"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Dad, Is the World Coming to an End?

As I drove my 14 year old son to school this morning he asked me, "Dad, do you think the world is coming to an end?" Yesterday was my son's first experience with Presidential elections in terms of his own personal interest, being of the age that he is beginning to pay attention to the future of our United States. I asked him what he meant by his question and he explained that he had heard several Christians say that Obama's election is a sign of the end of the world. I would have laughed had I not read similar statements by Southern Baptists on the internet. For instance, Big Daddy Weaver points out that one Southern Baptist pastor has written:

Obama is the most dangerous man in America. He is a greater threat to this nation than is Bin Laden....Obama will kill this country as we have lived free in it like no other before.... We must defeat the Obamas, Carters, Clintons . . . or they will destroy this nation.

I thought that the statements above were hyperbole until the author of them, when asked by other Southern Baptists if he actually wrote them, stated "I made those statements and many more like them. I stand by them for they are true." Then, he asks us to pray for Bin Laden, er, Barack Obama.

At some point we Southern Baptists need to realize that extremist statements like the above only do damage to our Convention's reputation, our country, and our stature in the evangelical community. Not to mention the fact that the Bible specifically teaches that all governmental leaders are "ordained" (i.e. "appointed") by God (Romans 13), and in fact, God calls them His "servants," so to "fight" against them is to fight against God. Barack Obama is our President, and the notion that he is worse for our nation than the man who masterminded 9/11 passes the boundary of Christian civility and moral decency.

I told my son, "No, son, the world is not coming to an end. God has given us Barack Obama to be our President. He is called God's servant in the Bible, and we trust that God will direct Him for the ultimate good of our nation to fulfill God's purposes for our world." I then encouraged my son to lift up Barack Obama and his family, to pray for them and their protection, and to do his part to speak a kind word about our next leader. He got out of the car, with a spring in his step, now believing that the world is not coming to an end, but more importantly, committed to show others that it is possible for Southern Baptist Christians to know and believe that President Barack Obama is precisely who God intended to be our next President, and to commit to pray for him, support him, and to show kindness toward him in the days to come. Would to God some of our Southern Baptist pastors would know and show this as well.

Is it possible that comments like the ones you quoted could be interpreted by the Secret Service as threats against our President? Just asking. I was shocked to read them, and wonder why there is no apology for them.

If you are going to quote me, please use the whole quote. Of course do so would not fit your intentions, would it brother?

Also, I have never referenced President-elect Barack Obama as Bin Laden. I rebuke you for even suggesting such.

Here is what I said on an earlier post of yours this morning. Of course you know it and determined not to quote me in my intent as is often your custom. Now, can I also expect you to delete my comment here as you did my comment a few years ago relating to Peter Flamming or will you give even this "devil" (cb) his due on your blog and not take it down?

Here is the whole comment to which you reference:

cb scott said...Tom Parker,

Of course, I made those statements and many more like them. I stand by them for they are true.I also made this statement last night on Bart Barber's blog after Barack Obama became the President-elect of the United States of America:

"cb scott said...We must now pray that President-elect Obama will seek the face of God as he leads this nation.

God will take care of the souls of His children. He always has and always will.

We must also pray for the soul of our nation.

Bart, I ask you to covenant with me and all of our brothers and sisters living in this nation that we would fulfill our mandate from God in 1 Peter 2:17 and prayerfully honor our president.

IN CHRIST FREE,cb"

I also stand by that statement.

Now, if you do not see how one can make each and every statement I have made with total conviction, you have no grasp of New Testament Christianity, nor the Book from which we receive our mandates for living as sojourners in this world.

In January Barack Obama will be president of this nation. I must pray for him that God would be given a place in his heart and mind as his Master.

I must also challenge you to do the same.

I, of all people will be most happy if he does embrace biblical faith and becomes the leader we desperately need at this time. God's grace is totally sufficient to not only give him eternal life, but to make him a great leader of this nation.

Consider the story of King Josiah from 2 Chronicles 34. When the Word of God was discovered by workers rebuilding the Temple of God and then "discovered" in the heart of the young King it changed his life forever.

Verse 33 of chapter 34 declares "Thus Josiah removed all the abominations from all the country that belonged to the children of Israel, and made all who were present in Israel diligently serve the Lord their God. All his days they did not depart from following the Lord God of their fathers."

May President-elect Barack Obama "discover" the same truth of God's Word and may he become in the present in our nation what Josiah was in his.

Tom, will you covenant to pray with me to that end?

IN CHRIST FREE,

cb

Wed Nov 05, 10:49:00 AM 2008

Now, Wade, will you covenant with me to the same end or do you want to continue in other things? I am willing to engage in either. Its your call my brother.

President-elect Obama will be our president and we both know he needs our prayers as he leads this country.

BTW, you owe me an apology for the Bin-Laden statement. That was low even for you. Of course, I won't be truly expecting it.

You said, "Obama is the most dangerous man in America. He is a greater threat to this nation than is Bin Laden"

Are you now DENYING you said this? It's all over the Internet including Baptist Life, Big Daddy Weaver's site, and even the previous comment section on this blog. Spin it all you want CB, and try to shift focus, but you are wrong, and thank God there are Southern Baptists unafraid to call you on it.

Robert, why should we expect anything different. You and CB are two peas in a pod and you both make me ashamed to be called a Southern Baptists. I intend on staying, but for heaven's sake, I wish the two of you would leave.

Agreeing that "the Bible specifically teaches that all governmental leaders are 'ordained' (i.e. 'appointed') by God (Romans 13), and in fact, God calls them His 'servants,'" I find it interesting that you can jump to the conclusion that "to 'fight' against them is to fight against God."

If this is the case, then it logically follows that the entire existence of our nation is an offense to God, because we fought against His servant, King George III.

We both know I did not compare President-elect Obama to Bin-Laden as a "terrorist."

You know exactly what my intent was in saying what I did. You are simply using the statement to flame up your groupies to help your cause once again.

Bin-Laden is a terrorist. Unless President-elect Obama does discover biblical truth as did Josiah his policies will be destructive to this nation if they come to fruition. As Rome crumbled from the inside so will America. A slow destruction will have a greater impact than one attack from a deranged terrorist. History proves that Wade. Or are you now even of a higher authority than history?

You know better Wade, but you again prove to follow your pattern. And that is what makes those good things you have done in the past of little value now.

Your need for stardom has certainly consumed you. And, Wade, that is truly a sad thing. Like many before you, you started well. But now the great question will be; How will you finish?

There is still hope Wade. Return to that which is really important in your life.

Or,

Do as you will here, Wade. Continue to feed your groupies. Satisfy your sick ego with their hollow cheers for you and jeers at anyone who would call your hand.

As I said to you privately, Wade, you are rapidly becoming what you detest.

"Remember, if you are going to fight monsters, you must not become one."

Believe it or not, our Baptist forefathers in England took this very same interpretation of the sacred text and called the American Revolution rebellion against God.

Funny, is it not, how some can read the Bible and come up with different interpretations of the same text.

I guess that is why Baptists should major on cooperation and resist anyone who forces their particular views on another.

And, of course, I would not say that there are NEVER any occasions to seek to fight against government leaders, as Bonhoffer, the plot called Valkyrie, and other Christian German resistance against Hitler proves.

However, once you call your leader a terrorist and hatch plans to remove him - if you truly believe that to be your Christian duty - then you need to be prepared to die in the performance of it, as were our American revolutionaries and Bonhoffer.

Could you please introduce me to the Southern Baptist prepared to give his life to "fight" Barack Obama? I think you cannot find one, and that proves my point.

Even though he was not my candidate of choice, our President-elect has been chosen. I wonder if God brought Mr. Obama to power because we, as evangelical Christians (and Southern Baptists) have put too much faith in the Republican Party.

We are supposed to be identified by our first citizenship, that of the Kingdom of God. But for the last 20-25 years we have been more identified with Republicans. I long for the day when "evangelicals" are known for their passion and zeal for Jesus and Him crucified instead of their passion and zeal for the Republican party and her candidates.

God has ordained Barack Obama as our next president. It is time to let go of the false notion that how we vote or who gets in office will make a difference in this nation. The only way we will see an improvement in this nation is when God's people humble themselves and pray and God moves His hand to save the people of this nation. The President will not bring about the blessings of God. Only true repentance and conversion by the majority of our citizens can do that.

I really have no need respond to any other person on this comment thread except Wade.

This is personal between us and he knows it as do I. It is beyond you.

But, I will make an exception here to respond to your question;

"Are you now DENYING you said this? It's all over the Internet including Baptist Life, Big Daddy Weaver's site, and even the previous comment section on this blog. Spin it all you want CB, and try to shift focus, but you are wrong, and thank God there are Southern Baptists unafraid to call you on it."

I have already claimed my statements and deny nothing. I have, in a statement above, given my intent in the statement. Read it. Take it or leave it. You are free to believe what you will. And I am willing to defend your right to do so.

There is no spin. I don't do spin. I just say what I believe. Wade is the master of spin in Blogtown.

Wade, I think you are now seeing what many of us endured in the 1980's. The attacks, character assassinations and over the top comments by many in the SBC hurt a number of people. You really give me encouragement by your ability to continue to post great articles and refrain from responding to personal attacks. Keep up the good work. Some may not like the fact you put the issues very squarely on the table, but after I read what you write, I sincerely have hope for the future of our Convention.

CB, the only one who seems to be taking it personally is you, and you are the one who made the comment. Apologize for your remark and be done with it, or, if not, take the heat. If you can't stand the fact somebody points out that your remarks are extreme, you shouldn't make them. But don't try to tell us they aren't what they are. We can read for ourselves.

".....to hold Southern Baptists accountable for their words and their actions."

I still hold that same goal. Evidence is abundant that you no longer do. I fear you are no longer listening to the little man in the chariot standing behind you as he whispers "Glory is fleeting, glory is fleeting."

AMEN! Thank you Wade. I hope more people read your post today because I think now, more than ever, it is important for us to come together. And having young children, it is so important for us (as adults) to support our leader - not only to give them peace and security, but to help them understand that one day they too will have the opportunity and privilege to vote.

To an extent, CB Scott is right, probably not in the way he meant though. Obama is a greater threat to American Government than Bin Laden. Not because Obama will kill and demoralize people but because of this forced redistribution of wealth. I'm sure he means well (If he doesn't I will assume he does anyway) but that creates a dangerous precedent for the US.

aside from his policies, It's not a bad thing to have a African-American Prez.(this whole PC thing annoys me, can we now say we have a Black President?, if not they need to call white people Caucasian-Americans)

I am reminded that Christianity flourished under the dictatorial and persecutorial Roman Empire, that Christianity flourished among African slaves in the American south while their backs were and legs were whipped by their white masters, that Christianity flourished in China during Mao's Revolution, that Christianity has flourished throughout the world under Marxist, Socialist, Communistic and other totalitarian regimes. Barack Obama doesn't even come close to the above, but even if he did, whose to say that it is not what is ultimately needed for the eternal betterment of our country in terms of true riches - the gospel of Jesus Christ. American politics is not equal to the Christian gospel. The latter transcends and trumps the former on all points.

"Such a God (he says) have we, such a God do we worship, to such a God do we pray, at whose command all created things sprang into being. Why then should we fear if this God favours us? Why should we tremble at the anger of the whole world? If He is our dwelling place, shall we not be safe though the heavens should go to wrack? For we have a Lord greater than all the world. We have a Lord so mighty that at his word all things sprang into being. And yet we are so fainthearted that if the anger of a single prince or king, nay, even of a single neighbour, is to be borne, we tremble and droop in spirit. Yet in comparison with this King, all things beside in the whole world are but as the lightest dust which a slight breath moves from its place, and suffers not to be still. In this way this description of God is consolatory, and trembling spirits ought to look to this consolation in their temptations and dangers.

President Obama has supported murder of innocent babies. When given the opportunity to do as he said he wishes (which is reduce not eliminate abortions) he has voted against such measures. From at least one of your previous post about life and when it actually begins, I must say I am not sure if you for or against abortion. However, the act of killing innocent lives be it for the sake of religious cleansing, retribution for governmental acts, or simply because of convenience is an act of terrorism imho.

I also believe that God has placed Obama into the presidency. As one Southern Baptist has pointed stated “God is God and we are not.” I don’t know why He placed Obama there, but I fear that God has indeed judged America stiff-necked and rebellious and therefore President elect Obama is part of that judgment just as many kings and leaders were to Israel as recorded in the Bible.

I will pray for President Elect Barack Hussain Obama. I will pray for our country and our churchs. Do I believe the world is coming to an end or Obama is the anti-christ? NO! However I am convinced that God has judged our nation and is punishing our nation. Could it be that Barack Obama’s pastor was prophetic when he said “God damn America?”Jason

You wrote, " I wonder if God brought Mr. Obama to power because we, as evangelical Christians (and Southern Baptists) have put too much faith in the Republican Party.

We are supposed to be identified by our first citizenship, that of the Kingdom of God. But for the last 20-25 years we have been more identified with Republicans. I long for the day when "evangelicals" are known for their passion and zeal for Jesus and Him crucified instead of their passion and zeal for the Republican party and her candidates."

MY COMMENT: Thank you SO MUCH for expressing this. I needed to hear this because I DO know some evangelical Christians who have supported Obama. I HAVE WONDERED why people of faith have glorified a political party so much? I think that they were duped. This saddens me because, this morning, I know that so many decent people are suffering because of their identification of the Republicans as 'God's Party'. Why is it always so hard for people to keep their focus on Christ and look to Him for help? He promised to help us if we asked.

L's

P.S. I hear that Liddy Dole lost in NC. I think it may have been because her opponent was vilified as a 'godless woman'. I'm sorry to see that Elizabeth Dole allowed that to happen. I always admired her. L's

Wade, I went to your website this morning wondering what you would say, since I guessed how you would have voted. Your post was good. I wondered for a moment where your son got his idea, then remembered how long it took to convince my granddaughter that Obama wasn't a Muslim and decided he got it from other kids.

Then I read the comments and thought, I need to go shopping and get an oil change before I reply - to be careful what I would say. After more thought I couldn't resist a brief comment.

I voted for Obama for President and Rice for Senate. I am a Christian, and no one but God can tell me otherwise. As far as that goes, both McCain and Obama say they are Christians and I'll leave that between them and God.

All the stuff about the Antichrist and candidates is so much nonsense. (I saw somewhere McCain called that also.) For something only to have meaning 1900 years after it was written in the Bible is stretching it beyond believability.

The President is the President. I prayed for Bush, though I voted against him twice. I prayed for wisdom for him and prayed for his health. I would be very partisan if I explained those two items, so I won't.

There are valid reasons to vote for or against candidates, and I can respect those. But this election has been bad for weird reasons. The problems facing our country are too complex not to study and vote carefully.

Buzzwords are never the answer, though they work too often. Call someone a liberal and they are instantly condemned by unthinking people who look no further at the person or the issues involved. (Rice v. Inhofe, SBC, etc.) The whole racial issue played its part - both ways. My guess is that the people who voted for or against Obama on that basis canceled each other out.

For that matter, abortion has become a buzzword. Politicians can claim to be pro-life on the basis of that one item, while starting unprovoked wars, being against health care for people who can't afford it otherwise (even children), and making no provision for parents to earn a living wage and have help when needed to take care of their families. I expect demand for abortions will go down when these other needs are met. (I have some opinions about sex education as well, but this is not the time to argue that issue.)

On another note, we are supposed to pray for our enemies, so so pray also for Bin Laden. I pray that he will turn from hate. It may be a stretch to pray that he will become a Christian, but I sometimes pray that as well.

far too many of us have been sorry examples in our homes, in our churches, in our convention, and now in politics by stating through our actions and words "if I don't get my way, I'm going to pick up my ball and go home"

Contrary to some who are venting this morning, God is not in heaven wringing his hand and saying, "Boy, I sure didn't see THAT coming."

Would you mind pointing out to Michael this statement relating to my response to your accusation.

"Bin-Laden is a terrorist. Unless President-elect Obama does discover biblical truth as did Josiah his policies will be destructive to this nation if they come to fruition. As Rome crumbled from the inside so will America. A slow destruction will have a greater impact than one attack from a deranged terrorist."

Also, I agree with the last comment you made fully.

It is consistent with what I said earlier.

"God's children are in His hands. He will take care of His children. He always has and always will."

We must pray for the soul of our nation.

Even if America crumbles to dust and nothing remains God will be sovereign over all things.

You know full well I did not call President-elect Obama a terrorist. I am sure that when you read my comment you knew exactly what I meant.

Of course, opportunity arose and you took it. Once you were not like that. I supported you in your stand on the issues of the IMB early on.(I still do) You told the truth.

What followed is a sad thing indeed. But you go on with it. Obviously you need it for some strange purpose. But it is a long way from holding "Southern Baptists accountable."

I think we're responsible for our comments before God Almighty. I know I've taken liberties with my own comments by, essentially, pretending God didn't notice what I said.

Such is the source of human pride and the Great Pretense of human kind not to mention of Lucifer himself: that God isn't watching, that he isn't involved, and that he doesn't care. Therefore--according to this fallacious reasoning--we're responsible for reforming the world and we inherit the right to judge--through God's deistic distance--those who don't take reformation as seriously as we do.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Our work as moral agents is in submission to the quiet, gentle tugging of the Holy Spirit both in our lives and in others. Can you imagine the Holy Spirit actually speaking your words, CB? Especially in an era when many of us believe the canon is closed and there are no confirming spiritual gifts?

I think Jesus's Kingdom parables offer insight into the mystery of subtle gradual change of the world through a one-person-at-a-time transformation. Necessarily, there will be some who are not transformed and some who are in the process of being transformed. The only kind of person that seems to be completely missing from our churches is the kind that has been certified as completing the transformation and conformation to the image of Christ Jesus.

For God's own reasons, the sin nature still impacts our lives. The transformation is not complete. None of us are righteous, still, no not one. We are covered in graceful righteousness--grace-covered glasses--not factual righteousness based on our own merit.

I have great hope that God will shine ever brighter when our hope flags. Perhaps we'll see God's hand more clearly in the next four (or eight) years than we observed it in previous administrations. That would indeed be a blessing of monumental import, and far greater than our earth-bound fear that God is no longer able to influence the hearts of kings and queens.

I think, though, that CB reintroduced a word that deserves our fullest consideration: idolatry. I'll offer that it is less about who we idolize than it is about the pride that gives us permission to idolize. The leaders of the Conservative Resurgence generally today show little self-restraint in this area, in my opinion.

I find it odd that CB would pick on "groupies" or Wade himself given the broad self-authority those leaders have often exercised. Wade's site is just a site and the posters here are only commenters. None has de jure authority. None really has much de facto authority (even Wade with his millions of readers.)

The leaders of the SBC have both kinds of authority and have squandered that authority on the trappings of power, on sitting in the honored places, and on weighing down people with regulations that they don't even lift a finger to help with.

And you complain about Wade? How has he become that kind of monster, exactly? Or is your fear that the politics you used to ensconce those leaders in leadership are available for every form of abuse by anyone in the SBC?

If that is your fear, then you are, CB, correct. We have cast off all restraint in our pursuit of power and authority while paying lip service to our Kingdom calling. It is both inimical and inherent in God's use of people to be his royal ambassadors. Yet, somehow, God persists in spite of us being a continuing source of disappointment. And he not only continues, but all signs indicate that his disappointment with us is for a season and his smile on us outweighs our sin.

Perhaps he has the same grace in store for us that he has in store for Obama and for our nation? Or, if not, then perhaps we have no hope at all?

You wrote, 'I am reminded that Christianity flourished under the dictatorial and persecutorial Roman Empire"

Something to think about is, that God USED structure of the Roman Empire to spread Chrisitanity throughout the Roman provinces. If Christianity had not found a place in the Roman Empire, the Faith may not have spread so rapidly in that time of limited travel and communication, throughout much of the 'civilized' world. :)

Maybe God uses what we see as stumbing-blocks in ways that we are not wise enough to understand at the moment? I think it must be true. L's

Pastor Tony,1. you said....I wonder if God brought Mr. Obama to power because we, as evangelical Christians (and Southern Baptists) have put too much faith in the Republican Party.

I did not notice anyone mentioning the republican party on this blog...I usually do vote with the republicans but that is because the "doctrine" (the party platform)is closer to a christian worldview then the Dems. I dont put my faith in the republican party!

2.You said...We are supposed to be identified by our first citizenship, that of the Kingdom of God. But for the last 20-25 years we have been more identified with Republicans. I long for the day when "evangelicals" are known for their passion and zeal for Jesus and Him crucified instead of their passion and zeal for the Republican party and her candidates.

Me.....We might disagree as to what the Kingdom of God is here...This is the same arguement that Cal Thomas made against Dr D.J.Kennedy and the Center for Reclaiming America. Ironically I dont see or here anything about an evangelism program like Evangelism Explosion that is in every country of the world;being developed by Cal Thomas. Its both the cultural mandate and the great comission. Thats Bible Theology.

3.You said....It is time to let go of the false notion that how we vote or who gets in office will make a difference in this nation. The only way we will see an improvement in this nation is when God's people humble themselves and pray and God moves His hand to save the people of this nation

Me.....Wow are you hyper-calvinist?You have not read Chronicles....dont forget the part of the verse that calls His people to turn from there wicked ways.Voting for Obama is wicked.

BTW-if you look at the map of the electoral votes,Most of the Red States were in the South. So my point is that most Southern Baptist probably did not vote for wickedness!

Some of what you said may have been worthy of contemplation, until you said,

"I will pray for President Elect Barack Hussain Obama."

Did you think we would miss that, or did you include Mr. Obama's middle name (incorrectly spelled, I think) on purpose? What was the point? A veiled-shot? If so, you didn't hide it very well.

I will gladly take your correction if I have wrongly understood your comment, but if you intend to pray for the president-elect with the spirit in which it appears you typed at least a portion of your comments - save your prayers.

1. You said, "I did not notice anyone mentioningthe republican party on this blog...I usually do vote with the republicans but that is because the "doctrine" (the party platform)is closer to a christian worldview then the Dems. I dont put my faith in the republican party!"

--Yet, you are so quick to jump on the fact that the opposing political party is "evil". Using your words, in our two-party system if you call one "evil" and the other "righteous" then you have put your faith in the righteous.

2.You said..."We might disagree as to what the Kingdom of God is here...This is the same arguement that Cal Thomas made against Dr D.J.Kennedy and the Center for Reclaiming America. Ironically I dont see or here anything about an evangelism program like Evangelism Explosion that is in every country of the world;being developed by Cal Thomas. Its both the cultural mandate and the great comission. Thats Bible Theology."

-- I'll admit that I am having great struggles with reconciling my US citizenship and my heavenly citizenship. I vote, because that is my duty, but I never doubt that God is in control and is bringing about His purpose through the government elections.

3.You said....Wow are you hyper-calvinist?You have not read Chronicles....dont forget the part of the verse that calls His people to turn from there wicked ways.Voting for Obama is wicked.

-- "Wicked?" I disagree with much of Mr. Obama's platform, but Nero was wicked and Mr. Obama won't come close to his wickedness.

BTW-if you look at the map of the electoral votes,Most of the Red States were in the South. So my point is that most Southern Baptist probably did notvote for wickedness!

-- And this is my point exactly. Those same Southern Baptists are bemoaning the end of the world as the OP said. Paul used his Roman citizenship when it benefited the Gospel the most. Not when it benefited him. Not when the idea was to bring back a false sense of morality.

--And here is my most radical thinking: I like the open immorality in the U.S. right now. It is so much easier to point to someone's life and show them how they violate God's laws. When there is a false sense of morality in the culture, people hide their sin better. Now, everything is out in the open. It is a great time to witness with the power of God's Word.

The point in using Obama's whole name was a poorly designed attempt to show that his middle name is not a scare tactic. It was accused by some during the election that anytime someone used Obama's middle name they were trying to stir up images of Taliban terrorist. My point (obviously failed) was to show that his name is just that his name and there are no scare tactic associated with it.

He is the first African American president in the United States. I am proud of our country in that we have come from slavery to segregation to now an African American sitting in the highest office in the land. I just wish it was an African American that wasn't arguably the most dangerous president ever elected.

BTW, if i misspelled his name or anything else in my post I do apologize. I can't draw a strait line with a ruler nor spell with spellchecker! :)

Have Christians been guilty of assuming that all Arabic peoples are 'terrorists'? The former King of Jordan, King Hussein, was a devoted friend of this country and of peace in the Middle East. Many fine Americans are of Arabic descent: both Muslims and Christians. I have members of my Church who are Lebanese Christians.

The 'hate' and prejudice shown towards these people is NOT Christian. It originates with Satan. It has no place on this blog or any other, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm proud to have a president-elect named 'Barack Hussein Obama'

That 'skinny kid' with the 'funny name' has a place in MY America, too. L's

Tom Parker,Please read Janet Porters piece in Worldnetdaily for my explanation of why voting for Obama is wicked.I stand by it.I would encourage you to Repent and to Turn from your wicked ways.That is if you voted for Obama!

You cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama by Janet Porter

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=79276

Poll after poll that I have seen indicates that vast majority of evangelicals voted for McCain.

In all the racial talk, there is one thing to remember: Obama's father was black, his mother was white. I know, in the old days, anyone even known to be (key idea here - known to be) was considered black. All the words denoting what proportion of their ancestors were black, mulatto, quadroon, etc. show this idea. Of course to some people, being of mixed race is worse. But one writer said, if you can't bring yourself to vote for a black man, vote for his half that's white.

How many of you think Jesus looked like your race? He probably, judging from some anthropological studies, looked like someone you might be afraid to sit next to on an airplane. So what? He became like us, human. That's it, human. Don't make any more of the specifics of that. We're all part of each other, race nationality, gender, political party even. The sooner we accept and treat each other as fellow humans, created and loved by God, the better.

Wade, your post is repsonsible, encouraging, and uplifting. I appreciate your words to your son. While watching the victory rally last night, I had a precious moment with my six year-old, discussing skin color. He said, "Some people have brown skin, and some have peach skin." We talked about how proud people, especially those with brown skin, were thrilled with the election of the first president with brown skin, and how great it is that is doesn't matter what color ones skin is, anybody could be president.He then announced his candidacy for 2048...We're gonna take the results and make the best of them...

ROBERT says 'Ironically I dont see or here anything about an evangelism program like Evangelism Explosion that is in every country of the world;being developed by Cal Thomas. Its both the cultural mandate and the great comission. Thats Bible Theology.'

Not in my Bible. Cal Thomas did not write my Bible. Wouldn't you rather follow Jesus?

Again I say that you owe CB Scott an apology. Your inuendo concerning his comments is inappropriate. Your hypocrisy is speaking so loud that we can't understand what you are trying to say.

As well, this statement greatly concerns me coming from a pastor in a SBC church:

"Barack Obama is our President, and the notion that he is worse for our nation than the man who masterminded 9/11 passes the boundary of Christian civility and moral decency."

Bin Laden will look like a modern day Cub Scout leader if Obama's views on abortion are the rule rather than the exception for the next 4 years. As a matter of fact, the war waged (and subsequent murder of) on the unborn will greatly out number the many killed in the terrorist attack of 9/11. That, Mr. Burleson, laughs in the face of christian civility and moral decency.

When the 'Christian Nation' comes, there will be no elections. Just a 'regent', supposedly appointed by 'god'. No one will will vote. There will be no freedom. No one will disagree with the 'leader'. You will have concentration camps and extermination for the 'unsaved'. The 'christian nation' has already got the playbook and it's not the Bible.

If you can show me a wicked way that I have in my life I will be glad to repent.Notice Iam talking about a public act not of a sin nature which we all have and need to continually be in confession to the Lord.

I notice you did not address the Janet Folger comment. Might want to research that a little!

Please identify yourself in terms of your location and your church affiliation. My sitemeter is showing that your IP address is coming from someone different than who you say you are, but I'm more than happy to be corrected.

Also, your comments regarding our next President are as almost as bad as CB's if that is possible.

This World won't end until after Christ's Millennial reign, which comes after the Tribulation, which occurs after the Man of sin is revealed, which occurs after The Church is caught out.This is the premillinialist viewof Scripture.

Even if you are A-millennial or Post Millennial, the election of O'Bama is not the end.God's people are the salt of the earth. Salt preserves. As long as we are here, the world won't end.

If you can show me a wicked way that I have in my life I will be glad to repent.'

RIM: do you equate your personal wisdom with 'Scripture'. Should we all be listening to YOU for our understanding of the Bible? When were YOU appointed the new 'Holy Spirit'? Your inability to understand this is not sin, it's just sad for all of us to witness.Some people would call your problem 'pride', I do not. I think you are suffering from the delusion that you alone are the voice of the Word. Very sad, but we will pray for you, as that is what we do around here.

Why is it that the majority of posters critical of CB's post insinuate racism? Could it be simply that CB is critical of the monster of abortion that pres elect Obama is in support of or maybe CB sees the writing on the wall of more and more sodomite unions? My question of the day is: When will Obama stand on the Temple Mount and pronounce himself god?

To an extent, CB Scott is right, probably not in the way he meant though. Bush is a greater threat to American Government than Bin Laden. Not because Bush will kill and demoralize people but because of this forced redistribution of wealth upward. I'm sure he means well (If he doesn't I will assume he does anyway) but that creates a dangerous precedent for the US.

The country survived 8 years or Reagan, it even survived 8 years of Bush/Cheney (though not well, if I may say so). To placate the Republicans among you, I'll say it survived - and even did well during - 8 years of Clinton. I don't think Obama can totally ruin it even if he tried to ruin it, which I don't think he plans to do, unlike previous ones who seemed only out for themselves and their kindred spirits.

Give him a chance. If you don't like what he does, work to vote him and others whose policies are like his out next time. But if you do, use reasoned arguments, not buzzwords, scare tactics, racism, and personal attacks like this time. (Not to mention sexism in the case of Hillary Clinton, though it's interesting how that tune changed when Sarah Palin was chosen.)

It's bad enough when people who make no claim one way or the other say racist things and spread weird rumors and lies. But when people do such and say it's the Christian way ... I'm trying to stop short of calling it taking the Lord's name in vain.

No person or political party is all good or all bad. America is not the Kingdom of Heaven, though it is good and I think we all want to keep the good and make it better. Let's try that for a change.

Wade,Since Tom and I were mostly talking to each other I will assume that "angry" judgement was directed to me.There you go again!Calling someone to repent is not anger; but something covenanted people should do. Its a body thing.

I can honestly say if I were a twenty year old young man who happened to walk into a church the first time in my life to hear the life changing Gospel for the first time in my life, and if I were to hear the hate and bitterness coming from this radical right wing of our society mainly in Southern Baptist and Evangelical churches, I would never join a Southern Baptist Church as I did some forty-eight years ago..." and they shall know us by our love..."

BTW, we Southern Baptist were saying in that election of 1960 that Senator John Kennedy would turn the decisions of the United States over to the Pope and would pass laws forbidding any kind of birth control. He would be the worst President America ever had.

All in my lifetime. Go back and read the the 1959 Baptist Messengers up until the election of November 1960. John Kennedy was running against Dick Nixon, he of Watergate fame.

The stream is becoming polluted with statements about race and temple mounts, don't you think?

Your groupies are interfering with your irenic righteousness and my, how did you say it? Oh, yeah "I can only conclude that you are either a coward or an evil man."

Now, Wade, that might not go over so well with Tom Parker who said to Robert Masters:

"How dare you speak to me that way!!Whether I voted for Obama or not is irrelevant, you have not right to call me or anyone else wicked."

Now Wade, we don't want to offend Tom here so I have an idea to offer you.

Why don't you close out anyone from this comment thread other than you and my cowardly, evil self and let's just go at our little war uninhibited by all these sidebars? What do you say?

Let's just get it all out here in the open, just you and me.

Then, later you can open up the comment thread to your groupies and all the nuts and flakes who gather here to be fed by your Irenic righteousness and I can go my own cowardly, evil way.

You see, Wade, I am really not interested in what these wild geese who flock to you, or agree with you or those few who may even agree with me have to say here.

This is a personal thing between us. Or at least it was on my part. I did most certainly attack you over on Peter's blog after your shameless attack on a fine young man like Thomas White. Guys like you and me are not fit to clean his boots, Wade. Shame on you.

Then you use your worn tactic and begin to email me. What was wrong with the public venue of blogs which you so greatly pride in? You didn't want to make it public did you, Wade? Because you know in your gut you were wrong to do what you did.

You also knew that Thomas would not debate you. He represents a seminary and has far too much at stake as he seeks to educate future pastors. But, you and I don't have anything else to forfeit do we, Wade? You gambled on attacking Thomas and I am calling your hand and that is all there is to it.

Oh, yeah, The funny thing about those emails of yours was the fact that you were copying them to other people.

But, of course, I know that confidence is not your strong suit, is it Wade?A lot of people know that don't they Wade?

Now what do you say? How about it? Just you and me, right here and right now. You opened up this ball when you attacked Thomas White for your own delusional purposes. I just called a dance on Peter's post, but I am more than willing to call several more right here if you so desire.

I told you not to threaten me, Wade. I told you not to try to bully me. I told you you should go home and take care of the things that are truly important in life and to leave this silly stuff alone. But you are so addicted to the stardom you desire, you just can't let it go.

You use people, Wade. So go ahead, use me. You will bask in the glory of the cheers of your groupies for weeks to come after we are finished and they rush to your aid to bathe you in their pity for the terrible attacks I will bring upon you.

Wade, they will make you immortal. And, I, your humble servant, will go away just glad I could help entrench your addiction even more if that is what you want.

Once again, we Christians are better known for what we are against than what we are for. Why can't we just put the rhetoric aside and get on with the gospel? Why would anyone deem it necessary to call President Elect Obama more dangerous than Bin Laden? God has shown throughout history that He is bigger than those He puts in authority and the advancement of His kingdom will not be thwarted. It's time Christians, starting with me, began to act like that.

Michael: 'because of this forced redistribution of wealth' you mentioned this as the reason that Obama will destroy govt as we know it? Well, I hope so. We need to see that workers are paid and that people have health care that is affordable: just simple dignity needs to be returned to the American people. For too long, the rich of our country have had a 'free ride' and now, we all may have a chance to benefit from the work we do. I hope the government as we know it becomes the government of the people again.

You hang around the Christian blog world long enough you will see true Christianity at work. Being a Christian is not about being perfect, it is about being forgiven for our sins and regenerated to love one another with a radical love. It's easy to love people that are nice, but Christ's love is about loving people that are mean. There are real Christians commenting here, and the evidence of it will be seen if you keep reading.

I went back and read Wade's post, and this is what he said about Dr. White.

I have met Dr. White just one time. He introduced himself to me in San Antonio prior to the 2007 Southern Baptist Convention. He was extremely polite and had sought me out after the Sunday morning service at Castle Hills Baptist Church, a service we both had attended to hear Dr. Frank Page preach. I have nothing but positive things to say about him, his personal charm, and his ability to communicate his views.

CB, the difference betweeen debating issues and shamelessly attacking people should be clear to you. Wade consistently does the former, and you evidently have hopped on the train of the latter (see your comment above).

When I was traveling through the book of Galatians in sermon preparation, I ran into some commentary from John Stott that caused me to reflect upon myself in relation to blogging.

Stott is commenting on Galatians 5:26 and I hope it will be a blessing to you guys [northern] and/or yaw [southern].

But even if it isn't, I hope it will help me in having to type it out.

"...when we are conceited, we tend to do one of two things; we either 'provoke' one another or 'envy' one another...If we regard ourselves as superior to other people we challenge them, for we want them to know and feel our superiority. If, on the other hand, we regard them as superior to us, we envy them...truly Christian relationships are governed not by rivalry but by service. The correct attitude to other people is not 'I'm better than you and I'll prove it', nor 'You're better than I and I resent it', but 'You are a person of importance in your own right (because God made you in His image and Christ died for you) and it is my joy and privilege to serve you'." --John Stott [The Message of Galatians: Pg. 156-157]

It seems to me there is a difference between addressing what someone says or a thing done and criticizing a person. For example, I may say someone has said "_________"about an issue and I believe that is a dangerous thing to say. That is my assessment of words spoken and I may be right or wrong in my assessment.

I could say someone did "____________" and I believe it was a wrong thing to do. It is my assessment of an action done. I may be right or wrong in that assessment.

But for me to say You are "_____________" [You fill in the blank with a negative thing] is to attack a person.

When I have done the latter, and I've done it far too often, I have usually found I'm flawed in myself and am too much in love with myself, and, thus, far too lenient with self-judgment to address it. So I often wind up attacking another person by pointing out they are flawed. By focusing my criticism on another it enables me to avoid scrutinizing myself carefully and critically. The key to recognizing this in myself is when I find myself saying to another "You are____________." [As I said, you fill in the blank negatively.]

My suggestion is to all...let's stop the "You are______" comments. [Unless they edify and uplift as a compliment.]

If I speak "you are _________" words they ought to be the same words Jesus says of those who name Jesus as Lord. He says those people are loved, accepted, forgiven, graced, family, friends, members of the Body, needed, special, treasure, and a ton of other things that are to be my assessment of people in Christ who are part of me.

Here is a good commentary on God and Government from CB at Marty Durens blog.

"LIFE RULES:1. Always place God above all.2. Always place your wife above yourself and all other people including your children.3. Always consider your children as gifts from God and care for them as such.4. Always treat other people with proper respect unless they bother your wife or children.5. Always keep your Bible read, your guns cleaned and loaded and your edged weapons sharp.6. Always keep all three of them close at hand for immediate use.

SURVIVAL RULES:1. Never trust anyone.2. Never be in any situation you cannot walk away from in fifteen minutes or less.3. Never show your hold card.4. Always negotiate from the strong position.5. If you find yourself in trouble, go back to rule number one. Chances are you have broken it.

TRUE WISDOM:A lifetime membership in the NRA is a good investment and a good insurance if the economy totally fails. You will need your guns. That is a fact.

ABSOLUTES:1. God, Guts and Guns made America great.2. Without God America will fall.3. Without Guts and Guns America will fall faster.

Robert: You actually think that is a good comment? Now I know why I probably disagree with you so often. I would totally disagree. Show me any scripture in the Bible that would agree with the don't trust anyone list or even the NRA list which it appears to me is to kill or maim someone with a gun for what? This reminds me of someone who is setting up to war in his own country against other Americans. It's extremist with no proof and nothing anyone should be a part of if there is an ounce of common sense in anyone. Show me where any of that reflects Christ or even puts Christ at the center.

I'm concerned that anyone would write this in private let alone publicly.

""LIFE RULES:1. Always place God above all.2. Always place your wife above yourself and all other people including your children.3. Always consider your children as gifts from God and care for them as such.4. Always treat other people with proper respect unless they bother your wife or children.5. Always keep your Bible read, your guns cleaned and loaded and your edged weapons sharp.6. Always keep all three of them close at hand for immediate use.

SURVIVAL RULES:1. Never trust anyone.2. Never be in any situation you cannot walk away from in fifteen minutes or less.3. Never show your hold card.4. Always negotiate from the strong position.5. If you find yourself in trouble, go back to rule number one. Chances are you have broken it."

WOW, thanks for the insight into the mind of the far-far right. I was okay with most of the first list, then things begin to fall apart fast: Very fearful and mis-trusting. All that fear! Where does that come from ? Who or what reinforces this fear? What are people like that afraid of? WHAT?I thought most Americans were a brave people. I know they are.Nothing wrong with keeping weapons responsibly, but the FEAR THING is truly weird and a little bit unstable. (Just my thoughts. )

Maybe, in this case, the guns serve as a crutch for a shaky manhood, if one is so fearful? Very strange, all this. Beyond cultural, for sure.

P.S. Something is beginning to synthesize: fearfulness and mean-spiritedness seem to be present in the same people.

Is the one causing the other?

If fear is a great problem, then the Bible can surely help these people with its messages of'Be not afraid' and 'Fear not'.:)

You quoted this: "ABSOLUTES:1. God, Guts and Guns made America great.2. Without God America will fall.3. Without Guts and Guns America will fall faster."

MY COMMENT: 1. Without God, there would be nothing, only a void, every breath we take is at the Will of God

2. GUTS or 'courage' is so very American, but it has nothing to do with GUNS

3. GUNS: they kill children

Courage is more than just not being afraid, it is a state of mind that lets people let go of their fear, because they believe in something greater than themselves. L's

Here is a story about one of the most courageous people I have ever read about:

QUOTE IS FROM REX RAY:"My uncle, Hez Ray, was a conscientious objector in World War II, but then there were no allowances made for that belief.

He was a strong man that could pull a bailing wire apart with his bare hands. At 85, he chopped down a three foot diameter tree with an axe.In hand-to-hand combat a large German drew his rifle back to run him through with his bayonet. Hez was standing at ‘attention’ with his rifle by his side. Their eyes locked and maybe the German saw ‘you can kill me, but I won’t kill you’ because he lowered his rifle and passed him by."

THAT is what courage is all about: the willingness to live and die for something greater than yourself. Very American :) L's

For further insight, I suggest that you all read this ABP article, Seminary leaders, employees give different accounts of car sale, which details C.B. Scott's 2004 termination from Southeastern Seminary by President Danny Aikin and Southeastern Trustee chair Tim Lewis's very public description of Scott as "an incredibly disturbed employee" with "some major emotional -- Let's just say major, major problems."

"When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 21 When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this."

Thank you. The middle-classes and the lower-classes in our 'classless' society have been permitted to glean from the bounty of the 'owners': the bosses, the stock-holders, the rich, and the powerful. But now, because of the economy, the crumbs will be few.

If Obama wishes to obey God's command in Deuteronomy, how can any Christian refuse?

The rich will be with us always. Must we always give them the bounty of our labor in tribute? We have done this, during the Bush regime. Obama wishes to level the playing-field in simple justice: he wants people to live in dignity and to benefit from their own labor.

So, as a 'gleaner', I ask other Christians to know this: all on the Earth is the Lord's. We own nothing. We earn our daily bread, but we thank HIM for it, as is right. The bread is earned, but first it was His to give to us. If I work my whole life and the money is taken from me in taxes, but my boss receives a tax-break, where is the justice?

George Bush said that he would leave office rich in memories: he was right about the 'rich' part. He and his cronies have benefitted as we, the majority have not.

I wish that, when he leaves office, Bush will let gleaners on to his lands in Texas. He must finally learn that not only the rich must eat.

Anon 9:02pm, I read that article, and C. B. Scott comes out OK in that article. I do not know CB, if the CB who posted in this post is the same CB in that article, then just from that article, I would say CB acted well and justly. At least to my reading, he comes out honorably.

I do not know what happened here. It would be nice when everything is settled down if CB and Pastor Wade had a lunch together and become Christian brothers. To me all this is avoided when one keeps their focus on Our Lord Jesus Christ and not on worldly affairs. I do this too and I have to remind myself often.

Voting is like marrying and crying and laughing and buying. We should do it, but only as if we were not doing it. That’s because “the present form of this world is passing away” and, in God’s eyes, “the time has grown very short.” Here’s the way Paul puts it:

The appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away. (1 Corinthians 7:29-31)

Let’s take these one at a time and compare them to voting.

1. “Let those who have wives live as though they had none.”This doesn’t mean move out of the house, don’t have sex, and don’t call her Honey. Earlier in this chapter Paul says, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights” (1 Corinthians 7:3). He also says to love her the way Christ loved the church, leading and providing and protecting (Ephesians 5:25-30). It means this: Marriage is momentary. It’s over at death, and there is no marriage in the resurrection. Wives and husbands are second priorities, not first. Christ is first. Marriage is for making much of him.

It means: If she is exquisitely desirable, beware of desiring her more than Christ. And if she is deeply disappointing, beware of being hurt too much. This is temporary—only a brief lifetime. Then comes the never-disappointing life which is life indeed.

So it is with voting. We should do it. But only as if we were not doing it. Its outcomes do not give us the greatest joy when they go our way, and they do not demoralize us when they don’t. Political life is for making much of Christ whether the world falls apart or holds together.

2. “Let those who mourn [do so] as though they were not mourning.”Christians mourn with real, deep, painful mourning, especially over losses—loss of those we love, loss of health, loss of a dream. These losses hurt. We cry when we are hurt. But we cry as though not crying. We mourn knowing we have not lost something so valuable we cannot rejoice in our mourning. Our losses do not incapacitate us. They do not blind us to the possibility of a fruitful future serving Christ. The Lord gives and takes away. But he remains blessed. And we remain hopeful in our mourning.

So it is with voting. There are losses. We mourn. But not as those who have no hope. We vote and we lose, or we vote and we win. In either case, we win or lose as if we were not winning or losing. Our expectations and frustrations are modest. The best this world can offer is short and small. The worst it can offer has been predicted in the book of Revelation. And no vote will hold it back. In the short run, Christians lose (Revelation 13:7). In the long run, we win (Revelation 21:4).

3. “Let those who rejoice [do so] as though they were not rejoicing.”Christians rejoice in health (James 5:13) and in sickness (James 1:2). There are a thousand good and perfect things that come down from God that call forth the feeling of happiness. Beautiful weather. Good friends who want to spend time with us. Delicious food and someone to share it with. A successful plan. A person helped by our efforts.

But none of these good and beautiful things can satisfy our soul. Even the best cannot replace what we were made for, namely, the full experience of the risen Christ (John 17:24). Even fellowship with him here is not the final and best gift. There is more of him to have after we die (Philippians 1:21-23)—and even more after the resurrection. The best experiences here are foretastes. The best sights of glory are through a mirror dimly. The joy that rises from these previews does not and should not rise to the level of the hope of glory. These pleasures will one day be as though they were not. So we rejoice remembering this joy is a foretaste, and will be replaced by a vastly better joy.

So it is with voting. There are joys. The very act of voting is a joyful statement that we are not under a tyrant. And there may be happy victories. But the best government we get is a foreshadowing. Peace and justice are approximated now. They will be perfect when Christ comes. So our joy is modest. Our triumphs are short-lived—and shot through with imperfection. So we vote as though not voting.

4. “Let those who buy [do so] as though they had no goods.”Let Christians keep on buying while this age lasts. Christianity is not withdrawal from business. We are involved, but as though not involved. Business simply does not have the weight in our hearts that it has for many. All our getting and all our having in this world is getting and having things that are not ultimately important. Our car, our house, our books, our computers, our heirlooms—we possess them with a loose grip. If they are taken away, we say that in a sense we did not have them. We are not here to possess. We are here to lay up treasures in heaven.

This world matters. But it is not ultimate. It is the stage for living in such a way to show that this world is not our God, but that Christ is our God. It is the stage for using the world to show that Christ is more precious than the world.

So it is with voting. We do not withdraw. We are involved—but as if not involved. Politics does not have ultimate weight for us. It is one more stage for acting out the truth that Christ, and not politics, is supreme.

5. “Let those who deal with the world [do so] as though they had no dealings with it.”Christians should deal with the world. This world is here to be used. Dealt with. There is no avoiding it. Not to deal with it is to deal with it that way. Not to weed your garden is to cultivate a weedy garden. Not to wear a coat in Minnesota is to freeze—to deal with the cold that way. Not to stop when the light is red is to spend your money on fines or hospital bills and deal with the world that way. We must deal with the world.

But as we deal with it, we don’t give it our fullest attention. We don’t ascribe to the world the greatest status. There are unseen things that are vastly more precious than the world. We use the world without offering it our whole soul. We may work with all our might when dealing with the world, but the full passions of our heart will be attached to something higher—Godward purposes. We use the world, but not as an end in itself. It is a means. We deal with the world in order to make much of Christ.

So it is with voting. We deal with the system. We deal with the news. We deal with the candidates. We deal with the issues. But we deal with it all as if not dealing with it. It does not have our fullest attention. It is not the great thing in our lives. Christ is. And Christ will be ruling over his people with perfect supremacy no matter who is elected and no matter what government stands or falls. So we vote as though not voting.

By all means vote. But remember: “The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever” (1 John 2:17).

Pastor John, I voted for the children who need help: The ones who are living and the ones not yet born, nor even yet conceived. I voted for the elderly whose pensions are gone now, and whose medical benefits vanished when their former companies chose to remove them.I voted for all the thousands of Americans without health care.I voted for our soldiers in the field, and when they come back to us, that they should be supported.I voted for public education for ALL children: so many cannot afford private or home-schooled educations. We must see that they, too, as American children, have a chance.I voted for the future, not for the past. I voted for a return to decency in how our government treats prisoners of war.I voted for a 'more perfect union' and for less division among us.I voted for what I think is right and just: a life with dignity for ALL Americans.

It is NOT good to walk away from our responsibilities towards others and to say that we 'don't have to help them' because 'good works' are meaningless.

Good works are NOT meaningless to the poor, the elderly, the sick, the children, the suffering in our society.

They, too, are Americans, and they, too, are important to God.

MARANATHA, but, until then, I will vote knowing that my vote was made sacred by the deaths of our soldiers who defended our freedom to vote. And, knowing that God sees if we care for His least. And He cares. If He did not care, then He would not be God.

1. As a women it is probably the best personal protection you can carry...good thing to pack heat.

2.My sister-in-laws parents were missionaries first in Sudan then in Kenya. Don was an official amunition tester for Remington. He has a lot of great stories about big game hunting . My sister- in-law is a great shot too. My point is that guns and ammo where a normal part of missionary life for them.

3. My uncle in Iowa was the deputy sheriff. One summer my aunt saw a man picking mirajuana.sp on the farm. She came up behind them with a loaded gun..needless to say they are not doing that today. Nice picture in the sioux city journal about not picking the stuff from the Deputy Sheriffs farm...btw it grews wild in northwest iowa.They have alot of guns ...I think it was over three hundred at last count. Does that make them extreme?

4. My younger brothers wife gave him a Browning for Christmas.An awesome gun. So smooth semi-automatic. I assume you would never do that for your husband!

I guess i just believe it natural like driving a car.Even my mother owns a gun or two.

I ask no quarter from you in any of this. I made the statements and will stand by them as you well knew I would before you ask about erasing anything.

We both know why you posted this post. We both know that most of the people reading your post do not know the background for this and you (as far too often in the last year) are exploiting that fact.

You know me and you know there are certain things I just won't do and you exploit that fact also.

I do think you have heard the "Five Rules of Survival" over dinner before and you know the context of that. (Now, I think I have shared these with you over dinner along with other brothers. If I am wrong I do apologize.)

Also, I think your position on gun control and ownership is much the same as mine so I will leave that alone. I definitely own those statements and that will never change. Although you know that most of that comment was a lark over on Marty's blog, but of course, you will never let these people know that.

I would like to address a couple of things here if I may and of course this is you blog and you can delete them if you wish.

First, I had hoped you would make this between the two of us, but you did not and that too is your right. I have only addressed one other person on this comment thread but I now find it necessary to address one more due to his making a comment relating to SEBTS.

Anony, You said:

" anonymous said...For further insight, I suggest that you all read this ABP article, Seminary leaders, employees give different accounts of car sale, which details C.B. Scott's 2004 termination from Southeastern Seminary by President Danny Aikin and Southeastern Trustee chair Tim Lewis's very public description of Scott as "an incredibly disturbed employee" with "some major emotional -- Let's just say major, major problems."

First, Anony I understand Wade allows anonymous commenters to comment here due to the fear missionaries have, for good reason, relating to their jobs. I commend him for that because he knows as do I that missionaries have suffered for telling the truth about the IMB.

But, I seriously doubt you are a missionary. You are simply a true coward for not owning your own words.

Now, to the content of your comment.

I hold Danny Akin in the highest regard. He is the best president of the best seminary in SBC life in my opinion. It is my opinion (I do not know for a fact on his part) that had we both to do some things over from 2004 we would. We cannot live that over. I hold no resentment toward him. As a matter of fact one of my sons upon graduating from military school intends to go to seminary to become a chaplain. It is my intention to take him to SEBTS and introduce him to Dr. Akin and the finest faculty for higher Christian education in the world. I will also pay his tuition with absolute confidence he is going to receive the best theological education in the world.

Tim Lewis made those statements about me out of ignorance and without ever having had a conversation with me in his life.Yet, in all fairness to him I must say he was told things that have now long been proven untrue.

After those statements from Tim were published two different law firms came to me and made offers to represent us in a law suit against SEBTS and collect enough money for us that if anything ever happened to me my wife would never have a need in life.

Even though my wife has MS I (we) told those folks I would never sue the seminary under any circumstances. To me it would be like slapping my Mother. It will never happen. This can all be verified by more than one witness.

I hold no ill will against Tim Lewis nor any other person related to SEBTS who is still there or has now left the seminary for what happened in March, 2004.

Anony, you speak of that which you do not know and you do it as a coward. And if Wade had the same "sand" I once knew him to have he would rebuke you for posting your comment because he well knows the truth of most all of what happened back there.(not all)

Wade, I ask you nothing for myself. We both know the true nature of our differences and we both know why you posted this post. Let it all stand and those with knowledge will see and know the truth. Frankly, they probably already do.

As for all these wild geese who flock to you, it does not really matter to me what they think or say about me. All of this stuff has been said before and worse and I, by the grace of God, am still standing.

Wade, again, I did not call President-elect Obama a terrorist. But you know that. I do have to hand it to you, Wade. You do know how to apply spin for your chosen audience.:-)

Again, I do not hate you (email reference). You know I supported you with strong conviction and action during the early days of the IMB situation. You did not lie about that and I will never change my position there.

In the last year or so you have most certainly strayed from the primary focus of what was once the basis of our relationship. I can no longer see anything you post about SBC life that does not smack of vendetta.

I cannot support you in that and just as I spoke for you once I must be just as vocal now against what you are doing. I would be a hypocrite and truly, as you said, a coward if I do not.

What you can erase if you want to erase something is the post about Thomas White.

You can erase the post about Peter Lumpkins and the "cornbread" statement. You really hurt some good people with that one, including (in my opinion) Dwight.

You can erase the post about Paige Patterson and the email relating to a Regenerate Church Membership. Far too much was at stake there, Wade for you to be dabbling where you were not invited.

There are others but this is getting too long for even the two of us.

In general, I ask you to stop using people for your vanity.

Now, I will, depart for now. And hopefully I will not have a reason to return to this blog that has become the haven to..... well you know the rest.

If we ever see each other again, I'll buy you a cup of coffee and we will discuss this face-to-face. Of course, we both will have to have witnesses. And you know, it really is a shame it has become so.

How refreshing! A person who defies labels. Well, they do say consistency is the hob-goblin of small minds. No one can accuse you of that.

An interesting mix. You certainly aren't lukewarm.

Why worry about someone saying you are NOT a Christian? Around here, people seem to have their own version of what that is. There's only One you need to worry about. So be happy and rejoice in your individuality.

I posted this post today because of your words regarding Barack Obama and a belief that they are ultimately harmful. To whatever extent I misunderstood your words that seemed to compare Barack Obama to Bin Laden I do sinceerely apologize. To whatever extent this post, if any, has caused you to back off such a comparison I am grateful. I look forward to the cup of coffee and the Spirit of God is witness enough for me!

To C.B. Scott, The glimpse into your situation with Akins and Patterson is like peering into Hell. What a frightening world. If that kind of stuff goes on in a seminary, how can anyone expect to find Christianity out in the world?

A free car given to an aide of Patterson. Then, the fall-out. Two people 'let go'. (These 'firings' are beginning to sound familiar in the SBC)A quick check for half the cost of the car as a donation, to cover up because people found out. And then, punishment for telling the truth.

Like looking into the mouth of Hell. You are deserving of some sympathy, if you have endured this trouble, no matter what your views about Obama. Christianity is not served when people are treated so.

Well, CB, you didn't ask, but for what it's worth, I'm going to give you my opinion of all that I've read on this post and the comments that followed.

First, when I read your comments about Barack Obama, I thought you had made a horrible mistake. All of us have foot in mouth disease every now and then, and I sensed you had blown it. But low and behold, you come on this site (the previous post) and boldly declare you stand by your statements.

Then, this blog calls you on the statements. People are shocked that you would say such a thing, and you begin to feel maybe a tad embarrassed.

So, you go after the person who calls you on what you said. You call him names, and you call those who are supportive of this blog "nuts and flakes", all because you yourself are embarrassed.

Then, as other commenters on this site, not Mr. Burleson, began to turn the heat up by not letting you shift blame or make excuses for your eggregious, even ludicrous statements, you get angry.

You go postal. You make comments that cause several people to express concern for your emotional state. I even called for a MEDIC because I thought you might have had a brain aneurysm.

Now, having come full circle you offer a lenghty explanation, once again, blaming Mr. Burleson for your problems rather than looking within.

Just a quick thought for your contemplation before I sign off. It is much easier to move forward in life when you learn to say the following sentence.

I was wrong. Please forgive me.

You ought to write that on the chalkboard a hundred times, and only then come back to this site.

Stephen, that part about: "Legalize prostitution? Not sold on this, but do believe the government should have no control over consenting adults"

Be aware that many women and girls are not prostitutes willingly. The victimization for many is reason alone to intervene: just a question of not punishing the 'victims' further. There is a lot of pain out there that most 'decent' people have no clue about. Christians, once made aware, can not look away, but must try to help, if they can.

CB, YOu are a very confusing man. My husband commented on this a while back when reading the Outpost. He thought you vacillated back and forth on Patterson in strange ways. And then out of no where you started berating Ben Cole over his information on Patterson.

Then to our surprise, when Ben signed off for good, he said that one reason he had made it all public is because CB Scott asked him too. (Perhaps he thought you would back him up?) Maybe the pressure was too great for you from within the SBC or maybe your son still works at SEBTS? I am not sure but for whatever reason, you initially wanted Pattersons shennanigans in the public eye but then started backing away and critisizing those you asked to make their personal info about Patterson known.

You seem conflicted. Perhaps this post is the best thing since it puts you back in good stead with the BI folks?

So, i guess you wanted a little bit of Patterson's unethical behavior known but not all of it?

BTW: Wade should keep the White SWBTS chapel message post up. His remarks were public and deserve to be discussed and debated. He is an employee of the SBC paid with our tithe dollars.

Ironically, in all of this, I share some of your sentiments about Obama. Does that mean I am still one of the flocking geese?

I'm amused that Christians read about Christ condemning the use of swords while in Gethsemane and then later encourage fellow Christians to keep their swords sharp for when America goes to Hell in a handbasket (as if America is who we trust in to protect us).

Maybe one day we will content ourselves with Kingdom work and not using our religion to legitimize the powers that Jesus undermined. Maybe one day we be thankful that we do not get what we deserve, but that God gives freely (I wonder if that could relate to resdistribution). Maybe one day we will take our responsibility as Children of God more seriously than we do our supposed duties as American citizens. Until that day comes, I'll pray for that day.

My daughter, 17, took a great interest in the presidential debates and the outcome of the election this year. She received text messages from other students the day before the election, telling her that the book of Revelation identifies Barack Obama as the Antichrist and so on. She asked me where the Scriptures said that the Antichrist would be a black man, and I explained to her that they did not. She then spent about two hours checking the Scriptures that these text messengers quoted, corrected the remarks, explained what the texts really said, and texted this to all of her friends. I was really proud of her desire to look at the Biblical passages herself, correct the errors, and send a positive message to her friends. She is always willing to engage in a discussion, and feels that people can differ in their views, however, she takes the misinterpretation of Scripture quite personally. I was very proud of her.

For CB, it looks like honor is very important to him. I do not know him at all. But reading this post and the previous post, that is my observation.

I am also discovering that what Pastor Wade practices is very hard for others to practice. Pastor Wade is good at separating the person and their actions. He questions the actions (and words) very rightly so, while still loving on that person. I will admit this is very hard to do. It is east to say it, but to practice it, you need persistence and patience. But again, lot of Christian values are like that. They are easy to say and expound, but in doing it and doing it daily is the difficult part.

One other thing I have discovered is, it's easy to do it, if one keeps their eyes on Our Lord Jesus Christ and not on the world. Leave the end results to God. Walk the walk with Jesus, and let everything else be. Do not fret over it.

I will admit, I have demonized PP and others, mainly because I was reacting emotionally to what was done for Sheri Klouda. I have not met PP or know anything about him personally other than through southern baptist blogs. Lot of it is not pleasant, as far as PP is concerned. This is probably because PP has had a hand in lot of the debates and discussions taking place on southern baptist blogs.

That is why, I find it so hard to love this man, PP. But Our Lord Jesus Christ commands us to do it. Here too, Pastor Wade is able to show his love to PP, but at the same time question his actions and words. For lot of people, they do not know how to do this. I think this explains in part, all the emotions and sparring taking place on the blogs.

I am also [re]discovering wisdom in God's Word. Lot of times, we rationalize and think our solutions or man[woman] made works will take care of the problems. I am discovering that as we walk in God's Word, the problems will take care of themselves.

Agreed....trust me - I only refer to free, consenting adults. As Christians, we must protect the innocent and exploited. BTW, one area where I might consider more government is in dealing with children's issue. There is no reason any child cannot receive immunizations in a rich country like our.

Wade, another great post!! Lets give Obama a chance....and get ready to vote Republican in 2010 Congressional elections.

When the 15th Amendment was ratified in 1870, the immediate beneficiaries were African American men in northern states. Prior to this, blacks were allowed to vote in only eight northern states. Earlier provisions in northern states, including Ohio, excluded black children from public schools. It was not until 1849 that Ohio allowed blacks to legally enter that state. Illinois also has an ugly history regarding African Americans. In the Illinois Territory, blacks were threatened with repeated beatings until they left. In 1847, the state of Illinois instituted a fine on blacks who sought permanent residency. Other states of the Old Northwest fell in line with codified discrimination. Indiana (1851 state constitution), Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin explicitly banned all African Americans from their states. It was also in these states that black men were prohibited from voting. New Jersey (1844) and Pennsylvania (1838) also disfranchised black males. Prior to 1865, over 90 percent of northern African Americans lived in states where the right of black men to vote was either denied or limited. Black northerners faced discrimination in all walks of life. They were banned from hotels, lecture halls, tavern, art exhibits, and some religious services. In 1841, a railroad in Massachusetts described it’s segregated cars as Jim Crow cars. In the 20th century, blacks continued to face discrimination in violent ways. In East St. Louis, Illinois, in 1917, 35 blacks were killed and many left homeless from a riot. Racial violence left 23 black people and 15 whites dead in Chicago in 1919. Of course, we cannot forget the hateful crowd that Dr. King faced in Chicago in the 1960s. Add to that the numerous incidents of white resistance to integration and busing in New York and especially Boston.Barack Obama has made history. Regardless of one’s politics, one should take pride in the fact that we have come a long way.

I would like to clarify one thing. In the previous post, CB had quoted to me that idolatry is a sin. And I agreed with him.

I am beginning to see the confusion that is in his mind and others.

If I say, I like and value what Pastor Wade is doing here, what I am saying is this ... I am seeing the characteristics of Our Lord Jesus Christ being reflected off of Pastor Wade by his words and actions. I see this reflection of Our Lord in other people too.

To me the source is always Our Lord Jesus Christ. What we agree and value in others actions and words, is the reflection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

"I am also discovering that what Pastor Wade practices is very hard for others to practice. Pastor Wade is good at separating the person and their actions. He questions the actions (and words) very rightly so, while still loving on that person. I will admit this is very hard to do. It is east to say it, but to practice it, you need persistence and patience. But again, lot of Christian values are like that. They are easy to say and expound, but in doing it and doing it daily is the difficult part."

Thy Peace, I agree with you about Wade. He gives to us an example of what it can mean to live our faith. His FAITH shines in his ability to see the Christ in others. I can see God's love expressed by Wade. Wade has been able to live his FAITH as shown in his charity towards those who reject him and his ideas:

Faith takes us beyond where our logic ends and leads us to a more peaceful world. This ia a place where our poor human logic gives way to the mysterious love of God and the humble UNCONDITIONAL love of our fellow man,

We can only go to that peaceful place with Jesus the Christ in our hearts. And there, the command to 'love thine enemy' is no longer beyond our reach. L's Gran

Beautiful, Wade. It was amazing to me how many people tried to pass along political opinion through my children during this election. Maybe it's because three of them are black, and some were "afraid" that we'd vote Obama just because of his skin color.

Well, I came out ... a Southern Baptist pastor's wife at the First Baptist Church in rural Oklahoma ... I gave my vote to Barack Obama. Not only do I not believe the world is coming to an end, but I believe God is absolutely okay with my vote.

And now I'm getting called all sorts of things - liberal, communist, socialist, stupid, watered-down Christian, dangerous, ignorant ... you name it.

I call myself a Follower of Jesus Christ, who is perfect. I used his guidance and his teachings to help me cast a vote for a man to do a very big job ... not become our new Messiah.

Interesting, I thought we were talking politically not just theologically.Who the president is and what his policies ultimately have no effect on Christianity. He may make it easier or harder to be Christian, but he will not change Christianity. In my experience, christian americans (especially biblebeltists) have a problem separating reverence for God and reverence for country.

This election is about class wars nothing else, the people that "have it" want to keep it and the people that "don't have it" want some of what the other people have. I get really irritated with this. If you want shares I would suggest buying some yourself they're not that expensive and it requires risk to actually make money on them. So if your adverse to risk, you will never be rich. try sharebuilder.com (I know it's a plug, but it's pertinent)

L’s,Thanks for the kind words about my Uncle, Hez Ray. I’m late on making a comment because yesterday was spent with a chainsaw, and by the time I read the comments and being 76, I was more than ready for bed.

In fairness, I’d like to portray another way to look at Hez willing to die rather than kill in World War I.

It was reported he was killed, but he got separated from his unit and almost died from mustard-gas.

That’s when my ‘young’ father joined to go ‘kill’ all the Germans, but the war ended before he was sent over.

Many of you probably don’t know how strong bailing wire is. When I was young, I could tie one end to something, the other to a hoe handle, and I can’t break it while pulling with my legs.

Hez could break one with his bare hands. He was equally as strong as my father who took on all challengers and never lost a wrestling match while an army chaplain in World War II.

One night, my father heard his assistance praying, “Lord, help ‘Chap’ beat Curly tomorrow.” Curly was a tough cowboy who said he would attend church if he couldn’t beat a sissy preacher. Later, he was saved.

L’s, my uncle saw this German kill Americans. What if your son was next in line after Hez?

In that light, I can become upset, but we are not to judge are we, and in this battle of C.B. vs. Wade, I have mixed emotions.

A ‘soft answer turns away wrath’ will never work if an acknowledgement of error is needed.

Wade,I read your post before any comments, and I was ready to do ‘battle’. Smile.

The general attitude of ‘what ever happens in this world is of God because God controls everything’, in my book, is plain stupid. That ‘mind-set’ would mean God wanted man to die in the Garden.

“If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over.” (Genesis 2:17 Contemporary English)

I believe ‘spiritual death’ was the ONLY death for eating the ‘apple’. Since Jesus took all the penalty, if there were TWO deaths, Christians would never die physical. We have the Holy Spirit, the same as Paul, to understand the Old Testament, and I believe Paul sometimes wrote his opinion (‘two deaths’) rather than God ‘holding his hand’.

God gives his permissive will for man to choose right or wrong. That applies to what you choose to eat to whether or not to say you’re wrong. (Ut-oh that ‘wrong part’ leaked in from reading comments.)

You said, “God has given us Barack Obama to be our President. He is called God’s servant in the Bible, and we trust that God will direct Him for the ultimate good of our nation to fulfill God’s purpose for our world.”

Hey! Would you say the same about Hitler? You spelled ‘him’ as “Him”. I thought that was only done for God.

The proper respect to show our leaders does not come from Paul, but from Jesus:

When they were brought before the High Priest, they were both struck in the mouth.

Paul reflects your attitude, “Oh! I didn’t know he was the high priest. The Scriptures do tell us not to speak evil about a leader of our people.” (Acts 23:5)

Jesus stood for truth by saying, “If I have spoken wrongly, give evidence about the wrong; but if rightly, why do you hit Me?” (John 18:23)

I’ll back Obama when I think he’s right, and disagree when I think he’s wrong.

I think Wade is pointing out that God gives authority to ALL rulers and the rulers are accountable--first and foremost--to God for their use of that authority. Jesus also said essentially that to Pilate.

I'd also offer for general consideration (not as a specific response to Rex) a pretty good op-ed by Cal Thomas. Cal's comments on the use of political power to accomplish spiritual ends has intrigued me for several years. At first I kind of disagreed, but now I mostly agree.

It is hard to believe the harsh things people will say to others about who they voted for. Name-calling never solves problems and leads to more problems.

I'm not there yet, but I'm really trying to listen to other people's viewpoints without getting into the name calling. I've been very quilty of this in the past and I have asked God to forgive me and to please help me from doing it again.

I really wish we could have open and honest debates about issues without fear of retribution.

From the Garden:The first guise of sin is shame.The second guise of sin is hiding.The third guise of sin is blame.

Our nature is to speak from shame, to shame, or both. Hide and seek is a game in life by which we try to hide behind our words, attitudes, and/or actions. Blaming others for our bad behavior goes back to the Garden.

It appears to me that some comments on this blog need to be move from the Garden to the Cross. Jesus took care of the shame, hiding, and blaming.

Salvation is through Christ not voting. There is no such thing as a Christian nation. Only Christian people who are citizens of a particular nation on earth. There is no such thing as a Christian vote. Only Christians who vote. The Kingdom of God is not political (secular or sacred).

The sovereignty of God is not fate but is faith that whatever is is within His control, power, and purpose.

Our relationship with one another is based on the Person of Christ not a political party or second and third tertiary doctrines. We don’t have to assume who each other voted for any more than we need to assume how each other prays in our individual private prayer life. We don’t need to reject each other based on who was voted for any more than we need to reject each other based on what the person was who baptized us.

To unite two analogies of Wade’s, Pruitt and Obama, the game film is reviewed after the game. Pruitt did something of his own accord and personal motives. He alone didn’t lose the game by his actions. There were ten other players on the field whose sole purpose was to tackle the opposition carrying the ball. Yet, he was willing to take ownership of his actions. It would be naive to assume that these actions were not pointed out to him, the whole team, and the public when the film was reviewed. It was a learning experience, a teaching point. If we are all on the same team-Christ’s- it doesn’t matter who you voted for, President Elect Barack Obama is now President of all Americans. The words and actions that each of us said or did in public during the campaign are now being reviewed in the after game film. The words and actions of Southern Baptist leaders, committees, and followers are being reviewed in the after game film. We are accountable to each other.

When our mistakes are pointed out by our team members we can either keep acting like we are in the Garden—shame, hide, blame or we can take it to the Cross—confess, repent, grow-up.

I voted for John McCain and wished he had won. He did not. Obama did and is our president elect.

Several thoughts which bless me.

1 - God is still on the throne2 - He was not surprised by this victory3 - It is possible God gave us what we needed or wanted, even if we do not admit it.4 - When all is said and done, it is my faithfulness I will stand accountable for, not for anybody else.5 - Words have meaning and when we speak, type or share them not everyone will interpret them the way we intended --- therefore grace is always the means to deal with others.

I know and understand that God is the One who raises kingdoms up and throws them down. He gives authority to governments wheather for good or evil. I will obey my government and pray for my leaders. What I don't understand however, is how an informed Christian can vote pro-abortion. Over 50,000,000 children have been sacrificed on the alter of choice and we seem to close a blind eye to it. One black preacher said that abortion was America's Darfur. It reminds me of the German's who supported the Nazi Party, they knew about the killing of the Jews but they looked the other way, it was done out of sight behind the walls of the concentration camps, the German people didn't see the bodies stacked up or hear the cries of the malnorished and tortured untill the country was burned to the ground and divided.

Please help me to understand with the Republicans being in power in the White House for so many years that abortions are still legal. I just have not seen more than talk about outlawing abortion by many of those in the Republican party, imo this horrible issue--that is that there is even 1 abortion--has been used for political advantage by far too many in the Republican party to only get elected.

Rex: Who is the God of the Bible in your view? Does the Bible teach us that God is inactive?

Farmer Bob: What makes a person a Christian? Doing or believing in Christ? The fact is that none of that matters now. Obama is the next President of the United States. I did not vote for him, but he is my President. Romans 13 also glares out at me.

Under the Bush administration partial birth abortion has been banned. The Republican Party has a pro-life platform, the Democrates have a pro-abortion platform. Of course, the Repulicans have not done enough but the Democrates won't do anything to curb abortion. In fact, if the Dems can get two more liberal judges on the Supream Court in the next 4 to 8 years, I will make a prediction that they will overturen the partial-birth abortion ban.

Another question? Has going out and yelling, condemning those who don't get why you aren't pro-choice done any good? Violence begets violence. Christ is the answer not politics and laws.Prayer is the answer. Evangelism. Loving those who don't see it the same way you do is what I see the Bible teaching. Sometimes being quiet.

For those of you who did not become a Christian until later in life, when did you begin to feel differently on things. When did the Bible begin to make sense and come alive for you?

Mr ParkerI would say that you have to be patient in politics. Its about incrementalism. Change one heart at a time. But Obama has committed to using law to force change away from pro-life gains through has promise to to sign the freedom of choice act.

You wrote: "L’s, my uncle saw this German kill Americans. What if your son was next in line after Hez?

In that light, I can become upset, but we are not to judge are we, and in this battle of C.B. vs. Wade, I have mixed emotions."

Well, I must admit, if the German was going to kill my Joel, he would have to kill me first. I am not so much a pacifist as an admirer of people with great courage: your uncle Hex was such a man. His beliefs were worth dying for, and he knew that. I would have defended my child and probably another's son, too. But I don't have your uncle's courage, I'm just your average Mom who would give her last dime and last drop of blood for her child. That's not courage, it's just the "Mom" thing.

When I wrote about your uncle, I was thinking that courage and using guns is not the same: your uncle came to mind at once. No better example for me to write about and, see how we contribute ideas one to the other, so thank you.

My courage has always risen when I believed strongly in something and was able to forget about my selfish self, and enter into the service of others. I am always pleasantly surprised when my shyness and reserve fade away and something rather wonderful takes its place, if only for a while. I bet a lot of people are like me. I need to find something bigger than myself, some meaningful work to bring out the best that I can be. Otherwise, I'm afraid I am not as strong as most people, and I frequently must call on the Good Lord for strength. L's

"I usually do vote with the republicans but that is because the "doctrine" (the party platform)is closer to a christian worldview then the Dems."

NOT THIS CHRISTIAN'S WORLD VIEW.NOT THE TORTURE OF PRISONERS.NOT THE ABUSE OF POWER.

'Christian world-view'? You've got to be KIDDING. Until the Republican Party repudiates torture as a Party, I will never support it again

Btw --whoever that anon person was ...can you show me in the republican platform where they support toture. Might want to read Chuch Colsons commentary on that on breakpoint...hint it wasnt pro-torture

It seems to me that abortion is a big reason that people say not to vote for Democrats. I want to ask you a question - if Roe vs. Wade was overturned tomorrow, and abortion controls went back to the states, how much difference would it really make? Girls in a state that outlawed abortion would find ways to get to another state that allowed it, they would find a sympathetic doctor who would do a "theraputic D & C", or worse, they would try a home remedy, or maybe even suicide.

Before you think I am pro-choice, let me say this clearly, I am pro-life. One of my best friends in high school had an abortion at the urging of her parents. She never recovered emotionally, and committed suicide at the age of 25.

I myself had a baby when I was unmarried at the age of 19. And the reason why I had her instead of aborting was I had a soft place to land - my parents helped me. And that's what makes the difference. If the girl has a soft place to land, and knows it, before she's pressured to abort the child. I think the pro-life fight can be won only one baby at a time - through places like Crisis Pregnancy Centers, through knowledge getting to young women about government programs to help single mothers, and such. Even public high schools can and sometimes do help with getting info about government programs. And the teen parent programs that are in many schools now have helped with cutting down the abortion rate. They have given girls a way to finish school, and tools to start working through the challenges of single parenthood.

I think that articles is full of false hoods. Sorry the one by Cal Thomas.

One example:

Does the secular left, when it holds power, persuade conservatives to live by their standards? Of course they do not. Why, then, would conservative Evangelicals expect people who do not share their worldview and view of God to accept their beliefs when they control government?

What is he talking about here?Has he never heard of the Gay Agenda or San Fran mayor Gavin "whether you like or not"Newsom.

or to quote a one of the commentors on Cals website.

Posted by Joel Mark, November 06, 2008 2:01:22Cal asked; "Does the secular left, when it holds power, persuade conservatives to live by their standards?" YES! Absolutely and by the tens of thousands. I see conservatives or potential conservatives caving to left-leaning and culture-couched influences all the time. In fact, the secular left is winning big time in this culture because too many conservatives are cowering in their religious corners. Power is persuasive to many, left and right. The secular left uses power to effectively persuade all types of people all the time.

Thank you Wade (once again) for a voice of reason in a "silly season". I hear the same foolishness from my church members and neighbors here in Alabama. It reeks of (at least) two attitudes:Latent racism: Instead of rejoicng with the African-American community (regardless of our poltical persuasion - listen to McCain' concession speech), we are distancing ourselves with this kind of talk. Do you think the detractors would be saying the same if Obama was a white man? I doubt it.Arrogance: What makes Americans think that God will use their President to fufill His plan? Though a great and blessed "empire", we are just one small instrument in God's hand. Americans should stop and think how such comments sound in the ears of citizens of other nations.

"I just want to know why abortion for many Christians seems to be a nonissue?"

Hi, I'm L's Gran. I do not believe in abortion. But I am old enough to remember a college acquaintance being butchered in the Caribbean in a back-alley abortion clinic. She had made a mistake. She panicked. And, she died.

In those days, abortions were not done in doctor's offices or clinics and many, many women chose to have an abortion 'other ways'.

So, banning legal abortions won't stop abortions. I know this.

BANNING LEGAL ABORTIONS WON'T STOP ABORTIONS.

Since Republicans have done next to nothing to make a more welcoming world for new life: I voted for Obama.

Talk is so cheap. People need to put their time, and effort, and money where their hearts are: to repair an unwelcoming society that sends young women, without the means to raise a child, into the waiting hands of abortionists.

If all some do about preventing abortion is to talk or vote, chances are, their hearts haven't been moved yet to do more.

This is a moral issue, a faith issue, an ethical issue.

If only ONE PERSON in the world stood up against abortions: that person should be working as hard as they can to make a better world for the unborn to come into. It is that kind of commitment that is needed by ALL people of faith.

The issue is how committed each of us is to what we believe in.

AND how much of our resources will we give to back up our beliefs. Each believer must decide for himself the strength of his commitment to life.

This is the issue that will separate the sheep from the goats: can you put your resources where your heart is? Or will you just talk and vote and then turn away. L's

"Why do you think John Mccain and Sarah Palin did not win the election?"

I was a bit surprised that more democrats did not view McCain as the true democrat in the race. His voting record has been closer to democrat party than republicans. He was not well liked by the base at all and had little support until Palin..which is why he chose her.

Everyone keeps talking about Roe but does anyone know what it would take to overturn that? That is only one problem in the democrat abortion rights platform. Obama was the point man for opposing the Born Alive bill not once but 2x. He listened to the testimonies of nurses talking about born alive infants being put in soiled laundry rooms and refused any medical care. He opposed giving them medical care and he took on the mission of garnering votes against doing just that. At the time he took this on, he was a professsing Christian attending Wright's church.

This is why I have huge concerns about Obama

Another concern is our paying for abortions in 3rd world countries. This was done by exec order under Clinton. It was revoked under Bush.

There is much more to this than Roe. There is funding for PP which advocates abortion. Let us look at how many abortions of african american babies there has been...which was one of the goals of Margaret Sanger an open Eugenistwho set up clinics in black neighborhoods. Yet, Obama has proclaimed his support for PP.

It is not just being 'pro life', it is much deeper than what has become cliches. How could he listen to the testimonies of those nurses and not be convicted of the evil to deny these babies medical care and perhaps even life?

RIM said, "Btw --whoever that anon person was ...can you show me in the republican platform where they support toture"

It never WAS in any platform. We will find out the EXTENT of involvement of Republicans when the WAR CRIMES TRIALS begin. I cant wait.Bush Administration was a great one for 'secrecy'. A trial is needed to find out the truth about who ordered this obscenity against our national honor.

Cal Thomas is a long-term conservative Christian participant in Washington politics and commentary. I read his position as that of someone who understands truth and proclaims it, but has realistic expectations for what you can accomplish through purely political means.

I can't answer for Mr. Thomas, but I suspect he'd respond to your example with this question:

"To what extent do you believe Wilberforce succeeded solely because of his political talents?"

I will offer that spiritual change can accompany political change. But the spiritual change must precede and underly the spiritual change in order for the political change to be authentic and sustainable. Wilberforce called for both kinds of changes, not just a change in law.

I also would offer that the situations you mention would be viewed as symptoms not causes from Thomas's viewpoint. From that comes the question "why does our culture reject our message?"

There is an obvious, simplistic response to that: sin and the pride that sin nurtures. But the deeper answer is more complex, and he is asking whether our certitude stands in the way of our commission? I think it often does.

We have to remember that the Law doesn't--never has and never will--save. Our national law is a mere echo of THE Law and its use in creating righteousness is even less than that of THE Law. The righteousness that is afforded us comes through a change of mind and change of heart, not through following laws.

Putting the expectation on our society that they must comply with this external expression--legal requirements--while ignoring the internal condition of their minds and hearts is to coerce them to a behavior that is not true. Perhaps there is some kind of goodness caused by the coercion, but Jesus's and Paul's separate arguments against legalizers suggest that there is no good that comes from legal coercion to do good. Our free will rebels against the coercion and, perhaps, is part of the hardening of the heart that God permits for those who do not trust in him.

I realize you're a Calvinist and you might reject the presupposition that we can harden people's hearts against God. I think that's a hyper-Calvinist position myself and I would offer that to the extent that there is a moment of mystery in the process of salvation, it probably surrounds this very subject of how our minds and hearts are transformed from rebellion to acceptance. And to the extent that there, indeed, is mystery in that process is the extent to which Thomas's article is relevant to the work of Southern Baptists.

Greg Harvey

P.S. Robert asked "Apa kabar hari ini" or how are you today (literally, 'what's the news today'?)

I answered "The news is very good". Because I believe Jesus is our savior (or, more accurately, the expert in peace), our news is continually very good." My Indonesian is probably as rusty as his, so forgive me if I didn't phrase it correctly!

“I will put My Law within them, and on their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they will be My people” – Jeremiah 31:33-34

All human beings have an innate sense of right and wrong, an innate sense of the way they ought to behave. This sense is called the natural, moral law. It is God’s law of right vs. wrong literally written on our hearts, woven into the very fabric of who we are.

Because human beings have free will, and can willingly choose to ignore and disobey this sense of the way they ought to behave, governments and laws are created by men. Governments and laws do not create right and wrong, they themselves are created in response to our sense of right and wrong.

These ideas were captured in the declaration of independence, “…That to secure these rights (not create them but protect them…secure them), Governments are instituted (created) among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

By rights, Thomas Jefferson is referring to experiences human beings ought to have, unencumbered by the ill will or mal-intent of other human beings, such as life, liberty, and the freedom to pursue happiness. These rights need to be protected because they can in fact be taken away. While your true, spiritual life and mind are eternal, your life on this earth can be ended “before your time”. Your liberty and freedom can be taken from you through imprisonment, among other things. To protect these rights, people have created governments, laws, and courts of law.

It is important to recognize that the governments, written laws, and courts that people create are but expressions of the real law that is written on our hearts. The real law that ensures liberty and justice for all is not found in a single law book or written constitution. THE REAL LAW IS WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS. Governments and written laws are but expressions of this law written on our hearts, expressions of this sense of the way we ought to behave.

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE LAWS: FIRST CHANGE THE HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE: THE ARC OF THE MORAL COMPASS OF THE WORLD BENDS TOWARDS JUSTICE.

You recently said: "Then, later you can open up the comment thread to your groupies and all the nuts and flakes who gather here to be fed by your Irenic righteousness and I can go my own cowardly, evil way."

What's your deal, man? If you have disagreements with people, that's fine. Our freedom to disagree and debate is to be celebrated! However, why must you label people like myself (and friends of mine) who enjoy reading this blog as "nuts and flakes?" I don't know who you are, but I sure wish you would refrain from this kind of condescending name-calling.

"Why do you think John Mccain and Sarah Palin did not win the election?"

EconomyOnce in a hundred years economic mess caused by "greedy" money lenders and the mess with the housing market. In ALL presidential elections, issues never matter that much. It's ALWAYS the state of economy.

Campaign Finance ReformObama smartly opted out of the federal matching funds. McCain did not see the consequences of staying in. This was a very, very serious mistake on his part.

"You actually believe that Obama was properly vetted and found to be qualified for President after 173 days in the Senate?"

NO, that was not discussed, but that was not the question, was it? The nation has spoken for the next four years.

Reference was to Sarah's difficulties concerning her former brother in law and the firing of a state official: she was not properly vetted to the satisfaction of voters prior to her choice as a candidate

Obama knows that he is President-Elect of a culturally divided nation and that he can expect precious little sympathy or support from the fringe of the right-wing. We shall see how he handles himself with ALL the challenges. It's the LUNATIC fringe, that is really worrisome, though, for many Americans who remember John, Martin, Bobby. The LUNATIC fringe will be given a LOT of encouragement by the positions of the fringe, but not collusive support from the fringe.

Pray for Sarah, she has been abandoned by the McCain people and she is very defensive in front of the press. Even Obama supporters are sympathetic to her plight. Her vulnerability here is visible, and one hates to see this mother of five exposed to such national voyeurism in her defeat. Painful.

McCain, I daresay, will survive intact, having survived MUCH worse than this defeat in his lifetime.He is and will remain, in everyone's eyes, a national hero, and rightly so.His legacy is secure.

The election bitterness and disappointment is palpable from many bloggers. This is perfectly natural and this is a good place to vent it, as everyone understands their disappointment.

One must remember that for many, the last eight years has been absolutely horrific to watch: especially older bloggers. What was meant to be hopeful for the conservatives turned into something unspeakable for many moderates and (is this word allowed?) liberals.

People who are disappointed today may now understand what others have felt for a long time. Honestly, things might probably get better for our country: can it now be much worse?

I, for one, am not a racist of any kind, but I am not celebrating because I don't think the right person won I am not even sure there was a right person running, but Obama and his latent liberalism/socialism will not be good for this country.

I have never considered race an issue- only the candidates views and his/her various bents and leanings.

For instance, I didn't think Palin was a good choice. McCain was simply pandering to Christians and conservatives by picking her because he knew his history didn't show enough of a conservative record. I am not sexist, I just don't think she was up to the job.

L's Gran (or Pastor Famer)- Banning murder or rape hasn't stopped murderers and rapists but we wouldn't consider legalizing either. What a silly (andtired and overused) argument that is! Obama sure won't do anything to help stop abortion. He wants it on demand! I am still at a loss for how anyone, let alone a Christian, can vote for someone who would advocate his daughter murdering her unborn child so she's not weighed down by it. Yes, standard-wise, this is a high moral and ethical issue that involves issues of the heart and Obama meets standard neither when it comes to this issue. You may think most politicians, including Bush, offer lip-service only, but I say that Bush, and other conservatives would veto any bill that would in any way make it easier to kill the unborn in a heartbeat. Obama can't wait to get into office and make it easier to kill babies.

President Bush and the other republicans should have done much more about abortion than they did. He had from 2000 to 2006 to make some really big changes in abortion, but I do not remember this happening.

I also have never heard were President-slect Obama would encourage any of his children to kill their unborn. Where did you get that one from?

Do you really believe--"Obama can't wait to get into office and make it easier to kill babies." Do you think that is his first priority?

I do not ever remember him saying that. Can you point me to where he said that because if he did, I believe I would have seen that plastered all over the TV's.

I personally believe the republicans found out that saying that were against abortion would get them elected and then did little to nothing to really change abortions. It is always easier to say something than to do something.

"I do not ever remember him saying that. Can you point me to where he said that because if he did, I believe I would have seen that plastered all over the TV's."

Did you not read my last comment? Do you really expect Obama to proclaim during a campaign when he is trying to run as a moderate and garner moderate votes that he believes in infanticide?

He committed himself to garnering votes to oppose giving medical care to born alive babies from bothched late term abortions that we being done at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Ill. He heard the testimonies from nurses and was not convicted of this evil. He plowed ahead with this mission opposing this not once but 2x. At the time he was a confessing Christian attending Wright's church. Wright was on the hospital's parent company board as have been other ministers and members of that church.

I understand that many want to ignore this. They want to explain it away with technicalities. The truth is that Obama is radical about abortion even wanting to oppose giving medical care to born alive infants of botched abortions. Obama called anyone who brought this out, liars. And the media ran with that instead of putting out the full story of his role in this during his time in the Ill legislature.

Did you really expect the media to plaster this all over the place when they agree with him?

I am stunned that any professing Christian would find his mission to oppose the born alive bills anything but barbaric.

This is not a big secret. You can do some research and read all about it. Don't wait for the mainstream media to inform you about their presidential pick.

"President Bush and the other republicans should have done much more about abortion than they did. He had from 2000 to 2006 to make some really big changes in abortion, but I do not remember this happening."

It may not seem like much but it is better than advocating to withhold medical care from born alive late term aborted babies:

Actually President Bush did do things to limit abortions. He signed an executive order prohibiting abortions in military hospitals. He also signed the partial-birth abortion ban into law. He gave us two Supreme Court judges in Alito and Roberts who might help overturn Roe v. Wade in the future.

As long as Roe is the law of the land, there is not much a President can do. President Bush was consistently pro-life in his eight years and I appreciate his stand for the unborn!

As for the Obama comment concerning his children, he did say that he didn't want his children to be burdened with a unwanted pregnancy. I guess we'll have to interpret what he meant by that.

Obama did tell Planned Parenthood back in July the first thing he would do is sign into law the "Freedom of Choice" Act which would allow abortions throughout all nine months of pregnancy. That he did say. Also, NARAL Pro-Choice America gave Obama a 100% rating on abortions issues and gave McCain 0%.

And which political party is more likely to provide help for potential parents? Not the Republicans, who voted against, vetoed legislation that sought to provide more medical care for poor children, who fought against the increase in the minimum wage, who cut aid to college students, etc.Laws won't do it. The rich can afford to travel to where they can get abortions. This study says that helping poor women find a way to take care of their children will do more than anything else.

That is my point. I do realize that 'good works' is not given much priority among the Christian far-right, being that it is not recognized as having any effect on one's salvation. I understand this and I respect that it is a sacred belief of many people. So this is not the problem.

HERE IS WHAT I AM FINDING OUT:Just a thought: Do far-right, conservative Christians have any idea how bad they look in the eyes of people who struggle in the world to make a difference? All the talk, with no action to back it up is taken as hypocritical.

I really can't explain this well but I wanted to share some of what I have heard in other circles: that the INACTION is so loud, that it drowns out the words of the far right. Where are the couples who line up to adopt handicapped, or sick children? The children are out there. Who is trying to save all those embryos not used in in vitro fertilization? They are living embryos and will be 'discarded' if not used. That means 'burned' as in 'holocaust' , if one believes that they have a soul from God at that stage of development.Who is willing to adopt a child of a different race? Who is active in repairing our broken world in a way that makes their argument against abortion credible?

I am simply supporting the idea of earning the respect of others by showing that you are willing to back up all that talk with some positive action: 'let your light shine before men' to the glory of God. People will pay attention.

Loudly condemning others never passed for Christianity in Jesus' time, or now. It's just noise.

If a person is doing all they can, and everyone can do SOMETHING, then their voice has moral weight with the world. People will take notice. They will begin to think you are sincere and listen to what you say. They may, by your example, change how they see things. That can be a victory for the unborn.

Curse the darkness and you are just a voice screaming in the dark. Easier to scream in the dark than to light a candle? For too many the answer is yes, and so they are thought to be insincere.

Words don't make it, unless backed up with commitment and responsible action to work toward change.

What can one person do? A lot. I have seen a friend slowly help a handicapped child drink some water. It took half an hour.

A person just has to decide in humility before God, to try. Pray and God will put into your path a way to help. And then, ask God's guidance and ask for His gift of strength to see it through. Your voice will then become a much stronger witness against abortion, BECAUSE YOU WILL NOW KNOW HOW MUCH YOU REALLY CARE. YOU will know. That's important.

The world needs to learn: hearing with the ears is not as effective as seeing with the eyes. Let them see you in action: that you care. Let them see with their eyes and you will touch their hearts. That is the beginning of real victory for the unborn. L's

You can't convince me Bush is pro-life. He vetoed health care for poor children. He started an unnecessary war. He has lowered health standards for workers, thus increasing their chances of illness and death from their work and the chances that they may carry home something that will adversely affect their children, born or unborn. I could go on, but some people will believe anyone who says they are pro-life, no matter what their actions prove.

Life does not begin at conception and end at birth, but some people seem to think so - they say they care about the unborn, but once they're born let them fend for themselves.

What good does it do to get a child born and then have them die from lack of health care or inadequate living conditions because their parents cannot afford any better?

"I think history will clearly remember President George W. Bush as one of the worst presidents ever. He claimed to be the great uniter, but proved himself to be the great divider."

The above statement sounds like a line right out of the Democrat's talking points. Let me tell you what kind of class our President has. He will make sure the transition between his administration and the Obama administration goes smoothly. Something that didn't happen with the Clinton administration. He has lead this nation through some of the most difficult times in America's history.

I have listened to dribble like what you posted and I kinda tired of it. We haven't been attacked since 9/11 and the Patriot Act that President Bush pushed for has made us safer. The terrorists know George W. Bush will come after them. He has proved it and he did not wait for another attack in this country before he acted. He has kept our country safe.

In spite of your doubts about President Bush being pro-life, check the scorecard from NARAL Pro-Choice America and see what score they give him. 0% is his score. What I gave you in the previous post was facts. If you choose to ignore them, then you prove my point about some people. "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up."

Finally, I'm proud of that fact that I voted for President George W. Bush twice. The liberal media spent seven and a half years trashing our President. Do you think they will even spend the next four trashing President Obama? I don't think so. I will do one thing democrats never did, and that is give our new President a chance to succeed!