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i actually tried the test on my PF500, which does have string resonance, but it's not always working unless i hit the key a little harder (with slight sound) when sustain pedal is still down. actually, the sostenuto pedal on mine works as on a grand anyway.

If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue?

If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue? [/b]

jscomposer
500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down

Quote:

Originally posted by CTPianotech:When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with.

I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though. [/b]

Just got off the phone with Rich from Shawn's Piano, and the pRP800 failed this test.

jscomposer
500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down

Quote:

Originally posted by GTBannah: O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation? [/b]

I use it in Rachmaninoff's Prelude in B minor, in Grieg's Concerto in A minor depending on what mood I'm in, and I use it in some of my own music. The main reason I developed it was because my DP doesn't support sostenuto. But you're right, so far I've only used it in slower passages.

Come to think of it though, this technique could be used (and perhaps with greater ease than sostenuto) in a situation where you play a fast run and then want to sustain only certain notes from that run in the next phrase.

Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. [Roll Eyes] )

Quote:

I own a Yamaha YPD-140 (without string resonance), which is a very new model released in 2008, and unfortunately didn´t pass the test.

jscomposer
500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down

Quote:

Originally posted by Geof175: Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX. [/b]

Yeah, doesn't work on Yamaha's flagship portable CP300 either. But at least it supports a full 3 pedals. The CP33 only has a single aux pedal input. It amazes me how at this late stage of the digital piano game they still cheap out on some of the most basic features.

It is my very strong suspicion that Pianoteq will only produce what the keyboard will transmit in terms of signal.

In other words, if your keyboard doesn't "pass the test" outlined by jscomposer, and thus can't transmit the signal to Pianoteq, then Pianoteq can't produce the effect.

It relies on what is transmitted by the keyboard.

My Roland KR7 (superseded by the KR107), fails the test; but on the other hand it transmits continuous damper control values from zero to 127 - not many keyboards can do this. And I find this feature quite useful, particularly at the end of a song where one would slowly drop the dampers (on an acoustic).

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

I'm trying to understand where exactly is the sostenuto effect with this. You hold ALL the damper with the pedal, then you sustain the dampers of the notes you hold down, and release the sustain. On a real piano this seems... bizzare since you still have to keep your hand on the notes, in order to sustain them. The idea of the sostenuto is to hold the selected notes, but without having your hands on them... This is NOT the case.

In your example you are just hitting the notes, with pedal, then take the pedal off practially (either if you lift and put the down the hands again).

Don't have my PX110 at home anymore, so can't do any tests, but my hunch is that it has to do with some MIDI signal... :-/ But will have to run some tests in my studio for further research purposes...

Yeah BazC, same with my PF500 and CP33. Pianoteq3.5 just queries whether the keys are pushed down and if they are behaves appropriately. I imagine this would work with any midi controller and Pianoteq 3.5.

Kurzweil 2600xs failed, but I have a hard time using the word "failed" as I would opt for sympathetic resonance over a rather awkward method of achieving sostenuto for which I have a pedal. Also, I doesn't matter how lightly I press the keys, the notes are always sounded - granted at a greatly reduced volume.

A digital piano is no less "real" than an acoustic. If you want all the features of an acoustic piano, then buy an acoustic piano. I can list a thousand features and benefits of digital pianos that no acoustic could ever hope to achieve (or should I say they would "fail the test"), but what's the point? They are very different instruments.

If your stated method of achieving the sostenuto effect is that important to you, I dare say you have failed to purchase the right instrument.

People would be much better served by exploiting the attributes of the instruments at hand.

Bottom line, Acoustic or Digital, if it can get you "in-the-zone", then it's a worthy instrument.

I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

Now, you might ask, "What's the point? Just use the sostenuto pedal!" Well, mine doesn't have one, and I don't feel like spending money on a keyboard that has all sorts of bells and whistles I don't need, and that still fails on this feature. Plus, this technique is more flexible than using the sostenuto pedal. (Though I do wish my P80 had a sostenuto function, because I could use that as well! )

Try it on yours and let me know what happens!

Thanks jscomposer, if you are still out there, for bringing up this point.

I realize this is a dated thread, but, IMO, this is still a relevant concern/topic.

My Kawai MP10, with software version "V1.04", is not capable of doing this - and yes, I am disappointed.

On 10/24/12, Kawai James posted a heads-up notice for all Kawai MP10 owners for the minor update v1.05 - and thank you James for doing that!

I have not updated my MP10 yet because I need to get a USB memory device. However, just based on the description of the v1.05 minor update that James gave, it (v1.05) will not remedy this problem.

The reason I am "disappointed", and the reason I call this a "problem", is that this may be what is causing a problem I have notice that occurs occasionally on my Kawai MP10. And that is, occasionally some combination of actuating the sustain pedal and keying, the "sound" disappears completely. Another way of stating it is that there is just no sound - zip. And of course on an acoustic piano, at least from my experiences, this does not happen.

Another thing that I have now noticed about the functionality of the sustatin pedal software/algorithm on my Kawai MP10, is as follows. Without depressing the sustain pedal, when I softly press down and hold a lower key (maybe a bass C) (without activating its sampled sounds), and then "play" another key (maybe a C one octave higher) it activates a sample to simulate a slight resonance for the lower C key, which I am still holding down. Now, the infidelity occurs when I do the same thing, except I first hold the sustain pedal down before I do the above. In this scenario the cross string resonance does not occur. Which again is not how an acoustic piano would work.

Now I do fully realize that the Kawai MP10 is not an acoustic Kawai Grand. Yet they (Kawai) have done such a great job, IMO, of modeling so many aspects (tactile, auditory, timbre, playability) of the acoustic and digitals keyboards it represents (key action, sampling, tactile feel of the keys, damper resonace, let off action, several preset temperments, & stretch tuning - to name only a few). So I'm at a loss to understand why they either overlooked both of these needed "sustain" features, or just chose not to include them.

Now this problem with the sustain algorithm may, or may not be the cause of the problem I have experienced with my MP10 (as described above). However, given the many features that Kawai has sucessfully modeled in the MP10, I would be quite surprised if both of these "sustain algorithm blackholes" could not be remedied with a software patch.

Especially since apparently other DP manufactures can at least sucessfully implement the first one, and have chosen to include this feature in their modeling of acoustics which use the sustain feature.