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00:08:52 How evil/stupid/error-prone is (loop (interrupt-thread (random-elt (list-all-threads)) #'thread-yield) (sleep (random 1.0))) as a way to increase non-determinacy during testing of multi-threading stuff?
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00:45:46 hi. im using hunchentoot and i need to change the session name. it says i need to "specialize the function", what does that mean?
00:45:55 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#session-cookie-name
00:46:31 proun: generic functions can be specialized for different classes of arguments.
00:46:43 proun: it's OOP.
00:47:14 yes, but the function takes my acceptor, i dont what to change that?
00:48:09 proun: What book are you using to learn CL? Have they covered CLOS yet?
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00:51:14 proun: have you defined a subclass of ACCEPTOR?
00:53:36 gn all
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01:16:29 what ith lithp all about
01:16:39 kidth teath me all of the time about my lithp
01:16:49 ith thith a thupport group?
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01:21:50 *p_l* puts purgatory on ignore
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01:21:58 My friend! I think this might interest you! Now that the Obama Nigger Tide is rapidly in retreat, the time for us to act is NOW! Tired of Niggers and their monkeyshines? Can't join the KKK because you are not White? This is Billy Mayes here with an amazing new website! Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum Chimpout Forum welcomes anybody who hates niggers and isn't a nigger. Asian? No Problem! Jewish? We have J
01:21:58 ewish mods! Mexican? Bienvenido amigo! No matter what race you are, join us if you hate niggers!
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01:35:40 Reddit: a good way to lose ones last vestiges of faith in humanity.
01:36:28 IRC: a good way to be reminded?
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01:37:13 caoliver: I thought it was 4chan that did it
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01:37:33 or to be exact, /b/
01:37:45 There are some islets of intelligence in #emacs, #scheme, and #lisp.
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01:38:10 caoliver: now, if you don't want to lose all your faith in humanity or *anything*, don't go to 4chan, and definitely don't go to /b/
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01:38:29 otoh, 4chan likes Scheme and Haskell and SICP... :P
01:38:44 Or Sick pee.
01:39:47 well, 4chan's /prog/ was one of the few places where a game *about* learning Lisp could be created...
01:39:55 pity that project never got finished
01:41:00 there's also one game that uses some dialect of Scheme to teach programming, with classroom-like game environment
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01:59:52 I wouldn't mind seeing some robotwars game that used a lisp dialect to control robots
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02:00:10 hmm. ponder.
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02:00:54 maybe something a'la bzflag combat except with only AIs written in CL? :)
02:01:11 I was actually thinking of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_%281989_computer_game%29
02:01:13 except more modern
02:01:20 *dlowe* loved Omega
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02:02:31 So you take that basic game. Instead of a budget, you have weight and energy constraints. Add a scheme dialect, maybe different kinds of vehicles than tanks.
02:03:07 and then you have a classroom type game where students can compete with each other to make tanks
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02:05:01 I am new to lisp and am trying to use asdf with common lisp
02:05:20 I'm only able to call the asd files when I start slime from a certain directory
02:05:44 duck___: you need to push the directory with the asd files into asdf:*central-registry*
02:06:07 or symlink the asd files into a directory that's in there
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02:06:16 duck___: like (push "/home/dlowe/.sbcl/systems" asdf:*central-registry*)
02:06:21 yeah, or that
02:06:30 most likely both
02:06:34 dlowe: ok thanks,... will try that now
02:09:50 dlowe: nice game
02:10:32 yeah, I'm contemplating dropping my current project and actually writing it.
02:13:49 Is there something I need to do to be sure that my lisp environment has updated?
02:13:53 dlowe: I think I played a browser game similar to that. you control a little pathfinding robot and program it's motion
02:13:53 slime accepted the command
02:14:20 Adamant: yeah, I played it too. It was cool, but I'm thinking something that you could actually build on
02:14:36 but I still can't access the asd file
02:14:52 duck___: try ending the pathname of the directory with a /
02:15:02 dlowe: I did that
02:15:07 hmm.
02:15:23 what do you mean "Can't access the asd file"?
02:15:29 The strange thing is that the directory that currently works.. /home/duck/lisp_stuff/
02:15:38 I commented that path out in asdf.lisp
02:15:48 so I have no idea why that is working at all
02:16:02 I'll paste the output and link
02:16:03 you edited asdf.lisp? uh oh.
02:16:15 :S whoops?
02:16:18 uh, asdf.lisp wasn't really meant to be edited for general use
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02:16:49 ok I'll download a fresh one
02:18:36 duck___: I think at this point, it's better for you to give more information about how you're using asdf and what implementation this is with...
02:19:32 sykopomp: Environment is Cygwin with Common Lisp
02:19:41 I want to implement asdf from slime
02:19:52 and also from within *.lisp files
02:19:58 duck___: you mean clisp?
02:20:09 housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp
02:20:56 yes
02:21:26 clisp is one implementation of Common Lisp
02:23:15 written in C, which is why it is called clisp
02:24:29 replacing the asdf.lisp file seems to have solved the problem
02:25:02 I installed clisp because clisp is available through cygwin's click-install
02:25:41 housel: is that true?
02:26:53 housel: haven't heard of t ether :)
02:27:37 what happened to the dots?
02:28:38 that's my understanding, at least
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02:31:48 stassats: i switched back from a virtual machine in which i didn't set my local keymap and used like a us default and i guess i got used to it a bit too much ;)
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02:33:12 . . .
02:33:13 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
02:33:20 ok now added them
02:33:33 oops forgot one more :)
02:33:37 anyway
02:34:03 i don't think clisp stands for lisp written in c, i'll check their homepage
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02:38:08 it doesn't say explicitly (that I can find), but it is written in C and there is no other obvious reason why they would call it that
02:38:24 Common LISP?
02:38:33 So that it would alliterate with "cleats".
02:38:41 Just say "clisp cleats" ten times fast.
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02:39:20 since nearly every newbie think clisp is the common lisp itself at first
02:41:11 there was another clisp, conversational lisp
02:41:23 housel: all i can find is this, http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/CLISP but i don't think that is a source to reference
02:42:29 stassats: ah, another experiment to make lisp infix
02:45:07 is "closure" in the computer science sense equivalent to "lexical closure"?
02:45:33 are there non-lexical closures?
02:45:52 if I knew that, i wouldn't be asking.
02:46:16 now slime starts to load the asd files, but then yields an error
02:46:25 are scheme and CL equivalent in terms of their lexical closure properties?
02:46:54 Yes.
02:47:15 OPEN: File #1=#p"/home/duck/asd_symlinks/package.lisp" does not exist
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02:47:59 are they symlinks?
02:48:37 duck___: are you on windows?
02:48:50 yates: when you use lexically scoped variables...
02:50:00 rahul: what other types of variables are there?
02:50:10 or rather, how else can variables be scoped?
02:50:17 stassats: yes, dynamic closures exist
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02:50:57 duck___: i recommend adding asd search in your init file instead of symlinks
02:51:22 yates: dynamic
02:51:56 drewc: what's the reason to call them closures?
02:52:04 stassats: a dynamic closure is basically a thread that shares the dynamic bindings that were active at the time of creation with the thread that created it
02:52:12 stassats: because they close over bindings
02:52:18 stassats: because they capture the dynamic environment
02:52:25 duck___: you can find on in cliki page of asdf, also in the comments part of here: http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/installing-sbcl-emacs-and-slime-on-windows-xp/
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02:52:53 stassats: Contextl has in implentation of dynamic environments that work with CL
02:52:58 i use them in my web framework.
02:53:08 comment: i am largely ignorant of it, but this language is damned fascinating!
02:53:12 I think interlisp supported dynamic closures
02:53:32 stassats: The full name is "lexical closure".
02:53:33 (you get backtracking for free by rebinding dynamic variables on each request)
02:54:17 ok then, i thought you were talking about cl special variables
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02:54:31 stassats: we are
02:54:47 or at least, I am
02:54:57 stassats: i am... you just need DYNAMIC-WIND
02:55:18 (to get dynamic closures using cl's special variables)
02:55:27 drewc: it's a bit difficult to implement dynamic closure with dynamic-wind, actually
02:55:48 duck___: btw, I recommend grabbing CCL - it might be harder to install/configure, but it works, from what I heard, better with SLIME. And unless you're willing to pay big money, you won't get better environment than Emacs+SLIME
02:55:52 because you need to know when bindings go out of scope as well
02:55:56 rahul: not really... check out the implementation in contextl
02:56:15 and you need to have them work correctly in a multithreaded system
02:56:34 one thread's modification has to be visible in the other thread
02:56:52 rahul: yawn...
02:57:08 rahul: someone else has thought of this, implemented it, and has released it.
02:57:09 i enjoyed his essay very much, but i did resent the repeated implication that old farts can't learn something new: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
02:57:15 i am using it in production.
02:57:21 i hope he's wrong - i'm 52
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02:57:41 yates: paul graham is wrong about a lot of things.
02:57:50 yates: while I appreciate his enthusiasm, I think pg is wrong on just about everything he posts
02:58:19 even the fundamental tenet that lisp is good for real, everyday programming problems?
02:58:30 does he say that?
02:58:46 i think that was the entire point of the essay, was it not?
02:58:59 drewc is also wrong about a lot of things. :)
02:58:59 yates: well, where he's right, he's not original :)
02:59:00 because he doesn't seem to believe it. He wrote an entire book on how lisp is not scheme, and then tried to write a lisp that was scheme...
02:59:10 He has difficulty in distinguishing fact from opinion.
02:59:13 Zhivago: this is true :)
02:59:48 hmm.
03:00:28 so should i continue in my learning endeavor, or give relegate myself to being a crusty old fart who can't learn anything new?
03:00:40 s/or give/or/
03:00:50 yates: I would deny pg the pleasure and continue
03:00:51 pg has opinions that many people find disagreeable.
03:00:58 dlowe: ha
03:01:13 yates: do you want my opinion, Paul Grahams opinion, or rather what do you think? :P
03:01:31 Generally I find that most of the things he says have some merit if you don't try to take them literally.
03:01:50 his social commentary makes me cringe
03:02:20 well, perhaps i should just take the good and leave the questionable, then.
03:02:29 If you read his essays as if it's just some stoned kid talking to himself trying to 'figure shit out, man'... then it's an interesting take.
03:02:31 that's healthy advice anywhere
03:02:41 (incf drewc)
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03:03:28 there's only one Gospel, and i have my own opinions about that too ;)
03:03:56 drewc: yes.. ???
03:04:29 well, let me ask this: are people using cl (or any other lisp, for that matter) these days for real-world problms?
03:04:38 yates: oh, absolutely
03:04:47 as opposed to imaginary-world problems?
03:04:47 and i don't include compilers as "real-world".
03:04:54 some of us getting paid to do so >_>
03:04:58 rahul: yes, or educational benefit
03:05:00 yates: my company uses it all over the place :)
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03:05:05 yates: I am not an academic... i work in boring old businesses
03:05:14 Some folk are doing webby things with it.
03:05:22 yates: http://matrix2.itasoftware.com/ :D
03:05:27 yates: if you get paid for making your compiler, that's real-world
03:05:28 hell, i didn't even go to school :)
03:05:30 I use Lisp to test PHP :P
03:05:38 I find it odd that you consider software to be an imaginary world
03:05:52 It tends to be complex though.
03:06:10 yates: are video games real or imaginary to you?
03:06:49 It depends on if you rotate the screen pi/2 radians.
03:07:01 rahul: do you deny that there are endeavors that have no application directly to the physical universe?
03:07:17 rahul: that's borderline...
03:07:19 nothing is real, everything is product of your imagination
03:07:31 "The Emperor's New Mind"?
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03:07:40 yates:some of my recent projects have included claims management applications, trading systems and airline reservation software.... are those real enough?
03:07:52 drewc: definitely. cool - good to know.
03:07:58 Even those can get surprising. Number theory used to be an academic plaything, but it's now the foundation of most if not all PK crpyto systems.
03:08:18 yates: are electrons phyiscal?
03:08:19 caoliver: yes, i realized this was going to get slippery...
03:08:46 are complex numbers useless for real-world problems?
03:08:57 yates: go ask an EE
03:09:02 i r 1
03:09:05 no, they're actually very useful as lightweight 2d vectors.
03:09:24 specially when the lisp implementation doesn't box double-floats in complexes.
03:09:33 go figure, huh?
03:09:43 and then there's quaterions
03:09:50 eek
03:09:58 yates: there's a fair amount of "simulate the real world" going on in computer-land :P
03:10:09 but they're only imaginary-world if you think airplanes are fake
03:10:26 They aren't? ;-)
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03:10:31 yates: just down the street from me there is a quantum computer in prototype... can you guess which language they use to interact with it?
03:10:34 and complex numbers are very useful in simulating the real world, as you know :P
03:10:43 drewc: cl?
03:11:06 yates: is quantum physics real world enough for ya? :P
03:11:08 fyi, i was playing devil's advocate with complex...
03:11:08 drewc: *Lisp? :D
03:11:24 drewc: How many qubits?
03:11:34 wasn't there a way off topic button somewhere :p
03:11:48 yates: ah.. sorry. another good example is nonEuclidian geometry. it was an academic plaything until it was useful in physics :P
03:11:50 gibranian: how is this offtopic?
03:12:01 caoliver: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Systems
03:12:07 topics are imaginary
03:12:17 I wasn't sure if they were vaporware or real.
03:12:34 caoliver: i've seen it run....
03:12:38 the discussion is if something is real-world or not
03:12:56 is it a quantum computer? that's up for debate... it is, however, and analog computer.
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03:13:23 drewc: are you using weblocks?
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03:13:51 yates: no. I am the maintainer of UCW and lisp on lines, and i'm currently working on a new framework.
03:15:01 drewc: wow. prolific.
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03:15:28 drewc: I'm more interested in the PK implications, as a real breakthrough basically destroys all we have for auth and security infrastruction at present.
03:15:45 s/struction/structure/
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03:16:46 caoliver: the field is fascinating... and the implications are scary yeah. I think we're a while away from actual useful technology myself, regardless of what d-wave says.
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03:18:48 drewc: even though i still have a lot to learn about cl et alius lisp-related technologies, it seems that one of the hardest parts of using lisp for a web server-side application would be how to utilize the various (or create) "html widgets" such as the yui controls. is this true?
03:19:35 i was able to use jquery from lisp
03:19:38 yates: i'm not sure what you mean... if that's the hardest part, then it's pretty damn easy.
03:19:52 minion: parenscript?
03:19:53 parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from an extended subset of Common Lisp to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript
03:20:30 drewc: do you actually use parenscript? Isn't it better to just develop javascript natively in its own environment?
03:20:49 sykopomp: I find parenscript to be better
03:20:56 sykopomp: call me when javascript gets defmacro
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03:21:20 drewc: hell, parenscript had me sold on lambda
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03:21:34 drewc: I'm just wondering. defmacro may not be enough of an advantage if going through parenscript is too much of a hassle, you know?
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03:22:05 in the end, what you debug is going to be javascript, not parenscript.
03:22:12 typing stuff like some_function(function(){10 lines of code},function(x,y){20 lines of code}); was maddening
03:22:32 so with parenscript you can write your client-side javascript in cl and translate it?
03:22:37 sykopomp: well, in the end what you debug is machine code....
03:22:37 sykopomp: however, parenscript generates nice and readable javascript
03:22:47 on the server side?
03:22:55 drewc: you usually get debuggers in between that, though ;)
03:23:06 p_l: I've noticed that. That's quite nice.
03:23:08 yates: parenscript simply generates JavaScript - where do you use it, is your thing
03:23:19 sykopomp: indeed... and there are nice javascript debuggers.
03:23:28 sykopomp: also, (chain ....) macro is nice thing to have :)
03:23:35 sykopomp: it's not like translating to C.. javascript is an acceptable lisp.
03:23:47 p_l: chain? is that the parenscript substitute for dot notation?
03:24:00 drewc: it's a crappy scheme.
03:24:14 I'm not sure I would call that an acceptable lisp.
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03:24:24 not to mention, there's that weird shit going on with bind()
03:24:35 (defjsfun debug (&rest args) (alert args)) sykopomp: no, it started out when previous dot notation went away and people liked to use JQuery :D
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03:26:41 drewc: can you point me to an example (preferable one that is relatively powerful) of a site you've done in lisp?
03:27:33 yates: unfortunately, not really... most of the interesting stuff i've done is proprietary.
03:27:56 np
03:28:08 so you usually have something like (ps:ps (ps:chain ($ ".test") foo (bar "baz" '(a b c) ))) => "$('.test').foo.bar('baz', ['a', 'b', 'c']);"
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03:29:25 yates: however, i can highly recommend the tools and toys at wigflip.com
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03:30:20 yates: Xach made those using SBCL and Hunchentoot
03:30:42 (and a whole bunch of really cool libraries he wrote for the task)
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03:34:20 drewc: signbot is cool!
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03:46:47 what is the purpose of the colon in names, like "(defpackage :retro-games ..."
03:47:02 Specifies the keyword package.
03:48:13 do you mean it specifies a package?
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03:48:49 (defpackage :retro-games (:use :cl :cl-who :hunchentoot :parenscript))
03:48:59 the keyword package of a symbol
03:49:24 yates: Here symbols are being used as names -- so only symbol-name is significant.
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