World Families Forums - New SNP Downstream of L21

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The Gaston actually inherits the WAMH, which is uncommon for the Leinster cluster. However, this could open up more testing to those who don't match ALL key markers for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

You know, a good portion of the cluster has Norman surnames and I wonder if some of the Irish surnames are actually descendants of Norman settlers. I was just informed of a 25 marker match with a Newell, a Hiberno-Norman surname.

The Gaston actually inherits the WAMH, which is uncommon for the Leinster cluster. However, this could open up more testing to those who don't match ALL key markers for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

You know, a good portion of the cluster has Norman surnames and I wonder if some of the Irish surnames are actually descendants of Norman settlers. I was just informed of a 25 marker match with a Newell, a Hiberno-Norman surname.

Or it may just be history repeating itself. I would guess that most significant groups of prehistoric settlers who came directly to Ireland from the continent rather than via Britain launched their boats from northern France. It may be that many Normans who arrived in Ireland had the same north French origin and y-lines as prehistoric settlers who came to Ireland. Historians have commented on how the origin myth of the Leinstermen set in prehistory wherebye the Gauls were invited over was repeated again in historical times when Dermot McMurrough invited the Normans. to Ireland. This all could account for the mixture of both Irish and Norman surnames in the Leinster cluster.

Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21. That kind of amazes me. I am not sure what people are waiting for.

I think the reason is that L21 covers such a large area, and people are looking for a SNP or marker that designates a SPECIFIC geographic area. I think we're slowly getting to that point, and I agree that L21 has done much for advancing research and theory. But people will still want more resolution.

I think the overall issue is we need a better way to obtain a more accurate sampling frame of the overall population.

That's the problem with the Leinster cluster. Members have matches from all over, from Norway to France, but getting them to test is almost futile. So we're stuck with a premise that the cluster's origins are in Britain and Ireland. I'm not opposed to such an origin, but there's blatant sampling bias at work here.

It appears some only want to sample those populations that will support their theories.

"Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21. That kind of amazes me. I am not sure what people are waiting for."

People are waiting for validation from the academic professional community, which is utterly ridiculous. Nobody needs to tell me its okay to do good science.

Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21. That kind of amazes me. I am not sure what people are waiting for.

All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?[/quote]

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2. I think those ideas could only be sustained if you ignore the huge isles testing biase and focus on absolute numbers instead of what % of R1b that L21 is in each area. To look simply at absolute numbers is completely illogical of course. Every 2nd French R1b1b2 person tested is L21 and the dominance of L21 in places like France and SW Germany can be seen by looking at the project maps for all the clades in this area while taking on board the fact that L21 has only been available for a very short time compared to S21 and S28. Despite that, L21 is already the biggest clade of the biggest haplotype (and therefore the modal) in those areas. To be honest I think some people just didnt want the believe this. I have been so firm on this because I have kept a close eye on L21 in France and although the numbers tested were then too small for full credibility of any statistics, French L21 testing has since only half a dozen tests were hovered steadily around the 50% positive result mark, give or take. Cross comparison of the Rhineland clade project maps seems to roughly indicate approaching 40% of R1b there is L21 too. Again, note that L21 has only been available for testing for a fraction of the time of S28 etc.

So, L21 stands a very good chance of being the modal for NW Europe west of the Rhine. Clearly its out of the question to explain this size of input by an out of isles scenario of any sort when the historical and archaeological records are also considered. I posted several times that I thought that the Rhineland concentration was the visible eastern edge of an otherwise invisible (due to lack of testing) large L21 block mainly in France and that really does look like it is true. Its also silly to think France is OK but Germany must be wrong as an L21 source. That is based on modern ideas and stereotypes. The Rhineland and France were both parts of the same Gaulish territory in the past and their was no cultural distinction between France and SW Germany at that time.

All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2. ..... I posted several times that I thought that the Rhineland concentration was the visible eastern edge of an otherwise invisible (due to lack of testing) large L21 block mainly in France and that really does look like it is true. Its also silly to think France is OK but Germany must be wrong as an L21 source. That is based on modern ideas and stereotypes. The Rhineland and France were both parts of the same Gaulish territory in the past and their was no cultural distinction between France and SW Germany at that time.

I have to agree with you that the Rhineland was just the visible edge of old France. It only makes sense. Gaul was for Gauls and Gauls are Celts. Ireland and much of Britain was also Celtic. There certainly must be at least one common clade with this distribution... L21+. Some undefined pieces of P312* and probably U152 played a part of this too. There also might be a types of Hg I that hung out with these guys too, at least in parts of the distribution.

All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2. [/quote]Obviously you haven't read a certain discussion on another forum today.