if he had said, nope its never going to happen, then that would be cool, but that means that its on the table

free to play moving to pay to win.

this will happen in swtor with in 6 months.

I think its important to clarify that, as a revenue model, I don't have any "beef" with F2P beyond its greater vulnerability to shifting towards P2W than P2P. The problem I have is that it doesn't "fix" the game. Now in both DDO's and TOR's case I can see the validity of going F2P. DDO was having a hard time justifying even keeping the servers open and TOR appears to still be in the midst of an ongoing severe issue with retention. In the same vein I can absolutely see why Vanguard would go F2P. Its not like it had prospects of growth any time soon.

LotRO is more questionable. From what I recall from trying the game and from those I knew playing it, the game's population wasn't growing, but it wasn't shrinking either. Like EVE, LotRO appeared to have found its "niche." They had regularly been adding content to the game and seemed to be doing fine. The "need" to go F2P just didn't seem to be there. In my opinion, there wasn't anything that really needed to be "fixed." It has its niche and adding a cash shop and transients might look attractive in the short run, but how beneficial they'll be in the long run?

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

Free to play will only worsen an mmo.
1)Free to play will attract less desirable players.

a) Imagine a sub-mmo being like a restaurant.Where the price of the food is decent.All kind of folks go eat there,and you rarely have rude people.
Then imagine the restaurant becoming free.You can eat there for free,only some types of food require payment.
While the food still has the same quality you can already foresee what kind of people will go to that restaurant.There will be way more rude and unpleasant people.In our case,an mmo,there will be way more trolls,douchebags and scammers.

b)It will also attract lower quality gamers.Obviously the group in a) fits this description.But it also will attract people who aren't really interested in the game,but are willing to try it because it's free.Those types of people while mostly come and go,play sporadically...actually they will not add much ''value players'' to the game.
By that I mean players who are genuinely interested in the game and will actively be part of the community,they will be your raiding friends,they will bring competitivity to the game.
While the ''free casual'' type of players don't actually do anything bad and they even add value players in small numbers they do break down the social climate.
This is of course subjective.This is out of the pov of the active and involved player.Not necessarily only hardcore player,the midcore (casual active) player too.
To state the obvious,an mmo is a social game,the more game is flooded with ''free casual'' players,the more you have to deal with them,the less chance for you to encounter like-minded players because you have to filter through a bigger less desirable crowd.
They will also make value players leave who don't like F2p games for this reason.You can count me as one of those.
So to say these players don't have a bad intention,but things are what they are,they lower the social quality of the game.

2)Free to play will lead to greedy content.Content designed in a way for you to go to the cash shop asap.
I can't understand how people like to think about money while they play,that's why I like sub-based mmo's,you pay once a month and you're DONE,you can go on enjoying the game,and if you want something in the game,you actually play the game for it.I may be too old school but I like the idea of doing something in the game to get a reward I want.

Call me old school again but when I buy a game I expect it to have the actual game.
Not the ''main part'' of the game while you're expected to pay for extra DLC,cash shop,...
About the developing part.Things are what you put into it.
What kind of game do you expect when it's mostly free and the company need to make money through their cash shop?
Its not gonna grow into something impressing that way.

a) Imagine a sub-mmo being like a restaurant.Where the price of the food is decent.All kind of folks go eat there,and you rarely have rude people.
Then imagine the restaurant becoming free.You can eat there for free,only some types of food require payment.
While the food still has the same quality you can already foresee what kind of people will go to that restaurant.There will be way more rude and unpleasant people.In our case,an mmo,there will be way more trolls,douchebags and scammers.

Terrible analogy, does not support the premise.

b)It will also attract lower quality gamers.

False premise.

Obviously the group in a) fits this description.But it also will attract people who aren't really interested in the game,but are willing to try it because it's free.Those types of people while mostly come and go,play sporadically...actually they will not add much ''value players'' to the game.
By that I mean players who are genuinely interested in the game and will actively be part of the community,they will be your raiding friends,they will bring competitivity to the game.

You make a lot of predictions here based on nothing. No references, no supporting facts, just a lot of predictive nonsense. Does not support any premise mentioned so far.

While the ''free casual'' type of players don't actually do anything bad and they even add value players in small numbers they do break down the social climate.This is of course subjective.

As is the entirety of your post, not to mention vaguely anecdotal.

This is out of the pov of the active and involved player.Not necessarily only hardcore player,the midcore (casual active) player too.
To state the obvious,an mmo is a social game,the more game is flooded with ''free casual'' players,the more you have to deal with them,the less chance for you to encounter like-minded players because you have to filter through a bigger less desirable crowd.

It's clear here that you don't understand how player populations work. Does not support any premise.

They will also make value players leave who don't like F2p games for this reason.You can count me as one of those.

This is the closest you came in your whole post to saying something factual/objective.

So to say these players don't have a bad intention,but things are what they are,they lower the social quality of the game.

False premise.

2)Free to play will lead to greedy content. Content designed in a way for you to go to the cash shop asap.

False premise.

I can't understand how people like to think about money while they play,that's why I like sub-based mmo's,you pay once a month and you're DONE,you can go on enjoying the game,and if you want something in the game,you actually play the game for it.I may be too old school but I like the idea of doing something in the game to get a reward I want.

Subjective reasoning.

Call me old school again but when I buy a game I expect it to have the actual game.
Not the ''main part'' of the game while you're expected to pay for extra DLC,cash shop,...

More subjective reasoning.

About the developing part.Things are what you put into it.

Not even sure what that means.

What kind of game do you expect when it's mostly free and the company need to make money through their cash shop?
Its not gonna grow into something impressing that way.

Can't see the forest for the trees... I think Star Wars: The Old Republic will be just fine without players who don't understand alternative pay models and are so attached to the old way of doing things that they become irrational when faced with the prospect of change. Please move on.

^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

They will also make value players leave who don't like F2p games for this reason.You can count me as one of those.

1) Wall of text hits your eyeballs like the Death Star.

2)If your quote above is indicative of what kinds of players won't be around when F2P hits, sign me up a hundred times. I'm glad that you 'count yourself' as one of the 'value players' that would leave. If everyone who thought like this were to up and leave internet forums and all MMOs, I think the world would collectively rejoice.

Most of your arguments are just bashing on people with no basis for those opinions.

You make a lot of predictions here based on nothing. No references, no supporting facts, just a lot of predictive nonsense. Does not support any premise mentioned so far.

As is the entirety of your post, not to mention vaguely anecdotal.

It's clear here that you don't understand how player populations work. Does not support any premise.

This is the closest you came in your whole post to saying something factual/objective.

False premise.

False premise.

Subjective reasoning.

More subjective reasoning.

Not even sure what that means.

Can't see the forest for the trees... I think Star Wars: The Old Republic will be just fine without players who don't understand alternative pay models and are so attached to the old way of doing things that they become irrational when faced with the prospect of change. Please move on.

What an empty reply.You don't expect people to take you seriously when you don't provide anything constructive yourself?
Shouting ''it's wrong'',literally anyone can do it.
Just slow down there.
Post your arguments about the subject and then maybe we can start thinking about who's right.

False premise.False premise.Terrible analogy, does not support the premise.False premise.Does not support any premise mentioned so far.As is the entirety of your post, not to mention vaguely anecdotal.Does not support any premise.False premise.False premise.Subjective reasoning.More subjective reasoning.

Can't see the forest for the trees... I think Star Wars: The Old Republic will be just fine without players who don't understand alternative pay models and are so attached to the old way of doing things that they become irrational when faced with the prospect of change. Please move on.

While he's post might not be factually correct yours is even worse, you dismiss he's whole post without even the slightest hint of intelligent reasoning nor argument. I'd love to see your factual support for the claim that alternative pay methods are better or equally good, and even if they are equally good why it's bad to want the one over the other.

What an empty reply.You don't expect people to take you seriously when you don't provide anything constructive yourself?
Shouting ''it's wrong'',literally anyone can do it.
Just slow down there.
Post your arguments about the subject and then maybe we can start thinking about who's right.

There's literally nothing to discuss, as you've yet to state anything of substance that wasn't pulled, seemingly, out of your ass.

No offense. You made a terrible argument. There's no rebuttal other than to say what an empty, pointless statement it was.

^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

What an empty reply.You don't expect people to take you seriously when you don't provide anything constructive yourself?
Shouting ''it's wrong'',literally anyone can do it.
Just slow down there.
Post your arguments about the subject and then maybe we can start thinking about who's right.

Its not an empty reply. He just disagrees with you. Honestly its not like we have not seen similar claims before and, even though I might agree with some of them, it is hardly required that he go into every rebuttal or counter in depth.

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

I obviously point out that I'm not ignoring there are unpleasant players on P2P too.

Yeah, but you didn't support that statement at all. It's purely subjective.

Just saying that something is rare doesn't mean it's so. If you want to make the argument that F2P games attract undesirable players with greater frequency, then say that (first of all) and then back it up.

^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

Yeah, but you didn't support that statement at all. It's purely subjective.

Just saying that something is rare doesn't mean it's so. If you want to make the argument that F2P games attract undesirable players with greater frequency, then say that (first of all) and then back it up.

I have yet to see you back up why switching model is good nor why it's supposedly irrational not to want it.

I have yet to see you back up why switching model is good nor why it's supposedly irrational not to want it.

Well the "short term" results we've seen for games like DDO and LotRO would appear to be exactly the sort of thing a game with ongoing severe retention problems would need. Of course "long term" could be something else entirely and I personally doubt how a game as almost shockingly linear as TOR is will benefit for long, retention-wise, even when offering such content for free.

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

Well the "short term" results we've seen for games like DDO and LotRO would appear to be exactly the sort of thing a game with ongoing severe retention problems would need. Of course "long term" could be something else entirely and I personally doubt how a game as almost shockingly linear as TOR is will benefit for long, retention-wise, even when offering such content for free.

Yeah I think we concluded most that we can on the topic by now I just found it interesting that he made such a big stink about some one posting he's opinion with the argument that he needed to back it up and then proceed to not supply he's own backed up opinion. =)

2)If your quote above is indicative of what kinds of players won't be around when F2P hits, sign me up a hundred times. I'm glad that you 'count yourself' as one of the 'value players' that would leave. If everyone who thought like this were to up and leave internet forums and all MMOs, I think the world would collectively rejoice.

Most of your arguments are just bashing on people with no basis for those opinions.

What,do you really believe a free game will actually attract a crowd of people as involved and pleasant as opposed to a P2P where the players are so interested they're willing to pay and support the game?
Also people tend to respect what they payed for,when there's no money to hold them back,a lot of unpleasant players will act out.
They will care less about getting banned,it's free anyway,or they can make a free account and try to troll on that one.
This is just 1 example of the many bad sides of F2P.

QoL features are content updates. They introduced 1.3 which gave us quite a bit. It redefined augmenting, allowing us to min/Max properly. It came out with LFG and rated war zones. There were many legacy updates and class overhauls. If that's not a content update then I don't know what one is.

It appears that you actually do not know what a content update is. A content update adds content. Rated WZs are not new content (well, it depends on who you ask, but since they're just the same WZs with a rating attached, I wouldn't call them new content). LFG is a feature, not content. Class updates, augmenting updates, etc, are all mechanical tweaks/fixes and not content. 1.3 was not a content patch.

Pulled out of my ass?By that you mean I made it up?
So if my opinion isn't backed up by statistics and scientific studies to you it's worth nothing?

Therein lies the problem. You need to preface this as your opinion, or at the very least qualify your statements as opinions.

You didn't do that. You made a lot of statements that look like they're trying to be facts and some that are trying to be predictions. You framed your entire rant as though it was a statement of irrefutable fact. That's bad form.

It would have been fine if you'd bothered to put any facts in it.

Well welcome to an mmo fansite.
Here we use our experience,our expectations,our personal views on the world to form an opinion.
Each one thinks what he posts is right,and we tend to debate what's truly right.
So far you're only blaming me for not being able to accurately predict the future or whatever you view as ''not pulled out of my ass''.
I actually summed up all your posts towards me in that last 1 sentence,do you now understand why your posts are empty?

Observational comments about your poor writing habits and broken logic are not empty. If you're here expecting a debate about something, you'd better be equipped to handle it. So far, your first attempt is an abject failure.

Last edited by Profyrion; 2012-08-09 at 08:46 PM.

^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

There's literally nothing to discuss, as you've yet to state anything of substance that wasn't pulled, seemingly, out of your ass.

No offense. You made a terrible argument. There's no rebuttal other than to say what an empty, pointless statement it was.

My Wall of text didn't survive.
Shortly,I'm wrong cause I made this all up?
Well no,me being the source of all these claims does not necessarily make me wrong.
In fact you said I was wrong without posting any arguments,so you also pulled out of your behind that I was wrong because I made this up.
Does that mean you consider yourself wrong since you made your ''wrong claim'' up and this makes me right?

edit:
Reading your reply to my misfortuned Wall of text,I must say you don't have the right to judge me when you apparently descended to my level when you answered my ''bad rant''.If you were not (dare I be rude) an hypocrite you would have pointed out to me that I was posting in a bad manner and you would have countered my arguments ignoring the ''bad'' setting I've apparently put them in.That way you would have been righteous and maybe a century closer to calling one my posts an abject failure.