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*bump*
Interesting... I don't know if this has anything to do with anything or if someone mentioned it...
...but the swastica was supposed to represent the sun (ages ago) nd '...u glitter in the sun, you're as pretty as a swastica...' if that makes any sence...
*feels retarded,leaves*

That's not retarded, the Swastika was indeed originally a symbol for the sun, I mentioned it briefly in the first post:-

This is taken from a ritual drinking cup engraved by ancient Mississipian tribes, thought to be in relation to the "Great Sun" chief.

But I am aware it has been linked to the sun by other cultures as well. In addition to the "In the sun" reference, there is also "see a new beginning rise behind the sun" in Running To The Edge Of The World. Thank you for the post!

Of course all of this comes together but he could also be meaning that she is a stand out image in his mind,a danger to him because she conjures up all this emotion in him both bad and good and that makes her dangerous,but only for him because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.Just like any sign.It's what you allow it to mean to you.

The article above has a section on "Hector" a horse on the Jantzen Beach Carousel, Portland, Oregon, which is decorated with an array of swastikas.

The article states the following:-

"... At the time this horse was carved, the swastika still had the positive symbolism that it has had for over 3,000 years. Long before the Nazi's distorted it, the swastika was used by cultures around the world to symbolize prosperity, power, strength and good luck. It has been found in ancient Greece, especially at Troy, and was widely used in China, Persia, Japan, India, Europe and North and South America.

The word 'swastika' comes from ancient Sanskrit - 'su', meaning 'well', and 'asti', meaning 'being'. Not until the mid-1930s, well after this carousel horse was carved, did the swastika take on a negative connotation. (Until 1933, the American 45th Infantry Division used the swastika on its shoulder patches.) The Nazi part adopted the swastika in 1919 as the symbol of their organization and only with the rise of Hitler's power did the symbol take on a negative meaning. The Allies banned the symbol from Germany in 1945 after Germany's defeat in World War II.

Shortly after the end of the war this design on Hector was removed and forgotten. It wasn't until 1995 during the carousel restoration project that the symbol was rediscovered and restored to its original design. Although the designs on Hector find their inspiration in Native American art, the swastika caused a negative public reaction and the decision was made to remove Hector from the carousel permanently. Ironically, the reason that keeps Hector from riding the magnificent carousel he once called home is also the reason that makes him so speical - he is definitely one of a kind. Some suggest that Hector may one day find a place within the Smithsonian Museum in Washington D.C. ..." [Jantzen Beach SuperStore, 2006]

Re: Pretty As A ? / $ - Tangential References

I'm impressed by people's creativity and imagination, but I think the lyrics were meant to be taken at face-value. That's what this era has been focused on: Manson's humanity and stepping aside from elaborate metaphors for a minute. This is my interpretation of the song...

"When I see you in the sun, you're as pretty as a swastika"

When in clear objective view, the woman he's with is oppressive, harsh, damaging, and he continues to be attracted.

"Take you down, down from the inside"

In true Vampiric fashion, he's a person who hurts others, and by inside he's talking about emotions.

"I want to smash into your face..."

Anger towards the oppressive

"...drown between your legs."

Sexual attraction by 'serving' her

"I'd die for your sins if you don't kill me while I'm trying"

This continues the 'serving' that I was talking about, except he reveals that it's taking a toll on him...

Re: Pretty As A ? / $ - Tangential References

The way I approach any analysis of culture, is that there is no right or wrong answer. The things I've identified here (I can't speak for others) were not written because I feel they are implicit in the lyrics or intent of the song, but rather because they are noteworthy as literally being "tangential" to the original content. Were we always to take every song lyric or aesthetic choice in art as literal, no one would ever look for anything. Art should never be taken at face value, because how much value can you put on a face? All faces conceal something, and I like to know the truth, even if it is the one I seek out for myself.

So in this case, Marilyn Manson may well have simply intended to convey the lyrics in the manner which you have laid them out, but I was interested in the fact that there were a multitude of ideas and avenues down which the thematic could be taken.

Re: Pretty As A ? / $ - Tangential References

>> So in this case, Marilyn Manson may well have simply intended to convey the lyrics in the manner which you have laid them out, but I was interested in the fact that there were a multitude of ideas and avenues down which the thematic could be taken. <<

Then thing about that though is that you become an artist as well because you are adding creative input to what wasn't there. That's why I like to read great, big, in-depth analysis like these because it's people scrambling for connections and making things fit. I just disagree that's it's what MM intended to present, but it's all good.

Well sure, it's all subjective to the individual. I should add that I don't necessarily listen to the song and think "Ah, Marilyn Manson must be singing about American planes that used to have Swastikas on them and a song by Primal Scream", it's just nice to be able to create a web of culture spanning from one theme. That isn't to say I disregard the original intent, I still maintain that the quote pertaining to Leni Riefenstahl was the initial phrase to inspire the song, but then as the person who identified that in the first place, I would. Still, going a little further and looking for other things is fun.

Why in the name of all that is unholy this hasn't occurred to me (or anyone else for that matter) before is beyond me, but nonetheless, it was the first thing to come into my head this morning when I woke up, and I was excited to share it. The second track from Antichrist Superstar, is of course The Beautiful People, a song about how physicality is viewed and acted upon in society. Pretty As A Swastika also, is the second track from The High End Of Low, and features, as you'll easily ascertain, a similar thematic, concerning not how society sees and describes beauty, but how Manson does. What occurred to me today was the significance of the following lyric:-

"Capitalism has made it this way, old-fashioned fascism will take it away"

C A P I T A L I S M --- $ / F A S C I S M --- 卐

"Hey you, what do you see?" --- "I see you in the sun"
"Something beautiful and something free" --- "You're as pretty as a Swastika"

Evident parallels arise between the "voyeurism" of body fascism, how the individual perceives a subject in comparison to how society does, and further dualities between beauty/pretty and freedom/fascism. Furthermore, Manson enquires as to what "you" see in The Beautiful People, and keeping in mind as ever that --- I AM YOU --- he then tells us what he sees, not only in the latter song, but also at the infamous MTV performance of the former.

There is something a bit irrelevant that I would like to share, and this seemed the most appropriate existing thread to do so.

I made a small research on the swastika and discovered that its other name (so to speak) is Fylfot, which in Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse means "four-footed" or "many footed". Looking at the swastika as we know it (if it's right-facing for example), its arms suggest a clockwise rotation:

However, if we view them as simplified feet, then their movement is respectively counter clock-wise. In this train of thought, the swastika appears as a symbol of dualistic nature, much like the double cross. What is more interesting, is that I found that I'm not the only one who draws comparisons between these two symbols, though in different ways...

Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, on the April 6, 1941 edition of his radio program The Catholic Hour, not only compared the Cross of Christ with the swastika, but also implied that siding with fascism was a "double-crossing" of Christianity.

And of course, there is a lot more to this symbol, its meanings and applications in different times and cultures, which suggests even more ways to look at it and make connections to Manson's work. There are also more intriguing details I have found during my research, which I intend to continue sooner or later, so this was a rather basic observation I hope you enjoy. Thank you everyone for your posts too, they were very interesting.

Last edited by Procrastinator; 03-04-2010 at 01:13 AM.
Reason: ignorance