First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

(thanks, Panda!)

mga gave this word of caution at POAC and I think it would work here as well:

Quote:

they monitor forums all the time...left wing and right wing. remember, there are many right wing nuts out there who would love to start a militia type group to battle the left.

as long as you do NOT mention violence, or anything of the sort against any government person or body, we (still) have the right to speak our minds.

just don't cross the line and speak of violence against the government!!!!

your IP address can be easily obtained. even i have a program that can trace a person's IP providor with every detail including a home address. so, if i can do it, the government can do it better.

That's a fair warning Catherine. But what about the previous postings ? Those are there for the reading enjoyment of anyone and everyone.

Although there are plenty of tools available to enable any given user to hide behind another user's IP or to highjack an IP, if they want to find you out, they will. This is one reason why I don't bother trying to hide my true identity. I also believe it's our duty to speak out about what's going down. By pressuring us into thinking we have to shut up ....they're effectively pushing us out of the internet and on to alternative means of communication / less effective means of communication.

I wonder if my mentioning one religion's word for God and is great along side God Bless etc. was the reason for the organised visits on the other site.

By pressuring us into thinking we have to shut up ....they're effectively pushing us out of the internet and on to alternative means of communication / less effective means of communication.

I'm not feeling any pressure about this. I only posted it because TJ has seen fit to put it into his news headlines AND to post it at the POAC board, more as an alert than anything else. I think all of us who are unhappy with the Bush administration are aware of what they're capable of doing under the guise of the Patriot Act and other fear tactics they're using to control those who don't want to think for themselves.

We're doing nothing wrong here, or at POAC, or at any other political discussion board, and I fully intend to continue to post information and to respond to the information of others in the manner to which I have become accustomed...peaceful resistance with free speech. We still have that right under the Constitution. The idea, at least to me, is to RAISE THE AWARENESS of everyone reading TVNL, not only to good sources of info, but also to things like this. What better way to illustrate the fascism that seems to be so prevalent in our country now?

Thank the gods for the "INTERNETS."

As to your post being the catalyst for the watchers at POAC, I doubt it. Lots of guests lurk, both here and over there, so I'm guessing that when a board gets a certain membership and is rather active, it just goes on a watch list.

Catherine

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

i'm wondering if, when the time comes and a democrat is president, if the FBI or whomever else does the watching, will be hanging at the right wing forums?

i don't doubt they do monitor forums, but i believe they are only looking for some extreme nut case who might openly suggest a violent, or armed rebellion. it doesn't matter if they are right or left...both sides have them.

additionally, i'm sure they monitor conservative forums, especially anti-abortion ones, because they might speak of violence against a clinic, for example.

so, it might be good to have them watching even tho it feels like big brother is over my shoulder.

This is probably a good reminder to new people. I believe those of us who have been posting to sites like this for years now are aware we could very well be on someone's list. The thing is, we are speaking freely in what is supposed to be a free country. To not speak out is to disrespect the true meaning of our Constitution and of America itself.

probably because your site has some great, well written posts and editorials, where as some sites are just the same old same old.

personally, i enjoy reading all of them, and the latest addition, alonzo fyfe, has made an excellent contribution. i'm patiently wating for his next article to arrive.

it's the people who have taken the time to write some well thought out articles here that attracted me. i'm no where close to being a writer, but i do like to be mentally entertained and challenged, and nothing does that more than a thought provoking post.

This is probably a good reminder to new people. I believe those of us who have been posting to sites like this for years now are aware we could very well be on someone's list. The thing is, we are speaking freely in what is supposed to be a free country. To not speak out is to disrespect the true meaning of our Constitution and of America itself.

Dissent is patriotic!

I totally agree. A real democracy encourages dissent and contrary opinion. It is what makes a nation great just like an intelllectual discussion. The essence of debate is free speech. Free speech is that thing which reveals truth. If it is stifled it does not work and cannot do what it is intended to do.

How can you move forward unless you debate the issues of the day, issues that may divide the nation or even a corporation? The resolution of conflict is sometimes found in contrary opinion. Debate, opinion, and even dissent should be part of any modern organization, and especially of government.

If we should notice a government trying to conceal the business of free speech then I say it is encumbent upon all of us to expose the perpetrators of this societal wrong and bring the guilty parties to account. That is why free speech is so important. Some people in government especially, forget about this important detail in the administration of things. But, it is our job to remind them, constantly and forcefully if necessary. We may want to remind them, for example, that if is most likely the business of free speech that got them to where they are today. Don't you think that they would appreciate this friendly reminder? A reminder perhaps of their more humbler beginnings.

_________________My life is full of optimism and I am not going to stop living until I know the answers to all of the important things, like why does love exist.

Congress has been working on Net Neutrality. Should be coming up soon IF it can make it by the people who want to harness the net. Big money can be had if companies can be given the right to put stop and go signs on our highway.

Just One More Thing said:

Quote:

Free speech is that thing which reveals truth. If it is stifled it does not work and cannot do what it is intended to do.

Handing the internet over to companies would do just that, stifle free speech.

As I posted in the new forum guidelines, this board leans to the LEFT, but we're open to dissenting opinions as long as those who have those opinions follow the forum guidelines. Free speech is very important to us, and the Free Speech Zones started by the Bushies gave us an idea to establish a Free Speech Zone for those who prefer to come here as trolls and troublemakers.

There's nothing like having the tables turned on you to make you start thinking about what you've actually done. TVNL's Free Speech Zone is in the Funny Forum.

Catherine

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

Yes, I think this is the challenge. This is the market, if you will, the hardcore 30% Evangelical Christian population. Bush has this group locked up has he not? These are the jewels of the election to be protected at all costs. Republicans use any kind of rhetoric about no stem cell research, toughness on homosexuality, promotion of family and Christian principles, etc. And, also included in this package is the security of Israel. The Christians seem to have some kind of affinity to the Judaic relgion and therefore are drawn in easily to the support of the Iraq War. ( Christianity vs Islam ) It is easy, for example, to promote the idea of Arab terrorists to a group like this.

The above Christian population is not really listening to the Democrats as an alternative when the Bush Administration already offers to them things that they want. I can think all the way back to the Reagan Administration when they courted the Christian population. They ( all Christians ) seem easy prey for the Republicans and their propaganda.

So, religion seems to be an important thing in America. Don't know why, but it is. I don't think any kind of presidential candidate is going to say anything other than he is some kind of practicing Christian. He doesn't have to be, but he at least has to say that he is. Maybe like George Bush, for example. Anyhow, this is a crucial group it seems and any propagandist from any party would probably want to influence the Christian population in some way.

Clinton did it. Didn't he? Democrats can win elections. But, not right now. How come? Most likely because of the Iraq War and false terrorism, that is my best guess. I am not saying here that Democrats are any better as an alternative to the Republicans, I am just saying that they are capable of winning if conditions are right. ( Democratic politicians seem to be guided by the same things as Republicans, namely money and bribery through the PAC system ) So, how do we get the sheeple to change their minds? Isn't that the central challenge of the day? But, lets us say you do in fact find a strategy to improve your chances with the Evangelicals, and in fact all Christians. And, why not go for the jumbo. Lets us say you can actually reach the general population with good propaganda and good policy. Just something practical and logical. Like exposing Bush and his lies and his policies, etc. It is working now is it not? Republicans themselves are starting to question some of the policies. The goal, of course is to reach the whole population and just simply tell them that the country is going down the tube and here is your damn evidence. Tell them plainly like this: Set your Christianity aside just for a moment and think about what you are doing by voting for Bush. Just spell it out. Plainly and simply.

Ok, so you convinced them. So what? If anyone has been paying attention for the last six years or so they will realize that we still have a small problem on our hands. And, yes I mean hands, but more specifically fingers. I am talking about voting folks. You bring the sheeple to the water and they actually drink it. Except it doesn't get digested because they have a Diebold intestinal system.

_________________My life is full of optimism and I am not going to stop living until I know the answers to all of the important things, like why does love exist.

Except it doesn't get digested because they have a Diebold intestinal system.

All excellent!!

I wanted to focus on this just a bit.

Look at what is going on in Mexico right now. There were millions marching in protest over the vote fraud, heck, they pretty much shut down the city. Now I read somewhere that they are still having major problems, right now the government is split, one group following the (so called) elected president, and the other group following the one that lost due to fraud. These people are taking action in a magnificent fashion!

What did we do?

America has lost its will for freedom. We are either so focused on ourselves, or lazy, or afraid that we were willing to sit back and watch 2 presidential elections get stolen with barely a whimper. Ahhh yes, America the great.

I honestly think that our forefathers would spit on us in . Many fought and died to obtain the freedoms that we once had, yet we piss it all away. Should we not have the same fire in our souls as they had? Shouldn't we be willing to sacrifice as much as they have to keep that which they fought so hard to obtain?

We have failed. We were given something that was priceless, something that we should have watched as if our lives depended on it (because it did), yet we fell asleep. We allowed ourselves to be lulled by the voice of tyranny. We should be ashamed.

Many have become so brainwashed into thinking that this government can do no wrong that they will find a reason to defend its actions no matter how bad these actions are. Talk about being obediently blind.

So here we have it. Mexico. A country that so many Americans talk about with disdain is showing Americans what true courage is.

They are willing to stand up and demand what is right. Now the big question is, what will it take to get the American people to stand up?

We have not done it yet, what makes anyone think it will be different now?

Who among us is willing to throw our lives away for a cause that is greater than ourselves?

There are a few out there. Cindy Sheehan comes to mind. She is a true patriot. Until enough people are willing to do exactly what Cindy is doing, they will continue to run this government just as they want, not as the people want.

Just something to think on.

_________________CrimsonEagleThe war to end all wars can only be fought on the front-lines of the mind.

The greatest deception they have perpetrated is that we need them. Our greatest mistake is that we believe them.