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A Female Take on Invisible Asian American Heterosexual Men

Akrypti from 8Asians wrote a piece in response to my International Examiner article called The Perfect Villain: Straight Asian Men. In her piece, she talks about her perspective as an Asian American woman. It’s a great piece. She argues that Asian women often don’t see Asian men as invisible, but instead often see us as evil or take us less seriously than other groups.

There were a few points that I really appreciated.

1. Akrypti mentions Frank Chin and Minority Militant, and how people didn’t take their points seriously. She also mentions that the same thing takes place with the IR issues.

2. Asian men aren’t seen as protectors of Asian women. She writes:

Why don’t we take straight APA men seriously? Is it a matter of invisibility? No. We see them. The truth is, we don’t really like them. They’re villains. They represent male dominance. Heterosexual dominance. And before anyone can do a doubletake on the logical fallacies there, we got the waves of APA women feminists who reinforce the villain archetype with narrative after narrative of straight APA men who fail to protect women, because whether or not we realize what it is we’re doing (*cough* traditional gender roles *cough*), at the heart of it that’s what women want: men to be protective. So it isn’t that Asian women believe the crazy villain stereotypes of Asian men; it’s that we don’t necessarily see them as protective over us, and so subliminally it’s easier for us to buy into the overt stereotypes, or worse yet, generate them, and then proceed to ignore and dismiss the rational straight Asian men who challenge those stereotypes.

I thought this was particularly interesting, as we Asian men tend to see the AFCC as not wanting anything from us ever, protection or anything else. And this might be true in many cases. I don’t know. But it’s not true of all Asian women.

3. New media (outside of those doin’ it for the money) tend to focus on Asian guys hooking up rather than protecting women. I agree with this 100%. This is yet another reason why PUA is the most ridiculous form of snake oil that the peddlers are selling. It’s that same “masculine” question–masculinity means being brave, truthful, and good. Lots of these people have their eye on the wrong ball.

4. She writes:

“Straight APA men are not a part of any white-backed movement and as a result, do not have any affiliations, sympathies, or mainstream support. They are the more marginalized and thus if there is any work left for activists to do, it would be to seek a dynamic equilibrium between the APA sexes. After all, isn’t that what feminism is all about?”

That’s it 100%. Kingstonism sold well during the 70’s because Asian American feminists were tied to White feminism (and most Asian American feminists only dated White guys). Gay Asian stuff sells well these days because of the White male connection. Heterosexual Asian American guys deal with the Invisible Chain and are pretty much just doing it ourselves. We’s gots no White male connection and no White female connection.

It was good to hear this perspective from an Asian American woman, and it’s great to find some common ground in this debate. Within Asian America, there are PUA goofballs on one extreme, and there are bat-shit-crazy-man-hating-self-described-“feminists” on the other, but in the middle are normal men and women who can find common ground if they seek it. I have very positive feelings about the future. We just need to keep the dialogue going.

310 thoughts on “A Female Take on Invisible Asian American Heterosexual Men”

Thanks, B! Upon re-reading my own piece though, I acknowledge how scatter-brained I was when I wrote it. If I could redo, I would have organized it better. In any case, the comments are a far more interesting read than the original post. =) Go read and enjoy!

Asian Americans could start to acknowledge that they are a community divided via gender lines, that this is a strategy of tension designed to divide the community and hamper the social influence of Asian men and reduce Asian women to disposable accessories, and that the primary instruments used to facilitate this are:

1. The constant, obtrusive propagandizing attacking (a) Asian culture as somehow defective as its defining characteristic, (b) Asian masculinity defined as evil when it is not castrated.

2. The wall of silence, where people refuse to discuss or even acknowledge this, as a means to further their own personal employment of such a strategy.

Has the time come yet where you can call out the propaganda openly and have people get what you are saying, or would you still face open hostility for being direct?

The problem I see is there are not enough AAM who care one way or the other because they aren’t really affected by this. The group of AAMs that do care are in the minority. In the end, I don’t believe AAMs have a problem with dating women than exaggerated mostly by PUA Gurus. Most AAMs I know have been in way more relationships and none of these PUAs as many conquests as they say they do, can hold a candle to any of these people. PUA, sounds good on paper, reality? Not so much.

I hate to say this, because who would want the disparity to be true, but unfortunately I have to say you have sample bias Moroboshi. Your friends are not troubled, but it mean it doesn’t exist. There’s a statistical surveys that have documented the disparity. I can also mention personal experiences too, though that’s anecdotal. A bit more scientifically (Though less than statistics) is articles and other works (like the WongFu vid about interracial dating) exist because there is some basis in realty. Proportion-wise, there’s more Asian guys than other races who struggle finding attraction from women.

If it’s statistics that you’re aiming at, wouldn’t it dumb down the issue since Asian Males do have a higher rate of marriage than other ethnic groups?

Personally, I do agree with Moro that the whole “Asian males can’t get dates” paradigm is fairly overblown. However, I do agree with you that the issue of horrid media portrayal, etc. are very real indeed.

rayinseattle@ That is correct. I feel anyone can use statistics to put their spin on things. For example, Let say I bring up this statistic I found randomly on the internet, “Asian-American women ages 15-24 have the highest suicide rate of women in any race or ethnic group in that age group.” What about from 15-40? Why is it so specific in that age range? As I said, anyone can take any statistic and spin it for their own needs. I see that a lot with PUA gurus. They’ll try to scare you into buying their bootcamps with this nonsense. Luckily most Asian people aren’t dumb enough to fall for it. Most these PUAs, they have no idea what it’s like to be in relationships. Reading their stories, you can tell. In terms of the media, it first starts with enough Asian Americans caring about how we are represented. Most do not care and if they did, you’d see a difference. Advertisers who basically control dollars would listen if enough of one group didn’t like how they were represented. Most Asian Americans I know do not care. Should they? Probably but the problem starts with that.

@Moroboshi/rayinseattle Statistics can be spinned, but numbers don’t lie. The presenter can lie, the media interpreting it can lie, even the person who did the research can lie, but numbers itself can’t. Just because there’s PUAs out there spinning stuff to scare people to their bootcamp, it doesn’t mean we can ignore statistics. It doesn’t mean we can ignore them in favor of what 5 Asians friends feel when we ask them.

Just that we need to be careful on the meaning and implications when reading it.

For example, rayinseattle’s have a point that Asian men have higher rates of marriage than other races, but it doesn’t necessarily mean success. Logic tends to dictate that things were really simple, high success in dating should equate to high success in marriage. Instead, the marriage rate is high, but the dating rate is much lower. Statistics only allows this much. Beyond here is interpretation. So it is open to debate. My interpretation is pretty fearful and negative. The high rate of marriage versus low dating rate seems to me a sign that the choice to marry is an act done more by need than desire. Which is more likely he found and marry a girl he really wants? The one who has to the ability to find interest from lots of girls than date them then picking one that one he likes the most? Or struggle for years to get some interest, find one or a few, and marry her?

So no, just because marriage has a higher rate in Asian males, it doesn’t mean Asian males aren’t finding trouble to date in the first place. Worse, it might be creating the wrong type of mentality that when a date do comes, he might be more willing to accept the wrong kind of girl that he doesn’t really like, but merely tolerates.

@Moroboshi Again, just because your friends don’t find it much concern, doesn’t mean it is true. Since you’re not willing to talk statistics, I’ll play the game of anecdotal personal experiences. I know one person who have given up with finding a girl and settled with the idea that he’ll go back and take a wife from his home country. My old roommate is heavily considering using a matchmaking agency in Taiwan (we had quite a few heated discussions that would something like that really find a girl who would really love him or just have an agenda that he can meet for her use). A number of friends I met in college have talked about the disparity or at least joked about it.

So your Asian friends are not struggling with finding dates, that’s great, but your friends are not the only people. It is on the minds of many. With some people I know, it is a serious concern (myself to a degree too, but no way it will be under terms of desperation like going back to my home country, it will under my terms). It is not someone just made up by PUAs. They are a reaction to the disease, not an entity that made the perception.

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Now on the separate matter of media portrayal. We only make up about 5-9% of the US population. Advertisers aren’t very concern if we are displeased (that assuming we can even muster the full 5-9%). Change won’t occur through that unless can piggyback a large movement. Media will change not on our anger but on incentives like if they find that positive Asian leads makes lots of money or change of environment like the Asian market breaking through to the US or the rise of Asian Youtube stars.

Untested conjecture: This make me think of Black leads now. Based on this theory (though they also make up a large population), it would mean the rise of breakthrough black stars and hits of “Blaxploitation” movies done more for their media portrayal than any protest about the media. At least at that time.

Dreamer, there’s nothing wrong with going to Asia to find a wife if you’re also Asian. For starters you’ll be seen differently. Matchmaking agencies in Asia regularly run scams in order to make profits, but if he went back to Taiwan and got involved in society and community there, got to know people, get known by people etc, he would surely be able to find wife material.

As for clout in terms of media representation, why did Asian Americans forsake their ties to their home countries? Jews take an active interest in Israel and how other Jews are treated elsewhere in the world, this is also one of the functions undertaken by the embassies of nearly every white country that has expatriates or a diaspora.

If you were from Taiwan, Korea or Japan, do you really believe that fellow Taiwanese, Koreans or Japanese would not care how you are treated in America?

You want clout, right? Do you want to spend your life BEGGING the white man for better representation and better treatment? How has that worked for black people?

Rebuild the ties with Asia. Then you won’t be that 5 to 9 percent. You’ll have the weight of millions behind you.

Dreamer, there’s nothing wrong with going to Asia to find a wife if you’re also Asian. For starters you’ll be seen differently. Matchmaking agencies in Asia regularly run scams in order to make profits, but if he went back to Taiwan and got involved in society and community there, got to know people, get known by people etc, he would surely be able to find wife material.

You don’t see there’s something wrong if a man have to go all the way to the other side of the world to have a chance with a girl? I’m not talking about a man going home because he likes it there, or business reasons, or family reasons and then start getting ingratiated into the community. I’m talking going back for a wife.

There’s Asian guy who’s at least done well enough to find a girl once in a while and decides he wants a wife from Asians and there’s also Asian guy who is also successful enough with at least finding a girl once in a while and decides to go travel/study abroad/visit home country and just meets a girl he likes enough that he actually brings her back.

And then there’s Asian guy who struggle who hard in the US. Unable to get any attraction going. Unable to not be invisible. He decides that he’ll go home.

Some of them have some… major issues… But many and the people I’m talking about in question, are not social disasters. Maybe they can dress a little more relaxed. Maybe they need to approach a little more. But there’s nothing really wrong. Either way, what’s important in this is no man should marry in a position of need. Whether it is going to Asia or a finding girl here, it shouldn’t be on terms of desperation. It the wrong type of mentality to go in.

So there’s something wrong with that.

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Media representation is not an government thing. Even if we turn to Asia, it will not do anything in Hollywood. As for the government thing, we still don’t turn to them, because it is still up to us to gain political clout. Black people have done relatively well in the political aspect and media aspect too. It is their economic situation that struggles and that because they shot themselves in the foot than the “white man” is keeping them down (there is the economic aspect outside their control which you can say Occupy movement is partially about, but a large part is themselves).

We need to keep in mind also we are ourselves our own entity now. I’m sure Italy have concern about their diaspora on some level, but Italians Americans are not relying on them to back them up. Israel is the one exception, but that model doesn’t work for us. Besides, their clout is also through their own success rather than just Israel helping them.

Dreamer: As I’ve mentioned, until Asians on screen can prove to Hollywood it can consistently make money for them. No one, not even Asian people are going to put money into it. Probably didn’t help this installment of Harold and Kumar had a soft opening either. Notice how the posters have NPH in the middle? Ha. It’s all about marketing and selling a product.

It all starts with Asians coming together and supporting each other. Unfortunately, we don’t. Until then, I think what you’re asking for is not going to happen.

Also, I base my findings on Asian American Males on my life experiences instead of looking at a statistic (ie HBD worshippers) . I don’t see much of a difference between whites, blacks, latinos, etc in terms of dating. It’s hard to get the HB10 for anyone if that’s what you’re looking for. Growing up in the west coast, I can say I’ve been around Asians as much as anyone and I just don’t see this exaggerated discrepancy in dating a small group of PUAs talk about.

I don’t see a problem at all with travelling across the globe to get a wife. Your friend would be going back to where his roots were, he’s not a sex tourist, and most importantly, he wouldn’t need to make that x thousands more per year to have the same chance of marriage in America.

Depending on which Asian country it is there are also differences in culture that may make marriages there more attractive and also more lasting.

As for desperation, that’s not going to be fixed by dressing flashier and approaching girls more. It may be that when he goes to a place where he is treated like a HUMAN BEING that desperation may disappear entirely and he could come into his own.

I’ve met quite a few guys who will never have what it takes to be anything more than a dork, if they are to be judged entirely on “smoothness” with women and charisma. But these guys are okay. They’re hardworking, they’re faithful, also very intelligent, and paternal. You know how traits like these are rewarded in the dominant American culture, especially if you’re a minority that is pervasively shitted on by propaganda.

I’m saying that in other countries traits like these would be considered in high demand. If I were you I would disabuse your friend that getting a wife in Asia would be easy or better. However I would also encourage him to go back there and re-build connections first, to see if he likes it and can fit in.

A lot of caveats in your argument. Before I go deeper (at work right now), I do have a 2 quick questions:

1. As noted by Raquel, what is so bad about having to marry a girl from the mother land? Just so you know, it’s not just the few anecdote AM you see that are considering it. Scores of “beta” white guys have done the same (from the Phillipines to Russia to Latin America) and I know three fairly well to do Indian guys that have had their marriages via this route.

It’s attitude like this shows me a divide still exists between the “ABCs” and the “FOBs”. Interestingly enough, the same ABC guys who will not go for a certain girl because she is too “fobby” will often be the first to pout when that same girl has no choice but to date a non-AM.

2. What is wrong with marrying the “first” person that reciprocates? Anecdote evidence I know… but a number of my black and white friends ended married their high school sweetheart (a lot of times their first or 2nd relationship) and I would hardly call it “settling” or having “no choice”. Funny thing is… this trend also seems to occur quite a bit amongst the Asian Christian crowd lol. From the looks of it, things work out ok for the most part.

You know he funny thing I’ve noticed amongst reading these PUA message boards, there is discrimination for FOB Asian women but if it’s an FOB Euro. That’s like gold. I’d say plenty of White Women who are sarged mentioned in the field reports are usually foreigners from Europe(Russian). (they don’t know any better) It just about never ends up in sex or anything substantial either.
It’s things like this that drive me crazy, the double standard Asian Americans have toward one another. ABCs looking down on FOBs.

I’ve been around Asians as much as anyone and I just don’t see this exaggerated discrepancy in dating a small group of PUAs talk about”.

It’s about scoring White women. Some Latinos and even Black guys say that White girls are out of reach for them. They complain that a growing number of their better educated sisters tend to seek out White guys and look down on minority men. Sound familiar?

“As for clout in terms of media representation, why did Asian Americans forsake their ties to their home countries? Jews take an active interest in Israel and how other Jews are treated elsewhere in the world, this is also one of the functions undertaken by the embassies of nearly every white country that has expatriates or a diaspora”.

“The high rate of marriage versus low dating rate seems to me a sign that the choice to marry is an act done more by need than desire. Which is more likely he found and marry a girl he really wants? The one who has to the ability to find interest from lots of girls than date them then picking one that one he likes the most? Or struggle for years to get some interest, find one or a few, and marry her?”

Exactly, it seems like Asian men can’t be playboys even with their high salaries and education levels.

Perhaps both Asian genders are seen as less desirable. Most AF/WM couples tend to be on the low end spectrum. I even see Indian girls (they are the least likely to interracial date) score better looking White dudes than East Asian women.

Probably didn’t help this installment of Harold and Kumar had a soft opening either. Notice how the posters have NPH in the middle? Ha. It’s all about marketing and selling a product.

Harold and Kumar is at its third movie. I consider them a pretty good success. Though it would be nice if it was a #1 movie (though I’m not sure if it is that deserving quality-wise, the first one was definitely deserving).

As I’ve mentioned, until Asians on screen can prove to Hollywood it can consistently make money for them. No one, not even Asian people are going to put money into it.

Hence why I said earlier that Asia is our best hope. I don’t see our filmmakers going to make that attempt. We got a better chance of a breakthrough via an Asian actor than our budding directors.

Those Youtube/Internet stars could be a dark horse candidate. With how our society is changing so rapidly, maybe one day Hollywood might not matter so much for media one day. But as is, only Asia and its film industry and resources can make breakthrough here and a positive portrayal would be a nice by-product.

Also, I base my findings on Asian American Males on my life experiences instead of looking at a statistic (ie HBD worshippers) . I don’t see much of a difference between whites, blacks, latinos, etc in terms of dating. It’s hard to get the HB10 for anyone if that’s what you’re looking for. Growing up in the west coast, I can say I’ve been around Asians as much as anyone and I just don’t see this exaggerated discrepancy in dating a small group of PUAs talk about.

Well that’s great. You know you’re arguing against one of the basic foundation to analytical observation? Again, it is not the number’s fault. It is the presenter. Please don’t argue against statistics itself. I hope you’re not trying to push against that.

Also, asking from you experiences, did you went around a college campus? Perhaps things are different on the West versus the East (though I heard things are worse there), count how many Asian girl with white guys before you see the other way around. Unless there’s that many more Asian girls to Asian guys, someone is left out. If you’re measuring with just your friends, you must recognize the friends you befriend are not random. You could be easily hanging out with the types, while still average, are able to find a reasonable level of success.

To deny the existence of the disparity, you’re not just going against why the statistics been saying. But something is fueling the discussions on the blogospheres to. There’s plenty of guys who have personal experiences who is the opposite of your experiences. What makes yours more true than theirs? What make my encounters (which does detect disparity) less valid than yours?

I don’t see a problem at all with travelling across the globe to get a wife. Your friend would be going back to where his roots were, he’s not a sex tourist, and most importantly, he wouldn’t need to make that x thousands more per year to have the same chance of marriage in America…

1. As noted by Raquel, what is so bad about having to marry a girl from the mother land? Just so you know, it’s not just the few anecdote AM you see that are considering it. Scores of “beta” white guys have done the same (from the Phillipines to Russia to Latin America) and I know three fairly well to do Indian guys that have had their marriages via this route.

Attraction is not just cultural perception based on race, but also personality, height, looks, demeanor, status, and a variety of other factors. It’s all fine if they are going and finding love. There’s a growing(?) number of advocates to marry a foreign girl from many different types of men. However, that movement sounds like to me to go abroad for the better women, not because they can’t get one here. Again, it is the intention and motivation behind the act. Are you going because you find the women there to be more open, kinder, sweeter, prettier? Or are you going because you can’t attract at all and you’re desperate?

If he don’t know how to handle a girl. He don’t know how to handle a girl. Changing countries might gain a wife through some agency, but it doesn’t mean attraction or love.

A caveat to help understand what I mean. Is the man’s problem a problem of status or a problem of personality. If it is status – hurt by a hostile culture and close-minded women – than a change in scenery sounds reasonable. If it is personality – even if the guy is not a serious social screw-up but just unable to generate attraction – I think he has to address that. Going to another country won’t all of a sudden make him in demand (and no, being hardworking sounds like a way to be used, not make him attractive – perhaps a foreign wife might “use” him with better care than an American, but it will not mean genuine attraction or love).…As for desperation, that’s not going to be fixed by dressing flashier and approaching girls more. It may be that when he goes to a place where he is treated like a HUMAN BEING that desperation may disappear entirely and he could come into his own….

As for the desperation aspect. You’re right that the only final and permanent cure to desperation is success. The higher status aspect of going returning home may tip the balance enough that he’ll find the treatment and mentality to go into any relationship or marriage correctly. Going back and just being arranged with a wife doesn’t cure it at all.

What is wrong with marrying the “first” person that reciprocates? Anecdote evidence I know… but a number of my black and white friends ended married their high school sweetheart (a lot of times their first or 2nd relationship) and I would hardly call it “settling” or having “no choice”. Funny thing is… this trend also seems to occur quite a bit amongst the Asian Christian crowd lol. From the looks of it, things work out ok for the most part.

You misunderstand me. When I said “first person he meets,” I don’t mean the high school sweetheart scenario. I mean desperation mentality that leads to a man taking anything, and by anything, I mean a woman who mistreats him and abuse him but takes it because she is somehow better than no woman.

It’s attitude like this shows me a divide still exists between the “ABCs” and the “FOBs”. Interestingly enough, the same ABC guys who will not go for a certain girl because she is too “fobby” will often be the first to pout when that same girl has no choice but to date a non-AM.

I don’t know where you got that idea from. I have no mention of FOBs nor I take any issue of them here or the home country. I have no issue with the women. I don’t take issue because I look down on FOBs or some similar absurd reason. I have issue with the action or more specifically of the reasoning to the action. Going thousands of miles across is no panacea if the disease lies in the mind and heart than the environment. For many of those guys, it is not because the environment is too hostile, that includes two friends I know (BTW, it was two guys, one closer – former roommate, and one distant).

If I was just basing things on reading, I would think the US is full of nothing but AF who only date WM and AMs who complain about that but yet lust for WF but can’t seem to get them. And he ones who lust for them go on sites where a guy tells him the secret in obtaining them.

If the situation was different and WF were attracted to AM just like WM are to AF in reality, would AM not date WF? I think AM would probably be dating mostly WFs. I think you’d see a lot more than what we see of BM and WF.

Ha, you have to read that a couple of times to get it.

And Dreamer, what you say about East Coast and West Coast. I don’t know if any is better or worst. It really depends what you’re going after. If you go after the hottest white girls on campus, probably going to be tougher for you. If you hang out in Hollywood trying to date the hot white aspiring actress, also not to easy for you. Then again, that’s not easy for anybody.

I think I get what you’re saying now. I’m pretty much in agreement. I don’t think he should go to Asia for a “one off” arrangement to get a wife. That’s what a sucker does, and he’d be a sucker with a green card just baiting sharks. It would be different if he went to Asia to open his horizons and build some ties there and got involved in community. I know a couple of folks who’ve returned to the motherland so to speak. They really like it here and don’t suffer as much cognitive dissonance as they do in Anglo countries.

By the way, I do not believe that indie acts breaking into the mainstream is a good thing either.

The scale of funds that Hollywood could bring is like a pot of gold held in front of an endemically poor people. You may think it’s largesse but it’s actually buying you out and subverting you. Once you’ve had a comfortable job and lots of money do you think you’ll object to doing what they want you to do? This is one of the uses of money.

This is what happens to every Asian who gets into Hollywood. I’m surprised people don’t know better. The thinking is still provincial.

N: Yeah, dating FOBs isn’t a bad thing. I think it’s just something weird about ABCs looking down on them. It’s pretty ridiculous. Also going back to what I was talking about lots of Gay AM only date white guys also so I guess if given the opportunity, Asian Americans in general would not turn down a white person? The reason a lot of AM complain about the discrepancy is only because WF generally don’t date them. Looks like given the opportunity, AM, especially ABCs would definitely go after a WF.

“Looks like given the opportunity, AM, especially ABCs would definitely go after a WF.”

I know where you’re going with this line of reasoning and I also believe there’s something wrong with thinking there’s a pot of gold between a white woman’s legs, ANY white woman’s legs as long as she’s white.

But there’s something fundamentally sicker going on when one group gets welcomed with opportunities while another gets the door shut in their face for reasons like race, gender or sex. This is bigotry, plain and simple. When things like that happen it should be called out, not ignored, not excused, not rationalised.

It’s that same “masculine” question–masculinity means being brave, truthful, and good.

Well…I don’t know about brave or good but I will certainly try my best to be truthful. This is an emotionally-charged topic and to broach it without getting one’s emotions involved is difficult. But a certain degree of detachment is necessary in order to minimize delusions or illusions in order to grasp what might reasonably be called truth.

She argues that Asian women often don’t see Asian men as invisible, but instead often see us as evil or take us less seriously than other groups.

In response, I present a quote from “Love in the Ruins” by Walker Percy.

“For the world is broken, sundered, busted down the middle, self ripped from self and man pasted back together as mythical monster, half ghost, half beast, but no man…”

“The reason a lot of AM complain about the discrepancy is only because WF generally don’t date them. Looks like given the opportunity, AM, especially ABCs would definitely go after a WF”.

The Columbia University Interracial Speed Dating Experiment found that WFs generally view AM as the least physically attractive male. Many Asian guys were upset over this, some denied the experiment because it was biased. But reality does say a lot of things for sure.

The picture, while kitschy, is interesting because in the thought-bubble, the guy holding the rose is depicted as a devil.

There is a vast moral and spiritual dimension to this issue that is being neglected amid all the usual and tired tropes regarding media representation, statistics, and white women.

Let us revisit this statement:She argues that Asian women often don’t see Asian men as invisible, but instead often see us as evil or take us less seriously than other groups.

Well…I am greatly relieved that I am not rendered invisible by Asian women but only merely viewed as being the Evil Incarnate. I am not being sarcastic. To be rendered invisible is worse than to be subject to hatred. You can be hated by someone but at least your existence is acknowledged. To be rendered invisible is to not exist at all.

But I do not want to get too metaphysical here. I fear that I’ve already dragged things to deeper waters than most people would care to go with my mention of morality or spirituality.

But having said that, as long as we’re discussing evil…the writer CS Lewis wrote (I am paraphrasing heavily) that the devil prefers not to have his existence acknowledged by mortals. He’d rather be invisible while he goes about subverting the world with evil. That is the difference the devil and us. We want our presence to be acknowledged.

I come from a faith which explains the origin of evil with a story that involves a man and woman and a talking serpent. Long story short, because of the talking serpent, something went awry between the man and woman and a divinely ordained natural order was broken. In other words, messed up gender relations played a central role in the reason why everything else became messed up. Now whether you believe in Genesis or not, it bears a remarkable metaphorical similarity to The Issue at hand. Incidently, the word “devil” is derived from “diablo” which means “the divider”.

Does this make sense so far?

Incidently, the devil is also referred to as the Prince of Lies, Ruler of the Air. It stands to reason that this entity that we refer to as the “mass media” would fall within the domain of the Prince of Lies…and distortions and illusions. There is always a “talking serpent”…even to this very day.

Our ancestors had a philosophy called the Mandate of Heaven. It says that the ruler derives his legitimacy to rule from heaven via moral rectitude. If he becomes tyrannical or unwise ruler, he loses the Mandate of Heaven. The ruler can be overthrown. According to the Five Bonds, the ruler-subject dichotomy is analogous to that of husband and wife, or man and woman. If Confucius ever had anything to say about The Issue at hand he might say something like: “man derives his legitimacy to be a man from heaven via the condition of his moral character.”

“Well…I am greatly relieved that I am not rendered invisible by Asian women but only merely viewed as being the Evil Incarnate. I am not being sarcastic. To be rendered invisible is worse than to be subject to hatred. You can be hated by someone but at least your existence is acknowledged. To be rendered invisible is to not exist at all.”

I think it’s the loud Asian guys who are subject to hatred. The invisible dudes in the corner–well, no one remembers them. Those are probably the invisible ones, which might be most Asian dudes.

Remember, the loud ones she mentions are guys like Chin who are so loud that you can’t ignore them. I’ve met Chin, and I can assure you he’s got some loud charisma. Which is why the powers that be were quick to paint him as a villain.

Long story short, because of the talking serpent, something went awry between the man and woman and a divinely ordained natural order was broken. In other words, messed up gender relations played a central role in the reason why everything else became messed up. Now whether you believe in Genesis or not, it bears a remarkable metaphorical similarity to The Issue at hand. Incidently, the word “devil” is derived from “diablo” which means “the divider”.

I had no idea that diablo meant divider! That’s interesting, very interesting. It seems that evil always involves some kind of divider or divisive action, so the word is fitting.

I’m waiting for the continuation of this metaphor. I particularly want to know more about this serpent. What is the identify of this serpent, and is the serpent male or female or both? Is it just the “mass media,” or is the serpent the one pulling the strings intentionally behind what comes out as mass media?

I’m also curious about what Confucius might say. In Confucianism, there are relationships, and it seems to me that the Asian man far down that hierarchy.

Is that a subtle comment on my abilities? Or is that just a statement on how many acronyms you used?

It really depends what you’re going after. If you go after the hottest white girls on campus, probably going to be tougher for you. If you hang out in Hollywood trying to date the hot white aspiring actress, also not to easy for you. Then again, that’s not easy for anybody.

Who you’re going after plays a role, but unless you’re saying the cause of the disparity is just Asian men are unreasonably holding out for the hottest Hollywood actress, I think what playing out in the real world is roughly equal in mentality. I think the disparity is more from a more hostile environment for Asian men and certain qualities more common amongst us than because we want too much. Though I can agree some of us do want white girls, but white girls are much less open than the white guy counterparts.

Also, in the part of about Asian Men wanting White Women. I can agree that if White Women were more open (via their own attitude or by us being more attractive on average), there would be more, but I don’t think we would abandon Asian Women wholesale. I think a lot of us still prefer our own race.

@Raguel – Cool. Also about the indie acts. It reminds me of Stephen Chow’s forray into Hollywood. We got Dragonball Evolution out of that. Yeah, so he’s back in Asian again. When I said our best hope is either Asia or the breakout of Youtube stars, I mean more along the lines of Youtube being viewed as more mainstream than they going to Hollywood. Though I won’t be against it if they can get in on their terms.

@kobukson – That reminds me of a line I read before: The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.

White girls do not interracially date in general. The thing I’m bugged about is, people are saying is, AM being unattractive that being the reason or some conspiracy by the media directed just at AM. White girls don’t date any other race most of the time. That’s fact. WM on the other hand have a much higher statistic of dating out of their race. I hate to use statistics but I think we can all agree on that. I don’t know what PUA can teach you that none of the other races have answers to either. Your best chance as an AM to obtaining a mate is to date AFs.

“White girls don’t date any other race most of the time. That’s fact. WM on the other hand have a much higher statistic of dating out of their race. I hate to use statistics but I think we can all agree on that. I don’t know what PUA can teach you that none of the other races have answers to either. Your best chance as an AM to obtaining a mate is to date AFs”.

The consensus is that AFs are increasingly interested in dating WMs, and less interested in AMs. They say AMs need to branch out to close the interracial dating disparity. Now you say that WFs don’t generally interracial date. And then there is this stigma of AMs taking a woman from Asia being labeled as losers. So what are the other options where there is some dignity left for the AM?

To say WF are better than AF is obviously rubbish, but to a certain extent I think it’s good to encourage AM to enter the white market. There’s nothing wrong with preferring one’s own race, but I think a lot of AM don’t even consider WF (or BF or whatever) because they think they can’t do it.
Again, nothing wrong with AM preferring AF (hell, I prefer them), but dependence on them is not healthy and is actually counterproductive. No one likes someone who seems clingy and possessive. Being collectively willing to pursue non-Asian women would be one of the best things that could happen to AM.

“White girls do not interracially date in general. The thing I’m bugged about is, people are saying is, AM being unattractive that being the reason or some conspiracy by the media directed just at AM. White girls don’t date any other race most of the time. That’s fact. WM on the other hand have a much higher statistic of dating out of their race. I hate to use statistics but I think we can all agree on that. I don’t know what PUA can teach you that none of the other races have answers to either. Your best chance as an AM to obtaining a mate is to date AFs.’

This line irritates me greatly. I probably can’t change your mind, but again statistics do not lie. If you have a problem with PUAs, your problem is with the manipulation and false presentation of data NOT statistics itself. The results are the results. A person can twist, hide, or ignore parts of the data, it remains whether one recognize it or not. Like a math problem or a law of physics, it cannot be truly bent, just hidden. Unlike personal experiences where it is subjected to our own biases and likely unrepresentative of the entirety of the matter. We most be moved by data, not doctrine or personal views.

What your problem with looking at data as long it is not misrepresented? There’s nothing wrong with looking at data of things like we found that X% of White Males date outside their race versus Y% of White Females date outside their race and then note that X is greater than Y. There’s a problem of people telling misinterpreting data and broadcasting it while the data doesn’t say that, but data itself is data.

White girls do not interracially date in general… …AM being unattractive that being the reason or some conspiracy by the media directed just at AM…

So what are the other options where there is some dignity left for the AM?

Well fortunately, we do have some control over our lives and love lives. It is not as if we are at the total mercy of the winds and hope we just get lucky that a girl take interest in us (and hopefully a girl that’s likable and treat us well). There’s some stuff that determines our attractiveness that is outside of our control unfortunately (like height or and some stuff to our looks) but there’s much we can control.

As I mentioned earlier on difficulty on attracting girls: A Disease of the Heart and Mind versus a Disease of the Environment.

The Disease of the Environment are stuff that affect our attractiveness from outside ourselves. Things like hostile women, immediate low status (ie coolness) from various sources like media, or even just living in a area where there’s just no women around (like Alaska). Things like this you can say that only moving to a most hospitable location can help.

Now, The Disease of the Heart and Mind are things about ourselves. Extreme elements like being a severely fat slob or unwilling to approaching any girl (though it is not that uncommon) are examples. I know one can argue that many are not that extreme more around average – like socially open and not fat, but not a fitness god – but still struggle. But there’s still plenty of room for improvement for ourselves and better results with women.

This is what I was arguing earlier about “going back to Asia.” If you have this type of a disease, I don’t think a girl arranged over there will find you anymore attracted or subsequently develop a real love for him. It doesn’t even have to be home country. Many guys of all races can struggle for years and stumble on some 29 year old after ignoring his type for years all of a sudden take interest in him. What’s changed? I doubt it is maturity and finding him attractive now. More likely she’s thinking about babies and peer pressure from all her friends. A nightmarish scenario even worse than taking some random girl from the home country, what I hear, at least she’ll treat him with more respect for the duration before she bails.

But I digressed. The succinct answer is Raguel’s answer: “what about the impression that you yourself make on women?” Most White women are dating less outside their race and Asian women are dating more outside than we do. Is it just because they as a whole decided to be completely closed to us? I doubt it, this is a product of our collected impressions we make to them too.

Of course, my use of the word “villain” is hyperbole. But the point there was this: No, APA males are not “invisible” nor would I say we APA females are “indifferent” about APA males. Rather, I find that when asked point blank why they might not be interested in dating or marrying an Asian guy, Asian women resort to negative stereotypes and misogynist archetypes as their explanation.

I say that there is an element of “villain” to our society’s view of APA men because when an APA man is flawed, folks seem to be real quick at making it out to be much worse than it is. One Asian guy is arrested for beating up his wife and instead of treating it as a case, lawyers and reporters are bound to say something silly about it being a cultural issue and how “Asian men all beat their wives.” One Asian guy cheats and suddenly, “you can’t trust an Asian man; they all cheat or treat their wives bad or have multiple wives and mistresses on the side; ever heard of concubines?”

I was prompted to write the post in part by what I had been hearing from women. When I’m comforting a girlfriend who isn’t Asian after she’s broken up with a guy, she’ll be sobbing and declaring, “I hate men.” Intriguingly, when the girlfriend is Asian and the guy who did her wrong was Asian too, she declares, “I hate Asian men. I knew it, I knew I should never have dated an Asian guy. This is what happens when you date Asian.” (And yet when the Asian girlfriend breaks up with a white guy who did her wrong, she doesn’t stereotype him with, “I hate white men. I knew I should never have dated a white guy…” In fact, she goes right back out there to date another white guy.) That discrepancy repeated itself over and over, I couldn’t help noticing the pattern.

And I’m also interested in reading the continuation of Kobukson’s comment. And yes, indeed, Western imperialism messed with the original order of gender relations in so many countries around the world and was deeply divisive. I love indulging in the blame game just as much as anyone else, but at this point, it is more crucial for those who “get it” to lead the charge and repair the gender relations and the divide ourselves.

I’ve just noticed a new trend. It’s called “statistical predetermination”.

Just like in genetic predetermination where people believe there is a limit to a person’s potential that is determined by genes, so in statistical predetermination these savants believe that their entire lives will mirror the exact same results of a study. 😀

Can’t wait for you to school these guys in statistics and studies Dreamer, so I’m going to go ahead.

Some of you here might have heard about that shitty social experiment that was done a couple of decades ago, where in one class young kids were given praise and openly shown much was expected of them, while in another the kids were disparaged and treated as if nothing much could be expected of them. Subsequently these kids absorbed this treatment, this view of other people’s into themselves, and it affected the rest of their lives. The majority of the kids in the latter category stopped trying harder.

These studies are doing the same thing to the brittle psyches of frustrated generic Asian nerds. God knows, its too difficult to learn how to intrigue, seduce or connect with a woman, so why not let the results of a study rule what they can do instead?

After all “the studies” have already proven how they will be treated by all women in every instance. It’s useless, there is no hope, sob sob sob.

These are nerds. They would rather find excuses to hide from life than to win it. 😀

I’ve always dated the more fobbier types, so I’ve never had a lot of problems (apart from the real early teen days). Personally I think the whole game/PUA thing that people talk about make things a lot more complicated than it really is. It’s all really a matter of finding someone that you like that likes you back and everything will flow from that. So in my view, the most difficult thing is finding that someone special (lol, ie. that one girl that actually laugh at your jokes)- once you find her – all that confidence, hunter mentality stuff is pretty much throw out the window.

So I could careless about what white women thinks about me, but in my view, there’s two things that forms the perception of someone – media and peer influence. So that’s where the irony lies – Afterall, in the existing setting, a WF is more likely to befriend an AF than date an AM and previous discussion with a sold-out AF is likely to influence what she sees in front of her..

And I’m also a firm believer that ‘looks’ form a large part in someone’s reception initially, the whole looks doesn’t really matter is BS to me. It’s much, much easier if someone’s trying to find the good things in you rather than the bad things.

WTF Raguel. Is your comprehension equivalent to a middle schooler? The entire second half of my post was dedicated to arguing how we not not at the mercy of the winds. I even quoted you for my conclusive paragraph. And now of course you respond is to call me an autistic nerd and subtly mock me.

Even if you only read the first two paragraph, there was no argument that statistics have reveal how our lives will play out. At no point I argued that statistics tells our destiny. My argument is hostility to statistics is hostility to the wrong area. Arguing against statistics is arguing against the scientific method. That entire first half is a rail against such hostility.

Again, I said statistics cannot be falsified. Where the hell did I said statistics reveal our destiny? Again, I said people can misrepresent them as false proofs. How the hell does that mean we’ll mirror the results of the study? None of that argued predestination. My point was an argument against hostility towards statistics and how it is misdirected.

Statistics don’t reveal our destiny. It does reveal the situation. Do you have a problem with that idea too now? Too nerdy and autistic for you? Without that, how do we know for certain if something is only in our heads or what’s actually happening? Or as important to control our destiny – help identify the causes so we know our options to deal with it.

It makes no sense how you read that I was arguing predestination. Especially since every subsequent paragraph after was about how we can affect our destiny. You know… like the line “is not as if we are at the total mercy of the winds.” I deserve none of your derision or mockery.

Minor correction: The line “statistics cannot be falsified.” I meant that results are the results when done impartially and adherently to a well designed study revealing the matter. Not trying to say that data cannot be made up.

“I was prompted to write the post in part by what I had been hearing from women. When I’m comforting a girlfriend who isn’t Asian after she’s broken up with a guy, she’ll be sobbing and declaring, “I hate men.” Intriguingly, when the girlfriend is Asian and the guy who did her wrong was Asian too, she declares, “I hate Asian men. I knew it, I knew I should never have dated an Asian guy. This is what happens when you date Asian.” (And yet when the Asian girlfriend breaks up with a white guy who did her wrong, she doesn’t stereotype him with, “I hate white men. I knew I should never have dated a white guy…” In fact, she goes right back out there to date another white guy.) That discrepancy repeated itself over and over, I couldn’t help noticing the pattern.”

That is SO true. That was one reason I wrote about Pin the Tail on the Asian male. (Note: I don’t really have as strong views about this as I did 4.5 years ago, so please tone down my language if you’re reading. Jen and I have since discussed this offline and we’ve both toned down. ) It’s like Asian men can’t catch a break. We’re constantly walking on eggshells within this culture. A rice chaser can almost do no wrong, and an Asian man can do no right. There is no other kind of man that faces so much prejudice within his own culture.

Even within the comment section of your 8A post, we saw some of this. Some AA’s are cool with AA men–as long as we step down, shut up, and remain invisible. If we do any more, we’re villains.

That’s not the worst I’ve heard. I think that award belongs to the Asian woman who said she wouldn’t date Asian men because “they had bad fashion sense.” Reasoning? She went to a multi-racial party once and saw an Asian guy wear white socks with black shoes.

It’s interesting how Asian women as just as racially oppressive as white men.

I think the bad boy image of Asian men is not sexy, mainly because most of us lack some kind of charisma to make it look good.

Didn’t we talk about Asian guys not being charismatic?

I also think a lot of Asians have an inferiority thing going on, whether it’s in America or in the homeland. Westerners have pretty much surpassed us in many endeavors. This translates into a lot of things you are talking about such as the prejudice that AM faces within his own culture, especially coming from his female members.

Rofl dreamer what made you think my tirade was directed at you or your position at all? It wasn’t. We are in agreement.

Well, you started the post addressing me. Also my argument was a pro-statistics argument and you sounded pretty anti-statistics with that example (U did notice that citing a bad social experiment was a bad way to attack statistics, but I didn’t bother to mention it in favor of my other points – now I can see you were just trying to exemplify self-flagellation). With Moroboshi making having a anti-statistics qualifier and you sounding anti-statistics, I thought you were talking to me. Thinking about it now, I can see you were arguing against Moroboshi as he note that most white women don’t interracially means we can’t change that or only a few percent will do that.

@uRB4N: good to see you still around on the Asian issues circuit, I completely agree with your views of how Asian women view Asian men and try to sabotage them at every turn, it happens even outside the US.

I predict that in some time, Asian men will be given the task of being the chivalrous niceguys to take on the burden of single mothers of advanced age and homely looks.
That’s what I see anyway. Women who would never give Asian men a look, until all their other options didn’t pan out.

The sad thing about it is: THOSE GUYS ACTUALLY FEEL GRATEFUL!
Rather than understanding that they need to keep their resources in investments that actually pay off … they actually think being with someone who sees them as a last resort, is something that is going to ensure them a stable relationship/marriage.

An Asian guy who doesn’t know when he’s being tooled/used … is harmful for several reasons:
1. As an example of “You people get along fine with Western society, I don’t see why you’re complaining”
2. As an example of “See! You can get a woman, I don’t know why you’re complaining”
3. As an example of “Nice guys get the girl … in the end”.

The kind of partner an Asian man gets, in some ways, reflects the respect a society has for him (since people usually don’t choose to build a life with someone they disrespect … except as a last resort).

A great example is that clown Fun9876. He posted a link to some study done on OKcupid regarding female response rates by racial mix but when I asked him questions such as the sample size of the study and its geographical demographic, he couldn’t answer me.

This is the thing with studies and statistics. This is what people do: they want to read more into it than they really should. One vague study is worth more than ten rigorous one because it allows parties with vested interests to push their agendas and views.

Do correct me if I’m wrong but I suspect that a lot of studies out there are really not as definitive as they are touted to be. I’ve heard the words “Columbia University study” from the mouths of savants a couple of times already now, but just what exactly is the Columbia University study? Does anybody citing it even know how it was carried out and then by extension what kind of conclusions can and cannot be derived from it?

Unless done rigorously I think that mathematical models are inadequate to explain social phenomenon. I think that the vast majority of studies are more like photographs of phenomenon, snapshots in time and PLACE, but still subject to a lot of subjectivity just like a photograph would be. What factors are focused on, what is left out of the frame, etc etc.

These studies DO NOT determine a man’s fate in the dating world. At best they would be an accurate gauge of perception as well as what women SAY they prefer (because of self-reporting) and it overlooks common sense things like how perceptions as well as human choices and preferences can and do change.

Most critically, studies like these try to “average” things out in order to find a median line for the population but we all know that in terms of mating opportunities very little is to be gained from being “average”. Being “average” today means that you have very little, if none at all, influence or power and that what you own is actually owned by banks.

I apologise if my terminology is imprecise. I did not pass mathematics in high school lol. So anyway, that’s that. I’m getting pretty tired of mealy mouthed savants citing poorly done “studies” to further their own agendas because they’re obviously not treading solid ground when they argue their positions otherwise.

The Columbia U experiment showed that Asian men were seen as the partners of last resort when it came to interracial dating. Why? Because women judge by looks and race, despite the contrary notion of equality. Asian men were at bottom of the totem pole when it came being Mr. Handsome, and had to compensate with money to woo a woman. How hard is it do understand? Maybe they used ugly guys to prove their point, but I think it’s a valid one. Walk down any street and most Asian guys would fit the subjects in that experiment. It proved women were more discriminatory when it came to mate selection. Men in general don’t care much about the particulars when choosing sexual partners, they just want to screw and spread their seed if they see a hot women of any race.

So the study doesn’t say much about reality? So why are Asian men complaining about the interracial dating disparity? The guy who came up with the experiment obviously knew something was brewing because in any prestigious college campus, you see a prevalence of AFs in interracial relationships, but very few Asian men in that sort of entanglement. I can bet that many AFs have tasted the entire rainbow, since there is an increase of AF/non-Asian minority guy couples of late. Some of them have gone out of their way to date Blacks, Latinos, East Indians and Middle Easterners. AMs have yet to branch out in many ways!

“This “Columbia University study” was carried out by undergraduates using SPEED DATING?”

Is it not valid? It showed that both Asian genders had a preference for Whites over their own. Does this surprise you? It also showed that Whites, Blacks and Latinos weren’t so keen on Asians, particularly WFs. The only thing I could say about this, is that Asians are seen as last resort partners for the other groups, which is a testament to many of the White doofuses and less desirables who go out with AFs.

“Women who would never give Asian men a look, until all their other options didn’t pan out.”

Many AMs don’t even make it to 1st base. It’s more of the other way around, when non-Asian men exhaust all other options, they usually resort to AW. I have a White colleague who loves Asian women, an older guy in his early 50s, divorced with kids, and now lives with a White girlfriend who doesn’t support him much, yet she takes his money. He does tells me from time to time that Asian women do make better spouses. I know he’s been seeing AFs on the side. So you see, he is a typical example.

See my point was never to be self defeating. I just don’t understand how Asian males beat themselves up because it’s hard for them to date White females. At least from reading the message boards, I notice a lot of Asian males who hold out dating other races just for a white female. I feel that is ridiculous since they may be passing up potential partners who may not be white.

CHR: I don’t see your point. You keep bringing up all this negativity with Asian Males. It’s almost like someone who isn’t gaining in the HBD argument continue talking about how they aren’t getting anywhere in life because they aren’t wired to succeed. You’ll never see that cause with those people cause it’s a ridiculous way to go through life. As I said before, I have never noticed Asian males having problems more than any other race having problems with women. I really believe it is quite overblown and a marketing ploy by PUAs.

Speaking of HBD. Will something like this clip create more AM HBD followers? LOL!

@Moroboshi
“I feel that is ridiculous since they may be passing up potential partners who may not be white.”
As people KEEP pointing out, men display and women CHOOSE. I am betting to you that it is not AMs that are passing up potential partners – most women only “CHOOSE to see” AMs when all other guys are not interested in them.
The ones that happen to be interested in AMs from the get-go … are thinking in terms of models or entertainers, and collect a harem of clueless Asian guys to provide validation, favours and money for them.

@Chr..
“It’s more of the other way around, when non-Asian men exhaust all other options, they usually resort to AW.”
Correct, but the non-AMs are usually with AWs of reproductive age, along with those AWs having youth and possibly beauty.

There is a statistic that I read, 60% of Asian-Man/Western-Woman pairings fail(end up in divorce), vs. 5% Western-Man/Asian-Woman.
Take it for what you will, but judging from what I see, Asian Man being chosen last is a huge contributory factor.
Imagine living your life with someone who keeps telling you “you are not as good as the guy who dumped me, I wonder why I’m with you” … who also has a child by her previous relationships, and where the possibility of having another child by her is slim, the level of education is low and she’s massively overweight too.
AMs better take a careful look at the women that have them in their life, to make sure they are not being taken advantage of.

@N: lol. our benevolent dictator deemed it so. but it was getting off topic, and personal attacks were being thrown. my posts always get closed. sigh. I should just stick with writing about, oh, idunno… fashion.

Lol, at least it brings people to the table. In my view, the best articles are not the most well-written or best argued, but the one that generates the best comments/discussions. So keep the controversial articles going!

I have a story that may reflect how some AM’s may act which may deter some AF’s from pursuing a relationship w/ them. please note how I wrote SOME AM’s.

So I have a normal cute professional single AF friend (who doesn’t read these types of blogs) who wants to start dating and get into a committed relationship, and is looking for an AM. (no this is not one of those ads…) She supports herself and is not looking to find some AM to pay for her. In fact, her last 2 guys she dated made less than her and she usually had to foot the bill.

Anyways, she meets an older AM last week at a singles event and she was pleasantly surprised b/c he seemed so normal and nice and has got his shit together. They met up again over the w/e as a 1st official date. Here is an excerpt of her emails to me:

email 1:
“so i met up with him yesterday……he spent most of the time talking about how hard dating is esp when he wants to be with asian girls but asian girls don’t want to be with asian guys and how the single life is not great and it sounded like he was very jaded with the whole thing. he seems to be set in his ideas about this. it was interesting!!!!”

email 2:
“yeah i’m turned off by downers…..the blaming how things go wrong due to everyone and everything else and how society is screwing the asian guys b/c the girls lose their cultural sense by dating outsiders is actually a very weird topic to keep on discussing. it’s like he’s got a glimmer of hope in him yet he thinks if he were to think positively in anyway that would be snuffed out.

I think the lesson is that society is hard on a poor Asian brothuh! Especially a guy who is older and has gone through this for years and years…I mean, how much can a bruthuh take? Although I do think that’s a very bad topic to bring up on a first date, totally shows that he’s more concerned about his own agenda than the date itself. I usually waited until the second or third date to bring up the AFCC and how it feels to be an oppressed minority man.

Krypts and N:

I think that guy was starting to attack Akrypti by comparing her life to how much he gets by going out and getting drunk (I still don’t get how that was ever relevant), but it was also starting to get funny. As they would say in MMA: Early stoppage!

Yeah. Multiple things wrong: Negative, bitter, and implied he’s not very successful with women (successful-ness is a trait that matters in attraction). There’s probably other stuff other people can point out too.

It’s an example of what I coined earlier a “Disease of the heart and mind.” A lot of what the statistics shows is the reflection of poor performance and self-infliction. Things that if we address collectively, can change the pattern in the statistics and our collective course of our lives.

To be fair, he sounds older with singles parties and everything. His bitterness and maybe his negativity is something he developed in his later years from his struggles rather than what kept him seeing more success in his life. Still, it is nothing something you want to show on a first date or any date. The fact he didn’t realize, especially at his age, that complaining, being negative, and talking about the difficulties of dating (implying his own abilities) is not something you want to do at a first date or at any moment, shows he’s likely been hurting himself in his performance.

@Raguel

Unfortunately, while we are in agreement that statistics being interpreted proving an unstoppable destiny of our race is the wrong way to interpret statistics, I don’t think Chr is out of bounds to read what he reads from things like the Columbia study. I can postulate that since the study is done with speed dating that it would have some affect on the results. But I don’t think the reality is opposite to what the results found, unfortunately. The situation reads what it reads. Just that the situation is created by factors that is partially by our own collective making. Which means we can change it or at least, if we fail to get critical mass, make the best of things individually.

I totally hear ya. Kobukson was raising an interesting point about the great divide between the sexes, and you brought up another classic instance of this. I mean, how many 30-something single women do we know who are normal, seem to have it all together, but who blabber on a first date about how hard it is to date, how all men are pigs, how–omg, this ex of hers–you’ll never believe what he did, let me tell you–so, first he– and then– as if that wasn’t bad enough, you’ll never guess what happened next– in any case, her clock is ticking, you know, the biological clock that is– and– omg, isn’t that baby soooo cute? yes, over there, you see over there!– so, would you want a boy or a girl for your first baby? what would you name him or her?……I have a list of baby names, in fact it’s right here saved as a Note on my phone, wanna see?…..here, let me show you, it’ll only take a sec….

I hope single men *and* women at this age will be more understanding of one another. There’s going to be baggage and chips on shoulders and that doesn’t mean the man or the woman is a bad apple. It means life has happened, a lot of it, and this is a person who has gotten slightly worn by it all. Hope your girlfriend gives that guy another chance. =)

Although there is a high degree of homosociality in female choice of mate that doesn’t mean that female choice is monolithic and that easily categorised. I remember being told several times years ago by guys who’ve actively dated women of other races, that prior to dating them these women had not even thought about dating an Asian man specifically. It stands to reason that because the majority of white women have zero conception of what to expect on dating an Asian man she would err on the conservative side and check “no” for all the usual reasons women typically don’t date or even talk to strangers! I’ve dated and screwed a handful of white women. In all cases except one they hadn’t even thought they would date an “Asian” guy until I made the move, and even when they ended up doing so in their minds I was just a guy that something clicked with, not an “Asian” guy.

I don’t doubt that Asian guys may have a harder time at all. But these studies in my opinion are still overblown because they don’t shed light on the most important factors.

The guys interpreting these studies make it as if race is the most all important factor. It might not have occurred to them that race might not matter as much as other things when the woman has the opportunity to make a choice in consideration of a balance. Race versus wealth, for example, or versus looks, or versus “Americanisation”, or versus common interests, or versus a lack of suitors otherwise (which becomes a big factor for all women the older they get, and amazingly this starts at 28!).

In fact even a simple analysis of the realities of sex lives can put the proper weightage on race and rejections due to race. Men get the most sex when they are in monogamous relationships. When you first hook up with a girl you practically bonk her for three times a week or more for months (sometimes even years but that idea still makes me lol). Rejection rate is not as important as compatibility in this instance because you only need one success that sticks. As for numbers of different sexual partners, the factors that determine a high number of different partners is the same for men across all races. I don’t need to rehash them all, we already know it. They’re things like wealth, looks, social status and influence, etc.

If you want the numbers then go get wealth and influence. If you want lots of steady sex then hook up and get a girlfriend. You really only need one “hit” from all the approaches and initiatives you make.

It’s a wild guess but judging from the some of the responses in this blog I think a lot of Asian guys don’t really suffer from the IR disparity. I think they suffer from a supreme lack of clue and also mental ossification.

Yeah, the thing is that knowing about the disparity, and talking about it on a date (first or last) are two different things. Nobody wants to be on a date with somebody who is griping. What kind of impression does that make? complaining about ANYTHING should always be kept to a minimum on a date.

@ Akrypti – she is not (as of now) going to give him another chance. Which is the point of why I shared the email. If this is his conversation style on a first date, why would she want a second? Everyone has baggage…. everyone has stuff to complain about and bad experiences to talk about. (believe me, she has had her share. BOTH of her parents passed away to cancer in the last 7 yrs). But despite that, does she whine about how hard her life is on a first date? NO! she wants to talk about cool restaurants she wants to try out, cool bands she likes, TV shows she likes etc etc…

@ bigwowo – cry me a river. “Being an Asian brutha is hard.” puleeeze. Us AF’s don’t need to hear that if you want to date us. Yes, there are things we can analyze till our eyes bleed on AF vs AM vs WM. But when a man and a woman are on a date – no one thinks about what their singular date represents to races and cultures and society (at least neither person should. my friend’s date didn’t get the memo). On a date, you should only think about having a good time, enjoying the other person’s company, and seeing if date #2 is on the horizon.

This guy’s comments and behavior creates a self-fulfilling prophecy for his “sad, hard dating life.” If he didn’t give so much weight to both of them being Asian, he probably would have had a date #2. What AF wants to be reminded that she’s an AF when she’s on a date?!!! All she wants to be reminded is that she’s a desired, attractive woman that any man (regardless of race) will want to be with.

@bigwowo – I know your comment was in fun, right? a little bit of sarcasm I hope.
But I am trying to make a point to all the AM’s out there that actually do believe that NO AF’s want to date AM’s so much so that it oozes out of their essence and infiltrates everything they say or do, which is a major turn off.

Dreamer: Those studies prove nothing. It’s almost like those PUAs showing one side of something without mentioning another side just so they can scare you into giving up your money. If Asian men had it that tough getting Asian women, why is it when I go to Asian clubs ( which I rarely go to) I notice Asian males are having no problems with Asian females. I mean, it’s an Asian club sure but it just proves my point not all Asian women are dating WMs. It’s not a race thing. That would just simplify things. I just don’t get how anyone in this country can complain they aren’t where they want to be whether in dating or career because they are Asian. Not saying it isn’t harder but it’s not like someone is making a law for us to drink from separate drinking fountains.

Good point. I will say this though. If I went on a date and this is my first impression of the guy and he talked about TV shows, restaurants, and bands, I would be so bored out of my mind there would never be a second date. Hands down the coolest first date I ever went on? I debated China-Taiwan politics with the guy so heatedly we were shouting at each other. I ended up marrying him. Another really, really cool first date I went on? The guy recited pi to the 75th digit for me. I guess my point is if I went on a first date and the guy wanted to talk about the contemporary symptoms of a history of western imperialism in east asia and in tow with that offered a personal narrative example of those symptoms, I would totally be game and consider him far more intriguing than the guy rattling on and on about cool bands and restaurants. *shrug*

P.S. Generally: I realize that people aren’t idiots and can probably put two and two together, but please out of respect, if you know my identity, no need to announce it to the world. You know what you know. Kthxbai. =P

“Hands down the coolest first date I ever went on? I debated China-Taiwan politics with the guy so heatedly we were shouting at each other. I ended up marrying him. Another really, really cool first date I went on? The guy recited pi to the 75th digit for me”

Okay, I don’t see much to really contest about. Most white women are probably not hostile, but neutral, so they won’t come to us, but we can move on them and not be immediately closed out(it does mean we need to be more aggressive, which I think we are lacking in that department – another part of our disease). I do agree that race is one of the many factors in attraction. Also the studies don’t reveal the entire pictures, like how they all play out when put together. And for notch counts, taking a person, holding all things the same but just changing his status and/or money (or game – but if you’re hostile to that word – charisma) would have a much bigger effect than just changing what race he is born .

I do want to comment to these sentences.

Rejection rate is not as important as compatibility in this instance because you only need one success that sticks.

Who that one person that sticks is equally or even more important than the rejection rate. The rejection rate plays a major role in that. Who’s more likely to find the one girl that sticks AND be the girl you actually want around? The girl who able to field a good number of candidate? Or the guy who been just keep getting rejected than finally just that one girl appears?

Of course, this depends much more on that factors than just race. But that line seem to argue is all that matters is getting the one girl who likes you. That is wrong. Who she is matters a lot. Your “28 years old” comment is a great example. If she or girls like her been rejecting you for years before, what’s changed at 28? Did she realized that the person she really loves is you? Or maybe is she has a new agenda and that guy she been ignore would do the job?

It’s a wild guess but judging from the some of the responses in this blog I think a lot of Asian guys don’t really suffer from the IR disparity. I think they suffer from a supreme lack of clue and also mental ossification.

So… a “disease of the heart and mind” like I said. IR disparity is not a causation, but a symptom from multiple diseases – what you just said, which can be remedied.

@Moroboshi

Those studies prove nothing. It’s almost like those PUAs showing one side of something without mentioning another side just so they can scare you into giving up your money. If Asian men had it that tough getting Asian women, why is it when I go to Asian clubs ( which I rarely go to) I notice Asian males are having no problems with Asian females.

So you reading the studies and interpreting them as all Asian guys can’t get girls and Asian girls only want white guys? Please understand that the studies doesn’t indicate that at all. It absolutely does not imply that an Asian guy will fail at an Asian club or at any club.

Not saying it isn’t harder but it’s not like someone is making a law for us to drink from separate drinking fountains.

That’s the entire point of what the studies is talking about. We have it harder. Which means playing out a million times or the entire Asian population, we’ll see part of our situation.

@Akrypti

You story makes several good points. Linda’s story doesn’t mean we should only keep ourselves to banal and inoffensive subjects. We shouldn’t over-read to the truer lesson of being a negative whiner.

Also I think there’s a few good lessons from the first date with your husband that we can take from it.

Also… The 75th pi one… I want to ask. Did you took a phone out and checked? I mean past a few digits (for some just 3.14), I could just start making up numbers and how can anyone know.

@ Raquel: I definitely understood Linda’s points, and they’re so valid. A guy shouldn’t be a whiner and yeah, you’ll probably have a few chips on your shoulder, but sure, try to conceal them on the first date. I get that. I just also wanted to point out that a guy shouldn’t be trying so overly hard to be “glass half full” and chirpy that he ends up being boring. In fact, a guy who does that comes off disingenuous. I’d much rather date a “real” guy.

Haha, no, I didn’t verify whether it was right on that date, so yeah he *could* have lied through his teeth, but considering who he was, it was credible to me. And why does everyone always ask that? Am I just gullible or does nobody trust anybody anymore?!

I dunno…maybe it’s b/c I don’t trust any guy on a first date. maybe it’s a NYC thing. But if some dude rattled off double digits into Pi, I would assume he’s just trying to impress me and the numbers were all BS. B/c what normal human being, no matter how smart, would waste their time memorizing Pi? (a “real guy”?) And I would immediately make him repeat it so I can double check. And then I would make him repeat it backwards to make sure he’s a true genius. *shrug* I think this is what they call… “hook, line, and sink her.”
But everyone’s preferences are different in a mate. But let’s reiterate that no one’s preference is a downer that discusses AM’s uphill battle with getting laid…uh…a AF girlfriend, on a first date. =)

AMs better take a careful look at the women that have them in their life, to make sure they are not being taken advantage of.

Hah, sames goes for all other men. But I have to say this, many AMs are fools because of one thing, they usually play the nice guy with a fat wallet. Not only do they overpamper AFs by overspending on them, they are the ones who will pay premium for just about everything from cars to homes. Urb4n is right. They raise the desirability of AFs who aren’t worth much in the 1st place, and do the same with the FOB women who they usually get without much effort. AMs often marry AFs of a lower socioeconomic status and spend a gazillion dollars on them.

Raguel, Why do you need to be a dimwit when it comes to interpreting the Columbia Speed Dating experiment? You emphasize how looks can influence a woman on mate selection. Walaa..Asian men from that study were found to be the least physically attractive. They could have use Asian studs, but in reality, the average Asian Joe isn’t Mr. Hotty for most ladies. The unfortunate thing is that Asian men comprise of a small % of the American population, yet they are also the least attractive in the eyes of many women. One interesting thing about that study is that AFs were the least discriminatory when it came to choosing dating partners, which makes a lot of sense since most IR couples seem to involve an Asian woman.

“@bigwowo – I know your comment was in fun, right? a little bit of sarcasm I hope.”

Haha! Yes, it was in fun, BUT…about an hour after I posted it, I did a doubletake, thinking that maybe I should’ve been more clear. Some of the commenters on this site (I won’t mention names) might take it literally and begin to prepare to spill their guts on the second or third date. Then they’d accuse me of failing them, and then they’d sign up with some PUA class. And we can’t have that.

I think the best advice that I heard about dating–after I was married of course–is that the two people on the date, after the date, should only think about one thing: do I want to see this other person again?

Akrypti:

I could definitely see the appeal of a dude who can recite pi to 75 decimal places. I’d also tend to believe that he was for real if he could do it smoothly. It’s really hard to fake, if you think about it. Try reciting random numbers with confidence as if it’s memorized. It’s hard to fake.

And about it being hard to memorize pi…remember, Asian dudes are the record holders in this endeavor! We do this stuff without even taking bathroom breaks!

I saved the pi recitation for like the 8th date or something like that But seriously, yeah, there are certain things that one should observe when going on dates, and it really doesn’t help if it reinforces the notion that we AM are a bunch of needy whiners. If it tends toward the direction that Akrypti mentioned, great! There isn’t one single dating formula, and it’s a pity when people decide how a date went like umpires calling balls and strikes.

I would recommend that Ms. I-don’t-want-a-2nd-date-with-whiner to actually communicate this fact to him. There’s too much expectation of the sort “If you don’t know this by now, you really suck and deserve to be dateless. Bye now!” Correcting the bad behavior (and communicating the fact that the behavior is bad) is the first step we can take toward improving ourselves. It needs to be done in a non-threatening, non-judgmental way (i.e. it shouldn’t carry shame and embarrassment … that will just make the person even more nervous/cynical/clueless the next time!). Clueless? Then give a clue. This is the kind of tolerance we need.

@cdawg et al… So seriously – you think my friend should tell this MR. AM downer that she and the rest of the AF’s in the world don’t like whiners on first dates and that’s why she isn’t interested in a 2nd? I feel that if she was upfront and honest w/ him, he’d say she’s psycho like all his other past girlfriends or friend-girls. But I will relay the advice. (along w/ the memorizing Pi advice….. lol)
Where is this guy’s wingman to tell him some guidance?
for all I know, this guy could be one of YOU guys….since he talked so much about AF/WM/AM issues. hmmm….. 😉

@ Linda, no do not ask your friend to tell this to the guy. It gets too personal, and such advice is unsolicited. I think that what we mean is that should the opportunity arise we could gently remind AMs on various venues of discussion what’s a common mistake that others do.

“Ughh! I was just thinking about my ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend having sex… I ran into them at the mall the other night, and I just can’t stand to think of them together—can you pass the soy sauce, these noodles are a little bland.”

I am going to vote against putting the burden on L’s friend to give this guy a clue…. Because I just don’t see that going over well for L’s friend….. =X If L’s friend were a very close female friend of this guy’s, then that’s a different story. If the relation is merely “we’ve been on 2 dates,” then omg no don’t do it!

Dreamer: We don’t have it harder than any other minority is my point. You make it seem like being Asian, we are at a disadvantage, more than anyone in this country. I can’t agree with that. Let’s say for a moment there was no such thing as race. Everyone was the same color. You’d still see people complaining about having things harder because they weren’t born with this or that. I mean, a guy who is born with old money is going to have it easier than a guy who is born penniless. A guy who is a 6′ tall athlete is going to have an easier time attracting girls than a guy who is 5′ and overweight. Life isn’t suppose to be equal and fair. We live in America, not a third world country. Opportunities are there if we look for them.

Well, OK, I understand the angle that it might be embarrassing or Mr. AM-downer might get defensive and bitter, but someone has to relay the message to him. Yeah, it should be obvious, but either he got caught up in the discussion and didn’t catch himself sliding into cynicism, or, yeah, he’s clueless. Wingmen? All mine ever did was give PUA advice. I got my current GF by doing exactly the opposite of what they said, LOL.

What I want to avoid is the sort of refuse-to-improve mindset… for some reason (and this is true for a lot of things in this culture) there’s this belief that if you weren’t born knowing it, or with the right charisma, or whatever, you will never attain it, and learning something along the way doesn’t count. It’s better late than never, and an environment that only sends the message “Dating’s difficult for you? Tough!” doesn’t help.

Can I ask you this? Do you think the Asian Interracial Dating Disparity, PUA, the AFCC, and your view of Jewish success with their love for the Humanities, are ALL intertwined to the weaknesses facing AMs. Because I think so, and this why my posts can often seem nonsensical to you.

Everyone knows the Interracial Dating Disparity/Gender Divide is the #1 issue concerning Asian Americans. Your site speaks volumes over and over again regarding this matter, yet there is no discussion of any concrete solutions to it. Quite the contrary, a lot of posters here dance around it with other topics such as PUA and the AFCC, which brings everything back to square one.

@ Moro, Dunno dude – I think you are rather delusional to say Asian guys have it the same just like any other minority guy or White guy for that matter. Just look at the elite college selection process, it’s a good example, Asians, particularly the men have to outscore everyone on the SAT just to be considered a likely candidate. In the dating realm of things, if Asian men didn’t have serious problems in the courtship process, guys like APB/ABCs wouldn’t come into existence. I don’t see a Black or Latino APB character selling this kind of service to his community seriously. It is apparent that many AMs have problems with women. You can be denial all you want, but it’s there, and it’s not a small segment of the population. APB sells his services like hotcakes, so it must be a serious concern.

Really? APB is selling his methods like hot cakes? I think you visiting these PUA sites has gotten you to think the movement is bigger than it really is. Asian PUAs are still a very small fraction of AMs in the US. If you constantly log onto the sites, you’re going to think it’s a pretty big movement. It actually is very small. PUA itself peaked when the VH1 show came out. Since that’s failed, we’ve really seen nothing substantial come out of late. I’m not surprised. A lot of people look at PUAs as a bunch of tricky, lying weirdos. It will never be the standard for men in the dating world. So what if there are no PUA sites dedicated to blacks or latinos. I thought APB wasn’t a site catering to just Asians. Aren’t half of the people working for them white? Most PUAs are white so I don’t get your point. As I said earlier, people of all races have problems with women. You just think Asian Males do more because, A. you aren’t satisfied w your own dating life. B. You’re Asian so of course thats what you’re going to think but fortunately, it isn’t the truth at all. I’ve noticed people who aren’t good with women are most likely going to hang out with other people who also aren’t very good with women.

so the continuation of Mr. AM-downer. here’s a snippet of texts btwn me and my friend. Maybe some dating advice to all your Asian brutha’s out there…. ha ha.

me: “Did [AM-downer] contact you again?
her: “yea, he texts me everyday. lol. I just reply to what he’s saying. nothing more….
…lol I don’t think we were equivocally enamored of each other but I don’t think we should cut the cord.”
me: “would you meet up with him again?”
her: “If he asks. Just to see if he keeps on repeating himself. If he can learn to unlearn his thinking.”
me: “Have you thought about being honest w/ him and educating him about his behavior? I don’t think he will realize his dating faux pas on his own….:
her: “Don’t want to be w/ someone who lacks that self awareness.”
me: “What guy is self-aware? Ha ha.”

I think this guy is blaming being Asian on a lot of things. He just has his sad little mind to blame….

I’m giving the Linda’s date the benefit of the doubt! If he’s older he may be simply less inclined to beat around the bush about things.

Those issues he brought up are relevant to Asian men in general, and I don’t really think that he was out of line to bring them up on a first date – just maybe unorthodox! After all, haven’t you guys discussed things like religion, sex, politics, or any other number of potentially controversial or downer subjects on a first date?

Plus, as an older guy, he may be thinking about suitability for a parenting partner – what Asian-American guy would feel good about raising a son (or daughter) with a partner who might have the attitude that Asian guys have less value than white guys, or would discourage her daughter from marrying an Asian?

I’ve been on first dates with women who have made it clear that they have experienced sexual harassment and feel like the world has been unfair to them as women – is that a downer or just someone being open and honest about the hand that life has dealt them? I gave these women the benefit of the doubt and tried to understand how this may have felt to them without judging them for bringing up subjects that may have been awkward or uncomfortable for me personally.

Ahh yes, the benefit of the doubt is the term that I was looking for. Self-awareness is a tricky thing… when analyzing what went wrong with a date, there’s a long list of things to go down. If the offended party refuses to say what’s wrong from the get-go, that bodes ill for the rest of the relationship (after all, who hasn’t heard the joke of a man asking his wife or girlfriend “What’s wrong?” and when she says “Nothing!”, he’s supposed to know that he’s in some really big trouble? Is that the way things should be?) That said, I myself do make an effort to be more self-aware. But my gf does (usually) bring up issues as they come, and we work to resolve it. It’s worked so far. An ex of mine, on the other hand, kept it all to herself, and boy, when the breakup came, it was very rough—she took very drastic action on something that could have been easily explained and corrected (if it matters, said ex was white, and current gf is Asian, lol).

I wonder if some are missing the point that Linda’s friend doesn’t owe the guy anything. While we’re concentrating on his faux pas we seem to be forgetting that she has zero obligation to go out of the way to treat him with kid gloves or compassion or whatever you’d call it. The basic rules of dating still apply, which is chemistry and comfort is paramount. If Linda’s friend feels none of that then why should she go through the trouble of what some of you are suggesting?

Are we over-reacting? With a different girl who perhaps likes the guy more I’m quite sure she’d be more forgiving of his faux pas.

“I’m giving the Linda’s date the benefit of the doubt! If he’s older he may be simply less inclined to beat around the bush about things.”

What if you went out on a date with an “older” Asian woman and she started complaining about how she has constantly been objectified by so many White men? What if she began to recount the history of how men, in general, have oppressed women over millennium and how screwed up that is. What if she started talking about how hard it has been for women not only in modern countries but in third world nations?

Would you really be applauding her direct, no-nonsense, approach? Or would you be thinking, “If you’re on a date with a guy, you may not want to spend it complaining about guys?”

The example of Linda’s friend shows that even when an Asian woman is on a date with a fellow Asian, some are too caught up in their own victimization to see their own failings as a romantic partner. You are on a date with an Asian woman. What more do you want? I don’t think it’s fair to target such women with such baggage as they are not part of the problem. To imply that such men should be treated with kids gloves just by the virtue of being Asian is patronizing and really does a disservice to Asian men.

I would actually find this hypothetical woman to be refreshingly in touch with a coherent view of history – and I would probably agree with her. Then I would wonder and perhaps inquire what solutions she may bring to the table and how she might have already contributed to changing the landscape of the inequalities she perceives. I might even ask her how she might have dealt with specific incidences of sexism and if she was happy with the outcome and also if she might/could/should have done things differently.

Then I would ask if she believes that things have changed, or are changing, and where she thinks the root of the problem lies – is it parents that are perpetuating the cycle of sexism, is society to blame, are mothers raising sexist boys? What needs to change first; society, the media, or the women themselves? How would you get more women into positions of influence so that they are able to provide a conscience to society? Why or how does having women in positions of social or political influence actually make a difference?

Then I might point out that aggressiveness in men seems to be both worshiped and feared in society and that men who are not so aggressive are often deemed less valuable, so how would one raise a boy to be sufficiently and simultaneously aggressive and sensitive and is this even possible? What is the perfect man? Could you respect a man who earned less than you? Is being the primary child-care provider demeaning to women and would you be willing to do it?

The point is that your hypothetical Asian woman has a legitimate worldview that could be thought of as a downer, yet which, as I hope I’ve illustrated, could open the door to a very stimulating conversation. I could probably even guarantee that she would spend the night with me, and we would continue the conversation over a mid-morning breakfast in bed.

You can’t separate people from their baggage, so even if someone is the perfect first date and you see them again, at some point their baggage is going to come up. Personally, I would rather see the real person on the first date than someone showing fluff and flirtation who later turned out to be a Manson disciple. For Asian men, the marginalization thing is a real issue that Asian people have to stop ignoring at some point. Even if you are an Asian man or woman who marries outside your ethnicity, any sons you have may well face the kind of treatment that this older Asian dude is describing – we can’t just dismiss it as a downer for ever.

So, again, I think this guy deserves the benefit of the doubt – he’s shown his cards, and he’s been upfront about his worldview. To be honest it sounds to me that the guy just wants some indication that Linda’s friend sees where he is coming from – again that’s not too much to ask for on a first date. As such I don’t really understand this talk about whether Linda’s friend should tell him about his “faux pas” – he hasn’t made one! Why doesn’t she just engage him in the conversation genuinely? It seems like everyone is making a mountain out of a molehill just because this guy has brought up an uncomfortable subject.

But IR is a sensitive topic that AFs are very reluctant to talk about. I remember an AF got offended when I commented that Wendi Deng homewrecked herself to a greencard. (It wasn’t even IR related and she’s dating my friend, who’s Asian).

A life partner has to know when to bring things up, and when not to. If I’m taking a client out, and that client happens to be a conservative Christian, it’s okay if that client knows we are atheistic liberals, but it wouldn’t be a good topic for my s.o. to bring up. If Linda’s friend brings it up out of left field on a first date, that’s a bad sign.

Of course, it depends on context. If he and the date met through a mutual introduction or through e-Harmony, it’s a bad thing to do. If they met through bigWOWO, it would be hard subject to avoid.

Also, going to what Danny said: I would hope the friend would be kind enough to let the guy know if she isn’t romantically interested but he believes she is.

And for me personally, unless we met on the 44s or WOWO, I would never bring up religion, politics, or race identity issues on a first date. It’s more likely to end badly than well, even if you agree on issues.

Well sure. I don’t expect dating partners to handle each other with kid gloves or be dating coaches. And if Mr. Downer doesn’t listen to an honest suggestion or gets offended, I would consider it fair for her to write him off. What I have tried to say in my posts in this and other threads is that encouraging or glorifying excessive pickiness in women is what breeds things like PUA in the first place. A little tolerance will go some way toward breaking the chicken-and-egg problem of having both sides’ suspicions about the other confirmed (AM are whiners and AF are traitors).

@Ben Ef… are you out of your mind? If some guy on a first date wanted to discuss women’s issues and gender inequality at length, I would first wonder if he was gay, and then I’d tell him, “Oh, I’m sorry. I signed up for an enjoyable date, not a sociology class. C-ya!”
There would be NO way that a girl would say “oh, gee… maybe we should continue this conversation in bed?” ha ha ha….. delirious.

I think some of you guys need to watch “Millionaire Matchmaker” to brush up on your game. =)

I think you are right that context is everything. That’s why I’m surprised that people are surprised that this subject might come up on a first date – it’s a prominent issue for around 50% of the Asian-American population, why wouldn’t it come up?

Either you are in denial or I’m ignorant. But here is the issue that have been talked about for a long time by Asian guys. They are bothered by the interracial dating disparity. Doesn’t this have to do with their popularity with women. If most Asian men can date all kinds of women with ease, the interracial dating disparity is a moot topic after all. Sites like this shouldn’t even exist in the 1st place. However, it is not, unfortunately.

APB says % wise, AMs represent 40% of the PUA community. This is clearly an overrepresentation for a segment that is 1% or less. Unless someone here wants to point out APB’s faulty statistics, so he can draw in more suckers into his bootcamps, I would have to say he is correct from what I have observed. In the past year, I have seen at least 3 Asian guys hitting on White women randomly here in the streets of NYC. What do you think they were doing? I have yet to see a White or Black PUA in action.

I think that a lot of ‘answers’ to the disparity have been offered throughout the years, but they are seldom taken seriously, because they are drown out by the babble of get-laid-quick plans.

Nobody wants to stop eating the foods that they love and start getting up early to exercise, when there’s a PUA on every corner selling you Insta-Hunk pills that will make you slim and muscular in two weeks, and all while eating ice cream and chocolate velvet cake.

@King
You’re missing the point that PUA isn’t about the looks of a man, it’s the feelings he can stir in the woman.
The idea that a man “must match a woman in terms of looks, career and status”, gets demolished the moment you see “considered sane” women choose to play nice guys like a fiddle while she cries to others about the drama in her life as she tries to hold onto a player, who seems to have very little going for him.
I just take it that someone who chooses to be with players is probably going to try to play a nice guy later in life.
It’s the idea of she tried to outdo a criminal, got played, and is looking for someone to compensate her for her previous bad decisions.
There are a great amount of single mothers looking for nice guys … after they gave away their youth, beauty and fertility to a guy who didn’t deserve it. Soon, AMs will be held up to “be chivalrous and responsible, by marrying a single mother!”.
Reminds me of the idea that we call people heroes because victims get payouts.
There is no such thing as “you made a mistake” when it comes to consensual sex or pregnancy.

Hey Ray, let me try to put it in a better words. What you said get too easily caught up about nice guys, jerks, and single mothers.

@King –

Reading what you said about PUAs, I have to ask do you separate game from PUAs or not? Also do you recognize if there are actually different factions between them?

If not, you’re making a few mistaken assumptions of the entire group. To better work from what P Ray is trying to say, it is about stirring the feelings of genuine attraction. You can say a lot is common sense, but examples like Linda’s friend’s date with that man shows that many even at his age don’t realize that lashing out of how Asian Women hates him doesn’t help.

(Note: To some of the earlier discussion about talking about stuff. Expressing things like the disparity can be “worded” better. There’s plenty of ways to bring the subject up without implying personal frustrations and failure. Whining like that on a first date is not one of the ways).

So much of the material, while common sense probably, have value. Some people need to be explained of things like Linda’s story.

Much of the forums and blogs I seen around revolve more like that than just thinking about getting laid as fast and many as possible. Advice on avoiding stuff like Linda’s story that would not win the hearts of any woman (So the advice above of how he should find another who somehow likes him enough to let it slide – Wrong. He needs a “bro moment” of someone telling him “Dude. You’re scaring them away. Don’t talk about stuff like that on a first date and don’t have to talk like that when you do either.”). Advice about improving skills. Reflections on their own lives. Advice about nutrition and exercise. And other stuff.

The TL:DR version is this: Some common categorized under that group aren’t always obsessed with just notch counts (though I will note that it is valued) and asking for money. They do discuss about more worldly and wider aspects of their lives too.

Now I want to show this link. As your comment, King, reminds of me of it. Especially in the concluding words of Frost’s part 3.

It is a series of six parts of two men who wrote a series of posts responding in-kind to each other. Frost of Freedom Twenty Five stands at one end with advocacy of PUA/Game. Paul Elam stands on the other side and some of his arguments and criticisms follow the same lines as here (like everyone is just a player and etc.)

@ Dreamer, regarding the guy in the example needing some bro advice, you might have to consider that some guys really are too thick and stupid to understand, or too obtuse and set in their ways. How many times have we heard from whiners already, who keep saying “That’s just not me”? Just take a look at some of the responses here defending the guy, making excuses for him and even coming up with wild fantasy scenarios on how it could pan out okay.

@ Dreamer, also to your question about whether King makes a distinction between “game” and PUA, yeah, I think that a lot of the guys here do make that distinction.

We know that there are things women respond to and we wholeheartedly encourage guys to learn these things. When we criticize PUA its mainly directed at the retarded and pathological stuff in there.

My two cents is that PUA can’t be separated from this shittyness because it’s its number one defining feature. Guys who want to learn game are better served staying far away from anything PUA and putting faith in themselves instead.

“You’re missing the point that PUA isn’t about the looks of a man, it’s the feelings he can stir in the woman.”

I was only using weight loss/workout as an analogy. The point I was making was that of hard work juxtaposed against the promise of a shortcut to success. I could have made the same point with long-term investment strategy versus gambling in Vegas.

“The idea that a man “must match a woman in terms of looks, career and status”, gets demolished the moment you see “considered sane” women choose to play nice guys like a fiddle while she cries to others about the drama in her life as she tries to hold onto a player, who seems to have very little going for him.”

You are talking apples and oranges. Most “nice guys” are only “nice” because they are not girl magnets (for whatever reason). But the very fact that they are willing to go over to the PUA dark side, and begin dealing in deception, objectification, and self-satisfaction über alles, indicates that they were never really “nice,” in the first place. Being nice is not simply being without the opportunity to be a heartless bastard, Being nice means that when you think it actually is possible for you to heartlessly take advantage of someone, you REJECT that behavior, out of principle. All PUA adherents have miserably FAILED the true nice guy test.

Secondly, These same guys are absolute hypocrites. You can point out wallflower girls to them all day long, and they are not interested in ANY of them. This one is too plain, that one is too chubby, the other one is not pretty enough. They pursue none of these girls, and completely reject them. Yet, they will orbit the tumultuous relationships of “the beautiful people” and then complain because the beauty queens, cheerleaders, and future fashion models, are no more interested in them than they are in the wallflower girls.

The problem with most “nice guys” is that they do not see themselves as they really are. Read and learn.

We live in an age of equality:
If women don’t want to pursue the men that are nice …
they can hardly complain when they are overlooked.
You are acting as if most men are swimming in a sea of female attention … how very obtuse of you.

The tired idea of “they were never really nice to begin with” … doesn’t make sense when you consider that many of the girls that expect to be treated nicely … were previously ignoring the nice guy while only turning to them as a last resort.
How is that deserving of nice treatment? She considered him a loser … until she had no-one else to turn to.

Your “read and learn” reminds me of the way conservative people think every relationship problem is caused by the man.

I’m pretty sure it isn’t considered “taking advantage” of someone not to help them when they chose to get into trouble … and you warned them previously.
Observe how nicely many women treat their PUA boyfriends.
Isn’t the nice guy also deserving of such treatment?
Or is being treated nicely by a woman (in the prime of her youth, beauty and fertility) a privilege of being a PUA and a jerk?
If so … you’re just pointing out to me that it’s a matter of “survival of the fittest” … and as such your distinctions are moot.

Lol. P Ray’s story sounds very familiar. I used to have a close friend who sounds EXACTLY just like that. You guys want to know what the story was? The story was that when he was seventeen he was actively courting this one girl he met in college. He was doing the whole “gentleman” thing, that’s supposed to take six months before you finally “confess” your feelings to her and become a couple, and she played along with that. Well before the six months was up that girl hooked up with a taller, better looking guy who was also edgier and wittier, and that guy after getting to know her decided she wasn’t really worth being in a relationship with.

My friend bottled it all up. He never spoke about what happened, and resisted all our attempts to pry. He retreated into the world of online video games. When we hung out, the only thing he’d do is watch girls from afar. He’d act like he’s all cool and shit, but he’d never talk to them, never make eye contact, never approach them. A couple of years later I decided I wanted to do more than that. I’d seen how women preferred some guys compared to others and I decided that’s what I wanted to learn. I got nothing but sabotage from him and his circle of friends. According to him, women shit on nice guys, and if you want to be popular with them that would mean you’re a piece of shit, some kind of conman and love cheat.

Fast forward a full decade, and what is he like now? He’s still a computer nerd, who spends all his time on World of Warcraft. His public voyeurism has progressed to glamour photography. He still never makes moves on women, despite joining social circles and having a circle of friends. He’s never had a girlfriend, and is still a virgin unless he’s lost it via hookers. He still believes in weird shit like “women are too complicated”, “women want men who will treat them badly”, and a whole bunch of other mental excuses he’s created for himself.

I make a comparison between myself and him now and decide his scorn, derision and sabotage was well worth it. It cut short a friendship that would have sabotaged and poisoned me at my weakest moments. This is what happens when a guy can’t get past himself. The truth of the matter was, my ex-buddy had gone on a many tentative dates with women over the years, but these were dates where he absolutely NEVER took the lead or took any initiative, NEVER flirted, NEVER teased or otherwise made any sparks fly. His version of “nice guy” was simply being a passive, sexless eunuch.

Women were probably never very important to him. He could have been asexual to begin with, but just bothered about why he could not “fit in” with the rest of society and get a girlfriend just like everybody else, just to look normal.

So you see, everytime I read a frustrated virgin post about “nice guys” and women from folks like P Ray, I call “NERD!” and LAUGH my ass off at their frustrated, asexual virginity! 😀

A lot of Asian men are in denial that many of their bros are in need of dating advice, and that they can’t really do much to narrow the interracial dating disparity. It’s not completely their fault when in fact WFs aren’t interested in them in the 1st place. The fact that Moron(boshi) brought up the topic of AMs being jealous of BMs because of their popularity w/ WFs is a testament, that he and the other guys are in denial that Asian men aren’t doing well in the dating scene as they please, at least the ones who go online and rant about it.

If AMs can date many kinds of women like AFs with men, then we don’t have a problem. But reality tells a completely different story.

Raguel, Moroboshi and King from what I can see,
are merely telling me to double-down on the whiteknighting and keep being played for chumps.

I’m merely putting out my statements for every AM who lurks, to read and decide for himself what to do.

A big problem for your average AM are the AM friends with overbearing and lying characteristics (PUAs without actually admitting to it … but on the flip side, a PUA only got that way because a woman smashed his heart – so can you blame him fully? The idea being he lost what he cared about … so he has nothing to keep humanity alive in him – however that also translates into an unreliable character. Has great stories, lies with aplomb, you foot the bill). Since those AMs fit in very well with a narcissistic culture, and think that somebody will always be there to clean up their messes since consequences don’t happen to them.

They get cachet with AFs and broader society because they hold nobody accountable for their behaviour (except AMs; while saying “Judging is bad, mmkay). APB’s clientele may be 40% Asian … if only for the reason that they labour under a deluge of psychological abuse growing up, whether from parents who thought socialisation was the same everywhere to girls who lie about their preferences and expect great treatment with no reciprocation.

If they’re having trouble dating, they should consider the fact that every dollar spent on a person who doesn’t appreciate you … is a dollar wasted, so they should consider long-term investments like property and equipment. The proper leverage does wonders for men that are normally overlooked, and with the money that they can earn from that, they can go where they are better appreciated.

Of course, thinking in that way can always get spun as “taking advantage of others” … but you don’t see people complaining that when Wal-Mart sells something people want, that they are taking advantage of Chinese workers, now, do you?

What an idiot! Who the hell is asking you to be a captain savin? That’s the oldest con in the book and even a moron could see through its blatancy. Nobody can make you be a white knight if the concept repulses you, nobody can influence you to become one if your very soul rebels against it, so what are you complaining about?

You don’t have a problem with these chumpy little captains, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WOMEN. You feel that you are ENTITLED to something from them, and your low cunning SEIZES on the chance to guilt trip them into conforming to your mould.

You forget, nerd, that you are transparent. Your walls of text are lost behind the frustrated virginity that oozes from them.

@Raguel
You can only be married to one woman at a time.
You desperately need to tell other men to man up so that they step up to those that you previously “loved”. Of course, they chose you too … so they’re culpable in their own behaviour.
Sell that snake oil somewhere else.

@Raguel
Keep running your PUA game …
and then keep telling AMs they should just “man up”.
Because it’s no fun having women from your previous relationships, making you have to “eject from a set” before you get “DLV”-ed.
Again, every AM watching our discussion … should realise that you are EXACTLY the kind of person that is going to be their biggest handicap towards living a life that is free of drama.
The player-masquerading-as-a-nice-guy.

@Raguel
Shaming language again. I bet you mix it up by being playful, and indifferent.
Because the only thing that matters is getting laid …
while telling other men that to think in that way is shameful.
You must be a big fan of cognitive dissonance 😀

You see a lot of that in “Hitch”. I guess you never watch movies? Or even see what passes for headlines?
Remember … just because someone read about a crime in a newspaper … does that make him a criminal?
You need to work on your reading comprehension.

@Raguel
The only time people bring up issues of injustice, is because they’re frustrated?
Amazing.
So, I guess all those white people that didn’t agree with slavery … were simply frustrated they didn’t have their own slaves.
Asians standing up for their rights … are simply frustrated that they are being treated as second-class?
Nothing to do with injustice? nothing to do with doing the right thing? Nothing to do … with equality?
Then again, a PUA’s game only works when other men are willing to clean up his mess.
That’s becoming tougher each day 😀

Oh I’m sorry, p ray. Did I hurt your feelings? I’ve just re-read your one hundred bloody tears of anguish in this discussion and suddenly I pity you. You really can’t control it, can you?

Trust me, there is hope. You will find a girl who’s not a washed up hag and she will love you back. When that happens you’ll realize your OCD over this does not rule lives like you’ve made it put to be.

When you finally meet that girl, you can finally start. With holding hands. 😀

“The tired idea of “they were never really nice to begin with” … doesn’t make sense when you consider that many of the girls that expect to be treated nicely … were previously ignoring the nice guy while only turning to them as a last resort.”

So then show me the nice guy who does not think he has a right-of-birth to end up dating bombshell babes and heart-stoppers, and I’ll show you a real nice guy, who doesn’t have many problems with women, because he has a healthy and REALISTIC expectation of them. But most PUA types are looking for a 10 even if they are a 2. they think there are some cheap psychological tricks that will make this happen. They are wrong.

“Raguel, Moroboshi and King from what I can see,
are merely telling me to double-down on the whiteknighting and keep being played for chumps.”

I can say this, but through experience, I know that it will not work. But I’ll say it again anyway, just on General Principal.

There is only one thing that I’ve ever seen work long term, when good looks and wealth were not the primary romantic motivators. It goes back to Shakespeare’s line in Hamlet, spoken by Polonius to his son Laertes, “…and above all things, to thine own self be true.” That is to say, that if a person truly seeks out their own interests and true passions, and lives a life in accordance to their own enthusiasms, they will find that EVERYTHING becomes easier. But women sense a person who is sure of themselves, comfortable in their own skin, and passionate about what they love. A person like that is infectious, and people love to be around them, including women.

But that’s all I’ll say, because it’s an answer that avoids “magical thinking,” and people don’t really want to change their lives, they want an easy answer that will turn them from frogs into princes, in two months or less.

@Raguel:
Whatever. You need other men to bail you out, more than they need you.
Besides … your shaming only works, when the person you are working against, has a stake in getting the girl to choose him over you. If someone expects that everybody pays for their decisions … you can keep her, she’s demonstrated the ability to choose poorly.

@King:
You mean, passionate about the things that attract women.

There is a reason why many of the engineers in Silicon Valley are single, and it isn’t because of “lack of passion”.
If women have such great sense,
why do they initiate most of the divorces in modern marriages?
Unless …
they married the guy they wanted to divorce,
but previously were only with guys they were attracted to?

The reason that many of engineers in Silicon Valley are single, is because they have allowed their career passion to define ALL of them. They have become single-minded and ultimately predictable. Notice when I mentioned interests, passions, and enthusiasms, I use the PLARAL tenses. You cannot think that you have only one passion.

Secondly, if single male engineers in Silicon Valley were going exclusively after single female engineers in Silicon Valley then there would be no problem, but they are usually longing to date some woman who they have nothing in common with, but whom they only perceive as physically attractive.

I can see the conditioning also goes deep …
when men are shamed for getting help with becoming more attractive to women,
yet “Cosmopolitan” is lauded worldwide … which, surprise surprise, gives tips/ploys on women becoming more attractive to men.

@King:
Again, why is it always the men doing the chasing?
What’s up with that? We live in an age of equality.
Women cannot claim that the men they are interested in … are not interested in them … when they make no attempt to contact those men!

“they are usually longing to date some woman who they have nothing in common with, but whom they only perceive as physically attractive.”
So, wanting a woman for how she looks is wrong …
but wanting a man for his wallet or “fun times … is right?

Don’t be ridiculous, King.
Or do you mean “men do the chasing in an obvious way” while women do not?
Unless you acknowledge that a man being chased is obviously “worth” being chased?
The same as a woman being chased, is “worth” being chased?

The idea of “nothing in common” is a red herring.
On this board, we all have something in common – we’re human beings with likes and dislikes.

@P Ray:“There is a statistic that I read, 60% of Asian-Man/Western-Woman pairings fail(end up in divorce), vs. 5% Western-Man/Asian-Woman.”
Where did you get this 5% from? I’ve read that WM/AF couples have a higher than average divorce rate. Also, stop feeding the troll.

Here’s something that I dug up:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3729.2008.00491.x/pdf
white female/asian male couples are 59% more prone to divorce than white/white coupleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States
According to social studies by Jenifer L. Bratter and Rosalind B. King gender plays a significant role in interracial dynamics.[9] White wife/Asian husband couples are 59% more likely to divorce by the 10th year of marriage than White wife/White husband couples, whereas Asian wife/White husband couples show only 4% greater likelihood of divorce than White wife/White husband couples over the same period.[9] Social enterprise research by the Columbia Business School (2005–2007) concluded that while East Asian women statistically prefer East Asian men for marriage, they show no discrimination against White men, causing Asian women/White men pairings to consistently become the prevalent form of interracial dating & marriage in the United States.[6]

P Ray, clearly the white female/Asian male couples are more likely to divorce. The white females who tend to marry Asian males are usually less physically attractive and older women. Amongst white females its not considered a catch to marry an Asian male due to the perception of being lower value so the ones that do tend to be more the outcast/reject type amongst their peers. This would also cause bitterness and resentment from the Asian male. This is a recipe for instability in a relationship.

The stability for white male/Asian female couples most likely comes from the Asian female viewing the white male as higher value or a perceived good catch so willing to put up with more crap even if the guy is a douche. It’s definitely not some sort of relationship skills mastery that white guys have got.

@ P Ray:“Again, why is it always the men doing the chasing?
What’s up with that? We live in an age of equality.
Women cannot claim that the men they are interested in … are not interested in them … when they make no attempt to contact those men!”

Unfortunately, women who pursue men are usually treated as being of lesser value. Men are expected to show the courage to pursue, and the courage to fail sometimes as well. It is our lot in life.

For better or worse, it is the way of the world. There is absolutely nothing to be gained complaining about that, because it achieves exactly jack shit. Far better for you to take a deep breath and get out there. Be yourself – but the best version of yourself that you can be.

I was once the nice guy who complained, just like you, about how nice guys got the short end of the stick. And you know what? That sort of talk is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because it’s pathetic and women run a mile from pathetic.

Women dig confidence – and it just so happens that a lot of dumb assholes are very confident. Here’s what I worked out – be a confident nice guy who is also reasonably interesting and intelligent, and you’d have a massive advantage over all the confident dumb assholes out there, who are usually not particularly interesting or intelligent. And you’ll also have a advantage over the confident slightly more cunning assholes out there (otherwise known as PUAs), who seem intelligent and interesting but are usually only pretending to be.

If I were you I’d start by paying heed to King, everything he’s said here is gold.

Oh, and can I just point out that the whole “women just treat nice guys like shit” thing is, when you think about it, pretty damn sexist. Not the sort of thing truly “nice” guys should really be believing, since nice guys are meant to respect women.

“Here’s what I worked out – be a confident nice guy who is also reasonably interesting and intelligent, and you’d have a massive advantage over all the confident dumb assholes out there, who are usually not particularly interesting or intelligent. And you’ll also have a advantage over the confident slightly more cunning assholes out there (otherwise known as PUAs), who seem intelligent and interesting but are usually only pretending to be.”

Truth.

“Oh, and can I just point out that the whole “women just treat nice guys like shit” thing is, when you think about it, pretty damn sexist.”

It’s also a fallacy. Women are not monolithic in their desires and wants. Some men make it seem that way in order to soothe their fragile pride.

The problem is that a PUA has to settle down too…
and that means one way or another women are going to have to do without the guy that gives them the tingles.
Meaning that if they (both the PUAs and women) think they have the upper hand …
they’ve got another think coming.
World is fast going into recession … and it won’t be the nice guys who finance the PUAs anymore.
And the thing to remember about the dating and marriage situations of the future:
university student loans, are never forgiven.
The person with the huge debt … will find it hard to get married.
So one way or another, smart men who understand their own worth, can get what they want without being underhanded or desperate.
(I realise this is turning into a “spill-your-secrets” section, and I’m not going to … 😀 )

@Eurasian Sensation:
“women just treat nice guys like shit” thing is, when you think about it, pretty damn sexist. Not the sort of thing truly “nice” guys should really be believing, since nice guys are meant to respect women.

I wonder why PUAs are always with attractive women. That means they are disrespecting unattractive women.
Your argument, cuts both ways.

We all already know your secret. You spilled it waaay up there where you mentioned “investing in something that gives real returns”. We all already know that you mean spending your whole life acquiring money so that you can buy and coerce women with it.

This is not a new approach, and it certainly isn’t novel.

Good luck setting yourself up for failure, big boy. Once you get out of your tiny pool you’re going to find out which sharks you’ll be swimming with. 😀

Chr: Why am I a moron? Cause I don’t think Asian males have it tough? I think it’s a perception but it doesn’t mean it’s true. Why is there a disparity? Think about it. Males in general are the ones who ask out females. if Asian Males aren’t doing there part asking out WFs like WMs are asking out AF. Of course there’s going to be a disparity. I never said there wasn’t one. What I don’t agree is people see AMs as less attractive that being the reason. One reason I think if there is a problem with AMs and dating is their pickiness. I have had Black and Latino friends and they are not even half as picky as my Asian ones. I think the reason we see such a disparity at least in this message board are Asian Males being ridiculously picky, like they are owed a supermodel. Also I see a comparison with black females and asian males in regard to anger toward the gender dating Whites. What I notice the difference is, the black females who complain want to date black men while the Asians who complain want to just really date white women. The AMs are mad cause they don’t have the guts most of the time to approach and when they do, it’s supermodel head turners they are going after who most average people can’t get. Again, this isn’t everyone but I believe the majority of the complainers. CHR, you really believe Asian males are considered the worst looking males in America? You’re telling me the majority think BMs are better looking than AMs? I think for 1 you find that does, you’ll find 1 that doesn’t. So what does that tell you? It’s not a majority thing. As I said, AMs have it th same as any other minority in terms of being judged on looks. CHR, you watch too much TV and need to go out in the real world.

Except for the fact that they aren’t… Oh, they can show you pictures of themselves with attractive women, but that’s not a hard trick to pull off. How many of them bring in their actual girlfriends or wives? Who is APB married to? OK?

the whole “women treat nice guys like shit” …. when translated from a guy’s mouth is, (c’mon, let’s be real) hot women don’t go home with the nice guys.
Women aren’t mean-spirited humans. Just b/c a guy is nice (translation: insecure virgin) doesn’t entitle him to get the most desired woman in the room. Just b/c a guy is insecure among women doesn’t make him nice either. (!!)
Also, just b/c a woman is hot doesn’t necessarily mean she DOESN’T want to go home with the nicest guy in the room.

It seems that some of you are smothering all your theories and ideas onto your dating game, so that you really have no game. Maybe some of you don’t like the word “game” but it is a game in the sense that you have to do things strategically. Strategically does not mean dishonestly or “fakely” or being a PUA or whatever. And how does one play the game strategically? Well, ES offered some good ideas. And even though most of you may shun…..SHUN watching “the Millionaire Matchmaker”, it will probably be your wisest move b/c you see the same mistakes guys make over and over again. And the same mistakes girls make and the tried and true things that do work to get someone to be interested in you, the real you.

King: You are so right with that hype photos PUAs try to show to sell their bootcamps. I’ve seen a lot of these PUAs putting a picture of themselves with an attractive woman, and if it’s an Asian PUA site, she’s white, but inadvertently give themselves away on their field reports as bullshitters after months of posting that pic as their profile say something like, “I haven’t slept with a white girl since college, this will be a first” or something lame like that. How easy would it be to go to another far off city, London, say you’re an American and want to take pics with such lovely girls and then never see them again but using their pics with you as something more than that. I believe King said that awhile back.
The only thing PUAs that make sense with are things that are common sense, ie It’s a numbers game, make yourself more attractive by dressing better, and working on your weight, etc.

Going back to alleged “Mr. Downer”, I’m still not convinced of his “faux pas”, or that he has engaged in any kind of aberrant behaviour. If you remove the subjective language and viewpoints that have been placed on what the guy said – things like “whiner”, as well as misrepresentations of what the guy may have actually said, because bear in mind, that people always exagerrate their dating experiences – then what you have left is really not that big of a deal.

The guy has brought up an uncomfortable subject for the girl, to which she should be responding to – that is, if she doesn’t want to talk about it, then say so, or if she simply doesn’t agree with what the guy is saying, then say so. Simple! But what it seems like to me, is that she has let the guy go on – perhaps for some masochistic reasons, known only to herslf and her close friends – without so much as a yawn.

As someone who hasn’t actually dated an Asian-American woman, in my experience if I were to bring up a controversial subject with most of my previous dating partners, they would have stood their ground and given as good as they got. And this is an important point for this subject because it kind of seems to me that Linda’s friend just doesn’t have a strong personality. After all, days after their supposed horrible date, she still hasn’t been able to get he message across to him that she is not interested in that discussion – otherwise why does he seem to think that he can still discuss it? He has apparently been given no indication that this conversation is unwelcome – that’s not his fault, because he can’t read minds.

For Asian guys stuck on Asian women, you just have to realize that many Asian-American women are just not very effusive with their emotions or their intellect, and that you may well have to read between extremely poorly defined lines to actually know where they are coming from, and what they are thinking – as this example of Linda’s friend seems to show. Of course, this is a generalizion based upon my encounters with Asian women in the workplace, but it is only fair to recognize this dimension of the bigger picture. For example, an African-American or Caucasian woman – if they disagreed with him -would have been likely to say up front to this guy something along the lines of “that’s bullshit, and here’s why”, and the date could (possibly) have moved on.

As for bringing up the subject of Asian male marginalization – there really isn’t a “good” space to do it, because regardless of the platform or place, it is always labelled as “whining”. Just look at Byron’s blog – which highlights the experiences of Asian men – and the accusations of whining still fly here from some commenters on his posts.

Wow, I leave for 2 days and the thread explodes into another PUA mudslinging session My beef with PUA has basically been what King said: PUAs claim to have the complete map of the female mind and that EVERY woman thinks this way. Approaching dating any other way makes you a loser or chump. Ben seems to be getting a lot of flack… he makes some valid points, though—we men, Asian or otherwise, can’t read minds. Especially the minds of near-strangers. There seems to be an attitude along the lines of “Women don’t say what they want, but they have every right to be pissed off if they don’t get it!” (Ok, I saw that line on a T-shirt, LOL, but it seems to be true in troubled relationships I’ve seen, and the T-shirt maker had to have gotten the idea from some grain of truth! Sorry, no hard numbers for this :). PUAs capitalize on this idea that a woman has the absolute power to reject for any reason at all, no matter how frivolous—they have a right to be difficult, and it is the job of us men to break it with the right bunch of smooth talk. Rather than, say, trying to form a genuine connection (that stuff is supposedly only for people who want to be stuck in the friend zone!)

Ok enough PUA business. BigWOWO, et al. have made another important point (now in a whole ‘nother post!) that I agree with (and something that I myself took a while to learn): you need to have reached a certain level of comfort in a relationship before you start discussing “heavy” topics such as religion, politics, and generally controversial issues such as dating disparity and such. I used to think “I don’t do small talk, because I like to make room for big talk!” Experience has taught me that those kinds of things just don’t go over well, even when you’re not complaining you’re a victim. It leads to rejections of the type “lack of chemistry.” That’s because big talk doesn’t generate (the right) chemistry; it’s the flirtiness and playfulness that does. Big Talk chemistry is what you need for later development (not necessarily much later, but definitely later). And those controversial topics can, without a doubt, be great conversations.

The talking/ eating part of my dates last half an hour, MAX. It is light food or coffee or some kind of cocktail, it’s just to put her at ease and make her comfortable. Afterwards I bounce to somewhere fun and spontaneous like a music bar, comedy club, wine bar, theatre if a short show is on, a club or even the arcades (if the place is not smokey).

At the second venue I slowly ramp up the seduction and see what her responses are like. How fast does she go? What is she comfortable with? How much does she REALLY like me? What does she respond to and what does she hate (lol).

The reason I do it like this is because:

If she wants intellectual stimulation she can go to a thousand blogs and internet forums for it. When she’s with me it will be for something speshul.

I understand where you are coming from. You have a desire to be “fair” to this guy. But dating is not exactly that. If you went on a FIRST date with a girl, and when she showed up, her hairstyle was hopeless, she put her clothes together as if she had never looked into a fashion magazine, and she was wearing cat glasses.

Would you say to yourself, “Out of fairness, I need to tell this girl what I don’t like about the way she puts herself together. If I don’t tell her what I don’t like about her style then she will never know to change?” Or would you simply say to yourself that she’s not for me (or most of the guys that I know) and just choose to move on to the next possibility?

@Ben In the world of dating, no one has an obligation to be the “teacher” to their date. That’s what friends and wingmen are for.
And it seems to me that cdawg, Raquel, King, and many others here are TRYING to be your friend here and show you “the way,”, but you are simply refusing.

From a girl’s POV and a little tip, until you have her fallen for you, she won’t be forgiving. If the guy plays by the traditional dating rules, his chances of her being into you is good. Once a girl is into you, she can be very forgiving and you can talk about the IR disparity till your tongue falls off and she will probably still like you. But until you pass that threshold of her being unsure about you vs. liking you, you just gotta obey some universal laws of dating.

and BTW, if my friend was uncomfortable about his going on and on about him talking about how hard it is for AM’s to date AF’s – she was probably pretty silent. If he didn’t understand that she wasn’t really saying anything back, he needs to up his score on the social intelligence scale. And most women try to be polite on first dates – we’re not gonna say “Shut the F up! I don’t want to hear you yammer on and on about this shit anymore!” Instead, we’re gonna smile and make as little eye contact as possible and look at our watch, and NOT ask when we’re going to hang out again. …which is a big SIGN in itself.

jeez…no wonder that Asian playboy dude actually makes money off his shit. There really is a need for some guys to learn some basics.

Linda: But is that what a PUA guru teaches? The basics? Should it cost thousands of dollars to learn? Your friend’s date eventually will learn on experience maybe he shouldn’t be quick to talk about IR disparity. I remember one of my friends who went on dates with WFs and kept bringing up to them constantly about being Asian. One girl told him it turned her off cause it seemed like he was insecure. The best way to learn is experience. How do we know PUA gurus know any better? Most of the ones as King pointed out that you see never have a girlfriend or wife. You got to question that. You think if they had a hot wife or girlfriend, they wouldn’t flaunt that to get more students? Obviously they do not.

@Linda Ah! My only focus is always on my date. I put the world and poltics on hold. I usually tell my date how beautiful she is. I touch her hand and gaze into her eyes and gently kiss her lips. The biggest key is to make her smile and blush. I have no problem with that.

“Ah! My only focus is always on my date. I put the world and poltics on hold. I usually tell my date how beautiful she is. I touch her hand and gaze into her eyes and gently kiss her lips. The biggest key is to make her smile and blush. I have no problem with that.”

AND THEN YOU WAKE UP, and remember that its been years since you’ve actually been on real date! But then your collection of vintage comic books beckons you from the corner, from the creepy makeshift shrine which you have erected for them over the years… Oh well, you can always count on them… the Green Lantern will never let you down…

Did you actually read my post? Where did I say anything about being a teacher?

You’ve basically agreed with everything I said about Asian-American women, but you don’t seem to realize it. Looking at your watch, not making eye contact, whilst smiling, are all very contradictory messages – the first implies simple rudeness, the second shyness, or intimidation, and the third suggests that you may actually be liking, or open to what the other person is saying. So, as you can see, your friend – if she did all these things – has conformed to my description of my experience of Asian-American women; you have to read between some extremely poorly defined lines to know where she is coming from. Furthermore, days after this “disaster” of a date, she is still responding to his messages! All the more reason to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

People actually do converse on first dates! And not just about MTV or the weather. There is a give and take, people put out topics of conversation, and hopefully, they come to an understanding of what the other person believes about a given subject. In the process you might gain some insight into the actual character of the person you are on a date with; does this person have a good sense of ethics, do they seem fundamentally honest, you might even discern the strength of your date’s personality based on their opinions. But, you have to engage – that’s the only universal rule of dating, everything else is your personal preference and, to be honest, your advocacy for Asian-American women’s dating rights makes them seem mindless.

On a final note, where is this need for forgiveness in talking about the IR disparity? That suggests that – as I noted – there is no room in the Asian-American dialogue for this issue, even between loving partners who might tolerate it only for the sake of the greater good of the relationship. Personally, I don’t talk about IR (nor write about it on my blog), because I couldn’t care less about who people date, but I do think it raises some issues that make its resolution pretty important. So, to dismiss it on all levels is tantamount to dismissing Asian men. Also, what are the universal rules of dating?

King…

I’m not saying anything about trying to change someone, and it’s not a given that talking about controversial subjects on a first date has the same degree of inappropriateness as the scenario you described. You’re basically saying that it’s wrong to talk about controversial subjects on first date, because it wrong to talk about controversial subjects on the first date?

Siegfried…

According to Linda, when an Asian woman smiles a lot it means she thinks that you are an asshole.

“I’m not saying anything about trying to change someone, and it’s not a given that talking about controversial subjects on a first date has the same degree of inappropriateness as the scenario you described.”

Well, it’s not just a case of controversial subjects—although one REALLY has to tread with caution on those at so early a stage. But there is a pretty clear line when the controversy you are discussing is about the person on the other side of the table.

It’s probably best:

-not to say that bankers have ruined this country if you are on a first date with someone who is in the banking industry.

-not to go on a tirade about how religious fanatics are all idiots, if your on a first date with a seminary student.

-not to begin carping about how hard and unfair it is, for a Asian guy to date an Asian girl, if you are on a first date with an Asian girl.

I forgot where the post is located but Linda is the girl that kept talking about a “kiss against the wall.” If she like that kind of kiss, I can accommodate. The only thing that I would do different is to take my shirt off. It would be a bare skin kiss.
@King Are you jealous of me?

@Ben…. YOU SAY:
Looking at your watch, not making eye contact, whilst smiling, are all very contradictory messages – the first implies simple rudeness (YES AND, WHEN WILL THIS STUPID DATE BE OVER?), the second shyness (NOPE, IT MEANS, I’M REALLY NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU B/C I’M DISINTERESTED), or intimidation, and the third suggests that you may actually be liking, or open to what the other person is saying (NOPE, IT’S NOT A SINCERE SMILE, BUT A GRIN AND BEAR IT SMILE, LIKE WHEN YOU SMILE W/ YOUR TEETH CLENCHED) So, as you can see, your friend – if she did all these things – has conformed to my description of my experience of Asian-American women; you have to read between some extremely poorly defined lines to know where she is coming from.

I see a few ppl need to up their score on the social intelligence scale. Bigwowo had a post on this – the book on Emotional intelligence, which I have read. Reading ppl’s behaviors is not that hard after you become more observant. In my friend’s words – being more SELF-AWARE. Context is everything as well.

If an Asian woman thinks you’re an asshole, she won’t even look your way.

@Sieggy – no it wasn’t kiss against the wall. It was throw me against the wall and kiss me hard. yup, shirts not required.

in any case, I will keep you guys updated on Mr. Downer and friend if there are any twists to the story….

I think I understand where you are coming from. I have a couple of students, who are brothers, who come once a week for guitar lessons. Around the 2nd week the older brother started yawning during the lesson, not making eye-contact, and sighing with apparent boredom. Yet, strangely, at the begginning and end of every lesson, he is upbeat, is genuinely thankful, and excited about practicing the things he’s been taught. I couldn’t understand why he would pay the 50 Euros every week for something he seems to not want to do.

Then I started to realize that this behaviour occurs when my attention is on the boy’s brother – so although it seems as thought the kid is bored, he actually simply wants my attention and is very interested in what I’m saying, but is competitive with his youger sibling.

This sounds much like the behaviour that you are putting forward as normal social behaviour of Asian-American women – the problem is, it’s only normal if you are an adolescent. So again, this is forgiveable if you are a child but in adult relationships it’s not very informative or appealing. It is completely vague and confusing, not to mention immature and even ignorant, and there is no amount of social skill that can, or should prepare anyone to interpret these ridiculously vague signals.

The more you write, the more it seems that the charge of social retardedness could be equally applied to both parties on this date.

King…

I think that you are assuming that Linda’s friend’s date carped and was somehow rude. I don’t think either of us know enough to make this assessment based on what we have been told. Given that Linda (and possibly her friend too) seem to believe that the subject of Asian male marginalization – of which IR is only one aspect – should only be mentioned in the confines of a loving relationship (where one might be forgiven for entertaining the very thought), I think it’s fair to question her interpretation of the events.

I’m extremely excited by this conversation because it highlights an aspect of Asian-American gender dynamics that is completely ignored, especially with regard to marginalization and social awkwardness of Asian men in dealing with Asian women. The onus has been on Asian men to step up – which I agree with 100% – but the fact remains that many of us do seem to encounter Asian-American women who (like Linda’s friend) have extremely cryptic ways of communicating what they are thinking or feeling at any given time and are at least 50% responsible for mis-communication.

Linda insists that mis-communication occurs because Asian men lack the social skills to read these heavily encoded messages from Asian women, yet she also insists that there are universal rules to dating that everyone should abide by. I maintain that there are also universal rules of social engagement that Linda believes need not be followed by her friend – which is why she excuses vague, misleading, disingenuine and even, perhaps, dishonest responses in social interactions – this makes her assessment of his actions dubious to say the least.

Ben, WTF are you saying? What I got from you epically long and obtuse essays is 1. You you say it is the Asian Woman’s fault that she have no backbone when a guy makes a depressing fool of himself. 2. You gave a hell of a pretentious and five paragraph long way to call Linda and Asian woman socially retarded.

Dude, your advocacy about broaching all subjects including IR on a First Date is misplaced. The one thing I know I’m getting from you is you find the idea of reserving some subjects to a later stage as somehow unreasonable. That people should talk about anything without consequence. Well, in practice, some stuff create different effects. Telling funny stories or some type of adventure tend to impress people. Telling down-beaten complaints then to raise pity at best and resent at worst. Does this mean we can never openly discuss the Asian Male Dating Scene? No, but it doesn’t mean it will be a net positive when talking about it in a defeated fashion. Also, I’m sure if someone goes and do the same thing to a girl of another race saying how the Asian race have it so hard at attracting women, it won’t generate attraction either and probably push them away and by a large amount.

@Moroboshi. I must have respectfully, but strongly disagree. The disparity exist, while I can agree that it is not merely the color of our skin, it is semantics. Being Asian is more than just skin. I think “The Stats” post paints a good picture if you think about it. We are given less status and while status is status and status is not race, it is correlated with it. Along with so many other things that is common with being born Asian. So Asians do have it harder, part is self-inflicted, part is not, and all of it creates a feedback loop. When played out a million times, it adds up. Your arguments that your group of friends are doing okay is not convincing.

Ben, you are actually talking about two separate things. One, what kind of conversation is appropriate for first dates, and two, how does one communicate that something was inappropriate.

So as for the first issue, conversations can be about anything. Yes, it takes more than sports or weather to generate that chemistry. It is also a question of presentation—conversations about the same subject can differ wildly in effect. If Mr. Downer was bringing up the social issue to help each other relate as Asian Americans, and discussing it because it seemed interesting, that could very well make a good date (Perhaps that’s how it worked for Akrypti and China-Taiwan politics). On the other hand, if he presents it in a resentful way, being bitter downtrodden and (gasp!) whiny manner, that’ll make it sucky. Yeah, as King said, don’t hate on bankers on a date with a banker (Actually, I might just accept that date and do that just to piss them off )

As for issue #2, I think you’ve definitely got this right. In order for relationships to work out, social intelligence has to work both ways—as the cliché goes, it takes two to tango. Again, a common model of how relationships go is that it’s the man’s job to be socially intelligent; the woman can do anything she wants, including deliberately putting messages between poorly defined lines. The more information you can extract from that, the more awesome a guy you are! And women only want to date awesome And PUA purports to make you into awesome. But I think we can do better than that. We might not live in an age of equality yet, and men still are expected to take the lead, but that’s not the same as a woman being completely passive and uncommunicative (putting the burden on the man to figure every single detail out in every interaction).

I concur with the points and issues raised by Dreamer, Linda, King, Jstele, Byron, and a whole bunch of others.

It saddens me that some BASIC concepts of human interaction just cannot be grasped by some of our brothers.

It saddens me more that they’ll push ideas and ideals not grounded in the real world and go to great lengths to write paragraphs and paragraphs of text that show only that they’re lost in a world of their own thoughts within their own minds.

It saddens me the most that young and impressionable men lacking wits and life experience may adopt these handicapped, autistic mindsets and attitudes and become unwittingly celibate for life.

Thanks for that very-well-reasoned response – finally someone gets it! As for your point one – I completely agree. I gave Linda’s date the benefit of the doubt initially because people were making the point that there was some kind of inherent error in this guy bringing up the subject of Asian male marginalization. I agree that if the guy was griping or whining then there is a problem. But I’ve read nothing that convinces me that he was attacking the girl or whining in any way!

The more Linda reveals about her own way of thinking convinces me that the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt because it seems obvious that Linda (and her friend) are almost completely intolerant of any discussion of the issue in almost all circumstances, and that it’s probable that all it would take for this guy to be accused of whining would be for him to merely say one word about it. So, we simply cannot trust Linda or her friend to offer an objective representation of how the guy presented his conversation. Like I said earlier, there are many commenters who criticize bWW for talking about Asian male marginalization on this very blog which is geared towards that very subject – so if not in platforms like this, then where does this dialogue take place?

People seem to be thinking that if I suggest that Linda’s friend should have engaged the guy that she is somehow catering to some unspecified and undefined social psychosis – and that this turns their first date into a nanny-child relationship.

As for point 2 again I agree, but I think that it is only Asian-Americans who seem to think it is normal for women to be completely emotionally and intellectually restrained and socially ambiguous on first dates – I don’t agree that it is normal or even expected.

Ben thinks that ” it is only Asian-Americans who seem to think it is normal for women to be completely emotionally and intellectually restrained and socially ambiguous on first dates”
Whoa. This dude seems like a keeper! I mean, what female doesn’t want some guy who isn’t so open-minded??!!

Socially ambiguous? hmmm….so that’s why millions of single people in the dating scene are always thinking “I wonder if s/he likes me? like really really likes me?”
Socially ambiguous to you may mean just being polite to most normal people.

Ben also writes “This sounds much like the behaviour that you are putting forward as normal social behaviour of Asian-American women – the problem is, it’s only normal if you are an adolescent. ……The more you write, the more it seems that the charge of social retardedness could be equally applied to both parties on this date.”

It’s so hot when a guy calls a girl socially retarded! Wait… is Ben an AM? Wait…is he trying to date AF’s who he thinks are socially retarded in general? oh, is that the strategy? – Ben is trying to be socially retarded so he can be compatible to people who he *thinks* are socially retarded. If so, Ben deserves an Oscar! Get your name on that Hollywood walk of fame brother!

However, I must admit I don’t know exactly how my friend acted or responded on the date as I wasn’t a fly on the wall. But at the end of the day, hypothetically, does it really matter for the point being raised? Let’s say she acted just how I described. If Mr. Downer raises the issue of AM dating perils on date #1 and his date does NOT respond in either one of 2 ways 1) OMG! I totally agree! or 2) OMG! I never saw it that way – tell me more!, then Mr. Downer needs to move onto another subject.
If his date responded with #2, and Mr. Downer wanted a second date, he should still move onto another subject, by way of this, “Let’s talk about it next time! I don’t want to bore you with how hard it is for AM’s to snag a date with AF’s b/c I’m on a date with a lovely AF! I must have done something right!”

@Siggy – sorry, flames have been extinguished. King and ES had funnier responses! =)

@Raquel.. awwww, thanks. (most) of you guys are awesome and bring up good viewpoints. But it’s scary when I read some responses that seem infused with such angst and hate. Do guys really think like this? Some ppl just need to learn to bust a nut and chillax.
Siggy does a good example – it’s when ppl say Fake it till you Make it! ; ) Eventually, he will make it.
But for some others….. they will be sucked into the abyss of online blogs and theories and lose all contact with actual human life. =(

“Siggy does a good example – it’s when ppl say Fake it till you Make it! ; ) Eventually, he will make it.”

Haha! I think if Siggy was ever going to fulfill his Asian fetish, he would have done so long ago. It’s been… what??? Like… seven or eight years of yellow fever… way before I ever stumbled onto the The Fighting 44s, (where he was banned for inappropriate stalking of Jade Dragon, as I recall) and he’s still talking about kissing Asian girls with his shirt off! Lol!

I discovered the guy code long ago – the guys who have girlfriends, or are going on dates regularly rarely come to a blog (or a group of friends) to report about their love life. If they are interacting with women to their satisfaction, there really is no need to waste time ‘chatting’ about it. It’s always the guys who are not getting any action who feel the need to proclaim what they would do, or give false accounts of what they have done. These fantasy accounts usually sound either like really bad romance novels, porno scripts, or often an insane mix of the two. Women seem to socialize differently on this point, and will talk more easily with trusted friends about their romantic lives. But men who have REAL romantic lives rarely talk to each other about them.

Ask any married man when was the last time he had a good little chat with his best friend about how GREAT his romantic life is. The only time guys talk about it (among one another) is when there is a problem.

@King What are talking about? I never stalked anyone on the F44s. I just got into a disagreement with Mao Girl and others. You never saw me except when I posted my shirtless picture on the Fighting 44s.
Besides all that, I already hugged and kissed a Chinese girl wearing shorts.
I would never date anyone on a messageboard on post anyway.
Even if I never found an Asian woman, I can always return back to my own race.
I make young girls giggle with excitement and old women blush.
So, I’m already kind of dating a Hispanic woman. I’m just not committing.
Are you still collecting National Enquire magazines of Casey Anthony and celebrities.
I’m more worried about Europe than my lovelife. We don’t need any more fascism again.

“@King What are talking about? I never stalked anyone on the F44s. I just got into a disagreement with Mao Girl and others. You never saw me except when I posted my shirtless picture on the Fighting 44s.”

Actors do not represent the average person! Many guys became actors to get laid, and most of them do. It’s part of the business. This being said, you are using a poor example to counteract what is reality. How ironic when you accuse me of watching too much tv, when you are using actors/entertainers to represent the rest of us!

@Ben:“For Asian guys stuck on Asian women…”
Please, do you think that the answer to the interracial dating disparity is to make the gap wider? The disconnect between males and females among the AA non-community hasn’t been addressed in any productive manner.

In regards to your response to Moro regarding Asian men and the interracial dating disparity. I found this on the asiafinest.com website regarding the interracial dating issue surrounding Asian guys. This dude said it really well!

I have been asked many, many times by many different non-Asian men why they had seen so few Asian men dating non-Asian women (i.e., they asked the wrong question; they should have asked why so few non-Asian women date Asian men.) I have never been able to answer them because I do not know the answer. However, at this point of my life, I am no longer bothered by it (not too much anyway.)

The symptom is clearly there, but no one really knows what is the root of the problem. Racism? Discrimination? Lack of attractiveness? Media influence? Cultural factors? I’ve read and heard all sorts of excuses and rebuffs. I even have my own theory about that (i.e., it is really simple: white [and latin] women don’t date Asian men, but they don’t admit it or give us other excuses. White men, Hollywood or the media can’t really control who or what white women want to date. [White men can’t even stop white women from dating black men. What makes you think white men can stop white women from dating Asian men if white women really want to?] White men and the media just sorta add fuel to the fire.) But, really, no one knows why.

“The symptom is clearly there, but no one really knows what is the root of the problem. Racism? Discrimination? Lack of attractiveness? Media influence? Cultural factors? I’ve read and heard all sorts of excuses and rebuffs. I even have my own theory about that (i.e., it is really simple: white [and latin] women don’t date Asian men, but they don’t admit it or give us other excuses.”

Chr.. What your poster was saying are like a fraction that must be reduced to it’s simplest form. Racism, and discrimination? Media, and cultural factors? All of this really comes down to one root word, “DIFFERENCES,” and how one responds to them. All humans are both different, and the same, on many levels. Racism is about opening ones eyes only to the differences and ignoring the many similarities.

In the case of Asian men and White women, it’s not that Asian men are more DIFFERENT than other “races.” If that were so, then we would likely see the same pattern with Asian women (who come from the same genetics and the same culture). The problem is social—Asian men are not “in style” with most White women, at this point in time. The reasons for this are purely based on transitory social/cultural perceptions. Conversely Asian women however, are “trending” with a noticeable segment of White men—again, based on purely social perceptions.

But the reality is that styles and trends do not last, because they are temporary preferences, based on mass false perceptions. It happens with hairstyles, with fashion, music, art, and products. At the time, it always seems that these things are so perfect, so attractive, so important, and necessary! But most of them rise to prominence and then return to their previous levels of relative obscurity. This is what I believe will happen with the WM/AF new world utopian dream. Once people are together in large enough numbers, and for a long enough time, you begin to realize that color and culture do not make partners better people, and in the end, that’s all that will really matter. These “styles” are short lived, when you take the long view.

The biggest dating disparity is Asian and black. Plenty of black males are obsessed with Asian women and pursue them. Why is it rarely the case of Asian males pursuing black females? Why?

And why is that never an issue? I read all sorts of obsessions about the White women, she is the Queen no doubt, especially for black males. But many Asian males share this worship. She is a kind of Ultimate Dating Prize.

Rarely do Asian males obsess over black females or the Asian-black dating disparity.

CHR:
I bring up the celeb cause that’s all I can find that’s a public image that I can post a link to. You say you don’t see hot WFs with AMs, I think you don’t go out enough. Around here where I am, an AM / WF partnership is not as rare as you may think. I see those couples from time to time. I think a lot of it has to do with AMs most of them don’t want to date WFs and rather be with an AF for the most part. But you got a select group of PUAs, blog posters who want to vent so the number of those seem bigger than reality. And those PUAs treat WFs like they are the Ferraris of women when they are not. And in terms of AFCC, it’s not just females in the industry who partner w whites. Asian males also partner with whites, especially gay Asian males who no one wants to talk about. It’s sort of an Industry standard I guess. I have no problem with AF dating WM just because I feel if I choose, to I can also date a WF. Why should I be angry at someone’s choice? And, I agree with the last poster. No one brings up AMs not dating BFs. It’s always an Asian guy complaining about how WFs aren’t giving him any love. All these guys I’ve notice who complain, how many of them actually go out daily, work on themselves, looks, etc and have the guts to ask one of these females out? I’m not talking about tricky PUA but something that takes time to do. No one wants to put the investment in. They’d rather take a bootcamp and try to solve the problem in a few days. Chr: all you do is complain yet you go no solution.

As a Black guy, I have to say, that the Asian obsession is still fairly low among Black males. I’m not saying that it’s non-existent, but it’s I think you’ll find Black guys who are not nearly anything like you’d find with Whites. I think that there are a lot of Black guys who would include Asian women among their potential dating choices, but know very few who are obsessed with Asian women exclusively. Hwever, that does mean that a reasonable sampling of Asian women will e approached by Black guys, so your question still makes sense.

Actually I know more BMs who are willing to date an AF over dating a WF. How many males of any race really that discriminatory against sleeping with WFs or AFs. Not sure how many AFs are willing to date a BM. Quoting that one blog which talks about what white people like, An Asian daughter bringing home a BM would give her grandmother a heart attack. I believe there is some truth to that. There are probably a lot more Asian Parents percentagwise more racist against their children dating black people than there are whites. Everyone has to remember, Asians are still a fairly new minority in this country compared to others. A lot are immigrants or 1st generation. It will take years before they accept the other minorities. Right now, from what I’ve seen, Asian parents will only accept White or Asians as possible mates. I have this one friend who told me how his parents wanted him to marry a Korean woman. As years went by and him not finding a woman, their standards went to White or Korean, Chinese or Japanese, then I’m sure when he hits 40, they will be happy to see him with someone of any skin color. It just depends I guess.

As a Black guy, I have to say, that the Asian obsession is still fairly low among Black males. I’m not saying that it’s non-existent, but it’s I think you’ll find Black guys who are not nearly anything like you’d find with Whites.

But I’m talking about the disparity between black male interest in Asian women and Asian male interest in black females.

Reread it, still found it far too convoluted to bring up a few points. Also your mixing of the points makes it only harder. Like arguing about Asian women being immature and why can’t a person talk about Asian issues if one is willing.

Seperately, I can see your point of doubting the story as exagerrated is reasonable. It is worth speculating the implications. Cwag has a point there. But it doesn’t mean what she claims isn’t true or not worth speculating. I’m willing to think on her terms too as many Asian men are willing to shoot themselves in the foot. It’s call bad game and I can see him do that rather than the mere subject made her go into rejection mode.

That said, what’s with apologizing and sympathizing to Linda here. Don’t just lump me because I found what he said as asanine. No one else is apologizing for others in other flame wars. There’s no need for this one either.

“All these guys I’ve notice who complain, how many of them actually go out daily, work on themselves, looks, etc and have the guts to ask one of these females out? I’m not talking about tricky PUA but something that takes time to do. No one wants to put the investment in. They’d rather take a bootcamp and try to solve the problem in a few days. Chr: all you do is complain yet you go no solution”.

The Columbia Dating experiment revealed that Asian men were seen as the least attractive. I’ve been saying this all along. Women are into looks just like men. Let’s not talk about how Asian men are popular with WFs. We know some of those guys out there exist. But overall, AMs as a whole are not cool with WFs.

PUA is a hit or miss thing depending on the guy. I don’t think for a second that an old geezer past his prime, or an ugly fart can score an attractive young woman using some canned PUA lines. But that’s what they want you to believe.

Chr, you seem very familiar with the… Columbia University speed dating experiment. Could you explain to me how they determined the attractiveness of Asian male looks? Did they have like a column where female attendees could rate the guy opposite them in terms of looks?

“That said, what’s with apologizing and sympathizing to Linda here. Don’t just lump me because I found what he said as asanine. No one else is apologizing for others in other flame wars. There’s no need for this one either.”

Lol, I did not apologize to Linda. I THANKED her. 😀

I also included your name only to show that I am in agreement with your points and others. Nothing else was implied. :p

I think Chr.. is referring to that study where an AM has to make $24k more vs. a WM to have equal response rate from AF? (I first learned of it right here and here—it’s what brought me to bigWOWO.com!) True, it doesn’t explicitly say anything about AM’s looks, but it really is telling that AF are the only group that have a preference of something else other than their own. The simple argument is this: it’s very natural to be attracted to your own race, and be a little racist against everyone else. The question is, how did this powerful tendency get erased for this one group, AF? Even from a more “positive” viewpoint: If the ideal world is colorblind, then, why is it that only AF have “overcome” this sooner? Why isn’t everyone else catching up?

So we have to conclude something is up (besides something in Siggy’s pants when he sees that statistic! I really couldn’t help myself that time!). This is more than just anecdotal evidence, and I think Moroboshi has quite an unusual group of friends or is in denial… My anecdotal evidence really says otherwise, from the two UC schools I’ve attended for undergrad and grad school (the population is is about 35% Asian). Can’t give you hard numbers, since I’m not so obsessed about the IR disparity that I go around actually tabulating, but yes, the AF/WM pairing has a major presence. Probably not the majority, but still, it’s there. Trends in the UC would be quite indicative of the times, since college is where dating really hits it big. But what do I know? It’s only anecdotal, riiiight?

Anyway, enough rehashing… but solutions… we have to recognize that it really is going to take effort on all sides, and the blame really is distributed. Chr.. brings up our perceived inferiority, but I don’t think he means to say we actually ARE, or we should accept our lot in life, that we are severely limited in our dating options (that just sounds so… HBD!). What I’ve taken from his posts is an emphasis that a good share of the blame lies with the society around us. Akrypti calls out to the fellow AF and shows blame lies with them too. Linda gave us some frustrated AF perspective, telling us to get out there and date, and fail, and learn. Some of us AM really could use the training and self-improvement, and so, indeed, some blame lies with us, too. But this “distributed blame” means that self-improvement (for both genders) is necessary, but not sufficient. To fix the societal problem, we have to return to the topic: visibility and representin’ the real us in the media. It will take, as bWW said in the HBD thread, lots of hard work and imagination. But we gotta do it, and change doesn’t come from slavishly following what makes the best business sense.

Cdawg: I’m not in denial. All I ever said was most AMs I know either are married or have a girlfriend. What I didn’t say is they are all with supermodels. I don’t know many AMs who have not dated anyone in their 30’s – 40’s etc like some of these statistics I’ve seen being brought up. I believe these people exist but they are a minority, not the majority like some people, especially PUA gurus like to point out. Kind of funny how I see how some gurus like to celebrate this fact. For a group of people that claim they want to help people, it’s pretty damn strange. To me PUA is all miss. None of these guys gurus or students at least in their testimonials ever end up marrying or getting into a relationship. Heck, I don’t even see many of them getting laid. If I was looking to get into a bootcamp, I would at least question that.

I think most people without girlfriends or wives are the people who are a little too picky and are trying to obtain something out of their means. Some of the people who I know aren’t with anyone are the pickiest people I know. They want looks, job future, age and won’t settle for any less. That’s pretty hard to find for anyone.

Chr keeps bringing up white females and them thinking AMs are the least attractive people in the world. I just don’t get that at all why that would even be a factor in life. I guess inadvertently, that may be a racist statement, is he insinuating all Asian males look alike?

Anyway, the old cliche, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There could be 10,000 people thinking you’re not attractive. But if there are a 100 people that think you are, you only need 1 of them.

And I don’t know who does speed dating consistently. The only person I know who has is in his 50’s and wanted to date someone 20 years younger. Not sure that’s the majority of the population.

“Anyway, the old cliche, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There could be 10,000 people thinking you’re not attractive. But if there are a 100 people that think you are, you only need 1 of them.”

Bingo. Anyhow, I think some people like to use this as a crutch for their own dating inadequacies. You really think a non-Asian woman would say that an Asian guy is not attractive JUST BECAUSE he is Asian? I know that Russell Wong had a lot of white and black female fans when he had his show on WB. Producers even mentioned getting a lot of letters addressing that fact. He is half-white, but looks pretty Chinese.

I know he’s a celeb but more AMs look like him than Russell Wong, right?

I think one thing that people complaining haven’t talked about is what type of women do they expect to obtain? Looking at PUAs it looks like their type is 23-26 year old, wearing lots of makeup, tight clothing white girl.

Definitely with you there, Moro, about PUA… they’re the idiots who try to set the standard that anyone who dates less than an 8 on a 1-10 scale (as if there were only one scale one could measure on, but that’s another can of worms) is a loser. It celebrates intolerance for both genders, which is exactly the opposite of what we need. Asian PUA is a big step backward and just further confuses our goals. Jstele, I certainly have heard people use exactly being Asian as a rejection (even from AF themselves… which is part of the problem we’re trying to address here!). They won’t admit it directly to the rejected person, because it isn’t PC, but you can see it in the jokes they crack behind their back. True, you should just move on and find someone who does find you attractive (very logical—why bother trying to win over those who actively disdain you?), but what I’m saying is that once that happens, we’re not doing the community any favors by saying “Ahhh, I turned out OK, so there is no problem!” … there’s still further work to be done for our empowerment. bWW is leading by example, he’s married, after all…

Take a look at the comments and you’ll have you’re answer. You’ll find they go straight back onto how way more Asian girls date white guys than vice-versa, the causes why which have been discussed to death, studies proving a theory or another and so on. It’s cause the majority of Asian guys if they had the opportunity to inter-racially date would want a white woman, obviously its hypocritical when many claim that it is Asian females who white worship.

Simply put even if the dating disparity increases with the number of black men with Asian women continuing to expand like it has been doing the past few years you will rarely see Asian guys complain as compared to white guys and Asian girl couples.

Environments have effects on individuals. People are attracted to people they grew up with, and are also influenced by what others tell them is beautiful. So when you talk about how Asian men in America would like to be with white women, it’s not all about some kind of golden white pussy worship.

I could count on one hand AF/?M (where ? is anything other than W or A) relationships there were at the UCs I attended, about the same number as AM/WF, and no AM/?F. So I don’t know if it is necessarily racist behavior of AM. I myself have found myself attracted to. But it was no less difficult dating them. It got better, but only because I’ve learned over the years. I don’t worship WF, but interestingly enough, my WF ex was thoroughly convinced that I did, and read wrong intentions into everything I did. Not to generalize too much (it’s a sample size of 1, LOL), but it is conceivable that the perception that “AM worship WF” can affect your relationship negatively, even if you’re doing things right.

People are attracted to people they grew up with, and are also influenced by what others tell them is beautiful.

So should the same pertain to Asian women as well? Can we really get mad at them for this?

Also, I agree, the guys complaining about the interracial disparity mostly are envious they can’t do that themselves instead of wanting to date Asian women.

I think it’s rather shallow to want to date someone based on their skin color. So does the self hatred also come from the environment they grew up in? ‘ll tell any Asian guy living here. The best chance you have being with someone is going to be with an Asian Woman. Not saying Asian guys can’t score with WFs. I know many who have but I also know some who are holding out till they find the perfect white girl and those guys more times than not are lonely and seek out PUAs.

Funniest thing I read is when Byron pointed out how similar the type of women APB takes pictures with to members of the band Poison. LOL!

Looks like we’ve solved the AF/WM conundrum they are just trying to prevent population decline.

“I think it’s rather shallow to want to date someone based on their skin color. So does the self hatred also come from the environment they grew up in? ‘ll tell any Asian guy living here. The best chance you have being with someone is going to be with an Asian Woman. Not saying Asian guys can’t score with WFs.”

Any man of any race can score with any race of woman, the main thing that annoys guys is that with whites they usually have to drop to a mediocre standard as those are the white girls who’ll date them. Whereas With Asian girls they could get better quality (more attractive, normative personality etc)

“Any man of any race can score with any race of woman, the main thing that annoys guys is that with whites they usually have to drop to a mediocre standard as those are the white girls who’ll date them. Whereas With Asian girls they could get better quality (more attractive, normative personality etc)”

The Asian IR Dating Disparity is not soley the result of White racism. I think it has very little do with it.

We should stop blaming the media and White oppression for AMs lack of dating opportunities with WFs. We need to take a look of ourselves and ponder if physical attributes have to do a lot with it, and us wanting to date those hot supermodel/playboy variety chicks, resulting to an almost next to impossible chance.

Many AFs have been brainwashed by their parents to think of dating/marrying WMs as way to get their feet into the door of riches and status. Ironically, percentage wise speaking, AMs have better credentials and higher incomes.

I grew up in a public housing complex mostly inhabited by Blacks and Latinos. There were a few Asian families living there as well. Most of their daughters never dated an Asian, Black or Latino guy from the neighborhood. They always brought home a WM from elsewhere to showoff to their parents and arouse suspicion amongst the minority groups.

“I grew up in a public housing complex mostly inhabited by Blacks and Latinos. There were a few Asian families living there as well. Most of their daughters never dated an Asian, Black or Latino guy from the neighborhood. They always brought home a WM from elsewhere to showoff to their parents and arouse suspicion amongst the minority groups.”

I think this could have more with the fact few white guys would ever be dating a black or Latina woman from a public housing complex. This could skew the numbers.

“I think this could have more with the fact few white guys would ever be dating a black or Latina woman from a public housing complex. This could skew the numbers”.

Those AFs go out of their way to seek WMs exclusively. Now why would a WM date an AF from a public housing complex should be your question.

There are many attractive Black and Latin women who live in the housing projects and many get to interact with WMs in one way or the other. Remember women ultimately decide whom they want to have a relationship with.

Americans brand Middle Eastern Men as al-Qaida Osama Bin Laden types, yet I’ve met many Middle Eastern guys who are in relationships with White women. The same could be said of Black guys and how they are portrayed in the media as ghetto thugs, yet that doesn’t stop White women from finding them attractive. Just because AMs are portrayed as asexual martial artists or geeks on film shouldn’t stop any women from liking an AM in real life.

@King Those two pictures you linked. I hope you aren’t making the same argument that groups like “Big Beautiful Women” makes saying how looks are entirely malleable and the solution is not for BBW to lose weight and become healthy but for people who take care of themselves to change their “standards.”

I know you are arguing about how much the media and pop culture influence Asian American Males in the perception of us and subsequently how easy or hard for women to find us attractive, but using the same argument as people like BBW is not one of them.

I bring this up because people use pictures like that as somehow justify being obese. That problem likes with fit people rather than obese people. I cannot stand for that. I know you are arguing about cultural perceptions shaping how people react to us, but we can’t use arguments like the two pictures to back it (since I’m already alluding to it hard, yes, this does mean I’m making a statement that there is some universality in how people are attracted to each other – Google golden face ratio).

The thing is, attraction (for women with a much greater degree, but less for men) other factors besides looks goes in. Like status including cultural perception that is shaped by media. That means Mass Preferences are shaped by culture (and our results feedback loops back to culture), but it doesn’t mean we can use those two pictures, which some have tried to use that to argue that our attraction a girl who is not obese is merely our upraising, as a way to argue that point.

Out of all my Asian Males I know, this is the first time where I’ve heard someone drive the point of AMs being unattractive and not wanted. It’s not healthy. I can’t imagine anyone would think that. I mean, I’ve seen people say certain races aren’t attractive but it’s not like it’s always directed at the AM.

I guess CHR, you’re the flip side of Asian PUA Gurus. Asian PUAs believe we are attractive. We just need the right tools ONLY they can provide to guide us and pay them a hefty amount of $$$ for it.

I’m still not getting a point to this. AMs are unattractive to the world. What’s next? Went hiking today. Saw many Asian couples walking together. Where’s the conspiracy?

How do we know CHR, you aren’t a WM trying to bring us down with those statements so you can have all the women to yourself? How’s that for conspiracy. 😉

When I saw those two pictures I didn’t even see the “BBW” women angle. I saw the historical variance in perception of beauty instead.

The universal standards of beauty you alluded to is in my opinion, nothing more than media churn for the purpose of supporting the global WHITE advertising and PR companies in what they hoped would be a boom in the industry.

The way it would work is that these modelling companies with billions of dollars behind them would snap up women who conform to these golden universal rules and set a new tier of exclusive for modelling contracts around the world. Modelling agencies charge advertising and PR agencies, these companies can go on to milk other companies of their money, preferably in places like Asia, India and Africa where the light of the white man does not shine brightly. ROFL

The universal rules on beauty are meant to line pockets. It’s not really the groundbreaking discovery some nerds make it out to be.

The universal standards of beauty you alluded to is in my opinion, nothing more than media churn for the purpose of supporting the global WHITE advertising and PR companies in what they hoped would be a boom in the industry.

Unfortunately, I am not convinced the idea that beauty is universal is only a figment made by the modeling industry. I can see the modeling industry have an incentive in devaluing everyone via one way or another, but it doesn’t mean what we find attractive in the physical realm is purely the product of the modeling industry.

Even so, the idea of physical beauty (I suspect aesthetics too a-la Plato, but let’s keep this separate) does not have to mean yellow is uglier than white. Perhaps the model industry might promote that to make Asians buy their crap, but no study or even the subsequent articles poorly interpreting it ever claim that to my knowledge. Fashion section of the newspaper maybe the one that write about it to the masses (and, to be fair, they commonly make lots of misinterpretations), but I don’t see how it invalidates the finding the studies when it find something like a pretty face (one for example is from Blavatnik School of Computer Science in Israel) or body shape (Harvard University) seems to cross cultures and backgrounds. Unless you can show universities studies are somehow is in on it or some other way the researchers are wrong or I’m somehow missing something, I must continue to push forward that there is some commonality of physical (and aesthetic) beauty that cross cultures and time.

So again, there is a variance – ala “beauty is the eye of the beholder” where perfect to one is only pretty to another, but it doesn’t mean ugly can be beautiful.

Oh, and btw, the modeling industry is perverse with their own trends and ideas. A few fashion sections give attention to the studies once in a while, but they follow it. Of course, if they go too far away from it, they get a backlash (and I think they are starting to trigger one as they push for anorexic sticks), but the model picture does not epitome beauty. Just because there some commonality of traits, doesn’t mean people can’t be convinced to a certain point to think something is pretty or perfect when it is not really (just if you stray too far or give it enough time, something will break).

Works of art and depictions of beauty from antiquity presents us with a conundrum that these university studies have trouble addressing: how is it that in the past for a very long period of time, and in many cultures, corpulence in women was seen as beautiful and representative of fertility?

The picture King posted isn’t the only example, I’ve had a look at various pictorial depictions of beauties in Imperial China, Japan, medieval Europe etc. Most of the beauties there were what would be calle fat today.

People may have changed but people don’t change that much. If the universal standard is some kind of truism today and speaks of mankind’s innate and instinctual perception of beauty, how was this not true a mere thousand years ago? One thousand years is a drop in the teacup of human evolution.

“@King Those two pictures you linked. I hope you aren’t making the same argument that groups like “Big Beautiful Women” makes saying how looks are entirely malleable and the solution is not for BBW to lose weight and become healthy but for people who take care of themselves to change their “standards.”

Well, the “Big Beautiful Women” issue is only tangential to the point I was making. The first link is to a painting by Peter Paul Rubens who painted the voluptuous female form as was popular in his day and location. That was the preferred look for the women in his world. To this day, the term “rubenesque” defines women of those particular proportions. The second link is a pic of Twiggy, a very trend-setting model of the late 1960s who similarly represented the popular look of her place and time.

The two images are two extreme ends of the spectrum. They were both popular, at a certain times, because they were collectively decided upon to be aesthetic ideals. The images were decided upon by artists, fashion designers, beauticians, and, of course, by men, but they were perpetuated by “media” in it’s many forms. That is how it works.

People can prefer widely different ideals of attractiveness, but they are almost always based on a social norm, and for better or worse, the social norm is based upon the influence of media.

In their study, it discusses variance of beauty with some discussion in basis in the innate while the variance of beauty, but none ventured into obesity. The one left out, the above, “The Three Graces” doesn’t shatter the notion that there a commonality for beauty. The idea of beauty varies, but none varies to the level of obesity.

The mention of other culture, the one I known about is the Tang Dynasty’s art depiction. I have to point out that the dynasties before and after have been more consistent. Also more slim art have been found from the same period. Most interestingly is poetry from the Tang Dynasty which doesn’t conform to the depictions you are talking about.

The idea that obesity, not full figured, is beautiful is an idea pushed by a modern culture where more and more of its members are fat. Instead of trying to make ourselves fitter again, the definition is being attempted to be redefined. King talks about how the modeling industry is trying to push a perverse sense of anorexia as beauty (and whiteness, but I’m not going to accuse of racism at an entire industry) as beauty. I have to point out in a country where 60% of the US is overweight or obese, there’s a push to try and redefine beauty as being obese.

In either push to either direction, going too far mean reaching a point where the mind will go “I don’t think this is really pretty.”

I have to mention that I think we are going off topic. I understand the original topic is how much pop culture and the media influences our collective attractiveness. So I’m not arguing anything about that at this point; as my issue is about people uses Renaissance art as a way to justify obesity. Just pointing out that the depiction of Renaissance art versus a picture of a model isn’t an example of popular culture’s influence on collective attractiveness. Popular culture affects our perception, not what physical looks look appealing – I link to think of it as the “coolness” factor – plays on our attractiveness.

I think media influence our attractiveness much more via status (how cool or not we are depicted). The media and upraising effect our views of beauty doesn’t vary that much. Definitely not to the amount that we can one day the majority of us can truly find obesity beautiful while slim is not. I think what you see with models is from their own trends, while it determines what is “fashionable” like shinny to the point of bones apparently, I suspect the majority of people and what they see as physically attractive will not change to skinny bones, but say “they are to skinny!” Which is what happening right now (though obese people are trying to use it say “See! People really wants is obese people!”).

They constantly say to not put girls on a pedestal yet their obsession with white girls is almost like a male version of a AFCC.

They constantly say schticks like “getting girls while being Asian… not despite being Asian”. Yet they turn around and perpetuate these ingrained stereotypes of AMs almost as a way to create insecurity which they can exploit.

While I do think PUA concepts are valid here and there and in very, very small doses, the aggregate concept is most definitely sketch.

They market to desperate and vulnerable people unfortunately. I don’t think by the bragging they really are in the business of wanting to help anyone. They hope there are people like CHR around who don’t think Asian males are attractive. Without that kind of thinking, where is their business? I don’t see a difference between what they do and those late informmercials promising riches to unsuspecting folks that were abundant in the nineties. Santo Gold? Tom Vu? Come to think of it, is APB the Tom Vu of today? How is what APB has on his site, parading “white” club women in his arm any different than Tom Vu having the informmercial showing footage with him and all those “white” bikini clad women on a yacht? It’s all the same to me.

“So I’m not arguing anything about that at this point; as my issue is about people uses Renaissance art as a way to justify obesity. Just pointing out that the depiction of Renaissance art versus a picture of a model isn’t an example of popular culture’s influence on collective attractiveness. “

Well, my point was certainly not to justify or “rebrand” obesity. Perhaps that is happening somewhere else on the internet these days, but it was not my intention to push that agenda here.

All I am saying is that what is “in style” changes–not only in regard to clothing, haircuts, and hair coloring—but even to body style and shape. Another example of this would be the early Kate Moss look (1990s)

My point is that different looks, that seem to be polar opposites, can come and go as the hot new thing even in a very short amount of time. Given that fact, the idea of looking at Asian men and “being honest” that maybe they are not that attractive is ludicrous. Define “attractive?” It can’t be everything, but there is a VERY wide scope of things that people find to be attractive. It is THE MEDIA who decides what is popular, cool, and sexy. And therefore, the biases of the media carry over into the day to day perceptions of how the public at large judges personal attractiveness.

First, the examples between the Marlyn look vs the girls above are not polar opposites. One think and possibly too sticky, the other is curvy, but none are fat. It is still within the range of variance. I’m willing to bet that if people are to rate how attractive those girls are by people from that time and people today, the votes would not changed.

then I will concede that how we judge what is beautiful is how society affects our minds rather than a universal concept.

Either way, again, there’s no need to argue on this. For the reason below:

Second, you are making a false extrapolation of looks of women to attractiveness of men. Our attractiveness is caused by multiple things. The media is affecting our attractiveness, but they are affecting us by affecting how people think of us, not how they immediately judge our looks. Attractiveness is more than looks. The media is not affecting people perception of our looks, it is affecting their perception of what kind of people we are.

So we are barely arguing on the same subject. For we are in alignment that Asian Men are being negatively affected by the media. But it not through looks part of the attractiveness (mostly at least).

I honestly don’t think so. I’ll based this arguments from two different directions:

1. Our largest complaints from the media is from lack of status (including top movie/tv stars, negative or no depiction of a heterosexual Asian male, and other stuff like that). Few complaints is they are denigrating our looks. That is assuming that actually mold what we see as attractive rather what we see as “cool.”

It seems in the realm of online dating, where computers force judgement by a couple of pictures and what a few sentences written, the way men and women look at looks are very different. There’s some holes here and there, but I think we can reasonably say the people on okcupid have some reflection on the population interact. Attractiveness and looks are not the same. From a women’s perspective, it seems they find most guys as nothing exciting. I argue that this show because what make them feel attraction is more than just looks; they still message guys even though the looks rating are low. Even if the media is affecting both somehow, the main way they affect us is perception of who we are. The damage of how they think of looks would be inconsequential anyways.

3. My final point is there have to be some universality to beauty as if there is not, it would indicate that with enough social persuasion, we can find anything attractive. This is not a strawman, I know it sounds a bit like it. I’m trying to say people like the unhealthy 300 pound woman picture above have never been in. There has to be a limit which mean some kind of universality, universality doesn’t mean curvy and more skinny cannot both be found attractive, but there are bounds. Like skinny to the point of bones is now getting a backlash no matter how much they try to push it. Same goes to the other direction, which they have tried too and failed.

——

I suspect that at the time she was popular it was because she portrayed really ditzy and sexually available (and thus exploitable) women.

Exploitable? That’s a very negative choice of words. I’m not one to take such a cynical thought that why a woman reach such fame is because the men only wanted to exploit her. There’s a lot of injustice out there, but I don’t see most people carry evil intentions or thoughts like exploiting Monroe.

I suspect her fame is like Elvis. She died at the peak of her popularity and did little in tarnishing herself (unlike today’s celebrities). Death seems to have a way to amplify fame.

Maybe you are looking at this differently than I am. To me, when we talk about Asian male looks being denigrated, I would reach back to World War II for context. This is what Hideki Tojo (a general of the Imperial Japanese Army) actually looked like. But this is how he was portrayed to the American public during the war.

I think you get the picture. Now that was the beginning of a very long tradition of looking and thinking about Asian men and women in a completely different light that has continued even to this day.

Now, perhaps you think that’s all just in the past and it has no bearing now. If so, it probably won’t do me a lot of good arguing with you about it. Just consider the possibility that media actually HAS been used to denigrate the Asian male image, and things like the “little penis rumor” are part of that attack on Asian male physical characteristics AS WELL AS on what kind of people you are.

Marilyn’s rise to stardom did coincide with the strong rise of the prostitution and starlets for hire rings still prevalent and all pervasive today. This is a model followed by EVERY country with a western style film industry. Which is every country. In addition, my observations of the artefacts left over from the period leads me to believe that there was still a very strong current of conservatism in American society at the time, which encouraged underground prostitution while decrying it above ground, which spread misinformation and taboo regarding female sexuality, and that these films and movies served as “escape valves” for the male psyche. Marilyn’s roles fits stereotypes and fantasies.

I don’t cast any aspersions on Marilyn. I blame shitty screenwriters and producers and the system they thrived in.

Also I don’t think it was mentioned in the OKCupid article, but really, women will only message or respond to you on these online sites if they think they can hold on to you or if you represent some kind of glamour she wants to participate in.

So those pictures, faceshots of guys really mean nothing.

When women check out your facebook, online profiles etc what they look for in pictures is what you do, who you hang out with, etc. Subtle cues are looked at also such as how you usually dress, your status and body language in these photos, how other people treat you.

These observations truly are more important to a chick than a face shot.

@ ES – thanks for sharing the link! sadly….Mike is not the only guy in the world that does things like this! This email has brought back several memories of several guys in my past! ha ha ha….. I’ve even had letters mailed to me via the old fashion snail mail saying as much.
People may be “intelligent” but they can still be an idiot.

Great link ES. Obviously, this guy was taking lessons from PUA who look constantly are looking from hints from a woman ie playing w her hair. Just goes to show all that is fake and there are no absolutes. PUA = FAIL!

I blame both. It takes a certain someone to want to seek out PUA gurus. They have a self entitlement issue about deserving to get the most beautiful women in the world. As mentioned before by King, they see themselves as nice guys but are not since they are willing to lie, cheat and sometimes steal to get a woman.

The Gurus are flat out liars. They over exaggerate their accomplishments. Their bottom line is making $. No such thing of wanting to help anyone.

Luckily, it’s such a small group of people, it won’t have much an effect on society at all and this way to do things will disappear eventually. Many leave the community daily. Only a matter of time when the community is gone.

What this bill means is that if lets say I found an article in my local newspaper and scan it to post on my blog, along with corresponding commentary of my own, my blog provider immediately becomes liable for “copyright infringement” because they don’t have the explicit permission from that news provider to host that scanned article. My blog provider is vulnerable to a variety of sanctions such as being DNS blocked, being cut off from paypal and credit card companies, etc, unless they take immediate steps to remove my article and do something to me as a deterrent.

The issue is not how I am using that news article. The issue is if I have PERMISSION from that news provider.

I could post links instead of scanned copies, but what if the links go to a 404 error? What if you’re required to buy membership in order to see that article?

SOPA brands itself as a protector of intellectual property for example for well known names in music and film, and they say that online piracy causes billions of dollars of losses in uncollected revenue.

What it REALLY is about is CONTROL. They want to control what you see and the way you see at all costs, not withstanding the consequences.

If this Bill goes unopposed, don’t be surprised to find out that you have to pay record companies for the right to cover a song on Youtube.

That there is no widespread, public knowledge about the implications of this Bill is also what has confirmed in my mind that Occupy Wall Street is just a lousy stunt engineered by Democrats to set up a partisan atmosphere for the next elections.

They talk about being 99% but they then go on to blockade working class areas like fucking ports. These protests are just symbolic nuisances. The people participating in them are of a low quality.

The movement will fizzle out to NOTHING after the elections.

If these guys really mean business they would be MARCHING TO CONGRESS right now to take a stand against this SOPA bill.

But I guess they never thought about it because the same sources that fed them ideas about “taxing the rich” neglected to tell them about this.

^ Democrats and Republican senators both have been bought out by powerful industry lobbies to push this Bill to be made Law.

You can’t rely on industry counter lobbies to decide on something as important to the future as this. When lawyers get together they’ll start discussing minutae and the whole thing will hang on how many senators each faction can get on their side.

One march on Congress and this Bill will be defeated, at least until next time.