So back before the degeneration of this thread (Moderators please close this!), someone said that a small handgun would not help with a bear unless it was a 44 mag or something.

From the authority of being a hunter, first responder, and a seasonal butcher for the past 10 years, I beg to differ.

As a hunter, I have seen a deer felled with a BB gun. Head Shot. Dead as soon as it hit the ground. It wasn't a walmart pellet gun, but a $300 number from a gun show.

As a first responder, I have seen things that killed both humans and animals that you would be surprised at. Life is fragile.

As a butcher, we kill full grown steers (much thicker skull than a bear) with a .22 mag. Well, technically, the bullet just renders them unconscious until we slit the throat and bleed them out. So they really die of blood loss. But the point is that it fells them.

All this being said is that a trusty 9mm is completely capable of felling a bear. And a 44 mag or rifle, with their greater power, wouldn't help at all if you can't get them out or know how to use them.

Pepper spray or bear spray is meant for close quarters. Hand guns are meant for medium distances. Rifles are best used at farther distances.

A rifle would be practically pointless to carry unless you were actually hunting.

Bear Spray, when the charging bear is that close, is probably going to be the last thing you are thinking of as yellow liquid rushes down your leg.

A good handgun could discourage a bear even if not directly aimed at the bear. The extremely loud noise is likely to stop it in its tracks. If not, aim for the eyes and don't miss. If you are going to miss, and know it or are afraid of it, go to the gun range more often and become proficient.

There is nothing more dangerous than a person with a gun who doesn't know how to use it, completely and utterly. Not even a person who does know how to use it is proverbially more dangerous than an idiot with a gun. NOTE: 95% of gun owners IMHO... are idiots. Seriously. I say that even about my own father, who owns many amazing guns whiles I only own a handful. My father doesn't practice or remember half of the things he thinks he does. Using a gun is not like the idiom about riding a bike. You HAVE to keep it up every week (at the least) for the rest of your life.

So, if you want to protect yourself from "predators" and aren't willing to visit your local gun range and practice two or three times a week, squeezing off several hundred pretty expensive rounds (especially these days), don't bother with a gun. Get bear spray and an air horn and hope that you don't freeze up if and when the time comes (which for 99% of you, it won't.)

Like I said in my first post on this thread. Carrying a gun is a responsibility. Most people who own guns, unfortunately, like most things in their lives, don't live up to that responsibility. And that is basically 98% of the damn NRA, who, I think, should stick to the Rifles their organization is named after and STFU about handgun regulations, which need to be about 1000X more restrictive.

I can't wait until the gun regulations are as strict as in Europe. Guns there are not illegal. But to own one is extremely, extremely difficult: BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY MAKE YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT COMPLELTELY AND UTTERLY. Even in Switzerland, where everyone over a certain age is just handed a military grade rifle and ammunition to keep in their house. They get the training they need. Not here. But that is another story.

So back before the degeneration of this thread (Moderators please close this!), someone said that a small handgun would not help with a bear unless it was a 44 mag or something.

BS, someone recently emptied a whole magazine on an AR-15 into a bear here, it didn't kill it instantly, it went off and died much later than it was shot, there's a reason we have "bear guns" up in Alaska, it's to drop bears instantly so they don't overrun you while they are injured.

Handguns kill humans by making a wide channel, aided by the expansion, ends up being half an inch or more, this causes extreme blood pressure loss, and unconsciousness. Adding to this that humans are fairly fragile, breaking bones is fairly easy in the process and humans tend to be more "aware" of their injuries and act less on instinct to kill.

Rifles use a much smaller round that creates a shockwave due to the high velocity. If the round is too small, like the 5.56 mentioned above, it will fragment when it hits the animal. Great for humans, creating multiple wound channels, but much less effective on animals with their thick hides, skulls, and muscle tissues. This is why the guy had to dump 30 rounds into it to mortally wound it, and even then it didn't kill it outright. In this sense, a .300 winchester magnum is usually the round of choice up here, great power, penetration, etc. Works on a wide variety of animals, like bears, moose, wolves, etc. Remember that even when wounded, animals will often still come at you, operating on instinct and their remaining senses, even after being shot.

Some rounds are especially poor, like .45acp (I have one of these), they are big fat slow rounds, meant to offset the issue of the small wound channel in humans due to military rules that prevent expanding rounds from being used, so by being so large they create that bigger channel, but due to low energy they don't penetrate very much. .45s have been stopped by heavy clothes, in fact I tested them and was shooting some old harddrives and they failed to penetrate the metal discs, they would just end up being "captured".

So yes, if you walk up to a moose or a sedated bear with a 9mm, you can probably drop them with a head shot. The round has a lot of energy at that distance and you can aim center-mass of the head so it doesn't bounce off as a grazing shot. This is not realistic in the backcountry if you are faced with an aggressive animal. You won't be able to get that close and a head shot is ridiculous to plan for, especially on a moving target. You need real penetrating power to create that wound channel big and deep enough.

This is why in Alaska a .44 magnum with a 300gr round is considered the minimum for protection against bears and moose. As a side note, usually the bears want nothing to do with you and will move out the the way or to somewhere else before you get to where they are. Moose don't do this and stand completely still until you get too close, then they charge you. Moose are generally more dangerous than the bears.

Extremely loud noise like handgun rounds will stop a bear in it's tracks? It's likely the bear won't understand the noise (they don't really learn much about handguns) and be momentarily a little confused, but continue with whatever it's doing.

And I felled a turkey with a pellet (air) gun. Doesn't mean I'd use that if I was trying to protect myself from turkeys (if turkeys were actually a threat). You seem to be equating walking up and popping a round between the eyes with actual self-defense in the wilderness. Not sure how that's the same thing. Yes, you can find bears killed by 9mm. You can find people that survived without ever wearing a seatbelt as a kid, you can find people that rode on the British comet airliners, but that doesn't make any of those things a good idea just because they worked once.

aim for the eyes and don't miss

Lol, this is not the zoo we are taking about. So I guess cops always shoot people in the eyes when they are using deadly force? Soldiers too?

"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

Well you had a great response (and that is what we are looking for with these Threads..) So now would NOT be the time to close it...

---ALSO was that really NOT supposedly somewhat true??

I have seen (and heard) reports of people high on drugs (or bath salts??) who get shot with .22's, .380's, and even 9mm's and STILL KEEP COMING!!! [/I]

Yep, if it doesn't hit a critical organ and either doesn't penetrate, doesn't expand enough, or is too small to begin with, it won't cause the loss of blood pressure that causes unconsciousness, hence, they'll keep coming, sometimes even if an organ other than the heart or brain is hit.

"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

Back in the 80's as a kid. I had to complete a two day hunters safety course before I could hunt. Haven't hunted since the late 80's. To this day I would have to show my hunters education card before a state hunting license will be issued. Every year will still have hunters shot. Every year livestock get shot. How does one confuse a half ton cow with a deer anyways?

My point is. I can easisly purchase a gun from a pawn shop or person off the street any day. If I lose my hunters education card. I have to contact the state. Wait a week for a new card to be sent. Then I can purchase a hunting license. People should have to register every fire arm and have to take gun safety classes.

He had the FBI, National Guard, State Police, Marshall Service, etc. looking for him with Helicopters, Bloodhounds, Heat Seeking Equipment, etc.. AND NO ONE COULD FIND THIS GUY in the woods!!

Isn't this area home to one of (if not the best, real mountain biking trails in the Country?? If not the entire planet???)

so this is definitely about Mountain Biking (and being deep in the woods where anyone can run into this guy!!)

I am sure everyone is familiar with the saying, "Head for the Hills"--

well the one thing criminals know is if they do not want to be found (head to the woods...)

I have seen stories like this (and one where a child abductor kept his victims in a cave he built in the woods!!) Imagine running up to one of these guys at the trailhead (and you got NO chance with a whistle!!)

Imagine you are just out wanting to go on a nice ride one day for some exercise and fresh air (or trying to beat your STRAVA times on a trail) and all of a sudden you have NO IDEA who is 'laying' for you behind that tree (waiting to basically do you some serious harm, or possibly ending your life) because they know how much heroin they could buy selling your 5K bike (and your cell phone, credit cards)---maybe even get your keys ad steal your car also?? knowing it could be days (or weeks, IF EVER) that someone finds out what happened??

---So my main point with this post is just what I had been saying about this very same thing when I started Mounting Biking (and the crime and weirdo's I have seen on the trails..)

Wasn't there this one guy in Cali. who chased Mountain Bikers with machetes (for years) attacking them?

Also in Philly at THE WISS some fool (for years) would have his dogs bite mountain bikers (PMBA would always cover that)

--So case in point, Crime is about one thing, opportunity!! Sooner or later with more people out riding trails, and more video cameras everywhere, criminals will get wise as to there being more opportunities to get over on someone on the trails...

That is why here in Philly they target the cars like they do (because they know no one is around, no one cares if someone's alarm goes off, and by the time someone can react it is too late)---

--p.s. they say in this video there are a few thefts (PLEASE!!!!)--there was a stretch a few years ago that every time I came to ride (5 times a week for 3 months) upon returning to my car I Always saw someone's window broken (or car doors open)---I even took a video on my cell looking into a car that had all 4 doors open (looking to see if someone was hurt)--then called the police... that car had nothing left inside (and was a new car..)

Yep, if it doesn't hit a critical organ and either doesn't penetrate, doesn't expand enough, or is too small to begin with, it won't cause the loss of blood pressure that causes unconsciousness, hence, they'll keep coming, sometimes even if an organ other than the heart or brain is hit.

I find it amusing that this topic (considering the other thread as well) has gone from how/reasoning for why to carry or not carry, while riding, into a caliber debate. Not much different from every gun forum thread evolution in regard to this topic.