It's great fun here on APUG when US members discuss the S word which they won't use - Socialism. It's time they realised the rest of the world treats it's citizens far better with free health care, welfare benefits etc. Just what are they afraid of ?

Ian

Diapositivo

03-27-2012, 03:04 PM

I suspect some Kodak employees will change their mind about Obamacare and the more general idea of an universal health coverage European style, even though, from what I could understand, Obamacare is really not a NHS solution, but a different attempt to reach a broad coverage within the current framework of the US health system based on private insurance schemes.

What many US people don't realise is that the US system is quite an anomaly in the Western world. In most Western countries there is no communism (not even traces of it) but there is a NHS, and the idea of universal coverage is quite obvious. That is financed largely by taxes. This doesn't mean that the rest of the Western world is right and that the US are wrong, but it certainly means that a NHS doesn't make of a country a Communist one.

The debate over a broader coverage of health care and the way to finance seems to have fallen prey of an ideological hysteria, some kind of a "domino effect theory": you let them do a NHS system, and before you realize it you find yourself waving a red booklet... that kind of stuff.

Said hopefully without polemic ;)

Fabrizio

PS When Ferrania closed doors, all its employees, past and present, just like any other person resident in Italy, had complete health care coverage for life. The idea of saving to buy health care is totally extraneous to most Westerners.

jglass

03-27-2012, 03:05 PM

It's great fun here on APUG when US members discuss the S word which they won't use - Socialism. It's time they realised the rest of the world treats it's citizens far better with free health care, welfare benefits etc. Just what are they afraid of ?

Ian

Exactly, Ian and Diapositivo. It's just weird here now. Of course, the fact is we are all socialists to one degree or another, but a very thin slice of the American right either doesn't really know it or will not admit it. (Famous and ACTUAL "Tea party" protest sign last summer : "Keep the Government out of my Medicare!"). Some of these, especially the elites on the right, simply want to roll the clock back to 1920 or earlier, when the gods of money ruled without all that messy stuff about workers and others having rights to a decent life or back to the 50's when communists - actual communists, not the normal folks called that today -- could be persecuted openly. Other portions of the right, usually the less-informed and, shall we say, more prejudiced, use the term "socialism" to mean "people we don't like." It's really pointless to argue with them. They know what they know and facts have nothing to do with it.

Also, as an espresso-drinking, welfare-supporting, national healthcare supporting, Obama-loving, card-carrying liberal, I love Tri-x, one of the great pinnacles of capitalist thought! I guess I'm just a mess of contradictions.

georg16nik

03-27-2012, 03:06 PM

It's great fun here on APUG when US members discuss the S word which they won't use - Socialism. It's time they realised the rest of the world treats it's citizens far better with free health care, welfare benefits etc. Just what are they afraid of ?

Ian
Ian,
They might have already be running on experimental form of socialism..
and what if the future Kodak films will be made entirely in communist China. :confused:

CGW

03-27-2012, 03:09 PM

CGW your BS just isn't worth dignifying. I decided to do other APUG members the courtesy of not quoting you. You just need to go do some homework.

Looks like another "gotcha" moment, keithwms. Tell me George Mason U and Cowen aren't happily swimming in Koch money. Did my homework. Sorry it produced some inconvenient truths.

CGW

03-27-2012, 03:19 PM

Exactly, Ian and Diapositivo. It's just weird here now. Of course, the fact is we are all socialists to one degree or another, but a very thin slice of the American right either doesn't really know it or will not admit it. (Famous and ACTUAL "Tea party" protest sign last summer : "Keep the Government out of my Medicare!"). Some of these, especially the elites on the right, simply want to roll the clock back to 1920 or earlier, when the gods of money ruled without all that messy stuff about workers and others having rights to a decent life or back to the 50's when communists - actual communists, not the normal folks called that today -- could be persecuted openly. Other portions of the right, usually the less-informed and, shall we say, more prejudiced, use the term "socialism" to mean "people we don't like." It's really pointless to argue with them. They know what they know and facts have nothing to do with it.

Also, as an espresso-drinking, welfare-supporting, national healthcare supporting, Obama-loving, card-carrying liberal, I love Tri-x, one of the great pinnacles of capitalist thought! I guess I'm just a mess of contradictions.

Amen. Thomas Frank's "Pity the Billionaire" gives a look-in on the plutocrat agenda. Funny how myopic the blowhard critics of "socialism" are. Funny how they can't grasp that progressive ideas are the foundation of what safety net exists in the U.S. Let's see, unemployment insurance, workers' compensation, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, food and product safety, environmental protection...

Funny, too, how tranquil things are in the socialist-infested, publicly-funded heath care-serviced People's Republic of Canada. Film prices aren't bad either. Neither are the labs.

wblynch

03-27-2012, 03:39 PM

It's great fun here on APUG when US members discuss the S word which they won't use - Socialism. It's time they realised the rest of the world treats it's citizens far better with free health care, welfare benefits etc. Just what are they afraid of ?

Ian

Ian, tha majority of us know that and are in favor of moving forward.

There is a VERY loud and well financed minority that believes they are the majority that will do anything and say anything and kill anyone to move backwards. They even use terms like, 'Take our Country Back".

The 1840's is noit far enough back for them

They like the 1620's where Corporations owned Colonies and people were hanged, drowned, branded, and enslaved to keep them in line.

They forget we had a revolution and later a civil war, which they lost, to get away from that thinking.

But they do not respond to logic or intelligent deduction. They would still believe the world is flat if it meant more profit for the wealthiest 1%.

Photo Engineer

03-27-2012, 03:57 PM

I have an American friend living in the UK at the present time. He has become a citizen. He does not think much of the medical system there, either from the treatment POV or the waiting list for other than simple problems. I have had similar comments from Canadian friends.

Basically, the best health care in the entire world is available in the US. Nowhere else. This is why many rulers from the mid and far east come to the US when they have medical problems. In fact, there were some who claim that Socialism kills the quality of many "benefits" or "entitlements" such as Medical and Dental care.

IDK. I just know that the care here is pretty good and very accessible to most everyone. (Even if you can't pay you can get emergency care)

Yeah, go ahead and beat on me, but ask yourself whether the King of Saudi Arabia would go to the UK or to the US for treatment?

Really? Like what? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious what you are referring to.

Well, the blue dog democrats generally favor "traditional" values when it comes to social matters. I hope we won't get into which specific values, and what is traditional about them, the thread will get even messier!

Personally I have no tolerance for government intrusion in private matters, which makes me a liberal to my conservative friends. I also have no faith in the ability of the government to run my finances, which makes me a conservative to my liberal friends. So I usually can't stand to watch MSNBC or Fox. I seem most at peace with the libertarians, although I have yet to encounter a libertarian candidate for whom I could vote in a national election. Paul is amusing, but... yeah, I'll just be voting for the lesser of two evils again, it seems. In American election parlance, I am a swing voter. And right now I'd like to swing a giant wrecking ball at the whole lot of them over in DC.

David A. Goldfarb

03-27-2012, 04:32 PM

Let's keep it to Kodak, folks. Take the political discussion to the soapbox, please. No, Kodak doesn't exist in a vacuum, but the rest of it is off topic for APUG.

adam hirsch

03-27-2012, 04:38 PM

Exactly, Ian and Diapositivo. It's just weird here now. Of course, the fact is we are all socialists to one degree or another, but a very thin slice of the American right either doesn't really know it or will not admit it. (Famous and ACTUAL "Tea party" protest sign last summer : "Keep the Government out of my Medicare!"). Some of these, especially the elites on the right, simply want to roll the clock back to 1920 or earlier, when the gods of money ruled without all that messy stuff about workers and others having rights to a decent life or back to the 50's when communists - actual communists, not the normal folks called that today -- could be persecuted openly. Other portions of the right, usually the less-informed and, shall we say, more prejudiced, use the term "socialism" to mean "people we don't like." It's really pointless to argue with them. They know what they know and facts have nothing to do with it.

Also, as an espresso-drinking, welfare-supporting, national healthcare supporting, Obama-loving, card-carrying liberal, I love Tri-x, one of the great pinnacles of capitalist thought! I guess I'm just a mess of contradictions.

I apologized for getting "way off topic;" however, since everyone else here, seems to want to do the same..............let's take all the "labels" out of the argument (liberal, conservative, socialist, communist, etc...) Let me throw out only one issue....without labels.......I believe that every citizen who's in the U.S. (legally, of course,) should pay the SAME Federal income tax rate. Whether you earn $10,000 per year or $10,000,000 per year, it should not matter...you pay the same RATE...the same PERCENTAGE. That seems FAIR, doesn't it??????? That's the type of government I want. That's the type of U.S.A. I want to live in. Does that make me a hate-mongering, right-wing, extremist??? Does that desire make me SO different from all of you who live outside the U.S.? Am I to be despised, bc I think it's fair we all pay the same tax rate, regardless of income? The left preaches "fairness." Well, I agree :) That's about as fair as they get. Maybe 15%? Maybe 20%? but, EVERY person pays the EXACT same rate. The reason? If I make $200,000/year, and I pay (for arguments sake) a 33% Federal tax rate, why on gd's Earth should the gov use my hard-earned tax dollars to "compensate" for someone who only pays, let's say a 20% rate on lesser income? OR, why should the govt TAKE from me 33%, yet 49% of the U.S. population pay 0%????????????????????? I know what many, here, will say in response: "Someone who makes only $10,000/year "can't afford to pay taxes at the same rate as someone earning $10,000,000. Their standard of living is so poor! Someone making 10,000,000/yr can pay 35% and NOT even miss it! They have so much money, they SHOULD pay more. Those greedy rich people SHOULD pay a higher rate (on "moral" grounds.) etc, etc........."
I have a hunch that 99% of everyone living outside the U.S. and 60% of those living inside the U.S. will disagree with me on this, for me, foundational issue. Because it's not "fair." Not fair to the poor, the downtrodden, the "victims of society." I'm Jewish, and if society ever approched me to offer me "reparations" bc my ancestors were killed in the Holocaust, I would be highly offended and would reject it outright. Not that this would ever happen, but, I would NEVER accept "compensation" of any kind-monetary or otherwise, bc I'm Jewish and my relatives were killed by the Nazis. I don't deserve it-I wasn't killed. My point being, I'm proud to work hard, support my family, raise my kids the best I can on the income I make (and, yes, I only made $40,000 last year with two kids.) I don't want hand-outs from the government, whether it be welfare, or free medical care, or subsidies. I want to earn it myself. I get greater pride from NOT taking hand-outs and I teach my children the same. I EXPECT to pay the same Fed tax rate as someone making 500,000/yr, and I would love it if this were true. I support my family Ok, and if I need to I'll work a second or third job, before I have money given to me from the govt, which was taken from someone making more than I do (on the basis that they "can afford to contribute more.")

Whether you agree with me on this issue, I believe a lot of the other "liberal-conservative" yardstick issues derive from my above issue: do we "take" from those who "have/can" and give (through govt programs) to those who "have not/can't)"? If you believe, based on your set of morals, values that a society SHOULD, then maybe you allign yourself more with stereotypical liberal, leftist, socialst ways of seeing things...conversely, if you believe a society should NOT, then, maybe you align yourself with what some, here, see as "arch conservative"
I'm going to stop with the off-topic stuff, now. Sorry to disturb the thread topic. Just that so many others continued on, after I stopped, I felt compelled. I'm done :)

On topic I wish I could afford 11X14 Tech Pan with some Azo paper.:):):)

CGW

03-27-2012, 04:38 PM

Let's keep it to Kodak, folks. Take the political discussion to the soapbox, please. No, Kodak doesn't exist in a vacuum, but the rest of it is off topic for APUG.

OK, sticks back on the ice.

Did anyone see anywhere any reference or press release concerning the OP's second-hand citation of this Kodak employee's speech on the future of film?

adam hirsch

03-27-2012, 04:39 PM

Let's keep it to Kodak, folks. Take the political discussion to the soapbox, please. No, Kodak doesn't exist in a vacuum, but the rest of it is off topic for APUG.

Sorry, I just posted, before I saw your comment. I'm done. No more politics. I promise.

Adam

CGW

03-27-2012, 04:42 PM

I apologized for getting "way off topic;" however, since everyone else here, seems to want to do the same..............let's take all the "labels" out of the argument (liberal, conservative, socialist, communist, etc...) Let me throw out only one issue....without labels.......I believe that every citizen who's in the U.S. (legally, of course,) should pay the SAME Federal income tax rate. Whether you earn $10,000 per year or $10,000,000 per year, it should not matter...you pay the same RATE...the same PERCENTAGE. That seems FAIR, doesn't it??????? That's the type of government I want. That's the type of U.S.A. I want to live in. Does that make me a hate-mongering, right-wing, extremist??? Does that desire make me SO different from all of you who live outside the U.S.? Am I to be despised, bc I think it's fair we all pay the same tax rate, regardless of income? The left preaches "fairness." Well, I agree :) That's about as fair as they get. Maybe 15%? Maybe 20%? but, EVERY person pays the EXACT same rate. The reason? If I make $200,000/year, and I pay (for arguments sake) a 33% Federal tax rate, why on gd's Earth should the gov use my hard-earned tax dollars to "compensate" for someone who only pays, let's say a 20% rate on lesser income? OR, why should the govt TAKE from me 33%, yet 49% of the U.S. population pay 0%????????????????????? I know what many, here, will say in response: "Someone who makes only $10,000/year "can't afford to pay taxes at the same rate as someone earning $10,000,000. Their standard of living is so poor! Someone making 10,000,000/yr can pay 35% and NOT even miss it! They have so much money, they SHOULD pay more. Those greedy rich people SHOULD pay a higher rate (on "moral" grounds.) etc, etc........."
I have a hunch that 99% of everyone living outside the U.S. and 60% of those living inside the U.S. will disagree with me on this, for me, foundational issue. Because it's not "fair." Not fair to the poor, the downtrodden, the "victims of society." I'm Jewish, and if society ever approched me to offer me "reparations" bc my ancestors were killed in the Holocaust, I would be highly offended and would reject it outright. Not that this would ever happen, but, I would NEVER accept "compensation" of any kind-monetary or otherwise, bc I'm Jewish and my relatives were killed by the Nazis. I don't deserve it-I wasn't killed. My point being, I'm proud to work hard, support my family, raise my kids the best I can on the income I make (and, yes, I only made $40,000 last year with two kids.) I don't want hand-outs from the government, whether it be welfare, or free medical care, or subsidies. I want to earn it myself. I get greater pride from NOT taking hand-outs and I teach my children the same. I EXPECT to pay the same Fed tax rate as someone making 500,000/yr, and I would love it if this were true. I support my family Ok, and if I need to I'll work a second or third job, before I have money given to me from the govt, which was taken from someone making more than I do (on the basis that they "can afford to contribute more.")

Whether you agree with me on this issue, I believe a lot of the other "liberal-conservative" yardstick issues derive from my above issue: do we "take" from those who "have/can" and give (through govt programs) to those who "have not/can't)"? If you believe, based on your set of morals, values that a society SHOULD, then maybe you allign yourself more with stereotypical liberal, leftist, socialst ways of seeing things...conversely, if you believe a society should NOT, then, maybe you align yourself with what some, here, see as "arch conservative"
I'm going to stop with the off-topic stuff, now. Sorry to disturb the thread topic. Just that so many others continued on, after I stopped, I felt compelled. I'm done :)

On topic I wish I could afford 11X14 Tech Pan with some Azo paper.:):):)

Any chance the mods can delete this frothing and any other non-Kodak discussions, please. This takes the cake.

adam hirsch

03-27-2012, 04:42 PM

I have an American friend living in the UK at the present time. He has become a citizen. He does not think much of the medical system there, either from the treatment POV or the waiting list for other than simple problems. I have had similar comments from Canadian friends.

Basically, the best health care in the entire world is available in the US. Nowhere else. This is why many rulers from the mid and far east come to the US when they have medical problems. In fact, there were some who claim that Socialism kills the quality of many "benefits" or "entitlements" such as Medical and Dental care.

IDK. I just know that the care here is pretty good and very accessible to most everyone. (Even if you can't pay you can get emergency care)

Yeah, go ahead and beat on me, but ask yourself whether the King of Saudi Arabia would go to the UK or to the US for treatment?

Just for the record, I have never, ever once clicked on the little black triangle in any APUG thread.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever clicked on Ignore for any other member or subscriber, no matter how strongly I may have disagreed with their posts.

Ken

adam hirsch

03-27-2012, 04:48 PM

I've apologized for the off-topic posts, and, I've stopped.

Adam

georg16nik

03-27-2012, 04:59 PM

OK, sticks back on the ice.

Did anyone see anywhere any reference or press release concerning the OP's second-hand citation of this Kodak employee's speech on the future of film?
CGW, no such luck.. and my friend Dave is still waiting to hear from Ms. Beverly Pasterczyk.

MaximusM3

03-27-2012, 05:29 PM

Out of curiosity, since I don't feel like shuffling through 25 pages, did the OP ever come back to this thread or did he just drop the bomb and he's watching the show?

Photo Engineer

03-27-2012, 05:37 PM

Kodak announced that it will freeze all pay for one year. There will be no pay raises.

As for Azo paper Adam, Mark Osterman and I are teaching a workshop in Rochester at GEH starting April 2nd. on how to make your own Azo type paper in 3 grades. There is still space available.