Well suffice it to say that not only are you looking bad from the point of view of any theists that may be lurking, you are looking bad in the eyes of some of your fellow atheists.

It would be nice if they were more than silently supportive, but I can understand why they would choose not to say anything publicly.

If you can't see that Omen has been doing wrong then you must be completely blind.

What have I done, except ask you to be accountable for your own claims?

What is wrong with asking you to be accountable for your own claims?

Why are you incapable of finding anything I'm actually doing, that you could describe as wrong?

« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:32:52 PM by Omen »

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Of course, I will ask you to support your claim, if that's not too threatening.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true. I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

jst, I've called you an idiot. I have been explict in detailing the reasons I've called you an idiot. Right here:

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You are indeed an idiot if you think you can get away with such nonsense without being called on your claims. There is a point where your own actions have demonstrated a willful inablity to take responsiblity for what you have claimed and think that no one will notice. This shows a certain lack of intelligence aka being an idiot. I do try to avoid making a personal observation, but when the facts support it, I will. Sometimes there is no good reason to be polite especially when the theist shows no interest in being honest.

You have continued to display yourself as such so far. So, I have no problem still considering you an idiot. I am indeed ridiculing the baseless beliefs you profess *and* your actions.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Why are you incapable of finding anything I'm actually doing, that you could describe as wrong?

*raises hand*I know! It's because jst has nothing to support his ignorant claims and thinks that dragging things out like this will keep him from getting moderated.

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"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne

You just don't get it...we're not ridiculing you--we're ridiculing your christian beliefs

Calling me an idiot over and over and over and over, or saying that I'm a sicko that should have child protective services called on me is not ridiculing my beliefs.

Yes it is ! You must try to see that we're not calling you an idiot aside from your beliefs , but because of your beliefs. There's a big difference there. It is you that holds your beliefs and since those beliefs have been clearly shown to be idiotic and since we are what we believe, then there is no other way to describe you with regards to your position and beliefs.

You yourself, would think an adult person would be of low intelligence to believe that Santa truly exists as described. You would think them being idiotic for not seeing that the whole story is simply a legend built around Saint Nicholas of Myra and that has, for various reasons, been manipulated into the current version of Santa that it is.

Therefore it is indeed idiotic to believe that, although a historical jesus may have existed 2000 yrs. ago in palestine and who started a new religion, the rest of the account of him is also true and not merely a fictional legend built after the fact and over time. Just like Santa has been.

However there is something more powerful that refutes the jesus legend......

You think there is strong evidence for the truth of the jesus story in the bible, but it is extremely weak and most certainly in the broad, contemporary, and corroborative sense. Outside of the bias of the bible which is written only by the people who claim it is true, the only remaining possible evidence for the truth of the jesus story is his very own people, the Jews themselves and their descendants ! Yet they say no.. It is not true ! And have stood by this for 2000 yrs......What further evidence do we need that the story--which is full of absurdities and impossibilities, is a myth ? None.

You want us to take the word of a handful of ancient Jewish fishermen who convert to a new religion and spread it through heresay, over the word of the entire Jewish race who were present at the time and yet deny the truth of the story. You want us to take what would be a major, and the very best, source of contemporary and corroborative evidence from that time--the Jews-- and disregard them and their denial in favour of an extremely small group of factional and disgruntled Jews and their hypnotic leader ?? Well, that's not going to happen.

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Yeah yeah yeah, I was sarcastic and called you Einstein...big fucking whoopi..call me whatever you want......oh wait !! you just did in that above scripture !

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Saying it once is one thing. Saying it over and over and over and over and over and over is another. Yes I know "sticks and stone" but after a while it gets tiresome. I realize that other people's words do not define me and in fact only define the one speaking but like I said, after a while it becomes ridiculous.

You guys don't really see the picture. My problem is not with all of you. It is with ONE of you that is allowed to do anything he wishes with impunity and the moderator that allows him to do so and also any that support or reinforce this behavior.

But again, you must see that you're making your claims over and over and over and over again and so we're only responding to that by calling you what you are by default in holding those idiotic beliefs. Think Saint Nicholas and Santa.

You're right, other peoples words do not define you...you define yourself with your own words and in this case we're simply calling you accordingly to how you have defined yourself through your confession of the beliefs that you have.

Not so, we see the picture that you have painted of yourself quite clearly. You do in fact have a problem with us all because you see us all as wrong and so refuse to see or accept the logical reasoning that has been presented to you. That's a problem that you have created with us, because our reasonable responses to your specific claims are a sound and logical reaction to those claims.

We also see the jesus picture, and the testament that describes him, clearly for what it is....A story of historical fiction--which is rejected by his own race as true--which is rooted in the god-idea and built up over the centuries into a powerful tool to be used for various reasons to serve human purposes.

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"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

I actually know quite a few very intelligent theists; why they remain theists, I do not know, aside from I suppose they feel that they get some comfort from it of some sort. As an example, I know several geologists who are devout Christians. You would definitely think a geologist would know better. Some believe in an "old earth" interpretation of Genesis, but all share a common belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible to some degree.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

I actually know quite a few very intelligent theists; why they remain theists, I do not know, aside from I suppose they feel that they get some comfort from it of some sort. As an example, I know several geologists who are devout Christians. You would definitely think a geologist would know better. Some believe in an "old earth" interpretation of Genesis, but all share a common belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible to some degree.

Yes. This is my point. The only reason you have for saying my beliefs are idiotic is because you don't agree with them. It's my opinion that you're disbelief in God is idiotic. But that doesn't mean I have to repeat it over and over. Nor does that mean I have to say it in the first place. Nothing constructive is going to come from it. But something destructive can come from it.

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I actually know quite a few very intelligent theists; why they remain theists, I do not know, aside from I suppose they feel that they get some comfort from it of some sort. As an example, I know several geologists who are devout Christians. You would definitely think a geologist would know better. Some believe in an "old earth" interpretation of Genesis, but all share a common belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible to some degree.

Yes. This is my point. The only reason you have for saying my beliefs are idiotic is because you don't agree with them. It's my opinion that you're disbelief in God is idiotic. But that doesn't mean I have to repeat it over and over. Nor does that mean I have to say it in the first place. Nothing constructive is going to come from it. But something destructive can come from it.

Would a Hindu,Muslim,Buhddist say the same thing about your beliefs,,,would you also say the same about theirs? Would you both call each other Idiots....wait you already do!

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I actually know quite a few very intelligent theists; why they remain theists, I do not know, aside from I suppose they feel that they get some comfort from it of some sort. As an example, I know several geologists who are devout Christians. You would definitely think a geologist would know better. Some believe in an "old earth" interpretation of Genesis, but all share a common belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible to some degree.

Yes. This is my point. The only reason you have for saying my beliefs are idiotic is because you don't agree with them. It's my opinion that you're disbelief in God is idiotic. But that doesn't mean I have to repeat it over and over. Nor does that mean I have to say it in the first place. Nothing constructive is going to come from it. But something destructive can come from it.

Not so.

Your beliefs--the very same ones that I owned for 40 yrs.--are called idiotic because they are idiotic. They're completely unnecessary for a clear thinking and mentally stable person who fully understands their existence and the current facts of reality around them.

You cannot use the argument from authority as you are in this case, as it is a fallacy.

It can only be attempted as a logical argument if it were to go by this kind of standard:

The geological record shows god existsGeologists are experts in their fieldAll geologists hold that the record is correctTherefore god exists

However, I'm sure that you see where this fails on your part. The fact that a handful--not all-- of geologists are christians is irrelevant to the general facts and reality of things, and it verifies nothing except personal delusion. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of geologists, and the vast majority in all branches of science, reject the god idea as a valid hypothesis. ....If there are any scientists at all that hold the same beliefs that you do, then they too are simply being idiotic in their behaviour and thinking for doing so. They're acting in an illogical way and the only reason they can have for doing such a thing is for self-interest and emotional gratification. Just like you.

The scientists who you speak of may be intelligent and competent in their field, but are being surprisingly immature and intellectually weak with regards to the reason for their existence.

The god hypothesis is a philosophical failure and an empirical failure and this is why the majority of scientists stand in the position of nonbelief that they do.

If your desire JST is for something constructive...then your not going to find it in the god-idea.........You cannot construct something into being tangible such as the god-idea, without the proper materials. The fact is that there are no current legitimate materials to construct the god-idea and prove its truth. The bible's only use, is to be a construction manual that enables the mind to build a personal god, but that does so with a plethora of bizarre parts to work with. .

The only use the bible has been, is to be an excellent source for humans to build the kind of god that they like in their minds. A god who is designed by them to serve their own personal needs, to ease their troubled lives, and to comfort them in their ignorance and lack of understanding of the reality that they exist in.

Thus we have 30,000+ religions, and billions of different flavours of gods.

This is basic stuff Jst........You're not arguing with us--not at all !! You're fighting a losing battle with common sense and logical reasoning that stand on their own and need no help from us.

You'd be foolhearty to think that we're trying to "win". Logic has already won the battle you're in, and we're simply trying to get you to see that.

Why won't you ?

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"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Yes. This is my point. The only reason you have for saying my beliefs are idiotic is because you don't agree with them. It's my opinion that you're disbelief in God is idiotic. But that doesn't mean I have to repeat it over and over. Nor does that mean I have to say it in the first place. Nothing constructive is going to come from it. But something destructive can come from it.

No, jst, that is not the only reason we have for saying your beliefs are idiotic. You have no evidence for them. At all. None. Your claims are the same as those people who you claim are wrong, so there is no reason to think your claims are any more right.

If you can show evidence that your god exists and that no others do, you may have a point that my disbelief in all gods and the supernatural is idiotic. Can you provide that evidence? If not, then you have no reason to make the claim that disbelief in such things, like the disbelief in Santa Claus is idiotic.

Religion is destructive since it is built on nothing but baseless claims, promises that fail and ignorance that makes people think that other people are less than human.

An idiot *is* a fool. fool: person lacking in judgment or prudence; a harmlessly deranged person or one lacking in common powers of understanding Idiot: 1.a person affected with extreme mental retardation;a foolish or stupid person (definitions thanks to merriam-webster.com)

And considering that JC said that people who call others fools are rather bad (Matthew 5) I find your claim about JC to be ill-informed.

Grimm's OP was asking you to look at your reliion from the outside, jst.

Personally, I want you to take what Loftis calls the "outsider test of faith." I want you to look at Islam and Mormonism, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Bhuddism - whatever you care to choose, really, and seriously define what makes these things impossible or ridiculous to you. Then, if you can, I'd love to see you take a step back from your own beliefs and subject them to the same scrutiny. Pretend you are someone who has never heard of the Bible, who lives a comfortable, Western, middle class existence without having even imagined the Christian god. Would your faith make sense to you?

And you seem unable or unwilling to do that. You think your religion is somehow different and special, that your arguments are unique and foolproof. But you like all theists have no evidence to show this, or that one religion is some how more valid than the next. We keep waiting for the evidence that that all of you promise but we never see it. It gets quite frustrating and makes theists look like liars since they cannot fulfill their claims. NO one likes to be lied to so people get irritated, and find that there is no reason to not call a spade a spade.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Of course, I will ask you to support your claim, if that's not too threatening.

For the record, I don't believe Omen has done anything wrong , I think the evidence of the posts show he/she (?) has been repeatedly - generally directly but politely - been asking for evidence of jst's claims. Omen has not mistreated jst.Here in the USA, it's usually us atheists who are substantially mistreated by believers, not the other way around.I see jst still not taken that 'polite' invite to go post xian nonsense on another board yet? oh, the joys that other board is missing out on...

His last post very early on in #8 and he hasn't yet responded back to Jst' post #13.

Grimm where are you

Hiding.

Honestly, though, I don't have much to say. I was hoping to talk about the OTF and, tangentially, our propensity (as a community) to overwhelm and abuse theists that stop in, and from post 13 until I had opportunity to say something, either the community covered what I was hoping to say or both proved and fought against my thesis about our treatment of others.

I haven't had much to contribute.

I do think that JST has just dismissed the OTF without consideration of what it really means, much as I think statements like:

"It is true, though. If we were Christians, we wouldn't be calling him an idiot, unless we were fucking Catholics."

.. just to pick on one, aren't exactly constructive in any sense, much as I think JST's statement:

"I can't picture Ghandi, Jesus, or Buddha calling someone an idiot. Maybe a fool, but not an idiot."

is just as worthless.

JST, the ultimate point of the OTF is to say one thing as simply as possible: Your faith is unlikely to be foundational or well-examined. You were raised Christian (or exposed to it constantly from an early age), you were told Christianity was right, you were 'preprogrammed' to reject competing points of view. The unsavory truth I hoped to reach was simply that this is true of everyone else who does not believe as you do as well.

It's a huge and important concept, one that I think cuts through a lot of nonsense in the ongoing debate around faith. A devout hindu has precisely the same reasons to believe and why they believe as you do. Their emotion, their inner voice, their sense of rightness in their faith? No different at all from your own, in no way whatsoever. You can no more offer them an argument that will prove them 'wrong' than we can offer one to you.

How is that even remotely possible? Why does that hindu think your faith is risible? If your faith is true and correct, shouldn't it offer something that exists outside of our predisoposition (here in the States, anyway) to accept Christianity is true on bias?

As for the community? We athiests are good people, but I think we lose sight of the idea behind forums like these. Perhaps it is that I am off base in what this forum intends to be, I don't know. However, if what is wanted is open and honest communication of ideas? You don't get that with intentionally inflammatory language - that only scores you points with the locals, not the visitors.

Discourse relies on civility, written discourse on hypercivility. That doesn't mean compromising your position, but it does mean choosing words and thoughts that keep your discussion engaged.

I'm not here to 'win' debates. I want to communicate difficult concepts as clearly as posible and with an eye to bringing understanding to people that cannot concieve of a lack of faith - guys like JST. Whether I convince him or not of the 'rightness' of my position is immaterial. Instead, for him specifically, I want to both answer his questions and show him why I have reached the conclusions I have. If I do so well and succinctly, with a certain amount of grace, then I also lay out a philosophy that someone looking on can understand, who, like I was once, can begin to see that letting go of faith isn't necessarially a bad thing.

I doubt my argument - or any of our arguments - will 'convert' JST, but they're being read by dozens of people who never say a word. When we call JST an 'idiot', we're calling them stupid as well. You don't show the validity of your position by alienating everyone who questions it.

I took (and take) a great deal of inspiration from Hermes. I miss him, in fact - he was one of the fellows that showed me atheism wasn't the end of everything. He reminds me of QualiaSoup's "professor", in fact, and was, perhaps, mine.

Personally, I wish I caught everyone as they arrived, and could do what Hermes once did - his virtual welcome basket, his off-camera conversations, and his easy humor? They made a difference in my own casting about after losing my own faith. The rage and loaded conversation does nothing, by comparison.

His last post very early on in #8 and he hasn't yet responded back to Jst' post #13.

Grimm where are you

Hiding.

As for the community? We athiests are good people, but I think we lose sight of the idea behind forums like these. Perhaps it is that I am off base in what this forum intends to be, I don't know. However, if what is wanted is open and honest communication of ideas? You don't get that with intentionally inflammatory language - that only scores you points with the locals, not the visitors.

Discourse relies on civility, written discourse on hypercivility. That doesn't mean compromising your position, but it does mean choosing words and thoughts that keep your discussion engaged.

I'm not here to 'win' debates. I want to communicate difficult concepts as clearly as posible and with an eye to bringing understanding to people that cannot concieve of a lack of faith - guys like JST. Whether I convince him or not of the 'rightness' of my position is immaterial. Instead, for him specifically, I want to both answer his questions and show him why I have reached the conclusions I have. If I do so well and succinctly, with a certain amount of grace, then I also lay out a philosophy that someone looking on can understand, who, like I was once, can begin to see that letting go of faith isn't necessarially a bad thing.

I doubt my argument - or any of our arguments - will 'convert' JST, but they're being read by dozens of people who never say a word. When we call JST an 'idiot', we're calling them stupid as well. You don't show the validity of your position by alienating everyone who questions it.

... so. I suppose I had more to say than I thought. Hmm.

Which is why I was hoping you'd come back.

I will be the first to admit that I am at times a tad too strident. I'd also admit that it's hard for me to feel bad about that though. I feel that religion is dangerous and poisonous and perhaps that's why I find it very difficult to feel sorry for my strong responses.

I guess it's unfortunate in a way that we sit in our rooms and cubicles, alone with our thoughts, and put them to a keyboard, but can't sit face to face with all the theists that we speak with. I'm sure the conversations would be different in ways and perhaps more relaxed. I'd also be surprised however if the outcome of the conversations would be any different than they are here. I do enjoy the face to face conversations much better with the theists that I have, and will admit that I'm not as "hot to trot" as I am in this environment, so for me personally I'm guessing that the lack of face to face contact with theists is an irritant for me in some kind of way that I then take out on the other individual ? I don't know

I can also agree with your thoughts on "collateral damage" .....If there was one reason that I would be inclined to work at my approach to theists, that would be the one. Although I have a strong belief that religions and their doctrines should be strongly ridiculed at all times and no matter who is looking or hearing, I do also think that driving away onlookers by the use of foul language and name calling does a disservice to the atheist position and to the objectives of sites such as this. I'm guilty of this however at times and although I find it somewhat difficult not to, I am trying to strictly limit outbursts of cursing and name calling. It's tough though, and especially after having been a theist for 40 years....however, I am trying at the same time to use that as an excuse to change my habits, in that I was just as stubborn as any theist for those 40 years as well and wouldn't listen, and being called names an being cursed at did nothing to change that.

Thanks for coming back with some more thoughts.

Cheers mate.

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"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.