But that’s not how former longtime Trump Organization executive Barbara Res or Trump’s The Art of the Deal co-author Tony Schwartz see it. They told MSNBC’s Ari Melber on Thursday that Trump’s dealmaking skills aren’t what the president brags them to be.

“I never thought he was a great dealmaker, to be honest with you,” said Res, who was the organization’s vice president in charge of construction. “In terms of taking the responsibility for the buck, he just would never do it. It’s not in his DNA. He’s never responsible. It is always someone else’s fault.”

Schwartz, meanwhile, said he recently looked back on Trump’s business deals that he “unfortunately described 30 years ago” and realized that “most of the deals in that book were failures.”

“And the number of deals he’s made over the years since then have overwhelmingly been failures,” Schwartz added. He said Trump was “really one of the worst” dealmakers he’s ever come across.