I'm sure i'm not the only one who has thought this, but why isn't the woman in the avatar on the main page holding her daughters' hand with her right hand? Leut. Dan from "Forest Gump" got himself some awesome titanium fake legs.

In my opinion, the picture is supposed to signify the fact that things can't exactly go back to the way they were before after you had one of your limbs severed. I personally knew some amputees who had difficulty re-adjusting to their daily life with a physical hindrance which could, in this case, include the definition of "suffering" in there leading to the question of "Why Won't God Heal Amputees" if he is so just, loving and all-powerful as Christians today claim?

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Sometimes, I think that it really comes down to learning how God thinks and acts rather than bellyaching about what He's not doing for us when we have great minds and ability to impact our environments and situations.

It is thanks to ourselves, and other circumstances, that we have our own solutions and our own problems.

But once you start talking about a just, loving, all-knowing and all-powerful creator of the universe who watches over us, you begin to question what he's (why not a she?) doing for us, which is nothing really leading to various proofs and problems that point out the very very possibility of such a god not existing. The question is not "why me"? in most cases, the question is rather, "why them?". Read any news for just five minutes and you will see where I'm going with this.

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I'm not thrilled with the way He does things, but I have to give him credit at least for being more intelligent. I'm hoping he knows what he's doing. I suppose time will tell.

Are you talking about the same god that is proudly homophobic, misogynistic, ignorant in basic biology/physics/everything, egotistic, incredibly incompetent and incredibly stupid so much to the extent that he actually gets pissed off at humans doing what he intended them for to do?

If so, my advice: Don't even hope for a miracle in time. Make your own life, your own solution, everything.

i really like your stuff here. i don't have time for the discussion now but i hope to get some time in a day or two to write. talk to ya later.

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

I know this seems trite or even shallow, but i think things that are developed inside us because of suffering are more important to God than that we be healed and even that doesn't seem a sufficient enough an answer.....

You're quite right. Trite, shallow, and insufficient. Don't you feel really sorry for those people born into a life of wealth and health and love, who breeze through their lives without the opportunity to learn and develop? Poor souls, no paradise for them. Better by far to be a poor peasant in Africa, watching your children die of nalnutrition - they will learn and develop MUCH more than anyone in the Western world.

Serious question: if you believe ANY of the above, why do you not give all your possessions away and go and live in one of those impoverished Third World countries? You'd learn and develop MUCH more than you will in your relatively comfortable life here. With eternal salvation at risk, can you REALLY take the chance of not "developing" enough?

.....this is my opinion, not about us as much as we think. There are those watching and when this epic motion picture comes to an end, they will have gotten something out of it, like, obedience to authority.....What if getting that particular point across was so important to the God of the Bible/Creation (my opinion its the same being) that he is allowing this huge thing to take place for the aha moments or moment. You know when you see a super well-written movie come together and let's just say it has a good ending and you are just left with a great feeling and a lot of insights and epiphanies, etc. I think that's worth it. If it means eternal life and harmony and understanding in that life.

Except.....didn't Jesus DIE to save us all? Sounds pretty much like it IS about us. We - humanity - are the most important thing in god's creation if you believe the Bible....created to have dominion, floods, plagues, salvation through death......yep, ALL about us. That's why the Bible is all about people and what god wants for/from them. So I don't think your point makes any sense from that point of view.

If its all one big rich tapestry that will all make sense at the end.....? Well, maybe - but NOT if one single person ends up in eternal torment because it is "necessary to the plot". Sorry, but that's just evil.

Final point - your arguments seem to be that "we are born in state X, and as a result of experiences we have, we change to state Y - and we need to be state Y to get into heaven". Paraphrasing, obviously, but that seems to be the gist. But consider this list.....

1) We need to be state Y to get into heaven.2) God is good and loving and wants us all to get into heaven.3) God has the power to create in any manner he chooses.4) God has the power to affect the world in any manner he chooses.

If you take ALL those assumptions as true, then there is no reason at all for your god to not have just (a) created us all in state Y, outside the gates of heaven, or (b) transmogrifies us to state Y at the point of death, or (c) makes the route to state Y crystal clear and obvious to all.

Trouble is, none of the above scenarios apply - so we need to discount one or more of the above. According to the Bible, (3) and (4) are givens, documented by actions. But point (2).....well, for point (2), all we have is his words.....and a whole lot of actions that give those words the lie.

Whichever way I come towards it, the god you choose to follow comes out as an evil, manipulative monster. Yet you choose to worship it. Why?

dying isn't the most exciting thing to think about, but let's not confuse that with fear of dying. I personally am just a little bit this side of narcissistic to go on to glory, but i truly would find it a restful experience, so you really can't accuse people of being afraid to die if you haven't interviewed every human being. Too broad of a statement. and who are afraid to live out the one and only life they will ever have. There are many things I could do I suppose, but I really don't do anything I don't want to do now and i don't really not do things i want to. so its not like im missing out on anything. i got to do a lot as a teen, but I truly don't miss it. I miss church. i just didn't want to drag mom there. and i tend to get into trouble. im drawn to it sometimes,b ut its usually just debates like these.

"I personally am but i truly There are many things I could do I suppose, but I really I don't want to do now and i don't really not do things i want to. so its not like im missing out i got to do a lot as a teen, but I truly I miss church. i just didn't want i tend to get into trouble. im drawn to it"

I'm sure i'm not the only one who has thought this, but why isn't the woman in the avatar on the main page holding her daughters' hand with her right hand? Leut. Dan from "Forest Gump" got himself some awesome titanium fake legs.

I noticed what really got him smiling was the woman by his side.

Sometimes, I think that it really comes down to learning how God thinks and acts rather than bellyaching about what He's not doing for us when we have great minds and ability to impact our environments and situations.

I'm not thrilled with the way He does things, but I have to give him credit at least for being more intelligent. I'm hoping he knows what he's doing. I suppose time will tell.

Helene, that's all you got, a "hope" that some imaginary bogeyman will so something? Why hasn't it done anything so far? Unfortunately, you seem to be one more theist who has created their god in their own image, unable to relinquish the fear and greed that seems to keep theists in their god goggles.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Helene, that's all you got, a "hope" that some imaginary bogeyman will so something? Why hasn't it done anything so far? Unfortunately, you seem to be one more theist who has created their god in their own image, unable to relinquish the fear and greed that seems to keep theists in their god goggles.

I have a broken heart and it hurts everyday. I suppose it's better to hurt than be angry, but it takes courage. I'm pretty certain I won't be healed from feeling the pain of others so I make the best of it, and that works for me.

Kubler-Ross identified the five steps for grief you seem to just skip some or some could say that you used your own rational thinking and accepted the thing that, broke your heart, or you could not change. How does this coincide with a GoD? just out of curiosity if your not here to learn why GoD is imaginary, then might I ask what do you hope to learn form from this site since you are learning as you go.

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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

I'm sure i'm not the only one who has thought this, but why isn't the woman in the avatar on the main page holding her daughters' hand with her right hand? Leut. Dan from "Forest Gump" got himself some awesome titanium fake legs.

I noticed what really got him smiling was the woman by his side.

Sometimes, I think that it really comes down to learning how God thinks and acts rather than bellyaching about what He's not doing for us when we have great minds and ability to impact our environments and situations.

I'm not thrilled with the way He does things, but I have to give him credit at least for being more intelligent. I'm hoping he knows what he's doing. I suppose time will tell.

Helene, that's all you got, a "hope" that some imaginary bogeyman will so something? Why hasn't it done anything so far? Unfortunately, you seem to be one more theist who has created their god in their own image, unable to relinquish the fear and greed that seems to keep theists in their god goggles.

You know, i've managed to look at some of the really lengthy stuff people have written in response to things I've said, and there really is a lot of opinion to what is said by atheists and other nontheist people. I really can't respond to the opinion part of the discussion because it's personal to the person writing. God's not imaginary to me. He's imaginary to you. I have the proof i need.

No matter what anyone says to me here or anywhere else, the experiences i've had can't be erased or removed from my being simply because someone else has an opposing opinion or experience or viewpoint or whatever. I realize now that you think you're freeing me from something. Without any sarcasm: i've been where you are and it's better here.

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

I have a broken heart and it hurts everyday. I suppose it's better to hurt than be angry, but it takes courage. I'm pretty certain I won't be healed from feeling the pain of others so I make the best of it, and that works for me.

Kubler-Ross identified the five steps for grief you seem to just skip some or some could say that you used your own rational thinking and accepted the thing that, broke your heart, or you could not change. How does this coincide with a GoD? just out of curiosity if your not here to learn why GoD is imaginary, then might I ask what do you hope to learn form from this site since you are learning as you go.

i understand grief, but at the same time as i write this and watch my Mother sleep, my heart feels good. She's being cared for for the first time in her life. Her trust was so far gone that it was beneficial for her to lose her will so she could be loved by us. Until that, she couldn't. I see her smile so much now and I know she knows she's loved..and for the first time in her life. When I think that I had something to do with that, i understand more. but it's subjective and personal and i'm okay with that.

I'm here to see how others think and how they draw their conclusions about their lives and experiences. i'm here because i can be.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:11:54 AM by helenecombs »

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

I know this seems trite or even shallow, but i think things that are developed inside us because of suffering are more important to God than that we be healed and even that doesn't seem a sufficient enough an answer.....

You're quite right. Trite, shallow, and insufficient. Don't you feel really sorry for those people born into a life of wealth and health and love, who breeze through their lives without the opportunity to learn and develop? Poor souls, no paradise for them. Better by far to be a poor peasant in Africa, watching your children die of nalnutrition - they will learn and develop MUCH more than anyone in the Western world.

Serious question: if you believe ANY of the above, why do you not give all your possessions away and go and live in one of those impoverished Third World countries? You'd learn and develop MUCH more than you will in your relatively comfortable life here. With eternal salvation at risk, can you REALLY take the chance of not "developing" enough?

.....this is my opinion, not about us as much as we think. There are those watching and when this epic motion picture comes to an end, they will have gotten something out of it, like, obedience to authority.....What if getting that particular point across was so important to the God of the Bible/Creation (my opinion its the same being) that he is allowing this huge thing to take place for the aha moments or moment. You know when you see a super well-written movie come together and let's just say it has a good ending and you are just left with a great feeling and a lot of insights and epiphanies, etc. I think that's worth it. If it means eternal life and harmony and understanding in that life.

Except.....didn't Jesus DIE to save us all? Sounds pretty much like it IS about us. We - humanity - are the most important thing in god's creation if you believe the Bible....created to have dominion, floods, plagues, salvation through death......yep, ALL about us. That's why the Bible is all about people and what god wants for/from them. So I don't think your point makes any sense from that point of view.

If its all one big rich tapestry that will all make sense at the end.....? Well, maybe - but NOT if one single person ends up in eternal torment because it is "necessary to the plot". Sorry, but that's just evil.

Final point - your arguments seem to be that "we are born in state X, and as a result of experiences we have, we change to state Y - and we need to be state Y to get into heaven". Paraphrasing, obviously, but that seems to be the gist. But consider this list.....

1) We need to be state Y to get into heaven.2) God is good and loving and wants us all to get into heaven.3) God has the power to create in any manner he chooses.4) God has the power to affect the world in any manner he chooses.

If you take ALL those assumptions as true, then there is no reason at all for your god to not have just (a) created us all in state Y, outside the gates of heaven, or (b) transmogrifies us to state Y at the point of death, or (c) makes the route to state Y crystal clear and obvious to all.

Trouble is, none of the above scenarios apply - so we need to discount one or more of the above. According to the Bible, (3) and (4) are givens, documented by actions. But point (2).....well, for point (2), all we have is his words.....and a whole lot of actions that give those words the lie.

Whichever way I come towards it, the god you choose to follow comes out as an evil, manipulative monster. Yet you choose to worship it. Why?

my heart does feel very bad for people who suffer. I'm not the most eloquent person i know and my writing doesn't really fully say what I mean. i think salvation is something like a person (meaning everyone) having a million dollars sitting a bank account they don't use. Because they don't realize what they have, they are extremely limited to available resources that could be helping them. It's just an analogy, but hey at least i didn't use goats and farmers n stuff. kessler whiled all the way out on me so i knew i better not go there.

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

I know this seems trite or even shallow, but i think things that are developed inside us because of suffering are more important to God than that we be healed and even that doesn't seem a sufficient enough an answer.....

You're quite right. Trite, shallow, and insufficient. Don't you feel really sorry for those people born into a life of wealth and health and love, who breeze through their lives without the opportunity to learn and develop? Poor souls, no paradise for them. Better by far to be a poor peasant in Africa, watching your children die of nalnutrition - they will learn and develop MUCH more than anyone in the Western world.

Serious question: if you believe ANY of the above, why do you not give all your possessions away and go and live in one of those impoverished Third World countries? You'd learn and develop MUCH more than you will in your relatively comfortable life here. With eternal salvation at risk, can you REALLY take the chance of not "developing" enough?

.....this is my opinion, not about us as much as we think. There are those watching and when this epic motion picture comes to an end, they will have gotten something out of it, like, obedience to authority.....What if getting that particular point across was so important to the God of the Bible/Creation (my opinion its the same being) that he is allowing this huge thing to take place for the aha moments or moment. You know when you see a super well-written movie come together and let's just say it has a good ending and you are just left with a great feeling and a lot of insights and epiphanies, etc. I think that's worth it. If it means eternal life and harmony and understanding in that life.

Except.....didn't Jesus DIE to save us all? Sounds pretty much like it IS about us. We - humanity - are the most important thing in god's creation if you believe the Bible....created to have dominion, floods, plagues, salvation through death......yep, ALL about us. That's why the Bible is all about people and what god wants for/from them. So I don't think your point makes any sense from that point of view.

If its all one big rich tapestry that will all make sense at the end.....? Well, maybe - but NOT if one single person ends up in eternal torment because it is "necessary to the plot". Sorry, but that's just evil.

Final point - your arguments seem to be that "we are born in state X, and as a result of experiences we have, we change to state Y - and we need to be state Y to get into heaven". Paraphrasing, obviously, but that seems to be the gist. But consider this list.....

1) We need to be state Y to get into heaven.2) God is good and loving and wants us all to get into heaven.3) God has the power to create in any manner he chooses.4) God has the power to affect the world in any manner he chooses.

If you take ALL those assumptions as true, then there is no reason at all for your god to not have just (a) created us all in state Y, outside the gates of heaven, or (b) transmogrifies us to state Y at the point of death, or (c) makes the route to state Y crystal clear and obvious to all.

Trouble is, none of the above scenarios apply - so we need to discount one or more of the above. According to the Bible, (3) and (4) are givens, documented by actions. But point (2).....well, for point (2), all we have is his words.....and a whole lot of actions that give those words the lie.

Whichever way I come towards it, the god you choose to follow comes out as an evil, manipulative monster. Yet you choose to worship it. Why?

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helen to anfauglir:he probably already has a pretty good idea of how you work which may be why he's keeping his distance.

anfauglir: Funny.....still, I guess making a joke out of things is easier than having to actually think about them.

it's not difficult to think about things. and i was way outta line with my comment. i really gotta get to that course on communications. anyway...it's difficult to put them in words sometimes especially when there are interruptions. A person has to decide first what are the things people are sayin that are simply opinion or unsubstantiated claims or beliefs. Then, one has to organize their stuff and present it in a logical consistent way. that takes time and effort.

i typically hit every scene like a bull in a china shop, but that's something i'd like to improve on because i like talkin to people and although jokin around is fun...i guess some people don't really appreciate it so much. That matters to me.

Mod: Fixed quotes

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 09:34:53 AM by Anfauglir »

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

No matter what anyone says to me here or anywhere else, the experiences i've had can't be erased or removed from my being simply because someone else has an opposing opinion or experience or viewpoint or whatever. I realize now that you think you're freeing me from something.

my heart does feel very bad for people who suffer. I'm not the most eloquent person i know and my writing doesn't really fully say what I mean. i think salvation is something like a person (meaning everyone) having a million dollars sitting a bank account they don't use. Because they don't realize what they have, they are extremely limited to available resources that could be helping them. It's just an analogy, but hey at least i didn't use goats and farmers n stuff. kessler whiled all the way out on me so i knew i better not go there.

i understand grief, but at the same time as i write this and watch my Mother sleep, my heart feels good. She's being cared for for the first time in her life. Her trust was so far gone that it was beneficial for her to lose her will so she could be loved by us. Until that, she couldn't. I see her smile so much now and I know she knows she's loved..and for the first time in her life. When I think that I had something to do with that, i understand more. but it's subjective and personal and i'm okay with that.

I'm here to see how others think and how they draw their conclusions about their lives and experiences. i'm here because i can be.

It seems to me that you're professing faith in your god and believing it exists purely because of your emotions and other attachments (despite extremely troubling facts of life that contradict it) and not with irrefutable evidence or anything else which rational humans usually demand.

That's fine.

But in the future, please refrain from claiming that the Theory of Evolution has holes when you have no evidence, claim that your god exists when you have no evidence, attempt to prove your god without evidence and so forth.

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Without any sarcasm: i've been where you are and it's better here.

No you have not, and no it is not.

P.S.: Seriously, use the Test Area or attempt to if you're going to jumble up with the quotes.

Helene, that's all you got, a "hope" that some imaginary bogeyman will so something? Why hasn't it done anything so far? Unfortunately, you seem to be one more theist who has created their god in their own image, unable to relinquish the fear and greed that seems to keep theists in their god goggles.

and you seem to have opinionated slander. no more impressive than me.

Logged

"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

No matter what anyone says to me here or anywhere else, the experiences i've had can't be erased or removed from my being simply because someone else has an opposing opinion or experience or viewpoint or whatever. I realize now that you think you're freeing me from something.

my heart does feel very bad for people who suffer. I'm not the most eloquent person i know and my writing doesn't really fully say what I mean. i think salvation is something like a person (meaning everyone) having a million dollars sitting a bank account they don't use. Because they don't realize what they have, they are extremely limited to available resources that could be helping them. It's just an analogy, but hey at least i didn't use goats and farmers n stuff. kessler whiled all the way out on me so i knew i better not go there.

i understand grief, but at the same time as i write this and watch my Mother sleep, my heart feels good. She's being cared for for the first time in her life. Her trust was so far gone that it was beneficial for her to lose her will so she could be loved by us. Until that, she couldn't. I see her smile so much now and I know she knows she's loved..and for the first time in her life. When I think that I had something to do with that, i understand more. but it's subjective and personal and i'm okay with that.

I'm here to see how others think and how they draw their conclusions about their lives and experiences. i'm here because i can be.

It seems to me that you're professing faith in your god and believing it exists purely because of your emotions and other attachments (despite extremely troubling facts of life that contradict it) and not with irrefutable evidence or anything else which rational humans usually demand.

That's fine.

But in the future, please refrain from claiming that the Theory of Evolution has holes when you have no evidence, claim that your god exists when you have no evidence, attempt to prove your god without evidence and so forth.

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Without any sarcasm: i've been where you are and it's better here.

No you have not, and no it is not.

P.S.: Seriously, use the Test Area or attempt to if you're going to jumble up with the quotes.

I don't have to prove evolution is false doctrine. the facts or lack thereof speak for themselves. I think were pretty much done her C. now it's just getting weird. your arguements simply aren't compelling at least for me. bye

I'm sure i'm not the only one who has thought this, but why isn't the woman in the avatar on the main page holding her daughters' hand with her right hand?

I don't know, why didn't the Jesus character leave the blind blind, and the lame lame? Why is he described as actually healing them? Is his omnipotent ass just too tired now?

This is the problem with the whole "Their handicap allows their strength of character to show through and inspire us" nonsense. What was the Jesus character doing when he supposedly healed people? Was he removing their handicap to hide their strength of character so that no one would be inspired?

You can't have it both ways.

according to the rules of the website:

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

You know, i've managed to look at some of the really lengthy stuff people have written in response to things I've said, and there really is a lot of opinion to what is said by atheists and other nontheist people. I really can't respond to the opinion part of the discussion because it's personal to the person writing. God's not imaginary to me. He's imaginary to you. I have the proof i need.

I do like how theists like you automatically go to claims of “slander” when someone tells you that you are wrong and dares to have evidence to support that. It’s not slander, and you should actually look up the meaning of accusations you wish to use *and* support them.

No, Helen, he’s imaginary to everyone. You have no proof or evidence of this god of yours. All theists claim that they have this but what they have is no different than the next. I can feel pretty safe in making the following guesses about your and your life:You grew up in a Christian environment of some degree, especially if you grew up in the US.You were told by people you trusted for good reason, that this god existed.You have decided that any little coincidence or parlor trick is “evidence” that your god exists. You “feel” something when you believe that makes you feel good.

You appear to be just like other theists, especially Christians, and have created your own version of this god so you can feel good about it rather than paying attention to the vileness of this god as presented in the supposed holy book of this religion.

All theists, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Zoroasterian, etc, do the same thing, Helen. They all claim their religion is the only ‘true’ one. Does this make their gods just as “real” as yours? Now, for your claim that your god is real, I need evidence to accept that. And as I have come to expect, theists have none. I was once a Christain and prayed and prayed when I was losing my faith to this god to keep it. Why no response to me, Helen? Why does god do nothing anyone can actually point to?

You can’t even answer honestly asked questions. Why hasn’t your god done anything, Helen? Why do you cling to some “hope” that it will? I understand that hope, having been a Christian myself, but it comes to naught and all of that time and energy you use to pray and to worship are wasted. I know it has to make you feel better when your life is rough as it seems to be right now. Honestly, I’m terrified to think about when I’ll likely have to deal with some of the things you are dealing with. But unfortunately, reality doesn’t care about feelings.

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No matter what anyone says to me here or anywhere else, the experiences i've had can't be erased or removed from my being simply because someone else has an opposing opinion or experience or viewpoint or whatever. I realize now that you think you're freeing me from something. Without any sarcasm: i've been where you are and it's better here.

Perhaps it’s without sarcasm but it isn’t without arrogance and willful ignorance. I’ve been where you’ve been too, Helen and it isn’t any better there at all. Prayers don’t work, you spend all of your time excusing your god for not doing anything. It all becomes a game of you self-editing your prayers so you can cling to your belief. You tell yourself that God “knows best” so *that’s* why he doesn’t answer your prayers. You desperately look for any “sign” to validate your belief. You tell yourself that you aren’t doing “enough” for this god and scrabble to find any purchase you can find.

Your experiences don’t need to be erased or removed but they do need to be looked at with some thought other than the presupposition that some god exists. Your beliefs are nothing unusual and they are nothing special. Many of us have had them at one point. I know it feels “better” that you think that there is some thing that loves you and only you, some all-powerful deity that will take care of you and make all of the suffering “worth” something. It’s a heady draught and I really miss that feeling. However, wishing makes nothing true and suffering is nothing but that, suffering. A omnipotent, supposedly “all-loving” god that would “use” such a thing to teach someone something is sadistic, especially when a theist says that it’s good to have others suffer by this god’s “will” for them so *they* can learn. That’s vicious and sick. I’d rather go to the classic “hell” rather than have anyone be harmed “for” me. You seem to think it’s good for people to be harmed when you say it was “good” for your mother to lose her mind. I find this vile, to be so happy that someone was harmed so she could be “loved” by you. She couldn’t’ be loved by you otherwise?

Also, I’m not sure where you ignorantly attacked evolutionary theory, but I will give you some advice. You need to know what you are attacking, not regurgitating what you’ve been told by someone else. You seem to know nothing about the actual facts about the science behind evolutionary theory. There are huge amounts of evidence and research that support evolutionary theory, evidence you seem to be willfully ignorant of. That science is responsible for the antibiotics you take, Helen, and the food you eat, etc. You hypocritically attack science when it shows your myths are wrong but you have no problem with it when it benefits you.

You are welcome to post here as you will but do not think your claims will not be questioned. You will be expected to support your claims. Ignorance can be helped and no one wants you to be a liar, either inadvertently or intentionally. If you can’t handle that, then you should realize that your time on the forum will be limited by your own actions. You will find no validation of your beliefs here and we certainly aren’t here to be willing punching bags for an unhappy theist. Take a moment to learn and understand our positions and we can be very supportive community for a lot of real problems. You seem to need that.

Serious question: if you believe ANY of the above (that suffering increases your chance of salvation), why do you not give all your possessions away and go and live in one of those impoverished Third World countries? You'd learn and develop MUCH more than you will in your relatively comfortable life here. With eternal salvation at risk, can you REALLY take the chance of not "developing" enough?

Will you - can you - answer that? It seems not....you've been asked before what exactly are the "holes" in evolution, and not deigned to respond. You have also been asked for evidence of your god, and said in so many words that there is none, you just "feel like" you want to believe. When you say stuff like that, how can you expect to have ANY credibility when you say:

I don't have to prove evolution is false doctrine. the facts or lack thereof speak for themselves.

Seems like there are no facts about the god you worship, but you just choose to 'cos it feels right.....but you're more than happy to discount all the evidence for evolution that you've not bothered to look at or try to understand? Double standards, much?

I think probably you ARE done here, as you seem either unwilling or unable to actually answer any questions being put to you, nor any willingness to address the gaps in your understanding - or evn to want to articulate what those gaps may be. If that's the way you intend to continue, then there is very little point in you sticking around.

"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne

Helene it sounds like you aren't willing to address people's valid points or posts. Your posts are just "DURRR I BELIEVE IN GOD. DON'T ASK WHY I JUST DO OK!!!!111". So, why waste your own time or everyone elses?

First off, to the question about why the woman doesn't hold her child's hand with the good one. I'm sure she does most of the time. But it's a symbol, and I feel that the others have already adequately explained that. To get personal, I have some limitations in my dominant arm. They're complications from breast cancer surgery and can, depending on what I've been doing, limit my range of motion and/or cause severe burning pain. It's called lymphatic cording or axillary web syndrome if anyone cares to look it up. And it's a royal pain in the ass. Am I learning anything from it? Have I become a better person because of it. Hell no. All it's done is cause suffering, worry about my capacity to make a living, and fears about my future health. Perhaps obviously, those feelings would be even worse if the arm were gone entirely.

People who hear of my cancer battle ask me, "but don't you find that you've learned a lot about what's important to you?" Sigh. No. I've learned that life sucks sometimes, that a hell of a lot of people are suffering from a horrible disease. And that life might be short. All that stuff about freedom and being yourself and finding out what's important to me? I was ALREADY working quite well on those questions, and making a ton of progress on them. UNTIL I got stopped in my tracks by cancer. It stole 9 months of my life in terms of treatment. It stole major parts of the last two years in trying to come to terms with my limitations and trauma. So, no, it didn't improve my life. Not one iota. So now I have a greater understanding of people going through cancer. Yeah, so what? If cancer didn't exist I'd not need that knowledge.

If it turns out that there is an abrahamic-type god up there I've got a serious bone to pick with him.

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If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

i understand grief, but at the same time as i write this and watch my Mother sleep, my heart feels good. She's being cared for for the first time in her life. Her trust was so far gone that it was beneficial for her to lose her will so she could be loved by us. Until that, she couldn't. I see her smile so much now and I know she knows she's loved..and for the first time in her life. When I think that I had something to do with that, i understand more. but it's subjective and personal and i'm okay with that.

I'm here to see how others think and how they draw their conclusions about their lives and experiences. i'm here because i can be.

Well of course you feel good about takeing care of your mother, we all would in that situation, but as time takes its course how do you expect intercede to GoD when he allowed her to get the way she is now. IMO, You did have something to do with it because a majority of people would not want to take care of their elderly parents, she knows she is loved because you did not do that to her. If you are here to draw conclusions about lives and experiences from the people on this site then may I suggest that you not make foolish remarks about thing that you may or may not know about. Instead, ask why we lost our religion and why it is more rational to live without religion.

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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

I'm sure i'm not the only one who has thought this, but why isn't the woman in the avatar on the main page holding her daughters' hand with her right hand? Leut. Dan from "Forest Gump" got himself some awesome titanium fake legs.

I noticed what really got him smiling was the woman by his side.

Sometimes, I think that it really comes down to learning how God thinks and acts rather than bellyaching about what He's not doing for us when we have great minds and ability to impact our environments and situations.

I'm not thrilled with the way He does things, but I have to give him credit at least for being more intelligent. I'm hoping he knows what he's doing. I suppose time will tell.

Helene, that's all you got, a "hope" that some imaginary bogeyman will so something? Why hasn't it done anything so far? Unfortunately, you seem to be one more theist who has created their god in their own image, unable to relinquish the fear and greed that seems to keep theists in their god goggles.

You know, i've managed to look at some of the really lengthy stuff people have written in response to things I've said, and there really is a lot of opinion to what is said by atheists and other nontheist people. I really can't respond to the opinion part of the discussion because it's personal to the person writing. God's not imaginary to me. He's imaginary to you. I have the proof i need.

No matter what anyone says to me here or anywhere else, the experiences i've had can't be erased or removed from my being simply because someone else has an opposing opinion or experience or viewpoint or whatever. I realize now that you think you're freeing me from something. Without any sarcasm: i've been where you are and it's better here.

substitute the word God for Allah or any other God in any other region of the world,there are idiots everywhere

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

You know, i've managed to look at some of the really lengthy stuff people have written in response to things I've said, and there really is a lot of opinion to what is said by atheists and other nontheist people. I really can't respond to the opinion part of the discussion because it's personal to the person writing. God's not imaginary to me. He's imaginary to you. I have the proof i need.

I do like how theists like you automatically go to claims of “slander” when someone tells you that you are wrong and dares to have evidence to support that. It’s not slander, and you should actually look up the meaning of accusations you wish to use *and* support them.

No, Helen, he’s imaginary to everyone. You have no proof or evidence of this god of yours. All theists claim that they have this but what they have is no different than the next. I can feel pretty safe in making the following guesses about your and your life:You grew up in a Christian environment of some degree, especially if you grew up in the US.You were told by people you trusted for good reason, that this god existed.You have decided that any little coincidence or parlor trick is “evidence” that your god exists. You “feel” something when you believe that makes you feel good.

You appear to be just like other theists, especially Christians, and have created your own version of this god so you can feel good about it rather than paying attention to the vileness of this god as presented in the supposed holy book of this religion.

All theists, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Zoroasterian, etc, do the same thing, Helen. They all claim their religion is the only ‘true’ one. Does this make their gods just as “real” as yours? Now, for your claim that your god is real, I need evidence to accept that. And as I have come to expect, theists have none. I was once a Christain and prayed and prayed when I was losing my faith to this god to keep it. Why no response to me, Helen? Why does god do nothing anyone can actually point to?

You can’t even answer honestly asked questions. Why hasn’t your god done anything, Helen? Why do you cling to some “hope” that it will? I understand that hope, having been a Christian myself, but it comes to naught and all of that time and energy you use to pray and to worship are wasted. I know it has to make you feel better when your life is rough as it seems to be right now. Honestly, I’m terrified to think about when I’ll likely have to deal with some of the things you are dealing with. But unfortunately, reality doesn’t care about feelings.

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No matter what anyone says to me here or anywhere else, the experiences i've had can't be erased or removed from my being simply because someone else has an opposing opinion or experience or viewpoint or whatever. I realize now that you think you're freeing me from something. Without any sarcasm: i've been where you are and it's better here.

Perhaps it’s without sarcasm but it isn’t without arrogance and willful ignorance. I’ve been where you’ve been too, Helen and it isn’t any better there at all. Prayers don’t work, you spend all of your time excusing your god for not doing anything. It all becomes a game of you self-editing your prayers so you can cling to your belief. You tell yourself that God “knows best” so *that’s* why he doesn’t answer your prayers. You desperately look for any “sign” to validate your belief. You tell yourself that you aren’t doing “enough” for this god and scrabble to find any purchase you can find.

Your experiences don’t need to be erased or removed but they do need to be looked at with some thought other than the presupposition that some god exists. Your beliefs are nothing unusual and they are nothing special. Many of us have had them at one point. I know it feels “better” that you think that there is some thing that loves you and only you, some all-powerful deity that will take care of you and make all of the suffering “worth” something. It’s a heady draught and I really miss that feeling. However, wishing makes nothing true and suffering is nothing but that, suffering. A omnipotent, supposedly “all-loving” god that would “use” such a thing to teach someone something is sadistic, especially when a theist says that it’s good to have others suffer by this god’s “will” for them so *they* can learn. That’s vicious and sick. I’d rather go to the classic “hell” rather than have anyone be harmed “for” me. You seem to think it’s good for people to be harmed when you say it was “good” for your mother to lose her mind. I find this vile, to be so happy that someone was harmed so she could be “loved” by you. She couldn’t’ be loved by you otherwise?

Also, I’m not sure where you ignorantly attacked evolutionary theory, but I will give you some advice. You need to know what you are attacking, not regurgitating what you’ve been told by someone else. You seem to know nothing about the actual facts about the science behind evolutionary theory. There are huge amounts of evidence and research that support evolutionary theory, evidence you seem to be willfully ignorant of. That science is responsible for the antibiotics you take, Helen, and the food you eat, etc. You hypocritically attack science when it shows your myths are wrong but you have no problem with it when it benefits you.

You are welcome to post here as you will but do not think your claims will not be questioned. You will be expected to support your claims. Ignorance can be helped and no one wants you to be a liar, either inadvertently or intentionally. If you can’t handle that, then you should realize that your time on the forum will be limited by your own actions. You will find no validation of your beliefs here and we certainly aren’t here to be willing punching bags for an unhappy theist. Take a moment to learn and understand our positions and we can be very supportive community for a lot of real problems. You seem to need that.

nowhere did i say science hasn't done anything for people. i simply stated that the rationalization and justification for some of the stuff they do to people and animals is in my opinion unacceptable regardless of the reasons. i simply was attacked for my opinion which i stated was my opinion. And with regards to my faith in christ and all that he was about and spoke in the christian bible i have stated that im okay with the evidence i have been given.

I don't place too much faith in videos as a means of deciding what i believe about something cause i haven't found them to be without the possibility of error in what they present. i tend to read and get the latest science stats from government and science publishings etc. i usually do a comparison with the "christian research institute" or "stand to reason" or even "imprimis". There are so many resources available for whatever a person is wanting to know more about.

i truly and genuinely just want to state my opinion and experiences on topics of interest. ill just copy and paste the above comments in response to future inquiry. and as i've already stated in intro and i think one other post area (science) what i believe and why.

life can be incredibly tough; for some more than others. it sounds like you dealt with your situation the best you could and look at what a fabulous group of people you've come across

im not going to comment in detail on the circumstances of my birth and early life because i've already worked through my own stuff and I keep an open tab with my therapist for sit downs and chit chats (such as what im experiencing with my Mom's illness, etc.). i haven't been able to talk to him because of a scheduling conflict this quarter with classes. so im on a bit of a detour here, but i usually always get back home. even as a child, i'd walk all over the city and come rollin' in pretty late sometimes. Man, if I walked half as much now, i wouldn't have some of the health issues that the doc's on me about.

mass media provides a way to see what's going on all over the world at once. it can be discouraging to see what people do to themselves and to one another and to the environment (as though getting old and dying weren't enought to deal with) on a daily basis. maybe they just don't really know how to do things or maybe their just downright rotten. i cant judge that cause i dont know. my guess is it's a little of both. I think i'll go for a walk today. i hope you have a great week. helen

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"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4