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None of your hunters would put out the dps a well built and well played hunter who used the "go-to" Huntsman (blue) trait-line with, probably, 2 Bowmaster (red) traits added in for the 2 trait-line set bonus.

Despite being mostly a blue line hunter, I have somewhat managed to reach my 5b Imp. Fleetness DPS while traiting 4r3b, In fact both 5b Imp. Fleetness and 4r3b builds are very solid in term of DPS, but 5b build requires certain armour set bonus (which may disappear from next new end game armour set - the sole reason I switches to 4r3b during early RoR) to be efficient as 4r3b.

Originally Posted by Macdui

With a main as a guard I never liked the damage dealers coming in with big crits early in a fight - "target" lighting up with heartseekers, cool burn and improved focus.

Hunter just isn't diverse enough to have any significant benefits to multiple LIs. not like all the other classes where you want 3 full sets of LIs. hunters still will be easy mode in that capacity.

Actually having multiple LIs still give significant advance for even a hunter. A melee buffer with all reduce CD kind of legacies, a CC/buffing xbow with Burn Hot legacy and those benefit Distracting Shot, and another set of LIs for survival for example. Actually with current systerm, I myself am aiming at 7 regular LIs + bridle for maxing everything (but those LIs are so expensive to make..).

Stealth for Hunters

One of the skills requisite in a real bow hunter is stealth because one has to get within arrow range of the target. I think the hunter class would benefit by having the same or similar individual stealth skills as the Burglar class for all races, not just the natural stealth skills racially inherent to the Elves and Hobbits, and with a similar recharge time (10s) instead of the current 1/2 hour.

I'm not talking about shooting without breaking stealth, just movement.

One of the skills requisite in a real bow hunter is stealth because one has to get within arrow range of the target. I think the hunter class would benefit by having the same or similar individual stealth skills as the Burglar class for all races.

That makes sense, but probably only for attacking Boars, Wolves, and maybe Stags.

I completely concur with LetalLethality. If you have stealth for animals, you will certainly have it for humanoids.

You have already set a precedent for what I have requested in one of the role-playing historical scenarios (I forget what the precise term is) where the player is role-playing a hunter from the ancient past. That hunter could snap in and out of stealth just like a burglar.

So why not as a class skill? I wouldn't even mind if it was a legendary skill, just that it's an available option in one of the legs of the traits tree.

One thing that we wanted to address was the lack of distinct feel between the various lines pre U12.

Distinct feel? I'm a hunter. I have one feel. I shoot things at range. The further away the better. I shoot things and I keep shooting until it's dead. All other skills support this. Traps? they're used to hold other things in place until I can turn my attention to them and then shoot them, preferably at range. Lures? Tripwires? See traps.

In my most humble, humble, opinion, there is no one that chooses to play a hunter class looking to fire bear traps at 40 meters. The Trapper line exists because someone decided that all classes should broken into 3 groups and then they ran with the idea. This is why you feel the need need to address "the lack of a distinct feel." But it's a false feeling born of that decision, and it's not necessary.

Originally Posted by Jinjaah

The hunter overall felt like the Bowmaster was the core of the class...

Wait...what? Based on what? Most hunters I know play Huntsman heavy (Moors play notwithstanding). And I've never seen a yellow line hunter...I think they're a myth

Originally Posted by Jinjaah

...and venturing into the other lines was being used to supplement it...

Yes, why? Because someone decided it was a good idea to have 3 "starter" lines. We have no choice but to dip into other lines...it's how it was designed.

Am I off base here? Are there actually people that join MMORPG's to play a Hunter/Ranger style ranged class in hopes having CC ability? Is there any hunter in any lore anywhere that cannot run and shoot? Is it just me that thinks this class has gotten far too complicated and limiting?

I'm sure whatever HD has in store for hunters I'll get used to it. But Jinjaah, if this was your starting point, I'm already depressed.

I'm looking forward to the changes. No focus loss on the move in blue trait line sounds great to me, shooting on the run either but might be a little overpowered in terms of pvmp. Though I'm very excited to see where this is going!

If you really want to distinguish the trait lines in Hunter then the Bowmaster line should enhance damage and critical hits for ranged attacks (BOWmaster), the Huntsman line should enhance all damage (ranged and melee) done to an enemy that has been tracked and marked with the Track skill (HUNTsman), and Trapper of Foes line should enhance all damage (trap and ranged and melee) done to enemies who have been trapped or snared with the Set Trap skill (TRAPper of Foes). This mentality of distinguishing the trait lines runs in contradiction to the mentality that intentionally separated the traits Critical Eye and Deadly Precision into different trait lines though. If you say, "We want to distinguish Bowmaster from Huntsman" and then divide the traits that work best with each other between the two trait lines, that is called "not doing what you say you want to do". It's like the left hand of LOTRO is trying to make the trait lines better for combining styles, and the right hand of LOTRO is trying to make the trait lines better for using only one style.

Some useful changes I'd like to see:
1. A single tracking option instead of three, mainly for quickbar space but also I can look at the ground and tell in the same glance which tracks are from a person and which tracks are from a deer. Types of NPC detected can still be based on level, either have three tabs on the results window or withhold types from a cumulative list until the player reaches the appropriate level to track them. Basically, define the three types of trackable npc after the induction and not before.
2. Improved Camouflage adds +1 or 2 to stealth level and allows for movement at a decreased movement speed, breaks on detection/combat or skill induction.
3. Trapper of Foes line has more induction based trap options. Level appropriate hand wrought traps are hard to find on AH compared to fire oils and bow chants, another reason no one builds a Hunter around Trapper of Foes. I think I've used fewer than 10 hand wrought traps of all the types combined.
4. Improved Campfire lasts longer than three minutes and has an AOE buff against fear or removes fear based on level. If you call yourself a Hunter, and claim to be able to survive in the wilderness, and you can't build a campfire that lasts longer than 3 minutes, that's when you know you're a loser.
5. Improved Cry of the Predator scares away a number of beasts within melee AOE range even if the beast is not targeted by the player; or calls a single targeted beast to aid the Hunter in combat for the spell duration instead of fleeing. I never use Cry of the Predator because it requires me to cycle targets in combat. The boss I'm fighting is probably immune anyway, I want this skill to be more useful for scaring away the beasts that I'm not currently targeting but keep interrupting my swift bow induction. Otherwise get rid of this skill in light of Cry of the Hunter. It's worthless to lose my attack flow and switch targets to scare away one beast when I can more easily daze multiple opponents of all kinds and receive temp morale and thirty seconds of trouble free inductions.
6. More mounted combat archery attacks. Or something. Against a single mounted warg rider opponent in the Wildermore I'm better off increasing my crit chance and finesse and unloading a barrage of devastating hits from a single spot on foot in approximately 5-10 seconds rather than mounting up and firing a round, waiting, fire another, turn back, fire another, build up some fury, turn back, hopefully fire the last shot. Otherwise build up some fury, let all of my cool downs expire, turn back...

7. PvMP servers distinguished from Role Playing servers. A lot of the mechanics of this game rely on teamwork and community and when a player gets swept up in the Ettenmoors they tend to stop contributing to essential role playing elements of the game like crafting and fellowships.

Distinct feel? I'm a hunter. I have one feel. I shoot things at range. The further away the better. I shoot things and I keep shooting until it's dead. All other skills support this. Traps? they're used to hold other things in place until I can turn my attention to them and then shoot them, preferably at range. Lures? Tripwires? See traps.

Well said. I like for things to die fast, and the farther away from me they are when they die, the better. It was a huge bonus to my play style when we started being able to auto loot our kills from range instead of having to run up to everything we killed to get the goodies off them. I am actually pretty depressed about Helm's Deep. I'm afraid I won't want to play my main anymore by the time they are done with it. I am holding off putting any more money into this game to purchase this rather expensive expansion that probably won't be broken down into quest packs until I know whether I am going to like what has been done to me or not.

Yea - they go away. Along with your ability to lay traps unless you have, for a bet or something, traited the yellow line.

Thanks Kongas, I understand crafted traps go away. I'm still unsure what happens to the mats we've saved over the years like the bundles of straw. Those took a long time to gather, and I would rather take my loss and grab back the space but only if I'm sure all of this is now useless. Maybe it has other uses? Maybe the traps can be traded for something? Maybe the mats can be traded for something?

We just seem to be losing a lot of past effort, storage costs, etc and it would be really nice if Turbine could tell us whether it is just a straight loss or if we should wait for the update as they might have just a little compensatory value beyond vendor trash. Either way we live with it, but not knowing what course to take is pretty frustrating.

Feeling good is easy when there's nothing left to lose. I'm hoping that I get at least a weekend of old friends stopping in to check out class changes with me. We all have so many alts of various levels that maybe Goblin Town might be fun for a few hours. Sure wish they would scale players for that one, its already instanced, and it is a shining monument of middle earth. I still have never found all the buttons.

Underwhelmed. I guess it's good to see ToF get some love, but I really don't see the point of the other changes. I play huntsman now but sounds like bowmaster will be the way to go from now on. Why exactly would I need to kite when I can kill just about anything before it gets near me?

I, apparently, am one of the few who use Bowmaster because it fits my personal fighting style. And, I agree with you. I have yet needed to kite an enemy on the ground. Why would I need that ability now??? One has to wonder, are these improvements or simply changes for the sake of change?

[IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff98/Amberdrake67/sig-lotro2_zps2d1c9938.jpg[/IMG]
Have fun storming the castle!

If you really want to distinguish the trait lines in Hunter then the Bowmaster line should enhance damage and critical hits for ranged attacks (BOWmaster), the Huntsman line should enhance all damage (ranged and melee) done to an enemy that has been tracked and marked with the Track skill (HUNTsman), and Trapper of Foes line should enhance all damage (trap and ranged and melee) done to enemies who have been trapped or snared with the Set Trap skill (TRAPper of Foes). This mentality of distinguishing the trait lines runs in contradiction to the mentality that intentionally separated the traits Critical Eye and Deadly Precision into different trait lines though. If you say, "We want to distinguish Bowmaster from Huntsman" and then divide the traits that work best with each other between the two trait lines, that is called "not doing what you say you want to do". It's like the left hand of LOTRO is trying to make the trait lines better for combining styles, and the right hand of LOTRO is trying to make the trait lines better for using only one style.

Some useful changes I'd like to see:
1. A single tracking option instead of three, mainly for quickbar space but also I can look at the ground and tell in the same glance which tracks are from a person and which tracks are from a deer. Types of NPC detected can still be based on level, either have three tabs on the results window or withhold types from a cumulative list until the player reaches the appropriate level to track them. Basically, define the three types of trackable npc after the induction and not before.
2. Improved Camouflage adds +1 or 2 to stealth level and allows for movement at a decreased movement speed, breaks on detection/combat or skill induction.
3. Trapper of Foes line has more induction based trap options. Level appropriate hand wrought traps are hard to find on AH compared to fire oils and bow chants, another reason no one builds a Hunter around Trapper of Foes. I think I've used fewer than 10 hand wrought traps of all the types combined.
4. Improved Campfire lasts longer than three minutes and has an AOE buff against fear or removes fear based on level. If you call yourself a Hunter, and claim to be able to survive in the wilderness, and you can't build a campfire that lasts longer than 3 minutes, that's when you know you're a loser.
5. Improved Cry of the Predator scares away a number of beasts within melee AOE range even if the beast is not targeted by the player; or calls a single targeted beast to aid the Hunter in combat for the spell duration instead of fleeing. I never use Cry of the Predator because it requires me to cycle targets in combat. The boss I'm fighting is probably immune anyway, I want this skill to be more useful for scaring away the beasts that I'm not currently targeting but keep interrupting my swift bow induction. Otherwise get rid of this skill in light of Cry of the Hunter. It's worthless to lose my attack flow and switch targets to scare away one beast when I can more easily daze multiple opponents of all kinds and receive temp morale and thirty seconds of trouble free inductions.
6. More mounted combat archery attacks. Or something. Against a single mounted warg rider opponent in the Wildermore I'm better off increasing my crit chance and finesse and unloading a barrage of devastating hits from a single spot on foot in approximately 5-10 seconds rather than mounting up and firing a round, waiting, fire another, turn back, fire another, build up some fury, turn back, hopefully fire the last shot. Otherwise build up some fury, let all of my cool downs expire, turn back...

7. PvMP servers distinguished from Role Playing servers. A lot of the mechanics of this game rely on teamwork and community and when a player gets swept up in the Ettenmoors they tend to stop contributing to essential role playing elements of the game like crafting and fellowships.

My Hunter is a Bowmaster for the simple reason that I shoot to kill, period. That is just how I fight and I am good at it. And, I absolutely agree with both your description of the trait lines and possible changes that would be for the best for the class. For one thing ... Of the three classes I have at 85 (Hunter, LM and Champ) the Hunter takes the longest to kill an enemy when mounted. I find that ridiculous. For another, I never use Cry of the Hunter for the reasons you have stated.

[IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff98/Amberdrake67/sig-lotro2_zps2d1c9938.jpg[/IMG]
Have fun storming the castle!

This Dev diary is really short on info and feels more like a press release rather than a diary. It's the sort of thing you read on the tin before you play a game. It would be useful if the Dev could provide some actual detail about these considerable changes rather than an aspirational overview.

I kite quite a bit esp pvp small group fights or soloing trees / trolls in limelight gorge back in the day. Blue line in fleetness with 2 red has been the way to go for serious raiding, instances and pvp for a long while now. The only excuse to be in red is in PVE where quite frankly everything is so easy to kill that you could actually trait nothing and still kill everything. for the last update I quested with a level 12 non-LI bow whilst levelling and got by completely fine. A group of us did go red recently in pvp, BH > HS and blowing up a single target from stealth. but we all soon went back to blue for "proper" fighting. I would never have used red line in raids for a long while now. As ever there will probably be a sweet build that most of us will opt in to, with many ofc who chose to go their own way according to playstyle. I think trapper will continue to be a duff line.

This Dev diary is really short on info and feels more like a press release rather than a diary. It's the sort of thing you read on the tin before you play a game. It would be useful if the Dev could provide some actual detail about these considerable changes rather than an aspirational overview.

This thread is based off that Dev Diary.

Head into the Hunter forums and look for the sticky about class changes at the top.

Red go for the kill

I haven't played with yellow or blue yet but I like the new shot that consumes all focus. Basically you build up your focus for one uber all-or-nothing shot. I came from Lineage2 where bow chars were the most fun to play because with stacked crit rating and crit damage you could drop auto-attack 1 Shots on mages. The red line seems to now be giving the hunter some of that all-or-nothing fun. Probably until you try to get a group and all they want are trappers. We will see.

I've been exploring my hunter a bit after the update and the one thing
I find bothers me is the consumable traps being dropped completely, although
some hunters might not have used crafted traps much, I used them anywhere
from open fields to tombs. I used triple traps for mobs and bear/strong traps
for the ones with higher moral, Sometimes I would put a bear trap in the path
of what i was "hunting" so it walked into it just as I was releasing my arrow. I
had a large supply of traps for various lvl's, somewhere around 700. Seems they
really should have had trap skills in all builds. If you take away the traps all you
really have is an archer or bowmaster.