YES. Without a doubt. Hanyu is an amazing jumper but he doesn't have the presentation and musicality that Patrick does. Will he get it? Who knows. I agree with whoever said throwing quads at such an early age - and he isn't a very big man - can cause irreparable damage. For me, it takes ALOT more than quads to make a skater great!

Hanyu at 18 could likely beat Chan at 18. At 18 Chan had no quads, his Triple Axle was not where it should be etc etc. His flow and edges were still pretty good but not as well honed as they are now.
But the question asked was could a 21/22 year Chan beat a 17/18 year old Hanyu or at any rate that is what I thought the writer was asking.

YES. Without a doubt. Hanyu is an amazing jumper but he doesn't have the presentation and musicality that Patrick does.

Presentation I might agree with, to a certain extent - Hanyu doesn't have Patrick's skating skills, and he isn't as refined, not yet. But as a musician, what actually impressed me the first time I saw Hanyu skate, last year, was his musicality. Not the quads, or actually his jumpsh at all, besides how they were timed with the music, along with the rest of his elements. That's a talent, and he can still get better than he is now, but it's inborn. As talented as Patrick is, I can't really say the same about him. He has other qualities.
Besides that, saying that Hanyu is just jumps is rather offensive. He's an artist, as much as Patrick is one too. The difference is in their respective experience in expressing themselves. He needs time to grow, it's raw, but it's there and it's evident. Is artistry even quantifiable? If it is or not to our tastes - that's for each of us to say.

Onto the subject of the topic: right now, if they both skate clean Patrick's PCs would probably be so high that the difference in TES wouldn't matter. But if Hanyu catches up even a little bit on the second mark, by next year the results could be different.

plushyfan, were you arguing that Hanyu at 18 could beat Chan at 18? Because that is definitely true, imo.

Anyway, we should hope we're so lucky to see a competition wherein these two talents skate their absolute best.

Originally Posted by emdee

Hanyu at 18 could likely beat Chan at 18. At 18 Chan had no quads, his Triple Axle was not where it should be etc etc. His flow and edges were still pretty good but not as well honed as they are now.
But the question asked was could a 21/22 year Chan beat a 17/18 year old Hanyu or at any rate that is what I thought the writer was asking.

Oh, it is absolutely true. Age-wise, for Yuzuru this season is the equivalent of Chan's 2008-9 season, as they both turn(ed) 18 in December; career-wise, it's equivalent to 2009-10, because Yuzuru moved up to senior earlier. Entering his age 18 season, Chan had never scored more than 215 points, did not have a quad, had a very inconsistent 3A and was not as good a spinner. He did have an edge on skating skills, but his base value was quite low compared to what Hanyu is doing and I'd argue that the latter has a better feel for music and performance compared to Chan at the same age. Entering this season, Hanyu's PB was 251 (I think maybe 10 points of the difference can be attributed to scoring inflation in the past few years), he had a consistent 3A and 4T with another quad on the way, and was already a 4CC and World medalist. He is now a world record holder as well - an achievement that eluded Chan until later on in his career. All this despite not being his country's no. 1. I'm hesitant to compare their third senior season as Chan was dealing with the aftereffects of an injury for a large part of it. But regardless, Yuzuru is an unusually precocious skater and a very fast-rising one - and although Chan himself is a special talent and had his breakthrough as a teen, he didn't develop quite so rapidly. But who knows, maybe Nathan Chen will outstrip them both soon enough.

As for Hanyu now vs. Chan now (and in the future), I stand by what I wrote in my previous post.

I didn't say Hanyu was just a jumper. I said he was an amazing jumper. And he does interpret music alot better than some of his Japanese contemporaries - but IMO he is not in Patrick's league yet. If he continues to skate and is injury free I could see where he would continue to develop and mature. Or maybe what it comes down to is a person's personal preference for skating style. I like Patrick's and I do think he has a natural sense of music interpretation but when he was 18 he was more focussed on developing his jumps. It seems to me that many male skaters get their jumps and spins down first. You see many young men with incredible jumping ability. I was amazed at US Nats this year at some of the junior and novice men skaters and what they were able to do. BUT....they didn't have the maturity in their presentation yet. Yes they could land a jump on the beat of the music and could interpret choreography. But for me, watching any figure skater, I dont' want to separate the jumps and the "tricks" from the music. I want it to be as one with neither standing out over the other. Just my preference. But I also think it's kind of pointless to imagine what Patrick and Hanyu would have done if they were the same age at the same time. Skating has advanced immeasurably over the past 3-4 years. Again, JMO. It makes for a somewhat fun conversation but it doesn't prove anything. They are who they are - now!

Actually, Buttercup I think Chan's musicality was very good in the earlier years - 4 seasons, rachmaninoff, Tango for eg. Once the elements were added choc en bloc he had to sacrifice it and I think that is why he has made a conscious effort to address this element this year.

Hanyu is exceptional and still developing but he is not there yet on pcs but one day maybe. TES he can beat anyone BUT whereas Chan has skated some big performances Hanyu and others have not completed all their quads other than tak. BAse donconsisency and all Tak and Chan are the best. Hanyu maybve but he hasnèt esablished himself yet. And he is in that scarey bronze medal position (LOL) somehow that bronze medallist tends to be vulnerable (just a coincidence but the bronze medalist is often a one hit wonder - Lepisto, the Israeli dance team, German dance team, Brian Pockar, Rudi Galindo, Shubtanis, Bobek - just a conicdence but that bronze spot you just never know what will happen the next year Give Hanyu some time.

I also think Patrick is superior on the PCS side. However, Hanyu is close and I like that Patrick does have to skate his BEST to beat Hanyu at HIS best. Chan hasn't really had a close competitor to push him and now we'll have an opportunity to see how mentally tough both men can be. I think Dai should be in the picture but he gets no love from the judges.

YES. Without a doubt. Hanyu is an amazing jumper but he doesn't have the presentation and musicality that Patrick does. Will he get it? Who knows. I agree with whoever said throwing quads at such an early age - and he isn't a very big man - can cause irreparable damage. For me, it takes ALOT more than quads to make a skater great!

Agreed.

Both skaters seem to undergoing fantastic and focused transitions, and what happens this year as against each other might not really matter. The real showdown will be at Sochi, and it will be interesting (if Chan and Hanyu are both at the top of their game on the days that they skate) whether Hanyu will have matured enough to topple Chan. (Chan will have to skate his best to beat Hanyu, yes. And Hanyu will have to rise to the occasion as well.)

Although Chan came in second and was kind of wonky at Windsor, one could see how he was getting back with his artistry. The coaching change seems to bringing out Chan to make him watchable by people other than just skating fans. When he skated really well (so he missed a couple of triples, converting them into doubles, but so what) in Russia, you could see he was on his way back to top form. It was very very smooth in skating skills and musicality, and it was a great piece of choreography that he was riding rather than chasing.

Hanyu is working on a long program that he seems to be fighting to still master rather than having a program that is going to ride him to the top. Still, it is a program that is going to make him stronger. It will make him better. (He needs a long program with more omph next year though. He has a musicality that is amazing, but he cannot seem to call on it consistently and it seems not yet there for him as Chan's is for Chan. In skating skills and musicality, he does not have Chan's smoothness, and it might be that he won't. His style is more brash and energetic. Rough not smooth. Different and it can be just as good in its own way. But even still, it still needs to develop in Hanyu's own way so that it where Chan's is in Chan's way. He shouldn't rush. It will come in its time and if he properly paces himself in his training, it will be here a long time.

Let's just hope that both skaters do skate their best against each other when they meet, and it may be the greatest skate-off of our lifetime.

Well, for Hanyu to compete in London Worlds against Patrick Chan, Hanyu has to actually earn a spot on the Japanese team first. There are 5 very strong Japanese men, each of them can make a case for a spot on the team. If Hanyu skates his FS like he did in SA, there is a very real chance he won't make it to the podium at the Japanese Nationals. If so, can he legitimately take the place of another Japanese man who finished higher at their Nationals? Say, Machida skated lights out and finished 2nd, like how he defeated Takahashi recently, while Kozuka won the title. Do you shaft whoever finished 3rd in favor of Hanyu? What if that person happens to be Dai? Would it be more legitimate if that person were Oda?