Trouble logging in?If you can't remember your password or are having trouble logging in, you will have to reset your password. If you have trouble resetting your password (for example, if you lost access to the original email address), please do not start posting with a new account, as this is against the forum rules. If you create a temporary account, please contact us right away via Forum Support, and send us any information you can about your original account, such as the account name and any email address that may have been associated with it.

hahaha. :P You know who I feel sorry for? All the Suzaku hater's, 'cause they're never gonna get what they want from the actual show. Suzaku may be an antagonist, but never has he been shown to be a bad person. You'd be deluding yourself to think that the writers are going to give him any kind of ending which degrades his character or his resolutions.

Suzaku has never been shown to be a bad person?

Betraying your oldest best friend after he's saved your life numerous times, and killing your own father... wow, if that doesn't make somebody a bad person, I seriously wonder what would...

Betraying your oldest best friend after he's saved your life numerous times, and killing your own father... wow, if that doesn't make somebody a bad person, I seriously wonder what would...

Too simplistic of a thought. In the same light, Lelouch did a lot of wrong in his end as well. In Lelouch's own words, he has used the entire Japanese people to aid in his personal revenge. I won't go against his operational reasoning, but he is willing to kill his own siblings to get his goals. Not exactly what you would expect out of a 'good' person, eh? Also, accident or not, he killed the biggest peace ambassador in the entire show so far: Euphemia.

I think it is best that way. War is ugly and both sides are ultimately responsible one way or the other. The Japanese rebellion did show signs of some indiscriminate killing and terrorist activity in their end as well as being the underdog militia.

No, it's not. It demonstrates that Suzaku is not a character that's never been shown to be a bad person.

Again, I never said that Lelouch/Zero is a Saint.

Quote:

In the same light, Lelouch did a lot of wrong in his end as well.

Agreed. The killing of siblings - even half-siblings - is ghastly. However, in fairness to Lelouch, exceedingly harsh intra-royal family competition appears to be encouraged by the Britannia Emporer himself.

Quote:

Also, accident or not, he killed the biggest peace ambassador in the entire show so far: Euphemia.

I think it's really wrong to hold that against Lelouch. It was clearly a complete accident.

Quote:

I think it is best that way. War is ugly and both sides are ultimately responsible one way or the other. The Japanese rebellion did show signs of some indiscriminate killing and terrorist activity in their end as well as being the underdog militia.

Hell, the only character I can't touch at all is Shirley.

Shirley tried to kill a person once.

Acutally, I would consider the Student Council President, and Lelouch's best friend in that Student Council (before Suzaku showed up), to have no known black marks against them.

No, it's not. It demonstrates that Suzaku is not a character that's never been shown to be a bad person.

I just don't see how that in itself is a mark against Suzaku as much as it is for anyone else. Hell, we don't know for absolute certain what the Emperor's goals truly may be. Beyond the twisted scheme, maybe he has a twisted goal at the end. Even if that means total subjugation, at least it'd be the end of massive wars. Though the thinking is the same as any real life despot's.

Quote:

Agreed. The killing of siblings - even half-siblings - is ghastly. However, in fairness to Lelouch, exceedingly harsh intra-royal family competition appears to be encouraged by the Britannia Emporer himself.

I think it's really wrong to hold that against Lelouch. It was clearly a complete accident.

I know you can't hold it against Lelouch, at least not entirely. But his carelessness of a part of it too. That and he was against the wall in those situations. Likewise, I think Suzaku was too. On one hand, he wanted to stop his father's decent into a war but on the other, he was cornered (at least in his mind) to atone it in the outrageous way to actually joining the winning side. I don't consider Suzaku's actions to be entirely of his doing either. He didn't wish for the violence and the war but got caught up in it. The same goes for Lelouch. I don't think both are instinctually killers or evil or anything like that. Shrewd maybe, but not anything like 'oh, he'll become a bad person' type. But the fact of the matter is that both are fully involved now.

Quote:

Shirley tried to kill a person once.

Acutally, I would consider the Student Council President, and Lelouch's best friend in that Student Council (before Suzaku showed up), to have no known black marks against them.

I think Shirley was just caught in a bad situation. The others, they had no chance to really get into the thick of things.

Which is why I added in "who saved Suzaku's life numerous times". The acts should cancel out in Suzaku's mind... leaving 'just' a best friend.

I don't think you can talk about such actions "cancelling out" ô_O Euphemia's death was way too dramatic to think Suzaku should just forget about it because Lelouch saved him several times. It...does not work that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think it's really wrong to hold that against Lelouch. It was clearly a complete accident.

I seem to remember Lelouch wanting to force Euphie into shooting him so there would be a revolt and people would stop believing in her before the accident. He did change his mind, but his intentions were not peaceful to begin with (or I missed him saying otherwise and I'll have to rewatch some parts of the show)

Lelouch making 'pu pu' jokes with Euphemia was what killed her. Pretty lame if you ask me. The biggest blunder he has made.

Also, I wonder if Suzaku would've survived without Lelouch's Geass command? And would Lelouch have lived without Suzaku's own helpful interventions too? I don't think you can really go by who is truly the more 'bad' of the two when they intersect in their actions ALL the time. It's just that it's more easy to sympathize with Lelouch as the main protagonist fighting for a rebellion + his sister. While with Suzaku, his goals are more murkier and the end game not as well revealed. And like Lelouch has said, maybe Suzaku is going from the general flow of events while following his ideals and not directly with his head, planning all the time like Lelouch is. I always thought of both of them as two sides of the same coin but with totally different abilities and that hasn't changed yet.

Did you watch episode 16? ......They were arguing about the war, his father slapped him and Suzaku reacted instinctively (I know, in the wrong way).
His murder was not planned! He was only a child after all.

I'm gonna throw something in here about what's been said about Lelouch being willing to 'stop' along his path for the sake of Euphie/Nunally, but Suzaku not being able to.

Here's a question. What is the ultimate goal of these two characters? What are they fighting for?

Lelouch has recognized, he knows that what he's doing is for selfish purposes. He wants revenge for his own sake. He wants a kind world for Nunally's sake. Like he told Suzaku, 'the world' (more like his world, really) does not revolve around ideals. Lelouch is personally attached, and has emotional investments, in all his goals. That is why Euphie is able to prevail over him; she pit his two emotional investments against each other, and the kinder one won.

This isn't the case for Suzaku though. Although Lelouch and Suzaku are parallels in that they are both pushed onto the paths they are taking, in that they don't have any other choice than to act as they do, their motivations are entirely different. Suzaku is driven ideologically. All of Suzaku's actions are taken with an intent beyond his own personal best interests, beyond his personal well being. While Lelouch is willing to make others suffer to achieve his revenge, Suzaku is willing to make himself suffer for the sake of others' happiness. All of Suzaku's actions are taken with the best interests of the Japanese people, and of good people in general, in mind. At the very least, in his mind.

So if Suzaku is fighting for an ideal beyond himself, why would he stop? Why would he give up? Suzaku is pursuing, the only way he knows how, what he sees as the ultimate good. This is something that he is willing to die for. Given that conviction, why would any kind of personal interest or emotion convince him to stop?

Now I'm not saying that Suzaku is right. Nobody knows that yet, and we probably will never get to find out since Code Geass is Lelouch's story. But similarly, we don't know for sure that Lelouch is right either. So I've just gotta ask, when you can't know what is right or wrong in the world of Code Geass...how can so many people hate Suzaku for doing what he believes in? Really. If you consider Suzaku's history and the life he's lived so far, it makes perfect sense how he could come to hold the convictions that he does.

He justifies his murder, Suzaku is shown that he is willing to kill anyone who would disrupt what he thinks is right.

He's not good, he's just as bad as anyone who enacts self justice. He's a hypocrite, and he's delusional as well. If he thinks that a minority can change a bigotted empire bent on world domination, that isn't even a democracy, but rather a monarchy, from the inside, he's a dumbass. The moment he became a knight, he became a tool of the king. His job is to kill and nothing more, and when they don't need him anymore, whats going to happen? Easy, they gonna "off" the little chink ( I can say this cause I'm the same nationality :P ) and whos gonna speak up against the King? uh, no one.

I wonder where all these people get the arrogance to deride another person's intelligence? Honestly, there's something called 'perspective', you know. I find it hilarious how all these sheep, with all the biases and hypocrisies of their own closed little worlds, can come in here and decry 'omg that guy's so retarded, I'm so much smarter than he is!'. Wow. Even you?

His perspective is F'd up and delusional, all great changes in history are done by destroying the oppressive government. If you deny it, then you yourself are deluding yourself. The only possible way that an empire like this will change is if the one who takes the kings place is a loving person like Yuffie. But she's dead now, and the rest of the kids are as egomanical as their father.

I wonder where all these people get the arrogance to deride another person's intelligence? Honestly, there's something called 'perspective', you know. I find it hilarious how all these sheep, with all the biases and hypocrisies of their own closed little worlds, can come in here and decry 'omg that guy's so retarded, I'm so much smarter than he is!'. Wow. Even you?

I wonder where all these people get the arrogance to deride another person's intelligence? Honestly, there's something called 'perspective', you know. I find it hilarious how all these sheep, with all the biases and hypocrisies of their own closed little worlds, can come in here and decry 'omg that guy's so retarded, I'm so much smarter than he is!'. Wow. Even you?

Ah, man. This is really, just too rich.

Some people just don't turn a blind eye to hypocrisy, and the selling out and torture of their friends to improve themselves.

Maybe Suzaku fans can take comfort in the fact that he used Euphie's death as a way to get himself a higher rank, while at the same time after getting that rank let the massacre of Japanese citizens go on without batting an eye.

I wonder where all these people get the arrogance to deride another person's intelligence? Honestly, there's something called 'perspective', you know. I find it hilarious how all these sheep, with all the biases and hypocrisies of their own closed little worlds, can come in here and decry 'omg that guy's so retarded, I'm so much smarter than he is!'. Wow. Even you?

I chuckled reading this. It does not take a large sum of intelligence and/or awareness to discern stupidity and hypocrisy from smart actions. While Suzaku's actions may be justifiably 'good' or for the 'greater good', they are still self-satisfying goals that are warped by his own hypocritical view of the world. Then, some of his actions, which go completely against both his own reasoning and reason in general, are purely idiotic. For example, in the second episode, when the Japanese woman is falling to her death, Suzaku opts to save her (one person) instead of stopping a terrorist who would kill many, many more people. Ironically, that woman was going to be killed later by Clovis if not for Lelouch. Some of his actions are simply not thought out, and are, more or less, jerk reactions to him trying to 'change' Japan from the inside out.

Perspective is a nice thing, however, not all perspectives are equal. In fact, some are plain idiotic and shouldn't even be considered. So while it's nice that everyone has their own ability to percieve from a given scene or Season, it does not really give them unquestionable right to put that perspective up for show and vigorously defend it. Especially when there is little to no backing to the idea.

I also find it hilarious that you find it convenient to insult the opinions of everyone who does not agree with you (the irony is amazing). That train of thought (or is it perhaps a strain?) stops working past the 3rd Grade. At which point, you need to actually argue points and not simply dismiss them as: "Lulz you wrong, I right!"

Every human is hypocritical, that is part of human nature. Now, time for me to crawl back into my closed little world.

Suzaku has the luxary of being a high ranking officer, while never experiencing the slave like treatment the common people receives. Theres been time in history where a race of people who were basically enslaved, but theres that one whos of that race but sold his soul to achieve high rank to enjoy that luxary using excuses like Suzaku to make it look like he's doing it for the people.

The difference about Suzaku and Lelouch in season 1 was that Suzaku pretty much always thought he was in the right. Lelouch knew that a lot of his actions were dark in nature and could be evil and hated.

__________________

By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln