At 08:02 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
> You don't buy it, because it goes against your worldview. But the>fact is that Hungarian public morality is very, very low. You have no idea>how low.
I know it's impossible to get accurate statistics on public morality but how
low is 'very low'? And, you know, if it's possible that I see what I see
because of my worldview, is it not possible that you see what you see
because of yours?
>It is not their fault. It is the fault of history in the last fifty>years.
And if Hungarians make no progress in the next fifty years then they will be
able to blame the coming fifty years. What does this mean? How can you
blame history?
>When everything belongs to everybody, nothing belongs to anybody. So,>one can steal to one's heart's content.
Just a few theoretical points. How can one steal something that doesn't
belong to anybody? How can one steal from oneself? And, was there a lot of
metaphysical theft during the communist years in Hungary?
>And they did. Add to this that the>bureaucracy was such (and still is) that honestly practically nothing is>achievable. You have to lie. And they do. And when it comes to income tax,>they are especially hate giving money to the state.
But didn't they want this kind of a state in 1989? Hungarians clearly
rejected the former state, didn't they?
>They only like getting>it. I am going to repeat it again, Joe: 500,000 people are on disability>payments in Hungary out of the working force of about 4 million!! Do you>honestly think that they are all disabled?
No I don't. However, I'd like to know how many of that 500,000, who are not
disabled, active in the thriving black market? I'd bet you it's a lot. And
if you cut them off from disability benefits you just might be nipping many
entrepreneurs in the bud. I only raise this possibility because when you
talk about low public morality I always think about business ethics. The
two go hand in hand.
> Corruption in general, from top to bottom, is extremely widespread.>Number of crimes, violent and otherwise, are also extremely high. All in>all, the situation is pretty grim. And to pretend otherwise would be>foolish.
But you do that every time someone is critical of the changes in Hungary.
<snip>
> Moreover, knowing your political views you would give away the last>pots and pans of the country to some of the "downtrodden" of the world,>desering or not.
Aw-shucks. I have other faults, too, you know.
>But you know that people who must provide might not like>the idea of providing for every no-good, including wife beaters, alcoholics,>drug addicts, burglers, rapists, and so on and so forth. There is a limit to>honest working people's patience.
And your other contention is that there are no honest working people any
more. Which is it? And bringing "every no-good, including wife beaters,
alcoholics, drug addicts, burglers, rapists, and so on and so forth", into
this equation is a cheap shot. And you know it. It's deliberately misleading.
> And now you can go and tell that Eva Balogh is a heartles creature.
No. That's your job. Mind you, if you paid well, and in cash, I'd consider
doing it.
Joe Szalai
Want of money and the distress of a thief can never be alleged as the cause
of his thieving, for many honest people endure greater hardships with
fortitude. We must therefore seek the cause elsewhere than in want of money,
for that is the miser's passion, not the thief's.
-- William Blake

At 09:50 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Kristof wrote:
<snip>
>There's no pleasing some people. Let your vaunted Canadian Mounties drag>them into the frozen north and shoot them, then.
Up yours!
>Or fine them (which was my original suggestion) and use the money to buy>some actual medical equipment. But the problem is yours, not ours, and you>wouldn't have it if your medical system was similar to ours. You wouldn't>have it if your medical system was similar to Mexico's, either. Down here>we treat you if you want to be treated (spare me the money diatribe, okay?>there are more free hospitals in Kansas than in Ontario), not if you happen>to be the right nationality.
Like Miklos Hoffmann said, your arguments promote far, extreme left points
of view. Not that you'd understand.
>In fact, here's an even better idea. Let the Americans come, and charge>them the going rate for the services. You need the money, and we'll stop>coming when the costs are equal. Watch and see. Or weren't you looking
for >a real solution?
I was just pulling your leg.
>Why tax for it, then? Why compel people to pay, even if they don't use the>system? Everyone was equal in Hungary, too. This is what you want? Health>care is a commodity, as is toilet paper. Or do you have socialized>bathrooms, too? Why not? Groceries are a basic human right, too, aren't>they? Why not socialized supermarkets? And gas stations! There's no end>to this, and no way out of it, either.
It's like hell. Only worse!
>Health care costs money. Therefore someone has to pay for it. In your>country, everyone pays and some benefit. In mine, nobody pays unless they>benefit. I wish the costs were more reflective of the actual market, which>would cut the cost dramatically. Maybe someday.
Health care is not a commodity. Society is like family and I would no more
deny a stranger medical care than I would for a member of my family. You
prefer a different system.
<snip>
>Should I snip that first paragraph and send it to Reuters? You must be the>last Canadian that really believes you have something to do with what the>government decides. Down here we abandoned that illusion long ago.
And the number of Americans who don't vote prove that. That's your problem.
How do you wish to be governed?
<snip>
>I am not a big fan of Democracy (and you aren't, either), but I love>Republicanism.
Where on earth do you get the idea that I don't support democracy? Perhaps
you don't, but I do.
>I just reject the notion that America is a true Republic.> Canada is not, either. Power is not really in the hands of the people,>whatever delusions we permit ourselves, and until it is, we will keep having>these pointless discussons, as if we had power to actully effect change on>trillion-dollar bloated bureaucracies. That's one of the reasons Hungary>fascinates me so much -- it's small enough that something real might be>accomplished there.
You're a right-wing anarchist. Your Republicanism has nothing to offer
Hungary. And I suspect that when you talk about 'power in the hands of the
people', you're really talking about power in your hands. And screw
everyone else who doesn't agree with you, right? Thanks, but I'm not
interested in your ideas.
>>We can improve our medicare by extending coverage to prescription drugs,>>dental work, and eye care. They are vital to good health.>>You can improve it by requiring everyone to drive Volvos, too. Ever think>of that? Or by banning red meat. And mandating exercise. And>reconstructing gene patterns. What next, Joe? Socialized health clubs?
Yes, and socialized dildos too, so that even you can enjoy life once in a while
.
>What is it about people that you cannot just leave them alone and let them>take care of themselves and each other in peace? They'll do it, you know,>if you let them.
Yeah, history is full of people taking care of each other.
Joe Szalai

wrote:
>Nobody has a right to health care. Sorry, I know I just opened a nasty>topic, no doubt I'll be defending that statement for weeks. I do not believe>basic human rights extends to arthroscopic surgery. I do believe in a basic>human need for care, and I believe that organizations should exist that fill>this need. And oddly enough, they do.
It's fine, you can believe whatever you want. I am not going into
'Yes, No' arguement. I have only one question. How do you (or anyone)
decide that someone has right to something or not? What if I say nobody
has a right to anything? Why are such views worse (or better) than yours?
J.Zs

Hi Sam,
welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.
Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.
I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.
J.Zs

<Hi Sam,
<welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.
<Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.
<I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.
<J.Zs
Janos, how can you ask such simple questions? South Serbs are
the inhabitants of Chrna Gora!
Maybe, Sam has a more sophisticated answer...
Miklos

Hi!
Everybody welcome to the Canada list. :-)( Don4t misunderstand me, I
love Canada (, too). )
<Joe - At 11:13 PM 27/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>No, it doesn't. We, the people elect our governments, and tell them in no>uncertain terms, that we want socialized medicine. It's about the only>thing most Canadian agree upon. And, as a people, we can democratically>decide what we want, and how much we are willing to pay for it. Do you have>a problem with that?
[..]
<Kakapupu Joe ... primarily referring that is, to the fact that I was,
<ready for bed after having sent in my last post ... and downloaded also.
<Here you are! Oh well, sleep can wait! Yes, I do have a problem with that
<statement, and forgive my budding in too.
<Secondary kakapupu .... My problem lies between your perceived socialized
<medical benefit, and the effective amount of hidden/ignored/$'s it's really
<costing you/us to get it. In addition, my problem lies with; whenever did
<any of us, let alone you or I for that matter, were given an opportunity
<to agree on the amount we're willing to pay? .... Speaking for myself (no
<dirty comeback either ha?) No one ever asked! It came as the "400lb
<gorilla surprise" to me; as I am sure did to many of the rest of us. No!
<Under no circumstance, did I ever, agree to pay the amount I do; nor did
<anyone ever consult me either. Nor, do I now, or did I ever have a choice
<in the end.
<"And, as a people, we can democratically decide what we want, and how much
<we are willing to pay for it. "
<Cut & pasted from your above words.... Would you plllleeeeaaaassssseeeee?
<expound on this?
>After all, it's no different from an individual>decision except that we pool our resources and manage to get a better deal>than an individual would. Simple economics will tell you that 30 million>people acting together can strike a better deal than one individual. Oh, I>know there are individuals who can do better than a large group, because>they're well off financially, but why promote anti-social behaviour?
<Geez Joe.... $($)*%)$*)*#$)(*#$))#% (got the picture yet)? If, 30 million
<people in Canada, would have the "b...."'s to ever stand up to anything at
<all, Mulrooney would never have gotten away with successfully implementing
<the GST in the first place ... (let's face it, over 60% of poles dictated
<to the contrary of implementation) let alone his latest lawsuit against
<the Canadian Government! Reality check? We are, 30 mil complacent
<(plainly, no balls, period). Not to exclude those individuals, whom you
<deem to be able to do better than a large group .... And ... lest we get
<into a major ugly dispute - for which I have not time for at this moment;
<I've cut the inticing stuff. However ... you say:
>We can improve our medicare by extending coverage to prescription drugs,>dental work, and eye care. They are vital to good health.
[...]
<Right you are .... for an additional approximated $7000.00/year, you, I, or
<anyone has total access to such+. With any luck the employer at hand will
<co share the cost. It is after all, exactly what we got, since "as
<people, we democratically decided on what we wanted, and how much we were
<willing to pay for it."
<Forgive me .... but geezzz... when the blood doesth boil?....
<Best to all, Aniko
Geez, children, love your government(s). Else, nobody else will...:-)

At 02:46 PM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
>Surely there seems to be an undue concern about taxing income whereas a>simpler and fairer method might be to tax expenditure.>>Regards>Dines
<It's easier to avoid paying taxes when buying a service or product than it
<is when income is taxed.
What a happy land! Not around here! Here - e.g. in Germany, but in other
countries with V.A.T., as well, it is the other way around. The trouble
is, our governments do tax both expenditure and income ( and property ).
< Also, how would you make taxing expenditure
<progressive, as in "progressive tax"?
Luxury taxes would go in that direction...
Miklos

Stephen L. Szabolcsy wrote :
< Hello Fellow Hungarians,<
< This is my first attempt to have a say in this domain.
< As a former 56-er,
Welcome to the list, buddy...
<I look forward with great anticipation to the date when
<Hungary will become a member of NATO and the EC.
< Back, in 57, when I came to Canada, I thought that shortly other
<countries will also rise up against the Russian imperialism. As the years
<passed, this hope has faded. After the spring of Prague in 68, I gave up
<hope entirely, that I will live as long as Hungary will get rid of the
<Russians.
< Life was, however, good to me. After two heart attacks, an open heart
<surgery
<extended my life expectancy, so I survived to the day the Russians left
<Hungary.
<Now, I enjoy reading the papers, talking again about Central Europe, instead o
f
<Eastern Europe, about Hungary being second after Bahamas in tourists per
<capita,
<about Hungary being first in the rise of stock exchange averages, the
<highest capital inflow outside the former western world and so on, and so on.
< I cannot second-guess the present Hungarian government's informations and
<choices for actions within the given elbow room, but I trust it does what it
<can
<to assure law and order, peace and security for the country.
Hmmm. Hmmm. But, still I hope....
< Yes, the British gave away Czechoslovakia to the Germans in Munich. Yes, th
e
<Americans gave away Hungary to the Russians in Yalta. Yes, these countries
<were not theirs to give away, and yes, they could do so again
Hear...:-(
<if they wished, despite NATO and EC memberships.
:-(
< But not so easily.
THIS IS THE POINT!
Miklos

wrote:
>Nobody has a right to health care. Sorry, I know I just opened a nasty>topic, no doubt I'll be defending that statement for weeks. I do not believe>basic human rights extends to arthroscopic surgery. I do believe in a basic>human need for care, and I believe that organizations should exist that fill>this need. And oddly enough, they do.
<It's fine, you can believe whatever you want. I am not going into
<'Yes, No' arguement. I have only one question. How do you (or anyone)
<decide that someone has right to something or not? What if I say nobody
<has a right to anything? Why are such views worse (or better) than yours?
Not only "HOW?" but based on WHAT LEGITIMATION?
Or just by being right, possesing the TRUTH? ( I am sarcastic : you4d be
in interesting company, including the the guy from Braunau or Joe Djugaswilli
( or how do you transscribe that in English? ) and many others in history.
Miklos

At 09:50 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Kristof in, Re: The Cost of NATO expansion wrote:
<snip>
>What? Are you seriously suggesting that conflict is the result of having a>military?
It's really difficult to have a war without an army. Trust me.
>Weren't you just saying something about "we're a democratic people>and can vote for what we want"? I guess you like conflict, then. It's>okay, Joe. Most people do. That's why we have conflict.
You seem to have a problem understanding anything I say. Perhaps you need
some remedial help.
<snip>
>I sit on the executive board of a charitable organization.
I can think of something else you can sit on. And I hope your charitable
organization has an active 'ladies auxiliary'. Just for balance, you know.
>I give away over 15% of my annual income. I have another 20% or so
forcibly >removed from me by the government.
If you make $100,000 you're still left with $65,000. That's still more than
double what I earn in a year. If you make much less than a hundred thousand
dollars and you're still willing to "give away over 15%" of your annual
income then you're either very generous or somewhat foolish. And if the tax
system in the United States is similar to Canada's, then you actually
receive a tax break for your charitable donations. I think you're trying to
solicit sympathy for your Republican views by crying alligator tears.
>I not only belive that others will be there for me when I>need it, I know they will be, as I spend about half my time, with no>compensation, being there for them.
No compensation, eh? No tax breaks for your charitable donation? No free
parking? No free coffee? Not even the occasional free pizza night?
Half your time would be 12 hours a day. Sleep would take another 8 hours.
That would leave you with 4 hours to eat, commute to work, work, wash, do
housework, and what-have-you. And you still have time to engage in debates
on this newsgroup. How do you do it? And, more importantly, is this your
suggestion for Hungarians?
Are you sure you're not involved with a cult? Republicanism is a cult too,
you know.
>I oppose government programs because when I give money directly to the>needy, 100% goes where it will do good.
How do you know? Where is the empirical evidence that there are less needy
in America because of your efforts? And the only way you can give directly
to the needy is to give money to panhandlers. And you give over 15% of your
income to them? I just hope you don't tell them what to do with it because,
after all, they, and not you or your government, know better how to spend it.
> Whereas when I fork over the money to Washington, only 60% of it goes>anywhere, and a large chunk goes to things I think are wrong and have never>done any good at all. This is charity? This is compassion? I think the>insecurity is on your side, Joe. You don't believe anyone cares if you live>or die, so you had better force them to give up their money in the hope that>Ottawa will condescend to give some back to you.
You really do hate government, don't you? Are you involved with one of
those militia groups too?
>It's the nature of the beast, Joe. Government must keep a slice of my money>to pay for overhead, staff, etc., while I can get the same money to the>actual poor with volunteers and no overhead at all.
And what do you think happens to all that money that's spent on overhead,
staff, etc.? Is it eaten? No. It's put back into the economy. You know,
what goes around, comes around. For some bizarre reason, you, and others
with similar views, seem to think that any money the government collects,
and then spends, is wasted -- that it's somehow swallowed by a big black
hole, never to be seen again. Well, that's not what happens. That money is
still circulated in the economy. But I don't think you'll ever grasp that.
You can only think of 'me' and 'mine'.
>The ivory tower of benevolent Government is a long way from my
neighborhood. > But I live here.
Well, you know, if you feel hard done by your government, by being forced to
pay too much tax, forced to obey speed limits on highways, and other
unmentionable evils, you could always leave. Haiti is not nearly as
regulated as America. Why don't you move your family there? Also, I'm sure
they could use your charitable expertise.
> It's not the intent I object to; it's the execution. We do it better than>they do.
That's because you're human and people who work in the public sector aren't.
Joe Szalai
The Republicans have a "me too" candidate running on a "yes but" platform,
advised by a "has been" staff.
-- Adlai Stevenson

At 09:01 PM 3/1/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 02:40 PM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:>>>Hello!>>There is a Hungarian saying "minden szentnek maga felé hajlik a keze.">There >are rules and laws, whether dealing with tax or with disability and>it is >the job of the legislators to draw up the laws in a fair way but>without >loopholes "big enough to drive a train through". It is up to the>courts then >to interpret those laws. As far as the individual is concerned>we have to >live within the laws but there is no reason why we should not>take advantage >of any loopholes or uncertainties in the drafting of the laws.>>I agree with you, Denes. However, Eva Balogh was implying something quite>different.
Yes, I was implying something else. That an awful lot of people get
disability who are not disabled. That's exactly what I meant. Joe, your
problem here is twofold: (1) you don't really know the Hungarian situation
and (2) because of ideological bend you jump to the side of whom you
consider downtrodden.
I, on the other hand, read the Hungarian press assiduously. And I
read not only news items, but feature stories as well. The problem of
500,000 people on disability is a serious one from the point of view of the
budget. And you, Joe, can go on and on and on about all those honest people
it is hard to get around the fact that while only about 3.5 million people
are employed, there are 730,000 who are on disability. As Gyula Horn,
socialist prime minister, said: this must stop because otherwise we will
considered a nation of cripples.
I do understand the motivation: people are fearful that their jobs
might disappear and they are still too young to retire. Therefore, they try
to get disability--which is obviously rather easy to get either because of
the laxity of guidelines or because of dishonest doctors--which even legally
allows them to be employed part-time. Or they actually work full time in the
black economy. Thus their disability payments are just a bit of extra and an
insurance policy.
However, just because I understand the cause I don't have to applaud
the practice because the gainfully employed portion of society is overtaxed
something fierce. The following statistics might help in understanding the
situation. There are 3,571,200 people who are gainfully employed.
1,895,000,000 people are on pension. 723,900,000 people are on disability.
Therefore, 3,571,200 people pay for the pensions and disability payments of
2,619,800 people. Add to these figures 451,200 people who receive
unemployment compensation. Thus, the number of gainfully employed are
practically the same who are not but who are receiving pensions, disability,
or temporary unemploment benefits. In addition consider some of the
entitlements: 1,447,000 families receive family allowance, involving
2,350,700 children for the tune of 102,950,000 billion forints. And let's
not forget about the 254,600 women who are on paid maternity leave (lasting
three years). This last figure comes from 1994 and since then there are new
rules and regulations concerning mothernity leaves.
You cannot have a thriving economic life with such demographics.
Because you cannot touch the pensions there isn't much "give." Therefore,
the government is trying to have more stringent regulations concerning
disability and introduced some measures which would make dishonest doctors'
job more difficult. At the same time the government is trying to save money
on education, on research, on a bloated and inefficient medical structure
(148 hospitals and for every doctor only 128 patients as opposed to the
United States where the ratio is 1:540). Surely, the wine growers' lax
attitude toward taxes doesn't help thesituation because through them a huge
grey economy is also thriving. Let's assume that a farmer hires someone to
plow his land with a tractor. Because this farmer doesn't have to itemize
the tractor owner can simply pocket the money he receives from the
transaction which he doesn't have to report. The same is true when the
farmer buys seeds or fertilizer. And one can go on and on. Most of their
financial transaction is what the Hungarians call "zsebbol zsebbe," from
pocket to pocket and nobody is the wiser.
Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,
On the 40th anniversary of the Camp Kilmer operation, the Pentagon is holding
a formal commemoration ceremony in Washington, where they will show the film
"Cry Hungary", which was prepared by BBC for the 40th anniversary of the
Hungarian revolution and shown at 9PM on October 22, 1996. (Because of the
lawsuit in the Hague, I will not be there.)
If you want to see the film, or want to receive an invitation from the
Pentagon for the ceremonies, please contact Istvan Gereben at:
Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,
On the 40th anniversary of the Camp Kilmer operation, the Pentagon is holding
a formal commemoration ceremony in Washington, where they will show the film
"Cry Hungary", which was prepared by BBC for the 40th anniversary of the
Hungarian revolution and shown at 9PM on October 22, 1996. (Because of the
lawsuit in the Hague, I will not be there.)
If you want to see the film, or want to receive an invitation from the
Pentagon for the ceremonies, please contact Istvan Gereben at:
Best regards: Bela Liptak

At 02:56 AM 3/2/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>Hi Sam,>>welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.>Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.>I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.>>J.Zs
Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately. Sam didn't say
*South Serbs.* I think he said South Slavs.
Eva

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 12:02:26 -0500
Subject: "Cry Hungary" in the Pentagon
On the 40th anniversary of the Camp Kilmer operation, the Pentagon is holding
a formal commemoration ceremony in Washington, where they will show the film
"Cry Hungary", which was prepared by BBC for the 40th anniversary of the
Hungarian revolution and shown at 9PM on October 22, 1996. (Because of the
lawsuit in the Hague, I will not be there.)
If you want to see the film, or want to receive an invitation from the
Pentagon for the ceremonies, please contact Istvan Gereben at:
Best regards: Bela Liptak

At 11:32 PM 3/1/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>I know it's impossible to get accurate statistics on public morality but how>low is 'very low'? And, you know, if it's possible that I see what I see>because of my worldview, is it not possible that you see what you see>because of yours?
Well, I guess it is fairly low when you consider that one third of
the economy is black/grey. So-called "respectable" people are capable to
quote two numbers for you: one if you insist on receipt and one, much lower
of course, if you don't.
>>>It is not their fault. It is the fault of history in the last fifty>>years.>>And if Hungarians make no progress in the next fifty years then they will be>able to blame the coming fifty years. What does this mean? How can you>blame history?
I am not blaming "history" per se, I am blaming a system which was
conducive to cheating and stealing because everywhere around you were lies
and the whole system could operate only with the help of semi- or completely
illegal activities.
>>When everything belongs to everybody, nothing belongs to anybody. So,>>one can steal to one's heart's content.>>Just a few theoretical points. How can one steal something that doesn't>belong to anybody? How can one steal from oneself? And, was there a lot of>metaphysical theft during the communist years in Hungary?
Don't play dumb, Joe, it is not becoming. Most property belonged to
the state. Public property theoretically belongs to all inhabitants of a
country but for most people it is very hard to think in those terms. Also,
it was an economy of scarcity and therefore one had to live with constant
shortages. Just to give you one example. During one of my trips to Hungary
in the late 1960s the cap on my gas tank was stolen. I went all over
creation and I couldn't find a gas cap. Eventually, I employed a stop-gap
measure: a large cork with a rag around it!!! Looked lovely!!! One day I saw
an identical Renault standing on the street and believe me I needed all my
self-restraint not to lift its gas cap! Moreover, I suddenly realized why
someone stole mine. He/she was desperate! Under these circumstances, bit by
bit, public morals declined. Plus eventually there was total lack of respect
for the state. The spokemen for the state and the party promised all sorts
of things which were not delivered. They lost all credibility. Therefore,
there was and still is incredible reluctance to contribute to the state's
treasury. People are also very suspicious of the politicians. They are sure
that they are all thieves. And big thieves! So, why can't the little people
be little thieves? It's only fair!--this is how the argument goes.
>>And they did. Add to this that the>>bureaucracy was such (and still is) that honestly practically nothing is>>achievable. You have to lie. And they do. And when it comes to income tax,>>they are especially hate giving money to the state.>>But didn't they want this kind of a state in 1989? Hungarians clearly>rejected the former state, didn't they?
They rejected it because their living standards started to sag.
Because the system was clearly dying and there was an opportunity to change
it for something which they were sure was going to be better. Democracy and
market economy. They used to travel to Austria or Germany and people looked
very prosperous there. They were sure that prosperity will come very, very
soon. Instead of prosperity, living standards further deteriorated because
of the economic dislocations of the changeover and because of the
disappearance of the eastern market where shoddy products could be sold.
They became disillusioned with the market economy because it didn't produce
immediately results. As far as democracy is concerned they have no
experience with it and are somewhat bewildered by it.
>>They only like getting>>it. I am going to repeat it again, Joe: 500,000 people are on disability>>payments in Hungary out of the working force of about 4 million!! Do you>>honestly think that they are all disabled?>>No I don't. However, I'd like to know how many of that 500,000, who are not>disabled, active in the thriving black market? I'd bet you it's a lot.
As it turned out I underestimated the numbers. It is over 700,000 as
you can see from my other note. And yes, most of them are merrily working.
There are degrees of disability and with a certain percentage point you can
even work legally. But not too many people opt for this because on your
legally received income you still have to pay income tax and social
security/medical insurance. Most of them therefore work illegally.
>And>if you cut them off from disability benefits you just might be nipping many>entrepreneurs in the bud.
Budding entrepreneurs are not on disability. "Fusimunkasok" are on
disability.
>I only raise this possibility because when you>talk about low public morality I always think about business ethics. The>two go hand in hand.
In your crazy mind. If the world went the way you wanted to go we
could all lie down in the gutter and die because after all business activity
is immoral.
>> Corruption in general, from top to bottom, is extremely widespread.>>Number of crimes, violent and otherwise, are also extremely high. All in>>all, the situation is pretty grim. And to pretend otherwise would be>>foolish.>>But you do that every time someone is critical of the changes in Hungary.
It is pretty hard to argue that there is no corruption in Hungary.
Corruption today is much greater than before. First of all, given a
democratic society the controls are not as stringent as they were during
existing socialism. Second, the laws are still ill defined or nonexistent.
Third, the opportunities are greater. More money is at stake. Fourth, the
flood gates opened and some people misinterpreted freedom from harrassment
as freedom to kill or steal. The police are unable to handle economic crimes
(they are not accustomed to this kind of criminal activity). Corruption got
to the police force as well. Policemen are paid off to get rid of evidence,
for example. Guns disappear from police headquarters. Even ordinary traffic
cops fine people and don't give them receipts. And one could go on and on.
Here are a few statistics on crime. In 1965 there were 121,961 offenses and
the ratio of discovery was 80.4 percent. By 1989 the number of offenses
doubled to 225,393 but the ratio of discovery plumetted to 57,1 percent. In
1994, the number of offenses were 389,451 but the ratio of discovery is as
low as 42,6 percent! I don't have comparative statistics on murders but in
1994 there were 313 in addition to 34 cases of manslaughter. In addition,
there were 8,148 serious bodily injuries, and 2,613 not so serious ones;
214,497 cases of larceny, 4,587 cases of embezzlement, 26,296 cases of
fraud; 11,311 cases of robbery, 4,191 cases of fencing stolen goods, and
5,252 cases of auto theft. And one more piece of news which came out lately:
78 percent of the people would like to reintroduce the death penalty!!
Needless to say that I am against it and it will most likely never be
reintroduced as long Hungary would like to be part of the European Union. No
member nation can have the death penalty on the books.
And one more thing about violence in general. I think that the high
number of alcoholics is one of the problems. Here is an example. Not long
time ago three guys ordered take-home pizza. The pizza was delivered and was
found wanting. The three guys complained rather abusively over the phone.
The manager, who wanted to please his customers, himself delivered an
entirely new pizza to the three guys. The three guys didn't like this pizza
either and they almost killed him. They attacked him with a knife. Two weeks
ago he was still in critical condition in the hospital. The only thing I can
think hearing about cases like this that the three guys were most likely
drunk out of their minds.
>>But you know that people who must provide might not like>>the idea of providing for every no-good, including wife beaters, alcoholics,>>drug addicts, burglers, rapists, and so on and so forth. There is a limit to>>honest working people's patience.>>And your other contention is that there are no honest working people any>more. Which is it?
C'mon, Joseph, who said that there is no honest people!! Many and
many. Unfortunately a lot of people are not honest and the sad thing is that
they don't even consider some of their actions dishonest anymore. Just part
of life. Like the nice churchgoer Christian Democratic voter who, I am sure,
otherwise lives an exemplary life. But making a little wine on the side is
no longer considered to be a big deal.
Eva Balogh

PLEASE FOLLOW THIS EXAMPLE IN YOUR OWN AREAS, BUT PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE:
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: (joseph neu)
Reply-to:
To:
CC: (neu2),
Date: 97-03-02 14:04:24 EST
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------488542E54144
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Editor,
Toronto Daily Star
On reviewing the attached E-Mail it has occurred to me that the issue on
hand is not limited to a small region on this globe. There are
potential ramifications to every country including Canada no matter what
the outcome of the decision reached by the International Court of
Justice.
Surely, you agree that this topic is worth while examining and reporting
on by your paper.
The issues and concerns have been well identified by professor Bela
Liptak and needs no commentary on my part.
Best regards,
Joseph C. Neu, CGA
just another reader,
--------------488542E54144
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Content-Disposition: inline
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for >; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:22:44 -0500 (EST)
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Received: (from )
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dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3)
id smae09132; Fri Feb 28 12:22:14 1997
To:
Subject: Will the Blue Danube still be Blue after the International Court
meets in The Hague???!!!
To all my friends, and friends of all just issues.
How would you feel, if as an American you would read in the paper, that they
will reroute the great American river, the Mississippi -- or the Missouri --
so that the Northern part of the river would flow in Canada?
While this has not happened, something very similar may happen to the Blue
Danube in Hungary.
Please read on for clarification and information on this issue, and act
quickly according to your conscience and convictions.
Below I have copied the urgent CALL FOR ACTION I just received. All political
action and lobbying effort is of help, so writing to your Senators and
Congressmen in addition to Vice President Al Gore and Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright, and/or the new President of the International Court:
Stephen Schwebel will be helpful. Usually personalized mail with your own
wording has more effect, wether it is sent E-Mail or regular mail. Either
way, please act right away.
(Distributed by: Leslie T Eloed / Elôd László ; Árpád Internet Publishing;
P.O. Box 506, Pasadena, Ca. 91102 FAX & TEL 818 / 962-0124 & 818 / 962-1423
E-Mail: or )
Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:56:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: HL-Action: write GORE and
ALBRIGHT
To: Sender:
Reply-To:
****************** CALL FOR ACTION **************** Priority: URGENT
Background:
The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague will start on
March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and
Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak territory.
It is essential that we gain publicity to the lawsuit and the support of
world public opinion. Especially the support of American politicians such as
Vice President AL GORE and Secretary of State, MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, would mean
a lot for our matter.
For more information visit: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
What to do:
Please help to convince Vice President Al Gore and Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright to make a statement in favor for the Danube. Feel free to
use the attached form letters
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT GORE AND ALBRIGHT HAS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN THEIR
MAILBOXES.
What THEY should hear from their assistant is that the World is worrying
about the Danube.
Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action. Send it to at
least 5 of your friends. PLEASE ACT!!
e-mail address of Al Gore:
e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:
Please complete the following letters with your:
signature
printed name and address
> -----------------------------------------------------------
(date)
The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
E-Mail:
Dear Mr. Vice President,
On the 21-st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about your
concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, mankind is approaching an important
precedent: On the 3-rd of March, 1997 the International Court of Justice will
start the first international environmental lawsuit in The Hague.
The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region: the Szigetkoz. This name, loosely translated,
means: The region of a thousand islands, yet today there is not a single
island left there, because the water is gone. Still, the implications of this
case go beyond the future of just one river or just the 400 endangered
species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question: Do national governments have the right to do as
they please with our ecosystems, or does mankind as a whole have a right to
protect the rich natural treasures, which belong to all of us?
Mr. Vice President, in 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui has accepted. A Compromise Plan was also submitted to the Court,
which would guarantee the restoration of the ancient Szigetkoz wetlands,
together with fulfilling the water- supply, shipping and energy needs of the
region. For details of this plan and for other aspects of the lawsuit, please
ask Bela Liptak or visit the web-site at: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
Dear Mr. Gore. It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the attention it deserves by the media. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details. A statement by you, can guarantee that attention. Please make that
statement.
Respectfully yours,
> -----------------------------------------------------------
(date)
The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail: )
RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague
Dear Madame Secretary:
Please accept my congratulations on your well deserved appointment, which to
us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray of hope. We hope
for even greater American understanding and compassion for the people of
Central Europe, for their progress and stability.
Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone for
American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is beginning
next week in the Hague. This new tone would be consistent with the US policy
of expanding Western structures to Central and Eastern Europe, and to engage
the US more actively in helping resolve emerging inter-country conflicts in
the Region by (I) urging your West European partners to assist more
pro-actively; and (ii) calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to
accept the Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the future.
Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent with the
present US policy based on a global approach to environmental issues and on
seeking to mobilize all relevant political (multilateral, international,
non-governmental and civic society) forces to assist in avoiding
environmental catastrophes caused by bilateral agreements that had been drawn
up by non-representative governments under a regional policy framework which
was imposed by Moscow.
Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice, but would
be fulfilling an American obligation by so doing. This is, because it was the
Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and Hungary
and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the guarantors of the
integrity of the two nation's territories. The Treaty also stated that the
two nations DO NOT have the right to make changes, unless the Great Powers
first approve of the change. Yet in 1977, under Soviet direction, the two
nations signed a contract to move the Danube, previously their border river,
into an artificial canal on Slovak territory. For so doing, they did not ask,
nor did they receive the approval of the Great Powers.
Madame Secretary. The International Court of Justice must be advised that
the Moscow initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID, because it
is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the legal obligation
and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill her role as a guarantor of
the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more importantly, it is in the interest of the
United States to make sure that the Danube is returned into its riverbed and
thereby the stability of the region is maintained.
Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.
Respectfully yours,
> -----------------------------------------------------------
******************************************************************************
*********************
****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************
Priority:
Normal
Background:
The International Court of Justice has elected a new President, Stephen
Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in America. Since
the new President probably does not know the details about the upcoming
Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform him. It is likely that
the new President would be receptive to a letter campaign.
We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise Plan proposed
by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This plan ensures the
survival of the Danube Wetlands.
What to do:
Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court, Stephen
Schwebel. Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that is, to consider
the Compromise Plan. Feel free to use the sample letter below.
Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please do not hesitate to
send him a fax. EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO
JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
Fax number: ++31-70-3649-928
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>
The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928
Dear Mr. President:
Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new President of the
International Court of Justice. Your professional background is sure to
further increase the reputation of the Court.
This month, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on an
environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind. In ruling on the future
of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia, you and your
fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers, forests, and oceans
are not the sole properties of nations, that nations do not have the right to
destroy unique ecosystems.
The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in groundwater
level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This region, which was
the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed because the lung of the
river (the wetland region) has been cut out. Shipping on the Danube has
suffered because of flimsy construction and because the dam is not designed
to handle ice. Most importantly, the population of the region is in physical
danger and two-thirds of the populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have
already fled.
The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to the
Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural riverbed. I
hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of the Szigetkoz by
giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as it makes its historic
ruling.
Respectfully,
<name, title, address>
--------------488542E54144--

PLEASE FOLLOW THIS EXAMPLE IN YOUR OWN AREAS, BUT PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE:
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: (joseph neu)
Reply-to:
To:
CC: (neu2),
Date: 97-03-02 14:04:24 EST
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------488542E54144
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Editor,
Toronto Daily Star
On reviewing the attached E-Mail it has occurred to me that the issue on
hand is not limited to a small region on this globe. There are
potential ramifications to every country including Canada no matter what
the outcome of the decision reached by the International Court of
Justice.
Surely, you agree that this topic is worth while examining and reporting
on by your paper.
The issues and concerns have been well identified by professor Bela
Liptak and needs no commentary on my part.
Best regards,
Joseph C. Neu, CGA
just another reader,
--------------488542E54144
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Return-Path: >
Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com(really [206.214.98.3]) by
websvr.yesic.com
via smail with esmtp
id >
for >; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:22:44 -0500 (EST)
(Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #5 built 1997-Feb-18)
Received: (from )
by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4)
id MAA13949 for >; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:22:23 -0
6
00
(CST)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:22:23 -0600 (CST)
From:
Message-Id: >
Received: from pas-ca10-19.ix.netcom.com(204.31.230.147) by
dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3)
id smae09132; Fri Feb 28 12:22:14 1997
To:
Subject: Will the Blue Danube still be Blue after the International Court
meets in The Hague???!!!
To all my friends, and friends of all just issues.
How would you feel, if as an American you would read in the paper, that they
will reroute the great American river, the Mississippi -- or the Missouri --
so that the Northern part of the river would flow in Canada?
While this has not happened, something very similar may happen to the Blue
Danube in Hungary.
Please read on for clarification and information on this issue, and act
quickly according to your conscience and convictions.
Below I have copied the urgent CALL FOR ACTION I just received. All political
action and lobbying effort is of help, so writing to your Senators and
Congressmen in addition to Vice President Al Gore and Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright, and/or the new President of the International Court:
Stephen Schwebel will be helpful. Usually personalized mail with your own
wording has more effect, wether it is sent E-Mail or regular mail. Either
way, please act right away.
(Distributed by: Leslie T Eloed / Elôd László ; Árpád Internet Publishing;
P.O. Box 506, Pasadena, Ca. 91102 FAX & TEL 818 / 962-0124 & 818 / 962-1423
E-Mail: or )
Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:56:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: HL-Action: write GORE and
ALBRIGHT
To: Sender:
Reply-To:
****************** CALL FOR ACTION **************** Priority: URGENT
Background:
The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague will start on
March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and
Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak territory.
It is essential that we gain publicity to the lawsuit and the support of
world public opinion. Especially the support of American politicians such as
Vice President AL GORE and Secretary of State, MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, would mean
a lot for our matter.
For more information visit: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
What to do:
Please help to convince Vice President Al Gore and Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright to make a statement in favor for the Danube. Feel free to
use the attached form letters
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT GORE AND ALBRIGHT HAS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN THEIR
MAILBOXES.
What THEY should hear from their assistant is that the World is worrying
about the Danube.
Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action. Send it to at
least 5 of your friends. PLEASE ACT!!
e-mail address of Al Gore:
e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:
Please complete the following letters with your:
signature
printed name and address
> -----------------------------------------------------------
(date)
The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
E-Mail:
Dear Mr. Vice President,
On the 21-st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about your
concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, mankind is approaching an important
precedent: On the 3-rd of March, 1997 the International Court of Justice will
start the first international environmental lawsuit in The Hague.
The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region: the Szigetkoz. This name, loosely translated,
means: The region of a thousand islands, yet today there is not a single
island left there, because the water is gone. Still, the implications of this
case go beyond the future of just one river or just the 400 endangered
species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question: Do national governments have the right to do as
they please with our ecosystems, or does mankind as a whole have a right to
protect the rich natural treasures, which belong to all of us?
Mr. Vice President, in 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui has accepted. A Compromise Plan was also submitted to the Court,
which would guarantee the restoration of the ancient Szigetkoz wetlands,
together with fulfilling the water- supply, shipping and energy needs of the
region. For details of this plan and for other aspects of the lawsuit, please
ask Bela Liptak or visit the web-site at: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
Dear Mr. Gore. It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the attention it deserves by the media. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details. A statement by you, can guarantee that attention. Please make that
statement.
Respectfully yours,
> -----------------------------------------------------------
(date)
The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail: )
RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague
Dear Madame Secretary:
Please accept my congratulations on your well deserved appointment, which to
us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray of hope. We hope
for even greater American understanding and compassion for the people of
Central Europe, for their progress and stability.
Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone for
American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is beginning
next week in the Hague. This new tone would be consistent with the US policy
of expanding Western structures to Central and Eastern Europe, and to engage
the US more actively in helping resolve emerging inter-country conflicts in
the Region by (I) urging your West European partners to assist more
pro-actively; and (ii) calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to
accept the Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the future.
Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent with the
present US policy based on a global approach to environmental issues and on
seeking to mobilize all relevant political (multilateral, international,
non-governmental and civic society) forces to assist in avoiding
environmental catastrophes caused by bilateral agreements that had been drawn
up by non-representative governments under a regional policy framework which
was imposed by Moscow.
Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice, but would
be fulfilling an American obligation by so doing. This is, because it was the
Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and Hungary
and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the guarantors of the
integrity of the two nation's territories. The Treaty also stated that the
two nations DO NOT have the right to make changes, unless the Great Powers
first approve of the change. Yet in 1977, under Soviet direction, the two
nations signed a contract to move the Danube, previously their border river,
into an artificial canal on Slovak territory. For so doing, they did not ask,
nor did they receive the approval of the Great Powers.
Madame Secretary. The International Court of Justice must be advised that
the Moscow initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID, because it
is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the legal obligation
and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill her role as a guarantor of
the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more importantly, it is in the interest of the
United States to make sure that the Danube is returned into its riverbed and
thereby the stability of the region is maintained.
Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.
Respectfully yours,
> -----------------------------------------------------------
******************************************************************************
*********************
****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************
Priority:
Normal
Background:
The International Court of Justice has elected a new President, Stephen
Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in America. Since
the new President probably does not know the details about the upcoming
Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform him. It is likely that
the new President would be receptive to a letter campaign.
We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise Plan proposed
by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This plan ensures the
survival of the Danube Wetlands.
What to do:
Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court, Stephen
Schwebel. Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that is, to consider
the Compromise Plan. Feel free to use the sample letter below.
Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please do not hesitate to
send him a fax. EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO
JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
Fax number: ++31-70-3649-928
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>
The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928
Dear Mr. President:
Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new President of the
International Court of Justice. Your professional background is sure to
further increase the reputation of the Court.
This month, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on an
environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind. In ruling on the future
of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia, you and your
fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers, forests, and oceans
are not the sole properties of nations, that nations do not have the right to
destroy unique ecosystems.
The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in groundwater
level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This region, which was
the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed because the lung of the
river (the wetland region) has been cut out. Shipping on the Danube has
suffered because of flimsy construction and because the dam is not designed
to handle ice. Most importantly, the population of the region is in physical
danger and two-thirds of the populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have
already fled.
The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to the
Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural riverbed. I
hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of the Szigetkoz by
giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as it makes its historic
ruling.
Respectfully,
<name, title, address>
--------------488542E54144--

At 09:50 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Kristof in, Re: The Cost of NATO expansion wrote:
<snip>
>What? Are you seriously suggesting that conflict is the result of having a>military?
Then Joe Szalai wrote :
<<It's really difficult to have a war without an army. Trust me.
The trouble is, that in every country there is ALWAYS an army.
The questions is which one....( it could be someone else4s one. )
Miklos
<snip>

In article >,
says...
>>At 03:42 PM 3/1/97 GMT, Sam wrote:>>>Joe, are pensioners in Canada exempt from the indirect methods of
paying for
>>their health care, such as sales taxes, etc.? It never occurred to me
before
>>you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of>>indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to
the
>>Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?>> That's my question also. Because if yes, then the Canadian
system
>might be actually more expensive because people on Medicare don't pay
the
>kind of taxes Aniko was talking about.>> Eva>>
Of course we do! We pay GST and PST on everything we buy, and both
Canada Pension and private pensions are taxable incomes. The Old
Age Security payment, which one gets after age 65, is being clawed back
gradually over a certain income (I believe $51,000/year - I am not there
yet).
Agnes

In article >,
says...
>>Here in Ontario,"medicare "is still " free".As I mentioned,we still can
not
>compare the American Medicare to our health care.
Andy, I always thought you lived in Montreal. Did you just recently
moved to Ontario, or am I confusing you with someone else?
Agnes

In article >, Janos
Zsargo > writes:
>Subject: A question to S.Stowe>From: Janos Zsargo >>Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 02:56:41 -0500>>Hi Sam,>>welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.>Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.>I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.>>J.Zs>>
That would be the South Slavs, Janos. Since you spend so much time with at
least one hand searching DejaNews, maybe you could find the post where I made
that error. Or did you or Frank Novak simply think I wrote "South Serbs"
instead of "South Slavs"? Whichever it might be, I'm sure you'll report back
with your customary provincial sneer which sees much, understands little and
sounds like a donkey hee-hawing at the village water pump.
Sam Stowe
"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:
> Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately. Sam didn't say>*South Serbs.* I think he said South Slavs.>> Eva
Thanks, Eva. But even if I did misspeak (miswrite?) and used "South Serbs," how
likely is it that you would have been the only other person who understood what
I was getting at? Now, don't get me wrong -- you're smart, probably the
smartest person on the list. But is it a case of you being all that smart or
Janos having a thick noggin?
Sam Stowe
"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers

This Friday, March 7, TVO (TV Ontario) is showing "Sweet Emma, Dear Bobe" at
10pm.
***"Sweet Emma, Dear Bobe" (1992, drama) Johanna Ter Steege, Eniko Borcsak.
Two Hungarian teachers leave the countryside to live and work in Budapest.
(1hr.30min)
_________________________
I heard some very good reviews of this movie on the CBC when it was first
playing in Toronto. I didn't have a chance to see it then, but I look
forward to seeing it on Friday.
Has anyone on this newsgroup seen the movie? Would you recommend it?
Joe Szalai

At 10:28 PM 3/2/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:
>In article >, "Eva S. Balogh
"
> writes:>>> Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately. Sam didn't say>>*South Serbs.* I think he said South Slavs.>>>> Eva>>Thanks, Eva. But even if I did misspeak (miswrite?) and used "South Serbs," ho
w
>likely is it that you would have been the only other person who understood wha
t
>I was getting at? Now, don't get me wrong -- you're smart, probably the>smartest person on the list. But is it a case of you being all that smart or>Janos having a thick noggin?
From my dictionary: Yugoslav [Serbo-Croatian, jugo or jug, south, and Slav].
This is from a 1979 dictionary (Webster's Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary,
Dorset & Baber), at that time the existence of the Bosnians wasn't as well
known as it is now. Being ethnically cleansed makes peoples known.
Gabor D. Farkas

In a message dated 97-03-02 20:13:11 EST, you write:
<< This Friday, March 7, TVO (TV Ontario) is showing "Sweet Emma, Dear Bobe"
at
10pm.
***"Sweet Emma, Dear Bobe" (1992, drama) Johanna Ter Steege, Eniko
Borcsak.
Two Hungarian teachers leave the countryside to live and work in Budapest.
(1hr.30min)
...........<snip>
>Has anyone on this newsgroup seen the movie? Would you recommend it? >Joe Szalai
Hi Joe,
This is really funny!
Just today I called a friend to ask if he could remember the title of this
movie from
two years ago that had such an affect on me. All I could recall of the title
was
the name 'Bo"be' . My friend could not remember . . . . Thank you Joe!
I loved the movie, I thought it was very well done. Oh, and the music - all
through
the film - Schumann's Carnaval,Op.9. It drove me wild. It is perfect.
So, here is one opinion for you. Let us know how you liked it.
Best regards, Marina