Thanks for the well wishes, but it is working excellent over here and has been ever time I've used it. Using it on amd64 actually and have never had a panic or an issue. VDPAU is truly a wonderful thing when watching movies while keeping the laptop's temp down, drawing less power, and extending the battery life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oko

I fail to see how zfs would be useful for a typical desktop user.

Snapshots have saved my butt many a times. Compression saves space. Recovery from power outages is MUCH better. We typical users typically make some errors so fixing our mistakes through a rollback or running out of battery/ losing power without buying a UPS happens. Add in multiple drives and self-healing is great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oko

On another hand udf (blue ray, dvd) is for most desktop users very important. OpenBSD has second to none support for udf file system (it is better than Windows support).

Well according to wikipedia (take that with a grain of salt) windows vista and 7 supports it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oko

You can read cvs commits. Having a great audio server in the base is also a big + for OpenBSD.

It definitely is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oko

You are not very familiar with OpenBSD...

I already posted my lack of knowledge in terms of ahci and ncq in regard to openbsd which BSDfan666 pointed out, and I provided a link to when it was added.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oko

I fail to see how FreeBSD supports Flash.

It supports flash in that every single website I go to that has flash works perfectly with version 10 of adobe's flash implementation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oko

It is dead for all practical purposes. If he needs Flash Windows is the way to go.

Java barely works on FreeBSD on another hand the latest Icedtea is ported to NetBSD. Work is in progress on OpenBSD. Support for native SUN Java works far better on OpenBSD than on FreeBSD but that is beyond the point.

The diablo plugin, though very old with security holes, is the only thing of all of those that works with an online java app my college uses for registering for classes. Work is also in progress for FreeBSD to port the latest icedtea. How would you quantify "far better" of the native sun java? They both haven't been updated for two years .

An aside, I love both, and was merely pointing out what in day to day desktop usage I really enjoyed FreeBSD having over OpenBSD.

We were trying to deploy 130 thin clients instead of full blown desktops at GSU at the new computer lab thereby saving jobs of at least five people who are now laid off and lots of electricity and the maintenance on the long run. The application to be used is purely client-sever based but the vendor who was providing server side was using Flash for some stupidities and they were not cooperating with us. Since we had no time to work on Linux emulation layer for OpenBSD we tested NetBSD. At the end the whole project failed but we learned valuable lessons.

For your information the only two operating systems which were light enough to be used on the Wyse thin clients were OpenBSD and NetBSD. Wyse provided embedded Windows and Linux were so crippled to be able to run on the thin clients that were practically useless (there were missing so many libraries) that no application could be installed.

My limited experience with both FreeBSD and OpenBSD is that FreeBSD has proved impossible to install/run on one machine (booting fails because one of the two cores in the processor refuses to start properly) and FreeBSD with either Gnome or KDE desktops on another machine occasionally hangs with the mouse unable to select items on the desktop (it's much worse with KDE).

OpenBSD doesn't put any real work into developing user interfaces, so the Gnome desktop is old, Firefox is only at version 3.0.something and so on. Lots of things users expect to come with Gnome aren't there. FreeBSD has a much better default Gnome install package. OpenBSD does work though and seems very solid.

The FreeBSD forums are larger and more informative than the OpenBSD ones!

My limited experience with both FreeBSD and OpenBSD is that FreeBSD has proved impossible to install/run on one machine (booting fails because one of the two cores in the processor refuses to start properly) and FreeBSD with either Gnome or KDE desktops on another machine occasionally hangs with the mouse unable to select items on the desktop (it's much worse with KDE).

I believe SMP can be enabled.
KDE crashing occurs with Linux also, Maybe building a lite version of each desktop would be better. You can install the base of each and use, say, xfce or blackbox as your environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanic

OpenBSD doesn't put any real work into developing user interfaces, so the Gnome desktop is old, Firefox is only at version 3.0.something and so on. Lots of things users expect to come with Gnome aren't there. FreeBSD has a much better default Gnome install package. OpenBSD does work though and seems very solid.

OpenBSD's main focus is not the desktop. You can download and build files from source if you wish. As said before, more eyes. The developers of each project put in a lot of work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanic

The FreeBSD forums are larger and more informative than the OpenBSD ones!

The mailing lists of each are even more informative. My experience is that there is always a developer willing to help.

Overall, the desktop doesn't matter that much when my focus is a "project." It's then that the OS itself has the importance.

OpenBSD doesn't put any real work into developing user interfaces, so the Gnome desktop is old, Firefox is only at version 3.0.something and so on. Lots of things users expect to come with Gnome aren't there.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It is an insult for OpenBSD people who spent hundreds of hours fixing Gnome crap. The Gnome is up to date. The only missing things are the one which are not usable on OpenBSD due to the fact that you actually have manually to configure files or the one that are so Linux specific that are beyond the hope to be ported to OpenBSD.

You are also spreading FUD about Firefox. The latest Firefox is ported to OpenBSD. OpenBSD project however keeps around Firefox 3.5.xxx because of Java. Namely Firefox is so buggy and SUN Java plug-ins do not work on Firefox 3.6.xxx. Since many people do need Java we keep 3.5.xxx in ports. There is a serious effort on the way to port IcedTea Java to OpenBSD (or should I say just remaining parts which will enable browser plugins). after which we will ditch 3.5.xxx completely.

That was very dishonest and incompetent post for the lack of better wording. One of the worst I have seen around here.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It is an insult for OpenBSD people who spent hundreds of hours fixing Gnome crap. The Gnome is up to date. The only missing things are the one which are not usable on OpenBSD due to the fact that you actually have manually to configure files or the one that are so Linux specific that are beyond the hope to be ported to OpenBSD.

No, compare the Gnome2 package on FreeBSD with the Gnome package on OpenBSD. Many more tools on the F-BSD one.

Quote:

You are also spreading FUD about Firefox. The latest Firefox is ported to OpenBSD. OpenBSD project however keeps around Firefox 3.5.xxx because of Java. Namely Firefox is so buggy and SUN Java plug-ins do not work on Firefox 3.6.xxx. Since many people do need Java we keep 3.5.xxx in ports. There is a serious effort on the way to port IcedTea Java to OpenBSD (or should I say just remaining parts which will enable browser plugins). after which we will ditch 3.5.xxx completely.

3.5? The package available is 3.0 as I said. This is not FUD it is what the situation is. Point me to a 3.5 package? Ports are a turn-off, I spent hours compiling OpenOffice on FreeBSD two weeks ago, why repeat that if packages exist?

Quote:

That was very dishonest and incompetent post for the lack of better wording. One of the worst I have seen around here.

This is a compare OpenBSD with FreeBSD thread I think. The above are my impressions after trying both. It may not be to your liking but it is honest, please do not doubt that.

OpenBSD doesn't put any real work into developing user interfaces, so the Gnome desktop is old, Firefox is only at version 3.0.something and so on. Lots of things users expect to come with Gnome aren't there. FreeBSD has a much better default Gnome install package. OpenBSD does work though and seems very solid.

OpenBSD's base system comes with several window managers, several of which can be styled.. how one defines a decent user interface is definitely a subject of debate.

Firefox 3.5 and 3.6.x are in the ports tree now, and they are often one of the first to experiment with new versions of Firefox.. perhaps you're confused by the fact that development takes place in -CURRENT not on releases.

At the ports hackathons things like GLIB/GTK and Gnome are often hacked on by various developers.. it's a complicated amount of dependencies to deal with as what one considers "gnome" is actually a large collection of software, primarily developed and tested on Linux by its developers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanic

The FreeBSD forums are larger and more informative than the OpenBSD ones!

FreeBSD has official forums, OpenBSD does not, community and developer activity is largely on the official mailing lists.. here on daemonforums we only have a handful of people actively answering questions, but we all try answering questions in the other subsections.

I really think this thread is a disservice to the community, make your own opinions, and ask specific questions.

3.5? The package available is 3.0 as I said. This is not FUD it is what the situation is. Point me to a 3.5 package? Ports are a turn-off, I spent hours compiling OpenOffice on FreeBSD two weeks ago, why repeat that if packages exist?

This is indeed FUD, what version of OpenBSD do you use? a Firefox 3.5 package has been available since the 4.6 release.

This is indeed FUD, what version of OpenBSD do you use? a Firefox 3.5 package has been available since the 4.6 release.
...
.

I use 4.7 as the latest CD available. Before you go too far with the name calling, let me point out that when I run pkg_add firefox I get version 3.0.18 - I am not making this up!

As the FAQ advises us to use packages and not to use ports it seems reasonable to me to expect the version of FF current at the release of 4.7 - what was that, May? - now maybe that was 3.0.18 but I doubt it.

...let me point out that when I run pkg_add firefox I get version 3.0.18 - I am not making this up!

Section 15.2.4 of the FAQ shows that to install packages, the full name of the package (including version specification) must be supplied. However, specifying only:

#pkg_add firefox

...will also succeed in this case because pkg_add(1) also supports "fuzzy" package name matching minus the version specification. The FAQ does not mention this most likely to avoid situations just like this -- users expecting one thing get something entirely different, so make them cognizant of version numbers from the very beginning. Specifying package names with their versions is a safe practice. Experienced users who have studied the manpages will discover other shortcuts, but use them with knowledge of how the package system was designed & works.

As I vaguely recall, Firefox 3.5 was not fully vetted at the time of OpenBSD 4.7's package freeze. Firefox has a track record of releasing rough code, so it takes some time for OpenBSD's port developers to sanction something which has some stability & not cause excessive support nightmares.

You may ask why the latest version (or more recent version) is not available to those using the CD sets. This requires knowledge of the different flavors of OpenBSD which is discussed in Section 5.1 of the FAQ. The developers focus on the head of development which is -current. All new development takes place here. The packages available for -release are defined several months prior to the release date, & in most cases are not updated through the remainder of the support cycle. If you want the very latest versions of third-party applications, you will have to run -current. However, be advised that being at the head of development, running code where the paint is not dry is not advisable to most (which is also stated in Section 5.1...).

mechanic, it appears you are coming at OpenBSD thinking that it is the same as Linux, or expecting it to perform as some other operating system community. It isn't. OpenBSD has its own culture, & own ways of doing things. Expecting it to behave as some other operating system is only going to lead to continued frustration & aggravation.

The solution is to seriously study the documentation beginning with the FAQ. As has been said to you before, OpenBSD is a very small project with a limited number of developers. Rough edges exist. Contradictions will be found. The goal of the OpenBSD project is not to cater to newcomers & the uninformed. The target audience for OpenBSD is the OpenBSD developers themselves as can be seen in the following publicly stated goals:

Yes, this is unlike other Open Source projects. The developers prefer it this way because they can focus on technical arguments & better engineering practices as opposed to coming out with glossy marketing brochures trying to attract every person to use their operating system. If OpenBSD meets your needs & you have the skill set & experience to fill in the gaps that do exist, then great; welcome to the community. If the gaps are too vast, & or you want the project to cater more to your specific needs, there may be other alternatives which are better suited to provide this to you.

I've successfully run GNOME in both OpenBSD and FreeBSD. Any user trying to decide between these two should endeavour to run both systems, learn about them and see what they like.

It would be an understatement to say that OpenBSD and FreeBSD are great projects that each have a lot to offer. It all depends on the user's skill level, comfort level, tasks, and how their hardware reacts to each system.

I don't run the same OS on every machine. I gravitate toward what I need and what the hardware runs well with for each situation.

I have more experience with OpenBSD, so I tend to favor it, but I still follow both projects and will be using FreeBSD in the future, no doubt about it.

QUOTE=Oko..... OpenBSD has second to none support for udf file system (it is better than Windows support). You can read cvs commits. Having a great audio server in the base is also a big + for OpenBSD.

Yes I agree. For a Desktop, music is a top priority for many and OpenBSD does it very well. This needs to be emphasized. The Raid and NFS toys are so useful and easy to use for music/video lovers -- again, the desktop becomes more fun and economical with an audio server imo

I do use FreeBSD on certain hardware where OpenBSD is not ported -- i.e., on my little 35$ Rpi -- but everywhere else I find the documentation of OpenBSD to be more helpful. There's nothing like a clean OpenBSD install ... a few dot-files added in ~/ and some tweaks to a few things in /etc and some rc.conf.local flags set; it is very beautiful in its simplicity of layout and the logic of its configuration. I know it is similar to FreeBSD, but its subtle differences do make a "significant" difference over an extended period of use. Familiarity can breed strong affection. Not all things loved are old, though, as the new dhclient in OpenBSD is fantastic for wireless laptop use, which is important to many for both portable 'desktops' and others, too. SMTP is another but perhaps not that useful for a desktop user.

I started in the *NIX world some years ago in the Linux realm, made the usual distro-hopping between major distros, found ArchLinux and liked it, but then I found FreeBSD and made the jump to the real thing. I have been enjoying FreeBSD since 8.1 to 9.1, but meanwhile I found OpenBSD and NetBSD, and liked them too, each one with its fortitudes and weaknesses, but all enjoyable and usefull OSes in my eyes.

Maybe now I have taken the OpenBSD path, for I have stopped the OS-hopping and reinstall frenzy I had in the last ten years...