I think a lot has to do with how people label what they experience. This has to do with their particular inculturation. In a Catholic setting they may say they met Jesus or Mary while a Spiritist could claim to have spoken to their guides. These types of stories are both out there, I have read both types of accounts. You would need to do real research to get the actual numbers.
Then there is a (growing, IMHO) group of people who are loath to pin their encounter onto traditional interpretations. These may speak of beings of light or energy. How could we know for sure that the often encountered being of light is not in fact a spirit guide?

That is a good explanation about the different descriptions of "Being" encounters.

What I am stuck on is these people who are suppose to be "experts" on the subject of spirit guides(and have written books) are indicating that the guides are always with us. My logic then tells me that as we have left the body these guides should be apparent to us but in most NDE and OBE stories they aren't.

Chuck,
When over there, I didn't "see" anyone, but I knew, and felt, and was clearly aware of presences - and had clear, easy communication with them... visuals weren't needed. The communication was absorbed into me. Communication, far more relevant and pure than here. Tough to understand, but just how it was.

Chuck,
No one specifically identified themselves. But, I clearly knew that I was in the presence of the one who loved me beyond my ability to understand love. The one who cared about me, even much more than I cared about myself. I felt safe and loved.
Any question I wanted to know an answer to... the answer was given without my asking, it was already known and understood. But, I knew and understood that I would not be able to bring much of this information with me upon my return. I have a memory of having known the answers to many, many, many things. Most of those details were left there.
I also have a recollection of having visited and traveled to places I had never been. I could think about a place and be there, it was an overhead view. I remember seeing things like the grand canyon, and place very close to my home. It seemed that if I thought of a place, instantly, I saw it, along with interactions going on around the places.

Ano1, your experience is really fascinating. Very strange I would imagine to relay this experience into words for us to read. For me, the ability to instantly know everything without using the senses of the human body are just unimaginable. I don't think we would every be able to truly understand your experience until we experience it for ourselves. Simply Amazing.

Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in awhile, you could miss it.

I think DennisMe's explanation is the correct one. In order to evaluate what is happening in an NDE, which is to say, if we hope to learn something about the "nature of life" from it, then we need to filter out the "personal content", which is full of cultural, hereditary, and other "learned" images and beliefs. In short, anything you "carry with you" into the experience, other than your "sense of self", is personal content. And even that will be surrendered after merging or absorption. I would suggest that the fascination with spirit guides itself is personal content, the result of carrying an identification with one's planetary body, and the persona built on and attached to it, into the experience.

There is a lot of evidence which suggests that, under normal circumstances (a natural, non-violent death), this transitory personal content can persist for a day or two (in earth time) as the consciousness which has left the body stops identifying with the personal self and merges into the Light Being. It can be likened to an ice cube melting into an ocean. I believe Christianity refers to this period as "Purgatory", where one is "neither here nor there", an apt phrase, IMO.

So I think the key to understanding this question is in this matter of Identification. This is a great challenge for the person who has never had an NDE or OBE or any experience of themself other than their own personality. When you say "I", what is it you are referring to? For most folks, it can be a multiplicity of things and changes from moment to moment. But following an NDE, it is different. The "I" you know is not attached to, or identified with, the body or anything built upon the circumstances of its life. We gradually learn to Identify with the body following birth, and we (less gradually) surrender this attachment at death.

I think that the most difficult thing for most folks to accept is the temporal and temporary nature of incarnation. If you can accept this, then the understanding comes more easily.

David,
You are right. Words cannot convey the experience.
I have never been able to completely rejoin this human place... because, I have been changed by my experience.
I don't enjoy excessive amounts of 'material things'. With few exceptions, I prefer needs to wants.
Encounters and relationships with people are more important to me than things.

Precaud:

There is a lot of evidence which suggests that, under normal circumstances (a natural, non-violent death), this transitory personal content can persist for a day or two (in earth time) as the consciousness which has left the body stops identifying with the personal self and merges into the Light Being.

For me...right away, I did not care about my body. I looked at my body with no real emotion. It no longer mattered and I was okay with that.
But, I did have my own thoughts, I did not merge into the light being, I did communicate very freely. I did not sense that I would lose my identity. I knew this (person, for a lack of understandable word), was superior to me...not my equal, of that there was no doubt. I had a reverence for this supreme being.
I had no body, but I did have my own sense of self.

precaud wrote:There is a lot of evidence which suggests that, under normal circumstances (a natural, non-violent death), this transitory personal content can persist for a day or two (in earth time) as the consciousness which has left the body stops identifying with the personal self and merges into the Light Being.

ano1 wrote:For me...right away, I did not care about my body. I looked at my body with no real emotion. It no longer mattered and I was okay with that.

Yes, I remember that too. Dispassion is the word I use for it. And it was fairly immediate after leaving the body. But that is not what I was referring to. Our sense of self, and all the subjective content that comes along with it, can survive for some time apart from the body and before "absorption". We see that in many instances of people going to their favorite places, meeting family and people close to them, encountering religious figures, etc. etc. It's an "in-between zone" where we still have a sense of self and can recognize other "beings" as distinct and separate from us. But it can only exist in that zone for a short time.

Read the story of Lazarus with this in mind. It was an "induced NDE gone bad". (As I've written here before, inducing an NDE was in times past a common Rite of Initiation.) In this case, Lazarus had been unconscious for three days, had not come out of it, and those around him were worried that he wouldn't come back. They knew there was a time limit... a point of no return... Jesus saw immediately what was going on and knew how to bring him back: "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God".

It is unlikely that your health insurance company would cover this procedure nowadays

ano1 wrote:But, I did have my own thoughts, I did not merge into the light being, I did communicate very freely. I did not sense that I would lose my identity. I knew this (person, for a lack of understandable word), was superior to me...not my equal, of that there was no doubt. I had a reverence for this supreme being. I had no body, but I did have my own sense of self.

And that explains it. For whatever reason, you were apparently in no "danger" of dying completely. So you got to witness and experience these beings and yet still retain your sense of self, your own thoughts, etc. For someone who is going to return, that almost sounds like the ideal scenario, the "best of both worlds". That was a transitory phase for me. I didn't get to hang out and experience this being as something separate from me for very long.

Maybe some day we'll understand more about what causes some NDE's to penetrate more deeply toward the "Point of No Return" than others. It's fascinating to hear the different details of our experience and try to make some sense of it.

ano1,
I can't tell you precisely "how", I can only relate to you my experience. Short version: There was a point of complete stillness, where everything disappeared except for this sense of self, which referred to nothing other than itself. Then, after "folding inside out" and entering the "cloud tunnel", my sense of self quickly faded. The "something" that I sensed "in the distance" felt much stronger than I and I felt myself drawn to it. Soon I "saw" it, not a physical seeing, a radiant Light Being, and felt myself being pulled into it. I was overcome with the love and warmth I felt from it and totally surrendered into it as I was drawn into it. In that moment I gave myself up to the merging. It felt like home, where I belonged. Shortly thereafter I lost consciousness completely. Some 1.5 to 2 hours later, I "came to" in my body, lying on the floor just as it was before. What happened in the interim, I do not know. My first feeling was of intense disappointment, almost revulsion, at being back in the body. I didn't belong here. I wanted to be back in the light being.

Regarding this fascinating subject, I would like to pose a question to those who have had this experience, as I have not had one myself. If, as Precaud states, once one has crossed the "point of no return", a merge occurs and all sense of self is lost, then this would invalidate all after-death communication and a great amount of paranormal phenomena. I do not in the least see how the two ideas are even remotely compatible. So, my question is: If a sense of self and knowledge of who one is or was on Earth completely disappears, how is it possible for the deceased to communicate with the living and how is it possible for those crossing over to meet deceased loved ones, if they have "merged" and cease to exist in any form?

A good and reasonable question. I'm not sure anyone here can answer it with confidence. We don't know what happens "post-merger". Over the years I have read in various occult and esoteric-religious texts that the "soul" is accessible, hovering in the atmosphere, as it were, for up to three days. Some schools in the East claim to have trained mediums exactly for the purpose of maintaining contact with them. There is also a suggestion that, once merged, the former individual consciousness "finds its place" in its new home, just like it did when it came to earth. It's a major adjustment and takes some time to acclimatize to it.

I have lost two close relatives, and in both cases, they "paid me a visit" on their way out. In both cases, it was at night. I woke up, feeling like they were in the room with me. I never saw them, but I felt them. Knew it was them. And then it passed. Next day, I learned they had died.

Frankly, I don't take such events literally. People and animals are known to have sympathetic contact with loved ones hundreds, even thousands of miles away. Distance doesn't seem to be a factor on whatever level this messaging takes place. Again, there are some that claim that our distant ancestors were way more sensitive and attuned to this sort of thing. They trained and developed their sensitivity to it. I have no reason to doubt that. Most modern folks regard their inner life as some sort of uncontrollable leakage, an inevitable waste product of living, and give it no significance whatsoever. It is a sad state of affairs.

Are you saying then, essentially, that any ADC that occurs after a 3-day period is a hoax or at the very least wishful thinking? Or is such contact still possible once the soul has found its place if one is open and attuned to it?

I have lost two close relatives, and in both cases, they "paid me a visit" on their way out. In both cases, it was at night. I woke up, feeling like they were in the room with me. I never saw them, but I felt them. Knew it was them. And then it passed. Next day, I learned they had died.

This happened to me too. While awake, when my mom passed. I 'knew' her presence was with me and my young son, we were in the grocery store; when we got home the phone was ringing, it was my sister calling to say, mom had passed.
Another time, I awoke at 3:04 am with a feeling that my mother-in-law had passed, I felt like she came to say goodbye. I knew she was there. (She was in the process of dying the few days before and we were so tired we went home to sleep). I did not have the heart to wake my sleeping husband. I began to doubt myself, as we did not get a call for about two hours. But, when I asked the staff, they said they found her at 3:05 am, but they had to call someone to pronounce her and waited a while because we were in the middle of a snow storm.
Another time, a very good friend had a brother who was dying and even though I had never met him, I knew it was him, this time I had a shadowy visual of him...he gave me a message to give his family. He said, "Tell them, I'm going home". When I told my friend this, she said, "He had been saying that all day. We thought he wanted us to take him home. He meant, he was going... 'home'".

slw321,
Wishful thinking, vivid imaginations coupled with highly emotional natures, impressionable seekers looking for answers and not thinking things through, something along those lines, for most of what I have read or heard.

But I have to temper it and say, I do not know for sure. I have known two real mediums, and dozens of quacks. I have also had "waking dream" images that sure smack of "past life remembrances", even though I am basically skeptical of the whole reincarnation proposition. So what do I do with that? I have to remain open to the possibility that I'm wrong.

But, I think most NDE recipients on this website would, like me, say that their NDE was a "defining experience" in terms of their view of life and reality. And I experienced nothing that supports spiritism (in the personal sense), past lives, spirit guides, and the like. These seem to me to be imaginative creations that fulfill an emotional necessity.

I don't know how these communications occur.
I know I had a very dramatic one the night my closest sister died. This one I will not share, as it is very private.
But, I also remember sitting at the funeral of my closest aunt, my dad's sister, she was 93, a few days before her death...always a cool lady. But as we sat in the church at her funeral... I felt as if she, my mom, my sister, grandmother and several aunts came through the pews..as if they were smiling and happy and kissing people as they flew by. It was a joy-filled feeling. A celebration. A Reunion. My cousin, Kathryn, later asked if anyone felt something similar. So, I know I did not imagine this.

Interesting accounts, ano1. You are certainly highly sensitive to the inner currents.

You made an interesting comment earlier, about not needing a body. Did that feeling persist, and do you still feel that way?

I have been talking to a friend lately about something similar that I sense from many if not most people. The wish to not be here, a reluctance to fully commit to their life on this planet. It's been many years, but I recall feeling it in the past. My son had it in spades, until fairly recently. I used to see it as a personality flaw or issue. But now I see it as an inherent characteristic of the human being, the human consciousness. It is not very committed to the body, and is ready to "evacuate the premises" on a moment's notice!

Precaud wrote:But I have to temper it and say, I do not know for sure.

The more I read and study these experiences and ideas, the less certain I am of any firm conclusions (for example how long someone hangs around).

I started reading these accounts and trying to connect the dots with other stories and ideas from such sources as Cayce and Monroe (among others). I am persuaded that there are connecting threads - but very elusive of certainty. As examples, Cayce reported that spirits stayed for some "time" on one plane before moving to another, and then they still left an "imprint" or a shadow. Monroe wrote that some folks become overly attached to the "here-and-now" existence and can't move on. Cayce offered one account where he heard a tapping on the window - opened it, found a rather confused woman who had died some time (weeks, I think) earlier - he told her what had happened and in some sense, helped her move on.

Then I started digging into the "out-of-body experiences" materials to see how these ideas intersect with the NDE accounts (if they do). I became more and more astonished. So much matches. Yet - if you practice out-of-body, I'm not sure what time or even what universe you are even in. And the more you try to prove the experience, the more reality-shifting it becomes. To the point that none of it is real.

And spirit guides? Monroe writes of experiencing entities; years later, he experienced meeting someone that he realized was himself earlier (when he met the entity who he now knew was himself). Who knows? Time becomes very weird and mixed up. Space is transcended in a blink by intention. And our 3D reality turns out to be ... not so real, not so fixed.

The only certainty I have is that many of the ideas we develop and cling to are pretty limited and limiting. I'm thinking that the reality that we experience when we leave our bodies is bigger then any concept of the known universe we can contrive. We are only a blink away from a reality that seems to make our notions of string theory look like child's play (but what do I know). And the neat little boundaries I thought existed - really don't.

Interesting accounts, ano1. You are certainly highly sensitive to the inner currents.

You made an interesting comment earlier, about not needing a body. Did that feeling persist, and do you still feel that way?

I have been talking to a friend lately about something similar that I sense from many if not most people. The wish to not be here, a reluctance to fully commit to their life on this planet. It's been many years, but I recall feeling it in the past. My son had it in spades, until fairly recently. I used to see it as a personality flaw or issue. But now I see it as an inherent characteristic of the human being, the human consciousness. It is not very committed to the body, and is ready to "evacuate the premises" on a moment's notice!

I don't know anything about inner currents. I don't try to read about these things. I don't even like to read other peoples nde accounts. I just have an inner sense that 'all is as it should be'. And, I am loved.

After my nde I was very angry abut having to return. I have worked through that and am now comfortable, but, mentally, still feel as though I am not completely here...even, after forty years. I was a teen when I had my nde, and took a very long time to get to this point.

As for the question of my body. Well, it is needed for living here. I have never traveled out of it since my nde. I don't want to, until I get to go home, when it is time.

People and animals are known to have sympathetic contact with loved ones hundreds, even thousands of miles away. Distance doesn't seem to be a factor on whatever level this messaging takes place.

These things are creepy to some people but they do happen. To me they are awe inspiring.
Twenty years ago my niece had a brain tumor. She lived and still lives 2100 miles away. On the day of her surgery at the time I knew it was to start, I sat down to say a little prayer for a good outcome. As I began to pray, I also, began to visualize the surgeon working. I could visualize a tumor being gently coaxed from the underlying brain tissue, it had tenacles. I remember sitting and sort of watching/seeing/almost participating in, each move. What I thought would be a short prayer lasted quite a long time. When the vision was finished, I was tired but I felt certain that she would be okay. And, she was.
She grew up and went on to achieve a bachelors degree at the age of twenty. She is soon to turn twenty-six.
I think I got to watch. This story, I have only shared once or twice.
You seem to have me chatting it up. Maybe I should shut-up before people think I'm loony. Which, I am not.

ano1 wrote:After my nde I was very angry abut having to return. I have worked through that and am now comfortable, but, mentally, still feel as though I am not completely here...even, after forty years. I was a teen when I had my nde, and took a very long time to get to this point.

As for the question of my body. Well, it is needed for living here. I have never traveled out of it since my nde. I don't want to, until I get to go home, when it is time.

Thanks, I didn't mean to pry, just interested. I also had my NDE as a (late) teen. Teens are generally pretty sensitive about their bodies and having an NDE then can (and did, in my case) result in "body-image" issues that are not normal for that age... not to mention how socially-alienating the experience is. It took me many years to "feel comfortable in my own skin".

It seems none of what we've discussed is helping the OP with his original query, so I'm not sure where else to go with it. Some questions aren't answerable in the form they're asked.

After sharing this series of replies I realize how many colorful experiences I have been given. These are a few. I think as for spirit guides (I don't know the definition) but I do believe the spirit is around us at all times. Sometimes, people are more aware. Or, I think we are given awareness when needed. I do try to pay attention to the spirit.

I too, realize that by sharing these events, some people will be more skeptical. I wish that would not happen.
Why I, or others have these experiences, or awarenessess, I don't know. I do know, they are true.

During my nursing career many interesting things occurred. Especially, in the last four years, before retiring, when I worked night shift in a nursing home. I never knew how spiritual or other worldly, working with old people could be. But, many fascinating things occurred. Maybe partly, the night shift was the catalyst for awareness. People could be somehow connected, and be aware of things even when on other floors. Staff and patients, knew of interesting night shift happenings. Usually, we kept them to ourselves, as the other shifts did not seem to have the same understandings. So many - I don't think I can remember them all.

Precaud wrote:slw321,
Wishful thinking, vivid imaginations coupled with highly emotional natures, impressionable seekers looking for answers and not thinking things through, something along those lines, for most of what I have read or heard.

But I have to temper it and say, I do not know for sure. I have known two real mediums, and dozens of quacks. I have also had "waking dream" images that sure smack of "past life remembrances", even though I am basically skeptical of the whole reincarnation proposition. So what do I do with that? I have to remain open to the possibility that I'm wrong.

But, I think most NDE recipients on this website would, like me, say that their NDE was a "defining experience" in terms of their view of life and reality. And I experienced nothing that supports spiritism (in the personal sense), past lives, spirit guides, and the like. These seem to me to be imaginative creations that fulfill an emotional necessity.

And I have never felt such a need or engaged in such fantasy!

(Well... maybe once or twice...)

What are your thoughts on the NDE Process? Would you say that an NDE isnt at all Spiritual? or what would you define as spiritual?

Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in awhile, you could miss it.

David wrote:What are your thoughts on the NDE Process? Would you say that an NDE isnt at all Spiritual? or what would you define as spiritual?

I think your last question has to come first. What is "spiritual"? For decades I have done my best to avoid using the word, because it is one of those words that we mistakenly use assuming everyone knows what we mean by it, when for most it is just a catch-phrase for "stuff we can't explain but feel like we must attribute a cause to". But we in the west don't have a vocabulary for things on the inside, so we're stuck with these big, generalized notions, just as with God and Love.

Other things to consider are, my upbringing was very Christian (Missouri Synod Lutheran - second only to the Southern Baptists in strictness), my NDE came shortly before my 19th birthday, so my perspective on things wasn't very mature before it happened, and my understanding of things was still very "siloed" (the modern term for data that is, in reality, interrelated but is kept separate by external factors). For example, my upbringing insisted that everything "spiritual" was Christian-religious, and anything outside of that was the work of the devil. But there was this whole other group of experiences, psychic phenomena, voices, OOBE, vivid waking dreams, etc. that I had but had no idea how to understand or what to think of them. Nobody was talking about them. Yet these things were in fact very spiritual but were siloed by the prevailing structure in which I lived.

So along comes an experience where, for what felt like a very long time, I experienced my self as something completely independent of my body. Even though I had previous OOBE's, they were more "imaginary" in nature (ex: lying in bed, blowing "smoke rings" out the window, and propelling myself like a rocket through them; or dissociating to the extent that I left my body while my dad beat the living cr@p out of me). Those were like dress rehearsals for the real thing. But the NDE was not imagined. My "sense of self", the "I", was undeniably something loosely attached to but independent of the body.

Noone had ever told me that was the case. Nobody ever told me "your body locates you in space/time but it is not you".

Then, one by one, sensory inputs faded and dropped away. All that remained was this "sense of self", which I now call consciousness, and in the most basic sense is "who" I am. I am a being of consciousness, inhabiting a body which delivers worlds of impressions to me through the various sensory inputs it is sensitive to. That is the State of the Union, so to speak, on the most basic, personal level.

But it is not a permanent Union. That was brought home by further NDE developments, where things "turned inside out" and I basically had no choice but to let go of this seemingly precious sense of self, and the mind that came along with it, and surrender them to a greater radiant Being, to which I felt I belonged, and to which it was the greatest gift to finally return to. Home at last. Once I "sensed" what was going on, I gave into it 100%. I will gladly give up my independent self to be a part of this Being. That is how it felt.

This is the more purely "spiritual" aspect of the event. One could say, at that point, the questions shifts from "WHO am I?" to "WHAT am I?", and "WHAT are WE?" and "WHAT is IT?". Because I am convince that this is the origin or our oneness with each other. Our "spiritual origin". One doesn't really enter the "spiritual" until one gives up the preoccupation with the concept of the personal self.

So, to get back to the question... I would say an NDE is LARGELY spiritual. And further, that it can help us understand, perhaps even is necessary to understand, the very tangible nature of "spirit", the relationship of our "I-ness" to it, and how our Self is "of the same substance" as spirit. So-called spirit HAS substance, it is just a finer, rarer substance that permeates, co-locates, interpenetrates with the body.

And now that I know these things, i.e. have experienced them for myself, that is my main objection to the word spiritual. It's a funny word to use for something that is right-here-right-now-every-moment.

What a fascinating discussion! I want to thank ano1 and Precaud for sharing your experiences and thoughts. I can feel the profound wisdom and humility in your words, this is a joy to read!

slw321 wrote:Regarding this fascinating subject, I would like to pose a question to those who have had this experience, as I have not had one myself. If, as Precaud states, once one has crossed the "point of no return", a merge occurs and all sense of self is lost, then this would invalidate all after-death communication and a great amount of paranormal phenomena. I do not in the least see how the two ideas are even remotely compatible. So, my question is: If a sense of self and knowledge of who one is or was on Earth completely disappears, how is it possible for the deceased to communicate with the living and how is it possible for those crossing over to meet deceased loved ones, if they have "merged" and cease to exist in any form?

Regarding this question, I wonder whether the complete merging with the Light or Love or Consciousness and the losing of all perceptions of a self does not necessarily have to be permanent? Maybe when a need in the physical world arises (a grieving relative needs help or comfort, for example) the former earth self can reappear to provide guidance. Also, we mustn't forget that it has been reported numerous times that "time does not exist", so the theory that a person in spirit completely disappears after a certain amount of earth time (3 days or whatever) may not align with what happens to the spirit self.

Hi Martina, thanks for bringing up this topic, which I had not read through yet.

Martina wrote:
Regarding this question, I wonder whether the complete merging with the Light or Love or Consciousness and the losing of all perceptions of a self does not necessarily have to be permanent? Maybe when a need in the physical world arises (a grieving relative needs help or comfort, for example) the former earth self can reappear to provide guidance. Also, we mustn't forget that it has been reported numerous times that "time does not exist", so the theory that a person in spirit completely disappears after a certain amount of earth time (3 days or whatever) may not align with what happens to the spirit self.

Having been involved in bereavement support for many years, I find this is an extremely sensitive topic.

Based on my own experience wih OBEs in particular, we do not disappear into undistinguished nothingness when we die, but we simply reawaken to who we really are, our core identity undamaged and unharmed, our relationships with our incarnate and disincarnate loved ones strong and unharmed, and even more powerful and loving than they ever were during this physical life. Based on my own experience and that of friends and relatives I have discussed the matter with, when we die we tend to take on the appearance we and our loved ones feel most comfortable with, but our identity is there as it had always been, simply enriched as a result of our creative physical lives.

I have just read through your wonderful dancing OBEs (http://www.oberf.org/martina_r_sobe.htm) and I find they are a great example of how we can feel when our consciousness merges with what we have been taught is “separate” from us. But the physical sense of separateness need not be a synonym for personal identity, which I am quite sure is our core essence, irrespective of being temporarily immersed in space and time. Your “telescope” vision seems to suggest once again that there is a Bigger Picture we are mostly unaware of on this physical plane, but once again I have found that this Bigger Picture need not gobble up our personal identity, but just allow it to shine more, as it is no longer distracted by the ego-related fear-based and scarcity-based notions we are taught during our physical lives.

To answer Chuck’s question about spirit guides and NDEs, which has been extended to OBEs, during my OBEs I have interacted with “deceased” loved ones, but also with “living” loved ones, with angel-like beings wearing a physical-like vehicle or appearing as a pure source of unconditional love that had a magnetic effect on me. I have also once had the feeling of sort of merging with a blissful environment where I knew my deceased grandmother now “lived”, which had the effect of scaring me to start with, as I felt suddenly lost in it. But I was told that I could go to that “place” whenever I wished and it was my responsibility to provide evidence that that “place” out of space and time, where our loved ones reside with their core personal identity whole and undamaged, indeed exists.

I have found that spirit guides were often involved behind the scenes when some of my most extraordinary experiences occurred, and one of the few times one came forward in one of my OBES, in my case as a source of magnetic and unconditional love, it was in order to distract me from something unpleasant I was trying to “sort out” in my physical life and remind me of all the pleasant and wonderful aspects of that situation, which were shown to me during the OBE as they appeared on a non-physical level.

One of my favourite examples of a spirit guide interacting with a NDEr is the one reported by Dannion Brinkly in his first NDE, when on September 17, 1975, he was talking on the phone during a thunderstorm and a bolt of lightning hit the phone line, sending thousands of volts of electricity into his head and down his body, throwing him several feet into the air, after which he died. When Dannion revived in the morgue after twenty-eight minutes, he had an incredible NDE to report. Speaking about one of the disincarnate Beings who had been with him during his NDE, in Dannion’s words:

«As these visions ended, I had the amazing realization that these Beings were desperately trying to help us, not because we were such good guys, but because without us advancing spiritually here on earth, they could not become successful in their world. "You humans are truly the heroes," a Being told me. "Those who go to earth are heroes and heroines, because you are doing something that no other spiritual beings have the courage to do. You have gone to earth to co-create with God».

I may just add that the reason I love this report so much is that it shows how those we call Guides need not be in a Higher position than we are, simply because we are temporarily unaware of who we really are: this story resonates with my feeling that we are all in this together, not as a form of “lesson” or in order to pay off a karma-related debt, but to create a fuller, richer and more meaningful reality than we would know and understand in the blissful and heavenly place we are shown in NDEs.

slw321 wrote:Regarding this fascinating subject, I would like to pose a question to those who have had this experience, as I have not had one myself. If, as Precaud states, once one has crossed the "point of no return", a merge occurs and all sense of self is lost, then this would invalidate all after-death communication and a great amount of paranormal phenomena. I do not in the least see how the two ideas are even remotely compatible. So, my question is: If a sense of self and knowledge of who one is or was on Earth completely disappears, how is it possible for the deceased to communicate with the living and how is it possible for those crossing over to meet deceased loved ones, if they have "merged" and cease to exist in any form?

Regarding this question, I wonder whether the complete merging with the Light or Love or Consciousness and the losing of all perceptions of a self does not necessarily have to be permanent? Maybe when a need in the physical world arises (a grieving relative needs help or comfort, for example) the former earth self can reappear to provide guidance. Also, we mustn't forget that it has been reported numerous times that "time does not exist", so the theory that a person in spirit completely disappears after a certain amount of earth time (3 days or whatever) may not align with what happens to the spirit self.

Hi Martina,
This is a very interesting question you raise. I'm occupied with earthly matters right now but will add my perspective on it this weekend.
Cheers.

So it seems both can be true at the same time, merging with the Light and retaining a sense of self.

Perhaps. I remain skeptical. An awful lot of "English-speaking conversation" going on within him in the heat of the moment. Far too slow for an emergency. I also find it interesting that, moments after becoming conscious again, almost the first thing he does is, he lies to his friends. Huh? So this is what a direct experience of The Light moves him to do? No offense to Andy, but perhaps dishonesty is a persistent character issue with him. Perhaps he is very comfortable embellishing his experience to be what he wants it to be, or to manage other's perception of him.

I have a friend I've known for some 25 years who is like that. Fabricates stories at the drop of a hat. Reality is what she can convince others of. And unless you express doubt and ask about it, she moves on like it was completely true and is a totally OK thing to do. If you call her on it, she'll say she was just "testing you". I'm not a fan of this sort of "flexible reality".

PS - I don't want too sound harsh toward Andy, or my friend; I was dishonest like that when I was a kid. I frequently "dressed up" things that happened to make them sound more fantastic, and had a set of standard lies that I pulled out when I felt insecure or small. A common one was that I traveled to Italy as a young child, age 1-1/2. That was my cover; I was too young to remember anything about it. And I never got caught. And after a few times getting away with it, my conscience no longer even bothered me doing it. Just another way that we lose touch with our Essence and have to work to recover it later. Sigh.

So it seems both can be true at the same time, merging with the Light and retaining a sense of self.

Hi, Martina. Thanks for providing this link. There is one thing that captured my attention about Andy's experience and that is the sentence:

The Light has played a devious trick on me

Even though I have never had a regular NDE, in one experience I recently referred to (http://www.oberf.org/dani_g_other.htm) in this topic http://nderf.me/post6337.html#p6337 I clearly felt I had been "tricked into this life", and whenever I re-read through the experience I get the same feeling over and over again. It is difficult to believe we truly have loving Guides, when we are facing earthly struggles, such as the one I was going through at that time and which eventually had very unpleasant effects on my physical health.

Speaking about lying or not saying the truth, the only people I regularly and masochistically report OBEs, ADCs or other "strange" experiences to are my husband and son, but it is to my detriment, as they hardly listen to 10% of what I say. So what's the point? one would wonder! With my family members it is even more difficult not to lie, especially when it comes to ADCs involving my dad. I have to be extremely careful not to hurt their feelings, as each of us develops their own personal perspective about death, especially the death of a very close loved one.

But all in all I feel there must be a very serious reason for feeling tricked into a situation where we need to lie, and I don't feel NDEs are essential in order to get in touch with Spiritual Guidance. Maybe NDEs and other remarkable experiences are there as a reminder that we do not belong to this physical reality and we do indeed have a choice about how we react to and relate with everyday challenges. Just a thought.

So it seems both can be true at the same time, merging with the Light and retaining a sense of self.

Perhaps. I remain skeptical. An awful lot of "English-speaking conversation" going on within him in the heat of the moment. Far too slow for an emergency. I also find it interesting that, moments after becoming conscious again, almost the first thing he does is, he lies to his friends. Huh? So this is what a direct experience of The Light moves him to do? No offense to Andy, but perhaps dishonesty is a persistent character issue with him. Perhaps he is very comfortable embellishing his experience to be what he wants it to be, or to manage other's perception of him.

Hi Precaud here is another one:

"I was still me, I had memories and identity, but I was not in this world, nor was in a body. My mind was "merged" with the universe"

In fact I have read this in quite a number of nde's - the experience of merging, becoming one with all that exists, yet keeping a sense of self. To me it seems it's not either/or, it seems to be both at the same time.

But all in all I feel there must be a very serious reason for feeling tricked into a situation where we need to lie, and I don't feel NDEs are essential in order to get in touch with Spiritual Guidance. Maybe NDEs and other remarkable experiences are there as a reminder that we do not belong to this physical reality and we do indeed have a choice about how we react to and relate with everyday challenges. Just a thought.

I was wondering today if they might be induced by spirits on the other side to be able to provide more direct guidance to a person that is straying too far from their life plan? Crazy idea?

In fact I have read this in quite a number of nde's - the experience of merging, becoming one with all that exists, yet keeping a sense of self. To me it seems it's not either/or, it seems to be both at the same time.

Hi Martina,
Finally, an honest NDE'er . We knew they existed!

Actually, in Mark_J's NDE he never left the "personal" realm, he never encountered the Light being or entered what I would call the "spiritual" realm. He met an "other", a guide as it were, but his personal identity was never threatened. Which tells me, he was in no danger of actually dying. otherwise it would have progressed beyond person-centered content, and it didn't.

Martina wrote:
I was wondering today if they might be induced by spirits on the other side to be able to provide more direct guidance to a person that is straying too far from their life plan? Crazy idea?

Hi, Martina. I find this whole topic fascinating, and hope to get some time by the end of this week to carefully read through the post-NDE comments of those who have kindly taken part in this exchange.

But I’d like to at least offer some feedback to your question. Based on NDE literature, one of the most life changing notions experiencers seem to come back with is the notion that they have experienced a loving non-judgemental essence/source/home we belong to and which they are sad to leave.

As far as we know, many flatliners do not remember a NDE but this need not mean they have not experienced one and processed it at an unconscious level, just as those who cannot remember their dreams in the morning. Other NDErs state they recollect their experience, or whatever is left of it, sometime after the event and not necessarily all at once.

NDEs seem to occur to all sorts of people, irrespective of how they are leading their lives. In particular, there is a substantial body of research concerning children’s NDE, thanks to the work started by Dr. Melvin Morse.

However, I need to base my own opinion on my personal experience, which has also a lot to do with professional mediumship and bereavement support, fields which have led me to investigate the matter from my own unique perspective, which need not be in line with that of others.

Irrespective of this, I guess there is consensus about the fact that no NDErs can account for reaching a point of no return, even though they certainly get to experience non-judgmental love, which seems to cause notions such as deeming people dishonest or being led astray from one’s life plan somewhat irrelevant to the loving non-judgemental essence they have had the chance to blend with.

Regarding the notion of personal identity which has been often raised in this topic, I have come to the conclusion that personal identity and merging with the loving non-judgmental essence (personal vs impersonal) are not necessarily incompatible, and that the whole notion of guides being wiser or superior may just be a human ego-based judgemental way of filtering the notion that these other beings are not involved in our everyday struggles and see and share things from a different angle.

One last comment about the idea of merging with oneness and losing one’s identity: as everyone here has hinted, these are just speculations, but in the light of the various philosophies, I personally do not see much difference between this theory and that of annihilation.

Betty Eadie’s NDE account in her first book “Embraced by the light” dwells on this topic when she remembers being part of creation: she states she remembered taking part in the creation of the earth along with all people as spirits in the pre-mortal world and being thrilled to be part of it, and how God was filled with absolute love for “each one of us”.

Betty Eadie, as everyone else, did not reach a point of no return, and we don’t even know whether she was clinically dead at the time of her NDE, but in the light of the years of depression she faced as a result of this experience, owing to the nostalgic longing for it, I find her account very thought provoking, as well as being one more example of how recollection of extraordinary events can be partially filtered through our earthly brain and cultural prejudices, despite the fact that many of Betty’s were wiped out for good.

Giulia wrote:
Regarding the notion of personal identity which has been often raised in this topic, I have come to the conclusion that personal identity and merging with the loving non-judgmental essence (personal vs impersonal) are not necessarily incompatible, and that the whole notion of guides being wiser or superior may just be a human ego-based judgemental way of filtering the notion that these other beings are not involved in our everyday struggles and see and share things from a different angle.

Adding to this, these "superior guides" are not as all-knowing as we project onto them, and that they are the creations of our own personal necessity and ability to comprehend in that moment. For example, in Mark_J's NDE referenced above, his "guide" was giving him "should I stay or should I go" choices and seemed to be oblivious to the fact that the OOB portion of his experience was about to come to an end. Ooops. The "wise" guide vanishes.

I'm very much in John the Baptist's camp when it comes to inner guides and spirits: "Test the spirits, so you know from whence they come."

It seems to be important for every person to establish a rapport with an "Inner Teacher" or "Inner Guide". But this appears to be a stage along the path, not the end goal. It builds a necessary "center of intelligence" that is impartial to the personal ego, and gradually over time becomes our center of gravity. "Essence" is still a very personal thing; it is not the same for everyone.

Giulia wrote:
One last comment about the idea of merging with oneness and losing one’s identity: as everyone here has hinted, these are just speculations, but in the light of the various philosophies, I personally do not see much difference between this theory and that of annihilation.

Precaud wrote:
Adding to this, these "superior guides" are not as all-knowing as we project onto them, and that they are the creations of our own personal necessity and ability to comprehend in that moment. For example, in Mark_J's NDE referenced above, his "guide" was giving him "should I stay or should I go" choices and seemed to be oblivious to the fact that the OOB portion of his experience was about to come to an end. Ooops. The "wise" guide vanishes.

I can't see this. Mark decides that he wants to go back and immediately finds himself back in his body.

Mark also doesn't label this being. He just calls them "the other" or "the voice".

Martina wrote:I can't see this. Mark decides that he wants to go back and immediately finds himself back in his body.

Actually, if you read it carefully, he asks his "guide" a question, but it is not answered. His words were "apparently I had decided"... that's quite different than "I decided". It's a confused section of dialog there; the decision was made for him, by whom or what, we do not know, but articulated as if he had done it without having actually done it.

I think we might be overthinking this a bit.
Your thumb is part of your body, it is your body, it is one with your body.
Yet it is clearly distinct from other body parts, it has important functions, and it has its clear limits.

No offense, but that analogy doesn't hold. Your thumb is not capable of its own self-awareness or acting entirely on its own and in its own interest. But the personal ego is, and does on a regular basis.

I think it's important when talking about these things to be as precise as possible. This is relatively uncharted territory (at least in the West). If we all had a common vocabulary with agreed-upon meanings it would be much easier.

Nor do I see that we are "overthinking it." This whole matter of Identification is a big deal in many circles concerned about the health and development of humans. Because it is motivated by dissatisfaction with oneself, orchestrating a change of identity of any kind is generally a slow and often painful process. This is the context in which a spirit guide would be sought; if things were going "just fine" there would be no need. It may very well be that recipients of OOBE and NDE have an easier time with it conceptually.

Precaud wrote:This is relatively uncharted territory (at least in the West). If we all had a common vocabulary with agreed-upon meanings it would be much easier.

As a translator, I must wholeheartedly agree with you that it is very frustrating to try and use words, especially when speculating about a relatively uncharted territory.

I was referring to the “post-merger” speculations that have been referred to here and in particular to slw321’s post wondering whether “all sense of self is lost”. This is what I would personally deem a form of “annihilation”, in the light of my own personal experience, where NDE-like knowings, OBEs, ADCs and mediumistic contact have always resulted in the energising notion that we all have a unique personal identity but at the same time are not really ever separate from each other, the universe, our planet and other planets, nature, animals and human beings, whether incarnate or disincarnate, awake or asleep, in sickness and in health.

In the light of all this, I find the thumb/body analogy a really interesting one. We are daily confronted with diseases where a part of our body threatens the wellbeing of the rest of it, and autoimmune syndromes come in handy as a perfect example.

My feeling, once again, is that we are all in this together, that linear time is a temporary notion along with many other strictly physical peculiarities, and that there needn't be incompatibility between being our unique selves and being One with whatever we call the Universe/God/Creation. In fact I suspect that both Guides and our unique Selves are actively part of the ongoing creation process, that nothing is ever lost and that NDEs are just a reminder of this.

Thanks for your explanation, Giulia. I wanted to be sure I understood correctly what "annihilation" referred to.

I think this clarifies well the difference in our points of view. But explaining it in detail is going to take this thread far off course from its original theme of "Spirit Guides and NDE". I'm wondering if we should let this one stand as it is, and start a new one? What do you think?

I dont always have a guide in view...but i know tney are there all the same! Just to keep an eye...in the background. They may not and do not wish to interfere. This is our life and they love us too much to take something away from us.

There are times...very very few...when i have suddenly become enveloped in protection.... there are times when they will direct me to stay within the field they have created for me ...for my safety... or to direct me a certain direction but otherwise they tend to be onlookers.

I think i gave mine a heart attack a few times with my acts...oh well... i gave myself heart attacks too!

I for one, have actually seen Spirit Guides, or simply Guides. Without going into great detail, I once found myself surrounded by a group of Guides who accompanied me to another plane to visit a Loved One who had crossed and who was in a sort of holding pattern, if that makes sense to anyone here. Once at our destination the Guides disappeared and left me to interact with my Loved One.

What is a Shih Tzu? "A dash of Lion, several teaspoons of Rabbit, a couple ounces of old Chinese men, a bit of Beggar,
a tablespoon of Monkey, one part Baby Seal, and a dash of Teddy Bear."
~ James E. Mumford

ZenTsu i can agree with you. It was a chap i was close to for a while who alerted me to the stages or multi dimensions past our astral...cause i had no close one dead so i had no recall at that stage to help me distinguish...and there are no signposts or explanations given as to where the devil you are! I was thinking of buying a piece of land and the guy knew. After close consideration i changed my mind...but said nothing because the topic didnt come up. One day/night i saw him in astral and he said he had just come back from visiting his dad (dead in this one of course) and had talked to him about my interest to buy and his advice was that the piece was not for me. Of course i had determined that but as i said...he had not known of the decision. Next day i told him of his visit to his father....in this life...gets so confusing!! Because i thought he would appreciate knowing he does go to his father. But it helped me distinguish something also.

When eventually i had someone to go visit there.... i went alone. I got agreement from my guide to let me go and not to be followed. Why i dont know. I just recall explicidly getting that agreement frim him.

i know we can go there...but i am not sure they can come down to our astral. Depends if they have the gift of inter dimension travel i suspect....not sure. There was an interesting chat that was blocked to prevent me learning but it seemed to be a massive hassle for them and only possible in certain situations.

Mostly i think we go to them and we go in organised groups or with a guide. It seems its all organised well beforehand. And believe me they know where we are always and what we are doing....no matter where we are...alive or alsleep...travelling ...we are kept in sight.

And here i need to say that the higher light being is not there...that that is a staging area?...transition place? Maybe to give the incarnated personality time to adjust? There is still a distiction between the incarnated person i knew and the real light being above the incarnated personality. Our real self is yet elsewhere....Layers! Could it be each body composing our astral body surrounding this ohysical one, has its own area? For all i know it could be each cell we have has its own. Certainly each cell we have is individually intelligent...science has already proven that. So is it a distinct being that groups to form us and disperses back to wait for next time its needed to group? That would go a way to explain why memory bleeds from previous incarnations since the cells carry the memory.

As a separate btw.... our guides also appear physically. In fact at dangerous places or times they group and all come to create a crowd.

To this day i suspect i was stupid and careless and got in a car with someone i didnt know who beetled off to some nature reserve. He parked the car and i suddenly knew i may have a problem...idiot 20 year old me!.... he had expected the area to be deserted but i have never seen so much traffic! He waited and waited and the cars kept whizzing by bith sides of the road. He gave up and drove me back. Inkept talking calming about nothing.

Once i saw my main guide watching me from a distance in a bookshop.....recognised him from astral and decided to follow him.... lost sight of him and i felt i needed to stop. Fun was over!

Many many times i know they band around...then i know there is a difficult patch coming up and its their sign they are with me. Just to encourage me on....they never do anything. When i see them my stomach drops to the bottom of my feet because i know its gonna be difficult!

My sons guide was there at his birth. She let on with a comment as i was being wheeled out the theatre.

Hi Visitor. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As far as I am aware - it is easier for us to visit them. They can and do meet us halfway of course as well but it takes greater energy for them to come to us. I have had a great variety of experiences as well as visitations (in different forms) all of my life. It takes a great deal to impress me these days. That being said I must tell you that the things my dear Father has done in Spirit, have amazed even me! My Father has come through in extraordinary ways that never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined. For example - he has actually manifested, something which I had never quite experienced that way. Yes, I was wide awake, outside in broad daylight when I saw a literally transparent version of my Father behind the wheel of his vehicle. He has also done physical things such as closing doors and moving objects (right in front of me), as well as slamming a cabinet door. THAT takes an immense amount of energy. But, leave it to my Father and given the man he was here on this plane I am actually not all that surprised....

What is a Shih Tzu? "A dash of Lion, several teaspoons of Rabbit, a couple ounces of old Chinese men, a bit of Beggar,
a tablespoon of Monkey, one part Baby Seal, and a dash of Teddy Bear."
~ James E. Mumford

Hello Chuck and sorry for the delayed response. Spirit guides are an interesting concept, when I was active in several coven groups and had friendships with psychics they seemed to have spirit guides. As for me, well I felt the spiritual forces during rituals but never really actively sought a spirit guide because of my background. When I briefly died I did have 12 spiritual entities that surrounded me and their mission seemed to comfort me, show love for me and help me adjust to my surroundings. These wonderful beautiful entities were nothing like the spirit guides I felt during circle casting rituals when I was alive, those things seemed more cold and reserved, but the entities that met me on the other side when I died did seem to prepare me for the arrival of a great King that wanted to see me. So in a sense I would say that they were my spirit guides during that critical process of my time. You really pose an interesting question, if one of my witch friends were to pass away would they see the spirit guide they identified with when they were alive? I really don't know but would love to find out? Thanks for your question and hope I helped out friend!

chucktrue wrote:Something occurs to me.....When I read stories of NDE's, no one ever mentions "seeing" a spirit guide. If these guides are always with us why are they not seen? Just curious.

Great question! The answer may or may not be what you want to hear. Will explain this simply.
We all have guides. Those guides are an extension of you. More or less like having a "phone home" or your higher self is the extension to the origination. Once you pass the feeling of completeness and fulfilment is a feeling. LOl... and Ano1 thank you! All information is there, the question is not formed till after the information is recieved.