hyposquasher wrote:Is it correct that ACE still can't be included here until we appear in F400?

nope, ACE can be included in here and has been eligible since they were started. Most didn't put them on the list either because a) considered them new or b) forgot to include them. they were mentioned in the PM that went out, so people wouldn't forget to consider them.

Cool. And I see as the votes are coming in we are on everyone's list. Thanks!

very observant....I think so too.Their most recent adds will boost their productivity well into the top 20.

J

There is still TFFS, MM, LHDD, MYTH all competing for those edge spots. While I think they will overtime break top 20, I think right now it's at very least arguable and not surprising to see them on and off (ie not regularly on) people's lists.

I finally remembered what I was thinking of. You remind me of Blitz Bruce. He was ever eager to avoid giving Tofu any plaudits, and the grudging fashion in which you barely include us in the top 10 gave me some serious deja vu!I'm not sure how there was ever any doubt that we were a top 10 clan from formation, but if you're looking for some vindication hopefully you'll receive it one day.

Bruceswar wrote:1. KORT - New blood and fresh life, Strong showings so far. Won CL52. TOFU - Slipped down to number 2 with the departure of Seul3. IA - Still holding Strong and playing well. Nearly took CL5 Premiere4 TSM - Still holding their own and doing well.5. LoW - Have rebounded a good bit. Lets see how CC4 turns out.6. ATL - Moving up quick some with nice wins. Can the pull off the upset over TOFU?7. PACK - New blood and some new wars going. Lets see if they can get re energized and move up again.8. OSA - Up and down as always, but tough still9. RA - Moving up the list with some very strong showings. Now they gotta hold serve.10. ACE - Moving back up the list. A few more wins and they will surely go higher.11. FALL - Dropped due to others overtaking them, not so much their play. They did have an early exit in CC4 though.12. G1 - Looks like G1 is back and ready to kick ass 13. OTP - Slipping a bit as of late. Looks like freak needs to come back!14. AFOS - Falling quick. The Wheels are about to come off?15. ID - ID is pretty quiet right now. I bet they make some noise soon.16. PIG - Also slipping a bit with a few losses, but they will come back strong I bet.17.TNC - Some of the great wind they had has been let out. Do not not sleep on TNC though, as they can still be really tough!18. MD - About the same as last time. Keep waiting for that big win.19. FOED - About even with last time. Can they rebuild to what they once were?20. RET - Sticking around this spot. They need a big win to move up further.

Leehar wrote:I finally remembered what I was thinking of. You remind me of Blitz Bruce. He was ever eager to avoid giving Tofu any plaudits, and the grudging fashion in which you barely include us in the top 10 gave me some serious deja vu!I'm not sure how there was ever any doubt that we were a top 10 clan from formation, but if you're looking for some vindication hopefully you'll receive it one day.

Bruceswar wrote:1. KORT - New blood and fresh life, Strong showings so far. Won CL52. TOFU - Slipped down to number 2 with the departure of Seul3. IA - Still holding Strong and playing well. Nearly took CL5 Premiere4 TSM - Still holding their own and doing well.5. LoW - Have rebounded a good bit. Lets see how CC4 turns out.6. ATL - Moving up quick some with nice wins. Can the pull off the upset over TOFU?7. PACK - New blood and some new wars going. Lets see if they can get re energized and move up again.8. OSA - Up and down as always, but tough still9. RA - Moving up the list with some very strong showings. Now they gotta hold serve.10. ACE - Moving back up the list. A few more wins and they will surely go higher.11. FALL - Dropped due to others overtaking them, not so much their play. They did have an early exit in CC4 though.12. G1 - Looks like G1 is back and ready to kick ass 13. OTP - Slipping a bit as of late. Looks like freak needs to come back!14. AFOS - Falling quick. The Wheels are about to come off?15. ID - ID is pretty quiet right now. I bet they make some noise soon.16. PIG - Also slipping a bit with a few losses, but they will come back strong I bet.17.TNC - Some of the great wind they had has been let out. Do not not sleep on TNC though, as they can still be really tough!18. MD - About the same as last time. Keep waiting for that big win.19. FOED - About even with last time. Can they rebuild to what they once were?20. RET - Sticking around this spot. They need a big win to move up further.

These are just my opinions so feel free to chop them up.

To answer.. OFC Ace is top 10 clan on paper, but we shall have see it on the field. This is what ACE is proving now vs LoW. It has always been opinion that to be on any list one must first show it on the field. That could be said for TOFU, KORT, or any clan that starts up. It is nothing personal vs ACE, or ATL for that matter or any new clan.

Nothing wrong with it, just felt very reminiscent of Blitz. On the face of it you are saying RA is better than Ace which is intriguing to say the least, but we have no qualms in proving what everyone should really have expected from the outset.

Leehar wrote:Nothing wrong with it, just felt very reminiscent of Blitz. On the face of it you are saying RA is better than Ace which is intriguing to say the least, but we have no qualms in proving what everyone should really have expected from the outset.

Just play your games and win them. We are thrilled to war vs you some day later. That will be a glorious battle!

Leehar wrote:Nothing wrong with it, just felt very reminiscent of Blitz. On the face of it you are saying RA is better than Ace which is intriguing to say the least, but we have no qualms in proving what everyone should really have expected from the outset.

Just play your games and win them. We are thrilled to war vs you some day later. That will be a glorious battle!

Yeah, but you missed our date for the potential Random Cup Semi's face-off Heck, Kort did the same in 1v1 Semi's!

Guess we'll just have to ensure we clash in CC4 Semi's, but it's no fun when people run away all the time

.... I guess it's because Ice is willing to do the work of putting together the data, but I still don't understand why we even bother at all with these ultra-opinionated rankings based on inconsistent speculations and feelings.

Foxglove wrote:.... I guess it's because Ice is willing to do the work of putting together the data, but I still don't understand why we even bother at all with these ultra-opinionated rankings based on inconsistent speculations and feelings.

Because they may give a better insight into the abilities of clans before the actual results prove what could already have been expected.(so theoretically it could have provided a better picture to an observer of where the likes of Atl & Ace stand before they achieved the weight necessary to appear on the F400, or indeed other myriad examples)

Indeed, even our ranking may be overinflated once we appear on the F400 because of the lower sample size (and as has happened with other with new clans before) until it solidifies into a broader base, and so where perhaps the coaches poll could still provide a clearer picture.

However, if instead the votes are only based on historic data as Bruce uses them, then perhaps the F400 provides a greater analysis & the Coaches Poll becomes surplus to requirements.

Foxglove wrote:.... I guess it's because Ice is willing to do the work of putting together the data, but I still don't understand why we even bother at all with these ultra-opinionated rankings based on inconsistent speculations and feelings.

Because they may give a better insight into the abilities of clans before the actual results prove what could already have been expected.(so theoretically it could have provided a better picture to an observer of where the likes of Atl & Ace stand before they achieved the weight necessary to appear on the F400, or indeed other myriad examples)

Indeed, even our ranking may be overinflated once we appear on the F400 because of the lower sample size (and as has happened with other with new clans before) until it solidifies into a broader base, and so where perhaps the coaches poll could still provide a clearer picture.

However, if instead the votes are only based on historic data as Bruce uses them, then perhaps the F400 provides a greater analysis & the Coaches Poll becomes surplus to requirements.

Yup, they aren't mean mugs either so we'll face stern tests in all three of our current encounters with them!

IcePack wrote:11. FALL - Dropped due to others overtaking them, not so much their play. They did have an early exit in CC4 though.

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This made me chuckle, due to the random method of opponent selection we faced ATL first round, which you've ranked 6th and have made it to Final 8 of CC4. That might explain the "early exit"

Even if CC4 was pure seeding based on F400, could you still have avoided them? Heck, being unranked at that point I guess there was still a good chance we'd have faced Afos early either way.

I think its more than just because I'm willing to put in the work, I think opinions are an important part of clans. Whether your rank says it or not, some people have opinions of certain clans that don't necessarily reflect that of the "results". Thats where rankings such like this come into play. Whether its a new top level clan (ATL / ACE) or get a bunch of new top level players, sometimes there's a need for an opinionated evaluation of a clan that isn't reflected on stats. Now, I don't think this sort of rating system is for everyone (clearly, as fox pointed out) however I do think there's sufficient reason and interest in this ranking to keep it going, even if its just for some of the clan leadership(s). Some may vote more results based (such as bruce implied) others based more on speculation of future results, but thats why its opinions.

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If CC4 was purely seeded based on F400, similar to CC3 FALL would have faced off vs TLW. Would we have avoided playing ATL? Possibly, possibly not. Depends on where they landed on the random play in for unranked clans and which quadrant they would have gone into, but we wouldn't have faced them first round. Thus, the idea of us "having an early exit" in CC4 somehow reflecting as a lower than desireable result, was what made me chuckle when the first round in our case was more like a Final 8 match up (two top 10 clans meeting) then anything else in the past for first round.

I've always been fond of this type of poll, simply for the reason it should reflect potential rather than past performance. The F400 & F41 are results-based, whereas this poll affords the opportunity to look at clans' recent acquisitions, mergers, etc and vote accordingly.

It's the distinction between a seeding system and the odds offered by a bookmaker, the two often not being in sync.