I'd like to see the debate continue without use of non-canon evidence - i.e. only the movies and now apparently the clone wars cg show are considered canon in the SW universe by George himself - so mentioning the trillions of Jedi killed in the Yuuzhan Vong War or the 'realistic' amount of Jedi around when we are led to believe (if I recall correctly) that there are only a few thousand left.

Bowspearer, it seems my posts have gone over your head. For example, you haven't understood what I've said at all in my first point."Furthermore, the Trade Federation weren't even aware of the fact that the ambassadors were Jedi until it was too late, so again how did this attract attention too early. As the Nemoidians openly admitted, they were sent to bring an end to the blockade." I make no such assertions in my post...???

And I'm no splitting hairs. It's a valid point. Why tell us Obi-Wan is a Jedi Knight when he is not? It should have read TWO JEDI or (my preference) TWO AMBASSADORS. You may think I'm splitting hairs because I guess it seems such a small detail in the overall scheme of things, but for me it establishes right from the get-go the many confusions this films presents.

And why the heck don't Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan USE THEIR LIGHTSABERS to cut themselves out of the dinning room? Why not USE THE FORCE to force open the doors? You know why they don't? BECAUSE IT IS NOT CONVENIENT FOR THE PLOT for them to do so.

That's my point in the running speed of the Jedi! Obi-Wan SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET INTO THE ROOM WITH QUI-GON AND DARTH MAUL IF ONLY HE USED HIS JEDI RUN! To fall short because he simply 'sprinted' is once again a PLOT CONVENIENCE to trick the audience into thinking, damn, close, but not close enough.

A lot of your arguments so far bring up things that have no relevance to any of the comments I have made. For example, the Bourne films in a previous post, twice now you have mentioned The Lord of the Rings Films (which stand up perfectly well as stand alone films). I've not bagged the LOTR films at all. Nor the Back to the Future Trilogy, The Godfather and many others because in almost every instance, these are wonderfully made films that can each be viewed without the need to watch the others.

Unfortunately telling me about martial arts and stuff (which is kinda like grasping at straws) is merey self serving as it justifies to yourself why YOU like and comprehend the obvious shortcomings with the plot points and conveniences with TPM and AOTC. And please, don't mention any of the stuff from books, comics, games etc. The FILMS are canon here. I'm not interested in stuff that I don't read. If it is not in the films, it didn't happen. To bring up this stuff in your argument only serves my point even further because a film needs to stand on its own. I'm not talking about Star Wars here, I'm talking about poor film making and terrible story telling.

And just before I sign off for good, let me give you one more nonsensical example:Palpatine's plan is to have Amidala sign the 'treaty'. This is a 14 year old girl (I'm not even going to address the ludicrous notion that an elected Queen/Head of State can be a CHILD) we're threatening here. Now, say if she signed the treaty? I mean, why wouldn't she? Her people are 'apparently' dying. Simply sign the treaty and get supplies to your people! Anyone with half a brain understands that a treaty (or contract) signed under duress is INVALID! Then once you have signed the treaty, take it to the Senate and then establish a commission. Instead we are forced to endure half a film where the two Senate Ambassadors make their way back to the Chancellor to inform him of the events unfolding and he simply DISMISSES them! WTF??? These are JEDI for crying out loud! Keepers of the peace and all that jazz.....and the Chancellor wants to establish a commission to hear the validity of the claims???

Maybe one more......How come when they return to Naboo only the droid control ship remains? No treaty hasn't been signed so the Trade Federation needs to maintain the blockade. How can they possibly stop supplies getting onto the planet with ONE Droid Control Ship??

And another one.....When leaving Naboo, the Queen's ship had it's deflector shield 'knocked out'. WTF??? The shields are up and the Deflector Shield generator is hit???

TheGoodDr wrote:Bowspearer, it seems my posts have gone over your head. For example, you haven't understood what I've said at all in my first point.

No I completely understood it- the issue here is that the main plot of TPM goes so far over your head it might as well be a space shuttle launch.

TheGoodDr wrote:"Furthermore, the Trade Federation weren't even aware of the fact that the ambassadors were Jedi until it was too late, so again how did this attract attention too early. As the Nemoidians openly admitted, they were sent to bring an end to the blockade." I make no such assertions in my post...???

Really then you don't remember this little gem?

TheGoodDr wrote:Surely two Jedi disappearing on a diplomatic mission would only attract attention to the Trade Federation.

You were saying?

TheGoodDr wrote:And I'm no splitting hairs. It's a valid point. Why tell us Obi-Wan is a Jedi Knight when he is not? It should have read TWO JEDI or (my preference) TWO AMBASSADORS. You may think I'm splitting hairs because I guess it seems such a small detail in the overall scheme of things, but for me it establishes right from the get-go the many confusions this films presents.

Anyone who finds themselves confused by this is just very easily confused. It seems like a miniscule detail because it really is.

TheGoodDr wrote:And why the heck don't Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan USE THEIR LIGHTSABERS to cut themselves out of the dinning room? Why not USE THE FORCE to force open the doors? You know why they don't? BECAUSE IT IS NOT CONVENIENT FOR THE PLOT for them to do so.

You're right- the fact that it the gas is supposed to have killed anyone within a minute and the fact that slowing down their metabolism would take less energy than cutting through a door would have absolutely nothing to do with their choice of actions there.

TheGoodDr wrote:That's my point in the running speed of the Jedi! Obi-Wan SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET INTO THE ROOM WITH QUI-GON AND DARTH MAUL IF ONLY HE USED HIS JEDI RUN! To fall short because he simply 'sprinted' is once again a PLOT CONVENIENCE to trick the audience into thinking, damn, close, but not close enough.

When Jedi become gods, you might actually have a point here.

TheGoodDr wrote:A lot of your arguments so far bring up things that have no relevance to any of the comments I have made. For example, the Bourne films in a previous post, twice now you have mentioned The Lord of the Rings Films (which stand up perfectly well as stand alone films). I've not bagged the LOTR films at all. Nor the Back to the Future Trilogy, The Godfather and many others because in almost every instance, these are wonderfully made films that can each be viewed without the need to watch the others.

To begin with I never brought up the Godfather or the BTTF trillogy. Secondly, it is impossibly to completely enjoy the LOTR movies as standalone movies- the first one lacks a conclusion, the second one lacks an openning and a conclusion and the third one lacks an openning. As for the Bourne films, the same complex polt exists here, so again entirely relevant. You'd see that if the overarching plot wasn't completely going over your head.

TheGoodDr wrote:Unfortunately telling me about martial arts and stuff (which is kinda like grasping at straws) is merey self serving as it justifies to yourself why YOU like and comprehend the obvious shortcomings with the plot points and conveniences with TPM and AOTC. And please, don't mention any of the stuff from books, comics, games etc. The FILMS are canon here. I'm not interested in stuff that I don't read. If it is not in the films, it didn't happen. To bring up this stuff in your argument only serves my point even further because a film needs to stand on its own. I'm not talking about Star Wars here, I'm talking about poor film making and terrible story telling.

If you don't want to talk about Star wars itself or martial arts then don't bring it up. Your whole point about the poison gas scene made you come across as completely ignorant when it came to Jedi. You claimed it was unrealistic and I brought up a real world example then extrapolated that back considering the Force. If you can't handle that then don't argue points on those grounds, it's that simple.

TheGoodDr wrote:And just before I sign off for good, let me give you one more nonsensical example:Palpatine's plan is to have Amidala sign the 'treaty'. This is a 14 year old girl (I'm not even going to address the ludicrous notion that an elected Queen/Head of State can be a CHILD) we're threatening here.

So ancient rulers such as Cleopatra are ludicrous to you?

TheGoodDr wrote:Now, say if she signed the treaty? I mean, why wouldn't she? Her people are 'apparently' dying. Simply sign the treaty and get supplies to your people! Anyone with half a brain understands that a treaty (or contract) signed under duress is INVALID!

You mean the same legal system where laws are passed by a senate that is ruled over by corrupt bureaucrats on the payroll of the Trade Federation and courts that are even more ineffective?

TheGoodDr wrote:Then once you have signed the treaty, take it to the Senate and then establish a commission. Instead we are forced to endure half a film where the two Senate Ambassadors make their way back to the Chancellor to inform him of the events unfolding and he simply DISMISSES them! WTF??? These are JEDI for crying out loud! Keepers of the peace and all that jazz.....and the Chancellor wants to establish a commission to hear the validity of the claims???

I take it you missed the part where he himself was clearly being extorted by bureaucrats on the payroll of the Trade Federation then? No offence, but you're making yourself look worse with time in terms of your ability to observe, comprehend and intuit.

TheGoodDr wrote:Maybe one more......How come when they return to Naboo only the droid control ship remains? No treaty hasn't been signed so the Trade Federation needs to maintain the blockade. How can they possibly stop supplies getting onto the planet with ONE Droid Control Ship??

You mean how the planet was considered secure and the senate was too bogged down to intervene and so the entire armada was no longer necessary there?

TheGoodDr wrote:And another one.....When leaving Naboo, the Queen's ship had it's deflector shield 'knocked out'. WTF??? The shields are up and the Deflector Shield generator is hit???

The same way you knock out any shield generator in the Star Wars universe.

Bowspearer, you really don't make sense in your arguments...when the Jedi become gods?? What type of response is this? They demonstrate their extreme running speed when running away from the Droidekas. Check it out....they clearly move faster than any human should. Why wouldn't Obi-Wan use this power instead of a normal every day 'sprint'? He misses the 'closing door' by only a couple of feet. Surely running at the same speed as he did when avoiding the Droidekas would have gotten him well and truly into the battle with Qui-Gon and Darth Maul. Oh hang on, that's right, it wasn't plot convenient for him to do so.

And the Nemoidians didn't kill the Jedi....that's MY POINT! If they did, then surely it would result in something being sensed by the council that something was up. Remember, Jedi can 'feel' the force?? Yoda can 'feel' when other Jedi are killed. And Palpatine WOULD know this too. So having the Nemoidians kill the Jedi (Kill them immediately he says) MAKES NO SENSE because the Jedi would be alerted!

And I'm not confused about the Jedi Knight thing in the opening crawl. You can't explain it other to say I'm splitting hairs. Why not accept that it just makes no sense to state we have two Jedi Knights in the opening crawl when there aren't? You have to remember, we're not all Star Wars nerds who live and breath this. Every day Joe Movie Goer should be able to view a film and not be disconnected from it. All I'm pointing out is an inconsistancy with the story that is presented BEFORE we see a single actor on screen.

Seriously bro, take a step back and read through what I have said and remove all emotion when replying. You rationalistion isn't very constructed and really makes no sense, especially when you start talking about space shuttle launches. Don't treat someone with contempt and ridicule because you're unable to convince them through logic that what they're saying is incorrect.

Also, you're not providing me with any rational argument, especially when you respond with questions. You never answer a question with a question. Eg. The blockade. A black market would be established pretty quickly and goods would be delivered for certain.

As for Chancellor Valorum being extorted....ummmm, this 'evidence' comes from Palpatine....a dubious source.....and it doesn't answer my Q at all as to why the Queen doesn't sign the treaty anyways to service her own people's needs. She even says she won't condone an course of action that will lead to war. Not signing the treaty is doing EXACTLY this! By not signing she commits her people to misery and antagonises the agressor.

Seriously bro, look at this argument from a rational and logical point of view. There's over 160minutes of carefully constructed criticism of these films thanks to the wonderful Mr Plinkett that are agreed to by people who really know the stuff of good movies (aintitcoolnews, thedigitalbits)

Last edited by TheGoodDr on Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:41 pm; edited 3 times in total

bowspearer wrote:the main plot of TPM goes so far over your head it might as well be a space shuttle launch.

but you're making yourself look worse with time in terms of your ability to observe, comprehend and intuit.

Sadly, with failure in hand.

Its comments like these this argument could do without, agian, this is a great argument, but personal comments like these need to be left out, this is the last time i'll pipe in on this, if it continues expect a pm from me mate....... it's just not how we "speak" to each other here

Would have gotten to this sooner, but RL has been pure hell over the past few weeks (still is, but there's been a minor reprieve over the past week).

TheGoodDr wrote:Bowspearer, you really don't make sense in your arguments...when the Jedi become gods?? What type of response is this? They demonstrate their extreme running speed when running away from the Droidekas. Check it out....they clearly move faster than any human should. Why wouldn't Obi-Wan use this power instead of a normal every day 'sprint'? He misses the 'closing door' by only a couple of feet. Surely running at the same speed as he did when avoiding the Droidekas would have gotten him well and truly into the battle with Qui-Gon and Darth Maul. Oh hang on, that's right, it wasn't plot convenient for him to do so.

This again, goes back to the point I made, when I asked when you thought the Jedi became gods. It’s been consistently established throughout the Star Wars universe that the energy needed to use the force isn’t some infinite fountain of power. Jedi get mentally fatigued and need to recharge that ability by taking the odd break here and there. Now after using the force to survive a lethal fall and then using it to jump to superhuman heights, it’s entirely realistic for Obi-Wan to run really fast unassisted by the force while giving himself a chance to recover briefly from mental fatigue- especially as what was abut to follow was going to be incredibly mentally fatiguing. There’s your “realistic” explanation.

That aside, the pacing still works fine in terms of dramatic tension (this is a movie, not a reenactment for a documentary) and it really nothing compared to other pacing issues such as in Terminator 2 for example.

TheGoodDr wrote:And the Nemoidians didn't kill the Jedi....that's MY POINT! If they did, then surely it would result in something being sensed by the council that something was up. Remember, Jedi can 'feel' the force?? Yoda can 'feel' when other Jedi are killed. And Palpatine WOULD know this too. So having the Nemoidians kill the Jedi (Kill them immediately he says) MAKES NO SENSE because the Jedi would be alerted!

And you wonder why I said that the plot went over your head. In the most basic terms possible, the Nemoidians were hopelessly outclassed patsies. You’re absolutely right about what would have happened had they actually had a remote chance of killing both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but the reality is that when Palpatine told then to kill them, he knew they’d fail miserably. That order did what it was meant to do, fail miserably and escalate the situation a step further towards what it was REALLY meant to accomplish.

TheGoodDr wrote:And I'm not confused about the Jedi Knight thing in the opening crawl. You can't explain it other to say I'm splitting hairs. Why not accept that it just makes no sense to state we have two Jedi Knights in the opening crawl when there aren't? You have to remember, we're not all Star Wars nerds who live and breath this.

Which is exactly why it makes more sense to say “2 Jedi Knights” in the opening crawl rather than “a Jedi Knight and his Apprentice”, “a Jedi Knight and his Initiate” or “a Jedi Knight and his Padawan”. You’re also assuming that that opening crawl didn’t have to fit into a certain timing and thus word limit. You say that the film needs to be written for the man on the street, yet your nit picking here completely contradicts that.

TheGoodDr wrote:Every day Joe Movie Goer should be able to view a film and not be disconnected from it. All I'm pointing out is an inconsistancy with the story that is presented BEFORE we see a single actor on screen.

It’s not even about having a deep knowledge of the Star Wars universe; it’s about having intelligence and recognizing that what you’re immediately seeing on screen is mostly a smokescreen with the occaisional bit of truth showing through. The reality is, and the standard trend with Hollywood movies proves it; that what “Every day Joe Movie Goer” needs, is to grow a brain.

Sweetest alluded to the point when she said:

TheSweetestThing wrote:Welcome to Hollywood. Don't you know that explosions, big guns and violence make everything better?

These days most movies don’t have deep stories, but rather talk down to people (although I wonder about that these days with the level of intelligence of so many people out there) and entirely rely on explosions and special effects these days and people lap them up (the utter crap that is the Transformers Live Action Movies anyone) while something that operates on a much deeper level gets described as “making no sense”. It’s sadly proof that the average person out there is actually becoming less intelligent these days.

TheGoodDr wrote:Seriously bro, take a step back and read through what I have said and remove all emotion when replying. You rationalistion isn't very constructed and really makes no sense, especially when you start talking about space shuttle launches. Don't treat someone with contempt and ridicule because you're unable to convince them through logic that what they're saying is incorrect.

No my rationalization is fine; you just keep trying to use a far too simplistic analysis of the film like it’s a Michael Bay movie, when you have to dig much deeper, which is why your analysis is wildly off the mark. You need to recognize that sometimes in films, what the director wants you to look at is what’s underlying the scene as it plays out and not the scene itself. Lucas throws us this in a subtle set of three lines but clearly so many people completely missed it including you:

Obi-Wan: I have a bad feeling about this. Qui-Gon Jinn: I don't sense anything. Obi-Wan: It's not about the mission, Master. It's something... elsewhere. Elusive.

Translation: Stop taking this movie on face value- what you need to look at is what’s going on behind the scenes. Sadly, most people out there seemed to have been incapable of comprehending this.

The problem isn’t a lack of logic, but rather a seeming inability of other people to think more deeply when looking at this film. Also it helps to recognize similies and metaphor when they’re used.

Am I slightly emotional in my response? Sure, but it’s not because of this film specifically - the current trend of both moviegoers and movies really grates with me. Plot depth and complexity for the most part have been completely thrown out the window in favour of CGI and explosions. It’s gotten so bad that when people get handed something where the plot is actually really operating as an undercurrent; they’ve been so dumbed down by the current trend that they’re incapable of grasping it.

It’s like walking up to Elbert Einstein and telling him that his theories on Quantum mechanics were flawed because they go over a person’s head- it’s truly ridiculous

TheGoodDr wrote:Also, you're not providing me with any rational argument, especially when you respond with questions. You never answer a question with a question. Eg. The blockade. A black market would be established pretty quickly and goods would be delivered for certain.

On the contrary, I am, but you’re sadly completely missing the point. If it was a serious blockade, that wouldn’t happen. Everything being run into the planet would have been spotted and either shot down or taken care of on the surface. But it wasn’t a serious blockade; it was a false flag operation designed to get Palpatine the Supreme Chancellory.

You mean the same Palpatine who had a Jedi Master order a clone army under the Jedi Council’s nose, had the archives altered without anyone knowing (and something which is supposed to be next to impossible to pull off), exists as a Sith right under the noses of the Jedi, while running the entire Separatist movement right under the nose of the Republic while being the head of the Republic.

Do you really think that bribing a few bureaucrats and possibly having them incriminate Chancellor Valorum while also starting up a few rumours about the Chancellor, is really going to be that much of a stretch for him?

TheGoodDr wrote:and it doesn't answer my Q at all as to why the Queen doesn't sign the treaty anyways to service her own people's needs. She even says she won't condone an course of action that will lead to war. Not signing the treaty is doing EXACTLY this! By not signing she commits her people to misery and antagonises the aggressor.

Ok two things here- to begin with, her Decoy often has to sound like she’s talking the talk, and as it was soon established in the film, that WAS her bodyguard saying that. Secondly, she might have been hoping for the Senate to intervene, which was what Palpatine wanted. When that didn’t happen, she had the same choice as what any leader of an oppressed nation does and your same argument could be used to ask why the Vietnamese opposed the French, or the Americans opposed the British, or even the French of the Norwegians opposed, the Nazis- or even to quote a very current examples, the Thais opposing the current military coup. There’s more than one kind of suffering a race can endure during an occupation.

TheGoodDr wrote:Seriously bro, look at this argument from a rational and logical point of view. There's over 160minutes of carefully constructed criticism of these films thanks to the wonderful Mr Plinkett that are agreed to by people who really know the stuff of good movies (aintitcoolnews, thedigitalbits)

So he’s established - big deal. The reality is that he fails miserably- but then using a simpleton’s analysis on anything but a Michael Bay movie will usually result in that. Clearly he has no idea what a “false flag operation” is (which is essentially the crux of the entire plot) and so it’s no wonder that his review shows that the entire plot went so far over his head that it might as well have been a space shuttle launch (once again, it’s a metaphor).

TheSweetestThing wrote:I was always under the impression that lightsaber blades carried no weight at all, and the skill involved with spinning them around and junk was all to do with force power.

It's not the blades but rather the hilts that have the weight, and the blades contain so much energy that ther's practically an explosion when 2 lightsaber blades clash and because of that, the blades handle as if they're big and heavy. The former has been established several times in novels; the later by Lucas himself.

TheSweetestThing wrote:I was always under the impression that lightsaber blades carried no weight at all, and the skill involved with spinning them around and junk was all to do with force power.

It's not the blades but rather the hilts that have the weight, and the blades contain so much energy that ther's practically an explosion when 2 lightsaber blades clash and because of that, the blades handle as if they're big and heavy. The former has been established several times in novels; the later by Lucas himself.

This argument doesn't wash for me...if something has to be explained outside of the film, then the filmscript hasn't done the work. (Although no-one in the films talks about why only Jedis wield lightsabres so it's a moot point).

TheSweetestThing wrote:I was always under the impression that lightsaber blades carried no weight at all, and the skill involved with spinning them around and junk was all to do with force power.

It's not the blades but rather the hilts that have the weight, and the blades contain so much energy that ther's practically an explosion when 2 lightsaber blades clash and because of that, the blades handle as if they're big and heavy. The former has been established several times in novels; the later by Lucas himself.

This argument doesn't wash for me...if something has to be explained outside of the film, then the filmscript hasn't done the work. (Although no-one in the films talks about why only Jedis wield lightsabres so it's a moot point).

See yours doesn't wash for me either, but then this just gets back to my point of trailer trash marketted movies. Spoonfeeding everyone everything (with what very little actual plot there is) is the base tenant of a Michael Bay movie, and last I checked, Bay wasn't making anything worthy of an oscar beyond the realms of special effects, and so it shouldn't be the basic tennant of a good quality movie. Things don't have to be explained in a movie, just presented consistently, and considering the nature of the relevant characters in the OT compared to the PT, it arguably has been done with lightsabers.

The sign of a good movie, particularly a good scifi series, is that it should prompt questions. You're not telling the entire story of that reality, just a ceretain period within it.

To give you an example, supposing that something happening in our reality was a movie for a race of beings who did not breathe, would you expect someone to explain how breathing works for the sake of exposition? How realistic would that be.

If people want simpleton based movies that spoonfeed and don't lead to questions about the universes those movies take place in, that's their choice, but no good movie with a quality plot will ever fit that description, and people shouldn't expect movies with quality stories to fit into that category.

Not sure if you picked up that I said it was a moot point because the issue isn't discussed in the films and isn't an integral plot point anyway.

However, as far as

no good movie with a quality plot

not wanting to provoke questions into the universe of the world, that's a bunkum argument. The history of enacted drama (from oral histories to plays and then to film) is one of producing discreet stories. Even if we go back, say, 60 years in film (not a long time in this history) and look at, for example, The Third Man. The film is set in post WWII Berlin. at the beginning of the film we receive all of the information required to understand the entirety of the text. Sure, one might be curious as to the historical context and research it afterwards. And sure, some issues of the characters stories are deliberately left what would now be termed "open-ended" (or "conflicted" in a historical context) but nothing is placed in the film or left out of it that would change the understanding of the story itself, a twisting film noir with more nuances than 99% of Hollywood films today.

Where the argument that a good story prompts questions about the world the story is placed falls down comes in our modern context where the story can be supplemented through highly marketed additional media, be it book adaptations/series etc.

What we cannot and should not expect of any text is that elements that are crucial to the plot, or change the story in and of itself, are explained in a completely different text. Fundamentally, that breaks every rule of writing.

The mile wide hole in your argument there, especially in light of your example is though that that story takes place on our world in a fairly recent time, so the "assumed knowledge" of the universe in that film is the assumed knoweldge of us.

Films in fantasy universes though are a different story. Their assumed knowledge isn't ours and because of it is assumed knowledge that you're talking about here, you're not likely to hear characters going on about the issue of Jedi and their weilding of lighsabers any more than you are hearing an everyday person describing how a bed works or why people need sleep that takes place in our world and our reality.

There's a difference between plot setup and assumed knowledge of the universe, which you don't seem to have quite grasped here.

Nope, I grasp the issue quite well. If you create a fictitious universe in a text, you set up the rules so that it can be understood in that text. It doesn't matter if it's a fantasy universe, sci-fi, noir, romantic drama.

And, again, the issues of only Jedis wielding lightsabres in the films is never a plot point, so it's moot. The issue of super-speed running Jedis being inconsistent, however, is not explained in Phantom Menace at all. Had there been just one scene where Obi-Wan is shown to be upset over the death of Qui-Gon, confessing to Yoda "I just didn't have enough power to Force-run and save him in time" the rules of the universe are explained, and a plot hole is filled (and yes, I just did it in a clumsy fashion).

These are simple rules of dramaturgy, stuff that I've learnt in a lifetime of working in the creative industry.

simmo wrote:Nope, I grasp the issue quite well. If you create a fictitious universe in a text, you set up the rules so that it can be understood in that text. It doesn't matter if it's a fantasy universe, sci-fi, noir, romantic drama.

And, again, the issues of only Jedis wielding lightsabres in the films is never a plot point, so it's moot. The issue of super-speed running Jedis being inconsistent, however, is not explained in Phantom Menace at all. Had there been just one scene where Obi-Wan is shown to be upset over the death of Qui-Gon, confessing to Yoda "I just didn't have enough power to Force-run and save him in time" the rules of the universe are explained, and a plot hole is filled (and yes, I just did it in a clumsy fashion).

These are simple rules of dramaturgy, stuff that I've learnt in a lifetime of working in the creative industry.

Just one problem there- Jedi are supposed to be above such emotional displays and even hanging onto such emotions because it's a sure fire path to the dark side, so such an utterance couldn't have happened as it's against the rules of the Jedi Order which had been gone into by Yoda earlier in the film. As for a show of emotion, you had it when Qui-Gon was struck down so it's clear e was struck down by grief and a part of that would have been bound to be regret over what had happened. You could also argue that Obi-Wan's defiance was in training Anakin, even though he thought it was a bad idea, was driven by guilt filled obligation. The other problem you have is time. As it was, a huge slice of the Pod Race for example had to be cut out of the movie due to time limits so there was no way of cramming any more story into what was there, making an overt display an issue of time.

Mahzian wrote:wow this thread is more epic than the star wars saga itself!

my opinion: I like the prequels but nowhere near as much as the OT, I think the prequels fell flat because of a few reasons:

- George spent too much time on them- George spent too much money on them- Too many brown nosers at Lucasfilm not willing to shoot George's ideas down

While possibly there wasn't as much collaboration and criticism of Lucas' work as there should have been; your points about time and money are a bit on the ludicrous side when compared wiht the OT. When you look at the budgets of the OT for the time and the timeframes for both the PT and the OT in terms of script writing durations, it pretty much works out level, with the OT arguably taking even longer in the time stakes, when you look at when Lucas first started writing TPM compared to when he first started writing ANH.

Back to my point about lightsabers, yeah I get the clashing of them together, thats a fairly obvious point. But with the swinging them around when you're not smacking them against each other...thats a different kettle of fish.

Anyway, this argument is boring and I'm over reading it (only realised I'd been replied to when I saw simmo's reply), I don't really know why its still going. Nobody's opinion is being changed and everyone is being stubborn. Dull as hell.

I have always had this question about Star Wars but have never had it answered. In Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo has his hands bound behind his back before he goes into carbonite and then in Return Of The Jedi when Leia/C-3PO rescue him from Jabba's palace his hands are next to his face as if pressing against the carbonite whilst still inside it. How does that happen?... I'm sure there is some convienient Star Wars answer as there is with everything Star Wars. I like Star Wars... don't get me wrong. I like anything Sci-Fi. They are just genre movies though. Yes there are underlying metaphors and sub-texts but the 3 prequel movies were made for 1 sole reason...um...er...to take the hard earned cash that is in your hot little pocket and purchase that lovely Chewbacca lunchbox or that Anakin Skywalker inflatable punching bag.It's great (and rare) when a popcorn movie manages the near impossible and melds a great story with awesome effects/acting/design/sound. Remember the 1st time you saw the original Matrix, leaving the cinema with your mind blown as to where Sci-Fi could go cinematically from there (1999). Not a big Matrix fan but I don't think I have seen a popcorn movie since where the story (for the time) was so drastically original to be made into a $90 million budget movie.I don't know where I am going with this...Oh yeah... that's right. F***ING Star Wars!!!!After reading an argument about Star Wars I thought I would change the subject by finishing with...Chronicles Of Riddick... now there's a sci-fi movie for ya'll!