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Whilst a lot of what happened in Code Geass did have Murphy's Law at work, you can't therefore argue that it's some sort of law of nature in that universe. Bad luck happens, but if it's happening constantly, it's no longer bad luck.

Anyway, I'm not saying that after the Zero Requiem, everything was unicorns and rainbows. No one is, so far as I know; even Kallen's ending narration admits there are still big problems to sort out. What is being argued is that the Zero Requiem accomplished its stated goal of stopping the previously never-ending conflicts between superpowers which had marred the world. My comparison with Europe is perfectly valid; indeed, the world of Code Geass seems in many ways to resemble a scaled-up version of 19th-century/early-20th-century Europe. That too used to be a febrile bed of great powers constantly competing for resources and glory; now, a great war between any of them would be unthinkable. There is no reason why what worked for Europe could not work for the world in some form, either our world or the world of Code Geass.

Correct, we don't know. You don't seem to realise, though, that this hurts your argument as much as it hurts mine. When you don't know something, that means you don't know it, not that one point of view can be assumed true by default. My reasoning is thus: since we never see Lelouch managing a peacetime government, we don't know how well he'd do at it. Therefore, we can either simply say nothing on the matter, or, if we wish, make an educated guess (which must naturally have the caveat that it is not a certainty). The former may well be the wiser option, honestly, but since we've come this far down the latter road we may as well continue (yay sunken costs fallacy). To make an educated guess, we must extrapolate based on the traits of his character that we are shown. That is what I am attempting to do here.

With that in mind, it's a big waste, given the loss of a strategic mind in Lelouch and the Mt. Fuji explosion likely causing an energy crisis.

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My observations are thus:
- Peacetime governance requires a drastically different set of skills and personality traits to wartime governance.
- Many individuals undeniably skilled at the latter prove to be a lot less stellar at the former (this was the point of my Churchill comparison; it was one of personality archetypes, not of circumstances).
- Lelouch, in my view, is likely to be in this category, for reasons I've waxed lyrical on already (in particular, to put it in terms of tropes, he's a shining example of The Unfettered, which I contend is a personality archetype ill-suited to the tasks required of successful peacetime governance).

Whether or not he'd be a good peacetime leader, he'd be useful for something or other, considering that we see Cornelia and Guilford helping out during the post-series picture drama.

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Worming implies some sort of autonomy already. You seem to be viewing the Geass as a shackle against which the victim can actively strain. All evidence is to the contrary; once the Geass actually fully sets in, the victim has in all cases complied fully and without restraint, even happily. They don't attempt to get around the commands; they just carry them out, to the best of their ability. Schneizel might be able to cause trouble if he attempted to lawyer the Geass, true; but the point is, he wouldn't, because no one does. The bottom line is, whilst it might be possible even then for Schneizel to one day somehow decide that serving Zero can be best done through means other than what Lelouch and Suzaku intended, it's highly, highly unlikely.

He doesn't necessarily have to be under the beck and call of the geass every single moment.

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So why do you keep saying he'd make a good leader?

I'm not saying I necessarily condone it, but I understand. Objectively speaking, suicide is something that should be overcome. Lelouch was ultimately being selfish in his reasons. Ideally he would have realized that since it wasn't only about Nunnally, he would have carried on without her, and for added effect, eventually taken C. C.'s code. I mean, he basically punished Suzaku into living on, partly for the latter's suicide attempts. Why couldn't he hold himself to that? The only answer is that There Are No Therapists.

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I also remember how powerful Britannia was for the entire series. The Black Knights had to work very hard just to liberate Japan; destroying the entire Britannian Empire was never going to be easy, or even relatively painless. I remain thoroughly unconvinced that the Zero Requiem entailed significantly more destruction, as a sum total, than the other routes open to Lelouch. Particularly when one considers that he would've had to face all of Schneizel's FLEIJAs whatever the case.

Let's not forget that at the end, the BKs were worfing down on the Britannian mooks.

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But Nunnally was never fooled! She knew what Schneizel was and what he was doing. She just judged that she could turn it into something positive, and believed that Lelouch was as terrible as he was making himself out to be (and before you say anything, she never had a chance to user her 'lie detector' on Lelouch at that stage).

I was talking about using the lie detector on Schneizel. This was why she declared Lelouch her enemy in the first place. Please read more carefully.

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Anyway, I'll concede that as far as the Black Knights go (or rather, Ohgi, Tohdoh and Tamaki), they held the idiot ball at least somewhat with regards to Schneizel's revelations. Nevertheless, it's called the idiot ball because it's an instance of people behaving uncharacteristically stupidly. The whole reason the entire affair was so egregious in the first place was because we expected better of all of them. The point is, therefore, that usually, they're not idiots. They're at least competent, even if they're no geniuses. And that's enough. Lelouch left things to them because he trusted their hearts to be in the right place, not because he thought they were the most brilliant administrators on the planet. Again, they have Schneizel for the canny politicking. All they need to do is not fuck up. I do believe that that is within their capability.

I will concede on Ohgi, though. I have no idea how he wound up Prime Minister after the war. Still, in the defence of Lelouch and the plan, I don't think that was something he was specifically gunning for.

And that is part of why I don't see the ending as a particularly ideal one. Lelouch dead and Ohgi as Prime Minister = massive leadership/brain trust net loss.

Ohgi's the one I was implicating in the betrayal, since he fell for Schneizel first. (Not to mention the counts of hypocrisy and idiocy he never answered for.)

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Yes, because everyone with a stockpile of nukes is automatically seen as the epitome of evil, even by their own people. That's why the Cold War was just one long revolution against the governments of the USA and the Soviet Union.

I'll answer this below.

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"Barring Schneizel" is a pretty huge caveat. And carte blanche to do what exactly? Reform the world? I don't think the vested interests in Britannia would have gone along quietly with that just because Charles happened to be dead.

He had other options. He had a clean slate. He could have declared Charles as an anti-example if he wanted.

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And I've explained why it's not just some 'power of love' ending. There are tangible reasons for it to have worked as well as an intangible feeling of goodwill.

I know he wouldn't have. I'm saying I'm not convinced that he had better options than the Zero Requiem in front of him.

Would that Europe were a single nation. We Europhiles can be dream... snark over exact wording aside, though, I repeat: there is no reason why what worked for Europe cannot work for the world as a whole, given time, effort and a little flexibility. Africa and the Middle East are still seething pits of conflict and/or poverty because no one has, yet, invested the appropriate amounts of resources and know-how into improving the situation there (and I don't just mean outsiders, I mean, probably more importantly, people on the inside as well). I see no good reason why, some day, they couldn't adopt similar models to the European Union. Not identical, certainly, but similar? It could work.

Besides, this is a fictional world. It doesn't have to adhere to quite the same standards as the real world to be credible. Or, rather, so that it doesn't seem like I'm trying to move the goalposts: what standards the real world does adhere to are the subject of much philosophical debate and controversy. A fictional world, by contrast, adheres to a comparatively explicit set of standards, and these standards are allowed to be towards the optimistic end of the possible rang of standards applicable to the real world whilst still being 'realistic'. Of course, how far that acceptable range extends is a subjective matter, so there's only so far we can argue over it.

Unfortunately, it "not being all sunshine and rainbows" hurts the case made for ZR, as there was already a huge price to be paid.

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The anti-FLEIJA device was crucial to Lelouch's ultimate success, luck or no luck. Without it, he would've been defeated, no matter how much luck he had. More importantly, Lelouch needed as much time as he ultimately got not just for her to develop it but to find her as well. If he'd precipitated the conflict sooner, he probably wouldn't have found her in time at all. In which case, he'd have lost.

Please reread. I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that him finding her and the development of the anti-FLEIJA device all happened AFTER Lelouch emerged as Emperor, and the device was being worked on while the FLEIJAs were being fired. He could have conceivably found her and asked her to begin work during the interim month prior to his reappearance. Then the playing field would be evened out a bit more against Schneizel, and he would be better equipped to deal with him however he wanted.

Well just a thought, but Nina had been holed away working away on......something..... at Ashford before Lelouch even finds her. It wouldn't be too unlikely for her to have already been working on a theorectical Anti Frieja before Lelouch even came to power, having been snapped out of her hate on upon seing the devastation she had wrought, and wanting to fix it somehow. Lelouch simply gave her the resources to actually make it. Which would also explain why she agreed to work with him so easily.

Lelouch might have even known this somehow, since he boarders on being claivoyant at the end of the series, and somehow knows and predicts everything.

Well just a thought, but Nina had been holed away working away on......something..... at Ashford before Lelouch even finds her. It wouldn't be too unlikely for her to have already been working on a theorectical Anti Frieja before Lelouch even came to power, having been snapped out of her hate on upon seing the devastation she had wrought, and wanting to fix it somehow. Lelouch simply gave her the resources to actually make it. Which would also explain why she agreed to work with him so easily.

True. The process might have been expedited by him getting into contact with her earlier on though.

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Lelouch might have even known this somehow, since he boarders on being claivoyant at the end of the series, and somehow knows and predicts everything.

With that in mind, it's a big waste, given the loss of a strategic mind in Lelouch and the Mt. Fuji explosion likely causing an energy crisis.

With the gain of the first lasting peace the world has had in centuries, if not ever.

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Originally Posted by azul120

Whether or not he'd be a good peacetime leader, he'd be useful for something or other, considering that we see Cornelia and Guilford helping out during the post-series picture drama.

Irrelevant. Whether or not he'd be good for something, anything is not the issue here. The issue is whether he'd have had the skill to take the 'good leader' path you're suggesting in place of Zero Requiem. He might have been good for something, sure - but good for fixing the entire world? With the method you're suggesting, I'm arguing not.

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Originally Posted by azul120

He doesn't necessarily have to be under the beck and call of the geass every single moment.

Excuse me? Yes he does. That's how Lelouch's Geass works. The Geass binds them until the order is completed. For an order like Schneizel's, which is never completed, that means until the day they die.

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Originally Posted by azul120

I'm not saying I necessarily condone it, but I understand. Objectively speaking, suicide is something that should be overcome. Lelouch was ultimately being selfish in his reasons. Ideally he would have realized that since it wasn't only about Nunnally, he would have carried on without her, and for added effect, eventually taken C. C.'s code. I mean, he basically punished Suzaku into living on, partly for the latter's suicide attempts. Why couldn't he hold himself to that? The only answer is that There Are No Therapists.

I repeat: if it were just about suicide, he could quite easily have followed through on his plan of locking himself in the World of C - or, indeed, simply have let Suzaku kill him after they'd defeated Charles and Marianne and Suzaku was about to. The whole point of the Zero Requiem was that whilst, yes, Lelouch was feeling suicidal, he accepted that he couldn't just bow out of the world and duck his responsibilities. So he created a plan which allowed him to do both. And I don't think he was merely delusional in believing that it was a fulfilment of his responsibilities, for the reasons I've explained.

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Originally Posted by azul120

Let's not forget that at the end, the BKs were worfing down on the Britannian mooks.

The Britannians had far more elite Knightmare Frames, though. Also, whilst in Japan the Black Knights had the entirety of their force against, necessarily, but a fraction of the Britannian forces, that would have changed had the war continued and Britannia been pushed into more of a corner. It's wishful thinking to believe that that war would have been anything but difficult and bloody.

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Originally Posted by azul120

I was talking about using the lie detector on Schneizel. This was why she declared Lelouch her enemy in the first place. Please read more carefully.

And that is part of why I don't see the ending as a particularly ideal one. Lelouch dead and Ohgi as Prime Minister = massive leadership/brain trust net loss.

Ohgi's the one I was implicating in the betrayal, since he fell for Schneizel first. (Not to mention the counts of hypocrisy and idiocy he never answered for.)

This I'll concede to you, actually. Ohgi got off scot free, and worse profited greatly out of the entire affair. That was a notable flaw in the ending. I don't feel it discredited the entire thing, though.

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Originally Posted by azul120

He had other options. He had a clean slate. He could have declared Charles as an anti-example if he wanted.

It wouldn't have accomplished the same thing. The Britannian people thought well enough of Charles, even those outside the aristocracy. That was why a more egalitarian demon had to be created - the Demon Emperor Lelouch.

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Originally Posted by azul120

Unfortunately, it "not being all sunshine and rainbows" hurts the case made for ZR, as there was already a huge price to be paid.

Of course it would be nice if ZR could have accomplished the Second Coming realistically. But I don't think the problems which do remain fatally discredit it, compared with other paths which could have been taken.

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Originally Posted by azul120

Please reread. I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that him finding her and the development of the anti-FLEIJA device all happened AFTER Lelouch emerged as Emperor, and the device was being worked on while the FLEIJAs were being fired. He could have conceivably found her and asked her to begin work during the interim month prior to his reappearance. Then the playing field would be evened out a bit more against Schneizel, and he would be better equipped to deal with him however he wanted.

Well, okay, that's a bit more fair. It wasn't clear from what you originally said, though. If I had to raise a defence of Lelouch, it would be this: with what resources? When he was Emperor, he had an army and a whole bunch of other personnel to go look for Nina. Before that, he had just himself, C.C. and Suzaku. Given that she was actively trying not to be found, that does seem a tall task, even if he does have a headstart or two on where to look. That said, it begs the question a little of what exactly he was doing in the month before he declared himself emperor. I won't pretend to have the answer to that.

At any rate, though, I'll say this: you can certainly poke the odd hole in Code Geass' ending. You can poke more than the odd hole in Code Geass in general. It's never been the sort of series to go for a 100% consistent plot. It sacrifices, where a choice has to be made, coherence for style. That can indeed be seen as a bad thing, and if it bothers you then you probably shouldn't be watching the series in the first place. But if you take that as read, then I believe that the Zero Requiem doesn't have such logical problems as to existentially endanger it, and moreover that thematically it provides a near-perfect (though not entirely perfect) conclusion to the series. Which, as I've said in the past, is why I defend it.

I say that while the series was great, not all characters had awesome stories. Take C. C. for example, she had much potential yet we only see Suzaku and Lelouch.
The best part was the ending. No show has made me cry and despite the fact that I saw he ending before I saw the series I cried for a long time.

Kallen and Lelouch are what drew me to CG. KMFs were great too, though they went all Super Roboty in R2.

Geass and that Lelouch wasn't a goodie two shoes warrior and instead had to rely on his intellect to win and did questionable things to reach his goals. His flaws were also nice as well, they made him more entertaining when things blew up in his face.

The end was infuriating. Ohgi and co. deserved death for their stupidity and Lelouch and Kallen deserved better. At least there's SRW that fixed that ending with its Believe in Zero Route.

Anyone who has ever complained about my ranting and ravings, just look at this, Klashikari, utterly destroyed Code Geass.

I have stated that I feel people are not hard enough, and you hit a home run, that was simply beautiful. I also can't find any real fault with your logic.

They didn't answer a whole lot, and as I stated except for about 5 characters the character development was crap.

While some of it can be blamed on the time change, a lot of it can't, they chose to empasize plot twists over actual story telling, they chose to ignore developing characters, and for that you have a ton of characters you hate.

A 10/10 shouldn't need defending since it should be perfect.

A 10/10 shouldn't have any characters you hate.

A 10/10 shouldn't include the words The Scrappy

A 10/10 shouldn't include the words Rescue from the Scrappy Heap

A 10/10 shouldn't leave you wondering what happened

An example my favorite manga is FMA, and I love every single character, I love the Chimeras, I love the soldiers, I love the plot, I love the villains. They don't have a lot of plot twists, because you don't need plot twists.

For that review you deserve a postive rep

I have given you your postive rep

I joined this forum simply to reply to your post. Firstly, I would like to point out that the character development in FMA isn't much greater. It primarily focuses on Al and Ed, and minorly develops the rest of the cast. Code Geass, from the start, was about the lives of two boys, Suzaku and Lelouch, similarly to FMA. Pieces on a chess board don't all have unique personalities, but certain ones do. CG focused on expanding key characters, and developed the less major characters in a more subtle way. In R1, they primarily focused on developping Lelouche, Suzaku, Euphemia, C2, as well as Kallen. These five are obvious, but if you re-watch the series more than once, you will notice several minor developments occurring at the same time. Viletta & Cornelia are noteworthy mentions, Viletta in particular since she ends up with an 11 which at the start would have seemed preposterous. Jeremiah, while he has a more sporadic growth, still develops nicely and adds a layer of depth to the ending.

When people say that character development is lacking, I often question whether they really paid attention to the minor details. Watching the show twice often reveals information and details often missed the first time.

I personally rate CG on the top of my personal favourite anime. Is it a perfect 10? Probably not, but then again, no anime is. I have watched/read many series, One Piece, Naruto, Gundam Seed, Gundam 00, Gurren Lagann, Gundam Endless Waltz, Black Cat, Rave Master, .Hack//Sign, 666 Satan, Reborn!, Fairy Tail, Death Note, Bleach, FMA, HotD, D.Gray Man, DBZ and many more. They all have their own little quirks which makes them not perfect. That being said,and none have left me with the feelings Code Geass does.

Maybe it's cause i watched the series in 4 hour intevals, but Code Geass had some of the strongest messages in an Anime i have ever experienced. The experience Okouchi portrays through Lelouch is incredibly deep and really allows the viewer to feel the pain and wavering emotions he is experiencing. I view many plot twists as a test to Lelouches emotions and dedication to his cause. When Nunally is re-dubbed a Britannian Princess, when Lelouch discovers his mother knew of her assassination, he is constantly forced to re-think his objectives and re-affirm himself of his resolve.

I will not deny that the series has its ups and downs, but EVERY series does. Even a series viewed by many as perfect, such as One Piece (don't get me wrong, i love the series) has intervals that I am not too fond of. The messages of CG delve deep and the ending helps solidify the message. For those reasons, I view CG as my favourite anime of all time.

A melancholic story blooms a beautiful flower of illumination and reverence.

To me, CG is perfect without being perfect.

"Even heroes have moments they loathe. Its the ability to push through and discern those moments that defines them" ~ Kachi DeNoir

I joined this forum simply to reply to your post. Firstly, I would like to point out that the character development in FMA isn't much greater. It primarily focuses on Al and Ed, and minorly develops the rest of the cast. Code Geass, from the start, was about the lives of two boys, Suzaku and Lelouch, similarly to FMA. Pieces on a chess board don't all have unique personalities, but certain ones do. CG focused on expanding key characters, and developed the less major characters in a more subtle way. In R1, they primarily focused on developping Lelouche, Suzaku, Euphemia, C2, as well as Kallen. These five are obvious, but if you re-watch the series more than once, you will notice several minor developments occurring at the same time. Viletta & Cornelia are noteworthy mentions, Viletta in particular since she ends up with an 11 which at the start would have seemed preposterous. Jeremiah, while he has a more sporadic growth, still develops nicely and adds a layer of depth to the ending.

These two didn't change sufficiently. Neither absolved themselves of their wrongdoing (Villetta for her selfishness at the expense of everyone fighting against Britannia, not to mention Shirley, and Cornelia for her role in Pax Britannia).

Yeah, seems no one in the Geass world remembered that Cornelia was publicly working with Schneziel and only changed her mind behind closed doors. Yet the rebels gladly worked with their former tormentor to try and deal with Lelouch. The sad thing is that we aren't shown Lelouch doing anything "evil" after he won the war other than making everyone believe that he wanted to execute his enemies.

Does anyone have the results of the Animedia character polls for '08 (and possibly '07)? It says Rolo was voted most heroic for '08.

Well he did sacrifice his own life to save Lelouch (even if Lelouch was a fucking douche towards him). To me that is the most heroic thing anyone can do in real life or in fiction especially if that person hated you.

Yeah. Just because Rolo was psychoticly obsessed enough with Lelouch to die for him doesn't make him heroic. He still killed Shirley, was going to kill Nunnally (and was pretty clearly glad she was apparantly dead) and probably would have killed anyone ever who ever got close to Lelouch. The only reason he probably didn't kill C.C. was because he couldn't. And Lelouch being in that situation was partially Rolo's fault, as the reason he was acting so erratic and secretly took out the Geass order under the BK's nose was because of Rolo.

In short. No. Rolo was still a very dangerous, very unstable sociopathic killer, and would have just repeatedly caused Lelouch problems. Calling him heroic for one act of helping Lelouch is incredibly biased in favor of Lelouch (which most of the Geass fanbase is anyway so....)