Originally named in memory of Lady Powerscourt, one of the 'Chief Women among the Brethren,' this is simply a place for me to collect stray thoughts about the Bible, women, the Brethren, Bible translation, manuscripts, writing systems, movies, books....

Sunday, January 11, 2009

Rick Warren says no to divorce

There are about a dozen things that are extremely disturbing in this post.

19 comments:

Somebody needs to send him a copy of "divorce and remarriage in the church." The author did a great job of demonstrating the particular divorce arguments going on when Jesus was asked the marriage questions by the Pharisees, etc.

It appears, if the author is quoting Jewish practices/laws correctly, that abuse was most certainly an appropriate reason for divorce. When abuse is occuring, the abusing spouse is breaking their marriage vows. Ie, the abusive spouse is breaking the covenant. This seems like it should be a no-brainer, but fundamentalist thinking in Bible interpretation often robs us of common sense.

That is not a very gracious statement. I apologize (though I do believe it to be true). I am angry at what Warren has said. He shows a very weak comprehension of the dynamics of spousal abuse, yet his words will be recieved as those of God. Horrible.

If I got the only justice I deserve, Jesus would never have needed to come to earth. Grace is also a method.

I've recently read "Violent Partners", you might want to give it a read, "Jay and Milka" (in quotes because I don't know which one wrote.

I can understand what Warren read, but we don't know if he elaborated.

I do believe that saving the marriage should be a top priority - marriage in the way God designed marriage. That does not include abuse. I believe that divorce is a last resort, but it should be taught as a resort in abusive marriages.

If there is no "Biblical" reason for divorce in the case of abuse, there is no "Biblical" example of "separation" in the case of abuse.

If there is no "Biblical" reason for divorce in the case of abuse, there is no "Biblical" example of "separation" in the case of abuse.

Thanks for commenting Ellen, that is what I see also. Regarding this statement,

Imprisonment for the abusive partner is the only justice.

I don't agree with that myself. We do have alternatives. Here is a comment I made elsewhere,

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This is a very serious issue. The period of separation is statistically the most dangerous for women. It is best if the wife leaves without her husband’s knowledge beforehand, and then asks for a criminal harrassment warning. In this case, the husband is given a non-judicial “warning” to have no contact with the wife. If he contacts her he will then be charged. It de-escalates the interaction because no criminal charge has been put in place. It is a preventive from further violence on the part of the husband.

However, the wife must agree to have NO contact with the husband in order for the warning of criminal harrassment warning to remain in place. It is best if there is no-fault divorce also since every attempt to charge a violent man or to place blame escalates the danger, the acrimony, and reduces the resources going the children.

I don’t know when the Chrisian community is going to come to its senses on this. A violent relationship must be brought to an abrupt end.

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I see these methods as providing the opportunity for a peaceful and non-punitive termination to the relationship. Few women actually want their partners incarerated. That is a huge dicentive to reporting violence.

I am saddened by the reported rise in domestic violence. To my thinking some vocal Christians have declared war on women. It breaks my heart.

If male authority is taught then boundaries must be raised. Boundaries must be raised no matter what.

Regarding Rick Warren, I really haven't a clue, I know so little about him. Perhaps he is innocent of these ideas. If so I apologize.

Sue, In many states there are no such things as warnings, my state (Florida) included. In my state, a woman seeking a stay away order must file in civil court for a restraining order which is then enforceable by law enforcement. There is no other way to keep her safer.

Ellen,You can click on the link and go to Saddleback’s site and listen to Warren’s sermon clip. It may be in the context of a sermon, but obviously that is the part that dealt with abuse and what the church’s position on the matter is. I did listen to the clip and the article is correct in that the only options Warren gives are to separate and seek counseling in their lay counseling department. From what I can tell, these are NOT professional counselors and are Not trained in dealing with domestic abuse, which is a specialized topic to deal with. I know many professional counselors who are not trained and give very poor advice, never mind lay counselors. He does not mention seeking police intervention or medical help. He also never says how much bad the abuse must be. He does say you do not have to endure abuse, but he also says that only means separation, never divorce. Also, he never mentions that counseling can be more dangerous for the woman because it may escalate the abuse if she discloses something the abuser does not want disclosed. It is why many of us in this field recommend against couples counseling until all abuse has stopped for a period of time - usually at least six months. Sad… and dangerous.

I do think it is not a coincidence that God mentions divorce and violence in the sWarren is neglegent in his comments.ame context… Mal 2:216, I hate divorce, and a man who covers his wife in violence. Mistake? I think not. Coincidence? No.

Also, he never mentions that counseling can be more dangerous for the woman because it may escalate the abuse if she discloses something the abuser does not want disclosed. It is why many of us in this field recommend against couples counseling until all abuse has stopped for a period of time - usually at least six months. Sad… and dangerous.

This is incredibly sad. In my view it is a war on women. These people have no idea of the dynamics of abuse and coercion. It is terrible.

Yes, it is sad. And I agree about the war on women. What if it were men who suffered abuse at the rates that women do? Would staying still be the mandate? Or is it because men make the rules and they are not the majority of the ones suffering?

I agree to a separation when the abuse is serious but do not seek for divorce. Remain single and celebate.keep praying and hoping for the best. I'm a victim of this wrong teachings on divorce and remarriage, now I know better, a Christian should remain single whether separated or divorced. There is no permission for remarriage if the other spouse is still alive,or else it becomes adultery. Marriage vows/covenant are to remain intact. Marriage is forever and permanent and we must try to keep it so. God help us all.