It's the start of a match, and my opponent and I are on our knees, one hand on chest/shirt, one hand on lapel. What are some submission attempts/position change type moves that I can do from this position? I'm quite light, so probably no using hip power to throw him into bottom guard.

I usually just shoot in and try and get some sort of guillotine type choke, and if that fails, I pull him into my guard.

6/16/2004 2:02am,

bunyip

In my opinion, submissions and "takedowns" from knees are completely pointless. You're never going to be in this position in a tournament or real fight, so why waste time on it? I'd rather start under someone's side control.

I usually pull butterfly guard, which my opponents pass in a couple seconds, and we go from there.

6/16/2004 8:03am,

Ronin

Knee work is a drill and can be used to help you practice various moves with minimal lower body movement, it also adds a different element to clinch work.
Its a drill, that's all.
You can also try arm bars and lock too, like armpit arm bars and figure 4 wrist/elbow locks.

6/18/2004 12:24pm,

Adrenaline

If ya want to be a dick....pull forward and as your opponent sits down to resist reverse and push him straight back.....it does wonders for pulling the quads......oh of course lay your weight on him as he goes back......

6/19/2004 12:09am,

mikus

I almost always pull guard. I think it's ridiculous to fight it. Because usually it's more strength than anything on the knees, and I'm almost always smaller and weaker than the other person, so if they refuse to go to their back, I just go to mine. I hate seing people fight like that. One of 'em should just stand up and knock the other fucker over.

6/21/2004 1:46pm,

The Crack Taoist

I am assuming from context you guys don't
work knee around drills like harimau silat?

Or do sliding lunges the length of the
training area?

6/21/2004 7:25pm,

mikus

We're talking about doing groundwork. We're not talking about the other stuff.

6/21/2004 8:17pm,

Yrkoon9

Starting from your knees is the way to AVOID the really nasty Judo injuries that occurr when you start on your feet. It is a great way to transition newbies and midlevel people into sparring without having to worry about them A) destroying their knee from a failed/countered throw B) destroying their shoulder from a bad fall C) injuring their back from having 2 guys both weighing 200+ hitting the ground.

This is NOT to say that stand up sparring should be avoided, it is just to transition. Much like learning to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. I cannot count the number of times I have seen white belts go down with injuries because they were unprepared for the level of training. If you have not learned and practiced breakfalls a LOT, then don't do stand up that will include throws. It's that simple.

I don't like training much from the knees because often times it is simply a strength game, who can knock who over first. Or who will jump to guard first. You CAN execute Osoto Gari effectively from the knees, and you can sit back into a nice armlock as they try to power you over. You can use headsnaps, duckunders, and armdrags from wrestling. You can grab single and double legs without worrying about the other guys knee bending the wrong way. But my overall frustration is the lack of footsweeps and leg throws that I use from Judo. I do see however, that practicing that all the time leads to a lot of injuries. Best for beginners to avoid that sort of thing until they are in A) good shape and can take the abuse B) know their limits and understand the consequences of trying to stop a throw by putting your arm out, instead of breakfalling C) understand the dynamics of throws, falls, and where to put your body to protect things like your knees.

6/21/2004 9:38pm,

Shuma-Gorath

My last successful sweep from the knees involved mimicking hiza guruma (knee wheel). I stuck my left foot out next to the guy's right side where he had his foot flat and knee up. I just grabbed the lapels and rolled him right over and into mount.

This wasn't from a standard kneeling position, but the one-knee position that BJJ guys usually start in.

6/21/2004 10:54pm,

mikus

I agree that if the beginner doesn't have judo experience, starting from the standup is not a good idea. But I think having one person enter guard (from outside of it) is better training than fighting the strength battle on their knees. Some people seem to spend all their time fighting for the takedown from the knees, which has very little (if any) real application.