I seem to recall him having difficulty with Roddick as well as Isner's recent upset.

For someone with the best return of serve of all time, I would not expect him to struggle.

Perhaps Djokovic returning Nadal's WTA serve made people think his return is better than it is?

Or is he just a big 2nd serve returner like Agassi?

finishingmove

03-18-2012, 09:36 PM

Because he's an aggressive returner and not a moonballer.

HKz

03-18-2012, 09:43 PM

I don't think he is necessarily bad at returning big servers, but it seems that he just gets really frustrated against big servers being unable to put a return in play or having no play on a serve at all which ends up putting a little pressure on himself. Federer does a bit better blocking huge servers and he doesn't seem to get too down on himself when facing a big server which I think is really key.

DrJules

03-18-2012, 09:45 PM

Djokovic likes to hit the return of serve and Roddick/Isner are just about fast enough to rush him.

venky91

03-18-2012, 09:49 PM

Since when was Djokovic the best returner of all time?

SheepleBuster

03-18-2012, 09:56 PM

I seem to recall him having difficulty with Roddick as well as Isner's recent upset.

For someone with the best return of serve of all time, I would not expect him to struggle.

Perhaps Djokovic returning Nadal's WTA serve made people think his return is better than it is?

Or is he just a big 2nd serve returner like Agassi?

He does not have the best return. Murray does. But Murray has no brain for tennis. He chokes on his own serve

martinatreue

03-18-2012, 10:11 PM

Djoker is one of the most aggressive returners when taking a full swing. That doesn't make him the best returner. Roger has way more versatility as does Murray.

MuzzahLovah

03-18-2012, 10:12 PM

Murray is a better returner, especially of big serves. Djokovic is consistently aggressive off the return, which isn't always the best play against big servers. Djokovic is better at incorporating the return into an aggressive point while Murray sometimes hits a great return but doesn't take advantage, and allows the point to go back to neutral.

Deathless Mortal

03-18-2012, 10:14 PM

:lol:
Djokovic the best returner ever, that's a huge exaggeration.

green25814

03-18-2012, 10:18 PM

I don't think Djokovic's return has ever been that amazing. Its pretty great obviously, but he's not the best of all time.

His problem against big servers is his mentality, he lets himself become frustrated.

Haelfix

03-18-2012, 10:21 PM

Novak has a sweet spot for servers.. He's great with guys who hit from 115-135, and his short compact bh can really put a tremendous amount of those balls back into play at a high consistency right in the servers feet. Higher than that, and he has to lunge for them, which is typically why 1handed backhands often do better against the 1st serve (see eg Henman).

So even though he's probably the best overall returner (up there with Murray imo), he's not the best on tour against the huge servers. I'd say Murray, Ferrer, Federer once upon a time, and a few others can deal with them better.

niksonion

03-18-2012, 10:23 PM

I don't think he is necessarily bad at returning big servers, but it seems that he just gets really frustrated against big servers being unable to put a return in play or having no play on a serve at all which ends up putting a little pressure on himself. Federer does a bit better blocking huge servers and he doesn't seem to get too down on himself when facing a big server which I think is really key.

Excellent oppinion...I watch Nole since 2004...You are spot on...Only point of view You didnt mention is: He has serious mental issues-he is such perfectionist that something like big serve from other side puts very negative picture of himself in his own eyes, that frustration grows and grows with every lost point.That is my oppinion-and, as a big admirer of his achievments,that is one thing I could not understand all these years...

Timariot

03-18-2012, 10:25 PM

Like servers, returners have different styles and sometimes there are poor match-ups. Agassi was widely acclaimed as perhaps the best returner of the game, but he was not that great against some big servers, particularly Pete. Tim Henman, OTOH, was great against huge servers, but struggled against steady kick servers. etc.

vojomocart

03-18-2012, 10:32 PM

Have anyone of you fanboys ever seen Agassi return of serve?

rob_z

03-18-2012, 10:40 PM

I seem to recall him having difficulty with Roddick as well as Isner's recent upset.

For someone with the best return of serve of all time, I would not expect him to struggle.

Perhaps Djokovic returning Nadal's WTA serve made people think his return is better than it is?

Or is he just a big 2nd serve returner like Agassi?

Because Isner hit around 70% first serves in against Djokovic. In the first set Isner had an extreme percentage of 76%. It is even for a great returner difficult to return Isners's first serve. If Djokovic plays Isner more often I think he would get a better reading of the serve. But he hadn't play Isner since 2010.
Isner is a difficult player for everyone to play against. Especially if he plays over 70% 1st serves in. He also beat Federer a couple of weeks ago and did well agaisnt Nadal at the French Open 2011.

rob_z

03-18-2012, 10:41 PM

Since when was Djokovic the best returner of all time?

McEnroe said that.

FedvsNole

03-18-2012, 10:42 PM

Fed in his prime was the best BIG serve returner on first serves EVER and the hardest to ace. He's still pretty damn good now.

Djokovic is the most CONSISTENT returner. Isner said he purposely took more off the serve vs roger because that goes right into rogers game of blocking big returns back.

Anyways, isner got broken twice by both fed and nole. But fed won a higher percentage of points on both of isner first and second serves than nole did. People forget how well fed can still return. Forget about his prime when he was ridiculous returning first serves when he needed it.

Isner served 73% first serves today by the way and 74% yesterday so fed did a great job and actually had almost double the number of aces as isner did.

Alex999

03-18-2012, 10:59 PM

:lol:
Djokovic the best returner ever, that's a huge exaggeration.
no it's not. he is ONE OF the best returner ever. yeah, Murray is pretty good too. and excuse me, if you are so smart, who is a better returner right now? rubbish. you know nothing about the game, whatever....

drazyc

03-18-2012, 11:24 PM

Djokovic is a very aggressive returner, but his block return is not all that great. Nadal, Federer and Murray probably have just as good or better block returns. Sometimes you need to have a more defensive mindset returning, simply because the guy on the opposite side is serving fantastic. Federer is often too defensive on his returns, because he knows that he can probably win the point by getting it back to neutral. That has been Roger's achilles heel against the top guys in the past few years because Roger is not any longer commanding neutral rallies against those.

HKz

03-18-2012, 11:32 PM

no it's not. he is ONE OF the best returner ever. yeah, Murray is pretty good too. and excuse me, if you are so smart, who is a better returner right now? rubbish. you know nothing about the game, whatever....

Nothing to do with right now. Sure he is one of the better ones, and arguably most effective one right now especially when it comes to play the big boys, but I'd put my money on some other players when returning serve, especially huge serves.

Djokovic is a very aggressive returner, but his block return is not all that great. Nadal, Federer and Murray probably have just as good or better block returns. Sometimes you need to have a more defensive mindset returning, simply because the guy on the opposite side is serving fantastic. Federer is often too defensive on his returns, because he knows that he can probably win the point by getting it back to neutral. That has been Roger's achilles heel against the top guys in the past few years because Roger is not any longer commanding neutral rallies against those.

What? Nadal is as well a pretty poor returner in terms of facing big servers.. Federer is too defensive normally against weaker or spun serves, but you have to say he is pretty much the best in the business against huge first servers.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel

03-18-2012, 11:35 PM

LOL he's not even top 20 best returners of all time

and no where near on the level of peak federer at returns

the simple answer to your question is that federer reads a serve better than novak

federer's technique is on another level

federer has every shot in the book- so he has more options- nole has "take a swing, or cushion it back in"

asotgod

03-18-2012, 11:47 PM

LOL he's not even top 20 best returners of all time

and no where near on the level of peak federer at returns

the simple answer to your question is that federer reads a serve better than novak

federer's technique is on another level

federer has every shot in the book- so he has more options- nole has "take a swing, or cushion it back in"

Not sure it has to do with technique. Maybe one hander versus two hander, imo. Both have very good anticipation. Djokovic actually did well in the first 2 sets against Isner. His frustration is what made him begin to guess. Maybe Federer's anticipation is better but you cannot base it on one opponent. Another thing is that Federer seems to enjoy spoiling opponent's stats. Even when it is not possible for Federer to do anything with the ball anymore, he seems to still get his racket on it just for the heck of it. There was a point yesterday where Nadal hit a great crosscourt shot that Federer could do nothing with. Instead of allowing it as a winner, his racket touched it. So, I bet it will register as a forced error instead of a winner.

Anyway, both guys service return methods work well and suit their styles of play. One match cannot be used to judge that.

HKz

03-18-2012, 11:48 PM

Not sure it has to do with technique. Maybe one hander versus two hander, imo. Both have very good anticipation. Djokovic actually did well in the first 2 sets against Isner. His frustration is what made him begin to guess. Maybe Federer's anticipation is better but you cannot base it on one opponent. Another thing is that Federer seems to enjoy spoiling opponent's stats. Even when it is not possible for Federer to do anything with the ball anymore, he seems to still get his racket on it just for the heck of it. There was a point yesterday where Nadal hit a great crosscourt shot that Federer could do nothing with. Instead of allowing it as a winner, his racket touched it. So, I bet it will register as a forced error instead of a winner.

Anyway, both guys service return methods work well and suit their styles of play. One match cannot be used to judge that.

Roddick?

zlaja777

03-18-2012, 11:52 PM

He returned well against Isner.

asotgod

03-18-2012, 11:53 PM

Roddick?

Even with Roddick, Djoke returned the ball. It is what he did with the next shot that killed him. Typically when Djokovic returns Roddick's ball deep, Roddick goes with the backhand to backhand exchange and sometimes with his funny slice. These two things seem to frustrate Djokovic a lot that he goes for too much while trying to be aggressive or he becomes to passive and then loses the point on an error.

The same thing happened many times against Isner yesterday. That was why I knew Federer would have no problem with Isner. Federer is ultra-aggressive whenever there is an opportunity to attack (say Fed at 90% and Djok at 70%, imo). I think it was the difference between Djokovic's loss and Fed's win.

Funny enough, Djokovic's balance of attack versus defense works better against Nadal than Fed's balance of attack versus defense works against Nadal. The reverse is the case with the servers, imo.

drazyc

03-19-2012, 12:02 AM

What? Nadal is as well a pretty poor returner in terms of facing big servers.. Federer is too defensive normally against weaker or spun serves, but you have to say he is pretty much the best in the business against huge first servers.

I don't think Nadal's first serve returns are poor. He has many block returns close to the baseline against good servers. Just watch some of his returning performances against Roger. His problem is more often some of his topspin returns dropping short.

Roddickominator

03-19-2012, 12:26 AM

I don't think Djokovic actually reads serves exceptionally well before it comes off the server's racquet. He is just so athletic that he is able to make up for that and still hit great returns against most players. Against guys like Isner or Roddick, you don't really have time to do anything if he hits a good serve and you didn't get a read on it. Then the Djoker starts to get frustrated and it only compounds the problem.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 12:30 AM

Have anyone of you fanboys ever seen Agassi return of serve?

Yep, he was not a great first serve returner.

I should really break out the stats again and demonstrate how absurd it is to call Djokovic the best returner of all time. He isn't even the best returner currently, yet people have bought into this myth due to one incredible season.

tennizen

03-19-2012, 12:32 AM

Good posts, asotgod:yeah:

Clydey

03-19-2012, 12:37 AM

Fed in his prime was the best BIG serve returner on first serves EVER and the hardest to ace. He's still pretty damn good now.

Djokovic is the most CONSISTENT returner. Isner said he purposely took more off the serve vs roger because that goes right into rogers game of blocking big returns back.

Anyways, isner got broken twice by both fed and nole. But fed won a higher percentage of points on both of isner first and second serves than nole did. People forget how well fed can still return. Forget about his prime when he was ridiculous returning first serves when he needed it.

Isner served 73% first serves today by the way and 74% yesterday so fed did a great job and actually had almost double the number of aces as isner did.

Fed has always been a very good first serve returner, but never the best. Over the past six seasons, Murray and Davydenko have been head and shoulders above everyone else statistically.

emotion

03-19-2012, 12:38 AM

Djokovic (and David Ferrer) have such fantastic topspin returns it's like they never even bothered developing a block, so the very biggest servers they struggle.

rocketassist

03-19-2012, 01:04 AM

I'll always take Murray's return over Nole's.

Filo V.

03-19-2012, 01:06 AM

Because he's not the best returner of all-time.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel

03-19-2012, 01:19 AM

michae chang had a better 1st serve return percentage than agassi

but on the second serve (except against pistol) andre is GOAT returner

Clydey

03-19-2012, 01:21 AM

michae chang had a better 1st serve return percentage than agassi

There are about 50 players who had a superior percentage to Agassi.

BIGMARAT

03-19-2012, 01:40 AM

Can all the Murray tards stfu and wait till that MUG win something important before claiming he is the best at anything!!!

Super Djoker

03-19-2012, 01:43 AM

This thread is dumb ! No,one likes playing big servers ! And yes Djokovic has got a good return , he hits all his returns very deep and always gets close to the lines ! Open your eyes people ! Murray is a good returner but doesn't return with the aggression of Novak !

stewietennis

03-19-2012, 01:46 AM

This thread is dumb ! No,one likes playing big servers ! And yes Djokovic has got a good return , he hits all his returns very deep and always gets close to the lines ! Open your eyes people ! Murray is a good returner but doesn't return with the aggression of Novak !

^ This. No one likes playing big servers.

HKz

03-19-2012, 01:49 AM

^ This. No one likes playing big servers.

Federer? :confused:

Action Jackson

03-19-2012, 01:54 AM

Federer? :confused:

Melzer (sans Roddick, he won their last match) and Ferrer do quite well when playing these guys.

Djokovic doesn't have the block return or use it, that's always effective against the big server. Get them back and then the rallies will be in favour of Djokovic. It's going to happen getting aced by massive servers, can't get frustrated by it.

No, Djokovic is not the best returner of all time.

rocketassist

03-19-2012, 02:06 AM

Can all the Murray tards stfu and wait till that MUG win something important before claiming he is the best at anything!!!

He is the best returner. There I did that before he won something important. Do I get put in the doghouse or win a booby prize?

HKz

03-19-2012, 02:09 AM

Even with Roddick, Djoke returned the ball. It is what he did with the next shot that killed him. Typically when Djokovic returns Roddick's ball deep, Roddick goes with the backhand to backhand exchange and sometimes with his funny slice. These two things seem to frustrate Djokovic a lot that he goes for too much while trying to be aggressive or he becomes to passive and then loses the point on an error.

The same thing happened many times against Isner yesterday. That was why I knew Federer would have no problem with Isner. Federer is ultra-aggressive whenever there is an opportunity to attack (say Fed at 90% and Djok at 70%, imo). I think it was the difference between Djokovic's loss and Fed's win.

Funny enough, Djokovic's balance of attack versus defense works better against Nadal than Fed's balance of attack versus defense works against Nadal. The reverse is the case with the servers, imo.

Sure he makes a lot of returns, but he also doesn't return a load and after a while of being unable to break Roddick, he gets extremely frustrated quite quickly. He may not always show it, but you can tell in his body language and the way he plays the following points. I mean Roddick averages like 80% of winning the point when the first serve goes in against Djokovic when he wins and averages 70% when he loses. Hell, in Australia Roddick won nearly 90% of his first serve points. It isn't just Roddick as you have Federer and Tsonga also giving Djokovic trouble over the years and much of it has to do with their first serve. You saw how enormously frustrated Djokovic was when Isner would hit a great serve. Sometimes you can't do anything about it and you just have to let it go, but Djokovic to me gets way too excited against big servers.

I don't think Nadal's first serve returns are poor. He has many block returns close to the baseline against good servers. Just watch some of his returning performances against Roger. His problem is more often some of his topspin returns dropping short.

That's against Federer. For some reason he reads Federer like a book almost every time even if his previous round match was atrocious. I don't think the Federer vs. Nadal comparison can be used in this. However, take a look at some of his previous performances against other big servers. The reason why Rafa looks so good, and obviously wins nearly all those matches, is normally because players with huge servers are normally players with terrible footwork and Nadal is certainly one of the absolute worst players to face if you don't have great footwork. Not to mention he is so good at demolishing players on clay even on the return of serve, so it skews his year round stat as well.

asotgod

03-19-2012, 02:37 AM

Sure he makes a lot of returns, but he also doesn't return a load and after a while of being unable to break Roddick, he gets extremely frustrated quite quickly. He may not always show it, but you can tell in his body language and the way he plays the following points. I mean Roddick averages like 80% of winning the point when the first serve goes in against Djokovic when he wins and averages 70% when he loses. Hell, in Australia Roddick won nearly 90% of his first serve points. It isn't just Roddick as you have Federer and Tsonga also giving Djokovic trouble over the years and much of it has to do with their first serve. You saw how enormously frustrated Djokovic was when Isner would hit a great serve. Sometimes you can't do anything about it and you just have to let it go, but Djokovic to me gets way too excited against big servers.

Good points made, HKz. One thing though is that the serve alone cannot be taken in silo. If it was the case, someone like Karlovic or Raonic will be #1. It is a combination of two things: how good the serve is and the threat posed by the server in backing up his serve. If the server poses a bigger threat backing up his serve either at the net or based on his baseline game, then the returner has more difficulty. That is why Djokovic has struggled against the likes of Federer, Tsonga, etc. No doubt, he is not able to return first serves like Fed but he is not that shabby either. Even Fed on some days against likes of Karlovic returns better while on some other days he is aced a lot. It depends on the day as well.

That is why it could be scary if the likes of Isner and Raonic are able to back up their serves with a baseline game like as any of the top 4. If they could do that, we may just enter into a new era of very tall and still dangerous on the baseline athletes. I think that will be the next evolution.

asotgod

03-19-2012, 02:42 AM

That's against Federer. For some reason he reads Federer like a book almost every time even if his previous round match was atrocious. I don't think the Federer vs. Nadal comparison can be used in this. However, take a look at some of his previous performances against other big servers. The reason why Rafa looks so good, and obviously wins nearly all those matches, is normally because players with huge servers are normally players with terrible footwork and Nadal is certainly one of the absolute worst players to face if you don't have great footwork. Not to mention he is so good at demolishing players on clay even on the return of serve, so it skews his year round stat as well.

When Fed plays Nadal, he is too predictable with his serve especially on the deuce side. In yesterday's match by mixing it up a bit better, he was able to get a few free points down the T and some aces. By doing that, he keeps Nadal guessing and should potentially win almost all points on his serve in the deuce side just like Nadal does on the ad-side against Fed. When Fed is too predictable on the deuce side with the serve out wide, should Nadal get a good cross court hit, he drives Federer off the court with his backhand, and then Nadal quickly runs around the forehand and begins to boss Fed around unless he can find a way to neutralize that.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 02:48 AM

He is the best returner. There I did that before he won something important. Do I get put in the doghouse or win a booby prize?

His peerless return statistics apparently only become relevant once he wins a major.

Houstonko

03-19-2012, 02:56 AM

I seem to recall him having difficulty with Roddick as well as Isner's recent upset.

For someone with the best return of serve of all time, I would not expect him to struggle.

Perhaps Djokovic returning Nadal's WTA serve made people think his return is better than it is?

Or is he just a big 2nd serve returner like Agassi?

Djoko has best return of the tour but Fed is best reader. Djoko can return average servers better than Fed but he can't handle strong serves. There is difference between best reader and ROS. Agassi can't handle strong serves well too.

We're 3 months into the season, genius. There's a reason why guys like Berlocq are near the top right now. I'm talking about career statistics, as an overall returner. This is particularly true when you disregard clay court statistics, which aren't particularly relevant to return stats. Otherwise, you get players like Volandri near the top.

Haelfix

03-19-2012, 04:04 AM

Look, just like serves, there is no one size fits all. If I had to take a return of first serve, i'd pick something like Murray, Davydenko, Hewitt or Fed in his prime

If I wanted a steady yet powerful second serve return, i'd take Novak. If I wanted to return spinny serves, i'd pick Andy, Ferrer or Novak. If I wanted the ultimate offensive 2nd serve return, i'd take Nalbandian or Blake.

In general, it is true that certain players develop reads on certain players better than others. I mean, Wawrinka for instance has trouble winning simple service games against Federer, simply b/c the latter knows exactly where the ball is going each time b/c they practise together so much.

HKz

03-19-2012, 04:12 AM

When Fed plays Nadal, he is too predictable with his serve especially on the deuce side. In yesterday's match by mixing it up a bit better, he was able to get a few free points down the T and some aces. By doing that, he keeps Nadal guessing and should potentially win almost all points on his serve in the deuce side just like Nadal does on the ad-side against Fed. When Fed is too predictable on the deuce side with the serve out wide, should Nadal get a good cross court hit, he drives Federer off the court with his backhand, and then Nadal quickly runs around the forehand and begins to boss Fed around unless he can find a way to neutralize that.

It is absolutely baffling though how Nadal can still read Federer that well. I mean take their Australian Open match for example where Nadal played not that great against Berdych who was hurting Nadal pretty badly on serve. Yet when Roger and Rafa played, Roger just could not find an ace/unreturnable when it mattered most as Nadal was just getting everything back. It is quite amazing really, because Nadal sometimes has more trouble returning serve against players who are arguably worse than Federer when it comes to the serve yet picks up nearly everything when he plays Roger.

chalkdust

03-19-2012, 09:05 AM

able to back up their serves with a baseline game like as any of the top 4. If they could do that, we may just enter into a new era of very tall and still dangerous on the baseline athletes. I think that will be the next evolution.

Could be. Krajicek was a bit like this, except he was always injured. That might be an issue for the big guys, how to stay fit.

paseo

03-19-2012, 09:16 AM

Another thing is that Federer seems to enjoy spoiling opponent's stats. Even when it is not possible for Federer to do anything with the ball anymore, he seems to still get his racket on it just for the heck of it. There was a point yesterday where Nadal hit a great crosscourt shot that Federer could do nothing with. Instead of allowing it as a winner, his racket touched it. So, I bet it will register as a forced error instead of a winner.

What a douche, this Federer.

We're 3 months into the season, genius. There's a reason why guys like Berlocq are near the top right now. I'm talking about career statistics, as an overall returner. This is particularly true when you disregard clay court statistics, which aren't particularly relevant to return stats. Otherwise, you get players like Volandri near the top.

Show us the stat, please.

EddieNero

03-19-2012, 09:26 AM

The reason seems very simple. Djokovic loves to control the rallies what Nadal with his crappy serve allows him to do.
He can also pump up a little bit after winning a gruelling exchange and throw his opponent into disbelief.
Against big serves points are usually very quick therefore Djokovic has no room for build up a aura of invincibility around himself and finds it difficult to get into the match.

That's why Roddick has been successful against Nole, he either ends(or at least used to in prime years) a point with a ace/winner or makes an ue.
No time to break in.

SERBINATOR

03-19-2012, 09:29 AM

I don't think ROS was the problem against Isner, it was his Own serve that broke down miserably

Roddick Exploited the 1.0 ver doubt he could keep up with 2.0 ver

Tsonga's only victory last year against Novak was a Walkover, and Novak beat him pretty handsomly in Wimby 11

Novak goes for that aggresive Flat returns as opposed to Fed's slice Block on booming serves, and Nole has done a pretty good job so far...

pray-for-palestine-and-israel

03-19-2012, 10:35 AM

We're 3 months into the season, genius. There's a reason why guys like Berlocq are near the top right now. I'm talking about career statistics, as an overall returner. This is particularly true when you disregard clay court statistics, which aren't particularly relevant to return stats. Otherwise, you get players like Volandri near the top.

if you would take a look at my post directly above the post you quoted- you will notice i posted the 2011 stats for return games won
-nole was comfortably number 1 there

Clydey

03-19-2012, 02:05 PM

if you would take a look at my post directly above the post you quoted- you will notice i posted the 2011 stats for return games won
-nole was comfortably number 1 there

And like I said, I was talking about career statistics. Moreover, this thread has been more about returning the first serve. It's about why Djokovic struggled against Isner. Here's the 2011 first serve return stats, which you conveniently failed to notice.

1. Andy Murray - 37%
2. Novak Djokovic - 36%

Even during his best ever season, which he will never repeat, he still didn't return the first serve better than Murray.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 02:09 PM

What a douche, this Federer.

Show us the stat, please.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=11712538&postcount=32

I posted stats in that thread and a similar discussion took place.

Time Violation

03-19-2012, 02:46 PM

Here's the 2011 first serve return stats, which you conveniently failed to notice.

1. Andy Murray - 37%
2. Novak Djokovic - 36%

Even during his best ever season, which he will never repeat, he still didn't return the first serve better than Murray.

Nice :) However, it's interesting to see what kind of players they played against during 2011:

Top 10

1. Novak 26 matches
2. Murray 14 matches

Top 50+

1. Novak 14 matches
2. Murray 21 matches

Much easier to look good when your competition is further down the ranks. Even worse if the stats include those three matches in DC, that Murray played against unranked players, I didn't count them above :p

rocketassist

03-19-2012, 03:12 PM

Nice :) However, it's interesting to see what kind of players they played against during 2011:

Top 10

1. Novak 26 matches
2. Murray 14 matches

Top 50+

1. Novak 14 matches
2. Murray 21 matches

Much easier to look good when your competition is further down the ranks. Even worse if the stats include those three matches in DC, that Murray played against unranked players, I didn't count them above :p

Worse ranked doesn't necessarily mean worse serve of course.

EliSter

03-19-2012, 03:19 PM

LOL he's not even top 20 best returners of all time

and no where near on the level of peak federer at returns

the simple answer to your question is that federer reads a serve better than novak

federer's technique is on another level

federer has every shot in the book- so he has more options- nole has "take a swing, or cushion it back in"

All hail the might ruler of the world....in every aparment he is perfect specimen of greatness :rolleyes:

Purple Rainbow

03-19-2012, 03:28 PM

Why are Novak Djokovic and Best returner of all time placed in the same sentence?

rob_z

03-19-2012, 03:36 PM

Nice :) However, it's interesting to see what kind of players they played against during 2011:

Top 10

1. Novak 26 matches
2. Murray 14 matches

Top 50+

1. Novak 14 matches
2. Murray 21 matches

Much easier to look good when your competition is further down the ranks. Even worse if the stats include those three matches in DC, that Murray played against unranked players, I didn't count them above :p

True. A very bad comparison to take just the returns percentage and don't have a look at the opponents they played.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 03:42 PM

Nice :) However, it's interesting to see what kind of players they played against during 2011:

Top 10

1. Novak 26 matches
2. Murray 14 matches

Top 50+

1. Novak 14 matches
2. Murray 21 matches

Much easier to look good when your competition is further down the ranks. Even worse if the stats include those three matches in DC, that Murray played against unranked players, I didn't count them above :p

What does that have to do with anything? Most of the serve bots aren't even in the top 10. Of the top 20 players in points won on the first serve during 2011, less than half were ranked in the top 10. That deflates your whole argument.

If 2011 stats don't satisfy you, go through each year. It's the same story. Murray wins more points returning the first serve, so there's no need to invent excuses.

Mystique

03-19-2012, 03:46 PM

Djokovic is without doubt the best aggressive returner of serve. He can rip insane winners of it and make deep aggressive returns of normal serves better than anyone on tour today.
However against the big servers, he is put on the defensive especially if those guys have a massive serving day like Isner did in the IW SF. And in that position, his ROS isnt the best. For example, he doesnt consistently do what Federer does with these big servers. Federer's aggressive ROS can be atrociously bad at times, but his block return is stuff of legends. Unlike Federer, Djokovic doesnt seem to be able to use the server's pace and block it right back into play. That said, even inspite of this, Novak doesnt exactly struggle against the good servers. When they have the kind of day that Isner did two days ago, more or less no one will beat them...:shrug:

In that sense, Murray is perhaps a more adaptable returner of serve as in he does both pretty well while Novak's aggressive serve return is many times as good as his defensive return.

As for best ROS of all time, I think Novak is up there in the top 5 easy but I still believe Agassi's aggressive ROS is still a little better, both in its creativity and consistency.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 03:46 PM

True. A very bad comparison to take just the returns percentage and don't have a look at the opponents they played.

See my last post. That excuse doesn't cut it. David Ferrer is a far superior player to Ivo Karlovic. Despite this, who do you think wins more points off of their first serve? As I pointed out, players outside of the top 10 dominated the first serve points stat.

Besides, Murray finishes ahead of Djokovic every single year (besides 2010) on points won returning the first serve.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 03:48 PM

Djokovic is without doubt the best aggressive returner of serve. He can rip insane winners of it and make deep aggressive returns of normal serves better than anyone on tour today.
However again the big servers, he is put on the defensive especially if those guys have a massive serving day like Isner did in the IW SF. And in that position, his ROS isnt the best. For example, he doesnt consistently do what Federer does with these big servers. Federer's aggressive ROS can be atrociously bad at times, but his block return is stuff of legends. Unlike Federer, Djokovic doesnt seem to be able to use the server's pace and block it right back into play. That said, even inspite of this, Novak doesnt exactly struggle against the good servers. When they have the kind of day that Isner did two days ago, more or less no one will beat them...:shrug:

In that sense, Murray is perhaps a more adaptable returner of serve as in he does both pretty well while Novak's aggressive serve return is many times as good as his defensive return.

There are better pure second serve returners than both Murray and Djokovic. However, Murray is still statisically a superior second serve returner. Djokovic has had a single exceptional year on return.

Time Violation

03-19-2012, 03:58 PM

What does that have to do with anything? Most of the serve bots aren't even in the top 10. Of the top 20 players in points won on the first serve during 2011, less than half were ranked in the top 10. That deflates your whole argument.

If 2011 stats don't satisfy you, go through each year. It's the same story. Murray wins more points returning the first serve, so there's no need to invent excuses.

What does that have to do? It has everything to do. Stats will count points exactly the same when Novak wins them off Federer in USO semis, and when Murray triple bagels some unranked player in DC. That's pretty much stats padding as they call it in basketball. It's how you play in crunch time that matters, to borrow one more basketball term. If you look them isolated, then yea, 37 >>>>> 36, but that has little to do with the final result, it only says who has the best statistical percent of return :)

Saberq

03-19-2012, 04:03 PM

Clydey again talking about Murray and his return without basis....no matter........I give him this Murray is better at returning fastest 1st serves in ......only those returns are not aggressive like Novak's .......But of course a bunch of people from MTF know more than Connors,Sampras and Agassi..........

Clydey

03-19-2012, 04:19 PM

What does that have to do? It has everything to do. Stats will count points exactly the same when Novak wins them off Federer in USO semis, and when Murray triple bagels some unranked player in DC. That's pretty much stats padding as they call it in basketball. It's how you play in crunch time that matters, to borrow one more basketball term. If you look them isolated, then yea, 37 >>>>> 36, but that has little to do with the final result, it only says who has the best statistical percent of return :)

I just told you that it's the same in every season. Murray finishes ahead of Djokovic. I also pointed out that your top 10 argument simply collapses when you realise that most of the top servers last year were not even ranked in the top 10.

By the way, you do realise that 1/4 of Nole's matches against the top 10 last year were against the big serving Nadal, right? :lol:

I guess it must be a coincidence that Murray consistently finishes ahead of Djokovic in the stats.

Saberq

03-19-2012, 04:23 PM

I just told you that it's the same in every season. Murray finishes ahead of Djokovic. I also pointed out that your top 10 argument simply collapses when you realise that most of the top servers last year were not even ranked in the top 10.

By the way, you do realise that 1/4 of Nole's matches against the top 10 last year were against the big serving Nadal, right? :lol:

I guess it must be a coincidence that Murray consistently finishes ahead of Djokovic in the stats.

OK Clydey say you're right...Murray is better than Novak........why then every tennis expert and former pro says that Novak is the best returner on the tour today......Every article,highlight says that he is better?Why is never Murray mentioned?

Clydey

03-19-2012, 04:28 PM

OK Clydey say you're right...Murray is better than Novak........why then every tennis expert and former pro says that Novak is the best returner on the tour today......Every article,highlight says that he is better?Why is never Murray mentioned?

Firstly, not everyone is saying it. Secondly, Murray is mentioned. And as for the reason? Obviously Nole's exceptional statistics in 2011. One great year does not make him the GOAT returner, though. It would be nice if he placed inside the top 10 all time before declaring him the greatest to ever wield a racquet.

out_grinder

03-19-2012, 04:29 PM

OK Clydey say you're right...Murray is better than Novak........why then every tennis expert and former pro says that Novak is the best returner on the tour today......Every article,highlight says that he is better?Why is never Murray mentioned?

To be fair, everyone was talking/writing articles about Novak all the time in 2011, it was the thing to do to hype up the game. Murray flies under the radar.

Alex999

03-19-2012, 04:30 PM

first off all, the statement that Djokovic doesn't like to play big servers is silly. second, I don't particularly like this type of discussion 'who's the best, who's bigger' blah, blah. however Nole's ROS is amazing like it or not. Clydey, not sure why you have to talk about Murray every time, in every thread ... you can use stats as much as you want too but Nole makes amazing returns when it really matter. Novak is simply playing big points better than Murray. period

Saberq

03-19-2012, 04:30 PM

Firstly, not everyone is saying it. Secondly, Murray is mentioned. And as for the reason? Obviously Nole's exceptional statistics in 2011. One great year does not make him the GOAT returner, though. It would be nice if he placed inside the top 10 all time before declaring him the greatest to ever wield a racquet.

no I meant even before 2011.......I was listening to Mcenroe in 2008 how Novak's return is the best on tour..........

Saberq

03-19-2012, 04:31 PM

first off all, the statement that Djokovic doesn't like to play big servers is silly. second, I don't particularly like this type of discussion 'who's the best, who's bigger' blah, blah. however Nole's ROS is amazing like it or not. Clydey, not sure why you have to talk about Murray every time, in every thread ... you can use stats as much as you want too but Nole makes amazing returns when it really matter. Novak is simply playing big points better than Murray. period

there is truth in that.......Novak is simply clutch(TB excluded)......he is a big match player and Murray is not.........can someone tell me 1 big match outside of US Open SF 2008 that Murray won in his career?

Slice Winner

03-19-2012, 04:36 PM

From the presser after this match:
Q. Turning point of the last tiebreaker was the return [Isner] hit on 4‑2. Can you just talk about that one point.
NOVAK DJOKOVIC: I don't think it's one point. It's so close, you know. 7‑6 in third set, 7‑5 in the tiebreak, the result is saying all. He hit a couple of, I think, lucky shots. You know, he hit the line on the 1‑0 for him in the third set tiebreaker where I hit the ball out from the forehand side.

This Federer is a terrible sportsman and a sore, bitter loser.

Clydey

03-19-2012, 04:37 PM

no I meant even before 2011.......I was listening to Mcenroe in 2008 how Novak's return is the best on tour..........

That's funny. He said in 2009 during Murray's match with Wawrinka that Murray is the best returner on tour.

Could you be more specific? I'd like to look at the article/video in which McEnroe said that about Djokovic. If he did say that in 2008, he really was going against the statistics.

out_grinder

03-19-2012, 04:37 PM

there is truth in that.......Novak is simply clutch(TB excluded)......he is a big match player and Murray is not.........can someone tell me 1 big match outside of US Open SF 2008 that Murray won in his career?

Are you serious - it is well known that Nadal was exhausted from an over-scheduled Summer by the time he met Murray there.

Nadal breadsticking and bagelling Murray in Miami earlier that year in windy conditions (despite being a shitty wind player as Sunday's match against Federer showed) - demonstrated how badly Nadal would have beaten Murray there if not tired.

In short, that match has a huge asterisk over it, and Murray has not won a single big match in his career. He loses all tight matches, lol.

out_grinder

03-19-2012, 04:40 PM

That's funny. He said in 2009 during Murray's match with Wawrinka that Murray is the best returner on tour.

Could you be more specific? I'd like to look at the article/video in which McEnroe said that about Djokovic. If he did say that in 2008, he really was going against the statistics.

McEnroe proclaims every 4th shot he sees to be the 'greatest shot of all time', and says that every other tennis player is 'certainly the best I've ever seen.'

Saberq

03-19-2012, 04:41 PM

That's funny. He said in 2009 during Murray's match with Wawrinka that Murray is the best returner on tour.

Could you be more specific? I'd like to look at the article/video in which McEnroe said that about Djokovic. If he did say that in 2008, he really was going against the statistics.

To be honest I hear that during the broadcast of US Open 2008 I think it was the 3rd round of so I will look it up..........

Are you serious - it is well known that Nadal was exhausted from an over-scheduled Summer by the time he met Murray there.

Nadal breadsticking and bagelling Murray in Miami earlier that year in windy conditions (despite being a shitty wind player as Sunday's match against Federer showed) - demonstrated how badly Nadal would have beaten Murray there if not tired.

In short, that match has a huge asterisk over it, and Murray has not won a single big match in his career. He loses all tight matches, lol.

No asterisk Murray won fair and square not his fault Nadal was tired.........

rocketassist

03-19-2012, 05:53 PM

Are you serious - it is well known that Nadal was exhausted from an over-scheduled Summer by the time he met Murray there.

Nadal breadsticking and bagelling Murray in Miami earlier that year in windy conditions (despite being a shitty wind player as Sunday's match against Federer showed) - demonstrated how badly Nadal would have beaten Murray there if not tired.

In short, that match has a huge asterisk over it, and Murray has not won a single big match in his career. He loses all tight matches, lol.

Nadal wasn't tired until the last two points.
Nadal didn't bagel and breadstick Murray in Miami 2008. He breadsticked him in the 2009 INDIAN WELLS final.
Nadal is one of the best at handling wind.

So you're talking crap, now fuck off.

Mystique

03-19-2012, 05:58 PM

From the presser after this match:

This Federer is a terrible sportsman and a sore, bitter loser.

haha, nice catch :yeah:

Time Violation

03-19-2012, 06:14 PM

From the presser after this match:

This Federer is a terrible sportsman and a sore, bitter loser.

http://i39.tinypic.com/5cyrzb.jpg

;)

Slice Winner

03-19-2012, 09:12 PM

http://i39.tinypic.com/5cyrzb.jpg

;)

Thanks for missing my point, and in return, making my point even better :)

[hint: my point was not 'Nole is a sore loser' ;) ]

HKz

03-19-2012, 09:34 PM

That's funny. He said in 2009 during Murray's match with Wawrinka that Murray is the best returner on tour.

Could you be more specific? I'd like to look at the article/video in which McEnroe said that about Djokovic. If he did say that in 2008, he really was going against the statistics.

He likes to talk a lot of bullshit nice stuff about players to hype up our sport, which is great, but in general no one should listen to McEnroe when it comes to being the best of something, because you know he is just saying it for good tennis interest and talk. I mean he was already considering Federer for GOAT status like the first year he was number one, and then soon afterwards was talking about how Nadal may as well end up being GOAT.

Time Violation

03-19-2012, 10:00 PM

Thanks for missing my point, and in return, making my point even better :)

[hint: my point was not 'Nole is a sore loser' ;) ]

No I didn't miss. If Federer only said "lucky" and stopped at that nobody would mind, it's the slapping, poor work habits and what not, for which I still think he can be a very bad loser. Not the topic here anyway. :)

MuzzahLovah

03-19-2012, 10:51 PM

first off all, the statement that Djokovic doesn't like to play big servers is silly. second, I don't particularly like this type of discussion 'who's the best, who's bigger' blah, blah. however Nole's ROS is amazing like it or not. Clydey, not sure why you have to talk about Murray every time, in every thread ... you can use stats as much as you want too but Nole makes amazing returns when it really matter. Novak is simply playing big points better than Murray. period

He's not saying Murray is a better player, he's saying he's a better returner. The return is only one shot. The thread isn't about who plays the big points the best, it's about returning against big servers. If you want to argue that, use some stats, otherwise, go to a different thread.

Slice Winner

03-19-2012, 11:18 PM

No I didn't miss. If Federer only said "lucky" and stopped at that nobody would mind, it's the slapping, poor work habits and what not, for which I still think he can be a very bad loser. Not the topic here anyway. :)

I seem to recall him having difficulty with Roddick as well as Isner's recent upset.

For someone with the best return of serve of all time, I would not expect him to struggle.

Perhaps Djokovic returning Nadal's WTA serve made people think his return is better than it is?

Or is he just a big 2nd serve returner like Agassi?

I really like John, but he served out of his mind against Nole on Saturday. Novak made some great returns, but could not make them offensive enough. When Nole was losing to Roddick, he was not the player he is today. John was a bit tight on Sunday, but he did beat Roger in DC this year.

My point is that a lot of Fed haters portrayed him as the world's worst sportsman after the USO SF.
Now Djokovic says almost identical words, and no-one even notices.

My point is that haters like to have double standards :)
For the record, I think Fed is a worse loser than Nole, but neither of their comments were that bad.
Nole's return at the USO was 'high risk', so whether you want to call that lucky, or not, is up to you. Nadal called it lucky.