SPRING NOTES: Giants limping to the flight home; right-handers make pitches for final spot

We grade everything that happens at spring training on a curve, a huge curve at times. Angel Pagan slumps? It’s fine, he’s working on his hand placement. Tim Lincecum gets shelled? No worries, he’s trying to find his arm slot.

That’s just the way things are this early in the season. But even by spring standards, the last couple days have been U-G-L-Y.

You all saw Barry Zito’s numbers yesterday. Make no mistake about it, the Giants are worried — and they should be. There aren’t a whole lot of good options to replace Zito, especially with Eric Surkamp sidelined with some elbow trouble.
But today was pretty disconcerting, too. The Giants were absolutely stymied by Jeff Francis, a guy who gave up 11 hits and 11 runs in his last appearance.

“For some reason, we’ve really struggled against lefties. It’s been the control-type guys,” Bochy said, referring to Francis, Jamie Moyer and others who have shut them down this spring. “Francis pitched well and hit his spots…But I’d like to see better swings. That’s the disappointing part.”

The Giants managed just a two-run homer by Joaquin Arias. Just as frustrating was the pitching performance. Jeremy Affeldt and Santiago Casilla were knocked around a bit, and the Giants gave up 18 hits in the game’s final seven innings.

“Our heads are somewhere else,” Bochy said.

The Giants play at the Brewers tomorrow and then head home. Spring training results don’t matter at all, but you can tell that Bochy is hoping Tim Lincecum and tomorrow’s hitters can make it a pleasant flight back to San Francisco.

— A day after Dan Otero threw two shutout innings against the Padres, Steve Edlefsen and Jean Machi provided some of the only highlights against the Reds. Edlefsen threw a scoreless sixth inning to lower his Cactus League ERA to 1.74; Machi pitched a scoreless ninth to lower his mark to 1.80.

Both pitchers are competing with Otero (0.90 ERA in 10 innings) for the 12th and final spot on the pitching staff.

“These guys are really throwing well and doing all they can do,” Bochy said. “It’s tough. It’s not an easy decision when you have guys throwing like that.”

Whoever wins the job will likely be with the big league squad for less than two weeks, since right-hander Ryan Vogelsong will return from the disabled list on April 15.

Vogelsong threw 55 pitches in three innings in a minor league game. It was the lengthiest outing of the spring for the No. 4 starter, who missed the start of camp with a back strain and was placed on the disabled list Friday.

“The back feels good – everything is good,” said Vogelsong. He allowed four hits and an earned run while facing the Giants’ Triple-A squad.

— Clay Hensley had an MRI on his calf Saturday but got good news and expects to be back on a mound in a day or two.

“I’m just day-to-day,” the right-hander said. “Everything is fine.”

Hensley, considered a lock to make the roster as a reliever, said he fully anticipates being ready by opening day.

— Brett Pill played third base in a Cactus League game for the first time and was tested right away with a high chopper. Pill’s throw to first wasn’t in time to get Chris Heisey, but Bochy said he likes what he has seen from Pill in limited time.

“You can look at things he does and say he’s got the hands, which I believe he does,” Bochy said. “The throwing part, he’ll work on.”

— Arias now has two homers in three days. “He’s still here and he’s going to San Francisco with us (for the Bay Bridge Series),” Bochy said. “He’s done a nice job.” Arias remains an option to make this team as a backup infielder.

— Conor Gillaspie isn’t making the flight to San Francisco. After the game, the Giants optioned him to Triple-A Fresno. He hit just .189 in 19 games this spring.

— Said it before, I’ll say it again: You can just see Hector Sanchez getting more and more comfortable when it comes to calling games and dealing with pitchers. He was very encouraging today with Wilmin Rodriguez, who had a long eighth inning.

So…it seemed very telling today when, in the midst of talking about the troubles against left-handers, Bochy mentioned that Buster Posey can play some first base (as seen in the photo above). “That will help us a bit,” Bochy said.

Might they be considering Sanchez as the backup catcher and a starter on days where Posey plays first? It sure would make a lot of sense, and would add a whole lot of pop to this offense, especially against lefties.

Alex Pavlovic

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Hector Sanchez as the back-up catcher, now wouldn’t that be a pleasant surprise. I’ll believe it when when I see it.

pacman68

With what has happened the past two days. Bochy is going to have no choice to pick the line up that hits.

Spartacus38

We must find a way to have Hector on our roster of 25.

E-B

hey all, good posts; will catch up tomorrow.

watched part of today’s game. YOOOGLY!

not liking D of today’s middleIF. just makes me nervous. pray like crazy for Freddy’s full recovery. the l/u is mediocre w/out his consistent bat.

stewie is a keeper. period.

buster looked TIRED today. hope the med staff saw what I saw; I’m sure they did. go w/ @Lefty’s genius 3-catcher scenario for the first few weeks. even the slightest amount of fatigue + playing leads to tweeks/injuries/etc.

re: zito.
ita w/ everyone’s comments on previous threads, e.g., he’s a liability & burden for this club. don’t make the whole team suffer for his inemptness. KIR & Lefty said it best in previous threads.

—————–
over and out till tomorrow.
timmy pitches

bochy’s platoony tune adventures

I’m sure glad they are still considering leaving Belt in Fresno. Not like we need anyone who can hit or anything.

bochy’s platoony tune adventures

…and I said that BEFORE taking a look at Belt’s splits. He hits lefties better, so far in his ML career, better than most of the RHH on the team.

I wasn’t impressed with the corner outfield defense today either. Nate bobbled a ball, and dove for a ball he had no chance at — both times probably giving up 90 feet. Melky also dove for a ball, a low liner, and let it get past him. The Golden Rule for outfielders is, if you are going to dive for a ball like that, you better DANG well get something on it. You can’t let that ball get by you.

At least Melky’s been hitting though. Nate, sorry buddy, you know I love you, but you are on the bench in my lineup — whether it be Belt or Blanco getting the nod instead. I’d probably go with Belt.

DBTN101

Bring in Oswalt….. or did he already sign with someone?……

Dirty Al

First view of the team on TV today.

Gotta say they looked an awful lot like last year’s bunch.
Different faces.

I am a huge Nate Fan but at this point I think he and Pagan should share playing time..he has looked awful this spring for whatever reason.

If you enjoy Sabermetrics check out my Matt Cain contract article by clicking on my name

Foothills Ryan

You can’t spell ‘Giants Extras’ without ‘Giant Sex’.

Enjoy the roster speculation. And remember, their “heads are somewhere else”.

Anybody have Alex’ 25 from yesterday? Got to get my last one in tomorrow.

Trust the process, trust the talent.

And this:

Jeff Francis>Barry Zito (should have signed that guy to a minor league deal)

JD4SF

Dinero says: (prior thread)
March 31st, 2012 at 7:41 pm
51..
JD4SF @ 4:57 – you talking about the ball Brown cut off in the gap to save a run? Yeah, that kid covers a ridiculous amount of ground. That was just a glimpse. Oh, and he’s got an absolute cannon for an arm.

He’s going to put smiles on a lot of Giants fans’ faces before too long
=======

Yeah, that kid Brown has hot wheels and an arm. Glad the cameras gave us another look. Impressive!

I might get tempted up to a Fresno game again this year if fuel prices don’t continue to soar. There was some good talent at ST.

anthillunda2nd

pacman,

maybe the team is tanking on purpose, in order to force Bochy to pick the most offensive team he’s ever chosen?? Hector is too important now, Pill, Belt all of the above. They’re all on the team, fuggedda bout it. Good for them to band together and get Fathead to use that massive brain.

JD4SF

I’m betting the hitters who have demonstrated being more capable of hitting the LHP will now have an advantage for spots left on the roster.

walt kovacs

i believe that hector could honestly start for a number of teams….question is, does the org want him playing everyday, or backing up buster

i know nate is injured….he is playing like he is injured…and he is refusing to tell anyone

don’t get why these dang soft-tossing southpaws lock us up. It was the same last year too, which worries me more than a little.

spliff(TONE)

Every damn pitcher locks this lineup up.

MLBSF

I can see absolutely nothing has changed this year.

A healthy Buster Posey may not even make a dent in this atrocious line up.

The Oracle

I’m reading that there is some disagreement between management (Sabean) and the coaching staff (Bochy) about the roster. My guess is that Bochy is anti Belt and pro Whiteside. I’m not saying that Bochy is a bad manager; his track record proves the opposite. But as with players, managers can have their strengths and weaknesses. I believe that Bochy’s glaring weakness his handling of young players. It’s easy when guys like Sandoval and Posey show up and immediately hit .300, but he lacks the patience to deal with the usual growing pains most players grow through. In the case of Belt, he’s almost openly hostile. Has Bochy had anything very positive to say about Belt this spring? The best I can remember is that Belt was having a “nice” spring and the hole in his swing is getting smaller. Pretty faint praise for a guy hitting nearly .400. Isn’t part of the job to encourage young players, not continually downplay their success?

The Giants have a lot of young talent that’s going to pushing for spots on the big league roster in the next few years. Although I acknowledge Bochy’s managerial skills in general, is he going to be he right manager for THIS team as it transitions to a younger, homegrown roster? I have my doubts.

JD4SF

Dinero says:
March 31st, 2012 at 9:42 pm
18..
don’t get why these dang soft-tossing southpaws lock us up. It was the same last year too, which worries me more than a little.
=====

I’m predicting some serious BP sessions against LHP

ClutchUp

Isn’t Hindsight 20/20 beautiful, So I’ll take a crack at something weird:

(1) I think Sabes and Boch over-reacted to 2011 and some of our guys have grinded too hard during ST. I see guys on TV that have been on the back fields at 6-630 a.m. taking ground balls and having swings; Then onto main diamond doing TEAM drills… then lunch and then a game in front of fans…

Some look way to beat up.

(2) SF faces 11 RHP’s in first 12 games with Jamie Moyer being the only Lefty thus all the G’s LHanded hitters will get their chance to wipe the slate clean meaning:
Pagan-Melky-Nate-Sandoval-Crawford-Burriss-Huff are all in the starting lineup for most of those first 12 games.

Blanco and Belt will get their chance but Blanco is on the club for sure. BB9 = I WANT on the Club, but I see him in Fresno on day one sadly.

slamdunk

Still do not see the need to keep 12 pitchers when the season starts, unless one of these relievers takes Zito’s place on the roster. Since Surkamp is still hurt, then put Petit in the rotation, heck ANYBODY would be better than throwing Zito out there to the wolves with his 80MPH “fast” ball. The lineup, even with Posey back is still going to struggle to score runs, so Hector Sanchez should indeed be the backup. Sure defense is important in the catcher’s position, but who wants to go another year watching Whiteside and Stewart bat a collective .200 and the Giants lose 2 to 1 all of the time?

Foothills Ryan

Clutch,

Solid research on the opposing starter handedness. 11/12 ? Wow.

I don’t think they know. I think they are leaning in the direction of keeping Belt, but waiting until Wednesday to make final judgement. I’d say the same goes for Sanchez, but I don’t think they can justify Pill being the guy if he’s just the right handed bench guy.

Lefty

Bochy’s comment that Buster can play first against lefties may well be good news for Hector–I’m sure he didn’t mean so they can get Whiteside or Stewart in the lineup!–but may be bad news for Pill. If they were keeping Pill, why wouldn’t they have him play 1B against lefties while Buster catches? Keeping Hector removes the best argument for having Pill on the bench.

I agree with the Oracle that the disagreement between Sabean & Bochy is that Sabean wants Belt on the roster and Bochy doesn’t. Sabean has consistently been more positive about Belt than Bochy has. Problem is, even if Sabean pulls rank and wins this round, Bochy could still park Belt on the bench. It may come down to Sabean trading someone like Bengie in 2010 and like Billy Beane in 2002. Remember that Bochy wasn’t playing Posey consistently until Bengie was traded.

JD4SF

CU –
I think we also need to take into consideration bullpen LHP that each hitter has faced, not just starters. And in some cases there were MLB players in split squad or minors games.

I suspect another issue in ST was so MUCH good talent there, it meant getting lots more players into the lineups for another look … which perhaps meant not enough AB for each to click against the different types of pitchers.

I’m hoping we come back strong in Sunday’s game (RHP) so the guys roll into the Bridge series Mon-Wed out of a solid win, mentally positive.

PoloGroundz

Please please send Whitey and Stewart out to pasture. We’d barely have a good offensive backup if we COMBINED their stats.

snarkk

Oracle I agree with you on Bochy’s near hostile, certainly indifferent, attitude toward Belt, which continues from when I first saw it clearly last year. It’s like Bochy caught Belt once spitting in his cereal or something. It stinks. You don’t tear down young players in the media, you build them up publicly, and in private you work on their weaknesses. The Giants had Bam Bam publicly declare a few days back that Belt still has a hole in his swing. What does that do for his confidence? Nada. OK, so when he closes it, he’ll hit .500 instead of .400? They’re looking for reasons to diss this kid. I just do not get it…

I say cut Zito he is hopeless have Mota the 5th starter and keep one of those stud minor league relievers, otero, machi or, elelfsen. But what do I know?

JD4SF

The argument to keep Blanco, Belt or Arias up is certainly strengthened if the Giants want to shore up O against LHP, but the same argument doesn’t work for Hector and Pill who are only hitting .250 against LHP.

Small ST stats sample size, and who knows which factors will carry more weight at this point. And I suspect Blanco already has his slot, albeit unofficial, for numerous other reasons in addition to his bat.

Lance Newberry

Trade Huff for a ham sandwich, move Posey to 1st regularly as soon as Sanchez shows he can handle the regular catching job and put Belt in LF.

Instead of Posey catching three or four games a week and playing 1st one or two, switch that and get him out from behind the plate, give Sanchez a real shot to show what he’s got, get younger/better hitters in the lineup and get this tug boat out of the dock.

And Bochy & Sabean must be the only two people in the world who are surprised Zito is again blowing chunks.

He is completely washed up, he has been for years and he should retire right now and free up all that money he’s stealing and regain a sliver of self-respect.

What a complete bum.

Clearly the Giants need another starting pitcher, and that guy is not anywhere in the organization now, so they are going to have to do something, sooner than later.

Livefree

Giants havent really hit for 14 games …. isnt it Bochys job to make sure their minds arent elsewhere, if thats the excuse he’s using?

gamer

If they can’t hit, let’s get rid of Bam Bam

Andy

Zitio should begin season in AAA or AA

Jstreet

My mind is elsewhere.

Lefty

Clutch,

Looking at the Phillies’ schedule for the first twelve days, I don’t see how the Giants avoid Lee, even with the off-days and tweaking the Phils are doing during the first week:

They’re going with a four-man the first week with two off days: Halladay, Lee, Worley, Hamels. Hamels is going fourth so he can pitch the home opener on Monday, April
9. Then there’s an off day, and Halladay goes again on April 11. Assuming a five-man rotation from that point, the Phils’ 10-12 games against the Giants should be Halladay, Lee, & Worley–so Lee is a second lefty in those first 12 games (Moyer is the other).

I think everyday players should hit against righties and lefties. After Freddy and Buster were hurt last year, the righty hitters were the weakest on the team–Rowand, Tejada, Cabrera, Ross at points–and Torres was terrible from the right side and Sandoval was injured from that side for awhile. Yet Bochy always went with the panic move of stacking the lineup with righties against a tough lefty, and voila, Lincecum goes 0-4 against Kershaw.

Belt hits lefties well, and Crawford hit a homer against a lefty this spring (Hong Chi Kuo, and OK, the Mariners fired him two days later, but still). Instead of just assuming Crawford can’t hit lefties and putting an inferior defender in at SS, they should let Crawford start against lefties and see how it goes for awhile.

Lefty

Tweet from Grant Brisbee at McCovey Chronicles: “Giants sign Orlando Cabrera to a minor league deal.”*

*Remmber today’s date!

dgg

E-B says:
March 31st, 2012 at 7:58 pm 3..

stewie is a keeper. period.

=========

Yep.

mustafa

Lance, I like your thinking. Too bad it’s not our money….

Bochy’s Daddy

Lefty #26: Like your suggestion of Sabes making trade to force his will on The Bulb. Most likely to be traded: Huff & Theriot.

Lance #33: disagree about needing to trade for another SP. We’re only talking 2 weeks, here, before Vogey’s back is back. Since Zito is a bust, send him to Fresno and replace him with Petit or Burres (I opt for Petit.)

Agree 100% w/moving Stew & Whitey “elsewhere,” thereby creating roster spots for Arias, Pill, Belt, Sanchez. Also, see no need for keeping slow-footed, .200 BA Theriot; but knowing SF, will continue to hold on to him until June. Good chance we’ll be battling for 3rd in our division by June 1st, and fans will once again be screaming for Sabean to make roster moves and exorcising The Bulb.

Lefty

Putting the various clues from beat writers together:

–Maybe Hector makes the team as the backup catcher, for his bat.
— leaning toward four middle infielders: Burriss, Crawford, & Theriot appear to be locks. Fourth spot is between Pill and Arias. As a “middle infielder,” Arias makes more sense. Pill isn’t one–yet.
–So if the bench so far is Hector, Blanco, Riot, and Arias, the last spot is between Belt and Pill. They don’t need Pill to play 1B or middle infield. They’d be keeping him only for his bat, and the bench already has three right-handed bats (including Hector).

They don’t need Belt to play 1B or OF unless they decide to bench or DL Nate. So it comes down to (a) the argument about whether Belt is “ready” to hit ML pitching; and (b) if they’re going to let Belt play if they keep him. If they’re going with Huff and Nate as starters no matter what, they should send Belt to the minors to play everyday.

One more factor: Given that 75% of ML starts are by RH pitchers, do you need more power from the left or right side? The Giants are not power-laden in general, but here is the “power potential”:

I counted the switch-hitters twice. I’m borderline about whether Melky is really a “power” hitter, but with 18 homers and 44 doubles last year, he is by Giants’ standards. I don’t consider Nate, Angel, Blanco, Burriss, Crawford, Arias, or Theriot to be power hitters. Wow, that’s really a lot of non-power on the roster, and it only gets worse if Stewart or Whiteside gets the nod instead of Hector. Speed and defense are great, but so is a little pop–makes for a balanced lineup.

Leonard Bonilla

It won’t matter what Sabean does in June, if anything, he can’t evaluate offensive players or he wouldn’t have gone after Pagan. Torres no bat but plenty of glove, Pagan, no bat no glove. Sabean sure upgraded that position. Is Pagan going to join the ever increasing long line of “BUST SIGNINGS” of Brian Sabean? Cabrera is hitting and playing well in the Spring. I’ll reserve judgment on him until I see how he does at AT&T.

First base will have Huff starting, Belt and Pill never had a chance because Bochy gave the job to Huff at the end of last season. So much for “competition”. The Giants couldn’t trade Huff anyway, no team in its right mind would take that contract for him.

GregElle

Is it time for Steve Decker to make the move to SF?

Pacman 68

Giants really need to get Rowand back!! He was released by the Marlins and Giants need a solid bat and fielder. He is a home run threat every time he steps to the plate and the Giants current line up is greatly lacking pop. Rowand has a classic home run swing and I don’t think the Giants gave him enough time to find his stroke. Stick him in the number 4 hole and watch the fire works!! Giants need Rowand!!

I second pacman’s idea, let’s get Rowand back. I miss his stance. Heck, we’re already paying him anyway.

Jstreet

Bunch complainers.

swatguy

This Team needs Offense period we all know their recored when scoring 4 or more. That being said cut pagan cut whiteside cut stew and keep hector belt pill. Play blanco in ceter melky can also play there. I agree bochy is not good with young talent. what else does Belt have to prove. MLBTV “experts” were very candid in their assessment the other nite that belt should play everyday! Huff can take the roll of Bench guy like Burrell did in 2010.

You guys do realize that the phrase “backup catcher with a bat” is an oxymoron, don’t you. Get beyond where we are to where we’re going, Sanchez catching and Posey at 1B. Has anyone perchance noticed how much Sanchez reminds one of Yadir Molina, very early on.

Foothills Ryan

Lefty,

Solid as usual. Do you have experience writing dissertations or something? Surprised that you did not give a sermon as it is Sunday morning.

It’s probably time for some New Testament. Some apostle action. Some Psalms. And some serious Resurrection of the offense.

……………..

As for roster predictions, it’s as if you entertain two in your mind: the roster you think is best and the one that you think Sabes & Bochy will decide on.

And Lefty, you did a great job of putting the evidence together for divining purposes. I’m going to go work on building fence, listen to Marty Lurie and the game and come to my “final prediction”. But the brass have may a very tough debate at hand that they won’t decide until watching performances in the Bay Bridge series.

And Hector could flail in the big league regular season. It’s something management has in the back of their minds and want to avoid. I’d say if he’s catching Lincecum today and has a good game, he pushes himself just about on the roster.

So this would be a smart lineup choice today. Will management do the smart thing?

The Oracle

It’s really interesting how much you can read around the net, from non-Giants focused sources, about how the team has badly mishandled Belt. It seems to be a pretty universal opinion with few able to understand why a team that had such problems offensively doesn’t just give a job to such a promising young hitter and allow him to find his way. If Belt is allowed to play and thrives, Bochy will be proven wrong and his veteran-centered decision making will be thrown further into question. GregElle makes a good point. Steve Decker has been a successful, respected minor league manager and might be better suited to developing the young talent that the Giants have waiting in the wings.

a ‘smart’ LU might be to let Posey push Belt into LF with Huff with Sanchez catching. That ends one way, Belt starting in LF. Focusing the competition around 1B just prolongs it. Given their issues with LHP, playing Sanchez AND Posey are the only clear cut option, IMO.

It’s sad to see Nate’s physical problems force him to the bench, because Blanco may end up owning RF if he gets enough time to settle in.

Dirty Al

#54 Oracle.

Agree. Remember there was the same outcry for Posey. Everyone believed he was the man, but they took their sweet time in bringing him in full-time. Probably finally did it out of desperation.

We all know how that turned out.

Belt has shown he can play. They need to give him the chance. A real chance.

Matt Williams was another guy that finally figured it out.

Lefty

Foothills,

Yeah, it’s been a discouraging week, so maybe I didn’t naturally go into sermon-writing mode. I’ll consult the Psalms of Lament to find insight about Zito in the rotation, no new contract for Cain, and Belt’s probable but inexplicable demotion. But Easter’s coming (actual Easter, as well as Opening Day), so there is still hope!

Re Lincecum’s start & catcher: Buster’s getting the day off. You’re right that putting Hector in there would be an interesting sign & test. But will they give priority to making sure Timmy has a solid start today (i.e., not messing with his catcher and giving him Stewart)? If it’s Whiteside, that may also be a sign–not the one most of us want to see. Keep the faith, brothers and sisters! #HappyLincecumDay and Amen!

pacman68

BAGGS TWEET – Yusmeiro Petit will start in Barry Zito’s place on Wednesday vs. A’s at SF. Giants interested to see if Petit is viable rotation candidate.

I hope Petit is last years Volkeswagon. That would make us all sleep a little better at night.

We’ve all wondered about Oswalt’s availability with Zito’s disintegration this spring, and some have said the Angels might be his destination. Being a little contrarian, and realizing Lilly went down for the Dodgers, this would be the Blew Crews chance to put money where their all to big mouth is by grabbing Oswalt and proving that the Dodgers are more than a Disney annex.

rayoflight

The ONLY problem this team has, I think, is the fact they are in complete denial thinking that getting Angel Pagan was going to fix the worst offense in MLB history.

Only Sabean is delusional enough to fantasize in such a way.

Pagan ain’t no good. This is why the Mets unloaded him for some baseballs and chewing gum.

He sucks.

This offense sucks.

To ask Buster to put lipstick on this pig simply isnt fair.

At last Sabes may get canned at the end of this year, thats the only upside.

Bapah

@Lefty #26
I recall yelling at the radio and/or TV to get Bengie out of there, for what seemed like months, before they finally did and gave Buster the position. Sabes took care of Bochy’s prejudice.
Lefty, Solid writing, you should be doing your own blog. Certainly more so than Herbal.

Pac and Dinero, Right, it’s time for Aaron. Maybe we should get that other Cabrera back to shore up this infield. Wait, oh…no? Really?
I’m also happy to see more support for Petit. – He may be the GUY for #5

Could Belt be the rock that breaks the SS Bochy? Dipped my toes back on the Flap the other day, mentioning a scenario along those lines. Ran into some pretty heavy flak for my troubles. A couple of posters there seem to think that Bruce is at least the best Giants manager since John J. McGraw. Granted, Bochy is top five, maybe even best three managers when it comes to utilizing a pitching staff. No question.

When it comes to dealing with younger players, we had abundant proof last season that Bochy botched it both with Crawford (think getting Cabrera from Cleveland, after the Tejada floparoooni) and with Belt and the yo-yo treatment. There are more examples, but these two both linger and fester. Giants system has a host of young and talented position players coming up the pipeline. Will Bochy insist on contracts for additional declining veterans to make sure the kids have mature role-models to emulate?

No, i’m not quite ready to dump Brucie just yet, but do want to make it clear that with me (and evidently with Oracle as well) that because of his unease with young players and also because the team will now base its trajectory on speed and defense as well as pitching; that for at least one poster here, Bochy is currently on probationary status. I wonder if there are not at least a few in Giants ownership circles who are coming around to the same way of thinking.

Bochy’s test case is Brandon Belt. IF Brandon is sent down to Fresno to draw a zillion walks and IF Huff is handed 8-man status and performs little better than he did last season and IF this situation goes on much beyond the current month THEN Bruce goes on my ess-list and the world is gonna know.

The day that the Giants decisions and Bochy’s decisions are steered by mullets like us or Splash posters, is the day the Giants become the Mets. One shouldn’t mistake a halfassed opinion from amateurs as the basis for a management decision as opposed to just ‘fun’.

Hermann

Its only spring training, but

what doesn’t make sense is releasing Fontenot, a proven vet who fits in with the team gone and the only reason given is 700K in saving.

Bochy made some bad moves last year. Giving up his number to a rental player who did nothing but drag the team down… keeping the wrong shortstop

If this team does not do well out of the gate, it should be the manager and hitting coach that should be replaced. I would give them two weeks

stickman

Whether team policy is determined by a fan or two sounding off is hardly a material consideration. True. Whether successful ML baseball teams designate an employee to keep an ear to the ground in order to garner insights into fan sentiment is something we must ask ourselves.

Giants fans are fed up to the thorax with the continued protestations about his mechanics, yada, yada, by Barry Zito. Magowan’s Folly has a very short and narrow window of opportunity to remain a starter for this team ~ to remain on the 25-man at all, for that matter. Fan pressure will be something like the psi at 20,000 feet below sea level on this issue.

A second area where the team poobahs should be keeping their respective ears to the ground regards the performance, or lack thereof, of Aubrey Huff. This situation of Huff as a probable starter at 1B or in LF and the possible effect it may have on the status of Brandon Belt leads us to situation #3:

There is no developing groundswell of opposition as of yet to the status of Bruce Bochy as team manager. He did, after all, very successfully coordinate a ‘band of misfits’ into becoming 2010 World Champs. Question is, though, can he match that performance in running a significantly younger and more athletic group of players? Inserting Brandon Belt into the lineup on an almost daily basis, unless the kid proves to be a bit short for the role, would go a long ways towards indicating that Bochy has the set of tools to manage this team well into the future.

pacman68

channelclemente – you are right but this is Bochy’s sink or swim year. If the Giants regress … he should be gone. If they make the playoffs … he stays.

So Zito has pretty much “ditched” his annual offseason adjustment; again.

When will he sacrafice the remainder of the money left on his contract since he han’t earned ONE DIME of what he’s been paid ? It’s not like he will miraculiously regain his form & reward the Giants benevolence. . .someplace along the line he’ll have to admit reality is the end was two years ago1

Giants FO office makes those decisions. We may not like it, it may get under a lot of folks skins, and be counterintuitive to many, but Bochy is among the top 2-3 managers in baseball. 86 wins with that mess last year was a miracle. Anyone who would fire a manager over the, up to now, misadventures of a 6′ 5″ goony bird who can’t hit his weight is just wrong headed, IMO. He MAY be the baseball savior everyone wants, but come on, even his Zips makes him a .250 hitter. That makes him Schierholtz, not Ted Williams or even Aubrey Huff. Whatever the outcome, we get to walk away from our silly POVs, but Bochy has to live with his decisions. The sooner folks realize they’re the ‘newsmen’ of fantasy baseball teams and LUs out to add texture to their collective and individual enjoyment of the game, and not authors of the new gospel of baseball, the better.

Just have fun, it’s a game or maybe The Game.

pacman68

channelclemente –

I disagree with you on Bochy. I think he handles the pitching staff extremely well but his position players and batting orders are sub par. I also feel that he got very lucky in 2010 with Padres collapse and Jose getting busted for steroids. I thought last year was very winnable but he continued to make bad decisions after bad decisions. A lot like he did in 2009 when I thought the Giants should have made the playoffs. This is just my opinion and it doesn’t really matter what I think but I feel Bochy is a week link and will cost the Giants again this year.

everyone, including me, disagrees with Bochy from time to time, for example I think Posey should be at 1B and Sanchez should be catching. In the aggregate, however, I think Bochy is a fine manager who’s decisions, IMO, single handedly won SF a WS. The way he managed the Giants in August and September of 2010 proved it to me. Brandon Belt is going to have to be godzilla with a bat to change my mind, and then, even then, Bochy gets the credit for the timing.

Keep’n It Real

@pacman68

“I disagree with you on Bochy. I think he handles the pitching staff extremely well but his position players and batting orders are sub par.”

Totally agree with you. Last year’s All-Star Game was a classic example of that. He orchestrated the pitching like he was a master conductor. Bochy does the same thing with the Giants staff (excluding Zito, of course).

The All-Star batting order was a no-brainer, because of the voting and the depth of the bench. If he could orchestrate the position players and the batting order the same way…

The Oracle

channelclemente…The question isn’t whether Bochy is a good manager. He’s proven that. The question is whether he can adapt to the young, homegrown roster the Giants are developing in a way that allows these guys to reach their potential as quickly as possible, or is he much better suited to a veteran-laden roster like the Giants have featured for years? He has to be able to play the hand he’s dealt. The team’s future depends on it.

I also agree that veteran baseball people should be able to make better baseball decisions than a bunch of bloggers. But it’s also simply a fact that the bloggers were right and Bochy was dead wrong in his insistence on going with Tejada, Cabrera, Rowand and Huff last year. That can’t really be argued. It isn’t that we know more about baseball than Bochy. It’s that this unreasonable love of any vet and distrust of any young player that’s not an immediate star is his Achilles heel. With all the young talent on the way, this otherwise very good manager may no longer be the right choice.

it can be argued, and successfully, but what’s the point if your arguing with a religious icon, even a false one.

The Oracle

Ha…nice.

JD4SF

new thread

ClutchUp

pacman68 says: April 1st, 2012 at 11:07 am If Blanco, Belt and Hector have big games today. They are a lock to start the season. I still like Pill over Arias.

Jiffy POP Pac: Agree with you but Arias and Hector are NOW going back to AAA.

ClutchUp

Hermann says: April 1st, 2012 at 10:43 am Its only spring training, but
what doesn’t make sense is releasing Fontenot, a proven vet who fits in with the team gone and the only reason given is 700K in saving.Bochy made some bad moves last year. Giving up his number to a rental player who did nothing but drag the team down… keeping the wrong shortstopIf this team does not do well out of the gate, it should be the manager and hitting coach that should be replaced. I would give them two weeks.

@Herman: You’re “take” has NO logic attached to it. At some point the home grown “kids” IE Burriss have to cut through the membrane that IS – constantly picking up Journeymen IE Babe Fonty. And even MORE rediculous is your “I give them two weeks” regarding Muelens and Bochy…”