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Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

Originally Posted by Keridan

I don't wish to get drowned in details while you try to prove something that just won't end up proven. I'm fine with you walking away self-assured in your beliefs. I didn't post here thinking OWS (including you, even if you aren't physically there) was going to stop using the same tactic as politicians always do. I was just sharing a view point.

Which politicians always use non-violent civil disobedience to raise public consciousness and debate???

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

I realize that was a little vague. I could have meant the law breaking, but I was referring to pretending to speak for the greater good of everyone.

The OWS are just providing a progressive voice to the public debate between the two conservative parties. As a progressive, I value that greatly!

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

Originally Posted by Catawba

You failed to prove the OWS has the goal of doing away with capitalism. Got a quote???

Among the most persistent ideological obstacles to understanding and transforming our current (and really messed-up) economic system are the beliefs that humans are unalterably greedy and that capitalism, because it is grounded in greed, will exist as long as greed exists. The purpose of this teach-in is to challenge those belief. In doing so, we’ll talk about human nature and the nature of capitalism. Greed and Capitalism | Occupy Chicago

We are not Communists if Communism means a system which collapsed in 1990. Remember that today those Communists are the most efficient, ruthless Capitalists. In China today, we have Capitalism which is even more dynamic than your American Capitalism, but doesn’t need democracy. Which means when you criticize Capitalism, don’t allow yourself to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and Capitalism is over. The change is possible.

"Zizek's got it" You can keep your head in the sand or whatever it is that you assume that you are gaining by denying the obvious, it doesnt really matter to me. But it is a proven fact that OWS = anti-Capitalism, I can go on and get you much more links and quotes if you wish.....

"We can see that for a long time we allowed our political engagement also to be outsourced. We want it back. We are not communists. If communism means the system which collapsed in 1990, remember that today those communists are the most efficient ruthless capitalists. In China today we have capitalism which is even more dynamic than your American capitalism but doesn’t need democracy. Which means when you criticize capitalism, don’t allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over.

The change is possible. So, what do we consider today possible? Just follow the media. On the one hand in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon. You can become immortal by biogenetics. You can have sex with animals or whatever. But look at the fields of society and economy. There almost everything is considered impossible. You want to raise taxes a little bit for the rich, they tell you it’s impossible, we lose competitivitiy. You want more money for healthcare: they tell you impossible, this means a totalitarian state. There is something wrong in the world where you are promised to be immortal but cannot spend a little bit more for health care. Maybe that ??? set our priorities straight here. We don’t want higher standards of living. We want better standards of living. The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. The commons of nature. The commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. The commons of biogenetics. For this and only for this we should fight."

"Zizek's got it" You can keep your head in the sand or whatever it is that you assume that you are gaining by denying the obvious, it doesnt really matter to me. But it is a proven fact that OWS = anti-Capitalism, I can go on and get you much more links and quotes if you wish.....

You should save yourself some time and learn the difference between the US in the 90's and anti-capitalism first, because nothing you've presented so far shows the OWS goal is anti-capitalism.

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

"We can see that for a long time we allowed our political engagement also to be outsourced. We want it back. We are not communists. If communism means the system which collapsed in 1990, remember that today those communists are the most efficient ruthless capitalists. In China today we have capitalism which is even more dynamic than your American capitalism but doesn’t need democracy. Which means when you criticize capitalism, don’t allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over.

The change is possible. So, what do we consider today possible? Just follow the media. On the one hand in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon. You can become immortal by biogenetics. You can have sex with animals or whatever. But look at the fields of society and economy. There almost everything is considered impossible. You want to raise taxes a little bit for the rich, they tell you it’s impossible, we lose competitivitiy. You want more money for healthcare: they tell you impossible, this means a totalitarian state. There is something wrong in the world where you are promised to be immortal but cannot spend a little bit more for health care. Maybe that ??? set our priorities straight here. We don’t want higher standards of living. We want better standards of living. The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. The commons of nature. The commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. The commons of biogenetics. For this and only for this we should fight."

You should save yourself some time and learn the difference between the US in the 90's and anti-capitalism first, because nothing you've presented so far shows the OWS goal is anti-capitalism.

I knew in the end you would deny everything, but tell since you seem to know exactly what OWs stands for, what exactly it is that OWS officially stands for. Tell me who exactly is OWS? Who do I contact to ask them what they represent? Also explain to me why, the internet sites set up by the actual occupations are full of anti-Capitalist propaganda? Also explain to me why OWS was started by Anarchists and is ran under Anarchist structure how come you think it is not Anarchy of some form? Tell me why the General Assemblies (all of the occupy movements General Assemblies that is) use the hand signals developed and used by Anarchists? Tell me why the internet is full of signs that say "death to Capitalism" and "End Capitalism" Etc. and they are at Occupy protests?

Show me the proof that the Anarchists are a fringe element of OWS. Why is it that you require me to prove my assertions yet you provide no proof just your word? Why is it so hard for you to accept what is so easily provable?

Also tell me why for all appearance OWS looks like a Socialist Revolution? DO you know what is meant by the Occupy signs that read "Capitalism has come to its end!" or "Capitalism does not work" or "Capitalism is crisis" or "Capitalism cannot be reformed"? Why are these signs prevalent at all large Occupy protests?

And it is bad form for you to try yet again to put words in my mouth. I asserted that OWS is Anti Capitalist I did not state that it was their ultimate goal. Anti Capitalism is just a part of the equation. You cannot just dismiss the proof that I have shown just because you seem to not want to accept it.

Slavoj Zizek was a featured speaker provided by OWS. As was Micheal Moore.

All across the US thousands upon thousands of commercial and residential spaces sit empty while more and more people are forced to sleep in the streets, or driven deep into poverty while trying to pay their rent despite unemployment or poverty wages. We understand that capitalism is a system that has no care for human needs.

If the Occupy movement is not Anti Capitalist, than how come I can find Anti Capitalist rhetoric at all of the Occupy sites?

Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

. You only speak for those who have conceded they don't have what it takes to be successful

What is being successful?

Edit: If we stop talking about whether people believe that they are being spoken for within the slogans which are being used and get back to their argument

The Occupy movement is born of the simple belief that humanity could meet our common needs if not for the predation and greed of the very few. Nowhere is this disparity of wealth and power more evident than in the struggle to secure the human right to housing.

In a nation that puts the right to housing at the center of its founding dream, millions of people have lost their homes or fear that they soon will because of the foreclosure crisis. Wall Street created this crisis with lies and greed. And Washington, instead of investigating Wall Street and banks, is cutting back room deals to let bankers escape justice for their crimes.

Wall Street turned a fundamental human need into a badly rigged casino game with fraudulent lending practices and corrupt securitization. They destroyed our economy, kicked tens of thousands of people illegally out of their homes, and are now using a small fraction of the money they stole to buy off politicians and settle for far less than they owe.

George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

It is hard to determine their argument. As my exchange with Catawba illustrates there is a large disagreement among supporters of the Occupy movement and OWS. The NYC General Assembly assumes control over the movement. The Good neighbor policy expresses their authority is the final word. Good Neighbor Policy | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

OWS has zero tolerance for drugs or alcohol anywhere in Liberty Plaza;Zero tolerance for violence or verbal abuse towards anyone;Zero tolerance for abuse of personal or public property.
OWS will limit drumming on the site to 2 hours per day, between the hours of 11am and 5pm only.
OWS encourages all participants to respect health and sanitary regulations, and will direct all participants to respectfully utilize appropriate off-site sanitary facilities.
OWS will display signage and have community relations and security monitors in Liberty Plaza, in order to ensure awareness of and respect for our guidelines and Good Neighbor Policy.
OWS will at all times have a community relations representative on-site, to monitor and respond to community concerns and complaints.
Occupy Wall Street
October 13, 2011

The above is not the 99% speaking it is a group that assumes it can tell their fellow protesters what to do and how to behave. Who gave them that authority? And since they claim to be speaking for the 99% they believe that they can tell us what to do as well. In the park, in the streets and our homes they dictate to us on how we can behave. They have a zero tolerance? What will they do if a protester the 99% breaks their Zero tolerance policy? Oust the 99% from their movement? This shows a authoritarian element already has roots in their movement.

I believe that there is a large Liberal support that does not understand the workings of NYC General Assembly and have the misunderstanding that OWS is actually ran by the people. NYC General Assembly believe that they are a new model of society and Government that will be the replacement of our Government. In fact they believe that they have already started the replacement Government. I really doubt that most Liberals would actually sign on to that premise knowingly.

NYC general Assembly believe that the OWS protesters are backing them that is why they put so much effort into the General Assemblies. They are engaged in a Revolution they have no desire to pursue reform.

What you asking us to do is to ignore that reality and just talk about the issues instead.

Logically the alternative for Liberals is to distance themselves from OWS and start their own movement completely on their with a definite set of goals and demands. Liberals are only marring their own ideology by trying to Co-Opt the OWS movement. But I doubt Liberals will see it that way. They will just continue up until the radicals get pissed and oust them.

Notice that Obama has distanced himself and his campaign from OWS? Notice that protesters showed up to protest Obama at a speech? OWS has never came out and said "vote Democratic" neither have they expressed any desire to vote on anything in the American system. The will not call themselves a political party. The reason is that they are not a party, they believe that they are the new American Government.

I am sure many of you will doubt what I am saying. If you actually research the OWS movement you will find the same things that I have, that OWS is not an Liberal movement at all.