Really man, I witness harsher language an behavior in the produce section at my local market.

It is a big deal to some though. Isnt it just as easy to say don't do that as it is to say no big whup? Especially as often as recipes get asked for here? Does the risk of that make someone more likely to share here?

Didn't someone just ask why there is a negative view about pm on other sites?

How can you say that? I'm not defending what Scott said (I don't know that much yet), but Tony's last post was pretty harsh. "Next time we see each other you may want to be more professional." Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there, but this reads a bit like a threat to me.

It is a big deal to some though. Isnt it just as easy to say don't do that as it is to say no big whup?

Nope...not in my world. That is just asking for more problems...it's a lot easier to simply turn the page. Unfortunately, we are all human(and stuff happens)and that's why we have Moderators. Even a Church has it's Pastor.

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"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

scott123

"Who's this Scott guy that hates me so much? I have no idea who he is or why he's always trashing me. I used to go on that forum a little but I avoid it now." Since then, I have seen several more times that it has happened.

Wow, Robyn, that is quite a trend

I have a total of three posts where I question Tony's dough making skills (while praising his acrobatic skills):

and while Tony Gemignani (International School of Pizza) could be one of the best guys in the world to learn dough tossing acrobats from, he has gaps on the pizzamaking side. You don't want to learn how to make NY pizza from a Californian

OK, I've had just about enough of all this....Tony, my fellow paesano, if you can hear me man, I would like to officially challenge you to a Chicago thin crust pizza throwdown. Anywhere, any time dude...your call! Dis is what I'll be bring'in to ya....

I'm not Pete so I can't miraculously come up with dozens, and I know the moderators have removed some of your more virulent posts, including some about Tony. But here's a few that are more accurate of how you have posted about Tony. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you, Scott - I'm not equipped and I have no interest. I know how much you help a lot of people on this forum, and I know that you enjoy being abrasive and controversial. It would simply be nice if you would lay off the personal attacks - they reflect poorly on both you and on PM as a whole.

If you're going with NY style, you might be able to be ready in time, but you have to start now. Learning dough acrobatics from Gemignani (his only strength) in California will get you no where. And, in case I wasn't clear before, Goodfellas is literally flushing money down the drain.

I think, right now, Nick knows more about pizza than Tony does. Tony knows a heck of a lot about throwing dough, and, if someone were interested in throwing, Tony would be THE guy to train with, but for pizza making, perhaps the school would be good for a beginner, but not for a successful pizzeria owner in the tri state area.

And I just saw that I duplicated a couple of yours, Scott. Oh well, you know what I am talking about.

But here's a few that are more accurate of how you have posted about Tony.

Umm... you repeated 2 of the links I just posted, and you added 2 that I had missed. Okay, 5 unfavorable posts to 30 favorable. That still leans pretty heavily towards the favorable side.

This isn't major detective work here nor do you need Peter's Herculean search skills. If you search for 'tony' and put my name in the user field, all these posts show up. There's no hidden mountain of hostility or virulence.

Talk about other planets I wouldn't know thin crust if it bit me in the behind Sometimes I have been known to call deep dish pizza a casserole (oh no he didn't ) but I have much respect for a city that does their own thing and puts their own label on it. Why do these left coasters have to all jump on my town's bandwagon? 'San Francisco style pizza.' Doesn't that have a nice ring to it? San Francisco pizza- now with 2.5% salt! Give me a slice of that!

scott123

2.5% salt in a N.Y. dough? Hmm, sounds like it's worth a try! Might be pretty darn good! oops, I mean , I mean I mean

I know you're joking, Steve, but I consider you an expert in these matters. If someone was looking to make an authentic NY style pizza, and they asked you your advice on coming up with a formulation, would you really tell them to use 2.5% salt?

No, I must admit, I'm almost exclusively a 1.75% kind of guy. Occasionally though, I've been known to go as far as 1.8! But really, what's the harm in trying 2.5? Good or bad, you're likely to learn something.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 07:49:19 PM by Ev »

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scott123

Steve, with your love of Neapolitan and your extensive experience eating NY style pizza, I would think you'd be an excellent candidate for being able to clearly differentiate between a 1.5%-2% salt crust and a more Neapolitan-ish 2.5% salt crust. I know you haven't spent a huge amount of time in NY, but you've had plenty of NY slices (other than your own and Norma's). Phillie's got a few NY places as well, right?. Out of all the NY style places you've been, did any of the crusts taste like they were 2.5% salt?

Scott, fwiw I know we disagree on 1 subject, but we will leave that alone for now. I do just want to pop in here after reading this thread and say that I do not think you were disrespectful to Tony but honest. I agree with you on all points. I have eaten Tonys pizza, chatted with Tony and while good it was not as good as I had hoped. Maybe I am jaded, and my "amazing" pizza experiences are few and far between. I posted my thoughts recently in another thread and I stand by them. That thread is here:http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23630.msg239960.html#msg239960

I applaud your efforts to keep the definition of NY pizza on track and your no holds barred approach. Unfortunately the general public will accept awards as the be all end all of food quality, meaning if they say its the best, it must be the best, then they go and tell everyone they had the best and where to get it. Then everyone has had the best, and they all know it. But they all missed the point. Even Tony says his pizza is amazing, maybe he has not had the best either. And I am not saying that the pizza isn't really good. Here is the problem, since he is so busy traveling and opening up celebrity pizza places, helping and training everyone in the country he is not making much of the pizza or overseeing the operation(s) I am afraid for him that he wants to be the dunkin donuts of pizza. I know easy for me to to say from here behind my computer. Too bad he wasn't just content with trying to be the best in a location or two like Chris Bianco and some others. Just my 3 cents -marc

Steve, with your love of Neapolitan and your extensive experience eating NY style pizza, I would think you'd be an excellent candidate for being able to clearly differentiate between a 1.5%-2% salt crust and a more Neapolitan-ish 2.5% salt crust. I know you haven't spent a huge amount of time in NY, but you've had plenty of NY slices (other than your own and Norma's). Phillie's got a few NY places as well, right?. Out of all the NY style places you've been, did any of the crusts taste like they were 2.5% salt?

No, I guess not, but then again I've had pizza that I've thought could use a little more salt only to find out that there was already 2%. I think it's all about balance. Like in NP, there's typically less salt in the sauce and fresh mozz and so there's more in the dough.

scott123

It's another day and the dust has settled a bit. Within the context of a good night's sleep and a calmer frame of mind, I wanted to take a moment and provide a little more insight as to the motivations behind my actions on this forum.

From day one in this community, my agenda has been crystal clear: Protect my region's cultural treasure as it traverses the nation/globe while helping people replicate it on their own. Not a single post of almost 5000 has wavered from that goal. At my core, it's who I am. I can't separate out my protective inclinations from my desire to help. If you get me, you get both of my aspects- protector and teacher. There is no Scott 'lite.' I'd like to think that I'm a teacher far more than a protector, and, if you look at my posts, it seems that 99% them are from an educational rather than a critical perspective, but if my culture is being attacked, I'm stepping up.

Earlier, Robyn said that I enjoy being controversial. This couldn't be any further from the truth. I HATE this misanthropic role. HATE it. It's misery being this critical. If I'm going to protect my culture, though, this is the role that I occasionally have to play.

Sometimes, I'm just angry, and that anger makes it onto the page. The commercialism of the expo makes my blood boil and I needed to vent- knowing full well that nothing that I say will ever make the expo less commercial. That kind of venting serves little purpose. When it comes to challenging misinformation, though, I forcefully criticize in an attempt to push buttons, and it is through pushing buttons that my message tends to travel the furthest. There's a two prong nature to controversy. First, as Peter pointed out, criticism sticks with people more than praise. It's a sad aspect of human nature, but the squeaky wheel tends to get the oil. If a famous person is spreading bad info, within the chorus of deafening praise that's constantly being showered upon them, the only way that I'm going to get their attention is if I rock the boat. Secondly, controversy helps the correction stick in the minds of those that might buy into the fallacy. Any beginner reading this thread is going to think twice about using 2.5% salt in a NY formula. Had I put forward the correction in a less critical manner, the cultural misrepresentation would have taken far greater root.

When famous people open their mouths, people listen. Celebrities like Tony wield a vast amount of power. The damage they can do when they're incorrect can be devastating. To this day, thanks to Jeff Varasano, people still believe that Patsy's uses a starter and that sourdough might play a role in NY pizza. When misinformation has the potential to influence thousands of impressionable minds, I have to counter that colossal force with an equally powerful force of my own. And the strongest tool in my toolbox, the only instrument that has any hope in countering these fallacies, is controversy.

Believe it or not, I have serious mancrushes on just about all the famous people that I criticize. Nothing would make me happier than to sit down, have a slice and chat with Tony. He seems like a really great guy (when he's not making veiled threats ). As long as he's preaching inaccuracies, I have to be the villain. But it doesn't make me happy. When I come across someone struggling with some aspect of their pizza and I can say 'try this or try that' and they have success following my suggestion, that's where my joy comes from. Playing a role in PolishPizza's almost overnight transition from beginner to ace was one of the happiest moments of my last 5 years. I LOVE teaching. But alienating people that I, for the most part, look up to- those have been the unhappiest moments of my last 5 years.

On the plus side, for those of you who have issues with controversy, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. There's only so many people that have the power to influence thousands. The list of famous people that I have an axe to grind with is dwindling. I've made my peace with Reinhart. I'll still continue to trashtalk American Pie, but as far as calling Peter, himself, names, that's done. I'm not that happy about what might make it into Kenji's book, but, at this point, I can't see what I can do about it. Kenji is fully aware of my issue with the manner in which he defines NY style pizza, he's a brilliant guy and we have mutual friends. I'm hopeful that some aspect of this equation will allow truth to eventually trickle through. Who's left? Varasano? Other than his recent laughable tirade against bromate (which may or may not have been a joke), I'm fine with Jeff.

On the famous people front, other than Tony, there's really no one left to criticize. Now, there's always going to be someone with another 2stone knockoff trying to make a quick buck. When potentially specious claims are made and people's hard earned money is on the line, my protective nature really kicks in, so, if you want this place to be Disneyland, as long as I'm here, that's not going to happen. But, on the celebrity side, things should simmer down.

As far as Tony goes, if he's going to come after me like he did, I'm going to defend myself and respond in a similar fashion. If he wants to converse in a calm civil manner, I'm more than happy to initiate a dialog. As discussed, the expo is a tremendous stick in my craw, but I can criticize the expo independently from Tony. At the end of the day, I don't really care about the clothes Tony is wearing My commercialism concerns are a drop in the bucket compared to Tony's inaccurate depiction of NY style pizza. If he's willing to discuss my concerns, even if we end up agreeing to disagree, it will go a long way in ameliorating the situation.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I know that there are one or two members who will despise me no matter what I say, but, I'm hoping that, for a would be detractor that might be on the fence, this insight might help you understand where I'm coming from a bit better.

Sorry, Steve, I forgot about that post that you deleted. In all fairness, it had nothing to with Tony or any other celebrity. It was regarding claims regarding a new product, which, as I said, I will always rail against if I feel like the purveyors aren't being 100% truthful.

Thanks for the clarification of your views, Scott. As I've said before, both publicly and privately, I appreciate your knowledge and passion about pizza. Sometimes I take offense at the name calling and what appears to be intentionally hurt feelings, tantrums, meltdowns, and whatever. I get it. It's a heavy weight you have to bear. At least you have the nerve to stand up for your convictions. It's just a shame that it means there will be hard feelings along the way. FWIW, I tend to take everything I read here with a grain of salt. Just not 2.5%

To this day, thanks to Jeff Varasano, people still believe that Patsy's uses a starter and that sourdough might play a role in NY pizza.

I tend to sit back and watch when these situations happen, but the above quote hit home for me. When I did my first Google search on how to replicate NY pizza outside of NY, Varasano's website was the first link I clicked. Within a short time I received my Ischia starter and began my NY pizza quest.... or should I say struggle.

It wasn't until I found pm.com that I realized Ischia is better suited for Neo, and ADY + cold rise is all you need to make a decent NY pie at home. Although I'm happy to have the Ischia starter, I would have accomplished my goals far faster if I came to pm.com first.

Personal attacks are unwarranted, but so is misinformation. I appreciate those who take the time to share their knowledge to help others meet their goals.