I'm trying to make sense of the 5th grade logic stage and I'm hoping some pros in this can help me!

This is what I'm thinking so far- am I correct? What would you add or subtract?

Language Arts

Writing-Writing With Skill 1

Has anyone done the Creative Writer series offered on WTM website? If so, did you do this at the same time as Writing with Skill or another writing program?

Grammar

?????

I was looking at AG, but it doesn't suggest to start it until 6th grade. I prefer to stay secular in our learning, so Rod and Staff are out, I guess. Any thoughts on Well Ordered Language or Voyages? We will have finished 1st Language Lessons Level 4 by the end of this year, so I'm at a bit of a loss for what my 10yr old daughter should do in 5th grade.

Spelling

Spelling Workout F/G

Keyboard

Keyboarding Without Tears

History

Am I correct that we are going back to reading SOTW1, but this time at a deeper level by including a resource like Kingfisher, timelines, outlines, and narrations?

Math

Math-U-See

Life of Fred

Maybe supplement with a little Singapore for additional word problems

Science

Please share with me your recommendations for a biology program for the logic stage. It should be stated I'm not a science minded gal, so I need all the help I can get- whatever you find to be the most complete.

Languages

My kids will continue with French which they speak fluently, but maybe we'll add Latin. What's your favorite Latin program?

I know everyone has strong opinions, so let me hear them!! I'm feeling a little overwhelmed entering the logic stage. Oh, and I should mention that I'll be also teaching her little brother in 3rd grade next year, so he'll be doing some of the history and science with her. Thanks!

History: No SOTW. You can, of course, but that wasn't the age they were written for. Basically I think if your student is ready for WWS, she's past SOTW. (Although I'd expect she'd still want to listen in to her brother's reading, because fun!)

As for grammar, one of mine did Junior Analytical grammar in 5th grade and my grammar kid did AG in 5th. AG is doable in 5th for a strong grammar student. JAG was a great choice at that age for my STEM focused child. As for Latin, we love Latin for Children because the website support with review games was fun and helpful. My kids also love the quirky end of chapter video segments too.

With science, are you picking Biology because you feel they need Biology in 5th or was that a choice the child made? I would consider doing an interest led year with the 3rd and 5th grader picking science topics they want to pursue. Watch documentaries, do some labs, and just explore for fun.

We mostly followed a classical path to content in the grammar stage, but switched to doing a lot more interest led learning in the logic stage. So in fifth grade, we started doing more unit studies instead of straight up science and history.

But if you want to stay the course in order, it seems like you've got the right idea...

I'd consider taking a year off from grammar. If you've done it for four years now and plan to do AG the following year, just skip it. Really. It'll be fine. That's beyond plenty.

You can go back to SOTW, but there are other options. A lot of people like the Oxford University Press books. Other people use Human Odyssey.

For science, if you want complete and secular for logic stage biology, you probably want Real Science Odyssey's Biology. However, I second the idea that if you have a 3rd grade tag along, you could absolutely go interest led and do something that would split the difference for them. RSO is supposed to be very solidly middle school level, so it would be a bit of a challenge program for a 5th grader. Why not do an Ellen McHenry program with them together. They could do The Brain or The Elements or Botany together (or two of them as each is really a half year thing).

WWS is pretty tough for the average 5th grader. Go as slow as your DC needs and don't push to finish the whole book in a year. (Wordsmith Apprentice is my favorite 5th grade book, for what it's worth.)

If you know you'll use AG, why not JAG this year?

My kids outgrew SOTW by 5th-6th grade. You might look at History Odyssey by Pandia Press to see how it looks without SOTW. Or just pick your own spine and go with it.

While we loved the grammar stage science recommendations in WTM, the logic stage recommendations just didn't fly here. We do more living book science than strict curricula following. If you need it laid out perhaps the Pandia Press one.

For Latin we really thrived with Classical Academic Press products. There are gobs of options out there though.

Agreeing with others that WWS with a 5th grader can be hard. My DD definitely wasn't ready for it at that age. If you want, you could do The Creative Writer instead, and start WWS1 in sixth grade. Doing WWS 1-3 is plenty to get ready for high school. We used English Lessons Through Literature 4, which covered both grammar and writing, and it worked great for us. Plus it was nice to have both of them in the same book, instead of having a bunch of different curricula for one subject.

SOTW was designed for elementary students. It's not really going to be deep enough for an approaching-middle schooler. Like Farrar, we did more interest-led stuff, then spent a year on US history and this year we are doing the history of science.

I can't really recommend science. We did interest-led stuff for that, too. The McHenry units are good. We did the Brain and Botany as kind of a life science year, and I had DD read the Quark Chronicle books (a little below middle school level, but covers life science concepts. There are 3 - Botany, Zoology and Anatomy. They have teaching guides if you want to use them with both kids. The science in them is solid.)

We only ever did Latin lightly, but DD really liked Minimus. If I were to start over, I'd do Galore Park's Latin Prep.

With science, are you picking Biology because you feel they need Biology in 5th or was that a choice the child made? I would consider doing an interest led year with the 3rd and 5th grader picking science topics they want to pursue. Watch documentaries, do some labs, and just explore for fun.

Oooh, this sounds like a fun idea. I've done my best not to let on to my kids that I'm not science minded, but thus far they don't seem to be very science minded either (we're a family of dancers, artists, and athletes). I feel intimidated by the thought of science being so open, but I suspect this could help foster a greater appreciation and maybe even love for science in them. Would you suggest just looking through our science encyclopedias and such and finding things that appeal to them, and then building on that? Or something else?

History: No SOTW. You can, of course, but that wasn't the age they were written for. Basically I think if your student is ready for WWS, she's past SOTW. (Although I'd expect she'd still want to listen in to her brother's reading, because fun!)

We do integrated science, so no help there.

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Thank you for mentioning WWS being challenging for 5th because this led me to find a thread discussing this very idea. I'm now going to save it for 6th grade. But now I'm trying to figure out what direction to go with our writing. I'm going between doing the Creative Writing or using ISW in hopes of better preparing her for WWS. Ideally I'd like to just use ISW Ancient Times writing program, that way we could integrate History and writing and I think that would be more interesting for her, but the ISW site says that you need to first do their complete program first. Maybe I could integrate both? I don't want to overload her.

I see that back in October SWB stated in a thread that Advanced Language Lessons will be printing soon, so I too am going to plan on using that for 5th.

You can go back to SOTW, but there are other options. A lot of people like the Oxford University Press books. Other people use Human Odyssey.

For science, if you want complete and secular for logic stage biology, you probably want Real Science Odyssey's Biology. However, I second the idea that if you have a 3rd grade tag along, you could absolutely go interest led and do something that would split the difference for them. RSO is supposed to be very solidly middle school level, so it would be a bit of a challenge program for a 5th grader. Why not do an Ellen McHenry program with them together. They could do The Brain or The Elements or Botany together (or two of them as each is really a half year thing).

Thank you so much for your input. Since posting this thread I've now come across several people mentioning Oxford University Press books and Human Odyssey. I think that's the direction we'll go.

Thank you the science suggestions. I'll look over them, plus sit with the idea of doing interest led (which currently totally intimidates me).

Thank you all for the suggestions. Keep them coming! I live in Morocco and I don't have much of a homeschooling support system here (really, none at all), so all these suggestions are invaluable as I spend countless hours trying to sort through websites. I already have a much clearer picture of the direction to go....next up is learning to implement them from a perspective of the logic stage- I feel just as intimidated by logic as I did when I started homeschooling 3 yrs ago! Thanks for your support.

I will disagree about SOTW, and say you're absolutely fine using SOTW as a middle school spine, adding to it as SWB suggests in TWTM. If you already have that, and you're in Morocco, go on with it as planned. Many people wouldn't even consider doing history in first grade anyway, so if you're of that mindset, you'd still be using SOTW in 5th grade. I think SOTW is leagues better than history you would get in the government schools. You're just fine to use it for 5th and third grader. Some of the activities from the guide might be too young for the 5th grader, though, depending on your family style.

Maybe you could consider doing a year of Latin in place of grammar this year.

You might like elemental science. I definitely want a curriculum rather than the way TWTM lays out.

Thank you so much for your input. Since posting this thread I've now come across several people mentioning Oxford University Press books and Human Odyssey. I think that's the direction we'll go.

Thank you the science suggestions. I'll look over them, plus sit with the idea of doing interest led (which currently totally intimidates me).

Remember that interest led doesn't have to mean without a curriculum. That's one of the reasons I suggested the Ellen McHenry programs - they're very guided. But there are others that you could use as well. TOPS makes great task cards you could use with that age for easy experiments (it's all household stuff). There are some great single topic programs out there as well depending on interests. Or you could just read books. The Scientists in the Field series is great for fifth grade and up and a younger kid might enjoy them as read alouds.

Oooh, this sounds like a fun idea. I've done my best not to let on to my kids that I'm not science minded, but thus far they don't seem to be very science minded either (we're a family of dancers, artists, and athletes). I feel intimidated by the thought of science being so open, but I suspect this could help foster a greater appreciation and maybe even love for science in them. Would you suggest just looking through our science encyclopedias and such and finding things that appeal to them, and then building on that? Or something else?

Truthfully there is NOTHING wrong with admitting to your children that you don't know it all. It can actually be a great life lesson. You can share with them that you don't feel comfortable with science and don't know much about it and would like to learn along with them. As them to help you out if you run into areas you struggle. Kids frequently love to help out their parent and may work even harder to learn it so they can teach you. Seriously. And teaching helps significantly with learning.

I agree with up thread, interest led doesn't have to mean with no structured material to follow. If you need something to follow along with that you can all do together, I agree the Ellen McHenry stuff might work well. Show them the topics and see if there is something they really want to pursue.

Something I am discovering about the logic stage is that my daughter is growing into the typical age characteristics slowly. She did not suddenly morph into a student who thinks more abstractly or who is more argumentative, at the beginning of 5th grade. Every kid is different and I suspect much has to do with the timing of puberty. My Dd's 5th grade year, while certainly a step up from 4th grade, was really still late elementary or grammar stage, because that's the child I had. 6th has been much more logic stage-ish in terms of how Dd seems to think and relate.

Eta: We too go interest led on science. WP's Equine Science has been a hit here. Also Quark Chronicles as a fun supplement, RA.

Something I am discovering about the logic stage is that my daughter is growing into the typical age characteristics slowly. She did not suddenly morph into a student who thinks more abstractly or who is more argumentative, at the beginning of 5th grade. Every kid is different and I suspect much has to do with the timing of puberty. My Dd's 5th grade year, while certainly a step up from 4th grade, was really still late elementary or grammar stage, because that's the child I had. 6th has been much more logic stage-ish in terms of how Dd seems to think and relate.

This is such an important note, ScoutTN. Both my kids began typical school here in Morocco at the ages they did and the grade they did because they were the only native English speakers in their class and anything less for them in English would have been a bore and they were young enough that they picked up French quickly. But, my Dd's birthday is August 31, so she is often a whole year younger than other kids in her same grade equivalent. My son's bday is August 7, so he's in a similar situation too. I often have to remind myself of this when there are things they are struggling with. Thanks to everyone's input here I'm really starting to grasp what a transition year 5th is going to be and with that comes a great mix of grammar and logic stages, and that maybe with my Dd her transition will sit heavier on the grammar stage end of the scale. Thanks!

Another thing we loved for science was doing the Dino 101 MOOC from Coursera. It was a lot of fun and we read a lot of middle school level dinosaur books to go with it, which worked well. A lot of animal anatomy and evolution and so forth were covered in there. I think there are some other good accessible to middle schooler MOOCs you could do for a parent who is nervous about winging it with science.

History- we used SOTW for the first cycle, then switched to K12 Human Industry books.

Grammar - you could skip a year (although do keep reviewing on occasion), or you could email Pace Hill Press and see if they will still send you the first 12 weeks or so of ALL beta version. We used that for a good portion of 5th grade (although maybe the real deal will be published by then.)

LA- we started WWS at the end of 5th, but I wish we had started a bit sooner and then let lessons take two weeks as needed, maybe alternating lessons with Kilgallon's Sentence Composing. Now in 6th writing ability is starting to pick up, but it would be nice to have a bit more flex-time in the schedule.

Typing- we used BBC's Dance Mat Typing, then I just had then occasionally type up a finish draft of some of the WWS assignments. This year they have an online Spanish class, so typing speed is picking up.

Latin- did GSWL in 4th, mostly orally. In 5th and 6th we've done the Big Book of Lively Latin books. In either case I recommend using AnkiApp, which is a free flash card program. I've been learning along with my dc. Mostly.

Writing - we are using Writers in Residence this year, as a break before WWS next year. I don't really care for it though and can't wait to return to the classical approach. DD likes it well enough. I wish I had heard of Wordsmith Apprentice that someone else suggested - much more affordable!

I also bought the little outlining workbook that SWB recommends and we did that at the beginning of this year.

Grammar - we took the year off. FLL provided a great foundation and the above mentioned writing program has some grammar integrated. I like the looks of the IEW grammar. (the name is escaping me)

History - we do SOTW as a family, with the logic stage extensions. TWTM lays out the instructions for this very well. I bought the Kingfisher book and also Human Odyssey, though she really doesn't care for HO.

I like Memoria Press for starting Latin. I would start with Latina Christiana I for a 5th grader then move onto First Form the following year.

For history, you don't have to read SOTW again, but you can. The main reading and outlining will come from the encyclopedia. And then a lot of extra reading from library books and occasionally some original sources work. Do timelines, mapwork, and summary writing as well.

For science, Memoria Press has some good stuff I like. Their one series is not secular, the Exploring the HIstory of (biology, chemistry, etc.) are not completely secular. They discuss the beliefs of scientists in a higher power whenever they can. But they aren't in your face IMO. But their own materials like the Astronomy and The Bird unit are really good. We really got a lot from their bird unit our 5th grade Biology year. On top of the bird unit my dd used a regular public school text book for biology. We got it online for like ten dollars and it was very in depth. She did experiments with her co-op class from it and we did the bird activities at home.

Thank you for the excellent recommendations. I am preparing for my first 5th grade year for my daughter, and I am freed up by hearing about the suggestions for grammar (it will give me time to finish her 4th grade curriculum) and for not expecting her to do the WWS in 5th.

A few of you mentioned you live overseas. We live in SE Asia and my kids are learning Chinese (we speak English as our first language) as well as starting to learn Latin. Any ideas for a pace for learning both Latin and another language? Any things you would definitely do or not do?

I wanted to add to the chorus that SoTW can be used for 5th grade, the WTM academy uses it with add-ons. I'm using it with my own 5th grader next year.

My 5th grader will be using FLL4 as we started grammar later. In your shoes I'd either - skip grammar, go with the new Advanced Langaguage Lessons that is releasing soon or use Jr. Analytical Grammar. I ordered Well-Ordered Language but didn't like it.

I'm still not certain on science, I re-upped our Mystery Science subscription so she will probably continue that 1x a wk or so and then I'm thinking I might pair her with her older brother for some McHenry books. (along with gardening, nature study etc.) Dd has enjoyed Mystery Science this year and they do have a fair amount of biology units, you can try it free for a year if it looks like it might be a good fit.

She is doing Writing and Rhetoric Narrative 1&2 this year, she did Treasured Conversations this year, so this is a step backwards in a way but I think it will be a good fit for where she is at. I'm looking at *maybe* doing WWS in 6 or 7 with her, we'll see.

I second the Oxford University Press books. My students loved them and we put together our own Book of Centuries with timelines, key words, people, places and maps. OUP is good if you kid likes to read and loves history. OUP can be found on amazon. My class did Ancient Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece. My own kid wants to add all the Asian cultures too. He is a voracious reader though. 3 books would be enough for most kids. I would buy used.

A less time consuming and reading intensive route would be Human Odyssey.

We mostly followed a classical path to content in the grammar stage, but switched to doing a lot more interest led learning in the logic stage. So in fifth grade, we started doing more unit studies instead of straight up science and history.

But if you want to stay the course in order, it seems like you've got the right idea...

I'd consider taking a year off from grammar. If you've done it for four years now and plan to do AG the following year, just skip it. Really. It'll be fine. That's beyond plenty.

You can go back to SOTW, but there are other options. A lot of people like the Oxford University Press books. Other people use Human Odyssey.

For science, if you want complete and secular for logic stage biology, you probably want Real Science Odyssey's Biology. However, I second the idea that if you have a 3rd grade tag along, you could absolutely go interest led and do something that would split the difference for them. RSO is supposed to be very solidly middle school level, so it would be a bit of a challenge program for a 5th grader. Why not do an Ellen McHenry program with them together. They could do The Brain or The Elements or Botany together (or two of them as each is really a half year thing).