Not surprised that people would mis-use Manning for a cause Manning doesn't actually support. There's a big difference between being categorically opposed to war and wanting to reveal covered-up details about specific conduct in a specific war.

As a side-note, thank you Ars for using the correct first name and correct pronouns. A lot of websites might not do the same.

wait, is Chelsea / Bradley Manning going to be at a male or a female penitentiary?

[edit] looked it up on the Atlantic. For those curious:

Quote:

Reassignment to a Female Prison: Unlikely. Some are wondering whether Manning's gender transition will be followed by reassignment to a female military prison facility. The answer? Probably not. Unfortunately, prisons "usually" place inmates in units based on their birth gender, according to both NBC News and The National Center for Lesbian Rights. (For what it's worth, the United States Disciplinary Barracks says that it has procedures in place to protect Manning and other transgender inmates from violence and abuse, saying in a statement today that "The USDB has implemented risk assessment protocols and safety procedures to address high risk factors identified with the Prison Rape Elimination Act.")

Not surprised that people would mis-use Manning for a cause Manning doesn't actually support. There's a big difference between being categorically opposed to war and wanting to reveal covered-up details about specific conduct in a specific war.

As a side-note, thank you Ars for using the correct first name and correct pronouns. A lot of websites might not do the same.

While I think I can understand where this is coming from, in what way, today, right now, is Bradley Manning a female?

As a side-note, thank you Ars for using the correct first name and correct pronouns. A lot of websites might not do the same.

While I think I can understand where this is coming from, in what way, today, right now, is Bradley Manning a female?

In the context of a transgendered person, the test for which name and which pronoun to use is neither chromosomes nor genitalia, but what they identify as. I'm a straight guy who was born male, and nobody forces me to drop trousers to make me "prove what I've got" before referring to me as male. This is no different. It's common courtesy.

As a side-note, thank you Ars for using the correct first name and correct pronouns. A lot of websites might not do the same.

While I think I can understand where this is coming from, in what way, today, right now, is Bradley Manning a female?

In the context of a transgendered person, the test for which name and which pronoun to use is neither chromosomes nor genitalia, but what they identify as. I'm a straight guy who was born male, and nobody forces me to drop trousers to make me "prove what I've got" before referring to me as male. This is no different. It's common courtesy.

But off the internet, in person, there's a difference.

Am I to assume then that you'd have no issues with "Chelsea" using the woman's restroom? Women normally have issues with that sort of thing for some reason. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure the police would take issue as well if called.

For starters, do you think it would be OK for "Chelsea" to share a shower at a female prison?

Well, I do not really think it's okay to make prisoners share a shower to begin with. Prison rape is a real problem even when genders are not mixed. So, based on that, "no".

Do you think it's okay to make straight and gay men share a shower together?

Would it be okay to force a gay man and a gay woman to share a shower? A gay man and a straight woman?

If you're going to assert that ... I don't even know what criteria you're using, phenotype? genotype? (what if they don't match for natural reasons, as happens sometimes?) ... if you're going to assert that that matters and nothing else matters, you'll have to explain your reasoning to me.

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The word 'female' means something, and by every measure, it does not describe "Chelsea".

I do not believe there's consensus that you are factually correct -- there is today no universally agreed-upon definition of "female" that covers all cases. None. By some of the measures in very wide use, Chelsea fits.

Am I to assume then that you'd have no issues with "Chelsea" using the woman's restroom? Women normally have issues with that sort of thing for some reason. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure the police would take issue as well if called.

Police? I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a criminal statute criminalizing an individual who is born as a man but identifies and conducts themselves as female from using a woman's public restroom.

And the only person bringing up restrooms and showers is you. I was thanking Cyrus for using the female pronoun and the first name "Chelsea" in this article about a letter Manning released. The article has nothing to do with prison facilities or public restrooms.

The United States Disciplinary Barracks says that it has procedures in place to protect Manning and other transgender inmates from violence and abuse, saying in a statement today that "The USDB has implemented risk assessment protocols and safety procedures to address high risk factors identified with the Prison Rape Elimination Act

Great. It seems they are on top of that issue when it pertains to transgender prisoners but turn a blind eye to addressing the sexual assault of their female enlisted soldiers.

The United States Disciplinary Barracks says that it has procedures in place to protect Manning and other transgender inmates from violence and abuse, saying in a statement today that "The USDB has implemented risk assessment protocols and safety procedures to address high risk factors identified with the Prison Rape Elimination Act

Great. It seems they are on top of that issue when it pertains to transgender prisoners but turn a blind eye to addressing the sexual assault of their female enlisted soldiers.

Its a good thing the military has its priorities straight.

I don't think it's wrong to find it decent that they have some conception of trans rights and still be horrified at any other tolerated horrors within the military and allied mercenary contractors (XE, Academi, Blackwater, whatever those monsters are calling themselves these days.)

Unless he has had his penis amputated, he is male and should be referred to as "he". Wearing women's clothes does not a woman make.

But the absence of a penis does? So if a man has been the victim of a traumatic accident or torture, and had his penis amputated, would you refer to him as a woman even though he self-identified as a man? Of course not. So you see, when using pronouns to refer to other people, the core test is still their own self-identification, not the condition of their genitalia.

While I think I can understand where this is coming from, in what way, today, right now, is Bradley Manning a female?

At the very least, by self-identification.

No, at the very most.

For starters, do you think it would be OK for "Chelsea" to share a shower at a female prison?

The word 'female' means something, and by every measure, it does not describe "Chelsea".

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There may or may not be other ways; given the clear self-identification, many people stop looking any farther.

You can self-identify yourself as a Norwegian giraffe, but what you are is unaffected.

Quote:

Many people consider it simple courtesy to comply with someone's wish to be identified as they self-identify, especially when they're not aware of any particularly compelling reason to do otherwise.

If Bradley feels he's a woman trapped in a man's body let him self-identify as such, but that does not make him a woman.

Here's a good test for gender determination: Why the fuck do you care, or get to decide, what someone else is? This very article is about Manning's complaints with people deciding her to be a pacifist.

While I think I can understand where this is coming from, in what way, today, right now, is Bradley Manning a female?

At the very least, by self-identification.

There may or may not be other ways; given the clear self-identification, many people stop looking any farther.

Many people consider it simple courtesy to comply with someone's wish to be identified as they self-identify, especially when they're not aware of any particularly compelling reason to do otherwise.

Can I self-identify as African-American?

Well there is a very high (100%) probability that you have African ancestors so I guess it depends on whether you're American or not. Or maybe there's some arbitrary cutoff on how many generations it's been since your last ancestor lived in Africa.

Not to belittle that whatsoever, but I'd think the woes of being a soldier with a prison sentence are kind of a bigger deal here.

Being close friend with someone who went through a full gender transition, she would probably want to say here that being in a body of the wrong self-identified gender is like being inside a prison in your own body.