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Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Some things I found interesting the pointed to as support for his ideas that these approaches iof Ueshiba as being something unique.

The experiences Ueshiba had in learning Judo were in his youth, and his teacher was himself a shodan. The 51 counters to Judo appear to be a descrition of any engagement imaginable and in my view are meaningless as definitions. The methods of counters he discusses in which he defines aiki as straining hands is erroneous and is of a very limited view. Aiki has nothing at all to do with straining against a hand grab. In fact in training to release from a grab it is the weaknesses inherent in both the grip (and in the structural alignment of the bodies frame that supports it) that teaches one to attack and release the grip specifically without strain. It is the furtherance of the sensitivity in meeting the grip and softening the approach that seizes and takes control of the body through the same channels trained and used in the releases. This is a deeper discussion than is served here, but the straining hands comment addresses the depth of the work.
Likewise where he outlines what he supposes is “Ueshiba's unique approach" to countering judo throws? To be in motion when grabbed? This is erroneous as well. Again due to ignorance -so many things are mistakenly accorded as something unique to Ueshiba’s development, when all too often we go back and find it is just yet another foundational approach in Daito ryu. This time as one of its methods in aiki for the hand, arm, or body to be in motion when meeting a grip. There are specific motions, defined approaches, and a more in depth internal way to be in motion within the body when meeting force. And his referring to Daito ryu aiki as a singular thing is troublesome as well.
In this sense I find the conclusions reached and the "reaching" for inclusions like Kito ryu-for substance in explaining the counter methods... are outlined and well defined in the only art Ueshiba ever spent any length of time in -over twenty years- that art being Daito ryu. There is no comparison of form and method or anything that I can see here to point to Kito ryu, or much of anything else but his excellent previous training. I see it as just another attempt to explain something followers didn’t really understand or have explanations for and have to assign artificial complexities to a really simple answer.

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

The methods of counters he discusses in which he defines aiki as straining hands is erroneous and is of a very limited view. Aiki has nothing at all to do with straining against a hand grab.

I'd like for an idiomatic Japanese reader with some familiarity with aiki, etc., to take a look at the characters for "straining hands" before I'd totally accept that the translation was accurate, though.

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

I'd like for an idiomatic Japanese reader with some familiarity with aiki, etc., to take a look at the characters for "straining hands" before I'd totally accept that the translation was accurate, though.

FWIW

Mike

I wouldn't as I am unconcerned what an idiomatic reader who knows aiki (whatever that means to them) has to say about the training methods of DR and why you do it. The discussion was "straining hands in Daito ryu" ..that..is what he was discussing, not aikido, not kito ryu, not judo, not CMA.In other words regardless of the correct or incorrect interpretation of an idograph- there is only one that applies.
To further that, were he to "understand" the topic he wouldn't forward the point even were it idiomatically correct without correcting that explanation. Really he would never have forwarded the other point, as well were he conversant of this one point as they are in fact related in ways he clearly doesn't understand.
Yet he attributes this skill-which has some depth to it past his cursory treatment, as yet another Ueshiba "discovery"...of what turns out to be another detailed prior teaching Ueshiba spent twenty years learning under Takeda.
Every year or so I am reminded of Ueshiba's statement that "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo." and I smile. .

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

I'd like for an idiomatic Japanese reader with some familiarity with aiki, etc., to take a look at the characters for "straining hands" before I'd totally accept that the translation was accurate, though.

FWIW

Mike

Heresy! The skills are beyond language! Signs of their absence or presence may always be read by those who know, without regard to the language in which the signs appear! All who know, know this! Do not question, lest you release the secret techniques of Aiki no In Yo Face and darkness and calamity spread across the land!

Actually, I'd like to see the original too; my guess is that the translation at hand is representative of the third (and most unfortunate) category of mistresses left undiscussed in the famous characterization of translations: neither faithful nor beautiful.

This particular word choice (and some other minor problems in the English text) raises flags for me concerning both the English language ability and the martial arts background of the translator, so I too would be hesitant to put much weight on the translation.

O-Sensei: At about the age of 14 or 15. First I learned Tenshinyo-ryu Jiujitsu from Tokusaburo Tozawa Sensei, then Kito-ryu, Yagyu-ryu, Aioi-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, all of them jujutsu forms. However, I thought there might be a true form of budo elsewhere. I tried Hozoin-ryu sojitsu and kendo. But all of these arts are concerned with one-to-one combat forms and they could not satisfy me. So I visited many parts of the country seeking the Way and training, but all in vain.

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Thanks, Dan. I'm aware of that interview and have addressed it in my (ahem) book.
What we do not have is a) any dates of formal learning b) any instructor. Kito-ryu was, even then, almost extinct.
Honestly, what I think a good translation of Takeshita's diary would show is NOT that Ueshiba was claiming to be doing Kito-ryu, but that he was claiming to teach counters to judo/Kito-ryu (these words were, to a surprising degree, used interchangeably).

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

The quote mentioning "straining hands" is as follows:

Quote:

Fumiaki Shishida wrote:

Based on examination of these 37 passages, this expression refers to the usage of the hand blade(s) in order to break balance, and it is the same as the skill of aiki, which is, in Daito-ryu, the skill of breaking an opponent's balance in a flash by straining hand(s).

"Hand blade" obviously refers to "shuto" or "tegatana". I suspect Shishida is referring to hand positions here, and probably the English he was looking for was "splayed hands", i.e., the "asagao" hand formation. It would be referred in idiomatic Japanese as "te (yubi) wo haru", with the verb "haru" which can mean both "splayed", "spread", as well as "strained".

Of course, Dan Harden's point would remain that merely splaying one's hands would not "break the opponent's balance in a flash". But, by the same token, would we expect any reasonably experienced aikido person to define "kokyu wo ire" as simply "[using] the hand blades to break balance"? Much less an 8th dan Shihan of Shodokan? Perhaps Shishida is being somewhat vague/literal here in order to dumb down the article for his audience.

Regarding the nature of the whole study, I have one concern that could be addressed by providing the original Japanese of the notes. Shishida here (and the following discussion) attributes all the commentary in the notes to Ueshiba himself. I feel that might be a shaky assumption. The notes are clearly Takeshita's notes to himself, to help him learn. As such, they're not likely to be overly specific, particular in the pithy idiom of pre-war written Japanese. Does it actually say, "These are techniques that Ueshiba said could be used against judo"? Or, is perhaps that simply Takeshita's own interpretation of what he was being taught. We know that Ueshiba's teaching style, particularly at this early stage, was not very full of explanation and exposition. He'd show a technique, maybe twice, and then onto the next one. Perhaps Takeshita, conversant with judo, recognized whenever Ueshiba used a particular judo set-up to demonstrate technique/aiki/kokyu, and thus cataloged this particular techniques together. Creating his own "syllabus", as it were, just as every other student of Ueshiba was doing. In other words, is "counters against judo" Ueshiba's words, or merely Takeshita's take? And so further, just how much did Takeshita himself understand about aiki, and how is that understanding (or lack thereof) reflected in the notes he left?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Josh - Those are great points re Takeshita and notes. I've actually worked out/studied privately with various people who have skills I do not. And I take notes - usually brief scribbled memory aids. And there is no guarantee that I've done justice or am even accurate to what has been shown me in a cascade.
On your last point, however, Takeshita was versed in Daito-ryu. (I've never read how good he was, but -). He wrote an essay about Sokaku and knew him well. He later sponsored Ueshiba, and was instrumental in introducing high ranking military to him. In the mid-1930's, he participated personally in a well-known martial arts demo in Tokyo - he was the one demoing Daito-ryu.
EA

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

The methods of counters he discusses in which he defines aiki as straining hands is erroneous and is of a very limited view. Aiki has nothing at all to do with straining against a hand grab.

The critical flaw in this statement is the assumption that the author is referring to "straining against" anything when he says:

Quote:

The expression "Kokyu wo ire" means "show sprit" use in 37 passages in the 147 techniques. Based on examination of these 37 passages, this expression refers to the usage of the hand blade(s) in order to break balance, and it is the same as the skill of aiki, which is, in Daito-Ryu, the skill of breaking an opponent's balance in a flash by straining hand(s).

The "straining hands" quote above is really a reflection of poor translation imho and is not an explanation of what happens when one applies Aiki in this sense. I think Josh's first post gives some insight into this. A visual representation of this concept can be found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QAv0FIQyE - The video shows the application of kuzushi upon being grasped (or " the skill of breaking an opponent's balance in a flash" as said above) by utilizing tegatana in various forms. Done properly Uke does not have the choice of letting go his grasp until he is released. Most of the throws in the video are executed using Tegatana only (i.e. no grip is taken by Tori) which requires Tori to only redirect the power being given by Uke through subtle manipulation of his musculoskeletal alignment and posture.

In an article that speaks about techniques against Judo, the area of Aiki that will be most applicable will be that referring to grasps to the body (which is fundamental to the execution of Judo waza). This same concept of taking immediate total control of an attacker who grasps you on contact has been attributed to Yukiyoshi Sagawa of Daito Ryu and his own students. An example shows up in this article on Aikidojournal - http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=179 .

So imho there is not that much of a difference between what the article says about "straining hands" and the use of tegatana in Daito Ryu, which is what Tomiki studied under Ueshiba M. It is obvious that the article is not about various expressions and training methods of Aiki, but refers specifically to the 37 instances found in Admiral Takeshita's book - Kon.

To my own limited knowledge, Shishida Shihan has had a lot of direct contact with both Takuma Hisa and Tokimune Takeda throughout his very many years of research into Japanese Budo. He was also a direct student of Tomiki Shihan who has been and still is critical in developing many of Tomiki's ideas about Aikido and its evolution.

Personally I don't think the article does justice based on my own talks and practice with Shishida Shihan on this very subject. However I can say that I have applied the principles outlined in the article on Judoka in open randori and to date it has not failed.

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Larry
My contention was a) straining hands was not a definition that anyone who can do it would jibe with. Which you then agreed to. So we can agree it was a poor definition then.

The balance of your post is a repeat of my points that these things are in and from Daito ryu,

Quote:

...Dan wrote
In fact in training to release from a grab it is the weaknesses inherent in both the grip (and in the structural alignment of the bodies frame that supports it) that teaches one to attack and release the grip specifically without strain. It is the furtherance of the sensitivity in meeting the grip and softening the approach that seizes and takes control of the body through the same channels trained and used in the releases....

...so many things are mistakenly accorded as something unique to Ueshiba’s development, when all too often we go back and find it is just yet another foundational approach in Daito ryu. This time as one of its methods in aiki for the hand, arm, or body to be in motion when meeting a grip. There are specific motions, defined approaches, and a more in depth internal way to be in motion within the body when meeting force.

Would you then agree or disagree with the articles assertions that these were somehow "discoveries of Ueshiba" since they are (and which you just repeated after me) foundational skills in Daito ryu?

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Hi guys,

There will be seminars on precisely the topic of this thread held by Shishida Shihan during the month of March in North America. It may be a good opportunity to get some questions answered if he will be appearing nearby.

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Ok, so I've been to the seminar and basically the stuff in that article was just the surface of a much deeper and continuing study. The quoted article is really only an early attempt at dealing with a much more detailed subject. A lot of that detail was covered in the recent seminar and other training sessions and even more remains to be covered.

It's a lot to write about so I won't even try. Just thinking of it too much gives me a headache. Suffice it to say however that Dan was right on some counts and that Josh's ideas on the use of hand blade and the serious issues in translation were also spot on.

A few points that may not be obvious from the article are:

1) The use of the word Aiki in the article and seminar is extremely specific. It relates only to a set of techniques in Daito Ryu that work from a grasping attack (this makes sense since the premise of Judo waza comes from grasping attacks, which is what the article was written to address). The word Aiki is not used to describe any internal mind/body processes, structural alignment and grounding principles or other unseen elements that may be used to apply these waza. My impression was that these skills were taught within the Daito Ryu syllabus but not under the name "Aiki" nor that these skillsets were a specific and separate curriculum per se. The demonstrations of this type of Aiki were also linked to specific known waza that included the name "Aiki," coming from Ueshiba's Aikido circa 1930 (e.g. Aiki nage as seen in Ueshiba's books "Budo" and "Budo Practice"). There may have been many meanings for the word Aiki in Daito Ryu. This article only addressed a particular type of Aiki as it pertained to counters against Judo.

2) The concept of straining hands makes more sense now and has nothing to do with Tori/Nage straining his hands or anything else. The hands that are "strained" are those of the attacker when they make contact with their intended target during a grab. Tori aligns his posture and projects or returns power into the grip by using his legs and spine as a base, realigning Uke's own structure in such a way that one cannot release the grab and is off balance. Balance is broken at the instant of contact and Uke appears to be frozen in space. When I took on the Uke role my hands were instantly manipulated and the force of my grab was realigned in such a way that my arm and spine locked up, leaving me totally off balance (floated) and fundamentally helpless and unable to release my grip. In a real sense the musculature of my hands were "strained" to the point where I had no more control over my grip to release it. So I can see how the translation to English could have given a different than intended meaning. An interesting note is that Shishida Sensei also consulted a member of Sagawa-ha Daito Ryu who indicated that this expression of Aiki was only the beginner stage.

3) I think the statement that these were "discoveries of Ueshiba" may also be off and may have been a result of Ueshiba's common history with Judo, Daito Ryu and possibly Kito Ryu. Again, English was not the strongest point of the article. The seminar showed that everything Ueshiba did during those days (around 1930 or so) was Daito Ryu. So yes Dan these were not unique imho but were expressions of Daito Ryu waza as shown to Tomiki and Takeshita by Ueshiba.

4) The question of whether Takeshita or others understood "Aiki" is not really a question based on the very specific context of its use in the article. If one did not understand it, one could not become proficient in Daito Ryu. From my discussions with the author and his research assistant, "Aiki no jutsu" was everywhere in the Daito Ryu syllabus, one could not become proficient in the system without getting a grasp of it imho.

5) The whole concept of Counters against Judo is based also on ma ai. Since Judo waza required a grip on ones clothing to work, Ueshiba would execute waza from the Daito Ryu syllabus that would capitalize on the attempt to grab and the grab itself. People like Kano and Tomiki could instantly create kuzushi on establishing a grip so the Aiki waza used would neutralize the grip's power at or before being grasped, while keeping a distance and position where one would not be vulnerable to Judo's sweeping techniques. Interestingly the "Tekubi okoshi" or "rising hands" technique used in Judo to cause kuzushi is also seen as a type of "aiki'.

This is part of what I got from the seminar in relation to this article. I'm sure there will be a lot of questions that I cannot answer, but there it is.

I hope this helps to add some context to the article. Like I said, based on the seminar that delved deeper on the topic, the original article does not say much. However I understand that an updated article or other publication with the new findings should be released, though I'm not sure if in English.

Re: Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s

Larry

Thank you for posting what you learned at the seminar. Your explanations added important substance to the article by Shishida Sensei. Your post also serves as a caution concerning our interpretations of translated articles.