Racism in Australia

This is a discussion on Racism in Australia within Shifting gears, part of the Around the Corner category; Originally Posted by harit
Then we saw our new foreign minister making a statement on TV. Oh, soooo weak, no ...

Originally Posted by harit
Then we saw our new foreign minister making a statement on TV. Oh, soooo weak, no wonder no one takes Indian politicians seriously. We have no strong personalities to take a tough stand. Appearance and a strong voice are very much required.

I agree many politicians fail creating an impact. Please don't take me in an offensive way. Have you seen the resume's of some of our politicians including Manmonhan Singh? Better than many you could be defending. Now lets take famous Lalu; everyone considers him illiterate did you know there is a group from Harvard university who is working with him to understand how he managed to make our railways profitable. I do not think Lalu has a college degree. I apologize for being Off Topic here.

Most of the members here are talking sense and taking this thread in a constructive direction. But unfortunately, a few of us are either being emotional or not able to think beyond personal (bad) experiences.

There are just two things to be done, listed in order of priority -
1. STOP the violence that is happening. Help the victims and also the ones who are living in fear down there.
2. A longer term activity would be tying to "orient" ourselves to be more acceptable as a global citizen. Orientation needs to be at source and destination. I mean, in India as well as the various countries that our people go to as suggested earlier by a member.

Regarding begging, no, we do not beg. It is a open world and we choose to exercise our ability to succeed globally.
Regarding gelling with the locals. Well, the oldest saying that I can remember from my childhood is "In Rome Do As Romans Do"... nothing wrong in being more acceptable and liked, is there?

Last but not the least, lets try and be practical and calm. Tendencies to be personal is noticed. For those who think we are supporting the violence or expect to be quite about it and accept it as just rewards to our misbehaviors, We DO NOT like it when our countrymen and women get a raw deal - ever!. Here, we are just mixing up the immediate, short term necessity of stopping it with the long term correction, thats all!

Forget Aussies, I feel like bashing these Indians myself when I see them behaving the way they do in public places.

I agree 100% with your sentiments. But, I disagree with the outburst () and the solution. We, the Global Indian Citizens have a problem at hand. That of some of our counterparts undermining our efforts and hard work to make a name (self and country) internationally. We need to address it in a feasible manner. I know easier said than done, but what frightens me is that each week the problem is growing larger and more difficult to manage.

When I was in MEL, my very educated and level headed colleague suddenly had gone on a India-Bashing spree. He was so awed by the roads and infrastructure that in every discussion with the Aussie friends regarding India would see him pointing out all the negatives. It took me 2 strong Jack-on-the-rock to start off my personal India-Shining campaign and shut him off!

I will stick to my final word for the rest- If you are not welcome in Aus, dont go there, simple! Merely getting visa legally is not enough, if you are not accepted by the local society, why live there like an isolated uninvited guest? Rest is up to you.

It happens to be that I avoid Coca-Cola, not really because it is american, but because first- it is not healthy, second- the company does not have good track record for treating poorer local communities starving due to lack of ground water sucked away by the Corp (do the research yourself).

Some form of protectionism is very evident from my side due to harsh tariffs on Indian commodities in the west, and why not?

It seems, if India is poor today, one of the reason for this is bunch like you - who are either unaware or unable to grasp the reality of modery day "free trade" (which isnt really free). Thank Goodness, our ministers at Doha talks did a tremendous job recently If the other side is not willing to buy Indian commodities or products, it is normal for Indians to avoid buying products made in those countries - or else we starve and go out of business. Fair enough?

Indian lot remains one of them most unhealthy in the world. Keep munching those friedfood/burger/pizza/cola - because it "looks" so damn cool and modern!!! Even starving Ethiopians can beat you in a simple 1 mile run (i.e., if you can actually make it through 1 mile). This is exactly the very reason why I dont consume Cola diet.

When I was a kid, my classmate told me that if i dont wear jeans, i will be considered "backward". I always wonder why, because climate was so hot in India, yet people wear jeans Such strong was the influence from the MTV culture that they made every Indian buy Levi jeans and live sweaty and smelly in hot/humid indian climate - only to give Levis, a foreign company, some profit. Wearing jeans, Indians only ended up with loss of sense of fashion - for a country that is known to produce quality silk and cotton, and other good blend of materials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

I just remembered an old post. I guess you really do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spadival

Ahh.. the subtlety of a hammer there. LOL.. Thats a nice way of antagonizing half of the Indian population, especially the Sikhs with religious beliefs behind their moustaces. I wish to be around when you say that to a hefty ex-army Sardar, on his face (a pun there?). After that, I would think Hygine would be the last thing on your mind, i.e. if you were still alive!!

I can understand why being hygienic is the last thing that comes to your mind - require no explanation.

So, do you also believe in Caste system (which is as good as marrying distant cousin (more chances of common ancestor being the same in broad sense of family tree)) since you are so fond of ancient traditions?

Your way of life-
Anyone who disagrees with me, is wrong and evil. Everyone should be like me and follow my belief. Free opinion is bad. Everyone should believe that mustache is good.

My way of life-
While I prefer to live clean shaven, I understand that one can "choose" to have a mustache. Therefore, it is my belief that one can choose the way he wants to live, at the same time I discourage (but not force/impose) such practice as it is unhygienic. Anything wrong with that?

Such a way of life may be hard for you to grasp, because it involves, interpreting things from both sides. Playing cheap tricks and the sardar card is not going to help here at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spadival

Only an unlettered idiot (To be polite, I won't quote examples here) would have to lie. Students are legally allowed 20 hours of work per week on their STUDENT VISA. On completing their studies, they are legally allowed to accumulate work experience in their area of study for a year to qualify for PR. And I am not even a student here, but I still know these facts.

I wont buy that crap from you- 1 year Internship after completing studies (or also known as OPT in some countries) is one thing, but later applying for settlement and job is another - knowingly lying to the visa officer about intent to study and later planning to settle is a crime- Go look it up anywhere. You are required to complete your studies, and the internship, pack your bags and go back to where you came from!

**Keep in mind, I am not really against their (false) intention to stay back, but i am specifically talking about LIES to the VISA officer** And this is the very reason they are getting kicked from behind, as job insecurity is agitating the local Aus communities.

The uncivilized Aus lot will show their anger by beating up people. The civilized Aus lot will although not show it visibly, but will still have personal/hidden anger within them. After all , Australia belongs to Australians, not Indians.

Last edited by ported_head : 11th June 2009 at 13:22.
Reason: Cleaning out the graphic statements.

Originally Posted by harit
Then we saw our new foreign minister making a statement on TV. Oh, soooo weak, no wonder no one takes Indian politicians seriously. We have no strong personalities to take a tough stand. Appearance and a strong voice are very much required.

I agree many politicians fail creating an impact. Please don't take me in an offensive way. Have you seen the resume's of some of our politicians including Manmonhan Singh? Better than many you could be defending. Now lets take famous Lalu; everyone considers him illiterate did you know there is a group from Harvard university who is working with him to understand how he managed to make our railways profitable. I do not think Lalu has a college degree. I apologize for being Off Topic here.

Hi D-Man, BTW recently the world celebrated your day, the D-Day landings at Normandy.
I too have received the forward on the prime ministers resume. I am very fond of forwards, you see/read some amazing stuff, good humor etc. But I never forward to others for good luck, only if I find the forward interesting. The prime ministers resume is indeed credible, but does that generally mean he is capable? He is a brilliant economist, thats for trade & finance. I do not think that the prime minister and president of Pakistan are as qualified. But in rheoteric, they outclass us. We have no one to show any toughness. It is not resume alone, personality too is required. A person in that position will generally know in which department he lacks and at least will make use of colleagues to play the tiger. But when the home minister meekly advises the student to study..........
You must have encountered at some time a convoy of cars bearing politicians. Did you notice how these puny fellows misuse the cops to brow beat the public into submission and get the roads cleared for them? But when it comes to being JUST A BIT indignant when India is at a receiving end, they just appear like soft sponge. Just notice the difference in body language between our and Pakistani leaders post-November Mumbai attacks.

About Lalu, less said the better. The man was just sitting at the helm of the railways, he did not run it. What he ran was Bihar, and he ran it into the ground. During his time I purchased a car from Bihar. It was removed in a convoy of 10 trucks under police escort! If Lalu was the phenomenon some think he is, then why is only Harwards enamoured with him? No further comments.

And you do agree that many politicians fail to make an impact.

I am just clarifying and expanding the point about our leaders, please do not take it in any other way.

Indian lot remains one of them most unhealthy in the world. Keep munching those friedfood/burger/pizza/cola - because it "looks" so damn cool and modern!!! Even starving Ethiopians can beat you in a simple 1 mile run (i.e., if you can actually make it through 1 mile). This is exactly the very reason why I dont consume Cola diet.

if you made that clear in the beginning, we wouldn't have had to discuss it in this thread.

Quote:

When I was a kid, my classmate told me that if i dont wear jeans, i will be considered "backward". I always wonder why, because climate was so hot in India, yet people wear jeans Such strong was the influence from the MTV culture that they made every Indian buy Levi jeans and live sweaty and smelly in hot/humid indian climate - only to give Levis, a foreign company, some profit. Wearing jeans, Indians only ended up with loss of sense of fashion - for a country that is known to produce quality silk and cotton, and other good blend of materials.

just curious, do you use air conditioner, in car, home, train, restaurant or otherwise?

Quote:

I can understand why being hygienic is the last thing that comes to your mind - require no explanation.

So, do you also believe in Caste system (which is as good as marrying distant cousin (more chances of common ancestor being the same in broad sense of family tree)) since you are so fond of ancient traditions?

I don't know how caste system came in here, but true, to keep our elders and family happy, at times one has to obey the rules of community, or caste. And I am not going to pass a judgment on anybody's way of life.

While you are encouraging the hygienic faces, why not correct the spelling too at this time? I was just LOLing because once you said you had no problems with it. Just say it, it's perfectly fine to dislike something.

Last edited by ported_head : 11th June 2009 at 13:23.
Reason: Quoted post cleaned up

Yes, it's wrong, no doubt. But it's also wrong to paint every attack on an Indian as a racist attack.

Obviously they will, why would they accept themselves to be racists. Even if there are one-off incidents which borders racism, why would the whole nation be termed as racists? Our media is to be blamed if there is increase in such attacks in down under. You are trying every other way to paint that nation as racists and then expect them sit quite and except that? Everyone have limit to their patience and once it wear out thin you can expect a backlash too.

Do you expect us to declare a war or something against Australia? Come on, we have better ties with Australia then with some other neighboring countries and the diplomatic conversations/statements will ofcourse be different.

I hope they are investigating the incidents as any respectful nation would do and hope there will be some good outcome out of it. The guilty must be punished and no one have a second opinion about it.

As Goa cases are isolated cases then why not attacks in Australia are also isolated cases?

How many Australians have you ever actually met and interacted with? From your post it's evident that you are making your comments based on what you've seen on cricket ground by some cricketers. Please, that's not at all a correct way to judge a nation and I would request you to refrain from it.

May be, but to many it seems like the attacks are because of this attitude or may be the attitude have something to do with the attacks. But anyway, I would reserve my comments here.

Yes, we are

Exactly are my thoughts and our media is very much to blame for if things deteriorate to rock bottom. Media is becoming too judgemental these days and they really need to be censored to a certain extent.

Huh? What was that?

I re-read my post and that of our fellow member and am left puzzled. Is there somthing in my post that is invisible to me? I NEVER CALLED THESE ATTACKS RACIST. Please show me where I erred. Anyway, I am glad that at least you agree that these attacks are wrong.
Next, you seem to admit that some of these attacks border racism (pl note, I use this word the first time), but how can you term these as one off incidents? This is an insult to the Indian student community in Australia. Are they crazy to go so much GAGA over isolated incidents? I feel that your sense of proportion is out of sync.

When I mention that the Australian authorities were in denial, you say that it is obvious, they would not accept themselves to be racist (again, your word). But that has been proven wrong, finally they did make statements. And if they were not in denial earlier, they could have geared up and moved to stem the number of attacks. Till Pakistan denied that the Mumbai attacks were planned & executed from their soil, they could not take any steps towards any investigation. You blame the Indian media as a likely cause for a backlash, I wonder how many of those hooligans watch Indian news channels to react?

So a hypothetical scenario based on this post: Indian gets brutalised. Indian media reports this. Aussie hooligan reads/sees/listens to Indian media reporting incident. Aussie hooligan brutalises another Indian (the backlash). This scenario to go on till Indian media stops reporting these crimes (yes that is what these attacks are). How funny.

'Declare a war against Australia' Huh? Who said anything about that. Our authorities, the government, the consulates must make statements and show at least some solidarity. Did you see how Italian consulate representatives were at the Trident during the attack, where one cook, an Italian national was trapped with family. Or how the British and German consular officials were present in Goa when there were those ISOLATED incidents? One country which manages to look after their citizens among the best is Germany. They even got a convicted citizen out of Malaysia who was sentenced to hang and he was guilty. I never saw any Indian consular official anywhere near the Indian students. Need not be present on the road during protests, could have just visited a student lying in hospital. Did any of that happen? I hope so, but unlikely. Goa attacks were really isolated, and I am wondering how these are so few when you see the way many of them expose themselves. If you do go to Goa, do check this out. But a few months of attacks on Indian students in Australia does not qualify as isolated. And you HOPE that the Australian authorities are investigating these incidents and HOPE that something good comes out of that. Are you serious?

Now my problem with you. I repeat two paras:

Quote:
Originally Posted by haritThere is a big problem of attitude as well. Many Australians are boorish, like at Simon & Co. On the other hand, our Desi's do have an attitude too, too loud, and a particular community is very guilty of this. But that does not justify these attacks. These attacks are against persons, civility does not permit and the Australian Government must come out strongly against this. The authorities do not appear to have done much so far, but Australian friends can tell us more.

How many Australians have you ever actually met and interacted with? From your post it's evident that you are making your comments based on what you've seen on cricket ground by some cricketers. Please, that's not at all a correct way to judge a nation and I would request you to refrain from it. .[/quote]

I think that I was quite balanced in my post, there are both Australian and Indian folks who do tend to have attitudes. A large part of this thread has been devoted to that. But can you explain where have I judged a nation based on cricket? Many Australians are boorish, there is no doubt. And so are many Indians, particularly more so when abroad. I myself experienced this just 5 days ago in Europe.
And to your question, do I know Australians? Yes I do. So you 'evidenced' wrong. Not so smart. I have not only friends, but also family friends of non Indian origin known for years and many, many aquaintances.
One more thing. Many of your statements are personal. I have not judged a nation. Where have I done so? I have stated that the Australian Government should take steps, crticised the Australian high commissioner. And mentioned the boorish hooligans over there, I never referred to them as "Australians" as a nation. That would have been generalisation of a nation, but every nation has its hooligans. Just go through the previous posts in this thread and see how Indian students abroad are being generalised. How come you have not objected to that?

BTW, do you need to proove your credentials to anyone in Australia? Guess not, but this question comes up after reading your post. Now I feel that you have either not read or understood my post properly.

Any student in Australia reading this, please do comment so that we have first hand feedback, and not only from the media.

While I prefer to live clean shaven, I understand that one can "choose" to have a mustache. Therefore, it is my belief that one can choose the way he wants to live, at the same time I discourage (but not force/impose) such practice as it is unhygienic. Anything wrong with that?

Some consistency and evidence would be nice before you state your beliefs.

Consistency: Initially, you stated shave the mustache because the Aussies won't like it. When it was pointed out to you that many Aussies are indeed proud of their mustaches, you brought in your hygiene card. Just make up your mind before you state your beliefs.

Evidence: All right, so you say its unhygienic. Well, back it up with facts and evidence. While you are at it, check if shaving your eyebrows would make you more hygienic. eyebrows are facial hair too.. you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohit

I wont buy that crap from you- 1 year Internship after completing studies (or also known as OPT in some countries) is one thing, but later applying for settlement and job is another

LOL..This "crap" you so desperately dont want to buy, is on the Govt of Australia - Dept of immigrations & Citizenship website. Since you appear to be lettered, I suggest you go look it up yourself.

Even starving Ethiopians can beat you in a simple 1 mile run (i.e., if you can actually make it through 1 mile). This is exactly the very reason why I dont consume Cola diet.

Hey, now that is different. I never thought of that. The next time Indians are victimized, they can run away from those unhealthy cola-drinking racists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohit

climate was so hot in India, yet people wear jeans

By the way, Jeans are made of cotton. Over 50% of the world's jeans are made in India. Almost 100% of the jeans available in India are made in India.

And a major part of tribal India lived topless less than 150 years ago. Somehow they got convinced by the evil west to wear clothes over their well-tanned beautiful exposed bodies. It was the best thing for our climate. I'm with you aerohit - I say bring it back, at least for the ladies, who are suffering the most!

Quote:

While I prefer to live clean shaven, I understand that one can "choose" to have a mustache.

I am trying to place the moustache into this conversation but I cannot. I am lost.
Is it related to the cola in any way?

You know, (hygienically) kiss the Australian girls and then run a mile away?

Last edited by ported_head : 11th June 2009 at 13:25.
Reason: Quoted post has been cleaned up of certain graphic material. Hence, some of this post had to be edited.

I have been laughing at the jokes on katori cut and all
However i am not sure about the lame allegations going on against racism in aussie.
I have been to sydney and melbourne several times - i have family and friends in australia as well as closely work with office colleagues there. All the people I know in aussie are sorry about the crimes which are happening and would want justice for those affected, so would I.
However I don't think anyone has the right to declare australia as a racist nation - all of the australians i know are nice people and on more than one ocassion, they have asked me if i would like to movie there. So they are not racist or un-welcoming in any way - sure some parts of the population maybe apprehensive of losing jobs to immigrants due to recession, but the majority of them realise that they are all immigrants on that land and everyone deserves a fair chance.
As far as students go, yes they are allowed to work there part time while studying and infact subject to meeting certain requirements, encouraged to settle there. After all if they have given quality education to students, they would like to retain these talents for their own nation. Having said that there are people who go there just to study and then come back, while there are others who like the place and lifestyle and carry on staying there. I think everyone has the right to live and work where-ever they feel good.

There is no debate really on the fact that attacks are happening, but then step out and walk on our isolated roads in india and you can get attacked too, more so if you are a women or someone who looks like a tourist. People who seem most vulnerable can get attacked and robbed. If post or during the attack a racist remark is made to ridicule that in know way represents the entire nation's sentiment.

Also I am not sure about the sub-par universities in aussie, however education levels in most universities in aussie are really good. They have a lot of emphasis on practical experiences as well some unique subjects and specialisations to choose from. Example, try finding a good masters in computer security degree course in india from a reputable university. Another example is if you want to become a doctor in psychology, you could do a phd in India, but the course content and patient counselling experience in aussie is way way better - not to mention the fact that pscyhology docs are not respected and can only work in mental hospitals in india, however they have a real career opportunity in australia upon graduation.
So all in all if things work for you in another country, by all means go and make your life there. If you keep thinking you are indian and will be a target of racist attacks, then that is what you will get, if you think you are a human being and you will do good in whatever you want to achieve, you will. Ultimately you make your own reality, you are a manifestation of your own thoughts.

Hey, now that is different. I never thought of that. The next time Indians are victimized, they can run away from those unhealthy cola-drinking racists.

I don't know about everyone else, but I've got 2 of those.

By the way, Jeans are made of cotton. As is the underwear that houses the equipment. Over 50% of the world's jeans are made in India. Almost 100% of the jeans available in India are made in India.

And a major part of tribal India lived topless less than 150 years ago. Somehow they got convinced by the evil west to wear clothes over their well-tanned beautiful exposed bodies. It was the best thing for our climate. I'm with you aerohit - I say bring it back, at least for the ladies, who are suffering the most!
I am trying to place the moustache into this conversation but I cannot. I am lost.
Is it related to the cola in any way?

You know, (hygienically) kiss the Australian girls and then run a mile away?

OK, 14 pages, 205 posts and I am now wondering what is this thread about...? Is it on the plight of (some/most) Indians in foreign countries? Or,is it about how Indians are bringing disgrace on themselves? Or, is it on should Indians ban foreign culture just because it is foreign and not check out the benefits? Or, is it on I don't like it and God help you if you disagree? OR, is it on personal hygiene (??). Somewhere the cast also showed it's head and religion was also discussed.

Interesting to note that while this thread started on the PHYSICAL violence on Indians in foreign land, Australia in particular, it ended up in a internal "bashing"

This is not the way fellas. It seems like a few more disgareements in this tone and a lot of us will look sheepish in the next meet.

Take a step back and take a few deep breaths before you choose to respond to a post. We are, unfortunately, as usual, losing focus. It is like, we are more interested in catching up with the the erring driver in the other car and teaching him/ her a lesson rather than enjoying the drive and reaching safely.

I would sit back and watch all the fun here if I were an Australian or American. Hell I might have copy pasted the thread and sent it across to my friends too. Don't do what you are complaining against guys!

While I prefer to live clean shaven, I understand that one can "choose" to have a mustache. Therefore, it is my belief that one can choose the way he wants to live, at the same time I discourage (but not force/impose) such practice as it is unhygienic. Anything wrong with that?

What about sporting a beard, Sir? Is that also unhygienic? What about hair on your head? If beard and moustache are unhygienic, then so is your crown, no? Are you bald as well? What about your.... oh wait, i dont think i can ask that here!

Sorry for going OT, i am just trying to understand a fellow human being's point of view here.

@Aerohit: take a chill pill mate! You call India poor? who are you comaring our national debt and Gdps with?
Indians are unhealthy right? dont make a generalized statement when you really havent seen the world. psst have you been to china? their gdp is high lol but you should see their kitchens. Have you been to trailer parks in US, Australia? or even mexico? " you are funny"

Jeans: not sure if you really are aware of what jeans are made of.

STICK TO THE TOPIC

Last edited by ported_head : 11th June 2009 at 13:26.
Reason: Quoted post has been edited of certain graphic material, hence this post had to be edited too.