My point is that a sleeveless shirt in Church is not suitable attire for either men or women. Indeed in India I wore a blazer when visiting places of worship, out of respect.

In my experience, people don't wear sleeveless garments to church there. "Short sleeves", yes, but certainly nothing that involve revealing necklines or exposed shoulders. I know of cases where girls buy Western style sleeveless wedding gowns and show up to church only to have the priest or bishop read them the riot act, often in front of all the guests, and refuse to begin the wedding until they are appropriately attired.

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"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

Coming from the SSPX side into Eastern Orthodoxy I want to take the middle ground. I am not going to say that stupid thing that pretentious trads say: "Can you picture the Virgin Mary wearing that?" No, I would like to say, but I can't picture in what you are wearing either so....but I would just consider your neigbour. I do not think it should be a terrible temptation for a normal man as long as we are not talking cleavage, middrift, etc. Something like this would be fine, I think:

I assume it is something similar to that. Trying to be less rigorous it's hard for me, but I am inclined to say I would not be too concerned. The traditional Catholics can be not only so rigorous on the matter but legalistic. Like what I posted is a venial sin. Something showing middrift and cleavage would be a mortal sin. I really think you're fine outside of liturgy, though some of the writings of the early fathers may make you think different like "On The Apparel of Women"http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm by Tertullian

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life." --Gebre Menfes Kidus

I once said to my father, when I was a boy, 'Dad we need a third political party.' He said to me, 'I'll settle for a second.' --Ralph Nader, America's Cato

And the link from Tertullian was meant half as a joke, but of course halfway for your benefit, my lady. Can never go wrong with the fathers, though some of it must be taken in the right spirit. It can be read to the point of hypocritical rigor and scruple against wearing even makeup or putting on earrings. The golden mean is golden though.

Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life." --Gebre Menfes Kidus

I once said to my father, when I was a boy, 'Dad we need a third political party.' He said to me, 'I'll settle for a second.' --Ralph Nader, America's Cato

I do not think it should be a terrible temptation for a normal man as long as we are not talking cleavage, middrift, etc.

Here we go, placing the foibles of some men on all women. You could bring a woman into my presence naked. I would be OK. If most men are honest, arousal which is not temptation, is an irreducibly complex phenomenon. Men who want to pretend to be foreverpotent will exaggerate the effect of the appearance of a woman on their psyche.

Most women are sensible. When in Rome . . . Frankly, when women step outside the norm, it is rarely provocative in an arousing manner but rather in an uncomfortable manner. For example, my once seeing a woman wearing to what amounted to a transparent dress to a DL. I could have told you the cut and color of her underwear. I wasn't aroused, just a little unsure of how to act to mitigate her embarrassment before I told her later of her clothing predicament.

Everyone who was "too shy" to do what I did, I asked some women to talk to her, none were particularly aroused or angry, just wanted to avoid embarrassing her.

I guess it was a dress that didn't look see through up close and when wearing it.

Now, if you take the same situation and place it in place where sex is the reason for being there, a club or whatever. Then it is quite different. But then, it is also NBD cause that is reason why everyone is there.

When in Rome. Guys who are forever tempted will be no matter what you do and in my experience the more society capitulates to that "weakness" the worse it makes the weakness, not better.

Truth. Otherwise, men should never be in sleeveless shirts in public. My brother makes fun of me once for wearing a wifebeater once at home when a friend of his was over. Then again, that could be because there was a hole the size of my stomach in it (pretty big, FYI). Still, sleeves or go home (and put sleeves on).

Would it be immodest to take off one's sweater in the car in the middle of summer (or at least pretty hot) when one is in mixed company and one is wearing a spaghetti strap dress?

God will surely bless you, Anastasia. You think and care more about these details than I do, and if modesty has taken that much root in your soul, it will be reflected outwardly, even on a hot day when you have to take off your sweater lest you faint.

Logged

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

My point is that a sleeveless shirt in Church is not suitable attire for either men or women. Indeed in India I wore a blazer when visiting places of worship, out of respect.

In my experience, people don't wear sleeveless garments to church there. "Short sleeves", yes, but certainly nothing that involve revealing necklines or exposed shoulders. I know of cases where girls buy Western style sleeveless wedding gowns and show up to church only to have the priest or bishop read them the riot act, often in front of all the guests, and refuse to begin the wedding until they are appropriately attired.

In the small OCA church I used to attend, women, particularly old women having hot flashes would wear sleeveless dresses or blouses that exposed their sagging arm muscles. Then they would ceaselessly fan themselves. In spite of it all, we were glad that they made it to church as the church lacked a decent air conditioning system, and that was hard on them.