Dear all
I have asked Chris Best, and she said she has no problems with the bridge having a mural (subject to the usual legalities, naturally). That seems to make this the perfect spot. While it is smaller than ideal, it is likely to be seen by more people than any other site can offer. It is a parking - free zone, so no obscured views. It would need a site-specific design, but aren't we supposed to be celebrating Sydenham itself, rather than generic SE London?

Dear JRW/all,
Will be updating everyone on the meeting I had with Network Rail yesterday (need to try to condense everything so it doesn’t bore people!). With all due respect I don’t believe it’s up to Chris Best /The Council (or other) what can or can’t be done, obviously their input re:knowledge and personal opinion would be great but would be added to all other people’s opinions/info that have kindly been presented so far. The bridge is under Network Rail ownership, as is the planned location for the mural and some other sites. Obviously having members of the council’s input re: voting, promoting the project and possible donations would be great but as mentioned a number of times before this project is essentially stand-alone from the council, the Sydenham society (or any other existing body) to be as simple and straightforward as possible and to avoid any concerns people have of those aforementioned groups (see previous messages in this thread, 154-158 Sydenham road or Sydenham society thread) and avoid nothing from happening/moving forward (another concern that has been raised a few times to me including when in the past permissions and funding have been signed off)

In terms of the bridge, I think it would be fantastic to do something there as well as other locations (see below!) but in terms of “visibility” and “sightlines” (Pros and cons of sites regarding this have been mentioned this before) it’s quite difficult to measure in terms of what is “best”(!) and that the site has to also match the idea for the project or mural (eg: a large sign for Sydenham / SE26 personally would not be great there but a message or individual pictures for the segments would).

I will write a detailed message later but as part of the plan I went round all possible sites of art owned by NR, not just the proposed site of the mural, and have essentially got permission for art to take place at all the locations. There are a number of provisos that need to take place (e.g: risk assessment or an artist can’t just turn up and do something even if NR have given permission and the artist has entire free reign to do what they please a rough mock-up or idea needs to be shown to Network Rail etc). So initial plan would be to crowdfund the commissioned piece and then later down the line getting between 5-8 high quality street artists to come on a set day to do the other spaces with their own stuff. These spots are;
The wall around the WC
The bridge
The run off wall from the bridge (next to acorn/opposite Pavillion)
The lowish wall to the right of the smaller northbound station entrance
*The wall at the end of Station approach may be council owned and not NR owned - they are checking that at the moment - in which case it would be council to give permission/make decisions etc

NR who own all the walls are very keen on this stuff at present and are very happy with the planned mural location on the approach which is totally signed off.

Will send a slightly more detailed message including some questions raised by forum members that I passed on.

Funnily enough, when the bridge was proposed as a potential site for artwork, Chris Best was against it, saying 'it would be distracting for drivers' (which is frankly, ludicrous). So she has changed her tune on that. And I agree, she should be supporting this initiative by Jon, she isn't the gatekeeper, she is an elected representative, I would only have asked her for her support, which she really should give.

I hope this is the case.

Keep up the good work Jon.

This isn't to say that the bridge doesn't get some artwork later. But Jon has done incredibly well (not long ago it as REALLY difficult to get permission from NR for this type of work). Strike while the irons hot, let's get this done and support it.

Coo-er, kudos on progress JMLF. Plus it doesn't sound like they're imposing any conditions that are onerous or other than expected, e.g. having a say to ensure nothing outlandish appears, disruption, H&S etc.

Is it too late to add another question for NR? It makes sense even if a bit cheeky, but you can only ask. Would they be prepared to chip in to clean up any bricks which weren't painted that effectively form a frame, e.g. panel surrounds? The new Station Approach bricks behind the loo have character and put the existing ones with decades of soot and grime to shame, so cleaning (if still visible) would make it look a really "proper" or finished job
(Hopefully if sandblasted rather than a quick wipe over with a damp cloth, it'd be before the mural was painted.)

PS: Thanks for reply re line of sight. I hadn't really considered that most sites will be obscured at some time, so good to hear you've already thought of these things.

Sorry that my posts seem to have raised hackles. I asked Chris Best solely because it was repeatedly stated that she was opposed, and that made that choice problematic. It seemed unlikely, so I checked whether it was true. It isn't.

This is a public forum, and it would be a shame if new participants are discouraged. I simply wish to participate in the discussion, as we will all be looking at it. I know that designs will be voted for, but the choice of site is absolutely crucial, and that seems to have been preselected.

Not at all! I think any questions/issues raised are great especially to get others thinking about x/y/z and I’ve done my very best to be impartial and provide objective information throughout answering the questions I can.

In terms of voting for things - this is tricky to some respect as it has been raised by those social media savvy/in marketing that having many rounds of voting does somewhat dilute a project and the impact/peoples want to be involved and we could already have had about 7 votes by now on all sorts(!) and some things as a result have been preselected to a degree but with a lot of thought - eg: a vote could have taken place for this project to take place or not, followed by a vote for National Rail sites only (for ease of access due to information provided to me by the FH mural project) or private sites - if private sites were to be looked at or picked then we probably wouldn’t be at this stage by now and it’d be much harder to gain permission, access to a degree (eg: if the overall vote was for the privately owned high canvas on the corner building of syd approach and high street) and costs would be much higher. This is just an example of how votes for certain things may have reduced the forward momentum or potential success. Again, the idea for the project full stop was for a large typographic Sydenham/se26 (or variant) - this could have been voted on and chosen to be something other (like basis of abstract images or pictures of Sydenham etc) which again would have had an impact on the site chosen, however this project specifically is for a large typographic piece of art.

Many thoughts have been put into this project not only by myself but others across forums and (personally messages) to date across the board and hopefully my responses/posts on the forum have reflected that (!) particular with respect to the importance of location, size and surface, visibility/sightlines, access (and impacts on price or feasibility).

I’m terms of specifications for other bits f the project it’s a fine line between given an artist some spec whilst not telling them exactly what to do as artistic license I think is hugely important both to getting submissions and in terms of a hopeful variety of submissions.

With all other locations which I have conditionally achieved permissions for, other people are more than welcome to take on other art projects for these locations - my original thought being that these sites could be for artists to sort of do their own thing (no commissioning = free!) although there are conditions to the work and the locations (eg: NR need a mock-up if what is being planned).

Hope that gives you a little bit more evidence (?!)) that a lot of thought has gone into many aspects of this project although it’s been a relatively new process and that the best has been done as far as possible with regards to the overall project.

At the end of the day if enough people like the design which will be at the location on station approach (even if it’s not their personal favourite location) hopefully it will be funded and take place! If not then it won’t! Hopefully everything being done on this project whichever way you look at it will lead to the other NR sites being displayed with art in the near future also..

It has been said several times on the forum that Chris Best is hindering some developments etc ...I think JRW was sensible to ask as he had an opportunity, just to allay any concerns and/or unfounded comments about Chris's viewpoint! Lee says that she previously disagreed with the suggested site ...now she doesn't, so one less problem/hindrance to be overcome which is great!! People are entitled to change their minds!

Chris ...it is good to know that you are supportive of this initiative ...JMLF has achieved a great deal in a short space of time.

Many thanks again for the constant feedback and the general positiveness that is behind the project at present...
As promised, bit more of a lowdown on the meeting regarding some questions put forward and some extra Brucie bonus news!:

1. There is no guarantee for things to happen to the wall, however the NR representative stated that due to the location/size/shape he would very much doubt it would be sold off for advertising or other (as previously asked). Another person stated that some places need repair/rebuilding, this does not appear the case for the station approach wall in the near future (I am unsure if this could be the case for the bridge or other locations - no idea, sorry! but should find out soonish)

2. The following NR locations (all but one previously mentioned) have been given conditional permission - the entire wall around the WC, the bridge, run off from bridge (wall opposite pavilion) and the shortish wall to right side of smaller northbound station entrance. Conditions include having to give NR rough mock-ups of the art prior to the painting taken place, an arranged day/s so a one-off license can be created so artists don’t get arrested, risk assessments (basic) and for painters to have insurance/liability (if not, I’m not sure if NR have some sort of waiver).
3. The wall at the end of station approach currently looks like it is owned by the council not NR. NR are kindly looking into it to ensure that is the case - if it does fall under NR permission (as with 2.) is granted. If not, as it seems, it is for the council and their processes to go through for permission/art to be displayed.

I think all other questions from the forum I’ve been able to answer half decently (?!) and will look into the question of wall cleaning and if the mural gets tagged/damaged after any artist warranty runs out whether NR are able to clean as they own the wall or the responsibility of us as we paid for/“own” the mural?!

Brucie Bonuses!:

1. The NR representative has put in a request for the railside wall graffiti to be cleaned/covered.
2. Another local who has taken an interest/supported the mural project kindly asked to look into doing some sort of green/nature project with the narrow piece of “woodland” which is between the peak hill gardens houses and the northbound platform and potentially the small pieces of banking on the southbound platform. As a result the NR representative has put in a request to clear the rubbish on the woodland strip of land and is looking into permissions around this type of project which may end up involving local community members and potentially local schools, clubs or elder people groups. Very early days and not my project (tho I hope to be involved), but thought be nice to give some Brucie bonuses and again continue to be as transparent as possible with every step of the process including yesterday’s meeting!

Have a lovely week all and should have the Facebook page (which will be very basic and direct people to the forums) in the next few days.

Congratulations and thanks for taking out so much of your time on behalf of the community.

Personally I still feel that a large piece intended to cover over all of those panels would not really work as you would need to design working with the gradient and recesses. A splurge over the top would look a bit silly.

Various styles of art could be potentially composed within the panels and be more palatable.
More subtle and working with the architecture, rather than against it- akin to what is sometimes seen at Gloucester Road and is often quite beautiful, particularly when lit.
Google “art in underground station Gloucester road” if you never travelled through there.

One assumes various art styles will be encouraged and considered.

I also feel that sometimes less is more.
I might prefer the wall simply be cleaned up to emphasise the panels - there is so much visual "white noise" on the main street and I also quite like the look of a smart run of retail on one side and the sparce wall opposite).

I like that the bridge is back in play as at the moment that looks a little grotty.

I do think we should ideally be looking at something on Sydenham Road. This was my original expectation when I saw this thread and supported it. As per my previous email – easy to choke the throat of Network Rail as they are responsible, as proven here.

I know that there are statements to say that other areas have previously tried and failed and that there is an issue with access platforms etc.
If you get traction on a good design, you never know, you may change people’s minds and a local roofer or maintenance company might choose to sponsor the access equipment.

The area at the bottom outside the station is a good size but is unseen by most. I’d support if something else were going roadside.
Someone posted something about repeatable themes, I agree that the wider road “scheme” in terms of appearance is important to consider. This is what the planners usually miss when agreeing shop front designs. There should be a tone carried through.

The news on the spot rail side is great. This would have been perfect. A clean up would be great if that’s a concession.

I'm concerned too about a Brexit style poll result. So much subjectivity around art. What is clever and uniquely beautiful might still not be appropriate.
Gaudy coloured graffiti of tenuous relevance like on Homecroft, for example is liveable with in its location, but not at the station that we all travel through.

To reiterate, I love this idea for Sydenham (although I would also like more flora and fauna) - but the insistence on substantive size, in this location, does make me nervous.
Nervous excitement I hope.

Aside -The Turdis was shocking to me when it went in - I actually assumed that a grown up toilet block would be constructed, serviceable alongside the station (how naïve can I be!)

Very little input from local businesses here (generally not much web presence), very odd as this will affect them.

Well done for getting so far so quickly JMLF that is a major achievement, not least in these parts that is a fantastic achievment,It is good news that NR are being so supportive.

Whilst i have nothing against her what so ever, i do not see why it is more relevent to know what Chris Best thinks than anybody else.it is not council business so if she has a personal opinion she can always post it. I disagree too that it helps to "clarify her position". Are we in Chatham House or something? Such grandiosity! All because you happen to know a local councillor. She is not Holy Father!

I would also appreciate rather less personal (fawning) messaging of her through this forum too as there is a DM function. "Well Chris glad to see" etc etc. Enough!Your actions only go to confirm what many already think, rightly or wrongly -that there are circles of an elite in Sydenham that constantly attempt use their connections rather than the democratic process to further their own interests.

Just to be clear my issue is not with her but with both those who continually use this forum either to criticise and blame her for everything and speculate what she may or may not think and also those who continually toady and grovel - i get the feeling she is more than capable of speaking for herself.

JayB wrote:Well done for getting so far so quickly JMLF that is a major achievement, not least in these parts that is a fantastic achievment,It is good news that NR are being so supportive.

Whilst i have nothing against her what so ever, i do not see why it is more relevent to know what Chris Best thinks than anybody else.it is not council business so if she has a personal opinion she can always post it. I disagree too that it helps to "clarify her position". Are we in Chatham House or something? Such grandiosity! All because you happen to know a local councillor. She is not Holy Father!

I would also appreciate rather less personal (fawning) messaging of her through this forum too as there is a DM function. "Well Chris glad to see" etc etc. Enough!Your actions only go to confirm what many already think, rightly or wrongly -that there are circles of an elite in Sydenham that constantly attempt use their connections rather than the democratic process to further their own interests.

Just to be clear my issue is not with her but with both those who continually use this forum either to criticise and blame her for everything and speculate what she may or may not think and also those who continually toady and grovel - i get the feeling she is more than capable of speaking for herself.

I am sure Chris is capable of speaking for herself. For whatever reason she chooses to ignore large amounts of what could be commented on, as does the Sydenham Society!

It is also not fawning but perfectly appropriate to say that it is good to know our local councillor is supportive of such a positive initiative. If our local councillor was against it, would it be inappropriate to comment? Being positive is not being fawning. So far, no council representative or Sydenham Society "Officer" has commented positively on the Mural project, which is a pity.

It may not be council business but it is most definitely better to have good relationships and discussions with council representatioves for any community initiative!!

The Clown wrote: ...[clip]...
I'm concerned too about a Brexit style poll result. So much subjectivity around art. What is clever and uniquely beautiful might still not be appropriate.
Gaudy coloured graffiti of tenuous relevance like on Homecroft, for example is liveable with in its location, but not at the station that we all travel through.

[clip]...

This is an interesting dilemma is it not?

The most useful poll question arguably for successful crowdfunding for the Station Approach panel run is: "Which mural would you personally pay towards?" Which might or miught not be anything like the same result as an unqualified question: "Which mural would you like to see?"

On Station Approach, it'd be odd to have a "mad" (overly arty) mural or one that doesn't take advantage of the panels as an asset, but a boring, predictable one that doesn't warrant a second glance would be a waste of money in my mind so just cleaning all the bricks would be better.

On the bridge, here's a thought, maybe for others, especially artists, as it's not on on JMLF's agenda at the moment: Maybe that the bridge looks decidedly grotty is a good thing as there's more incentive for someone to pop up and do something once the mural ball is rolling...

To continue publicity of the project and an attempt to get as many people in the know, I have managed to secure a small spot in the Sydenham assembly quarterly newsletter to spread word to people who do not use twitter/forums much etc

I hope it will go out at a prime time either before the design vote (ideally!) or if not, hopefully at least before the crowdfunder goes live.

I am planning for to send out a basic “spec” this week with a current 2-week deadline for applications (any input for this timeline being changed let me know if feel this is too short/unfeasible, but I’m hoping/thinking this continues the pace of the project with regards to chatter/excitement rather than 1 month of nothing and things waning off)

Mosy - think the questioning style of “...pay/donate for” for the vote would be a really good way of gauging popularity aswell as likelihood of success to some extent perhaps (and how much extra “work” might need to be done to achieve the target eg: fundraising events)

mosy wrote:Coo-er, kudos on progress JMLF. Plus it doesn't sound like they're imposing any conditions that are onerous or other than expected, e.g. having a say to ensure nothing outlandish appears, disruption, H&S etc.

Is it too late to add another question for NR? It makes sense even if a bit cheeky, but you can only ask. Would they be prepared to chip in to clean up any bricks which weren't painted that effectively form a frame, e.g. panel surrounds? The new Station Approach bricks behind the loo have character and put the existing ones with decades of soot and grime to shame, so cleaning (if still visible) would make it look a really "proper" or finished job
(Hopefully if sandblasted rather than a quick wipe over with a damp cloth, it'd be before the mural was painted.)

PS: Thanks for reply re line of sight. I hadn't really considered that most sites will be obscured at some time, so good to hear you've already thought of these things.

I hadn’t forgotten about you Mosy - have enquiries with NR Rep who said it would be very doubtful in light of budget cuts and priorities etc but he will ask for us!

I’m other news, although it requires double-checking the wall at the end of Sydenham approach appears to not be registered to the council so it may be able to be added to the list of NR sites they are happy (conditions permitting) to be artified at some point. Will wait for the confirmation.

The spec will hopefully be going out to forums/twitter/artists tonight or tomorrow..

The location:
Sydenham station approach which runs from the main station entrance to the high street - between WC and Station.

Type of mural:
Typography based large statement piece
Must incorporate “Sydenham”, “SE26” or a variation (e.g.: SydEnham26)
Bright colours - up to the chosen artist’s discretion to ultimately produce 2 colour schemes for voting by public (If useful - overgroundesque colours or greens to represent the wealth of parkland nearby have been suggested by a few)

Size of mural:
Height ranges from approx 7ft to 10ft (the pavement gradually slopes downward from the WC)
Width either approx 35ft (3 panels) or 48ft (4 panels)
Please contact me for any more specific measurements you would like (sydenhamural@gmail.com or message on twitter @sydenhamural)

Surface: Non flat in part with some natural “frames” / edges to use

Budget: Up to £2000

Other bits:
All artists need Public Liability Insurance to meet Network Rail’s brief

Please provide a brief bio and/or examples of your work alongside costing, what this includes (e.g.: A set period of time whereby the artist will undertake any touch ups if damage/fading occurs to the piece) and a rough estimate of when the piece could be done (bearing in mind up to 4 weeks of crowdfunding will occur from around mid/end March)
There is a WC on the road for public use for the artist

Enquiry for special parking permits are taking place, however if not possible, the bays directly outside the mural location are for “20 mins” only which can be used for drop offs/pick-ups and permanent non-permit required locations are available nearby and will be organised to be reserved as close as possible to the site.

So, if you know an artist who’d be willing to commit to this project, please ask them for a Sydenham tailored mock-up, a quote and estimated date of completion.

The Deadline for submissions is Monday 12th March, after which voting will take place. Submissions to be sent to sydenhamural@gmail.com.

Cannot wait to start the crowdfunder and make the Sydenham Mural a reality and depending on the success of this project there is scope for another potential commissioned piece and/or exposure through non-commissioned pieces at conformed permissiones locations around the station.

If there are no applicants, then there may be some movements in the deadline or the spec going forward.

Newtosydenham wrote:reat work JMLF! Thank you for all your efforts in getting this off the ground. Excited to see the proposals and for the finished product, whatever it may look like!

That's exactly how I feel; and we both intend to participate in the crowdfunding too - I just can't believe how much you have achieved just by persisting and by being unrelentingly positive. What a transformation of the area this will turn out to be...

Also agree with pinning the post; the one about the Greyhound as well as Nandos are becoming less relevant now...