Samson, Robaina said, described Hialeah as a ''vibrant city,'' with ''established neighborhoods,'' much like the northside of Chicago, where the Cubs play.

LuvSox

01-31-2006, 01:14 PM

Hialeah makes Uptown look like Glencoe.....

I'm not from Illinois, is that good or bad? :D:

Fenway

01-31-2006, 01:18 PM

I'm not from Illinois, is that good or bad? :D:

The racetrack closed because gamblers were afraid to go there. It is not a good area

LuvSox

01-31-2006, 01:22 PM

The racetrack closed because gamblers were afraid to go there. It is not a good area

So, in terms I can relate to, it's like parts of Gary IN.

Fenway

01-31-2006, 02:05 PM

So, in terms I can relate to, it's like parts of Gary IN.

let's just say the boom of Dade County hasn't arrived there yet

http://www.city-data.com/city/Hialeah-Florida.html

spiffie

01-31-2006, 02:08 PM

They like the Northside.
Here's the thing, the idea of a ballpark surrounded by restaurants and bars is not in and of itself at all a bad idea. The problem with Wrigleyville is the people who go to the games. The thing is that generally nowadays you would have to artifically create the neighborhood, as opposed to the Cubs who got lucky that they had the area grow around it. I say this because there's no way you could ever get a park built now without 15,000 parking spots allocated for it. And those tend to kill off the immediate neighborhood feel.

Hangar18

01-31-2006, 02:14 PM

Marlins president David Samson isnt too smart is he? He wants to model his new ballpark after a much-hyped museum that fills with brainless Sheep who drink too much and want to see the Sun. NICE GOING Samson.

Figures the spot theyve got in mind was the former Peerless Dade County Landfill. Build a replica of a Dump on the site of a former Dump. Ahhh the irony.
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

voodoochile

01-31-2006, 02:36 PM

Marlins president David Samson isnt too smart is he? He wants to model his new ballpark after a much-hyped museum that fills with brainless Sheep who drink too much and want to see the Sun. NICE GOING Samson.

Let me see...

He wants to build a stadium which guarantees large revenue streams no matter what? Wouldn't that guarantee the right to spend big money on the team all the time - you know sort of like the flubbies for the past 5 years or so? Wouldn't that in turn increase the teams chances of winning?

Just because the flubbies don't spend wisely and over value the minor league talent they do develop doesn't mean it's a bad business model - at least the first part of it (increase revenue by building a ballpark that people visit regardless of how good the team is).

Foulke You

01-31-2006, 04:24 PM

Let me see...

He wants to build a stadium which guarantees large revenue streams no matter what? Wouldn't that guarantee the right to spend big money on the team all the time - you know sort of like the flubbies for the past 5 years or so? Wouldn't that in turn increase the teams chances of winning?

Just because the flubbies don't spend wisely and over value the minor league talent they do develop doesn't mean it's a bad business model - at least the first part of it (increase revenue by building a ballpark that people visit regardless of how good the team is).
You make some good points, however, the only problem with that business model is not all fanbases buy into the whole "if you build us a nice ballpark, we will come" mentality. Miller Park, Comerica Park, and PNC Park are three beautiful modern ballparks that don't play to capacity crowds because the teams have largely been mediocre at best. Even established new ballparks that once packed the place like Jacobs Field and Camden Yards have shown some chinks in the armor as the teams became less competitive in recent years. The fans there are tired of the losing and won't flock to the ballpark as a destination if the team is dreadful. I believe Wrigley and Fenway are unique in this regard.

The other flaw in adopting the Wrigley business model is that one of the things that makes the park a destination is the fact that, regardless of what we Sox fans think, Wrigley is one of 3 "classic" ballparks still standing so it is an architectural curiousity and a destination for baseball fans nationwide. It is doubtful that fans around the league will flock to a new Marlins ballpark in droves just because it looks nice. It won't have any historical significance like a Wrigley or Fenway so it won't be a draw by itself.

Fenway

01-31-2006, 04:30 PM

It is doubtful that fans around the league will flock to a new Marlins ballpark in droves just because it looks nice.

Fans around the league? They have won 2 World Series in their short history and can not get South Florida fans to show up. It is a bad baseball town

Denver which was the most acceoted of the expansion teams as far as support ( even more than Phoenix ) has been stuck with a woeful team.

I am not sure Pittsburgh can ever be a baseball town as they didn't draw well even in the late 70's and early 90's when they were contending. Remember it was ATLANTA fans ( ironic ) that filled Three Rivers for the playoffs. Pittsburgh is a football town first, and maybe more of a hockey town. The Pirates are just there.

eriqjaffe

01-31-2006, 04:33 PM

Who can blame the Marlins for wanting to emulate Wrigley? Some of that club's best moments came on the north side. ;)

Foulke You

01-31-2006, 04:37 PM

I am not sure Pittsburgh can ever be a baseball town as they didn't draw well even in the late 70's and early 90's when they were contending. Remember it was ATLANTA fans ( ironic ) that filled Three Rivers for the playoffs. Pittsburgh is a football town first, and maybe more of a hockey town. The Pirates are just there.
True enough, however, Three Rivers was not a great ballpark as I understand it and even though PNC is beautiful, the Pirates have been god awful since beginning play at that park. It would be interesting to see if the Pirates ever become contenders one day (hold the laughter), if the city of Pittsburgh would fill up PNC.

Fenway

01-31-2006, 04:44 PM

I am not thrilled that the Red Sox are trying to make the area around Fenway Park into an East Coast version of Wrigleyville ( and they have admitted that is the model they are following )

They now have a year round sportsbar where the bowling alley was

ESPN was supposed to go in there and then the Red Sox decided they didn't need to pay for the name

http://gameonboston.com/

LuvSox

01-31-2006, 05:28 PM

Who can blame the Marlins for wanting to emulate Wrigley? Some of that club's best moments came on the north side. ;)

True, very true :D:

SOXintheBURGH

01-31-2006, 05:33 PM

True enough, however, Three Rivers was not a great ballpark as I understand it and even though PNC is beautiful, the Pirates have been god awful since beginning play at that park. It would be interesting to see if the Pirates ever become contenders one day (hold the laughter), if the city of Pittsburgh would fill up PNC.

Fans show up to PNC for good series.

Last Cards at Bucs game I went to the place was packed. Whenever SF comes in the place fills up. Hell, even when Chicago NL comes the place is packed because everyone in the country loves them Cubbies.

He wants to build a stadium which guarantees large revenue streams no matter what? Wouldn't that guarantee the right to spend big money on the team all the time - you know sort of like the flubbies for the past 5 years or so? Wouldn't that in turn increase the teams chances of winning?

Just because the flubbies don't spend wisely and over value the minor league talent they do develop doesn't mean it's a bad business model - at least the first part of it (increase revenue by building a ballpark that people visit regardless of how good the team is).

Absolutely! The Tribune company markets the ballpark, not the team. That's why they sell out win or lose. It's not the "Cubs experience", rather the "Wrigley experience".

MiamiSpartan

02-01-2006, 08:17 AM

I saw that in the Herald yesterday. Don't know why they keep comparing their stadium to that hell whole. Most Marlin fans actually hate the cubs and their fans from the 2003 playoffs.

soxinem1

02-01-2006, 08:42 AM

This just shows how dense people are, especially when they are not from a city and make contrary assumptions. It's one thing I cannot stand about carpetbaggers like this guy from the Marlins who thinks he knows anything about Chicago.

First of all, check the crime stats around Wrigley and the Cell. You'd be suprised how they tilt negatively towards Wrigley. So much for safety issues.... Maybe they should take an educated field trip before making some pre-conceived statement like that.

Plus all the posts in this thread raising the Wrigley issue are valid points. Make **** sound like a bottle of Bollinger and people will flock to it. None of the recent new parks in more established cities couldn't get past the first season before the attendance numbers sagged. They have to realize that a unique situation like Wrigley is not going to happen anywhere else, especially when a team with two World Series Championships in eight years drew 3 million its first year, then 2 million just once after that. So you can build the restaurants, gift shops, arcades, local Hall of Fames, etc., but if you don't win, you will not draw.

The Marlins have really struggled to establish a fan base, and the two fire sales did not help. Their best bet would be to move the team to a city that's willing to build them a stadium and engage in some heavy PR.

Better yet, they should just stay in Florida and share the great Tropicana Field with the D-Rays. The just might draw 3 million (combined).

Hangar18

02-01-2006, 09:45 AM

You make some good points, however, the only problem with that business model is not all fanbases buy into the whole "if you build us a nice ballpark, we will come" mentality. Miller Park, Comerica Park, and PNC Park are three beautiful modern ballparks that don't play to capacity crowds because the teams have largely been mediocre at best. Even established new ballparks that once packed the place like Jacobs Field and Camden Yards have shown some chinks in the armor as the teams became less competitive in recent years. The fans there are tired of the losing and won't flock to the ballpark as a destination if the team is dreadful. I believe Wrigley and Fenway are unique in this regard.

The other flaw in adopting the Wrigley business model is that one of the things that makes the park a destination is the fact that, regardless of what we Sox fans think, Wrigley is one of 3 "classic" ballparks still standing so it is an architectural curiousity and a destination for baseball fans nationwide. It is doubtful that fans around the league will flock to a new Marlins ballpark in droves just because it looks nice. It won't have any historical significance like a Wrigley or Fenway so it won't be a draw by itself.

Excellent Excellent Excellent Point. The Problem with the Cubs as a team and an organization, is theyve RUINED alot of things in baseball, including the tainting of the basic baseball business model. You would think that building a nice ballpark guarantees you sellouts? No. The cubs are the opposite. They have a bogus ballpark thats only claim to fame is that its OLD (and historic) in conjunction with a fanbase that is NOT the smartest around, and youve got the makings for a what we see up north. The Marlin fans are alot smarter than cub fans ....

Hangar18

02-01-2006, 09:48 AM

This just shows how dense people are, especially when they are not from a city and make contrary assumptions. It's one thing I cannot stand about carpetbaggers like this guy from the Marlins who thinks he knows anything about Chicago.

First of all, check the crime stats around Wrigley and the Cell. You'd be suprised how they tilt negatively towards Wrigley. So much for safety issues.... Maybe they should take an educated field trip before making some pre-conceived statement like that.

Plus all the posts in this thread raising the Wrigley issue are valid points. Make **** sound like a bottle of Bollinger and people will flock to it.

YUP. Thats what happens when you say "Who Cares" when the Media keep pushing LIES to the masses (Comiskey Dangerous-Wrigley Safe)

Excellent Excellent Excellent Point. The Problem with the Cubs as a team and an organization, is theyve RUINED alot of things in baseball, including the tainting of the basic baseball business model. You would think that building a nice ballpark guarantees you sellouts? No. The cubs are the opposite. They have a bogus ballpark thats only claim to fame is that its OLD (and historic) in conjunction with a fanbase that is NOT the smartest around, and youve got the makings for a what we see up north. The Marlin fans are alot smarter than cub fans ....

How do you taint a business model? Design one that doesn't make money? :rolleyes:

The flubbies may be a crappy team to root for, but they haven't done squat to taint baseball though they may have tainted the Sox a bit in their drive for market dominance.

Heck, isn't that whole "sunshine and natural grass" part of the "crack of the bat and whiff of hot dogs" that goes with the mystique of baseball as a whole? If anything they are marketing "America's Pasttime" just the way it's supposed to be marketed. Yeah, they suck at building a winner and the fans are sheep, but their marketing scheme is definitely spot on.

Like it or not, it's still just entertainment and that means entertainment money. If people are entertained watching a bad team choke year after year and celebrate losing, more power to the people who sold it to them. I mean marketing people have been trying for year to figure out a way to sell dog**** to the masses and make them like it. The flubbies and cubune have succeeded, you have to tip their hat to them.

Hangar18

02-01-2006, 10:26 AM

How do you taint a business model? Design one that doesn't make money? :rolleyes:

The flubbies may be a crappy team to root for, but they haven't done squat to taint baseball though they may have tainted the Sox a bit in their drive for market dominance.

Heck, isn't that whole "sunshine and natural grass" part of the "crack of the bat and whiff of hot dogs" that goes with the mystique of baseball as a whole? If anything they are marketing "America's Pasttime" just the way it's supposed to be marketed. Yeah, they suck at building a winner and the fans are sheep, but their marketing scheme is definitely spot on.

Like it or not, it's still just entertainment and that means entertainment money. If people are entertained watching a bad team choke year after year and celebrate losing, more power to the people who sold it to them. I mean marketing people have been trying for year to figure out a way to sell dog**** to the masses and make them like it. The flubbies and cubune have succeeded, you have to tip their hat to them.

The Tribune Got lucky. They had WGN/Tribune able to spread their "message" across the world + the fact they have the Dumbest Fans In Baseball. It worked.

People in General DO NOT Fill Up Stadiums every day to watch bad teams. They just dont do it. Ask the Pirates.
Ask the Reds. The Cubs have tainted the model because it gets away from the model because it glorifies a losing and its stadium. Everyone cant do that. But people will try. The Fact that the Florida Marlins think they can buck history and want to mold themselves after one of the losingest Franchises in history is deplorable. Bud Selig seems to think that if everyone gets a new stadium, you can "compete" (translation: $$$$$$) Bud finally realizes this doesnt work either.

Ol' No. 2

02-01-2006, 10:30 AM

The Tribune Got lucky. They had WGN/Tribune able to spread their "message" across the world + the fact they have the Dumbest Fans In Baseball. It worked.

People in General DO NOT Fill Up Stadiums every day to watch bad teams. They just dont do it. Ask the Pirates.
Ask the Reds. The Cubs have tainted the model because it gets away from the model because it glorifies a losing and its stadium. Everyone cant do that. But people will try. Bud Selig seems to think that if everyone gets a new stadium, you can "compete" (translation: $$$$$$) Bud realizes this doesnt work either.The White Sox won the World Series. Why should any of us care if the Flubs draw 10 million a year? :dunno:

roylestillman

02-01-2006, 10:52 AM

Things have changed in the last few years. The safe/not safe arguement has started to fade (Stateway/Taylor torn down to the east, $600,000 houses lining Normal Ave. to the west.) and is being replaced by lots to do Wrigleyvile (sp. intentional) vs dull Cellville. The deal is market the unique-to-Chicago-baseball tailgating which has become an event that is drawing friends of mine. - or something even more unique: Winning Baseball.

slavko

02-01-2006, 10:56 AM

The other flaw in adopting the Wrigley business model is that one of the things that makes the park a destination is the fact that, regardless of what we Sox fans think, Wrigley is one of 3 "classic" ballparks still standing so it is an architectural curiousity and a destination for baseball fans nationwide. It is doubtful that fans around the league will flock to a new Marlins ballpark in droves just because it looks nice. It won't have any historical significance like a Wrigley or Fenway so it won't be a draw by itself.

Somebody's been brainwashed by a media giant. There are architectural masterpieces of historical significance all over the Chicago area, but people don't go to see them several times a year. Once would seem to be enough, even if the place is of significance, which it isn't.

palehozenychicty

02-01-2006, 11:14 AM

The White Sox won the World Series. Why should any of us care if the Flubs draw 10 million a year? :dunno:

Amen.

soxinem1

02-01-2006, 01:45 PM

The Tribune Got lucky. They had WGN/Tribune able to spread their "message" across the world + the fact they have the Dumbest Fans In Baseball. It worked.

People in General DO NOT Fill Up Stadiums every day to watch bad teams. They just dont do it. Ask the Pirates.
Ask the Reds. The Cubs have tainted the model because it gets away from the model because it glorifies a losing and its stadium. Everyone cant do that. But people will try. The Fact that the Florida Marlins think they can buck history and want to mold themselves after one of the losingest Franchises in history is deplorable. Bud Selig seems to think that if everyone gets a new stadium, you can "compete" (translation: $$$$$$) Bud finally realizes this doesnt work either.

The only real exception I can think of, in baseball, I'm not sure about other sports, is the Mets when they came in the National League.

They drew great in the neglected Polo Grounds with downright terrible teams, much worse than anything the cubs put out there, except that 0-14 start from the 1997 cub squad.

The Mets were in the top three in attendance from the time they moved into Shea despite the fact the teams won no more than 73 games until 1969.

No one would care if the Marlins would market themselves as 'Loveable Losers', in fact, I think it would tick more people off.

So if any of these teams think they can replicate this, good luck. They should save the consultant fees and concentrate on winning.

Foulke You

02-10-2006, 12:02 AM

Somebody's been brainwashed by a media giant. There are architectural masterpieces of historical significance all over the Chicago area, but people don't go to see them several times a year. Once would seem to be enough, even if the place is of significance, which it isn't.
I'm not brainwashed. As I said in my previous post, REGARDLESS of what we Sox fans think, Wrigley Field is a Mecca for a lot of Major League Baseball fans. (*insert puke sound effect here*) They will go there to see the ballpark. All one needs to do is see the tour buses lined up outside the Urinal during the Summer to find proof of this.

Also, when they start playing professional baseball games at Hull House or at the Water Tower, then people would flock to those historical places several times a year too.

soxfan123

02-10-2006, 12:24 AM

Hialeah makes Uptown look like Glencoe.....

Samson, Robaina said, described Hialeah as a ''vibrant city,'' with ''established neighborhoods,'' much like the northside of Chicago, where the Cubs play.