I don't think space enough to spread wings and move about, and cleanliness are too much to ask.

To be realistic, it's more than any chicken producer will ever pay to do. They would literally have to tear down thier entire cage area and rebuild it.

None of them will do that, ever. The down time alone would cost them a fortune. The materials, construction and labor would be cost prohibitive.

Your ideas are great "feel good" ideas Kathleen, but that type of system has to be built from the ground up. No existing producer can afford to do the modifications to existing structures.

Seriously, go to a place that actually has the cages you don't like and see what a mammoth and costly undertaking it would be to alter it to a "perfect" process. That cost would initially have to be borne by the owner of the business. No businessperson in their right mind would shut their entire operation down to do that type of overhaul to make a bunch of chickens feel better about their captivity.

I do love animals, but the business side of me keeps me thinking within the realms of reality.

Mods like what you desire, cost money. Where is that money going to come from realistically?

To be realistic, it's more than any chicken producer will ever pay to do. They would literally have to tear down thier entire cage area and rebuild it.

None of them will do that, ever. The down time alone would cost them a fortune. The materials, construction and labor would be cost prohibitive.

Your ideas are great "feel good" ideas Kathleen, but that type of system has to be built from the ground up. No existing producer can afford to do the modifications to existing structures.

Seriously, go to a place that actually has the cages you don't like and see what a mammoth and costly undertaking it would be to alter it to a "perfect" process. That cost would initially have to be borne by the owner of the business. No businessperson in their right mind would shut their entire operation down to do that type of overhaul to make a bunch of chickens feel better about their captivity.

I do love animals, but the business side of me keeps me thinking within the realms of reality.

Mods like what you desire, cost money. Where is that money going to come from realistically?

I'm going to politely disagree, Timothy. Cleanliness does not require a business cage overhaul. Room to move may simply require them to put a few less birds in each cage and they can design better cages as they expand. Failure to comply with basic laws of hygiene and ethical practices should cause a company to shut down. Selling cheap eggs is one thing. Creating conditions for unsafe food and unnecessarily creating harm to animals is another. When ABC was given a tour of the egg company, the look of the production plant looked MUCH more reasonable - of course, it was a different facility but the same company.

I'm going to politely disagree, Timothy. Cleanliness does not require a business cage overhaul. Room to move may simply require them to put a few less birds in each cage and they can design better cages as they expand. Failure to comply with basic laws of hygiene and ethical practices should cause a company to shut down. Selling cheap eggs is one thing. Creating conditions for unsafe food and unnecessarily creating harm to animals is another. When ABC was given a tour of the egg company, the look of the production plant looked MUCH more reasonable - of course, it was a different facility but the same company.

Fewer birds in each cage means more cages. More cages cost more money. More cleanliness means more labor hours, which in turn means more labor costs. Who is going to pay these costs? The consumer. By paying more for each dozen eggs or each pound of chicken meat. Tell a large restaurant that you are going to charge them 25% more for each flat of eggs and you'll lose a customer. Do it to enough customers and you lose your entire business when you can't sell your product. Its all a money thing. From git to go. Following the laws that are already set isn't optional. If you are aware of a place that has specific exceptions to the law, you need to report them to the appropriate authorities and follow up on them.

I think the reason these place don't follow the laws is that no one really cares enough to make them do so.

I still say it's impossible to kill an animal humanely. How can anyone kill another living creature and make its death humane?

Less than torture, sure. Cruel and unusual killing, sure, that can be changed to a method of killing that is as instantaneous as possible.

To give them a perfect life, they would have to be allowed to live until they died naturally.

I'm all for making it all right for the animals, but ruining businesses in the process isn't the method I would suggest.

I agree. It's pointless to argue about something that won't be changed.

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

This is where we make the difference, a dollar at a time. There are more and more people shopping at our Whole Foods type grocery than ever before. All meat and dairy is produced in state at small farms, most within 100 miles of Missoula. It's making it tough to find a good shopping time when the store is slow.

I get a giggle seeing the small locally owned grocer has more cashiers working at a time than the Super Wal-Mart.

__________________“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.” - Albert Einstein

This is where we make the difference, a dollar at a time. There are more and more people shopping at our Whole Foods type grocery than ever before. All meat and dairy is produced in state at small farms, most within 100 miles of Missoula. It's making it tough to find a good shopping time when the store is slow.

I get a giggle seeing the small locally owned grocer has more cashiers working at a time than the Super Wal-Mart.

I like Whole Foods, but they are pretty spendy here. We just had another organic/whole foods chain open locally called Moms Organic Market (MOM). Their prices are awesome. They have a decent selection on grains and canned goods. They do not compare with the huge selection of proteins that Whole Foods has. Still....worth a trip!

Growing up, we had a Mom and Pop grocery a block away. They had the best butcher shop and cut their own meats. Also, they would keep bottles of soda in the meat locker. The soda's were perfect as they were cold enough to have a few little ice pieces, but never froze beyond that. A local farmer brought them produce in the summertime when it was available.

I did say Whole Foods Type store. They are locally owned, I am careful though, sometimes they are more expensive on some items and sometimes cheaper. Their bulk food section cannot be beat, but often 10 cents higher per pound than the Regional grocers. Have to watch it! I do a lot of pre-shopping to decide where I'll be heading for most of my purchases.

__________________“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.” - Albert Einstein

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

I agreed then and I still do. Kathleen, you and I see completely different methods to the same end result and neither of us will budge on the way we perceive things to be, so there is nothing to gain by arguing the points.

Two friends from high school started a self-sustainable farm in 2008. I check the blog regularly. Many of the things they can do, we could never do in Ontario. And, I'm so jealous of their high-tunnel greenhouse!