We may look back on this day and remember it as a pivotal moment in which a guy named Colin Cowgill knocked whatever has been out of whack with Tim Lincecum back into alignment. It’s a pretty crazy hunch, admittedly, but just throw it on the pile of the thousands of cures media pundits and fans have conjured to cure Timmy’s myriad ills.

Lincecum suffered one of the most embarrassing days he’s likely ever incurred on a baseball field Sunday. It wasn’t all the runs he allowed in the fourth inning against the Oakland A’s, the ill-timed walks, the restlessness of the sellout crowd he surely heard or even the smattering of boos that emanated from the crowd after No. 8 hitter Cowgill lofted a poorly thrown Lincecum pitch into center field for a two-run single.

No, the real mortification came moments later when, with Cowgill dancing off second base, Lincecum uncorked a wild pitch that went to the backstop. In a half-hearted attempt to cover home as Buster Posey relayed the ball to him, Lincecum got laid out by Cowgill like a 5-pin trying to stop a 16-pound Brunswick.

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Never has The Freak looked so Meek. He laid there dazed for a few seconds, then needed a couple minutes more behind the mound to count up all of his marbles. Lincecum managed to finish the inning somehow, but didn’t return. Yes, he’d thrown 90 pitches, but this was an exit born of humiliation, the rock-bottom moment of Lincecum’s confounding and increasingly maddening loss of confidence, command, concentration and all-around elite-pitcher swagger.

Afterward, Lincecum gave a lot of the same answers we’ve been hearing much of the year after his failures. He needs to not be so fine, he said, more assured about his stuff. He needs to stop worrying that he’s walking people too much, because when he does, he walks people. Then came the usual questions and answers about the mechanics and the velocity. Yawn.

Wanting to change the line of questioning, I threw something out. I asked Lincecum if he’d ever taken that kind of hit at home plate before. Surprisingly, he said he’d had. At Kansas City, 2008 (June 22, to be exact). He even remembered the player who knocked him silly that day on a similar type of wild pitch play, David DeJesus.

I was so curious, I went back and looked at that game. In an 11-10 Giants loss to the Royals, Lincecum had a pitching line very similar to the one he had Sunday — 5 innings, 6 hits, 5 earned runs, two walks. He threw 109 pitches in those five frames. Although he wasn’t in the kind of extended funk he’s been in throughout 2012, he’d been pretty terrible his previous start, too, even though both of those starts were no-decisions.

But in the wake of getting clocked by DeJesus, Lincecum went into his next start — ironically, against Oakland — and threw seven shutout innings and struck out 11 in a 1-0 victory. Over the longer haul, he had very few erratic starts the rest of the season, wound up 18-5 and ultimately won his first Cy Young Award.

It just makes you wonder, might lightning strike twice? Did Cowgill knock some much-needed sense into the Giants’ lost ace? Right now, the Giants would take that kind of resolution, because they’re pretty much out of answers, not to mention patience. Bruce Bochy’s postgame comments about Lincecum’s general lack of concentration were telling, even if they were calmly spoken.

So we’ll just have to see when Tim next toes the rubber in Miami this week. You look for small clues, and I heard a couple in some of his subsequent answers to questions. He dropped an F-bomb, then shortly thereafter, an S-bomb. He’s seriously fed up with himself. He’s embarrassed. He knows he’s not pulling his weight, even as light as he is. He refuses to use his glorious past as a crutch, at one point acknowledging, “I’ve always believed it’s all about what you’ve done lately.” It sure is. The Giants are 2-7 in his nine starts, and just imagine how much better off they’d be if that figure were reversed.

I’m still firmly convinced Lincecum’s issues are mostly mental. You can’t be dominant for a stretch of innings and then all of a sudden lose it like he has in far too many starts. He has the arsenal, he has more than enough velocity. He just needs to get his head in the game, and pitch like the little spitfire Giants fans have come to know and revere the past five seasons. The Freak is still in there somewhere, and maybe our man Cowgill broke some critical adhesions by decking him on a good hard baseball play that will allow him to come out again.

Hey, maybe it’s totally off base, but you want another treatise on arm slots and release points? Didn’t think so.

—

Bruce Bochy said before the game that Aubrey Huff might get a start on the upcoming road trip and then Brandon Belt went out and assured it. Struck out three times, including once with the bases loaded on a Bartolo Colon cutter that tailed into the hit-me zone. Belt just watched it go by. Hey, Huff might have done the exact same thing, but the point is, Belt could have sealed his own short-term future and possibly Huff’s as well by putting that pitch in play somewhere, preferably in a gap.

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It wasn’t that bad of a homestand for Belt. He came up big in the 7-5 win against St. Louis. He also drove in three runs in the first game against Oakland with a single, a bases-loaded walk and a sac fly. But the weekend didn’t go nearly as well — 0 for 8 with five strikeouts. Saturday, he also struck out with the bases loaded in the first inning on pitch out of the strike zone.

That’s hardly the way you take the job and put Huff on the rails out of town. Brett Pill will likely start at first tonight with left-hander Randy Wolf slated to pitch the opener for host Milwaukee. But what about Tuesday? The bet here is that Huff starts. Bochy was not happy with that bases-loaded whiff with the bat on Belt’s shoulder. Yes, Angel Pagan had done the exact same thing the at-bat before, but Pagan was due for one of those ABs. The man had struck out just three times the entire month of May, had just 15 for the season, and Colon had thrown him a significantly nastier pitch on strike three than the one Belt saw.

Belt has 24 strikeouts in 79 at-bats. Excluding pitchers, he leads the team in strikeout ratio per at-bat. It might be forgiveable if he was hitting a few balls out of the yard. But he’s still stuck on zero home runs as well. Hasn’t hit one since last September.

When Bochy inserts Huff in the lineup this week, there will no doubt be a renewal of the hue and cry from Belt loyalists. Just remember, he’s had the better part of a month to slam the door on Huff in his absence, and while he’s had his moments, he just didn’t take enough advantage of this big opportunity.

—

You thought when Matt Kemp went down, the Dodgers might show some vulnerability this weekend. Instead, they swept the St. Louis Cardinals and two of the wins were walk-offs. They’re a full seven games free of the pack now. That’s a pretty sizeable lead at the quarter pole of the season, and I’m already hearing a few fans sizing up the wild card possibilities. Really?

The Giants are playing better baseball, no question. They’ve won six of eight. Their reward? They lost a game in the standings over that stretch. Hence, they have to keep playing good ball on this road trip and not let L.A. get too far out of sight. The Dodgers go on the road for a mere three games at Arizona to start the week, but then come back home for seven more, where they are a ridiculous 19-4.

The true measure of L.A. will come in June when it plays 19 of 28 away from Dodger Stadium, including three at AT&T late in the month. But if the Dodgers are up by 9 or 10 going into it, that stretch will look far less daunting. Get to July and they can realistically start looking at trades to fortify whatever shortcomings they may have.

I’m hardly sold on the Dodgers, but you can’t deny they’ve had a hell of a start. The Giants have their work cut out for them throughout the summer, which is just one reason Lincecum needs to get his act together. They can’t catch L.A. without him.

—

Alex will carry you through the road trip and beyond. As always, it’s been a pleasure.

Post navigation

All we want is for Belt to be able to stink it up for the ENTIRE SEASON. The same rope Huff had last year, the same rope Tejada had last year. That’s the only way to keep him from constantly looking over his shoulder, the only way to see if he’s any good.

As for Lincecum, he seems to get to 2 strikes that can’t put anyone away. It’s like they know he won’t throw the fastball, but I’m not going to try and guess what’s wrong with him as I really have no clue.

Chris

“”When Bochy inserts Huff in the lineup this week, there will no doubt be a renewal of the hue and cry from Belt loyalists. Just remember, he’s had the better part of a month to slam the door on Huff in his absence, and while he’s had his moments, he just hasn’t done it yet.”

There’a reason the “loyalists” get upset, and it’s because flawed, fallacious attitudes like the excerpt above shouldn’t inform player development, even at the major league level. And yet the lame excuses continue to limp in as to why Belt’s struggles are anything other than another one of Bochy’s self fulfilling prophecies.

Indeed. Will Clark never looked over his shoulder. He just took the job from Day 1. — Carl

OrangeAndBlack

If you had told me in Spring Training that Timmy’s ERA would be >= 6 and Zito’s <= 3 in late May I would not have believed it. If it wasn't already, it's now official: Timmy is holding this team back. The poor defense and intermittently hot/cold offense haven't helped but if Timmy had pitched better and we would have won two thirds of his 9 starts we would be right behind the Dodgers. I hope he gets it figured out soon, since there is not good solution if he doesn't.

While it's still too early to consider seriously, I wonder when this extended funk, together with the shorter funks he has had the past couple of years, will start affecting the size of his free agency contract a couple of years from now.

Orange Giants Jersey

Not sure who was more frustrating to watch, Belt or Timmy. Timmy needs to find his swagger (and concentration) again, while Belt needs to find his strike zone. Time to bring back Huff and see if he has any life left.

kris

Also as Belt’s yo-yo development is often compared to the Braves’ Freddie Freeman, it’s interesting to see what happened from May 13-15 of the last year.

Freeman went 0 for 11 with 7 K’s. His slash line at the time was .220/.320/.362

So what did the Braves do? They kept putting him out there, pretty much every day. They were rewarded. Will the same happen to Belt? Who knows. But it’s not like they have Prince Fielder on the bench.

Up late with The One That Won’t Sleep, and I can’t help but read the writing on the wall. Belt’s first struggles since given real time, and here comes the hook. Enter Huff, then Pill, then it will be back to square one.

Not worried about Tim too much, yet. But the scrutiny will ramp up soon, without doubt.

rayoflight

we’ve seen some good things from Belt in the last 10 days. Guy goes 0-8 over 2 games and Bochy throws him under the bus.

A tired, tired act that Bochy is.

Is that any way to bring up a young player?

My god this organization has core philosophical problems.

kris

“Indeed. Will Clark never looked over his shoulder. He just took the job from Day 1. — Carl”

See, that’s the problem. This whole idea of immediacy, that a young player has to take a job from day 1, or day 7, or even day 50. In June of 2010, Buster Posey went 2 for 27. If he did that coming out of the gate, maybe the Giants don’t think he’s ready, and immediately start phasing him out so Bengie can play more. Belt himself hit 2 home runs against the Marlins. Did that mean he took the job? Of course not. Whether it’s success or failure, we learn nothing from small samples sizes.

Moreover, the double standard is annoying. Look at Pagan at the beginning of this year. Or how Crawford has been given every chance to get over his error problems. Why Belt has to hit 4 grand slams every hour to stay in the lineup is beyond me.

Again, I would have no problem benching him if there was some stud hitter losing PT. But it’s Huffy and Pill. Huff won’t even be on the team next year. The risk of playing Belt everyday is you lose a couple more games this season. The reward is you develop a good 1B for the next 5 years, or find out once and for all he is a bust.

JD4SF

I tend to agree with Carl that much of Timmy’s problem is mental. IMO a lot of what is missing is the confidence that is stuttering as he struggles. The biggest issue is command, and there may be some fine tuning he can do.

Remember a few games back he started poorly, sat in the dugout between innings and watched himself on video, and walked back to the mound with a self-adjustment that really bumped up his velocity. There are lots of moving parts, but hopefully he (or Raggs, or SOMEONE) can spot something to help Timmy start firing on all cylinders again.

It sure didn’t look like his head was well focused on the game, and he got himself into that wreck at the plate.

Timmy just doesn’t look like Timmy. I’d be looking at all the Timmy puzzle pieces to see if something needs tweaking, not just mechanics. Things like nutrition, his fitness program, possible physical issues in his arm or elsewhere, stress, etc. I suspect Raggs has long since been all over this trying to find a solution, and hope we see a renewed Timmy next start.

4SeamSuzie

I think most of Timmy’s issues are mental. His body (through the natural aging process) is changing and things aren’t coming as easy for him as they once did and it scares him. I hope he finds his way but until he accepts the fact the he’s not the super ace he once was he’s going to struggle. Timmy’s biggest enemy right now is his ego.

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Go GIANTS!!!

4SeamSuzie

Also, Timmy could be smoking again. Lack of focus and fatigue are the all too familiar signs. And we all know he likes to partake.

4SeamSuzie

What is up with the Bums? They seem a little too good to me.

SurfCity

“Belt hasn’t taken the job.’

Ha, that’s a laugh. Like Huff has? Huff has not “taken the job” either and he’s had over a year’s tryout with awful results.

But I forgot – Huff doesn’t have to take the job because he’s a veteran. Stupidest line of thinking I’ve ever heard.

“Huff will only be playing in Left Field.” Remember when that was the gospel? (2 weeks ago)

Livefree

Seems clear to me … Belt has lost the job. Its a power position and he has no power. Problem is, there is no one else. Huff was done in August 2010. Pill is a hack …. for $130 mill Sabean doesnt have a first baseman, no backup infielders and no outfield power. For $130 mill. I dont think the wonder of that has sunk in.

bochy’s platoony tune adventures

While I love Belt, and think he will have a great ML career, at the same time, I’ve gotten sick of this whole thing.

Huff has done jack sh!t in 1 year+ of consistent playing time, and embarrassed the org after getting a big contract he showed up to ST 2011 out of shape. Came back this year, and abandoned the team. I don’t care if he had a panic attack. You don’t go AWOL, then go around saying “I feel much better, can I play again?”

Huff is done with the Giants, from my POV. This team isn’t going anywhere with this abomination of suck at 2B and SS (though props to Craw doing better lately) so why not just leave Belt in and see what he can do over a good 2 month period of everyday ABs?

Not all players arrive to the majors fully formed, in fact, that is very rare to have a Pablo and Posey come the way they did. You want to develop players, you got to go through the growing pains. That’s how baseball is.

Wineguy

The thing we most need is to know if Belt can be a MLB player. Is there improvement, how much potential upside?

Looking at Crawford, he is clearly adjusting and improving at the plate.
Hector Sanchez is as well.

Burriss, not so much.
Conor, 4A player tops.
Nate, the peak has come and gone.
Belt, still too soon to tell.

If a trade or Free agent signing is in our future the Giants must know what direction Belt will take, the ONLY way to know is by giving him a solid stretch of consistent playing time, like 2-3 months minimum.

GideonTownsend

You know what ….. I’m just not sure about anything that anyone’s said above me.

4SeamSuzie

Gideon – That makes two of us;)

Vegas Giants Fan

I would like to make a clarification to a post I made on the last thread. It was not my intention to imply that Jeff Kobernus be placed on the Giants current 25 man roster. I just happen to believe that he could have a fine career with the Giants in the next few years. In the spirit of the House rules I was voicing an opinion and not stating a fact.

Apeachofahand

When Mattie came up as a 3rd baseman he hit about .200 for a long stretch…he did have power and a great glove. Belt may be as good…might as well have a 3 month look.

E-B

Carl, thx for your pinch hits, and your candor.

——————————

I agree that Timmy’s issues seem to be mental/confidence/etc. Talent of his caliber and his track record don’t just disappear overnight, or even during the offseason.

Based on the ‘quality’ strikouts i.e., total swing&miss whiffs from hitters who look downright silly, I believe Timmy’s still got the goods.

His recent few starts look so promising in early innings w/ plenty of swing&miss punch-outs. His early season starts had similar quality in later innings, w/ just 1 bad 1st inning. Not a pattern consistent w/ physical problems/injuries.

As for his 25lb weight reduction somehow affecting his delivery? Yea, could be a factor. His faster lighter lower body might be reaching his landing point too quickly, rendering his arm/shoulder out of sync. But, I thought he solved that problem in a previous start (he watched film & made adjustment b4 returning to pitch 2inn, and did just fine after that). Well…unless the problem eeked back in as his mind wandered or as doubt crept in. Again, mental.

I do think though, for a guy who tends to lose 20lbs during the grind of a baseball season, putting on a little extra ‘good’ muscle mass (as opposed to just empty cholesterol calories belly fat) might be beneficial, just so he can maintain a steady body mass.

Also, read somewhere in the previous thread that Timmy swims now? Bet that’s great for his flexibility and overall muscle tone. It should actually help his pitching, assuming he incorporates it w/ his more typical biking/sprinting/weight training workout of last year. Only note I’d add is to be aware that swimming tends to develop the ‘endurance/distance’ vs. ‘impulse/bulk strength’ muscle fibers.

Carl, I recall a previous postgame notes, where you said (paraphrased) this kid has a ferocious competitive fire, among the best in you’ve witnessed in your 30+ years of sports reporting.

I think you’re correct on today’s game possibly being the catalyst for getting Timmy’s competitive fire to overwhelm any confidence or other issues he might be dealing with. When he gets that ‘look’ in his eye, he somehow by sheer will, makes things happen his way.

OK, Timmy, go KO them silly.

———————–

re: Belt/Huff/Pill for next week.

Not surprised at all that Bochy would give Huff a few starts in MIL. Hey, it’s a hitter’s park! It’s not like Kershaw in LA, or Halladay at ATT. Those are reserved for the other lefty, Belt, or the righty Pill. Not a chance we’ll see Huff against any Fish pitchers, RHP or LHP, in that h u g e Miami ballpark. Again, those are reserved for Belt/Pill.

imo, regardless of whether Belt put the ball in play today w/ bases loaded, Huff would still get the start in MIL, bcuz it’s a hitter’s park. Period.

Belt did not capitalize on the 2-out bases loaded 3-2 count today.
He should have at least put up a defensive block to foul off anything close to the SZ, but did you see that pitch? Sure looked like it was way off the plate, way too far inside, as it came outta Colon’s hand. But, it took a sharp sting back to the fat middle part of the plate just as it approached the catcher’s mitt. Honestly, I just tip my hat to old dog Colon. He got Pagan too, although, ump Joyce contributed to Pagan’s chasing pitches w/ his totally inconsistent call of pitch 1 & 2, which were essentially in the same location (width-wise).

Based on today alone, Belt’s in the doghouse for the MIL portion of the trip. His hits/2x’s, D of the previous couple of games don’t count. Maybe we’ll see him against Fish in that oceanic sized ballpark, where Stanton even has a hard time launching one in the stands.

Maybe what Belt should do what Huff does: roll the 1st/2nd pitch to 1B/2B/SS. He could secure 1B for an entire year, w/ the manager saying that he’ll ‘get it going’ soon. At least he won’t get blamed for striking out. (Isn’t that one what the veterans do to avoid being blamed for SO?)

OK, nuff said. getting kinda punchy at this hour.

(and, sorry PTD. I still always hope the 2010 Huff emerges, but lotsa doubt after all of 2011 + this year’s mental instability.)

———————–

over and out

Grammar Cop

I believe it is a “coincidence” Timmy pitched against Oakland last year, not “ironic”

I also believe ironic should be removed from the language until folks learn how to use the word.

Ceadderman

Meh, May hasn’t really been Timmy’s month. Not sweatin this and the Blahdgers will soon fall on their face.

Duck the Fodgers!

Crez

I always love you posts Carl. Thanks for not sugar coating it, so refreshing in this age of suck-up-sporting-press. You and Alex are awesome, always a highlight of my day.

—

I really hope you’re onto something with Lincecum being “woken up” by that hit. I thought the same thing as I was watching him pull himself together afterwards.

—

Kruk and Kuip were talking about Belt on the radio the other day, saying he needs to start hitting for more power. I completely agree, as I’m sure we all do. I’ve been rooting for Belt since day one, and I really want to see him turn into the player we all thought he’d be, just not at the expense of hits with RISP. Just takes time I guess, but man, let’s see some homers!

—

I loved the Weeze in the booth today. Hopefully that becomes a more common occurrence.

—

Whatever with the Dodgers, as real as they’re starting to look. They’re sure to falter at some point.

Lotsa good stuff on Twitter. I find my first word on many breaking stories from Twitter.

Foothills Ryan

Say Giants fans,

Let’s try a new game. It’s called indifference.

You don’t expect much from Timmy. A few good innings, some bad ones. An ERA over 5 (or 6). Feel free to let out a smattering of boos. It is 20 mil (sort of your money if you’re a good fan in Larry Baer’s books). Pretend he’s cooked mentally or whatever. You don’t expect much, so you don’t care. Sort of Zitoesque.

You don’t expect much from Belt. His prospect status is overstated. Pretend he’s pretty much Travis Ishikawa. It’s not the sky that is the limit, it’s pretty much the outfield warning track.

Now that we’ve taken the pressure of these guys (and yourself in the process) let’s see what happens. Couldn’t hurt.

primetimedonna

E=B

No offense taken! As I said on the other thread, I really feel that Huff and Pill both are being given playtime not as a punishment to Belt, but to try to give them at bats to get them engaged as Pinch hitters. That is all that Belt has “opened the door to”. IMO the job is Belt’s but they are trying to shore up the bench. Bochy said a few days ago that with Pill he needed at bats because as a young player you couldn’t expect him to just come off the bench without having some regular at bats. With Huff they need to do the same since he hasn’t had any regular at bats since coming off the DL.

The only reason Huff’s starts will come at 1B instead of LF is that Blanco has really being doing a great job and they don’t want to disrupt the balance in the OF right now, or the benefits he brings to the Lead off position. If the at bats help us to have some power coming off the bench that will benefit the team. Just a little perspective. Of course if Belt were really taking charge at the moment this decision would have been tougher. But it still isn’t a move to “overthrow” Belt at 1B. As I said, that’s my opinion.

Bud

Even if you don’t like Belt, how can anyone look at the last year and a half and come away with the idea that Huff is somehow going to be an improvement? When Belt is bad he is the same as when Huff is good. When Belt is good, he’s dramatically better than when Huff is good. When you throw in the exponential defensive upgrade that Belt provides, the only logical choice is to keep playing Belt and limit Huff to PH duty if you must keep him on the roster.

If the Giants decide Belt isn’t good enough, then they need to go out and get someone else who isn’t on the team right now. Looking for Huff to be an answer is crazy.

midasmicah

Get well, Timmy. Go Giants.

No Longer Long Suffering Giants Fan

Holy crap! Did someone actually compare Belt to Will Clark? You know why Clark didn’t have to look over his shoulder; HE WAS GOOD, right from the get-go. Belt has shown nothing but an ability to draw a few walks. Even on his hits, he hardly ever drives the ball. His two doubles in one game last week were a bloop and a single he hustled into a double. However, instead of the corpse known as Aubrey Huff, how about giving Hector Sanchez some more AB’s. He can play 1st base. He drives in RUNS. 12 rbi in 66 AB’s; one more than Belt in 30 less AB’s and as many as Pagan, our hottest hitter, in 110 less AB’s!!! NO, instead we get to watch Brett Pill. Bochy loves him because he can hit a mistake fastball down the middle. New flash: that’s the only pitch he can hit. It seems like he swings in the same spot all the time and if the ball happens to be there great.

chikentorta

I agree.on belt Carl. He’s getting his chances and not grabbing the reins. It’s not like he came into the season with first base locked up. He’s.fortunate huff had a melt down and in my eyes has not even done 30% off what he needs to do to lock down the position. The defense and the on base percentage are nice but the lack of power and the strikeouts are glaring. This team desparately needs some better pop. It’s pathetic

chikentorta

Bud, the difference is huff did it two years ago and throughout a career and that is why you give it a shot. Belt has only showed it in minor league launching pads

Say What

GrammerCop – while you are removing words how about:
Iconic;
Legendary;
a myriad of;
the moronic Awsome;
and ban anbody that uses more than one ! or ?.

Aureas

Only three games ago (Thursday night’s wrap up): “Big Day for Team Brandons” Today: “Belt Leaves Door Open for Huff”
I mean, Schizophrenia, thy name is Giants Extra (yeah, I know…Alex v. Carl…but still)…Belt is doing fine, he’s taking his at bats, has struggled a bit, but he’s getting on base, he’s driving the ball better (Sac Fly = driving the ball, folks).
Here’s the thing that really irked me about Carl’s article: how in the name of the baseball gods, could you possibly be more upset by Belt’s SO than Pagan’s? Let’s see: Pagan had only one out…any good contact could have scored a run. Pagan saw some filthy pitches (from the SAME pitcher Belt faced, and they were just as filthy). Pagan, in the same situation on Saturday (1st inning, bases loaded) popped out…so, in two days, Pagan came to the plate twice in major run scoring roles, and failed. Belt came to bat in extremely high pressure situations (and yes, that is where you want a kid to perform) and did not succeed…well, BENCH HIM FOREVER and say he’s a spoiled package…because of two ABs…in a season of 162 games! Meanwhile, Pagan gets a pass, because….he’s Pagan? He’s allowed to strikeout…not really sure the justification there.

Lefty

chikentorta says:
May 21st, 2012 at 7:21 am

“Bud, the difference is huff did it two years ago and throughout a career and that is why you give it a shot.”

I would say that all of 2011 and the first month of 2012 comprised “a shot” for Huff.

“Belt has only showed it in minor league launching pads.”

Not true. He hit nine home runs in 187 major league ABs last year, including a three-run shot to dead-center in Dodger Stadium off a good pitcher (Chad Billingsley), two home runs in the same game in Miami (one off a tough lefty reliever), and a splash hit at AT & T. None of those major league parks are “launching pads.”

Meanwhile, while Huff was getting his “shot” last year, he hit 12 home runs in nearly 600 ABs, 25% in the same game in a hitter-friendly park in St. Louis.

https://twitter.com/#!/GoofusMcP Goofus

How was Lincecum’s coverage of home “half-hearted”? Looked to me like he was right there and not shying away. I though they would have had him if he’d managed to hang onto the ball. It certainly wasn’t a Benito Santiago “matador” tag.

Gamertude

#22, Bochy’s Platoon Adventures is Right. It seems like most of the fans on here get it. So Belt has a terrible weekend and now he’s in the dog house losing ABs to the corpse of Aubrey Huff? Because Huff has been playing so well and clearly deserves playing time? Please.

We all seem to agree that if there was a viable alternative at 1B we could accept Belt riding some more pine, but Aubrey Huff is the antithesis of a viable option at 1B. He’s a washed up veteran who snuck one homer over the wall against Pittsburgh and has done nothing for over a year…not merely 84 ABs. It’s a complete double standard to allow Crawford and Posey as many ABs as needed but yank Belt out of the lineup after one bad weekend. Maybe Belt is not the 1B of the future we all hoped, but we HAVE to find out and now is the time given no other options over there.

Also, how quickly we forget the defensive problems of this team to which Brandon Belt has saved our infielders from several more errors. Good luck with Huff’s stiff old body maneuvering around there. Given the state of the Giants minor league system and big league offense, it is in the organization’s best interest to let Belt play and see what we have. Aubrey Huff is not the answer unless you are asking a very misguided question.

CO

Every time you see Timmy he’s hiding his face with a hooded sweatshirt. In the dugout, during interviews, around town etc. It seems to me that he has some serious self confidence/image issues. He is hiding behind the hoodie. This is common behavior for people that lack confidence or are insecure with themselves. Seems to me his issues may be deeper than baseball.

Say Hey

Belt’s never done anything to earn the type of babying so many people seem to want to see. Player development is for the minors.

Freddie Freeman has driven in 32 runs, is hitting .268, has a slugging percentage of .484. Belt has driven in 11 runs, is hitting .241 with a slugging percentage of .354. Freeman played through a small slump. Belt’s entire season is a slump. Stupid comparison.

Aubrey Huff got slack last year because he’s had multiple major league seasons far better than anything Belt has done. But the question is not Huff vs. Belt. It’s can the Giants find a first baseman who can hit for power and drive in runs. And the answer isn’t on their roster at the moment.

Free Belt. Trade his ass.

Theresa

I’m a bit over the Free Belt movement…like anyone cares, but I am.

I’d like to see Arias stay when Sandoval comes back. He’s a young player who has come through.

#47, I understand the frustration from those tired of waiting for Belt. But the other question is WHO do you play at 1B now? You think trading him now is the best alternative in which any GM, especially Sabean, would get very little in return? Do you think we can find a legit 1B off the scrap heap or via trade? If you present a legitimate alternative to 1B fine, but Huff and Pill are not legit alternatives. “Just go get one” is not a legitimate alternative either.

Lefty

Oh, and P.S.: That three-run homer off Billingsley was in Belt’s second major league game–one day later than Will Clark, if you really want to go there.

I love Carl, but the Will Clark comparison is fallacious. Here’s the most significant difference: Roger Craig didn’t have to sit a veteran to whom he was loyal to make Clark his starting first baseman. Craig took over in the middle of the 1985 season, so he was still new there at the beginning of 1986. Also, the Giants lost 100 games in 1985, so Craig had carte blanche to try new things and play the youngsters. They had no place to go but up.

Bochy–and I’m trying to be fair to him here–is in a completely different situation. The team has been on an upswing for several years with three winning seasons, a World Series title, and over 100 consecutive sellouts. There is very little patience for development or rebuilding or slumps (and if you don’t believe me, read the comments yesterday that suggested making Tim Lincecum a setup man so that Brad Penny could take his spot in the rotation).

More than that is Bochy’s own history with the team. He has been here since 2007. He’s developed relationships with the players, especially a veteran leader like Aubrey Huff. (When a player is texting you shirtless photos every week in the off-season to prove he is working out, you know there is a close bond.) He’s also been managing Barry Zito and Tim Lincecum since 2007, which is why you’re not going to see him giving up on either one of them, either.

Huff has made it clear in recent days that he wants to start and that he isn’t considering retirement after this season. He’s not, in other words, “accepting” the “veteran guy off the bench” role that some of us hoped he would. He’s making it hard on Bochy. (I don’t really blame Huff for this, either. The guy has a $10 million option he’s playing for, or failing that, the chance to get a job next year with another team. He’s not going to get either of those chances being Belt’s cheerleader in the dugout.)

If Aubrey Huff were not on the team, the narrative on Brandon Belt would be different. It would be like…wait for it…Brandon Crawford! –who, by the way, has righted his ship defensively and has improved offensively as his manager stuck with him and let him play through it.
But this was not the case last year when Bochy had veteran shortstops Tejada and O. Cabrera to choose from.

Our Team

Belt has plenty of talent to be a good hitter in the Majors; it’s his swing that needs work. Pitchers have figured out that he doesn’t extend to cover the outside portion of the plate and so he swings through the belt high fastball over the outside corner regularly. Then, he already had trouble with the breaking ball over the inside half. You can’t have two holes like that in your swing and be effective at the major league level. He needs to adjust his swing so he can hit the outside fastball the opposite way. Part of that is the way he grips the bat; he needs to adjust that to give himself more extension. The guy is 6 5″ and he can’t cover the outside part of the plate with his bat bc of his grip. The other part is that he needs to change his approach to go to left field more. It doesn’t matter how many abs he gets, if he doesn’t change these issues he won’t succeed. I think he has a lot of talent but you have to make the adjustments to thrive in any pro sport and Belt hasn’t done that yet.

http://thewisdomcow.blogspot.com/ The Wisdom Cow

Berkman may have torn his ACL. StL’s top three of Beltran, Berkman, and Furcal looked real good for a while. This, however is what happens when you ride the “experience” train, especially with three chronic DL players. Remember the juggernaut they were believed to be just 10 games ago, prior to this 2-8 slide?

Theresa

@Gamertude, the problem is, I don’t have a good alternative….I’m not confident in Huff or Pill or Belt.

Bochy’s Daddy

Wineguy @ #23: Could not agree more. Good post—well stated. Now, if we could only get someone above Sabean to read it!

http://thewisdomcow.blogspot.com/ The Wisdom Cow

Lefty, but 0-8, even with 5Ks, isn’t exactly a slump. It’s two games.

—————————-

“Well, er, eh, Pagan and Pablo both put together 20 game hit streaks. Eh. Belt just hasn’t stepped up his game. Two games in a row without hits. Er, uh. Huff only does that 3 times a week, 4 if there’s a double header. I’m going to give hi a start or two.”

I know you can’t play two players in the same spot in the order, and I like what Crawford is doing in the 2 spot, but Belt was moved right back to an RBI spot instead of getting the chance to have some protection while working things out. I’m not saying to move him back into the 2 spot. I’m just looking at LU positioning and protection aspects. Two games!

——————————-

Grammar Cop, I’m still waiting for someone to light Jim Rome on fire.

Lefty

Say Hey says:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:10 am

“Freddie Freeman has driven in 32 runs, is hitting .268, has a slugging percentage of .484. Belt has driven in 11 runs, is hitting .241 with a slugging percentage of .354. Freeman played through a small slump. Belt’s entire season is a slump. Stupid comparison.”

OK, if it’s a “stupid comparison,” why did you make it? I’ll play:

Freddie Freeman has 837 plate appearances and 752 ABs and has hit 29 home runs.

Brandon Belt has 305 PAs and 266 ABs and has hit nine home runs. If you project out his PAs/ABs to Freeman’s, the homers are pretty close–especially if Belt’s ABs were uninterrupted, as Freeman’s have been, by trips to the minors and week-long sojourns on the bench.

Also, and you conveniently omitted this stat, Belt’s OBP, even after two bad games, is .354–which, guess what, is HIGHER than Freddie Freeman’s .337. A .354 OBP is hardly a “season-long slump.” His OBP is fifth on the team (after Blanco, Melky, Pablo, & Posey) and better than Pagan, Huff, Pill, Nate (and everyone else).

We’d all like more production out of Belt, but if you’re going to cherry-pick stats, at least be fair about what he has done well. Actually, a lot of players on the roster have been much worse offensively than he has. He’s about in the middle.

Aureas

#47 Say Hey
RE: Freeman: Look at how the Braves handled him through his slump…benched him? Nope…played him…let him work it out…and he’s now producing nicely.
RBIs mean little to nothing: Freeman plays with a team that has an above-average offense, so he’s going to get ribeyes…Belt’s will come with playing time. Meanwhile, Belt’s OBP is higher…so at this moment, we’re looking at two 1Bs…one slugging decently (Freeman, in a supportive, offensive environment) and one who is trying to get on base and figure everything out (in highly sporadic ABs with mountains of pressure to perform now – Belt).
I’m a fan of both teams, and can tell you, if the Gigantes could possibly give Belt as much rope as Freeman has gotten, I see him doing as well or better long term.

Aureas

LOL, Lefty beat me to the OBP point:
PS – Freeman’s down to .326 OBP, according to BB-ref.

Our Team

CO, yes I think you are exactly right. When Tim was cited for speeding and was smoking marijuana at 10 in the morning while driving his car that was a sign that there are deeper personal issues going on with him than we all realize. If it had been 10 at night it wouldn’t have sounded the same alarm to me. Whatever his personal issues are, I think it’s tremendous that he’s overcome them to this point and is a real testament to his talent and competitiveness. It’s why he’s my favorite player and I’m confident he will wrestle these issues and become dominant once again. In the meantime, it’s high drama when he’s on the mound watching him try to fight these confidence and focus obstacles.

Our Team

WC, no it’s Matheny’s fault.

Lefty

Goofus at 8:07:

“How was Lincecum’s coverage of home “half-hearted”? Looked to me like he was right there and not shying away.”

Thanks for saying that. I was watching the game and had the same reaction to that sentence. In fact, Lincecum told Posey where the ball was, hustled to the plate, put himself in harm’s way, and took a very hard hit. I wish he wouldn’t do that, actually (or any of the pitchers). Thank God he was not seriously injured.

CO: Lincecum has always sported the hoodie. I think he was wearing one when he won his first Cy Young and went to the park for a press conference on short notice. So I don’t think the hoodie signifies a new loss of confidence. It’s just his look.

Carl, you know what? This was a pretty cranky post. It comes across like you were annoyed with Lincecum and Belt for ruining your day and wanted to trash them in your writeup. Giving Pagan a free pass for striking out looking in the exact same situation on the same pitch from the same pitcher while savaging Belt seems biased. If anything, Pagan’s failure was worse because of his experience and because there was only one out. The #5 hitter HAS to make something happen there. And suggesting Timmy was somehow dogging it on the play to the plate just doesn’t pass the eye test.

(And yeah, I know–my refund for what I paid to read the blog post on the Internet is in the mail. I’m still a big fan.)

pimetimedonna

Lefty

“Huff has made it clear in recent days that he wants to start and that he isn’t considering retirement after this season. He’s not, in other words, “accepting” the “veteran guy off the bench” role that some of us hoped he would.”

Been busy between regular work and the ballpark……haven’t seen any articles or interviews indicating the above. Do you have links?

thanks

pacman68

Another thing that Alex doesn’t mention is the past 4 games with Belt starting everyday … the Giants scored 21 runs, split the series with the World Champs and took a series from Oakland. Did Belt have a bad three games. Yes. But isn’t that expected from a young player? The thing that concerns me is the power outage. I can’t explain it.

What I get from Alex’s post. THE FIX IS IN. Huff will get his everyday starting role back and the team will tank. Alex, have you watched Huff at all last year and the beginning of this year? I’m still doubting the Huff mental collapse. Funny that it came after a horrendous game and being so awful for the beginning of the season.

One more thing. I don’t think Sabean would have said Crash and Burn about Huff if he actually had a mental problem. By using those words … Sabean has told us that it was something else that was bothering Huff. Even by Sabean standards…that’s pretty cruel thing to say about someone suffering from a disease. My friend has anxiety disorder and we never say he crashed and burned. That term is usually used for someone with a drinking disorder or someone who just quit and couldn’t take it anymore.

This is just my thought.

The Oracle

The Belt situation, at this point, is just tiring. Let’s see what happens. An occasional start for Huff, to keep him as sharp (as he can be), isn’t a big deal. Giving him significant playing time would be a tired joke. Yes, Belt had a bad weekend at the plate, but on Friday he had 3 RBI. He remains the best alternative at first base even at his current level of production, with the hope that consistent playing will bring about improvement. Bochy HAS been giving him more consistent time recently (4 consecutive starts, with 3 wins), so maybe that will continue. I’m going to save my hyperventilating until I see that Huff is once again becoming an everyday player.

pacman68

Sorry, I meant Carl not Alex.

pimetimedonna

Lefty

You beat me to it! The hoodie is Tim’s fashion choice probably 90% of the time, and has been around forever……nothing to do with hiding self confidence issues!

Sketch

Your overrating OBP when it comes to a first baseman…ill take Freeman with 7 more homers and 21 more RBIS…thats called a threat at the plate , middle of the order hitter and legitimate 1B…i dont need some slappy playing at the corner just cause he can draw a few walks here and there…OPS is a much better indicator for a corner infielder and Freeman is over 100 points higher than Belt….about the only thing separating Belt and Emmanuel Burris’ numbers is a few doubles…and they all want to DFA him…

pimetimedonna

The Oracle @8:53

Agree 100%!!!!!!

pimetimedonna

Pacman

You lose some of your moral ground on your Belt should play all the time argument with the personal attacks. Keeping it between the white lines is fair game. The rest is beneath you.

pacman68

Another thing that Carl fails to mention is the BIG BLACK HOLE that is SECOND BASE!

How come none of these beat writers talk about how bad Burriss is and how the Giants really need someone to take over second. Freddy is done and is not coming back.

Carl, what are the Giants going to do about second? Are they going to keep marching incompetent Burriss out there?

One last thing about Belt – He is the anchor to the infield defense. Take him away and Crawford’s errors go through the roof.

Dusty76

Carl – great blog, but they’ve won 5 of 8, and 6 of 9, not 6 of 8.. and they still haven’t swept a series this year.

totalfan62

Lefty: great stuff this morning. Four strong posts articulating what many of us are thinking. Thanks for saying it with clarity, passion and balance.

Long-time baseball fans know that every team–and many of their players–goes through streaks and slumps. The knee-jerk reactions to a bad game or two should be avoided. This is not a video game–it’s real life and we all need to get behind our guys and give them support and encouragement.

Given everything we have endured so far this season, I’m very happy to be a game over .500 at the quarter pole. We’ll have Pablo back in the lineup within three weeks, the bullpen will sort itself out, and we’ll figure out what we need in the middle infield. We just need the Dodgers to hit a tough patch, and they will.

Thanks Lefty.

pacman68

In other news

Jamie Moyer will become first man ever to pitch in 50 ballparks tonight.

http://mercurynews.com/giants/blogs The Ol’Warden

Timmy – paralysis through analysis.

Perhaps oversimplification but, I believe it applies in this instance.
Timmy will straighten it out.

Lefty

Donna:

Here’s a link to the Chronicle article I read on Huff a couple days ago:

Does anyone know if Baggs is on vacation or taking a day or two off? Notice his last post of CSNBA is over a day ago, and that there have been several articles by Paul Gutierrez (is he Amy G’s husband?) since then.

Lefty

Oh, and Donna: Just to reiterate what I said in my lengthy earlier post. I don’t blame Huff for wanting to play.

Lefty

Sketch: If our choice was between Belt and Freeman at first base right now, I would agree with your analysis! But it is not.

Skweezplay

Belt is sorting it out, stick with him and let him play. When Pablo returns, move Arias to 2B. Until then, it would be great to find someone other than Burriss and no-range Theriot. I really like Culberson but he’s not able to play at this level.

Lincicum needs to rededicate himself and put the work in.

This Dodgers run is getting ridiculous. They’re not that good.

doublejay

When Belt needs to put the ball in play he takes a called third with the bat on his shoulder…enough said.

Slash78

Will Clark never had to look over his shoulder because there was never anyone over his shoulder.

Even Posey had to look over his shoulder. He didn’t hit anything in 2009. In 2010 he had a .695 OPS the day Molina was traded. .285/.313/.384, 10 RBI, 1 Career HR. Not bad for a catcher. NOT Rookie-of-the-Year material. NOT “the chosen one to lead his team to their first WS Title in over 50 years”. 102 PA and while he was 6-for-12 in May with 2 2B and 4 RBI, he had only a .630 OPS in all of June. But he did become the ROY and did lead his team to the WS. But only AFTER Molina was gone and he no longer had to look over his shoulder. AFTER he was moved from 1B to Catcher.

The Narrative was that he “grabbed his opportunity”. No, people were shocked when they traded Molina because Posey was slumping. That and he had only 6 starts at Catcher. Only 2 since being called up 29 games before.

I don’t fault Belt for going down looking. He has to lay off the inside pitch. And Colon’s inside pitches have a lot of run on them. More movement back to the plate in many others. That’s why he’s been effective. And you had to figure that as bad as the first two games were that someone would pitch effectively for Oakland.

Again, Posey played 27 of 29 games after he came up in 2010. 102 PA, .695 OPS, 1 HR, 10 RBI. Belt has started 22 of 41 games. 96 PA. .709 OPS, 0 HR, 11 RBI. Yeah, Belt isn’t lighting the world on fire…yet…but he’s not getting the consistant playing time Posey did. Nor is Belt starting in Hitter Friendly parks either. Do you people really think he’s happy with how he’s doing? Do you people really think that Belt doesn’t know that hitting HRs is the ONLY why he’ll stay in the lineup? He does. Bochy, but trying to “limit the pressure” is instead pilling it high. This is normal pressure. It’s abnormal. Baseball is a game of failure. But with every failure Belt is looking at days, if not weeks on the bench.

Sandoval didn’t have to look over his shoulder either. There was no one. No backup catcher, no 3B. He did slump bad half way through the first month of 2009. They played him. He rewarded them by hitting. And hitting. And hitting. There were as many alternatives to him in early 2009 as their are to him in 2012. None. And speaking of Sandoval, don’t we remember why Pablo didn’t win ROY in 2009? Because he had less then a dozen too many PA to qualify. Why? Bochy played him trying to “win now” even after the season was lost in 2008. Actually the season had been lost out of ST and Bochy’s decisions throughout the year didn’t help. But because Bochy tried to win a handful of meaningless games at the end of 2008 Pablo didn’t qualify for 2009 ROY.

pimetimedonna

Lefty

Thanks for the link…..hadn’t seen that. Interesting. As you say @9:23 can’t blame him for saying it, but still don’t think it will be more than an occasional start before and possibly during the bench role. Guess you wouldn’t expect any player to say “yeah, that’s me, a bench warmer pinch hitter”, especially after a long career starting. And guess you wouldn’t expect him to go down without a fight, but reality will be setting in. And in the right frame of mind, pinch hitting for an old DH player doesn’t seem like that big or tough a stretch. Still think he can settle into the role with the occasional (very occasional) start in the right circumstances. Hopefully that’s the way it will go.

stickman

Problem at first base? Call up Decker. Been saying it for weeks now. One way and another Bochy has gotten inside Belt’s head. Kid has talent. Bochy is almost as yesterday as Huff. Personally, i’m coming more and more to the POV that one or the other goes.

Stan

Bay Area Sports Guy blog posted a link to my post in February where I say his losing weight isnt a good thing-this is the shortest version of my writing.
You all know that hamburger diet stuff is a smoke screen ,right?

Lefty

Donna, Pac, & Oracle: I’m somewhere in between all of you on what happens next with Belt & Huff. I’m not convinced that Huff is just going to get an occasional start to keep him sharp for pinch-hitting and that Belt has won the job. I’m also not convinced that the “fix is in” on Huff being re-installed as the everyday starter at 1B.

Rather, I think we’re going back to that awkward place from the first few weeks of the season before Huff went on the DL: Bochy half-heartedly commits to Belt (like he did before the opening weekend). Belt has a bad game or two, looking bad on a couple ABs. Bochy feels bad if he sits Huff (or Nate), and he doesn’t like Huff in the outfield (good call), so Huff gets the starts instead of Belt, with Pill inserted against lefties. Huff struggles so Belt gets in (against a Cy Young winner), doesn’t impress either, so the cycle begins again. Huff struggles because he’s been struggling, and Belt and Pill struggle because neither gets a chance to “get it going” (to use Bochy’s favorite phrase).

Oh, and let’s not forget the “put Posey in at 1B” option. I hope we’re at least beyond THAT.

Huff wants to play. Understandable. Bochy likes Huff. If Belt were hitting over .300 and driving the ball, there would be no question, I”m sure. But Belt is in a gray area–contributing but not with power numbers, good some days, bad other days. So it makes it harder for Bochy to say no to Huff and easier for him to justify sitting Belt so that Huff can play. And there you have it.

With those options, you know–whoever above suggested having Hector Sanchez learn to play 1B, that’s not the worst idea I’ve ever read.

SurfCity

It’s an interesting theory:

“Of course if Belt were really taking charge at the moment this decision would have been tougher.”

But the fact that Huff hasn’t taken charge all year and all of last year never seems to have any bearing. I’m not sure why. It took Huff going AWOL from the team to finally get him out of the line-up. Otherwise I’m sure he’d still be getting regular starts, despite no offense.

Stan

Now my predicting Lincecums woes in February is pretty good. Dont you think?

Lefty

One last thought on this. Belt is caught between the past (Huff) and the future (the possibility of Posey or one of the other catching prospects or even Sandoval playing 1B long-term). The team doesn’t want to commit to Belt now (because what does that say to/about Huff) or later (because what do they do with Buster/Pablo/the other catchers).

That suggests the Giants should either convert Belt to an outfielder or trade him.

SurfCity

Bud says:
May 21st, 2012 at 6:16 am

Even if you don’t like Belt, how can anyone look at the last year and a half and come away with the idea that Huff is somehow going to be an improvement? When Belt is bad he is the same as when Huff is good. When Belt is good, he’s dramatically better than when Huff is good. When you throw in the exponential defensive upgrade that Belt provides, the only logical choice is to keep playing Belt and limit Huff to PH duty if you must keep him on the roster.

If the Giants decide Belt isn’t good enough, then they need to go out and get someone else who isn’t on the team right now. Looking for Huff to be an answer is crazy.

========

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lefty

Slash: Excellent post, especially the part about Posey.

“I don’t fault Belt for going down looking. He has to lay off the inside pitch.”

So Belt gets faulted for the “hole in his swing” but then criticized when he doesn’t swing. Meanwhile, a much more experienced hitter (Pagan) gets a free pass for doing the same thing. Sheesh.

orangeandblack

Wow! I was also wondering if the hit might jar loose some of the Timmy greatness we’ve seen in the not-too-distant past. His dad told Lurie the kid needs to pitch inside more. The comment from Boche was telling – he’s undoubtedly told Timmy it privately in the past, and the day is coming when Timmy starts losing batters in the fourth and Boche will turn it into a bullpen game right there. At least give us a ‘quality start’.

Woj

Totally agree that there has been a lack of coverage of the Giants huge 2B problems.
I don’t need to read the 9th article this year stating the Latin Tin Man Sanchez is a week away, 2 weeks away, 10 days away, a month away blah blah away from coming back. Note to Pav/Baggs/other posters – He’s done! He was hurt when we got him &he’s been always injured & grossly overpaid. A ‘vet’ like that is not the answer now or in the near future at 2B.

The healthy option at 2B is Burriss who has a slugging % the exact same as his very low batting average nearly 2 months into the season. He muffs key plays in the field too. Duane Kupier was often criticized for his lack of power but even he hit a double or triple occasionally, Burriss’ has NO power at all & worse than Kuiper. The man does not have an extra base hit on his for the season and lost all credibility with me when he’s hitting behind a pitcher in the lineup and tried to bunt! for a base hit with a runner at second base and 2 outs. Man up and drive him in or get me someone who will.

Theriot isn’t good either.

The Giants NEED some pop and a second baseman who can hit. I bet Jeff Kent retired for 4 years is still better than any of these guys Bochy has to choose from at 2B.

3rdKing

Nice piece but one thing is for sure, Lincecum does not have the same stuff he had in 2008,2009. He now has the third best stuff on the staff. His dumbass should have taken the contract offer, now he’ll be lucky to get three years and 20 per. Thanks for everything Timmy, enjoy New York or Boston.

For being such a crappy team, they are in great shape.

Go Giants

primetimedonna

Lefty

Understand where you are coming from, but still think the starts for Huff will be few and far between. Love him, but don’t think there is much chance he really grabs the job from Belt. Still think this gives Bochy his opportunity to give “a few starts”. For what it’s worth, that is my opinion. Will take a few at bats away from Belt, as will Pill, but think the Posey experiment is waning. Belt will still be our starting 1B. May not start everyday, but enough days to get him going.

primetimedonna

Surf City

All I meant was that 1B would not have even had room for the OCCASIONAL starts by Huff or Pill had Belt been tearing things up. That doesn’t mean he’s going to lose the job!

SF Giants Tommy

Woj, I think it is safe to say that Burris/Theroit/Random AAA call up with be our 2nd baseman until the trading deadline. If the Giants are threatening for the playoffs then I’d bet we see some movement from someone with track record. If not, then the point is moot.

I wish Freddie would come back, as that would resolve several issues. Sad reality is that ship has likely sailed. Wish that guy the best.

stickman

Our Team @52: Intriguing post. Clearest and most probable analysis i’ve yet seen regarding Belt’s bat-handling and swing. Either you are a very close video observer, or have quite a bit of direct BB experience ~ perhaps both.

So my question is this: If a poster on this blog can come up with insights which strike me as being both logical and sensible, then what is holding back Bam-Bam, Clark and Bochy from making the same observations and spending some time with Brandon to realign his approach?

3rdKing

that is funny….

Belt hasn’t taken the job?

Huff isn’t even around or cares about the job,,,,,but we are going to put him right back in his spot….SABOCHEYED!!1

And still I ask. What are the Giants going to do about second base? Why are we talking about Huff and Belt when Burriss is unwatchable? The Riot is no better.

Giants cannot contend with a horrible second basemen. They already have a weak hitting SS and First baseman.

SF Giants Tommy

Sorry, let me self edit my previous post. Add Arias to the 2B mix when Pablo is back at 3B (hopefully less than 3 weeks). If Arias can cover 3B defensively, he should be fine at 2B. Offensively he is far superior to Burriss/Theriot.

primetimedonna

Pac

Don’t you think Arias may be a solution? Even if he is not that impressive with the bat, he holds his own.

SurfCity

PTD, My opinion is that it shouldn’t be a priority for the Giants to give Huff at-bats simply so he can find a job next year. That doesn’t help build the Giants. That doesn’t help win games. Even if it’s couched into a “oh it’s only a few starts” argument I still don’t buy it. Huff is not owed starts. He’s owed a modicum of respect for his contributions to the World Series year 2 years ago – the last time he was productive. And if he accepted his bench-veteran role, that’s what he’d get from me.

But that good stretch 2 seasons ago does not buy him starts now at the expense of the team. If you’re thinking of what’s best for the team, Huff is not the answer. And these commenters saying “just give Huff a shot” are ignoring the fact that he’s had a shot: all of this season before he went AWOL and all of last year and he did not produce, did not “grab” his shot and do something with it.

I commented a couple of weeks ago that if Huff and Bochy accepted the role of bench veteran for Huff, then I was fine with this being his swan song year and that there would really be no reason for criticism. But they’re indicating now, by giving this information to the press, that they’re not willing to do that. Bochy is saying he’s going to start Huff. And in my opinion the top reason is to help Huff get a job next year with someone else. Because we can be rather certain that Sabean is not going to re-sign Huff for next year.

mikey

the a’s definitely got a good scouting report on lincecum. they were laying off all of his change ups like they knew it was coming. lincecum used to able to throw the changeup for a strike. he’s not throwing strikes. a lot of pitches were hitting the dirt. which means i think he is struggling with velocity.

pacman68

primetimedonna

Yeah, I can live with Arias but it seems his bat has gone into a funk as well. I’m not sold on Arias like everyone else is. The defense has gotten a lot better these past four games and I think that is do to the constant playing of our young players. It seems that Crawford has settled down but I’m sure Crawdad likes having Belt over there.

SurfCity

More succinctly, Huff has not earned “OCCASIONAL starts.” Starting him is not in the interest of the Giants. It’s simply Bochy and Huff trying to get Huff a job next year.

Anti-Lasorda

Some on the board though the Giants should have paid Fielder and traded Timmy for prospects for salary room to do it.

How much better would the club look right now?

Belt is serviceable at 1B, but IMO he’s shown he’s not much more than a 23 year old Ishikawa….. That more than anything else will determine the necessity to trade Timmy for a bat to play 1B.

Crawford seems to be turning it around in the 2 hole. BA up to .234 and doesn’t seem to be Fresno bound anymore. He’s hitting .270 in his last 10 games after hitting Rock Bottom. That’ll do Brandon, that’ll do……

Even signing Melky at around $13M per, and locking the Budget at $117M, you can’t replace a starting OF, 2B AND 1B for $13M. The club will need budget room, and that means either releasing Wheezy, or trading Timmy or Zito (which might be possible if he keeps this up and with only 12 months left on his deal)

If the club would have bitten the bullet in the summer, the prospect load would have been much better. Now, Sabean would be lucky as hell to get the Latos deal for Timmy…

My bet is your looking at a veteran 1B to give you what you’re hoping to get out of Huff and maybe an “A” to “B” level prospect. That migh me something as heinous as Timmy to Texas for Michael Young and Martin Perez……

pacman68

SurfCity

I agree with everything you said. Huff will be back starting for this team in less then a week. As will The Riot start at second once he comes back next week. So in two weeks you will see this line up almost everyday.
Belt will become Nate 2.0. Bench player that comes in for late inning defense and occasional bat off the bench.

If you could start next season with the Giants’ Bruce Bochy or the A’s Bob Melvin as your SF Giants Manager…who would you choose and why?

This isn’t intended to be a cry to “Fire Bochy”, I’m just curious to see what opinions people might have if they were to look at this objectively. Bochy won Manager of the Year in 2006 and the WS in 2010, but Melvin won Manager of the Year in 2007 *and* is talked about very highly by Kruk/Kuip.

primetimedonna

Surf

Last post on the subject to you, since you arent’ really interested in discussion….if you look back you will see that ALL I SAID was that a few starts for Huff and Pill would not be a bad idea to enhance their pinch hitter roles. Having some at bats to keep them fresh, occasionally, wouldn’t be a bad idea. If that helps the Giants to win games by being able to have pinch hitters who can deliver that could be a good thing.

The rest of what you said, some fair, some not so much, is your opinion and has nothing to do with what I said. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree with much of it.

primetimedonna

Pac

Bet Crawford will be able to live with the OCCASIONAL outing with Huff or Pill at 1B. He’s a pretty good teammate kind of guy!

Anti-Lasorda

Personally,

I am fond of the Cabrera, Blanco, Pagan OF… if they would just switch Pagan into RF and Blanco to CF it would be perfect.

But in order to live with that OF, they need a MLB masher at 1B to compliment Sandoval, and let Buster be the hitter he is instead of trying to be Mike PIazza, which he isn’t……

Expat

A lot of smart posts about the Belt situation.

If Belt is in Bochy’s “doghouse” and in danger of losing the starting role because of a couple soft games after a very solid, upward trend then it shows that Bochy’s still weak-knee’d when it comes to young players. Disappointing.

The only surprise is that a veteran like Carl is providing cover for Bochy’s knee-jerk impatience. And the Will Clark comparison is absurd.

One last thing, pressuring Belt to hit for power right now is a great way to cause him to start pressing. He clearly has power but it will emerge as his fundamental hitting of big league pitching becomes more seasoned. As in golf, master the putting then, chipping, then wedges, etc. until you get to driving from the tee. Not the other way around.

WestBerkeleyJ

“a half-hearted attempt to cover home as Buster Posey relayed the ball to him”?!?

What game were you watching? Half-heated attempts don’t invoke images of pitchers trying to block the plate on charging runners and laying down a swipe tag that clearly would’ve made the out. I understand you’re trying to sell the lead but this kind of sensationalist exaggeration baits the trolls and malcontents who are already well fed.

http://thewisdomcow.blogspot.com/ The Wisdom Cow

KIR, I don’t really need to write the answer out, do I?

——————————–

Right now, I’d take anyone over Bochy.

Before anyone goes ballistic, that means specifically NOW, for the rest of this season. A change of club house dynamic, a breath of life, a new outlook, all the cliches you can think of, would add a win a week the the record.

For any manager, the “fit” with the roster is important. Another HUGE aspect is that invisible barrier hovering around the 8-12 year mark on a manager’s tenure, where the status quo is the problem. So few managers get past that point to become a mainstay, even the HOFers. Change is good.

So, when you add that Bochy is approaching that invisible barrier AND that the “fit” with a little ball / young roster is the opposite of his comfort zone, Bochy leaving is the easiest, most realistic way to improve the team for both the short and long term.

The team could manage by computer poll and improve at this point, although an omniscient bovine would probably be ideal, of course.

stickman

It could be that Bochy is a man of great faith ~ evidently a firm believer in resurrection of the dead. How else does one explain his adherence to the almost certainly washed-up and recently AWOL Aubrey Huff? There is one other possibility. Some tight-fisted Bohemian Grove billionaire in the ownership clatch is putting on the pressure to attempt to get some return on a bad $11 million investment. These two scenarios are the only ones which make sense to me as to these trial balloons on giving Huff the nod to playing in Milwaukee.

Last night on the previous blog i put Bochy on notice. Hate to turn into a harper, but the resurrection of Aubrey Huff is improbable in the extreme. Against an also-ran team like the Brew-Ha-Has, who managed to lose two of three over the weekend to the hapless Twinkies the logical candidate to face their lame excuse for a pitching staff is the team’s only possible current long-term solution at first base: BB9.

There is something awfully strange about starting Belt against some of the toughest pitchers in baseball, but not giving him a decent opportunity in a hitter-friendly park against a questionable rotation and so-so bullpen. As noted above, maybe it’s not all Bochy’s fault, but he could be getting pressure from high in the chain of command.

Baseball is not about assuaging ego or recouping investments or even about double dipping against bad investments. Baseball is about consistently winning games. If the Giants are to be a post-season winner this year they need to do all they can to field the best possible team as frequently as possible. That requires working WITH Brandon Belt and not effing with him at every possible turn. If it comes down to a mater of choosing between the possibility of fully developing an excellent first baseman who could anchor the infield and help spark the offense for years to come, or to retain a manager who caught lightning in a bottle and brought joy to a City and a host of fans; my choice is fully evident.

Buck

LOB RISP
LOB RISP
LOB RISP
LOB RISP
LOB RISP

Giant PITA

@ cow, re: Bochy,

“The team could manage by computer poll and improve at this point, although an omniscient bovine would probably be ideal, of course.”

Classic!

Mr. Sarcastic

Good grief, the Belt lovers are going crazy with the mere mention that Huff may get a start or two this week. I’m sure Huff can strike out looking with the bases loaded just as well as Brandon did yesterday, so everyone just relax …

Giant PITA

@ stickman 10:39pm and others earlier with similar sentiment,

Well said. Hoping against hop that Bochy’s throwing starts to Huff in Milwaukee is not the start of another long term sabbatical for Belt. The future is in Belt or at least in finding out it isn’t in Belt. The only way to find out is to play him REGULARLY for a few months. There are no better options on the roster anyway.

Regarding Timmy… the only hope is to fix him. We need him to return to some semblance of the old BTTJ or we’re sunk for this season. There is no credible replacement in the minors or in the pen. Figure it out and get him producing again. Where has his fastball velocity gone? He’s only 27, prime years for a pitcher? He may not be in the best physical shape possible, but jeez, he got beat yesterday by a butterball Thanksgiving day turkey. Talk about out of shape!

ClutchUp

I am impressed with the regular board posters and the few newbie’s musing about Sunday’s loss. Prior to the Postgame Notes Alex and Carl led with Headlines like:

•Sunday lineup: Extra! extra! Same lineup two days in a row (updated)
•POSTGAME NOTES: Rotating aces now lands on Vogelsong, Pagan’s amazing run and the cure that A’s you
•Saturday’s lineup: Almost the same, installing Posey at cleanup
•POSTGAME NOTES: Zito finds some fire; Bochy finds his lucky Penny; the lineup finds a greater purpose
•Giants sign right-hander Brad Penny (again)

What impressed me the most from the first 80-90 posts before me was the passion and literate ability to compose into words their thoughts and passion and have it seep through like real and loyal Giant Fans.

There are even some wonderful back and forths: Freeman vs. Belt; Does Huff need at bats; Will Clark as a Rookie etc. Personally I didn’t buy the Freeman v. Belt argument for reasons I look at all the time. Freeman’s bat stays in the strike zone a lot longer. The Will Clark issue: 1985-1986 the game was different…. handled different. Humm Baby replaced Davenport (100 losses) and Will and others were part of a revival.

Huff: WoW, where does one start. The “culture” of Major League Baseball is such that ANY veteran with some nice back of the baseball card stats is given (call it whatever you want) ‘mercy’ X any amount until that Vet is released (Tejada/Rowand). That does not make IT right, correct or popular, but it does make it a baseball fact, not a fact in real everyday life… @ 11 million Huff is not releasable per Giants Financial Planning LLC. Easy for US to just type: Release “the bum”, “DFA him”, “Get rid of Him” etc.

I’d admire Bapah who once posted: “Don’t tell us here what YOU want to happen, tell us what the Giants will”….

The Giants showered, did their interviews and got on a plane and landed while the vitriol was still being shared among us. THEY have a game to play in a few hours. Unlike what WE posted, they will (just) go about “Their Business” – per the Matrix-Template that they are used to. YES, that drives “us” here crazy because we all have MOVES, Trades, Releases, Explanations, Apologies and Antidotes that will (apparently) FIX what we think we saw yesterday. But what the Giants Bureau saw was ONE loss and they will fight at all odds to remain stoic – while real or appearing to be real – doing their due diligence.

Some people know how to look up old archived posts (I don’t) Everything I ever posted about Belt is futuristically. Not a bonified everyday player until 2013. His 9 HR success of 2011 was broken down in minutia by opposing teams pitching coaches. Pitching Coaches from OTHER teams share that knowledge. The Giants 2010 WS Magical Journey pee-oyed a lot of old time baseball people. I think they should get over it but that my opinion. What’s more real is THOSE other NL and AL franchises really feel that way and the bulls-eye on SF’s back in 2011 was Enormous and it continues to this moment. Other teams gleefully celebrate the downward spiral in 2011 and so far this year. They saw 2010 as a fluke, not a real bonafide trip to the WS. This is how they talk behind closed doors.

Sabean on the other hand KNOWS this club is flawed and in survival mode. Posey has not played ONE full season yet in MLB. Freddy has always been fragile. The day we signed him he had a knee injury in Pittsburg.

Huff: They really were banking on that ill advised every other year crud that his career has produced.

Nate: Predictable. Hurtful to say it. When he gets hot we smile, when cold you cannot find enough jackets to wear.

Pagan has always played like this: Dynamic, Erratic, Thrilling, and Frightful.
Cabrera: Solid X a million dollars.
Blanco: Enjoy Him. a mixture of Nijer Morgan, Juan Pierre, Kenny Lofton type player … Dynamic. We love what we see with our very own eyes because you can’t coach Speed and Hustle never takes a day off.

Lincecum: Who Actually REALLY knows? Nobody. We are all speculating. Even in losses he is freakishly a stand up guy, even though his father leans to the absurd when trying to explain… This IS what advanced OLD scouts did think and when Brandon Morrow was chosen by his home town Team…

Colon: There are hundreds of instances where a fat over the hill grizzled veteran pitcher has schooled a team up and down the lineup with late run on pitches. REMEMBER Jim Joyce is as Vet as Bartolo. On 99% of those pitches Suzuki’s glove NEVER moved. Suzuki called his “own game”.

I’m thankful we are (only) where we are, quite frankly. The season is like 1 6 2 – one game matchups.

Was Mr. Sarcastic being sarcastic, thereby actually implying the need to increase the worry over whether Belt gets sat for Huff?

It’s like when Colbert endorses cutting taxes for the rich, right?

Mr. Sarcastic

😉

Nameless Bob

I was never much for the “wake and bake” thing when I was partaking in my day. A 10:00 am joint while driving, especially alone, makes me wonder a bit. But does it have anything at all to do with pitching a baseball? If he is stoned silly while on the mound then definitely. Otherwise, you have to show me a few more causal links. Does he have self confidence? He gets out on a mound in the middle of a field in front of 41,000 people and a TV camera looking over his shoulder and tries to make the best baseball hitters in the world look foolish. That is not a job for the self-doubting. Those types of people do not apply.

Huff at first? I’m sorry, that is just crazy. Not even to get a bench player some live pitching time. Huff has lost his privileges. I can see Pill there for a short spell but Huff should not ever start again unless the team has a food poisoning outbreak or something.

ClutchUp

People have their game situations regarding Lincecum and Ball-Base-Backup.

As soon as Buster went right and the ball went left 55 pointed with his index finger and yelled _____ while sprinting to the plate. His blockage of the plate was not classic modern day method where MOST are taught to give the runner part of the plate so one knows where to swipe. 55 blocked home diligently like a Patrick Willis method.

Contrary on Weeks hit – that IS a sure double/possible triple and 55 belonged WAY BEHIND Arias – but was not. 55 stated that he thought it was JUST a double and thus he stayed where he was….

http://nada paul in p.v.

Not p/c, but I thought Wilson was a royal drag in the booth – fake macho and immature – and Kruk says “everyone agrees” he’ll wind up behind a mike. Maybe in the WWF…

Giant PITA

In the short term the only really positive thing we have to look forward to is Pablo’s return and Burriss’ departure. Arias, take lots of grounders and double play practice, because you’re going to be the regular second baseman in a few weeks.

Oh wait, Theroit is still on the team and Bochy loves him some vets. Oh NO!

http://nada paul in p.v.

p.s. Love Belt, but those strikeouts are killing us…

ClutchUp

Maybe first base is the reason the Giants have not completely severed ties with Angel Villalona…

DesertGiantFan

Clutch Up #122. That was a great post. Thanks.

Anti-Lasorda

Does anybody think right now the Giants would be buyers in July if they continue at .500 until the deadline?

Not a chance.

They need to keep afloat for May, then when the Codgers go on the road for that month long roadie, Sandoval get’s back in the lineup and a 2009 Brad Penny is threatening to be pitching in Timmy’s spot (and don’t think they’re not talking about it), make some major league hay and close the gap to 4 games or so and be 7 to 10 above….

Then the Timmy might get to stay, and they’ll mortgage anyone but maybe Crick and Hembree for the bat(s) the need….

Else, IMHO, they’ll be sellers, and trying to get what they can for Timmy to create salary room to plug the holes in 2013.

Right now 1B & 2B chief among them, trying like heck to resign Cabrera, and thinking real hard about Pagan…..

You can also count an MLB veteran to play SS (in a reserve capacity, but could step in if required) as on that list.

YMMV….

primetimedonna

Anti

What are the reports that we keep hearing that the Giants are looking for a corner OF big bat. Doesn’t seem to be a real necessity at the moment does it?

South City Jim

I think some really positive things have happened over the past couple of weeks; in no particular order: (1) The outfield is solidified with Cabrera, Pagan and Blanco. One could argue whether Pagan should move to left, Blanco to center and Cabrera to right, but they’ve got the right 3 out there. (2) Crawford has settled down a bit in the field and at the plate so SS is fine for now. (3) Buster and Hector have continued to be solid behind the plate. (4) Arias has seized the utility infielder role (or perhaps everyday 2B) when Pablo returns. (5) Penny will be a great addition to the pen and is a competent spot starter should Bochy decide to skip a start or move everyone back a day during the hot summer months. (6) Casilla has grabbed the closer role by the throat.

My top 3 current issues would be:

1) First Base
2) Timmy
3) Second Base

ClutchUp

Keep’n It Real says: May 21st, 2012 at 10:20 am 94..Question:
=======If you could start next season with the Giants’ Bruce Bochy or the A’s Bob Melvin as your SF Giants Manager…who would you choose and why?This isn’t intended to be a cry to “Fire Bochy”, I’m just curious to see what opinions people might have if they were to look at this objectively. Bochy won Manager of the Year in 2006 and the WS in 2010, but Melvin won Manager of the Year in 2007 *and* is talked about very highly by Kruk/Kuip.

-Interesting- IMO Bochy will always have a spot in baseball after he stops managing but Melvin is sought after by specific GM’s because of what he has accomplished with certain teams with specific DNA. Melvin surrounded himself/staff the same way others do. Loyalty, familiarity etc. (See Torre and Zimmer – Larussa and Duncan etc)

– Melvin was mistreated and fired by owners/GM’s of several clubs who had no clue what stability brings within an organization.

If I was forced to pick a manager going forward with the ones you offered I would choose a Melvin type over a Bochy type.

But the Giants Next Manager is probably:
Raggs with Gardy moving to Pitching Coach vs Bull Pen P coach
If not Raggs: Decker, if not Decker Wotus.
The Fanatic Lunitic Fringe would love Brenly but as a broadcaster he put the KiBosh on that by bad mouthing the Bonds-led Giants….

Reality says its Bochy for 2012-13-2014. Sorry Fringies…

Bay area rogue

The Rogue has been questioning timmy’s health for the lasy 6 weeks. Maybe this collision will give the gigante’s a chance to do a thorough physical on their investment. Including, blood, urine and hair samples. Timmy has a history with narcotics. There needs to be no stone unturned. If he has nothing to hide he should be willing to do this. It’s to far into the season for continuous excuses. Right now timmy sucks.

Giant PITA

@ CU,

Brenly would be intriguing. He won a WS and he is one of the loved Humm Baby Giants. Why did his tenure end so quickly in AZ anyway?

Giant PITA

Rogue wants to go all CSI on Timmy.

Me too!

pacman68

CLUTCH
(I agree with what you say below)
Other teams gleefully celebrate the downward spiral in 2011 and so far this year. They saw 2010 as a fluke, not a real bonafide trip to the WS. This is how they talk behind closed doors.

But it didn’t have to be like this.

2009 … no team wanted to face the Giants pitching staff. My buddy in Phillie was scared to death of the Giants. We missed the playoffs.

2011…again, no team wanted to face the Giants pitching staff. We missed the playoffs.

I blame Bochy for both seasons. This is just my opinion but the luck that played a great role in 2010 made Bochy look like he was a better manager then he was.

We should have made the playoffs 2009 and 2011. No excuses with the pitching staff we had.

Anti-Lasorda

PTD,

I think it’s a smoke screen personally, the club needs a bat, but I think he needs to play 1B. Of course with 3 1st baseman on the roster you can’t really say that, but it’s the truth.

Pill is a good platoon guy, but they don’t think he can be everyday. .228 tends to re-inforce that. He pop of the bench is nice to have.

Belt is a slick fielder, but now in an adequate 266 ABS (that’s 1/2 a season is hitting .229 with 9 HR’s….

Huff ist kaput….

If the rumors get out that your chasing a 1B, you loose three guys in the clubhouse, but talking about a bat let the clubhouse know you want to get better.

Besides, if you sign said corner OF, Who are you going sit? Blanco? since he’s been given lead off with his .400+ OBP and Pagan has dropepd to 5th and 6th in the lineup look at the clubs record and Pagan’s stats…… You’re not going to bench Cabrera unless you run out of Compund W.

It’s a 1B. Count on it.

Nameless Bob

Bay area rogue – “Timmy has a history with narcotics”. What are you , a bit actor on Adam 12 or Dragnet? Marijuana = narcotics has absolutely no connection with reality. So you think his blood should be tested for this dangerous drug? Should we all wear our underwear on the outside so it can be inspected by you for cleanliness?

Giant PITA

Maybe a deal with the Marlins while in Miami this week for Gabby Sanchez who they just sent to the minors yesterday. AP news story below:

May 20, 2012
CLEVELAND (AP) — Miami first baseman Gaby Sanchez has been sent to the minors, a year after he was on the NL All-Star team.

The Marlins announced Sanchez had been optioned to Triple-A New Orleans after their 2-0 loss to the Cleveland Indians. Sanchez went 0 for 3, dropping his average to .197. He has one homer and 11 RBIs.

The Marlins were counting on Sanchez, who hit .266 with 19 homers and 78 RBIs last season, to be a force in the middle of their lineup.

The 28-year-old Sanchez batted .273 with 19 homers and 85 RBIs in 2010, his first full season in the majors.

Miami will make a move to fill Sanchez’s roster spot before Sunday’s game at Cleveland.

Sketch

All Belt has proven so far is that he is the next Ishikawa…without even the gap to gap warning track power….He hasnt figured it out in 30 games, whos to say he is going to in the next 30 days…unfortunately there is no other answer…I just dont understand why Pill cant play against righties…he is hitting .333 against RHP and .190 against LHP…yet they continue to platoon him?

Sign Lind, this guy hit 80+ bombs the last 3 years…that is the kind of guy you need at 1B…

primetimedonna

Anti

That’s why I brought it up……why would we need a corner outfielder…. Thanks for your take. I assumed it was for 1B, although I still feel a middle infielder should take precedence. Just throwing it out there for discussion since I haven’t seen anyone really question the “looking for a slugging corner outfielder” rumors.

ClutchUp

•Our Team says: Belt has plenty of talent to be a good hitter in the Majors; it’s his swing that needs work. Pitchers have figured out that he doesn’t extend to cover the outside portion of the plate and so he swings through the belt high fastball over the outside corner regularly. Then, he already had trouble with the breaking ball over the inside half. You can’t have two holes like that in your swing and be effective at the major league level. He needs to adjust his swing so he can hit the outside fastball the opposite way. Part of that is the way he grips the bat; he needs to adjust that to give himself more extension. The guy is 6 5″ and he can’t cover the outside part of the plate with his bat bc of his grip. The other part is that he needs to change his approach to go to left field more. It doesn’t matter how many abs he gets, if he doesn’t change these issues he won’t succeed. I think he has a lot of talent but you have to make the adjustments to thrive in any pro sport and Belt hasn’t done that yet.

•stickman says: Intriguing post. Clearest and most probable analysis i’ve yet seen regarding Belt’s bat-handling and swing. Either you are a very close video observer, or have quite a bit of direct BB experience ~ perhaps both.So my question is this: If a poster on this blog can come up with insights which strike me as being both logical and sensible, then what is holding back Bam-Bam, Clark and Bochy from making the same observations and spending some time with Brandon to realign his approach?

•Our Team is on to something that I perhaps saw from day one, however a hitter does not “extend” to get to an outside pitch. A quality outside STRIKE = a hitter must let that particular pitch get Deeper. Extended ones bat to get to an outside pitch would require a hitter to incorrectly add more length to his hands and lower arms by including his upper arms thus that would lead to “Casting” or “Barring” his swing. MANY young hitters who grew up with aluminum bats have this flaw.

•Our team is correct about Belt’s top hand GRIP. He has the top wrapped in what they call a gorilla grip. Hard to change him but Belt should find a hybrid system where some part of his “knocking-knuckles” are lined up either in a pure fashion or hybrid method.

•In regards to stickman’s question: Bam Bam/Will Clark (Bochy does NOT work with hitters technique) Stick: That is the 64 thousand dollar question. Suggestions are made but IMO working with hitters they REVERT back to the flaw because that flaw is the muscle-memory that is imbedded into their body-brain.

* Back-side is “collapsed” IE too much weight over back leg
* Top hand is Over-Gripped
* Back Elbow Too High – Should be in a Lower Slot
* Hands Seem Too Rigid
* “I” would put some ‘rythmn’ into his pre-pitch stance, he is ready TOO soon.

*Disclaimer: BB9 is a major league ball player. This is what has worked for him… so far. Changes have to come from the soul first, one has to embrace change otherwise the player, with his agent whispering in his ear is telling the player not to change and the player gets conflicted*

bochy’s platoony tune adventures

Can we just all agree on something?

Nobody knows what is wrong with Timmeh, so everyone should just stop saying like they think they know.

Belt may become great. He may bust. The only way we will know, is if he gets consistent playing time. There are no other 1B options, and we have to find out what we have in Belt.

2B is a massive sinkhole that is sinking the team, and not only does the local press not even zoom on it a little, Sabean still talks like Freddy is coming back tomorrow and Sabes is still passing up on 2Bmen who hit .250/.320/.360 on the waiver wire. Every. Single. Day.

That isn’t so hard, is it?

Lefty

I agree with ClutchUp: Really great posts today–thoughtful, respectful discussion on a range of issues from different interesting perspectives. I think we got our blog back! Props to Alex: I think his reminder about/posting of House Rules a couple days ago really helped.

Pacman68 is right to remind us that the real five-alarm fire problem is at 2B. Belt may not be sexy at 1B right now, but he is serviceable and contributes in a variety of ways, not least of all on defense, which has been THE biggest problem so far this year (Timmy is #2). I also agree with Pac that Arias may not be an everyday solution for the rest of the year. He’s done a fine job filling in at various positions, but his bat seems more suited for a utility role. Especially if they continue with Crawford as the everyday SS, they need a 2B that can provide more offense. I hope Sabean is looking for trades by July and not relying on Freddy’s return.

To change from the Huff/Belt discussion, we may be having the same one about Nate/Blanco soon. In the same quotes where he discussed Huff getting starts on the road trip, Bochy also mentioned needing to find opportunities for Nate. He seemed unwilling to think about messing with the OF at the moment (thus Huff will start at 1B and not in the OF, thank God), but you can bet that if Blanco scuffles for 2-3 games at the plate (he actually wasn’t great yesterday, only 1 for 5, and the one hit was when the game was well out of reach), we’ll start hearing about/seeing Nate again.

I do understand that you have to keep 25 guys happy (and from shots of the dugout lately, Nate does NOT look happy), and I do appreciate Bochy’s loyalty to players he’s managed for years. However, when it feels like he’s just waiting for the newbie (Blanco/Belt) to falter so he can pounce on the lineup spot for the guy he really wants in there, then it seems more like he’s worrying about individuals than what’s best for the team.

The “Belt Lovers” realized that since Snow left (and even for his last 2/3 years) the Giants haven’t had a 1B. Huff was a one-season patch-job who ended up playing a lot of the OF. Buster isn’t the future there because while he’s a good hitter, he isn’t the slugging impact bat that some pretend he is.

See the train wreck that’s been 1B? It’s been a gaping wound in the Giants’ lineup since before Bochy got here. It remains so. But it won’t change unless the Giants COMMIT to someone. Not Posey, he’s solidifying C and not Pablo, he’s doing the same at 3B. Not Huff, he should have left with Tejada and Rowand. They need to put someone their and stick to them. The best option is Belt.

Tommy Joseph will never be an option. He’s got a ton of power, like a Rod Barajas, John Buck, etc but he isn’t a good hitting talent. Much less great. He’ll be the 10 to 25 HR guy with a sub .300 OBP. If he makes it to the majors it will because of his defense. Chris Dominguez is the same way, but he’ll never make it to the Majors because he don’t have a position, much less a skilled on like catcher. He can’t even play 3B. Susac might be a good hitting catcher. Same with H.Sanchez. But it’s Posey’s position to lose and he isn’t losing it any time soon.

Richy Oropesa might be the next option. But he’s at Single-A and at 22 he’s isn’t exactly tearing it up like Belt did when he was 22. Far from it.

ClutchUp

Giant Pita: Brenly may have been fighting forces with one of those Coangleo Brothers and one usually loses. The 2004 season of 111 loses probably did Brenly in. (Hey one BB could replace another BB)

Actually that was a back door sinker that Belt took for a called 3rd strike, the same pitch that Pagan took for a called 3rd strike. Giant left handed hitters have a hard time with that pitch, made famous by Greg Maddex. It is surprising that Giant RH pitchers (Hensley does) do not use it more to opponent’s LH hitters.

I thought Timmy pitched quite well. In the ill-fated 4th the only hard hit ball was Smith’s lead off single on 2 strikes. Donaldson’s 2 strike single was blooped over short, the single to third was a ground ball that found the right spot, and Cowgill’s hit to center was softly hit as well. If Timmy had been pitching well instead of poorly, no one would be saying anything about several lucky hits. Of course, that is baseball.

The Giants need to play better at home and win more games at home, that is where the difference between the Dodgers and Giants is right now, the home record.

With Blanco batting 1st, Melky batting 3rd, when Pablo comes back, the line up will be good enough if the team gets a little more production from the 1st base spot and the 2nd base spot. The bulpen has righted itself and the starters except for Timmy are doing very well. The team needs to just win more of the close games and they will close the gap.

ClutchUp

One thing about the Giants, my Giants that has always made me uneasy is the LONG off field relationships that they pursue (Bravo, but Still)

It makes the eventual parting of the ways so necessary for us fans but so difficult for the actual people involved.

Kim Bochy was Amanda Sabean’s mid-wife…. Sabes and Bochy have Condo’s on King Street…..

Felipe Alou replaces Dusty…. Pinella almost replaced Felipe before BB15 was recommended to Sabes by a long time Baseball Scout….

Etcetera Etcetera/Go Gians.

Lineups to be announced soon by Pavlovic…

Our Team

Clutch and Stickman: I think Belt can “extend” his swing by moving that top hand grip a little at a time so the knuckles are closer to alignment. Right now, his hands are so twisted on the bat, it looks like he’s got a death grip on it. He may feel like it helps him hit for power when he turns on an inside fastball but he’s not going to get those with the current holes in his swing.

Clutch, I agree that a key to his problem is letting the ball get deeper–but I also think correcting his grip would allow him to extend a bit more through the swing and quicker, which also would aid him in letting the ball get deeper before he swings. As Clutch suggests, a partial correction would help and not totally mess him up in the meantime. I am sure they have tried to get him to do this but it is a hard thing to do, particularly now in mid-season.

One of the things that impresses me about Belt is that he was an elite pitching prospect, then after injury curtailed that, he became an elite hitting prospect. You have to be a great athlete to do that.

Giant PITA

I just watched the Cowgill / Lincecum collision several times (even frame by frame) and Timmy got absolutely rocked. It was clean headfirst slide by Cowgill and his head and neck were definitely at risk (so no attempted take out of Timmy).

I think that may have been the first headfirst “pop up” slide I have ever seen.

South City Jim

Not sure how folks can say that 2B is worse off than 1B. Historically, the corner infield and outfield positons are the primary offensive positions. So far the Giants have 4 homers out of 1B (Pill = 3, Huff = 1). This is terrible production a quarter into the season. I’m not sure who the answer is but we need a 1B that when he has a 3-1 count, he’s looking for a pitch to drive in the gaps or out of the park, not hoping for ball 4.

ClutchUp

• One Year Ago Today by Carl Steward
• Timmy and Burriss “in the news” even then….

Giant PITA says: May 21st, 2012 at 12:12 pm I just watched the Cowgill / Lincecum collision several times (even frame by frame) and Timmy got absolutely rocked. It was clean headfirst slide by Cowgill and his head and neck were definitely at risk (so no attempted take out of Timmy).I think that may have been the first headfirst “pop up” slide I have ever seen.

@Pita: And Timmy’s leg bent underneath him would have been an MCL/ACL for anybody else who was overly muscle bound, however 55 is very limber per workout regimine (sic) layed out by the SF trainers.

Giant PITA

@ clutch, could be a chance for a knee injury for a burly guy in that collision, but more likely an injury to Cowgill (who would have been out by the way).

Timmy is so slight he was just rag dolled and got rolled over. I don’t think that happens to a bigger guy like say, Madbum or Cain.

ClutchUp

Bud says: May 21st, 2012 at 6:16 am Even if you don’t like Belt, how can anyone look at the last year and a half and come away with the idea that Huff is somehow going to be an improvement? When Belt is bad he is the same as when Huff is good. When Belt is good, he’s dramatically better than when Huff is good. When you throw in the exponential defensive upgrade that Belt provides, the only logical choice is to keep playing Belt and limit Huff to PH duty if you must keep him on the roster. If the Giants decide Belt isn’t good enough, then they need to go out and get someone else who isn’t on the team right now. Looking for Huff to be an answer is crazy.

Bud: Know one said that Huff is the answer. He is part of their team DNA. No team member is rooting for Huff or against Belt OR for Belt and against Huff. Huff is well liked by his teammates as is B9. Yesterday was ONE fricking game in a marathon of 162.

They are barely surviving. Bochy and Sabean are in charge. They will do what they know, presume, want or need to do. Neither forgot how to do what it is they do within the framework that is their livelihood.

Blogs don’t effect what both do. Whether right or wrong their supposed Matrix/Template works for them and works for their employers.

There are other teams whose players are 5-10 times better than our players skill set but yet those teams are _______ games under .500.

I do think however that the Giants NEED to win 50 games at ATT and only play one to four games under on the road. To do so they will need to play error free ball at home and the parks DNA at home is gap to gap whereas on the road guys like Posey, Belt, Pagan, Cabrera, Pablo and even Huff are going to have to lift some balls so they can leave the yard in those small parks on the road.

It may sound trivial but the Giant hitters have to hit completely different at home than on the road IMO.

And NO band box Astros field in 2013 for the Giants…..

#FreeAltuvefromHouston

JC

How is Huff getting back in equation? If he goes 0-fer in his spot start on Tuesday. We better not see him get a start again. But cause with Theriot coming back off DL on Thursday for Miami series l, there is no way my stomach can fathom Theriot and huff in the same lineup. That just makes me sick. But yea. Bochy loves him some veterans and reverts to old ways cause we dropped a game where our ace struggled again. Changed momentum of the game. It was similar to Dodgers game and we were cruising manufacturing 2 runs and having a 2-0 lead in the middle of a ballgame and Lincecum then struggles and gives up a 4 spot both times to change momentum In the game in which we lost both times. Belt struggled last two days but that should t merit huff starting at 1b all of a sudden. Stick with the belt/pill platoon for better or worse unless huff can strike this opportunity and run with it. But the leash better be short this time. I’ve saw enough of rollover Huff all last year and part of this year.

@ClutchUp, a few of these issues with Belt’s swing weren’t their last season.

While you say arm barring is an issue with hitters who’ve used metal bats, it’s also been an issue for young Giants hitters trying to “cover more of the plate”. Ishikawa was doing in a lot in early in 2009. They had him so tied up trying to cover the inside part of the plate he couldn’t hit anything over the middle or outer part of the plate. When he would get pitches inside they would turn into weak grounders. Sound familiar?

We’ve seen this movie before. Young Giants 1B has a hot ST. Near the end the Coaching staff starts talking more about how the hitter needs to make adjustments going into the season (if they are hitting, why adjust them at the END of ST?). Those adjustments in theory gives them more coverage of the plate, but in reality leads to weak swings and a different set of holes. Though 41 games into the 2009 season Ishikawa had an OPS of only .584 to Belt’s .709. Neither had HRs even though both had known HR power. Ishikawa wouldn’t hit a HR until game 44. Ishikawa also had 29 starts in 41 games to Belt’s 22.

My question is this. Why didn’t they “fix it” either 1) before the season or 2) at the beginning of ST. Why wait until the end? If you’re going to wait why not a month or two into the season? See if they can’t have some success before that. Because all these adjustments are doing is tying guys like Ishikawa and Belt up in knots. I just think it’s funny. Bochy wants results. But from young players they have to be in the way he wants them. Belt can’t just go out and hit. He has to produce, but hit how Bochy and the staff thinks it should be done. Over-coaching is as being of a problem, if not worse, then no coaching.

Last year Belt could hit outside pitches. Forgot the game against the Dodgers were he had the 2B and HR. That 2B was to LF. Then their was that massive HR in Florida. Not to mention going Opp-Field at Coors. He did it against the Dodgers in ST. But after the Bochy-required “adjustments”? In fact you go to the Giants webpage and do a video search for Belt HRs and you see him crushing balls he’s not even close on.

Belt’s timing has been a little off and the “adjustments” have done nothing to improve his mechanics.

Observationist

Not sure I understand the complete vitrole being spewed forth about Huff. Don’t the Giants need to see what they have in him (I know, know, your first response is “NOTHING!”)? I mean, right now he’s a wasted roster spot. At some point the team needs to see if he can contribute or if they need to go in a different direction. The only way to do that is to play him, even if it comes at the expense of the Golden Child Who Can Do No Wrong Even As He’s Looking At Called Third Strikes And Hasn’t Pulled a Ball With Power Since Day Three of Spring Training.

If he can’t do it any longer, then at least the team will know and figure out what to do from there. Hell, they’re paying Rowand to sit on his butt, what makes you think they wouldn’t do the same to Huff?

I mean, instead of HOPING that Huff fails, how about HOPING he contributes to a win? Isn’t that why the game is played? To win? Why do so many people think that the enter game revolves around one player? Belt has had chances and done fair to poor. Belt will get more chances in the future.

Untwist your panties, boys. There’s still a lot of season left.

http://thewisdomcow.blogspot.com/ The Wisdom Cow

So, Pill today because of the Lefty, then Huff will get his “one or two starts.” Moral of the story, 0-8 over 2 games equals a benching under Bochy if a vet alternative on the roster is not on the DL.

Internet Giants Fan

I must have missed the last week where huff got 5 starts. In the article I read it said he is likely to get a one off start in Milwuakee.

Giant PITA

@ observationist,

You still need to see if Huff has anything left? You’re still not sure at this point? Have you not been paying attention since the 3/4 pole of 2010? If you think Huff has anything left you’re likely suffering from delusion and should schedule an appointment with your MD ASAP.

El Lobo

Haven’t read through all of the thread, but generally agree with the Timmy & 2B concerns. However, I have a bigger concern with the long relief role. I haven’t looked at the data, but I worry most about innings 4-6 every 2.5 days, or the days that Timmy or Zito pitch. Mota was perfect for this role and I hope I’m wrong, but I wonder if Mota will be the one most missed at the end of the season. He could consume innings and generally keep the team in the game (with an occasional bad day where he’d collect all of his earned runs). Loux was doing well until he went up against Reddick. Not so sure about Edlefson and those before him. Hopefully Penny will be able to take the role. Of course I’d rather have the SP go to the 6th and then turn it over to Affeldt/Hensley, Romo/Lopez & Casilla.

ClutchUp

Jose Altuve Trivia

Altuve faced New York Mets reliever Jon Rauch, who at 6’11” is the tallest player in major league history.

The 18″ height differential is believed to be the biggest between pitcher and batter with exception of a 1951 publicity stunt in which a 3’7″ Eddie Gaedel had one at bat for the St. Louis Browns.

Originally listed at 5’7″, Altuve is now listed at his correct height of 5’5″, making him the shortest player in major league baseball.

Anti-Lasorda says: May 21st, 2012 at 12:51 pm Clutch,
How do you propose to #freealtuve?

Anti: I’m sending them Nate and Burriss. Altuve is a pest. Would cause/reek havoc at ATT for 81 games….

Come on, work with me now 😉

The Oracle

I definitely don’t understand the idea of needing to see what Huff has. He’s been showing everyone since August of 2010. I don’t need to see the sun come up everyday to know that it’s going to happen.

Observationist

@Giant PITA: yes, I do need to see if he has anything left. His lack of production in 2011 has been well-explained. I guess I’m the only one capable of looking at a calendar? Maybe you should seek the help of a reading teacher.

As far as 2012 goes, his sample size is even smaller than Belt’s and Belt to date has shown nothing special, other than the ability to have the same number of home runs as Emmanuel Burris.

What makes you think that giving Huff a start or two is going to destroy the season? What makes you think it’s going to destroy Belt’s development?

I guess I’m the only one who remembers him being such a key part of the ONLY world championship that SF has seen, and thinking that maybe he deserves one last chance.

Heck, what if Huff shows some flashes of ability to the point where he could be traded to clear the path for Belt? Wouldn’t that be worth a couple of games to find out?

JD4
Thanks for the LU!! Also appreciate it when you let us know about interesting tweets!

JD4SF

Wow, I read every single post instead of skimming, and there is some great discussion today! I agree with Lefty, props to Alex for posting some House Rules, but I also give props to the commenters for following those rules. Discussions like today’s are what makes this blog a great read on Giants baseball in addition to the great articles and blog posts from Alex and Carl.

Posey at 1B. Cause lefty is on mound. Pill is hitting .190 against LHP and hector has caught bumgarner majority of his starts this season. And Hector is swinging a good bat. So I heard Hector would’ve been at 3B if we tied the game late when Schierholtz pinch hit For Burriss and no arias at the time. Why not give him or Posey a look there till Pablo gets back to get all the bats in there. It’s only for two more weeks till pablo gets back. Would love to see Posey hector and Pill/Belt all at the same time. Would be intriguing.

JD4SF

Hmmmmmmmmmm
Baggs tweet:
The fact Schierholtz is starting against a lefty suggests it’s more than a routine day off for Pagan. Clubhouse opens in 10 minutes.

Your calendar comment is unclear? Huff’s decline started around August of 2010. The sucking continued straight through 2011. And yes you’re right the 2011 issues were well documented. You think the team and the fans owe him something for his contributions to the 2010 championship? What did Huff owe those same stakeholders when he showed up at 2011 ST out of shape and not ready to compete? I for one have seen enough Huff!

pacman68

Is Pagan hurt?

JD4SF

new thread

ClutchUp

3rdKing says: May 21st, 2012 at 1:24 pm i work out every morning and smoke the killer before i run 3 miles…everyday…many athletes do, especially basketball players…big deal, helps you focus on your workout for hours 420 for life, caliornia’s number one business

King: So does the saxaphone player who sits on the 3/K corner with his one repeatable verse from his song: “I got a big-fat-women and a bottle of wine…”

I guess the Ganja will never catch up “witch-you”…..

Boring

So belt has one bad day and you say sit him? Get a clue Carlol.

BBQNBLUES

last

jason mack

Belt has played like a rookie. Flashes of potential, some difficulty adjusting to ML pitching, stretches of seeming overmatched.

Belt has 305 PA’s with inconsistent playing time.
305 PA’s. Look at what Paul Konerko did in his first 300 PA. Adam Jones. Carlos Ruiz. What about Aubrey Huff’s TERRIBLE 2nd ML season, before breaking out with 3-straight years of very good 1B production?

What would Bochy have done to Willie Mays after he went 0-12 and 1-26?

I’m not saying Belt is a future Hall of Famer. I’m saying you can’t tell in less than a season’s worth of PA’s.

Bochy sets this team back every time Belt is on the bench. Every game he sits is a day Belt doesn’t develop, and a day the Giants are WASTING his service clock.

It’s a waste. I don’t think there’s another MLB team without a real talent blocking him that would treat him like this.

He’s gonna strikeout. He’s gonna slump. Sometimes it’s going to happen with runners on. HE NEEDS TO PLAY. EVERY POSITION PROSPECT DOESN’T LIGHT THE WORLD ON FIRE RIGHT AWAY. THAT IS AN UNREASONABLE EXPECTATION. Giants fans might not know this, because Posey and Sandoval are the ONLY SUCCESSFUL POSITION PLAYERS THE GIANTS HAVE DEVELOPED SINCE MATT WILLIAMS.

Matt Williams
436 PA
.195/.244/.367 AVG/OBP/SLG

speierfuentes

Jason,

Where you around when Matt Williams came up as a 21 year old? When he first arrived he was primarily a SS on a team loaded with hitters.

He went up and down between SF and Phoenix more than a few times over 3 years…or as the #freebelt crowd call it: “getting jacked around by the management.” “ruining the kid” bla bla bla

For some reason people love to bring up Matt Williams when a kid struggles. But guess what?

He was “yo-yoed” plenty and somehow became a star at 24. The truth is Matt Williams career has nothing what ever to do with the prospects of Brandon Belt becoming a big league player.

Mooooooooooose

Thank you speierfuentes. Everybody around here thinks they have all the answers. How many of you geniuses would like Lance Berkman (prior to his knee injury) on this team? If you say “yes,” find a post you made two years ago when you said it. And good luck.

Nobody, but nobody wanted anything to do with Berkman when he was a free agent a couple of years ago. How did that turn out?

So when you say that Huff is done or any other prediction about a player’s performance, you’re just blowing smoke.