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Topic: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life (Read 41410 times)

God's got lots of Books. The register of who was born in Jerusalem, does not have to be the Lamb's Book of Life. We are talking about the Lamb's Book of Life. There are other Books.

I agree the register of those born in Zion does not have to be exactly equivalent to the Lamb's book of life, but wouldn't you agree it at least has to be a subset of it?

Because anyone with citizenship in Zion can enter God's holy city spoken about in Rev 21 and 22. And, Paul tells us that we have citizenship in heaven. It is God who establishes it. And this is written in the book of life. It has to be.

Yes?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 11:13:09 PM by Molly »

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LS

Hi Hans - I just want you to know that I'm reading your posts with great interest. I once told someone that it seemed to me that all are born "saved" but as we go through life, some utterly reject God and are not, then, saved. What you are posting is scriptural support for a general belief that was placed on my heart.

Thank you for taking time to post; I had looked up all of the references to the book of life one time before and noted, as you do, that names are blotted out; I had not paid attention at the time that there is no reference to any being added in!

Hans, here is another example that not all are on the call list. Well, they can answer the phone if it rings, but the person on the other end will be speaking jibberish as far as they are concerned. They won't understand a word of it. Is that their fault or the purpose of God?

Molly I don't think your example shows that. If they were not on the list, then they would have no right to respond to God.

In the world what you are suggesting would work like this:

I go up to someone who can only speak Spanish. I don't know they can only speak Spanish. I give them the Gospel in English. I sound like I am speaking gibberish to them. After wards I conclude that due to the language barrier, they could not understand me. I conclude that because they could not understand me, they are therefore NOT entitled to receive Christ and it is NOT the will of God to save them. I think that would be silly. Yet that is what your example is suggesting.

Because they can't understand my language does not mean that God does not want to save them.

The answer is to learn Spanish, bring a Spanish speaker along, give them a Spanish Bible and so on. God wants to save ALL people and just because they cannot understand your language does not mean that He does NOT want to save them. Just because they don't speak your language does not meant that they are NOT in the Lamb's Book of life.

Because they can't understand my language does not mean that God does not want to save them.

That's a great thought! Yet, Jesus tells his disciples he is purposely speaking in English so they cannot understand him. [I speak in parables so they won't understand what I am saying--lest they turn and be healed, he says later in that passage].

So what is Jesus up to?

Quote

God wants to save ALL people and just because they cannot understand your language does not mean that He does NOT want to save them.

Exactly. And clearly God could speak any language he wants and be as clear or obscure as he wants.

He chooses to be obscure--speaking in English to Spanish speaking peoples per your example.

Hi Hans - I just want you to know that I'm reading your posts with great interest. I once told someone that it seemed to me that all are born "saved" but as we go through life, some utterly reject God and are not, then, saved. What you are posting is scriptural support for a general belief that was placed on my heart.

Thank you for taking time to post; I had looked up all of the references to the book of life one time before and noted, as you do, that names are blotted out; I had not paid attention at the time that there is no reference to any being added in!

Thanks LS for the good feedback. I started this thread on another site, because I had never really heard or read any thing about it. So it's more like an exploratory thread. On the other site lots of people have brought out various Scripture that I had never even connected before on this topic. When I saw the thread here, I thought I would come here and add just a little. Naturally, the presentations here is a little shorter.

Concerning "born saved" I think you are absolutely right. Think about babies that are aborted, or die before they can hardly even think. I think Christ's sacrifice covers them, even though they never really "got saved." If that's the case, then babies really are born saved.

Hi Hans - I just want you to know that I'm reading your posts with great interest. I once told someone that it seemed to me that all are born "saved" but as we go through life, some utterly reject God and are not, then, saved. What you are posting is scriptural support for a general belief that was placed on my heart.

Thank you for taking time to post; I had looked up all of the references to the book of life one time before and noted, as you do, that names are blotted out; I had not paid attention at the time that there is no reference to any being added in!

Thanks LS for the good feedback. I started this thread on another site, because I had never really heard or read any thing about it. So it's more like an exploratory thread. On the other site lots of people have brought out various Scripture that I had never even connected before on this topic. When I saw the thread here, I thought I would come here and add just a little. Naturally, the presentations here is a little shorter.

Concerning "born saved" I think you are absolutely right. Think about babies that are aborted, or die before they can hardly even think. I think Christ's sacrifice covers them, even though they never really "got saved." If that's the case, then babies really are born saved.

Thanks for the good input.

Hi LS and HansC. I really can see how the above thoughts might seem to fit with either ET or ED (which is what I understand you to believe, sister LS). I've seen that teaching before, and I don't believe it. We are not born saved, we're born lost - with the sin of Adam upon us. IMO, a real problem with that theory is that all must come THROUGH Jesus, and every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Through Him is the only way to the Father. The Bible makes no allowances for being saved through innocence. Babies are given a spirit that comes from God to begin with. So even though in a baby's body and mind, I believe when standing before Jesus they will still bow and confess Jesus is Lord. I DO NOT believe they go to so-called "hell", but that every tongue still must confess, whether saved in this lifetime or having gone through kolasis aionian.

well Jesus is doing it intentionally. He is intentionally speaking a language they will not understand. So he must have a good reason for doing this.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

--Mat 13

GOOD BENEFICIAL DISCUSSION. As Hans said, it's causing me to think and dig into some things.

Molly, I believe absolutely! It's part of God's plan. ("it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter"). Jesus hid Himself (Who He truly was) from the masses when on earth. ("...why parables?... it's not been given to them to know/to you it's been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom"). Many people died during that time. Did God just choose to send them to eternal hell (or eternal death) while He was walking the earth hiding Himself from most of them, with no further plan to "remedy" things? I personally can't believe that to be the case.

Also Molly, following up on our earlier thoughts.

I've still been having some wonderment over this.

1) I do believe the elect are the predestined, while the rest are added later after kolasis aonian (temporary correction [spiritual Lake of Fire]). EVERY knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord IN the Holy Spirit. No man can Jesus Lord except in the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3) When one confesses Jesus is Lord THEY ARE SAVED. (Rom. 10:9) Each in his own order. (I Cor. 15:23)

So if the names in the Book of Life are the elect/saved in the ages (Old Cov, New Cov) prior to the upcoming next age , then I believe they will endure - God Himself ensures it. I for one DO NOT believe we either attain or maintain our salvation. Paul said if you're "justified" (the law doesn't save) by the law, you've "fallen" from grace (i.e., not depending on Christ). I believe that the elect are guaranteed to run the race and finish the course;

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. Phil. 1:6

I believe in holiness, righteousness. I don't believe in sinning more so grace may abound. I believe (not always able) in surrender and obedience. But as discussed in other places, these need to be HIS works through us, because our works are as filthy rags and will be burned. So further;

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13

Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Heb. 12:2

for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return. 2 Timothy 1:12

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph. 2:8

So who's blotted out, and what does it mean? Most here believe all are eventually reconciled, but the details of the Book of Life are in question.

Maybe it doesn't describe in every possible detail 1) who's put in, 2) who's taken out, 3) when they're written back in. Maybe every exact line is not filled in exactly as we'd want it.

But we do know this; quote self :) - "I know there are other scriptures that talk about all being reconciled, God being All in All, all summed up in Christ, every tongue confessing Jesus is Lord IN [lit. transl.] the Holy Spirit ("whoever believes/confesses will be saved"); all those Paulinian verses that go beyond what some believe to be the final accounting, i.e., "Revelations" (the Revelation or Unveiling of Jesus Christ) and show the ultimate reconciliation of all of creation. Also, in the Unveiling itself, there's the picture of the gates of the city being open day and night, never locked, as the kings (us, believers) bring our treasures (new believers) into it, the leaves of the Tree of Life healing the nations, no moredeath, pain,tears-which precludes an eternal torment - never mind the character of love Himself!."

well Jesus is doing it intentionally. He is intentionally speaking a language they will not understand. So he must have a good reason for doing this.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

--Mat 13

When Jesus speak sin parables i.e the wheat and the tares, he speaks in parables because of he told them bluntely, they would be angry and cast stones on him. Every time Jesus directly answered them, they cast stones upon him.

Does Jesus speak in parabes to hide the kingdom from them?

Seems contradictory to the message of Jesus. "Woe to the blind guides, you shut up the kingdom of heaven and make him a 2 fold child of hell"

So if Jesus does the same and hides the kingdom, isn't that hypocrisy?

There is a plausable explanation. Ok God sometimes dishes out punishements for any old covenant saint that broke the laws etc, he also dished out words of judgment against people like, King of Babylon and King David. Perhaps in this instance when Jesus says

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

--Mat 13

That God has already judged these fellows and that he does not want them to have mercy or to be more exact, does not want them to have an easy way out for the evil they may have done.

"Born saved"--that's Calvinism. And although the Bible has a very strong 'Calvinistic' strain in it, there are also real problems with Calvinism as doctrine.

TT, Jesus stood in front of the Pharisees and Scribes on more than one occasion and said horrible things to them. [So did John the Baptist]. Imagine if we went out evangelizing and calling people Vipers and a pit of snakes and a den of thieves?Would we expect to win converts?

Clearly he wasn't expecting to convert them, and they completely ignored the truth of his words and refused to repent, so my conclusion--These words were said for us, for our benefit, not for them. The Bible even says they have a veil--and they must, because how they missed their Messiah is beyond me. Today most don't even bother to look--How many Jews say to themselves, let me check this out if Jesus could possibly really be our Messiah? If they looked, they would see it.

I'm more and more thinking that our Bible is just written for those who will be brought into the kingdom in this age--from Moses until the fullfillment of the Gentiles. What happens in the next age is not very well spelled out. Should it be? Or should the day be sufficient unto itself? I have enough problems just getting through the day.

But the Bible does say that someday God will be all in all-- NOT all in all that's left.

Or perhaps simply he just wants to give the mysteries the wonderous stuff to his closest companions

wow I was just looking at a verse last night where Paul calls those he's writing to 'true companion.' The word in Greek means 'co-yoked' or 'yoke-fellows.'

Yes, I would like to be HIS true companion. His yoke is easy.

Philippians 4:3Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

I haven't read every post but I think I have a different view of this than any one else here.My for what they are worth.

I believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel. Well, in fact the whole Bible is. Doesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites, since they were the chosen nation? Now, I don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book, that is why it mentions "names not written in the book of life", they are not Israelites. When a name is blotted out it means they either died, or are not considered an Israelite. This is why Moses was willing for his name to be blotted out (Ex. 32:32-33) (Psalms 69:28).

Here God threatened to blot out the whole nation.(Deut. 9:14) Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and BLOT OUT THEIR NAME from under heaven; and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater then they.

"Born saved"--that's Calvinism. And although the Bible has a very strong 'Calvinistic' strain in it, there are also real problems with Calvinism as doctrine.

I didn't say they were born saved. Jesus said that having Abrham as their father would not save them, they had faith in their ethnicity, instead of having a living faith such as Abraham.

TT, Jesus stood in front of the Pharisees and Scribes on more than one occasion and said horrible things to them. [So did John the Baptist]. Imagine if we went out evangelizing and calling people Vipers and a pit of snakes and a den of thieves?Would we expect to win converts?

He called Peter Satan. For God or an anointed man like Jesus, however you wish to look at it, his words would pierce the heart and it would cut the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh. Some of these pharisses were so hardened in their hearts, that grace did not move them, such as when Jesus talked about the sabbath day I think or was it the man with the withered hand.

Clearly he wasn't expecting to convert them, and they completely ignored the truth of his words and refused to repent, so my conclusion--These words were said for us, for our benefit, not for them. The Bible even says they have a veil--and they must, because how they missed their Messiah is beyond me. Today most don't even bother to look--How many Jews say to themselves, let me check this out if Jesus could possibly really be our Messiah? If they looked, they would see it.

TTI disagree in some sense but not whole. Jesus was not sent but to the lost house of Israel and some of the pharisses did have a heart after God. I think there is an instance where a pharisse speaks up for christ, by saying "Does our law condemn an inncocent man", or something like that.

I have looked at some scriptures and this is current understanding.

Gods propehcy was that Israel be saved. But they by their own wickedness rejected the message as a group. so God then hardens their already hard heart. I think the purpose of this might be because a very hard heart can see the difference between righteousness and evil but a grey heart that is only half hard, will more than likely become pridefull or dismiss the difference between their greyishness and the white. A bit like I might be gray but that is good enough for me I have shades of white in me. But a black heart would see the difference and think oh my I wish I were to become as white as that.I will explain the mstery of this parable. The Black heart is the hardened Jew heart that God commanded, the white heart is the glory and fullness of the times of the gentiles, that provoke the black heart to jealousy, the grey heart was the heart that the Jews had before God hardened it. So my thery is that God hardened their hearts so that in future they can see their own misery and be jealous of the gentiles much better than a greay heart would be. What do you think ? I think it's a great explanation

I'm more and more thinking that our Bible is just written for those who will be brought into the kingdom in this age--from Moses until the fullfillment of the Gentiles. What happens in the next age is not very well spelled out. Should it be? Or should the day be sufficient unto itself? I have enough problems just getting through the day.

TTI could be wrong but I think that the bible will be widely used during the 1000 millenium peace. It is possible that Jesus may not be visible to the people at that time but will rule in the heavens with his saints over restored Jerusalem. The word of the lord goeth forth from Jerusalem and the nations do flow into it to honour the king every year. Isiah

But the Bible does say that someday God will be all in all-- NOT all in all that's left.

Just to not be mistaken, I don't mean to imply that people come into this world void of the taint of Adam's fall. Certainly, the fallen separated nature is passed on from Adam unto all his progeny. However, when the young pass, Christ's sacrifice provides for them. For example, when the aborted child passes, she does not go unto the zone of separation, but rather, passes unto the realm of Light and Life. Just wanted to emphasize that so not to be mistaken.

CHB said

Quote

I believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel.

While it is true that there is a strong Israel focus, we still need to remember that Revelation speaks to:

Revelation 14:6. . . to EVERY nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[/color]

Quote

Doesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites

I don't think it works, here's why; The Bible says:

John 3:16

For God so loved the WORLD. . .[/color]

If the Lamb's Book of Life contained ONLY the names of Israelites, then john 3:16 would have to read "For God so loved the ISRAEL"

Jesus purchased the right to His Book of Life by His blood, which was shed not ONLY for Israel, but for ALL the world. Israel could be considered a subset of ALL the World.

Because the Book of Life now belongs to Jesus, it is called the Lamb's Book of Life. Because Jesus, by His blood, was given the right to break the seals and open the Book, he is allowed to:

1. Open the Book

2. Delete names out of the Book

3. Confess names unto His Father from the Book.

Quote

I don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book

So Saint Luke's name is not in the Book of Life? How about the Galatians that Paul wrote to? The Corinthians? The Romans? I don't think it works to restrict the Book of Life to ONLy Israelis, when Christ clearly was providing a means unto God for ALL.

Quote

if Jesus does the same and hides the kingdom, isn't that hypocrisy?

No, it's not. He was in essence revealing to them their true condition. They thought they knew, they didn't. Before a person who is firmly convinced that they are right, but really wrong, they need to be shown, that they really don't know. If you notice, frequently when a person expressed incredulity to Christ's claim's, He didn't try to make it easier for them to understand, rather, He commonly responded with an even harder thing to grasp.

Just to not be mistaken, I don't mean to imply that people come into this world void of the taint of Adam's fall. Certainly, the fallen separated nature is passed on from Adam unto all his progeny. However, when the young pass, Christ's sacrifice provides for them. For example, when the aborted child passes, she does not go unto the zone of separation, but rather, passes unto the realm of Light and Life. Just wanted to emphasize that so not to be mistaken.

I don't know that we're worlds apart on this piece Hans, but I think a bit. I don't know of any scrips that indicate salvation by innocence. What I do see is that Jesus said all must come THROUGH Him. So I don't believe we're born saved. We're born with a God-shaped hole in our heart only Jesus can fill (sorry, it's a song I wrote once )

I'm not positive about the Israel part CHB mentioned, I do think it's very interesting though and worth further consideration.

As far as the last paragraph, I agree with much/all of that. And I was thinking earlier - don't we all pretty much think it's the other guy that's blinded?

Mark 10:14Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not[/color]

The words of Christ are not just a record of what Christ said a long time ago, but transcend time and space and are ALIVE. It's not so much that He said these things, but rather that He is SAYING this RIGHT NOW. The passage I posted in the spirit realm, is a constant, living call going forth and forth and forth. It is alive.

So when the little child passes, from this realm unto the realm of Spirit, this living call, grips him and pulls him into the realm of Life and Light. Maybe, I'm not using the best way to describe this, but when the little child passes unto spirit, this living spoken Word creates a "tractor beam" (for lack of a better word) and pulls them unto Him.

I'll have to think about that scripture some more, because right now I don't see that's what it truly means. I think there's other context(s) to consider/things related. I'll mull it.

I'm back. OK, I've mulled it a little (more to come lol). Sure, I believe they come to Him - that He wants them to. But I still believe they, as must everyone else, kneel and confess Him as their Lord. The spirit God gave them is in a little child's mind and body, but the spirit is not a little child. It is a part of God's creation that still must acknowledge Him for Who He is. IMO, that's the scripture - "no man comes to the Father but through Me".

I believe you were doing a little supposing in your post. Now, this next piece is admittedly supposition on my part - putting 2 and 2 together and hopefully coming up with 4 - but I don't believe that spirit that was in that child must go through a long Lake of Fire experience to bring them to a cleansing, confessing repentance, with works of their flesh, anything not of God having to burned "so the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord". In that sense, there is a bit of innocence at play.

But to the bottom line, and where I believe this connects to the Book of Life discussion; I don't believe there's any scriptural evidence that people are born saved. I believe it's totally the opposite. We're born under Adam's curse. But that doesn't mean God doesn't have a remedy for the child. I believe He does, as He does for adults; they must come through Jesus to be saved. My coming up with (hopefully) 4 here is, the hardened, sin filled reprobate is likely to need a whole lot more kolasis aionian to bring them to repentance, whereas that little child's spirit will immediately recognize Jesus as the Savior, accept and confess Him. Part of that I believe is absolutely scriptural, i.e., we're born lost by inheritance, we must be saved by grace, coming through the Son. Again, some of the rest of it is my reasoning, and I could be missing some things on that part. I believe the scriptural parts are sound, though. I hope on the rest of it.

Mark 10:14Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not[/color]

The words of Christ are not just a record of what Christ said a long time ago, but transcend time and space and are ALIVE. It's not so much that He said these things, but rather that He is SAYING this RIGHT NOW. The passage I posted in the spirit realm, is a constant, living call going forth and forth and forth. It is alive.

So when the little child passes, from this realm unto the realm of Spirit, this living call, grips him and pulls him into the realm of Life and Light. Maybe, I'm not using the best way to describe this, but when the little child passes unto spirit, this living spoken Word creates a "tractor beam" (for lack of a better word) and pulls them unto Him.

I really enjoyed that. I know in my heart that Jesus loves the children.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.--Mat 18

While it is true that there is a strong Israel focus, we still need to remember that Revelation speaks to:

Revelation 14:6. . . to EVERY nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[/color]

Quote

Doesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites

I don't think it works, here's why; The Bible says:

John 3:16

For God so loved the WORLD. . .[/color]

If the Lamb's Book of Life contained ONLY the names of Israelites, then john 3:16 would have to read "For God so loved the ISRAEL"

Jesus purchased the right to His Book of Life by His blood, which was shed not ONLY for Israel, but for ALL the world. Israel could be considered a subset of ALL the World.

Because the Book of Life now belongs to Jesus, it is called the Lamb's Book of Life. Because Jesus, by His blood, was given the right to break the seals and open the Book, he is allowed to:

1. Open the Book

2. Delete names out of the Book

3. Confess names unto His Father from the Book.

Quote

I don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book

So Saint Luke's name is not in the Book of Life? How about the Galatians that Paul wrote to? The Corinthians? The Romans? I don't think it works to restrict the Book of Life to ONLy Israelis, when Christ clearly was providing a means unto God for ALL.

Just because the book of life only has the names of the Israelites in it , doesn't mean that the rest of the world won't be saved. This is two seperate things. Just like Israel being the chosen nation doesn't mean that the rest of the world won't be saved.