Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon?

S250 makes us consider this question, "Is the 3rd Season of Animated, the final season?"

It seems just as the new Animated series was beginning to win over fans, and really hit its stride, bringing in new and interesting characters and plot lines, and having more than a few cliff hangers from Season 2 to try to wrap up for us, we hear this possible rumor. But when S250 is involved it is not really a rumor, but ends up being a fact quite often. We hear not only the end is near for the show, but he also brings us information that the season will feature the death of a major character, and that there seemed to be a season 4 in the works as well.

So if you are on the prowl for new animated news, you may want to check out animated's chief designer Derrick Wyatt's blog at 'A Delightful Tedium' to see if he says anything about this, or other topics of interest. To this point, he is expectedly quiet about it.

You can see S250's original post here. Warning for the spoiler of who makes the ultimate sacrifice is also there in the thread.

Share your thoughts on the possible end of yet another era in Transformers history below.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (883983)
Posted by Samsonator on February 14th, 2009 @ 7:49am CST

If they're axing animated, I hope they've got a damned good idea of what they're doing for the next post-movie toyline and series... I'd hate to have to lose faith in the franchise and devote all my collecting time to Gundam models...

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (883985)
Posted by ACIDSTORM on February 14th, 2009 @ 7:57am CST

Perfect time to finish i think. animated will end and ROTF will begin .i reckon it will go on for a while and then hopefully in the near future i think they should release a much darker tf series for a slightly older audience.TFA was TOO kiddy and the characters designs looked a bit retarded after a while.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884000)
Posted by omega666 on February 14th, 2009 @ 8:35am CST

Good. They need to come up with something better.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884004)
Posted by decepticonjon on February 14th, 2009 @ 8:47am CST

SPOILER:

Just below:

prowl dies in season 3 saving prime

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884011)
Posted by Seibermore on February 14th, 2009 @ 9:03am CST

Oh no! Optimus is gonna die again. Shit!

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884028)
Posted by powersteamracing on February 14th, 2009 @ 9:37am CST

This sucks. Although I hardly watched TFA, I was hoping it'd stick around long enough for my kids to some day enjoy. I can't really see how they would end it. For the few episodes I watched, they had very interesting plots, some of which even surprised me.

I even fall into the catergory of "being won over". When TFA first came out I thought it was retarded, honestly. But after seeing the toys, and then watching a few more episodes, it really, really grew on me.

So sad.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884039)
Posted by dragons on February 14th, 2009 @ 10:02am CST

It would be a massive shame if Animated does not get as many episodes aired as Armada or Energon.

Exactly. I hated the Dreamwave comic because it was so boring, so long and drawn out, so dark and brooding. It lost it's spark as being fun and adventurous. That's it! It stopped being an adventure, and turned into a story. Just a plain 'ol run of the mill story, but with giant robots in it.

The Movieverse is dark, but there's still enough fun and wow factor in it to make you feel like a kid.

I don't want TFs to get rid of their youthful origins. I don't want them to be matured beyond a certain point. I want them to be toys with a cartoon and a movie or two.

This was always meant to be a kid's toyline first and foremost. We seem to forget that.

And before anyone else mentions Batman again, or Superman. Well, here's the problem...

A superhero is aimed at kids as well, even though some of their origins can be extremely dark. Batman The Brave & The Bold is a perfect example of this. It's fun, with enough ties to his past to make it Batman.

Superman Returns was just dark and took us to depths in his character that we just didn't need to see. He's Superman, he's not supposed to have flaws, or at least ones that weren't quite so...evident.

The Dark Knight, while a very good film, is just too friggin' dark, and definitely is a watch once in a while kinda flick. It's emotionally draining, and beats the crap out of you by the end of it.

No. I don't want that for TransFormers. I don't want that for kids. Does anyone remember when we allowed kids to just be kids, and they had fun? I do. Let's not change that.

i think it may be good if they made transformers show with little more darker atmospher to it just look how popular batman the animated series, / gotham knights turned out with how seasons it made, superman animated series, justice league, & justice league unlimited all 4 where very popular searis with kids & figures & the storeys wehre very dark very little blood comedy here & there but succese batman brave & the bold cgi makes it lookg to me everything else i cant stand to watch it feels like im watch batman in powerpuff girls art style.

batman brave & bold is in a league of its own it doesnt stack up to hte other batman animated shows in the past in batman brave & the bold they some heroes enimes static shock hes an enime in the show but in the animted show from justice league hes heroe not vilian hes the same in the comicbook as well & metmorpho hes an allie/heroe i dont like batman brave & bold ill be surprised if it makes to season 3.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884059)
Posted by Megatron Wolf on February 14th, 2009 @ 11:26am CST

Oh well. Cant say im going to shed a tear over this. I wasnt a big fan of animated. There were a few good points but not enough. I hope the next cartoon is based on Cybertron and has no humans. On that note i hope they kill that kid off. I doubt it since its a kid but i can always hope. I feel Prowl or Optimus is going to bite the dust. Prime to stick with the recycled ideas and Prowl just because that was the first one that came to mind when i read they were killing some one off. If he goes itll be sacrificing himself to save the world. Like Dinobot.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884080)
Posted by Baha08 on February 14th, 2009 @ 12:24pm CST

My biggest fear is that they bring a new anime line in. If there is one bad idea, it is to make cheap cartoons. That's what the anime line was, most likely how it was also extremely long and drawn out over the span of three different series.

And if this is the final series for Animated, you know how bad it will be since they just introduced a bunch of new characters and such. How are they meant to get screen time and enough to give them character?

It's really bad unless the next series is bringing back something like Beast Wars or other ideas that change the franchise for the better, hell even the worse will do as long as it's not an anime series. Beast Machines did better then those sets.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884085)
Posted by bagofshhh on February 14th, 2009 @ 12:36pm CST

I would think that if any Autobot would die this season, it would be Ultra Magnus. That way Optimus can finally ascend to his rightful place as leader of the Autobots before the show ends.

But since in the TFA universe "Prime" is a rank, wouldn't he actually become Optimus Magnus?? LOL

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884101)
Posted by Kryptoniteking on February 14th, 2009 @ 1:31pm CST

Today is the first time, in a long time, that I've pulled off a backward somersault! This is the best news I've heard in a long EFFIN time!

Today, at Toys-R-Us, looking for TF Mighty Muggs, I walked past the TF section (missing it) twice. The section was across from the Bakugan toys and all the kids in the aisle were all about them. There were about 6 various TFA toys, a handful of Universe toys and 2 25th Anniversary Optimus Prime toys. These took up less than 1/8th of the aisle. Bakugan was stocked and I was having to keep from stepping on kids clammering for them.

All the buzz that I've been hearing from friends that have kids is that Bakugan is the $#!+ when it comes to 5 to 9 year old boys. Bakugan is kicking TFA in the ratings... On television and in the stores.

Buh-bye TFA... It was doomed for failure from its inception... As predicted.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884109)
Posted by Autobot032 on February 14th, 2009 @ 1:46pm CST

Kryptoniteking wrote:Today is the first time, in a long time, that I've pulled off a backward somersault! This is the best news I've heard in a long EFFIN time!

Today, at Toys-R-Us, looking for TF Mighty Muggs, I walked past the TF section (missing it) twice. The section was across from the Bakugan toys and all the kids in the aisle were all about them. There were about 6 various TFA toys, a handful of Universe toys and 2 25th Anniversary Optimus Prime toys. These took up less than 1/8th of the aisle. Bakugan was stocked and I was having to keep from stepping on kids clammering for them.

All the buzz that I've been hearing from friends that have kids is that Bakugan is the $#!+ when it comes to 5 to 9 year old boys. Bakugan is kicking TFA in the ratings... On television and in the stores.

Buh-bye TFA... It was doomed for failure from its inception... As predicted.

*claps* I commend you for being so wrong! Yay! Good for you!

The show was not a ratings loser. In fact, it earned Cartoon Network some of it's highest ratings yet.The show is being scuttled in favor of focusing on ROTF.

The toys have not failed, their sales garnered enough business that the line will run alongside ROTF on the shelves. Universe is taking a hiatus (outside of a store exclusive or two.)

Any other inaccurate postings you'd like to make? We have plenty of server space for the lulz.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884185)
Posted by Sabrblade on February 14th, 2009 @ 3:43pm CST

Why does Prowl have to die?!!!!

He's the guy who got me into this series! If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed this eries as much as I do now!

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884360)
Posted by Autobot032 on February 14th, 2009 @ 8:09pm CST

Sabrblade wrote:Why does Prowl have to die?!!!!

He's the guy who got me into this series! If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed this eries as much as I do now!

Spoiler, man! Geez.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884371)
Posted by Sabrblade on February 14th, 2009 @ 8:38pm CST

Autobot032 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Why does Prowl have to die?!!!!

He's the guy who got me into this series! If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed this eries as much as I do now!

Spoiler, man! Geez.

Sorry. It's just that this really shook me. I mean, Prowl's my favorite TFA character. I don't want him to die. If anyone should die, it should be Ultra Magnus. Have him go out with a bang, and then have Rodimus Prime become the new Magnus and have Optimus get Sentinel's job. Then, after Rodimus' term finishes, have Optimus step up as the new Supreme Commander.

But they shouldn't kill off Prowl. Kill off Ultra Magnus. Or better yet, kill off Sentinel.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884405)
Posted by Autobot032 on February 14th, 2009 @ 9:59pm CST

Sabrblade wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Why does Prowl have to die?!!!!

He's the guy who got me into this series! If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed this eries as much as I do now!

Spoiler, man! Geez.

Sorry. It's just that this really shook me. I mean, Prowl's my favorite TFA character. I don't want him to die. If anyone should die, it should be Ultra Magnus. Have him go out with a bang, and then have Rodimus Prime become the new Magnus and have Optimus get Sentinel's job. Then, after Rodimus' term finishes, have Optimus step up as the new Supreme Commander.

But they shouldn't kill off Prowl. Kill off Ultra Magnus. Or better yet, kill off Sentinel.

I'd be fine with Ultra Magnus or Sentinel Prime biting the bullet. Both of them are bastards.

Sentinel is a self serving piece of junk (but a really awesome figure).

Ultra Magnus is no better than Megatron. After seeing how he treated Optimus, and then reading the comic that came with Jetfire/Jetstorm, he's nothing short of a monster.

His creation of the jet twins was nothing short of twisted.

Yeah, he an Sentinel can take a long walk off of a very short pier into the deepest pond in hell.

...lol

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884725)
Posted by OPTIMUS MAGNUS on February 15th, 2009 @ 5:31pm CST

bagofshhh wrote:I would think that if any Autobot would die this season, it would be Ultra Magnus. That way Optimus can finally ascend to his rightful place as leader of the Autobots before the show ends.

But since in the TFA universe "Prime" is a rank, wouldn't he actually become Optimus Magnus?? LOL

f Prime were the one to die then this would be true! Prime would become Optimus Magnus indeed! Lol...that would be sweet to have an Optimus Magnus toy.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884744)
Posted by Autobot032 on February 15th, 2009 @ 6:49pm CST

OPTIMUS MAGNUS wrote:

bagofshhh wrote:I would think that if any Autobot would die this season, it would be Ultra Magnus. That way Optimus can finally ascend to his rightful place as leader of the Autobots before the show ends.

But since in the TFA universe "Prime" is a rank, wouldn't he actually become Optimus Magnus?? LOL

f Prime were the one to die then this would be true! Prime would become Optimus Magnus indeed! Lol...that would be sweet to have an Optimus Magnus toy.

Unless Ultra is the rank, which would fit considering he's the Supreme Commander. (I think that's what he's called.)

Magnus Prime to Ultra Magnus. Hmm. Or just Magnus. Hmm... all he needs is a tin foil kilt.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (884781)
Posted by Sabrblade on February 15th, 2009 @ 8:51pm CST

Autobot032 wrote:

OPTIMUS MAGNUS wrote:

bagofshhh wrote:I would think that if any Autobot would die this season, it would be Ultra Magnus. That way Optimus can finally ascend to his rightful place as leader of the Autobots before the show ends.

But since in the TFA universe "Prime" is a rank, wouldn't he actually become Optimus Magnus?? LOL

f Prime were the one to die then this would be true! Prime would become Optimus Magnus indeed! Lol...that would be sweet to have an Optimus Magnus toy.

Unless Ultra is the rank, which would fit considering he's the Supreme Commander. (I think that's what he's called.)

Magnus Prime to Ultra Magnus. Hmm. Or just Magnus. Hmm... all he needs is a tin foil kilt.

Magnus is the rank. Both the "Rise of Safeguard" comic and Rodimus Prime's bio say so.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (885468)
Posted by Mechanurgist on February 17th, 2009 @ 11:27am CST

Now that I've come to enjoy TFA a lot I hope the series keeps on going, especially with more action on Cybertron. I really want to see Wheeljack cooking up all kinds of cool weapons and gizmos.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (885816)
Posted by Rodimus2006 on February 17th, 2009 @ 8:31pm CST

I saw on one site were someone asked in a interview to one of the head guys on the show if the rumors were true his reponse was.

I AM SORRY, I CAN'T COMMENT ON THIS.

1. Means it is indeed true

2. Isnt true and they cant comment until season 3 officialy airs on TV.

3. If it is indeed true the reason I think it is getting the axe cause they have another series in the works that wlll be shown after the release of Revenge of the fallen maybe sometime in Fall/Winter 09.

Money Troubles they dont have the money to continue Animated

Coninuation of Animated but it will be alot diffrent.

No More Transformers until somtime 2010

Lets just watch season 3 of Animated then when Animated season 3 is over with we can worry about the next TF Project in the works.

Look I am just glad that season 3 is coming out that maybe finally we can get some more questions answered.

I cant wait too see all the new autobots and decipticons and Dai Atlas& Alpha Trion in action.

Whatever Season 3 has in store i know it will be even better than season 2 was I just wish we can know when the darn thing will be on TV Finaly and what the names of each of the episodes are and what the season story plot is about.

Bring on Animated Season 3 I am tired of waiting I have been waiting for 10 or 11 months now.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (886726)
Posted by Sabrblade on February 19th, 2009 @ 3:36pm CST

Rodimus2006 wrote:I saw on one site were someone asked in a interview to one of the head guys on the show if the rumors were true his reponse was.

I AM SORRY, I CAN'T COMMENT ON THIS.

1. Means it is indeed true

2. Isnt true and they cant comment until season 3 officialy airs on TV.

3. If it is indeed true the reason I think it is getting the axe cause they have another series in the works that wlll be shown after the release of Revenge of the fallen maybe sometime in Fall/Winter 09.

That was way back when this news was first announced. Now, s250 has confirmed it. Usually when s250 says something like this, 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be true (though I really can't remember a time where he's been wrong before).

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (886817)
Posted by Rodimus2006 on February 19th, 2009 @ 6:53pm CST

Whatever the case is about animated I am glad to see Season 3 will be on shortly finally after all that long waiting whoo 10 or 11 months since the conclusion of season 2 back last June.

On people saying about they cant get all this stuff into 1 new season.

I think that they can.

1. Each episode of Animated last around 22 minutes.

2. They are 13 episodes in this season.

3. The total running time will be 286 minutes.

Look how much they crammed into the 2 part conclusion of Animated S2 last year.

If the series is written well and put together good then I think that they can give animated a good send off.

Look no series ends perfect, some series end wierd with cliff hanger parts leaving us with our heads stratching saying WTF!!!.

Many series dont necessarily end but sort of leave with hints of a possible continuation of the series if the plan on going back to it later on case in point would be Futurama, the Futurama movies and the last Futurama Into the Wild Green Yonder.

While it marks the ending of the series it does leave the possiblity of seeing it returning sometime in the future.

Maybe this will be the concept with Season 3 ending sort of like Futurama-Into the Wild Green Yonder.

But I am just really hyped up for season 3 seeing the new sketch designs and spoilers about season 3 makes me wanna see the series even more regardless of Animated coming to an end.

I have loved this new series alot and it reminds me so much of G1 but they have been a few bad epsiodes here and there but what series dosent have their rotten eggs in it.

Overall I give Animated a 4 out 5

I cant wait to see what the next Transformers project will be but for now I am just going to concentrate on Animated and Revenge of the Fallen.

I am 27 years old and I love animated and I cant wait to see what will be in Season 3 I was very happily suprised in season 2 while season 1 took me awhile to get into that one.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (889504)
Posted by SentinelA on February 24th, 2009 @ 3:42pm CST

I'm dissappointed that they're cancelling this series. It's much better than the Japanese voice-over cartoons. I'd love a more mature cartoon. I'd love a new CGI series. I'd love a series based on Transformers before they came to Earth. I doubt I'll ever see any of these.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (889536)
Posted by Coughler on February 24th, 2009 @ 4:31pm CST

SentinelA wrote:I'm dissappointed that they're cancelling this series. It's much better than the Japanese voice-over cartoons. I'd love a more mature cartoon. I'd love a new CGI series. I'd love a series based on Transformers before they came to Earth. I doubt I'll ever see any of these.

There will never be mature themed shows of popular franchises that are aimed at KIDS

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (889541)
Posted by Sabrblade on February 24th, 2009 @ 4:40pm CST

Coughler wrote:

SentinelA wrote:I'm dissappointed that they're cancelling this series. It's much better than the Japanese voice-over cartoons. I'd love a more mature cartoon. I'd love a new CGI series. I'd love a series based on Transformers before they came to Earth. I doubt I'll ever see any of these.

There will never be mature themed shows of popular franchises that are aimed at KIDS

Then what would you call Beast Machines?

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (889567)
Posted by Tigertrack on February 24th, 2009 @ 5:48pm CST

Sabrblade wrote:

Coughler wrote:

SentinelA wrote:I'm dissappointed that they're cancelling this series. It's much better than the Japanese voice-over cartoons. I'd love a more mature cartoon. I'd love a new CGI series. I'd love a series based on Transformers before they came to Earth. I doubt I'll ever see any of these.

There will never be mature themed shows of popular franchises that are aimed at KIDS

Then what would you call Beast Machines?

GI Joe Resolute is very violent, and not aimed at kids.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (889745)
Posted by Rodimus2006 on February 25th, 2009 @ 1:34am CST

Look I am starting to think that this is a mis-leading info campaign to throw fans off from worrying about another season after season 3 ends.

Why would they just go up and cancel the series, it is doing really well in the ratings, it is one of the most poplular transformers series in a good long while.

Plus they are introducing a ton of new bots in this upcoming season were they all will not get enough screen time.

I think the series should end after season 4 that should be enough time to give each of the new bots and give animated a better send off and introduce a new ultimate bad guy towards the end of the series.

Onl reason I think that animated is getting canceled is they have another show in the works and may get released sometime next year or so.

Other than that I see no feesable reasons whatso ever to cancel out animated.

I think this is a misleading campaign sort of like how they are doing with Revenge of the Fallen.

Until I hear from an official "OFFICIAL" source such as a interview from one of the head officials from the show such as Derek Wyatt or a representive from Hasbro/CN who over sees the show I will not believe anything about Animated getting the axe after this season.

It makes no sense to me.

Overall I am glad we dont have to wait that much longer for animated season 3 anymore.

Also I suspect it to be another great season also I cant wait to see what it is about and how it will end.

But I know the season will once again leave us with more questions than answers such as season 2 did.

But I cant wait for it to come back on, lets not worry about the cancelation of animated for the time being.

Lets just set back and watch animated it will be on for a good couple of months.

Then when season 3 ends its run then we can worry about the fate of animated and what the next transformers project will be about.

Now if we can just get the air dates for

The Boondocks Season 3

The Venture Bros. Season 4

I havent heard if they were suppose to be another Boondocks or not not much talk on that series as of yet.

As for The Venture Bros. this will be the series finale airing sometime this fall.

Umm I wonder who will die ultimate, what kind of revelations will be revealed, and will Venture Industries get destroyed somehow.

Suprises me it is still standing this long, for me I didnt care to much about Season 3 cause it was about character origins and had too many flash backs.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (889832)
Posted by cybercat on February 25th, 2009 @ 9:44am CST

Autobot032 wrote:I'd be fine with Ultra Magnus or Sentinel Prime biting the bullet. Both of them are bastards.

Sentinel is a self serving piece of junk (but a really awesome figure).

Ultra Magnus is no better than Megatron. After seeing how he treated Optimus, and then reading the comic that came with Jetfire/Jetstorm, he's nothing short of a monster.

His creation of the jet twins was nothing short of twisted.

Yeah, he an Sentinel can take a long walk off of a very short pier into the deepest pond in hell.

...lol

Well, that's really exactly why they can't be the ones who die. Killing off the unlikeable never works--we're left with only the likeable guys, and then where does all the conflict go.

Also, killing off a very very beloved character is bound to get an emotional response. And when it comes to any sort of narrative (novel, cartoon, movie), getting the audience to *feel* anything is really the whole point, innit?

I remember when Roy Fokker died in Robotech. I remember the day, even--where I was, what I was eating for breakfast, etc. Probably a formative moment of my life, because up to that point, cartoon characters *didn't die!* I even cried. Did that make me stop watching Robotech? Or hate the series? Oh no. I had to see if the others appreciated his loss.

Felt the same way in every major Transformers continuity in which Starscream bites it. Part of me says, well, jeez, there's just no point any more. But I keep watching anyway, and eventually get over my disgruntlement.

HK, currently gruntled.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (891019)
Posted by oldskooltf on February 27th, 2009 @ 11:44am CST

I am sad to hear this. I'll admit that I was against this series when I first saw the leaked youtube vids from episode 1.

But I gave it a chance and found it to be my favorite cartoon series ever for TF in the categories of characters and stories. I still prefer more classic looking TFs, but I've moved past that and can accept it now.

I bought Season 2 and will get Season 1 and 3.

This series is so much better written than Armada, Energon, and Cybertron... and yet it will be shorter? That IS a major shame.

IMHO, they should make 6 seasons of this cartoon.

So many characters are funny and enjoyable to watch... Starscream, his clones, Blitzwing, Megatron, Wreck-Gar, Dinobots, Bulkhead, Ratchet, Prowl, ...

The voice acting is awesome, the links to G1 are everywhere, and also links to Beast Wars and even a little to the live action movie.

To me it deserves so much more than 3 seasons.

Re: Transformers Animated: Is The End On The Horizon? (893240)
Posted by Cobalt Prime on March 3rd, 2009 @ 9:08pm CST

oldskooltf wrote:This series is so much better written than Armada, Energon, and Cybertron... and yet it will be shorter? That IS a major shame.

IMHO, they should make 6 seasons of this cartoon.

So many characters are funny and enjoyable to watch......

The voice acting is awesome, the links to G1 are everywhere, and also links to Beast Wars and even a little to the live action movie.

To me it deserves so much more than 3 seasons.

You hit it right on the head. It's the first TF series since Beast Wars that makes sense and is actually enjoyable to watch. So as with all good, quality things, it must die so that some retarded garbage like the Adventures of Flapjack can take its place and last season after season with no end in sight.

I've seen this happen so many times in my forty years that while it is immensely disappointing, it is not at all surprising.