I'm an OK. Optimizer. I have written 3 handbooks. 1 on TWF for fighters.
1 on TWF for Rangers
And 1 on Hexcrafters.

Those 3 were made basically because as a Player, I tend to stick to what I like.
I have experience playing Casters and do enjoy the POWER they give you both in terms of utility/ability to bypass problems and the raw Save or Die power of high level spells.

I don't play full casters often.
This is merely because I love the mental visual of Saying/imagining stuff like:
"Marcus ducked his enemies first strike and batted away the low coming scimitar with his cestus, then he bought his main hand over and down in a brutal slash that almost completely severed the Orc's arm at the shoulder. Spurting lifeblood, the creature fell, as the ranger looked up and pointed his blade at the next charging foe, You're next..."

Ethaniel takes a step towards Marcus, gesturing furiously, but when he lays a trembling hand on the ranger's side, healing energy comes forth from it.

Ethaniel spends a move action to coil his whip and place it on his belt. He then takes a 5-Foot Step to DM46 and expends Remove Fear to cast Cure Light Wounds on Marcus.

Cure Light Wounds - 1d8+1

I know that Tippy and Tam need the heal just as much, if not more, but I think Marcus is our best chance at surviving the encounter at this point, as his favored enemy bonus is making a big difference.

Man, I love that.

THAT'S WHY I OPTIMIZE my warriors for damage.
Then I think of why I also love Inquisitors, Magai and Bards so much.
Cause they generally have a means of Kicking A$$ like a Fighter (albeit not as often) but also have their own means to buy pass so many problems that stop melees in their tracks.
Will saves, difficult terrain, flight. They can generally do this on their own without help. What's more I know I can spent EVERY FEAT on melee and still go to spells/Magical protection to do stuff that has nothing to do with my one OPTIMISED trick.

I don't believe in building a one trick pony melee char.
Cause you suck if you can't do your thing.
Forget DPR threads. PRACTICAL OPTIMIZATION says you need a 2nd or third string to your bow.

Look at My CaGM barbarian in Trinam's guide. NOT a one trick pony.
Massive Saves.
Massive DPR
Can sunder spells
Can Interrupt enemy attacks with Dazing Assault
Or
A Dwarf Inquisitor/Magus Hexcrafter with Steel Soul/Glory of Old
Massive saves
Self/Party DPR buffs
Tons of Magical Options
Lots of Skills.
Hexcrafter does awesome save or Dies
Or
Switch hitter rangers
Or Paladins...

Thing is I love having 'I kill it'being my main trick.
But it's a lot HARDER (though not Impossible to have) to make a Really kick ass versatile fighter.
I still make fighters, I love.fighters.

Feats. Oh hey, you're better with that weapon! Oh hey, you don't such as much with armor now! Feats. Yay, you don't run like a girl anymore (though you're still about as subjugative as a clown)! Feats. Now you're good with another weapon, and your previous weapon is less suck! Your skill with armor is even less crappy than it was before! Feats.

Did I mention feats?

Yeah, it's that boring and mundane. Sure, the features are nice (I would enjoy running full speed in Full Plate while the Paladin or some other clown slugs behind), but it's not exactly fun or gamebreaking.

Barbarians somehow get magical (supernatural/spell-like) abilities through their stuff, and get some pretty crazy things. All Fighters get is what I mentioned above: Mundane, regular stuff that the other clowns should also get, but don't for the purposes of game balance.

Honestly; you're not missing much, other than free proficiencies and a Combat Feat. The rest isn't exactly worthwhile, since the rest is oh so powerful.

The thing is Fighters dont have to be dumb or one trick ponies, not only can they bleed combat feats but they can use all of their non fighter feats to do Stuff other than combat.

Ultimately you only have to optimize as much as is needed to stay within the paradigm of the group you play with. Somone a while ago posted a thread on practical optimization which had a guy who could

fight in melee
fire a bow effectively
lead others effectively
and woo the ladies
all on 15 pt buy starting with a 15 str i think it was. I cant remember the name of the thread though.

It isnt the game that Sets the need for 2d6+11 11 damage at lvl 1 its players. But Fighters can be as interesting as you make them out to be. They are probly the most 'disgn a char to do what you want or fit and non magic role' class. Which is both a blessing and a curse i guess.

Fighters = Fighting. Barbarians = More than fighting. What other purpose could they practically do? They're footsoldiers. The only variants they should have is how they fight.

Paladins, Clerics, and all the other clowns make better leaders because they have the skill points, capabilities, and all the other statistics to make better leaders. They also have the better reasonings and subjects to woo the ladies, heal the sick, defend the weak and the poor, etc.

What do fighters have? "Oh hey. I'm just some average joe who tries to specialize his whole life in fighting because I'm no good at anything else."

What do fighters have? "Oh hey. I'm just some average joe who tries to specialize his whole life in fighting because I'm no good at anything else."

Sorry not everyone had the same opportunities or rich daddies to send them to that there fancy wizardy school, cupcake.

Let's say that I'm some rich noble, and my parents had all the cash in the world to send me to some fancy pantsy wizard school.

What good is it going to do when my character isn't exactly smart or comprehensible enough to succeed at such methods? Not a damn thing. So they kick me out because I am incompetent and shouldn't have even been considered as a wizard candidate in the first place.

You don't need to be that smart to be a Wizard. An 11 int would cut it, though you'd only ever cast first level and zeroes.

My point exactly: Incompetence. A Wizard doesn't just concern himself with the basics, such as Magic Missile, Resistance, etc., they must see and go beyond that, hence why characters starting out usually have 16+ in their primary stat.

Most fighters don't have Intelligence, heck, some even use it as a dump stat. Doesn't change the fact that the Fighters are dumb and have no concept of magic, where as a Barbarian (which is even more of a dumb typical melee class) has access to all kinds of magical effects.

More and more, I am drawn to Gestalt precisely because it makes characters good at more than one thing. Or ideally, anyway. I have seen a few that if they could, would be fighter/fighters and just FIGHT MORE.

More a thread on WHY as a fighter, You have to dedicate ALOT of rescources to do ANYTHING besides your schick and in doing so can hamper your stick.

I know about AM BARBARIAN, I made the CaGM build.

I guess it's a feeling fighters should have got...More.

Power Attack is Awesome because it scales.
Spells Scale.

Could fighters use some FIGHTER ONLY FEATS THAT SCALE??

Probably the Closest Paralell is the Samurai/Cavalier.
Ignore Rangers/Pallies cause they get Magic and a Pet.

But a Samurai in Particular can switch hit as well as a fighter and Resist the sh!t out of most conditions and they ain't magical at all.

I think the Style Feats that scale could be a way to 'fix' this.
So far they have been aimed at monks.

What about a Zweihander Style for example.
the feat preq should be FIGHTER X/combat feat and that's it.
Example.
Zweihander stlye- preq Fighter4/Power Attack. When you 2 handed standard or charge attack and hit the enemy is sickened for 1round. At level 8 this improves to 2 rounds. At level 12 this improves to Neaseated.

Tiger Style- Preq- Fighter 6
When you hit with a target wit multiple strikes (either from you primary or offhand weapon) you Inflict one point of Bleed damage per hit. This bleed damage stacks on subsequent rounds.
At level 8, 2points for each point of bleed you inflict the target is flatfooted for a round.
At level 12, when ever you flank with an ally you gain SA dice equal to 1d6/3 levels.

Stealth Style Preq- Fighter 2, 14Dex
Whenever you use Stealth in Armor you recive a stealth bonus equal to 1/4 your fighter level.
At level 8 when you attack from stealth your recive the benefits of the Gtr Vital Strike Feat.
At 12 level whenever you strike from stealth your enemy must make a fort save (DC10+your BAB) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to your weapons Crit Mod.

The reason Fighters have to dedicate so much more to do anything other than fight, is because they're starved for interesting resources.

Yes, they're the king of feats, but everybody gets feats. Fighters just get more of them. There's nothing unique and special about feats.
Then, when the Fighter DOES get his own unique shiney things, they're ENTIRELY dedicated to his combat viability (Armor/Weapon Training, etc.)

And then, moving further along, they're stuck with 2+Int for skills. Well, Int doesn't help a fighter mechanically, so he has no incentive to increase it. And at a base of 2, his options for "being someone more than just a machine swinging a piece of metal" gets seriously hampered.

And, finally, the fighting styles that allow him to spend his points in a way that lets him be more interesting and less of a one-trick-pony... are just bad.
Compare "Dazzling Display" and "Power Attack."
Did you want to TWF or Shoot things with a bow? Say good bye to all your feats; you just invested the majority of them for most of your career.

@ Neo2151: Finally, somebody who truly understands Fighter mechanics and how they function. That is exactly what a Fighter is, an idiot who swings a piece of metal because they can't cast spells or aren't holy or chosen or whatever. They're not special, so they don't get anything special.

Common footsoldiers is what they are, and no more. (And hopefully no less.)

@ STR Ranger: I only referenced the whole "AM BARBARIAN" thing because he's cool, and because Barbarians get all kinds of crazy (magical) things, even though they are stereotypically dumber than average fighters.

And yes, I know that this is not a "Screw Fighters" thread. I am only advocating the whole "Screw Fighters" sort of thing (even though, ironically, I am playing a Mobile Fighter), because it's not like there is anything special or unique to a Fighter that can't be bypassed (or most definitely surpassed) through other means.

Paladins can heal themselves, take the same amount of feats as a Fighter, Cast spells, have crazy saves, and be immune to everything but the kitchen sink (literally; that is, they would still take 1dx points of damage from the Kitchen Sink, with standard protocol for DR and modifiers and such). Monks have the same crazy saves, immobilize targets like the snap of fingers, have more AC than fighters, have less attacks (though is irrelevant due to their ability to immobilize), and the whole Ki Pool system. (And more that I didn't list.)

I don't see how a Fighter can even hold a candle to any of the other martial/melee classes, other than "Oh yeah! I can run faster (like a girl due to lack of protection for Charm/Fear effects) and have better benefits from my armor and weapons; because I realize without my gear I am nothing but trash. But you guys? Oh, you definitely can function without that Holy Avenger or that +3 Greatsword of Doom and Sadness, and my benefits are the same as yours with the right class features and spells!"

I have never made a one trick pony, and I don't like the idea of doing so. I often give my martial classes something unique to the class. I might have a diplomacy based barbarian or a fighter that has ranks in spellcraft(traits make it a class skill). That way I can hit things hard and still be useful in other areas. If you build the "stereotypical" fighter then sure you might get bored, but if you think outside the box you can stab things in the face, and find other ways to be useful.

PS:I still think more interesting class features would have been nice. I would even trade in some feats for them. :(

I have never made a one trick pony, and I don't the idea of doing so. I often give my martial classes something unique to the class. I might have a diplomacy based barbarian or a fighter that has ranks in spellcraft(traits make it a class skill). That way I can hit things hard and still be useful in other areas. If you build the "stereotypical" fighter then sure you might get bored, but if you think outside the box you can stab things in the face, and find other ways to be useful.

PS:I still think more interesting class features would have been nice. I would even trade in some feats for them. :(

This.

Hence new scalable fighter only feats. A means of fixing the class without changing the base.

Example:
Mental Toughness- Your body fortifies your mind.
You add your constitution bonus to your will saves.
At 8th level if you fail a will or fort save, you can knock some sense into your self.
Make an unarmed strike against yourself that automatically hits. You can a single reroll attempt against an ongoing condition affecting you.
You can do this once more at level 12, 16 and 20

Ask the wizard how effective he is without his components pouch or his spellbook.

Some classes and/or creatures have no need for components or a spellbook. Those classes would absolutely slaughter the others, because their powers aren't driven from "I have item X, which allows me to do action Y, causing subject Z to eat his own s***".

I like the Lore Warden and College Trained Fighter archetype/alternative. Together you get 6 skill points per level, and get good returns from intelligence. I once played a fighter with this combination that was essentially a walking monster encyclopedia, with every knowledge skill that could be used to identify creatures maxed and a nice set of mastered combat maneuvers and critical effects.

I like the Lore Warden and College Trained Fighter archetype/alternative. Together you get 6 skill points per level, and get good returns from intelligence. I once played a fighter with this combination that was essentially a walking monster encyclopedia, with every knowledge skill that could be used to identify creatures maxed and a nice set of mastered combat maneuvers and critical effects.

Personally, this is a true (and legendary-worthy) warrior. If the fighter is still quite competent in martial combat while at the same time providing equivalent prowess in understanding the opponent's weaknesses and how to reduce their strengths, (s)he is truly worthy of the word.

As I've said before, anything else fighter-related isn't exactly worthwhile, because all they contribute is being a big block of flesh/metal, with a whirling metal doohickey trying to hit something for mediocre damage and failing horribly 90% of the time.

I don't think extra fighter-enhanced feats are the answer. We're already approaching the area of "there are too many feat choices and not enough feats."

Things that should have been done with the Core rules just weren't done, and that's too bad, because we'll have to suffer for it for the rest of the game's life. For example:

Why not let specific weapon feats apply to their respective weapon group instead? "Weapon Focus: Longsword" becomes "Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades." Now, your +2 greatsword-wielding Fighter doesn't have to cry himself to sleep that night after he happens upon a +2 Shocking bastard sword. Iconic weapons can even start making a bigger appearance again (Flametongue or Holy Avenger anybody?)
Why does a TWF character need to spend three feats? Just combine it all into one feat and call it a day (it works for Conan d20, so it's not broken or anything.) Now you have more feats left to do interesting things instead of just optomized things.

You take a bit too extreme of a stance for my tastes Darksol (after all, some people enjoy simple characters- nothing wrong with that), but I think we basically agree. A brute isn't really an effective member of a team if all he can do is pump out damage; they need to offer something for multiple situations, and be able to provide at least some kind of aid outside of thrashing badguys.

I have never made a one trick pony, and I don't the idea of doing so. I often give my martial classes something unique to the class. I might have a diplomacy based barbarian or a fighter that has ranks in spellcraft(traits make it a class skill). That way I can hit things hard and still be useful in other areas. If you build the "stereotypical" fighter then sure you might get bored, but if you think outside the box you can stab things in the face, and find other ways to be useful.

PS:I still think more interesting class features would have been nice. I would even trade in some feats for them. :(

This.

Hence new scalable fighter only feats. A means of fixing the class without changing the base.

Example:
Mental Toughness- Your body fortifies your mind.
You add your constitution bonus to your will saves.
At 8th level if you fail a will or fort save, you can knock some sense into your self.
Make an unarmed strike against yourself that automatically hits. You can a single reroll attempt against an ongoing condition affecting you.
You can do this once more at level 12, 16 and 20

I had a similar discussion on the WoTC boards a while back. I think a fighter getting more use out of certain feats would be better. That way you don't have to create new feats. As an example improved initiative might scale, or that feat that increases your shield bonus might scale.

Other examples are that lunge might remove the penalty to AC or the Stand still feat might work on anyone you threaten, and not just adjacent opponents.

You take a bit too extreme of a stance for my tastes Darksol (after all, some people enjoy simple characters- nothing wrong with that), but I think we basically agree. A brute isn't really an effective member of a team if all he can do is pump out damage; they need to offer something for multiple situations, and be able to provide at least some kind of aid outside of thrashing badguys.

It's probably because I've had one too many. I do apologize if I come across as "extreme," as my stances currently may also change, and are also subject to the adjective/adverb/verb "volatile" (in that they may vary from time to time, with no true way to determine as to how and why).

But it's true; fighters don't have anything special or super-powerful. They have good Fort saves, though other classes are superior in that regard; they have acceptable Class Features (though others most likely have better), they can't cast spells to improve their defenses (which others can, while receiving the same benefits to that of the Fighters), and they have hardly any immunities or benefits that distinct themselves from other classes. I'm not going to lie and say "Fighters are truly the most bada** class in the f***ing world, and you'd be dumb to not have one," but you're right in saying I shouldn't be all down about the fighter class.

When is a one trick pony overdoing it? Depends on how good the trick is. Of course this also applies to every class. Take a wizard and fill your spell book with s+#!ty spells and then proceed to watch your fighter take down the monster while you fumble around casting spells that make little difference. You just took your one trick (spell casting) and made sure it wasn't worth it. Take the same wizard and now learn and prep good spells while keeping scrolls, staves, and rod on hand and you are awesome.

The fighter is no different then anyone else. Most people invest heavily in what they perceive they are good at while making some concessions for livability or secondary roles. Mechanically there is no reason why a fighter can't both do damage and fill a secondary role in the group.

Role play wise you are only as dumb as you choose to be (either IC or as a forced limitation of dumping INT). Let's say I am a general of an army. I have knowledge of tactics but I don't know anything about the enemy I am planning on fighting. I consult my advisers, make a trip to my local library, and once I have all the facts I can gather I put together the plan with my knowledge of tactics.

In short you don't have to do it all. It would actually detract from the game if every fighter knew everything about magic or exotic races from other planes. Why would I need a wizard if I could do it on my own? The wizard certainly needs me (see how well he does if he gets ambushed in the middle of the night. Even if he lives, there goes tomorrows spells).

As far as game balance goes I wouldn't be angry that the wizard is good at high levels when he optimized for using his magic. Remember when you optimized for damage and could have killed him with one swipe of your sword at first level? We all have a roll to play that is dynamic throughout the course of the game. Expecting to do the same thing all game long and be awesome is ridiculous.

Think about it like a MOBA. Certain characters will be strong in the beginning, others at the end. Our job is too win together using our combined strengths to overcome our weaknesses. No one got to the end game alone. What roles you fill at what point in the game will depend on the game itself and your team composition. Maybe a fighter isn't the way to go for certain teams, but don't rag on it because it may not be for you.

Overdoing the one trick for me is- If I have found a way to reliably KO an opponent in 2 rounds. It's time to learn a new trick

Eg DPR threads.
Some builds do enough HP damage to drop a CR foe in 1 round eg a 20th level fighter doing 600+ HP is MAYBE overdoing it. If you can 1. Charge a foe and on rd2 it dies you are probably sufficiently optimized. Learn something else.

But it's a lot HARDER (though not Impossible to have) to make a Really kick ass versatile fighter.
I still make fighters, I love.fighters.

My experience is that fighters are much more versatile than people give them credit. However, you really do need a firm understanding of all the combat options and be willing to take a penalty here and there and/or provoke the occasional AoO (neither is really a problem given your full bab and large hd).

Outside of combat fighters have no class options and few skill points. This is a problem for people who define their characters only by what they excel at. I see this as an opportunity to be creative - a fighter can do all the same stuff outside of combat as everyone else provided that you don't need to be particularly skilled to do it. Just because you're not the party face doesn't mean you should be locked in your room at the tavern when NPCs are about.

Ultimately, I do agree with you: it takes a lot of system knowledge and creativity to play an efficient and versatile fighter.

If you want a martial class that is efficient and versatile right out of the box I'd steer you to a vanilla Order of the Warrior Samurai. Investing in only general combat feats (e.g., Power Attack, Furious Focus, Dodge, Toughness, etc) you get a warrior that excels in two-handed melee: can start combat with a pole-arm or long bow (on foot or mounted) and instantly switch to a foot mobile swordsman (via quickdraw (samurai weapon training) and ride skill options (quick mount/dismount)). Throw an enchanted Quick Draw shield into the mix and now you've got a warrior that can quickly adopt to many different combat situations. Incidentally, the Samurai gets 4 skill ranks/level and more interesting class skills (e.g., diplomacy and knowledge (history) and (nobility)).

One is a
Str 16 (14+2Human) (level bump to 18)
Dex 15 (level bump to 18)
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 15
Two Weapon Warrior who is a Good looking Dumb jock (think Channing Tatum in 21 Jump St) who is going for the whole TWF and Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline). Makes for an interesting playboy who never quite grasps more than what am I killing next and 'hey our sorceress is a babe' . Fun char but beyond Survival skill checks he contributes nothing outside combat. Only gets 3 skills per level= Perception, UMD maxed and the other is spread around a bit.
Good will save (for a Human fighter)
Great TWF and can shoot a bit.

The other is a
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Wis 12
Int 12
Cha 11
Samurai who is going for Deadly Stroke. He walks around with his bow out and Quick draws his Katana for switch hitting. He intimidates the crap out of Bad Guys and can debuff a bit via Dazzling Display/Conugan Smash AND RESOLVE lets him throw of conditions.

These threads. Jeez. This is what archetypes were meant to accomplish. Tactician? Spend your normal feats on flavorful ones, and combat feats on...gee, combat feats? Get a higher Int for Combat Expertise? Take the Mounted Combat tree? There are many very easy ways to make a fighter much more than a one-trick pony. None of the other martial classes have that stigma because they have "Class Abilities" instead of feats.

And frankly, saying "But it's not core!" is an unfair statement. What exactly are they supposed to do to fix the fighter? Errata the core rulebook? Or fix it in subsequent publications?

Here's a thought: what about feats that scale ONLY for fighters - i.e., Improved Init gives the flat bonus to everyone who takes it, but gives a scaling bonus based on the number of fighter levels you have?

What do fighters have? "Oh hey. I'm just some average joe who tries to specialize his whole life in fighting because I'm no good at anything else."

Roy Greenhilt begs to differ.

The real problem here is that you can't imagine roleplaying outside of your class abilities. You don't have any concept of a character beyond the gaming stats.

Rememmber the two leading NPC's of Hommlet? One of them was a fighter with no fancy shmancy magical or stealth skills and he wasn't much of a "face". But he had character, he was a living part of the town with role he played as a civic leader.

Your gaming stats aren't your character, they're just the skeleton you build your roleplaying on, but fleshing that skeleton requires thinking beyond the box. Not outside the box, including it and beyond.

We are progressing on Low XP Table, and the DM make it extra-slow. This game been running for 5years now, playing around 1night/2 weeks.

We are now lvl15, and I have a clear look on my old pure brute fighter, the actual ranger and the paladin. Not to mention Magus.

Well, things are easy as this: If we have time to buff ourselves, which we usually have assuming all tools a lvl15 party can have... well... I really don't see any reason a Fighter would have to exist.

I can crush ennemies with some 2-300DPR, I can cast HEAL for 150HP once or twice without much problem, I have True Seeing, Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Air Walk, and Righteous Might to be even more OP than your casual Enlarge Person.

I have the best Will Save around with the Paladin, (26wisdom, meh), I can blast a Flame Strike, Blade Barrier or Firestorm, and for the mean of it, can make wizards rage with their weak Disintegrate while I have that awesome and terrible spell named Destruction.

Finally, as a cleric, I have one of the highest Diplomacy of the party, and usually get on the first line with the pally when it comes to Roleplay.

So actually, I'm more than a "Jack of all trades". I just do everything. I can heal like a boss, I can do melee damages a fighter could hardly dream of, I can challenge the spellcasters like nobody does, and I can OMFGWTFBBQ destroy any undead coming my way with Channel Smite and shared smite evil.

What could you more possibly dream of? I have Strength and War domains, with subsequent Subdomains, I have numerous calls to increase my damages and grant myself some combat feat I need on the fly (Blindfight, Cleave, Improved <insert manoeuver name>, ...), and can overcome any strength check that could be asked in the game.

So yes, as more as the levels increase, I think the "pure fighter" in Pathfinder is as it was in 3.5: Completely behind hybrids.

The only flavor I can give to the fighter is that he doesn't need a few rounds of buffs to be ready. That's all of it.

Sadly, I have to admit that the so called "oldest rpg game" and their wtf-4th edition had the way of doing it with the fighter. Those who played might understand what I'm saying. The fighter in 4th Edition was a real "tank" as you are used to see in MMORPG. For the best or the worst, you still had a real feeling of being useful on the battlefield, no matter who your allies were.

i personally support the battle oracle. it's saves are a little lower, but it's much less mad. needing less dexterity due to heavy armor, air walk reduces the need for a bow, and spellcasting is based on charisma, which is sweet when combined with eldritch heritage (Abyssal) for a fat inherent bonus to strength.

We are progressing on Low XP Table, and the DM make it extra-slow. This game been running for 5years now, playing around 1night/2 weeks.

We are now lvl15, and I have a clear look on my old pure brute fighter, the actual ranger and the paladin. Not to mention Magus.

Well, things are easy as this: If we have time to buff ourselves, which we usually have assuming all tools a lvl15 party can have... well... I really don't see any reason a Fighter would have to exist.

I can crush ennemies with some 2-300DPR, I can cast HEAL for 150HP once or twice without much problem, I have True Seeing, Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Air Walk, and Righteous Might to be even more OP than your casual Enlarge Person.

I have the best Will Save around with the Paladin, (26wisdom, meh), I can blast a Flame Strike, Blade Barrier or Firestorm, and for the mean of it, can make wizards rage with their weak Disintegrate while I have that awesome and terrible spell named Destruction.

Finally, as a cleric, I have one of the highest Diplomacy of the party, and usually get on the first line with the pally when it comes to Roleplay.

So actually, I'm more than a "Jack of all trades". I just do everything. I can heal like a boss, I can do melee damages a fighter could hardly dream of, I can challenge the spellcasters like nobody does, and I can OMFGWTFBBQ destroy any undead coming my way with Channel Smite and shared smite evil.

What could you more possibly dream of? I have Strength and War domains, with subsequent Subdomains, I have numerous calls to increase my damages and grant myself some combat feat I need on the fly (Blindfight, Cleave, Improved <insert manoeuver name>, ...), and can overcome any...

You are using a full caster, and a cleric at that, arguably the most powerful class in the game. The cleric being really good is not the same as the fighter can't be built to do anything except fight, even though I will admit the average player will use it that way. Then again many players don't try to use it for anything else.

i personally support the battle oracle. it's saves are a little lower, but it's much less mad. needing less dexterity due to heavy armor, air walk reduces the need for a bow, and spellcasting is based on charisma, which is sweet when combined with eldritch heritage (Abyssal) for a fat inherent bonus to strength.

If you are using bloodlines for DPR purposes then take the orc bloodline.

Abyssal offers it too. and with both, the first level powers are relatively useless.

claws are useless except as a last ditch weapon in the odd case of sunder

touch of rage would have been a great power, if it didn't have a one round duration and require a tax to be quickened 3 times per day. it's a bonus not worth relying on and doesn't help you at all. the 1 round duration is wasted before you can use it.

size enhancing powers do not stack. and you already get righteous might 5 levels earlier.

knowledge planes is generally more important than survival since you will fight evil outsiders a lot more than you follow trails in the wilderness.

eldritch heritage does not offer the bloodline arcana

orc also has the disadvantage of being released in the companion line rather than the rpg line, so it is a less commonly printed and used line. even more so, the companion is written for a rarely allowed race. the orc.

The problem of having nothing to do but full attack is a dream for optimizers. Full attacks are usually the best option for a non-spell caster. If I want to be as effective as possible I want to eliminate rounds where I lose damage because I am not putting out as many attacks as possible. It may seem boring, but raining attacks on an enemy with consistency is damage 101. Options are nice, but obliterating your enemies is better.

If you don't want to be bored by turning on the turbo button and talking away while everything dies then you need to pick another class or game system. Welcome to the reality of combat for non-spell casters. We make attacks either in melee or ranged, and that's about it. Sure we can try to "tank" by pissing off the monster and being a bigger threat then everyone else, but taking a beating well isn't a role that works well without giving the monsters some reason to attack you. In the case where you don't do much damage you have to find other ways to lock enemies in combat with you and make yourself the only viable target they have. Sadly you can't do this all the time. Circumstances make it all but impossible to hold threat against a determined enemy without outside help (typically in the form of spells).

There is nothing wrong with a fighter. Damage is the one trick that almost nothing can universally overcome. Sure, other classes can do damage too, and if they get the chance to buff for an hour of table time then they will be awesome. Personally though, I'd brutally murder you in your sleep or find ways to stop you from sleeping till you have no spells if that kind of crap went down in my game. This isn't WoW, the boss won't sit in the room while you all stand outside and buff for god knows how long. Maybe you all might be lucky enough to get the time if your fighter can keep him off you.

In short its weak, pathetic GM's who give the fighter a bad name. If your game were brutal enough you'd appreciate the virtue of being able to pound out damage. Just hope you all never have to fight in an anti-magic field because you'll get your teeth kicked in.

Abyssal offers it too. and with both, the first level powers are relatively useless.

claws are useless except as a last ditch weapon in the odd case of sunder

touch of rage would have been a great power, if it didn't have a one round duration and require a tax to be quickened 3 times per day. it's a bonus not worth relying on and doesn't help you at all. the 1 round duration is wasted before you can use it.

size enhancing powers do not stack. and you already get righteous might 5 levels earlier.

knowledge planes is generally more important than survival since you will fight evil outsiders a lot more than you follow trails in the wilderness.

eldritch heritage does not offer the bloodline arcana

orc also has the disadvantage of being released in the companion line rather than the rpg line, so it is a less commonly printed and used line. even more so, the companion is written for a rarely allowed race. the orc.

I do agree the orc bloodline is in a companion book, but I disagree that the first power is useless. Well at first it is not all that great, but as an SLA you can take quicken SLA, and put out a lot of damage if the GM allows for the bloodline to be used. In short it depends on what level you are playing to.

Samurai who is going for Deadly Stroke. He walks around with his bow out and Quick draws his Katana for switch hitting. He intimidates the crap out of Bad Guys and can debuff a bit via Dazzling Display/Conugan Smash AND RESOLVE lets him throw of conditions.

Guess which one contributes more in and.out of Combat...

This is what I like about the Samurai - you get a specific package of class abilities that work well together right out of the box. With a fighter you really need to spend time in advance really thinking about how your package of feats is going to work together in combat.

Abyssal offers it too. and with both, the first level powers are relatively useless.

claws are useless except as a last ditch weapon in the odd case of sunder

touch of rage would have been a great power, if it didn't have a one round duration and require a tax to be quickened 3 times per day. it's a bonus not worth relying on and doesn't help you at all. the 1 round duration is wasted before you can use it.

size enhancing powers do not stack. and you already get righteous might 5 levels earlier.

knowledge planes is generally more important than survival since you will fight evil outsiders a lot more than you follow trails in the wilderness.

eldritch heritage does not offer the bloodline arcana

orc also has the disadvantage of being released in the companion line rather than the rpg line, so it is a less commonly printed and used line. even more so, the companion is written for a rarely allowed race. the orc.

I do agree the orc bloodline is in a companion book, but I disagree that the first power is useless. Well at first it is not all that great, but as an SLA you can take quicken SLA, and put out a lot of damage if the GM allows for the bloodline to be used. In short it depends on what level you are playing to.

core rulebook is more official a source than the companion line. Orcs of Golarion is an obscure companion of limited publishment.

the first power is useless until you take quicken SLA, and it only lasts one round, which is wasted without spending a feat on quicken SLA. which only works 3 times per day. a feat for 3 rounds of increased damage per day isn't worth it. that's not even one encounter per day, and either it is needed far more than you can use it, or it's wasted overkill damage

the 15th level power isn't available till level 17, and most campaigns i have noticed end at 10th, maybe 15th at latest.

Well, something to keep in mind is fighters do it better. So sure, they don't have a whole lot other than "I hit things with a pointy stick", but they hit people better and do more damage with that pointy stick than anyone else can ever dream of. They do this while having a medium-to-high AC, good CMD, and a lot of hit points. Pointy sticks are also an inexhaustible resource.

Additionally, all the feats fighters get mean they can do other things. Be Cosmopolitan! Have a sorcerer bloodline! Take racial feats. Overcome DR better. Crit better. Be a combat maneuver monkey- Combat Expertise leads into some really fun tricks with disarm and trip. Take fighter-exclusive feats: Step Up + Disruptive is a dirty combination only fighters can really get. Feats are a fighter's "special", so use them.

The only complaint I have about fighters, and it is a very minor one, is that I wish they had 4 + Int skills. It would be nice to be able to get all the physical skills easily. Then again, I think all classes except Int-based ones should have a minimum of 4 + Int, but that's not a part of this discussion.

Well, something to keep in mind is fighters do it better. So sure, they don't have a whole lot other than "I hit things with a pointy stick", but they hit people better and do more damage with that pointy stick than anyone else can ever dream of. They do this while having a medium-to-high AC, good CMD, and a lot of hit points. Pointy sticks are also an inexhaustible resource.

The only problem here is that this is actually a myth.

A Raging Barbarian is outdoing a Fighter on damage. His AC is lower but his DR makes up for that. Also, 2 more skills per level.
A Smiting Paladin WAY outdoes a Fighter on damage. He has the same skills, but has a generally better AC (and WAY better saves) to boot.
A Ranger fighting a Favored Enemy is outdoing the Fighter too, and has a ton of extra skills and useful tricks he can do in and out of combat.

You could argue that the Fighter outperforms the Paladin/Ranger when they're not using their abilities, but a Ranger can cast a spell and turn anything into his Favored Enemy, and a GM that doesn't let his Paladin player Smite Evil is being a pretty mean GM.

The problem that needs to be addressed is that, yes, a Fighter *can* be useful in non-combat areas, but he has to sacrifice his points in Str and put them in another ability (Int or Cha, generally) in order to pull it off.
Meanwhile, the other Combat Classes have interesting "out of combat" options offered to them that are built right into the class.

Well, something to keep in mind is fighters do it better. So sure, they don't have a whole lot other than "I hit things with a pointy stick", but they hit people better and do more damage with that pointy stick than anyone else can ever dream of. They do this while having a medium-to-high AC, good CMD, and a lot of hit points. Pointy sticks are also an inexhaustible resource.

The only problem here is that this is actually a myth.

A Raging Barbarian is outdoing a Fighter on damage. His AC is lower but his DR makes up for that. Also, 2 more skills per level.
A Smiting Paladin WAY outdoes a Fighter on damage. He has the same skills, but has a generally better AC (and WAY better saves) to boot.
A Ranger fighting a Favored Enemy is outdoing the Fighter too, and has a ton of extra skills and useful tricks he can do in and out of combat.

You could argue that the Fighter outperforms the Paladin/Ranger when they're not using their abilities, but a Ranger can cast a spell and turn anything into his Favored Enemy, and a GM that doesn't let his Paladin player Smite Evil is being a pretty mean GM.

The problem that needs to be addressed is that, yes, a Fighter *can* be useful in non-combat areas, but he has to sacrifice his points in Str and put them in another ability (Int or Cha, generally) in order to pull it off.
Meanwhile, the other Combat Classes have interesting "out of combat" options offered to them that are built right into the class.

I've seen (and done) some of the theory-crafting of numbers. You are incorrect. Fighters do higher damage than paladins, rangers, and barbarians on a consistent basis even when those classes are fighting their favored enemies/smite targets/raging. Additionally, rangers and paladins have secondary stats as well: rangers have Wisdom and paladins have Charisma. That doesn't count as a "stat sacrifice" for them, so it shouldn't for fighters either.

Further, fighters still have all those other feats to play with. They can, as I mentioned before, be creative with their feats or make themselves better combat monkeys. Either way, having almost twice as many feats as any other class is a significant benefit that must be considered.

Well, although Fighter do usually put more damage and have a higher AC, it's usually not by much. At least, not by enough of a margin that if justifies a class that can only do that.

I Fighters had 4 skill points per level, they would not step on anyone's toes and would have much more things to do. (even freaking Druids get 4 skill ranks per level!)

They also lack some kind of non-fighting skill. I've never been to the military, but I'm guessing most soldiers are trained to do more than shoot well.

While having a single trick may be viable (if the trick is good enough!), it's also boring. The reason I no longer play fighter is not because they are "weak", but because they have absolutely nothing unique to them, and have little to do other than say "I Full attack" or "I move up to him and attack". and 10 extra feats don't help much with that, they usually only make him hit harder.

So I guess being one-trick pony is overdoing it when you either a) suck at basically everything else, or b) your trick is so repetitive it becomes boring.

Well, although Fighter do usually put more damage and have a higher AC, it's usually not by much. At least, not by enough of a margin that if justifies a class that can only do that.

I Fighters had 4 skill points per level, they would not step on anyone's toes and would have much more things to do. (even freaking Druids get 4 skill ranks per level!)

They also lack some kind of non-fighting skill. I've never been to the military, but I'm guessing most soldiers are trained to do more than shoot well.

While having a single trick may be viable (if the trick is good enough!), it's also boring. The reason I no longer play fighter is not because they are "weak", but because they have absolutely nothing unique to them, and have little to do other than say "I Full attack" or "I move up to him and attack". and 10 extra feats don't help much with that, they usually only make him hit harder.

So I guess being one-trick pony is overdoing it when you either a) suck at basically everything else, or b) your trick is so repetitive it becomes boring.

I do agree on this wholeheartedly. My temporary solution is that my fighters are usually expert climbers, solid swimmers, and have 1 rank in things like Knowledge (engineering) and Survival. Enough to roll, enough to do simple things, but not enough to be considered expert. I also have a grab-bag of useful tools: shovel, hammer, crowbar, etc. I find that gives me enough to do in out-of-combat situations.