Just a general statement. I sometimes take a peek at sites such as Metacritic and many of the user reviews are just depressing. Like, say a game got a 68/100. Far from great, but it got decent reviews. No matter what game it is, there will be users who hand out 10s and claim the reviewers don't know what they're talking about. I guess it's because they feel reviews exist to tell them they have great taste and when their opinion doesn't overlap with that of the avarage reviewer, they think they need to show the world how they are right and everyone else is wrong. Which is silly, of course, because there is nothing wrong with liking a game that got decent reviews. It's totally okay to enjoy something that didn't receive 9s and 10s and say to yourself, well, this has its flaws, but I had a good time.

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I also don't like this reasoning - "If you enjoy that part so much you're able to ignore the flaws and enjoy the game" because "flaws" might not actually be "flaws" depending on the experience/preferences of each person(difficulty immediately comes to mind for example). There are little things that can be undeniable, uncontestable and objective flaws.

Oh, I agree that flaws can be subjective, but lots of games suffer from poor design choices. Even if you can't measure them like loading times or count them like game freezing bugs, I think we can generally agree things like unnecessary complex menus or unimaginative, linear dungeons are flaws. Not everyone will be bothered by them to the same degree, but that doesn't mean they aren't flaws.

It's not a bad thing to take a good look at what you play once in a while and try to figure out what makes it good and what could have been done better. At the very least it will help you get a better understanding of what you look for in a game.

I agree with 90% of what you said except for:-"unnecessary complex menus" - The use of the word unecessary is tricky because it might actually be necessary, especially if there are tons of things in the game(RTS's and some other games come to mind), the fact something is "overly complex" is not an actual fact. It might be overly complex for your tastes but not for Richard. In fact Richard might love the complexity of it, for you it might be complexity for complexity sake but for Richard it might be heaven to intrically explore the game's various mechanics/menus and such.- "unimaginative, linear dungeons are flaws" - Again this is completely subjective, you might think it's unimaginative but once again Richard might not, the fact that something is imaginative depends on your definition of something with imagination behind it, also linear design is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people enjoy straightforward dungeons, I prefer a good balance but I don't think they are inherently bad and again many like the simplicity of something linear or the focused nature of it.

And lastly you assume that people are necessarily bothered by these when they might actually enjoy these aspects. To me something that would be an undeniable flaw would be something along the lines of Framerate problems, game breaking bugs,etc.

The closest game I can think of would be FFX. I don't love it by any means, but I think the battle system is pretty solid, and the art design is fairly cool.The story, on the other hand...

"HA HA HA HA HA! HA HA HA HA HA! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA..."

...and I think that quote speaks for itself. It didn't help that Tidus was one of the most whiny POS's I've seen. And so, while I like the game, devoid of it's actual story, the story turns the whole experience into something that I'm not really proud to say I actually like at all.

Generally, if a RPG has mediocre-or-below gameplay, but a good story, I have no problem with liking it. When a game has good gameplay but a meh story, I still have no problem with liking it. But when a game still has good gameplay, but at least has elements of the story that I consider downright insulting, ("HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!) that's when I have a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8cYou do realize that the "HAHAHAHAHAHA" scene is FORCED LAUGHTER right? It's cringeworthy on purpose, that's the actual intent of the cutscene..Proceeding the forced laughter comes genuine laughter from the characters due to the ridiculousness of the situation. Tidus was trying to lighten up the mood and teach Yuna that life can be full of joy even under serious/horrible circumstances.And yeah nice analysis there friend "It didn't help that Tidus was one of the most whiny POS's ", very eloquent. -

I can't think of any favourites I'm ashamed of liking. There is nothing wrong with liking a bad game for the right reasons. Some are terrible in a way that's just so funny you want to keep playing. Nothing wrong with having a good laugh, right? And honestly, most games so atleast something right. If you enjoy that part so much you're able to ignore the flaws and enjoy the game, well, good for you. Just don't go all raving an ranting about how reviewers know nothing and your opinion is fact. That's annoying.

So I will now proudly announce that I like Final Fantasy Mystic Quest / Mystic Quest Legend. The back to basics approach is something I can appreciate having played it back when I was so young I could barely read any English. Also, killer soundtrack.

What else? I had a ton of fun with the first two Ar Tonelicos. Yeah, could have toned down the awkward fanservice a lot, but hey everything else was pretty awesome.

Oh, and I enjoyed Suikoden IV. It was a bit of disappointment after II and III, but on the other hand: nice boats.

Mystic Quest is a lovely game! The OST in particular is one of my favorites on the SNES. If/When SNES games are added to the 3DS VC, I hope that one gets added.

You do realize that the "HAHAHAHAHAHA" scene is FORCED LAUGHTER right? It's cringeworthy on purpose, that's the actual intent of the cutscene..Proceeding the forced laughter comes genuine laughter from the characters due to the ridiculousness of the situation. Tidus was trying to lighten up the mood and teach Yuna that life can be full of joy even under serious/horrible circumstances.

Yeah, I got that. Except I figured that the best way life can be 'full of joy' is to not take away said joy from the audience, even if doing so was unintentional.

Also, sorry if I came off as a bit rude. Let me say instead that Tidus was rather annoying and unlikeable. Is that better?

I agree with 90% of what you said except for:-"unnecessary complex menus" - The use of the word unecessary is tricky because it might actually be necessary, especially if there are tons of things in the game(RTS's and some other games come to mind), the fact something is "overly complex" is not an actual fact. It might be overly complex for your tastes but not for Richard. In fact Richard might love the complexity of it, for you it might be complexity for complexity sake but for Richard it might be heaven to intrically explore the game's various mechanics/menus and such.

There is nothing wrong with a game having complex systems, but using those systems should be as easy as possible. If menus are hard to navigate it's a flaw. Sure, Richard may not care since he has some kind of crazy menu fetish, but that doesn't mean it won't be a problem for the majority of players :)

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- "unimaginative, linear dungeons are flaws" - Again this is completely subjective, you might think it's unimaginative but once again Richard might not, the fact that something is imaginative depends on your definition of something with imagination behind it, also linear design is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people enjoy straightforward dungeons, I prefer a good balance but I don't think they are inherently bad and again many like the simplicity of something linear or the focused nature of it.

So it's okay for developers to half ass it because some people may not mind it? Every part of a game serves a purpose. If you just have a dungeon for the sake of having a dungeon, it may as well not be there. Those long corridors do nothing but stretch the length of the game in one of the laziest ways possible. There will always people who won't mind that, but that doesn't mean it's not a shortcoming.

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And lastly you assume that people are necessarily bothered by these when they might actually enjoy these aspects. To me something that would be an undeniable flaw would be something along the lines of Framerate problems, game breaking bugs,etc.

Of course things like that are annoying but bad design goes way beyond that and it's important to take that into account when discussing games. If we don't, we might as well shut up and never talk about games again.

I mean, I'd dread writing a review in which I can do nothing but state the facts.

"It takes 3 tot 6 seconds to load a battle. The music changes when you enter a battle. Battles are turn-based. There are one to four characters in your party."

There are some visual novels that are very much guilty pleasures for me. Let's Meow Meow is a very stupid and sometimes creepy eroge. I should not like this game. I have better taste than that. But damn it all, I enjoyed it. Most people would say they're embarrassed to play eroge in general, but I can say with confidence that I thoroughly enjoyed Crescendo (easily one of the best VNs I've played, period). But I generally don't reveal that I liked Let's Meow Meow. If I were an outside reading this, I would point and laugh at me.

And Arkhaos- I too kinda liked Last Rebellion. I stand by my review of it. It had potential and could have been a good game, but ended up mediocre. I've played worse.

I agree with 90% of what you said except for:-"unnecessary complex menus" - The use of the word unecessary is tricky because it might actually be necessary, especially if there are tons of things in the game(RTS's and some other games come to mind), the fact something is "overly complex" is not an actual fact. It might be overly complex for your tastes but not for Richard. In fact Richard might love the complexity of it, for you it might be complexity for complexity sake but for Richard it might be heaven to intrically explore the game's various mechanics/menus and such.

There is nothing wrong with a game having complex systems, but using those systems should be as easy as possible. If menus are hard to navigate it's a flaw. Sure, Richard may not care since he has some kind of crazy menu fetish, but that doesn't mean it won't be a problem for the majority of players :)

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- "unimaginative, linear dungeons are flaws" - Again this is completely subjective, you might think it's unimaginative but once again Richard might not, the fact that something is imaginative depends on your definition of something with imagination behind it, also linear design is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people enjoy straightforward dungeons, I prefer a good balance but I don't think they are inherently bad and again many like the simplicity of something linear or the focused nature of it.

So it's okay for developers to half ass it because some people may not mind it? Every part of a game serves a purpose. If you just have a dungeon for the sake of having a dungeon, it may as well not be there. Those long corridors do nothing but stretch the length of the game in one of the laziest ways possible. There will always people who won't mind that, but that doesn't mean it's not a shortcoming.

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And lastly you assume that people are necessarily bothered by these when they might actually enjoy these aspects. To me something that would be an undeniable flaw would be something along the lines of Framerate problems, game breaking bugs,etc.

Of course things like that are annoying but bad design goes way beyond that and it's important to take that into account when discussing games. If we don't, we might as well shut up and never talk about games again.

I mean, I'd dread writing a review in which I can do nothing but state the facts.

"It takes 3 tot 6 seconds to load a battle. The music changes when you enter a battle. Battles are turn-based. There are one to four characters in your party."

Ok in that sense I get the menu complaints, I guess Richard is a freak after all.As far as the dungeon goes, it depends on the developers intent. Maybe they designed the game that way on purpose for that specific audience you know? I still stand by the imagination bit though. Once again, linearity is not necessarily bad. FF X has pretty linear dungeon designs and they are still fantastic.Also Im not saying we should all shut up because almost everything is subjective, all Im saying is that we should be careful with the delivery of said opinions in terms of tonality more specifically. In fact, discussing and being critical is essential for the betterment of oneself.Also a review is an opinion and should be presented as such.Oh and also regarding the "Enjoy while still being aware of the flaws" thing, the problem with that is also that you are negating discussion and criticism of your criticism of the game. You are assuming they are undeniably flaws(mind you the examples we were discussing are extremes, there are much more disagreeable things) when it might be in fact debatable(ex: FF X's linearity, Xenogears 2nd disk, dark souls difficulty, etc)

You do realize that the "HAHAHAHAHAHA" scene is FORCED LAUGHTER right? It's cringeworthy on purpose, that's the actual intent of the cutscene..Proceeding the forced laughter comes genuine laughter from the characters due to the ridiculousness of the situation. Tidus was trying to lighten up the mood and teach Yuna that life can be full of joy even under serious/horrible circumstances.

Yeah, I got that. Except I figured that the best way life can be 'full of joy' is to not take away said joy from the audience, even if doing so was unintentional.

Also, sorry if I came off as a bit rude. Let me say instead that Tidus was rather annoying and unlikeable. Is that better?

Eh, between this and the waifu thread, I'm surprised we haven't been more perv-creepy. For the sake of professional decorum I probably should have stayed out of these threads, but dammit I couldn't.

EDIT: A lot of people think I'm crazy to have beaten Thousand Arms twice to completion. Sure the endgame was a letdown and combat was tedious, but I loved the game and sport the Meis avatar. I want this on PSN.

I agree with Monsoon, Dragon Age II was IMO a wonderful game, let's see...I loved Enchanted Arms...Rogue Galaxy is one of the best games I have ever played and yeah Ar Tonelico is kinda hard to explain liking, hell, any JRPG's with characters who look so anime is a stretch for me to explain to co-workers...so I don't

EDIT: A lot of people think I'm crazy to have beaten Thousand Arms twice to completion. Sure the endgame was a letdown and combat was tedious, but I loved the game and sport the Meis avatar. I want this on PSN.

I've done the same thing, yet I haven't had anyone say anything about it. The game was pretty enjoyable for me, though I agree the endgame could have been better.

Back to the topic, I'm not really ashamed to like any of the games I've played so far.

I agree with Monsoon, Dragon Age II was IMO a wonderful game, let's see...I loved Enchanted Arms...Rogue Galaxy is one of the best games I have ever played and yeah Ar Tonelico is kinda hard to explain liking, hell, any JRPG's with characters who look so anime is a stretch for me to explain to co-workers...so I don't

Wait a second, it's shameful to love Rogue Galaxy!? That game ****ing rules! I won't say it has the deepest story or characters, but the combat and skill customization and weapon fusion were all fantastic!

I agree with Monsoon, Dragon Age II was IMO a wonderful game, let's see...I loved Enchanted Arms...Rogue Galaxy is one of the best games I have ever played and yeah Ar Tonelico is kinda hard to explain liking, hell, any JRPG's with characters who look so anime is a stretch for me to explain to co-workers...so I don't

Wait a second, it's shameful to love Rogue Galaxy!? That game ****ing rules! I won't say it has the deepest story or characters, but the combat and skill customization and weapon fusion were all fantastic!

It's more like the game sticks the worst dungeon in the game right at the beginning. I quit on the prison the first time I tried playing it and when I tried playing it AGAIN and got past the prison it was all like OOOOH this is pretty neat.

This game better be about giant goddamn mounds of ambulatory pubes with teenagers at the center, controlling them and using them to fight the giant space aliens invading Tokyo City, because everyone knows aliens are afraid of pubic hair hashtag thanks obama

« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:09:46 AM by MeshGearFox »

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o/` I do not feel joy o/`o/` I do not dream o/`o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`