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I'd seen The Prestige a few times. Loved it. Didn't put much thought into it beyond the theme of obsession and stuff. But a friend of mine had recently rewatched it and asked me how many magicians I thought there were. I told him a lot, because of the replicants. He told me, "Nope, there're no replicants. Watch it again with that in mind, and you'll see why I now think this is Nolan's best film by far."

So I did. Holy shit, the movie played us for fools. There are no replicants. If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, watch it again with that in mind.

So we agreed on pretty much everything in the third act. But it seems he, for some reason, thinks that Bowie's character wasn't the real Tesla. He says that that's a con man Bale's character hired. I can't see how that's in any way necessary or important to the story. For some reason my friend thinks that that's more plausible than what my theory states, that it was Tesla. Borden just called ahead and told Tesla to pretend to build the machine and put on a show for Angier so he can take his money, which he desperately needed for his projects, as Tesla is well known to have been pretty poor. I mean, seriously, that makes a fuckload of more sense than the idea that he's not really Tesla. I mean, all Angier had to go on was that scrap of paper that said "Tesla" on it. How could Borden think that Angier would find the fake Tesla instead of the real one? My friend says the fake address must've been in he notebook, but that's dumb. How could he think he would decrypt the fake address in time? Borden obviously assumed Angier wouldn't decrypt the whole notebook before going to the US, otherwise he wouldn't have given it away at the end of it that the notebook was fake.

Anyway, now I'm reading the book to find some clarity in that debate, and to see if it pulls the same mindfuck the film did. I hope it does.

Wait, what?

Is a replicant a copy of Angier? So the theory is, there were never any copies/clone? What about when you see Angier shoot the first one? Or was that not actually happening?

I didn't actually remember to think about this before watching the movie. So I'm just pretended I did. I guess the no copy thing makes sense since in the end, it's implied all those tanks are full of Wolverines (I'm sorry but I just watched this movie and I talked a lot during it and my friend and I kept calling them Batman and Wolverine (I know, we're probably the first to make that joke) and it's hard to think of them as anything else now) but they only ever show the one. But the cops (or doctors) had his body on a table being IDed by Cutter. BUT are you saying that because the timeline of the story is all crazy, the last scene isn't really the last scene chronologically? BUT there were witnesses to his drowning!

I don't know. I feel like I'm misunderstanding whatever you were talking about. Because otherwise, this theory sucks.

That scene where he shot the replicant was my argument against the theory, too. But that scene was when he was telling the story of how the machine worked at the very end. That last scene was Angier's (Wolverine's) final performance, trying to create the illusion for Borton (Batman) that the machine actually worked, so yeah, that shooting scene never happened. That's why he set up the scene at the end with Cutter's (Alfred's) help, Cutter being good at dressing up people (in this case corpses, which was hinted at by Angier saying "Nobody cares about the man inside the box," as in "coffin") as he did with the double, who, by the way, was Angier's double during the actual act, until he finally killed him by putting the tank under the stage during his final performance after seeing Borton come up as a volunteer, which is why the double looked so fucking surprised while he was in the tank. It was him on the slab. It was revenge for fucking with Angier the first time around.

Angier's illusion was simply better than Borton's at making it seem like the machine worked. It was a trick on us just as it was for Borton.

It all fits. I made sure by watching it twice more. I still haven't read the friggin' book, though. I gotta get around to that soon.

Cutter being good at dressing up people (in this case corpses, which was hinted at by Angier saying "Nobody cares about the man inside the box," as in "coffin") as he did with the double, who, by the way, was Angier's double during the actual act, until he finally killed him by putting the tank under the stage during his final performance after seeing Borton come up as a volunteer, which is why the double looked so fucking surprised while he was in the tank. It was him on the slab. It was revenge for fucking with Angier the first time around.

Ohhhh, this is the part I didn't get. I knew it would be something obvious.

Liberum69 wrote:

That scene where he shot the replicant was my argument against the theory, too. But that scene was when he was telling the story of how the machine worked at the very end. That last scene was Angier's (Wolverine's) final performance, trying to create the illusion for Borton (Batman) that the machine actually worked, so yeah, that shooting scene never happened. That's why he set up the scene at the end with Cutter's (Alfred's) help, Cutter being good at dressing up people (in this case corpses, which was hinted at by Angier saying "Nobody cares about the man inside the box," as in "coffin") as he did with the double, who, by the way, was Angier's double during the actual act, until he finally killed him by putting the tank under the stage during his final performance after seeing Borton come up as a volunteer, which is why the double looked so fucking surprised while he was in the tank. It was him on the slab. It was revenge for fucking with Angier the first time around.

Angier's illusion was simply better than Borton's at making it seem like the machine worked. It was a trick on us just as it was for Borton.

It all fits. I made sure by watching it twice more. I still haven't read the friggin' book, though. I gotta get around to that soon.

Okay, that is a cool theory. But why wouldn't Borton have known it was a double? He figured it out easily enough before. We're chalking this up to Cutter's make up getting... better... and maybe the drunk getting his shit together a bit? Borton went up on stage to look at the machine up close, I can't believe that he wouldn't have noticed it wasn't really Angier up there. And at the end, Angier pops up really close to where he was sitting. I don't remember if he spoke much. I want to believe this because it's a really neat idea but I can't understand why Borton, who saw through their shtick "from the back row" earlier, wouldn't have instantly known it was still the SAME double.

Was Angier's thing a long con as well? Did they pretend to do their best earlier when really they half-assed it, giving Borton confidence, just so later when they went all out, he'd overlook the most obvious answer... the same way Angier did? So Borton lived a half life in his dedication to his act... and Borton PRETENDED to be a worse magician his entire life?

I didn't think the double (or actual Angier) looked surprised... I thought he looked terrified because even if you know it's going to happen, dying probably sucks and I could understand having some second thoughts at the last minute. It made sense that he would beg for help.

Is that it or do you have something better? Because I still don't really like that and think the many replicant idea still makes more sense.

Okay, that is a cool theory. But why wouldn't Borton have known it was a double? He figured it out easily enough before. We're chalking this up to Cutter's make up getting... better... and maybe the drunk getting his shit together a bit? Borton went up on stage to look at the machine up close, I can't believe that he wouldn't have noticed it wasn't really Angier up there. And at the end, Angier pops up really close to where he was sitting. I don't remember if he spoke much. I want to believe this because it's a really neat idea but I can't understand why Borton, who saw through their shtick "from the back row" earlier, wouldn't have instantly known it was still the SAME double.

Angier decided that if he was gonna get Borton, he had to really devote time into the double and make him perfect. If you notice, the double comes out on the balcony so Borton can't really see him well enough to make the distinction. They switched when Borton was convinced it was Angier at least before the prestige, so Borton wouldn't notice it wasn't him in the final performance.

labelleza wrote:

Was Angier's thing a long con as well? Did they pretend to do their best earlier when really they half-assed it, giving Borton confidence, just so later when they went all out, he'd overlook the most obvious answer... the same way Angier did? So Borton lived a half life in his dedication to his act... and Borton PRETENDED to be a worse magician his entire life?

Nah. I'd say that Angier only got frustrated and realized Borton had to have used a double all along. So he wound up doing the same thing, but much better this time around.

labelleza wrote:

I didn't think the double (or actual Angier) looked surprised... I thought he looked terrified because even if you know it's going to happen, dying probably sucks and I could understand having some second thoughts at the last minute. It made sense that he would beg for help.

Oh he definitely looked surprised, then terrified. If you notice, the double was looking around as if he had no idea where he was for awhile before he saw Borton and started screaming.

labelleza wrote:

Is that it or do you have something better? Because I still don't really like that and think the many replicant idea still makes more sense.

That's the trick. There're two stories, but the underlying story is hidden and hinted at, just like an illusion. You could believe the trick was magic, or you can figure out how it was really done. "You're not really looking. You want to be fooled." That was the point of that last statement as the camera panned to the Angier-in-a-box.

Okay, that is a cool theory. But why wouldn't Borton have known it was a double? He figured it out easily enough before. We're chalking this up to Cutter's make up getting... better... and maybe the drunk getting his shit together a bit? Borton went up on stage to look at the machine up close, I can't believe that he wouldn't have noticed it wasn't really Angier up there. And at the end, Angier pops up really close to where he was sitting. I don't remember if he spoke much. I want to believe this because it's a really neat idea but I can't understand why Borton, who saw through their shtick "from the back row" earlier, wouldn't have instantly known it was still the SAME double.

Angier decided that if he was gonna get Borton, he had to really devote time into the double and make him perfect. If you notice, the double comes out on the balcony so Borton can't really see him well enough to make the distinction. They switched when Borton was convinced it was Angier at least before the prestige, so Borton wouldn't notice it wasn't him in the final performance.

labelleza wrote:

Was Angier's thing a long con as well? Did they pretend to do their best earlier when really they half-assed it, giving Borton confidence, just so later when they went all out, he'd overlook the most obvious answer... the same way Angier did? So Borton lived a half life in his dedication to his act... and Borton PRETENDED to be a worse magician his entire life?

Nah. I'd say that Angier only got frustrated and realized Borton had to have used a double all along. So he wound up doing the same thing, but much better this time around.

labelleza wrote:

I didn't think the double (or actual Angier) looked surprised... I thought he looked terrified because even if you know it's going to happen, dying probably sucks and I could understand having some second thoughts at the last minute. It made sense that he would beg for help.

Oh he definitely looked surprised, then terrified. If you notice, the double was looking around as if he had no idea where he was for awhile before he saw Borton and started screaming.

labelleza wrote:

Is that it or do you have something better? Because I still don't really like that and think the many replicant idea still makes more sense.

That's the trick. There're two stories, but the underlying story is hidden and hinted at, just like an illusion. You could believe the trick was magic, or you can figure out how it was really done. "You're not really looking. You want to be fooled." That was the point of that last statement as the camera panned to the Angier-in-a-box.

I still don't really buy that Borton wouldn't have known it was two different men. It's... too easy. Yeah, yeah, I know he literally says that about Borton's trick.

I wouldn't doubt that the Nolans would do something like that. This just seems like coincidence to me though.

I still don't really buy that Borton wouldn't have known it was two different men. It's... too easy. Yeah, yeah, I know he literally says that about Borton's trick.

I wouldn't doubt that the Nolans would do something like that. This just seems like coincidence to me though.

But hey, thanks for forcing me to watch the movie again!

You're welcome!

I totally buy it. Borton's critiques about the double were that he was slightly overweight and drunk. Easily fixed, especially with the placement of the double on the balcony.

It's just too big of a coincidence for me. The point behind it is brilliantly relevant. The only tiny doubt I have about it is the shooting scene, where Angier shoots his clone. But the fact that they didn't show that until Angier was telling his story was too perfect.

Also we're hardly the first people to stumble upon the theory. After I mapped the whole thing out, I looked it up to see if anyone else came up with it, and yeah, quite a few people, and one person came up with a closely perfect match with mine. He makes a few unnecessary assumptions, but whatevs. His was far more detailed, regardless.

In any case, even if the Nolans didn't do it on purpose, that doesn't mean it's not true for me. The movie's so much better with the theory.

I totally buy it. Borton's critiques about the double were that he was slightly overweight and drunk. Easily fixed, especially with the placement of the double on the balcony.

It's just too big of a coincidence for me. The point behind it is brilliantly relevant. The only tiny doubt I have about it is the shooting scene, where Angier shoots his clone. But the fact that they didn't show that until Angier was telling his story was too perfect.

Also we're hardly the first people to stumble upon the theory. After I mapped the whole thing out, I looked it up to see if anyone else came up with it, and yeah, quite a few people, and one person came up with a closely perfect match with mine. He makes a few unnecessary assumptions, but whatevs. His was far more detailed, regardless.

In any case, even if the Nolans didn't do it on purpose, that doesn't mean it's not true for me. The movie's so much better with the theory.

I'd like a link to the more detailed theory. I mean, google it for me. I'm not your maid.

And yeah, I was gonna say that it doesn't really matter if they did it on purpose (I say they didn't) it's still a cool idea and makes the movie better.

I got annoyed with my sister because she's the main person I watch and talk about movies with. She loves The Prestige. I told her about all this and she just rolled her eyes. She does that whenever I try to talk about shit more in depth, which I do sometimes. I think it's because she always hated reading and english lit classes so she doesn't have a boner for literary analysis.

This guy thinks Cutter put the bodies in the tanks all by himself. Bullshit. Why the fuck-? No. But beyond that, he does a pretty cool rundown that's pretty similar to mine. Also, my friend's argument about that not being the real Tesla? That's also bullpie, cuz the fire that he oh so loves to point out as proof is actually a real thing that happened to the real Tesla, it turns out.

This guy thinks Cutter put the bodies in the tanks all by himself. Bullshit. Why the fuck-? No. But beyond that, he does a pretty cool rundown that's pretty similar to mine. Also, my friend's argument about that not being the real Tesla? That's also bullpie, cuz the fire that he oh so loves to point out as proof is actually a real thing that happened to the real Tesla, it turns out.

You brought it up though. S'not my job. Plus I was probably quoting something. It was forced and I don't know what.

Has your friend admitted how wrong he is and that he's sorry? I know you never would've even come up with this on your own if it weren't for him but come on.

He better be sorry. And he better be over his breakdown by tomorrow when I pick him up from the airport cuz the sheer amount of I-told-you-sos are gonna push him to the brink of another one, and I'd have to turn around so he can fly back home.

We saw The Birds (Alfred Hitchcock) and The Assassination of Jasse James by the Coward Robert Ford (Andrew Dominik) a couple days ago.
I recommend both strongly.

Both great movies. I recently watched the docudrama about Alfred Hitchcock's obsession with Tippie Hedren. It's really creepy but an interesting film that shows what went on behind the scenes of The Birds.

Just got back from Man of Steel. Keep in mind, I'm not really a Superman fanboy.

3.5/5 for me. It put focus on the wrong characters (I reaaally don't care about Jor El) and I didn't much care for the guy who played Zod (Not a single "Kneel before Zod!" Terence Stamp forever). Everything else was good.

I finally saw Entre les murs (The Class). For years there has been no proper version online, but I found an ok one last week. I liked it a lot, but I would've smacked the hell out of those kids anytime. That's why I will never be a teacher.

I went to see Man of Steel last night and I hated it. I actually left before it ended, I'm not sure how long was left but any time was too long for me. Hated it. I'm washing my hands of superhero films, I've never come away from one thinking it was great (exception: Dark Knight). I'm done with them now.

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