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Women attract women. Period. The presence of women tells other women that a milieu is “safe”.

WN deficits in PR and social skills holds WN back more than ANYTHING.

Mosin Nagant:

Re: “We used all the time we were given under the permit”:

Two hours! The idea that someone must seek PERMISSION to speak out publicly in nonviolent protest in a public square is wrong. Why not use a few extra minutes or a few extra hours than “allowed”, because it is your RIGHT!

Talk about northerners being obsessively submissive to RULES!

However, it was very well done! Bravo! More of this!

G Prune

Good speech by Dr.Hill. Resonate to all Western Folks.

John Bonaccorsi, Philadelphia

Do you agree that William Penn’s colony stood head and shoulders above the other twelve, being founded intentionally as a Theocracy, and a much better one theologically and Biblically than the Calvinistic Massachusetts Bay colony?

Mosin — you know much more about this subject and probably all other historical subjects than I do. I will mention one thing that seems not to get as much attention as it should: Pennsylvania, I think, is the only one of those thirteen colonies in which there was never–ever–proscription of a religious sect. Maybe I’m wrong about that; but if that’s true, it’s a remarkable testament to the force of William Penn’s character. The sectarian strife that was throughout Europe and that came therefrom to the other twelve colonies seems not to have been able to pass through the filter of his personality, not even scores of years after he was dead. I wonder whether the forbidding of an establishment of religion–a forbidding that seems to have kept the United States pretty peaceful, religiously–would have entered the Constitution if that document had been drafted in a place other than Philadelphia.

Years ago, I heard a lecture from a man who was–and maybe still is–a law professor, here in Philadelphia. He himself was from the Midwest (German surname), but he spoke very admiringly of William Penn, whom he described as, to his knowledge, the only historical figure who’d declined to mistreat others the way they’d mistreated him. I guess he meant that Penn, who’d been jailed for his Quakerism, could have compromised his religious principles and turned Pennsylvania into some kind of officially-Quaker state, but he simply would not do that. I think one of Penn’s descendants came under intense pressure to proscribe Catholicism in the 1700’s, when the Penns still had the proprietorship of the state; but in the end, he simply did not do it. (By comparison: one of Lord Baltimore’s descendants, in Maryland, finally caved, I think.)

Even the so-called nativist or anti-Catholic riots of Philadelphia in the mid-1800s don’t count as a counter-example. In the first place, the government quashed those pretty quickly, I’m pretty sure. In the second place, I think the “Protestant” who stirred up the first riot was a convert–a Jew; moreover, he wasn’t Pennsylvanian. He was from the South; in fact, I think he’d been a second to Jefferson Davis in a duel–something like that. That kind of belligerence strikes me as un-Pennsylvanian. Out along the Pennsylvania Turnpike–between here (Philadelphia) and Harrisburg, I’ve seen an anti-abortion billboard that shows a child doing something simple, climbing a fence or something, next to the Biblical quote, “Before I knit you in the womb, I knew you” (if I have that wording right). It’s so gentle it almost brings a tear to my eye.

Compare William Penn with that Methodist preacher–can’t think of his name–who compromised on slavery once he himself had settled in Georgia; and who’s that New Englander who wrote “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”? That title gives me the creeps. Was William Penn ever associated with something so harsh? I doubt it.

Penn just seems to have been a rare figure. If there’d been a William Penn at the founding of the South or of New England–preferably, both–there probably wouldn’t have been a Civil War.

Penn held that the general moral/spiritual condition of a people is what is MOST important: “Government seems to me a part of religion itself, a thing sacred in its institution and end (…) And government is free to the people under it, whatever be the frame, where the laws rule and the people are a party to those laws; and more than this is tyranny, oligarchy, or confusion (…) As governments are made and moved by men, so by them they are ruined too. Wherefore governments rather depend upon men than men upon governments. Let men be good, and the government cannot be bad. If it be ill, they will cure it. But if men be bad, let the government be ever so good, they will endeavor to warp and spoil it to their turn.”

John Bonaccorsi, Philadelphia

Thanks for that link, Mosin. I’ve been compiling family history that, involves, naturally some history of Pennsylvania as a whole. Very helpful.

Mosin Nagant:

It is true that the Puritans of New England were even more intolerant of religious nonconformity than the English monarchy in the fatherland — burnings at the stake, hangings of “heretics” that would have included nearly forty Quakers had not the King of England intervened — in complete contrast to the policy of the Quakers of “New Wales” (Penn preferred to call his colony “New Wales”) — and it is clear that the major impetus to Lincoln’s War against the southern states came from the violently intolerant spirit of New England.

“It is true that the Puritans of New England were even more intolerant of religious nonconformity than the English monarchy in the fatherland “

But not more intolerant than Cromwell’s Roundheads. Hundreds were burned at the stake for heresy during the Commonwealth.

Mosin Nagant:

Imagine if Cromwell had moved to Massachusetts instead, as was planned.

John Bonaccorsi, Philadelphia

Mosin — Thank you so much for the link to “No Cross, No Crown.” That work, which I’ve now skimmed, proves what you said, about Pennsylvania’s magnificence. Which of the other of the thirteen colonies had a founder who produced anything like that? Its clarity and mildness are striking. It seems to prefigure the history of Pennsylvania, to which, as we’ve noted, Europe’s homicidal spirit of religious contention seemed to gain no admittance–not, anyway, as far as I, with my limited historical knowledge, am aware. I’ve been thinking about the Pennsylvania Germans, who, as I think I’ve read, were believers in adult baptism (as opposed to child baptism). This, as I understand things, put them in the unenviable position of being attacked by both Catholics and Protestants. What was the place to which they migrated, the place where they knew they would be able to live as they chose? Pennsylvania, of course. Possibly, one of their descendants used his own money to erect that anti-abortion billboard I mentioned. No Madison Avenue nonsense, no harshness–just an expression of love for children. Penn’s unique spirit is yet within his land.

John Bonaccorsi, Philadelphia

PS When I said the Pennsylvania Germans were attacked by both Catholics and Protestants, Mosin, I meant in their native Europe, whence they migrated to Pennsylvania. Just think about that: the Pennsylvanians among whom those Germans came to live were also Europeans, many of them probably European-born themselves–or at least, born to persons who were European-born; yet the behavior of those Pennsylvanians toward those adult baptizers was completely different from the behavior that had been exhibited toward those baptizers in Europe itself. That shows the stunning power of Penn; it’s as if he transformed a race.

Proud Globalist Race Traitor

Interesting discussion about William Penn. Interesting that he seems to be loved both by liberals and by the Far Right here.

As for the issue of women, I’m on Denise’s side. No movement can be successful without women, especially in the modern age. As someone generally opposed to WN and SN, I can only hope Denise’s agenda fails; if she does succeed, you all might have a real shot. Having women in the movement does three things; it helps women think outside the feminist or mainstream Christian boxes, it makes women already supporting you feel safer in the movement, and it also attracts men who may want to meet women, or might also feel the movement has more legitimacy with women in it. Most people are used to living in mixed-gender spaces these days.

Mosin Nagant:

Thanks, John B. The German Anabaptists were invited to join the Holy Experiment. They shared meetinghouses with the Friends. They were also invited to Russia by Catherine. For the first time in a millennium outside Languedoc and Bosnia, non-Roman, the catholic apostolic brethren were welcomed instead of persecuted.

Re: “Interesting that he seems to be loved both by liberals and by the Far Right here”:

PGRT, a mythical figure is accepted, but the reality of the Christian preacher would NOT be loved by liberals, including modern Quakers — and it appears that “the Far Right here” (on OD) mostly despise it.