How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

I'm not suggesting that the correlation is 1:1, just simply that there is a link between the two. Even if your parents are more important than your own level of intelligence, there would still be a correlation as long as intelligent people are more likely to move up in social class and unintelligent people are more likely to move down, since intelligence is a heritable trait.

While Netherlanders in general are taller than Italians, there are still plenty of tall Italians. And obviously, your nationality doesn't change your height, so after you've met someone and they then tell what nationality they are, you'd have no reason to suddenly think they are taller than you had reason to before. It's just a link. Same thing with social class and intelligence (under the presumption that intelligence is a selector for social class). While it can tell a lot about populations, it can only do so to a lesser extent for individuals.

I think free higher education (you even get £630 a month after tax just for being a student, so that you don't have to have any savings or side job) goes some of the way to explain why the social mobility is higher in Denmark, although I think that too has decreased. Some of which can be explained by higher level of meritocracy and (average) intelligence differences between social classes having increased as result, afaik.

Fair enough

I wonder if there's a correlation between people living in Scandinavian countries with progressive social policies having faith in the concept of social mobility and people living in UK with its regressive social policies being more cynical...? ;-)

Trying to bring this sidebar back on topic, I note that Scandinavian countries punch below their weight in the summer Olympics medals tables, unlike the Brits who do the opposite. Is that because Scandinavian government funding for sport is progressives and focuses on participation by all rather than focusing spending on elite athletes? Or do the Scandinavians just focus more on the winter Olympics?

For comparison, in the UK funding for sports participation for all has been slashed under the UK government's ongoing austerity policies, especially once you add in cuts to local government funding which has led to many swimming pools and sports centres closing. Meanwhile, lottery and central government funding for elite Olympic athletes has increased, one of the few funding streams to escape austerity cuts

The irony here is that lottery tickets are disproportionately bought by working class people who are statistically more likely to be sat on a sofa eating crap food rather than exercising. But at least every 4 years they can cheer Team GB's epic gold medal haul!

An even greater irony is that, while 7% of Brits go to private school, 30% of Brit medalists at the Rio Olympics went to private school. So working class people buying lottery tickets are actively participating in the UK's ongoing reduction in social mobility and increase in inequality

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

I'm not suggesting that the correlation is 1:1, just simply that there is a link between the two. Even if your parents are more important than your own level of intelligence, there would still be a correlation as long as intelligent people are more likely to move up in social class and unintelligent people are more likely to move down, since intelligence is a heritable trait.

While Netherlanders in general are taller than Italians, there are still plenty of tall Italians. And obviously, your nationality doesn't change your height, so after you've met someone and they then tell what nationality they are, you'd have no reason to suddenly think they are taller than you had reason to before. It's just a link. Same thing with social class and intelligence (under the presumption that intelligence is a selector for social class). While it can tell a lot about populations, it can only do so to a lesser extent for individuals.

I think free higher education (you even get £630 a month after tax just for being a student, so that you don't have to have any savings or side job) goes some of the way to explain why the social mobility is higher in Denmark, although I think that too has decreased. Some of which can be explained by higher level of meritocracy and (average) intelligence differences between social classes having increased as result, afaik.

Fair enough

I wonder if there's a correlation between people living in Scandinavian countries with progressive social policies having faith in the concept of social mobility and people living in UK with its regressive social policies being more cynical...? ;-)

Trying to bring this sidebar back on topic, I note that Scandinavian countries punch below their weight in the summer Olympics medals tables, unlike the Brits who do the opposite. Is that because Scandinavian government funding for sport is progressives and focuses on participation by all rather than focusing spending on elite athletes? Or do the Scandinavians just focus more on the winter Olympics?

For comparison, in the UK funding for sports participation for all has been slashed under the UK government's ongoing austerity policies, especially once you add in cuts to local government funding which has led to many swimming pools and sports centres closing. Meanwhile, lottery and central government funding for elite Olympic athletes has increased, one of the few funding streams to escape austerity cuts

The irony here is that lottery tickets are disproportionately bought by working class people who are statistically more likely to be sat on a sofa eating crap food rather than exercising. But at least every 4 years they can cheer Team GB's epic gold medal haul!

An even greater irony is that, while 7% of Brits go to private school, 30% of Brit medalists at the Rio Olympics went to private school. So working class people buying lottery tickets are actively participating in the UK's ongoing reduction in social mobility and increase in inequality

Dunno about Scandinavia - there's about 21million people there in total (about 1/3 of the UK for example) spread across multiple countries so they don't even have the benefit of a centralised system for sports development/coaching/excellence etc. I'm not sure that your suggestion that they punch below their weight in summer olympics stacks up. It should be obivous why they do so well in winter though and perhaps that colours our judgement on how strong they really are.

Benotti69 wrote:UKAD not giving information freely to journalists as requested, but when leaked, then after having their hands forced releasing it.

This is not the work of an ADA that fans can trust and believe.

Well done Dan Roan.

Could someone who's been paying attention explain something to me? I thought UKAD declined an FOI request for the letter claiming no public interest but then British Cycling (in the same week they condemned making Froome's AAF public) ignored them and released the UKAD letter anyway along with their response via their website (so chapeau Julie Harrington - our kind of hypocrite). What then have UKAD released?

Benotti69 wrote:UKAD not giving information freely to journalists as requested, but when leaked, then after having their hands forced releasing it.

This is not the work of an ADA that fans can trust and believe.

Well done Dan Roan.

Could someone who's been paying attention explain something to me? I thought UKAD declined an FOI request for the letter claiming no public interest but then British Cycling (in the same week they condemned making Froome's AAF public) ignored them and released the UKAD letter anyway along with their response via their website (so chapeau Julie Harrington - our kind of hypocrite). What then have UKAD released?

I believe the timeline is someone leaked it to Dan Roan and only when he contacted BC for a quote did BC decide to release it

EDIT: UKAD didn't want the letter released. That "thanks for your co-operation" line

She said: "The team will play a pivotal role in supporting UKAD’s vision to inspire confidence in clean sport. We want to make anti-doping easier to understand for our stakeholders and the public, while of course protecting the integrity of our ongoing cases and investigations.

"We are looking ahead to several major communications projects over the coming months, including the publication of our new organisational strategy, improving our online presence and running the second Clean Sport Week, which takes place in May this year."

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

At this rate Grigory Rodchenkov will be inspecting the ocean floor from a very close distance in the near future. It's all good and well being in a witness protection program outing those dirty ruskies, but when you start outing the people providing the protection.....

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

London 2012 Olympics: drug cheats are set to face most advanced anti-doping procedures in Games history.

Without divulging too many of their testing secrets, the scientists unveiled the new Games testing laboratory in Harlow. The equipment, which was supplied by the pharmaceutical giant GlaxoSmithKline at a cost of £20 million, can reliably check for more than 240 prohibited substances in less than 24 hours.

Witty said: “Professor Cowan is bringing his King’s lab team here and they are completely independent and the International Olympic Committee is completely happy with it all.

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

London 2012 Olympics: drug cheats are set to face most advanced anti-doping procedures in Games history.

Without divulging too many of their testing secrets, the scientists unveiled the new Games testing laboratory in Harlow. The equipment, which was supplied by the pharmaceutical giant GlaxoSmithKline at a cost of £20 million, can reliably check for more than 240 prohibited substances in less than 24 hours.

Witty said: “Professor Cowan is bringing his King’s lab team here and they are completely independent and the International Olympic Committee is completely happy with it all.

Give specific names, have Reedie, McLaren, Pound, Seppelt and all those other holier than thou, self righteous hypocrites criticizing those named dopers, ban them for life from the Olympics, take away their Olympic medals, ban GBR, make them prove, individually, that they are clean, make the Brits compete as 'neutrals' at the next Olympics, deny UKAD the license to do testing, fine UK Athletics....

Give specific names, have Reedie, McLaren, Pound, Seppelt and all those other holier than thou, self righteous hypocrites criticizing those named dopers, ban them for life from the Olympics, take away their Olympic medals, ban GBR, make them prove, individually, that they are clean, make the Brits compete as 'neutrals' at the next Olympics, deny UKAD the license to do testing, fine UK Athletics....

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

To the bold, this wasn't the case for 2012, I'm not sure how you're drawing that conclusion from the quote. You can have the best equipment in the world and still have a poor policy in place, I'm guessing that's more what Rodchenkov meant.

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Notice those subtle hits. It reads something like this... "Oh, it's not actually to the level of Russian doping...." Just to remind us that, once again, 'look over there, the Russians!!!'

And why don't they name names? Countless Russians who had nothing to do with Rodchenkov were named and aren't allowed to compete based on what exactly?

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

To the bold, this wasn't the case for 2012, I'm not sure how you're drawing that conclusion from the quote. You can have the best equipment in the world and still have a poor policy in place, I'm guessing that's more what Rodchenkov meant.

UKAD have been sending samples to Kings College which also operates the Harlow testing center, that’s the irony. 2017 World Championships they used Kings College and so on. Despite the new equipment in Harlow it rarely gets used.

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

To the bold, this wasn't the case for 2012, I'm not sure how you're drawing that conclusion from the quote. You can have the best equipment in the world and still have a poor policy in place, I'm guessing that's more what Rodchenkov meant.

UKAD have been sending samples to Kings College which also operates the Harlow testing center, that’s the irony. 2017 World Championships they used Kings College and so on. Despite the new equipment in Harlow it rarely gets used.

The satellite lab in Harlow was a collaboration between GSK and Kings College set up specifically to run 2012 Olympic samples as the accredited lab at kings didn’t have the capacity. There is no irony, it was used for its intended purpose and was run as a satellite of the Kings lab under David Cowan. Once testing was finished the instruments were mainly sold off to research institutes as far as I know. I’m pretty sure it no longer exists. It was going to be turned into a national phenome centre, but that went to Jeremy Nicholson at Imperial with the next one opening in Birmingham under Mark Viant and Rick Dunn. It didn’t exist last year to receive samples as far as I know.

iejeecee wrote:At this rate Grigory Rodchenkov will be inspecting the ocean floor from a very close distance in the near future. It's all good and well being in a witness protection program outing those dirty ruskies, but when you start outing the people providing the protection.....

interesting point...the alleged doping was british, the protection is american...

if you are correct, it is a conspiracy. then mr seppelt and his ilk need very urgently start digging. where are they ?

btw, unlike some obsessing reading the tea leaves in stead of the prime source, rodchenkov directly and specifically accused the lab of using the outdated equipment

Apparently a lot of the equipment that was in the London laboratory was not the most state-of-the-art equipment. Apparently there were a lot of older testing machines.

this is enough (if not plenty) for wada and the ioc to immediately start the massive retesting program like they've done already on some athletes who lost their london medals.

but none of the sort is urged by the likes of sepplet. why ?

added; as far as i know, the german and swiss wada labs dont suffer the technological edge and their scientists would love to find out those british and other dopers...whether their wada and ioc overseers want THAT, i very much doubt.

DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests