• Pee on a Crucifix, you’re an “Artist” • Pee on The American Flag, you’re a “Constitutionalist” • Pee on a Police Car, you’re a “Freedom Lovin’ 99 percenter” • Pee on a Taliban piece of crap that just tried to kill you and your fellow Marines, you’re a “Villain”

-- Clint Searl....Ya can no more do what ya don't know how than ya can git back from where ya ain't been

I’ve read some things recently about how at the end of WWII, when U.S. troops were liberating nazi death camps, they were in shock at the conditions they encountered. Seeing how innocent people had been tortured and slaughtered by the thousands, the German guards were in some cases lined up and machine-gunned on the spot. In other cases, surviving prisoners were allowed to take revenge on their captors.

None of this ever made it into the newsreels, of course.

Abstractly, I cannot say that killing surrendered prisoners or urinating on the dead bodies of your enemies is morally okay. But I totally understand and agree with what has been said here about war being hell. One cannot put people into a position where they must become hardened to death and gore, where they must kill or be killed, where they must abandon all preconceived notions of human decency in order to physically and emotionally survive, and then expect them to make moral decisions with the same level of cool detachment as if they were home, sitting in their living rooms, discussing ethics over a cup of coffee with their golf buddies.

Why all the fuss? The media’s prime directive is to stir up controversy, sensationalize everything, and causing discourse for the topic to stay on the “front page” to assist sales.In this incident to have to ask yourselves why someone would have video recorded it, the troops involved certainly were “acting” for the camera, – was this “happening” choreographed.? The fact is, nasty things happen in war, as some others have pointed out, but usually they are instances outside the “war creed box”, and are quietly attended to by military law enforcement personal.Does this controversy suggest that our military cannot police itself?, I think not. War is indeed Hell and can be described by it’s lowest common denominator, Kill or Be Killed. Your duty is to stay alive and keep serving your country’s orders by killing your country’s enemies by any means under the Geneva Convention. Often our enemies do not follow the convention, and this infuriates our military, which can at times produce incidents that don’t conform to our Geneva Convention standards, but these are rare and easily attended to by the military code enforces.

So ask yourself, would you not think that our enemies or their supporters gain with this sort of controversy?It becomes clear that this whole incident was contrived, choreographed and brought to our attention to damage our military and country – They are part of the enemy fifth column. Let’s round them up and charge them with treason.

-- Roger-R, Republic of Texas. "Always look on the Bright Side of Life" - An eyeball to eyeball confrontation with a blind person is as complete waste of Time.

I agree with Murch on this one. But have a few of my own ideas to throw in.What has been done to us is far worse than pissing on someones dead body, however, they were still pissing on someones dead body. Filming it only makes it worse, this will be used a recruitment tool for them and it WILL create far worse actions against our military as “pay back” If we pass off something like pissing on the face of a dead man as acceptable then we have slid greatly as a country. They will be punished by the Marine Corps, and they should, if for nothing else then at least for making a horrible tactical decision that creates greater threat.

I think that Mike, Murch and Neanderthal have the issue down. I’m really hoping that Roger is speaking tongue in cheek with his last part. Although enemy propaganda and enlistment could benefit from this I doubt that they are fifth column plants. Just young men with a lot of stress that went too far. Just have the marine courts deal with them and reprimand them and move on.

Here is what I don’t understand. If you think it was bad, you must be some hippie that never served. And if you served you seem to think its okay. What those four idiots did will help recruit more of our enemy and cause retaliation. That in of its self pisses me off. If you have fought and bled, why would you encourage thinks like this or write them off, when they are just going to add to the spilling of more American blood? However, I also think it was a horrible act.

Now, before some you go getting your panties in a bunch over me calling them idiots, let me explain.

These Marine Scout Snipers are my brothers, my idiotic brothers at this point, but my brother none the less. I was sitting with my spotter and my M40A1 killing terrorists in Africa before killing terrorists was cool (ie, before 9/11). I have bled for my country in Afgan AND Iraq, I’ve made others bleed for their’s in both of them as well as 4 other countries. This isn’t my first rodeo and I’ve been looking through glass longer than any of the kids in the video, but I went through the school at Quantico when I was 19 and was pulling triggers in foreign lands when I was still a teenager. I have known a lot of close friends, brothers in the Marines, that never returned, I have felt a lot of pain, and I have seen more pain in wives and mothers eyes than anyone should see in a life time. To think that these Marines, that are trained, fellow snipers, would be so careless pisses me off. They should have known that if that video ever found its way out, it would be used to recruit and “fire up” more terrorist. They should have known this video WILL cause so much more pain for wives and mothers back home when its all said and down.

Sorry, for the rant. Anyone can see looking at my other posts that I never comment on anything but wood working related stuff here. But with my past this topic is very neat and dear to me.

The Newage Neanderthal SAID: ”Here is what I don’t understand. If you think it was bad, you must be some hippie that never served. And if you served you seem to think its okay.”

Huh? Please, next time read for content. While I understand the REMAINDER of your comments, the above statement is judgmental and uninformed so don’t go off into extremes just to flatter yourself. I am glad that you served, as did I, however I DO feel this act was a bad thing. So why would you go off accusing all critics of this stupid act as you call it, as being from ”...some hippie that never served.”? At 30yr of age, you never personally knew any hippies, nor what they stood for OR faced in bringing an end to the Vietnam war.

I believe you did yourself a disservice young man, in answering the way you have above. Just my 2-cents…

Well put “TNN”! What they did was “dilbert” to the max. Their machismo at the time of this incident though they may have thought was “cool” has cast a pawl over the Corps. Above all things they should have known that you NEVER disgrace THE CORPS. But as it has been suggested they need to be article 15’d, get busted back to lowly assed PFC, have a letter in their jacket, be made to apologize in full dress uniform before their unit, and sing The Marines Hymn (both verses) in front of said unit. But “criminal” charges? NFW! Their career plans for being a Marine if they had any are pretty much DONE. This incident will go down as a “benchmark” of what not to do in a combat situation.

Please read for content yourself my friend. I clearly am a harsh critic of the act and think what was done was horrible. Said so different ways, It really pisses me off too because of how I know it will be used. My statement was ”Here is what I don’t understand. If you think it was bad, you must be some hippie that never served. And if you served you seem to think its okay.” I don’t understand that view as it has been expressed on here.

KnickKnack was bullied from the post early on with the assumption right out of the gate he never served (which he didn’t, but thats not the point)

rosebudjim said ”And, before someone out there in LJ land, who has never been shot at and never seen a body bag – STUFF IT!”

KenBee said ”Being a Vietnam veteran and serving over 3 years in country you really don’t want to read my thoughts on this matter because they wouldn’t paint a very satisfying picture.”

The clear argument coming forth was. If you have served you would be okay with these, maybe as some, even regard it as a good thing. If you are pissed about it, you clearly are some military hating commie. I am a Marine and I love the Marine Corps. I am pissed off about what my fellow Marines did.

Lastly, I am not trying to war with you Mike, I have agree with what you have posted, and I have read alot of what you have posted here, I agree with some of it, not all, but some.

First, piss christ was an attempt by Andres Serrano to contrast the hypocrisy in the Roman Catholic (in which he was raised) church by denouncing practices such as Santeria (which is practiced in Cuba where one of his parents is from) , yet have us bow to a “figure” such as a crucified Christ. What would happen if you meld the two? The job of an artist is to provoke thought, or at least try to follow their train of thought. I am sure Serrano thought at the time this was a good idea. Then again the guy clearly has a fetish for human liquids and by products… :-)

On the other hand, as an outsider, I have to agree with KnickKnack. If you cannot see what is wrong with the actions of these marines, then right there is the problem. I won’t argue the merits ( or lack thereof) of the US armed forces being on another country supposedly “fighting” for your country, it does not affect me. What does, is that it seems to me you have much bigger problems at home where the US is starting to look like the Roman empire on it’s waning days. Beleaguered on all fronts, yet unable to focus on the important and basic ones.

For example, your supposed “war” on drugs. If the US used 1/10 of the money used to send troops to other countries to close your borders, you could kill two birds with one stone, end drug and immigration problems. As a Mexican I am tired of having my country fight your drug problem by default. I am tired of the insecurity and corruption this trade engenders just because as a nation you cannot control yourselves.

Once again, to an outsider, some of the hate filled responses given on these thread are appalling. I wonder where went all the values that the US seems to want the rest of the world believe are basic to your country. Just because your enemy behaves dishonorably it does not give you carte blanche to behave in the same manner, if your values are as important to you as you claim them to be. I wonder how can you claim that you are in these countries to “liberate”, bring “freedom” and “democracy” to their people and then behave just like they do?

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

General Sherman knew the only way to fight a war is to totally destroy the other sides will to fight. If the civil war has the same rules of engagement that we have today we would probably still be fighting it. These sanitary wars that have been fought since WWII are wars that can never be won because we try to fight “nice”

TNN,You are so busy beating your own drum that you appear deaf to any other point of view. ”Hippie”?, ”...you clearly are some military hating commie”? Do you realize just how easy you make it sound for you, or others with your mind set, to be led around by targeted propaganda? THAT is something an enemy would love to exploit.

My advice is to just do NOT give them the chance. Be angry at the act, but do NOT diss others and run your mouth calling others names JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE PISSED. Geez man! I am talking about taking the higher moral ground here, NOT wrestling the pig down in the mud. Americans used to be famous for looking past individual acts and understanding the bigger picture of what is at stake when at war. Don’t lose hold of that bigger picture, or you will become no better than your enemy. And if you become no better than your enemy, then you ARE the enemy.

I’m a marine and i know when i was 17 i wasn’t an adult but i was fighting my ass off. We can train kids to fight all we want but they are still kids I don’t know the ages or ranks of these marine but i will bet they are all young and e-3 and below. Yes it was stupid, one just doing it , having evidence you did it and then putting it on the net. Give them an article 15, let them learn there lesson, don’t destroy there lives. War is hell and they are kids/ young adults, kids/young adults screw up!!!!!!

Ok Mike,I don’t know of any other way of explaining this. All of the things you are pointing out in what I am saying are the things that I am saying others are saying. Others are making the argument implicitly that I am stating explicitly. I do not think someone is a “military hating commie” if they don’t like this act. I do not like it, do you think I am calling myself that? That seems to be the running view on here, that if you disagree you must be someone that never served and are a pansy. I’m saying, I served, I don’t like. I am saying the “you never served, you don’t know what its like” argument doesn’t hold any weight with me.

@ Mr Neanderthal …I understood that you were, I believe, summarising what had been presented in the thread.I was pleased to see someone who served saying it was “wrong” – it was starting to seem like anyone who’d been to war was unable, suddenly, to tell right from wrong.

The old expression says ”Two wrongs don’t make a right”.Now we seem to have a new equation along the lines of…“5 wrongs + 3 attrocities + they did it first = we can do what we like” I reject this.I also reject this notion that “unless you’ve served you don’t know so shut up”.I’ve never served.True.I’m grateful to those who have, and do, and will, serve.I have no conception of the horrors of war.True.And, without such knowledge, I am unable to fully grasp what has lead these marines to do something that is wrong. But it’s still wrong. Argue that the horrors of war has clouded their judgment. Argue that the horrors of war has, temporarily, left them unable to tell right from wrong. Argue that the balance of their minds was disturbed by the horrors of war. All these are reasons to explain why something wrong was done. But none of them make it any the less wrong.

These sanitary wars that have been fought since WWII are wars that can never be won because we try to fight “nice”An interesting viewpoint, but not, I believe, true.

Firstly, I don’t think we fought “nice” in WWII – the Dresden and Hamburg carpet bombing, to pick just 2 examples, weren’t “nice” at all. (Please note – I am not making a judgement on whether we should, or should not, have done this, just pointing out that it wasn’t “nice”)

Secondly, I don’t think we’re fighting “nice” now – this is one example, others have been mentioned in various posts above, and I strongly suspect that, for every 1 we hear about, another 10 go unreported. The use of Agent Orange and Agent Blue during the Vietnam wasn’t “nice” (Please note – I am not making a judgement on whether you should, or should not, have done this, just pointing out that it wasn’t “nice”). This is, imho, a good reason for the press to be out there in the combat zone.

Thirdly, and, I think, most importantly, post WWII wars were/are fights to impose our will on other people, in their country – excepting a country run by sheep, I don’t think such a war can be won.

Fourthly, and this is a particular bee in my bonnet, we’re inconsistent about where we do, and where we do not, chose to fight…What have we done about Syria, a country with little freedom and no democracy? More people have been killed than were killed in Libya, yet we do nothing.We are friends with Saudi Arabia – that well known free and democratic country.We fought in Kuwait (and I think won), to re-establish the Emir as supreme ruler – nice to see how we tried to get democracy going there.We are fighting the Taliban, and supporting the current regime in Afghanistan, yet that regime is almost as bad – paragraph 1 of which is – ”An Afghan bill allowing a husband to starve his wife if she refuses to have sex has been published in the official gazette and become law.” What a giant leap forward we’ve bought with all those lives!There is a somewhat large country with a dismal human rights record – with little or no freedom and no democracy. Do we fight? Sanctions maybe? No – we court these people.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence." --- "Following the rules and protecting the regulations is binding oneself without rope."

Fourthly, and this is a particular bee in my bonnet, we’re inconsistent about where we do, and where we do not, chose to fight…

KnickKnack, I couldn’t agree with you more on that statement. Oh, there’s a reason why we choose the fights we choose, but the government’s never honest about it. It always comes down to a combination of oil, money, and politics. Human rights issues in the middle east pale in comparison to what has been and is going on in some of the poor, desolate countries in Africa. And yet you never see us jumping into action in those places, because they have no financial or strategic value to us.

it is very sad that there is a growing number of people who cherish the safety of their home and country but scorn the few who against great odds sacrifice much and sometimes all to keep them and theirs, safe and well. Our military and political leaders could certainly spend their time more wisely trying to help our troops, not condemn them for something so trite. When was the last time these brave “leaders” went out on a patrol.Not one of the photo ops that was set up for them. You know, the ones with real bullets and ied’s. Real taliboos and all. Their fact finding missions could be held on a hollywood soundset and would save the taxpayer a lot of money. I don’t believe a legitimate newsperson would have persued this as newsworthy.These soldiers didn’t piss on muslims, they pissed on taliban. Cut and dried, thats it. Military leaders, politicians, newspeople and some muslims have decided the taliban should be treated as an honorable foe even though they do not reciprocate.When these soldiers leave the service, maybe they will get great paying jobs because of this. You know, like the politicians do when they screw up.I was in the service. We had a saying for situations such as this: PISS ON IT.

Col. West is excluded from my anti-politician statements. Every now and then—-a good one.

KnickKnack taking a leak on a corpse is hardly an atrocity, I imagine alot worse happens in the morgues in our very own country by civilians occasionally.

When I refer to WWII I refer to cutting the ears of the dead Japanese to make a necklace, shooting your officer in charge in the back of the head because you didnt like him, and other reasons the Japanese would not surrender to the marines. I have heard these stories from my grandfather, God only knows what he didnt talk about.

Just got this from a friend of mine relative to this subject/situation:

This from a Friend of mine,

Okay, I have to say something about the Marine pissing incident. Was itinappropriate? Yes. Would I have done it? Probably not. Would I have done itwhen I was 19? Maybe. Were there times that I may have done it in Viet Namif time permitted? There is a good chance for, “probably”. I was 22 when Iwas there and was called the old man and pops.

We send kids a year out of high school to the worst hell holes on earth andexpect them to behave better than they did at their senior prom. So manyAmericans have lived for multiple generations with security at home thatthey can’t comprehend what goes on in other parts of the world. “War isHell”, isn’t just something they say in the movies. First of all, you areexhausted all the time because you never sleep deeply. Your body is runningon high idle even when you try to rest. The places we send these kids to,stink from lack of sanitation. There are bugs and mold and mildew and trashand human waste everywhere. You are in some level of fear all the time. Youhave seen, smelled, heard, touched and done things no sane person would everwant to do.

There is no script for war. It is improv at it’s best. Shit happens and ithappens fast. A blind eye should be turned to many, many things.

We have no idea what led up to this incident. Did these kids eat in the past24 hours? Have they slept in the past 36 hours? What did these talabanersdo?

War is about killing people and breaking their things. We have forgotten howto fight. You can’t win peoples hearts while shooting their Uncle Fred. Weknock down a dung and stick shed, and then replace it with a $12,000,000hospital! Well who won that one?

This is how we need to fight.

1. Go in, kick ass on those who pissed us off.

2. Destroy their infrastructure.

3. Go home when you are sure they won’t have the desire to screw with usagain for at least two generations.

I hate war. I’m glad my Sons didn’t have to go to war.

In reference to current times, we will never win the hearts of muslims.They don’t even like themselves, hate their family and kill their neighbors,so what chance do we stand. The only course to follow is to convince themthat the cost of messing with the west is way to too high.

Back to the pissing kids. Slap their hands, tell them not to do it again andnot to try to figure out how pissing is bad and killing is okay.

War is HELL; it sucks, smells bad and is bad for your physical and mentalhealth. Don’t sit in your recliner watching CNN and pass judgment on thesekids.

I think those marines should lose a stripe as punishment. Not only is it behavior unbecoming a marine, it is also unbecoming anyone. We don’t need to get down to their level. We are better than that. We might expect that behavior from Taliban, but not from a U.S. Marine. But of course the media is wrong in publizing it.Chipmunk expressed it better than I did.

ok, let me start by saying ive been a longtime reader of LJs. this post motivated me to actually make an account so i could “have my say”

Im not going to try to piss anyone off or tell anyone that their opinion is wrong. But you all need to understand how our modern Marine Corps works. Yes, honor courage committment is important. but so is killing. thats what you never hear about on the commercials. Killing other people doesnt come easily to most of us. Marine boot camp, training, and even everyday life is designed for one purpose. To make killing America’s enemies acceptable to you.

In order to do this, you have to learn how to dehumanize your enemy. from what i read, we did this during WWII. “Yellow Devils” and all that. So to a combat Marine, a taliban fighter is just “a dirty F-n Hadji”

Its easier to kill something you consider to be nonhuman. therefore, it must have been much easier for these marines to piss on their dead enemies. Im not saying its right or wrong, Just saying it like it is. So to blame them for seeing the enemy as nonhuman wont make any sense to them. the problem is, theres nothing wrong with the training. We need our warfighters to think like this. If a marine hesitates for a second on a kill shot, another marine could die. As Gen. Patton said, “you dont win wars by dying for your country, you win by making the other SOB die for his.” Maybe these Marines took it too far. at least by what everyone is saying. How about instead of punishing them, first we get them some Psych evals? Maybe that training was a little too good, and their unit need to take it down a notch. Me personally, i cant say that i would or wouldnt have done it when i was in Iraq.

As for the draft idea, i dont think this would work. From what i have seen personally. keep in mind i said what I have seen, Most americans are too weak mentally. Ive seen men have what the Docs called a “mental break.” they were unable to deal with the idea of killing another man. On some level i envy these people, on some level i dont. btw heres a sidenote. im all for womens equality, letting them vote and have jobs that pay the same as men. But if women want to be equal, i think they should have to enroll at the selective service as well. If we get in a war where we need men to fight, we’ll also need men and women as support personel.

All in all, let me just say this. The world is a scary place. Any american reading this should feel lucky to live where they do. You most likely arent too worried about a suicide bomber or an IED blowing up your house, family, or loved ones. we have our problems for sure, but not like places ive seen.

“Americans sleep peacibly in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf” Please, please, support these men, God knows we need it. Pray for them, dont judge them. you may not understand what they do, but please make an effort to understand how their minds work. Four marines did something that our society says is wrong. We never hear about the good things these men did. No one cares that they killed our enemies. that the deaths of evil men save the lives of the innocent.

For any of you wondering, I served active duty USMC from 2005 til 2009. i spent 2007 in Iraq, and i swear im not trying to piss anyone off or say anyone is wrong

The only way to fight barbarians, is to be as barbaric as they are. We teach that in basic training. Yea, their only mistake was being filmed. People here don’t realize these people are living in the stone age. Hunkered down in caves after ambushes on our guys. That is the war they are fighting. Hit and run, and roadside IED’s. I say bomb them back further than the stone age. They have no intention of ever coming together as a country. They are a bunch of tribes that have intentions of eliminating other tribes, because they can’t and won’t get along. They would sell out their own brother. These are not humane people folks, they’ve lived this way for thousands of years and we’re not going to change their thinking. If we learned anything in Vietnam, it should be this lesson. Also don’t forget these are the one of the biggest exporters of Opium and Hashish. Sorry to those I offended.

-- (You just have to please the man in the Mirror) Mike from Michigan -

Good post Scarecrow and jockmike.Obiviouslly this issue died down only to be fueled by other issues.Nothing has changed, they still hate us. Always have always will. We should pack our kit and come home. There is no “mission” there for us.

By the way I was drafted during Nam. No I never saw combat, so I don’t know how I’d react to any war situation, but to say it’s ok that we KILLED these people, but pissing on them is wrong leaves me just befuddled.

-- (You just have to please the man in the Mirror) Mike from Michigan -

My daughter is a marine she did 2 tours in Iraq can you imagine what went thru my head thinking about what might happen if she fell into the talibans hands,first of all people forget we are dealing with kids 18-21 year olds mostly slap these guys on the wrist and let them get back to the war TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS