Posted
by
timothy
on Monday July 01, 2013 @08:02AM
from the bugging-is-the-polite-word dept.

dryriver writes with this excerpt from the Guardian: "U.S. intelligence services are spying on the European Union mission in New York and its embassy in Washington, according to the latest top secret U.S. National Security Agency documents leaked by the whistleblower Edward Snowden. One document lists 38 embassies and missions, describing them as 'targets.' It details an extraordinary range of spying methods used against each target, from bugs implanted in electronic communications gear to taps into cables to the collection of transmissions with specialised antennae. Along with traditional ideological adversaries and sensitive Middle Eastern countries, the list of targets includes the E.U. missions and the French, Italian and Greek embassies, as well as a number of other American allies, including Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey. ... One of the bugging methods mentioned is codenamed Dropmire, which, according to a 2007 document, is 'implanted on the Cryptofax at the E.U. embassy, DC' – an apparent reference to a bug placed in a commercially available encrypted fax machine used at the mission. The NSA documents note the machine is used to send cables back to foreign affairs ministries in European capitals."

We know countries spy on each other for political capital and leverage, even allies. They embarrass leaders they don't like with smears and leaks. The give opposition leaders they do like, intel and tips. Trying to influence elections, trying to learn trade secret that aid their corps.

It's a nasty game, but it's a known game.

So WTF is GCHQ doing, giving NSA a tap on 300 lines into Britain, which almost certainly contains information on British people, companies and politics?

The GCHQ ran out of next gen 'tech' cash in ~1960's. They traded the Empire (old bases world wide) for new US super computers and raw feeds.
GCHQ is on the side that can give it the best tools to keep the Soviets and French out - at this time the USA.
British people, companies and politics are of no interest to the GCHQ - its all just product that has to reach the US interconnects per hour.
If they fail at that one task the ghost of 1970's Diego Garcia could haunt the UK gov again with a nice term the US h

So WTF is GCHQ doing, giving NSA a tap on 300 lines into Britain, which almost certainly contains information on British people, companies and politics?

The GCHQ gives NSA the ability to spy on British citizens, so that the NSA will give the GCHQ the ability to spy on US citizens. Then they exchange the data. Since no one was spying on their own citizens, no laws were broken, right?

Economic gain, can in theory and after payment of taxes be used to finance the war on terror. A rather tenuous link but you may well be able to advertise and trumpet the magnitude of any Pork barrel heading towards your favoured state or district.

There is obviously some expectation of privacy in diplomacy, e.g. Diplomatic baggage is still treated as sealed. But obviously the US considers everything else to be completely fair game, including crypto-protected messaging. Hardly seems like playing according to the spirit of the rules. So, yes, it is plain and simple espionage against allies. This is surely not going down well in Europe.

yes re economic gain try back in 1972:http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-elint.htm [cryptome.org]
"but most of us, me included, did some kind of smuggling on the side. Everything form small-time black marketeering of cigarettes or currency all the way up to transportation of vehicles, refrigerators, that sort of thing. One time in Europe I knew of a couple of people inside NSA who were stationed in Frankfurt and got involved in the white slave trade. Can you believe that? They were transporting women who'd been kidnapped from

So how does this relate to "war on terrorism"? This is plain and simple espionage, most probably for economic gain.

You may not believe me, and I can't "prove" it, but the War on Terror is a sham. It is a cover for expanding US power and influence around the globe and here at home as well. It is, as Zbigniew Brzezinski calls it, a mythical historical narrative. It is designed to create a focus for the fear and aggression of the population, enabling the powers that be to manipulate that fear into acceptance of whatever measures they claim they need to put in place to counter the external threat. It is classic use of t

"Friends spying on friends" is not something new and unusual, despite what at least 1 German politician implied. The US has arrested Israeli spies in decades past. Israel has arrested US spies. It may be deplorable, but it's universal. Raising a ruckus about it is just a sideshow.

Snowden apparently originally thought that this was part of his job and was OK with it. What allegedly turned him was when he realized that a lot of what he was doing was unrelated to spying on other nations, other nationals and terrorists, but was spying on US citizens even when there was absolutely no reason to think they were doing anything worth spying on.

...of where you fall in the political spectrum, I think that everyone can agree that, as of late, the Administration has been exceptionally sloppy, amateurish, and far too invasive (due to sheer laziness).

it's not unusual as such.. it's just extremely nasty get caught doing so just for some advantage in economical discussions.

it's not a sideshow as such. because, you know you would easily believe that Finland for example wasn't bugging the american embassy for the same purpose. so friends spying on friends flies flat on it's hypocratic shitface right there. it makes harder for us to believe in fair negotiations, which is going to pretty much mean just going for harsher advantage over the us than otherwise if

Everything the US has been accusing China of doing like sticking backdoors in communications equipment, the US has been doing it it's allies?

So much for don't buy Chinese, sounds like it's more risky to buy US equipment because at least there's now some hard evidence that US equipment contains backdoors, with China it was all just unproven speculation.

China already has nukes but I think you missed the GP's point, why would China even care about the US' nuclear technology when there's no need to use them? The GP's point was that China is more interested in growing it's economy than anything else, whilst the US seems busy both destroying it's long term economic prospects by building the largest mountain of debt known to man and spending trillions on wars that make literally no difference at the end of the day and by destroying all international credibility past generations of American leaders had worked so hard to build up.

Or in other words, China doesn't need to steal American nuke plans because America is already very busy destroying itself without any weaponry even being required. It's already thrown away all pretences of liberty and justice that were at the supposed core of what America once stood proudly for by doing things like Guantanamo bay, torture and extraordinary rendition. The fabric of what made America great is already well torn and it's busy rushing down a path that will, if it continues, destroy it completely.

I think we can all distinguish between spying on one's own citizens and spying on foreigners, in particular in foreign lands. That of course includes governments. Normally this kind of stuff stays under the radar, but this is not the first time it has happened. Israel has been caught quite a few times spying on the US and running agents to further their own national interests. France has a long history of doing corporate espionage on behalf of their own industries. The Brits have always had their fingers in everything.

Spying isn't just about military stuff. It is often about economics and politics and knowing what others are planning and doing (vs what they might say publicly).

I just cannot believe it! Countries around the world spy on each other?? What a remarkable revelation, who would'a thought?. Perhaps next we'll find out that corporations act in their greedy self interest or that middle school girls are catty. Thank you Edward Snowden for making the f*ing obvious even more obvious!

STEPHANOPOULOS: But these surveillance programs, as the president has pointed out, were passed by the Congress, are overseen by a court.

RADACK: Well, both of those are incorrect. Congress has not been fully informed. Only the--

STEPHANOPOULOS: They passed the laws, there is oversight, or there is (inaudible).

RADACK: OK, but there is a secret interpretation of Section 215 of the Patriot Act, which nobody knows, except for the Intel Committee of Congress, and even they say that they think most Americans would be appalled by that. And to say that it’s been approved by the courts is a misnomer, because it gives the impression that federal courts have approved this, when in reality, it’s the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has rubber-stamped every single--

STEPHANOPOULOS: Which is a federal court.

RADACK: No, it is a secret court set up at the Justice Department that has federal judges on it. But last year, it approved 2,000 out of 2,000 applications. They hear only the government’s side, and they have never -- they have rejected an application one time since 1978.

No offense to you, but the person you are quoting, "RADACK," is a nitwit. The FISA court is a federal court that deals with secret material, not a secret court. Issuing search warrants is not an adversarial process to begin with, and wouldn't be at any other court. There is more.

Michael Mukasey, who was attorney general under President George W. Bush, said in an interview that the lack of rejections by the FISA court doesn't mean the court is a rubber stamp. He notes the court sometimes modifies orders and that the Justice Department's national-security division is careful about the applications it presents to the court.

Of 1,856 FISA applications the Justice Department made in 2012, the court denied none but modified 40, the Justice Department reported.

Timothy Edgar, who was a top lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, said he believed the FISA court was a rubber stamp until he saw the process firsthand when he became a senior civil-liberties official in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence in 2006. "It's definitely not a rubber stamp," he said in an interview Sunday. "On a very superficial level, they tend to approve pretty much everything that comes before them. They do meet in secret. It's just more complicated than that."

The reason so many orders are approved, he said, is that the Justice Department office that manages the process vets the applications rigorously. The lawyers there see themselves not as government advocates so much as neutral arbiters of the law between the executive branch and the courts, he said, so getting the order approved by the Justice Department lawyers is perhaps the biggest hurdle to approval. "The culture of that office is very reluctant to get a denial," he said.-- more [wsj.com]

It's pretty informative to see all the AC posts in this thread... what is everyone afraid of?!?

Oh, wait... the NSA is watching and listening.

Seriously folks, this is BS and needs to stop. The US govt via the NSA should NOT be performing this level of spying on trusted allies or US citizens not suspected of any wrongdoing. As an American living in the EU, it makes me sick that my home country is engaged in this activity.

I'm a staunch supporter of Snowden's revealing how the NSA was violating the 4th Amendment, but it's a shame that he's now revealing stuff like this. It will weaken the outrage over the US government wiping its ass w/ the Bill of Rights, because people will say that now he is endangering national security by revealing this information. He is shooting himself in the foot. TPTB will also have more justification for going after him. Having access to secret information beyond what is necessary for making his original case about spying on US citizens makes him less secure, not more. It also lessens the sympathy he'll get from Americans.

P.S. The latest "revelations" don't shock me, I doubt they shock TPTB in other countries, and the only effect on foreign relations will be the usual faux outrage. It doesn't bother me that the NSA is doing this, in fact I'd be more upset (or at least surprised) if they weren't. I also don't think it will do much if anything to harm national security, but he's still playing it wrong.

Agreed. I think that Snowden hurts his own credibility and his self-professed cause by spilling out all the details of United States espionage activities overseas. Had Snowden had a compelling whistleblower case by simply reporting on US domestic spying; many would view him as a patriot (as he self-proclaimed) for reporting on these abuses. However, muddies the water tremendously, I would even argue crosses the line, by providing details of US intelligence activities overseas, not just to the European Union but also to the Chinese and the Russians. Those actions directly harming his home country, undermining American intelligence activities against nations that have comprehensive espionage programs targeted at the United States (this includes European nations).

The journalist and author Naomi Wolf has been wondering for some time [naomiwolf.org] if he's a "false flag". She raises a number of interesting points, and has cred when it comes to whistleblower issues. He may very well be the real deal... but in any case this issue is bigger than anyones heroics and faults. Dirty political tricks WILL be employed if anyones power is at stake.

I'm posting again because I was modded up, then down earlier. I'm smiling right now at my own paranoia.

Her suspicions don't seem off-the-wall. To her credit she only says she's suspicious, not that she's anywhere near certain. I feel similarly. It's probably not true, but it is a possibility to keep in mind.

Agreed. I think that Snowden hurts his own credibility and his self-professed cause by spilling out all the details of United States espionage activities overseas. Had Snowden had a compelling whistleblower case by simply reporting on US domestic spying; many would view him as a patriot (as he self-proclaimed) for reporting on these abuses. However, muddies the water tremendously, I would even argue crosses the line, by providing details of US intelligence activities overseas, not just to the European Union but also to the Chinese and the Russians. Those actions directly harming his home country, undermining American intelligence activities against nations that have comprehensive espionage programs targeted at the United States (this includes European nations).

So what you, and the parent poster, are basically saying is that if US citizens are being targeted then that's a moral outrage and wholly unacceptable; but the rest of us are fair game.

See, that's a major part of the problem. I know that many Americans think that God appointed the US to be the world's policeman, and therefore they have some kind of divine right to meddle in the everybody' affairs. But, back in the real world, those of us who live in other democratic sovereign states quite rightly regard t

I'm a staunch supporter of Snowden's revealing how the NSA was violating the 4th Amendment, but it's a shame that he's now revealing stuff like this. It will weaken the outrage over the US government wiping its ass w/ the Bill of Rights, because people will say that now he is endangering national security by revealing this information. He is shooting himself in the foot. TPTB will also have more justification for going after him. Having access to secret information beyond what is necessary for making his original case about spying on US citizens makes him less secure, not more. It also lessens the sympathy he'll get from Americans.

P.S. The latest "revelations" don't shock me, I doubt they shock TPTB in other countries, and the only effect on foreign relations will be the usual faux outrage. It doesn't bother me that the NSA is doing this, in fact I'd be more upset (or at least surprised) if they weren't. I also don't think it will do much if anything to harm national security, but he's still playing it wrong.

well it sure gets sympathy from all the rest of the world... so we're the great terrorist nation of Finland now in the axis of evil with Germany and Italy? me thinks they should advance their calendars by couple of decades(also technically NSA isn't supposed to provide corporate espionage which this spying of EU just pretty much boils down to.. the joke is the profits are going to tax havens, so I suppose it's all good then eh..).

he's pretty much just showing that the USA gov. has pretty much just decided t

The main reason why KGB was way better was primarily the fact that a western agent could be bought with money, something that was more or less impossible in the east. Utilizing capital in the USSR was not the easies of things.

..to this lately, and most of them were in the "We are big, bad, mean motherfuckers so of course we do this and if you don't like it go fuck yourself or we nuke you" (paraphrased, not literally uttered.. even though nuclear weapons HAVE been mentioned once or twice in the discussion.. I think it was on gizmodo or some site like that..)

Guys, just turn around the situation and it would be China doing the same in the US.. wouldn't your outcry be as big as ours (German here), maybe even bigger?

Just because you have the biggest guns doesn't mean laws are not for you anymore, just as a reminder..

Also, having the biggest Aircraft Carrier in the block means nothing, if you actually would take on an opponent that can fight back.. (I've read up on a lot of NATO maneuvers where even our old diesel subs blatantly sunk US carriers and the commanders didn't even believe the sub commanders that they were there, until they surfaced like 500 feet away from the carrier in full broadside view of the torpedo tubes..)

Really, if you ask me, as a German with a strong national pride myself, the only political answer to this would be simple (and something our corrupt and incompetent government would NEVER do..): close all US bases on German soil, including Ramstein etc., remove every single American non-civilian personell from the country immediately..

and while we're at it consider if this constitutes an "armed" (as in cyber-warfare) attack against Germany (and our Allies) as based on NATO Article 5 (Casus foederis).

I wouldn't be surprised if individual member states are bugging each other routinely to obtain an advantage when it comes to trade talks, treaty agreements and all the rest. I wonder how the EU even manages to police that let alone develop its own pan-European security agency with which to counter international threats.

Everything that is "wrong" with the US today can explained by that 1947 incident. Afterall, war is good for business. Peace, of course, is good for business too. Afterall, even in the worst time someone makes a profit.

"Gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail." That's what Henry L. Stimson said in 1929 when he shut down the State Department's code breaking operations. Stimson was President Hoover's Secretary of State at the time.

The cameras installed in copy machines. [editinternational.com] I recall reading about this many years ago and IIRC it wasn't just soviet copy machines. But memory of the article is too faded. Spying is nothing new.

After 4 decades on this planet it still never ceases to surprise me that "everyone does it" or "everyone else is just as bad" still seems like a logical defense to some people.

Would raping little girls be okay if more people did it? If only it were more popular then none of us would have to feel bad about being a total piece of shit. The kind of person who does stuff like that does it because they don't care about the little girl that they are going to hurt or even kill. That other person, that other consciousness means nothing to them. Only their narrow interests matter. Sound familiar?

Pathological liars of all sorts are always adamant about how no one else is any different. "Everyone lies", they say. Dishonest salesmen and cops are the same. They defend their bad behavior by saying that everyone else is just as bad. Uh huh. As soon as I hear someone say that sort of thing I immediately know not to trust them or believe a word they say. And I'll keep a close eye on my wallet and all my other possessions as well. There's a good chance they lack any sense of empathy, of right or wrong: what we call a conscience.

Well I've got news for some of you. Not everyone will lie and steal even from their so called friends whenever they think they can get away with it. I have known a few pathological liars in my life and as soon as I discovered who and what they really were I broke off any contact with them. Period.

I wouldn't be friends with someone who planted bugs in my home. In fact I would consider them the opposite of friends. They wouldn't be welcome anywhere near my home ever again. It would be pretty clear that their intentions were not good. If I were one of the countries mentioned in these leaks I would immediately break off all diplomatic relations with the US. I mean, what the fuck is the point when it's obvious you are being treated in a manner indistinguishable from how one treats an enemy? At the very least it would seem sensible to strip search and cavity search anyone carrying a US passport who wants to enter or leave an embassy/consulate or any other sensitive location. Are you quasi-sociopaths starting to see the problem now?

And how does one draw the line between just being naughty and an act of outright war? Seems like that line could be drawn very finely indeed. If in our eavesdropping we discover that a foreign diplomat holds beliefs that seem inimical to our interests would it be okay to assassinate them? How about just fucking up their life so badly that they choose to quit their jobs? Maybe infecting one of their children with HIV for instance? After all, what is the point of making so much effort to gather all that intelligence data if we do not use it to further our interests? Isn't that what this is all about? Our interests? Aside from "everyone else is doing it", that is the justification for this behavior is it not? Of course it couldn't possibly be in our interest to treat our allies like we ourselves would want to be treated: with respect and honesty. No. So much better to prepare for outright war even with such highly unlikely foes as, say, Canada.

Espionage is fine when you are in a shooting war with someone and it's tolerable when it seems that a shooting war is imminent, but it is neither honorable nor civilized behavior. Not even if you have proof that the other side is doing the same to you, which I don't think any of you currently have by the way.

I'm sorry, but just assuming that everyone else is just as amoral and dishonest and untrustworthy and two-faced and is also treating us in a way that is indistinguishable from an enemy is not sufficient. Not if we want to be seen as the good guys. Clearly any such pretense would be laughable now. The enemy is us. We are the baddies.

Even if we knew with absolute 100% certainty that all of the people we were bugging were bugging us back just as successfully the old two wrongs don't make a right rule still applies. If we discovered that one of our allies were systematically raping our female diplomats would we respond in kind? I would certainly hope not.

If spying on US citizens is wrong then spying on foreign citizens is just as wrong. It's as simple as that. I disagree with your assertion that what is wrong for one human being to do to another is suddenly okay when it is a group of human beings (a government) instead. You may not personally believe there would be anything ethically wrong with my planting surveillance devices in your home, but at the very least it is a sneaky, dishonorable act. Certainly not something one would be proud of doing.

Angela Merkel comes off looking like a real asshole, IMO. When it came out that the US was spying on US and German citizens, she defended it as necessary for the war on terror. Then she finds out we're spying on her fellow oligarchs and all of a sudden it's an unjustifiable violation of trust.

Someone doesn't realize that embassies are foreign soil. You clearly are assuming that what they are doing is illegal and not sanctioned under national security. See, you are just making an ass out of yourself and YOU KNOW IT or you wouldn't be posting as an anonymous coward.

Well, if the US laws do not apply there, maybe the laws from the country represented by the embassies apply there? And what if it is illegal under these laws? Have you thought about this for a second?

And obviously, the surveillance was performed outside of the embassies walls as well.Stop trying to pat yourself on the shoulder and find excuses. Any way you look at it, illegal or unconstitutional acts have been made.

And give me a break with your sanctioned under national security. Some of it may be, but a lo

So you think that there aren't going to be any consequences for this? Fool.

With great power comes great responsibility, but you sound more like the local schoolyard bully - and that's exactly how the US has been coming across for years. Looks like the rest of the world finally figured out who they are dealing with.

As a Citizen of the USA, I believe we DO need a swift kick in the balls from the rest of the world. The Citizens need to take part in this ball-crushing event too. The beast is too wild and needs to be tamed.

It's only illegal if it is against the law... You do realize that espionage is ALWAYS illegal in the country being spied on right? That doesn't make it illegal in the country doing the spying. It makes it a valid portion of the government's job. Spying has been a part of international relations since, well, when did people first make countries again? It isn't illegal and it isn't going to change any time soon. It's certainly not good for relations when it gets exposed, but everyone really is doing it. If you think that this is A) news or B) a valid leak that has any possible purpose than to hurt the US, then you are sadly ignorant of the realities of the intelligence community for the last forever.

It's only illegal if there are consequences for it, and if some authority can punish you for it.

Since the USA is the richest, mightiest, most powerful nation in the world, "legalities" are just a concept. There is a reason we are the only superpower on the planet. We can do whatever the fuck we want to you and you will take from us willingly.

That attitude is not sustainable. If you go dicking around with other countries long enough, it will come back to bite you. No country, or empire, is invincible.

Since the USA is the richest, mightiest, most powerful nation in the world, "legalities" are just a concept. There is a reason we are the only superpower on the planet. We can do whatever the fuck we want to you and you will take from us willingly.

This has to be a troll. But, considering our leaders... I'm not so sure.

Anyway, China will eventually stop buying our bonds. Then we're done. Google about Egypt, the Suez Canal, Great Britain, and how Eisenhower ended a war in Egypt before it really got rollin

Secondly: Just 'cause you don't hear about them doesn't mean there there aren't any of those happening. Try looking up the Dubrovka Theater, tell me there isn't terror in Russia.Thing is Russia and China just like to hush up stuff like this, makes it much easier to respond with insane force.

Most intelligence work is illegal by definition. The only question is whether the work is whether the US intelligence work breaks US laws. I envy your fairy tale worldview, but in the real world things work differently.

Most intelligence work is illegal by definition. The only question is whether the work is whether the US intelligence work breaks US laws. I envy your fairy tale worldview, but in the real world things work differently.

You're very right. And international law is just as strong as military or economic power. So it now depends on how straight the EU can hold its back, given the perspective of a diplomatic and economic war with the US, given the current EU crisis. Looking back at the past twenty or thirty years, there is not much hope for the EU. We (yes I'm EU citizen) will probably shout and scream out loud, the US will give us some trade benefits plus a lot of useful intelligence to show how good that PRISM stuff works. I

Except that espionage is considered and act of war and can be sufficient to actually stat a war. The reason why some nations get away with it, is that the cost of an actual war does not merit the incident.

International intelligence work is almost always illegal almost by definition. That's why it called intelligence work, as opposed to, say, Aunt Mary's Cookie Vending.

bullshit. you know what most international intelligence work is? living in the country 100% legally and reading the newspapers. what kind of spy would bother to run their own undercover polls about who is going to win the next presidency ? or exit polls?

Spoken like a true armchair hero. More importantly, this isn't about Snowden as a superhero. Look, it's a bird, it's a plane, no it's Super Snowden! In fact this isn't about Snowden at all, but about what he's released. Trying to turn this into a debate about Snowden is a person as a ridiculous distraction.

Not really, that's a construct that you probably picked up from Hollywood propaganda.

The truth is that things are rarely if ever that clear cut. Heroes in things like this tend to try to avoid being sent to prison as being in prison makes it easy for the government to stop them from making a scene. Whereas a very visible fight to get Snowden extradited back to the US has brought a ton of extra attention to the problem that he highlighted with the leak.

For one thing, other courties don't have 5 million people cleared to handle top secret material. That makes the chances of a leak smaller. For another, related, thing, those countries don't have a security apparatus as creepily and absurdly extensive as the US does, so the few involved don't feel a strong need to leak.

Also, other countries see this as a human rights issue that involves everybody instead of something that only becomes an issue when it affects their own citizens.

I can say this for Germany, but it probably applies to any sane Government. The BND does intelligence gathering that any private individual could, such as areal photos and driving by installations. Their main effort is centered around inferring information from what is "publicly" available. To actually infiltrate installations, the country in question must be at war with Germany.

The US has always cheeped me out. The level of paranoia is astonishing and I think it is a mere wonder that we came out of the cold war without any major incident.

Afterall he is only reporting what any 'responsible' government already knew and did......

Incredibly false. What he did was leak a bunch of documents in a very irresponsible manner. He could have chose to quit his job and go on to tell the American people they were being spied upon. That's been done at least three times before [eff.org]. But instead what he did was take a bunch of classified documents and release them to the press without any redactions -- and some international presses too. Why didn't he sit down and carefully consider all the information and just pare it down to only the details that Americans were being spied upon by their government? That's why he's legally screwed right now and will likely never be able to return to the United States and be jailed for life if he does.

I don't know, it seems like he released all these documents in an un-redacted and irresponsible manner, and yet the earth continues to tun and the US maintains "national security". The US government doesn't like these leaks because it exposes the fact that its actions often don't match its rhetoric about freedom and democracy and the rule of law and all that.

It's interesting to me that we all seem to tacitly acknowledge that intelligence agencies are criminal organizations; that is, they break the law as m

I wonder why those who advise upon security matters allowed the purchase of such kit? Things have changed a bit of late, witness the fuss about Chinese companies and associated hardware http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19988919 [bbc.co.uk], anti trade, xenophobia or real security worries?

Oh, really? Everybody's doing that? Well, perhaps the USSR did, but do you honestly believe that close Western allies of the US are systematically bugging US embassies and spying on US politicians on a massive scale?

You know, if somebody found out that the US bugged one fax machine of their European allies, you'd be right - it would be swept under the carpet and handled through diplomatic channels. But we're talking about absolutely massive, persistent spying on close allies.

I can understand if the US spies on China and vice versa, and many of the discoveries in this areas is handled via side channels (e.g. swaping intelligence agence), but it's hard to understand why the US needs to massively spy on European administration to obtain more information about the latest regulation for the shapes of bananas or how much earth may be on potatoes.

Whether the US should take the moral high road or dive into the muck like "just another country" is a debate that goes back to the founding of the Republic. It looks like it's finally been settled.:-(

You're kidding, right? I have a big problem w/ the US invading countries under false pretenses and for utterly indefensible reasons. This spying on allies stuff just means we aren't boy scouts. I'm going to be outraged at least until my next cup of coffee.

Whether the US should take the moral high road or dive into the muck like "just another country" is a debate that goes back to the founding of the Republic. It looks like it's finally been settled.:-(

The US is still here. That means they did what was needed to survive. If you don't understand that, you are not qualified to be in charge of anything.

Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that the US is still here does not mean that any given set of actions is responsible for it. I could just as easily say that the US is still here in spite of the actions taken by recent administrations.

do you honestly believe that close Western allies of the US are systematically bugging US embassies and spying on US politicians on a massive scale

I don't know if they're doing it systematically because there haven't been any European Snowdens lately. It certainly wouldn't shock me if it was true. There have been plenty of cases of allies bugging each other, including for business and commercial reasons.

but it's hard to understand why the US needs to massively spy on European administration to obtain more information about the latest regulation for the shapes of bananas or how much earth may be on potatoes.

Funny you should mention food regulation. The US has a huge problem with EU regulation of food. GMO foods have to be clearly labelled and most if not all US beef is banned within the EU because over here treating cattle with growth hormone is a serious crime and the resulting meat is not tolerated to enter the food chain, but this is standard practice in the US. There are huge economic interests involved and as Cablegate has shown, the US government is directly involved in putting pressure on EU states to further those interests. Knowing the thoughts of EU negotiators would give an unfair advantage.

So many people think this spying is primarily for military and security reasons but the EU is first of all an economic pact, the EU doesn't even have a joint military and the major EU powers are through NATO already allied with the US.
By consequence the spying on the EU is for economic reasons.
In the past there have been very suspicious deals where for example in China an Airbus contract was at last minute handed to Boeing, we don't need more of this crap were government organisations are doing dirty legwork for corporation.

The upcoming Free Trade negotiations are obviously a nice target, the US dearly wants to know how far they can push the EU in their own direction by exploiting divisions among the EU members, I'm afraid the US has now shot themselves in both feet.

Oh, really? Everybody's doing that? Well, perhaps the USSR did, but do you honestly believe that close Western allies of the US are systematically bugging US embassies and spying on US politicians on a massive scale?

Yes. I've read elsewhere that the French are particularly zealous about spying on businessmen from the US.

Here's an example:

WASHINGTON - The Boeing Co. was among the targets of a French government plan for a massive spying effort to learn U.S. technological secrets and trade strategies, acc

I would add France, Taiwan, and Australia to that list as well but you pretty much nailed it. They all do it, usually to gain advantage during trade and treaty negotiations. The official "outrage" is mostly posturing. In the long run this is going to be a bit of a windfall for the EU countries since this is going to give them a good bit of leverage for a while.

International diplomacy is a sport all it's own, and it's a very rough sport.

...there is a possibility that Snowden may be a "false flag" to discredit leakers. I'm not saying he is or isn't, but Naomi Wolf [naomiwolf.org] says it better than me - she's a writer and journalist with a proven record on whistleblower and civil rights issues... WELL worth looking up for End of America [youtube.com] alone).

Snowden may very well be the real deal... but it's just worth thinking a step ahead and not balancing the foundations on him or any one person. These issues are much bigger than any single entity anyway... the problems are systemic. We need to act, and act positively despite the potential for political tricks.

Quoting the PP in full because I hate moderators turning into political censors. -1 is for trolls and flamebait, not posters whose opinions you disagree with. FWIW I completely disagree w/ the PP, but their comment is a legitimate part of this debate.

Those countries are probably spying on us as well. And our government has a responsibility to know what other governments are doing, to the best of our abilities.

That said, it shows how much damage Snowden has done to publicly reveal this undoubtedly top secret information. He's a traitor.

P.S. The ultimate irony is if this comment gets modded down from its original +2, but it wouldn't be the first time a comment like this has been. Not only do some mods like to act as political censors, they don't like being called on it.

Snowden is Hot Potato. Agree with him or not, there's no country in their right mind who would want him on the premises. He was asked by HK/Chine to leave, and I'm pretty sure Russia can't wait to get him on a plane.

Unless he also has information about Russia (or whatever country he's in) and they find out. In which case he'll be in some pretty Hot Water.

I'm just amazed that he left the country at all. If he had planned this a bit beforehand he could probably fake going to HK in the first place while staying in the US undetected, it's a vast country so hiding should be easy provided you change your apparance and get a fake id.

This is like a newspaper cartoon series with the artist getting better each week.

You Americans are sooooooo screwed. And it was about time too. Perhaps you'll learn to pay attention when you vote now. There are more than two choices you know.

You really don't see the trajectory of this, do you? I'm not sure what country you're from, but it's a safe bet that the people responsible for bringing this attempted panopticon into being are coming for you too. This isn't about any nation state. It's about a supra-national elite running the world for their own power and gain. It's not a conspiracy, it's the recognition of shared interests. It would be irrational for the ultra-rich to not coordinate to ensure their continued preeminence. Unless you