Great discussion guys, thanks for everyones contributions to the discussion. It seems like the general outlook for C&R prices and collecting is good, at least with our little group here mostly in California. I collect, but mostly for fun and for shooters, I am definitely not a serious collector and have mostly average to cheap examples of milsurps with a few none milsurps sprinkled in. I personally hope that C&R collecting stays popular, I really enjoy the hunt.

One thing that was not mentioned in this thread that is very important is that many rifles are becoming C&R, including early Colt AR sporters. This is another curveball in the game, as rifles currently sold will have little difference to an older version of themselves. Not so much an issue in CA since it's all banned, but in other states it means lots of rifles coming to market that are exempted from background checks.

That also means that they will go up in value.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by doggie

Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG

Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.

"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

I can't claim to have my finger on the pulse of the C&R market since I only see a very narrow view of it. I don't interact with 20-somethings socially except at the shooting range so my view of them may be skewed a bit. But I see a love for and interest in milsurps. I only have a modest collection but I try to bring them out to share with others at Calgun shoots to give the younger guys and gals a chance to see and shoot this stuff.

I bring out, for example, a 1909 Argentine Mauser for people to shoot so they can get first-hand experience with it. Otherwise, how will they know how cool it is? Same thing with my Swiss K-31. A couple of young guys were on the fence about it and one didn't even know what it was. Three of them all have their own example now because they have had a chance to shoot it.

Regarding hand loading, of course there is a cost savings per round. But it is a time investment to recoup your costs. You recoup your costs very quickly if you hand load expensive ammo, and then the main thing is the time investment. But another benefit of hand loading is the ability to custom make your ammunition to your specifications. For a lot of the bolt-action milsurps I load for, I am making the ammo to give me about 90% of the power of the military load. It is more accurate than the surplus ammo, and also much more comfortable to shoot. The recoil isn't cut down to 90%, it is cut down to about 66%. That is because, to get that last 10% of power, you have to raise pressure a lot more than 10%.

Anyways, I can handle shooting full power stuff all day. But I like shooting the most accurate ammo I can make, and for novice milsurps shooters, being able to shoot a full size service rifle cartridge comfortably really helps ease them into the sport/hobby/whatever you want to call it. Nobody misses that last 10% of power when they are just shooting at 100 or 200 yards. So while it is still a time investment, there are other benefits to hand loading besides reducing cost per round.

If a bunch of old collectors sell off their collections, that may be a small boost in supply, but it will still be nowhere near what it was when there were a ton of imports. I can't see there being much left in storage overseas, the only thing that may show up is Russian SVT and SKS, but then again SVTs haven't been available in Canada for a while, and SKS seems like availability is spotty. Marstar has some Tula SKS now, but no SVTs.

I'm with SVT-40 on this. You're going to see these prices continue to rise with a bit of ebb and flow, but, historically, they will rise. One of the main reasons you're seeing an increase in Finns and decrease in K98s is the price range and popularity. Unless you have a mass amount of disposable income, it's hard to seriously collect $1500+ firearms in bulk. Finns have been right around that $350 - $500 range for a while which means they're popular gun that's easier to pick up than a K98 or Luger and you can do that many times over. This exact reason is why I have 25+ Finns and not a single non-RC, matching K98.

Another thing is if you're actively losing money on your C&Rs, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. I've acquired and sold a lot over my 4.5 years in the game and, other than a pair of risky Lugers, haven't lost a single dollar. (FWIW, I knew the Lugers carried risk, but that was offset by the other acquisitions I made along with them). If you're buying at or above current market value thinking that the trend will continue, that's just not wise if you're looking to generate immediate equity. Yes, overall, they will be worth more a couple decades from now, but you still have to be smart about your purchases.

Lastly, give the Millenials a break already. Ever since I got into the game, I've been hearing about how kids just don't care, interest will dry up, and my guns will be worthless. Honestly, I've run into more people sub-40 who know their C&Rs more so than the old guys I've talked to (with a few exceptions in case you're reading this, Roy). Show me some stats rather than gun store/message board conjecture and I'll hop on board. Just because you see me picking up an AR-15 doesn't mean I wasn't scoffing at that Bubba'd Mosin on the rack. I'm a late-20 something who probably has a better collection than half those here and I don't plan on slowing down anytime soon. Don't worry, I'll carry the torch for you.

I have only been into milsurps (and guns in general) for about 5 years. This is an expensive hobby but I did not get into it to make money. Most guns tend to hold their value and fortunately, as past history has shown, milsurps tend to increase in value.

You also have to consider the value of the dollar has changed over time. According to this inflation calculator, an item costing $100 in 1980 would cost $291 today. 191% inflation. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

When I shoot my milsurps at the range they tend to draw attention because they are different than the ubiquitous AR-15. The older guys tend to know what they are but the younger crowd still shows interest.

Millennial here. Honestly the increase of price has hampered my collection quite a bit. I'm working on fixing that right now, had a meeting discussing a raise with my boss earlier today.

One thing I've noticed is that you guys seem to find deals all of the time. I can hardly ever find deals at my legs and when I do, I happen to be broke. Online retailers hardly have deals, and I hate buying something I can't imspect. I also feel like some of you that have been in the game longer have a solid network of c&r buyers that they can buy off of when they decide to sell. But this is all my speculation. What are some tips y'all recommend to beef up this collection?

Millennial here. Honestly the increase of price has hampered my collection quite a bit. I'm working on fixing that right now, had a meeting discussing a raise with my boss earlier today.

One thing I've noticed is that you guys seem to find deals all of the time. I can hardly ever find deals at my legs and when I do, I happen to be broke. Online retailers hardly have deals, and I hate buying something I can't imspect. I also feel like some of you that have been in the game longer have a solid network of c&r buyers that they can buy off of when they decide to sell. But this is all my speculation. What are some tips y'all recommend to beef up this collection?

- Get an 03/COE
- Constantly check C&R message boards/forums
- Gunbroker is your best friend
- Learn what to look for in pictures (there is a learning curve and you may get burned, but that's the price of education)
- Learn the current market value for typical firearms
- Never buy high or above current market value (unless it's a unicorn/must have)

- Get an 03/COE
- Constantly check C&R message boards/forums
- Gunbroker is your best friend
- Learn what to look for in pictures (there is a learning curve and you may get burned, but that's the price of education)
- Learn the current market value for typical firearms
- Never buy high or above current market value (unless it's a unicorn/must have)

EDIT:
- More money

Thank you. I've always been hesitant about the 03/COE. Mostly because of the hassle and the fact that it allows the gov to check on your collection at any time. I'm working on the more money part right now.

I have a small family that I mainly dislike and no heirs. I plan on leaving the majority of my estate to the NRA. No children, never been married. I doubt I'll have children. Almost got married once not sure if I'll be open to that again.

Leaves me a lot more disposable income than most people my age and I enjoy spending it as wisely as possible on guns.

Wait... did I write this?

Every word above could have come from my very fingertips and I've written the exact same kind of post numerous times in the past.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarian

What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?

One thing that was not mentioned in this thread that is very important is that many rifles are becoming C&R, including early Colt AR sporters. This is another curveball in the game, as rifles currently sold will have little difference to an older version of themselves. Not so much an issue in CA since it's all banned, but in other states it means lots of rifles coming to market that are exempted from background checks.

That also means that they will go up in value.

People tend to forget that there are now quite a few years' worth of Colt Pythons that are now C&R - that and many other guns. Time is creeping up on us....

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarian

What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?

You guys who have no one to leave anything to, do you need a surrogate son in law? I can totally play the role if you leave me some C&R. I'll throw in 2 free games of catch and a #1 dad mug for free.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by doggie

Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG

Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.

"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

You guys who have no one to leave anything to, do you need a surrogate son in law? I can totally play the role if you leave me some C&R. I'll throw in 2 free games of catch and a #1 dad mug for free.

The company with whom I hold an executive/partner/management position extends free life-insurance as a perk.

You should have seen the poor HR/Benefits girl's face, who is seemingly Leftist to the core, when I gave her the information to NRA-ILA and it's funding address as the sole beneficiary on my policy.

Apparently this had never been done before in the realm of her existence, and was quite unorthodox as I was duly advised, with a bemoaning "Are you sure?".

Laughed about that one for a good few days.

__________________-----------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarian

What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?

Win, lose or draw, I don't care. I buy them to play with, not for speculation. I've amassed a healthy collection over the last 40+ years and don't plan to cull the herd any time soon and when I'm gone I really won't care what happens to them.
Jon

I was at my LGS doing a DROS and saw an Enfield for $200. I was tempted but didn't know much about them as I'm new to C&R.

looked them up a few days later, realized that was a crazy price.

Called the store.

Gone. Sold hours before.

I'll never let that happen to me again.

I'll add that google and a smart phone are your friends

I will forever be haunted by a colossal blunder of mine last year

LGS had 190+ piece estate on consignment and I was like a kid in a candy store

I got a couple grest deals for sure and even though the collection had been there for nearly two months, most of it was still sitting on the shelf. The guys in the shop referrrd to them as "all those old guns in the corner."

I picked up a minty Ljungman and looked it over briefly. It was in superb condition but I didnt know much about them as they weren't on my radar. I saw "6.5 Swede" on the tag and thought to myself "nah I don't want to add another Caliber right now."

So I passed on it for the paltry sum of $450

A week later I realized what I had done and called the shop immediately, it sold two days prior after sitting on the shelf for two months

Never again indeed

Any time I see something that I don't know about I look it up on the spot and check recent gunbroker sales to at least get a ballpark pricing figure

Millennial here. Honestly the increase of price has hampered my collection quite a bit. I'm working on fixing that right now, had a meeting discussing a raise with my boss earlier today.

One thing I've noticed is that you guys seem to find deals all of the time. I can hardly ever find deals at my legs and when I do, I happen to be broke. Online retailers hardly have deals, and I hate buying something I can't imspect. I also feel like some of you that have been in the game longer have a solid network of c&r buyers that they can buy off of when they decide to sell. But this is all my speculation. What are some tips y'all recommend to beef up this collection?

I got back into firearms just before Sandy Hook, and most of my buys took place in the shadow of a gun ban. Even so, it was possible to find stuff at good prices, without having to get a FFL03. Keep an eye out & get a general feel for prices so you know if something is a smoking deal or something you can sleep on. And it helped that my local LGS had a good C&R selection.

Something else to consider is that you can't really overpay for a C&R, you're just early on the price.

__________________
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"There is no "best." If there was, everyone here would own that one, and no other." - DSB

[QUOTE=huntingsocal;19663062]When this subject comes up I often hear something along the lines of "Buy for enjoyment, not for investment."

My genuine question is, why not both?

Is buying as an investment frowned upon because it is assumed those pieces are stashed away in a safe never to be fired?

Too much risk? Wouldn't think that would be it as the general consensus is values go up.

I am a purveyor of vintage bass equipment as well as C&R and stick with the same philosophy for tube amps as I do for rifles.

A.) Buy stuff I think is cool

B.) Buy stuff for less than I could sell it for if I had to

C.) Take advantage of package deals

D.) Sell off "place holders" for upgrades of what I really like

E.) Take good care of what I've got while I have it

F.) Have fun using it

I have some tube amps, effects pedals, speaker cabinets and guns that are worth anywhere from double to quadruple what I paid originally. They've all fit the above criteria AND are what I consider to be good investments

Of course I don't put all my eggs in one basket and I'm certainly a novice when it comes to C&R so what say the pros here?

Why not buy for fun AND investment?[/QUOTE

How can you argue with any of the above? Why not fun and investment?

I plan to keep buying until I die. If none of my family want my C&Rs, they will go to the young people at work with whom I shoot once in a while. At least they give a damn about history.

C&R firearms are a commodity like anything else. No one knows for sure if values will go up or down, but if you go by huntingsocal's rules above, I bet you will be way ahead of the game.

Good things come to those who wait. PATIENCE is paramount in this hobby. Don't try to amass everything all at once. I've been at this game for over 40 years. Luckily I've got most everything I wanted but there are still a couple I'd like to acquire but I've pretty much written them off. I'm not going to jeopardize my housing or go hungry just to satisfy a couple of wants. I'll keep on keeping on and if I'm supposed to have them, they'll become available at the right price. If they don't, oh well, I've still got a whole safe full of other toys to play with. Like I said, just slow down and let nature take its course. If and when you're supposed to have them you'll have them.
Jon

For you whippersnappers, Gunboards also, I have scored some nice rifles for good prices over there. Scan it every day, there is usually something interesting for sale. The challenge with C&Rs is knowing when you are finding a killer value and knowing when something is overpriced. Two years ago at a local show, a guy was selling an American Made Mosin M91, I think it was Westinghouse but it could have been a Remington also? Anyway, this Mosin looked basically mint brand new, the guy wanted $1,200.00. I was sorely tempted because brand new in box condition 1918 Russian rifles made by American gun companies with a beautiful oiled walnut stock do not grow on trees. I almost went back and bought it but I checked with six different gun boards, and the experts told me that was a $600.00 to $900.00 rifle. So I didn't buy it. But I was very, very tempted because it was so cool, unique and interesting. I passed up another deal at another gun show on an M27 Ski Trooper stocked Finn Mosin. It wasn't in great condition but it was decent and the price was GREAT. Another Calgunner bought it because I saw it, but I didn't know enough about Finns to know what I was looking at. So I passed it over when I should have grabbed it. That rifle has probably tripled in value in the past four years because it's a Finn Mosin and a rarer one at that.

So the key is knowledge. Know the guns you are looking for, know the finer points and know current market values. Also know the recent sales trends. Some C&Rs have done pretty good on value increase. I bought an Enfield No V MKI a few years ago for $300.00 and sold it recently for $600.00 about two years after I bought it. But my Sino Soviet SKS are still worth pretty close to what I paid for them four years ago. Without knowing what these guns are worth, you are either going to over pay or you are going to miss rifles that may be relatively costly but are actually worth a LOT more than what the seller is asking for them. It happens.

I can't claim to have my finger on the pulse of the C&R market since I only see a very narrow view of it. I don't interact with 20-somethings socially except at the shooting range so my view of them may be skewed a bit. But I see a love for and interest in milsurps. I only have a modest collection but I try to bring them out to share with others at Calgun shoots to give the younger guys and gals a chance to see and shoot this stuff.

I bring out, for example, a 1909 Argentine Mauser for people to shoot so they can get first-hand experience with it. Otherwise, how will they know how cool it is? Same thing with my Swiss K-31. A couple of young guys were on the fence about it and one didn't even know what it was. Three of them all have their own example now because they have had a chance to shoot it.

Regarding hand loading, of course there is a cost savings per round. But it is a time investment to recoup your costs. You recoup your costs very quickly if you hand load expensive ammo, and then the main thing is the time investment. But another benefit of hand loading is the ability to custom make your ammunition to your specifications. For a lot of the bolt-action milsurps I load for, I am making the ammo to give me about 90% of the power of the military load. It is more accurate than the surplus ammo, and also much more comfortable to shoot. The recoil isn't cut down to 90%, it is cut down to about 66%. That is because, to get that last 10% of power, you have to raise pressure a lot more than 10%.

Anyways, I can handle shooting full power stuff all day. But I like shooting the most accurate ammo I can make, and for novice milsurps shooters, being able to shoot a full size service rifle cartridge comfortably really helps ease them into the sport/hobby/whatever you want to call it. Nobody misses that last 10% of power when they are just shooting at 100 or 200 yards. So while it is still a time investment, there are other benefits to hand loading besides reducing cost per round.

Win, lose or draw, I don't care. I buy them to play with, not for speculation. I've amassed a healthy collection over the last 40+ years and don't plan to cull the herd any time soon and when I'm gone I really won't care what happens to them.
Jon

So you don't mind if the state of CA gets all of your estate or relatives that you don't like? I have a feeling a good part of my collection came from widows blowing out their late husband's collection for a song to their local gun shop.

There is no real secret to finding gun deals. Have the knowledge and money and put in the time and you will find them. I commonly see people here overpaying and impulse buying. I really wish they would stop since it encourages FFL's to charge more but it is their money to spend as foolishly and impulsively as they like.

My love of history drew me to Milsurp and the guns themselves kept me around. That being said i think interest is starting to wane in comparison to the Black Rifle market especially with the proliferation of affordable AR15s and now AK47s but Milsurps will always have a niche in the market. I think when things in Eastern Europe and the Middle East settle down we will see more shipments of C&Rs coming in. Also those old Garands and 1911s in korea. We will probably see Prices drop.

...combined with the regret that some folks have a few years after selling off that cheap C&R that was their first gun purchase at big 5, and hid it under their bed hoping his parents wouldn't find it, which they did, but never mentioned it (I think dad was proud) until several years later, but you sold it off not realizing that it had sentimental value, until it was gone........
what were we talking about? Oh, C&R prices, no, never going down.

So all of this talk about huge collections being sold. Let me ask those of you with a sizeable collection, where do you see your mulsurps going after you pass? Do you have heirs lined up? I'm young so no kids yet, but I plan on raising my future children to appreciate weapons and hopefully they will keep them in the family.

If any of you don't have heirs, I am open to adoption. I am one millennial that surely appreciates these classic rifles.

Might as well throw my hat in the ring to.

Your C&Rs are safe with me, I promise you

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodEyeSniper

My neighbors think I'm a construction worker named Bruce.

Little do they know that's just my stripper outfit and name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopperX

I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?

The challenge with C&Rs is knowing when you are finding a killer value and knowing when something is overpriced. Two years ago at a local show, a guy was selling an American Made Mosin M91, I think it was Westinghouse but it could have been a Remington also? Anyway, this Mosin looked basically mint brand new, the guy wanted $1,200.00. I was sorely tempted because brand new in box condition 1918 Russian rifles made by American gun companies with a beautiful oiled walnut stock do not grow on trees. I almost went back and bought it but I checked with six different gun boards, and the experts told me that was a $600.00 to $900.00 rifle. So I didn't buy it. But I was very, very tempted because it was so cool, unique and interesting.

LOL...

I bought this junker in 2006 for $350... All matching and original....I've been offered north of $2,000 for it....

At the time it was a great price, and I didn't even try to bargain the price down...

Some guy on Gunboards is selling a NEW M91 in similar condition for $5,2000 Which is crazy...

Prices for quality items will always go up...

__________________Poke'm with a stick!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddletown

What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.

That's the difference. How often do you see an actual near new NEW or Remington? Not very, which elevates them to unicorn status. Those experts are still right as a decent condition, non-Finn is more common and in the $600 - $900 range.

That thing is pristine! Very nice.
Now for my usual dumb question: Why would this have a US ordnance bomb stamp? I thought these rifles were created for private contracts, not a US government contract.

That thing is pristine! Very nice.
Now for my usual dumb question: Why would this have a US ordnance bomb stamp? I thought these rifles were created for private contracts, not a US government contract.....

IIRC, after the communists took over, Remington and Westinghouse had a bunch of rifles that they couldn't deliver, so the US government bought a whole bunch of them to basically bail them out.
Ian w/ Forgotton Weapons has a very recent youtube video on US made Mosins with some of the history, very good watch.

That thing is pristine! Very nice.
Now for my usual dumb question: Why would this have a US ordnance bomb stamp? I thought these rifles were created for private contracts, not a US government contract.

The flaming bomb and eagle were ASFIK applied to all the Rem's.... I've seen a number of Finn marked Rem's with these markings...

More or less just a US approval markings.

__________________Poke'm with a stick!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddletown

What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.

Good things come to those who wait. PATIENCE is paramount in this hobby. Don't try to amass everything all at once. I've been at this game for over 40 years.
Jon

Quote:

Originally Posted by saki302

You'll never see C&R prices crash.
This is the same exact thing we thought in the 90s/2Ks about surplus ammo and parts kits. Problem is, they're not making more. And some models sit in collections until the owners die- or forever if their kids like it.
Remember $180 Russian capture K98s, $80 Yugo SKSs, and $60 Turkish Mausers? Me too
I'm hoping Russian imports come in again so we'll see cheap(er) SVDs/SVT40s.

I waited 2 years before I made an offer on the SVT I just got Monday. Since the supply has reportedly dried up, I got nervous and couldn't wait any longer, so I made an offer.

I traded 2 mongrel SKS and 2 Big 5 91/30s that I've had for 7 or 8 years. So you can guess how much money I had tied up in them. I still would rather have been able to afford the SVT out right, but it was out of my pay grade.

I'm ecstatic, the other fella's happy, so I got to step up a notch. Also scored on 1K X54 at '90s prices. PAX

__________________ You need a crew

"A free people should be armed and disciplined" (George Washington),

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.~John Adams 1798

It a NOT a felony to steal a gun, but it IS a felony not to register a gun you already legally own

As long as the word "Rare" is used in the description of a C&R gun, people will pay. A regular Mosin Nagant or 1895 model Nagant is not rare. There in no reason to pay 300 bucks for either one of these. A CZ52 is not rare, don't pay big prices. in the earlier part of this century, I paid no more than 100 for mosin rifles. I paid 69 for nagant pistols and 139 for cz52. I have always said their money in the bank, but in truth, all my guns are going to my son.

__________________
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.