Venetica - Steam Greenlight

November 27th, 2012, 11:53

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Interesting - I also very strongly identify with my character (hence my tolerance for RPGs relatively low on stats and with high degree of player skill involvment) but I can do that with pretty much any shape or gender of character. Robots? Hey I'll be a robot then. However I have a low tolerance for sinister roles (e.g. Assassins) see our recent discussion on GTA, AC, Hitman and their ilk. Maybe because I identify too much and the role than makes me uncomfortable?

I suppose so, but only you can answer that. Since I consider all of us equally capable of such "sinister" behavior - I don't feel uncomfortable playing such a role. I see it as a matter of upbringing and environment, and not a matter of inherent evil or similar human constructs.

That said, I play "myself" in those roles - as in how I would act under the same cirumstances and given the same persona. So, for an RPG - I play the assassin as I would behave as an assassin - not as an "evil" character. I can't do "evil" in games - because it conflicts too much with my own set of values.

Well I haven't read much about the subject, perhaps between empathy and identification it's just a matter of degree of the same element.

I always play female characters when I can because I prefer watch a nice ass if view from behind or nice figure during dialogs or other. But I can get used quite fast to play a male character like Geralt or other. It's strange to be able to identify to a robot or an alien and not to a women. But there's perhaps good reasons for that and it's perhaps very common, perhaps women are too concrete aliens?

I quote you both skipped the comparison with novels, movies or tv series. So no identification out of games? I wonder if really, in general, and for adult, video games involve more identification than novels for example.

The trouble you quoted about evil context making quit, I also suffered of it despite I have a very low identification level. I never finished Deus Ex exactly because of that. I don't think it's a problem linked with identification. I'd say I am the proof it's not linked to an identification mechanism as I suffer of the problem and don't feel I identify to the hero played. Well it's not a demonstration but a clue.

Originally Posted by Ihaterpg
Well I haven't read much about the subject, perhaps between empathy and identification it's just a matter of degree of the same element.

I always play female characters when I can because I prefer watch a nice ass if view from behind or nice figure during dialogs or other. But I can get used quite fast to play a male character like Geralt or other. It's strange to be able to identify to a robot or an alien and not to a women. But there's perhaps good reasons for that and it's perhaps very common, perhaps women are too concrete aliens?

I quote you both skipped the comparison with novels, movies or tv series. So no identification out of games? I wonder if really, in general, and for adult, video games involve more identification than novels for example.

The trouble you quoted about evil context making quit, I also suffered of it despite I have a very low identification level. I never finished Deus Ex exactly because of that. I don't think it's a problem linked with identification. I'd say I am the proof it's not linked to an identification mechanism as I suffer of the problem and don't feel I identify to the hero played. Well it's not a demonstration but a clue.

Well, in movies and books I might identify with characters - because I find I have an easy time putting myself in their shoes, but since I don't have to interact on their behalf, I don't immerse myself in their roles. That said, I still can't identify well with women, robots, monsters and so on - unless there's a specific reason that makes them stand out and be more akin to myself.

i love playing with females, most of the chars i make are them. Not really identifying w/ them, I more see them as my pets, or daughters or sometthing, like i'm an omnipotent god guiding them. Plus they tend to look cooler all decked out in nice armor and stuff.

— I dont dislike people - I just like them better when theyre not around

Given the fact that most of us here are males and we are "roleplaying" in a video game, wouldn't it make sense to play a female character? I always play fem. characters when I have the chance. I'm playing a redhead punker with tattoos allover the body and coloured language in Saints Row 3 as we speak.

Originally Posted by xSamhainxi love playing with females, most of the chars i make are them. Not really identifying w/ them, I more see them as my pets, or daughters or sometthing, like i'm an omnipotent god guiding them. Plus they tend to look cooler all decked out in nice armor and stuff.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Hehe, yeah, I think I get why some people love to play females now

It is interesting - you have eloquently described your reasons, and I totally get what you are saying. And ultimately we only have our own reasoning - and our wallets.

But the thing I am thinking about is the 'unintended consequences'. Right now there is a big debate about '#1Reason' talking about the dearth of women in gaming development - and a big part is the total misogyny and sexist 'dude-bro' attitudes of the gaming community at large.

In other words, while the reasons are different, the behavior is exactly as yours - they won't play as a female. Or see them as inferior. The as why an objectively superior FPS like No One Lives Forever with great critical acclaim had crappy sales. Everyone cites Tomb Raider , but that is the exception.

Originally Posted by txa1265
It is interesting - you have eloquently described your reasons, and I totally get what you are saying. And ultimately we only have our own reasoning - and our wallets.

But the thing I am thinking about is the 'unintended consequences'. Right now there is a big debate about '#1Reason' talking about the dearth of women in gaming development - and a big part is the total misogyny and sexist 'dude-bro' attitudes of the gaming community at large.

In other words, while the reasons are different, the behavior is exactly as yours - they won't play as a female. Or see them as inferior. The as why an objectively superior FPS like No One Lives Forever with great critical acclaim had crappy sales. Everyone cites Tomb Raider , but that is the exception.

Oh, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. There's no such thing as objectively superior - no matter how much you try to claim it.

I found NOLF to be a decent shooter with a bit more to it than the average shooter, but I despised the setting - and the female protagonist was not the primary issue for me. I hate that 60s spy stuff. I wouldn't call it superior to much, frankly - but I recognise that a lot of people loved it. Then again, I find that a big segment tends to love things that are different because they're different, not because they're inherently better. Also, NOLF was very much a male version of a female protagonist - and it was VERY much about killing people by the dozens. Women tend to favor other activities.

But it's a male dominated industry - and I've tried hard to get women to open up to it and they're just not interested for the most part. There are MANY mainstream AAA games out there with female protagonists - like Mass Effect, Skyrim, WoW, and so on. That doesn't seem to have mattered all that much - women still don't really enjoy gaming as it is now. Well, not true - for MMOs, there are A LOT of them playing - after the success of WoW.

So, I don't buy the primarily male protagonist thing being the reason more women don't play.

The reason is simple enough - and, as you mention, I think it has much more to do with women not designing and developing mainstream games. The lead developer positions are almost always exclusively male - and that ties into the culture of IT - I think, which is a very male oriented business.

So, if women want more games designed for them - they should start being genuinely interested in the development side of the industry. I don't accept that the developers themselves are particularly sexist or "dude-bro" people. In fact, I think it's the opposite in many cases, where "nerds" (developers tend to be nerds) really appreciate women in their field. I don't buy that it's not open to women. It's a simple matter of women not being drawn to gaming and its potential - because they see it as predominantly violence oriented. They're not wrong, of course, but I'd like to claim that they're completely ignorant of the depth and weight some games have, as well.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Oh, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. There's no such thing as objectively superior - no matter how much you try to claim it.

So, if women want more games designed for them - they should start being genuinely interested in the development side of the industry. I don't accept that the developers themselves are particularly sexist or "dude-bro" people. In fact, I think it's the opposite in many cases, where "nerds" (developers tend to be nerds) really appreciate women in their field. I don't buy that it's not open to women. It's a simple matter of women not being drawn to gaming and its potential - because they see it as predominantly violence oriented. They're not wrong, of course, but I'd like to claim that they're completely ignorant of the depth and weight some games have, as well.

Regarding NOLF, all I am saying is that it is one of the better games in the genre, something that is almost universally agreed.

As for development … you are simply dead wrong. There is a HUGE sexist streak in gamers and coders, where so many have been taught from an early age that boys are better than girls at STEM fields (which IS 'objectively' wrong). Society pushes boys and girls in different directions, and reinforces that by sexist treatment of women who choose technology fields. It is better than in my university days a couple of decades or so ago, but it is still very much true. Check out the #1ReasonWhy hashtag on twitter to see what is going on.

Originally Posted by txa1265
Regarding NOLF, all I am saying is that it is one of the better games in the genre, something that is almost universally agreed.

Yeah, but it doesn't prove anything - not even remotely. How many great games have failed over the years? Doesn't have anything to do with gender - unless we can prove that's the reason. Again, Tomb Raider continues to be a massive success - and it's not unlike a shooter - so how come if we're all so sexist?

As for development … you are simply dead wrong. There is a HUGE sexist streak in gamers and coders, where so many have been taught from an early age that boys are better than girls at STEM fields (which IS 'objectively' wrong). Society pushes boys and girls in different directions, and reinforces that by sexist treatment of women who choose technology fields. It is better than in my university days a couple of decades or so ago, but it is still very much true. Check out the #1ReasonWhy hashtag on twitter to see what is going on.

Based on what evidence, beyond your perception this is the case?

I'm not talking about gamers - I'm talking about developers. How do you know that the majority are sexist? Because that doesn't reflect my perception at all.

I don't want to get into an argument about what's objective and what's not - but I ask you to stop using it, because you have no idea what it means.

I think there's a perception of sexism that's based on exaggeration. That's not to say gamers can't be sexist - especially young gamers. But people are sexist in all areas and all industries. The reason gamers are perceived to be MORE sexist - is because they're mostly males. When you have 90% males in a room and 10% females - do you think sexism is more or less noticable? It doesn't take a lot of sexist remarks to make someone feel uncomfortable.

Human beings don't change their level of sexism because they play games - and we're all subject to these flaws.

Gaming isn't male oriented because of sexism - just because you say so. You have to prove it, and I'm saying I think it's bullshit.

Do you think males are in the minority when it comes to horse riding because of female sexism?

I sent you to Twitter, and perhaps to the Web in general because there IS loads of evidence. And I will use 'evidence' rather than 'objectively true' … but will NOT drop to 'appearance', because there is simply too much evidence to ignore.

Gaming is male oriented because early computers and engineers were ALL male - not because they were better or smarter than their female peers, but because pretty much every society in the world has a structure in which engineer-like work is considered 'unlady-like'.

It is pretty simple sociology - people cast the world in their image. The corporate executive 'old boys network' existed because society backed males (and in the western world, white males) and they chose their friends and people who looked like them. Same in tech fields - it is simply a comfort thing … and this is proven well enough through the decades.

Gamers and game developers are not a special breed pro or con - because when put into an predominantly male environment there are different norms that exist than in a truly mixed environment. Add to that the work environment fostered in the overwhelming majority of game shops (informal, described as 'frat house' by many), and you can easily see why there would be an implicit barrier to entry for women.

There are plenty of examples where imbalance is self-perpetuating, where men entering an office dominated by women see it as a dream initially but find the environment quickly very difficult to navigate.

BUT … and this is a HUGE but - it is FACT that the entire world is 'male dominated'. The arab world is extremist in this to the point that women are often property of their fathers or husbands, but women are always the lesser. Women earn less, have fewer opportunities, and are legally discriminated against in much of the world. So citing one tiny niche against a multi-billio $ industry doesn't even qualify as a counter-argument.

In more and more fields, as attitudes in western countries normalize we are seeing much better levels of women in industry. Engineering/Science schools that were 10:1 male/female when I was looking at schools 30 years ago are now 2:1 or better. And there are loads of engineers and scientists in high-profile positions that I interact with - and speaking at a technical conference is no longer looking out at a 'sea of men' like it was just 20 years ago.

However … the gaming industry has not kept pace. It is an anomaly and recently a number of folks have been speaking up and trying to figure out why. The basic answer is that it is NOT about the women - after all, these are just design and programming jobs - but instead about the male-centric attitudes and environments at development shops.

Originally Posted by xSamhainx
i love playing with females, most of the chars i make are them. Not really identifying w/ them, I more see them as my pets, or daughters or sometthing, like i'm an omnipotent god guiding them. Plus they tend to look cooler all decked out in nice armor and stuff.

OMG same consequences but different causes, I think. Previous posts in that thread made me realized I wasn'tů hahem I was perhaps a bit weird and special. But you force me pinpoint it because in no way I like the idea to be mixed with what you wrote…

I'm not gay but my heroes tend be female, favorite TV series are most with strong main female hero/character, and more uncommon points like that, so I play most RPG using a female character but possibly the nice ass macho thing is fake and it's more I enjoy watch and "participate/contribute" to the adventures of females heroes.. well or I'm pure macho and they are just pets? What's sure is that I share with you the total non identification to the game hero, but still could have empathy for it. I also agree female hero look cooler.

The women "earn less" argument can only be true overall but in occidental countries, or some, or mine, it needs be look at as a fact a lot more complex than it seems.

In my country much more women work 4 days or 3 days a week by choice and they are still counted as one in statistics, it's pointless to highlight how this can low down earning comparison. Is it really constraint or choices, it's very quick to say it's just constraint.

Also women that don't beat as much to win the higher place with more responsibility is it by nature or by education? Is really women are as aggressive so pushed to beat as much for something? Is it really just their education that push them be less aggressive?

Many people don't make a work with a strong link with their student learning but in general girls tend be better during student time, but are they better or it's just their education that push them to be more wise at younger age? If you consider the second option you just get women with better grades not really better later for works and it lowers statistics when after you compare student grades and professions.

I don't pretend there's equality, just that it's a lot more complex than it seems.

i really am genuinely surprised to see you Dart not fully behind playing a female character, just on ethical reasons alone. I'd think you'd be totally against a male, white protagonist. That's just such a remnant of the unjustly male-dominated and capitalist gaming culture, poor women left cowering in the kitchen of booth babes and advertisements w/ the consoles unplugged. Not as bad as Jemy, who probably jumps at the change to play a gay black dwarf just to prove how open-minded and enlightened he is, but still, this… I'm shocked, Dart. Youre unable to tap into your female side.

You sexist pig!

— I dont dislike people - I just like them better when theyre not around

Originally Posted by xSamhainx
i really am genuinely surprised to see you Dart not fully behind playing a female character, just on ethical reasons alone. I'd think you'd be totally against a male, white protagonist. That's just such a remnant of the unjustly male-dominated and capitalist gaming culture, poor women left cowering in the kitchen of booth babes and advertisements w/ the consoles unplugged. Not as bad as Jemy, who probably jumps at the change to play a gay black dwarf just to prove how open-minded and enlightened he is, but still, this… I'm shocked, Dart. Youre unable to tap into your female side.

You sexist pig!

Why, I'm flattered

Seriously, though, I'm all for playing female characters - I just can't do it and get the full enjoyment out of the experience. I always go for what maximises my enjoyment.

As for the whole sexism thing, I think it's stupid to single out gaming. Again, it's because of how the industry and the hobby evolved from the beginning. It's been male all the way - but it's not going to last. It will change slowly - and it's not unique and unchanging in that way. No one can claim that there's the same percentage of male vs female today as there was in the 1970s and 1980s. I don't know the numbers - but everything I know about human nature tells me that can't be right. Especially in this post-WoW era.

But campaigns against sexism should be generalised and not focused on places where there are more males - at least if any understanding is to be achieved. Again, human beings are sexist - and it has NOTHING to do with gaming. Females are just as sexist - because it's about ignorance, and ignorance is a universal trait.

Also, it would suit a lot of males and a lot of females to realise that there are differences between us - and pointing them out need not constitute sexism.