Talk: Frank Castle (Earth-616)

Contents

Name change

Where was the name Francis Castiglione revealed? At what point did he start using the name Frank Castle and, most importantly, did he have his name legally changed? If his name was specifically legally changed, then according to naming conventions the correct title of the page is Frank Castle (Earth-616), not Francis Castiglione (Earth-616) (see Luke Cage). -- Supermorff 15:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

All too true. I put what was in the Real Name space in the move tag, so I don't know where it really came from.--Peteparker 05:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

main image

ok guys, can you finally settle on what image you would like to have here? I really don't see the point in having it change three times a day.--edkaufman(talk) 22:48, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy with any of them, and would also like the picture changing to stop. The only reason I changed it the once was because the picture shown was for Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe which doesn't happen in Earth-616. I think the one up should stay because it is the most recent incarnation of Frank.--Thestew45122 22:51, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Sweet Jesus! Can we lock the picture or something?--Thestew45122 23:02, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

The page has been locked down for the moment. I would really like to hear from those involved as to what's going on?--edkaufman(talk) 19:07, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Why not use the Steve Dillon one? The one that's in the redirects page.--Scion of Balance 17:10, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

airborne training is jump school...

you don't learn to fly the plane, you learn to jump out of it. could somebody with the proper info please rewrite the information attached to "expert pilot"? i would do it, but i don't know where he learned to fly.

Not to mention…

…he served for 4 years, in combat, and 8 years total service? When was there time—if it were even a thing for an 11A/11B, 18X, or 0302 to evengo through aviator's flight training—the basic Army aviation course is 43 weeks long, for rotor craft, and the Navy/Marine fixed aviation training totals at 104 weeks, not including ROTC/OCS, any prior enlistment time, Officer Basic to get his butter bar, Officer advanced course when he made Captain... When did he have time for all this extra training and his tours of combat? And, he was supposedly "point man"... for a Marine "Special Operations Unit as a point man"? Setting aside the fact that Infantry officers don't literally take point, being Force Recon adds 3 months in Boot Camp, three months in Basic Infantry Training, 2 months in Advanced Combat Training, 2 months in Basic Reconnaissance Course, 2 months in Scout Sniper Basic Course. Add in transition time between courses and mandatory leave and you're up to over a year of training, pre-combat, if he were just enlisted and not a commissioned officer. Add another year+ of training as a commissioned officer and 2–4 years prior to that in college ROTC or at a 2 or 4-year military academy, another 2 years earning a Master's Degree to make Captain (O3). Then, for all of this extra flight training... 2–3 more years. Then several MONTHS of jump school, jump master school, Air Assault school, diving training... And, he only served from '68–'76? He'd LITERALLY have spent his ENTIRE time in service in training and he'd never have seen any combat. When would he have earned the supposed "Medal of Honor, the Navy Cross, 3 times the Silver Star and Bronze Stars, 4 times the Purple Heart, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom"? And that was all supposedly for his first tour of duty? Not even with the benefit of Super-Soldier Serum would the math work, here.

The Punisher Purgatory

The Purgatory plotline has generally been ignored by subsequent writers, in issue #1 of the "Welcome Back Frank" arc, writer Garth Ennis briefly acknowledges the Purgatory arc, but never explains how or why Frank regained his mortality, it doesn't go into detail at all. In a subsequent Letters column, a fan asked "what does the symbol on the Punisher's head mean?", to which the editor replied "It means 'mistake'." The Purgatory storyline also has it that Frank killed Frank Costa, the head of the mob who killed him family, but he never got the chance to kill him.

The miniseries Revelation (the only other appearance of "Angel Frank").

The monologue at the end of the first issue of Welcome Back, Frank, which explicitly mentions the deal the Council of Thrones offered him at the conclusion of Revelation.

Punisher: I caught a glimpse of heaven once. The angels showed me. The idea was I'd kill for them. Clean up their mistakes on Earth. Eventually redeem myself. Tried it. Didn't like it. Told them where to stick it. So they brought me up to heaven, to see what I'd be missing. A wife. A son. A daughter. I hadn't seen them since they bled out in my arms. Then I was cast down. Back to a world of killers. Rapists. Psychos. Perverts. A brand new evil every minute, spewed out as fast as men can think them up. A world where pitching a criminal dwarf off a skyscraper to tell his fellow scum you're back is a sane and rational act. The angels thought it would be hell for me. But they were wrong.

Olivier's cameos in Nightcrawler Vol. 3, #1-4 (confirmed in a handbook) and the Devil's Advocacy in Fear Itself.

Khonshu: Just look at him, will you. Such style and grace. Wholesale slaughter and not a trace of whining. Brilliant.

Moon Knight: Anoint him then, if you're such a fan.

Khonshu: Alas, it is not to be. He belongs to another. See how he flies his lord's banner. How he appeases his master's appetite. Unlike some others I could mention.

Vietnam retconned

Unfortunately, my knowledge on the Punisher is very limited. However, I remember reading online that Greg Rucka's volume seemingly retconned Frank's origin to a much more modern setting. The current series also appears to support this retcon. Is this correct?--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 02:36, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that was the article. But what I was trying to get to is that this article needs be changed. We are talking about a six-years old retcon that greatly alters the setting of the character's backstory and was never adressed in his article. I could try to do it if there are no volunteers, but I'm not entirely sure how to properly work out the retcon into the established history, having never read a Punisher comic book.--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 10:13, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

There seemed to be some confusion over the retcon in terms of how the appearances had been listed relative to the War in Afghanistan from the MAX series, so I corrected Punisher Vol 9 #4. To clarify, instead of being a veteran of the Vietnam War, Frank's now a veteran of the Gulf War, which we don't yet have an article nor categories for; however, please note that that war took place in Kuwait, notAfghanistan, and is not the same as the Iraq War, which Frank later briefly participated in during Punisher Vol 10 #19-20 as well, though not as a Marine. -- Annabell (talk) 13:18, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

Looks more like a continuity error from Greg Rucka (there was a lot during his run) who had him wearing Desert Storm camouflage. And yet in 2014 in the Thunderbolts storyline (issue #24), Frank makes a reference to river patrol, that it takes him back[1], a real life Vietnam vet made a similar comment in a documentary called Vietnam in HD, "You're expecting to get shot at, at any time and you can't see anything. Because all you see is jungle, you can't see beyond the jungle."HARDAC Android (talk)

In this interview, Rucka notes that altering Frank's origins was a decision carefully discussed between him and editor Stephen Wacker. I'd say Frank's comment in that Thunderbolts issue are more likely to be the continuity error of the two situations, considering it's a team book Frank is part of rather than a book solely devoted to him.The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 01:00, June 19, 2017 (UTC)

So this page is being edited by people who don't know a damn thing about the character, never even picked up one issue... makes sense...Httpwww (talk)

If what you're referring to is the most recent edit warring, the answer is, unfortunately, yes. The page was edited by people who didn't know a damn thig about the character, namely users Brainiac12 and Jacknapier10. These two went around character pages, adding as much information they could find with no regard for the overall quality of the content they added, most definetely without having read the comics about whose stories they wrote. Jacknapier copied information from other sites, and the history summaries added by Brainiac12 were mostly in the vein of "He attempted assassinate Tombstone," dedicating an entire section header for one-sentence paragraphs that didn't carry actual relevant information.

We didn't notice that until after numerous articles were full of all of these sloppy summaries with no actual substance which greatly affected the presentation and quality of the pages. In most cases, we decided to hide the content added by these users. We see no point in keeping stuff like "He helped the construction company Damage Control." or referenced ellipsis which really don't say anything besides telling you in which issues something happened, something which isn't even written in the article.--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:14, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

Citations needed for personal details

We need a citation for his height, because in Punisher War Journal #67 the 6'1 baddie dressed as the Punisher is said to be "well short" of his height.

Also need a citation for his years of service (Gulf War retcon aside), as in Punisher/Captain America he tells Cap he served 6 tours, which would be 6.5 years. It would make sense, the max under each name.

Not that both of these couldn't be rationalized away, but I haven't run across sources for the real numbers yet. KekesSethie (talk) 02:40, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

Fourth of July 1993

While on leave for the Fourth of July 1993

Someone needs to undo that because how does this make any sense? So everything Frank did in the mid and late 70s and all throughout the 80s never happen?? If that's true, then half the page needs to be rewritten. His family was killed in the mid 70s (1976)... but now it's 1993 on the 4th of July??? The only source that's being used for this is from the whole undead angel Punisher events... but I don't that storyline or any of it's events stated anywhere on the page.Stated (talk)

You're still right that the page needs to be rewritten, though, considering Frank's origin has been retconned for a while now so he no longer served in Vietnam.--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 23:12, November 14, 2017 (UTC)

To clarify, per the sliding timescale, the origin has been modernized in recent decades so that Frank served in the USMC during the Gulf War, rather than the Vietnam War, as a result the entire article needs to also be modernized to reflect this; however, the earlier events should still be maintained on a Frank Castle (Earth-616)/Expanded History article that delineates the differences over the years. -- Annabell (talk) 00:15, November 15, 2017 (UTC)

But his backstory didn't change in 1998 when he was an undead angle[2], that's the problem here, because after that storyline was the Welcome Back, Frank storyline from Garth Ennis and others that very clearly state that he was in Vietnam, Frank even mentions those events from 1998[3]. That issue only says 4th of July 1993, it doesn't go into details, that character could be referring to an actual event from 1993, but he doesn't say that it was on leave in central park, in issue #4 there are other characters saying similar things to Frank. it's strange to use source links from Marvel Preview and Punisher Year One that both take place in the 70s and then use a source link that says 1993. Besides, issue #1 from Purgatory states "Years in a jungle".Stated (talk)

Despite the numerous previous accounts that Frank served in Vietnam, it should be taken into consideration that the most recent version of events (as per Greg Rucka's run) has Frank serving in a much more modern era. This page does need an important overhaul, as noted above, to properly reflect the new version and disregard the previous recounts. Also, please refrain from posting links to sites which promote the piracy of comics books.--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 03:01, December 19, 2017 (UTC)