MSOs

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Clanker

Latest doctrinal update from the centre of the AMS universe ... apparently the raison d'etre of MSOs is to keep MOs supplied with tea and mars bars ... try suggesting that in your local med regt mess and let me know if you survive longer than 3 millisecs.

Old-Salt

The raison d'etre of MSOs is to help MOs out with those tricky situations that puzzle them so much:

"Come on, you can do it. That's it, both hands. Look, it's not that hard - do I have to draw you a map? Well done! See I told you, finding your arrse with both hands IS possible. Well done indeed. Now, back to your med centre and stop trying to be a soldier."

"Would your men follow you?"
"No, I think they'd much rather stay and fight!"

LE

Probably why the AMS can only commission 3 RAMC warrant Officers for 20 odd position, which they fill from the great unwashed RLC, AGC and REME, oh and not forgetting the Infantry who have a marverlous grasp of the our doctrine and ways! Was it on a TESSEX
I heard " FU&^%ing Medics!!".

Swinger

Latest doctrinal update from the centre of the AMS universe ... apparently the raison d'etre of MSOs is to keep MOs supplied with tea and mars bars ... try suggesting that in your local med regt mess and let me know if you survive longer than 3 millisecs.

I thought a PQO attached to my unit was joking when as a Platoon Commander he turned up to a range I was running I TRIED (???) to use a pistol. Then of course there was the state of his webbing - if you could call it that?

The main reason for MSOs in the RAMC is to prevent PQOs making a complete f**k up of everything they try to do which isn't related to thier professional qualification!!

LE

Unfortunately, we have to pander to the PQO's as they are a resource we cannot squander, as a Consultant Surgeon, they can come to work dressed as Noddy and nothing would be said! An officer, on a Range I was running was asked to leave as he gave me the fear, said "Well it doesnt matter I am on £200 a day, who want me to be soldier?" Wise words mate!

LE

Fully agree, but these people are not 'soldiers' they are professionals the Army requires. I have seen Medical Consultants dressed in 3 Orders of Dress but that's the way it is!- You dont mess with them!

Next month they will be saving soldiers lives!

E

error_unknown

Guest

Then again I have met several cav officers who seem to get the orders of dress mixed up but isnt that officer individuality!!

Also having completed a recent EOC course I was delighted to hear the CI tell us that we were just there to enable the PQOs to do their jobs and that we should be priveleged to be allowed to lick their boots........... Hmm

error_unknown

Guest

What was the context of the comment than MSO's should not expect to command? Was it a general comment about being in charge of soldiers or specifically about unit command? If it were the latter I would say fair comment. None of us should expect to command a unit. We should prove that we are up to it irrespective of cap-badge. However, I do take the point. Far too often we appoint individuals to command who have been given the nod on the basis that they come from a particular cap-badge or profession.

LE

If a MSO is good enough to command a Medical Unit, then they should. There are some superb MSO's cutting about, Adjts and 2ICs (Honest, they are excellent!)- Some can't see past their boss's arrse- We all know the good ones, but they seem to be side stepped around command and we dont get the benefit of their experience or knowledge. One springs too mind I cannot name, but I would have followed him to the mouth of Hell, unlike 90% of them, I wouldn't follow to the NAAFI.

Old-Salt

Arthur - the ranks of 'Surgeon Captain' etc still exist in the Royal Navy.

Regarding the issue of MSOs in command, I heard about that interesting talk given to the recent EOC. My understanding is that the MSOs were told that very few of them would make full Colonel or beyond.

The response to that has to be - obviously! You cannot and should not compare an MSO's career path and rank structure with that of a PQO. It&#8217;s true that few newly commissioned MSOs will make full Colonel&#8230;but a lot more will than a newly commissioned group of infantry officers! I can count one Brigadier and four full Colonels (MSO) off the top of my head, and I&#8217;m sure that there are more. The point is that MSOs require proper recommendations, available jobs, and time to reach Col and above. The same is true of MSOs in command appointments, of which there have been plenty.

Doctors, on the other hand, are still on a form of time based promotion, and so only require time (although they can promote earlier with proper recommendations and the correct job to move into). CTOS has removed the link between pay and rank, and there was at first a plan to cap the upper rank of doctors at Major or Lt Col unless they went down the Command & Staff route. Following the revelation that doctors quite like high ranks, and it&#8217;s good for their morale (among other reasons), it was decided to leave a form of time promotion in place. The logic partly goes that since it&#8217;s irrelevant to pay (and therefore costs), it represents a cheap way of maintaining morale at a time of heavy consultant shortages.

HOWEVER, it has been questioned by more than one study (including the independent, outside consultant, who was responsible for MMRR) why we allow members of a professional group who are very undermanned to &#8216;waste&#8217; their skills in Command & Staff jobs when that&#8217;s what the MSO cadre exists for! One problem that will stop the MSO cadre potentially taking advantage of this, is the serious under manning that exists there too! There are huge gaps at senior Captain, Major and Lt Col levels. Most senior Capts are currently acting Majors, and senior Majors are acting Lt Cols. That&#8217;s how the &#8216;Grey Mafia&#8217; are managing to slide in and fill a disproportionate number of Staff jobs.

"Would your men follow you?"
"No, I think they'd much rather stay and fight!"

Clanker

Are the 'QA mafia' over-represented in staff appointments. If so why? Are they performing well in these jobs, if not why not? Do any of these people have the necessary staff training to do these jobs? What level are they at, Grade 3, 2 or 1? Are they command or staf appointments? Do QA's command, if not why not?

Reference the MMRR question "why do we allow these highly skilled clinical professions to undertake command and staff work?" I know that they are in one case 15 volumes long and in the other case 18 volumes long but perhaps they should read the official histories of the medical services in WW1 and WW2 and why we had the medical disasters of the 19th century. I know we are a hundred yeas on but the basic logic holds good. You do need a good smattering of these people in the medical C&S chain, history more than demonstartes this if you are preared to take a little time for research.

Can I suggest that one of the AMSs real weaknesses is how few MSOs have any healthcare background? This is not a criticism of MSOs as such, but a failure by the AMS to attract recruit and train the right people for this cadre. Far more MSOs should be given the opportunity to train as medical administrators if they wish (I know many who do), and the current YOs course (if you can call it that) has to be beefed up. What about a modular Institute of Health Service Managers in the junior years and a requirement to do Health Management as the Modular MA/MSc required under the ROCC recommendations? You have a shed load of (admitadly nurse) academics working in the Universities of Portsmouth and Birmingham offering a part time Degree in Military Nursing. Im sure that between them, the university, the AGC(ETS) it could be possible to put together a part-time degree in military medical administration? Between the three services arent there something like 400 MSO slots, that must be enough to make such a course worthwhile?

LE

I agree to a point, you just have to see how many the AMS commission every year from the AMs against the rest of the Army- three this year! The rest coming from the Inf, AGC and RLC being in the majority.

Clanker

Why do the AMS commission so few of their own as LE officers? Are AMS WO's that poor or does the AMS hierarchy think that by bringinging in people from other branches that will make up for the broader experience so many of their medical and nursing staff officers lack?

LE

Why do the AMS commission so few of their own as LE officers? Are AMS WO's that poor or does the AMS hierarchy think that by bringinging in people from other branches that will make up for the broader experience so many of their medical and nursing staff officers lack?

You should ask the DGAMS, we commssion on average 3 AMS WOs out of 30 all other Regts and Corps. If they are so good, become a LE in their own Corps, they come to the AMS and offer very little. The only plus side is we get quality LE RAMC CMTs (Well 70% of the time).

Old-Salt

Retractor - I entirely agree that 'a good smattering' of clinicians are required in the command and staff chain. I do, however, believe that it should be the exception rather than the rule, and that it should be earned rather than automatic.

I also agree that MSOs on the whole do not have enough of a medical background. The EOC is frankly a waste of time. The idea of a modular Health Service Managers course of some sort is a splendid one. Do bear in mind, however, that there is a strong strand of an MSO's job that relates to leading a medical unit in the Field, as part of a wider operational orbat. Lets not allow ourselves to completely side track an MSO's training from that of any other Army Officer - he/she requires staff training, field experience, and experience of working in Bde and Div headquarters with a knowledge of joint operations as well as medical doctrine. This is often where the doctors in command fall down. This, and a lack of junior command experience.

Regarding commissioning Warrant Officers, I think that bringing in a smattering of experience from outside the Corps can only be beneficial. However, to flood the Corps with LEs from other cap badges removes the main advantage that an LE officer has to offer - namely the wealth of experience gained from spending years in the AMS at all levels!

"Would your men follow you?"
"No, I think they'd much rather stay and fight!"

Old-Salt

AMS PQO joins up, dead keen, wants to develop mil skills. Majority of posts available are civvie-type jobs. Finally gets field post and does best to play 'catch up' (terrifying the Range Managers in the process). PQO asks to go on JDSC but told not allowed - reserved for MSOs who need it for promotion. (which would be fair enough had a certain cadre of AMS PQOs not always seem to have had a place on the cse).

So - despite wanting to learn the skills and drills PQO seems to be thwarted at every opportunity. And then gets endless 'abuse' (banter, grief, call it what you will) for not being a proper soldier and not knowing the drills and skills........... NOT from want of trying.

Surely there is a better way of educating and training PQOs so that they can do a better job and become more 'soldierly' whilst still being good professionals?

If we dont give some staff and command posts to PQOs how do you expect them to learn? Catch 22 - Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Surely with a bit of common sense and 'Man Management' on the part of MCM Div we could get a much better structure established. Ah - but methinks I have just seen the flaw....................... :'(

ps And just WHY do the RAMC continually bicker and split between MSOs & PQOs? Surely they are all working towards the same goal? Or is Teamwork no longer considered necessary?