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Topic: Racism (Read 15761 times)

I haven't been subject to racism, just my own issues with feeling out of place as the only Anglo-Irish Aussie in a crowd of Greeks or Lebanese. But that's my problem, not theirs.

When I went to a Coptic Church, the priest was so welcoming that he even asked me to come up the front to read the Epistle for the day. I'm not sure if it was entirely canonical, but it was certainly an effective way of letting me know that I was welcome there.

It could also be because you have no Greek or Middle Eastern accent. (I am not saying by this that it was not to let you know that you were welcome. )

My own little mission parish in Aberdeen, MS is a Greek Orthodox Archdiocese mission parish, and it does, indeed, include some people who are ethnic Greeks. But there are also half-Greeks (children of mixed marriages), and there are a few non-Greeks like my wife and myself. I don't know, is this is because we are so mixed, or because our priest is not an ethnic Greek, or because of other reasons, but there is no "enthocentrism" or Greek chauvinism there. Neither my wife nor I ever felt any hostility, never noticed any expression of the feeling that we are not welcome, from any of our parishioners - including older women and men who are "as Greek as they come."

Again, as I always say in reply to any post about hostility from "ethnic folks..." If you are a 100% "Anglo" and come to an "ethnic" or a partially "ethnic" parish - SHOW RESPECT. Show GENUINE INTEREST in the parishioners' ethnicity, language, culture, history, geography etc. This WILL make their attitude toward you much better very soon. If you behave otherwise, then don't complain that the "ethnics" don't like you. You need to make this move. It's very easy to do and it is just a simple, basic, elementary human kindness...

Near the beginning there is a bible reading that I think the priest picks out. The deacon reads from the bible and the reading varies from week to week. The priest also talks about various topics. Last week he talked about Jesus and his ascention into heaven after he had been with the disciples, and how Peter had denied him three times.

The prayer of confession is also in English. The Nicene Creed is also recited in English.

On the fourth Sunday of the month, the sermon and bible reading are in Arabic but the prayer of confession and Nicene Creed are still in English.

Every week the hymns are in Aramaic/Syriac.

Also, the liturgy book has the English meaning next to every Aramaic sentence. The liturgy book is also in English with the Aramaic of course, and at the back of the book it is in Arabic.

:O Of course not the whole divine liturgy in English! Why? Why would anyone want to change this beautiful service? Why should they cater to people who want them to change everything about the service the first day they attend?

If anyone doesn't agree, find on YouTube a rendition of Abun Dbashmayo trust me it moves me to tears! Why would I sing it in English? Jesus taught it in Aramaic.

I am a potential convert and I would be heartbroken if they changed it all to English! I'd rather learn Aramaic and Arabic like everyone else (which I am)...

:O Of course not the whole divine liturgy in English! Why? Why would anyone want to change this beautiful service?

If anyone doesn't agree, find on YouTube a rendition of Abun Dbashmayo trust me it moves me to tears! Why would I sing it in English? Jesus taught it in Aramaic.

I am a potential convert and I would be heartbroken if they changed it all to English! I'd rather learn Aramaic and Arabic like everyone else (which I am)...

Because the Fathers wrote that we have not even received the fullness of revelation until we have heard it all in our own language.

And no, I don't see anything inherently beautiful about the Liturgy being in one language over another; except that I think that all people hearing the Liturgy in their own native language is what is beautiful.

Because the Fathers wrote that we have not even received the fullness of revelation until we have heard it all in our own language.

And no, I don't see anything inherently beautiful about the Liturgy being in one language over another; except that I think that all people hearing the Liturgy in their own native language is what is beautiful.

But if they changed the liturgy in my church, then the liturgy would not be heard in the native language of the majority of participants...Why would I barge in there and ask them to change how they have done things for 2,000 years? So, if you want to go to a certain church you want them to tailor the liturgy especially to you???

There are American Orthodox Churches too. I think they might be in English if you would prefer that.

But if they changed the liturgy in my church, then the liturgy would not be heard in the native language of the majority of participants...

I just said that it wasn't about English itself, but rather about native language. In a Syriac Orthodox community where the predominant first language was Arabic, I would advocate the use of Arabic as the predominant language of the liturgy, unless of course Syriac happens to be similar enough to Arabic that they understand 75% or more of it. Otherwise, I do not think it reasonable to continue to have the Liturgy in Syriac rather than Arabic.

Why would I barge in there and ask them to change how they have done things for 2,000 years?

You don't really need to do that. I just don't think it's right for the SOC to continue to use Syriac as the predominant language of the Liturgy if the faithful are not even understanding it. But if there are some non-Arabic speakers coming in, it would be reasonable to use some English as well as Arabic.

What if your a convert who prefers to worship in a traditional liturgical language? I personally love OCS and think it sounds so much more beautiful then does English (But that's just me ).

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

What if your a convert who prefers to worship in a traditional liturgical language?

It depends. Do you understand the language?

What difference does it make if I do or don't understand it? Is it not my right to worship God in any language I choose, whether known or unknown to my ears? Also, just because I don't know a language doesn't mean that I can't learn it over time.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

What if your a convert who prefers to worship in a traditional liturgical language?

It depends. Do you understand the language?

What difference does it make if I do or don't understand it? Is it not my right to worship God in any language I choose, whether known or unknown to my ears? Also, just because I don't know a language doesn't mean that I can't learn it over time.

No, I don't think its your right, at least not in terms of what is a correct usage of the Liturgy. The Liturgy should be served in a language that the people understand, anything else is an abuse of the Church.

What if your a convert who prefers to worship in a traditional liturgical language?

It depends. Do you understand the language?

What difference does it make if I do or don't understand it? Is it not my right to worship God in any language I choose, whether known or unknown to my ears? Also, just because I don't know a language doesn't mean that I can't learn it over time.

No, I don't think its your right, at least not in terms of what is a correct usage of the Liturgy. The Liturgy should be served in a language that the people understand, anything else is an abuse of the Church.

So almost all Orthodox Churches, which use antiquated languages for services are practicing liturgical abuse?

Thank you your All-Holiness for that enlightened proclamation .

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

I smiled when I read about the little old man that was not pleased with the way that you were dressed...the thought came to me...what if he was standing there when Noah and his family came out of the Ark....followed by all the animals....built an alter and worshiped God...even though I was not there...I can tell you right now they did not look good...never mind the smell...they had enough love for the Lord to worship Him regardless the way they looked or smelled...as for Racism...we all came from that bunch in the Ark.

I also remember reading a quote from John Chrysostom that essentially said that if the people have not heard the liturgy (or perhaps just the scriptures in the liturgy) in their native language that they have not received the fullness of the Christian revelation. I'll try to find it again.

I second you Robb. I mean, I am a convert and I am hearing the liturgy in Aramaic - Jesus' language. I love it and I would never ever change it.

My ears may not understand but my heart understands! That is the amazing about life - our hearts speak every language. This may sound odd but watch a foreign movie without subtitles and you will understand what is being said. I once listened to a song in a language that I didn't yet speak and I cried because I knew deep down what it was about (it was a very sad song). Only after a year of studying the language did I realize I had understood everything when I heard the song. My ears didn't - my heart did.

and others. Yes, I understand the liturgy. First, my heart does and then slowly but surely, my ears will.

This thread is driving me nuts. Basically deusveritaset is an enquirer, only having stepped one foot in the church and is proclaiming that the church is practicing liturgical abuse! Why should they cater to you? And then he says it should be in the language of the people. Well, there is a village in Syria where they still teach their children Aramaic and Arabic. My church is 99.9% Arabic speakers and the liturgy is conducted in Aramaic and Arabic. Now, if you went into such a church I am curious if you would be demanding English, even though Aramaic and Arabic are the languages of the people.

Please try something deusveritaset. Listen with your heart, not your ears. You will be amazed at how much you understand.

I second you Robb. I mean, I am a convert and I am hearing the liturgy in Aramaic - Jesus' language. I love it and I would never ever change it.

My ears may not understand but my heart understands! That is the amazing about life - our hearts speak every language. This may sound odd but watch a foreign movie without subtitles and you will understand what is being said. I once listened to a song in a language that I didn't yet speak and I cried because I knew deep down what it was about (it was a very sad song). Only after a year of studying the language did I realize I had understood everything when I heard the song. My ears didn't - my heart did.

and others. Yes, I understand the liturgy. First, my heart does and then slowly but surely, my ears will.

This thread is driving me nuts. Basically deusveritaset is an enquirer, only having stepped one foot in the church and is proclaiming that the church is practicing liturgical abuse! Why should they cater to you? And then he says it should be in the language of the people. Well, there is a village in Syria where they still teach their children Aramaic and Arabic. My church is 99.9% Arabic speakers and the liturgy is conducted in Aramaic and Arabic. Now, if you went into such a church I am curious if you would be demanding English, even though Aramaic and Arabic are the languages of the people.

Please try something deusveritaset. Listen with your heart, not your ears. You will be amazed at how much you understand.

Dear Blissfully Unaware,

I am not against languages other than English being used during the Orthodox services. In fact, if there were more Greek in my Greek parish during our Divine Liturgies, I would be happy and grateful! I love foreign languages generally, and it pleases me to hear the liturgical proclamations in the language of St. John Chrysostomos's original.

But I am against "mechanical" hearing of some foreign text and accepting it without rational understanding. I think that if there are non-Aramaic native speakers in your parish, you guys should have a brochure where there are two texts, one Aramaic and the other English, in parallel. That's what we have at our parish - parallel Greek and English texts of the Divine Liturgy and of some hymns. It does help a lot, it does make the whole thing closer to your heart AND also to your brain.

This "liturgical abuse" begins when there is no rational understanding of the service. Fr. Alexander Schmemann wrote in his journals how he visited several ACROD parishes that were quite small and consisted mostly of those who had been born in the USA. He was amazed that these people sang and chanted the whole liturgy in Old Church Slavonic, but NOT ONE of them understood even ONE word of what they were singing and chanting. Fr. Alexander asked several parishioners to translate the liturgy into English for him, and no one could. But they all said that they were "proud to carry on the tradition of our ancestors." Now that's wrong, I think, and arguments like "my heart understands" do not quite convince me.

I was brought into Orthodoxy in Bulgaria (I'm Polish) less than a month ago,

What language is the liturgy conducted in?

Sorry I missed this one. The Liturgy is in Bulgarian. When I read the Symbol of Faith it was in Bulgarian, with a Church Slavonic translation on the next page. My 'Molitvenik' or Prayer Book which I was given as a gift at my Baptism is split between Bulgarian/Church Slavonic.

And after the service an old Greek man came up to me and said I needed better clothes. I said "OK.... me and the family are kinda broke right now ha ha" (trying to laugh it off). He says "Well you need to find some money" and walked off. I was wearing black slacks, dress shoes and a button down.

Good grief.

Yeah, that's a shame. I have been to "ethnic" parishes though where the people were very welcoming (I'm Chinese/Irish). And maybe that one old guy shouldn't be taken as representative of the entire parish.

(I'm Chinese/Irish)

So one half hour later you are hungry for a beer?

Is that Racist?

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 10:29:41 AM by Marc1152 »

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

I know a Greek who married an African-American and was thenceforth ostracized from the Greek church they were attending. They now come to an OCA church, even though it is an extra 20 minutes or so of driving. (I am not saying this to make any generalization about Greeks, the OCA, or anyone else.)

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 10:34:04 AM by Iconodule »

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Quote

“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”

And after the service an old Greek man came up to me and said I needed better clothes. I said "OK.... me and the family are kinda broke right now ha ha" (trying to laugh it off). He says "Well you need to find some money" and walked off. I was wearing black slacks, dress shoes and a button down.

Good grief.

Yeah, that's a shame. I have been to "ethnic" parishes though where the people were very welcoming (I'm Chinese/Irish). And maybe that one old guy shouldn't be taken as representative of the entire parish.

(I'm Chinese/Irish)

So one half hour later you are hungry for a beer?

Is that Racist?

One part of me wants to start a fist-fight with you. The other part wants to smile politely and then poison your family's drinking water.

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Quote

“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”

And after the service an old Greek man came up to me and said I needed better clothes. I said "OK.... me and the family are kinda broke right now ha ha" (trying to laugh it off). He says "Well you need to find some money" and walked off. I was wearing black slacks, dress shoes and a button down.

Good grief.

Yeah, that's a shame. I have been to "ethnic" parishes though where the people were very welcoming (I'm Chinese/Irish). And maybe that one old guy shouldn't be taken as representative of the entire parish.

(I'm Chinese/Irish)

So one half hour later you are hungry for a beer?

Is that Racist?

One part of me wants to start a fist-fight with you. The other part wants to smile politely and then poison your family's drinking water.

And after the service an old Greek man came up to me and said I needed better clothes. I said "OK.... me and the family are kinda broke right now ha ha" (trying to laugh it off). He says "Well you need to find some money" and walked off. I was wearing black slacks, dress shoes and a button down.

Good grief.

Yeah, that's a shame. I have been to "ethnic" parishes though where the people were very welcoming (I'm Chinese/Irish). And maybe that one old guy shouldn't be taken as representative of the entire parish.

(I'm Chinese/Irish)

So one half hour later you are hungry for a beer?

Is that Racist?

One part of me wants to start a fist-fight with you. The other part wants to smile politely and then poison your family's drinking water.

And after the service an old Greek man came up to me and said I needed better clothes. I said "OK.... me and the family are kinda broke right now ha ha" (trying to laugh it off). He says "Well you need to find some money" and walked off. I was wearing black slacks, dress shoes and a button down.

Good grief.

Yeah, that's a shame. I have been to "ethnic" parishes though where the people were very welcoming (I'm Chinese/Irish). And maybe that one old guy shouldn't be taken as representative of the entire parish.

(I'm Chinese/Irish)

So one half hour later you are hungry for a beer?

Is that Racist?

One part of me wants to start a fist-fight with you. The other part wants to smile politely and then poison your family's drinking water.

Nice!

Same reaction when someone wants pierogie rather than pirohi!

Years ago I was a member of an Irish Republican Club ( Sinn Fein) though I am not Irish. Each year the club would march in the annual St. Patrick's day Parade here in DC.

One year before the parade we gathered at the home of a member at about 7 AM. They were pouring really tall tumblers of Irish Whiskey. They offered me one but I said :

" Oh no thanks. I try to stay away from Whiskey before 8 AM."

I have no Chinese stories.

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

I have no problem with being the only white guy in the room. Frankly, I think it would do a lot of whites good to be in the minority for once.

What I've seen in integrated Orthodox parishes is that like gathers unto like -- e.g. Greeks with Greeks, Russians with Russians, WASP converts with WASP converts, young single guys with the pretty Russian girl, etc. That's just basic sociology. But in a well-integrated parish (which I consider mine to be), those initial congregations break up once everyone has said their hellos and everyone mingles around. Since Orthodoxy is such a religious minority around here, one cannot afford to be too cliquish.

I also like the liturgical happy medium that my current parish has -- predominantly in English, significant portions in Arabic and a small amount in Greek. If it is said in a non-English language, it will be repeated in English later.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

I just returned from Ukraine, and I was eating out with my family. My cousin's grandmother from Donets'k was there. I thought we would have a lot of fun talking about my work in Ukraine.

When we started speaking, she spoke Russian and I spoke Ukrainian. This began a lecture which lasted the entire meal. "Stop calling it Lviv! It's Lvov! The Ukrainians wish they were still in Russia! You shouldn't learn Ukrainian, that peasant language! Learn Russian! You're wasting your time! Pryvit? It's PRIVYET!"

Nothing against Russians. I was just very grumpy for the rest of the meal. I should have figured! Ha! (I also didn't take kindly to the peasant insult since my ancestors are Slovak and Hungarian. Excuse moi!)

Back to the subject at hand. There's a lot of Greek culture and language predominant in our church...my husband and I don't mind at all until someone directly speaks to us in Greek, simply because we can't understand and respond.

But I love foreign languages (count how many of them I use in my profile!) so I'm very biased. I'm already learning how to read Greek and I'm just an inquirer, so that should be indicative of my geekiness when it comes to language.

Our priest also repeats the most important parts in English (the Creed, the Our Father, the readings...) so I don't have a problem. My husband isn't particularly gifted when it comes to languages and he loves it as well.

There is a bit of a cultural disconnect, but we're okay with that too. Not an issue, although it may mean that we may never have the tight bonds between the Greek members. Although we may pick up on some of the cultural nuances along the way and maybe go to Greece someday. Who knows?

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

And after the service an old Greek man came up to me and said I needed better clothes. I said "OK.... me and the family are kinda broke right now ha ha" (trying to laugh it off). He says "Well you need to find some money" and walked off. I was wearing black slacks, dress shoes and a button down.

Good grief.

Yeah, that's a shame. I have been to "ethnic" parishes though where the people were very welcoming (I'm Chinese/Irish). And maybe that one old guy shouldn't be taken as representative of the entire parish.

(I'm Chinese/Irish)

So one half hour later you are hungry for a beer?

Is that Racist?

One part of me wants to start a fist-fight with you. The other part wants to smile politely and then poison your family's drinking water.

Nice!

Same reaction when someone wants pierogie rather than pirohi!

Years ago I was a member of an Irish Republican Club ( Sinn Fein) though I am not Irish. Each year the club would march in the annual St. Patrick's day Parade here in DC.

One year before the parade we gathered at the home of a member at about 7 AM. They were pouring really tall tumblers of Irish Whiskey. They offered me one but I said :

I knew a guy with Irish/Chinese parentage. Until he told me so, I had assumed he was Hispanic.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I just returned from Ukraine, and I was eating out with my family. My cousin's grandmother from Donets'k was there. I thought we would have a lot of fun talking about my work in Ukraine.

When we started speaking, she spoke Russian and I spoke Ukrainian. This began a lecture which lasted the entire meal. "Stop calling it Lviv! It's Lvov! The Ukrainians wish they were still in Russia! You shouldn't learn Ukrainian, that peasant language! Learn Russian! You're wasting your time! Pryvit? It's PRIVYET!"

Nothing against Russians. I was just very grumpy for the rest of the meal. I should have figured! Ha! (I also didn't take kindly to the peasant insult since my ancestors are Slovak and Hungarian. Excuse moi!)

Back to the subject at hand. There's a lot of Greek culture and language predominant in our church...my husband and I don't mind at all until someone directly speaks to us in Greek, simply because we can't understand and respond.

But I love foreign languages (count how many of them I use in my profile!) so I'm very biased. I'm already learning how to read Greek and I'm just an inquirer, so that should be indicative of my geekiness when it comes to language.

Our priest also repeats the most important parts in English (the Creed, the Our Father, the readings...) so I don't have a problem. My husband isn't particularly gifted when it comes to languages and he loves it as well.

There is a bit of a cultural disconnect, but we're okay with that too. Not an issue, although it may mean that we may never have the tight bonds between the Greek members. Although we may pick up on some of the cultural nuances along the way and maybe go to Greece someday. Who knows?

To add on to your story...If you were in Uzhorod and were speaking the Rusyn or Lemko dialect, a Ukrainian zealot would approach you and tell you, "Why are you speaking that peasant language.... you need to learn proper Ukrainian," and go on to make similar corrections. Sometimes you just can't win!

I think the underlying reasons that many of our ancestors came to these shores can be summed up with these anecdotes!

this is why I LOVE the OCA, we're all a bunch of different races and ethnicities!

I have found that in Greek Churches, they are Greek before their Orthodox.

a friend of my mothers is an Agnostic, but she was baptized in the Antiochian Orthodox Church with her family as a teenager. when she moved, she went to a Greek Church (the only Orthodox Church in town) and was asked why she was there, as she obviously isn't Greek.

I made a Greek eminarian friend of mine angry when I told him this, he says it's a common occurance in most Greek Churches he knows of.

this is why I LOVE the OCA, we're all a bunch of different races and ethnicities!

I have found that in Greek Churches, they are Greek before their Orthodox.

a friend of my mothers is an Agnostic, but she was baptized in the Antiochian Orthodox Church with her family as a teenager. when she moved, she went to a Greek Church (the only Orthodox Church in town) and was asked why she was there, as she obviously isn't Greek.

I made a Greek eminarian friend of mine angry when I told him this, he says it's a common occurance in most Greek Churches he knows of.

I would not paint in such broad strokes. Things seem to be changing so that we should no longer generalize.

I knew a guy with Irish/Chinese parentage. Until he told me so, I had assumed he was Hispanic.

Lol, that's a great post to have on this thread

I'm a substitute teacher and many times when I go into a school kids will debate whether I'm Chinese or Latino. Also, conversations about Jackie Chan are inevitable.

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Quote

“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”