Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

stahrgazer wrote:No, he did not. He freed them per the laws of the state he lived in at the time: when they came of age. If he had tried to free them prior to that, he would have risked them being captured and enslaved by someone brutal. Choice two was to send them away from home, which their mother did not wish. We know she did not wish it because when she, a then-free woman, became pregnant by Jefferson, she CHOSE to return to Virginia with him.

Symmetry wrote: Is that not abhorrent?

Blind Ignorance is more abhorrent.

Hemings was never a free woman in Jefferson's lifetime. He didn't even free her in his will.

At his death, Jefferson was greatly in debt, in part due to his continued construction program.[79] The debts encumbered his estate, and his family had to sell 130 slaves from Monticello to pay his creditors.[76][80] Jefferson freed five slaves in his will, all males of the Hemings family. In addition to his two natural sons, he freed Sally's younger half-brother John Hemings, and her nephews Joseph (Joe) Fossett and Burwell Colbert.[81] He gave Burwell Colbert, who had served as his butler and valet, $300 for purchasing supplies used in the trade of "painter and glazier". He gave John Hemings and Joe Fossett each an acre on his lands so they could build homes for their families. His will included a petition to the state legislature to allow the freedmen to remain in Virginia to be with their families, who remained enslaved under Jefferson's heirs.[81]

Because Jefferson did not free Fossett's wife or their eight children, in the ensuing sale of slaves, they were sold to four different men. Fossett worked for years to buy his family members in order to provide for their freedom. While Jefferson made no provision for Sally Hemings, his daughter gave her "her time", enabling her to live freely with her sons in Charlottesville, where they bought a house. She lived to see a grandchild born free in the house her sons owned

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

Symmetry wrote:Hemings was never a free woman in Jefferson's lifetime. He didn't even free her in his will.

Wrong. She was free at the time she conceived her first child.

Sally Hemings remained in France (where slavery was illegal) for 26 months. Jefferson paid wages to her and James while they were in Paris. He paid Sally Hemings the equivalent of $2 a month. In comparison, he paid his Parisian scullion $2.50 a month, and James Hemings $4 a month as chef in training.

Symmetry wrote:Hemings was never a free woman in Jefferson's lifetime. He didn't even free her in his will.

Wrong. She was free at the time she conceived her first child.

Sally Hemings remained in France (where slavery was illegal) for 26 months. Jefferson paid wages to her and James while they were in Paris. He paid Sally Hemings the equivalent of $2 a month. In comparison, he paid his Parisian scullion $2.50 a month, and James Hemings $4 a month as chef in training.

Your timeline is flawed. France abolished slavery in its colonies in 1794, and properly abolished it in 1848. Jefferson returned to the US in 1789. If you have evidence that slavery was illegal in France before then, I'm willing to look at it.

At this point I would not be surprised if that came up as a genuine argument.

We've already had:

1) She wasn't a slave. (She was)2) He freed her. (He didn't)3) She was his mistress. (He was her master)4) He can't have raped her because America won the war of 1812. (Baffling)5) She freely chose it because she was free in France. (She was not)6) She must have wanted it. (Eurgh- not sure why this still turns up as a valid argument in discussions of rape)7) She wasn't considered a child. (Contemporary sources disagree)8 ) Admitting that he raped his slave would invalidate his other achievements. (Not really, I've never been a fan of biography as hagiography)

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

At this point I would not be surprised if that came up as a genuine argument.

We've already had:

1) She wasn't a slave. (She was)2) He freed her. (He didn't)3) She was his mistress. (He was her master)4) He can't have raped her because America won the war of 1812. (Baffling)5) She freely chose it because she was free in France. (She was not)6) She must have wanted it. (Eurgh- not sure why this still turns up as a valid argument in discussions of rape)7) She wasn't considered a child. (Contemporary sources disagree)8 ) Admitting that he raped his slave would invalidate his other achievements. (Not really, I've never been a fan of biography as hagiography)

At this point I would not be surprised if that came up as a genuine argument.

We've already had:

1) She wasn't a slave. (She was)2) He freed her. (He didn't)3) She was his mistress. (He was her master)4) He can't have raped her because America won the war of 1812. (Baffling)5) She freely chose it because she was free in France. (She was not)6) She must have wanted it. (Eurgh- not sure why this still turns up as a valid argument in discussions of rape)7) She wasn't considered a child. (Contemporary sources disagree)8 ) Admitting that he raped his slave would invalidate his other achievements. (Not really, I've never been a fan of biography as hagiography)

Symmetry raped Sally Hemings who raped Thomas Jefferson.

I think the Nazi dude tried that argument. Gotta be honest, I don't pay attention to him much anymore though.

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

thegreekdog wrote:When Symmetry, Neoteny, and I all agree, that answer is probably accurate.

I think the resistance here is a combination of "Thomas Jefferson was a great political mind, therefore he could not be a rapist" and "Shit, I know I'm wrong, but I'm going to dig in my heels."

There's a gap in the certainty which you three aren't willing to admit. I'm okay with saying, "gee, there is this unknown factor which denies us absolute certainty, thus soundness." You three brilliant minds are all like, "lololol certainty schmertainty, don't need that anymore."

thegreekdog wrote:When Symmetry, Neoteny, and I all agree, that answer is probably accurate.

I think the resistance here is a combination of "Thomas Jefferson was a great political mind, therefore he could not be a rapist" and "Shit, I know I'm wrong, but I'm going to dig in my heels."

There's a gap in the certainty which you three aren't willing to admit. I'm okay with saying, "gee, there is this unknown factor which denies us absolute certainty, thus soundness." You three brilliant minds are all like, "lololol certainty schmertainty, don't need that anymore."

thegreekdog wrote:When Symmetry, Neoteny, and I all agree, that answer is probably accurate.

I think the resistance here is a combination of "Thomas Jefferson was a great political mind, therefore he could not be a rapist" and "Shit, I know I'm wrong, but I'm going to dig in my heels."

There's a gap in the certainty which you three aren't willing to admit. I'm okay with saying, "gee, there is this unknown factor which denies us absolute certainty, thus soundness." You three brilliant minds are all like, "lololol certainty schmertainty, don't need that anymore."

What are some things you are absolutely certain about, BBS?

My dick in your sandwich.

Doorknobs, my typing on this keyboard, etc. I'm not a radical skeptic.

To be fair, the opposing argument seems to boil down, to me, to "we can't know for sure," which is sort of the point. Hemings was not free to go to the police or take many means to stop Jefferson if she was so inclined. Again, while it is possible, maybe even likely, though I doubt it, that Hemings was totally into Jefferson's wrinkly white ass, it does not change the broader context of slavery. And though I think a modern court could probably get a conviction out of it, depending on several factors, just because we aren't absolutely sure she would have never given her consent, does not really affect the fact that it was a severe abuse of power by Jefferson, and, due to the coercion + sex aspect, definitely rape.

Neoteny wrote:"We can't know for sure," also sounds like a limp-wristed "she was asking for it," to me. I separate that statement because it may be an unfair one to make. It just gives me the same heebeejeebees.

Aye it was those arguments that made me break my cool (not that I had much).

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

Symmetry wrote:Your timeline is flawed. France abolished slavery in its colonies in 1794, and properly abolished it in 1848. Jefferson returned to the US in 1789. If you have evidence that slavery was illegal in France before then, I'm willing to look at it.

My "evidence" is the very same website YOU posted to support your position that Sally was not free to choose that indicated slavery was illegal in France at the time Sally was there with Jefferson.

If you're saying YOUR evidence is flawed, we toss out all of your statements and are left with, Sally had the opportunity to flee when traveling to, and in, Europe, and did not choose to do so.

Symmetry wrote:Your timeline is flawed. France abolished slavery in its colonies in 1794, and properly abolished it in 1848. Jefferson returned to the US in 1789. If you have evidence that slavery was illegal in France before then, I'm willing to look at it.

My "evidence" is the very same website YOU posted to support your position that Sally was not free to choose that indicated slavery was illegal in France at the time Sally was there with Jefferson.

If you're saying YOUR evidence is flawed, we toss out all of your statements and are left with, Sally had the opportunity to flee when traveling to, and in, Europe, and did not choose to do so.

I'm sorry- I've given you ample opportunity to provide an argument. You provide only bluster.

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

thegreekdog wrote:When Symmetry, Neoteny, and I all agree, that answer is probably accurate.

I think the resistance here is a combination of "Thomas Jefferson was a great political mind, therefore he could not be a rapist" and "Shit, I know I'm wrong, but I'm going to dig in my heels."

There's a gap in the certainty which you three aren't willing to admit. I'm okay with saying, "gee, there is this unknown factor which denies us absolute certainty, thus soundness." You three brilliant minds are all like, "lololol certainty schmertainty, don't need that anymore."

As far as I can tell, Conquer Club (and history) are unfortunately not courts of law. While I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Thomas Jefferson was a rapist, in a civil court I would win.

The woman was a slave.The woman had sex with the man who owner her.Slavery is a coercive environment.Therefore, the woman was coerced into having sex.Therefore, Thomas Jefferson was a rapist.

thegreekdog wrote:When Symmetry, Neoteny, and I all agree, that answer is probably accurate.

I think the resistance here is a combination of "Thomas Jefferson was a great political mind, therefore he could not be a rapist" and "Shit, I know I'm wrong, but I'm going to dig in my heels."

There's a gap in the certainty which you three aren't willing to admit. I'm okay with saying, "gee, there is this unknown factor which denies us absolute certainty, thus soundness." You three brilliant minds are all like, "lololol certainty schmertainty, don't need that anymore."

As far as I can tell, Conquer Club (and history) are unfortunately not courts of law. While I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Thomas Jefferson was a rapist, in a civil court I would win.

The woman was a slave.The woman had sex with the man who owner her.Slavery is a coercive environment.Therefore, the woman was coerced into having sex.Therefore, Thomas Jefferson was a rapist.

Nope. According to the sites about Sally, at the time she and Jefferson first made any baby, she was in France at a time when slavery was illegal and could have petitioned to stay in France rather than return to Virginia.

That she was being paid for her work in France indicates she was NOT being treated as a slave in France.

Also according to those sites she made a bargain with Jefferson that she would return with him provided he freed their offspring when those children came of age.

Someone in a coercive environment enough to imply Jefferson must have raped her would NOT have been in an environment to make that sort of bargain.

Since she did make that bargain, (according to the site which indicates this is verbal per her children since Sally herself left no written records of it) that implies she was free to choose, free to say no, thus was not coerced, thus Jefferson is not a rapist.

thegreekdog wrote:When Symmetry, Neoteny, and I all agree, that answer is probably accurate.

I think the resistance here is a combination of "Thomas Jefferson was a great political mind, therefore he could not be a rapist" and "Shit, I know I'm wrong, but I'm going to dig in my heels."

There's a gap in the certainty which you three aren't willing to admit. I'm okay with saying, "gee, there is this unknown factor which denies us absolute certainty, thus soundness." You three brilliant minds are all like, "lololol certainty schmertainty, don't need that anymore."

As far as I can tell, Conquer Club (and history) are unfortunately not courts of law. While I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Thomas Jefferson was a rapist, in a civil court I would win.

The woman was a slave.The woman had sex with the man who owner her.Slavery is a coercive environment.Therefore, the woman was coerced into having sex.Therefore, Thomas Jefferson was a rapist.

Nope. According to the sites about Sally, at the time she and Jefferson first made any baby, she was in France at a time when slavery was illegal and could have petitioned to stay in France rather than return to Virginia.

That she was being paid for her work in France indicates she was NOT being treated as a slave in France.

Also according to those sites she made a bargain with Jefferson that she would return with him provided he freed their offspring when those children came of age.

Someone in a coercive environment enough to imply Jefferson must have raped her would NOT have been in an environment to make that sort of bargain.

Since she did make that bargain, (according to the site which indicates this is verbal per her children since Sally herself left no written records of it) that implies she was free to choose, free to say no, thus was not coerced, thus Jefferson is not a rapist.

I'm not sure your brand has much credit here anymore, dude.

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein