Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Glory to God! Awesome! I am so glad to see Orthodoxy growing in Mexico, Central, and South America. It has been making inroads in a big way in Bolivia, too, via the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Bolivia (last I heard, 450+ in attendance weekly in La Paz alone, with many more outside in the more rural regions, some of whom hadn't seen a priest in years before the Copts began their work there in 2000).

These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.

These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.

These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.

Well not really. The Roman Catholic Church happens to be correct in her opposition to those practices. They would have been kicked out also from the Orthodox Church.

That said, I don't want to judge them in the present situation. The past is past and I'd like to believe that our hierarchs have done their job in scrutinizing Orthodoxy of this movement.

These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.

Well not really. The Roman Catholic Church happens to be correct in her opposition to those practices. They would have been kicked out also from the Orthodox Church.

That said, I don't want to judge them in the present situation. The past is past and I'd like to believe that our hierarchs have done their job in scrutinizing Orthodoxy of this movement.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Are they currently part of any canonical EO jurisdiction? What would motivate them to change to OO?

To be fair to the article linked to, it is no way suggests they discussions were part of them joining the Syriac Orthodox Church, but rather Metropolitan Mor Clement was meeting with some of those in the "movement" about their transition to Orthodoxy.

Quote

The Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese of the Western United States is reporting that its ruling hierarch, Metropolitan Mor Clement (Kaplan) of Burbank, has made a pastoral visit to Guatemala as part of the Syriac Orthodox Church’s dialogue with a Christian movement there wanting to be united with the Orthodox Church.

The movement reportedly has 800,000 followers. In addition to meeting with the leadership of the movement Metropolitan Mor Clement also visited the small Syriac Orthodox community already present in the Guatemalan capital.

There appear to be (at least) two different Guatemalan groups that have joined with or are seeking to join with Orthodox groups. The first, referenced in the Byztex blog, is led by the former Guatemalan senator and representative to the UN, an excommunicated Catholic priest now ordained as an Orthodox archimandrite in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Fr. Andrés Girón. The visit by Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico, as well as the accounts from a few Orthodox missionaries from the US, make clear both the seriousness of Fr. Fr. Girón and his priests, and the fact that everyone involved realizes the very long process that is necessary for bringing the practices of their quite sizeable movement in line with Orthodox norms.

The ultimate source for the info about a Guatemalan group getting in touch with the Syriacs is this Arabic-language article-- http://www.soc-wus.org/2012News/8112012115231.htm . The group in question is distinct from Fr. Girón's group. It is led by a different excommunicated Catholic priest who was re-ordained as a bishop by the "Brazilian Church" in 2007 named Eduardo Aguirre Oestmann. Info about the break of his also-sizeable group from the Catholic Church can be found here- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1914625/posts and here (in Spanish)- http://cesmen.tripod.com/id10.html . On August 7 of this year Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Syriac bishop of the Western US traveled to Guatemala to meet with the 19 priests of this movement and had theological talks with them. According to the Arabic article, they are very eager to join the Syriac Church.

There appear to be (at least) two different Guatemalan groups that have joined with or are seeking to join with Orthodox groups. The first, referenced in the Byztex blog, is led by the former Guatemalan senator and representative to the UN, an excommunicated Catholic priest now ordained as an Orthodox archimandrite in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Fr. Andrés Girón. The visit by Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico, as well as the accounts from a few Orthodox missionaries from the US, make clear both the seriousness of Fr. Fr. Girón and his priests, and the fact that everyone involved realizes the very long process that is necessary for bringing the practices of their quite sizeable movement in line with Orthodox norms.

The ultimate source for the info about a Guatemalan group getting in touch with the Syriacs is this Arabic-language article-- http://www.soc-wus.org/2012News/8112012115231.htm . The group in question is distinct from Fr. Girón's group. It is led by a different excommunicated Catholic priest who was re-ordained as a bishop by the "Brazilian Church" in 2007 named Eduardo Aguirre Oestmann. Info about the break of his also-sizeable group from the Catholic Church can be found here- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1914625/posts and here (in Spanish)- http://cesmen.tripod.com/id10.html . On August 7 of this year Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Syriac bishop of the Western US traveled to Guatemala to meet with the 19 priests of this movement and had theological talks with them. According to the Arabic article, they are very eager to join the Syriac Church.

I wonder whether, when this finally happens, Metropolitan Athenagoras' see will be moved to Guatemala, given that - by far, the vast portion of his flock (probably nearly all) will be in that country.

We have about 50-75 people from this movement who just made contact with our church, who live down the street! It's gonna be interesting to figure out what is really happening with them. Church politics at its best.

Guatemala, officially the Republic of Guatemala (Spanish: República de Guatemala), is a country in Central America bordered by Mexico to the north and west, the Pacific Ocean to the southwest, Belize to the northeast, the Caribbean to the east, and Honduras and El Salvador to the southeast. Its area is 108,890 km2 (42,043 mi2) with an estimated population of 13,276,517.

A representative democracy, its capital is Guatemala de la Asunción, also known as Guatemala City. Guatemala's abundance of biologically significant and unique ecosystems contributes to Mesoamerica's designation as a biodiversity hotspot. The former Mayan civilization was a Mesoamerican civilization, which continued throughout the Post-Classic period until the arrival of the Spanish. The Mayas live in Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, the southern part of Mexico and northern parts of El Salvador.

Guatemala became independent from Spain in 1821, joining the Mexican Empire. After it became an independent country in its own right, it was ruled by a series of dictators, assisted by the United Fruit Company. The late 20th century saw Guatemala embroiled in a 36-year-long civil war. Following the war, Guatemala has witnessed both economic growth and successful democratic elections. In the most recent election, held in 2011, Otto Pérez Molina of the Patriotic Party won the presidency.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Please come to hear a presentation by two dynamic priests who are at the center of this phenomenon on Wednesday, November 7, at 7:30 p.m.: "Mission to Guatemala: Receiving the Mayan People into the Orthodox Church." The Very Rev. Archimandrite Dr. Andres Girón de Leon and The Very Rev. John Chakos will be our guest lecturers, sharing first hand their missionary activities among the indigenous people of Guatemala. The presentation will be in the Metropolitan Philip Auditorium of the John G. Rangos Family Building on campus.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Metropolitan Jonah (AFAIK he is not laicised) had nothing in common with those Guatemalans. They were got by Archbishop Athenagoras.

There were reports a couple of years ago that the metropolitan sent some clergy to enter negotiations. But, given his record, it wasn't leftist Guatemalan peasants that he was most likely to get involved with. He was seen around Mormon millionaires IIRC.

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

parishoners from your favorite parish are busy at work in Guatemala.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

parishoners from your favorite parish are busy at work in Guatemala.

United Fruit Company?

No. The parish that exists in reality, and not your fervid imagination.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Thanks for the background info. I read the whole article. What I don't understand is why he is shopping around for another church? His main interest is political justice and social justice so why doesn't he become a layman and start a political reform movement or his own political party. I don't like seeing Orthodox priests involved in politics. So let him become a layman.

If that is the case I am afraid this initiative will have the same destiny many other, smaller ones in Latin America had: decline into some sort of popular folk syncretism.

Basically this is the routine:

Liberal Roman Priest tries for years to change the Roman Church into an agent of social change. Some are more political, others work more on the cultural side, but they feel there is a "social issue" and the Vatican should be more political (aka leftist). Meeting with stubborn resistance along the years they either leave or are expelled. Some deffect to political movements, others seek churches which they assume to have weaker leadership, which they hope to transform into the real church. When this church is the Orthodox church they eventually find out that it can resist their plans pretty well, thank you. Initially, Orthodox bishops give them support, enchanted by their often charismatic personalities and superficial appearance of achievers, the many followers they bring with them, unaware of the political nature of the group. The leader of the group insists in mixing local folk rites and beliefs with Orthodox rites using alleged similar "pastoral" measures in the 1st millenium. Eventually, the bishop notices that it is a man who wants to use the Church to advance his personal political agenda and not to serve it and discretly retrieves support, even to not fall in discredit with the other bishops. Unsupported institutionally and financially, they either fade away immersed in some sort of syncretism or move to the next "church", often some obscure schismatic group in a far away country, again seeking leadership who will not disturb them this side of the world. Ordained priests left behind are financially and institutionally relegated to ostracism, dying in poverty, sorrow and solitude. The initiator of the movement has either died or moved on, and the Orthodox bishops avoiding them to not be associated with that now stigmatized group, waiting and hoping for the silent demise.

Because this group is so huge, I hope that at least some hundreds truly convert to Orthodoxy and will stay behind as the rest simply leaves.

In fact, I wish a miracle happened and a true conversion has happened. But I saw it too many times to believe it. The worst that could happen is that the sheer size of the group had an active corrupting impact in the Church with their radical leftist leanings. All that I do not want to see in the Orthodox Church is the disgrace that Liberation Theology caused in the Roman Church.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 12:59:06 PM by Fabio Leite »

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

has happened. But I saw it too many times to believe it. The worst that could happen is that the sheer size of the group had an active corrupting impact in the Church with their radical leftist leanings. All that I do not want to see in the Orthodox Church is the disgrace that Liberation Theology caused in the Roman Church.

Your class bias is showing mister. But, in a way, you are in the wrong place if you think the orthodox have anything compared to the organized reaction to leftist politics the upper class Catholics in Latin America or USA have. Nada, I'll tell you. So it is a smart move for those Mayans. it probably gives them more wiggle room as we are not bound by Leo the thirteen's dogmatic teachings about "class harmony' and all that reactionary nonsense.

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Augustin717 has a point.... at least since Archbishop Macarios III of Cyprus, the Greek Orthodox have a pretty good track-record of supporting anti-colonial struggles. One might be able to draw parallels between these Mayans and the groups in Kenya who found Orthodoxy out of a desire to find an authentic Christianity with no colonialist associations (well, at least in their region...). If Orthodoxy and the Mau Mau can work well together, there's pretty good precedent for Orthodox cooperation with indigenous and land reform movements in Latin America.