Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Nosuperstition wrote:Show which manusmriti verse or any other verse that prescribes death penalty for the Dalit who dares to intentionally appear before a Brahmin.

Nowhere in the long list of derogatory Manusmriti verses do I find death penalty prescribed for a Dalit appearing intentionally before a Brahmin.

When you learn why Dalits are not mentioned in Manusmrithi, you would not only learn a bit about Hinduism, but also would learn to debate a bit more knowledgeably about Hinduism. I will wait until then.

(I am sure one could also produce published articles that prove that Aryans originated in India, that you believe, I bet. I am afraid you are at a stage where you can't tell the difference between 'materials of crap and substance' out there in the web or published. Or that you are prejudiced by certain blind beliefs.)

Yohan wrote:(I am sure one could also produce published articles that prove that Aryans originated in India, that you believe, I bet. I am afraid you are at a stage where you can't tell the difference between 'materials of crap and substance' out there in the web or published. Or that you are prejudiced by certain blind beliefs.)

We know that you are capable of differentiating between crap and material of substance and that is why it is my request you to educate us and tell us the difference.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Nosuperstition wrote:Show which manusmriti verse or any other verse that prescribes death penalty for the Dalit who dares to intentionally appear before a Brahmin.

Nowhere in the long list of derogatory Manusmriti verses do I find death penalty prescribed for a Dalit appearing intentionally before a Brahmin.

When you learn why Dalits are not mentioned in Manusmrithi, you would not only learn a bit about Hinduism, but also would learn to debate a bit more knowledgeably about Hinduism. I will wait until then.

(I am sure one could also produce published articles that prove that Aryans originated in India, that you believe, I bet. I am afraid you are at a stage where you can't tell the difference between 'materials of crap and substance' out there in the web or published. Or that you are prejudiced by certain blind beliefs.)

Well I know your standard answer,Dalits are outcasts,outside the pale of Hinduism hence the Manusmriti does not mention them.

The Rig-Veda states,

He under whose supreme control are horses, all chariots, the villages, and cattle; He who gave being to the Sun and Morning, who leads the waters, He, O men, is Indra. (2.12.7, trans. Griffith)

It further states,

Indra, you lifted up the outcast who was oppressed, you glorified the blind and the lame. (Rg-Veda 2:13:12)[6]

But outcastes are mentioned in the Rig Veda ,hence by the same logic Dalits can be considered Hindus.I have seen many Dalits identifying themselves as Hindu Dalit in matrimonials.

As for Aryan invasion is concerned it might have happened I have found lot of words common between Sanskrit and English and fairer complexion amongst upper echelons of Hindu society.However theories such as that are just based on assumptions and not concrete proofs.One proof for the Aryan invasion theory is that horse is mentioned quite a number of times in the Rig veda whereas no native Indian animals are mentioned.But who knows might be those horses are also present in India back then.Nobody has seen what life exactly was like in those periods.

Just google with words Devadasi and Dalit.It is not just one site but many sites that mention Dalits as being turned into Devadasis and not clean shudras as you claim.So calling them all crap won't lend you any credibility.

Elsewhere you said that Hindus of Kerala were measuring distance to be maintained between members of different castes.So they would have clearly stipulated punishments if those rules were violated.(do not know how Vijaya nagar army comprised of people of all castes if such rules are to be strictly followed).Take your own time and just mention them.Or admit that such laws do not exist.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Fairer complexion can also be the due to a number of post-Aryan phenomena and not necessarily due to Aryans.Linguistic palaeontology is a pseudo science according to Ryan of the Old Forum.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Idesigner wrote:Yes Obama gave that speech.His speech in Cairo was still worst. Many presidents have uttered Dhimmi words but when Obama parrots it , it is considred as destroying first amendment or attacking free speech, Well after all he has power to change constitution!!

When Obama attacks muslims with drones and killed Osama , our FFI Pundits dismiss it as muslims killing muslims , hence it doesn't matter or worst its all conspiracy as Osama was not killed and those drone killing was done by Pakistan They are all together in it.

Idesigner, please get a life and stop talking crap. Obama is a dhimmi minded, I agree, so is ex-President George Bush. The Indian leaders are the greatest dhimmis, hundred time greater than Obama. Most of politicians in Europe are dhimmi minded. Actually, Obama is the least dhimmi minded. The irrational hatred of Obama drips from every word in your post.

I disagree with Obama on many points but he is not how you describe him. We all must be fair in our criticism. I am not a fan of George Bush, but I do agree with him on certain points.

What proof do you have that he destroying the First Amendment? This is my last response to your big nonsense. So enjoy.

skynightblaze wrote: Let me make clarify that I am not interested in defending anyone including the brahmins because I know they have been the arseholes in the past. Just to give an example, my mother's eldest aunt (90 years back) was interested in pursuing her studies however people of those times including brahmins used to spit on her because they did not like a woman getting education. She used to come back home and change her clothes and go back.

Maitreyi,Gargi,Sita are some of the learned feminine characters in the Itihaasas and Puranas who are depicted as having engaged their male counterparts in theological debates and discussions.

One medieval Telugu poetess Molla wrote the Telugu Ramayana in poetic form.Another medieval poetess Tallapaaka Timmakka wrote a lengthy poem named Subhadra Parinayam.

The poem Tiruppavai written by devotee medieval Tamil poetess Andal also known as Godadaevi is recited in Vaishnavite South Indian temples during sacred months.

The personalised form of arts and education in Hinduism is a female goddess called Saraswati.

Portuguese wrote that in Vijayanagar Empire even women were able to wield swords with as much ease as that of men.There were many Hindu queens.It was the Maratha queen Tara Bai who defeated Afghans in battles after the death of her husband.

Might be Hindus picked up those misogynist trends from their misogynist rulers who ruled for centuries together.

So misogynist tendencies might be seen in some areas but one cannot paint the whole Hindu society with the same brush.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Idesigner wrote:Hinduism will survive and do well if blasphemy law is removed. Hinduism survived destruction of its worshipping places , forced conversions and outright suppressions and nude depiction by that Muslim painter. I doubt if Islam can survive in absence of state sponsored blasphemy laws.

The Hindoos made a general massacre of the mussulmauns,and erected a platform with their heads on the field of battle. Theyfollowed the sultan into his own country, which they wasted with fireand sword, took many places, broke down many mosques and holy places,slaughtered the people without mercy; by their actions seeming todischarge the treasured malice and resentment of ages. Sultan FirozeShaw, in the exigence of distress, requested aid of the sultan ofGuzarat, who, having but just acceded to the throne, could affordnone. At last fortune took a turn favourable to his affairs, and theenemy, after repeated battles, were expelled from his dominions bythe Sultan's brother, Khankhanan; but these misfortunes dwelt on themind of Firoze Shaw, now old, and he fell into a lingering disorderand lowness of spirits."

While it is doubtful that general massacres,desecration of places of worship would cause a religion to disappear outright it will certainly cause a lowness of spirits.All human beings have more or less the same psychology, if it had happened with the muslims it can also and would have also happened in case of Hindus.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Nosupersition,Before I answer any of your points, I want to know what History books on India have you read? Also it appears as though you want to be admited into the real Hinduism so desperately, and accepted as such. What is your real caste?

Last edited by Yohan on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yohan wrote:Nosupersition,Before I answer any of your points, I want to know what History books on India have you read? Also it appears as though you want to be admited into the real Hinduism so desperately, and accepted as such. What is your real caste?

Yohan wrote:I doubt you are sufficiently well read in either the history of India or Hinduism to discuss it intelligently. Further, the sacred laws of Hinduism prohibit people of certain castes from describing or defending Hinduism, because they are supposedly ignorant on such matters. If you are one of those, please refrain.

I have read one history book that describes local history of A.P and one book written by Inder Malhotra that describes history of India.Anyway if I mention my caste you will say that I am not qualified to defend Hinduism.So why mention it.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Yohan wrote:What I tried to say was that British didn't come to India to conquer it, but to trade. It was the Indians who created situations in the subcontinent so they ended up conquering it. Blame the Indians, and not the British!

So next time we know that when someone comes to trade in USA , you would have no problem if he cheats you!

Yohanuman wrote:- Punishment for any disobeying Dalit was death. Not much has changed even today. News get reported occassionaly, about Dalit boys being hanged from trees for even whistling at Brahmin girls.

It shows that you simply do not have any clue. This is not allowed by law today. I can show similar cases where in the lower caste people harass the upper caste ones. Exceptions occur everywhere but that does not mean we start generalizing.

I saw in the history channel or the discovery channel that prior to era of granting equal rights to all irrespective of race in the U.S in 1965,whites in the racist South used to lynch or hang those black males who dared to look at white females.Back then Jim Crow laws were in place in racist U.S South.May be Yohan made up this narrative of Dalit boys getting hanged for whistling at Brahmin girls taking a cue from such stories.

Last edited by Nosuperstition on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Yohan wrote:- Punishment for any disobeying Dalit was death. Not much has changed even today. News get reported occassionaly, about Dalit boys being hanged from trees for even whistling at Brahmin girls.

I searched the net for any such punishment and didn't find proof for existence of such punishments.However in one anti-Hindu site,the Keralite upper caste Nairs could kill the Pariahs if they inadvertantly defiled them by touching.It is for such practices that swami Vivekananda called Kerala a madhouse of castes.So you might be mistaking the Nairs for Brahmins and touching with appearing in sight.

It would be improper to generalise the situation of whole of sub-continental Pariahs with that prevalent in Kerala.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Nosuperstition wrote:I saw in the history channel or the discovery channel that prior to era of granting equal rights to all irrespective of race in the U.S in 1965,whites in the racist South used to lynch or hang those black males who dared to look at white females.Back then Jim Crow laws were in place in racist U.S South.[b]May be Yohan made up this narrative of Dalit boys getting hanged for whistling at Brahmin girls taking a cue from such stories.

If you are from Indian subcontinent then you can be assured that he will play these mental games to ridicule you. When it comes to me I am more than thrilled to play with him. I am sure after he plays with me, he will automatically salute an Indian when he sees one.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Nosuperstition wrote:I saw in the history channel or the discovery channel that prior to era of granting equal rights to all irrespective of race in the U.S in 1965,whites in the racist South used to lynch or hang those black males who dared to look at white females.Back then Jim Crow laws were in place in racist U.S South.May be Yohan made up this narrative of Dalit boys getting hanged for whistling at Brahmin girls taking a cue from such stories.

[b]If you are from Indian subcontinent then you can be assured that he will play these mental games to ridicule you. When it comes to me I am more than thrilled to play with him. I am sure after he plays with me, he will automatically salute an Indian when he sees one.

But the fellow is quite learned.

Yohan wrote:We all try to be good humans first, don't we? But Hinduism prevents one from doing so. It brands one into a caste from birth from which one can't escape. Then that person is either humiliated or praised for belonging to that caste. So it is your religion which makes one to hate another. How could one find inspiration from such a religion? In other words, how can one take inspiration from a religion which teaches one to despise others or praise others based upon one's birth?

What he said is very much true and the source of such things was definately the Manusmriti which brands the whole class of Shudras(not caste remember which is a subset of class)as despicable.

Sudras are despicableManu 8:16 For divine justice (is said to be) a bull (vrisha); that (man) who violates it (kurute 'lam) the gods consider to be (a man despicable like) a Sudra (vrishala); let him, therefore, beware of violating justice.

However as I had pointed out earlier Sudra castes such as Reddy,Kamma,Kapu and Velama got elevated to good conduct Shudra castes,I only hope so that every caste gets elevated as such or atleast individuals are not judged based on their birth and are instead judged based on conduct as stated by Buddha.

Afterall Hinduism had been flexible or adaptable in removing the label of despicability on certain castes of Shudra class.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

NoSuperstition wrote:What he said is very much true and the source of such things was definately the Manusmriti which brands the whole class of Shudras(not caste remember which is a subset of class)as despicable.

How seriously do the hindus take Manusmriti? Besides that ,the sanskrit word manusmriti can be broken as Manu + Smriti . Smriti means memory/laws/thoughts. Now Manu was a sage so the meaning of the word is thoughts/laws of sage Manu. SO even hindus accept that it is not a work of God.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

According to Akhilesh Mittal,a historian who writes in the Deccan Chronicle, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion a million people were slaughtered.

Yes aftermath of 1857 was extremely brutal. So far number goes we dont have any historical witnesses. Mittal and others often takees lots of undelivered mail from those days as proof. As if nascent postal system was widely used by numeous illiterate people.It was not in distance past. We have records from many princely states. Few I am bit familiar.My small town in India was at cross road wheere Tatya Topes soldiers took refuge. All talk about hanging of lots of captured soldiers and theirsupporters, sympathizers and people who gave them refuge.

Yes English leveled quite afew villages around Delhi and in UP. If Mittal can locate numerous mass graves in UP I would believe the number. Brit troops used to bury hindus and burn muslims. If we can locate lots of cemeteries of muslims following the aftermath then we can check out his numbers. This didnt happen in historic past.

Brits of Clive time were pretty brutal and predatory when they got hold of Bengal. Lots of looting, brigandary by Brits took place. Later they will destroy lots home industry related to weaving.They were foreign rulers who came to India for business and later loved to rule innferior races.

English became wary of employing upper caste soldiers and became extremely wary of employing muslims after 1857 rebellion and as a result started to diversify and employ even those of lower caste as soldiers.Previously they believed in the theory of martial races and upper castes as well as muslims were considered being more martial.But I read that particular region of South the percentage of literates was higher prior to British rule.Both muslims and upper caste Hindus had high literacy,so Mittal's research may be true indeed.It is to one such low caste soldier that Ambedkar was born ,I read somewhere.

Would you also ascertain that nearly 6 million Jews did not perish in the Holocaust just because their mortal remains or evidence does not exist?Or do you go by pre war and post war population records of Jews to ascertain/determine the scale of the Holocaust?

I do not intend to trivialise what happened to the Jews.Both women and children were forced to go naked before forcing them to go to the gas chambers.If they tried to run away dogs were set upon them.I can understand how they must have felt.Just want to know want constitutes the hard evidence.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

iffo wrote:Quite disappointed with India, I thought it was a secular country. Not sure if this woman was Muslim but even of she is Hindu arresting her for a comment on her face book is pathetic. It's exactly what Saudi Arabia did. These third world countries will never become civilized .

It has become fashionable in India to arrest and drag people to court for exercizing their right to 'freedom of expression', whether it is by speech, writing, or actions. Only USA has full 'freedom of expression' rights. In all other countries it is very subjective. There in lies the problem.Also keep in mind that though India has freedom of religion, people are excessively religious and tend to be chavinistic on religious and communal matters. This even extends to the south asian communites in the West. These people seem to be permanently celebrating one or another religious function whether, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim or Christian during every weekend, so much so that it has become a disease.

Yohan wrote: Freedom of religion is the basic freedom of human beings. Hindus have no right to take it away. India is not a theocracy. It will be the minorities whose anger will spill over if this 'freedom' is removed.

So from which disease were you suffering when those vindictive,vengeful thoughts sprouted out of your mind?What happened to all those turn your other cheek and other niceties which you were offering as merits of Christianity?

Yohan wrote:Have you ever heard about a few Christian principles like the following Christianity is known for:- Love your enemy- Turn the other cheek- One who committed no sin cast the first stone- And so onWhat is superstitious about them? Tell me! It is such things modern Christians try to follow, not the superstitious part.

Might be here the urge to not forgive the unrepentant sinner as per the Bible overweighs all of the above.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.

Just to clarify ,I do not hold any grudge against the britishers on this forum because I cannot blame anyone here for the deeds of their ancestors. I have made some great friends here from Britain and I certainly do not hate them.

frankie wrote:Islam was spread by the sword because Allah and his prophet commands it,and gives Muslims clear instructions how and why it should be done.The Quran and Mohammed's example, "mirror" 7th century Arabian way of life,they lived by tribal warfare.

Similarly,the battles in the O.T." mirror" the same culteral practice in the ancient world,kingdoms are fought for and lost,and people lose their lives.Moses was a man of his time,just like Mohammed,BUT the difference in Mose's battles were not to propagate faith in God,they are held within an historical setting,restricted to a specific peoples.

Smiley wrote:The Indians even, more tolerant and pacific, were astounded to see the God of Christianism more cruel than that of Mohammed, deserted the territory of the Portuguese and went to the lands of the Muslims, with whom time had made peaceful living possible, in spite of the fact that they (Indians) had received from them enormous and incalculable evils. In this fashion the fields and cities became deserted as are today Diu and Goa “

So by the same token everyone the Portuguese,the Jews,the Catholics,the Muslims and the British deserve being forgiven as the standards were different back then when everyone subscribed to the idea of wars of conquest being just.But one just hopes so that the present day standards do not degenerate and slip once again into the ages of invasions and conquests.I personally hate to be the victim in the invaded territory and I fully support whatever measures the aggrieved party takes to shake off invasions.When the memes of the invading and the invaded parties are different,the friction experienced between concerned parties is likely to be more.

If special status could be granted to many states in India based on backwardness, then it can also be granted to remnant A. P which was deliberately rendered backward due to malicious policy of divide and rule.After division,percapita income of Telangana is Rs 20,000 /-more than that of remnant A.P.