TV Interview, "real women", part 1, Los Angeles (United States), October 11, 1993
[Voice off]: Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, the most important spiritual figure in the world today. Please join us on a special program of “Audrey Hope’s real women”
Interviewer: My name is Audrey Hopes and welcome to ‘Real women”. It is a great honour to be in the presence of the most important spiritual figure in the world today, Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi.
Shri Mataji is a world leader and has travelled the globe many times over to give Self Realization to thousands.
Self Realization is the pure connexion with our spiritual nature and is the only hope for a stable society. Today is that day prophesized by the saints.
Once you may have needed to travel to the Himalayas or to meditate on a mountain for twenty years, but now, through the grace of Shri Mataji, there is a simple way to achieve that connexion and that is through Sahaja Yoga. Shri Mataji founded Sahaja Yoga as a method for human beings to experience the truth within and to become your own master. Shri Mataji is a mother and a grandmother, a true role model for all human beings.
Shri Mataji was a spiritual guide for Mahatma Gandhi. She accepts no money for Realization and she says the truth cannot be paid for.
She joins us after her fourth visit to the United Nations and before her journey to Washington DC.
Shri Mataji is known all over the world. She is less known in the United States. Well, it is here, in the mist of media and its power, where she is needed the most.
Shri Mataji, we are deeply honoured to have you here, thank you.
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.
Interviewer: I’d like to begin by speaking about Self Realization and to tell the viewers what Self Realization is.
Shri Mataji: Within yourself lies a power which is called in Sanskrit language as Kundalini, which is in the sacrum bone. That means definitely, that the Greeks knew this was a sacred bone where that power was lying. This is the power which connects you to the All-pervading Power.
Now the truth is that we are not this body, this mind, this ego, these conditionings. But you are the pure Spirit because you say: “My ego, my body”, you are the pure Spirit, this is one truth about yourself. Another truth is that there is the All-pervading Power of divine love. It’s called by various names. You see these beautiful flowers; it’s a miracle itself. And who runs our heart? We never inquire, we don’t find by doctors will tell you it’s the autonomous nervous system. But who is this “auto”?
So these two things we have to realize that we are the pure Spirit and there is an All-pervading Power of divine love. Power of love, not of hatred.
Interviewer: How does one receive Self Realization? Does a person have to give up their personal life or self problems before they can attain this?
Shri Mataji: It’s very simple, that within our being, a complete machinery is already made through our evolutionary process. And we have seven centres, main seven centres placed on our central nervous system, or we can call it on the parasympathetic and ultimately, this power raises, penetrates through these six centres only, ultimately, pierces through the fontanel bone area and connects you to that All-pervading Power.
While it is travelling through these charkas or the centres or the energy centres we can call them, it nourishes them. Not only it nourishes, it integrates them and it enlightens them.
Most of the problems, global problems, are because of human beings. And most of the human problems are because of these centres. Because these centres cater to our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual needs. So once these centres are out of gear, we have all these problems whether on an individual basis or on a collective basis.
So when this connects to the All-pervading Power, then you achieve a new state of awareness. So there’s a breakthrough in your evolution.
Evolution process is spontaneous. We have not paid for it, we didn’t do anything, we are becoming human beings. So now, the last one, why should we pay for it? Or why should we do anything about it?
Interviewer: Does one need blind faith or can this be approached as you say, or how is it approached like a science?
Shri Mataji: It’s just a living process. You try to understand this way, that this Mother earth is there. What we have to do is to put one seed in it and the seed sprouts. How? Because it is built in, in the seed to sprout and built in, in the Mother Earth to make it sprout. It’s as simple as that.
Interviewer: We Americans are very into scientific proof. [Laughter]
And you describe Sahaja Yoga as an essence of all religions and not just a religion. How is Sahaja Yoga different?
Shri Mataji: “Saha” means “with”. “Ja” means born. Born with you is the right to have this union, the Yoga. That is Sahaja Yoga.
By this union, you realize that all the religions were flowers born on one tree of spirituality. But we have plucked the flowers and now we are fighting with the dead flowers. If there is one God then why could we-how could we fight in the name of God?
This is the philosophy of Gandhiji also. We also followed the same philosophy not only but, as we worship all the incarnations and all the prophets and all messiahs, in the same way, he said we have to worship them. It’s not just to show respect but you must worship the same way. That is Sahaj religion which encompasses all the religions and also respects because in essence all of them are the same. And if there is one singular message in all these religions is that: “Seek your Self to be born again”. That’s the message in all the religions.
Interviewer: So where has the religion gone wrong? We are- let’s take Christianity for example.
Shri Mataji: Christianity has gone wrong at a very early stage I should say, where it was taken over by Paul. I asked my father when I first saw his name in the Bible, I said: “Who is this Mister Paul?” He said: “He is a squatter. He had nothing to do with Christ. He never met Christ. He had actually killed so many Christians, he has killed the disciple of Christ called Steven. But being a bureaucrat, he thought it was a good platform to jump onto the platform of Christianity. And he had to have help from somebody, one of the disciples. The worse disciple of Christ was Peter, so he grabbed Peter and has written the Bible”.
Despite all the things they have done, that Christ told Peter that “Satan will catch hold of you’ it’s clearly said. Now this Mister Peter and Mister Paul put together tried to spoil all the great work of our Lord Jesus-Christ because, first of all, the worst for women. Paul hated women from his heart. And that’s why even for Christ’s Mother, he uses a word like “woman”. To us, she is a Goddess. She is a Mahalakshmi, to Sahaja Yogis. But to him, she was just a woman. And the way he has conducted the whole thing has brought such a disaster on the women of the West. Even now, up till now, women are treated as something very low for spirituality.
But in India, a woman is the shakti, is the power. Another great mistake they have committed is in describing the Trinity. We have God the father, God the son and the third one is a Holy Ghost, is a dove. How can you have a father and a son and no mother?
But there is a Primordial Mother which was accepted by all the religions even the Jews had it. Greeks called it Athena. “Atha” in Sanskrit means “primordial”. Athena. In India, this is called as Adi Shakti. In every religion, they had this Mother who was the Primordial Mother.
So he cancelled all the powers of a mother and that is how the women have a very inferiority complex, I think, or insecurity in the Western world.
Because they think we have to, all the time, be apologetical [unsure] and we should always serve the men and we should sell our body, we should make ourselves very attractive, otherwise, we have no place! And that is how the morality of women is shattered.
Interviewer: I wanted to use a quote from that [pensée? French word?] in "Timothy 1" to really emphasise this point. It says in the Bible, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not present a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. [The New Testament, 1 Timothy 2:9-14]
Shri Mataji: That’s also a mistake about Adam and Eve also. But that, I’ll deal later on. But a simple thing is that it was a complete attack on womanhood. And that’s how women have accepted- imagine such a developed country like England, was discussing till yesterday, whether a woman should preach or not.
Yes! I mean, now, with great difficulty, some people have agreed that women should preach.
I just don’t understand. In India, a woman is very powerful. She doesn’t care for her husband if he goes after another woman. She says: “Alright, he’s sinful, let him go to Hell. I don’t care.” She stands on her own merit on her chastity. She doesn’t bother.
Now, the whole situation is so bad, that women have to be, all the time, trying to, you see, expose their body also. I haven’t seen a single film in which a man is exposed. It’s always the women [who] must be exposed as if men are some Sanctum sanctorum.
I feel the slavery of women is much more in the West than in India.
Interviewer: And how about the Koran? I’m speaking about the Iranians. I know you did a programme this week and it was a very important programme. And I’d like to talk about how the Iranian people have misinterpreted Mohamed and the effects on their society and the importance of their changing for women. [unsure]
Shri Mataji: Yes. Even Muhammad Sahib, you see, he respected women so much. You know, they used to have wars. They were tribes. They were tribal people. It was only Muhammad Sahib who could take birth in those horrible Arabs. And he found that so many men, young men were killed. So he said: “Alright. If there are not young men, let the old men marry, even young girl. It doesn’t matter but marry. Even if they have to marry five times, marry so that they do not become prostitutes. Just to respect their chastity he prescribed this thing but it is not compulsory that you should marry five times. You see, we have horrible things in India. A man marries four times, has eight children each time because they believe that but that democracy [demography?], they’ll be powerful.
Then, after some time, they divorce their wives by saying three times: “Talaq, talaq, talaq.” [repudiation].
Now, these women are with so many children, are just left on the street. And if you see them you’ll think that this is worse than Somalia.
He respected women! Not only, he told his wife that: “You are going to work out- Aicha” he told her: “You are going to work out something against the religion.” And really it was wrong on her because his own daughter, as you know her name was Fatima, stood up and said that: “This, never Muhammad Sahib has said it.” But this Abu-Bakr is a fellow who just took the platform, as it is, I should say, instead of his own son in law, Hazrat Ali, who was a great Realized soul. And he just completely changed the ideas about women which Fatima was going to tell.
So there were big wars called Karbala in which two children of Fatimabi were killed, Hazrat Ali was also killed and there two groups which were formed, one is Shia and Sunni.
But Shias also don’t understand that they have to respect their women because Fatimabi herself was a, not only a saint but an incarnation. She was a Goddess.
Interviewer: How has the media affected our view of women today?
Shri Mataji: In the Western media I must say that women are used just to lure or some sort of a very low type of human beings I should say. Men are not sex points. They are the Spirit. They are reduced to this sex point by Freud. And Freud was like a Christ here once upon a time. Now of course, after so many years, I said this at least twenty years back. But now it is appearing, many- I’ve seen some books like “Fall of Freudian Empire” “Freudian Freud”, so many books are coming now! Already all the harm has been done! Human beings are reduced to a sex point now by media and women who are very cheap who can expose their body and can sell their chastity are regarded as great heroines. This is what? It’s the situation of the media that is today.
Interviewer: I heard you have even said that Freud can only prosper in America.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Interviewer: Freud can only prosper in America.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Interviewer: You said that.
Shri Mataji: It’s a fact.
He was born in Austria and when I talked against Freud they all clapped. They were very happy I said so because they were quite ashamed about him. But even in Austria, you find so many prostitutes on the streets, standing all the while. But here, at least, there it is, the housewives are housewives.
Here, even housewife has to dress up in such a way that she should be like a prostitute. Why should you do that? You must have your self-respect.
Interviewer: How is this special time for women?
Shri Mataji: I call it this a Blossom time because I say they are many flowers, so many some of them are on the Earth and they are to become now fruits. But it’s called as Qiyamah in the Koran, meaning the Resurrection time.
Even in the Indian scriptures, we have this Resurrection time and by many astrologers, thousands of years back, it was predicted that such and such time will come. And also in the Bible, it is the Last Judgement.
There’s another stupid idea which we find in Bible and also in Koran, which is very stupid, and I think also- I don’t know about the Torah, but they said that there is also the same idea previously – that, at the time of Resurrection our dead bodies will come out of the graves and then they’ll ascend. Now, tell Me what is left in the grave of the dead bodies? It is so absurd, it’s so illogical.
Actually, in that way, I would say Indian scriptures said the correct thing that at this time of Kali Yuga all the souls which are lost, all the souls who want their Realization, all the souls who have been thinking of God and seeking God all over the world, will be reborn. That’s why we have a population problem. That is why all kinds of horrible people are also born. In this time, about twenty years back, your media was much better. They didn’t show such horrible scenes. I mean they must show bedroom’s scenes, what is the need? Bathroom scenes. I mean, if somebody comes into your house, do you take them to your bedroom, into your bathroom or you keep them in the dining room? I mean, it’s private life. They have no respect for privacy.
Now, you see, this kind of funny idea that we are going to get out of the graves and all that is still lingering in the mind of many ignorant Christians and also Muslims. One Bosnia fellow met Me, he was Muslim. I asked him: “Why were you dying there, what was the need to die?” He said: “Because if we die now in the name of God, we’ll be resurrected.”
[Interviewer is laughing.]
Shri Mataji: I mean it is relevant from the idea of Bible, you see? So this is what it is that these ideas are to be put right.
In the west, you see, we have Christianity, we have other religions. But, I would say that the roots of the spiritual knowledge, it’s more in India. I’m myself born in a Christian religion. But the roots about it, the explanation about it, is much better discovered in India because it’s an ancient country which has been all the times seeking, seeking, for thousands of years.
Now the system that is Sahaja Yoga as you mentioned is not mine. It’s an ancient system. But we had this system in the Nath Panthis, they call it, that they were in the centre. And one master will have only one disciple, this was the tradition. So there were very few people who got their Realization. Shri Rama’s father-in-law’s guru was Ashtavakra. He has written about sahaj. But he has just described what happens when you get into the state of Spirit. This father-in-law, Janaka, gave Realization to only one person Natchiketa according to the tradition.
But, on the twelve century, there was a great poet in India, in Maharashtra, born as Gnyaneshwara, who asked his guru, his own brother that: “Let me also tell about this.” He said: "All right”. He permitted. So in his Gnyaneshwari which is just the explanation of Gita, he has clearly said in the sixth chapter about Kundalini, how she rises, how she gives you Realization and everything. But those people who were in charge of religion, as usual, didn’t know how to do it. So what they did, they said:” This is "nisidhat" [forbid] - means, cancelled- you don’t read this sixth chapter.” So nobody would read that chapter. That’s how it went into background!
So I would say, after that, many great saints like Guru Nanak, Kabir, Sukarama, Ramdas, in the sixteen century, did a great work of Kundalini [inaudible]. Even in the Bible, it is: “I will appear before you as tongues of flames.” “Tree of life” so many things are described!
But in the little time that they had, they could not explain so much. Now, these people have talked about Kundalini and said about it. If I have done any work, is this, that by studying through human beings, I met many people because my father was a very social man and my husband was in a position where I met many people. I studied human beings and I found out a method by which you can now give a-mass Realization.
In Russia, in Bulgaria, Romania, we always have people in the stadium, not less than sixteen thousand, and they all get their Realization! And they are very sensitive to spirituality and they stick to it. None of these false gurus could stick there.
Interviewer: Psychics, the issue of psychics, it’s so popular here! And we are very-it’s very dangerous. Could you explain what can happen?
Shri Mataji: Ah. Americans are very simple people I must say. First time I came for parapsychology, they took Me into a hall of parapsychology. They told Me: "You are dealing with dead spirits!" And they were very angry with Me. He says that: "You come as guest and why do crusade? [unsure]." I said: "I have to tell you the truth, I am your Mother. I’m not your guest, you didn’t pay for Me. I came on my own, coming on my vehicle and going on my vehicle", while they made money out of Me. So, they don’t like it.
When I first came here, when I told them that: "These are all spirits and psychic things and don’t do it”, they didn’t like it.
Interviewer: How can we know of false guru?
Shri Mataji: First of all, you cannot pay for your Self Realization! Or for any knowledge. You must value your life. If you don’t value your life, then you’ll go to all such stupid people and you’ll waste your time. No, if you value you life, if you value your money for example, you’ll first find out what it this you are buying. First of all you must see the disciples, what are they doing, what is their style what are they gaining, what is their knowledge. First the disciples! Most of them are recluses.
Anything which is sort of fashionable, people want to do. You talk of individuality, all right? Any entrepreneur, now they just started a six inches of skirt, everybody wears six inches of skirt! Otherwise you are not “in”, means in the lunatic asylum.
So like that, these people are good at big advertisement, marketing, writing books, all falsehood! You believe them because they have a knack, advertisement is the main thing which has led to this kind of things and Americans are really very sensitive to advertising. If anything is advertised, they think it’s great.
Also I was surprised when I came here, they asked Me – in Boston, I remember- they asked Me: "How many Roll Royce you have?", in the television. I said: "I don’t have!" They said then: "You don’t make any money." "No." I said: "I don’t make any money." "So there’s no business." "No", I said "no". "Then we are not interested." They wouldn’t have Me on the television. I mean you are so money oriented that tomorrow you’ll purchase God also I think.
So, first of all, you cannot pay for it.
Second, you must see the disciples, what sort of disciples they are, what they are, how much they are talking about the knowledge. They must have the knowledge. Now you know very well, and people can find out that in Sahaja Yoga people just get Realization and start giving Realizations to others. So many diseases have been cured. It’s a fact, there’s a book written.
Interviewer: So we are in a new stage, a new evolution.
Shri Mataji: Of course, this is the time, if you miss it, you’ll miss it for ever! Because, you see, otherwise, you see in America, people are getting destroyed from within. All kinds of diseases, psychological problems, this, that, stress, this, that, all kind of things are going on.
Now, to stop it, better ascend above all these things.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi.
Please join us for part two of this special program on “Audrey Hope’s real women”.