(14-12-2012 12:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote: But, the pray-er does see a point in prayer and honestly believes that it is helpful.

I see this in my son: If he gets hurt, he wants us to kiss his bo-bo. My wife and I know this does 0% to help the pain, but he thinks it does. Are we to stop kissing his bo-bos simply because the ineffectiveness of it?

It's kinda the other way around here, though, isn't it? The person for whose benefit the prayer is knows it's ineffective.

Just pointing out, I ain't got no dog (upside down or not) in this fight

(14-12-2012 12:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote: But, the pray-er does see a point in prayer and honestly believes that it is helpful.

I see this in my son: If he gets hurt, he wants us to kiss his bo-bo. My wife and I know this does 0% to help the pain, but he thinks it does. Are we to stop kissing his bo-bos simply because the ineffectiveness of it?

It's kinda the other way around here, though, isn't it? The person for whose benefit the prayer is knows it's ineffective.

Just pointing out, I ain't got no dog (upside down or not) in this fight

So let me get this straight.....no one here actually feels good about another person praying for them? I don't think there's a god to hear those prayers, but knowing that someone I care about is doing something they genuinely believe will help me, does, in fact, help. It,s uplifting and gives me a positive feeling to know that a person I care about cares back.

I've been thinking about this a lot the last couple days. The prayer itself is just a manifestation of a theists genuine concern for my well being. That makes me feel awesome. I may not need prayer, but to know someone who does is praying for me, IMO, can be powerful.

(14-12-2012 12:29 PM)Stark Raving Wrote: So let me get this straight.....no one here actually feels good about another person praying for them? I don't think there's a god to hear those prayers, but knowing that someone I care about is doing something they genuinely believe will help me, does, in fact, help. It,s uplifting and gives me a positive feeling to know that a person I care about cares back.

I've been thinking about this a lot the last couple days. The prayer itself is just a manifestation of a theists genuine concern for my well being. That makes me feel awesome. I may not need prayer, but to know someone who does is praying for me, IMO, can be powerful.

Actually, with me the thought that someone is worried about me (prayer or no prayer) actually makes things much much worse. Hence, I hide my problems.

I'd rather someone did something productive to help (if possible); if not, I prefer to not even let people know there is a problem.

But I also see where you're coming from. People are different and that's great.

(14-12-2012 12:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote: But, the pray-er does see a point in prayer and honestly believes that it is helpful.

I see this in my son: If he gets hurt, he wants us to kiss his bo-bo. My wife and I know this does 0% to help the pain, but he thinks it does. Are we to stop kissing his bo-bos simply because the ineffectiveness of it?

You think that he thinks it's to help the pain go away. It's entirely possible (probable) that he continues to do this as a ritual because you once upon a time, told him that it helps the pain go away. He looks to you to reinforce this. It's what kids do when they know you are lying and they are looking for the time when you tell them the jig is up. It is part of preconditioning which can be applied to many other aspects of a social upbringing. It's like Santa. Santa is the shit.... but how long are you gonna milk it? I know some people whose kids are 10 and 12 years old and they still "believe" in Santa - they know, but they aren't quite sure if the parental units are ready for them to know. I think it's weird but it's up to them to raise their children however they want.

And uh... it's boo-boo.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein

I don't always find it insulting. If it's coming from someone saying it because they're being sincere and caring, I don't. If they say it because they KNOW I'm an atheist and they are trying to insult me, then yes. It's strange how some people actually say it very condescendingly as if it's just to egg you on. I don't really let it get to me though. But for the most part, especially from indoctrinated family I know they mean it genuinely, so it doesn't really bother me.

I don't personally find it insulting - I know they're bug-nutty and think prayer is a legitimate solution to what they perceive to be my problem. It's just their take on reality.

But, as you said, in certain contexts it can be insulting. In fact sometimes, it's said as an insult (such as at the conclusion of a lengthy debate with a snarky believer). In that context, it's either a way of saying "I know you don't like prayer so I'll say it as a FUCK YOU", or a way of saying "I think you're a filthy non-believer, but I'm decent, so I'm going to flaunt my superiority by telling you that I'll engage in prayer on your unworthy behalf".

Either way, I simply tell them to go ahead and sacrifice a goat (or perhaps their child) as well, "just to make sure God really gets the hint."