According to the U.S. Census, there are approximately 220,000 black people in Milwaukee. Anyone who believes they can make such general assumptions about them is way off-base.

Clearly there's a segment of mostly younger Milwaukee black residents in the community that needs immediate intervention. But calls for more personal responsibility are only appropriate if you truly believe the concept, which means you only hold the people who actually committed the crime personally responsible and no one else.

And you certainly can't blame it on culture....

Is Kane saying that if we believe that each individual is personally responsible for the crimes he commits, then we cannot think of the larger culture as causally related to crime problems? Obviously, it's important to refrain from judging individuals according to stereotypes — true or false stereotypes — applicable to groups, but Kane seems to be making a much broader point.

It would be interesting to know what the Journal-Sentinel's policy is on when comments are permitted.

Do the authors get to determine this, or is it up to the editor?

It's understandable that comments be forbidden for some articles, such as when someone is murdered. BUT, it seems that the Journal-Sentinel routinely blocks comments on anything that might be considered controversial.

Are discussions about race always controversial? Is the Journal-Sentinel's opinion of its readers so low that they are convinced that readers cannot deal with an occasional racist comment?

So, perhaps it's mutual: the Journal-Sentinel doesn't think much of its readers, and its readers don't think much of the Journal-Sentinel.

My solution is not related to African American culture. It should be applied to any group assault:

How do we get the fastest, most effective change of behavior to these racially-motivated beating riots and wildings that law-breaking black youth and black young adults are increasingly committing on non-blacks in Mid-West to East Coast America?

With jail time and the threat of jail time currently insufficient to change behavior, why not public beatings? Beatings would quickly communicate humiliation, shame, and, if done effectively, create a continued climate of fear of wrongdoing. Added to a shorter but still required incarceration, beatings would put a quicker stop to the growing black wildings gang mentality. Beating the guilty is really the only appropriate punishment for someone involved in the deliberate physical beating of an innocent human being. Of course there will be some who would use a personal beating to pump a rap career, but most young blacks would definitely turn away from the possibility of such punishment. That is what history has repeatedly shown to be true.

So, the question is: how many more white and other non-black Americans are you willing to let be beaten by unpunished black youth? What number of innocent victims should be permanently disabled, scarred and killed because they are not black before reaching your indignation threshhold?

Eugene Kane is Al Sharpton lite: a smaller-stage race flogger. He is the first to pin a "racist" tag on any policy or group he disagrees with, and will then hypocritically spin to demand that race be ignored when it doesn't suit his purpose. At least that's what I gleaned before I just stopped reading anything with his byline. Your post assures me that he hasn't changed.

As to personal responsibility, I think we should get crazy and try it sometime! But being that these are mostly minors we're talking about, it also makes sense to discuss parental responsibility and the environment these kids have been raised in.

"For Donovan and Dudzik to speak of State Fair mobs as part of black culture is the same as saying pedophile priests or schoolyard shootings reflect a deteriorating "white culture" because, after all, most of the people involved in those types of things are white."

BZZZZ. Wrong. When was the last time you tuned your radio to a channel devoted to playing music glorifying the molestation of children by priests or the shooting of innocents by madmen? Nice try.

You don't usually slight me, so I'm not pissed, but I remember making this same point and advocating for dropping the race angle altogether.

Also, I just watched this video of the incident and, if you ask me, these are kids and if the adults had remembered who they are - and not focused on the skin color of the children - they could've used their authority to take control of the situation easily.

This was allowed to happen because of immaturity - and not only the kids'.

from the article: But calls for more personal responsibility are only appropriate if you truly believe the concept, which means you only hold the people who actually committed the crime personally responsible and no one else.

So we're calling off our long national search for the "root causes" of crime? Fine with me.

You can't blame culture, because such things as "gang culture," "drug culture," "biker culture," "Goths," "Hackers," "Juggalos," "LGBTs," "Metalheads," "rave culture," "Skaters," "Swingers" and so many others are complete fiction, and do not ever drive individuals to do things they might not otherwise do, were they not members of these fictional cultures which bear no responsibility whatsoever for what ever acts are committed by their members, which, of course, do not exist.

So does calling for an intervention mean that the black thugs have a legitimate gripe against their white victims and that the differences between the head crackers and the crackers has to be mediated by a neutral representative of the state? Interventions my ass.

And for those of you who say this is because there are no dads, you're all supposed to be dads.

'splain.

If you mean that we're supposed to take responsibility, ie stop/correct badly acting out youth in our general vicinity, I agree. If you think that's actually going to happen in the litigious society we find ourselves in, I disagree.

If you mean I'm supposed to be the best dad I can to my own children and the best male roll model possible to all children within my influence, I agree. If you think I'm going to go out of my way, risk my family, my livelihood, and my life to make these idiots toe the line, I disagree.

The sub text of his argument is that if white people achieved tolerance and moral perfection, black youths would have no need for mayhem. It is of a piece with the Muslims who feel that opposition to their wish to build a mosque near the Ground Zero site demonstrates the intransigence and bigotry of the American public. This bland refusal to acknowledge the bigotry within their own community is itself a kind of racial bigotry......In 2000, on the Puerto Rican Parade Day, in Central Park, there were a series of sexual assaults on young women. The leaders of the Puerto Rican community did not try to minimize these assaults or excuse the wrongdoers. Instead, they joined the larger community in speaking out against them and calling for more aggressive policing. As a result, there has not been a repeat of these incidences. (Still, I would not recommend a Slut Walk in Central Park on that day)....Young people respond to social pressures within their community and, of course, to the cop on the corner. Over time the behavior of white people has changed. This is partially the result of earnest preaching by public figures. If the columnist could find it in his heart to be as critical of black thugs as he is of white people with improperly calibrated responses to black thugs, we would see improvement.

"The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests -- we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg: isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!"

I disagree that the responsibility for the huge percentage of fatherless households in the black community rests solely on their shoulders. LBJ's system was rigged against poor fathers from the get-go.

That doesn't in any way absolve a man's personal responsibility (a term which, in true Orwellian fashion, is being equated to racism these days) to take care of his own kids, but when he's forced away by the mother who wants a check and a system that heavily penalizes the man if it indeed every give him a fair shake at all is a huge disincentive to father properly.

And for those of you who say this is because there are no dads, you're all supposed to be dads.

Crack -- that dog can't hunt anymore. When I was a kid back after WW2 we'd all roam all over town, and if we stepped seriously out of line we'd have our backsides warmed by one of the parents over there.

Then it'd be warmed again at home for having embarrassed the family because someone else had to discipline us.

If I tried that with somebody else's kid today the cops'd have me in the hoosegow and the little bastard's parents would be suing me big time.

If I tried it with my own kid in public the best I could hope for would be a visit from Child Protective Services.

And we wonder why we have a youth culture of arrogant, spoiled, aggressive brats ...?

If you mean that we're supposed to take responsibility, ie stop/correct badly acting out youth in our general vicinity, I agree. If you think that's actually going to happen in the litigious society we find ourselves in, I disagree.

Exactly - there's your culprit. And, until that's solved, expect anyone who can get away with anything to do so.

What approach to parenting the children of others do you think we ought to follow? Do we wait until the kids have gone bad to start parenting them? If not, at what point in their lives do we step in? Do we wait to be invited, or do we just say "Crack Emcee sent me"? Do their moms get a say in which of us acts as their kids' dads?

I think the system in which we're dads to our own kids works a lot better.

Exactly - there's your culprit. And, until that's solved, expect anyone who can get away with anything to do so

Which doesn't change one iota the fact that there's a sub-culture of violence and entitlement, both of which lead to acts like this, in the black community, particularly those in the lower income brackets.

To kids, Chip. These are kids. Look at the video I linked to - those are kids. Children. Surrounded by "helpless" adults.

Doesn't work that way, Crack. Instantaneous parenting, that is. Dads reduce the number of at-risk kids by being there, day in and day out. Boys watch them get up for work each day. Watch how he treats women. See his physical dominance. It ain't magic. "Mentors" don't work, and trying to parent kids not accustomed to it, during a freaking riot, most certainly won't work.

Obviously, the large marjority of blacks did not "wild," never have and never will. But, such incidents, in our country, appear to be exclusively black. Plus, their may well be older blacks who support or tolerate such actions that do not participate. I don't believe younger blacks would do such things if they thought there would be harsh repercusions at home.

Call it a sub-culture if you wish, but it's there. Putting on blinders or demanding others do so won't help.

I disagree that the responsibility for the huge percentage of fatherless households in the black community rests solely on their shoulders. LBJ's system was rigged against poor fathers from the get-go.

Agreed. (Although I don't think this was the intended consequence.)

I consider politics to be part of culture, as politics responds to culture. Voters supported those programs, otherwise a calculating pol like LBJ would not have championed them.

Of course culture has an affect just as Church culture and practices allowed pedophile priests, so do some levels of black culture tolerate a lack of social and family responsibility. Add to that a heavily segregated city with low levels of employment for semi-skilled workers, yes I am assuming that many of these kids have few job skills, and you have a dangerous mix. It seems to me that both the community and the individuals should be accountable.

Until we stop thinking exclusively in terms of the "black community" or whatever, and get back to America, we're never going to get a handle on anything.

You're trying to redirect. This isn't "exclusively" about anything, in a general sense. It would occur to any community so beset by the problems I listed above. I just so happens, in this case, that we're talking about the black community.

Should be, "mentors don't work as well," as I've seen some success in that area.

I know, there are always exceptions. "In general, mentoring does not work as a replacement for fatherhood" is more accurate, but still leaves too much wiggle room for those who defending the indefensible. A caring adult in a troubled kid's life is alwasy helpful. But, when the dicussion is lack of fathers, mentoring doesn't work.

It seems to me that both the community and the individuals should be accountable.

What sorts of sanctions against "the community" do you have in mind?

Whenever there's a discussion of the minimum wage, those of us who warn about its adverse consequences for the employment of unskilled workers get told that our concerns are baseless. Then stuff like this happens and people bemoan widespread unemployment among unskilled youth.

“Take those God-darn hoodies down, especially in the summer,” Mr. Nutter, the city’s second black mayor, said in an angry lecture aimed at black teens. “Pull your pants up and buy a belt ‘cause no one wants to see your underwear or the crack of your butt.”

“If you walk into somebody’s office with your hair uncombed and a pick in the back, and your shoes untied, and your pants half down, tattoos up and down your arms and on your neck, and you wonder why somebody won’t hire you? They don’t hire you ‘cause you look like you’re crazy,” the mayor said. “You have damaged your own race.”

I wonder how many of our white "friends" would be willing to speak like that?

Sure. Only to have them lopped off by some judge in a civil suit after you step in to stop someone or correct some behavior and things go bad.

You can continue making appeals to manhood all you want, but part of being a man means having the good judgement when and where to apply your abilities. Stopping some asshole kid and "correcting him" from breaking a plate glass window I happen to be in the vicinity of, or holding him until the cops get there, just doesn't seem like it's worth losing my house over or being put in jail, so I can't raise MY kids.

Come up with a solution to the litigious society thing and I'm all ears.

It's too late for that - the damage has already been done. We have to do what we have to do - we're fucking MEN for Christ's sake: It's time to grow a couple.

If you didn't produce such a consistently thoughtful web site I would take offense to that. I hear you. Trust me. I am ALWAYS the nerd Dad at the little league game keeping other brats in line, even policing loud-mouth adults.

My point is, standing up to kids engaging in My First 'Lil Race Riot does nothing to address the actual problem: they want to riot and they want to punch their white neighbors in the face.

I wonder how many of our white "friends" would be willing to speak like that?

When the general consensus of black leadership publicly and consistently echos this sentiment, I suspect you'll get overwhelming white support. For that matter, you'll also get red, yellow, and brown support.

Come up with a solution to the litigious society thing and I'm all ears.

I know, but voting the bastards out of office is all I've (ultimately) got, too. But men - and I mean it just like that - have got to decide what they're going to do. It's not enough to, say, vote Obama out. What will we replace that image/outlook/politics with?

"Obviously, it's important to refrain from judging individuals according to stereotypes — true or false stereotypes — applicable to groups."

Unfortunately, that is an ideal of liberals now masquerading as some moral absolute that society should swallow.People in real life cannot avoid use of helpful stereotypes - the famous Jesse Jackson example of walking at night and looking at 3 people he heard coming up to him from behind and feeling relief they were white teens and not black teens. The teacher worried about her merit based pay based on sstudent testing that feels enormous relief when she is assigned the white and Vietnamese-American class in Tampa vs. the Haitian refugee one down the hall.

While culture is contributory, rates of violence and educational attainment do follow race and ethnicity in very different cultures. Overseas Chinese in Panama, the UK, Nebraska, Capetown SA tend to have the same low crime rates and good educational attainment.Blacks in various globally dispersed cities have similar violence and educational attainment levels. Even in lands with no "legacy" of treating blacks differently than any other person. Problems in Jamaica, Brazil, the USA - but similar behavior and achievement levels in Sweden, Russia (which wants to get rid of it's black 'guests'.)

Last year at the Iowa State Fair, there were numerous assaults on white fair goers by black youths. It was reported that the kids were calling it "Get Whitey Night".

When I was in high school, there was one night you were supposed to avoid the fair because it was “gang initiation night”. I don’t know if this was an urban legend or truth, but it was pretty well known in my social circle. (this was in little rock in the 90’s, right about the time HBO made “Bangin in the Rock” so there were plenty of gang folks running around).

As for the "we can't blame culture" guy, that's bunk. There are always lone psycho's and then there are group problems that are absolutely cultural. It's fair to ask which one this is.

tradguy - "The DC rulers are not traditionally at war with the US population. That came in with Pelosi and Obama, and God willing will leave in 2012."

Not exactly true. There were periods when the American masses rulers in DC and NYC were owned by the Banks (which took Andrew Jackson to launch a 2nd democratic revolution to fix), then the railroads and Robber Barons which necessitated a new government dedicated to trust-busting.

Then it got a little harder to reverse the doings of the Elites - as the Ruling Elites of the Imperial regions of DC and Manhattan figured out that blind American deference to fellow Elites sitting in courts meant they could make abortion, the Great Society, affirmative action - permanent.Whole American cities could be made into ruins.

And before Obama, you had Clinton, then Bush/Hastert/DeLay selling out the American middle class to globalism, Corportists, and the international bankers and free traders. Both Republicans and Democrats in DC have decided on mass 3rd World immigration into the USA - no matter what the people want. With the lawyers dressed in robes backing their play every step of the way.

It took a lot of effort to put America into it's decline and it's middle class on the path of each new gen will not have what their parents had in terms of wealth, ability to get a good job. Decades of the knife being slipped in. It didn't begin with Obama and Pelosi.

Although Kane does blame some white people for being ignorant (and that is the focus of his column: some ignorant white people), he doesn't actually claim white people as the root cause of the wildings. That almost seems like progress.

Keep calling it like you see it. While I think my set is pretty secure, we all need to be reminded to grow a pair sometimes.

One thing I've noticed is, when my Dad took me to sporting events as a kid, he would occasionally have to tell a drunk to watch his language around kids. And they generally would. Now, if I tried that today to protect my kid, I'm pretty sure I'd be attacked. Good times!

You ought to look into Catholic schools, for Christ's sake. Plenty of good celibate men ready, willing and able to help black youth.

The pastor of our church in Maysville, KY, St. Patrick's, is a native Ugandan. Great guy. I find some humor in a genuine African with near perfect diction, performing ceremonies and preaching to a bunch of mostly country folks in rural Kentucky. We all love him.

Black culture isn't the problem? Oh wait. But who do I blame on how primarily blacks got to this point? Democrats.

You can only blame part of it on the Klan-style Democrats that ruled the roost before the civil rights era. After that, you have to switch blame to the LBJ Democrats who destroyed the black family while claiming to want to help it.

Oh it's definitely culture. They're even academic studies on this now. The mistake was to laud "black culture" in the first place, because now the ugly aspects of it (if there is even an "it") can be disparaged.

Crack you make it sound like Obama is the problem, but he is one of the good men you want who take responsibility for his family. If there were more black fathers like him, I suspect there would be less problems in the black culture. There were good men at the State Fair, but they were surrounded by the mod,not the other way around-- take a look at the number of good men who ended up in the hospital. I am not clear on what you think will root out the problem other than repeating we need good men--

Black culture is not ok. A look at levels of crime, drug problems, abortion and children without effective fathers is all you need to know that. Throw in low educational achievement and you have a disaster.

Unless you are prepared to argue that American blacks are innately less responsible, less educationally able and more prone to crime than other races, it has to be the culture.

The Mayor of Philadelphia, a black man, just said that black youths who have been marauding on the streets of his city have damaged their own race.

R-V: You are right about Obama being a good father, or at least appearing to be one. But he is not a good leader inasmuch as he has not lifted a finger or his oh-so-wonderful voice to condemn the culture (because it is culture, 100% of it is culture)that has produced masses of black kids to behave in this way. We aren't talking about masses of white kids doing this kind of thing. At least not yet.

I don't have the time to read thru all these posts(I wish, but I'm a working girl on my lunch hour), but...to me, it's all about how you raise your kids. I don't care about culture, religion, where you're from, blah...blah...blah. I taught my boys to respect others, be honest, take responsibility. It's not rocket science, and it really works.

One way to change bad behavior is to disapprove of bad behavior. Fail for Kane on this.....I grew up and spent my early manhood in mixed or black neighborhoods. I knew many blacks with grand reserves of kindness and good humor. It was a positive experience knowing them. I was also subject to several wilding incidents. In my experience, one wilding incident can utterly demolish a thousand positive experiences.....These incidents will not inspire a violent response from whites. They will, however, cause most whites to steer a wide berth of black neighborhoods and black youths. There will be a net increase of distrust and hostility among the races......Blacks cannot bear to acknowledge this simple truth, but the fact of the matter is that they have the most to gain from good relations with whites and the most to lose when they ethnically cleanse white from their midst.

I'm sure it's been said before, probably on this thread, but I think many black people are still playing the slave card. Those days are long gone. They are better off in the US than in Africa. Would any of them want to be back in Africa? Get over it, start a new life. Raise your kids to take advantage of what this country has to offer. How many young people rose from parents who were coal miners and steel workers and farmers to achieve a better life? That is what America is all about.

Bigger Thomas or Uncle Tom. Uncle Tom started a revolution that helped end the four thousand year old instution of African slavery. His example has been thoroughly discredited in the black community. Anyone who gets along too well with whites is a sell out. Uncle Tom is dead and gone. Look to Bigger Thomas. Now there's a guy to emulate. The way to handle imbalances in the power relationships is to kill the relationship or, ideally, the powerful. It is a liberating experience. Look how people prosper and thrive afterwards.

Today's conversation brings to mind something a former member of the First Presidency of the Mormon Church (and former U.S. Ambassador to Mexico) said way back on October 7, 1935:

“The dispensing of these great quantities of gratuities has produced in the minds of hundreds of thousands—if not millions—of people in the United States a love for idleness, a feeling that the world owes them a living."

"It has made a breeding ground for some of the most destructive political doctrines that have ever found any hold in this country of ours, and I think it may lead us into serious political trouble."

“I fear, we need not be surprised if some blood shall run before we of this nation finally find ourselves.”

Crack you make it sound like Obama is the problem, but he is one of the good men you want who take responsibility for his family. If there were more black fathers like him, I suspect there would be less problems in the black culture.

He's lied so often, right to our faces, I hardly consider him a good role model for anyone. His daughters just aren't old enough to know what a scumbag he is - and, because he's been made president, they probably never will.

He sat in Wright's church for 20 years and never heard racist anti-Americanisms? Bill Ayers was "just a guy in the neighborhood"?

[Obama's] never been part of "the culture" though. So he's arguably not the best role model for these young men.

You guys really don't get it:

i don't have time to retell the story here, but I've seen white women control black teenagers. What made it possible was she cared and didn't think of them as anything but children - she was the adult, expecting them to be "good boys" (I'll never forget the way she said that: "They're good boys")

The problem I see here is y'all don't feel connected to black people as, say, I usually feel (or want to feel) connected to the rest of America. You'll never connect with anyone that way.

What made it possible was she cared and didn't think of them as anything but children - she was the adult, expecting them to be "good boys" (I'll never forget the way she said that: "They're good boys")

Not even an iota of possibility that a woman authority figure, probably the only sort these hooligans have ever known, would have more of a positive affect on them than a white male?

ScottNot even an iota of possibility that a woman authority figure, probably the only sort these hooligans have ever known, would have more of a positive affect on them than a white male?

While I'm not going to discount the value of male authority figures (God knows that culture needs them), you might be surprised at the value of a female authority figure. Black incarceration rates result in a highly unbalanced relationship pool in which many black women have to put up with indignities such as being nothing more than a booty call to even "have" a mate. By the time black boys are teenagers, they see that they have the power and don't respect women, not even their own mothers. A white woman demanding the respect she deserves can be a much needed slap in the face to recognizing that other women deserve respect too.

When I worked in an inner city high school, I saw quite clearly that most of the students had no respect for anyone ... but it was also obvious that most female teachers either didn't care or were actually scared to demand the respect to which they were entitled. No big surprise then that they never got it. But my kids, with only a few exceptions, did respect me, and I can hope it served as a model for the boys on how to treat women, and for the women on how to be treated.

No, the problem is - whoever you put up - there's always some yahoo trying to knock him/them down.

We've got to grow up as a people.

Also, there would be no child molesters if we sufficiently punished the ones we did find. Name me the pedophile priest you know of who really paid the price? I don't know of one. Because that's who we are today:

Rialby wrote:Of course you can't. Except if you're on the Left and you're casting aspersions on white conservatives.

In a nutshell.

If blacks became the target of a mass assault perpetrated by a gang of white youths who had been immersed for years in skinhead culture Eugene Kane and his ilk would not hesitate to blame white culture.

Too little and way too late. It's taken forty years of toxic culture to produce this chaos, and lectures from the pulpit and police action won't help unless it's sustained for decades.

"City Hall is also enlisting the help of hip-hop artists to deliver a strong message against the violent outbreaks." Heh. One might as well enlist Ghengis Khan in a campaign against rapine and slaughter.

Speak for yourself, son. And maybe stay away from offering yourself up as a "man role model" until you get your own life better under control?

I invite you to drop into a local Christian church too, if you continue suffering to suffer from the "nothing". People are there to help -- good people, men and women -- if only you can open your eyes and see.

That's not New Age. That's old, way old. And forgive me for saying it, but you perhaps sound like you might be suffering from a strong case of the depression blues after your divorce.

It's not a medical condition necessarily, but before you try to help others, maybe you can help fix your own attitudes? Kinda like practicing before you're preaching.

I saw a black kid wearing a "STOP SNITCHIN'" shirt in the neighborhood today. It's been a while since I've seen any of those. You can't keep bad ideas down, I guess.

I saw a mother on a plane recently. She had three boys with her. The oldest was white/blond-curly, the middle was mixed/brown-fro, and the youngest was white/blond-curly. My first thought was, "You can go back, I guess."

Awesome link. I had never heard him respond to the "dirty laundry" accusation before. I remember when it was made and how ridiculous it sounded at the time. I also remember Tavis Smiley's crew nodding an um-hmm-ing right along with the accuser.

Eugene Kane is a hateful affirmative action hire. Were he not Black and liberal, he wouldn't have a job with the Journal Sentinel. Kane has admitted in the past to having participated in "mob" actions. But since those were about "civil rights", they were ok. His reference to pedophile priests is an ugly slur and a distraction. The overwhelming response to news of pedophile priests was horror and disdain. I'm not sure I'm seeing waves of outrage out of the Black community on what happened at the State Fair.

I won't hold my breath waiting for Black religious leaders to step-up either. Margaret Sanger recruited Black clergy to support her Negro Project. If Black clergy are willing to sanction the taking of life from an unborn Black baby, how can they claim a moral status to correct anyone about anything?

Crack, I think I agree that men need to be an integral part in the raising of children, both male and female. Boys need men to show them how to be men. However, once a mob is on the role, only force and exhaustion are going to stop them. Any casual individual isn't going to stop them. As for your story of a White woman stopping a bunch of Black youths, did you know her or the youths? It is possible they knew each other, and so she had a connection to them, you didn't know about?

Is this racial or cultural? I would hope cultural, because cultures can, and do change. (See "stock markets go up and stock markets go down.)

By the way, the commentThe problem I see here is y'all don't feel connected to black people as, say, I usually feel (or want to feel) connected to the rest of America. You'll never connect with anyone that way. is overly patronizing. It would be insulting if it wasn't so melodramatic. If you want to connect with your audience, don't insult them.

But calls for more personal responsibility are only appropriate if you truly believe the concept, which means you only hold the people who actually committed the crime personally responsible and no one else.

Flip Wilson settled that question years ago. "The DEVIL made me do it!"

Civilized children are not raised by the President's remarks, or the Mayor's, or the Pres. of NAACP. Nor are they corrupted by the oral antics of Pres Clinton, for example.

Civilized children are raised by the adults who are in daily contact with them: parents, teachers, coaches, neighbors. Those adults have the right and responsibility to train, guide, and demonstrate by example, in order to raise a civilized next generation. They need to point out where "public adults" like the Mayor, are behaving correctly, and also to point out where public adults are misbehaving. But, adults in general must not abdicate their parental and social responsibilities to such "public adults" (even though the trend seems to be in that direction).

Many legal and structural obstacles we have created, which promote that abdication, MUST be removed, as several have pointed out in this thread.

Speak for yourself, son. And maybe stay away from offering yourself up as a "man role model" until you get your own life better under control?

I offered myself up as a "man role model"? Where? What the fuck are you talking about?

I invite you to drop into a local Christian church too, if you continue suffering to suffer from the "nothing".

Here we go - sorry, Jesus Lady, but you can now go to Hell. I've done nothing to you, and didn't insult you when you first started with this church shit, but now that you've dropped to the level of calling me "son" and insisting on going delusional, fuck you. I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again:

When they go for the divorce they've run out of bullets - or brain cells.

Mary, go fuck yourself.

Milwaukee,

By the way, the comment The problem I see here is y'all don't feel connected to black people as, say, I usually feel (or want to feel) connected to the rest of America. You'll never connect with anyone that way. is overly patronizing. It would be insulting if it wasn't so melodramatic. If you want to connect with your audience, don't insult them.

Dude, you may not have noticed but Fen thinks blacks are Apes when he's angry and Sixty Grit keeps loaded guns for blacks - not criminals - blacks. And no matter how often I say lets think away from the color line, I get a stupid argument.

I'm sorry, but, yeah, I feel more American than the rest of you seem to be because those barriers just aren't there. I get the same thing from my black friends. You ultimately all just want to kill each other.

And I'm almost at the point of wanting to see you do it so whoever's left can finally get some peace.

I blame it all on culture--the culture of legislatures that enact welfare entitlements, compulsory attendance laws, and minimum wage laws. We force children to learn hopelessness and uselessness and expect them to swallow it. Consider these charts, which a statistician in the office of the Attorney Geneeral, State of Hawaii, gave me.

I blame it all on culture--the culture of legislatures that enact welfare entitlements, compulsory attendance laws, and minimum wage laws. We force children to learn hopelessness and uselessness and expect them to swallow it.

Crack: at the end of the day, on many core issues, I think we might agree more than we disagree. When we do disagree I hope we'll find away to do so agreeably.

Me too. Sorry.

Look, what I'm "selling" is being American. I don't care what color you are, or what culture you come from (we've got a billion of them) but what we share. And, until we become firm in our conviction to defend that - while celebrating the rest - we're lost.

I'm a Mom-and-Apple Pie American, first and foremost, but I'm Irish on St. Paddy's Day, and I say "Shalom" at the synagogue, and when I'm with my black friends everything's got to be on the One.

Why others don't feel that way, I don't know, but every time there's a lick of conflict, that's the first thing that gets tossed over the side - when it ought to be the last thing we discard.

I think the response to this based on what The Crack MC has been saying is "Oh, you think so, do you? Your turn will come!"

The rioters are kids that have been brought up with a certain set of standards -- and lack of standards -- for what is acceptable behavior, partly because of what they see others around them getting away with and of what they don't see (that is, fathers vs. babydaddies). These kids happen to be black. But it's not genetic -- any kids of any color raised that way will behave that way.

Think of black people as the canary in the coal mine. What's happening to them could happen to you.

In the mid-1960s the black illegimicy rate was about 20 percent. By the mid-1990s it was about 70 percent. Pathologies ensued.

In the mid-1960s the white illegimicy rate was about 4 percent. By the mid-1990s it was about 20 percent. "If this goes on ..." What'll it be in 2030? And how will white kids act?

Wow.Turns out, little Crackee must not have had a few good MEN in his life either. Still waiting for the white men to lead the way, eh?

Sad, sad, sad specimen you are. Is it your culture, listening to too much rap perhaps? Or are you just angry against all women, and only a Good White Male role model can help you now???

"Dude, you may not have noticed but Fen thinks blacks are Apes when he's angry and Sixty Grit keeps loaded guns for blacks - not criminals - blacks. And no matter how often I say lets think away from the color line, I get a stupid argument."

Dude, if you want to be treated like a MAN, start acting like one? So some folks don't like you and are prejudiced against you. Poor fella. NOTHING like that ever happens to white people or women, or *sob, sob, sob* anyone who didn't have the misfortune to be born ... black.

(Actually, a good White Male role model -- like the ones you were calling out for upthread -- might teach you: You can't control other people's thoughts. But you definitely CAN control how you react and respond. You chose to respond like a little, potty-mouthed boy. I hear your culture today teaches you, That's What Men Do. Nope, keep looking...)

Your macho schtick is running thin, friend. If you have to verbally attack well meaning women, and if your divorce means you loathe half the population, you're only hurting yourself, you know.

"I'm a Mom-and-Apple Pie American, first and foremost, but I'm Irish on St. Paddy's Day, and I say "Shalom" at the synagogue, and when I'm with my black friends everything's got to be on the One."

Does being American mean white people are expected to celebrate Kwaanza?

Sounds like you're still trying to figure our your own identity, and you're latching on to other people's traditions. (Do you go to church on St. Patrick's Day then, or just try to get lucky with the non-Irist but pretending too white women downing the green beer.)

"Why do you have to be an expert on Afro-American culture? Bad behavior is bad behavior. That is what you need to condemn (and punish)."Because the majority population has the bad habit of extrapolating behavior by any member, of any minority group, to that entire group. Notice the problem isn't that they are thugs - whom we all agree should be apprehended and punished - but that they are BLACK thugs, as if their skin color is a major factor in their thuggery.

Democrats: "I'm worried about black people. Can I help you, black people? Can I give you some money, black people? I'm on your side, black people. Don't worry about your crime rates, black people. I totally get that. Can I get you a job, black people? You don't have to study or anything like that. Just identify yourself as a black person so I know who you are. Man, I just love black people so much. Why are you hitting me?"

Within our lifetimes, we have seen mobs of racists rampaging. The faces change, as do the races, but the reactions remain the same.

When white mobs attacked blacks, many whites ignored it, some applauded it as rough justice, others acted in solidarity with those attacked, but most told themselves that these were not “white people” but racist individuals or small groups.

White mobs don’t rampage any more, black ones do. And in the black community most ignore it (what can we do?), some say it’s understandable retribution, and others tell us it’s not black mobs but “youths.”

Out of white violence an entire racial industry was created with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, government departments and the faculty of the racial studies departments of most universities the primary beneficiaries. Will we see their racial doppelgangers?

Democrats: "We're looking at the economic data, and although white unemployment is at 30%, black unemployment is at 40% for the under 30 segment, which according to our policy projections that is the variable we should be looking at for street crime. Thus if we can just raise black employment or increase white unemployment, eventually we will achieve our projections of complete and utter racial equality. At least for the under-30 segment. Which as I said in my policy report on page 1362, is what we're looking at in terms of street crime. So far we haven't seen any rise in white flash mobs. No, wait, sorry, I forgot about those 207 people who died in New York City. But that was an isolated incident and we have modified our projections accordingly."

Notice the problem isn't that they are thugs - whom we all agree should be apprehended and punished - but that they are BLACK thugs, as if their skin color is a major factor in their thuggery.

Yes. 99% of the time, race is irrelevant. Crime is a function of individual choice, free will, and the family environment you grew up in. If you don't have a father or father-figure, you are far more likely to have issues that might lead to crime.

No certainties in life, but kids need fathers. And one of the things the left has done over the last 40 years is to attack patriarchy and fatherhood.

But you can't look at a black kid and assume no father. It's retarded. It's like the basketball assumption. Worst basketball player I ever saw in my entire life was a 6 foot 6 black guy. I shit you not. I remember because I picked him first for gym class.

The 1% of time that race is relevant, by the way, is when you are in a race riot, or you're dealing with somebody who's got race issues. Racism doesn't know color, either, but you are forced to acknowledge your own race at that point and watch out.

(Fen): "His 'macho response' is to pretend that black culture is not the most significant contributer to all the black wilding we've seen over the last year.

'Everyone does it, so they are excused. And can't we all just get along.'

Except, everyone does NOT do it."

I would not call Crack MC's position a a pretense. We don't all start from the same place. I suggest that the significant "cultural" difference at issue is the difference between the academic culture of the people who design school policy and labor policy, on the one hand, and the culture of low-income working people, on the other.

Compulsory attendance laws, child labor laws, and minimum wage laws put on the job training off limits to most children. This does not matter as much to children whose parents have academic aspirations as to children whose parents expect them to go to work after high school. Training an artistically or mechanically inclined child for an academic career using the transcript as an incentive is like teaching a cat to swim using carrots as the reward. Schools give to many normal children no reason to do what schools require. You can't eat a transcript. The impact of the incentive structure of standard schooling varies with socioeconomic status.

Compulsory, unpaid labor (e.g., school) is slavery, black or white, male or female, young or old.

Hyman and Penroe__Journal of School Psychology__ "Several studies of maltreatment by teachers suggest that school children report traumatic symptoms that are similar whether the traumatic event was physical or verbal abuse (references deleted). Extrapolation from these studies suggests that psychological maltreatment of school children, especially those who are poor, is fairly widespread in the United States....In the early 1980s, while the senior author was involved in a school violence project, an informal survey of a random group of inner city high school students was conducted. When asked why they misbehaved in school, the most common response was that they wanted to get back at teachers who put them down, did not care about them, or showed disrespect for them, their families, or their culture...."

Hyman and Penroe__Journal of School Psychology__ "The results indicated that at least 1% to 2% of the respondents' symptoms were sufficient for a diagnosis of PTSD. It is known that when this disorder develops as a result of interpersonal violence, externalizing symptoms are often the result.(references deleted). While 1% to 2% might not seem to be a large percentage of a school-aged population, in a system like New York City, this would be about 10,000 children so traumatized by educators that they may suffer serious, and sometimes lifelong emotional problems (references deleted). A good percentage of these students develop angry and aggressive responses as a result. Yet, emotional abuse and its relation to misbehavior in schools receives little pedagogical, psychological, or legal attention and is rarely mentioned in textbooks on school discipline (references deleted). As with corporal punishment, the frequency of emotional maltreatment in schools is too often a function of the socioeconomic status (SES) of the student population (reference deleted)."

Karen Brockenbrough, Dewey G. Cornell, Ann B. Loper "Aggressive Attitudes Among Victims of Violence at School"__Education and the Treatment of Children__, Aug., 2002."Violence at school is a prevalent problem. According to a national survey of school proncipals (National Center for Educational Statistics, 1998), over 200,000 serious fights or physical attacks occurred in public schools during the 1996-1997 school year. Serious violent crimes occurred in approximately 12% of middle schools and 13% of high schools. Student surveys (Kann et al, 1995) indicate even higher rates of aggressive behavior. Approximately 16.2% of high school students nationwide reported involvement in a physical fight at school during a 30-day period, and 11.8% reported carrying a weapon on school property (Kann et al, 1995). Research on victims of violence at school suggests that repeated victimization has detrimental effects on a child's emotional and social development (Batsche & Knoff, 1995; Hoover, Oliver, & Thomson, 1993; Olweus, 1993). Victims exhibit higher levels of anxiety and depression, and lower self-esteem than non-victims"

Clive Harber "Schooling as Violence"__Educatioinal Review__ (Quoting) "...It is almost certainly more damaging for children to be in school than to out of it. Children whose days are spent herding animals rather than sitting in a classroom at least develop skills of problem solving and independence while the supposedly luckier ones in school are stunted in their mental, physical, and emotional development by being rendered pasive, and by having to spend hours each day in a crowded classroom under the control of an adult who punishes them for any normal level of activity such as moving or speaking."

Clive Harber"Schooling as Violence"__Educatioinal Review__ "Furthermore, according to a report for UNESCO, cited in Esteve (2000), the increasing level of pupil-teacher and pupil-pupil violence in classrooms is directly connected with compulsory schooling. The report argues that institutional violence against pupils who are obliged to attend daily at an educational centre until 16 or 18 years of age increases the frustration of these students to a level where they externalise it."

Because he be sitting back waiting for the White Folk to take care of the problem.

Witness: "And for those of you who say this is because there are no dads, you're all supposed to be dads."

"Naw, we need GOOD MEN - of any color."

"I offered myself up as a "man role model"? Where? What the fuck are you talking about?"

First, he calls for all of us to be dads to the wilding black youth. Then, he runs and hides when people ask -- as a black man, what exactly are YOU doing to play daddy figure to these young men seemingly made in your own black image -- crickets and cuss words at the white woman on the thread...

He thinks he's a conservative, perhaps, problem is: he's not part of any culture he's interested in preserving, hence the "I'm Irish on St. Pat's day" diversity lingo.

Why not just be a confident black man? Why not practice what you teach in terms of role modelings?

Probably because it's easier to whine and complain than to stand up and be a black man who's not looking for the rest of us to solve his culture's problems...

(And yep the y'all was definitely meant in the second person plural. As in, to more than one person commenting on the thread. But thanks for the lecture anyway.)