Next-as we have big blackboard, I want to explain those
characters. This is-those characters are, of course, Chinese
characters, and-but Japanese people read those characters in-in
Japanese, you know, without changing the order of characters. How
we read those characters is-this is one word, shidai:

This is, you know, Chinese way of reading. But we-Japanese
people read Chinese sentences like this:

[Line 17] Shidai no sho onozukara fukusu,

[Line 18] ko no sono haha wo uru ga gotoshi.

[Line 19] Hi wa nesshi kaze wa doyo,

[Line 20] mizu wa uruoi chi wa kengo.

And we put Shidai no-Shidai no sho: "Nature of,"
you know, "of-of" is no. "Nature of four elements."
Onozukara, "naturally." Fukusu or "resume."

And this [gotoshi] is "like." And this [ko] is a
"child." This [uru]is "have" or "obtain." And "this"
[sono] is that or his "mother" [haha].

[Line 18] ko no sono haha wo uru ga gotoshi.

The order of words is different from-Japanese order of words
different from Chinese order of words, which is like-something
like, you know, English. So, you know-so we call those words
tenyoha [okurigana][2] which is peculiar to Japanese language.

And fire heat, the wind blow; and water wet, and earth is solid
[taps something like the tatami with his hand].

So we read Chinese scripture in two ways: sometime in Japanese,
you know, this kind of scripture we read in two ways. Sometime in
Japanese like this, you know. Our eyes should go [laughs]-go back
and forth like this-Shidai no sho onozukara fukusu, ko no sono
haha wo uru ga gotoshi-we read. Up and down. Sometime, you
know, this kind of-this word may be two [or] three lines ahead. So
we-after reading two-three lines we have to come back [to] this
[character]. Rather complicated, but we have been doing-we have
been reading in that way when we read Chinese language and Chinese
books.

Tonight I must explain from here [the blackboard]. Shidai
is "four elements." Buddhists, you know, understand-Buddhists have
the idea of elements. Elements of various being. We count four
elements, you know, like fire, water, and wind, and earth. Wind,
fire, water, [and earth]. So those four elements-nature, you know,
this elements has its own nature. We shouldn't say so, but
tentatively we think those four elements has its-their nature.

Fire-nature of fire is to make things, you know, perfect, you
know, to-like you boil something, you know, by heating things,
things will be more, you know, mixed up [blended?] or
something-more perfect, anyway, we say "perfection."

And wind brings things mature, you know, wind. I don't know why,
but [laughs] wind nature, you know, encourage things to be more
mature. Little bit different from this, you know [compares
characters for fire and wind].[3] This [air][4] is more organic, you know, activity. This [fire][5] has more chemical, you
know, activity.

[FIRE WIND WATER EARTH]

And this-water-nature of water is to contain things in it, you
know. In water we [laughs]-wherever you go, there is water. So we
rather think opposite way: Water contains everything, you know.
Instead of saying tree has, you know, in the bark of the tree there
is water, we may say, but the water contains bark of the
tree-leaves and everything. So water is something great, big being
in which everything exist. We exist in water.

And nature of earth is to-solid nature is the element of earth.
Earth does not mean "land"-but some solid nature of the material is
earth.

So things, you know-we-if you-according to Buddhists, you know,
things will be-if you divide things, you know, [into] smallest
piece imaginable, you know, like-I don't know English term for
that. Do you see? Yeah.

Student: Atomic?

SR: Yeah. Something like that.

Student: Molecule.

Yeah. More- Yeah, "atom," maybe. But, you know, that is not
final, you know, final piece. That final piece [is]
called gokumi. Gokumi is the smallest piece
imaginable, you know. That final being is-consists of-has
four-those four natures. So we say final atom is consists of those
four elements. So this is-it is something like, you know, modern
physics, you know. I-I ca- [partial word]-I don't know how to
explain it, you know, because I don't know the proper words for
that. Plus and minus and, you know, how final atom is consist of is
plus [positive valence] and minus [negative valence]. And those
are, you know, something like that.

And we-the str- [partial word]-it is strange enough to say-they
have same idea, you know-you-modern physics, you know, thinks final
being is-has no weight or no size, you know. It is just
current.

We-we Buddhists think in that way. Those-although final being is
consist of those-has those four natures, and accordingly we can say
it con- [partial word]-final piece is-consists of-consist of four
elements, but-but that is-that is not something solid being. When
we reach to this, you know, nature of being, that is just, you
know, emptiness, we say.

So, you know, when we come to this idea, we come to the idea of
emptiness. It is not-those elements is not something which exist
actually [as a] materialistic being. It is something, you know,
which is not material, which is just energy. So we call it ku
[gokumi?].

So this is four elements [points to fire, water, wind, and
earth], but we [Buddhists] add one more. And we say five elements.
Five [Four] elements has, you know, add one more which is
empty-empty nature. [Writes on board: [6]

Line 19 Hi wa nesshi kaze wa doyo,

Line 20 mizu wa uruoi chi wa kengo.]

So that is empty-all empty [laughs].

Even though it is empty, you know, from emptiness those nature
will be appear, you know, will come into being. And as soon as
those four na- [partial word]-be- [partial word]-nature come into
being, we form idea of elements or final piece. And the material is
consist of those elements. That is Buddhistic understanding of
being. So-

It looks like we are explaining-talking about some material, but
when we come to this, you know, idea of elements, that element is
not just material. It is both spiritual and material. And when
thinking, you know, mind is also-when we come to this element,
thinking mind is included. So we say it is empty.

So when we say "emptiness"-emptiness-the idea of emptiness
include both material and spiritual. Or material and-mind and
objects. Subjective world and objective world. And emptiness is
final being to which we-our thinking mind cannot reach.

So, Shidai no sho-nature of-nature-those [four]
nature-"nature of four elements naturally," you know, "in
itself"-you can say "[are] empty" [writes on board], but here
he[7] says "resume to
its own nature," you know. It means "come to emptiness."

[Line 18] Just like a children has his mother.

When, you know, there is children, there must be his mother, you
know. Without children [laughs], there is no-without mother there
is no children. That children is here means mother is here. That
emptiness is here means four nature is here, you know. If four
nature-even though four nature is there, that is nothing but
tentative formation of the final emptiness. That is same thing as
"a child has its-his own mother."

All those, you know, four sentence[8]-finally, you know, what does it mean
is, you know, talking about, you know, independency of being.
Although there is many, you know, elements, those elements
originally-naturally co- [partial word]-resume to its nature. So
although there is-there are many things, they are-each one of them
are independent. And a child is independent, even though they
have-he has his own mother. And fire is independent with its nature
of heat; and wind is independent with its nature of moving; and
water is independent with its nature of moisture; the earth is
independent with its nature of solidness. So everything is
independent, you know, it means. And this four sentences introduce,
you know-follow the ten sentences which is talking about truth of
independen- [partial word]-independency.

In this Sandokai, you know,
Sekito-zenji-Sekito-zenji-Sekito explained the reality in two ways.
Now he is explaining reality from the viewpoint of dependency. Four
elements are independent, although it has its own source. A child
is independent, although he has his mother. Fire is independent
with its nature of heat. Water is independent with its nature of
moisture. And earth is independent with its nature of
solidness.

Drew together. Characteristics of the four elements resume its
self. "Resume its original nature," maybe, which is emptiness.
And:

[Line 18] Like a child returning to its mother.

This is [laughs] rather poor, you know, translation maybe. "Like
a child has its mother" is more accurate. That there is
child means that there is mother, you know. That is what it
means.

The heat of fire, the moving wind, the water wet, and the solid
earth. It is better to put period here [Line 20, after "solid
earth"[10]] and
maybe "Like a child has its mother" [Line 18]. And
heat-fire-element of fire has its nature of heat. The element of
wind has its nature of moving. Or having fire-what [laughs]-I don't
know how to say-the heat of fire, the moving wind-or "element of
fire with its nature of heat, the element of wind with its nature
of moving, the element of water with its nature of wet, the element
of earth with its nature of solidness-are all independent," maybe.
If you put period here [after "solid earth"] and-mis- [partial
word]-[add to Line 17] "has its own nature," then maybe, you know,
it is-it makes clear sense.

[Line 21] Eyes to see, sound to hear-

This is for next day, but I will repeat-I will read it-the
connection, you know, so that you can understand this sentence
better.

[Line 21] Eyes to see, sound to hear, and smells-

[Line 22] The sour and salty taste on the tongue.

[Line 23] But in each related things,

[Line 24] As leaves grow from roots,

[Line 25] End and beginning returns to the source.

[Line 26] "High" and "low" are used respectively:

And all those, you know [colons] [taps several times], better to
put period here [after "respectively" etc.].

And-one, two, three, four, five, six-[Lines 21-26] those six
sentences means the idea of, you know, understanding of
independency. Things-things exist in two ways: one is independency,
and the other is dependency or interrelated[ness]. But although
they are interrelated, they are independent, you know. You-each one
of you are independent, but you are related with each other. That
is, you know- Even though you are related with each other, you are
independent. So you can say both ways.

So this-all those sentences are expressing the idea of reality
from the side of dependence-independence [corrected self].
Mmm.

So, you know-mmm-do you understand [laughs] what he
means? Usually, you know, when we say "independent," you know
[laughs], you have no idea of dependency. That is non-Buddhistic
understanding. Buddhists, you know, always, think, you
know-understand reality, you know. We know reality, you
know, we understand things completely so we will not be mixed up.
We will not be confused by saying "independency" or "dependency."
If someone said, "Everything is independent," [we say], "Okay,
yeah, that is so." And if some other person may say, "That
is-things are interrelated," [we say], "Oh, that is okay." Both is
okay. We just-we understand both side, so whatever you say, that is
okay.

But if someone stick to some i- [partial word], you know,
one-sided idea, you know, we may say "No!" [Laughs.] If you
say everything is independent, "No!" If you stick to the idea [of]
independency of the being, only, you know, stick to the idea of
independency, I will say to him, "No! You are wrong." And if
he stick to-if someone else stick to the idea of independency, you
know, then we will say, "No! You are wrong."

There is many koans like this. "If the final karma," you know,
"fire burned everything up, at that time whether buddha-nature
[laughs] [will] still [be] there or not?"[11] That is question. And sometime he
[the teacher] said, "Yes, it exist." Some other time, some monk
came and asked him, "When the karma fire burned everything up, then
what will become of the buddha-nature?" "It will not exist."
[Laughs.] Both is true. People may ask him, you know, "Before
you-then why did you say it will not-it will exist?" you know. Then
he will get a big slap. "What are you talking about? Don't you
understand what I mean?" you know. "'Buddha-nature will not exist'
is right; 'will exist' is right." From the, you know, viewpoint of
independency, you know, everything exist with its
buddha-nature-even whatever happen to this world.

But even so, you know, nothing exist when we see from the
viewpoint of utter darkness or absolute. Then nothing exist. That
which exist is nothingness or darkness, in which maybe things will
exist, but what you see or what you say about it is nothing. There
is no way to explain things individually.

This is, you know, this is just intellectual, you know,
explanation. But here we must have actual feeling. What kind of
feeling you will have about things you see, you know-what kind of
difference you have between, you know, from the understanding of
usual person of just understanding of being, should be, you know,
discussed more.

If we see things, you know, which happened in that-at that time,
when we see, you will appreciate things which you see, and you will
appreciate one by one everything. There you have pure gratitude.
Even though you are seeing-observing one piece of flower-one-just
one flower, that one flower include everything. It is not just
flower; it is the absolute itself; it is Buddha himself. We see in
that way. But at the same time, at that time we have, you know-that
which exist is just flower, and no one to see or no-nothing to be
seen. That which exist is just flower.

That is the feeling we have in our practice and in our everyday
activity. Wherever you work, you have that kind of feeling: a
continuity of that kind of refreshed, pure gratitude. So to see,
you know, to treat things is to treat Buddha's equipment for us. We
understand in this way. [Sentence finished. Tape turned
over.]

But when we memorize something, when we think about something,
you know, in term of duality, we observe things, you know,
intellectually and understand things intellectually. Even though we
understand intellectually, we do not stick to the idea. That
understanding should be improved, you know, day by day by our pure
thinking. And we do not stick to old, you know, old stump [laughs],
you know, stump of the tree. We do not sit on the same stump
[laughs] always.[12]

We say, "You cannot catch fish in the same place." Today
[laughs] fortunately you could catch a big fish at some certain
place, but tomorrow you should, you know, fish [in] some other
place. Or, you know, we say, or we say, you know, "to cut
[notch]-to cut a boat to remember, you know, where we are" [laughs,
laughter]. We are, you know-boat is actually going, so even though
you cut, you know, a boat to remember a place-something beautiful.
"Oh! There was something beautiful. This-and we should remember
that beautiful thing-flower." Even though you cut the boat, edge of
the-what do you call the-

Several students: Channel. Railing.

Suzuki-roshi: Rail? -maybe railing of the boat, you know,
it doesn't help, because boat is going [laughs]. But we, you know,
we usually do so, you know: "Oh! That was very good." And we cut
the railing of the boat to remember something [laughs].

This kind of teaching suggest, you know, this kind of foolish,
you know-our foolishness and what is actual Buddhist life. We
should not wait here, you know, sitting [laughs] on the same stump
all day. They will not come to the same place, with a gun, sitting
on the stump [laughs]. It's very foolish [laughs]. Good example of,
you know, thinking mind. Even though, you know-even [if] it is so,
we should appreciate what you see right now. "Oh! That beautiful
flower." You know, we should appreciate. We should have full
appreciation of it, but we should not cut the rail-railing of the
boat.

Or we should not wait, you know, maybe, for her coming, sitting
[laughs], standing at the same place. She may come by this time of
the day, but [laughs] sometimes she may come, but sometimes she
doesn't come. I have something like this experience. I would stand
up, you know-I would wait for her coming [laughs], sitting
[laughs]. Sometime she may come; sometime, you know, she may not.
So, you know, if she come, we are lucky. If she doesn't, that's
okay [laughs, laughter]. If she come, you know, you are lucky. If
she doesn't [laughs], you shouldn't complain [laughs,
laughter].

Do you have some question? Hai.

Student A [Reb Anderson]: Last week you said that if we
understand our closeness, our dependence with other things, then we
are independent.

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm.

Reb: Are we independent even if we don't understand
this?

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah, it is so, but for you I don't know.
You know, if you-even though you don't understand it, but if you
admit this truth, you know, it is so. So you cannot-you will not
stick to some idea-one-only one idea. Or you will not be so
arrogant, you know. Independent and interdependent. So, if you, you
know, if you don't have actual close feeling to others, but if you
know this fact, even intellectually, you know, you will not
make-you will not make so big mistake, I don't think.

It is so-actually it is so, but the point is you don't feel so,
you know, you don't understand in that way. So we-here there
is something which we-which is very important [holding up or
pointing to something?]. This kind of, you know-when we talk about
this way, it means that we talk about things as if I am completely
enlightened person [laughs]. For enlightened person, this is very
true, but for the people who is not enlightened, this is just talk,
you know.

So when our practice follow this kind of understanding, that is
true, you know, Buddhism. It should not be just intellectual
understanding. But even, you know, [if] you practice hard, without
this kind of understanding, your practice may be very, you know-it
doesn't make much sense. Your practice is still involved in the
idea of somethingness. Hai.

Student B: What's missing? You said that for an
enlightened person that's very true-

Suzuki-roshi: Uh-huh.

Student B: -and for an unenlightened person it's just
talk.

Suzuki-roshi: Uh-huh.

Student B: What's missing-

Suzuki-roshi: [Speaking simultaneously with student.]
What is missing?

Student B: -for an unenlightened person?

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah. The practice is missing. Practice is
missing. So only when you practice zazen hard, this is true. And
even though, at the same time, even though you practice hard, you
know, your practice will not be always complete, you know. So at
that time, there is big gap between the truth and your actual
understanding-understand- [partial word]-actually experience. It
doesn't, you know, go together. Your intellectual understanding is
high, but your practice may be low.

So just intellectual-to have intellectual understanding is easy,
we say, but actual practice-emotional-and more emotional practice
is difficult. To feel in that way is difficult. So we say
intellectual-and to have-to destroy the understanding-intellectual
understanding of something is easy, you know. Or to have
understanding of nothingness is easy. Intellectually it is easy.
But emotionally it is not so difficult [easy?]. We easily stick to
something. So, you know, it is-we say to-it is-emotional, you know,
difficulty is as hard as to split a lotus in two, you know. Even
though you split in two, the strings [roots?] [laughs]-long string
will follow and you cannot get rid of it. Still string is
here.

But thinking, you know, difficulties-intellectual difficulty is
as easy as break a stone in two. [Makes whacking noise.] Nothing
left, you know.

Student C [Bill Shurtleff?]: Does that mean that if a
person sees one person doing something to another person that's
hurting the other person-let's say that I see someone doing
something that's hurting another person.

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm.

Student C: And I feel emotionally upset by that hurting
[?]-that actually I'm not seeing clearly and I'm not understanding
what's happening.

Suzuki-roshi: Actually, what is the point of the
question?

Student C: The question is: The only reason that I'm
upset when I see someone doing something that looks like it's
hurting another person is that-

Suzuki-roshi: You-when you doing helping something or
someone else?

Student C: I see a situation in which it looks to me as
if one person is hurting another person. And I become upset in that
situation.

Suzuki-roshi: Oh, I see.

Student C: The question is: Is that-I'm becoming upset
because I'm not seeing the situation as it actually is, and that if
I were seeing it as it actually is, I wouldn't be emotionally
upset. That's my question.

Suzuki-roshi: Oh, I see. But that is very difficult
question to answer, you know, because, you know, it is difficult to
know whether one is helping the other with-in some appropriate way
or not, you know? So if it is not appropriate, you will be upset,
you know. At least you will worry, you know. When one is helping
appropriate, you know, when you upset-sometimes that happens, you
know. If, you know, you-if someone is helping your girlfriend in
proper way [laughs], you may be-anyway you will be upset, you know.
[Laughs, laughter.] That kind of thing happens pretty often, so it
is very difficult [laughs, laughter] to answer.

Student C: Roshi, my question is more that a person who
really sees things clearly-is there no situation that would upset
him emotionally?

Suzuki-roshi: I don't think so, you know, emotionally,
you know. But "upset" I say, or you say, but that feeling-there is
big difference, you know, in that feeling too. Maybe Buddha will be
upset, you know, easily-quite easily. But when he is upset, you
know, even though he's upset he's not upset because-just because of
him or because of his attachment or anything like that. And
sometime he will be very angry [laughs], you know. Anger is al-
[partial word]-allowed when that is Buddha's anger, you know, when
he is angry when he should be angry. But that anger is not exactly
the same anger we will have, usually. You know, that is, you
know-if he is not upset when he should be upset, you know, that is
also violence [violation] of the precepts. When he should be angry,
he should be angry. He must be angry. That is how the difference
between Mahayana precepts and more, you know-that's a
characteristic of Mahayana way of observing precepts.

We say it is-sometime anger may be like a sunset, you know. It
is beautiful. Red. [Laughs.] It is-anyway, it-although it is
red and, you know, bright and red, but, you know, even though it
looks like anger, but it is actually a beauty. So there is, you
know, that kind of difference. But so how-you know, if-if anger
comes, you know, from purity like a lotus, it is good, I think.
From pure mind. Hai.

Student D: Roshi, I've observed that many times our
emotions seem to be independent of our minds-of our intellectual
understanding-and have a life of their own, a life outside that has
nothing to do with the life of what you know or understand or in
your mind.

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm.

Student D: What is the source of emotion in the body or
in our understanding? Where does that emotion-

Suzuki-roshi: Emotion-

Student D: -come from?

Suzuki-roshi: -you know, more-it is maybe mostly it comes
from, you know, physical, you know, source, physical part of maybe,
you know, physiological thing. And thinking is, you know, some mind
which ignore, you know, those physical things-more universal, you
know, river. We think-when we think, we think [as a] more universal
river, ignoring each conditions and conditions-various
conditions-or else we cannot think, you know. We-if we count
various condition, you know, five, ten, or twenty, or more-one
hundred conditions [laughs]-it is not possible to think.

So the characteristic of thinking mind is to ignore all the
conditions and to follow the, you know, track of the thinking mind.
So, you know, it doesn't fit. Thinking mind doesn't fit to the
each, you know, case we meet-we face. So, you know, tendency of man
is just to think and go on: Whatever it happens doesn't matter.
[Makes humorous grunting noise, laughs.] "What are you talking
about? We should do this!" you know. That is man's, you know, way.
But women stick to various conditions and carefully observe various
conditions and figure out what we should do one by one.

That is also true with our thinking mind and emotional feeling.
So how to adjust is, you know, when we p- [partial word]-our actual
practice is more physiological practice, not thinking mind. You
know, ignoring all the conditions, just to sit on black cushion
[taps cushion] is the practice.

So there is similarity, you know, in thinking mind and emotional
practice. When you practice zazen, we ignore almost all the
conditions we have. Our-when we practice zazen, our emotional
situation is-already emotionally we ignore things. Just like you
think. So in zazen practice there is-it is easier to, you know, to
practice emotional practice and thinking practice.

Student D: Roshi?

Suzuki-roshi:Hai.

Student D: What happens when the flame goes out?

Suzuki-roshi: Hmm? Flames?

Student D: Yeah. You said the heat is independent and
dependent and interdependent all at the same time. But sometimes it
goes out completely.

Suzuki-roshi: Goes-?

Student D: Turn it out-

Suzuki-roshi: Oh.

Student D: -like on that lamp. And there's no flame at
all. You know, it's none of these things, is it?

Suzuki-roshi: But, yeah. That is [taps stick], you know,
interesting questions-question-and they explain various way, you
know. Heat-it does not mean just heat, you know. It is some element
which exist in each piece of, you know, atom.

Student D: Can the flame go out in that little "each
piece?"

Suzuki-roshi: Flame nature, maybe, you may say. You know,
flame nature fall and [laughs]-some people, you know, some people
say, "In each gokumi-gokumi is last element or last
piece of the material. In last piece of the material, which is
the-which you cannot divide any more, you know, last piece. In that
last piece, four, you know, elements is in it. Last element
is-consist of four elements in same, you know, in same quantity.
And when, you know, fire element, you know, becomes strong, by some
chance, you know, it will be a fire, you know. But if fire nature
is-become weak, and water nature become strong, then it-that will
be something water[y], you know. They explain in that way. So, even
though four elements are equally, you know, exist in the last
piece, you know, according to the situation, some element will
become strong. That is one explanation.

And the other is, you know, according to the material, you know,
in last piece, some piece will have stronger, you know, or more
fire element-maybe 99 percent of fire element-then that will be
fire, you know. Some school explain how fire exist and why-how
fire, you know-why fire, you know, exist-why does it exist when we
extinguish it?

Student D: That last little piece, then, will always have
fire? It can never go away?

Suzuki-roshi: No, not that-not all-that piece is not
completely fire, but, you know, it include some other element but
not strong enough, sometime, or not much enough. They explain each
things in that way-why water is water, you know. Water does not
mean this water [taps his cup], you know. Water nature. Some
element [laughs]. Some water-like element. It is not exactly water
we see. Do you understand?

Student D: I think I do. Water has a nature to flow, so
it's more than just that [1-2 words inaudible].

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah, but what they are talking about as
water is not this water [tapping his cup of water]. Some, you know,
some nature which exist in the last piece of element of things.

Student D: You can't lose that piece of water.

Suzuki-roshi: Hmm?

Student D: You can't lose that water.

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah. [Laughs.]

Student E: Roshi?

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah. Yeah.

Student E [Bill Shurtleff?]: Could I explain a little bit
about how Western physics would say the same thing?

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm.

That as a parti- [partial word]-as you get to the smallest
particle, you can't tell when it turns into energy. There's a point
at which it's no longer a particle, but it's also no longer energy.
At the same time, you can't tell when it behaves like a wave and
when it behaves like a particle. It behaves-sometimes if you think
of it as a wave, it behaves like a wave. But if you think of it as
a particle, it behaves like a particle. And the same thing is true
with a charge-we say "an electrical charge." It has charge and yet
it doesn't have charge, like an atom has positively charged
protons, negatively charged electrons, and neutrons. But these
conditions are continually changing, mostly depending on your point
of view. That might be something like that understanding.

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hai.

Student F: Roshi, I have some difficulty in listening to
the lecture. For example, when I chant[ed] the Sandokai when
I knew nothing about what it meant, I was able to concentrate on my
breathing and my voice coming from my hara. But now I start
thinking of san meaning "many," and do meaning
something else. [Suzuki-roshi and several students are laughing.]
And I lose touch with my activity. And now I find myself thinking,
when you were holding your cup, "It has four elements."
[Laughter.]

And it creates difficulty. I know it's because I get attached to
what you say-to the words and to the ideas that they are. And the
dark, the ri side, is becoming-is, you know, the ji
side and the ri side. The ji now, when I chant the
Sandokai, the intellectual, the bright side, is strong, and
I don't enjoy chanting that sutra any more. [Laughter.]

Student G [David Chadwick]: He lost his ri.

Student F: Could you-could you maybe give me some advice
on how to avoid these kinds of difficulties?

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah, you cannot avoid it. [Laughter.]

Student F: -or else maybe enjoy them?

Suzuki-roshi: That is, you know, why I am telling you.
You know, you have to polish your, you know, understanding.

Student F: Is it understanding? You know, when we get up
in the morning-and we talked about it the other day, that we should
just-you say, "Get up! Just get up! [Suzuki-roshi laughs.] So this
morning, when I woke up, I usually just get up. But then I
heard-[loud laughter]-I started to think. I didn't get up right
away. I waited until the [wake-up] bell came back across. It came
once and then it came back, and then I started to think about what
was said in the lecture, and I just gave up.

Suzuki-roshi: That is not because of lecture,
but-[laughing]. That is not my fault.

Student F: It's-my question is-it's sort of a question
really-can we-is our practice to have subjective understanding
with-can we have subjective understanding of our practice without
having some kind of objective or right understanding, or do we have
to balance them, have both of them? Can we practice Buddha's way
without knowing Buddha's way intellectually?

Suzuki-roshi: If you can, you are very lucky [laughs].
But, unfortunately, we cannot practice without intellectual
understanding, I think. Yeah.

Student F: If we sit zazen and we have correct posture
and we follow our breathing, do we have to have these kinds of
concepts or ideas about Buddhism like the four elements and-

Suzuki-roshi: No, no. At that time we should forget.

Student F: I mean, do we have to understand the ideas of
Buddhism when we practice?

Suzuki-roshi: You have to, you know, because you tend to
think [about] things in that way. So we have to, you know, back and
forth, we should polish up our understanding so that we cannot be
intellectually mixed up. That is important, I think.

Oh! [Sees how late the time is. Laughter.] When I saw it
last time it was-I had fifteen minutes. Your question was too
good. [Laughs.]

[6] Derby, p. 4,
added these two lines. Suzuki-roshi was writing on the board, but
there did not seem enough time to write out both lines fully.

[7] Possibly
Blyth ("the four elements return to their nature") or Masunaga
("end and beginning return to the source")-Line 17.

[8] As used here,
"lines."

[9] It appears to
have been Reiho Masunaga's translation, but in this transcript the
text is presented verbatim as recited by Suzuki-roshi (i.e., often
slightly modified from the Masunaga version). From Reiho Masunaga,
The Soto Approach to Zen, Tokyo: Layman Buddhist Society
Press, 1958, pp. 185-187.

[10] Derby, p.
6. Masunaga has a semicolon after "solid earth." Suzuki-roshi
prefers a full period.