If you go back to the original thread on this; this issue had nothing to do with the cancellation of the order with Boeing.
The issue that caused the cancellation surrounded work rules and other conditions that the pilots and AC could not agree upon.

Not again. I think we are dommed to never see the 777 painted in AC colors. Heres an Idea, why not fire all pilots who dont want to agree to a unified list and replace them with new hires from the US, there are a lot of pilots in the US unemployed.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 1):If you go back to the original thread on this; this issue had nothing to do with the cancellation of the order with Boeing.

Actually, this issue had a significant impact on the vote by the AC pilots component of the union with respect to the proposed new aircraft. They were mad about the seniority issue and used the aircraft issues to vent. Not they were totally happen with the proposal, but it was recommended for a vot by membership from the negotiating team. Now the two issues are separated: Aircraft issues - binding arbitration; Seniority issues - mediation.

This is actually old news, the former CAI pilots said from day 1 of the mediation announcement that they saw no reason to re-open this, it has now been made official.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 2):Not again. I think we are dommed to never see the 777 painted in AC colors. Heres an Idea, why not fire all pilots who dont want to agree to a unified list and replace them with new hires from the US, there are a lot of pilots in the US unemployed.

Yeah get rid of those that don't ride on the bandwagon. I don't agree with the ex-canadian pilots yet suggesting to fire them is simply childish. Why should we hire pilots from the US? There's a lot of unemployed pilots here too. I don't see any US airline hiring Canadians...

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 4):Why should we hire pilots from the US? There's a lot of unemployed pilots here too. I don't see any US airline hiring Canadians...

I assumed that there were not that many unemployed Canadian pilots, becouse Canadian airlines seem to be doing rather well recently. Sorry if I offended you. Hire new Canadian pilots, and when your out of them, come to the US to get the remaining.

I had understood from the original release that AC and the union had AGREED on binding arbitration in respect of the 777/787 order issues and had also agreed to mediation on the ongoing seniority issues old AC vs CP pilots.

Is this report now saying that the mediation in rleation to the seniority issues is off the rails or the agreed upon binding arbitration process with respect to the new wide bodies is off?

I try to stay objective as possible but if a disgruntled minority group can derail an airlines hugely important fleet renewal plans and jeopardize its busines model and future plans--this is an appalling example of how creeping Canadian socialism has permitted the Polit-Unions in Canada to wield WAY too much power.

I had understood from the original release that AC and the union had AGREED on binding arbitration in respect of the 777/787 order issues and had also agreed to mediation on the ongoing seniority issues old AC vs CP pilots.

Is this report now saying that the mediation in rleation to the seniority issues is off the rails or the agreed upon binding arbitration process with respect to the new wide bodies is off?

I try to stay objective as possible but if a disgruntled minority group can derail an airlines hugely important fleet renewal plans and jeopardize its busines model and future plans--this is an appalling example of how creeping Canadian socialism has permitted the Polit-Unions in Canada to wield WAY too much power.

How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?

You're only going to get a migraine trying to follow this blow by blow. Suffice it to say there is a union, and within that union there is a faction - with its own steering committee and budget - representing former Canadian Airlines employees, and an unofficial faction representing disgrunted Air Canada pilots who feel they were wronged in the merger process. The union has tended to side with the larger AC group, but there is no reconciling the different points of view on the seniority issue. The 777 issue is between the company and the union. The two factions within the union have no say on the issue, as the company and union have agreed to a process whereby any outstanding issues related to the Boeing buy will be sent to binding arbitration. The seniority dispute between the factions is following (or not following, depending on your POV) a different course and may or may not upset the status quo.

With regard to the 777/787, there will be binding arbitration. This is a process when a proposal is voted down, as it was several months ago, as we all know. The result of this arbitration will set the working conditions, pay rates, and training concessions with regard to the introduction of this aircraft. Remember though, the existing pilot contract would allow the introduction of any new aircraft, and AC could have ordered any aircraft they wanted ... However, they wanted further concessions from the pilots, thus the arbitration.

In addition to the binding arbitration of the 777/787, AC has hired a mediator to look at a seniority award settled in 2003 between the AC pilots and the CP pilots. This seniority award, termed the "Keller Award" was "final and binding" in 2003. In no legal way can it be overturned or changed, unless both parties (AC and CP) agree. Even though the Keller award favoured the AC pilots with seniority, etc, it was the CP pilots that have been trying to put it behind them and will not start the process all over again, thus will not participate in the mediation. This was reiterated in a press release today.

Understand, that is the mediation only with regard to seniority issues. As far as the 777/787 arbitration goes, it is still planned, and the aircraft are still coming.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 8):And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline from that country?

Back on topic, I still can't figure out what the article is alluding to:

Quote:"Former Canadian Airline Pilots maintain there are other means available in the collective agreement to resolve the Boeing purchase issue," the group said.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 9):This seniority award, termed the "Keller Award" was "final and binding" in 2003. In no legal way can it be overturned or changed, unless both parties (AC and CP) agree. Even though the Keller award favoured the AC pilots

That's not the way I remember it. It's the Original AC pilots faction that opposed it on he grounds that it favoured the ex CAIL pilots because they had a higher proportion of senior pilots than the AC group. This would result in the bottom of the seniority list consisting mostly of AC pilots.

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 11):That's not the way I remember it. It's the Original AC pilots faction that opposed it on he grounds that it favoured the ex CAIL pilots because they had a higher proportion of senior pilots than the AC group. This would result in the bottom of the seniority list consisting mostly of AC pilots.

Not so.

While I don't endorse this site, or any for that matter. If you look at this website, http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca and look at most of the statistics, you will see that the Keller Award clearly favours the ex AC pilots.

However, as I said before, the exCP pilots reject the seniority mediation, but this press release has NO bearing on the 777/787 arbitration, nor the order for new aircraft.

Leave the juvenile "my country's airline's more profitable than yours" jibberish for a forum of children. I didn't raise it, and hate to dignify it by responding, but I am indeed Canadian--not American, not Venezuelan---so leave your typical reactionary canadiana attitude in wanting to blame some other country out of this--it has nothing to do with that.

I am very pleased AC is profitable and hope it becomes more so.

My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 8):And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

AC seems to be doing the right thing... Perhaps what they've should have done all along... Separate the Boeing purchase plans and the Pilots Union issues. It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes. At that point, AC needs to do what's in it's best interests and tell those pilots to accept the mediated terms or find another job.

AC seems to be doing the right thing... Perhaps what they've should have done all along... Separate the Boeing purchase plans and the Pilots Union issues. It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes. At that point, AC needs to do what's in it's best interests and tell this pilots to accept the mediated terms or find another job.

Regards,
Sal

I think a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the reason the ex CP pilots are against re-opening this is that is was all settled with a supposedly legally binding agreement two years ago .(see below) - why should they be prepared to re-negotiate because one of the parties now doesn't want to accept the ruling that they all agreed back in 2003 would be binding . As far as I can see it is not the ex CP pilots who are in the wrong - it is some of their "original AC" colleagues who are trying to re-open a closed case .

Quoting CayMan (Reply 14):My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.

THANK you, great comment. Welcome to my RR list

The thruth is, that if this were any other country, especially any latin american or asian country, you either WORK with the company, or get fired. A lot of people out there would just love to have any pilot job, these guys have it and will do anything to get more and more power, even if it means running the airline to the ground.

Boeing like AC has had its share of labour trouble, notably the recent five week strike by its mechanics. And it's not over for Boeing yet as they still have to re-negotiate with their engineers for new contracts.

Boeing, NW, rocketing oil prices, also was it 5 or 6 airline crashes in the past two months?

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes.

I think you have it the wrong way around.

The former Canadian Airlines pilots are quite satisfied with the present seniority list, as they want this whole process to end, even though they are the clear losers in that final and binding arbitration a few years ago.

It is the more junior former Air Canada pilots that "hijacked" the 777/787 vote a month ago, and made it a seniority issue. They are unhappy because for a short period of time, they became captains on the DC-9 and A320 after only 2 years!!!!! They think that is normal and should continue, and not just a blip in the system.

For the record, it tool me 16 years to become a captain, average for Air Canada. And I would hazard a guess that is true with most legacy carriers in the US.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 20):It is the more junior former Air Canada pilots that "hijacked" the 777/787 vote a month ago, and made it a seniority issue. They are unhappy because for a short period of time, they became captains on the DC-9 and A320 after only 2 years!!!!! They think that is normal and should continue, and not just a blip in the system.

For the record, it tool me 16 years to become a captain, average for Air Canada. And I would hazard a guess that is true with most legacy carriers in the US.

Thank you for responding Captain. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not privy to all the details of the negotiations with your Union. It's great that someone, like yourself, tells us, the public, your side of the story. I can only go on what I read in the media, and, to a lesser extent, here on a.net.
Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?
I believe that it's in everyone's interests... AC, the Pilots Union and your customers to go forward with what we all know is inevitable... Air Canada fleet renewal with the new Boeing 777s and 787s.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 18):The thruth is, that if this were any other country, especially any latin american or asian country, you either WORK with the company, or get fired.

You say that as if you think it is a good thing...

You should be thankful you are not from one of those countries where you would be at the mercy of the "market" or employers or whomever, unless you happened to born rich and privileged.

I don't usually wade into this kind of post, but I personally am proud to live in "Soviet Canuckistan" where society is just a little more caring (this is for you as well, CayMan - you two can go a respect each other as far as I am concerned).

And (here is the aviation related part) I am glad that the people flying me and my family are professionals who are not subject to that kind of coercion: "do whatever the company tells you or you are fired" is a recipe for disaster, by way of corners cut, poorly trained pilots, etc..

YYZYYT

PS:
Luisca,
Should you get you commercial license when you grow up, I presume you will decline the wages negotiated by unions on your behalf? You will say "no thanks, I'll take whatever the company wants to pay, even minimum wage?
No wait, minimum wage is ALSO a product of socialism, I'll work for whatever you want!"

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):Luisca,
Should you get you commercial license when you grow up, I presume you will decline the wages negotiated by unions on your behalf? You will say "no thanks, I'll take whatever the company wants to pay, even minimum wage?
No wait, minimum wage is ALSO a product of socialism, I'll work for whatever you want!"

Hey man, in the airline where I expect to start on (Copa) there are no unions!

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 21):Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?

I agree completely, and truth be told, that is what is being done.

The 777/787 is a separate arbitration and will be completed shortly. But remember, there was never anything stopping Air Canada from ordering the 777/787 all along. They just wanted further concessions from the pilots, and did not wish to adhere to the existing contract.

The seniority mediation (not arbitration) will review the previous seniority award. But this award has been reviewed three further and separate times, and each time was deemed legal and fair. It appears this process will take quite a bit longer than the 777/787 issue, and is not related to it. Perhaps, the former Air Canada pilots will accept it this time.