...It is more likely to be a rational desire not to be chimped out on and murdered for any or no reason, the schools not to be shit, the standards of public conduct not to be horrific etc.

Desires you listed are rational, based on material reality. Demonic possession enters when the lust for money no longer has any impact on biological standard of living: no better food or medical care, no less noise, no less violence, etc. Some rich people (like Buffett, supposedly) continue making more money because it's like a hobby that they enjoy. However, many rich people don't enjoy their work, but nevertheless keep working because of an irrational lust for more and more money. That is demon possession.

Last edited by Shemp on July 16th, 2019, 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

If there are aspects of the material universe we don't understand, they are still aspects of the material universe. Everything is either material or spiritual, one or the other.

Whatever the actual nature of reality, there would seem to be some value in making a distinction between what we think we currently understand and the influences on us that are apparent that we don’t understand, though they might well turn out to be part of a cohesive greater whole.

True, but it's even more important to distinguish material and spiritual. Material is outside the mind. Spiritual is within, especially the subconscious mind.

Whatever the actual nature of reality, there would seem to be some value in making a distinction between what we think we currently understand and the influences on us that are apparent that we don’t understand, though they might well turn out to be part of a cohesive greater whole.

True, but it's even more important to distinguish material and spiritual. Material is outside the mind. Spiritual is within, especially the subconscious mind.

We're back to this. Maybe it has external existence we don't know about. Maybe there is no internal and external. Your conception of the "subconscious mind" seems somewhat spiritualist.

Yes, we're back to this, because you, like @Winston, are an atheist materialist without even realizing it. The spirit world exists, and it is distinct from the material world. You and other materialists always try to make the spirit world a hidden piece of the material world. Hidden pieces of the material world, like subatomic particles or galaxies far away from us, are still material.

The spirit world is hidden in a different way. Most of the mind is subconscious, this hidden. Especially the demonic parts are subconscious, with only the consequences of demonic possession visible in the conscious mind.

The spirit world is hidden in a different way. Most of the mind is subconscious, this hidden. Especially the demonic parts are subconscious, with only the consequences of demonic possession visible in the conscious mind.

But might not demons exist as separate, conscious independent entities?

The spirit world is hidden in a different way. Most of the mind is subconscious, this hidden. Especially the demonic parts are subconscious, with only the consequences of demonic possession visible in the conscious mind.

But might not demons exist as separate, conscious independent entities?

Demons are independent and separate from the conscious mind, which is why we can't easily control them and they can possess us.

As for whether denons are conscious, this is a misleading question. As babies, we learn to distinguish conscious from unconscious objects. Conscious objects can be trained, using smiles or threats or other means, to do what we want, whereas unconscious objects cannot be trained. Both can be unpredictable. The wind, for example, is unpredictable but also untrainable, hence unconscious. Humans and higher animals, like dogs and cows, can be trained, and so are conscious. Lower animals, like insects, cannot be trained, and so are effectively unconscious, though in practice we call them conscious but too stupid to train, since it's clear insects are closer to higher animals than to phenomena like the wind.

We do not use the terms conscious and unconscious for spiritual beings, including demons, gods, guardian angels, etc. None of these spiritual beings can be trained to behave according to our will. They are clearly more like the wind than like animals or other humans. That is, they are unpredictable but also uncontrollable and untrainable. We can resist demons, listen to guardian angels, obey the will of the gods, but we cannot ever control them. Similarly, we can harness the power of the wind when it favors us and take shelter from it when it opposes us, but we can never control the wind. So if forced to answer the question, are demons conscious?, the best answer would be no.

I will mention that grasshopper @Winston here, since he needs to read this and my preceding comments. He is still struggling with the darkness of his materialist beliefs, but evidently wants to be enlightened.