There are plenty of members of EF who would take a "Children Welcome Here" sign in a restaurant as a clear instruction to keep away, even though it isn't actually intended for them.

True, but from my understanding of the situation, the issue with Halal is that its not significantly more expensive than regular meat, and often even cheaper. Therefore there is nothing to prevent excess production getting into unlabelled foods, or meat from different sources being mixed even. Hence people specifically wanting to avoid it need to get a positive assurance that its not contained, whereas people wanting halal need a more specific assurance of the mechanism or control agency that is guaranteeing it for them. So either way an uncontrolled "halal" label is rather unsatisafctory. Or good enough maybe for a first attempt seeing previosly there was nothing, but definitely something capable of evolving further.

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You said it's wrong to have halal meat forced upon people. When this is not really the case, because before these reports we haven't seen people complaining about the way Halal meat / Kosher meat (which is slaughtered also without stunning)

I am indifferent to how your local slaughter house should slaughter it's meat produce sources, if they feel it necessary to stun / gas / drown / sedate the animal then so be it. You don't see me asking for meat products to be labeled with the method used to render the animal unconscious so I can make an "informed decision" whether this method is cruel or not.

Not many complain here in Switzerland, where halal meat is only sold in specialist shops for people who specifically want it.

In the UK, around 50% of meat sold in supermarket and in restaurants, catering, is now halal. And I can assure you there are 1000s of people who are saying that proper labelling should be a legal obligation. An MP has recently tried to get a motion through to enforce this- but Cameron and co defeated it- as halal meat is indeed big business. A significant % of the population is really upset about this, and are now pushing for the change.

You are indifferent- and that's ok with me. Many people are not, and want to have the choice. Who are you on your big horse to prevent them from doing so? Why should some people have the choice, to, say, not eat horse, or not eat pork- for whatever reason. Everybody can choose for themselves. If you feel that is not important- than that's fine with me. I don't want to make halal illegal- I want people to be able to chose. And I am certainly not part of a tiny minority in the UK.

I have absolutely no problem with rabbits and game being shot. They have a great life in the outdoors, and then a very quick death. Much better than slaughter house in my opinion.

Now I won't post it here- because it is quite horrendous. One of the reasons UK people are up in arms about it at the moment, is a recent video published about a halal slaughter-house in the North of England. Those who want to see this, can Google it if they wish.

Indeed, STOP telling people what they can choose to eat or not. You have the choice to eat halal meat- and many want the choice not to. End of.

In the UK, around 50% of meat sold in supermarket and in restaurants, catering, is now halal. And I can assure you there are 1000s of people who are saying that proper labelling should be a legal obligation.

I think realistically, they're objecting to it being "a little bit Muslim".

The vast majority don't give a toss about the way a fast food animal lives most of its life, but they're suddenly protesting about how it's killed? It's complete and utter bollocks.

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There are many people out there who are becoming much more interested in the whole thing, proper husbandry, not pumping animals with antibiotics and feeding them on crap food (remember CJD, etc), want animals to not be transported in terrible conditions to being sold or slaughtered a long way from the farm, and want animals to be slaughtered quickly and as 'humanely' as possible- being stunned first. Are they snobs? Perhaps some of them are. Most of them agree that eating meat is part of a normal diet- but would prefer to eat less, and of better quality. It is actually not more expensive, as you eat less.

You don't give a toss- fine with me. I'll respect our choice. My choice, and that of many, is different- and all I am asking you, is to respect that.
Utter boll***s- perhaps, but my choice (bollocks are very popluar here- apparently very tasty). I could say I don't give a toss if industrial butchers put pork in your halal meat- but actually, I do mind- as I respect your choice (even if I do not understand the reasons, as modern pork is clean and safe. But it is, and should always be, your choice. Why should you choice be 'more valid' or 'less bollocks' than mine?).

5% of Muslims in the UK, and 50% halal meat, and not labelled as such- where is the choice in that?

However we feel about the issue- it is absolutely WRONG that customers should have halal meat enforced upon them. Like DB's snack above, all halal produce should be clearly labeled as such, both in retail and in restaurants. People should have the choice. Just like they should have the choice to eat pork, or horse, or whatever.

Basically, Arab and Turkish and Pakistani and Jewish Shops and Restaurants ARE HALAL (KOSHER), at least more or less. If you want PORK, you have to turn elsewhere. Many places do NOT declare HALAL/KOSHER as they do not adhere 100,0% to HALAL/KOSHER laws

However we feel about the issue- it is absolutely WRONG that customers should have halal meat enforced upon them. Like DB's snack above, all halal produce should be clearly labeled as such, both in retail and in restaurants. People should have the choice. Just like they should have the choice to eat pork, or horse, or whatever.

As the PRODUCTION of HALAL MEAT is not possible in Switzerland there are NO laws about it being labelled. While KALBSBRATWURST is NOT SCHWEINSBRATWURST it usually contains some pork. In case of sausages, the^MERGUEZ of course IS Halal, while most other sausages contain pork

Exactly.
Animals are a lot smarter than some EF posters based on the dumb posts we see on here.

The Lady dog I sometimes take out has a way to look at me so that I can read her lips wär dänn isch daa te Lööli and on Thursday I went with her accross a Bridge and intended to get down to the Riverside path, partially frozen. She stubbornly walked on towards the civilized roadside and looked at me with an Expression saying häsch äs au öppe igsee

This thread reminds me that I should make a visit to the Turkish market, where the meat is inexpensive and good. (And being that it's all Swiss meat, it's at least theoretically among the least-bad-for-the-animal meat.)

On a related note, they'd got the televisions running at Interdiscount this morning, showing a programme in which a butcher was dismembering the carcass of a cow. No detail was spared, and there were lots of close ups, including several shots of the presenter handling various bits of cow like the liver and the lights and so on.

I'd been standing there and enjoying it for quite a while before it dawned on me that it was a children's programme! I have to say that I was really quite impressed: it's really important that young people understand exactly what they're eating and how it comes to end up on their plates.

I have no idea if they showed the actual slaughter, but even if they hadn't it was pretty obvious what had just happened. Cool stuff!

Looking forward to a nice bit of pork for our tea tonight. I'm pretty sure that's not halal, even though there wasn't a label on it...

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As the PRODUCTION of HALAL MEAT is not possible in Switzerland there are NO laws about it being labelled. While KALBSBRATWURST is NOT SCHWEINSBRATWURST it usually contains some pork. In case of sausages, the^MERGUEZ of course IS Halal, while most other sausages contain pork

I have said before that it is not a problem in Switzerland, but is in the UK, re 50% of meat sold in supermarkets and catering being halal and not labeled- with large numbers saying that clear labeling should be their choice- for whatever reason. Why is that choice not respected, whereas the choice of not eating, say pork, or non-halal meat, should???

But you are wrong here- and I will repeat. Halal meat is produced in Switzerland, YES IT IS - but according to the Law, the animals have to be electrically stunned before the cut. It is accepted by the Islamic Foundation and Halal food authority. And it is NOT a bad compromise other- it is just that modern methods of stunning (bolt was clearly not allowed by the Koran)- allow the animal to be 'out of it' at the time of the cut and for just long enough to prevent some or all of the suffering. The Koran is clear about this being totally acceptable, as the animal is alive at the time of the cut. No compromise- just modern methods allowing stunning with death. I cannot fathom why this should be seen as a 'bad compromise'. But it is not my choice, so I will respect them- as long as mine is respected too. The fact my choice is not based on religion should make no difference at all.

And yes, I am totally aware that some people in the UK up in arms about halal meat, are using this as just another way at to express the islamophobia, which is despicable.

There is no humane slaughter DB- and I agree to a large extent. But animals killed in small local abattoirs with strict guidelines and supervision, is much better than industrial slaughter-houses in my book. Utopia- well, yes, perhaps- but we eat far too much meat- and if more people chose to eat less, but better quality meat, be it related to husbandry, feeds, transport, slaughter- it would not necessarily be more expensive. Tons and tons of meat is thrown away every day because of greed, and BOGOF offers- and because the vast majority of people in the West just won't eat any kind of offal these days, which is a disatrous waste.

Our grandchildren go to the local butcher (in the UK) every Saturday, and they have been made familiar with what meat is and how it is produced and killed since they were babies. They eat less meat, but only from the local butcher's and know exactly where it comes from, etc.

They chose the Christmas Turkey, and visited it regularly until the day it was prepared to come over for Christmas here. So yes, totally agree kids should be aware of where their food comes from, including meat.

There is no humane slaughter DB- and I agree to a large extent. But animals killed in small local abattoirs with strict guidelines and supervision, is much better than industrial slaughter-houses in my book.

Not sure what you mean by "better". It's like saying that being stabbed in the eye with a fork is better than being poked in the ear with a knitting needle.

It's not just you: I hear a disturbing number of people trot out the old cliche about "small family-run abattoirs" as if they are not, somehow, horrendous houses of death and gore. They are. They all are.

As I said before, I've watched countless animals slaughtered. They were slaughtered in small, family-run abattoirs, not big industrial facilities. The animals in the stalls were terrified, they struggled and kicked as they were driven into the main part of the slaughterhouse. There was blood everywhere - frequently hosed down, of course, for reasons of hygiene, but it comes out at quite a lick when you slit the throat of a several-hundred-kilo beast, so you're going to get a few splatters up the walls. The slaughtermen were not cruel - they were just blokes doing a job - but they weren't surgeons either. There is nothing "nice" or "respectful" about killing a living, breathing mammal.

I think it's important that we be honest about this. Articles in the Guardian Lifestyle magazine are one thing, but the reality of meat production is something else completely. It's a nasty, nasty business, whether it's performed by Ahmed the halal butcher, Trevor the local slaughterman or Employee nr. 742 of Deathandgoreindustries Ltd.

I'm ok with that. I grew up with it, and nothing about it horrifies me. But let's not kid ourselves to save our consciences.

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I eat halal meat, from the Turkish butchers in Oerlikon. I can't get neck of lamb, shanks and other bits and bobs from my local Migros and if I order it from the butchers, it costs a small fortune. I was presented with a laminated certificate that the meat was Swiss or from Australia/New Zealand and it was stunned before being slaughtered. I see no difference in that to any other slaughtering methods.

As I'm freely going into a Turkish butchers it's obvious to me that the meat is halal. However I would also like to have this information when buying in a supermarket and where the meat was slaughtered.

I intentionally did not post the recent video on the halal butchers in Bradford- because it is disgusting and too graphic- and also because it hopefully does not represent the norm for halal butchery- and was used, perhaps, by some with all the wrong motives or intentions (as of course you have just done). But you just can't help yourself, can you? Sick. There is defo legislation about slaughter in the UK- but far too few inspectors, and their numbers have been cut again.

Totally gratuitous and should be removed asap. Thanks. Which is why I will not 'retaliate' by posting the awful video of the halal slaughter men's disgusting behaviour. Can't believe you stoop so so low- (edited) really. Sad and pathetic, tragic even.

If you go back to earlier threads- I explained that this would not happen here, at our local abattoir in Pont-de-Martel- and 1 of the many reasons why meat is more expensive here- as well executed slaughter with proper and careful stunning 1 animal at a time, does take more time and skill. All slaughter-house staff in Switzerland get proper training via an apprenticeship.