Bad? - Texas CWP holder gunned down by undercover New Orleans Police

This is a discussion on Bad? - Texas CWP holder gunned down by undercover New Orleans Police within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; We're hearing lots of speculation down here on this one. The deceased came into town on New Year's Eve to visit relatives and ends up ...

Bad? - Texas CWP holder gunned down by undercover New Orleans Police

We're hearing lots of speculation down here on this one. The deceased came into town on New Year's Eve to visit relatives and ends up dead. Police were looking for a suspect in a reported shooting outside a night club. An undercover narcotics unit working a plain clothes decoy detail was diverted to the area and found a car matching the description of the one they were looking for with a man sitting inside in front of a residence. Relatives are saying that the Texas CWP holder was sitting in the car waiting for a relative to come out of his grandmother's house when police arrived in two unmarked vehicles with a total of nine people inside. Police claim the man shot at them through the rear window of his vehicle as they were getting out of their cars and proceeded to unload on him. There are a bunch of conflicting stories and it was announced today that the FBI has decided to investigate the case.

Seven New Orleans police officers fired their weapons at a 22-year-old man who was killed early Thursday while sitting in a car outside his grandmother's house, Superintendent Warren Riley said Saturday.

The seven were among nine officers reassigned in the wake of the fatal shooting.

Riley said Adolph Grimes III sparked a "gunbattle" with officers when he fired at an unmarked police vehicle that pulled up next to his car. The officers, who were involved in undercover patrols, were wearing street clothes.

Grimes died in the shooting near North Claiborne Avenue and Gov. Nicholls Street.

Orleans Parish Coroner Frank Minyard said Grimes was struck by 14 bullets, with two hitting him in the front torso. The other 12 wounds were in his lower back and legs, Minyard said Friday.

At a news conference Saturday, Riley disputed that characterization, saying Grimes was hit in the front, on the side under the arm and "near the back." Although he said "numerous" rounds were fired, Riley said he could not give an exact number.

Grimes' relatives have questioned police accounts of the shooting, with several saying he had no reason to shoot at police. The Brother Martin High School graduate has lived in Houston, where he worked as a cable installer, since Hurricane Katrina, his family said. He was in town to visit family.

Adolph Grimes Jr. said he has asked the FBI to investigate his son's shooting. An FBI spokeswoman said Friday that the agency has not decided whether to open an investigation.

--- Officers reassigned ---

All nine officers involved have been reassigned to desk duty pending the homicide division's investigation of whether the shooting was justified, Riley said. He refused to identify the officers, saying it is "inappropriate" unless the department determines they did something wrong.

The nine officers, part of a 1st District narcotics unit working undercover to target armed robbers, included three women and six men. They were dressed like tourists, and the women would pose as "decoys" -- potential victims -- for robbers, Riley said.

The unit received a report around 2:45 a.m. of a shooting outside Club Fabulous at 810 N. Claiborne Ave., he said.

The officers headed to the club and saw a black vehicle leaving from under the elevated Interstate 10, Riley said. One group of officers went to the club, while another started canvassing the area, coming upon a black Toyota Camry, with Grimes inside, in the 1700 block of Gov. Nicholls Street.

As officers came up beside the car, Grimes fired a shot at them, Riley said. He would not describe the officers' unmarked vehicle, saying it will be used in future undercover operations.

The officers got out of their vehicle, and Grimes exited his car on the passenger side, Riley said.

"A gunbattle or gunfight ensued, which resulted in the death of this young man," Riley said.

Grimes pointed his gun at officers, Riley said, but he could not say whether he fired more than once.

Riley said police are investigating what the officers said as they left their vehicle. "I don't know if he knew they were police when the first shot was fired," he said.

Grimes' body was found around the corner, about 40 paces away, in front of a house facing North Claiborne Avenue.

Although Riley said two groups of officers in two unmarked cars were involved, he did not say when the second vehicle arrived.

--- Details conflict ---

An attorney for the officers provided slightly different details. Eric Hessler, an attorney for the Fraternal Order of Police and several of the reassigned officers, said the officers pulled up to Grimes' car in two unmarked vehicles and turned on blue flashing lights on their dashboards.

The officers saw Grimes pull a gun, Hessler said. Then Grimes fired a shot through the rear window of his car, he said.

"Obviously, they are trained to defend themselves," Hessler said. "The one thing all seven of these officers had in common is that they all felt threatened," he said. "All seven, unequivocally, fired several rounds."

Hessler said the officers reported that Grimes left his vehicle and, carrying his gun, ran away from one group of officers and toward the other group. "The way it was described to me, quite honestly, I'm surprised he wasn't hit more," Hessler said.

Hessler, a former NOPD officer, said officers "quite literally took the gun from his hands" after he fell to the pavement.

Riley said a gun was found on Grimes but would not specify where.

The officers have spoken to police investigators but, as of Saturday night, had not given formal taped statements, Hessler said.

Grimes' father acknowledged that his son owned a 9 mm handgun but said he had a Texas permit for it.

--- Gun had been fired ---

The condition of Grimes' gun shows it was fired, Riley said, but he could not say whether any of the shell casings collected by police at the scene matched the gun. He declined to say whether police had performed a gunpowder residue test on Grimes, saying that will "come out as the investigation continues."

Grimes' brother-in-law said Friday that he had fired the gun into the ground on the West Bank at midnight in celebration of the new year. Grimes never fired his own gun, he said.

Grimes, the father of an 18-month-old son, had no criminal record, several family members said. Searches of online criminal databases support that claim.

Adolph Grimes Jr. said several details of the police account did not make sense to him. His son had arrived in New Orleans from Houston just before midnight, welcoming the new year at a relative's house on the West Bank.

Grimes ended up at his grandmother's house in the 1700 block of Gov. Nicholls Street about 2 a.m., his family said. He took a bath and just before 3 a.m. went outside to his car, waiting for a relative. The two men planned to head to an Uptown bar.

"He didn't jump out of the passenger side, the door was open on the driver's side," Grimes' father said. He said the door frame of the vehicle was riddled with bullet holes.

The gun carried by his son was not loaded, Grimes said. "My son never fired the weapon," he said.

Assistant Police Superintendent Marlon Defillo said that on Saturday evening, as crime lab investigators began to "process" the car, they found an assault shotgun in the trunk along with a "high velocity" magazine clip for the 9 mm handgun and shotgun shells.

Grimes said he did not know whether his son owned another weapon, but that if he did, it would be registered.

The president of the Police Association of New Orleans said the group believes the officers acted properly.

"We stand behind their actions and we feel that once the investigation is completed, their actions will be determined to be correct and proper and will fall within departmental guidelines," Capt. Michael Glasser said.

Follow-up stories on New Orleans shooting of Texas CWP holder

EDITORIAL: Shooting demands answers
Sunday, January 04, 2009
New Orleanians have many unanswered questions as to how Adolph Grimes III, a 22-year-old man without a prior criminal record, died in an alleged shootout with police outside his grandmother's house early Jan. 1.

Police said Mr. Grimes ignited what Superintendent Warren Riley called a "gunbattle" with officers by allegedly firing at an unmarked police vehicle that pulled up next to Mr. Grimes' car at about 3 a.m. Thursday. The officers in that vehicle, the superintendent said, were conducting undercover patrols wearing street clothes.

Orleans Parish Coroner Frank Minyard said Mr. Grimes was shot 14 times, including 12 times in the back. Superintendent Riley says several shots hit Mr. Grimes' front. The superintendent said seven officers fired their weapons at Mr. Grimes. Those officers and two other officers at the scene have been reassigned pending an internal investigation by the Police Department.

But at a press briefing Saturday, two full days after the incident, Superintendent Riley declined to answer fundamental questions. He said Mr. Grimes' 9 mm pistol was found "on his person," but he did not identify the exact location. He did not say whether any of the shell casings recovered at the scene came from Mr. Grimes' weapon. He also declined to say whether investigators performed a gunshot powder residue test on Mr. Grimes.

Mr. Grimes' relatives said he owned a handgun, but had no reason to fire at police officers. They said he was working in Houston and was in town to visit family for the New Year's holiday. The family is calling for a federal investigation of his killing, and that seems warranted.

At stake is the citizenry's ability to trust the Police Department at a time when that trust is already low. Only a thorough investigation conducted by an agency outside the Police Department can answer the questions New Orleanians have about how Mr. Grimes became the first homicide of 2009.

FBI to investigate New Year's Day police shooting
by The Times-Picayune
Monday January 05, 2009, 5:38 PM
The FBI on Monday officially opened a civil-rights investigation into the shooting by police of Adolph Grimes III, according to Sheila Thorne, spokeswoman for the agency's New Orleans division.

Agents from the local office consulted with the U.S. Department of Justice and the U.S. Attorney Jim Letten's office in deciding to open the inquiry, Thorne said.

The local bureau had been made aware of the shooting death shortly after the incident. Agents were trying to determine last week whether the incident warrants a federal investigation. The decision was made Monday.

I'm sure there are more details outstanding, but putting myself in his shoes, if I were in a parked car on Claiborne near Esplanade (which is something of a seedy area if I remember right) and 2 unmarked cars blocked me in, followed by nine armed men in street clothes jumping out and rushing me, my first thought would not be "oh, it's the cops here about my mistaken identity!"

If my car was off (which I could see if I were waiting for someone to come out of the house), I think my first instinct would be to do exactly what he did - bail out the nearest door and if I see someone raise a gun at me start throwing lead back. Nine on 1 is pretty bad odds, but it beats getting peppered through the windshield. It's too bad this ended with him dead.

"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

I'm usually a staunch supporter of law enforcement but this one stinks to High Heaven. I've got a feeling that a lot of cops are going to be in serious trouble for this unless some as-yet-untold details emerge.

First impression, not good.
It will be interesting to see what the FBI has to say about it.
Yes, NOPD has earned its reputation and its lack of trust from the citizens, but we should keep open minds, as great departments have their bad apples, NOPD probably (somewhere) has some good cops. These could be them.
I am not going to bet my mortgage on that, but it is possible.

If your gonna be playing cop then you better have on vests,this kinda crap gets people killed,they coulda called in a marked unit to make a stop.There are too many undercover cars and a lot with ghost graphics today,they need to be used for undercover only,not used to make stops.This guy thought he was getting jacked and responded

condolences to the guys family, this looks like a very very bad shoot, looks like the guy was just trying to save his marbles, if thats the case then i wish this guys presence would have been heard a little louder if you catch my drift.

U/315KY Concealed Carry InstructorTaser X2/X26 Instructor
"It is the tradition that a Kentuckian never runs. He does not have to…[he] is entitled to stand his ground, and meet any (life-threatening) attack made upon him with a deadly weapon…." Gibson v. KY, 34SW936(Ky.1931)

Even undercover when making a bust need to identify themselves. I mean dang - so what, now I need to ask all the BG's who are in street drag - "yo, before we start capping each other - you gotta badge?"

Let's get real - something didn't go down right. Either this poor kid was more guilty than at first looks - or the cops fell way down on their job. Sounds to me, like the cops messed up.

And one more thing - why would this kid, who holds a CHL from Texas have a weapon on him that "isn't loaded" and "never fired" as attested to by his dad?

Sumthin ain't right.

Last edited by Miggy; January 7th, 2009 at 01:35 AM.
Reason: Language Workaround

Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.See also Sheep

And one more thing - why would this kid, who holds a CHL from Texas have a weapon on him that "isn't loaded" and "never fired" as attested to by his dad?

I was curious about that too. It could be a situation of the dad simply being wrong, or maybe his son told him he only carried it unloaded to pacify an anti-ccw family member. Stranger things have been said in the name of family peace around the holidays.

"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?