You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Daemon Princes may well be critically important to our lists; so I have listed a number of DP variants to get the ball rolling, including some not so good ones, to point out what wonít work so well (useful for newbies).

Invariably Iíll have missed some fairly obvious points and made some mistakes, so I look forward to all your posts on this subject.

One of the problems we have with choosing how to Ďequipí our DPs, is that most of the models of DPs have got wings. For obvious reasons, we are therefore compelled to give our DPs Daemonic Flight, when they donít always need it. As Flight is very expensive, this is not always a good thing. What makes this even worse, is that GW have withdrawn almost all their individual part ordering service. In the past, you could order the bits you needed for each Daemon, without having to buy a complete box or blister.

Similarly, wings are so important to Daemon Princes in the Chaos Space Marine lists, that we need to keep some of our DPs with wings. This is going to make things more difficult in using the same DPs for WFB, Chaos Marine lists and Daemonic lists.

There are a few ways round this. Firstly if you want to only use GW models, they make plenty of larger models which can be used, or converted to be walking Daemons. Have a look at the Warhammer Fantasy models and maybe the Lord of the Rings range too. If youíre not bothered with GW models, then there are other manufactures out there, which make many models suitable for DPs. Put some effort in on the internet, and you should be rewarded. In GW stores, if youíre not so familiar with non-40k models, ask the staff too. They can sometimes be useful.

Remember though, that you are not allowed to use many non-GW models when playing at their shops, and maybe not in some club tournaments etc. Check this out before you spend your money. For scratch builds and conversions, my local GW store says that the model has to be made of at least 70% GW parts, otherwise you canít field it in the shop. Personally I donít like some of GWs models, and am happy to use other stuff. But then, Iím not so interested in tournaments, and am happy to limit my lists to me GW figures when I do compete.

The basic Daemon Prince (DP) without any additional Gifts is very cheap when one considers how good it is. With a good basic Toughness, lots of Wounds, plus a good Strength which ignores Armour saves; these Daemons can be used exactly as they come, just ĎRunningí till they can Assault. For their cheap points cost, you could risk Deep Striking a basic DP close to your enemyís units. In fact they are very similar in capabilities to a Herald of Khorne in a Chariot.

Although their Toughness is reasonably good, DPs without the Mark of Nurgle should avoid high Strength (5+) opponents in close combat, and should only engage them when they have a very good chance of winning the Assault, and surviving it. As usual, be afraid of Power Fists, even though they have been limited in 5th. Also be very afraid of Walkers with Dreadnought Close Combat weapons.

Daemon Princes all have a very high BS and WS, which makes their shooting reliable, and will almost always help in Assaults. Barring DPs of Khorne, who donít have access to medium or long range shooting Gifts, it seems a shame not to make use of this very high BS.

However, there is another way to see these DPs. In a 6 round game, there are 12 Assault Phases. If you can get your Daemons into Assaults, you can attack twice in one round (your Phase and their Phase), unlike shooting, which only happens once per round. So maybe the ultimate form is shoot, then Assault, making sure that youíre not Locked by your next Shooting phase.

When a DP charges, its high WS means that on average, it will hit 3.3 times. Against T3 this means it should kill approximately 3 enemies, and against T4 approximately 2. Of course, enemies with Invulnerable saves will reduce these numbers.

All Daemon Princes can therefore charge small enemy units of 10 or less models (with WS6 or less, S3, T3, I4 or less and 1-2 attacks each) on their own, and expect to win. As Iíve mentioned, Iron Hide increases this capability considerably. Remember though that if you want to defeat these enemy units, you should only consider charging against enemy units with average Leadership. If you donít mind staying for another round of close combat, it doesnít matter what their Leadership is.

Gifts

Iron Hide

DPís big drawback is their basic Invulnerable save, which leaves them especially vulnerable to massed shooting, or massed close combat hits. With this is mind, I would suggest that Iron Hide is a must have Gift for all DPs. Remember that massed Bolter fire can easily kill Daemon Princes which donít have Iron Hide, as will 10+ charging Ork Boyz. When you write Daemon Prince on your army list, write Iron Hide down at the same time.

Unholy Might

Increasing a DPs Strength really improves its capabilities, both against vehicles and non-vehicle units of T4 or better.

As I mentioned, when a normal DP charges against T3 opponents it should kill approximately 3 enemies, and against T4 approximately 2. A Daemon Prince with Unholy Might wonít kill any more T3 enemies, but will kill approximately 3 T4 enemies, and approximately 2 T5 enemies. So it is especially effective against MEQ armies, such as Marines and Necrons.

Daemonic Flight

For many players, this is also a must have Gift for their Princes, but this should not always be the case. For me, Flight is far too expensive, and I honestly believe that GW have miscalculated with the cost, which should be 30-45 points. Before you buy Flight, think very carefully about what you need the Prince to do.

Remember that Flight costs 66.6% of another Daemon Prince, and generally for two DPs with Flight, you can have three DPs without Flight. Similarly, if the cost of Flight brings your DP to 200+ points, consider the Greater Daemons instead.

Flight will allow your DP to achieve its tactical roles more quickly. For example, this could be getting a good line-of-sight for shooting, getting close enough to Assault an enemy unit a round earlier than on foot, or being able to charge into a close combat to support one of your units which needs some help.

It could also be vital if you have had to use the Deep Strike Mishap table, and your enemy has put your DP far away from his units. Remember that your DP can Run too!

Instrument of Chaos

Instrument of Chaos could often help it when you are involved in Assaults when you donít have many of your Daemons fighting, and therefore may turn out to be very useful in the later rounds of games.

Breath of Chaos

This Gift can be a game winner. Any ability which can potentially remove plenty of MEQs, or high Toughness models has got to be seriously considered. However you have to be very close to the enemy unit to use Breath of Chaos. This means that any Daemon Prince which is intended to Assault most of the time, could benefit from Breath. Remember though, that it can happen that if you kill too many enemy models during your shooting phase, you may be out of range to Assault afterwards.

Boon of Mutation

Firstly to be successful, Boon of Mutation requires the enemy model to fail a Toughness test. So it is most useful against armies whoís average Toughness is 3 not 4.

Although the Spawn created are quite good in close combat, they will die very quickly to enemy shooting or attacks of S4 or greater, because they have no save.

With this in mind, I think that if you are going to use Boon of Mutation, it may work best if you give Boon to all your Daemons that can have it. This way you can create many Spawn, creating too many targets for your opponent. I am definitely going to try this out. Remember though, that you need a model for each Spawn you create.

With that in mind, thereís nothing wrong with making your own Spawn, and converting them out of bits. Using GW spares, thereís so much you can use from 40k and WFB. If you include other manufactures, thereís infinite variety out there. As Spawn donít have fixed shapes, you can use modelling putties and Green stuff to create the main body of Spawn, then add arms, heads, spikes etc from your spares.

From a Ďfluffí point of view, why not make your Spawn fit the image of your army. For example, if you play mainly Nurgle, then have Spawn covering in boils and pustules. Build kinda mini Unclean Ones, and paint them in greens and browns. Slaaneshi Spawn can be long, sinuous, and maybe reptilian, in blues, pinks and purples.

Daemonic Gaze

This is a fantastic Gift for our DPs. It is very useful against all forms of MEQs, and has a high enough rate of fire to help reducing the amount of Horde based troops, i.e. Orks and Nids. For some Daemon Princes this is a very valuable Gift.

A MOST IMPORTANT POINT

All wise experienced players will tell you that it is extremely important that you donít give your Daemons any Gifts that they donít absolutely need. It is all too easy to choose too many powers for our units, when we would be better served and more successful, if we actually had more units or models.

An easy way to see how well youíve balanced your army list, is to play test all the ideas youíd think might work well together during friendly games with your local players; so that when you get to important games like tournaments and campaigns, youíll know which Gifts to choose and what to leave out.

Daemon Princes with no Mark

Basic Daemon Prince with no Mark

- Gifts: Iron Hide and Daemonic Gaze.

- Tactical Roles: Anti-Light Vehicle, Anti-MEQ, Shooty, Assault.

- Vector: Standard Movement (+ sometimes Run).

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover gives a better save than its own Invulnerable), Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight and in range to shoot.

- Sympathy: This DP can assist almost all our units.

- Negatives: This is an All-Purpose daemon, and is therefore o.k. at everything, but not brilliant at anything. Having said that, when it Assaults, it can shoot and then charge with plenty of high Strength Power Weapon attacks; and that definitely works for me. It is least effective against high vehicle armour. Also itís slow moving, but can Run, but will lose its shooting if it runs.

- Game: 40k. Based on my experiences so far, I donít think this guy would be as useful in Apocalypse as in 40k, unless you used quite a lot of them.

- Points: 130.

This DP is a simple all-rounder, which can shoot well while it moves towards the enemy. It can assault most things, including vehicle armour up to 12 (maybe 13).

This Daemon would be so much better with Gaze twice, or at least Gaze and Breath, but as is often the case, GW failed to see how the text in their Codex would work out in reality (or made an odd choice), because most Daemon Princes canít have Gaze and Breath.

If you have points spare, or want to make it more capable in Assault, add Unholy Might and maybe Instrument of Chaos.

- Sympathy: This is a very simple Daemon. It Assaults and will therefore be able to aid in any of your Assaults.

- Negatives: No shooting capability, so it needs to Assault as quickly as possible.

- Game: Apocalypse, 40k.

- Points: 190.

If you have points spare, or want to make it more capable in Assault, add Instrument of Chaos.

Although it looks useful in theory, i.e. fast, with great close combat capability, for the points Iíd rather have 11 Seekers or 6 Fiends of Slaanesh. For 60 more points I can have a Bloodthirster, which is a bigger better version of this DP, with a much greater chance of survival.

This DP doesnít work for me. Itís too expensive for its capabilities, and though it is able to destroy vehicles, Iíd rather use other Daemons to achieve this. Its best use maybe as a Character hunter, but most experienced players wonít allow you the opportunity to attack their Characters without a hard fight.

Daemon Princes of Nurgle

With their increased Toughness, DPs of Nurgle are much more resilient, and have a much better chance of survival, than the other DPs, especially those of Khorne and Slaanesh. Once again Iron Hide is critical to their survival.

Daemons on Nurgle are notorious for their ability to hold enemy units in close combat for many rounds. This is often called ĎTar Pití because it prevents enemy units from moving. However, DPs of Nurgle are no so good at this, whereas Daemons of Nurgle with Feel No Pain excel at this. Great Unclean Ones are far better ĎTar Pití daemons, than DPs of Nurgle, and have higher Strength, Noxious Touch and more Attacks too.

Certainly on their own DPs of Nurgle should be able to take on small to medium sized units of Gaunts, Imperial Guardsmen, Tau infantry, Eldar Guardians and similar low Strength, low Toughness units, as long as the Prince gets the charge. However, to fight against specialist close combat units, they must work together with other Daemonic units.

DPs of Nurgle are not really suited to taking on vehicles, as the extra cost to become a Nurgle Daemon means that they should be engaging non-vehicle units.

Daemon Princes of Nurgle have one definite advantage over most Nurgle Daemons. They are not ĎSlow and Purposefulí. Unfortunately, they do not have ĎFeel No Painí and canít buy it, which I find rather stupid. If a Plaguebearer has FNP, then surely DPís of Nurgle should be able to buy, even it is was 30+ points. Iím sure this is a deliberate choice of GW, to keep Ďgame balanceí. But I donít agree.

Gifts of Nurgle

). Aura of Decay: This is a very useful ability against T3-2 enemies, and maybe T4 with poor armour saves (5-6+).

). Cloud of Flies is a bargain, and could prove very useful to DPs of Nurgle.

). Noxious Touch: if you have points to spare, this Gift is definitely worth taking, as it helps to maximise the DPís close combat effectiveness.

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover save is better save than its own Invulnerable), Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight and in range to shoot.

- Sympathy: This DP can assist almost all our units.

- Negatives: Like the No Mark DP (apologies for the pun), this is also an All-Purpose daemon, and is therefore o.k. at everything, but not brilliant at anything. Itís slow moving, but can ĎRuní, but will lose its shooting if it Runs.

- Game: 40k. Based on my experiences so far, I donít think this guy would be as useful in Apocalypse as in 40k, other than when Epidemius is in play.

- Points: 160.

This is a good basic Daemon to use against MEQ armies.

As above, if you have points spare, or want to make it more capable in Assault; add any or all of Unholy Might, Cloud of Flies and Instrument of Chaos.

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover save is better save than its own Invulnerable), Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight, or you could take a risk and go very close to the enemy.

- Sympathy: The Horde Destroyer needs to join in with others of our units to Assault enemy hordes.

- Negatives: Itís slow moving, but can Run, but will lose its shooting if it runs. This DP is too expensive to be used in general play, and is specifically tailored to play against Horde armies. However, as I have mentioned above, none of the DPs are well suited to fight against massed attacks, especially when they are on their own. So this DP will need to Assault with other Daemonic units if you want it to survive.

- Game: Apocalypse, 40k.

- Points: 180

Daemonic Gaze could be replaced by Breath of Chaos, but will need to be deployed closer to the enemy. You could also replace Daemonic Gaze with Boon of Mutation, but the Daemon wonít kill anywhere near as many enemies. Against low Toughness enemies this can be amusing and occasionally quite effective.

As above, if you have points spare, or want to make it more capable in Assault, add Cloud of Flies and maybe Instrument of Chaos.

- Sympathy: The Horde Destroyer can join in with any of our units Assaulting enemy hordes.

- Negatives: This DP is far too expensive to be used in an all-purpose list, and is specifically tailored to play against Horde armies. It will need to Assault with other Daemonic units if you want it to survive.

- Game: Apocalypse, 40k. This is a fantastic Apocalypse DP when Epidemius is in play.

- Points: 250

If you have points spare, or want to make it more capable in Assault, add Cloud of Flies and maybe Instrument of Chaos.

Daemon Princes of Tzeentch

DPs of Tzeentch have a better Invulnerable save than all the other DPs. But does this mean that they can survive without Iron Hide? If you intend to use a DP of Tzeentch as a (fairly) cheap shooting machine, maybe you can get away without Iron Hide; but my feeling is that they will still need this upgrade if they are to survive for more than a round or two.

My reason for this, is that all our Daemonic shooting is short range. Even Bolt of Tzeentch only has the range as a Lasgun or Bolter. Therefore, Tzeentchís DPs will still need to be close to the enemy when they shoot.

Gifts of Tzeentch

). Bolt of Tzeentch: this is our best anti-vehicle shooting attack.

). Mastery of Sorcery: although this Gift appears to be very useful, as it allows a DP of Tzeentch to fire with three different Gifts in the Shooting phase, you will have to pay for these three shooting Gifts plus for the Mastery of Sorcery. This means your DP will be expensive.

). Soul Devourer: in general this Gift is too specialised to be of much use, and really requires the enemy to have plenty of multi-Wound models for it to be worthwhile.

Simple Anti-Vehicle Daemon Prince of Tzeentch

- Gift: Bolt of Tzeentch.

- Tactical Role(s): Anti Vehicle. Also good for shooting at Monstrous Creatures or non-vehicle models with high Toughness (Terminators, Destroyers, Plague Marines etc).

- Vector: Standard Movement (+ sometimes Run).

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover save is better save than its own Invulnerable), Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight and in range to shoot.

- Sympathy: Any daemons which will target vehicles and high Toughness enemies.

- Negatives: Poor save. For its points cost, this Daemon is one dimensional, though obviously, like all DPs it is still good in close combat.

- Game: Apocalypse and 40k.

- Points: 140

It may well be, that for the points, a unit of 3x Flamers of Tzeentch with 1x Bolt of Tzeentch, may well achieve more and be more worthwhile, than fielding one of these DPs. They are faster and have far better shooting against all targets, even vs. vehicles.

Adding Iron Hide will increase its survivability. Adding Breath of Chaos adds to its overall capability.

Close Support Shooty Daemon Prince of Tzeentch

- Gifts: Daemonic Gaze and Breath of Chaos.

- Tactical Role(s): Anti-Light Vehicle, Shooty, Anti-Horde, Anti-MEQ.

- Vector: Standard Movement (+ maybe Run).

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover save is better save than its own Invulnerable), Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight and in range to shoot.

- Sympathy: This daemon can support any of our units, however it will be wasted if we move it incorrectly and it ends up shooting through our own units, or with no targets after most of our units are assaulting the enemy. The limited range of all Daemon shooting attacks is a severe limitation to our shooting.

- Negatives: Poor save and slow movement.

- Game: Apocalypse and 40k.

- Points: 155.

Again for this DP the question needs to asked, will it be more effective than 4x Flamers of Tzeentch?

Adding Iron Hide will increase its survivability.

Master of Shootiness: Adding Master of Sorcery and Boon of Mutation or Bolt of Tzeentch will make it a very powerful shooting machine, liable to attract a large amount of attention from your enemy. It will also cost around 200 points, without Iron Hide!

In its ultimate form, give it Iron Hide and Daemonic Flight. This version is probably only worth considering for big Apocalypse games.

What a great pity that it canít do Boon of Mutation 2-3 times a round.

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover save is better save than its own Invulnerable), Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight and in range to shoot.

- Sympathy: This daemon can support any of our units, however it will be wasted if we move it incorrectly and it ends up shooting through our own units, or with no targets after most of our units are assaulting the enemy. The limited range of all Daemon shooting attacks is a severe limitation to our shooting.

- Negatives: Poor save and slow movement.

- Game: Apocalypse and 40k.

- Points: 200.

To allow this DP to survive it really needs Iron Hide too, making it 230 points. As a Lord of Change is far superior, and costs only a little more, once again I canít see the point of creating this kind of Prince.

Also will this DP be more effective than 5-6x Flamers of Tzeentch with a Bolt?

Daemon Princes of Slaanesh

Slaaneshi DPs have a better Initiative than most other models in the 40k game. This means that they can be very useful in close combat, as they can kill enemies before they have a chance to fight back.

So we want our Princes of Slaanesh to get into close combat rightÖ. Well yes but, DPs of Slaanesh are the only DPs which can have Pavane of Slaanesh; and to use that most effectively our Slaaneshi Princes canít be in close combat during our Shooting phases.

Gifts of Slaanesh

). Aura of Acquiescence is a bargain, and could prove very useful to DPs of Slaanesh that will spend most of their time in close combat.

). Pavane of Slaanesh: As DPís have a great BS, and Gifts are not Psychic powers, they are very likely to use Pavane successfully. Pavane is a very useful power for all Daemon players, because it can be used for the following:

- To move enemy units closer so that you can Assault them. - To move enemy units away from Objectives and other Mission specific things. - To move enemy units out of Line-of-Sight, so they canít shoot you next round. - To move enemy units away, so they canít Assault you next round.

). Soporific Musk: This Hit & Run rule allows DPs of Slaanesh to get out of close combat, and move a reasonable distance away. As Slaaneshi DPs donít have good Invulnerable saves or high Toughness, this ability can be very useful in keeping them alive. Also if used during your enemyís Assault phase, it means that your DP will be able to fire during your next Shooting phase.

). Transfixing Gaze: if you have points to spare, this Gift is definitely worth taking, as it helps to protect the DP, increasing its chance of surviving in close combat, especially against enemy models with S5+and Power weapons.

If you intend that your DP of Slaanesh will charge small enemy units which only have one Attack each, then Transfixing Gaze will be especially useful. Against opponents with two or more Attacks each, it will be much less useful.

- Sympathy: All our Assault units. This DP needs to Assault in combination with other units.

- Negatives: Slow. No shooting Gifts. Very little chance of surviving the game.

- Game: Apocalypse and 40k.

- Points: 125.

Although this is a cheap Daemon, massed shooting and close combat attacks will quickly kill it.

Any of the following Gifts will make it more efficient in close combat, but will not change its basic nature and capabilities: Unholy Might, Instrument of Chaos, and Transfixing Gaze. Adding Soporific Musk will radically change its ability to project your attacks, and maybe to survive, but it still has a poor Invulnerable save.

- Vector: Standard Movement (+ Run if it doesnít have a Pavane target).

- Deployment: Behind Cover that it can see through (only if the Cover save is better save than its own Invulnerable) and within shooting range, Behind Line-of-Sight blocking Cover, Out of Line-of-Site, Not close to the enemy but with Line-of-Sight and within shooting range.

- Sympathy: This DP is a loner, intended to manipulate your enemyís units. As it also has good close combat capabilities, and can therefore join in any Assaults.

- Negatives: None.

- Game: Apocalypse and 40k.

- Points: 150

Though it seems more logic to use Heralds of Slaanesh to use Pavane, they have average BS, and two basic Heralds with Pavane is 140 points. Iíd rather have a DP with all its extra power, than the two Heralds.

Add Aura of Acquiescence to help out in Assaults, and Soporific Musk so the DP can leave combat and keep on using Pavane.

The question to ask is, whether 150 points is worth it for something which is going to move one enemy unit 1-6Ē for most of the rounds it is in the game. If we use it to Assault, and it stays Locked, it canít use its Pavane. Adding Soporific Musk obviously helps in this regard, and although it makes it more expensive, is well worth using.

Alternatively add Daemonic Gaze, and keep the DP as a shooting unit. The idea of moving an enemy unit with Pavane, and then blasting it with Daemonic Gaze is rather pleasing to me.

The same logic can be applied to Breath of Chaos, however this means that your DP will finish its movement very close to the enemy unit itís shooting at. Unless you can destroy the enemy unit, or break its morale, youíll need to be prepared to Assault it.

Daemon Princes of Khorne

Daemon Princes of Khorne have more Attacks than the other Princes. They are close combat specialists, and must have Iron Hide.

Please remember that thereís no point trying to make a DP of Khorne into a Bloodthirster, when the Bloodthirster will still have a much better list of characteristics. If your DP is costing 200+ points, consider taking a Bloodthirster instead.

Gifts of Khorne

Blessing of the Blood God: if you have points to spare, this Gift is definitely worth taking.

Death Strike: Although this is very nice Shooting Gift, Princes of Khorne are likely to involved in close combat most of the time, and therefore this Gift is likely to be a waste of points.

I donít understand why DPís of Khorne havenít been given Furious Charge in their list of Khorneís Gifts, maybe for the same cost as Unholy Might.

- Negatives: Poor Invulnerable save and only reasonable Toughness, so choose who he attacks carefully.

- Game: Apocalypse and 40k.

- Points: 205 points.

Add Unholy Might especially against MEQ armies; and Instrument of Chaos if you have the points.

To be honest, I canít see the point in taking this Daemon, when a Bloodthirster is so much better, and far more likely to survive. The Bloodthirster has better far better WS and S, plus better T, Invulnerable Save, Initiative when charging.

I use just plain DP, no upgrades. I find that they can still do decent damage if they make it to CC. But mainly because they are such a high priority target by my opponents that it is a waste of points if it has anything more.

As a plain DP it still attracts allot of firepower from my opponents and means my other units are a little bit safer

I don't think wings are worth it. Almost all of the DP's upgrades should cost 4/5 of what they are to be worth it. Running 2 of them with nothing but iron hjde and a SG with phelgm seems like a good plan for the heavy support.

--------------------

I like to carve my own stuff, though I'm not opposed to buying harder-to-carve troops like horrors. Eternal glory to Tzeentch!