Want real change? Easy solution....Don't vote!

Originally posted by MrWendal
There are some things I like about Gary Johnson, and some things I do not like.

There is no perfect candidate out there. There will always be something about the candidate that you don't like. But 'change' means voting for
someone outside the (R) and (D) boxes - IMHO. That would shake up TPTB and shake up the MSM and shake up the government. It would mean something
substantial.

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Do you really think you'll ever find a candidate with whom you agree 100% of the time across all issues? Hell, you won't even find a potential
drinking buddy fitting that criteria.

I can find a reason to disagree with anyone about something. Politics is about compromise. Your best bet is to do the work to find some
party/candidate coming the closest to what you believe and go with that. Can you honestly not see the immaturity inherent in the non-participatory
strategy?

[Edit to add]

^^^FlyersFan, get out of my head!^^^

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Well it would be a process. A long process. If voter turnout is low enough, one could then claim that Government as "Illegitimate". Then the next
step in the process can begin... abolishing the current Government and replacing it with a new Government more reflective of the people. However, as
long as turnout remains over 50% we are being Governed by consent of the majority.

Now keep in mind, I am not suggesting people not vote any more ever again. I am suggesting that people not vote in this Presidential Election. How
would this work? I'd like to imagine that us here in the US, and anywhere for that matter, should take a close look at what happened in Iceland.

Iceland over the last 2 years has done the most remarkable thing seen since the Revolutionary War in 1776. What Iceland has done is given the world a
playbook to follow in how to overthrow a Government... and they did so with little to no violence and bloodshed. You won't hear about it in the
Mainstream Media, but a quick summary of Iceland over the last couple years:

-resignation of the whole government
-nationalization of the bank.
-referendum so that the people can decide over the economic decisions.
-incarcerating the responsible parties
-rewriting of the constitution by its people

Instead of showing up to the polls on Election Day and participating in the fraud, we should not vote at all and show up at the Gate of the White
House and let our voice be heard...and then stay there until it is.

First of all, I thoroughly agree with you about the magnitude of the accomplishment of Iceland. I'm a great admirer of what Iceland has done. That
said, I have to compare the size of Iceland to the size of the U.S. Squish it a little square and
you could fit it into the Texas panhandle. I think the sheer size of our Country is going to make an Iceland-type maneuver geographically
impossible. How are we going to get enough people in the U.S. to the White House lawn? Who can leave their jobs, afford the travel, etc.?

Look, too, at the diversity of Iceland ~ virtually nil. We 'celebrate' diversity here but, in all truthfulness, we celebrate it so damned much that
we no longer have any kind of cohesive society. We can't get people here to agree that we're one RACE, how are we going to get enough people to
agree to shut down the current government?

How would we convince the over 50 MILLION people who live on government handouts to shut down the hand that feeds them?

And, as for it taking time, I cannot agree that we have the luxury of time on our side. We are about to implode, both financially and socially. I
know people don't like hearing that and I'm not approaching it from the conspiracy theory angle - I'm approaching that from the models history has
given us.

So, while I do understand what you're saying and I DO see HOW it could work, I don't believe that it CAN work due to our size, our overall refusal
to find common ground and those who will not cut off the hand that feeds them.

Taking the opposite viewpoint of yours, I would claim that by not voting we would ensure that the same people in government would hold the same
positions due to non-voting. What would that create? A dictatorship. How soon do you think it might take them to pass laws that, since people were
NOT voting, they were going to just stop the election process, claiming that stopping it due to non-interest in it would save "billions?"

I greatly appreciate your participation and input. It's nice to discuss without emotion and animosity. Thank you for that!

Voting will only make a difference if the voting system isn't corrupt.

If the vote count resulted in 100% in favour of candidate 'A', but TPTB want candidate 'B' in office, then candidate 'B' will be in office. You
'voters' will just be told that candidate 'B' won the vote count.

Our countries are in a mess I agree, unhappy citizens, but that's what you get when we have crooks running things. And we will always have crooks
running things because the vote system is corrupt. A vicious circle. A charade put on to humour the people. I see it and I won't take a part in
it.

There is no such thing as an honest and respectable politician anymore, and this is exactly where the problem lies.

I wouldn't invite a crook to run my household, so why would I invite one to run my country?

Originally posted by MrWendal
There are some things I like about Gary Johnson, and some things I do not like.

There is no perfect candidate out there. There will always be something about the candidate that you don't like. But 'change' means voting for
someone outside the (R) and (D) boxes - IMHO. That would shake up TPTB and shake up the MSM and shake up the government. It would mean something
substantial.

I understand exactly what you are saying, but my vote is always for Liberty. Prisons for profit is not Liberty.

As many know I have been a Paul supporter, and there were things about Paul I didn't like such as his stance on Abortion. The difference here is,
Paul at most would turn the decision over to the States and let the States decide the issue. He would not simply decide the issue himself at a Federal
Level based on his personal beliefs. Would Gary Johnson do that? I don't think he would.

Originally posted by SeesFar
First of all, I thoroughly agree with you about the magnitude of the accomplishment of Iceland. I'm a great admirer of what Iceland has done. That
said, I have to compare the size of Iceland to the size of the U.S. Squish it a little square and
you could fit it into the Texas panhandle. I think the sheer size of our Country is going to make an Iceland-type maneuver geographically
impossible. How are we going to get enough people in the U.S. to the White House lawn? Who can leave their jobs, afford the travel, etc.?

Look, too, at the diversity of Iceland ~ virtually nil. We 'celebrate' diversity here but, in all truthfulness, we celebrate it so damned much that
we no longer have any kind of cohesive society. We can't get people here to agree that we're one RACE, how are we going to get enough people to
agree to shut down the current government?

How would we convince the over 50 MILLION people who live on government handouts to shut down the hand that feeds them?

And, as for it taking time, I cannot agree that we have the luxury of time on our side. We are about to implode, both financially and socially. I
know people don't like hearing that and I'm not approaching it from the conspiracy theory angle - I'm approaching that from the models history has
given us.

So, while I do understand what you're saying and I DO see HOW it could work, I don't believe that it CAN work due to our size, our overall refusal
to find common ground and those who will not cut off the hand that feeds them.

Taking the opposite viewpoint of yours, I would claim that by not voting we would ensure that the same people in government would hold the same
positions due to non-voting. What would that create? A dictatorship. How soon do you think it might take them to pass laws that, since people were
NOT voting, they were going to just stop the election process, claiming that stopping it due to non-interest in it would save "billions?"

I greatly appreciate your participation and input. It's nice to discuss without emotion and animosity. Thank you for that!

Great post

You have certainly given me much more to think about.

I believe what Iceland did was a model. Will it work just that same way in the US? Obviously not considering the points you bring to the table, but it
is still a model to go by which is better than the lack of a model we have now. What if instead of the White House Lawn, it is the Capitol Building in
each State?

This point of our conversation reminds me of my motorcycle. I am sure that sounds strange but allow me to explain. When my motorcycle has an issue
that requires service, I do the work myself because I can not afford to take the bike to the shop. So what I do is scan different service forums,
research the issue I am having and I try to find solutions. I am not the most mechanically inclined person around, so I usually end up watching videos
of people who fix the same or similar issues on their motorcycles. Of course, there are many different types of motorcycles out there, so usually the
videos I watch are not exact in how I will fix my motorcycle, but it gives me a model to go by.

I do not see this issue as being much different. Granted, Iceland is much much smaller than the US, but what is to stop us from taking that idea, that
model, and adjusting it to our own specific needs in order to make it work for us here at home? I hope the point I am trying to get across here makes
some sense.

You very well may be correct that here is the US we do not have the time to wait. At least I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point., but it has
to start some where. Our current path of continuing the status quo is going to come to end at some point or another, so the question we have to ask
ourselves is- would we take control back from the Government and take some responsibility for our own future? Or will we allow our future to be
decided for us by the same Establishment that brought us our miserable present?

I don't have all the answers. None of us do and I clearly do not have the answers to every point you have brought up. That being said I do believe
that not voting, and declaring this Government to be illegitimate is as good a place to start as any. At least it is the best idea I have, but I am
more than willing to hear and consider any better ideas someone else may have.

I greatly appreciate your participation and input. It's nice to discuss without emotion and animosity. Thank you for that!

I appreciate your time and input as well. It is nice to see two people with opposite views discuss things without all the negativity. That is one of
the things that makes this site great and keeps me posting here, sadly we do not see enough of it, but hopefully our discussion can show others that
it can be done and for that I thank you as well my friend.

I actually address my thoughts on "write in" votes in one of my previous posts.

Again, I will say, YES Iceland did vote, but the real voting took place AFTER the Government stepped down. Which should go to teach us all just how
much "we the people" can accomplish once we remove "Government" from the equation.

I agree with you on one point, not voting in simply one election will not accomplish anything. However, It's what we do AFTER not voting and
declaring, by that lack of a vote, that this Government is illegitimate that can make all the difference. Again, it is a process. It does not stop
simply cause people didn't vote.

I actually address my thoughts on "write in" votes in one of my previous posts.

Again, I will say, YES Iceland did vote, but the real voting took place AFTER the Government stepped down. Which should go to teach us all just how
much "we the people" can accomplish once we remove "Government" from the equation.

I agree with you on one point, not voting in simply one election will not accomplish anything. However, It's what we do AFTER not voting and
declaring, by that lack of a vote, that this Government is illegitimate that can make all the difference. Again, it is a process. It does not stop
simply cause people didn't vote.

Sorry if my frankness is upsetting you. How's this??? Pardon me sir/madam but I would like to call your attention to the fact that Iceland does
indeed have a government, AND, it was voted in by the people. I personally would not use them as an example of not voting. And, what if EVERYONE
wrote in Ron Paul!?!?!?! Better????

You are not upsetting me at all. I am simply asking for the same politeness in return that I have extended in my replies to you. If you would like me
to be a sarcastic ass, I am sure I can accommodate that request, but wouldn't you rather have a civil discussion about the topic at hand?

As far as the rest of your post, I believe I have addressed every single question you pose yet I can not help but notice how you have avoided the
question I asked you in my very first reply. When given the choice between voting for Dumb or Dumber, what exactly is the goal you are hoping to
achieve by participating in that vote? I ask this because voting in the US is much like deciding how you wish to be raped. Would you prefer to be
dragged into a van and raped in the woods? Or would you prefer that your rapist take you out to dinner, buy you flowers, and date rape you at the end
of the night?

Edit to add: I am not using Iceland as an example of not voting. I used Iceland as an example of how to overthrow a Government that is not
representative of it's people without violence. The not voting point is in my opinion, a step in that process. Perhaps taking the time to read my post
and understanding my point would help in understanding my position.

Who said anything about voting for dumb and dumber? As far as overturning the government, I couldn't agree more. I do my part..... by voting. Just
because I don't agree with your point of view on certain issues, or don't give long drawn out replies doesn't mean emotion needs to be brought into
the conversation. For the record, I have always thought people who can but don't vote are the lazy, dumb people. Or the polite version is "I have
always looked upon those who can but don't vote as action challenged and uneducated."

As far as overturning the government, I couldn't agree more. I do my part..... by voting.

And how has that been working out for you? Seems to me that an agenda is being followed regardless of who you have voted for. Would you agree that is
a fair statement?

Just because I don't agree with your point of view on certain issues, or don't give long drawn out replies doesn't mean emotion needs to
be brought into the conversation.

I didnt realize I was bringing emotion into this by asking that you extend the same courtesy that I have shown to you. I would suggest that my replies
to others in this same thread would indicate that I am not bringing emotion into this in any way. Quite the contrary, I have been very civil and have
discussed this topic respectfully regardless of weather not another poster agrees with me or disagrees with me.

For the record, I have always thought people who can but don't vote are the lazy, dumb people. Or the polite version is "I have always
looked upon those who can but don't vote as action challenged and uneducated."

edit on 3-8-2012 by Gridrebel because: (no reason
given)

Well if that is the case I feel kind of sorry for you. I wouldn't wish to view people in such narrow minded, one size fits all ways.

I can not help but notice you still have not directly answered my question, so I can only assume that you really have no interest in furthering this
discussion. Instead it just seems your only interest is in telling me how I am wrong and you are right. So if that is the case, you win. Be right.

Originally posted by Akuhei
Yes, it's a complete and utter sham, but you know what? If you don't vote for someone, you don't have the right to complain about whoever the
president is after they take office. If you don't vote, the talking heads will get into office anyway. You're just displaying complacency with the
system.

You don't exercise your right to vote, you might as well have lost it altogether.

Actually the person who does not vote has more of a right to say anything than those who continue to egg on this sham.

I do not vote because i am not going to vote for the lesser of two evils. why should we vote for the candidate that stinks the less?? really?? so
what you are saying is I should choose to eat crap or crap with flies on it.. hmm how about neither I want something else.

And if you say you can change things with the system... wasn't this current administration all about change? how did that turn out? they just lie to
get elected then do what their special interests groups tell them to do.

Lets face it both sides lie to us so why do we continue to vote. Just stop. I am not going to vote just to exercise the right to vote. I am going
to vote if i believe in something. The reason things have gotten so bad is because people just keep voting for the current system. how is the system
going to know there is something wrong with it if you keep playing along.

Originally posted by Akuhei
Yes, it's a complete and utter sham, but you know what? If you don't vote for someone, you don't have the right to complain about whoever the
president is after they take office. If you don't vote, the talking heads will get into office anyway. You're just displaying complacency with the
system.

You don't exercise your right to vote, you might as well have lost it altogether.

Actually the person who does not vote has more of a right to say anything than those who continue to egg on this sham.

I do not vote because i am not going to vote for the lesser of two evils. why should we vote for the candidate that stinks the less?? really?? so
what you are saying is I should choose to eat crap or crap with flies on it.. hmm how about neither I want something else.

And if you say you can change things with the system... wasn't this current administration all about change? how did that turn out? they just lie to
get elected then do what their special interests groups tell them to do.

Lets face it both sides lie to us so why do we continue to vote. Just stop. I am not going to vote just to exercise the right to vote. I am going
to vote if i believe in something. The reason things have gotten so bad is because people just keep voting for the current system. how is the system
going to know there is something wrong with it if you keep playing along.

Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33
Everyone is complaing about everything from the impending war on Iran and Syria to which candidate couldn't care less about the average Joe. A
two-party system is designed to fail it's citizens and make it a lot easier for corporations to buy the votes from both sides of the isle.

If you really want to shake up the system. If you really want to get international attention to the rampant corruption of the US Gov then the best
thing to do is to stop perpetuating it, by voting in these mock elections.

Regardless of what you vote, the electoral college has the final say anyway. The US is a representative democracy, not a direct-democracy, and if
your so-called representatives are bought and paid for (lobbyism) then it's time to try a different approach.

In closing, a vote for any of the talking heads this November is a vote for (big) business as usual. This can be the beginning of a movement that is
uncorruptable...uninfiltratable (if that's a real word) and guranteed to get the message out that we will not tolerate treason anymore.

Make t-shirts, signs and bumper-stickers. Post on Facebook. This movement has no leader to be bought, killed or discredited. It's a movement, by
the people, for the people.

My Opinion of the Electorial System for years has been NOT TO VOTE as a method of CASTING YOUR VOTE because of not believing that either party has
anyone worth voting for. It is a VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE.

Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33
Everyone is complaing about everything from the impending war on Iran and Syria to which candidate couldn't care less about the average Joe. A
two-party system is designed to fail it's citizens and make it a lot easier for corporations to buy the votes from both sides of the isle.

If you really want to shake up the system. If you really want to get international attention to the rampant corruption of the US Gov then the best
thing to do is to stop perpetuating it, by voting in these mock elections.

Regardless of what you vote, the electoral college has the final say anyway. The US is a representative democracy, not a direct-democracy, and if
your so-called representatives are bought and paid for (lobbyism) then it's time to try a different approach.

In closing, a vote for any of the talking heads this November is a vote for (big) business as usual. This can be the beginning of a movement that is
uncorruptable...uninfiltratable (if that's a real word) and guranteed to get the message out that we will not tolerate treason anymore.

Make t-shirts, signs and bumper-stickers. Post on Facebook. This movement has no leader to be bought, killed or discredited. It's a movement, by
the people, for the people.

My Opinion of the Electorial System for years has been NOT TO VOTE as a method of CASTING YOUR VOTE because of not believing that either party has
anyone worth voting for. It is a VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE.

And this is why your vote counts, from the city leaders to the president. Mayors can go on to be governors, senators, any number of higher political
power positions. Doing nothing achieves just that.....nothing. Hmmmmmmm, a movement by the people, for the people.....that sounds like a government
to me

I believe what Iceland did was a model. Will it work just that same way in the US? Obviously not considering the points you bring to the table, but it
is still a model to go by which is better than the lack of a model we have now. What if instead of the White House Lawn, it is the Capitol Building in
each State?

This point of our conversation reminds me of my motorcycle. I am sure that sounds strange but allow me to explain. When my motorcycle has an issue
that requires service, I do the work myself because I can not afford to take the bike to the shop. So what I do is scan different service forums,
research the issue I am having and I try to find solutions. I am not the most mechanically inclined person around, so I usually end up watching videos
of people who fix the same or similar issues on their motorcycles. Of course, there are many different types of motorcycles out there, so usually the
videos I watch are not exact in how I will fix my motorcycle, but it gives me a model to go by.

I do not see this issue as being much different. Granted, Iceland is much much smaller than the US, but what is to stop us from taking that idea, that
model, and adjusting it to our own specific needs in order to make it work for us here at home? I hope the point I am trying to get across here makes
some sense.

You very well may be correct that here is the US we do not have the time to wait. At least I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point., but it has
to start some where. Our current path of continuing the status quo is going to come to end at some point or another, so the question we have to ask
ourselves is- would we take control back from the Government and take some responsibility for our own future? Or will we allow our future to be
decided for us by the same Establishment that brought us our miserable present?

I don't have all the answers. None of us do and I clearly do not have the answers to every point you have brought up. That being said I do believe
that not voting, and declaring this Government to be illegitimate is as good a place to start as any. At least it is the best idea I have, but I am
more than willing to hear and consider any better ideas someone else may have.

I appreciate your time and input as well. It is nice to see two people with opposite views discuss things without all the negativity. That is one of
the things that makes this site great and keeps me posting here, sadly we do not see enough of it, but hopefully our discussion can show others that
it can be done and for that I thank you as well my friend

Didn't want you to think I had stopped participating in this. I have a few things I need to do and, quite frankly, i'm still giving it a lot of
thought. This strikes me as a very worthy discussion.

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