The debate over plans for a mosque near ground zero (6 letters)

What is the mosque in New York City really about? Is it religious freedom? I think not. Why would a peaceful religion go out of its way to incite? There are plenty of places to build a mosque, so why build so close to ground zero? This is not a random site selection but a calculated jab at America and the thousands who died in the towers.

Religious freedom means they have a right to build, but to select that site conveys a tremendous amount of disrespect for America. And, frankly, given the amount of finances that are involved, how do we know who is behind this and what their agenda is? The same people who finance the terrorist groups could be financing this. Does religious freedom mean we have to stand by and allow this without knowing what is going on?

Bernie Martin, Englewood

This letter was published in the Aug. 19 edition. For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here.

President Obama is exactly right. Our country was founded on freedom of religion. We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with terrorism. The crazy men who flew planes into the World Trade Center were suicidal terrorists. Building a mosque, a church or a synagogue on private property is a basic right.
David Warren Beers, Centennial

This letter was published in the Aug. 19 edition. For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here.

Muslims of the U.S.: Stop this heinous act of building a mosque near ground zero. I sincerely defend your right to do so under the religious freedom that we all enjoy here in America. Constructing this mosque near ground zero is a slap in the face of that religious freedom. I am not a religious person, but I beg you not to carry out this inflammatory act. It will be perceived as an act of celebration for those Muslims who performed the attack on 9/11.

Nothing could do more to instill further polarization of Americans and Muslims [who are] just now starting to mend. Build a mosque anywhere in the city, but it is extremely bad taste to build it near ground zero.

David Bauer, Castle Rock

This letter was published in the Aug. 19 edition. For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here.

I am at a loss as to why the proposed mosque in New York is causing such an uprising in the media and by the GOP.

The Constitution clearly says that religious freedom is the law, just as freedom of speech and many other things are. So what is there to argue about?

This is no different than some people proposing to build a Catholic church or a synagogue or [a place for] any other religion on that site. This is a matter for the people in New York City who are responsible for zoning and the congregation of the proposed buildings, not those who seem to want to make this a political issue.
John Ruckman, Lakewood

This letter was published in the Aug. 19 edition. For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here.

The proposed Islamic cultural center planned near ground zero is intended to “build bridges” between Americans and Muslims. If Muslims want to build bridges, they would consider the outrage from Americans at the prospect of a mosque so near ground zero and build further from the site.

Think of the positive PR if a statement is made saying they have reconsidered placing their cultural center two blocks from ground zero and have found another suitable site.

If Muslims want to build bridges, they should put their money where their mouth is and give to the rebuilding of the ground zero site.

Joann Bruso, Parker

This letter was published in the Aug. 19 edition. For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here.

So it has come to this, has it? Sadly, I observe my fellow countrymen raging against the “audacity” of plans to build a Muslim mosque two blocks from hallowed ground zero. But why no similar outcry against Christian churches close to Oklahoma City’s Federal Building? After all, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian and a domestic terrorist, so why weren’t all Christians labeled terrorists?

Isn’t it ridiculous, unacceptable, even un-American, to use the horrendous action of a fringe group to justify the persecution of an entire religion?
If the horrific actions perpetrated on 9/11 had the goal of destroying America, they failed miserably. But they are beginning to succeed in an insidious campaign against the fabric of our constitution and the very core of American principles. Shame on all of us for so willingly abdicating America’s moral imperatives.

Donna Hanks, Fort Collins

This letter was published in the Aug. 19 edition. For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here.

In the words of Jon Stewart, “You could build a Catholic church near a playground but should you?”

Guest

here we go again, why does the denver post give a soap box to ignorant bigots? i understand representing both sides of an argument, but when the opposing side is just pure hatred with absolutely no reason or logic to it, do you really need to give it such a large mouth piece?

everyone against the building of the mosque is a bigot
everyone against the building of the mosque stands against the principles this nation was founded on

joann bruso doesnt seem to understand that islam is a religion and not a nationality, it might come as a shock to joann but there are quite a number of americans who are muslim, the bridge is already there…you are the one trying to knock it down.

donna hanks is under the false impression timothy mcveigh was a christian, he wasnt

“Constructing this mosque near ground zero is a slap in the face of that religious freedom.” that is the single most absurd thing i have seen in the denver post in quite awhile. not allowing a mosque being built because it was near ground zero, that would be the slap in the face to religious freedom.

or bernie martin concern that the money for the mosque might have links to terrorism, i wonder how bernie feels about investigating all mosques, churches, temples, and synagogues for ties to terrorist organizations. or just the ones close to ground zero, and only the islamic places of worship…

Anonymous

Several writers have acknowledged that the Muslims have a constitutional right to build an Islamic center in lower Manhattan, but should refrain from doing so because it will offend non-Muslims. If they are within their rights to build it, they don’t really have an obligation to spare everybody’s feelings. The people who demonstrate against Gays don’t care about the feelings of gay people. At the Columbus Day parade the Italians aren’t concerned with the feelings of Native Americans and the Native Americans don’t care if they offend the Italians. Demonstrators in front of Planned Parenthood harass all the women who enter, even though most of them are not seeking abortions. On a milder scale, mega-churches are built in neighborhoods where many of the residents resent the additional traffic. Compared with the examples I cited, an Islamic Center in a commercial neighborhood is relatively innocuous, so people like Sarah Palin and other politicians shouldn’t get their shorts in a knot over it. The only people who will ever set eyes on the Islamic Center are people who live and work in lower Manhattan. If those folks can survive the shock, the rest of us shouldn’t be too concerned.

Anonymous

So many points of view, so much need to reply. So, let’s take them one at a time. 1. You are right about one thing, everybody (about 70% of our country) will be offended by the Mosque. 2. They really don’t have a right to build anything. They have a right to practice their religion. There are 100 Mosques in NYC where they can practice their religion. 3. The attack on the WTC affected the whole nation: Gays, Italians, Native Americans, Pregnant women, blog writers. 4. Mega churches aren’t allowed to build wherever they want. I was part of a large church in Elk river MN. We had to go to a city council meeting and here from neighbors who were concerned about traffic in order to open a day care center. We were turned down. It happens all the time to churches, liquor stores, porn shops, etc… 5. The hallowed ground in lower Manhattan is sacred to the whole country. WE were attacked on 9/11. What happens at ground zero is a concern for the whole country.

Anonymous

1. I could not find results for all Americans, but the latest poll amongst New Yorkers showed a maximum of 56% opposition. 2. They do have a right to build, isn’t that what the politicians decreed? 3. It affected Muslims, too, what’s your point? So everybody’s offended, it doesn’t negate irisman’s point. 4. Mosques aren’t allowed to be built wherever they want, didn’t they need to go through city government to get premission, as well? 5. Emotional appeals aside, as several have pointed out, terrorists attacked US on 9/11. Not Islam. And the whole concept of ‘hallowed ground’ seems a little over the top to my ears.

Now, bear in mind I’m not arguing against you. I’m arguing that your rationales laid out here about your opposition to the mosque aren’t the greatest support you could have.

Should the mosque be built? I feel that, yes, opinions and offense aside, then if they choose to go ahead with their plans by all means let them. But I would echo Bauer’s call, albeit on a more rational and mature level, for them to strongly consider relocating. If their goal is to show America a moderate Islam, then show it first by heeding the wishes of Americans and respecting their sensibilities. Note that there already exists an Islamic center a handful of city blocks from the proposed site; I don’t understand why the commotion about this one except being a few hundred metres closer? But since so many seem adamant about this mosque being little more than a victory monument of terrorism, sometimes it’s better to let the crazies win just to shut them up.

Goodspkr

So it has come to this, has it? Sadly, I observe my fellow countrymen raging against the “audacity” of plans to build a Muslim mosque two blocks from hallowed ground zero. But why no similar outcry against Christian churches close to Oklahoma City’s Federal Building? After all, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian and a domestic terrorist, so why weren’t all Christians labeled terrorists?<<
Donna Hanks, Fort Collins

Errrr, Donna, Tim McVeigh was an agnostic , not a christian. He stated that "science" was his God.

In an interview with CNN Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck are the co-authors of the book "American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing." Michel answered as below.

Question from chat room: Does McVeigh have any spiritual-religious beliefs?

Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, "What if there is a heaven and hell?"

He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will — and this is using his military jargon — "adapt, improvise, and overcome." Death to him is all part of the adventure.

Hanks' comment is one the left loves to use, but it just isn't justified by actual FACTS.

Tkusterb

Do we love our freedoms in this country? Or do we just “say” we do? Are we willing to defend our freedoms even when doing so makes some of us a bit uncomfortable? This case (even though it doesn’t deserve to be) has become a test for us: do we really believe what we say in our Constitution?

Goodspkr

The First Amendment argument is getting old especially when you have Nancy Pelosi calling for an investigation into who is funding the anti-mosque debate.

“There is no question that there is a concerted effort to make this a political issue by some and I join those who have called for looking into how is this opposition to the mosque being funded,” Pelosi said.

The reaction of at least one 9/11 family was swift and probably could be extended to the President as well.

“I think it’s outrageous. She’s investigating 9/11 families whose sons were murdered on 9/11 rather than look at foreign entities that sponsor terrorism? I think she has her priorities mixed up and SHE’S LOST HER MIND,” said Jim Riches, a former firefighter who lost his son in the World Trade Center attacks.

Who “hallowed” this ground? I don’t recall the Pope or anybody conducting any ceremony sanctifying that piece of dirt. They’re not building anything. They’re repurposing an existing structure. Megachurches are often denied permits for the impact a new structure would have on existing infrastructure and the established patterns of life in the neighborhood.Attempting to portray this YMCA analog as strictly a mosque is as foolish as classifying a Las Vegas casino as a cathedral because it contains a wedding chapel.As if the typical murkan especially the typical winger murkan would ever look but the Imam of this project worked for and with the Bush administration and the FBI to seek ways to encourage moderate Muslims in the mideast to make their voices heard and the Sufi strain of Islam that leads this project is no nearer the strain of wahabi Islam out of our erstwhile ally Saudi Arabia that perpetrated that crime than your neighborhood Methodist church is to Fred Phelps.For a long time after the attack it was said that if such and such a set of conditions pertained then ” the terrorists would have won”.If this country can be seen to be so weak and frightened that at the first instance of screaming xenophobia we’ll abandon those principles we’ve preached to the rest of the world for many years especially the first of our first principles then perhaps they were right and just had the conditions wrong.

Anonymous

“Attempting to portray this YMCA analog as strictly a mosque is as foolish as classifying a Las Vegas casino as a cathedral because it contains a wedding chapel.”

This is the crux of the biscuit, and perhaps the most important line in this argument.

Goodspkr

CL, although I don’t agree with everything you’ve said, I find it to be a sane response (certainly more sane that Nancy Pelosi’s call to investigate whose complaining–talk about doing away with the First Amendment).

nic

Pssst…. your hypocrisy is showing.

You don’t get to pick and choose what parts of the 1st Amendment you’d like to follow. I don’t like that the crazies at Westboro Church are allowed to protest the funerals of deceased soldiers. But the 1st Amendment gives them that right. You may not like an Islamic pool built two blocks from Ground Zero. But the 1st Amendment gives them that right.

Goodspkr

Hmmm, I recall one president saying “in a larger sense, we can not dedicate — we can not consecrate — we can not hallow — this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.” He was talking about a different site, but I think his rationale still applies.

Goodspkr

Here’s an interesting piece of the political ramifications of Obama’s Speech. Enjoy

Obama’s Point of No Return

By J.R. Dunn

There comes a moment in a failing presidency where the incumbent, through some single gesture, action, or statement, crosses a certain line from beyond which there is no return. Through his own will and behavior he so underlines his failings, so frames his negative image, that no further action can ever erase it. Fate, accident, and circumstance have nothing to do with it. It is the president himself who puts the period at the end of his own sentence………………………….

With Obama, we have an abundance of riches: the multiple vacations, the legal harassment of the state of Arizona on behalf of illegals, the clownish response to the Gulf oil blowout. But when historians come to select the moment when Obama went over the edge of the world, I think they’ll find the great Iftar mosque speech of August 13, 2010 hard to beat.

“So we have the comedic spectacle of Maureen Dowd — Maureen Dowd! — writing in The New York Times that “It’s time for W. to weigh in,” explaining that the former President “understands” — when was the last time Maureen Dowd accused George W. Bush of understanding anything? ”

Republicans have seized on another phony issue that cynically appeals to religious bias for political advantage. In the first place it’s not a mosque but a community center. Have you ever heard of a mosque that features a kitchen, a pool and a gymnasium? And in the second place, it’s not at ground zero. It’s over two blocks away and around a corner. You can’t even see the location from ground zero. Does anyone really think that this community center is going to detract from the “hallowed ground” of a neighborhood that now features porno shops and strip joints?

nic

If this was actually about 9/11 families and not a political distraction then the Republicans in Congress would not have rejected the health bill for 9/11 responders who have been sickened by the World Trade Center rescue and clean up efforts. They care about politics and not people, elections season is upon up and xenophobia is the soup de jour.

And we all know that it is not a “former firefighter who lost his son” who is funding this faux fervor. But I can think of a certain Aussie who could and has a fleet of talking heads to get the message out.

Goodspkr

Errr, Rom, you keep saying that, but it bunk.

“A leader of the Hamas terror group yesterday jumped into the emotional debate on the plan to construct a mosque near Ground Zero — insisting Muslims “have to build” it there.

“We have to build everywhere,” said Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas and the organization’s chief on the Gaza Strip.

“In every area we have, [as] Muslim[s], we have to pray, and this mosque is the only site of prayer,” he said on “Aaron Klein Investigative Radio” on WABC.

Rom you do have your talking points which you hold on to even when that really aren’t operable anymore.

Goodspkr

You know, Rom, I would never ask a question like “Have you ever heard of a mosque that features a kitchen, a pool and a gymnasium? ” without first googling it to see if any such mosques exists. I googled “Mosque with gymnasiums” and the second entry was the one below (the first was the proposed one in NY)

“The East London Mosque, situated in the inner London Borough of Tower Hamlets between Whitechapel and Aldgate, serves the UK’s largest Muslim community.[1] It lies near the edge of the City of London, the capital’s busy business area, and just a couple of miles from the fast-expanding London Docklands. It is one of the largest mosques in United Kingdom in terms of capacity holding up to 4500 people.[2] The mosques has two large halls, a gallery, classrooms, offices and a retail unit. In 2004 it was expanded by the addition of the adjacent London Muslim Centre which has two multipurpose halls, a seminar suite, a nursery, classrooms, a fitness centre, a small Islamic library, a radio station, retail units and offices. In 2009 a further significant expansion commenced”

So the answer to your question is YES.

Anonymous

nic, in this case I don’t think goodspkr is arguing against their right to build. As he and several level-headed others have put it, just because they have they right doesn’t mean it’s right. I believe he, and myself, are suggesting that, while yes they can build this mosque if they so choose, they should strongly reconsider a relocation, especially if their goal is truly to show America a more moderate, respectful, and peaceful Islam.

Anonymous

Well, to be fair in a sense the hijackers weren’t really Muslim, either. By the laws of Islam in the Qor’an, their actions and words decried them to be in wilful rejection of the faith. Nonetheless your point still stands.

Goodspkr

Nic, are you really trying to use the rejection of the 9/11 responders as an example of how the Repubicans care about politics and not people????????

Really???? This was a political set up. The Democrats brought it to the floor in a way that required a 2/3 majority to try to blame the Repubicans for the defeat. But if the Democrats really worryed about the people they could have easily passed it under the regular rules.

Michael Bloomberg called the vote “outrageous.” He slammed both the Republicans who voted against the bill and the DEMOCRATS who brought it to the floor under the special rules that required a two-thirds majority.

I think the liberals love certain freedoms while conservative love other freedoms. To each side certain freedoms make us uncomfortable.

The left really has a problem with the second amendment. Conservative don’t much like freedom of speech when someone burns an American flag (I’m one of those, but I recognize that burning a flag is poltical speech, the exact kind our forefathers were protecting).

The mosque near ground zero is a test for everyone. Proponents and opponents of it. Do they have the right to build it? Yes. Is it right for them to do so? Probably not.

Mary

I highly recommend Amy Goodman’s column “The Mosque Debate” from today (8/19) at http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_15818551 which points out that
1) Muslim Americans died as a result of the terrorist actions on 9/11 (she specifically mentions one of the first responders, but as I understand it, nationals from a number of countries which have Islam as the primary religion worked in the Twin Towers and died alongside those who were practicing Christians and Jews – as well as atheists and agnostics). My hunch is (although I have not seen anything to support it) that at least as many practicing Muslims were killed by the terrorists as there were terrorists.
2) It is not AT ground zero – it is 2 blocks away. Depending on the size of the blocks as well as the other intervening structures in those 2 blocks, it might not even be seen from ground zero.
3) IT IS NOT A MOSQUE! It is a “cultural center” that will be open to the public and which, according to that article: “Beyond having a gym, the Cordoba House will house a pool, restaurant, 500-person auditorium, 9/11 memorial, MULTIFAITH CHAPEL (caps are mine), office and conference space, and prayer space.” I have heard the arguments that folks have made that this is a business area and members of Islam have mosques they can go to “in the area”, but have yet to hear how far away those are – and everyone seems to (conveniently perhaps) forget that Moslems are supposed to pray 5 TIMES A DAY and at least 2 of those are during the work day (my best guess is that no business wants to be mandated to set aside a room for those prayers if any of the employees are Moslem), not just once a week and on religious holidays.

IF any of the lies and half-truths being spread by the far right (and Islam haters – and I am not a member of that faith) were true, I might see an issue with the building – but they are patently false and intended to rile up folks.

Dave

“So it has come to this, has it? Sadly, I observe my fellow countrymen raging against the “audacity” of plans to build a Muslim mosque two blocks from hallowed ground zero. But why no similar outcry against Christian churches close to Oklahoma City’s Federal Building? After all, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian and a domestic terrorist, so why weren’t all Christians labeled terrorists?” Donna Hanks, Fort Collins

This is the same sad argument used by the PC crowd when Major Hasan killed 13 people in Texas. Christian killers and terrorists just happen to be Christian. I don’t remember them killing in the name of Christianity like muslims kill in the name of islam.
We all know the mosque can legally be built near ground zero. It would be poor taste if it was built there. Political correctness at it’s worst. I doubt the mayor of New York would allow a Walmart or a corporate HQ of a mortgage or insurance company to be buitl on that site.

JohnCOS

So are Japanese cars driven at Pearl Harbor? Or is that long ago in history that it no longer matters?

Anonymous

Just to clear up some inaccuracies regarding the salah (the Islamic prayer): it need not be performed in a mosque, no indeed in a special room. Is it meritorious to perform the salah in a mosque or in company with other Muslims, it is entirely permissible to be performed alone. Many Muslims pray at work or school, being allowed to by law, by simply taking a 15-minute break and finding a quiet, discreet corner in which to pray. They need no special room. And for those Muslims who do choose to go to a mosque, the nearest extant one to the proposed Park51 site is less than 2 miles, or about a 10-minute walk.

Goodspkr

Oooh, Mary, you were being reasonable until your final paragraph (IF any of the lies and half-truths being spread by the far right (and Islam haters ) and then you blew it.

Why do you find it necessary to call people names?

Now for your questions.

1. 28 Muslims died who were not terrorists. So your guess is correct.
2. It is two blocks, 600 feet or so from ground zero and is visible down certain streets.
3. The Mosque denial is just plain foolish. Hamas endorsed it calling it a Mosque. It has a small prayer area large enough for 2,000 people to pray. In the Catholic religion a 2,000 seat church is frequently called a Cathedral.

Now as I go through that I don’t see any mention of a MULTIFAITH CHAPEL (caps are yours). Do you? I do believe Amy Goodman is probably interpreting a muslim prayer space as a multifaith chapel.

In the frequently asked questions we find out “Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years.” But when they ask why they don’t move the mosque a bit further away (say one mile) from ground zero the response is “No one should be driven out of his or her own neighborhood – especially for religious reasons. It is unconstitutional and un-American.”

If your posting hadn’t been so full of half-truths and out right incorrect information you might have made a much stronger case.

Rdday91191

I have become increasingly depressed by the hate that has saturated this once great country. Various groups around have gone public proudly declaring their hate and lack of tolerance of one group or another. Christians hate homosexuals. Whites hate blacks. Jews hate Palestinians. GOP hates Dems. Conservatives hate liberals. Twin Tower victims hate Islam. Arizona hates mexicans. Palin runs around the country making a personal fortune spewing hate and division, along with Beck and Limbaugh. News outlets (print/tv) spin their reporting which rarely seeks the truth or gives a balanced viewpoint. “Give me the facts, nothing but the facts”.Congress is completly worthless. Willing to deadlock to achieve a political victory. Or worse, to pass legislation that burdens the average Joe public in exchange for the political/financial support of large corporations. We have the most neo-conservative supreme court ever. Many of our young only see the future of a hugh cash flow waiting for them at any cost. Willing to strip this country naked. What have we been telling ourselves so that we can look ourselves in the mirror? Who out there believes police can get away with murder/abuse? I do. Politicians can refer to “business as usual” (Blagojevich/Delay), and see themselves vindicated. Our govt. allows BP to destroy our gulf and then tells us everthing if fine. “NO Oil, Seafood is good to eat”. Why would I beleive them? They told me there were WMD’s also. The warmongers profess the U.S. is the police of the world. Yet, we can’t even manage to take care of ourselves. Death panels. Birthers. OMG! Will it ever end? No, I don’t believe so. I see this country and it’s people continuing to spiral downward and out of control. I’m 59, white female. I’ve had cancer and now must deal with kidney failure. Having been without ins. do to genetic illnesses. I have extensively traveled throughout the U.S., Europe and Asia and have never in all my years seen it so bad. I must admit I too have lost my tolerance, for those who are intolerant and I wonder what is the point of continuing on.

Romulus

As usual, goodspkr, you respond with a deluge of totally irrelevant information. All you managed to find was a mosque with an associated community center. And by the way, where’s the kitchen and the swimming pool? It’s clear that as described the primary purpose of the building in New York will be as a community center. Many airports have small chapels for the convenience of travelers. Does that make them churches?

JohnCOS

I was thinking about this some more. Maybe we can send all Muslims to “relocation camps”, would that make all you paranoid and hateful people happy? I thought we would have learned our lession 70 years ago, but obviously not. Hate is hate is hate, and all is wrong. To hate Muslims because of what an extremely small percentage do goes against everything all religions and the U.S. stand for. Get over your big bad selves, stop being paranoid and get on with your lives.

Goodspkr

I’m sorry Rom, but I’ve never been to an airport where their chapel can accomodate 2000 people. Obviously you have. BTW which airport is that?

If you are insistent on being obtuse about this and demand that we should believe those who want to call this a community center (although that didn’t fool Hamas–who probably are a better judge of what a mosque is than you are), no one is going to change your mind. But come on, Rom, even you don’t really believe that.

Goodspkr

Hmmm, someone who sees people with a different view than themselves as paranoid and hateful and then assumes they want to move others to “relocation camps” appears to be out of touch with reality. If I were you John, I would seek some help.

Guest

here we go again, why does the denver post gives a soap box to ignorant bigots? i understand representing both sides of an argument, but when the opposing side is just pure hatred with absolutely no reason or logic to it, do you really need to give it such a large mouth piece?

everyone against the building of the mosque is a bigot
everyone against the building of the mosque stands against the principles this nation was founded on

joann bruso doesnt seem to understand that islam is a religion and not a nationality, it might come as a shock to joann but there are quite a number of americans who are muslim, the bridge is already there…you are the one trying to knock it down.

donna hanks is under the false impression timothy mcveigh was a christian, he wasnt

“Constructing this mosque near ground zero is a slap in the face of that religious freedom.” that is the single most absurd thing i have seen in the denver post in quite awhile. not allowing a mosque being built because it was near ground zero, that would be the slap in the face to religious freedom.

or bernie martin concern that the money for the mosque might have links to terrorism, i wonder how bernie feels about investigating all mosques, churches, temples, and synagogues for ties to terrorist organizations. or just the ones close to ground zero, and only the islamic places of worship…

Goodspkr

HR. I’m not familiar with any Las Vegas Casinos that have a wedding chapel that will hold 2000 people. Since you are using this as an anology, I’m guessing either you do know of one, or you don’t really understand what you are talking about.

Anonymous

In response to number 2. Why do people on the left give us rights that aren’t enumerated in the constitution. I do remember something about a right to practice ones religion. Can you help me with the passage from the Constitution where we are given the right to build anywhere we want.

In response to 3. so, do you agree with me? It sounds like it. I didn’t list Muslims, but they were affected as well. You are aware that there are Muslims who have stated that the Mosque shouldn’t be built there. “For most Americans, 9/11 remains as an open wound, and anything associated with Islam, even for Americans who want to understand Islam — to have an Islamic center with so much publicity is like rubbing salt in open wounds,” said Akbar Ahmed,
Not much more needs to be said. but, people who don’t want a manger scene in the public square at Christmas are all over letting a Mosque be built at ground zero. Go figure.

Anonymous

#2, if you’d read, I stated they have the right because the local government gave them the right. If they did not have it, then there would be no debate over this issue.

And yes, I agree with you; but the fact that people from all different groups are offended does not negate the legality. I don’t think that there is any legal argument against this mosque – it’s entirely an ethical question, and the right thing to do would be for the mosque, in a display of the tolerance typical of true moderate Islam, would be to relocate. But legally they can do what they want.

Anonymous

Hey, Goodspkr, why is a community center not OK, but a strip joint and bookstore are OK?
And quoting Hamas approval is laughable. The KKK, in many of its incarnations, claims to be Christian. I doubt you’d quote them defending a controversial Christian group.
Has it ever occurred to you that a religion with over 1 billion people is not monolithic? Has it ever occurred to you that there isn’t a single Muslim leader who can claim to speak for all Muslims? Has it ever occurred to you that there are Muslims sects who are pacifist?
No, of course not. The Saudi Arabian terrorists claimed their action was in the name of Islam, so any building for Muslims automatically is a den of terrorism and an affront to the memory of 9/11? The response I have to that line of thinking is not allowed, but it is an 8-letter word referring to solid waste matter exiting from the south end of north-facing male bovines.
The farther away people are from NYC, the more they’re in a lather about it. Hmmm …
It’s bad enough that Republicans, and their comrades in arms, the talk-radio industry, took a local zoning issue and made a national spectacle out of it (so much for respect for local decision-making) What’s even worse is that Democratic public officials are falling for the Republican tactic. A better approach would be “What in God’s creation does a NYC mosque have to do with Virginia, or Arizona, or Colorado, etc?”.

Anonymous

Gad, even I’m not immune. Community center, not mosque. Although if it were a mosque, it wouldn’t change a thing. But apparently to the critics, “mosque” sounds more ominous.”Did you hear? Muslims are building a mosque!””Eeeeeek! A mosque?! No, not a mosque! Run for your lives! Hide the women and children! Withdraw your savings! The End Is At Hand!”As opposed to”Did you hear? Roman Catholics are building a cathedral!”*** silence and yawns ***

Anonymous

They have “permission” to build. That’s all. My point is: we have to quit talking about the “right” to do everything. The concept that we have rights has been expanded to include rights, like health care, not spelled out in the Constitution.

Goodspkr

Wow, Pete, first we go to strawmen arguments (why is a community center, The KKK) followed by questions and answers where you provide both.

You know what they say about opinions, but what I gather from yours is that you believe that the opponents of a mosque are in a lather about it, but you aren’t.

But I don’t see the opponents of building a mosque ( you seem to flip back and forth between community center and mosque) accusing the supporters of hate inspired wanting to round up people into relocation camps.

Quite frankly, I do believe the pro-Cordoba people aren’t really interested in the actual issue, but just want to build up their own sense of goodness, by putting down others. Of course that’s just my opinion and we all have them.

Goodspkr

Pete, you should call it mosque so you don’t sound like a gullible fool. It does have a “prayer space” which happens to be big enough for 2000 people. That’s not a chapel at the airport that’s a mosque.

Now obviously your statement about ‘Eeeeeek’ was an attempt to be funny. We aren’t talking about something frightening, but rather something that is disrespectful to the 9/11 families and to Americans who watched the destruction on their TVs. Far from being a place of reconciliation, it is a something that is much more likely to drive a wedge between muslims and nonmuslims.

Yes, yes, yes, we all know that you are on a higher plane so that you don’t think this is disrespectful and you think we need to put our hand out and say “please, go right ahead and build your ‘community’ center, because it is not really controversial at all.” We know that the proponents are so kind and giving that well even if they have to call the 70% of Americans who have troubles with this names and tell them that they are unAmerican, you will do so well, just because you know what is right.

And the next time I speak of arrogance on the part of most of the people who take your position, please don’t feign ignorance and say “I don’t see any arrogance.” We already know that you don’t see reality too well.

Anonymous

Potentially inaccurate, thor. We cannot look at the Constitution from the perspective of expressio unius est exclusio alterius. Simply because certain rights are not enumerated does not mean the people do not have them. In fact, the 9th Amendment states just that: any right not enumerated in the Constitution shall not be construed to be denied to be retained by the people. In other words, not stating we have the right to build any building wherever we choose or the right to access to healthcare does not imply we do not have that right.

Of course, neither you nor I are legal scholars so this is merely my lay understanding of the situation, but I don’t think it is valid to say that they lack the right to build this mosque. I think very few people are honestly arguing from a legal basis against this mosque: it’s entirely an ethical question, as I have pointed out earlier.

Anonymous

I agree that it is an ethical question. However, I am more willing to state that they have a right to build then I am that we have a right to health care. But, that’s an argument for another day.

JohnCOS

Your reply is so bizare and makes no sense that I can not think of what to comeback with.

Rudedog1953

I don’t know that I would label everyone who is against building the mosque as a bigot. But I think the most vocal probably are. They use the typical rightwing methods of fear, mistrust, and loyalty to America. Same way the Iraq war started. And of course, the birthers and the belief some have that Obama is a Muslim are all cards played by the rightwing. It’s just another political ploy by the right to try and win more seats in November. It may or may not work. It could backfire as well. But you made some very strong points.

Goodspkr

“everyone against the building of the mosque is a bigot
everyone against the building of the mosque stands against the principles this nation was founded on”

What a ridiculous statement. Don’t you know that all generalizations are wrong? (think about it–it may take you a moment or two to get the irony of what I just said).

I do believe what you’ve just said is that anyone who disagrees with YOU is a bigot. What does that make you? (hint here is the definition of a bigot ‘a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own”

At this one is just for you an any of the other holier than thou people.

I just came back from the library. I saw a book “A Patriot’s Almanac.” Not knowing anything but the title would you buy such a book? Why or why not?

Goodspkr

John, your best bet is not to try. Anyone who talks about Japanese cars in Pearl Harbor does not have a firm grasp on reality. If I were you John, I would seek some help.

Anonymous

“But why no similar outcry against Christian churches close to Oklahoma City’s Federal Building? After all, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian and a domestic terrorist, so why weren’t all Christians labeled terrorists?”

(1) Did a church build such a church…..or is this a made-up point….that may actually argue AGAINST the point you were hoping for? If no CHURCH was built, then why should a MOSQUE be built?

(2) Timothy McVeigh was NOT a Christian when he blew up the Federal Building. You will find NOTHING in the Four Gospels or in any of Paul’s Letters that justifies what McVeigh did. In FACT, you will find the OPPOSITE: McVeigh was NOT acting as a follower of Christ at all.

(3) Most people understand #2….and so do NOT foolishly throw all Christians into the cesspool McVeigh lived in.

The SAME can NOT be said of those whose Quran CLEARLY states the possition that the “Radical Muslim Terrorists” hold: That those who do NOT convert to Islam SHALL be put to the sword…..which is WHY they use a sword to cut through their hostages necks.

Those of us who have a Quran (I have 2) have read those clear passages….and they say what they say.

And THAT puts Muslims in a position that Christians do not have to be in. No Christian has to black-out or tear out passages from the Bible…..since the Bible is basically chronological and everything in the Bible can be understood if it is put in its proper perspective.

But the Quran is NOT written in chronological order….nor by subject matter. It’s almost impossible to say what passages came after others…..with the exception that it can be argued that the biography in the Quran itself would suggest that a more “military” Mohammed came after the “less military” one….and that certain passages can thusly be assumed to have been written AFTER the more….peaceful ones.

Thus a Muslim would have to accept the idea that their book is….faulty in certain areas…..can be blacked-out….ignored….areas that the Radical Muslims do not think is faulty at all.

Chronologically, the Radical Muslim would look at those passages that were perhaps written later in Mohammed’s life……while the Mainstream Muslims would have to ignore them.

And that begs the question: Would a Christian ignore the New Testament? CAN a Christian ignore the NT?

Then why should Muslims….discount….writings that can be aassumed to have been written during Mohammed’s military life? Obviously, some Muslims don’t. And ‘we’…non-Radical Muslims….call them the “Radical Muslims.”

Anonymous

I can’t believe I’m getting into this with you, but here goes:

I have too read the Qor’an, probably more critically than you have. Probably because unlike you, I have studied it alongside and under the direction of Muslims and imams. The verses to which you refer, 9:5 and 9:29, are but two verses in the entire book. And they do not say kill all non-Muslims. The term ‘infidel’ refers to polytheists and atheists – Christians and Jews are, in Islam, people of the book, and free to worship God as they do because (did you know?) IT’S THE SAME GOD! Yes, under Islamic rule they have to pay a tax for not being Muslim, but that’s far less violent than being beheaded. Atheists, however, may be in trouble should the Umayyads ever rise up again, but that’s not really any less than Christians would have done (and did) to ‘infidels’ a few hundred years ago.

And while we’re on the topic of the Qor’an having two violent verses about murdering people of other religions: Deuteronomy 13:7-19 and 17:2-5, Leviticus 24:10-6, Exodus 22:10, 2 Chronicles 15:12-3, Romans 1:24-32, Jeremiah 48:10. Oh, didn’t you know? The Christian God tells his followers to kill nonbelievers by the sword. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, Rob. Don’t speak of what Islam ‘really’ is if you have no idea what you’re talking about.

One final note: Your hypocrisy is blatant. McVeigh wasn’t Christian because his actions went against the Bible, but Islamic terrorists are Muslim even though their actions go against the Qor’an? Double standard, my friend.

Rudedog1953

Well my first reply evidently didn’t make it past the monitor. So here goes again.
You’re boring spike! You are the bigot. You are long winded and add nothing to these boards. You regularly cite websites to prove your delusional points, and they are nothing but rightwingnut sites. You remind me of robtf and bellle. You need a life and serious help! I skip past your posts like robtf’s but you’re obsessed here. You are truly pathetic, spike!

EG

You nailed it, every word you say is true.

EG

The hypocrisy is even more blatant coming from a death cultist who has often espoused violence against those he hates. Any resemblance between the preacher and an actual Christian is purely nonexistent.

US Navy Vet

Are you kidding Ms. Hanks? Timothy McVeigh did nothing out of any sense of duty or affiliation to Christianity. You might as well blame blond haired men for the Oklahoma City bombing. That has as much to do with that attack.

THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER AND PENTAGON WAS FROM RADICAL ISLAMISTS WHO KILLED INNOCENTS IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AS THEIR PRIMARY – AND ONLY – MOTIVATION. What is so hard to understand about this. For the love of God, these people killed in the name of their religion. It is totally and absolutely different from the Oklahoma City attack. One was in the name of hatred and politics and the other is in the name of the God of Islam.

THIS IS WHY THE MOSQUE, CULTURAL CENTER, OR ANYTHING ISLAMIC NEAR THE WORLD TRADE CENTER SITE IS SO GROTESQUE. THIS IS A PRETTY SIMPLE ISSUE PEOPLE. THIS RELIGION WAS THE TOTAL MOTIVATION IN AN OVERT WAY FOR THE DEATH OF THREE THOUSAND PEOPLE. ANY MUSLIM WORTH A BUCKET OF WARM, WATER, FEELS SOME LEVEL OF SHAME ABOUT THE ATTACKS OF 9/11. Not saying every muslim is guilty or supports the attack. Yes, too many do quietly assent to this violence. Too few speak out against it.

This is just the reality. The mosque or anything islamic near the site of an islamic terrorist victory is harshly disgusting to the memory of those that died brutal deaths there.

It is legal for them to put something there, but it is also very legal for a zoning board to say, uhmmm, nope. Not going to happen. That is why zoning commissions hold public hearings people. Sometimes it takes the public to get involved and explain the heartache or problem with something being situated in a certain neighborhood.

We are not giving up free speech just to have human decency by moving the site at least five more blocks away.

Anonymous

Where is bellle?

Anonymous

2 blocks, 5 blocks, 10 blocks, etc. Is that the measurement of human decency to you?

IT’S NOT EVEN A MOSQUE!

BTW, there were Muslims in the twin towers when it was destroyed. Are their lost lives any less tragic than anyone else that died that day?

Tkusterb

The extent to which we cherish our most treasured freedoms and beliefs (speech, religion, etc.) is reflected in how willingly we will defend them when to do so is somewhat uncomfortable.

Goodspkr

Come on, Bleeth. Of course it’s a mosque. It has a prayer area for 2,000 people.

But the Imam says it is supposed to be a place of reconcilation. With so much of the American public against it (I know, the people against it are indecent barbarians), how in the world does this project help to reconcile the people of America?

It doesn’t, you know it doesn’t, so if the Imam was really serious about reconcilation, he would look for a different place for his “community center, mosque” (Calling it a community center rather than a mosque is somewhat like the Obama Administration calling the requirement to get health insurance a mandate rather than a tax except when they went to court and then they called it a tax (since they didn’t think they had the power to mandate it)).

There were 28 Muslims killed on 9/11 besides the terrorists themselves. Losing their lives doesn’t change who did the killing.

Goodspkr

TK, we are not looking to amend the first amendment (perhaps we should look at a “fairness doctrine” for any building that projects more than five stories and uses valuable air space….. okay I’m really reaching to try to be ironic. I go for quantity not quality of my jokes).

Goodspkr

What in the world are you talking about?

Goodspkr

Rude, your name fits you very well. If you don’t want to read what I write, don’t. What I like about folks such as yourself, you find facts or questionable facts cited on links seem to be less convincing to you than name calling you regularly and others regularly engage in. I know it isn’t as much fun to just spew, but if you want to talk about adding nothing to the conversation, I suggest you reread your own postings.

Goodspkr

Yes, EG, you are also one who absolutely writes their opinion with regard to the facts.

Goodspkr

I find that most of the liberals on these boards are not very intellectually curious. I use a line in some of my talks, “If you can’t stand the answer, don’t ask the question.” It’s meant to be funny, but I do believe this is what many of the name calling liberals live by.

Let’s look at this issue about the ground zero mosque.

Here are the basic arguments by the left giving over and over again.

1. It’s not on ground zero, it’s two blocks away (the second part normally isn’t quoted)
2. It isn’t a mosque but a community center and a center of reconciliation
3. Muslims died too on 9/11.
4. We have a first amendment that grants freedom of religion
5. Anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

This is a very limited argument and shows a real lack of looking at anything other than the superficial. This is why I find you not very intellectually curious. If you actually wanted to have a discussion, you would find out that Imam Rauf has been trying to get a different kind of Muslim meeting place since 1998 (before 9/11—gives him some credibility. In 2003 he tried to get one about 100 blocks from ground zero, but couldn’t get any financing). At the same time, he hasn’t been able to raise the money for such a place. I’m guessing that he refused to say he won’t take money from Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. because he’s only got $100,000 out of 100,000,000 he needs. And I would also bet that when he talks to people in the Mid East he will emphasize it is a mosque (adapted for America) and it is right at ground zero to help raise money.

Now this could have been an interesting discussion. But go ahead and don’t bother to read anything but the basic new story and you will end up like we have here.

Once in a while a left wing poster will post a link. I will go to the link to determine if it is credible and what are the facts. But it seems most of you can’t be bothered.

Anonymous

Oh, how wise and noble you are.
Goodskr, you have your mind made up in advance as often as liberals do. I can’t believe that you have never read a liberal argument that is intellectually sound.
Liberals are intellectually non-curious? Why don’t you come right out and call us stupid for not knowing that we are always wrong and your side is always right.
How many people out there are pointing out that maybe Rauf has a bad history in the fund-raising department, or other financial/zoning/building issues, … and how many people simply are screaming that no mosque shall EVER be built anywhere near (as in the continental USA) to the 9/11 site.
Is ten blocks a sufficient distance? 20? 100? The middle of the Atlantic Ocean?
This is a means whereby talk-show radio hosts (talk about intellectually challenged and non-curious!), politicians, and others can distract people from real issues while demeaning their opponents as pro-terrorist.

Goodspkr

Peter, peter, peter.

“I can’t believe that you have never read a liberal argument that is intellectually sound. ”

Pray tell where you read that? I did say most of the people on the left (not all) tend to write shallow comments.

“Liberals are intellectually non-curious? Why don’t you come right out and call us stupid for not knowing that we are always wrong and your side is always right.”

I didn’t say that either. I said many on these boards are not curious enough to actually get the facts and argue them. Stupid is not a word I would use, but indolent is one I would.

“How many people out there are pointing out that maybe Rauf has a bad history in the fund-raising department, or other financial/zoning/building issues, … and how many people simply are screaming that no mosque shall EVER be built anywhere near (as in the continental USA) to the 9/11 site.
Is ten blocks a sufficient distance? 20? 100? The middle of the Atlantic Ocean?”

I don’t care how many people are screaming one way or another. If you want to express an opinion, it might be nice to have it be educated. I like your 10 blocks, 20 blocks…the middle of the Atlantic Ocean comment. A lot of noise with almost no substance.

“This is a means whereby talk-show radio hosts (talk about intellectually challenged and non-curious!), politicians, and others can distract people from real issues while demeaning their opponents as pro-terrorist.”

Nonsense. Another tenant of the left. Talk radio is the devil. LOL. What are the real issues we are distracting people from? The balooning deficits? The failure of the healthcare bill before it’s be implemented (the Democrats are already talking about amending it)? The disasterous election coming up for the Democrats?

Rudedog1953

You replied to me and started the name calling. I replied to Guest. Yet, you have to chime in with your childish remarks. What’s the matter spike? Truth hurt? I don’t read your posts, but it’s hard to bypass yours and robtff as you two dominate EVERY subject. Look at your reply to EG. You spew your opinions as fact. Anybody challenges that, and you resort to the name calling. You’re still boring spike!
My first post didn’t make it through. It was the same as this…..so let’s see if the moderator allows this. I don’t see why it shouldn’t.

Anonymous

I hate to break the news to you but the only people that are against it are the ones that preach the constitution ad nauseum when referring to their own religious freedoms then cry foul when Muslims choose to use their constitutionals rights for that very same purpose.

Also, you lumping all Muslims in one category is just another example of how black and white your world is. BTW, trying to compare the health insurance issue with this is like comparing apples and oranges. We know you hate the Obama administration and this has absolutely nothing to do with the COMMUNITY CENTER THAT’S NOT BEING BUILT AT GROUND ZERO.

Goodspkr

Bleeth, you keep telling yourself whatever you want. Since 65% of the American public are against it, that’s an awful lot of people who “preach the constitution ad nauseum when referring to their own religious freedoms then cry foul when Muslims choose to use their constitutionals rights for that very same purpose.”

The health insurance issue is a good comparison tfor the use of language in this debate. Calling it a Community Center, not a mosque, is like the Obama administration calling the requirement to buy health insurance a mandate, not a tax. The problem is that when the Justice Department went to court they called it a tax. And I suspect when Imam Rauf goes to Saudi Arabia, etc. to raise funds, his community center will be a Mosque.

I don’t hate the Obama administration. I actually support their use of drones in Pakistan and the surge in Afghanistan. I don’t support them on any of their domestic initiatives as they are bad for the country.

I find the stance by the Obama Administration on the Mosque, immigration, healthcare, deficit spending, the stimulus, etc. to be the most politically stupid series of positions that I have ever seen. In everyone of the cases I’ve mentioned the American public is against their postion about 2 to 1.

Have a nice day, Bleeth. I know I will.

Anonymous

Even if your so called statistics were true it only means that 65% of the American People are hypocrites. The majority of people at one time in this country believed in slavery as well. Did that make it right?

Bringing Obama into the picture is just another way for you to take pot shots at him, it has nothing to do with the proposed COMMUNITY CENTER, (not mosque)

I will have a nice day, thanks.

Goodspkr

No, bleeth, a majority of people in the South believed in slavery when this country was founded and that did not make right.

But you and other Leftists calling 65% of the American people hypocrites is just plain foolish. Even liberal former DNC Chair HOWARD DEAN was moved to point out the left was “DEMONIZING some fairly decent people.” In an implicit acknowledgment of the most common slur made by mosque proponents, he added that “sixty-five percent of the people in this country [the proportion opposing construction of the mosque at Ground Zero] ARE NOT RIGHT-WING BIGOTS.”

What makes this such a great issues for Conservatives is that the more you folks struggle and call anyone disagreeing with you names, the more support you lose. Next time you go to see your representative or your party’s nominee to be your representative ask him or her their opinion of the Mosque at ground zero, oops, I mean the community center near ground zero. I think whoever is running will be a hypocrite by your standards.

Goodspkr

No, bleeth, a majority of people in the South believed in slavery when this country was founded and that did not make right.

But you and other Leftists calling 65% of the American people hypocrites is just plain foolish. Even liberal former DNC Chair HOWARD DEAN was moved to point out the left was “DEMONIZING some fairly decent people.” In an implicit acknowledgment of the most common slur made by mosque proponents, he added that “sixty-five percent of the people in this country [the proportion opposing construction of the mosque at Ground Zero] ARE NOT RIGHT-WING BIGOTS.”

What makes this such a great issues for Conservatives is that the more you folks struggle and call anyone disagreeing with you names, the more support you lose. Next time you go to see your representative or your party’s nominee to be your representative ask him or her their opinion of the Mosque at ground zero, oops, I mean the community center near ground zero. I think whoever is running will be a hypocrite by your standards.

Goodspkr

No, bleeth, a majority of people in the South believed in slavery when this country was founded and that did not make right.

But you and other Leftists calling 65% of the American people hypocrites is just plain foolish. Even liberal former DNC Chair HOWARD DEAN was moved to point out the left was “DEMONIZING some fairly decent people.” In an implicit acknowledgment of the most common slur made by mosque proponents, he added that “sixty-five percent of the people in this country [the proportion opposing construction of the mosque at Ground Zero] ARE NOT RIGHT-WING BIGOTS.”

What makes this such a great issues for Conservatives is that the more you folks struggle and call anyone disagreeing with you names, the more support you lose. Next time you go to see your representative or your party’s nominee to be your representative ask him or her their opinion of the Mosque at ground zero, oops, I mean the community center near ground zero. I think whoever is running will be a hypocrite by your standards.

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