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Topic: Lord's Prayer (Read 15164 times)

I would like to obtain a word-for-word translation of the Coptic Lord's Prayer.

After downloading several Coptic fonts and unicode, I was able to read Coptic online. I have the Lord's Prayer in Coptic but the words do not correspond to the English. I've spent hours reading Coptic grammer but there are still many words in the Lord's Prayer that I can't translate.

If you want to say it as the saints used to say it, I assume you are pronouncing it in the old pronunciation ?But anyway If you want really to "feel" the words, u need to learn the language itselfnot just a translation like this

Learning a language is a difficult task. I don't want to get bogged down in the grammer that I cannot do anything else. This happened when I tried to learn French. I'd rather be able to read only without being able to write a composition. Is there a website that can help me get started?

As for the old pronunciation of the Bohairic dialect, I believe there must have been a multitude of local accents, just as there are for all living languages. I listened to a hymn from a link in this forum. The pronunciation replaced the sound of th with t, t with d, p with b, e with a, and j with g. It's hard for me to imagine that that is how educated people pronounced the Coptic language, otherwise many letters would have been unnecessary and would have been eliminated.

Is it possible that the accent that survived as Old Bohairic is merely equivalent of Cockney English, while the correct pronunciation did not survive?

Yes, I'm from Egypt and I speak the Bohairic Arabic dialect (usually called Egyptian Arabic) with a Cairene accent.

Bohairic Arabic, if I may use this term, is spoken with a continuum of regional accents. “There is a linguistic shift from the eastern to the western parts of the delta, and the dialects spoken from Gizah to el Minya are further grouped into a Middle Egypt cluster.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Arabic

I suspect that Bohairic Coptic was also spoken with many different accents, of which only one survived in el Minya, and only God knows how much this one changed over the centuries. What’s your take on this?

So, Since you know Egyptian dialectyou should have probably noticed that the Egyptians never say pronounce letter "th" instead they pronounce it "t" as inte3ban instead of tho3ban "snake"taman instead of thaman "price"even in english classes many people fail to pronounce the "th" and pronounce it "s" instead

so when somebody come and tell you that the Coptic language has the letter "th" you can reset assured that they are not correctsame thing for the letter "V", this letter NEVER existed in our language

But generally speaking, I agree with you that the different Coptic Dialects had different accentswe can notice that from the different spellings of some wordsBut I don't know what you mean by "one survived in el Minya"

Father Dr. Maher does not mention the origin of the pronunciation of p like “b”, t like “d”, or j like “g”. I will not stress the pronunciation of e like “a”, in the recording that I listened to, since in many languages the correct pronunciation of vowels is only in the eyes of the beholder.

I’m quite interested in learning the “old” Bohairic pronunciation. It is the best “guess” arrived at by modern scholarship, even though I’m not absolutely sure of its accuracy. But I’m really ignorant about the matter . Can you suggest a recording of the Lord’s Prayer in “old” Bohairic?

A friend of mine mentioned that a couple of churches in el Minya hire only pastors and deacons from local families that kept the old Bohairic pronunciation in their tradition. This is what I meant by writing that a certain accent “survived in el Minya.” I would like you to confirm this for me, please. Thank you for all the help.

Unfortunately, I can't confirm thisbut if you can give us any clue about where exactly in Minya those people live, Let me know and we could go there and checkAs far as I know there is only some few churches that prays in Old Bohairic, those churches are in village called Zineia near Luxur

Thank you very much for the internet link, it lead me to a thread of messages from 2006 containing many other links with a wealth of information.

I'll ask my friend about the churches that pray in old Bohairic but it seems quite likely that they are the same ones you mentioned near Luxur. Wouldn't you expect these to pray in Sahidic, though? Are we confusing Sahidic as "old" Bohairic?

Every time I tried to include Coptic letters in my messages, they changed to Latin letters in the posts. I downloaded the arial coptic and am able to see your messages in Coptic. How can I show Coptic letters in my messages?

Regarding SahidicI was expecting the same thing, But the story says that those people were originally Arabic speakers until some one from Asiut "who was native Coptic speaks" taught them how to talk in the Coptic language and they continued to talk in Coptic until recentlyBut if this story is true then what makes a person from Asuit speak Bohairic dialect?Maybe because at that time Bohairic became the dominant language for prayingWhy it became the dominant language, this is a question that needs to be answered

> But if this story is true then what makes a person from Asuit speak Bohairic dialect?Maybe because at that time Bohairic became the dominant language for prayingWhy it became the dominant language, this is a question that needs to be answered <

I stumbled on the answer, thank God for the internet . "Sahidic dialect is not used in liturgical services since 10th or 11th century, due to the activity of Shihat monks in writing manuscripts, which lead popes to announce Bohairic as the dialect of the Church of Egypt." http://www.geocities.com/remenkimi/pronounciation.html

I understand this to mean that Coptic liturgical books since the 10th or 11th century have exclusively included the Bohairic dialect / word spelling. But I don't see how the popes could have prevented people in Upper Egypt from using the Sahidic pronunciation!

BTW, the link you gave me for the Lord's Prayer in "old" Bohairic did not work.