Comments on: Norman Rockwell’s “The Rookie” sells for $20 millionhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/
Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball.Tue, 03 Mar 2015 19:09:05 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: stlouis1baseballhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-711963
Tue, 27 May 2014 22:05:42 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-711963I am going to have to politely disagree with your sentiment about “my point” specifically. But again, I do hear what you are saying (in general). You make a great point with regards to your last couple of sentences. It isn’t the fact that it irritates me in and of itself. It’s the fact that people are so quick to scream it when it isn’t there to begin with. I brought up an instance when it was there and you somehow tried to contort it to serve your purpose. And in my opinion, that actually does a greater disservice. Much like the story of the boy who cried wolf. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one Reflex. It’s been a long day. I am out.
Have a good evening!
]]>By: Reflexhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-711869
Tue, 27 May 2014 19:57:59 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-711869Honestly if the point has to be made by pointing out his race and status as your best friend, then the point isn’t very good to begin with. And honestly it was not. And again, the point is that you are predictably using this as a defense of those who feel there is no racism problem in America, which makes you look a bit racist yourself whether you are or not.

You bash on Craig for beating a drum, but quite frankly he beats the drum because there IS a race issue. You continue to minimize that and use your personal experiences to justify it. But that in no way changes reality for others. Social issues do not go away by being ignored, they never have and they never will. I would say that I am sorry that you are irritated by it, but really I’m not. It would be better if you questioned why it irritates you in the first place, especially since you claim to have seen some of it yourself.

]]>By: stlouis1baseballhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-711846
Tue, 27 May 2014 19:35:04 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-711846Believe me…I understand your point. But from where I sit all you saw were the words “black best friend” or “my friend who is black.” I kindly ask that you re-read my post. You will see that I ONLY pointed it out because it was critical to the point in which I was making. The ingrates actually thought there was no way he could possibly like hard rock music becaue of the color of his skin! And this wasn’t the first concert in which this has happened. And somehow…you managed to make a mountain…out of a mole hill.
]]>By: Reflexhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-711812
Tue, 27 May 2014 18:50:36 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-711812Like it or not, if your response to people pointing out your racial insensitivity is “my best friend is black” you are playing into a racist stereotype. It does not in any way bolster your case, it actually makes you look worse. A racist can still have black friends, it does not indemnify them from being racist.

I am not accusing you of being racist, I do not know you well enough to know if you are or not. But whether or not you have a black friend in no way affects whether or not you are. And the fact that your position is very predictable on threads about race, it kind of implies that you may be, at least a little bit. Someone who takes the time to continually comment on race, and always in favor of the racist side, is someone who at the least appears to be a bit racist themselves.

I don’t have a chip on my shoulder. I am in no way upset. You are one of the more intelligent posters here, I just hope that by pointing out your logical fallacies you may start to question how you are presenting yourself. It is very easy to dismiss any point you may wish to make when you keep playing up to a stereotype.

]]>By: stlouis1baseballhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-711757
Tue, 27 May 2014 17:44:16 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-711757If you would knock that chip off your shoulder you would realize my example was on point with regards to racism still being an issue in this country. Naturally, had my friend been white in that example it would not have spoken to said racism still being prevalent.
As for a “gay best friend”…my neighbors are gay. Wonderful guys. Our families spend a great deal of time together. We live in the Country and watch one another’s homes when one of us is gone for vacation, business, etc… We also tend to each other’s animals during these same scenarios. Not “best friends” by any means. But certainly “great friends.”
As for the jewish folk…none that I would consider my best friend. But I did go to school and socialize with several. Admittedl though, I am ignorant to the jewish faith, culture, etc…
Back to that chip on your shoulder…you would be far better served to get rid of it. It isn’t healthy for you. And makes you look like a complete penishead.
]]>By: [citation needed] fka COPOhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-710134
Fri, 23 May 2014 20:31:21 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-710134

serves to reinforce the right-wing stereotype of white-guilt liberalism

Again, wtf is white guilt liberalism? Amazing that so many people use this term but can’t define it. We’re entering Born Yesterday’s Alexis de Tocqueville territory…

You convinced me you are a mindless regurgitator of faux-populist propaganda put out by the useful idiots of the corporate state. If that is your victory, have at it.

Just as you have no imagination as to art, you do not understand the current art market, where a whole lot of effort is going into selling junk because the good stuff is locked away in museums and collections, yet the collecting population is bigger and richer than ever before. The prices reflect ‘fool and his money’.

I also love the irrational jump from your already irrelevant Civil War comment to the newly-irrelevant comment about the later 1950s; only you have brought the Democratic Party into this, now twice, and twice uselessly. An issue for you, huh?

Please ‘logic and experience’ out of this–they are strangers to you, and children should not play with strangers.

((for anyone coming to this at this late date for a blog post, you might avoid phil’s fate and greatly help yourself by reading “Moral Imagination” by Bromwich, a collection of essays).

]]>By: btilghmanhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709827
Fri, 23 May 2014 14:46:45 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709827Craig, my problem with this post is that it only serves to reinforce the right-wing stereotype of white-guilt liberalism that will see racism in anything. It allows them to claim that liberals are unhinged and irrational, which, coming from the side harboring climate-change deniers and creationists, is pretty rich.

No one is disputing that the 50’s Red Sox *management* was racist, but that fact has little do do with this painting (or the fact that it sold for so much). Trolling race relations as you do here does far far more damage than good.

I can almost guarantee this readership is something like 95% white, and probably 97% male. How exactly would this post foment racial unrest?

Your behavior is the reason people disrespect journalists, and why so many of you are out of work.

He’s not a journalist, he’s a blogger. The reason so many journalists are out of work is people can find better stories outside the traditional media coverage. Aka, they go somewhere else if they don’t like what they are reading. Maybe you should do the same?

]]>By: Reflexhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709658
Fri, 23 May 2014 04:30:03 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709658You’d be more believable in your outrage if you hadn’t ranted your agenda above. There is nothing Craig could explain that would satisfy you because you are hypersensitive to everything you choose to perceive as left of the positions you are wedded to.

But hey, that seems to be the in thing among the right wing these days, to create huge amounts of faux outrage to get worked up into a lather about.

]]>By: Reflexhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709654
Fri, 23 May 2014 04:17:30 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709654Man I’m glad you reminded me your best friend is black. I had almost forgotten that entirely since the last race related thread in which you assured us that you have a best black friend. It always takes me that reminder so that I realize that there is no way you could ever be unsympathetic to race issues in our country.

Out of curiosity, have you made any progress in finding a gay best friend? Or maybe you could check and see if your black friend is maybe gay? It would help a lot with other topics you wish to be an unbiased authority on…

Oh, and about the jews…maybe your friend could convert?

]]>By: philguthrie2014http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709643
Fri, 23 May 2014 03:26:26 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709643If your post had been directed at the ownership of the Red Sox, then it would have found a proper target, but it wasn’t. It attempted to imagine what the PLAYERS were thinking, and imputing racist motivations to them and/or to a great American artist.

As such it is a form of libel, albeit one that many here have attempted to weasel you out of by calling it humor.

Your attempt to state that those who disagree with you are putting forth the idea that the Red Sox ownership was a “beacon of racial tolerance” is a straw man argument. No one is saying that.

Your post was intellectually dishonest and lazy, at best a cheap stunt to drum up controversy by fomenting racial unrest through smearing people.

That you would respond to public objections by calling them “quibbles” and dismissing them with a “whatever” is pathetic.

Your behavior is the reason people disrespect journalists, and why so many of you are out of work.

]]>By: whatacrockerhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709636
Fri, 23 May 2014 03:06:18 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709636Eventually, of course, the Red Sox moved past their racism and got to work on bigger and better things, like covering up for pedophiles:

]]>By: philguthrie2014http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709633
Fri, 23 May 2014 02:58:24 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709633Every argument won against a liberal must necessarily end with insults and non-sequiturs. How else would their agenda survive without demonizing their opponents? Certainly not by force of logic or experience.

At the time this work was painted, the Democrat party was in full support of segregation. I believe that to be relevant given your obvious need to preen your supposed moral superiority.

If indeed Rockwell was homosexual, I couldn’t care less. I leave it to the Left to pigeon-hole people based on race and/or sexual-orientation. You have so much more skill and enthusiasm for it than ever I could muster.

As for the quality of the work, I believe the purchase price speaks for itself. You think anyone’s going to pay a dime for say, Robert Mapplethorpe’s “work” in 50 years? I mention him only because you seem to want to introduce gay-baiting to your race-baiting diatribe; I thought I’d throw you a bone to go with your dog whistle.

When you wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and the pig enjoys himself. More fool me.

Now you know all to well: if it aint irrefutably there, you can’t say you see it there, even if you have knowledge of context that suggests it to you. And you *especially* can’t impute something racist into an image if it’s not conclusively there. It’ll drive people nuts.

Why is it that liberals are always the first to inject race into discussions?

Because conservatives think racism ended with Rosa Parks? If we’re making blanket statements…

talking/writing Exhibit A for liberal white guilt.

It’s been 7+ hours since I asked, getting some thumbs down but no responses. What exactly is white guilt and what should I feel guilty about?

]]>By: Craig Calcaterrahttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709606
Fri, 23 May 2014 01:48:24 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709606That wasn’t the point. Nothing in the painting itself suggest that. The era of the painting and the team’s history of that time period establishes that it would be shocking indeed if a black player were on the Red Sox at that time.
]]>By: [citation needed] fka COPOhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709604
Fri, 23 May 2014 01:46:22 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709604

that the players portrayed are worried that “the rookie” might have been African American

It’s called a joke genius. A sense of humor? try it sometime…

]]>By: therealtrencheshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709600
Fri, 23 May 2014 01:39:00 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709600Craig, without referring to context, explain which part of the painting even suggests — let alone conclusively shows — that the players portrayed are worried that “the rookie” might have been African American. Analyze the visual evidence and prove your interpretation. And if you can’t, then retract it. It’s pretty simple actually.
]]>By: Ryanhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709591
Fri, 23 May 2014 01:19:39 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709591Right on, Craig. I remember, growing up a Red Sox fan, being aghast when I learned about their awful history with black players in the ’40s and ’50s. Especially since I had always thought Tom Yawkey must have been great since they named a street after him. As always, things are more complicated than they initially seem.

Also, holy crap, the “not ALL white people” people in this thread need to get a grip.

Without going person by person, if anyone would like to argue about the Red Sox of the 1950s being a beacon of racial tolerance, by all means do so. I happen to have history on my side in noting that the Red Sox were the absolute dead last team to integrate, not doing do until two years after this painting saw the light of day.

Quibble if you will. Say I besmirched the name of some players in the painting. Whatever. But there was not a more retrograde team, racially speaking, than the Boston Red Sox. That is fact.

]]>By: denny65http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709562
Fri, 23 May 2014 00:31:59 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709562Why is it that liberals are always the first to inject race into discussions?

]]>By: [citation needed] fka COPOhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709559
Fri, 23 May 2014 00:30:48 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709559Excellent article, and the conclusion was completely different than what I imagined. Although I should have known better, the West Wing did something very similar (S1E18, Six Meetings Before Lunch)
]]>By: clemente2http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709525
Thu, 22 May 2014 23:41:29 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709525dluxxx. loved this.
]]>By: clemente2http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709521
Thu, 22 May 2014 23:38:27 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709521Try this—the post is not about the painting. It is not about Rockwell. Its about a joke derived from the letters on the painted players. On the baseball history those letters evoke.
]]>By: clemente2http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709518
Thu, 22 May 2014 23:33:39 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709518Not my point. Thanks for reading.
]]>By: clemente2http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709516
Thu, 22 May 2014 23:30:15 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709516Oh, boy, phil, you came right out and gave us the agenda—there you go, stlouis, see if you want to sit in that pile now.

“Race baiting” is a term like “race card” used by racists to hide their true feelings from a society that for the most part finds their feelings repellant.

Was the comment about Democratic Party support for slavery 150 years ago part of today’s Glenn Beck feed? This truly counts as effective argument for you?

I take it back, phil—you should not try to defend your relatives—you do them only dishonor. (And if somehow you think NRockwell is the glory of ‘old time values’, you need not only remedial reading but a course in aesthetics. Oh, yea, your hero Norman was gay–you know, one of those people trying to “fundamentally transform the country”.

Barf.

]]>By: jm91rshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709510
Thu, 22 May 2014 23:21:57 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709510I don’t even hear the drum anymore I guess. Eventually people are what they are and it’s pretty easy to block out the parts I don’t want to hear. Side note, how hard of rock are we talking?
]]>By: koufaxmitzvahhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/22/norman-rockwells-the-rookie-sells-for-20-million/comment-page-1/#comment-709452
Thu, 22 May 2014 22:14:36 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=522550#comment-709452You are the wholesome type, that is true. Very Middle America. I, on the other hand, would mail you a copy of Blazing Saddles. Because nothing’s more American than a Western written by a black man and directed by a Jew.
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