Tuesday, November 24, 2015

The Paris attacks was the first shot being fired. The downing of a Russian SU-24 by NATO is the second. I have no doubt that the USA will frantically protest that Turkey, not NATO, is responsible, but when Putin responds, the USA will be treaty-bound to defend Turkey. This is why the Founding Fathers warned against "entangling alliances", as they tend to outsource one's diplomatic and wartime decision-making at the very worst possible times.

A Russian Su-24 fighter has been shot down in Syria, Russian Defense Ministry said, adding the plane hadn’t violated Turkish airspace and was at an altitude of 6,000 meters.

If you haven't read much about the leadup to past world wars, what you should understand is that they never look like anything out of the ordinary at first. However, unlike the previous world wars, this looks like one that will genuinely span the globe, as the jihadists have been permitted to infiltrate every country and nation, from China to Iceland, while China is poised to not only invade Taiwan, but claim the entire South China Sea and spread out across Africa.

About the only place we can expect to escape the global conflict is South America, as La Raza Cósmica is more vicious and more capable than the mujahideen while simultaneously being devoid of any semblance of white guilt or mercy. The jihadists wouldn't last five minutes against the cartels.

As Nicolas Taleb has observed, the one place the immigrants have failed to find any footing in Italy is where the mafias rule.

This doesn't mean that Russia and the USA are going to start shooting at each other immediately, it merely means that another domino has fallen.

Turkmen forces in Syria shot dead the two pilots of a Russian jet downed by Turkish warplanes near the border with Turkey on Tuesday as they descended with parachutes, a deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade told reporters.

"Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air," Alpaslan Celik, a deputy commander in a Syrian Turkmen brigade said near the Syrian village of Yamadi as he held what he said was a piece of a pilot's parachute.

UPDATE II: The news just keeps getting worse. It looks like we know who is supporting ISIS and who is not.

Russian helicopter SHOT DOWN while searching for downed jet

UPDATE III: Putin's response: "A stab in the back by the accomplices of terrorism."

“The loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way.”

“Our aircraft was downed over the territory of Syria, using air-to-air missile from a Turkish F-16. It fell on the Syrian territory 4km from Turkey.”

“Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of Turkey.”

“Today’s tragic event will have significant consequences, including for Russia-Turkish relations ... Instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from Nato to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours.”

“Do they want to make Nato serve ISIS? ... We hope that the international community will find the strength to come together and fight against the common evil.”

UPDATE IV: Yeah, I'll bet Erdogan called an emergency meeting.

Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has called an emergency security meeting involving his top generals, heads of intelligence, Prime Minister Davutoğlu and other senior ministers.

299 Comments:

God bless the Mafia and all Honourable societies with a fear for Jesus Christ. Vox. I'm still shaking my head at the stupidity of using Islam in a proxy war. The quran is blasphemy, end of story. But Vladimir Putin is too sharp to be sucked in by crude provocations. It will be something no-one sees coming. IMHO. Russians have long memories. Afghanistan and Chechnya are still being quietly dealt with.

It makes no sense that Russia would willfully violate Turkey's airspace, as Turkey claims. Especially for it to continue for a full five minutes. Russia is seeking to support Assad, not openly engage with a Nato ally. This strikes more as outright Turkish aggression, especially since Erdogan is so clearly and openly jockeying for war. If so, how could Putin let this stand without a response?

"As Nicolas Taleb has observed, the one place the immigrants have failed to find any footing in Italy is where the mafias rule."

Some time ago (maybe some years by now) you had a post, the specific topic I do not recall, but wherein you mentioned something to the effect that governments will lose control and the "warlord" with the biggest/most guns who can provide protection will rule.(I've searched but cannot for the life of me find that post.)

The Russians do this to us ALL the friggin' time. We have pretty much learned to ignore it because we don't dare shoot them down. It was the first time for Turkey, so they did the beginner mistake. They'll pay.

Obama is a mental head case and what power he can wield is to be used against conservative whites. The "security" establishment are pure anti-Russian so look for them to escalate, and I look for them to finally overcome Obama's timidity on this going forward.

It establishes some things clearly - Turkey is pro-ISIS, yet is under NATO's skirts for some bizarre reason, yet will not become EU. Russia has acted in a restrained manner so far and stuck to its targets - ISIS and rebels.

Over here, govt and press are pro-Turkey on this, the vast majority of commenters online for the Russian position.

Markku,Foxholes and all that. I also realise that by rubbling Raqqua the Russkies are undoubtedly wiping out also the slaves and civilian hostages of the ISIS scum, which is unfortunate, but the Russkies are not doing this in US style ineffective ways. I fully expect them to send i troops after the carpet bombing and literally wipe out ISIS completely. They are sending a message to "terrorists". The immediate ones on the ground (fuck with us and we will wipe you off the Earth) and the more distant commanders (hi Obama, look what happens to your puppets).

You make that comment about the cartels... not two days ago a friend posted on Facebook wall that Brazilians are demonstrably not afraid of the terrorists because the drug lords are way worse than they are.

Tin foil hat theory. Erdogan and Obama are thick as thieves. I wouldn't be surprised if Vlad insulted Obama in some way at the G20 and he put Erdogan up to this. The scary part is considering his love for Erdogan, is he crazy enough to follow through with the invocation of article 5 by Turkey?

Markku,Foxholes and all that. I also realise that by rubbling Raqqua the Russkies are undoubtedly wiping out also the slaves and civilian hostages of the ISIS scum, which is unfortunate, but the Russkies are not doing this in US style ineffective ways. I fully expect them to send in troops after the carpet bombing and literally wipe out ISIS completely. They are sending a message to "terrorists". The immediate ones on the ground (fuck with us and we will wipe you off the Earth) and the more distant commanders (hi Obama, look what happens to your puppets).

So...this sucks. I am watching the diplomatic parts of this start to play out in real time here. Pray nobody invokes article 5. The United States does not need a war against Russia. If the Russians want to dismember Turkey over this we should feel free to stand aside. That may sound gutless but there is nothing for us to gain in this and a whole lot to lose. NATO would be a dead letter but it has been an answer in search of a question for some time now. There are times to fight wars...this would not be one of them, at least for the U.S.

There was an old prophecy about the Rus coming to Constantinople in the end days. I have been wading into old Byzantine end times prophecies lately, and they are at least as interesting as anything the west produces.

On a strategic front, I would love to know what Martin V. thinks about this.

Not sure if you've seen it already, but Russia made a smart move by announcing that the airplane was shot with an Ground-To-Air missile while not in Turkey territory.

I believe that this is a brilliant move in order to prevent NATO involvement, and the US/NATO is quite likely to support this idea instead of backing Turkey, if politiks allow it:

"Hey Turkey, Russia says that someone shot down their plane from the ground whilst doing a sortie over Syria. I know you're mad about them bombing all the Turks in Syrian villages, so don't be so emotional again and take credit where it is not due. Right? RIGHT?"

Obama will do precisely what he is told to do. His spine or lack thereof is not a consideration.

This was an extremely foolish move by the Turks. I don't care if a Russian plane was doing victory rolls over Ankara, the Turks should have held their fire, assumed vodka, and made an official protest. As it is, I doubt the Russians were across the Turkish border.

Markku, I am pretty sure that both Helsinki and Moscow have each other on speed dial, for dealing with little incidents.

James Dale Davison and William (Lord) Rees-Mogg made this point in their excellent book "The Great Reckoning".

As they related: in 1912, in Outer Mongolia, as far from civilisation as one could get, American traders protected their camel trains by a very cheap and effective method; they purchased and flew the Union Jack. Even in Outer Mongolia the locals had learned that to prey on British traders had consequences that were immediate and invariably lethal.

It cost the British at that time approximately 1 million pounds sterling per year to police their Empire.

Fast forward to 1990 and it was costing the Americans approximately 1 billion US dollars PER DAY to police roughly the same Empire, and to fly the US flag in many parts of the world was to invite attack.

People haven't changed. As the late Robert L Kocher observed, fear of messing with you is the only thing some people understand.

ZhukovG, precisely. Better for the Turks to have used this incident to achieve something useful. Shooting a Russian aircraft out of the sky is not useful. If they don't think that the Russians will find a way to make them pay for it they are stupid. But having shot the plane down, the only worse thing they could do would be to try to escalate the situation. Which is what I fully expect them to do. I hope we tell them that they are on their own and invoking article 5 will not get them anything due to their own stupidity.

Good for the Turks, it sounds like some of the commenters in here are saying the Turks have no right to defend their airspace. Is that what you are saying? We do not want to piss of the Russians? The Russians have been doing this for several months now by Turkey and today Turkey called them on it. Good for Turkey, there will be no World War 3 here, the Russians will run their mouths for a bit but do nothing because their military is not really that good and they know it.

Yes, the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and so on were the proximate causes of WW1, but the root cause was that Britain, France, and Germany were spoiling for a fight.

WW2 started because Germany was spoiling for another fight.

So this Russian plane will only be the new Jenkins' Ear if Russia and/or NATO wants it to be. I can't see Obama wanting a direct confrontation with Russia, and I can't see Putin wanting to take on NATO.

If someone less emotionally stable was US President, like John McCain, or Putin was replaced with an exciteable clown in the mould of Krushchev, things would be dicier.

That's assuming some commander out in the field somewhere doesn't go nuts and do something very stupid, and further assuming this isn't all a masterful marketing tie-in for Fallout 4.

Last week Anonymous went after the ISIS websites and took them down. A few years ago they tried the same thing wit the Cartels and several members of Anonymous got emails with their home addresses warning them to stop. The Cartel can hire better Hackers.

@Steve DNMSo this Russian plane will only be the new Jenkins' Ear if Russia and/or NATO wants it to be. I can't see Obama wanting a direct confrontation with Russia, and I can't see Putin wanting to take on NATO.

...then why has the media spin in the US been about how Putin = Hitler for the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the establishment is spoiling for a fight.

@48tl;dr: If Obama wants it to happen, he'll make up some bullshit reason and evidence and force us to go.

I'm amending this to say, all that needs to happen is a general thought that it was defensive, whether or not it technically is. Rhetorically defensive, not dialectically defensive. And it seems to me that there is a search for the right rhetoric that makes the US go into war with Russia while being the "good guys".

While this further demonstrates that Erdogan is an idiot, after looking at the claimed flight path I have to take some satisfaction given what the Soviets did to KAL 007 (they shot it down after it had exited their airspace).

Student - then why has the media spin in the US been about how Putin = Hitler for the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the establishment is spoiling for a fight.

The media establishment, sure. Because gay rights, or something.

Even so, it's nothing compared to the monstering of Slobodan Milosevic or the drumbeat against Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gadaffi, or Bashar al-Assad.

Putin's treatment by the Western press is somewhere between Pope Benedict XVI and Sarah Palin.

I reckon the US political establishment has no appetite for WW3. Because why would they? They just want their colour coded revolutions and proxies to do the dirty work for them. They'd love to replace Putin with somebody more pliable, but wishes aren't ICBM's.

You sure about Italy? I was there this summer and you couldn't walk five feet without hitting a young African male trying to shake you down by selling you a selfie stick, watch of phone charger. Larger city, small town, it didn't matter--they were everywhere. That was before the boats started coming and before the invasion started. Italy may not be getting hit as hard but it was sure beginning to not feel like any Italy I have visited before.

Airspace violations are rare, but not unheard of. They're considered extremely bad manners (as in the pilot's superiors will ground him for a long time), but it's equally rude to shoot down someone unless it's truly egregious.

"NATO will probably wash its hands of this one." Then disband NATO, they did not shoot the jet down for the hell of it, the Russians had been doing this for several months now. Do not assume the Russians were honorable here, they were arrogant and disregarded Turkish warnings of what would happen if it continued. Turkey called them on it and at least one pilot paid for it with his life. Starting to see reports that a helo may have been shot down as well. Russian body count is rising, the black tulip flies again.

For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?

@ 49. Skylark Thibedeau

Last week Anonymous went after the ISIS websites and took them down. A few years ago they tried the same thing wit the Cartels and several members of Anonymous got emails with their home addresses warning them to stop. The Cartel can hire better Hackers.

Just wait until Islamic State gets Ahmed involved. Anonymous has nothing on Clock Boy. He trolled the president.

@Steve DNMPutin's treatment by the Western press is somewhere between Pope Benedict XVI and Sarah Palin.

They've been trying to demonize Putin in order to justify a war. The rhetorical charges haven't been quite sticking, so hence the wishy washy back-and-forth.

I think it's because it was so easy to demonize them (Hussein, et al), that the US felt confident they could sway the public to war, and so went ahead and did so.

Why would US establishment want to go to war anyway? I'm chalking it up to that mistaken belief that going to war in a foreign country = good for your economy. In addition, the rainbow brigade would like to enforce Gay-Sharia Law in as many countries as they can, which would happen quickest by force, the upper brass in the military get promoted far faster and get a bigger budget in war, and Obama gets to stop Russia from killing his Muslim brothers.

But it won't be fed to us that way. It will be fed as the evil anti-gay leader who stole land from Ukraine and Georgia, our valiant allies, and who now seeks to help Assad... who is actually the leader of ISIS... and did I mention that he kills the gays?

The neo-cons will leave out most of the gay stuff and replace it with more Crimea, Russia monopolizing global power in the strategic oil area, and we have to fight there to avoid fighting here.

Also, NATO Commitments! NATO is double-plus important for neo-cons, because it lets them play the "once the USSR, always the USSR" card.

There'd be less support than a decade ago, but that's balanced with the fact that democracy doesn't mean shit anymore. They'd have 'enough' support.

My neocon friends/family will either remain ignorant of this, or twist it to mean that Putin is Hitler and we need WWIII because Carly/Rubio/Bush/McCain/Christie said so.

Me? This absolutely chills me to the bone.

I've had to learn a lot over the years. Swallow some hard red pills. But one thing I understood when the Soviet Union dissolved: with the Soviet threat gone the U.S. needed to disband or exit NATO. Absent the Soviets NATO was not security, it was a major threat to peace and stability.

Nope. We ran NATO right up to Russia's front door while screaming "neener neener neeeeener!" like a damn child.

@65: I'm in America, in a part that was purchased from Russia. If Russia were definitely Christian, definitely not. But I definitely can't see that Russia is definitely a Christian state. On the other hand, any war in support of any mohammedans will never have my support.

Word here in Washington is that NATO is meeting on a emergency basis in Brussels this afternoon at Turkey's request. Let us hope that cool heads prevail.

The world of USG business aside, I cannot imagine any scenario under which the American people would support a war against Russia other than an overt invasion by Russia of the "core" NATO states, which definitely does not include Turkey.

"Treaty-bound to defend Turkey" does not mean what you think it means. Sending 50 military lawyers as our contribution to their defense is just as much compliant as sending every adult male capable of bearing arms.

It makes perfect sense, not only does Russia violate other countries' airspace as a matter of routine, they've violated Turkey's airspace before and were warned of what would happen if they did it again. In this particular case it's even more complicated because Turkey and Syria have a border dispute so what constitutes "Turkish airspace" is not the same on both countries' maps.

This was an extremely foolish move by the Turks. I don't care if a Russian plane was doing victory rolls over Ankara, the Turks should have held their fire, assumed vodka, and made an official protest.

Talk about compounding the error: "Turkmen forces in Syria shot dead the two pilots of a Russian jet downed by Turkish warplanes near the border with Turkey on Tuesday as they descended with parachutes, a deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade told reporters."

Because we don't CARE about shooting them down. Heck, give them landing and port visitation permits. Let their sailors and pilots get drunk in our bars while our fuel techs refuel their planes and ships. There is no cold war. We were against the Russians because they were communists, not because they were Russian. Now they aren't communists, our own government is.

According to Yevseyev, if such an incident happens again, Russia will proceed to taking retaliatory measures against Turkish interceptor aircraft. In addition, Russia may extend the range of air defense in Syria to be able to intercept Turkish military aircraft that reportedly invade the airspace of Syria periodically.

"If Turkey continues its provocative actions, it is highly probable that incidents of this kind may happen again, albeit to Turkish aircraft. If Turkey takes no measures to prevent this kind of incident in the future - there are such agreements between Russia and the United States - then Turkey can expect a very tough response," said Vladimir Yevseyev.

Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it. Good for the Turks and the Ukrainians too, they stood up to them when nobody else would. The Russians are not going to be able to do much about it, except gnash their teeth or maybe bait the Turkish Air Force into a trap of some sort ( ie escort bombers into Turkish air space, etc.). The Russians are not stupid, the maybe arrogant they do not want a shooting war with NATO or Turkey.

Turkey has been mainly using their bombing raids into Iraq to hit Kurds, not ISIS. Turkey supports anti-Assad forces. Russia used some of their bombing raids against Syrian rebels, not ISIS. Turkey shoots down a Russian jet. Turkey is increasingly a radical Islamic state thanks to democracy. Let's make things real interesting and have CIA help Golden Dawn take over Greece.

Looks like they really stepped in the shit this time. The only way to avoid a global war now is for NATO to do to Turkey what was done to Georgia: disavow any aggression as the act of single a single nation and stand back as Russia levels them.

Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it.

Russia isn't the problem. Both the global jihad and the US government are bigger problems.

@92 Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it.

What do the Russians do? Bomb Muslims? Why would I want to "stand up" to them for that? Hell, I would probably donate money to them if they had a Kickstarter.

"Let the Russians fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" is a nice upgrade to the original neocon strategy. And given Russian brutality, it might even work!

To the point at hand: did the Su-24 actually violate their airspace? If so, did it immediately and peacefully leave? Because unless it was setting up for a bombing run or locking missile radar on a Turkish jet, Turkey's response was excessive and dangerous. I was a child at the time, but I'm old enough to remember the Soviets shooting down a wayward airliner that was leaving. It was wrong for them and it's wrong for Turkey.

If that plane never did violate Turkish airspace then God help them, because they have ZERO excuse for an act of naked aggression against a nuclear power.

And Turkey "standing up to" Russia is all in the name of jihadis. Explain to me please why the hell Turkey is our alley and not Russia given the global situation, if you can do so without using the words "new Hitler."

The Russians are not stupid, the maybe arrogant they do not want a shooting war with NATO or Turkey.

Given the current president of the United States if Putin was really Hitler he would be marching troops into Alaska as we speak.

The US Regime currently exists because of Leftist proponents, online and offline, who helped sabotage Operation Iraqi Freedom, which was supposed to have several strategic leverages inside the Middle East. Something which Russia also has in the part of a weaker Syria.

By allowing the Leftist alliance to gain power by sabotaging wars like Vietnam or Iraq, whether started by Democrats or not, the United States and Russia will go on an inevitable course to the world's fate.

4th gen warfare does not advocate frontal assaults smashing yourself against the superpowers, but the Leftist alliance has outplayed the world with their anti Vietnam and anti Iraq propaganda before. And they will do so again, even if that means supporting Turkey, the Caliphate, or Islamic Jihad.

If people wanted things to take a different turn, only two wars in the US had the possibility of breaking the Left's power stranglehold: Vietnam and Iraq. Ironically, no matter how much money people have online or how many followers, you can't buy time.

"Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it."

I am amazed that you were able to stop licking the window long enough to bang this out with two fingers.

If you want an idea of how many, maybe most, will respond, read Stephen's posts.

It is doubtful that any of us will know if the plane violated Turkish airspace. We can't trust anything released by any government. But we do know without dispute that when the plane was shot down it was in Syria and returning to its base. The pilots parachuted into Syria.

@111 DT regardless of the imbecile in the oval office, the Russians are not that good dude.

I would love to hear Vox comment on the implication in your post that idiocy in command has no real bearing on the outcome of war.

I would also like you to answer this question: should a nation shoot down another nation's fighter for an airspace violation when said fighter has already left and made no aggressive moves during the violation?

Just another power monger overplaying his hand, version #10326, but NATO membership alters their decision calculus in dangerous ways. And now we have improvident alliances and treaties being administered and weighed by compromised, ahistorical, arrogant neocons.

"Operation Iraqi Freedom was pretty much doomed to fail from the beginning regardless, because Arabs gonna Arab. No conspiracy-theory-level-powerful Leftist Alliance required."

@113

That depends on what you think the strategy was about.

1. Removing WMD proliferation from terrorist hands to ensure American homeland isn't attacked from 2003-2008. The number of terrorist attacks and cells in the US, who failed to be captured or stopped, went up during the anti iraq regime that is Hussein Obola. Ft Hood 1 and Nidal Hasan is a good starting point. WMD proliferation was slowed, but not stopped, which is why the Democrats that sabotaged Iraq to get more Americans killed, released funding to Iran, to help them along.

2. Having secular locals and Kurds and Shia/Sunnis in Iraq to fight terrorists is a better population stop gap than trying to fight terrorists by stopping them inside Europe, Canada, or the US. So long as the fight is isolated there, every single AQ mastermind will either get killed or intel will be captured so that the cells in the US are exposed. Which is why the FBI captured several operations in the US before they were completed. The other operations during Bush II was stopped by civilians.

3. The third strategic leverage would be COIN and increasing military efficiency, which Hussein and the Democrats cracked open by destroying the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force, and the Army at the same time using diversity. COIN in the military or non military sense, would be extremely effective against Democrat fiefdoms in the US, to liberate the oppressed. For obvious reasons, no slave owner in the US wants that kind of experience and knowledge to get out, especially in the US military full of patriots.

If what people wanted was a short victorious war, find some WMDs, and declare that they have "won", then they lost the war before it was even begun. But the game plan is very similar to Vietnam. People thought the Vietnamese "lost" Vietnam as well, or that was it unwinnable by the US. The US was fighting the Leftist alliance inside the US and the communists outside the US, and the Soviets training the communists outside the US, at the same time. Asymmetrical fights are difficult to win, because US patriots weren't allowed to bomb John Kerry and Jane Hanoi, though if they did it would have helped the US side of the war.

Back to Turkey. People probably don't remember this, because they were paying attention to CNN at the time, but OIF was supposed to have two fronts, one from Turkey into Kurdistan to link up with allied forces there to push directly from the north and another from Kuwaitt, the same place used by Norman Schwarz in Desert Storm 1.

The Turks waited until the last moment to go back on whatever agreement people thought they had. They clearly did not want the United States to have an ally as large as Iraq at their backdoor, given what it would mean for the training of the Kurds.

Turkey has been operating more actively lately, especially with the increase in the invasion of Europe with their fake passports and re routing of "Syrians".

If America is not going to fight in the Middle East or invade it, then Russia will be forced to do so. If not Russia, then China. If nobody is left, then the Left will setup a World War III. But WWIII was being setup before 2001 even happened, way before Vox Day got kicked off the SFWA reservation, or I like to call it a plantation but given Vox Day's noted origins the reservation is a better descriptor.

@117"A) Kick Turkey out of NATO.

B) Align with Russia completely.

C) merrily commence to stomping whatever ass needs stomped."

I doubt the Democrat regime that wants their slave plantations back in the 21st century, is going to do that. They will do another Waco however, Waco 3 this time perhaps, with a goal of killing more patriots.

Gee, who do I trust less? Erdogan or Putin? Putin's fairly ruthless, but has been quite clear in signalling his intentions. They are pretty tough for his European neighbors, but that's not the same as saying they are anti-US.

Putin stated that Turkey's shooting down of the Russian aircraft was a "stab in the back." Was there an informal agreement relating to actions against ISIS/L?

According to what I have seen elsewhere, the fly-over of Turkey (if there was one) lasted between 5 and 10 seconds. Turkey claims control of the airspace in Syria to 10K.

I expect an Adlai Stevenson like presentation at the UN by Russia, showing the evidence against countries that are funding ISIS/L. Those countries, therefore, are states sponsoring terrorists/terrorism and are subject to retaliatory action ... under UN charter.

We found in that... earlier unfortunate time with Soviets that many of these violations were simply because the Russian pilots were absolutely shitfaced and had no idea where they were flying. Wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't still the case.

This is why we need President Trump. He's the only candidate that seems to understand that Russia is our best ally against ISIS. Listening to Fiona's hate boner for Putin turns my stomach. Letting Russia do our fighting for us while hand-waving our condemnation for their tactics is the absolute best play available.

Also @33, do you have any good links to Byzantine end times prophecy? I'd love to peruse.

It seems that Russia has called for an emergency security council meeting of the UN.Some in the Russian Dumas have begun to call for breaking diplomatic ties with Turkey and that Russian citizens be evacuated from Turkey.

"I remember quite clearly the stated goal was to establish a bastion of democracy in the Middle East."@127Bush II's stated goal, but not every American had the same idea. I certainly did not see it in those terms. "Democracy" was the spiel given to the voters, because democracy was what they were used to. I think democracy is a poison that will either kill the host or make them stronger if they build up a tolerance to it.

I doubt all those authors Vox Day puts up on a list, S Lind and Tom Kratman, would see democracy as meaning a viable military strategy. It's a political strategy of people living in a democracy that is turning into an oligarchy, and already has.

Democracy is just a justification for totalitarian tyranny in the end. It's useful for managing the public though. The slaves that think they are free will eat it up.

On the topic of Russia again, they've probably figured out by now that the US Regime is using a Soviet trick against them. Or rather, the same trick used in Afghanistan by the US against the Soviets, similar to the Soviet proxy war in Vietnam. The Soviets and the US didn't want to attack each other at the time, so they funded and armed their own population (communists vs democratic forces) in North and South Vietnam. The Soviets lost in Afghanistan when the US armed the Northern Coalition and other tribal leaders with anti air missiles.

The Soviet KGB infiltration of America succeeded beyond their wildest imaginations. Even though Soviet Russia and KGB has fallen, their weapon, the Left, which they created and controlled in the US, now controls the US. So now Russia is fighting a more and more direct war in the ME, against local forces funded and trained by the US and other countries.

It's like a role reversal. The US is now the Evil Empire and the Empire of Democrat slavery, while Russia is fighting for the Orthodox Christians against Muslims. Russians probably felt it was natural for the US to get one up on the Soviets by launching the Afghan resistance program. Now they're in the role of world peace enforcer up against an Evil Empire, the same position Americans have been in in the last century.

Stephen Davenport,Your intense ignorance, stupidy and 'murica verbal diarreha clearly shows you really haven't got even a hint of a clue. Are you really new here and slow, or truly mentally retarded and willfully ignorant?

This is ugly business. Based on the map the Daily Mail is showing, which they claim uses the data from Turkey, the assertion that the Russian jet was warned for five minutes to get out of Turkish airspace seems suspect. The narrow strip of Turkey the Turks claim the Russian jet crossed is maybe 2 miles wide. At 60 mph that would take two minutes, and of course the Russian jet can't fly nearly that slow. Check out the map here to see what I mean: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html

Where'd you get the idea muslim immigrants have no foothold "where the mafias rule"? My siciluan friend tells me that his village, Siculiana, now has 4000 muslim squatters, I.e. twice the native population, and the folks are told there's nothing that can be done about it.

media spin in the US been about how Putin = Hitler for the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the establishment is spoiling for a fight.

Lamestream has only picked up the story at noon. Both the Boston marathon moslems and the Oregon college shooter were on Putin's naughty moooslem list. Putin produced a list of G20 nations that contributed to IS IS that lame stream ignored.

Putin please just take out Obama and Biden, there will be no hard feelings. If you must, please use a neutron or fuel air bomb on NYC,DC, Baltimore, St Louis, Atlanta & Chicago so we can keep the nice buildings.

Putin please just take out Obama and Biden, there will be no hard feelings. If you must, please use a neutron or fuel air bomb on NYC,DC, Baltimore, St Louis, Atlanta & Chicago so we can keep the nice buildings.---

Yipes, I hope they don't invade Were-Puppy air space until I can escape the Atlanta area.

@173 Nate November 24, 2015 12:43 PM"For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?"

No.

No I do not.

I think you are correct Nate ... Americans will never support a war against Russian on behalf of islam.

What will be interesting/telling is what OCrapya will do ...

Support NATO by what appears to be a contrived conflict by Turkey's President with Russia or support Russia against ISIS?

Based on what has been reported ... Turkey shoots Russian plane down, Turkish Commander admits killing Russian pilots still under silk, Turkey shoots down Russian rescue helicopter searching for downed plane and potential rescue of pilots ... I agree with the assessment that Turkey is a muslim/islamic/terrorist accomplice.

There is talk that nothing will come of this; there is talk that whether the pilots are dead or alive, they will be "secured" by the Turkish government and "returned unharmed" to Russia as a way to de-escalate all of this.

41. Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 7:50 AM Good for the Turks, it sounds like some of the commenters in here are saying the Turks have no right to defend their airspace. Is that what you are saying? We do not want to piss of the Russians? The Russians have been doing this for several months now by Turkey and today Turkey called them on it. Good for Turkey, there will be no World War 3 here, the Russians will run their mouths for a bit but do nothing because their military is not really that good and they know it.

47. Skylark Thibedeau November 24, 2015 8:15 AM Time to start calling Istanbul Constantinople again. There is no Anglo American Balance of Power force to stop Russia from finally acheving her dream of Warm Water access to the Mediterranean Sea.

"Turkey shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border on Tuesday, saying the jet had repeatedly violated its air space, in one of the most serious publicly acknowledged clashes between a NATO member country and Russia for half a century.....

"The Turkish military said the aircraft had been warned 10 times in the space of five minutes about violating Turkish air space. Officials said a second plane had also approached the border and been warned."

Note: Turkmen is not Turkish - Separate footage from Turkey's Anadolu Agency showed two pilots parachuting out of the jet before it crashed. A deputy commander of rebel Turkmen forces in Syria said his men shot both pilots dead as they came down.

77. Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 9:42 AM For the Scuzzman, last I saw the US are are part of NATO, Russia is not. We also did not want the Russians involved there for exactly this reason. Crack open a book, son.

I think the last time Western Powers intervened on Turkey's behalf against Russia we got the great adventure known as the Crimean War. "Half a league, half a league, half a league onward!"

Crack open a book indeed. NATO is like an old minefield from a bygone war: it serves no purpose now, and as long as it remains you might just step in it and blow yourself up.

Turk membership in NATO has been a complete joke from 1952 until, according to you, today. You think Ankara gives half a damn about what happens to ANY member state of NATO? I mean they used their NATO troops to invade Cyprus, and island of Greeks (their NATO "ally") garrisoned by British troops (their NATO "ally").

The released radar flight path that Turkey alleges to show the transgression does not show Turkey's aircraft at from where the shot(s) was fired.

Let me spell it out for you. Turkey has claimed control of Syrian airspace of 10K from Turkey's border. They can warn all they want but, were the warnings made while Russian aircraft was within Syria's borders? If indeed the Russian aircraft flew over that tract of Turkey's airspace, did the Russians do it as part of an agreement, as seems it seems given Putin's language?

The warnings would have started before entering airspace. Plus any objective analysis clarly show the Russians looping several times through Turkish airspace. Russian arrogance has caused much suffering throughout their history. This is just one more instance of this arrogance.