Ah yes, "investment" art. My ILs used to travel a lot, and they loved to buy art when they traveled. That's great--their prerogative, and I think they enjoy the things that they have bought. Unfortunately, they also love to brag about how much all of this stuff is going to be worth for my kids. Stuff like spectacularly expensive rugs which their dog has wrecked, ceramics of dubious origin, and some oil paintings that are "guaranteed" to go up in value. FIL likes to point out how one of the paintings is going to be my kid's college fund. Said painting sits inches above the buffet where they pile wine, beer, and food during family get-togethers. We smile and nod and continue investing in the kid's 529.

Years ago, in-laws went on an artwork buying spree and bought various paintings and sculptures. They bragged that some of these pieces cost 10K or more but are a "great investment" and will be worth "a lot of money". Who really knows, but having been in the local gallery scene, DH really doubts it as he found markups to be totally insane and this was around the time his folks bought this stuff. These items were supposed to fund the grandkids' college but that never materialized sinceone grandkid did not go and the other funded it via other means.

But, they insist, these are still worth money!!! Now we will inherit them eventually and that will fund our retirement! We just continue to fund our retirement as per usual but SIL has totally bought into this idea that they are worth something but then again, the she thinks everything is worth money, down to the $10 Hallmark ornaments she gives at Christmas.

I don't know much about art, but I'd say those are only worth money, if you can find a real buyer for them. Who will pay what they are worth. And that can be the tricky part.

All kinds of "stuff" in general is going way down in value. I don't see the younger generation collecting lots of stuff in their homes. Like little figurines, trinkets, and ornaments. Remember how curio cabinets used to be popular? They look really outdated now in modern homes.

Years ago, in-laws went on an artwork buying spree and bought various paintings and sculptures. They bragged that some of these pieces cost 10K or more but are a "great investment" and will be worth "a lot of money". Who really knows, but having been in the local gallery scene, DH really doubts it as he found markups to be totally insane and this was around the time his folks bought this stuff. These items were supposed to fund the grandkids' college but that never materialized sinceone grandkid did not go and the other funded it via other means.

But, they insist, these are still worth money!!! Now we will inherit them eventually and that will fund our retirement! We just continue to fund our retirement as per usual but SIL has totally bought into this idea that they are worth something but then again, the she thinks everything is worth money, down to the $10 Hallmark ornaments she gives at Christmas.

I don't know much about art, but I'd say those are only worth money, if you can find a real buyer for them. Who will pay what they are worth. And that can be the tricky part.

All kinds of "stuff" in general is going way down in value. I don't see the younger generation collecting lots of stuff in their homes. Like little figurines, trinkets, and ornaments. Remember how curio cabinets used to be popular? They look really outdated now in modern homes.

The trend seems to be toward minimalism.

That is the indeed the challenge, finding a real buyer with the money for these pieces of art. And listing with a seller who has a client base who may be interested, which of course will cost money, a seller will not help you sell for free. SIL thinks she is going to acquire great riches but the reality will probably prove to be quite different. DH is ready to tell her once the time comes that it's all hers and good luck. After downsizing his own stuff, he's not interested in acquiring any of his parents' things regardless of value.

Already I am finding a lot of items that were worth some money years ago isn't anymore. My sibs and I are working to clear out my late parents' home and there's a lot of antiques, depression glass , china, etc that was worth something back when it was bought but the market dropped out on those things years ago.

Makes me glad that we didn't buy a lot of this stuff myself though people thought we were weird or stingy at the time.

That is the indeed the challenge, finding a real buyer with the money for these pieces of art. And listing with a seller who has a client base who may be interested, which of course will cost money, a seller will not help you sell for free. SIL thinks she is going to acquire great riches but the reality will probably prove to be quite different. DH is ready to tell her once the time comes that it's all hers and good luck. After downsizing his own stuff, he's not interested in acquiring any of his parents' things regardless of value.

Already I am finding a lot of items that were worth some money years ago isn't anymore. My sibs and I are working to clear out my late parents' home and there's a lot of antiques, depression glass , china, etc that was worth something back when it was bought but the market dropped out on those things years ago.

I sold my mom's depression glass, china, some crystal about three years ago. And some of her figurine collection. But it took a long time to find the right buyer and multiple listings across Facebook and Craig's list. So it wasn't easy to sell that stuff! I also took a look at ebay listings and china, porcelain, crystal just aren't selling. The listings stay up forever with no bids. My mom had believed these things were so valuable that she actually hid them in her home.

I sold my mom's depression glass, china, some crystal about three years ago. And some of her figurine collection. But it took a long time to find the right buyer and multiple listings across Facebook and Craig's list. So it wasn't easy to sell that stuff! I also took a look at ebay listings and china, porcelain, crystal just aren't selling. The listings stay up forever with no bids. My mom had believed these things were so valuable that she actually hid them in her home.

That is really sad, so she got so caught up in the financial value of them that she couldn't enjoy the artistic value.

IMO, I think that getting kincaid paintings would have been enough justice on BIL's head.

+1 I haaaaate them. My IL's have a house full and keep buying them as "investments."

That's basically the situation here. MIL bought them as "investments" but she could only afford the mass produced ones. They're worth about 10% of what she paid, if that. She was trying to do right by her kids and grandkids but basically just destroyed her pension lump sum payout between the paintings and the silver "investment" coins. BIL seems to have inherited that mentality.

I really don't like them either. We took one as a remembrance of MIL. It's actually a nice looking lighthouse instead of a cottage and my dad liked lighthouses but it's not hanging yet because the frame is a tacky "gold" thing and we haven't decided if we're going to spring to get it reframed or not.

I've heard of people buying prints as wall art convinced that these will also function as small investments. After 20 or so years though some of these prints have sun damage. Its just ink on heavy paper after all.

Buying art as an investment requires a different approach. You need to buy only art that stands a chance of going up in value, you have to make sure that you'll be able to sell it again which requires that you keep proof of the art's provenance, and you need to ensure the art stays in the same condition it was in when you bought it. Miss even one of these steps, and you've bought the use of a decoration that has aesthetic value but nothing more.

Ah yes, "investment" art. My ILs used to travel a lot, and they loved to buy art when they traveled. That's great--their prerogative, and I think they enjoy the things that they have bought. Unfortunately, they also love to brag about how much all of this stuff is going to be worth for my kids. Stuff like spectacularly expensive rugs which their dog has wrecked, ceramics of dubious origin, and some oil paintings that are "guaranteed" to go up in value. FIL likes to point out how one of the paintings is going to be my kid's college fund. Said painting sits inches above the buffet where they pile wine, beer, and food during family get-togethers. We smile and nod and continue investing in the kid's 529.

Very wise of you. In fairness, if it wasn't for the hordes of people who do exactly as you describe, it wouldn't be possible for artists to sell enough work to feed themselves in significant enough numbers for one of them to beat the odds and become famous enough for their originals or limited-edition prints to become worth significantly more than what yousomeone else other than you paid for it.

IMO, I think that getting kincaid paintings would have been enough justice on BIL's head.

+1 I haaaaate them. My IL's have a house full and keep buying them as "investments."

That's basically the situation here. MIL bought them as "investments" but she could only afford the mass produced ones. They're worth about 10% of what she paid, if that. She was trying to do right by her kids and grandkids but basically just destroyed her pension lump sum payout between the paintings and the silver "investment" coins. BIL seems to have inherited that mentality.

I really don't like them either. We took one as a remembrance of MIL. It's actually a nice looking lighthouse instead of a cottage and my dad liked lighthouses but it's not hanging yet because the frame is a tacky "gold" thing and we haven't decided if we're going to spring to get it reframed or not.

I've heard of people buying prints as wall art convinced that these will also function as small investments. After 20 or so years though some of these prints have sun damage. Its just ink on heavy paper after all.

Buying art as an investment requires a different approach. You need to buy only art that stands a chance of going up in value, you have to make sure that you'll be able to sell it again which requires that you keep proof of the art's provenance, and you need to ensure the art stays in the same condition it was in when you bought it. Miss even one of these steps, and you've bought the use of a decoration that has aesthetic value but nothing more.

Ah yes, "investment" art. My ILs used to travel a lot, and they loved to buy art when they traveled. That's great--their prerogative, and I think they enjoy the things that they have bought. Unfortunately, they also love to brag about how much all of this stuff is going to be worth for my kids. Stuff like spectacularly expensive rugs which their dog has wrecked, ceramics of dubious origin, and some oil paintings that are "guaranteed" to go up in value. FIL likes to point out how one of the paintings is going to be my kid's college fund. Said painting sits inches above the buffet where they pile wine, beer, and food during family get-togethers. We smile and nod and continue investing in the kid's 529.

Very wise of you. In fairness, if it wasn't for the hordes of people who do exactly as you describe, it wouldn't be possible for artists to sell enough work to feed themselves in significant enough numbers for one of them to beat the odds and become famous enough for their originals or limited-edition prints to become worth significantly more than what yousomeone else other than you paid for it.

FTFY

Hmm, no, I am not going to steal the art. :) There have been some epic heists over the years; that wasn't me.

The only other free ways to get art are to receive it as a gift or to inherit it. The art I acquire those ways is seldom to my taste. Just because something's expensive doesn't mean I'll enjoy looking at it. For example, my entire family has a hard-on for Realism but I don't. So I've got several pieces in my collection that are probably objectively valuable but fugly to my eyes. Some of them I can't even justify displaying because they make me want to hurl. Are they genuine heirlooms that are increasing in value? Some of them, yes. Am I going to sell that shit once the person who gave it to me kicks off? Hell, yeah.

I find that the art I care enough to make or buy gives me far more satisfaction. Even a low satisfaction-to-dollar rate beats zero satisfaction and something taking up space in a closet or on my wall.

Unless a person's hair is on fire and they're in debt, art could sometimes be one of those things that can fit in a Mustachian lifestyle as an occasional indulgence or investment, provided it's acquired cheaply but honestly. The dollar figure may be low, but it will never be zero. The thing about art is that it takes time and resources to make. Materials aren't free and time is the one thing they don't make any more of. I don't mind paying the artist, or that artist's designated representative, fair value for the work.

I knew it was risky to quote that whole thread, so I'm not going to compound my error. My meaning was completely different from your take, Grim. I was referring to the people cited who buy "art" expecting it to appreciate wildly and tell their children and grandchildren it's going to be their inheritance. I'm not talking about stealing art. Whoa, that's not where I was going at all.

I knew it was risky to quote that whole thread, so I'm not going to compound my error. My meaning was completely different from your take, Grim. I was referring to the people cited who buy "art" expecting it to appreciate wildly and tell their children and grandchildren it's going to be their inheritance. I'm not talking about stealing art. Whoa, that's not where I was going at all.

Good cover Dicey. Now no-one will suspect that you and Grim are master criminal art thieves. ;-)

I knew it was risky to quote that whole thread, so I'm not going to compound my error. My meaning was completely different from your take, Grim. I was referring to the people cited who buy "art" expecting it to appreciate wildly and tell their children and grandchildren it's going to be their inheritance. I'm not talking about stealing art. Whoa, that's not where I was going at all.

Of course not! I deliberately went off on what I hoped would be a hilarious tangent. I should have used my "just kidding" font. Sorry for the misconception. And, yes, expecting mass produced art, plates, and figurines to appreciate is terrible but people are conned into doing it all the time because of the advertising.

I got the humor, Grim. What I wanted to make clear is that no self-respecting mustachian would be caught dead buying this stuff personally, except possibly used, for resale, if purchased cheaply enough. That's why I changed "you" to "someone else other than you", 'cuz we all know mustachians don't do that stupid shit.

As to those alleged art heists, I have no idea what Pw/F is talking about! 《wink, wink》

Bumping this thread for more stories. Plus, there is potential inheritance drama brewing in one branch of my family: the matriarch has only weeks to live, according to her doctors. The entire family has been coming over to say goodbye, including one long-estranged grown child. Almost everyone is touched by his coming forward to make peace with his mom, but I admit I'm a wee bit skeptical about his motives. While the grandchildren aren't necessarily expecting to inherit anything directly, the hope is that the will/trust is water-tight so that the prodigal son doesn't have grounds to contest the estate for months or years to come.

Ah, no. Likely legit. Making peace on the deathbed is a classic for a reason.

I found out that an elderly relative apologized to her son in her last week of life, for being physically and emotionally abusive to him when he was small (under 12). Shocked him, by it, actually. It was completely ignored and pretended to be "normal" until the last week of her life.

My aunt passed away last month from pneumonia. She lives on the other side of the country and my sister went to visit her when we first heard about the pneumonia. Aunt got a bit better and my sister flew back home after spending a few days there. My sister calls me a few days later in tears because my father called her to say my aunt hadn't eaten or drank in three days and was sure to die but that my father was flying back to Sydney anyway. So I buy a ticket and fly over to be with my aunt. When I get there no one but a nurse and a paramedic are in the room. I stay with my aunt and talk to her and after a few hours she passes, if I hadn't flown over she would have been alone apart from the nursing home staff. My sister told me that some sort of second cousin visited while she was there and the nursing staff told me this second cousin wanted to be there at the end. So I call her on the number my sister gave me but second cousin tells me she has already said her goodbyes and doesn't want to come back. I'm quite surprised by this but my sister tells me her husband is unwell. Anyhow I was glad to be with my aunt and I call my sister to let her know she passed and to relay the message. I have cut my father off years ago but my sister still has a close relationship (side note-he avoided paying child support by putting his money in an expensive art collection-he told me which paintings he intended to give to me, all ugly corporate pieces bought for the price of a new car each, many of the paintings have cracked because they haven't been looked after so probably worthless)

I later find out everyone is flying over for a memorial service(aunt was mustachian and didn't believe in fancy funerals-she donated her body to science), all these people who couldn't be bothered to visit her when she was dying. I barely know anyone apart from my aunt from that side of the family due to my parents divorce so decide not to go. I do give my half brother a speech to read on my behalf and here is where things get kind of gross. My aunt had in her possession an original draft of Australia's constitution. This draft also has hand written notes and annotations in it. I visited her before I moved overseas and she told me it was to be donated to the state library. While researching my speech I find an article from the library regarding a much smaller donation from my aunt, nothing about the constitution. I call them up and they say they haven't received it and I should make a formal enquiry. My sister had told me it was donated at the time she went into the nursing home. I receive correspondence from the library that they hadn't yet received it but had visited my aunt about donations while she was still deciding and they have copies but not the originals. My half brother was supposed to have sorted this out, there's a possibility it was accidentally thrown out but that is unlikely since it was well known about aunt's wishes and what documents she had. As I mentioned earlier I hardly know that side of the family but when I first visited my half brother he showed me around his Victorian mansion pointing out all the valuable heirlooms that belonged to my family including a pair of chippendale chairs. His wife basically does nothing beside fall asleep, social climb and live off her multimillion inheritance. I don't think she has ever had a job. Their son dropped out of his prep school and at one stage "earned a living" selling off his maternal grandfather's belongings. Now he works for my half brother being a generally incompetent feature at his company. I suspect the constitution was kept by my half brother so his wife could add another item to her collection to boast about. My brother had told me she had a huge fight with her sister when her mother passed away regarding those possessions.

The whole thing is so depressing more so because my aunt was actually an incredibly kind and wonderful woman. She was born in 1925 and had research published by the royal society of chemistry when she was only 22/23. My father's family were very wealthy but she was the only one who took that privilige and contributed something back to society. My father on the other hand laments that he spent all his inheritance divorcing my mother and even took my sister to show her the approx 40 million dollar waterfront land where he grew up. It really drives home that generally leaving your kids a large fortune makes them entitled and lazy. He still thinks I care about my inheritance and has tried to manipulate me with it, even after I cut him off he would send me letters about it and was furious I ignored them. Apparently my half sister also cut him off and told him she would donate her inheritance to the cat shelter. My sister also asked me to leave something out of my share of the estate to the second cousin.Second cousin receives nothing in the will and my sister thinks it would be kind to leave her something since apparently she visited her often. I don't know what to think about that, perhaps my perspective is clouded because I'm upset my aunt was left by herself to die without family. They had no idea I was coming so it would have only been nursing home staff. On the other hand if she did visit my aunt often and cared for her it would be a nice gesture. As it is I'm more inclined to give something to my aunt's favourite nurse who would have looked after her daily and cared for her. I'm still waiting to be given a copy of the will so I can bring up the constitution. I suspect nothing will come of it but at least I will have said something. It's really quite depressing, my aunt deserved so much better than this.

My husband's family is the complete opposite. He flew back to Europe before each grandparent died and the family all stayed with them to comfort them as they passed. None of his grandparents had money, they were all there because they love and respect each other. Hopefully my kids take after their paternal side, they have a great relationship with that side of the family so I hope they pick up their values.

Bit of background: my dad stopped speaking to his brother and sister probably 15 and 10 years ago respectively. They both live in the same state as their dad, but my immediate family all lived in a different state. Of the three, my dad was the one who took care of grandpa, making sure he was covered, paying for his house and all that even when my aunt moved in with grandpa rent free during her separation and eventual divorce. Grandpa didn't like the idea of my dad just giving him money so he signed promissory notes indicating that the money dad gave him would be paid back by grandpa's estate. The notes were clear and they were even mentioned in grandpa's will. Dad was supposed to be the executor of grandpa'a estate.

Fast forward to December 2015 and my dad passes away after a decently lengthy cancer battle that eventually went to his brain, making him bed ridden and not all with it. Grandpa is still living. My mom has decided she's going to enforce the promissory notes against grandpa's eventual estate, not because she'll need the money, but to prevent aunt and uncle, who suddenly reappeared to play the roles of grieving siblings at my dad's service, from getting the money. Mom thinks they don't know about the notes, I'm not too sure. Grandpa claims about six months before dad died, dad told him he was ripping up the notes and not to worry about them.

Not a week after my dad's funeral, we learn that uncle has taken grandpa to get his will redrafted. Not looking forward to the near certain drama over this. Even without the notes, the estate won't be worth much. I've been trying to convince my mom it's not worth fighting with my aunt and uncle but I've gotten nowhere.

Wow, I read this with interest expecting the aunt and uncle to be trouble, but I did not expect that twist from Grandpa!

Yea, we're not sure when this would have happened because those six months would have been when dad was at his least coherent and was only really able to have conversations for a few minutes at a time. He never mentioned this to my mom which is what makes it suspicious because when he was with it, they talked a lot about future plans since it was clear he was deteriorating pretty rapidly.

Uncle and dad also owned a building in the city in which my parents live, even though they didn't speak, dad would still send him his portion of the rental income every month or so. Again, less than a week after dad's death, uncle starts hounding mom about selling the building because uncle wants his money from it. Mom eventually bought uncle out, so that headache has ended fortunately. It's just going to be a nightmare.

And I'm sure if one of my cousins or even my aunt/uncle was telling this story, it'd be all about how my mom is an evil in-law. Really, it's just a crappy situation all around because my dad was supposed to be here to mediate with his family and now my mom is left doing it and she never really got along with her in-laws in the first place.

And here we are with more drama on this one! Grandpa passed a few weeks ago. Uncle had taken him to redraft the will. About a month before he passes, Grandpa and Uncle have a huge knock down, drag out, fight and Grandpa stops speaking to Uncle, has Aunt and Aunt's Husband (who have been taking care of him) to rewrite the will and take out Uncle. Uncle is now apparently contesting EVERYTHING and thinks that everybody (me, my sisters, my cousins who are aunt's daughters) will side with him. He's delusional. Uncle and Grandpa weren't speaking at the time Grandpa died, but Uncle spoke at his funeral like he was a loving son and they were incredibly close. It was worse than he was at my father's funeral and I'm disgusted with him.

I wondered if this always interesting thread would resurface. Happy/sad to see it has. I'm co-executor and co-trustee of me parents will and trust. It is not going well. I'm waiting until the estate is settled to share the detsils. It's a total pain in the ass and parts of it ain't pretty.

As to being there at the exact moment of death, I have been there for several friends. When my parents were dying, I visited as often as I could, but was not able to be there at the very end for either of them. When my dad was going, all of my other sibs were there. They knew I wasn't coming, because I had been there recently, but he was hanging on, so they called and put him on the phone. I told him I knew I was his favorite (long standing joke) and that I loved him and that it was okay to go be with mom, we would all be fine. He was gone within hours.

Why wasn't I there? My MIL has Alzheimer's and lives with us. My parents lived seven+ hours away. It sucked, but MIL's needs had to take precedence. My mom used to say life is for the living. She was right. She also said, "Celebrate the good stuff in life." Smart woman.

Chouchouu, there are two sides to every story. Being there for someone's very last breath is less important than being there all through their life. Try not to judge the people who were not there at the exact moment of her passing so harshly.

More a drama averted story. My FIL had five kids, of varying competence & capacity, with some bad dynamics. Any will would have been challenged, pretty much just for the sake of it. So his solution was simple, he gave it all away to them while he was alive - gifts can't be challenged. When he died, all that needed to be split up was personal effects, which, by miraculous agreement, it was decided the grandkids would get their pick of. Helped with the inheritance taxes too...

About being there at the moment of death, often it can be a judgement call on part of the family/friends based on the information at hand. My father passed away a few months ago. He was in hospice and due to distance from home I stayed the night in his room. My sisters went home to my one sister's house which was about 10 minutes away. Nursing staff assessed that he could probably make it through the night but probably not the next day, meaning the end was close but not imminent. He passed very early in the morning and I just happened to come back into the room from getting coffee just a couple of minutes before he died. My sisters made it to the hospice 10 minutes later. It was just how it went.

When my mom passed two years before, my sisters were there but I was not. My mom had just been admitted to hospice care that day and it was expected she still had some time, so based on this, I made plans to come down the next morning and stay for however long as necessary. I had seen her a couple of days before. She died a few hours later, according to my sisters things declined very quickly and unexpectedly. Again it was just how it went.

I recently learned that my sister has been very angry that I was not there at the time of our mother's death. There's no explaining to her that one cannot anticipate exactly how things are going to go. It's not in our control. But there's nothing any of us can do about it now. I wasn't as enmeshed with my parents as my sisters were (long story) but it was not like I was never there. And I certainly got more involved during my parents' final illnesses. Both parents knew I was there and were fine with what I could do for them.

Back to inheritance drama, there has not been any but my folks divided things equally. My sister (yep, the angry one) is executor of my parents' estate and things thus far things have surprisingly gone OK with her. If one sister wants something, she brings it up and we all discuss. One sister and myself agreed to let another sister have my parents' car. Still the house to sell though and things could get interesting when it comes to doing that. Not from a fairness perspective, but from the perspective of cleanout and prepping the house for sale.

I'm upset because my father knew she was dying, told my sister so, and still left. I wasn't sure about the second cousin, so it's nice to have a different perspective on that. It just came across to me that they didn't seem to think it necessary to have a family member there to comfort her in her last moments, knowing that it was imminent. I don't think it's necessary to have the whole family there but if someone is all alone I think an effort should be made. I actually wouldn't have travelled across the country if there was someone else to be there with her. I just felt she shouldn't be alone at the end and it was heartless for people to leave her alone knowing she would soon pass.

I'm upset because my father knew she was dying, told my sister so, and still left. I wasn't sure about the second cousin, so it's nice to have a different perspective on that. It just came across to me that they didn't seem to think it necessary to have a family member there to comfort her in her last moments, knowing that it was imminent. I don't think it's necessary to have the whole family there but if someone is all alone I think an effort should be made. I actually wouldn't have travelled across the country if there was someone else to be there with her. I just felt she shouldn't be alone at the end and it was heartless for people to leave her alone knowing she would soon pass.

In one of the deaths that I attended, my dying friend's daughter was there too. We sat vigil at her dad's bedside in the hospital. There was a cot, and she had stretched out to get some rest. When his breathing changed and I sensed the end was near, I woke her up. She got up, put on her shoes and left the room. When she returned, he was gone. I know there were a lot of hard feelings between them, and maybe she just couldn't face the actual moment of his death. I'll never know. Later, a nurse took me aside. She'd noticed the daughter leave the room and told me that sometimes people just can't handle the final moments. In the end, she has to live with her decision. It is not for me to judge.

One more thing, from my admittedly small sample, is that often a person's spirit seems to be "gone" before they actually stop breathing. I'm not sure how much impact being there for someone's final breath has on them.

I'm upset because my father knew she was dying, told my sister so, and still left. I wasn't sure about the second cousin, so it's nice to have a different perspective on that. It just came across to me that they didn't seem to think it necessary to have a family member there to comfort her in her last moments, knowing that it was imminent. I don't think it's necessary to have the whole family there but if someone is all alone I think an effort should be made. I actually wouldn't have travelled across the country if there was someone else to be there with her. I just felt she shouldn't be alone at the end and it was heartless for people to leave her alone knowing she would soon pass.

In one of the deaths that I attended, my dying friend's daughter was there too. We sat vigil at her dad's bedside in the hospital. There was a cot, and she had stretched out to get some rest. When his breathing changed and I sensed the end was near, I woke her up. She got up, put on her shoes and left the room. When she returned, he was gone. I know there were a lot of hard feelings between them, and maybe she just couldn't face the actual moment of his death. I'll never know. Later, a nurse took me aside. She'd noticed the daughter leave the room and told me that sometimes people just can't handle the final moments. In the end, she has to live with her decision. It is not for me to judge.

One more thing, from my admittedly small sample, is that often a person's spirit seems to be "gone" before they actually stop breathing. I'm not sure how much impact being there for someone's final breath has on them.

Just another related story...

When my grandmother passed away her 5 children were all in and out of the hospital with her the previous couple weeks, as well as myself and multiple cousins. It was important to one of my aunts that she not be alone at any moment. She hung on a lot longer than anyone expected and finally passed away in the only 10 min period that she was alone when one aunt went outside for a cigarette before my mom arrived to relieve her early one morning. Some like to think that she was hanging on so long just because her kids were there and only when she was alone could she relax and go.

Personally I couldn't be there again after I spent an afternoon earlier in the week and said goodbye, and luckily for me my mom understood and there was zero pressure for me to be there.

I chose to leave my mom's bedside about 45 minutes before she passed. I had not slept much and had been engaged something that was very emotionally draining for the two days just before. My brother and sister stayed when my DH and I went home. I still feel a little bit bad about it, but she was already unresponsive when we left and we knew she wasn't alone. My brother and sister were totally ok with us going.

About being there at the moment of death, often it can be a judgement call on part of the family/friends based on the information at hand. My father passed away a few months ago. He was in hospice and due to distance from home I stayed the night in his room. My sisters went home to my one sister's house which was about 10 minutes away. Nursing staff assessed that he could probably make it through the night but probably not the next day, meaning the end was close but not imminent. He passed very early in the morning and I just happened to come back into the room from getting coffee just a couple of minutes before he died. My sisters made it to the hospice 10 minutes later. It was just how it went.

When my mom passed two years before, my sisters were there but I was not. My mom had just been admitted to hospice care that day and it was expected she still had some time, so based on this, I made plans to come down the next morning and stay for however long as necessary. I had seen her a couple of days before. She died a few hours later, according to my sisters things declined very quickly and unexpectedly. Again it was just how it went.

I recently learned that my sister has been very angry that I was not there at the time of our mother's death. There's no explaining to her that one cannot anticipate exactly how things are going to go. It's not in our control. But there's nothing any of us can do about it now. I wasn't as enmeshed with my parents as my sisters were (long story) but it was not like I was never there. And I certainly got more involved during my parents' final illnesses. Both parents knew I was there and were fine with what I could do for them.

I do believe sometimes people may not want someone there at the last breath. When my grandmother (dadís mom) had a stroke, my mother quit her job and took care of her. For 7 years, my mother, dad, or my siblings would visit her every day. There was less than 10 days in those seven years where someone wasnít there bringing her and visiting (she hated the food at the nursing home).

There were many times where something happened and the staff thought it was the last days, and we would stay almost the clock, and she would pull through. On her actually last days, we someone was there the hpwhole time, she had pneumonia and her lungs ere filling up, it was for sure. We hadnít left the hopistal, and someone had to go home to tak car off the kids. Due to logistics, this was the one of the few times someone wasnít right there. The next shift was literally turning around to go to the hospital, and we got a call that she had passed away.

We all were there to support it other and went back together as a group. We felt awful we couldnít be there for just those few minutes. I remember the nurses t was like my grandmother didnít want us there in her final minutes and waited until we were all gone. As others said, itís what you do leadon up to those moments.

Currently, we are in another situation where my mom has had a stroke. We have taken care of her every day and is now in a home. Prior to this when she was stable, we had had intentional trip plannd. We had just put deposits on the trip when but not travel insurance yet, when she had another fall. Her condition is now considered a preexisting condition and trip interruption insurance and cancellation is more than $10,000. We have spoken as a family with my siblings and parents on what to do. We have agreed that it is not worth to get the insurance and if something should happen on our trips with my parents, the siblings who are here will take care of everything, and the travelling siblings will not be notified until their return. We all agreed that we are doing everything right now, and need to go our trips without guilt and cannot hold that part of our lives. It was a really important discussion to have but I feel good about to.

Thank you for your story, Plugging along. Count me as another one who would rather not have relatives and friends in the room when I pass. The thought of people grasping at my hands, weeping or moaning, and staring at my face counting my breaths is disturbing and honestly a little ghoulish, to me. I'd prefer to go peacefully in bed in a room by myself. I don't want my loved ones' last image of me as me dying.

There must be plenty of others who feel the same, because I've heard many versions of that same scenario of the person dying as soon as there is no one in their room, for however brief a time.

Iím sure there are different experiences. We (my 2 sisters, my Mom, and I) were in the room with my Dad when he passed. We spent the hours reminiscing and, believe it or not, often laughing. Not that we were raucous, but the nurses didnít dread coming into the room.

His breathing slowed, then he went pale as his heart stopped. No drama.

We have some strife right now. By we I mean my spouse. This feels really long, but here goes!

FIL passed away after a short bout with cancer last year. There was six months warning, no surprise, he always expected to go relatively young because this cancer runs in his family. He remarried 9 years before, and although she was much younger and is nothing but an alcoholic party girl well past her prime, she made him happy and DW and SIL accepted her. DW is also adopted, this will come into play later.

FIL was wealthy once upon a time -- he retired early at 45 (planned out because he expected to die young) and then spent the next 22 years traveling or living in the family cabin playing golf. He also made sure his ex (DW and SIL's mom) was taken care of after the divorce. It's very likely there was little left and both DW and SIL felt any cash left should go to Step Mom since she was the spouse and he was intestate. Oddly, there was no will which is very unlike FIL, a finance junkie, but c'est la vie.

The problem is the cabin. Grandpa built the cabin many moons ago on a bit a land. A few moons later a golf course was put in. Gramps owned five lots with the cabin on one, and they went up quite a bit in value once the area turned into a gold resort in the mountains. This was all left to FIL, with the intention of it staying in the family. FIL and step mom were living there full time, and neither sibling wanted her booted out. With no will, the state's law bequeathed the property to all three more or less equally (I can't remember the percentages off the top of my head). No biggie, both siblings said let step mom live there until she dies, then we get to keep the family cabin in the family.

Step mom hired a lawyer to get full ownership. The first attempt was to disown DW as an heir since she is adopted. Didn't work, all that paperwork from 35 years ago was in order. Then drunken phone calls to SIL began, all of them boiling down to her (step mom's) love for FIL was something SIL could never understand because she was incapable of loving. Attempts to try and tell her that there was no interest in kicking her out, and everyone was willing to set it up so she could legally remain there and ownership converted to the siblings after her death, fell on deaf ears.

SIL is convinced, as is DW to a lesser extent, that step mom wants to sell the property and keep the money. It is worth over a million dollars. I think property taxes may be the issue, and she wants to mortgage it or sell off one or two of the empty lots to cover taxes for the next few years. Unfortunately, she would drink most of the money from a sale, but they could set something up with the money from a lot sale to keep that from happening. SIL would never sell the lot with the house on it, but DW isn't emotionally invested in it and would be willing to sell it all if SIL agreed and if the money was divided as it should be by law. DW isn't even really interested in the money, but wants to make sure SIL and nephews are taken care of because she recently escaped a nasty, nasty marriage. Step mom has been sending a steady barrage of legal notices as she tries different things to get them to sign over their stakes in the property.

The latest is that there is a court hearing, in a state we are nowhere near, next month because step mom is trying to get a judge to give her the whole thing. DW has washed her hands of it. She doesn't want to spend on a lawyer when she simply doesn't care enough about the property. DW told SIL that she won't sign anything over to step mom, just to show the siblings were united a front, but that's the extent of it. If SIL wins, DW has already pretty much decided to sign her share over to SIL so the house stays in the family but there is no divided ownership. I'm the spouse so it doesn't really concern me. I just hate drama and will be glad when the mailman quits knocking on our door with certified letters. This is also pretty much where DW is at. DW and SIL's mother is also in a terminal stage of cancer, so dealing with a washed up barfly's shenanigans isn't really what they need in their mental space right now.

Weird thing -- in the legal paperwork step mom turned into the court saying why the property should go to her, the first bullet point is to assure the judge that although she knew FIL before he was divorced, she never had an affair with him. Oddly, both SIL and DW still have the very long letter from their father that he sent each of them when he announced the divorce, where he admitted to a very long affair (years) with his soon to be new wife and asked their forgiveness. Not sure what the judge will think of her lying about something that neither sibling would have even thought to bring up if she hadn't first. (DW did forward a copy of her letter to SIL's lawyer.)

My life is simple. When dad died, it all went to my mom. My mom has two small life insurance policies for the same amount, one for sis, one for me. Sis and I have discussed the rest (a 50/50 split, according to my mom's will.) I don't want any of mom's junk, so when she goes sis can have her pick, then the grandkids can have a go at it, then we'll let an estate company and real estate agent handle the rest. If sis throws a stink (doubtful), she can have it all.

I'd strongly suggest talking to the staff about what you want to know. When my grandmother passed, I was there but none of her children were. The staff member who was around told us repeatedly (after the event) that she knew that grandmother was going to die that day. If we'd have known then more people would have been there. Hearing that someone knew something and kept quiet made a difficult day more difficult.

I'd strongly suggest talking to the staff about what you want to know. When my grandmother passed, I was there but none of her children were. The staff member who was around told us repeatedly (after the event) that she knew that grandmother was going to die that day. If we'd have known then more people would have been there. Hearing that someone knew something and kept quiet made a difficult day more difficult.

Please give the staffer a break. They do this all day, every day. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don't.

When my friend referenced above was dying, the nurses were very kind. They told me step-by-step what to expect. My friend had fallen, developed sepsis, and had a terminal illness. It was not "if", it was "when". Thing is, nothing that long, sleepless night happened the way they said it would. Just before dawn, I knew it was happening, because I could feel it, but I was still hesitant to wake his daughter, because it wasn't happening the way the expert said it would.

People who do this work, and most especially the ones who make housecalls to give baths to invalids, are angels on earth.

I'd strongly suggest talking to the staff about what you want to know. When my grandmother passed, I was there but none of her children were. The staff member who was around told us repeatedly (after the event) that she knew that grandmother was going to die that day. If we'd have known then more people would have been there. Hearing that someone knew something and kept quiet made a difficult day more difficult.

Please give the staffer a break. They do this all day, every day. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don't.

When my friend referenced above was dying, the nurses were very kind. They told me step-by-step what to expect. My friend had fallen, developed sepsis, and had a terminal illness. It was not "if", it was "when". Thing is, nothing that long, sleepless night happened the way they said it would. Just before dawn, I knew it was happening, because I could feel it, but I was still hesitant to wake his daughter, because it wasn't happening the way the expert said it would.

People who do this work, and most especially the ones who make housecalls to give baths to invalids, are angels on earth.

Agreed...ours, for 3 parents between my DW and myself, would be embarrassed to be called Angels however. They would argue that Angels get much better pay! I agree to them doing Gods work though and I told them so.

Thank you for your story, Plugging along. Count me as another one who would rather not have relatives and friends in the room when I pass. The thought of people grasping at my hands, weeping or moaning, and staring at my face counting my breaths is disturbing and honestly a little ghoulish, to me. I'd prefer to go peacefully in bed in a room by myself. I don't want my loved ones' last image of me as me dying.

There must be plenty of others who feel the same, because I've heard many versions of that same scenario of the person dying as soon as there is no one in their room, for however brief a time.

Thank you for your perspective. I have to admit I was crying for a bit seeing my aunt in that condition was pretty awful but I quickly pulled myself together and just tried to make her as comfortable as possible and told her stories about the kids. I honestly didn't recognise her when I came in and remember her as she was in my childhood. It never occurred to me that some people would prefer to be alone in death, I hope my aunt wasn't of that feeling but I believe not. As a different perspective DH grandfather seeyed to hang on until his family was all present, said his goodbyes and then passed peacefully. I guess it all depends on family dynamics and personal relationships but I guess the best thing is to make sure your family are on the same page.

I'd strongly suggest talking to the staff about what you want to know. When my grandmother passed, I was there but none of her children were. The staff member who was around told us repeatedly (after the event) that she knew that grandmother was going to die that day. If we'd have known then more people would have been there. Hearing that someone knew something and kept quiet made a difficult day more difficult.

Please give the staffer a break. They do this all day, every day. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don't.

When my friend referenced above was dying, the nurses were very kind. They told me step-by-step what to expect. My friend had fallen, developed sepsis, and had a terminal illness. It was not "if", it was "when". Thing is, nothing that long, sleepless night happened the way they said it would. Just before dawn, I knew it was happening, because I could feel it, but I was still hesitant to wake his daughter, because it wasn't happening the way the expert said it would.

People who do this work, and most especially the ones who make housecalls to give baths to invalids, are angels on earth.

Agreed...ours, for 3 parents between my DW and myself, would be embarrassed to be called Angels however. They would argue that Angels get much better pay! I agree to them doing Gods work though and I told them so.

Well, there's a small group of Angels in Anaheim, CA that do get paid rather well...

Relationships here are edited to protect the guilty.Family member dies in unusual, public accident. More money involved because life insurance doubled and car insurance was involved too. She was single and had no will. Oldest unemployed 30ish son was living with mom, but she supposedly was going to kick him out the same month she dies. His luck changed with her death. He took at least one loan at an exorbitant rate on the inheritance he hadn't received yet where they put a lien on the probate money. He continued to live in the house and when the dust settled he owned the house with no mortgage, 2 cars and had maybe 100k. He didn't spend lavishly, but golfed quite a bit and had season tickets to pro hockey. Still no job and met up with female from high school or something. She moved in and proceeded to help him spend the rest of what he had. Turned out she had a drug habit and had spent some time in prison for robbery. With the $$ running low he got a job 20 miles away as a dishwasher in fancy restaurant. She stuck around till the $$ ran out and tried to get him arrested on domestic violence charges because she thought he would be in jail for awhile and she could squat in the house while he was. After she was gone he started with bath salts (this was around 2011) that caused hallucinations. Chopped up the house quite a bit with an axe. House value was maybe 125k when he acquired it. Sold the house for 35k about 18 mos in and most of his mother's furniture was put out at the curb as trash. 1 car was sold for the money and he bought a much older one that didn't last long. Not sure what happened to car #2. His brother bought him another car, but it was repo'd after he took title loans on it. Fast forward to now almost 9 years later - he is almost 40. Now he lives very simply in a former motel, working in a pizza shop where he can walk to work. He owns a dog, a TV and sometimes has a working cell phone.

I have read that since inherited or lottery money wasn't earned, those that receive it don't value it the same way as if they had earned it. Sure seems to fit in this case.

There was a younger brother too and in the end he fared even worse. He got his money when he turned 18. You can guess how that ended.

not a lot of inheritance drama in my family, but there is a bit. great-great aunt "sarah" married into a well-off family at a young age. she and her husband, great-great uncle "max," weren't able to have kids of their own, so they took in their two nieces, "susie" and "eleanor," whose parents were less-than-stable. great-great aunt sarah was a really critical person, and really tight-fisted with money.both eleanor and susie married. then great-great uncle max passed away, leaving great-great aunt sarah with control of all of the family money. eleanor and her husband had several children, but sarah always spoiled eleanor's oldest son, "martin" -- who would eventually grow up and become my dad. she was always buying him gifts, making excuses for him, letting him do whatever he wanted. he could have turned out really horribly, but luckily he didn't -- although his siblings still resent that preferential treatment, even though by now they're all in their 50s and 60s. my parents moved across the country for a job before i was born, but everyone else remained by sarah.

flash forward a few decades, and aunt sarah isn't as young as she once was. she starts needing almost constant care, which my grandma eleanor provides. eleanor isn't given any kind of payment for this, even though it's essentially a full-time job, but she doesn't complain. sarah and max took her and her sister in when they really needed it, so this is a way she can repay that. there are no direct family heirs at this point other than eleanor and susie, so everyone expects the money to be divided amongst the two of them - with eleanor maybe getting a larger portion since she provided so much support at the end. however, sarah is getting more and more paranoid - she's certain eleanor is only taking care of her for the money, even though eleanor would never dream of mentioning it or even expecting it. she still lets eleanor provide full-time care for her, because it saves her the job of having to pay for a nurse.

after a few years, susan dies. i'm sure no one reading this will be surprised to find out that the will ended up shocking everyone. both susie and eleanor were written out completely. sarah's house and furniture was to be sold off, all the money and investments were to be given to a very, very distant cousin currently living in south korea, whom she'd never met. the only other person remembered was my dad, who was given an antique bedroom set meant for me. however, my parents didn't have a lot of money at the time and couldn't pay to have it shipped across the country, and my dad was indignant that his mom had been forgotten after so many years of care. so he sold it to his mom for barely anything, which let her hold on to something she remembered from her own childhood with susan, and gave her something to remember susan behind.

Very strange that she would intentionally (or seemingly so) snub someone who she raised and who took care of her.

I took care of my grandmother at the end of her life. He need for care coincided with my moving to her city due to my fiancee's (at the time) work. At first, she just needed grocery store runs, help with more difficult housework, etc. Just kind of an extra hand. By the end, she was almost entirely bedridden and I did things like clean up messes when she couldn't make it to the bathroom, etc. I couldn't even leave the house without finding someone to sit with her. I was happy to do it, but it was intense, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to get another job.

Anyway, at first she offered me a small sum for the help. (IIRC, it was $500/mo.) I wasn't doing it for the money, so that was fine. And it continued to be fine even as the task got bigger. Had her children been required to pay someone, it would have cost thousands (if not $10000+) to hire help. But again, I was happy to do it and I never really thought about the money. Grandma's death, sadly, spanned several months during which she was quite miserable and that made her unhappy and quite difficult. This made that task of caring for her challenging and at times unpleasant. But it was always easy to see the cause of her unpleasantness, so I had nothing but love and compassion for her.

When she passed away, her three children (my dad and his brother and sister) gave me a small lump sum from the inheritance as a thank you and as an acknowledgement of what I had done for her. It was unexpected and a lovely gesture. I don't recall how much it was--not life changing sums, but not just a small token either.

I share this story in part because sometimes, people act reasonably, generously, and sensibly in light of an inheritance, too.

it isn't as sad as it could be. it hurt my grandma, but she and her husband were frugal all of their lives, so it's not like they needed the money. my grandpa passed away about ten years ago, and my grandma is always jetting off to explore a new country and visit people. she's doing retirement right, in my opinion. my great aunt susie could have used the money more, but my grandma slips her money to keep her afloat, i think, and she's pretty frugal as well.

it hurt my grandma to be suspected of being after her aunt's money. but looking at my dad's family, i think it was for the best that they didn't end up having to expect a significant inheritance from my grandma. all of my aunts and uncles are doing fine financially, but, perhaps due to the way my great-great aunt sarah messed with their dynamics by favoring my dad so much, they're all really jealous and petty with each other, and i think few of them would handle dealing with an inheritance well. most of them are the kind of people who get upset by a percieved slight and then won't talk to the person they're mad at for three years - not an exaggeration. it's frustrating, but honestly makes me happy my family is the family that moved away from the relatives, because we barely have to deal with that.

Over 20 years ago, my great aunt was an elderly widow, living alone. My dad would go see her about twice a week (mow the lawn, bring groceries, visit). She was his favorite aunt and he was probably her favorite nephew.

She didn't have any kids of her own but had many siblings, some with kids. She had no will. At one point, she broke her hip & went into the hospital. She wanted to have a lawyer come and draw up a will and leave everthing to my dad but she passed away before she could do that.

My dad wound up being executer. One of his cousins, started calling our house after she died to find out when she was going to get her money (which, I think was about $10k). This cousin was someone who had cut off her whole family, including her own sister. I had never met her. I told my mom just to hang up on her but my mom was too nice.

At the time, I wished that my great-aunt had had a chance to write her will (just to stick it to the jerk cousin) but in retrospect, it's probably much better that she didn't. I'm sure the cousin and maybe some other members of the family would have thought it was a case of undue influence.

Actually, the best would have been if she had written a will & left everything to some non-profit. Oh well.

I can't imagine phoning someone who was going through an estate so that I could see when I was going to get my share.

not a lot of inheritance drama in my family, but there is a bit. great-great aunt "sarah" married into a well-off family at a young age. she and her husband, great-great uncle "max," weren't able to have kids of their own, so they took in their two nieces, "susie" and "eleanor," whose parents were less-than-stable. great-great aunt sarah was a really critical person, and really tight-fisted with money.both eleanor and susie married. then great-great uncle max passed away, leaving great-great aunt sarah with control of all of the family money. eleanor and her husband had several children, but sarah always spoiled eleanor's oldest son, "martin" -- who would eventually grow up and become my dad. she was always buying him gifts, making excuses for him, letting him do whatever he wanted. he could have turned out really horribly, but luckily he didn't -- although his siblings still resent that preferential treatment, even though by now they're all in their 50s and 60s. my parents moved across the country for a job before i was born, but everyone else remained by sarah.

flash forward a few decades, and aunt sarah isn't as young as she once was. she starts needing almost constant care, which my grandma eleanor provides. eleanor isn't given any kind of payment for this, even though it's essentially a full-time job, but she doesn't complain. sarah and max took her and her sister in when they really needed it, so this is a way she can repay that. there are no direct family heirs at this point other than eleanor and susie, so everyone expects the money to be divided amongst the two of them - with eleanor maybe getting a larger portion since she provided so much support at the end. however, sarah is getting more and more paranoid - she's certain eleanor is only taking care of her for the money, even though eleanor would never dream of mentioning it or even expecting it. she still lets eleanor provide full-time care for her, because it saves her the job of having to pay for a nurse.

after a few years, susan dies. i'm sure no one reading this will be surprised to find out that the will ended up shocking everyone. both susie and eleanor were written out completely. sarah's house and furniture was to be sold off, all the money and investments were to be given to a very, very distant cousin currently living in south korea, whom she'd never met. the only other person remembered was my dad, who was given an antique bedroom set meant for me. however, my parents didn't have a lot of money at the time and couldn't pay to have it shipped across the country, and my dad was indignant that his mom had been forgotten after so many years of care. so he sold it to his mom for barely anything, which let her hold on to something she remembered from her own childhood with susan, and gave her something to remember susan behind.

Are there ways of challenging a will in cases like this? You can get court injunctions down here under certain circumstances.

Yes, if my great aunt had written a will in her last weeks of life, other relatives could probably have contested it. Even if they didn't, they might have suspected my dad of wrongdoing. That's why I think it's better she didn't wind up making a will. All of her assets were divided equally between her surviving siblings or else their children.

When there's no will, there's nothing to contest. Everything gets divided according to state law.

I can't imagine phoning someone who was going through an estate so that I could see when I was going to get my share.

When it's just money, indeed this seems horrific.

Often estates include irreplaceable mementi of times the deceased spent with other people. Souvenirs, or hand-written journals. Determining how to dispose of these seems to me like it would be even more difficult.

I can't imagine phoning someone who was going through an estate so that I could see when I was going to get my share.

When it's just money, indeed this seems horrific.

Often estates include irreplaceable mementi of times the deceased spent with other people. Souvenirs, or hand-written journals. Determining how to dispose of these seems to me like it would be even more difficult.

In this case, she was calling about money. She never asked about any personal items. Everything was sold or thrown away & the house was sold.

Forgot to add, the rude woman who was calling did not come to the funeral. Her sister did.

Latin-origin word. Latin plural is actually the same as the singular (momento), but modern Italian is mementi. Not standard English, but technically correct. The best kind of correct.

Err not quite.

Memento is a Latin verb of the Future Imperative form. So it is telling some one "Hey, remember this at some point in the future!" The plural of which is Mementote which is just telling many people to remember something. It was transformed into a noun in English sometime around the 1600's. Since using it as a noun already destroys any Latin pluralization rules, it is only correct to stick to English ones.

Memento is a Latin verb of the Future Imperative form. So it is telling some one "Hey, remember this at some point in the future!" The plural of which is Mementote which is just telling many people to remember something. It was transformed into a noun in English sometime around the 1600's. Since using it as a noun already destroys any Latin pluralization rules, it is only correct to stick to English ones.

Well, if we're going down this path, *technically* Latin as a spoken vernacular was a thousand years dead by the time this was adopted into English, so unless you're suggesting that English adopted the word from Classical or Ecclesiastical Latin, the word *technically* came to English via Italian*, and so one could argue that the Italian plural is correct. This would be supported by the fact, as you noted, that the Latin word is a verb while the English and Italian is a noun.

*Depending on whether you think the word "Italian" has any meaning pre-19th century. Feel free to replace with your preferred city-state as needed, I'm staying out of that one.

Memento is a Latin verb of the Future Imperative form. So it is telling some one "Hey, remember this at some point in the future!" The plural of which is Mementote which is just telling many people to remember something. It was transformed into a noun in English sometime around the 1600's. Since using it as a noun already destroys any Latin pluralization rules, it is only correct to stick to English ones.

Well, if we're going down this path, *technically* Latin as a spoken vernacular was a thousand years dead by the time this was adopted into English, so unless you're suggesting that English adopted the word from Classical or Ecclesiastical Latin, the word *technically* came to English via Italian*, and so one could argue that the Italian plural is correct. This would be supported by the fact, as you noted, that the Latin word is a verb while the English and Italian is a noun.

*Depending on whether you think the word "Italian" has any meaning pre-19th century. Feel free to replace with your preferred city-state as needed, I'm staying out of that one.

That last part made me lol. Honestly, I truly enjoy etymology discussions, but I realize this is getting into some foaminess for this thread.

I tried to make a good go at it. No etymologies list the Italian as being the root of our English word. I found that the first English person to use the word "memento" was John Lyly in 1580. He was Oxford educated (so a knowledge of both Ancient Greek and Latin were a requirement), and he was likely a member of the Anglican church. While the Church of England does not have a Latin mass, they did have some publications in Latin, and I think had a few liturgies still in Latin. For what I tried to research, he had no connection with Italy or Italian, and most etymologies of the word seem to back that up. This was a late borrowing from Latin, and probably had wider recognition outside of the Church because it is such a common liturgical word, so lay people were using it all the time.