully, there are many exceptions to that amongst many priests. Yet, the truth of those outrages is extremely pervasive throughout the organization. Training in amplifications of IN-GROUP prissy pride is not a fruit of Holy Spirit.

I could go on, on such scores. I'll stop with those examples.

Let's stay on topic here - Harold Camping derives a date of the Rapture from his own personal interpretation of Holy Scripture.

Other than from unholy !!!TRADITIONS!!! of man where does the RCC get so much divisive, destructive, contradictory hypocritical stuff? Oh, right--from hell.

What do you do with your "crazy uncle" who refuses to stay locked up in the attic?

Oh, Love him anyway. Try to keep him safe and involved in life and the family as much as is workable. Neutralize his destructiveness and help him feel cared for.

She thought she'd go to medical school, until she began tuning in to Family Radio. She and her husband decided they wanted to spend their remaining time with their infant daughter. "Why are we going to work for more money? " "We budgeted everything so that, on May 21, we won't have anything left," Adrienne adds.

What a moron.

106
posted on 05/08/2011 9:54:22 AM PDT
by metmom
(Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)

“Well start with the founder of Australias Christian Revival Crusade - Leo Harris who confidently predicted that 1979 will be the date for the return of Christ. This probably happened for those who actually died in 1979 but for the rest of the world  it was a failed prediction. Afterwards some members of his movement predicted that the actual time would be the year 2000 and not 1979. The Worldwide Church of God (founded in 1934 by Herbert W Armstrong) predicted that 1972 would be the year of the Rapture or the “Great Tribulation” followed by the return of Jesus sometime in 1978. In 1955 Herbert predicted that all Americans “will be totally consumed and carried away captive to other nations as slaves within 20 years.

The 450 member True Light Church of Christ of North and South Carolina predicted the end of the world to take place in 1970. Another group called The Children of God: predicted catastrophe in early 1974 by the then rapidly approaching comet named Kohoutec. Another religious cult called The Great White Brotherhood, located in Kiev, Russia, took over the citys St Sofia Cathedral preparing for the end of the world on November 14 1993 resulting in over 600 of their members being arrested for trespassing and citing a riot. Various writers in the early 19th and 20th centuries set precise dates for end time events  which also has come and gone without major incidents. Writers from the Pentecostal movement predicted precise dates as well. A pamphlet created in 1974 by Leon Bates titled Tribulation Map included a picture of a hypothetical future newspaper reporting the “rapture” which is a religious event whereby Christians will be secretly snatched off the Earth to meet Jesus in the sky. This was to take place on February 8 1996.” SNIP

"I thought you were aware that weve traced our dispy perspective back to the early church era ."

So have I.

Origins of Millennial Heresy

The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.

"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."

As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:

"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."

This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was "something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels." Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.

Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher. Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John, [Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28).

Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."

"Cerinthus required his followers to worship the supreme God.... He promised them a resurrection of their bodies, which would be succeeded by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ.... For Cerinthus supposed that Christ would hereafter return . . . and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine." (Mosheim's Eccl. Hist., Page 50)

"Cerinthus required his followers to retain part of the Mosaical law, but to regulate their lives by the example of Christ: and taught that after the resurrection Christ would reign upon earth, with his faithful disciples, a thousand years, which would be spent in the highest sensual indulgences. This mixture of Judaism and Oriental philosophy was calculated to make many converts, and this sect soon became very numerous. They admitted a part of St. Matthew's Gospel but rejected the rest, and held the epistles of St. Paul in great abhorrence." (Gregory and Ruter's Church History., Page 30)

"Even though the floods of the nations and the vain superstitions of heretics should revolt against their true faith, they are overcome, and shall be dissolved as the foam, because Christ is the rock by which, and on which, the church is founded. And thus it is overcome by no [16] traces of maddened men. Therefore they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years; who think, that is to say, with the heretic Cerinthus. For the kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints." (From a commentary on the Apocalypse, by Victorinus, Ante-Nicene Fathers)

Thank God for the united testimony of history. Observe how closely the modern Millennium teachers cling to the doctrines of their founder. Cerinthus taught that "Christ will have an earthly kingdom." "After the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth." "The resurrection would be followed by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ." " That Christ would hereafter return, and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine." The only difference is that his modern followers have dropped the idea of sensuality. But how did the early church regard the doctrine of Cerinthus? The apostle John called Cerinthus "that enemy of the truth." They taught that "they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years."

What was the doctrine of the early church according to history? "Christ is the rock on which, and by which the church is founded." "The kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints." "It was the universal feeling among primitive Christians that they were living in the last period of the world's history." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. VIII.. Page 534). The reason they believed this was because the New Testament was their faith, and this is the doctrine of the New Testament throughout. No wonder Cerinthus and his followers "rejected part of St. Matthew's Gospel, and held the epistles of Paul in great abhorrence." Just so do modern Millennium teachers dwell very little in the plain Gospels and Epistles to prove their doctrines, but speculate in prophecy and revelation.

Having seen that Cerinthus and his false doctrine were rejected by God's church we will now come to its next chief advocate, Papias, who lived in the first half of the second century. Eusebius, under the heading "The Writings of Papias," says of him:

"The same historian also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise some strange parables of our Lord, and of his doctrine, and some other matters rather too fabulous. In these he says there would be a certain Millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., Book m, Chap. 39, Page 115).

Historians generally tell us that Papias was a very zealous advocate of this imaginary reign of Christ on earth. "The first distinguished opponent of this doctrine was Origen, who attacked it with great earnestness and ingenuity, and seems, in spite of some opposition to have thrown it into general discredit." (Wadington's History, Page 56).

"This obscure doctrine was probably known to but very few except the Fathers of the church, and is very sparingly mentioned by them during the first two centuries; and there is reason to believe that it scarcely attained much notoriety even among the learned Christians, until it was made a matter of controversy by Origen, and then rejected by the great majority. In fact we find Origen himself asserting that it was confined to those of the simpler sort."(Wadington's History, Page 56).

Next among the advocates of this doctrine was Nepos, a bishop in Egypt. He advocated the doctrine about A. D. 255. We here insert the following from Eusebius's History, Book VII, Chapter 23, under the heading "Nepos, and His Schism."

"He taught that the promises given to holy men in the scriptures should be understood more as the Jews understood them, and supposed that there would be a certain Millennium of sensual luxury on this earth: thinking, therefore, that he could establish his own opinion by the Revelation of John . . . He (Nepos) asserts that there will be an earthly reign of Christ." "Though Millennialism had been suppressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects." (Dr. Schaff's History, Page 299).

"Nowhere in the discourses of Jesus is there a hint of a limited duration of the Messianic kingdom. The apostolic epistles are equally free from any trace of Chiliasm."(Encyclopedia Brittanica--Articles on Millennium).

To sum up the uniform voice of history, the theory of a literal kingdom and reign on the earth was gathered from Jewish fabulous "apocalypse," "unwritten tradition," "carnal misapprehensions," "pretended visions," "suppositions," and "superstitious imaginations."

Its advocates were said to be "very limited in their understanding," and "of the simple sort." Millennialism had the worst heretic in the first century for its founder, and its chief advocates thereafter were rejected by the early church.

From time to time it was revived by "heretical sects."

The vain worldly expectation that the Messiah would establish a literal kingdom caused the Jews to reject him, and his spiritual kingdom. They only wanted an earthly kingdom; hence rejected and crucified the Son of God. As soon as the church began to apostatize, and lost the glory of his spiritual kingdom, vain ambitions awakened the old Jewish desire for a literal kingdom.

And so it has come to pass that we have at this time of dead formality a multitude of men teaching the same abominable lie and false hope which crucified Christ nearly nineteen hundred years ago; namely, a literal kingdom of Christ.

Justin Martyr (A.D.150) CHAP. XI.--WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.:"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. Forif we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid."(First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)

Epiphanes (315-403):"There is indeed a millennium mentioned by St.John; but the most, and those pious men, look upon those words as true indeed, but to be taken in a spiritual sense." (Heresies, 77:26.)

Robert G. Clouse:"At the Council of Ephesus in 431, belief in the millennium was condemned as superstitious." (Clouse, The Meaning of the Millennium, p. 9.) J.A.W. Neander (1837): "Among the Jews the representation was growing that the messiah would reign 1000 years upon the earth. Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity. " (History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. I, pg. 248)

Richard Erdoes:"On the last day of the year 999, according to an ancient chronicle, the old basilica of St. Peter's at Rome was thronged with a mass of weeping and trembling worshippers awaiting the end of the world. This was the dreaded eve of the millennium, the Day of Wrath when the earth would dissolve into ashes. Many of those present had fiven away all of their possessions to the poor - lands, homes, and household goods - in order to assure for themselves forgiveness for their trespasses at the Last Judgment and a good place in heaven near the footstool of the Almighty. Many poor sinners - and who among them was not without sin? had entered the church in sackcloth and ashes, having already spent weeks and months doing penance and mortifying the flesh ... the last day of the year 999 and the first day of the year 1000 had come and gone. Yet still the earth stood still and people still lived." (A.D.2000: Living on the Brink of Apocalypse, 1,194.)

Joseph Hall (1574-1656):"The main grounde of all their Heterodoxie in this point, is that they put a meerly-literall construction upon the prophesies and promies of Scripture which the Holy Ghost intended onely to be spiritually understood..." (Anonymously published The Revelation Unrevealed concerning the Thousand-Yeares Reigne of the Saints with Christ upon Earth (1650)

Robert Baillie (1645): "AMONG all the Sparkles of new light wherewith our Brethren do entertain their own and the peoples fancy, there is none more pleasant than that of the thousand years; a conceit of the most Ancient and gross Heretic Cerinthus, a little purged by Papias, and by him transmitted to some of the Greek and Latin Fathers, but quickly declared, both by the Greek and Latin Church to be a great errour, if not an heresy. Since the days of Augustine unto our time, it went under no other notion, and was embraced by no Christian we hear of, till some of the Anabaptists did draw it out of its grave"(Source: A Dissuasive From the Errors of the Time - The thousand years of Christ his visible Reign upon earth, is against Scripture)

Christianity Today:"In City of God, Augustine (354-430) viewed the thousand years of Revelation 20 not as some special future time but "the period beginning with Christ's first coming," that is, the age of the Christian church. Throughout this age, the saints reign with Christ­not in the fullness of the coming kingdom prepared for those blessed by God the Father, but "in some other and far inferior way." This position, often called "amillennial," became the view of most Christians in the West, including the Reformers, for almost 1,500 years."

Lorraine Boettner (1957):"So dependent is Premillennialism of the first 10 verses in Revelation 20, which it takes literally and then relies primarily on Old Testament kingdom prophecies for proof, that had it not been for this misinterpretation, the system as such probably never would have arisen." (The Millennium, rev. ed, Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, [1957] 1984, p. 11)

"We call attention also to the completely disproportionate emphasis that the premillennial system places on the Book of Revelation. For according to that interpretation chapters 4 through 19, a total of 16 chapters, are used to describe the comparatively short seven year Tribulation, while only six verses in chapter 20 are used to describe the glorious one thousand year reign of Christ upon the earth, with all the great and mighty events that undoubtedly would happen during that time. Such a method of interpretation is absurd on the face of it. The order should at least be reversed." (The Millennium, rev. ed, Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, [1957] 1984, p. 202)

James M. Efird (1989):"If one examines the texts carefully, however, it becomes rather obvious that John is not talking about the earth but is describing a scene in heaven. The martyrs are in heaven here and in every other place in Revelation (cf. 6:9-10). These martyrs are reigning with Christ in heaven, not for one thousand literal years but completely, totally." (Revelation for Today: An Apocalyptic Approach, Nashville, TN: Abingdon Press, 1989, p. 115)

David Chilton (1985):"One of the antichrists who afflicted the early church was Cerinthus, the leader of a first-century Judaistic cult. Regarded by the Church Fathers as "the Arch-heretic," and identified as one of the "false apostles" who opposed Paul, Cerinthus was a Jew who joined the Church and began drawing Christians away from the orthodox faith. He taught that a lesser deity, and not the true God, had created the world (holding, with the Gnostics, that God was much too "spiritual" to be concerned with material reality). Logically, this meant also a denial of the Incarnation, since God would not take to Himself a physical body and truly human personality. And Cerinthus was consistent: he declared that Jesus had merely been an ordinary man, not born of a virgin; that "the Christ" (a heavenly spirit) had descended upon the man Jesus at His baptism (enabling Him to perform miracles), but then left Him again at the crucifixion. Cerinthus also advocated a doctrine of justification by works ­ in particular, the absolute necessity of observing the ceremonial ordinances of the Old Covenant in order to be saved."

Etc., etc., ad infinitum. bttt

147
posted on 05/08/2011 8:11:09 PM PDT
by Matchett-PI
("Freedom's Just Another Word For Nothing Left to Tax " ~ Gagdad Bob)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 676, follows a discussion of the church’s ultimate trial. “The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism [underline added], especially the ‘intrinsically perverse’ political form of a secular messianism.” http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu29.htm

148
posted on 05/08/2011 9:20:27 PM PDT
by Matchett-PI
("Freedom's Just Another Word For Nothing Left to Tax " ~ Gagdad Bob)

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