I played D&D years ago, early 90s, and I loved it. My wife asked me about it years ago, because she really didn't understand how it worked and what the big deal was all about. After I explained it to her, she looked at me with a really confused look for a second and asked "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.". I knew I married her for a reason.

I'll never find another group for gaming that fits me as well as that early one did, but I enjoyed the ever-lovin' shiat out of games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, so I can always hope that they come out with another one that follows D&D rules... I'm glad to see that the game is still going strong.

Really liking Pathfinder. Bought a transhuman SF one, Eclipse Phase, that looks like fun. I really wanted a SF one, but definitely didn't want to go Star Wars or Shadowrun. Eventually bought the Shadowrun book too, just for shiats and giggles.

Mikey1969:I played D&D years ago, early 90s, and I loved it. My wife asked me about it years ago, because she really didn't understand how it worked and what the big deal was all about. After I explained it to her, she looked at me with a really confused look for a second and asked "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.". I knew I married her for a reason.

I'll never find another group for gaming that fits me as well as that early one did, but I enjoyed the ever-lovin' shiat out of games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, so I can always hope that they come out with another one that follows D&D rules... I'm glad to see that the game is still going strong.

As someone who is running a pathfinder game this weekend, I can give you the obvious answer as to why people make fun of "them". It's any of the people who turn the game into an elaborate fantasy and start treating it as "serious shiat" or what have you. Coincidentally, you can make fun of anyone for how they have fun. There is literally not hobby that isn't at least a little absurd.

Boojum2k:Lonestar: give me doughnuts: 4E sucks.Stick with 3.5, or head right to Pathfinder.

DnD Next might be good. Might.

It might be, but Pathfinder still is, so Paizo will continue getting my money.

Paizo turned one of the greatest coups in board games' industry history. Wizards got them to make a bunch(expensive when you're paying people to make it) of 3.5 content right before they dumped 4.0. Paizo was slated to go out of business on their "pathfinder campaign setting," but they capitalized on nerd-rage and resold pathfinder as an actual improvement on 3.5, leaving wizards of the coast in the dust.

I still buy wizard products sometimes, like maps or minis, but their system bites, so paizo wins.

ikanreed:Mikey1969: I played D&D years ago, early 90s, and I loved it. My wife asked me about it years ago, because she really didn't understand how it worked and what the big deal was all about. After I explained it to her, she looked at me with a really confused look for a second and asked "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.". I knew I married her for a reason.

I'll never find another group for gaming that fits me as well as that early one did, but I enjoyed the ever-lovin' shiat out of games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, so I can always hope that they come out with another one that follows D&D rules... I'm glad to see that the game is still going strong.

As someone who is running a pathfinder game this weekend, I can give you the obvious answer as to why people make fun of "them". It's any of the people who turn the game into an elaborate fantasy and start treating it as "serious shiat" or what have you. Coincidentally, you can make fun of anyone for how they have fun. There is literally not hobby that isn't at least a little absurd.

The gaming hobbies suffer from the same thing all the other hobbies (sci-fi, comics, etc.) do; they attract a lot of people who don't know how to socialize. Consequently, it feels like you encounter a greater proportion of them than you do in the rest of your life. I know that neither RPGs nor historical wargaming are exclusively populated by anti-social douchebags who take this shiat way too seriously, but damn if I don't run into a lot of them at every con.

ikanreed:As someone who is running a pathfinder game this weekend, I can give you the obvious answer as to why people make fun of "them". It's any of the people who turn the game into an elaborate fantasy and start treating it as "serious shiat" or what have you

OK, that I'll grant you... Part of the reason that my group I played with was so good is that when it wasn't Thursday between 7-10 pm, the only talk about D&D was if someone couldn't make it or someone new wanted to join. Hell, I even waited to show off my 100-sided die when I bought it, even though I worked with my entire group, and we saw each other almost daily.

There is literally not hobby that isn't at least a little absurd.

Not sure what's absurd about people who do frame up restorations on classic cars, brew their own beer, or make their own furniture and other fine woodcraft, but I see where a lot of hobbies leave some room open for some joking.

Lonestar:give me doughnuts: 4E sucks.Stick with 3.5, or head right to Pathfinder.

DnD Next might be good. Might.

I've been playing with the "beta" version of D&D Next for a good while now, and we've been enjoying it. The group is fighter (me), monk, wizard, and cleric, and it's been a combination of funny-as-hell fumbles (accidentally backhanded the village priest, hit the monk in the chest with a torch while trying to light the oil behind him, etc) and amazing feats (spring attack + cleave to leap into the air and take out multiple stirges, melee with 3 dire bears ending in a double beheading) for me at least. It's MUCH less codified and limiting than 4e, as long as your GM has some imagination.

And this bit FTFA: "A striker like a barbarian is going to obliterate a controller like a wizard."

What kind of crack are they smoking? Maybe if the wizard is an idiot, or if they start the fight already toe-to-toe. Any caster going into pvp will prep the spells they need to keep other players away.

ikanreed:Paizo was slated to go out of business on their "pathfinder campaign setting," but they capitalized on nerd-rage and resold pathfinder as an actual improvement on 3.5, leaving wizards of the coast in the dust.

By far. I had the various 3.5 Monster Manuals, and the lamest monster in any Pathfinder Bestiary beats the hell out of the best in the MMs. The setting is amazing for being both incredibly broad, and yet all the mythological settings and eras fit together and don't feel like the mishmash they basically are. There's more creativity in one softcover sourcebook than WOTC showed the entire run of 3.X-4th.

I'm trying to figure out how to drop King Mogaru on my players at the end of ROTR, just as a huge finale. Might be easier to just go with Cthulu though.

/I really want to inflict a kaiju on them though//Next campaign will be my own creation, using some ideas from Second Darkness///Pathfinder Drow are evil. Drizzt on Golarian would have been executed when he was 12, and died finally when he reached maturity.

Mikey1969:I played D&D years ago, early 90s, and I loved it. My wife asked me about it years ago, because she really didn't understand how it worked and what the big deal was all about. After I explained it to her, she looked at me with a really confused look for a second and asked "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.". I knew I married her for a reason.

I'll never find another group for gaming that fits me as well as that early one did, but I enjoyed the ever-lovin' shiat out of games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, so I can always hope that they come out with another one that follows D&D rules... I'm glad to see that the game is still going strong.

Whatever, nerd.

/the only reason I'm not bigger into D&D or tabletop gaming is I didn't think I could talk my friends into going down that path with me during our formative years

Jgok:And this bit FTFA: "A striker like a barbarian is going to obliterate a controller like a wizard."

What kind of crack are they smoking? Maybe if the wizard is an idiot, or if they start the fight already toe-to-toe. Any caster going into pvp will prep the spells they need to keep other players away.

ikanreed:Boojum2k: Lonestar: give me doughnuts: 4E sucks.Stick with 3.5, or head right to Pathfinder.

DnD Next might be good. Might.

It might be, but Pathfinder still is, so Paizo will continue getting my money.

Paizo turned one of the greatest coups in board games' industry history. Wizards got them to make a bunch(expensive when you're paying people to make it) of 3.5 content right before they dumped 4.0. Paizo was slated to go out of business on their "pathfinder campaign setting," but they capitalized on nerd-rage and resold pathfinder as an actual improvement on 3.5, leaving wizards of the coast in the dust.

I still buy wizard products sometimes, like maps or minis, but their system bites, so paizo wins.

We're actually doing a Pathfinder game after this campaign ends, and it will be my first foray into the system. I'm looking forward to it. After that, we'll probably be doing a fantasy adaptation of Numenera.

Crudbucket:Mikey1969: I played D&D years ago, early 90s, and I loved it. My wife asked me about it years ago, because she really didn't understand how it worked and what the big deal was all about. After I explained it to her, she looked at me with a really confused look for a second and asked "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.". I knew I married her for a reason.

I'll never find another group for gaming that fits me as well as that early one did, but I enjoyed the ever-lovin' shiat out of games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, so I can always hope that they come out with another one that follows D&D rules... I'm glad to see that the game is still going strong.

Whatever, nerd.

/the only reason I'm not bigger into D&D or tabletop gaming is I didn't think I could talk my friends into going down that path with me during our formative years

I was 20-21, when we started... Like I said, I'll never really put together another good group like that, but it was fun, and it's a reason that I let the ComicCon kids and other Con folks have their fun.

I'm currently running a Pathfinder game in the Eberron setting, and it's working really well. I rather like the way Eberron works.. I feel they got dragons 'right', and it's fun having the PC's caught in the middle of the fifteen-friggen xanatos gambits that seem to be playing out in the setting.

My only concern is that, as I'm fairly new to DMing, I may be doing too much on the fly. I'm still having *some* difficulty figuring out how challenging certain things should be with regard to skill DC's, especially things like Knowledge Nature (... And what Wizards put out for Bear Lore in 4.0 doesn't help.)

As far as I can tell the goal for 4th edition was to have something that was rule-based and easy to adjudicate. You can tell the designers spent the last 10 years answering bizarre questions about how two Magic cards interacted. So they did everything with keywords and fixed rules so there would be no problems with interpretation.

Mikey1969:Not sure what's absurd about people who do frame up restorations on classic cars

I know of two kinds of car restorer. One mellow, the other absurd. I have been involved with a few restos and they all entailed pull everything apart cleaning and putting back together, you try to make everything clean and work correctly, all fun..... now a buddy of mine is doing a 73 Road Runner and he will go on and on and on about getting the correct grease pen for the assembly marks because this car was made on a tuesday and all tuesday marks on this side of the firewall are orange and the other side is burnt umber and how this car is one in 200 that had this compilation of option, it is rarer than rare. Nice guy but never ask about this project car.

gnosis301:Really liking Pathfinder. Bought a transhuman SF one, Eclipse Phase, that looks like fun. I really wanted a SF one, but definitely didn't want to go Star Wars or Shadowrun. Eventually bought the Shadowrun book too, just for shiats and giggles.

meanmutton:Has anyone mentioned that Pathfinder is the best version of D&D that's been created? Oh, they have? Well, then. Carry on!

Amen, Brother!

Anyone else see the Penny Arcade where Gabe's gaming group is so spoiled by 4E giving them everything they ever wanted all the time that Tycho suggests Pathfinder and then abuses them with it? I can't seem to find it in the archives. Pathfinder is like guilt-free sex wrapped in bacon, dipped in candy and served free on a bed of large-denomination cash with a side of pure love and respect! What kind of dark andterribleChristmas must 4E be that Pathfinder is some kind of twisted punishment by comparison?

Saiga410:Mikey1969: Not sure what's absurd about people who do frame up restorations on classic cars

I know of two kinds of car restorer. One mellow, the other absurd. I have been involved with a few restos and they all entailed pull everything apart cleaning and putting back together, you try to make everything clean and work correctly, all fun..... now a buddy of mine is doing a 73 Road Runner and he will go on and on and on about getting the correct grease pen for the assembly marks because this car was made on a tuesday and all tuesday marks on this side of the firewall are orange and the other side is burnt umber and how this car is one in 200 that had this compilation of option, it is rarer than rare. Nice guy but never ask about this project car.

LOL, I could see that becoming an obsession... I'm not always great at follow through, so I wouldn't do something like a car restoration, but if I did it AND happened to have a car that I could get as possibly close to original as possible, I would probably be like this. One way to deal with Obsessive potential is not to put myself into situations where it could be a factor.

Mikey1969: "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.".

We're talking about 4th edition here, though. The one where all of the roleplay elements were all stripped out and combat was turned into a CCG / board game, and even that was stripped down to a handful of predictable variations.

... which, to be fair, is what first edition was, too, because first edition was basically taking a standard war-game / strategy game and running a "hero map" where each player controlled only one unit with a slightly higher level of complexity. The role-play stuff was just players messing around, it wasn't codified into the game in any real formal way until 2nd edition (aka "Advanced" D&D, the first really popular edition).

But as implied above, AD&D was way the hell more popular than first ed., which you'd think might have hinted to the developers that the changes to 4th might be over-correcting from the excessive complexity of 3rd.

I actually agree with TFA here. 4th is a really shiatty roleplaying game, but it would make an excellent tabletop deathmatch board game. Do nothing but combat and you're sitting right on the system's sole strong point.

meanmutton:Has anyone mentioned that Pathfinder is the best version of D&D that's been created? Oh, they have? Well, then. Carry on!

Nah. The best d20 system game is Spycraft, by far. Or, if you need to stay in the fantasy genre, Iron Heroes.

Felgraf:My only concern is that, as I'm fairly new to DMing, I may be doing too much on the fly. I'm still having *some* difficulty figuring out how challenging certain things should be with regard to skill DC's, especially things like Knowledge Nature (... And what Wizards put out for Bear Lore in 4.0 doesn't help.)

There are three ways to handle knowledge skills:

1. As-written, once you have about ten ranks in a class knowledge skill, you can pass essentially any knowledge nature check to identify something or know facts about typical behavior of any natural critter. This actually is fine, just let 'em automatically succeed and stick the points somewhere else. More different skills on players can make the characters more individualized and the game more fun.

2. Make the knowledge skills an alternate way to complete tasks sometimes, and use the DC of the base task plus 5 or so, e.g. defusing a trap made out of vines is DC 21 for the rogue, but the druid can figure out that this vine has a particular brittle point around the base of the leaves with know: nature 26 and poke it to disable the trap.

3. The "fark it" method: just use challenge rating. Need a widely-known fact about a setting or encounter? Difficulty CR +5. Need some sort of specialized knowledge? CR+10. Obscure facts that give a big clue to the plot? CR+15 Trying to sabotage your entire mystery by making their character know something that breaks the plot? CR+25.

1. As-written, once you have about ten ranks in a class knowledge skill, you can pass essentially any knowledge nature check to identify something or know facts about typical behavior of any natural critter. This actually is fine, just let 'em automatically succeed and stick the points somewhere else. More different skills on players can make the characters more individualized and the game more fun.

2. Make the knowledge skills an alternate way to complete tasks sometimes, and use the DC of the base task plus 5 or so, e.g. defusing a trap made out of vines is DC 21 for the rogue, but the druid can figure out that this vine has a particular brittle point around the base of the leaves with know: nature 26 and poke it to disable the trap.

3. The "fark it" method: just use challenge rating. Need a widely-known fact about a setting or encounter? Difficulty CR +5. Need some sort of specialized knowledge? CR+10. Obscure facts that give a big clue to the plot? CR+15 Trying to sabotage your entire mystery by making their character know something that breaks the plot? CR+25.

That is a helpful way to look at it, thanks. I think I'm going to go for method 2 and 3 for the most part.

I admit I'm also really fortunate in that I seem to have really good players. Some are new, and some are really experienced, and... the really experienced ones have offered to create *new characters* because they realized they are WAY over powered compared to the rest of the group. (One of them really liked the flavor of the synthesist summoner, and has tried really, really, REALLY hard to not make a stupidly overpowered broken one. ... Then he discovered he can do 60 damage in 1 round of combat at level 6, and realized that he has *failed*. Thankfully, A) this is Eberron so Psionics exists ,B) Psionics ties into my plot *really well*, C) Aegis is simillar in theme to Summoner, and D) Psionics seems semi-balanced in Pathfinder.

Jim_Callahan:We're talking about 4th edition here, though. The one where all of the roleplay elements were all stripped out and combat was turned into a CCG / board game, and even that was stripped down to a handful of predictable variations.

... which, to be fair, is what first edition was, too, because first edition was basically taking a standard war-game / strategy game and running a "hero map" where each player controlled only one unit with a slightly higher level of complexity. The role-play stuff was just players messing around, it wasn't codified into the game in any real formal way until 2nd edition (aka "Advanced" D&D, the first really popular edition).

But as implied above, AD&D was way the hell more popular than first ed., which you'd think might have hinted to the developers that the changes to 4th might be over-correcting from the excessive complexity of 3rd.

I actually agree with TFA here. 4th is a really shiatty roleplaying game, but it would make an excellent tabletop deathmatch board game. Do nothing but combat and you're sitting right on the system's sole strong point.

Yeah, I never played with any kind of character/gamepiece, and we didn't play on a grid or anything... Too bad to hear about 4th edition, at least the way the game is structured, it doesn't prevent everyone from playing the version they all agree on. Well, except for new modules coming out, I guess.

Jim_Callahan:Mikey1969: "Then why do people make so much fun of people who play? It seems to me like the level of imagination and concentration is more than you need for any video game. I'm actually impressed.".

We're talking about 4th edition here, though. The one where all of the roleplay elements were all stripped out and combat was turned into a CCG / board game, and even that was stripped down to a handful of predictable variations.

... which, to be fair, is what first edition was, too, because first edition was basically taking a standard war-game / strategy game and running a "hero map" where each player controlled only one unit with a slightly higher level of complexity. The role-play stuff was just players messing around, it wasn't codified into the game in any real formal way until 2nd edition (aka "Advanced" D&D, the first really popular edition).

But as implied above, AD&D was way the hell more popular than first ed., which you'd think might have hinted to the developers that the changes to 4th might be over-correcting from the excessive complexity of 3rd.

I actually agree with TFA here. 4th is a really shiatty roleplaying game, but it would make an excellent tabletop deathmatch board game. Do nothing but combat and you're sitting right on the system's sole strong point.

TheOtherGuy:Anyone else see the Penny Arcade where Gabe's gaming group is so spoiled by 4E giving them everything they ever wanted all the time that Tycho suggests Pathfinder and then abuses them with it? I can't seem to find it in the archives.

IronJelly:Jgok: And this bit FTFA: "A striker like a barbarian is going to obliterate a controller like a wizard."

What kind of crack are they smoking? Maybe if the wizard is an idiot, or if they start the fight already toe-to-toe. Any caster going into pvp will prep the spells they need to keep other players away.

How much have you used 4th edition?

I ran a 2-year campaign, and played in several others. Wizard, shaman, psion, and rogue. I've also done some pvp as a wizard. If you're talking low-level, the striker usually wins... But who's going to pvp with level 1 characters?

This is just with PH1 and Arcane Power. If you allow mongoose's "quintessential wizard", it's even more unbalanced (mind assault is a great at-will, strike and run, fierce will, nightmarish slumber, spinning staffs, reactive displacement, steel skin, etc).

The wizard is all about keeping the enemy away while doing damage. It depends on luck, but everything in D&D does. Know your opponent: most of those spells go against Will & Reflex. Each round is effectively "hamper your enemy, then run away". As long as you can get outside the move range of a melee opponent, they're fairly limited in what they can do. You'd have more trouble with a ranger than with a barbarian, IMO.

Now, all this falls by the wayside if you're dropped into a bare arena that's only 30 feet across. After all, you can't use a bow in a boxing ring. In that case, melee wins almost every time... but it would also be a boring fight. The arena needs to be interesting and fairly big, with obstacles and difficult terrain. The melee character needs a way to approach the ranged guy while taking cover, and the ranged character needs room to maneuver.

I actually find designing a balanced arena to be pretty fun on its own... incorporating elevation changes, trees, ruined walls, water, etc can be challenging. Lately I've been working on a Minecraft FTB arena (modified Magic World 2 pack), and balancing things between AM2, Thaumcraft, Blood Magic, etc. It's been quite fun, and there's enough cover to where melee characters can still compete.

I love all editions of D&D. Having said that, I don't need Pathfinder. Not one single 3rd edition book exploded in flames when Pathfinder came out. I'll play D&D 3e. (Eberron is one of my favorite settings.)

Paizo did a great job in getting suckers to buy 3e again right after they swore they won't buy "the same system all over again from scratch" a second time. 3.0. Then 3.5. "Never again! What? Pathfinder! I'm in!"

Was. Then 3rd came out and streamlined so much unnecessary garbage like THAC0, some rolls needing to be high vs some needing to be low, restrictions on what race could do what class. Hell, I look at my 1st edition AD&D book now and it's cluttered, convoluted, and overly complex.

About the only thing 3/3.5 got wrong was making Half-elves worthless. And that can just be solved by implementing the Pathfinder Half-Elf rules.

I'm stoked for Next, though - it's got the streamlined mechanics from later editions without sacrificing the feel of how characters worked in older editions.

I'm an AEG fanboy - I loved everything L5R (hell, I bought the L5R pseudo-pog game), and Spycraft was absolutely brilliant. It's light-years ahead of D20 Modern; I don't know who thought "The Strong Hero", "The Wise Hero", etc. was a good idea. But I've had tons of fun with both Spycraft D20.

I've also loved Star Wars D20 Revised (not Saga, it's underwhelming). Star Wars replaces the magic system with a Force Skill system that integrates well with the rest of the rules.

I love Pathfinder, but the problem lies that I have a friend that is enamored with D&D next, and tells constantly that PF is 'broken at its core', and he points out another friend in the group that loves making overpowered characters.

I actually love PF, and I love how it plays, however, on a bad day, I prefer to not run anything because on one hand I have one player that will keep saying 'Well in X system this works even better, whereas here it's all clunky and not cool', and on the other side is 'That's the BBEG? I grapple him, end of story'.

Still, I love Pathfinder. And the old Deadlands: Hell on Earth. nWod is cool, and D&D Next looks interesting.

UNC_Samurai:I'm an AEG fanboy - I loved everything L5R (hell, I bought the L5R pseudo-pog game), and Spycraft was absolutely brilliant. It's light-years ahead of D20 Modern; I don't know who thought "The Strong Hero", "The Wise Hero", etc. was a good idea. But I've had tons of fun with both Spycraft D20.

I love L5R. I'll be trying to get another game of that going soon. So much fun. Spycraft, I've only played a little bit of, and haven't run it. Seemed good to me. I really liked some of the ideas they had, like the focus points or whatever they called them. Those bonus dice...

I have most of the books for this, but I have yet to play it. Looks like it would be just about the perfect thing for running a Dark Tower inspired game. I've run original Deadlands several times, and had an absolute blast. Might actually get the chance to be just a player in someone's Deadlands Reloaded game. We'll see how that goes. Since I'm freelancing for a company that does mostly Savage Worlds stuff, I really should try playing the system...