This is a great link. No matter what you think of its premise it quotes from scripture and it occurs to me that the quotes condoning slavery far out number those which can be construed to prohibit homosexuality.

Make of it what you will.

And the of course there are the Baptists who must back-pedal to reconcile it...

Gold Member

No surprise here...if something flies in the face of any modern sense of decency or social equality, chances are high you'll find it espoused in at least one religious text. The rest is history, now and in the making.

You can't really change the Bible (et al)...and ignoring it isn't really working either. If things are to improve it's us that need to change.

Gold Member

See, what Jesus did was come up in a time when the Old Testament was the law of the land and he figured he could make some improvements- which he did. Now, he was still strongly influenced by the culture in which he lived, of which slavery was a part. While a few of those quotes, particualrly the ones from the New Testament were taken slightly out of context, they were right- Jesus DID slight black people, and condoned slavery.

Paul, who I refuse to acknowledge as a saint, regardless of who else does, DID slight women, so fuck that guy.

No one EVER said in the Bible that their cultural paradigm should stand for all time and never change- that's just stupid. They were just telling it like it was for them- then. One must read with discernment if one is to draw anything of value from an ancient text. If you DON'T pick and choose (which is impossible not to, so what I'm really saying is that if you don't understand that you ARE picking and choosing), you are a moron.

Stronzo, once again you give us good food for thought. The site is amazing and it's now bookmarked. Here's to free thinkers everywhere.

Paul, who I refuse to acknowledge as a saint, regardless of who else does, DID slight women, so fuck that guy.

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If always held that Paul had major issues too mz. Agreed.

Stronzo, once again you give us good food for thought. The site is amazing and it's now bookmarked. Here's to free thinkers everywhere.

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It is a fun site and it brings this "us and them" business directly to a bottom line so all minorities and human rights advocates can see how unbiased the the Bible is this one regard; impartial condemnation of anything which isn't male and controlling.

Gold Member

See, what Jesus did was come up in a time when the Old Testament was the law of the land and he figured he could make some improvements- which he did. Now, he was still strongly influenced by the culture in which he lived, of which slavery was a part. While a few of those quotes, particualrly the ones from the New Testament were taken slightly out of context, they were right- Jesus DID slight black people, and condoned slavery.

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The bible in all of it's versions and interpretations was written by men, and like man, hardly perfect. It wasn't handed down by a flash from heaven above.

What's more, though the scripture quoted is, as you seem to suggest, a reflection of the culture of the time, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Black people (though some, for varioius reasons, like perhaps, justifying the practice, might want to make that connection).

They seem to forget that slavery of that time was more often based on factors other than the race based slavery of the New World: factors such as what family one was born to, one's economic/social status, one's religion, country of origin (from a conquered state for example), etc.

So why one thinks "Black" people every time they read "slave" is beyond me. Many people of many races and cultures were enslaved.

Gold Member

So why one thinks "Black" people every time they read "slave" is beyond me. Many people of many races and cultures were enslaved.

Sounds like a personal issue to me.

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I disagree (with your second sentence).

I think it's simply the most 'obvious' example and its legacy is still having serious repercusions in America (and elsewhere of course ) today. If one is on the receiving end of those repercusions I can understand perfectly why that would be the association which would first spring to mind. At face value I don't think it's indicative of anything deeper than that.

Slavery has affected people of all 'colours' for millenia,so I'd say it's only a 'personal issue' when one refuses to look deeper and not accept the ironic truth that in a global/historical/Biblical sense, slavery is truly colour blind and the strong abused the weak of all races with equal equanimity then and now.

What's far worse is that many fail to see or worse refuse to accept that slavery is still thriving worldwide. I've seen evidence of that thinking here, though not from the poster to which you refer.

The bible in all of it's versions and interpretations was written by men, and like man, hardly perfect. It wasn't handed down by a flash from heaven above.

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Why b.c.! That's precisely what I've been saying all this time in reference to homosexual references by those 'hardly perfect' men. Only when you find it applied to your own racial plight does the "light come on". Interesting.

What's more, though the scripture quoted is, as you seem to suggest, a reflection of the culture of the time, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Black people (though some, for varioius reasons, like perhaps, justifying the practice, might want to make that connection).

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Again, like playainda, b.c. attempts to distance himself from those he considers 'lesser'; homosexuals.

They seem to forget that slavery of that time was more often based on factors other than the race based slavery of the New World: factors such as what family one was born to, one's economic/social status, one's religion, country of origin (from a conquered state for example), etc.

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And now you'd have us categorize the degree to which slavery is applied and temper it according to application?? -seems rather like situation ethics.

So why one thinks "Black" people every time they read "slave" is beyond me.

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How can it be 'beyond you'. It's all-inculsive! No one suggest it exclusively describes black victims. We're not morons. It's application to black people and slavery is cited in the context in which this debate is conceived since I've made the board face the inequity of how (some) black people feel in reference to their plight versus that of my own gay brothers and sisters. How can you miss that? And b.c.? It was used (the Bible) very specifically to justify the enslaving of black people for generations. Do some reading during the years prior to the War Between the States and you'll see how many justified the plight of black Americans with just that same sort of blanked Bible sanction as so many now use to justify homophobic spoutings. ​

Why do you seem to want to skim over that part?

Many people of many races and cultures were enslaved.

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Yes. And the Israelites (you know Moses's line "Let my People Go" which was later used as a persecution spiritual lyric by black Americans?) are a perfect example of your 'many other races'. Jews as recently as the 1940s (along with many forgotten homosexuals) suffered at the hands of fascists and were sent to death camps like Buchenwald and similarly put to death ... so I apply the Bible's references to all oppressed peoples. That's, in essence, why I've gone to this length to expose the injustice of how many would condemn the homosexuals among us while stating "oh there's no comparison" when it comes to the denial of human rights for homosexuals.

But for you to obviously want to distance yourself from the very thing your own people endured and had reinforced by that tome astonishes me.

Again I say: When it comes to logic and sound thinking oridinarilly intelligent people heave it all out the window when that Bible comes into play

Sounds like a personal issue to me.

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Yes. It ought to be decidedly 'personal' to you and to me. You appear to suffer from terminal short-sightedness. I'll lend you the money to go to the eye doctor to be fitted for lenses that don't rose-color the issue. I think the perscription should probably, more precisely, be for distance though.

aside to BronxBombshell:

Hey Bronx?? I think I'll start a thread called "thinly-veiled homophobia on the LPSG board" Think it'll get the attention yours did? I'd rather doubt it. I'd certainly appreciate hearing your views on this since you were ever-ready to pounce when you preceived me as a racist love. Guess since the injustices directed to your homosexual kinsmen in this country right now don't make much difference to you since they don't hit you where you live, yes?

dong20 said:

What's far worse is that many fail to see or worse refuse to accept that slavery is still thriving worldwide. I've seen evidence of that thinking here, though not from the poster to which you refer.

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You're an amazing source of light in a very dark bleak tunnel dong. Thanks, my man.

I don't think it brings anyone "up" to anything to minimize the inequities in this society. While I agree that the "poor me" thing gets old. I don't feel that way (personally) about my own untenable situation.

That's why you'll find me endlessly taking on "the man" in all guises to combat. I'm as indefatigable in the real forum as I am this one in that regard. My money's where my mouth is my friend.

I wish you'd read "playainda's" commentary on the homophobia/church thread to see what these fuckers are up to. It's something that, quite simply, cannot be ignored.

Gold Member

All us bitches, niggers and queers trying to scream the loudest for our share of sympathy are distracting to those hard working white men who are trying to concentrate on their golf swing while devising means of siphening funds from government programs we'd been led to believe were going to make us all "equal".

Meanwhile back at the ranch, one republifuck after another is exposed for the various and sundry frauds they've committed and STILL repubs trying to defend their long lost honour call everyone else conspiracy theorists.

How much evidence does anyone need to acknowledge the obvious? Seriously guys, this is kindergarten level shit, and it has been from the beginning. The fact that this administration is so fucking STUPID but still manages to get it's greasy ass past most of middle America makes me truly loathe my fellow man.

Gold Member

Why b.c.! That's precisely what I've been saying all this time in reference to homosexual references by those 'hardly perfect' men. Only when you find it applied to your own racial plight does the "light come on". Interesting. Again, like playainda, b.c. attempts to distance himself from those he considers 'lesser'; homosexuals. And now you'd have us categorize the degree to which slavery is applied and temper it according to application?? -seems rather like situation ethics.

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"...only when applied to my own racial plight does the light come on"?? Maybe YOU haven't been reading what I've been saying. "Distance myself from 'lesser homosexuals'"? Hardly what I've stated on past occasions, I think.

Stronzo said:

How can it be 'beyond you'. It's all-inculsive! No one suggest it exclusively describes black victims. We're not morons. It's application to black people and slavery is cited in the context in which this debate is conceived since I've made the board face the inequity of how (some) black people feel in reference to their plight versus that of my own gay brothers and sisters. How can you miss that? And b.c.? It was used (the Bible) very specifically to justify the enslaving of black people for generations. Do some reading during the years prior to the War Between the States and you'll see how many justified the plight of black Americans with just that same sort of blanked Bible sanction as so many now use to justify homophobic spoutings.

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Stronzo said:

Why do you seem to want to skim over that part?

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I know precisely how it is you wish to "apply" the bible's reference to black people and why. I've "missed" nothing. Nor do I need to "do some reading" of historic applications of biblical passages to black people. I know how many did (and still do) interpret the passages as references to and justification for black slavery.

What I've said is that the passages when originally written didn't necessarily refer to blacks as slaves, but slavery in general. This is not a disclaimer, nor an attempt to distance oneself from the practice of slavery, or the biblical "takes" on the practice. On the contrary, it is a reminder that many of us may be ancestors of those who were once slaves.

Stronzo said:

But for you to obviously want to distance yourself from the very thing your own people endured and had reinforced by that tome astonishes me. Again I say: When it comes to logic and sound thinking oridinarilly intelligent people heave it all out the window when that Bible comes into play

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Me? A defender of the bible?? What a laugh. I'm not trying to distance myself so much as to wonder why you're determined to direct your series of posts (and apparent animosity) towards black people, as if we're the ones denying, trampling on, and legislating against the rights of gays. What's the deal??

Are you angry because, instead of taking up your "cross" and "taking it to the streets" over gay rights, certain fundamentalists blacks have accepted the mantra of your white brethren, and have bought into conservative Christians doctrine re. homosexuality? How dare they? Don't they know who they are?

Maybe you should rant against the "TEACHER" and not the "student". Direct your anger towards the people and politicians your (white conservative) brethren put into power. Rail against the institution and the keepers of "the faith" instead of a minority of its followers.

"Stupid 'darkies'. Didn't they all know it was a story we told them to keep them in line? Now they've gone and believed it all...as if Jesus was their lord! Don't they know this isn't their religion? We lied! See? Lookie here! It says 'slaves'... and here too...'slaves'...and (where was that passage?)...here! Slaves! That means YOU, boy! Now go out and pick me some cotton."