There is a time for punishment. No doubt. Those guilty for 9/11 deserve it.

But aren't we supposed to be better than this? Wasn't there something noble, almost chivalric, about us? Sometime?

Anyone here remember 5th grade American History? Remember how John Adams defended the British Soldiers who were part of the Boston Massacre? If you need a refresher course, may I suggest this: Click Here.

Excerpt:

"If John Adams took the case, it might cost him hisposition as a patriot leader (at least for a time).

Adams believed that justice would be servedthrough a fair trial.

Adams believed that a fair trial was crucial to thesuccess of the American cause and future.

Although he defended the soldiers, Adamsbelieved that the tragedy was the result of Britishinjustices and government. "

I think 9/11 tragedy occured because of a gross injustice on the part of a few fanatics.

But I believe in American ideals. Not because they're tradition but because they are good and decent. They're stronger and sounder than any religious horsehit. And they should apply to all.

But along the way, we've lost that. We've decided that playground rules and playground diplomacy are a-ok.

Maybe I'm going to sound barbaric to you, but what was horribly disturbing about those photos?

Damned if I can tell. I saw them this morning and was like "So what?" they are in Afghanistan, being transported out. Are we supposed to fly them first class on United? the guys had their hands and feet restrained like any prisoner in transit would. I see those bands across their bodies as keeping them in place so they all don't roll around like bowling pins when the plane makes any kind of turn.

The only thing that bugs me is that the photos were leaked. I'd be curious as to who took them and why. If it was just a GI looking for some souveniers then I think some discipline would be in order because taking pics of guys like that is a little unprofessional. But maybe the pics were taken in order to prove the terrorists weren't being harmed during transit and then some peacenik leaked them to the press trying to make it look like they were mistreated.

If you are in the business of transporting rabid animals who will bite you any chance they get, you need to restrain them well. And that's what these terrorists are: animals. They were restrained and it doesn't look to me like it hurt at all. But I just know some granola eating, long haired, sandal and love bead wearing pinko hippies will be all over my tv when I watch the news complaining about this.

I don't understand what the problem is. Would we have been treated any better by the enemy?

(edited by evilwaldo on 8.11.02 1710)These commercials are superfine because they pay for the production costs of putting CHRIS MOTHERFUCKING BENOIT on my GODDAMN TV SCREEN! I will GO GREYHOUND! I am thinking OUTSIDE THE BUN! – Dean Rasmussen 8/1/2002 Smackdown Workrate Report

Originally posted by evilwaldoI don't understand what the problem is. Would we have been treated any better by the enemy?

(edited by evilwaldo on 8.11.02 1710)

No.

But that's not my point.

My point is that we are better than this. You can even turn the word 'this' into 'them', if you want to.

In America we always throw around the words "rights" and "freedom". I think these are our hallmarks. Not only that, but I think we've made them our international standards from the Monroe Doctrine on. To me, and I think to many of the founding fathers these ideas applied to humanity, not just to Americans.

Originally posted by cranlsnMaybe I'm going to sound barbaric to you, but what was horribly disturbing about those photos? Yes, they were bound and blindfolded, but they didn't look to be being beaten or abused.

You don't sound barbaric to me.

I think we could have done better. There's a difference between a man in a non conventional army and a man who is a prisoner. I don't think the prisoners should have had any real freedom to move freely, that would reduce any risk of harm...

But the binding as it was restricted all movement of almost any kind. Unnecessary, plain and simple. Why was this necessary? If it was to protect from jarring movements mid flight, then why were the soldiers not similarly protected?

Let me ask you this... Why did that all of that seem normal?

By the way... This:

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleIf you are in the business of transporting rabid animals who will bite you any chance they get, you need to restrain them well. And that's what these terrorists are: animals.

Is not an answer.

I'm assuming you know how dark history has been...

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleThe only thing that bugs me is that the photos were leaked.

You know what... me too.

Probably those fairies in the liberal media...

How dare they, anyway?! We don't have a right to see what our government does. We just need to shut the fuck up and know that whatever they're doing is good and Holy and true.

Originally posted by evilwaldoI don't understand what the problem is. Would we have been treated any better by the enemy?

(edited by evilwaldo on 8.11.02 1710)

No, we wouldn't, but I thought we were supposed to be better people than them.

(edited by OlFuzzyBastard on 8.11.02 1912)"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have always been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end, they always fall. Think of it, always."-------Gandhi

I think we could have done better. There's a difference between a man in a non conventional army and a man who is a prisoner. I don't think the prisoners should have had any real freedom to move freely, that would reduce any risk of harm...

But the binding as it was restricted all movement of almost any kind. Unnecessary, plain and simple. Why was this necessary? If it was to protect from jarring movements mid flight, then why were the soldiers not similarly protected?

Let me ask you this... Why did that all of that seem normal?

I'm not a military man, and I'll assume your not as well. How do we know that this was unnecessary. These could have been prisoners identified as top trained Al Qaeda, or they could have been grunts...we don't know.

As to why the soldiers aren't protected...most of them looked to be seat belted, and NOT blindfolded. Also they were probably trained for flight. They looked to have been checking the prisoners to make sure that no one was trying to get loose.

Again that's all assumption by me...I WASN'T there and neither were any of the people saying "This is terrible!".

As to the photos being leaked...gee, you're right. Maybe we should photograph and video all of our military training exercises and broadcast those too. That way it would be "fair" and every enemy would know what to expect from us.

I'm going to wait and see what our military has to say about this, and wait for everyone to say "Well, of course THEY'D say that.", when a rational explanation is forthcoming.

This STILL doesn't look that terrible to me. Considering what most men in the military probably WANTED to do to them? I'd say they were being treated very well.

Nah, these pictures don't bother me at all. They don't seem to be mistreated, and remember these are military transport planes. They were not designed for mass prisoner transport. I think the military did a pretty good job of keeping the prisoners under lock and key.

Now if any of them were US citizens, and they were denied their basic rights (like a trial, or an attourney) then I'd be pissed. But it seems most people have forgotten about that?

-Jag

With poison running through your veins, and death marching solemnly towards you, heroic acts become more of a necessity as you see your time dwindling.

Vanquishing your enemies, making amends to those you have wronged, and leaving words of love and kindness for those around you become second nature as your own mortality looms

However, true strength lies not in these last desperate acts, but in the actions of one who has to get out of bed the next day and face the consequences of doing that which you believe is right.

I just got out of the Military. I can tell you, the reason these photos were taken was probably a person documenting a part of thier career, something that they will be, and are proud to have been involved in. The reason the photos were leaked? Who knows.

The government of the United States does some fucked up shit. I will not deny that. But, do any of you remember that Navy Seal that was reported killed when he fell out of his Helo during the early days of Enduring Freedom? Well, I was in a position where we were briefed daily on the operations overseas, and when this happened, we were sent the spy drone video.Well, I can tell you, he didnt die from falling out of his Helo, and, from the video that I saw from one of the spy drones, I can tell you, he was BRUTALLY beaten and murdered by these prisoners friends and allies. Not to mention how they massacred everybody else who was coming to his aid. It was the only time in my life where I saw something on a video screen and felt the need to vomit. They were savagely slaughtered.

You cannot fight a war by being "better than them". Thats what gets you killed. Your job in the military is to defeat the enemy at all costs. PERIOD.

Fetch, could you please explain how we could have made thier trip more comfortable? More humane? or, better yet, why we should have not killed them on sight?

Lets not forget these guys worked with an organization that, obviously has prepared thier members for taking over aircrafts and crashing them.

If you ask me, they should have been put in between two stretchers, one beneath them, one above them, with them tied together. (Clamshelling is what we call it for Psych patients).

THey werent bloody or beaten, and didnt look like they were starving, so I have no problem with them being moved and transported in this fasion.

remember the Goblidygooker (sp?) that the WWF had as a suprprise for the Survivor Series way back when? remember the hype, the egg shaped....egg?

this is like that

the story got hype everywhere.

and then the result was a big let down.

my reaction? "so what." Other than the fact we got to see what happened, I see nothing wrong.

just like with the gooker. I wish I never saw it, or had to hear the hype, but eh, next item please.

Wrestling has been rhyming with ass. I miss shows and it makes me all shades of ambivalence. WWE is starting to suck again. The crops?Jeezum Spice! Someone stole my crops. What in the ham fat is going on. That's just poo-doo!That's just my 2.4856 Yen.

Yes, we are better than that. However, this is war and we are fighting an enemy that will stop at nothing to destroy the values we hold dear. Sometimes in this war we will have to do things that may not seem right but are necessary, like the missle attack in Yemen. Keeping the prisoners restrained is a way to prevent a possible uprising. When the prisoners led the uprising in Mazar-E-Sharif (?) they hid weapons under their turbons which we did not remove because they claimed it was a part of their religious garb.

There is nothing chivalric about war. It is horrifing, disgusting, and painful. These photos are reminders of how horrific it can become.

As a side note, if anyone lives in the Philadelphia area, there is a huge photo on display at the Philadelphia Art Museum, in the modern art section, of a group of Russian soldiers that were killed in Afganistan during the Russian occupation. It is a terrible reminder of the horrifing aspects of war and how much we as people are insulated from it.

These commercials are superfine because they pay for the production costs of putting CHRIS MOTHERFUCKING BENOIT on my GODDAMN TV SCREEN! I will GO GREYHOUND! I am thinking OUTSIDE THE BUN! – Dean Rasmussen 8/1/2002 Smackdown Workrate Report

Sorry Fletch- I can't be with you on this one.1) They were transported on a normal troop transport plane. As such, there is hardly much in the way of seats or cages.

2) OF COURSE they were blindfolded. The less a prisoner in that situation can see, especially a hostile enemy, the less he can do to cause trouble. I have NO problems with this.

3) They have to be bound... ankles and wrists. They are enemy combatants. It is not barbaric to do this.

4) As far as the harnesses go, I think it was pretty damned humane to do this. First off, if they were in seats, they would have been tied down to them. Same thing. Second- the guarding soldiers could both see, had full range of movement, were FAMILIAR with the plane and could grab on to something if there was a problem. The prisoners had none of those advantages, and were bound for their own protection. In addition, these are men with a propensity to commit suicide, and do so in a manner that would cause the most damage possible. If even one of them had broken free, the odds of them attempting to cause a crash was very high. I applaud the soldiers for doing everything they could to prevent that from happening.

They were not beat, the military did not have the resources to transport them any other way- I have to ask you Fletch, if we were expected to do better than this, what more could we have done? Honestly, in this case, I really think you are just looking for something to complain about...

On that note... Art Bell rules...

(edited by Pool-Boy on 11.11.02 1107)cranlsn was right by God-The Lions were the Packers' B$#CH!!!!!"Pool-Boy"