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Yes, Gundam isn't exactly a realistic anime to begin with. I mean ... since the times of Amuro piloting the very first gundam after reading a manual for a couple of minutes you know that you will have to accept some things as granted... and it's sci-fi after all. I won't question the realism of gundams or how the weapons work or even why did those CE characters survive many times in those absurd situation (the silliest ever was Kira surviving the explosion of the Freedom). I mean you can always come up with crazy explanation like: he ejected in time(?), ther was a protection(?and those huge explosion?), or something else...
Let's discuss about the very definition of Plot hole character or “out of convenience character”: Lacus Clyne. Not only during the series she does act in very convenient but “questionable” ways but her very existance is “out of convenience”. She is the unrealistic perfect and allmighty politician.

Credibility
In GS she was 16 years old. I mean 16 years old. Now try to imagine a 16 years old going to CNN and speak to the world about serious matters as peace, war and international relations. Done? Now, stop laughing frantically and add the fact she is a popular pop-singer. Imagine Britney Spears going to CNN to speak. I'm not saying it's stupid because she says stupid things.... it's stupid because she is 16 years old. Would you follow the ideals and vote for a 16 years old? I mean: you can respect and be a fn of a great 16 years old sportman, super-bike driver, chess-champion, genious mathematician, singer, soldier but ... a 16 years older politician? No, of course: a 16 years old politician lacks credibility. It's not a matter of being a good or a bad politician: it's just impossible to have the credibility to begin with.

Experience
So Lacus is 16 years old but for some misterious reason she already knows how the world works and how to act as the perfect (not just an average or good... but the best!) politician. Now we all know that being a politician is not something that you learn from books or that you learn at school: what is needed is experience. There are no geniuses in politics as in other fields. You can be at age 16 a genious at chess, a top-class programmer, a top-class football player, and with some stretches even a top class fighter (in WWII a couple of years were more than enought to have veterans).... but not a perfect politician. In an era when war is helped by computers to look like a a videogame it's not SO strange to have pilot so young and so powerful (and it's still strange) but the case of Lacus is just impossible. Lacus was already perfect and experienced in GS. How is it even possible? She is 16 years old.... politicians need years and decades of experience to go to the top but she already had the skill from the start. It's magic not even sci-fi. This unearthly and unrealistic perfection had two results: fans who workship her for her perfection and at the same time the most static and flat character of all the “main cast” of GS.

Resources
I mean: where does she get the funds to make the Clyne faction work? Huge amounts of money and other goods are necessary... the Clyne faction wasn't a high school club.... it was a faction with battleships and the most powerful ever gundams created. As strange it may sounds (and it wasn't explained in GS or GSD) it's still plausible that some rich people or corporation was giving her money.... something like a Zaft's Logos (he he he). But still it's just impossible to completely fool ZAFT in hiding something as huge as Eternal.... or SF and IJ. And even if you accept the highly improbable but still plausible bottomless funds that aided Lacus how was she even able to produce SF and IJ? SF and IJ are not some kind of zaku that you can assemble one way or another: they are the most powerful prototypes ever created that of course needed huge resources, time and top-class engineers, top class workers and top class industrial equipments. How was Lacus able to do this and not Zaft know this? Again mistery.

Fortuneteller or Seer
I mean she always does the right thing when needed and without actual knowledge of the situation. In GS Kira was delivered to her by the priest? Why? She then entrusted Freedom (not some random Ginn) to Kira without knowing who he was and what was he going to do. In GSD she sent Dacosta to retrieve Destiny plans from Mendel colony... how did she know the plan was there? During the entire series she just gives orders that thanks to plot hole are always right in the end.

This whole thread is not a "hate" thread. It's just a thread to point out who Lacus was: a Plot Hole Character. And she is always right. She is the one who makes the whole plot of CE works one way or another. She is completely unrealistic and idealistic we just have to accept her as for what she is. After that we can like or dislike her.

Credibility: She's a coordinator and a woman, their minds and level of maturity, in general, can develop faster than naturals or even other coordinators and men.

Experience: She's the daughter of an influential politician, and it doesn't seem like her dad hides much from her. He could've been teaching her.

Resources: She's part of a political faction that's obviously managed to thrive against the EAF, it would be similar against ZAFT, especially since most of them are part of ZAFT, either former or ongoing. Not to mention other nations like Orb and Scandinavia might've helped.

Fortune teller/seer: no comment.

But,

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Originally Posted by otacu

In GS Kira was delivered to her by the priest? Why?

He was going to PLANT anyway, I'm sure they have better medical facility than him.

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She then entrusted Freedom (not some random Ginn) to Kira without knowing who he was and what was he going to do.

She knows he's not going to take side with either EAF or ZAFT, and that he wants to end the war, but not committing genocide. The alternative is to let it be used by ZAFT to destroy EAF.

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In GSD she sent Dacosta to retrieve Destiny plans from Mendel colony... how did she know the plan was there?

She doesn't know a plan is there. She's just investigating possible leads on Dullindal's past activities.

Plant kids can graduate (graduate, not enroll) from a military academy as young as 15 (Nicole did), so we can safely assume they grow faster than RL kids. Not just coordinators, for that matter. If fifteen years old Flay could legally be part of the EAF military, that means even Naturals are considered adults pretty early.

Besides, IRL, I saw a German MP (or was she part of the European parliament? I forget.) who was eighteen. Eighteen. As in, only two years older.

Add to that the fact that CE's culture is more accepting of inherited power than ours, and Lacus' success isn't so unbelievable. Within the framework of her universe.

Frankly, it's a lot more acceptable than someone becoming an ace pilot within five minutes of getting into a MS for the first time.

The problem is not being "just a politician" at age of 16 it's being "THE politician".

Being a politician is not something that you graduate from school and you are automatically the best strategist and politician in the universe.
It's job that requires years and years of experience and work but she is "out of convenience" superskilled from the start.

Growing faster has nothing to do with gaining experience in political matters. There are genius programmers who graduated from MIT IRL but being a politician is completely different: being a politician is not about notions (you cannot teach "how to be a politician" or "political experience" you can only learn by yourself) but about experience.

Rofl! after my post about the "sadness" i still felt 3 years after GS went watching the Fllay's death scene and the way it derailled into a Lacus/Fllay argument, it was only a matter of time before a thread such as this one appear.
I ll just say that Lacus is the worst design character. She was granted scryptwritters benediction on the day of her birth, then she is given the mysterious arcana of plot holes an arcana very hard to master taught only to a choosen few. After sometime she is granted extrasensorial and extrapersonnal perception allowing her to know everything before it happens. Aside from that this character just plain and entirely did not evolve or change during the serie, she started all mighty and in the end she is still all mighty no evolution, complete lack of devellopement. i see her as some sort of hybrid genetic mutation or some sort of eugenistic experience using the gens of Ming May + Relena peacecraft + hokuto no Ken (for the all mighty purpose). This resulted in the less interresting character ever ultimate power + absolute stagnation + no challenge at all = no point or any interrest. This character could have had some potential if she had show some emotion and had also meet challenges to overcome, she ended being an unrealistic character. The same can apply to Shinn from GSD, he was also granted plot device to succeed. In the end i think the character are not to blame but the character designer that utterly failled their job
Reguarding plot holes Otacu must have already listed everything i could probably say concerning her.
I m sure that it will unfortunately turn into a keyboard fight between Otacu and demongod + anh mih, anyway in before it gets lock. xD

If a person like Jeanne d'Arc existed in real life then I think a character like Lacus isn't as far fetched as it sound especially if you look at it the context of the gundam universe in which realism is not overtly important. Of course the two of them led completely different lives but the one thing they have in common is that they are both portrayed as inspirational and saintly leaders.

She's a popular songstress at 16. She has access to tv sites. Her dad is a politician.

After the end of Seed, did she actually run anything if she's what you call a politician? Activist yes, politician is way far off. She hid in seclusion ffs.

And yes, we see these people in society. Kids who inspire other kids. Its a common theme to be a voice in society especially if you're well known (like a songstress/actress/son/daughter of a politician does).

Whenever someone run an active campaign, there will always be people supporting underground and I think that's the case why Lacus has access to so many things (like the destiny plans, teh pawnzors freedom).

Lacus has influence, and she's ready to use it. And as far as I know, she didn't coax anyone into fighting for her (well, maybe the eternal crew, but that's it).

After reading my post, you think I'm a Lacus fan huh? Not true. There's only one gundam girl I like and its Rain Mikamura

Are we in teenager society? Majority is under 16 year old? Of course Kids inspire kids but not in the political thoughts!
Would you listen to Britney Spears? Christina Aguileira as US president? Do you think adults has no better things to do than listening to a 16years old singer?

We are talking about serious matters here not some teenager who inspire other teenagers.
Lacus was designed to be some sort of unrealistic enchantress from the beginning. How can she be so experienced and skilled from the start? It's completely impossible.

And i'm not talking about skilled in videogames or skilled in soccer or skilled in other fields of knowledge.... i'm talking about politics here... and not just a regular politician who has her little support (heck even pornostars got voted just to have fun) ... in CE everyone listened to her, she manipulated public opinion like she was toying with a barbie doll and rough soldiers in a battle were confused by her simply talking.

Did you really think Jean D'arc existed like in the legend? Come on go check history! She was just a pawn with no political skill used by the Delphine to fight England.

Lacus was the TOP from the beginning.... she was already at the finish line when GS started like some kind of deity. She had everything for no real reason .... and she was 16 years old.
She was just designed to be perfect in every single aspect.
The perfect plot device.

And i'm not talking about skilled in videogames or skilled in soccer or skilled in other fields of knowledge.... i'm talking about politics here... and not just a regular politician who has her little support (heck even pornostars got voted just to have fun) ... in CE everyone listened to her, she manipulated public opinion like she was toying with a barbie doll and rough soldiers in a battle were confused by her simply talking.

Did you really think Jean D'arc existed like in the legend? Come on go check history! She was just a pawn with no political skill used by the Delphine to fight England.

Lacus was the TOP from the beginning.... she was already at the finish line when GS started like some kind of deity. She had everything for no real reason .... and she was 16 years old.
She was just designed to be perfect in every single aspect.
The perfect plot device.

Legend? Who said anything about the legend. I didn't say one word about Jeanne d'Arc being a skilled politician but she was an inspirational military leader and that is supported by historical documents. Lacus being so young is merely a symptom of the overall problem with the Gundam universe being a franchise that is mainly targeted at kids and teens. Personally I think Gundam would be much better by throwing out all the teenage crap i.e. make Kira and Amuro 21 or 22 ish when they started out in their respective series but that is a subject for another debate. Lacus being perfect does not mean she is merely there for the sake of convenience. She is supposed to be a deity-like character which is entire point of GS and GSD. It's just like Faramir is supposed to be a saint in Lord of the Rings. Take a great scifi series like Babylon 5 for example it also has nearly perfect characters. In fact the Kira/Lacus relationship on GS and GSD to me felt like a silly teenager version of Sheridan/Delenn (Babylon 5).

please don't relate Kira and Lacus to Sheridan and Delenn. Sheridan and Delenn seem more beliveable than Kira and Lacus. For one Sheridan was a war hero of the earth/mimbari war who was already a career soldier during that war and became captin of Babylon 5 for his years of service after the war unlike Kira who was a civilian when the first war in seed happened. And Deleen was already at a high postion(she was an assitant to one of the Mimbari's high ranking/religous leaders I think) and expericenced in politics more than Lacus.

In other words Sheridan's and Deleen's experience overshadow's Kira and Lacus

Yes, Gundam isn't exactly a realistic anime to begin with. I mean ... since the times of Amuro piloting the very first gundam after reading a manual for a couple of minutes you know that you will have to accept some things as granted... and it's sci-fi after all. I won't question the realism of gundams or how the weapons work or even why did those CE characters survive many times in those absurd situation (the silliest ever was Kira surviving the explosion of the Freedom). I mean you can always come up with crazy explanation like: he ejected in time(?), ther was a protection(?and those huge explosion?), or something else...
Let's discuss about the very definition of Plot hole character or “out of convenience character”: Lacus Clyne. Not only during the series she does act in very convenient but “questionable” ways but her very existance is “out of convenience”. She is the unrealistic perfect and allmighty politician.

Credibility
In GS she was 16 years old. I mean 16 years old. Now try to imagine a 16 years old going to CNN

As you yourself said it, we can't just say "holy crap, Lacus is unrealistic, oh noes!" because hell, how are kids getting into gundams and becoming competent pilots in five minutes, let alone becoming GODS on the battlefield and downing in ONE MISSION what most aces today get over an entire CAREER (Shinn I believe had like 30 kills in ep 17 with all of those windams?) So as far as Lacus's unrealistic aspect goes, within the context of the CE world, when you compare her to other characters of relative achievement in their own field, it's a slight stretch, but nothing HOLY CRAP, PLOT HOLE!

[/quote]
...and speak to the world about serious matters as peace, war and international relations. Done? Now, stop laughing frantically and add the fact she is a popular pop-singer. Imagine Britney Spears going to CNN to speak. I'm not saying it's stupid because she says stupid things.... it's stupid because she is 16 years old. [/quote]

Perhaps 12 of 16 of those years were right by her father's side at the meetings or onscreen in the background, observing, listening, formulating her own opinions, the works. Perhaps she was homeschooled in the evening but followed her father around at his work to that extent that she is able to formulate her own people-person skills? It might not be much of an explanation, but I'd think it's better than "plot hole".

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Would you follow the ideals and vote for a 16 years old? I mean: you can respect and be a fn of a great 16 years old sportman, super-bike driver, chess-champion, genious mathematician, singer, soldier but ... a 16 years older politician? No, of course: a 16 years old politician lacks credibility. It's not a matter of being a good or a bad politician: it's just impossible to have the credibility to begin with.

If her father Siegel Clyne would stand behind that, I absolutely would. And in this case, she was basically continuing her father's ideals. And compared to other politicians like warmongering insanity-gripped Patrick Zala or Gilbert Decept--I mean Durandall, she doesn't seem like that bad of an option. Especially in GSD when she has already proved her worth that she's not just blowing steam.

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Experience
So Lacus is 16 years old but for some misterious reason she already knows how the world works and how to act as the perfect (not just an average or good... but the best!) politician. Now we all know that being a politician is not something that you learn from books or that you learn at school: what is needed is experience. There are no geniuses in politics as in other fields. You can be at age 16 a genious at chess, a top-class programmer, a top-class football player, and with some stretches even a top class fighter (in WWII a couple of years were more than enought to have veterans).... but not a perfect politician. In an era when war is helped by computers to look like a a videogame it's not SO strange to have pilot so young and so powerful (and it's still strange) but the case of Lacus is just impossible. Lacus was already perfect and experienced in GS. How is it even possible? She is 16 years old.... politicians need years and decades of experience to go to the top but she already had the skill from the start. It's magic not even sci-fi. This unearthly and unrealistic perfection had two results: fans who workship her for her perfection and at the same time the most static and flat character of all the “main cast” of GS.

Okay, stop the leaps. Who's to say she doesn't have experience? And if we look at Lacus's character, she's usually very very quiet, and doesn't cause a ruckus. She's there to calm people down, and puts the people first. By 16, also, I don't see her holding positions on the ZAFT council. All I see is that she is her father's loyal daughter that sings to try and calm the people down. She doesn't even try to do politics until Patrick Zala is hunting her and she's trying to just be HEARD, for better or for worse, than to just die and disappear.

Also, I recommend before you start preaching about perfection that you play Final Fantasy X and then Final Fantasy X 2 and compare Lacus and Yuna...they are almost identical in that the first go-around, amid chaos, pain and strife, they are the ones that selflessly bring about some notion of peace, whether it's by simultaneously stopping a nuclear fleet and a death ray that even Emperor Palpatine would be proud of, or by going against all odds and permanently destroying the biggest threat to the world's history. In GS, Lacus showed that she was there for the people when she stopped Zala and Azrael. So in GSD, she ALREADY has the people's trust and whatever she does in GSD, I find it more believable already since she has the people's trust, ditto with Yuna in X 2 being able to end a brewing war with a single song.

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Resources
I mean: where does she get the funds to make the Clyne faction work? Huge amounts of money and other goods are necessary... the Clyne faction wasn't a high school club.... it was a faction with battleships and the most powerful ever gundams created. As strange it may sounds (and it wasn't explained in GS or GSD) it's still plausible that some rich people or corporation was giving her money.... something like a Zaft's Logos (he he he). But still it's just impossible to completely fool ZAFT in hiding something as huge as Eternal.... or SF and IJ. And even if you accept the highly improbable but still plausible bottomless funds that aided Lacus how was she even able to produce SF and IJ? SF and IJ are not some kind of zaku that you can assemble one way or another: they are the most powerful prototypes ever created that of course needed huge resources, time and top-class engineers, top class workers and top class industrial equipments. How was Lacus able to do this and not Zaft know this? Again mistery.

Have you ever heard of loyalists? Perhaps a split cabinet? You even said it yourself: Clyne FACTION. It's not just Lacus magically saying abra kadabra and having SF and IJ come into existence. Because of how many people loved her father, she inherited a LOT of those people's loyalties, if not all of them. And those people indeed WERE engineers, politicians, soldiers, spies, the works...so when you're talking about SF and IJ, I believe it was said that Destiny was already conceived at the end of the first war, just shelved thanks to treaties. Well guess what? Engineers loyal to the Clyne Faction saw those plans, and coupled with Kira's and Athrun's proven performances, when the shit hit the fan, those engineers were able to build SF and IJ when the moment called for it. As for the funding for the materials and whatnot, that's a very good question but I think there's an explanation for that as well...ever seen Swat Kats? The turbokat is built completely from scrap found in the junkyard. There is a LOT of junk floating in space, and I do mean a LOT. Take enough of that junk and refine it and wham, bam. Or if that doesn't suit you (I really don't think it will), then how about this? Look at the size of ZAFT's army...how many MSes they're developing...the variety, but more importantly, the sheer number. SF and IJ are a drop in a bucket compared to all of that. Okay, perhaps something larger, that would actually have to be government approved as to where the hell the tax dollars are going. Guess what? That's covered because as mentioned before, Clyne Faction people are at the highest ranks in the government. Wasn't Eileen Canaver even chairman at one point (end of GS)? So they take a bit of the defense funds and state that it's for top-secret prototype research, and voila, Freedom and Justice (and the DOMs). Either way, it's certainly FAR cheaper when you look at quantity than the entire ZAFT military, and especially considering that the technology available on SF and IJ was already present between Freedom Mk. I, Justice, Providence, and the upcoming Destiny Gundam, which would also cheapen that. Yes, if you base the fact that here is SF, a single MS that can make entire fleets look like a joke, then it should cost as much as an army, right? Wrong. It would cost significantly more than a single "grunt" MS, but you must remember, IT'S STILL ONE MS. In terms of cost, quantity>>>>>>>>quality. In terms of what we saw in the anime, quality>>>>>>>>>>>>>quantity.

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Fortuneteller or Seer
I mean she always does the right thing when needed and without actual knowledge of the situation. In GS Kira was delivered to her by the priest? Why? She then entrusted Freedom (not some random Ginn) to Kira without knowing who he was and what was he going to do. In GSD she sent Dacosta to retrieve Destiny plans from Mendel colony... how did she know the plan was there? During the entire series she just gives orders that thanks to plot hole are always right in the end.

This whole thread is not a "hate" thread. It's just a thread to point out who Lacus was: a Plot Hole Character. And she is always right. She is the one who makes the whole plot of CE works one way or another. She is completely unrealistic and idealistic we just have to accept her as for what she is. After that we can like or dislike her.

That IS probably the closest thing you could see to a plot hole, with Kira being delivered. Read the Astray Manga. Lowe delivers Kira to Malchio. Malchio remembers Lacus mentioning what a great guy Kira was when she was on AA, Malchio calls up Lacus to tell her what he found, Lacus says to ship him up there. Yes, she entrusted to Kira the Freedom (I wonder if Siegel had anything to do with that, because in the retelling of GS in manga form, it's SIEGEL that decides to give Freedom to Kira), but that was because she knew he wasn't going to take it to fight for one political purpose or another. As for the Mendel Colony, if she knew it was there, why not have her know right where it was as well? That place is a haunted house full of oodles and goodies. Lacus decided to pay a visit to that place, since, it's, well, abandoned, and it was a nice big genetic research facility (and what was Durandall before chairman? Oh yeah, a GENETICIST!).

As for Lacus being completely unrealistic, she's not COMPLETELY unrealistic. She IS, however, idealized. We can find Lacus's qualities here and there...a beautiful girl here, a talented speaker there, a heartwarming songstress in another place...the qualities Lacus possesses exist in people today. They just don't exist in such a nice, happy blend, which is why Lacus is unique. Well, check that, one of a pair. FFX2 Yuna isn't a far cry from being Lacus Clyne's twin sister with a different hairdo.

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I would call her as more of a plot device character than a plot hole, particilarly when compared to the other gianormous ones in other parts of the stores. She is pretty much a princess like figure although it needs better explaining how she, and thus the CLYNE faction, gain so much support to begin with considering it seems like quite a lot of PLANT people are at the least empathic to the war effort to begin with. She could have been more belivable will better background explanation. She doesn't need any politican skill to be popular. Heck, I am not even sure if PLANTS are even democratic. They seem to be more of a aristocratic society. All of her ideals are pretty naive to begin with. Her speeches are no more convincing than whatever teenagers says today. It is really her status that gives her any power and recognition.

I think the key is rather how the whole politics of CE is set up that made little. sense. In the real world, people like Lacus (and also Joan of Arc), are merely public figure. They are promoted, used and "supported" by people in the background with their own agenda and rarely do things end well like in SEED.

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Also, I recommend before you start preaching about perfection that you play Final Fantasy X and then Final Fantasy X 2 and compare Lacus and Yuna...they are almost identical in that the first go-around, amid chaos, pain and strife....