Remembering the 96

Sorry, but what exactly do comments like this aim to do? Are people insisting that Rodgers should be sacked like Kenny if he doesn't do at least as well? Are people implicitly undermining support for the current manager by talking about the previous manager all the time? Not saying you personally mean ill by it, but I find these things to be unhelpful and making things unpleasant in the extreme for Rodgers.

Don't think anyone is undermining anyone,but is it not ironic how you seem to be alarmed at how the thought of people suggesting that br should come under the same scrutiny that kenny came under almost repulsive.

For all his talk about his philosophy and the statements to the press about certain players(see andy Carroll for reference) mistakes have been made,certain posters on here lambasted kenny for our poor run in the league,well surprise surprise we are at present doing worse than we did last season,so people have the right to question if the decision was right do they not?

TIA Reserve Team

Are you kidding? So now that Gerrard is 30+ years old and cant play 3 games week, he shouldn't be here?

Its not about just the physical capability... Its about the mental rest as well... How many times have you felt that you are able to do your job much better after a week's vacation? Time between games gives our top players much needed physical AND mental rest.

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Xavi manages it , and he actually gets all the way in internationals. Footballers should be fit enough to play the occasional 2 games a week. I think it would be pretty easy to do my job if i only had to work saturdays and also have a big summer break depending on internationals. I can understand needing the break every so often but not every week.

Long Time Nemesis™

Don't think anyone is undermining anyone,but is it not ironic how you seem to be alarmed at how the thought of people suggesting that br should come under the same scrutiny that kenny came under almost repulsive.

That's because many people (yourself included) have, I think, a fundamental misapprehension about why Kenny was let go. I've discussed it at length elsewhere, but the short version is that I don't think Rodgers will have his 'success' for this season measured in terms of directly empirical things like league position, points, goals scored, etc. I don't think those standards were used for Kenny and I don't think they will be used now. (I mean in a final sense; they are, of course, considered, but they are useless without context.)

TIA First Team

That's because many people (yourself included) have, I think, a fundamental misapprehension about why Kenny was let go. I've discussed it at length elsewhere, but the short version is that I don't think Rodgers will have his 'success' for this season measured in terms of directly empirical things like league position, points, goals scored, etc. I don't think those standards were used for Kenny and I don't think they will be used now. (I mean in a final sense; they are, of course, considered, but they are useless without context.)

thats fine, but a key question is how will you measure success. lets take the idea that some people are not too bothered about league position or trophies at present and for this season. youve set your stall out, everyone has different expectations, fine.

but what will define what rodgers is doing is successful/progressing, and what is the barometer that would define things as not working and unsuccessful?

You said it yourself: progress. Getting knocked out of the League Cup with a team that included a CM as RB and Joe Cole on the pitch isn't the sign of abject failure that many are taking it to be. I would argue that we've already seen success: the absolutely astronomical strides we have taken to give our young players the step up they need; the complete revamp of our midfield (a feat that I think has gone under-appreciated in lieu of our shortages up top); SuÃ¡rez being less profligate than previously; the steady and promising continued implementation of a new style of play that we look to be a few tweaks away from turning into a real danger.

I look to January, the summer, and the next season under Rodgers with excitement and hope. Sadly, that's not something I felt under Kenny, especially in the second half of the season. I didn't know where we were going but now I do. Maybe some people think where we are going is down, but I don't share that negativity; I'm looking past the struggles of a (very) young team and seeing what that will turn into.

Remembering the 96

That's because many people (yourself included) have, I think, a fundamental misapprehension about why Kenny was let go. I've discussed it at length elsewhere, but the short version is that I don't think Rodgers will have his 'success' for this season measured in terms of directly empirical things like league position, points, goals scored, etc. I don't think those standards were used for Kenny and I don't think they will be used now. (I mean in a final sense; they are, of course, considered, but they are useless without context.)

So in essence under your original name of stefan who continually berated results last season under kenny and with others who continually used expletives to express how shit kenny was etc etc you now after taking a sabbatical (courtesy of eddie) have come back with a positive outlook etc and now find it almost an enigma that people are surreptitiously beginning to question the conventional wisdom of the owners decisions,and basically saying that these sort of possible thoughts are undermining the manager?

Do you think that a bit strange?...and as regards to the reasons as to why kenny was sacked,you like me are not privvy to the real reasons,so speculation regardless of it being empirical like you say makes the whole concept of anyone have a thought process or an opinion a bit floccinaucinihilipilification in its truest form does it not?

TIA First Team

You said it yourself: progress. Getting knocked out of the League Cup with a team that included a CM as RB and Joe Cole on the pitch isn't the sign of abject failure that many are taking it to be. I would argue that we've already seen success: the absolutely astronomical strides we have taken to give our young players the step up they need; the complete revamp of our midfield (a feat that I think has gone under-appreciated in lieu of our shortages up top); SuÃ¡rez being less profligate than previously; the steady and promising continued implementation of a new style of play that we look to be a few tweaks away from turning into a real danger.

I look to January, the summer, and the next season under Rodgers with excitement and hope. Sadly, that's not something I felt under Kenny, especially in the second half of the season. I didn't know where we were going but now I do. Maybe some people think where we are going is down, but I don't share that negativity; I'm looking past the struggles of a young team and seeing what that will turn into.

im not bothered about going out the cup. not one bit. however the problem with it is that on the flip side there is no tick in the box . something to say look what ive done/can do, this is what ive achieved. so its an opportunity missed.

at the moment its still a wait and see situation because as much as you want to wax lyrical about the way we play, ive seen it with martinez and owen coyle and even ian holloway. in blackpools first half of the season they played some great passing football, even passing manu off the park.

no ones overly concerned about the results so far because hes only just starting. but on the flip side, it hasnt proved anything by not getting results and getting knocked out of cups. it all remains to be seen.

there needs to be something tangible to because he doesnt have that pedigree to say look ive won x titles, x trophies, its going to take time.

the proof is in the pudding because he needs to achieve something that he, you, and i have never seen him achieve.

but there also needs to be something tangible along the way. i applaud roberto martinez approach and philosophy at wigan, and the way they play. that doesnt mean i wouldnt have doubts about him too.

but until you prove something with it, something that says i can win things, there will always be doubts.

Long Time Nemesis™

and as regards to the reasons as to why kenny was sacked,you like me are not privvy to the real reasons,so speculation regardless of it being empirical like you say makes the whole concept of anyone have a thought process or an opinion a bit floccinaucinihilipilification in its truest form does it not?

I never said I had the answer, I just said that my opinion was that Kenny wasn't fired for league position alone, nor was it the major reason. You're more than welcome to disagree, I imagine a lot of people do! But given my belief in that, I think the same metric would be used for Rodgers. Meaning: I don't think he'd be straight sacked for not getting the necessary league position either. Again, many people disagree and think his head will be on the block if we're not pushing for fourth. I'm not saying they're wrong, I'm saying I don't go along with that reasoning.

As for the first part of your post, you're more than welcome to PM about it if you'd like to continue that discussion further.

Long Time Nemesis™

But 'proof' doesn't come only in the form of silverware. If he's never before been in a situation where he was reasonably capable of 'proving' his worth, it'd be unfair to expect such things. 'Winning' Swansea a spot in the Premier League and then keeping them there was an absolutely enormous feat which I think not many people fully appreciate. For me, those things have earned the patience to see what 'proof' he can come up with here. But again, I'm willing to wait a season for proof in that form.

Banned Users

No Liverpool FC manager will have 3 years to prove himself ... Not in these modern times ... Rodgers will probably have until the end of next season to show some serious progress, like qualifying for the CL, or at least winning a cup ... If he doesn't do that by May 2014, he will be gone ...

TIA First Team

But 'proof' doesn't come only in the form of silverware. If he's never before been in a situation where he was reasonably capable of 'proving' his worth, it'd be unfair to expect such things. 'Winning' Swansea a spot in the Premier League and then keeping them there was an absolutely enormous feat which I think not many people fully appreciate. For me, those things have earned the patience to see what 'proof' he can come up with here. But again, I'm willing to wait a season for proof in that form.

Long Time Nemesis™

No Liverpool FC manager will have 3 years to prove himself ... Not in these modern times ... Rodgers will probably have until the end of next season to show some serious progress, like qualifying for the CL, or at least winning a cup ... If he doesn't do that by May 2014, he will be gone ...

Do you think that is related to our owners specifically or to the nature of the league more generally? I've read/heard several times that the average duration of a managerial position is 18 months or so.

Remembering the 96

Serious question do you think people having doubts is undermining the manager?if so do you not think that contradicts what happened this time last year when you were doing the same to kenny in his first full season?....I don't need to pm you unless the mods tell me too but i'm sure others would be interested in your explanation.

Long Time Nemesis™

A failure to make the next step up in terms of 'progress': for me, the expectation is to challenge for Champions League qualification all of next season and to make a serious run at the Europa League (although I'm willing to compromise on the latter for the sake of the former since there's no automatic CL qualification for the EL winner) and one of the domestic cups (again, lower priority).

I would make these judgements in the relatively arbitrary manner of "oh, well you finished 7th instead of 5th or 6th so it's the axe for you", but on evidence of our on-pitch performances. If they keep improving and Rodgers continues to show the willingness to grow the team, I will continue to support him.

Banned Users

Do you think that is related to our owners specifically or to the nature of the league more generally? I've read/heard several times that the average duration of a managerial position is 18 months or so.

TIA First Team

A failure to make the next step up in terms of 'progress': for me, the expectation is to challenge for Champions League qualification all of next season and to make a serious run at the Europa League (although I'm willing to compromise on the latter for the sake of the former since there's no automatic CL qualification for the EL winner) and one of the domestic cups (again, lower priority).

I would make these judgements in the relatively arbitrary manner of "oh, well you finished 7th instead of 5th or 6th so it's the axe for you", but on evidence of our on-pitch performances. If they keep improving and Rodgers continues to show the willingness to grow the team, I will continue to support him.

i dont think the people are saying the axe will automatically fall if he has a mediocre season because he finished say 10th. the issue is that having a mediocre season doesnt prove anything either. its not a notch on his belt to say im the guy that can do this. thats where the doubt lies.

therefore theres a thin line between saying, its his first season, it fine not to achieve that much, with the fact that at the same time if you dont achieve much, you dont show that your doing anything significant either.

Long Time Nemesis™

Serious question do you think people having doubts is undermining the manager?if so do you not think that contradicts what happened this time last year when you were doing the same to kenny in his first full season?....I don't need to pm you unless the mods tell me too but i'm sure others would be interested in your explanation.

Not in an immediate sense, but those who bring up Kenny all the time-- both in terms of performances and his sacking-- are setting a bit of an unpleasant tone. It's hard to look beyond brining last season up as a way of expressing dissatisfaction with the owners. I think people who insist the owners will have to use the same league table metric to judge Rodgers are doing so because they're hoping the owners will validate their dislike by giving Rodgers the boot as well.

By the end of last season I was reconsidering my position on whether removing Kenny really would be the right decision and by the summer I was willing to accept that another season would be good for him. I still remain curious as to what players, etc. we would have gone for, but at the same time I accept that we didn't get a chance to find out and now it's time to move on.

I disagree with your characterisation of my criticism of Kenny at the time, but the issue of my previous banning has been covered elsewhere at some length. Again, if you would like to continue that discussion over PM I am more than willing, but this thread is definitely not the place for it.

TIA Squad Member

Serious question do you think people having doubts is undermining the manager?if so do you not think that contradicts what happened this time last year when you were doing the same to kenny in his first full season?....I don't need to pm you unless the mods tell me too but i'm sure others would be interested in your explanation.

Remembering the 96

Long Time Nemesis™

i dont think the people are saying the axe will automatically fall if he has a mediocre season because he finished say 10th. the issue is that having a mediocre season doesnt prove anything either. its not a notch on his belt to say im the guy that can do this. thats where the doubt lies.

Fair point. I'm not suggesting that I have been utterly convinced that Rodgers will be a success, as I clearly have no way of knowing that for sure. However, I am hopeful and as you say a mediocre season won't dull that hope just as it won't inspire hope in those who are skeptical.

But I think we can all agree that this season is for many confounding reasons a bit of a throw-away in terms of setting high expectations. By the end of next season it should be more clear whether Rodgers does have it in him to be the manager I hope he will be. The critics won't wait that long to jump to their conclusions, though, which is why I and others have been so vocal about our own beliefs.

I agree,but there seems to be a slight rumbling sound where people are hearing the talk etc but the results are not going the way they should be (sounds familiar)...and so they are beginning to question where we are and where we are going on this "project"

Long Time Nemesis™

And cheers to you as well. I don't think it's much of a secret that we didn't particularly care for one another last time around, but I appreciate that you take the time to actually discuss your opinions even when I disagree with them.

Rodgers is still early in his first season with LFC, so I agree that it is too soon to have any serious doubts about him ... Still, the clock is ticking ... Like I have already said, he will have to show some serious improvement next season ... Qualifying for the CL, or at least winning a cup next season is obligatory ...

the approach is correct to give a manager time, but the doubt is simply if its the right manager in the first place. i know some believe in him totally but at the same time, many too have some doubts. if we had guardiola here we could finish 15th this season and wed all be happy to give him as long as it takes so its not necessarily about the patience.