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Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

that being said....can anyone logically see a scenario where this team plays poorly?....just wont happen...too good...too talented...too well coached

You mean with Ron or without Ron? Or are you saying either way it's hard to imagine poor play?

the premise was with ron....cause without him the conversation really isnt relevant....

the thought process was how do u trade him midseason if the pacers are playing really well.....

to which i stated the only way that would seem reasonable for them to trade him midseason would be if they were playing poorly....and then i asked what was the possibility of them playing poorly with ron the first half of the season....not likely it would appear...

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

I'm sure the Pacers won't stop making a trade because they're afraid the fanbase will cry foul. The only way I'd see that happening is if they would have traded Reggie. No other player comes within miles of Reggie in this scenario (upsetting people over a trade of him).

They'll do whatever they feel is best, whenever they can.

i dont think the pacers are so naive as to think they dont have an attendance issue....

given this teams ability to draw, they barely sold out the playoff games.....you now are faced with losing the face of the franchise who undoubtedly put a fair number of butts in the seats....

u couple this with the fact that artest has become a martyr and a soft spot for many fans and you must at least consider the possibility that trading him would only weaken an already fragile mindset of a certain percentage of the fanbase.....while i believe that the majority of the fanbase trusts larry and donnie, i do believe they identify more with ron versus the image that many have of jermaine....ron is perceived by many to bring that blue collar mentality while many, it seems, view jermaine as a prima donna....

bottom line is, u need to have someone the fans identify and develop a bond with....the most likely person for that role right now, right or wrong, is ron...which again creates a bit of a dilemma for them and only one more thing that makes his being traded so difficult and touchy...

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

i dont think the pacers are so naive as to think they dont have an attendance issue....

given this teams ability to draw, they barely sold out the playoff games.....you now are faced with losing the face of the franchise who undoubtedly put a fair number of butts in the seats....

u couple this with the fact that artest has become a martyr and a soft spot for many fans and you must at least consider the possibility that trading him would only weaken an already fragile mindset of a certain percentage of the fanbase.....while i believe that the majority of the fanbase trusts larry and donnie, i do believe they identify more with ron versus the image that many have of jermaine....ron is perceived by many to bring that blue collar mentality while many, it seems, view jermaine as a prima donna....

bottom line is, u need to have someone the fans identify and develop a bond with....the most likely person for that role right now, right or wrong, is ron...which again creates a bit of a dilemma for them and only one more thing that makes his being traded so difficult and touchy...

I don't think fans identify with Ron Artest. No one would say that fans identify with Dennis Rodman, Mike Tyson, or other elaborate stars who are known more for how crazy they have been than for how great of a player/boxer they are. Rodman was a great rebounder, Artest is a great defender, and Tyson was a great boxer, but never does a media personnel ever mention any of these guys w/o mentioning something discouraging.

Artest may put fans in seats, but I hypothesize that it's not as many season ticket holders and more individual ticket buyers. It is important to sell out an arena to present a level of scarcity, but never would a team put Artest as the face of it no matter how much fans relate to him. Just because a team should have a person fit that role does not mean that there is a player to fit that role. Jermaine had a poor year for publicity, but it was only a year ago when he was voted as one of the best for interviews by the media. He can relate to fans and he's a great basketball player. A few solid months of great basketball and keeping his nose clean presents a better candidate for this role than a few good months for Ron Artest.

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

I don't think fans identify with Ron Artest. No one would say that fans identify with Dennis Rodman, Mike Tyson, or other elaborate stars who are known more for how crazy they have been than for how great of a player/boxer they are. Rodman was a great rebounder, Artest is a great defender, and Tyson was a great boxer, but never does a media personnel ever mention any of these guys w/o mentioning something discouraging.

Artest may put fans in seats, but I hypothesize that it's not as many season ticket holders and more individual ticket buyers. It is important to sell out an arena to present a level of scarcity, but never would a team put Artest as the face of it no matter how much fans relate to him. Just because a team should have a person fit that role does not mean that there is a player to fit that role. Jermaine had a poor year for publicity, but it was only a year ago when he was voted as one of the best for interviews by the media. He can relate to fans and he's a great basketball player. A few solid months of great basketball and keeping his nose clean presents a better candidate for this role than a few good months for Ron Artest.

this all sounds good in theory....but im not so sure it plays out that way....

the situation with jermaine isnt so simple....he signed a 126 million dollar contract....todays fans have a bit of a problem with that....while him playing well might help, hes hardly gonna be someone they identify with.....u factor in his expressive nature on the court and many fans find it very easy to resent jo.....many will see him as a prima donna...contract, the hootin and hollerin after a dunk, its just avoidable....while i personally dont share to much of that attitude, this is simply life in the nba these days...and why the nba has a problem, in general, with its fan base....

like it or not, because of the effort that ron brings every nite, plus him not being paid exhorbitantly, and the fans being oblivious to alot of his locker room problems coupled with his martrydom from last year will make him one that todays fan can find it pretty easy to gravitate to....and many will be watching what he does from here....many will want to see if he screws up again....and when he doesnt, then he will become even more endeared to a big percentage of the fan base...fans love guys who put forth the kind of effort that ron does every game.....if these guys are gonna make so much money, the majority of fans want to see the effort that says the athlete cares....they get that from ron....so while they might not like everything he does, they will find it much easier to forgive him when he brings the effort every nite.

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

this all sounds good in theory....but im not so sure it plays out that way....

the situation with jermaine isnt so simple....he signed a 126 million dollar contract....todays fans have a bit of a problem with that....while him playing well might help, hes hardly gonna be someone they identify with.....u factor in his expressive nature on the court and many fans find it very easy to resent jo.....many will see him as a prima donna...contract, the hootin and hollerin after a dunk, its just avoidable....while i personally dont share to much of that attitude, this is simply life in the nba these days...and why the nba has a problem, in general, with its fan base....

like it or not, because of the effort that ron brings every nite, plus him not being paid exhorbitantly, and the fans being oblivious to alot of his locker room problems coupled with his martrydom from last year will make him one that todays fan can find it pretty easy to gravitate to....and many will be watching what he does from here....many will want to see if he screws up again....and when he doesnt, then he will become even more endeared to a big percentage of the fan base...fans love guys who put forth the kind of effort that ron does every game.....if these guys are gonna make so much money, the majority of fans want to see the effort that says the athlete cares....they get that from ron....so while they might not like everything he does, they will find it much easier to forgive him when he brings the effort every nite.

Jermaine O'Neal may "hoot and holler" after a big dunk, but Artest acts in a very similar manner. During the game against the Heat back in 2002-2003 season, he flexed in front of Pat Riley and the rest of the Heat bench. He has thrown up his share of middle fingers, and has obviously gotten violent in a number of occasions--- including when he was on the Bulls playing the Pacers in Indiana. He doesn't complain to the refs as much as Jermaine does, but I think his absence this year made many people, including you, Foretaz, forget some of Ron's negative traits.

"Todays fans" don't like big contracts, but they also didn't like them 10 years ago. Big contracts are nothing new. It's only a hypothetical, but if Jermaine was a free agent this summer, every team that could would offer him max dollars, including the Pacers. He's a Top 25 talent that has earned his money and will continue to do so. It may be $126 MM, but (1) it would have never happened if Isiah was fired a week later and (2) I don't regret signing him. This isn't a Bender or Croshere deal... Jermaine is the best PF in the East, and hasn't necessarily reached his prime, depending on how injuries play out through his career.

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

Jermaine O'Neal may "hoot and holler" after a big dunk, but Artest acts in a very similar manner. During the game against the Heat back in 2002-2003 season, he flexed in front of Pat Riley and the rest of the Heat bench. He has thrown up his share of middle fingers, and has obviously gotten violent in a number of occasions--- including when he was on the Bulls playing the Pacers in Indiana. He doesn't complain to the refs as much as Jermaine does, but I think his absence this year made many people, including you, Foretaz, forget some of Ron's negative traits.

"Todays fans" don't like big contracts, but they also didn't like them 10 years ago. Big contracts are nothing new. It's only a hypothetical, but if Jermaine was a free agent this summer, every team that could would offer him max dollars, including the Pacers. He's a Top 25 talent that has earned his money and will continue to do so. It may be $126 MM, but (1) it would have never happened if Isiah was fired a week later and (2) I don't regret signing him. This isn't a Bender or Croshere deal... Jermaine is the best PF in the East, and hasn't necessarily reached his prime, depending on how injuries play out through his career.

ummm....naaaa....i havent forgotten any of artests antics....

and why you felt compelled to go on the jo rant im not really sure...if u want to do that, its fine...to do it to me, might be a bit silly...as im a jo supporter....

i only make the case that he would appear to have a fair amount of detractors and most importantly will probably struggle to be a fan favorite for the aforementioned reasons....

as ive clearly said before theres only two people id trade jo for....duncan and kg....

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

and why you felt compelled to go on the jo rant im not really sure...if u want to do that, its fine...to do it to me, might be a bit silly...as im a jo supporter....

i only make the case that he would appear to have a fair amount of detractors and most importantly will probably struggle to be a fan favorite for the aforementioned reasons....

as ive clearly said before theres only two people id trade jo for....duncan and kg....

so i think u might be preaching to the choir....

You may be a JO supporter and I may be preaching to the choir, but I was only stating why I Ron Artest is not this "role" that you have mentioned. This does not mean JO is. However, if anyone on the team had the chance to be, then it would be Jermaine and not Artest. Pointing to an audience's interest in the bazaar Artest does not mean they relate to him. Most of us have gotten upset and let our temper get us--- very few of us have actually punched out (undeserving) people at the same time. I am not attempting to rehash old news, and I also know that you have a great idea of who Artest is, but for you to attempt to claim that the "blue collar" fan really relates to Ron, I'll have to disagree.

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

You may be a JO supporter and I may be preaching to the choir, but I was only stating why I Ron Artest is not this "role" that you have mentioned. This does not mean JO is. However, if anyone on the team had the chance to be, then it would be Jermaine and not Artest. Pointing to an audience's interest in the bazaar Artest does not mean they relate to him. Most of us have gotten upset and let our temper get us--- very few of us have actually punched out (undeserving) people at the same time. I am not attempting to rehash old news, and I also know that you have a great idea of who Artest is, but for you to attempt to claim that the "blue collar" fan really relates to Ron, I'll have to disagree.

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

The problem was he punched the wrong fan. The one who raised his fist to Ron was not the fat one that got slammed it was the one with the Baseball cap on.

This guy was trying to get between & stop the fighting when he fell down & was first pummled by A.J. then got the Lou Chang fist of death from J.O.

Going onto the court in & of itself is not an act that deserves a beating. Self defense does not mean striking a man who is on either (depending on who you listen to) his knees or hands & knees.

IT IS NOT SELF DEFENSE!!!!!

while im not saying jo was wrong to hit that guy...because as most would say...when that guy came on the floor under those circumstances all bets are off....however the most horrific sight for me that night was indeed jos punch....

nevertheless....ron coldcocked the guy that kinda took the stance on the floor....

he kinda punched john greene as well after he had thrown a beer on him and then sucker punched him from behind....

if the incinuation was ron punched out an undeserving fan and jo didnt....i didnt see that...

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

Just as Ron was attacked for going into the crowd and evading people space, I see the same thing being true of JO hitting the fan.

Once a fan is on the court, invading a players "private space", it is self defense.

How was JO to know if that fan had a knife, or even worse a gun on him.

Foretaz, the same hold true for Artest. I dont think you will find one person who agrees he had the right to go into the crowd, so Ill stop teh discussion at that..

I've asked this over & over & nobody will ever answer it.

How far can you go using your definition of self defense? If we assume that going onto the floor is an offense that allows physical harm to be done to someone then how much can be done?

One punch? Two? Pummel them until they are unconscious? At what point in time is enough enough when it comes to self defense when you are dealing with a person who is in no position to do any physical harm?

Now the above is giving you the self defense because they were on the floor mode.

Let me ask you this, shouldn't every fan in the Palace that night then had a free shot at any Pacer that went into their private space? Instead of arresting Ben Wallaces brother shouldn't he be receiving some form of medal from the Auburn Hills Police department for coming to the aid of his fellow fan?

Of course not.

The law does not allow you to claim self defense in a public area unless you are under the direct threat of violence.

In other words if this guy walked into J.O.'s house that would be one thing, but to be on the floor & literally be on the floor & be hit is something else.

Let me ask another stupid question while I'm at it. If it truely was self defense as you claim would J.O. have been in the right had his punch killed the guy? No, seriously, what if he hit him so hard he lapsed into a coma & died? Would this have been the right thing?

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

Let me ask another stupid question while I'm at it. If it truely was self defense as you claim would J.O. have been in the right had his punch killed the guy? No, seriously, what if he hit him so hard he lapsed into a coma & died? Would this have been the right thing?

Goofy as it may sound, that's probably a legitimate question considering JO's size, condition, and training.

I guess JO is just like Mike Tyson!

"If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy

Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

First of all Peck, I apologize. I posted a thread here , but I figured most people donít visit that forum. Long story short between starting my own business and work, sometimes I get so far behind I misses a lot of threads. Its a really a shame, cause I would have enjoyed that debate. I have dreams of one day going to law school, even though I doubt that ever happens.

First off, good luck with the new business. It's hard work to own your own but it also has the biggest rewards as well.

But back to the topic at hand.

The truth of that matter is its a judgement call. I didnít call it self defense at first, and to be honest I still think its a stretch. If JO had been attacked then I would see it, but I can understand his actions seeing as he could have felt threatened by a person coming onto "his playing grounds"

I have no clue if that made sense. If not, ask me and Ill try to elaborate...

I guess if you don't mind I would like to have you elaborate. I don't understand exactly what you are trying to say with this because judgement call is way to vague & allows way to much leeway one way or the other. But on a side note how could J.O. feel threatened by somone who was on thier knees? Now I would understand if you said he was coming to the defense of Ron (I wouldn't buy it because if you watch the video J.O. was looking to get into it with someone) but I just won't buy he felt threatened himself.

Good question. My answer is until they are no longer a threat. I have no clue what the "legal" answer is.

The guy was on his knees or at the very least squating over trying to get up, was he a danger to anyone in that position? If he was then does he only become no longer a threat when he is unconsicouss?

While this wont be popular, I say yes. If I feel threatened (like a player attacking a fan) then yes, I say that you can "defend" yourself from that player.

As for Wallace's brother, he started his attacking after everything had calmed down.

How about if a player is attacking someone near you? Are you allowed to defend them like we are saying J.O. did with Ron?

As to Wallace's brother, maybe I'm remembering wrong but didn't he hit Fred on the back of the head while all of this was going on in the stands?

You are correct, a very stupid question. It doesnít even warrant a answer.

Well, since I called it a stupid question I guess I have not right to question why you think it is. But still I have to ask, why you won't answer it?

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13