"If you believe nothing, than stop believing you can make a difference. To you and your beliefs, you die, and that's it, no one cares. To Christians, you are a major pain in the neck, and we wish you just left us alone to love the Lord. You see, we've found something. Something you have obviously lost."

"My relationship with the Lord, don't you dare tell me it is fake. Is it yourrelationship with the Lord I am having? Is it for you that God gives me His love and mercy? The relationship I have is only for me and the Lord, and I know it is real, because it is personal. I suppose you lost yours, (Which can never be truely lost, because our God is the God that will love us) but why on earth, if you have no faith in God, and don't even care about God, so therefore have no care for anything related to God, such as religion and Heaven, and Hell, why do you care then if the world believes in God. Wouldn't you just say "They are wasting their time, but it doesn't matter anyways."? If you will not realize your primary mistake in turning away from the Lord, then stop trying to "convert" people out of their Love and faith for our Lord. I am slowly finding that atheism is a religion. If it were not so, people would not argue for it so hard as they do. You ask for intelligent people. Intelligence is nothing without wisdom. And if you think the knowledge of this world times a thousand will stop an ounce of wisdom inspired from the Lord, than prepare yourself to be run over by a train of devistation, and a huge waste of time. My God wants you back! He loves you too much. Stop hurting His people. Love the Lord again."

Just thought I'd share this. It's sad really. I see myself as a liberator of superstitious and even dangerous delusionary thinking.

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comments:

Sad, yes, but it is also obvious that your words have 'struck home,' that she knows you make sense and is begging you to 'shut up and go away' before she has to face that truth and lose her faith. I have sympathy with her, losing a faith is never painless, and there's always a period of guilt, of doubt, of wondering if the gain of truth is worth the cost of what you've lost. If she reads this, let me assure her it is, even though I'm sure she'll deny that your words were as convincing as I see them as having been.

if you have no faith in God, and don't even care about God, so therefore have no care for anything related to God, such as religion and Heaven, and Hell, why do you care then if the world believes in God.

I'll stop caring when the world stops trying to force it on me through clearly religiously motivated laws and regulations. As long as you aren't hurting anyone else, you can live your life by whatever code you want, but the second you start trying to force that life code on me, it becomes my concern. Until the population can get it through their heads that religiously motivated laws impinge on the civil liberties of anyone outside of the target religion, I'll keep fighting.

Hello there. "I see myself as a liberator of superstitious and even dangerous delusionary thinking"

Isn't that the same thing that you are trying to fight? because it sounds a lot like christianity... we fight to liberate people from delusionary and superstitious thinking.

reality is quite subjective and what for you is logic and wisdom, for us is delusionary thinking. sounds a lot like what paul used to say about being called "crazy" for preachiing the word of God.

atheism sounds a lot like just another type religion where its followers are blinded by the wisdom that they have found and where the aim is to show this TRUTH to others so that they can see the LIGHT.

and since it is all about faith, and beliefs cant really be argued then i will leave you with your own faith in the belief that there is nothing else other than yourselfs that there is no God.

i do however agree in the angst against Christians trying to impose beliefs on you. I think this is just immaturity and passionate belief. Kind of like you.

And until we stop BELIEVING what we both believe in,then this argument will go on for ages.

I'll stop caring when the world stops trying to force it on me through clearly religiously motivated laws and regulations. As long as you aren't hurting anyone else, you can live your life by whatever code you want, but the second you start trying to force that life code on me, it becomes my concern. Until the population can get it through their heads that religiously motivated laws impinge on the civil liberties of anyone outside of the target religion, I'll keep fighting.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm trying to impose something. Just the opposite. I recognize your right to believe and practice however you want, and I would never support any laws that in any way inhibited that. All I ask is the same courtesy. Two specific examples:

Bigotry and hatred against homosexuals is rampant, and entirely religious. I am not gay, but I fully support their fight for equal rights and privileges as straight couples. Nothing they do affects me in any way, shape or form. They live together as a couple, share expenses, and otherwise do everything any straight couple does, yet they can't enjoy the same legal privileges, which could be argued to be arbitrary, that straight couples have been given. I have never heard a non-religious objection to gay marriage that was sensible. Not once. Even the non-sensible, non-religious arguments are almost always parroted by the religious as an attempt to make them sound less religious.

Second example: Why should I as an atheist, or anyone as a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Sikh, or any other religion be force to walk by a monument of the Christian 10 Commandments to enter a public, government building, when that same government has laws to prevent it from favoring a particular religion? It serves as a government sanctioned imposition of another belief system, which is just as bad as any laws creating an official religion.

Nothing I'm asking will take anything away from your ability to worship how you wish. I simply want the same liberties to extend to everyone, not just certain groups.

Isn't that the same thing that you are trying to fight? because it sounds a lot like christianity... we fight to liberate people from delusionary and superstitious thinking.

Merriam-Webster dictionary defines superstition as:1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary

This sounds like Christianity to me (and most other religions, to be fair).

I'm a materialist. I believe in what can been seen, smelled, or touched. I believe we can apply the scientific method to those things that we can see, smell, or touch and figure out lots about what caused those things to come to where the are today. Using these methods, we know more about the universe than anyone 100 years ago could have ever dreamed of, and it's only getting better. I don't have to resort to a god to explain anything. If I can't explain it, I don't just superstitiously say "God did it!", I either try to figure it out from the evidence, try to find more evidence, or more often than not, wait for people with more resources than I to use their resources to find evidence. I don't have to worry about losing faith because evidence was found that invalidates a belief...that's what science is all about: finding new evidence to refine, or even refute, older theories so that newer, better theories can evolve.

atheism sounds a lot like just another type religion where its followers are blinded by the wisdom that they have found and where the aim is to show this TRUTH to others so that they can see the LIGHT.

and since it is all about faith, and beliefs cant really be argued then i will leave you with your own faith in the belief that there is nothing else other than yourselfs that there is no God.

I think I've already adequately covered this, but I'll reiterate: I don't take anything on faith. Faith is belief without evidence. I base everything I believe on the evidence available, and I'm constantly reevaluating that evidence and the conclusions they lead to. I take nothing for granted, because, as has been proven time and time again, one piece of evidence can drastically change the way we think about the universe, and that is the ultimate non-religion you can find. I don't try to convert, I simply address, and hope that at least a little of what I say gets through.

The Bible doesen't teach that John could have lost his salvation. The Bible teaches John once upon a time became a false convert. He was told to put on Christ for the wrong reasons. Instead of putting on Christ for righteousness, John put on Christ in hope of financial gain. John was innoculated to the truth of the gospel and now realizes he was never saved from the wrath of God to come to begin with. John was a false convert in the first place according to the Bible.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

The problem is John never really turned from his evil deeds. John was never broken over his wicked deeds against God. John never wanted to turn from evil. That's what John's problem is, he never became a new creation.

What you are saying is, frankly, moronic. You are not John. He gave his reasons for leaving faith behind. You cannot assert your belief on why he deconverted without people frequenting this website concluding that you are an idiot. You do not know why he left - you only have his word. If your brother or sister deconverted, you would be in no position to claim that your brother or sister was a "false convert" or followed Christ for "the wrong reasons" or merely for "financial gain".

You are projecting your fear of losing your faith onto others. You cannot fathom that other Christians left the fold.

Neo_101, that's only one of the delusions you have. Maybe you ought to begin interpreting the Bible in light of the evidence instead of interpreting the evidence in light of the Bible. Maybe Calvinistic theology is wrong, for starters? Many Christians reject such thinking. Start there.

Please listen to me carefully. You really do sound like a moron. You're brandishing a pea-shooter as if it were a tank, and several people have taken the time to explain to you that your tactics are not working.

John:Neo_101, that's only one of the delusions you have. Maybe you ought to begin interpreting the Bible in light of the evidence instead of interpreting the evidence in light of the Bible. Maybe Calvinistic theology is wrong, for starters? Many Christians reject such thinking. Start there.

Evidence = John claims to have been a Christian and now went out from Christianity to prove he isn't a Christian.

Verify Evidence = 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

You should probably be made aware (as it seems that you must not be already aware) that arguments from the Bible do not have an effect on an atheist, anymore than arguments from the Quaran would have an effect on you.

That leads to a larger question: Why do many theists, especially Christians, seem to think that reading a few verses from their chosen holy book will suddenly have an atheist on their knees, repenting their sins, and asking forgiveness? I don't believe in any gods. By extension, I don't believe in the divinity of any holy books of any religion. Arguing any point with an atheist, using the Bible as evidence, is like bringing nothing at all to the discussion.

unix: You should probably be made aware (as it seems that you must not be already aware) that arguments from the Bible do not have an effect on an atheist, anymore than arguments from the Quaran would have an effect on you.

John is arguing from the Bible that he was a Christian. In response to that the Bible teaches he was decieved and proved it by claiming to fall away.

I'll tell you what neo_101, start a Blog and argue for Calvinism, or the once saved always saved doctrine. Invite Arminian Christians to debate this with you. Then when you all come to an agreement on the issue come back and tell me what it is. Until then drop this discussion. I'll let you debate this with other Christians.

In the meantime, you'll need to interpret the evidence of every member on this Blog as well as everyone mentioned here.

And if you want to stop dispensing stupidities, you can always investigate our claims. You can talk to people who know us (including past preachers and teachers, mothers and brothers), listen to our sermons, and read our Christian writings.

Until you do these things don't say another word on this issue. You've made your point, drop it. I delete unintelligent comments, and I will do so with yours. You see, we know differently. It'd be like me claiming you really do not believe as a Christian. Who am I to make that judgment?

Perhaps it is due to missing context, but your mention of the Bible is the first I have seen in the discussion. Regardless, that verse always had a weird vibe to me. As John said, it reeks of Calvinistic determinism, and from there, it is only a few steps away from complete absence of free will. I'm coming from a position where I can't really truly understand either of you, because I don't not think of myself as ever having been a Christian. I was raised in a Christian home, and I wanted to believe for some time because it didn't occur to me that there was another option, but after I realized there was nothing inherently bad about other belief systems comparatively, I realized that I didn't need, or believe, any of them. For a time when I was young, the Bible mattered to me, but it's importance waned as I got older. By the time I had my epiphany, it hadn't mattered for a while, but I finally acknowledge that fact. I would argue that if you truly believe in Christ and the Christian God, something I never really did, but I have no reason to doubt that John did, then there is not way you can argue that you aren't a Christian. Beliefs can change, however, and if you come to the point where you no longer believe, it is perfectly valid to say that you were a Christian, but aren't any longer, regardless of the opinion of one man in a letter.

Neo_101, I'm sorry but you've made your ignorant point already. You are just too ignorant, even as a Christian. Go take a few colleges classes and come back to us. This is not the place for you. Besides, I'm writing a new Blog entry on it now.

john:I have an interesting query for you:I've heard this many times from theists. That they have a relationship w/Christ, they can't explain it publicly, or they can't really, I dunno, flesh it out per se. I hear this so often: I have a BAX (born again xtian) buddy, who claims that 'gawd' told him the bible is inerrant, but when I press him for details (Do you hear a voice? "No, not really", or "Are there physical symptoms?", etc), he waffles. As you are extremely knowledgeable (far more than I could ever be) about the internal specifics of what a believer feels/thinks, etc., I was wondering if you could expand on this subject somewhat?If this is too intrusive, I apologize. But color me curious (yellow). I get the general fuzzy feeling concept, but there seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing (for myself).

Krystalline Apostate, Christians feel psychological sure of this just like Muslims. Ask them and they'll say they know Allah exists and the Koran is his word. These religious believers must talk themselves into faith because faith is rewarded by their respective gods both here and now.

"Bigotry and hatred against homosexuals is rampant, and entirely religious. I am not gay, but I fully support their fight for equal rights and privileges as straight couples. Nothing they do affects me in any way, shape or form. They live together as a couple, share expenses, and otherwise do everything any straight couple does, yet they can't enjoy the same legal privileges, which could be argued to be arbitrary, that straight couples have been given. I have never heard a non-religious objection to gay marriage that was sensible. Not once. Even the non-sensible, non-religious arguments are almost always parroted by the religious as an attempt to make them sound less religious."

Well, my opinion here is just that - my opinion. I think it is a valid point. I am a Christian, but I do believe that many of our laws keep homosexuals from having the same freedoms as other heterosexual couples. Let's face it, the Christians aren't up in arms over teen pregnancy, unwed couples, etc. While I do not believe that homosexuality is "morally right", I can't say that they are not entitled to fair treatment as human beings. True enough, many Christians believe they are not human beings at all. I just believe they should have the same freedoms. Marriage? I don't believe they can be married in the eyes of my personal belief of a God. But what does that have to do with their constitutional rights? If they want to live that way, so be it. You can't "catch" gay and the sooner Christians understand that, the better off they will be.

Second example: Why should I as an atheist, or anyone as a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Sikh, or any other religion be force to walk by a monument of the Christian 10 Commandments to enter a public, government building, when that same government has laws to prevent it from favoring a particular religion? It serves as a government sanctioned imposition of another belief system, which is just as bad as any laws creating an official religion.

Well, this is one I will have to disagree with. As a citizen of the United States, none of us have the right "not to be offended". There are alot of things that could "offend me" everyday as a Christian, however, I choose not to be offended. If I don't believe in anything "religiously speaking" other than the Bible, then why would it offend me to see something from the Muslim, Jewish, or any other faith? I think alot of people want america to be a "Christian" nation. By our actions as a whole, it hasn't been that in a long, long time if ever. In the words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along" LOL. If someone at my office doesn't like the color red, then should the government come in and tell me not to wear it? I do not agree with the government having the ten commandments up unless they are willing to put up everything else. For the Christians who think that is selling out, I would have to disagree. If I don't believe in it, it is not selling out. It is a non-issue. Hopefully that will make sense.Thanks again for letting me post. JB