Look, I know I'm supposed to nutride Andy Hug because he did Karate and so do I, but he's ONE guy. That's like saying I should focus on spinning backfists and flying triangles because Genki Sudo can pull them off.

I REFUSE to be lectured by the WTF !!!!

Originally Posted by lifetime

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yrkoon9 again.

I am so going to use this hatchet kick!

Taikwido: I'm sorry that your sparring partners have led you to believe that you can sidekick them with precision accuracy in the hamstring while they pull off an un-set up axe kick. Perhaps you should find someone with better footwork? They need to be schooled..

Perhaps you don't even know what setup means. Setup= creating the opening for the kick NOT the process of getting your leg up and slamming it down.

A SETUP is faking, feinting, throwing a kick combination and launching the axe kick while the opponent moves back, gunning for the head. Not fast enough? Modify the axe kick to a front push kick. Exact same chambering forward movement.

Unless you're ATA or ITF or some other school of TKD that doesn't practice axe kicks against resisting, quickly moving opponents (although I thought you did WTF), you'll probably never see a fighter just stand there in kicking range, and kindly lift his leg to slam is straight down in front of you.

What you WILL see, is deceptive footwork, combinations, and a fighter launching the kick like a front push kick aiming for the head while moving quickly forward. If you think you're fast enough to side-kick it, you're wrong. Jamming is a lot more likely, I'll agree, however if the kick is set up properly you probably won't even see it coming.

That kick might work against some bouncing shmuck with his hands flapping limp at his sides, but it won't work on me.

And I'm not overly suprised that a WTF guy couldn't deliver a decent front leg side kick. After all, you have to stop bouncing long enough to start a technique!!!!

Um... we've all seen the axe kick work "taikwido" so its kind of stupid on your part to bad mouth its effectivity. I'm not talking about TKD either, I'm talking full contact. MY question was if it was a good high percentage technique or if it can be trained to be one.

In WTF TKD though, it's pretty much universally understood that there's no way to stand there and "take" an axe kick. As in, very few people try to jam it.

The reasoning behind this is that in TKD the knee is kept chambered so that the kick can be redirected if you see your opponent moving; which is why a lot of players are wary of jamming for fear of eating a foot in the face or a roundhouse or a front push. Therefore most people opt to move; the smart ones move sideways, newbies go with the gut reaction and move back.

You sortof use it as an intimidation tactic to force your opponent to move, and when you see what direction he moves in, you can follow up. You know you're free to pull a combination because your opponent most likely won't be countering hard or jamming. If you choose to open with a front leg axe, you can nail him if he doesn't move, or if he does you can follow up with a roundhouse.

Most likely though, if you get into a flurry with an opponent, or if you try for another kick and miss because your opponent moves straight back, you instantly follow up with a rear-leg axe kick/push kick. You can counter with it, but you'll need a strong base. Essentially the axe kick is thrown in any time you can force your opponent to move in a straight line, forwards or backwards.

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention, but this is important, is that the axe kick should always be powering forward and down. It's not about slamming the kick down, because that will unbalance you if you actually manage to connect with something (if you've ever hit a heavy bag with it you'll know). You need the forward momentum and the range to actually hit someone with reasonable force. If you slam the kick straight down you're not going to hit a moving target because the effective range is so short.

You chamber your axe kicks? I find it hard to get the proper height like that, plus its not quite as intimidating.

Ah, not quite a full chamber, but I try to keep the knee at least slightly bent. I find it a lot easier to power the kick forward if I do that. What I mean is, instead of keeping the leg straight, raising it, and bringing it down again, I raise the leg slightly bent and fully extend it while bringing it down (I'm NOT chambering the leg, doing a front snap kick and bringing it down, in case you're wondering). I find it faster, easier to get height and easier to sneak in on an unwary opponent that's coming in close.

EDIT: It's not quite an Andy Hug style "raise leg and slam down like a hammer" type of kick; I've modified it so I can track and follow an opponent while moving in TKD sparring. The Andy Hug style axe kick requires a lot of commitment to the kick while powering down and the recovery time is slower.

It's possibly just shitty technique on my part. I don't feel too comfortable committing fully to an axe kick unless I'm sure my opponent isn't going to move. For the most part I only complete the axe kick once I'm sure I get get him, otherwise I'll turn the kick into a front push or a crescent/roundhouse kick to the head.

Likewise, although when I do that I generally don't intend to connect with the axe kick anyway; I use it to scare the opponent back, gain distance, connecting is a bonus, but the real point is to score that second fast kick in.

When I'm serious about kicking the guy in the face though, I feint, fake, throw a combo to make him move back, and then track him with my last kick (axe/push/roundhouse).

Let's face it though, doing that is pretty much only good for TKD competition where you don't have to hit very hard. I can't see it working in a kickboxing fight unless you fully commit to it.

In which case I wish I was fighting you last night. Case in point about chambered kicks and versatility:

I was fighting a guy roughly around my height, maybe an inch taller. I got too close, he came forward with a chambered lead leg. Thought he was going to either axe kick or do a roundhouse to the body, so I closed in and he flicked it up to my head, and WHAM, catching me square in the face (not the helmet). Cut my nose, and put blood everywhere because both the nose and the cut were bleeding.

I take that as a very pertinent example as to why chambered kicks can be a good thing against an opponent that tries to jam you. If he had fully commit, I was close enough to jam him before he got his leg up. The fact that he chambered, snuck the knee up there and made sure I was fucked no matter what I did. If I tried to move out he could have powered forward with an axe kick, but if I tried to jam him, he'd kick me in the face.

EDIT: I'd LOVE to see taikwido or whatever try to side kick this guy in the leg. In fact I'm starting to doubt he've even TRIED this so-called move; it doesn't make sense. If a guy is axe-kicking from a nearly stationary position, as he suggested, then the guy was obviously not trying to hit him! He would have been too far away to reach taikwo with the axe kick if taikwido had time to see it coming, and THEN throw a side kick, INTO THE GUY'S HAMSTRING (which you obviously have NO SPACE to do if you're in Axe-kick range).

Well, yes ... I do ...

Originally Posted by Osiris

Oh please. You have no understanding of the kick. Just because you and yours suck with it doesn't mean eeryon else does. You also lack understanding of fundamental concepts such as setting up attacks. WHat the hell kind of half ass set up are they using that you can do a side kick?

Ok, look I thought about a response to all this.

First, I know all about setting up attacks. I know all about moving peoples guard around to set up attacks.

Yes, it IS possible to land an axe kick. Yes, from a spin in the second portion of a combo, it is more feasible. Yes, a low chamber will conceal the kick better and allow you to redirect better if your spacing is not correct, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF ...

The point is it's a low % scenario. You putting your foot way up in the air in anticipation of there being something there to bring it down onto. In most cases it will be air, thats good. In a LOT of cases it will be the guys shoulder or their hands after they've grabbed your leg in the air.

I am actually quite fond of a "push" kick which probably looks a lot like your chambered axe kick in the setup. I'm actually pretty fond of cresecent kicks as well (which can be turned into an axe if someone decides to duck.

Point here is your legs power stroke is on the upswing. Power comes from the upswing because you derive power from pushing or twisting off the ground. If you leave the ground, you lose both speed and power. The "down-swing" of an axe kick leaves the ground. There is a moment when you change from the up-swing to the down-swing. THAT is the moment that allows people to react easily to block or dodge this kick.

Is it possible to land an axe kick ... of course it is. And I myself have landed them plenty of times. The key is how many time you goof it and the effectiveness if the timing and spacing are off.

Is it more likely in TKD sparring ???? Yes, when your guard is hanging limply at your waste, it's far less likely that someone will get their hands up in time. In fact, it's far less likely that ANYTHING will be blocked in TKD sparring.

Is it possible to pre-empt kicks using your own kick??? Yep, I did it all the time. I learned these techniques after I was "schooled" by a 20 year veteran who fought in Karate tournaments. And if you work on your front leg sidekick long enough, you can knock someone on their ass as they chamber (or combo) just about any rear leg kick.

I guess I just like the Bill Wallace way. Simple!!! Focus on front leg kicks, they're quicker and higher %.

Choose your poison I guess.

As far as WTF sparring goes. Getting your hands up in the air. You play a "game" that feels and looks somewhat like fighting. Training is mental conditioning. You're responses are conditioned by what you do. When you're confronted by a self defense situation, you will mimic what you're conditioned to do (including hiding your "scoring area" by turning your back). Nasty habits are hard to break.