Well, Austin, the only writing that I've done is between hybrids where they kiss/make out/make love, but I think that a lot of what's been talked about will apply. I think that they hybrids would be like vampires in a lot of ways, but they'd be a lot warmer than normal vampires, and warmer than humans, too. As far as sex organs and lips, they'd probably have a bit of give to them, but in that respect, they'd be like the same parts on a vampire.

BTW, I'd think that with such give and how strong vampire and hybrid skin is, I'd think that it'd form like a reactive armor against knives, bullets, and even alien weapons (those who know about the manga/anime Guyver will know know what I mean).

Those are my thoughts on this subject for now--anyone have anything else that they'd like to share?

Sorry, corona, gonna have to continue to disagree. I think that vampiric tissue can be flexed - and I'll qualify that, flexed to some unclear extent - by other vampiric tissue because of it's similar properties. This is why I think that.

First, I noticed that you have been relying heavily on BD. I seem to remember you saying (a few months ago) that nothing from BD could be counted on. While I think that some of BD is reliable, it's hard to tell which pieces, and it's very subjective for me - the reliable parts are the parts that sound most reliable. Can't say it any better. I can definitely agree that BD is the most patchy, worst edited, gosh-why-didn't-you-tell-Little Brown-to-stuff-it-for-a-year-until-you-could-make-it-right book of the Saga. So I turned elsewhere.

Now Bella doesn't ever seem to mention vampiric noise much. Maybe these particular vampires are careful around her - certainly we don't see many enthusiastic hugs through Bella's eye - or maybe vampires try to keep the noise down so as to not attract attention. In Twilight she mentions the noise of baseball and am I confused with the movie or did Edward and Emmett smack loudly together during the game in the book? The other place where there should be lots of noise is the practice fighting in Eclipse. But there isn't. Check beginning in Chap 18, Instruction. Bella hears the whistle of the air as Alice moves from place to place but not the loud thud as her body lands on Jasper? The next night she can hear Emmett and Jasper laughing while they wrestle while she is still approaching the clearing? The field should be full of deafening sound - this is a relatively safe place to make noise - but there are no clashes. Maybe they're being a little easy on each other, even though they are prepping for a fight to the death (to their mates' deaths). Let's fast forward to Edward and Victoria on the mountain - they are certainly far enough away from civilization, and earnest enough, to not care about sound. There are crackings and crunches reverberating off the cliff from their footsteps, the crash when Seth is thrown against a cliff wall, metallic snaps and tears from Edward and Victoria as they are blurred together. We don't hear it when Edward places his foot (ungently, I'm sure) against Riley's back, although we can hear Riley's scream. We're told that Riley being ripped to shreds by Seth is a louder sound than Edward catching Victoria and essentially slicing her head off. The only vampiric tissue to vampiric tissue I'm hearing, other than the metallic ripping which seems qualitatively different, is the explosion when Riley's arm and Victoria hit each other at full speed. Again, as Riley's arm is not attached to the rest of him, this may be qualitatively different.

Them's quiet rocks hurling themselves together!

I would argue that EC is the best written of the books generally. Steph's skills were more advanced, and she was still focused on one thing at a time, not like the next year when she was editing BD/FD and trying to salvage her initial plot. Despite the bits where she was forcing herself to write stuff that was foreign to her, like Bella refusing to marry Edward, altogether it is the most cohesive, best paced, most skillful. So I would take it as an authority over BD. Bree is a marvelous book ... but didn't she write that to help the actress play Bree better? While she was on set on EC, thinking ahead to BD, doing the many other things she got sidetracked into ... potentially, not as focused a book, but also a different set of perceptions.

Also, it doesn't make any kind of sense to me that the skin of genitalia would be so remarkably different than elsewhere. Yes, I know it starts out a little different anyway, but you're saying it's really, really different. There is similar skin elsewhere, nipples, and er, places that vampires don't need. Are we suggesting that Bella's nipples are highly flexible while her breasts are immobile? That's really limiting the action.

I think the hardness is partly about it being more firm/dense - although not as much as stone, just closer to stone than to mushy human - and partly about impenetrability. To me, this explains why the vampires are not making as much noise as you would expect of bumping rocks into each other - they give a little to each other. Doubtless this adds to the softness impression. Bella's waking impressions in BD, and I'll concede that this is a well-written part, are that she and Edward are much more the same. His temperature is like hers. They kiss without clicking, and both their lips hold their shape - but this can be a relative issue (they both hold their shape to an equal extent, while both smooshing a little bit, rather than Edward's lips completely holding their shape while gently kissing her smooshy ones). She hugs him - and it's too tight - doesn't this suggest a small amount of squeezing?

Oddly, and perhaps I have had too much RobCrack viewing today, the best example I can think of an item that illustrates changes in density/firmness/hardness is ... the part of the male anatomy most under discussion on this thread. It seems to me at this moment to be the perfect example, honestly. Human is to vampire as, delicately, unaroused is to aroused. Or, alternately and equally to the point (ha ha), human is to vampire as female genitalia is to aroused male genitalia. Feel free to tell me I'm off my rocker. Maybe I've been thinking about this too long.

I think the sense of being strong, stronger than nature, comes a bit later and is separate from the hardness. Bella talks about it while she is getting ready to jump across the river, a sense of strength and power filling her, the trees suddenly looking a bit flimsy. Somehow, the strength is felt differently than the hardness and other perceptions.

I also think this is another place where we have to accept the magic. The science will only take us so far. Bless her, Steph's not a scientist or that rigorous of a thinker, just a person with a good story who did a brilliant job capturing her characters. (Why did I say "just"? That should be "marvelous"!) Vampires are hard and impenetrable, but can be broken under certain conditions and can have sex with humans IF they control their bloodlust and are very, very careful.

Lordy, I hope I don't lose this post!

EDIT for Chernaudi: Yes, vampire and hybrid skin is clearly impenetrable to most or all natural objects. It's unclear quite how flammable vampires are on the outside, and hybrids vary in whether or not they are venomous. Alien weapons? S'pose it depends on the weapon. But does it flex?

Smitten, I can't post my thoughts right now, although I definitely will later.

I'm going to pay you a high compliment. That is absolutely devious cutting my legs out from under me by dismissing both BD and Bree as authoritative canon while elevating EC as the final word.

Let me just say that I never said BD couldn't be counted on, although I know there are members here who have figuratively cut that book out of the canon. I know I did have a major problem with Jacob's behavior following the imprinting, up through the Charlie scene. It wasn't that he was thoughtless or self-centered, I've seen him that way before, it was him being that way in that particular context that I found unbelievable. There are hints (my opinion, based in part on things like Edward's cold fury) that Jacob was acting out-of-character due to SM's need to solve the Charlie problem for Bella. Following that, Jacob's solipsistic behavior dissolves, never to return.

And, seriously, do you expect me to start discussing Bella's body parts? You can get away with that, Edward would track me down like a dog, and you could say bye-bye to corona posts.

I'm going to make a list of your points so I can come back later a little more organized.

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

I love reading everyone's viewpoints on this thread! However... the science of it all makes my head hurt! I'm just a simpleton. I just chalk it all up to the literary gods and creative liberty... In other words, I just "believe" vampire/human sex is possible - although dangerous; vampire-vampire sex is possible - although noisy. So... I'll continue to lurk and let Y'all do the debating. I'm lazy like that!

Brenda, try looking up Guyver on Wikipedia for starters on the basics--the article about the manga has some descriptions of the weapons involved. Also, the Guyver armor itself has to be somewhat flexible for movement, but how much, I don't know, but the same has to be assumed for vampires and hybrids, or else, they couldn't move.

Smitten, something is definitely functioning differently. It's not a simple matter of flesh types, because I would agree with your Bella comments, that wouldn't make sense.

If it was a simple matter of flesh type, then all areas of mucous membrane would be the same. That actually makes a great deal of sense to me. It sounds logical, and that is the way we are built. I've even heard of a woman having her lip repaired by transplanting membrane from another area (ahem).

So we could say human flesh is tranformed into vampire flesh, and there may even be translations of flesh type into a corresponding type. That makes a lot of sense. That should be the way things work. If areas of mucous membrane have a slightly different quality when vampirized, or even if the don't, then regardless of location the flesh should be very similar.

The problem, though, is that the functional ability would change once the skin was vampirized. With the mouth this is no big deal, the vamp can still talk, secrete venom saliva, bite, drink blood, etc. The mouth still functions. With the sexual organs, though, you would have a complete loss of function if everything was turned to stone. Similar flesh translated to vampire flesh doesn't create a problem in one area, but it does in another.

One of the more difficult things to imagine is how the Denalis have sex with men. When you think about it, though, if the Denalis have problems (impenetrable marble walls), then Edward would have a problem as well. This is, after all, vampire flesh that is being stretched and engorged through an increase in venom pressure (or blood, depending on your theory). This isn't a muscle being flexed, it a flesh tube being filled with fluid. The flesh tube expands because of hydraulic pressure. In Edward's case, this is vampire flesh, and yet the process appears to be very similar. Arteries open up letting blood in (or whatever vampire fluid is used) and veins constrict reducing the outward flow.

So, even if we assume that vamp-to-vamp is completely like human-to-human, it still doesn't work for sex. The process is the same for Edward as it is for human men. Inflation is based purely on increased fluid pressure, we react to exactly the same force, which has nothing to do with being or not being a vampire. In fact, the blood theory for male vampires means that inflation is due to exactly the same fluid. But, what works for humans won't work for Edward IF he is built like a titanium tank. The only way it could work for Edward is either a) enormous pressure that is vastly greater than a human's (and there are a number of problems with that), or more likely b) his vampire skin there somehow acts similarly to a human's, it is actually quite flexible. I can't explain why, but it is. That doesn't mean it's still human, just that it is still elastic, and possibly the only place on his body that still is. Which is why B&E do not have a problem there on the island.

[BTW, Smitten, look at the honeymoon image in your signature. Both hands on the headboard? Yep, that's how I imagined it too. That position is only possible under option B, though, NOT option A. This picture is worth a thousand rhetorical thrusts.]

And if Edward is like the rest of us, then he maintains the ability to have sex exclusively based on fluid pressure, the exact same way human men are built. His vampire skin there may be indestructible, but his organ is standing at attention for only one reason, it is filled with either blood or venom, period. There is nothing special about the physical qualities of venom either, it is a fluid that flows like water and Edward can fill a hypodermic needle with it. Therefore, there are physical limitations based upon that, unless he somehow gains a hardened shell when ready and is no longer reliant on fluid pressure.

Female vampires, therefore, must have elastic qualities too, or there cannot be sex. Male vampires cannot overcome a resistance greater than the hydraulic pressure that is keeping their popsicle of death upright, and they are just like human men in that respect. If the vampire flesh swells soley due to the increased concentration and pressure of fluids, then it is completely reliant on those fluids for rigidity, not their vampire flesh. Male vampires would not have any significant advantage of rigidity over male humans.

This doesn't make things complex, it actually makes things very simple.

**********************

Smitten's Auditory Evidence

Smitten, those are very good points. Let me bring in another view on that, Edward Cullen himself:

The Real Edward Cullen wrote:Bella, my heart, you said this boat would take us away from the noise in our house. Yet, I must point out, that you, my love, are rather noisy and I am certain that you would make those noises in a boat, in the water, in our home, or wherever we may be together.

But I accept your gift with much gratitude and love.

Bella is loud.

We don't know if these Bella noises are vocalized or vampiric impact sounds, Edward didn't elaborate. If they are impact sounds, then I rest my case. If these are vocal sounds, then the question is moot, Bella couldn't hear the other sounds anyway over her own cacophony.

I accept Edward as the authority on this.

Last edited by corona on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

missp wrote:I love reading everyone's viewpoints on this thread! However... the science of it all makes my head hurt! I'm just a simpleton. I just chalk it all up to the literary gods and creative liberty... In other words, I just "believe" vampire/human sex is possible - although dangerous; vampire-vampire sex is possible - although noisy. So... I'll continue to lurk and let Y'all do the debating. I'm lazy like that!

Tonise- Ha! I am with ya!! It makes my head hurt too! But I sure admire all of you that can get that technical about these interesting points! It sure is fun to read and follow along. I too just "believe"!! Keep debating! It's very interesting!!

Pfff, I miss one day of reading and already my head is spinning with all the new theories...

corona wrote:This statement isn't definitive, depending on how you interpret it. Are Edward's lips actually soft or do they just feel soft?

I think you should go with Bella's former experience. with everything of Edward being so much stronger that human Bella it isn't hard to imagine that his lips just molded hers without much difficulty... With Bella being a vampire, she is able to mold his or at least shape his lips to hers...her lips were just stronger...

Just a flash of thought... maybe we should compare the Vampire skin to the Mithril from Lord Of the Ring, hard as stone and as light as a feather and able to be shaped in what ever form by a strong hand and with the right tools. Frodo could pull it on like a shirt but the troll couldn't pierce it with the lance. Maybe it's the same with vampire skin, only those with the right told can shape it... Vampires.... Edward could shape/mold his body so he was able to share his wedding night with Bella in the traditional way but also now Bella is a vampire she can flex or dent Edward's skin...she now has the right tools...

corona wrote:Bella is literally fearless in her new world. She gives no thought at all to danger. She doesn't think twice about attacking that mountain lion or having its claws rake against her skin. There is no doubt in her mind that she is completely invulnerable.

I think this has more to do with her instincts and the blood thirst than with her knowledge of her form... As Edward told her to do she gives herself completely over to what her body tells her, no thought on her vulnerability or her clothes...Besides it I think it helped a great deal that Bella knew what was coming when she would be changed,...

smitten_by_twilight wrote: We're told that Riley being ripped to shreds by Seth is a louder sound than Edward catching Victoria and essentially slicing her head off. The only vampiric tissue to vampiric tissue I'm hearing, other than the metallic ripping which seems qualitatively different, is the explosion when Riley's arm and Victoria hit each other at full speed.

I think it's save to say that we must not rely on the sound effects from the movies. it sounded more like the breaking of porcelain that the metallic screeching Bella mentioned in the book... also in the movies they make Victoria completely stone, were as I remember from the book that vampire flesh can be ripped off but it sounded like metal being ripped...

Honestly the marble description is what is screwing us up...

corona wrote:If it was a simple matter of flesh type, then all areas of mucous membrane would be the same. That actually makes a great deal of sense to me. It sounds logical, and that is the way we are built. I've even heard of a woman having her lip repaired by transplanting membrane from another area (ahem).

This is the basis of the stamcell research... in theory every stamcell can become any type of tissue but what it becomes is based on the proteins and enzymes it comes in contact with... so a stamcell released in ones leg can become a heart muscle cell under the right conditions... With vampire, the burn during the transformation the cell are re-structuring themselves. probably turning from human cells to Vampire cells... but it still exists of cells, that's why Carlisle knew the chromosomal count of vampires... with vampires being build up out of cells just like humans, their build up doesn't differs that much from humans... that makes me to believe that their skin/flesh reacts the same as a human skin to touch from the species...

Hence my explanation why Jacob would be able to dock... It' theorized that Renesmee is genetically more like Jacob than Edward or Bella... so if they are, I don't think the harbor's gates will be of much issue for Jacob to pass...

alright enough thinking on my Saturday....

These violent delights, have violent endings...Like fire and gunpowder, they consume what they kiss

marielle wrote: Hence my explanation why Jacob would be able to dock... It' theorized that Renesmee is genetically more like Jacob than Edward or Bella... so if they are, I don't think the harbor's gates will be of much issue for Jacob to pass...

alright enough thinking on my Saturday....

Oh my goodness Marielle this statment made my day!! heeeeeeee All of your creative thinking, writing and dodging of the "obvious" by using the "baking" terms is what makes this thread so much fun!! Thank you!!!