tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.

BTW insight practices have been credited by some scholors as being able to take us up to the first two levels not just the first.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.

And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem, but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Brizzy wrote:However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.

Maybe, but then that certainly does not shoot down the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type practice. And I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.

Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?

When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.

Brizzy wrote:Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?

When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.

Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Brizzy wrote:I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.

You have not shown anything, making no real argument to even respond to. You certainly do not understand the vipassana traditions. I am waiting for a real argument to respond to here.

You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.

The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.

tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.

The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.

Goodness. Commentaries are important, but are hardly the final word on things, but that does not mean that they also cannot get things right.

The point is, if you are going to claim that Buddhaghosa is not reflecting the sutta teachings accurately, simply claiming that is so is meaningless. The Brizzy subtext here is the vipassana traditions have gotten it wrong, but he really has not shown that he understands what the these traditions teach, which means he cannot show they have gotten it wrong vis a vis the suttas.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?

The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.

The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.

My understanding of the purity/perfection of sati in Jhana is that sati has already been, from the outset, present as a factor in some degree, developed outside of meditation, but it is obscured by other jhanic factors. It becomes more prevailent as other jhanic factors drop away. It's the same with other factors (like equanimity) which are present to some degree, but not considered "jhanic factors" until unobscured.

The meditator in third jhana is also said to be mindful and discerning, which points to another pair of frequently conjoined mental functions. Mindfulness (sati), in this context, means the remembrance of the meditation object, the constant bearing of the object in mind without allowing it to float away. Discernment (sampajañña) is an aspect of wisdom or understanding which scrutinizes the object and grasps its nature free from delusion. Though these two factors were already present even in the first two jhanas, they are first mentioned only in connection with the third since it is here that their efficacy becomes manifest. The two are needed particularly to avoid a return to rapture. Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded, again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture, its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment (Dhs. A.219). To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana is the task of mindfulness and discernment.

Of course for this to work, mindfulness needs to be established in the context of the eightfold path. The first seven factors of the eighfold path serve as "supports and requisite conditions" for right concentration. See The Great Forty

tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.

And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem,

I agree. Once you're in the stream there's no getting back out - you are on your way to arahantship and I don't see how Jhana is going to be a problem at that point. I hardly think a stream enterer is thinking "oh shoot, I really need to get to work on Jhana now."

but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.

Indeed. This is where I actually begin to favor the Abhidhammic explanations. Meaning I'd look in terms of "right concentration" as a mental factor that would naturally arise for the rather than something that needs to be deliberately practiced.

I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.

Kenshou wrote:I think that's a possibility. Jhana is only one of the four things that fall under right concentration. #3 & 4 look like the sort of things that would develop in the process of mindfulness practice weather or not someone chooses to engage in jhana practice specifically.

Interestingly this small anthology gives another definition of Sammasamadhi

Noble right concentration

"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."

— MN 117

it is at the begining of the sutta quoted.

although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages

(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

(4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"These are the four developments of concentration."

— AN 4.41

also #3 shows concentration can lead to mindfulness & allertness (satisampajanna)

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?

The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.

The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

But sati is not satipatthana. sati is recollection/awareness - satipatthana is something more...................."SATIPATTHANAAnother important Pali term frequently encountered concerningmeditation is satipatthana. There is no definition of satipatthana, butits practice is similar to that of sati –– basically to contemplate body,feeling, mind and Dhamma.Satipatthana comes from the words sati and patthana orupatthana. Patthana or upatthana has been variously translated asfoundations, uprisings, applications, establishment, etc.. However,these translations do not throw any light on the difference betweensati and satipatthana.Intense state of recollection. When we investigate the suttas we findthat there is a difference between sati and satipatthana. As explainedearlier, sati means recollection. Now patthana possibly comes fromtwo words, pa and thana. Pa means ‘setting forth’, and also impliesgoing beyond. Thus it can also mean extreme, intense. Thana meansstanding still, and can also mean a state or condition. Thussatipatthana probably means an intense state of recollection. Thistranslation of satipatthana seems to agree with the suttas, to which Ishall now refer......................."

having skimmed through that document and reading your quote it certainly gives me pause ...

sampajanna is mindfulness??

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."