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We thought this eventually might come but not so soon. Weistec has decided to sell a naturally aspirated tune for the M156 V8 which offers gains of 47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, impressive. In addition to the horsepower gain torque is upped by 32 wheel, the speed limiter is removed, and the throttle response is optimized. The price is a very reasonable $990 which also is credited toward a supercharger purchase should one decide they want more power.

I don't mean the overall number of 441 whp is too high.... I was trying to say that the car in question dynoed lower than standard E63s so the dyno shows higher gains than usual especially considering it is 100% stock (charcoal filters still in tact and no aftermarket air filters in place). Now a tune + filters + charcoal filter delete, then a 45 whp maybe possible.

Thought so. In this case than I agree with your assessment. The crank HP of the E63 isn't reflected in the baseline dyno. This indeed seems to artificially increase the overall gain number.

There is a big difference between underrating and overrating. If they overrate the engine, they can get sued for false advertising. So if they advertise 507 hp, then that engine better be make at least 507 hp or more or they'll have multiple law suits on their hand. Also, the E55 fiasco was way before they switched to the new hp measuring standard.

The motor is not overrated and there is no De facto drivetrain loss standard. Different dyno's will provide different wheel readings which shows the crank rating does not mean much as the loss is constant not changing from dyno to dyno. The % simply changes based on what dyno you are using. If you go dyno on a dyno dynamics or a Mustang and it reads lower than 17-19% are you going to go sue Mercedes? Really? The motor clearly makes 507 horsepower.

The E55 fiasco was due to protecting the CL55, S55, and SL55. It clearly proves crank figures are meaningless when attempting to measure rear wheel power. The BMW 335 and 1M are heavily underrated. The losses do not suddenly evaporate. % loss can not be used as an argument here or as support due to dyno variance.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Again underrating is different than overrating. If you think the 507 figure is underrated, then the a healthy running stock E63 should put down at least 410 whp.

Again this is irrelevant. What % you expect to see as a drivetrain loss can not be guaranteed. A healthy running stock E63 should put down 410 whp in your opinion on dyno's you have seen. I could take an E63 to 5 different dyno's and get you 5 different numbers. I could run one in shootout mode on a dyno dynamics and get you something in the mid to low 300's. Did the losses suddenly go up? Of course not. Different dynojets will even read differently.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

So you're saying that if a car is rated for 600 hp at the crank and it dynoed much lower than it should then that's normal? That doesn't make any sense at all. There is a crank hp rating that is verified independently of the manufacturer. Mercedes has to make sure their engine hits that power level or exceed it. They can't say this engine produces 507 hp and put out an engine that only produces 450 hp.

By your logic, the tune should really say up to 47 whp because you're implying that weather the car was weaker before the tune or not, the tune will make it as strong as a healthy running car. If Weistec can take an E63 or CLS63 or CLK63 BS stock car that happen dyno at 419 whp and add 47 whp (which makes it a total of 466 whp) with just a tune, then that's a different story.

No, what I am saying is pay attention to the delta more than the peak numbers. You really expect every M156 to be identical in all conditions? It is an impossibility. You have paid enough attention to DA to know how this affects the motor. Will someone in Colorodo sue Mercedes because they don't have the 507 hp that was guaranteed at sea level?

They are saying they gained 47 whp and proved they did with the graph. There may be a car that gets more, or gets less, but the point is the gain from baseline to peak. Look at the difference and curve more than just focusing on peak numbers and attempting to compare them to different cars. It isn't an exact science, there are variables.

Someone is not going to get this tune and only see 5 whp or something absurd but there is no way to guarantee everyone gets 47 whp but that is a REALISTIC expectation if the car has a similar baseline.

A car that baselines 419 whp won't just add 47 whp on top of that, it does not work like that. They will all get to a similar peak despite different baselines. If you dyno 419 what you can take away from this is you can definitely expect to be in the 440's. Same thing if you dyno 380 something.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

I'm not undermining Weistec's achievement by any means, so please don't imply so. I respect Steve and the whole Weistec and admire all they've done. In fact, I may get a tune myself. My argument was mainly with the amount of gain a standard tune can make may depend on how healthy the car is doing before the tune. For example, I've seen a couple of E63s put down 378 whp on a dynojet SAE corrected. I'm sure many tuners can tune that car and claim 50+ whp from just a tune, but in reality, that car was not running up to par to begin with. AMG works very hard to produce these engine in an as identical form as possible. They'll be a slight variation here and there, but not in the level you are thinking of.
Tunes also evolve over time, they do not stay stagnant.

I'm not saying you are undermining what they did but you said it was improbable. My opinion is that it is extremely probable based on what they have already demonstrated.

Yes, the engines are all mechanically similar. But density altitude alone will affect output. Mechanical similarity does not mean output in different conditions will always be similar. Cars broken in harder for example tend to dyno more or cars with more miles on them than motors that are brand new.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Again, I am not claiming they weren't able to do so.... I would like to see a 420 whp stock E63 gain +47 whp from only a tune.

You can't just add 47 to any baseline. I would love to see a naturally aspirated M156 tune only put down 467 whp but that is not a realistic expectation.

If you want to compare dyno results the same dyno and the same correction will show gains or loss on the same car. But those gains or loss will not always translate to the track. That is why track results will always be better than dyno results. Basic stuff here.

I have seen gains on a dyno and worse results on the track. A car simply does not perform the same on the dyno as it does on the track.

I would not say track results are "better" as much as they are different. These are all pieces of a larger picture.

If you see substantial gains on the dyno and do not see results on the track something is wrong. There is no way 47 whp will not show up on the track.

Crank figured, Drive train loss, whp. The Baseline dyno was obviously not a good run. Were both runs on the same day?

What do you mean obviously not a good run? Based on what? Are you familiar with that E63 or dynojet? There are cars that have dyno'd lower and those that have dyno'd more. I don't understand this arbitrary standard that all E63's must dyno high and what some guys think they should based on crank ratings.

No I wouldn't, there is no way that much horsepower is not showing up. Even 10 whp will if it is a real 10 whp.

Sadly you are wrong. DD GT3 is just one example who just posted. I could show you endless dyno results of mine from my Chevelle, My Charger, My STI showing more than much gain on the dyno and no results on the track. I feel in this case your track experience is lacking.

^Track results are MUCH better. I had 30-40whp gain on the dyno and that didnt show on the track

Oh I forgot to add, your car is a P31 so a different factory tune than we see here. Also, your tune was not this tune but done by OE Tuning.

I think we saw from your results that a tuned standard car and a P31 are close so stating one can expect the same peak for both makes sense. The P31 is definitely aggressive for a factory tune.

Also, your gain was on a different dyno as well, different tuner, and you had adaptability issues from what I understand. Your 30-40 whp didn't show up because it didn't stay there. So it is not valid to say 40 whp did not show at the track as if the ECU did not adapt it would have. There is no way for 40 whp to not show in a trap speed.

Sadly you are wrong. DD GT3 is just one example who just posted. I could show you endless dyno results of mine from my Chevelle, My Charger, My STI showing more than much gain on the dyno and no results on the track. I feel in this case your track experience is lacking.

Sadly I'm not as assuming the exact same conditions, same launch, and all other variables being the exact same such as weight and fuel 10 hp HAS to show up. Roughly 10 whp to 1 mph. Differing conditions will account for your results with a small amount of hp.

40 whp is not something that won't show up as that is almost 4 MPH.

Sorry, but I've likely had many more passes than you at a much younger age since I have been doing this since I was 17. I think you may lack some experience as everyone should know the relation between horsepower and trap as well as the rules of thumb in drag racing. That is why you can extrapolate horsepower from your trap.

Please show me an example of your car gaining 40 whp and it not showing in the trap speed, I'd love to see it.

Perhaps you should look at my post above to see why DD GT3 RD is a different situation not to mention not a car running or ever having ran this tune.

What do you mean obviously not a good run? Based on what? Are you familiar with that E63 or dynojet? There are cars that have dyno'd lowered and those that have dyno'd more. I don't understand this arbitrary standard that all E63's must dyno high and what some guys think they should.

You cant have it both ways. If this dyno came in low on the baseline it would also come in low on the max whp. The max is on par with what we know this platform can do from many other tuners. So this revolutionary step forward in tuning that you are stating is taking place on this platform is a bit unrealistic and premature in my opinion.

Sadly I'm not as assuming the exact same conditions, same launch, and all other variables being the exact same such as weight and fuel 10 hp HAS to show up. Roughly 10 whp to 1 mph. Differing conditions will account for your results with a small amount of hp.

Again, Dyno HP will not always show up on the track due to different variables. Thats the part you are not getting. You can see amazing numbers on the dyno that will not take place at the track.

40 whp is not something that won't show up as that is almost 4 MPH.

If you can keep the 40 whp at the track.. sure. If the ECU adapts to the different conditions you will see nothing.

Sorry, but I've likely had many more passes than you at a much younger age since I have been doing this since I was 17. I think you may lack some experience as everyone should know the relation between horsepower and trap as well as the rules of thumb in drag racing. That is why you can extrapolate horsepower from your trap.

Joe, you are a kid. 17? Your 27. A whole 10 years Joe? LOL. I have been turning wrenches and drag racing for 20 years. LOL.

Please show me an example of your car gaining 40 whp and it not showing in the trap speed, I'd love to see it.

Perhaps you should look at my post above to see why DD GT3 RD is a different situation not to mention not a car running or ever having ran this tune.

Please show me an example of your car gaining 40 whp and it not showing in the trap speed, I'd love to see it.

Without wasting my time searching through my dyno sheets ill tell you how. I gained about 50 whp on my 66. When I ran her down the track my suspension couldnt handle the increased power and the car actually did worse than when it had less power. I later dialed in the suspension and was able to see the fruits of my labor, but not that day.

Just one simple example how the dyno numbers mean crap if your car is not dialed in for them. Real world adds real problems.

You cant have it both ways. If this dyno came in low on the baseline it would also come in low on the max whp. The max is on par with what we know this platform can do from many other tuners. So this revolutionary step forward in tuning that you are stating is taking place on this platform is a bit unrealistic and premature in my opinion.

No, it wouldn't. Tuned cars usually end up around the same peak. Baselines tend to vary more as the factory tune is nowhere near as aggressive.

There is no revolution I'm talking about. Trust me, I asked Weistec about this. They are doing things other tuners aren't. What is premature is forming your conclusion without all the necessary information. Rather than *thinking* you know why don't you do what I did and contact them directly? They are not approaching this in the exact same manner as other tuners and once again have clearly demonstrated an incredible grasp of the M156 that others have yet to match as far tuning complexity.

Just earlier you said the peak HP was not out of line at all compared to your own results, interesting. I hope we don't see more flip flopping.

Again, Dyno HP will not always show up on the track due to different variables. Thats the part you are not getting. You can see amazing numbers on the dyno that will not take place at the track.

I just told you assuming the variables are the same horsepower will show up. If you gained 10 hp it will show unless there is a mitigating factor in the conditions. What part of this was not clear?

Originally Posted by propain

If you can keep the 40 whp at the track.. sure. If the ECU adapts to the different conditions you will see nothing.

If the ecu adapts and you no longer have the same curve you did when you gained 40 whp on the dyno then you no longer have that 40 whp. So explain to me again how 40 whp that is there will not show? How do you gain 40 whp and not show a trap improvement in similar conditions? I have never seen that happen in my 11 years of drag racing.

Originally Posted by propain

Joe, you are a kid. 17? Your 27. A whole 10 years Joe? LOL. I have been turning wrenches and drag racing for 20 years. LOL.

Wow, and in those 9 years you have on me you still didn't learn basic drag racing rules of thumb? And in those 9 extra years (and I still doubt you have the number of passes and track days I do) you saw a time where you added 40 horsepower and the trap speed did not change? I would love to see those slips. I can show mine where I added only ~20 whp and gained 2-3 MPH.

I'm a kid? I'm a 28 year old adult last time I checked who definitely has spent far more time reading about, researching, and applying this topic than you have over literally the past decade on more forums than I care to count. You may be surprised but there are many things I could teach you and perhaps you should listen from time to time. Your age bares no correlation to your knowledge as time spent applying and researching it are far more important factors. I have seen more than enough to come to an educated conclusion as to what you know, show me the 40 whp not showing up in a slip, please.

No, it wouldn't. Tuned cars usually end up around the same peak. Baselines tend to vary more as the factory tune is nowhere near as aggressive.

There is no revolution I'm talking about. Trust me, I asked Weistec about this. They are doing things other tuners aren't. What is premature is forming your conclusion without all the necessary information. Rather than *thinking* you know why don't you do what I did and contact them directly? They are not approaching this in the exact same manner as other tuners and once again have clearly demonstrated an incredible grasp of the M156 that others have yet to match as far tuning complexity.

You seem to be drunk off this company. You are quite the cheerleader for them, no question. The peak numbers don't indicate anything different that other tuners have done. Calling them will do nothing. Its just like dyno numbers and the SC numbers. I dont care about numbers. I care about real world results. Always have, always will.

Just earlier you said the peak HP was not out of line at all compared to your own results, interesting. I hope we don't see more flip flopping.

Ahh Joe, always looking for some Drama. "More flip flopping" you mean when I told you exactly how I felt about you? LOL. The peak numbers are not out of line as stated above. Try not to let your emotions get the best of you.