So you are saying believers don't spend eternity in heaven? Can't you see the inconsistency your view causes?

I believe believer's will spend eternity in heaven.

"For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thess. 4:15-18)

Because you are claiming that child molesters, murders, thieves, etc who die unrepentant will share heaven with the rest of us.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for lifeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)

What value is Psalms 19:7: "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul;"? From your POV, this verse is meaningless - anything unlawful is meaningless, hence, you unwittingly put good and evil on equal footing as far as salvation goes (Isaiah 5:20).

I agree that "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;"? I don't see how this implies that God will not save all mankind.

Why should anyone worry about raping, murdering, stealing, if they are still going to be saved?

"What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing? May it not be coming to that! We, who died to sin, how shall we still be living in it? Or are you ignorant that whoever are baptized into Christ Jesus, are baptized into His death? We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should be walking in newness of life. For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death, nevertheless we shall be of the resurrection also, knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin, for one who dies has been justified from Sin." (Romans 6:1-7)

"What, then? Are we privileged? Undoubtedly not, for we previously charge both Jews and Greeks to be all under sin, according as it is written, that "Not one is just" -- not even one. Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God. "All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!" (Romans 3:9-12)

"Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds, that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." (Romans 5:20,21)

"What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!
For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying."
Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth."
Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -- us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also." (Romans 9:14-24)

As I said earlier, this is a demonic doctrine to get people to not only not witness, but also to not care about salvation.

I'm working on a video about creation and the scripture right now to show to my friends and relatives. I care about my salvation more than anything there is to care about.

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Yours is a ticket to do anything you want, since it doesn't matter in the end.

"Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,..." (Romans 5:20)

Why would I want to sin (not saying I don't and am perfect) when I know that Christ died to give me this freedom?

Go to BlueLetterBible.com and look up the Greek for this phrase, and also compare and contrast between versions. Even the most liberal, pro-Calvinist translators agree this should be translated "desires" or "wants", not "wills".

We'd have to get to the Greek word itself and then look at all the instances where that word occurs in scripture to find its true meaning, but if we did that, I believe "wills" would be the proper translation and it goes along with the fact that, God is "operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,..." (Ephesians 1:11)

God does not need to desire or wish for something. He operates all according to the counsel of his will. He makes whatever happens happen. He is the supreme subjector and placer of all.

How is what you are doing any different than JWs or Mormons who find a verse that contradicts their view, and then make up their own definition of the word(s) of that verse, in spite of what the experts in that language say (often with no ax to grind since they are not believers)?

I don't know everything these groups teach. I've heard Mormons believe Adam is god and that one day they will become a god. I've heard JW's believe Jesus was an angel. These groups have many wrong doctrines and I don't say that all of mine are correct. The best way to tell what is the truth is to read the scriptures in their original languages and find out what every word means by comparing all of their instances in the scripture.

Finally, in reading through your posts, you seem to hang your hat mostly on 1 Tim 4:10 (I love the way AFJ stated it - your misinterpretation has led to systematic error).

I believe this verse just says it most plainly. Many other verses say the same thing.

I agree Jesus is the Savior of all men, but not all men will accept this!

So you agree with me! The fact that not all men will presently believe in his death, entombment, and resurrection, does not mean that they won't eventually and that God is not the savior of all mankind.

How does the following verse fit in your theology:

(Matt23:37 [NKJV])"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers herchicks under her[size="2"] wings, but you were not willing!

This affecting farewell closes His mission to the holy city. If they will not have Him, He must leave them exposed to the powers of darkness. With Him the Presence leaves the temple tenantless. Its empty grandeur continues for forty years and is then laid level with the dust.

[quote name='Teejay' timestamp='1312732070' post='73853']
[quote name='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1312699302' post='73833']
What you all have to understand is that the scripture plainly says: "God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)

"[God] Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

So you guys are interpreting eternal torment (or eternal seperation from God) into the other scripture, because nowhere is this plainly said. It is plainly said that God will save all mankind. This will be through his son's death, entombment, and resurrection.

Why would you want to be called a Baptist or even a Christian for that matter when the scripture never calls us who believe in Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection those words. We are referred to as saints, but I don't like using that word because people will get the wrong idea. I'm no saint in that sense lol, but we are saints because of what Christ did.

What is this "Fatherhood of God" business? The only way God becomes your father is when you believe the good news of Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection.

My point was, that even if the scripture refers to Christ as God (which it does), it does not follow, that you should assume he is his own father, "the only true God" (John 17:3).

I believe Christ is God's son, not his father and that he was created.

"'Now this is saying [Jesus Christ] the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: ..." (Revelation 3:14)

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)

As Christ said, God the father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).
Christ is his image and the holy spirit is God's spirit. Just as it says. If his spirit were a living "person", why would Christ's spirit not be a living "person" and a member of this trinity?

Like I said, hell is an english word. It was translated from several different words. These words did not have the same meaning. Thats why they were different words. Please go through your Bible and where it says hell, find the original Greek word. Do this for all instances of hell and you will see how discordant the translators were. When they didn't understand what that particular word meant, they just said, must be our idea of hell and they translated it hell. None of the words indicate an "eternal" seperation from God. God has a plan, a beginning and an end to his plans and at the end he will be "the savior of all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10).

Thats what death is. The opposite of life.

Christ "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16).

The cambric of the priest and the purple of the king in the rich man's garments indicate Israel as the royal priesthood. His merry times are due to Israel's special blessings. The Pharisees looked down upon the sinners and publicans and gave them a place like that of Lazarus, outside, with the dogs, even as the prodigal was afar off with the swine. They had little more than the unclean aliens, who were called curs by the religious Jews.
The prodigal, the rich man, and Lazarus all are represented as being dead. The prodigal and the rich man show the nation in apostasy. Lazarus, being comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the faithful remnant. So long as the nation, as such, is dead, neither Lazarus nor the rich man can claim the blessings of the kingdom. The continued persecution and hatred of the Jews by all nations is aptly pictured by the flames in which one of them found himself. The place in Abraham's bosom is no less faithful a figure of the comfort which came to those who believed. Abraham's bosom cannot be literal, for he is dead and even were he alive the picture of thousands of believers in his literal bosom is preposterous. Since this is so it follows that all of the scene is figurative, for if Abraham is not literally there, neither is Lazarus nor the rich man.

Verse 12 makes it apparent that the woman possessing the medium was quite surprised to see Samuel. She may have seen apparitions through the medium previously, but there was obviously a different character to this appearance. The fact of her surprise at the true appearance of Samuel suggests that her customary dealings with the dead should be discredited.

Samuel was a prophet, and Saul sought him, though the means were wrong. God Himself answered Saul by producing Samuel to speak to him. This man was truly Samuel in resurrection. He was standing up. This was not a vision conjured up by the woman, but Samuel himself resurrected from the dead by the power of God.

I'm not trying to doubt you, but does it say he came from Abraham's bosom? It sounds like God brought him back to life from the dead (no-life) for that moment.

But when God says all, I believe he means it. If he didn't, he couldn't become "All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). Which is the goal he is "operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11) towards.

You should check the Greek for what your Bible is saying "desires". The Greek says that he "wills" it be so. God can't desire or wish for something. He is "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,..." (Ephesians 1:11) Thats means God operates everything. He is in control of reality.

I wasn't asking. That was a link to an article about "What is Death?" Did you read it to see where I'm coming from?

I agree with all of this. Nowhere do these passages go against 1 Timothy 4:10. All of these verses are talking about Israel and their kingdom. After all this is said and done, God will save all mankind just as he says.

Research the Greek for eternal. This is talking about the future judgement. Not forever.

Jesus came to save us from our sin.

Right, the problem is how your reading aion and its other variations. "Ages of the ages". A better word would be "durations". They have a beginning and an end.

I don't think thats the proper translation. It should be "eons of the eons". Which are periods of time that begin and end.

This fire is unquenchable (won't dissipate on its own), but its not eternal or going to last forever.

Where in the scripture is this plainly said?

"And He [Christ] is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:18-20)

"For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)

I realize your trying to help TeeJay, but this is alot of text and typing and I don't have time to type out a long response to each point. As I said in the beginning I believe its clear that God will save all mankind and that he operates all things according to the counsel of his will. I'd recommend just reading this website to understand how I came to this understanding: Concordant Expositions, but I don't think were going to see eye to eye and that you're going to convince me that the scriptures teach "eternal seperation from God" for he saves "all mankind". God has a goal, a beginning and an end to his plans. At the end of this he will save all mankind as he says, so that he can be "All in all".
e sa
Chris, 1 Tim. 2:4 does not say that God our Savior "wills" all men to be saved. My Bible reads that God our Savior "desires" all men to be saved. But most men do not want to have anything to do with Him. He can't grant men the freedom to love or reject Him and then force men to love Him. That's not possible, even for God. And it's not logical. God can't be illogical, for then He would deny Himself.

TeeJay

Chris,

I labeled you a "Universalist" and you replied that you were not and that you didn't know what the label meant. I find you to be disingenuous in this regard. Believing that no one will go to hell for eternity and that even Satan and his demons will be saved is not exactly a normal Christian belief. I did not believe Obama concerning the Right Reverend Wrong's church in Chicago, and I don't buy your reply either. I know that you did not come up with this belief by yourself. You had to be raised in it or you got saved in it. And you are well studied and grounded in it. This would be the same as a Mormon believing in Joseph Smith's teachings and not knowing he was Mormon. Perhaps I got to harsh here and Fred may kick me off this site?

I asked you if Jesus is God? After much equivocation, I finally got: "I believe Christ is God's son, not his father and that he was created." And, "Christ is his [God the Father's] image and the holy spirit is God's spirit." I submit that when you are witnessing for your church or your belief system, you are not up front with exactly what you believe. The Mormons are the same way, and most Mormons have no idea as to what their church is up to. But I want to point out that you still have no answered my question: Is Jesus God? I will make it a simple multiple choice: a) He is God. He is not God. Please answer.

I signed off my post with, "Your brother in Christ as well, TeeJay" I wish to retract that. You become a brother to me when you accept Jesus for Who He is. He is the I AM. He is God. When you do this, the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the Body of Christ where you are sealed. And then you are truly my brother in Christ. The jesus you are worshipping is not the Jesus Christ of Scripture. If you were a Mormon, I would tell you the same thing. They don't accept Jesus as God. The JW's don't either. The muslims don's either. The diety of Jesus Christ is what separates all false religions from the Truth.

Forget hell as being eternal or temporal. That's the least of your problems. God will not send you to hell for being confused. I will most probably be required to attend some remedial classes in heaven. But he will send you to hell for not accepting Him for who He is--God.

Your not understanding that the scriptural expressions for Ã¢â‚¬Å“GodÃ¢â‚¬Â signify neither supremacy nor unoriginatedness of being. And, these terms may be used either in a relative sense or in an absolute senseÃ¢â‚¬â€œeven when used in a literal sense and in a faithful sense. Ã¢â‚¬Å“GodÃ¢â‚¬Â is a title which speaks of Subjectorhood or Placership. God is not a persons name.

Is Jesus God? I will make it a simple multiple choice: a) He is God. He is not God. Please answer.

"for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

So no, Jesus Christ is not the "one God", who is his as well as our father. He is our "one Lord". We could still call him God because he is a subjector or placer, but not the ultimate subjector or placer, who subjects and places all other subjectors and placers, who is his father.

Metaphorically (in the sense that Ã¢â‚¬Å“this One is [i.e., represents] that OneÃ¢â‚¬Â), Christ Himself, as GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Image, Ã¢â‚¬Å“isÃ¢â‚¬Â the true God, even as He Ã¢â‚¬Å“isÃ¢â‚¬Â life eonian (1 John 5:20b). And, even literally, in Himself, Christ is the great God (i.e., Placer) and Saviour of Whom Paul speaks in Titus 2:13. Nevertheless, it is ChristÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s own God, His God and Father, Who is the Supreme and only true God.

I signed off my post with, "Your brother in Christ as well, TeeJay" I wish to retract that.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Your still my brother in Christ because we both believe that he died for our sins, was entombed, and roused the third day. This is the good news that saves men.

"Now I am making known to you, brethren, the evangel which I bring to you, which also you accepted, in which also you stand, through which also you are saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly. For I give over to you among the first what also I accepted, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures . . . thus we are heralding and thus you believe." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4,11)

But he will send you to hell for not accepting Him for who He is--God.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for lifeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)

Chris, I did not ask you if he is "the one god." I'll ask again, Is Jesus Christ God? I want you to either deny Him or accep Him.

What is your definition of "god"?

The actual word as used in scripture is not a name for anybody, it is a title. When I read what your asking me, seeing as how I believe the word god is a title meaning subjector or placer, I'm reading, "Is Jesus Christ God (a subjector or placer)?" To which I would have to answer yes. If your asking me, "Is Jesus Christ God (the highest authority in the universe [the number one subjector or placer])?" I would have to say no. That position belongs to his father, who Christ himself refers to as "the only true God" (John 17:3).

[quote] name='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1312744951' post='73865']
What is your definition of "god"?

The actual word as used in scripture is not a name for anybody, it is a title. When I read what your asking me, seeing as how I believe the word god is a title meaning subjector or placer, I'm reading, "Is Jesus Christ God (a subjector or placer)?" To which I would have to answer yes. If your asking me, "Is Jesus Christ God (the highest authority in the universe [the number one subjector or placer])?" I would have to say no. That position belongs to his father, who Christ himself refers to as "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Are you getting what I am saying?
[/quote]

Yes, Chris, I get exactly what you're saying.

You claim to worship a jesus who is not God. This violates the First Commandment.

"Jesus is not God." Do you agree with this?

Years ago, I had a Mormon neighbor. I could not get him to admit that Jesus was God if I held a gun to his head. All cults deny the deity of Jesus.

ChrisCarlascio , like most all false doctrines, this is a ploy by Satan to give people an excuse to not witness.

Of course there is a reason to witness! I was dead and have come to life! We love because He first loved us! I never understood unconditional love and my family was starving for the love of Christ. We are already doing so much better. If someone does not have the Spirit then there is a reason to witness!

Look at Romans 10:13 in context. Whose name are we to call on?Can we pray to Jesus? While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”--Acts 7:59.

Worship Jesus? Ephesians 5:19, Revelation 5

See also and compare Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34-37

Anyone who denies the Son doesn't have the Father, either.--1 John 2:23

Romans10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1312776944' post='73888']
Of course there is a reason to witness! I was dead and have come to life! We love because He first loved us! I never understood unconditional love and my family was starving for the love of Christ. We are already doing so much better. If someone does not have the Spirit then there is a reason to witness!
[/quote]

Chris,

Your are still dead. Jesus said, "I am the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me." Your jesus is not the true Jesus of the Bible.

You asked me to define God. If you were alive, I would not have to explain Him to you. But I will for one reason. I want your denial of Him to be without excuse. You, Chris, exist. You owe your existence to your parents. And your parents to their parents and so on. Eventually, you must find a Being that is self-existent. By "self-existent" I mean that kind of existence which atheists/evolutionists attribute to the whole of the physical universe and theists attribute to God. What exists on its own (self-existent) must have existed from all eternity past. If anything else could make it begin to exist then it would not exist on its own but because of something else. And it must also exist incessantly; that is, it can't cease to exist and then begin again. For having once ceased to be, it obviously could not recall itself to existence, and if anythin else recalled it, it would then be a dependent being.

In Gen. 1:1, Ã¢â‚¬Å“In the beginning GodÃ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â Here Ã¢â‚¬Å“GodÃ¢â‚¬Â is a plural word Ã¢â‚¬Å“Elohim.Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“ElÃ¢â‚¬Â is the singular for God. Ã¢â‚¬Å“ElohimÃ¢â‚¬Â is the plural. A good example is Ã¢â‚¬Å“cherubÃ¢â‚¬Â (singular) and Ã¢â‚¬Å“cherubimÃ¢â‚¬Â (plural). But in Gen. 1:1, the verb Ã¢â‚¬Å“createdÃ¢â‚¬Â is singular. If we translate this first passage literally, it reads: Ã¢â‚¬Å“In the beginning, Gods He createdÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.Ã¢â‚¬Â, clearly showing the plurality of the God Head (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). The very first verse of the Bible shows us that God is a plurality (not multiple or separate Mormon gods). Moses was an educated man and he did not make a grammatical error. Ã¢â‚¬Å“So let us make man in our image.Ã¢â‚¬Â In Gen. 19:24, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Then the Lord [God] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord [God] out of heaven.Ã¢â‚¬Â The Lord is one, but He is a plurality.

Chris, I would like to hear you clearly deny that Jesus Christ is God. This denial of Him seems to be sticking in your craw. Why?

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

Oh, I am afraid to ask my pastor about this one.

We had a hard time going over the verses in Proverbs that refer to wisdom. I was sure that they were speaking of Jesus, and I was upset at my study that day... but reading them in different translations finally made it click. Wisdom is simply wisdom in those verses.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1312818831' post='73901']
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

Oh, I am afraid to ask my pastor about this one.

We had a hard time going over the verses in Proverbs that refer to wisdom. I was sure that they were speaking of Jesus, and I was upset at my study that day... but reading them in different translations finally made it click. Wisdom is simply wisdom in those verses.
[/quote]

ME,

There's not much use in quoting Scripture to Chris. His worldview (Universalism) will not allow him to admit that Jesus Christ is God. But denying Jesus is sticking in his craw. Notice he can't really say, "Jesus Christ is not God." Any member of a cult--be it Mormon, JW, Mulsim--will never admit that Jesus is God. Jesus' deity is what separates Jesus from all the false prophets and religions that come down the road. Universalism is nothing new.

There's not much use in quoting Scripture to Chris. His worldview (Universalism) will not allow him to admit that Jesus Christ is God. But denying Jesus is sticking in his craw. Notice he can't really say, "Jesus Christ is not God." Any member of a cult--be it Mormon, JW, Mulsim--will never admit that Jesus is God. Jesus' deity is what separates Jesus from all the false prophets and religions that come down the road. Universalism is nothing new.

TeeJay

With God all things are possible. He has given us His word. It is true that most Christians cannot use the scriptures to reason with someone who has been taught these beliefs. They often use scriptures that are already explained away by the sect. I know which scriptures are convincing and which aren't because I have been there. Look who you are talking to. Scripture is what convinced me.

You asked me to define God. If you were alive, I would not have to explain Him to you. But I will for one reason. I want your denial of Him to be without excuse. You, Chris, exist. You owe your existence to your parents. And your parents to their parents and so on. Eventually, you must find a Being that is self-existent. By "self-existent" I mean that kind of existence which atheists/evolutionists attribute to the whole of the physical universe and theists attribute to God. What exists on its own (self-existent) must have existed from all eternity past. If anything else could make it begin to exist then it would not exist on its own but because of something else.

Do you have Biblical evidence that this applies to Jesus?

And it must also exist incessantly; that is, it can't cease to exist and then begin again. For having once ceased to be, it obviously could not recall itself to existence, and if anything else recalled it, it would then be a dependent being.

In all honesty I didn't see how this could apply to Jesus. Acts 2:24; 3:15 Until I read John 2:19 and 10:18. This discussion is very beneficial to me.

In Gen. 1:1, Ã¢â‚¬Å“In the beginning GodÃ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â Here Ã¢â‚¬Å“GodÃ¢â‚¬Â is a plural word Ã¢â‚¬Å“Elohim.Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“ElÃ¢â‚¬Â is the singular for God. Ã¢â‚¬Å“ElohimÃ¢â‚¬Â is the plural. A good example is Ã¢â‚¬Å“cherubÃ¢â‚¬Â (singular) and Ã¢â‚¬Å“cherubimÃ¢â‚¬Â (plural). But in Gen. 1:1, the verb Ã¢â‚¬Å“createdÃ¢â‚¬Â is singular. If we translate this first passage literally, it reads: Ã¢â‚¬Å“In the beginning, Gods He createdÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.Ã¢â‚¬Â, clearly showing the plurality of the God Head (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). The very first verse of the Bible shows us that God is a plurality (not multiple or separate Mormon gods). Moses was an educated man and he did not make a grammatical error. Ã¢â‚¬Å“So let us make man in our image.Ã¢â‚¬Â In Gen. 19:24, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Then the Lord [God] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord [God] out of heaven.Ã¢â‚¬Â The Lord is one, but He is a plurality.

Thanks for bringing that up. I was supposed to research this for my next study.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1312826764' post='73907']
With God all things are possible. He has given us His word. It is true that most Christians cannot use the scriptures to reason with someone who has been taught these beliefs. They often use scriptures that are already explained away by the sect. I know which scriptures are convincing and which aren't because I have been there. Look who you are talking to. Scripture is what convinced me.
[/quote]

ME, I'm so glad that you accepted the true Jesus. But what I'm arguing is that someone can know a matter is true with the mind but his heart will not let him accept it. This is what God is dealing with--our hearts. Jesus said that man's heart is deceitful above all things. The Pharaoh in Egypt knew in his mind that Moses' God was the real deal, but each time God did a miracle, God shoved the truth of His existence in Pharaoh's face. People do not love you when you prove them wrong. it is exceedingly difficult for one to humble himself and admit that he is wrong or a sinner, or that God exists.

Chris, this old man has been a little harsh with you. But I do not want you to spend eternity in hell apart from your Creator God--or apart for me. You seem like a nice guy. But it is crucial that you understand and believe that Jesus Christ is God the Son. And "in Jesus, the fulness of the Godhead dwells." Do I understand the Triune God. No. My pea brain can't even begin to comprehend tis. But we can seee combined to form the Triune God in His creation:

Nobel prizewinning physicist, Richard Feynman categorizes everything in the physical universe as operating in three different phenomena: electromagnetism, gravitational, and nuclear phenomena. In his classic QED (quantum electrodynamics), Feynman wrote:

"Most of the phenomena you are familiar with involve the interaction of light and electrons--all of chemistry and biology, for example. The only phenomena that are not covered by this theory are phenomena of gravitaton and nuclear phenomena; everything else is contained in this theory. Is there a limited number of bits and pieces that can be compounded to form all the phenomena that involve light and and electrons? Is there a limited number of "letters" in this language of quantum elecgtrodynamics that can be combined to form "words" and "phrases" that describe nearly every phenomenon of Nature? The answer is yes; the number is three."

A triune theme flows throughout our perception of the universe. Space exists in three dimensions, height, width and length, as does time in past, present and future. We experience matter in three states, solid, liquid, and gas, and the electro-magnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral. The three primary colors in pigment are red, blue and yellow. In light waves the three primary colors are red, grfeen, and blue which combine to create the full rainbow of virtually infinite hues. Mathematical values are negative, zero, and positive. And the triange is the strongest shape in construction. Can we assume that God is trying to tell us something?

What exists on its own (self-existent) must have existed from all eternity past.

By this definition, Jesus Christ is not God. The scripture says:

"'Now this is saying [Jesus Christ] the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: ..." (Revelation 3:14)

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)

Jesus Christ was created by his father. He was the original or first creation of the father. Every other creation came out of the father and through Jesus (1 Cor.8:6).

In Gen. 1:1, Ã¢â‚¬Å“In the beginning GodÃ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â Here Ã¢â‚¬Å“GodÃ¢â‚¬Â is a plural word Ã¢â‚¬Å“Elohim.Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“ElÃ¢â‚¬Â is the singular for God. Ã¢â‚¬Å“ElohimÃ¢â‚¬Â is the plural. A good example is Ã¢â‚¬Å“cherubÃ¢â‚¬Â (singular) and Ã¢â‚¬Å“cherubimÃ¢â‚¬Â (plural). But in Gen. 1:1, the verb Ã¢â‚¬Å“createdÃ¢â‚¬Â is singular. If we translate this first passage literally, it reads: Ã¢â‚¬Å“In the beginning, Gods He createdÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.Ã¢â‚¬Â, clearly showing the plurality of the God Head (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). The very first verse of the Bible shows us that God is a plurality (not multiple or separate Mormon gods). Moses was an educated man and he did not make a grammatical error. Ã¢â‚¬Å“So let us make man in our image.Ã¢â‚¬Â In Gen. 19:24, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Then the Lord [God] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord [God] out of heaven.Ã¢â‚¬Â The Lord is one, but He is a plurality.

I think the idea behind Elohim is, one working through many. That is, one God working through many agencies (ex. people or whatever the case may be) to achieve his goal. I'm not saying these agencies would be God or a god. I can't be sure of this idea either, but still, it dosen't mean that Elohim would have to be referring to the idea of the trinity.

Chris, this old man has been a little harsh with you.

Thank you. I apologize if I have been harsh to you.

But I do not want you to spend eternity in hell apart from your Creator God--or apart for me.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for lifeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)

You seem like a nice guy.

Thank you. So do you.

But it is crucial that you understand and believe that Jesus Christ is God the Son. And "in Jesus, the fulness of the Godhead dwells." Do I understand the Triune God. No. My pea brain can't even begin to comprehend tis. But we can seee combined to form the Triune God in His creation:

Nobel prizewinning physicist, Richard Feynman categorizes everything in the physical universe as operating in three different phenomena: electromagnetism, gravitational, and nuclear phenomena. In his classic QED (quantum electrodynamics), Feynman wrote:

"Most of the phenomena you are familiar with involve the interaction of light and electrons--all of chemistry and biology, for example. The only phenomena that are not covered by this theory are phenomena of gravitaton and nuclear phenomena; everything else is contained in this theory. Is there a limited number of bits and pieces that can be compounded to form all the phenomena that involve light and and electrons? Is there a limited number of "letters" in this language of quantum elecgtrodynamics that can be combined to form "words" and "phrases" that describe nearly every phenomenon of Nature? The answer is yes; the number is three."

A triune theme flows throughout our perception of the universe. Space exists in three dimensions, height, width and length, as does time in past, present and future. We experience matter in three states, solid, liquid, and gas, and the electro-magnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral. The three primary colors in pigment are red, blue and yellow. In light waves the three primary colors are red, grfeen, and blue which combine to create the full rainbow of virtually infinite hues. Mathematical values are negative, zero, and positive. And the triange is the strongest shape in construction. Can we assume that God is trying to tell us something?

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

Oh, I am afraid to ask my pastor about this one.

When God is all in all, every creature of his hand will then be close to his heart. God will not occupy a small fraction of our lives, nor even half or three-fourths. He will be everything to us. Every occurrence, each incident, large or small, important or trivial, will come to us consciously as a gratuity given by God, and it will bring a constant response of worship.

Its hard answering all these questions because I'm trying to also make that video, but please, lets start this again now, ask me some things and I will try my hardest to explain why I hold these views so we can try and work everything out. Itd be nice if we can work on one scripture or idea at a time so we don't have to post huge walls of text everytime.

It's interesting that you brought up wisdom and the book of Proverbs. We had a guest speaker this past Sunday who spoke on Proverbs 8 and how it clearly shows that wisdom is, in fact, speaking of Jesus. There are scores of Scripture that (speaking of Jesus) mirror many verses in Proverbs 8.

[quote] name='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1312907024' post='73919']
By this definition, Jesus Christ is not God. The scripture says:

"'Now this is saying [Jesus Christ] the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: ..." (Revelation 3:14)

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)

Jesus Christ was created by his father. He was the original or first creation of the father. Every other creation came out of the father and through Jesus (1 Cor.8:6).

I think the idea behind Elohim is, one working through many. That is, one God working through many agencies (ex. people or whatever the case may be) to achieve his goal. I'm not saying these agencies would be God or a god. I can't be sure of this idea either, but still, it dosen't mean that Elohim would have to be referring to the idea of the trinity.

Thank you. I apologize if I have been harsh to you.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for lifeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)

When God is all in all, every creature of his hand will then be close to his heart. God will not occupy a small fraction of our lives, nor even half or three-fourths. He will be everything to us. Every occurrence, each incident, large or small, important or trivial, will come to us consciously as a gratuity given by God, and it will bring a constant response of worship.

Its hard answering all these questions because I'm trying to also make that video, but please, lets start this again now, ask me some things and I will try my hardest to explain why I hold these views so we can try and work everything out. Itd be nice if we can work on one scripture or idea at a time so we don't have to post huge walls of text everytime.[/quote]

Chris,

I know that many are hitting you with a lot of questions. But I just want you to either accept Jesus as God or deny Him as God. Again. Is Jesus God? a) Yes. No.