(20-08-2012 09:38 PM)TrueReason Wrote: How did you come to that conclusion?

When looking at the universe, and all of the wonders that it contains... and concluding that it must have a creator... how wonderful is the creator compared to the universe? If it is more wonderful, then it must also require a creator. So, who created the creator's creator? Ad infinitum.

That is getting further from the truth, not closer to the truth.

Yet that still doesn't provide an explanation for the origin of the universe. So let's say God needed something to cause him, so what? Something still needed to cause the universe that was outside of that universe. So, before we deal with problem of what caused God, we must deal with the most immediate problem which is, what caused the universe? And that is the question I pose to you.

(20-08-2012 09:38 PM)TrueReason Wrote: How did you come to that conclusion?

When looking at the universe, and all of the wonders that it contains... and concluding that it must have a creator... how wonderful is the creator compared to the universe? If it is more wonderful, then it must also require a creator. So, who created the creator's creator? Ad infinitum.

That is getting further from the truth, not closer to the truth.

This I think is the one question in which there will never be an answer for. Has the universe always been? Did it have a creator? if there is a creator.. where did the creator come from? Why does the answer always end with "the creator has always been there." Yet people argue that something cannot come from nothing. The circle goes round and round untill I get drunk and fed up and just announce that I'm the fucking creator! Damnit! So get on your knees.. go kill some doves and goats to appease my ass cause I like the smell of burnt flesh.... bitches!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire

(20-08-2012 09:55 PM)TrueReason Wrote: So, before we deal with problem of what caused God, we must deal with the most immediate problem which is, what caused the universe? And that is the question I pose to you.

I have no idea. Neither do you.

I admit that I have no idea. You say "God did it"... which doesn't answer the question; it just adds further questions (as I've already mentioned).

(20-08-2012 09:56 PM)ddrew Wrote: This I think is the one question in which there will never be an answer for. Has the universe always been? Did it have a creator? if there is a creator.. where did the creator come from? Why does the answer always end with "the creator has always been there." Yet people argue that something cannot come from nothing. The circle goes round and round untill I get drunk and fed up and just announce that I'm the fucking creator! Damnit! So get on your knees.. go kill some doves and goats to appease my ass cause I like the smell of burnt flesh.... bitches!

There is a possible answer (that appeals to me, at least).

There never was a beginning. The Big Bang is eventually followed by a Big Crunch, followed by a Big Bang... rinse/wash/repeat. For eternity; no beginning and no end. No creator required.

Which leads onto another inevitable question: why is there something, instead of nothing? Perhaps nothingness can never be. Physics demands something.

I don't know.

But knowing that I don't know is superior (in every imaginable way) to "God did it".

I admit that I have no idea. You say "God did it"... which doesn't answer the question; it just adds further questions (as I've already mentioned).

l
Ah I didn't realize you were agnostic on this. While I realize you still won't accept this, the nature of God is that he is not a contigent being. Our understanding of the necessity of causation is based on the laws of the physical universe yet such laws would not apply to the one who created that universe and those laws. I thus find theistic or at least deistic belief to be the only plausible explanation for the origin of the universe, as there must be an ultimate, non-contigent cause.

(20-08-2012 09:55 PM)TrueReason Wrote: So, before we deal with problem of what caused God, we must deal with the most immediate problem which is, what caused the universe? And that is the question I pose to you.

I have no idea. Neither do you.

I admit that I have no idea. You say "God did it"... which doesn't answer the question; it just adds further questions (as I've already mentioned).

Having no idea is not a reason not to ponder on present unknowables.
WE are not obliged to look only at what science has temporarily 'proven'

As for adding further questions, questions can be a source of pleasure, without the need for hard line defining of things.

As a former Humanist and book reviewer for that organization I can see where you are coming from. Good for you, humanism has some good values, they are also very locked into their preferred ideology.

(20-08-2012 10:10 PM)TrueReason Wrote: there must be an ultimate, non-contigent cause.

Nope. You believe that there must be and you name that non-contingent cause "God". But there are other options. How about naming the non-contingent cause "the universe"? And not the sentient variety that theists/deists might imagine... but pure non-sentient physics?

Your god is not a necessity.

But, let's expand things a little (towards your own brand of theism)... if the universe had a sentient non-contingent cause, it most certainly wasn't YHWH. How you get from step 1 to step 2 just blows my atheistic mind. The god of the bible is a self-contradictory freak with MPD.

I admit that I have no idea. You say "God did it"... which doesn't answer the question; it just adds further questions (as I've already mentioned).

l
Ah I didn't realize you were agnostic on this. While I realize you still won't accept this, the nature of God is that he is not a contigent being. Our understanding of the necessity of causation is based on the laws of the physical universe yet such laws would not apply to the one who created that universe and those laws. I thus find theistic or at least deistic belief to be the only plausible explanation for the origin of the universe, as there must be an ultimate, non-contigent cause.

The logical problem with your statement are the words "the only plausible" and "there must be."

We learn new things about the universe every day. To lock in your answer based on a book you've already implied can't be trusted scientifically is short changing yourself as an intelligent being.

To say there must be a non-contingent cause is just a false statement. What law is there that requires this to be the only solution to the question of origins?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
~Izel

(20-08-2012 09:22 PM)GirlyMan Wrote: Do you believe in a postmortem preservation of identity? If so, can you provide a tenable mechanism of action for it?

Thanks,
Bob.

You might need to further explain what you mean by tenable mechanism of action, but my belief on the preservation of identity is that our spirits return to God and it is by Him that they are preserved. Another possible explanation would be that God in his infinite capacity of knowledge would thus preserve our identities there. A man is only truly complete and alive when both spirit and body are united.

Rationally defensible is what I mean by tenable. It's what most mean when they say "tenable". What you describe is just fucking woo woo. ... Why do you theists have such a problem with reconciling your God with your impermanence? ... Your God is weak compared to my God. My God not only recognizes my impermanence, it motherfucking embraces it. .... Hugs.