How many new females do you want?

Sun Fin wrote:I don't know if this is still the case but back in the day Meng Huo at least use to remember that he was married...

Still the case. Possibly the one married man in the game who gives the impression (after first game as a couple) that he would be upset if wife died rather then simply wonder why half the bed is empty.

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

Dong Zhou wrote:I did like Zhen Ji in 8 in the all too rare occasions she turns up.

DW can do good female characters and good romances but that requires the character to get a light shone on them, else they flicker for a few seconds (8 Zhen Ji), annoy or just not really there. We did seem to get some good new woman characters in 7 who got utterly sidelined in 8 (or in BSN's case, fun in XL and the DW7 conquest, utterly excluded outside that in both games). What does get me is that the males, even in conquest mode like quotes, rarely seem to acknowledge they are married at all. The wife worships the floor with men who just don't care whatsoever for the females and just want to be with their male friends.

She was good in it, like you said when she was in it. Perhaps the Xtreme Legends feature her more. At this point though, if they don't actually define what kind of character she is, then she isn't really all that useful. I always thought it fit Cao Pi better to be a loner anyhow.

And DW 7 did an okay job for the most part. 8 really stripped that away.

I would like to see a storymode for Sun Shang Xiang that involves her taking the reins of her family power. You know, those hypothetical storymodes. Why not? It could be fun.

I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Dong Zhou wrote:I would like koei when, like the SSX/Liu Bei, have multipe choice for how it goes/ends, to flick between the options. Keeps it fresh, keeps people guessing. I do enjoy a good romance but a romantic tradegy or an unhappy marriage would stand out in contrast to the others

Especially since SSX would make for such a great tragic protagonist anyway - at least in the novel. I mean, the story practically writes itself: a woman whose emotions and desires conflict with her sense of filial duty and place as a politically-important figure in the fate of her country. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you can see where Jin Yong got a lot of his storytelling chops.

But I have to wonder if Koei are kind of too stupid to get that. Everything has to conform to the logic of a beat-em-up game (you're in my way, Liu Bei? Then die!), and I'm not sure if that's always the best approach.

Shen Ai wrote:I also have to complain that they edited out most of the romantic subplots. Characters like Cao Pi and Lu Bu feel really, really dry without Diao Chan and Zhen Ji being active parts of their story and characters. It's fine not to make characters all about their significant other, but it really defined Lu Bu's story for example.

I agree. After playing through Cao Wei's hypothetical story mode in DW8XL, I felt like Zhenji was woefully underused, and it really felt like a gyp. The arc went from Guandu ('Oh, you beat me? And you want me to be your wife? Okay then.') straight to the defence of Xuchang ('I'm totally invested in keeping my husband alive and in power'), and nothing in between. And there's just so much more you can do with that. And I also hated that Wenming's sole romantic moment with Zishang was when she basically said to him, 'I'll keep my promise' (to remain close to you), when there was just so much more potential there.

SunXia wrote:If a woman wants to wear something skimpy, even if that person feels they need attention, that is completely fine and her choice to do so as it is her body. However, when female bodies have absolutely no diversity to them and are created to "sell sex" and "sell the female form" to people with penises, that's where it gets bad.

I agree that the boobs-legs-and-panties approach to designing female characters is a naked ploy (no pun intended) to get a certain male demographic to buy games.

But if it isn't just a function of: okay, she's wearing a certain length of skirt therefore it's bad, then it's also not a function of, okay, her bustline is a little too wide, therefore it's bad. It's not automatically disempowering to women to have a character that is, shall we say, pneumatically-built or leggy, especially if it's in a comic context and the author is using the character to make fun of gender relations. (Case in point: Sister Sweden in the comic SatW, which is written by a Danish woman.) There's definitely a difference between using sex appeal to make an intellectual point, and using it for completely gratuitous and self-serving reasons.

(So, for example: Daji or Zhenji being sexy - probably not gratuitous, because they had a reputation historically for being attractive and for using their attractiveness in ways which influenced their times and historical circumstances. Same goes for Diaochan or the Sisters Qiao. Wenming being sexy - probably not called-for, since she was more renowned historically for her wisdom. Wang Yi showing off massive amounts of cleavage - probably not needed, since she was renowned more for her morally-upright character and her personal vendetta against the Ma clan.)

TL;DR version: context matters.

Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.

WeiWenDi wrote:I agree. After playing through Cao Wei's hypothetical story mode in DW8XL, I felt like Zhenji was woefully underused, and it really felt like a gyp. The arc went from Guandu ('Oh, you beat me? And you want me to be your wife? Okay then.') straight to the defence of Xuchang ('I'm totally invested in keeping my husband alive and in power'), and nothing in between. And there's just so much more you can do with that. And I also hated that Wenming's sole romantic moment with Zishang was when she basically said to him, 'I'll keep my promise' (to remain close to you), when there was just so much more potential there.

It'd really add a lot to the character of Cao Pi if we see that grow. Or maybe Koei is uncomfortable with it because... well he offs her. In which case they need to go on and stretch believability as they usually do and ignore it. If Xiahou Ji can fall in love with Zhang Fei of all people in a Koei painted Romeo and Juliet story, then I'm pretty sure they can handle Cao Pi and Zhen Ji. Adding Cao Rui might help.

I feel like Yuanji's role as a whole was really cut down this game. Mostly because of Jia Chong, that evil little toad.

In other news, Cao Zhi and his wife Lady Cui were added to Blast. Lady Cui just feels... pointless. Kind of funny that her outfit has her wearing an elaborate robe though. Well, funny in a morbid way.

I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Especially since SSX would make for such a great tragic protagonist anyway - at least in the novel. I mean, the story practically writes itself: a woman whose emotions and desires conflict with her sense of filial duty and place as a politically-important figure in the fate of her country. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you can see where Jin Yong got a lot of his storytelling chops.

But I have to wonder if Koei are kind of too stupid to get that. Everything has to conform to the logic of a beat-em-up game (you're in my way, Liu Bei? Then die!), and I'm not sure if that's always the best approach.

Jin Yong?

I agree that SSX would make a great tragic protagonist. You also get several different angles to play that tragedy in DW. Does she return to Wu? If yes, does she pine for Liu Bei/mourn his death or is she heartbroken by his "betrayal"? What does she do afterwards? Or she stays in Shu... how does she feel about Liu Bei or her brother? Has the happiness been tinged, does missing her friends now weighing her down?

I think koei have decided, in DW, that every marrige ever was super happy with no affairs, tragedy or other woman if their lives.

I agree. After playing through Cao Wei's hypothetical story mode in DW8XL, I felt like Zhenji was woefully underused, and it really felt like a gyp. The arc went from Guandu ('Oh, you beat me? And you want me to be your wife? Okay then.') straight to the defence of Xuchang ('I'm totally invested in keeping my husband alive and in power'), and nothing in between. And there's just so much more you can do with that. And I also hated that Wenming's sole romantic moment with Zishang was when she basically said to him, 'I'll keep my promise' (to remain close to you), when there was just so much more potential there.

Agreed. I loved her when she was in it, she has a nice spark to her, but she is so sidelined

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

Yeah, insofar as he was influenced by the storytelling style and martial-romantic themes favoured by Luo Guanzhong. It's kind of a truism that the whole genre of martial-arts fiction was significantly shaped by Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Water Margin... but that's a discussion that belongs in the Literature, Academics and Philosophy forum, I think. Or the Sanguo Yanyi Symposium.

Dong Zhou wrote:I agree that SSX would make a great tragic protagonist. You also get several different angles to play that tragedy in DW. Does she return to Wu? If yes, does she pine for Liu Bei/mourn his death or is she heartbroken by his "betrayal"? What does she do afterwards? Or she stays in Shu... how does she feel about Liu Bei or her brother? Has the happiness been tinged, does missing her friends now weighing her down?

I think koei have decided, in DW, that every marrige ever was super happy with no affairs, tragedy or other woman if their lives.

So pretty much the opposite of British drama, then. Or American drama, for that matter.

Dong Zhou wrote:Agreed. I loved her when she was in it, she has a nice spark to her, but she is so sidelined

Yeah. Once again, voice-work is a quantum leap above the other DW games, and story just got thrown in the circular file for some reason.

Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.