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The clip reminds me of an essay by another uchideshi, David Lynch, who spoke of Shioda deliberately hurting UKE for the pleasure of the audience and making jokes about it.

Why would you smack a cooperating UKE's head into the mat like that?

Did Mori quip to the audience with disarming insouciance, "He hit his head, you know"?

I sure with some of the "real" attackers' cases had been recorded on video like these choreographed things. Oh! to see Oh!ba going after Osensei. The judoka after Tohei. The uchideshi taking on the longshormen who teased Osensei...

Should give credit to his ukes. Look at other masters such as Tissier etc. They all have outstanding technique but its the skill of their uke that make them look good in demos. Kind of stating the obvious here...

Regarding Shioda deliberately hurting people, it kind of comes with the territory although I think its less common now due to legal issues.

My teacher told when he joined the Yoshinkan aikido club at Takushoku university the instructors would beat the hell out of the new students. He said they tried it with him but after he dished out a few hard mukae doashi (irmi nage) in randori they stopped. They didn't know he already had dan grades in Yoseikan aikido and karate... or maybe they did and just wanted to test him...

The clip reminds me of an essay by another uchideshi, David Lynch, who spoke of Shioda deliberately hurting UKE for the pleasure of the audience and making jokes about it.

Why would you smack a cooperating UKE's head into the mat like that?

Did Mori quip to the audience with disarming insouciance, "He hit his head, you know"?

I sure with some of the "real" attackers' cases had been recorded on video like these choreographed things. Oh! to see Oh!ba going after Osensei. The judoka after Tohei. The uchideshi taking on the longshormen who teased Osensei...

Gawd, you're right. When I watched the video, I wondered why he was jumping up and down and bending at the waist so much. Re-watching, I can see it appears to be for the express purpose of smacking his uke's head into the mat as hard as possible.

Re-watching, I can see it appears to be for the express purpose of smacking his uke's head into the mat as hard as possible.

Watching the video several times I did not once see uke head hit the ground. Sure it is a hard style but uke's ability was up to the task. Notice that uke got up every time and did not appear to be hurt.

Here's a video of Robert Mustard. Notice the crisp precision, without the nastiness at the end. Robert has scary skills, but to the best of my knowledge, has not once had an injury among his students since the opening of his dojo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmndD...elated&search=

FWIW, I consider Takeno the best aikidoka in the world today. He's got a ferocious irimi, brilliant tai-sabki and a tenkan which coupled with a grip, absolutely controls his uke. Like Shioda, he's mastered this kind of whole-body "crack-the-whip" way of exerting power.
Depending on the uke's level of skill, he either:
1. Smacks him down flat, hard and safe, within, but right at the edge of the uke's ability.
2. Moves so fast, with such power, that the uke is helpless. And unlike Shioda or his imitators, with their puckish pleasure in inflicting concussions), Takeno snaps the uke upwards or simply opens out so that, in the former, the uke is brought back from danger and the latter, he/she flies freely into a fall.
Mustard, his personal "project treats his uke's the same way.

Were I young, and passionate about aikido, Takeno, in Japan, would be the person I'd seek out before anyone else. He also is committed to teaching young people, and from all accounts, carries himself with rigorous moral rectitude. R. Mustard is also proof that he can actually teach what he knows.

Watching the video several times I did not once see uke head hit the ground. Sure it is a hard style but uke's ability was up to the task. Notice that uke got up every time and did not appear to be hurt.

David.

That's because it is happening so fast and so violently. Look again at the beginning. You can see uke's head bouncing upward violently after his body has already completely landed. One's head would not come up like that if it wasn't bouncing off the ground.

Getting your head bounced off the mat isn't necessarily going to disable you immediately or keep you from getting up, but it can accumulate. Someone posted a record of all the Aikido training deaths up until some time in the 80s and most of them were from head trauma caused by accelerating uke down into the mat repeatedly.

Personally, I don't see the purpose of accelerating someone down once they are falling unless you are trying to hurt them. You already have control of the situation and they are already falling down. Also, I find that being slammed down kinda pisses me off on a gut level, making it seem more likely to escalate a situation than diffuse it.

If you want to do something to someone on the way down, look into Systema. They have a way of hitting you up to several times on the way down that doesn't necessarily cause harm or rile you up.

Personally, I don't see the purpose of accelerating someone down once they are falling unless you are trying to hurt them.

Maybe instead of going into why it's so wrong...if you don't know the purpose...maybe you should begin by asking individuals who you'd expect to have understanding of it if they'd be kind enough to explain the reason (in private).

I'd say that some people think here. I think it'd be more accurate to say that the great majority try to fit what they see into the box they think within. If something fails to fit that boundary of understanding, they attack it...as demonstrated.

I saw nothing in the video that would suggest Mori Sensei purposely attempted to injure his uke, let alone purposely tried to slam his head into the ground. Comments to the contrary are a sign of complete lack of understanding of what is happening in the video. Yes, at the very end it appears uke came down harder than expected however Mori Sensei was not trying to purposely wipe out his uke. If anything, he pull up to prevent injury.

I guess we in the Yoshinkan see this as normal training while others do not. But to say he was purposely trying to injure his uke is just plane absurd.

I saw nothing in the video that would suggest Mori Sensei purposely attempted to injure his uke, let alone purposely tried to slam his head into the ground. Comments to the contrary are a sign of complete lack of understanding of what is happening in the video. Yes, at the very end it appears uke came down harder than expected however Mori Sensei was not trying to purposely wipe out his uke. If anything, he pull up to prevent injury.

I guess we in the Yoshinkan see this as normal training while others do not. But to say he was purposely trying to injure his uke is just plane absurd.

Now you're getting into the territory of peeing on my head and trying to convince me it's raining. Sorry, but someone who is jumping up in the air and using the combined momentum of their fall and an exaggerated waist bend to accelerate their uke into the mat is not "pulling up".

Also, try rereading my statement or brushing up on your basic logic. Saying that I see no purpose in accelerating uke into the mat like that other than to inflict harm is not the same as saying anyone who does that is trying to inflict harm. It could also be that they are doing it without (what I view as a legitimate) purpose, which I think is more likely.

The fact that you and others, even if there are millions of them, think treating a cooperating uke this way is "normal" makes little difference to me, and does not make it safe or desireable. One of my teachers flatly calls it "unethical" and I agree. There are plenty of striking arts that consider it "normal" to beat their hands forcefully on hard objects until they become barely mobile claws riddled with scar tissue. I don't think that's a good idea either.