I suppose this whole bong sao argument depends on your definition of bong sao. As I see it, the actual bong sau part is the rolling of the elbow forward, the forearm angled slightly in front of and below the elbow. Attacks can continue from the bong sao position, and while some say the attack of striking forward with the elbow is part of the bong sao, I would consider it a different movement. Attacking with the elbow or an forearm can both be possible depending on the situation, but I don't consider either of these to be part of the bong sao.
The reason bong sao is performed so many times in the cham kiu form is because it is relatively difficult to perform properly, and needs to be slowly and continually trained like the fuk and gan in the siu nim tao. The cham kiu also demonstrates 4 variations of the bong, both as a soft movement as a result of redirecting movement, and also as a hard block for when the arms are down and not ready.

I like to use both bong sao and lahn sao pins in sparring. They are similar movements but work a bit differently.

With the lahn sao you pin their arm into their body with the fore arm as you step in. This often feels like being hit by their elbow/forearm followed by a push/pin with the whole body.

With the bong sao pin I mentioned you are pinning down as you slam down (and in) with the elbow as you step in.

So the vectors of force are a bit different.

But yes you can also use bong sao as a straight in pin like the lahn sao pin you described.

Originally Posted by Tabogganwheel

I suppose this whole bong sao argument depends on your definition of bong sao. As I see it, the actual bong sau part is the rolling of the elbow forward, the forearm angled slightly in front of and below the elbow. Attacks can continue from the bong sao position, and while some say the attack of striking forward with the elbow is part of the bong sao, I would consider it a different movement. Attacking with the elbow or an forearm can both be possible depending on the situation, but I don't consider either of these to be part of the bong sao.
The reason bong sao is performed so many times in the cham kiu form is because it is relatively difficult to perform properly, and needs to be slowly and continually trained like the fuk and gan in the siu nim tao. The cham kiu also demonstrates 4 variations of the bong, both as a soft movement as a result of redirecting movement, and also as a hard block for when the arms are down and not ready.

Yes to both, it's an apples and oranges but they are both round fruit kinda thing....

Bong is not a movement, that is not just WT saying, it is old school, even carved onto stone in China by Moy Yat I believe...You can not then Attack with it or "use" the shape to do anything.

It really is only the rolling action of the shape. and guess what? if you roll a proper Man sau over, it becomes a Bong!! Same shape in the arm. You can see this in the first two pics I posted above.

But as lefty speaks, it is fine to say "attack with Bong" it does get a message across.

Here is the Rolling fist from bong Lefty is talking about, I think. Just use it for number 3.

and here is Lan sau as an intercept. Lefty is talking about using it closer as a strike I think. From here, you could go to Pic 2, bong. Or Pic 1, inside punch from Man sau. Or other stuff .

"If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event

The bong sao roll example is the roll from bong sao to fisted tahn but it should be done at closer range. The idea is to grab the guy's wrist to control the arm with the helping hand that way you can pull them into the uppercut afterward and do an arm break, then throw etc.

About the lahn sao pic: I wouldnt try to pin a guy's arm up into the air with the lahn sao like that guy does. They may slip a punch over the lahn or push down with a strong jut sao and grab my arm, while punching with the other arm. Usually the person who has the hand on top has an advantage.

I'd use a bong sao pin vs a high arm coming in. I'd use lahn sao pin if their arm was low to pin their arm down as I step in.

AAAh, ya, Lan is better on top. I Put that pic up just as an exmple for the discussion.

Closer ofcoarse, but then you cann't see much in a picture....:-)

In those picture the guy was punching and the WT defended, so in each one it is a punch being revectored away. He could do a jut or lop himself, as Lefty suggests, but for the timing of the pic, he is still trying to punch. If He did this counter to the lan, it could be like my second pic set earlier, with the roles revesed. and yes, I forgot to put the lop grab in with this rolling bong to punch pic.

also, Tan with fist, I have sen hat before. I choose to put in a verrtical fist, so it is rolling to thrust punch. WT likes to roll into it with a vertical fist, to keep the "man Sau" effect if they counter, and to have the ulna bone cutting down into them. I do like that "pull them into the lifting punch" though. In WT terms that is the Jut/ Shun punch cycle and in Bruce Lee terms it is the Pak dar lop dar back fist cycle I think.

Its funny, sometimes when working these things out, we get into this kinda thing:"but then I would do this____", "But if you did that, I would do this____" and it goes back and forth for awhile. Every move has a counter, but only so many things can be done at the same time. It would be cool to make a photo set flow chart with all the options mapped out. Ting put one in the "wing tsun kuen" book for the First Secion of Chi Sau. I should do one....

:bully:

Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/17/2005 7:08pm at .

"If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event