JCStudios wrote:Hey, everyone. So, I'm curious... I have a 'pre-order' placed with B&H for the Pocket 4K. I placed it about four days ago and I wasn't sure about the turn times on the product and how long (roughly) I may have to wait. I've been talking with my local camera store who's a BMD dealer and they told me that the P4K is "incredibly backordered" and "don't expect to see it for (many) months." That said, I e-mailed B&H about expected delivery and they gave me almost no information. Basically, they 'know nothing' and couldn't help me.

So, with the out of the way, does anyone know any more information about B&H's status or general production information and, ultimately, if I should cancel my order with B&H and try somewhere smaller... or if I should just wait it out...

When I called B&H last week, I asked specifically how many people were on pre-order for the BMPCC4K at B&H. The guy was actually pretty helpful, but he said a little over 1,000.

What I did was go to BlackMagic's website on their resellers page and started calling each one to find who had the least amount of pre-orders. Found one and ordered it. I'm sure I'll be waiting a while, but hopefully not as long as some people at B&H.

You're best bet is to stay away from B&H and Adorama Camera as they both have the most pre-orders so you'll be waiting in line quite a long time. Adorama Camera had around 600 when I spoke with them last week.

WOAH HAHA! 1,000...? THAT'S NUTS. Okay, okay - I'm going to cancel my order. I'll be in the grave before I see a P4K from B&H - guess I should've called them. My best bet may just be the local camera shop that I got my URSA from. I think they said their wait-list is around 10-15. Granted, they haven't gotten very many units, that's a far cry from 1,000. WOW. Thank you all so much for the information. This has been very helpful!

By and large, the smaller stores are filling pre-orders quicker than the big retailers.I don't think you should keep bringing countries into it, and 'the home of Blackmagic'. Your point was answered and explained in another thread.

Chris Whitten wrote:By and large, the smaller stores are filling pre-orders quicker than the big retailers.I don't think you should keep bringing countries into it, and 'the home of Blackmagic'. Your point was answered and explained in another thread.

My point was not answered at all. Do you think when Red release a new camera the US don't get first off the line?

That aside my point was shall shops are not being served quicker at all and adorama sent a camera within a month of an order in January.

Someone with a long and close personal relationship with BM said no, they don't prioritise any country, let alone Australia. The cameras aren't even made in Australia.It's frustrating for everyone.I pre-ordered my Pocket 4K within 24 hours of the first announcement on the 10th April. I got it about a week before Christmas. A few people in November ordered from a smaller store in the USA and had their cameras a few weeks later, before me. It's frustrating.I don't think bringing 'Australia First' or America First' attitudes into the forum helps.

Chris Whitten wrote:Someone with a long and close personal relationship with BM said no, they don't prioritise any country, let alone Australia. The cameras aren't even made in Australia.It's frustrating for everyone.I pre-ordered my Pocket 4K within 24 hours of the first announcement on the 10th April. I got it about a week before Christmas. A few people in November ordered from a smaller store in the USA and had their cameras a few weeks later, before me. It's frustrating.I don't think bringing 'Australia First' or America First' attitudes into the forum helps.

I was told by a dealership last week that's in the same suburb as blackmagic in Melbourne that they actually were assembled in Melbourne but who to believe and what would it matter.

I will only believe what we are told by actual BM employees.

Either way what point is this forum thread. Not going to speed anything up but some communication would help us make decisions for our businesses.

If cameras are produced and sent regularly, why are official resellers in Poland saying that production has been halted. And some of them haven't received even one camera since the beginning of January.There's something wrong with communication Blackmagic. I think it's time to look for an alternative solution.

Jaroslaw Frybes wrote:If cameras are produced and sent regularly, why are official resellers in Poland saying that production has been halted. And some of them haven't received even one camera since the beginning of January.There's something wrong with communication Blackmagic. I think it's time to look for an alternative solution.

Official resellers are often telling customers just rumors to make them shut off asking questions all the time over and over again. They don't like to say "I don't know" and it is easier to tell the customer that there is a production problem/halt.

This is the official word direct out of someones keyboard who should know what is going on - because he is the product manager and father of the PCC4k:

Kristian Lam wrote:Hey guys,

Take it easy.

Production ebbs and flows depending on parts availability and factory closures due to holidays etc. There is NO deliberate production halt. The camera is quite popular and we're building as fast as we can.

Jaroslaw Frybes wrote:If cameras are produced and sent regularly, why are official resellers in Poland saying that production has been halted. And some of them haven't received even one camera since the beginning of January.There's something wrong with communication Blackmagic. I think it's time to look for an alternative solution.

I was told the exact same thing in Bangkok and Australia.

Plus the other reports of the same thing here it's not a rumour.

Repeating myself now but the rate that Dragon image were receiving the camera they expected it mine to arrive early Jan and and then suddenly they said April. They had been told April.

EVERYWHERE has been told April.

And Bangkok said April too.

So if there was no stoppage why does everywhere report April now? What's magical about April

Just spoke to 3D Broadcast and they have received 1 so far this year, the rep seemed to "know" that 12 have been received in the UK total (as in 12 units entered the country) this calendar year (not counting ones stuck in transit over Xmas) and that Holden the UK distributor for BM has told all of the companies selling units to customers not to expect any more until March.

Simple, they are building cameras in Jan/Feb, then shipping them in March. BM seems to do their cameras in “batches” then ship them out, once they get a full container. They apparently do not send them out in ones or even by the dozen. Cheers

Colourberry wrote:So if there was no stoppage why does everywhere report April now? What's magical about April

They're probably just trying to push their customers toward stuff they can sell immediately and are getting tired of people wanting something they can't sell, and aren't getting much information from BMD.

It's likely that BMD is sending its cameras out in batches because it's sending them to distributors by boat; keep in mind that the price tag leads to some pretty thin margins, so BMD is probably streamlining whatever it can... and it's normal for a production run to get sent out as a batch on a single shipment. A *lot* of companies do that... have their manufacturing partners run out a batch, stuff the batch in crates, ship the crates overseas (it's efficient, reliable, and economical).

Sure, FedEx is also efficient and reliable, and a lot faster... but also a lot more expensive.

You want a $5000 camera for $1300 with a free copy of the dominant color grading solution + a free professional VFX, NLE, and DAW solution?

Colourberry wrote:My point was not answered at all. Do you think when Red release a new camera the US don't get first off the line?

Red doesn't ship through distributors. I know that when I was waiting for mine, people all over the world were getting cameras ahead of me because they had ordered before me.

The reason that the very big companies like Sony and Panasonic and Canon get around this is that they put their production runs into the distribution channel early enough to get them onto shelves before the release date. These are much bigger companies. People who want cameras from smaller companies like Red and Black Magic get more for the money, but the down side is that we also have to wait longer.

Yes, Canon and Sony lower end cameras are limited by design, so if you want 4.2.2 10-bit, yiuo”Pay” for it.Nikon on the other hand released their Z6/7 with 4.2.2 10-bit output in either Video (Rec 709) or Log out to record externally. BMD and Oanasonic gives us 10-bit 4.2.2 internal recording wiht BMD adding Raw internal recording to the mix.

rick.lang wrote:And that “more money” spent on Canon often still only gets you 4:2:0 8bit video internal recording like my ancient HV20.

Or with the latest Canon XF705 you get a codec which you can't edit in Premiere Pro and a future update will bring older, compatible codecs but with more restrictions. And the camera was introduced in September 2018, is officially available since January 2019, and still has to be pre-ordered with no date of delivery. And yet people complain about BMD...

While I'm a BMD fan, the delivery of product does come across as rather haphazard.While I complete understand how it happens, for someone to order a Pocket 4K in November and get it a couple of weeks later, while other people who ordered in April are still waiting, makes BMD look bad IMO.They already had the experience of the original Pocket, how very popular that was. Also, they had a grace period of early April to end of September when they were not scheduled to deliver any product, but could see how many Pocket 4K orders they had received over the Spring and Summer.To say they might have been surprised seems either weird, or bad management.I don't want to seem too critical.I'm also not a businessman, but two adjustments might or might not be possible.1) Delay new product announcements until closer to the availability of the product.Many music instrument makers do this. Sometimes the product is immediately available, and the initial excitement of the announcement drives extra sales. Sometimes the product is available in a few weeks.2) Prioritise a main dealer network. This doesn't exclude small bricks and mortar stores, but at least BMD's biggest customers (like B&H, Adorama, CVP etc) know they can supply demand a little ahead of the stores that order five BMPCC4K's. That seems to make financial sense to me, support the main stores that drive bread and butter sales.

Chris Whitten wrote:Also, they had a grace period of early April to end of September when they were not scheduled to deliver any product, but could see how many Pocket 4K orders they had received over the Spring and Summer.

That wasn't a grace period. The camera that was announced at NAB (?) in April 2018 was very much a prototype. The period between April and release date in September was spent finishing the product design. Scaling up of manufacture didn't really begin until the camera was released.

It's important to remember that Blackmagic is a small company and I doubt it has the financial resources to manufacture tens of thousands of cameras in advance of a release date (and so in advance of any cash coming in!). So many companies that fold do so with full orders books - it's cash flow that will kill you.

Sure, I understand both those points.And I don't disagree with them.My personal preference is not to announce prototypes and accepting pre-orders months before the product can be delivered.I work in music and buy from very, very small one and two many modular synth makers. Typically they announce a new module and it is the stores within days. * I know the product is much cheaper to produce, but still, tiny workshop makers still have to deliver thousands globally on product launch.One or two companies announce prototypes that often end up not being available for purchase until many months, sometimes years later. The same frustration is expressed by customers as has been expressed in the BMD forum.So I guess the question is.....Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?

Chris Whitten wrote:Sure, I understand both those points.And I don't disagree with them.My personal preference is not to announce prototypes and accepting pre-orders months before the product can be delivered.I work in music and buy from very, very small one and two many modular synth makers. Typically they announce a new module and it is the stores within days. * I know the product is much cheaper to produce, but still, tiny workshop makers still have to deliver thousands globally on product launch.One or two companies announce prototypes that often end up not being available for purchase until many months, sometimes years later. The same frustration is expressed by customers as has been expressed in the BMD forum.So I guess the question is.....Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?

Chris Whitten wrote:Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?

Grant Petty himself in the presentation had said that BMD got asked so many times when they will announce a 4k successor to the pocket, that they decided to present it earlier than they would have liked to do. And BMD has never taken any money for pre-orders. If you paid for your pre-order, the money went to your dealer, not to BMD. I have pre-ordered the BMCC, the UM46k and the PCC4k. Never did I have to pay for the pre-order with my dealer.

Robert Niessner wrote:If you paid for your pre-order, the money went to your dealer, not to BMD. I have pre-ordered the BMCC, the UM46k and the PCC4k. Never did I have to pay for the pre-order with my dealer.

Swissified wrote:Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?

OK, as much as we would all like everything to happen the way we'd personally like them to happen, here's a brief history, from one person's personal experience with the camera and the process - that some people seem confused about.

First, many people watched the announcement of the P4K as Grant displayed the fully functional prototype in a live stream event with a live audience - right down to shooting said audience by attaching a Samsung T5.

Then some of us ordered the P4K immediately - like in minutes, because we understood what kind of demand this game changing camera would have. And we all knew that day, that we would have to wait until Fall before we got them - and life went on.

Then many of us who did this, got them when we expected.

Then after producing with them we were genuinely rewarded by the experience. They are, in a rare sense, everything and more than many of us expected.

Then we wrote about how great the camera is and, through the magic of the internet, more and more people ordered them.

Then, because of the vagaries of new camera production and supply (that virtually none of us knows because that's beyond our purview) people, who are justifiably excited to get the camera they ordered, have gotten frustrated.

And all the time, by all accounts from buyers and retailers, the orders have kept streaming in. So more and more people are waiting.

To recap:

P4K gets launched with a functioning protype, ready for production.Many, many people preorder it around the world.Many get them, according to BlackMagic's timeline, love them and say so on the internet (where a cheesy video can go viral in a few minutes.)The now proven success of BlackMagic's vision means more and more orders.Regular guys try and explain why that's not the sign of a faulty camera or bad planning - just a really big success and sometimes unexpected demand can overwhelm a supply chain.

And finally, to reward your patience, I say again: The P4K is the best small camera yet produced.

Jim Giberti wrote:First, many people watched the announcement of the P4K as Grant displayed the fully functional prototype in a live stream event with a live audience - right down to shooting said audience by attaching a Samsung T5.

Then some of us ordered the P4K immediately - like in minutes, because we understood what kind of demand this game changing camera would have. And we all knew that day, that we would have to wait until Fall before we got them - and life went on.

Then many of us who did this, got them when we expected.

With respect that's a little massaging of the truth.I am in a much different time zone (UK). I ordered around 12 hours after the official launch announcement.The word was originally 'shipping in September'. I finally got my camera around mid-December.No, I didn't expect to get it a couple of weeks before Christmas, I expected to get it beginning of November maybe.The fact remains, without my having any insider knowledge, many small companies actually announce products either when they are in the stores, or a few weeks away from being in the stores. Not 9 months from being in stores.

Chris Whitten wrote:many small companies actually announce products either when they are in the stores, or a few weeks away from being in the stores. Not 9 months from being in stores.

I definitely agree with you on this. I think it is simply not good practise to be more than a few weeks away from store availability of new 'hot' products. It could taint reputation or hand competitors an advantage, especially if it is the norm with that company.

Australian Image wrote:I ordered mine in Apr when the first pre-orders were announced and received mine in Oct. I was expecting later, but was pleasantly surprised by the actual date. As has been pointed out many times, much has to do with the camera store involved and very likely when they put in their orders ie not waiting for a large order batch before putting in the order.

We seem to be on repeat.Yes, mine was a pre-order within 12 hours of the announcement. I got the camera two weeks before Christmas. I would have loved to have it in October like you. I ordered from CVP. I highly DOUBT they waited until they had a big enough order to place.

Australian Image wrote:I'm not sure what companies you're talking about, but every photographic company displays their new products at major photo/electronics exhibitions and these usually are months away from actual release dates.

I mentioned it a couple of posts ago (still on repeat?).I work in music. We also have very large and important trade shows. We also have very small companies operating at the limits of new technology. Many new products from these very small companies probably have a larger global customer demand than a new camera from BMD.It's only relevant because many of these products are available on the launch date, or a few weeks later. A few companies are notorious for announcing products many months or a year before they are available to buy. Those companies get a lot of criticism for that.It's just another perspective from a similar creative industry, based on similar sized companies selling similar tech products.

To your point, Rakesh, the margin has to be thin or possibly even at a loss (that maybe they didnt anticipate but cant go back on now)? I wonder if we will read about this in a couple years... how they grossly underestimated the desire for this camera and could have sold it for $3K and people would be snapping it up and made a lot more money, and possibly that they maybe went way too low on the cost of this. Like someone else said, I feel like part of the reason for such a low cost with the free Resolve is the plan to get Resolve out in more hands, which I suspect will happen. A lot of people buy this camera and will try it, and many will potentially convert. But some will buy it because of the addition of the $300 software in the price, with plans to use Resolve anyway.

Now they just need to keep Fusion enticing enough with strong updates to its capabilities to be competitive with AE and the other options in the market.

I just confirmed from my retailer there has been a shortage of parts for the camera and that they have not been given a date. They have not received any since January. They said this has something to do with the Chineses New Year (although that was 15 days ago so I don't see how that is relevant anymore). Someone from Blackmagic care to confirm?

Justin Jackson wrote:To your point, Rakesh, the margin has to be thin or possibly even at a loss (that maybe they didnt anticipate but cant go back on now)?

I seriously doubt that BMD is selling anything at a loss except its software. It's been around for quite a while; it knows its costs and margins.

Like someone else said, I feel like part of the reason for such a low cost with the free Resolve is the plan to get Resolve out in more hands, which I suspect will happen. A lot of people buy this camera and will try it, and many will potentially convert.

The free Resolve license is both a benefit and a carrot. The carrot part comes from enticing users to invest in additional Resolve specific hardware, like for Mac users the egpu line, and for everyone various panels and I/O boxes...

Now they just need to keep Fusion enticing enough with strong updates to its capabilities to be competitive with AE and the other options in the market.

BMD's already passed that bar. It's now up to Adobe to update AE to catch up; while the learning curve in Fusion is higher than in AE, as far as capabilities go, it's already competitive with Nuke. Admittedly Nuke still has an edge, but look at the user opinions of it... it's a very good bet that any shop relying on Nuke Studio right now is eyeing Resolve and already debating the transition.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were several Nuke shops out there already trying it out and making requests to the BMD folks.

And it's very obvious that BMD has been listening to pros using Resolve, so...

A little insider info that may help people understand why the P4K release was........questionable.

In all honesty, BMD was caught by surprise. They did not at all expect the camera to blow up as much as it did. They originally forecast much smaller numbers of orders. But when things hit the fan and orders started flowing in like mad, they had to take measures.

BMD discontinued a number of products and retooled production lines to help ramp up production. Supply lines who were initially told that only 'X' number of parts would be ordered were suddenly facing 4-5 times as many. Then the assembly needed to be expanded. All of this happened at very short notice.

I have been told that the goal BMD has set for themselves is to have all outstanding orders fulfilled and a comfortable level of stock on hand by NAB.

Hopefully, that alleviates some stresses that people are having by still waiting for theirs. I know it doesn't do much to get your order delivered. Just know that they are building them as fast as they can and future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.

aglyons wrote: future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.

If that is the lessons taken from this exercise then I wish BMD all the best in their endevours. I feel much happier after reading this message and some others too. Really looking forward to putting the first battery in, the CFast card and using the coming camera.

Agreed. It’s nice to be competitive but it’s sweet to be able to undercut everyone for the features offered. There are several features missing, true, but at that ridiculous price, you concentrate your attention on the marvelous camera you’ve got in your hand... and consider adding another.

aglyons wrote: future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.

If that is the lessons taken from this exercise then I wish BMD all the best in their endevours. I feel much happier after reading this message and some others too. Really looking forward to putting the first battery in, the CFast card and using the coming camera.

Believe me Stephen, the camera is totally worth the wait - you'll feel like a child again when your box arrives.

rick.lang wrote:Agreed. It’s nice to be competitive but it’s sweet to be able to undercut everyone for the features offered. There are several features missing, true, but at that ridiculous price, you concentrate your attention on the marvelous camera you’ve got in your hand... and consider adding another.

I have some Canon batteries at the ready, a dual charger. Cfast cards from Angelbird, an external Rode Video Mic Pro, which also of course works wonders for video on my Olympus.

I had thought of external batteries and a Wise SSD, which looks fantastic. But to begin with I want to see how the Canon batteries last with the filming I intend to do. Hopefully my 4 128 Cfast will be enough otherwise I probably eventally will get a Wise SSD as well.

Practising now on a copy of Resolve for which I have purchased some DELUTS, LUTS. I hope to have the camera before our next trip.

This was addressed today at the Orlando, FL Expo & Resolve Sessions. They are working on manufacturing them as fast as they can. It's a very high demand item.

And, after today I'm very much considering one as it still would make a great addition to my camera pack. Yet, I wouldn't have an issue waiting based on the fact that I understand the high demand. It's now the perfect entry level BMD camera. Thus a lot of first time purchasers are buying it. Thus the high amount of pre-orders to fill.

At this point I would say patience. The camera will come. Blackmagic is getting them manufactured each day.

"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)