The Ebionites: True followers of Jesus who converted to Islam

We look today at the Jesus movement in Jerusalem formed by early followers of Christ, and headed by the disciple James. Their understanding of Christianity differed fundamentally from the religion later formulated by Paul, whom they considered to be a false teacher. They had a gospel written in Aramaic which is now lost to us . Modern scholars have described their theology in terms that closely resembles the religion preached by Muhammad (ص).

This group of early Christians, known as The Ebionites (the poor) and sometimes Nazarenes (Some scholars believe the Nazarenes to be a different group from the Ebionites, others maintain they are the same)- were labelled ‘heretics’ and persecuted by the Orthodox church which adopted the teachings and interpretations of their arch rival Paul of Taurus.

According to Biblical scholar Barrie Wilson, the main features of the Ebionite’s theology can be summerised in the following:

Jesus was a created human and not divine

Jesus was a teacher

Jesus was the expected Messiah

The Law of the Torah must be observed

Theirs was the earliest congregation of followers to Jesus, starting from around 30 AD

Several church fathers described how Ebionites rejected The Divinity of Jesus and The Atoning Death of Jesus. According to those church fathers, the Ebionites emphasized the oneness of God and the humanity of Jesus. They considered Paul an apostate of the law who corrupted Jesus’ message.

Church father Irenaeus, wrote in “Against Heresy”:

Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

What is really significant, from the Muslim point of view, is Dr. Barry Wilson suggestion that, the Ebionites survived until the Muslims’ conquest of the Middle East, when they [the Ebionites] were absorbed in Islam.

This can help explain why the Christians of Syria and Egypt were converting to Islam en-mass in the 7th. century AD. It is possible that, people who were in contact with Ebionites or, were Ebionites themselves, recognised as truthful, the revelation of the Quran.

The Quran, with its uncompromising monotheism, its insistence on humanity of Jesus, and rejection of the trinity closely echoed the Ebionites beliefs, and was in complete harmony with what they new about God and Jesus [The only exception is the virgin birth which the Quran confirms and the Ebionites were said -by their opponents -to reject] . They probably recognised Islam as a continuation of the same message of God delivered by Jesus, Moses, Abraham, and the prophets.

Allah describes the reaction of some Christians and Jews in the Quran, chapter 28:

[Quran 28:51] And now verily We have caused the word to reach them, that haply they may give heed.
[28:52] Those unto whom We gave the Scripture before it, they believe in it,
[28:53] And when it is recited unto them, they say: We believe in it. Lo! it is the Truth from our Lord. Lo! even before it we were of those who surrender (unto Him).
[28:54] These will be given their reward twice over, because they are steadfast and repel evil with good, and spend of that wherewith We have provided them,
[28:55] And when they hear vanity they withdraw from it and say: Unto us our works and unto you your works. Peace be unto you! We desire not the ignorant.

There is little doubt that the church in Jerusalem pre-dated the churches established by Paul in Roman cities. There is no doubt that the church members in Jerusalem were the ones who actually saw and heard Jesus directly, unlike Paul, who never met Jesus.

I, therefore, have no doubt that the teachings of the Ebionites on Jesus are closer to the truth.

49 Responses

The book of John has the largest number of evidences for the deity of Jesus. So even if you threw out the writings of Paul, the Bible is still very clear that Jesus is the one true God. Even the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be God.

Furthermore, if we don’t have an infinite payment for our sins, we’re all going to hell. We’ve all broken God’s holy law (the Ten Commandments), and we’ve all sinned against an infinitely holy God. The Bible says the penalty for one lie is eternity in the lake of fire, because we’ve sinned against an infinitely holy God. If God were to just forgive our sins because He felt like it, He would no longer be holy or just. He would be a corrupt, wicked judge.

If God wants to make a way for us to get to heaven, the only way is to provide the infinite payment for our sins Himself, and give it to whom He chooses. It must be a gift, because certainly no one can pay their own infinite penalty.

Do you think it’s possible for Allah to enter into his creation? How are your sins going to be forgiven? If Allah just forgives them for no good reason (or worse yet becuase you’ve bribed him with your good, religious deeds) doesn’t that make him a corrupt judge?

3- Redeemed All/ (Most) Sins by All those who believed in God but lived and died before Jesus and never knew about him?

Also when you say:

If God wants to make a way for us to get to heaven, the only way is to provide the infinite payment for our sins Himself.

How did you know that this is the “only way”? I am asking specifically about the payment for sin by Him
Is this something that God said, or is it an attempt by you or someone else, to find the routes available for people to get to heaven? Does it not strike you as odd that, God, in His infinite Wisdom, Power and Mercy can not find other ways?

1. Yes. Jesus paid for all sins of those who would have faith in Him.
3. Yes. People who lived before Jesus were forgiven in the same way we are. We have faith in the Messiah that came, they had faith in the promised Messiah that was to come.

The only one capable of making infinite payment is God. There are no angels or humans that can make infinite payment. You and I might disagree on what type of payment must be made (the Bible says it had to be blood), but the payment must pay for all our sins, and be of infinite value.

Although I admire your attempt at explaining the doctrine, there are still a few points that need clarifications:

1: By putting faith in Jesus as a precondition for salvation, then obviously his sacrifice did not greatly help those who do not believe he is their Lord and Savior.

It follows that the PRIME precondition by which sin is forgiven is faith in God and not the sacrifice itself.

This, in a way, is very close to the position of Islam, which puts an emphasis on the Believe in God, as the only True God as the Prime precondition for salvation. We obviously differ as to the nature of God, but we are getting closer.

2: If Jesus’ sacrifice payed for ALL the sins of the believers, Why did the Messiah -according to the Gospels-insist on keeping the commandments as the route to Eternal life? The Gospels have told us that Jesus himself ordered adherence to the Law (what you referred to as bribes).

3: If Jesus, as you and the Gospels claim, clearly spelled the doctrine of Salvation, and the reason behind his sacrifice, How can you explain the fact that his disciples were perplexed by his resurrection, and some even had doubts after meeting him? It should have been a forgone conclusion to them that the Messiah would be risen from the dead on the third/ second day.

4: Where in the Gospels, did Jesus say he is going to die for the specific reason of paying for others sins?

5: Since we do not have a record of Moses, Aaron, Job or Adam, professing belief that Jesus would die to atone for their sins, and that he was their Lord and Savior, doesn’t this make you claim about their salvation a bit speculative?

6: As I mentioned in my post, There is evidence that a group of Early Christians who lived in Jerusalem, and were headed by the close disciple, James, did not believe in the doctrine of atonement, and regarded Jesus as human prophet. These men and women were closer to Jesus than you and I, and even closer than St. Paul himself. What make you think that your beliefs are closer to the teachings of the Messiah than theirs?

Note: Scholars generally agree that the Gospel of John was written much later (Earliest estimate about 90 AD i.e. about 60 years after the events), and After the theology of the Pauline Christianity was highly developed. The Nazarenes/ Ebionites, on the other hand, were said to be professing their markedly different beliefs at around 30 AD.

1. First of all, we are unable to put our faith in Jesus, because we are dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1, John 5:24). Can a dead person respond to God’s commands? You have been commanded by Jesus to repent and believe in Him. However, you are unable to do this. You have your reasons, but you couldn’t even if you wanted to. You must be enabled by God Himself to believe in Jesus. Since the possibility of being obedient to the most basic of commands is not possible for us, God grants us that ability as a gift. Those who get to heaven will have nothing to brag about. They won’t be able to say they were smarter or more righteous or more in tune with God or anything. Who can brag about being raised from the dead?

2. You’re mistaken on this point. Jesus never said that anyone must keep the commandments. He said it’s impossible to keep the commandments, and we are saved by believing in Him. The most famous example of this is John 3:16, but there are plenty of examples. We don’t keep the commandments to gain forgiveness; we keep the commandments because we are forgiven.

3. They were terrified that they were next in line for crucifixion, and they were terribly sad that their Lord had died. For whatever reason, they didn’t believe that Jesus was going to rise from the dead, so they were surprised when He did show up. Nevertheless, they all came to believe. Why would you believe a book written hundreds of miles from Jerusalem, centuries later over the testimony of the eye witnesses (a testimony which they sealed with their blood)?

4. Matthew 26:28

5. In Genesis 15:6, it says Abraham believe the LORD. The LORD (written all capital letters in the Old Testament) is the Trinity, which includes Jesus. They didn’t have a complete picture, but they trusted the LORD to forgive their sins.

6. You are mistaken on what James believed. Much of his epistle is describing the characteristics of saving faith. In order for the Ebionites to believe what they believed they have to reject most of the Bible. Why would I care what they think?

You reject Paul’s writings. You reject the book of John. I’m not surprised. I thought Muslims rejected the entire Bible. We can discuss the many evidences for the Bible if you really like, but that really won’t get us anywhere. I would like to know how you plan on getting your sins forgiven, and whether your plan is valid.

Why doesn’t Jesus’ sacrifice atone for the sins of unbelievers? Because God hasn’t given it to them.

1- The same idea that belief is subject to the Will of God is common to both of us. It is clearly stated in the Quran, that guidance can only be given by God. The difficulty for you here, is that, if Jesus was God, then his will can not be countered. So was Jesus asking people to repent and at the same time not allowing them to do so. ? My belief is that Jesus was sent by God to deliver God’s message to people. Jesus had no control over who would respond.

2- Many Christians clearly think that the book of Matthew has several passages where Jesus clearly insists on the need to strive to keep the commandments.

3- This is purely “Guesswork” on your part. How can you substantiate any of your explanations ?

Furthermore, none of the Gospel writers claimed to be an “eyewitness”, or named an eyewitness who relayed a particular testimony to them, so how can you be sure that what they wrote was the testimony of eyewitnesses ? There is an element of guesswork here too.

4- I accept your point about how futile arguments about the validity of respective Scriptures is, however, I try to cite the opinion of learned, non-Muslim, mainstream Biblical scholars when disputing passages. Many of those learned scholars believe Matthew was written to confirm the theology of its writer.

5- Your comment about the significance and meaning of the Capital letters of the word “LORD”, and how it signifies the trinity is pure speculation. Can you give any supporting evidence for this ?

This is not how the Patriarchs Abraham, Issac and Jacob appeared to have professed their faith.

6 The Epistle attributed to James is widely disputed by notable Christians. Its date of writing is estimated by most biblical scholars to be several years after James’ death in 62 AD. It was rejected by many church fathers as a pseudepigraph.

You don’t believe the Bible. I get it. When I show you the biblical basis for Christian beliefs, you explain how the passage I used is unreliable. If you don’t want to believe the Bible, that’s fine, but Christians know what the Bible says. Christianity and Islam are polar opposites. If you want to say Christians are wrong, that’s fine, you won’t hurt my feelings.

You’ve still not responded to any of my questions. How are your sins going to be forgiven? How is the penalty for your sins going to be paid?

The short answer is I do not know whether my sins are going to beforgiven or not.

I can not be complacent, I do not believe anyone has a gurantee that his sins are pardoned, save The Prophets chosen by God, and those named individuals whom a Prophet told them God had forgiven their past and future sins .

I hope that when I die, I am professing the true faith, and that the Merciful will forgive my sins. I ask God for forgivness, for He alone can forgive sins.

I ask God to guide me to the straight path, and to enable me to maintain my belief in Him, The Eternal, Living God who begets not nor was He begotten.

I ask God not to make me one who associates partners to Him, nor ascribe a son to Him for He says in the Quran:

[4: 48] Lo! Allah pardons not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardons all save that to whom He will. Who so ascribes partners unto Allah has wandered far astray.

And He said in the Quran:

[43: 81] @Say: If the Beneficent One has a son, then, I shall be first among the worshippers.
[43:82] Glorified be the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of the Throne, from that which they ascribe”

And in the Gospel of Luke, it is written that:

4:8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only Him.’

I & Everyone else for that matter, are wholly subject to Will of God:

[Quran 17: 54] It is your Lord that knows you best; if He please, He grants you mercy, or if He pleases, Punishment

The punsishment of God can be in this world or in the Last Day, in Hellfire or Both. This is how people pay for their sins, subject to the Will of God.

You said, “The punsishment of God can be in this world or in the Last Day, in Hellfire or Both. This is how people pay for their sins, subject to the Will of God.”

First of all, I think while people suffer consequences for their sin during their lifetime, they have not come close to paying their infinite penalty. I agree that eternity in hell is certainly one way to pay our infinite penalty. It is the only way humans can make infinite payment without God’s help.

Since we have all sinned, we all have an infinite penalty to pay, and deserve to go to hell. It seems like you’re hoping that God forgives you because you do certain religious deeds you’ve been commanded to do. Isn’t exchanging good deeds for forgiveness bribery? Are you saying that Allah takes bribes? Why isn’t your offer of bribery only another sin on your account?

If one of your loved ones were raped and murdered, and it pleased the judge to show mercy (Quran 17:54) and forgive the guilty man, is that justice? Clearly if Allah did that, he would be wicked. Are you espousing a wicked, capricious judge that forgives for no reason?

Also, your citation of Luke 4:7 is a beauty for proving the Trinity. Jesus is woshipped throughout the New Testament–even by the angels in the presence of the Father (Hebrews 1:6).

Dear Bill,
Was jusyt reading some of the points that had been brought up between u and Rashid. I felt the need to comment when u mention the rape scenario. If u go back to the bible in deuteronomy, the is a part of ‘Gods’ law that sys that if a virgin, who is not bethrothed, is raped by a man, then that man has to pay her father a sum of money and he has to marry that virgin. He may not divorce her for as long as he lives. If we are discussing fair judges, then I’m just wondering who was paying for the sin in this case? The man got away with paying a fine, actually buying the girl from her father and enjoying getting to continuously rape this no longer virgin for the rest of his life. This girl was sentenced to a life of hell. So who really did ‘God’ make pay for raping the girl? The rapist or the victim herself, in this case the rapist got rewarded for and earned himself a piece of ‘property’. For this and many other reasons, I feel that the bible has been changed and corrupted. It is not God I am doubting, but this so-called word of God. The concept of God which I have does not meet that of the old testament, and since I believe in one God, then its the bibke that has the problem and not ‘the god of the bible.’

Since we have all sinned, we all have an infinite penalty to pay, and deserve to go to hell,

You do not take into account the fact that crimes can vary in their severity and punishment.
According to this logic, telling your child a lie and murdering someone or worshiping idols are one and the same and their perpetrators deserve to go to hell all the same. Isn’t this clearly a flawed logic which is contrary to justice ?

Since most people have at one time or another committed minor sins, why should anyone refrain from committing any heinous crime to further themselves ? If the punishment is the same , or non existent, why settle for small gains ? I really hope you have answers for these questions.

The last question you put, about a loved one who was a victim of a crime is in fact, a double sword, that can equally point to your understanding of atonement, only I think Islam offers an answer whilst the Christian doctrine of salvation by faith alone does not.

I have written a post to explain Islam’s point of view, and await your explanation, as to why a rapist murderer who does not repent but profess that Jesus is his Lord and saviour will be guaranteed salvation, and where does that leave his victim.

Obviously, if he repents, he will be indulging in bribery according to your argument.

We have sinned against an infinitely holy God, and therefore our penalty is infinite. When we sin, we break His law, so we are primarily sinning against Him. If you disagree that our sins deserve an infinite penalty, does Islam teach that hell isn’t eternal? Why would there be an infinite penalty if no one has incurred such a penalty? That is equally unjust as being forgiven in exchange for good deeds.

If someone lived their entire life and only told one lie, they have sinned against our infinitely holy Creator, and they have incurred an infinite penalty, and must spend eternity in hell (Revelation 21:8, Romans 6:23). Their punishment in hell won’t be as severe as someone else, although the Bible doesn’t get very specific. The only thing that stops people from committing worse sins is God Himself.

God requires blood to atone for sin. A rapist who later becomes a Christian has paid his infinite penalty; the means of payment was given to him. That is perfectly just. The rapist who God saves is given repentance as a gift (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). If someone claims to be a Christian, but hasn’t repented, then you know God hasn’t saved him. It’s not that this individual isn’t saved because he hasn’t repented, but he hasn’t repented because he isn’t saved.

I couldn’t help but notice: “The book of John has the largest number of evidences for the deity of Jesus.”

Indeed it is not the book with the largest number of evidences for the deity of Jesus. In fact it is quite the contrary. I’d love to put those verses you’ll quote from in context for you. Whip a few out for me.

Hi
Really interesting discussion. Actually Gospel of John is probably the latest gospel written after the destruction of Jerusalem, the death of James (Jesus’ brother & leader of the followers in Jerusalem) so much of the gospel would have later additions to emphasise Jesus’ assumed divinity which was not James’ view of Jesus. James was a Nazarite and the followers were called Nazarenes as Jesus was called. It appears that Jesus was mistakenly thought to have come from Nazareth although there is little evidence historically of it existing at the time. So it is the Nazarenes/ Ebionites who are likely to have travelled east after the destruction of Jerusalem. The Quran even calls “Christians” Nazara!! In the meantime Paul went west and here we are with Christianity & a divine Jesus figure!
Great discussion

Woah I didn’t think you’d pull that many out :D Its going to take a while to read all the explanations I ‘whip out’ ; ) I hope your up for a read Bill :D

John 2:19-21, 5:18, 21, 23, 8:58, 20:28 are good ones to start on.

John 20:28: “My God, my Lord”

The exclamation, “My God,” on his part was just astonishment. We use such exclamations everyday while talking to people. This doesn’t mean that the person we are talking to is God. For example, I see John cutting his wrist with a Rambo knife. I say: “My God, John what are you doing?” Do I mean that John is God? Of course not. Similar is the use of the expression by Thomas. If you go into Jewish or Muslim societies even today, you’ll hear people exclaim “My God, my Lord,” at every situation which surprises them or causes them anguish or is astonishing. In the verse above Thomas says: “My God, my Lord.” He was not claiming that Jesus was his (1) God and (2) Lord. If he did then the church and the disciples should have stamped him as a heretic right there and then. Because claiming that Jesus is Lord and God is a violation of Christian doctrine, which asserts that there is One God, the Father and One Lord, Jesus. Jesus can’t be God and Lord. “…yet for us there is but one God, the Father…and one Lord, Jesus Christ …(I Corinthians 8:6)”.

John 8:58: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God? How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother’s womb; “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)” Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: “I am what I am.” Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, “I am,” in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as “HO ON.” However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the “I am,” is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said “I am,” in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not!”

John 5:18

“but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”

I’ll take this one in two steps;

He was calling God his own father because he was the ‘Son’. How many others were the Sons of God?
“That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose.” GENESIS 6:2

“…when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” GENESIS 6:4

‘Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.” LUKE 3:38

Boy, that’s A lot of Sons. What does being a Son of God Mean? What Does Having God as your ‘Father’ Mean?

It means being a Servent of God, If you are a Son of God you are a servant of God. I think that point is made quite obviously within the Bible.

When Jesus referred to God as my Father he was doing this when he was addressing himself, it is common self if you are addressing yourself you will say my Father, or my house etc. When Jesus addressed other people he calls God their Father:
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Now “Making himself Equal with God”

Do they mean that literally? No they mean since he is a Son of God, he is Equal with God in the Sense that He is delivering the Word of God.

This can also be seen by Jesus’ reply for which you missed:
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19 = I’m not God I only do what God Commands me to do.

John 5:21, 23

Again you take the verses out of context and disregard what Jesus states in John 5:19. That should be enough but I’ll continue:

In response to Both John 2:19-21 And John 5:21, 23

“Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands…” John 13:3

All things into his hand! Everything he has done was from the Father. The prophecies that are fulfilled and miracles that are done are from the Father. That is clearly stated.

John 20:28
Thomas was speaking to Jesus, and the case could be made that saying “My Lord and my God” would be blasphemous.

John 8:58
That sentence makes no sense unless Jesus is claiming to be the I AM. Furthermore, the Jews understood what He was saying. They picked up stones to stone Him in the next verse.

John 5:18
Again, the Jews were trying to kill Him, because He was calling Himself God’s Son. Clearly there is more to this than you are allowing for. In John 5:19, Jesus claims to be able to do what God does. Can you do what God does? What kind of creature do you propose Jesus was? He is clearly more than human.

Are you Muslim or something else? What are your beliefs about Jesus? If you’re Muslim, these verses are false, or Islam is false. Why don’t you just reject them out of hand rather than trying (poorly) to explain them away?

1: By putting faith in Jesus as a precondition for salvation, then obviously his sacrifice did not greatly help those who do not believe he is their Lord and Savior.
My answer
[First off, Jesus is Zeus,the curse placed on Ephraim. Yahweh is the only Savior no other.
Our faith in Yahshua , as the messiah who preach of the Kingdom of Yahweh and Yahsua worship Him. Yahshua removed the curse of the law, when He died as the image of Yahweh being anointed with the Holy Spirit(Yahweh’s Spirit) and as the son of David;Yahshua removed the marriage contract.]
It follows that the PRIME precondition by which sin is forgiven is faith in God and not the sacrifice itself.
my answer
[The PRIME precondition by which sin is forgiven is faith in Yahweh our Elohim.]

This, in a way, is very close to the position of Islam, which puts an emphasis on the Believe in God, as the only True God as the Prime precondition for salvation. We obviously differ as to the nature of God, but we are getting closer.
my answer
[[No way is Islam close to the faith in Yahweh the Creator our Elohim.] For they worship Allah!!!

2: If Jesus’ sacrifice payed for ALL the sins of the believers, Why did the Messiah -according to the Gospels-insist on keeping the commandments as the route to Eternal life? The Gospels have told us that Jesus himself ordered adherence to the Law (what you referred to as bribes).
my answer
[The commandments can not be removed ,only the curse of them unto repentants.]

3: If Jesus, as you and the Gospels claim, clearly spelled the doctrine of Salvation, and the reason behind his sacrifice, How can you explain the fact that his disciples were perplexed by his resurrection, and some even had doubts after meeting him? It should have been a forgone conclusion to them that the Messiah would be risen from the dead on the third/ second day.
[They had doubts that Mary saw him first.] a women.

4: Where in the Gospels, did Jesus say he is going to die for the specific reason of paying for others sins?
my answer
[The riddle of the Bride,the price paid for the 144000 kings and Priests.]

5: Since we do not have a record of Moses, Aaron, Job or Adam, professing belief that Jesus would die to atone for their sins, and that he was their Lord and Savior, doesn’t this make you claim about their salvation a bit speculative?
my answer
[Moses was under the first book of life and refused to be part of the second book of life.
Moses and the Book of Life.
“Yet now, if You will forgive their sin… but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.” And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” Exodus 32:32-33
Before considering which book Moses and Yahweh are talking about, It should be painfully obvious to those who believe in eternal security that Yahweh has indicated in no uncertain terms… names once in a book are capable of being blotted out of it because of sin!
It is obvious that there is a promise between Yahweh and Moses about a certain “book”. No doubt Elohim had given Moses knowledge of this book. The question is, of which book? Moses appears to be offering to sacrifice his name in this book for the sake of those who have sinned against Yahweh and are apparently about to be blotted from it. If indeed there are the two books of life… the general “book” and the “Lamb’s book”, which one was Moses likely offering to have his name removed from? If ever there was a person who did Yahweh’s commandments and was therefore worthy to have his name written in the Lamb’s book, would it not have been Moses? Elohim told Moses about this special book and the fact that his name was written in it because Moses speaks as though he knows his name is in it. Moses was offering to be left out of the Lamb’s book of life and the New Jerusalem as opposed to offering to be thrown in the lake of fire.]
6: As I mentioned in my post, There is evidence that a group of Early Christians who lived in Jerusalem, and were headed by the close disciple, James, did not believe in the doctrine of atonement, and regarded Jesus as human prophet. These men and women were closer to Jesus than you and I, and even closer than St. Paul himself. What make you think that your beliefs are closer to the teachings of the Messiah than theirs?
my answer
[“Barukh Yahweh Elohey Yisrael”
(1 Samuel 25:32)

Yahweh

“I AM Yahweh THE ELOHIYM OF ISRAEL FROM EVERLASTING EVEN TO EVERLASTING”
(Genesis 4:26. Exodus 3:14. 1 Chronicles 16:36)
DISCIPLES OF Yahshua WORSHIP Yahweh; OUR EVERLASTING FATHER, WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE ELOHIYM; THROUGH HIS SON Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH
(Deut. 6:4,13. Isaiah 9:6. 64:8. Matthew 6:9 John 4:23)
“For all the peoples walk everyone in the name of his elohim; and we will walk in the name of Yahweh, OUR EVERLASTING FATHER, WHO IS OUR ELOHIYM, forever and ever.”
(Micah 4:5 Isaiah 64:8)
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Yahshua’

“You will call His name Yahshua’ because He will save My people from their sins”
(Matthew 1:21)
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THE 490 YEARS PROPHESIED BY THE PROPHET DANIEL

The “Seventy Weeks” or 490 years of Daniels prophecy.

“Seventy weeks are decreed upon your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
(Daniel 9:24)
“Know therefore and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalem until MASHIYACH (MESSIAH) a Prince, there will be seven weeks – and sixty-two weeks – it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress;
(Daniel 9:25)
“and after the sixty-two weeks MASHIYACH will be cut off and have nothing – and the people of a leader who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary but his end shall be with a flood and unto the end of the war, desolations are determined –
(Daniel 9:26)
“and he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and grain offering to cease. And on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
(Daniel 9:27)

THE SEVENTY WEEKS or HEPTADS

The “Seventy weeks (or Heptads ),representing 490 years, (i.e. seventy times 7 years) commenced in the year 458 BCE, when “the decree” was announced by King Artaxerxes(see Ezra 7:11 fwd) “to restore and rebuild Yerushalem” as prophesied in Daniel 9:25 and continued UNBROKEN until the period of time ended exactly 490 years later in the year 32 CE.

THE FIRST 49 YEARS
[From the year 458 to the year 409 BCE]

As prophesied by Daniel the FIRST 49 years included “times of distress” (vs 25) during which the Jews, led by Ezra and Nehemiah, were engaged in the work to “restore and rebuild Yerushalem” (vs 25)”. This work of restoring and rebuilding of Yerushalem is outlined for us in Nehemiah 3:1 fwd: “Then Eliashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests, and they builded the sheep gate…” (Nehemiah 3:1).

This was a time of much “distress” (Daniel 9:25) for those engaged in the work because of threats and mockeries from their enemies such as “Sanballat” and “Tobiah the Ammonite” who threatened to “…break down their stone wall… and they conspired all of them together to come and fight against Yerushalem, and to cause confusion therein” (Nehemiah 3:33-35).

The restoration and rebuilding of Yerushalem was completed in the year 416 BCE “…in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.” (Ezra 6:15).

The end of the FIRST period of 49 YEARS took place 7 YEARS later, in the year 409 BCE, when the last of the prophets, MALACHI, was revealed and prophesied of the coming of “My messenger” Yochanon the Baptizer (John the Baptist) who would introduce; “the adon whom you seek…and the messenger of the covenant”; Yahshua’ Mashiyach:

“Behold, I send My messenger, and he shall clear the way before Me; and the Adon, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in, behold, he cometh, saith Yahweh of hosts.”
(Malachi 3:1)

THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH PROHESIED BY MALACHI

We also can see, from Daniel 9:25 that “until MESSIAH PRINCE there will be seven weeks – and sixty-two weeks”. This period of “seven weeks and sixty-two weeks” totalled 69 weeks; (or 69 times seven) years; which total 483 years.

This means that Yahshua’ of Nazareth, the promised MESSIAH, was prophesied by Daniel to be “manifested to ISRAEL” 434 Years after the the prophet MALACHI.

This brings us 483 [49 + 434] years later to the year 26 CE [Yahshua’ was born in the year 4BCE], when Yahshua’ was “anointed” by “The holy spirit of Yahweh Elohiym his Father” and introduced by TWO WITNESSES; BOTH Yahweh Elohiym,The Father and John the Baptist; to the world; “This is my Son My beloved…Behold The Lamb of Yahweh Elohiym who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29. Matthew 3:17).

On the day that Yahshua’ of Naatsareth was introduced to the Jewish people as their MASHIYACH was also the day which ushered in the last “seven years” remaining of the 490 years prophesied by Daniel.

The 490 years ended in the year 32CE and was followed 30 days later, as we will show, with the manifestation of “…a leader who is to come…” [Daniel 9:26(b)] the “…abomination who makes desolate…” ((Daniel 9:27(b). Matthew 24:15); the anti-messiah and false apostle ‘Paul’.

THE SEVEN YEAR MINISTRY OF Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH AND HIS TWELVE APOSTLES

As we have seen, the last “seven years” [of the 490 years prophesied by Daniel] commenced with the introduction and declaration by Yahweh Elohiym, The Father (The Only True Elohiym) concerning Yahshua’ of Nazareth “This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17) who is the PROMISED “covenant of the people” (Isaiah 42:6. 49:8).

This last ministry and “signs” period of “seven years” was divided into TWO, three and half year – 1260 day – periods, during which the prophecy “And he will confirm the covenant with many” (Daniel 9:27) was fulfilled.

The blessed “covenant” (Daniel 9:27) refers to the “covenant of the people” promised by Yahweh Elohiym in Isaiah 42:6 and 49:8.

During the last “seven years” of the ministry of both Yahshua’ Mashiyach and his “twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:14)this blessed “covenant of the people” was “confirm(ed) to many” through the preaching and “signs” ministry of Yahshua’ Mashiyach [for three and a half years] followed by the preaching and teaching [for a further three and a half years] of his “twelve apostles” as recorded for us ONLY in the FOUR Good News writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Acts..

THE THREE AND A HALF YEAR MINISTRY OF Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH

The first three and a half year period of 1260 days (biblical months have 30 days) commenced with the ministry of Yahshua’ when he first preached “the covenant of the people” (Isaiah 42:6. 49:8) which is “this good news of the kingdom of heaven” (Mark 1:15. Matthew 24:14).

Shimeon, the divinely appointed apostle to the Gentiles announced to them: “You know of Yahshua’ of Nazareth, how Yahweh Elohiym anointed Him with the spirit of The Holy One and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for Yahweh was with Him”.
“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Yerushalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree.
“Yahweh raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
“not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by Yahweh Elohiym, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by Yahweh Elohiym as Judge of the living and the dead”.
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 10:38-43)

THE END OF SACRIFICE FOR SIN

Daniel ALSO PROPHESIED that “in the middle of the week” (that is half way through the LAST SEVEN YEARS), “MESSIAH (Yahshua’) will be cut off and have nothing (put to death)” (vs 26) and, by means of this, “he will cause the sacrifice (for sins) and grain offering to cease” (vs 27).

Yahshua’S ministry was completed exactly at the end of Daniel’s prophesied three and a half years, or 1260 days, when Yahshua’ uttered his wonderful victory cry; to his heavenly Father, Yahweh Elohiym; “IT IS FINISHED” (John 19:30).

With this cry of victory; “IT IS FINISHED”; Yahshua’ also announced the fulfillment of the task appointed to Him by Yahweh Elohiym, THE MESSIAH’S FATHER, and which was also prophesied by Daniel:

“…to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness”
(Daniel 9:24)
Which, thereby “…cause(ed) the sacrifice (for sins) and grain offering to cease”
(Daniel 9:27).

These are the wonderful fruits of the victory accomplished by Yahshua’ MASHIYACH [Yahshua’ Messiah] who “lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13), the “children of Yahweh”, whether Jew or Gentile, “Who believe that Yahshua’ is HaMASHIYACH (The MESSIAH), the only begotten son – of The Only True ELOHIYM, Yahweh Elohiym The Father – who has come into this world and became flesh in the womb of the virgin Miriam. (1 John 5:1. Matthew 16:16. John 17:3. 20:31. Acts 10:43)
“AND THEY CRY OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE SALVATION BELONGS TO Yahweh, OUR SUPREME MIGHTY ONE, WHO SITS UPON THE THRONE AND TO THE LAMB (Yahshua’MASHIYACH)”
(Revelation 7:10).

THE THREE AND A HALF YEAR MINISTRY OF “THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB” THE “CHOSEN FEW”.

During the remainder of the LAST SEVEN YEAR period of Daniel’s prophesied 490 YEARS, after Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH was raised by Yahweh Elohiym, his Father, from the tomb and “sat down at the right hand of Yahweh, His Father, in heaven” (Psalm 110:1)

“The TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB”
(Revelation 21:14)

Then proclaimed the “covenant of the people” (Isaiah 42:6. 49:8) which is the “good news of The Kingdom in all the world to all creation” (Matthew 24:14. Mark 16:15).

The “Twelve apostles of The lamb” (Revelation 21:14) were the “chosen few” (Matthew 22:14. 24:22. John 13:18) who were appointed by Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH, to proclaim “this gospel of the kingdom” (Matthew 24:14) to both Jew and Gentile.

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Shimeon, who is called Eben, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddai (Jude);
Simon the Zealot, and Matthias (who replaced Judas)”.
(Matthew 10:2-4. Acts 1:26).

These “chosen few” (Matthew 22:14. John 13:18) obeyed the command of Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH and preached “this gospel of the kingdom in all the world as a testimony that Yahshua’ is The MESSIAH and THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of Yahweh Elohiym (Matthew 24:14. Mark 16:16); to enable “WHOEVER WILL” to “BELIEVE that Yahshua’ is HaMashiyach (the MESSIAH) the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of “Yahweh Elohiym (Genesis 2:4) and believing have life in his name” (John 20:31).

This three and a half year period or 1260 days – during which The Twelve apostles preached the gospel in all the world – ended the 490 years of Daniels prophecy and was followed THIRTY DAYS LATER; “after 1290 days”(Daniel 12:11); by the appearing of the THE ANTI-MESSIAH ‘Paul’ who led a fierce persecution against the disciples of Yahshua’ by forcing them to flee from Yerushalem, Yudea and Galilee “to the mountains” (Matthew 24:16) as commanded by Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH.

ENTER THE ANTI-MESSIAH AND FALSE APOSTLE ‘PAUL’

The prophet Daniel clearly points to the precise time when THE ANTI-MESSIAH ‘PAUL’ “The abomination of desolation” (Daniel 9:27(b) would be “set up” by Satan.

“From the time that the continual burnt offering shall be taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days” (Daniel 12:11).

EXACTLY, 1290 days later, Saul/Paul “the anti-messiah and abomination which desolates” (Matthew 24:14 Original Hebrew version.) was “set up” (Daniel 9:27) by Satan. This was 30 days after the completion of the 490 years prophesied by Daniel.

The “devil” (Matthew 13:39), in the person of Saul; concerning whom Yahshua’ said “he was a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:41); was manifested when the fierce persecution was initiated by Saul, with the murder of “Stephen” (Acts 8:58 fwd) when “Saul was consenting to his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the assembly of the disciples of Yahshua’ which was at Jerusalem…”; during which “Saul was continuing, breathing out threats and slaughter against the disciples of the Adon (Lord)” (See Acts 8 & 9).

45 DAYS OF THE SLAUGHTER LED BY THE DEVIL AND ANTI-MESSIAH SAUL

As also prophesied; by BOTH Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH and the prophet Daniel; Saul’s initial persecutions, “were shortened” (Matthew 24:22) and only lasted for 45 days, “until 1335 days” (Daniel 12:12), “for the sake of the elect” (Matthew 24:22); that is Yahshua’s “elected Twelve apostles whom he foreknew” (Matthew 22:14. John 13:18).

In Acts 9:30 we are told that when the murderer ‘Paul’ was “sent away to Tarsus” (verse 29); “Then the assemblies throughout all JUDEA and GALILEE and SAMARIA enjoyed PEACE; being built up; and going on in THE FEAR OF Yahweh and in the COMFORT of the spirit of THE HOLY ONE; it continued to increase” (Acts 9:30). HALLELU – Yahweh!.

DESTRUCTION OF YERUSHALEM AND THE TEMPLE BY “THE PEOPLE OF” THE ANTIMESIAH ‘PAUL’

The Prophet Daniel also prophesied the later destruction “of the city of Yerushalem and the Temple”, in 70AD by “the people (the Romans) of the christ-ian “leader” (antimesiah ‘Paul’who was a Roman citizen) who is to come”.

Daniel prophesied: “…the people of a leader who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there; there will be war; desolations are determined” (Daniel 9:26b).

As prophesied the devil, anti-mashiyach and false apostle ‘Paul’ made his self -confessed “UNGODLY” appearance first as a murderer and then; having set up his christ-ian shop in Antioch, in SYRIA where his disciples “were first called christ-ians” (Acts 11:26); ‘Paul’ “secretly crept in…on the wing of abominations” (Jude 1:4. Daniel 9:27b.
THE END OF VISIONS AND PROPHECY

As again prophesied by Daniel “both vision and prophecy” were brought to an end or “sealed up” (Daniel 9:24) at the conclusion of the 490 Year period circa the year 32CE.

As we have seen (above) the 490 year period concluded with the proclamation by “The Twelve Apostles of The Lamb” (Revelation 21:14) of “The Gospel to all nations in all the world” (Mark 16:15).
“Vision and prophecy” and “signs and wonders” ceased with the ministry of “The Twelve apostles of The Lamb…through whose hands many signs and wonders were taking place among the people” (Acts 5:12 Revelation 21:14)

THE PROPHET DANIEL IS EVEN NOW STANDING “IN HIS ALLOTTED PLACE”

“But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” (Daniel 12;13)
Daniel is even now “risen again for (his) allotted portion at the END OF THE AGE” (Daniel 12:13)

THIS IS HOW WE KNOW THAT IT IS EVEN NOW “THE END OF THE AGE” (Daniel 12:13).
HALLELU-Yahweh! HALLELU-Yahweh! HALLELU-Yahweh! HALLELU-Yahweh!

***WARNING FROM Yahshua’ THE MESSIAH***
DO NOT CONCEAL, FROM OTHERS, WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED HERE:
SEE MATTHEW 25:18,25.
Note: Scholars generally agree that the Gospel of John was written much later (Earliest estimate about 90 AD i.e. about 60 years after the events), and After the theology of the Pauline Christianity was highly developed. The Nazarenes/ Ebionites, on the other hand, were said to be professing their markedly different beliefs at around 30 AD.
This when Paul upset the abomination of desolation (christianity).]

Did Yahshua Warn That Paul Was His Enemy?

John 5:30-31 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Saul of Tarsus is the only one who testified of himself and declared himself to be an Apostle of Yahshua. He was not even taught by the true Apostles of Yahshua. Instead, he received his ‘knowledge’ of the Messiah by special revelation.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Yahshua Ha Mashyiach.

Yahshua told us the following:

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Saul of Tarsus taught in the Name of Yahshua. However, if he were a real, authentic Apostle of Yahshua, he should have been taught by Yahshua in the presence of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.

I John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Yahshua is the Messiah? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

How does one deny both the Father and the Son? By preaching the Jesus (Yahshua) of lawelessness that Paul preached. He preached that Yahshua abolished the commandments of Yahweh and therefore any who adhere to His law are lost- or even worse: “unbelieving Jews.”
Thus saith Paul of Tarsus:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 10:4 For Messiah is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of Yahweh: for if righteousness come by the law, then Messiah is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 5:4 Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Messiah, the righteousness which is of Yahweh by faith:

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Saul/Paul’s ‘Jesus’ is not the same Messiah who was sent by Yahweh, bearing the testimony of His Father: That Yahweh IS true. Yahshua did not teach anything contrary to the word of the Father in Heaven. Yahshua kept His Father’s commandments and commanded us to do the same.

Even the Pharisees and the religious folks of the day, realized there was something amiss about Paul: eg., his utterly blasphemous doctrine:

Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Yahshua said:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:16-17 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of Yahweh is preached, and every man presseth (forces his way) into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

John 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If you believe in and love the Most High Elohim- Yahweh our Heavenly Father, and the Father of our Messiah, Yahshua, it’s time to see how the teachings of Paul are both against the Father and His Son. How does a person deny both the Father and the Son? By breaking the commandments of Yahweh and by not receiving the true testimony of His Son. The testimony that Paul gives us, of Yahshua, is not the same testimony that is in the synoptic gospels- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Jude, the 3 Epistles of John, James, and Revelation. It is not the same spirit at all, because if it was, Paul would have taught the same things the true Apostles taught. He didn’t. He taught his own version, based on myterious revelation, whom none had been witness to, but himself. Yahshua’s testimony was this: Yahweh IS true, and His Way is Righteous.

The problem with Paul of Tarsus, is that he blasphemed the Mighty One and made His Son out to be lawless and taught multitudes to follow himself, rather than Yahshua, the Good Shepherd. However, Yahshua said we need to obey and follow His teachings and His example, as He obeyed His Father. Yahshua came to teach us how to worship the Father in Spirit and truth and how to fulfill the law of Yahweh by obedience to His commandments. Paul taught a different god than the Elohim which Yahshua revealed to us by His Words and by His works. He kept His Father’s commandments and told us to keep His, as He kept His Father’s. Loving the Father means forsaking all other gods to obey and follow the truth. Yahshua told us His commandments are not grievous and they aren’t. If we love the Father: Yahweh, it will be a pleasure to do His will.

Is is good to read such detailed analysis. My issue is that if, which is most likely, Jesus (Yeshua) was a prophet/ Torah observant Jew seeking the Kingdom in his time. What faith/ religion is there for non-Jews to find community and worship? I have looked at Noahidism and this seems most likely in James’ requirements in the Apostolic Decree (Acts 15) but the communities are so small and mainly in the USA.
I am resolving myself to consider my faith to be Ethical Monotheism with no real home. Does anyone have advice?
Rob

If you are interested in reading an extract from the work of one of the world’s top New Testament scholars, JDG Dunn, then I have laboriously copied this out for you. Its relevance to our ongoing debates with Christians will, I hope, be immediately apparent.

The work in question is entitled The Parting of the Ways between Christianity and Judaism and their Significance for the Character of Christianity JDG Dunn is professor of theology at Durham University. He writes from within the Evangelical Christian tradition.

Pages 77 to 79:

The first believers in Jesus Messiah seem also to have attended the Temple and to have participated in the Temple cult. The clear implication of Acts 3.1, and perhaps also 5.21 is that the first followers of Jesus observed the traditional hours of prayer. The point is that the hour of prayer was also the hour of sacrifice: Ps. 141.2 and Luke 1.10 indicate that the offering of incense was seen as occasion for prayer, and the offering of incense was itself part of the morning and evening sacrificial ritual.

Furthermore, according to the later account of Acts 21.24 the Jerusalem believers expected Paul to demonstrate his loyalty to the Temple by observing the prescribed purificatory rituals.

There is a striking absence in the early speeches and sermons of Acts of the theology of the cross so prominent later. The historical fact of Jesus having been killed is mentioned, of course; but it is not interpreted soteriologically or in terms of sacrifice (Acts 2.23, 36; 3.13-15; 4.10; 5.27-8; see also 7.52; 10.39; 13.27-28).

How much of this motif in the Acts speeches is a reflection of Luke’s theology is very hard to tell. In this respect the weakness of the Lukan parallel to Mark 10.45 should be noted (Luke 22.27, ‘I am among you as one who serves – nothing of Mark’s talk of Jesus giving his life ‘as a ransom for many’). It is also a striking fact that the more clearly sacrificial language of the last supper in Luke 22.19-20 and Acts 20.28 is caught up in some of the most difficult textual questions in Luke-Acts – which suggests at least that the original text called forth some reworking for some reason (an inadequate theology of the cross?).

Whatever the true facts of the matter, the absence of a clear theology of Jesus’ death as sacrifice at this very earliest stage (according to Luke’s account) is notable and strengthens the impression that Jesus’ death at that time may not have been seen as a (vicarious) sacrifice which removed the need for any further cultic sacrifice.

—-

Dunn concludes his analysis on page 81:

We must conclude therefore that the continuing function of the Jerusalem Temple was not an issue for the first Christians.

A O A.
Hello In charge,
I visited your website and deeply impressed by your work and teachings. I found that you are doing a great work for the Christian and Islamic people in the meantime. I am a professional translator as you know that the Urdu is the language of different countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,etc. i want that your work
Should be appreciated in these countries. I want to do work with your ministry OR organization as a Urdu Translator’s. Hopes that you will consider me for this great option.
Yours Sincerely,
Zainab Naseem

There is obviously a big difference between God and the word of God. For instance, many Christian would routinely say th
at the Bible is the word of God, but I don’t think they believe that the Bible is their God. The verse in the Quran that say Jesus is the word of God expressly warn about trinitarian belief, the verses next to it stress that Jesus was a servant of God, and that Jesus himself would not object to being described a servant of God.

well from an Islamic perspective a messiah (by definition) / a savior doesn’t necessary mean that it should be god himself or his son or anything like that neither in human form or spirit.. but one of god’s servants a righteous man ,a prophet ,an archangel ,a high priest like Melchizedek …etc…so god choose Jesus the man ,the prophet to be that savior in the end of times that’s why he’s called “messiah” in the first place in the Quran as well ..”Al-massih”=”the savior”..so god having to come to earth in person is blasphemous in Islam because 1) he doesn’t sound very omniscient 2) not powerful enough to be the god of the scriptures & has obvious limitations..

god called Jesus the “word of god” because he kinda put his words into his mouth like in …John 8:28…John 5:30 ..like Muslims believe the Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel so in the case of Jesus god put words into his mouth directly in his mind Jesus was like a wisdom record playing..

An unbiased reading of the bible reveals that there is not trinity..the translators translated the bible to fit their own beliefs, anyone who looks at the hebrew – aramaic…and greek can see that there are other possible meanings.

Wow.. So much in this discussion. There are some really key issues thrown around here. One key is understanding the context and paradigm of 1st century messianic Jews. To have scripture written by Jews, Paul being a Pharisee, Jesus and his disciples being Jews, the Jewish church being zealous for the law still in around AD60 (Acts 21); then Gentiles (we) take the writings of Jews and the church within 100 years say the religion of Jesus is evil, are totally disconnected from the paradigm of the writer; then we read and interpret the scriptures of another religion….there is massive room for misinterpreting.

2 big issues for the world Islam and Christianity need to be addressed… a) Christian Christology….. For Bob who put the long list of verses supporting the trinity, as you carefully go through scripture it is no longer straight forward. That is why in the 5th century the church had to come up with the doctrine of dual nature, because there is so much in the gospels that is showing Jesus subordinate to God. So now if a verse reveals that, Christians can answer that that was the human side of Jesus talking and not the God side!!!

So tell me, when Messianic Jewish believers were zealous for the law in AD60ish, were they trinitarian?

b) For Islam…. The accusation of corruption of scripture has no foundation. The prophet Muhammad recognises the “Former Books” as truth. Later after AD1000 a Muslim scholar promoted the new idea of the Injil being corrupted. the other big thing is the sidelining of Jesus……all this because they equate the Bible with a book endorsing trinitarianism… which it doesn’t!!

I seriously believe the Al Qur’an and the Injil can be totally compatible.

Hi all.
Have a look on this:
-When Mary a got her lovely baby boy (ie.Jesus) and feed him through her breasts milk, who was the God of Mary?

-When people came to visit and congratulate Mary for geting baby if they could say in front of her that your baby must be beaten, wiped and killed for our sins,just gues what could be the reaction of Mary to them?

YHVH is the almighty, Elohim is God the fther God the son and God the holy Spirit that all dwell in a person who receives the faith to believe. Since sin is missing the mark (The Torah/Word/Yeshua), ignorance and misunderstanding then coming to know truth (of the word/Torah/Yeshua) is freedom from the slavery of sin/ignorance. Yeshua came to be our example of we should go thru and become like and he gave the deposit of the Spirit (our teacher, couselor) to show us the way. Only truth sets us free, so if you do not have truth you are in bondage to that ignorance. Faith is being persuaded of a truth revealed thru the Spirit by the Word. Mary said, BE it unto me as you will, she loved God that much, no matter what her son (our children and all we have are only ours thru God;s goodness). When a muslim says to his wife: honey, I am going to go die for Alla so i can have many virgin wives in heaven, what does she say (just curious). And his death does nothing for others (and sends him to hell) and NO resurrection to life as Christ shows us his example of our life after we die spiritually to ourselves (misunderstanding of truth we believe) and life fully for him. If you are trying to understand the Scriptures with a carnal mindset you will never understand, it is only thru the Spirit, given by Christ, to those who receive that will have the eyes to see and ears to hear (shemayin = heaven)and a heart to understand and have the kingdom of Heaven within.

I’ve read & reread those verses more than 10 times & in Arabic it really is astonishing discovery it’s referring to some sect that predates the Islamic & Quranic era ,it’s inspiring how it says that they’ll be rewarded twice for what they patiently endured & that passage reminds me of the crying infant Ishmael & his weeping mother in the book of genesis he was thirsty & about to die & suddenly god blesses them for their patience ..the god of abraham is really epic

I am happy and thankful to God for being a Muslim. Islam is so solid. Its theology (as in the classical sense, i.e. knowledge/logos of God/theo) stands firm, unlike the Christian religion(s). If you read in the Qur’an, you’ll see who God is, what attributes and actions God has, how God is named and why, and so forth. The Qur’an-passages are reasonable, consistent and a great pleasure to read and recite loudly. Beautiful is the Revelation of God.

However, the Bible and particularly the New Testament is insecure, unsteady. The Gospel-passages are confusing, particularly between Marc and John. The NT does not make sense when it comes to who God is. Could this be a revelation of God, the Most High?

The Bible (NT and OT) are HISTORICAL testimonies documenting things as they happened. There are MULTIPLE witnesses to Jesus’ identity as the Son of God, His miracles, His foretold death (prophesied hundreds of years earlier in Isaiah 53) and His resurrection.

Jesus warned many false prophets, false teachers and false Christs would come after Him.
Apostle John CLEARLY WARNED that there were already and would continue to be those who deny the TRUE identity of Jesus and His physical death and resurrection – John said it was the spirit of ANTICHRIST that would deny the Father and the Son. READ John’s letter of 1John chapters 2 and 5 and you will understand that we have been CLEARLY FOREWARNED about the false doctrine that Islam would bring 600 years later…

Please use your LOGIC – God has NEVER spoken through His TRUE prophets about correcting the documentations of PAST events…He has always validated HISTORICAL events through REAL-TIME EYEWITNESSES, just as we do so in the human courts of Law…Any so-called “prophet” who claims to have the “true revelation” by flatly contradicting PAST EYEWITNESS RECORDED events is a LIAR…

The Qur’an had NEVER been allowed to be historically scrutinized the way the Bible has been scrutinized…whatever is dictated by the religious leaders is accepted unquestioningly…

Dear Muslims, you have believed a LIE that cuts you off in EVERY DIRECTION from the ONE and ONLY salvation that comes through the Lord Jesus Christ…you would rather lose your Ummah for the TRUTH than lose your own soul ETERNALLY… Jesus said, “what does it profit a man to gain the whole world [even religion, Ummah] yet lose his own soul?”

even the early churches weren’t sure who Jesus was & even some early christian sects thought Jesus wasn’t even crucified now you’re telling me you are just some guy 2000 years after claiming to know better ..& by “the false prophet” why not it was a hint to the fake Apostle Paul who said he met Jesus in spiritual form though he had no witnesses to back up his claims the proof is that he teach & preached different message than that of Jesus From how is unnecessary to observe the sabbath & he said the physical circumcision is not mandatory though Jesus did not come to abolish the laws of Moses nor to impose new ones & it’s a part of the covenant that god made with Abraham Muhammad PBUH in the other hand brought all of that back to business again & Islam is just orthodox Judaism resurrected with few new minor rules ..salvation through blood sacrifice is fake & sounds nothing like god would do but more like a satanic ritual some Bohemian grove stuff & in Matthew 7:21 Jesus let’s you know that nobody’s sin is forgiven no one is granted by HIM JESUS or guaranteed to enter the kingdom of heaven but only God himself & that’s a verse dedicated only to Christians because they’re the only ones to call Jesus “LORD”

All these christians worship is Satan Arrajeem and they are going straight to hell if they don’t Repent to Allah Because Jesus Christ Word of Allah the Soul of Allah The Messiah cannot save them from hell so Repent before its to late

Original followers of Jesus (pbuh), the Ebionites/Nasorean Jews never believed in Greek Testaments used by Christian-Romans. After all the Greek Testamenst are filled with fables written after the Jew-Roman war (66AD) by Christian-Romans.

Kartir, the Zoroastrian high priest and advisor to Hormizd I in the late 3rd century c.e., campaigned against other religions among which he clearly distinguished Christians from Nasoreans.

Kabah of Zartusht”And in kingdom after kingdom and place after place throughout the whole empire the services of Ahura Mazda and the Yazads became preeminent, and great dignity came to the Mazdayasnian religion and the magi in the empire, and the Yazads and water and fire and small cattle in the empire attained great satisfaction, while Ahriman and the devs were punished and rebuked, and the teachings of Ahriman and the devs departed from the empire and were abandoned. And Yahud (Jews), Shaman (Buddhists), Brahman (Hindus), Nasara (Nasoreans), Kristiyan (Christians), Maktak (Baptisers), and Zandiks (Manichaeans) in the empire were smitten, and destruction of idols and scattering of the stores of the devs and god-seats and nests was abandoned.

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Epiphanius says the nasarenes are a “pre-Christian” group. Lidzbarski argued to make this the Mandeans, for which he postulated a pre-Christian origin. But Epiphanius is strictly correct anyway if we apply
‘nasarenes’ to the early Jesus-people: ‘Christian’ was not initially used in Palestine where the movement started, but only later (Antioch most likely). The ‘nasarenes’ were indeed “pre-Christian”, and for an ancient
heresy-hunter they would never become Christian (due to their Ebionite theology), no matter what the time period.

People of the Book (ahlul kitab) . The term refers to Jews and Nasrani (Children of Israel) that follow the prophecy in their scripture about the coming of a prophet from the East (Land where Ishmael’s descendants inhabit). As the People of the Book were given the message about things to come regarding the righteous servant of God that will obliterate molten images worshiped in East. Nasrani (during the time of 12 disciples) do not refer to Christians that uses Greek Roman gospels, but rather Hebrew alphabet gospels (used by Jewish Nasoreans/Ebionites) that do not posses stories written by Roman scribes.

However there are Nasrani that have disbelieved, by acknowledging falsehood stories (Triune) during early times. (Quran 5:17)

If the Roman Christians were indeed People of the Book like Jewish followers of Jesus. They should have settled in the East as well awaiting for the arrival of the Servant of God . Just like People of the Book that made settlements surrounding the location of prophecy awaiting for the arrival of the prophet.

John the Baptist was the LAST and greatest prophet of Holy Scripture, as Jesus said in Matthew 11:11-15 ““Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Jesus CLEARLY forewarned to beware of false prophets that would come after Him.

Sorry to break the truth to you, but the message of Islam comes from the spirit of ANTICHRIST in the mouth of a FALSE prophet, as the apostle John forewarned about in 1John 2: “Who is the LIAR but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the ANTICHRIST, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.”

1John 4: “1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many FALSE prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the ANTICHRIST, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1John 5: “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”

You are quoting stories in Greek gospels. Basically there are hundreds of Greek books and only 27 were chosen in 4th century to be compiled as New Testament. The books were found scattered and not compiled prior to 4th century indicating they were written by different Roman scribes.

if you search for any surviving Greek NT scriptures, you can never find those books compiled together in form of single corpus Testament. But rather surviving books are found separated in different regions. The language too is not in the original tongue of Early followers of Jesus (the Jewish Nasoreans/Ebionites) thus indicating the Greek books were authored by Romans scribes whom misinterpret Israelite scriptures.

Lets not search for an intact NT but Can you find an incomplete NT (at worst say ONLY 9 books or 1/3rd of NT) found to be compiled in 3rd century and before that period? Impossible as compilation were made by Fathers in 4th century.

Greek gospels are misinterpretation by Roman fathers/cribes reading Israelite scriptures.” And there are many variations of stories about Jesus in Greek scriptures. And in 4th century they accept only 27 books as canon and hundreds other Greek variations were dismissed as canon.