I can't agree with anyone saying they have flex. The simple point is people will not want to continue to only be able to raid flex. Worse yet are the leaders of those groups. You don't already have 540+ ilevel gl getting into flex 3, or even flex 4. Hell, it's not uncommon for me to see people requiring 550+ for flex 4. So unless you get into normal raiding, you'll have to have full flex gear to get into flex raiding for the most part. At least the second half. My guild recently downed garrosh normal and it was annoying. Some of the targeted nerfs made bosses we had already killed feel so easy. I think the nerfs are inc. People might say "but the ahead of the curve achievement!". To that, I have one thing to point out to you. ICC nerfed. Heroic droped invincible 100% of the time on heroic. Did that matter to keep ICC hard for the entire expansion? No. Did the DS mount matter? No. The achievement will play no factor as to if the nerf is put into place or not.

Im not sure when the nerfs will be put in, but they will be. They nerfed every other raid thus far, SoO will be the same.

The answer is very simple-create one's own flex group. I know, I know, a pain in the ass it might be to organize an undergeared flex run that will probably actually wipe a few times.

Also, not every raid has had rolling incremental buffs/debuffs to use as the nerf. SoO (even heroic) is also getting nerfs, though targeted and perhaps small in their design now. But no worries, we still have, what, another 5 months?

Garrosh required full heroic gear (566) as an absolute minimum to kill for the top 10 guilds, now most people killed/are going to kill him with 575+. 582 is the theoretical maximum and quite unreachable for 10-man, just little more realistic for 25-man. And even with that gear 90%+ of raiders aren't even going to reach him.

Yeah, upgrades are nerfing bosses hard, but the last three bosses were overtuned to begin with. I assume with 6.0 they're going to swing the nerfbat hard, especially since Garrosh drops gear relevant to the next expansion.

What? Nerf LFR? Dude, go buy a brain if you can't even do LFR...
As it was said in here already, SoO doesn't require a nerf, because you will overgear it soon enough. It's kinda ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by kamuimac

people get better only to certain point - after that point they cba and quit game.

when blizzard sees q1 sub losses they will preset much more targeted/blanket nerfs in q2 -_-

Learn to play the game... If you don't know how to play it to get the kills on heroic, don't ask for nerfs, get better. Life is hard son, when you need to work hard on something in life to get it, do you ask your m****r f***ing god to dumb it down for you?

(Regarding DS LFR -> 5.0 LFR)
The loss of the ability to pass on loot is the loss of the ability to choose. This is communism.

oh yeah.. my team is stuck on 12/14HC, we have been for 6 weeks.. we'll just give up and go LFR or flex!.. thanks for your awesome well thought-out suggestion!!.

"If" we dont make progress this week, we draw a line in the sand and thats it.. we wait till next xpac.. we've had too many illnesses/absences/leavers/hoppers/<insert any other excuse> this xpac to get anywhere near finishing. We dont expect nerfs, we just say, we werent good enough this time.

If you got 12, you can get the last two. It's just going to take consistency. Absences will set you back for sure, but the big jump is 11 to 12, not 12 to 13 and 14.

They made a mistake in Cata, rolling progressive nerfs as early as 2-3 months into the tier. By April the instance was already nerfed by 20%, and DS lasted to September. People finished content too quickly and unsubbed.

Despite Blizzard's best efforts, WOD will not come any sooner than summer. I bet for early autumn release. They want the content to last. If this was DS, we could already have 15-20% SOO nerf at this point and sure, more people would finish the content. But also more people would get bored of it. It was DS that produced the "5 raidable alts" mindset, that you were so upset about when MOP launched. MOP at launch was very alt hostile, making it almost unplayable for any more than 2 endgame characters.

Instead they go with targeted nerfs now, evening out the difficulty spikes and imbalances between 10 and 25 man. One thing that I kinda don't like is still broken loot system in 10-man raids. The RNG is so punishing, there's nothing worse than disenchanting both drops from progression kill. Or getting warforged cloaks. I've hit item level 574 @ 11/14 heroic and that's almost it for this expansion. There's barely any room to improve and useful warforged loot happens less than rare mounts in 10-mans.

This problem is going to be solved in next expansion by removing 10 man raiding (at hc level at least).

Flex and LFR reduce the need for such a blanket nerf, but patch 6.0 will indirectly nerf SoO by changing all hit/expertise/dodge/parry into the new stats, resulting in a pretty significant increase of power for everyone.

its not... If Blizzard did the content thinking that Valor was a nerf ... well that 5k valor that guilds had during progress on garrosh should have made him a fucking punching bag...

That was not the case...

Blizzard took in consideration the Valor Upgrade not as a nerf... but a thing that Progress guilds Have...

Valor is not a nerf... stop dreaming.

Valor was intended as a nerf for Throne of Thunder. When blizzard decided not to bring out new VP items and left upgrades as is, every item you had unless you fed specific characters gear was fully upgraded. Also, Garrosh could definitely be done without valor upgrades, but it's definitely easier.

This is the reason there should be alternating patches for VP gear and upgrades. That way, at least the 8 extra ilevels feels like a big enough nerf + the targetted nerfs that blizz generally do.