The only humans who ever "sided" with the Horde did so out of self-preservation, and never even took up arms for the Horde. And that was enough for the other human kingdoms to destroy them. It does not set a precedent for humans in the Horde at all.
It's a stupid idea and it would take Horde bias to a whole new level.

Originally Posted by Mace

the point is it isn't new, nor is it foreign, it's always been around...

Always been around? No. You had Alterac. Which never really joined the Horde anyway, and was destroyed for even siding with them in what little they did. What humans joined the Horde between then and now? The Forsaken? Nope, they don't count. Humans view them as something to be eradicated, not members of their own race. And the Forsaken see themselves as their own race. So no, humans have not "been part of the Horde since WCII." That statement is factually incorrect. So you and ravenmoon need to stop saying it.

or do you think that living horde humans won't have a very compelling story behind their availability?

I think the idea is so stupid that any idea they come up with to justify it in the lore will be equally as stupid and enough to get me to walk away from the game for good.

The precedent isn't always the story...

That's great. You and ravenmoon go on and on about Alterac setting a precedent for humans in the Horde, and then you say precedent doesn't matter once it's pointed out to you that Alterac doesn't set any kind of precedent.

I think the idea is so stupid that any idea they come up with to justify it in the lore will be equally as stupid and enough to get me to walk away from the game for good.

if you think that's stupid, why are you still into this game? you don't have to look far to see the amount of "stupid" things in it, quite ridiculous actually judging by your standards.. oh wait you're going to try and tell me you don't play the game for the lore.. then what would it matter to you if playable humans were around or not and the story behind them? Or are you going to try and explain every lore decision as sane but some how develop myopia when it comes to this?

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it seems a neat way to tie up the balance issues, coming from a neutral perspective and taking a birds eye view, I figure that living humans on the horde is no where as far-fetched as it sounds at first.

if you think that's stupid, why are you still into this game? you don't have to look far to see the amount of "stupid" things in it, quite ridiculous actually judging by your standards.. oh wait you're going to try and tell me you don't play the game for the lore.. then what would it matter to you if playable humans were around or not and the story behind them? Or are you going to try and explain every lore decision as sane but some how develop myopia when it comes to this?

I think you're creating a notion for him. He never said he didn't think things in the game were stupid. He only said that he believes living Humans on Horde-side is so stupid that it warrants his leave from the game. Obviously he cares enough about the lore for this to affect him.

Also, I don't get your reply. You didn't argue anything against his lore argument, but just attacked his personal view on the matter.

As for balance, there are many things that can happen to make the game more balanced (population-wise) rather than making living Forsaken Humans (which is a contradiction as a whole). From a subjective standpoint, it seems that Humans are the most popular race on the Alliance because they are really the only Alliance race with a superb PvP racial. Their looks don't seem to be making an impact on their playability, only the racial.

I do care about the lore, hence why I feel strongly about humans in the Horde being less then desirable.
And no, I never said the game's been perfect up until now. It's had its fair share of missteps. Some bigger then others. Nothing they've done up until now, however, is as stupid as adding humans to the Horde would be.

As for balance, again it comes down to that being a part of game play. When you decide what faction and race you're main will belong to you need to consider everything, including racials. You want EMFH? You play Alliance. It's part of the game play. Simple as that. Given the Horde's PVP dominance it's clear they're not missing it either.
And you keep going on about balance like it needs to be fixed ravenmoon. It really doesn't. The Alliance is the overall more popular faction, but the Horde seems to have an edge when it comes to end-game players. So it's pretty balanced as it is.

All humans in the Horde would accomplish would to to ruin the lore and add to the already long list of complaints Alliance fans complain about because you've just stripped the exclusivity away of their most iconic and widely-played race. Nothing good comes from it.

I think you're creating a notion for him. He never said he didn't think things in the game were stupid. He only said that he believes living Humans on Horde-side is so stupid that it warrants his leave from the game. Obviously he cares enough about the lore for this to affect him.

Also, I don't get your reply. You didn't argue anything against his lore argument, but just attacked his personal view on the matter.

As for balance, there are many things that can happen to make the game more balanced (population-wise) rather than making living Forsaken Humans (which is a contradiction as a whole). From a subjective standpoint, it seems that Humans are the most popular race on the Alliance because they are really the only Alliance race with a superb PvP racial. Their looks don't seem to be making an impact on their playability, only the racial.

it's really pointless having lore arguments on development threads, because you create the lore to execute your change.

what's the point arguing about undead can't be cured, or humans can't be on horde when you can just simply write it to be so if you need them to be there to make your game work better? They've done this countless times, yes they change lore for gameplay...druids are no longer male and night elf only, blood elvs are on the horde, night elves cast and use magic, shaman and warlocks are on the alliance, .. hell the forsaken joined the horde, and the night elves joined the alliance.. see my point?

one can only expose a problem, identify a plasuible solution, and suggest it's execution and in this case the potential lore that can be written. As for the precedents I bring up with regards to humans on the horde, they are merely to break you into the idea and show you that it's not as strange as it sounds, it's there but has been packaged in a way you may not notice it, but that's essentially what it is.

I could reverse to pre forsaken annoucnement and said
"how would you feel if hummans were playable on the horde" -- okay, but these are not your garden type humans, these are were the ones slain by the plague and raised undead, you play a zombie human - just like i made a post about htis or about vampires.. wanna bet the reaction would have been identical to these posts if not even more opposed?

it's a reason why blizzard don't offer their plans for public discussion for the fans to decide whether it should be or not, they just announce and run with it.

I appreciate what you are saying Cmats4020, and Disreali you too, I did ask for your views and how you would feel, I need to get persistent sometimes just really to try and make sure you've viewed all the angles trying to get a genuine opinion - i don't always get that, in fact I rarely do, an dhave to porbe and dig a bit. I know some people may find that offensive, like i'm questioning their ability to understand, but they shoudln't take it so personally, it's a game forum, I have no idea how engaged my reader is, and can only respond based on what he says.. so if he gives me a "NO, NO, no" response or a "what an idiotic, stupid idea, shove it up your a**hole" kind of response, well you can see my intellectual curiousity is not satisfied.

anyway.. I can appreciate how hard it is to swich perspectives or see thigns through a different lense, , and not everyone is good at that, I appreciate it and tend to come at responders from that angle, - it may be I use too many words and end up confusing people more, I apologise, but I hope you get the jist.

Finally I also appreciate all said and done, understanding everythig I've talkked about, you may not agree and may not like the idea anyway. You could easily have been one of the ones that didn't like the idea of the blood elves joinig the horde, or paladins going both factions, or the night elves joining the alliance etc etc.

at the end of the day, I doubt anyone would quit of this, why shouldthey quit over something already there and that is only a small part of the game even though it's introduction is engineered to have a big changeto the game and not necessarily the lore (blood elves had a huge impact on the game,namely horde numbers, but their lore impact was very small utnil it started picking up again in MoP), living human forsaken likewise are just one sub-group out of at least 10 and possibly 20, there are tons of other choices about that could have a barely minimum effect on the lore, that's not to say the lore introducing them won't be engaging and interesting and compelling, but hey, sub-races are not going to get the exposure a full race get, and there is an expansion theme here, sub-races give depth to the individual races, it's not like when a new full race like draenei/Belf/Worgen/Goblin or panderian were introduced where it was much more than just introducing them, they had massive roles to play in each o those expansions, now you're dealing with 10 sub-races, the lore approach is going to be different, you're not going to have forsaken humans the main focus of the horde , which is what you may be thinking is happening here.

Anyway, big lore developments can happen that have very little effect or impact, their big yes, some of them told well, others barely mentioned, but for all the "big"ness to a fans mind it may have had, look what effect it had overall? e.g.look how much effect on the lore night elves leraning arcane magic has had with lore? You really do write it as you go along based on the needs you have..something that may seem a big deal to a long term fan might not be to adeveloper or the really be taht much of a deal in the long run.

All humans in the Horde would accomplish would to to ruin the lore and add to the already long list of complaints Alliance fans complain about because you've just stripped the exclusivity away of their most iconic and widely-played race. Nothing good comes from it.

How would it ruin lore? or do you mean it would ruin it for you, why?
Actually I think it would have a very positive effect on the alliance, and the way you present them would determine how they are perceived.

The novel Tides of Darkness only describes Perenolde's non-aggression treaty and directing his forces away from the Horde's route.“The situation has changed,” Perenolde informed him, aware that he was sweating heavily—and that his officers had noticed. “I have reconsidered our options, and have decided to realign ourselves in the conflict. Alterac is no longer a part of the Alliance, effective immediately.” He took a deep breath. “Believe me, we are far better off this way.”
The officers all looked surprised. “How do you mean, your Majesty?” Kavdan asked.
“I have formed a nonaggression treaty with the Horde,” Perenolde replied. “We will not hinder their progress through the mountains, and in return they will leave Alterac unharmed and untouched.”
...
“But they are not incapable of reason. I met with their leader. He spoke Common! He listened, and he agreed to leave us in peace if we do not hinder their passage.”

In Beyond the Dark Portal, Perenolde is assists the Horde to reclaim his kingdom's independence:“During the war, you formed a treaty with the Horde.”
“Yes?” Perenolde made the connection. “Yes!” he said quickly. “Yes, I did. With Doomhammer himself! I was an ally! I am on your side!”
...
“I have the book,” he admitted. “Or rather, I had it stolen from Stormwind and I know where it is.” He brushed absently at the wine stain on his sleeping clothes. “I thought I might need it as a bargaining chip. The Alliance has claimed my throne and my kingdom because I helped your kind in the last war.”
...
Perenolde considered. “I will give you the book…for a favor.” The rider did not speak, but something in his bearing indicated he was still listening. “The Alliance has stationed troops here in my kingdom, to watch me and to control me. Destroy them, and the book is yours.”

Are you still on about this shit? Seriously?! Just drop it and never talk about it again!

If people are so vain and superficial that they need to be catered to by being able to play as a human no matter the faction they pick they might as well not pick up the game in the first place. Blizzard should make no effort to reach and satisfy these people in the first place because they're obviously vain enough to disregard an almost 20 year old story line if there's actually people doing what you're founding your entire thesis round.

Warriors of Draenor hits, the fanfare and plot of the new expansion that hails back to classic wow roots and the most popular expac TBC is announced, and with it they unveil what some of the new race models look like.

The announcement also follows that each race new model will be launched with some sub races. Orcs getting Mag'har orcs and dragonmaw orcs, but forsaken getting undead elves and humans that look really good (not alliance humans) because they are using new blood elf models humanized (i.e. blood elf models with animation but human ears/eyes/eyebrows/facial hair(men) and some human hairstyles replacing some of the more elven male styles)

Like all sub-races, they are based off models of existing ones and the reason why these humans show up on the forsaken race group is because a dynamic development happened to a fairly large group of undead that found themselves made fully alive again. They waste no time ofc, 6 of the most able rogues who got turned are tasked by the Sylvannas herself to infiltrate the alliance intelligence before the news spreads... and they tell the exciting plot and unveil the mystery behind this over the expansion.

The real reason behind this is because humans are far too popular & are the reason the alliance numbers keep beating the horde almost 60:40 people (esp new subs) keep picking humans despite all efforts made to make horde much more attractive. Rather than keep this bias up, they decided to give the horde a version of humans too as one of the sub-group races

I know to some it sounds really way out there, but before you write the first thing that comes to your mind, STOP a sec, actually think about it and imagine. Don't think of these are alliance humans joining the horde, they are not, they are horde members made living human again. Let me know how you feel about this, why you feel the way that you feel - be open minded

Remember this group are forsaken that got changed back, against their will. They really do hate the alliance for trying to wipe them out when they were undead, so they're loyal to the horde, but also to bear in mind, hating the alliance doesn't mean they're evil, and it's quite possible to write good roles for them, a story of redemption, loyally forsaken, but different because of this transformation.

How will you feel about playing this kind of human on the horde, how do you feel it will affect the game? This is not a proposal topic, it's an exploration one, imagine what if. I will expand on the reasons this will benefit the franchise later, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

They don't need to be human, they just need to be undeads who look slightly... Less dead.

Facially they can still be ripped apart, but just make them stand a bit more upright, maybe not symmetrical, maybe wth a few missing limbs.

Make them resembled "zombies" more than undead and they will be equally popular. You just can't actually copy paste a human for lore reasons, but so long as the armour looks good on them, zombies are a sub undead race sounds impressive and like it could be a success.

Litterally I'm just picturing a cleared up version of the sort of zombies that spawn during gluth (the dog, random loot dropper, you jump out the sewer pipe from naxxramas) That you've seen oftern enough in game, they chase you and go "augh, rumph, omph, rahg"

Sub classes sounds really exciting though, and it won't upset players if they keep the old models too.

Their models are changing quite soon, you may like the new ones a lot more.
Secondly, I would rather use humanized versions of the new blood elf models than the new alliance human models, it would help visually highlight their difference. Afterall Northern Europeans look different from Meditarraneans or from Africans, but they're still the same race. So if my source of humans for the horde are Lordaeron citizens who became undead forsaken and got made alive again to living forsaken, I wouldn't have to give them the same models or the same variety of customizations..especially if i wanted to maintain the distinctly different look and feel between horde and alliance as much as possible

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Originally Posted by Murdeh

They don't need to be human, they just need to be undeads who look slightly... Less dead.

snip.

Agreed, another route could also be some sort of human san'layan (vampire-type) looks human (uses blood elf model modified for humans), but are still not living. Would make a cool sub-group of forsaken too. As long as you have something that looks like human or can pass close enough to it. And i repeat you don't have to use the alliance human model, use a humanized version of the new blood elf model

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Originally Posted by Laukkanen

If people are so vain and superficial that they need to be catered to by being able to play as a human no matter the faction they pick they might as well not pick up the game in the first place. Blizzard should make no effort to reach and satisfy these people in the first place because they're obviously vain enough to disregard an almost 20 year old story line if there's actually people doing what you're founding your entire thesis round.

good thing you're not in charge of this product and have to ensure it works well and optimally, and you don't have to examine information, statistics, puzzle out difficult problems that affect more than peoples fancies. If you've liked what this company has put up as lore in the past, you'd like how they spin the forsaken human sub-group, don't be so readily opposed to something because it sounds impossible. you should have seen those people opposed to Elves coming from trolls, and that is not as good a move as this is.

And blizzard is a company, they cannot just cater for 30-40 year olds who've been following them from their teen/tween years, you have to plan and accomodate for new players, and you need to attract them and have them fit into both factions. They almost always go human, the interesting lore on how this is possible is specifically designed for the 20 year long fans who know the story, and there have been much weaker story lines for lore changes that have been much bigger than this.

Honestly, I wish you could pick your race, then pick your faction. So yah Humans on the Horde, I can see it working in lore after all there are lots of humans in every faction in the game besides Horde Player factions. This includes many evil Burning legion aligned horde factions.

Honestly, I wish you could pick your race, then pick your faction. So yah Humans on the Horde, I can see it working in lore after all there are lots of humans in every faction in the game besides Horde Player factions. This includes many evil Burning legion aligned horde factions.

yep, it is becoming clear to me how many people in this thread don't realize how well they've been managed -- that you wouldn't realize that humans have long since been playing a part in the horde even as playable just shows how well the package manages their perception, because they just don't see it.. but you mention hey.. humans on the horde, it's suddenly lore breaking when it's been happening since WC2..

why does it appear that way? well because they're automatically thinking of alliance humans, the other humans that play a part in teh horde do not strike you as alliance at all because htey're not presented that way. theys truggle with this presentation, because i haven't been successful enough in presenting the horde humans. Because I approached this topic as a developer would assuming most readers would pick up the "construction in place" nature of the proposal and see past humans are alliance.

sometimes words don't do the job well enough as visible presentations - afterall everytime humans were shown in the horde, they were presented, they weren't discussed first in a forum topic posed as a hypothetical situation. i'm still convinced perception is responsible for the most of the naysayers objections and only a handful I am convinced actually genuinely and truly don't like the idea, one of them I am thinking doesn't like it because I presented it and for no other reason.