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When we talk about good ways to use the body here on AikiWeb, we often hear all kinds of different ideas. Some people (like me) say that the best ideas and examples come from modern athletics. Some people say that the human body can do things that most athletic trainers had no idea about. I would like to open up a discussion, and see if we can hash some of these things out so that we can better share our ideas about what is going on inside of the body.

Here is a diagram I made that shows a simple mechanical example of "alignment".

(Click to enlarge)

The "Unaligned support" diagram shows how downward force acts when someone is holding their arm out. Because the load (10kg weight) is at the end of the lever, the muscles located at the fulcrum (shoulder muscles) must work very hard to support the load. Next to this we see the "Aligned support" diagram, and what happens when we bring the load into "alignment" with our body. The lever arm gets shorter, thus making the muscles around the fulcrum, work much less. The Shorter we can make the lever length, the less force we will have at our fulcrum, if we make the lever length "0", then we will no longer have a fulcrum at all, this will give us perfect alignment. When this alignment is achieved the natural structure of the body bears the load, and no one particular group of muscles of over worked.

Because we have aligned the structure of our bodies with the load, we have less work to do at any one spot. This I believe is the basic idea of "ground path". However there is a price for this. We cannot align our bodies in every direction at once. We have to configure our bodies in the direction of the force, and line that up with the ground in order to do this. Because it requires special alignment between the load and the ground, we will naturally not have this alignment in all directions at once.

This is a simple idea of how alignment works. I know that in the "IP/IS/IT" community there are other ideas about how to solve this problem. One of the ideas is, I believe, is based on "pressure". I would like to talk about these ideas, and create different models to show how the ideas work.

Unless I'm interpreting it incorrectly, Sigman's balloon man model doesn't really care about the joints... so for all intents and purposes, in the IS model there is no fulcrum... only control unit(s) which is/are the dantien(s). The absence/elimination of fulcrums in the IS models is what enables "jin everywhere all the time" (what you're calling groundpath in all directions). This is presumably also why posture and alignment ultimately don't actually matter in the forming and maintaining of groundpath, since a balloon man by definition has nothing to align.

In fact, one might argue that the purpose of relaxation is exactly this -- to eliminate the presence/effect of these "fulcrums" in the body and to create a body that is wholly connected. Local tension at any point creates a fulcrum (and thus a point of weakness/reliance as illustrated in your diagram), regardless of whether it occurs at a joint or not.

Because we have aligned the structure of our bodies with the load, we have less work to do at any one spot. This I believe is the basic idea of "ground path". However there is a price for this. We cannot align our bodies in every direction at once. We have to configure our bodies in the direction of the force, and line that up with the ground in order to do this. Because it requires special alignment between the load and the ground, we will naturally not have this alignment in all directions at once.

This is a simple idea of how alignment works. I know that in the "IP/IS/IT" community there are other ideas about how to solve this problem. One of the ideas is, I believe, is based on "pressure". I would like to talk about these ideas, and create different models to show how the ideas work.

Thanks!

Simply aligning a load over your frame doesn't make it a ground path. It might be efficient body usage, but it's not necessarily ground path. Ground path also does not require alignment or require that the force/load be delivered in one specific direction. See Ueshiba's jo trick as an example of this. FWIW, you can also hold that weight as indicated in your unaligned support image with the ground.

Chris, your artistry is far better than mine, so I assume you don't mind that I modified your drawing.

I focused on the first drawing because it follows into how I would actually use the "alignment" shown in the second one instead of passively letting the load through the body.

In the first model of my diagram, which I refer to as the normal/external model, the person uses the shoulder and maybe some bicep/forearm muscle to deal with the load. If they are more skilled, they can recruit the muscles of the back to support it as well. They are unable to access the ground through structure as the lever arm/combined with the weight would "pull" them towards the weight. This may result in some tension as they shift away or "pull away" from the weight to compensate for the load.

In the second model, which I dubbed the internal model, which is a VERY simplified model, something significantly different is going on. The red path is still there, but there is an additional blue path. This blue path is a couple of things integrated together which I shall go over, but it is important to note that the blue path becomes the red path (it would be easier to show sideways) and the red path becomes the blue path.

Also, since I annotated it quickly, I only really showed the paths in the upper portion of the body, though this simplifies things too.

Inside/front generally refers to the underside of the arms, inside of the legs, the front of the torso. Outside/back/ generally refers to the backside of the body tops of the arm with the biceps, shoulders, outside of the quads etc. This is just a general not specific reference to a hard ruleset as we are talking about a very simplified model.

The red path is much the same, where the weight is delivered down the back, though into the ground and sort of pulls away from the weight. The blue path however can be considered the red path reflecting off the ground and coming up coupled with several other things. They mix together and augment one another.

The blue path is also supporting from underneath. The easiest/initial way to think of this is extending/stretching outwards. One should be able to feel the triceps, the area under the armpit etc, stretch outwards (its easier to feel with muscles at first and switch to suit later on). This path/stretch goes out towards the load, rather than away from it. This path (though not discussing how to actually do it) is what causes the load to be held from underneath, rather than on top. It is part of what allows you to integrate the weight into you. This is some of what Phi was indirectly referring to in the other thread. If you work on this you will find you take the shoulders out of a lot of things and start recruiting more of the front side. You then learn there are only really certain ways you can move to maintain that blue/inside/front path.

When you use this blue path to support the weight, in conjunction with the red one, now you can access your structure/alignment whereas it would be far more difficult to do with the red one alone. This is not a requirement, though, you could use the suit to transmit the loads, without relying on any particular skeletal structure or alignment. You could then consider this to be part of "blue" path as well.

For most people the red path in terms of support for a load, is highly developed, but the blue path (forget about it being a ground path, I'm referring to the stretching/suit/integration components) is not thus it completely overpowers the blue, or a person is unaware of any of the blue type paths. The red and blue work in concert, one does not overpower the other.

Note: I'm not referring to the middle/hips etc as this is a very very simplified model.

Unless I'm interpreting it incorrectly, Sigman's balloon man model doesn't really care about the joints... so for all intents and purposes, in the IS model there is no fulcrum... only control unit(s) which is/are the dantien(s). The absence/elimination of fulcrums in the IS models is what enables "jin everywhere all the time" (what you're calling groundpath in all directions). This is presumably also why posture and alignment ultimately don't actually matter in the forming and maintaining of groundpath, since a balloon man by definition has nothing to align.

So the basic idea of the "balloon man" model is that the whole body is 'pressurized'. This means that all of the joints are equally filled with a pressure, which enables the muscles of a stressed joint to relax instead of work, because the pressure is taking the load. Is this correct?

My first question with this is, what's making the 'pressure'? Is it air pressure? Is it hydraulic type pressure?

What is inside of the body that can be 'pressurized' evenly throughout? Is it blood or some other body fluid?

What is 'pressurizing' the medium that we are adding pressure to? Is it the muscles of the core- the dantien?

What is 'pressurizing' the medium that we are adding pressure to? Is it the muscles of the core- the dantien?

Chris, that is a good question. I don't think anyone has definitive scientific proof as to what that medium actually is.

People tend to think it might be the fascia as where it is present seems to overlap which what the Chinese traditional models point too (for example absence at the throat/anus/mouth). I have a hard time believing that various breath exercises would condition muscles or skin in the limbs, yet when you work on the pressure aspect, you feel this pressurization in the limbs as well as the torso.

While I do think that there is a mental process component that interprets these sensations from breath/pressurization conditioning, something in the body is likely to be changing as well. What that physiological component actually is, I'm not terribly concerned over as it doesn't effect my actual training. It certainly would be nice to know though.

I don't believe Mike Sigman refers to the joints themselves as being pressurized, though I believe Akuzawa sensei does refer to storing into them. Perhaps Rob or someone else can clarify what that actually means as I don't want to be tossing around buzzwords I don't understand.

My first question is, what makes up the 'blue path'? Is it other muscles firing from different angles? Is it an internal 'pressure'? What exactly makes up the 'blue path'?

Initially, you can try using muscle, later on its something else entirely. For a simple exercise, at your computer try this:

With your arm resting at your side, raise it up over your head.
Which muscles do you feel activating? For most people, myself included before I was shown this sort of thing, they will feel the top of the shoulder activating. This is the "top" or "back side" I was referring to.

Now try and see if you can use the triceps, and the area underneath the armpit while relaxing and not activating the shoulder. Imagine an inflatable bag is kept in your armpit. As it expands, the triceps and the front side under the armpit pull away from one another. You will feel a stretch build in intensity. This inflatable bag should work i such a way that it doesn't raise the shoulder overhead, but instead moves the arm outwards and upwards.

Now you might not be able to raise the arm all the way overhead, but you should be able to move that arm without using the shoulder.

By the way, this is part of what you should be doing in all that horse stance training various arts have. The shoulders will get far less fatigued, while the front side of the body gets fatigued, with areas progressively lower and lower on the body getting sore as you learn to bear the load until you reach "the middle".

As I detailed in my earlier post, there are 2 other components, but you won't be able to feel/use them until you can start using the front. What I am talking about here though is much more complex than the initial ground path model.

Now try and see if you can use the triceps, and the area underneath the armpit while relaxing and not activating the shoulder.

I've been trying this for a few minutes only, but I can't do it. I'm usually pretty good at figuring these things out, and I'll keep trying.

But by thinking about how my muscles work, I can't figure out how I can raise my arm like this, and not activate the shoulder. Because muscles only contract, I can't figure out how the muscles below my arm can raise my arm. When holding weight, I can activate my lat for more support, but there is no doubt, when I try it, that my shoulder has to activate.

Can you (or anyone) make a video of this, so we can see the shoulder muscles? If I touch my shoulder, I keep feeling it activate when I raise my arm.

I don't know that I would say that, but that's beyond my pay grade to be honest. My initial thought would be that no, it's not, but I don't think it's being stronger in a force on force sort of way. It's about how you can feel and work with forces differently compared to typical muscle usage. It has a unique feeling to it that I can't describe in words, but once you feel it I think it stands out.

It seems to me that quite a few people feel far too comfortable describing things that they cannot do, or at least cannot do confidently or with any real understanding.

This makes me wonder. . .

Hunter,

I'm waiting for the videos. I have always found you to be one of, if not, the most forth coming of the so-called "IP/IT/IS" guys here on AikiWeb, but, that said, I seem to remember you failing to produce videos in the past.

No one is questioning whether the skills described as "IP/IT/IS" exist. We are questioning what exactly is the nature of those skills, and why people are so reluctant to demonstrate them.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

I think there is a lot going on in O sensei's jo trick. I have been working with it for years. This year I learned how to do an exact duplicate of what I have seen him do in one of his video's. I think he is demonstrating an awesome physical/phycological principle, but not the one assumed by many people.

Hi Chris, all
A few things to cogitate
Gravity acts on every mass component in the diagram and so the gravity vector under the body is potentially misleading, you might like to consider it as a resultant force vector on the ground that can have a direction other than vertical, or separate out the load onto each of the feet, in doing so there is a kind of fulcrum effect. Where the net vector falls outside the base of support a fall starts (thing this you have talked about earlier though)

The feeding back from the ground Hunter alludes to is the ground reaction force and its direction can be varied and infinite (to the limit of the structure that propagates it) which is very cool I think!

Static loads are a good place to start and interesting but where it gets really interesting is exploiting this analysis not only in nage but also in uke to ensure maximum effect.

I wonder/suspect if the coiling/winding/reeling/spirals are part of the methods of tightening up structure to be able to propagate and direct the forces

look forward to the next versions and where your heading
dan

PS FWIW on the subject of the jo trick, I heard from one O'Sensei's deshi that he was asked to pull back on the other end of the jo. be interested to hear more on the replicating of it - have some limited success on a single outstretched arm

Hunter has provided lots of good info for the discussion. most folks when they picked up something they are thinking of pulling it up, especially something light. internal folks train to get underneath and push it up, even with a feather. and we already talked about efficiency on the other thread.

here is an exercise that Sigman got us to do. stand normally with feet parallel about shoulder width. take a small weight, less than 1 kg. hold it in between your palms and raise it with arms straight, straight up the top of your head. hold it there. now relax your body and let the weight pushes down to your feet so that you will only feel the weight pressure on your palms and the bottom of your feet. you should feel like you are now holding the weight by pushing from underneath (pushing isn't the right word to use here, but for simplicity, i am using it). hold it there for awhile and try to let go off your shoulder muscles.

now, drop your arms (still straight out) 45 degree from vertical. the weight should be infront of you and above your shoulders. don't move the rest of your body, but use your intent to adjust your body so that you still pushing it from underneath and there would still be pressure between the palms and the bottom of your feet, i.e. your body doesn't exist, only palms and feet. then drop your arms to 90 degree from vertical. do the same thing as before. allow your body to adjust. then drop to 135 degree from vertical. then 180 from vertical which at this point the weight should be around your crotch. and you are still pushing from underneath. it should feel like you are pushing the thing up with your feet. this is bringing the ground to the object or a simple model of ground path. experts will tell you that there are more it than that and they are right. because your focus is pushing from underneath, your body will microscopically adjust internally to use the blue line (don't think of line but tubes) that Hunter mentioned.

it's a simple exercise from Sigman, but it has some profound implication. so now, the question is why? why would we want to do that? ask a judo person, what would he/she/it give for the ability to get underneath the other person, without physically squatting down beneath the other person, with just a mind focus intent and the other person won't feel it or realize that you are underneath them? i am thinking first born, second born, possibly spouse, but not the dog since you can't just give up your best friend. this little exercise related to the SJT "sink the qi" or my terms "get underneath". btw, you need to use very light weight for a long period of time, months (took me over a year and still finding more interesting stuffs to it), to allow your body to reorganize itself for optimal ground path.

There is an opposite exercise which i called "getting on top", i.e. the ability to put your weight on top another person without physically changing your posture. after that then another exercise where you do "get underneath" then switch to "getting on top" which just a switch in your intention without moving your physical posture.

i can provide a video but you would only see my good looking self stand there not doing much. i might eat a donut or two with coffee.

It seems to me that quite a few people feel far too comfortable describing things that they cannot do, or at least cannot do confidently or with any real understanding.

This makes me wonder. . .
.

they can, to certain degree, but they are being modest. they have seen what the experts can do. think of kyu rank versus shihan (most shihan don't post online). you have some of the experts like Sigman, Dan, Ark (Rob John really did the posting), Howie, and so on posted here now and then. even they will say there are folks above them. in asia, there is a saying "there are mountains higher than mountains, trees higher than trees". so even the experts will say they don't know much, up until they kick your ass to kingdom come. i had that happen to me many times in my martial arts adventure. thus, i would only be modest to say that i am a god gift to IP.

But by thinking about how my muscles work, I can't figure out how I can raise my arm like this, and not activate the shoulder. Because muscles only contract, I can't figure out how the muscles below my arm can raise my arm. When holding weight, I can activate my lat for more support, but there is no doubt, when I try it, that my shoulder has to activate..

Both the standard body use of Ki Aikido and the Pilates teaching "go down to go up" teach this body usage.
The model I learned via aikido is to simply point at something the way you would when, well, when pointing at something . The ki test is to have your arm seized and simply point at something. The visualization or intent is that the shoulder and arm are still and relaxed and the finger simply extends and rises. The aikido model posits the triceps as doing the work.
The Pilates model is that to learn this, you first drop your shoulders and then you simple allow your arms to raise. The Pilates perspective is you are enlisting primarily the latissimus dorsi.
Using both models, I believe it is initiating gross movement w/ the lats and secondarily maintaining extension via the triceps.

In and of itself this is not what I'd call "internal training" but it is certainly what I'd call "best use" body mechanics. And it is a very good way of beginning to understand the connection between intent and efficient body usage.

(note: when talking about dropping shoulders: the commonest model is to feel like you are pushing them down from above. If you know how to isolate the tiny muscles at the lowest part of the scapula, you engage them and literally pull the shoulders down into the core - I can teach this IRL via touch the way it was taught to me, but cannot possibly do it w/ words or pictures because I think for most of us the muscle itself must be touched for the person to go OH, that...that can move?)

It seems to me that quite a few people feel far too comfortable describing things that they cannot do, or at least cannot do confidently or with any real understanding.

This makes me wonder. . .

Hunter,

I'm waiting for the videos. I have always found you to be one of, if not, the most forth coming of the so-called "IP/IT/IS" guys here on AikiWeb, but, that said, I seem to remember you failing to produce videos in the past.

No one is questioning whether the skills described as "IP/IT/IS" exist. We are questioning what exactly is the nature of those skills, and why people are so reluctant to demonstrate them.

For much of this material, I doubt most people without direct experience are going to be able to see whats going on. Thus I don't see too much point to video.

However, for this particular mechanic, what I'm referring to can be done in an internal way, but the following video, is more done in a "precursor" way. That is to say, I am still using muscle to raise the shoulder/arm, just not relying on the shoulder. Eventually, you don't want to rely on muscle so much, but use Sigman's suit. Thus I would not call this demo an "internal" arm raise, rather one with passibly good mechanics. Even now, when demonstrating this, you will see my body moving in certain ways, but don't talk about in the video other parts of my body being tugged as that arm raises.

Of course, most of you watching this don't really know what I actually feel, or where I experience tension. That being said, with the black on white background, you should be able to see the position of my shoulder to some degree and how much the traps and delts "rise" in the various raises.

1) The first way I lift is BAD. Anyone who has some martial arts experience or done some weight lifting knows why. I'm leading with the shoulder, and you will see the shoulder raise up and the trapesius raise up as well. I feel the load in the deltoids and traps. If you ever lug your groceries around and notice your shoulders raising up, drop them.

This is not a good way to use your shoulders (unless you are doing shoulder shrugs).

2) This is the way I find most people raise their arm. They don't lead with the shoulder, but the delt and traps still rise up and you feel the load in these muscles. There is less direct load in the shoulder.

------

For the next two, you will notice that my right shoulder is markedly lower than the left. I'm not really activating and pushing the shoulder down here, but I still see stuff I am doing wrong on video (probably because I'm talking rather than focusing on what I'm doing). The fact that the right is lower than the left is a tip off that it is relaxed. I don't however really use the elbow properly (though you may notice a different orientation than in 1-2), nor do I have the shoulder attached properly to the body. I will try taking another video later without talking to give a better demo.

3) What I am doing here, is not only using the inflated bag idea, where the triceps pull away from the arm pit area. I'm doing this by trying to have the arm pull down all the time, rather than focus on raising from the top part of the arm. I really, really hesitate to call this actual internal practice as I'm still using localized muscle, just different localized muscle. You will find that by pulling that arm down, you reach a point where it will no longer pull any further straight down, but starts to extend outwards. You will also notice that unlike 1 and 2, my upper body opens out, stretching across the chest. It looks more like a scooping motion.

4) For this one, my camera ran out of memory, I probably talked for another minute. Anyways, I'm doing something similar to #3, though my shoulder is more "opened up" and I'm focusing a bit more on extending/projecting from the elbow than from the fingertips. The elbow is still going down to go up. I'm not telling myself to lean away to counterweight. It just comes as a natural consequence of the elbow extension that my legs/hips move of their own accord, as a result of maintaining that shoulder connection. I feel a lot more of a float/expansion.

#4 still needs a lot more work. Anyways, this is a pretty low level skill, and I'm not using suit in these demos at all.If someone grabbed onto my arm in 3-4, they would feel the expansion and direction outwards along a big arc instead of a force on force clash like in 1-2. 3-4 feel more "overwhelming" than clashing. I think more skilled people out there are going to see what I'm doing wrong here.