I generally make the experience that Linux is considered a counter-culture and people using it claim to be uber geeks just because they managed to set up a Linux box. Many of them flame Windows users for still using Windows and don't accept that Windows works for them.

Most Linux users I know were converted by Linux apologetics although they have been having a decent Windows workflow for years. Why don't you all just stop trying to be Sales Staff when people don't need the thing you want to sell? Problem solved.

/dev/urandom wrote:I generally make the experience that Linux is considered a counter-culture and people using it claim to be uber geeks just because they managed to set up a Linux box. Many of them flame Windows users for still using Windows and don't accept that Windows works for them.

Says the guy who's avatar is BSD, ahem, giving it, to Tux. (What'd be real funny is Tux's head stuck in a broken window.)

/dev/urandom wrote:Most Linux users I know were converted by Linux apologetics although they have been having a decent Windows workflow for years. Why don't you all just stop trying to be Sales Staff when people don't need the thing you want to sell? Problem solved.

I agree, and with the above statement too. However, I can't miss an opportunity to call you on it!

You're right, I'm not some kind of super-computer-guy who can program in 8 languages, cracks college mainframes, and hangs out with Morpheus on weekends. However, I enjoy my computer running faster (swifter is more accurate), I enjoy the open-source, and free software that's available, and I enjoy a change of pace from Windows XP, Vista, 7.

The beauty of Linux is diversity. Linux is freedom. Linux allows you to set things up "your way". Choose your interface, choose your distribution, choose what fits you, and what you like. Windows is about as diverse as the food at a mexican restaurant.

“What is nacho? Tortilla with cheese, meat, or vegetables. Then what is a burrito? Tortilla with cheese, meat, or vegetables. Then what is a tostada? Tortilla with meat, cheese, or vegetables. Then what is….It’s all the same! Why don’t you say a Spanish word and I’ll bring ya something!” - Jim Gaffigan.

Holy Cripes on Toast!Attention is the currency of internet forums. - ticopelp

Shibblet wrote: However, I enjoy my computer running faster (swifter is more accurate), I enjoy the open-source, and free software that's available, and I enjoy a change of pace from Windows XP, Vista, 7.

I doubt Linux is generally swifter. Also, you can use Windows with "only" open source software. I try to do the same.(In case of politics: What about the Linux kernel blobs?)

Shibblet wrote: Linux is freedom.

The GPL is actually quite restrictive, you are forced to agree to its terms in order to make use of that "freedom". Including that you are forbidden to use it in closed source software.

Shibblet wrote: Linux allows you to set things up "your way". Choose your interface, choose your distribution, choose what fits you, and what you like.

So is Windows. (Except the "distribution" part.) So is quite every OS, except Mac OS X maybe...

My computers definitely run faster on Linux. If you find the right distro for your hardware, you are usually in good shape, and no Windows viruses And Pithos, thank God for Pithos Lots of good free software for Linux as well as Linux being free.

Since using Linux I've never had to pay a cent for the operating system, and I've never once been shutdown by viruses. I was monthly cleaning viruses off of Windows, and two computers were killed by Windows viruses. The only thing I've 'paid' for Linux is time invested learning how to use it. Though something can be found wrong with anything if we try hard enough

There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal

Perhaps Windows does make people lazy but what good reason is there that, lets say 'Java', go to the website download the latest double click and it just works? I looked at the installation instructions and nearly gave up then and there!!

Its not 1985 any more guys, terminal window should not be a requirement for the average user 'ATALL'!!

I want to use Linux but i dont have the time or the patience to learn all the jive just to install and get a basic system working

So, my brief experience

Java... gave me a headache (completley unnessasary run about) Flash.. slow and laggy and choppy videoATI HD 9670 driver.. is it installed, isnt it??? why is there no GUI showing hardware and driver information? I want to see a list of all hardware and what drivers are installed (if any) against it!. And when i did finally manage to run the driver install from ati/amd it says some other part needed deinstalling first... again, back to research, terminal window... WHERE is the click UNINSTALL?

Oh, and how about this little beaut lmao... I was watching a video on VLC player, paused and walked away, came back later and was presented with the password screen... but i couldnt enter the password, my key strokes where pausing and unpausing the movie (i could hear the sound) so i had to restart (pull the plug) (my password begins with a 'p' should anyone wish to try it)

unbelievable bug lmao

Again, this is 2012

No i havnt asked for help, these basic things should either not occur or answer should be easily found via a search. Again, time i dont have.

I, like the majority of the world expect an OS to be easy for basic day to day use, install/uninstall and setup. I dont want or need to learn to use the terminal, i have far to little time for family and friends as it is.

Linux is a hobby not a tool and until it drops the need for the terminal it will never be accepted by the majority, so quiet trying to get the mountain to come to you and you go to it!

krustymk wrote:There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal

There absolutely is. The terminal is the most important tool in the Linux world. If a new user does not want that and prefers the mouse, he might go better with Windows or that Apple thingy.

If you don't want to type things into a terminal window every now and then, Linux might not be the right system for you. Good thing there is choice.Choosing an Operating System should never be done by current hypes.

Thats fine if you dont want Linux to be taken on by a majority, if you do however things need to change, the terminal should be an option if you want to become a default home OS

To the average end user it has to be a simple experiance with a low learning curve for simple things like setting up and installing basic plugins/addons and basic fault diagnosis.

Keep the terminal, but dont make it a requirement for new users to get set up for basic use. The average user should never need to even see it.

Just look at the way the world is going, if it doesnt offer a 'pick up and use it' with a low learning curve it gets dropped or kicked to the side.

The question is ' Why do new people give up on Linux?' ive told you, if you dont like it then thats fine, but thats the way it is and will remain unless you change it.

But i stand by my statement of 'There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal'. If you disagree, by all means present a good arguement but it wont stop new users leaving

Here is an example.I am trying to install flash update from the adobe site in the hope it improves the situation.I am presented with an rpm or a YUM download option.Now flash is something that a new user might expect to be installed already, but at the very leaast go to the adobe site, click download and run or at the very least be a simple way to execute the file, double click, right click... something.No... all i have been able to manage so far is unpack it

Im not asking how to do it, ill figure that out, im saying something so simple shouldnt be so time consuming an effort

Just because an idea is made/used by a competitor doesnt make it a bad idea or something to be laughed at.. we dont do that, this is linux... Ive seen this attitude in industry far to much, but they all eventually take on the good idea's.. after some time.

So, i would like to hear a qood reason why mr average who just wants to browse a bit of facebook, read some email, not look at **** a little bit of basic word processing/spreadsheeting, play a few simple games should open a terminal?

Thats fine if you dont want Linux to be taken on by a majority, if you do however things need to change, the terminal should be an option if you want to become a default home OS

I think chasing market share would be a fools game for Linux developers to play. It would require billions of dollars for promotion, court fights and an army of paid developers. Linux is a niche OS always has been, is now and I suspect it always will be.

To the average end user it has to be a simple experiance with a low learning curve for simple things like setting up and installing basic plugins/addons and basic fault diagnosis.Define average user? If its one who can't or won't read a manual, follow directions or move beyond point and click then your right Linux may not be for them but that is alright there are alternatives.

Keep the terminal, but dont make it a requirement for new users to get set up for basic use. The average user should never need to even see it.

That is an opinion you can have but the reality is sooner or later the majority of users end up using the terminal for one reason or another. Otherwise they end up with crippled or at best less that an optimized system.

Just look at the way the world is going, if it doesnt offer a 'pick up and use it' with a low learning curve it gets dropped or kicked to the side.What about the folks who are already using and supporting Linux? The millions of folks around the world who are able to utilize what is available in Linux. Speaking for myself I don't care if Linux use remained in the single digit as long as it works.

The question is ' Why do new people give up on Linux?' ive told you, if you dont like it then thats fine, but thats the way it is and will remain unless you change it.

No you have given me you opinion and I have offered another perspective. Lets face it we are both probably a little wrong and a little right in our opinions.

But i stand by my statement of 'There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal'. That is fine you can stand by your opinion but it just that an opinion. Not necessarily a reality one has to believe in.

If you disagree, by all means present a good arguement but it wont stop new users leaving

Don't need to because I don't care, I an a happy Mint user. Hang around long enough and you will see and endless flow of whiners, flamers, ranters and trolls with the same complaints. They come, they go and Linux just keeps rolling along. Not to say that you fit into any of the above categories. Relax and Enjoy

If you don't like it, make something betterIf you can't make something better, adaptIf you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.However doing it in public is really hardcore.

monkeyboy wrote:krustymk, There is a learning curve for using Linux and some folks just don't want to or cant address it. That is OK because Linux isn't right for everyone and there are alternatives. Relax and enjoy.

If you do not want the answer. Don't ask the question! Krustymk summarize all the reason will Linux do not make progress. He forgot one think: be force to reinstall every 3 years. Just when thing run finally smoothly . You are force to open a new can of worm. Why Gentoo is the only distribution with a package manager system with a command "upgrade everything" ?

Thats fine if you dont want Linux to be taken on by a majority, if you do however things need to change, the terminal should be an option if you want to become a default home OS

I think chasing market share would be a fools game for Linux developers to play. It would require billions of dollars for promotion, court fights and an army of paid developers. Linux is a niche OS always has been, is now and I suspect it always will be.

Firefox managed it without the billions of dollars and so on

To the average end user it has to be a simple experiance with a low learning curve for simple things like setting up and installing basic plugins/addons and basic fault diagnosis.

Define average user? If its one who can't or won't read a manual, follow directions or move beyond point and click then your right Linux may not be for them but that is alright there are alternatives.

Average user would most likely be using facebook, surf the web, view pictures (digital camara) email, maybe word now perhaps a bit of gaming and then and that pretty much it i guess thats it. You talk as if point and click is bad? The more simple your product is to use the better response you'll see. it needs to evolve not de-evolve

Keep the terminal, but dont make it a requirement for new users to get set up for basic use. The average user should never need to even see it.

That is an opinion you can have but the reality is sooner or later the majority of users end up using the terminal for one reason or another. Otherwise they end up with crippled or at best less that an optimized system.

If a user wants to delve a little deeper then discovering and using the terminal is fine but not the average user (as i defined) there is no need for this kind of depth, which frankly just appears to be here just to have bragging rights. DOS got left behind for a reason, about time linux figured it out

Just look at the way the world is going, if it doesnt offer a 'pick up and use it' with a low learning curve it gets dropped or kicked to the side.

What about the folks who are already using and supporting Linux? The millions of folks around the world who are able to utilize what is available in Linux. Speaking for myself I don't care if Linux use remained in the single digit as long as it works.

Linux user base grows everytime it becomes simpler for the end user to grasp easily, is it so hard to work out why? Yes people are lazy, people dont want to read manuals or go on courses, people have lives they want to spend with family or friends. Spending time learning how to install something like java is time that could be spent better elsewhere. We have seen this process can be easy, why make it hard!? And really, you ought to care that linux doesnt become single digits or it would die, and that would happen a LONG time before it got anywhere near single digits

The question is ' Why do new people give up on Linux?' ive told you, if you dont like it then thats fine, but thats the way it is and will remain unless you change it.

No you have given me you opinion and I have offered another perspective. Lets face it we are both probably a little wrong and a little right in our opinions.

Thats right, this is my opinion, and frankly because i am a new person to linux i am in a far better place to answer this question than you are to say im wrong

But i stand by my statement of 'There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal'.

That is fine you can stand by your opinion but it just that an opinion. Not necessarily a reality one has to believe in.

No, thats right but the simple fact this question exists shows weather you believe in this reality or not, its here

If you disagree, by all means present a good arguement but it wont stop new users leaving

Don't need to because I don't care, I an a happy Mint user. Hang around long enough and you will see and endless flow of whiners, flamers, ranters and trolls with the same complaints. They come, they go and Linux just keeps rolling along. Not to say that you fit into any of the above categories. Relax and Enjoy

You dont care?! that is a dissapointing statement in its self and to be honest i think you must else why defend linux, but your missing my point. Im not attacking, maybe whining a little but thats understandable considering. I am attempting to answer the thread's question and give feedback that will help grow Linux

I have pointed out what i believe is the biggest hurdle to a new user, being a new user i think im pretty well qualified to give that answer?Now, you being an experienced user, i am asking you this question.. Why does Linux 'need' a new user to use the terminal, something that cant be achieved with GUI or a manner similer to windows

If your hardware is properly supported in your distro, then the terminal isn't necessary. The key is hardware compatibility and proper drivers. If it isn't, well then non-tech users will have to do some advanced tweaking like the rest of us, a lot of it requiring terminal input. A distro like Ubuntu certainly aims at giving the average newcomers as little reason as possible to use the terminal.

Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

Yes , in Linux there sometimes is no option but the command line [terminal] but many times that is less keystrokes than a point and click system. Even with Windows 7 some trouble shooting and other commands are best done at the CMD command line, to me this is a shortcut to point and click. Boot & Startup problems, network problems, System crashes, program problems, and HDD problems, sound familiar? These are some of the main problems I see here in the forum, these, just as in Windows are much easier to remedy from the command line [CMD].

What I like about Linux is most of the time you don't have to spend as much time installing drivers as you do installing the OS, many times no drivers to install. Besides re-installing the other OS, and I've done it may times is just as much fun as pulling hen's teeth, last time I did it from start to installing the drivers was 5 hours, by the time I got to installing the drivers I was bumping my head on the wall.

Another thing I like about Linux is when people have problems, with what I have learned about the system so far, I can help walk them though it. My friends that "rent" the other OS seems to think that what I've learned over the years and my time are free just because, and can drop off the computer to get fixed for free. I've stopped most of that, now I'm an a$$ for wanting to be payed for my time. [most of it is just fixing stupid, and there is no real fix for that,besides I know someone that will fix it for me for free attitude ]I still have no problem walking them though a problem and help them fix it most don't want helped, they want it fixed for free, so they can do something stupid again . Even my 70yr old aunt likes me to to walk her though a problem in windows 7, than to just come over and fix it, which would really be less time for me but she likes to learn so she can do it on her own, she even has a notbook that she keeps notes in next to the computer for quick reference for problems that have been solved before. So I think most of the problems people have with Linux is their mind set of letting someone else do all the thinking not the OS.

This 'other' OS? its certainly not window7, ive built a few systems for friends and the only problems ive really encountered are with onboard sound drivers when i have had no disc.Installing is not really much different at all, except in mint i struggled to get it to choose a drive i wanted. I was sure i deleted a drive and set linux to install on that thinking it would format it correctly and install..... OHHHH NOOOO... nothing so simple.From a dvd i would say they are similer to install time wise, Linux is a whole other ball game concerning drivers (its better, but still rubbish) windows7 has them pretty much all on-board, and if not when you are connected to the net it finds, downloads and installs them for you. Anyone who says Linux is easier than windows for drivers is blatently talking rubbish. I still cant even find a list of hardware in my machine with driver information against it, something so basic. Oh look my graphics card is not using the correct driver, quick download, double click, wait, sorted

If you mean apple... no experience really, reinstalled a macbook once, different... it had to download the OS as part of the procedure... Thats apple i guess

The terminal should be for people who fix, an end user shouldn't need to touch something like the terminal.

But, i guess sticking your head in the sand and going lalalalala will stop new peolpe leaving?

But here's an out there idea,

Listen to what new users say (dont jump to defend the current system) LISTENAsk questions, what if's, how about this and so onCheck out the feasibility, sometimes change is hard and not always a bad thingDo not EVER bash competitors systems or compare in a negative manner, sounds at the very least unprofessional and fanboyish

I dont think the problem is with letting someone else do the thinking, certainly not with me.

The problem is ease of setting up, straight away a new user will hit a wall (unless he/she) is luckyI wanted to install java, i look and straight away im hit with a wall of textIt says what to do but it all assuming a certain level of knowledge already that a new user doesnt have

For example

InstallLogin as Super user. ? how do i do that. more researchChange to the directory in which you want to install. Type:cd For example, to install the software in the /usr/java/ directory, Type:cd /usr/javaNote about root access: To install Java in a system-wide location such as /usr/local, you must login as the root user to gain the necessary permissions. If you do not have root access, install Java in your home directory or a subdirectory for which you have write permissions.What?! Super user, root user, what is root access, if i can just install in my home directory why all this other stuff, write permissions

Loads of research to install something once.The majority of new users (if they install themselves) will only need to do things like this once, its just not worth the time and energy doing the research, hitting wall after wall, waiting for answers just to install several programs/drivers they will never have to do again untill reinstall/upgrade time. So they leave

Hence loose the terminal and things like this will be forced to become silent installs or at the very least GUI

I agree with krustymk and other who say that the terminal has to be avoidable for noobs as much as is humanly possible.

I do agree that the idea of targeting more technically advanced users seems sound.

One thing Apple did in it's early days was target creative people- musicians, artists, writers who wanted to do desktop publishing, but were creative, right-brained types who didn't want to learn arcane DOS commands.

I think Linux, or at least a particular Linux distribution needs to do something similar. The thing is that many artists and musicians are POOR.(Ask me how I know...) They can't really afford a new Windows computer, let alone a Mac. Macs are great for SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, and writers! And when you're trying to create something, you really don't need virus-related stresses! But Apple proved that creative right-brained people DO NOT want to use the command line, no matter WHAT you call it!!! And they don't want technospeak related stresses either!

I think to some degree distros are missing the boat by targeting look and feel rather than targeting creative communities with the tools they need to get the job done. I think Mint should COME with a real-time kernel, Audacity, and better sound setup.Oh yeah... there IS another creative community that Linux could target- podcasters. I think they tend to be ready for a little more of a learning curve, and since they have some extra overhead for microphones and stuff, would be happy for free software.And since videos are a big deal due to YouTube and all, Linux Mint should come with video editing software installed.

I know there is Ubuntu Studio, but somehow I think that Mint has the philosophy that will work best for musicians.IDEA... maybe make the LTS releases the ones loaded with the extra creativity software.