I just started lvling WHM so I can sub for BST later and I had multiple, harrowing encounters in the Highlands area and I just wanted to share my experiences.

so I was lvl 12 with /BLM and fighting a DC Mist Lizard when the ML was about 2/3 dead another DC ML spawned right on top of us and linked. I panicked but didn't run. the first one falls to DIA damage and I start attacking the second DC ML. I have refresh from Fields of Valor but my MP is still draining away and my HP is about 1/2. about half way through the second ML fight a third DC ML rounds a corner and links again! they start doing a few crits and I use BENE. eventually I killed both and I had 10 HP left and 2 MP with refresh still active. Heart was pounding on that one.

3 DC mist lizards with overlapping linkage and I survived as a WHM.

later the same thing happened again with two DC mist lizards and this time they used Stonegaze and I still survived!

then that same night while fighting a DC Quad (Amethyst I think) I got linked by an EM Quad at the end (Onyx I believe). normally I would not even try an EM at full HP/MP with any Job at lvl 14 (by this time) but I had no choice. the fight was long, I used my 2hour again (it was a long night) and I was near death, but, good ole DIA saved the day and I survived a DC + EM battle as a WHM/BLM. The darn thing even used Cure II at one point!

I should have died 3 times that night, but, I survived all encounters. either I am one lucky Star Onion Brigade member or WHM is not as squishy as I thought it would be.

I don't know where people get the idea that WHM is a squishy job. My WHM is a Club-wielding gung-ho mage ready to kick *** and cure stuff, and it's all out of cures.

<.<

But seriously, WHM's are hard to take down. We have a lot of defensive traits (including moderate HP) and access to a lot of defensive gear and spells. I've had the attention of a multitude of HNM's with nothing but my guts and stoneskin and lived more times that I can count.

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It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few. - Pythagoras

Mages in general are much tougher than people assume. Since they don't have to do anything while idle as opposed to melees, they can sit in PDT/MDT-% gear. I have on Physical damage taken-30% in my idle gear on all my mage jobs (-35% at night). Combine that with blink/stoneskin/phalanx(?)/shell4/shell5/pro4/pro5/etc. and you can take quite a beating.

****, Tuesday I tanked Cynoprosopi in NW apollyon for 30 seconds on BLM/RDM as a Tarutaru with sorc ring latent activated (so only <600 HP at 75) and I never died the whole fight. On the other hand, someone who doesn't know what they're doing can be just as squishy as the rumor would claim. An elvaan BLM in the same party ended up dying from hurricane wing.

I remember partying somewhere in Garliage basement long time ago, at the level that you could use the Holy Breastplate but before Earth Staff. It was probably my first real "Iddle/Ouch" piece I had.

I still believe that this piece was what allowed me to survive a horrible link on that party where I bene'd and had an IT bettle and a bat whacking at me while the BLM desperately manafont-cure spammed me.

So now I always carry it with me when I go to Riverne site (*'-')

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It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few. - Pythagoras

WHM is one of the tougher jobs out there, to be honest. The main thing that stops me from leveling it is that I already have two jobs that can main heal (RDM and SCH), so I'd rather level up DDs or Tanks to experience a different side of the game.

Make no mistake, if you know what you're doing, WHM (especially WHM/NIN or WHM/RDM, depending on mob) is a powerhouse at survival.

Third highest shield skill cap in the game and Genbu's buckler shield of awesomeness and physical damage -10%, also agrees with Whitemage's durability. Shield is something alot of people seem to take for granted (except Pld of course) but even without A+ skill it can still be a valuable defensive skill.

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Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda) Tarutaru Male from Windurst Favorite Job: White Mage Jobs currently at Level 99: ALL the Jobs!!!

I'm well aware of that fact, thank you. However that only means that it's not going to be the best option when fighting enemies of substanical level, which in my experience is tough or higher, at which point the shield procs (at least with Genbu's Shield) become unreliable. But if your skeptical, by all means try it for yourself; just pick up a buckler type shield, sub rdm if you can, and find some chigoes. Chigoes will take you far, almost to 200, but the last few lvls you'll have to figure out somewhere else (I did steelshells with high -interruption at the waterfall, not fun but totally worth it).

Whm's shield skill does suit it more to enemies of decent challenge and lower the majority of the time, but even having a lucky shield block on a high level enemy can save your life from time to time (Happened to me once when I blocked Kirin's Deadly Hold and somehow lived).

I mainly use the Muse shield for Cures nowadays, but I always stow my Genbu's in my Satchel for whenever I need to take out my club and put the wrath of Altana into a monster.

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Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda) Tarutaru Male from Windurst Favorite Job: White Mage Jobs currently at Level 99: ALL the Jobs!!!

at which point the shield procs (at least with Genbu's Shield) become unreliable.

When shield blocks become unreliable with a Size 1, you should ignore block rate and focus on everything else the shield gives you. Given the Genbu example, you'd equip that for the DEF:24 and PDT-10%, rather than for the Size 1 block rate.

That's not to say Genbu's Shield isn't your best option for straight tanking, because it's plain to see it is, but the block rate's a bit meaningless unless for some reason (maybe you have PLD) you have shield merits and a fair bit of Shield Skill gear; in this instance, this'll mean Boxer's Mantle (means foregoing a PDT-% cape, though), Shield Torque and Buckler Earring (and plausibly Shield Belt if you're /PLD for some reason, though personally I'd rather /RDM for indefinitely maintainable Phalanx, and plausibly Enspells). In such an instance you're still limited to stuff that's lower-level than you are if you want a block rate approaching meaningful, and I'd rather put my faith in Genbu's PDT-10% than its block rate.

Ummm actually, it's very hard to get a low block % with Genbu's to begin with. Size 1's should automatically cap you at 60% against pretty much anything you'd want to fight.

I haven't found a single mob I'd straight tank that yields me less than 40~60% shield block.

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It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few. - Pythagoras

So Genbu's shield will block 34% damage per block. Assuming you have a capped 65% block rate: It would equal to -22.1% damage taken over time, or 32.1% when you add the other -PDT.

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It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few. - Pythagoras

So Genbu's shield will block 34% damage per block. Assuming you have a capped 65% block rate: It would equal to -22.1% damage taken over time, or 32.1% when you add the other -PDT.

You'd need to multiply damage totals here, rather than add different reduction rates (because PDT-% is something different to shield-block damage absorption). Using the 22.1% you provide, that gives us 77.9% damage taken (out of 100%). The shield itself has got PDT-10% on it, so we need to multiply that 77.9 by 90% (since 100 - 10 = 90).

That puts us at 70.11% damage taken, for a total of 29.89% damage reduction (probably truncated to 29.8% knowing SE).

Keep in mind I'm not saying anything's good or bad here, I'm just correcting the numbers.

I specifically said Damage Taken over time; to avoid creeping into the mathematical details territory. There's an obvious difference and relationship between -PDT and shield block reductions.

If you want to be more accurate, the damage reduction would be a function of how much -PDT you had before (Or after?) the block is calculated. I'm not even sure if the effect is multiplicative or additive (Altho I suspect it's multiplicative).

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It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few. - Pythagoras

I have a question now that shield proc rate is coming into play...earth staff of genbu for taking less dmg? Assuming you're always facing the mob in question to be able to shield block

Genbu by a long shot, because you're going to kill faster with a club, and if you kill something it can't damage you anymore. More base damage, (slightly) lower delay, higher skill, better WS (Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon). Whatever shield blocks you do get will probably make up for the PDT-% you lose.

Drakonite wrote:

I specifically said Damage Taken over time; to avoid creeping into the mathematical details territory. There's an obvious difference and relationship between -PDT and shield block reductions.

When shield blocks become unreliable with a Size 1, you should ignore block rate and focus on everything else the shield gives you. Given the Genbu example, you'd equip that for the DEF:24 and PDT-10%, rather than for the Size 1 block rate.

Well I certainly wasn't implying that Genbu's shield is only useful for its high shield block rate. Naturally other buckler shields have the same shield block, but none are near as powerful in stats as Genbu's. I was merely using it as an example because it's the shield I always use, for the many reasons you pointed out.

I just wished to point out how benefical having a shield equipped is to any Whm who find themself tanking a decently strong enemy. I mean no offense to you, Lucinus, but I had to clarify the uses of Shield even at a D rank skill.

Higher skill is perferred above lower skill, no doubt, but people shouldn't discount any skill or capablity of their job if they wish to be considered a skillful player.

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I have a question now that shield proc rate is coming into play...earth staff of genbu for taking less dmg? Assuming you're always facing the mob in question to be able to shield block

Club/Shield easily, the benefit of 26 higher club skill and Whm's two badass weaponskills for damage and longevity (Hexa and Boon), will benefit you far more than an Earth Staff, even with its -20% physical damage taken. If you want to go even farther with it, consider other damage reduction gear; chaviot cape (-5% daytime, -10% at night), jelly ring (-5%), patronus ring (-2% normal, -10% in campaign) and goliard trews (-3%). Totalled all these items (and genbu's shield) ammount to -25% daytime -30% at night, or -38% at night and in campagin.

I've even got a Darksteel set (total -8% phy dmg down) for my bard, which adds to the earth staff, rings, and cape for a total of -40/45% which nearly hits the cap. (Bard, of course, is a different story altogether.)

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 11:29pm by Teiei

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Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda) Tarutaru Male from Windurst Favorite Job: White Mage Jobs currently at Level 99: ALL the Jobs!!!

Higher skill is perferred above lower skill, no doubt, but people shouldn't discount any skill or capablity of their job if they wish to be considered a skillful player.

Not always. On certain jobs that have Evasion, particularly those who have it below a B- rating, it's not especially useful as you'll be below the Evasion floor on anything worth evading (and even for the B ranks it's challenging). Guard is also laughable; just ask the MNK forum. Similarly, a lot of jobs seem to have skill ratings for weapon classes that are rarely used either due to their total irrelevance or due to better options being available -- as an example you guys have a E in Throwing, but are you really going to do anything meaningful with a stack of Astragaloi? As an even better example, BRD is in the same boat.

On the other end of the scale, just because pretty much any job *can* kite a NM, or sub /NIN and tank for a bit, doesn't mean they'll necessarily do a very good job of it. I'd get out the ********** is situational" card but realistically it helps and hinders both of our arguments.

I'd get out the "sh*t is situational" card but realistically it helps and hinders both of our arguments.

Just what is your argument anyways? First you discount shield on account of low skill, then you suddenly decide it to be better than Earth Staff. I don't understand what you wish to prove other than arguing any suggestions I have just because you have some evidence against it. If that's all your doing then, hey "sh*t is situational," so I can also pull rebuttals out of my *** (pardon the pun) all day to your claims, but as you said, it doesn't benefit either of us.

I realize as well as anyone that certain things are better than others, but your reasons for attacking me, just for suggesting that people be prepared for alternative situations, does not benefit your arugment (whatever it is)in any way.

This thread is becoming far too derailed.

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Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda) Tarutaru Male from Windurst Favorite Job: White Mage Jobs currently at Level 99: ALL the Jobs!!!

That the reason Genbu's Shield is so awesome for you guys is because of the PDT-10% (in which case you agreed with me), and that the block rate is very much a secondary concern, if indeed it's anything more than an added bonus. Honestly, you'd probably still use it if it were a Size 4.

So I guess if you want to drag it back on topic, my point becomes "durability on WHM can be considered to stem primarily from straight damage reduction rather than from other sources, assuming no spell usage for some strange reason". If we add stuff like Utsusemi or even Stoneskin then it becomes a different ball game entirely.

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First you discount shield on account of low skill

I discounted the block rate on account of low skill, then I retracted it, and now am just treating it as something minor. The PDT-10% on the other hand doesn't depend on block rate.

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then you suddenly decide it to be better than Earth Staff.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the whole point here was for when you're in melee, in which case you'll also be dealing damage. If you're using the slower and (by FAR) weaker weapon for that purpose, then something's amiss. ****, you even agreed with me there. If however you're in such a situation where dealing melee damage is impractical, or you need to kite for some reason, then it's glaringly obvious that Earth Staff will be superior.

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I realize as well as anyone that certain things are better than others, but your reasons for attacking me, just for suggesting that people be prepared for alternative situations, does not benefit your arugment (whatever it is)in any way.

I apologise if you take the bluntness of my observations as attacking you, and I assure you that's not the case. I just don't like dressing up information for the purpose of sweetening the proverbial pill.

WHM if you know what you are doing is insanely durable, you don't need mental amounts of gear, just good skills, genbu shield and capped shield is a huge help, i've had it block on wyrms at some crucial points.

I've tanked Ouryu when both our tanks went down...he was angry that day, just throwing bad combos and crits at us. Whilst the BLMs decided to still nuke it....bad enough keeping hate off BLMs, let alone doing it on whm with more -enmity than them!!!

It's a fun job though, it does shock alot of people, somewhat with WHM though, it doesn't have the best dmg output, but it has staying power, and that's what counts if you can outlast whatever you are fighting.

I've happily kited stuff, Kirin for example when tanks have gone down in a zerg.... drop a curaga IV and beleive me, you'll get Kirin's attention!! COP missions i've kited, it's pretty nuts, but there is soo much potential if you have open minded people and are willing to give you a shot.

We also have the 3rd highest shield skill in the game, PLD (obviously!!) > WAR > WHM > BST > RDM > THF or something like that.

Now with trial of the Magi, we can get a club with base damage that matches Relic!

With power like that, Mystic boon is going to become even more valuable for the soloist Whm /drool.

We also finally get a backpiece worth using for melee! SE made the Odin and Alexander items so desireable that everyone is going to be after him for awhile, even if they're not summoners (as SMN can only use their pact at 75, making it rather pointless to get if your SMN is not).

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Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda) Tarutaru Male from Windurst Favorite Job: White Mage Jobs currently at Level 99: ALL the Jobs!!!

Now with trial of the Magi, we can get a club with base damage that matches Relic!

With power like that, Mystic boon is going to become even more valuable for the soloist Whm /drool.

We also finally get a backpiece worth using for melee! SE made the Odin and Alexander items so desireable that everyone is going to be after him for awhile, even if they're not summoners (as SMN can only use their pact at 75, making it rather pointless to get if your SMN is not).

My money is more on the multi-hit club w/ high damage. Especially when coupled with mystic boon, if you have multi-hit you will be rolling in MP restoration. Respectable damage ratings mean extremely high DPS weapon for hexa strike as well.

My money is more on the multi-hit club w/ high damage. Especially when coupled with mystic boon, if you have multi-hit you will be rolling in MP restoration. Respectable damage ratings mean extremely high DPS weapon for hexa strike as well.

It remainds to be seen as to the strength of their double attack rate. I'm not about to commit to that path considering how hard it will be to even access tier III VNMs, **** the tier I won't even change your abyssea until you've killed em about 20 times (or 200, from what I've heard -_-).

In any case, right now my priority for Magi trials is going to be on the Cure potency staff.

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Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda) Tarutaru Male from Windurst Favorite Job: White Mage Jobs currently at Level 99: ALL the Jobs!!!