Yes, I did see your frozen pizzas. That even gave me pause to wonder whether it would be possible to bake up a bunch of HRI clone pizzas along the lines as prepared by HRI in its frozen pizza plants and freeze them for future use. The HRI clone pizzas I made were considerably cheaper than even their frozen pizzas.

No. I have played the role of researcher and consultant on the HRI clones. Usually my preference is to work on my own until I am satisfied with the results. I also do not want to attract people who join the forum only to lift the clone recipes without deserving them. Recipes and photos are magnets for such people.

The pizza rim looked nice when I put it into the oven but collapsed during the pre-bake. Any ideas how to do that better? My docking way useless, giant bubbles formed during the pre-bake which I poked flat. Fortunately, the toppings cover a multitude of sins. The pizza tasted good, though. We scarfed it down handily. Of course there are pictures to show the errors of my process.

Bob,I used two links of Meijer's Italian Sausage, which was 8 oz. I think Peter suggested 7 oz for the pizza but what would I do with 1 oz of sausage? Used 8 oz of Costo Mozz. and about 4 1/2 oz of mushrooms, sauteed a bit to cook off some moisture. I'm still having problems with that rim, though.

Norma,How did you get the rim to stay upright? It isn't working for me. It looked good going into the oven but then collapsed.Although the giant blisters probably pushed down much of the rim.

Jay,

I rolled the dough right out of the fridge. I donít know if you did that or not. I canít explain why my fluted rim stayed upright though. If you look at my photos of my last attempt the pre-baked rim is not altogether upright. It did slump a little.

I wonder how the rim stays upright at HRI pizzerias when they are dealing with many skins. That has wondered me for awhile. I would think after their dough becomes warm it would be harder to make the fluted rim stay upright. Back in the day when they tossed and twirled their skins, I would think that would have been more of a problem to keep the fluted rim upright. I donít know if the mixing method isnít right, or there might be something else we are missing.

I agree with the others that your pizza turned out well despite the collapse of the skin and the bubbling of the pre-baked crust. I have been using a commercial dough docker and have not experienced any problems using that tool. In using that docker, I dock only enough to cover the entire surface of the skin which, for a 12" pizza, is two side-by-side passes across the surface. I do not dock on both sides. I believe that HRI docks only on one side, from the top, even though the holes can be seen on the bottom of their frozen pizzas (and certainly under the sauce). You can see what my dough docker looks like in the first photo in Reply 389 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720. I had forgotten this, but that post also describes a pre-bake scenario.

What I found most instructive about your latest effort is that your results seem to refute the notion that using a lower hydration is the answer to being able to form a fluted rim that will remain intact throughout the entire baking process. This has been nagging at me for some time. I believe that there may be a technique that best works to form the fluted rim (more on this below) but the answer may lie elsewhere. For example, it might be necessary to pre-bake at a higher temperature to cause the fluted/docked skin to set sooner. In its frozen pizza plants, HRI uses 490 degrees F for 90 seconds. However, that is for a rounded rim, not a fluted one, and the ovens are conveyor ovens. In a home setting, a higher pre-bake temperature might be needed. Even then, I would perhaps let the formed and docked skin rest on its carrier for 15 minutes, reform the fluted rim if necessary, and then conduct the pre-bake. Using the slightly warmed up skin should allow it to bake and set faster as compared with a completely cold dough.

Using a cutter pan may be worth trying. I know that it will work as a baking medium since I have tried it. My cutter pan is 14" and perforated and it is heavier than the 16" perforated disk I have been using. The added mass of the cutter pan in my case might necessitate a higher pre-bake temperature and time to overcome the thermal inertial of the cutter pan.

As for forming the fluted rim, I have closely studied everything I could find in the literature, and especially photos, that deal with this step. One of the things that I have noticed is that a pedestal seems to be formed in the skin at the base of the perforated disk, at the lower perimeter of the skin. I think one of the better photos that shows this is the photo at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. Note how the skin almost overlaps the disk at its perimeter. A similar pedestal effect can be seen at about 3:07 in the video in Reply 195 but where the skin does not overlap the disk at any point. The pedestal effect can also be seen, but not quited as clearly, at around 0:30 in the first video shown at Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309 . I don't mean to suggest that forming the rim as shown in Replies 195 and 304 will solve all of the rim issues but it may help.

I wonder how the rim stays upright at HRI pizzerias when they are dealing with many skins. That has wondered me for awhile. I would think after their dough becomes warm it would be harder to make the fluted rim stay upright. Back in the day when they tossed and twirled their skins, I would think that would have been more of a problem to keep the fluted rim upright. I donít know if the mixing method isnít right, or there might be something else we are missing.

Norma,

I think the answer is that in a high volume operation you are going to see a wide variation in the nature and quality of the final product. Just look back to the Mack's experience and how their pizzas are all over the place, to the point where you seem to be disgusted with Mack's. You and I are at a disadvantage in our HRI cloning effort because we have never had real pizzas from an HRI pizzeria. If we sampled several of their pizzas at different times and at different HRI pizzerias we would have a much better idea as to the characteristics of the finished crusts. And they would be first hand observations, not based on recollections that go back several years and may be a bit murky. After all, most people just eat and enjoy pizza. They don't analyze and scrutinize it.

I think the answer is that in a high volume operation you are going to see a wide variation in the nature and quality of the final product. Just look back to the Mack's experience and how their pizzas are all over the place, to the point where you seem to be disgusted with Mack's. You and I are at a disadvantage in our HRI cloning effort because we have never had real pizzas from an HRI pizzeria. If we sampled several of their pizzas at different times and at different HRI pizzerias we would have a much better idea as to the characteristics of the finished crusts. And they would be first hand observations, not based on recollections that go back several years and may be a bit murky. After all, most people just eat and enjoy pizza. They don't analyze and scrutinize it.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that in a high volume operation you might be able to see a wide variation in the nature of the quality of the final product. I do know what I found out from all the Mackís experiences I had and what other people posted about Mackís pizzas on the reviews. I agree Mackís is all over the place now too. I am disgusted with the real Mackís pizzas right now. I also have seen comments from members here on the forum that have tasted Buddyís pizzas at different locations over the years and saw there are mixed reviews from them too.

I understand if we had the opportunity to try HRI pizzerias over the years, it would help a lot.

What I find interesting about those photos, other than the gum line is how thin the bottom crust looks. I donít think any of my attempts with the TF I tried looked that thin. I also didnít know that there was a garlic butter crust. Does anyone know if those photos are from a garlic butter crust?

I was wondering if a garlic butter is brushed on the skin before the pizza is dressed. If it is, I could see how that could help the sauce not being able to migrate into the skin of the unbaked pizza and also the crust tasting better after the bake. I also reread that article and it said that the basic crust at Home Run Inn is not particularly flavorful, so an adequate dose of garlic butter is really key to a particularly successful pizza there.

Are there any ways to go about trying an attempt with a garlic butter crust? I might try another attempt for this weekend, but am not sure. Are there any other things I need to know if I make another attempt in doing something differently?

What I find interesting about those photos, other than the gum line is how thin the bottom crust looks. I donít think any of my attempts with the TF I tried looked that thin.

Norma,

The photo in the blog that you referenced shows quite a bit of stuff on the pizza. I think the sheer volume and weight of the cheese and toppings on that pizza would limit the degree of rise of the dough, especially at the middle of the pizza. Under the circumstances, I can see how a gum line could form.

As I noted in a post some time ago, when I dismantled two of the frozen HRI pizzas and weighed the crusts, the weights were 14.71 and 14.42 ounces. By the time I was done scrubbing those two crusts, they were like a blank canvas (not quite, but I think you get the idea). No doubt there are variations in dough ball weights due to tolerances of dough chunking and dough dividing/rounding equipment, but I do not believe that the crusts of HRI's pizzas appear thin because of the weight of the dough ball. It is hard for me to imagine that HRI would use different dough ball weights for their frozen pizzas as they use for pizzas of the same size made in their pizzerias.

A little more on yesterdayís HRI clone attempt:Iím accustomed to pre-baking on the lowest oven rack but Iíve only done that with non-perforated pans, clearly I shouldnít have done that with the perforated disk. The bottom of the pizza was overdone far before the top was nicely browned. I nearly burned the bottom of the pizza. The crust was a little underdone in the center and Iíd have baked a little longer if the dough wasnít ready to start burning on the bottom. I think a little more dancing among the oven levels will prevent that the next time. The next time Iíll do the pre-bake at least one level higher, even if using a non-perforated cutter pan. Iím unsure if the oven temperature needs to be a bit higher to compensate for the thicker cutter pan.Thanks, Peter for posting the link to the dough docker picture, the procedure for doing a summertime pizza w/o heating up the whole house addressed some concerns of mine about doing pizza this simmer. Iíve ordered a dough docker to prevent my bubbling problems. I should be ready for another try at this next week, using my favorite Italian deliís Mozzarella instead of the Costco cheese that I used in this last attempt.

The photo in the blog that you referenced shows quite a bit of stuff on the pizza. I think the sheer volume and weight of the cheese and toppings on that pizza would limit the degree of rise of the dough, especially at the middle of the pizza. Under the circumstances, I can see how a gum line could form.

As I noted in a post some time ago, when I dismantled two of the frozen HRI pizzas and weighed the crusts, the weights were 14.71 and 14.42 ounces. By the time I was done scrubbing those two crusts, they were like a blank canvas (not quite, but I think you get the idea). No doubt there are variations in dough ball weights due to tolerances of dough chunking and dough dividing/rounding equipment, but I do not believe that the crusts of HRI's pizzas appear thin because of the weight of the dough ball. It is hard for me to imagine that HRI would use different dough ball weights for their frozen pizzas as they use for pizzas of the same size made in their pizzerias.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your observations and comments about that photo in that blog. What you posted makes sense to me.

I do get the idea of when you scrubbed those two crusts and then how much their weighed. I know you do everything thoroughly. Thanks also for saying that you donít believe HRI would use different dough ball weights for their frozen pizzas and their doughs balls they use at HRI pizzerias.

I have one of those small frozen HRI thin crust pizzas left to bake. Is there anything you want me to note when trying to bake that pizza? I want to see if the layers will appear on that crust in the bake.

I have one of those small frozen HRI thin crust pizzas left to bake. Is there anything you want me to note when trying to bake that pizza? I want to see if the layers will appear on that crust in the bake.

Norma,

I think I would just make the pizza and enjoy it. Even though I have never had a real HRI pizzeria pizza, I have come to view the frozen HRI pizzas and the HRI pizzeria pizzas as two different products. I know that there are quite a few people who say that the frozen HRI pizzas are just like the ones sold in the HRI pizzerias, and HRI itself likes to perpetuate this myth (in my opinion) at Facebook (after all, the real money is in the frozen pizzas), but I have also seen reviews where the reviewers said that the two products were not the same. To take a product that was created in 1947 and intended for a deck oven and pretend that you can make thousands of credible clone pizza per hour in frozen pizza factories without anyone noticing the difference strains credulity in my opinion. Once you get into massive automation, and no matter how advanced and sophisticated and automated the equipment, the pizza coming off of the assembly line will not be as good as the one that Nick Perrino made in 1947. And perhaps not as good as those that followed in the HRI pizzerias over the ensuing years.

I think I would just make the pizza and enjoy it. Even though I have never had a real HRI pizzeria pizza, I have come to view the frozen HRI pizzas and the HRI pizzeria pizzas as two different products. I know that there are quite a few people who say that the frozen HRI pizzas are just like the ones sold in the HRI pizzerias, and HRI itself likes to perpetuate this myth (in my opinion) at Facebook (after all, the real money is in the frozen pizzas), but I have also seen reviews where the reviewers said that the two products were not the same. To take a product that was created in 1947 and intended for a deck oven and pretend that you can make thousands of credible clone pizza per hour in frozen pizza factories without anyone noticing the difference strains credulity in my opinion. Once you get into massive automation, and no matter how advanced and sophisticated and automated the equipment, the pizza coming off of the assembly line will not be as good as the one that Nick Perrino made in 1947. And perhaps not as good as those that followed in the HRI pizzerias over the ensuing years.

Peter

Peter,

I agree with everything you posted. After tasting a couple of frozen HRI pizzas I donít believe there is any way a frozen HRI pizza could taste the same as a real HRI pizza of years ago by Nick Perrino, or even ones that HRI pizzerias make now.