Like the path but would bind it more tightly to the theme and loosen up the restriction on step V by making it an effect rather than a trick.

Fleeting Shadows I: You gain darkvision I (see page 233). As long as you're not in direct sunlight you gain a +5 bonus with Sneak checks.Fleeting Shadows II: As long as you're not in direct sunlight you gain an extra sneak attack die and may cast Pass without Trace once per scene.Fleeting Shadows III: As long as you're not in direct sunlight you may cast Freedom of Movement and Invisibility once per scene.Fleeting Shadows IV: As long as you're not in direct sunlight you gain an extra sneak attack die and may cast Shadow Walk once per scene.Fleeting Shadows V: As long as you're not in direct sunlight when you inflict sneak attack damage you may choose to reduce the number of sneak attack dice you will roll to inflict the blinded condition on the target for an number of rounds equal to the number of dice you forego rolling.

Why is Shadowstrike I a stance? It can't even be called a stance, really, because you can't actually stand in it - you make a run action and then it ends. It very clearly a run trick. EDIT: I also don't like the "Declare it a round earlier and make a check then" business - it really breaks the game's flow.

I'd reword All Alone In The Night to be more like the Monk's Path of the Enlightened - as in "If you've completed this path you instead gain a melee or covert feat". The path is far more flavoursome then "Have a feat". I also prefer

Why is Shadowstrike I a stance? It can't even be called a stance, really, because you can't actually stand in it - you make a run action and then it ends. It very clearly a run trick. EDIT: I also don't like the "Declare it a round earlier and make a check then" business - it really breaks the game's flow.

It's a stance so it will work with the Charge chain and its run tricks.

Let's see

Shadowstrike I: At level 2, you gain a stance.Shadowstrike (Stance): Entering this stance renders you flatfooted until you leave it. At the start of your initiative count while in this stance you may target a single opponent you are aware of and make a Hide check as a free action; an error on this check may be activated for 1 less AD than normal. The Hide check must be immediately followed by a standard Run action, ignoring any modifiers to speed or distance imposed by the intervening terrain, that places you adjacent to the target. The Hide check must factor in the distance travelled, and failing it forces you out of the stance once you are adjacent to your target where you remain flatflooted.Shadowstrike II: At level 7, when making the Hide check required of the stance you no longer include movement or noise modifiers. Further, as long as you're not in direct sunlight your run multiplier increases by 1.

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I'd reword All Alone In The Night to be more like the Monk's Path of the Enlightened - as in "If you've completed this path you instead gain a melee or covert feat". The path is far more flavoursome then "Have a feat".

Because for the monk, it's all about the path. Here, not so much

I also prefer

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Finally, I'd consider just calling it "The Shadow". Having "The Shadow" able to gain "Shadowstrike" sounds better then "The Shadowstriker who can Shadowstrike" (which is kinda redundant).

As written, as far as I understand it - you make a hide check, and then a run action. If you fail the hide check you leave the stance and become flat footed. If you pass the hide check you don't leave the stance and are hidden, but are still flat footed (run action). Except for being hidden upon arrival, remaining in the stance offers no actual benefits (you can't run again due to adjacency).

Why not a Hide Trick?

Shadow Sprint (Hide Trick): If successful, you may take a single, free, run action. This run action ignores all penalties imposed by intervening terrain. Any errors on this hide check may be activated for 1 AD less then normal.Shadowstrike: At level 7, when using Shadow Sprint, you ignore all penalties to your hide check due to movement or noise. Also, as long as you are not in direct sunlight, your run multiplier increases by 1.

Does the same things you want it to, and since it gives you a run action you can apply tricks all you want. It's a full round action (due to hide) so no activation issues (with the stance you have to go into it, gain no benefits for a full round, and then run next round) and no extra free action benefits - full round that gives a full round.

---------------------------Additionally, away from Shadowstrike, I just noticed the core ability (I guess I blanked over it on first read) - it's really weak. Maybe give them a Sneak rank each level for free, ala Swashbuckler - though it gives an X or Y, so maybe Sneak or Acrobatics (or Blend)?

I still disagree with All Alone in the Night, but then I'd just choose to always take the path on the grounds it's more interesting then just feats (as well as likely exclusive to them). So not a big deal. I hadn't seen a Shadow expert class - got a link?

As written, as far as I understand it - you make a hide check, and then a run action. If you fail the hide check you leave the stance and become flat footed.

Only after you've made the run action.

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If you pass the hide check you don't leave the stance and are hidden, but are still flat footed (run action). Except for being hidden upon arrival, remaining in the stance offers no actual benefits (you can't run again due to adjacency).

Why not a Hide Trick?

Well, no benefit apart from the fact that as it allows you to teleport 90-120 ft -- now, technically, without even having to make a check. Putting you in a stance to do it so you can't benefit from any other stance is pretty much entirely the point.

Well, that and it needs to wrok with the Charge chain (which I specificially chose not to make an a/c spine option, because it's a really good combination that a player should be free to expend other options to access if they want it).

So, since you can't apply a trick within a trick unless you're generously interpreting the Martial Artist's 10th level ability, any other option but a stance is out.

At this stage I'm going to guess that you're probably not playing Mass Effect 3's multiplayer.

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Additionally, away from Shadowstrike, I just noticed the core ability (I guess I blanked over it on first read) - it's really weak. Maybe give them a Sneak rank each level for free, ala Swashbuckler - though it gives an X or Y, so maybe Sneak or Acrobatics (or Blend)?

What about Ghost Mastery instead of Ghost Basics? Thing is, that feat chain is pretty important to the class, which is why I'm reluctant to rip out the heart of the 2nd feat -- making Hide checks anywhere -- to use as an independant core ability.

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I still disagree with All Alone in the Night, but then I'd just choose to always take the path on the grounds it's more interesting then just feats (as well as likely exclusive to them). So not a big deal. I hadn't seen a Shadow expert class - got a link?

Nope; like I said, it's more a memory of having seen one than anything. If there isn't, I'll happily change it back to Shadow

If you pass the hide check you don't leave the stance and are hidden, but are still flat footed (run action). Except for being hidden upon arrival, remaining in the stance offers no actual benefits (you can't run again due to adjacency).

Why not a Hide Trick?

Well, no benefit apart from the fact that as it allows you to teleport 90-120 ft -- now, technically, without even having to make a check. Putting you in a stance to do it so you can't benefit from any other stance is pretty much entirely the point.

Except you can't - not unless you add another exception into the stance about it ignoring adjacency - the only actions you can take while adjacent are acrobatics checks and a standard move. If the intent is to let them teleport out of melee (with the restriction that they go into another melee), that's fine, but you'll want to make that clear.

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So, since you can't apply a trick within a trick unless you're generously interpreting the Martial Artist's 10th level ability, any other option but a stance is out.

I disagree here - Charge gives you a run trick that grants attacks, as far as I can tell there is nothing stopping you from applying tricks to those attacks. It's not two tricks on one action, after all - it's two tricks on two separate actions. That's the basis for my suggestion of a hide trick that grants run.

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At this stage I'm going to guess that you're probably not playing Mass Effect 3's multiplayer.

Nope, stopped after I finished the main campaign. If Leviathan goes on sale, or everyone raves about it, I'll give the game another playthrough with the EC and repickup multiplayer while I do so. I did read through the wiki entry on the class though.

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What about Ghost Mastery instead of Ghost Basics? Thing is, that feat chain is pretty important to the class, which is why I'm reluctant to rip out the heart of the 2nd feat -- making Hide checks anywhere -- to use as an independant core ability.

I'm totally fine with it being Ghost Basics (and saw straight away that it's due to the obvious synergy between the chain and class), I just think add something to it is all - the way that Gallant gives Renown + a free skill, or Swashbuckler gives Panache + a free skill. Giving a rank of Sneak each leave brings it up to par with existing classes while still keeping the flavour (and letting the player know "Hey, you'll be wanting this chain"). If it were straight Ghost Mastery I'd have the same point.

Further thoughts next post (my window is screwing up something fierce).

Another idea:Shadow Walk (Stance): To enter this stance you must first make a successful hide check. While in this stance you may ignore any movement restrictions imposed by intervening terrain or adjacency. If someone successfully spots you with a Perception check, you are immediately ejected from this stance and rendered flat footed. Should you fail the initial hide check, you may not enter this stance, and are rendered flat footed.

Ok, now we can move in any fashion (teleport style), Run (with tricks, including charge) and are restricted from using other stances. It's also simpler to parse and automatically includes distance and movement penalties to the hide check by having a "remain hidden" requirement, which has the nice side effect of really encouraging the ghost chain.

Shadowstrike II is a bit of a problem, since it makes Ghost Basics and half of Mastery kinda redundant - since removal is better then halving. Sure Ghost Mastery has the benefit of hide anywhere, but having 1.5 nothing feats to get there isn't very clean.

At this stage I'm going to guess that you're probably not playing Mass Effect 3's multiplayer.

Nope, stopped after I finished the main campaign. If Leviathan goes on sale, or everyone raves about it, I'll give the game another playthrough with the EC and repickup multiplayer while I do so. I did read through the wiki entry on the class though.

At the moment, the game is absolutely refusing to load the multiplayer server for me, and has been for a solid 2 weeks. I ask you, is it too much t ask just to be able to plotlessly and uncomplicatedly slaughter a bunch of NPCs for an hour or so? At this point, I might have to actully commit to doing a definitive 1-3 playthrough

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Well, no benefit apart from the fact that as it allows you to teleport 90-120 ft -- now, technically, without even having to make a check. Putting you in a stance to do it so you can't benefit from any other stance is pretty much entirely the point.

Except you can't - not unless you add another exception into the stance about it ignoring adjacency - the only actions you can take while adjacent are acrobatics checks and a standard move. If the intent is to let them teleport out of melee (with the restriction that they go into another melee), that's fine, but you'll want to make that clear.

The point is more to teleport into an attack rather than an escape mechanism from being mobbed thoughto my mind, ignoring terrain also meant adjacency. I'll have to think if I want that to apply.

*: As best I can determine, once the prep-time has passed (2 rounds thanks to Ambush basics), the check itself is by definition a free action.

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So, since you can't apply a trick within a trick unless you're generously interpreting the Martial Artist's 10th level ability, any other option but a stance is out.

I disagree here - Charge gives you a run trick that grants attacks, as far as I can tell there is nothing stopping you from applying tricks to those attacks. It's not two tricks on one action, after all - it's two tricks on two separate actions. That's the basis for my suggestion of a hide trick that grants run.

The run action, being the outcome of the hide trick, is by definition not independent of it, thus it cannot have a trick applied to it. Doing so would the equivalent of a free attack being able to spawn more free attacks.

Another idea:Shadow Walk (Stance): To enter this stance you must first make a successful hide check. While in this stance you may ignore any movement restrictions imposed by intervening terrain or adjacency. If someone successfully spots you with a Perception check, you are immediately ejected from this stance and rendered flat footed. Should you fail the initial hide check, you may not enter this stance, and are rendered flat footed.

Ok, now we can move in any fashion (teleport style), Run (with tricks, including charge) and are restricted from using other stances. It's also simpler to parse and automatically includes distance and movement penalties to the hide check by having a "remain hidden" requirement, which has the nice side effect of really encouraging the ghost chain.

What constitutes a successful hide check and is it part of the half-action required to enter a stance or an additional half-action? While the perception check ejection is interesting, apart from being problematic because it brings in actors beyond the binary of the player and the target, it's also arguably going to the wrong end of the equation: the ability this is modeling automatically makes the jump, but if the target sees you make it, they can block the attack and stagger you

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Shadowstrike II is a bit of a problem, since it makes Ghost Basics and half of Mastery kinda redundant - since removal is better then halving. Sure Ghost Mastery has the benefit of hide anywhere, but having 1.5 nothing feats to get there isn't very clean.

Not really; it only applies to Shadowstriking which also drops you right next to an enemy

At the moment, the game is absolutely refusing to load the multiplayer server for me, and has been for a solid 2 weeks. I ask you, is it too much t ask just to be able to plotlessly and uncomplicatedly slaughter a bunch of NPCs for an hour or so? At this point, I might have to actully commit to doing a definitive 1-3 playthrough

You're on PC, right? Is there any non-EA servers yet? Or was the game coded in such a fashion that it's impossible to have other servers around the place? My first playthroug of ME3 was a 1-3 import that I did in January, and I have another that I was going to do (my "Doom the universe" triple import), but since the ending is more about MP then it is choices, I just haven't bothered. Maybe with Leviathan and some other DLC I might look at it.

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*: As best I can determine, once the prep-time has passed (2 rounds thanks to Ambush basics), the check itself is by definition a free action.

I'm a bit dubious about that one (my interpretation is that you take 2 full rounds to set it - doing nothing else), but I might let a player get away with it if they'd built their concept around the idea.

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The run action, being the outcome of the hide trick, is by definition not independent of it, thus it cannot have a trick applied to it. Doing so would the equivalent of a free attack being able to spawn more free attacks.

Lets agree to disagree here - I think it's fine to put attack tricks on the free attacks granted by Charge, but I can understand why others wouldn't. Out of curiosity, I've posted the question to the Q&A to see what Pat and Alex intended to be the rule. If I were a player, I'd have no problem with the GM ruling that you can't do it (though as a GM, I'd always rule the other way).

What constitutes a successful hide check and is it part of the half-action required to enter a stance or an additional half-action?

My intent was to have it be similar to your stance, but now I've realised that I didn't word it that way, and it still doesn't quite do what I want it to. A simple "You may only enter this stance while Hidden" is far easier, and does what I would want it to - to be in stance you must be hidden.

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While the perception check ejection is interesting, apart from being problematic because it brings in actors beyond the binary of the player and the target, it's also arguably going to the wrong end of the equation: the ability this is modeling automatically makes the jump, but if the target sees you make it, they can block the attack and stagger you.

I mostly put it in because of the expanded parameters - you can go anywhere with this variant. What if the perception check for ejection was limited to adjacency? That way it covers them seeing you come at them and blocks you (which is far closer to your original intent).

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Not really; it only applies to Shadowstriking which also drops you right next to an enemy

True, but it's the spine of the class, and it's main schtick - and something I would use the heck out of. If it wasn't for ME3 MP's god awful unlock system, I'd load it up to give a play of the class due to how interesting it looks. Knowing my luck it'd take me weeks to unlock the damn thing though.

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Maybe, but but I dislike it referencing feats you may not have

You'll have at least one, and if you change the requirements to Basics, and have the Core ability grant Mastery* - then you have at least 2, and if you were silly enough not to get the 3rd then this one says "Dude, you want them all" (in my mind anyway). I can see your objection though.

* While the class has synergy with Ambush (and *BAMF* Attack has nice stylistic linkings), it doesn't build upon it in any way - Shadowstrike is about being hidden, not ambushing - which makes me think it's an inappropriate requirement. It builds upon Ghost more (the second as Core ability, a reworked Shadowstrike II, the hide focus) and has stronger thematic links - the Shadow is trained to be a Ghost.

At the moment, the game is absolutely refusing to load the multiplayer server for me, and has been for a solid 2 weeks. I ask you, is it too much t ask just to be able to plotlessly and uncomplicatedly slaughter a bunch of NPCs for an hour or so? At this point, I might have to actully commit to doing a definitive 1-3 playthrough

You're on PC, right? Is there any non-EA servers yet? Or was the game coded in such a fashion that it's impossible to have other servers around the place? My first playthroug of ME3 was a 1-3 import that I did in January, and I have another that I was going to do (my "Doom the universe" triple import), but since the ending is more about MP then it is choices, I just haven't bothered. Maybe with Leviathan and some other DLC I might look at it.

Yeah, the problem is that you pretty much can't have independant servers given the way you earn credits for gear. What's frutrating as heck is that the game IS making contact with EA in order to validate all the DLC

What constitutes a successful hide check and is it part of the half-action required to enter a stance or an additional half-action?

My intent was to have it be similar to your stance, but now I've realised that I didn't word it that way, and it still doesn't quite do what I want it to. A simple "You may only enter this stance while Hidden" is far easier, and does what I would want it to - to be in stance you must be hidden.

Hidden from who? Just one person, one person in particular, or everyone?

This is part of why I fundamentally dislike FC's current definition of invisible as hidden with a bit of movement. Hidden is what invisible should be, while hidden really needs to have something to do with be obscured, obfuscated or otherwise remove from view by some intervening object. Because you can be hidden from view even though an opponent is aware of your presence or even your location.

I quite like 2.0's version of invisible that basically renders an enemy effectively blinded in regards to them.

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While the perception check ejection is interesting, apart from being problematic because it brings in actors beyond the binary of the player and the target, it's also arguably going to the wrong end of the equation: the ability this is modeling automatically makes the jump, but if the target sees you make it, they can block the attack and stagger you.

I mostly put it in because of the expanded parameters - you can go anywhere with this variant. What if the perception check for ejection was limited to adjacency? That way it covers them seeing you come at them and blocks you (which is far closer to your original intent).

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Not really; it only applies to Shadowstriking which also drops you right next to an enemy

True, but it's the spine of the class, and it's main schtick - and something I would use the heck out of. If it wasn't for ME3 MP's god awful unlock system, I'd load it up to give a play of the class due to how interesting it looks. Knowing my luck it'd take me weeks to unlock the damn thing though.

I miss the days of simple FPS MP like Doom2, or heck, Tribes. But I've always thought it silly that they don't have the capacity to unlock the 1st level of classes and gear items as a microtransaction, because I'm far far more likely to spend money on that than random premium disappointment packs.

But yeah, once I got it, the shadow hands down replaced the asari adept and her stasis ball of evil as my favourite class: there is just no beating the feeling of evil glee that comes from cloaking, materialising behind an enemy and slashing them to death (then while still cloaked thanks to the 6th level evolution doing it again to some other poor schlub). Load up on the melee buffs and attacking while cloaked bonuses, you can even 1 shot phantoms on silver, though usually I have to go straight into heavy melee after the slash to finish them.

You'll have at least one, and if you change the requirements to Basics, and have the Core ability grant Mastery* - then you have at least 2, and if you were silly enough not to get the 3rd then this one says "Dude, you want them all" (in my mind anyway). I can see your objection though.

* While the class has synergy with Ambush (and *BAMF* Attack has nice stylistic linkings), it doesn't build upon it in any way - Shadowstrike is about being hidden, not ambushing - which makes me think it's an inappropriate requirement. It builds upon Ghost more (the second as Core ability, a reworked Shadowstrike II, the hide focus) and has stronger thematic links - the Shadow is trained to be a Ghost.

I think that even if you discount ambush basics -- which, you know, you shouldn't as it's there for a reason -- the class is fairly clearly meant to be an ambusher given the flawless tactics and sneak attack dice you're picking up (especially if you're taking Fleeting Shadows -- you potentially can pick up 4 sneak attack dice by the end of the class

Hidden from who? Just one person, one person in particular, or everyone?

I'm gonna go with everyone. The rules on hidden are kinda vague and a little weird, but it seems that if one of the enemy spot you, they all do - I guess the logic is they give him a "look out, cloaked operative incoming" type dealie. So I'm saying everyone because of how the Hidden condition works, it just requires less exceptions to normal rules this way (and as such has broader aplicability).

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This is part of why I fundamentally dislike FC's current definition of invisible as hidden with a bit of movement. Hidden is what invisible should be, while hidden really needs to have something to do with be obscured, obfuscated or otherwise remove from view by some intervening object. Because you can be hidden from view even though an opponent is aware of your presence or even your location.

I quite like 2.0's version of invisible that basically renders an enemy effectively blinded in regards to them.

I totally agree, I've always been more then a little confused by the invisible condition in FC. SC2.0's is far easier to apply in play.

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I miss the days of simple FPS MP like Doom2, or heck, Tribes. But I've always thought it silly that they don't have the capacity to unlock the 1st level of classes and gear items as a microtransaction, because I'm far far more likely to spend money on that than random premium disappointment packs.

Absolutely. If I could spend MSP or cash on "You will get the class you want" rather then "You have a really good chance of getting another fucking Salarian Engineer" I'd totally pony up the dough. As is though, their entire unlock system makes me not want to play because I only ever get the shit I already have. At the very least it needs to have the possibility of getting things you already have maxed removed out to tempt me to play again.

Still, the class looks pretty cool in that video. Shame the only released these things as MP DLC - it'd be a blast to carve through the campaign as some of these new classes, and would actually require minimal additional work during development. Even if you could only get their primary schtick as advanced training or something it'd be a neat addition.

Shadowtrike I: You gain a stance.Shadowstrike (Stance): To enter this stance, you must select a target and be hidden from them; if they become aware of you, you are ejected from the stance. Whenever you make a successful ambush check against your target, you automatically run as a half action to become adjacent to them, ignoring all terrain modifiers to movement, and immediately initiate your surprise round. While in this stance, the action die cost to activate a threat on an attack check increases by 1 and you begin each round flatfooted, but provided you aren't in direct sunlight you may ignore adjacency when making move actions.Shadowstrike II: Provided you don't roll an error on your Ambush check, you remain hidden from your target until the end of the round; however the cost to activate any such error is reduced by 1 die. Additionally, the time required to make an Ambush check is halved.