It makes me chuckle that people bitch about "prot" palas but its not the pala its the BoP (as others have said) that allows certain mechanics to be cheesed.

Also, battlehealer is pretty insignificant. If you want to look at big raidheals from a prot pala its holy prism / lights hammer that they come from. Other people have dealt with the self heals. They aren't out of proportion when it comes to mitigation. DK's bloodshields do more etcetc.

Put it this way, one class has to be best at a point in time, at the moment its paladins. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that they've been top of the pile for ages. In DS it was get a DK or gtfo. I'm sure theres other similar examples.

Finally, why not ask for other classes to be boosted to be more fun and engaging? Prot palas are fun to play, I've mained one since FL and I'm enjoying it now more than ever. Tanking is a role thats hard to fill, I don't find it a bad thing they've made it somewhat fun.

Look at all the prot paladins being offended lol. There hasn't been such an OP tank since TBC. Its ridiculous how much they heal and i am clueless why they would even want BoP to remove any tank debuffs. Nerf them, nerf them hard.

Look at all the prot paladins being offended lol. There hasn't been such an OP tank since TBC. Its ridiculous how much they heal and i am clueless why they would even want BoP to remove any tank debuffs. Nerf them, nerf them hard.

Thats a very productive post. Care to point out any post where anyone has been offended? All I see are decently reasoned explanations. The only butthurt I see is your post because whatever you play isn't top of the tree.

I think not only prot palas, but all the tanks should have their ridiculous raid healing abilities removed.
You know, we have roles in this game for a reason. And it is not very funny when tank role contributes 40-45% of the damage dealer and 40-45+% of a healer. Let all roles do their job, please. If you need tanks to do raid saves, let them have raid-wide "minus XX% damage" cooldown, but please, stop that nonsence with tanks healing raid and damaging like a damage dealers. Please.

If Blizzard went back to "stand in front of boss and keep aggro" it would be the most stupid thing they could ever do. Tanking in TBC and ICC was a snoozefest, on Loatheb (Naxx) I even went AFK once everyone had the buff because there was nothing else to do since no one did any threat. Oh, and on Blood Queen I was reading on forums and watching videos on YouTube until air phase. Very exciting stuff.

For once it's actually engaging to tank, because not only do you need to think about your aggro, you need to think about your damage, healing and raid utility. Paying that extra attention to trinket procs and timing DPS cooldowns with Hero and pots actually matters now, it makes a difference. How can that be wrong?

We're not here to "take your jobs", what has happened is that Blizzard has given us a larger role than before, our performance is much more important now than ever. If you're on top of progression, your damage, healing and raidwide CDs can make or break a fight. How is just standing still and pressing 2 buttons better than that?

Originally Posted by Rugz

Holes means you have less of a food to plate ratio, you can get more net weight of pancakes into the same volume and area as you could with waffles. Therefore pancakes win.

because not only do you need to think about your aggro, you need to think about your damage, healing and raid utility.

What exactly does "thinking about aggro & healing" entail, exactly? Healing is almost completely passive and threat is never an issue.

Personally I think tanks are overemphasized in raids right now. Vengeance allows us to match any dps on any fight or handily beat them on most encounters. It makes it fun for us but where's the satisfaction that a rogue gets from doing a perfectly 2cp rupture/fok rotation on 4 targets when the brewmaster is like "lol keg smash" and he does double the damage? How does a healer get enjoyment out of the game when they min/max their cascade/poh/uplift/healing rain etc., sub in a complex aoe healing rotation when the prot pally drops a light's hammer and does 5 million healing with one gcd?

I honestly think vengeance should just be capped at a tenth of the current value, maybe small modifications depending on what difficulty level you're playing at.

Its just bop removing debuffs thats the problem, like ppl are saying. Pala tanks are strong but like 1 person said already its the self healing that making them look good on meters, monks probably do more on a raid?

Sure, all bosses can be done with other tanks, but seriously. Most of the top 25man guilds use paladin tank. 9/10 top10 10man guilds uses paladin tank, the one that didn't was the 10th ranked. It's just too powerful. Tops the damage on most encounters and have sick self healing.

Except you fail to realize that Vengeance was nerfed so that was no longer possible for characters to do. While still receiving a lot of vengeance it's still capped so level 80 players can't do that anymore. The same could've probably been done by a Blood DK too, but hard to tell since most level theirs up instead of trying to do things like that.

Am I the only one thats finding this teir to be a huge cock block if you dont have a palading tank?

So many fights are completely changed, and made 10x easier if you have a prot pala, its becoming such a joke trying to compete with other raid groups just because of this.

For example, Horridon you can completly ignore the tank swap, and the pala will do so much healing hes basically a 3rd tank
Tortos can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. again huge healing to the raid
Megaera can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. the pala basically does the same healing as an actual healer (lol)
Durumu can be 1 tanked 2 healed with the use of bops and again... stupidly high raid healing.
Iron Qon once again can be 1 tanked with bops and extra raid healing.

Am I completely missing something? Are prot palas really not what they seem? Why havnt blizzard nerfed them yet?

I feel like our 522 prot warrior should just re-roll to his 500 ilvl prot paladin and probably be a way better tank, then we can cheese all the encounters like every other guild.

I also rolled from Warrior tank to Paladin tank, and loving it. There was a good topic going on about this with blue responses like week ago. Biggest ++ I found was the suggestion to give all tanking classes 1 secondary stat that would boost their survivability/raidhealing/damage (like haste does for Paladins). It will most likely happen for 6.0, until then, I do not know what Blizzard will do to warriors and DK:s who suffer most gear wise, no secondary stat boosts their dps and survivability at the same time, making insane scaling actually impossible. Druids and Monks are already kind of getting that treatment as crit/haste is not totally wasted, actually preferred. You know what I mean if you tank with various tanking classes, its a hard thing to fix during this expansion.

What exactly does "thinking about aggro & healing" entail, exactly? Healing is almost completely passive and threat is never an issue.

Personally I think tanks are overemphasized in raids right now. Vengeance allows us to match any dps on any fight or handily beat them on most encounters. It makes it fun for us but where's the satisfaction that a rogue gets from doing a perfectly 2cp rupture/fok rotation on 4 targets when the brewmaster is like "lol keg smash" and he does double the damage? How does a healer get enjoyment out of the game when they min/max their cascade/poh/uplift/healing rain etc., sub in a complex aoe healing rotation when the prot pally drops a light's hammer and does 5 million healing with one gcd?

I honestly think vengeance should just be capped at a tenth of the current value, maybe small modifications depending on what difficulty level you're playing at.

I have to agree with that. Vengeance is, IMO, the worst thing to happen to tanks, but then I've always been a big advocate of threat as something a tank needs to pay attention to. It's a mathy, crappy, passive thing that pisses everyone off except whatever tank is currently tanking the boss. The fact it went completely out of hand - when people complained about tank damage they said it'll all be better when everyone had gear, well, it only got worse - just makes it worse. I tank, too, (a paladin actually), but it's a pain in the ass now. There's no chance for me to be productive if the other tank has had aggro before me because vengeance will make him OP in every single way, dps, healing, threat, everything. There's no skill involved in any of that either, nothing. Everything of that is passive, the healing done, damage done, threat done, it's a passive thing, some number that just magically happens as long as a mob is beating on you. I want to build threat, I want to hold it, and I want to not keep my taunt on CD just in a feeble attempt to save the other tank from dying because he doesn't stop DPSing the mob with 200 stacks.

I have nothing against active mitigation. I like it a lot, though it makes healing boring if you have good tanks. But I just don't see why vengeance is needed. Especially now that Blizzard seems to move in a "dps stat" direction for tanks, and less to "parry/dodge", I just wish they'd drop the crap vengeance, let us achieve any healing and dps through our *own* skill and not through that of a passive mechanic in an attempt to fix a problem that really never was a problem (threat at higher gear levels.. Come on. I was there in a serious and competitive guild and threat was a factor but not such a hindrance that it justified such a dramatic solution as "vengeance").

monk's 50k+ dps more than any other tank in 10 man makes them the strongest tanks since alot of progresion fights are tough dps checks. Lei shen for example US first kill by Nightmare Asylum was Double monk tank. Paladins however are still the strongest overall tank. We need buffs to the other 3 not so much nerfs. The battle healer nerf was a sign that haste will not be nerfed since it was nerfed in anticipation of us hitting 15-20k+ haste next tier. so we will see how it goes. But I fully agree that the other 3 non monk non paladin should be nerfed.

I don't think its necessary to nerf HoP if other classes had similar utility, even if it was limited to tank specs. Personally from a DK PoV I do wish I had any raid utility, and no bloodworms and their 80%+ overheal don't count. for personal utility if Purgatory wiped all my debuffs I would consider that even steven for HoP.

@Cirque: Honestly blizzard hasn't decided what they want from tanks beyond surviving and it shows with things like dodge/parry being terrible for most tanks but being put in high numbers on our gear to avoid certain levels of secondary stats (mostly a plate tank issue), constant mastery tweaks, and utility across the tanks being all over the place.
With that I would love to see veng. reworked, but to do so tanks would need a rather large base damage increase which would wreck PvP, so I doubt it will happen.

I've long though Vengeance is the dumbest thing they did to tanks since WoW's release. 90% of what makes Prot Pallies OP is simply due to Vengeance scaling of their heals. All the rest is HoP which is available to all Paladins and has been around since vanilla, it has nothing to do with this spec and isn't OP unless Blizzard deliberately lets it affect specific boss debuffs.

There was a similar discussion in /p/aladin yesterday (mmoc board that is), as I said then, the biggest mistake was allowing debuffs to clear again. It was obviously an experiment to test the waters, one that failed.

Sotr aligning with various attacks is op yes, but the same can be done for blood shield and sbarrier so they can't change it without addressing all the issues, plus lets be honest, being able to use your active mitigation effectively is what they want you to do. Ala sha and raden. Should it be removed a lot of depth is lost from those classes.

The dps is a problem, since the haste build carries the veng so much further than other tanks who are already ahead of dps. The fix would be to balance paladins around the haste. However as the average LFR paladin doesn't run haste, you'd be nerfing most casual players to the ground.

i believe im the only Prot pally on my server that has gone past council other than my guildie. Casuals struggle with the prot haste build. Even my guildie is complete trash at the haste build and uses a mastery build. Its what Choice said, nerfing will destroy most casuals.
Rubert from Anvilmar.