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What is displayed in these vids is most definitely not the way I practise, nor my teacher's.

I. simply. do. not. get. it. at. all.

When Graham says this is not teaching, just for fun, I am lost too. Where is the consistency in that?

Looks like you've all been having fun. That's good. I suppose if you all did get it, did understand, I would be confused so I'm glad you don't.

Tim, I didn't say this is not teaching it's just for fun. You're getting as bad as some others. Ha,ha.

The 'expert' opinions given as to effectiveness shows me those who do so obviously don't understand. Why they are upset by me saying this I don't know as it's self evident. They understand what they do but not what I do. Very simple.

Looks like you've all been having fun. That's good. I suppose if you all did get it, did understand, I would be confused so I'm glad you don't.

Tim, I didn't say this is not teaching it's just for fun. You're getting as bad as some others. Ha,ha.

The 'expert' opinions given as to effectiveness shows me those who do so obviously don't understand. Why they are upset by me saying this I don't know as it's self evident. They understand what they do but not what I do. Very simple.

Harmless, ultra effective. An unusual combination.

Have fun.G.

I guess the point is, when is Aikido ever done for fun? Just do us a favor and post a actual "not for fun" Aikido class you conduct or participate in. I'm sure if we saw this, then maybe we could understand. You started practicing Aikido since 1981. How old were you when you started then? Thanks Graham and may God bless!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me

I guess the point is, when is Aikido ever done for fun? Just do us a favor and post a actual "not for fun" Aikido class you conduct or participate in. I'm sure if we saw this, then maybe we could understand. You started practicing Aikido since 1981. How old were you when you started then? Thanks Graham and may God bless!

Ed

Ed.
On coming to Aikiweb I thus discovered people were used to and wanted to see on screen ukes flying through the air, dynamic powerful looking demos, or instructional videos. Seems they can't look beyond that.
Therefore I said at the time that if I make some I shall post them.

However I act from purpose. My purpose is to show harmony not domination. In the past I used to not only tell people but show them and let them experience and thus give them choice. I would say this is 'whatever technique' samurai wise. This is the same technique buddhist wise. (my choice of terms)

Then I would ask which one they prefer, not only to have done on them but also to learn to do. The 'buddhist' way is what most chose for it is the one that blows their mind and speaks a thousand words. So why should I post videos that promote fighting or domination? There's plenty of them already and plenty, in fact the majority of dojos for them to go to. No shortage there.

Those who see something in my way, in what I show, learn and use it in life, in all manner of situations with great success. So why should I want those who see nothing in it? Obviously it's not what they are looking for.

Ed.
On coming to Aikiweb I thus discovered people were used to and wanted to see on screen ukes flying through the air, dynamic powerful looking demos, or instructional videos. Seems they can't look beyond that.
Therefore I said at the time that if I make some I shall post them.

However I act from purpose. My purpose is to show harmony not domination. In the past I used to not only tell people but show them and let them experience and thus give them choice. I would say this is 'whatever technique' samurai wise. This is the same technique buddhist wise. (my choice of terms)

Then I would ask which one they prefer, not only to have done on them but also to learn to do. The 'buddhist' way is what most chose for it is the one that blows their mind and speaks a thousand words. So why should I post videos that promote fighting or domination? There's plenty of them already and plenty, in fact the majority of dojos for them to go to. No shortage there.

Those who see something in my way, in what I show, learn and use it in life, in all manner of situations with great success. So why should I want those who see nothing in it? Obviously it's not what they are looking for.

There's nothing to prove.

Regards.G.

I guess you have to internalize however you can do it. Samurai wise and buddhist wise may be the same thing depending on what time in Japanese history you are talking about. Buddhism has had it share of violent moments and still today in certain parts of Asia, some Buddhist sects are violent and even kill Christian missionaries. So be careful how you categorize. Can you send me a homepage of the Aikido dojo you practice KI at? Also what dan are you and in what specific style (because it is not pure KI Aikido)? I understand where you are coming from as far as harmony. However, in every Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido dojo I practiced in, this was the ultimate goal, however the end result of KI causing pain in the waza still existed (and will always). You can only transcend peace and harmony so far without the deeper understanding of KI breathing (misogi). How often do you do KI breathing exercises as prescribed by Tohei Sensei?

May God bless!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me

My comment was not intended to be judgemental. Sorry if it came across like that. Everyone is entitled to their own practise. You made no statement whatsever whether the vids show techniques that are effective, or whatsoever. That is however how my eyes look at Aikido, because that has my interest (there is some material of my teacher Alain Peyrache, should it interest you, perhaps you would like to take a look at it).

I responded to the fact that you yourself said what is shown on the vids is not actual practise. To me that is not consistent: you do Aikido always in the same sense/intention. There is no morning Aikido, evening Aikido, wednesday Aikido, or Aikido just for fun.

BTW I have always wanted to be a bad ass...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

It is possible to tell by video if someone has " The Goods " or not. There are certain quality's good budoka have and if you know what to look for you can easily tell. Good bodoka maybe soft but never floppy and they have a connection to the ground that is very obvious to see. You can also tell by how their waza effects the uke.

I do not agree with most of what Tony Wagstaff and Graham Christian say but at least they had the balls to put video's up of themselves. There are a lot of people on aikiweb that ask for video of others but have never put their own up for everybody else to see and critique. If one is not willing to put up a video of themselves, then you should not ask it of others.

My comment was not intended to be judgemental. Sorry if it came across like that. Everyone is entitled to their own practise. You made no statement whatsever whether the vids show techniques that are effective, or whatsoever. That is however how my eyes look at Aikido, because that has my interest (there is some material of my teacher Alain Peyrache, should it interest you, perhaps you would like to take a look at it).

I responded to the fact that you yourself said what is shown on the vids is not actual practise. To me that is not consistent: you do Aikido always in the same sense/intention. There is no morning Aikido, evening Aikido, wednesday Aikido, or Aikido just for fun.

BTW I have always wanted to be a bad ass...

Hi Tim.
It's that word 'practice.' A few clips put together for fiends which also add up to about five minutes doesn't give much of a view of overall practice.

Then there's the factor of who the ukemi is which would make for a different image. By the way, my classes usually last abt. 3 hours. You can't really equate me with any standard style for I am independent. I have made statements that the techniques are effective and it is precisely that point that many 'disagree' with.

I will look up some of the vids of the person you mention and if you like even give my opinion.

What do you mean? No little video can. Now a video can be made for a specific purpose, let's say teaching. So none of them were made for that, that would be a totally differently presented video would it not?

Could be done to promote an organization or club etc. So once again no, none of them.

Could be done for fun. Yep, closer. Could be done also to see if people say ' That looks different, how do you do that?' Well, that's one thing I found don't happen. Ha, ha.

Then to discover what people think they are seeing. That's what perks my interest.

I guess you have to internalize however you can do it. Samurai wise and buddhist wise may be the same thing depending on what time in Japanese history you are talking about. Buddhism has had it share of violent moments and still today in certain parts of Asia, some Buddhist sects are violent and even kill Christian missionaries. So be careful how you categorize. Can you send me a homepage of the Aikido dojo you practice KI at? Also what dan are you and in what specific style (because it is not pure KI Aikido)? I understand where you are coming from as far as harmony. However, in every Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido dojo I practiced in, this was the ultimate goal, however the end result of KI causing pain in the waza still existed (and will always). You can only transcend peace and harmony so far without the deeper understanding of KI breathing (misogi). How often do you do KI breathing exercises as prescribed by Tohei Sensei?

May God bless!

Ed

Thanks for your opinion Ed.

When I categorize in person the person has no doubt of the difference so no need to be careful how I categorize.

You tell me you can only transcend with the deeper understanding of misogi breathing. That's not the only way, it's a way. I would have to look up Toheis methods to answer you for all I know is what I do. How often? All the time I breathe from centre.

I do have a question for you though. What do you think my view of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is? You seem to be defending it.

When I categorize in person the person has no doubt of the difference so no need to be careful how I categorize.

You tell me you can only transcend with the deeper understanding of misogi breathing. That's not the only way, it's a way. I would have to look up Toheis methods to answer you for all I know is what I do. How often? All the time I breathe from centre.

I do have a question for you though. What do you think my view of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is? You seem to be defending it.

Regards.G.

I would say your opinion on breathing from the one point/focusing on the point is very correct. I would say you understand, however the practice method (as outlined in the video/having fun after practice or not formalized practice), just didn't seem correct. I have had many informal instructions after class by my instructor at the time (Tabata Sensei/Honolulu KI Society), but if he applied a technique, we still had to fall the way we normally would during class. If we didn't, we would get a ear full or a smack on the head to wake up and perform the fall correctly. He was very old fashion in his teaching methods (older style Japanese sensei). We knew this and accepted his method of Teaching KI Aikido. At the time he was 73. He insured the waza was effective, if it wasn't and you were just going with it, he could tell your mind and body wasn't coordinated and he would then show the technique to you and your partner (to a painful end result). So when I hear others dismiss KI Aikido as ineffective, I ask myself "Where did these people learn"? It definitely wasn't from my sensei. Everyday before practice he made it a point to ask all the students how much KI breathing they did thru the week. If you were told him none, it would suck to be you that practice session. He knew the great benefit from KI breathing (misogi). The more you did it, the more aware you were of your one point.

I guess looking back now, I never realized how good a sensei he was. He was the hardest sensei I ever learned from, but he made sure you understood KI and what effective waza was. He was one of the first U.S., students of Tohei sensei both when he was still with the Aikikai and when Tohei Sensei split from the Aikikai and formed Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. In many instructor classes he would show the changed techniques from when he first learned under Tohei sensei (Aikikai) and how Tohei Sensei changed the technique with KI Aikido. Both techniques were effective, but with the KI method more flowing and relaxed with the same painful result (no invisible touch crap, I still haven't seen how that works or why that is even taught by some who profess to follow KI Aikido). The one waza where I only saw this no touch technique was the hand extended thru the forehead of the akemi. The reason for this is because if you don't fall, you get the intent of the technique for the person who attacks you on the street (finger/hand projected thru the eye socket).

One big point my sensei stressed, that many from under the Aikikai umbrella disagree with (although I have meet a few who do agree and practice misogi/KI breathing), is that you can only progress so far in learning KI extension by waza alone.

So in closing I would say, if you throw the words KI Aikido around, it has to be with effective waza also. There is nothing magic about KI, without effective waza to show how KI really works when it flows. But from my experience, to truly enhance KI extension/relaxation the KI breathing has to be part of the regiment to increase relaxation and the extension of KI to its fullest. This equals more effective waza. Funny how that works. The more KI breathing, the more smooth and effective your waza is. The more waza effectiveness, the more proper extension of KI. So the emphasis of the training on both is essential (from my experience with Aikido). Not just the waza.

May God bless you Graham.

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me

What do you mean? No little video can. Now a video can be made for a specific purpose, let's say teaching. So none of them were made for that, that would be a totally differently presented video would it not?

Could be done to promote an organization or club etc. So once again no, none of them.

Could be done for fun. Yep, closer. Could be done also to see if people say ' That looks different, how do you do that?' Well, that's one thing I found don't happen. Ha, ha.

Then to discover what people think they are seeing. That's what perks my interest.

Regards.G.

You have there ( http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u ) about five hours worth of videos, not a "little video" territory anymore. The videos themselves seem to capture fragments of your normal classes and this is how they are perceived by me (and perhaps others).

I stand corrected when you say to have made statements about effectiveness. I have just become just as bad as the others I am afraid.

Practise or not, like I said earlier: there is no morning Aikido, no evening Aikido, no wednesday night Aikido, just Aikido always. When you allow yourself to slack for whatever reason you are off the Path. That is why I said it is not consistent.

I would be interested to know what you think of Alain Peyrache (or Tamura Sensei for that matter). Alain has some promotional vids (stills and very short movies) but at least give an impression. Tamura Sensei has much more material available.
Now I am not telling you this to convince you, merely to show perhaps a quite different approach. I am sure others may provide teachers of similar quality.

Lastly, like Henry said respect your audience. Also the ones that do not respond...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

I watched one of your videos and although I thought you were a bit stiff...I explored the technique in my last few classes. I find it very effective. It allows for realistic technique and for practice of ki extension.
Thank you for putting the video up.
Best,
Mary

I watched one of your videos and although I thought you were a bit stiff...I explored the technique in my last few classes. I find it very effective. It allows for realistic technique and for practice of ki extension.
Thank you for putting the video up.
Best,
Mary

Dear Mary,
I guess when anyone over seventy is still training the person in question might well lack some synovial fluid in their joints.Knowing Mr Ellis well, I can attest to his longevity in Aikido.He is a fine example of a man who tries to protect the heritage of the art.He does not suffer fools gladly and calls it as he sees it. This is sometimes misconstrued by some.I find Mr Ellis quite refreshing and always
enjoy his contributions to the Forum.
Cheers, Joe.

It is possible to tell by video if someone has " The Goods " or not. There are certain quality's good budoka have and if you know what to look for you can easily tell. Good bodoka maybe soft but never floppy and they have a connection to the ground that is very obvious to see. You can also tell by how their waza effects the uke.

I would say your opinion on breathing from the one point/focusing on the point is very correct. I would say you understand, however the practice method (as outlined in the video/having fun after practice or not formalized practice), just didn't seem correct. I have had many informal instructions after class by my instructor at the time (Tabata Sensei/Honolulu KI Society), but if he applied a technique, we still had to fall the way we normally would during class. If we didn't, we would get a ear full or a smack on the head to wake up and perform the fall correctly. He was very old fashion in his teaching methods (older style Japanese sensei). We knew this and accepted his method of Teaching KI Aikido. At the time he was 73. He insured the waza was effective, if it wasn't and you were just going with it, he could tell your mind and body wasn't coordinated and he would then show the technique to you and your partner (to a painful end result). So when I hear others dismiss KI Aikido as ineffective, I ask myself "Where did these people learn"? It definitely wasn't from my sensei. Everyday before practice he made it a point to ask all the students how much KI breathing they did thru the week. If you were told him none, it would suck to be you that practice session. He knew the great benefit from KI breathing (misogi). The more you did it, the more aware you were of your one point.

I guess looking back now, I never realized how good a sensei he was. He was the hardest sensei I ever learned from, but he made sure you understood KI and what effective waza was. He was one of the first U.S., students of Tohei sensei both when he was still with the Aikikai and when Tohei Sensei split from the Aikikai and formed Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. In many instructor classes he would show the changed techniques from when he first learned under Tohei sensei (Aikikai) and how Tohei Sensei changed the technique with KI Aikido. Both techniques were effective, but with the KI method more flowing and relaxed with the same painful result (no invisible touch crap, I still haven't seen how that works or why that is even taught by some who profess to follow KI Aikido). The one waza where I only saw this no touch technique was the hand extended thru the forehead of the akemi. The reason for this is because if you don't fall, you get the intent of the technique for the person who attacks you on the street (finger/hand projected thru the eye socket).

One big point my sensei stressed, that many from under the Aikikai umbrella disagree with (although I have meet a few who do agree and practice misogi/KI breathing), is that you can only progress so far in learning KI extension by waza alone.

So in closing I would say, if you throw the words KI Aikido around, it has to be with effective waza also. There is nothing magic about KI, without effective waza to show how KI really works when it flows. But from my experience, to truly enhance KI extension/relaxation the KI breathing has to be part of the regiment to increase relaxation and the extension of KI to its fullest. This equals more effective waza. Funny how that works. The more KI breathing, the more smooth and effective your waza is. The more waza effectiveness, the more proper extension of KI. So the emphasis of the training on both is essential (from my experience with Aikido). Not just the waza.

May God bless you Graham.

Ed

Hi Ed. I like the clear writing. I also like the picture of your old sensei. A bit like mine.

I understand what you expect to see in videos and if I had posted some ten years ago they probably would have been similar to how you describe.

Throwing the words Ki Aikido around? I think you may have assumed something there. Look up the thread of mine called strength verse Ki. I think you might like it.

I do like what you say in the last paragraph and cannot disagree that they all go together. Well put.

You have there ( http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u ) about five hours worth of videos, not a "little video" territory anymore. The videos themselves seem to capture fragments of your normal classes and this is how they are perceived by me (and perhaps others).

Hi David.
Well let's do the maths first then shall we? Five hours, each one being aprrox. one thirtsixth of the total hours done. Mmmmm. So that is five hours taken from one hundred and eighty hours.

O.K. That's for perspective.

Granted, they capture fragments and indeed more, even the gist of my classes. They capture it only if you know what you are seeing of course.

I stand corrected when you say to have made statements about effectiveness. I have just become just as bad as the others I am afraid.

Practise or not, like I said earlier: there is no morning Aikido, no evening Aikido, no wednesday night Aikido, just Aikido always. When you allow yourself to slack for whatever reason you are off the Path. That is why I said it is not consistent.

I would be interested to know what you think of Alain Peyrache (or Tamura Sensei for that matter). Alain has some promotional vids (stills and very short movies) but at least give an impression. Tamura Sensei has much more material available.
Now I am not telling you this to convince you, merely to show perhaps a quite different approach. I am sure others may provide teachers of similar quality.

Lastly, like Henry said respect your audience. Also the ones that do not respond...

Hi Tim.
I did look up Alain Peyrache Sensei. Lots of stills and a few very short videos so not too much to go on there. However there was enough for me to see a very accomplished Aikido Teacher. When I watch videos I look for the pluses rather than to criticise. When I saw students practising and many 'failures' I smiled at how the uke's were not throwing themselves. Very good.
I'll go look at some Tamura ones.

I know the approaches very well so don't think I am in the slightest unaware of the various and indeed expected approaches. My approach is the different one.

That doesn't make me put down any approach though. I admire all Aikido. They are all different and so they should be.

I do not agree with most of what Tony Wagstaff and Graham Christian say but at least they had the balls to put video's up of themselves. There are a lot of people on aikiweb that ask for video of others but have never put their own up for everybody else to see and critique. If one is not willing to put up a video of themselves, then you should not ask it of others.

Yes, right. The linking of Tony and Graham is interesting too. What is it about them that causes so many people to lose their centre, their equilibrium and their common sense and to make judgemental and sometimes offensive remarks? I think it's a nice ability.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

That doesn't make me put down any approach though. I admire all Aikido. They are all different and so they should be.

So Graham stays centred. Tony does too. Draw your own conclusions about their aikido.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats

Glad to hear (read) you took some time to take a look at Alain. He is not too fond about videos. He does not want people to judge him based on some vid and perhaps dismiss it. He has similar feelings towards pictures. Hence not much material to work with...

Many forms/styles of Aikido exist which is no problem at all. Discussion occurs when making claims about something or other and that too is no problem. Like teaching to express your opinion makes you think about what you do (or think you should be doing), we interact, adapt and basically do Aikido...

To put up your vid shows cohones and makes you vulnerable. Respect.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl