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Q1. What has changed in attack-speed system from PoE1 to PoE2-beta3?A:- Recovery time of almost all weapons was doubled if not tripled.- Firearms have lost the recovery phase, and now go into reload immediately after firing.- Weapons started to deal damage at the end of attack phase (not in the middle). This was was relevant to Quick Switching.- Majority of "+% attack speed" effects have been converted into "+% action speed". And now they affect not only recovery but all 3 phases: attack, recovery and reload.- Dual-wielding was nerfed from -50% recovery time to -30% recovery time.- The system itself and stacking formula was heavily rewritten. In PoE1 you could achieve zero-recovery. In PoE2 you can't. On the other hand: in PoE1 you could achieve a x2.5-x3 faster rate of attack compared to the base values, while in Deadfire this can go up to x4.- The new system uses double inversion in order to deal with negative numbers from maluses. This results in negative effects having a higher impact than positive ones of the same displayed value.- Deleterious Alacrity of Motion potion was substituted with Potion of Deftness (+25% plus 5% per 1 alchemy point) and Potion of Relentless Striking (+50% plus 1% per 1 alchemy point)- PoE1 Attack Speed mechanics: link- Speed calculator for PoE2-beta3: link

Q2. What has changed in attack-speed system from PoE2-beta3 to PoE2-beta4?A:- All effects that were influencing only recovery phase, now do affect reload phase as well. This includes armor penalties.- Action speed penalties for Arbalest and Crossbow modals were reduced from -50% Action Speed to -25% Action Speed- Recovery time penalties for Battle Axe, Quarterstaff, Rapier, Sabre, Warbow and Warhammer modals were reduced from +100% Recovery Time to +50% Recovery Time- Speed calculator for PoE2-beta4: link

Q3. What has changed in attack-speed system from PoE2-beta4 to PoE2-v1.0?A:- Two-Weapon Style was nerfed from -20% recovery/reload time to -15%- Potion of Deftness base value was nerfed from +25% action speed to +15%- Potion of Deftness scalling with alchemy was nerfed from +0.05 per point to +0.005. Meaning that at 20 alchemy it will provide only +25% action speed- Potion of Delentless Striking base value was nerfed from +50% action speed to +15%

PART 2: Formula. Or how the speed/time values for attack, recovery and reload phases are actually computed:

Spoiler

The new system works in the following manner:- for each phase it gets a list of non-suppressed effects that affect that phase- it iterates through each effect, takes it's coefficient and converts it (via a special rule) into step_coefficient- after that it adds all step_coefficients together and gets step_sum- this step_sum is after that converted (via a specific rule) into the final coefficient and your base attack/recovery/reload time is divided by it.

For firearms, crossbows and arbalests, recovery phase is substituted with reload phase like this:

Reloading is almost the same as recovery. The difference is:- recovery phase is affected by ActionSpeed and RecoveryTime effects.- reload phase is affected by everything that affects recovery; and in addition to that by all effects that specify reloading.- you can start a new action at any time, and reloading will resume when the character has time. While with recovery - you have to recover from previous action first.

PART 5: Types of attacks:

Weapon attacks can be of 3 types:- Normal (auto-attack) - the character alternates hits with main and off hands.- Primary Attack - the character makes a hit with his main-hand.- Full Attack - if you wield a single weapon, it's the same as Primary Attack; but if you dual-wield you hit with both weapons, in the following succession:

The great thing about Full Attacks is that if you dual-wield you can effectively skip the recovery/reload phase of your mainhand completely.And yeap you can chain Full Attacks with something like two pistols, and your mainhand pistol won't require reload.

PART 6: Mini FAQ on various related stuff:Q1. How does the math behind Armored Grace work? I don't get how the -25% armor recovery penalty from the tooltip factors in.A: It is a bit convoluted but works in the following way:- the game doesn't operate that much with [recovery_time] penalties for armors; Instead it stores and uses their speed coefficients.- for heavy armors it is: 0.645 (= 1/1.55)- for medium armors it is: 0.741 (= 1/1.35)- for light armors it is: 0.833 (= 1/1.20)

Q2. Is Sure-Handed Ila working as intended for reloading weapons?A: Sure-Handed Ila chant has two components. One that lowers recovery time. And another that lowers reload time.In beta4 all effects that affected recovery now started to affect reload as well. This resulted in both components of Sure-Handed Ila chant to affect reloading time, basically granting you -20% reload_time x2; or in other words +50% reload_speed. [(1/0.8 - 1) + (1/0.8) - 1) = 0.5

Q3. Feel free to ask.Q4. ...

P.S. If you find any bugs or inaccuracies feel free to PM me or post them in this thread.

Pidesco

Posted 12 May 2018 - 12:15 PM

hippofant

Posted 12 May 2018 - 12:46 PM

hippofant

(2) Evoker

Members

64 posts

MaxQuest, I have a question about +action speed that I'm unsure of that I thought maybe you'd know. If I'm dual-wielding weapons, and one of them has +action speed% on it, does it only apply to that weapon? My initial assumption was that a +action speed% bonus on an item would affect the character, but then when I looked at the attack/recovery times on my 2nd weapon, the +action speed% bonus from my 1st weapon wouldn't be considered and vice-versa. BUT I'm also aware of some display bugs when dual-wielding weapons, wherein some character-wide bonuses are applied to just one and not the other on the character screen, so I'm unsure. (I guess this could be a result of their renaming all weapon recovery bonuses to action speed bonuses without changing how it was applied under the hood.)

If so, this would make +action speed% a lot less valuable when dual-wielding (in addition to the diminishing returns from the talent too) compared to wielding one weapon.

Ciphys

Posted 12 May 2018 - 03:53 PM

The recovery bonus from items like Devil of Caroc's breastplate are additive with the rest or they work like Armored Grace?

Yes, they are additive. You can see all the recovery effects by mouseovering the weapon recovery on your equipment.

Just a question: Where do you acquire her breastplate? In my initial playthrough I sacrificed her in the blood pool(she wanted to die anyway lol) so this item was not available for me I guess... but I consoled it in just to check stats and oh wow that armor is amazing. Definitely want that for future playthroughs ^^

LazyLiam

Posted 12 May 2018 - 05:51 PM

LazyLiam

(0) Nub

Initiates

2 posts

I am a little confused when it comes to dual wielding pistols, how can it be faster to reload them when your other hand is occupied, but when I have a lovely moisturised sweat free open hand just eager to reload, I am penalised with having to wait a little longer ?

MaxQuest

Posted 13 May 2018 - 12:36 AM

MaxQuest

Arch-Mage

Members

2185 posts

MaxQuest, I have a question about +action speed that I'm unsure of that I thought maybe you'd know. If I'm dual-wielding weapons, and one of them has +action speed% on it, does it only apply to that weapon? My initial assumption was that a +action speed% bonus on an item would affect the character, but then when I looked at the attack/recovery times on my 2nd weapon, the +action speed% bonus from my 1st weapon wouldn't be considered and vice-versa. BUT I'm also aware of some display bugs when dual-wielding weapons, wherein some character-wide bonuses are applied to just one and not the other on the character screen, so I'm unsure. (I guess this could be a result of their renaming all weapon recovery bonuses to action speed bonuses without changing how it was applied under the hood.)

If so, this would make +action speed% a lot less valuable when dual-wielding (in addition to the diminishing returns from the talent too) compared to wielding one weapon.

Depending on how it is implemented.If the weapon has "+% action speed" property - then it will apply only to that hand/weapon. (think of Speed property from PoE1)If the weapon has some proccing effect that grants a character buff - then it could be implemented as a character-wide effect that affects everything. (think of Spelltongue from PoE1)

At the same time there is Modwyr that is somewhere in the middle. It places a buff, but speeds-up only it's own hand. At least if we check tooltips; as I wasn't frapsing [modwyr+offhand_weapon] setup.

The recovery bonus from items like Devil of Caroc's breastplate are additive with the rest or they work like Armored Grace?

Confirming what Ciphys has already mentioned: Articulated from DoC's breastplate does stack additively.

MaxQuest

Posted 13 May 2018 - 01:21 AM

MaxQuest

Arch-Mage

Members

2185 posts

Can someone explain to me what the double inversion on negative numbers and maluses means in game terms?

The game adds all coefficients together. Bonuses, maluses, doesn't matter.In PoE1 it worked fine, since there weren't enough big maluses.While in Deadfire a similar approach would lead to negative damage on under-penetrating graze.

A lazy workaround could be to limit the damage at 0, or 20% of original value.A better way would be to divide sum_of_bonuses by sum_of_maluses (all numbers being positive, so the result will be positive as well, plus it ends up with meaningful result).But Deadfire went on the path of double-inversion. Which personally I see as math shenanigans, as they use different sub-formulas for bonuses and maluses, and do not cancel-out nicely if they have same absolute values. Specifically, imagine that you have:+25% action speed from Frenzy, which translates into 1.25 speed coefficient; and-25% action speed from Arbalest's modal, which translates into 0.75 speed coefficient

So if you had 6s reload; with Frenzy and Arbalest's modal you will have 6.52s, even if one effect was giving you +25% action speed, and another -25% action speed.

P.S. We call it double inversion because:- individual malus coefficients are inverted when computing their individual step values- if step_sum is below zero, it is inverted in order to get final coefficient

I am a little confused when it comes to dual wielding pistols, how can it be faster to reload them when your other hand is occupied, but when I have a lovely moisturised sweat free open hand just eager to reload, I am penalised with having to wait a little longer ?

It for sure feels strange.But from another point of view:- single-wielding a pistol inherently grants +12 acc.- what should dual-wielding pistols inherently grant instead? (full-attack profit aside). Also we should take into account that there is a cost attached. If you are a quick-switching black jacket focused on 4 quick full-attacks, you would want 8 unique 1h-firearms, and also would have to enchant all of them.