When AA Hurts

This is my personal story of being abused, first by my mother, then by a rapist-“boyfriend,” and then by AA. Each form of abuse predisposed me to be a victim of the other, and I had to escape all of them.

I learned in therapy that my low-self esteem and vulnerability left me open to being hurt. I got these feelings at home, from my mother. Then other abusers found me. Abusers like easy targets, such as people who are starved for love or attention or who fear being abandoned. I also used alcohol to tamp down my feelings of shame and disgust from being emotionally, physically, and sexually abused.

Then, I went to Alcoholics Anonymous, where I really suffered abuse. I was sentenced to AA after escaping a guy who raped me, refused to let me go free, and made me steal for him. I either went to AA, or I'd be thrown in jail. But AA only made me remember his death threats and heightened my helplessness and despair. One woman explained to me that you had to expect to be raped when you're drunk. I needed to accept my "part in it." If I ever criticized AA, I was being an "AA Basher."

In therapy, I was preoccupied with my issues with AA. I drank rather than fighting my battles in AA. After my third DUI, my AA boyfriend kicked me out and kept our four-year-old daughter, leaving me to move back to my parents' house with my 10-year-old son from a previous relationship. Then the court ordered me into residential treatment the winter of 2011-2012. On visitation days, my mom would give elaborate speeches to the group about being a heartbroken mother. Her theatrics resulted in other parents applauding her. The family counselor noticed my reactions: Gripping the seat of my chair, hugging my stomach, and keeping my head down. The counselor made me aware for the first time that my mother had a personality disorder.

My mother carried the delusional view that she was a very good person and everyone was out to destroy her. My mom arrived at rehab with photographs of my bedroom full of unpacked boxes (she wouldn’t allow me to unpack), which she said proved that I hated her. She demanded to know why I suddenly began hating her at age 15. At that age I asked her for help because I was cutting myself. The next year she accused me of being on drugs and staged an intervention. "Julie needed tough love," she said, "She's like this because of what my brother did to me." My feelings were ignored because my mom had to make it about her.

And so, the AA accusation that alcoholics are people unable to recognize their wrongdoings and character defects sounded familiar to me. The “fellowship” had the same symptoms as a narcissist! And, once again, I was defenseless. A narcissist is never wrong, just as if you relapse in AA it is your fault, never AA's fault. Narcissists see everyone as their mirror, and if you agree with them all is well. If you disagree, you are an enemy. The AA members I met became instantly defensive whenever I criticized AA. They were like my mother!

Whenever I tried to clear up my confusion or argued at AA, I was assailed with accusations that “you're headed for a relapse.” (I drank a few times during the four-month period following rehab, but never to the point of getting into trouble.) If I asked questions, I was told "You think you know it all, but your own best thinking got you here." Hearing that I was powerless and that without AA I would die sounded very familiar to me. AA rules by the same fear and confusion abusers like my mother and my rapist use to keep their victims under control.

Fear is what led me to drink. Drinking helped me blot out some of the painful and confusing memories I had since childhood. When I was nine years old, my mother convinced me that our phone was tapped and her brother was plotting to kidnap and murder my entire family. At the same time, my mom often threatened suicide and it was my job to talk her out of it.

The most abusive part for my household regime was being sworn to secrecy. I couldn't trust my friends, their parents, or any of my teachers with our secrets—so I was isolated in my fear and guilt. As a teenager, my mom tried to make me confess that my uncle molested me. I almost admitted it a few times because it was what my mom wanted to hear. I felt the same way in AA when I made a moral inventory or I listed those I had harmed. The more names I added to the list of those I had hurt, the better AA liked me. I needed to take personal responsibility for what others did to hurt me, so if I was upset that I was raped and beaten I needed to look at what I did to provoke being raped. Victim-blaming was something I could do to myself without anyone else's help.

In AA I often heard that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action expecting different results. By 2011, when I was arrested for my third DUI, it was clear to me that going back to AA meetings was not going to break the cycle for me. And, so, I told my counselor at residential rehab that Alcoholics Anonymous was one of my triggers. Now, because I was court ordered into treatment, the risk I took by speaking up against AA was being thrown in jail.

I wanted to recover—who doesn’t? I made it clear that I was not rejecting help, only that my AA experiences were hurting me. The treatment center documented my struggles with spirituality, since I was an atheist. One counselor explained to me that addicts aren't able to imagine abstract ideas, and that my denying a higher power was another failure of mine. But I wasn’t going to allow them to confront me until I broke down and gave up on my own beliefs and values. Aren't those the same techniques that abusers use to get victims to knuckle under?

My need to speak up about AA was as important to me as resolving my relationship with my mother. I was determined to find my own way out of my own mess. I had to scramble to find rides to outpatient treatment because mom regularly refused to take me. She invited herself to a court hearing, where she told the court and the audience that I was breaking her heart, had gotten worse after rehab, and was a horrible mother to my kids. A day after that performance, I had my first full-blown relapse—I drank myself into a hospital.

I decided that I’d never set foot in another AA meeting, and instead I started a secular S.O.S. meeting. And, while I knew I had to stop trying to make my mom happy at my own expense, she could still hurt me badly. She threatened to evict me unless I signed over custody of my son to her. She did evict me just before Thanksgiving, without any place to go to. I ended up staying with a friend who lived more than 20 miles away from my work. There was no bus line, so I had to arrange transportation with a rotating cast of friends. Meanwhile, my mom was upset that I didn't want to be her friend on Facebook.

For the next eight months, I worried that I would get in trouble for not going to the three AA meetings a week I was court ordered to attend. I attended S.O.S. instead, and I was prepared to tell the judge that I would rather go to jail than go to another AA meeting. I worried about my mom's irrationality, which was escalating. During a Mother's Day brunch at my grandmother’s nursing home, she said she saw my current boyfriend hit my dad, and started a melee. She seemed totally out of control.

Two months later, my mom, age 65, suddenly died. The last time I spoke with her, she yelled at me. I had come to terms with the fact she was ill, but dead is forever. I broke down and for a few months I drank like a fish. Maybe more than people usually do when someone dies, but in terms of my life I was having a normal reaction to a very abnormal situation. Since Christmas of last year, I drank twice, but only a couple of drinks each time. I haven’t taken any medications since I left rehab. The man I live with now drinks a couple of beers occasionally.

I managed to inform my long lost, supposedly evil, uncle that his sister had died. We had a gathering with her side of her family, whom I thought I'd never see again. For 23 years (I am now 32), I obeyed my mom and never talked to them. My children don't know them. My mom often said, "I don't have a family," and that was how I felt my entire life.

I no longer have to deal with my mother, for better or worse. And I don’t choose to deal with AA. Yet, for nearly everyone, AA is the only way to treat alcoholics, as though everyone will benefit from the AA experience. But I didn’t. I loved my mom so much I would rather hurt myself than hurt her. I found it extremely easy to point out my faults. I didn't need the 12 steps to remind me of my character defects—my mother had made me only too ready to recognize them. Fortunately, I learned enough in therapy to know real recovery involves loving yourself as well as acknowledging when you are weak and wrong.

Juliet Abram is a clerk at a tool shop in Ohio who also writes. Juliet is seeking to expand addiction treatment and support group options in Ohio. If you share her concerns, please contact her through her A.A.R.M.E.D. website.

The horrible fact is I had to get a 3rd DUI after being sent to rehab and AA years before. And I was still court ordered to 12 Step rehab. At that point, even I knew something was wrong with both of us- the system and myself. I wasn't getting the right help, even though I was begging for help. My psychologist suggested an emotional behavioral cognitive therapy group (ran by a professional doctor) and my probation officer rejected it because it didn't specifically address addiction.

I believe I know the writer here and am so moved. AA is a perfect storm for all of this to just get worse. No one should ever be sent to AA. Im sorry you had to go through this stuff. My story is different but we have some commonalities. Thank you Stanton for having her piece published here. Juliet...keep on writing girl!

I really appreciate your comment. I really want the system- both the courts and all treatment centers & doctors- to give people in need a real "assessment" and if AA is not the right fit: Don't force AA on people. All other treatments are based on the patients' needs and this is really no different. I am very glad Stanton gave me an opportunity to share my story on here. Many thanks to him.

I'm sad to hear your story, but I am truly confused by it. I am a substance abuse counselor in NC and I work with people who have gotten DWI's in NC and other states. I can't speak for all the states but I have worked with a large number of states. All the way from California to Kansas and New York. What I have learned about the state mandated or court requirements for DWI offenders is a real assessment and education or treatment depending on the need of the person. I conduct these assessments myself and recommend appropriate levels of education or treatment. I take what I do very seriously and try my best to help those dealing with addiction. In NC any treatment recommendations come with the requirement to go to AA, NA, or Celebrate Recovery. We do this to help people learn about addiction and the resources they have for support. Often times they get a lot more out if it. I have been to these meetings myself and have heard countless stories and feedback about them. What I have learned about these types of meetings is that most of the time people will find what they are looking for in them. However, I have had people tell me about experiences where a person in the meeting was in the wrong. We're all human and you can find type of wrong any where we go because people aren't perfect and sometimes we make mistakes- say things we shouldn't say or think in an irrational way. I'm certainly no different. I have had people go to one AA meeting and hate it, but try a different one and love it. I don't doubt there were people who were in the wrong in your case. But we can't control others, only ourselves. That doesn't necessarily mean not going to meetings. If we wanted avoid people who are going to treat us unkind or unfair we would have to avoid the world and stay at home. We can change the way we react and think about these things. It seems to me that I have a different understanding of the AA steps. For example the character defects is a way to find what led us down the path of alcohol abuse. This to me simply means to become aware of it and try to improve on it. It's not about just pointing out our faults. It's about empowering ourselves to change for the better. I don't think it is right to look at what you did that could cause your own rape, because no matter what you did nothing excuses rape. No one wants that. But instead to look at the thinking and behavior that led to the drinking in excess. One more thing, as a substance abuse counselor with a master's degree in mental health. I have to say that people (myself included) have a way of getting stuck in roles in our lives. Being a victim is one of those roles. We are drawn to certain types of people (bullies for example), just as you pointed out that bullies are drawn to victims. I used to be a victim myself. But I got tired of it. I went to counseling myself and empowered myself to change my way of thinking and behaving. I still catch myself sometimes trying to slip back into old ways, but self-awareness goes a long way. Bottom line: While AA and similar groups may not be for everyone I think it is misguided to accuse them of making you a victim. It sounds to me like your thinking in reaction to the meeting led you all too ready to assume that position.

"We do this to help people learn about addiction and the resources they have for support." There is no education, facts, data or resources in AA.

I was criticized, mocked, and put down by my "friends" in AA for not accepting their program. I delved into AA literature and read up on the writings of Bill Wilson himself. I could not understand why they did not want to remove the sexism or make their spiritual terms generalized. Then, I got the impression that telling their "last drunk," was perhaps not healthy for them, or myself. I mistakenly thought a spiritual program created spiritual, kind, people but that became an unrealistic expectation for me as too many in AA were not spiritual or kind.

I also get the impression that some people say they like AA meetings to their counselor because they think that's what the counselor wants to hear. Most are too intimidated to speak up that the program doesn't work, that they go there to get drunk or high after the meeting, or that most of the people there are "still sick."

The program is the cause, and the effect is people treating other members unkindly for not liking the program. People will not be supportive unless you worked the "program." That is unhealthy, creates closed minds, and does not help people grow in recovery. No, I can't control others, or AA, but I was not the professional in control- I was not the one who chose AA for me even after it was evident AA was not good for me.

Sure, there are unkind people at the grocery store or in the line at the bank, but here's the kicker--- I do not willingly choose to go to a meeting to be around unkind people on purpose because I care about my health and sanity. I can't predict it at the store, no, but it's far less likely anyone at the market will come up to me and harass me about what my higher power is, laugh at me if I don't have one, or hear about my rape story and tell me it's my fault. So you can't compare the outside world to why a person is at AA. You don't go to the bank to give your teller your 5th step, do you?

The steps as written are not empowering--- unless you play a game with linguistics and semantics and redefine them entirely. The steps by themselves are negative, self-deprecating, and harmful to the rest of us who read them as they are written.

How did my thinking and behavior lead up to my rape? Women in AA told me that too. I realize you may think you are being helpful, but if you tell women their behavior led up to the rape, you are still blaming her for being raped. There is no excuse for that. On a usual basis, I don't have to change my behavior to avoid rape. It's not my fault.

I'm sure your master's degree in mental health and substance abuse certification involved learning about AA, it may make you book smart on the steps, but it doesn't indicate how it is to be at meetings and in the culture. Perhaps you don't like what I say about the program, but it is misguided to compare my experience to someone else's who adores AA. I was raped. I was court ordered as a result of abuse. I was abused by the AA teachings. AA's program is abusive and I've been to therapy for that, and I will not have my experience trivialized.

Ms. Abram's post is a beautifully written statement about the very common failings of AA meetings. In our new book, "The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry" we presented many similar accounts written by people in AA. Whenever these stories are made public,though, there are always others who try to minimize their significance, and marginalize those who speak out as rare exceptions. The truth is the reverse: in our review of nearly 50 years of research, we found that only 5-10% of all the people who attend 12-step meetings do well. It is precisely people like Ms. Abram who represent the majority of those who attend AA. We need to listen closely to people like her, and learn from her conclusions. I'm so glad she does not let herself or her experience be trivialized.

"There is no education, facts, data or resources in AA." First of all, I want to say that AA in of itself has been a tremendous resource for countless people. Just having the support and outlet or a sponsor- someone you can call in the middle of the night and get help backing down from taking the wrong step. Facts and education- when I was referring to education on addiction I was referring to hearing peoples stories about what addiction has done to their lives and what they have done to stay sober or what has contributed to a relapse in the past. Like you mentioned my book smarts, it helps to hear real life stories.

"How did my thinking and behavior lead up to my rape? Women in AA told me that too. I realize you may think you are being helpful, but if you tell women their behavior led up to the rape, you are still blaming her for being raped. There is no excuse for that. On a usual basis, I don't have to change my behavior to avoid rape. It's not my fault." ----- As for this I specifically said that what they said was wrong about that. What I said was this "I don't think it is right to look at what you did that could cause your own rape, because no matter what you did nothing excuses rape. No one wants that. But instead to look at the thinking and behavior that led to the drinking in excess. "
I was basically focusing on the drinking, completely separate from the rape topic. AA is not for the treatment of rape. I am so glad to hear that you were getting counseling specific for that abuse and the other abuse you wrote of, but when it comes to what I was saying about looking at your own thinking and behavior I was referring to it being related to the drinking. We choose to drink. We don't choose to be raped.

Your response seems to be an example of what I was talking about. In no way did I want to trivialize your experience. Just that I feel it is unfair to discount AA altogether. That was my whole point. I believe I also pointed out that everyone's different and so AA won't be for everyone, but to discount it across the board is a little extreme. It's just hard for me to read something like that when I have been to these meetings and in the culture (as you said) and have literally heard so many people say that AA saved their lives. I understand you disagree, but slamming it and saying things like... "The program is the cause, and the effect is people treating other members unkindly for not liking the program. People will not be supportive unless you worked the "program." That is unhealthy, creates closed minds, and does not help people grow in recovery." ... seems a little over the top. That was the way you experienced AA. Not everyone has a bad experience with it.

At the end of the day what works, works. If what you have done has helped you in your struggles then that is wonderful for you and shows how much strength and courage you have. However, AA works for a lot people. Telling your story is one thing, but to label AA in the terms I've read from things you've written can be discouraging for those who might be considering it and and could possibly benefit.

Including stories then means, including my own. My experience in AA is a real life story. I do hope it helps others.

I assumed education meant current information, not 1939's definition of alcoholism by AA, but decades' of information. You have a master's degree which I assume you did not earn by listening to stories all day.

Perhaps I misunderstood how you phrased understand why I drank right after you said there's no excuse for rape, which made it seem those ideas wee linked. The counseling was more helpful than AA, however, I'd have to say alcoholism was not my primary problem. And AA and rehab combined with counseling did not mesh well, as you can't heal and find empowerment while listing wrongs and making constant amends. Rehab and AA set me backwards, counseling sent me forwards.

I used to tell counselors and AA meetings that AA saved my life too, it seemed the right thing to say at the time. But as my experience and knowledge changed, so did my impression of AA. Have you followed up on those who've claimed they owe it all to AA? At any rate, people who have been hurt by AA are allowed to tell their stories, they are as valid as anyone who says AA is great. Education includes learning from all people, then, not just those who think AA is wonderful all the time.

Seems easier to blame people who were hurt by AA, instead of blaming AA for hurting others. How many people do we hurt by telling them AA helps everyone? How are you responsible for stories like mine, sending people like me to AA and telling them they'll hurt others if they tell them AA harmed them?

My comment in my last post:
"That was my whole point. I believe I also pointed out that everyone's different and so AA won't be for everyone, but to discount it across the board is a little extreme."

Your response:
"How many people do we hurt by telling them AA helps everyone?" --- I never said that and I certainly don't tell anyone that.

Like I mentioned to Mr. Peele when he replied to my first reply to your story, Smart Recovery and other options work also. Some people tell me that they don't like AA, but because they are religious they like Celebrate Recovery. Others will just go for Smart Recovery.

We're just going back and forth. I think we agree that people should have the option. Where we differ seems to be our opinions on AA, which is ok. Everyone is going to have their own opinion. You had a bad experience, which is very unfortunate and I am sorry that happened. Sadly, it's not the first bad experience I've heard and it won't be the last. Although yours is probably the worst experience I have heard. Like I said I have also heard some wonderful stories about AA.

When you say that people are going to say one thing to counselors and either not mean it or change their mind I can completely agree with that. I wasn't born yesterday. However, I have gone to meetings and had people tell me this when they knew nothing about me, including that I am a counselor. I've also heard other accounts from other times and places where I was not in the counselor role. Addiction runs in my family, so I have a little history there as well.

"I assumed education meant current information, not 1939's definition of alcoholism by AA, but decades' of information. You have a master's degree which I assume you did not earn by listening to stories all day."

We can read the facts all day about what addiction leads to. We can look at the DSM's (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) criteria for Alcohol Use Disorder- what used to be Alcohol Dependence. But when a person hears another person's real account of what they have been through because of their addiction that tends to speak volumes in comparison. When someone says "I don't know about you, but this helped me to stay sober." That can speak volumes. Education is not always about the books. That's why I had to do years of internship actually working with people. The education of facts, statistics and all that comes in the educational portion of the treatment program. They can compliment each other whether the person chooses to go to AA, NA, Celebrate Recovery, or Smart Recovery. They also get to hear peoples stories in our treatment program, but just in a different way.

I feel like I was just trying to express in the beginning that while you sadly had a bad experience, it has been helpful to others. Both parties are welcome to share their experiences and opinions. Hence my writing about mine. I just don't want to discourage people from any option of support or help they are considering and at the same time encourage people to try the next option if the first doesn't work.

Previously you wrote: "Telling your story is one thing, but to label AA in the terms I've read from things you've written can be discouraging for those who might be considering it and and could possibly benefit." I can't tell you how many times I was told this. If someone had a negative reaction to heart medication, would you tell them if they said anything about it they might harm others who are considering it? I do want to discourage someone from taking or using anything that might harm them, exactly.

AA doesn't have to be the first option, either. Or the only one we measure other options by, this is a myopia-of-AA kind of thinking.

So I won't discount you- you won't discount me. That's fair. I simply reversed your aforementioned quote, to show you that it is unreasonable, and hurtful, to tell me or anyone that we are hurting someone by speaking against AA. I was hurt by AA, others should know that also. I was told that AA would help me, I considered it, and it hurt me. If I had been discouraged to attend AA, it may have helped me avoid all my horrible AA experiences.

After you assess a client, I imagine you already know if AA would be the right fit for a person. Possibly, with better assessments, we can avoid more bad experiences from AA. People who shouldn't be there won't be prescribed AA.

People are less likely to criticize AA during AA meetings. The NESARC data shows 75% of people recover without AA or rehab. AA facts are like this: "You can't unpickle a pickle." AA facts are: You're powerless unless you work AA's 12 Steps. AA sells AA. Accounts of drinking in AA I've heard are 1.) usually highly exaggerated and 2.) the worse your drinking story is the more applause you get. Not to mention- all AA stories end with "I'm better today because I found AA." These are infomercials and testimonials to sell AA to people.

I just came across your wonderful article - thank you for being so brace to write this. I'm so sorry for your experience with your home life.

I have over a year of sobriety. My drinking became a problem when I was in my early 40s. I'm 55. Two untimely deaths - 3 years ago - resulted in my not being able to quit drinking. Through a wonderful therapist and naltrexone - I quit.

AA meetings were helpful at the beginning. However, everything you have said - I agree. The counselor - in her comment above yours - is proof almost anyone can get a degree. Very scary.

Fortunately, you've disguised your name. You and the state of NC happen to be in violation of your clients' civil rights, and are collectively and personally liable for damages. This is the same type of violation as if you harassed a gay man or refused service to an African American.

See Hazle v. Crofoot, 2013. The Ninth Circuit ruled that, as a matter of law, the jury was required to award Hazle (an atheist forced to chose between AA and imprisonment) monetary damages to compensate him for the violation of his constitutional rights and wrongful imprisonment.

Please get a tee-shirt, brag to your children, and place on your tombstone:

Mr. Peele- You are right, I did leave out the option that we give people to create more freedom of choice when it comes to the religion aspect. SMART RECOVERY. Smart Recovery is also a wonderful resource that some of my clients choose to do instead or sometimes in combination with AA. I'm sure you are aware of this, but just in case you or any other readers aren't:

"Humanists and other atheists and agnostics suffering from addiction now have more modern alternatives. Rather than join a group that actively blocks membership by those without a belief in God, nontheists can seek out other programs that not only accept them, but empower them to overcome addiction by helping develop tools and encouraging mutual support among members. SMART Recovery (Self Management And Recovery Training) is a program that pioneered an individualistic approach, free from proselytization and ethical requirements for people of any or no religious background."http://americanhumanist.org/HNN/details/2011-07-modernizing-secular-addiction-recovery

Leaving this out in my initial response was an oversight and I do feel that Smart Recovery is great option for people who dislike or disagree with the principles of AA. However, I do stand by my confidence in AA. After all it has helped a lot of people.

Before I wrap it up I have to comment about your last statement:

"Please get a tee-shirt, brag to your children, and place on your tombstone:

As someone who has dedicated my life to helping people and has poured my heart and soul into the field of addiction I am speechless at this comment. And as someone with your knowledge I would think you would ask a question or two before flying off the handle to trash talk someone. Isn't that effective communication 101? "So, anonymous, you don't offer any alternatives to these meetings you've listed?" Then, I would have said, pretty much the same as I started off this reply. Hey- Mr. Peele, as a matter of fact, you are right. What an oversight! Thank you for pointing that out. While, I am appalled at this incident because that was a pretty terrible thing you said, I understand that we are all human.

"Substance Abuse Counselor"... Or as commonly known as " Dangerous Quack".... AA and it's like do NOTHING to empower anyone... Quite the opposite, Based on lies and started by Two Losers... Only now that we have information readily avalable can we hear and Assess the stories of perhaps tens of thousands who have been damaged, abused, misguided or even lost a loved one to AA or any 12 step ..... DON'T keep going back!!! Find real help.

Don't you have an ethical and professional obligation as a mental health provider to respect the right of an individual to tell their own story without stigmatizing it or labeling it. I'd be curious as to where you were credentialed because from where I see it your not acting like any mental health professional I have ever met. While the grammar in your last sentence obscures your meaning, it sounds like your blaming the victim and defending a hidden agenda with some possible transference issues that you haven't worked out yet. Try reading Gabor Mate's book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts", and familiarize yourself with a wider treatment spectrum and model of care, if your who you claim to be your ethically obligated to expand your education and your viewpoint.

This is a crystal clear example of the problems with AA and 12-step based addiction treatment. To blame the addict. So, a reasoned and contemplative analysis of her experience is not enough substantiation that AA harmed her? Blaming her "thinking"? That's the main problem with AA. People aren't allowed to have independent thoughts or feelings. If they do, it's "stinkin' thinkin'" or "alcoholic thinking". If AA doesn't work...it's their fault. Not AA's. Honestly, it's disturbing that any of this is considered a legitimate treatment for a medical issue in the 21st century. And it is, quite frankly, dangerous.

Her experience is not unique to her. AA is not science or fact based and people all over the country are now reporting being harmed in and by AA. There's no accountability in the program at all. I got victim blamed too.

Darling you are not alone I have a book to write and at 42 - i am facing aa and jail and elder abuse powerlessness is a lie but blaming the victim is our world I have three kids and a narcissistic mother but I'm a college grad who am now - though facing deprogram mind jail and relapse am writing a book on the cult of aa -- for the first time in 20 years I know that transcending abuse was doable but facing court ordered victim blaming was intolerable alas I am free again though scared - but my kids and the world need us to not only survive but live - bless you you are now and always will be perfect -,, our forgetting that is how we fall

I had very similar experiences in AA. When I first started going, I thought it was helpful to be around people who drank like I did. Before long, though, I started losing the good things about who I was. I was sidetracked--in a very unhealthy way. After a while, I didn't like the meetings at all. I felt like I was being forced to let go of the core of who I really was. I started reading about other approaches and finally, after all these years, I have my "self" back. I know who I am and how and why my addictions began. It took a long, long time to get where I am now. Oh, how I wish the newer approaches to dealing with addiction were available in 1979, when I first started seriously trying to deal with my problems! I cringe at the thought of going to another AA meeting!

I thought the same thing when I first attended AA I could share my drinking stories and not be judged. But, come to think about it, I could share the same drinking stories at a bar and not be judged either. And I'm being serious when I type that. I was told to attend AA to get support from people who've had similar problems. But, the support came with conditions--- I had to work the steps and believe in ideas, beliefs and value systems that I disagreed with. I could not give myself completely to their "complicated" program.

I sincerely appreciate reading your comment and understand how it feels to have yourself back. Thank you so much for reading this.

Thank you Juliet and Stanton for getting this firsthand account about how harmful AA is to vulnerable people that have already been been abused in life prior to coming to a 12 step program. What is very disturbing is AA and NA and other 12 step programs have no safety guidelines in place. Complaints fall on deaf ears at AA and NA headquarters. I know firsthand because I have contacted them myself.Also the fact that Juliet and others are mandated by our Court system is unconstitutional and needs to stop.

It does not help that AA and NA are both guilty of telling people to go off their meds when many many are taking them for depression, bi-polar and schizophrenia. Even though AA does not officially support this practice, they have acknowledged that it is prevalent and that it has literally cost lives by people committing suicide after stopping their meds at the advice and pressure of sponsors and other fellow 12 step members. AA and NA does nothing to stop this.

The horrible fact is I had to get a 3rd DUI 'after' being sent to rehab and AA years before. And I was still court ordered to 12 Step rehab. At that point, even I knew something was wrong with both of us- the system and myself. I wasn't getting the right help, even though I was begging for help. My psychologist suggested an emotional behavioral cognitive therapy group (ran by a professional doctor) and my probation officer rejected it because it didn't specifically address "addiction."

AA rejects all non-current AA practices. I've tried e-mailing them at any address I could find. Even the literature committee. Same excuses every time. "The majority of AA members don't want any changes," line of thought. Very heartbreaking trying to get anything to happen with the organization at every level.

Juliet, great read with very interesting insight into the narcissistic nature of Alcoholics Anonymous, and how it relates to other forms of abuse. The things AA members said to you reminded me of my experience, and the mental anguish I felt as a result. What baffles me the most about AA is the members who defend the "program" as if it is the greatest thing ever, saving countless lives, and keeping people sober. Especially when just the opposite it true. More people stay sober on their own, and countless lives have been lost as a result of AA and their habits of doing major disservices to people, like telling people to get off their meds. I came across this criminal advice by many people in AA, and it caused me to believe I didn't need my meds if I worked an "honest program." What utter nonsense, but just one of the many dangers of belonging to the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Thank you for your comment. I never could understand how so many people I met in AA, from different cities, could have such similar angry responses to my criticisms of AA. They do "defend the 'program'" no matter what the argument may be. I was told to stick with the women, but the women I met weren't offended with the Big Book's first 164 pages which ignored female alcoholics. (The first 164 pages are the textbook on how to work AA)... I did not find strong women who respected themselves enough to stand up to such extreme sexism- especially since everyone was expected to read the same book. (Chapter 8 is titled "To Wives")

That sexist element of AA bothered me because I am a woman, but the apathetic reactions from members hurt me even more. They do have a pamphlet about medications now, but the old timers resist change and probably don't order those brochures to have on hand at meetings.

I don't see how having non 12 Step options for meetings would cause any more harm than just the 12 Step model alone. Especially because treatment facilities and AA meetings are linked and are not separate. From what I know (and anyone can correct if I'm wrong) states fund the costs of paying for treatment if people cannot afford it- but it must include the 12 Step model or it will not be considered addiction treatment. AA cannot deny the fact they benefit from the current system- it is a monopoly for them!

Awesome video and straight to the point. "God blessed us with this disease"!!! I would wonder if I was in the Twilight Zone at these meetings hearing them talk like that. (Let alone, hearing them say I was one of them--- I was in no way, shape or form like them.) The faith of many AA members makes them unable to believe anything else can work. That's almost a good trait compared to their incessant need to "carry the message," yet that is a requirement of the 12th Step so they "must."

For AA being "exploitative" I think most people often overlook, or choose to downplay, the extent of sexism in AA's literature. Although women can be leaders in AA, they surely don't think updating the literature is of any importance. No matter how many times the word "he/him/his/wife" appear in the Big Book a woman must never complain. "If it ain't broke don't fix it," I've been told by members. Or even, "I've never heard other women complain, so why are you?"

In short, AA culture protects abuse of sex power, and not just with men having power over women.

But my "wow" moment in your video comes in with how they imagine others are jealous of AA. I think if your wife is angry you're never home because you're constantly at AA that isn't jealousy. They're more than likely worried there's something is wrong with you!

Bill W. has been described as a narcissist. To the point he'd attempt to write the Big Book by himself- including a story about himself. Also, the Big Book lies to its reader. The chapter "To Wives" was not written by anyone's wife or wives- it was written by Bill W. "An organization designed by narcissists for narcissists." It explains all the mild mannered, meek people in the rooms who are literally mentally and physically afraid to leave AA because narcissistic members are bullies.

Definitely AA's universally accepted definition of an alcoholic is a narcissist who drinks too much. I'm with you 100% in this video.

Your suffering was not necessary. The system is rigged right now and needs to be changed so that people can get the recovery help that will actually work for them, personally, rather than be told that if AA doesn't work for them that it is their fault and they are doomed. Our society needs to wake up from its Puritanical delusions and look to actual, proven methods of help.

I agree. The problem with being court ordered to treatment is that the state has a definition of what "treatment" is--- and I believe Ohio mandates that treatment includes the 12 steps or it's not addiction treatment. I should not have been given the "AA" prescription 3 times. I shouldn't have had to defy the system to get the right kind of treatment I needed. Also, I did not find much benefit talking about alcohol every week with other people. It was like trying to go on a diet but being forced to talk about cake and ice cream at meetings. I didn't plan to attend meetings forever and make "avoiding alcohol" the focus of my existence.

Whether court ordered or not, there need to be options available that the states will fund as "treatment." The people truly hurt by the government's role in funding treatment are those who can't afford to pay for it. And like I said, Ohio will pay the courts to send people like myself to 12 Step treatment. Which would also be a church & state issue- something my rehab counselors did not want to get into a discussion with me about.

So you did have rehab counselors... Which means there was counseling and not just AA. AA is meant to be a part of treatment not treatment itself. Substance abuse or addiction treatment is made up of evidence based approaches like cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing, and other effective models. Some of these are combined for what is helpful to each individual client. There is no one model that will help everyone because we are all so different.

it speaks of great courage, survival skills and resilience facing a messed-up "Recover" system.

I hope you keep doing well and you will be ruthless and selfish towards your recovery. I am sorry about your mother and her sudden passing. She is at peace, you are still dealing. Maybe you feel you were robbed of a chance of getting closure, or getting real love from her. Just don’t.

As a child of a narcissist, hanging on to the magical thinking that they are going to change and love you the way you want or need to be loved is second nature. But, it is magical thinking.

All you can do is really feel the emptiness and loneliness of your childhood, work through those feelings with adult wisdom and refuse any avoidance remedies to escape them. Many people do not want to be transported back to a time where they were vulnerable and powerless and prefer the blinded forgiveness without understanding how a parent came to be abusive. They require you to forgive your parents before any “ progress” can be made, when it’s total bullcrap. Accepting that your parents could not meet your needs ( probably because their own parents did not meet theirs either), letting go of the Good mummy / Bad child fantasy and seeking your needs to be met in appropriate and mature ways is better than forgiveness.

Like Victoria Secunda said in her book, When you and your mother can't be friends:

" To be a mature adult is to accept the good and bad in your mother and in yourself. It requires resolving the Bad Mummy in your head, in your memories, in your self-destructive coping mechanisms, so you that you can have a life of hope on your own terms.”

Thank you so much for your comment and feedback. I recognize I had a lot of "magical thinking," even in AA where I thought I could fix AA. I was trying to fix the same qualities in AA I thought were wrong with my mom. It became too much for me to keep going to meetings and feeling the same strong, upsetting emotions.

I aim to continue to move forward and past the hurt. There is no perfect situation, but I feel better equipped to deal with daily situations now than when I was attending AA.

Hi Julie,
I can relate to so much of your story. I also have a mother who I've just learned has a PD. I truly believe that is part of why AA was so horrible for me. I spent my life as my Mother's scapegoat, and then AA wanted me to just spend more time thinking about my responsibility in things. I was taught as a toddler to see how I was responsible for every bad thing happened, whether I was or not. I didn't need a 4th step to do this, I was programmed for it since birth.

And like you, the worst was my Mother's involvement in the program. She joined alanon, and learned all about how she could now shame me mercilessly over my drinking. Again, like she needed another way to do that, it's all she ever did my whole life.

I stopped drinking several years ago, thru sheer willpower and refusing to go to AA anymore. It wasn't until I read Peele's blog, and discovered the work of Lance Dodes, that I finally feel free from the idea of a lifelong disease. I truly believe my problematic drinking was the result of the horrible life situation I was in at the time.

I am finally letting the anger I had towards AA go. I have spent the last several years just loathing the program, and speaking out against it to everyone I could. Now, I am letting stronger people, like Stanton Peele, fight this battle in the media. I hope that more people will learn that there is an alternative.

I hope that one day the 12 steppers will respect all ways of getting sober as valid, and stop accusing me of living in denial because I don't choose to sentence myself to a lifetime of meetings in a church basement. Tolerance for all of us who have struggled with the same issues.

I can relate to "letting the anger" go towards AA. It's the grief process. I feel your comment shows you're able to speak about your experiences in AA now with less anger and more insight. I hope more people do speak out for alternative, valid ways to recover. AA is a monopoly.

PD people plant very strong impressions in our minds. Like our mothers did to us. I remember how AA reminded me of her telling me about "unconditional love," and how she would love me "no matter what,"-- of course, there were many conditions and sometimes I didn't know what they were. The rules changed and contradicted each other too much for me to keep up with. Likewise, in AA, I was told the only requirement was "a desire to stop drinking," but that wasn't true. The "suggested steps" were mandatory. It bothered me that the word "suggested" was used when it wasn't a suggestion.

Repeatedly, I was told AA was a support group by my probation officer or treatment specialists. A support group, however, welcomes the sharing and exchange of new ideas. In AA, I couldn't ask the group to stop reciting the "Lord's Prayer" because it was the tradition to do so. Support from others was dependent on my "willingness" to be "open minded" only to AA and working the steps. To get others' support in AA there were conditions.

Tolerance for me is knowing if someone in AA doesn't want to discuss my ideas with me, then I know I need to walk away. I've opened up my world to discuss this topic with people outside of AA. I don't feel abuse is automatically connected to addiction. I couldn't go to AA and talk about alcohol 24/7 and ignore my real problems. I am baffled AA is considered the best support group for anyone with a drinking problem.

In the age of the Internet, the professionals all have access to real life stories that show AA has hurt and harmed a lot of people. This cannot be ignored any longer. I really appreciate your comment. I can relate to every part of it you wrote.

I apologize, but I don't understand your comment. The AA Traditions don't mention "basher" or "hater" at all. Also, I do not believe the AA 12 Steps help everyone. Only a certain personality type could benefit from practicing taking negative self-inventories and listing one's sins/ defects on a daily basis. I believe the 12 Steps clearly benefit narcissists and people who generally lack morals and a conscience. People who abuse alcohol in their lifetimes have a wide range of personality traits, life experiences, and family backgrounds.

The outlined program of the 12 Steps are designed to deflate an exaggerated ego (i.e. grandiosity/ sense of self-importance). They deflate self-esteem and make one "humble" so they aren't "playing God." The point is that the person working the steps admit they are powerless, and that is the main point.

In addition, NPD sufferers lack a sense of right & wrong. The steps are also designed to correct this malfunction. As though all alcoholics/ addicts/ substances abusers have no conscience. That is bogus science. The majority of people I've met in recovery have an enormous conscience, they are often overly sensitive in fact. AA folks will call this low self-esteem issue is the "ego in reverse" just to keep people towing the line. However, for people with very low self-esteem the steps keep them down, if they are working them correctly.

There is not one mention in the 12 Steps of empowerment and assertiveness or listing good qualities and traits and talents. It's a very depressing, demoralizing process.

I was heading to relapse if i didnt change something. Thats disease as I understand. Thats why I had no problem calling it a disease - I was client in medical institutions. On the other hand I had no problem to think that "I WAS an alcoholic" two years later.

my first 9o days in aa
I had been around aa w/o sponsors, steps and spirituality early this century. It was nearly imposible to talk about the steps. These people were meeting-makers. I called them "zero-steppers". The stinkin-thinkin'-website says: "Zero-stepping – the act of talking someone out of going to AA in the first place. (see Fourteenth-stepping) (Martha)"

my second 90 days
The outlined steps in the literature FE "alcoholivs anonymous", "twelve steps and twelve traditions", "the best of grapevine", and "the best of grapevine vol 2" seemed somehow contradictory and make little sence.

My third 90 days
my 8 hours step-workshop at an "aabacktobasic"-meeting was aspecific view on the steps as Wallace P and his followers sees it.

My fourth 90 days
was running away from aabacktobasics and its followers. I was told not to speak about that by cult-oldtimers "or else"... WTF "or else"?

My fifth 90 days
I researched on aa in the USA/Canada to improve the aa that i found to be to much culty and ineffective.
I was shocked about
- mandation
- no information about the Vaillant scandal (1983), IE the 29% death rate.
- the treatment of aa-critics, ESP some web-sites and blogs

Unlike you and steppers of all sort Im not a cultist as such. I may have other and even more serious problems, though:

"However, for people with very low self-esteem the steps keep them down, if they are working them correctly."

Not true for the younger half of Vaillant's clinical sample, especially the stunning low death rate (10%), and jobs and homes.

I admittedly do not know much about George Valliant, except that he is a past Class A trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous. As a general rule, I don't trust statistics presented by someone who is biased towards or against AA. The fact that AA can't keep their own success statistics alone makes it clear that right now- currently- we do not have an answer to the question: How effective is AA?

We do know that not all alcoholics/addicts will ever enter AA and that they can and do recover. Not sure what this 10% death rate from AA for young people is that you cited but would love it if you provided a link. I was 25 when I wrapped up two straight years of AA and did not have a job or a home of my own. I guess if you count "having a place to live" or "raising kids" then I could be in that category.

Also, I try to avoid labeling AA a "cult" but that depends on how the individual in the program perceives AA. The steps instruct prayer, which is ritualistic just like religions are. And members who take the steps literally definitely treat the steps as the anecdote against drinking, therefore those who don't work the steps are told they're doomed to drink and die. That would make a lot of people question if AA is a cult. Especially when one is told they can never leave the organization, for the rest of their lives.

I have never considered myself a stepper. At least, not with a straight face. I never couldn't tolerate lying about how I felt in AA. I feel better speaking the truth. One has to question who is studying AA members and what their motives are, because it is impossible to survey everyone who has been affected by AA. I'll look into Vaillant again some more. But I'm pretty confident that he had his own agenda that was different than my own.

The fact that Vaillant was presented with a Jellinek award is a little funny because Jellinek was asked by Yale to refute his own fraudulent studies. Yet, here we are, still unable to believe that AA has been interfering, tampering with, and inventing the qualities of what "alcoholism" is since the day AA was born.

P.S. I believe Vaillant's 1983 study only included males. That is very inconclusive for women in the 21st century, isn't it?

Sad to say that I have a strong dislike for the meeting I attend,it helps to share,eases the pain but the room seems to be dominated by one very sick individual who is so filthy mouthed,says is great to go after the meeting & gossip the hell out of other individuals he has taken a fancy to dislike,when he is not present he makes sure to get the daily gossips from other members,specially newcomers,just thrives on making other members miserable,ever heard of diarrea of the mouth?He is just a very bad deseased person,have decided to walk out of the rooms everytime he is present as is just a total loser.This seriously puts me so off AA.

Just to add my quick two cents: I found 12 Step programs to be disempowering, outdated, and far too religious for my taste. I learned about the SMART Recovery program, based in the rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT) developed by Dr. Albert Ellis, and have happy and successful there for five sober years. (www.smartrecovery.org)

The support groups are led mostly by peers, not medical professionals (though some are), and are always free of charge (most locations will accept donations). You don't need to register for a meeting ahead of time, just show up.

There is also a robust web-based community that includes online meetings, a forum with message boards, and extensive resources you can use to address just about any crisis.

SMART Recovery is my addiction recovery program of choice (5 year sober on September 21, 2014). Good thoughts to you all!

American treatment centers won't even instruct clients about SMART; They are usually partially government funded also. The problem is that anyone going through treatment is only introduced to the AA organization. Unless they know of alternatives beforehand, it is unlikely any treatment professional will tell them about SMART or SOS or anything else.

So the problem isn't that SMART doesn't work-- it does. A lot of other ways to recover work. The problem is that the "Minnesota method" of the 12 Steps is the only acceptable treatment paid for by insurance companies and the government as specialized "addiction services." Regular emotional cognitive behavioral therapy or anger management or counseling (etc.) is not covered as "addiction services." In order to become a drug counselor one must work within the framework of the law and what they are obligated to teach.

I'm bothered that a group that is based on so much scientific evidence and created by an actual doctor is overlooked & ignored by the US treatment world. You'd think they'd welcome new developments in their specialty of work! AA was developed by greedy opportunists who pushed their distorted-religious solution onto the masses and paid their way into the medical community and government.

Just to add my quick two cents: I found 12 Step programs to be disempowering, outdated, and far too religious for my taste. I learned about the SMART Recovery program, based in the rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT) developed by Dr. Albert Ellis, and have happy and successful there for five sober years. (www.smartrecovery.org)

The support groups are led mostly by peers, not medical professionals (though some are), and are always free of charge (most locations will accept donations). You don't need to register for a meeting ahead of time, just show up.

There is also a robust web-based community that includes online meetings, a forum with message boards, and extensive resources you can use to address just about any crisis.

SMART Recovery I my program of choice and in September 2014 I will celebrate five years sober. My thoughts are with you all thus evening.