Ok, so this has been on my mind since we started doing FL. I'm debaiting bringing this to the wow fourms/mmo-champ but I want to see the reaction I get here first.

For Major Domo, its obvious that it is a 1 tank fight which isnt bad. HOWEVER, I play a warrior tank and every single week I get either kicked out of raid for that boss or im forced to go dps due to prot pallys having an ability that is more or less a "raid bubble" ??? Ive asked a few times for the name of this skill but i cant really get a straight answer out of anyone. If someone could fill me in on the name that would be sweet.

But regardless, after getting sat last night to a prot pally in litterly no joke not even the friendly rep cape from FL full 359 gear.. when im full 378 gear.. I draw a line... that is some serious bogus considering he is a new guild member AND on top of that being that under geared for FL. I just dont know what to say on that...

So my fellow spiceheads, dose anyone else agree that this situation is a little off in terms of equality?? is that CD seriously so OP that people are willing without a thought about it to step around an over geared tank for a significantly lower geared one just because of a single cool down? Wasn’t the whole point of this expansion to get everyone’s class/roll equivalent???

I have a feeling that someones going to bring up the idea of Rallying Call but i dont think that it even comes close in terms of being able to compete with this raid bubble.

I'm not complaining that they are doing what they need to do to kill the boss, I'm saying its unfair to warriors as a whole. think about it, that fight is a dps race to loose a dps is difficult the boss has 179 million life!! thats alot of life! being such, healing the tank is the something you shouldnt want to worry about. The whole reason tanks tweek out about getting avoidance capped is so healers dont have to focus everything on them so they can keep the raid up easier. In a situation where a tank is taking massive dmg b.c they are undergeared putting stress on the healers who in turn cant properly cap off the raid inbetween scyths resulting in nearly 25 wipes in one night.. yeas 25 wipes on 1 boss in 1 night.. shall we bang our heads against the wall a little harder please, I feel something just starting to shake loose.. oh wait nvm that was just my willingness to try. like should i have to elaborate father then that? we have the same exact healers every night, they have healed through that fight with me tanking several times mostly 1-3 shots. IMO speaks for itself.

As a retired pally tank I feel your pain. However, its nice to hear that Pallys are one of the OP classes. They have gotten the shaft for awhile. Do I think it should be balanced...yes of course, but everyone loves their class while its OP.

i've always had this battle between Warrior tank and Pally tank... Pallys are and will always be better in the eyes of DPS'ers, Mad you know i roll a warrior tank as a main so i'm not pally fan but it's the way it goes Pally's have always been Blizzard's mummies boy and will always be the easiest class to play in the game.

I haven't played Wow for 2 years now after finally quitting. But i remember the arguments from day 1 through to wotlk, on class wars, and the Pallys were for a long while over powered, first as healers, then as tanks, then as dps, so not surprised they had to keep nerfing them.

The Paladin was always a Blizzard pet. And I am sure will be again once they nerf it a little. In some ways I miss the good old days of 1 spec for raiding and 1 spec for pvp ;-)

I hear ya bollo, IMO they should make rally call a bit better. how about remove last stand all together or remove really call and combine the both of them?? A single raid wide last stand hell meet in the middle and 25% life. Up from RC's 20% and down from LC's 30%.. a compromise, but effective. I honistly dont like the idea of both last stand and rally call i think its silly.

oh well seems this would most likely go no where and ide most likely get trolled over on the wow fourms for QQ'ing. Its just not fair that I have to be forced to play a spec I dont like or not play at all.

One decrease our damage 20%. One makes us totally immune (should only be used by a very experianced Pally tank and he has to have the macro to get rid of it FAST!) It is only used as a last resort on the Pally due to a debuff or an instant death coming. Casting a self bubble and the boss goes after the person #2 on the threat list. The other bubble is the ability for the Pally to bubble someone else. That person will become immune to all meele damage. This is usually cast on a healer who is very much in trouble, I dont, as a rule cast it on DPS.

And yes, the whole War vs Pally tank has been going on forever. War tanks ruled in Vanilla, Pallys were terrible. BC Pallys ruled on AoE tanking, Wars were much better on single threat targets. I have never played a War so I cannot comment much. Unfortunatly the only tanks I see nowadays are Pallys and the (dreaded) DK tanks (I hate DKs but I digress). Warriors that I do see tank, I dont usually see a problem with. But with the introduction of DKs, why play a non caster, straight meele class? There just are not that many Warriors out there anymore it seems.

I dont see that great of an advantage of taking a Pally over a War just to be a meat shield.

ok major domo does 2,225,000 amount of dmg devided by those in a frontal cone infront of him. ur bubble on the raid will remove 20% of that dmg all across the board. tahts 20% off of each person. Whenever he does this ability it hits everyone in raid for 2,225,000 dmg 90k respectivly to each in a 25 man. so apply the 20% reduction (18,000 dmg) you get everyone gets hit for 72k dmg instead. manageable.

now with rally call, everyone is receiving 20% life average player has 130-150k granting them 26k-30k. when the 90k tick comes around thats leaving players to be hit with only a 60-64k dmg tick average say 62k. This is not including tanks who get nearly 40k off on their hit. GREATLY better. However, true we can use it in any spec..... But there is more, he is undergeared.. soo lets do some math.

Tank is undergeared so naturally he will take more dmg. I know for a fact a tank can reduce the dmg they take over the course of a fight if they do their rotation correctly and get to the correct avoidance caps. Rotation is completely player based RNG. However the gear is straight forward. you will reduce this much dmg avoid this often yada yada yada.

so now we have a warrior and a pally, both do their rotation FLAWLESSLY put out their max dmg reduction and just the perfect times yada yada yada. Whos going to take less dmg, the tank in full 359 or the tank in full 378? and by how much?

It speaks for itself, the 378 would take a significant amount less of dmg.. On an average fight just being bad at your rotation while the other tank does it correctly can result in almost a full half a million + in extra pointless damage. In total the paladins bubble is reducing about 450,000 damage total. Where as rally call reduces about 700k+ damage 700k at the lowest, it depends on the groups average life and a tank should be sitting at about 40k reduction compaired to the average 28k, well it dosnt reduce the damage but it absorbs it. regardless 450k to 700k bcs/wcs.

so use both twice in a fight, get 900,000 dmg reduction from a pally followed by about 1,400,000 dmg absorbson (actually a little higher b.c i didnt properly apply the health of tanks or those with inflated health pools)... soo thats about a 900k block of healing difference tahts added when a pally tanks.

Ok so now the question where im all worked up. We need to find a way to take the 900k of extra healing needed and get it done. Obviously the healers is doing their job flawlessly can not throw an extra 900k out of their butts just because we called for it. It has to be done elsewhere through less obvious ways. How about a gear check now on the DPS check fight. Whos going to take less dmg and less frequently in a situation where both tanks perform their rotations flawlessly. A tank in full 359 or a tank in full 379. My money goes to the 379 for str8 up stat differences as previously stated.

Ok now down the line the pally gets geared. the more and more gear he gets the more and more he can even that out then eventually override it and make it a positive thing. Placing him in a situation where his ability is overpowered based on his overall gear level. The allready geared warrior stands no chance in this situation once the pally comes to like gear and skill.

the Prot pally only raid wide buff gives 20% dmg reduction to all raid members for next 6 seconds.

In total for the course of a Major Domostag helm fight. a pally tank with this CD can negate on average about 900,000 damage total over the corse of a fight if used correctly.

A warrior can use Rally Call twice per fight to reduce a total of 1,400,000 damage (this number will allways continue to grow as players add more life to their healthpools)

Pallys can only use this CD as prot, Warriors can use it whenever in any spec. Having a prot pally tank this adds a free 900k dmg taken away from the fight.

Now in a compairson of two tanks one 359(pally) one 378(warrior) in heavy melle dmg fight such as Domo whos going to str8 up prevent more dmg with dodge/parrys/block average hit dropping sayyy idk 60k per melle hit not exact but just an example. Plug in these numbers

1.5 sec swing.

60k per melle hit

6 min fight

240 melle swings.

14,400,000 dmg total

+2% extra dodge =288,000 avoided.

288k dmg extra by just having 2% extra dodge. Now think if you added another 1-2% to parry and about 7% to block. and about 8% to armor. It adds way up. More then 900k is my bet.

Ahhh. Divine Guardian, thats not a bubble, thats why I was so corn fused. All party or raid members within 30 yards, excluding the Paladin, take 20% reduced damage for 6 sec.

That spell cannot be the basis for one tanking class over another, come on. 20% less damage for 6 seconds, wont make or break you. Its one of thoes O Crap buttons when all hope is slipping away. If you are relying solely on this spell to down a raid boss, you are mistaken. Sure every bit helps but no.

Your last two posts point out the biggest reason I quit the game. Its too much work. I couldn't play the game just to play anymore I had to work at the game to make sure everything was as tweaked as I could get it. God forbid I play an alt when I should be grinding rep or gathering mats. That just sucked the fun right out of it for me.

And, yes I know, that makes it fun for some. Thats great! IMO the grind has gotten to be too much. It used to be harder to attain things but there were also less things to attain. Now there is just too much. I know its part of Blizzards strategy to keep people playing, the "time sink", if you will.

Ahhh. Divine Guardian, thats not a bubble, thats why I was so corn fused. All party or raid members within 30 yards, excluding the Paladin, take 20% reduced damage for 6 sec.

That spell cannot be the basis for one tanking class over another, come on. 20% less damage for 6 seconds, wont make or break you. Its one of thoes O Crap buttons when all hope is slipping away. If you are relying solely on this spell to down a raid boss, you are mistaken. Sure every bit helps but no.

people refer to it as a bubble its more or less the same thing as a priest AoE powerword barrier except its dmg % based and not actual dmg. either way im not basing my entire discussion over the subject on a skill thats OP.

the whole reason I'm doing this is to prove the following.

Im being sat out of the raid / forced to play as dps so that they can have this CD at their disposal to help healing.

The problem is this CD only prevents 900k dmg overall throughout the course of the fight. However this other tanks gear level makes him take nearly 1,000,000 extra damage then I would if i where to tank. Completely negaiting and then some the use of this CD.

Healers have to spam this tank to keep him up. leaving them with that many less GCD's to use on healing up the raid between each flame scyth.

The whole reason they have him is so they can make it thought the scyths easier. when in actuality they arnt doing anything effective at all. Just changing the time in which the dmg is applied to the players.

Having a more geared tank = less dmg on tank = less big heals needed which take up alot of time. Which could in turn be used instead to re-cap off the raid inbetween each scyth removing the need to an extra CD and overall improving heals.

In a single 6 minute encounter with the boss. He will do 225 melle swings.

359 pally tank has 13.5% dodge & parry making up a total of 27% 100% avoidance on his 225 attacks. he will 100% avoid 60.75 of these 225 attacks.

Where as the 378 warrior with 15% dodge and 17% parry will avoid 94.5 of these 225 attacks.

thats 30 less ticks of 60k dmg on the tank average heal is about 25-30k having 2 heals on a tank it takes 2 GCD's to heal each dmg tick every 1.5 seconds.

that 1.5 seconds could go instead to an AoE cast heal that heals the entire raid collectivly each for 10k on each of 6 raid member which is a 60k heal instead of the 25-30k heal with the same global. do this nearly 30 times in a raid. and instead of doing those 25-30k heals dropping those 60k heals spread out not only pads the healing meters. it dishes out more HPS overall allowing an easier time to cap the raid between each scyth.

I'm not trying to be complicated. I'm not trying to do anything other then prove a point that until this tank is geared its a horrible decision to use him instead of someone more geared. its negaiting the entire point of having him there!

cory im in complete agreement. However, its hard to have fun playing when people die over and over due to big headed ideas or following the norm. All strats taht are suggested/work are usually good when the group comp/gear is simular to that of the one giving the adivce. I'm sure that pally tank in speculation was nearly 378 geared when they decided that they where the OP tank for the situation.

Lol, yes I must admit, I didnt read it all either. Ive seen enough posts like that to gloss over them. I dont get into theorycraft like a lot of people. I really dont like to see it as a numbers game.

Tank dropping too fast with two healers = Get a better geared tank

DPS dropping during enounter = better raid heals

Healers OOM too fast = bettter geared (or smarter) DPS/tank

Not a hard and fast rule, but a good general guide line.

Healers know how well geared their tanks are (the good ones at least). I am a Pally tank and my wife is a Disc priest. After a min or two into a fight she knows her mana is or is not going to keep this tank alive for the while. Raw numbers while impressive, can be a little overwhelming.

Has your warrior tried tanking the fight? If so and your raid has the same trouble, its not a tanking issue. The issue lies somewhere else.

and you know every time one comes ur getting hit with 90k dmg wether u want it or not it becomes very important that the healers can focus on EVERYONE and not just the tank and this becomes even more and more important the more stacks of adrenaline you get. 1-4 stacks aint a big healing deal get down to 6-7 that single one second difference is life or death by a longshot almost! in the duration of just 7 stacks ticking off thats a whole 90 seconds! and 60dk dmg every 1.5 thats 60 hits to the face taht gotta get healed through. the more that can be avoided the better!

I didn't enjoy casual - never got into pvp, and pve without the raiding is not fun at all. But then the raids simply required too much of your time. 4+ hrs raidind 3/4 times a week + at least 1-2hrs a night earning gold to pay for said raiding. Guess I got too old for the game ;-)

I didn't enjoy casual - never got into pvp, and pve without the raiding is not fun at all. But then the raids simply required too much of your time. 4+ hrs raidind 3/4 times a week + at least 1-2hrs a night earning gold to pay for said raiding. Guess I got too old for the game ;-)

with the new guild repair system, farming gold for repairs is a thing of the past.

Yeah that came in before I quit. I think part of the problem is when you build up a guild from nothing, then the guild gets trashed when 40 man turns into 25 man and 10 man raiding comes up, We attempted to hold a guild together for a year following the Burning crusade before I conceeded defeat, I went to a higher end guild and lasted 6 months before a combination of burnout/not really being about to put the energies into it led to me being kicked. I then joined a guild of much the same type as my previous, this time not an officer. They were 2 instances behind where I was with the high end guild but with my gear it was fairly easy (I did black temple in Tier 4....as a shaman healer, funny or what)

WOTLK came and i attempted to get into that but i lost interest and eventually decided to have a break, then my break became permanent, I haven't showin interest in Cataclysm. There are elements I miss, but its nice to have my time back.