Tuesday saw day two of cross-examination of Bill Gates in the Microsoft anti-trust remedy hearing. Gates staunchly defended Microsoft in its current form and protocol, and said that the states' proposal would cripple the software giant to the point that Gates would feel it wise to pull Windows from the shelves.

One line of questioning concerned the proposal's limitations on Microsoft's ability to update Windows. The proposal was made that Microsoft would only be allowed to release updates that were made for “good reason.” This proposal combats allegations that Microsoft has, in the past, released updates to the Windows operating system that served no other function but to disrupt third-party applications that competed with Microsoft applications. Gates said firmly that this would leave Microsoft with its hands tied. It would never be able to release any updates, he reasoned, because it would have to spend too much time validating them and clearing them with all of the third-party vendors. Any time MS released a software update a vendor could object, and the burden of proof would be on Microsoft. The proposal simply puts too much power in the hands of the third-party vendors, too much trust in third-party vendors not to make false claims, and does not allow Microsoft the freedom to work, Gates reasoned.

Gates also argued against the states' proposal that older versions of Windows remain on the market at a lower price. He argued that it makes good financial sense for the customer to buy the newest version for the same price. He argued, too, that older versions sitting next to new versions would confuse the customer and further fragment Windows.

Next the topic of the “unbound” version of Windows came up. This is the states' proposed version of Windows that does not include middleware–Windows Media Player, Microsoft Internet Explorer, and MSN Instant Messenger, for example. Gates sternly insisted that this stripped down version of Windows would not be competitive in the marketplace, and therefore would force Microsoft to pull Windows from the market. Gates testified:

Given the way (the provision) is written, I don't see how we could comply. … We'd be in an awful situation where we'd be under court order whereby we couldn't comply except to withdraw Windows from the marketplace.

Gates also promised to appeal if the court sided with the states, and promised to visit every court in the land that would hear him.

The line of questioning led to an interpretation of the states' proposal concerning the fair treatment of manufacturers who did not license Windows from Microsoft. According to Gates's interpretation, Microsoft is required to give too much information to companies with which Microsoft does not even maintain a working relationship. Gates illustrated the point with the handheld market. Compaq Computer Corp. licenses the Pocket PC OS from Microsoft for use on the iPAQ line of Pocket PCs. Sony does not, instead licensing the Palm OS for its Clié line. According to Gates's interpretation of the states' proposed remedy, Microsoft must give Sony access to resources such as future product plans and marketing support.

THOMAS'S OPINION
Wow. The longer this court battle goes on the more I side with Microsoft. You read that correctly–I think Microsoft is getting a bad deal. I just don't see how punishing a successful company for being successful solves anything. At the same time, I think Microsoft is deserving of plenty of punishment. This case is just going about it all wrong.

Should Microsoft be required to strip Windows Media Player and Microsoft Internet Explorer from its operating system? No! That's ridiculous! That's taking a potshot at the guy who's doing well because you're jealous, and it's the most ridiculous part of the states' proposal.

Should Microsoft be held accountable for updates to the OS that could potentially interfere with third-party software? Yes! Microsoft should have to post detail-heavy write-ups of each update it makes, available to anyone who wants to see them. Set up a heavy fine for any time the update does not match the write-ups. This, hopefully, keeps MS honest, and provides the third-party software writers all the ammunition they need to catch Microsoft in the act. I doubt Microsoft would be dumb enough to pull any stunts in a scenario where it has to show everyone the schematics of the stunt.

I simply don't understand how Microsoft can be forced to do things like releasing Office for Linux. The existence and proliferation of Microsoft Office is not an anticompetitive act of Microsoft. It does demonstrate a monopoly, though–you must have Microsoft Office to get any work done. Everyone uses Office, and you will be exchanging files with other people. You must have Office. Is that Microsoft's fault? No. It simply released a bundle of office productivity applications a few years back when that happened to be what everyone needed and didn't even know it.

Microsoft should not be forced to do anything that every other company out there is not being forced to do. That includes porting software to other platforms, selling and supporting outdated software, or breaking its software into pieces. MS is successful. I can't hold that against the company.

You know what I can hold against Microsoft? Its OEM agreements. How about the fact that a PC manufacturer is not allowed to install any other operating system alongside Windows? No one questions that Microsoft is far and away the leader in operating systems, so manufacturers would be crazy not to offer Windows on their computers–but what about other operating systems? In the first trial before Judge Jackson one of the authors of BeOS attempted to describe to the court that his company was out of business because of Microsoft's OEM agreement. The prosecution wanted only to deal with browser integration, and he was told not to talk about the OEM agreement.

What they would have found out was that though he provided BeOS in a form that could be booted from within Windows (meaning the machine would boot to Windows and only boot to BeOS if the user wanted it to boot to BeOS), and provided that free to PC manufacturers, it never amounted to anything because the OEM agreement forced manufacturers to make the process of running BeOS very difficult, stating no visible dual-boot option was allowed. So, no one knew he or she even had BeOS on the computer.

The same goes for Linux. The only option manufacturers have is to release separate lines for Windows and Windows alternative machines, which is an expensive process for manufacturers, making the whole ordeal not worthwhile. Dell tried it for a while, offering Red Hat as an alternative, and found it was too much of a hassle. I have even heard, although I can't find a link now to back this up, that contracts between Microsoft and manufacturers usually account for every desktop that goes out the door. In other words, even if you don't install Windows on a machine, you must pay the license fee for that machine, simply because that's the agreement Microsoft demands. If that's true that is the single most deviously monopolistic thing Microsoft has ever done. And today Bill will be asked about MSN Messenger.

Suggestions…(1:02pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)1. Microsoft must include support for the Real and Quicktime Codecs in Windows Media Player. Remember, these companies never made any money off the players, just the server software. If other codecs were included, the Windows Media format wouldn't have such an advantage.

2. All API's must be released.

Most importantly:

Microsoft must release Office File formats to open source. I don't care about a version of Office for linux, just that Koffice can't read word files. - by MDguy

Lycoris(1:02pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Lycoris has been offering Desktop and Laptop PCs with their distro of linux on them for a few months now. You order the PCs directly from their site, and since the OEM partner is Compaq, you're at least getting a name you've heard of. Right now their on backorder due to high demand, but at least it's a start! Also, StarOffice 6.0 is compatible with MS Office, so you don't NEED MS Office to get work done. Heck, I think MS Office is bloated and Sun streamlined their suite to offer similar functionality without the infestation, I mean, integration with the OS. I use StarOffice on my dual-boot machine and am well pleased with it. Also, the next release of KOffice (from KDE, coming this summer) is a free office suite that will be MS Office compatible. I do agree, however, that MS is being beaten up in areas where they shouldn't be (like WMP). I do like the idea of documented updates to keep MS honest, but what a hard job that would be (to keep MS honest, I mean). Just some thoughts… - by Lt Cox

Microsofts fault if others software doesnt work?(1:12pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Dont get me wrong, Im not a big supporter of MS. They've done a lot for the industry, but over the last couple of years they've taken steps that I think are utterly wrong.

But on this I think I gotta go with MS @.@ Why should the OS manufacturer be required to make -sure- that patches dont interupt software's ability to run? Yea, itd be kinda shoddy if they did it on purpose, but Im sure some software around relies on parts of windows that arent quite secure (hell, most of windows isnt secure IMO). Maybe just make the patches themselves open-source, so that third party software devs can release patches for thier software that works again… - by Elorien

Microsoft's Leveraging power(1:13pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)1- The Problem is not that windows is succesful or not. Microsoft is using their leverage power to monopolize new markets.

2- Microsoft Windows Media Player is trying to take out Realplayer and Quicktime of the market. Not by providing a better player but having it included in their core software.

3- Microsoft Approach is limiting other companies to be succesfull with innovative and creative software.

4- Bottom Line, Microsoft should try to compete with the same rules as everyone else, because if not, it will canibalize and control the market of everything, not just the OS. - by AJGZ

Microsoft(1:17pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Microsoft is doing what they have to do to progress. I don't think they included CD-writer support in XP so that they could take over the Adaptec Easy CD-Creator space.

It just doesn't make sense.

Bill Gates has had a vision of what a home computer should do out of the box. Those are the features that everyone is complaining about.

Some businesses cannot survive because Microsoft offers the same functionality free. That may be a problem, but MANY, MANY more businesses and developers could not survive if there was no Microsoft IE, MFC, VB, and even .NET.

- by optics261

…(1:18pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Gates should pick up and move the whole company to Canada. We aren't the number one country to live in for no reason at all. These statements made by the State are bullshit. Man . . . god forbid anyone makes it in this world without some asshole trying to fuck it up for you. This makes me sick.- by STRICT9

optics261(1:20pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)I totally agree with you. I wouldn't have what I have now if it was not for MS Development tools. They lay the foundation for my company. - by STRICT9

WTF!?(1:28pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)The notiton that removing middleware will help the consumer is ridiculous.

The average consumer is not computer literate enough to go download RealOne or QT. - by #GlaRg!

Successfull company?(1:28pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)“I just don't see how punishing a successful company for being successful solves anything.”

MS is succesfull because they are a monopoly and they can squeeze monopoly-profits. And that is the core of this case.

Of course MS should be punished! And I find it rather weird that MS get's to choose it's punishment (that's what the settlement does).

What the punishment should do is simple. Remove the fruits of it's illegal activities (fines about 15 billion dollars should do it), restore healthy competition to the business (that was destroyed by MS's illegal activities. Open up proprietary protocols, fileformats, filesystems, removal of OEM-stranglehold etc.) and actually punish for their illegal activities (fines for MS execs who were behind the illegal activities, some additional fines for company itself) - by Janne

A thought(1:33pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)People say Windows Media Player has an unfair advantage and because of this Real and Quicktime are getting pushed out? Most people know how to download and install a product. If they make a far superior product, people will use it. If their product is only “eh” then people won't take the time to use their crapware. There are a lot of users that don't care what player they use, they won't want to take the time to download a new player and learn the little details. If they have everything they need with what they got, then for the love of pete leave them alone. The people who are creating all the outcry about this are the people who are smart enough to download their preferred media player.

Just because you want to complicate things for yourself, don't force that on others. - by Pete

Re: WTF!?(1:40pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)I believe the notion of offering a middle-ware free version of Windows is to ensure that OEMs and small-time computer manufacturer/sellers can customize the set of applications to their clients needs with the software of their choice and not be forced by Microsoft's self-preserving abusive behavior to have Microsoft software installed be default. - by Patrick

Media Player(1:55pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)I don't really care that much about IE being stuck in Windows, and Messenger can be uninstalled with some modifications to sysoc.inf, but I don't think Media Player should be locked in so that you can't remove it at all.

I was unable to get rid of the Media Player icons for MP3s after installing and configuring WinAmp for my media.

It's not a huge deal, but it is a little annoying. - by 2 cents

Re: 2 cents(2:02pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Actually that has nothing to do with Media Player. In Windows the icon is associated with a file type in the folder options. by uninstalling any application it does not go back and remove the icon associated with the file type. That doesn't happen until you change it or another program updates it. The file type is seperate from the application. So it really doesn't matter what program changes the icon. - by PCTech

Billy(2:03pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Billy is SOOO CUTE!!!!!

I love watching a$$holes run for cover. - by he he

there are (2:05pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)most apis released than most of you know how to use. Over 6000. Truly can any of you claim they know how to use more than a dozen at most? why do you want the code? so a .doc document created on my windows won't work on the version modifiecd by some other idiot? if they release the code then trhere's nomore company, no more purpose of an MS existence(as far as an OS goes). Go to a shitty restaurant and try to ask them to give you the receipt of their soup, on condition that if you go to the restaurant more than 10 times a week. And you are also the owner of the rival restaurant accross the street. - by Dim

Your an idiot DIM(wit)!(2:11pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)That made about as much sense as shit flavored soda! - by BlowHole

RE: MDguy(2:31pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)“1. Microsoft must include support for the Real and Quicktime Codecs in Windows Media Player. Remember, these companies never made any money off the players, just the server software. If other codecs were included, the Windows Media format wouldn't have such an advantage.”

I fail to see your reasoning on this one. If Real and Quicktime codecs are embedded in Windows Media Player, that would only serve to FURTHER its marketshare. The only difference is that someone withOUT RealPlayer or QuickTime would still be able to view their media.

Just last night I turned down RealPlayer (read: I decided not to download it) because it was a BAD product. If Real wants to survive, they need to stop pestering my computer — installing AOHell apps, trying to force me to use THEIR download manager (which, by the way, crashed my computer because my security settings were too high to let it), and various other such things which just plain make people mad. There are a LOT of Real Media files out there that I can't play because I don't have RealPlayer on my computer anymore, but blame it on Real that I refuse to use their product anymore, not Microsoft.

Windows Media Player having Real or Quicktime codecs would only serve to cause more people to use WMP. Hell, if WMP really WAS the all-inclusive player, even I would upgrade (currently I REFUSE to use anything beyond v6.4, because 7+ is just plain bad).

I don't think stripping the OS of WMP and IE would really do anybody much good, and I fail to see why the states are pushing this matter so much. Forcing Microsoft to modify its PRODUCTS is wrong, but making them modify some of their PRACTICES — such as modifying their OEM agreement — is where they need to focus.- by Jacob

One more thing…(2:31pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)

As a side note: I can see where people are coming from when saying MS should released detailed information about product updates, but is it really necessary? People complain about third-party support being “broken” when MS releases an update, but don't even some Linux applications not work from version to version? Where is the real difference there? I seem to recall MS working closely with Quicktime (does that name ring a bell?) when product support had been broken after an update, and they worked dilligently to fix it. I don't think releasing detailed reports about each update would be very productive, but if MS were required to work with companies whose products no longer functioned properly after an update, a lot more would get done on either side (that way MS would only have to worry about it IF a problem arose). - by Jacob

Did you know…(3:33pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)That Gates has already made bck door agreements with the major hardware manufacturers to ONLY market XP on their machines? Now sure you could go and by an OSless system and put red hat on it or whatever you us, but in the end it's way to expensive because only one out of a hundered of us will actually do that, and with an infinite amount of choices. This whole thing is giving me sympathy for Apple, because at least they came right out and said “We are a closed system. You can't put anything but our stuff on our machines. And you can't put our stuff on any other machines” But Gates is siting there trying to lie and weasel about it. - by Big Dumb Face

Re: spud boy(3:47pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)or he could sell all his stocks in microsoft and everyother place, and watch as the market crumbles..or he can sell all his stocks and hire some terrorists to destroy the NYSE and other stock agencies…or he can sell all his stocks and hire terrorists to destory the courtsor he can save all his stocks fight against the court and make another 2 million after what they propose is unconstitutional - by Surly_Fly

THOMAS'S OPINION(3:48pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)“Everyone uses Office, and you will be exchanging files with other people. You must have Office. Is that Microsoft's fault?”

Yes, it is. If they didn't change file formats with every release, you wouldn't have the present situation where nobody can read a MS document without Word. They used their OS monopoly, with its inside knowlege of APIs and so forth (undocumented calls) to put the other guys out of business.

“Microsoft should not be forced to do anything that every other company out there is not being forced to do.”

That's like saying Al Capone shouldn't have been forced to do anything that every other businessman out there is not being forced to do. Microsoft was found guilty of using their monopoly in illegal ways and the court now has to punish them (yeah right) and prevent future anticompetitive actions.

From the Register:“I hope that if I should ever turn to a life of crime and am eventually prosecuted for my wrongdoing and found guilty, I'll be allowed to dictate my punishment to the federal government, just like Microsoft. I hope as well that I'll be permitted to reject state-imposed punishments based on some irrelevant set of purely speculative consequences.”(Thomeas C. Greene) - by steve

ps-(3:49pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Nobody holds their success against them. Like Capone, its HOW they succeeded that pisses people off. - by steve

I want application specific .dll and related files installed to the application directory, and not the OS system directory.

I want each “Windows enhancment” beyond program-launching functions to be a selectible option, and yes, to even be fully removable from the system.

I want all the enhancments to have a standard complete settings option which may be found from a standard pulldown .

Creeping bloat has overrun and destroyed every Windows systemI've put up in a matter of months, and that is from Win-286.It's no better today.

Nothing could improve Microsoft more than some regular, Honest competition.

Low prices, and High quality win over the “pig-slop” we are offered today.

- by JHH

pps(3:54pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)I still think a breakup would be in EVERYBODY'S best interest, including Microsoft. Face it, despite some of the more vocal Microsoft haters' wishes, Microsoft is going to survive anything the judge COULD throw at them, let alone what she WILL do.

If Microsoft were divided in two, that wouldn 't halp rival OS makers much but it sure would help MS customers, MS stockholders, and all other vendors who produce applications.

Too bad Jackson had to be a bigmouthed dumbasss, this circus would be over. - by setev

optics261(4:01pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)“MANY, MANY more businesses and developers could not survive if there was no Microsoft”

Sorry I'm a total moron but I can't for the life of me figure out why that would be so. Are you implying that only Microsoft is capable of making an operating system? You've never heard of CP/M, DR-DOS, QEMM, Linux, Be, or Apple?

Please name one company that Microsoft makes possible. Sorry if I think you're full of excrement. - by steve

PCTech(4:06pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)That's so, and if 2 cents had checked the box that said to associate MP3s with winamp those icons would be winamp's. - by steve

spud boy(4:10pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)If you were Bill Gates there wouldn't BE a microsoft. We'd all be running DRDOS-CP/M-GUI.XP - by steve

Thomas STFU(4:17pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Thomas you are a Moron who should STFU.This proves the point, Judge Jackson was correct, MicroSoft should have been broken into (2) separate companies. Then the majority of Gates' problems would have gone away. This is the only deal MicroSoft should get, this company has committed criminal acts and should be punished just as any common criminal. So what if Gates pulls Windows off the market, by the end of the week there would be half a dozen NEW companies offering a BETTER product. It may be a blessing to be rid of their buggy, junky, insecure over priced software. I for one do hope the Judge is NOT intimidated by Bill Gates and MicroSoft's THREATS.I would not expect an Immature person such as Thomas to really understand the facts about monopoly and anti-trust laws, therefore he should keep his stupid, uneducated, childish opinions to himself.NOTICE TO THOMAS: WAKE UP! - by WhackedOut

*Special Compiler*(4:20pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)…A friend of mine is a higher-up engineer at Microsoft. He tells me that they already have a plan installed in the case the the ruling makes them have-to release Windows Source Code. My friend told me that they will eventually release the code, however the catch is they will not release the *special compiler* that can build any edits to the source. How funny is that!! So technically they will be adhering to the court order, but people still wont be able to do anything with the code. By that time, MS will have moved on to Longhorn and stuff that is built on an entirely different core. - by highfriendsinlow…

Bill Gates..(5:05pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Good competition, but play fairly. You gotta keep up with the good sportmanship. Just ease up on those OEM contracts. If you're doing good enough, you shouldn't have to worry about Linux or BeOS catching up. As long as your products are good enough, you'll be the king. - by DJ

AOL…(5:11pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Microsoft could have easily wiped out AOL, but at least Bill Gates sticked to the anti-monopoly laws, and played along wisely.We just gotta prevent those anti-competitive OEM contracts, that's all. - by DJ

steve(5:57pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)What I said, oh exreted one, was that many companies could not survive without the foundation that Microsoft has set. If you are a developer you already know what I am talking about, if you are not then just shut up.

I made that comment not because Microsoft is the only one that can make operating systems (that is definately not the case). But they are the only ones that are out to make a complete environment for developers to make RAD and non-RAD applications. They have a huge assortment of products from Biztalk to Commerce Server to Visual Studio that, as a suite, no other single company offers.

Much of the B2B world runs on Microsoft languages and platforms such as VB, VC, COM, DCOM, and now .NET. Without it we would be still confused over which DHTML DOM we should follow (NS4, mozzilla etC).- by optics261

MS Windows was based on the premise that you can have basic functionality with an OS, not have to buy thousands of dollars worth of other stuff to go with it. True, I installed and downloaded stuff on my brand new PC (and every time I fdisk and reinstall), but just imagine if you had to buy a media player to play your MPEGS and MP3s that you own. Or worse, license it month by month.

I think Windows would be competitive without all that, and still sell. BUT it would be a bigger pain. Is Philips going to go after Gates for bundling a CD Player in the OS as well?

Now, if support was open for other formats and other companies, that would work well.

If you were brand new to computers, and have never heard of media players, only a little about email, web browsing, etc, how would Netscape, WinAmp, Eudora, Opera, QuickTime, RealNetworks, etc survive? You get these capabilities in Windows for free, if you want something different, GO OUT AND BUY IT!

If MS doesn't include the functionality you want, you're free to go elsewhere. Including these bells & whistles introduces them to the user in the first place.

How many game companies do you think have made their millions on a Windows-complaint standard? Any figures anyone? How about the little guy, who has a windows app that people like and pay him for? How about the companies somewhere in the middle, who know that their windows app will be downloaded and purchased by people who have a need for it?

These companies are dependent on M$. Not only that, if MS includes too much functionality, why is there a need for more? - by ConcernedGeek

RE: BlowHole(7:07pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)I am not surprised you drink shit flavored soda. You know you are a bigoted a$$hole, so whatever you say doesn't matter more to me than Afghanistan going up in flames today. Change your name to $hitHole. It suits your mouth better. - by Dim

JHH(7:09pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Here! Here!

I'll second that!

Those are my exact thoughts. Unfortunatly those idea's and practices will not maintain Microsofts monopoly position or cash cow, so none of it will ever happen. - by Me

Question(7:48pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Of the small percentage or so of people that actually use non-Windows, what percentage of them actually make up the Microsoft bashers? With all the bashers, and that very small percentage, how many of those people are just being ignorant pretend-to-know-it-alls that don't know how courts, laws, businesses, and developers work?

Note to non-ignorants: It's really hard to ignore people like such, but really, it's better if you do.Note to all: Calling someone else a “bigoted asshole” (example only) does not make you look like less of one.

Little known fact: The CD burner engine on Windows XP was actually given to Microsoft by Roxio. They were in hopes that it would spark (more) interest in such devices and increase sales in Easy CD Creator (and upgrades. Upgrades make up 40% of their income.). - by True Logic

Thomas is Naive… part I(8:46pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Part I

You just don't understand? Have you been deaf all these years? Don't you read? I am disappointed in you, Thomas.

What if I *want* to remove IE, Media Player, Messenger, MS personal firewall, et al… I am not currently allowed this choice. (I once was– IE used to have an uninstaller).

Even if I don't choose to run any of these programs, their DLL's are loaded into memory, and they take up system resources and slow down my system! (this is why you almost need a Ghz processor these days for Windows XP). You can't get away from it!

Bill Gates has an ever-expanding definition of what an operating system is! It includes the kitchen sink!

I *want* them to separate these components out– I want my OS to be just an OS, and I want applications to be applications (with uninstallers). I don't want my OS to be dependent upon some snippet of code in IE or Windows Messenger, just to work!

The current situation is that if one of these bolted-on products fail, it has the potential (and usually does) bring down the entire OS. Making the system “moduler” (e.g. separate application from OS functions), is to have isolation, so that if one thing fails, it won't bring down the whole house of cards (the same reason ships have water-tight compartments).

There is not good technical reason to bolt these apps together into the OS– you can derive the same benefit from merely including them as installed *separate* applications on the machine. You don't lose the integrated principle. It is still there. But it also allows consumers to remove or replace if they so choose. These were once separate products, remember…

If you argue that they can't, then how did MS get by before when they were separate applications and OS???

See part II- by Me, myself, and I

Thomas is naive…part II(8:46pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)Part II

These were stand-alone products once, and now they are part of Bill's “vision” thing, and supposedly can't be removed without reparable harm to the OS.

That is alot of crap from Microsoft.

Go see for an example of *one man* who did they unthinkable: he created a utility to separate IE from the rest of of Windows, even allowing an uninstall mode for IE! If *one man* can do this, then Microsoft, with all it's talent and money should be able to do this. Bill Gates is a liar!

If you have a monopoly OS and you bolt every application to it, and call it the operating system, you are only fooling the consumer. As a software developer, I *know* they can “rollback” the code, or refactor the code. Bill's argument that this is impossible is just unconvincing to a software developer! Microsoft even makes a software tool for this purpose, called “SourceSafe”– do they not even use their own tools?!

IF you feel MS is so picked upon, then you have not been doing your homework and studying the details of the case at hand. Microsoft is not being picked upon the the mean 'ol Govt. (Waah!).

Stop your belly-aching and get informed!

Doh! - by Me, myself, and I

My Thoughts on Bill Gates(9:19pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)What a BIG!!! cry baby. Just lost any respect I ever had for him. I may not have like the way he did business but I thought he at least had some diginty.

Man what a candy ass.

With all that money he should buy a backbone.

- by Rax

And what did Atlas do when asked about the load he carried…?(9:48pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)He Shrugged` - by distempered

re: Thomas is naive(10:21pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)you said:Bill Gates has an ever-expanding definition of what an operating system is! It includes the kitchen sink!-Biased sentence. Therefore you seem to be another one of those.

you said:These were stand-alone products once, and now they are part of Bill's “vision” thing, and supposedly can't be removed without reparable harm to the OS-another biased sentence, which fortifies my first assumption about you. It's not a Bill's vision thing. It's a consumer requirement thing. I hope you don't think that before MS start a new ver. of windows they just go to bill's office and ask him for his detailed plan and just build it. You certainly make it seem so.

you said:Go see for an example of *one man* who did they unthinkable: he created a utility to separate IE from the rest of of Windows-problem solved then. Why don't you use it and stop bitchin. Oh, you are afraid to agree with the 'we are not responsible for fucking your computer up' sentence. Oh well, you brought it up. Moving an .exe and some registry keys doesn't clean out the '.dll's' that “eat” so much memory.

you said:Microsoft even makes a software tool for this purpose, called “SourceSafe”-Have you worked with sourceSafe? what is it used for? please tell me without searching google…..- by continued….

from previous…(10:21pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)

-you see, about making certain changes to a OS with 30 million lines of code where the core of it is MS's COM you might be right, tweaks might be made, but since these COM objects are integrated so tightly, we do not know how easy or difficult it is for them to do it. See, the Component Object Model works in a weird way there buddy. If you compare that to the human body, it would mean that if you remove a Component from windows it would be the same as say: remove the right thigh of a human being and still somehow expect him to use his right foot to walk straight. Is it possible? Now 100,000 lines of code would be easier to get around it, but 30 million? MS would have to work for years to just in the end have a downgraded version of windows, while the rivals get to enjoy their monopolistic practises. Well, if you expect that to happen, you've got another thing comming.

- by F7

oh and by the way(10:23pm EST Wed Apr 24 2002)BlowHole is one dumb human being. I wonder how they let him post on this board? - by F7

FYI, I do not get involved in personal E-mail with people from web sites. If there is something to be said TO me, or ABOUT me, please feel FREE to post for me. If you are angered from my previous post about your opinion, well Get Over It. I am not the only one who thinks your personal opinion was heavily biased in favor of MicroSoft, (see Thomas is Naive… part I & 2 by a poster above).If your feelings are so sensitive, that you plan on calling out everyone who disagrees with your submissions and opinions then you are in the wrong Job. Check the Constitution Freedom of Speech goes BOTH ways, you are free, but so am I.Are you trying to tell us that geek.com is not a FREE SPEECH web site ??? Are you trying to Monitor what we say, or is MicroSoft Twisting Your Arm ???Just an Opinion. - by WhackedOut

re: WhackedOut(2:47am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Freedom of speech goes both ways, however you seem to just lash out on everyone who favors MS. You are free to give your opinion, but you should not attack people because of their ideas, likes and dislikes. You are getting back what you are giving out. you see, talking about why Linux is better than Windows and supporting your opinions with links or material or personal experience is one thing, but saying that Linx is the best and Windows sucks, and I hope MS dies, then you are asking for it. So do the people who say the same about windows, which is rarely the case. The problem is that you cannot make a decent comment or post. That's why you come accross as being a troll, and a big time a$$hole. There are a couple more in here, but you top them all. All you do is offend those who give a decent opinion on something. - by Dim

what about Apple(3:07am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Let's see, Microsoft includes Windows Media Player and Apple includes iTunes. Microsoft includes Windows Movie Maker, Apple includes iMovie. In addition, Apple includes iTools. Why is it a crime for Microsoft to bundle their own programs but not Apple? Yes Microsoft does have the overwhelming market share, but why should they be forced not to make the basic OS as full of features as possible.

I personally don't use Media Player with Windows XP. I use Winamp for my MP3s. Does it bother me that Media Player is stuck there? No. Hard Drive space is not a concern and I don't have it running in the background.

I also don't use the CD burning that comes with XP I prefer Nero. But it is nice having the option of burning a CD with a clean install of XP.

It's also the same with your browser. If someone hates using IE, then download Netscape or pay for Opera.

A person is not force to use any of these products that accompany Windows XP. It's about convenience, not monopoly. - by Dreek

True Dreek(3:22am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)I think that the monopoly game was started at a time when Netscape was almos out of business, and Windows95 became so popular everyone was got scared to death. Then WinNT came along and it's easy to use features and GIU consistency made it even more popular. Then SQL came along, and was a robust RDBMS andeasier to use and feature rich. All these products had one thing in common: Cheap. Dirt cheap. Therefore the Unix monopoly, with their million dollar hard to use, bulky and command line machines felt threatened, by this simple yet powerful and popular system. So did databases monopolies, like Oracle, IBM and SUN. Their million dollar databases were challenged by a product of equal power, easier to use and 10 times cheaper. What happens next? Go running to the government for help. So the clinton administration(one of the worst in the american history) while dealing with 3 to 4 blow job cases between their president and women other than his wife gave them the blessing to go ahead. They charged ahead, trying to stop, or possibly force MS into bancruptcy. it didn't happen. MS instead became better, created better products and still kept the barking dogs out of it's property. What i think is not fair, is the full participation of AOL, SUN and Oracle in the trial against MS. They have no right to participate. Sun cries :MS didn't include JVM with their Windows… - by continued

..from previous(3:28am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)well, wake up McNealy, you idiot, first you sue MS then you want them to include youre product with their OS? I don't think so. And it's all a matter of going to the SUN site and takes two seconds to download JVM for your windows. What a ridiculous claim. Let me not even start with LEllison. He's an ass. it's that simple. Only now does he realize that wearing expensive suit, talking down on MS, and inttroducing cards for airports backed By his “Unbreakable” software where bill gates comes up as criminal, DOESN'T SELL HIS SHITTY EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE. Someone finally woke him up from his ultimate dream almsot too late. Now he's nowhere to be seen. I wonder what the problem is? AOL? now the best for last: F*****G AOL? they are the biggest monopoly, and with their virus like software they own your computer if you install it. I still see AOL files after cleaning my comp up for two years almost. They are still there. Like a deadly virus. - by continued……

DIM(wit)(3:31am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)DIM(wit), you do not know the meaning of the word Decent. You are a low IQ loser who at times has trouble forming a sentence, never has an opinion of yours been worthy of a comment. Read your drivel, you should be offended by your own ignorance. - by WhackedOut

…from previous..(3:36am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)MS included IE for free with their OS. That caused the demise of Netscape(thank god. what an ugly browser). Of course MS will do that. MS will want in just like anyone lese. The problem is not that. The problem these companies have is that MS would not bundle their software with Windows. They all wanted to monopolize on windows, since it was so popular. AOL wanted in, Netscape wanted in etc etc. But why would MS include their product when it has it's own product to include? It just doesn't make sense. As for third party products not working well, piss off. It's all lies of some professor of economics, who is an a$$hole. None can claim that they've discovered such a thing. I actually think that MS products would not be able to do what they do unless they included 3'd party software. Why would they include Corel when they have their much better version of Office? It just doesn't make sense people. - by continued…..

from previous..(3:47am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)(sorry whacked out cut me off. He's a big time asshole by the way)

….As someone here said, in thie era of powerful chips, plentu of ram and disk space, what apps you have included makes no difference. I have three different Media players I run on my machine: WinAmp, Quicktime, Windows media. I can use whichever I want at my leisure. I also use Nero, though sometimes the capability of windows to burn CD's just makes things better. My computer is highly customizable, I can run endless apps, and use great programming environments. All the added functionality in WinXP has made my life as a consumer a lot easier, but I still have choices, plenty of them, actually more choices than with any other OS, therefore I have a Linux system as a second OS. Consumers are not complaining about the added functionality. I mean if your tv starts commin with a satellite antena would you complain? Didn't think so. It's the competition that complains, and the governement is helping the competition gain over MS. It's not helping consumers, not a bit. I hope MS doesn't lose for the sake of it's millions of users, and because no matter what is said they still gave us what none has been able to do so far. - by Dim

re: WhackedOut(3:53am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)I would appreciate it if you didn't speak to me anymore. I cannot deal with garbage like you. I see too many every day around me, the least I need is one more on this board. Dude, you are getting a taste of your own puke. Don't like it do ya? Then learn how to behave. I have nothing against you, if you just STFU and mind your own business. Otherwise you are asking for it. My comments are not biased unlike yours. Peole like you need garbage to feed off of it, and keep spitting it out. I do not provide food for you that's why. As fr the IQ, heh your nick speaks for you. Mine is at 150. you can find IQ tests. You are a genuine a$$hole man.Dim stands for the declaration od variables in Basic or FVisual basic. I was writing a program the night I put my first post in here. I post under other names as well. But of course you didn't know that, because all you know is trolling. - by Dim

too late(3:55am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)They should have already been broken apart in the original round. Now its dragged out too long and has become too muddled. They are forgetting the real points and are bickering over stupid points. It is no longer a question of right-and-wrong (legality) it is now a question of appeasement.

They have become blinded. - by tom

OEM laws(9:19am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)no one can say that microsoft isnt trying to monopolise the softwar industry…. he has dell, compaq, HP in a stranglehold besacause they are not allowed to release pc's with any other os. If Windows is so superior then lets see RedHat and XP head to head on the same machines… then we'll see - by thomas

optics261(9:48am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Firstly, thank you for expanding my vocabulary. However, I couldn't find “exreted” at either dictionary.com or in the hardcopy version, could you please define? Thx

As to the tools, Sure they make good tools and a good programming environment, but the same point holds- why do you think that only microsoft is capable of this?

It's my position that nobody else has such a suite exactly because competetion has been squashed, whather by legal or illegal means was/is up to the court to decide.

But I formly believe that nature abhors a vacuum and necessity is teh mother of invention, to drag out two tired but accurate cliches. If there were no microsoft, someone else would have done it. Perhaps a lot of someone elses would have, and if thet were the case the tools and environment would almost certainly be much better than it is, simply because competetion in the tech arena leads to innovation.

You're looking at wht you have and might not have had. I'm looking at what we don't have but could have had. - by steve

Well, I think Al Capone got a raw deal. All the guy wanted to do was supply a thirsty nation with a cold BEER, good old fashioned American BEER and that dratted Justice Department went and spoiled it for all of us. I like beer and I hate taxes, and here old Al died in prison over TAXES!!!

(yes I'm a smartass, but it should make its point)

“just imagine if you had to buy a media player to play your MPEGS and MP3s”

Why would you? There are free ones for download, BETTER ones, and those were free for download before windows ever thought of including them.

“If you were brand new to computers, and have never heard of media players…”

and one came with windows, how would you know that it was the worst sounding piece of CRAP on the market? You wouldn't, and would post on geek forums about how much you like the virus bait called WiMP.

“How many game companies do you think have made their millions on a Windows-complaint standard?”

NONE, they were making plenty of money on DOS games. Never heard of DOOM or Duke Nukem? There has NEVER been a Duke Nukem for Windows. 1, 2, and 3D were all DOS games.

These companies are NOT dependant on microsoft. They are dependant on the fact that people all have computers. Warren Marshall's people are perfectly capable of writing for Apples, Linux, and consoles as well as Windows, because THEY HAVE DONE IT. The same gows for Broussard's, Carmaks, or Romero's people.

Programmers program. Real programmers don't care about the language or platform. I don't know how many languages I've been forced to learn, then later been glad I was forced to. - by steve

True Logic(10:05am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Roxio also gives their software away with CD burners. Personally, I think that SHOULD be part of the OS.

Not WiMP or MSMessenger though. - by steve

Dim(10:19am EST Thu Apr 25 2002)“I post under other names as well.”

Is one, by chance, “whacked out?” Because the two of you sound an awful lot alike.

Both of you guys need to cut down on the Monosodium Glutimate! - by steve

Is your record broken because I am tired of hearing it skip! - by SameSh*tDifferentPil

steve(1:58pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)I am happy I am not the only one who thinks BlowHole is just that, a BlowHole + Completely Nuts. - by Dim

Yes(2:14pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)There would be no M$ if it wasn't for me because there is no one as unethical as I am. Don't worry about M$ taking over other markets(other than the overseas aids drug market), the courts would never allow us to steal other products. - by tech

Trials in Session(3:06pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)It appears to me while after following the (2) trials in session at this time, (MS vs DOJ, & HP vs HP), that Bill Gates and Carly Fiorina are both expert LIARS. - by WhackedOut

WhackedOut(3:31pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)I can't believe you mentioned free speech, message-filtering, or MicroSoft twisting my arm.Yes, Geek.com believes in free speech. No we don't filter messages. No Microsoft doesn't even know who I am.I just thought e-mailing would be a much more efficient form of communication than this.My feelings were not hurt by your comments I was just intrigued by your level of anger. I was shocked how much you assumed about(almost all of it is way off), and how much you lashed out at my character for the simple reason that we disagree.I have read some more of your comments, and I now know that there is no point in talking to you. You don't use reason, and you don't give opponents a platform from which to speak. You are myopic, simple, and feel forced to overcome your low self-esteem by demonstrating your superiority over people in a bulletin board. May God have mercy on your soul. - by Thomas

Earth Scum(4:30pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Thomas, my anger is not directed toward you. But after standing on the sideline and watching MicroSoft destroy the growth in the young Computer Tech. Industry for the past few years, while people sing phrases of their greatness I have had enough. MicroSoft (Bill Gates) is a common criminal who because of billions of dollars has avoided punishment. Judge Jackson found them GUILTY and look what happened to him, (literally cut down), MicroSoft destroys any thing that stands in their path. MicroSoft is acting like Standard Oil in the year of 1899. Gates thinks he is Rockefeller. This is the reason monopoly laws are on the books today. But Gates has NO respect for the LAW. Bill Gates DISRESPECTS you common people of the U.S. by NOT obeying the LAW.I stand up against them, I say they are Scum. You people ALL hate me because I alone choose to stand up and speak against their criminal activity. - by WhackedOut

Thomas(4:38pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Very true. WhackedOut has never had a valid opinion at least for the past couple of months I've been following the boards. If you just read his last post only, you will be very easily able to determine his mental condition. It's at a breaking point. He could also be dangerous enought to give MS a call about this mad man. He preaches hate towards this company. Hate speech is is a crime by law, but just because this is about technology, lawmakers overlook it. - by Dim

question(5:04pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)>Bill Gates DISRESPECTS you common people of the U.S. by NOT obeying the LAW-where are you from? And if you are not a “common people” of the US, how would you know the US laws so well? Which specific laws are you talking about, BG doesn't obey? I've never heard of that. I think you are trying to say that MS doesn't obey laws, but you are just too hung up on BG.

>I stand up against them, I say they are Scum. -good for you. You do that.

>You people ALL hate me because I alone choose to stand up and speak against their criminal activity-dude, none hates you man. chill out. We just feel pitty for you because you are so imature, and suffering from something either mentally or emotionallyI am serious, you need to cunsult with a psuchiatrist. I'd say you can't sleep quietly at night thinking about MS and BG with hate. That can consume your life, and make you do and say things you can regret later. There are millions of Software companies all over the world, and MS is just one of them. You have an infinite array of choices, and can do great without ever having to use an MS product. But for god's sake leave the rest of us in peace and give our own opinions. Just go away. - by Geek.com

Dim(wit)(5:11pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)Dim(wit), Stupid foreigner (Canadian) go mind your own business. There is no Hate Speech. But as usual this is over your head, I would not expect you to understand American History. - by WhackedOut

your usual(5:22pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)response to everything and every one that doesn't agree with you. Unfortunately it is everyone that doesn't agree with you. I am sure you think there's nothing wrong with your speech. Have you ever seen 'Silence of the lambs'? the guy that skinned the young girls didn't think there was something wrong with what he was doing either. I have dual citizenship, and family mambers fighting a war against terrorism in Afghanistan. I think I am a lot more american that you are. - by Dim

WhackedOut(5:29pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)I can't believe you mentioned free speech, message-filtering, or MicroSoft twisting my arm.Yes, Geek.com believes in free speech. No we don't filter messages. No Microsoft doesn't even know who I am.I just thought e-mailing would be a much more efficient form of communication than this.My feelings were not hurt by your comments I was just intrigued by your level of anger. I was shocked how much you assumed about(almost all of it is way off), and how much you lashed out at my character for the simple reason that we disagree.I have read some more of your comments, and I now know that there is no point in talking to you. You don't use reason, and you don't give opponents a platform from which to speak. You are myopic, simple, and feel forced to overcome your low self-esteem by demonstrating your superiority over people in a bulletin board. May God have mercy on your soul. - by Thomas

BOTTOM LINE(5:41pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)So what will I really gain from all this political posturing? I'll bet a big fat ZERO…… Imagagine what we could have done with the pile of $$$ spent on this whole mess…….The day George W. took office you could tell this matter would go pretty mch nowhere. They are just numbing up the public with all the wrangling, so they can give Bill a slap on his wrist and send him on his way….. - by numb already

WhackedOut(7:19pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)SCUM - by byDim for byThomas

Whacked(8:14pm EST Thu Apr 25 2002)” You people ALL hate me because I alone choose to stand up and speak against their criminal activity.” – by WhackedOut

Actually we hate you for a long list of other reasons. - by nowgoawaybitch

American?(1:19pm EST Fri Apr 26 2002)WhackedOut, who in your opinion is an American? Someone who was born here? An imigrant who bacame a citizen? I'm sure if you go back far enough in your family history you will find imigrants. In essence, all of us are “foreigners”.

Most of us are mutts and racial and ethnic diversity and tolerance is what makes America great. - by citizen

I did check the 'box' and I also went into File Associations and changed the icons and association.

Guess what? It never did change icons. Maybe I missed something..or not. - by No newbie!

steve(12:00pm EST Sat Apr 27 2002)Sorry about the misspelling, why don't you work with geek.com and add a spellcheck. While you are at it, do it with unix development tools.

You are taking a very 'consumer-ish' approach to my comments. The problem is not that Microsoft has stifled competition in the development arena. While it may be the case with the “OS” arena.

I just have yet to see any development environment such as what Microsoft makes available for any other platform.

A development environment is not a product that has 'competition' per say, but a framework. Developers develop for frameworks that are attractive, and easy to use.- by optics261

Whacked out(4:48pm EST Mon Apr 29 2002)Is an peon that cannot accept the fact that he may be wrong, or that other people do not agree with what he says. He is most certainly not an American if he feels that everyone should agree with him or his ideas. He falls more under the lines of a Stalin or Hitler. Stop bashing other people cause they make more sence than you and do us all a small favor and shut your trap you ignorant fool. If that is against free speech in your eyes so be it. - by TrueAmericanGeek

Help the poor/sick people(8:46am EST Thu Mar 24 2005)Help the poor/sick people - by Dencity T.O.C.Odelug