The discussion about definition of an atheist gave me this idea. When studying beliefs such as Christianity, atheism, agnosticism, etc. maybe we should ignore the details of beliefs and simply study the implications on behavior, mental health, etc? For example, we might take some ideal atheists, ideal Christians, ideal Buddhists, etc. and measure various parameters - physical health, income, criminal background, whatever.

So for example, the definition of atheist becomes: a person whose parameters match the ideal atheist (as opposed to claiming to believe or not believe something).

This is analogous to the gender-identity tests where a person can be biologically one gender and behaviorally the other gender.

The discussion about definition of an atheist gave me this idea. When studying beliefs such as Christianity, atheism, agnosticism, etc. maybe we should ignore the details of beliefs and simply study the implications on behavior, mental health, etc? For example, we might take some ideal atheists, ideal Christians, ideal Buddhists, etc. and measure various parameters - physical health, income, criminal background, whatever.

So for example, the definition of atheist becomes: a person whose parameters match the ideal atheist (as opposed to claiming to believe or not believe something).

This is analogous to the gender-identity tests where a person can be biologically one gender and behaviorally the other gender.

How do you define “ideal Atheist” or “ideal Buddhist” while ignoring the details of their beliefs?

If we can’t find any measurable differences that result from a belief then I would argue that it isn’t very important.

Here is an example: Atheists believe that death is the end. Muslims believe they will be judged after death. We should be able to study terminally ill people and see a difference in the behavior of atheists and Muslims - particularly if they are ideals of their philosophy/religion. These are the types of things we could measure to understand beliefs top-down.

From a top-down view the beliefs inside the mind are not important. We should treat the mind as a black box and only look at the behavior of that ideal believer versus other types of ideal believers. In other words we don’t care what the atheist claims to believe or not believe.

From a top-down view the beliefs inside the mind are not important. We should treat the mind as a black box and only look at the behavior of that ideal believer versus other types of ideal believers. In other words we don’t care what the atheist claims to believe or not believe.

Then all atheists who do not believe in impossible things and exhibit intelligence and human compassion are ideal atheists. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.

Then all atheists who do not believe in impossible things and exhibit intelligence and human compassion are ideal atheists. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.

Lois

I’m not sure if human compassion should be a factor. My image of an ideal atheist would be an atheist from birth who has had minimal exposure to religious culture (maybe raised in the Soviet Union). We could collect those people into a sample and try to find common behaviors that contrast with behaviors of ideal Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/... Then we could use those behaviors as indicators of atheism.

Probably using the word “ideal” is confusing. “Pure” might be a better word.

Then all atheists who do not believe in impossible things and exhibit intelligence and human compassion are ideal atheists. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.

Lois

I’m not sure if human compassion should be a factor. My image of an ideal atheist would be an atheist from birth who has had minimal exposure to religious culture (maybe raised in the Soviet Union). We could collect those people into a sample and try to find common behaviors that contrast with behaviors of ideal Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/... Then we could use those behaviors as indicators of atheism.

Probably using the word “ideal” is confusing. “Pure” might be a better word.

I don’t know. Isn’t everyone’s lack of belief in a deity pure? I don’t think atheism has qualifiers. You are either an atheist or you’re not. What else is there?

In my own case I am both an atheist and a Christian and many other things. I’m not undecided; I’m multiple different people occupying the same brain and body. Actually I tried to explain this idea on another forum, and I was surprised that nobody seemed to agree. But I think everybody is really this way a little, and they don’t realize it.

Maybe a computer analogy would help. A person grows up in a Christian household so they have a Christian OS, Christian device drivers, Christian applications, and hard disk full of Christian files. Now the dominant application is replaced by an atheist version, but the OS, device drivers, and files are still Christian versions. A pure atheist is the computer that has never had anything except atheism installed and has had minimal contact with non-atheist computers.

From a top-down view the beliefs inside the mind are not important. We should treat the mind as a black box and only look at the behavior of that ideal believer versus other types of ideal believers. In other words we don’t care what the atheist claims to believe or not believe.

It sounds like you want to study some effects based on self-reported belief categories. I don’t see any other way to do what you want, because what may be an “ideal Taoist” or any other ideal belief system changes over time.

From a top-down view the beliefs inside the mind are not important. We should treat the mind as a black box and only look at the behavior of that ideal believer versus other types of ideal believers. In other words we don’t care what the atheist claims to believe or not believe.

It sounds like you want to study some effects based on self-reported belief categories. I don’t see any other way to do what you want, because what may be an “ideal Taoist” or any other ideal belief system changes over time.

Yes, I think that’s a good summary. I’m curious how these beliefs like atheism, Christianity, etc. affect behavior. I have a suspicion that belief is not a significant factor in practical behavior and moral choices in most cases.