And Rock Tomb on Throh. And Sturdy+Rock Slide on Sawk. Are you going to chance it on misses?

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Rock Tomb won't kill anything ever and even after the speed drop I don't wager Throh could outspeed so I discounted that. Rock Slide I was a bit more iffy about, but I figured that Unfezant has a chance of surviving and KOing Sawk due to Rock Slides only OK BP if it's at full health. Not recommended and it definitely won't beat Conkeldurr disregarding crits, but hey, better than relying on Signal Beam against 3 pretty bulky and hard hitting Psychic types. I'm fine with Pidove for Low either way, to be honest I'd rather shift the discussion onto stuff which hasn't been mentioned yet.

I did calculations for fun on a few more Pokemon, and while the tiers being updated might change them, as of now here are where I think a few Pokemon should be placed. I'll go into more detail if people ask for it.

Heracross: Top (T). Two 120 BP Stabs and high attack/decent speed make it one of the few legit sweepers in the game that doesn't require setup. Even against Drayden, it'll only require one Bulk-Up or X-Attack to OHKO all three of his Pokemon. Guts+Toxic Orb is there too if you don't want to set-up. Very useful in the Elite 4 as well.

Azurill: High (T). While I don't like the one that comes earlygame, it seems like a great addition if you catch a Marill in Route 6. Immediate access to Ice Punch and Aqua Tail, while Superpower just gives it more coverage later on. Huge Power is ridiculous. Only thing holding it back is its low speed, although decent bulk helps mitigate this somewhat.

Sandshrew. High (T). Probably a surprise. Early evolution is nice, but the real kicker here is Swords Dance. Very few things survive a Swords Dance+Dig, and then eventually Earthquake combination. Drayden's dragons. Your average E4 member that doesn't resist ground. Plus its attack is high enough that setting up won't be necessary against regular trainers. Finally, it has a well rounded movepool. X-Scissor, Rock Slide and Shadow Claw are all available to it. Middling speed keeps it from top.

Minccino. High (T). Maybe another surprise. Skill link is just ridiculous, OHKOing a ridiculous amount of Pokemon. Swoobat and Swana with Rock Blast and Tail Slap. Drayden's dragons with an X-Attack. All of Marlen's Pokemon with Bullet Seed. E4 is hit-or-miss, as with a lot of Pokemon. The few levels until Tail-Slap might be a bit mediocre, but it just takes off from there. It does have accuracy problems somewhat though, which keep it from top.

I did calculations for fun on a few more Pokemon, and while the tiers being updated might change them, as of now here are where I think a few Pokemon should be placed. I'll go into more detail if people ask for it.

Heracross: Top (T). Two 120 BP Stabs and high attack/decent speed make it one of the few legit sweepers in the game that doesn't require setup. Even against Drayden, it'll only require one Bulk-Up or X-Attack to OHKO all three of his Pokemon. Guts+Toxic Orb is there too if you don't want to set-up. Very useful in the Elite 4 as well.

Azurill: High (T). While I don't like the one that comes earlygame, it seems like a great addition if you catch a Marill in Route 6. Immediate access to Ice Punch and Aqua Tail, while Superpower just gives it more coverage later on. Huge Power is ridiculous. Only thing holding it back is its low speed, although decent bulk helps mitigate this somewhat.

Sandshrew. High (T). Probably a surprise. Early evolution is nice, but the real kicker here is Swords Dance. Very few things survive a Swords Dance+Dig, and then eventually Earthquake combination. Drayden's dragons. Your average E4 member that doesn't resist ground. Plus its attack is high enough that setting up won't be necessary against regular trainers. Finally, it has a well rounded movepool. X-Scissor, Rock Slide and Shadow Claw are all available to it. Middling speed keeps it from top.

Minccino. High (T). Maybe another surprise. Skill link is just ridiculous, OHKOing a ridiculous amount of Pokemon. Swoobat and Swana with Rock Blast and Tail Slap. Drayden's dragons with an X-Attack. All of Marlen's Pokemon with Bullet Seed. E4 is hit-or-miss, as with a lot of Pokemon. The few levels until Tail-Slap might be a bit mediocre, but it just takes off from there. It does have accuracy problems somewhat though, which keep it from top.

Also, has anybody tested Zangoose yet?

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Agreeing with every single thing mentioned here except for Sandshrew, who I feel is more Mid than High (though for some reason I posted it as Low a few pages ago o.0). It has really bad special bulk and mediocre speed to work with, though I won't deny its pretty good Attack and array of usable moves definitely make it a solid choice.

As for Zangoose... Hmm, now that's rather tricky. It's a really good physical attacker and gets X-Scissor almost immediately after you get it (either you can teach it the TM or find one in doubles grass and give it a Rare Candy) to compliment Crush Claw, Revenge, Shadow Claw and elemental Punches, and you can even use Skylas gym as your own training ground provided you have Fire or Thunderpunch to beat Skarmory. However, it's very frail, has no resistances and isn't quite as strong or fast as you'd like it to be (although it does beat Hera and Darmanitan with Speed soo yeah), making it suffer a little bit later on when bulkier things come along. I wouldn't really fault it too much though, a strong physical attacker with a lot of options, I like him. I'd place it at a solid Mid, possibly High but moreso Mid.

Emboar: High. With the loss of scald and grass knot earlygame, I feel like this guy doesn't really give much in the endgame. He starts to fall off after Elesa, fire/fighting isn't really a good type combination in BW2 especially with how slow he is and how badly he fares against Skyla (swannaaaaaaaa) and Marlon (jellicent especially). He does have some use in being able to beat Colress and Grimsley, however. The best thing about him is that he's probably the best earlygame starter, destroying Roxie/Burgh with ease.

Vaporeon: Mid/High. An interesting case. Even though Eevee are able to be obtained relatively early in Castelia Park, the Water Stone doesn't appear until after Clay, which means he has a long period of relative uselessness. After that, he starts being extremely useful with his high base defenses and the ability to tank just about everything without dying. Has a relatively wide movepool compared to the other eeveelutions, but blizzard doesn't come until Lacunosa and Ice beam comes even later. This guy pretty much kills Iris (except for lapras) and tanks everyone else.

Krookodile: Top. Same status as B/W, obtained early in game, with a gym nearby for it to destroy with dig. Later in the game, it is capable of pulling a sweep against Caitlin thanks to moxie + STAB crunch. More than capable of powering through many of the ingame trainers with decent 102 attack and 97 speed in addition to moxie with only crunch and earthquake (or dig)

Jolteon: Mid. While obtained early and also not taking long to evolve (*cough*vaporeon*cough*), it has favorable matchups against Skyla and Marlon, but only learns signal beam and shadow ball for coverage. While it may seem like a great Pokemon due to having 110 spattack and 130 speed, it is severely outclassed by magnezone (like all other electric types), who is far bulkier, resists more and has better coverage with flash cannon, which is enough to outweigh the dramatic drop in speed.

i have no idea how magnezone exactly has 'better coverage' than jolteon when magnezone's only other notable offensive move is the great almighty signal beam while jolteon gets to shadow ball too in addition to that and if you're really desperate, double kick or rock smash. flash cannon only hits ice and rock types for SE but those 2 types aren't very common: you will likely not face any more ice types after Kyurem (except for Lapras which is neutral to flash cannon) while the most common rock types you will face is roggenrola's family which is always at least 2hko'd anyway.

also, remember that jolteon has instant utility in walling the hell out of elesa immediately because of volt absorb while magnezone most likely won't even be at lv25 by elesa and struggles against zebstrika because of flame charge. jolteon on the other hand can at least bite it to death while zebstrika is stuck to stomp because jolteon is immune to electric attacks.

honestly yes i feel magnezone is still the best electric type, but jolteon is definitely not 'severely' outclassed, because of volt absorb which allows it to tank electric stuff (granted though electricity is pretty much non-existent past chargestone anyway) but still it has quite a niche there. in fact, with its contribution to elesa i'm pretty much tempted to vote this thing high.

also regarding deerling i realised that it actually does have existent STAB once you get it: with the 10 free red shards you can tutor seed bomb onto it. yeah, can see this being high tier since now it cheeses clay.

Except Flash Cannon has STAB behind it, which makes its rather redundant coverage look a little better. Jolteons only real perk is having the Speed.

As for Pidove vs Mareep, IOS brought up some scary points with these two. I really dont see a tier seperation from them, and if it is Pidove is Low at worst and Mareep is Lower Mid- at best. Having access to Thunder Wave isn't a pass for being so godforsaken slow. Pidove having STAB Return / Frustration as early as it does now helps it out a lot in comparison to its BW1 counterpart, where it was stuck being mediocre with Quick Attack amd Air Cutter for a while. Finally, taking two turns for Fly shouldn't be penalized as harshly as it is right now. Otherwise, we would have to punish Drillbur and the like for taking two turns in battle, when in reality its a measly two second loss.

i have no idea how magnezone exactly has 'better coverage' than jolteon when magnezone's only other notable offensive move is the great almighty signal beam while jolteon gets to shadow ball too in addition to that and if you're really desperate, double kick or rock smash. flash cannon only hits ice and rock types for SE but those 2 types aren't very common: you will likely not face any more ice types after Kyurem (except for Lapras which is neutral to flash cannon) while the most common rock types you will face is roggenrola's family which is always at least 2hko'd anyway.

also, remember that jolteon has instant utility in walling the hell out of elesa immediately because of volt absorb while magnezone most likely won't even be at lv25 by elesa and struggles against zebstrika because of flame charge. jolteon on the other hand can at least bite it to death while zebstrika is stuck to stomp because jolteon is immune to electric attacks.

honestly yes i feel magnezone is still the best electric type, but jolteon is definitely not 'severely' outclassed, because of volt absorb which allows it to tank electric stuff (granted though electricity is pretty much non-existent past chargestone anyway) but still it has quite a niche there. in fact, with its contribution to elesa i'm pretty much tempted to vote this thing high.

also regarding deerling i realised that it actually does have existent STAB once you get it: with the 10 free red shards you can tutor seed bomb onto it. yeah, can see this being high tier since now it cheeses clay.

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Jolteon also has the added trait of dying really quickly to anything it can't kill in one hit while magnezone hits slightly harder and can survive longer

Edit: btw I'm an idiot I never realized that Jolteon was immune to Elesa >.>

Administrator

Sad news, boys and girls. I definitely won't have the time to update this due to the hectic nature of my senior year of college. I'm going to close this thread for now, since I am not going to be able to update and I doubt anyone else wants to sift through a month and a half of posts.

If you are interested in starting the new thread upon the English release of BW2 (October 7th), please leave me a VM or send me a PM. Whoever starts the new thread can either start anew or use this thread as a point of reference.