Well, this is interesting. While at Tenryu yesterday, I bought a box of ten Double Fish V40+ 3-star ABS balls for RM35, or about 79 US cents each. I also bought two 6-packs of the 3-star DHS D40+ at a "2 for 1" deal at RM32 (not dissimilar to TTNPP's 72-for USD40 price anyway), which is about 60 US cents each.

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So the DF V40+ were almost a third dearer than the DHS D40+. If you buy from TTNPP, the V40+ is also more expensive than the D40+. Not really a big deal considering the higher prices of what came before, but still a consideration.

I thought, well, if DHS is making them for DF, then sure, DF needs a little extra markup for the OEM balls, and they'll cost more. The V40+ and D40+ feel the same. If I bounce them on a wooden floor they sound the same. They seem to bounce around the same height.

Then I held them up to the light:

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It's been pointed out that the D40+ has a wider seam than the NP40+.

The V40+ seam is much narrower than the D40+ seam. Double Fish appear to be making their own ABS ball, not simply rebranding DHS's. I don't know what effect, if any, the narrower seam will have on durability or play. But the V40+ could be worthy of further examination. I'll bring some of both to my meeting with Iskandar later this week, and we can give them a whack.

_________________"Once you get past a certain threshold, everyone's problems are the same: fortifying your island and hiding the heat signature from your fusion reactor." –Doctor Impossible

Double Fish has always been a major manufacturer themselves, so I'm not surprised that they are different. DHS as a manufacturer is a lot bigger though, which is probably why they can make them cheaper. It's good that have some competition though, so I hope the Double Fish ball is good too.It would be really good to hear how they compare in play.

In my opinion the Double Fish celluloids were the best of the celluloids, better than the equivalent DHS. Even the one stars were good enough for games. Lasted a long time, too. I hope these new V40 balls continue in the same vein.

Played in the lobby this afternoon for the first time in a long time. And ended up losing two more Double Fish one stars to the light fixtures.

Hangdog, that is a VERY interesting observation regarding the difference between D40+ and V40+. I have not tried any V40+ or seen any yet but I am glad you posted this.

One reason this is interesting is because the seam on the Nittaku Premium is also quite a bit thinner than the D40+, and in fact look like the V40+. They are so small they are almost invisible if you don't shine light through. The way the ball halves are sealed together is a a procedure that was patented by Nittaku (I think zeio once posted a patent he found on that). It looks like DF is using a similar or identical procedure. In my review the D40+ thread I mentioned the larger seam because i was curious if the thing DHS was making was a complete clone of the Nittaku Premium (and it is not, just on the basis of the seam and also the weight difference). So it looks like the D40+ and V40+ are not clones either. By the way, DF and DHS always had separate manufacturing facilities.

For those reasons it will be fascinating to see how the V40s plays and ALSO what they weigh. I am looking forward to seeing what you find out.

Unlike Iskander, I very much disliked the DF celluloids (they are popular still in my wife's hometown in China) and always preferred DHS (and especially preferred the Nittakus made in Japan; the Nittakus made in China were re-branded DHS). On the other hand, among the horrible cellulose acetate balls, a lot of people think the DF are a little better than DHS. I think they are both bad, since cellulose acetate is just a bad material, but I think the DF bounced a little more consistently.

The per-ball price difference between V40+ and D40+ is less if ordering through TTNPP, perhaps around 15% if ordering 7 boxes of 10 V40+. The V40+ are only 45 US cents per ball, but that is before postage, which then brings them up to 65 cents, compared with the D40+ "free postage" price of 56 cents per ball. YMMV by location (or not, depending on the geographic settings of TTNPP's postage calculator).

TTNPP do offer free postage on 100-ball packs of no-star and 1-star V40+, though. These come in at per-ball prices of 30 and 35 cents respectively.

_________________"Once you get past a certain threshold, everyone's problems are the same: fortifying your island and hiding the heat signature from your fusion reactor." –Doctor Impossible

Thanks to you and haggisv for pointing that out. I always assumed they were separate outfits, but with all the publicity surrounding the D40+ and no equivalent uproar about the V40+ (at least in the English-language forums) — as well as the similar naming, and time of release — I was drawn to the wrong conclusion…

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For those reasons it will be fascinating to see how the V40s plays and ALSO what they weigh. I am looking forward to seeing what you find out.

Iskandar, can you bring your electronic balance to PJ Union?

_________________"Once you get past a certain threshold, everyone's problems are the same: fortifying your island and hiding the heat signature from your fusion reactor." –Doctor Impossible

Thanks to you and haggisv for pointing that out. I always assumed they were separate outfits, but with all the publicity surrounding the D40+ and no equivalent uproar about the V40+ (at least in the English-language forums) — as well as the similar naming, and time of release — I was drawn to the wrong conclusion…

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For those reasons it will be fascinating to see how the V40s plays and ALSO what they weigh. I am looking forward to seeing what you find out.

Iskandar, can you bring your electronic balance to PJ Union?

Well for sure your observation makes it clear that the V40 and D40 are not identical, so it's not speculation anymore, we can accept it as fact.

We weighed a couple of each type of ball on Iskandar's balance, and I chucked in a couple of 1-star D40+ balls that I bought last year as well:

Double Fish 3-star V40+2.75g2.76g

DHS 3-star D40+2.73g2.74g

DHS 1-star D40+2.78g2.77g

Would need to weigh more of them to derive some meaningful numbers.

We played with all 3 types, and a club Tibhar 40+ training ball found its way into the mix also. For assessment purposes, that probably wasn't a good approach! We'll try again on Friday evening with just the 3-star V40+ and 3-star D40+.

_________________"Once you get past a certain threshold, everyone's problems are the same: fortifying your island and hiding the heat signature from your fusion reactor." –Doctor Impossible

My D40+ balls ranged from 2.73-2.75. Differences may depend on the scale. But the relative differences are what are interesting and so it is interesting that the D40+ may be slightly lighter than the V40+ from your measurement on the same scale.

If you're measuring down to the 10s of milligrams, yes, one scale might read 2.74g while another reads 2.76. There's also probably batch-to-batch differences. Still this is pretty good.

I couldn't tell the difference when we were hitting around. I spent some time counterlooping with a kid who had to be around 2000, we actually used one of the DHS one stars most of the time. Boy, that was quite an experience... I was actually returning most of what came and looped as good as I got. Tin Arc's pretty good for that, didn't try any of my other bats with different rubbers.

The 3 star where pretty much the same, but when I testes with the one star. The quality of double fish seemed better than DHS. The double fish balls where rounder. (Or at least of the 10 1 star dhs balls there where two that wasn't round, the bounce seemed off) I didn't find that problem with the double fish balls. I don't know about how fast they brake. But if they have similar durability as the dhs balls. Then I'm more than happy. At my club we will buy 4-500 double fish one star to test out during training.

The 3 star where pretty much the same, but when I testes with the one star. The quality of double fish seemed better than DHS. The double fish balls where rounder. (Or at least of the 10 1 star dhs balls there where two that wasn't round, the bounce seemed off) I didn't find that problem with the double fish balls. I don't know about how fast they brake. But if they have similar durability as the dhs balls. Then I'm more than happy. At my club we will buy 4-500 double fish one star to test out during training.

The DHS 1* ABS ball is really weird, and I don't like playing with it at all. It has almost no resemblance that I can feel with the 3* D40+. I was pretty sad when I played with the 1* version (I received it earlier) because I was afraid it would predict horrors for the 3* version. But I like the 3* D40+ very much, it is actually my favorite ball right now.

I checked out the V40+ balls yesterday, I didn't get a chance to play with them, but what stood out was how rough the surface was... it's much rougher than the DHS D40+. The 'sales pitch' from the person selling them was that this makes them more spinny, but I'm not convinced this is necessarily true. Unless a smooth ball actually slips on a rubber, both would start off with the same spin. The rough surface would make them behave a little different in the air though, and also when it contacts the table. Intuitively I'd expect a rough ball to lose spin the in the air more quickly, but also kick harder off the table.

Not necessarily true about the losing spin in the air bit. Boundary layers are weird things, sometimes rough surfaces have less drag than smooth ones. Just something you come across if you have an interest in building small model airplanes.

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