You can prove Neptune exists yourself. Simply buy a telescope, learn how to use it and point it at the sky. Done.

You can visit Mt. Vernon. You can travel to Italy.

What do I need to do to see this god fellow?

Sure, many things can be faked. Can and are faked. Humans are a gullible lot. Given we are gullible, the critical thinker's alarm bells go off when someone tells us a tall tale and oops! there is no way to verify the tall tale.

What are the odds Neptune exists vs. a magic rabbi drove demons into pigs and marched them into the sea?

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Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

I don't care if you do not believe in God. I don't care if you think creation could come about by chance instead of a Creator. I know in my heart and confused mind there is a God. Just having a difficult time how He blesses blesses blesses some and well others, pooh on them . . . . .

Hi dadamsjr. Isn't it a bit contradicting to say you're both confused and certain about something? For example:

"My understanding is fuzzy and unclear about x, but I know and am certain of x!" <-- That doesn't make much sense.

When you say "I know in my heart", what does that really mean? Your heart is nothing more than a muscular organ that pumps blood. You might as well be saying "I know with all my pancreas there is a God". I've found that when people use that expression they are acknowledging they don't actually have any evidence and it boils down to hoping or wishful thinking. You'll never hear someone with ample knowledge on a subject say "I know in my heart". Instead they'll careful lay out their facts and evidence.

There is no doubt in my mind there is a God. Just a God I do not comprehend.

That does not compute. You don't doubt there's a being you don't understand. ????

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Still believing these past few years even though the college I attended from 2007 - 2012, it seemed they were intent on "proving" evolution which would then "prove" there is no Creator.

Evolution has already been proven. Many, many times. And that, in and of itself, does not prove there is no creator. So wherever you got that idea, it's wrong.

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Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator. Maybe He did not create the Earth in a literal seven days, maybe the Earth is much older than 6,000 years - but if the Bible is "true" and He created a "Man", this "Man" was not the form of a new born baby but a form that even though a few seconds "old" would have the appearance of being (in our measurement) 19 - 20 years old.

Evidence such as what? And I reject that the bible is "true", in quotes or not. Because if it was true then yhwy is an evil, egotistical, genocidal, vengeful, petty bully.

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But just because there is a Creator, doesn't mean to me anymore He is as caring and loving as He declares Himself to be. Just look at what He did to Job. We are taught He knows everything from the beginning of time until the end of time. So He knew what Job's response would be. Yet He allowed Satan to abuse Job (who He loved) to prove a point that did not need proving. I don't think any rational human being would allow someone they "loved" to be abused by their enemy just to prove that person would still love them. I just want to rip the book Job out of the Bible.

But you believe the bible is true. THIS is the god you believe in??? No wonder you're struggling. It's called "cognitive dissonence."

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Anyhow, my initial question and "reasoning" currently is that people of all faiths pray for their loved ones to recover. Some recover, some do not. According to the fundamentalist theology, God only answers the prayers of Christians. If that is correct, then the ones of the "incorrect" faiths recovered not because God "healed" them. And for the ones of the "correct" faith who did recover, they would not have recovered regardless of "answered prayers" if they had not received proper and timely medical treatment. If you are bleeding profusely and don't bandage your wound, all the prayers in the world are not going to prevent you from bleeding to death.

and yet there is no statistical difference between those who pray and are healed and those who do not pray and are healed (and the revers). What does that tell you?

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Finally, I have had "answered prayer" in the last few months. I was asking God why He blinded Paul which brought about Paul's conversion and yet did not blind others which would have resulted in their conversion. Seemed pretty unfair to me that Paul got a "huge red light" and thus became a Christian and others who could / would have became Christians if they had only had the same "huge red light" did not get such. God "told" me three things. 1. He did not have to answer me. 2. However He would. 3. He knew Paul would remain faithful despite horrible persecutions, stonings, whippings, beatings etc. Someone else that would have received the "huge red light" would have quit later, so that is why God "chose" Paul and not the others.

Can you differentiate how god "told" you these things from your imagination?

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You will never convince me there is no God. Clearly there is.

You will never convice me there is a god. Clearly there is not. This world behaves exactly as if there is no diety. Once we unlock the mysteries of abiogenesis, the only hidey-hole god will have left is the creation of the universe--in other words, he will have zero signifigance in our daily lives. Or, we'll all finally realize he just ain't there.

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What I am having issue with is His personal involvement in the lives of Christians. Ok, I have not led a "good" Christian life - done many things that were deliberate violations of good Christian conduct. But I have seen good solid Christians have troubles troubles troubles. Where is their "life abundant"? Then as I said, there are some "Christian" leaders who use the Bible to enrich theirselves. Making millions and lavishly spending it on theirselves while others go without. And God seems to turn a blind eye.

Why can't you take the next logical step?? This is true because HE'S NOT THERE, NEVER WAS. Just throw away the shackles of your upbringing (like I did) and embrace the non-superstitous truth, brutha!!

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So many questions, sure wish there were some real answers.

There are. Answer: there are no gods. There, that was easy!

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In closing, we will all one day bow and declare "Jesus is Lord of all". We can do it here on this Earth "voluntarily" or we can wait until Judgment Day and do it "involuntarily". Right now, I am in the group that will be doing it on Judgment Day. How can I love a God that could step in and doesn't?

Bullshit. There is at least one person that will not bow--me. If gawd finally shows up, I'will give him the finger on both hands, and say "Hey, where thE fuck have you BEEN?!?!"

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Organized religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash the kneecaps of anyone who doesn't show proper deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

My sympathies with your current family situation, I certainly do not envy you. I wont jump on the offensive here too much, but think about it for just a second:

Does the world as you see it right now make more or less sense with a God figure? Stated another way; with all the issues you are personally enduring and that you see going on around you to seemingly "good" and "bad" people alike regardless of their faith - does the existence of a God make any kind of logical sense?

I have no desire to try to deconvert people who are honestly benefiting from their religion (and when it does not negatively effect others), but yours seems more like a millstone tied around your neck- Its not providing you comfort, it seems to have you blaming yourself (partially) for your wife's condition.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 03:49:17 PM by Garja »

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

dadamsjr: There's instructions online on how to find Uranus and Neptune using a portable high-power telescope. It's not something a person has to "take on faith". Any scientific discovery is like that - the evidence is available for anyone to examine; it's not something they have to just take on faith. The same thing goes for George Washington, any other historical figure, or any place for that matter. Certainly, evidence gets lost to time, but a person can examine whatever's available rather than just taking it on faith that such-and-such a person actually existed.

Now, regarding what you know, your heart, that is, your emotions, don't know anything. They're how you feel, not what you know. Any knowledge based off of a feeling is suspect, because you can't verify what gave you the feeling. In fact, many people who feel God in their hearts are actually creating an emotional projection of their concept of God which they can then feel in their hearts. It's what proves the existence of God to them.

Here's something to consider. You know God exists because of what you feel in your heart. When you asked God in the past some advice or what he thought, it felt like the answers were coming from inside you, correct? So that served to confirm to you that you really were feeling God in your heart. Yet now, you have a question that you are not getting an answer to. You still feel God in your heart, but no answer is forthcoming on this thing you're having so much trouble with. Is that a fair assessment?

I didn't say there was no proof - I merely said there are a lot of things we believe because that is what we have been told. I have never seen the proofs you have yet I still believe George Washington existed.

I have never seen Neptune. I have seen pictures someone said was of Neptune. I have seen pictures of large telescopes that took those pictures. But again with Photoshoppingcroppingchopping, a picture no longer really proves anything.

There's instructions online of how to use a telescope to spot Neptune. That is to say, with a typical off-the-shelf telescope. If you wanted to actually go see it in greater detail, there's public access telescopes that are significantly stronger than anything you can buy in a store.

You will never convice me there is a god. Clearly there is not. This world behaves exactly as if there is no diety. Once we unlock the mysteries of abiogenesis, the only hidey-hole god will have left is the creation of the universe--

Nope, we pretty much have that one sewn up now. Watch this excellent video by Stephen Hawking.

dadamsjr,I have moments when my mind tries to backslide into belief but I fight against it because it offers no real comfort. I realized quite a while ago that either god did not exist[1] or that god is malevolent.

A malevolent god can love us but will show it by making us suffer. The good that happens is only to make the suffering more exquisite. This is why the bible can be so easily misinterpreted. This is why god does not show himself and causes natural disasters. This is why evil people succeed while good people suffer.

If I ever do succumb, I will probably start a church espousing these beliefs. Do they sound like beliefs you want to embrace or would you prefer to learn how the world exists without gods?

We turn to god when we have no control in our lives. We see patterns where there are none because that did not harm us as we evolved. I cling to these facts because it is better for me and other people that I don't believe.

option a: buy a much stronger telescope.option b: try checking under the couch and between the cushions.option c: strangle a puppy, then flop around on the ground while speaking gibberish, and when you're done, go to your bathroom and turn off all the lights and say "jehova" to the mirror five times. if you do this correctly, god will be sitting in your favorite comfy chair when you're finished. but if you do this incorrectly, YOU WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER!!! (true story)

(edited because my stupid fucking computer cut me off halfway through being an asshole.)

I didn't say there was no proof - I merely said there are a lot of things we believe because that is what we have been told. I have never seen the proofs you have yet I still believe George Washington existed.

The issue is you are trying to draw an parallel between something that has vast quantities of proof and none.

It isn't genuine.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I don't think anyone here can "prove" that the planet Neptune exists - though we all probably believe it exist based on someone somewhere telling us there is a telescope somewhere that someone we have never eve met looked through and saw it.

This is a very poor argument. First of all, as others have said, there are telescopes that people can look through and see Neptune. I have one myself. My telescope features a GPS device, and something called a GoTo Mount, which, when using the location of the telescope (which is what the GPS does), depending on the day of year, and time of the night, the telescope will go right to Neptune.

So for only around 400 bucks, you too can see Neptune. I will admit that because I live in a large city I have not seen Neptune, but if I wanted too I could take a 45 minute drive to the country side and view all the planets.

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Same thing with a lot of what we believe. I have never been to Mount Vernon, yet I believe a man named George Washington existed. I don't think there is one person here who can even name the person who did a portrait of George Washington. Yet we believe without "proof" when we are taught in history he existed.

Another pool argument, because we have historical documents that President Washington existed. I don't accept this fact on faith alone, I know there was a man who at least went by the name George Washington.

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I don't care if you do not believe in God. I don't care if you think creation could come about by chance instead of a Creator. I know in my heart and confused mind there is a God. Just having a difficult time how He blesses blesses blesses some and well others, pooh on them . . . . .

You're believing in god on faith alone, and nothing else. You are believing this because this is how you were either raised, or you were taught it by someone else and they convinced you there is a god.

However, the problem lies that there is absolutely no proof for god, like there is for George Washington, or Neptune. If someone came up to me in the street and said there's a planet called Zork between Mars and Pluto (which would be visible through my telescope) and I went to the country with my telescope and saw no planet Zork, why should I believe this person?

If someone tells me there is a god and I ask for proof, but this person admits to nothing having proof, but only having faith, I see no reason to believe this person. If this person was a new-earther, then I could simply counter his argument and show proof that can easily by found on in a textbook that this person is completely wrong. This person might not believe me, no matter how hard I try to convince him, but some peoples' minds just cannot be changed, no matter how much proof they are shown that goes against their believes.

If this person is an old-earther, and doesn't believe in a 6000 year old world, but believe that the universe is 14 billion years old, the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, believe in abiogenesis and evolution, but still believes firmly in a god that set everything in motion, I'd still ask for proof for this god. And they person can give me bible verses all he/she wants too, but that isn't too convincing of an argument for an atheist like myself. I either want to see this god for myself, or have trustworthy documents that show this god's existence. So far, there are none that point to the fact that the god of the bible exists.

All the proof christians have for their god is in the bible. But to use the bible to support the bible is called circular reasoning, and I know enough not to fall for that as proof. Some christians try to use the whole 'creation ex nihilio' or, something from nothing argument being, "How did the universe come from nothing?". Well, I can easily counter with the fact that that same argument can be applied to the god named YHWH. If something cannot come from nothing, and god is a something, how did he come about? But when it comes to how the universe was formed 14+ billion years ago, I don't know for certain. All I know is that a singularity expended, generated intense heat, the four forced known as gravity, the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism formed, and through a series of particle/anti particle annihilation more particles and anti-particles were formed, and kept expanding into the universe we live in today.

I don't believe god did it. I just don't. To conclude he did is called God of the Gaps, which substitutes god into the missing pieces that scientific theories have. And another thing, a scientific theory, is not like the word theory used in every day English. Here's a good definition of the scientific meaning of the word theory:

TheoryA scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/glossary.html

It works nicely. Perhaps you knew the scientific definition of theory. I am just tossing that out there in case you didn't.

I would really love to see how you can to your conclusion that there is a god. You said that there is no doubt in your mind there is a god, so I'd like you to place no doubt in my mind as well.

However, I don't want to be preached too. I don't want to be told to look at proof in the bible, for reasons I mentioned above.[1]. No offense, but I would hope that you are honest enough to have some doubt in your mind, because you should. Because looking at the world we live in shows there is no design for it. Science has proven how a universe can evolve without a god. Science has proven how life can evolved without a god. Science doesn't seek to disproof god, but only to show how what we know about our existence can appear through natural processes.

Many people are praying for my wife, many people have prayed for countless others. Some will recover, some will not. Everyday the newspapers are filled with obituaries of people who died younger than 50. Answered prayer for healing from God is not consistent. Why does He choose some and not others? Especially when some of the others who live long healthy lives are outright liars, thieves, all while being in church every Sunday morning, all spiffed up and looking mighty "Christian". I personally have met some of these people. One person who "stole" another man's wife (twice! long long UNBELIEVABLE story you would think I made up . . . ) actually told me I should forgive him just like Jesus did for stealing the other man's wife. LOL. Let me wrong you and when you get angry, tell you "Brother, even though I stole from you (a large amount, over $20,000), you need to forgive me and move on". What about the part that says I should make right my wrong, THEN ask your forgiveness. Based on his reasoning, if I robbed a bank, the jury and judge should forgive me since Jesus has.

This is getting off topic. God exists. The Bible is true, I don't understand it, I am angry at a God that COULD recover my wife and doesn't, angry at a God that lets people like the several rich televangelists become millionaires. Since He COULD give them health or other issues (I am not asking for a bolt of lightening from the sky) but doesn't, they just prosper prosper prosper, it has confused me. Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so . . . . easy words, not so easy to believe any more. As I told my children, love is an ACTION word. If I say I love you but don't provide for you when I CAN, then my actions demonstrate a contradiction.

Your 'prayers' may seem to be answered, but I believe there is a non-religious reason why this is. Perhaps through pro-active measures you took youself to get the results you wanted. Perhaps through a well trained physician, etc.

It's true, though. Answered prayers through god is not consistent. And as I christian I questioned why. After all, even Jesus said, according to the bible:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:Matt 7:7

and

...with God all things are possibleMatt 19:26

and

And what you ask in my name I will do it... If you ask anything in My name I will do it.John 14:13

and

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.James 5:15

It's pretty clear that if you pray to Jesus, god's son, then he should be constant. When looking at how god answers prayer in the bible I see how he cannot be constant. I came to this conclusion only through studying god's word (the bible), yet he is very much inconstant.

Not knowing your wife's condition, I think prayer, while it is beneficial to helping you feel better about her condition, will go nowhere. No offence, BTW.

My father is a pastor (Pentecostal), and there was a time after I left the church that he and his congregation prayed for me. Long story short, I got associated with the wrong crowd and did some pretty heavy drugs, like coke and crack. Just strung out all the time. He had people pray for my to be sober, but I got sober without the help of prayer, because I was unhappy with the way I was living my life. His prayer didn't help me. I took pro-active measures to get sober.

Whatever is asked for in prayer, more natural means seem to make the most sense. Like, is someone is sick, that person prays for healing while at the same time seeing a good doctor, I am positive that person gets better because he/she saw a doctor who has studied the affliction through years of medical school. And if that person doesn't get healed it's only because medical science hasn't figured out how to help that person completely, even though a doctor is doing all he/she knows and can.

I am glad to see that your mind is confused towards the reality of god's existence. Hopefully on this forum you'll see how god isn't real. Just be honest with yourself.

For a background on this email, my wife, who just turned 54 in January 2012, had a stroke in June. Ever since then, she has just laid there, eyes open and that is it. No interaction at all. She never cheated people, smoked, did drugs, hurt people - unlike some I know that by my eyesight far more deserved a stroke or catastrophic illness more than she.

I'm so sorry to hear about your wife. My father had a brain stem stroke and the chaplain met us at the hospital. My mom had already given permission to give the clot-busting drug tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) and it saved his life. He has come back slowly but gotten better. No matter what happens, tell your wife you love her everyday. Hopefully you can get to the point where you take her outside - that seems to help. Don't give up hope - it takes time. I hope you have good caring doctors.

I didn't say there was no proof - I merely said there are a lot of things we believe because that is what we have been told. I have never seen the proofs you have yet I still believe George Washington existed.

There's plenty of evidence, by many countries, that show George Washington existed. I think your argument would hold more water if you used an example of a person that's main source of information came from one place and not many. See, the problem with the existance of Jesus comes from one main source. All other sources are after that main one. None before. Not so with Washington.

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I have never seen Neptune. I have seen pictures someone said was of Neptune. I have seen pictures of large telescopes that took those pictures. But again with Photoshoppingcroppingchopping, a picture no longer really proves anything.

Idiotic.

-Nam

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Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

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I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

You say that one has to take it on "faith" that George Washington and Neptune exists, because people are gullible and will believe anything. Yet, you do not seem to notice the irony in the belief in your god. There's more proof that Santa exists than your god. Did you also know that over a thousand gods alledge to have created the Earth. Just because they, thru thier holy books says they did, does that necessarily make it so?

George Washington exists even now, he is living on Neptune, and he watches everything you do.

He is powerful enough to create the entire universe, and in his loving "perfect god" status, he created Adam and Eve. He blesses some, but not everyone.

His purpose in creating this whole vast universe, is to bring us, his pet project, to know and love him.

We have absolutely no purpose other than to have faith that he exists (even though he hides with the skill of a god) and to love him.

That's right, absolutely no purpose but to have faith and to love god.

The reason George (the father) hides on Neptune is he cannot show himself to us because that will remove the need of faith, and worse (so the theologians say) will remove our freewill.Of course if that was the case, one might wonder how satan ever rebelled (permanently in god's direct company, still exercises freewill).

It also seems to be contradicted by the bible old and new when god was guest appearing (for one night only in Mary's case) regularly.

Of course one should not question the contradictions like a rational honest or intelligent human.

Much better to just believe in George (the unknowable) and accept the illogic of George (the mysterious) while loving him (no matter what evil he allows) like a loving sheep (the hilarious).

George Washington exists even now, he is living on Neptune, and he watches everything you do.

He is powerful enough to create the entire universe, and in his loving "perfect god" status, he created Adam and Eve. He blesses some, but not everyone.

His purpose in creating this whole vast universe, is to bring us, his pet project, to know and love him.

We have absolutely no purpose other than to have faith that he exists (even though he hides with the skill of a god) and to love him.

That's right, absolutely no purpose but to have faith and to love god.

The reason George (the father) hides on Neptune is he cannot show himself to us because that will remove the need of faith, and worse (so the theologians say) will remove our freewill.Of course if that was the case, one might wonder how satan ever rebelled (permanently in god's direct company, still exercises freewill).

It also seems to be contradicted by the bible old and new when god was guest appearing (for one night only in Mary's case) regularly.

Of course one should not question the contradictions like a rational honest or intelligent human.

Much better to just believe in George (the unknowable) and accept the illogic of George (the mysterious) while loving him (no matter what evil he allows) like a loving sheep (the hilarious).

Believe in George!! You don't know the half of it . . . but watch this, and you will!! NSFW due to profanity. 100% historically accurate!!

Organized religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash the kneecaps of anyone who doesn't show proper deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

Haven't been back because I never intended to get into a long discussion on whether God exists or not. I have read every comment and watched the Stephen Hawking's video. This might be interesting to some of you but last year when I began asking questions, one question I asked was could the pastor look SH eyeball to eyeball, tell him that God (or Jesus) loved him, and believe what they were saying? A God Who declares He loves you, has the power to do ANYTHING lets a man like SH have a life like that? So what surprised me in the video was there did not appear to be any bitterness or hate in SH toward his condition.

Anyhow, my entry on this site was only to try (evidently unsuccessfully) to show that a better question than "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" (which evidently is then used to show there is NO God) would be that ALL faiths pray to a "god" for the healing of their loved ones. When the loved ones of faiths where according to the Christian perspective only the Christian God heals and answers prayers since Allah, Buddha, the Hindu god, etc and even the "wrong" Christian faith gods (Jehovah Witness, Mormons, 7th Day Adventist) are then not answered, the conclusion would be the people recovered without "god" intervening. So what about the Christians who recover? Not one single Christian would recover, God or no God, prayer or no prayer, without proper, in-time medical care.

I am leaving now, hope I made no enemies, life is too short for that. If you would like to have further contact, I have always included my email address at the end. As for the wife, my troubles are just beginning. She remains totally unresponsive, laying there with her eyes open, only 54 years old, vegetarian, no alcohol or drug use, hasn't smoked in 25 years, never cheated anyone, cared deeply for her dogs. She will likely go into a nursing home and without extensive paperwork, homes don't accept patients younger than 60. I am told a nursing home will only cost $4,000 - $6,000 a month. That is at least $48,000 per year. I maybe make $40,000 a year - before taxes. . . . . .

Thanks for the update, and I hope you can find all the strength you need in your situation.

Yes, we spend a lot of time here debating religious topics and gods, but we are certainly not beyond just listening, and offering support for you and your family. If you ever need to vent, stop by and say hi.

David,for what it's worth, you have a great deal of empathy from me regarding your wife's condition. My mind shrinks from the thought of being in your position--even NOT considering the financial straits you find yourself in. My apologies if my reply to you came across as too harsh--in retrospect, I do feel like it was over the line into "crass" territory, and I'm sorry about that.

I hope, along with others here it seems, that you don't leave the forum just yet, at least until you're confident that this community isn't doing anything for you.

As for your specific suggestion (WWGHA is not the correct question), you do have a very legitimate point. I believe the site author wanted to focus on the Xian god of the bible, both because of the popularity in the United States, and (presumably) the author's own experience. Taking the bible specifically allows the examiner to question why the bible specifically states in multiple places "prayer will be answered in the affirmative," yet there are no unambiguous examples of that (such as healing amputees)

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Organized religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash the kneecaps of anyone who doesn't show proper deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

Just a note. It is far easier to make sense of tragedy, personal or otherwise, when you don't insist on having a god involved. The world is not a place that it automatically friendly to people or any other living thing. The law of averages, as it currently stands (i.e. at this moment the planet isn't being hit by a Mt. Everest sized asteroid, which would repeal the law of averages immediately) seems to make it so some people have it easy while others have medium and still others have it hard. There is no inherent reason for one person being dastardly and living a long and fruitful life while another person is unquestionably good and dies of cancer at the age to 20. This is stuff that happens.

It all makes sense when one looks at it from a naturalist point of view. It ceases to make sense when you try to toss in an all-loving god. Or any god, for that matter. Because then you have to imagine all the ramifications. There are no actual ramifications, being as there are no gods.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.