If they had a unlimited developers, they could make those changes everywhere. With all the new devs Blizzard is adding and the supposed content patch every month, maybe they will make the world more dynamic.

You then after 5.3s events decide the times come to siege Org. Thats being proactive you decide to take the fight to him.

The problem here was a: the invasion came out of the blue. The invasion plan should have been in the works since 5.0. 5.1 at the latest. Because it wasn't, Alliance players had no investment in an attack on orgrimmar, more so because their focus until then was the Horde armies elsehwere.

The horde rebellion would not have been able to topple Garry with out the alliance, we needed you more than you needed us tbh.

And Blizzard did its best to make the Alliance feel that wasn't the case.

[quote]To say its not our city and not our own "horde" we're killing thats the kind of things people say for years in conflict to demonise or justify killing the other side. "they're not us so it doesnt count".[/quopte]

Garrosh - right now - is just as much a (player) Horde Warchief as Rend Blackhand was. We've rejected him just as he rejected us.

IF the alliance cinematic is just lol hes dead lets leave the horde too it i'd be PISSED. I would rather have it with seeing garry on the floor dead and Varian + troops + racial leaders celebrating their victory or something similar with them telling the horde that they can choose their warchief and that they've earned the right to try and correct their mistakes or something.

What'll this be then? Fourth time lucky? Fifth? The Alliance doesn't need to occupy Orgrimmar, it doesn't need to destroy the Horde, it doesn't need to humiliate the Horde. But it DOES need to get somrthing truly tangible out of this.

Some thing more than the glow of moral superiority. If Blizzard can't or won't show changes in game, then a lore based change will do. And the least I can see being acceptable, the least I can see fitting in with the story as presented, is a return to the borders of WC3....with existing Horde flight points being allowed as diplomatic waystations or whatever. Possible exceptions? Horde gets Southern Alterac Valley and expands in Northrend, Alliance gets Tiragarde, Fenris Keep, Southern Barrens.

A lore based victory that essentially keeps the maps the way they are.

Now, if Blizzard can come up with some other reason, all well and good. But right now, that lore based reclamation is the least I can see as respecting both the faction and the story. There simply isn't any reason for the Alliance to give up one square foot of land. And neither Tyrande, nor Genn, nor Moira is likely to agree to it.

At least, unless it keeps the war going.

Talen it does not matter which way you cut it, the Dalaran story line was awesome from BOTH factions pov. I enjoyed it the belves got to reveal that they were considering going to the alliance

They did? First I heard about was when Varian shouted me down for wrecking his talks with them and driving them into the Horde.

You know - after the fact. During the end sequence when I should have been happy at the slaughter of men and women, killed for defending their homes.

the alliance high elves got some screen time and your king ended up being right pissed off with it all.

So how is doing something bad to the Alliance supposed to make me feel good for the Alliance? I cost them an alliance with the BElfs. I wrecked the chance they had for peace.

This was supposed to make me feel heroic?

Jaina goes bat shit crazy

No...she didn't go crazy. She snapped. She got angry.

As an alliance character it was odd having to go around murdering people just because they refused to leave.

It was supposed to feel "epic". Or so I'm told.

It had a lot more depth to it than you try and make it seem (it was more of a moral issue than lol shop keeper)

As a moral issue it worked. It presented the Alliance with a situation that needed to be handled and the way it was set up - badly, but still adequately - meant Jaina actually had little choice.

The issue is when some describe it as a "fist bump" moment. I take issue with that - as you point out, it was a moment of moral uncertainty, the player had to do some VERY questionable acts that were at odds with the spirit and beliefs of the Alliance, the outcome was grey, and on meeting the King you find out that what you did - while it did bring Dalaran into the Alliance - also cost the Alliance the possibility of peace with the Blood Elves.

The entire set up works as a moment of "moral grey" for the Alliance. But in so doing, it really cannot make nay claim to being a moment of epic triumph, that elusive "Fist bump" moment because everything about it works against what a fist bump moment actually is.

It is not a moment that the Alliance can take pride in. It is a moment of shame for the Alliance. It was just something that needed to be done. As Aethas refused the leave, the alternative was to force them out rather than imprison them.

If Blizzard wanted to make it a fist bump moment then what it should have done was have Jaina confront Aethas about the Bell, and have that event trigger an insurrection by the SUnreavers. Maybe Aethas knew, maybe he didn't but either way you end up fighting off an insurrection by Horde loyalists and perhaps an invasion force ported in once the city defences had been sabotaged. You end up with the Horde forces fleeing but still staging a jailbreak to free as many as it can. You end up with Varian congratulating you, commiserating with Jaina as both have now been shown the BElfs can't be trusted, councilling her to control and focus her anger, and Varian letting you know he's cancelled the talks with the BElfs for now, given their apprant treachery.

That result would be a hard fought battle, the Alliance blaming Aethas and the BElfs for trying to conquer Dalaran, and both Aethas and LT upset at Garrosh with LT now having no realistic option for talks. You lose the moral grey, but do you get that fist bump moment (or at least a much greater chance for it). The Horde tried to conquer a city, you got there in time and stopped them. In return, Dalaran rejoins the Alliance. The BElfs get their escape option shut down and a new reason to dislike Garrosh.

The issue is when some describe it as a "fist bump" moment. I take issue with that - as you point out, it was a moment of moral uncertainty, the player had to do some VERY questionable acts that were at odds with the spirit and beliefs of the Alliance, the outcome was grey, and on meeting the King you find out that what you did - while it did bring Dalaran into the Alliance - also cost the Alliance the possibility of peace with the Blood Elves.

If the blood elves HAD joined the Alliance, we would have gotten Dalaran anyway along with the Kirin Tor AND the Sunreavers PLUS the Blood Knights, blood elves, and Silvermoon.

So yeah, our "fist pump" is a resounding "you screwed up." Like you said, it gave us the much needed moral gray starting to show up, but to name it as our big moment of glory....not so much.

So what about the so called 'many Horde fist bump moments'?
Those werent morally grey? Cause I do o so fondly remember Alliance players clamoring that the Horde attempting to conquer new lands as a terrible/evil darkest of the dark

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

So what about the so called 'many Horde fist bump moments'?
Those werent morally grey? Cause I do o so fondly remember Alliance players clamoring that the Horde attempting to conquer new lands as a terrible/evil darkest of the dark

You judge the Alliance by Alliance standards and the Horde by Horde standards. As an aggressor, with a certain history and reputation and with those "morally grey" acts acts actually being in the spirit and character of the faction...yes, different standards apply.

You judge the Alliance by Alliance standards and the Horde by Horde standards. As an aggressor, with a certain history and reputation and with those "morally grey" acts acts actually being in the spirit and character of the faction...yes, different standards apply.

Being an aggressor is the spirit and character of the faction eh? Must be why half the faction left...

Horde:The Horde is made up of orcs, forsaken, tauren, trolls, blood elves, and most recently, goblins. Misunderstood and cast aside, these diverse and powerful races strive to overcome their differences and unite as one in order to win freedom for their people and prosper in a land that has come to hate them.

In the Horde, action and strength are valued above diplomacy, and its leaders earn respect by the blade, wasting no time with politics. The brutality of the Horde's champions is focused, giving a voice to those who fight for survival.
--Darkmoon Faire Cataclysm Promotion: Fortune card

The proud nations of the Horde are loosely joined in an alliance of convenience against a hostile world that would see them destroyed. Focused, ferocious, and sometimes monstrous, the Horde values strength and honore, but struggles to keep aggression in check. Join the horde and fight to build a world where their people can live free. For the Horde!
--Pandaren choosing screen

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

At this point, I think the damage is done. I really don't feel we can come out of Siege of Orgrimmar without the Alliance looking somewhat foolish and since we've been told phasing areas to show Horde defeat is out of the question, I simply don't think we can salvage MoP to give a sense of Alliance victory so much as Horde victory supported by Alliance forces.

If player feedback had been considered before and changes could be made to the build up of Siege of Orgrimmar, however....here's what I would have changed to alter the entire tone of the Alliance storyline without impacting the Horde story at all.

Purge of Dalaran
I would COMPLETELY drop the idea that Varian was working to bring the blood elves into the Alliance. That information by itself makes Dalaran a complete SNAFU, a total failure, and a LOSS for the Alliance, not a victory. The way Blizzard put it in game, the Alliance's "big victory" is to gain a city they would have already had, lost the Sunreavers as an Alliance faction, and lost Silvermoon itself as an Alliance city (lore wise). The blood elves are never going to flip sides from gameplay perspective, so why bring it up for the story as it only serves to undercut the victory of Dalaran being an Alliance city.

Without the purge, Dalaran AND Silvermoon would have likely been Alliance cities, so Dalaran is really a loss for the Alliance in that respect.

I would have had active Horde agents in Dalaran, having just infiltrated the city intent on taking it for the Horde by killing off the Kirin Tor. The Alliance player would fight them off and kill them, then deal with the Sunreavers and imprisoning them for questioning until everything is sorted out. This could still establish Lor'themar's fury for Garrosh and still see Jaina as overreacting by blaming the Sunreavers for the infiltration and attack. The Horde would still keep their jail break scenario in its entirety but there would be more clear reason for the purge and the Horde would actually fail in an attack and be defeated for a change and have no indication of the blood elves in negotiations with Varian.

Trials of the Supreme Allied Commander
I'm going to only use the scenarios in game here.

For A Little Patience, I would have reversed the roles. I would have had Varian hesitant because Anduin has informed him the temple is a sacred place, but seeing little option but to press their advantage. Make him the one about to make the mistake, though not happy about the situation. Tyrande would then be the one to offer an alternative and lay the traps for the orcs. Her dialogue could still be very aggressive, venomous towards the orcs and clearly eager to kill every last one of them, but making it a point that "they will die how we choose." Concluding the scenario, Varian would comment on how he better understands Tyrande and her people's methods and tactics. Throwing in his experience in Ashenvale gave him great understanding of the worgens' strengths but he wasn't as close to the night elves' tactics. Knowing both will be greatly valuable in the future and Tyrande could reply to the effect that it is good to see he is able to observe and learn from his allies.

Blood in the Snow I would have kept mainly as it is but this time have Varian offering his assistance to deal with trolls in the dwarves' land and I would have had the dwarves come to an arrangement ahead of time. Varian would be under Moira, or the Council's command in the scenario and join the battle alongside the dwarves at the end. Moira would come out showing full support from the Dark Irons and the Bronzebeards would note that Varian is not too proud to be commanded, showing some humility from the king. The Wildhammers, with no interest in owning Ironforge, would be the clan to stay behind while Bronzebeards and Dark Irons marched with Varian.

Preferably, we would have had a scenario with the draenei and something with the gnomes as well. At the end of these scenarios, the Alliance Leaders would gather for a council (like in Cataclysm) and they would name Varian Supreme Allied Commander. Varian would again show his humility in being given the title, and make a small speech of how Anduin Lothar was like a second father, and the man he looks up to more than anyone. To be given the title Lothar once held, and Turalyon after him, would be a great honor, he'd do his best to lead them in the coming battles against Garrosh, and that he's learned much from each of them and he believes he can utilize their strengths to work cohesively for a Siege on Orgrimmar.

Preparing for the Siege
For the Durotar quests, I would have established a small camp at the border of Durotar and Barrens with Shandris Feathermoon, night elves, Draenei, and Sully & Amber. Rather than a cat, you'd go with a night elf priestess of the moon & Sully to stealth around Orgrimmar's area. You'd still obtain the pieces of information and free the troll, but you'd mark some named orcs for sniping by Amber similar to the quest with Gizmo & Socks.

Upon returning to camp, the troll you rescued would approach and be brought to Shandris. She'd deliver a request for a meeting between Shandris and Vol'jin, but Shandris would send the player as her representative. I think this would be crucial in shifting the tone of the Alliance players' views because Vol'jin would be reaching out to ask for help (hell, he asked for Alliance help in Cataclysm!) as Baine advised him to. This would also show the Horde that Vol'jin listens to his friends' advice and be a little bit of a mirror of Thrall not listening to Cairne while Vol'jin does listen to Baine.

Essentially the same quest, but a little more aggression with the assassinations and you'd have a military leader making the decision to parlay with Vol'jin rather than a field agent. You'd also give the Alliance the appearance of preparing to invade and lay siege rather than just 2 agents in the entire area.

I agree with many of your points, but I did kinda like the fact Varia was in talks with bringing the Belfs to the Alliance. Sure it wouldn't have happened, and you ask what the point, so to me the point is to show the conflict between Varian's approach and Jaina's approach. Jaina is now the super aggressive leader willing to take action where Varian is now a more controlled leader. They said the ending of SoO is a big Jaina vs. Varian moment, and it can be done in a cool way, IF Blizzard took the time to actually make a nice Alliance cinematic.

Being an aggressor is the spirit and character of the faction eh? Must be why half the faction left...

The Horde had no problem with Garrosh's aggression in Cataclysm. None whatsoever. It wasn't until Garrosh turned against his own people that they had a major problem. There are inklings of it here and there, such as Vol'jin in the Troll starting zone, but that isn't visited again until WAY later (An expansion later) in 5.1.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by khalltusk

Past two expansions I presume you mean mop and Cata which we can mainly agree the hordes lore seems to be praised a lot more. Wrath the alliance had a HUGE amount of lore into it and rightly so.

Woo this unique argument again. Wrath wasn't an Alliance expansion, sorry. At the very most, people could argue it was slightly tilted Alliance. But even then I don't buy that.

The Horde had no problem with Garrosh's aggression in Cataclysm. None whatsoever. It wasn't until Garrosh turned against his own people that they had a major problem. There are inklings of it here and there, such as Vol'jin in the Troll starting zone, but that isn't visited again until WAY later (An expansion later) in 5.1.

Must be why Cairne died, Baine expelled those who wanted to retaliate against the Alliance for Taurajo, Vol'jin moved the trolls out of Orgrimmar, Sylvanas whined about counterattack, and Baine warned Jaina about Theramore.

Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-29 at 07:18 AM.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

The Horde had no problem with Garrosh's aggression in Cataclysm. None whatsoever. It wasn't until Garrosh turned against his own people that they had a major problem. There are inklings of it here and there, such as Vol'jin in the Troll starting zone, but that isn't visited again until WAY later (An expansion later) in 5.1.

- - - Updated - - -

Woo this unique argument again. Wrath wasn't an Alliance expansion, sorry. At the very most, people could argue it was slightly tilted Alliance. But even then I don't buy that.

What argument I was asking a question. Did I say it was an alliance expansion? Nope read carefully I said it hage a huge amount of lore into it. Which it did, you had all the wc3 tie ins with Arthas and Muradin. The dwarves and humans and gnomes had origin stories tied into it about their ancestors (mecha gnomes iron earthen and vykrul) we had varian making his appearance (he was Garrosh in human form tbh) Tirion coming into the story Morgrains story as well. It was a great expansion lore wise as there was so much. The horde had a lot of good stories as well but lets not forget it was tilted to the alliance somewhat but it had to be. This was about the former prince of who had fallen to darkness.

If you think it was a horde centric expansion then I don't think we can discuss anything further as you'd be far too biased.

On the issue of Garrosh aggression Monkey got it bang on, not everyone was happy with Garrys actions.

Must be why Cairne died, Sylvanas whined about retaliation, Baine warned Jaina about the attack, and Vol'jin moved the trolls out of Orgrimmar.

Cairne's death was ultimately his own fault. I have no sympathy for Garrosh but he let his own prejudices lead him to think it must have been him. Upon Baine's succession, the Horde completely drop this storyline of being upset with Garrosh until MoP. Vol'jin's "exodus" sure didn't really do anything in Cataclysm, since Darkspear Trolls are throughout that entire expansion left and right.

The rest of those happened in Tides of War, which, you know, was after Cataclysm.

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Originally Posted by khalltusk

If you think it was a horde centric expansion then I don't think we can discuss anything further as you'd be far too biased.

Where did I say it was?

And no, sorry. Arthas being the former Prince of Lordaeron does not make Wrath an Alliance expansion. It wasn't Alliance lore that were going to kill Arthas. In fact, the majority of Wrath's story was "Go kill Lich King." The parts about Arthas were portrayed by Jaina and Sylvanas in 3.3 equally.

Cairne's death was ultimately his own fault. I have no sympathy for Garrosh but he let his own prejudices lead him to think it must have been him. Upon Baine's succession, the Horde completely drop this storyline of being upset with Garrosh until MoP.

The rest of those happen in Tides of War or later. Which, you know, is after Cataclysm. Tides of War is the crossed line. It was packaged as such. From both sides.

Where did I say it was?

And no, sorry. Arthas being the former Prince of Lordaeron does not make Wrath an Alliance expansion.

Not all of it after Cata. In Cata questlines where Sylvanas states about alliance retaliation if she goes for Gilneas is one example. Voljin and his trolls reclaimed their island and moved there prior to Cata or at least in the pre cata event. I think baine had a story where he fixed the water issues and the quill boar attacks while Garry made a right tool of him self. It explains that Baine puts aside his anger of his fathers death to try and keep the horde together and do whats best for his people.

As for that I didnt say it was an alliance expansion it was tilted to them which you agree to. All of it tied to WC3 and because of that there was as big lean to the alliance as there were more characters tied to Arthas on alliance than horde.

Cairne's death was ultimately his own fault. I have no sympathy for Garrosh but he let his own prejudices lead him to think it must have been him. Upon Baine's succession, the Horde completely drop this storyline of being upset with Garrosh until MoP.

The rest of those happen in Tides of War or later. Which, you know, is after Cataclysm. Tides of War is the crossed line. It was packaged as such. From both sides.

Technically it still happened in Cata, but if you want to talk about earlier stuff:
-Vol'jin moved the trolls out of Orgrimmar in protest.
-Baine expelled those who wanted to attack the Alliance in retaliation for Camp Taurajo.
-Sylvanas only went along with the conquest because Garrosh didn't leave her much choice and she was "in the dog house."

-Gallywix was happy for the profits the war would bring.
-Lor'themar was mostly absent (probably rebuilding Quel'Thalas) or dealing with the Troll uprising.

Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-29 at 07:41 AM.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)