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Topic: What did Jesus do on Holy Saturday? (Read 3787 times)

Other Christian thinkers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin disagreed on whether Christ suffered in hell to fully atone for human sinfulness. That question, raised most recently by the late Swiss theologian Hans ur von Balthasar, stirred a fierce theological donnybrook in the Catholic journal First Things several years ago.

Wayne Grudem, a former president of the Evangelical Theological Society, says the confusion and arguments could be ended by correcting the Apostles’ Creed “once and for all” and excising the line about the descent.

“The single argument in its favor seems to be that it has been around so long,” Grudem, a professor at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona, writes in his “Systematic Theology,” a popular textbook in evangelical colleges. “But an old mistake is still a mistake."

Grudem, like Piper, has said that he skips the phrase about Jesus’ descent when reciting the Apostles’ Creed.

But the harrowing of hell remains a central tenet of Eastern Orthodox Christians, who place an icon depicting the descent at the front of their churches as Saturday night becomes Easter Sunday. It remains there, venerated and often kissed, for 40 days.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 07:41:14 PM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Other Christian thinkers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin disagreed on whether Christ suffered in hell to fully atone for human sinfulness. That question, raised most recently by the late Swiss theologian Hans ur von Balthasar, stirred a fierce theological donnybrook in the Catholic journal First Things several years ago.

Wayne Grudem, a former president of the Evangelical Theological Society, says the confusion and arguments could be ended by correcting the Apostles’ Creed “once and for all” and excising the line about the descent.

“The single argument in its favor seems to be that it has been around so long,” Grudem, a professor at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona, writes in his “Systematic Theology,” a popular textbook in evangelical colleges. “But an old mistake is still a mistake."

Grudem, like Piper, has said that he skips the phrase about Jesus’ descent when reciting the Apostles’ Creed.

But the harrowing of hell remains a central tenet of Eastern Orthodox Christians, who place an icon depicting the descent at the front of their churches as Saturday night becomes Easter Sunday. It remains there, venerated and often kissed, for 40 days.

What is the point of creeds when you can just omit whatever parts of them you might choose to?

Other Christian thinkers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin disagreed on whether Christ suffered in hell to fully atone for human sinfulness. That question, raised most recently by the late Swiss theologian Hans ur von Balthasar, stirred a fierce theological donnybrook in the Catholic journal First Things several years ago.

Wayne Grudem, a former president of the Evangelical Theological Society, says the confusion and arguments could be ended by correcting the Apostles’ Creed “once and for all” and excising the line about the descent.

“The single argument in its favor seems to be that it has been around so long,” Grudem, a professor at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona, writes in his “Systematic Theology,” a popular textbook in evangelical colleges. “But an old mistake is still a mistake."

Grudem, like Piper, has said that he skips the phrase about Jesus’ descent when reciting the Apostles’ Creed.

But the harrowing of hell remains a central tenet of Eastern Orthodox Christians, who place an icon depicting the descent at the front of their churches as Saturday night becomes Easter Sunday. It remains there, venerated and often kissed, for 40 days.

What is the point of creeds when you can just omit whatever parts of them you might choose to?

Some of the more radical Protestants have little use for historical creeds.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

This line is so often omitted in some circles apparently not all laymen know its part of The Apostles Creed.

Cute story: Imagine my wife and me as visitors (strangers) to a small quiet Church a few years back. One of those Churches that graciously welcome guests by ushering visitors to a pew toward the front surrounded by members of the congregation. It was warm and nice. I was pleased they were going to recite The Creed. (we don’t do it every Sunday at the Church I pray) So we all begin in unison but at the pause where ‘He descended into Hell’ belongs imagine my voice alone carrying through the congregation. The turned heads and expressions were priceless! My wife would have crawled under the pew if she could have. If you are ignorant to the fact it belongs there can you imagine what they must have been thinking! Afterwards my wife pointed out all I had to do was read along with the projector screen and I would have realized… LOL

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

These so-called scholars blather on, trying to reinvent the wheel, calling Christ's descent into hades "an old mistake". So sad. So arrogant.

Christ decended into Hell to defeat and break the bonds of death and to raise the righteoous eg Adam and Eve, prophets and the faithful. Christ also decended into Hell to remind Satan and his angels that He is still God of all and His dominance is everywhere. ( a real downer for the the devil and his angels. Talks about the destruction of pride and self importance here. )

Other Christian thinkers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin disagreed on whether Christ suffered in hell to fully atone for human sinfulness. That question, raised most recently by the late Swiss theologian Hans ur von Balthasar, stirred a fierce theological donnybrook in the Catholic journal First Things several years ago.

Wayne Grudem, a former president of the Evangelical Theological Society, says the confusion and arguments could be ended by correcting the Apostles’ Creed “once and for all” and excising the line about the descent.

“The single argument in its favor seems to be that it has been around so long,” Grudem, a professor at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona, writes in his “Systematic Theology,” a popular textbook in evangelical colleges. “But an old mistake is still a mistake."

Grudem, like Piper, has said that he skips the phrase about Jesus’ descent when reciting the Apostles’ Creed.

But the harrowing of hell remains a central tenet of Eastern Orthodox Christians, who place an icon depicting the descent at the front of their churches as Saturday night becomes Easter Sunday. It remains there, venerated and often kissed, for 40 days.

The thing I think this article misses is a good sense of Christ's omnipresence. Assuming Hades and Paradise were two different places, which in itself is debatable, one who recognizes Christ's omnipresence as it is proclaimed in some of the prayers of the Divine Liturgy would have to recognize the He could have been in Hades and Paradise at the same time. I've never figured out why some Protestants just don't get this. (It's the same argument I hear as to why Jesus cannot be bodily present in the Eucharist if He is also bodily present in heaven.)

Note, when we recite the Apostle's Creed, we do say hell. Wrong as well?

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I'll let you look up the Latin words for why you are wrong. Consider it an early Easter Egg

I've always read inferos as hell. I do know some Latin and thats what I always read it. But if Im wrong, then I'd love to be corrected. I'd apprecaite it

My point to Peter had to do with his penchant for pointing out "fallacies" by their Latin names.

Hades is "kosher", if you understand what it is.

This is a time when using the Greek probably makes sense, since Hell and Hades have gotten so screwed up in English in relation to this issue.

Frankly, when it comes to matters after "life", I rarely see much of anyone being too coherent.

A lot of what flies is marked too heavily by, yes, Platonism.

The place to start here is to define what death is. The fact it is existed at one time, no longer does, and how that insight informs the state of the person after life within time as we typically experience it.

The place to start here is to define what death is. The fact it is existed at one time, no longer does,

Death is the moment when the blood stops circulating ((Leviticus "the life is in the blood"), when the person stops breathing (Genesis: "God breathed into him the breath of life"), and the spirit (or soul) is separated from the body (James "As the body without the spirit is dead..."). I could ramble on giving a good number of Bible references for this.

There seems to be a brief period when it is not irreversible - the widow's child the prophet raised, the little girl Jesus raised, Eutychus whom Paul raised, were all recalled. Then the moment passes, and the soul goes to Paradise (if a believer) or Hell/Hades if an unbeliever, there to await the resurrection of the body, followed by life and glory, or judgement and the lake of fire.

That is a very bald summary: one could give a much longer Bible study on it.

Death remains "the last enemy".

« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 02:55:09 PM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Well, Moses and Lazarus could look at the guy suffering torment. There might have been a gulf, but they were in the same place.

Would the Ontology that the flames of Hell are not material but nothing other than the light of God come into that debate? Those that love God see that light as Love, Truth, purification. Those that do not, see that light as torment. (John 3:19) That Hell is not merely a place but a state of ones soul. That indicates to me, at least the possibility, that it could be one logistical place with two separate perceptions. On the other hand I can see the Light of God transending anywhere and everywhere thus hardly limited to one logistical place. IDK truly looking for thoughts on that.

In Christ,

Scott

« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:15:25 PM by alanscott »

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Assuming Hades and Paradise were two different places, which in itself is debatable,

Two questions:

1) Why do you write "were", not "are"?

2) How is that a debatable matter?

Mr Young- the debate is if Hades is to be understood in the same sense as Gehenna, and thus the opposite of Paradise; or if Gehenna and Paradise are two "locations" of the region of Hades (Hades in this sense understood as the Greek translation of Hebrew Sheol). The usage of the Fathers argues strongly for the latter definition.

As for the "were"/"are"- at Christ's harrowing of hell (or Hades, I just like the poetic feel of the English term) the faithful dead were led from Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and to the throne-room of Heaven.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

the debate is if Hades is to be understood in the same sense as Gehenna, and thus the opposite of Paradise; or if Gehenna and Paradise are two "locations" of the region of Hades

My own idea - probably not universally held - is that prior to the Harrowing of Hell, all went to the rather shadowy existence called Hades or Sheol; but that now believers and unbelievers go to two quite different places - one being the presence of Christ ("which is far better"), the other being separation from God in hell, where they await judgement.

I have always taught that when Christ "descended into hell" and then rose and ascended, he took with him the righteous dead, released from Sheol/Hades/hell; and that his death, resurrection and ascension have opened the way for all subsequently dying believers into the presence of God.

However, as regards believers, I teach and preach little about this, because I believe that the scriptures direct our hope to the resurrection at Christ's Coming, not to the intermediate state, about which we are given very little information.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:50:18 PM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

the debate is if Hades is to be understood in the same sense as Gehenna, and thus the opposite of Paradise; or if Gehenna and Paradise are two "locations" of the region of Hades

My own idea - probably not universally held - is that prior to the Harrowing of Hell, all went to the rather shadowy existence called Hades or Sheol; but that now believers and unbelievers go to two quite different places - one being the presence of Christ ("which is far better"), the other being separation from God in hell, where they await judgement.

I have always taught that when Christ "descended into hell" and then rose and ascended, he took with him the righteous dead, released from Sheol/Hades/hell; and that his death, resurrection and ascension have opened the way for all subsequently dying believers into the presence of God.

However, as regards believers, I teach and preach little about this, because I believe that the scriptures direct our hope to the resurrection at Christ's Coming, not to the intermediate state, about which we are given very little information.

That's unfortunate that you feel you are limited to talk on this subject to your congregations. The harrowing of hades is such a joyous and magnificent Christian truth, one to which all believers can look towards and find hope in the resurrection in Christ [edit] and indeed come to the fullness of the understanding of Christ conquering/trampling death by death.[/edit]

unfortunate that you feel you are limited to talk on this subject to your congregations. The harrowing of hades is such a joyous and magnificent Christian truth, one to which all believers can look towards and find hope in the resurrection in Christ

Perhaps I wrote unclearly. I meant, I do not spend much time on the intermediate state, but rather try to direct people's hope to the Lord's Return and the resurrection at that time. But also, whilst I agree with you that the harrowing of hades is such a joyous and magnificent Christian truth, it is still looking back to what happened to Old Testament believers - and even they looked in faith to the day when they would "rise again to a better life" (Hebrews 11.35). That is what I concentrate on.

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

I cannot find such a being in scripture, though at various times in both the Old and New Testaments, an angel is commissioned by God to bring death in certain situations. So I would say, No, death is not a person, but it is still right to call it the last enemy. If one were to say "Cancer is an enemy", one would not be implying that cancer is a person. Hebrews 2 speaks about "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil" (verse 14).

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

The place to start here is to define what death is. The fact it is existed at one time, no longer does,

Death is the moment when the blood stops circulating ((Leviticus "the life is in the blood"), when the person stops breathing (Genesis: "God breathed into him the breath of life"), and the spirit (or soul) is separated from the body (James "As the body without the spirit is dead..."). I could ramble on giving a good number of Bible references for this.

There seems to be a brief period when it is not irreversible - the widow's child the prophet raised, the little girl Jesus raised, Eutychus whom Paul raised, were all recalled. Then the moment passes, and the soul goes to Paradise (if a believer) or Hell/Hades if an unbeliever, there to await the resurrection of the body, followed by life and glory, or judgement and the lake of fire.

I would add the brain shuts down: His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 145:4

Tradition says it is 40 days after death that the soul is assigned to its destination.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Orthros of Holy and Great Saturday commemorates Christ's Descent into Hades, following the Lamentations's, the procession of the Epitaphios is symbolic of His descent. The (Saturday morning) Great Saturday Vesperal Liturgy commemorates Christ's Proclamation to Hades, "Arise O God, and Judge the Earth..."

The Orthros of Holy and Great Saturday commemorates Christ's Descent into Hades, following the Lamentations's, the procession of the Epitaphios is symbolic of His descent. The (Saturday morning) Great Saturday Vesperal Liturgy commemorates Christ's Proclamation to Hades, "Arise O God, and Judge the Earth..."

The place to start here is to define what death is. The fact it is existed at one time, no longer does,

Death is the moment when the blood stops circulating ((Leviticus "the life is in the blood"), when the person stops breathing (Genesis: "God breathed into him the breath of life"), and the spirit (or soul) is separated from the body (James "As the body without the spirit is dead..."). I could ramble on giving a good number of Bible references for this.

There seems to be a brief period when it is not irreversible - the widow's child the prophet raised, the little girl Jesus raised, Eutychus whom Paul raised, were all recalled. Then the moment passes, and the soul goes to Paradise (if a believer) or Hell/Hades if an unbeliever, there to await the resurrection of the body, followed by life and glory, or judgement and the lake of fire.

I would add the brain shuts down: His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 145:4

Tradition says it is 40 days after death that the soul is assigned to its destination.

Why 40 days and is that destination temporary or eternal?

I'm asking because so often the answers are not what i think they might be.

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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

The place to start here is to define what death is. The fact it is existed at one time, no longer does,

Death is the moment when the blood stops circulating ((Leviticus "the life is in the blood"), when the person stops breathing (Genesis: "God breathed into him the breath of life"), and the spirit (or soul) is separated from the body (James "As the body without the spirit is dead..."). I could ramble on giving a good number of Bible references for this.

There seems to be a brief period when it is not irreversible - the widow's child the prophet raised, the little girl Jesus raised, Eutychus whom Paul raised, were all recalled. Then the moment passes, and the soul goes to Paradise (if a believer) or Hell/Hades if an unbeliever, there to await the resurrection of the body, followed by life and glory, or judgement and the lake of fire.

I would add the brain shuts down: His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 145:4

Tradition says it is 40 days after death that the soul is assigned to its destination.

Why 40 days and is that destination temporary or eternal?

I'm asking because so often the answers are not what i think they might be.

1. I'm not so sure it's Tradition that says it so much as it is some monastic traditions. To my knowledge, there is no formal, specific Church teaching on what happens to the soul after death except for the teaching that we will stand judgment before God.2. I think the 40 days may be because that's how long Jesus walked the earth after His death and resurrection before He ascended to the heavens.

Assuming Hades and Paradise were two different places, which in itself is debatable,

Two questions:

1) Why do you write "were", not "are"?

2) How is that a debatable matter?

Mr Young- the debate is if Hades is to be understood in the same sense as Gehenna, and thus the opposite of Paradise; or if Gehenna and Paradise are two "locations" of the region of Hades (Hades in this sense understood as the Greek translation of Hebrew Sheol). The usage of the Fathers argues strongly for the latter definition.

As for the "were"/"are"- at Christ's harrowing of hell (or Hades, I just like the poetic feel of the English term) the faithful dead were led from Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and to the throne-room of Heaven.

(Not just to you, but because this was the last post on topic)

What about in light of 1 Peter:

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18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

(1 Peter 3:18-20 ESV)

That doesn't sound like it was just for the holy dead prior to Jesus's coming.

The "ad inferna" term isn't just from the Vulgate either.

This is a commentary on the Apostle's Creed by a bishop named Rufinus (340-410).

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28. That He descended into hell is also evidently foretold in the Psalms, where it is said, You have brought Me also into the dust of the death. And again, What profit is there in my blood, when I shall have descended into corruption? And again, I descended into the deep mire, where there is no bottom. Moreover, John says, Are You He that shall come (into hell, without doubt), or do we look for another? Whence also Peter says that Christ being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the Spirit which dwells in Him, descended to the spirits who were shut up in prison, who in the days of Noah believed not, to preach unto them; where also what He did in hell is declared. Moreover, the Lord says by the Prophet, as though speaking of the future, You will not leave my soul in hell, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption. Which again, in prophetic language he speaks of as actually fulfilled, O Lord, You have brought my soul out of hell: You have saved me from them that go down into the pit. There follows next—

"et descendit ad inferos" is the most used version. Both are grammatically correct btw, but one is more usual.

"Descendit ad inferna" is what is used in the Creed of Aquileia, which I quoted in the same post, btw.

AND

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The professions of faith that explicitly mention Christ's descent likewise differ in their wording of that article of Faith. Some say, descendit ad inferna, others, ad infernos or ad inferos. There is testimony from the fourth century for both the forms ad inferna and ad inferos; ad infernos appears to be a later and rarer form. As the three terms have similar functions in the creeds, they appear to be fairly interchangeable in this context;

The Orthodox Church's teaching in this matter, among "theologoumena"---"theological teachings", not doctrinal, is that the soul receives a "foretaste," of what they will receive at the Final Judgement, "the awesome judgement...of Christ."

the other being separation from God in hell, where they await judgement.

I would have to disagree with this because God is omnipresent and exists everywhere. Likewise, I cannot quote anything off the back, but the scriptures seem to indicate that hiding from God or escaping from Him is impossible because He is everywhere.

I'm reading "Christ the Conqueror of Hell" by Metropolitan Hilarion. Very good book. He uses the Bible and other early Christian texts to present the Orthodox view of what happened. I think it's a great book that provides a lot of insight.

from what I can tell on the teachings of the Church, there was no suffering by Christ

Ahem. You may have to rethink that opinion. Crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, He suffered and was buried. It's in the Nicene Creed, no less. And the Holy Week hymnography makes it clear that He did, indeed, physically suffer. If He did not, He would have been less than fully human.

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No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to PM me or email me at the address in my profile.