I'm simply avoiding a discussion that will never have an end, because i understood after pages of reasoning that you will never get my point, no matter what i'm saying; then, if you have the misplaced arrogance to belive that for this my argument is hollow and you have the unquestionable reason about it, good for you.

So in other words you don't have a rebuttal for the fallacy I have pointed out and instead you attempt to insult my credibility by saying I have a "misplaced arrogance."

I understand your point just fine. I simply believe that it's out of character for Garrosh to think "well if they won't bother us it will be fine and I don't need to bother with them" based on observations of his personality, which has remained rather static in regards to the Alliance over the years. Not much more to it than that.

What are you, a pissed spoiled child? "Common knowledge" means simply that is canon. If you don't accept it is you that openly go against the canon story, not otherwise.

I thought you wanted to leave this discussion?

Btw, personal attacks are against the rules here. I do not accept it, cause there is no proof and evidence other than a novel that backs up that Doomhammer is a honorable warchief and not exactly like Garrosh and Grom!
My views and opinion is based on the games and i remember someone at blizz told once those were canon and not the books. But i have no time or pleasure to dig that up now.

Interesting though, that guys of your kind, can only bring up flame and all the same line of my reply here, while not answering directly to my thoughts on this topic.

Thats really not worth my time so i am out.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:44 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Rassendyll

This thread assumes that Garrosh will be defeated. I hope that he'll wipe the raid at 1%, kill Thrall like he nearly did in the pre-Wrath events, and rule the Horde once more under an iron fist!

i hope this, too. As i can simply see no replacement for Garrosh worthy of the title "Warchief". The other Horde Leaders like Bane and Voljin are more "Peacechiefs". But it seems the burning legion will return, thus, alliance and horde will work together again - never liked that and never will.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:59 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Florena

While there are occasional minor mistakes, it's a very involved process between the authors and blizzard. There's a quote floating around somewhere I'm going to paraphrase here. "We don't just tell someone to write a book about Nova and let them run wild." Characters from the books make their way into game. Events from the books are very important to things that happen in WoW. Saying you don't accept the books as cannon is just plugging your ears and shoutting 'lalalala I can't HEAR you!'

Krasus, the Dragon Aspects sans Deathwing, Rhonin, Falstad, Vereesa, and more are all characters that appeared in novels and other side material before the games, yet play big roles in the game itself. Jaina becoming the leader of the Kirin Tor, the death of Krasus, Varian's character development in Wolfheart and Blood of our Fathers, the Sunwell Trilogy setting up the Sunwell raid story, all of these things have an impact on the game but were started in the novels and other side material. It doesn't matter if you or I like it or not. You and I do not get to decide what is and isn't cannon. Blizzard has decided the novels are cannon, and they work VERY CLOSELY with the authors as they write those books, so yes, the novels are indeed canon even if they occasionally have minor schisms with in game stories.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 11:21 AM ----------

I go with the novelizations of WC 2 as canon over the game itself because:

1. They were written after the games, and are more recent and up to date lore wise.

2. They provide a singular, coherent narrative instead of two conflicting stories that offer very little in the way of storytelling.

3. Blizzard works very closely with the writers of the novels as I said above. They have to approve it, it's not like they get to run wild and throw any lore in that they want.

I'd say from an in character perspective, sure there could be rumors that Lothar was killed in cowardly means. But in canon, I'd go with the Tides of Darkness novel's version for the above reasons.

At least this is a good reply, even though i disagree with you. Can't imagine Lothar beeing killed by Doomhammer in a fair duell, cause i really think Lothar was the more powerful Character and just needed to be ambushed to be defeated.
Lets remember how Grom Hellscream dealt with Cenarius, Grom was strong and powerful as Doomhammer but he could not beat a legendary demi God on his own.
I think the ambush, the original story before it was retconned via a novel, fits the horde in their desperate situation just more, they were about to lose the war against the alliance. You don't do honor duels in such a situation. Also Doomhammer needed Lothar dead to rout the alliance armies, but it resulted in a more brave alliance charging the hordes armies to their ultimate defeat at the Black Portal.

You support the book, i support the game and my thoughts on the story. And i am really not sure if the story is in good hands right now, if old lore gets retconned for no reasion other than making the conflict horde vs alliance to simply disappear. After Garrosh, there is really only Sylvanas that would want to wage a worldwide war.(possibly).

Where is your source for the corrupted part? Blizzard did state that Garrosh is not corrupted, he is using everything as a weapon against the Alliance.

It's quite obvious. The fact that he is willing to experiment with fel magic, using Dark Shamans etc is first of all contradictory to his "Honor" speech in Cataclysm, which was when he was actually supposed to be taken seriously as a character. All the revelations in MoP speaks that he is essentially using "evil magic" to essentially bring back the very old dark Horde. I.e, they're antagonizing him in a one-dimensional way so that we don't feel bad killing him.

I can bet you a thousand times over that it's going to tie it in with the Burning Legion, and that the legion used Garrosh as a tool to weaken the two factions. I.e he's corrupted. Has to be killed. No redemption involved. Not my fault you can't see it yet.

It's quite obvious. The fact that he is willing to experiment with fel magic, using Dark Shamans etc is first of all contradictory to his "Honor" speech in Cataclysm, which was when he was actually supposed to be taken seriously as a character. All the revelations in MoP speaks that he is essentially using "evil magic" to essentially bring back the very old dark Horde. I.e, they're antagonizing him in a one-dimensional way so that we don't feel bad killing him.

I can bet you a thousand times over that it's going to tie it in with the Burning Legion, and that the legion used Garrosh as a tool to weaken the two factions. I.e he's corrupted. Has to be killed. No redemption involved. Not my fault you can't see it yet.

Blizzard said in a Q&A that he isn't corrupted mate.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

I saw an article about Garrosh, questioning his being Corrupt. It had some pretty good arguments that sided against it. I'd post the link if it were allowed, though I'm not sure if I am so I won't. The way it is being built up seems to point towards corrupt though. What's your take on it?
So many Warcraft villains are corrupt or possessed. Garrosh? He's just a bad apple. Everything is a weapon to him. Even the sha.

I understand your point just fine. I simply believe that it's out of character for Garrosh to think "well if they won't bother us it will be fine and I don't need to bother with them" based on observations of his personality, which has remained rather static in regards to the Alliance over the years. Not much more to it than that.

Yet the whole basis for his rage against the Alliance is because he believes them a serious threat to the Horde and on obstacle to the heights and power the Horde deserves.

If those were no longer true in his mind why would he hate them then?

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Yet the whole basis for his rage against the Alliance is because he believes them a serious threat to the Horde and on obstacle to the heights and power the Horde deserves.

If those were no longer true in his mind why would he hate them then?

That's not true. He hates them because they opposed the orcish race. That they continue to do so is simply fuel for the fire but that isn't the source. The source is the fact that they did it at all.

The Alliance weren't really opposing them in Wrath, nor were they that serious of a threat, relatively. They were both there to deal with a greater threat. Garrosh chose to ignore that and hate them regardless. You're trying to make him seem rational but it's irrational to try and focus on a threat which isn't really that much of a threat compared to this thing that is capable of destroying BOTH you and the other guys. If Garrosh's rage was really based on something being a threat then why didn't he focus more on the real threat, the Scourge?

The Alliance weren't really opposing them in Wrath, nor were they that serious of a threat, relatively.

The Alliance were a threat none the less by them simply being the rival super-power.
Humans and dwarves have been encroaching on Horde lands since before Wrath, something he learned about as soon he came To Azeroth

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 08:14 PM ----------

Originally Posted by The Madgod

. They were both there to deal with a greater threat. Garrosh chose to ignore that and hate them regardless. You're trying to make him seem rational but it's irrational to try and focus on a threat which isn't really that much of a threat compared to this thing that is capable of destroying BOTH you and the other guys.

Well what can you say, Old hatrds die hard. That to me seems like a common theme across the Warcraft Saga
And Garrosh isnt the only person to not completely forget about the opposing faction just because Arthas showed his face

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 08:14 PM ----------

Originally Posted by The Madgod

If Garrosh's rage was really based on something being a threat then why didn't he focus more on the real threat, the Scourge?

its not like he totally ignored the Scourge to instead go after the Alliance

Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-20 at 08:15 PM.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Well what can you say, Old hatrds die hard. That to me seems like a common theme across the Warcraft Saga
And Garrosh isnt the only person to not completely forget about the opposing faction just because Arthas showed his face

That's absolutely true, that old hatreds die hard, and that's exactly my point. Combine that with the fact that Garrosh is obviously emotionally-driven, do you honestly believe he wouldn't press an attack if Varian said that the Alliance would leave him alone and that they honestly desire peace and wouldn't attack? He can't take valid criticism without threatening to silence his critics, how can you expect that he would be emotionally mature enough to let his hatred and his desire to kill Alliance die off if they're no longer a threat?

Originally Posted by Dreknar20

The Alliance were a threat none the less by them simply being the rival super-power.
Humans and dwarves have been encroaching on Horde lands since before Wrath, something he learned about as soon he came To Azeroth

its not like he totally ignored the Scourge to instead go after the Alliance

No but anyone with half a brain would realize that the Scourge is the primary threat on Northrend. Trying to attack the people who are attacking your common enemy just means that you're helping that common enemy. The fact that Garrosh goes after the lesser of two evils is extremely telling that he doesn't hate the Alliance because it's a threat. He hates the Alliance because they're the Alliance and was willing to weaken the joint war effort against the Lich King - weaken the Horde's position in the war against the Lich King - to satiate that hate.

If he was really anti-Alliance because they were a threat then he should have been more anti-Scourge since they were the bigger threat and he should have focused on them before the Alliance.

So sad. You may have this "nananana" crap feeling about me just because i haven't discussed with you, but with the other guy, and i said that i'm done with this discussion. I'm not denying facts (that don't exist, no matter how hard you try to belive so) but i simply decided to stop arguing, because i made enough of it with essentialy no results at all. I apoligize with you for this, but i simply tired of reasoning again with you after i did for so much time with madgod and, as i said, with no results at all.

I don't mean to offend you or anything but yet again you said these facts doesn't exist which again we linked you quotes from the novel and ingame about Garrosh willing to takeover Stormwind and Eastern Kingdom if he has the chance for it which prove that his current attitude is not the kinda like if the Alliance mind their own business forever Garrosh will not touch them nope he is not like that and I understand your point but we are just pointing out that you are wrong in this case anyway thanks for reading.

They even made the Tides of War novel the real canon, overriding the in-game scenario (Alliance side).

Thats because of something the playerbase can't seem to accept. They can't take the idea that the things there made up character avatar does, isn't in any way integral to the real story happening in wow, and they really have nothing to do with the events happening in the game.

Tides of war, the novel, shows exactly what happens in the story, none of this 'behind the scenes secret mission' bullshit, thats just some made up plothole for the players ingame to feel like there part of the ride, kind of like seeing a child riding on disney land ride and believing he's part of a disney movie like Aladdin or beauty and the beast. But they are not part of anything.

Also, there was none of this crap about the super secret staff the blue dragonflight gave to a random adventurer who witnessed kelec becoming the blue aspect. Twilight of the aspects shows it was Thrall who witnessed it, an actual lore character, not some f**king gnome called 'bubblepants' or 'Tinklewinkle'

I don't mean to offend you or anything but yet again you said these facts doesn't exist which again we linked you quotes from the novel and ingame about Garrosh willing to takeover Stormwind and Eastern Kingdom if he has the chance for it which prove that his current attitude is not the kinda like if the Alliance mind their own business forever Garrosh will not touch them nope he is not like that and I understand your point but we are just pointing out that you are wrong in this case anyway thanks for reading.

Don't even need the novels for Stormwind's case. In Cata the whole setup for Vashj'ir was that Garrosh was trying to take the island off Stormwind's coast so they could invade Stormwind directly.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 07:24 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tyrannica

I thought you wanted to leave this discussion?

Btw, personal attacks are against the rules here. I do not accept it, cause there is no proof and evidence other than a novel that backs up that Doomhammer is a honorable warchief and not exactly like Garrosh and Grom!
My views and opinion is based on the games and i remember someone at blizz told once those were canon and not the books. But i have no time or pleasure to dig that up now.

Interesting though, that guys of your kind, can only bring up flame and all the same line of my reply here, while not answering directly to my thoughts on this topic.

Thats really not worth my time so i am out.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:44 PM ----------

i hope this, too. As i can simply see no replacement for Garrosh worthy of the title "Warchief". The other Horde Leaders like Bane and Voljin are more "Peacechiefs". But it seems the burning legion will return, thus, alliance and horde will work together again - never liked that and never will.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:59 PM ----------

At least this is a good reply, even though i disagree with you. Can't imagine Lothar beeing killed by Doomhammer in a fair duell, cause i really think Lothar was the more powerful Character and just needed to be ambushed to be defeated.
Lets remember how Grom Hellscream dealt with Cenarius, Grom was strong and powerful as Doomhammer but he could not beat a legendary demi God on his own.
I think the ambush, the original story before it was retconned via a novel, fits the horde in their desperate situation just more, they were about to lose the war against the alliance. You don't do honor duels in such a situation. Also Doomhammer needed Lothar dead to rout the alliance armies, but it resulted in a more brave alliance charging the hordes armies to their ultimate defeat at the Black Portal.

You support the book, i support the game and my thoughts on the story. And i am really not sure if the story is in good hands right now, if old lore gets retconned for no reasion other than making the conflict horde vs alliance to simply disappear. After Garrosh, there is really only Sylvanas that would want to wage a worldwide war.(possibly).

Lothar's awesome and all, but what exactly about him makes you think he couldn't be defeated in single combat? The reason they sought eachother out, was an attempt to cut the head off the enemy so to speak. Doomhammer though that by defeating Lothar in single combat, he could shatter the spirits of the alliance, though it backfired. Even so, you could make the arguement Lothar won because he had an inferior weapon, with the Doomhammer breaking through his sword and smashing his skull, but I know nothing about Lothar that suggests that Doomhammer wouldn't fight him on equal grounds.

Warcraft 2 was extremely limited in its storytelling, both from the game's limitations and the fact the story was pretty much 'humans good orcs bad' back in those days. The novels paint a much broader and detailed picture of things, from showing Deathwing's plans and involvement (he was just kind of there in the game), to developing characters like Turalyon and Khadgar in a way the now outdated RTS system couldn't.

They even made the Tides of War novel the real canon, overriding the in-game scenario (Alliance side).

yeah, but it is bad. Because, if Doomhammer and Lothar just had a fair duel and Lothar lost it honorably, the alliance armies led by Turalyon wouldn't be enraged and that brave to beat the horde afterwards. A mean ambush though, could do the trick.

So i wonder what the purpose of this retcon should be? Doomhammer is not from the frostwolf clan, but blackrock clan, he does not need to be extra honorable. He isn't Durotan, Thralls father. With this retcon, it makes one wonder why those factions even were at war?

A bad retcon is bad.

It destroyed the character of Doomhammer as well as the logic of some of the battlefield scenarios, and reasions how the alliance could defeat the horde.
I mean you can have superior numbers, but you need to motivate your men!
That one got lost with this retcon.

yeah, but it is bad. Because, if Doomhammer and Lothar just had a fair duel and Lothar lost it honorably, the alliance armies led by Turalyon wouldn't be enraged and that brave to beat the horde afterwards. A mean ambush though, could do the trick.

So i wonder what the purpose of this retcon should be? Doomhammer is not from the frostwolf clan, but blackrock clan, he does not need to be extra honorable. He isn't Durotan, Thralls father. With this retcon, it makes one wonder why those factions even were at war?

A bad retcon is bad.

It destroyed the character of Doomhammer as well as the logic of some of the battlefield scenarios, and reasions how the alliance could defeat the horde.
I mean you can have superior numbers, but you need to motivate your men!
That one got lost with this retcon.

Yes but keep in mind that even though Doomhammer defeated Lothar 1 vs 1 in the novel that doesn't mean he did it so easily in fact he was way so weakned and tired after his fight with Lothar which one of the reason that Turalyon overpowered him easily with of course the enraged Alliance soldiers.

Tides of war, the novel, shows exactly what happens in the story, none of this 'behind the scenes secret mission' bullshit, thats just some made up plothole for the players ingame to feel like there part of the ride, kind of like seeing a child riding on disney land ride and believing he's part of a disney movie like Aladdin or beauty and the beast. But they are not part of anything.

Also, there was none of this crap about the super secret staff the blue dragonflight gave to a random adventurer who witnessed kelec becoming the blue aspect. Twilight of the aspects shows it was Thrall who witnessed it, an actual lore character, not some f**king gnome called 'bubblepants' or 'Tinklewinkle'

aha ok, this all doesn't make the slightes of a sense, uh.

Secret mission.....i was refering to the events of a major battle at blackrock spire, that was very critical to the story and how the alliance could overcome the horde. Actually if you have played this important scenario you were quite shocked seeing lothar killed by ambushing and outnumbering orc armies. That was a slaughter and execution. In addition, it was important to motivate the alliance troops and its leading general Turalyon to beat the horde and doomhammer once and for all.

In fact i think the chances are not that low, if doomhamer had a fair duel with lothar and beats him, the horde would get the morale boost and win that battle and maybe even the 2nd war in the long run.

yeah, but it is bad. Because, if Doomhammer and Lothar just had a fair duel and Lothar lost it honorably, the alliance armies led by Turalyon wouldn't be enraged and that brave to beat the horde afterwards. A mean ambush though, could do the trick.

So i wonder what the purpose of this retcon should be? Doomhammer is not from the frostwolf clan, but blackrock clan, he does not need to be extra honorable. He isn't Durotan, Thralls father. With this retcon, it makes one wonder why those factions even were at war?

A bad retcon is bad.

It destroyed the character of Doomhammer as well as the logic of some of the battlefield scenarios, and reasions how the alliance could defeat the horde.
I mean you can have superior numbers, but you need to motivate your men!
That one got lost with this retcon.

If Blizzard wants to screw with their lore, that's their prerogative. It's their intellectual property. They decide what counts, whether we like it or not.

In this specific case, the point of the retcon was to add depth to the orcs. Previously, the orcs didn't really have a story. They were just green rage monsters rampaging across the landscape. After the retcon, they're noble savages with a code of honor which opened up their story for development in WC3 and WoW.

Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-05-21 at 12:59 AM.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)