Posted 7 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 12:21 p.m. EST by BradB
(2693)
from Washington, DC
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I tend to support a hybrid concept…. Direct Democracy, with Representation, and a People’s Veto …

here’s my take…

Direct Democracy…. one person one vote … is the moral & right thing to do….
Representation… (if not corrupted) … help’s advance the ideas…it keeps the focus on issues … it helps educate the issues to many… it’s very existence keeps the issues in the spot-light… it also provides jobs… and reduces apathy… the problem we are having now is that it is corrupted and wields too much power…

We can keep Representation working for us … there are many ideas on the OWS & NYCGA sites that will force the Rep’s to represent the people….and it will work if we have a “People’s Veto” to insure it…

So we start with Direct Democracy … we have a vote at Community level… then Representative delivers our vote… since we already have the People’s vote.. it will be hard for the Rep to vote his/her own way .. no? …

If a Rep does not deliver the vote of the constituents… we remove him/her from office immediately…

So now if the Rep disagrees with the people’s vote it would be his/her task to campaign and move the people to his/her views before the Community level votes… which will create discussion & build consensus…

If the people lose the solidarity with the Congress, Admisnistration &/or Judicial … it is simple … we organize and assemble a “People’s Veto” of any law .. at any time we see fit… given some threshold … say 75% of registered voters ???

the added advantage… is that now we have our government working for us… We only have to show up when necessary…

Number 1: it is a lot of meetings, consensus building, etc. and we would still have a representative? If we're going to be that active, why not just go direct and eliminate the middle man?

Number 2: Assuming you think that level of participation is limited to the beginning of the process, the momentum dies, the government is quietly and covertly reverted back to a corporate oligarchy. It is the active participation that keeps representatives in check - that concept is as old as Jefferson.

Number 3: 75% veto?! When, if ever, have you seen an election have a 75% margin of victory? I think it is a low threat to the representatives. They market their side of the story and all they need to do is sway 30% of the voters and they get to keep things like the Citizens United decision (I know, not a law but it is outrageous nonetheless...)

Number 4: Why does the rep have a bigger voice than the rest of us at any point in time?

I advocate a very local community level GA (50-100 people or so.) When the numbers reach 100, the GA splits. There is a lot of evidence to point to the efficacy of working with groups of people less than 100. 150 seems to be the 'upper limit' of human social cognition. Most collectivist systems break-down into hierarchy above that number.

These local GA's represent people in a community and attempt to meet and address as many of their needs as possible.

When decisions need to be made on a higher level, a GA of 100 local GA's is assembled (GA2) and is made up of one representative for each GA1. Representatives are limited to the decisions of their home GA1 - they cannot stray from these mandates. Representatives are selected much like jury duty is selected today.

In 5 levels, this system could represent more people than live on Earth today - directly.

ie.
please consider thinking more deeply about how representation can work. Do we need to be represented by 1 person on all issues? Do we need to be represented by somebody who lives close to us (in our district)? Or should we rethink representation at a more fundamental level. Should we have the ability to be represented by one person on economics a different person on environment, etc? Should we be able to choose a representative who shares our values instead of our address?

We can and should be creative in exploring all possibilities before deciding on a way forward…
.......
also,

There would of course be many possibilities. Here is one: start by looking at each committee in congress. Break them apart and have them function as independent policy making bodies with autonomy over the policy area, but with one key change: we each have a representative on each committee (now an autonomous legislative body).

Rather than being districted geographically, all candidates run in a single national election which uses some kind of proportional representation. We vote for them based on candidates who stand for policy we believe in for that committee. We might have parties or coalitions that are only active in policy areas where they have passionate beliefs – for example unions or labor parties may not be too active in foreign policy committees. However, these policy limited coalitions might have significant representation within the policy area they focus on (to the degree that this reflects the public will as identified by proportional representation).

How is that for a start? I am really just brainstorming here with the intent of demonstrating how we can start getting out of the narrow box the current system has placed us in.

Of course the same kind of thought can be applied to the executive and judicial branches as well – why elect a president with power that is these days nearly unlimited rather than directly electing heads of each governmental agency?

Many of the “protections” put in place by the founders are fundamentally anti-democratic. They demonstrate trust in an elite who are able to work the system to get elected to powerful positions to make the most important decisions (such as supreme court appointments) rather than allowing the people to make these decisions for themselves. Personally, I trust the collective voice of the people far more than I trust the voice of anyone who would seek the near unlimited power of the modern presidency.

I like your idea, but I see some weakpoints. The "people's" veto would should be better as a combination with the representative's vote. I think throwing in a fourth power in the three branch constitutional democracy would undermine the writer's, and thus be determined constitutional if it ever made its way to federal court for determination. Instead, I think your asking the people to vote on every issue, every time one's brought up, which isn't necessarilly anything thats going to hapen. We ask people to vote at least twice every four years, and that's still something that people can't seem to find time to fit into their lives. If that's acceptable on a national scale, than shrink the number of people down to find an acceptable rate of voting at the state level. You could even take it to a county level or city level. With the instant availability of information, anyone could vote at anything ranging from a public computer to a smart phone. I agree with your idea of having the people vote on every topic. I agree with your idea of having the people hold the veto as well, even though I think the people's veto should simply be the veto of the representatives who are elected by the people to form a collective representative vote. Even if everybody isn't coming out and voting for that topic right at that point, the people who find it most important to vote on that subject will find a way to exercise their right.

The solution is a National Audit Body (NAB) who has a small budget but budget grows as a percentage of the costs cut from other government agencies and contractors. The problem is that government growth is unobstructed and fostered to grow but NAB will only grow by chopping the FAT in government. The opposing goals of NAP and normal government will cause a reduction of waist or corruption with those making the decisions accountable for the decisions made.
NAB can report to congress for budget cuts to government agencies and the IRS with the DOJ for cases of government corruption or contractor corruption. Based on the cuts made by congress, the NAB gets an increase in the NAB budget as a percentage of the actual cuts made to other agencies or contractors. The increases in the NAB budget can be phased out over a three year period resulting in a reduced NAB budget as the waist and corruption in government is eliminated. By this the whole government will run effectively and reduce in size as more value is delivered to the people.
The mandate of the NAD can be to audit government and government contractors, set up standard accounting and documenting practices, and make all recommendation to congress regarding budget cuts, corruption and waist. In the case of corruption, the DOJ and IRS will be provided documentation to further investigations. This should be the focus of 99%. By this the whole government will run effectively and reduce in size as more value is delivered to the people because the government will be incentivized to achieve a value for the people.

ok... just one point about direct voting systems... I used to study internet security a bit... believe me there are a lot of holes... however we also have likely the best security guys available on the team.. anonymously ;)

I think we need to define the process (what we want it to do) before we try to implement or code it... imo

People have to print their ballots with time stamp...for a final physical surety...how to reconcile?

Volunteers who can be called to check and confirm against system?

As for coding...what we created required zero coding...to assemble...just configuring with a mouse in the back end..

The coding is all done at a community level..that anyone can access.

Annon would agree.

I knew a guy once...and he taught me my fist strokes on a keyboard..and he drilled it into me what those guys want....they like open source and they want it transparent..b/c....really, go inquirer on their channels.. we had em in mind when we did this...

"This is direct democracy. A leaderless, global democracy in which people have a voice that is not controlled or distorted by governments on both sides, or swayed by the will of a few elites. The obstruction of the advancement of democracy is irresponsible, if not criminal. There would no longer be a reason to protest in the streets to make ourselves heard. We would be free."

The only real big change in the current process, is that instead of just..."The Elected" having a way to propose..."Bills" we all get a voice...that is why it is called Direct Democracy..as the voice of the people can be directly heard...

I've read everything here so far. I've heard other discussions along these lines. Maybe not the hybrid solution exactly, but the arguments are pretty much the same. I believe that a persons veto comes around during the next voting cycle.

There is alot of low hanging fruit. Lots of problems to be corrected in our government, that have the potential to bring meaningful change to our country. Without having to up-end our Representative Republic.

End Corp Personhood, Campaign Finance Reform, Financial Reform.

Lets do these things first! Before we un-do what our Founding Fathers gave to us - a Representative Republic - for good reasons. That still hold true today.

I don't think we should change the intent. I don't believe the Founding Fathers intended there to be direct voting on specific issues. And neither do I. I elect my representative based on who I feel best represents my interests and concerns. Then, he needs to do his job. Which is voting on the issues. I then evaluate his performance and determine whether he should be re-elected.

Hope you don't consider this "rhetoric". If you want more specifics, and I can try to explain further. I've done my best, hopefully this is acceptable enough for you not be be dismissed. It is my opinion.

My Representative has his own online survey tool on his website and a facebook page where I post my opinions. I think the bigger problem is that not enough people actively participate. People complain about problems but do little to participate in the process to solve them. People need to participate and hold themselves accountable first, and then their politicians.

Hey, everyone, you guys get a board together, the site is yours and you can change it as a democracy in proper protocol to whatever structure and on whatever software makes sense...just keep it transparent..

We did what we did with what we had, so everyone would have an example to get working with.

We came in under the radar as a media site to get deep rooted in search engines..and now we have launched.

No, if you read careful, I said that the surveys are on his website (and via postcards for those that may not have access to a computer). Facebook is used for posting opinions and ideas. And I think this is entirely appropriate.

I think what needs to change is to get the money out of the political system. And people need to take a more active role in participating in government. Which is easier today than it ever was with our Congress persons websites and Facebook. So there really is no excuse for not getting involved in the process.

I like this idea.
In order to make it happen, however, I believe we must overcome the overwhelming power wielded by the less-than-1% of the wealth-holders.
My suggestion is to consider actions such as massive boycotts of surgically-targeted corporations (particularly financial organizations) to force this change. With the power of the internet, it seems that this is doable. For example, if large numbers of people were to move their funds from, say, BofA, to a locally-controlled bank or credit union, I believe that might not only cripple the target, but also send a chilling message to the entire financial industry which I believe is unabashedly arrogant and corrupt (but thanks to our government, legal).
The power of big money is so complete that, in my opinion, it must be challenged by the collective power from millions of small-money advocates of this cause.
I respect the OWS movement and am on-board -- but I believe we need to begin taking non-violent action against the powerful, but vulnerable, les-than-1% who have virtually shut down Washington and our democracy.
I'd am willing to devote time and resources to such a venture, but I don't know how to get it started.
Are OWS supporters interested in something like this? (Or maybe it's already underway -- if so, please post a link so I can join the forces.)
Ron
Retired USMC Viet Vet in California

Brad,
Heck yeah, I like the idea of a People's veto. Why not have a People's veto? This is not the 18th Century. One Social Security number and one vote, sounds like a plan to me. For instance, just because the Government can tax from any source, does not mean that the Constitution allows for the Government to tax for any purpose. It makes great sense that the Government should have to get our approval, before they spend money on funding decades long chain wars, bailing out banks, building and/ or securing foreign Governments or before they put money, in energy technology, there is no significant demand for? Why should American Idol be more democratic, than the USA? We can pull this off, with current technology, too. I have thought about suggesting it here, myself. I am glad that you beat me to it. You saved me a lot of typing! [wink] S! MJ

Terrific! I recommend you ignore me. You've already got your 501c so I'm not sure what you are babbling about.

Its only a matter time before US media outlets, radio, tv, online, bloggers, etc, start digging into the foreign leadership of this movement, and their backgrounds. At that point, the 70% of American's who haven't made up their minds as to whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, will side in on bad. The other 30% will splinter, and the remainder will resort to other tactics to generate attention.

I know it seems new to you, but seriously, this country has been there and done that(as usual). Bugger off.

yup, only a matter of time before you cracked and resorted to foul language.

My great grandfather, his two older brothers fought in Civil war for the North. The oldest brother was killed. The next fought and survived. The youngest, my Great Grandfather trained but never saw action.

The two brothers headed west. The older was a deputy sheriff in a mining town, got killed in a gun fight...my Dad has his pocket watch.

My Greatgrandfather then saw the goldfields of Alaska then was the guide on a Smithsonian expedition, in the history books, my last name.

Grandpa was a Srgt. in Army during second, his nic name was Sergeant Yo-Yo cause he was always gettin busted for smacking out officers who were teaching the men ways that would get them killed in combat, and then being re-promoted back to Master by higher rank.

I dont like the British cause their Opium/Heroin Dealers and their banks are central to the money laundering...and I find the Canadians..ya, stupid about much..cause that is the way the Brits like to keep their Colonials.

not sure i get your comment...all we are saying here is..we need a robust full blown system that we can manage the affairs of a nation.

AND

If we are not putting up Candidates, identifying Issues, Developing and Debating Solutions, and voting them up to be the public mandate..then we, and I mean, any individual not prepared to fully engage in that process....

...should be sat down and asked what they really want...cause if they are not ready to pick up the shovel of democracy and start digging the way out of this mess we got into...they are waiting for mommy and daddy to fix it for them...or asking for a tyranny.

Small group oral direct democracy..if you can call it that...is cool, froody, and a useful tool for small groups...but not what we need if fixing the country in a peaceful organized manner is the ACTUAL goal.

We need a real tool, a high tech tool for our high tech society..so everyone, even the smallest voice..can post an Issue or a Solution, and..run for office no cash cost... that eliminates the money too....

That exists in Indonesia. Each voter has a special ticket he can give to someone else if he wants. The result is some parties organize lotteries. Voters give their tickets to the party in exchange for a lottery number and a chance to win a big prize. This way, the party gets to cast all the votes for itself. In villages, parties will often go around and pay farmers a few dollars for their ticket. The system works out very well for the parties who can afford to spend a few bucks in the purchase of votes.

well ... that is the real problem... I have been studying this since 2004... it still seems that there must also be a physical element in place... I'll keep you posted if anyone comes up with a good answer.. ;)

The thing is, to get off the ground, we cannot leverage that existing gov structure...

The easy surest way is to require a credit card/debit card transaction from early members, and small amount, and it can go into the kitty.......allows an open transparent accounting process to be shown....and we can issue/solution/ what to do with the money

let the banks verify who and where from, and we...make those banks work to our purpose...

The other option we came up with is using Library card numbers. We checked on it though, and sometimes bar codes get repeated across the country in Libraries and it already causes some issues with online database services that many Libraries subscribe to...we checked into it.

But, it could be used to start, get people down to the Library gettin cards and talking, and on those cases where there is a duplicate and someone is also registering it, we could have an admin adjust it.....but thats tooo much trouble..

The final solution is to use the voter registry numbers of each individual with their state letters prefixed ie CA13456788990 this would avoid duplicates in the database

right, but initially the goal has to be to get people up on the Issue Solution system and posting Candidates....

It can be set so that at a level in the permissions is withheld, no access until verified, before voting on final ballots.

Can still participate in discussions.

Or. ask for several forms of ID. Just remember, when starting out, it keeps adding barriers to people getting involved...somewhere there is a balance.

Lets face it, even the Feds have a hard time ID everyone...

so if soliciting public involvement means having a fool proof way of IDing..better than the Feds...... before people are going to start using an Issue /Solution process...this country needs to collapse...in an argument.

Your bad grammatical skills and questionable talent in expression do not help the image of your company. It might be best for UPonLocal if you deleted your posts. Again, it's fairly obvious you are not a programmer.

I can only propose you use another system than Drupal at the moment. Unfortunately, I have too many programming projects on my table to contribute any code at the moment. As far as I'm concerned, Kohana is an excellent and clean system if you are doing PHP, Drupal is slow and not much fun to program in and it doesn't scale very well.

I don't care about the source code or a SSN or a unique identifier - when citizens are voting and shaping the lives of others it can ONLY be done under FULL LEGAL NAMES (official .gov site running OS software) so any person can see their name and how they voted or others and ENTIRE voting history and comments (or any programmer can run any app or write an app to count/verify quickly). Just as congress people are currently required to do. For general comments, anonymous is fine (and necessary) but no voting powers.

This is 100% Transparency - even 1% less and it will just become a HUGE magnet to be hijacked.

Drupal is not secure enough for this type of project. You need to build something ground up so no one sees the source. Then you need to call in security experts to check the code and servers. You'll then need to get the government and lawyers involved to make sure you cover your asses in case the system is hacked. This is serious stuff. Iv'e been programming for years. I'm telling you, you must drop Drupal.

nah, you are not correct at all,...... ignore this folks, Major websites run this software globally...it is type argument that will be proffered up all the time that we need experts... his suggestion that no one see source is excatly OPPOSITE of what the court testimony reveals.

Wahtch out for guys like this, their arguments are just a way of trying to stall of anyone from voting on other than the "experts hidden code system"

Whitehouse.gov re-launches on Drupal and engages the Drupal community at DC users meeting
Posted by Amazon on November 18, 2009 at 10:23pm

whitehouse.gov

Earlier this month, the Executive Office of the President of the United States of America relaunched their website, Whitehouse.gov, using Drupal. This week three members of the White House new media team presented at the Washington, DC Drupal users group. New media director Macon Phillips, deputy director of technology David Cole, and creative director Nik Lo Bue talked about their use of Drupal.

I have too many projects at the moment to invest time in another one. I would probably contribute here and there if you used Kohana, another clean and tight Framework, or "pure" PHP, but I would not be interested in coding with Drupal as it is slow, not fun to code in, and doesn't scale very well.

Whitehouse.gov re-launches on Drupal and engages the Drupal community at DC users meeting Posted by Amazon on November 18, 2009 at 10:23pm

whitehouse.gov

Earlier this month, the Executive Office of the President of the United States of America relaunched their website, Whitehouse.gov, using Drupal. This week three members of the White House new media team presented at the Washington, DC Drupal users group. New media director Macon Phillips, deputy director of technology David Cole, and creative director Nik Lo Bue talked about their use of Drupal.

I'm not a programmer, and know Drupal in name only, but love using Canonical OS/Ubuntu - is it perfect? Absolutely not! Some stupid quirks I hate (and don't get me started in Unity...) but, OS is the strongest possible solution out there given there will never be a perfect or 100% secure system. What there can be is a system that is constantly worked on 24/7/360 - or the necessary vigilance that Democracy requires (much easier to win a Democracy than maintain one).

OK, I was confused because you are talking about an OS and we are talking about Drupal which is a CMS.

I should have been clearer. I don't mean the project should not be open source. The solution I was proposing, Kohana, is open source. What I meant is that Drupal is a widely used CMS with a widely used set of modules and there are many spam bots and hack bots already programmed for it. This is the same problem that plagued PHPBB forums a few years back.

And, because Drupal is a CMS, it's not as flexible as using a tight and small Framework like Kohana, or simply programming in pure PHP. Drupal is great when you want to setup a site quickly with no or few alterations, it becomes a nightmare when you want to develop something which differs greatly from the original implementation. You'll have all kinds of scaling problems in the future and your site will be bloated and slow like a snail. Essentially, Drupal is not for programmers as much as for people who know only a little programming. Programmers hate that type of stuff. It limits them.

In any case, it was a simple suggestion. I'm sure you already did your homework, so best you forget what i said. Your friend certainly doesn't seem interested in suggestions.

With your attitude, I'm afraid you'll have a hard time finding serious programmers who want to work with you. I simply offered the advice that it would be wiser to use Kohana which is a programming Framework instead of Drupal which is a CMS for your project. If you are not accepting criticism, simply move on. What's the point of going bonkers and leaving badly written messages that make you look like a fifteen year old? If you are the face of UPonLocal, I pity them.

you keep overlooking the point of the Court testimony...cause you havent watched it.

Dupal is the only system now out there with the type modules built.... stock.

And you are so way off when you talked about keeping it closed..cause again, you have not watched the court testimony video.

It cannot be coded up. needs to work on common software....that anyone can download and make work....

And, you have not fully examined what is there and working on the site, before leveling off criticisms.

B/C regardless of page load times, it works

so, get involved, and again, outline a issue/solution and show us the better way, we all want it.

I am running a business right now, and still find the time to type fast here, answer phone, and work on..projects..so get to work man or lay off or post a solution that is fully developed and worked out, like we did...

If you're only using stock modules, then you don't need a programmer so I don't see why you would need me to get involved. About the open source issue, please read my clarification above in my reply to michael. If you think Drupal is the only system with stock modules, then you certainly didn't do much research.

BTW - Don't use Ruby on Rails, it's slow and a drag to install. Ruby is a beautiful language, but I don't feel it's worth it.

"It cannot be coded up. needs to work on common software....that anyone can download and make work...."

I don't understand this. If you code something ground up, the point is for users to be able to download it and make it work.

LOL. Apart from the corruption of the representatives, that is pretty much what we have. The People's veto is called voting. Stop donating to the politicians and repetitively voting the D or the R, and there you go.
Also repeal of the 17th Amendment would be a great start . Senators don't care about the people anyways.

So you support a pure democracy? Would you have supported a direct democracy in 2010? There would have been tons of anti abortion bills, bills ending medicare, ending social security, etc. Would you have been happy with the result considering it was a widespread conservative victory?
Democracy is 51% of the people ruling over the other 49%. It is not a stable form of government.

why automatically 51% ?? There can be many levels depending on the weight of the issue and how many individuals it affects. Once again, this will only POLARIZE people.

Neither D.D. nor Rep. Form of Gov is perfect - the answer is in the MIDDLE ground, but not as this poster described (the 'rep' is redundant, no need for a paid button pusher, or bribe taker, i.e. bottleneck). Rather, mitigate 'armchair coaches' (i.e. mob rule) who comment on everything but know little in depth about anything by giving them slightly less voting weight and those who know significantly more about issues and can knowledgeably present both pro's/con's about a subject. Who gives weightings? All of us on the internet, openly. Much better than term limits, you have to consistently prove yourself.

I would happily even agree to giving certain individuals a very high vote weighting because they have (and continue) to prove openly on the internet balanced pro's/con's that are truly in most people's interests (i.e. you can please most of the people most of the time...)

But really, most important, is two governments: core and not-core.
Core is absolutely minimal necessary (i.e. taxes and size) to run the country
Non-Core is anything and everything else - up to 100% taxes for up to 100% government provided services.

Because even in a D.D. it will be impossible to find consensus on SO MANY ISSUES among a melting pot of the world of 310mn people. And that is it's GREATEST strength:
DIVERSITY - a double edged sword that can ONLY be unlocked with FLEXIBILITY.

Democracy is a 'careful what you wish' for thing. A republic is truly the best form of government. The alternative is an oligarchy. People are angry because we have moved away from our Republic and the oligarchy is arising. Replacing the republic with something else is the wrong way to go.
It would be better to place amendments on the ballot to severely punish corrupt politicians, limit the powers of the parties, set real campaign finance reform, and limit lobbying powers. All of those could be done without destroying our system.
Why the OWS is misdirected. There is no real plan, but the easiest one, with the highest chance of success is one that benefits everyone equally.
The Constitution is flawed in that it does not put limits on the government, and some of their powers are vague. We should not let politicians decide how they do things. That should be determined by the citizens, and we have never done that.

I told you. Popular Constitutional amendments in every state. If the citizens passed amendments limiting federal powers in all states, do you really thing the legislatures and the Congress would refuse to pass them? That would be their death sentence, people would drag them out into the streets and tar and feather them.
I have been pitching this idea for years, you just need some cooperative lawyers to write the legislation and volunteers to get the signatures on the ballot, and some donors to support the movement.
If they are truly popular amendments, that benefit everyone equally, they will pass with massive support.

I appreciate you having an open mind. The next revolution should be at the ballot and in the courts. People need to reject the two parties strangle hold. We existed for decades in a republic and people were very happy with it. When government and Wall street start to collude against us, people get angry. Has nothing to do with our form of government, but simply corruption.

yeah.. but what can we do to insure that corruption doesn't repeat itself over and over again... being able to overturn a representatives vote thru People Assembly (People's Veto) .. could do that .. no?

The Republic and the Oligarchy are the only two forms of real government. Democracy is a transitory period between them. I worry about this call for democracy as i think it will lead us further down the road toward the Oligarchy. A dictatorship and Anarchy are merely illusions.

In Direct Democracy...we stay on top it all the time...a continuous process...and a Recall System...they do not get 4 years to lie...we see them as liars and not respecting the Mandate..they get recalled.

We have a single database to track them...not newspapers and campain clips...a living record...we hold them accountable to it

Rigged voting machines have nothing to do with either direct or representative democracies. It is an accusation that would be equally applicable to either system. Do you have some proof the machines are rigged? Do you have some ideas on how to make them better?

We can have high school classes checking the code..you know the constitution, know the source code that protects it..live source code monitoring..just need qualified volunteers.

This will guarantee, that the peoples voice and will is established on clear record.

Watch the court testimony video.....whomever made it points out that all the big network cameras were in there..and yet..nobody hardly knows this and there are very few print articles on it....should have made major network news.

This was the bomb folks and they keep it hidden as much as possible....

This is why we think the OWS GA Direct Democracy may be a planned distraction so people do not add up what is happening and the one way to prevent it.

Change the voting system...and by golly........you just changed the system..that elusive undefined "System" is merely the voting system...

The guy who wrote the software, that was used in Ohio2004 is on video testifying, how it was done and how to prevent it:

You are aware that every district uses their own voting machines, right? Voter fraud was been commonplace long before the Mob and the Unions bussed people in to "Vote Eary and Vote Often". Your allegation was more of a conspiracy theory that some unified force had all the votes rigged to go a certain way, which obviously your video provides zero proof of.

We can have high school classes checking the code..you know the constitution, know the source code that protects it..live source code monitoring..just need qualified volunteers.This will guarantee, that the peoples voice and will is established on clear record.
Watche the court testimony video.whoever made it points out that all the big network cameras were in there..and yet..nobody hardly knows this and there are very few print articles on it....

Lmao. What a wonderful idea for voter intimidation and introduction of additional fraud to the voting process, NONE OF WHICH has anything to do with a direct democracy.

Given your loose allegation of logical fallacy, without even stating what logical fallacy I am supposedly committing, I'll just assume you simply didn't have any answers to any of those points. Here are a few additional points.

Just because you operating a blog site does not make you an expert on the subject matter you talk about.

You need to present evidence to back your claims,whether those claims are of widespread voter fraud through computer software, or of logical fallacies. You failed on both counts

If you have a great idea for a voting system, you should go sell it to the districts country wide. They all make their own decisions on what type of voting system to use(No the federal government does not get to dictate this, and neither do you).

that is pure assumption, and as you say, nothing to back it. There was a study done, regarding the panopticon, and what was most for secure society..that suggested..we all need to be able to watch the watchers...and on that..more hands is better.

Keeping foreign influence out of US politics, for one. It was no different in the 1960s. Foreigners stirring up unrest is the achilles heel of any democratic society.

Fortunately, it is a sword that cuts two ways, especially in the internet information age. Kalle, Lisa, Danae, David, and the rest, are the definition of "Enemies foreign and domestic" we fight against, only here, information is power.

"central government should be able to dictate that" suggesting stuff and then answering it."

and your wrong, the goal here is to set up a 501. a board, volunteers..no dictating as you suggest.

your one of those guys...

And that folks, is coming from a bonafide Frogman...MikeyD, your a trouble maker.

My last year high school was livin at the home of the man that pulled Ham the chimp out of the seat after splash down. It bit him up too.. If he were alive today, he would teach you a swift lesson for sure..

Now it makes sense. You aren't an American, so you haven't the foggiest how we do things here. Let me explain. On this side of the pond, we don't have a single voting system, nor do we want one or need one. On this side of the pond, we feel that local government is best, and centralized government leads to tyranny. Thats why central government doesn't dictate what voting systems we must use in our local communities.

I understand that you feel there should be a single voting system, and that you probably feel the central government should be able to dictate that, like i to does so many other things, but most of us here are not fans, so click your heels three times, dorthy, and wish on a star.

I never said we should stop trying to end voter corruption.

What I said was that fixing problems with central computer based voting systems is fixing a problem on a thing that doesn't exist in this country. What I said was that your solution to a problem that doesn't exist is to create a new thing, more prone to fraud than the old by means of central govern authoritarian mandate.

Regarding my use of an Ad Hom, when you provide links to your own website as "Evidence" of any claim, you are claiming to be an expert. I didn't follow the link because I don't consider you an expert, and pointing out that fact is not an Ad Hom. If you have a video link from a credible source, I'd be more than happy to review it.

You'll have to forgive me for bundling words like "Genius" into my posts, which are arrogant, sarcastic, and most definitely in attack of the man (Ad hom). Note they follow a logically presented argument and are not the argument themselves, once again making your claims of logical fallacy meaningless. I tend to get sarcastic and cutting when Brits and people unfamiliar with the American electoral process start handing out advice they hope people will follow.

After that job, Expo 86 was on, and I went up there. Stayed for a year, worked see urchin harvesting off the Island. In spring 87 I was livin in a rented room with 4 other guys....2 were bilboard artists ( re make overs!) with a guy from Europe as their leader...l asked to meet him....they would have secret meetings each week or when the guy called them...

I was told stay away or I would get hurt..they dont like Americans....

That was Kalle....

I dated a chic who knew him...asked her for an intro...she sais..."no way, that guy dont want to meet you, I aint going to be the one that does...

So I asked for a description...and got that at least.

In 91, ..a person..came to my home..and knew my woman, and asked us to sponsor her to travel to Europe...we had first copy Adbusters..she told my woman and me it was a plan to create a global org and call a revolution one day.

Hey I'm for that, right?

I sponsored it..her...for over a year...when I stopped..I got all sorts of calls from Adbusters..till I firmly told them no...

And this OWS is obviously that thing she told us about....

Hows that for gettin around and doin the work of an America...?

I dont really have anything against this OWS other than...they are not getting anything done.

What rebels come to the table without a voting system, a shadow government..something tangible...say a list of demands ..or even a polling tool to get an idea.

I rebuilt your Coast Guard Island Bridge in 86, lived in Alameda for duration of job. worked for Saber Zell of Seaworks Contruction, I was a full Journeyman at Local in Oakland making 44 an hour at age 19...

We replaced fixed all the wooden pilings, applied vinyl raps on some and wrapped concrete casings around others.

My Dad used to work for CIA, he was an SOG man in 64-65...and taught me what a bunch of rotten drug dealers they are since I was a kid.