! That's what discourse is like these days in this strange collective we call America: trading rants.

I had this idea to start a meetup group in my neck of the woods in which Pro- and Anti-Trumpians would come together and discuss, hang out, get to know each other. But ... 1) I don't know if I could abide pro-Trump talk without losing it; 2) I don't know if getting matter and antimatter together could happen without some sort of violent explosion!

Pardon me, it seems to me there is too much anger in the American thinking and behavior. Leftist, "liberal" or rightist - there seems to be much overreaction against eachother.

Some, perhaps many of us (on both sides) think the situation is dire enough to merit an equally dire response.

Anger can be a useful emotion indicating that something is amiss and needs attention/fixing. Anger can also go horribly wrong and turn into rage, violence, persecution. There's a goodly amount of both flavors of anger in the US of A now. Which wolf do we feed?

To me it seems - since 2012 - the behavior and expression of thoughts became more and more aggressive. So, often I observe angry speech without real reason. It makes me wonder what is going on over there in your big country.

I thought about one day and narrowed down the timeframe to the same one you've pointed out. Around the beginning of Obama's second term, something started happening. Maybe the economy instigated some latent force into effect. That's part of the reason I'm pro-Trump. Trump isn't Hitler by any stretch of the imagination, but if he hadn't won, I shudder to think of who would have come in 2020 or 2024. Now things are out in the open. This is the American reality and we have the opportunity to deal with it and move forward. Trump represents the America that gets left at home while those you foreigners meet are out on business. This is the real us. Welcome to our homeland.

... Yet, what is even more baffling and sad are the people that continue to support him.

Sadly, this is not too mysterious.

For the Republican party, who (temporarily) control house, senate and presidency, this is a chance to ram through as many federal judicial appointments as possible. Hard to overstate how valuable that is for them.

For the actual electorate that continue to support him - in large part the blame lies with the democrats. They abandoned their natural role as the party of the blue collar worker, as opposed to the Republicans who had over time become the party of the plutocrats. They abandoned the rural electorate. They allowed that territory to be claimed by the religious, the racist and the xenophobic, because they had simple and comforting stories to tell that work with those voters. It will be decades, if ever, before they can retake that. It was not helped by the Republicans deciding that truth wasn't an important part of public life, but they should have known what they were doing.

Yep, a very accurate assessment in my opinion.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Now things are out in the open. This is the American reality and we have the opportunity to deal with it and move forward.

Yes, a good thing, I agree. It's kind of like that point in therapy where your dark side gets brought out from the shadows into the light. Powerful, scary, ugly (and beautiful).

But an important part of the nature of Americans is that we tend to be quite easily emotionally and intellectually manipulated. So hardcore pro-Trumpians can be pushed, by a master of manipulation like The Donald, to think/do good-kind-compassionate things or bad-violent-narcissistic things. Likewise, hardcore anti-Trumpistos (like me) can be pushed by media/journalists we watch to think/do good or bad.

So when you say "American reality" ... that reality is quite fluid and formed to a large extent by persuasion.

... Yet, what is even more baffling and sad are the people that continue to support him.

Sadly, this is not too mysterious.

For the Republican party, who (temporarily) control house, senate and presidency, this is a chance to ram through as many federal judicial appointments as possible. Hard to overstate how valuable that is for them.

For the actual electorate that continue to support him - in large part the blame lies with the democrats. They abandoned their natural role as the party of the blue collar worker, as opposed to the Republicans who had over time become the party of the plutocrats. They abandoned the rural electorate. They allowed that territory to be claimed by the religious, the racist and the xenophobic, because they had simple and comforting stories to tell that work with those voters. It will be decades, if ever, before they can retake that. It was not helped by the Republicans deciding that truth wasn't an important part of public life, but they should have known what they were doing.

The Judicial appointments are absolutely the most powerful things that this administration has done, with the farthest-reaching implications. The Tax Plan will be a mess twenty years down the road, but it's fixable. Not so sure about our International Relations policy--the Korea and Jerusalem issues can't be measured yet, but things don't look as rosy as the Trumpsters think.

I also agree with your assessment of the Democratic Party's failure. Simply stated, apathetic low DEM turnout was largely what gave Trump the win. Why was there such low turnout? Why did the Dem campaign(s) not connect with people in Blue Collar areas? Why were so many Democrats shocked when Trump won? Including, of course, the pollsters and the Media talking heads?

These are important questions, and I am afraid the Dems in power have not confronted them adequately. Take the Correspondent's Dinner, for instance....it was a display of Liberal superiority that will push more moderate people away. Some of the jokes were funny, and there was much Truth spoken, but there was certainly an element of "Snark" on full display. Hollywood and the Entertainment Industry in general are quick to pass judgement on many of the people supporting their industries, as are the Highly Educated Urban Elites.

There will be those voters who stick to Trump no matter what, or to any White Conservative GOP candidate who sufficiently expresses the ideological purity of that party--and by that, I mean the new ideology, not the Fiscally Conservative Small Gov'.t /Business-friendly/rather Libertarian re Social and Privacy Issues GOP of old, though some of those elements are still present in today's Republican party. I am talking about the xenophobic, truly racist, under-educated, pawns of the GOP (and even saying such I think I reflect the Liberal Elite's inevitable tendency to condescend.) But I think that, among Trump supporters, those are a minority. There are people who voted for Obama, once or even twice, and then voted for Trump. And there were many people who voted for Obama once, or twice, but who did not even vote in 2016.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

! That's what discourse is like these days in this strange collective we call America: trading rants.

I had this idea to start a meetup group in my neck of the woods in which Pro- and Anti-Trumpians would come together and discuss, hang out, get to know each other. But ... 1) I don't know if I could abide pro-Trump talk without losing it; 2) I don't know if getting matter and antimatter together could happen without some sort of violent explosion!

I've actually had conversations with Trump supporters. They are typically misinformed and full of conspiracy theories, but believe it or not, where I live they are easier to talk to than many liberals, and often less doctrinaire. That's probably more telling of my area than anything else. The last Trump supporter I talked to is a hispanic dude too He was totally full of crap politically, but he was friendlier than 90% of the white middle class liberals i'm around regularly, and just said what he thought, instead of walking on eggshells about what he was supposed to say. I think his ideas are ridiculous, and I know Trump will not be good for him.. but I get why he's mad, particularly at the Democrats and what he perceives as "PC" culture taking precedence over the lives of "average folks". I get why with his worldview, he'd think Trump is the solution. The challenge for the future is that swaying people like him away from Trumpism will be difficult because there is no party on the left in power, nor any foreseeable future where a left party will speak to the needs of these people, much less provide a different view.

I'll again point out, in many cities there are people with lots of money who call themselves "liberals" (whether they are or not) and espouse all the things that means, who are pushing people out with their whiskey distilleries, tapas bars, condos and lofts, and whatever else. Those people are on the top of the food chain where I live...it's not hard to see where the guy I was talking to gets his animosity. Trump will be able to manipulate class to his advantage until it becomes a central part of the political conversation on the left again.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Now things are out in the open. This is the American reality and we have the opportunity to deal with it and move forward.

Yes, a good thing, I agree. It's kind of like that point in therapy where your dark side gets brought out from the shadows into the light. Powerful, scary, ugly (and beautiful).

Illusory category, though. If you're still thinking in terms of "light" and "dark," "left" and "right," you've missed the punchline entirely. The seemingly hidden was never truly unmanifest.

But an important part of the nature of Americans is that we tend to be quite easily emotionally and intellectually manipulated. So hardcore pro-Trumpians can be pushed, by a master of manipulation like The Donald, to think/do good-kind-compassionate things or bad-violent-narcissistic things. Likewise, hardcore anti-Trumpistos (like me) can be pushed by media/journalists we watch to think/do good or bad.

The "Left" is actually much more sophisticated in its methods, to the point that they psychologically project a good deal onto Trump that leaves them chasing their own tails. His methods are not quantum rocket surgery.

He's an intelligent man and should not be underestimated, but because the "Left" can't see past their own noses, the simplicity of his appeal confounds them.

So when you say "American reality" ... that reality is quite fluid and formed to a large extent by persuasion.

Old habits die hard, if they ever die at all. But there are emergent properties within those habits that I believe are promising for the future.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Trump will be able to manipulate class to his advantage until it becomes a central part of the political conversation on the left again.

Makes sense. So maybe one can see The Donald as a kind of necessary, if painful, course correction? A bit of:

See what happens when we let social/cultural/financial inequity go (relatively) unchecked!

I don't know, I try not to assign emotional values to events like these. I think that his presidency is revealing things we would take a close look at, if we are smart. So far though, people on the left appear to not be smart, and it is only a small, less vocal minority who take the view that Trump is a wake up call..the mainstream still just wants to focus on him and how awful he is, without cleaning up their own backyard. Until that happens, I feel like Trumpism is here to stay.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Trump will be able to manipulate class to his advantage until it becomes a central part of the political conversation on the left again.

Makes sense. So maybe one can see The Donald as a kind of necessary, if painful, course correction? A bit of:

See what happens when we let social/cultural/financial inequity go (relatively) unchecked!

I don't know, I try not to assign emotional values to events like these. I think that his presidency is revealing things we would take a close look at, if we are smart. So far though, people on the left appear to not be smart, and it is only a small, less vocal minority who take the view that Trump is a wake up call..the mainstream still just wants to focus on him and how awful he is, without cleaning up their own backyard. Until that happens, I feel like Trumpism is here to stay.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Makes sense. So maybe one can see The Donald as a kind of necessary, if painful, course correction? A bit of:

See what happens when we let social/cultural/financial inequity go (relatively) unchecked!

I don't know, I try not to assign emotional values to events like these. I think that his presidency is revealing things we would take a close look at, if we are smart. So far though, people on the left appear to not be smart, and it is only a small, less vocal minority who take the view that Trump is a wake up call..the mainstream still just wants to focus on him and how awful he is, without cleaning up their own backyard. Until that happens, I feel like Trumpism is here to stay.

Face it Trump is a fascist, and wants to be Dear Leader for life.

It's less important to me what Trump is than what his opposition is doing, right now that's basically squat. Particularly important if he is an actual fascist.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

He's definitely not Patrician Republican. He's not West Coast Republican (Reagan/McCain). He lines up pretty well with the former Democrats who flipped when LBJ signed the civil rights legislation, and he taps into that with dog whistles - though his bigotry is different than Southern racism. That group overlaps with Evangelicals, but his personal morals don't make him a good fit with those people - that's a marriage of convenience and as long as he keeps delivering judges like Gorsich, and Pence keeps winking out to them, he'll keep their vote. He's not a Wall Street Republican, though he is Pro-Business Lobby, I'd say mostly because of his business background. So who's left? Reactionary ethnics exemplified by guys like Hannity and Reilly, Scaramucci, Jeanine Pirro, Guiliani, Chris Chritie, etc. etc. If you spend time in the New York area, you know exactly who these people are. That's who he really sits with - they're all more or less from the same place, geographically or at least psychologically - what we call "the Bridge and Tunnel" - areas on outside of Manhattan. Its a certain type of non-Park Avenue New York/New Jersey Republican.

I would further argue, he won over the Rust Belt, the area that actually decided the last election, not with the Republican brand, or his personality, but with populist promises of trade wars and border walls - issues that played to economic insecurities of the post-industrial Mid-West. These were people who voted union up to half a generation ago, and probably also went for Obama in good proportion. Probably would have gone Bernie and definitely would have gone Biden. Aside from all the problems with Clinton, her biggest mistake was aligning herself most visibly with the new Democratic coalition of minorities and women and ignoring the Rust belt that she apparently took for granted.

in terms of policy

Policy wise, he's basically pro-business, spiced with ostentatious disregard for the environment and international coalitions, and half-cocked populist slogans (its remarkable that "Build that Wall" was supposed to be a throwaway line that he didn't even like until the crowds started going crazy for it.)

Since he became a public figure back in the late 70s, he's been a carnival barker/used car salesman, who would do or say anything to move his latest project. Being in real estate, he'd do whatever was needed to sell condos. He was never interested in urban planning. His building are crass opulence.

This willingness to do or say anything to make the sale served him well on reality TV, and then on the campaign trail. That China vid above in a way, shows his method. He finds a theme that gets the crowd wild, and he plays it for everything. He's literally admitted that in interviews. "I just say whatever gets a cheer out of the crowd." He can do this so well because he has no shame.

The Jerusalem embassy thing - you know how popular this has made him among Jews? Mind boggling. He's playing to his orthodox business partners. They're all slapping his back down at Mar a Lago, and calling him saying, "Mazel Tov!" And then he lets some Southern Baptist who thinks the second coming will be advanced by the reestablishment of the Temple in Jerusalem give the prayer at the opening!

People in my town can't even pay rent any more, prices have gone so high since the techy gentrifiers moved in (who mostly see themselves as "liberal" warriors for social justice, in a nice twist of historical irony, as they run the poors out of town)

But, you know, they buy free trade, and make sure the municipality is a sanctuary, so they're doing their part, JD!

Amazon is set to take over parts of the federal government

I dunno, man. If they can make government as efficient as Prime Two Day Delivery, I might hand myself over to Alexa.

Trump's sizable role in things like de-regulation attempts

That's just executive prerogative. The real problem is the Imperial Presidency that we have...

The refusal of the left to deal with concrete issues of our time and instead focus on Trump's (admittedly disgusting) personality is one of the things that enabled him to be president, if people keep doing it, he will be president again, I am pretty sure. It's not hat he's so good at manipulation, it's that his opposition is no non existent that all he has to do is make inane promises to the demographic they are ignoring, throw in some good ol' xenophobia, and he outperforms.

Shoulda been Bernie.

two cents. mind dump.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

It's less important to me what Trump is than what his opposition is doing, right now that's basically squat. Particularly important if he is an actual fascist.

This is fascism lite. With no preservatives. From Whole Foods—take-home sample portion. We've been heading this way for a while now. It would be great if we stopped heading in that direction.
On the other hand, I like Donald Trump. He is a great and wise leader. And very entertaining.

Well, his latest crowd pleaser just cost over 50 lives. By his reckoning that's pretty cheap.
I wonder how much his personal fortune improves with every corrupt deal.
We already know the effect on his ego.......like his son, he seems to love the feeling of killing in canned hunts.

I think Trump has just hit his stride. No one can hear the shrill media hyperventilating over his latest outrage, and unless Mueller has a doozy in the pocket, Trumpism is probably steam rolling in 2020, and a good chance Democrats are NOT gaining enough seats to take either house of congress in 2018. Trump is going to go in with economic growth, low unemployment, major shakeups in the Middle East and East Asia. People generally vote their wallets, and I do not rule out people going to vote holding their noses and giving Trump a landslide in 2020.

Democrats are about to be humiliated, again.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

I think Trump has just hit his stride. No one can hear the shrill media hyperventilating over his latest outrage, and unless Mueller has a doozy in the pocket, Trumpism is probably steam rolling in 2020, and a good chance Democrats are NOT gaining enough seats to take either house of congress in 2018. Trump is going to go in with economic growth, low unemployment, major shakeups in the Middle East and East Asia. People generally vote their wallets, and I do not rule out people going to vote holding their noses and giving Trump a landslide in 2020.

नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचनThere absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

I think Trump has just hit his stride. No one can hear the shrill media hyperventilating over his latest outrage, and unless Mueller has a doozy in the pocket, Trumpism is probably steam rolling in 2020, and a good chance Democrats are NOT gaining enough seats to take either house of congress in 2018. Trump is going to go in with economic growth, low unemployment, major shakeups in the Middle East and East Asia. People generally vote their wallets, and I do not rule out people going to vote holding their noses and giving Trump a landslide in 2020.

Democrats are about to be humiliated, again.

Post Script... the thought of a generation of Republicans touting Trump the way Reagan has been deified for the last generation will make me very sad about America .

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

I think Trump has just hit his stride. No one can hear the shrill media hyperventilating over his latest outrage, and unless Mueller has a doozy in the pocket, Trumpism is probably steam rolling in 2020, and a good chance Democrats are NOT gaining enough seats to take either house of congress in 2018. Trump is going to go in with economic growth, low unemployment, major shakeups in the Middle East and East Asia. People generally vote their wallets, and I do not rule out people going to vote holding their noses and giving Trump a landslide in 2020.

At the risk of sounding like a crank... it was worse. It was a coalition of Whole Foods shoppers patting themselves on the back, grandmothers from the League of Women Voters who thought it was their turn to have a president, Act Up all grown up having removed the ear rings and put on corporate casual, people with relatives who might get deported, and black church ladies. And goofy older men who play guitar and tell bad jokes to their kids.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta