Hi everyone, firstly I will mention that I have only just finished a Crown of Swords, so no spoilers if you can help it please.

I am a big fan of the WoT books so far, but a fair few times I have noticed things I would suggest are plot holes, or at least that there are times when characters act irrationally and in a way just doesn't make sense compared to the alternatives, or don't do something that seems pretty obvious. Often it is just keeping a secret that there is no need to keep.

The ones that most bugged me most aren't on there though, here they are... Please can you guys let me know if you agree with me, or if you don't please explain if I am missing something here. Thanks in advance, sorry the post is so long.

I am so frustrated when I read the books because so many of Rand's problems and difficult fights are easily avoidable, as with Callandor he was more powerful than the most powerful forsaken (Ishmael). These fights he lucked his way through become easy with Callandor...

Rand vs Rahvin (Rand got lucky and needed Nyneave to help)
Lanfear tries to kill Aviendha and Elayne (Moraine saves him)
Rand gets captured by Elaida's Aes Sedai
Rand vs Sammael (Gets lucky because he is saved by the mysterious man)
There will probably be more as I continue reading...

Now I know Rand said he left Callandor to make sure the Tairens don't forget about him. I mean that's a fairly stupid reason to begin with, given how powerful it is and how many Aiel he left in Tear, so they couldn't rebel even if they wanted to. But later on he learns how to travel so he could just turn up whenever he wants to in Tear to remind them he is in charge, so there is literally no reason at all anymore to leave Callandor behind, just take a 2 minute trip and go and get it!

When I googled about the Male Sa'angreal I accidentally learned a spoiler that later on he actually destroys it because no one should have that power. (It seems really really stupid given that he needs to fight the all evil dark one who will corrupt the world and what not, but fair enough I suppose). But prior to this he just leaves it hidden and doesn't really mention that aspect of it at all, it is just ignored completely as if it doesn't exist. I don't see why he couldn't just keep it with him as a backup just in case he is getting beaten by one of the forsaken.

2) Why did Moiraine jump and push Lanfear and herself through the doorway when she was stood in plain view of her, why not just kill her with a shot of balefire (which we know she can use and isn't afraid of the consequences from when she kills Be'lal with it)??? This doesn't make any sense...

3) Sammaels battle with Rand is ridiculous. He doesn't want to destroy Illian so takes the fight elsewhere, fine, completely understandable. Going to Shadar Logoth, not so much, why would he take the fight somewhere that is obviously dangerous where there is something that could easily kill him, as it does. That is the most underwhelmed I have been so far in the books (which I love so far). Without the mysterious stranger saving Rand Sammael was winning, he is stronger than Rand, but he decided the best place to fight is one where some weird fog stuff can kill you, then when he isn't looking the fog just kills him and no one even sees it. This made for awful reading, I figured maybe I am wrong about this and Sammael isn't really dead and its part of a plan, so I looked it up and nope, he is dead...

4) The Forsaken at one point are mentioned as trying to go after angreal but none of them have managed it yet. Liandrin and her Black Ajah couldn't break into the angreal and sa'angreal store rooms either when they tried to break in. Why is any of this necessary?! They are Aes Sedai, plenty of them have checked out angreal as referenced plenty of times in the books, the Forsaken could just tell one of them to check one out and give it to them, maybe not a sa'angreal but definitely a regular angreal at least! I couldn't get over how dumb this was. On top of all this Mesaana is said to be hidden inside the White Tower at this point, so she should definitely have one. Also Padan Fain manages to break in to get his dagger and Alviarin shows up and makes sure no one else does, she is Black Ajah, so even if the others for some reason couldn't get an angreal Alviarin definitely can.

I am so frustrated when I read the books because so many of Rand's problems and difficult fights are easily avoidable, as with Callandor he was more powerful than the most powerful forsaken (Ishmael). These fights he lucked his way through become easy with Callandor...

I think I can help you with one. Its fear. Well lack of maturity too, IMO. Rand tried to use Callandor to resurrect the dead in TSH and from there on, he could not trust himself with either of the two Saangreal. Later he found out something else about Callandor in tPoD that made him lucky he was not using Callandor freely.

__________________May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

__________________Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

Whoops. It's been so long since I've had to think about spoilers for this series that it slipped my mind to even notice that. It looks like he hasn't been logged in since before my reply, so I'll delete my post, though in my defense, what exactly is he doing asking for comments on what he sees as a plot hole without us revealing why...

Admittedly, you would also need to edit to avoid him seeing my original post...

There are good reasons for this. Remember Rand trying to bring back the dead girl in the fourth book? That spooked him, and made him (rightly) question whether he was ready for such power.

For another, he constantly has to worry that he will go mad. How much worse for the world if he does and has a very powerful sa'angreal with him?

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When I googled about the Male Sa'angreal I accidentally learned a spoiler that later on he actually destroys it because no one should have that power.

If you really want to enjoy the books, avoid googling stuff about them. Also, quick reads of things people say on the internet can be deceptive. The bearded man plays more of a role than you think. Stay tuned.

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2) Why did Moiraine jump and push Lanfear and herself through the doorway when she was stood in plain view of her, why not just kill her with a shot of balefire (which we know she can use and isn't afraid of the consequences from when she kills Be'lal with it)??? This doesn't make any sense...

You do remember Moiraine's letter to Rand explaining that she had seen the event, correct? The simplest answer is she did what she did because she already knew how it played out.

More importantly, if Moiraine had embraced the Source any earlier, Lanfear would have sensed it and destroyed her. The element of surprise was crucial for Moiraine to succeed.

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3) Sammaels battle with Rand is ridiculous.

Not so much. This was about the only place Sammael could be sure some random channeler wouldn't disturb his wards. That way, he could be sure that if someone channeled, it would be Rand.

As for Mashadar... you give Sammael credit for thinking it was an actual threat to him. He almost certainly didn't know of all its dangers, as it is not a thing from his Age.

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4) The Forsaken at one point are mentioned as trying to go after angreal but none of them have managed it yet. Liandrin and her Black Ajah couldn't break into the angreal and sa'angreal store rooms either when they tried to break in. Why is any of this necessary?! They are Aes Sedai, plenty of them have checked out angreal as referenced plenty of times in the books, the Forsaken could just tell one of them to check one out and give it to them, maybe not a sa'angreal but definitely a regular angreal at least! I couldn't get over how dumb this was. On top of all this Mesaana is said to be hidden inside the White Tower at this point, so she should definitely have one. Also Padan Fain manages to break in to get his dagger and Alviarin shows up and makes sure no one else does, she is Black Ajah, so even if the others for some reason couldn't get an angreal Alviarin definitely can.

Simple. Imagine a sister signs out an angreal and doesn't return it. Soon enough, she will be asked to give it back, and questioned if she doesn't. That either reveals the Black Ajah, or Mesaana's alias in the Tower. Neither of which is a small price to pay for a measly angreal.

Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

Hi guys, first off thanks for the quick replies which I will reply to in a minute, but firstly a big thanks for this post which I saw before I read any of those spoilers so nothing has been ruined for me The quick responses and the actual care for the fact that I might see a spoiler shows that this looks to be a great community. I'll be sure to pass my eyes over that post every time I am on here so if no one can get around to editing the post it's okay, I know where it is.

Hi guys, first off thanks for the quick replies which I will reply to in a minute, but firstly a big thanks for this post which I saw before I read any of those spoilers so nothing has been ruined for me The quick responses and the actual care for the fact that I might see a spoiler shows that this looks to be a great community. I'll be sure to pass my eyes over that post every time I am on here so if no one can get around to editing the post it's okay, I know where it is.

I think I can help you with one. Its fear. Well lack of maturity too, IMO. Rand tried to use Callandor to resurrect the dead in TSH and from there on, he could not trust himself with either of the two Saangreal. Later he found out something else about Callandor in tPoD that made him lucky he was not using Callandor freely.

This makes sense actually, I thought it was probably something along those lines but I had completely forgotten about him trying to resurrect the girl, which seems to be an important explanation for the decision. Although it is still strange to me he wouldn't keep it as a last resort, I suppose this is an explanation I can accept and I think would probably be the one RJ would give. Thanks!

This makes sense actually, I thought it was probably something along those lines but I had completely forgotten about him trying to resurrect the girl, which seems to be an important explanation for the decision. Although it is still strange to me he wouldn't keep it as a last resort, I suppose this is an explanation I can accept and I think would probably be the one RJ would give. Thanks!

Really not a problem. As you said I shouldn't be going around posting on forums if I want to be 100% sure of avoiding spoilers. I did mention in my post where I was up to, and responses shouldn't need to reference things later in the books because all the actions I questioned are all decisions made by characters based on past information. It isn't like they decide what to do based on what will be coming 3 books from now.

Really not a problem. As you said I shouldn't be going around posting on forums if I want to be 100% sure of avoiding spoilers. I did mention in my post where I was up to, and responses shouldn't need to reference things later in the books because all the actions I questioned are all decisions made by characters based on past information. It isn't like they decide what to do based on what will be coming 3 books from now.

As greatwolf pointed out, Rand is afraid of both Callandor and the Choedan Kal. Before he leaves to challenge Rahvin we see him consider going back for it but deciding not to because of that fear. But he did bring the Little Fat Man to that fight, so he didn't go unaided into that duel.

Seriously. Kimon, can you please edit your post? Also, Davian, might help to remove what was quoted.

There are good reasons for this. Remember Rand trying to bring back the dead girl in the fourth book? That spooked him, and made him (rightly) question whether he was ready for such power.

For another, he constantly has to worry that he will go mad. How much worse for the world if he does and has a very powerful sa'angreal with him?

If you really want to enjoy the books, avoid googling stuff about them. Also, quick reads of things people say on the internet can be deceptive. The bearded man plays more of a role than you think. Stay tuned.

You do remember Moiraine's letter to Rand explaining that she had seen the event, correct? The simplest answer is she did what she did because she already knew how it played out.

More importantly, if Moiraine had embraced the Source any earlier, Lanfear would have sensed it and destroyed her. The element of surprise was crucial for Moiraine to succeed.

Not so much. This was about the only place Sammael could be sure some random channeler wouldn't disturb his wards. That way, he could be sure that if someone channeled, it would be Rand.

As for Mashadar... you give Sammael credit for thinking it was an actual threat to him. He almost certainly didn't know of all its dangers, as it is not a thing from his Age.

Simple. Imagine a sister signs out an angreal and doesn't return it. Soon enough, she will be asked to give it back, and questioned if she doesn't. That either reveals the Black Ajah, or Mesaana's alias in the Tower. Neither of which is a small price to pay for a measly angreal.

The first one is a good explanation I agree with

As for the Moiraine thing just because she saw the future doesn't mean she needs to do what she saw. This gives her a preview and she could be even more prepared for balefire. Maybe she saw this future because any attempt to channel will lead to her losing and this is the only way possible to win, so she does it, but I find this highly unlikely because you must bear in mind Lanfear has just shielded and is now hurting Elayne and Aviendha who are both very strong (maybe she tied these off). She is also trying to shield Rand using all of her remaining strength and he is just managing to hold her off. If she somehow did get distracted and react to Moiraine, Rand would be able to shield her or fight back in some non-lethal way. More importantly there are plenty of times in the books where someone can take hold of and then channel Saidar before the other person can react, it happens all the time. Maybe I am wrong here and you can provide some evidence from the books, but it seems very unlikely Lanfear can stop Moiraine firing off her balefire.

If Sammael wanted to be sure he wasn't near another channeler he could have chosen a spot in a random forest, a desert, one of the many other abandoned ruined cities, literally anywhere not in a city/town/village or by a main road. There is literally no need to choose Shadar Logoth to be sure.

The second point is an interesting one, but it can't explain it. The book clearly states that Sammael had to drive the Trollocs and the Myrdraal to Shadar Logoth because they fear the evil there. They clearly know about it so Sammael would be told when he needs to drive them there as they won't go alone. Perhaps his ego is big enough that when he finds out he doesn't care, which is the only explanation I can think of, but this is suicidal behaviour and surely he would at least have been on the lookout for fog when he got there.

Finally, you make another interesting point I didn't think of, but I don't think it's enough. You call the angreal "measly", but the book says that the Forsaken are trying to get hold of them and remember an angreal is the only reason Rand beats Asmodean and how Rand can hold off Lanfear, so they are definitely worth getting. A Black Ajah sister can easily just lie and say they lost the angreal, hell it doesn't even have to be a good lie, "I must have dropped it" would do. They would take whatever punishment is given rather than face disobeying a Forsaken. There is no way they would be called out for being Black Ajah, the books are very explicitly clear that the Aes Sedai do anything they can to not acknowledge the existence of the Black Ajah, so this would most definitely not be their first response to someone "losing" an angreal, even if they didn't believe them.

As for the Moiraine thing just because she saw the future doesn't mean she needs to do what she saw. This gives her a preview and she could be even more prepared for balefire. Maybe she saw this future because any attempt to channel will lead to her losing and this is the only way possible to win, so she does it, but I find this highly unlikely because you must bear in mind Lanfear has just shielded and is now hurting Elayne and Aviendha who are both very strong (maybe she tied these off). She is also trying to shield Rand using all of her remaining strength and he is just managing to hold her off. If she somehow did get distracted and react to Moiraine, Rand would be able to shield her or fight back in some non-lethal way. More importantly there are plenty of times in the books where someone can take hold of and then channel Saidar before the other person can react, it happens all the time. Maybe I am wrong here and you can provide some evidence from the books, but it seems very unlikely Lanfear can stop Moiraine firing off her balefire.

Two things: Lanfear is an incredibly skilled channeler. She was, as you noted, doing many many things at once. More than that, though, per her vision Moiraine had placed a very powerful angreal on that wagon, and Lanfear was using it. It is this thing that Moiraine yanks out of her hand while pushing themselves towards the Doorway.

And you must also remember that Moiraine is someone who has absolute belief in the way of the Wheel. She does what she sees in her future, because she genuinely does believe the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

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If Sammael wanted to be sure he wasn't near another channeler he could have chosen a spot in a random forest, a desert, one of the many other abandoned ruined cities, literally anywhere not in a city/town/village or by a main road. There is literally no need to choose Shadar Logoth to be sure.

But none of those places would be something that could be understood as a place Rand had marked as his own. Sammael wanted to defeat Rand at a place Rand had been in and marked. Most of those were big cities. Shadar Logoth was the one empty place that fit that criteria.

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The second point is an interesting one, but it can't explain it. The book clearly states that Sammael had to drive the Trollocs and the Myrdraal to Shadar Logoth because they fear the evil there. They clearly know about it so Sammael would be told when he needs to drive them there as they won't go alone. Perhaps his ego is big enough that when he finds out he doesn't care, which is the only explanation I can think of, but this is suicidal behaviour and surely he would at least have been on the lookout for fog when he got there.

Oh he certainly knew enough about the place. I'm just saying he didn't know all the details. And definitely did not give enough credit to the danger. We see the Forsaken underestimate the dangers of this Age all the time.

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Finally, you make another interesting point I didn't think of, but I don't think it's enough. You call the angreal "measly", but the book says that the Forsaken are trying to get hold of them and remember an angreal is the only reason Rand beats Asmodean and how Rand can hold off Lanfear, so they are definitely worth getting.

Not so. Mesaana specifically says they were really looking for sa'angreal, not angreal. The reason is simple. Angreal are helpful, but they don't make victory certain. A sa'angreal is the only way to overwhelmingly turn the odds in your favor.

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A Black Ajah sister can easily just lie and say they lost the angreal, hell it doesn't even have to be a good lie, "I must have dropped it" would do.

It wouldn't, because Aes Sedai know that angreal are addictive, apart from being incredibly rare. No one can reasonably claim they just happened to forget where they put an angreal. As for sa'angreal, there really is no way to say "I just lost it". No one would believe it, and it would obviously be a lie.

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They would take whatever punishment is given rather than face disobeying a Forsaken. There is no way they would be called out for being Black Ajah, the books are very explicitly clear that the Aes Sedai do anything they can to not acknowledge the existence of the Black Ajah, so this would most definitely not be their first response to someone "losing" an angreal, even if they didn't believe them.

First, disbelief in the Black Ajah is not something all Aes Sedai share. Second, I'm not saying this is the first thing they will wonder. But if some Aes Sedai comes up with such a transparent cock and bull story, the Hall might have her rooms searched, or question her much more deeply, which will lead to having to lie more. Eventually, that can lead to exposure.

Also, think of the psychology of this. Will any Forsaken want to show one of her underlings any sign of weakness? "Hey, useless worm, I need you to go get me something that makes me stronger, because I'm not so confident of my strength now"... I doubt most of them wanted to even hint such a thing to an Aes Sedai.

And you must also remember that Moiraine is someone who has absolute belief in the way of the Wheel. She does what she sees in her future, because she genuinely does believe the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

In this case, Moiraine acted upon a future she saw in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal shows ALL POSSIBLE futures, so the futures that Meta postulates were certainly included. Moiraine had to choose the act/future that gave the best result for the Light, not the best result for "Moiraine."

I don't recall that we're ever told what alternatives she considered worse than what happened, but we do know that she had as much free-will and choice as is ever possible in the WoT, and she chose to push Lanfear through that Doorway into 'Finn-land.

In this case, Moiraine acted upon a future she saw in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal shows ALL POSSIBLE futures, so the futures that Meta postulates were certainly included. Moiraine had to choose the act/future that gave the best result for the Light, not the best result for "Moiraine."

I don't recall that we're ever told what alternatives she considered worse than what happened, but we do know that she had as much free-will and choice as is ever possible in the WoT, and she chose to push Lanfear through that Doorway into 'Finn-land.

Her letter to Rand spoke of three paths, here's what she says about the other two...

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The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.

In this case, Moiraine acted upon a future she saw in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal shows ALL POSSIBLE futures, so the futures that Meta postulates were certainly included. Moiraine had to choose the act/future that gave the best result for the Light, not the best result for "Moiraine."

I don't recall that we're ever told what alternatives she considered worse than what happened, but we do know that she had as much free-will and choice as is ever possible in the WoT, and she chose to push Lanfear through that Doorway into 'Finn-land.

Certainly, she saw all those pathways. But down this one, Lanfear did not eliminate Rand, and Moiraine then had to trust to him to take care of things. I'm saying she probably gave no thoughts to alternatives that were good for her, because she accepts things that happen due to her philosophy.

This doesn't mean she actually has no choice. Instead, she made that choice when she chose to accept that she wouldn't question what the Wheel did.

I did. Hopefully Dav will notice and remove my original post from his reply.

Unfortunately, he just logged out. Oy.

Sorry...and I goofed for not using SPOILER tags to black out my quoted text too.

~hangs head in shame~

__________________Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful female channeler ever and females are typically more skilled at weaving than men. So while Rand/LTT & Ishy might have been a couple steps above her on the power scale, she was likely a better spinner/weaver of individual threads of power.

There was a reason she was on the Bore research program...and it likely wasn't just her stunningly amazing looks.

__________________Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."