Just trying to figure out all this "quit talk." (and yes, i watched every cavs playoff game this year and last year and the year before)what if lebron really was hurt during (or before) the boston series? If you think he quit, then fine...All you ultimate posters don't need to post after this saying, "no, he quit.." Just don't read any further.

it's something that virtually no one has brought up, instead choosing to subjectively view his play as "quitting," just as i'm subjectively viewing his play as a result of an injury. And we've read (and been fed from the national media) about james looking around disinterested during timeouts, having uncharacteristic turnovers, and looking relieved to take off his cavs jersey at the end of game 6. I'll bet you any money those writers were from boston, LA, new york etc. I don't need to say much more about that.

Hypothetically, let's say he was hurt. His play would suffer and he wouldn't be able to do many of the things we are used to seeing. Maybe that is what we saw in the boston series. Examine 2 things we have:--If lebron sits out and makes his injury known, the series is over in 4 games, not 6---Boston fouls...a lot. Boston already did a hack job to shaq earlier in the season (see glen davis), and i'm sure james was next on that list every time he went to the hole.

So far this offseason, none of his teamates have called him out as quitting. Plus, he's never had a major injury in 7 years, so we don't have a baseline for what a "hurt lebron" plays like. And for those of you that say "we haven't heard of him needing any major surgery," there is such a thing as HIPPA and patient confientiality, to which rest of the world has to adhere.

Let's face it, the whole team played shitty, the coach put out retarded lineups, and we couldn't defend when we needed to. That's not one guy quitting. That's was just bad basketball at the wrong time.

chop chop.

but in no place is the pain like Cleveland's: all-encompassing, multi-generational, redundant and unique at once.---Scott Raab of Deadspin

Well,he played Game 2 like he played Game 5 and in between he put on that display in Game 3. Hard to buy the injury (though part of me still feels that was a some part of it) as the whole story.

I think it was a culmination of all things in reality. Maybe being banged up but mostly being shocked/disappointed/angry with Brown and some guys around him. The body language, the shaking his head when passing Brown on the sidelines, everything just seemed to indicate he was resigned to the fact they weren't winning Game 5 or the series.

Also, the fact he may have been hurt doesn't mean he still didn't quit. It can be some of both too.

Bron probably was hurt during the Boston series. That elbow was likely bothering him a lot more than he let on. And I'm sure the Celtics knew it too.

That said, if you want to be an Inner Ring All-Time NBA Great, then you suck it up and perform, injury be damned. Jordan's flu game. Kobe playing most of the season with a broken finger and a bad back. Larry Bird playing with a back so bad, he had to lay face-down on the floor when not playing. McHale playing on a broken foot. Isiah damn near single-handedly taking down the Lakers despite a severely sprained ankle. (And those last two guys, while they were great, aren't in the Inner Circle.)

It may not be fair. But that's the standard.

If it flies, floats, or fornicates, always rent it -- it's cheaper in the long run.

I believe it was a multitude of varying forces to combine into one perfect storm of melt down. LeBron's injury, albeit who knows how serious, was definitely a contributing factor but it was by no means the entire reason the Cavs and LeBron went down. I have listed the 4 contributing factors in order of impact.

1) Delonte / Gloria: Professional colleague called me up back on 5/21. I've known him for awhile and he has always come across as a 100% straight shooter and he knows how big of a Cleveland sports fan I am. He said that a close associate of Mike Brown, and also a friend of his, told him two things. a) Delonte was 100% sleeping with Gloria b) LeBron will not be coming back to Cleveland because the day before game 5 he found out about the Delonte / Gloria situation and also found out that the entire Cavs organization knew about the whole time and never told him. I believe this to be true.

2) Mike Brown's shear idiocy: It seemed as though the entire team quit on Mike Brown somewhere between game 3 and 5. They saw the ridiculous rotations he was throwing out on the court and just didn't believe they had any shot of beating Boston, let alone the Magic and Lakers. The team, and specifically LeBron, had seen this broken record in previous playoffs and mailed it in. Playing Antwawn, Mo, Jamario, Boobie, Z the way Brown did was just mind blowingly idiotic and the team couldn't get past it mentally or on the court.

3) Boston finding the fountain of youth: Even with the two above the Cavs should have easily handled the regular season Celtics. Obviously the Celtics have been hitting the HGH hard. Can you really blame the Cavs for getting bounced by this Celtics team that has dismantled the Magic and Lakers (at least till game 6).

4) LeBron's injury: I don't know if it was for show or not but LeBron really looked very bothered by that elbow in games 4,5,6. Game 3 they had the big layoff before which allowed him to rest and rehabiliate that elbow. He came out and basically won the game in the 1st quarter as his elbow was feeling rested.

So yea, I think the melt down was more about Brown's complete inability to manage an f'ing rotation and adapt....as well as the internal strife that was caused by Delonte/Gloria. Way more so than LeBron's elbow or the Celtics getting their groove back.

I don't care if he was hurt, or if he was mad that his momma was bangin' Redz, or Mike Brown didn't kowtow to him, or he felt like no one else was helping him, or he was worried about the situation in the Middle East, or he was trying to figure out what was going on in Lost, or he found his first gray hair, or he just found out that the estimate to put the Olympic sized pool in his basement was more expensive than he first thought.

What I do care about is that he was playing in the pivotal game of a major playoff series with a team that might be the best he'll EVER be on (who knows what the future holds) - in other words, his best-ever shot at a Championship - and he played with no guts at all.

Whatever your problem, personal, injury, whatever... when you're in a situation like that, you put said problem aside and you get the job done. Hell, you might even say that whatever issue he was facing should've INCREASED his focus.

That's what the great ones do.

I'd love for him to come back b/c he's a great player and the team is much better with him. But I'm not going to start making excuses for something that's inexcusable.

Orenthal wrote:Agree Hiko. Think Kobe pulls that Game 5 act? Jordan? Thomas? Bird? Allen Iverson didn't quit against the Lakers when there was no freaking chance in hell his team would win that series...

Except we don't need to rely on media reports from anywhere else to know about "And we've read (and been fed from the national media) about james looking around disinterested during timeouts, having uncharacteristic turnovers, and looking relieved to take off his cavs jersey at the end of game 6."

We saw it with out own eyes. And from Windy's mouth.

I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime

Orenthal wrote:Agree Hiko. Think Kobe pulls that Game 5 act? Jordan? Thomas? Bird? Allen Iverson didn't quit against the Lakers when there was no freaking chance in hell his team would win that series...

Jordan, Thomas, Bird, no; Kobe, yes. Just look at Game 6 of the 2008 Finals; a 39-point drubbing. Also Game 5 against the Suns in 2006 when he blatantly refused to shoot for the entire 2nd half and they lost by 19.

1) Delonte / Gloria: Professional colleague called me up back on 5/21. I've known him for awhile and he has always come across as a 100% straight shooter and he knows how big of a Cleveland sports fan I am. He said that a close associate of Mike Brown, and also a friend of his, told him two things. a) Delonte was 100% sleeping with Gloria b) LeBron will not be coming back to Cleveland because the day before game 5 he found out about the Delonte / Gloria situation and also found out that the entire Cavs organization knew about the whole time and never told him. I believe this to be true.

Did he leave ya with only this part of the story or did he include the preface that goes along with it?

There is no doubt he was hurt. His shooting elbow. It's one of the reasons why he DIDN'T quit in Game 5, but got extremely frustrated because of a combination of Boston's defense that was taking away his drives and his inability to hit jumpers. I don't believe he was ever so frustrated in his life -- by his own shortcomings -- and didn't react well. Didn't react as an MVP or a champion, as a matter of fact.

LeBron was hurt. He basically pulled up lame, figuring if he can't dominate, if he can't look like himself, what's the point in even trying? He looks mortal out there, and the team probably can't win anyway.

They seldom pushed the ball, seldom used Boston's main shortcomings -- age and a lack of team speed save for Rondo -- against them. They constantly let Boston's D beat them down the floor and turn the game into a slowdown affair. That's on Brown and LeBron.

The mismatches were also on Ferry. With 20/20 hindsight, he acquired a lot of scorers who were defensive liabilities. Brown was trying to coach defense first on a team that wasn't really designed for defense anymore. Lo and behold, Mo and Twan were torched for six games by Rondo and KG.

With that in mind, it really is time to get back to the Spurs/Pistons basics that Gilbert wanted when he bought the team. Whether LeBron stays or goes.

1) Delonte / Gloria: Professional colleague called me up back on 5/21. I've known him for awhile and he has always come across as a 100% straight shooter and he knows how big of a Cleveland sports fan I am. He said that a close associate of Mike Brown, and also a friend of his, told him two things. a) Delonte was 100% sleeping with Gloria b) LeBron will not be coming back to Cleveland because the day before game 5 he found out about the Delonte / Gloria situation and also found out that the entire Cavs organization knew about the whole time and never told him. I believe this to be true.

Did he leave ya with only this part of the story or did he include the preface that goes along with it?

Wouldn't it be pretty hard for an entire organization to keep mum on that? We're talking at least 50 people, including some of the biggest Bron ass-kissers on the planet. If the "entire organization" knew, it means Delonte had been banging Gloria for a while, and I highly doubt it could have been kept secret from LeBron until mid-May.

Regardless, Delonte won't be back next year, and the organization is going to look a lot different by the end of the summer. So the idea that Bron has already rubber-stamped his ticket out of town might be a bit premature.

Of course, if LBJ announces his intention to sign with the Bulls or Knicks over Fourth of July weekend, I'll reserve the right to retract my statement.

papacass wrote:Of course, if LBJ announces his intention to sign with the Bulls or Knicks over the Labor Day weekend, after a two-month tour of free agent suitors and enough publicity for even the biggest attention whore, I'll reserve the right to retract my statement.

Fixed.

If it flies, floats, or fornicates, always rent it -- it's cheaper in the long run.

I'm not saying I don't believe James'feelings are hurt by West getting w/his mom,but how didn't his own "team" (entourage) know (if it went on for a while)? I thought they had ev-er-y-thing under their thumb. If it was a one-time thing, wonder exactly when he learned about it?

Personally (opinion), I do think his arm was really hurt. I think he was able to overcome some, but that it got worse. I have been wondering if it's even better.Will be veeeery interesting to see how his physicals go with Chicago or whoever.

Orenthal wrote:Agree Hiko. Think Kobe pulls that Game 5 act? Jordan? Thomas? Bird? Allen Iverson didn't quit against the Lakers when there was no freaking chance in hell his team would win that series...

Jordan, Thomas, Bird, no; Kobe, yes. Just look at Game 6 of the 2008 Finals; a 39-point drubbing. Also Game 5 against the Suns in 2006 when he blatantly refused to shoot for the entire 2nd half and they lost by 19.

I had a friend in college who played for one of the more storied coaches in Ohio high school history at one of the high profile AAA programs in the 70's and 80's. His senior year they had a dynamite team and made it to the state finals. Morning of the finals, some of the guys were doing what cats did in that day. Think "Dazed and Confused". Their stud player decides to partake .... for the first time. And he looked alot like Bron in game 5.

Orenthal wrote:Agree Hiko. Think Kobe pulls that Game 5 act? Jordan? Thomas? Bird? Allen Iverson didn't quit against the Lakers when there was no freaking chance in hell his team would win that series...

Jordan, Thomas, Bird, no; Kobe, yes. Just look at Game 6 of the 2008 Finals; a 39-point drubbing. Also Game 5 against the Suns in 2006 when he blatantly refused to shoot for the entire 2nd half and they lost by 19.

+1

Kobe DID quit. He did go public with concerns.

What he also did was commit to his franchise so they could get better.

Kobe was nothing less than iconic these past 2 seasons. Bron should wear his under-ooo's.

peeker643 wrote:Well,he played Game 2 like he played Game 5 and in between he put on that display in Game 3. Hard to buy the injury (though part of me still feels that was a some part of it) as the whole story.

I think it was a culmination of all things in reality. Maybe being banged up but mostly being shocked/disappointed/angry with Brown and some guys around him. The body language, the shaking his head when passing Brown on the sidelines, everything just seemed to indicate he was resigned to the fact they weren't winning Game 5 or the series.

Also, the fact he may have been hurt doesn't mean he still didn't quit. It can be some of both too.

There was some unofficial word I hear that he took the needle for game 3 and you could only take the _______________ (prednizone? cortezone?) with a few days in between, and the number of days didn't exist for game 5 and the treatment wore off.

I had a friend in college who played for one of the more storied coaches in Ohio high school history at one of the high profile AAA programs in the 70's and 80's. His senior year they had a dynamite team and made it to the state finals. Morning of the finals, some of the guys were doing what cats did in that day. Think "Dazed and Confused". Their stud player decides to partake .... for the first time. And he looked alot like Bron in game 5.

So that's my theory. Bron was stoned.

Pain killers were brought up by someone. Roda? Maybe he was getting the good stuff from the trainer to get through the game with his bad elbow.

Hydrocodone for example, part of several popular pain killers, causes drowsiness, dysphoria, confusion, weakness, mood changes, sedation, among other things.

peeker643 wrote:Well,he played Game 2 like he played Game 5 and in between he put on that display in Game 3. Hard to buy the injury (though part of me still feels that was a some part of it) as the whole story.

I think it was a culmination of all things in reality. Maybe being banged up but mostly being shocked/disappointed/angry with Brown and some guys around him. The body language, the shaking his head when passing Brown on the sidelines, everything just seemed to indicate he was resigned to the fact they weren't winning Game 5 or the series.

Also, the fact he may have been hurt doesn't mean he still didn't quit. It can be some of both too.

There was some unofficial word I hear that he took the needle for game 3 and you could only take the _______________ (prednizone? cortezone?) with a few days in between, and the number of days didn't exist for game 5 and the treatment wore off.

Just what I'd heard. still baffled and we may never know.

I think aoxo pointed this out earlier, but if he got shot up before game 3 wouldn't he have been in similar condition for game 2 as he was for game 5? Becuase he would have been coming down from his previous shot.

JB, I think you have your drugs mixed up (takes a lot of nerve for me to say that too.) You can only take a steroid like cortisone once every 4 months, but it lasts for weeks. If he got a shot early in the Beantown series, he should have been fine for a while. On the other hand, a local painkiller should have worked and been out of his system and ready for reuse quick. I still think it's possible he and the team had a fight over his need to get shot up vs. not risk greater injury and his career.

The Delonte/Gloria stuff explains some stuff, but, like the man said, how does the org. keep that quiet - and why do they then admit they knew it? And why did Delonte see the floor ever again? Makes no sense.

And, we know the elbow was hurt. LB went out of his way to let us know with the left handed free throw, and in game 4 he was hurt enough early on that he could barely hit the side of the rim with his shots. Was he bummed he couldn't be 100%? What about Windy's conviction he gave his all in game 6?

Yeah, it's all speculation, but it beats thnking about the only other Bball stories out there right now. But, I don't think we know anything at this point.

My fear is that the answer to 1 is (d). The organization probably figured that they should cover up the incident and not let LeBron find out until after the playoffs were over. Win the championship first, and deal with it later, but the plan backfired.

My fear is that the answer to 1 is (d). The organization probably figured that they should cover up the incident and not let LeBron find out until after the playoffs were over. Win the championship first, and deal with it later, but the plan backfired.

We're all starting to look for neatly-packaged reasons to justify why LBJ would want to leave, so that we can do our best to not be shocked/appalled/hurt if and when he does sign elsewhere. We can just say "Bron's teammate was banging his mom, and it's obvious the whole organization knew about it and tried to hide it from him. I probably wouldn't want to come back either."

That's a conveinent way of tainting the whole organization, so that no matter who is shown the door this offseason -- Roker is gone, Ferry is gone, Delonte will likely be dealt -- Bron is still furious with anyone who remains, all the way up to Gilbert, and the betrayal theory still works.

In reality, if LBJ goes elsewhere, it likely has less to do with anything that happened in Cleveland and far more to do with him believing that the grass is greener elsewhere and that it makes better business sense to go to a bigger market.

Everyone realizes that if LBJ does switch teams, it will probably be a business decision first and a basketball decision second? I think it was JB who said that basketball is a means to an end for Bron, not the end result as it is for Kobe or was for MJ. That's right on, and it's why LBJ will likely never win more than one or two rings over the course of his career. If he wins any.

My fear is that the answer to 1 is (d). The organization probably figured that they should cover up the incident and not let LeBron find out until after the playoffs were over. Win the championship first, and deal with it later, but the plan backfired.

We're all starting to look for neatly-packaged reasons to justify why LBJ would want to leave, so that we can do our best to not be shocked/appalled/hurt if and when he does sign elsewhere. We can just say "Bron's teammate was banging his mom, and it's obvious the whole organization knew about it and tried to hide it from him. I probably wouldn't want to come back either."

That's a conveinent way of tainting the whole organization, so that no matter who is shown the door this offseason -- Roker is gone, Ferry is gone, Delonte will likely be dealt -- Bron is still furious with anyone who remains, all the way up to Gilbert, and the betrayal theory still works.

In reality, if LBJ goes elsewhere, it likely has less to do with anything that happened in Cleveland and far more to do with him believing that the grass is greener elsewhere and that it makes better business sense to go to a bigger market.

Everyone realizes that if LBJ does switch teams, it will probably be a business decision first and a basketball decision second? I think it was JB who said that basketball is a means to an end for Bron, not the end result as it is for Kobe or was for MJ. That's right on, and it's why LBJ will likely never win more than one or two rings over the course of his career. If he wins any.

Very good points. What strikes me though is how quickly the situation changed between April and May. At the beginning of the playoffs (and through game 3), it seemed very likely that LeBron would stay. By game 5, everythng sprialed out of control. Something happened, suddenly. Injury, Roker, Delonte, etc, it's natural to look for any explanation for quitting on the court. But, did the business environment suddenly change between game 3 and game 5? Of course, it will end up being a business decision, but the decision will be a consequence of some other factor.

Don't look at Game 5 in a vacuum, look at it is as the culmination of the previous series and the previous Boston games. Leading up to that game, LeBron had been giving inconsistent effort. Yes, he was himself at times and had a couple games that he destroyed both Chicago and Boston, but there was plenty of griping about him not taking control against Chicago for much of the series, followed by justification that he was saving himself for when the team really needed him.

I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime

aoxo1 wrote:Don't look at Game 5 in a vacuum, look at it is as the culmination of the previous series and the previous Boston games. Leading up to that game, LeBron had been giving inconsistent effort. Yes, he was himself at times and had a couple games that he destroyed both Chicago and Boston, but there was plenty of griping about him not taking control against Chicago for much of the series, followed by justification that he was saving himself for when the team really needed him.

jonne99 wrote:Just trying to figure out all this "quit talk." (and yes, i watched every cavs playoff game this year and last year and the year before)what if lebron really was hurt during (or before) the boston series?

If Bronbron was that hurt then he should have come out and said it. Why?

1) Fans wouldn't blame him and he wouldn't be upset at the fans for blaming him for sucking.2) It wouldn't hurt his FA stock as much as playing like total shit.3) It would have curtailed the ridiculously stupid Gloria/Delonte rumor that is so full of logical holes that it makes the Swiss envious.

He doesn't understand the 'no excuses' mantra. That doesn't mean you hold everything back from the public. It means you be honest with the fans of your play and let them know what's affecting you and still going out, trying your damnedest, and not letting those issues be used as excuses.

Lebron's lack of dealing with injuries throughout his career hindered his ability to handle the PR associated with this.

Also as noted he added pressure to his teammates and his front office/coach by not declaring his intentions this free agent season. So any comments by him about only being concerned with 'winning' now get thrown out the window. It always has been about money with Lebron and it always will be. Hopefully he recognizes that with the current financial market in the US and the current financial situation of his major sponsors and his league that he's going to bring in the most guaranteed money by staying with Cleveland and that the affect on his bottom line through outside sources of income including sponsorships and networked business dealings won't be significantly different regardless of his team.

Because of that I think he's still signing with Cleveland and people who have been fooled into believing that he really is interested in signing with the club that has the best shot of 'winning' are going to look fairly silly. Lebron's priorties are and always have been:

1) Money2) Respect3) Winning

Just keep in mind that all three of those things are intertwined. Winning begets Respect which begets more money but ultimately when Lebrons career is done he will care more about having a billion dollars in the bank then he will care about having 2 championship rings instead of 5.

He plays basketball because it was his best chance to make billions. If it was just about the sport or winning he would be playing in the NFL.

I had a friend in college who played for one of the more storied coaches in Ohio high school history at one of the high profile AAA programs in the 70's and 80's. His senior year they had a dynamite team and made it to the state finals. Morning of the finals, some of the guys were doing what cats did in that day. Think "Dazed and Confused". Their stud player decides to partake .... for the first time. And he looked alot like Bron in game 5.

So that's my theory. Bron was stoned.

SD:

Either that or sleep walking feeling sorry for himself after coming to the realization he could no longer hide the fact his mammy was a hoe.

For all the fame ad fortune , Lebron is mentally fragile , when it comes to that <skank>She was a trifling dog when she had him unable to even recount who his real dad was , and Lebron goes into Micheal Jackson fantasy land when he recalls his childhood experience's for public consumption.

The kid was living on the street fending for himself while she was out hoe in and crackin , yet in Akron during that ignorant MVP acceptance crapolla extravaganza he blows smoke up are asses about how she was allways there and was such a rock for him to lean on and grow up around.

The Cleveland Akron media has been covering up her stupid meanderings and stumblings all along

To blame the Cavs and to throw the team under the bus for that Bitches trifling ways is beyond the pale

He played like a petulant child in that series .

Didn't matter if his Mammy was fuckin donkeys and suckin sheep dick , had nothing to do with the game.

A big part of Akron knows all about her too. It's a real shame his uncle is never mentioned, especially by him. He's the one who raised LBJ. His mom had nothing to do with it.

as much as I like watching him play, and what he's done for the Cavs, I have never picked up a book or movie about him, because it's all a big bunch of bullshit. I've met her, and have more respect for the cockroaches crawling across the floor of their old "house" than I do her.

Sticking up for family is admirable, but everyone with half a brain sees right through it. Personally if everyone knew where he REALLY came from and what he overcame, he would have so much more admiration, but he sacrafices that for her.