The above 2 questions are my major problem with the healthcare bill. Well the obvious 3rd question needs to be added ...

3: Has our government done anything in the last 20-30 years that truly benefits the people over special interests?

I vote no to the healthcare bill. Come up with a government option for those who cannot afford care and/or who are not employed and/or to sell to those that need it. Tax us a bit more to pay for it and leave private insurance options alone.

Show me 1 congressman of women who has consistently voted in favor of the people on every vote and I will reconsider my healthcare position. will the next President want the bill tweaked?

How about Congress ... will they change it. Let's face it that's how politicians think ... they ask for a whole loaf ... they take 3/5's of a loaf. they wait a few years and ask for the whole loaf again ... now they got 4/5's. Wait a few more years and keep doing this as they approach 99.999% of the loaf.

Progress doesn't work from the top down. If you look at every single positive change that's occured in this country over the past 100 years, it's been the result of a groundswell movement by people, not governing officials. Americans are fat, lazy and stupid and want saviors to do everything for them, then get selectively outraged when their puppet masters need them too. Until we become less apathetic and more educated, you can forget about progress happening the way it has in the past.

Progress doesn't work from the top down. If you look at every single positive change that's occured in this country over the past 100 years, it's been the result of a groundswell movement by people, not governing officials. Americans are fat, lazy and stupid and want saviors to do everything for them, then get selectively outraged when their puppet masters need them too. Until we become less apathetic and more educated, you can forget about progress happening the way it has in the past.

Click to expand...

I believe Obama wants to see a good healthcare bill because I still believe he wants to be a great President. But I'm still not sold that he speaks his mind yet ... Congress is the dog and they tell him when to wag so the tail makes the dog cuter.

I believe Obama wants to see a good healthcare bill because I still believe he wants to be a great President. But I'm still not sold that he speaks his mind yet ... Congress is the dog and they tell him when to wag so the tail makes the dog cuter.

Click to expand...

I disagree ... Obama is SPEAKING his mind by doing, something previous Presidents did not do. He will be vocal when he needs to be. You don't have to speak up to get the job done, although he's doing better than the previous dumbo!

Obama's campaign was all about tackling the issues no one else cared to touch like healthcare, energy, social security, jobs, economy (huge), etc.

In less than 8 months we have more debate, discussion and movement in these areas than I've seen in my 50+ years on this Earth.

He's 'no nonsense', he CAN multi0-task and he's very much a FORWARD THINKER. Wow, we actually have a Prez who can THINK!!!

We need HEALTHCARE REFORM and we need to be a country who can give basic healthcare needs to those without! If you lose your job (COBRA IS NOT AN OPTION - TOO EXPENSIVE) - you've got basic coverage, if you cannot afford coverage at your job ... you can get through a government program. Give Americans basic heathcare needs.

HEALTHCARE IS EXPENSIVE AND NOT EVERY0NE MAKES the kind of money you need to cover yourself at work. 40 million Americans are not being serviced and that's a disgrace.

The greatest nation in the world needs to STEP TO THE PLATE and put aside these vocal, devisive detractors who IMO are not knowledgeable about healthcare or the current situation in this country - LEARN! FEAR by the 'right wingers' is deteriorating their minds ... we can blame the previous Prez for this fear ....!!!

If things don't get better, I think the next President will be Mitt Romney.

.

Click to expand...

I guess you haven't noticed the Stock Market is now about 9,000 ... Obama took over and it was down to 6,000.

Mitt Romney is just another 'right winger' with no brains to lead a country in the 21st Century. '

There's a reason why the GOP got wasted in the last election ... NO GOOD IDEAS, NO FORWARD THINKING AND OLD WHITE MEN LIVING TO TALK ABOUT THE REAGAN YEARS. We're are not living in the 80's anymore! Even their new blood is OLD.

Talk about stagnation ... the GOP got killed at the polls last November all the way around. The lost governerships, senate seats, congressional seats and the Presidency ... there's a good reason for that - they are living in the past and the past is history!

Obama took over the previoius Admin's mess and Bush had 8 years to take this country down the wrong path. That man will go down in history as the worst Prez in modern times - just disgraceful.

Bush was handed filet mignon, Obama was handed nothing to build upon! He just HAS TO REBUILD THE NATION.

If things don't get better, I think the next President will be Mitt Romney.
.

Click to expand...

Contended all along that this year Obama is not all that concerned about the polls, next year he will be more focused on that for the midterms... seems that he is pushing the volatile agenda this year.. what is happening now is unique to the election cycle...

Who will be his successor... not sure, do not see Romney, Gingrich or Palin.. no idea on the Dem side...

The above 2 questions are my major problem with the healthcare bill. Well the obvious 3rd question needs to be added ...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why those questions matter, since you can't predict the future one way or another. Also, I think one of the biggest mistakes conservatives make is to constantly try to set the bar in the past rather than in the present. For instance, rather than fighting for an immigration amnesty that requires illegals to learn English, learn American history, and attend civics classes, they want to kick the illegals out. So, what they'll ultimately end up with is a less educated, less "American," more multi-cultural group of immigrants, since it's very unlikely we'll actually kick all the illegals out. There's little reason to believe that by waiting on the healthcare issue, you'll get one that more to your liking later on, especially since you seem to have feelings for the insurance industry. If we don't get healthcare now, the next attempt, given that conservatism is facing demographic obstacles, may be more liberal.

IcyPatriot said:

3: Has our government done anything in the last 20-30 years that truly benefits the people over special interests?

Click to expand...

What do you mean by special interests?

IcyPatriot said:

I vote no to the healthcare bill. Come up with a government option for those who cannot afford care and/or who are not employed and/or to sell to those that need it. Tax us a bit more to pay for it and leave private insurance options alone.

Click to expand...

That's basically the proposal before Congress.

IcyPatriot said:

Show me 1 congressman of women who has consistently voted in favor of the people on every vote and I will reconsider my healthcare position. will the next President want the bill tweaked?

Click to expand...

That's highly subjective, but there are a number of people like Maxine Waters and Dennis Kucinich who seem to always vote in favor of the people, though you may not agree with their beliefs.

IcyPatriot said:

How about Congress ... will they change it. Let's face it that's how politicians think ... they ask for a whole loaf ... they take 3/5's of a loaf. they wait a few years and ask for the whole loaf again ... now they got 4/5's. Wait a few more years and keep doing this as they approach 99.999% of the loaf.

Click to expand...

They might change things. Sometimes they change things for the better, sometimes for the worse, but then along comes another Congress and another President. Besides that, once things are implemented, fundamental change is less common. Tweaking is more typical.

The big thing that should concern all Americans is that Obama and his cohorts want this bill RUSHED thru, they don't want the people to know whats in the 'fine print'.

WHY.................

Click to expand...

It's been out there a month. How long does it take conservatives to read a bill? If you read 30 pages a day, you would have been done already. Not ony that, about half of it hardly needs to be read because it's legalese or tables of contents or topics that few people would disagree, such as whistleblower protection or standardization of administrative procedures.

But, here Harry. Get started now, and I guarantee you'll be done before the vote takes place if you read 30 or so pages a day. Have fun!

It's been out there a month. How long does it take conservatives to read a bill? If you read 30 pages a day, you would have been done already. Not ony that, about half of it hardly needs to be read because it's legalese or tables of contents or topics that few people would disagree, such as whistleblower protection or standardization of administrative procedures.

But, here Harry. Get started now, and I guarantee you'll be done before the vote takes place if you read 30 or so pages a day. Have fun!

Well then maybe all those old people are yelling at the town halls because They Did read the bill and they don't like what they read.
If this bill was as great as Obama says it is we should all be dancing in the streets like we did when Truman Nuked Japan.

It's been out there a month. How long does it take conservatives to read a bill? If you read 30 pages a day, you would have been done already. Not ony that, about half of it hardly needs to be read because it's legalese or tables of contents or topics that few people would disagree, such as whistleblower protection or standardization of administrative procedures.

But, here Harry. Get started now, and I guarantee you'll be done before the vote takes place if you read 30 or so pages a day. Have fun!

Always thought it was very naive to believe that they actually read the bill, that is why they have loyal staff who read the bill and then they get the Readers Digest version... it comes down to practicalities and understanding the legaleeze....

Do you mind explaining what relevance these have relative to this particular bill that is also not true for every single bill signed into law?

Click to expand...

While that may be so ... the topic of the moment is healthcare and it's my thread.

But I'll play the game ... because it is relevant.

Let's suppose it's still Bush and it's still the gop whith an advantage in Congress.
Would we then be discussing this topic along the same lines or would it be different?
Well ... it would be different and politics tells me the left might be angrier than the right.

I don't think the government has any business being a healthcare provider ... they have proven their ineptitude and their waffling nature. Once they have control this bill will change and it will have additions and subtractions based on who is in power ... I don't trust them ... why should I?

Do you mind explaining what relevance these have relative to this particular bill that is also not true for every single bill signed into law?

Click to expand...

These questions have proven very relevant now that the media is covering more aspects of the bill. If it's the people vs panels and backroom deal making in the future the people will lose. That goes regardless of which party is in power ... they are equally corrupt IMO.

Congress is to sly to craft a bill that needs to be made up along the way. IMO they are crafting it this way to suit their cronies, PAC's and not the people. I hope the blue dogs hold out until the bill becomes more specific - they will be rewarded with another term - the people will win out over special interests this time.

President will be Romney or someone else who will pass universal health care. It's happening in the next 8 years no matter what.

It doesn't matter what the mood of Congress is, they obey special interest groups and do whatever they want.

The government has long been run by special interest groups and lobbyists. This has been a sham democracy (like WWF fake wrestling) for a long time.

Click to expand...

The us vs them theme so loved by the media is intentional on their part. As long as they keep passions high the media will stay focused on the fight and/or sensational topic of the day. that leaves the backroom snakes in the grass to work under the radar to continually screw us. George Bush and this Congress may prove to be the best things to happen in this country in a very long time - they have hopefully pissed enough people off to effect real change ... well at least I hope so.

Leaving the insurance system alone for those who are fortunate enough to have good insurance is a non-starter too, unless you want premiums doubling every 5 years. That's what's at the bottom of the concern for the system as a system, rather than simply addressing the problem of the uninsured and the poor... which also need addressing, and which (look around you,) nobody but you and I are willing to pay taxes for.

The point is we pay north of 7K/head/annum for health care; nobody else in the world pays north of 5K. We as a nation get some of the worst care in the industrialized world for our money.

And by the way, a good deal of that has to do with those who have good insurance. People get dropped for being sick. People exhaust their "good" insurance. Claims get denied. Paperwork mazes are set up to disincentivize claims at the provider end, when the paperwork is more costly than filing the claim.

I do think the insurance industry needs tighter regulation. I do not think our current "system" (not) is working. I think it's time to join the developed world in this regard.