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No. You see, that's the sad thing about this--you won't lose your excuse. You'll ignore it, like you do with so many other facts and explanations, and on top of that, you'll just find yet another reason to bitch--that's all you really do, Aki, and that's all so many other "fans" do about the Nanoha franchise anymore. You're part of the problem as to why a number of other more reasonable fans have dropped the franchise. All. You do. Is bitch.

Except there are very good reasons for all this bitching. Force is the Nanoha equivalent of Star Wars prequels. It's bad, 3/4 of the plot doesn't make any sense and it's ruining a great franchise.

All those Force defenders are reminding me of people who tried to find an excuse why didn't Obi Wan use force speed in the battle with Maul.

Except there are very good reasons for all this bitching. Force is the Nanoha equivalent of Star Wars prequels. It's bad, 3/4 of the plot doesn't make any sense and it's ruining a great franchise.

All those Force defenders are reminding me of people who tried to find an excuse why didn't Obi Wan use force speed in the battle with Maul.

I agree with Force being inferior in quality and writing to all the past seasons but i consider unecessary to continue this trend of posts. I have clashed my opinions with several people for a considerable amount of time since my frustration with Force started and i think opinions is the only thing that must clash in this kind of threads, don't take things to a personal level guys. I'm very harsh towards Force and i have hard bias against some characters or aspects but i don't have anything against you(i even think some of you are actually fun people).

That's why i decided to ignore that chain of posts because i feel they're passing trough opinions and trying to reach directly to a person. You don't like my opinion? Fine, write an argument telling me why you think i'm wrong and i will answer according to my own beliefs, this is called a "discussion" forum for a reason.

Why did original Star Wars work? Because it ran with raw charisma and charm, first, and foremost. It was a movie series that should not have been as good as the final product ended up being, yet, there you have it.

Why did Nanoha function? The end of S1 and most of As. Raw charisma, and charm. Without it? You get StrikerS and the other part of season 1, a big mix up, some parts extremely good, some parts bad, the rest of it just there.

ViViD, and Force? Are not as good as the above, different reasons, plus not having the C&C.

Force has very, extremely inconsistent action scenes and pacing issues, and of course, people hate the fact that the old cast is vulnerable to defeat or death. Do I feel that Touma had been and is fleshed out as a character? Considering his (one of them unnecessary) flashbacks, and his own actions, and the EC virus slowly turning him insane through both homicidal impulse and pain, yes. There's nothing missing or what we don't understand, and there's room for himself to be expanded upon. But he's still boring at the moment, more than part 1 S1 Nanoha. He needs to be truly challenged as a person to move out of that.

Most of the ViViD fights are extremely insipid to anyone who read battle manga #30942 and know that just dodging simple blows without a counter in the same panel is the artist's way of filling up space, and that people matching their fists/weapons/cooking utensils until one of them breaks through is just lazy. And again, Vivio, like Touma, is more boring than part 1 S1 Nanoha, for much the same reasons.

Do they both have their good parts? Like Corona and Caro doubling up with binding and golem arts? Like Corona uppercutting Einhart? Like Isis smacking around Arnage like she owed her money? Like Touma telling Fortis to sit on it and spin? Sure. But at the end of the day?

No, if I absolutely had to choose, I'd just reader Soul Eater Not! and Break Blade instead. Do I still have interest in seeing where the Nanoha series goes? Sure, why the hell not, there's still room for Tsuzuki to get his act together. I stuck around Star Wars even with Episode 3, until the New Jedi Order and Knights of the Old Republic 2. Nanoha has not even remotely begun to touch that level of WRONG!

So if people want to go smackdown on the new series, I got no problem with that, we're not TVTropes, and we are supposed to be open to being critical of anything no matter whose feelings we hurt.

That's also why people disagree with the recurring idea and posting that Caledfwich equipment is fragile, or that Signum is somehow a bad swordswoman now, or that Curren is some kind of ultrasuper antagonist like Vivio on the Cradle or Reinforce Eins. The difference between being annoyed with the series and with posters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Spoiler for A tale of two Eclipses:

Ah, so I did get that last part wrong after all. No sniper, I was wrong. No sniper at all.

Which just makes the both of them kinda, well, bad stooges at the end. You don't notice the kill switch in your brain? That's like the half a kilogram of plastic explosives in your belly. Y u no c doktor?

I never played Ace Combat 3(i suck at flight simulators xDU) so i can't get the references xDU.

Well, the whole concept of Ancient Belka was effectively lifted from Ace Combat 5 and Ace Combat Zero, so you can at least read the wiki or something. Basically, Neucom and General Resource in AC3 were corporate superpowers who fought each other and UPEO, a sort of United Nations peacekeeping army, over the world domination. Ouroboros was a clandestine terrorist organization that ended up fighting everyone at once and winning (in two endings out of five).

A World Without Boundaries had Solo Wing Pixy. And a documentary of sorts with Pixy in it.

If it weren't for Cypher's name being already taken, Tsuzuki should've totally stolen that idea, and then showcased the Belkan wars for the utter messes that they were, he already has Olivie being elevated in the present to an unbeatable (inhuman) force of righteousness and good as opposed to the troubled and flawed person she probably was. Someone who would say "It's funny how the world works – it's a giant ouroborous, the same thing repeating over and over. Join me, and we can fight that pattern until it swallows us up."

But that's probably just us having played too many vidya gaems I guess.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iromaru

Except there are very good reasons for all this bitching. Force is the Nanoha equivalent of Star Wars prequels. It's bad, 3/4 of the plot doesn't make any sense and it's ruining a great franchise.

Ya know, normally I'll for people sharing their opinion, as long as it is well-supported. But you're way off base here; the plot does make sense, and it is nowhere near as bad as the Star Wars prequels.

Perhaps, if there are parts of the plot you don't understand, you could enlighten us, and then we in turn could explain it to you.

And don't mistake "currently don't understand true motives" as a plot hole; at this point, we still expect there to be some mystery.

Why did original Star Wars work? Because it ran with raw charisma and charm, first, and foremost. It was a movie series that should not have been as good as the final product ended up being, yet, there you have it.

Why did Nanoha function? The end of S1 and most of As. Raw charisma, and charm. Without it? You get StrikerS and the other part of season 1, a big mix up, some parts extremely good, some parts bad, the rest of it just there.

ViViD, and Force? Are not as good as the above, different reasons, plus not having the C&C.

Agreed, even with all the flaws S1 has a lot of heart involved into it's production and the final product reflected it(as awesome as MOVIE 1st is, it lacks most of that feeling), A's just continued and took it to the extreme at this point the story was very fun and exciting, considering the plot involves an ill girl and a conspiration that really says something. I feel the good intention in StrikerS but somehow that naive and warm feeling lost the path in the middle, still some of it was recovered near the end. Force totally lost that feeling and i feel ViVid as an imitation, it looks nice and is fun but somehow i can't feel the same effort on the characters as before.

So yeah, charisma and charm are valuable elements to a franchise like Nanoha, the plots were simple and a bit cheesy but we can feel the spark on the job and that make the show enjoyable, even the flaws become part of the fun. I think Tsuzuki attempted to get too serious and lost that advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuze

Do they both have their good parts? Like Corona and Caro doubling up with binding and golem arts? Like Corona uppercutting Einhart? Like Isis smacking around Arnage like she owed her money? Like Touma telling Fortis to sit on it and spin? Sure. But at the end of the day?

I always smile while remembering that xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuze

No, if I absolutely had to choose, I'd just reader Soul Eater Not! and Break Blade instead. Do I still have interest in seeing where the Nanoha series goes? Sure, why the hell not, there's still room for Tsuzuki to get his act together. I stuck around Star Wars even with Episode 3, until the New Jedi Order and Knights of the Old Republic 2. Nanoha has not even remotely begun to touch that level of WRONG!

Let's be honest, the Nanoha franchise was never masterpiece material. I started to like it because of the flashy color, cheeful charcters and over-the-top action, it used to be a fun and exciting series to watch. That's why i think the series started to lost his shine when it approached a full-on military setting. They attempted to make a fun show to look more serious and because of that my mind started to compare it with actually well-done serious anime plots from other series. The part i will always love the most about Nanoha is the optimism and the heroism packed in a flashy envelop xD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuze

That's also why people disagree with the recurring idea and posting that Caledfwich equipment is fragile, or that Signum is somehow a bad swordswoman now, or that Curren is some kind of ultrasuper antagonist like Vivio on the Cradle or Reinforce Eins. The difference between being annoyed with the series and with posters.

Sometimes i'll do my best in giving good arguments, some times i'm a bit more delusional xDU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuze

Ah, so I did get that last part wrong after all. No sniper, I was wrong. No sniper at all.

Which just makes the both of them kinda, well, bad stooges at the end. You don't notice the kill switch in your brain? That's like the half a kilogram of plastic explosives in your belly. Y u no c doktor?

Can you feel a weight difference inside your brain? I can't xDU

And to be fair, Ch. 19's fight is kind of cool, it was better paced than the S6 VS. Huckebein fight by faaaaaar. Also contain good one-liners(Veyron: Shut up...) and Marty's smootheness makes him kind of funny xD. That's what i'm talking about, two simultaneous fights neatly packed into a single chapter with good time distributed between both(the switching parts between Veyron and Arnage while fighting Dego and Marty are well done), also i'm glad because this is now the best writen/drawed fight of the season, surpassing the Signum VS. Cypha fight and freeing my mind of another motive to keep remembering that bloodfest.

If future fights follow the quality of this one and beyond i think i'll be able to finally get some fun reading this thing xD.

Curren is some kind of ultrasuper antagonist like Vivio on the Cradle or Reinforce Eins.

Neither of them actually defeated anyone. Vivio never even hurt Nanoha, and Reinforce was unable to beat her for a whole episode. Curren is like a character from a REALLY bad fanfic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

surpassing the Signum VS. Cypha fight

The problem is Signum VS. Cypha fight was bad. Really bad. It's hard to even call that a fight. That last fight might have been an improvement, but it was nothing great either.

So far that sports tournament in Vivid have much better fights than Force. And Force is supposed to be that serious, real deal and mature series. And yes, it's "mature" when it comes to killing unimportant people we don't even know but when it comes to named characters we all know that in the worst case they will end in hospital.

And really, after 20 chapters of Force I still don't care about anything that happened. It completely failed at building any tension or drama. I don't care about any of the new characters in the slightest. Everything that happens make me question the intelligence of the characters involved, sense of the whole setting and most of all skills of the writer.

In two (or more like one and a half) episodes Madoka managed to do 10 times more with it's characters than Force did in 20 chapters. If any of the new Force characters was suddenly beheaded I wouldn't even care.

And? What does that make S1 Fate in that case? Or that one Gadget Drone who got the drop on Nanoha?

If we have to go there, Win/Loss/Tie ratios matter only as a reflection of performance, not results.

Quote:

Vivio never even hurt Nanoha,

The same Vivio who was smacking Nanoha around the Cradle? You would seriously argue that she wasn't by far the most powerful antagonist in all of StrikerS, in a series that had people like Unison Zest and the Numbers working in teams?

Nanoha couldn't fight her with kids gloves. To beat her, she had to go waaaaay over her limit, in a time of her age where she was packed to the gills with firepower.

Quote:

and Reinforce was unable to beat her for a whole episode.

Eins displayed well, well, well enough power to annihilate Nanoha like a shadow if she had just decided to do so, in any number of ways. Why she didn't...well, no one ever said that A's was airtight.

Quote:

Curren is like a character from a REALLY bad fanfic.

Because she stabbed Hayate in the back? Or because she crushed Vita and Erio?

I don't like her, but bad fanfic would have her hit harder than Vita, or cast more destructive magic than Hayate, or go on and on and on about how incredible the author, I mean, Curren is. We got none of that. All we got was that she's quick, has no compunctions about hurting people, is creepy psychotic in a bad way, and can fire a hail of paper. That's basically peanuts.

Quote:

So far that sports tournament in Vivid have much better fights than Force.

You mean how chapter 24 was basically 6 or 7 pages of very simple action, and 24 pages of flashbacks, reaction shots, and charging magic stances?

Or 25 had 8 of action, 2 for people getting hit in the jaw, and the rest just, y'know?

Or 26 which was, well, even less than even the chapters in the preliminaries?

Compared to inconsistent battles on the Esquad and in the air? No, as far as both of them go, they've been pretty much equal in terms of telling rather than showing, though for different reasons. Both of them have had rather lackluster action with pretty art, although there are a very few exceptions.

Chapter 19 was a bit of an improvement for Force, 27 28 was a better improvement for ViViD, I lost my memory for a second, bad Kuze, we'll see if it leads to anything this month.

If Signum vs Cypha absolutely had to happen? After de-unison, Signum throws the Fire Ring at Cypha, and tries to blindside her. Cypha makes it look like she's gonna block with her larger sword - then drops it at the last second, using her arm as a sacrificial tarpit to stop Leviathan's momentum, and uses the window of opportunity to immediately slice Signum with her short sword. At no point is Leviathan shattered, although cracks can appear.

Signum later on goes through review, changing her style to not go for parry-attack-exchange, rather using her superior speed and reflexes for dodge/counter attack in one movement. Risky, but Fate could tell her about it.

Quote:

If any of the new Force characters was suddenly beheaded I wouldn't even care.

*shrug*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Yeah, seriously comparing Force to that is just kinda mean. I've got some standards

Remember, there is no dark side or light side of the Force!

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Force hasn't had all that many fights that have really, conclusively finished compared to ViVid. That's probably owing to differences in tone and genre.

Yes, pretty much this. Mostly, the fights are ended because of outside interference. Which is dumb and lazy for the most part, but there you have it.

Clearly, the two main causes that led to Force "failed" is the plot and characters. With the slow pace of battle, the storyline too slow here. For me, it's no problem. It's just, no matter how good a given moment, either awesome or whatever, can not be enjoyed by both. Even arguably failed to meet targets to gain the sympathy of the loyal fans.

The problem is Signum VS. Cypha fight was bad. Really bad. It's hard to even call that a fight. That last fight might have been an improvement, but it was nothing great either.

Which is what makaes it so sad. Signum VS Cypha was indeed a lame fight but it was also the best coreographed fight until the Hucks VS. Fakes fight in Ch. 19 and that's because the majority of the fights during the "Esquad Assault" and "S6 VS. Huckebein/Tohma" are just painfully bad writen/administrated. The recent Fight is an improvement in comparission to all other Force battles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iromaru

And really, after 20 chapters of Force I still don't care about anything that happened. It completely failed at building any tension or drama. I don't care about any of the new characters in the slightest. Everything that happens make me question the intelligence of the characters involved, sense of the whole setting and most of all skills of the writer.

I agree with most of this. Specially about the "questioning the intelligence of the characters" part, it's hard to care about of a situation involving characters whose personality traits aren't explored properly(i still feel the Tohma group as a bunch of strangers, i'm actually more familiarized with the Hucks at this moment .....and that's terrible xDU). Ch. 19 is average compared with actually good action manga but it was decently executed and was a breath of fresh air for my tired patience. Don't like the story so far but it has it's little moments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iromaru

In two (or more like one and a half) episodes Madoka managed to do 10 times more with it's characters than Force did in 20 chapters. If any of the new Force characters was suddenly beheaded I wouldn't even care.

Heh, i just watched 2 episodes of Madoka Magica and dropped the series because i finded it boring(ok, everybody was telling me the really good stuff starts from Ch. 3 onwards so i'm planning on retake the series soon). First two chapters are fairly average(and still better than Force) but are also too slow.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iromaru

The problem is Signum VS. Cypha fight was bad. Really bad. It's hard to even call that a fight. That last fight might have been an improvement, but it was nothing great either.

Manga fights are rarely any good. You're looking at this fight from the lens of what transpired in anime. You can't do that; they are different mediums.

I think your expectations aren't quite what they should be for this series. But it sounds like you don't like it, so I presume you won't read it or follow it anymore, and thus feel no need to comment? After all, why follow a series you heavily dislike?