On 30/05/2011 ry wrote:>His claim that the photos and topos in the new guidebook are crap is completely>untrue. Use the Nowra guide and you will find out that you can accurately>locate and climb a far greater percentage of routes than the “honned” mentioned>Simon Carter guide. Sure the layout in the new Nowra guide is not up to>the same standard, but to hire a graphic designer would then bump the price>up to the same as the Carter and Tempest guidebooks.
...>Climbers are>a very cost conscious bunch, and after writing the guidebook and financing>it myself I could have paid out even more money and got a graphic designer>to touch it up and then bump the price up to $60.- like the Carter & Tempest>guides. What would this have achieved? Money to a graphic artist, the>extra percentage mark-up to shops for a more expensive wholesale price,>and a guide that is not one bit more accurate or useful? >The font is larger than Simon Carter’s guide but the routes are generally>opposite the photo topos rather than having to search ahead and back to>find routes matching that topo, if in fact there is a topo to match the>routes. Someone posted that the text is too large, but I say the text>in the Blue Mountains guide is only small so that Simon could fit so many>routes in, that doesn’t make it a standard guidebook text size!
....

Hi Rod

Well I wasn't really going to comment on or criticise your guidebook, I know how much work goes into them and would prefer to focus on the positive. I can understand you'd be feeling a bit defensive of your design decisions after the comments here, but I think some of your comments about my 2010 Blue Mtns guidebook are disappointing and miss the point.

We produced the 2010 Blue Mtns guidebook which covers a large geographic area and over 2700 routes in 336 pages and it sells for $60. It has a "tight" design with little wasted white space but if it had not been this way the size, weight and cost of the book would have skyrocketed. Our 2011 Blue Mtns Selected Sport book covers 550 routes in 112 pages and retails for $29.95.

If you need to make comparisons then, then I think your 700 (or so?) route Nowra book would be far better compared to our 550 route 2011 book, not the 2010 one which covers over four times as many routes as yours and has very very different design considerations! I can't remember how many pages are in your book but if you're concerned about costs then producing a slimmer book is one of the best ways to do that.

I just think you are wrong in saying that using a professional designer would have added significantly to the cost. I used a designer for several weeks with our 2010 book and two days for the 2011 book and I know he saved me an enormous amount of time (which enabled me to work on other aspects) as well as definitely helping create a far nicer, better, more usable publication -- and save on print costs. Good design has a lot to do with usability, not just athletics. If you'd just got a designer for a few days at the start of the project -- to set up the styles and page templates -- then I'm sure they could have saved you a huge amount of time too. It might also mean that more people are more inclined to buy the book which, surely, is the other side of the cost equation.

Anyway Rod, good effort, you got it finished and that's the main thing. I hope it does well for you.

How about if I thought Chris was too 'serious' a name and instead reverted to Idiot - do you think you may get a touch offended??? Baxterism? - how about the next Bluey guide change the name of some of your climbs?

The routes have names and thats what they should be called. Use the black texta to modify your guide if you don't like it but leave mine as is.

Lucky this isn't in Vic, soon you might get fined $240 if you're overheard reading the guidebook aloud.

"And under laws set to be introduced to State Parliament this week, Victoria Police will get permanent powers to slap potty-mouthed perpetrators with on-the-spot fines of up to $240 for using language deemed to be indecent, disorderly, offensive or threatening."

Seems to me that the proponents of the black texta are missing the problem. It's not the naughty words. It's not even the potty humour. Be as crude (although preferably in a clever and amusing way otherwise you just look like a dick) as you like, but in targeting groups or individuals, it becomes offensive. Kids are always going to learn to swear, in many variations. I think we should get over the fuss about certain words, then it will be so much less of an issue. But do you really want your kids to learn about the implications behind the edited names? What would you like your kids to think about blacks or about women? Isn't that the important concern, not a few words we have randomly chosen to be offended by?

On 1/06/2011 Wendy wrote:>. It's not even the potty humour. Be as crude>(although preferably in a clever and amusing way otherwise you just look>like a dick) as you like, but in targeting groups or individuals, it becomes>offensive.
Other than the previously mentioned (in another post) Hospital Rocks previously known as Boong Crag. (agree it is offensive)
What groups were targeted?? Sure its offensive and maybe in poor taste but using climb names to offend someone (individual climbers) is an age old climbing tradition.Are you upset that it wasn't done in the correct"high brow" look at me see how how clever i am manner.

> What would you like your kids to think about blacks or about women? Isn't that the important concern,

Firstly how many kids read climbing guidebooks? Not many i guess. So they are unlikely to be influenced by reading them.
Its just a guidebook !! its not a vehicle to influence or effect behavioural change. ( other than encouraging more sport climbers )

So if we extend your line of thought Wendy, does this mean that any routes with (or even potential) 'moral' or 'PC' infringments regarding the following requires changing?
- religion;
- homosexuals and other non-hetero-variants;
- politics;
- race, colour or creed;
- social class;
- drug use;
- crime;
- and any other route name that gets your knickers in a knot?

Thanks, but I get enough of the Government telling me what I can and can't do or think to allow a climbing guide to do similar. And also thanks but no thanks regarding the offer for a climbing guide to be the tutor for good morals to my children.

Clearly there's plenty of people who are annoyed at this guide, maybe you should all organise a collective of some kind and make your own guide.

To me a lot of this seems to come from that Nowra is no longer a shithole hangout for some teenage male dirtbags with drills, but Australia's top sport climbing destination. The stuff that was hilarious to the guys egging each other on in the 80s and 90s just doesn't have that context anymore.

IMO some of the 'ha ha only serious' misogynist and racist stuff is a bit off. But hey, in the end though we're talking about the nicknames for some bits of rock under suburban housing in a small town, if you really care enough that someone wanted to change 'em before putting his name on it and publishing it all to the global climbing community, yeah.

Maybe you should be worried about something more important, like access issues.

I was only refering to kids because other people did - that is all the posts saying would you hand a guide full of naughty language to your child to read. Personally, I don't care if a child reads all the language. My point was, if I was to worry about what a child might learn from those route names, i would be far more worried that they learn that racism, homophobia and misogyny is OK then they learnt to say a few new words that they will inevitably encounter anyway.