23:00 <agd5f> hi
23:00 <+alanc> good afternoon
23:00 <+alanc> hopefully everyone got today's reminder e-mail in time to actually pull off a meeting, unlike last time
23:01 <+anholt_> I got it this time
23:01 <+alanc> I got mine too, without having to poke tollef to kick mailman this week
23:03 <+alanc> so who else is here today and hasn't spoken up? emmes? keithp? stukreit? Bart_Massey?
23:03 <+Bart_Massey> Howdy!
23:03 <+Bart_Massey> Just got here a sec ago.
23:03 <+alanc> yeah, I saw the join
23:04 <+emmes> hey
23:04 <+alanc> so far I have 4 board members actually around - guess I'll quickly run down the hall to poke stuart
23:04 <keithp> afternoon!
23:04 <+emmes> I'm on the road, I might lag a bit, or drop off in between
23:04 <stukreit> hi!
23:05 <+alanc> okay, looks like that's everyone but mherrb
23:05 <stukreit> (poked)
23:05 <+alanc> first agenda item I had was XDC wrapup
23:05 <+alanc> obviously big thanks to Michael for putting it all together
23:06 <+alanc> stukreit: anything you want to report about XDC expenses/payments?
23:06 <stukreit> I guess I should write up the totals. Sorry, I don't have them today
23:06 <+Bart_Massey> Indeed! Michael went through more process than I can remember us ever having, and handled it beautifully
23:06 <stukreit> I paid off all but one expense request.
23:07 <+alanc> some of that process we need to get used to for the sake of our IRS conformance though
23:08 <stukreit> yeah, bulging files
23:09 <+alanc> and we have two worthwhile proposals to start thinking about for next year (Dublin & Nuremberg)
23:09 <+Bart_Massey> alanc: Probably. But it will be hard to find someone willing to do what Michael did in 2012 :-)
23:09 <+Bart_Massey> That's good news! I guess I missed it somehow.
23:09 <+alanc> Dave Airlie mailed the board about Dublin a month or so ago, and Luc V. presented about Nuremberg during a empty slot at XDC
23:10 <+alanc> the advantage of the Nuremberg proposal is it's at least 3 people spreading the organizational load (Luc, Egbert, & emmes)
23:11 <+Bart_Massey> And they are known-good organizationally. Also, we were just in Edinburgh not too long ago, no?
23:12 <+Bart_Massey> Maybe spreading things around a bit more is better?
23:12 <+alanc> France was 2010, so Edinburgh would have been 2008
23:12 <+Bart_Massey> That was a long time ago. Yow.
23:13 <+emmes> We also might have the advantage of getting a free conference room, either sponsored by SuSE, or in the local university. but we haven't explored all options yet :-]
23:13 <+alanc> in any case, we have a little time to decide on next year's plan
23:13 <+alanc> anything else XDC related to discuss today?
23:13 <+Bart_Massey> Yeah, doesn't have to be this month at least. But I'd like to give a little more lead time than in 2011 just for grins...
23:14 <+alanc> the next agenda item I had was kicking the ass of the election committee to remind them it's time to start planning the election calendar
23:14 <+alanc> Since that would be the most recently elected set of board members, this year's election committee is alanc, anholt_, Bart_Massey & stukreit
23:15 <stukreit> oh loverly
23:15 <+alanc> though I guess the first step is making sure the election committee mailing list points to us, so we can start working on that by e-mail
23:15 <agd5f> The election wiki on the bod wiki is pretty good. I updated it last year
23:15 <+alanc> yes, it walked us through it pretty well last time I was on the committee
23:16 <+emmes> I can agree on that. thanks for working on it, Alex!
23:16 <stukreit> I could take a look at that next week (kinda swamped for next 5 days)
23:16 <agd5f> stukreit: looks like you are stepping up ;)
23:17 <+alanc> well, if you hadn't taken the roof off your house just before the rain started, it might be less swampy
23:17 <+alanc> in any case, I think we can consider the election committee reminded and I'll try to help out stuart as well next week getting that going
23:18 <+alanc> so the last agenda item I had was the EVoC request
23:18 <stukreit> ok. bring a crowbar and work gloves
23:18 <+Bart_Massey> Am I still the EVoC lead, or did I manage to pawn that off on someone?
23:19 <agd5f> looked good to me. maybe we can actually do an EVoC
23:19 <+alanc> we discussed trying to pawn that off on marcoz (Matt Dew) at one point, but there were no actual proposals at that time so I think we just forgot before we ever asked him about it
23:20 <marcoz> alanc: say whaa?
23:20 <+Bart_Massey> 'scool. But I should pay more attention in that case. :-)
23:20 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: You want to be point-of-contact for the Endless Vacation of Code program?
23:20 <+Bart_Massey> It's not a very hard job; you just have to answer some emails in a timely fashion.
23:20 <+Bart_Massey> More than I can manage, though. :-)
23:20 <marcoz> what else is involved ?
23:20 <+alanc> based on the similarity in email addresses and irc nicks, I assume curro is our applicant?
23:21 <curro> yeah that's me
23:21 <curro> so i'm i the first person that has ever requested you an evoc?
23:21 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: Just make sure that the Board is paying attention and eventually does something with each proposal
23:21 <+Bart_Massey> curro: No, but we get at most a couple of requests a year.
23:21 <+Bart_Massey> Usually we have to turn them down for some reason.
23:22 <+Bart_Massey> curro: You are still a student of some sort, correct?
23:22 <curro> Bart_Massey: yes.
23:22 <+alanc> I think only one proposal made it as far as getting approved, and then the student got a fulltime job and dropped out
23:22 <agd5f> we actually did a few the year we didn't get any gsoc slots I think, but I don't think anyone finished
23:22 <marcoz> Bart_Massey: so I just have to run people down an make sure no student gets dropped through the cracks?
23:22 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: Yep
23:22 <+alanc> marcoz: much like you were already doing unofficially earlier this year 8-)
23:23 <+Bart_Massey> After reviewing that thread, the only question I have is do we have a mentor for curro?
23:23 <marcoz> alanc: if that's what's involved, then I could probably do that.
23:23 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: You are awesome as always
23:24 * marcoz blushing.
23:24 <+alanc> I don't know enough about the technical details of OpenCL & Gallium to comment much on that, but the proposal did look like he'd spent time understanding the problem and coming up with a plan of attack
23:24 <curro> Bart_Massey: Ben Skeggs (darktama) stepped up to do it, but i'm not sure he's eligible for the task
23:24 <+Bart_Massey> If someone is willing to be the "official" mentor POC for curro, I'm strongly +1
23:24 <agd5f> Bart_Massey: yes. Ben said he would. and I think Tom said he could help too
23:24 <+Bart_Massey> Why wouldn't Ben be eligible?
23:24 <curro> just wondering :)
23:24 <+Bart_Massey> AFAIK anybody the Board trusts is fine.
23:25 <+Bart_Massey> I only want a singular mentor because we need a "responsible party". The mentor can share the work as widely as desired.
23:25 <+Bart_Massey> I would strongly suggest that we insist that the mentor become a member of the X.Org Foundation, though. :-)
23:25 <+alanc> the plan said 4 months - would we be planning on basically matching the GSoC rates/timeline? ($5000 total, half at midterms, half at final, subject to mentor signoff that work has been done)
23:26 <tstellar> Yeah, I could help.
23:26 <+Bart_Massey> I would be much more comfortable if there was a way to break the work into two 2-month chunks.
23:26 <agd5f> anyone want to write up the requirements in the evoc wiki? We should actually document what we expect
23:26 <+Bart_Massey> 4 months is a long time to run without a final result.
23:27 <+anholt_> hey former elections committee: any of you have the mailman admin password saved and can update the list of members? or possibly store it on expo somewhere so I can handle it?
23:27 <+Bart_Massey> But if there's no sensible midpoint, then I'd say we need to pay a little more for 4 months than Google does for roughly 12 weeks.
23:28 <+Bart_Massey> And maybe we should break things into 3 or 4 payments instead of just 2.
23:29 <+anholt_> Bart_Massey: huh, neither of them are members currently :)
23:29 <agd5f> there are 4 items on the proposal. we could break it down per item
23:29 <+alanc> the last version of his proposal in my inbox seems to have a good midpoint " At this point the code could already be used as a working but
23:29 <+alanc> non-standard computing library." after steps 1 & 2, which are estimated at 7-8 weeks
23:29 <+Bart_Massey> agd5f: You mean general requirements for EVoC or for this specific project
23:29 <+Bart_Massey> alanc: perfect
23:29 <agd5f> Bart_Massey: general
23:29 <+Bart_Massey> I thought there was already an EVoC page. If not, I guess I should make it.
23:29 <marcoz> http://www.x.org/wiki/XorgEVoC
23:30 <+alanc> the remaining part is estimated at 5 weeks, so not exactly half way
23:30 <+Bart_Massey> alanc: Close enough. On reflection, I'm actually fine with a single project, but I want to see more frequent payment milestones than twice in 4 months.
23:30 <+alanc> but perhaps he hasn't yet learned the universal law of software scheduling yet ("The first 80% takes 80% of the planned time, the last 20% also takes 80% of the planned time.")
23:30 <agd5f> Bart_Massey: even something as simple as "aim for a 3-4 month project. $5000 total, half at midterms, half at final, subject to mentor signoff that work has been done"
23:30 <+Bart_Massey> So maybe the spot you suggested is one of those milestones.
23:31 <+Bart_Massey> agd5f: Fair enough. Working.
23:31 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: BTW, I'm putting the target for EVoC on your back. What email address should I use?
23:32 <marcoz> marcoz@osource.org
23:32 <+Bart_Massey> tx
23:32 <+alanc> there is a finer breakdown in the first half his plan of stage 1 (roughly 3 weeks) & stage 2 (roughly 4 weeks) if you wanted to break it down further
23:32 <marcoz> is one of the requirements at least _some_ programming ability, or comfort around compilers, command line, etc. ?
23:34 <agd5f> marcoz: student has to be able to accomplish what they set out to do. doesn't have to be programming per se (could be documentation,etc.), but I think most will be
23:34 <+Bart_Massey> alanc: Sounds perfect. Payment at stage 1, stage 2 and final
23:34 <marcoz> agd5f: so documentation could fall under EvoC? dang, I wish I knew that 7 months ago.
23:34 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: We'll help you evaluate students. I'll try to edit the reqs hints on the wiki right now, and folks can change it as they desire
23:35 <marcoz> Bart_Massey: whew, I was assuming that you guys would do the actual evalutions. I just the gopher. thanks for confirming.
23:35 <agd5f> I guess we could put the curro's proposal on the wiki as a current evoc project if we accept it
23:36 <+alanc> marcoz: I'd have been happy to see you do an evoc proposal for docs - it's not too late to turn down running the show to be a student participant...
23:36 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: The Board never actually discussed this, so chalk it up to Board fail. I'm actually fine with technical documentation for EVoC, but we'd have to think carefully about how it would work.
23:36 <+Bart_Massey> alanc: Not sure marcoz is still a student :-)
23:36 <+Bart_Massey> So are we ready to vote curro's proposal?
23:36 <marcoz> I'm not a student. I was just thinking that I was trying to get some schlep, I mean student, to help me with the docs. but GSoC doens't accept documentation.
23:37 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: Ahh. Yes, definitely look into this.
23:37 <+alanc> and in that case, we might ask you to evaluate, as one of the most knowledgable folks in that area currently
23:37 <marcoz> Bart_Massey: if documentation is ok for GSoC?
23:38 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: yes
23:38 <agd5f> I think google requires code
23:38 <marcoz> it is not. :( I looked into it.
23:38 <+alanc> google is pretty firm on that one
23:38 <marcoz> it has to be coding.
23:38 <+alanc> but EVoC can be whatever we want it to be
23:40 <+alanc> so we're almost ready to vote I think
23:40 <marcoz> ok, if I can find someone to work on docs for 4 months I'll let folks know.
23:40 <+Bart_Massey> cool
23:40 <+alanc> GSoC is $5000 for 12 weeks - are we expecting this to be a 16 week project and adjusting up accordingly?
23:41 <+Bart_Massey> imho yes
23:42 <+alanc> the Oct 4 mail had a schedule of 3 weeks + 4 weeks + 3 weeks + 2 weeks, which would be just 12
23:42 <+alanc> and I guess the question also goes to curro of how long he has to devote to this before the next semester of classes start for him
23:42 <agd5f> we should probably put some time/$ limit on it
23:43 <+Bart_Massey> agd5f: I think we need to set the whole thing up explicitly up front.
23:43 <+alanc> also curro: about when did you plan on doing this? I don't see a planned start or stop date in the mail
23:43 <agd5f> otherwise, it could be abused
23:43 <+Bart_Massey> I think the Google plan of having definite milestones up front and stopping paying the student unless they make them is fine.
23:44 <+Bart_Massey> I am confident the mentor will track this for us.
23:44 <agd5f> yeah, that should work
23:44 <+Bart_Massey> (OK, the Google plan of having the mentor verify that the whole thing is continuing to make progress/sense. It's OK if the mentor and student agree on different goals. But the milestone dates should be set in stone.)
23:44 <curro> alanc: i plan to start as soon as my proposal is accepted, and as i said i have 4 months from now that i'll be able to devote to it full-time
23:45 <+alanc> so approx Oct. 14 to Feb 14?
23:46 <curro> yes, that would work for me
23:46 <+Bart_Massey> alanc: I will block on the wiki edits until you finish... Maybe I won't have to do anything. :-)
23:46 <+alanc> oh oops, I was just fixing it to list Matt as X.Org member not Board member
23:47 <+Bart_Massey> Oh well. :-) Thanks.
23:47 * marcoz almost drunk with power.
23:47 <+Bart_Massey> LOL
23:47 <+alanc> done editing
23:47 <+Bart_Massey> tx
23:48 <+Bart_Massey> Anyway, I move that we accept curro's proposal, conditional on the mentor working out a payment schedule to our satisfaction.
23:49 <+alanc> $5000 / 12 weeks = 416.66 per week, so if we're assuming 16 weeks, it would scale to $6666.66
23:49 <marcheu> FWIW SoC is 4500/12 weeks
23:49 <marcoz> $500 goes to the organization
23:50 <+alanc> oh, then it makes a nice rounder $6000 for 16 weeks
23:50 <marcheu> marcoz: right, not to the student
23:50 <+alanc> for some reason I was remembering $5000 to student plus $500 to org/mentor
23:51 <+Bart_Massey> Anyway, I guess I will modify my proposal to reflect that we accept curro's proposal, with three payments of $2000, milestone dates to be determined by the mentor to our satisfaction.
23:51 <marcoz> "Google will provide a stipend of 5500 USD per accepted student developer, of which 5000 USD goes to the student and 500 USD goes to the mentoring organization."
23:51 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: Yeah, they upped their rate last year.
23:51 <marcheu> heh, I had no idea
23:51 <+Bart_Massey> Anyway, I think $6000 is a nice reasonable number. Anybody object?
23:51 <marcoz> http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/faqs#payments_work (for anyone interested)
23:52 <+alanc> $6000 sounds good to me
23:52 <+alanc> +1
23:52 <agd5f> +1
23:53 <stukreit> +1
23:54 <+alanc> keithp? anholt_? emmes?
23:54 <marcoz> is curro's proposal anywhere public?
23:55 <+alanc> not yet, just in board e-mail
23:55 <+Bart_Massey> marcoz: I think just on the Board list right now. Have him email you a copy.
23:55 <marcoz> Bart_Massey: will do. thx.
23:55 <marcoz> curro: can you email a copy to marcoz@osource.org?
23:57 <+emmes> sorry, dropped off. sounds good to me. +1
23:57 <+alanc> that's 5 so we have a majority
23:57 <+anholt_> sorry, turned around for conversation in the office. +1.
23:57 <+Bart_Massey> I realized too late that GSoC starts with an initial payment. This would be a better plan. Anybody object to 4 $1500 payments instead of 3 $2000 ones?
23:58 <agd5f> fine with me
23:58 <+Bart_Massey> It's not fair to curro to ask him not to eat for a month. :-)
23:58 <curro> marcoz: done
23:58 * curro is fine either way
23:59 <marcoz> curro: thx
23:59 <+alanc> anything else, or are we done for today as we come up on the hour?
23:59 <stukreit> hey, the hour is up.
23:59 <stukreit> move to adjourn
00:00 <+Bart_Massey> seconded
00:00 <agd5f> +1
00:00 <+Bart_Massey> Gratz curro!
00:00 <+Bart_Massey> Thanks for helping us out!
00:00 <+alanc> thanks for coming everyone, see you in two weeks