Interview with Dr. Deanna Gordon

Q: The first one will be will you discuss your college education
and preparation for entering the field of teaching?

A: Well,
I went two years to Madison College, it was then. Started there as a business
major rather than a teaching major. I changed majors a number of times. And
my sophomore year decided that I wanted to teach. Then transferred back to Roanoke
College my junior year, which at that time particularly was not heavy into education
at all. So I graduated with the minimum number of courses in education. Student
teaching was really helpful but with a secondary major in high school history.

Q: How about your education and preparation for an administrator?

A: That was a lot more systematic I guess, although I guess I always took
the route that went the furthest around the education courses rather than wading
right in and taking them when I began my career as an administrator as a part
time administrator. I began with them knowing that I didnt have the credentials
but at that time I was the first assistant principal in Roanoke County, assistant
elementary principal. The system gave me two years to complete it so I went
to Hollins and Master of Arts and Liberal Studies and again took the minimum
number education courses and the maximum number of content courses. Then the
doctoral program at Tech, and you know, of course, was quite comprehensive then,
and it prepared me well I think for my roles as assistant superintendent and
superintendent.

Q: I wonder if you could discuss those experiences or
events in your life that constituted important decision points in your career
and how you feel about them now?

A: Well, you know in retrospect looking
back over about 40 years there were a lot of things that look almost like serendipity.
I probably would not have decided to go into teaching that sophomore year at
Madison except for one particular teacher that inspired me. If the luck of the
draw had been different, you know, and I had had another history teacher I might
not have decided to go into teaching. The story about how I first got to be
an Assistant Principal is really wonderful I think. I was in an elementary school,
k 7 were all in the elementary school, at Herman L. Horn. And so when
we learned oh, we had about 700 and some students and so when
we learned Mr. Stone was going to get an assistant, you know were talking
here 1969-70 something like that, there was one man on the staff, and so of
course everybody assumed that he would be the assistant principal, and he very
much wanted to be. And, no more than 2 weeks before he would have been appointed
as assistant principal he was involved in or at least accused of, I dont
really know how it turned out, he was accused of shoplifting at a local store.
And that hit the paper full blare. So, Mr. Burton, being the conservative sort
that he was, didnt want any part of that. So, I was the other seventh
grade teacher and it was assumed that seventh grade teachers knew more than
anybody else because they were the highest grade level and they came to me and
asked me if I would like to be the assistant principal and I said sure. So,
again when I went to Central Office, at that time Va. Tech was just beginning
its doctoral program there were, oh, I believe at least a half of dozen people
at central office who were taking doctorate classes and so there was lots of
conversation about that. But, again, very few of them were women. But, there
was one other person and that was Dr. Norma Peters, I dont know if you
know her or not, and she was finishing up her doctoral program. She had been
brave enough to wade in there and she said, "Deanna, just go in there and
do it." So, of course, that was certainly a turning point. Because I would
not have qualified for several of the jobs I eventually had if I hadnt
completed the doctoral program. And certainly would not have created the network,
the Va. Tech network. The network really sustained me throughout my career and
it is still an important part of me.

Q: I would imagine. I was going to ask you what motivated you to enter
administration but I think that kinda explains itself.

A: Once I got into it I found I really did like management. When I first thought
about going into an assistant principal you taught _ a day and then you were
a principal the other _ day. And so I thought, "OK, I can do that and they
will still let me teach and I love teaching and I dont want to give up
teaching." But after I got into school administration I found I thoroughly
enjoyed that so I was perfectly content to keep going.

Q:
Would you describe your personal philosophy of education?

A: Oh, I
just, I guess, I think that there is education and learning and Im not
sure theyre the same. But I always think and hope that whatever jobs I
have had have motivated people to want to support learning. Certainly in the
classroom learning more that education and certainly as I have gone up through
the ranks. Trying to support teachers it seems to me is the most important thing
any other administrator can do. I guess I think that teaching and learning one
isnt important without the other. Teaching can be wonderful but until
it results in learning it hasnt accomplished its purpose. And that always
depends on almost a chemical or spiritual interaction between the teacher and
the student. And so, I think you have to allow teachers a lot of freedom to
find their own way of doing that. Not to say laissez-faire and I certainly dont
believe that everything that goes on in the classroom constitutes good teaching
and would hope I would be quick to call somebodys hand if I found things
that were not supporting learning. But, I think that teachers need the maximum
freedom we can allow them and all other administrators. Pick the best people
and let them do their job.

Q: Can you kinda expand on the techniques
you used to create a successful climate for learning?

A: Inspiring
people to have confidence in themselves. I guess one of the nicest compliments
I have had are the number of people whove come back and said, "Because
of you I went on and took further courses or went on and learned more on my
own." So, sort of helping other people feel that same thing. That Ive
got an individual style and Ive got something I need to do and I need
to get out and learn how to do that. So, certainly teaching them what I know
would be one part of it but its probably not going to apply directly within
their own philosophy of teaching and learning. Causing people to have confidence
in themselves.

Q: A great deal of attention has been given to the topic
of personal leadership. Would you discuss your approach to leadership and describe
some techniques which worked for you and maybe an incident in which your approach
failed.

A: I guess Ive always also believed in being just as
straightforward as possible. To put it coolly, when you get the principalship,
and certainly then into the supervision, and the directors job a lot of times
the administrators implementing policies not that necessarily go against the
grain but that require a lot of rubbing off the rough edges. If there are tactful
ways to say that. You have, of course, the local policies and particularly over
my career we developed more and more and you all are certainly seeing a great
deal of that in terms of state policies, federal policies, federal regulations
as they shape all the hearing processes that you go through in special education
cases and who knows whatever else. And so, trying to help people cope with that
and still save their own motivation and then their enthusiasm for teaching.
So, Ive tried to be as straight forward with them as possible and saying
this we have to do this because its rule and regulation and now lets get this
done and get this done well and get it out of the way. Then you can go teach
and do the things you enjoy doing. So, I guess being really straightforward
with people and trusting them to use information. I think it fails when you
run into a very few people, most respond very positively to that, a few folks
want, well I guess for want of a better word, dont want to hear the truth
or arent prone to take that. Oh, I guess I cant think of specific
instances but there are people who arent really comfortable with you calling
them in and saying, you know, this may not be the way either of us want it to
be but its the way it is and so what are we going to do about it.

Q:
A little bit different topic. There are those that argue that standardized testing
can provide a way to improve instruction. Would you discuss your experience
with such testing and provide us your views on its effect on the quality of
the instructional program?

A: People would probably be surprised, maybe,
I dont know, but I wholeheartedly support standardized testing. And have
been a supporter of the Standards of Learning testing program since we first
began to develop some sort of vague standards almost 20 years ago now. I think
the public puts billions of dollars every year into public education and they
have a right to know whether the rumors they hear about, there was an article
in the paper just this week about how many students cant read well enough
to succeed in college and cant write well and cant do mathematics.
They have a right to know the extent to which that is true. A personal belief.
I do think that in Virginia we were headed into a good process but that we got
into a bit of a hurry and got too soon to hang the results out there without
adequately preparing the student for these particular tests. These tests are
so specific when it gets to social studies, and to science and to mathematics.
That you know its sort of like throwing a dart into a stack of hay and hoping
you hit one particular thing you hope is in there. I do think we moved too quickly
and thats what Ill say on the program tonight. Its not a bad
program, we just got into a bit of a hurry with it. I think if educators can
agree on whats the core that needs to come out of a high school career.
I think a high school diploma should stand for something more than just 13 years
spent in school. And, if we can ever agree what those things are then its helping
make sure everyone contributes their part to getting the students there.

Q:
Would you discuss some of the pressures you faced on a daily basis and how you
coped with them.

A: Its funny at the time I really didnt
interpret them that much as pressures. The primary pressure was being everywhere,
being 5 or 6 people. Particularly as Assistant Superintendent and as Superintendent.
The school board wanted a lot of your time and needed a lot of your time in
terms of preparing them for the policies that they were being asked to institute
or the budget issues. Certainly you needed and wanted to be in the schools,
all 28 of them. I had come through a time, particularly as elementary, social
studies, science supervisor when I knew every teacher by first name, you know,
when they were having new babies, when they were getting married, when they
were going to school. As I got further away from that I was frustrated by not
being able to build that repoire with new teachers. And, yet I did understand
that with more than a 1,000 teachers and more than a 1,000 other employees,
you couldnt do that. But, of course, I admitted way back up there in another
question that my personal philosophy was sort of to try and motivate everybody.
And I dont think you can motivate them if you dont know them, this
sort of trying to motivate from a distance was a pressure. Safety issues at
times were more of a stress and how really little control you figured out you
actually had over that. I guess one the starkling, horrible memories that will
always be with me was my first year as Superintendent, we had had a really good
year. Then there was that March day when I got the phone call from Mr. Woolwine
saying that a 5 year-old child had been killed by being run over by one of our
own buses and nobodys fault, you know, ever found. The potential of course
then came along with the school security issues related to the horrible things
as with school shootings and I finally confessed to parents that well
do our best to keep your child safe; but, just like when you head across town
with a van load of children carpool you cant guarantee theyll get
there safely and I cant guarantee your child coming home safe today. These
things I think when I look back they were probably more stressful than I thought.

Q: I you had to do it all over again how would you have better prepared
yourself for administration or would you?

A: Well, I certainly could
have better prepared for the principalship but if I had been better prepared
they might not have asked me to go to central office as a supervisor and I might
not have become all those other things. Mr. Burton, the Superintendent at that
time had told me at one time, "No, I dont want you to come to the
central office. We need good principals. I want you to stay out there as a principal."
And then a year later, for some reason still not known to me asked me to come
to central office as a supervisor. Like I say, if I had been better prepared
they might have made me a principal and I might never have gotten in the doctoral
program. I do think that earning a doctorate from the principals job is
really tough. Dr. Cobble did it, and I guess Dr. Turner did it and Ive
known a number of people who did but thats a tall order.

Q: What
suggestions would you offer to universities as a way of helping them better
prepare candidates for administration?

A: Well, actually people like
Bob Carlton and Wayne Warner and Dave Parks, and I designed the Virginia Tech
Principal Preparation so I had a chance to implement everything I ever wanted
to make it more hands-on, to make it more experiential, feel-based. So, over
a course of two years with playing around I guess Wayne Warner was the one person
who always believed we could get by the Tech bureaucracy and find a way to do
that. Sort of cutting down on the course structure a little bit and making it
more feel based. Giving candidates more chances to interact with one another
and share their growing pains and that sort of thing. But to the best of my
knowledge thats been pretty much implemented. I think that Virginia Tech,
not just because I went there, is light years ahead what I encountered in Principal
Preparation in other Virginia public universities. Well, the state has dropped
the ball on that. And Thomas Elliot is a good friend of mine. We walked together
in graduation from Tech. Of course, hes realized how little he can do
from Richmond if he doesnt have a lot of support and they just arent
able to hold the state colleges feet to the fire. And so some of them
would come to me and say we had to get in 90 hours but well sort of get
in while were teaching, stroll down by the office on planning period or
whatever and Im saying no, I dont think so.

Q: There are
those that argue that the principal should be an instructional leader and those
that suggest that, realistically speaking, they should be a good manager. What
would be your opinion on that?

A: Well, they gotta be both. I personally
dont think that teachers . If the most important job a principal
has to do is to improve teacher performance and I believe it is then youre
not going to be able to do that if you are not an instructional leader. Just
like with the Superintendent, Thelma Haynesworth didnt expect me to know
everything about science but she did expect me to know good teaching and learning
when I saw it going on in her classroom and being able to react to what is good
teaching regardless of what the subject matter or content matter is. If youre
going to be real candid then certainly nobody is going to get along in a school
if they cant do the management things. If the books are not kept well,
if the attendance and the reports if theres not a good relationship
with the community all those things. But the faculty looks to the principal
to inspire higher standards for that school and continuous improvement. And
so you have to come across as an instructional leader.

Q: What do you
think about the ideal requirements for administration, for a person that wants
to enter administration and can you think of a better way to screen applicants?

A: Weve been really fortunate in Roanoke County in that we knew
a lot of the applicants because we had a chance to be exposed to them as teachers.
But, weve also been fortunate to hire a number of people from the outside.
I think credentials are important, I wouldnt want to overlook that and
I think thats an important part of the screening process. And quite frankly
you do have three years from the time you hire somebody to let them know if
they are not being successful and we have had to do that on a couple of occasions
and people went back to doing other jobs instead of trying to continue on in
the principalship. I think its worked pretty well really.

Q: What, in
your opinion, should be the role of the assistant principal?

A: Well,
ideally I would hope that every assistant principal had the opportunities I
had. My principal was perfectly willing to let me be one of the instructional
leaders. It didnt bother him at all that some teachers felt comfortable
coming to me and others felt comfortable coming to him about, you know, is this
child ready to be promoted, what should I do about this attendance problem,
what should I do about this discipline problem. So, he really prepared me by
letting me see all aspects. I think its a total waste to have an assistant
principal who, quote "do nothing but discipline." Nobody should do
nothing but one thing. Weve all got to share the duties that are not that
inspiring. Everybody should have a chance to be exposed to the teaching/learning
process as well. I would hope everybody would get well rounded in all of that.

Q: As you view it what characteristics are associated with the most effective
schools?

A: I think this was a question in one of my graduate courses.
What 1980? And I still think the same thing now that I thought then. As much
as we would like there to be a recipe there isnt a recipe. Its the
school thats able to build camaraderie with its faculty, able to inspire
them to believe that they have important roles to do. Its the school thats
able to bring the community in an appropriate way. And certainly I think about
the strong contrast between Bonsack Elementary school and Roland E. Cook Elementary
school in terms of the amount of parent involvement. But Roland E. Cook teachers
and staff took a lot of pains to try and bring the parents in at Roland E. Cook
in a meaningful way. I guess when I think about the differences in schools I
look at a Clearbrook and at a Glen Cove and at a Cave Spring and certainly they
require entirely different things of a principal because of the community and
of the faculty. And so the principals got to be able to take the hand
thats dealt and find a way to make a silk purse. There are certainly some
common threads. I think the schools that are the most successful have principals
who are cheerleaders for them. Whether its Chris and her group down at Clearbrook
or Thad and his gung-ho out there with his Cave Spring kids. Totally different
communities but the principal is a cheerleader for us, were the best,
he believes in us or she believes in us. A principal who stays involved on a
daily basis with teachers and with whats going on. A principal who is
very supportive of teachers as they go through the tough tasks of discipline
or interacting with difficult parents. (laugh) And no parent means to be difficult,
Im not saying that but they have frightening choices theyre making
to.

Q: Most systems presently have a tenure or continuing contract for
their teachers. Would you comment on the strengths and weaknesses of such a
system?

A: A lot of people dont think tenure is a good thing
but I dont see anything in the world wrong with it. I dont think
we should be able to get rid of a teacher or principal either unless we can
build a case for doing that and thats all tenure requires. Weve
released teachers who had 20 years experience, weve released Principals
who had 25 years experience. But youve got to be fair and candid enough
to document what their weaknesses are in their performance and support them
in growing into it and then showing them that they did not. If you cant
do that I dont think you ought to be able to dismiss people simply because
maybe they were going through one bad year or maybe their personal philosophy
doesnt agree with yours. Maybe they need to leave school, move schools
or whatever. If they dont take the initiative then you can take action.
I dont think there is anything wrong with tenure. It does make it difficult
to dismiss teachers or principals and many times we try to take a short cut
and dont do that when maybe we should. There is way to do it and we need
to just get over it.

Q: Would you discuss your general relationship,
pro or con, with the Board of Education?

A: I think it was fantastic
and if wasnt I didnt ever know it. Again, it was surprising that
it worked as well as it did. Because at the time I was hired it was an entirely
appointed board headed by Frank Thomas who had been chairman for 14 years. It
was a very stable board. But, I knew when they hired me that 4 out of 5 would
be gone in twelve months because they were not going to run for election. So
Jerry Canada was the only one who was there a year later. As elected school
boards came on of course they were more responsive to the voters and to the
parents concerns. But, maybe it was because I was older than any of them
but they always seemed to trust my judgment in the final analysis. Many times
they questioned it but thats their role. And so I thought we had a great
relationship and I really enjoyed working with them.

Q: Principals operate
in a constantly tense environment. What kind of things did you do to maintain
your sanity under such conditions?

A: I guess that first of all trying
to able to laugh and also keeping some outside interest whether its art, or
yard-work, or traveling, and I think I have a pretty strong religious faith
and that was real important. Lots of mornings youre going up the road
and you say, "God, this is too big. Lets help me whittle this down
to size." But I did this regardless of where I was in my career. Whether
it was a college test or whatever. I guess strong spiritual grounding and outside
interests that while I didnt always have time to pursue I was able to
read about or whatever. Attending the symphonies, going to the museums, those
kind of things.

Q: Since you have now had time to reflect on your career,
I wonder if you could share what you consider to be your strengths and weaknesses?

A: Well, I guess my strength primarily was having grown up here, having
spent my whole career in Roanoke County. As I told the school board when I interviewed:
people know Im not perfect. They know where the warts are and they learned
how to live with them. People knew me and what I stood for by having seen me
walk it and living it. Again, they knew the parts they didnt like and
what they needed to get around. The difficulty was not having experienced other
ways of doing things. I probably didnt bring as many innovative things
to the system as somebody who had worked in a number of different systems. Plus,
I was such a cheerleader always for the system that it was difficult to admit
things were wrong with it. I didnt want to admit there was anything wrong
with it. Its like your job.

Q: Would you discuss the circumstances
leading up to your decision to retire and maybe explain the mental processes
you went through?

A: Again, I guess it wasnt like a lot of people,
none of my career has been as you can see. If anybody had asked me six months
before I announced I would retire, and they did, I said I might work until Im
65 at least. I hadnt thought about retirement. Christmas of 98 and
we didnt travel for whatever reason and I stayed home and read some novels
cover to cover and I did some things around the house and whatever and I sort
of began to weigh what is it that you want to do in the school business. We
were going to be finishing several schools and getting others to that point.
I had wanted sort of get us through this first leg of Standards of Learning.
Make sure that we felt comfortable with that. With great leadership from people
like Billy Reed and Dave Wymer and all of them. You know, I felt like we were
comfortable with that. Financially, after 391/2 years, there is no reason to
stay, you go home and make as much as you did going to work everyday and I began
to think about all the things I could enjoy doing besides getting up to work
every day. And I said this is probably the right time. So the first meeting
in January I said to the Board I was going to retire and they said mid-year
and I said yes, mid-year.

Q: Despite my best efforts to be comprehensive
in my questioning did I leave something out?

A: No, as I looked over
them I didnt. It seemed pretty comprehensive to me. I didnt think
of other things unless you thought of other things. I dont mind what you
ask.

Q: Please discuss your style of personnel management; that is, approaches
you employed that contributed to your effectiveness as a manager.

A:
Well, let me see. I think one of the main things I did that was the most difficult
was to stay out of the process of hiring teachers. Too many obligations and
favors wanted. I did take a very personal responsibility in hiring all administrators.
I sat in all interviews and you can learn a lot in 30-40 minutes.

Q:
It has been said that good personnel managers encourage their subordinates and
peers by staging celebrations on their successes. To what extent did you engage
in this practice during your tenure as administrator, and to what extent did
it improve morale and organizational effectiveness?

A: I guess I think
that on the school level you must acknowledge peoples success. At the
central level we encouraged the school board to recognize achievement and effort
by staff and students. First Fridays as a time of spirit celebration. This is
very hard to do with administrators because they are so task oriented and social
interaction is hard to achieve.

Q: Some principals believe that teachers
and other staff members are, in general, well motivated and reliable self-starters.
Others feel that they must closely monitor the activities of their employees.
What approach did you customarily use during your administrative career?

A: 100% the first type and you know Im not Polyana to know everything
but if something bad is going on you will know before too long. I think educators
are professionals and know what they are doing.