Posted
by
Roblimo
on Wednesday January 25, 2012 @08:49AM
from the as-if-regular-Segways-weren't-dorky-enough dept.

Back in 2009 G.M. and Segway talked about the P.U.M.A., or Personal Urban Mobility and Accessibility vehicle. Now it's the EN-V, which stands for Electric Network Vehicle. G.M. (along with partner Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation) debuted the thing in Shanghai in 2010, then displayed it at the Las Vegas Consumer Electronics Show in 2011, and now they're showing it off at auto shows, no doubt hoping to get a lot of buzz going for this two-wheeled wonder, which is supposed to be so loaded with navigation and collision avoidance electronics that you can sleep in it on your way to work. (Please wake us up when we get there, okay?)

I had the sound on, but low. She mentioned a price under $10,000, otherwise people would just buy a car.

Personally, I can foresee a group of these going down the road when one in the lead hits a pothole and does the well-known segway faceplant. Collision avoidance kicks in on the following vehicles - causing them to segway faceplant and it looks like a billiard table. EN-V - corner pocket.

Though their Volt car seems like a decent idea; not sure why it isn't selling better?

Because they start at like $40 grand and a Prius is $23k. That's a LOT of gas - even the guy at work who has already has solar cells and was going to charge it for "free" couldn't justify the price given the current price of gas.

(We live in PA, so currently he is allowed to spin his electric meter backwards with the solar cells - that is why "free" is in quotes... it would actually cost him the going rate of electricity.)

So now we can spend money on stupid stuff (like segway clones) that were already proven failures by other companies (Segway).

Segway was a failure because it's too goddamned expensive. Six grand? I only spent ten on my car. When the patents run out and they're a hundred bucks each, everybody will have one.

The volt isn't selling better for the same reason. A teeny little car that costs more than my full sized sedan did new, has limited range, etc? No thanks. When an electric car costs no more than a gasoline car, they too will sell well.

The 1% do not understand the 99%. Most of us don't have much money we can afford to waste on expensive toys like segways and electric cars, and those who can buy any damned thing they please can't get their heads around that.

The other problem is that the two parallel wheels thing is just pointless. There are electric scooters [nycewheels.com] that do the same thing as a Segway but are way cheaper because they put the wheels one in front of the other.

they're not pointless: they give the vehicle self-balancing capability and let it fit into the form factor a person fits in.

A Segway still has a substantially larger footprint than the rider.

you can't take a scooter onto a crowded elevator

You can take a Segway onto on an elevator, but not a crowded elevator, unless you redefine "crowded elevator" to a substantially different meaning than it would usually have when the only thing you were thinking about putting in it were people not mounted on powered vehicl

Segway was a failure because it's too goddamned expensive. Six grand? I only spent ten on my car. When the patents run out and they're a hundred bucks each, everybody will have one.

Also, many cities--including mine, San Francisco--have banned their use on sidewalks. If I could buy the original Segway for under $2,000 and take it down the sidewalk, it would be a nice way to get around in a dense city with a lot of hills.

Seriously, you believe the products like the Segway and Volt are priced wrong because "the 1% do not understand the 99%"?

I'd say that has practically nothing to do with it. What you've generally got here is the realization that our govt. leaders are pushing for environmentally "greener" solutions to energy-related issues, meaning loads of tax subsidies and loans available to those promising to design and deliver such solutions.

We saw this same thing in the Clinton administration when Bill mandated an electr

They understand that people are generally lazy, willfully ignorant, and self interested, which is 90% of what it takes to be successful. The other 10% is either adding value to society by helping people overcome their weaknesses, or else being a dick enough to use people's weaknesses against them. (Not actually mutually exclusive in some cases -- art adds value to society, but the way art is typically marketed probably does not.)

So now we can spend money on stupid stuff (like segway clones) that were already proven failures by other companies (Segway).

Segway was a failure because it's too goddamned expensive. Six grand? I only spent ten on my car. When the patents run out and they're a hundred bucks each, everybody will have one.

The volt isn't selling better for the same reason. A teeny little car that costs more than my full sized sedan did new, has limited range, etc? No thanks.

Amen. This is why the Prius was successful - back in 2004, when they released the 2nd (less dinky looking) version, it was a) the least expensive car that had smart-key tech, bluetooth and nav options and b) a really good deal despite being a hybrid.

The Prius cost has changed a bit (I priced out a newer model and was amazed by how much more expensive it is now - it's probably at price/value parity - natural considering the brand is firmly established), but the lesson is real: for mass-adoption to occur, pr

Not that far from it. I don't have numbers on the Segway, but for the e-bike I used to own (45 mile range on 1.2kWh of electricity including charger and battery losses), that's much, much less than $35/year for a full charge every day at the highest residential rate (middle of the summer, above the first 500 kWH).

Though their Volt car seems like a decent idea; not sure why it isn't selling better?

Because its a fairly new plug-in hybrid that's substantially expensive as many competing hybrids (including, now, plug-in models) from more established brands (e.g., Prius), that is marketed as an "electric car" while at the same time spending a lot of marketing effort to overcome the perception of limitations of electric cars, and that is much more expensive than competitors electric cars (e.g., the Nissan Leaf.)

If you've actually seen any of the TV ads for the Volt, they basically involve the driver/owner being harassed by confused onlookers arguing over whether it's gas or electric, with the owner sheepishly trying to explain that it's both.

They're terrible ads that leave the viewer confused. I'm sure it's not the only problem but that ain't helping.=Smidge=

If you've actually seen any of the TV ads for the Volt, they basically involve the driver/owner being harassed by confused onlookers arguing over whether it's gas or electric, with the owner sheepishly trying to explain that it's both.

They're terrible ads that leave the viewer confused. I'm sure it's not the only problem but that ain't helping.

Yeah, that's been true of the recent ads, which have (I would guess) made the problem worse: most of the earlier marketing efforts (up to at least right before launch

Segways were a complete failure because they were incredibly impractical. Their whole model was built on the idea that cities would decide to create segway lanes. The only practical use I've seen for them are cops in parks instead of riding on bikes (because cops are too fat typically nowadays to ride a bike that long anyway).

Their whole model was built on the idea that cities would decide to create segway lanes.

Their whole model was built on the idea of having a mass-market outlet to lower the production cost of the underlying technology for use in electric wheelchairs. That line about redesigning cities was Steve Job's.

I'm curious, what sort of accounting gimmicks are they using that would land anyone else in jail? From what I can tell there's not much that a major corporation, GM or otherwise, can do that will land someone in jail at the executive level.

I did a little googling and couldn't find much about accidents involving Sparrows, do you have any useful citations for that assertion?
The main barrier in my eyes to the Sparrow EV line catching on would be the price tag for a single seater. At $30,000 you could just spend twice as much and get a Tesla Model S and still have some spending money left over. Granted I'm comparing an older existing product to a prototype but the Model S even though it's easily twice the value it still appeals to a relatively

At $30,000 you could just spend twice as much and get a Tesla Model S and still have some spending money left over.

Um, do you assume that a person who would buy the Sparrow EV would be happy to spend twice as much on a totally different type of EV? And then do you think that someone who would buy the Tesla Model S would think, "damn for half as much I can get that sweet jellybean."?

The only relationship those two products have are they are electric, and they have wheels. They are not in the same price range, nor do they cater to the same customers. Tesla will not be poaching potential Sparrow owners.

Sarge: May I introduce, our new Light-Reconnaissance vehicle. (Rotating around the new jeep) It has 4-inch Armor Plating; M.A.G. Bumper Suspension; a mounted machine gunner position, and total seating for three. Gentlemen! This is the M12 LRV! I like to call it the 'Warthog'.
Simmons: Why 'Warthog,' Sir?
Sarge: Because 'M12 LRV' is too hard to say in conversation, son.
Grif: No, but, why 'Warthog'? I mean, it doesn't really look like a pig...
Sarge: Say that again?
Grif: I think it looks more like a Puma.
Sarge: What in Sam Hell is a 'Puma'?
Simmons: Uhh, you mean like the shoe company?
Grif: No, like a Puma. It's a big cat, like a lion.
Sarge: You're making that up.
Grif: I'm telling you, it's a real animal!
Sarge: Simmons, I want you to poison Grif's next meal.
Simmons: Yes sir!

If only there were some way to get a chair and desk installed in your home.. and connect via some kind of communications network to your workplace and/or colleagues to share files. Maybe some way of sending text, audio or even visual communications.. that would be cool. It would save billions of units of currency of fuel each year, not to mention commuting time.

Of course we just don't have the technology, and probably never will. Why do I torture myself with such dreams?

Oh, we have the technology. We have everything you describe...and more (btw, I get your point).

What we lack is the leadership to use it *wisely*. It makes infinite sense (to leadership) to require people to travel to a location where they can reach out and touch you, look at you, know you are there no matter what you are doing. Why at home that worker could be...maybe...reading/., because he or she would never do that at work. The office is preferred to some, the home to others. When a job is suited t

I do not think that this is compatible with physics for any speed faster than fast walking: the force from decelerating will be so strong that the vehicle will lean forward. There is no way how a human can counter this by just shifting weight (that force is ridiculously small compared to quickly braking a couple of dozen or even hundred pounds of mass down from 35mph to a stop.Even if the vehicle could look into the future and would automatically lean back as far as possible before initiating the break, the

On a Segway, you lean forward to accelerate and backwards to brake. The computer senses which way you are leaning and moves the wheels accordingly. For this vehicle, the computer has to control the center of mass, shifting it foward while accelerating and backwards while decelerating (or going in reverse). For an emergency brake, it just shifts the center of gravity really far back. Anit-lock sensors will keep the wheels from locking (which you really, REALLY wouldn't want to have happen in this thing).

Just a guess is that they have also thought of it, and are doing something to deal with it.

Unfortunately I think I know what their answer would be. They claim its network abilities make it "unable to crash", because it know where all the other traffic is. Therefore, it should never need to do an emergency break- it can just roll to a gentle halt. And seeing as it's auto-driving, you can't manually emergency break it.

So my guess is- it won't be doing any emergency breaking, ever. It will either roll to a gen

yes.. the video talks about the "never crash" idea and explains that for this reason, there is no bumper or airbag.Sounds quite naive to me... even if these vehicles only operate in totally isolated lanes where no child, dog, or damaged vehicle can ever appear and nothing can ever drop on the driveway, I am not sure if people would want to drive in them given this kind of "safety".

They were displaying a prototype of this 2 years ago at the NY Auto Show held at the Javits Center... My friend and I are standing by it, and we're trying to guess how much electronics are crammed into the thing, and my friend says "I'll bet it runs Linux"... So the booth babe next to us turns and says 'No, it runs on electricity!"

We thanked her for her insightful information, took three steps and then started laughing hysterically.

I didn't realize you were making a joke. I thought you were saying that booth babes aren't so completely tired of being hit on and flirted with all day long that they might actually have interest with some of the men at the event.

While I agree that being friendly and chatting won't ever hurt, the booth babes are doing this because they are paid to.

As for laughing "behind her back" - if you can't control your laughter, it is better to do it when out of earshot. It might have really hurt her feelings if they

And by "other people" you're talking about delusional, self-centered, narcissistic assholes? I mean seriously, put yourself in her shoes for a moment, do you really want people like *me* hitting on you?

Jeeze, I might totally be disrespecting her because she's as bright as a 40-watt, but at the same time, I'm not assuming that every woman out of my league is wanting me to hit on her.

Very much agree. I've been biking to work for the past 5 years, and I love it. Keeps me fit without having to ever step foot in a gym. First little while it seems like quite a workout, but eventually it becomes just as easy as walking, or even easier. But one correction. I think there's plenty of room for profit margins in bicycles. There's a lot of high end bikes, or bikes aimed at people who like specific styles which cost way more than just the cost of the manufacturing.

You sure about that? I'm currently shopping for a bike. Right now I have a hybrid that is a little too heavy and inefficient for my commute to work (it's 26 miles each way) so I'm looking for a replacement. I thought about getting a real road bike, but I can't touch anything decent for less than $1500 new. I have found a couple of touring bikes and a couple of cyclocross-style bikes which are probably actually a better choice for my commute, and a little bit cheaper, but only a little bit. The budget I

All this covered by characterZero's comment, but I wish to confirm that his answers are the correct ones. I rode 10 miles to work today in the clothes that I am still wearing (no lycra, no funny shoes), on a bike that has carried as many as 3 other (small) people (or a spouse), that can carry as much as 200lbs of cargo, that has also towed a bicycle and carried a passenger simultaneously. I also plan to stop by the grocery store on the way home from work; I already have a list of stuff to buy.

it was one of those devices that the tech involved was much cooler than the application. Other things that came out of this were much better, like the wheel chair that can raise it's occupant to eye level with standing adults and even climb stairs.

Imaging a fleet of these at bus/train stops for daily rental. In the US, at least, the problem with mass trasportation is getting from one stop to the rest of the destination. I tried to start a business in the Dallas area based on this. The idea is basically, a person pays a monthly subscription rental on an small shuttle electric vehicle. The company provides them with a vehicle like the EN-V at the location where they are dropped by the bus. When they are done, they simply return the vehicle to the stop, get on the bus, and go home. Ironically, the Texans that bitch all of the time about federal regulations, wouldn't let me start the business because of state requirements on vehicle size, liability insurance "path to owner" requirements, and licensing restrictions on who can run a "rental car business". If someone has the investment capital, I can guarantee the Federal incentives and tax cuts on this business alone would be worth getting into.

Cyclist are hated with a passion here in Texas. People won't hesitate to run you down. On a personal note: I'm alergic to nature, sweat, and burning fat cells. And. My fat ass hanging off a bicycle seat, regardless of clothing options, would be an offence to all humanity.

At the very end of the video she points out that this model (2nd gen) has no windshield wipers, headlamps, or climate control. But they are looking to add that stuff for the 3rd gen model so it will be "all weather". It seems to me that by the time they add all the crap to it that a normal car has, it won't be any cheaper than buying a SMART car. Sure you can spin it around and park it more easily, but with the range and speed tradeoffs it hardly seems like a good business model.

I'm confused, who is the target market for this thing? They do not have the safety features of existing cars, so they cannot be used on the roads with existing cars. The justification for not including standard safety features is that they will never crash because, when every vehicle on the road is one of these, they will talk to each other and know where all the others are. The question is how do we get from where we are, to the place where every vehicle is one of these? Of course, the government and big businesses would love this because they would be able to track your every move.

Car manufactures are already working on car to car communication (and car to roadside).

Also, if the government and big business would want to track your vehicles, they already can! We sell the tech for that. It's quite new, but it doesn't even require changes in the current infrastructure as it uses the normal induction loops in the road. It has only a 90-95% detection ratio (less when people are taking corners) but it should be enough to track your habits.We are using it to track and optimize your travel t

The justification for not including standard safety features is that they will never crash because, when every vehicle on the road is one of these, they will talk to each other and know where all the others are.

As someone else pointed out, deer, falling rocks, and icebergs tend not to be where expected. "We don't need more lifeboats, she's unsinkable!"

There's a lot of safety gained by not going fast, and by not being quite such a large target. Despite the widespread belief that bicycles are deadly-unsafe, per-hour (not per-mile) they're about the same as automobiles. One might guess that there is some frequency-of-brain-fart constant at work here.

I think the way we get there is that we start deploying the anti-crash and collision sensor stuff now in ordinary cars, and once those are widespread, then cars can get smaller.

I doubt that US, CA, UK, AU, NZ, or other Euro countries are the initial target market for the Chevy Segway.

Have you ever visited high population density cities in China or Taiwan (and Japan to a lesser extent)? If you have, you have also seen the insane scooter deathrace they call normal traffic conditions.I found this video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=P19qFzqBKGs/ [youtube.com] Now imagine it's raining. A canopy

for the vehicle of the future is this [wikipedia.org] what you are thinking of, or might it have been this one [wikipedia.org] of a more recent design?

As a side note I have an old large tiller that has the same engine as second vehicle listed and is probably from the same era. The tiller has the 12hp engine and still runs great even though it is probably 35 years old.

On 28 October 2007, the P50 was featured in a segment of the BBC motoring programme Top Gear on BBC Two, during which the presenter, Jeremy Clarkson, entered the car and drove through central London to work. Clarkson, who is 6 ft 5 in (196 cm) tall, demonstrated that it was possible, although difficult, for tall people to get into the P50. Upon arriving at the BBC, he drove past the car parks, between bollards, to the front of the building, after which he pulled the P50 behind him to his office. He then drove the P50 through the corridors of the office building, which included the background of BBC News 24 while it was on air and used a standard passenger lift (elevator) to get to a meeting, which he attended inside the P50. At the end of the meeting Clarkson drove out of the building and stated that, if the car had a reverse gear, it would be the "ultimate in personal mobility"

Had I known about that stunt I would has used it to try and convince my wife to let me get a micro car instead of my current project car. She said no to the micro cars I wanted because they were all too small (the Peel P50 and Peel Trident [wikipedia.org] were on the list as were others) but she said not. So instead I got a massively larger car [wikipedia.org].

Seemed to me that the bans were pretty reasonable. Something on the pavement that weighs a considerable amount and has a top speed of 12.5mph isn't suitable to be ridden on the pavement. At the same time a vehicle with a top speed of 12.5mph is too slow to ride on the road and causes an dangerous obstruction in a dedicated cycle lane of people riding bikes at 10-20mph.