AA=Asking Alexandria. A band that is already very successful, has been on Jimmy Kimmel or something and are all the rage at Hot Topic. Signed to Sumerian (after the burial, born of osiris, etc.) so many "metalheads" hate on them pretty hard. And, yes, they suck. I'd rather not show you guys

Last edited by After_The_Barrel_Roll on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

We have points of comparison. They don't. They hear nu metal on the radio and it's the only nu metal they've heard. Probably the only "metal" they've heard. Some people will swear that LD 50 by Mudvayne is a pretty damn good nu metal album..and it actually is a pretty good album for nu metal. The extreme majority of "music listeners" don't analyze much in the hearing department. They see the music video which contains hot girls or hot guys or some certain image

I'm not really going to get into the point of the conversation because I didn't read all of it. I'm hoping you're not Myles because the parts of it I did read? My head was about to explode because of how stupid Myles is.

Cghost21

Posts : 3074Title : Hookers and blowRegistered : 2011-01-18

Subject: Re: Your "opinion" please? Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:34 pm

I only read the first couple bits, and I don't know who you are, but there is music out there that is objectively bad so whoever was arguing that certain bands don't suck is wrong

Cghost21

Posts : 3074Title : Hookers and blowRegistered : 2011-01-18

Subject: Re: Your "opinion" please? Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:45 pm

Reading more of this, and the Scott guy is right, but he's going about this completely wrong comparing art to building and cars and shit you can quantify lmao

'if you make a song with no effort and no understanding of music it doesn't give the song anymore quality'

I assume he's trying to deride pop music there? Kind of funny considering he basically just described 99% of metal.

ICP does suck though, they make terrible music and should probably have their rights to do so revoked. And yes you can still make shitty music and sell 6.5 million, especially when your music caters to complete idiots.

For many years imports have had superior..everything to American made. And have been cheaper. Yes, I'm the scott guy. I compare it to building, painting, other stuff because it is created and it can be done poorly or well. I say later on how a lot of music including metal is created with little (to no) understanding of music. This other guy continues to say certain groups don't suck BECAUSE THEY HAVE FANS. I then say some people like behringer amps, but that doesn't make them good and then he says his behringer was GOOD rather than "he liked it" which basically contradicts his whole point that everything is all about opinion. Music is created.. It can be thought up however and be placed in someone's mind in whatever way...but it doesn't change that the creation of the music can be done poorly or done well/ It can be a shitty idea/plan/song from the start too. What are we going to say next? That Cop Out and Jersey Girl are Kevin Smith's best movies..because my opinion says so? People have a taste which has to be developed. Younger kids might like ketchup on steak, and fries, and burgers, and every other fucking meal they eat including pizza. Just because they like it...it's good? Fuck no. Same logic. People can like shitty things. It happens all the time. There's nothing wrong with it. Saying something isn't capable of being shitty though. That's flat out wrong

The problem is that sucks can mean very different things. I lean more towards agreeing with ATBR, but I can think of something musical sucking objectively for purely on musical merit. Musical merit is hard to define absolutely, but it's somewhat easy to define relatively.

Based on this argument, something like Beethoven clearly doesn't suck while something like Lil Wayne definitely does. However, with young people you're more likely to find fans of Lil Wayne than you are of Beethoven.

I can go on, but for now I'll just say I'm sure most of you don't like Dream Theater, but if you do would you say they suck?

I like some of Dream Theater's albums. Dislike some others. I'd never say they suck. I reserve "suck" for bands all about images, no talent (or talent used in an incredibly bad way. good example is Rings of Saturn), or the songwriting is just not good at all.

The problem with the "building" example is....well lets put it this way. Burzum. The recording for most of Varg's albums are pretty bad, but the music is widely considered absolutely amazing. Even with "bad supports" and "flimsy plywood", a successful building is produced. I sincerely doubt most of the "bad" albums out there took "no effort" to make. Ambiance, sometimes is literally just a recording of the everyday sounds that pass through an area. That took almost no effort, but can create some of the most serene atmosphere's that one can encounter (rain ambiance, a park).

It is absolutely subjective in a society sense but it's objective to you as an individual as you feel in terms of the art that there is straight up quality (or something I like) vs. garbage (or something I do not like). People mistake that multiple opinions that are shared make it almost a fact (or absolutely a fact), ie Limp Bizkit sucking or Tupac being the greatest MC.

Precisely, from an individuals standpoint, 2 people on different sides of the issue will view their own opinions as objective and will even bring in "factual" arguments to further validate their side (my music sells more, your band gave no effort, this band is far more kvlt), which are still far from credible arguments. Either points given are just more opinions, or facts loaded with a narrow-sighted description that stereotypes a cause. In the end though, in a far more non-assuming sense, each "correct" and "argued" opinion is still that, an opinion and one highly subjective in scope. When you view music as literally just the collection of sounds you hear, even if you're going to limit it to those things that are "created", the idea of quality doesn't fit everyone's ears the same way.

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To a point though, yes there will be things that can be considered "universally bad", but the only cases I can think of are things that are hazardous to our healths. Any music played at a dB level similar to a rocket engine at take off (and right next to it) is an experience no one saved suicidal masochists. Same with poisoned and improperly cared for food. Yet, the idea of foods still falls into line with the music arguments. If Pizza Hutt's pizza was really THAT terrible (or universally recognized as terrible) then why are they the most popular pizzaria in the world? It's not for poisoning their customers, that's for sure.

With black metal and stuff like that I understand the poor production. It was intended to be that way and it sometimes benefits the music. What I was mostly talking about was the process of writing. There's a huge difference between a chug chug breakdown band's writing compared to some avant garde jazz musician's writing. One takes no effort, one takes a lot of effort. Even if the music just comes to you. I am cool with "I like this" and "I don't like this" and there's nothing wrong with listening to some cookie cutter band and saying they suck dick. Yeah, people like it and no I am not one of those persons, but there are bands in this genre who have put out more original work, more talented work, more catchy work, etc. out there. So why are people listening to it? Yes, they like it, but they either haven't heard any better bands (which is very likely) or the better bands aren't as accessible as these guys. I see tons of hardcore kids who don't even know about the creators of the genre they listen to. I see tons of hardcore kids ignoring bands like Defeater and Dangers. Band popularity has nothing to how good or bad the music is. There's tons of shit popular and tons of gold that no one has heard. And there's tons of shit no one has heard and some good stuff everyone has heard. His points were all factually wrong

Cghost21

Posts : 3074Title : Hookers and blowRegistered : 2011-01-18

Subject: Re: Your "opinion" please? Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:40 pm

Dream Theater does suck

Cghost21

Posts : 3074Title : Hookers and blowRegistered : 2011-01-18

Subject: Re: Your "opinion" please? Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:44 pm

Also the fact that you're still pushing so hard for us to call this guy an idiot makes you look even more insecure about yourself. Just because someone has a differing view on things, despite how stupid said view might be, doesn't mean you need to get all worked up about it. Just let it go, the other guy could (and he looks like the much saner individual at this point).

jeffnogo

Posts : 1608Title : GalderRegistered : 2011-01-30

Subject: Re: Your "opinion" please? Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:55 pm

Well, then the problem is that people do not consistently use the term "suck". They can use it to refer to something that is dreadfully simple and aims for the lowest common denominator (Lil Wayne) or something that is overly complex and well played but just boring to listen to (Dream Theater).

However, they're boring because they don't know how to create a desired emotional response in your average listener but not all listeners, not because they have no music merit.

I think you can argue that Dream Theater sucking in the way I described is a subjective thing, but Lil Wayne sucking in the way I described is an objective thing.

One looks at musical merit and the other one looks at the ability for the music to create a positive emotional response. In the end, though, isn't that emotional response the purpose of art?

Cghost21

Posts : 3074Title : Hookers and blowRegistered : 2011-01-18

Subject: Re: Your "opinion" please? Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:02 pm

I just use suck as a synonym for bad.

Dream Theater are a talented group of individual, I don't take that away from them. However, it's clear that hte only reason they even keep releasing albums is to see how much of their musical jizz they can ejaculate onto one 70 minute fucking cd. The music doesn't do...anything. It just sits there and stagnates while they all rip through pentatonic scales as fast as they can. It has no merit towards musical and shouldn't even exist. Dream Theater sucks.

I'm not worked up about it. I really don't care. It can be discussed as a serious topic, but he argued his point worse than I did which is saying something. I agree partially with his "opinion" obviously because I don't really give a shit when you guys say certain bands I like are bad or whatever. Defending ICP by telling me what notes are being played? lol wut.

With black metal and stuff like that I understand the poor production. It was intended to be that way and it sometimes benefits the music.

With Varg and others, I don't think it's so much intent as it is they just don't know how to work recording equipment very well. It's sort of become a staple/cliche where black metal bands intentionally sound shitty, but I doubt that was always the case.