To clarify, I loved how the old race/class combo would give a unique spell or two, it was really cool. But, regarding abilities like the dwarf's Fear Ward, some people would roll dwarf priests just for that only, and some guilds would force their priests to re-roll a dwarf for that very reason. I'd love to see race/class combo spell thingies return, but regarding that aspect I understand the need for them not to return.

I have confidence that if Blizz decides to have it return, they can hash out a system or new spells or whatever to combat that, but since I only know the old system described above I say we have to let race/class combos slide.

I am so for race and class specific quests though, and not the quests you get at level 20 to run a dungeon or two to get some bland weapon, quests that actually make you go out in the world and visit remote areas of the game, for example the old quest to get Warrior's Berserker Stance, that was an awesome quest.

Its either 1 class quest for each class or 11 general quests that all classes can do. It takes the same amount of time.

What do you prefer? I prefer 11 general quests...

11 less quests from the thousands of "kill millions of those mobs for 0.001% XP or few gold" or 1 class quest, which differs from class to class so breaks monotony of making alts, and has class-specific rewards, which are more often than likely some very useful ability or piece of gear which lasts you for quite a time? Not hard to see what is more appealing.

I feel that they need to change the talent systems if they want to increase immersion. I would even go to say they need a more intricate system than van/bc/wrath. Picking a spec used to be a really defining moment in character development and made every level feel like an achievement bringing you closer to your toon.

People are suggesting complex ways to make the game more immersive and more enjoyable. I don't believe that. I think the method to make WoW more immersive is actually very simple.

1. Restore class specific quests

Few things were more immersive than me being a Shaman and going around the world to commune with the elements. Granted some quests were tedious, but speaking with the various elementals really connected me to my class and made me feel special, and part of a larger world. Blizzard really needs to restore these aspects to the game.

2. Race specific quests

If I'm a Night Elf, I'd like to feel like my experience in the game is unique only to my race. You definitely get some of this in isolated starter zones, but I'd like to see it spread throughout your leveling experience and even at max level.

3. Race specific abilities

When I first played as a priest, I thought it was pretty cool how Night Elf priests got Star Shards and Forsaken got Plaque. I think Blizzard should bring back this feature, but only make the differences cosmetic. For example, you can have the spell do the same thing, but just have a different icon and animation. Sort of how Heroism/Bloodlust works among Shaman. This would give each race a bit of flavor, even if it really doesn't mean anything on the DPS meters.

Thoughts?

The immersion has gone once you have done a class quest once.
Immersion is not a one-off experience, but something you can experience regularly.

Originally Posted by panterarules

Good ideas.

I feel that they need to change the talent systems if they want to increase immersion. I would even go to say they need a more intricate system than van/bc/wrath. Picking a spec used to be a really defining moment in character development and made every level feel like an achievement bringing you closer to your toon.

There was nothing interesting about going along a route where 80% or more of it was already fixed and pre-determined.
Sure it might have been more interesting to get something every level, but the vast majority were incremental increases rather than anything new.
The points were boring when there were mandatory and useless routes you could take, and you would know 10 or 20 levels in advance exactly where it was going to go.

How about what new players or people wanting to reroll see after they log in; more in-depth character customization. I find it pretty ridiculous that every other MMORPG out there (F2P & sub based) have a customization interface that is much more creative and robust than WoW. Blizz keeps talking about how they don't want homogeneity and yet virtually every in-game avatar looks identical. The first thing that usually draw people to MMORPG's are the visuals. Character appearances are no different. I understand Blizz has the customization interface as it is to get people into the game quicker and added transmog so you can look cool while fighting but...it's been obvious over the years that Blizz is incapable of noticing the small details or is very slow in implementing them (ie. AoE looting).

There was nothing interesting about going along a route where 80% or more of it was already fixed and pre-determined.
Sure it might have been more interesting to get something every level, but the vast majority were incremental increases rather than anything new.
The points were boring when there were mandatory and useless routes you could take, and you would know 10 or 20 levels in advance exactly where it was going to go.

I found it interesting? I like incremental increases, it makes you feel like your getting stronger. Also, it really wasn't as +1% to things as people seem to remember. I'm not saying it was perfect, or even near perfect. I just liked the system and feel like there is a lot more opportunity for interesting development in the old system as opposed to the new. The new system doesn't interest me at all. It's beyond simple and i think i've only ever changed my bomb talent on my mage, everything else has stayed the same all throughout MoP.

Though it would be really neat to have happen, don't expect it anytime soon. Even SW:ToR is abandoning its class specific questing so the odds of WoW starting it all the sudden is extremely slim. Bottom line is they are never going to take away time from developing new max level stuff so they can make pre-max level stuff more interesting, especially when most people just blaze through that stuff anyway.

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - Carl Sagan

False facts are highly injurious to the progress of science, for they often endure long; but false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for every one takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness. - Charles Darwin

The other way to create immersion is to make each class unique, which is something they have completely abandoned ever since Cata.

Vanilla/BC Rogues were one of the only classes that could stun, the ONLY class that could stealth, and had great mobility via Sprint (since nobody else really had anything like that besides Druids).

Vanilla/BC Paladins were great Hybrids. As Prots and even Holy they could tank some instances (not all), rets were DPS/heal hybrids, and they had some utility with a long stun and bubbles.

Mages were long ranged casters with roots/slows and AoEs

Warlocks were DoT specialists with poor mobility but effective CC

Etcetc. Instead of expanding on those ideas (EX: The Hybrid Tax), they just decided to make every class nearly identical. Every class has a heal, every class has a near identical form of CC in some way. All classes deal near the same DPS, all classes having near-identical gap closers and escape mechanisms. I mean I understand WHY they did it, but it creates a very dull game.

I want to be a Rogue because of the mobility, stealth, evasion, and CC. Every class gets something similar to what my Rogue gets BESIDES stealthing, though. Rogue evasion is also about as poor as a DK or Warriors Parry, for example. Warriors also have superior mobility to Rogues while wearing Plate. Warriors and Rogues can HEAL? WHY?! Rogues should be about not getting hit, Warriors should be about not dying TO hits. The whole thing is just a mess to me.

The other way to create immersion is to make each class unique, which is something they have completely abandoned ever since Cata.

Vanilla/BC Rogues were one of the only classes that could stun, the ONLY class that could stealth, and had great mobility via Sprint (since nobody else really had anything like that besides Druids).

Vanilla/BC Paladins were great Hybrids. As Prots and even Holy they could tank some instances (not all), rets were DPS/heal hybrids, and they had some utility with a long stun and bubbles.

Mages were long ranged casters with roots/slows and AoEs

Warlocks were DoT specialists with poor mobility but effective CC

Etcetc. Instead of expanding on those ideas (EX: The Hybrid Tax), they just decided to make every class nearly identical. Every class has a heal, every class has a near identical form of CC in some way. All classes deal near the same DPS, all classes having near-identical gap closers and escape mechanisms. I mean I understand WHY they did it, but it creates a very dull game.

I want to be a Rogue because of the mobility, stealth, evasion, and CC. Every class gets something similar to what my Rogue gets BESIDES stealthing, though. Rogue evasion is also about as poor as a DK or Warriors Parry, for example. Warriors also have superior mobility to Rogues while wearing Plate. Warriors and Rogues can HEAL? WHY?! Rogues should be about not getting hit, Warriors should be about not dying TO hits. The whole thing is just a mess to me.

I am pretty sure ferals could stealth and mages had invisibility. Ferals had pounce and had better mobility. Shadow priest were pretty much the same thing as warlocks but they had worse cc which is till the case now. No class has sap, evasion, cloak of shadows, combat readiness, or feint. Rogues are about not being hit they are stupid squishy in mist and were in wotlk. Cyclone and sap both function differently one requires the target to be out of combat the other doesn't. Poly breaks on 1 point of damage but fear breaks on 10% of the targets hp hmmm... yup they are clearly all the same.

Couldn't warriors heal because of second wind, blood craze, and blood thirst in vanilla. Depends with cloak and dagger I would say your mobility is better when it matters but that is getting nerfed in 5.3.

Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2013-05-13 at 08:20 AM.

You're right except for 2 things.

1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

I am pretty sure ferals could stealth and mages had invisibility. Ferals had pounce and had better mobility. Shadow priest were pretty much the same thing as warlocks but they had worse cc which is till the case now. No class has sap, evasion, cloak of shadows, combat readiness, or feint. Rogues are about not being hit they are stupid squishy in mist and were in wotlk. Cyclone and sap both function differently one requires the target to be out of combat the other doesn't. Poly breaks on 1 point of damage but fear breaks on 10% of the targets hp hmmm... yup they are clearly all the same.

Couldn't warriors heal because of second wind, blood craze, and blood thirst in vanilla. Depends with cloak and dagger I would say your mobility is better when it matters but that is getting nerfed in 5.3.

(IN VANILLA) Invisibility left you unable to see others, Ferals could stealth but did lackluster DPS (Although their off-healing was very impressive), and they did NOT have Pounce. Ferals were supposed to imitate Rogues (as was their hybrid spec), but they did not have the control, openers, nor damage that Rogues did. Druids were probably the only class in the game that could trump Rogues in mobility, but that made sense. Leather wearing classes should be wearing light armor so they can move unencumbered. Tigers should be able to run faster than a fit two-legged Rogue. Shadow Priest did great damage but still less damage than a Warlock did and had no pet. Shadow Priests could offheal, though, but at a price. Shifting in/out of shadowform was costly and something that you didn't want to do, which is why Shadow Priest had such good damage for a hybrid.

(NOW) Warriors and Hunters have something similar to Evasion (I don't even know what the name of that swirling blades infinite-parry thing Warriors have). DK's have AMS which is almost a super powered CloS and on a MUCH shorter cooldown. Warriors have Shield Wall which is much better than combat readiness, DK's have IBF. Druids have Barkskin/Frenzied Regen+Survival Instincts. Etc. Shadow Priests and Ferals can both Vanish now. Feint and Sap are hardly enough flavor tools to make Rogue exceptionally different from other classes. All a Rogue can do for mobility is Sprint and/or Shadowstep/BoS. Warriors can charge, intercept, heroic leap, and probably some other BS I'm forgetting to mention.

The biggest thing Rogue has going for it right now is Smoke bomb, that is the only thing that it has that no other class even remotely has any form of.

They should have honestly kept going with the ROLE PLAYING GAME theme. Everyone can basically ignore armor now, making it pointless. Everyone has a similar ability of another class, and everyone does similar damage. If you wanted to be a hybrid, you should have expected to do less damage than a pure but have been required to off heal in a pinch. (THAT HURTS DPS OMGAWD!) But what if you could run dungeons with three hybrids and two pures, completely eradicating the need for a healer? What if the healer could only push out so many heals (Unlike now, where they can top off a tank in two GCD's from almost no health at all), that the tank would keep dipping lower and lower, and 5-6 seconds of offheals would be required to push the tank back up to 'reset' the fight? THAT to ME is a great concept that died off long ago.

Classes should all have their 'job', and specs shouldn't determine that. Specs should determine what flavor you are choosing. Having Paladins essentially be three totally different entities from each other was not how it used to be. A Holy Paladin could tank very well pre-50, a Ret Paladin could burst heal for 30~ seconds almost as good as a Holy Paladin could. Each Rogue class played differently, but had their own 'flavor'.

I am NOT saying Vanilla was perfect. It wasn't, at all. Warriors were the only tank, Prot paladins would run out of Mana way too fast with no real way of getting it back quickly, Rogues were TOO powerful, Warriors were an unstoppable force of nature, 40-man raids made things impossible, Rep grinding was far too painful, etc.

Having to wear resist gear is immersive. Having all classes completely different from one another logically based on their theme is immersive. Having to travel across the world to get to your 225+ trainer was immersive. I'm not even sure how I can word it without sounding lame, but I really hope I got the point across :/

People are suggesting complex ways to make the game more immersive and more enjoyable. I don't believe that. I think the method to make WoW more immersive is actually very simple.

1. Restore class specific quests

Few things were more immersive than me being a Shaman and going around the world to commune with the elements. Granted some quests were tedious, but speaking with the various elementals really connected me to my class and made me feel special, and part of a larger world. Blizzard really needs to restore these aspects to the game.

2. Race specific quests

If I'm a Night Elf, I'd like to feel like my experience in the game is unique only to my race. You definitely get some of this in isolated starter zones, but I'd like to see it spread throughout your leveling experience and even at max level.

3. Race specific abilities

When I first played as a priest, I thought it was pretty cool how Night Elf priests got Star Shards and Forsaken got Plaque. I think Blizzard should bring back this feature, but only make the differences cosmetic. For example, you can have the spell do the same thing, but just have a different icon and animation. Sort of how Heroism/Bloodlust works among Shaman. This would give each race a bit of flavor, even if it really doesn't mean anything on the DPS meters.

Thoughts?

I'm not against it at all. I'd love some more class quests and all that, but as a role player, I'm almost offended by 'immersion' being the new, overused, beat-the-horse buzzword. I guess you don't really use it like that in this thread, but I just wanted to say it. It's getting annoying seeing all these threads that are duplicate "WoW is dying/has died" threads with 'immersion' being the new substitute for what used to be 'community' or 'really epic epics". It doesn't make a good replacement for an actual argument.

How about what new players or people wanting to reroll see after they log in; more in-depth character customization. I find it pretty ridiculous that every other MMORPG out there (F2P & sub based) have a customization interface that is much more creative and robust than WoW. Blizz keeps talking about how they don't want homogeneity and yet virtually every in-game avatar looks identical. The first thing that usually draw people to MMORPG's are the visuals. Character appearances are no different. I understand Blizz has the customization interface as it is to get people into the game quicker and added transmog so you can look cool while fighting but...it's been obvious over the years that Blizz is incapable of noticing the small details or is very slow in implementing them (ie. AoE looting).

every other mmo out there doesn't have as many different playable races as wow has, in fact, there is more diversity between characters in wow than there is in other mmo games where there are mainly just human or human looking races

As much as i like the 2 first pointers the third one is a no from me. reason? fear ward.
This will just make it so the "hardcore" pvpers will swap to dwarf just for fear ward.....

Unless of course the unique abilities does the excat same thing (like having different animations for the devovering plague).
that could work, but unique abilities will just "force" pvpers to swap :P

If you had read his comment more closely, you would see that's exactly what he's saying; make the differences cosmetic. Right now, nothing is seperating Tauren Paladins from Human Paladins, they use the exact same abilities, yet I'm supposed to be in lore that they're two totally different faiths being followed.

As much as i like the 2 first pointers the third one is a no from me. reason? fear ward.
This will just make it so the "hardcore" pvpers will swap to dwarf just for fear ward.....

Unless of course the unique abilities does the excat same thing (like having different animations for the devovering plague).
that could work, but unique abilities will just "force" pvpers to swap :P

That's what I was talking about. For example, a Human Paladin would have Blessing of Kings, but a Blood Elf Paladin would have Sunwell's Gift. The two abilities would do exactly the same thing, but have different icons, different names, and different spell animation. Just a little something to add flavor to the two different types of Paladins.

I definitely agree with the idea that races should be more defined, both with race specific quests throughout and race specific animations (where applicable) Sunwalkers and blood knights might be paladins mechanics wise, but would very much suit having their own more suitable animations (and possibly go alll the way and include spell names etc too)

so more 'generic' classes like warriors probably wouldn't change much - and they already have kinda race specific attack animations anyway - should get MORE animations though, which I think following the monk release they are talking about?

1) Read the freaking quest texts! So many people cry about the lack of story while questing. There is plenty of story, but not if you don't read it!
2) Stop reading the forums. Nothing breaks immersion as reading all the crying and whining about subscriber loss and how WoW is dying.
3) Stop using Wowhead and alternatives. How can you be immersed if you look up every other quest and where you can find the mob?
4) Stop using questhelpers and guides. Immersion while only following an arrow and clicking 'accept'? No.
5) Put some effort into making friends, instead of crying about how LFR/LFD killed everything. If you need other people to immerse yourself in WoW (which, let's face it, has nothing to do with eachother), go find those people. Did you ever say more then 'hi' in a dungeon?

The game doesn't have to change to get the immersion 'back', it was never gone. The people have to change.