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Did you look yet at the things I pointed out in the Clementi? That will give you an idea of what to look for.

Yes, I was just getting on that.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Listen again to the recurrence of these little seeds that give this piece its unity, its sameness, as you play it or listen to it. They will register more clearly and sound will start to become or a more useful tool in your later analyses. It's easier to recognise a motif or theme slowed down than it is to see a group of quavers changed into crotchets. You might even recognise some of them in the next two movements.

OK, prep yourself now for a flawless interpretation of Menuet forthcoming ...

M2 is important measure and has variances throughout all movements. Obviously I did not catch this, but see the similarities (not sure hearing them all) in the corresponding measures you have pointed out.

Can you please explain ...

"Rising arpeggio at start, cf. falling arpeggio at start of allegro"

I'm not seeing or finding this the way I'm reading.

Sorry for lame response. I went over this so much today ... then had to take a break. Wish I could tell you I am hearing everything loud and clear, but not so much.

This arpeggio is so much easier to hear than it is to see because the principal notes come on the beat but visually they're surrounded by the dotted quaver/semiqvr rhythm. If I might borrow keystring's technical notation here I hear: da-DE-DUM, da-de-DUM, da-de-DUM contracted to ti-dum, dum, dum.

In the menuet I hear the first three notes duplicating this (I can hear the bass note as part of the phrase easier than I can see it), it's an octave drop without the inbetween note, just the slow ti-dum, dum. The M2 figure is the allegro's M3&4 figure (again incorporating the bass and easier to hear than see). M3&4 are the allegro's M6&7, M5 is M2 again but instead of anouncing the previous phrase now leads into the allegro's closing theme. It's easier to hear the variation than to see it on the page.

So the first half of the minuet is a gentle variation in 3/4 time of the allegro's exposition without the second theme. The second half starts with an inversion of the first half, M13 = M5 and the coda restore G major. Notice the menuet is in binary form:||: D - G :|||: Am - G :||

The Andante begins with a slower drawn out variation of the descending arpeggio, using a full two bars, the second two bars are the allegro's M7 again and another variation of the closing theme. The second half is the menuet with opening octave inverted and the 4-note figure reversed. We finish with another variation of the closing theme but note the phrase from M6 3/4 is a new figure, D-G-E-D repeated with variation - play this. You might hear it again. It's in binary form again with the same keys.

Onto the Allegro, and by this time I'm subconsciously expecting to start with another falling arpeggio, bit I'm presented with this upbeat rising one! How delightful! The second figure sounds familiar! Drop the C to a G and play it. You might recognise it. The M6 figure is the menuet's M2 with a quick recap of our closing theme again.

All four movements have such unity, such wholeness, they just BELONG together.

Originally Posted By: Greener

Sorry for lame response. I went over this so much today ... then had to

take a break. Wish I could tell you I am hearing everything loud and clear, but not so

much.

You're working like a Trojan, Jeff, and having to go it alone. I can whizz though this stuff quite quickly as I do it for every piece I learn and do a quick sketch of all the pieces I might learn in the future. I do a lot of rock and symphonic stuff, too. I also write my own material and this helps.

If you reduce the amout of time you spend each day on this you can put more effort into what you do and internalise the music more. That will make it easier to memorise and recognise the figures and themes and their variations and you'll hear them much better than when you see them. At the moment you've probably got a whole catalogue of figures from the Clementi still floating around with those of the Haydn and can't see one from t'other.

You might want to take a couple of days off, refresh your head and let the others catch up a bit. There seems to be very few participants for the amount of views the threads are getting and I doubt they're just enjoying the prose or the banter so the others may be trying to keep up with you and failing.

This arpeggio is so much easier to hear than it is to see because the principal notes come on the beat but visually they're surrounded by the dotted quaver/semiqvr rhythm.

In the menuet I hear the first three notes duplicating this (I can hear the bass note as part of the phrase easier than I can see it), it's an octave drop without the inbetween note, just the slow ti-dum, dum. The M2 figure is the allegro's M3&4 figure (again incorporating the bass and easier to hear than see). M3&4 are the allegro's M6&7, M5 is M2 again but instead of anouncing the previous phrase now leads into the allegro's closing theme. It's easier to hear the variation than to see it on the page.

OK, see where you mean with the descending opening arpeggio now. I was flipping back and forth with the two Allegro's and getting messed up. I will go back and secure all of this. I think playing it will help for hearing vs. multiple windows open and trying to hear little snippets at full tempo.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If you reduce the amout of time you spend each day on this you can put more effort into what you do and internalise the music more.

You might want to take a couple of days off, refresh your head and let the others catch up a bit.

Thanks, for the encouragement. I am determined to get this stuff. I will go over all of this until the light comes on. But, good advise and happy to at least slow down the tempo. Plus, I need to be careful I do not let my business suffer to much.

BTW, speaking of tempo. I am delighted to announce that I almost have the first A of Bach's little prelude no. 4 up to full tempo and mistake free. I really like what he is doing in M12-M16. This particular section is typical Bach to me and reminds me of others I have worked on. Seems these greats are also carrying ideas across other compositions.

OK, I've gone over this at the keyboard now and puzzle pieces are coming together, I think. I still have more to do though, so, I'm not quite ready for any skill testing questions. As it is, you are quite right that this is a far bit easier to play by reading then say, the Bach preludes.

At any rate, excited to move forward. Where is everybody? We were about to fall of the first page here and can't let that happen.

How do we proceed from here?

BTW, I will be offline again this weekend (well, at least until late Sunday afternoon) so, otherwise only have a bit of time today to stir the pot again.

I got run over by a truck (metaphorically speaking) for the first two pieces, and then could never get motivated to go over old ground to catch up. Maybe I'll be able to get in on the ground floor with Clementi 2.

Just knowing that it's a Sonatina, and seeing from Greener's Youtube title that it's in G major, my expectations are:

2-4 movements.

First movement in a cut-down sonata-allegro form, at a fast tempo:Exposition: Start in G with one theme, modulate to D for a second theme. Then repeat this whole section.Development: Play with fragments of the themes in various keys, either established or fleeting. (Cut-down shows itself here, where not too much development happens.)Recapitulation: Restate both themes, both of them in G this time.

Second movement: slow.

Third movement: fast again.

Fourth movement (if there is one): another fast one.

Since it's Clementi, I'm expecting a thin texture with lots of twiddly bits running up and down in eighth notes. Actually, come to think of it, that's what Beethoven's Sonatinas are like too. So maybe this texture is a characteristic of Sonatinas overall.

OK, that's all without looking at or listening to the music. Now to listen and have a look, and see where my expectations are met, exceeded, or overturned.

I say this, not to try to guess what this is like without listening/looking, but rather to illustrate the expectations that are built up through experience. (Granted, I haven't got the widest experience -- maybe after we finish all six Clementi's I'll have revised expectations.)

Aurally: listened to this several times. Three movements, fast, slow, fast, each in a different time signature.

First movement:

I can't aurally catch the expected modulation from tonic to dominant in the exposition. After several listens, I can hear all the sections though: the opening 8 bar theme, the continuation and repeat of the exposition, the change to the development, the change back to the recapitulation, and the repeat of the development-recapitulation section.

I wasn't expecting the development-recapitulation section to repeat, but for the small scale of a sonatina, makes sense. Now I am curious as to whether this is common in sonatinas, or at least in Clementi sonatinas.

I can hear a distinct shift to a wierd sound at 0:47 where the development starts. Did it go into minor? I think so, but I'm not sure aurally. Also I can't tell if there are further modulations, or if the development stays in one key. But I am pleased that I can hear that something shifted, and in a big way.

I can hear that the end of the development just before 1:02 sounds very open-ended. So I'm expecting it's not a V-I cadence, but I won't know until I look at the score what it is. Then there's a silent pause, and the recapitulation begins. I'm not familiar enough with it to be able to catch how the bridge changes to stay in tonic instead of going to dominant as in the exposition.

The recapitulation ends with a more emphatic final chord than the exposition had.

I hear the piece in 2/4, with lots of sixteenth notes, as I expected. I know I said eighth notes before, but I was thinking in either cut-time or a very fast 4/4.

All of this is without looking at the score yet; I wanted to explore purely aurally and find out what I could hear before looking at the score.

The modulation is hard to catch if you hear relatively like I do. I can do it now by fixing the pitch of the tonic or dominant note, and then noting that the pitch that was dominant now seems to be the tonic pitch later. It works for me with my freaky hearing. It may not work for someone else.

Where you hear something weird, I think this is where you are hearing the mode change (major to minor). Consider that a mode is also a mood or colour. So you're cluing in to something. The impression might be, "same thing as before, but it's wearing a different colour, or gives off a different feeling." If after this you look at the score, maybe you will start meshing what you know in theory and from looking at music, with what you are hearing.

All of this is without looking at the score yet; I wanted to explore purely aurally and find out what I could hear before looking at the score.

In contrast, my analysis approach so far has been primarily from the score (sitting on a bus for 2 hours yesterday, and again today ... what a relief to be home ... although the fair was fun and I didn't fall off any rides) and have just now gone back to verify, and think I'm OK (or hopefully close.)

Everything you are saying, PS88 is pretty much lining up with where I was going. Hopefully we also concur with the same places:

A is the exposition and it ends at the double bar. B is the development and recapitulation and it begins at the double bar.

A cursory glance at the score thus shows that the exposition finishes partway through M22.

This sonatina does not begin with an intro but sets out on the first subject. We have a phrase here taking up four measures, which is then repeated with a modified close on the dominant (a V-I cadence) in M8. The question is whether the second subject, which starts in M8, finishes at the double bar or in M18 where a closing theme begins. There isn't a right or wrong answer, btw.

This first subject material does not repeat in M12. I suspect a problem with the Toronto buses or delayed reaction to devilish fair rides.

After the double bar we are in the development section and what is of interest here requires our analytical skills. What keys does the composer go through and where does the material come from? The exposition will include much of the material but we need to be open to new material emerging.

Whenever you start right into your analysis, it always spells trouble for me.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

You are right with the recapitulation.

Thank goodness I had something right.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

After the double bar we are in the development section and what is of interest here requires our analytical skills. What keys does the composer go through and where does the material come from? The exposition will include much of the material but we need to be open to new material emerging.

OK, please leave with me a moment. I had this all prepared, but I'm a littler nervous about releasing it now, just yet. So will go back and double check a few things.

M25,27,28 form a threefold copy of M3/M4 (1st subj, 1st phrase)M29 = M9 in reverse, leading to second half of developmentM30 cleverly uses M24 to tie the two halves togetherM31 begins a threefold copy of the second half of M9 overlapping withM32 = M9 in reverse, this time leading toM33,34,35 a threefold copy of M7/8 inverted (1st subj, 2nd phrase)M36 = M9 in reverse, this time leading to

M37 = recapitulation.

Note in recap the second phrase is played a fourth lower to bridge to the second subject in tonic.

On closer inspection there are four four-note figures used in the development.

The turn from M7 in M25Its inverse & reverse from M3 in M27-29 and M32-36The reverse of the end of M9 in M31 andThe four note rise from M10 LH in M29, M32 and M36

The only place you went wrong, Jeff, was in the recap'n which is bar for bar from M38=M1 with modifications in M49 and M55 that threw you a bit.

You considered M33-37 as new material (I suppose this could be considered the dominant pedal/preparation) but for me is still made up of previous material, M3 fig with inverse of M8.

Note that M24 is G#m7b5 (half diminished seventh on the leading note of A minor harmonic) but M30 introduces G major by stealth, using F#m7b5 (half diminished seventh on the leading note of G major), a chord alien to A minor, and moves to D major (chord not key) apparently heading for C#-D in M37 but stops and pauses on the unexpected C natural, the subdominant of the home key, signalling the return of G major and beginning the recapitulation.

Also conceptually, the development begins at the double bar. It may develop material from the exposition (here with modulating bar 1 to A minor) or it may introduce new material (not the case here unless you want to consider M24 LH as new material).

In binary form we noted the two halves as A and B. In sonata form we use a and b to mark the first and second subjects and tend not to use A and B so much; their significance is greatly reduced since we can refer by name to the exposition, development and recapitulation.

Couldn't M31 be looked at as a double use of the second half of M3? Or, is there a reason we would prefer m9 second half reverse?

ON SECOND THOUGHT: OK, I think I see why now. The notes in four note group (although the pattern looks similar) need to be separated by the exact same intervals. Is this why?

It's me being picky, Jeff.

I've played through this reading the semiq. groups as quaver pairs on the beat. Those notes tend to either duplicate the quaver pair at the start of M3 or the one at the start of M4. It makes a difference to me.

You may prefer to hear them all as a single rhythmic unit. We don't know how Clementi saw them or conjured them up. We can only use our own imaginations and interpretations.

What I'm trying to do is make you aware of patterns and figures; elements that give a piece unity. Look at how he manipulates them. And how he is using them.

Remember the tension and release of earlier pieces, and the building up of expectations? Look how he's put these elements together.

In M30 he announces the return of G major without sounding it.Then he begins a sequence in M31 beginning the half bars on B and A so that we expect a tonic G in M32. But he makes E minor in the bass and finishes with a run up to the dominant D major in M33. In M33-36 he's building up with the first note of each bar from the D towards a tonic G using a rising figure to increase the anticipation and build the tension. By M37 you're desperate for G and he hangs you out with a sparse dominant 7th. When the recapitulation starts on the tonic key it's such a joyful return but still he holds out till the end of M38 to give us that G an octave higher. I really savour that C natural in M37.

If you can't hear these things and see how he does it, how can you give the piece its best interpretation?

Or if you're just listening how much more can you enjoy it when you can feel the excitement and anticipation of events?

If you can't hear these things and see how he does it, how can you give the piece its best interpretation?

Or if you're just listening how much more can you enjoy it when you can feel the excitement and anticipation of events?

I shall count myself among the converted.

Are we complete with first Allegretto? What? I see we have another Allegretto now. What does Allegretto even mean? Thanks google ... "fairly lively and fast"

OK, so are we continuing with the lively and fast now, or shall we wait for others? At any rate and in preparation, I see only 28 measures in this 2nd movement (that is if I counted correctly this time) and no repeats. So, one quarter the length of first movement.

I understand there is likely to be some re-use of material from 1st movement (although it does not appear to be waving a red flag) but otherwise should I be expecting an exposition, development and recapitulation again? Just trying to avoid setting myself up for disaster.