Which event/fight/boss/whatever (that is somewhat similar in case) have you done that you like better? This is the only PvE content that even remotely felt thrilling, everything else, from questing to raiding feels comparatively dull (besides the fact that you can largely be carried through in non-solo content...IMO).

Does that sort of prove his point though. That you only feel this is so great because you feel everything else in the game sucks. Considering that most early victories of the encounter had you using a alchemy created potion it is proof that the encounter wasn't designed very well. I also think it is poor design to make use of the Demonic Gateway threat debuff in order to do the fight.

Its not really a warlock fight any more then any other dps fight is a warlock fight. The only thing that makes it special is enslaving the pit lord which is really there just to tank and heal us. Line of Sighting and keeping up aggro debuffs isn't really that fun of a fight. There could have been so many different ways of handling the encounter.

Instead of the a dps check with gimmicks to avoid threat or potions to remove the "soft enrage". They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

Does that sort of prove his point though. That you only feel this is so great because you feel everything else in the game sucks. Considering that most early victories of the encounter had you using a alchemy created potion it is proof that the encounter wasn't designed very well. I also think it is poor design to make use of the Demonic Gateway threat debuff in order to do the fight.

Its not really a warlock fight any more then any other dps fight is a warlock fight. The only thing that makes it special is enslaving the pit lord which is really there just to tank and heal us. Line of Sighting and keeping up aggro debuffs isn't really that fun of a fight. There could have been so many different ways of handling the encounter.

Instead of the a dps check with gimmicks to avoid threat or potions to remove the "soft enrage". They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.

No, I don't feel it proves his point, personally. In fact, part of what made it enjoyable for me was that there were so many things to use to accomplish the goal, rather than just beating on a colorful target dummy.

That being said, I do agreed with some of the points you made, (though it doesn't change how I feel this is better PvE content than 95% of the rest). If the encounter had even more of the stuff you mentioned toward the end there, I think that could also stand to be fun as well...things being how they are, I think they did well.

I don't like how I am forced to use a demon/pet that I will never use again, ever, anywhere in World of Warcraft.
I don't like how even though I am LOS'd I still get hit with stuff, yet cannot return fire. How come they can shoot through walls but I can't?
I don't like how the quest chain phases stuff such as the Black Temple raid so you can't enter it normally. Even after you finish it. Why would I ever want to fight the boss again after I got my green fire and completed the quest chain.

I like the concept of the fight. Beat this powerful guy and steal his powers.
I like the lore behind it.
I like that they actually made this big quest chain, and class specific at that. It's like the old Benediction/Anathema and Rhok'delar quest chains from Molten Core.

Last edited by Cernunnos; 2013-08-17 at 07:39 AM.

My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.

Does that sort of prove his point though. That you only feel this is so great because you feel everything else in the game sucks. Considering that most early victories of the encounter had you using a alchemy created potion it is proof that the encounter wasn't designed very well. I also think it is poor design to make use of the Demonic Gateway threat debuff in order to do the fight.

I'm gonna be blunt. My opinion is that a good chunk of the people praising this fight either lack the creative imagination to envision how this could've been done much better or are just so starved for anything that feels "different" to them that they'll take any crap sandwich handed to them and act like it's filet mignon. Of itself, I don't think it's a -bad- encounter, just inappropriate for the situation and, again, a poor example of a class-tailored fight. If this were a brawlers guild fight or a Razorgore/Razuvious type raid fight you never would've heard a peep out of me.

Its not really a warlock fight any more then any other dps fight is a warlock fight. The only thing that makes it special is enslaving the pit lord which is really there just to tank and heal us. Line of Sighting and keeping up aggro debuffs isn't really that fun of a fight. There could have been so many different ways of handling the encounter.

The encounter is 90% Pit Lord, between gambling on when you use the charge for the debuff or saving it for the interrupt, to having to essentially spam the breath because Kanrethad puts up debuffs faster than conventional means clear them to having to play stupid positional tricks with it to down the imps (especially as Aff, since the imp phase seems -purposely- designed to make SoC less effective) and handle the felhunters.

This is an awesome fight if it was about pet control and would be perfect if the quest was all about learning how to summon a pit lord. As a -warlock- fight, it's nothing special. I can think of no other class that couldn't do it with their own toolsets if you gave them a way to control the pit lord as well. THAT is my whole freakin' point.

Instead of the a dps check with gimmicks to avoid threat or potions to remove the "soft enrage". They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.

Different phases could've required the use of different stock demons. A special reaction to fear. The chamber filling with gas. Him (or adds that have to be located) turning invisible. A drain life phase. There are SO many other things that could've been done.

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

I don't like how I am forced to use a demon/pet that I will never use again, ever, anywhere in World of Warcraft.

I really, really don't understand why so few people seem to have a problem with this.

The problem with what you are doing here szarala is that you are trying to maintain the last encounter is bad, 99% of people disagree with you because it does give some challenge to players which you really dont get anywhere else in wow atm (maybe heroic raiding when you are undergeared but that soon ends).

Ye a lot of the encounter is pet control, its something that i am glad blizzard done because in choosing this class you are opting into 'having a pet' if you suck at pet control for w/e reason then go practice the encounter a bit and it may come to you a bit more naturally.

But dont come here and tell people that its a badly designed encounter, they made it feel extremely warlock themed and thats the important part, not which class's could do it with there current toolkit, seen as all the class's are practically immortal in solo content now.

what you are saying about the encounter's mechanics is outright wrong Szarala. there is really no RNG involved when you are playing it correctly, no gambling whatsoever. this strengthens me in what I said before, pretty sure you can't beat the encounter yourself and are bitter now that blizzard made an "unfair" encounter and turn this frustration into "but blizzard is stupid anyway" arguments now.
also, if you make it out like you do, then of course it's not a warlock specific encounter. you can drag that even further by saying "lol you need a stun? all classes have stuns! you need dots? lol shadow priests totally have dots". it's just a stupid way to put it though.
again, why is it that for over 10 pages different people told you that they liked the encounter and think it's a decent test of warlock skills and you keep arguing against it? is there a point where you will see that you are in the wrong, or will you keep this up for another 20 pages?

Ye a lot of the encounter is pet control, its something that i am glad blizzard done because in choosing this class you are opting into 'having a pet' if you suck at pet control for w/e reason then go practice the encounter a bit and it may come to you a bit more naturally.

Yanno, I originally rolled way back at launch because when deciding on a class, under warlock the description was about a dark support class that happened to have demons. Sounded good to me. Yeah, things change (the whole "support class" bit went out the window almost immediately), but really pets haven't felt like a positive addition to the class since Wrath. If anything they're an extra hassle to me; an attention tax for having the gall to play a warlock. I lost interest in warlock (and by extension, WoW itself) shortly after Cata launched and when a friend suggested I give it another chance for MoP, I was -ecstatic- to see things like GoSac and KJC, as they made the class actually fun for me to play again.

The problem with what you are doing here szarala is that you are trying to maintain the last encounter is bad, 99% of people disagree with you because it does give some challenge to players which you really dont get anywhere else in wow atm (maybe heroic raiding when you are undergeared but that soon ends).

"Something I can actually wipe on a hundred times! Finally! WHOO!" Not my idea of fun. I get that some people DO like that. That's not my beef. I don't like that this type of encounter culminates this particular questline and I think the encounter itself is "challenging" for the wrong reasons and in ways that make the encounter itself, pass or fail, an extremely un-enjoyable experience. This is a personal opinion and others DO like this sort of thing. Again though, this isn't the argument.

But dont come here and tell people that its a badly designed encounter, they made it feel extremely warlock themed and thats the important part, not which class's could do it with there current toolkit, seen as all the class's are practically immortal in solo content now.

OK, instead of a pit lord it's an earth elemental. The encounter is now shaman themed. Or an undead.. it's now DK themed. Or a giant boar.. hunter themed now. Or...

I don't like how the quest chain phases stuff such as the Black Temple raid so you can't enter it normally. Even after you finish it. Why would I ever want to fight the boss again after I got my green fire and completed the quest chain.

you enter the black temple raid at a crack in the wall to the right, not the main entrance

again, why is it that for over 10 pages different people told you that they liked the encounter and think it's a decent test of warlock skills and you keep arguing against it? is there a point where you will see that you are in the wrong, or will you keep this up for another 20 pages?

This is where you and others keep losing any credibility. Just because a lot of people think something doesn't make them inherently correct. If every warlock guide said for you to take a succubus for top dps, but the fel hunter actually gives top dps, who would be correct? The one who goes with the Majority, or the one who goes with the minority?

Is it a challenge? Yes. Is it a test of warlock skills? Not really because it is a debuff, aggro, and LoS fight. Those aren't warlock skills but general raiding skills. It could have been so much more then a warlock themed raid skill check. If I wanted that I'd go do Heroic Modes where they are actual challenges. The only real challenge in this fight though is if you use the right gimmick at the right time.

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

People are really, really over-thinking and over-analyzing this fight. It's not meant to be the pinnacle of the Warlock experience, nor is it the ultimate, perfectly designed test to deem someone worthy of being a Warlock.

It's just an encounter designed to add a measure of difficulty to a permanent, long sought-after cosmetic effect.

I think it's time to step away and take a break, instead of letting frustration get a hold of your thoughts and feelings.

People are really, really over-thinking and over-analyzing this fight. It's not meant to be the pinnacle of the Warlock experience, nor is it the ultimate, perfectly designed test to deem someone worthy of being a Warlock.

It's just an encounter designed to add a measure of difficulty to a permanent, long sought-after cosmetic effect.

I think it's time to step away and take a break, instead of letting frustration get a hold of your thoughts and feelings.

Except we have imps, doomguards, chaos bolt, cataclysm, felhunters, pit lord, big fuck off green demon, shit tons of room for clever use of mechanics, its warlock themed, stop thinking like an idiot and honestly quit complaining about it and get good enough to do it.

People are really, really over-thinking and over-analyzing this fight. It's not meant to be the pinnacle of the Warlock experience, nor is it the ultimate, perfectly designed test to deem someone worthy of being a Warlock.

They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.

Well, but you do use Eye of Kilrogg earlier in the quest chain. I think they played on most of our abilities throughout the chain.

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Originally Posted by Bawl

I actually agree that it's not all that special of a fight.

Sure it's warlock specific, but in the most superficial way possible. It's like the boss is all "Watch as I use this amazing ability... that you just happen to have the perfect counter to." I didn't find anything about it challenging from a how-to-approach-it perspective. I knew exactly how to counter every ability after seeing it once and maybe reading the tooltip. It was all a matter of hitting my buttons in the right order and cobbling together a few macros. I killed it after about 8 pulls, by which time I had the timing down as to be able to anticipate everything as it came.

I'm not hating on the fight and I don't have an answer for how to design a better class specific encounter, but I didn't find it to be anything special in the least. The best I can say is that at least it seemed to be more or less bug free and fairly well tuned (granted I didn't bother with it until recently so I don't know how it was when it was first release but I hear it had some issues).

Well, if you're a raider and you've got an ilvl of 500+ then sure it isn't that difficult and you should be able to complete it after seeing the different abilties and giving it a few tries. But the lower your ilvl, the more challenging it becomes. The lower your ilvl, the more strictly you need to pay attention to abilities and rotate them wisely, the gap for error becomes much much smaller.

I think it can be completed with ilvl 460 as well, but it would be quite hard. Also, someone stated it has been completed in ilvl 380 gear... I just don't believe it. You can't DPS down the Imps or Felhunters fast enough with that kind of gear. Can anyone back this up? Because I would like to see it.

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Originally Posted by Szarala

once again, louder for those in the back, it's not about me liking it. It's about people calling it the ultimate warlock encounter, which I take issue with.

Well, then what is the ultimate Warlock encounter in your opinion? I can't recall anything better. The epic mount quest back in the day was no way near as challenging as this.