You have both the words and the context. It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.

It makes a very great deal of sense. Quicky before I goto office. Few variations.

1] It was better for Judas that he (Judas) was not be born because traitors get kicked into hell.2] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas honestly loved Jesus, but he got the worst job in history of man. That's why Judas better wasn't be born.3] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Jesus would never have been born He never had to suffer. For Jesus it would have been best He never was born.4] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Judas would never have been born He never had turned over Jesus. So for Jesus it was better Judas was not be born.

There are many translations and many render this passage differently. Doctrinal bias or perhaps the Greek is so complicated the translator couldn't really figure it out either

Quote

Why would the scripture make that statement? It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests. We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.[/i]

Agreed. But he prayed this:(Matthew 26:39) And, going forward a little, he fell upon his face, offering prayer, and saying––My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from me,––Nevertheless, not as, I, will, but as, thou, wilt.

Did Jesus want to abort His mission? No I think. To me this one line is very closely related to 'better not be born'.

I got to read 250 post by WW .. and all I could say as Jesus hung on the Cross is Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do !! forgiving Judas went into shame and after he realized what he done , this no doubt happened to him as it is written confessed he had sinned and betrayed innocent blood Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that]. thew down the 30 pieces of silver and went and hung himself cursed is a man who hangs on a tree ..

of the 4 choices you give WW i cannot pick one , there is no doubt more choices than those 4 like Jesus knew what would happen all along but Judas sure didnot know!! does any of us know our own hearts in times when we fail the Lord ? and when the Holy Spirit teaches us what error we are in we repent and do over or try to resolve the sin ? as we saw Judas try to do here in this verse above ?

Jesus says Himself right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

pretty plain speech if you ask me ...

For you. For me certainly not. Read post #250. Read the verse list. The word translated as betrayed very often can't mean betrayed. Jesus handed or betrayed the gospel to us?

yeppers back from the weed patch now lol ... LOL.. okey dokey than !! I just believe Jesus Words

The question is not if the words of Jesus can be trusted. The question is "what did Jesus say?"

If you just read one English translation it may be "pretty plain speech".But if compare several English translations you start to see differences (also take a close look at the caps)Once you spotted the differences the question is: Which translation rendered the original Greek words correctly....?

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

You have both the words and the context. It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.

It makes a very great deal of sense. Quicky before I goto office. Few variations.

1] It was better for Judas that he (Judas) was not be born because traitors get kicked into hell.2] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas honestly loved Jesus, but he got the worst job in history of man. That's why Judas better wasn't be born.3] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Jesus would never have been born He never had to suffer. For Jesus it would have been best He never was born.4] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Judas would never have been born He never had turned over Jesus. So for Jesus it was better Judas was not be born.

There are many translations and many render this passage differently. Doctrinal bias or perhaps the Greek is so complicated the translator couldn't really figure it out either

Quote

Why would the scripture make that statement? It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests. We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.[/i]

Agreed. But he prayed this:(Matthew 26:39) And, going forward a little, he fell upon his face, offering prayer, and saying––My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from me,––Nevertheless, not as, I, will, but as, thou, wilt.

Did Jesus want to abort His mission? No I think. To me this one line is very closely related to 'better not be born'.

I got to read 250 post by WW .. and all I could say as Jesus hung on the Cross is Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do !!

I'm not saying Judas was the best saint ever. He sure had lots of flaws

Quote

forgiving Judas went into shame and after he realized what he done

Is there a verse that states that? Very little is written on it. And what is written shows Judas felt bad about it. It doesn't say why? Could indeed be shame. But also other things.

, this no doubt happened to him as it is written confessed he had sinned and betrayed innocent blood Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that]. thew down the 30 pieces of silver and went and hung himself cursed is a man who hangs on a tree ..

Quote

of the 4 choices you give WW i cannot pick one , there is no doubt more choices than those 4 like

I can accept that. But doesn't that prove my point? The verse can be read in to many ways to be useful... (in English)

Quote

Jesus knew what would happen all along but Judas sure didnot know!!

I'm 100% sure Judas knew.I think we can agree all 12 knew the priests didn't like Jesus. They tried to trick Him so they could say he commited blaspheme.The laws were clear about that. Stoning to death. Ever Jew knew that. Especially Judas who was a Jewish priest.So I can't believe Judas would think they just wanted a chat with Jesus and that's it.

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Jesus knew what would happen all along but Judas sure didnot know!!I'm 100% sure Judas knew.I think we can agree all 12 knew the priests didn't like Jesus. They tried to trick Him so they could say he commited blaspheme.The laws were clear about that. Stoning to death. Ever Jew knew that. Especially Judas who was a Jewish priest.So I can't believe Judas would think they just wanted a chat with Jesus and that's it.

Fair enough , WW , Did Judas know that after devil put in his heart he would sin and betray Christ ? Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Jhn 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

I feel this is all cut and dry stuff WW .. reading into that about Jesus telling Judas to betray the Lord is not in scripture anywhere!

some notion not proven what so ever and I find that ridiculous LOL...

what you do , do it quickly ? is the only slight reference to that

yep Jesus knew all along , no argument from me , but the Lord told Judas to do it ?! NO WAY!!!

I've talked with WW about this before, and I believe one thing to consider is that God creates vessels of honor and dishonor - both to fulfill His purpose - just as He created pharoah for a purpose, then hardened his heart. If Judas hadn't fulfilled his purpose, how would the prophecy have been fulfilled? IMO, that's one reason UR is so reassuring, because The Creator "fixes" everything in the end. (All turned to disobedience, have mercy on all) Halleluja!

I've talked with WW about this before, and I believe one thing to consider is that God creates vessels of honor and dishonor - both to fulfill His purpose - just as He created pharoah for a purpose, then hardened his heart. If Judas hadn't fulfilled his purpose, how would the prophecy have been fulfilled? IMO, that's one reason UR is so reassuring, because "fixes" everything in the end. (All turned to disobedience, have mercy on all) Halleluja!

God bless ya!

Sounds good Jabcat!! Judas as a type and more of a metaphor for me these days ..

I still believe they are examples though for our consideration

1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I think it is important not to give Judas a pass on what he did--which I think can justifiably be called a betrayal of the innocent [our Lord], and the taking of innocent blood. From the time of Cain and Abel, betraying innocent blood does not sit well with God, and we see that Cain was cut off from the land, from his family, and from God himself. Likewise, Judas was a co-conspirator in the murder of Christ. It doesn't matter what he thought the priests were going to do to Jesus. The fact that he participated with the plotters in turning over Jesus to them makes him an accessory to murder. He, of course, realized that himself, and repented--but it was too late to change anything.

So we look at the standard set for us by Christ and by Judas and make a choice between the two. Making excuses does not change the act or the character of the man who made the wrong choice.

In fact, the priests never repented and dismissed the concerns of Judas--what is that to us? They broke every law in the book to condemn an innocent man to death. It would be disgusting if it happened at our local courthouse, not to mention an event of this magnitude.

Keep very far from a false matter and (be very careful) not to condemn to death the innocent and the righteous, for I will not justify and acquit the wicked (Ex. 23:7).

Lest innocent blood be shed in your land, which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and so blood guilt be upon you (Deut. 19:10).

Cursed is he who slays his neighbor secretly. All the people shall say, Amen (Deut. 27:24).

Ps. 94:21, There are those who band together to condemn the innocent to death, but the Lord will turn their own iniquity back upon them.

Six things the Lord hates: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that manufactures wicked thoughts and plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who breaths out lies (even under oath), and he who sows discord among the brethren (Pro. 6:17-19).

Their feet run to evil, and they make hast to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts are of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their paths and highways. The way of peace they know not, and there is no justice or right in their goings; they have made them crooked paths; whoever goes in them knows not peace (Isa. 59:7-8).

I think it is important not to give Judas a pass on what he did--which I think can justifiably be called a betrayal of the innocent [our Lord], and the taking of innocent blood.

Hi Molly I would have to say forgivness is the divine nature Christ took on at the Cross Forgive them Father for they know not what they do .. and love your enemies

these things were taught of the Lord , He is the greatest example of the holy nature and those innocent / saints / holy things / new creatures in Christ are a part of Him . the Whole Book is written of Him ! This sacrifice the Lord Jesus Christ / blood of the Lamb was enough to be accepted by the Father for all sin for all time , from the foundation of the world except blaspheming the Holy Spirit

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. this life is but a vapour we have much to look forward to the place is already prepared and waiting for us , with Joy unspeakable and full of glory in the Lord God ...

I so believe the soul part that makes our natures with a flesh body form , this soul is changed by Jesus Christ blood shed in judgment and His mercy on us , its is the works that are judged and seperated , and burned perdition means loss and destruction , those works will be done away with

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. the works will cause shame or joy in the Lord at this point

I do believe Paul was speaking of judgment here If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,

but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;)

that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: some things about the good and evil in the trees of death and life ....

I think it is important not to give Judas a pass on what he did--which I think can justifiably be called a betrayal of the innocent [our Lord], and the taking of innocent blood.

What of YOUR "DOINGS", Molly? Are they not BETRAYAL of "Innocent blood"? And was not, the TAKING of "Innocent blood" in part manifest, due to your "doings"?

So is it ...important not to "give Molly a pass" on what SHE DID?

Those which truly desire to FOLLOW CHRIST, will DO as HEDID...

John 8:10-11 --- when JESUS had lifted up Himself, and saw NONE but the woman, He said unto her: woman, WHERE are those thine ACCUSERS? hath NO MAN CONDEMNED thee? ...she said, NO MAN, Lord... and JESUS said unto her: Neither DO I CONDEMN THEE, go and sin no more.

[1] -- MEN (who had NOT the RIGHT) sought to CAST the STONES of CONDEMNATION at the "sinner"...

[2] -- CHRIST (who had the RIGHT), sought NOT the CASTING of the STONES of CONDEMNATION at the "sinner"...

I feel this is all cut and dry stuff WW .. reading into that about Jesus telling Judas to betray the Lord is not in scripture anywhere!

some notion not proven what so ever and I find that ridiculous LOL...

Your view is equally ridiculous Rosey. Personally I think even more ridiculous because you don't even attempt to base your view on something that's written (in Greek). Last post for me in this thread until something useful is posted. Nothing to gain for me if people don't even want to look below the surface and seem to be very scared to find something that may conflict their views.

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I feel this is all cut and dry stuff WW .. reading into that about Jesus telling Judas to betray the Lord is not in scripture anywhere!

some notion not proven what so ever and I find that ridiculous LOL...

Your view is equally ridiculous Rosey. Personally I think even more ridiculous because you don't even attempt to base your view on something that's written (in Greek). Last post for me in this thread until something useful is posted. Nothing to gain for me if people don't even want to look below the surface and seem to be very scared to find something that may conflict their views.

Ok Fair enough Lol.. I just do Not ever seeing the Lord to tell Judas to do this betrayal thing

I saw where the devil entered Judas heart Tony , during supper That is why I have come to my conclusions that and what Judas says himself , I have sinned and shed innocent blood and how he threw down the 30 pieces of silver and went off and hung himself , Judas knew the customs/law too ya know .. I am certain he was ashamed of his "works " doings good luck finding buyers for that news ... lol I cannot buy it .. looking for proof

Are we really misreading this word, 'traitor,' 'betrayer' as it it translated in these two verses?

Let's say for a moment, that you are right, ww. What would be the implications? That Jesus used Judas, in the foulest form of trickery on the rest of us, to turn him in, by ordering him to do it, knowing full well that Judas would die of a broken heart, be reviled for thousands of years, his character destroyed beyond rehabilitation? Did Jesus use any of his disciples in this way? Or any person at all? This would make Judas the innocent lamb more than Jesus.

Certainly Jesus knew the timing, he knew what would happen, he knew what he would suffer, but, knowing all that, why would he use Judas so despitefully? And, then turn around and add insult to injury by calling Judas the lost son of perdition? Why not just turn himself in?

This impugns the character of Jesus in a way that is unacceptable and contradicts everything we know about the character of Jesus. This would make Jesus the betrayer of one of his own. Does that really make sense to you?

John 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So we are to learn to make judgments about good and evil. But, first we have to learn to tell the difference.

"discern"

to detect with the eyes <discerned a figure approaching through the fog> b : to detect with senses other than vision <discerned a strange odor> 2: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : discriminate <discern right from wrong> 3: to come to know or recognize mentally <unable to discern his motives> intransitive verb: to see or understand the difference

To come to know and recognize--good and evil. To identify, recognize, and understand the difference. And, to make a judgment based on this--diakrisis--from the word, diakrino--

So we are to learn to make judgments about good and evil. But, first we have to learn to tell the difference.

"discern"

to detect with the eyes <discerned a figure approaching through the fog> b : to detect with senses other than vision <discerned a strange odor> 2: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : discriminate <discern right from wrong> 3: to come to know or recognize mentally <unable to discern his motives> intransitive verb: to see or understand the difference

To come to know and recognize--good and evil. To identify, recognize, and understand the difference. And, to make a judgment based on this--diakrisis--from the word, diakrino--

The "angels" to be judged are not of the "Heavenly sort" or the (False) "fallen sort"... ANGEL means MESSENGER... And in the end it is doings (as done BY CHRIST, IN US) concerning RIGHTEOUSNESS that stand as "judgment" of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

ALL JUDGMENT is committed to the SON -- John 5:22 -- ALL means, ...well, ...ALL! ...Men shall NOT judge other men... nor "angelic beings"...

Quote from: willieH

Not to be measuring the WORLD, as compared to ...ourselves.

Quote from: Molly

We measure compared to Christ.

We are instructed BY HIM to abstain from JUDGMENT -- Matt 7:1-2 -- You are welcome to IGNORE this instruction, and make all the "judgments" you desire...

As for me, ...I shall abstain from it completely, for of myself... being a "sinner", ...I am unworthy to judge ANY other "sinner" -- 1 John 1:8

Shadow

We are instructed BY HIM to abstain from JUDGMENT -- Matt 7:1-2 -- You are welcome to IGNORE this instruction, and make all the "judgments" you desire...

As for me, ...I shall abstain from it completely, for of myself... being a "sinner", ...I am unworthy to judge ANY other "sinner" -- 1 John 1:8

The self righteous LOVE to abstain from clear instructions....they deem it as their RIGHT to be judge, jury and executioner, they just want that hammer to drop and are LIVID that they themselves cannot do it

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2 Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? And if you are going to judge the world, aren't you able to judge small cases? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!

--1 Cor 6

God's people will judge [krino] the world. We will judge [krino] angels. Then we should be able to judge [kriterion] the things of this life even more.

Diakrino now--

Hebrews 5:14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

To which end Paul gives the brethren permission to judge--diakrino-- among themselves.

Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge [diakrino] a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

--1 cor 6

« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 09:41:51 AM by Molly »

Logged

Shadow

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2 Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? And if you are going to judge the world, aren't you able to judge small cases? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!

--1 Cor 6

God's people will judge the world. We will judge angels. Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more.

Diakrino now--

Hebrews 5:14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

To which end Paul gives the brethren permission to judge--diakrino-- among themselves.

Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

--1 cor 6

The big question is, what do YOU think that judgment will is, will be.....funny these scriptures have been on my mind for a few days

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.