I've read every thread i can about research but i didn't see anything about a limit to the total.

It appears that in Scen. 2 Japan has 79 factories researching aircraft. If the best research techniques involve using 6 factories at 30 a/c each it would seem possible to hastily research 13 or 14 a/c types at 180 or so each. But that might take over 200,000 supply points to repair the factories. What's a realistic limit to research?

You should check out my Japanese Production primer for the details on R&D. The only realistic way for Japan to accelerate AC is to 'daisy chain' models Zero 3a to Zero M5, etc. R&D is in the last section http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

Also you REALLY have no where near the HI for doing what you suggest as Japan's econemy is much stronger in Scenerio 2, especially the Pilot pool. This will use up a LOT of HI. Not to mention wanting to use HI to accelerate CVs.

It can take up to a year for R&D factories to fully repair. And only fully repaired R&D factories provide R&D 'points' toward acceleration. As Mike pointed out, the repair rate for R&D is NOT 1/month for AC like engines or production. Any AC with an over two years availability from the current game date has an extremely low chance of repair. Even R&D factories withing 1-2 months of availability will still not repair at 1/month, but will still repair faster than ones further out.

I've read every thread i can about research but i didn't see anything about a limit to the total.

It appears that in Scen. 2 Japan has 79 factories researching aircraft. If the best research techniques involve using 6 factories at 30 a/c each it would seem possible to hastily research 13 or 14 a/c types at 180 or so each. But that might take over 200,000 supply points to repair the factories. What's a realistic limit to research?

I accelerate all of these airframes you've listed here (plus the Jills) in some capacity or the other. Numydar is right about 'daisy chaining' research on earlier models. Also, don't forget the importance of accelerating the appropriate engine production. Once you get >500 in the pool, that will effectively double your research in that line. It's a pretty sweet bonus.

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

Well, it's difficult to get the >500 engine research bonus in ALL engine types-and probably not necessary. You should be able to target your most prolific fighter engine type (e.g., the Ha-35 for the A6 lineage) to get that above 500 too. Note in scenario 2, that the Tojo, Oscar and Zeroes use the Ha-35 lines. That's a fine candidate for maximum engine production that also benefits the research of all Ha-35 lineages too.

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

Well, it's difficult to get the >500 engine research bonus in ALL engine types-and probably not necessary. You should be able to target your most prolific fighter engine type (e.g., the Ha-35 for the A6 lineage) to get that above 500 too. Note in scenario 2, that the Tojo, Oscar and Zeroes use the Ha-35 lines. That's a fine candidate for maximum engine production that also benefits the research of all Ha-35 lineages too.

I find Scenario 2 to be ridiculously easier to achieve an R&D bonus in than Scenario 1. You have so many extra planes and groups in Scenario 2 to start with that even if you don't use half of what you're given you'll still steamroll the Allies for the first few months. Limit production from the start of the game (with almost no adverse consequences) and you'll get the engine bonus on anything you want. Cannonfodder will probably read this (alas!), but in our PBEM Japan got the bonus for Nakajima 35's within the first 45 days of the game. The Mit 32 bonus came on line the following month. If it's possible to get both of these bonuses within the first 60 days of play without a ton of manipulation, there's really not much mystery to it.

That is what I love about the forum here, people share things you never thought of lol.

Thanks Quixote for your thoughts. I not once thought about NOT filling up all my Squadrons with the latest planes in order to keep 500 engines in the pool . I wanted all my squadrons to have the best planes as soon as they could and only until much later in the game did I realize I was not using them all anyway . So it would have been much better to allow my engine pools build up first like you suggest versus what I did. This is now on my 'things to do' for the next time

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo. Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent: A6M5 Helen IIa/IIb Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start) Jill

Nice to have: Jack Oscar-IV Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule: B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway) G4M2 and beyond Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON. After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo. Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent: A6M5 Helen IIa/IIb Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start) Jill

Nice to have: Jack Oscar-IV Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule: B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway) G4M2 and beyond Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON. After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

I will add to must have category Ki-67(T) Peggy .I will commits some decent numbers of factories to that. A7M2 Sam. Best Japanese navy late war fighter in war. Fast, CV capable, SR2 Also Ki-49IIb no need to accelerate. Only gives some defensive fire with minimal impact to plane survivability against enemy CAP.

Also remember that if You plan to build some secondary models later in war You actually can commit one or two R&D factories to that plane. You have chance to accelerate that plane by month or more and when plane become available You will already have repaired factory.

Another thing engine bonus is nice as it double R&D points when You have over 500 engines in pool. But nothing is for free. For every extra point from bonus one engine is consumed

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo. Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent: A6M5 Helen IIa/IIb Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start) Jill

Nice to have: Jack Oscar-IV Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule: B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway) G4M2 and beyond Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON. After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

Imho the P1Y1 is a MUST have plane. It used the Ha-45 engine (easy to get it above 500). it's fast and armoured and it's ages Beyond the Betty or the Nell in performances. I'd heavily R&D it.

The J2M is also a must have. You need the J2M line ASAP... consider that the J2M5 is the only 3rd generation fighter that uses the Ha-32 engine...

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo. Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent: A6M5 Helen IIa/IIb Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start) Jill

Nice to have: Jack Oscar-IV Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule: B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway) G4M2 and beyond Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON. After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

Imho the P1Y1 is a MUST have plane. It used the Ha-45 engine (easy to get it above 500). it's fast and armoured and it's ages Beyond the Betty or the Nell in performances. I'd heavily R&D it.

The J2M is also a must have. You need the J2M line ASAP... consider that the J2M5 is the only 3rd generation fighter that uses the Ha-32 engine...

I was trying to make the point that must-have and must-R&D are not the same thing. I think a lot of models you can just wait for the availability date. Having an R&D factory for the model does allow you to have a fully repaired factory on Day 1 of production, though.

I'm not sold on needing the Jack early, but I'm willing to make the IJAAF do most of the CAP duties. You are correct about the Ha-32 point, which is a good one as you'll no longer be producing Netties much/at all by then...

Just a caveat here to the OP: watch your supply expenditure. If you read several IJ AAR's right now that are in the '44 timeframe, they are desparately short of supply.

You have to watch your economic expansion and be sure you can afford it. This varies scenario to scenario, mod to mod. You have to be sure which ever you play, that your economic plan will work within it. Overexpand and you can (and will) crash your economy before '45. The allies will win without ever having to try as your LCU's will fold without supply.

My R&D and production system is based mostly on strategic and operative values, with tactical considerations left to third place in importance. This means that plane types engines and service rating and time you get use from plane type (before being obselete or replaced with superior model) are more important to me than actual numerical values of type itself (which are not ignored, of course).

I have noticed that predictions or plans extending after 6/43 will usually fall appart, so I leave planning to 43 only. R&D is concentrated to few models, which I concider vital (mainly bombers and fighters). Not all of these go to production, like Ki-61 or B6N1 and there are a lot of models that go into production, but aren't researched at all (why preform R&D for a transport?). I also don't think Japanese player will lose the war, if he gets H8K2 2-4 months later, thus recons, float-planes and patrols can use older models until the "natural" arrival date. Only D4Y1-C is close of being an expection, but need to R&D the engine and then over build it to get 500 pool has dropped that one from my R&D plan.

Kami models are researched (D4Y4 and Ki-115 are in plan) as Kamikaze is fearsome weapon for Japanese player and should NOT be preformed in some plane found in "the corner of the pool". Proper models for that job are the ones with 800kg bomb and decent pool numbers of those are in my mind essential by 1944.

Especially in Scen 2 the R&D numbers for the models are large and essential planes will arrive quickly. After the "1st Stage", end of 1943, every important bomber and fighter will be in service and R&D is freed to either go into production or start "super-plane" projects for the end-game, like Ki-74-I, Ki-94-II, S1A1 and such. This Last Stage R&D has little value for the game as whole, but might produce few surprises for the opponent (Ki-74 especially has some awesome possibilities built into it).

Some notes; Production wise I divide the game into stage 1 and stage 2. Offence and defence. Offence production discards the Interceptor (defensive fighter) in favor of Air Superiority Fighter plane (Ki-43 vs. Ki-44). Stage two switches the roles (Ki-100 vs. Ki-43) and also drops the bomber production in favour of fighters.

ORIGINAL: Quixote Cannonfodder will probably read this (alas!), but in our PBEM Japan got the bonus for Nakajima 35's within the first 45 days of the game. The Mit 32 bonus came on line the following month. If it's possible to get both of these bonuses within the first 60 days of play without a ton of manipulation, there's really not much mystery to it.

Two words... Nuclear Weapons

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder "It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.” ¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

My R&D and production system is based mostly on strategic and operative values, with tactical considerations left to third place in importance. This means that plane types engines and service rating and time you get use from plane type (before being obselete or replaced with superior model) are more important to me than actual numerical values of type itself (which are not ignored, of course).

I have noticed that predictions or plans extending after 6/43 will usually fall appart, so I leave planning to 43 only. R&D is concentrated to few models, which I concider vital (mainly bombers and fighters). Not all of these go to production, like Ki-61 or B6N1 and there are a lot of models that go into production, but aren't researched at all (why preform R&D for a transport?). I also don't think Japanese player will lose the war, if he gets H8K2 2-4 months later, thus recons, float-planes and patrols can use older models until the "natural" arrival date. Only D4Y1-C is close of being an expection, but need to R&D the engine and then over build it to get 500 pool has dropped that one from my R&D plan.

Kami models are researched (D4Y4 and Ki-115 are in plan) as Kamikaze is fearsome weapon for Japanese player and should NOT be preformed in some plane found in "the corner of the pool". Proper models for that job are the ones with 800kg bomb and decent pool numbers of those are in my mind essential by 1944.

Especially in Scen 2 the R&D numbers for the models are large and essential planes will arrive quickly. After the "1st Stage", end of 1943, every important bomber and fighter will be in service and R&D is freed to either go into production or start "super-plane" projects for the end-game, like Ki-74-I, Ki-94-II, S1A1 and such. This Last Stage R&D has little value for the game as whole, but might produce few surprises for the opponent (Ki-74 especially has some awesome possibilities built into it).

Some notes; Production wise I divide the game into stage 1 and stage 2. Offence and defence. Offence production discards the Interceptor (defensive fighter) in favor of Air Superiority Fighter plane (Ki-43 vs. Ki-44). Stage two switches the roles (Ki-100 vs. Ki-43) and also drops the bomber production in favour of fighters.

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

I have to disagree about B6N2a. It is worth reserching.

On pure logistical side it goes like this; Presuming, that B6N2a arrives around January 1944 (12/43-3/44) and you upgrade your TB production (realistically around 30-50 planes/mo) immediately to new model and start to upgrading your flying units right away (around 25-30 squadrons, averaging something like 15 A/C per unit = around 400 aircraft) you will be close to done upgrading your units when the radar goes active. All this is free of any supply/HI costs and provided that you built a normal combat loss pool of B6N2 model, you never run short of planes. Thus, when 9/44 turns into 10/44, every frontline squardon is suddenly radar equipped.

Drawback is that you keep few R&D factories tied up, but you will have several others free around same time, so this is not something Japanese needs to worry about, in my opinion.

About Kamis... My personal opinion is that fighters should be used as escort, not kamis when possible. Even if flying with completely green pilots, in obselete crates that are hacked from the sky by Hellcats and Corsairs at will, it is still worth doing as they tie the CAP up for those few minutes they take to die. Buying time and reducing CAP numbers (at least few will run low with ammo) while the kamis with decent bomb load (medium bombers, D4Y4s, Tobedo bombers, Ki-115s) head towards their targets.

Also, I got the idea somewhere that plane's durability affected the Kami damage? Was I wrong?

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

I have to disagree about B6N2a. It is worth reserching.

On pure logistical side it goes like this; Presuming, that B6N2a arrives around January 1944 (12/43-3/44) and you upgrade your TB production (realistically around 30-50 planes/mo) immediately to new model and start to upgrading your flying units right away (around 25-30 squadrons, averaging something like 15 A/C per unit = around 400 aircraft) you will be close to done upgrading your units when the radar goes active. All this is free of any supply/HI costs and provided that you built a normal combat loss pool of B6N2 model, you never run short of planes. Thus, when 9/44 turns into 10/44, every frontline squardon is suddenly radar equipped.

Drawback is that you keep few R&D factories tied up, but you will have several others free around same time, so this is not something Japanese needs to worry about, in my opinion.

About Kamis... My personal opinion is that fighters should be used as escort, not kamis when possible. Even if flying with completely green pilots, in obselete crates that are hacked from the sky by Hellcats and Corsairs at will, it is still worth doing as they tie the CAP up for those few minutes they take to die. Buying time and reducing CAP numbers (at least few will run low with ammo) while the kamis with decent bomb load (medium bombers, D4Y4s, Tobedo bombers, Ki-115s) head towards their targets.

Also, I got the idea somewhere that plane's durability affected the Kami damage? Was I wrong?

Edit;typos.

I admit that I'm somewhat in the dark on kamis. I only know, so far, that speed and payload are important for getting through CAP faster and making bigger booms. When I get to '44 in one of my PBEMs...I'll find out what they're really all about, I'm sure.

It is true what you say about having as many units already equipped with the B6N2a when the radar comes online, but you put it into words better than I could yesterday (which is part of why I left it out of my post). The other part is that I rate having the factories working on other things to be higher. I think I would rather put more research into the Grace, for example.

more accurate would be to make the B6N Jill (Tenzan) available earlier but give it a service rating of 5 (engine unreliability was a major reason why it was not made, even though IJN was anticipating it to be ready (hence why B5N Kate (Kankoh) was being run at 0 per month historically on Dec 7 1941

IJN admirals were like.. "any day now nakajima.. fix those engines.. any day now.."

so they can be used for one sortie.. then they are stuck on the carriers

would be nice if those "sour apples" were also available for production

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder "It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.” ¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

Cannonfodder, have you ever seen him post ON topic anywhere, except the usual confused stereotypes? It does not make sense to argue with him because he is not interested in what the majority would percieve as a discussion, and he will simply take this post and copy/paste it in the next best thread remotely touching the topic of (Japanese) aircraft.

IMHO he is a troll, but he is too harmless for a mod to react, and actually he never really insulted anybody on the forums although he often has been insulted by others.

just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

pls just don't answer him, that might just invite him to keep on posting...

just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

Yep. And historically a number of F4F learned about the betty's rear 20mm the hard way.

Definitely japanese rear gunners are less effective than historical, though increasing rear gunners effectiveness overall would make the allied 4E defensive fire even more overpowered

interesting experimental note with the editor, i once made a modified Ki-45 Nick (Toryu) with the rear gunner whipping around a handheld 20mm Type-99-1 - result: plenty of attacking fighters damaged but none destroyed in the animation, though probably lead to many ops losses

(edit, this was after increasing the effect/pen value of full size 20mm (like type-99 and hispano)to 5/3 and mini 20mm (like Shvak and Ho-5) remaining at 4/3 - in the same mod, .50 browning was 2/2, Ho-103 was 3/1, and all 7.7mm were 1/1 - standardized range for all AC armament at 500m, making the browning hit more often but less hard, and making the Ho-103 do well against soft-skinned AC but poorly against armor) - also used a standardized accuracy formula based on muzzle velocity and ammo capacity

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

pls just don't answer him, that might just invite him to keep on posting...