With respect, no they're not. He had them when we got him, as a stray pup with no previous vet care and we didn't vaccinate for a while due to him being so ill.

Vaccinating an immune compromised animal, especially annually, is IMO a very bad idea, whether or not you think he is vaccine damaged, no wonder he has health issues. Just a reminder this is the I'm not vaccinating forum, vaccine debates are off limits.

Oscar is an au naturel doggy, so no HW, flea/tick meds, ever. He did have a handful of fleas a couple of weeks after we got him as a pup, but I got rid of them in a couple of days with garlic water and a flower essence combo for "pests". I have found that an unvaccinated animal is pretty much like an unvaccinated child, they just don't get sick that often, and if they do they bounce back very quickly. Oscar is also raw fed (prey model), which I believe is the appropriate diet for a opportunistic carnivore.

t

"There are only two mistakes you can make in the search for the Truth. Not starting, and not going all the way." ~ Mark Passio

I'm sorry. The question was 'do you vaccinate your pets?'. It's pretty unfair to tell me I'm responsible for my dog's health problems then to tell me I'm not allowed to debate this with you.. I've already explained that he was already ill when I got him. He didn't get worse after his vaccines. He's much, much better thanks to my careful care and the natural diet I feed him (also raw.)

I won't contribute further out of respect for you. I hope you'll do the same and not attack my care of my dog further, who is only alive because of my speedy interventions, my insistence on allergy testing and my adherence to a strict, natural diet for him. And of course the skilled care of the vet who saved his life when he first arrived with us.

So many people are so neglectful and even heartless towards animals in their care.

Mizram and silverring…even if you two disagree on how to care for animals in some regards, it is very clear you both love your animals and take good care of them, which certainly has my respect. My peace-making words for the day (and now you probably both want to cyber-slap me, lol). .

Ok - back to pet vaccines:

Anyone have any ideas on what vaccines are the worst and which ones you might consider in some circumstances?

My default is "none" where vaccines are concerned, but I admit to knowing little about pet vaccines.

Are all rabies vaxxes the same? There is a one year and 3 year version where I live. Is there any difference in safety profile between 1 and 3 yr rabies shots?

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

"I asked Dr. Schultz if the 1 and 3-year rabies vaccine products are the same. His opinion is most of them are. There is also a 1-year feline rabies vaccine that has no adjuvant, but there is not at this time a similar 3-year product…...

With regard to vaccine-associated sarcomas (VAS) in cats, Dr. Schultz believes it's preferable to give the non-adjuvanted 1-year rabies vaccine over the 3-year vaccine containing adjuvants. Whereas the non-adjuvanted 1-year vaccine created no inflammatory response at the injection site (a marker for tumor development), adjuvanted rabies vaccines are known to cause more VAS. So even in genetically predisposed kitties, it is assumed the non-adjuvanted product, even given yearly, is less harmful than the adjuvanted vaccine."

So…really tentatively…..3 years is fine for dogs (versus 1 yr), cats may be better off with a 1 yr non-adjuvanted vax. I am naughtily skipping rabies for my cat (indoor cat) so I am not concerned, but it may help others.

The article below was also useful and re-iterated that non-adjuvanted vaccines for cats (the only one availible at the time of the article (2011) was called purevax )

Interceptor and interceptor like drugs were pulled off the market last July....

You'd have to ask around, I know my vets - holistic and the vet we keep for anything surgical/emergency - both had a pretty good supply and they were due to begin manufacturing again. None of the animal prodcuts were involved in the recall and nothing was pulled, they just shut down the plant that manufactured them because of issues with human drugs and needing to update the facility and so nothing new was able to be shipped out http://www.ah.novartis.us/FAQ/FAQ.htm.

The best way to avoid more than necessary rabies is to not give the first vax unitl they are 1yr. Current protocol is puppies must be over 12 wks, thye get a puppy rabies shot. Then at one year they get a 1yr 'adult' rabies, and the following year, provided you before the 'expiration' date of the last vaccine, they are eligible for the 3yr. If they do not recieve the first vaccine until they are one year, they will be eligible for the 3yr thus giving them only 2 vaccines in a 2 yr span vs 3.

Most inefective would be the lyme, kennel cough, and giardia. Giardia was actually discontinued by the manufacturer in 2009 bc of it's limited effectiveness. Kennel cough or the technical name "Bordatella" is similar to human flu with various strains that change year to year. Lyme is a double edged sword - If you live in a lyme prone area many vets recommend it. It's not a guarantee. BUT, if your dog or cat is bitten by a tick and you test for lyme, a positive result may just be indicative of the presence of lyme from the vaccine and not from exposure. I can''t seem to find any info from pfizer (they acquired the LymeVax from Fort Dodge) but according to the vets I've spoken with, both holistic and conventional, it's not very effective. Personal experience - 2 dogs, vaccinated for lyme, still contracted it; another dog, vaccinated, never seems to test positive for any tick disease yet displays every classsic symptom.

Kathymuggle, it would seem, according to this article it's not the 1 vs the 3 yr that has a different rate of safety, rather it's the brand being used and how it's administered. http://www.2ndchance.info/fibrosarcoma.htm

"5) Veterinarians that see many cases of VAS sometimes begin giving their vaccinations in a lower rear leg. Although the plan is somewhat gruesome they realize that a tumor occurring on the leg would allow the leg to be lost but the cat to be saved."

Talk about being horribly non-proactive! "well it's probably going to cause a tumor so let's inject it on the leg so we can plan for an amputation in a few years!".

I'm just at the VERY beginning of thinking about vaccination and my pets. They've always been fully vaxxed. I probably won't change much with my current pets (2 older dogs,) but if and when I get new pets, I'll dive more deeply into this issue. I primarily use a ND and I found out that there are holistic vets, too. So, similarly, I'll seek out a different vet if problems arise (or if I get a new pet) and I will likely go buy his/her advice. I'm starting to feel the same way about vets as I already feel about medical doctors. . . (My skepticism started when they continued to push Science Diet food on me, at EVERY turn. Yeah, like I'm going to pay that much money for dog food when the first ingredient is CORN.)

One of my dogs actually had a reaction from the rabies vaccine - the site of the injection swelled to the size of half a tennis ball and it was red, hard and painful. It took many days for the swelling to go down. After that, the fur at the injection site fell out - about the size of a half-dollar. Over many months, the hair grew back, but was a much darker color. Only after a few years can you no longer see the spot. Unfortunately, I was forced into getting it again for her, even though I was very reluctant, because I was moving across the country and needed to transport her via the airlines. Current rabies, as well as other vaccines, was required. Thankfully, she had no reaction this last time.

I've been a volunteer for many years working with homeless animals in southern Louisiana, so I've seen a LOT of dogs with heart worm disease. My dog (same one that had the vaccine reaction) is a rescue, and had heart worms when I got her. I don't know of any other way to prevent heart worms than to use ivermectin, (Heartguard brand) though I'd love to hear if anyone knows of anything else that is more natural. I'm living in La. again right now and there are still mosquitos in JANUARY - just killed one today. When I was living in Oregon, I just treated my dogs in the summer, and not even then if I didn't see any mosquitos. Now that I'm down here, I have to treat again. That is actually another thing that bugs me about vets. They won't sell you the heart worm preventative unless you get a heart worm test, which is totally silly because you TREAT heart worms with the exact same medication that is the preventative. So, I use ivermectin to prevent heartworms. I would use ivermectin to treat them if she had them - which is how I cured it the first time. (I think there is, or was, another drug for heart worm prevention that would be deadly if there were actual heart worms, but that isn't what is widely used now.) So, anyway, this rule just discourages people from giving their pet heart worm preventative, b/c you have to pay for a vet visit, a test, and the preventative - three costly expenses that for many puts it out of reach. This was always a big beef with the rescue organization I worked with . . .We always felt like this rule did more harm than good.

Schultz, professor and chair of pathobiological sciences at School of Veterinary Medicine, has been studying the effectiveness of canine vaccines since the 1970s; he's learned that immunity can last as long as a dog's lifetime, which suggests that our "best friends" are being over-vaccinated.

Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

I'm just at the VERY beginning of thinking about vaccination and my pets. They've always been fully vaxxed. I probably won't change much with my current pets (2 older dogs,) but if and when I get new pets, I'll dive more deeply into this issue. I primarily use a ND and I found out that there are holistic vets, too. So, similarly, I'll seek out a different vet if problems arise (or if I get a new pet) and I will likely go buy his/her advice. I'm starting to feel the same way about vets as I already feel about medical doctors. . . (My skepticism started when they continued to push Science Diet food on me, at EVERY turn. Yeah, like I'm going to pay that much money for dog food when the first ingredient is CORN.)

One of my dogs actually had a reaction from the rabies vaccine - the site of the injection swelled to the size of half a tennis ball and it was red, hard and painful. It took many days for the swelling to go down. After that, the fur at the injection site fell out - about the size of a half-dollar. Over many months, the hair grew back, but was a much darker color. Only after a few years can you no longer see the spot. Unfortunately, I was forced into getting it again for her, even though I was very reluctant, because I was moving across the country and needed to transport her via the airlines. Current rabies, as well as other vaccines, was required. Thankfully, she had no reaction this last time.

I've been a volunteer for many years working with homeless animals in southern Louisiana, so I've seen a LOT of dogs with heart worm disease. My dog (same one that had the vaccine reaction) is a rescue, and had heart worms when I got her. I don't know of any other way to prevent heart worms than to use ivermectin, (Heartguard brand) though I'd love to hear if anyone knows of anything else that is more natural. I'm living in La. again right now and there are still mosquitos in JANUARY - just killed one today. When I was living in Oregon, I just treated my dogs in the summer, and not even then if I didn't see any mosquitos. Now that I'm down here, I have to treat again. That is actually another thing that bugs me about vets. They won't sell you the heart worm preventative unless you get a heart worm test, which is totally silly because you TREAT heart worms with the exact same medication that is the preventative. So, I use ivermectin to prevent heartworms. I would use ivermectin to treat them if she had them - which is how I cured it the first time. (I think there is, or was, another drug for heart worm prevention that would be deadly if there were actual heart worms, but that isn't what is widely used now.) So, anyway, this rule just discourages people from giving their pet heart worm preventative, b/c you have to pay for a vet visit, a test, and the preventative - three costly expenses that for many puts it out of reach. This was always a big beef with the rescue organization I worked with . . .We always felt like this rule did more harm than good.

Typical treatment for heartworm, provided the dog is healthy enough to handle it, is actually with Immiticide injections which does contain arsenic. It causes a rapid die-off of the worms which can be lethal if they cause a blockage thus vets recommend keeping dogs crated and leashed for potty so they don't run and move blood too quickly. The thing is, even "preventatives" don't prevent heartworm - things like heartguard, interceptor, sentinel, and even herbal remedies all work to kill active infestations. The difference being that a dog on a preventative, be it herbal or pharmaceutical, won't have a massive infestation of worms that is more dangerous to treat. Yes you can treat it with the 'preventatives', it's just a longer treatment, ie 2 yrs for a bad case vs 6wks on the injections. I did rescue here in CT and the majority of our dogs came on transports from the south and quite a few were HW+. For younger, healthy dogs, the vet always chose the injections bc they could be adopted out quicker and save them money. Only a handful of times did he go with the ivermectin for dogs who had other health problems that weren't so bad they needed to be euth, but it was better to let them go with the slow kill off.

Typical treatment for heartworm, provided the dog is healthy enough to handle it, is actually with Immiticide injections which does contain arsenic. It causes a rapid die-off of the worms which can be lethal if they cause a blockage thus vets recommend keeping dogs crated and leashed for potty so they don't run and move blood too quickly. The thing is, even "preventatives" don't prevent heartworm - things like heartguard, interceptor, sentinel, and even herbal remedies all work to kill active infestations. The difference being that a dog on a preventative, be it herbal or pharmaceutical, won't have a massive infestation of worms that is more dangerous to treat. Yes you can treat it with the 'preventatives', it's just a longer treatment, ie 2 yrs for a bad case vs 6wks on the injections. I did rescue here in CT and the majority of our dogs came on transports from the south and quite a few were HW+. For younger, healthy dogs, the vet always chose the injections bc they could be adopted out quicker and save them money. Only a handful of times did he go with the ivermectin for dogs who had other health problems that weren't so bad they needed to be euth, but it was better to let them go with the slow kill off.

I didn't realize that the short-term treatment was immiticide, I thought it was just a larger dose of ivermectin. . . Also didn't know about the arsenic, but back then I wouldn't have known to think about that sort of thing. Thanks for the info. I chose the long-term ivermectin route with my dog b/c at the time, our living situation was very hectic (it was just post-Katrina and we'd lost our home and moved around A LOT) and she was a young dog, active dog and there is no way she would've handled confinement very well. I also felt the longer-term treatment was safer. Since she was young, I made the assumption that it wasn't a terrible infestation, so a slow-kill off wouldn't put her heart at too much risk of continued damage from the worms. Two years after we started the treatment, we tested her (for heart worms, not just the microfilore (sp?) and she was negative. 7.5 years later. . .she is a healthy, happy dog.

In my state, we are not required to vaccinate our cats, but we are our dogs. I don't vaccinate my cat at all. (I don't have a dog). I go to my vet, who is holistic, she does acupuncture, herbal, homeopathic, nutrition, etc. She's absolutely the best. I took my cat to see her last time, she was miserable, with history of sinus issues, and she recently had rodent virus which made her lips all funky looking. My vet took one look at her, and stated, Stop feeding her chicken, and my cat healed within a couple of weeks. We primarily feed her dry turkey, and rabbit. She had a book about the dangers of vaccinating animals, and I don't recall the name of it. She recommends the minimum vaccines. I also know someone whose dogs died after they received vaccines. I'm not sure about their health prior to the vaccines.

I know this threat is a little old, but I felt it important I share my story.

We adopted a 1 year old Labradoodle from a shelter in 2011. He had gotten "caught up" on his vaccines at the shelter. Within two days of bringing him home, we realized he was sick. Runny nose, lethargy, and he would not eat. They told us it was probably a form of kennel cough, gave us some meds, insisted on a Bordetella shot, and sent us home. He got MUCH sicker. He would not eat, started to wheeze, still would not eat, and stopped walking. We picked up fluids, and shots, and more meds from the vet and treated him at home. Round the clock fluids. We tried everything to get him to eat. He didn't eat for 6 days. He lost 10 lbs. We honestly thought he was going to die. But one day, he started to eat. And things got better from there.

A year later, he needed to be updated on his shots to attend a dog training class and doggy daycare. I tried talking my way around, explaining that I would get titres, etc. They wouldn't accept that. So, he went to the vet and got his shots. Within two days, He was sick all over again. Runny nose, drooling. He wasn't eating or drinking. We noticed he couldn't even open his jaw. We rushed him to the vet. He was diagnosed with a disease called Masculatory Muscle Myosytis (sp?) or MMM due to a vaccine reaction. He couldn't open his jaw for a week. He was a large dose of steroids for 6 months. Developed SERIOUS allergies. He chewed his body bloody and raw. No amount of clothing or a cone, nothing stopped him. Almost his entire body is covered in saliva stain and his skin is thick and his hair is thin. Hes fed top quality food that busts our budget, gets weekly medicated baths just to manage the allergy to the best of our ability.

Now, he cant even be around another dog thats recently recieved their Bordetella vaccine without getting a runny nose. Vaccines nearly killed my dog twice. Another one of my dogs received annual vaccines until she developed cancer. A year fighting the cancer and it kept coming back. I stopped vaccinated and changed her food, and the cancer stayed away for years. It took my some time to realize how lucky I am that my dogs lived, since many dogs do not.

None of my dogs have received vaccines since, and I plan on it staying that way.

They told us it was probably a form of kennel cough, gave us some meds, insisted on a Bordetella shot, and sent us home.

That was pretty much what our first vet told us - after he started the 5way vax series all over again at 8wks after they'd already had 2 AND did the bordatella....we did the emergency room 2x after that for one of the pups, not pretty at all. As for the dog training, I've never heard of anyone being that picky about proof especially since the only one legally required is rabies, the rest are really just extras! I've always gotten away with just rabies proof and checking of 'yes' for others. And actually, I don't do rabies anymore on my old girl bc of the lingering issues from puppyhood and a tickborne disease she contracted shortly after all of that. Maybe it's because they know me and I was an assistant instructor there for a while, but they never ask for her updated papers.

Oscar did a puppy class, and the trainer was fine with him attending as long as he was "healthy". She actually said, that as the other puppies were vaccinated, then there was no need to worry about them getting anything from my dog! The Humane Society, however, refused to allow him to partipate in a group class, but was okay with an individual session.

t

"There are only two mistakes you can make in the search for the Truth. Not starting, and not going all the way." ~ Mark Passio

I do puppy vaccines, but I really space them out. My dogs are over a year when they are done. Other than that, it's rabies b/c it's required to get a dog liscense, and I will occasionally titer if there is an outbreak of something in the area. I will amend this to say that my dogs are VERY active in that they go everywhere. We show and we raise puppies for Leader Dog for the Blind. The only reaction I've ever had in a dog was one with an autoimmune disease that started to react to a rabies vac. Benedryl stopped it in it's tracks and since the reaction started right away, our vet just gave injectable Benedryl. After that, that particular dog had a vet release form stating that he was no longer able to tolerate the rabies vac and they wouldn't adminster it. My general feeling is that I don't do my kids, so I don't do my dogs beyond what is required. I do puppy shots mainly b/c puppies get sick and die VERY quickly. Parvo, distemper, etc., are ugly to deal with and are horribly expensive to treat. I've never had a dog who's titer showed that they were no longer immune. Feed them right, make sure they are a good body weight, flea free, and get lots of exercise and you should be good.

Just to play a little "devil's advocate" here, pet owners need to remember the ramifications of not vaccinating -- there's more to it than your pet's health. I know you all love your pets very much. I love mine too. I also love the people around me and having a roof over my head. If you don't vaccinate your dog for rabies per the law, and he/she bites someone, not only is that person going to have to undergo treatment for rabies, but you can get sued. And your insurance company may not have your back.

I understand not vaccinating. My Shih Tzu does not respond well to medications or vaccines. She gets terrible diarrhea for days. But I have children and they have friends, and dogs and children are unpredictable. My oldest child was bit in the face by a dog we knew when she was two. That was traumatic enough. I'm very glad we did not have to go through rabies treatments as well.

I started investigating vaccination of pets in September 2008, after my eight year old dog Sasha became very ill after she was needlessly revaccinated with modified live virus (MLV) and killed vaccines. (She was subsequently put down.)

Researching the topic after my dog's death I discovered she was likely already immune to the serious canine diseases parvovirus, distemper virus and adenovirus due to previous vaccination, and so underwent potentially harmful revaccination for no benefit. I was not given the opportunity to verify a response to MLV vaccination with a titre test, as many veterinarians prefer to arbitrarily revaccinate every year (and more recently every three years) with these vaccines (an income generator). My dog was also unlikely to benefit from the killed vaccine administered for Bordetella bronchiseptica, which is a vaccine of very questionable value.

Along with my colleague Bea Mies and others, I've been campaigning for effective, evidence-based vaccination practice for dogs. As a consequence of our campaigning in Australia, reduced vaccination protocols are starting to be (very slowly...) implemented. Vaccine product labels are also being changed. However, it has been a very long road to hoe, faced with resistance all along the way, and shocking to discover the way pet owners have been blatantly misled by the vaccine industry.

It does seem like there is a tiny bit less resistance to looking at vax issues among vets than there is to looking at vax issues among the powers that be in human vaccines. I wonder why that it.

Because they are animals and not humans. This is not to say people don't love their pets, but in our society, the life of an animal does not hold as much value as the life of a human being. Because there are no mandatory laws (asides from rabies in some states) that tell you you MUST get these vaccines or there will be legal consequences (no school ect). and mostly because there is far less at stake in admitting that vaccines can cause harm (a lot less politics)

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Because they are animals and not humans. This is not to say people don't love their pets, but in our society, the life of an animal does not hold as much value as the life of a human being. Because there are no mandatory laws (asides from rabies in some states) that tell you you MUST get these vaccines or there will be legal consequences (no school ect). and mostly because there is far less at stake in admitting that vaccines can cause harm (a lot less politics)

Bolding mine.

I have trouble wrapping my head around this, even though I think you are right.

I do not vaccinate because I question a lot of the science behind doing so. So as someone who would like to see society moving more towards a critical analysis of vaccination, it is odd to me that it is happening first in pets.

I guess the default in society is vaccination, though (blech) so it makes sense they would experiment with being more critical in pets first.

I think it is a little ass-backwards that pharmaceuticals are seen as the default.

Italics mine. I totally agree.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

While some vets are becoming more open to 'less' vaccines and longer duration between boosters, the AVMA has now taken a new stance against raw feeding saying they do not recommend it and claiming there are no proven health benefits. So it's one step forward, two steps back!