How to balance child safety with intruder preparedness?

This is a discussion on How to balance child safety with intruder preparedness? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HotGuns
Gun proof your kid.
Teach her about it. Kids are naturally curious and at some point in time she'll want to ...

Teach her about it. Kids are naturally curious and at some point in time she'll want to see it. Take the time to show it to her, explain how it functions and drive home the terrible consequences of its misuse. Let her handle it and take her shooting. Get that curiosity out of the equation. Set some guidelines, let her have no doubt as to what the rules are. She is 8 years old, she can handle it,although its sounds like you've got most of that covered.

As for the not wanting to shoot it, make it interesting for her. Make sure that she has the proper hearing protection and eye protection. Use the mildest loads you can get and if you can, get a .22, something that has little recoil. Sometimes taking a friend along kind of warms them up to the shooting scene. Of course, you'll need permission and you'll have to insure that the friend is up to speed on the rules.

Don't force her to "take" to it, she'll come around eventually. The more she sees you shoot, at some point she'll want to try it herself.

As for your wife, that will take some time.Invite her to go shooting with you. It'll take some work for her to get comfortable with the idea of a gun in the house. The best thing that you can do for her is to be responsible with it and not let yourself get into situations with the gun that you have to explain yourself to get out of.Keep it out of reach and make sure that no one but you can get to it. It was never my kids that I worried about when it came to guns, it was all of their little buddies that they brought in the house with them. You don't know what kind of training, if any, that they had. Settle the fears of your wife and eventually she'll come around too.

Gun proof your girl and gun proof your wife. One isn't much good without the other.

There's a far greater safeguard than teaching your child at age 8 the dangers though a good first step - but do the really responsible thing: get a fingerprint safe and put in nearby with explanations to your child it is always strictly off limits at the same time you go into behavior around firearms.

This is one site that starts almost with the exact situation you're asking about (don't know though their particular products):

(I live alone and for various reasons do not want a loaded gun at hand. I have my safe set at a 2 digits-remaining position which I know would take more time - but still be quite quick and Id have to be fully awake to open it this way. I feel much safer this way. [Though the safest I've ever felt in my adult life was when Federal Marshals were guarding the residence for quite a few months - few years ago.] )

I'm ready for criticism but please be kind. This is a difficult subject and believe me I understand what is being said and the balance in safety that is being discussed. Then again I do not have any children at home except for the occasional visit from grandkids, so it is easy for me. Anyhow--heregoes: KIDS ARE STUPID. KIDS LISTEN AND ARE CURIOUS AND STILL DO WHAT THEY WANT. KIDS' FRIENDS ARE STUPID AND CURIOUS AND PROVIDE THE IMPETUS FOR YOUR KID TO DO SOMETHING STUPID. If a gun can be reached by a kid, no matter what you have done, particularly if it is not locked and has the ability to be fired, something is wrong. I know--your kid is special, your kid is trained, your kid knows, da da da da da da---we are talking about a child and your opinion is clouded about your child. Switch this story around a bit and put a news article in play that discusses a tragedy within the context of this thread and most replies will not be as kind as the replies to this thread. Thankfully most of these type of articles involve really irresponsible behaviour that causes you to shake your head and get angry. I truly hope and pray that none of you are ever faced with such a terrible situation. For this thread, I would hope that adric's wife is given more of a fair input that is followed.

I'm ready for criticism but please be kind. This is a difficult subject and believe me I understand what is being said and the balance in safety that is being discussed. Then again I do not have any children at home except for the occasional visit from grandkids, so it is easy for me. Anyhow--heregoes: KIDS ARE STUPID. KIDS LISTEN AND ARE CURIOUS AND STILL DO WHAT THEY WANT. KIDS' FRIENDS ARE STUPID AND CURIOUS AND PROVIDE THE IMPETUS FOR YOUR KID TO DO SOMETHING STUPID. If a gun can be reached by a kid, no matter what you have done, particularly if it is not locked and has the ability to be fired, something is wrong. I know--your kid is special, your kid is trained, your kid knows, da da da da da da---we are talking about a child and your opinion is clouded about your child. Switch this story around a bit and put a news article in play that discusses a tragedy within the context of this thread and most replies will not be as kind as the replies to this thread. Thankfully most of these type of articles involve really irresponsible behaviour that causes you to shake your head and get angry. I truly hope and pray that none of you are ever faced with such a terrible situation. For this thread, I would hope that adric's wife is given more of a fair input that is followed.

I think you make good points. Education is necessary but fallible - the best odds: safe-technology - biometric type.

I'm ready for criticism but please be kind. This is a difficult subject and believe me I understand what is being said and the balance in safety that is being discussed. Then again I do not have any children at home except for the occasional visit from grandkids, so it is easy for me. Anyhow--heregoes: KIDS ARE STUPID. KIDS LISTEN AND ARE CURIOUS AND STILL DO WHAT THEY WANT. KIDS' FRIENDS ARE STUPID AND CURIOUS AND PROVIDE THE IMPETUS FOR YOUR KID TO DO SOMETHING STUPID. If a gun can be reached by a kid, no matter what you have done, particularly if it is not locked and has the ability to be fired, something is wrong. I know--your kid is special, your kid is trained, your kid knows, da da da da da da---we are talking about a child and your opinion is clouded about your child.

- I'm in this camp. I have 6 year old and 3 year old daughter. I've taught them as best as possible that my guns are off limits. They even know not to touch my pocket knives. That being said, I don't trust them at all since kids will be kids. I can't even trust them to stay away from the cookies and candy when I'm not around. I absolutely would not be able to live with myself if there was a firearm accident because I left out. The odds of a break in or home invasion are miniscule compared to the odds of a firearm accident.

If you want to buy yourself that 3 extra seconds it takes to open a safe, buy a dog.

Sorry OP, but I'm with your wife. With kids in the house, guns are either ON YOU, or IN A SAFE. PERIOD.

Kids do stupid things, no matter how well you teach them. That's why they are not legally responsible for their actions - YOU are.

I have two kids - a 7 year old boy and a 21 month old girl. The boy has been taught, but there is still no way in hell I would ever leave a loaded gun laying around. I keep my guns on me from morning until bed, and then they go in the GunVault safe. That safe has 4 buttons on top. I can enter the code in 2 seconds, either by feel or by sight (I added glow in the dark stickers to make them visible even in the dark). I do NOT trust the fingerprint readers for the very reason you cited - sometimes, you need to scan your finger a few times to get it to work.

If you feel you need more than 2 seconds of time to get into the safe, as others have said - harden your home, get a dog, whatever. But what you are doing is a parent's worst nightmare waiting to happen. And think of it this way - the time you spend opening the safe is time you do not have to spend racking your slide.

Think of it this way too, you'd never forgive yourself if anything happened to your child. And a very good point was made earlier: the relative risk of home invasion, armed robbery in your house are a great deal less than accidents with guns. One thing I do: I keep a light on in each room during the night - (except bedroom of course). A roving BG will pass my place by unless he's really fixated on it and why would he be - . Light is a night BGs enemy - a dog also.

Good last reply Hamlet. Quite frankly every "what if" is less likely than some of the actions mentioned on these forums. Situational awareness is more protecction and in this case, things you can do to "perp proof" your home, including having children aware that the door to the home should never be opened to anyone you do not know, is better protection than having a firearm within reach of a child.

Incredible clarity you are showing here! When I first bought my gun I didn't think that I was also endangering my son not only protecting him. At first I thought I shouldn't say anything to him about the gun. But then I imagined that somehow by some unfortunate accident he may stumble upon it. I don't know. I use to carry it all the time. It is small and it can't be noticed. At night I have it by my bed. I made a special niche under the bed plate that I can rich and get my gun in seconds. I exercised at nights getting it from under the bed plate. I managed to do it after trying several times. I keep the door to my bedroom locked and my son can't get in the room if I don't open it for him, even if I am in the room. I always unlock the door from the outside when I need to get in my bedroom. I explained to him why I bought the gun and what it can do. I really hope I will never use. But trust me, whenever it rains and I hear thunders, I remember the day that determined me to have my gun, and I have no regrets. I just need to be extra careful because I have it but it is a danger that I am in control of not some burglar in the night!

A few nights ago I got to find out exactly how long it would take to get my gun. I heard a crash in the middle of the night, sprang out of bed, opened the dresser drawer, ran my finger across the sensor twice, finally opened, grabbed my Glock 19, chambered it, and began to scout around the house. Turns out one of the cats knocked something over in the house, so it was no big deal. But it seemed like an eternity to get my gun and the whole time I was thinking, if there really is someone in the house, I'll be dead before I get this out.

So, we made a few changes that does help the situation, but is still not to my liking.

First of all, we moved the safe. It is no longer inside a drawer, but now it is right on top of my nightstand. So it is much easier to reach and I don't have to contort my hand to run it across the fingerprint scanner. That actually helps a lot right there. Also the travel time from the bed to the dresser is reduced. Also, when it pops open, I am able to more easily able to open the lid of the safe all of the way, which means I can grab my gun without trying to angle it just the right direction to get it out of a partially opened safe.

Second of all, I am keeping the gun chambered, that reduces an extra step.

Last, I am no longer keeping the gun in its holster. That has been an old habbit of mine, so that in the morning I just grab the holster with the gun already in it. But I realized it ads several seconds to get the gun out of the holster. So I'm not doing that anymore.

So all in all, I have reduced the amount of time it takes to get my gun and be ready to fire by quite a bit. I'll need to do some actual drills to be sure, but I think the time has been reduced by half. In fact, I think I can actually get the gun and be ready to fire faster now than I could before with the safe left unlocked. However, the locked safe is still the most irritating aspect of it, because it is the only part that is not really under my control. I never know for sure if it will accept my fingerprint the first try or not.

I have been looking at some other similar safes and I found one that has some extra features that might help out. For one thing, it has an internal battery (just like mine) but also plugs into the wall. That way you are less likely to run into a situation where the battery has died. Secondly, the fingerprint scanner is just a big one-inch square that you press your finger against. the one I have is the kind where it is a little line you have to run your finger across at just the right speed. I believe that is where most of the failures come from, is me running my finger across too fast or at an angle. So that safe might prove to be better, I think I'm going to buy it.

the gun goes next to your flash and the loaded mag is with you/under pillow or
where you like it. you may even chose to leave the slide locked back at night to speed up the loading process;
plus the sound of the slide closing may give any uninvited peoples pause to think.

at 5 years old my daughter knew what a secret was and i began her firearms training.
at 7 she had her own 10-22 and at 10 a bearcat. you know your son best and the desires of your wife.

There's a lot of really good stuff in this thread - and I thank those writers/contributors as well as will not go into them again, with the exception of one thing:

Originally Posted by kelcarry

I'm ready for criticism but please be kind. This is a difficult subject and believe me I understand what is being said and the balance in safety that is being discussed. Then again I do not have any children at home except for the occasional visit from grandkids, so it is easy for me. Anyhow--heregoes: KIDS ARE STUPID. KIDS LISTEN AND ARE CURIOUS AND STILL DO WHAT THEY WANT. KIDS' FRIENDS ARE STUPID AND CURIOUS AND PROVIDE THE IMPETUS FOR YOUR KID TO DO SOMETHING STUPID. If a gun can be reached by a kid, no matter what you have done, particularly if it is not locked and has the ability to be fired, something is wrong. I know--your kid is special, your kid is trained, your kid knows, da da da da da da---we are talking about a child and your opinion is clouded about your child. Switch this story around a bit and put a news article in play that discusses a tragedy within the context of this thread and most replies will not be as kind as the replies to this thread. Thankfully most of these type of articles involve really irresponsible behaviour that causes you to shake your head and get angry. I truly hope and pray that none of you are ever faced with such a terrible situation. For this thread, I would hope that adric's wife is given more of a fair input that is followed.

I'm right there with this brother, and those here who support his views.

As with many of you, I've trained my daughter with respect to gun-safety. And I know that my daughter, as a person, is unable to violate those rules that I've given to her as "Commandments."

Nevetheless, she is a child. Children are not fully wired yet, not like adults are - and things can and will go wrong, intentional or not.

I'm Chinese, and we have a saying: that it's the greatest curse of the Gods to outlive one's child.

I firmly believe that to be a universal truth.

That's why I take the measures I do, in the storage of my home-defense firearms. Yes, it's slower, and that may well be a compromise that becomes our undoing, when the God-Forbid does happen. But it's a compromise that I, as a unique individual - a well-reasoning adult - have made for myself, and am comfortable with.

As wives/husbands and parents, this is our responsibility to bear, and we each must find our own level of comfort.

With that said, to help the OP:

Originally Posted by adric22

A few nights ago I got to find out exactly how long it would take to get my gun. I heard a crash in the middle of the night, sprang out of bed, opened the dresser drawer, ran my finger across the sensor twice, finally opened....

What if the battery/power failed? What if it still didn't open?

I use a GunVault, with the combination lock (not biometric). I have drilled many times with the setup, and along with those drills are failure drills - where I actually use the backup key (which I've hidden in a way that my 5 and 1/2 year-old daughter is *physically* unable to obtain the item). In doing these key-drills, I discovered that my initial hiding-place made it possible for me to actually "lose" the key in a manner that would cause tremendous delay...something I knew that I would not have wanted to find out, in a real emergency.

So whatever you do decide to do, have a backup plan, and also drill for it.

Also....

Second of all, I am keeping the gun chambered, that reduces an extra step.

Last, I am no longer keeping the gun in its holster. That has been an old habbit of mine, so that in the morning I just grab the holster with the gun already in it. But I realized it ads several seconds to get the gun out of the holster. So I'm not doing that anymore.

I currently keep all of my HD firearms in "Condition I" - I switched to this from "Condition III" (yes, everything is still locked up, this is "inside the quick-access safe" storage "Condition") after my daughter demonstrated, spontaneously, the knowledge of actions required to insure that a firearm is clear and safe - but all handguns are in holsters.

I never stray from this rule - and so it's the same whether the gun is on my body or resting in a safe. If it has a holster, it's ready-to-rock as soon as it clears the holster.

Also, the holster helps protect the trigger: particularly important on many of today's striker-fired pistols, and doubly so if you're waking up in the wee-hours of the night, confused and blurry-eyed yet already jacked-up on adrenaline. You don't want that grab into your safe to cause a ND.

I started my daughter at around 2 and 1/2, when she started showing interest.

Just keep it appropriate to the capabilities of your child - remembering that every child is unique - and you'll do fine. And tailor the lesson to suit how he or she learns best.

My daughter, at 2 and 1/2, as an example:

- I simply told her that she must NEVER touch anything that even remotely looks like a gun, without me present.
- I told her that this was a RULE.

The former was suited to her level of processing, at that age.

The latter again was tailored specifically to her: she's one of those kids who would never, ever, knowingly break a "RULE." You can literally give her two conflicting rules, and watch her self-destruct, right there in front of you. So this was a guaranty - in so much as that's worth - that she will obey, to the best of her capabilities.

I sleep with a properly holstered firearm under my body pillow that I lean on while I sleep (pointed away, towards an outside wall). When I am awake, my firearm is on me and the ones not being carried are locked in a safe. There is no way that my kids (9 and 2) could get me off the pillow to access my firearm without waking me up. My cat walking down the hall wakes me up at night. I have considered some type of holster mounted at the top of the bed between the headboard and matress right behind my pillow.

adric22 I'm not sure what kind of new biometric safe you're considering but I just wanted to say I'm currently in the process of looking for one as I want to purchase my first handgun. I found this one on amazon and it seems to be pretty good. It doesn't have a tone of features and aside from the annoying beep it makes when you open it I think for the price point, it can't be beat (from what I've found thus far).