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SWIM read some very interesting stuff about protection products on erowid.
A scientist had given rats a high dose MDMA, and high dose MDMA+vit c
and concluded that the vit c, reduced damage, and toleance significantly.

But because in order to get clear results he had used large, large doses,

He used 10mg/kg MDMA (ca 5times normal dose), and 100mg/kg of vit C, which would be equvivilant to a human dose of ca 5-10g vit c, but because it's injected it's more like 50-100g vit-c (normal oral dose is 1-2g)

so, because of the high doses(and that it's rats) it can't be directly transfered, but it is an interesting indication

GRAPH showing how the rats respond to MDMA, after given a previous dose of MDMA+saline compared to MDMA+vit C
as we can see, the rats given vit c, showed no tolerance, despite they've gotten the same about of MDMA in a previous dose

I used to go a bit overboard with pre/post-loading for MDMA, but over the years he's worked it down to this (IMO) very practical regimen:

1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (my got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

2) Antioxidants: 300mg time-release ALA and one "Airborne", about an hour after ingestion of MDMA. There has been some suggestion that anti-oxidants, and ALA in particular, can interfere with the absorbtion of MDMA, which is why I wait until after the MDMA - something about oxidation. If one doesn't buy into this, they might as well take this portion at the same time as #1.

3) Same as #2, taken about 4-5 hours after ingestion. Set a timer so You remembers - this one is the most important!

^ With the strength of the evidence that antioxidants are effective at reducing any possible neurotoxicity, and the fact that vitamins C, A, E, etc. are so cheap, it seems almost perverse to me not to at least take a large vitamin C supplement a few hours into the experience.

The Ascorbic-acid/Vitamin C in the mice lab-rapport, which prevented tolerance, and oxidation in the brain was done at a large dose. Equivalent to 50-100 grams for a human. So people can't get as much antioxidants as the mice in the rapport..

BUT this don't have to be true: If a person would take Imodium, before the intake of the Ascorbic acid, they could take a MUCH higher dose than the normal tolerated dose: 5-25grams/day, which causes diarrhea

In fact, if you'd follow the Vitamin C foundation's guidelines, a person can safely take 120 grams, in the duration of a roll
(5 hours), divided into doses taken every twenty minutes (because of the short half life of Ascorbic acid)

I would be so interested in having Alexander Shulgin's tolerance experiment, redone with someone taking a high dose of ascorbic acid, every 20-30minutes.

"In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day."

After looking through what he can find on the way antioxidants work with MDMA, he has really high hopes that no or little tolerance would develope.

And it would be real easy to do to, it would be just to buy 100 vitamin-c pills without taste, crush them up, and mix them in the water You is going to drink anyway. And take some Imodium to aviod diarrhea..

The effect depends on the dosage. 1-2grams showes little or no effect on treating e.g. the flu, but when mega dosing it has definatly an effect.

quotations from wikipedia

"At least 29 controlled clinical trials (many double-blind and placebo-controlled) involving a total of over 11,000 participants have been conducted. These trials were reviewed in the 1990s [5][6] and again recently.[16] The trials show that vitamin C reduces the duration and severity of colds but not the frequency. The data indicate that there is a normal dose-response relationship. Vitamin C is more effective the higher the dose."

the lab-rapport which made rats non-tolerant to MDMA, was done with high doses, but they are attainible.

In fact, if you'd follow the Vitamin C foundation's guidelines, a person can safely take 120 grams, in the duration of a roll
(5 hours), divided into doses taken every twenty minutes (because of the short half life of Ascorbic acid)

Oh, Snap`?

Click to expand...

I tried this out yesterday (without MDMA - to check how the body reacts)

He ate 8 grams of ascorbic acid every 20 minutes. Which was fine. But after one hour and 3 quarters, he felt like his stomach had a really low pH. A bad feeling.

After 2hours and 50 minutes, he got a strong diarrhea. Which lasted into the next day.. It's like he was taking a piss out of his ass..

I am going to try to find something which counteracts acid.
Maybe also imodium.
And report back

EDITSWIM stopped taking vitamins when the diarhea started. Reaching a total of 68 grams of Vit-C

^ dear friend that was quite retarded, what you had was a vit C OD, which sympthoms include diarrhea you wont die from it but it is sure as hell dumb.you cant extrapolate the mice doses to human ones,damnit! eat lots of yoghurt esp those with bifidus bacteria help yer flushed bowels.

SWIM don't care about diarrhea, he knew this would eventually happen when eating vit-c. He was testing his limits of comfort which vary much from person to person. I am going to see if all negative side effects can be eliminated,

"you cant extrapolate the mice doses to human ones,damnit!"

they're human doses to (see vit c guidelines)

of course, I know mice and humans are different, but it's however interesting to see if a high (but without discomfort) dose of Vit-C would eliminate the day after effect. And/or reduce tolerance.

with this evidence concerning mice, I think it plausible. And if he could do it without discomfort, then where's the hatch ..

1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (my got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

Click to expand...

I have never heard of this before but is sure alot of FOI would appreciate reduced jaw tension when they roll. Can you or someone else explain to me how and why those vitamins effect that rather annoying property of MDMA?

SWIM eats a good meal beforehand, and takes vitamin C and a multivitamin pill plus 100mg 5-HTP about an hour before dosing the MDMA. 4 hours after dosing I takes 100-200mg 5-HTP, as he was once told that if the serotonin deposits are emptied and the dopamine is allowed access to the serotonin receptors the neuro-damage is allready done and it doesn't help to wait 'till the day after with 'refilling' (apart from avoiding eventual depression).

I have never heard of this before but is sure alot of FOI would appreciate reduced jaw tension when they roll. Can you or someone else explain to me how and why those vitamins effect that rather annoying property of MDMA?

Click to expand...

Magnesium and calcium work in the brain in ways which are a bit beyond my ability to explain them. Here's a page explaining how magnesium works to some extent:

That link is related to how magnesium affects blood pressure, which I do not know whether that has anythnig to do with why it reduces bruxism. These minerals affect the way that the brain moves chemicals around, through a mechanism called "ion channels." Sorry I can't give you a more thorough explanation. Perhaps one of our members with a better understanding of brain chemistry than I could chime in here...

One thing I will say is that the effectiveness for reducing bruxism is somewhat unpredictable. Sometimes magnesium blocks close to 100% of his jaw problems, but sometimes it only helps a little bit. It's not a miracle cure but I have found it to be worth the effort.