So the 2012 "issue" has been brought to my attention again. This time I was informed of a planet called Nibiru or Planet X, which is on a very long, elliptical orbit and will collide with Earth, or at least enter the inner solar system - possibly in 2012, but maybe before.

I am posting this here first of all so that if anyone else looks for that information, it is easier to find out the truth.

This nice page on the NASA site attempts to clear up the hoax and provides additional information as well.All those people spreading fear do so in order to make money, ok?You swallow the pill they give you and waste your precious time worrying.

So don't!The planet Nibiru doesn't even exist!

Wikipedia wrote:The idea was first proposed in 1995 by Nancy Lieder, founder of the website ZetaTalk. Lieder describes herself as a contactee with the ability to receive messages from extra-terrestrials from the Zeta Reticuli star system through an implant in her brain. She states that she was chosen to warn mankind that the object would sweep through the solar system in May 2003, later revised to around 2010, causing a pole shift that would destroy most of humanity. The predicted collision has subsequently spread beyond Lieder's website and has been embraced by numerous internet doomsday groups, most of which link the event to the 2012 phenomenon.

So... some people spread fear in order to make money, sell their books, DVDs, or simply have the most hits on YouTube (!).That is not good.But - why does anyone buy it? (Seriously, I would like to hear opinions, or theories on the "why" people so readily accept these stories)

I ran a really quick search for 2012 Nibiru on Google and the NASA page was the first result, closely followed by a "Comprehensive Guide To What You Need Know To Survive The Coming Planet Crosser".........Another result on the same search page is from discovery.com and David Morrison writes:

As a scientist, I'm both fascinated and astonished by the deluge of questions from people who are genuinely frightened and, apparently, unable to distinguish astronomical fact from fiction. They're watching YouTube videos and visiting slick Web sites with nothing in their skeptical toolkit, or to quote Carl Sagan no "baloney detector." Now a blockbuster disaster film called "2012" is set for release in the summer of 2009, and the commercial enterprise is clearly trying to cash in on people's concern (perhaps contributing to their fear as well).

Someone else is going to watch the mentioned movie ("2012"), in which a giant wave wipes across Earth, say they are not affected by the movie, then go meditate, or go to sleep, or enter some other unconscious or semi-conscious state, see the wave in this state and claim that to be evidence of something that is actually going to happen.

Let's all be free thinkers, please!Let's use our brains daily and frequently.

Well, to me it seems to be cases of appeal to popular belief or argument from authority. You don't need many nutcases to spread something like this, it has happened before, it will happen again.

Could it be that some people are just really bored by the way things on Earth are? When the sunshine, wind, water, movement of grass and the simple beauty of let's say, flowers is not enough, what do you wish for? Maybe a giant planet colliding into our planet?

I understand, kinda, the Christian argument for the appocalypse, like, is there a better way to get power than, basically, providing people "free" places in heaven? Yeah, just tell them the world is going to end soon, tell them Queen Mary is weeping, tell them about a cross carved into the ground, that when disappears, the world will end... No, I'm not making this up. My grandmother was a big fan of these things, so when the cross finally disappeared, she said: "Soon, soon..."

Yeah, but how soon, really?

I think this could be a simmilar hoax, after all, that woman could claim she and only she has, like, six hundred and sixty... seven tickets for a magical plane, masked as a giant pancake, that in fact is the Flying Spagghetti Monster (ever heard of His Noodliness?), that will take humans away before the great disaster, but first they have to donate an eye and maybe a few bucks?

I don't think it's the boredom that drives people to fall for these scams.

As for the religious argument, I am probably not the right person to comment. I thought about it and I realize that I have never ever personally met and talked to a fundamentally religious person - and I have lived in 3 different countries so far, all in Europe. That is also why I don't have any problems with religion in general, but only with a lack of tolerance from those who claim to be religious. Anyone who is religious, has their beliefs, but doesn't harm anyone else nor impose their beliefs on anyone else... I've never seen any real harm done.Your story of your grandmother, I could actually picture her, kind of with one hand in the air, gently waving in back and forth and she says "Soon, soon..." :)

The Flying Spaghetti Monster was new to me... it is a funny idea. Mocking human misuse of anything makes sense, even though "mocking" as a technique is not very emotionally intelligent and for the most part highly unproductive. In that sense, this website and idea only for those who would already understand the joke.

I believe the key to the removal of ignorance is knowledge, along with a thirst for knowledge, a curiosity to learn and find things out for yourself.Why some people are neither thirsty nor curious I do not know.Why some others who in general are thirsty and curious and free thinkers and fun people, but occasionally still fall for the schemes... I do not know that either.

I think I have spent enough time with my fundamentalist grandmother to make some conclusions. First of all, I think these worldviews are dangerous. And I mean even those who don't walk around shouting their beliefs for the world to hear. These people are voters, these people are the reason why religion has such a big word in the happenings in certain countries. More than sixty per cent of the slovak citizens claim to be christians, atheism is sort of old fashioned nowadays, it is more endangered than catholicism was during the communism.

Other than that, it promotes dogmas, unqestionable truths, that universally make one doubt scientists, doctors, philosophers etc. It basically tells you to build a brick around your thoughts, so that you never let anything else in and out. As my quote says, thought is probably the biggest and most effective weapon in the world; by putting your own thoughts into someone elses head you practically get them do what you want. I consider this highly dangerous.

It is true that the church of FSM is slightly counterproductive, but it shows in a great way how silly, unsubstantiated beliefs can be created.

Oh, thirst for knowledge reminds me... I've talked to this girl yesterday, her father is our social studies teacher at school. I told her I thought her dad was really cool, I love listening to him (on philosophy classes) and said if he was my dad I'd spend hours talking to him about this stuff. She said she hates it, like, who needs all that bull...poo about the world, god and whatnot? So I say (trying to stay calm and not to yell at her), that these things are incredibly important, on a bigger scale, they affect our lives and well, the whole world. She's like, with a smile on her face: "Are you an atheist?" So I say yeah, are you a believer? She says yeah, I was baptized, duh.

So what? I was batpized too, I had first communion and all that crap, but so what? Does it mean I have to conveniently sit back and feed on everything a priest tells me? She's a smart girl, yet she is so damn blind. Her beliefs prevent her from thinking, her opinions are easily shakable, any politician could come up and convert her to anything right then and there.

Metatron wrote:First of all, I think these worldviews are dangerous. And I mean even those who don't walk around shouting their beliefs for the world to hear. These people are voters, these people are the reason why religion has such a big word in the happenings in certain countries. More than sixty per cent of the slovak citizens claim to be christians, atheism is sort of old fashioned nowadays, it is more endangered than catholicism was during the communism.

Other than that, it promotes dogmas, unqestionable truths, that universally make one doubt scientists, doctors, philosophers etc. It basically tells you to build a brick around your thoughts, so that you never let anything else in and out. As my quote says, thought is probably the biggest and most effective weapon in the world; by putting your own thoughts into someone elses head you practically get them do what you want. I consider this highly dangerous.

My problem with replying to the statement above is that you are right. However, not allowing other people to have their beliefs, however they seem to someone else, is even more dangerous. It is one of the basic freedoms in life, to choose your belief, your way of life, your this and that, and I don't think something that important may ever be forbidden.In your description you talk of people who doubt scientists, doctors, philosophers etc.What if they didn't doubt them, but acknowledged them and still chose to stay with their own belief?

Basically, my question is, under which circumstances would you be ok with (hence accept) religious people? Any?

In regards to your story about the girl.... That could also have to do with teenage rebellion, and as stupid as it sounds, teenagers sometimes rebel against something that is good for them as well. You think I am a great mum and that my children are lucky to have me, but do my children see it that way? Do they like me questioning authority, questioning their teachers and their ways, me questioning pretty much every aspect of life, and me doing so only to provoke thought... To make them use their brain and not accept anything "as it is served".Do you think my teenage daughter likes that?

Metatron wrote:...More than sixty per cent of the slovak citizens claim to be christians, atheism is sort of old fashioned nowadays, it is more endangered than catholicism was during the communism. ...

How is this not dangerous?

Lack of tolerance is the most dangerous thing, never mind from whom it comes. Just a thought that the other is bad because of not thinking my way is a very wrong thought that leads to many other truly dangerous things.There is a good proverb:” I would let him go, but he doesn’t let me go"So, what one can do if his way of being is not tolerated although he doesnt do any thing that endangeres anybody? This topic comes very close to the topic about Freedom. What does it mean to be free minded at all if you are then endangered by the mass logic and the way of thinking around you that does not accept differences?

Come one George, that letter is not the answer to everything. You have mentioned it enough times, we know you like it. A personal insight, examples from your life, what bothers you in particular, or how you think things could be changed for the better would be a more productive contribution, don't you think?

"Aside from that Mrs Lincoln how was the play." What is most significant about that letter is it describes my personal experience. It is hard for me to accept such a concept as the end of the world in 2012 and the returning of the invisible guy in the sky. Yet, my wifes friends fervently believe just that....... if not 2012, SOON!

How otherwise rational, functional loving people can buy into such ludicrous nonsense is simply astounding to me and every time I read that book or listen to Sam, I see the real and scary possibility that these maniacs will make their vision of the end of the world a reality. That they become so impassioned by their fantasy, they become blinded to the divisive hate, anger and violence it results in.

It truly scares me and makes me despair for humanity and the future my children will see. Sam Harris describes that so well, is the reason I often mention his name. Have you read the book? What do you think.

ps..... two farms over from where my daughter takes her horse back riding lessons, a couple has sold or disposed of all their belongings and wait for the "wonderful day". If you have not met people have their ilk, you don't truly understand the primitive insanity it brings to the world.

Sabina wrote:Basically, my question is, under which circumstances would you be ok with (hence accept) religious people? Any?

Not really. I mean, religion is not a neccessary part of the world. Politics and science are. Mostly because they give you options and even though they affect your lives directly just as religion does, these are essential if we want an organized world. And most of all, they don't encourage you to make irrational actions in the name of a deity.

True, politicians do that too, but as I've said, politics are neccessary.

Do you think my teenage daughter likes that?

Fair enough, not everyone does, some people consciously chose to live in a dreamworld, turn a blind eye towards all the bad stuff that's happening. Maybe that's even better in some cases. Not my cup of tea, though.

Mirjana wrote:Lack of tolerance is the most dangerous thing, never mind from whom it comes.

I'd agree with that, partially. After all, certain beliefs directly cause negative outcomes, take racism for example.We deffinitely can't be tollerant of that and it's still a belief.

What does it mean to be free minded at all if you are then endangered by the mass logic and the way of thinking around you that does not accept differences?

It's true that we're endangered by mass logic, but after all, if there weren't such "mass logics", free minded thinking wouldn't exist, so to speak. As Pytagoras said, for example, the world is mostly built on opposites. You can't know what it feels like to be happy, if you don't know sadness first. Same goes for free thinking. There has to be something that tries to limit you, so that you know when your thinking is free.

I think free mindedness is picking the best bits of different worldviews, that at the same time are in harmony with morality.

GenerousGeorge wrote:If you have not met people have their ilk, you don't truly understand the primitive insanity it brings to the world.

I agree, it's scary what misinterpreted ideologies can cause. As I've said (or maybe not on this forum), I don't havea problem with Christianity as an ideology, but thing is, ideologies never stay on the same level. It starts off somehow, then people take over, and from then on, especially when it comes to religious ideologies that are impossible to define, the ideology itself loses control.

I think a good example of this is in the Chronicles of Narnia, more precisely, The Last Battle (although the way Lewis promotes Christianity in this book is sometimes annoying, but aside from that, the book has a lot to say). In case you haven't read it, this book takes place a couple hundred years after Aslan's (who's basically thelion version of the Christ) last visit to Narnia. A monkey andhis donkey friend find a lion pelt in the nearby stream. The monkey makes the donkey put on the pelt, and they start to claim this is the real Aslan, as they're giving out orders. Since it's been a long time since the real Aslan last visited, nobody remembers him, and everyone falls for the trick.

I don't think this was Lewis' intention, but he just showed how otherwise great ideologies can be misused, consciously on larger and mostly uncosciously on smaller scales.