And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didnt He promise us that

it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didnt begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by its leaders and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he felt was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldnt go by the Word, but by feelings. God called that rebellion and even witchcraft,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all little gods, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the deliverance movement which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive shepherding movement?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into spiritual drunkenness and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul

At the end of Sauls life, he went into the occult. God wasnt speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb, to get an impartation of her anointing!

One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimees tomb in California. This Thursday Im on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb. Its close by Aimees in Forest Lawn Cemetery. Ive been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where shes buried is closed, they built walls around it. You cant get in without a key and Im one of the very few people who can get in. But Ill never forget when I saw Aimees tomb. Its incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. Asas incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, II, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimees tomb. I was shaking all over. Gods power came all over me. I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimees body. I know this may be shocking to you. And Im going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. Theyre gonna come with me. Youyouyou gonna feel the anointing at Aimees tomb. Its incredible. And Kathryns. Its amazing. Ive heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by Gods power. You say, What a crazy thing. Brother, theres things well never understand. Are you all hearing me?11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinns followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult Gods instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to honor the Generals of revival, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

Honoring them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a generals library for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally soaking the anointing by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but the delusion, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

It take s time to be healed, eh? And Jesus did how many delayed healings?

You think we who 'are growing in faith', we are instead to be instantly like Jesus. Nice. We are to strive to be like HIM, you demand others to be like HIM now. What about you? I see how you overlook.........

Mark 4:26 He also said, "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground.

Mark 4:27 Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how.

All by itself the soil produces grain--first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head.

Mark 4:29 As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come."

Just as the kingdom of God must grow, there is growth in our own personal lives also Acts 9:22, Eph 4:15, 2 Th 1:3, 1Peter 2:2, and 2Peter 3:18.

It is easy to become so impatient waiting for the visible fruit that we neglect our roots(Mark 4:16). When things get tough, only the Word that has personal roots in our hearts will bear fruit.

went to a faith healer. She had epilepsy and diabetes. He prayed for her and told her she was healed. He believed it. She believed it. She believed it enough that she went OFF her medication, BELIEVING that she had been and was healed. She died from her UNHEALED after all, conditions.

You think maybe she believed man? You have no idea who and in what she believed. Let's be honest here.

Some Christians get very excited over the promises of God's Word but make the mistake of not getting firmly established in those truths before they "jump out on a limb" with them. This kind of people withers away when the heat is on. We can't live off of someone else's commitment to the Word; we must have root in ourselves (Mark 4:17)

And just how many people that Jesus healed were well grounded in the word, IOW, knew who Jesus was?

You’re saying that all she needed was faith. Well, she showed it. She obviously had enough faith that God could and did heal her to go off her medications. Now that’s not good enough? She must have been deficient in her faith somewhere else?

That is the PERFECT example of what I’ve been talking about. She didn’t have enough faith. It was in the wrong person. She wasn’t grounded in the word enough. It’s her fault she wasn’t healed.

Since no charismatic is going to blame God for not healing her, then the blame obviously falls on her, and everyone analyzes where she went wrong based on the undesirable results. You don’t know her heart either. You CAN’T make those judgments about her without taking the role of judge and jury.

Well, if she’d just have done it *right* (the charismatic way) then OF COURSE she would have been healed. Spiritual snobbery on display.

Excuses duly noted.

854
posted on 03/04/2012 7:08:13 AM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

Benny Hinn used that line often that its the persons faith that is weak

Perhaps that's where they got it from. IMO, no matter what - my faith in God can never be shaken. If anything is or can be shaken, it's not built with a good foundation and that's not God - it's me and I have no faith in myself. So what really is shaken? Faith in wrong thinking/wrong beliefs. And it's time to go back to The Truth and renew my mind.

If that person came with respect for Hinn and believed he was indeed of God being told that can shake their faith especially if they are a new Christian.

Wouldn't that put a red flag up even for a non Christian?

OK. So he was a Christian before he met her. First love, and all. Thanks for the info on him.

I do not have bitterness and resentment, but neither am I going to sit back and watch believers get pummeled over their lack of healing, therefore lack of faith, by those who think they have all the pat answers. Those days are gone for me. I've been on the receiving end of that judgment and condemnation and no more for me or for anyone else.

The sick person needs compassion and understanding. They're usually dealing with enough on their plate without being lectured at. They're already struggling enough with their faith and relationship with God in the midst of something often life threatening. The last thing they need is other bashing them over the head about their lack of spirituality and deficient faith.

Tell me, what takes more faith? Getting healed? Or not getting healed and still loving Jesus and following Him and praising Him, knowing that God is GOOD anyway, even if things don't go the way I want all the time and trusting Him to get me through it? When I am weak, then I am strong.

It's easy to believe in a Santa God.

There is too much judgment and condemnation from the ranks of the charismatics. The legalism within is appalling.

1 Thessalonians 5:14-22 14 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

856
posted on 03/04/2012 7:24:36 AM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

The hypocrisy of some - 'can't you see what you are doing' - while keeping score is amazing. Talk about 'according to their own experiences'. We don't see the same admonishment given earlier for their reasons. I was trying to 'open their eyes' but they will have none of it unless it favors their agenda. And make their own stories - with their 'yeah, buts... and we have no idea' earlier in the thread.

They have no idea why he was sick but had no problem running off and using that Scripture for their agenda. No meditation on their part and that's called rightly dividing the word for them.

"But when he asks, he must believe and NOT doubt because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does."

With their mindset they pray in DOUBT. "If it be your will" - demonstrating have no idea what the will of God is. "I am the Lord that heals you" and "By My Stripes you were healed" means nothing to them - they DOUBT in their heart the very words of God.

"From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it." Matt 11:12

Enjoy your day as the Joy of The Lord is your strength! We won't find it here but lots of strife and bitterness and insults!

I do not have bitterness and resentment, but neither am I going to sit back and watch believers get pummeled over their lack of healing, therefore lack of faith, by those who think they have all the pat answers. Those days are gone for me. I've been on the receiving end of that judgment and condemnation and no more for me or for anyone else.

Very good viewpoint.

860
posted on 03/04/2012 8:35:53 AM PST
by MarkBsnr
(I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)

neither am I going to sit back and watch believers get pummeled over their lack of healing, therefore lack of faith, by those who think they have all the pat answers.

Amen! They are not the answer....Christ Jesus is...and until they "focus" on the Christ rather than the Healers, and on Christ rather than the healing. Then it's most difficult to take these false events as anything other than what they are...a farce and deception to distract from the Gospel message of Christ in me the hope of Glory... and damaging to the Body of believers and those who might come.

So stand tall in Him ...in righteous judgement... on all which opposes the clear teachings of Christ.

You forgot the first part of that verse, as follows, and which clarifies in what context doubt is being used...important to consider....

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. .....PERSEVERANCE MUST FINISH ITS WORK..... so that .....you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything...... If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given him...... But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does .....(James 1:1-8).

Perseverance is the ability to keep right on going with joy in our hearts despite apparent setbacks and disappointments, illnesses, hardships etc. and this seems to be a quality that the Lord values almost beyond all else.

There is another passage in the Bible that teaches exactly this same thing. .....in Romans 5...... Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.... Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance .

Notice the same sequence Sufferings joy perseverance .

Suffering produces perseverance;.. perseverance,.. character;.. and character,.. hope... And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

From our perspective, stress and strain and problems and pain are those things that mar our lives....... but from Gods perspective, those are the things that develop our faith ....and our perseverance and make us people of maturity..... James said: Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

The idea here is, that the Messiah would be scourged; and that it would be by that scourging that health would be imparted.... 'to our souls'.

'Sin' is a disease belonging to all men, a natural, hereditary, nauseous, and incurable one, ...but by the blood of Christ; forgiving sin is 'a healing of this disease'; and this is to be had in no other way than through the stripes and wounds,.. the blood and sacrifice,.. of the Son of God.

With their mindset they pray in DOUBT. "If it be your will" - demonstrating have no idea what the will of God is. "I am the Lord that heals you" and "By My Stripes you were healed" means nothing to them - they DOUBT in their heart the very words of God.

"By My Stripes you were healed" Really? That's a quote from Scripture? Chapter and verse please?

And while healing comes through His stripes, the verse does NOT say that everyone will be healed on demand.

It just states that the mechanism for healing is through the stripes so that if we're healed, we know how it came about.

865
posted on 03/04/2012 11:04:31 AM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

We are trying to warn you of what we see as a danger to you that you seem to be unaware of. We are posting Scripture to substantiate ourselves and get cartoons in return.

You want to see that as rock throwing and lacking in compassion and understanding, well, nobody can stop you. However, as a psychologist, you ought to be able to see the projecting that we see you engaging in.

Disagreeing with you does not make a martyr out of you. Warning you of danger we see to you does not make a martyr out of you. That label isn’t wearing well on you. Let it go.

869
posted on 03/04/2012 3:51:53 PM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

....”Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” ...Exodus 4:11

God made the disabled and infirm..... Babies are born every day with defects. ....Many children grow up with congenital deformities. ....Some people have illnesses that last for years..... While it is unexplainable according to our human logic, it is all part of God’s sovereign, loving plan.

Some sicknesses are from Satan......

God may allow Satan to inflict illness for His own sovereign reasons..... The classic example is Job... Job chapter 1 also Luke 13:11-13

Some sickness is God’s chastisement for sin. .....

....”Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Thy word” .....Ps. 119:67.. also Numbers 12.. Deut. 28:20-22... 2 Kings 5

Other examples:

God tormenting the Egyptians with skin boils... Ex. 9:8-12

Inflicting King Jeroboam with leprosy....2 Kings 15:5

Striking Saul with blindness ....Acts 9:1-19

The Bible also tells us plainly that God disciplines the Church through sickness, hardship, and even death... 1 Cor. 11:28-30... Heb. 12:7... Acts 5:1-11 ......

That we should joyfully accept trials “of many kinds” because God uses them to make us mature James 1:2-4... Psalm 119:71,75. .......

Clearly God allows and even causes sickness for His own sovereign purposes.

Nothing like having health problems to get our attention focused on God.

I don’t know of really any people who sought God when they were fat, dumb, and happy. When things are going well in any area of our lives, we don’t see the need to seek God. We think we can handle it on our own.

Nothing like having health problems to cut the ego down to size. It can force us into a corner that forces us to look up instead of in, just like financial hardship. People only cry out to God when they’re having problems and there’s nothing so near and dear to our hearts as our health and prosperity.

872
posted on 03/04/2012 5:11:27 PM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

Amen. Quix, it is not our intention to make you angry, or throw rocks at you. Scripture is given to reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. It's the love of the Body of Christ that desires the love of the truth. Indifference to your posts would be a red flag warning that no one cares about the path you are going down. We warn with Scripture because it's a spiritual battle we're engaged in and the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God.

You are not supposed to be engaged in martyrdom. You are supposed to be engaged in being an ambassador for Christ. Preaching to the lost the reconciliation that God is offering man based purely on the finished work of Christ. That is our commission. When is the last time you laid aside your signs, wonders, miracles, speaking in tongues, etc. for the gospel of the grace of God?

As God is my witness, I have no animosity toward you. It is the deceit and deception that concerns me. You cannot be a watchman if you are focused on yourself.

874
posted on 03/04/2012 6:36:18 PM PST
by smvoice
(Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)

Certainly lots of RC’s did/do not perceive my caring toward them in lots of my posts.

Nevertheless, some of the posts on this thread hide the caring very well. LOL.

I certainly am consistent enough with my own values and style to be glad that anyone would pull out all the stops to try and rescue me from whatever spiritual ditch they saw me headed for.

HOWEVER, WHEN the motivations persistently COME ACROSS AS a decades long pique, anger, hostility, bitterness, resentment toward other religious/spiritual leaders over some chronic disappointments and exasperations—either toward God or the leaders . . . then I become more than a little concerned that the “caring” seems to be all contaminated to saturated with their own personal pique at folks and stuff quite divorced from, having little or nothing to do with me.

In terms of their purported BIBLICAL understanding. I’m shocked that such loved ones could so brazenly set aside so many plain verses and their obvious meanings. I realize that reading comprehension taught in our schools has gone to blazes in a handbasket. However, these loved ones likely learned to read before that rot set in.

It’s almost as though some horrific emotionality and deep seated angst has clouded intellectual and certainly spiritual understanding on some key points. I hate to see that in anyone—particularly loved cohorts of such long relationships. That grieves me a lot.

THANKFULLY, as you seem to well know; certainly Joya knows; Some of the men in our church know . . . THOSE OF US WITH SOLID SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES need not be troubled by folks with mere arguments.

GOD HIMSELF HAS REPEATEDLY MADE HIMSELF; HIS PURPOSES AND EVEN HIS METHODS VERY REAL to me . . . fitting quite well within my constructions on Biblical realities in these matters. How on earth could I go back on BIBLICALLY ACCURATE truths and life experience things that GOD HIMSELF HAS PROVEN so repeatedly in my life!!?!!

Like 'manna' in the old testament (foreshadow) kept them well and not one feeble one among them - even their shoes didn't wear out!! -

"My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are LIFE unto those that find them, and HEALTH to ALL their flesh. Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." Proverbs 4:20-23

God/His Word/His Spirit takes care of ALL our needs. Some are clueless on how to turn on the switch - so they never get the light. They keep calling the power company to turn it on. Too clueless to know they have the power - they just need to turn it on! THE POWER OF THE Holy Spirit inspired WORD of God!!

Are what you consider *qualified* teachers the only ones you can listen to?

Scripture is Scripture and anyone can use it to rebuke or correct. It takes no special teaching or training or *anointing* to rightly divide Scripture and point out error to some one using it because it is the truth.

It's based on the truthfulness of Scripture, not the qualifications of the person doing the correcting.

To think otherwise smacks of pride.

James 1:2-4 2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

894
posted on 03/05/2012 12:28:18 PM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

Meanwhile... It wasn't about teaching you or about you. It was about omitting the first critical portion of the verse you presented, which does clarifiy the correct context in which the verse entire should be understood............Rather than using just a portion of it to support a misrepresentation of the verse by omission of pertinent information, which therefore distorted the truth of what the text was actually saying.

As you know we are accountable to God when false representation of His word is given, especially when it would mis-lead other people into error or misunderstanding of God's truth as He gives it.

As for meditating on God's word. Some things are simply crystal clear without giving deep thought and contemplation to when we are seeking the truth for what it says, rather than trying to twist it to what we want it to say.... which would require some thought and manipulation of the context of the text to accomplish that purpose.

I dont have God in a tidy 'little' box about healing or anything else.

What is so called a new openness.... by allowing God to do whatever he wants... AKA dont put God in a box..... is really spiritual liberalism in disguise.

Certainly God has done many things in the past in unusual ways, often times not the way we would expect....But the issue is not can God do certain things but will He do them..... For He will never contradict His own word or principles but cooperate with it to accomplish His goals.

So we look for His ways that are conducive to His nature to be sure it is God. For if we attribute something to God ...when in fact it is not God,... we have put Him in a box!

I want to see you use your "right from THE SOURCE" so we can see you truly standing for your beliefs. Not just talking the talk.

Go to a thread where a FReeper is asking for prayer for someone. And that someone is a saved FReeper. And that someone, after prayers, and intercessions, and laying on of hands, and prayer cloths, and faith, faith, faith, dies. I want to see you go on that thread and tell those posters, and the family of that FReeper that this person evidently did not have enough faith. That this person WOULD have been healed "by His stripes" if only this person would have had MORE faith.

Do it. I'll give you a thread you can go to right now. Show us your faith in action. Show us your absolute confidence that with enough faith, God WILL heal those who believe, every time. It's time to shut our mouths with the power of your beliefs.

Ping me when you've done it. Or better yet, we'll all just wait and watch your unswerving "faith" in action.

898
posted on 03/05/2012 3:37:14 PM PST
by smvoice
(Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)

Im with you on that one smvoice. I have challenged others with those same challenges and not once have I been taken up on any of them. It seems most who vehemently support the healing ministry have a lack of faith when challenged to produce.

Im with you on that one smvoice. I have challenged others with those same challenges and not once have I been taken up on any of them. It seems most who vehemently support the healing ministry have a lack of faith when challenged to produce.

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