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I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...

I bet it'll still be less than an N3 just for competition's sake. Especially since the original V-Piano was probably a bigger deal for Roland in terms of some novel technology offering and therefore pricing.

I never thought Roland would put themselves out to challenge Yamaha like that. Funny, I was reading a review in a professional music journal recently that suggested that singer-pianists like Elton John might seriously consider putting the V-Piano into a Yamaha grand cabinet for their pop gigs, and noone need ever know they're not actually playing a real grand piano....

But what sector of the pianist market would Roland be targetting with this design? Many classical pianists would still need a LOT of convincing to even try out something with a Roland name on it - not to mention a DP of any sort (just read the posts in the Piano or Pianist forum): most already have ingrained prejudices which will be difficult to shift.

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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

But what sector of the pianist market would Roland be targetting with this design? Many classical pianists would still need a LOT of convincing to even try out something with a Roland name on it - not to mention a DP of any sort (just read the posts in the Piano or Pianist forum): most already have ingrained prejudices which will be difficult to shift.

You may be right, but it's still pretty ridiculous. I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits. I honestly don't think anybody would care if Elton John or Billy Joel turned up on stage with a Roland grand. It's the modern world. If Krystian Zimerman appeared with a Roland grand that might raise a few eyebrows though.

I think you are underestimating the potential ridiculousness of people. Roland has been making digital grands for a while now. The question will most likely be whether or not the new V-Piano technology will be compelling enough for people to start buying them.

If Krystian Zimerman appeared with a Roland grand that might raise a few eyebrows though.

Er...yes, quite, especially if he turns up with his own tuning equipment (apparently he maintains and tunes his own pianos) ..It's all a matter of perception. There's a reason why concert grands have their names in big gold letters on the sides facing the audience ('heck, if that guy can make such a nice sound on that brand of piano, I'll have the same'). Roland, unlike Yamaha or Kawai, has no clout amoung classical pianists brought up on acoustics. And I can vouch for that myself, as I'd never heard of Roland till early last year when I was looking at purchasing a DP, when I then discovered that Roland is up there with Yamaha as the big names in DPs. (I've never attended a pop/rock gig in my life).

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

This picture is not mine but belongs to someone on here that we know (well at least on the piano side anyway). He took this whilst he visited Roland HQ in Asia during 2010. It is not a fake and I'm guessing we'll hear more about it during this year - Steve

I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits.

While I agree that they should both be assessed on their merits, I think you're off-base on the pedigree issue.

The Yamaha company is first, and foremost, a traditional musical instrument company - founded in 1887 by Torakusu Yamaha to make pianos and organs. That's a very specific pedigree. Their logo is still three tuning forks - an analog sound source for tuning acoustic instruments. And to assume the piano techs at Yamaha were not involved with the AvantGrand, which has their actual grand piano action, is an illogical assumption. Lastly, the vast majority of the physical parts in the AvantGrand are the pieces of the action, which seem to be identical to those used in the C3 - to assume these fine wooden parts are made anywhere other than in the acoustic piano factories makes no manufacturing sense.

Roland was not founded until well into the era of electronic instruments, and is an electronic instrument company. This says nothing about their quality, but it's clear why many people would see that pedigree as NOT appealing to someone with a love of acoustic instruments.

I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits.

While I agree that they should both be assessed on their merits, I think you're off-base on the pedigree issue.

The Yamaha company is first, and foremost, a traditional musical instrument company - founded in 1887 by Torakusu Yamaha to make pianos and organs. That's a very specific pedigree. Their logo is still three tuning forks - an analog sound source for tuning acoustic instruments. And to assume the piano techs at Yamaha were not involved with the AvantGrand, which has their actual grand piano action, is an illogical assumption. Lastly, the vast majority of the physical parts in the AvantGrand are the pieces of the action, which seem to be identical to those used in the C3 - to assume these fine wooden parts are made anywhere other than in the acoustic piano factories makes no manufacturing sense.

Roland was not founded until well into the era of electronic instruments, and is an electronic instrument company. This says nothing about their quality, but it's clear why many people would see that pedigree as NOT appealing to someone with a love of acoustic instruments.

Action, yes, sound - not really. Both companies have a different approach to digital piano sound - neither of which are especially dependent on their pedigree as instrument makers. It's all good and well to make a DP with action parts from an acoustic, but unless the sound technology it's mated to is top notch, it's neither here nor there. Yamaha has a great action, but they need to work harder on their sampling/modelling/resonance technology. Where is their pedigree helping there? It isn't at present. And it's not that I'm anti-Yamaha - I do own a Yamaha acoustic. In the end, we should be just as demanding about the sound of the Yamaha as the action. For some reason, the AG gets cut some serious slack because of its action. Furthermore, pedigree is really an illusion: all that counts is the nature of the instrument being assessed. I could care less about what came before it because I'm not playing what came before it. I assess an instrument based on what is does now.

I was brought up on Yamaha acoustics - a little console-sized vertical in my childhood, then bigger uprights in school and then university. That didn't cloud my judgement when I decided to buy a DP, though most of the DPs I tried were actually Yamaha. IMO, Yamaha DPs are different beasts to their acoustics (apart from the fact that their sounds are sampled from Yamaha acoustics), as different as Yamaha motorbikes to Yamaha DPs .

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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I think that we should compare the V-Piano to the Yamaha Avantgrand N2. Indeed, in fact the N2 does not cost much more than a V-Piano PLUS 4 amplified speakers PLUS the stand ... and it has a real AC Grand piano action keyboard.

And...The new YAmaha Avantgrand N1, to be anounced a NAMM, may give V-Piano some very tough competition. it is supposed to be priced like the V-Piano, but (1) with a real AC action, and (2) with built-in speakers, so in fact way cheaper than a V-Pianio since no need for extra costs on speakers and stand.

What do you think ? Which one do you prefer ?

The V-piano I purchased came with a stand included? I have listened to both and with a good pair of headphones, the V-Piano sounds more realistic. However listening through the Avantgrand's speakers sound great. I do feel the V-piano has a lot more potential, especially with the 100 user slots for creating your own sounds. I am already doing that using Bennevis's thread with his custom sounds. We need more people buying the V-piano so they can join us in that thread. I know I am biased now that I have made my decision, however I recommend going and listening for yourself.

I don't want to throw a spanner into the works , but I fancy that the AvantGrands may be replaced in the not-too-distant-future by updated versions, sampled from the new(ish) Yamaha CFX concert grand, which will replace the CF-IIIS in concert halls as their new flagship model.

For those not in the know, the CFX was unveiled to the world at large (rather successfully) in last year's Chopin Competition in Warsaw (www.konkurs.chopin.pl), where the competitors were given a choice of Steinway, Fazioli, Kawai and the Yamaha CFX. As it happened, the winner, Yulianna Avdeeva, won the finals playing on the CFX, and with the event being streamed worldwide on the internet, Yamaha got a big publicity boost.The CFX seems to mark a new departure for Yamaha, having a more 'European sound', less bright and strident than its predecessor and therefore more suitable for classical pianists (as opposed to jazz and pop), as I discovered when I heard it recently.

It seems only a matter of time before all existing AvantGrands (and all Yamaha DPs) are replaced - unless there's a way to upgrade their sounds without buying new instruments.

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

The brand new CLP 400 series makes no mention of the using the CFX as a source and the CFX has been around a good while longer than the CLP 400s. All digital instruments (not just Yamahas) are replaced by new models at some point but there is no basis for thinking the current AGs will not have a relatively long life; its predecessor the GranTouch was in the Yamaha catalogue unchanged for over ten years.

And who knows, perhaps Roland will soon replace the V-Piano - with something that actually sounds like a piano. What a wonderful thing that would be!

You don't think Yamaha will let on if they're currently setting up a CFX ready to be sampled, do you? When was the last time that any DP manufacturer told their customers in advance that all their DPs are going to be superseded/obsolete?

It may not be till next year - or even this Christmas, but it will happen, when the first Yamaha DP to be sampled from their CFX comes out. (And Yamaha will no doubt make a big song and dance about it then). After all, the CF-IIIS will soon be superseded/obsolete. Who wants to buy a DP sampled from an obsolete acoustic?

Even when Roland only brought out one upgrade last year for its V-Piano, you're already getting grumbles from several people.....

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

BTW, I see you're putting yourself up for another bout of knockabout fun & games, sniping at the V-Piano again.....

Don't worry, Roland's V-P sound will never be obsolete, because you can customize any acoustic piano sound on it you like - see my other post for reference . And they sound like real pianos - you just need to have proper speakers or headphones to listen. And they don't all sound like Yamaha, believe it or not, unlike, er, Yamaha DPs. And Roland doesn't sample from a soon-to-be-obsolete instrument for its DPs.....

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I should add that I haven't yet played the CFX myself, only heard it played in concert, but it did sound warmer, with a wider range of tonal nuances than the CF-IIIS. In fact, if I'd heard it 'blind', I probably wouldn't have guessed it was a Yamaha - maybe a very well-prepped Shigeru Kawai. Hopefully, I'll get to play it in the near future.

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

BTW, I see you're putting yourself up for another bout of knockabout fun & games, sniping at the V-Piano again.....

Don't worry, Roland's V-P sound will never be obsolete, because you can customize any acoustic piano sound on it you like - see my other post for reference . And they sound like real pianos - you just need to have proper speakers or headphones to listen. And they don't all sound like Yamaha, believe it or not, unlike, er, Yamaha DPs. And Roland doesn't sample from a soon-to-be-obsolete instrument for its DPs.....

HAHA.. I have to get on the bennevis corner over here. Boxing gloves on in defense of the V-piano..lol..

As for Yamaha, they have to move on and come out with and market a new version of the AvantGrand at some point with their newest flagship grand. It is inevitable. It would be great if there was some kind of upgrade that could be done to current owners however that is highly, very highly unlikely looking at how Yamaha handles these things in the past.

As for the V-Piano, Roland needs to get in gear and continue to support it with upgrades and or patches. Roland can even charge some money for an upgrade patch if it is truly a new modeled piano sound beyond the two we already get.

One thing is for certain, if you have to get on the corner of upgradeablitity, no hardware digital can compare to the V-piano's potential. I just hope they continue to support it at least for another couple years before upgrading the model entirely. I certainly plan to use the V-piano for a long time and would welcome any new modeled piano that can be added.