@Deatzh: I don't know why but I've always found that some exercise seems to actually improve mood as well as body. For some reason, I think we all just feel really positive after we've done some walking or a few squats, push-ups and sit-ups.

@UIS: I think we need a scale to follow here, some measurement from 0 to 100. 0 is probably getting a call that a relative/friend has died. 100 would have to be in the middle of unstoppable laughter... or a great orgasm

@Deatzh: I don't know why but I've always found that some exercise seems to actually improve mood as well as body. For some reason, I think we all just feel really positive after we've done some walking or a few squats, push-ups and sit-ups.

2. Told the Mrs. that I want a divorce3. Went out and shopped for some Microwave meals.4. Moved into the spare bedroom.

Why? What happened?

Haven't you been reading the threads? *lol* End result is we got home from a weekend with my grandparents and she saw that I'd put roach bombs on the dinning room table and coffee table. She knew I was putting them out before we left but apparently had a severe aversion to me putting them on tables and decided to start a silent treatment and storm about cleaning up and going off at me. It might seem insignificant alone but it was the final straw in a recent spout that covers me not even getting a single kiss since early December and a 1.5 week long silent treatment she gave me around the same time.

Told her later that we needed to talk and when she settled down and came to me I dropped the bomb. We actually separated in September 2008 and have been trying to fix it and get closer. Heck we actually made significant progress from where we started but I think the progress has ground to a halt and I'm just aware of a few differences between our personalities which we're unlikely to overcome and will probably leave us both wanting and ultimately unsatisfied.

She feels loved when she's made to feel safe, protected and nurtured, etc. So housework is a good thing but she has standards that I don't tend to rise to. She has severe trouble inviting people over or going to parties or even out with people because it's going outside, or invading her comfort zone. It's difficult for her to spend money, even on herself, because she needs the security of the money in the bank. This competes with me who's much more free with spending, going out, inviting people and working casually rather than diligently.

Intimacy, passion, affection and romance makes me feel loved. But she easily feels crowded so it's difficult to even get a cuddle and kisses don't go much beyond pecks on the lips because she's easily grossed out by pashing and french kissing. Sex and intimacy is very difficult for her as it makes her feel dirty and disgusted (pretty much imagine that your mother is in the room watching you have sex or get frisky and you probably have her problem). I'm a romantic at heart, I seriously love the cheesy stuff, more in a fun way than a serious way but she's just too self-conscious about feeling silly and having fun with it, even when alone. Actually, I can seriously recall buying her flowers when I picked her up from work once and the first thing she said was "how much did they cost?"

Most of the people here will look at that and just think that she needs to loosen up more but it really is fault on both sides and I'm probably just not putting her case forward very well. In the end we just have very different ways of feeling loved and we both fall short of each other's expectations.

The other unfortunate thing is that it's hard for her to admit that we have issues and she avoids relationship conversations with me because she wants to ignore the issues rather than feel insecure by facing them. One fortunate thing about this divorce move is that it's forced her to face it so she's actually talking and discussing now. I personally don't think we'll be able to reach a compromise that we can both live with for the rest of our lives together but I don't plan to avoid or ignore her efforts so I'll attend any marriage counseling and work with her rather than against her. Heck if there is a chance we can find happiness together I'm not going to be stubborn and miss it.

Sort of know how that feels towards the end of my engagment. I was trying hard to make it work ok I did not go out much since I was at uni for three days then working for three nights so I was pretty much wasted when Saturday came round. Thin kshe was having an affair/s not sure but the feeling was there wanted to ask and find out what was happening but in the end we broke up and by then it was not really worth finding out.

Logged

What good is dreaming it if you don't actually do it?.

leana

@ Charles...I'm sorry...Many things go past me...I can focus on stuff...but i guess most of the time i'm just in here to "relax and have fun"... Anyway that's kind off major, Charles....Why did you like her in the first place, cause she sounds so very diffrent to you?@ Odd....that must have given your self-esteem a downwards shock...

@ The shrink's sofaI think i do have a problem too....I try to do 3 things at the same time,like studying, surfing on the net,eating and watching tv at the same time...It doesn't work and gets me nowhere... I start with things and stop them...But i guess it's not such a big deal, cause i do realize after an hour or two that it doesn't work...

Why did I like her in the first place? Well she was different. She was far more intimate, affectionate, passionate and romantic when we were dating and engaged. Much more care-free and adventurous too.

We dated for a year before I proposed and were then engaged for about 3 years before we married. We didn't live together before we married but the relationship was sexual.

At school she was in sports such as discus, shotput and javelin together with swimming and her school's debate team. She was into arts and crafts and worked at her parent's pizza joint. She's never been particularly outgoing but she had a group of friends and would go to their places or invite them over and hang out. She was fairly intimate and willing to have some fun with our love making as well as enjoying some of my cheesy/corny romance and even giving some back.

Effectively the woman I married is VERY different from the woman I'm married to 6 years later. As her stress, abuse and insecurity gained, my own life sort of became more reclusive and I lost myself as I set into a routine of going to work, coming home and just phasing out into television. But sometime through 2008 I ripped myself out of it and found my old adventurous self. I started getting out more, even if she didn't want to come along and no matter how much she yelled at me for going. I rediscovered the joys of socialising online and pulled trips and efforts to visit my old friends I hadn't seen in years and see my own family more often.

I've just come to realise that she isn't the same person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with 6.5 years ago and I'm not interested in spending the next 40+ years with who she is now.

It almost sounds like she's unhealthy emotionally, like living with some deep, possibly suppressed fears, if she's that reliant on security-type emotions, to the point that she loses her shit when her security framework breaks down in small ways, and also is uncomfortable with talking things over.

I've certainly seen people come out of stuff like that though.

Not saying you're not doing the right thing though...this may be just what she needs. It's important to actively love your partner, and it sounds like she's not doing that - not remaining conscious of the fact that she loves you as she chooses her responses to things you do that bother her. If she does love you, she oughtn't want to lose you. On the other hand, some people think it's ok to have a relationship without love, or don't know how to love, or attach for negative reasons or out of habit instead of loving, etc etc...

Leana: I still do the same thing after years of knowing it doesn't work, so I'm no help. Not all the time, but sometimes (usually when I'm stressed out or lazy) I still try it thinking it'll be different this time

What happened to her? Well... I have some theories and thoughts. Before we married she was always living with family and attending some sort of education fulltime. First she was at high-school living with her family, then she moved 600km away to the city to attend university, living with her sister and I followed her there, getting a job and renting a 2 bed room unit. Eventually we married, she moved in with me and 6 months later she finished her Uni and started working.

Talking with the marriage counselor over a year ago she asked us to take a list of people/groups and put them in a sort of order based on priority for who's needs we regard as more important (it was worded differently but lets go on that). Below is how an individual's list should look, how mine looked and how hers looked.

.........................CORRECTYourselfPartnerFamilyFriendsWork

.........................MINEPartnerYourselfFamilyFriendsWork

.........................HERSFamilyFriendsWorkYourself + Partner

Thats wasn't the list I put up at the time since I'd obviously corrected the problem of always putting her needs before my own and had switched it, but before that it was the list I had for much of our marriage and dating. But the interesting point she made is that she didn't think of us as different but as the same. Sweet but when we're both down at the bottom... Yeah, basically the thing to remember about this list is that she regarded everyone else's needs, perceptions, opinions and stuff as not only more important than her own but more important than the one person she should love more than anyone else. The important thing is that by thinking of us as one she was not only constantly worried about everyone's opinion, perception and criticism of her but also gaged any actions of mine as reflecting on her. My failures are her failures, negative perceptions of me are negative perceptions of her, etc.

My theory is that before we married and moved in together, she still regarded us as separate and probably had me at the top of her list, thus she didn't see my actions as reflect on her and regarded my perceptions and needs very highly, thus having no problem with being romantic, intimate, affectionate and never going off at me.

Essentially the insecurity has always been there but I was at the top of the list during our dating, engagement and early marriage so like everyone else, I was never really able to spot it since she'd never want to have a breakdown, throw a tantrum or get angry at me and affect my perception of her. Now thats no longer the case she's very aware of people's perceptions of corny or cheesy romance together with affection and intimacy (going back to my example that even in the seclusion of our bedroom she would act as if her mother was in the room).

At first I thought it was just stress from her work and that if we had children then she could quit her work to look after them and all would be right with the world (this was her opinion as well). But I've come to realise that work stress isn't the entire story and if we did have children guess where they would end up on the list... right down with me and her. Their actions and failures being perceived as her own.

The solution lies in her somehow changing this list and putting herself back on top with me in second place. So it's not even going back to exactly what we had before since that would still have her at the bottom of her own list with me at the top. I asked for marriage counseling for quite sometime and even suggested she should see a psychiatrist about her stress but she never would because of her insecurity about people's perceptions on herself and her marriage. By going to such people, that would be acknowledging there were issues and she couldn't do that. It wasn't until I separated from her and put a countdown to divorce on the table that she knew there was no more hiding. We corrected things for a while and, as before, there's certainly been a severe reduction in the abuse but there's still issues and I've had to set the clock once again to get her to acknowledge it and agree to work on it.

terminology aside you can see how the order the we each held was the cause of our demise.

I put her before myself so instead of standing up for myself when the abuse started I succumb to it and groveled every time for forgiveness basically setting in her subconscious that threatening and abusing me was the correct way to behave.

If I had my the "correct" order I'd have been standing up for myself. But as before, the psychologist worded it differently to how I described it as an order of priorities as to who's needs come first. Even I can acknowledge that MY phrasing doesn't quite sit right as it almost immediately brings up images of psychopaths who have no regard what-so-ever for others and are happy to kill or maim them for the most minor of reasons and desires. But I remember thinking it was fine whatever way the marriage counselor had said it *shrug*

I've seen similar applications of it in Dr. Phil shows and other stuff where he's had mothers who have come in and they're at their wits end because they're putting their children's well-being high and above their own and as the psychs have told them, it's not healthy for the children if their mother is stressed because she's not addressing her own needs.

Obviously we all need to have a certain level of compassion for other, etc. But you can hardly help or look out for others if you're not looking out for yourself first and letting your own life go down the toilet.

My Mrs is the perfect example of what happens when someone puts everyone else before themselves as her life is rules by people's opinions and perceptions of her and it caused an incredible amount of stress to go through life like her every action and aspect is getting judged and measured by others.

@CDSM: I can only tell you that you're headed for the same disaster I am if you put your partner before yourself. It's not necessarily that she/he is abusive but they'll learn to tread on you because they'll find it works every time since you won't stand up for yourself and demand yourself to be treated fairly.

@CDSM: I can only tell you that you're headed for the same disaster I am if you put your partner before yourself. It's not necessarily that she/he is abusive but they'll learn to tread on you because they'll find it works every time since you won't stand up for yourself and demand yourself to be treated fairly.

Trust me, I'm no doormat. I do this because I choose to, and I make it clear that it is because of my good will and value system, not because I'm granting them any sort of power over me.Because I understand that putting someone else before myself doesn't mean acquiescing to every little thing they want.

While I tend to be martyrish towards those I care about and I let myself be walked over to a degree, the moment it starts to effect me more than just a little I'll lash out. I don't mean lash out violently or anything, it can be anything from simply no longer putting them before me to very angry yelling...

It's all very very situational, I have no problem being used in certain ways, hell I often will put myself in the position on purpose.

We're talking "NEEDS" rather than "wants" or "desires". Those are fairly important. It suggest things that are necessities or which you shouldn't go without.

If you have a need to be social and get out of the house to enjoy time with friends or something, your partner pressures you to not go out and stay at home and you obey then thats fairly serious.

But if you're saying you're no doormat and if you need to get out and have a life and enjoy it then you'll stand up for yourself and do it then right there you're putting yourself first, as you should, and thus you have the "right" order.

EDIT: Certainly many of us are probably very loyal and accommodating to others but the important thing is that when something important comes to the crunch you'll hold fast to your own needs and core values.

If you have a need to be social and get out of the house to enjoy time with friends or something, your partner pressures you to not go out and stay at home and you obey then thats fairly serious.

If you let that happen Everytime yes bad, but the opposite isn't good either. I see no problem with staying back * or going out would probably be more likely in my situation* occasionally. It also depends on what kind of pressure your talking about

We're talking "NEEDS" rather than "wants" or "desires". Those are fairly important. It suggest things that are necessities or which you shouldn't go without.

If you have a need to be social and get out of the house to enjoy time with friends or something, your partner pressures you to not go out and stay at home and you obey then thats fairly serious.

Well, I'd ditch them if they tried that. I'm not going to partner, or even be friends, with someone that tries to pressure me.

Quote

But if you're saying you're no doormat and if you need to get out and have a life and enjoy it then you'll stand up for yourself and do it then right there you're putting yourself first, as you should, and thus you have the "right" order.

EDIT: Certainly many of us are probably very loyal and accommodating to others but the important thing is that when something important comes to the crunch you'll hold fast to your own needs and core values.

True, but if the person in question actually *needs* me to be there for them (and isn't just trying to pressure me due to clinginess, jealousy, or some other insecurity), then obviously I would stay with them.

Of course, going out isn't really a need for me, I would replace that situation with "the need to go be by myself".I try to minimize my "needs" in any case, since the majority of them are really just in my head, apart from physical ones.

Effectively I married a woman who didn't exist and the thing thats kept me going for 5+ years was hoping she would become that woman again. The woman I fell in love with and who made me feel loved every day I was with her. How are things going right now... Pretty bad.

I've had her make a few obvious moves to being a little romantic but She's still avoiding the subject quite a bit so I think I'm going to set a time for us to talk each evening. Probably only need 30 minutes. She's actually booked us a week trip to Fiji which would be great except she's constantly talking about relaxing when she gets there while I'm still wanting to use the opportunity to get out and experience the beaches, forests, water activities and culture. But heck, it's fiji so maybe it'll help something and I can't knocker her down for effort.

But the other major issue thats just come up is that her Granddad is dying... This is her last grandparent and the only one she's ever known. He's 94 years old and her mother is staying with us tonight on her way through to help look after him in his last days/weeks. To give you an idea of her mother's stress over this, she's loosing her last of her original family members (her sister and mother having died some years back).

I'm trying to work out how I continue here as while I hold little or no love for her anymore I'm not a heartless bastard and I certainly care that she's going to be dealing with a family member, who she loves dearly, dying together with the rest of her family's grief while possibly having to explain to them that her marriage has also collapsed and dealing with a divorce. I guess I just continue more gently and slowly than I may have otherwise.

Effectively I married a woman who didn't exist and the thing thats kept me going for 5+ years was hoping she would become that woman again. The woman I fell in love with and who made me feel loved every day I was with her. How are things going right now... Pretty bad.

I've had her make a few obvious moves to being a little romantic but She's still avoiding the subject quite a bit so I think I'm going to set a time for us to talk each evening. Probably only need 30 minutes. She's actually booked us a week trip to Fiji which would be great except she's constantly talking about relaxing when she gets there while I'm still wanting to use the opportunity to get out and experience the beaches, forests, water activities and culture. But heck, it's fiji so maybe it'll help something and I can't knocker her down for effort.

But the other major issue thats just come up is that her Granddad is dying... This is her last grandparent and the only one she's ever known. He's 94 years old and her mother is staying with us tonight on her way through to help look after him in his last days/weeks. To give you an idea of her mother's stress over this, she's loosing her last of her original family members (her sister and mother having died some years back).

I'm trying to work out how I continue here as while I hold little or no love for her anymore I'm not a heartless bastard and I certainly care that she's going to be dealing with a family member, who she loves dearly, dying together with the rest of her family's grief while possibly having to explain to them that her marriage has also collapsed and dealing with a divorce. I guess I just continue more gently and slowly than I may have otherwise.

Um... was there anything definitive that happed? Did she cheat on you or something? Are you just board? Why go to Fiji with her if you don't love her anymore? Don't listen to me.

@CDSM: so what are those view, values and interests (high-level, roughly)

@RoninAngel: *lol* you can read it all from my second post in this page of the thread onwards.

It started with me being significantly abused verbally and emotionally by her over a year ago and now it pretty much boils down to me being unhappy in the relationship and feeling unloved. I don't think I've really felt loved or happy in it for over 5 years. If it was something definitive like cheating then I may have broken it off immediately, but the truth is she changed, or rather, became the person she really was sometime after we married and I've stayed in for many years in the hope that it was something she'd snap out of or that if our circumstances changed (such as having children) then it would become something that made me happy again.

But I've come to the conclusion that children aren't going to change this at all and that I've been in love with the memory of a lie for all these years. I've stopped believing that I need to hold out for her to return to who I fell in love with and I've stopped believing that me loving someone or simply being in a relationship is enough.