I'm not looking for a trade although that could be one answer. I think LanierFan has a great point about the changes in rosters league wide. Our athleticism was at one time an edge. Now most teams have increased their athleticism. The next step is speed. We don't have any raw burners on this squad. Arroyo certainly is not the most fleet of foot. Hunter is fast but strictly a specialist.

Wins/Losses aside, some changes might be in order. This Pistons squad seems to be having trouble with their defensive identity. I get concerned anytime a coach says that the players know what they are doing. Great coaches impose their will on their teams. Popovich does it. Brown did it. Jackson does it. The only way around that is to have leadership like Zeke and Laimbeer who would personally take matters into their own hands.

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Dang. I'm gonna miss lemonpen's signature. It was funny.

I dunno Micro. I think for sure Flip needs to kick their butts for sleeping through the first 3 quarters every game, but it's early in the season and the increase in offense seems to more than make up for the extra points we give up.

I'm looking forward to the next game. I dunno if it's on the road or at home...but I believe they will win against anyone they play. Let's give it a few more games.

Wins/Losses aside, some changes might be in order. This Pistons squad seems to be having trouble with their defensive identity. I get concerned anytime a coach says that the players know what they are doing. Great coaches impose their will on their teams. Popovich does it. Brown did it. Jackson does it. The only way around that is to have leadership like Zeke and Laimbeer who would personally take matters into their own hands.

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Then the talk should stop and Sheed n' Chauncey need to fill those roles with actions and I believe that is what Joe envisioned.I'm not upset they lost 8-1 to start the season in which all summer as many questions there were about this team I'll take it.Just seems eerily familiar with saying what needs to be done like coming out and enforcing will upon teams from the first whistle but not doing it until the last quarter.

There are still some problem areas but it's only 9 games in and I think the streak even though some downplayed it had an effect on getting the bench players in more than they did.The starters were used more to keep it going and even though they are professional athletes that should perform evry night back to backs take alot out of you especially road games.Another BUT.. great teams do that.I think we are but we need to show it.I'm the first person that would like this era of Pistons to be mentioned as one of the great teams.

Now that being undefeated during the regular season is not going to happen start seeing what this bench is made of and ending the season with only 1 loss can't be all that bad can it??

Just got off 94 outta Chy-town and I gotta commend our Piston Fans on the west side of the state for finally gettin the sunday drivers outta the hammer lane. Made good time comin back. THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

Missed the Dallas game, but I've been kinda impressed with Arroyo's play this season. So far anyway. This is a guy whose done his homework last offseason, and it shows. He's in much better shape, and he has found his shot. If used properly, could be a great change of pace guy for us. Plus, our guys have some chemistry with him.

I think our true weakness (same as last season) remains the backup 2/3 spots. Evans and Delfino don't inspire confidence in my book, although I'm willing to be patient. Without an upgrade or much better play, we've got a weak bench....again.

With that in mind... this is what I would suggest:
Give the current bench enough rope to hang them self or use it to make bridge over troubled waters...Say until the trade deadline in February.

If the bench +/- does not improve by then look for changes...
Possible changes include:

Darko at PF (he can actually produce there). We have too much invested in him to keep him on the bench.

Look for a veteran scoring upgrade at the 2/3, or use Jmax at SF

Use Hunter more to stop dribble pen or trade for a defensive capable PG that can set up his teamates.

As long as we can maintain the best record in the East then we can stay with this much of the youth development program.

I think we need someone off the bench that can command a double team... this is something that Corliss would do for us... if he could play SF then so can Jmax... he's a better defender than C.W. was.
By having Jmax dominate in the post there would be a better free flowing ball movement to the open man... and because Jmax can shoot a consistent midrange shot we would have enough perimiter balance to allow Arroyo to use his penetration & dish abilities.

@ 8-1 let's give it some time fellas.

Oh yeah... and tell Sheed to quit getting caught in limbo land on P&R's... you either put a lot of pressure on the gaurd to cause a T.O. or you get your ass back to cover the big.

With that in mind... this is what I would suggest:
Give the current bench enough rope to hang them self or use it to make bridge over troubled waters...Say until the trade deadline in February.

If the bench +/- does not improve by then look for changes...
Possible changes include:

Darko at PF (he can actually produce there). We have too much invested in him to keep him on the bench.

Look for a veteran scoring upgrade at the 2/3, or use Jmax at SF

Use Hunter more to stop dribble pen or trade for a defensive capable PG that can set up his teamates.

As long as we can maintain the best record in the East then we can stay with this much of the youth development program.

I think we need someone off the bench that can command a double team... this is something that Corliss would do for us... if he could play SF then so can Jmax... he's a better defender than C.W. was.
By having Jmax dominate in the post there would be a better free flowing ball movement to the open man... and because Jmax can shoot a consistent midrange shot we would have enough perimiter balance to allow Arroyo to use his penetration & dish abilities.

@ 8-1 let's give it some time fellas.

Oh yeah... and tell Sheed to quit getting caught in limbo land on P&R's... you either put a lot of pressure on the gaurd to cause a T.O. or you get your ass back to cover the big.

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Sounds good to me. Heck, I hope I'm wrong about the bench. I hope everyone steps up, we can reduce the starters' minutes without having much (ideally any) drop off, our young guys earn valuable minutes and experience and we get home court without having to make a single move.

"From our standpoint, on the defensive side, it looked like we were expecting help," he said, referring to the ease with which Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels and Devin Harris were breaking down the defense off the dribble.

"When guys are going at you one-on-one, you have to take that personal. You can't back down. You have to go back at them. We are letting guys just come off pick-and-rolls. We aren't fighting them ....

"This is correctable, you know how we play defense," he said. "But, the last couple of games, our defense hasn't been close to what it was last year."

I am a little concerned. We have seen people drive to the basket at will on our bigs without paying the price. The Dallas game was one where there should be no excuses made. Teams play back to back all the time. Iverson plays 40 minutes a game and can just about score 40 pts in both games. Dallas looked hungry and we looked like we could care less we just wanted the game over with as fast as possible. At some point you would have thought that pride would have set in and guys would have wanted to not get blown back like they did. I just hope this does not start the begining of a lossing streak where we lose 3 or 4 in a row like the Wings are doing.

On the bright side, at least they didn't lose to the Toronto Raptors...like....Miami!
The most troubling thing to me is how well the opposing big men do against us. Mark BLount....c'mon. Eric Dampier...the guy was sucking until last night. I'm all for targeted D but the pistons have been off the mark in the first half. There has to be some lockdown early.

I'm all for Darko getting a good chunk of dyess' minutes. Even with PT, Darko will be inconsistent. Dyess will have opportunities to get those back again.

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yup. ben has always had trouble with large centers it's nothing new. he usually wears them down though. darko seems to do a better job against large centers. yup it's darko time mcdyess got his minutes to work things out now give darko 10 games to see if he can get his offensive game going. it will only help us in the end to have more capable bigs on the bench.

I think our true weakness (same as last season) remains the backup 2/3 spots. Evans and Delfino don't inspire confidence in my book, although I'm willing to be patient. Without an upgrade or much better play, we've got a weak bench....again.

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yup. patience is the key. the guys simply haven't had the minutes to gel. delfino is shooting a high percentage and making good passes. evans is rebounding and shooting the 3 well. delfino and arroyo need to be on the floor at the same time. arroyo needs another playmaker on the court with him. delfino could be our missing scoring option off the bench if flip was to tell him to be that. right now a couple of our best scorers off the bench are the most unselfish guys.

regarding Tay's comments: could it be that the zone practice is getting into their sub conscious? Man defense takes a certain mental focus. You execute what you practice...if you practice zone, maybe that mentality shows up a little in the man set.

??? Arroyo is shooting 38% from the field and 55% from the line this year. Against Dallas, last game, he was 2 for 7 during garbage minutes. If this is finding his shot, we need to cut him today...because he sucks. lol. At his height and speed disadvantage, Arroyo really can't afford to be missing free throw attempts and layups. He has alot of work to do.

bball jay said:

the second unit will not be a defensive stopper second unit so stop trying to make it one. simple as that we don't have that type of players on our bench. use them to thier strengths.

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This sucks then because this means that the focus of the team has changed. Have we mortgaged grit and staunch defense for offensive flashiness? One of the things that made the Pistons so intimidating in the past was that all of our players were committed to our defensive philosophies, even those who may have been previously noted for their defensive talents.

The fact is that our defensive unit thus far has existed just to keep the ship steady. That doesn't cut it in my book. I think the bench should be infused with game changers. Sparks! Anything less than that is disappointing and unacceptable. The bench has the potential, but right now they have alot of work to do.

Wow!! Hey guys where's your faith in our heroes. This is the Pistons not the Lions. The Dallas game was nasty enough, I don't like the crazies from Texas [spirit of the Alamo] taking anything from the Spirit of Chief Pontiac. Our guys are learning a new system testing their off. prowless. All you guys did last year was gripe about off. ineptitude. Well now you see our progression to "Showtime-Pistons" and I think they are ready. That "going to work" stuff was good for beginners but this is a mature team and they better be ready to evolve.
Ah, put me down for some more defense please.
I'll say it again, and you will see soon, Flip use the bench as a unit. Probably against weak teams to start. And it might involve a loss but that is the test they need. Here's that bench:
pg- CarArr.
sg- CarDel.
sf- MoE. and JMax.
pf- Darko
c- Davis
How about, "Corvette Pistons"

This sucks then because this means that the focus of the team has changed. Have we mortgaged grit and staunch defense for offensive flashiness? One of the things that made the Pistons so intimidating in the past was that all of our players were committed to our defensive philosophies, even those who may have been previously noted for their defensive talents.

The fact is that our defensive unit thus far has existed just to keep the ship steady. That doesn't cut it in my book. I think the bench should be infused with game changers. Sparks! Anything less than that is disappointing and unacceptable. The bench has the potential, but right now they have alot of work to do.

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we were so effective in the past because of the different rules. now the rules are slanted toward the offensive players. we now have players that can take advantage of the rules changes. nothing wrong with the second unit bringing a different type of style. just because they are slanted more towards offense doesn't mean they forget defense altogether.

we do have game changers. darko, evans, maxiell and dale davis can change the game defensively. arroyo, darko, maxiell, delfino and evans can change the game offensively. the problem with the pistons is that the starting 5 is so good that the second unit can't for chemistry and get thier own identity.

the second unit needs to feel that they can play hard and play. not just fill in for 3 or 4 minutes.

... just because they are slanted more towards offense doesn't mean they forget defense altogether....

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If you've watched them play the last 5 games they have. The second unit is awful defensively. With the exception of 1 blocked jump hook by Darko every other game, they routinely get killed on the boards unless Tay or Davis (and I hate Davis) is in with them.

These guys don't score enough and when your only option when you're down 30 and can't get a stop is to put in more offensive players. You're going to lose by 37. Plain and simple.

This has been building for the last 5 games and only was avoided because of last second magic. I said when Flip was hired that all he said about defense is that the players know how to play great D. That has nothing to do with Flip being able to coach a successful defensive scheme which he clearly was unable to do once the jump shots stopped falling.

They might be 8-1, but if they don't consistently get back to defending (especially on the perimeter) and challenging layups it's going to turn ugly very quickly when the rest of the teams in the L start getting into their groove.

If you've watched them play the last 5 games they have. The second unit is awful defensively. With the exception of 1 blocked jump hook by Darko every other game, they routinely get killed on the boards unless Tay or Davis (and I hate Davis) is in with them.

These guys don't score enough and when your only option when you're down 30 and can't get a stop is to put in more offensive players. You're going to lose by 37. Plain and simple.

This has been building for the last 5 games and only was avoided because of last second magic. I said when Flip was hired that all he said about defense is that the players know how to play great D. That has nothing to do with Flip being able to coach a successful defensive scheme which he clearly was unable to do once the jump shots stopped falling.

They might be 8-1, but if they don't consistently get back to defending (especially on the perimeter) and challenging layups it's going to turn ugly very quickly when the rest of the teams in the L start getting into their groove.

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if you have watched the last 5 games the second unit hasn't gotten much burn. honestly i would say that darko has looked great on defense so far. but like i said the second unit isn't full of defensive stoppers. they should be played toward thier strengths. last night the bench was put in a hole that even the starters couldn't get out of so i won't hold last night against them. the starters are getting killed on the boards also.

it's pretty hard to stop people if you aren't scoring yourself. dallas is just a high scoring team that had a hot night. yes we need to stop dribble penetration and start handing out hard fouls when they do get past our guards. i think it's to quick to worry about our defense when 1 game we get blown out. don't forget we've been on the other end of the blowouts the rest of the season. it's not going to turn ugly because we can't be bad offensively for the rest of the season. last night was a combination of them hitting thier shots and us missing ours simple as that.

the bench can score but when your main scoring option can't hit the side of the barn it kinda throws a wrench into the plans. when mcdyess starts hitting his shot it will open up things for everybody on the second unit. delfino needs more burn arroyo needs a second ballhandler and distributor in there with him.

I have to agree with Low; I think we got a weak bench. What little I've seen Davis play, he hasn't seemed as physical as I thought he would be. Darko has come a long way, yet has a long way to go. Evans ain't bringin the D like I though he would, tho I like his 3pt shooting. He looks like a playin-outta-position guard to me. Plus I got no faith in Delfino.

Arroyo ain't the weakness. Especially if he is teamed with folk who CAN play up-tempo AND defense. As Merc said, when we get someone off the bench who can COMMAND a double team, we got ourselves a strong bench.

The FSFS club is waitin to see what Flip can get out of that group. None of em play defense! And none of em is capable of comin off the bench and lightin it up except maybe Dice. Can Flip coach defense?

I have to agree with Low; I think we got a weak bench. What little I've seen Davis play, he hasn't seemed as physical as I thought he would be. Darko has come a long way, yet has a long way to go. Evans ain't bringin the D like I though he would, tho I like his 3pt shooting. He looks like a playin-outta-position guard to me. Plus I got no faith in Delfino.

Arroyo ain't the weakness. Especially if he is teamed with folk who CAN play up-tempo AND defense. As Merc said, when we get someone off the bench who can COMMAND a double team, we got ourselves a strong bench.

The FSFS club is waitin to see what Flip can get out of that group. None of em play defense! And none of em is capable of comin off the bench and lightin it up except maybe Dice. Can Flip coach defense?

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i disagree the one thing darko has been doing very well off the bench is bringing the defense. i think the fact that our number 1 option off the bench is in a funk right now. if mcdyess isn't going that throws everything else off.

who on the starting unit commands a double team?? sheed usually gets played straight up. unless he sets his mind to it that he's going to dominate the post. this team doesn't need double teams to be successful. our offense is based on movement not post up then kick out.

delfino is the one guy on the bench who has looked good everytime he's played. to me he's pushing evans for minutes. but i think you just have something against delfino so there is no point talking about him. don't jump on the bench bandwagon after these next few games after dice gets rolling.

Hat, let's see what kind of run The NasCar Pistons and the Scrub Pit Crew go on. I bet they rip off 5 or more. BBallJ says you can't jump on the Pit Crew when they start lighting it up, what you gonna do?