Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Just want to finalize that there are villains: David, by not taking loss of his men to well, and not taking rejection to well from a 14 year old girl, clearly put himself and his whole clan in unnecessary danger. Had he just been a survivor he would have taken the wise choice and just taken the hunted game and let bigons be bigons.

Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

You are sooooooooo wrong. That surgeon pulled his scalpel on Joel. It's not like he killed everyone in the operating room. And Ellie specifically described Marlene as a friend in the chapter "the cargo". Yeah that totally screams mother-daughter relationship. She just knew her since birth. Whenever you're in Pittsburgh there is an optional conversation outside a military school and Ellie describes it as "a fancy word for orphanage" so you wanna tell me again how Marlene is Ellie's "adopted mother"?

This is all true, and I don't deny that Ellie doesn't view Marlene as her true mother. But come on, keeping a baby alive that type of world??? You think it was the Firefly's??? Clearly Marlene went through more sacrifices than one can imagine, as she is the only adolescent that I seen besides the African American's little brother, who, survived soly because the utmost sacrifice of his brother.

Ellie didn't tell Joel much of anything in that conversation; she was if anything avoiding the topic.

She didn't call Marlene an orphanage, but military school.

Lastly, the queen firefly constantly crying over the death of someone like her adopted daughter. You don't get that from one of the lead terrorists, unless there is a big attachment.

Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

I'm sticking with my 'Everyone is a survivor' theory. I understand WHY David and his clan resorted to Cannibalism. Do I agree with it? No, but I can't really say considering I'm not currently trying to survive in a post-pandemic world.

Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Joel is definently not a good hero but IRL, what would you do in those situations?

Replace Ellie with someone you love, like your family members, girlfriend, wife... anyone you care so much that you'd do everythig Joel did to save them.

I really don't mind it but his last decision was the most stupid/evil of the entire game, i'm talking about saving Ellie instead of finding a cure.

Now, IRL, i LOVE my sister, i think i might even worship her, i would do everything Joel did but sacrificing the lives of thousand of people for one person? No, i definitely would not.

And Marlene even told him that she raised Ellie and all that... i mean, Marlene knows Ellie since she was a little girl, Joel knows her for what? One year? Marlene understood the most beneficial way for society to get reborn and accepted losing Ellie, you may even say Marlene saw Ellie as her own daughter. But she knew what was right to do.

Joel on the other hand... was selfish enough to do what he did. And that's the main reason i don't like him.

He, being a grown up man, was not mature enough to forget Sarah and experience another "daughter" dying.

Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

I think Greg Miller from ign already put forth this notion of Joel being the villain. The way I see it though. there were no real villains or heroes. Joel was acting as any real person given the situation, and wasnt portrayed as this larger than life hero.