I thought I would bump up this thread to talk about DF41, since my cluster brother Cooper, kit 57563, Ysearch 4BN3G, got a DF41+ result a couple of days ago. So, it looks very likely I will get a DF41+ result, too (I hope).

Of the 15 men currently in the DF41+ category in the R-L21 Plus Project (I am leaving out for now those who have tested L744+ or L745+), here are what they list as their ancestral homelands:Scotland = 5Ireland = 4Northern Ireland = 2United Kingdom = 2Isle of Man = 1England = 1

The two who list "United Kingdom" are Americans who are not currently able to get their y lines out of North America but who have British surnames.

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

I'm trying to see if we can get L563 on the isogg tree, so there are some DF41 tests pending for people who are very likely DF41+.

I think the main reason we don't see too many people testing past L21 is that FTDNA's haplotree is terribly outdated. So is the deep clade test. This is how FTDNA (still) describe the deep clade test:

Quote

The Deep Clade test will determine what your assignment is within the Haplogroup tree. The lab will start with a prediction of your haplogroup assignment, and then test however many SNPs are necessary within the tree in order to determine your subclade assignment.

I thought it sounded like a good deal when I ordered it one and a half year ago. When it was done, I knew that I was L21*. I started to look for more information and soon found that I was not L21* at all. I was only L21+. Then I started ordering SNPs from the draft tree to try to get further down the branches of the tree. Many of the tests I ordered had a 0% chance of testing positive, but I did not know that back then. It all comes down to lack of good information.

I think what has been done to reorganize the R-L21 project is brilliant! I believe new members are a lot more likely to do advanced SNP testing. And I really hope that people who want to test but feel confused contact either a project admin or the L21 yahoo group.

I've contacted quite a few people with testing suggestions and most of them are very grateful when getting advice and end up ordering the SNP.

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies. IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The 77 figure I had was from the R-L21 Plus Project, so obviously some folks who are not in the project have tested for DF41. 20 out of 101 is not a bad frequency, but I am guessing many of those who tested probably did so because they are in the same cluster with some of the guys who had already tested DF41+, so that 20 out of 101 is not purely random. Otherwise DF41 would account for nearly 20% of all L21! I don't think that's the case.

I'm also guessing a lot of that L744, L746, L745 testing comes by way of the Stewarts.

Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies. IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.

I'm interested in your view that the surname Stevens is connected to Clan McTavish, Heber. I'm not sure that's right in my particular case, although I would be mightily pleased if it were. My matches seem to point to the West Midlands of England, but admittedly most of them can't get their y lines out of North America. I do have a solid 65/67 match with a man whose family came from Shropshire near the Welsh border. He himself was born in Worcester. That match is the biggest clue I have, although we don't share the same surname. He has no matches in his own surname project, however. Most of his closest matches are Stevenses and Stephenses.

A funny coincidence regarding DF41 is that one of my 2nd great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have a bunch of the L745+ Stewarts as Family Finder matches.

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies. IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.

I'm interested in your view that the surname Stevens is connected to Clan McTavish, Heber. I'm not sure that's right in my particular case, although I would be mightily pleased if it were. My matches seem to point to the West Midlands of England, but admittedly most of them can't get their y lines out of North America. I do have a solid 65/67 match with a man whose family came from Shropshire near the Welsh border. He himself was born in Worcester. That match is the biggest clue I have, although we don't share the same surname. He has no matches in his own surname project, however. Most of his closest matches are Stevenses and Stephenses.

A funny coincidence regarding DF41 is that one of my 2nd great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have a bunch of the L745+ Stewarts as Family Finder matches.

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies. IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.

There are fairly large Genetic Distances between DF41+ clusters. For example I have a GD of 20 @67 with Chris who is 1426c (Galloway origin). Likewise with MacMillian (Hebridies) I have a GD of 18 @67. DF41 is old, it well predates surname formation in either Ireland or Scotland, probably on order of at least 1,000 years.

Actually I be interested in seeing what GD I have with Rich and Cooper. With them added in it looks like DF41 is considerably older then we thought or so my reading of Mark (Jost) TMRCA calculations go.

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

I sent out a bulk email to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who don't yet have a subclade and have not yet tested for DF41 urging them to test for it. The response has been excellent thus far. There are a lot of new DF41 test orders in time to go to the lab this Wednesday.

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul(DF41+)

That's not too bad. How many L21+ samples did they have?

I think Casey's analysis (at the links posted by Heber above) may be a little dated now, even though he published it in July of this year. DF41 may be older and bigger than he thought, since he based his ideas on what was known then.

Here's something I noticed: all but one of the guys in the DF41+ category have 534<=14, yet all of those who are L744+, including the L745+ guys, have 534>=15.

I don't know how significant that is.

MacMillan, kit 47694, is the one guy in the DF41+ category who has 534=15. If he tests L744+, that would be interesting.

The McMillans were another great Gaelic Clan from the Hebrides, their name meaning "son of the monk".

"The MacMillans are one of a number of clans - including the MacKinnons, the MacQuarries, and the MacPhees - descended from Airbertach, a Hebridean prince of the old royal house of Moray who according to one account was the great-grandson of King Macbeth.""Bishop Cormac's son Gilchrist or, in Gaelic, Gille Chrisosd, the prognenitor of the Clann an Mhaoil, was a religious man like his father; and it was because of this that he wore the tonsure which gave him the nickname Maolan or Gillemaol. As a Columban priest, his head would have been shaved over the front of his head in the style of St. John, rather than at the vertex of head (the dominant style in The Church of Rome). This distinctive tonsure is described in Gaelic as 'Mhaoillan'. The name MacMillan thus literally means, "son of the tonsure"."

It will be facinating to see how all of these Clan relationships stack up with further testing.

I sent out a bulk email to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who don't yet have a subclade and have not yet tested for DF41 urging them to test for it. The response has been excellent thus far. There are a lot of new DF41 test orders in time to go to the lab this Wednesday.

That's great to hear. I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.

For example it seems to pull in a number of men who belong to following of Mikewww's clusters

13-1511A-T2 -- Irish Type II -- think they are DF41-

253-1711*/ 253-1716 -- I'm assuming these should test for Z253

49-23-2123 -- DF49+/DF23+ perhaps?

I would imagine the only way to get better picture is to get more of the people in that NJ tree to test DF41, a DF41- result is just as informative as a DF41+ result that's for sure.

Anyways some interesting ones that should probably order DF41

N42297 Issemann (France) -- appears to cluster with MacMillian who is DF41+ , is in the L21 project122895 Dane -- appears to cluser with MacMillian and Issemann, also in L21 project

Nearby is also 208773 Reith (Germany) however his "cluster label" is [21-314-P*] (implies DF21?), he is DF13+ tested and in L21 project.

Over beside me (Duffy -- 176148) I see N91203 Tawier (England) and N26237 Lurvey, both are also in L21 project.

I think the approach to take is to "nibble" along the edges and try and get men who are close to confirmed DF41+ men to test, the more of these we get the higher my confidence in any future NJ trees will be.