JOHN
It is very close. It’s closer than it was back in 1996,
when I became Prime Minister. I felt we’d gone through a
bit of a period in which both sides had taken it for
granted, and we’d each got a bit lazy about the
relationship. And I always thought that wonderful expression
of Dr Johnson’s about keeping one’s friendships in good
repair applied to Australia and New
Zealand.

SUSAN
You said last year at the Oxford Union that many Australians
are condescending to New
Zealanders.

JOHN
Yes, some of them are.
Yes.

SUSAN
In what
way?

JOHN
Well, they just
are.

SUSAN
Just think we’re too small to bother
with?

JOHN
It is a little bit of that, but it’s changed and I tried
in my own small way as Prime Minister of Australia to
accelerate the process of that
change.

SUSAN
You did also, in 2001, change the way New Zealanders are
treated there, and there are now some New Zealanders, a
decade and a bit later, who are pretty much an underclass
– second-class citizens, the way they’re treated in
Australia. Is that what you
intended?

JOHN
Oh, I never intended to create a situation where people felt
second-class in the country in which they were living, but
there were justifiable reasons, from Australia’s point of
view at the time, to make that change, and as to whether
there should be changes made now – well, I’ll leave that
to the current leaders of the two
countries.

SUSAN
No student loans, no access to student allowances. We’re
talking people who may have lived in the country and paid
taxes for many years. No unemployment, no sickness
benefit. Up to 150,000 Kiwis in that boat. Does that sit
comfortably with
you?

JOHN
But can I say that, you know, addressing that issue now and
the figures that you're quoting are today’s figures. That
really is a matter for the current Prime Minister of
Australia…

SUSAN
But do you
think—?

JOHN
…and the current Prime Minister of New
Zealand.

SUSAN
So you think you did the right thing,
then?

JOHN
I think what was done then, given the responsibilities that
we had to people in Australia and the Australian population,
I thought the decisions that were taken were fair, and there
was an understanding reached between the two governments at
the time. I don’t think I was seen as an Australian Prime
Minister who was in any way unfriendly or unsympathetic to
New Zealand. I’d have though quite the
reverse.

SUSAN
What I’m asking you though – do you think it’s fair
now, with 2013
eyes?

JOHN
I think
what…

SUSAN
But you were the
architect?

JOHN
I think what is judged as fair now is in the remit of the
current leaders of the two
countries.

SUSAN
But I’m asking you as the architect of the
legislation.

JOHN
I know you are, and I’m giving you the answer that I’m
giving
you.

SUSAN
Well, you're not giving me an
answer.

JOHN
Yes, I am. You may not like it, but I am giving it to
you.

SUSAN
So would you at least acknowledge that the Bondi surfer, the
dole-bludging Bondi surfer is a
myth?

JOHN
Well, I regard it as a
myth.

SUSAN
Because Helen Clark used that language at the
time.

JOHN
I mean, they’re expressions— I mean, I never used those
expressions, to my
recollection.

SUSAN
What would you do if you were the leader now? Would you
change
it?

JOHN
Well, look, I’m not, and I’m not going to put myself in
that position, because one of the rules I’ve tried to
follow in my post-political life is not to give running
commentaries on day-to-day issues. I’ll defend the things
I did as Prime
Minister.

SUSAN
Do you have regrets over what you did as Prime
Minister?

JOHN
I don’t have any regrets about the major policy decisions
that I took. Obviously, there are some individual things
that I’d have done differently,
but—

SUSAN
Would you have apologised, for instance, for the Stolen
Generations? Would that be something you would have
done?

JOHN
No, no, I don’t have a different view on
that.

SUSAN
Do you think you owe New Zealanders an apology for what
we’re seeing as this underclass now in
Australia?

JOHN
No, I
don’t.

SUSAN
The NZIER, which is our Institute of Economic Research has
done some numbers – because as we know, a lot of people go
from New Zealand to Australia – and they are saying that
if this continues until 2025, it will cost New Zealand $30
billion in lost human capital. Australia very much on the
plus side of that ledger, isn’t it, when we’re talking
about the brain drain and taking New
Zealanders?

JOHN
Yes, but without in any way intruding into the area of
whether there should be changes now, because that’s a
matter for John Key and whoever is the Prime Minister of
Australia—

SUSAN
But you wouldn’t oppose
changes?

JOHN
Well, that is a matter— Look, if current leaders want to
make changes, then let them make them, and when I know what
they are, I’ll have a
view.

SUSAN
Why, do you believe, wages are so much higher in
Australia?

JOHN
Well, because Australia’s economy has grown more strongly
for a combination of reasons, and one of the reasons, of
course, is the resource endowments that we have, and we are
very fortunate providence has given us all that stuff and a
lot of other people want
it.

SUSAN
We are very well resourced, actually, for our size. We have
a lot of minerals, gas, oil in the ground. Do you think we
should be digging it up, monetising
it?

JOHN
Well, I think any country should sensibly use natural
resources. I don’t believe in leaving natural resources in
the ground indefinitely. I know that’s a modern view that
a lot of people have, and I think they’re wrong. And I
think any nation that’s got natural resources should use
them sensibly, and I think it’s possible. And the world is
changing in relation to the exploitation of natural
resources. The
veritable—

SUSAN
So is New Zealand sort of wasting an opportunity by not
digging up what we have in the ground, by not getting the
oil, the gas, the coal and everything
else?

JOHN
Well, I haven’t come here to give New Zealand lectures
about what to do. I’m making a general observation that
could apply with equal force with attitudes in Australia.
There are some people in Australia who don’t believe in
digging anything up. Some people in Australia think we
should phase out coal. Australia’s the largest coal
exporter in the world. I mean, that’s economic lunacy, the
idea of phasing out the export of coal from
Australia.

SUSAN
Let’s talk about the on-going difficulties with Australia,
which we have seen this week. Why, though, with this – I
mean, Labor doing their best to self-destruct – is Tony
Abbot not more
popular?

JOHN
Well, according to every single poll that’s been conducted
over the last year, if there was an election held, the
Liberal Party would win comfortably. The fact that his own
approval ratings may not be as high as some people think
they should be is quite
immaterial.

SUSAN
Is he a misogynist, as Julia Gillard tried to paint him
as?

JOHN
Absolutely no. That’s just ludicrous, desperate
nonsense.

SUSAN
She scored a bounce in the polls, though, when she said
that, didn’t
she?

JOHN
Well, I don’t think their poll position’s too good as we
talk, irrespective of whether it’s Kevin Rudd or Julia
Gillard. I don’t think it’s going to make any
difference, because they are equally culpable for the policy
difficulties the current government has. Kevin Rudd authored
the biggest policy failure of all of the current Labor
Government, and that’s the destruction of an effective
asylum-seeker policy. And the collapse of our
border-protection policy has been the biggest single policy
failure of this Labor
Government.

SUSAN
So if you had to characterise this current Labor outfit –
because there's a lot of hate behind the scenes, obviously,
and I don’t think that’s too strong a word – how would
you describe
it?

JOHN
The level of personal vitriol surprises me. It’s quite
deep. And the things that were said about Kevin Rudd last
year when the leadership ballot was held at the beginning of
2012 – I mean, they were quite extraordinary. And the
Labor Party should never have got rid of Rudd in the first
place. I’m no fan of his, but I haven’t seen anything
quite like this, and it’s all happened so quickly. But you
never know in politics, and the Liberal Party shouldn’t
get too complacent and shouldn’t assume it’s
automatically going to win. The public can sense that.
Australians are very good at sensing that. And so are
Kiwis.

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