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To prove out something that is already well known and many people have been taught to do for hundreds of years?
It's not magic now is it?

No, not magic -- but physics can be good or bad and remain stuck on mistaken one for a fairly long period of time ... like the sun, you know -- which, plainly, goes around the the earth, right ??? --

Similarly, it was never observations that were in error -- it was the physical interpretation. -- That is really all that is lacking as far as definition goes ... There's only so much one can do with Ptolemaic epicycles, I mean, really. ... one can plot an orbit in those terms ... but for heaven's sake -- why would you want to ..??

Some people eschew the need for any accurate physical description -- (and yet for reasons not readily apparent continue in discussions online). Others rely on things that are simplistic and understandable and suggestive -- but in a key way are fatally flawed as a physical description -- like vectors. Vectors commute. you can easily run them backwards and get where you started from ... except that you can't -- in the real world ...

You cannot trivially reverse the process describing a real world 3d rotation in vector terms. The math will seem right but the result -- to our more refined powers of perception -- will be jerky and artificial and full of gaps. Real world 3d moments, waves, and rotations don't commute -- ask any capable video simulation game designer you may know. Use the word "quaternion."

In a situation involving actual 3d degrees of rotational freedom, using vectors has this naughty problem of creating a situation called "gimbal lock" in control systems. They had to rip out whole suites of control circuitry in the Apollo program because of this problem. Imagine trying to compute time-rate-distance problems on a spherical grid within ten feet of the North pole -- that's the control problem that causes gimbal lock. Not consciously -- but the body has very flexible reference systems for the controls that it uses -- and they can be trained, and in some case substituted -- that is what we are talking about.

In rough terms, once the delicate mechanism is out of alignment, there is no control mode that can accurately take you from the compromised position straight back along the path in reverse to the starting position. The sudden discontinuity of linear reversal creates a non-linearity in the other degrees of freedom that defeats the linearity of the reversal along the line attempted -- "you can't get there from here" -- You can only keep going the long way round on all three axes to get back to the original position -- which of course one is likely to overshoot without a great deal of training in this kind of "navigation" -- instantaneously, of course -- ideally.

This does not require much gross movement, though they certainly can be used (see the aiki taiso) and are the same thing -- but does require, by whatever means, that the same conversion occur, which can be by a wave or pulse (see, again, the aiki taiso) which is equivalent to the gross rotations.

It is hard to see that on video for the same reason -- unless you are attuned to the nature of the problem -- because small changes are disproportionately "folded up" at the cusps or poles of reversal and when unfolded become arbitrarily large.

In case you did not notice your body is a control system -- as well as the machine it controls. The phenomenon of actively using this "gimbal lock" against an opponent whose body and perception is not keyed to the correct perception and whose mode of action is not adapted to the right control scheme is directly presented in applications of aiki -- most typically in aspects of kokyu tanden ho, and in others, the "shudder drops" which are immense fun -- and "pops and drops" (or aiki age and aiki sage, if you prefer) applications of various kinds.

Like at a beach -- any sudden discontinuity (ground, extremity, or the point of uke's bad alignment) breaks the wave -- catastrophically, and yet continuous transitions, even rapid ones, reverses it seamlessly -- like the run-up on a steep beach or the intersection of two waves -- the latter of which is a most useful way of looking at the problem IMO, YMMV.

Suggesting that 10 years of dedicated martial arts training is small compared to your 34 is silly. If you both studied medicine, you'd both be doctors. Comments like this keep our martial art in the dark ages.

The demonstration you are discussing is cooperative. Just because you don't "think" it is when you are doing it doesn't change that fact. Could he do that on someone with no Aikido training, who wasn't interested in playing along? From what I can see, no.

This could be shown on film very easily. Do it on a street corner, like David Blaine. Ask some passers by to try your "experiment". Sounds like a lot of work, and I wouldn't blame you for not trying it. But the door is open if you'd like to try.

The suggestion that this stuff is impossible to show on film leads me, as an objective person, to believe what you are talking about is false.There have been a myriad of very odd answers about this "power" that some are calling "Aiki". Answers that a skeptical person, like myself, finds preposterous.

Again my video offer stands. If you can do something on video that I can't duplicate, I'd love to see it.

Chris:

You have Mike Sigman gently saying that you are scratching a surface in some areas and chasing your tail in others. He is kind enough to meet with you and work with you to show you that you do not know what you do not know until you experience it.

You have Dan Harden bluntly telling you that you are off-base and has also offered to meet with you. He too is willing to show you that you do not know what you do not know until you experience it.

Both of these men are highly respected and accomplished in the area that you are trying to pursue. Both of them are being honest and open with you. What looks phony frequently is and what is real in the IP world also looks phony. That makes viewing video tapes to be difficult at best. Your challenges are simply assuming that you know more than you do. Instead of posturing on the web, spend some money and travel to work with either Mike or Dan. It will be a wise investment. The path you are currently on is simply looking like a person backed into the corner, trying to appear invulnerable. I would love to hear a report from you after spending a weekend training with either one of these accomplished gentlemen.

Suggesting that 10 years of dedicated martial arts training is small compared to your 34 is silly. If you both studied medicine, you'd both be doctors. Comments like this keep our martial art in the dark ages..

Doctors ? - Maybe - but I would be semi-retired making a bundle on the lecture circuit as well as mentoring all the up and coming medical talents while he would be struggling to make a living dodging all the malpractice litigation

Chris, I am not taking anything you say personally. However, I did take the last comment from Michael as personal since it implied I did not have the experience to see what he assumed was so obvious in the video, so I responded accordingly - If we look at 'Sempai' to mean 'one who came before' than I believe I was his Sempai in Aikido before he was even born. However, enough of that - he made the comment and I responded accordingly; now let's just focus on the facts.

Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:

The demonstration you are discussing is cooperative. Just because you don't "think" it is when you are doing it doesn't change that fact. Could he do that on someone with no Aikido training, who wasn't interested in playing along? From what I can see, no...

You keep calling Gleason's video a demonstration, it is not. It is a paired exercise shown by him at a seminar that has roles to follow by both uke and nage (much like any wasa) so the concepts and principles of the exercise can be explored by both parties. No one has ever said it was a demonstration of a real attack and a real response. In addition, I never said I did not think it was cooperative, but the level of cooperation is no more than what you find in any interaction between uke and nage where uke provides a honest attack and nage responds accordingly to the energy being exerted; which in this exercise is more than it appears. What I did imply was that the assumption and comments that uke's actions are being exaggerated as you and Michael have stated in your posts is wrong. My point being was that when you jump in with assumed observations of a video simply based on what it looks like to you, will not present a very valid point of view because you have no experience with the individual in the video. And now you add to your misplaced opinion by stating that someone that does have hands on experience with that individual is wrong because you just don't believe it's real; that is a pretty absurd position to take. Also, as far as being able to do that exercise with someone that has no Aikido training? absolutely! I have a new guy with less that 2 month's time on the mat, and in one extended session, I had him doing exactly that, plus more stuff along those same line - being new, he had no conditioned uke responses at all; but he did follow the role of uke (which by the way does not consist of moving where nage says to nor to exaggerate anything as well) for those exercises so the application of internal energies could be internally felt and the subsequent external movements observed.

Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:

This could be shown on film very easily. Do it on a street corner, like David Blaine. Ask some passers by to try your "experiment". Sounds like a lot of work, and I wouldn't blame you for not trying it. But the door is open if you'd like to try.

The suggestion that this stuff is impossible to show on film leads me, as an objective person, to believe what you are talking about is false.There have been a myriad of very odd answers about this "power" that some are calling "Aiki". Answers that a skeptical person, like myself, finds preposterous.

Again my video offer stands. If you can do something on video that I can't duplicate, I'd love to see it.

Since Dan has already jumped in on this part of your post, I won't say much here other than I don't see how you will be able to truly duplicate anything from a video if you don't have a clue as to what the internal cause and effect is - you may be able to mimic the movements ( and if you did, you would call it cooperative) but to actually duplicate all that is going on is impossible unless you been there and done that.

I can't be certain, but I didn't read this as stating "it can't be shown on video," but that video restricts what can be experienced to a 2-D visual image, and this limitation on sensory input fosters misinterpretation of what is occurring in terms of our existing preconceptions..

I can't be certain, but I didn't read this as stating "it can't be shown on video," but that video restricts what can be experienced to a 2-D visual image, and this limitation on sensory input fosters misinterpretation of what is occurring in terms of our existing preconceptions.

Exactly - a video can show an IS\IP exchange, but you will only capture the two dimension visual aspect of any external component. But it can not explain what is truly going on with the internal stuff, both the internal physical and definitively not the mental part. Also, it's important to keep in mind that there could be an internal energy exchange between uke and nage where neither one shows any outward movement at all - now how would someone explain that from a video ?

Ah, heck, it doesn't always matter even when you're standing right there. I chuckle when a sensei of mine will have someone kinda locked up and he'll say "now I have him, now I don't. Did you see the difference?" Huh? No. No I didn't... The uke, on the other hand, is usually nodding enthusiastically.

That's something I've seen Toby Threadgill do a few times at his seminars. "Now I have him, now I don't, now I have him..." Huh? What? So I invariably offer up my arm ("Mongo need feel"). Okay, yup, I feel it.

Videos often show clues. Video often shows when someone *doesn't* have it. But sometimes the outside looks good but the inside ain't there. So...

Go train with someone who has it. Then decide. Which reminds me -- I need to send a check for an upcoming seminar. Mongo need feel some more...

Or one can walk away from the comfort of the computer screen and go to a seminar...

I get people asking me sword polishing questions all the time, often posed as "I've never been trained how to polish a sword, but I don't understand why you..." If you have to start the statement with "I've never done it, I've never felt it, I'm completely untrained, I've never gone to a seminar, or I've never left the comfort of hiding behind my computer screen" you really should be saying "thanks for sharing what you can" rather than "I want more -- my inexperienced and untrained ego isn't satisfied yet. Please me. Make me happy according to what my ignorant brain totally lacking experience and context says I need."

Pffft. This ain't a spectator sport. Until you get out there and actually test it out it is nothing more than mental masturbation.

I think I finally get what you guys are saying. If a person sees something that looks to him like what he does normally, but the uke is behaving strangely.. then it just looks like over-compliance on the uke's part. (And to some degree, it almost always DOES have some over-acting mixed in, so that confuses things even more.)

The cynic in me says you're right and making video does not improve the conversations, which already suffer from "I already do that." The optimist in me says that if we are very honest in making and watching videos, we can get somewhere by using video-- even if it is just something like post a vid, and people take it or leave it.

Hello WIlliam
To prove out something that is already well known and many people have been taught to do for hundreds of years?
It's not magic now is it?
The stuff I have seen on video is very rudimentary aynway.
As I said in an earlier post; some kid saying "if it isn't on video, it didn't happen" just validates his own stupidity from "the world revolves around me" mentality.

There are now a number of shows on Cable where folks seek out and discover the various Martial Arts and "experience them" for the audience and personally I find them very informative and enjoyable. Why not have Ark Mike Sigman or You on one?

Quote:

People who want this will find it. Comments like "I don't understand it, so it isn't real" is common enough. I like the fact that the doubters have gotten out to test things and go see many different people. Qualifying or invalidating things based on your own -lack- of experience is never a good idea, getting out there and putting your theories on the line is a good way to go.
Dan

Dan you have no quibble with me there... but how many of you guys are out there... 3...A dozen...It took me 4 years to find a style of Aikido How much time should I waste finding an IMA guy who walks the walk. Everytime some new dude pops up here You or Mike or one of Ark's guys shoot them down...

Time is short and I see no reason not to share what you know and help others to find "it"

Despite how some folks feel about Chris's "presentation" he has a valid point.

William Hazen

At least O'Sensei thought Aikido should be shared with the world so If Aikido lacks Aiki then what are we waiting for...LETS SHARE IT!

Why do the proponents of "it has to be felt to be understood" spend so much time and words trying to describe what it is that is to be understood on internet forums? Especially if words are the least way of conveying meaning.

Why do the proponents of "it has to be felt to be understood" spend so much time and words trying to describe what it is that is to be understood on internet forums? Especially if words are the least way of conveying meaning.

David

Because like most non-trivial things involving physical interaction it is interesting to talk about. And those who have found things they find interesting and edifying like to talk about them.

Why do so many who question and argue never actually go out and hit a seminar? You'd think there'd be more shrugging with statements like "hmmm, interesting, I've never felt that" instead of some of the things you read. I didn't have much to say apart from asking simple questions now and then until I hit a few seminars and workshops. I wasn't sure whether what was being discussed was similar/related/on the same level as what I had already experience. Afterwards I find myself asking fewer questions as I try to better understand what I felt in person and how it relates to what I have been taught over the years. Lots to digest.

Me, I'll stick with an occasional seminar and keep struggling to learn. So now I shrug. [shrug] and bow. [Bow]

I'll also add that some of the rather bombastic posts by some on either side of the discussion don't do much good either. Lots of ego to go around. But then again, that's not exactly unusual in the world of martial arts either. So I shrug again...

And damn, I find that I mistakenly erased the first line response to your post. Sorry about that.

What I had wrote in response to this

Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:

Why do the proponents of "it has to be felt to be understood" spend so much time and words trying to describe what it is that is to be understood on internet forums? Especially if words are the least way of conveying meaning.

David

was this.

Quote:

Keith Larman wrote:

because that's the way to convey information on a discussion forum... Discussion.

Why do the proponents of "it has to be felt to be understood" spend so much time and words trying to describe what it is that is to be understood on internet forums? Especially if words are the least way of conveying meaning.

Yeah, but in watching the response to video above it certain hasn't helped, has it?

I've had many people ask me to train them to polish over the last decade. They beg, they plead, they do all sorts of odd things. I've had people tell me I have a responsibility to pass on what I worked so very hard to learn.

I say the same thing everytime -- come on by and I'll let you watch what I do. If you stick with it I'll show you more.

Exactly two people have ever taken me up on the offer to come watch. Two.

If you can't make a seminar, well, then you can't. Fine. That doesn't magically change the reality of the situation anymore than the guy who couldn't be bothered to spend an hour to drive out to watch me polish to learn something. I can't satisfy everyone's idle curiosity. he wanted me to explain it via e-mail. It doesn't work that way. It's like learning Aikido by reading a book but never stepping on the mat. Simply doesn't work past some intellectual familiarity.

You want it bad enough to get there. If you can't, so be it. But none of that changes the reality of the situation. That it can't be communicated to you in *your* preferred mode is your issue, not anyone else's.

Dan,
For someone like myself, who lives on the opposite side of the country, we cannot see your demonstrations at the local gyms, and seminars. For someone like myself, your claims are simply claims. You could make a video of one of your many encounters with the local strong men, then we could see what you are doing.

I do know of some gentlemen from bullshido.net who live on your side of the country. They would like to meet you. Why not let them come by and you can show them your abilities? It is easy for you to throw trained fighters around. You can kick and punch them, and they can do nothing to stop you. Why not let some of these fellows come visit. Even if you won't allow them to make video, we could hear their, as unbiased judges, opinions.

I hope to be meeting with Mike Sigman in August. If he can do anything that I am unfamiliar with, be assured I will let everyone know. I really don't feel the need for anymore power. However I am interested in the use of the human body, and a new (to me) way to use it is very interesting.

Dan,
For someone like myself, who lives on the opposite side of the country, we cannot see your demonstrations at the local gyms, and seminars. For someone like myself, your claims are simply claims.

You forget that some very credible people in aikido get out of their way to recommend experiencing what Dan, Mike and some others demonstrate. Hell, Ellis Amdur actually wrote a book where he basically confessed that after decades of budo study those essential things had escaped him ! George Ledyard met those guys and was convinced. In France, Leo Tamaki invites Minoru Akuzawa regularly and studies under Kuroda sensei. Even if it's not entirely conclusive, it should still account for something.

Quote:

You could make a video of one of your many encounters with the local strong men, then we could see what you are doing.

We already know the reactions : "they are tanking for him, they are his friends, too much collusion, I'm not impressed", etc. I don't know anything about Dan Harden's real abilities, but I understand his stance : he doesn't owe anyone anything, he doesn't want this stuff to force him to do something he doesn't want to. It's also a good way of selecting students. If some people are motivated enough to come and see him AND THEN work out by themselves to develop those skills, then he will put up the effort and train with them.

Quote:

I do know of some gentlemen from bullshido.net who live on your side of the country. They would like to meet you. Why not let them come by and you can show them your abilities? It is easy for you to throw trained fighters around. You can kick and punch them, and they can do nothing to stop you. Why not let some of these fellows come visit. Even if you won't allow them to make video, we could hear their, as unbiased judges, opinions.

Are you talking about the same Bullshido site that I know ? Anyway, Rob John posted in that site, invited people in Tokyo, and one of them went. He returned convinced, not only that Akuzawa's method was powerful but also that it was completely unusual.

Quote:

I hope to be meeting with Mike Sigman in August. If he can do anything that I am unfamiliar with, be assured I will let everyone know. I really don't feel the need for anymore power. However I am interested in the use of the human body, and a new (to me) way to use it is very interesting.

Mike Sigman is a precise and generous instructor, very open to questions. I'm confident that if you go and do what he says, you'll have your foot in the door. The only frustrating thing with his seminar is that you realise how much personal work you have to put on before what he demonstrates works for you.

Ok so this video is not Aikido - but I think this demonstrates some of the internal principles. He seems to be taking on all comers so it doesn't seem faked. Also noted is that the opponents also don't have great structure and seem to be amateurs, which I think shows that they are not necessarily his students taking a dive.

...The only frustrating thing with his seminar is that you realise how much personal work you have to put on before what he demonstrates works for you.

I agree on the frustration part. I have not attended Mike's seminar but I have brief experience with some taichi guys and aikido masters who can walk the talk. There is no guarantee that the personal work that you put in will make it works for you. Internal skill are definitely not for morons. Most time, you have to wait for the light bulb upstair to lit up and continue to be lighted up.

Then, there is always the peer pressure. Imagine a group of yudansha having a same rank and all having invested an equivalent amount of time in aikido but in the group only one or two has a grasp of aiki. Ideally, one would declare "I don't have it, please teach me" but, the pride in some will say "I don't believe in Ki or aiki" or "I will wait for later to learn it". Frustration can also cause some to abandon aikido for another MA (which they don't need to apply their mental faculty) or leave the group to go back to the enclosure of the 'my way or the highway' sensei where they find aikido can always work. Years down the road, with the lack of interest in "aiki", Aikido can then be referred to as Kiaido.

Pffft. This ain't a spectator sport. Until you get out there and actually test it out it is nothing more than mental masturbation.

but i thought we, aikido folks, enjoyed mental masturbation. i mean, how are we going to achieve mutual mental orgasm if we don't? incidentally, the battery power of aiki in aikido has run out for me, so i need to get new internal power for better vibe results from mental masturbation.