Posted
by
Soulskill
on Sunday January 11, 2009 @12:15PM
from the polygraphs-and-mind-melds-to-follow dept.

Julie188 writes "Here's a new idea to stop certification test-taking cheaters; Cisco is considering introducing a verbal interview portion to its CCIE lab exams across the world. Cisco confirmed that it is running a pilot in its exam lab in Beijing, China that involves candidates taking a 10-minute verbal interview as part of their lab exam. Cisco said that if the pilot is successful, the interview could be introduced as a requirement for CCIE Routing & Switching candidates worldwide. The company has been running the pilot since August."

I didn't know CCIE had issues with cheaters but maybe all cert exams are susceptible to it. I think if this works that maybe MS and other companies should take notice and think about using the idea for their own certs. Doing this could increase the value of the certs to companies and therefore to people who are thinking of taking them.

For me, cheating is using on the Cisco certs was using Dynamips [ipflow.utc.fr](Cisco 7200 emulator) to load a Cisco IOS image from the pirate bay [thepiratebay.org] and studying for them from home, only touching the huge books for practice exams, etc.

Its great for just configuring one router, but college still played a huge role for testing a whole "virtual internet" of routers, since I lacked the funding for such a setup at the time (again, college being the keyword here). I'm due up for taking the exam again pretty soon, so I might hav

Unless you consider buying 7200s to practice on cheating, I would say using dynamips is just another way to get some experience working with the ios. Downloading images on the other hand, is probably illegal.;)

Microsoft has been doing this in a fashion for a little while. Look at the Microsoft Certified Master and Microsoft Certified Architect programs. The Master program is a real class that you take, complete with exams and simulations to take. The architect program typically has you appear in front of a peer review board to get your certification. They're great programs that I'm considering going through, but the price tags are a bit steep for both, and you need to clear some time/additional money to trave

Apparently, it will become a trend for the high-end tier of technology certifications.VMware [vmware.com] will also be adding it [vmware.com] the their VCDX [vmware.com] certification, but not to the "more common" VCP.

The verbal interview should be followed (or replaced) by a practical demonstration of proficiency in troubleshooting on Cisco equipment with induced malfunctions. Allow X amount of time for each exercise, then move on so the testee isn't disqualified by one question.

Did it change? When I was there (2002) they had just transitioned to a a one-day exam format that consisted of configuring a number of routers (8) with a crapton of different technologies. The primary network was frame-relay with OSPF. On top of that there was an isdn dial backup site, an Atm point-to-point link (and you had to configure the PVC in the atm switch) a Token ring switch I never did manage to get right, and Cat 6x Ethernet switches. I had to configure a single voip station and some SNA tran

The CCIE - which is what they are doing this for - already has a practical section. You have to go to Cisco's site and they setup a broken network that you need to fix. I believe it's a week long affair that is graded by cisco's experts.

Cheaters or not, there's definitely problems with lots of certs out there. It's too easy to get a cert by simply studying the training guide, and doing example test after example test in order to pass the exam, and still not know how to practially apply any of it when you actually have your cert. I've seen a few too many MCDBA who couldn't write a simple join query, or set up log shipping, to know that most certs, by themselves are pretty irrelevant.

Which holiday is irrelevant. The whole point is to not lose a holidays identity because there is more than one during the same period. Maybe I am not PC?

For the record I couldn't care less. I find my self wondering more and more each year why I am celebrating a holiday of a religion I don't even follow. (kids) We need a return to the root of our holidays. Christmas was a pagan year end celebration. Easter was a pagan holiday celebrating fertility. It fell in the spring as winter ended and new life

So, essentially your reasoning is that it would be ludicrous for somebody to be offended by a simple, holiday-related sentiment offered in good spirit? Or at least, they shouldn't be nearly as offended by yours as you are by theirs?

Your logic reversal has confused me. I believe the idea is that *nobody* should be offended. I'm an agnostic atheist, but I still enjoy the 'holiday spirit' and it doesn't bother me when I'm wished a Merry Christmas, Happy Feast, Happy Holidays, Happy Hanukah, whatever the celebration is in whatever country I'm in. People go out of their way to be offended by things they shouldn't be, and that's the heart of the issue.

In re your first paragraph: I can only suppose you're a Christian. Would you actually be happier if they specifically invoked your lord Christ for the sole purpose of getting you to spend money on... petty material frivolities? Seriously?

In re your second paragraph: The situation is not as symmetric as you make it seem. Hint: schools don't have solstice parties, and most students and faculty likely wouldn't even know what it was. That's just a strawman you pulled out of a hat.

I'm not the slightest bit religious, but if someone says "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannukah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" or whatever to me, I take it as it just being friendly, as opposed to "imposing their religious beliefs" or somesuch crap.
It's just a friendly sentiment, and people getting their tits all in a wringer over it seems to miss the whole point.

The only people I've *ever* seen get actually pissed off about this sort of stuff are Christians who can't seem to stand any diminishing of their cultural privileges and dominance. I've *never* experienced or even heard of someone of another faith respond with anything other than, for example, "Actually, I'm Jewish, so we'll be celebrating Hanukah."

Hang out with more kids. They'll give it to you straight up, they'll say "hey, I'm [Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic, Atheist, or other] this is what I believe, mainly because my parents tell me too, but still...

I'm tempted to agree with you. Problem is, I don't believe that symbols of fertility will help the crops grow, so Easter would be straight out whether going with the Christian meaning or the pagan meaning. My suggestion? Just ride along and enjoy the bunny.

It's the same with Christmas... I might not be filled with Jesus juice, but nor do I feel the need to worship the goddess of nature, the sun god, or the god of agriculture. So I just drink the nog and play Santa.

The reason there is an Easter bunny is the rabbit was the pagan symbol for fertility. In the spring we have new growth and the land becomes fertile and alive. It all makes a lot of sense to me. Why did we ever move away from that? Oh yeah, that's right..... that christ guy!

This is true. Maybe your right. I certainly don't think that some guy or bunny is going to affect me or my crops in any way. What I do think is that the pagan beliefs make more sense as far as what happens in the world. They seem to be more in touch with the earth and not so much some "god."

Don't get me wrong. I don't "believe" in any of it. I just think it is more in touch. Seems more sensible to me than just following some guy because if you don't you will burn forever. Now THAT is silly.....

I thought the lab had a verbal component, but apparently not. In any case, good idea.

It isn't verbal, just not written. I don't know the exact details because I haven't taken it myself but I work with a CCIE. There is a troubleshooting lab that you must take which accompanies the written portion. This used to be setup such that you would setup the lab equipment for your personal test on day 1. Overnight they would screw it up and then the 2nd day you had to fix it. Now it is just one day and you don't set it up from the ground up (cabling, etc.) You have access to Cisco docs to do the lab but you are limited to 9 hours to do the lab portion. If you are spending all your time looking up some piece of info you won't come close to completing it and some of the tasks are cumulative. Read this [com.com] for more info. They changed the format back in 2001. I don't see how anyone could really cheat on this part since you have to know how to configure the devices but maybe this interview is supposed to aid with minimizing the cheaters on the written portion. If you are cheating there though then I'd think you would have to cheat on the lab and if you don't need to cheat on the lab that you wouldn't have to on the written but I assume Cisco is seeing some trends that indicate cheating in some way.

One of the problems that has started coming up in some places (ie Beijing) is people taking the test for one another, faking their identity. Also there are a lot of boot camps and crash courses out there now that could theoretically allow one to get just a tenuous enough grasp on the exact material to barely pass.

As a CCIE Voice who actually worked to earn it I applaud this move. I'm prepping for my R&S now and honestly this won't affect my prep work at all. If you know it thoroughly enough to pass t

It slices both ways... I guess it depends on what would be meant by a handful of questions.

If they wanted, they could probably find questions to ask that would exclude 95% of otherwise qualified candidates on a technicality, despite them acing labs, tests, and all with near-perfect scores.

i.e. Find the one minor point they missed on the test (if interviewer has access to their submitted exams) and ask lots of questions about whatever they missed, or on some question they spent lots of time on during t

There's *a lot* of stuff on the written that's not in the lab. Asking a couple of verbal questions about stuff candidates supposedly know from the written (but won't be tested on in the lab) seems worthwhile to me.

Also, it ensures that folks who have the highest-level Cisco certification (the PhD of networking) can coherently discuss their trade. At least when I took the CCIE, the first job offered after I passed was in Cisco's TAC - I would hate to call up a newly-minted CCIE there who *couldn't* answer

Seems to me that you don't need to know how to configure the devices for that test... You merely need to know how to use proper version control for your switch configurations.

When I used to run a Cisco shop (one where too many engineers had access to the configuration), I never bothered to troubleshoot configuration issues. I just reverted to the last known good configuration. Way easier than figuring out which bit sombody had flipped.

Certs suck. They're cash cows for the certifying company, and a crutch fo

Its too bad everytime I call Linksys/Cisco (get ready for the irony), I get an Indian person I can't wholly comprehend. Not that I have anything against English-speaking people from India, but most of the time I can only understand two out of every five words they say, which is really bad for service calls.

If I'm calling a support line, pretty much by definition I care, because I've run into something I can't handle.

The real issue here has nothing to do with Indians, or Scotsmen, or anyone else with a particular accent or unfamiliarity with English. It has to do with American outfits wanting to squeeze every penny out of their operating expenses, and see overseas call centers as another way to do that. Take my cellular provider, for instance. They shipped all their phone support to India, have made matters

Where does this bring us? People in India COULD very well fix the problem if they wanted to. But they don't want to because the businesses don't require them to speak well enough, as such the education isn't much directed towards good English skills, etc... And those people who actually speak proper English probably want higher wages than others so companies don't want to hire them. Apparently companies don't do much to further train their employees in this or tell them "You'll get higher wage if you learn

That's like saying Scottish people could learn to speak better English but they don't for whatever reason.

Why should they have to?

I agree the quality of English is related to how much a company wants to pay and in general companies don't want to pay anything.

I think rather than sending phone support jobs over to other countries and trying to convert everyone to speaking the same way, if companies want to make more money then build up economies in areas, like India, through other means. Like creatin

The globalization has brought us this. On one hand, if someone can do the same job cheaper why would anyone pay more? It is like asking if you want to spend $2 or $5 for a cup of coffee. If the coffee is the same, why would you pay more?

The truth is that the coffee or job isn't really the same, but it is the same under the definition "coffee" or "job". Only when you did a lot deeper do you discover that the quality differs.

I don't know if Cisco still does this but at one point you would get a plethora of accents not because of outsourcing but because they were bouncing your call to whatever call center was currently between 9 AM to 5 PM local time. So if you're in Chicago at 4 AM and you call the support line you're going to get someone in Australia. Basically allowed them to have only one shift of support spread out around the world rather than keeping a particular call center running 24/7.

Sigh, PC gone amok. If they're working in IT then they'd better speak English fairly well. Most users have to type commands in English, most documentation is in English, a significant number of fora are in English. If you're not able to communicate reasonably well in English you're going to be at a serious disadvantage, one serious enough that the CCIE isn't likely to save your butt.

At some point people need to realize that there's a difference between ideal and what we've got, most civil rights legislation

Have you ever been outside your country (I'm guessing USA)?
Plenty of people can read and write English perfectly well; in fact plenty of people can read and write English *better* than the vast majority of English speakers (we don't confuse "their" and "they're", for one!). Yet *speaking* it is something else, and not required for most extra-company communication and documentation.

In all fairness, you can be a very bad speaker of English and still be able to read documentation and type commands just fine.
Speaking in English is not equivalent to reading English. You may be able to read it just fine but still not be able to communicate effectively by speaking in English.

Most commands you type on CLI-based interfacse utilize English words, BUT you don't ever actually form complete English sentences.

English speaking countries aren't the only place that utilize software and hardwar

I'm sure, as a pilot in China assumes, that it's based on a common language of the testing area. It sounds more like a mini-interview, so you know the person isn't just memorizing / copying answers, a common form of "cheating".

As a Teaching Assistant at Georgia Tech, we often did one-on-one sessions with students, including 40% of their grade based on how well they answered questions instead of doing the assignment (which was often easily copied).

Other than France? Yes. It's just a matter of practicality. English is simply the most widespread language in the world. If there is a non-native language used by the most people, it would be English. A lot of technical manuals are written in English or are available in English. Code comments are often in English, even when worked on by non-native English programmers. If a non-English company is trying to be more international, their best return would be translating their documentation into English.

Why should they not? Seriously, most of the material is in English anyways, and most of the work-settings require that you handle those with English speaking customers etc anyways. It is the ugly, but de facto language of technology nowadays.

To avoid bias against people who don't speak English as their mother tongue.

Agreed, we should make sure the verbal is in some kind of approved standard language like C or Perl!

In all seriousness yes, I agree (even as a native English speaker). English may be a de facto language, but they should include at least two or three others to cover different regions of the world where it may not be so popular.

Additionally, raising the bar beyond basic competence restricts the market, allowing labor to dictate their own terms (think medical and law licenses).

And makes things many times more expensive than they would be in a normal market (think medical and law expenses).

No, it doesn't. If you want to know where the expenses for medicine come from, check the catalogues of pharma and medical supply companies and the premiums for malpractice insurance, all of which are inflated so far beyond reason as to be incomprehensible.

IT workers are often abused to the point of 80 hour work weeks, and can't even claim overtime thanks to huge corporate lobbyists. These same companies demand certs out the wazoo, all of which cost money and tons of time off the clock, and they should off

No, it doesn't. If you want to know where the expenses for medicine come from, check the catalogues of pharma and medical supply companies and the premiums for malpractice insurance, all of which are inflated so far beyond reason as to be incomprehensible.

Is that why doctors and lawyers, when they graduate make more than most other graduates? Due to insurance companies?

While I agree with the sentiment, once you get more then about 5 employees in an office making a decent salary, that 1811 seems cheap compared to the possibility of down time that could be blamed on me.

Getting calls because you're crappy consumer or SOHO router crashed sucks. Especially when you're talking about VPN routers at branch offices. Cisco is overpriced and obnoxious to deal with, but I've never had a Cisco router crash or even look at me funny in 7 years.

is why the hell they don't let you use a calculator. My conversation with my (now utterly uncertified) instructor went about like this:

"In real life you won't always have a calculator""BS, we're working ON COMPUTERS""Well what if the batteries die?""Solar power, spare batteries, or I could use one of MY computers""And what if the power is out then, smart guy?""Well I guess I won't have very much to do if that happens while I'm working dialed into a router then, will I?"

If you were in the line of work where they ask you to do math during a job interview, I highly doubt they would care if you pulled a calculator out of your pocket. What kind of lame job requires you to answer math questions during the interview anyways?

I have a feeling that the primary purpose for CCIE is not their ability to fix a network. After all, it should be a rare occurrence that the network needs fixing.

No - I think that ability to fix a network is low on the list, which is, to my mind, led by...

1) Generating sales and generally advocating for Cisco

2) Bolstering a companies IT credibility when bidding for business

3) raising the bar to exclude cheaper competitors by making access to certified staff a mandatory part of a bid.

4) Allow board level execs to think the've "done the right thing" by hiring certifed staff who fit the bill.

In these functions, the ability to fit the mental image of what a technical professional should look like seems to me to be a very strong factor and I think there's a real danger that Cisco will make the CCIE a screentest for the role.

People cheat on the lab portion of the CCIE by sending in people to memorize the lab topology and various questions. Then afterward they report back to other with the topology, features etc... It's no different than memorizing the written questions except while there are hundreds of written questions that can be selected for your exam, there's probably only a dozen or so different lab exams.

I do like how VMWares forthcoming VCDX exam will have a verbal component. Similar to how one has to verbally defend their PhD thesis. I for one would like candidates to be able to explain why they made a certain decision or the benefits of going with one design over another. Rather than just seeing how quickly you can configure up the features or memorize test questions.

A ten minute verbal component, is just a very small factor for this exam. I'm not sure why it is even getting any press. I personally would have liked to seen it structured differently.
Instead of the verbal component being one of the first things (as I understand it), I think it should be the last thing. It could be used to gauge the response of some predetermined questions. It could also be used to get a feel for why the candidate done activity x the way they did. It could even be used as the decidi

It has to be one of the first things because they want to use it to weed out the test memorizing people paid to take the lab by the companies that then sell lab cheat sheets/ non-honest classes. It's only another hoop for those people to jump through but it may make a dent for a time.

City and Guilds has had an oral (not verbal,notice) on its advanced exams where you have to submit a project, where the examiner asks questions to find out if you actually did the work yourself. The higher your likely score, the harder the questions get. I really cannot think of an alternative way of verifying that the submitter actually did the work.

The real problem is that they don't change the questions often enough. Every exam I ever took when I was at school or university had past years questions available. It didn't matter, since this years were going to be different.

All Cisco need to do is change the questions more often. That's got to be cheaper than interviewing people in the exam.