You may well be right, but it kind of doesn't matter. The kinkiest person I know started having those feelings at 4 years old. The actual cause, if there is one, is pretty much irrelevant to him as an adult.

Can I ask what kind of feelings?

I think it does matter in the nature of this particular story, perhaps not with your friend. The reasoning being used here is that Nora and Michael would have had the desire to feel pain as related to sex from the moment they were born and all the grown ups are doing in this case (Nora and Soren) are helping them to accept this side of themselves, while playing the part of a sexual mentor. The message is more than 'born this way', it's also that its ok to use them this way. To me this just seems a little too convenient to excuse their behavior, a little bit like them playing God, molding and shaping them while using them for their own sexual pleasure. They are the younger and more vulnerable and impressionable. Perhaps if they were not also getting sexual pleasure out of it I might feel differently, I don't know. It all seems very manipulative to me, predatory.

I thought Nora coming across Soren planting the fast growing trees for privacy when she was 15 was chilling, along the byplay of their conversation.

Blood play - please tell me there is no more of this outside of that one passage?

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

(I'd rather not get into specifics about someone else, he is a sub with a particular fetish that goes way, way back.)

I think what it comes down to is this is literature and Michael is someone else's creation. She has created him as a particular kind of person and she should know what he's like.

But I agree with you that the adults are being predatory, even if Michael doesn't feel that they are. Perhaps this is where my knowledge of kink falls down, but I don't see why a teenaged boy needs to be "trained" by adults no matter what his inclinations are.

And again, this may be lack of understanding on my part, but Nora doesn't seem to actually enjoy much of what Soren does to her. I don't enjoy reading about someone getting beat up and cut anyway, but when they're actively dreading it and hurting... shouldn't masochism be more *enjoyable* for the masochist?_________________"'Happily ever after, or even just together ever after, is not cheesy,' Wren said. 'It's the noblest, like, the most courageous thing two people can shoot for.'" -- Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell

Thanks all for your insights on this book.
The first time I heard about this book was in an email from Harlequin. What's intriguing is that it was advertised as better than Fifty Shades trilogy. After reading these posts I can say it may be more disturbing than Fifty Shades.

It's 100 X more disturbing than Fifty Shades. IMHO. The writing is more polished but there's also a distance there between me and the story that I didn't feel with Fifty, the characters are less likable. So calling it 'better' really depends on what you're looking for. I had a smile on my face while reading Fifty, I cringed as I read The Siren. They're very different books. As a reader Fifty was more enjoyable for sure but The Siren has it's own merits.

I think it's wrong for the publisher to pit them against each other, readers that really loved Fifty are going to roll their eyes at the statement that it's better (I know I did) and I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a book for the same readers that enjoyed FSoG. The Siren isn't a sexy read and I would be hard pressed to call it a love story, at least not yet. It's more like straight fiction.

Linda

And I might have read The Siren and been very disappointed. An older heroine have relations with a teen would have had me completely turned off. Thank goodness I waited for discussions like this.

I wonder if this series will have a HEA?

Well, both The Siren and The Angel have HEAs for certain characters - just not for Nora.

[
And I might have read The Siren and been very disappointed. An older heroine have relations with a teen would have had me completely turned off. Thank goodness I waited for discussions like this.

I wonder if this series will have a HEA?

I would like to see some redeeming of themselves before a HEA comes into play. I've just started The Angel and on page 11 Nora is thinking of Michael, the boy she had sex with at 15 - "She smiled at the memory of Soren's anniversary gift to her last year: the virginity of possibly the prettiest teenage boy in the known world. "

I've been thinking of the nature vs nurture in the 'kinky sex' dept, though kinky seems a light word for the levels of pain that goes on between them. I don't think kinky sex is instinctual as it's compared to being attracted to someone of the same sex in a homosexual. That said, how adults chose to play out their sexuality should be their choice, as long as it's consenting. Adult being key. A mentally fragile 15 year old virgin does not fall into that category. He's become prey and a sexual plaything. I think Nora is going to be 'training' him during this book, if some of the reviews I've read are correct. To steal an expression from Judy, I may have to safeword out!

Side note - when peeking in at the Potpourri Forum there's a post titled 'Tortured Romances', shows where my mind is at with this book that I thought it said 'torture romances' and The Siren came to mind!

Linda

After reading the insights of posters on The Siren I wouldn't call this a romance.

A bit ot, I notice heroines becoming more antiHeroine of late. A historical reviewed here had a heroine having an affair with a married man not the hero. And ofcourse all the Kristen Ashley heroines with their backup guys!

The Siren is definitely not a romance. I'm not sure it's erotica either, though I guess that could depend on your tastes/definition._________________"'Happily ever after, or even just together ever after, is not cheesy,' Wren said. 'It's the noblest, like, the most courageous thing two people can shoot for.'" -- Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell

(I'd rather not get into specifics about someone else, he is a sub with a particular fetish that goes way, way back.)

I think what it comes down to is this is literature and Michael is someone else's creation. She has created him as a particular kind of person and she should know what he's like.

willaful, fair enough on your friend, I was just curious as to what kind of sexual fetish would manifest itself at such a young age, most kids are not aware sexually so young. Or maybe you mean a fetish not sexually related at that point.

On Michael, yes the author created him as a particular kind of person but as I mentioned, it seems a little too convenient to the storyline. It's like she's saying..hey my characters are doing bad things but it's ok because Michael and Nora would have been like that anyway. It disturbs me. *shrug* I have a 16 year old son so it i hits close to home.

Quote:

But I agree with you that the adults are being predatory, even if Michael doesn't feel that they are. Perhaps this is where my knowledge of kink falls down, but I don't see why a teenaged boy needs to be "trained" by adults no matter what his inclinations are.

That's just it, these sexual D/s games are man created and the ways in which they dream up to hurt each other and be hurt. I suppose they need to be trained in order to learn to 'safely' hurt each other and better Soren a willing partner for how he enjoys to use his knife than an unwilling victim. Still, I have a hard time accepting this all as an instinct they were born with. The author also makes reference to Soren, Michael and Nora all having parenting issues which further confuses the matter.

Quote:

And again, this may be lack of understanding on my part, but Nora doesn't seem to actually enjoy much of what Soren does to her. I don't enjoy reading about someone getting beat up and cut anyway, but when they're actively dreading it and hurting... shouldn't masochism be more *enjoyable* for the masochist?

I'm confused about it, she jokes about liking pain but in some of the actual scenes it seems more that she's putting up with it to please Soren. Has she allowed anyone else to hurt her as she does Soren? I can't recall at this moment.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

[Man she does need a hobby or volunteering or something to round out her experiences. I just didn't see it in comparison to say Soren's round life. And it would be Soren's fault in the beginning because he wanted her isolated or she wouldn't of been.

Right! There is a point in The Siren after Nora tries to have vanilla sex with Wesley and he says to her, it isn't who you are, it's just what you do. Nora replies that it's what writes her books and makes her, it is the only thing she has of value. For character growth I would like to see Nora learn more of what she has of value that isn't related to sex, not just sex but only one sided view of sex - from a D/s standpoint. Her relationship with Soren isn't a normal one of companionship, she's mentioned she can't even walk down the street holding hands with him unless they are out of country. The D/s thing isn't something that they just do in the bedroom, it defines their entire relationship.

There is a whole world going on around Nora that doesn't center around D/s, pain - giving and receiving. She should go out and discover some of it. Even when she left Soren it still consumed her.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

Based on the kinky people I know, I'd have to disagree -- I think it's as much a part of them as a gender preference. There's a line in The Siren which I very much agree with, something like "A fetish is either the pet you feed or the beast that eats you."

Not talking about people who just mildly enjoy being spanked now and then, of course. But I think it's very clear that Nora et.al. are of the other variety.

Agree!! this is my experience as well.

And on the same vain, without reading through all the new posts. In my experience and that of my friends that are in the business of abused children, children that are abused it happens in such a profound way that like E.L James said on Katie comparing Ana & Christians relationship to abused women is insulting to really abused women. So, although I am not encouraging what is going on with Michael, I see it as grey, and not in the same class as what I know happens to children of abuse. I don't want to get to deep into this but I just see a huge difference between a 15 or 17 year old almost adult and a child.

And on the same vain, without reading through all the new posts. In my experience and that of my friends that are in the business of abused children, children that are abused it happens in such a profound way that like E.L James said on Katie comparing Ana & Christians relationship to abused women is insulting to really abused women.

Yes, but a more apt comparison between Fifty Shades and The Siren would be what Elena did with Christian. The relationship between Christian and Ana is between consenting adults. Through this Ana shows Christian another side of life and of sexual pleasure, it doesn't have to be only what Elena taught him and Christian is able for once to see things in a different light, without Elena's influence.

ETA: And actually the more I think on it the more I see other similarities between Elena and Soren. Both are 'forbidden' from their relationship going public, Elena because she was married and Soren because he is a priest. Both have almost the same talk when they realize their prodigy has feelings for someone that's 'vanilla', Ana and Wesley. They both tell them that it will never work because that's not who they are, they have to bring them into the lifestyle or set them free. Both are trying to exercise control with the reasoning that *they* know best. The thing is, this may be all they know from Soren and Elena but it doesn't mean that's all there can ever be for Christian, Nora and Michael.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

There is going to be a fourth book in the series with the title "The Mistress", and the upcoming "The Prince" will end with a big nasty cliffhanger.

I think Nora and Soren are endgame from all the info I have been piecing together. Since Wesley is my favorite I am really worried about what's going to happen with him. Soren and Nora can take care of themselves. But Wes is young and vulnerable and with his diabetes too much stress is dangerous. Sigh. I am way too concerned about this character. Maybe that's because while Nora and Soren come across as larger than life Wesley of all the characters in this series seems most like a real person to me.

There is going to be a fourth book in the series with the title "The Mistress", and the upcoming "The Prince" will end with a big nasty cliffhanger.

I think Nora and Soren are endgame from all the info I have been piecing together. Since Wesley is my favorite I am really worried about what's going to happen with him. Soren and Nora can take care of themselves. But Wes is young and vulnerable and with his diabetes too much stress is dangerous. Sigh. I am way too concerned about this character. Maybe that's because while Nora and Soren come across as larger than life Wesley of all the characters in this series seems most like a real person to me.

I've always assumed Nora would end up with Soren as the HEA but it wouldn't be the ending I would choose.

Wesley is my favorite character as well and hopefully he will get his HEA as well, with or without Nora. Though if they keep adding books that may stretch out a bit. I am missing him in The Angel, at about halfway through he hasn't shown up yet. For me I would prefer him not with Nora because I think he deserves more but sometimes what the heart wants is what it wants.

Reading her interview reinforces what I had thought while reading the books, the author truly sees nothing wrong with their actions. I kinda figured as she gives them reason to excuse their own actions in the books. I was hoping for some self realization for the characters, some redemption but it doesn't look like that's in the cards.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

There is going to be a fourth book in the series with the title "The Mistress", and the upcoming "The Prince" will end with a big nasty cliffhanger.

I think Nora and Soren are endgame from all the info I have been piecing together. Since Wesley is my favorite I am really worried about what's going to happen with him. Soren and Nora can take care of themselves. But Wes is young and vulnerable and with his diabetes too much stress is dangerous. Sigh. I am way too concerned about this character. Maybe that's because while Nora and Soren come across as larger than life Wesley of all the characters in this series seems most like a real person to me.

I've always assumed Nora would end up with Soren as the HEA but it wouldn't be the ending I would choose.

Wesley is my favorite character as well and hopefully he will get his HEA as well, with or without Nora. Though if they keep adding books that may stretch out a bit. I am missing him in The Angel, at about halfway through he hasn't shown up yet. For me I would prefer him not with Nora because I think he deserves more but sometimes what the heart wants is what it wants.

Reading her interview reinforces what I had thought while reading the books, the author truly sees nothing wrong with their actions. I kinda figured as she gives them reason to excuse their own actions in the books. I was hoping for some self realization for the characters, some redemption but it doesn't look like that's in the cards.

Linda

From what I remember of my psychology studies hardcore BDSM folks don't change - especially not sadists like Soren. I wouldn't actually believe it if Soren all of a sudden stopped being a sadist.

But using the same reasoning if Wesley - who is as vanilla as they come - ends up in the life style I'll cry foul as well.

I was just curious as to what kind of sexual fetish would manifest itself at such a young age, most kids are not aware sexually so young. Or maybe you mean a fetish not sexually related at that point.

Yes - I asked and he says it didn't have a sexual component until he was 8 or 9._________________"'Happily ever after, or even just together ever after, is not cheesy,' Wren said. 'It's the noblest, like, the most courageous thing two people can shoot for.'" -- Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell

[From what I remember of my psychology studies hardcore BDSM folks don't change - especially not sadists like Soren. I wouldn't actually believe it if Soren all of a sudden stopped being a sadist.

But using the same reasoning if Wesley - who is as vanilla as they come - ends up in the life style I'll cry foul as well.

I'm not sure Nora is hardcore though, as much as she seems that way, it may be just what she's used to since her only sexual experience has been with Soren and the world in which he inhabits. There's been no indication so far that she had feelings of wanting to receive or deliver pain as a child, only that her parents were not very good and she got into trouble. She even hints in The Angel that the fact she can't do vanilla sex may just be something she's telling herself. If she did end up with Wesley I could believe that he'd get into light bdsm play as many vanilla couples do for fun and there could be a 'meeting in the middle' there.

Soren, I agree there would be no changing him and I'm getting the dreaded feeling that there was something that happened with his sister that may have lead to this. Please do not let it be so, I really don't think I can take any type of incest on top of everything else that's been thrown into this book.

As much as we're talking back and forth that bdsm is something you may be born with, or not, every character so far that's into it in this book has had some kind of f-ed up childhood.

I have to skim through the scenes of Nora 'training' Michael, they are repulsive to me. The character of Suzanne though is kind of making me laugh, the tough war zone reporter that crumbles with lust in the presence of Soren. Though I had to do an eye roll when she saw the bruises he left on her wrists and liked them, a little too convenient to the storyline.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

Last edited by Linda in sw va on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total