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Thelasko writes "I'm sure many here have been the victim of bullying at some point in their lives. A new study suggests why. '...now researchers have found at least three factors in a child's behavior that can lead to social rejection. The factors involve a child's inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from their pals.' The article sketches out some ways teachers and councilors are working with bullied kids to help them develop the missing social skills."

Yep, you can fix the bullying problem in a week by ending the "blaming the victim" mentality inherent in the people in charge.

The rule is really damn simple: you don't bully anyone. If you do, you get punished.

Good elementary school administrators do not tolerate bullying.Good high-school administrators do not tolerate bullying.Good college administrators do not tolerate bullying.Good bosses at firms do not tolerate bullying.

If you want to suck as an administrator, go right ahead: you make the law, but pleased don't get too upset when we slash your tires and put sugar in your gas tank. You are making the rules and judging, we vote in the only ways we can vote in this situation.

Problem is, how do you know what is bullying and what is not? Its pretty easy for someone to say they were verbally "harassed" by someone and have the backing of 2 or 3 friends to bully someone. A lot of remarks can simply be taken out of context and used against someone. Problem is, bullying is mostly hearsay and very subjective. What one person considers bullying is different than another person. Plus, things are different between friends, I know that some of the remarks I say around friends could be taken to a casual observer as bullying but of course its not. Even worse is when the other person denies it but they think that somehow the "bully" has manipulated the "victim" into not talking.

I think you'd have to be a pretty big idiot to have a hard time spotting the difference between harsh interaction between friends and outright bullying. My friends and I said some mean shit to each other (and still do!) but the person on the receiving end isn't usually cowering, cringing or crying. Not to mention the fact that any decent teacher/administrator is going to have a good idea of what kids consider each other friends. That kid kneeling down in the mud crying in front of the bigger kid? He is

Ok, I think the broken teeth from having the face smashed into a wall, the scars on the forehead from having a half brick thrown at me, and the scars on my torso and arms from sharp objects (broken glass, usually) used to slice me count as bullying.My social skills were fine. I could pick up on the "non verbal cues" very accurately, and to this day, I'm considered highly adept at that.Basically, this research is saying "We'll find ways to make sure you follow the crowd", rather than being a little different (hey, I read Lord of the Rings at 5 years old, and loved physics and cosmology; yes, I was "different").What happened with all this bullying? Well, the do gooders simply said "You have to understand them; they come from a deprived background. They're having a hard time at home".Bzzt. Wrong answer. This attitude got me a nervous breakdown by the time I was 11 amidst all the school's hand wringing over how they could improve the lot of a bunch of yobs who wanted to do nothing more than talk about football all day, and beat up anyone who didn't want to do that.

Interestingly, I once had a client who'd worked out a way to pretty much cut bullying out. He was an explorer, who'd settled for a while in England and set up a company. This company used the knowledge he'd picked up across a goodly many expeditions, and allowed him to set up a whole host of challenges in 'adventure grounds', so there were the rope bridges, rope climbs, climbing walls etc; all the stuff to challenge the physically oriented kids, who went out and proved how physically gifted they were, and got real respect for achieving something. Places that contracted him to install the grounds had an 80%+ reduction in bullying across the board, and classroom results had a marked improvement.However, in the early 2000s, Health and Safety got their teeth into this, and said the ground were "too risky", and disallowed further installations, while shooting up the insurance premiums on schools that had them. End result, the grounds were removed from places that had them, bullying went up and grades went down. But it was cheaper.

There are those that bully because they need to prove themselves, and grounds like that will cater to them. And there are those that bully because they're nasty. Those need to be weeded out and taught hard lessons early.It is NOT due to some kid not picking up on non-verbal clues. We pride ourselves on being an enlightened and accepting society, so why is it that some kid who may be far brighter than the rest (I've noticed that those tend to act and perceive the world in a different way) needs to suddenly understand the ways of kids far less enlightened? Why not hold the lowest denominator to higher standards?

Yeah because we all know we (especially as kids) are all little robots who never think anything like that... We are not all equal. Some people are dumber than others, some people look differently, some people are ugly and some aren't. Its the basis for jokes and entire societies. Anything can be taken as an insult, saying "hes black" can be taken as an insult when its a perfectly valid description.

Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, this isn't "blaming the victim". This is giving victims something that can do in their own lives to end or mitigate bullying. That isn't blame, that's empowerment.

The TFA I read discussed social rejection, and noted that bullies often focus on the socially rejected. This isn't about using your social skills to charm the bully (lol), it's about using them to get friends and hoist yourself out of the immediate target population, or at least get yourself on a better footing to fight back (most bullies have their own social issues - if you can sort yours out that's an automatic advantage).

I've been bullied. I watched other kids get bullied too. I got rid of my bullies by not behaving like the other victims, not by beating anybody up (as if I could). I realized that the only targets were people who were isolated from the main social group and unwilling to fight back (in most cases by their own low self-esteem) and made an effort to not be one of them. I learned to control my emotions so I could think clearly in social situations that weren't going how I wanted. I learned to actually pay attention and read other people's body language properly. I learned the social rules. I made friends outside my usual circle.

The guys that spent 5 minutes between classes laughing at me in the halls every day (not hardcore bullying but hardly pleasant, I assure you)? Most of them weren't being sarcastic or mean like I thought. They were confused by how incongruously I acted. I was the one that was too stupid to read their expressions correctly. Once I clued in, I stopped escalating simple misunderstandings (I actually thought I was sticking up for myself) and quickly made friends with many of them. I had no trouble ignoring the few asshole opportunists (most of who were doing it due to their own self esteem issues) in the lot who were jumping in with a nasty quip just because they saw they had a chance to get a laugh at my expense. Over the next few weeks I got rid of a good two thirds of the grief I'd get at school (the low grade harassment) in this way. I'd say fixing this one mistake of mine is probably where I started to really build my self-confidence.

The scary looking thug (huge muscles, tattoos, scars, rumors that he's done nasty things - seriously scary fucker) that went around threatening people into giving him free shit? The confidence I'd gained making some friends was enough to keep me calm around him. Calm enough to see his insecurity screaming through every little gesture (fucked up home life, he had a lot to be insecure about). Flat-out told him "no" when he punched me and told me to give him my CD collection. He was stunned, I don't think he'd ever seen someone calmly stand up to him before (I admit, it freaked me out afterwards - he had opened up with a punch). He wandered off as though nothing had happened and didn't bother me again.

The asshole who'd steal my shit, trip me, shove my head into my locker, heckle me in class (WTF teachers, how did that shit ever fly?), throw things at me, etc every single chance he got? I was his favorite victim until a few months after I started turning myself around. He turned out to be desperately afraid he'd lose his friends' respect if he didn't act all tough. Getting the courage to go and talk to them (his friends) and find out that they didn't really like him was the key to getting rid of him. Desperate fuckers turn out to be easy to bait, and I only had to get myself seen with his buddies regularly for a few weeks before he freaked out about them ditching him and did something stupid enough to get them to actually ditch him. He never bothered me again. I'd actually been hoping to get something out of them that I could blackmail him with, but I'm not one to complain if a problem takes care of itself.

So I disagree that TFA's conclusion is some bullshit way to avoid having to actually punish bullies. We're social creatures, and learning how to navigate the social web (rather than hovering helplessly around the edges) is definitely empowering. I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone that would just beat the shit out of a bully, but it's hardly the only way to deal with things (and I've seen a couple of guys that did that get shunned even more for being "dangerous" hotheads).

You can piss and moan all you want about people being dicks and guess what - they will still be dicks. Its like those personal ads where the girl says things like "no jerks need reply" - like that would ever stop a jerk. The only person you have control over is yourself.

I would have KILLED for training in basic social mores and skills as a child - just rote, repetitive stuff the same as any other kind of training, so that what I did not know naturally I could at least fall back on manually learned behavior. We put kids who are slow in math and reading in classes that teach to their level - how about classes that teach social conventions and behaviorism for kids who are slow at that?

What helped me was someone asking an older kid at my church (yes, I once was religious) to give me some pointers on how to deal with the bullies that were always after me. We went for a walk and when we were alone, he sat me done and said "Punch them. Plain and simple, bullies are cowards, and the minute you bloody their nose, they don't want anything to do with you."

Not exactly a Christian message of cheek turning, but in the end that's exactly what I did. When I was fifteen, a big prick who had been hastling me shoved me on the stairs into school, and I dropped my books, turned around and socked him one in the ear. Hurt like a son of a bitch, but the bastard just took one look at me, utterly confused, and then walked away, and never ever looked at me again.

A lot of schools today have "zero tolerance" policies toward fighting. It doesn't matter if he started it; it doesn't matter if you were defending yourself. You are disciplined if you are in a fight with another student.

It just changes the risk/reward calculus. If the abuser and abused are equally punished, it makes more sense to go after the bully first. It pays off in the long run, once they start avoiding you.

But even dicks can be defused and deflected with a few social skills, a bit of verbal bantering, etc.

Most dicks want to be liked and respected but settle for being feared.

It is possible to deal this way with most bullys, but the skill set required is often something that won't be learned by the bulling target for a year or maybe two.

We keep kinds back (retain them in lower grades) for academic reasons, but seldom for social reasons. Often, I suspect, simply delaying entry into school for socially awkward kids might solve a lot of this. Either that or enroll overly aggressive kids a year ahead of time.

Age driven school enrollment is probably the root cause of much of the bully problem

We keep kinds back (retain them in lower grades) for academic reasons, but seldom for social reasons. Often, I suspect, simply delaying entry into school for socially awkward kids might solve a lot of this. Either that or enroll overly aggressive kids a year ahead of time.

Are you f'n serious? Keep bullied kids back a year and further bully them ("The System" bullies them by keeping them back a year), encouraging more bullying (the bullies are now armed with, "dumb dumb just got kept back a year") and docking them one year of pay (they now lose out on one year's income potential before retirement)?

Fix the problem: punish the bullies and the teachers and parents that turn a blind eye to them.

The best thing to do with a grade school bully (assuming I'm talking to someone the same age) is to hit them in mouth. Hard. You well then either get hit back a couple of times -- which will hurt, but not be tragic -- or not. In either case, the bully will find someone else to pick on. Learning that getting beat up on the playground isn't the end of the world can itself be incredibly freeing -- and usually leads to it never happening again.

I have no patience for bullies -- but I have even less patience for helicopter parents who replay their own sad lives as victims through their kids and insist the world be made into a padded safety zone where nobody says mean things or looses at tag any more.

Actually studies have shown the complete opposite (I read it on paper) [sciamdigital.com]. It used to be fashionable to attribute this kind of behavior to low self esteem, until someone actually bothered to investigate this, and found that bullies actually tend to have unrealistically high self esteem and tend to be more bold and impulsive than average.

From this, the logical next step would be to subject a bully to so much abuse that his self esteem is shattered and see if this changes their behavior. This would obviously be immoral.

Once upon a time there was a bully. He bullied a lot of kids. One day he bullied the outcast. He shoved the outcast from behind as he was walking by. The outcast was slammed into the lockers and split his lip. The bully walked away laughing. That evening the outcast and his one lone friend came back to the school with a hacksaw, a school issue combination lock and two large garbage bags. While the friend stood watch at the end of the hall the outcast sawed the lock off the bully's locker. It took no more than a minute to empty the bullies locker into the garbage bags. The outcast locked the locker back up with the lock he brought. The garbage bags were tossed into a dumpster behind the gas station.
The next morning the outcast watched from a distance while the bully tried to open his locker. The school locks all looked the same but his wouldn't open. Eventually the principal and the custodian came with some bolt cutters and the lock was cut. The locker was opened and inside was....nothing. No gym clothes, no textbooks, no almost complete woodwork project, no homework, no notes, no tennis racket, no leather jacket, no anything. The bully may have eventually realized that one of his victims had gotten even, but who it was, he never knew. He bullied a lot of kids.

Well the study seems to be saying fault lies with the victims of bullying. Imagine the study was a bit different and instead of blaming the victims of bullying it blamed a different sort of victim...

Studies Reveal Why Women Get Beaten and Raped

Women who get beaten and raped by men may be more likely to have problems in other parts of their lives, past studies have shown. And now researchers have found at least three factors in a woman's behavior that can lead to being violently abused.

The factors involve a woman's inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from men, as well as inability to listen and not knowing when to shut her mouth.

Bullies are scum. No 'if onlies,' no 'buts.' There's no reason why a kid with difficulty understanding social cues should spend grade school making sure an upper grade bully got fat off his lunch money. No one 'makes' a bully steal your stuff, throw tarred rocks at you or generally lurk around for a chance to otherwise make your life miserable. All understanding the social cues offers is the knowledge of whom to avoid. There's a reason so many bullies go by handles like "Chopper," "Dumbo" and "Buddy" (all ones that I knew personally) and it isn't because they're brightest bulbs in the lamp. However, my dad always said 'don't get mad, get even.' I expect that Buddy never did understand why when he stole my home work he still got D's, and I still got A's.

Yet punishing both the victim and the aggressor remains a bad solution to this problem. It rewards the bully by punishing his (or her) victim twice: once at the hands of the bully, once at the hands of the authorities. The fact that meting out actual justice is difficult is not an excuse to discard the notion in favor of simple and brutal solutions.

You know, I'm not going to defend those cretinous bullies at all, but I will add that there are more than just physical bullies. Kids can be jerks. Whether they're smart, dumb, geek, jock, whatever. I've seen some pretty cruel behavior amongst geeks. Perhaps not so overt as a "give me your lunch money now!" bully, but bullying just the same.

IMHO it's part of figuring out human society. Geeks/nerds/other may like to pretend that they're beyond the social ladder and the BS of others, but it's there in other ways. By the time one is 20, it should be about all figured out (hah)

Let me extend on this with a brief experience of mine that drives this point really, really well. I was a really active debater during my high school years. (Not sure if it's there anymore, but I loved it!). Now, considering that most people I meet nowadays automatically relegate debate as a nerdy activity, one would (correctly) assume that the community attracts a pretty niche crowd. There were all kinds of people: liberals, hippies, scientists, philosophers, etc.. We had some slower folks, but they usually went by the wayside. Nonetheless, almost all of us had a really strong commonality: we were all geeks.

Many of us were tossed around and bullied during middle and/or high school, so the debate community insulated us from that somewhat. We could be weird and quirky, but still have fun being ourselves. However, there were always the elite folks. These were the creme de la creme: some of whom were the best debaters in the country. They formed their own cliques of greatness and practically shunned everyone "beneath" them. I've had people in my own team toss the less accomplished around in amusement, and I've even been harrassed by my own partners many times. I still loved debating, but that made it especially hard.

On top of that, getting bullied by smart people is, in some ways, worse than getting bullied by "brutes" because their methods of bullying people are usually more harmful and more subtle, thus being easier to let slide.

The alphas are alphas. The betas are worried about their position and therefore often turn to bullying those beneath them to keep them down. The deltas, gammas, and omegas are below.

I wish I could remember the studies offhand, but there were a handful where the did some social experimentation by taking groups of bullies and isolating them together as a social group: Some stayed bullies, some got bullied. The more interesting study was when they took the bullied kids and isolated them together: new bullies formed while others remained on the bottom.

School seems to be one of the worst environments for bullying, and there's a good reason for that: There are no alphas in the crowd. Instead, the role of alpha is taken by the teachers/administration (the ones with real power) and because they are "separate" from the kids in High Security (erm.. high school) it's next to impossible for the deltas-gammas to bond with the alphas in order to become safe from the actions of the betas.

I had the misfortune of having to work with someone who bragged about being a bully during her high school years. It wasn't hard to believe her, but I consoled myself that she was 15-20 years older than I was and we were earning the same money doing the same god-awful data entry job.

Actually - your sarcastic explanation of rape may not be as wrong as you assume. Give it some serious thought. In real life, I knew a girl who got rid of a a dog, because the dog didn't like her new boyfriend. I TOLD her that she should trust the dog's judgement. After years of abuse, and a divorce, she admitted that she should have kept the dog.

Of course, suggesting that people in general, and women in particular, choose to ignore hints, cues, and clues that they are in danger isn't going to win any friends or respect. Especially among the women's rights activists.

Of course, suggesting that people in general, and women in particular, choose to ignore hints, cues, and clues that they are in danger isn't going to win any friends or respect. Especially among the women's rights activists.

Here's the thing: you're right, people who are the subject of violence can often (although certainly not always) do things to avoid being placed in a situation where violence is the end result. Pick up on the social cues bullies give off. Avoid dangerous streets or walking home alone. Don't wear such provocative clothing. And I say all that as a liberal, feminist, lesbian, intellectual, liberal arts major. That list could go on, but suffice it to say I am exactly the demographic who might be expected to dismiss or disagree with you, point blank. (And, indeed, I'm about to disagree with you. But I wanted to note that I don't totally disagree with you.)

Because you're also right that saying so won't win you points among many women's rights circles. And here's why: the ultimate responsibility for wrongdoing lies with the one committing the immoral act.

Bullies are responsible for bullying. Thieves are responsible for theft. Rapists are responsible for rape. Murderers are responsible for murder.

The point the grandparent was making was that there is a fine line between acknowledging ways to reduce one's risk and crossing over into victim-blaming. Likewise, it's really easy to leap from "kids can take specific actions to lesson the chance of being bullied" to "any child who was being bullied must have not taken proper action to avoid it!" And I believe that your argument is drifting in that direction

Had you stuck with saying that "people in general sometimes make poor decisions, which in turn can contribute to their being the victims of others" I wouldn't disagree for a second. But in your phrasing, you imply that "people in general, and women in particular" are all making these choices that result in bad things happening to them. Because, apparently, no child has ever been bullied, even though he did everything 'right.' No one has ever been walking home with a group of friends, in a well-lit area, not late at night, and still been mugged. No woman has had the poor misfortune of being assaulted or raped simply because of bad luck.

But even if that weren't the case - even if people were only bullied or raped after exhibiting clear, identifiable, preventable behavior - it still wouldn't excuse bullying, rape, or victim-blaming!

Again, I agree that people can often take steps to lesson their chances of being victims.

the ultimate responsibility for wrongdoing lies with the one committing the immoral act.

The victim has the will to stop the abuse but lacks the power, the abuser has the power but lacks the will to stop.

Until such time as the abusers of the world agree to stop voluntarily (only a portion will ever do so) the other available response is to empower the victim. Whether your chosen method of empowerment is more cautious behaviour, increased social skills, improved/legal/justice system response or the personal carry of firearms I leave to your judgement. If you do nothing, though, you are relying on people who have chosen evil to instead do good, a very risky proposition.

I'm pretty sure there is a strong fundamental need to establish dominance.

You, sir, are an idiot.

People (and animals) have a drive to achieve dominance, however evolution developed it to be just strong enough to make sure that positions of power are not occupied by individuals vastly inferior to the rest of the group. Make it slightly higher, and the amount of infighting will destroy the group from the inside before environment and enemies will get to it. Make is slightly lower, and packs/tribes/... will be led by leaders incapable of making reasonable decisions, communicating with the rest of the group and organizing common activities.

The culture of modern American society already elevated this competitiveness to dangerous levels, and this is why you are being led by sociopaths. Telling people that they "need" to dominate others, plays exactly into the hands of those sick leaders -- it imposes pathological behavior onto the rest of society, and makes it impossible to recognize the disease in those who have it.

Yes, but what you are talking about is a psychopath, not a bully. Psychopaths are, I suppose, a kind of bully, but they really ought to be treated as a special case. Thinking of all bullies as psychopaths is a bad idea, because it makes it harder to recognize and deal with garden variety bullying. Oh, my little Johnny can't be a bully, because he's not a monster. Well, the unfortunate and scary thing about human nature is that you don't have to be a monster to sometimes act like one.

Personally, and this is my own anecdotal observations, many bullies have a rather interesting common characteristic in common with their victims: vulnerability. Bullies pick on the vulnerable, which is not a behavior a secure person engages in. Bullies have a particular interest in marking somebody as being at the bottom of the social heap, because they know that's where they belong. They gain security and within limits, enhanced status by placing the weakest solidly at the bottom of the pecking order.

If you ever watch a clique, watch the dynamic between the top dog and the bottom-most one that is "in". The bottommost "in" person is nearly always the nastiest in the group toward outsiders, because he or she is hanging on by his teeth and can't afford to be displaced. The top dog can be more magnanimous, which reduces the security of the underlings and makes them more eager to please.

I was picked on mercilessly in my first period gym class for an entire semester my 8th grade year. To the point where I was miserable and depressed outside of school and dreaded going to school, but I never fought back because I had accepted the "fighting doesn't solve anything" BS that I have been told by teachers and other adults.

When I discovered that I had the same group of people in the same class in the same period for the next semester I realized that I really could not survive another semester, so I caught the first one of the group that I could alone and hit him until he curled up to protect himself.

The principal tried to lecture me on how I was wrong. I asked him what I should have done instead and he stopped talking and excused me.

I assumed that the rest of the group would catch me and beat me up, but none of them ever said another word to me.

Kids need to be taught to stand up for themselves. Violence should not be a person's first on only solution to problems, but there are people out there who are not going to respond to anything short of a fist in their face.

This study is more useful in determining which kids are chosen to be bullied than it is at explaining why *someone* is bullied. It's like lions attacking a herd of antelope - the lions attack because they're lions, but which antelope gets eaten is more dependent on the antelope.

I know, personally, that I failed to get along with other children until I understood social protocols enough to run them essentially on an emulation layer. Laugh here because it's supposed to be funny, be grossed out at this because it's supposed to be gross. Eventually it became second nature, and I can make small talk and fit in with a group comfortably. Normal children develop this social ability earlier and with less process. I can see a great deal of benefit in identifying the aspects of socialization that some children fail at and trying to teach them how to fake it until they can do it naturally.

Just like in rape cases, the fact that rape is caused by the rapist does not make walking alone and drunk through a bad neighborhood at night in a slutty dress a smart idea! Taking rapists off the street helps protect society in general, but calling a cab is more likely to help you specifically.

Bullies can't be bought, bargained, or reasoned with - unless and until you attempt to reason with them, in terms that they can understand. Bullies enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, but they don't enjoy pain and suffering. When they are shown that attempting to inflict said pain on someone will cause THEM to suffer, they often do stop bullying. Or, in some cases, they just move to different targets that don't fight back.

Which brings us back to TFA. Understanding bullies and how to deal with them is a good thing, whether you are socially inept, or not. Conventional wisdom in dealing with bullies generally doesn't work, or teachers could and would routinely change the behaviour of bullies.

Kyle Reese: Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

("You're here and you're smaller than me so you're gonna get beat up")

Believe me, I've been there. The solution? Accept that you are going to get beaten up, then set out to make the experience as painful as possible for the guy beating up on you. Yeah, he hammered you to a pulp - but if you managed to get in one good shot and broke his nose, he will never come back for more. In fact, the fight ended when the pain speared from his nose into his pea sized brain. Never give up, and never stop fighting, a

Well it's a little more credible than the study. According to the scientists in this investigation, the bullies tend to be inbred or borderline retarded students that feel insecure about their low intelligence (which is incidentally correlated with having a small penis), and with such a lack of resolve, they will resort to using irrational violence against those who are smart. The scientists also note that 95% of these bullies go on to become flagrant homosexuals, the majority of them, in denial.

The problem is with schools these days. At least when I was in high school even if you didn't throw a single punch in a fight, you still got 3 days of out of school suspension. This, of course meant nothing for the bullies (most were drooling idiots simply waiting for the day they could drop out) but of course harmed the record of bullied students. Sadly, the days where fights could happen and let things get resolved permanently has ended.

At least when I was in high school even if you didn't throw a single punch in a fight, you still got 3 days of out of school suspension.

Basically the same here, and that was 20 years ago. They'd recite a platitude about it taking two to fight (patently false, unless you consider the resistance of one person's face to another's punch to be "fighting back"). However, their attitude means if you do get into a fight, there's no reason NOT to fight back; you're going to be punished either way. Unfortunately most bullies aren't quite as dumb as they look and will typically pick on smaller kids and/or attack two on one or worse.

This study appears to take the usual premise that the problem lies with the victim of bullying. It also apparently assumes the victim is stupid:

Instead of lecturing with the word "should," offer options the child "could" have taken in the moment, such as: "You could have asked Emma to join you or told her you would give her the swing after your turn.

Uh, yeah, even when I was a kid I could tell when "could" meant "should". And if Emma had simply walked up behind the victim and shoved her off the swing without warning (as bullies are wont to do), this is hardly relevant.

In any human group, there's going to be dominant ones, and there's going to be outcasts. If you're not strong enough to be dominant and don't fit with the followers, you'll be an outcast.

In any human group, there's going to be dominant ones, and there's going to be outcasts. If you're not strong enough to be dominant and don't fit with the followers, you'll be an outcast.

Exactly. And when kids aren't given any opportunity to not be proven an outcast (by fighting back) the only real way of dealing with it is with a good education system that puts kids who are similar together. Which, if it was done that way, I'd imagine there would be a lot less bullying in schools.

I was fortunate enough that my parents decided it's a good idea to do just that and let me enjoy a "better" high school. Guess what? Bullies. Sure, our kind of bullies were the kind that would have gotten the snot beaten out of them by "real" bullies, but the void of the stupid, frustrated hardcore jocks was quickly filled by others who realized they have a physical edge over others.

i guess this study is for the kids not wiling to take a bully down a few pags.

Agree. I got bullied in grade school, but I beat the shit out of them. Most of them avoided me, though a couple still pushed me around. I always got punished whether I was beaten or beating - "zero tolerance" and whatnot.

Then I realized that since the consequences were the same (or even substantially better!) whether or not you were the aggressor, I decided I'd beat the shit out of the last recalcitrant bully first. Then they all avoided me.

Despite fully growing into nerddom in high school, I had zero problems with bullying there. I'm not sure if preemptively mauling your abusers in high school is as effective a tactic once you factor in juvenile court and expulsion. But, their files are still prone to deletion, their tires still prone to slashing, and their cars still prone to towing.

Normally I can't stand this macho bs but in this case you blokes are exactly 100% goddamn right. Stand up to one bully (as hard as it may be) & even if you do get your ass whooped, your problems will pretty much disappear. I think it's because bullies would rather pick an easy target that wont fight back.

Interesting, but very the analysis lacks any cultural context. Is this really the fault (or failing) of the victims, or a consequence of the values and morals of our society and culture? The only way to answer that question is through a comparison to other cultures, past and present. The report seems to accept certain social behaviours as given or natural when perhaps they are only specific to our culture. I think more study is needed.

If you something that other kids have that they don't, you will be bullied, like having two working parents, or hope for the future and the motivation to want to learn and go on to college or university.

There have been plenty of news reports of stories like this, and the victims are not simply those who are underweight/overweight, or with learning difficulties. There have reports of students being attacked (and even committing suicide) because they were successful in their work. Then the bullies would just

I would say it is because they are in an environment where they are being bullied

You don't see that kind of shit in the workplace, at least not the in-your-face kind of thing: adults would never stand for it. It's weird how it is tolerated in a child's environment. "Boys will be boys" and such.

I was naturally a nerd and would've continued down that path happily into a career as a scientist, but I had to become "cool" to fit in. I know that I didn't really "have to" and that it was my choice, but I believe that an environment that was more conducive to the brighter students would have

Years of pent-up anger boiled over. My high school tormentor was sitting across a cafeteria table from me.
I decided right then and there,that I was going to strike back, as brutally and spectacularly as possible.
I used the attached round stool as a launching pad and dove into him, knocking both of us to the ground.
I rose immediately, punching him in the hard part of the side of the head - hard enough to indent my middle knuckle
to the point that it's now level with the rest of the other knuckles.
He was humiliated, I was vindicated (and suffered very mild punishment), and the BULLYING STOPPED FOR GOOD
because the 1200+ other students in that school learned through the usual grapevine that I FOUGHT BACK.

First year in high school I was bullied, struck back, and then was labeled as a hot head. Every other hot head considered me one of them and assumed the only way to solve disagreements with me was with violence. It took a while to shake that.

I went to a Malaysian Public Boarding High School. The environment there was closer to a military boot camp than Hogwarts, complete with barbed wire fences, guards and wardens. The eldest students there, called "seniors" lord over everyone else ("juniors"). You're pretty much at their beck and call and any perceived slights usually results in a beating. You dare not tell the teachers as it would probably get you more beatings from them as you are "tarnishing the school's reputation by making a complaint" and then even more beatings by the seniors when they found out you squawked. You also dare not tell your parents since you will let them down if you leave the boarding school. One of the tasks I had to do as a junior was to wash a whole dorm of senior's uniform, all 18 of them, once a week. There were no washing machines and you have to manually wash, dry and iron them. After a few times of doing this, I decided to strike back. After washing their uniforms, I carefully rubbed them on the communal toilet floor, in such a way as not to stain them. I then dried the uniforms and lightly ironed them. After a few weeks of this, many of the seniors developed very itchy fungal skin infections. To my great satisfaction, they never did found out what I did. From then on, I learned that revenge is truly best served cold. Seeing your tormentors in discomfort and none the wiser is much sweeter than fighting back physically.

I was never really bullied because i fought back early on, plus i'm a beefy guy to begin with so inspite of me being into computers no one bothered me. later in high school i put my skills to use making home brew, and i became very popular (suprise suprise).

I think the number one thing teachers and parents need to do is let kids fight their own damn battles. if jnr gets bullied, let him give the kid a black eye. it also gives the bully a taste of what will happen later in life if you insist on picking on people. all this passive agressive shit where your only allowed to express yourself according to someone elses rules is bullcrap.

I know if my kids were getting picked on at school i wouldn't sit down and tell them to care and share, i send them to boxing lessons and tell them to defend themselfs. people taking shit is the result of this passive nonsense people have been bred on for the last 20 years.

All these years I thought "turn the other cheek" meant you just put up with bullying.Then I read a sentence in this book by some Christian author I can't remember. Anyways, he said"You can't turn the other cheek if it's been turned for you".

There is a key distinction between meekness and weakness I was not understanding. Now that I have discovered that, it is my choice whether I choose to fight back or not. I don't feel "morally obliged" to be passive. I evaluate whether it is important for me to defend myself at that moment, and I act on that. The real problem all along for me was a control issue. Now that I have that control, I realize the power struggle for what a silly thing it is, and it just doesn't bother me. I also am much older now and these things just don't happen anymore.

I plan to do what another/. poster wrote about a year ago. His daughter [2nd, 3rd grade or something] was being abused by the school bully. He contacted the teachers, several times about it, to no avail; after the girl was physically hurting his daughter. He contacted the school principle, who didn't do anything, shrugged it off, not a big deal, etc. So he told his daughter, the next time this happens, grab her hair next to her scalp tightly, and push her head down as hard as you can while you pick your knee up right into her face.

The girl did it, gave the bully a bloody nose, teachers and principle were ALL OVER her and/. poster; threatened him with a lawsuit over his daughter's conduct. So he explained everything to his lawyer and had him write them a nastygram. They and the bully's parents shut up.

I liked this story because1). he tried to deal with it through the most acceptable means [of course they weren't going to do anything about it, but he tried at least and so had legal grounds to stand on]2). The bully never bothered his daughter again. Neither did anyone else in school.

In my school my bully was doing the standard showing how tough/cool he was at lunch by making me get more drinks for the table (think Hogwarts style giant cafeteria) I got it last time so I told him to piss off. So he a little pissed that I didn't submit flipped my plate onto my lap saying 'oops' and laughing it up with his friends/lackeys. So I got up steaming as he continued to make fun of me. Grabbed his fingers and twisted his arm behind his back and slammed his face into the table as hard as I could. I

Perhaps the situation is the reverse of what you propose. Perhaps a culture of sacred violence has modified the basic human psychology of love, empathy and forgiveness. Perhaps both feelings of revenge and forgiveness are inherent

at best you're just cotton-headed naive, at worst your in danger of
ethnocentric and prejudicial thinking

He's asking for evidence to justify your human psychology theory.
If you don't have any real evidence then fess up. It's not enough to
give anecdotes that don't really address the issue. It's even worse
to come up with some bizarre theory on his thought process that
doesn't seem to amount to more than an ad hominem attack.

That didn't stop it for me. One kid made fun of me so much I couldn't take it anymore. So I grabbed his hand, pulled him towards me and executed a perfect clothesline, knocking him to the ground. (I was a fan of wrestling at the time. It may be fake, but those moves - if properly pulled off - can hurt.)

The next group of kids who made fun of me were... well, a group of kids. If I passed one of them in the hall, they wouldn't say anything, however if two or more of them were there, they'd tease me. They

I read some accounts of kids being bullied these days, and their situation was pretty desperate because the bullies were members of gangs. Any violence in self defense (or otherwise) would be responded by a beating by one or more of the other bullies in the gang.

Fighting has little to NOTHING to do with who is tough/bigger/stronger. If you are remotely physically fit even if the guy is twice your size. You can win in a fight. Fights have EVERYTHING to do with who is willing to put it out there. If you can bite back the pain of a punch, even if you are smaller you can inflict damage back. And the one that wins is the one that is willing to continue. Bullies want to show dominance, they want to show how tough they are to others. But they rarely are willing to take an elbow to the throat for it.

There was a point after much bullying when I just snapped. Yet again I was shoved and pushed (or something like that, my memory is remarkably hazy around that moment) and I decided that one of us will die now. Literally that. Die. I was willing to stop it, and either way was acceptable.

I don't know what happened exactly. In the end he lost three teeth, had the better part of his ribs broken and a concussion, while my knuckles were pretty much torn open.

I really hope they don't _over_ address it (WAIT! this is a serious comment!).

I'm really glad to see them taking a "help the kids function in the real world" vice the traditional "turn schools into a happy fantasy world" approach.

At the same time, learning to deal with these kind of challenges on your own is important. Obviously there are lots of cases where things get out of hand, and as the article describes, kids grow up with all sorts of problems as a result.

I think the assumption here is that you are giving the kid a push in the right direction.. rather than hand holding.. which might work. When you start doing the latter.. I think you just serve to isolate the kid more (classic example.. when a teacher essentially forces a group to include someone).

Most kids are so desperate to have friends, they just jump on board

Personally I think this hints at the root of the problem... self esteem.

It's cliche.. but "just be yourself" works. If you're a geek.. be a geek.. you'll fit in somewhere.

People who beat up other people GO TO JAIL. They do not get peer mediation, they dont get 3 day suspensions.Police do not tell victims "Suck it up, be a man, stop living in a fantasy world", they arrest the thug and put him in jailfor an extended period of time. They do not force victims to stay in proximity with their perpetrators.

We do not tolerate it when husbands batter wives and when parents batter children, we dont allow thugs to extort money from peopleon city streets or to beat up people as a means of social dominance. Why do we tolerate physical violence by peers?

It's cliche.. but "just be yourself" works. If you're a geek.. be a geek.. you'll fit in somewhere.

Nope. Sorry, but it does not work. Delude yourself all you want, but if you have kids, please try to review your view. Be yourself and you'll fit in. Ignore the bullies and they get bored eventually. I know those words well. I was told them myself. They have no roots in reality, though. They're the feelgood words parents use to delude themselves and their kids in the vain hope that they can wish the problem aw

Let me translate the article for you so you don't have to waste time on its bullshit: bullied kids are responsible for their own torment and it's really their job to stop it from happening. --> F-you Clark McKown. Right in the ear.

Studies Reveal Why People Get Beaten and Mugged
The factors involve a persons inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from muggers.

A better analogy would be, "Studies Reveal Why People Get Beaten and Mugged: The factors involve walking alone through dark alleys in crime-ridden neighborhoods."
Identifying and addressing factors that increase risk of being mugged doesn't exonerate the mugger, it just makes you less likely to get mugged.
That's all this is. It isn't "blaming the victim" like so many people are shouting. It's simply a matter of identifying factors that increase the risk of becoming a victim and addressing those factors in order to reduce such risks.
I only wish this study had been done 40 years ago. I have Asperger's Syndrome (only recently diagnosed) and was bullied a lot as a kid. If my parents had been armed with the information in this study, maybe I would have been bullied less.

Seriously, though, how you act makes a huge difference to how likely you are to be mugged. It's actually quite useful knowledge: the places to avoid, how to act if you're in a strange place, how to react when potential muggers interact with you to gauge how safe a target you are, what to do if you are being mugged (e.g., never believe what a mugger says when he tries to get you to do something, especially if it involves going someplace where he'll find more private).

It's fine to say "muggers are bad people" -- we know they are. But that doesn't get you far in the area of self-protection. "Make all the people in the world good" is not a viable strategy.

<sarcasm>Who would have guessed? Those poor bullies are really the victims of the kids they beat up, because the kids being beaten up are practically asking the bullies to commit violence against them. I mean, obviously, if anybody doesn't want to conform to social norms or has interests other than those that the popular kids have, they are abnormal and hence need to be cured!</sarcasm>

Bullies don't have initially preferred targets, I bet they try to bully everybody, but they continue with people who don't fight back or don't know how to protect themselves, what are the chances that those people are the shy ones, the ones that don't get social clues, the ones that are a bit slower? Do we need a study for that?

The Santee rage massacre took place less than two years after Columbine, and this time, thanks in part to the pathetic figure of Andy Williams, people started to seriously consider the role bullying might have played. But there was resistance.

In the immediate aftermath, Santana High School officials and local law enforcement officials either denied growing reports that he was a victim of bullying, or else they argued that even if he had been bullied it had nothing to do with the shooting.

Andy's appointed lawyer, Deputy Public Defender Randy Mize (his father could not afford to hire a private attorney), listed eighteen incidents of bullying just in the weeks leading up to the shooting, including "burned with cigarette lighter on his neck every couple of weeks," "sprayed with hair spray and then lit with a lighter," "beat with a towel that caused welts by bullies at the pool," and "slammed against a tree twice because of rumors." These "rumors" of course were rumors of the sexual orientation sort, the most devastating of all bombs you can drop on a newcomer kid who is incapable of defending himself. Jeff Williams, Andy's father, later said, "Some of the stuff basically borders on torture."

As Andy quickly learned, Santana High's culture combined the lethal cruelty of coastal California suburbia with familiar, rural trailer park hazing. He wanted out. He visited his mother in South Carolina a few months before his attack, and hoped to move back with her. When he visited old school friends in rural Maryland on that same trip, he told them that kids at his high school regularly egged his father's apartment or stole his homework and threw it into garbage bins. They called him "faggot" and "bitch" and "gay" and taunted him for not fighting back when he was bullied. Worst of all, much of the abuse came from the neighborhood "friends" he hung out with, got stoned with (he turned stoner to try to earn acceptance), and from whom he tried and failed to learn to become a skate rat.

Some were students at the high school, some weren't. Andy's decision to hang out with students from another school, which suburban kids don't often do, in spite of the fact that these "friends" abused him at least as much as the Santana High "friends," says a lot about the choices he faced. If Andy could have learned to skate, he might have been accepted by a second-tier clique in the coastal California public school hierarchy. As it was, not only did he never live up to the skate rat standards on the ramp, but to punish him for being a dork, his skateboard was stolen on at least two occasions by his friends, who then taunted him for being too much of a fag to protect his board.

In spite of their relentless taunting, Andy joined them at the local skate park, where they got buzzed on liquor and weed, skated on the ramps (he just watched), and tormented Andy Williams.

"His ears stuck out, he was small, skinny, had a high voice, so people always picked on him 'cause he was the little kid," said Scott Bryan, a friend of Williams.

He earned the nickname "Anorexic Andy."

"He was picked on all the time," student Jessica Moore said. "He was picked on because he was one of the scrawniest guys. People called him freak, dork, nerd, stuff like that."

Laura Kennamer, a friend, said, "They'd walk up to him and sock him in the face for no reason. He wouldn't do anything about it."

Anorexic Andy: before puberty...

Even Andy's fifty-nine-year-old, neighbor Jim Crider, observed, "Williams looked like someone working hard to fit in with his peers-and not quite succeeding. His clothes did not match what the other kids were wearing. When he talked, others didn't always pay attention."

Anthony Schneider, who was fifteen when the Santee shootings happened, both confirmed Crider's observation and gave a small glimpse into the dumb, cool poison of this schoolyard culture there: "He didn't have that

Uh, it's pretty clear to me that there is an overtone in this article that it's victim's fault that they are not well liked or have social problems.

While I accept that this may be true in some cases, and a contributing factor in many instances, it's shocking and abhorrent to me that someone might suggest that it's the victim's fault that they get physically assaulted, mentally abused, pressured to do drugs, etc.

The common attribute to bullying is bullies. They are the source of the problem (as often a single link in a chain of abuse) and it would be wise to focus on identifying, exposing, and properly reacting to their abusive behavior against others.

I don't want to attack the entire study based on my perception of this article, and I'll support that having poor social skills can contribute to the likelihood of being a bully victim, but WTF?

I think that you are missing the point of the article. If there is a certain set of traits that bullys prey on, isn't it wise to know what those traits are and then arm kids with those traits with the skills they need to not be a victim?

The common attribute to bullying is bullies. They are the source of the problem (as often a single link in a chain of abuse) and it would be wise to focus on identifying, exposing, and properly reacting to their abusive behavior against others.

I don't want to attack the entire study based on my perception of this article, and I'll support that having poor social skills can contribute to the likelihood of being a bully victim, but WTF?

I dunno, kinda seems like you didn't read the article. It leads with "The number one need of any human is to be liked by other humans", and keeps that chord going throughout. A person who is rejected and has no friends is unhappy, whether he's bullied or not, and the focus in the article is rightly on that issue.

If you focus on that part of the message, you see that there is indeed a problem that originates in the suffering child. You can't divide the world into "bullies" and "non-bullies" any more. It's "those who reject him" and "those who don't reject him", and for the kid suffering with no friends, nearly everyone is in the second group. The normative behavior is to reject as alien those who do not respond to social cues. Will you blame the whole world for behaving normally, or try to teach the suffering kid how to break through the perception barrier and get accepted?

Regarding bullies: of course the bully's behavior is non-normative, and needs correction, but that's really the lesser part of the suffering of the lonely child. The greater part is the inability to make friends.

I've lived a strange life. I was bullied from a very, very young age at school. I was also bullied by my older brother and his friends. After time, at school I became the bully. After about a year I switched schools. Once again, I was bullied. Within a year, I switched homerooms and the bullying stopped (one class was full of completely malicious little shits and the other was full of people I would be friends with for a decade). A few years later, a kid that had bullied me in the past came back to the school. I bullied him continuously. Then, I moved to another state and school. I was bullied there for about two years. I went to another school and by then I had learned a few lessons. The bully in me was still there. But it had changed. Instead of bullying the weak, I enjoyed bullying the bullies. I treated the world as a hostile place. Everyone that wasn't a friend was an enemy. Every affront was an act of war, and my typical response was escalation. You push me into a locker? I pull a knife on you. You punch me? I slip on brass knuckles and return the favor. I got a reputation as a crazy bastard. Eventually I calmed down to where I am now. Rarely bullying others, and rarely resorting to violence. People say that I have an attitude (they can just sense it without me talking), and I believe this is largely why I am no longer "messed with." I carry a weapon everywhere (even to places with metal detectors; i have a specially designed plastic knife meant to bypass them) and I constantly assess threats.

I advise people to treat being bullied like war.

Escalate- Attack.De Escalate- Let them do what they want and hope they stop.Maintain the status quo- Only if you believe something will change on its own

If you're not a tough kid, I'd advise you to talk to some tough kids. At one point I had two kids who would do assaults for hire (they're in prison now). Either way, discreetly pay some rougher kids (arrange a half up front or some sort of protection) to protect you and to attack your enemies. Of course legally you can be accountable- but if you're smart, you can cover your tracks enough to create reasonable doubt ("I only wanted them to protect me") and prevent conviction if it somehow managed to go to trial (never happens). Basically, grow a pair of balls and go to war or hire mercenaries.

I remember in one of my college classes (name drop to let you know how old I am;) ), I heard an older woman (40s) constantly venting about her son's problem with a bully. Even after multiple "incidents," and several visits to court, this kid at her son's HS still was harassing him. He had shown up at their house and attacked her son. The typically inept police (not a slam at cops in general, but in my current state the cops are a joke. some states have higher standards.) did nothing after she attempted to file a police report. Basically, they system hasn't done shit except make it worse for her son. Could have gone much easier if she had gone down other paths such as:

We've been down this road a couple of times with our kids being bullied at school. In nearly all cases, I'd judge that the bully kids were the ones with the social problems. Here are a few case studies from 4th to 6th grade:

Girl bully is only child with a single mom who is dating. Bio father was an abusive jerk as was at least one of mom's boyfriends. Mom is very sensible. We had parents and youth meet and talk it over for what is acceptable and what is not. Invited the girl over for a weekend and had a great time - now the girls are good friends.

Seriously obese 6th grade boy bully is only child with parents of middle eastern origin. Father is a real jerk so there's little hope for the kid. Stay clear of this one - he's trouble.

Only child boy bully with widowed mom gets aggressive when hanging out with my son and another friend. They're ok when its just 2 of them. Jealousy and competition for attention is driving this. Mom is very nice, also lives with aunt and 3 female cats. Invited him camping with the boy scouts for some serious guy time - had great fun.

Upshot is that the kids being bullied need to build self confidence and know which relationships can be fixed, and which ones can't. Bullies are typically insecure, jealous, or lonely and this is how they feel empowered.

We can see this in adults as well. Typically its the momma bear personality,though sometimes not. Discussion on their secret need to be dominated and disciplined is a topic for another forum.

unfortunately, I don't have any solutions with me. But I can tell you some long term consequences based on my experience.

I was brought up in south-asia in a co-ed public school. Public schools are a mix of all the social classes and it is still a habit of 3rd world country men to look down each other on minor nuances.

I was a bully victim throughout my school years (and to a certain extent in my college years.. but more towards 'work-wise bullying'). Definitely I didn't have the physique to fight back. So I had to submit it to survive school years as changing schools is not the solution for everything. As a consequence, I never had a big circle of friends in school. And I try to forget most of my school years and ppl I met there.

Most of my school time, I spent on home work and other stuff (including reading, thinking stuff up) while rest are having merry time in the school yard. But nevertheless, I met handful of good guys (mostly nerds), who ended up being my long term friends/confidantes.

But I really got to know I'm having a serious issue, only after I entered to college. I spent 4 years there without attending a single dorm party, going to college prom or road trips. I just didn't fit into people. I had hard time understanding ppl and only time I understood them was.. when they are ganging up to bully me.

Same thing with romantic stuff. Its a shame, even educated in a co-ed school, I never went on a date in my entire life (and not to mention, no first time yet). Simply because, I don't know how to approach females and talk to them nor have the confidence. Back in school days, when I approached a girl, there are herds of ppl shouting/yelling nasty stuff.... and to avoid that harassment, I opt not to talk with girls.

Moreover, I have issues approaching strangers and talking with them. And I'm worst in terms of bargaining things and manipulating situation for my advantage. No matter how much I try to fit into social groups, I always get kicked out.

Even in my office, I tend to limit my communication to e-mails/IMs. Even thought other staffers having great non-work bonds.. I only have professional relationships.. that's that.

If I didn't get bullied.. I would've interact with more ppl and probably complete 10,000 hours in social relationship training, hence I would've done much better in things I came across after school years. Plainly, I'm having hard time in terms of communicating with people, that pretty much closes most of the life experiences. In long run, all this have costed me quite badly. And yes, I agree with what the article explains.

The article basically says: children with Asperger-like behavior are bullied (so it's their own fault).

In the real world, bullying and social isolation do not necessarily happen together. The article seems to present both as unseparable facts though.
The article fails to address other factors like: What about the bully kid? Why does he/she does that? How some bullies are able to form mobs? Why not all kids behave like bullies when in contact with such child?

"The article fails to address other factors like: What about the bully kid? Why does he/she does that? How some bullies are able to form mobs? Why not all kids behave like bullies when in contact with such child?"

But, that would involve surveying and talking to the bullies, and come on, those guys are scary. Our researchers have been found to much prefer doing studies on the submissive compliant kids, for some reason.

Really? Because never in my childhood was a bully ever punished. Not once. The only time I can recall a bully going to the principals office was after I fought back. Since I won the altercation I was in trouble and he was the victim, nevermind that he started it.

A physical bully is a criminal, there is no social ineptness that justifies being physically battered.

The article deals how to help people deal with social bullying. Socially bullying is not a crime even though it couldbe considered a form of harassment similar to sexual harassment in which case schools could be found civily liableif they do not intervene actively to prevent it.

No the schools have never really taken on socially popular bullies. Schools only now are reacting because they are getting sued.

Knowing the reason for something is not the same as using it as an excuse.Knowing where one has deficits is not the same as not having a reason to find workarounds, or to work on improvement.Having Asperger's does not make one a robot, without willpower, discipline or a drive to improve.

TL;DR: Fuck you. And fuck you if you think that spending my childhood being bullied has made me a victim.