God had the plan for the sacrifice of his son, but if man had not sinned it would have not been carried out. He knew the mind of men and provided for every possibility. It was still man's choice that drove the consequence of each covenant, whether for good or for evil.

If that is what you think then you rate the knowledge of God lower than I do.There are no IFs for God. He knew Adam and Eve who sin before they were created. He knows every choice mankind will make from before creation. He even knows I would type this post before I was born.But you make it sound as if Father didn't really know for sure men would sin and because of that He added a backup plan called "Jesus". Man sinning was no more that a good guess. By your defenition God is very smart but not all knowing.?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

God had the plan for the sacrifice of his son, but if man had not sinned it would have not been carried out. He knew the mind of men and provided for every possibility. It was still man's choice that drove the consequence of each covenant, whether for good or for evil.

If that is what you think then you rate the knowledge of God lower than I do.There are no IFs for God. He knew Adam and Eve who sin before they were created. He knows every choice mankind will make from before creation. He even knows I would type this post before I was born.But you make it sound as if Father didn't really know for sure men would sin and because of that He added a backup plan called "Jesus". Man sinning was no more that a good guess. By your defenition God is very smart but not all knowing.?

And THAT is where you are very wrong.

There are many events which transpired, in the scriptures, which never entered the mind of God, [Jer 19:5] They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: [Jer 32:35] And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind that they should do this abomination to cause Judah to sin.

And, if God foreknew everything, why did he continually repent of his intentions toward his people?

Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

GOD WILL, AND DOES REPENT1. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

2. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

3. Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

4. Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

5. Deut 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

6. Jdgs 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

7. 1 Sam 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

8. 1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

9. 2 Sam 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

10. 1 Chron 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

12. Psalm 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

13. Psalm 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

14. Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

15. Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

16. Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

17. Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

18. Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

19. Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

20. Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

21. Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

22. Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

23. Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

24. Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God is not a man that he should repent, but as God, he repents when men change to do his will.

So your answer is that God wasn't able to predict His creation would become corrupted?And while God said His cousel would stand a short chat with a man of His creation and He changes His mind?

As for the verses maybe it's also how they are understood.For example when I read "neither came it into my mind" I don't read it as I forgot about that or something similar.God said He didn't command it AND He didn't even concider (came to mind) to command it.Or it's simply against His personality to "burn their sons".

KJVIsa 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers. Far from it. But I know one thing. Scriptures do not contradict.So when presented a verse that doesn't fit with your overall understanding of the Bible you can't just 'undo' it by quoting other verses. ALL verses should align. So that's why I like to start with the simple a clear understandings.God knows everything so never is/was/will be taken by suprise by anything/anyone.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

So your answer is that God wasn't able to predict His creation would become corrupted?And while God said His cousel would stand a short chat with a man of His creation and He changes His mind?

As for the verses maybe it's also how they are understood.For example when I read "neither came it into my mind" I don't read it as I forgot about that or something similar.God said He didn't command it AND He didn't even concider (came to mind) to command it.Or it's simply against His personality to "burn their sons".

KJVIsa 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers. Far from it. But I know one thing. Scriptures do not contradict.So when presented a verse that doesn't fit with your overall understanding of the Bible you can't just 'undo' it by quoting other verses. ALL verses should align. So that's why I like to start with the simple a clear understandings.God knows everything so never is/was/will be taken by suprise by anything/anyone.

Makes sense to me. I wanted another opinion besides my own. Doesn't settle it either way but what you say makes sense. I think there may be another alternative to understanding I haven't seen yet.

But I do think "repent" is the right word because it is the same language used for men who change and turn form one thing to another.

Anyway, God loves us despite our ignorance. He just doesn't want us to grow proud in it.

But I do think "repent" is the right word because it is the same language used for men who change and turn form one thing to another.

I can't say for sure from your words so I just ask: Is that repenting an act of man according to your understanding?I once would have said: yes.

But when I read verses like:KJVJoh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

RepentAction of Father. Not of man.=> Drag seems to be a more correct translation for draw. To me that means Father uses great force we can't resist. He isn't asking, begging, hoping, concidering or suggesting. He's using His powers. And I personally think even the worst sinner is vastly overpowered then. Ask Paul/Saul

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

that was good WW ,we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast

Only 60? That dim? Maybe you can shine on me a for a while Mrs Floodlight I'm getting bored in utter darkness

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

forgiveness is of the very divine nature of God , we are to learn what good and evil is

Yup

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again. Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.1 Corinthians 13:8 The love doth never fail.Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.Lamentations 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on usMalachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

Plus of course my 3 favorites in my signature.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

that was good WW ,we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast

Only 60? That dim? Maybe you can shine on me a for a while Mrs Floodlight I'm getting bored in utter darkness

Bro I was complimenting you , er im a 4 watter at least ! hey I got them 4 watts sconces in my bedroom they work , beats tripping and stubbing your toe in the dark !

I was concidering the 30 fold and sixty fold and 100 fold of them

Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive [it], and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. didnt think you would say 100 % yet eh ? hee hee ..

that was good WW ,we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast

Only 60? That dim? Maybe you can shine on me a for a while Mrs Floodlight I'm getting bored in utter darkness

Bro I was complimenting you ,

I know Rosey. Just toying a bit with you

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er im a 4 giga watter at least !

Sure thing!

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hey I got them 4 watts sconces in my bedroom they work , beats tripping

That's my advantage. I've fallen so deep I can't even trip anymore. For now I'm enjoying the quiet and waiting for a strong hand to pull me out

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

hey I got them 4 watts sconces in my bedroom they work , beats trippingThat's my advantage. I've fallen so deep I can't even trip anymore. For now I'm enjoying the quiet and waiting for a strong hand to pull me out

Bro the Lord is our hand in need and helping us all out of the darkness and we Praise Him for that

But I do think "repent" is the right word because it is the same language used for men who change and turn form one thing to another.

I can't say for sure from your words so I just ask: Is that repenting an act of man according to your understanding?

Well, unless it is God saying "hold still while I make you repent." But then that makes me wonder what was meant by "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve Jehovah." [Said by Joshua]

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But when I read verses like:KJVJoh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

RepentAction of Father. Not of man.=> Drag seems to be a more correct translation for draw. To me that means Father uses great force we can't resist. He isn't asking, begging, hoping, concidering or suggesting. He's using His powers. And I personally think even the worst sinner is vastly overpowered then. Ask Paul/Saul

So it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.

Theo Book

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

(Theo) Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.

We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.

(Legoman) Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself?

God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!

Why would you say a thing like that? "Whether I like it or not." I am TRYING to understand something here.

(Legoman)

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Hi Theo,

Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying. I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then. Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse?

The creation. "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

And where is this "glorious freedom of the children of God" "For freedom did Christ set us free." We are free IN CHRIST.

(logoman)

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Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission.

This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.

What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.

(logoman)

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That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it! God says He will do it and I believe He can. God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things. He can do it.

THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"

(logoman)

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In any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second. The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself. You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:

Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... Peace out...

Already been there. Only got more confused by all those translations, none of which are stamped "approved of God." As for Wittemore's "100 proofs" article, I debated that issue ten years ago. Still no response.

As for coming to the tentmaker site to tear down the doctrine, are you saying I should go on the CARM board to debate the issues? or get understanding on the issues? Where else would any honest person go but to the source? I WANT TO KNOW! I do not want your enemies guesses. And I do not trust your enemies assessments as to what you teach.

Hi Theo. I've enjoyed much of your last few posts. I have some info I'd like to share as a member, not a mod. I'm really not interested in debating, and (although some disagree with the fine distinction I make) debating is not encouraged on TM - discussion is - which is what I've seen you doing lately. If someone wants to discuss and really understand each others' thoughts and understandings, versus trying to "tear the other's POV down", then sometimes I'm in. But I just really believe I can't make anyone see things my way, and hopefully vice versa - that it's the Spirit of God that really teaches and leads us. I wrote this before I saw the last interchange with lego, so I'll just let it stand as is;

Hi Theo. You and Paul are having a good discussion, kudos. I don't want to interfere, but your last post(s) have prompted me to think about some things I'd like to share with you. I will ONLY share with you what I believe and understand from the scriptures and from what God has revealed to me both in my spirit and in the scriptures.

Briefly, and based on many scriptures which I won't take the time to go find :)

I will present a large outline/framework, within which there are MANY intricacies I admittedly have yet to understand and/or be reconciled for me.

I understand that God had Jesus prepared as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It wasn't Plan B because Plan A failed.

That He concluded all to disobedience, so that He would have mercy on all.

That there was an ultimate price to pay for all mankind's salvation, and Jesus paid it on the cross and when He walked out of that empty tomb.

That He calls and chooses, gives faith to believe on Him as Savior, each in his own order - some now, the rest later. That one must experience the spiritual birth from above, the new birth/born again to see the kingdom. Again, some now, the ecclesia/called out ones, the rest later - as the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings bring their treasures into it. ("Sirs what must I do to be saved?) That we "call on the name of the Lord", "believe on the Lord Jesus" as and when He gives each the faith to do so.

That though God ultimately directs our steps, and He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will, that there are consequences to our disobedience both in this life and in the next age. In this life, as we reap what we sow and miss out on the peace and joy of the Spiritual Kingdom, and don't experience/realize the comfort of the shelter of His wings. In the next age, as we stand before God and all our deeds (and legal standing with Him) are reviewed, judged, and then undergo corrective discipline.

I believe everyone that has anything in them that's not of God will be "tormented" (banismo) for an aion [time period, probably different lengths for different people/situations], sorrow, repentance, and renewal will then occur. I believe Ephesians 1:10 talks of everything being gathered together in Christ, things both above and on the earth. But anything not of God (built on sand, or is wood, hay, stubble) will be spiritually burned, "so that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord". Our God is a consuming Fire, and it will be painful to stand before Him unprepared. There will be a select company not hurt of the second death, but I personally figure I still have things in me that will need to destroyed in the Lake of Fire. I am personally still in process of clarifying/understanding especially this part, but I believe that will still be a different process for anyone saved by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the Spirit, than a total unbeliever. Also (few stripes/many stripes) that someone who never heard/had little to no light (or a baby, for instance) will have a very quick to immediate realization and conversion, as opposed to say Hitler, who may have nothing left of him except the spirit that came from God. Again, these things are what I understand AT THIS POINT. God is still teaching me. Although He has given me the new birth by His Spirit and through His blood, I just know I'm not perfect and don't expect to be until He creates that in me. I spent 35 years in ET Christianity, pastor's son, etc., but thanks be to God He opened my eyes at least a little bit, enough to see He has a much bigger plan than forever torturing 95% of His creation, while able to barely snatch a mere 5% from the clutches of satan.

THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"

Hi Theo Book,

Are you speaking of a literal baptism by water or a spiritual baptism?

What about all the people who lived before Christ was even born? Can any of them be in Christ? Wondering how you saw this?

You seem to say God isn't in control of all things, that we have a say in our own lives and salvation. If we have this power, where did we get it? If you say, "God gave it to us", then isn't God still in control if he gave it to us?

If you say we have to choose salvation, then aren't we really saving ourselves? If God put it all in our hands why the need for Jesus to die?

I hope you read all of the articles and post on this site there are answers to every question you have asked.

CHB

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Theo Book

Hi Theo. I've enjoyed much of your last few posts. I have some info I'd like to share as a member, not a mod. I'm really not interested in debating, and (although some disagree with the fine distinction I make) debating is not encouraged on TM - discussion is - which is what I've seen you doing lately. If someone wants to discuss and really understand each others' thoughts and understandings, versus trying to "tear the other's POV down", then sometimes I'm in. But I just really believe I can't make anyone see things my way, and hopefully vice versa - that it's the Spirit of God that really teaches and leads us. I wrote this before I saw the last interchange with lego, so I'll just let it stand as is;

Hi Theo. You and Paul are having a good discussion, kudos. I don't want to interfere, but your last post(s) have prompted me to think about some things I'd like to share with you. I will ONLY share with you what I believe and understand from the scriptures and from what God has revealed to me both in my spirit and in the scriptures.

Briefly, and based on many scriptures which I won't take the time to go find :)

I will present a large outline/framework, within which there are MANY intricacies I admittedly have yet to understand and/or be reconciled for me.

I understand that God had Jesus prepared as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It wasn't Plan B because Plan A failed.

That He concluded all to disobedience, so that He would have mercy on all.

That there was an ultimate price to pay for all mankind's salvation, and Jesus paid it on the cross and when He walked out of that empty tomb.

That He calls and chooses, gives faith to believe on Him as Savior, each in his own order - some now, the rest later. That one must experience the spiritual birth from above, the new birth/born again to see the kingdom. Again, some now, the ecclesia/called out ones, the rest later - as the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings bring their treasures into it. ("Sirs what must I do to be saved?) That we "call on the name of the Lord", "believe on the Lord Jesus" as and when He gives each the faith to do so.

That though God ultimately directs our steps, and He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will, that there are consequences to our disobedience both in this life and in the next age. In this life, as we reap what we sow. In the next age, as we stand before God and all our deeds (and legal standing with Him) are reviewed, judged, and then undergo corrective discipline.

I believe everyone that has anything in them that's not of God will be "tormented" (banismo) for an aion [time period, probably different lengths for different people/situations], sorrow, repentance, and renewal will then occur. I believe Ephesians 1:10 talks of everything being gathered together in Christ, things both above and on the earth. But anything not of God (built on sand, or is wood, hay, stubble) will be spiritually burned, "so that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord". Our God is a consuming Fire, and it will be painful to stand before Him unprepared. There will be a select company not hurt of the second death, but I personally figure I still have things in me that will need to destroyed in the Lake of Fire. I am personally still in process of clarifying/understanding especially this part, but I believe that will still be a different process for anyone saved by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the Spirit, than a total unbeliever. Also (few stripes/many stripes) that someone who never heard/had little to no light (or a baby, for instance) will have a very quick to immediate realization and conversion, as opposed to say Hitler, who may have nothing left of him except the spirit that came from God. Again, these are what I understand AT THIS POINT. God is still teaching me. Although He has given me the new birth by His Spirit and through His blood, I just know I'm not perfect and don't expect to be until He creates that in me. I spent 35 years in ET Christianity, pastor's son, etc., but thanks be to God He opened my eyes at least a little bit, enough to see He has a much bigger plan than forever torturing 95% of His creation, while able to barely snatch a mere 5% from the clutches of satan.

What a mighty God we serve.

What clarity! What conciseness! Not convinced, but certainly food for thought. Thanks.

Question: Why all the references of warnings in N.T? I know they are legitimate because they are referenced by ECF as early as Justin in the 2nd century. What is your understanding on this?

Thanks, and again, I will only present what I understand, because other even UR believers see some of this differently.

MY thoughts - I believe at least MUCH of Jesus' earthly ministry was PRIMARILY to the Jews. That the scriptures have multiple layers, but that many of the things He said to the crowds were PRIMARILY to them, and further, that at least MUCH of it had to do with the coming judgments - during which time those who thought they were in right standing with God and were "in control" of the religious system, were about to be judged, removed, and replaced by the Gentiles - for a season, "until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled - and then all Israel will be saved". I do not believe everything in history was totally fulfilled at 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, temple sacrifice was ended, and the old and the new violently converged. Yet I do believe extremely MAJOR things occurred then that we make a mistake when we ignore, and when we take scriptures out of their primary context and attempt to force them where they may not belong. **Disclaimer - I believe this is a very delicate matter, and we can mess it up one way or the other. Again, God's still teaching. [A couple of notes of interest; Jesus told the disciples that it had been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom, to the others around them, it had not - lest they should see and believe. It was not (most of) their time in God's process/overall Plan. Also, J.Preston Eby's study of Lazarus is well recommended.]

Sooooo, yes, there were warnings, and I agree, they're legitimate. I personally reject a New Age "everybody's already saved, nothing else left to do, nothing else is going to happen, all roads lead to God so don't worry about it" mentality - because the Holy Spirit within me shows me and tells me in the scriptures that that is not the case. I do believe though it takes discernment and rightly dividing the Word of Truth to understand and apply correctly to what these warnings referred and related. I'm still thinking about this myself, but it does seem to me that at least some of Jesus' warnings also referred to an 'end times/end of the world' eschatology - however, the end of what times and what "world"? Also, I see any other warnings in the NT having to do with things like again, 1) reaping and sowing in this lifetime, 2) loss of specific rewards and proximity to the throne and level of service in the Kingdom [Paul was certainly saved by the blood and sealed by the Spirit, yet He still talked of running and working - but NOT for salvation] - still, "many will suffer loss", and 3) absolutely punishment and correction, but temporal and with a purpose of "gathering all things together in Christ" [aion =limited time period with a beginning and end, torment = testing as with a touchstone, and in testing for the purity of gold, hell = mistranslated from gehenna (garbage dump where the bodies of those Jewish religious leaders were actually thrown in disgrace, as they were cast into outer darkness - sheol = the grave, etc....] So I don't deny punishment/discipline, or that it's not a fearful thing to fall in the hands of a living God, etc. - but still, that He doesn't burn His creation with LITERAL fire forever, that He has a better and bigger plan that hinges on Jesus, His Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...

Don't want to ramble too much, and before long it might start to run together, so I'll stop right here and hope it mostly makes sense .

« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 03:18:37 AM by jabcat »

Logged

Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2

Theo Book

THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"

(CHB)Hi Theo Book, Are you speaking of a literal baptism by water or a spiritual baptism?

I am speaking of that baptism that was described in Rom 6 which is a "likeness of his death so that we may be in the likeness of his resurrection;" that which "were baptized into Christ, did put on Christ." I reference that which Peter references when he said "The like figure wherein baptism doth also save us, when speaking of the eight who were saved in the ark from the flood of water; I reference that whcih is spoken of in Hebrew letter "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God."

I sometimes blend the two concepts in my own mind. I think the water baptism is a spiritual experience.

(CHB)

Quote

What about all the people who lived before Christ was even born? Can any of them be in Christ? Wondering how you saw this?

That is why God is in charge at the judgment and not my brothers. I see it as "different covenant, different terms." God will judge that one.

(CHB)

Quote

You seem to say God isn't in control of all things, that we have a say in our own lives and salvation. If we have this power, where did we get it? If you say, "God gave it to us", then isn't God still in control if he gave it to us?

Very good! Yes! I never say God is not in control. I say God is not only in control, but allows us to participate in our own ultimate experience by choosing (there's that bad word) to obey and seek his good pleasure. "Choose you this day whom you will serve" is one example of this sharing of control.

(CHB)

Quote

If you say we have to choose salvation, then aren't we really saving ourselves? If God put it all in our hands why the need for Jesus to die?

That is two VERY different questions. I am beginning to see a merging of what has been offered in this thread, and what I already understood, and it begins to look to me to be something like this.

God knows our hearts. He also knows what is best for each of us, sometimes contrary to what we may think. When he tells us to "choose ye this day..." he is not saying "You are responsible for your own salvation" he is not even saying "I want to know how you will choose," he is saying "I want YOU to know where you stand in this matter."

That makes it much easier to take a stand and defend righteousness to the death if need be, because I already know where I stand, and not only so, I now know that God knows, and what he expects me to do when challenged.

Sometimes when we are challenged as Christians, we falter, because we feel we are alone in this world, having forgotten God does NOT leave us deserted in our time of need. So if we have already "chosen" (sorry) and committed, it is not God who now knows, for he already did know, but now we have the added strength given us by God by virtue of him bringing our choice to our attention in a very obvious way. This causes us to not have to make the decision under stress, but already made it under clearly blessed conditions. We then become able to stand when all others fall to indecision, never having committed themselves to God.

Anyway, that's what I am beginning to see in all this,.

(CHB)

Quote

I hope you read all of the articles and post on this site there are answers to every question you have asked.

CHB

I doubt it. I have been discussing the issue for ten years now, and am just now getting to where I do not lose it, because most of those with whom I discuss it have short fuses. This is the first time I have received mature responses on a board.

I thank my God and I thank you.

I still have a long way to go. BECAUSE I do not claim only I have the answers. I have more questions, therefore, must continue to ask. Until I am removed for insubordination

Theo Book

Thanks, and again, I will only present what I understand, because other even UR believers see some of this differently.

MY thoughts - I believe at least MUCH of Jesus' earthly ministry was PRIMARILY to the Jews. That the scriptures have multiple layers, but that many of the things He said to the crowds were PRIMARILY to them, and further, that at least MUCH of it had to do with the coming judgments - during which time those who thought they were in right standing with God and were "in control" of the religious system, were about to be judged, removed, and replaced by the Gentiles - for a season, "until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled - and then all Israel will be saved". I do not believe everything in history was totally fulfilled at 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, temple sacrifice was ended, and the old and the new violently converged. Yet I do believe extremely MAJOR things occurred then that we make a mistake when we ignore, and when we take scriptures out of their primary context and attempt to force them where they may not belong. **Disclaimer - I believe this is a very delicate matter, and we can mess it up one way or the other. Again, God's still teaching. [A couple of notes of interest; Jesus told the disciples that it had been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom, to the others around them, it had not - lest they should see and believe. It was not (most of) their time in God's process/overall Plan. Also, J.Preston Eby's study of Lazarus is well recommended.]

Sooooo, yes, there were warnings, and I agree, they're legitimate. I personally reject a New Age "everybody's already saved, nothing else left to do, nothing else is going to happen, all roads lead to God so don't worry about it" mentality - because the Holy Spirit within me shows me and tells me in the scriptures that that is not the case. I do believe though it takes discernment and rightly dividing the Word of Truth to understand and apply correctly to what these warnings referred and related. I'm still thinking about this myself, but it does seem to me that at least some of Jesus' warnings also referred to an 'end times/end of the world' eschatology - however, the end of what times and what "world"? Also, I see any other warnings in the NT having to do with things like again, 1) reaping and sowing in this lifetime, 2) loss of specific rewards and proximity to the throne and level of service in the Kingdom [Paul was certainly saved by the blood and sealed by the Spirit, yet He still talked of running and working - but NOT for salvation], and 3) absolutely punishment and correction, but temporal and with a purpose of "gathering all things together in Christ" [aion =limited time period with a beginning and end, torment = testing as with a touchstone, and in testing for the purity of gold, hell = mistranslated from gehenna (garbage dump where the bodies of those Jewish religious leaders were actually thrown in disgrace, as they were cast into outer darkness - sheol = the grave, etc.... so I don't deny punishment/discipline, or that it's not a fearful thing to fall in the hands of a living God, etc. - but still, that He doesn't burn His creation with LITERAL fire forever, that He has a better and bigger plan that hinges on Jesus, His Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...

Don't want to ramble too much, and before long it might start to run together, so I'll stop right here and hope it mostly makes sense .

Matthew 18:6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Mark 9:42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.