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Topic: What do you think about the mythist theory about Jesus ? (Read 2113 times)

This theory say that Jesus never existed.I suppose that this is possible why ?

1.Why we don't have the report about his judgement by "Pontius Pilate" ?2.Why only a historian wrote about Jesus and the source is not very reliable ? (I spoke about Josephus who was a historian).3.Why Jesus has similar things with others religious characters (Buddha , Horus , Krishna etc...) ? I have two explications this is Satan who inspirated the writers about stories of Horus , Krishna etc... or all these stories was wrote by humans.4.In this decade there are a lot of cults like the Essenians , maybe that Christianity is the only sect of these movements who survived ?5.Why all these contradictions (maybe that I don't know use the correlation) and mistakes with the official history in the four gospels ?

3.Why Jesus has similar things with others religious characters (Buddha , Horus , Krishna etc...) ? I have two explications this is Satan who inspirated the writers about stories of Horus , Krishna etc... or all these stories was wrote by humans.

I think pianodwarf first posted this.....

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Do you mean the Jesus who healed the sick and even raised the dead? Where the former paralysed walked again, the blind could miraculously see again, and the deaf could listen and the mute speak after the Master's gentle touch? But he did not only heal the body, he also healed the soul. They called him Saviour and Redeemer, and he healed both rich and poor, men and women, young and old, slaves and free men, friends and enemies. In one occasion a paralysed man was brough to him in his bed, and took his bed and left walking after the Saviour had touched him. What was this Saviour's name?

Who was born by a mortal virgin mother and had a divine Father, and was known as the "Saviour of the world"? Before he was born his parents wandered to a bigger town, and prophets had foretold his birth and that he would be a king. This instigated a search for the infant Saviour by a leading figure who wanted to kill him. After growing up the Son of God was shown all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain. He also walked on water and when he met his end his mother and his favorite disciple stood by him. He then tells his mother: "Do not cry, I'm going to heaven". When he dies he utter: "It is finished" and the earth trembles and darkness cover the land. Then he ascended to heaven, and his greatest achievement was to conquer death.

We all of course know the Redeemer who was no figure of pagan Greek polytheism. He was the true saviour who wanted to help and save the sinful humans, by sacrificing himself. But he was willing to do this, out of love, pity and compassion for the humans.

Now, who was the real Son of God, born by a mortal virgin mother, and often presented as the venerated newborn infant, or depicted riding a donkey? He healed the sick and did numerous wonders, among those making fine wine from plain water. He was killed but resurrected from the dead and became immortal. The followers of this god often ate a holy meal in a kind of sacramental union with the deity to achieve immortality after their death. One of this god's finest achievements was his death, his sacrifice, which delivers the whole human kind.

Who is the "Light of the World", the One, the God who defeated death? Born of a virgin mother, considered the first true king by the people, who rose from the grave and ascended to heaven. He defeated death, and must be considered the single true God.

Now, the real God often called the "Light of the world", "The good shepherd", "The lamb" and is "…the way, the truth, and the life". Identified with a cross. Who could that be?

Horus, (the son of Osiris).-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original "Light of the world" was the mediator between God and man and was born on the 25th of December. Local shepherds witnessed his birth and gave him gifts. He had 12 disciples, and when his work was done on earth he gathered together to a last supper, and then ascended to heaven. At doomsday he will return to pass judgment on both the living and the dead. The righteous will go to heaven and the sinful will be killed in a giant fire. Sunday is his holy day, and this religion gave us the seven days of the week. His followers called each other "brothers" and their leaders "fathers". They practiced baptism and established a sacred meal ritual, where flesh and blood was symbolically consumed by initiates. Above earth was heaven, and below the dark, hell, with demons and the sinners.

Wise men were led to his birth by a star, and his conception was miraculous. After his birth the ruler in the area wanted him dead and started a hunt for the child. But his parents were warned by a heavenly messenger who told them to escape over the river with the holy child. Here, he was met by shepherds. The boy grew up and did many great deeds, and was the mediator between God and man.

Who then, was the god whose mother was told by an angel that she would give birth to a holy child destined to be a saviour? Even as a child he instructed the priests in the temple in religous matters, while his parents were looking for him. He started his religious career when he was (circa) 30 years of age, and surrounded himself with 12 disciples. One of the disciples is his favorite another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around talking in parables and metaphors. This God called himself "Son of Man" and was referred to as "Prophet", "Master" and "Lord". He did many great wonders and healed the sick, blind could see again and deaf hear. He also walked on water. When one of his disciples tried to do the same, he started to sink - his faith was not strong enough.

This saviour cannot be mistaken for any other. He performed countless miracles on earth, miracles well attested to by bystanders. He healed the sick and the crippled, restored sight to the blind, cast out demons, and even raised the dead! His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. While still a child, he exhibited extraordinary knowledge of religious scripture. He reformed the corrupt and worldly religions of his day. He was crucified, rose from the tomb and appeared to his disciples to prove to them his power over death, after which he ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as "the Son of God!" His message is of love and compassion.

And there is of course the god-man, the prophet, the founder of a great monotheistic religion that still exist today. He preached that there was only one true god, and his teachings focused on the eternal fight between good and evil. The teachings include the idea of the saviour will wake the dead and pass judgment on all. The righteous ones goes to paradise and the sinful straight to a burning hell. The very word of Paradise stems from this religion. This semigod started his career in his early thirties, and had a following of disciples. As a band of monks they wandered around, preaching their religion. He was eventually killed and sent to heaven.

The problem for Jesus is that all these deities are much older than him. You don't have to be very bright to see where the authors of the gospels got their "devine inspiration" when they created the Jewish version of the popular God-Man/ World-Saviour of antiquity.

3.Why Jesus has similar things with others religious characters (Buddha , Horus , Krishna etc...) ? I have two explications this is Satan who inspirated the writers about stories of Horus , Krishna etc... or all these stories was wrote by humans.

I think pianodwarf first posted this.....

No, I'm afraid I can't take credit for that one. I wish I could. It's flattering to be regarded as being capable of it, though.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

For me there was no Jesus of Nazareth. I believe he was just invented from all of the previous "Saviours".

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People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University

The original "Light of the world" was the mediator between God and man and was born on the 25th of December. Local shepherds witnessed his birth and gave him gifts. He had 12 disciples, and when his work was done on earth he gathered together to a last supper, and then ascended to heaven. At doomsday he will return to pass judgment on both the living and the dead. The righteous will go to heaven and the sinful will be killed in a giant fire. Sunday is his holy day, and this religion gave us the seven days of the week. His followers called each other "brothers" and their leaders "fathers". They practiced baptism and established a sacred meal ritual, where flesh and blood was symbolically consumed by initiates. Above earth was heaven, and below the dark, hell, with demons and the sinners.

The 'Light of the World' is of course the sungod Mithra.

I read that one of the reasons the Romans were willing to accept Christianity is because it took on the guise of Mithraism. That is to say, it stopped being this weird cult following and was just something they were already familiar with.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

As someone who doesn't believe in the christian god (or any others I've heard of), I don't really care whether Jesus actually existed. If he did, he was just another wandering preacher. All claims of magic simply make me shake my head at the gullibility of the human race. We've seen how religions spring up and ossify within very short periods of time (JW, Scientology, etc), and we've seen how splintered an old religion becomes as people put their own spin on things (30,000 + christian sects). To believe that any of them have things right simply stretches probability into the realm of the ridiculous.

There has never been any evidence for a biblical jesus person ever living. This link will take you to several others I've posted over the years, the gospels are covered, other ancient writings are covered, claiming the bible as an historical document, is also covered, etc.. link/links to the lack of evidence, for a historical jesus.

The resurrection of christ never happened, (pure BS), christianity is a mishmash of much older religions as posted above, and below is a list of other writers (apart from the ones in the above links) around at the time of this alleged christ, that wrote nothing whatsoever about him.

Some even walked the same paths, but heard and wrote nothing.

Philo Judaeus lived in Alexandria, he spent time in Jerusalem and had family there during the times of Jesus. He wrote many books about the Jews and their religion and history. He developed the themes of the Logos and the Holy Spirit.No mention of Jesus or the Gospel events.Valerius Maximus wrote historical anecdotes c.30CENo mention of Jesus or the Gospel events.Marcus Manilius wrote on astrology/astronomy in Rome early 1st century.No mention of Jesus or the Gospel events.

Writers from shortly after Jesus time:Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.Petronius Arbiter wrote the Satyricon in Rome.C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome.Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote several satires in Rome.Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome.Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy.Geminus wrote on astronomy in Greece.Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia.Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of the Kings of the Jews shortly after the time of Jesus, and from the same region - his works are now lost, but Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople wrote in the 8th Century: ''Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias, entitled A Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by Justus of Tiberias. He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod and the last of the Kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, when the history ends. Justus' style is very concise and he omits a great deal that is of utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by Him. His father was a Jew named Pistus; Justus himself, according to Josephus, was one of the most abandoned of men, a slave to vice and greed. He was a political opponent of Josephus, against whom he is said to have concocted several plots; but Josephus, although on several occasions he had his enemy in his power, only chastised him with words and let him go ... "Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) wrote a large Natural History in Rome.Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) was the dominant Roman Orator of the times (his works show Stoic and Cynic ideas), and wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome - his many speeches are lost.Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome.NONE of these early writers even MENTIONED Jesus or the Gospel events.Only AFTER the Gospels became known in mid 2nd century (LONG long after the alleged events) did anyone mention Jesus.There are about 50 writers from the 1st century - NONE of them mention Jesus.But,they DO mention many HUNDREDS, maybe even THOUSANDS of characters in their books - including minor nobodies like servants and family, un-important names mentioned once in passing.But NOTHING about Jesus - who must have been LESS important, LESS known, LESS notable than the most minor nobody.

I've mentioned this before as well, but we have got postcards surviving from that era, the Vindolanda Tablets. They talk about party invitations, send birthday wishes, and tell them that socks and pants are on the way.

Quote

"... I have sent (?) you ... pairs of socks from Sattua, two pairs of sandals and two pairs of underpants, two pairs of sandals ... "

Quote

"Claudia Severa to her Lepidina greetings. On 11 September, sister, for the day of the celebration of my birthday, I give you a warm invitation to make sure that you come to us, to make the day more enjoyable for me by your arrival, if you are present (?). Give my greetings to your Cerialis. My Aelius and my little son send him (?) their greetings....."

Trivia, in other words. Romans were ready and able to send little postcards discussing the banalest detail of their lives.

And yet - curiously - there is not ONE postcards saying something like "great commotion in Jerusalem today when all the dead started walking!". Not ONE postcard saying "I listened to the preacher Jesus today and he fed thousands of us with just a couple of fish". Indeed, not ONE postcard mentioning Jesus at all.

So it's not just the great writers that don't mention him at all. The general citizenry never thought to give him the slightest mention either, and this guy was the equivalent of Harry Houdini and Karl Marx rolled in to one - a doer of great magics who wanted to tear down the system and build a new one.

So for there to be NOTHING about him speaks volumes to me about his lack of actual existence.

The original "Light of the world" was the mediator between God and man and was born on the 25th of December. Local shepherds witnessed his birth and gave him gifts. He had 12 disciples, and when his work was done on earth he gathered together to a last supper, and then ascended to heaven. At doomsday he will return to pass judgment on both the living and the dead. The righteous will go to heaven and the sinful will be killed in a giant fire. Sunday is his holy day, and this religion gave us the seven days of the week. His followers called each other "brothers" and their leaders "fathers". They practiced baptism and established a sacred meal ritual, where flesh and blood was symbolically consumed by initiates. Above earth was heaven, and below the dark, hell, with demons and the sinners.

The 'Light of the World' is of course the sungod Mithra.

I read that one of the reasons the Romans were willing to accept Christianity is because it took on the guise of Mithraism. That is to say, it stopped being this weird cult following and was just something they were already familiar with.

I've read about that as well. Also a lot of the army were devotees of mithras and back then whoever had the army on their side was generally the one in power.

EDIT: Here is a video that includes information not covered in the first, evidence that the Gospels were carefully crafted as literature from the ground up, rather than representing collections of oral traditions and legendary embellishments cobbled together in an effort to record history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILldt2XHZw0 With this one, you need to start in at 27:48 in order to bypass club-meeting stuff from the group hosting his talk. Carrier points to "chiastic" structure of the Gospel narratives, in which events in the first half of the story are designed to mirror events in the second half of the story in order to reinforce the allegorical and symbolic meanings.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 06:00:17 AM by kcrady »

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"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

The resurrection of christ never happened, (pure BS), christianity is a mishmash of much older religions as posted above, and below is a list of other writers (apart from the ones in the above links) around at the time of this alleged christ, that wrote nothing whatsoever about him.

Re the crucifixion/resurrection It might have been in the hyam maccoby book (i'm not sure though) where it was suggested that as the day after the crucifixion was a jewish holy day the roman governor, fearing riots, ordered the condemned to be taken down at sunset. crucifixion can take quite a while to kill so it is postulated that when the condemned were taken down they were still alive. This allowed the authors of the NT to seize upon the "crucified man seen alive" headline and peddle a resurrection myth.

edit; sorry I should have made this clear, the crucified were taken down because of fears of civil unrest NOT because they had died

Wow guys, this is incredible! There's a ton of information here, and most of it is completely new to me. I've never bothered to do any research on this topic for any number of reasons, but since you were all kind enough to provide so many resources, I think I'll have to read up a bit. Thanks!

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

It is not a mythicist theory that jesus did not exist; instead it is theory that he didexist.

The burden of proof lies with those who believe the jesus of the bible was a real person. There is no necessity for anyone to prove he didn't.

Furthermore, even if it could be proven that someone called Jesus did exist it would also be necessary to prove his supernatural nature and parentage and that his paternity was down to the Abrahamic god and not, for example, Zeus.

@ALL If you have an interest about the mythist theory read the canonical gospels (Matthew , Mark , Luke , John) and see the historical mistakes (It's necessary to know the official history).Help to read the Gospels:1.The gospels of Matthew , Mark and Luke are named synoptic gospels if you want to know why ?[wiki]Synoptic Gospels[/wiki]2.If you know the Greek language you can read the "codex sinaiticus".[wiki]Codex Sinaiticus[/wiki]Link to this uncial : http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx3.If you will a translation in English language read these five versions [Those who I prefer](King James Version , Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition , Wycliffe Bible , Darby Translation , Orthodox Jewish Bible).Link : http://www.biblegateway.com/

A citation to finish this post : If a person wish discover the truth , this person must analyse all documents available.

I'm interested in his statement at 16:19, that Philo of Alexandria mentions angel Jesus, because most googling turns up that Philo never mentioned Jesus. I'm going to have to go to hsi book, to find the refs, so it says.

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

I read around pp250 of Carrier's book, re Philo, and it talks about speculation about the character of the messiah, based on Zechariah. His lecture gives the impression that there was this guy called Jesus that people had some mythic religion around. I don't know how this could really be possible, since Jesus is a made up Greek name.

Carrier does start his book, explaining that it's targeted at JP Holding, and that he is a "Dark Horse", who just makes stuff up.

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Once you take into account that an all-powerful God can do anything, there's no point to say, "Hey! Wait! Dead people don't rise!"

Yeah obviously they don't, but with God's all-powerful help, they can rise extremely easily.

It's just as silly when people ask, "Where did the water for the flood come from and where did it go?" This question is asked as if it's impossible for God to just make the water disappear without a trace.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Of course we all owe it to ourselves to watch the movie Zietgeist. Here is an explanation of the death and resurrection myth as being a mnemonic for the passage of the seasons. It is laughable that this annual "Death" of the sun has morphed into a religion that people die for. After several viewings any residual faith I had in the unique and proper "faith of my father" vanished.

Once you take into account that an all-powerful God can do anything, there's no point to say, "Hey! Wait! Dead people don't rise!"

Yeah obviously they don't, but with God's all-powerful help, they can rise extremely easily.

It's just as silly when people ask, "Where did the water for the flood come from and where did it go?" This question is asked as if it's impossible for God to just make the water disappear without a trace.