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thanks for all your comments. I see now how a comment can be so different when it's coming from someone who really understands the situation an OP is having and those who don't.

Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote:

Well.

Yeah.

But.

Why doesn't the dojo have more yudansha? Perhaps it is something in how the dojo is operated and how the classes are taught, that make them disappear. Maybe they all get worn out by having this burden laid on them. They don't yet know how to learn from training with beginners, and they seldom feel they get much out from practise.

Teaching mixed level classes, including beginners, while giving something to all levels is difficult. I really don't think that those who never trained in such a setting, and much less taught such classes, will understand.

Perhaps you recieved lots of pushing and help before the shodan test, and now your teacher puts part of that energy elsewhere? Still, it's not clever letting the advanced students feel they are almost forgotten and ignored. David S, maybe you should talk to your teacher about it. There's no guarantee you'll have satisfying answers from him. But maybe you'll get him thinking. Perhaps he can compensate you by tossing you aroung for a couple of minutes, a couple of times during class, so you'll be happy to go back to the beginners to get some rest or something like that. (Oh yes, you learn a lot from taking ukemi from skilled people) OTOH he may get angry at you and think you are ungrateful. Well... you are already thinking about leaving if the situation doesn't get any better, right?

thanks for the reply, Hanna. I still love Aikido and would like to continue training in the dojo, if possible. the people are actually quite nice as a person so I'd like to hang around them. but in appropriate times. and I love Sensei's aikido and techniques..

well, I think I'll try using some of the ways to get enough exercise for a while.. let's see how it works out.

If you had mat time outside class when you could play with people on somewhat your level this situation might not feel as a burden, the way it does now. It could be that your teacher doesn't see the consequences of this lack of off class mat time. Teachers often follow the system they were formed in, without much reflektion. They might not see how practical differences in their own dojo as opposed to the one where they were trained should be adapted to also makes changes in dojo culture/class structure etc necessary. One class a week geared at higher levels maybe could be an idea? that will give you the energy you need for helping with the beginners.

In your dojo, do you usually train with the same partner the whole class? Introducing partner rotation, and dividing the duty of taking care of the newbes between the more advanced students in the group, could be a solution. There are flip sides to the no partner change-system too, but this is one of the major downsides. It's much easier to be the nice and caring sempai if you don't have to fulfill that role all the time.

I do suggest talking to your sensei.

I much prefer dojos where people are supposed to help out and think of the dojo as a whole, and not at every occasion grab the partner that suits them best. However, everybody also needs to be a little selfish - but too much selfishness ruins the dojo. There's a balance.

I don't know you, and I don't know your dojo, so no need to make comments on your character or the quality of teaching over there.
But there are two cases in my experience, where we were in a very similar situation.

1) The teacher of the dojo I join in Turkey virtually started from scratch. He founded the university dojo at Istanbul Technical University when he was shodan, and since the dojo was new, and the only one at the university, all students were beginners. So for some years he only worked with beginners (except seminars, and in Turkey they are not so frequent as here in Belgium) and educated his ukes. That was some seven or eight years ago. When I first came to his dojo, he had already one yudansha and ten or so advanced kyus. When I go there now, there are four or five classes per DAY, for small kids, advanced kids, tanto/ bokken, beginner adults, advanced adults, you name it. It cost him some years, and a lot of time, but finally it worked. So, there are no good ukes => you start producing them, and some day you'll have them.

2) In my dojo here in Belgium, all advanced students dropped out when the old sensei quit due to health reasons. Most of them went to a neighbouring dojo, and only us (4th kyu and lower) remained. Another teacher took over; he had some "advanced" students, but still there were very few hakamas on the mat. That was three years ago. No we have a 2nd dan, who joined from outside, and apparently we were not too boring to train with, so he stayed, and all the "old" aikidokas advanced, so there is always someone advanced to train with.

This said, I always have perceived it as a honour to be found good enough to teach beginners. If I don't know anything, I can't transmit anything. So if the teacher trusts me enough to let me teach beginners, I see it as a compliment, but also as a responsibility, and actually I even enjoy it. We have two classes where most students are beginners, and two classes where most students are advanced. I go to all of them, and I think it is interesting to work with beginners
=> they attack differently (they are not yet formed in the aikido mould), so you have to be more flexible
=> they don't know the movement very well, so you have to be slow and precise. That improves also your own techniques.
=> sometimes they are quite observant and tell you about an error you never found out yourself...

thanks for all your comments. I see now how a comment can be so different when it's coming from someone who really understands the situation an OP is having and those who don't.

I haven't been in your clothes, exactly. But all dojos that don't have beginner classes have to deal with this: how to teach and how to organize things so that the demands of all levels are met.

I've taught in a small dojo where I mostly had beginners plus one 3rd kyu student. After one year I realise I had put most of my effort on the beginners, and not given him enough time and attention.

I've been in dojos where we trained with the same partner the whole class, and the more advanced students were assigned the task of taking care of a beginner. Some of the advanced students loved it. Some were mildly unhappy about the situation but didn't feel they could complain... there is much to learn from teaching beginners - I like it, I even started a small university dojo in order to be able to continue doing it. But like in everything else, people are different. For some people it takes more time to appreciate working with beginners. But usually, I'd say that's not really expected at shodan. (Then there are those who LOVE teaching a beginner since they can spread their ego all over the poor beginner. It's not always those who are most fond of training with beginners who do the best job at it)

I've also trained at dojos where everybody took care of themselves, and chose training partners only to their own benefit never thinking about the good of the dojo. This can sometimes create good aikido, but never happy dojos.

So I've wrestled with these issues, a lot! from different perspectives.

Stories like Eva's, and dojos I've seen where by some funny coincidence most of the advanced students drop out when they have to spend too much time taking care of beginners, tell that your feelings are not that unusual. That people pass harsh judgements on you is unevitable, I think. They follow the general aikido/budo norm. But I do think that some people here could consider what Jun has written about moderating the tone of one's posts.

From your post, I see two issues. The first is "getting exercise," for which there are plenty of solutions. Done right, aikido isn't great as exercise anyway. Join a gym, study another art, go running with your dog, whatever.

The second is that you feel like your own training is suffering because you're working with beginners all the time. For that, I agree with the consensus. It's a different kind of training, sure, but beginners have a lot to teach.

Hanna, I think, at least here in the United States, that we use the term sempai differently than in Japanese culture. Here I understand the term to mean someone who is senior and sets an example for those who are junior, a role model of sorts. My limited understanding is that in Japan a sempai is one who essentiall "adopts" a junior and guides that person's development. From my perspective, I can't understand how an individual can turn off his role as sempai and just be another student, any more than I can understand a formal leader of an organization ignoring his obligation as a leader to become just one of the troops. Are we using the term differently?

I don't speak to Mr. Santana's character. I am simply observing that his attitude towards training with beginners is quite likely obvious to them and counter-productive to their training and to the well-being of the dojo. In my opinion it would be better to not take on the role of training them, or change his attitude towards them. It is difficult enough to start training in this art without the added burden of feeling unwelcome and a trial to be borne. His annoyance is one issue, and his personal need for more substantial training is another. They are two different things, and he can accomplish his personal goals in other ways, without demonstrating the negative behavior of being annoyed.

A sempai is the more advanced of two students - no more, no less. We all have sempai, those who started training before us/are more advanced, and kohai - those who started training after us/are less advaned. Someone who always is training with his juniors will be in the role of sempai all the time. When he's training with seniors or with people his own level, obviously he doesn't have to be doing any kind of mentoring/teaching. Then he can relax that part, and concentrate on other things.

I do think the Japanese stresses this more than Westerners typically do. But when you put advanced students to train with beginners, surely you are asking of them to act as sempai.

Hanna, I think we agree on the use of the term "sempai", but we disagree somewhat in what that role entails. One who is sempai to another is always sempai, regardless of who he is training with at that moment. I may be kohai to my specific training partner at a certain moment, but I am always sempai to my juniors and I'm expected to set a proper example with my own conduct. I am obligated to be respectful to my dojo mates, demonstrate the proper ettiquette, and train in the manner that is expected in my dojo. I'm quibbling a bit admittedly, but I can't simply turn off that role, any more than my sensei can turn off his role in the dojo. I might not be tasked or obligated to train/teach/coach a junior at a certain time, but I am always obligated to act appropriately. That view is why I argued with your earlier post and now you've clarified and we're probably not that far apart.

I have to say, I have some sympathy with the OP. Yeah, you can learn a lot from teaching and from working with beginners. But... teaching several times a week? As a new shodan? For the whole class? So that you never get to practice with people at your own level or better? Without changing partners so you're working with just one new person? When you're not actually running the class so you can't fix the problems you see (like people chatting on the mat)?

I don't know if all that matches the OP's situation but even if just most of them do, I can see being unhappy. I'd work towards doing some classes which are for senior people only. Or maybe start an informal working group that can practice outside of class time.

... I don't get the exercise I came to train for (they can't do a decent ukemi because my dojo focuses more on teaching them how to be a nage, instead of uke).

My idea will only address a tiny part of your issue, but it's worth a try. If your dojo is too focused on the techniques, and not enough on ukemi, maybe you could be The One Who Focuses On Ukemi.

At the dojo where I train Sensei teaches most of the classes, and the rest are taught by the yudansha. Each of them has a little stronger focus in one area - ukemi, suwari-waza, paired weapons practice, etc.. They get to focus on an aspect that inspires them, and for those of us in their classes, we get a variety of approaches to teaching and technique.

One of the main reasons I came to Aikido was to learn ukemi. Maybe you aren't the only one at your dojo who wishes there was a stronger focus on it.

1) The teacher of the dojo I join in Turkey virtually started from scratch. He founded the university dojo at Istanbul Technical University when he was shodan, and since the dojo was new, and the only one at the university, all students were beginners. ... there are four or five classes per DAY, for small kids, advanced kids, tanto/ bokken, beginner adults, advanced adults, you name it. It cost him some years, and a lot of time, but finally it worked. So, there are no good ukes => you start producing them, and some day you'll have them.

hats off to the Teacher in Turkey. I admire his perseverance and spirit of spreading Aikido. and 5 classes per DAY? now that's what I call full time job. I don't think I'm as great a teacher as he is.

Quote:

Eva Röben wrote:

2) ...so there is always someone advanced to train with.

...I see it as a compliment, but also as a responsibility, and actually I even enjoy it. We have two classes where most students are beginners, and two classes where most students are advanced. I go to all of them, and I think it is interesting to work with beginners

unfortunately, most of the "old" students only comes 1-2 times a week while I come to almost every class (6 classes a week). so in most of the classes, we almost always get overwhelmed because the new students to old students ratio is about 4-5 : 1

Quote:

Eva Röben wrote:

And in case its getting bored, there are always seminars.

unfortunately, in my country there are very few seminars. and most of the time it's in another province, so I can't take part in it because I have to go to work.

Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote:

I don't speak to Mr. Santana's character. I am simply observing that his attitude towards training with beginners is quite likely obvious to them and counter-productive to their training and to the well-being of the dojo. In my opinion it would be better to not take on the role of training them, or change his attitude towards them. It is difficult enough to start training in this art without the added burden of feeling unwelcome and a trial to be borne. His annoyance is one issue, and his personal need for more substantial training is another. They are two different things, and he can accomplish his personal goals in other ways, without demonstrating the negative behavior of being annoyed.

it's not that I hate teaching, I just want to train hard as well. when I'm teaching, I only focus on teaching. I still think being asked to teach is an honor and responsibility. it's just that at the end of a week, I thought to myself "what have I been spending all those hours of my life for?".

I'm perfectly ready and willing to give back to my Kohai, but it doesn't mean that I have to spend every night just to give to everyone and getting nothing for myself, right?

Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote:

This is an excellent point... Their ukemi isn't very good. But you're doing a lot of the teaching. So why aren't you teaching them better ukemi?

Katherine

believe me, I've been teaching a lot more ukemi than how I was taught in my previous dojo. but most of them either too stiff or can't or don't have the intention to focus on training and watch the details that are being pointed out by the instructor and follow them

the time limit to edit my last post has expired and I just read this post.

Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote:

From your post, I see two issues. The first is "getting exercise," for which there are plenty of solutions. Done right, aikido isn't great as exercise anyway. Join a gym, study another art, go running with your dog, whatever.

The second is that you feel like your own training is suffering because you're working with beginners all the time. For that, I agree with the consensus. It's a different kind of training, sure, but beginners have a lot to teach.

Katherine

in my previous dojo, I got more exercise than I could've wished for that I had to sit and rest on the edge of the mat some of the times because most of the students are so full of energy and looks ready to spend all of them on the mat.

I'm not only looking for exercise, but I also love the feeling when I do an aikido technique correctly (precise movement, timing, balance keeping and taking, etc). that's why if possible I'd like to train hard in the dojo. I've tried going to the gym and jogging, but they don't give me the same feeling I get in the dojo..

when I tried going to the only judo dojo in my town, it turns out that the people are not nearly as nice as the people in aikido dojo.

I went to a taekwondo class too but not for long, because sensei started asking me to teach a class on the same schedule as the taekwondo class.

I also went to a kungfu and muay thai class but the teacher had to close down the class because his job is taking too much of his time

David, it sure looks like you have been trying to find solutions, and I salute you for that.
I am wondering .... if you need to increase student's ability to take ukemi and you need a bit of a workout...why not spend the first 15 minutes of a class specifically on ukemi skills, and then close the class with line practice jiyuwaza - you start as nage - they line up and one at a time (not randori style) each student comes as quickly as he/she is comfortable with either a designated attack or any attack and you do simple "randori throw" paced to each one's abilities to let them get more comfortable....if they each run up to take their turn you will get some exercise. Then they get to practice randori throw with you in line as one of the ukes.
You could of course do technique on them when you are nage but in my experience for newbies it makes more sense when they are nage to be limited to the simplest of kokyu throws.
Good to teach ukemi skills (including giving a real attack while moving, rather than just hurling oneself), pacing, flow, etc - and good way for everybody to work up a bit of a sweat.

Dear Lyle,
Nice way of escaping.The problem is not the sensei or the members/beginners. The problem is the man himself. He is a person who seems to use others and brings little to the table in respect of giving back that which someone gave him. Cheers, Joe

Sarcasm isn't heard well via text. I agree he needs to give back to the others. Something that I am sure anyone who has practiced any art for any real length of time has done. I certainly didn't walk into the dojo and not need my sempai's help. There is a responsibility inherent with accepting rank.

unfortunately, most of the "old" students only comes 1-2 times a week while I come to almost every class (6 classes a week). so in most of the classes, we almost always get overwhelmed because the new students to old students ratio is about 4-5 : 1

I'm perfectly ready and willing to give back to my Kohai, but it doesn't mean that I have to spend every night just to give to everyone and getting nothing for myself, right?

Ok questions based on this.

1) Are all of the 5-6 classes a week your dojo has open to everyone or are classes classified as beginner, advanced only, intermediate etc?

2) how many of those classes each week are you actually leading/instructing?

If your classes are all open to all levels you might talk to your sensei about making some of the classes advanced only so that your higher level students can focus on more than just basics. I agree it is not fair to expect your senior students to shepherd beginners every single class. But is this really the case in your dojo or are you just not looking for ways and opportunities to continue your own advancement while also helping those behind you?

If you are teaching all of the classes every week or a larger number than what you would like then you need to learn how to set some limits. You can tell your teacher that you can only teach a certain number of classes per week.

If you are in a mixed level class and are not leading you can allow the beginners to train with one another once they have had a few classes and grab someone more advanced for part of the class. I do this myself. So far no one has died. Beginners need to learn that they are not going to be led by the hand forever. Yes the first 5-6 classes maybe they need to be taken under wing more but they need to learn to work with everyone and that includes people at their own level or even newer if someone new turns up for class that day. You are not doing them any favors by babying them.

My dojo is quite small. We only have 5 classes a week and three of those are mixed level Beginner oriented classes. But we do have two classes where we can get into deeper and more energetic training as well. Sure I miss having 5 classes a week of training that is geared for intermediate/advanced levels but OTOH I think I have really learned a lot from working with all of the new people. Even if I do have an awfully hard time not flattening them by accident.

unfortunately, most of the "old" students only comes 1-2 times a week while I come to almost every class (6 classes a week). so in most of the classes, we almost always get overwhelmed because the new students to old students ratio is about 4-5 : 1

There are two reasons why this might happen.

One is good: the dojo is new and growing, so there aren't very many senior students and there's a steady influx of new students. But over time, you'll accumulate more senior students and the situation will improve.

One is bad: no one sticks around long enough to get really good. And perhaps now you know why not.

there are actually 4 shodans in my dojo right now. but most of them can't come as often because of personal reasons. being the only shodan in a class, Sensei always tell me to take care of the new people. Sensei can only handle so many new people at once, and when there is a student doing something wrong, I feel the urge to correct him, therefore, losing my chance to train...

so I guess I'm having this problem because I care too much about the new people? should I just ignore them occasionally? I want people to at least get the basic movement right so that Sensei won't need to lecture them too much. he does that, btw.

so I guess I'm having this problem because I care too much about the new people? should I just ignore them occasionally? I want people to at least get the basic movement right so that Sensei won't need to lecture them too much. he does that, btw.

If sensei is teaching and leading class then it is his job to teach and to correct not yours. Sometimes people make mistakes. Often they learn from them.

One question for you: as you are taking part of the teaching load, and particularly as you are a novice teacher, do you get the opportunity to discuss your teaching with your sensei? Do you take advantage of that opportunity?

It occurs to me that being a new teacher is a very lonely place, IF you don't have a senior teacher to talk to and say, "I was teaching such-and-such and they were all doing thus-and-so, so I tried to explain it this way, and they all looked blank, and..."

In the dojo learn we have the same concept- Yundasha should help beginners to free Sensei to deal with others. In the past, I have had a period in which I had the same problem, my solution was simple - I talked with my Sensei, and explained about my feelings. Turns out, he felt I was interested in teaching, since, siilarly t your own descrition, I used to stop my own training to help others (in our dojo, this is even expected of Yudasha / vetrans).

After our talk, I found I only had to treach at some specific part of the time, which provided me with additional time to train with others. Further, Sensei realized he has to show "favorisem" to those who dedicate time to teach - and invite them to be his Uke and practice with him some. Thus incouraging other Yundasha (we had some) to give more attention to beginners even if their time is limited.

I shoudl also note that in oru dojo too, people first learn Ukemi and only then learn anything else. e.g. first lesson - backwards fall tens of times, then some Korindo Tai-Sabaki, then a single technique involving backwards fall when they are Uke.

In my current dojo our classes are mixed. We try to pair up with someone different for each technique. Sometimes you are pared up with a beginner and sometimes with a senior student, sometimes you do more teaching, sometimes more learning. It was the same way at Boulder Aikikai.

That said, teaching newer students is important. I think it is very important to help less experienced individuals create proper habits, correct stance, moving from center, proper angle, proper rolls etc. Give them the fundamentals to progress to the level that allows them to go all out.

I also believe every Dojo should teach proper Ukemi before teaching anything else.

If you you are worried about getting a workout perhaps an hour of P90X everyday would help.

Hi David,
I too have had experiences like this too, and yes it is frustrating and can really get you down when you "think" people are not trying hard enough, when people seem to be not interested in the learning Aikido.

my question to you is a simple one, are you interested in learning Aikido?

Because if you truly are, then your teacher is teaching you an invaluable lesson, Humility.

when students are newly promoted to yudansha, it goes to there head and start throwing advanced and beginners all over the place to display there knowledge and power.
Just like you said this is exactly what you enjoy doing, and this is what training means to you.
Your teacher by getting you to teach as a man of rank, is showing you that it's not about throwing people all over the dojo and saying see look what I can do! True knowledge and power should not be displayed in a vulgar demonstration of constant winning over the opponent.
it is taking the care to show begginers, the correct way, so you bring them gently up to your level of understanding. In this way the whole dojo improves at the same time, and then you can train in a manor you see fit for the students and situation in hand.This is an honour and a blessing. Not something that must be endured and put up with until a time that you can start throwing and pinning people down again.

indeed by teaching, you learn more about yourself and the technique's of Aikido, because you have to break the fundamentals right down to their essential points, this re-inforces your own understanding whilst encouraging students to see and feel it for themselves.

last Thursday we spent two hours practicing only Ai hanmi Ikkyo, with the emphasis on the beginners, and on learning the fundamental basics of body movement to allow the technique to unfold. I found this to be totally rudimentary and frustraing and extremely annoying, I wanted to practice throws, get all sweaty from the constant changing of techniques and increased pace that the normal class offers.
Until I saw the care in which sensei was demonstrating humility, correct fundamental Waza. And I thanked him for a great class.

It is not about what you or I want to be doing, its about what the beginner's needs to learn, understand and then know in themselves, that is most important. Anything else should be seen as very selfish indeed, this is how I felt last Thursday when I caught myself wanting to do all the other stuff Aikido offers, I felt selfishness.

If your students lack anything, it could be they have not been taught it, did not understand it, or do not believe it works. It is your Job as Yudansha and now as a sensei, to make sure that if your students lack anything, you fulfill that lack with correct knowledge, and see to it that it is applied correctly also.