Some people have told me that when they ate what they thought to be delicious food mindfully, it turned out to be less delicious than they thought- so even simply being mindful while eating helps. Overcoming senduality is a valid (albeit not popular) part of practice.

rowyourboat wrote:Some people have told me that when they ate what they thought to be delicious food mindfully, it turned out to be less delicious than they thought- so even simply being mindful while eating helps. Overcoming senduality is a valid (albeit not popular) part of practice.

TMingyur wrote:Attachment (clinging) thus is shown to be inhering in experiencing "deliciousness"

Do you have anything to support this notion?

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

TMingyur wrote:Attachment (clinging) thus is shown to be inhering in experiencing "deliciousness"

Do you have anything to support this notion?

If you mean a sutta where the Buddha says "Attachment (clinging) is inhering in experiencing 'deliciousness'" then no, I do not have such a sutta reference.

Kind regards

In other words, it is an idea of your making.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

What is not "an idea of our making" if expressed in words and terminology?

Actually I looked up the meaning of "deliciousness" in a vocabulary and presented my conclusion.

There is no inherent reason that attachment must arise from the experience of "deliciousness." That would present some serious problems, if true.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

TMingyur wrote:Attachment (clinging) thus is shown to be inhering in experiencing "deliciousness"

Do you have anything to support this notion?

If you mean a sutta where the Buddha says "Attachment (clinging) is inhering in experiencing 'deliciousness'" then no, I do not have such a sutta reference.

Kind regards

Tell me Ming, if one discerns a vedana as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, does it infer that one is experiencing clinging, aversion or indifference towards that vedana?

kind regards

Bne

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ben wrote:Tell me Ming, if one discerns a vedana as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, does it infer that one is experiencing clinging, aversion or indifference towards that vedana?

kind regards

Bne

No.

In the case of the experience of "deliciousness of food" as soon as vedana is discerned the "deliciousness of food" fades away which is simply because consciousness cannot have two objects (vedana and alleged delicious taste of food) at the same time.

Attachment (clinging) thus is shown to be inhering in experiencing "deliciousness"

is wrong.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Ben wrote:Tell me Ming, if one discerns a vedana as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, does it infer that one is experiencing clinging, aversion or indifference towards that vedana?

kind regards

Bne

No.

In the case of the experience of "deliciousness of food" as soon as vedana is discerned the "deliciousness of food" fades away which is simply because consciousness cannot have two objects (vedana and alleged delicious taste of food) at the same time.

Kind regards

I still don't understand how clinging comes about by discerning the pleasant nature of taste?Can you explain it?

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ben wrote:I still don't understand how clinging comes about by discerning the pleasant nature of taste?Can you explain it?

It is not just a matter of "attachment" coming about by, but he said it is 'attachment is inhering in experiencing "deliciousness,"' which says something a lot stronger than merely coming about by. If it may not come about by. But if it is inhering in the experience, it always comes about by.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Attachment (clinging) thus is shown to be inhering in experiencing "deliciousness"

is wrong.

Since the context of this statement was experiencing "deliciousness" of food I cannot agree.

Kind regards

Fine, but you have not made a case for this statement. I am thinking you do not know what "inhering" (inherent) means.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Ben wrote:I still don't understand how clinging comes about by discerning the pleasant nature of taste?Can you explain it?

It is not just a matter of "attachment" coming about by, but he said it is 'attachment is inhering in experiencing "deliciousness,"' which says something a lot stronger than merely coming about by. If it may not come about by. But if it is inhering in the experience, it always comes about by.

Yes, of course. My attention was being diverted by a delicious meal I was eating while not experiencing clinging or attachment to the meal, and trying to understand Ming's reasoning.You are right - the real difficulty I am having with Ming's statements is the claim that attachment inherent in the experience of deliciousness. Its tantamount to saying that attachment is inherent in discerning the pleasant characteristic of vedana. Which is what I was getting at earlier.

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ben wrote:Tell me Ming, if one discerns a vedana as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, does it infer that one is experiencing clinging, aversion or indifference towards that vedana?

kind regards

Bne

No.

In the case of the experience of "deliciousness of food" as soon as vedana is discerned the "deliciousness of food" fades away which is simply because consciousness cannot have two objects (vedana and alleged delicious taste of food) at the same time.

Kind regards

I still don't understand how clinging comes about by discerning the pleasant nature of taste?Can you explain it?

Mere discerning in the context of dependent origination does not involve clinging. But experiencing "deliciousness" as a characteristic of some food is far from mere discerning in the context of dependent origination.

Of course you may agree or disagree. I have reached the limit of my verbal capacity so please accept if I leave it at that.

Kind regards

Last edited by ground on Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

TMingyur wrote: But experiencing "deliciousness" as a characteristic of some food is far from mere discerning in the context of depending origination.

Not necessarily.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

TMingyur wrote:experiencing "deliciousness" as a characteristic of some food is far from mere discerning in the context of depending origination.

Really, how is it different to describing a taste as 'pleasant'?And where is the inherent clinging in discerning taste as pleasant? Or the inherent aversion in discerning a taste as unpleasant? Or the inherent indifference to discerning a taste as neutral?

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725