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Topic: Number of kids (Read 18735 times)

Does the Orthodox prohibition of contraception mean that Orthodox couples have tons of kids? What if you can't afford to raise them all or you neglect to pay adequate attention to some because you have so many?

Granted, I won't need to deal with any of this for a long time. But it's still a bit worrying.

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Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

I will start the discussion by saying that the Orthodox Church's attitude towards contraception (however defined) probably doesn't rise to the level of "prohibition", though it depends on who you talk to.

LOL! I see you didn't get many responses to this. Everyone is afraid to touch it. The idea behind contraception, mainly chemical, is that is does not simply prevent ovulation in the wife. Hence, it has to have other back up mechanisms that are inherently abortive in nature. We can't just simply say we are pro life then do everything possible to commit atrocities for the sake of our convenience.Plus, Orthodoxy doesn't separate sexuality from procreation as protestants and the secular world are so wont to do.It ain't easy, I will tell you that much

I just hope that I'm not going to hell for only intending to give birth to two children (whether that's going to happen or not is another story). I'm not going to lie, I get nightmares of having to choose between my life and the child's if something goes wrong during the pregnancy (and there is a good chance it might, actually). Even thinking of my first birth will start a panic attack.

I love children and we do plan to adopt, though. I like to hope that at the end of the day, that it won't matter too much. God will judge me.

I think some more women need to chime in on this one. It's easy for men to take such firm stands on contraception when they don't have to give birth. Offense intended. I won't tell my TMI story here, what I'm doing, but I am struggling with this idea at the moment.

And yes, I know what the hard-line view on contraception is. Now, whether Orthodox couples practice that is another story.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 09:59:40 PM by IsmiLiora »

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Taken. After all, we're only heartless men, with no attachment, love, or appreciation for life and it's creation.

I was joking, sorry that I didn't put a winky face there. Although, in all seriousness, I don't pretend to empathize with situations that I have not experienced myself. I can only sympathize. And while I believe that most men whole-heartedly sympathize, I don't believe that they generally have the same fears that a woman does about her child. Scratch that. Fears to the same degree, I guess?

Of course I consider what the Church says on it, though, which is why I admit that I'm struggling. I was just pointing out that it's easy to put a number and say "absolutely no thinking about preventing pregnancy, ever!" if the person doesn't have to give birth or is not concerned about that at the time.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

I have been Orthodox for 12 years. I have never seen or heard of any *really* large families in all that time. I have seen a few with six kids, which to me is still quite manageable.

Just sharing my personal experience:

We have four children. During the time they were coming along, we used no contraception. They all arrived roughly 2 years apart.

During my last pregnancy, about halfway through, I began having extremely strong thoughts and feelings of "this is the last time I can do this." Too strong to ignore. After she was born, and after much prayer and counselling with our priest, we made the decision for my husband to have a vasectomy (I would have had a tubal after the c-section, but it was a Catholic hospital and they don't perform them).

A few years after that, I developed problems that necessitated having the Novasure procedure done. Pregnancy after this procedure is extremely dangerous and is to be avoided. So, he would have ended up having the vasectomy anyway, eventually.

As far as affording kids, my first thought is that it is not NEARLY as expensive to raise a child in this country as the media would have us believe, particularly if one parent can stay at home and avoid childcare costs. We lived solely on one income from 1995-2009 and we've been fine.

Mary I don't know if I can wholeheartedly agree with you. I have 7 after all (for now), and one of those is profoundly disabled with a condition that is totally random. Having that one child is like 7 more all by herself. *manageable* is a term that can't be decided for other people.Today is her 9th birthday and she has spent it seizing in my arms, despite a medication increase that causes her to turn into Godzilla. We have been a single income family since marriage in 1992, and while it doesn't take the copious millions the media suggests it DOES take more than we can generate. Especially when God won't bless one blessed thing my dh does. ( even our priest is shocked at how much we are enduring, and he's rarely speechless) I am not one of those quiverful ppl that pretends that God puts magic groceries on your stoop or pays your light bill with the power of the cosmos. That irks me. The reality is hard, but then the path IS narrow.

I do not find men in general to be callous about regards to life, but they tend to a bit more removed from it in a direct sense as they cannot carry it within them. Of course I am speaking about moral men to begin with. My husband has been able to remove himself from this surprise pregnancy entirely despite the fact that I never got so sick in all our years together, because he CaN. In the end however, its about trust and living our Faith in action. We might have a legitimate health issue, those do arise. However for *most* women (exceptions included) it comes down to trusting whatever God plans for your life. That could be adoption, or a large family or none at all. The same goes for men, and I think for them its harder to get to the point of agreeing to shoulder the material responsibility than it is for women to get to the point of literally carrying the physical responsibility. That's my take from all these years of making people.

Oh wow, calligraphqueen! You are so strong to endure all of that! I don't even know what to say that's adequate.

Lord have mercy on you and your family. I will say a prayer for all of you.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

All I meant, and said, is that six seems manageable *to me*, and I think I could have handled six as well as I handle four. Of course I cannot, and wasn't trying to, speak for anyone else, nor addressing special circumstances. I am sorry if anything I said seemed flip or offensive to you.

interesting points.i think that certainly discretion should be used in special cases (i think it's called ecconomia) and i think most orthodox and catholic scholars approve the 'rhythm' method, where a woman's most fertile days are avoided.There are very few families in the Bible that had huge numbers of children, so family 'spacing' must have been carried out then as well.

i have (very) disabled people in my (extended) family too, so i know how much work that is; may God give you peace and the ability to ask for help as well.by the way, not all contraceptive pills have side effects of possibly causing abortion; only the 'progesterone only' pill does that. It stops any fertilised egg from implanting, although the main effect is to prevent fertilisation of the egg.

maryofegypt - cool user name.of course another way to avoid having children is to live in the desert as a hermit and see no other human until you are very old...

1. How come this conversation onlya mentions the pill and abstinence? What about condoms?

2. If single income life is possible for you, you should really thank God for that. In Orthodox countries (with the possible exception of Cyprus) it would be completely impossible for a family to survive on just one income.

2. If single income life is possible for you, you should really thank God for that. In Orthodox countries (with the possible exception of Cyprus) it would be completely impossible for a family to survive on just one income.

It ain't particularly easy here too. I cannot imagine having a wife and certainly not kids on my salary, as it stands. They'd be wearing rags and eating stray dogs.

It is a wonderful experience, having children, but it is also a trial by fire that never ends. The rewards outweigh the headaches, and every day I am glad to have these little monsters in my life, but I find it hard to take seriously those who want to pontificate about birth control but don't have children themselves. These types also tend to have plenty of parenting advice.

I say this as the second of six and as a father of three (and at 26, likely more).

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 07:38:52 PM by Agabus »

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

2. If single income life is possible for you, you should really thank God for that. In Orthodox countries (with the possible exception of Cyprus) it would be completely impossible for a family to survive on just one income.

It ain't particularly easy here too. I cannot imagine having a wife and certainly not kids on my salary, as it stands. They'd be wearing rags and eating stray dogs.

The necessity of the double income is another of the sour fruits of feminism in the Anglosphere.

2. If single income life is possible for you, you should really thank God for that. In Orthodox countries (with the possible exception of Cyprus) it would be completely impossible for a family to survive on just one income.

It ain't particularly easy here too. I cannot imagine having a wife and certainly not kids on my salary, as it stands. They'd be wearing rags and eating stray dogs.

The necessity of the double income is another of the sour fruits of feminism in the Anglosphere.

+ One thousand million. A rarely spoken about phenomenon. Without steering the thread off course, good on you for mentioning it, Akimori!

2. If single income life is possible for you, you should really thank God for that. In Orthodox countries (with the possible exception of Cyprus) it would be completely impossible for a family to survive on just one income.

It ain't particularly easy here too. I cannot imagine having a wife and certainly not kids on my salary, as it stands. They'd be wearing rags and eating stray dogs.

The necessity of the double income is another of the sour fruits of feminism in the Anglosphere.

+ One thousand million. A rarely spoken about phenomenon. Without steering the thread off course, good on you for mentioning it, Akimori!

When you double the workforce you drive down prices (i.e. - wages, the price of labour). Workers are a commodity and are bound by the same rules as all other commodities.

2. If single income life is possible for you, you should really thank God for that. In Orthodox countries (with the possible exception of Cyprus) it would be completely impossible for a family to survive on just one income.

It ain't particularly easy here too. I cannot imagine having a wife and certainly not kids on my salary, as it stands. They'd be wearing rags and eating stray dogs.

The necessity of the double income is another of the sour fruits of feminism in the Anglosphere.

+ One thousand million. A rarely spoken about phenomenon. Without steering the thread off course, good on you for mentioning it, Akimori!

When you double the workforce you drive down prices (i.e. - wages, the price of labour). Workers are a commodity and are bound by the same rules as all other commodities.

Precisely, and that ridiculously rapid influx (1970s until present) and subsequent shift in jobs, wages, etc. caused a substantial change in how most families are now able to operate.

And we sit and wonder why Western societies aren't having lots of kiddies. I'm not saying that's the only factor, but it's certainly a major one.

LOL! I see you didn't get many responses to this. Everyone is afraid to touch it. The idea behind contraception, mainly chemical, is that is does not simply prevent ovulation in the wife. Hence, it has to have other back up mechanisms that are inherently abortive in nature. We can't just simply say we are pro life then do everything possible to commit atrocities for the sake of our convenience.Plus, Orthodoxy doesn't separate sexuality from procreation as protestants and the secular world are so wont to do.It ain't easy, I will tell you that much

NON SENSE!NON SENSE!

See some other thread, where I pretty much PWN'd someone on this issue.

i think condoms are considered by most orthodox churches as the same as 'spilling your seed', so they are not encouraged.

Which is silly in prohibition. But "pulling out" when done correctly is pretty much as effective as proper condom usage interestingly.

And that means very effective.

There's that old myth over pre-cum that can causse pregnancy which I think the chances are below 18%.

Couples who utilize the pull out method are actually in the tens of millions worldwide, and if I'm not mistaken the most commonly used birth control method.

"Pre-cum" is just silly anyway. I'll get the study. Pulling out is over or just about 90% effective.

Ain't many semen in that fluid before organism, it is primarily seminal fluid. Your prostate relieving itself. More likely to occur under certain circumstances. The amount of "pre cum" seminal fluid can be quite large.

I can add a personal anecdote here within a medical context backed up by the experience of my urologist, if wanted.

If you couple pulling out with just a vague understanding of time of ovulation, the likelihood of pregnancy is very, very low.

For many guys though, pulling out ain't a reliable method for others it is no problem.

"Pre-cum" is just silly anyway. I'll get the study. Pulling out is over or just about 90% effective.

Ain't many semen in that fluid before organism, it is primarily seminal fluid. Your prostate relieving itself. More likely to occur under certain circumstances. The amount of "pre cum" seminal fluid can be quite large.

I was under the impression if one masterbates before sexual intercourse there is still semen in the uretha if I'm not mistaken..

But yes pulling out is 90% effective.

Quote

If you couple pulling out with just a vague understanding of time of ovulation, the likelihood of pregnancy is very, very low.

For many guys though, pulling out ain't a reliable method for others it is no problem.

From personal experience, it does get harder and harder to pull out upon each sexual encounter especially if you are in a relationship.

I'm going to refrain from talking too much about it but I am in agreement with you here.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

From personal experience, it does get harder and harder to pull out upon each sexual encounter especially if you are in a relationship.

Well that is obviously what the WOMAN is for.

Sorry, TMI too.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Sometimes I wonder if the obsession with sex-related topics on OC boards is the result of an oversexualized culture or if it is the result of high numbers of former Evangelical converts, who tend to be sex-obsessed but in weird, repressed ways (the same can be said for Catholics, but to a lesser extent).

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Sometimes I wonder if the obsession with sex-related topics on OC boards is the result of an oversexualized culture or if it is the result of high numbers of former Evangelical converts, who tend to be sex-obsessed but in weird, repressed ways (the same can be said for Catholics, but to a lesser extent).

I am just offering sex-ed. Most people are just wrong about birth control in general, especially religious folks, since they try to make principled stands based on theoretical medical possibilities.

Sometimes I wonder if the obsession with sex-related topics on OC boards is the result of an oversexualized culture or if it is the result of high numbers of former Evangelical converts, who tend to be sex-obsessed but in weird, repressed ways (the same can be said for Catholics, but to a lesser extent).

If we are not allowed to say that, then I apologize and hope my post is edited for content.

Sex is very much apart of our culture, in fact even more so than the past few decades when you think about it...yet it remains so taboo. I've never really understood that. For a culture that is constantly being bombarded by sexual imagery and prose you'd think people would be more comfortable about it, though that's not the case.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

I think we're all skirting the line. Most of us are being particularly vague and generalizing what we're saying.

Argh, I want to go more into this discussion of withdrawal, but I shall refrain for the moment.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

I am just offering sex-ed. Most people are just wrong about birth control in general, especially religious folks, since they try to make principled stands based on theoretical medical possibilities.

There are medical reasons to be against [some forms of] chemical birth control, but the reasons religious folks give are usually off-base.

Since we're laying all our cards on the table, breastfeeding coupled with a woman knowing when she is or isn't fertile (and it's not as complicated as the thermometer and chart brigade wants to make it sound) and being willing to use coitus interruptus is pretty darn effective.

But I can't see how anyone railing against any kind of birth control can even practice that if they're being intellectually honest. Birth control is birth control, even if you're using a more "natural" means. If you're really that against it, then leave it in and hope this one doesn't count.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 10:28:27 PM by Agabus »

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Sex is very much a part of our culture, in fact even more so than the past few decades when you think about it...yet it remains so taboo. I've never really understood that. For a culture that is constantly being bombarded by sexual imagery and prose you'd think people would be more comfortable about it, though that's not the case.

That's the difference. Our "culture" is bombarded with sex, not our Church. Culture appeals to our ego, and emphasizes pleasure of body and self. Church focuses on the salvation of our souls, and not so much on bodily pleasures.

Unlike other religions which emphasize sex (Islam comes to mind - burkhas so as not to tempt the men, and yet those men will get 72 virgins in paradise - just plain creepy), Orthodoxy on the other hand emphasizes God and the salvation of your immortal soul.

Sex is reserved for the married couples. It's not emphasized because in truth marriage is an "optional" sacrament. Some marry, some don't. Therefore, excessive talk of sex to the unmarried, just might push them beyond their self-control and make them stumble.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

As a Traditionalist Roman Catholic I never used artificial contraception (I actually would not have even if I had not become an RC, simply because I don't believe in drugs for elective purposes).

Unlike the modern novus ordo People of God church (in existence since after Vatican II), Traditionalist Catholics do not even practice Natural Family Planning (not to be confused with the old "rhythm" medthod which did not work). NFP, with Trad Catholics, is used only when a woman must space pregnancies for health reasons. Modern novus ordo adherents seem to believe in using it routinely.

Anyway, in all those years I conceived 7 times (and a few of those were when we were using NFP to actively try TO conceive). 4 of those babies tragically we lost to stillbirth and miscarriage, but we ended up with 3 living children.

All without ever using any birth control method, or even NFP (for avoiding pregnancy).

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 11:34:01 PM by Xenia1918 »

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

I just hope that I'm not going to hell for only intending to give birth to two children (whether that's going to happen or not is another story). I'm not going to lie, I get nightmares of having to choose between my life and the child's if something goes wrong during the pregnancy (and there is a good chance it might, actually). Even thinking of my first birth will start a panic attack.

I love children and we do plan to adopt, though. I like to hope that at the end of the day, that it won't matter too much. God will judge me.

I think some more women need to chime in on this one. It's easy for men to take such firm stands on contraception when they don't have to give birth. Offense intended. I won't tell my TMI story here, what I'm doing, but I am struggling with this idea at the moment.

And yes, I know what the hard-line view on contraception is. Now, whether Orthodox couples practice that is another story.

I don't want to scare you if you have not had children yet, but let me tell you what all happened to me once I overcame my fear of having children (yes, even Traditional Catholics can have those feelings).

I became pregnant 7 times in the course of my marriage. The first 2 children were delivered by C section, but that was really the least of it. After our second child, we lost 4 babies in a row...one 10 week miscarriage, and three 6th-7th month stillbirths. But wait, its not over yet.

Then I conceived a 5th time, and while that pregnancy was uneventful and resulted in our last living child, a girl....I unwisely chose to try a vaginal birth after Caesarean with her, and the result was a catastrophic uterine rupture (look it up--very rare and usually very fatal to both mother and child)...thanks be to God we both survived with no harm done, other than that I needed an emergency Csection with her, and also a subtotal hysterectomy (uterus removed, plus one ovary and tube damaged in the rupture.)

But hey, I'm still here! Would I do it all over again if I knew the outcome in advance?

You bet I would.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 11:30:51 PM by Xenia1918 »

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

As a Traditionalist Roman Catholic I never used artificial contraception (I actually would not have even if I had not become an RC, simply because I don't believe in drugs for elective purposes).

Unlike the modern novus ordo People of God church (in existence since after Vatican II), Traditionalist Catholics do not even practice Natural Family Planning (not to be confused with the old "rhythm" medthod which did not work). NFP, with Trad Catholics, is used only when a woman must space pregnancies for health reasons. Modern novus ordo adherents seem to believe in using it routinely.

Anyway, in all those years I conceived 7 times (and a few of those was when we were using NFP to actively try TO conceive). 4 of those babies tragically we lost to stillbirth and miscarriage, but we ended up with 3 living children.

All without ever using any birth control method, or even NFP (for avoiding pregnancy).

I am so sorry for your loss. My wife and I have lost two children because of mere "biology" (most likely, immunological incompatibility), so I can relate.

Yet, three children, if you ask me, are too many. One or two of them will have to pay their college expenses, which, likely, means loans, etc. (and very likely confusion, depression and the like).

As a Traditionalist Roman Catholic I never used artificial contraception (I actually would not have even if I had not become an RC, simply because I don't believe in drugs for elective purposes).

Unlike the modern novus ordo People of God church (in existence since after Vatican II), Traditionalist Catholics do not even practice Natural Family Planning (not to be confused with the old "rhythm" medthod which did not work). NFP, with Trad Catholics, is used only when a woman must space pregnancies for health reasons. Modern novus ordo adherents seem to believe in using it routinely.

Anyway, in all those years I conceived 7 times (and a few of those was when we were using NFP to actively try TO conceive). 4 of those babies tragically we lost to stillbirth and miscarriage, but we ended up with 3 living children.

All without ever using any birth control method, or even NFP (for avoiding pregnancy).

I am so sorry for your loss. My wife and I have lost two children because of mere "biology" (most likely, immunological incompatibility), so I can relate.

Yet, three children, if you ask me, are too many. One or two of them will have to pay their college expenses, which, likely, means loans, etc. (and very likely confusion, depression and the like).

Just why is it that several children are beter than one child?

My kids have no interest in going to college, so that's not an issue. They are interested in technical school instead.

Why are several children better than one? As someone who grew up as sort of an only child (my only sibling was 12 years older than me and already out of the house by the time I was 6), I HATED it. I never had anyone to talk to other than my parents (which was OK, but its one reason why I can't relate to people my own age, only much older).

Being an only child is a CURSE that no child should have to endure unless the parents simply were not physically able to have another child.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 11:36:56 PM by Xenia1918 »

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

God bless you! I hope it all works out well for you. The Duggars have some good info and insight on their website about raising large families, you might want to check it out.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

As a Traditionalist Roman Catholic I never used artificial contraception (I actually would not have even if I had not become an RC, simply because I don't believe in drugs for elective purposes).

Unlike the modern novus ordo People of God church (in existence since after Vatican II), Traditionalist Catholics do not even practice Natural Family Planning (not to be confused with the old "rhythm" medthod which did not work). NFP, with Trad Catholics, is used only when a woman must space pregnancies for health reasons. Modern novus ordo adherents seem to believe in using it routinely.

Anyway, in all those years I conceived 7 times (and a few of those was when we were using NFP to actively try TO conceive). 4 of those babies tragically we lost to stillbirth and miscarriage, but we ended up with 3 living children.

All without ever using any birth control method, or even NFP (for avoiding pregnancy).

I am so sorry for your loss. My wife and I have lost two children because of mere "biology" (most likely, immunological incompatibility), so I can relate.

Yet, three children, if you ask me, are too many. One or two of them will have to pay their college expenses, which, likely, means loans, etc. (and very likely confusion, depression and the like).

Just why is it that several children are beter than one child?

My kids have no interest in going to college, so that's not an issue. They are interested in technical school instead.

Why are several children better than one? As someone who grew up as sort of an only child (my only sibling was 12 years older than me and already out of the house by the time I was 6), I HATED it. I never had anyone to talk to other than my parents (which was OK, but its one reason why I can't relate to people my own age, only much older).

Being an only child is a CURSE that no child should have to endure unless the parents simply were not physically able to have another child.

I grew up as an only child and I LOVED it. I cringe when I hear my wife's stories about the sibling rivalry she had with her sister growing up. She would be so much happier if she were the only child.