ecmoRandomNumbers:How 'bout we try getting global population to a sustainable level? There are about 4 billion surplus people on this planet. I'm not saying I'm not one of them.

And yet there are entire cities that can hold millions sitting empty in China. The world is a big place, and with some tweaks to make our energy and food production more sustainable we can probably maintain our current population without a ton of effort. It just takes the will to make the necessary changes in lifestyle.

Canton:Yeah, I would not be a good mother. I know it. The instincts are there, sort of, but they're not enough. Sometimes I do feel guilty about not providing my parents with grandkids, but then I remember that they seem pretty accepting of that.

So... No kids? No big deal. It's not like humanity is on the verge of extinction, or anything.

I don't even feed my cats on time, no way would children be safe in my household.

/sorry honey, get your own food//mommy's raiding/gardening/watching a movie/reading a book

Just what the world needs...another person.Average cost to raise a child: $241,000 You either have to be wealthy or on welfare to be able to afford that luxury. For your typical US taxpayer, children are a privilage that isn't in our salary grade.

Got kids. Happy with them. Lots of friends have kids. Lots of friends don't. Its not for everybody. I'm a firm believer in the general principle that "If you don't want it, then you can't have any." If you don't want children, you should not have them. If people want 'em, great. If not, cool.

ladyfortuna:Canton: Yeah, I would not be a good mother. I know it. The instincts are there, sort of, but they're not enough. Sometimes I do feel guilty about not providing my parents with grandkids, but then I remember that they seem pretty accepting of that.

So... No kids? No big deal. It's not like humanity is on the verge of extinction, or anything.

I don't even feed my cats on time, no way would children be safe in my household.

/sorry honey, get your own food//mommy's raiding/gardening/watching a movie/reading a book

I get that. I struggled to keep a consistent schedule with my bottle lambs this summer. I love them very much, but I also get distracted so ridiculously easily. Luckily, lambs and cats are pretty resilient. And forgiving. Mostly.

docilej:Average cost to raise a child: $241,000 You either have to be wealthy or on welfare to be able to afford that luxury. For your typical US taxpayer, children are a privilage that isn't in our salary grade.

Oh, come on, you don't actually believe that number, do you. That's how much you need to spend for a pre-defined middle class life, yes. But, as of two years ago, the majority of kids born in the US were born under the Medicaid system. Do you know how poor you have to be to qualify for Medicaid? Even as a single mother?

Yes, tens of thousands of people go from having a kid on Medicaid to spending over $10k/year/child. Most don't come anywhere near that.

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier:Ideal number is 2 or 3 kids for a couple in a developed country. Replace yourself and your spouse and maybe have one more for good measure/replace the kids who die before procreating (drown, sick, poisoned, etc).Breeding like rabbits, while fun, is what's done in the third world because 2/3 of those kids will die before procreating.

I'm not sure about that. If you think, if the population is declining, not sue to stress but merely due to low birth rates, then as time goes on, society needs to provide less everything as time goes on. Family and societal wealth concentrates from one generation to the next instead of dissipating.

The reason corporate, religious and political leaders don't like it, is because a declining population means there is no 'stupid growth'. Such as next year we will need 2% more drywall because the population is increasing. It's easy to become wealthy on the back of stupid growth because all you need to control, otherwise there is little risk or hard work involved.

If we stopped treating children like property and instead recognized them as full-fledged citizens in their own right, with their own claim to societal resources, this wouldn't be a problem. Assisting in child rearing is something that everyone would do by paying taxes in working in child-support jobs and volunteer positions. But as it stands we hold at most 2 people responsible for essentially 100% of each child's rearing tasks and expenses and we teach parents to refuse help from others on the basis of insufficient genetic relationship.

Canton:Yeah, I would not be a good mother. I know it. The instincts are there, sort of, but they're not enough. Sometimes I do feel guilty about not providing my parents with grandkids, but then I remember that they seem pretty accepting of that.

So... No kids? No big deal. It's not like humanity is on the verge of extinction, or anything.

Married, no children. I didn't enjoy my childhood, I spent the first 17 years of my life alternating between dysthymia and clinical depression, with the following eight years between drug addiction and drug therapy. My father had Parkinson's, his father also. If there is a genetic link to these disorders I would rather not pass it on. This far and no farther.

I'm happy now, I have been for quite a few years. I don't need drugs anymore, and I don't think it would be good for me or any theoretical progeny for me to pass my genes on.

In past generations video games did not exist in childhood. This comparison is pants-on-head ridiculous.

Both child and adults sing and dance for entertainment and have for generations. Is singing "childish" or "selfish"?

lostcat:Our childhoods have extended way beyond what previous generations were able to get away with.

No one is "getting away" with childhood. Until you reach the age of majority you have no legal influence over any significant of your life and you could be stuck with caretakers that are truly terrible toward you. Beyond that everyone is generally making the decisions they think are best given their personal values, knowledge, and perception. In pervious generations those "adult" decisions included things like chain smoking and segregation -- it's not clear to me how today's "extended childhood" (whatever the hell that means) is a worse outcome.

pla:Feel bad? Why the hell would this make me feel bad? If anything, it justifies my decision to remain free of any parasites that incubate for 18+ years.

I can spend my money how I want, spend my free time how I want, sleep in on weekends, collect things without someone (like me as a child - A real terror!) breaking/burning/burying them... I occasionally need to sand and repaint the bannister that the cats (only two, not a "crazy cat person") have decided to use as a scratching post, but no big deal, and at least they show little interest (unlike me has a child) in my power tools.

And Omaha World Herald just pointed out that a steadily increasing number of others in our massively overpopulated world have made the same decision. Why should I feel bad again?

/ W00t! DINKs FTW, baby!

When you're old and dependent on the next generation of workers to provide for your care, just remember you called them "parasites," and try to appreciate the irony before you die. Alone.

lostcat:Didn't make it through the article. Don't really care what some columnist in Omaha thinks.

I can understand people in my own generation (and younger) not wanting to have kids. We're all pretty self-centered (can't think of a way to say that that doesn't sound negative, but there you have it). Our childhoods have extended way beyond what previous generations were able to get away with. Video games are the norm for people in their 20s and 30s (I'm in my 40s, and I've spent a solid part of this weekend playing Ingress and Baldur's Gate).

So, why would we want to have to put up with mewling, crying, attention-needing kids? I never wanted a kid, even through my mid 30s. Too much hassle. Too much responsibility. Not enough me time. Not enough time/energy for good sex. Who needs that?

But then I was talking to a neighbor who is in her 60s. Her mother died recently, and she has no husband or children. She looks miserable most of the time I see her. She says that there is nobody left in the world who cares if she lives or dies. She said she never expected that feeling. But now that she has no living family, she feels like a stranger on the planet.

I look at my parents. They are just breaking 70. Their brothers and sisters are dropping like flies. All they have left is me and my sister to care about them, visit them and give them any emotional support.

So, while I understand my friends and peers who think having kids is crazy, I don't know how many of them have really, honestly thought about the end of their lives (who spends time dwelling that anyway?) and considered what this world will feel like when everyone they love is dead, and they have no family left on the face of the earth.

But then, but the time we're that old, Diablo 12 is going to keep your mind off of all that crap, I'm betting.

DreamyAltarBoy:Married, no children. I didn't enjoy my childhood, I spent the first 17 years of my life alternating between dysthymia and clinical depression, with the following eight years between drug addiction and drug therapy. My father had Parkinson's, his father also. If there is a genetic link to these disorders I would rather not pass it on. This far and no farther.

I'm happy now, I have been for quite a few years. I don't need drugs anymore, and I don't think it would be good for me or any theoretical progeny for me to pass my genes on.

Yeah, I'm in agreement here. I have some bad genetic traits, and I've heard snippets of conversation leading me to believe I narrowly missed out on a few more (possibly meaning I'm a carrier). Until genetic manipulation becomes standard and not-ridiculously-expensive, I probably won't risk passing on defective genes to the next generation.

If we stopped treating children like property and instead recognized them as full-fledged citizens in their own right, with their own claim to societal resources, this wouldn't be a problem. Assisting in child rearing is something that everyone would do by paying taxes in working in child-support jobs and volunteer positions. But as it stands we hold at most 2 people responsible for essentially 100% of each child's rearing tasks and expenses and we teach parents to refuse help from others on the basis of insufficient genetic relationship.

Actually, in the U.S., big chunks of the federal and state tax codes (deductions and funding schools via property tax come to mind) are 1) dedicated to helping pay for kids, and 2) born by those WITHOUT kids.

Not complaining, just saying. Kids ARE important, but don't pretend those of us without them don't chip in as well.

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier:Ideal number is 2 or 3 kids for a couple in a developed country. Replace yourself and your spouse and maybe have one more for good measure/replace the kids who die before procreating (drown, sick, poisoned, etc).Breeding like rabbits, while fun, is what's done in the third world because 2/3 of those kids will die before procreating.

Why replace the kids who die? What's wrong with slowly stepping down the population in a controlled manner until people have breathing room and resources again?

Somacandra:Got kids. Happy with them. Lots of friends have kids. Lots of friends don't. Its not for everybody. I'm a firm believer in the general principle that "If you don't want it, then you can't have any." If you don't want children, you should not have them. If people want 'em, great. If not, cool.

Nabb1 : When you're old and dependent on the next generation of workers to provide for your care, just remember you called them "parasites," and try to appreciate the irony before you die. Alone.

Thanks to not having kids, I'll most likely die with a positive net worth (though I'll do my damnedest to hit zero the day I die, make no mistake!). I'll have pretty young nurses wiping my arse once I can no longer handle that task.

And compared to what exactly? Kids grudgingly dragged in to the home for their monthly visit to grandma, so she can fail to remember their names and everyone has a good laugh and she doesn't even remember last month's visit next month?

Thanks, but no thanks. Glurge aside, I sincerely hope I still have the presence of mind when the doctors diagnose me with something fatal, so I can blow through the rest of my savings on hookers and blow, culminating with a swan-dive into a live volcano. You can have your crappy monthly "family time" at the home. I'll either go out with a bang, or won't know the difference for drooling on myself, thankyouverymuch.

pla:Nabb1 : When you're old and dependent on the next generation of workers to provide for your care, just remember you called them "parasites," and try to appreciate the irony before you die. Alone.

Thanks to not having kids, I'll most likely die with a positive net worth (though I'll do my damnedest to hit zero the day I die, make no mistake!). I'll have pretty young nurses wiping my arse once I can no longer handle that task.

And compared to what exactly? Kids grudgingly dragged in to the home for their monthly visit to grandma, so she can fail to remember their names and everyone has a good laugh and she doesn't even remember last month's visit next month?

Thanks, but no thanks. Glurge aside, I sincerely hope I still have the presence of mind when the doctors diagnose me with something fatal, so I can blow through the rest of my savings on hookers and blow, culminating with a swan-dive into a live volcano. You can have your crappy monthly "family time" at the home. I'll either go out with a bang, or won't know the difference for drooling on myself, thankyouverymuch.

If no one had kids, where would these "pretty young nurses" come from? Apart from your fantasies, we are actually in agreement - you aren't cut out for parenthood. Too many people like you who shouldn't have kids do, and the kids suffer for it. So, you've probably made the right choice. You can't be totally self-absorbed and be a good parent,

Koodz:Why replace the kids who die? What's wrong with slowly stepping down the population in a controlled manner until people have breathing room and resources again?

Resources are indeed an issue, but I think a lot of that can be taken care of by being smarter about how we use our resources and more sustainable with our energy production, so I don't think we really need THAT much population control to get things back to where the human race is sustainable.

As far as space goes, even in China there is plenty of space for people, with cities like this laying empty:

The problem is that there just isn't a way to make a living in most of those places, so no one can afford to move in. Hell, if everyone was willing to live with urban population densities, you could fit a LOT of people on to the Earth:

Really at the end of the day, it all comes down to energy production. If we ever manage to crack the technology behind affordable controlled nuclear fusion, we could probably triple the population of the world with no ill effects because we'd have cleanish power and more than enough energy for increased food production and massive desalination projects. At the end of the day, it really comes down to energy, and another quantum leap in energy production capability similar to the beginning of the petroleum age could change the game completely in terms of the carrying capacity of the Earth.

Witness99:Exactly. For example, my gay male friends that complain about paying the "school tax" cause they will never have kids. Very short sighted.

I call that, someones gonna have to empty my bed pan when I'm old. Since I have no kids, that means it's going to be someone elses kids. Not sure I want to be old an retired in a society run by a bunch of dummkopfs.

\Seriously it's bad enough now while I'm earning a living.\\As I'm dying they'll probably be playing the be playing the Skrillex, easy listening over the PA.

Nabb1:pla: Nabb1 : When you're old and dependent on the next generation of workers to provide for your care, just remember you called them "parasites," and try to appreciate the irony before you die. Alone.

Thanks to not having kids, I'll most likely die with a positive net worth (though I'll do my damnedest to hit zero the day I die, make no mistake!). I'll have pretty young nurses wiping my arse once I can no longer handle that task.

And compared to what exactly? Kids grudgingly dragged in to the home for their monthly visit to grandma, so she can fail to remember their names and everyone has a good laugh and she doesn't even remember last month's visit next month?

Thanks, but no thanks. Glurge aside, I sincerely hope I still have the presence of mind when the doctors diagnose me with something fatal, so I can blow through the rest of my savings on hookers and blow, culminating with a swan-dive into a live volcano. You can have your crappy monthly "family time" at the home. I'll either go out with a bang, or won't know the difference for drooling on myself, thankyouverymuch.

If no one had kids, where would these "pretty young nurses" come from? Apart from your fantasies, we are actually in agreement - you aren't cut out for parenthood. Too many people like you who shouldn't have kids do, and the kids suffer for it. So, you've probably made the right choice. You can't be totally self-absorbed and be a good parent,

Considering how many people want kids as opposed to those who don't, that's a rather silly question.

pla:Feel bad? Why the hell would this make me feel bad? If anything, it justifies my decision to remain free of any parasites that incubate for 18+ years.

I can spend my money how I want, spend my free time how I want, sleep in on weekends, collect things without someone (like me as a child - A real terror!) breaking/burning/burying them... I occasionally need to sand and repaint the bannister that the cats (only two, not a "crazy cat person") have decided to use as a scratching post, but no big deal, and at least they show little interest (unlike me has a child) in my power tools.

And Omaha World Herald just pointed out that a steadily increasing number of others in our massively overpopulated world have made the same decision. Why should I feel bad again?

/ W00t! DINKs FTW, baby!

Off-topic-ish:

Could you wrap the bannister with carpet where the cats like to scratch? My friend's mom did something like that for the one dining room table leg that the cats couldn't seem to resist. After the cats passed on they removed the cover and you'd never know cats scratched that leg daily.

grumpfuff:Nabb1: pla: Nabb1 : When you're old and dependent on the next generation of workers to provide for your care, just remember you called them "parasites," and try to appreciate the irony before you die. Alone.

Thanks to not having kids, I'll most likely die with a positive net worth (though I'll do my damnedest to hit zero the day I die, make no mistake!). I'll have pretty young nurses wiping my arse once I can no longer handle that task.

And compared to what exactly? Kids grudgingly dragged in to the home for their monthly visit to grandma, so she can fail to remember their names and everyone has a good laugh and she doesn't even remember last month's visit next month?

Thanks, but no thanks. Glurge aside, I sincerely hope I still have the presence of mind when the doctors diagnose me with something fatal, so I can blow through the rest of my savings on hookers and blow, culminating with a swan-dive into a live volcano. You can have your crappy monthly "family time" at the home. I'll either go out with a bang, or won't know the difference for drooling on myself, thankyouverymuch.

If no one had kids, where would these "pretty young nurses" come from? Apart from your fantasies, we are actually in agreement - you aren't cut out for parenthood. Too many people like you who shouldn't have kids do, and the kids suffer for it. So, you've probably made the right choice. You can't be totally self-absorbed and be a good parent,

Considering how many people want kids as opposed to those who don't, that's a rather silly question.

As to the rest of your post..you sound bitter.

On the contrary. I'm not bitter at all. I think people like you would be terrible parents. I just find it funny that it's totally lost on you that one day you will essentially be a "parasite" - the creepy old lecher with no bowel control the nurses talk about. I admire people who are aware they aren't cut out for the job.

When I was a youth counselor taking care of five- and six-year-olds, I truly loved my kids, and I loved teaching and playing with them. I would have taken a bullet for any one of them, no questions asked. But I got to give them back at the end of the day. As for kids of my own, no freakin' way.

By far, the worst parents I know are the ones who had children because it was the right thing to do. Or worse, the ones who had children "so they can take care of me" when old age arrives--those are the real monsters.

Do what you think you should do with love in your heart and all will be well.

August11:By far, the worst parents I know are the ones who had children because it was the right thing to do. Or worse, the ones who had children "so they can take care of me" when old age arrives--those are the real monsters.

Do what you think you should do with love in your heart and all will be well.

If you are more worried about what impact having children will have on your life than how much of an impact you can have on a child's life, then you aren't approaching it right. And if you can't make that adjustment, there 's nothing wrong with not having kids.

Mad_Radhu:Really at the end of the day, it all comes down to energy production. If we ever manage to crack the technology behind affordable controlled nuclear fusion, we could probably triple the population of the world with no ill effects because we'd have cleanish power and more than enough energy for increased food production and massive desalination projects. At the end of the day, it really comes down to energy, and another quantum leap in energy production capability similar to the beginning of the petroleum age could change the game completely in terms of the carrying capacity of the Earth.

I tend to think that way too, but I think we'll need some major social changes to go along with that. The corruption, incompetence, and waste at the municipal level are appalling. We need to realize that not everyone needs to work, especially when that "work" can be done by four cells in a spreadsheet.

We'll need to have massive changes especially if we don't find this magical energy source.