Well I am glad that as badly as I think of this event, that there is at least someone on the Carol side of things to make this feel more like a Civil War. All I was hearing was anti-Carol. Glad to know she has her supporters as well, to make this not just a anti-Carol story.(Though it still feels that way to me, as I have lost all respect for that character for now Thanks Marvel)

Well now, wait, I'm not purely siding with Carol. Stopping Modok at a site of attack, a Hydra uprising; all those are events that seem to have been prevented. Good deal.

It's this Wall Streeter that has broken things for me. And, oh yeah, deciding to arrest any one that disagrees with her. HUH?!!

Doesn't mean Tony's right, as Carol has done some good in the world. However, without a Vell Kree warrior there with Cosmic Awareness to see the paths the future may tread down based on the actions that Carol does today, in this regard, we truly can't know if the further futures Ulysses is seeing are caused by what Carol has changed.

i am finally up to CWII via MCU and was wondering...are the tie-ins critical to the events of the mini (read in order on monthly basis for it to make sense) or is it more like Pleasant hill where the mini can be read alone and the tie in just add some additional details or follow side stories.

I read #1 & 2 and its ok despite the huge error in judgement, especially hypocritical is Hank McCoy being upset with tony after he has spent the last few yrs screwing with time travel and failing to find any sort of cure for the Cloud or challenging the Inhuman's for "invading sovereign territories" (ie: lets place our floating city above a major US city, not an invasion, then blow it up releasing a major Bio-toxin into the atmosphere" but kidnapping an inhuman is beyond their limit for tolerance.

And, it's finally happened. The most important part to me concerning the 'future unfolding by Ulysses' has occurred in a different book.

All New Wolverine 11

Why?

Because of Ulysses stating he had a vision about OML killing Gabby, they go to arrest him first, and then due to the events of the confrontation and arrest, Gabby gets killed

Self fulfilling prophecy!! THIS is what I was worried about beginning to happen!! Perhaps this will also happen in CW #5, but for right now, this is the biggest moment of the branding of the event.

With the aforementioned event occurring-NO vision of Ulysses could ever be trusted again. You could never know if the future would happen...or if the event would be shaped and caused by 'fighting the future.'

For Carol to continue, if knowing and truly understanding what wrong just occurred, would make her the greatest villain of all.

I'm already disgusted by the abuse of Shield 'arrests', pre-emptive attacks on allies or people. Because, you have to consider this; in the American law system; how would you incarcerate any person arrested? They haven't done anything!! There's no law broken, no body of proof, nothing to accuse!!

Which means she's holding every one completely illegally. When would they get out? Ever? This totaltarian militant despot just decides 'you're in prison' and that's it? And the US gov't and people should be fine with that? Can you imagine if Pleasant Hill and this CW II event became utter public knowledge-which it more or less already has? It should be CW I all over again!!

Sorry man, saw this a couple days ago, but only had time to make a quick post to another thread.

I can only say that I agree. But I have shunned all aspects of that crap a long time ago.

Really, I just had to. For all the reason you stated.

But that is what pissed me off more is they took a character (Carol) and wiped away any redeeming value to her. She was so wrong no-one could be on her side. This was not "Civil War" it was "Carol is stupid as hell"

I just had to push that shit out of my head.

Now as for the SHIELD stuff ... I do agree with you and what you are saying, I do, but with the titles I have been reading (or trying to read) that actual side of the Marvel Universe, or the nature of "Marvel Governent/Anti-Government/SHIELD", doesn't really come into those stories, luckily. Well, it does in Ultimates 2 a little, because of Carol (who seems kinda different now), maybe a tad in TA Hulk, but for the most part, the comics I have been trying to stay caught up on (and still failing madly) those are able to be read without all that ... crap ... being in or ruining the story. I can just forget all that shit happened and stay in my warm "each title is its own uni" reading world.

Now I have not read, and this should prove how badly I am behind, more than a single issue of either Iron Man title (maybe I did read the second of one of them but I don't remember right now), and I am sure those two titles would certainly be more involved in what you are expressing, but I have been lucky(?) enough to be more concentrated on the titles that are a far reach to any connection to that aspect.

Maybe Sam America is more into that, but I am behind on that as well.

I have not read, not plan to, any of Carol's solo book. Who is buying that book anyway? All the fans (I forgot their name) certainly can't think the same of her so I am sure they are not truly supporting it like they were prior. Are there people that hate her or what she did and just want to know more about her thinking picking up her book? Like reading about a villain? Like me reading Thanos (or me hopefully going to read the new Kingpin and Bullseye).

Marvel just killed this character for me. Even in Ultimates I just want her gone. Go away. Bah

Man, I am sorry this is all over the place again. It seems the only time I get a chance to post in detail, I am so fired up that I have the time that I try to type and think too fast so I am all over the place.

"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year. So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up. And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith

Going back through, page by page, I’m quite irritated in how they confronted Bruce. Blaming, harsh, combative, withholding. Who the hell are Carol and Tony that Bruce has to answer to them, as if he is a child being scolded by angry parents who are yelling ‘do as I say, not as I do!’

In being fair, I’m not labeling this as bad writing, I’m saying Carol and Tony seriously misjudged how to go about starting this conversation. Mind you, yes, he’s the Hulk and all. But you don’t bring an army to Bruce Banner and expect him to stay civil and calm.

Second strike? Going through his files-in front of him-and calling him out without understanding all his research. Bad moves on the parts of the…protagonists, not on the writer. I can distinguish that, Perry.

Then that bitch-rag Maria Hill goes to arrest him. ON WHAT CHARGES!!! “We have to detain you.” (again this gets into how unlawful and, well, fucking evil SHIELD is. More of that next issue!) Detain him on what grounds? Fear and paranoia? Is there a single person there that truly understands gamma radiation like Dr. Banner? (being that this is a comic, and all geniuses understand all science immediately, no matter what degree they have, possibly), but Sam Cap going ‘oh. My. God.’ And Spidey going ‘Oh, no.’ What the hell do you guys know about any of this? You just 'tldr'ed that headline! Shit, there’s how many months of research there, and Beast just got all of it? Puhleez.

Here, I may go after the writing, because the characters went ballistic in reaction, and then bammo, Bruce is dead. Ugh. What an ugh moment. Then, the beginning of more writing character assassination and pathetic blame-writing. Tony ‘I was there to stop you from doing this! It’s your fault!’ Sure, if you meant that, you wouldn’t have allowed an army to show up to talk nicely over tea.

Then the Gestapo, I mean SHIELD, declare it a federal crime scene. Under what jurisdiction? The US? Because you sure don’t follow all US laws.

Matt Murdock, painting Clint Barton as a criminal was such a damn farce of dialogue I f***ing scoffed out loud. ‘Potentially’ as a lawyer, maybe he’s painting a picture as the prosecutor, but still.

Getting back to Tony’s ‘indignation’ high road sanctimonious attitude- HE FUCKING SENT BRUCE INTO SPACE TO LIVE AND DIE OUT THERE. HE INJECTED VILLAINS WITH NANOBOTS TO CONTROL THEM TO GO AFTER HIS OWN FRIENDS AND ALLIES. That ‘next on your hit list’ line to Carol just made me choke on my tongue. Lets not forget that last issue he KIDNAPPED SOMEONE, DID ABUSE TO HIM, AFTER INVADING A FOREIGN POWER BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE WAS ENTIRELY RIGHT AND TO HELL WITH ALL OTHERS. Accountability Tony? Look in a fucking mirror. Such nonsense writing.

In issue 4, I feel, is where so much of the narrative falls apart, because now we start talking about true philosophical overtures pitted not against free will, but poor science.

Mind you, this is good one part review, one part personal taste, and one part rant. Pick apart what you feel may actually be valid.

So this is where I'm at and so far I'm enjoying the story. But on this issue... yeah....what Jimmy said.

Logged

"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year. So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up. And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith

I'm really getting bogged down with all the tie-ins. Can I skip these and only read the main story and the series I normally read? Or is there one I need to read because they revel something important?

Logged

"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year. So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up. And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith

Like most Marvel Events, the tie-ins are just there to be part of the story, if that, so heck yeah, move on past those suckers so you can be done with all things Civil War II ... and never look back again