I have a NC Sundance and NC Mummy Bright Bouquet. I have a box for Nirvanas and a box for European/UK exclusives. Where should I put these two girls? Also, is yellow Moondancer (HK version) a Nirvana or is she a Euro exclusive? Sorry for my ignorance and thanks in advance to any kind souls who can set me straight

I would personally dispute Sundance NC and the family ponies NC as being Nirvana. I don't think they're any different than the Thai fancy pants babies. They're a manufacturing variation in a particular locale, but they're not like other Nirvana ponies who are made under licence. In Sundance's case, she's not only normal release in the UK, I am pretty sure her box doesn't even mention the fact she's not HK.

I think they are more European/UK variations. Not Nirvana.

And the Thai Mountain Boys are Nirvana, but the fancy pants babies are not. The difference is how mainstream their release is. Since the Sundance and Mummy Pony thing is a pan-European thing, I would say we can draw the same comparison.

I guess Ladybird probably fits both categories, as she's made in Greece but also only sold in Greece and ther'es no global equivalent. But although I forget the company, she's made under licence from Hasbro by that company, making her probably more Nirvana. Otherwise I think that's how I think of the term as well.

The problem really comes from the fact that when the variant thing happened it was all over the place and we didn't really know what to do with these ponies since most of the other ponies, like Nachtlicht and such were also just starting to pop up. So lines got blurred.

For me a pony made under licence from Hasbro in another palce is a Nirvana. A pony made in another place as an alternate to mainstream is a Nirvana.A pony made in another place that is mainstream is dubious as a Nirvana for me. But I get that it's really hard to distinguish, because someone in Spain might say "but Spanish Trickles was normal here", and I can't dispute that. Or in the Netherlands, where Italy Bubbles is maybe more common than the regular one.

For me the real difference is because in the case of Sundance and the Mummy and Daddy Ponies, they even got to the UK and there's no special packaging or information involved to say they are made in Spain or anywhere other than Hong Kong or China. The packaging says HK or China, even when it isn't the case. The UK have no other Nirvana releases except the weird variant princesses etc at the end of the line. But our version of Sundance is pretty much always NC. That makes her as mainstream here as the Thai fancy pants in the US, as there is no official version made in HK in the UK, although I think Sundance's box says HK. It's at home so I can't check, but I think that's correct.

Sorry PKW I'm muddying the waters. But originally what was and what wasn't a variant was pretty muddy anyway. I just think that if those ponies are Nirvana, so are the Thai fancy pants, as the real rule of thumb is not being made in China or Hong Kong.

Edit: Dug out the images of my Sundance box and it says Made in China. And because of that, we genuinely have no way of proving that isn't the case, although there is no China print on her hooves.

No need to be sorry Taffeta it is a grey area and your points all make sense Nirvana's isn't a one size fits all and the more we try and narrow things down the harder it becomes.

I have always seen Sundance as a bit of both Nirvana and regional release. The family ponies are more confusing for me since they got HK, China and NC marks as well as everything in between. So I personally consider the NC versions to be *more* Nirvana. I admit I don't have as much knowledge on standard releases and issues as a regular collector since I almost exclusively deal with nirvana ponies.

The Thai boys threw a spanner in the works didn't they? I'd be more inclined to think they were *less* Nirvana and *more* regional exclusive, but we know nothing of them Also why are the Thai UK/Euro Mountain Boys and yet US Thai Fancy Pants??? (because it is Hasbro I guess?)

As for what it says on the box, it can't always be trusted, those Mexican Baby Speaponies say "made in Mexico" on the box and they are imports, which brings me to this Chimera......

It really shouldn;t surprise me that that box set exists, to be honest...after all, there are numerous weird packaging things and releases that happened. The trouble with NC ponies is that they can be hidden away inside normal releases of lots of sets. Things like Windy Wings, and Starlight Babies, and Pocket Friends/Precious Pockets. There are also the Baby Cuddles buggy sets which say on the box (in the UK) that the baby is made in Spain but no examples have ever been found to corroborate this - all have come marked Hong Kong.

I have some residual doubts, I have to admit, about whether we should automatically assume NC is Spanish and that all NC ponies were made in Spain. I think we know a lot that are, and then there are others which ask questions, like Sundance. Why not say she's made in Spain if she's made in Spain? Why say she's made in China when all the ones sold in the US are made in Hong Kong? Why do that in a time when ponies are hardly ever made in China anyway (flutters but nothing else I think)? I am sure there's a lot more going on.

But for me Sundance was produced for the mainstream European and UK market without exception. She's not a Nirvana pony in the sense of the other Spanish or NC ponies we talk about, like the TAFs or the Rainbow Ponies or stuff like that.

I work much more with regional release stuff in the mainstream rather than the variants these days, so I'm coming at it from a different angle. I think there's a lot more to be done in that area which people skip over because Nirvana is more shiny and exciting but that's also why we create grey areas. Not that I can offer you any explanation for the Thai question except the one you offered . I think the Thai fancy pants babies were probably an experimentation but one Hasbro chose not to go with. But it's problematic to me that we have four fancy pants babies in existence made in China, which is mainstream production, and yet they are seen as the variants, not the Thai babies, because they're not American. And I feel like Sundance gets the same treatment, because of the way in which stuff in Europe is generally seen as more variant-y than stuff in America. I really think these categories are more nuanced and varied than that. If the NC Sundance had come out universally in the US, we wouldn't see her that way. So for me it makes no sense to see her as Nirvana at all.

You know, G4 pony stuff can be made in China but also Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. We don't see those as Nirvana because they're mainstream and global and what's available. I realise we're not talking about G4, but it's an interesting observation nonetheless.

Yes, I remember the box that said made in Spain, but came with HK baby Cuddles.

Based on what some Spanish collectors have said, the NC ponies where made for export.

I’ve felt iffy about some NC ponies for a while, for reasons I can’t always put my finger on.

Some, such as the Family ponies have the true Spanish look too them, where as others look just like a regular pony only with the stamp removed. No Spanish eyes and no other features that would indicate they were Spanish made other than the lack of a hoof mark.

This has always perplexed me.

Another thing worth noting, IF I remember rightly, is the Baby Seaponies never got a country stamp and are therefore for NC

Don’t forget the first set Princess are made in China which brings me to Princess Sundance, we did discuss her at PonyCon and now *perhaps* is the time to perhaps suggest that NC Sundance wasn’t made in Spain, but rather China and the run for the Euro market got an NC mark.

There was a time when Hasbro switched around a lot. It could be Hasbro were trying China out before switching from Hong Kong and so the NC stamp was born along with some Thai ponies.

I’ve not looked at the time line, but 1987 appears to be the switch over year from Hong Kong to China.

There are some Indian G4’s as well! I do remember that been brought up and the question being asked as to why they aren’t considered Nirvana and it’s due to the nirvana term only being applied to G1 over anything else.

I don't think that's controversial, but you won't be surprised to hear that. I think the current status quo more controversial.

I agree on Sundance. I don't think I have ever thought of her as Spanish. We do have Spain on playset boxes here, and even the UK in one case (green waterfall), but aside that Baby Buggy anomaly, it's not usually the pony. I don't really understand why the UK box for Sundance would say China if the pony was made in Spain. There's no reason to do that that makes sense.

I know there are NC ponies on French card for the early ponies. Are there NC ponies on Spanish card for the same time frame (Rainbow Ponies and the like?) I ask because there has to be some reason we connected NC to Spain, and that's the most obvious - NC ponies on cards marked made in Spain.

A lot of Nirvana ponies are technically NC though. Greek ponies, for one. And your point about the baby sea ponies I think holds water too.

Problem is people don't pay enough attention to the mainstream variations, and we don't know enough about a lot of places and their pony releases, which is where these problems come from. :/

The changeover...it's really muddy. Mostly the UK switches over by about 1989, but there are still odd ponies, like there are Starlight Babies, made in HK. The US is even more patchy. It's like they have multiple factories producing ponies in different locations for different places. I rather wonder if some of the NC ponies in that mix come from one or other of those families.

Princess Sundance is a whole other question mark. I have an open mind about her but no real theories relating to her origins.

Did anyone ever do comparisons between any of these ponies and Thai ponies? Just a thought.

I didn't think my thought would shock you, but I am sure others might see it as controversial since it is such a long held belief.

I think we are thinking in parallel since I am thinking of the features and you are thinking of the timelines and releases, that is what you are so good at

The ponies I am iffy about being truly Spain made are: Sundance, Sundea Best ponies, Precious Pocket Ponies, Starlight Babies and the wingers. The reason why I am iffy about them is that, IMHO, they lack the Spanish features, such as the eyes, body texture, hair colour and texture. The only thing that "makes" them Spanish is the lack of a country stamp.

I know there are NC ponies on French card for the early ponies. Are there NC ponies on Spanish card for the same time frame (Rainbow Ponies and the like?) I ask because there has to be some reason we connected NC to Spain, and that's the most obvious - NC ponies on cards marked made in Spain.

I don't think I have seen those? (NC ponies on French cards) At least they are not in the gallery, so I may have seen them else where, but since my brain can only hold so much information I just don't recall seeing them

All the Rainbows in the gallery are on Spain cards and at the bottom it says "made in Valencia Spain" as there are images of the backcards too.

The changeover...it's really muddy. Mostly the UK switches over by about 1989, but there are still odd ponies, like there are Starlight Babies, made in HK. The US is even more patchy. It's like they have multiple factories producing ponies in different locations for different places. I rather wonder if some of the NC ponies in that mix come from one or other of those families.

This! I was thinking about those little babies and the number of variations of variations you can get. I recall your little collection of Baby Mischiefs!

Princess Sundance is a whole other question mark. I have an open mind about her but no real theories relating to her origins.

I mentioned Princess Sundance, because you, LadyG and myself all thought it daft for them to ship a bundle of Sundance "remains" from Spain to China, to put Princess Pearl's heads on, to ship them back to the UK for sale as "rubble". This thought has been ruminating in my brain since PonyCon and has made me reconsider the true origins of NC Sundance.

I am buried between doing preparation for my teaching and writing my thesis draft at the moment so it won't happen any time soon, but I do have a bunch of images somewhere on file sent me by someone in Europe of MOC ponies. I need to go over them again but I have this feeling there's at least one NC rainbow pony in there on a French card.

Edit - I lie, I checked it on my email. Pinwheel and Trickles on French card bought in France, no country, card says made in Spain. And the card is the one with UK style art that shows flutterbye, not the one with Starflower. (The one I still need an example of in my card collection, grrr). I have the images (front, back, hooves) for these but I can't give them to you for the gallery because they're not my ponies. I also have an image of a Pinwheel on the same card my Molinillo is on but in French - but she looks very zonked and I can't atm find hoof images for her to confirm if she has Spain on her feet or not. I can email those to you if you want to see them, but I can't really put them up :/

If the NC ones are also on Spanish card though it means they weren't just for export, but for domestic and export. And export seems to be French speaking countries but I dunno...can't remember seeing german carded NC ponies/Spanish ponies. So that's pretty limited export *ponders*. And right now I only have evidence for that one set, and only on the one card style.

See I don't focus so much on where they are made these days, I leave that to you guys, but I do focus on things like the packaging...

I don't unfortunately have cards for any of the NC you mention except the box for Sundance but I would agree. I actually don't think the zombie parents always look the same as the other NC ponies, I think that's a bit of an insult to Spanish ponies, who are generally less stoned and who actually seem to have properly rooted hair. But I can't be totally sure. Timeline-wise it also makes not much sense if they're Spanish. Why stop production and then begin it again? (Also, though, if ponies have Spain on the feet sometimes and then other times don;t, is that 2 factories in Spain and would that explain what I just wondered about?)

I have cookies for the OP I like discussions like this.

Ah, the baby mischiefs. And most of them are marked as being Chinese (4/6).

I am generally controversial because I dislike most of the long held beliefs about most types of ponies in one sense or other, from how we define years down to how we look at variants. But you know that In comparison, you're probably fine. I don't mind the fakies being thrown my way...