I haven’t gotten the DVDs yet
*Heretic Heretic Burn the witch*
They’re on the way
*Oh*
Anyway I don’t know the episode order on them. But I looked at the episodes page, and I saw the order that I had said. Now I remember being told explicitly, repeatedly, rudely, and other words ending in –ly that I was wrong.

The order here is the production order, but the DVDs are supposedly in the order Joss wants them. Even if that would have been the order they would have aired had FOX let it go a few more weeks, I think that OiS is the best one to view last, and is probably the best lead-in to the BDM.

I've said this elsewhere, but can I make another plea for there being no correct order for the Firefly episodes? Events in some episodes are dependent on events in others. Whedon wanted Serenity to stand as the introduction to the 'verse. Objects in Space is probably most representative of Whedon's ideas, so is a good lead into the movie. But the rest is so influenced by the efforts of the production team to work with Fox Network, and that Network's failure to respond, that I think we should make the effort to appreciate the oeuvre as a whole - it's not that big.

I would hope that owners of the DVDs don't restrict themselves to reviewing the episodes in any strict order. Also, if you get into the significance of episode ordering, the orders that emerged for shooting, inital broadcast, subsequent overseas broadcasts and DVD publication each have a significance.

Quote:Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
I've said this elsewhere, but can I make another plea for there being no correct order for the Firefly episodes?

Hear hear. I reckon the DVD order is what Joss would like us to think of as the order, now, but if the season hadn't been truncated, I think Joss' preferred order might look more like the production order (with Serenity as the real pilot, of course). Allowing for Fox's general Foxiness, that is.

Quote:Events in some episodes are dependent on events in others.

e.g. the steals. Cows and Lasseters stolen at the end of one ep are still on the boat at the start of the next. I wonder, is this related to Fox's buying a certain number of eps at a time? Or is it a sneaky way on ME's part to link one ep to another, so that Fox might find it harder to split them apart?

I have to disagree. If Joss says the episode order is meant to go a certain way, then it is. He's very particular about that, especially because unlike most TV shows, he's telling a story, and not just stringing self-contained hours together where the only thing to keep watching for is if that person ends up with that other person.

And this is just my opinion here, but it wouldn't make sense story-wise and character wise for Inara, to have "Trash" and then "The Message" finish off the season after OiS.

She plans to leave the ship after all, and in "Trash" we see no hint of that, and she helps out on a job. That doesn't seem to fit. And neither does the way they interact in "the Message" during the port docking/mail getting/freak show attending teaser.

In fact, she's almost trying to find a place in his thieving lifestyle by suggesting where to sell the Lassiter, and it's only through Nandi in "Heart of Gold" that makes her see how attached she's become to him and life on "Serenity" and she views that as a bad thing for all concerned.

Probably cause she knows she's dying (yep, that's where I fall among the theories), and would have to leave them all eventually, and it would be emotional and sad and difficult. I'm of the notion that she joined the crew in the beginning to get out and see as much of the Verse as she could (because she's been in the House and only the House for so long) before passing on, and got in deeper than she intended to.

So that leads her to decide to leave voluntarily, because it would be better, and thus you have "Objects in Space," and the unofficial, intended end of the series.

Some of the episodes are in continuity, some aren't--i.e., Trash has to be after Our Mrs. Reynolds , and they have to steal The Lassiter before Inara can try to fence it; Simon can't decide *not* to take vengeance against Jayne until Ariel-plus-enough-time-to-figure-it-out (and it would be sort of cute if The Message were after Ariel because then Tracy would be on Ariel at about the same time as they were). War Stories has to be after The Train Job, and indeed long enough after for Niska to have worked up a head of steam.

Quote:And this is just my opinion here, but it wouldn't make sense story-wise and character wise for Inara, to have "Trash" and then "The Message" finish off the season after OiS.

The main problem and the root of the order controversy is that in The Message Jayne refers to River as a "mind-readin' genius", yet in OiS the subject of her being able to read minds is first brought up, and Jayne was skeptical about it. So it doesn't make sense that he would come up with that idea on his own, then doubt it when its openly discussed.

When you take that into consideration, and since The Message must follow Trash, factor in Trash and The Message being filmed after OiS aired, and a pinch of Inara's hair you get a recipe for why some people think that the production order is the 'correct' order.

We don't know how Joss would have resolved Inara leaving in episode 16 had Fox given a green light for the back 7. The fact that there is no mention of her leaving in Trash and The Message doesn't mean they MUST come before HoG and OiS. Episode 16 could have opened with Mal saying that she said she was leaving 2 months ago and tells her to make up her mind already, she does, tells the crew, and leaves.

But since there is no 16, and from what we know of the movie's story OiS is a good way to end it. So the DVD order is fine.

Fair enough. :-) But I offer, given Jayne's reactions to River in "Ariel" (especially where I always believed after they were captured that Jayne knew that she knew he had betrayed her) and again in "Trash" when he was temporarily paralyzed, he kind of figured something was up with her and said so off-handedly in "The Message," but not seriously meaning it.

Then in OiS, he's doubtful because he doesn't WANT to believe it. Jayne's not the smartest, but he does have his moments.

And I still hold that Inara's actions in "Trash" and "The Message" aren't the actions of someone who's conflicted and looking to leave the ship. But since Joss ain't here, either arguement could be correct, so I shrug and say, "Yay for us."

Quote:Originally posted by RiversBounty:
Fair enough. :-) But I offer, given Jayne's reactions to River in "Ariel" (especially where I always believed after they were captured that Jayne knew that she knew he had betrayed her) and again in "Trash" when he was temporarily paralyzed, he kind of figured something was up with her and said so off-handedly in "The Message," but not seriously meaning it.

Since I was mostly focusing on The Message I didn't really consider mentioning specifics in Trash. But since you reminded me, and to be complete--Jayne's look of fear to River saying 'I can kill you with my brain' could be a result of the events in OiS, further suggesting that Trash comes after OiS.

In terms of Ariel, I don't think Jayne knew that River knew he betrayed them. I will offer something here that actually contradicts part of what I originally said regarding Jayne's comment in The Message: I think that River's rant when they were captured was her reading his mind and talking about something tragic in his childhood. This is why he was pissed and wanted her to shut up. If this is true, then Jayne could reasonably realize on his own that she can read minds in The Message. BUT keep in mind we are talking about Jayne. Its hard for him to reasonably realize that his hat is on his head. So its hard to imagine that he would be able to figure it out his own.

As for Inara's actions in Trash and The Message, I agree with you. It does not seem from either Inara's or Mal's actions/conversations that she has announced her intention to leave. This is why we really need ep 16. You never know, production number 16 may have actually aired prior to Trash to explain why she hasnt left.

Quote:From RHUTTNER:
The main problem and the root of the order controversy is that in The Message Jayne refers to River as a "mind-readin' genius", yet in OiS the subject of her being able to read minds is first brought up, and Jayne was skeptical about it. So it doesn't make sense that he would come up with that idea on his own, then doubt it when its openly discussed.

Quote:From RIVERSBOUNTY:
Fair enough. :-) But I offer, given Jayne's reactions to River in "Ariel" (especially where I always believed after they were captured that Jayne knew that she knew he had betrayed her) and again in "Trash" when he was temporarily paralyzed, he kind of figured something was up with her and said so off-handedly in "The Message," but not seriously meaning it.

The whole crew knew something was up with River along those lines as early as "Safe," since Simon has to have told them why they were being threatened with burning at the stake.

The problem I had, or one of the problems, is that "I can kill you with my brain" seems a direct reference to "Killing with math" in OiS.

Also I got the impression that Jayne didn’t like the idea of reading minds because he was afraid of being found out. Further I didn’t think that he would bring up him wanting them off the ship after not just Mal but also Simon and River knew about what he did.

The *audience* sees River reading minds in Bushwhacked, and the *crew* sees her reading Badger's mind in...ummm, sorry, not sure which episode they were sitting around in the cargo bay not-getting-nekkid and trying to figure out a diversion, so I think it's pretty much on record long before OiS.

And "killing with her mind" is not a bad description of River's radar in War Stories (which probably has to be after Ariel because that was where they got the money to buy Wash).

that was "Shindig" ... but i read the scene with Badger as her picking up on and placing the accent and then deducing or intuiting (is that a word?) the rest, not reading his mind (though looking back she probably did that too).

Quote:Originally posted by christhecynic:
The problem I had, or one of the problems, is that "I can kill you with my brain" seems a direct reference to "Killing with math" in OiS.

Thats what I meant when I said that Jayne's fear of River saying that is a result of what happened in OiS. So OiS would have to come before Trash for that to be the reason.

Quote:Also I got the impression that Jayne didn’t like the idea of reading minds because he was afraid of being found out. Further I didn’t think that he would bring up him wanting them off the ship after not just Mal but also Simon and River knew about what he did.

Ooooh. Excellent point. I never considered that connection. And if that is indeed why he didn't like the idea of being read it would mean that OiS would have to come before Trash for the reason you said. Course we will probably never know what Jayne's motivation for saying that was.

BTW, my real opinion is that the production order is 'correct' so it would be OiS/T/TM. So its nice to have some new points to make for that opinion. Not that it really matters at this point. So thanks christhecynic.

why we still arguin' what's already been decided? joss put the dvd's out in the order he wanted them. i like it.
remember they had to refilm the bit on OIS between inara and mal coz HOG hadn't aired. no one knew she was going to leave when OIS was shown. the bit on the dvd is the original film.
sounds like they were jumping through all kind of hoops to make fox happy and it just confused things.
and i totally agree the jayne remark in OIS was like you mean she can really read minds? i mean i thought she could, but really? i think his remark in TM was meant to be funny.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

Quote:Originally posted by karenkay99:
why we still arguin' what's already been decided?

Can you imagine a better thing to argue over?

Quote:joss put the dvd's out in the order he wanted them.

I used to talk about a book I was writing here. It was a piece of crap. I have a new book, it's not so much bad. For one thing the grammar is better than the previous sentence. Where am I going with this? Well I wrote the book, that means that I am god there. I know everything that is going on in the characters’ heads. Someone had the audacity to tell me what was really happening. As if I didn’t know.

The only reason that they could do this was because the book was better (than the other), the characters complex, the world well thought out. The better something is the less control the author has over interpretation.

Firefly is too good to be limited to a “What Joss says goes” attitude. If you think it goes better one way you watch it that way, if you feel the need to tell others why you do.

Quote:no one knew she was going to leave when OIS was shown.

That's not quite true, as in not at all. A lot of people knew exactly what she was talking about when it aired.

When we found out she said, “I’m leaving” at the end of the pervious episode all made sense. After all first she say’s she’s leaving, then she talks about leaving. Then events transpire that make her not leave. What events? Well first thing she says is that they haven’t been to a decent planet, no place to drop her off.

If it weren’t for the fact the scene was reshot, and we found out about it, there would have been no doubt about the order and it would not be the one on the DVDs.

With the reshot scene it obviously is different, but now there are two versions of the scene, makeing two versions of the order.

Watch 'em in any order you like, but realize that Joss HAS established a canon order for viewing them, which you can follow if you like.

Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
Tell 'em I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
Since I've found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me

Quote:Originally posted by DigificWriter:
Watch 'em in any order you like, but realize that Joss HAS established a canon order for viewing them, which you can follow if you like.

That's exactly my point, when was the last time canon was followed? The truth is that some canonical stuff is less reputable than stuff that was declared heretical centuries ago.

If you believe in the infallibility of the bible that means that what god himself says doesn’t go, Joss is god here. So, because he is god here, and because you yourself said what he says is only as good as canon, the subject is open to debate.

That's not quite true, as in not at all. A lot of people knew exactly what she was talking about when it aired.

That's not true. When OiS aired there was nothing in it that suggested she planned to leave. The reshot scene suggested she was getting frustrated with not being able to work and 'threatened' Mal that she would leave unless he went to places where she could find work.

The original scene depended on the viewer having seen HoG. Since it didnt air, then the original scene made no sense. In that scene it was clear she was leaving because they talked about renting the shuttle and telling the rest of the crew.

Quote:When we found out she said, “I’m leaving” at the end of the pervious episode all made sense. After all first she say’s she’s leaving, then she talks about leaving. Then events transpire that make her not leave. What events? Well first thing she says is that they haven’t been to a decent planet, no place to drop her off.

Actually, the word decent referred to finding work: This is the third planet in a row where I can't find decent clientele.

The drop off point was about her leaving at New Melbourne whose only real value is "it's a layover point for almost every planet this side of the system".

Quote:Originally posted by karenkay99:
remember they had to refilm the bit on OIS between inara and mal coz HOG hadn't aired. no one knew she was going to leave when OIS was shown. the bit on the dvd is the original film.
sounds like they were jumping through all kind of hoops to make fox happy and it just confused things.

You are correct about this. But no one is really questioning the order of Hog before OiS. The question is does Trash/The Message come before or after Hog/OiS.

There are too many things that don't make sense for them to come before, but theres a plot hole if they come after.

sorry about the arguin' comment. i was just trying to be funny. i'll keep trying. i really love the arguin' (discussions) here.

and i agree, watch it however you enjoy it.

i'm just saying i like the dvd order (joss' order). i like OIS last. it's satisfying, you know. river has been accepted. simon & kaylee almost kissed. they will next time, i'm sure. inara hasn't left so anything could happen. book is still working on something, he'll be ok. jayne will never change. wash & zoe will be ok too. and mal will keep on doing what he does, taking care of his serenity family, one day (danger) at a time.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

1) I'm much inclined to the theory that Jayne has heard the stories of River's mind-reading (going all the way back to "Safe"), and is joking about it in "The Message". "Girl's a mind-reading genius and she can't even figure out how to eat an ice planet" sounds to me like "You guys say she's so amazing, but..." So he's making fun of Simon's belief in her, but he hasn't been convinced himself yet (which happens in OiS).

2) Not sure if anyone else noticed this, and I still don't know if it's significant or a coincidence, but... In "Trash", there's one shot out a window with ships flying by, and one of them looks a heck of a lot like Jubal Early's ship. Tiny fuselage, huge forward-swept batwings. I just gave back the DVDs to the friend who lent them and got me hooked, and I don't have my own copy yet, so I can't double-check this right now, but I think it's out the window of the room with the Lassiter. Could be an unintended similarity, could be a re-use of a CGI model, or it could be that Early (who's been "tracking them since Ariel") is close behind them when they're on Bellerophon, but hasn't seen the opportunity to make his move yet. Which would obviously put "Trash" before OiS in the chronological sequence.

1) I'm much inclined to the theory that Jayne has heard the stories of River's mind-reading (going all the way back to "Safe"), and is joking about it in "The Message". "Girl's a mind-reading genius and she can't even figure out how to eat an ice planet" sounds to me like "You guys say she's so amazing, but..." So he's making fun of Simon's belief in her, but he hasn't been convinced himself yet (which happens in OiS).

What stories? From who?

Remember the actual mention of River being able to read minds came from OiS. Mal and Book suspected this prior, and Zoe, Wash, and Jayne seemed surprised at the suggestion.
There was no discussion between the others about it before Kaylee told them what happened in War Stories.

Another thing to consider regarding the order is Kaylee. I will have to review T/TM to see what interaction, if any, there was between Kaylee and River, but keep in mind Kaylee is afraid of River until the end of OiS. There is a part of the HoG shooting script that didn't make it to the final cut that shows she is still afraid of her. If Kaylee doesn't show fear of River in T/TM then that suggests they come after OiS.

The obvious one to me (also cited somewhere above) is that Simon has to have given some explanation after "Safe" as to how the villagers got the idea that River was a witch. Not saying that he believed it really was mind-reading at that point, or that anyone else on the crew believed it either, but enough to plant the idea that the villagers believed it. That would be enough for Jayne to make a joke about it later.

Haven't read the scripts, so the bit about Kaylee in HoG is news to me. Interesting.

The obvious one to me (also cited somewhere above) is that Simon has to have given some explanation after "Safe" as to how the villagers got the idea that River was a witch. Not saying that he believed it really was mind-reading at that point, or that anyone else on the crew believed it either, but enough to plant the idea that the villagers believed it. That would be enough for Jayne to make a joke about it later.

Haven't read the scripts, so the bit about Kaylee in HoG is news to me. Interesting.

At most Simon would have had to tell Mal, not the entire crew. But there is no evidence to suggest that Simon said anything.

The obvious one to me (also cited somewhere above) is that Simon has to have given some explanation after "Safe" as to how the villagers got the idea that River was a witch.

At most Simon would have had to tell Mal, not the entire crew. But there is no evidence to suggest that Simon said anything.

but we do know that travel between planet(thingies) takes up a whole bunch of time, so whilst he could have avoided the questions, and whilst we have no evidence of them talking about it it would be fair to assume they did.

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:Originally posted by rhuttner:
But no one is really questioning the order of Hog before OiS. The question is does Trash/The Message come before or after Hog/OiS.

There are too many things that don't make sense for them to come before, but theres a plot hole if they come after.

That seems to sum up the logical argument ("sum up" does not mean "solve"). I decided for myself on an emotional basis.

I've watched the series four times without commentary, plus those episodes with commentary another three times each. Once I had heard the commentary, I have chosen to watch (T &) 'the Message' last. It was the last one shot, cast & crew knew the show was cancelled, & the scene of Serenity delivering Tracy's body to his parents makes a sad, beautiful, wonderful farewell.

I tried once more to watch it in DVD order, and it's just too dislocating to go beyond 'Message'

ps: I intend to lay off the DVD for at least a month before the BDM, to minimize the problem.

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