On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Theresa Conefrey wrote:> And another question about definitions: In a long-term relationship,> such as between a couple who had been married for many years,> is it considered rape where the husband wants intercourse but the wife> does not, although she finally gives in and goes along with it? Here> I'm thinking of the old "lie back and think of England" attitude. In such> situations, I'm assuming that most women would not label this experience> rape.Interesting question...It seems to me that, in long-term relationships,both women and men often do lots of things, including engaging in"unwanted" sexual intercourse occasionally, but "think of England" toplease their partners. In Edward O. Laumann et al., _The SocialOrganization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States_ (U ofChicago Press, 1994), the researchers define rape--including maritalrape--as coerced/forced. Using this definition, they found that 9 percentof the female respondents reported having been (ever) forced to have sexwith a spouse. Very high percentage, of course, but different from "I'mnot in the mood right now," methinks, and shouldn't be labeled as rape.niki ---------------------------------------------------------Nijole (Niki) Benokraitis, Professor of SociologyUniversity of Baltimore, 1420 N. Charles St., Baltimore, MD 21201Fax: 410-837-6051; Voicemail: 410-837-5294; nbenokraitis @ ubmail.ubalt.edu----------------------------------------------------------

What I find problematic is the term 'rape culture' itself,as I think it can be misconstrued. I believe the term ismeant to describe the 'culture' of rape, as with 'eskimoculture', for instance, analyzing the lives, social context,beliefs, etc that enable this 'culture' to exist. But there isanother meaning that is conveyed by this term, and thatis that we live in a 'rape culture', just as we live in aconsumer society or an information society. And if theterm is meant to convey that, or even if it's not, I don'tbelieve it is a good one to use. Unlike the 'information'or 'consumer' culture that we live in, not everyone hasexperienced rape, or anything that might pass for rape,nor are their lives regulated by it. And unlike eskimoculture, rape is widespread and not confined to a limitedarea. So it the term 'culture' that I question. There's a lotof truth in the web pages on 'rape culture' which cannot bedismissed, but calling it 'rape culture' suggests that rapewill happen to everyone. If it were called 'rape theory'it might be more appropriate, as it would limit it to rape.Liz Stanley refers to the 'drive reduction approach' , Idon't know the original source of that term or what exactlyis meant by it, but it seems to me it expresses moreaccurately what is going on in our sexualized society, andprobably expresses better the aim of most men, which is tosatisfy, or reduce, their sex drive. And if it is accepted thatmen do have this insatiable drive, (whether biological,hormonal or psychosocial or a combination), then womenalso are a part of this dynamic, and their experiences arediverse. Some experience rape, some have good sex,some use their sexual power to get what they want frommen, and so on. It is a term that does not suggest that allwomen are negatively affected within a sexualizedenvironment, neither does it suggest that all men arepotential rapists.Sue McPhersonemail: sue @ mcphersons.freeserve.co.uk

I do like Sue's considered and thoughtful response.I would consider, however, that we live in a world of many subcultures,not all of which have equal hold on us (certainly not equal hold in allplaces and at all times). And one of those subcultures incorporatesthose themes of hegemonic masculinity, power, and violence whichvalidate rape. It's not that we all experience that (sub)cultureequally; but that there are parts of society/culture where those valuesand behaviors are validated and reinforced. Those would include (butnot be limited to) certain drinking extablishments (some campus bars,the situation depicted in "The Accused"); certain social fraternity rushweeks and parties (well documented in the literature); neighborhoods,ethnicities, even nationalities which support traditional patriarchialviews that the woman is the "property" of her husband. Etc.There are also numerous articles which show that rape myths (she reallyenjoyed it, she dressed in such a manner that she's asking for it, etc.)validate and reinforce the rape subculture.At the times and places where that (sub) culture is reinforced, rapebehaviors are validated, giving permission to engage in rape.An analogy: yes, we live in a consumer culture, as Sue notes. Butthere are periods of our life when the demands of that culture areactivated more, and times when those demands are activated less, or evensuspended for a time. For example: When we act altruistically and in acaring manner, we suspend the requirements of a consumer culture.While we might refine the parameters of what we mean by "rape culture,"it is still a useful term to refer to those values in society which aremore prevalent in some situations than others which validate and givepermission for rape behaviors.I have many problems with the "drive reduction approach" which Suefavors. To quote Sue "it probably expresses better the aim of mostmen, which is to satisfy, or reduce, their sex drive." No, no, no.Studies on rape consistently state that rape is "bad sex." Even serialrapists, who rape women they don't know, say that. Rather, rape isabout power, about the ability of the rapists to impose their will onthe person being raped. If they wanted to reduce their sex drive, theycould (to be blunt) masturbate.Furthermore, the term "drive reduction approach" focuses on theindividual person (typically though not always male) who has a problemwithin himself; and focuses on the rapist as a pathological individual. The material on date rape shows that the typical date rapist ishandsome, popular, sexually active - having sex but thinking he isdeserving of more. It also shows that we cannot differentiate daterapists in terms of internal personality characteristics. That leavesus with the option of looking at those aspects in the larger culturewhich validate rape in a social and cultural context.Sanaday's "rape free" society is stated not to exist. But herdiscussion of "rape free" and "rape prone" societies is instrumental inallowing us to understand a sociocultural millieu which mitigatesagainst or in favor of rape. And "rape culture" is a valid attempt tolook at those cultural values which support and reinforce rapebehaviors.Mary L. Ertel, Associate Professor, SociologyCentral Connecticut State University, New Britain, CT ertel @ ccsu.edu

i would further suggest that sue revisit the early margaret baconstudies (rutgers mid-to-late 70s)--i happened to be in her graduatepsychological anthropology class when she began recruiting subjects fora (then thought by the academy to be silly) rape study, and one of thosewho volunteered...before the study itself even began, dr. bacon had confirmed theconcrete, totally unexpected, startled-the-research-world finding of howprevalent the experience was--turned out for starters that almost allthe women in the class volunteered, as i had!i would suggest that NON-exposure to rape (and, men who do NOT rape) isthe exceptional subcultural phenomenon in american society, and thatidentifiable environmental factors (both sociocultural and locational)"protect" (or, "isolate") some subcategories of women from thisexperience, in the same way some subgroups of women are "protected" or"isolated" from poverty or glass ceilings or gender bias despite theirprevalence for women as a group and legitimate designations as part ofthe overall "character" of the culture--or, conversely, we canlegitimately label ours a "gun" culture even though there aresubcategories of men who abhor guns and violence (also with identifiablecauses of this "deviance")...debbie <louis @ umbc.edu>

In 1975, Cambridge Documentary Films, produced a film titled "RapeCulture." It included: interviews with women from rape crisis centers,women who had been raped, male prisoners working against rape inside theprisons, authors and philosophers, Mary Daly and Emily Culpepper and ananalysis of media and culture starting with the movie "Gone With the Wind"and other movie to an analysis of Hustler magazine--focussing on popularmyths about rape, particularly that women say "no" and mean "yes." Thisfilm was our second title, after "Taking Our Bodies Back: The Women'sHealth Movement" and it was very extensively used in women's studiesthroughout the United States and at internation feminist conferences. Inthe 80's we updated many parts of the film and included material fromN.Y.Women Against Rape, Take Back the Night marches and the Big Dan rapetrial. The term "rape culture" came out of long discussion that we hadabout exactly what we were trying to illustrate in the documentary and tomy recollection it was the first time it was used. Subsequently we sawarticles and book titles using this phrase. If anyone has any otherinformation about the term we would be most interested. Thank you,Margaret Lazarus for Cambridge Documentary.Cambridge Documentary Films, Inc.P.O. Box 390385 Cambridge, MA 02139-0004ph (617)484-3993 fx (617)484-0754www.shore.net/~cdfcdf @ shore.net

Mary L Ertel wrote:[snip]>At the times and places where that (sub) culture is reinforced, rape>behaviors are validated, giving permission to engage in rape.>>An analogy: yes, we live in a consumer culture, as Sue notes. But>there are periods of our life when the demands of that culture are>activated more, and times when those demands are activated less, or even>suspended for a time. For example: When we act altruistically and in a>caring manner, we suspend the requirements of a consumer culture.I still cannot agree with the use of the term 'rape culture', andthe implication that all* women are affected. And even the useof the term subculture somehow doesn't capture what is goingon. In a consumer culture, and information culture, we areimmersed in it and cannot escape it no matter what. Rape isnot comparable. Rape is just one aspect of a 'culture ofviolence'. Just like 'spending' is one aspect of a 'consumersociety'.[snip]>>I have many problems with the "drive reduction approach" which Sue>favors. To quote Sue "it probably expresses better the aim of most>men, which is to satisfy, or reduce, their sex drive." No, no, no.>Studies on rape consistently state that rape is "bad sex." Even serial>rapists, who rape women they don't know, say that. Rather, rape is>about power, about the ability of the rapists to impose their will on>the person being raped. If they wanted to reduce their sex drive, they>could (to be blunt) masturbate.If these rapists say it is about sex, shouldn't we be listeningto them? Maybe not all rapists are the same. Maybe somerapes are about drive reduction (they just want sex). Are allmen who rape the same?The focus of my argument was the term 'rape culture', which Ido not see as a metatheory. I do think that drive reductiontheory would reflect better what is going on in society.>Furthermore, the term "drive reduction approach" focuses on the>individual person (typically though not always male) who has a problem>within himself; and focuses on the rapist as a pathological individual.You know the theory then, do you? I came across the term,and put my own meaning on it. As I mentioned in my previousmessage, men's sex drive has biological, social, psychologicaland hormonal aspects to it. The 'personal' part of it is what theindividual does with this drive.[snip]>>Sanaday's "rape free" society is stated not to exist. But her>discussion of "rape free" and "rape prone" societies is instrumental in>allowing us to understand a sociocultural millieu which mitigates>against or in favor of rape. And "rape culture" is a valid attempt to>look at those cultural values which support and reinforce rape>behaviors.Then it would be preferable to call it 'rape theory'.Sue McPhersonsue @ mcphersons.freeserve.co.uk

Deborah,I have to insist I don't believe 'rape culture' is a goodterm to use. Women can be protected from rape, tosome extent, but who can live not being affected bythis consumer, information society?The analogy of 'gun culture' with 'rape culture' doesn'twork. We live in a culture of violence, and guns (andpenises) can be used as weapons of violence.Gun collectors argue that their guns are not usedfor violent purposes, although guns can be. Samegoes for penises.Violence, whether by guns or penises is only part of thestory. And the use of the term 'rape culture' does notcapture other elements of the use of penises.Sue McPhersonsue @ mcphersons.freeserve.co.uk-----

>who can live not being affected by this consumer, information society?the amish and several other orthodox religious sects. families (yesthere are many) who voluntarily decline to own a tv, computer, and/orcredit cards. large areas of predominantly rural poor and voluntarywilderness-dwellers. communities and individuals (there are many ofthese too) who choose lifestyles and activities which purposely filterout these stresses (i.e. structure input, environment and occupation sothat what is "received" is comprehensible, manageable, useful, andhealthful)...surely, everyone is "affected" one way or another by these largercontexts and dynamics (even in the active rejection them)--but in thesame way, those who are not direct subjects of rape or an immediateenvironment of coercive violence still are in the structural position ofhaving to RESPOND TO them (as, taking conscious action to insure safety,articulating opposing values/beliefs)--because they ARE the norm!...debbie <louis @ umbc.edu

Dear WMST-L:Anyone who is involved in rape research should read the chapter,"The Joy of Quickies" in John Gray's "Mars and Venus in the Bedroom".It was a huge eye-opener for me, so much so that I told my story aboutit in the January/February 2000 Feminista! article, "As Long As MenLike Mr. Mars and Venus Exist: How John Gray Helped Me Change My MindAbout the Feminists People Love to Hate". The URL is:http://www.feminista.com/v3n8/trigiani.htmlFundamentally, "Dr" Gray makes mincemeat of women's consent. SinceGray's books are so popular, I'm rather disturbed that relativelyfew activists have used them to raise consciousness, for "Mars and Venus inthe Bedroom" is an excellent way to get people thinking aboutthe nature of woman's compliance in a patriarchal society. Susan Hamsonand I are constantly raising consciousness on John Gray's advocacy of"quickies". Also, Annie Potts of the Universityof Auckland wrote a wonderful analysis of the Mars&Venus cult in "TheScience/Fiction of Sex" (Sexualities, Vol. 1(2)). Since we were notable to get the article posted on the web, I wrote a brief summary of it:http://web2.airmail.net/ktrig246/out_of_cave/potts.htmlConcerning the term, rape culture, I don't use it because it implies thatthere is no Gray Area (pun intended!) regarding consent. We need to inventnew words which connote the fine lines between rape, complaint intercourse,and consensual intercourse.Kathleen Trigianiktrig246 @ airmail.net*********************************************"Out of the Cave: Exploring Gray's Anatomy"http://web2.airmail.net/ktrig246/out_of_cave/You Don't Have to Settle For Mars&Venus!

>What I find problematic is the term 'rape culture' itself,>as I think it can be misconstrued. [snip] But there is>another meaning that is conveyed by this term, and that>is that we live in a 'rape culture', just as we live in a>consumer society or an information society. And if the>term is meant to convey that, or even if it's not, I don't>believe it is a good one to use. Unlike the 'information'>or 'consumer' culture that we live in, not everyone has>experienced rape, or anything that might pass for rape,>nor are their lives regulated by it.I haven't experienced rape (though who knows, if I hadn't succeeded infacing down attackers on several occasions) but I have experienced rapeculture and my life has been influenced by a society awash in rape, rapeimages, and rape denial. Which everyone is affected by, I think. Probablymuch more, in fact, than the "information culture" affects illiteratepeople in poverty or unwired folks. And unlike eskimo>culture, rape is widespread and not confined to a limited>area. So it the term 'culture' that I question.In that case, we will have to also stop using terms like "pop culture,""computer culture," and so on. I don't see why culture is necessarilyconfined to limited areas. In fact, hip hop and many other kinds ofculture, including religions, are international, even though they haveregional variations.>Liz Stanley refers to the 'drive reduction approach' , I>don't know the original source of that term or what exactly>is meant by it, but it seems to me it expresses more>accurately what is going on in our sexualized society, and>probably expresses better the aim of most men, which is to>satisfy, or reduce, their sex drive.The term you propose says nothing about the hostility, violence, rage andsubjugation that characterize the pattern of rape in modern societies.(Anyhow, it doesn't seem to be that uncommon for the rapist not to achieveorgasm.) "Drive reduction" doesn't address the social inducements to rapethat exist in, say, fraternity or athlete rapes where sexual conquest(literally) gives bragging rights. And it elevates the male sex drive to anuncontrollable force, which seems to me to be an essential tenet of "rapeculture."Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives <maxdashu @ lanminds.com>

Making a film about rape and calling it Rape Cultureis differerent than feminists putting forth a universalacademic theory attempting to explain social andpersonal relations between men and women andcalling it Rape Culture.Sue McPhersonsue @ mcphersons.freeserve.co.uk

>>I haven't experienced rape (though who knows, if I hadn't succeeded in>facing down attackers on several occasions) but I have experienced rape>culture and my life has been influenced by a society awash in rape, rape>images, and rape denial. Which everyone is affected by, I think. Probably>much more, in fact, than the "information culture" affects illiterate>people in poverty or unwired folks.But where do all these images about rape come from? Probablyjust as much from feminism as from patriarchal society. Andwhat is the message going out from feminism? - Look at thisexcerpt from the pages on Rape Culture:"The high incidence of rape in this country is a result of the powerimbalance between men and women. Women are expected to assume a subordinaterelationship to men. Consequently, rape can be seen as a logical extensionof the typical interactions between women and men. One way to analyze thepower relationship between men and women is by examining some of the commonsocial rules women are taught."Rape is a "logical extension" of typical interactions betweenmen and women? What this kind of statement is telling usis that our interactions with men are governed by the fact thatany continued interaction will inevitably lead to rape. This makesit virtually impossible to carry on any relationship with men, if weare constantly in fear of being raped. It seems, from this quote,that there can be no such thing as consensual sex.Again, from the web pages:" RULE #5: Causal touching orsuggestive comments in social settings are meant as a tributeto a woman's desirability".As a matter of fact, I think such things - comments or touching -can* be a tribute to women's desirability. Not always, but theycan be. They don't mean that someone necessarily is gettingready to commit rape.Web pages again: "Many women believe that being ogled bya group of construction workers is nothing more than a form ofpraise. Many sexual assaults, however, begin with a "harmless"compliment or inquiry from a rapist. His comments are a wayof testing how accommodating the woman might be. The lackof clarity about what constitutes insulting behavior and thelearned ambivalence women have about unwanted approachesmakes them vulnerable to sexual assault".My thoughts on this: What can be worse than being ogled is notbeing ogled at all! But that depends on the situation. Aren't someof these "harmless compliments" just actually harmless compliments?>In that case, we will have to also stop using terms like "pop culture,">"computer culture," and so on. I don't see why culture is necessarily>confined to limited areas. In fact, hip hop and many other kinds of>culture, including religions, are international, even though they have>regional variations.Pop culture, consumer culture and consumer culture all havepositive elements to them. Even eskimos and mennonitesparticipate in consumer culture - taking the best of our worldand integrating it with their own culture. There are good thingsabout pop culture, and bad things. Can you say the sameabout rape culture? What is good about it? It is one side -it is half the story. If we live in a rape culture, as described,how can women ever have good relations with men, if all theyare doing in their interactions with us is preparing to rape us?>The term you propose says nothing about the hostility, violence, rage and>subjugation that characterize the pattern of rape in modern societies.>(Anyhow, it doesn't seem to be that uncommon for the rapist not to achieve>orgasm.) "Drive reduction" doesn't address the social inducements to rape>that exist in, say, fraternity or athlete rapes where sexual conquest>(literally) gives bragging rights. And it elevates the male sex drive to an>uncontrollable force, which seems to me to be an essential tenet of "rape>culture."The term 'pop culture' says nothing about the things thatgo on in that world either. I would say that rape culturetheory does what you claim 'DRT' does, ie, elevate the malesex drive to an uncontrollable force, by stating for instancethat the logical extension of interacting with men is rape.Sue McPhersonsue @ mcphersons.freeserve.co.uk

Sue McPherson wrote:>Again, from the web pages:" RULE #5: Causal touching or>suggestive comments in social settings are meant as a tribute>to a woman's desirability".>>As a matter of fact, I think such things - comments or touching ->can* be a tribute to women's desirability. Not always, but they>can be. They don't mean that someone necessarily is getting>ready to commit rape.No, but it does mean that he has presumed a familiarity with the woman.And when that is either premature or entirely inappropriate, the question iswhy is it done and why is it to be considered a compliment?Casual touching co-joins the person, whether it's done to a man or a woman.It is a signal of dominance, possession, or affiliation. Yes, there arevariations, but we're talking about associates or veritable strangers insocial settings. The interesting aspect is that we see very little of thiswhen the would be recipient of such admiration is highly respected or in aposition of power. It is only done with one's intimates or to subordinatesand, in the case of a complete stranger, as a presumption of her status assubordinate and less worthy of respect. Along these same lines are endearingnames, talking down to the woman as though she is a child, and casualtouching. None of this is considered appropriate when done to a perceivedsuperior. If this is culturally acceptable to most, the term cultureapplies.>>Web pages again: "Many women believe that being ogled by>a group of construction workers is nothing more than a form of>praise. Many sexual assaults, however, begin with a "harmless">compliment or inquiry from a rapist.>>My thoughts on this: What can be worse than being ogled is not>being ogled at all!Personally, I don't care to be ogled and am not alone in that. Maybe therewould be more women with that perception if we didn't have a culture thatteaches girls that this is a compliment. It is annoying to be startled fromthought by a wolf whistle or approached by a stranger thinking he'scomplimenting me because my body is attractive to him. It is an impositionand again, a presumption of familiarity where none exists. But that depends on the situation. Aren't some>of these "harmless compliments" just actually harmless compliments?>My culture has not taught me that a compliment of my intellect is somethinga stranger would do, but it has told me that ogling my body is high praise.It is the body that's emphasized. Has this harmed me? Yes. And if I boughtinto it, it would harm me more. If I teach it to others or engage in it, Iharm them. It is cultural and it does subordinate. The quote you cited fromthe web page did not say that rape is an extension of interacting with men.It said that it's an extension of unequal power between men and women andimplied a complacency in rejecting facets of our cultural attitudescontributing to that. It is no reach of the imagination to see the term'rape culture' as expressing this extension. When those facets of culturethat lend to rape as acceptable, the term won't apply, but the above areonly a few of the ways we endorce acceptance of ourselves as bodies to beprized rather than people interacting together.Tamra TempleMcNeese State University

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:40:14 +0000 Sue McPherson <sue @ MCPHERSONS.FREESERVE.CO.UK> wrote>Liz Stanley refers to the 'drive reduction approach' , I>don't know the original source of that term or what exactly>is meant by it, but it seems to me it expresses more>accurately what is going on in our sexualized society, and>probably expresses better the aim of most men, which is to>satisfy, or reduce, their sex drive. And if it is accepted that>men do have this insatiable drive, (whether biological,>hormonal or psychosocial or a combination), then women>also are a part of this dynamic, and their experiences are>diverse. Some experience rape, some have good sex,>some use their sexual power to get what they want from>men, and so on. It is a term that does not suggest that all>women are negatively affected within a sexualized>environment, neither does it suggest that all men are>potential rapists.I have to say I'm suspicious of Sue McPherson's line of reasoning since itflows from what I think of as a hydraulic theory of male sexuality: menmust release a sexual desire signified as under pressure inside them andperpetually building, requiring release lest they -- what, explode? Thisdisrespects the complexity of desire and sexual practice for both men andwomen, by reducing men's sexuality to a hydraulic or pressure cooker model,the mechanics themselves figured as the prime motivators, and by locatingwomen as the outlets for men's ... steam.The other issue here is the amazing stock Americans put in biologizedmodels of human action and possibility: the cultural basis of these modelsusually goes unnoticed. (Relevant to this discussion too is the recentpublication of work in evolutionary psychology arguing there's a biologicaland evolutionary basis for rape.) In some parts of the world (someMelanesian societies), for example, men are understood as reluctantparticipants in heterosexual intercourse: heterosexual sex is thought tosap men's life force, make them age more quickly, pollute their bodies,drain them, and the like. In other societies (in the Amazon basin),heterosexual desire is figured metaphorically in terms of food -- penisesas tasty food sought by hungry vaginas wandering around at night in searchof satiation.The models of sexual agency and the loci of sexual desire in these schemescan in no way be reconciled with the hydraulic model, and I think thisevidences the importance of recognizing that there are multiple ways offiguring (and gendering) sexuality -- both cross-culturally and withinAmerican society. It also points suggestively to the value (and potentialpolitical usefulness) of expanding by specifying (rather than contractingby naturalizing) the variety of images and understandings people have aboutsexual desire, its founding sites, its practical manifestations, as well asanalyzing the why and how of the processes through which particularunderstandings become naturalized -- i.e., how they become linked tomasculine privilege and the reproduction of gender hierarchy (Melanesia),or to gendered violence and social control of women (U.S.). That could bea more critical, and critically reflexive, link to "rape culture."Deborah A. EllistonDepartment of AnthropologyNew York University25 Waverly Place * New York, New York 10003E-mail: deborah.elliston @ nyu.edu

Many women who are raped by men they know think it is their fault forany one of a number of reasons e.g. I should not have let him in theapartment, I should have known, I must have done something. Thus it is notsurprising , albeit dismaying, that some women date these men. Some alsothink that "men are like that" and they have to accept it.These comments have been made to me in my research and when women havedisclosed to me, which they frequently do.Pauline Bart p[bart @ ucla.edu

Dear Women,Having studied rape and rape resistance (Stopping Rape: Successful SurvivalStrategies) and , a batter term, violence against women, since all forms ofviolence v. women interaction to form a net of social control over women asa class, I would add to the concept rape culture, structural supports ofrape. By the social structure I mean how the institutions of society arecomplicit in the underreporting of rape and the lack of punishment forrapists. Included in the institutional structures are the economicinstitutions as well as the alleged criminal "justice" institutions. It isno accident that so many imprisoned women have histories of rape , incestand battery.Best, Pauline pbart @ ucla.edu

>But where do all these images about rape come from? Probably>just as much from feminism as from patriarchal society.I strongly disagree that naming the problem is the same as creating theproblem.No problem here if you disagree with any particular definition of what rapeculture might be. But as I noted before, there is no one authoritativesource for this concept, and many descriptions of it have emerged over theyears.BTW, I think two definitions of culture are getting confused in thisdiscussion. One category is an overall national or ethnic culture, and theothers we have been talking about are more general and not necessarilylimited by region or ethnicity.> If we live in a rape culture, as described,>how can women ever have good relations with men, if all they>are doing in their interactions with us is preparing to rape us?Naming a constellation of ideas/images/behaviors/ as rape culture does notequate to saying all men will rape, are rapists.Naming rape culture is saying that there are cultural expectations anddefinitions that legitimize and even promote rape. These occur in themedia, especially in advertising (remember the fashion ads showing womenbruised or lying disheveled on the ground, legs akimbo, as if they had justbeen raped) and in bestsellers like _American Psycho_ that detail tortureand dismemberment of women. They occur in the legal system, as when lawyersbrowbeat a woman on the stand (a behavior which has been curtailed in someplaces but not absolutely eliminated, as witness the difference in the waywomen and men are treated in custody cases re their sexual lives). Not tomention the low rate of prosecution and conviction for rape, and thereluctance to report rape -- founded in the difficulties thrown in women'sway personally, socially, etc.Jokes, unwelcome touching, staring, comments, following, stalking, are allbehaviors that put the burden on women, who are expected to cope withwhatever is thrown our way lest we be somehow unfair to men.All men are not rapists, but when going out on a date, or when some guycomes up from behind too quickly, how are women supposed to know who is andwho isn't? Especially when the cultural stereotypes misrepresent who islikely to rape! Either way, in a rape culture, the woman will be blamed.Juries still let off athletes who say they misunderstood what the womanwanted.>I would say that rape culture>theory does what you claim 'DRT' does, ie, elevate the male>sex drive to an uncontrollable force, by stating for instance>that the logical extension of interacting with men is rape.It doesn't say that. It describes a cultural context that enables and evenglorifies rape (witness the loving detail showing it in movies, which tendnot to depict effective female resistance, and in the made-for-TV showswhich underline the threat and power of the rapist for an hour and 20minutes and show the female triumph, after much humiliation, only in thelast minute of the show, often in a freeze-frame -- no lingering there, noaftermath.)Saying "rape culture" does not define the male sex drive as anuncontrollable given: on the contrary, it says that the epidemic of rape wesuffer under is due to cultural causes, social structures, values systems.That there is another way that respects women's boundaries, bodies, andagency.Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives <maxdashu @ lanminds.com>