COULTER: Do you know what Christianity is? We believe your religion, but you have to obey.

DEUTSCH: No, no, no, but I mean –

COULTER: We have the fast-track program.

DEUTSCH: Why don’t I put you with the head of Iran? I mean, come on. You can’t believe that.

COULTER: The head of Iran is not a Christian.

DEUTSCH: No, but in fact, “Let’s wipe Israel” –

COULTER: I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention.

DEUTSCH: “Let’s wipe Israel off the earth.” I mean, what, no Jews?

COULTER: No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. .

I’m Jewish, but I have to admit to being entirely unoffended by what Ann said — but that’s only because I understand what she said. All Christians believe that Jews have stopped short of attaining salvation, in that they’ve got a firm grasp of the “Judeo” things regarding morality and God, but they forgot to put in the Christian part. That is, as a Jew who does not recognize Christ as my savior, I’m denying myself salvation. Indeed, that’s what Christ himself said. Indeed, that’s the entire point of Christianity, especially when seen against the foil of Judaism against which it arose. And that’s what Ann is saying in the language I highlighted: “We have the fast-track program.”

Of course, we Jews think the other way entirely: Since we do not recognize Christ as the Son of God (sorry), we do not see him as a path to salvation. Instead, we believe salvation can be achieved only through keeping the terms, the many terms, of the covenant with God.

What rational Jews and rational Christians have in common is that, rather than hating the “other,” they are saddened that the other is failing to recognize the true path to God. Ann doesn’t want to kill me. She wants to offer me, without violence or coercion, the opportunity to get with “the fast-track program.” In this, she is entirely distinct from an Islamist who will either convert me at sword or gunpoint, or kill me. And indeed, when it comes to the Jews, Islamist hatred is so wild, killing is often deemed the better option.

Jews, of course, don’t have a conversion tradition, but they certainly don’t hate Christians. Indeed, smart Jews nowadays recognize that Christians are our companions in morality, and that we serve each other well by having dialogs about the values common to both faiths.

So I totally get what Ann is saying, and I don’t take offense. But, Gosh Darnit Ann! — could you have phrased the whole thing more stupidly? Here’s what the Anchoress has to say, and I second entirely her point of view:

If you read that transcript to the end, you can see where Coulter tries to clarify her meaning, but she can’t, partly because a sound-bite forum is NO PLACE for that sort of deep and too-easily-misunderstood discussion, and partly because her host is, from his perspective as a Jew, unsurprisingly appalled by what he is hearing, by what he thinks Coulter is saying. This is a discussion best left to someone with a gift for diplomacy, a deft tongue and a loving, civil and collected mien. It is is absolutely not a discussion that should be undertaken by someone who has the deftness of a hammer and the mien of a German Shepherd. Coulter tries to explain, but keeps sinking further because she’s in deep waters, weighted down by time constraints and her own clumsiness; rather than rescuing herself, she’s taking down a whole ship!

The damage is done and it is HUGE damage, done very thoroughly; and her clarification is too little, too late and too inarticulate to do the job. And this is going to be red meat all through ‘08, folks. This is going to be the caricature of Christians and conservatives for the next 18 months, (and beyond) and it’s going to stick because people want it to stick and because it’s EASIER to let it stick than to find out what this woman – who is really out of her depths here – was trying to say.

Or, as we Jews say, “Oy vey!”

UPDATE: I’ll second Charles’ viewpoint at LGF, which echoes Dennis Prager’s viewpoint on his morning radio show. We on the Right should be less upset, and should be vaguely amused, in a superior way, about the hysteria on the Left. Having said that, I still think Ann does not serve the Conservative cause well by making a spectacle of herself in this way.

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Miz Coulter has also said she favors forced conversions of Muslims to Christianity. She is a professional hornest’s nest poker, ladies. She’s no more of an anti-semite than Jackie Mason and speaks for no one but herself.

Deana

Sorry Bookworm, but Coulter just makes me nauseous.

I also do not believe that she is an anti-Semite – she probably decided to instigate this to promote the sales of her book. But what she said is disrespectful to Christianity as well as Judaism.

She often hits the nail on the head with her observations but there are times when it feels as if she doesn’t know how to handle herself.

Bottom line – what she said was not necessary. There simply was no need to say that.

Deana

http://bookwormroom.wordpress.com/ Bookworm

Deana: I’m not denying that Ann is capable of being a loud-mouthed boor. Indeed, I agree with you on that point. As it is, Ann tends to write better than she talks, since the written format (a) allows her to develop more fully any complex ideas she has and (b) inserts an editor between her and the audience.

Nevertheless, I’m not going to get het up about anti-Semitism here, which is what Media Matters, which is promoting this bit of dialog, wants Jews to do, because that’s not what’s going on. She’s a boor, but she’s not an anti-Semite, nor should she create the ugly specter that their are legions of Christian anti-Semites roaming the streets of America.

Unfortunately, since Ann does operate in the “open mouth insert foot” mode, there’s going to be a lot of work to undo the damage she’s just done to Jewish – Christian relations, especially amongst those Jews who would like to lean right, but are afraid.

http://thomaschronicles.com Thomas

Hello Bookworm,

You said, “All Christians believe that Jews have stopped short of attaining salvation…”

As a practicing Christian, I don’t believe this at all. I believe, that Christ is revealed or He isn’t. It is God who does the revealing, not men. It is my modus operandi that for those who haven’t had Christ revealed, I am to leave them alone to live according to the light of their own conscience. In the meanwhile, my marching orders are to display Christ’s love to non-believers and keep my side of the street clean, if you’ll forgive the metaphor.

As for the Hebrews, like you said, they have their covenant with God which is an entirely different dynamic. I believe that the Hebrews are the Chosen people of God and that Christianity is a line grafted on to the Jewish vine. Personally, I am in awe of devout orthodox Jews who stand in the face of Hitler and worldwide anti-Semitism and will not renounce God just because He IS… and they do so without, in my opinion, the benefit of Christ.

That kind of faithfulness astounds me. Clearly, I don’t know the half, or a fraction, of what is going on between Man’s relationship with God, and vis-a-versa. The good thing is that it’s not a test and I don’t have to know (thank God).

I find Ann Coulter’s remarks highly inappropriate, not much deserving of a substantive comment other than to say that whatever her value as an observer into the Left’s insanities, she more than undoes her worth as a political observer with her constant foot-in-mouth syndrome. In a word, she constantly undermines her own credibility.

http://www.eternityroad.info Francis W. Porretto

If you’re not offended, why the big deal?

As a Christian, I believe Judaism to be an obsolete, superseded faith. As a Jew, you believe Christianity to be founded on a false claim. That’s the nature of religious belief. Give up the hope that we can all accord one another’s creeds “equal respect” when we start from the premise that everyone else’s creed is wrong!

This is why religious discussions should always be held in private, and over a lot of alcohol.

http://bookwormroom.wordpress.com/ Bookworm

It’s definitely not a big deal, Francis, but it’s not a big deal at my blog because I trust completely that people like you, or Thomas, or Deana, or even the loud mouthed Ann, won’t kill me or ostracize me for my differing faith. The problem, though, is that a lot of Jewish people are so imbued by fear of Christians, a fear based on real history (Crusades, Pogroms) plus false beliefs (Leftist secularism), that they will pull away from the conservative ideology that I believe does in fact best represent their interests. So the whole matters only because Ann has done damage — again — by chasing away people who ought to be coming closer to conservatives.

http://soccerdad.baltiblogs.com soccer dad

Israelly Cool! disagrees with you, but he also has a nice bunch of links (including to Mere Rhetoric and LGF who defend Coulter.)

What struck me was the response. Ann says, in effect, that the only way to be saved (the fast track) is through acceptance of Jesus Christ as savior, hardly a novel proposition and one held by most Christians, kind folks like Thomas notwithstanding. His response is “You can’t possibly believe that . . . . You’re too educated.” The leftist anti-religion crowd simply cannot believe that people can be educated, intelligent and still believe in Christ as their savior. No wonder they have zero understanding of devout Christians who wish to save them and lump them in with Islamic extremists who wish to kill them.

http://writingenglish.wordpress.com judyrose

Here’s how I see Ann Coulter. She’s way too smart to be this stupid. I don’t believe she does anything without calculation. She loves to shock. She is famous for saying what she thinks despite the repercussions. Probably, repercussions are exactly what she’s banking on. She is quite familiar with the taste of her own foot, and just gets more publicity from the meal. She thrives on that and has become wealthy partly because of it. When I read her columns, I’m interested in her insights, but I’m also looking for something outrageous, which is where the fun comes in.

I expect many non-Christians will now assume that Ann has revealed something most Christians secretly believe, but don’t dare say. Perhaps they are right. Who knows? Who cares? The only thing that matters is what people DO.

http://thomaschronicles.com Thomas

Hello Bookworm,

If you would permit me one more comment concerning this matter. I think Ann Coulter’s callous remarks, inadvertent though they may be, comes at a very difficult time. Far be it for me to advocate political correct sensibilities, I certainly haven’t been a champion in this department, but there are times and places and forums to make such statements. I don’t know if this was the appropriate forum for such statements, but this probably isn’t the time.

I watched a rather lengthy and painful interview with Raymond Ibrahim a few weeks ago on C-Span by an editor from the New Yorker. I offer this bit of experience not as a means to castigate the New Yorker and other liberals in the press, since they also have a fantastic ability to insert their feet into odd places, but to delineate the possible direction of our Left.

In this interview, this editor from the New Yorker, I forget his name, continually tried to equate Islamic extremists with Christianity, despite Ibrahim’s constant refutations of the analogy. This came as no surprise since Christianity has been under assault for the better part of a the past 40 years by the Left. What made this particular interview stand out is the interviewer’s insistence on the “beauty of Islam”. He must have repeated it on five different occasions during the course of the interview much to the consternation of Ibrahim and myself and hopefully to other viewers.

(Here’s the link. Oh, and the interviewer’s name is Lawrence Wright, and he’s staff writer for the New Yorker, not an editor. My mistake.)

I’ve seen this pattern repeated again and again. The casual contemptuous dismissal of Christianity by equating it to the violence of Islamic extremists is becoming more common. I would have written off this behavior as more secular progressive nonsense if it weren’t for the even more curious phenomena of the Left steadily raising Islam as “beautiful”.

(Note that the Islamic population in America is currently 900,000 with each family having about 6 children on average. Do the pyramid math and we’ve got ourselves a problem. Our inner cities are rapidly becoming Islamic due to conversion and birth. Michigan has the largest Muslim population outside of Southern France. Southern France has the largest Muslim population outside the Middle East. In Michigan, the Muslim population have become the deciding voting block. Wake up and smell the caffeine folks! (I was going to blog on this and I still might, but this is a massive topic.))

Ann Coulter’s remarks, though not anti-Semitic in my view, can be easily spun that way, and they play directly into the hands of angry Leftists who want to make Christianity the moral equivalent of radical Islam. Yes, her statement will probably garner much attention, and she’ll bask in controversy where she thrives. My hope is that her statement wouldn’t be just another mallet to club Christianity.

judyrose said:
Here’s how I see Ann Coulter. She’s way too smart to be this stupid. I don’t believe she does anything without calculation. She loves to shock.

right on, judyrose!

I’d add: Ann Coulter is sometimes only about hyping her book sales.
I often agree with what she says, but sometimes… it’s just about makin’ the news.

This is one of those times.

Ellie

You people scare me. Cannot you not recognize a loudmouth for what she is — carnival barker mostly — and dismiss her? Or do you wish to shut her up?

If so you are a Liberal and on the wrong blog!

http://ngland,Belgium JJ

Oh, I hardly think it amounts to “HUGE damage,” as the Anchoress avers.

Anyway, spend enough time delving around in the deeps of history and you discover there aren’t either Jews or Christians – we’re actually all Sumerians! (Or at least our beliefs are…)

Burt

It amazes me to observe that seemingly intelligent readers don’t realize that it’s not what you say, it’s what people her.

And I hear someone who only superficially spout the radical Moslem philosophy.

“There is only one God, and he’s mine.”

http://Synova.blogspot.com Synova

I disagree that “This is a discussion best left to someone with a gift for diplomacy, a deft tongue and a loving, civil and collected mien. It is is absolutely not a discussion that should be undertaken by someone who has the deftness of a hammer and the mien of a German Shepherd.”

It’s not the ineptness of the discussion that’s the problem so much as the fact that we (as a culture) have chosen to be offended whenever possible and most particularly if someone tells us that our religion is wrong.

The problem with that is that by insisting that no one ever pronounce a religion wrong (because that would be rude) we put religion in a place of absolute triviality. It can not be wrong. No matter what it is. No matter if it is Judaism or Christianity or any other religion. I know at least one person who seems to sincerely claim to worship the Norse pantheon.

This wanting to avoid “earthy” discussions of religion not only sanitizes our interactions, it sanitizes our faith and beliefs. It’s so bad that it’s nearly impossible to explain to someone how “what you believe is true, is true for you” is the exact same thing as saying “everyone equally believes lies.” When nothing *matters* it means that none of the beliefs *matters*. That no beliefs are vital and no beliefs are True. All “truth” is and can only be all lies.

An earthy, vital religion does not offend me. And I’ll admit that I don’t quite understand that some people get so terribly upset that Christians (at least some of them) believe in hell and believe that some people are lost, and going to it. I grew up where this joke made sense and was funny: A Lutheran minister and a Baptist minister roomed together for two weeks at a conference. When they were packing to go home the one says to the other. “Before this, I didn’t realize that a Baptist could be saved.” The other says, “Well I’m glad to know there is at least one saved Lutheran.”

Reading the comments here, I am completely at sea. “There is only one God, and he’s mine.” is not “radical Moslem philosophy”; it’s the mainstream Presbyterian belief I grew up with. One reason I lost my faith is that it seemed that was the view of every religion and nearly all of them had to be wrong. Have we really swung so far the other way that now we believe everybody’s God is the same being, just imperfectly understood by men?

I’m with Synova. If the differences don’t matter, then religion doesn’t matter, nor does truth. Picking a religion becomes no more important and meaningful than picking a sports team to root for.

Like you, I am Jewish, and am not offened by Ann Coulter’s comments, but do have issues in general with her. The way she says things, regardless of the good points she is attempting to make, obscures those points.

BTW, I “tagged” you on my blog!

BHG

Marguerite

I’m w/Synova! Many interesting and meaningful discussions are cut off w/those infamous words ‘that’s your truth, this is my truth, and we need to respect each other’s truth.’ When did respecting a human being AS a human being become respecting their ‘truth’? I really think it just means accepting that there is no truth worthy of heated discussion.

http://bookwormroom.wordpress.com/ Bookworm

My bottom line is, always, I recognize that there are genuine religious differences amongst people of faith. Otherwise, as DQ and Synova said, why bother with religion at all? However, I am forever grateful to live in America where people, including tactless, abrasive people such as Ann Coulter, can express their beliefs without feeling the accompanying need to abuse or kill me.

http://thomaschronicles.com Thomas

Hello Bookworm,

Regarding Ann Coulter’s comments and my own here, I wish to make an apology to Ann if she happens to read this comment. In re-reading the transcripts from her conversation with Donny Deutsch, I agree with her entirely. Previously, I concentrated only on the bold printed words which if taken out of context makes her seem very callous and abusive. After reading her comments again today, I have to confess that she was right in her assertions and I wrong. I should have given her the benefit of the doubt.

Ann Coulter simply said that she believes that the revelation of Christ is the perfection of the covenant God made with the Jews. Of course, she’s a Christian. Now, do I believe that no one else will be saved? No, I don’t believe that, and I think my first comments still stands. However, I don’t find anything objectionable in what Ann said.

What do find objectional is Donny Deutsch hauling off and accusing her of anti-Semitism when she said no such thing. This is the core of the “controversy” if you can call it as such.

DEUTSCH: Would there be more tolerance? Would there be — would women be happier, would the races get along better? The Ann Coulter subscription — prescription. What — tell me what would be different in our fabric of country, because —

COULTER: Well, all of those things.

DEUTSCH: I can give — I can give you an argument there would be more divisiveness, that there would be more hate —

COULTER: Oh, no.

DEUTSCH: That there would be a bigger difference between the rich and the poor, a lot of other — tell me what — why this would be a better world? Let’s give you — I’m going to give you — say this is your show.

COULTER: Well, OK, take the Republican National Convention. People were happy. They’re Christian. They’re tolerant. They defend America, they —

DEUTSCH: Christian — so we should be Christian? It would be better if we were all Christian?

COULTER: Yes.

DEUTSCH: We should all be Christian?

COULTER: Yes. Would you like to come to church with me, Donny?

DEUTSCH: So I should not be a Jew, I should be a Christian, and this would be a better place?

COULTER: Well, you could be a practicing Jew, but you’re not.

If you read this with a neutral unprejudiced mind, it is Donny that attacked Ann, not the other way around. If proclaiming Christianity as the truth makes the world react this way, well, we’re in deep kim-chi.

I shouldn’t have blown off Miss Coulter because she’s been known to fire off at the mouth. Instead, it was I who fired off at the mouth this time.

dagon

thomas,

you’re a flat-out sycophant.

look, i don’t want to be the one to break this to you people but ann coulter believes what she says about as much as i would if i said i wanted to shake w’s hand.

she is a shill…..for money!! her own minister said that she hardly if ever even attends her own church. do you ever notice that these outrageous or controversial screeds only come out around the time she has a new book to release?

never-married
single
no kids
doesn’t attend church (as far as anyone can tell)

…is a person you would give any credibility to about issues regarding marriage, how women should act, child rearing and religion?!???

the modern right wing. a laughingstock!

peace

http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/ ymarsakar

dagon, on October 12th, 2007 at 2:40 pm Said:

thomas,

you’re a flat-out sycophant.

Dagon was feeling jealous over how g was allowed to suck out some vampiricism food in the last few months. This must be d’s chance to one up the club competition.

Just hold that hate in, d, eventually it’ll turn into some kind of diamond and you can sell it for profit.

http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/ ymarsakar

Book, why would Coulter be able to chase away Jews that never wanted to get closer to conservatism in the first place?

http://Synova.blogspot.com Synova

I was thinking about this and I agree that Jews have been persecuted for being Jewish and are understandably… touchy.

But… even though Luther was used to justify (wrongly, actually… he was less anti-Semitic than most for his time) some of what Germans did in WW2, I can’t see that it was a matter of Christians against Jews. It wasn’t religion anywhere near so much as it was *science*. Germany took what was mainstream accepted in England and in the United States to logical conclusions. The science of the day said that all things were heritable including moral weakness and vice and there were those sterilized in the US against their will for the crime of being morally weak. Mentally or genetically infirm Germans were euthanized… being German or Christian helped them not at all.

The drive in Germany wasn’t to promote the proper religion it was to perfect the human genome.

That it was science more than religion driving the horror is, in some ways, irrelevant. In other ways, though, I think the distinction is important. The persecution of Jews is Historically ubiquitous. I’m not claiming otherwise.

http://bookwormroom.wordpress.com/ Bookworm

Synova, I know that the Nazis weren’t motivated by Christianity but, rather, by socialism. Others don’t know that. But Jews do have reason to fear Christianity, which turned on them for centuries. The thing American Jews cannot figure out now is that they don’t have reason to fear now, here, in America. There are a lot of Jews I know who disagree pretty much with most Democratic policies, but are simply too afraid of American Christians to throw themselves into the Republican party. It’s foolish, but ignorance and fear are like that.

http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/ ymarsakar

The core reason why Jews get persecuted is because the Jews don’t wipe out their persecutors. That’s really the core reason why such things like the Holocaust keeps cropping up.

In relation to the various physical attacks we have heard about, Synova, this then would be a person simply trying not to kill or permanently injure an attacker. Eventually they come back, even if assuming they get grabbed by the police. In the real world, there is no American style anti-corruption and honor going on. They will always come back for another attacker, for they have no reason not to. The Jewish history has born this out, and if Jews take their history to meant that they must avoid Christians then the Jews have mistaken the wisdom of God for the counsel of their own fears.

http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/ ymarsakar

But Jews do have reason to fear Christianity, which turned on them for centuries.

People turned on the Jews, for human reasons. An incomplete understanding of human reasoning and fallibilities create irrational and unrealistic fears that are useless.

There are a lot of Jews I know who disagree pretty much with most Democratic policies, but are simply too afraid of American Christians to throw themselves into the Republican party. It’s foolish

Hasn’t that been the problem with the Jews for all their history? The ghettoes because they were afraid of different cultures or customs invading their own communities? The alliance with financial networks and rulers because they were afraid of pogroms and public resentment, so therefore the Jews wanted to make sure that they were useful to the ruling power? This fear of many things seems to be a driving motivation in Jewish history. The fear of striking back at the Palestinians cause this would make them look like a Nazi. The fear of sinning against God preventing Jews from learning warcraft and violence.

but ignorance and fear are like that.

The trifecta of medieval society involving aristocrats, peasants, and Jews was pretty wobbly. For one thing, the Turkish network of Jews, which I believe was less traditionally religious than the Spanish network, had a good relationship with the Sultans. SO long as the Jews provided the loans and financial logistics such as collecting taxes, everything was okay. They , the Jews, do so as a matter of survival since you can’t piss off the aristocrats otherwise bad things happen. However, when the peasants start revolving and disliking their high taxes in time of war and famine, then who are they going to blame and attack? Their tax collectors and the people they owe money to, in other words Jews.

The peasants won’t attack the aristocrats and knights cause they would get slaughtered by punitive expeditions, which aristocrats tended to do against revolting peasants. So the peasants take the expedient route, the expedient route that many, though not all, Jews took in order to survive in medieval Europe and Asia. The aristocrats also prefered to direct the fury at the Jews, since it wasn’t like the aristocrats wanted to take any blame on themselves.

These are just some of the reasons why I think the trifecta was a very interesting triangle of social problems and human flaws. Fast forwarding to the present, we see that essentially things are the same.

http://Synova.blogspot.com Synova

“There are a lot of Jews I know who disagree pretty much with most Democratic policies, but are simply too afraid of American Christians to throw themselves into the Republican party.”

Which is unfortunate since, IME, protestants and particularly fundamentalist protestants, preach pro-Israel and pro-Jew nearly as an element of doctrine. G-d’s chosen People. (Because it’s not hateful to preach that G-d chose a People and I’m not them.)

It wasn’t always the case, but it does seem to be, now.

http://thomaschronicles.com Thomas

Hello Bookworm,

It seems your post has some legs on it; it keeps going

On the topic of Nazism, if I may add an observation. Hitler and his inner circle cadre were emphatically not Christian. They were occultists, root and branch. In fact, Hitler said in his writings and in his speeches that he wanted to cure Europe from this “effeminate Christianity” in a more manly, Aryan (or Nordic depending when he said it) religion, i.e. an occult pagan religion.

If you read Al Gore’s book, “Earth in the Balance” Gore said much the same thing, that Western Civilization and America in particular needed to chuck Christianity in favor of the Gaia goddess religion. I don’t believe this to be a judgment on Gore, it’s just what he said.

In the modern age, from 1900 onward, it is the pagans, the secular progressives and/or liberals (or whatever they’re calling themselves now) that have been the primary persecutors of the Jews. Not the Christians on the whole… And if secularists want to point the finger at atrocities done in the name of religion, may I remind them that secularist are the hands down, all time winners in that division with Communism and fascism.

dagon

thomas,

you’re forgetting the spanish inquisition

http://bookwormroom.wordpress.com/ Bookworm

I’m tempted to be Python-esque here, Dagon, and say “nobody [forgets] the Spanish Inquisition.” I don’t think Thomas was talking about events several hundred years ago. And I continue to say that, in America, I’m grateful as a Jew not to face either modern anti-Semitism, or old-fashioned, and, if we’re talking the Inquisition, we mean very old-fashioned, Christian anti-Jewishiness.

Ellie

What’s cool about Christianity and Judaism is that they continue to evolve. Modern Judiasm does not crown Jesus as God but it does accept his teachings and grants him “prophet” status — no small deal. So we both believe in the Golden Rule and “you shall love your neighbor as yourself” as really, really important.

Thanks, I wasn’t talking about events eons ago. But since Mr. Dagon brought up the subject, I blogged in response to his base accusations against Christianity.

I would actually like to thank Mr. Dagon for his comments, without which I would have been at a loss for the subject of this week’s post. He provided me the topic and I’m grateful.

Here’s an excerpt:

It’s a constant source of oddity to see otherwise educated people deride Christianity. A commenter on Bookworm’s blog,Mr. Dagon, and many like-minded people relish in pointing out the horrors of Christendom in history but have they asked themselves the simple inauspicious question, Christianity is horrible in comparison to what?

http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/ ymarsakar

If it wasn’t for the Spanish, the SPI would have been as moderate as the Jesuits in the Vatican circa 1633.

Spain set their own policies in relation to religion during those times, which a person would know had they learned of the limitations placed upon Papal power back in the day.

For every propagandist, there is a context that must be dealt with, neutralized, or bypassed.

http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

But Jews do have reason to fear Christianity, which turned on them for centuries.

See, here is the rub. In roughly the last 60 years things have improved dramatically. There are still people here in LA that remember when certain country clubs refused membership to Jews. There are still people who remember quotas and things of that nature.

At 38 I have two personal stories of antisemitism. I don’t believe that Xtians are out to get us. I think that the overwhelming majority are good people, but there is a lot of ignorance in the world.

And the concern about that ignorance and Coulter’s promulgation of part of an idea that was used to hurt us justifiably causes concern.

Notice that I am not calling her names or making wild accusations of antisemitism. Just saying that it is not unreasonable to pay attention to these remarks.

Modern Judiasm does not crown Jesus as God but it does accept his teachings and grants him “prophet” status — no small deal

No it doesn’t. Frankly there is no consensus on whether he actually existed or is just a compendium of thoughts put together by various people. His name never comes up other than in discussions such as this one.

To quote yourself, “Since we do not recognize Christ..” nor do we refer to him as such either, since it is the Christian definition of saviour. I suggest using Jesus and not Christ.

Mike Devx

This is a good time to remind ourselves of what is so great about our old-school Western approach to religion. (Not the new-school approach…)

People of faith whose faith is deep LIVE that faith daily. They will try to move you to adopt their faith via their words and via the way they live their lives as an example. They are incredibly persistent because it is that important to them. They don’t make any noises about how worthwhile other religions are because they simply don’t believe it.

And that is entirely correct and fine.

But here is what they DON’T DO:
When someone leaves their faith for another faith, or adopts agnosticism or atheism, that other person is not to be stalked or murdered or suffer severe social retribution. People of deep faith will try to rescue the lost sheep via words and examples, but no Force is ever involved. In theocratic Muslim countries, you abandon your faith at extreme peril. If you’re not absolutely quiet and deceptive about it, your life is in danger.

If Ann Coulter actually advocated the forced conversion of people to Islam – oops, Christianity, sorry there! – she should be vilified. I doubt she went that far, since she’s usually very careful in her choice of words.

Any discussion of Ann Coulter’s strong defense of her faith should examine the forced conversion issue, and the fact that here in the West we simply don’t DO that.

http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/ ymarsakar

Any discussion of Ann Coulter’s strong defense of her faith should examine the forced conversion issue, and the fact that here in the West we simply don’t DO that.

Excluding the Left of course.

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