Tarpa wrote:sorry for going so off topic, it probably should go in the lounge, perhaps we could have a forum for Buddhist witches since there are quite a few of us out there really, or a forum for Buddhism and the occult or something. (...)

I'm curious - what is a Buddhist witch?

I use Buddhist magic on a daily basis. I do preta-dana. I recite dharani partly for empowerment. I use mantra for purifying food and water. I sometimes make "holy" water to help people and cleanse places and objects. I am a Pure Land practitioner who seeks to be reborn in the Western Pure Land, which I think is some major magic. Do these make me a Buddhist witch?

A " Buddhist witch " is simply a Buddhist who is also a practicing witch, or a witch who's soteriological orientation is Buddhist. Also i.m.o. anybody practicing highest yoga tantras in general, particularly kilaya, but most especially anybody practicing yogini / varahi or any dakini practice, as their main practice / yidam. Witchcraft is simply the shamanic level of relating to the 5 elements, tantra is inner level, dzogchen secret level, but none of these levels are contradictory to each other as far as practice goes, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche shares this same view, except in his experience the shamanic level is external Bon practice rather than western witchcraft of course, but the shamanic level is the shamanic level. This level is the first 4 of the 9 levels of teaching in the southern treasury of Bon.What's the point ? Well connecting with the elements in nature and the subtler dimensions of them can be very integrating, the deeper internal aspects recognize the deeper aspects externally, it's a trigger, a simultaneous awakening, it can be very integrating and connecting with the world, brings joy, all the world is alive, manifestation of sacred light / energy inseperable with emptiness, nothing's just dead processes anymore, the world becomes a magickal place once you start seeing it that way, dralha is mutual, recognition is opening, and of course relating to the grosser levels of the elements inevitably leads to the subtler levels, everything's composed of the 5 elements, there is nothing else. It's a natural earthy way to integrate, if it works for a person then fine, if not then no point in it, that's all.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

SSJ3Gogeta wrote:Even within the New Age movement, channeled spirits were famously revealed to be psychopathic liars in "The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts" by Joe Fischer.

Some spirits channelled by Tibetan mediums are considered to give reliable advice: Tseringma, Yudolma, Nechung, to name a few and mediums in many cultures channel spirits in order to heal people, often with great success. It's wrong to presume they are all pathological liars.

Aren't all these examples subjugated spirits and deities? If anything, you proved my point.

Tilopa wrote:Some spirits channelled by Tibetan mediums are considered to give reliable advice: Tseringma, Yudolma, Nechung, to name a few and mediums in many cultures channel spirits in order to heal people, often with great success. It's wrong to presume they are all pathological liars.

Aren't all these examples subjugated spirits and deities? If anything, you proved my point.

SSJ3Gogeta wrote:Even within the New Age movement, channeled spirits were famously revealed to be psychopathic liars in "The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts" by Joe Fischer.

Some spirits channelled by Tibetan mediums are considered to give reliable advice: Tseringma, Yudolma, Nechung, to name a few and mediums in many cultures channel spirits in order to heal people, often with great success. It's wrong to presume they are all pathological liars.

Aren't all these examples subjugated spirits and deities? If anything, you proved my point.

I've never known any deva to lie to me, or a person that I've spoken to. I have no idea why they would want to lie about almost anything--although I see how pride might persuade them to under circumstances. Asuras, on the other hand, they are known to be unruly, quarrelsome, and maybe cantankerous. I've never been surprised the few times I listened to asuras and they have lied. But calling any deva, asura, or preta a "pathological liar" applies only on an individual basis. You cannot say, "humans are pathological liars" just because many humans are, because many other humans are not pathological liars. Devas are just other beings, like us, some of them might lie while others might never have lied during their lifespan. So, I don't know how such a view would come to your mind... ...

On the other hand, "spirits" or "demons" which people speak of in therapy, shamanism, animism, etc. are of course another subject altogether. Gods, demigods and hungry ghosts that I have communicated with are of course just beings and cannot all be pathological liars nor the contrary. However in medicine and dreaming, spirits such as demons or "guides" don't really follow strict rules, because they are ultimately products of mind, and their nature differs from case to case, according to individuality.

Whether some people refer to devas or asuras as their "spiritual guides" is a specific detail, because MOST PEOPLE have no idea that these other beings even exist, let alone are aware of them in any particular way. Mostly, devas are unconcerned with humans and what we do, but it is true that spiritually advanced practitioners attract the attention of these beings, and a relationship of guidance can come from that. This is more of an "instructor" and "pupil" relationship, however. In my past experience, it was often me who was using my prayer to help devas, not the other way around, for instance healing trees and transmitting positive things. However I have called upon devas' powers for health, healing, various protection, weather, and spiritual guidance. Their abilities are useful and they should always be respected.

The way that Tibetan healers are portrayed--I have never met one to have a conversation with--it seems to me that with all the talk of "subduing" and "channeling," that they are referring to spirits and not otherworldly beings like devas and asuras. Spiritual demons and what not are all crazy and mystical and usually require subduing, and so forth. What's important is never basing your views on hearsay--the Buddha himself disapproved of this. You can't learn by going off hearsay. What matters is experience and understanding it, evaluating, and focusing on the factual insight of experiences with your own reason.

Shamanist "spirit guides" have been very helpful to me in the past, and Tibet has always been a Shamanic culture, just as Thailand is hugely animistic in culture. Guiding animal totems, spirits of the dead, and demons are not devas and devas are not these spirits. Anyone who can see devas, it is obvious to them--they aren't spirits, they have solid bodies, their own mind and life and cannot be controlled by human beings.

According to oracles and demons of tibet Pehar is none too happy with having been subjugated and has expressed his intention to harm his manipulators if he ever gets the chance, expressing this on different occasions during oracles, I haven't read that book in a long time but I think it says Pehar is also known to give false information on occasion.

As far as necromancy goes it's widely opined that shades / pretas are a gamble, being known for giving false information or being false identities, this is the reason most occultists usually advise against the use of the planchette / ouija board.

It was also a fad in occult circles for a while, maybe still is, for covens mostly but also solitaires to " create " a so called " spiritual baby ", either by inventing a name of a fictitious person with an entire fictitious life history etc. wich is said to actually manifest in ritual after usually quite a long time period and much ritual, and another method that actually uses bodily fluids and physical acts, but i.m.o. this is exactly the same thing as the planchette / ouija board because it's just a shade assuming the identity being projected, maybe they like the attention, and the offerings etc.

I don't do any necromancy even though I'm also a witch, as far as shades / pretas go I just do sur offerings, I also have a lot of guardian practices and also a worldy guardian practice ( wich also includes some wisdom gaurdians but mostly a bunch of worldly ones ) that I got from Garchen Rinpoche, I also include the 4 guests and the 8 classes and the all the locals in my daily serkyem offering, so my Buddhist practice amply suffices me as far as that sort of thing goes.I don't look for any "guides" in witchcraft, my practice is only related to the elementals / nature, the planets, observing the planetary days and hours in practice, making herb sachets and herbal baths, making herbal incenses and philters, amulets, talismans, and simple tarot or pendulum divinations on occasion. I have all the classic grimoires here but I never much felt the inclination to practice them, I use witchcraft mainly to integrate with the elements and nature, the only witch diety I'm really into is the moon goddess Diana / Aradia / Habondia / Nocticula, I have a respectful relationship with the vast wilderness area around me, including superstition mountain where the dakinis dance and feast on top, of course one uses the other planets as well depending on the rite. But vajrayana Buddhism is my main thing and particularly my main yidam whom I'm very happy with for the rest of my life, I don't look for wisdom or guidance elsewhere but I do find methods of balancing, integrating, and healing elsewhere, but not really elsewhere for all this is within Tibetan and Indian culture as you pointed out, I'd like to see the shamanic part of the culture preserved with the rest but I don't think too many westerners are interested in it, Bon seems to integrate it a bit more in their teachings.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara