All good stuff. All the more reason to take advantage of the recent publicity & to re-start the UOC events.

The Raisuli

Python2

01-20-2010, 7:34 AM

Heck yeah, I agree, seeing a gun in public is intimidating......... that is from the point of view of a sheep. Otherwise, good reporting.

ChuckBooty

01-20-2010, 8:27 AM

Looks like that first guy on there also practices OCPT....Open Carry a Pair of Tweezers!

MudCamper

01-20-2010, 8:38 AM

Good video. The arguments against carry here are the same flawed and irrational arguments we always see against gun ownership in general. "They're untrained." "They might start shooting up the store." "I'm not used to it. It's scary." I love the little kid's response. It's priceless. "It's kinda cool. I want to learn to shoot."

woodey

01-20-2010, 9:07 AM

Now that was a nice peace

sfpcservice

01-20-2010, 9:21 AM

Does it seem like the News is warming up to guns or what?

And as far as the older lady who thought it should be done in private, I do. I'm the guy in line at Peets with a concealed firearm and the ammunition in the weapon. Is that better?

Elucidus

01-20-2010, 9:30 AM

Does it seem like the News is warming up to guns or what?

And as far as the older lady who thought it should be done in private, I do. I'm the guy in line at Peets with a concealed firearm and the ammunition in the weapon. Is that better?

Definitely. Count me in. Now all I need is a permit. :(

As for the lady, I thought she was suggesting that at first, but she ultimately gave me the impression that she felt all gun owners should hide away in little holes and worship their guns like a cult.

Maestro Pistolero

01-20-2010, 10:42 AM

Wow, very balanced. I noticed that the people who were supposed to be intimidated were not running for their lives.

SJgunguy24

01-20-2010, 11:14 AM

A bad guy walks in and see's 6 armed people, you think he's gonna rob that place?
I'll take a fighting chance any day versus no chance at all.

swhatb

01-20-2010, 11:27 AM

Anybody got the link with actual video and story on the www.insidebayarea.com web site? Couldn't find it.

Whlci8a5qWU

pullnshoot25

01-20-2010, 11:33 AM

This is pretty cool.

Now, if we can just get OC guys AWAY FROM ANY STORE THAT SELLS CAFFEINE PRODUCTS, that would be nice. Seriously.

Gio

01-20-2010, 11:50 AM

Good stuff, I am glad more and more events like these are happening near where I live. The San Mateo DA is a frigging joke :rolleyes:

-Gio

Crusader Matt

01-20-2010, 11:58 AM

That was funny when that Brady guy said that it causes fear and intimidation. YEAH, because people like him have made people feel like guns are taboo and filled them with FUD. Its his own by-product, yet he blames it on us. He was full of it.

cmth

01-20-2010, 2:17 PM

This past Saturday, there were 16 visibly armed individuals eating lunch at the Swing Inn Cafe in Temecula, and nobody ran out of the restaurant in fear. Probably no safer place in town to eat lunch that day.

Maestro Pistolero

01-20-2010, 2:45 PM

OMG, they have guns!!!! Run . . wait, no . . . finish those fries and let's get out of here before they start . . . could you pass the ketchup . . .before they start shooting at us.

BlindRacer

01-20-2010, 3:43 PM

“I think they carry guns in part to intimidate people. Um and-and it does intimidate people. Um, you know, rightfully it makes people afraid and-and-uh um, you know, because it makes them less safe.”

How is a person who is paid to carry a gun (cop) for protection of himself and those around him, any safer than a person who is volunteering to carry for protection of himself and those around him? Oh, it's probably the same logic that a gun that is on 'THE LIST' is safer than one that is not because you have to pay to be on 'THE LIST'

“In the case of open carrying guns into stores, I don’t want someone who’s untrained, and I’m not at all sure he’s a responsible person, to have a gun, and the ammunition clip right there with him. And for him to be able to put that in and start shooting in a crowded store. That’s not a safe thing.”

Because a person openly wearing a gun, and especially one who is obeying the law by carrying unloaded is SOO likely to 'start shooting in a crowded store'. It's like, by carrying a gun, you instantly turn into a homicidal criminal.

Has any and all common sense and free thought gone out the window? A person who carries makes it safer for himself and anyone around him. It's just sad that people can't understand that.

sammy

01-20-2010, 4:04 PM

Small world. Rick Palmer is my sales rep for corrigauted materal. I will put him up to speed on this. Sammy

Lifeofahero

01-20-2010, 5:37 PM

Does it seem like the News is warming up to guns or what?

YES they are!!! The News Media, just like the little kid in the video, "thought it was kinda cool and interesting." !!! :D

CaliforniaCarry

01-20-2010, 5:47 PM

Wow. I'll admit, I'm surprised. This is the most well-balanced OC coverage I have seen yet.

Elucidus

01-20-2010, 6:07 PM

I wonder if the news media is starting to glorify guns after having detected an upswing in public interest in 2A rights... gotta keep the viewers happy?

corrupt

01-20-2010, 6:34 PM

Has anyone been ambushed and/or killed for their UOC pistol, yet?

CitaDeL

01-20-2010, 7:03 PM

Has anyone been ambushed and/or killed for their UOC pistol, yet?

Sounds like a good way to get your jaw broke and your *** handed to you.

corrupt

01-20-2010, 7:19 PM

That's one of my biggest concerns. Someone getting ambushed, and the general public saying, "told ya so".

I understand that many UOC ladies and gents are choosing their meetup locations carefully, but for those that are just doing it solo... Watch out.

And as I understand it, it could only be a matter of months before we could see legal CCW on the horizon.

For these reasons, even though I am a infantry combat vet who feels naked without a weapon, I am willing to wait and fight for those rights in order to do it in more of a tactically sound and practical way (real CCW).

Just my opinion after reading and watching all the threads and media coverage.

In the meantime I do carry a LUCC baby browning and knife... At least then if I have to use it, I won't be executed first just for my UOC piece.

Lagduf

01-20-2010, 7:56 PM

I don't understand the whole "I don't want to see it" argument.

Does that necessarily imply they're ok if they can't see the gun?

Also the Brady guy said clip when he meant magazine and that annoyed me.

N6ATF

01-20-2010, 8:03 PM

At least then if I have to use it, I won't be executed first just for my UOC piece.

Sure, if instead of taking the tested ~2.0 seconds to load and fire, you made sure you were the first UOCer ever to be killed by acting in a fashion that would insult even the retarded. How fast is your LUCC motion?

demnogis

01-20-2010, 8:03 PM

I've been approached from the front, shaken hands and sent on my way by a LEO. Does that count?

Has anyone been ambushed and/or killed for their UOC pistol, yet?

Liberty1

01-20-2010, 8:20 PM

...do it in more of a tactically sound and practical way (real CCW).

The California political and legal realities aside, please consider this tactical argument (http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html) and this open carry self defense event (http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/9050-man-open-carrying-not-robbed.html).

Liberty1

01-20-2010, 9:13 PM

Anybody got the link with actual video and story on the www.insidebayarea.com web site? Couldn't find it.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/video

Pyrodyne

01-20-2010, 9:58 PM

For your entertainment:

I noticed that the anti's in this video had an extremely annoying habit - they say "ummm" every few seconds.

And so, here is the score sheet!

Walter Stanley
1

Morely Pitt
6

Griggin Dix
4
Also said clip instead of magazine. Unless he thinks that people regularly carry an 1896 Mauser C96 or a 1912 Steyr-Hahn..... low and mumbly

Debby Mitchell
0, but low and mumbly

Rick Palmer
1

John Steward
2

Lottie Goddard
1, cute kid

coolusername2007

01-20-2010, 10:23 PM

Has anyone been ambushed and/or killed for their UOC pistol, yet?

No, but one security guard seriously got what was coming to him for trying. See this thread over at OCDO. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/36094.html

corrupt

01-20-2010, 11:49 PM

Would anyone here UOC in Oakland? I hope not. I hope that people continue to UOC (or not) in planned groups as an expression of your rights where the most that will happen is you scare liberals. Or even out in the boonies where it's unlikely that someone would shoot you from behind just to get your gun. For me, I live in an area where people are killed over a few bucks or nothing at all.

I'm not even gonna argue about making ready a uoc vs lucc weapon. My point is I hope someone doesn't make a bad decision and get themselves killed because they want to carry a gun on their hip. If someone sees something they want and make a plan to shoot or stab you for your gun, they will have all the advantages against you. And give me a break, hardly anyone knows how to throw a punch these days, don't pretend that you magically have all the skills of a security guard licensed by the state to carry a weapon.

I just hope no ones idiotic enough to get themselves killed, but then I've seen people do idiotic things, who weren't necessarily idiots, and get killed.

PS I'm not chastising anyone for UOC, I'm just hoping that everyone will think about it very carefully. Cheers.

MudCamper

01-20-2010, 11:53 PM

Would anyone here UOC in Oakland? I hope not. I hope that people continue to UOC (or not) in planned groups as an expression of your rights where the most that will happen is you scare liberals. Or even out in the boonies where it's unlikely that someone would shoot you from behind just to get your gun. For me, I live in an area where people are killed over a few bucks or nothing at all.

I'm not even gonna argue about making ready a uoc vs lucc weapon. My point is I hope someone doesn't make a bad decision and get themselves killed because they want to carry a gun on their hip. If someone sees something they want and make a plan to shoot or stab you for your gun, they will have all the advantages against you. And give me a break, hardly anyone knows how to throw a punch these days, don't pretend that you magically have all the skills of a security guard licensed by the state to carry a weapon.

I just hope no ones idiotic enough to get themselves killed, but then I've seen people do idiotic things, who weren't necessarily idiots, and get killed.

I was just watching Personal Defense TV tonight, and on it, Masaad Ayoob said that the NYPD has done studies, based on their off-duty and plain-clothed officers, and you are more likely to have your CCW weapon taken from you by a bad guy than an OC weapon. The hypothesis as to why is psychology, specifically that the OCer is more aware of his weapon and tends to guard it.

corrupt

01-21-2010, 12:18 AM

I was just watching Personal Defense TV tonight, and on it, Masaad Ayoob said that the NYPD has done studies, based on their off-duty and plain-clothed officers, and you are more likely to have your CCW weapon taken from you by a bad guy than an OC weapon. The hypothesis as to why is psychology, specifically that the OCer is more aware of his weapon and tends to guard it.

And give me a break, hardly anyone knows how to throw a punch these days, don't pretend that you magically have all the skills of a security guard licensed by the state to carry a weapon.

ROTFLMAO

Having actually been through all the armed security guard "training" required by the state, that statement was an...

http://kevinrobinson.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/epic-fail2.jpg

corrupt

01-21-2010, 2:57 AM

ROTFLMAO

Having actually been through all the armed security guard "training" required by the state, that statement was an...

http://kevinrobinson.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/epic-fail2.jpg

Wow, so are you saying that you feel that your training on how to properly carry a loaded firearm in California was a joke? How sad. Do they not teach you how to defend your firearm from a take-away or fight on the ground while protecting your firearm, etc?

How do you think someone who doesn't train, or is untrained on carrying openly in public would react if someone went for their gun? Would they instantly knock the guy out like that security guard (from another state...) ? Would they even be able to react if someone grabbed their weapon out of their thumb-strapless kydex holster (like I've seen some UOC blokes on TV use) and ran off with it? Most people (in my experiences with training) want to grab the persons hands and play this game of pry-the-hands-off-my-gun with their opponent an they take way too long to get on the offensive and subdue them, if they ever get to that point.

So anyway, again I'm not telling anyone what to do, I just hope everyone thinks about the potential outcomes and responsibilities of UOC, that's all. If I were going to UOC, I'd ask questions like, what if someone wants to box? Am I going to point a pistol at an unarmed assailant and hope he leaves? What if he runs at me, am I going to shoot him? Am I too pround to run away from something even if it means potential jail time or death? Am I ready to be at 100% situational awareness all the time?

Where I live, cops get ambushed, so I'm not going to go carry openly, but for everyone else I just hope you make good decisions that won't spur needless legislation or end up injurin yourselves.

Mulay El Raisuli

01-21-2010, 5:29 AM

I wonder if the news media is starting to glorify guns after having detected an upswing in public interest in 2A rights... gotta keep the viewers happy?

I think you're right. And the more I think about it, the better this is. If the media is a reflection of public attitudes (as opposed to the bright shining light leading us all on to a greater truth & whatnot) then the increasingly favorable presentation of UOC is a reflection of the increasingly favorable view of UOC by the general public. In fact, given the extreme bias we've all seen from the media, this increasing acceptance is likely real strong or it wouldn't have come to the attention of the media in the first place.

Not only does this mean we're winning the PR battle, it also means that by stopping the UOC events, all we accomplished was a waste of time/opportunity to educate the public. Which means that its past time for us to re-start them.

The Raisuli

cdtx2001

01-21-2010, 5:51 AM

[

Has any and all common sense and free thought gone out the window?

Yes it has, at least for the general public it has.

MudCamper

01-21-2010, 10:55 AM

I was just watching Personal Defense TV tonight, and on it, Masaad Ayoob said that the NYPD has done studies, based on their off-duty and plain-clothed officers, and you are more likely to have your CCW weapon taken from you by a bad guy than an OC weapon. The hypothesis as to why is psychology, specifically that the OCer is more aware of his weapon and tends to guard it.

Level of training, maybe. But maybe not. UOCers tend to be pretty serious about their "hobby", whereas many cops tend to not be gun enthusiasts. To them, it's just a tool they have to lug for their job. Just look at Army's UOC video. Three LAPD cops couldn't figure out how to get the mag out of his 1911. That proves that they are not very familiar with firearms, outside of their Glock service pistol.

My point was, that in a given group of people, that have actually been statistically analyzed, the CCWers have a higher probability of having their weapons grabbed by bad guys than the OCers. You may not like it, but a study like that holds more weight to me than your uninformed opinion on the matter.

pullnshoot25

01-21-2010, 11:06 AM

corrupt... an apt name for a seemingly statist individual.

GrizzlyGuy

01-21-2010, 11:13 AM

My point was, that in a given group of people, that have actually been statistically analyzed, the CCWers have a higher probability of having their weapons grabbed by bad guys than the OCers. You may not like it, but a study like that holds more weight to me than your uninformed opinion on the matter.

And if the bad guy is experienced, they should be able to spot someone carrying concealed pretty easily. NYPD even explained how to do this (http://concealedcarryholsters.org/spotting-a-concealed-handgun/), complete with pictures and diagrams.

wildhawker

01-21-2010, 11:15 AM

I think you're right. And the more I think about it, the better this is. If the media is a reflection of public attitudes (as opposed to the bright shining light leading us all on to a greater truth & whatnot) then the increasingly favorable presentation of UOC is a reflection of the increasingly favorable view of UOC by the general public. In fact, given the extreme bias we've all seen from the media, this increasing acceptance is likely real strong or it wouldn't have come to the attention of the media in the first place.

This is a reach.

Not only does this mean we're winning the PR battle, it also means that by stopping the UOC events, all we accomplished was a waste of time/opportunity to educate the public.

Again, a reach. Further, drawing conclusions such as those above are unwise and generally unproductive.

Which means that its past time for us to re-start them.

The Raisuli

At this point UOC has limited downside so I will generally agree, although I maintain my position that the UOC community must organize and execute much better if it is to succeed in its mission (although I'm still unclear on what that is).

DDRH

01-21-2010, 11:20 AM

coo video!

N6ATF

01-21-2010, 12:03 PM

Wow, so are you saying that you feel that your training on how to properly carry a loaded firearm in California was a joke? How sad. Do they not teach you how to defend your firearm from a take-away or fight on the ground while protecting your firearm, etc?

For all intents and purposes. Lecture, no lab, no blue guns, no physical training. Went something like "If you ever get an attempted gun-grab, that is a deadly threat and anything goes. Press down on the holstered gun with both hands. Swing your elbow (a quite effective weapon) back up at the BG's head. Stomp feet, kick out kneecaps. If you have a baton, and you lose control of the gun, deploy it. Most importantly, don't ever get complacent enough to be a victim. Okay? Done."

These were quasi-government (community college, retired GS) employees teaching (for what I can only give the benefit of the doubt was) the state-mandated curriculum. It's no wonder security guards in this state are disarmed at a frightening level.

corrupt

01-21-2010, 9:30 PM

For all intents and purposes. Lecture, no lab, no blue guns, no physical training. Went something like "If you ever get an attempted gun-grab, that is a deadly threat and anything goes. Press down on the holstered gun with both hands. Swing your elbow (a quite effective weapon) back up at the BG's head. Stomp feet, kick out kneecaps. If you have a baton, and you lose control of the gun, deploy it. Most importantly, don't ever get complacent enough to be a victim. Okay? Done."

These were quasi-government (community college, retired GS) employees teaching (for what I can only give the benefit of the doubt was) the state-mandated curriculum. It's no wonder security guards in this state are disarmed at a frightening level.

No practical application of the training or anything? What a bunch of crap.

Thanks for the informative post, it's much better than being accused of having a statist opinion. I am a young guy who is very receptive to other's opinions, so thanks for the posts. I mean, can you blame me for being concerned? I still am 'cause there's always one: don't be the one ;)

marshaul

01-22-2010, 6:17 AM

That's one of my biggest concerns. Someone getting ambushed, and the general public saying, "told ya so".

I understand that many UOC ladies and gents are choosing their meetup locations carefully, but for those that are just doing it solo... Watch out.

And as I understand it, it could only be a matter of months before we could see legal CCW on the horizon.

For these reasons, even though I am a infantry combat vet who feels naked without a weapon, I am willing to wait and fight for those rights in order to do it in more of a tactically sound and practical way (real CCW).

Just my opinion after reading and watching all the threads and media coverage.

In the meantime I do carry a LUCC baby browning and knife... At least then if I have to use it, I won't be executed first just for my UOC piece.
These fantastical arguments are still considered valid?

You realize, of course, that the U.S. is a huge place with many states, many of which have very liberal gun laws and active gun cultures compared to California, and accordingly thousands of people OC across the U.S. every day (I know it seems unbelievable to many in California)? Yet, somehow, people aren't being "ambushed" and "executed" at any rate whatsoever.

Where does this mindless paranoia come from? Anti-gun plants and shills in our midst?

Mulay El Raisuli

01-22-2010, 6:29 AM

At this point UOC has limited downside so I will generally agree, although I maintain my position that the UOC community must organize and execute much better if it is to succeed in its mission (although I'm still unclear on what that is).

Our mission is to reach out to the public. By the facts presented, it seems to be working. Do you have any facts (as opposed to the mere opinion that I'm just "reaching) to present that show it isn't?

As I see it, we've got minimal to no downside, coupled some measure of success. All this w/o any real organization. But I'd like some more organization, too. Just so we can build on what we've achieved so far.

The Raisuli

marshaul

01-22-2010, 7:52 AM

I think you're right. And the more I think about it, the better this is. If the media is a reflection of public attitudes (as opposed to the bright shining light leading us all on to a greater truth & whatnot) then the increasingly favorable presentation of UOC is a reflection of the increasingly favorable view of UOC by the general public. In fact, given the extreme bias we've all seen from the media, this increasing acceptance is likely real strong or it wouldn't have come to the attention of the media in the first place.

Not only does this mean we're winning the PR battle, it also means that by stopping the UOC events, all we accomplished was a waste of time/opportunity to educate the public. Which means that its past time for us to re-start them.

The Raisuli
Now that "LOC died in California on 1/1/10 due to OC", UOC is our only tool to get LOC back in California. That may seem ironic, except...

As I (and others) have said for at least a year, we will never win this war without public support.

Permitted OC was never good enough anyway. I'm not sure how hiding in the closet to preserve that privilege for the lucky few was ever supposed to benefit California as a whole. The whole "stand down" thing seems to have been an incredibly selfish request, in retrospect. Why should we waste time so that a privileged few can continue enjoy something we all ought to have by right, while the rest of us are left out in the cold? Now that I know the reason behind the request, I can comfortably assert that it required an act of self-harming selflessness that I would never willingly, with full precognition, undertake ever again.

You all have borrowed your favor. Don't expect another until it begins to be repaid (and continuing to fight for shall-issue CCW, while admirable, doesn't cut it).

With effective carry activism we might actually win the PR war enough to, eventually, convince the CA public and their representatives that LOC is safer for everybody.

This kind of coverage shows that positive change is not just possible, but likely. The notion that we need to hide because Californians will never accept us, until one day we have our rights restored by judicial fiat and can surprise the populace with OC everywhere, is rather absurd. Clearly, the courts aren't going to hand us one form of carry so long as the other is allowed. If Gene et al. really want to "OC a rifle in an urban mall setting", it's fantasy to think that their current strategies will ever accomplish that.

I think that many involved with the inner workings of Calguns have developed something of an ego with regard to their significance (see basically every post by atherd on the topic of UOC), and specifically the inability of anybody else to accomplish anything.

Personally, now that "UOC can no longer cause any harm", I think it's time for CGF to acknowledge UOC as a useful tool in our shared arsenal of 2A advocacy. If we really want LOC, it's time to admit that the courts very likely can't or won't deliver. If we really want LOC, it's time for prominent members (like atherd) to stop making snide remarks about our supposed failure to "educate the public", and for CGF itself to encourage public advocacy, which is clearly the most practical means for achieving LOC in California.

With all that said, I hope the moderators understand that I don't mean to be needlessly insulting to anybody. I'm just saying, as always, what I feel needs to be said.

marshaul

01-22-2010, 7:56 AM

NYPD even explained how to do this (http://concealedcarryholsters.org/spotting-a-concealed-handgun/), complete with pictures and diagrams.

I've seen that before. At the time, I believe I remarked that "now I see why NY has such an impossible time enforcing their prohibitions against carrying firearms".

This is a reach.

Honestly, in light of the evidence, I believe this statement of yours is, ironically, the biggest "reach" here.