I don't hear complaints about camping nearly as much in HC modes. I think it's fairly obvious why. When playing Core, however, it's the the complete opposite. The reliance on radar or any form of mini map is so ridiculous that playing without one is uncomfortable.

I've been playing a lot of HC recently because sniping in Core modes is just too unpredictable. Getting hitmarkers with a Lynx + Chrome Barrel is unsettling. As you know there's no standard mini map and what I've found is that Satcoms are used less in HC than in Core. Players adapt to the lack of a mini map and use instinct to guide them. After a while you'll completely find that even when it's called in you don't use it.

In Core modes there's a huge amount assumptions made when a player see an empty radar then dies. The assumption process is instant and outlandish. If only there were a way to accurately track how much time is spent looking at the radar rather than what's in front of a player.

The logic is usually something along the lines of you didn't show on the radar therefore you were hiding and the only reason you're hiding is because you're camping and not showing on radar automatically means camping. This logic is flawed deeply. Maybe it's the all the movies where stealth is associated with a "sit and wait" strategy. Like Rambo hiding against a tree waiting for someone to pass so he grab them and break their neck.

Now, this is just a guess, but I also think that the amount of radar looking contributes to missing obvious things, like a person standing in front of you. Players are quick to call camper in the death chatter but it's pretty obvious that they weren't paying attention to the screen. The reason you didn't see the player who killed wasn't because they were camping, you didn't see them because you weren't paying attention.

It's a rude awakening when you play some HC and realize how much time you spend radar peeking. When you finally call in a Satcom you'll find out real quick how deadly even a the quickest glance up to the top left of your screen can be.

I have no problem admitting that I do radar peek...PEEK...as in glance for less than a second, then eyes back in front.

The problem is when people expect the dots/arrows to ALWAYS be there, as if they're playing a custom game with the radar always turned on, so are constantly just staring at the mini map as if it's the main screen and only using the top slant of their screen to see which way they're going, and it was made semi-possible in games ever since MW2 and on with constant UAV/Spy Plane/AUAV/VSAT/SAT-COM/etc.use. Like I mentioned before, BO2 (largely thanks to the Scorestreak System) had one of my constant chains of UAV, CUAV, and Orbital VSAT, which I was usually able to keep up almost infinitely (due to constant Assist Points), thus my team did have a constant dot/arrow mini map while the opponent's map was constantly jammed. It became THAT easy to do.

I've more and more felt that anything involving the mini map should be higher on streak chains rather than (among) the first and/or easiest things to get in order to help ween people off of relying so much on such things. In turn, if mini map peeking is lowered, then it could also help ween people off of constantly defaulting to things that help them hide from the mini map like Ghost/Assassin/OtG/etc.

I think you're stretching the logic a bit, but I agree that the community is overly reliant on radar and the mini map. I wonder how Core would be without it? You'd probably see a lot less suppressors being equipped.

Actually people still use them in hc just as much as in core but for other reasons. Instead of staying off the radar they are used in hc to make it harder for players to hear where they are being shot from. plus in hc the reduction of range of damage is not an issue since it takes less to kill.

Yes core players rely on the mini map and the pause map too much, this has always been the case. And is why the people who complain about perks like off the grid whine so much about them. Without their pac-man dot they don't know what to do or how to play the game.

I never understood the hate for a radar counter. It's always baffled me. They're the most passive perks available and yet they're hated the most. Hating something like that only shows how dependent a player is on radar.

Yeah, I rarely saw the Counter UAVs used in MW3 or BO2 as opposed to the UAV/AUAV/VSAT and such.

I guess it's also due to pride in seeing any sort of mini map counter Perk/Steak as "camper's tools". Sadly, such pride is what really ends up handicapping people into possibly losing more fights than or just as much as winning them.

Yeah you are about 4 games late with this G. UAV spam has fortunately been knocked down quite a bit in Ghosts, although there are still plenty of satcoms, they aren't nearly as effective as they were just 1 game ago. They should be removed entirely.

You don't hear complaints in HC because the pace is slow in every game. If there isn't a lot of movement you really can't take advantage of it. Funny thing is games like Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon were faster paced than COD HC even though it was a one hit kill. Probably because weapon recoil and gun accuracy in the Redstorm games made it far harder to hit a moving target and don't even try hitting an opponents at range when you were moving. Personally I almost never look at it and don't have satcoms as a streak in any class. Since I don't spay my weapon I find it more important to locate my opponent at range on screen so I find it a distraction for the most part. If it was removed from core it wouldn't effect me at all but I bet those SMG players would be lost without it.

In this game, I use sound to guide my movements as a priority. That is probably due to me using the Astro A40s in this game though. Anyway, on the radar thing, I use the radar to identify my team's direction and "front line." I don't really bother with the red pac-man dots as they will bait you into someone using off the grid. So for me, the radar is still useful. If I know where my team is and where they are spawning and which direction they are going, I can 99% of the time know where the enemy team is and also where their flanking players are. Use that with sound and that's the key to doing well in core. I'm not too concerned with campers. I think they are lazy, but whatever floats their boat.

I do like the no HUD approach in HC and it would be an interesting playlist if they offered no HUD core TDM.

Any tool in this game can become a crutch. I've too run into guys and wondered how they'd not seen me, the only logical assumption is they were looking a something else and in my mind I agree it's most likely the minimap.

However, I'm not sure it's a bigger percentage compared to the people who rely solely on other things awareness enchancement tools, e.g. people who rely on tracker sights or thermal to spot people, or people who rely on sound and therefore amplify. Sure, the people who use mini map frequently will find HC difficult. But I see it in the same way that since DS was buffed, we've had a load of threads to buff amplify, as equally that was a crutch.

Or they were staring down a Thermal or Tracker Sight and you were either...

A.) Not glowing due to Incog and they easily missed you somehow.

B.) Were outside the Tracker Sight's sight. (In the blurred peripheral vision, of which I'm sure many people don't pay THAT close attention to.)

...similar to how a bunch of Target Finder users in BO2 tend to end up handicapped by looking only for the highlight boxes and anyone not highlighted, they assume is a friendly (as, obviously, it didn't highlight friendlies). It's why I found Cold Blooded to be A LOT better than what I saw many people act like/claim it was ("useless", "pointless", etc).

You got my number. I admit it. I am too reliant on the mini map. I try not to be. I tend to look most often when I'm moving around the map and I can't find anyone to shoot. Which is a lot when many of the players seem to be not moving around too much. Seem not to be. I may just be impatient in finding an enemy to take out. But, yes, you make an excellent point. I sometimes play HC so that I'm forced to use only my view.

Weird, i rarely experience 2 satcoms up at once, at least, not long enough to be of concern. Its why i haven't used Off the Grid since launch.

I actually thought this was the first COD that wasn't a case of chasing dots on a map, adding that much needed extra layer of difficulty. I also attributed this to the abundance of play-safers/campers along with map layout. I went back and played other CODs and its as easy as pacman.

With that said, alot of players are so desperate for a red dot that they all go chasing after the one who doesn't use a silencer. I think though, to help against static games players need some sense of location. For me Ghosts has balanced it well.

Somewhat related, i've noticed recently the 'stompees' (those getting stomped) wising up and switching to an Oracle class, good for them.

Edit : I forgot to mention, i recently played on Xbox and i did notice that there was alot more Satcoms. I quickly realised it was due to the amount of 10 year olds playing. Please note, im too old for console wars lol.

No you have mis-understood. It can't be a wild assumption to make, in fact that has been my experience so far, that there are an awful lot of kids playing on Xbox, kids that, will sooner be reaching a Satcom via Assault or Support than a Loki for example. The reason i mentioned it is perhaps the OP was playing on Xbox, i missed it. Im on PS3. Im interested to know in words the thought process which led you to the conclusion that i was refering to 'anyone using them to help their team is juvenile'. Which is a bit stupid really. Don't you think.

Edit : I forgot to mention, i recently played on Xbox and i did notice that there was alot more Satcoms. I quickly realised it was due to the amount of 10 year olds playing. Please note, im too old for console wars lol.

Ok. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why, given my explanation in my reply. I couldn't equate my statement to yours regarding "So.. anyone using them to help their team is juvenile?". Perhaps you could do that for me.

"kids that, will sooner be reaching a Satcom via Assault or Support than a Loki for example."

Im going to make alot more insinuations now aswell, plenty of stuff for you to quote. Here we go.

The very same kids that play COD casually like they are playing Angry Birds. The very same kids that leave the default killstreaks on, Assault or Support.The very same kids with a 0.2/3/4/5 kdr who are rejoicing their 3 killstreak. Thee very same kids who are in abundance on Xbox - in my lowly month playing Xbox.

Of course, this is not to say that only kids use Satcoms, that players who use Satcoms are juvenille, that there is anything wrong with using a Satcom, but that since moving from PS3 to Xbox i have noticed alot more Satcoms and i have equated that to the abundance of children who fall into my criteria - and in my month of play they have made up alot of the playerbase i have encountered. Perhaps i need to play longer to be pushed up in player difficulty, but, that is the reason i added the note to my original post. If the OP is on Xbox i could consider his experience. I still think its a very safe assumption to make and doesn't equate to "So.. anyone using them to help their team is juvenile?".

No sarcasm intended. Of course the Satcom does. As soon as they kill 3 or 4 players and use it they have no choice but to "further their team's objectives". Not something i was commenting on in my posts.

PS is full as just as many kids as Xbox, neither console is better when compared to that. To imply that either one is is just stupid and juvenile to begin with. Neither console is has more mature players than the other and never has.

Not all players that play causal are kids, there are many adults out there that do not care for the win, that are not competitive, that only play for fun. Not all players with low k/d are kids, again not everyone cares about stats as if they are important and need to be high. Not everyone that plays the game that uses the default streaks are kids, not everyone needs to or wants to go for higher streaks nor do they have to ever to not be a kid.

Anyone that tries to use any of those criteria to classify someone as a kid is a kid them self trying to act like they are not.

"PS is full as just as many kids as Xbox, neither console is better when compared to that. To imply that either one is is just stupid and juvenile to begin with. Neither console is has more mature players than the other and never has."

Then we are just flipsides of the coin aren't we brother. Unless you have the age data of the playerbase to compare ? If not, then your authorative statement is much worse than my assumption based on personal experience.

"Not all players that play causal are kids, there are many adults out there that do not care for the win, that are not competitive, that only play for fun. Not all players with low k/d are kids, again not everyone cares about stats as if they are important and need to be high. Not everyone that plays the game that uses the default streaks are kids, not everyone needs to or wants to go for higher streaks nor do they have to ever to not be a kid."

Im afraid that no comment was made refering to 'all' players.

"Anyone that tries to use any of those criteria to classify someone as a kid is a kid them self trying to act like they are not."

does not matter if you did not say all players. Saying that kids are the only ones that do those things is flawed. And there are some kids that are far better than most adults that play this game. I have a friend who's son is better than half the players I ever play against that are adults. He routinely can go 20-5 in tdm with little effort and runs the high end streaks and gets them often. So again to say that kids do not do those things is flawed.

What I am stating is a simple fact that neither console has more mature players and anyone that ever thinks it does is delusional. It would be as dumb as saying that only children and juveniles play on the Wii-U and that is not true either.

I know just as many kids that play on ps as does on xbox. neither is meant for a more mature audience and never was. to claim otherwise is ignorance at its finest. Just because you have run in to more on one or another does not make your assumption any more valid.

Don't try and play a game of semantics with me, many try that and fail.

"And there are some kids that are far better than most adults that play this game."

Sure why not.

"What I am stating is a simple fact that neither console has more mature players".

Ok, its a fact. (that was sarcasm)

"Just because you have run in to more on one or another does not make your assumption any more valid."

I agree with you there. However if you read, i added that note simply because i would consider the OPs stance if he was on Xbox. I guess nothing has moved on and one should always add 'in my experience' to the end of sentences. Cheers.

I dont really care for HC, its not the damage or friendly fire, its the mini-map. I depend on it way too much, and I do miss obvious things. I'll be looking at the mini-map and run into an enemy who knifes me, internally i say 'what the hell?', then i think and realize, were are my eyes? Gotta love and hate the mini-map.

Radar is great for any Arcade shooter. It keeps players moving. Lack of radar in Ghosts is the primary reason it is severely underpaced for a COD. Personally, I'd rather play with over dependent radar users running around with a false sense of confidence than with players too afraid to move because players could be hiding anywhere.

Yea this the problem Thom. I think they wanted to increase the difficulty and change the playstyle a bit. In doing so they risk tedium for a portion of the playerbase.I personally like the balance they achieved since you are still able to play any style you like, abeit, some more difficult than others.Sit-Rep and Amplify has helped me to do all the running.

The radar can be of use without a satcom up. By looking at where my team is located and with the assumption that the other team is spawning where nobody is I head, or face, in that general direction. If a blue dot disappears I assume that the area is 'hot' and where the action is. The non-information becomes better if you are in a stable lobby as most randoms will take the same routes through the a map Game after game as it comes up.

Granted most of my play is with a party of 4-6 on weekends and 2-3 during the week which makes life a lot easier as we have developed our clearing strategy for most maps and everybody has a role with weapons ranging from Shottys Through the LMGs with an occasional sniper rifle on the larger maps. Ultimately this game is no different then most of the previous versions. Control the maps, control the spawns to keep the action in front of you and have overlapping arcs of fire with a dash of luck and most people will have success. Of course this all goes out the window arounf 11pm on weekends when most of my party is through a 12-pack of beer or a fifth of whiskey.