Talk to any police officer that knows his stuff.. he will tell you he would face an AR or an AK any day of the week rather than face a Garand.

Any police officer that "knows his stuff", doesn't want to face any of those, any day of the week. :-D

I guess I cant argue with that.... The point was more along the lines of power and penetration. I have in my possession a hardened steel plate that is capable of stopping a .50 Cal Browning round. The plate is cracked from proving this.. The plate WAS welded to a coil spring from a car with a disk blade under it to keep it upright.. the .50 blew the welds off and flipped the plate (52 lbs worth) upside down behind the spring. AR's AK's etc.. hit it and splatter leaving a silvery pattern.. the Garand ball ammo (Military surplus) actually leaves a divot in the plate just big enough for me to fit the tip of my pinky finger in.

My brother in law was in the special forces, and before he was killed in a jump, we talked a lot about guns. The satisfaction rating of "issue" sniper weapons was very low. A rifle that shot 3 MOA at one hundred yards made hitting a target out beyond three hundred yards a matter of luck and prayer. Many of the newer weapons were better than that, but you had to be a member of the "Elite" to get those weapons issued to you.. He complained often that it was hard to BE good enough with the weapons they were issued. It was a revelation to me, as I would consider that those boys ALWAYS got the best equipment...

When I qualified with the M16 I took apart all the weapons in our squad, and assembled ONE rifle that we all used to qualify with. Only one of us didnt make expert... The weapons we were issued in the SeaBees were hand me downs from the Marines, and more or less worn out... which reminds me.. I think there is still a bit of outstanding debt on that score... Might be hard to collect after 30 + years though :(

You have a well thought out arsenal and nearly a gun for every need. What are you going to do at the amusement/water park? I don't see anything on your list I'd trust with my life after a couple runs down the water slide.I also can't believe that you every time you pick up one of those guns you don't think something like the following...I like this gun but the new model sure is slick.One of these days I'm going to take a file to this.These grips need.....This holster is too....I should rebuild this....If my friends ask me to help move something and accidentally see that I'm carrying a 9mm I'll tell them the .45 is in the shop and I had to borrow the wife's gun!!:)

I need to read page 2 of this post, I'm still steamin that I wrote a lengthy reply and even copied it to the clipboard - then THOUGHT I had sent it. When I checked and saw it didn't post, I tried pasting and OF COURSE, I had something else pasted in the clipboard by then, ugh.

It really dealt with function vs. bling. If (as in NJ) where you can under perfect conditions get on handgun every 31 days, collecting isn't easy even with a fat wallet. I see several handgunds I aim on test-firing, and some that I know I wouldn't mind dropping on the ground or at least not babying it and others that you'd think of wearing gloves just to keep finger prints off - lol.

All that said, let me read here, and when I get typing time, I have a very long but I think entertaining tale to share.

QUESTION THOUGH: anyone out there have experience with a Glock 19 shooting JHP 124g grain? with all my reading, I think this might be a very solid home protection combo - seen some ballistic gel videos and this cartridge makes up hitting exactly where you aim, and although super-sonic in most cases I think for my home and neighborhood, this will be a safer round to miss with, as well as a devastating round to stop a threat in its tracks.

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Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me.Necessary maybe in the case of a dangerous or sick animal, but killing is not beautiful.

Lone

hmmm... be nice....

I have owned in excess of two hundred guns, and still own a few. Of the ones I do own. only ONE of them kills, and thats during hunting season. The rest are PURELY for pleasure or self defense...

NO GUN, kills by itself.. I have never met a psychopath firearm. I would go so far as to say that every gun i have ever seen, worked on or sold is totally benign... Kinda like my truck.. (It has killed more deer than my rifle)

Have you watched Deer die of sickness and disease? Raccoons? ANY animal die a slow lingering death?

<Necessary maybe in the case of a dangerous or sick animal, but killing is not beautiful.>

Did he say KILLING was beautiful? So... we should not kill, UNTIL they become sick? Well, come out to the country. I can show you 50 deer in one evening of puttering around. I can show you HURT people and destroyed cars. IF.. we were to do away with hunting season this fall.. those deer would be two hundred (That you can see) next year, and eight hundred the following year, and the population would continue to grow, until some disease or sickness began to kill them off. THEN its OK to shoot them? After they begin to suffer? AFTER the accidents go through the roof and HUNDREDS are hurt or killed? OH yes.. That is when the department of game and inland fisheries hires bounty hunters to thin the numbers.. paid for by OUR tax dollars....

I know you cannot see the necessity, and am probably talking mostly to myself. But the bottom line is, GUNS are no more dangerous than any other inanimate object, until a person picks them up.

YOU CANNOT GET RID OF THEM!!!!!!

Pass laws making guns illegal, and they will FLOOD into this country JUST like illegal drugs.. Wait.. DRUGS that are illegal.. ILLEGAL!!! That means that there are NONE right? Because they are illegal, NO ONE has them so the problem is solved right? RIGHT??? Making guns illegal just opens the door for the people who do not care about laws. THEY KNOW, you do not have one, so they no longer fear you...

<Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me.>

Funny thing... of the hundreds I have owned, worked on, and sold.. NOT ONE of them has EVER tried to kill me.. I have spent SO MANY BEAUTIFUL afternoons target shooting and enjoying my guns with my family and friends... None of their guns ever tried to kill them either...

Of them all... ONE will kill during hunting season. ONE I hope never to have to use to kill, and the rest of them will never kill anything. Some of them are custom made (By me) and they are exceedingly beautiful. So basically.. I disagree with you completely. But then... thats why we live in this country right? So we can agree to disagree.. WHY do you think we are free to have such a disagreement?

Old Mech,I don't think the author of this topic wants it to be a heated argument about the pros and cons of gun control, so I won't respond to all your points in public. But I feel that if I think something is so so wrong then I should say something and not let you all think I am silent because I agree with you. Maybe you think I am not nice because you actually changed around what I said..I thought I made it clear I agree with culling animals if necessary..but my only point I wish to make here is that I don't think it is beautiful and actually that concept makes me feel a bit sickened. I'll give you my views privately if you wish.

There is absolutely beauty in firearms. I think of my side-by-side 20 gauge, for example, as "functional art". The figure in the walnut stock, the colors in the case hardening, the borderless hand checkering, the engraving, the incredibly precise tolerances, the history and evolution of double-barrel shotguns. Every season when I take it out after having not used it for a while, I'm amazed all over again that it fits me so well and feels so light and lively. The dogs get excited because they know what's going to happen, and I take pleasure in that. And when a duck folds up in a puff of feathers, there's beauty and deep satisfaction in that, too.

I know a horrific tragedy occurred not that many years ago in Australia, horrific enough to change Australia's government's thoughts and the minds of (most) of the people on guns ownership - especially what the leftist government here calls Assault Weapons.

We have had several horrific mass killings ourselves in resent years, many of which licensed, sane, gun carrying people could have prevented. It was a premiere of a Batman movie and people were dressed as different characters, but In no way should someone walk in and be able to fire 100+ rounds of bullets in a movie theater or anywhere: in states with citizens with conceal carry permits, the shooter would have been dead long before the horror played out there. The Aurora shooter after firing all those, killing 12 and injuring 70, then made it out the door and changed clothes, returned to the theater and set off tear gas like canisters - he made it to his car BEFORE two officers figuring out there was something wrong.

My own opinion on weapons allowed by our laws differs from many, I believe if the law says you can have such a weapon, then you CAN have such a weapon. Here in New Jersey laws are very strict compared to many states, and frankly I am glad that is so - our state being the highest populated per square mile state is just one reason. But personal defense is a RIGHT which can be taken away for many reasons; ex-felons, dis-honorable discharged military, mental health reasons, etc., but I have never believed that someone does not have the right to protect themselves and others. And taking Rights from citizens never leads to a safer, freer nation.

Your point "Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me" obviously said to stir the pot a little, is just not true - people USE guns to kill and that can be a horrible thing yes, but it also can save lives just as easily. And I see no use for law enforcement without guns and hopefully better guns that the bad guys carry.

But back to the topic as I started it, whether the technical design, often the brilliance of simplicity - guns made today that haven't needed modifications for a hundred years and longer, I find amazing. And then the crafting, carvings, true art work that still retains its functionality. There is not just death and sorrow, wars and genocide, there is security and a way to feed ones family. Even today, it still takes months to grow a tomato, but you could have venison on the grill tonight and a moose to feed many people for an entire Winter.

Sarin Gas is something designed for one reason, to kill people - and there are many other weapons that are offensive only, but to take a Country as big as Australia with 22 million people (which is land mass is very close in size to the US) where here we have 310 million people, alone changes the rules dramatically of the use and need for possessing firearms. Guns done sit there holding grudges, plotting crimes, begging for just one more bullet so it can off the entire family - twisted people do. A gun is to blame as a hammer planted into a neighbors skull, or a screw-driver stabbed into the chest of a scorned lover. And to tie in the thought, I'm not sure if I've ever seen a beautiful hammer or screw-driver, but I know I have seen countless guns that are wonderful pieces of art and remarkable weapons when used as intended.

note: the above paragraph has been edited after being told of errors I made when originally posting.

I'm a "middle of the road Conservative", which to me means, I work to have a home and family, abide by the law and have done NOTHING to lose my RIGHT to own firearms. But on the other hand, there is the Leftist (not all of them) but the fifth generation trashy ones, bankrupting our country nearly as fast as our Government is - who has never earned a dollar because stealing it is easier or having the government give it to them, because they think it is due them. They choose to get their guns off the street and kill, rob, rape, and mangle not only themselves, but us. But the only ones accountable are us because we obey the laws.

So we end up arresting them, they call it profiling and use statistics to prove our point that these scum belongs behind bars or better yet, 6ft under. The shame of it is that we also have an "innocent until proven guilty" statue in our country, so sadly we end up arresting and sending this trash to prison so we can pay that bill the rest of theirs lives. Isn't there a point when cold blooded killers, people with souls replaced with pure evil should be put down, lethal injection and incinerated for 4 hours, and flushing their ashes down the toilets of the family's who's "lives they have changed forever". Put that on a ballot and I'll vote on it the minute the polls open.

So, as stated, guns are a tool, they have no conscience, hold no grudges, they are no worse than that screwdriver or hammer. The problem is people, "more importantly" the wrong people who get them, take them away from the equation and there is no gun debate.

So, I'll wait my 8 or 10 months while the government decides that they can't prevent me from getting a gun license because I have no issues that prevent it, but some monster with dead shark eyes, no soul and $100 can get a handgun on nearly any corner in many of the cities in the country. And we call this a legal system - and as mentioned prior (I never minded quoting myself) New Jersey is deciding if they'll allow me my RIGHT to possess firearms. As Michael Bush said, if they can decide whether you can have something or not, it is not a Right but a privilege.

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A gun, no matter how big or small is Sarin Gas, something designed for one reason, to kill people - and there are many other weapons that are offensive only, but to take a Country as big as Australia with 22 million people (which is very close in size to the US) where here we have 310 million people, alone changes the rules dramatically.

As I stated in my above post... I have MANY guns that were designed, and BUILT without ANY intent to kill, people or animals with them.. BEING the person who built them, I can unequivocally say that their purpose, their design, their function, and even the ammunition they fire is NOT suited to killing in any way. Lets talk about that ammunition... typically, its spire point boat tail target ammunition. It does not expand, or fragment if it hits a soft target like a person... it would most likely zip through them, leaving only a small hole in and out... I also own .22 rifles. Rimfire rifles... are you saying those are designed to kill people?

I agree, that guns were designed with a purpose. I agree that guns make Killing easier. But I cannot agree that "GUNS KILL"

"GUNS KILL" Is a statement made in ignorance.

Ignorance; the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

I HONESTLY BELIEVE that the folks who stand against guns are IGNORANT of the facts. They cannot possibly see the whole picture with all the relevant information. Having once Lived in Maine.. I had ample opportunity to teach, and to train people from all over New England. Including MANY from Mass who Believed, just as Lone does, that there is no place in our society for guns. Thankfully, Once they were more well informed, they DID understand.. Many of them still did not like guns, approve of them, but understanding has a way of making acceptance easier.

Why shouldnt I own a gun I use for pleasure? You Knit.. Arent your knitting needles dangerous? I know many people who own fast cars.. WHY on earth do you need a 900 HP 55 Chevy Bel Air? It is not practical, it has too much power, and it is likely to get you, or someone else killed!!! SOme people like to carve, Some folks like to bake. Some Sew, Some have a woodworking shop, and some keep Honeybees. Those are things they enjoy doing, they are hobbies. MUCH like me owning guns that are NOT designed to kill people. Its all part of the pursuit of happiness AND the 2 amendment.. Its the USA.. or did that change when I wasnt looking?

You CANNOT! SHALL NOT! WILL NOT! EVER... EVER.... EVER Disarm me.. If you do? It will be because this country IS NO MORE.. The reason it was founded is GONE, and that I will die fighting for, so I'll never have to be a sheep, walking around with my head hung down in shame.. bleating sadly while waiting to be sheered by Criminals, or by my own government. If Guns are banned, police officers will be disarmed as well right? I know a LOT of really good cops. I also see headlines every other day from somewhere in this country where a police officer abuses his power. Power corrupts. It is a proven fact. There are those officers out there that will one day give in to that power/corruption. So why take the chance? Disarm them as well. If we have no guns then they have no need of them either.

WE.. are the people who face the criminal element. Suddenly, Surprisingly, and unexpectedly. The PEOPLE, the CITIZENS of this country. NOT police officers. THEY have time to be issued their guns and ammunition when they get the call that we need them. WE THE PEOPLE have no such luxury. We do not have the ability to wait 30 minutes to an hour for the police to arrive at our house during an emergency.. Yes, it DOES take that long here where I live.. In some cases its worse.. "I'm sorry, but we have no officers available to dispatch at this time." So.... what would you have me do if I cannot own a firearm?

There is NO PLACE I cannot get to you. There is NO PLACE safe where you can HIDE from me if I wanted to get you. THE ONLY thing that would deter me from coming after you is knowing you have a gun to protect yourself. I can smash a concrete wall in with my excavator. Yes I own one,, that going to be illegal next? OK, SO I use a truck to smash the wall in.. I can cut steel with my torches. MOST houses today are made with press board and sheetrock... I can get into ANY house constructed of those materials using only my bare hands. NEVER opening a door or window. I can proceed to kick my way through your sheet rock walls from one end of your house to the other... from entry to the last wall in less than seven minutes in most cases. Lone.. do you have anyone you love? Are you married? Do you have a little girl? What would you do to keep them from harm? Or do you feel no responsibility "TO" keep them from harm?

>A gun, no matter how big or small is Sarin Gas, something designed for one reason, to kill people

The design criteria for a handgun is to stop a threat. Not only was killing not the design criteria, but the statistics would bear that out. If you get shot with a handgun you have a 2 out of 3 chance of survival. If you get shot with a shotgun or a rifle you have less than 1 in 20 chance of survival. The shotgun was designed to kill birds and deer. The high powered rifles used by most people for deer hunting were designed to kill people in war and then adapted to killing deer and elk. The design of the "assault rifle" was, again, to wound rather than kill for the specific purpose of tying up more of the enemy taking care of their wounded rather than fighting the war.

The line where I mentioned Sarin, is a serious typo. I am no way meant to say a gun is anything like Sarin gas, but was met it is the exact opposite of Sarin. Sarin is made to kill, a gun has many uses only one of which is to kill something or someone.

Of all places for a typo to occur. I do try to explain my best my interpretations of what's expected of me as a potential gun owner, anyone following my story knows that New Jersey hasn't given me that right yet. Again ugh.

I standby the thinking that anyone with the legal possession of a weapon is responsible to protect the life of their self or others from harm from anyone committing an act that could lead to The maiming or death of innocent people.

The person pulling the gun and bringing on such damage has asked to be killed not to be wounded, not to be told to drop their weapons, but to be killed - and I think criminals should understand that they have signed their own death warrant.

There has been to many incidences where people firing weapons in convenience stores and gas stations and other places, were shot by staff or management and they ran from the building only to return and kill the people who shot them.

An assailant shot in the arm and running from a building does not guarantee that they will not return, it is your job to see that they will not come back and finish the job they started, especially if there is no way to protect yourself from that return attack.

At one time I had said people should be able to collect all the guns they wish just limit the ammunition. Well, our government is doing that as we speak by buying up every single cartridge that they can. Making it nearly impossible for citizens to find affordable ammunition anywhere because the government has manufacturers making ammo 24 seven for whatever purpose they choose in Homeland security.

For people who are capable of paying four times as much as they did prior to this administration, places like GunBroker has ammunition in many of the more common cartridges. And I think eventually things will calm down but like most things prices won't recede much, only availability will increase. As hobbyists shooting guns at paper targets can get very expensive very quickly. For those protecting their home a few boxes of shells may be enough to do the job.

Again I apologize for the error concerning guns and Sarin gas, dictating to my iPhone often makes it harder to catch accidental cut and pasting mistakes and sometimes sentences slip by although they surely were not written as such.

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I introduced a coworker to gunbroker.com today, who was complaining he cant find .45acp fmj cartridges anywhere, - 3 hours later he has 500 rounds coming, I believe 230grain ball (what he was actually looking for) for $180 plus $15 shipping to his door.

He promised me when the time comes I'll get to shoot a few magazines of the Kimber 1911 he bought them for :) Life is good.

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.