NBA All-Time Team Voting by Position (Part III)

Hello fellow lockout loathers! We are back again for the third installment of the NBA All-Time Team Voting by Position! A big thank you to all who have participated in the first series and the latest from this series, that included:

Chicago1980, MJBrown, j_smoove1, Hi its Ben, Scottoant93, Deezy, iguapops420, Champzilla21, RICO 1981, moochiee, DurantsWingspan, Mr. Chicago, I May Be BASED, parkerj, joecheck88 and the artist formerly known as McDunkin and currently known as McBased.

With 13 from the first series (including myself) and 16 from this series, we are now up to 29 voters! Really happy about this number, major thank you again to participants, but I think we can do even better. So, for those who have yet to vote, please do so. I think this will probably be the last chance of this series and I was hoping to possibly get up to 50. You may say I am a dreamer, but I am not (If you have seen Dinner for Schmucks, than you probably get this). So, if you have not yet voted or are not a troll like Jlv2011, than feel free to vote for your opinion of the Top 5 Best players in NBA history at PG, SG, SF, PF and C. Here are the two previous posts in this series if you would like 29 votes worth of context:

Now, the part I am sure some of you who have not already done the math have been waiting for (so, all of you who have voted, I am guessing, lol)! There have been some changes in ranking from last time and only 1 unanimous pick for the best player ever at his position. Here are the new scores:

Others receiving votes: Dirk Nowitzki (13 points), Kevin McHale (8 points), Moses Malone (6 points, definitely feel he was more of a C than a PF, because otherwise he would clearly be in the top 5), Elvin Hayes (3), Bill Russell (3, every other vote has been at C)

C

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (115 points, 12 first place votes)

2. Wilt Chamberlain (99 points, 6 first place votes)

3. Shaquille O'Neal (90 points, 5 first place votes)

4. Bill Russell (76 points, 4 first place votes)

5. Hakeem Olajuwon (54 points, 2 first place votes)

Others receiving votes: David Robinson (1 point)

That is 10 different PG's and PF's, 11 different SF's, 12 different SG's and 6 different C's amongst the accumulated top 5's. This vote has turned out great, I definitely think once we have finished this series, we will get some new poster response polls. The 6-10 sounds like a good idea, and I am even thinking of going for the greatest player of All-Time. While I know MJ would more than likely win, I do not think it would be unanimous. Also, it would be very interesting to see an accumulated score of who voters think are the Top 5 players in league history, regardless of position.

For now, much thanks to the people who have voted. Feel free to discuss the current scores and get into who you feel ranks too high or too low and why you feel that way. Really hope that a few more posters will participate, I am not going to name names, but I know there a lot of board regulars who have yet to voice their opinions. I think we have 28 brave people who can tell you that the result was not at all that bad, lol.

Rules and Template

The rules are simple, you rank the 5 All-Time best players at each position in NBA History. The scoring for the poll will be general NBA MVP scoring. A first place vote is worth 5 points, a second place vote is worth 4 points, a third place vote 3, a fourth place vote 2 and a fifth place vote 1. You each have one vote, so make your decisions carefully. I am hoping to get as many participants as possible, and I am hoping they will cast their votes seriously. In the end, we will have consensus rankings of the greatest of All-Time amongst the site, which could lead to more votes.

But, theEDGE, what is exactly is the explanation of ranking Dikembe Mutombo ahead of Shaquille O'Neal or Hakeem Olajuwon. Willis Reed at least won a couple of rings and a MVP award, but I have no explanation for why someone would think Mutombo is above the level of those players. He won 4 defensive player of the year awards, which is definitely a big accomplishment. He also nearly averaged a double double for his career (9.8 and 10.3), but Hakeem and Shaq both did that as well. I feel his college team mate, Alonzo Mourning, would have been a much better choice, not to mention Moses Malone, George Mikan, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Robert Parish, Bill Walton and Artis Gilmore, in no particular order. Even still, I think you could even make an argument for Dwight Howard and possibly Yao Ming giving Mutombo a run for his money. Dikembe was a great defender and a great person, but Center is stacked and I do not think he had nearly the impact that at the very least Shaq and Hakeem had. Explanation would be most appreciated.

Flynt's picks were not bad. If he stopped posting really short topics with broad statements that he usually posted on another thread first (I am thinking the Flip Murray thing), than you could be a decent poster, Flynt. The Kobe post you made I felt was not that bad at least as a topic of discussion.

The one thing that I did not like at all on davidstern's list was Mark Jackson at 5. I have to say, if Mark Jackson were not an announcer, I do not think any of us would even be talking about him. If he went straight to coaching, I have a feeling he never ends up on any list involving the Top 5 players at the PG position. But, since he did, here are a list of players I would probably put in front of Mark Jackson at 5 on that list: ISIAH THOMAS (I do not think there is a good explanation for Mark Jackson being better than Isiah. If there is, would love to hear it. By the way, if people are reading this, the 60th pick in the 2011 draft spells his name "Isaiah". So, if you spell it "Isiah", than that refers to the former Pistons great who was a catalyst to two NBA championship teams), Bob Cousy, Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Tony Parker, Tiny Archibald, Allen Iverson (I would accept him as a top 5 PG well before Mark Jackson), Lenny Wilkens, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Maurice Cheeks, Mark Price, Sam Cassell, Baron Davis, Calvin Murphy and Terry Porter. I am probably leaving people out, but that would be a start. Mark's career was well and good, but he was a one time All-Star who finished with averages of 9.6 and 8. Awesome pass first PG, but I think all of those players I listed proved a lot more during their career than "hand down, man down". It is not only that he was maybe the most annoying commentator of All-Time, or that he made the HOF Finalists over Reggie Miller, but I think all of these players had a bigger place in the league than Mark.

So, that ends my tirade with that one. I would love to hear the explanation for both choices, and as of right now I am at the very least going to count davidstern's vote, but I think that Mutombo and Jackson, even at 5, are headscratchers for a lot of us. But, thanks for the input guys, and I hope that we have not seen the last of the voters!

5. Bill Walton - Would normally put Shaq or Moses here but Bill Walton has to have a single vote mainly because of his transcendent championship season he had with the Blazers before his career got wrecked.

Believe me, I give Bill Walton all of the props in the world for his couple of seasons as the best player in the league. Nonetheless, I am going to hopefully be doing a second series of players 6-10 that I feel Walton more than likely would be more suited to. As much as Bill was an awesome player, I think Shaq and Moses were both considerably more awesome, if anything due to their sustained success past 468 games. Walton being hurt was a crying shame, as many tend to look at his short career and think that he may be overvalued by those who see him as one of the best to ever play the game. Still, in his short, injury riddled career, he was a major winner and a player who could control a game without scoring a single point. He could really do it all, fantastic rebounder and passer, and while he did not have to score to take over a game, he definitely could put the ball in the basket. For those who have never seen any of his old flashback games with Portland, if you get the chance to, it is worth the watch, because he really was great.

You have constantly underestimated Bill Walton as a player, not surprised you commented on it, lol. I did not neg him because he at least provided the explanation of why he wanted to vote for Bill Walton. I disagree that Bill should be in front of Shaq, Moses and probably a few others, but, all in all, he is and was a incredibly highly regarded player. Plus, I think he was an infinitely better choice than Dikembe Mutombo or Mark Jackson, who got no comment from you whatsoever, lol.

He also lead his team to a championship and was the MVP the following season after leading his team to a 50-8 record before being hurt. The guy was amazing. I am not saying he is better than Shaq or Moses, but he was an amazing player. Plus, honestly, there are not that many players who have averaged 13 and 10 for their career. Plus the 3.4 assists and couple blocks. I am well aware with what he did, and that he only played a select number of games. Still, I understand people wanting to give him credit. Plus, while you mention that, tell me, did Mark Jackson and Dikembe Mutombo averaging 10 ppg for their careers? Answer me this, officer Condrin :)

TC, you should really go back and watch some videos of Walton pre-injury. Dude was unique. He was able to shoot,pass, handle and play D. there is a reason he's a finals and regular season MVP. The guy was on his way to becoming KAJ had he never gotten injured. Even with the injury bug taking most his career, he still managed to bring something to the table even after his skills and athleticism diminished by adapting his game to a 6th man role where he waon 6MOY and another title with Boston. You are severely underrating Walton. Mikeyv put it best, Walton has a far better chance of being top 5 at his position than Mark Jackson and Dikembe Mutombo.

Jackson is 3rd in assists but a long career and yes he was a good pass first pg but that's about it. He had a couple decent scoring seasons but nothing I would call top 5. Though I did have trouble not putting KJ on there. As for Dikembe, he played D really well, but outside of that he was much else. Hakeem played equal or better D and was a FAR more dominant offensive force. Walton in the top 5 should be last cause of concern when players like that Jackson and Dikembe are on the lists.

In addition to what iguapops420 said, it's often thought that Mutombo was a better shot blocker than Hakeem, but it was the other way around. Hakeem's 3.1 on his career and Mutombo is 2.8 and each had two 4+ block season's but Hakeem's were 4.6 and 4.2 and Mutombo's were 4.5 and 4.1....easily the two best shot blockers of the past 25 years, but Hakeem was in fact better, he just strictly wasn't known for D so I think his prowess is often overlooked.

Hakeem was indeed the better shot blocker from a per game stand point, and has 2nd place Mutombo beat by 541 on the career total. Dikembe was a better per minute shot blocker, though, but the bottom line is, Hakeem finished with more minutes per game for a reason. Throw in Hakeem's speed and penchant for theft and I do not think their is much debate of who the better defender was. Dikembe may have indeed been the better overall shot blocker for the minutes he was on the court, but not by a huge margin. Dikembe averaged a block for every 11.1 minutes of play, whereas Hakeem had one for every 11.5. All in all, with Hakeem's ability to play for longer periods of time due to his incredible conditioning and value, Hakeem would seem to go down as indeed, the better shot blocker, even with Mutombo getting them slightly more frequently. Want to know a really freaky statistic? Manute Bol averaged a blocked shot evey 5.6 minutes of floor time. No one even comes close to that number, though at the same time, since he weighed about 210 pounds at 7'7, he was not impossible to push around in the post.

Did not realize you put Kevin Willis at 5 there, too. Well, thanks for the explanation. Even though it was, for lack of a better word, nonsense.

Magic Johnson was a 6'8 (though I am pretty sure 6'9) PG. Seen any more of those in the NBA? Lately? Seeing that LeBron James is not one, than, no. He was a PG because he had uncanny court vision, could handle the rock and was an incredible leader. He was not overly fast or athletic, but he was the definition of a floor general. While John Stockton may have the All-Time assists total record, the assists per game record belong to? Magic Johnson! 11.2 per game. But, I guess he does have a lot of unrealized potential, what with winning 5 NBA championships, 3 MVP awards, 3 Finals MVP awards (including one his rookie year, where he started at Center for the injured Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and finished with 42 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists to win a pivotal Game 6 on the road), making 9 All-NBA first teams, 12 All-Star games and being in almost every list of Top 10 NBA players in history.

Tim Duncan didn't play Center out of circumstance, not because he did not want to do it. He usually ended up guarding the other teams best player regardless of position at 4/5. I think it is a wonderful point you make about Dikembe's innovative finger wagging making him a better player than Hakeem and Shaq. Those two guys are so easy to forget about, every having them on their list of the Top 5 Centers of All-Time and all. Also, ever think that Jerry West might have been one of the reasons his teams were great? He averaged 27 points per game over his career. Might as well throw in that he also averaged 6.7 apg, 5.8 rpg and 2.6 spg as well, 10 All-NBA First Teams, one Finals MVP (the first ever, in which he lost to the Celtics), made 5 NBA All-Defensive teams (2nd team in the first year the team was incepted, 1st team the 4 years afterwards), was an All-Star in all 14 seasons he was in the league, averaged 29 ppg in the play-offs over his career and was immortalized as the NBA logo. I never thought about it, but I guess his team was really good, must be the reason why all of that other stuff happened.

In conclusion, it is your list, and you will do what you will with it. Nonetheless, never hurts to brush up on ones basketball history and read into it. Seems like it might at least give you a perspective of how great these players were in their own time. The game has evolved, players may indeed be better now than they were back than. But, it seems like you are just flat out missing out on some key elements with these players. Plus, you put Kevin Willis and Dikembe Mutombo in your top 5 players of All-Time in front of Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon.

I urge people to vote for who you actually have in your top 5 of All-Time rather than trying to give someone recognition or votes. I mean, if you read what I wrote, I am going to do a 6-10 anyway, so why in the hell are you doing another list with Arvydas Sabonis at 5? Guys, we know there are a lot of great players at every position, but I think by ranking players just for recognition, you are missing the point of this poll, big time. I would have even accepted you writing a whole post about Arydas possibly being a top 5 Center in NBA history had he come over in 1986, even though that has been written on this website countless times. If you were really different, you would give a valid reason for Arvydas Sabonis being a better NBA player than Hakeem Olajuwon. Now, that would be different.

Reggie Miller was a great competitor..People have him rated high becuz he made memorable shots..

But no way should he be among the top 5 shooting guards of All Time..In my book he didnt make the Top 10 All Time at that position....There's a reason why he didnt make the Hall on his 1st try..He was a poor defender,couldnt create for teammates and a poor rebounder for someone that was 6'7....

Alex English was a great scorer, but he only made an all NBA team 3 times in his career ( all 3 times being 2nd team) which to me doesn't read as someone worthy of a top 5 position player of all time. I appreciate trying to add diversity to the list, but this is just a swing and a miss IMO.

I feel Bernard King and he were very similar players when looking at their whole careers, although King struggled with some injuries, he was still a better scorer with more career accolades. So even an arguement outside of the box looking at players not previously named I would still nix English and say King was better. But in all reality these are top 10-12 guys...not top 5....I would honestly put Paul Pierce ahead of both of them.

I still cant understand why Alex English is in the Hall..He was a big time scorer,but he did it Quietly...And he wasnt a leader..My guess as to why English is in the Hall, is becuz he put points on the board on a consistant basis year after year and won scoring titles...So if he's in the Hall for just scoring points..Guys like Bernard King & Mark Aguirre should also be there..I think King & Aguirre were better players than English...

I agree completely, RUDEBOY, and English only won one scoring title, Bernard King won a scoring title as well and in my opinion was a better scorer. Injuries kind of hurt his career ( much like T-Mac) but yeah King was on more all NBA teams than English, he just had a shorter career.

Aguirre left Dallas in his prime and took a backseat in Detroit and won two titles, and I don't feel he'll get in the HOF. He could have put up 20+ ppg for at least 3 more season had he not been in Detroit.

And none of those players should be above Pippen on this list, IMO, who was a 10 X All-Defensive 7 X All-NBA is 6th on the All-Time steals list with 6 rings.

Pierce reminds my in a way of Alex English..Both scored points in a quiet way..But Pierce is much more out spoken off the court..

Both guys have similar rebounding and assists numbers for their careers around 6 & 3....Pierce might be in the 9-15 range of small forwards of all time..

1 guy no 1 ever talks about ..But i think he was a great player,that is Marques Johnson...Some say he was 1 of the game 1st point forwards....Had a decent post game,good passer and rebounder,could make plays and had a nice touch from the field..

I didnt read anybody elses post after yours but AI I think was definately a 2. When you consider Eric Snow started with him in his best season. I highly doubt E Snow was the SG on the team. I am not hating man, he was a great player that had the ball in his hands as much as a point but he was a 2.

You didn't sound any more ignorant than usual (joking). AI did start off considered as a PG, but after a year or two, it became much better to use him off of the ball. Now, as far as you guys talking about Alex English, he may only have been All-NBA Team 3 times, but he scored over 25,000 points for his career. He was also a fantastic offensive rebounder for his position, 2.3 orpg for his career, good for 30th All-Time. He also lead a decade in scoring, the 1980's, so that is not bad.

English was an 8 time All-Star, 50.7% FG, 83.2% FT, 21.5 ppg, was in the top 10 scorers 9 times why should this guy not be in the HOF? As much as I think Bernard King may have indeed been better, he scored around 6000 fewer points and played 40 fewer play-off games. Keep in mind, as well, that this was a time when Larry Bird and Dr. J were playing, so it was tough to make All-NBA teams. Plus, their were only 2 All-NBA teams up until 1987-88. I agree that he is not top 5, but I think he deserves to be a Hall of Famer and is incredibly close to Adrian Dantley as far as career achievement (Dantley made 2 All-NBA 2nd teams, so English has one up on him). Also, I think that Paul Pierce is better than both of them and he is in my Top 10 SF's, definite Hall of Famer.