I reread Chau's informative and helpful thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10658.msg94705.html#msg94705 in which he established a conversion factor between ADY and his natural starter of 15 grams = 1/8 teaspoon ADY. Then, using the simple mathematical expression he gave in Reply 109 in this thread (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg107357.html#msg107357), I came up with a a value of 12% for the amount of natural poolish to use in relation to the total formula flour. For this calculation, I used 0.40% IDY, which is what you normally use for your basic Lehmann preferment dough formulation. Since you are using a natural poolish, with equal weights of flour and water, and because of the many other variations in natural preferments, including readiness, type/composition and fermentation protocol, the difference between 12% and the value of 14.39% I established in Reply 111 using the cruder conversion method perhaps doesn't mean a lot. However, at such point as you decide to make a larger batch of dough (e.g., five dough balls), you have the option of redoing the dough formulation I gave you in Reply 111 but using Chau's value of 12%. In the meantime, you might even learn something from your current experiment that might require or suggest other modifications to the dough formulation.

What I have been trying to do thus far is to see if I can come up with a naturally leavened version of a dough formulation that matches as closely as possible the current Lehmann commercial yeast preferment dough formulation you are using but with a different fermentation protocol, as you are now testing with a single dough ball. A major advantage of this approach, apart from hopefully getting better tasting crusts with improved texture, is that the physical aspects of the exercise, such as number and weights of dough balls (e.g., dough batch size) and pizza size (16"), remain the same. Potentially, the major challenge may be how to adapt the dough formulation and fermentation protocol to your one-day-a-week market environment without having to constantly feed your cultures as you would any other pet. You will also have to contend with the vagaries of weather and ambient temperature, as you are now experiencing with the single dough ball.

Sometime when you have your starter culture fully active and ready to use, it would be interesting to know how much a cup of that culture actually weighs, that is, is it around 9 ounces, as Ed Wood uses as a conversion factor?

Chau does many helpful and informative threads and is helpful to anyone. It is interesting that you came up with 12% value for the amount of natural poolish in relation to the total formula flour, using Chauís ideas. I can understand there is going to be many variables in trying the Lehmann dough with a natural starter and might learn something from the sour dough I made yesterday and am playing with today. I also need to understand how potent my starters can become and then how that will affect my dough. I did foresee what a major challenge this might be in trying this at market, but will try to understand all what happens with sour doughs. This might take a lot of experimenting with the natural starter in the Lehmann dough. I can also understand I will need to feed my starter, just like a pet, and keep them viable.

I will feed the starter again today and then measure out a cup to see what it weighs. Where do I go to find out how much a cup would weigh in oz. or grams?

I just took two more pictures outside of the sour dough ball fermenting and by what I see, I think it is time to cold ferment the dough ball, until I have time later today to make a pizza out of the sour dough ball. I donít want to let this dough ball become unmanageable, so I wonít be able to make a pizza out of it today. It feels soft and puffy.

Thx, Peter & Norma. Norma, you are always so kind towards me and everyone else on the forum.

Maybe this has been mentioned already but when using a high(er) % of starter and assuming it is 50/50 water and flour, I will usually subtract half the weight of the starter (in grams) from the flour side and water side of the formula to keep the total dough weight from fluctuating too much.

As an aside, I am running this experiment b/t IDY & the ischia starter this morning. I will post up my results later. I am using 0.2% IDY vs 6% ischia starter. The dough was made about 1 hour ago and I hope they will be ready to use within 6-8 hours. I will be watching for the dough to approximately double during the bulk rise. I'll then ball the dough up and apply poppyseeds to them and let them proof up to at least double again.

The 2 biggest discrepancies with my starters is that I eyeball the amount of flour and water used during the feeding. The 2nd discrepancy is that I use the starter when it "appears" active rather measuring the amount of rise after each feeding and before using. So my results may very well be skewed already.

I can understand more flavor will develop, but I am concerned about since you use ď00" flour and I used KASL flour in this sour dough, that ď00" flour seems to have a lower amylase enzyme activity with lower amount of starch damage. My ambient room temperature arenít really cool this time of year. I am worried there wonít be enough of residual sugar left and my dough might become unmanageable. I also am only going to be baking in my home oven. Just since I balled the bulk fermented dough it has risen to almost double in size. I used 5% starter for my formula and will post the formula I used later today. I am not sure of the potency of my starter either, because I just activated them last week. My salt amounts I used arenít that high either so, they also wonít delay fermentation in my opinion. I am just trying to understand sour dough and how it behaves. I donít want to have to call 911 forum control, but might need to.

Thanks,

Norma

Flour & salt are definitely key factors in action/reaction. I have never used KASL because it's not available in Canada, but have used HG bread flour with similar properties. The results were consistent with those using 00. I find that 3% salt works very good under my conditions/climate which are the same as yours. As you know, starters are very unpredictable & need to be trained to perform under your conditions. Although my typical results are very consistent they are always different.

S00da, I don't think we are. We are trying to find/confirm a generalize conversion rate for starter and ADY/IDY so that members can do simple math and switch from one to the other.

I found a usuable conversion for ADY to Starter (or vice versa) a while back and now trying to apply that to IDY vs Ischia starter. I realize that starters can vary in leavening strength let alone the way it is fed and activated. Maybe if we can find a usable conversion, then we can nail down a somewhat standardize method for caring/feeding/activating starters from the fridge to room temps.

Well at least that's what I'm doing. I think Norma would like to make her Lehmann dough recipe using Starters instead of IDY as she had been previously.

S00da, I don't think we are. We are trying to find/confirm a generalize conversion rate for starter and ADY/IDY so that members can do simple math and switch from one to the other.

I found a usuable conversion for ADY to Starter (or vice versa) a while back and now trying to apply that to IDY vs Ischia starter. I realize that starters can vary in leavening strength let alone the way it is fed and activated. Maybe if we can find a usable conversion, then we can nail down a somewhat standardize method for caring/feeding/activating starters from the fridge to room temps.

Well at least that's what I'm doing. I think Norma would like to make her Lehmann dough recipe using Starters instead of IDY as she had been previously.

I only used ADY in the first formula I used, because I made the dough in one day. I am not using IDY or ADY in the formula I made yesterday.

Norma

Matt,

Do you have some kind of room or temperature control unit where you bulk ferment you dough and dough balls? I only figured out a formula yesterday using the preferment dough calculating tool and donít know what my results will be. I can understand that starters are very unpredictable and I will need to study how all this fits together. I think what Chau is trying today with IDY is different from what I am trying, but he is using an Ischia starter in his experiment.

I will feed the starter again today and then measure out a cup to see what it weighs. Where do I go to find out how much a cup would weigh in oz. or grams?

Norma,

I am not quite sure I understand your question, but if you are asking where I got the 9 ounce per cup conversion factor, it was in the Appendix to Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdughs. A cup of your starter culture might be more or less than that.

Do you have some kind of room or temperature control unit where you bulk ferment you dough and dough balls? I only figured out a formula yesterday using the preferment dough calculating tool and donít know what my results will be. I can understand that starters are very unpredictable and I will need to study how all this fits together. I think what Chau is trying today with IDY is different from what I am trying, but he is using an Ischia starter in his experiment.

Norma

My starter is activated in the MR148, & the finished dough is proofed in my homemade proofing box under controlled temperatures & humidity. I proof the dough balls in a commercial dough tray in my indoor oven controlling the temperature by cycling the light in the oven on & off.

I am not quite sure I understand your question, but if you are asking where I got the 9 ounce per cup conversion factor, it was in the Appendix to Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdughs. A cup of your starter culture might be more or less than that.

Peter

Peter,

What I meant, was should I just weigh out a cup of starter before I feed it and then feed it and next weigh how much activated starter weighs at one cup? Sorry for the confusion.

My starter is activated in the MR148, & the finished dough is proofed in my homemade proofing box under controlled temperatures & humidity. I proof the dough balls in a commercial dough tray in my indoor oven controlling the temperature by cycling the light in the oven on & off.

Matt

Matt,

I can understand since you do have already figured out methods using controlled temperature and humidity for proofing your bulk dough, this might be different in my situation, in just letting the bulk dough ferment at my irregular ambient room temperatures.

What I meant, was should I just weigh out a cup of starter before I feed it and then feed it and next weigh how much activated starter weighs at one cup? Sorry for the confusion.

Norma,

No problem. What I wanted to see is how much one cup of your natural Ischia poolish weighs at the point where you are about to use it to make the dough. That might not happen until you make your next dough batch. So there is no urgency. I just wanted to test the number that Ed Wood uses.

No problem. What I wanted to see is how much one cup of your natural Ischia poolish weighs at the point where you are about to use it to make the dough. That might not happen until you make your next dough batch. So there is no urgency. I just wanted to test the number that Ed Wood uses.

Peter

Peter,

I already have the Ischia starter out of the refrigerator. I just wanted to make sure how you wanted me to measure it.

Will let you know what kind of results in weights I got with using one cup (229.92 grams) adding flour and water by weight and then weighing the active Ischia starter at 229.92 grams. My scale isn't that accurate, but will weigh at rounded number of 230 grams for 1 cup.

well it looks like when I use my starter this morning it wasn't fully active. Right now the IDY ball is growing at a faster rate. I'm not sure it willl equalize over the next 4-5 hours.

Norma are you using a measuring cup for dry ingredients or for liquids? Just curious as I have an active starter now and can measure out a cup to compare.

Chau

Chau,

LOL, what do you mean your starter wasn't fully active. Wonder what is going to happen to that dough ball. I am not sure, but probably the commercial yeast will take over.

Here is what I just did. It might give you a laugh. If you want to measure your active starter out, maybe we will get the same weighs. I am not sure of that.

I hope I got this right this time. I usually weigh everything out on my scale, but havenít been weighing the flour and water by weight, for the starters. I have only been using my measuring cups because I was varying the amounts of water and flour to see what would happen with my starter becoming more active with using less or more flour and water. Well, first I measured 1 cup (229 grams) of starter, then I went to measure the flour and take half of the weight of the of 229 grams. Something didnít look right, so I went on the web searching for how much flour should weigh in grams for Ĺ cup. I found it should weigh 70 grams for Ĺ cup of flour. Then I also thought about the weight of the water, so I looked again and found the water should weigh 112 grams for Ĺ cup of water. I still donít know if I got this right, but this is the picture of the fed starter. I donít know what I was thinking about, but can see how other people can become mixed up with all this.

Sorry for any confusion that I've cause on my behalf. What I am doing today is comparing how much IDY it would take to create an equivalent rise in the dough compared to an active ischia starter. I made 2 doughballs. 1 has IDY in it and the other the ischia starter. So technically they are separate and the IDY won't take over.

I had fed the ischia late last night and left it out since I was in the process of activating it for the first time. It was bubbly this morning. I fed it only a tsp of flour or so just to get it active again, assuming the yeast had exhausted all of the available food source throughout the night. After about an hour or so it was slightly more bubbly so I went ahead and use it in the formula. After making the doughball, I fed it with a 1/2 cup of flour and some water. About too hours later noted that the starter was much more active than when I used it this morning, thus my conclusion of maybe I hadn't used it at it's peak which is ideal. I also made this conclusion after see the 2 doughballs (IDY vs Starter) were bulk rising at different rates, the IDY being faster.

My starter is active now so I want to dump it into a measuring cup to weigh it but unsure as what to use. A dry measure cup or one for liquid. I will do both and average the weight.

OK so I just measure out a cup of active starter using a dry measuring cup and got 210gm. While pouring the frothy batter back into a liquid measuring cup, I noted that some of the bubbles are popping leading to a lower volume in the cup. I just fed it again and will wait for it to become bubbly and active again before taking the 2nd measurement using a liqued measuring cup.

This picture is how the sour dough starter looked after two hours. I didnít let it activate anymore and then weighed the active starter. I used two different measuring cups I have here at home to measure how much a full measuring cup would weigh. In the one measuring cup the active starter weighed 7.6 oz or 216 grams. In the other measuring cup the active starter weighed 7.1 oz. or 202 grams.

Picture below of how the starter looked before I measured out one cup of active starter..