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McLaurin Oral History Interview with John L. LeFlore

[The following transcription was made from taped interviews with John L. LeFlore,
1970-1972. The tapes are part of the Melton McLaurin Collection at The McCall Library.]

[October 9, 1972]Dr. McLaurin: [Missing ...] a successful effort that took place in 1947 to equalize salaries paid
to black and white school teachers who held the same professional qualifications,
the same degree status. I understand that Joseph Langan, who was then a state senator
from Mobile County and who was himself, if I'm not mistaken, a returned veteran, and
who was white, was instrumental in working to get this equalization. I also understand
that the Mobile chapter of the NAACP was quite active in this. Would you comment on
your roll, the Mobile NAACP's role, and also at the end of your specific comments
about these efforts, could you say that in your opinion, the efforts or desires of
returning veterans had anything to do with the push that was made immediately after
the war to obtain an equalization in salaries?

Mr. Leflore: Dr. McLaurin, at that particular time in the year 1947 the NAACP Mobile Branch was
headed by W. L. Bolden and B. G. Johnson and J. L. Leflore. At that time I was the
executive secretary. It was through the efforts of my office that a seven-point civil
rights petition was filed with the Mobile County Legislative Delegation for a meeting
in the old courthouse building. Attorney Joe Langan was the only state senator from
Mobile County at that time. So Mr. Langan as state senator from this particular county
had very much, I would say, potent power with regard to legislation that affected
Mobile County. You had three members of the House at that time and one was, that I
can remember, Attorney George Stone who is also still living. I've forgotten the names
of the other two…. This petition asked, among other things, for equal education opportunities
for blacks at the secondary level and also at the college level. We also asked for
equal teachers salaries for black teachers of Mobile County. It so happened that the
legislative delegation questioned us quite closely with regard to equal teachers salaries
and in relation thereto, we also asked for a reduction of the pupil load of black
teachers. Black teachers at that time had in some instances as much as twice as many
students in numbers as white teachers. The legislative delegation questioned us quite
closely. A copy of the petition was presented to each member of the delegation. We
were able to very truthfully and authentically point out that black teachers were
receiving just a little more than half the salary of white teachers and at the same
time they had a much heavier pupil load. I can well remember that Senator Langan had
little to say at that particular meeting. But two days later, he made a public declaration
that he would not vote for another penny's tax for the Mobile County Public School
system until it equalized the salaries of white and black teachers. Of course that
fell like a bombshell on the community. It was certainly surprising to black people
that he would take such a forthright stand back in that day, and it was shocking to
the white people, the white community, that he would go all out for justice for black
teachers. As a consequence of his action, the Mobile County Public School system began
an equalization of salaries for white and black teachers, to bring the black teachers
up to parity with the white teachers. I do recall as an example, that Mrs. Florence
Howard, who was then a principle at Caldwell School, mentioned that her salary was
increased $700 a year as the result of Mr. Langan's very bold and courageous stand.
However, there were repercussions in store for Joe Langan. When he ran for re-election
he was overwhelmingly defeated by Attorney Tom Johnson, who used the race question
and Mr. Langan's fair position toward blacks to defeat him.

Dr. McLaurin: Was this election the following year in 1948 or do you recall?

Mr. Leflore: The election was not the following year because I recall in the following year Joe
Langan took a very firm stand against the Boswell Amendment which came into being
after the outlawing of the white primary, not necessarily the outlawing of the white
primary in Alabama, but outlawing the white primary by the Supreme Court in Smith
vs. Allwright in Texas.

Dr. McLaurin: Could you comment on – you said two of the things that you asked were 1) equalization
of salaries 2) equalization of higher educational opportunities 3) equalization of
the number of pupils in the classroom. Can you think of any other of the seven points
that you asked for to the Mobile School Board?

[Missing: Mr. LeFlore's response was not recorded.]

Dr. McLaurin: [Missing...] the admission of blacks to a welding school. Would you care to comment
on that in a little more detail if possible?

Mr. Leflore: Dr. McLaurin, there was a rigid system of segregation and discrimination against
blacks in almost every facet of public life in the early forties and during the war
and despite the fact that the Japanese and the Germans were sinking our ships at a
very rapid rate. There were those among the whites whose prejudice was so rigid, so
strongly imbedded, that they did not want blacks to have any kind of training that
would prepare them for skilled jobs. We especially remember the situation with regard
to a man who was the vocational coordinator here at that time and whose office was
located in the Mobile County public school building. They were using federal funds
and I don't know as to whether he (Mr. Ward) was working for the school board…but
they were very definitely using federal funds, and the program was being sponsored
primarily with federal money. But Mr. Ward took a very firm stance against training
blacks for skilled work. We, by almost constantly protesting to the War Manpower Commission
in Washington, we were able to have that condition corrected at least to the point
that a welding school was established for blacks on a segregated basis at the foot
of Government Street. It was from that school that Henry Williams, who is now the
welding instructor at Carver State School, got his training, and I think he will readily
tell the public if asked that it was through the efforts of some certain people, John
Leflore and others, that he was able to get that training. Hundreds of blacks were
trained for welding at the Alabama Dry Dock and Shipbuilding Company and those that
were unable to get jobs at Alabama, they were sent to Sun Shipbuilding Company at
Chester, Pennsylvania, and they worked in skilled jobs up there.

Dr. McLaurin: Mr. Leflore, in general during the war years, during the 1940s and the immediate
post-war years say until 1948, when you or other members of the black community sought
to obtain aid, where did you turn to? I've noticed that during the war years you referred
to the War Manpower Commission and writing the War Manpower Commission and I've noticed
that in 1947 you did go to the Mobile County Delegation. In general did you find that
you had to turn to federal sources, outside sources, to try to achieve a degree of
equality in educational facilities and in other facilities, or did you feel that you
could talk to the county delegation prior to 1947 or 1948, the county delegation that
is? Could you answer that question please?

Mr. Leflore: Dr. McLaurin, it all depended upon in which area you were working. Where federal
programs were concerned as it related to industry, we felt that the better result
could be achieved by going directly to the federal government. In instances of education
we started with the local people in seeking remedy and if that had failed we were
going to institute legal action in the federal courts to try to bring about desirable
change. As is known in 1947, Brown v. Topeka Board of Education was about seven years
away and there had been no set precedent by the Supreme Court with regard to equal
educational opportunities. But this was an action that we took because we felt it
was our only hope at that time to try to get a bad condition remedied, and that is
why we went to the Mobile County Legislative Delegation.

Dr. McLaurin: Mr. Leflore, if I could I'd like to change the subject to voter registration. In
[a] previous taping we've discussed the situation that existed in 1944 when for all
practical purposes in Mobile County blacks were simply not allowed to vote except
in the general election, and that very few even voted in the general election because
of the white primary laws. No blacks as I understand it voted in the Democratic primaries
in Mobile. Now in 1944, in the May primary, you, along with a number of other leaders
of the black community, after the ruling in the Smith v. Allwright case the previous
year in which the Supreme Court had outlawed the white primary in Texas, you and a
group of leaders from the black community went to the polling places and requested
the right to vote. You were registered at that time I guess. I'd like you to comment
on that situation. I know you were denied the right to vote. Do you recall A) if you
were registered; B) being denied the right to vote; C) what the immediate response
was in the black community after the denial to vote? Was there a suit filed in 1944
which may have led to the Boswell Amendment?

Mr. Leflore: What actually happened was that we were very closely associated with the gentlemen
who now sits on the Supreme Court as associate justice, the Honorable Thurgood Marshall,
who was at that time special counsel of the NAACP. It was through the guidance we
had from Mr. Marshall that we were able to put these cases together with regard to
the denial of the right to vote in the Democratic primary in Alabama. Back in that
day, less than thirty years ago, for one to win in the primary was tantamount to election
because the Republican Party had no particular strength in the South. It was just
a party of patronage. There were only a few whites who had any membership in the Republican
Party and those who had it, there may have been a few that were dedicated, but most
of them who were in it, were in it just for what they could get out of it when the
elections would come around in the form of patronage. We found in many instances that
the Republicans were worse, they were diehards on the race question, and it was just
a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils where the Democrats were worse
than the Republicans or vice versa with regard to race. The NAACP sent live photographers
in here for the primary of that year, which I am quite certain was held in May. These
photographers conferred with us on the eve of the primary, on the day before, and
we agreed that we would be at certain wards at certain hours in the afternoon.

Dr. McLaurin: Now, were you registered at that time, had you been allowed to register to vote in
the general election?

Mr. Leflore: We were registered, but getting registered at that time, Dr. McLaurin, when you retrospect
about the difficult conditions, the Board of Registrars had unlimited power and they
would compel you to recite or read from certain sections of the Constitution of the
United States and to interpret those sections of the Constitution. No doubt, the people
who were questioning you didn't know as much about the Constitution, or knew no more
than most of the people who were being registered, but they had the power to deny
you the right of registration. In addition to that, there was a retroactive feature
about your poll tax payment. If you waited until you were forty or fifty to get registered
to vote, you had to pay retroactive poll tax back to your twenty-first birthday, although
between twenty-one and forty-eight or fifty years of age you made no attempt to vote.
All of this was a remaining part of the so-called Black Codes that had been adopted
by most of the southern states after Reconstruction for the purpose of almost re-enslaving
blacks. Blacks responded quite well despite the low economy of black people. You had
large numbers of blacks who were willing to pay that poll tax for the purpose of voting.
They cherished the privilege of voting. It is amazing to contrast the apathy you find
about voting today, especially among blacks, as it related to those people back there
twenty-five or thirty years ago when they had difficult times getting registered to
vote. Yes, we were qualified voters, but the Democratic primary was off limits to
black people, they could not vote in the Democratic primary because that was the controlling
political party in the state of Alabama and in all of the southern states and getting
nominated in the Democratic primary, to use the vernacular of the streets, you had
it made. The November election was just a formality.

Dr. McLaurin: What happened after you were denied the right to vote in the May primary?

Mr. Leflore: There were twelve of us I think who had been selected to go our office, the NAACP
office, which was then located in what was Dr. Thompson's building at 8 North Warren
Street. Dr. Gaines Thompson's father was there at that time and our office was located
in that building and we worked all evening on those affidavits, preparing them and
then getting them notarized and sent them in to Thurgood Marshall for him to immediately
submit them to the Attorney General of the United States who at that time was the
Honorable Francis Biddle. That was done. When those affidavits were filed with Mr.
Biddle, he assured the NAACP and us, that there would be criminal proceedings instituted
against Mr. Gessner McCorvey of Mobile who was then chairman of the State Democratic
Executive Committee and the entire committee. Mr. McCorvey was regarded as a Dixiecrat
as they called them, one who apparently had very strong prejudices against blacks
or he had at least expressed himself in his actions as having very strong prejudices
against blacks. It happened that in the interim between [19]44 and '46, Mr. Roosevelt
died as president of the United States and Mr. Truman came in as president. And with
Mr. Truman a new Attorney General of the United States came in, the Honorable Tom
Clark. Mr. Clark being a Texan, a southerner himself, took this particular case unto
consideration and gave the Democratic Party of Alabama a chance to correct the injustices
itself. The Democratic Party was told that some action would have to be taken quite
promptly. On January 12, 1946, Mr. Gessner McCorvey had the Democratic State Executive
Committee to meet in Montgomery and declare that all racial barriers against blacks
would be dropped by the Democratic Party of Alabama.

Dr. McLaurin: Do you recall if you voted in the elections of the fall of 1946 or in the primary
elections of 1946 in the spring? That would have been congressional elections at least.
Nineteen-forty-six was not a presidential year but I don't recall if you had a senatorial
candidate running or gubernatorial candidate, I can check this, but do you recall
if you voted in '46 or if you attempted to vote in '46 and were denied the right to
vote?

Mr. Leflore: Subsequent to the dropping of the bars against black voting in January of 1946, we
voted in the Democratic primaries. But what happened is that a new method for denying
blacks the vote was schemed, and this was when the Boswell Amendment appeared upon
the scene about 1947 or 1948. That was a method that was also used to keep blacks
from voting.

Dr. McLaurin: Mr. Leflore, I'd like to ask you now if you feel the return of veterans in 1945,
'46 and '47 had anything whatsoever to do with the somewhat more militant stance on
the part of the NAACP on things like education, voter registration and so forth? Do
you believe there was any desire on the part of returning blacks who had served their
country in the Second World War to see such programs and did you feel any need to
implement such programs because of the expressed goals that we were fighting for in
the Second World War?

Mr. Leflore: Dr. McLaurin, we felt that black men who had gone out to fight, bleed, and die for
their country were entitled to a better deal than this country had prepared for them
on their return. As an example right here in Mobile, when the men came back from World
War II, they were restricted in training opportunities to a cooking and baking school.
And all of the black veterans who wished to take any kind of course at all had to
take cooking and baking.

Dr. McLaurin: Was this in the public school system, sort of an adult education program?

Mr. Leflore: No, this was a separate school set up for that particular purpose. It was condoned
by the federal authorities. This school was located at Davis Avenue and Cuba Street.

Dr. McLaurin: And this was run as a federal project rather than a local project?

Mr. Leflore: It was run as a local project but primarily funded by federal monies. I don't know
as to whether you could say it was run as a federal project or not because it was
set up as some of the veteran schools are set up around here now. For instance, we
know of some business schools that accept veterans but at this time this was exclusively
for veterans. Let’s say it was set up as a federal project for black veterans. On
the other hand, white veterans who returned home had training for numerous skills
available to them, that would fit them into the nation's scheme of industry or business.
We certainly fought against the sort of things that black veterans had to suffer.
Another very unsatisfactory factor was that the Mobile County Civil Service examinations
were not opened to black people. There were three veterans who had just come back
from the war whose cases we were able to offer. All three of these men are pretty
widely known in the city of Mobile. We were attempting to get the civil service barriers
broken down in Mobile County and offered Prichard councilman and NAACP president John
Langan, and the gentleman who is [on] the Mobile Housing Board and who is vice-principle
of the public schools, John Gray, and a Mr. Murphy. I have forgotten Mr. Murphy's
full name, but they were the three that we offered as plaintiffs in a suit that we
filed in an effort to open up civil service examinations to black people.

Dr. McLaurin: Do you recall the year in which that suit was filed, Mr. Leflore?

Mr. Leflore: I think the suit was filed, Dr. McLaurin, in 1949..'48 or '49. And the Federal District
Court here threw it out on what we thought was a most questionable technicality.

Dr. McLaurin: Would you recall the name of the case?

Mr. Leflore: I don't recall how it was styled. I don't know whether it was styled in Langan's
name or Gray's name or Murphy's name v. the Mobile County Personnel Board.

Dr. McLaurin: Okay, well thank you very much, Mr. Leflore, for participating in this interview.....One
other thing, Mr. Leflore. The suit that was filed against the Boswell Amendment, could
you comment on how that suit came to be introduced by the veterans group (it was filed
by a veterans group and not the NAACP but I understand the NAACP had contemplated
filing such a suit, and I believe you have the names of one of the individuals who
filed that suit)? It would have been 1948 I think. Mr. Leflore: There were five plaintiffs in this particular action that was filed through
the Voters and Veterans League of Mobile County that was headed by Mr. J.J. Thomas.
One of the plaintiffs that we know who is still living, and I suspect there may be
two or three others, is Mrs. Ethel King Carter. Mrs. Carter is still living. We just
talked to her today about the Boswell Amendment action of which she was a part. The
Boswell Amendment, after we were able to get the bars removed which denied blacks
the right to participate in the Alabama Democratic Primary, the white supremacist
political element in the state, which was the ruling element, schemed the Boswell
Amendment. The Boswell Amendment was a very iniquitous effort to deprive blacks of
voting with very rigid educational requirements and with the results being left to
the discretion of the Board of Registrars. The Boswell Amendment was declared unconstitutional
I believe in 1948 by the District Court here with Judge McDuffie presiding. And immediately
thereafter blacks began to go down in large numbers between two and three hundred
at the time to try to register to vote. The Board of Registrars adopted a quarter
system for blacks (a man by the name of Milton Schnell was the chairman of the board),
and he would accept only fourteen blacks a day and leave hundreds [of others] standing
in line. Some of the ladies became hysterical and cried because of the rather ruthless
system this man employed to keep blacks from getting registered to vote.

Dr. McLaurin: Now this was after the Boswell Amendment had been declared unconstitutional?

Mr. Leflore: Yes, this was another of the very determined processes being used to keep black people
from becoming qualified voters. We had to go to the Department of Justice against
this man, and the Department of Justice wasn't as effective as it should have been
unless the FBI did not give a true picture of what was existing in Alabama at that
time. But we did get some relief through the Department of Justice.

Dr. McLaurin: Okay, again, thank you very much Mr. Leflore. And this ends the taping of October
9, 1972.