No, because fuck Rebuild. I hate Rebuild so much I think it might be my one true nemesis. I keep watching the Rebuild movies over and over again just so I can find new reasons to hate them. Rebuild's version of the Zeruel fight is like, in my top three at least.

Plus they didn't actually say he was at 400% there; that was a totally different thing going on.

TheLastDalek

05-01-2014, 06:13 AM

No, because fuck Rebuild. I hate Rebuild so much I think it might be my one true nemesis. I keep watching the Rebuild movies over and over again just so I can find new reasons to hate them. Rebuild's version of the Zeruel fight is like, in my top three at least.

Plus they didn't actually say he was at 400% there; that was a totally different thing going on.

That's very Spiteful of you

BitVyper

05-01-2014, 06:20 AM

That's very Spiteful of you

A good hateship takes hard work and devotion.

TheLastDalek

05-01-2014, 06:59 AM

A good hateship takes hard work and devotion.

Or you could not waste your time on something you don't like and stop saying things just to spite the people who enjoy it.

BitVyper

05-01-2014, 07:05 AM

Or you could not waste your time on something you don't like and stop saying things just to spite the people who enjoy it.

What about my response indicates that I am actively trying to hurt T51R? I guess "fuck rebuild" was a bit vulgar, but I didn't exactly launch into a tirade of ranty criticism or try to make anyone feel bad for liking it; I pretty much just said I hate it and made a self-deprecating joke about how I keep watching it anyway.

TheLastDalek

05-01-2014, 07:22 AM

What about my response indicates that I am actively trying to hurt T51R? I guess "fuck rebuild" was a bit vulgar, but I didn't exactly launch into a tirade of ranty criticism or try to make anyone feel bad for liking it; I pretty much just said I hate it and made a self-deprecating joke about how I keep watching it anyway.

This is the internet whenever some one says something sucks nine times out of ten there saying it to spite people who like

And try to avoid the vitriol regarding a story/character/whatever, because it does provoke responses.

Cleric of Hell's Brigade

05-01-2014, 08:32 AM

Ehh, Shinji's flat out better than Asuka. Not a better technical pilot, mind you, but his EVA's better than hers by a fair margin as shown in the series. Even if she out pilots him, his machine is simply better.

Hazard

05-01-2014, 08:56 AM

What Cleric said.

Unit 1 is a cooler toy.

Nepotism wins the day!

BitVyper

05-01-2014, 03:47 PM

Shinji definitely seems to produce stronger AT fields, but Asuka at 400%'s advantage in combat ability really can't be understated. Like I said in my other Eva thread on Pre-Crisis CBR, she was dodging Macross-level missile barrages, and she pulled off a couple catches, specifically the N2 missile and the not-Longinus lance (remember, Evas throw things hard enough to put them on the moon AFTER going through an Angel), that even scaled up to Eva distances would require some superspeed reflexes. I think she's got a solid chance of outplaying Shinji

Cleric of Hell's Brigade

05-02-2014, 04:43 AM

Ohh, no question, but you have to remember that 01 regens, and that 01 simply has better strength and durability feats than the other EVA's. Shinji supported the falling Angel by himself for a brief time, which should have been impossible Ritsuko said, and he tore through an alternate dimension.

Asuka's a better technical pilot, sure, but I don't think it matters much when 01 can simply grapple and overpower hers.

The Drunkard Kid

05-02-2014, 05:10 AM

I think the stronger AT fields thing is significant here, since that means that he can tear open Asuka's defense, but the latter is not as likely. Especially since 400% Asuka, while a beast, was still in control so she is limited largely by her own understanding of the Eva while Berserk Shinji is in some weird mental fugue state where he/Yui/the Eva itself starts doing things that top Eva experts can't even begin to understand.

Also, am I right in assuming that they both get unlimited battery time? Cuz otherwise this may be over in a few minutes in the favor of whoever manages to tear the other's power cable first, unless we're spotting Shinji his S2 Engine.

BitVyper

05-02-2014, 09:28 AM

limited largely by her own understanding of the Eva

Asuka obtained 400% specifically because she reached the point of fully understanding her Eva. Furthermore, I don't know that Shinji's AT field is THAT much stronger. Asuka's was clearly upgraded in EoE, but she didn't have anything like Zeruel to give a clear point of comparison. She did hold out against nine other Evas though, which makes it impressive that her AT field wasn't totally neutralized.

And no, both are on a limited battery from the outset (although both have shown that they can ignore battery life by berserking anyway). Sorry, I should have specified.

Melchior

05-02-2014, 12:34 PM

I would actually state that Asuka never hit 400% because her ego borderline never collapsed. She probably got real close, but not over. As it was, she definitely could outfight any normal EVA.

The problem is 400% Unit 01 had some pretty crazy feats. Regeneration, not really a limit on power, and a deflection trick with the AT field that caused Zeruel to cut itself with its own arm, through its own AT Field. That is actually probably going to be the tide turner - Shinji can knock back attacks from a distance so hard that they rebreach an AT field, while the closest Asuka ever pulled was against conventional VTOL craft. If Asuka does not take down Shinji in 2-3 hits (pinning or killing him, either way), then she is likely to get mauled by a counterattack. Just a matter of higher specs and what appears to be a stronger AT field.

BitVyper

05-02-2014, 04:41 PM

I would actually state that Asuka never hit 400% because her ego borderline never collapsed. She probably got real close, but not over. As it was, she definitely could outfight any normal EVA.

IIRC, they actually say she's at 400% in the scene. I could be misremembering though.

Regeneration

Only by using the body part of an angel though.

not really a limit on power

Well, Asuka was able to berserk herself up some extra power too, it's just that she was already completely torn to ribbons, where Shinji was only missing an arm.

and a deflection trick with the AT field that caused Zeruel to cut itself with its own arm, through its own AT Field. That is actually probably going to be the tide turner

This, I could see, although he still has to manage to actually hit her. That's so rarely been a problem that an Eva has had to overcome that I think it could also break Shinji's power advantage here with just how agile and quick Macross-mode Asuka is.

Melchior

05-03-2014, 09:35 PM

IIRC, they actually say she's at 400% in the scene. I could be misremembering though.

Just double-checked it myself, watching the whol sequence from them moving her out to the lake to Shinji popping out of HQ. Only screens show power left and operational status, and none of the talk mentions sync ratios. No numbers other than time on the Japanese track. They did identify her as going berserk right before the other lances got tossed into her.

Only by using the body part of an angel though.

Berserker Unit 01 also regenerated its smashed wrist back during the fight with Sachiel.

Well, Asuka was able to berserk herself up some extra power too, it's just that she was already completely torn to ribbons, where Shinji was only missing an arm.

Too true. And I had forgotten that was after the "crow feast" scene, so she's REALLY torn up. Yeah, power limits on a berserking Unit (and thus, this fight) should probably be ignored.

This, I could see, although he still has to manage to actually hit her. That's so rarely been a problem that an Eva has had to overcome that I think it could also break Shinji's power advantage here with just how agile and quick Macross-mode Asuka is.

I watched the jump again. There's no dodging, its a straight parabolic arc with some center of axis rotation. I could have sworn there was some additional lateral movement, some actual maneuvering, but nope. And Asuka does not move any faster than what's been shown before (and slower than the "catch Sahaquiel" bit) throughout the rest of the fight. Honestly, I think it's more of a sudden, long jump.

Honestly, it is my personal opinion that she looks downright clunky when she is swatting the VTOL craft.

As for Shinji's deflection trick.... I rewatched that scene, too. And it is actually worse than I remember, because it was not a deflection/reflection of the arm back. The scene literally goes "Zeruel sends the remaining arm out at Unit 01, Unit 01 swings its arm up and down before it reaches him, the Zeruel's arm is torn up, arm is wrecked all the way to Zeruel's body, which is torn up and the AT Field slashed through."

Let's see if this works....
Destruction of arm - note that it is the middle, no presence of Unit 01 in the shot.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2jzd04.png

Damage to Zeruel - cuts all over the body (lower left going upper right), the AT Field cut, and the left arm (the attacking one) is still randomly shredded. And the cuts and all are shown before the AT Field is definitively shown as cut, and then the blood sprays out and hits the Field.
http://i60.tinypic.com/opqufp.png

And that is after he kicked Zeruel away, so it is at least several body lengths distant. I checked the AT Field scene for Unit 02 during the fight, and I could not confirm whether her trick simply smashed a series of missiles, or hit aircraft.

So, in my opinion I think the fight is actually more a 100% operational/functional/effective Unit 02 (Asuka during End of Evangelion) versus a berserking Unit 01 (Zeruel fight, arguably the latter half of the Sachiel fight). And the latter has an apparently invisible, ranged, AT Field-penetrating attack that it can perform by swinging a limb. If Asuka could get into hand-to-hand range with Unit 01, and Unit 01 was not in an overpowering berserker rage, I could see her winning. But against a berserking Unit 01.... she will probably still get torn apart.

BitVyper

05-03-2014, 10:18 PM

I watched the jump again. There's no dodging, its a straight parabolic arc with some center of axis rotation. I could have sworn there was some additional lateral movement, some actual maneuvering, but nope. And Asuka does not move any faster than what's been shown before (and slower than the "catch Sahaquiel" bit) throughout the rest of the fight. Honestly, I think it's more of a sudden, long jump.

Eeeh I wouldn't call it a straight arc; she rotates in flight specifically avoiding missiles that were directly in her flight path. If that was just part of the motion of her jump, then it was perfectly planned to the point of being high end battle precog. It's not something that really looks like a natural part of her jump, and she could easily have manipulated it via AT field or any number of other ways.

Then there's also the missile catch, and catching the thrown javelin/lance of longinus, which she really only reacted to in the last hundredish metres of its flight, and could have easily been moving up to around mach 30, since we know Evas can throw things at actual escape velocity (I've made mistakes when citing escape velocity in the past, which I was corrected on, but 00's space throw actually had to be escape velocity).

I can't really agree with you on the clunkiness. There's certainly parts where the eva's weight and momentum appear to work against her (mainly when using that giant not-longinus-lance weapon), but then she also pulls off things like that one super high kick without falling over, and some wrestling submission type stuff. She mostly seems pretty agile, where a lot of other Eva combat has either been up close grappling, or just charging with all their weight (like in 01 vs Sachiel).

Just double-checked it myself, watching the whol sequence from them moving her out to the lake to Shinji popping out of HQ. Only screens show power left and operational status, and none of the talk mentions sync ratios. No numbers other than time on the Japanese track. They did identify her as going berserk right before the other lances got tossed into her.

Fair enough. I must have been wrong, though I could have sworn it was said somewhere.