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Boss DD20 Vs. Damage Control Timeline

Well my Timeline is officially back, which means the world is welcome to start turning again. And with the official announcement of the new Timeline coming out, I figured it might be worth it to see how much better the Timeline really sounds than my current standby…the DD20.

The DD20 is probably the least cool delay pedal you can own. It says ‘Boss’ on it, which as anyone who’s anyone knows, means it can’t possibly sound good; it has no handpainted letters or cartoon characters making guitar puns out of regular words like ‘Echolution’, anywhere to be seen on it; it’s called the ‘Giga Delay’; it’s sold at Guitar Center; it’s still in production; you don’t know the builder’s first name and hence can’t say ‘Sven’s DD20′; and most importantly…and I mean most importantly…everyone has one. And the amount of tone decreases exponentially with each person that owns a version of any one guitar pedal.

And yet…it sounds…well, good. Really good. It has a ton of features, 5 presets, a bpm readout, and can be powered off of a PP2+. How many times have you seen someone on Gear Page (myself included…hehe) start a thread asking for all the delays with those exact features but ‘not the DD20!’ We guitarists are awesome. The main thing about this pedal is that it is currently one of only two multiple preset delay pedals on the market that does not digitize the dry signal. The other one? The Damage Control Timeline. The new Timeline will be the third, but it’s not out yet. The T-Rex Replica and the TC Vintage Delay don’t, but they don’t have presets. The Strymon Brigadier and El Capistan don’t, but they are only capable of 2 presets. The rest of them either do convert it to digital, or are still shrouded in mystery. (Which means they probably do.) So I figured we’d have a clash of the analog dry signal preset titans. Although, they are delay pedals, so the clash will be taking place on top a billowy cloud of ambience.

And these delays sounded so close at times that I went ahead and mic’d up my cab and recorded it ‘the right way’.

Shootout

Well…regardless of what I said in the video (and what I wore…sorry, it was hipster day…I also rode my bicycle down the middle of the street, drank tea with a name I didn’t understand but pretended I did, and wrote a song on the ukelele)…after listening back to it, the Timeline wins on the vast majority of settings. It is pretty spectacular. I think the DD20 holds its own, especially on its analog and tape settings, but there is a ‘spread’ to the Timeline that really seems to fill the room. And that multitap setting low in the mix…yikes. Amazing. I’ve tried so many delay pedals, and none of them have a spaciousness like that. Timefactor, SuperDelay, Hazarai, TC…can’t find it. Well, at least I can’t. I’m sure others can. But for me personally, so stoked the next Timeline version is coming out.

However, the DD20 still sounded very good. On a few of those settings, it was difficult for me to tell which was which; and on the analog setting, I may have actually preferred that the DD20 could get warmer and muddier. Of course, the Timeline was still ‘bigger’ sounding, but the DD20 might have had the upper hand right there. Might. The Timeline sounds so good that it’s difficult to hear any shortcomings. hehe But still, I really liked the analog setting on the DD20. So for the money and for how versatile it is, the DD20 for me is the ultimate sleeper delay pedal. The one that’s not cool enough to like, but sounds good enough to stay with if not perhaps beat, most of the others. And it keeps the dry signal analog…which helps your tone’s dynamics, weight, and feel so very much. And for what it’s worth, here’s a couple hidden settings on the DD20 which I keep hearing from folks that they didn’t know about them. If you already do, my apologies and just skip this part:

–While in modulation mode, hold the on/off switch. You can now use the time knob to set the modulation rate. While still holding the on/off switch, press the time knob. You can now use it to control the modulation depth.
–Holding the on/off switch also accesses settings in dual delay mode and in tape delay mode.
–If you hold the right switch while you power the pedal on, you can choose what you want an external pedal to control: tap, on/off, or presets.
–If you hold the left switch while you power the pedal on, you can choose output modes…including ones where you can get a 4db boost.
–If you hold ‘Write’ and ‘Select’ while you power the pedal on, you can select ‘Pedal Mode 3′, where you can leave the right switch as tap tempo, and cycle presets by pushing both the right and left footswitches at the same time.
–Holding both ‘Tap’ and ‘Tempo’ allows the backlight to stay on.
–Holding ‘Tap’ toggles between a bpm readout and a ms readout.

Just some more ways that the DD20 is a swiss army knife. A very toneful, inexpensive ($150 average price used), swiss army knife. That I love so much. That I will probably sell when the ‘Timeline: bpm readout!’ is released. Ah, tone. Both such wonderful pedals. And it’s not really fair to Boss that Strymon is obviously putting magic into their pedals. The coolest thing about this shootout is that neither pedal died. Instead, they were able to look past their differences, and realize that they would be much more powerful if they joined forces. Much like every movie ever.

I’m stuck between the DD20 and the DD-7 as well. I like the idea of having presets but also want the looper. Do you find that 23sec is long enough? also it seems like it would be hard to do swells and such while having to hold the switch down to overdub. with the DD-7 you have 40secs loop time and just tap in and out to overdub. have you compared the two? and do you know if the DD-7 also leaves your dry signal analog?

I don’t know why, but I was resistant to getting the DD-20 for a long time. Actually I do know why – I was in my post Boss phase. My effect pedals life has 3 main phases – Boss, Post-Boss, and now (Post-post-Boss?). Firstly – the only pedals I used were Boss – I collect about 20 of them. Then I shied away from them completely (except my TU-2) and now I have 3 on my board (DD-20, RV-5, AW-3). Boss may not always stand up against the boutique stuff, but they hold their own. Just yesterday I was testing a “new” amp – clean channel was ok, dirt channel was horrible (actually I think it’s got a problem) – so I wanted to try an overdrive pedal in front of the clean channel without plugging in my whole board – grabbed my trusty old Boss BD-2 and it totally rocked. That thing sounds awesome at higher volumes! Luckily my wife was out… lol

Anyway, back to the DD-20 – I finally got one a few months back and although it didn’t blow me away at first, I am growing to like it more and more. Still prefer my TC Nova delay for rhythmical U2 style stuff, but for other delays the DD-20 has a really solid tone which I am loving more the more I play with it.

… the next step in my tone evolution… I will be going stereo in the next few weeks. Looking forward to trying the DD-20 (and my other pedals) in stereo… as long as I can convince the sound guys at church to co-operate.

Karl, you are not doing the “boutique” market a favor by continually proving that the quality gap is smaller than we make it out to be … you will be soon excommunicated from any, if not all, online gear community for doing this!

Gtr1ab, Jon, & Brandon on the DD7–as far as I know, the DD7 does not convert your dry signal; I just re-researched it, and it appears that the DD3, DD20, and DD7 do not convert the dry signal to digital.

The DD7 does sound very good, and you lose a couple features (presets) and gain a smaller pedal a better looper. Yes, it is extremely annoying to have to hold the switch down to overdub on the DD20. 23 seconds is fine, but having to swell in with my volume knob means a lost any ‘strumming attack’ swells. But you get that invaluable bpm readout, as well as presets. To be honest, the DD20 has been around for a few years, and I keep hoping they will produce an updated one (DD30, or what-not), with a more functional looper and perhaps a couple added features. I know it’s one of their standby’s, but they updated the TU2 for almost no reason. haha I’d love to see a new DD20 with the DD7 looper.

Jared–the magic is real. hehe And ya, I finally jumped on the TOMS bandwagon. I thought they were too trendy for years, and then finally read up on them and was like, Well I stand corrected. That’s pretty cool what they do.

Ben G–wow, that’s a killer deal! I did get one a few years ago for $100; it was quite beat up, but still worked great!

Baggas–same here! When I’m in that part of the journey, it’s hard to get my ears to overcome my eyes. hehe You’re right, they hold their own, even if some of the boutique-y stuff sounds better at times.

And I hear ya on stereo! The hardest part is getting the sound guys on board. hehe

Brandon–very cool. Ya, I’m still not quite understanding digital delays without tap tempo. Seems like an easy added feature these days, especially that now we’ve got what, 4 or 5 analog ones with it? But stoked you’re diggin’ the sound!

Rhoy–haha I know! And then I won’t be able to discuss directional cables at Gear Page anymore. hehehe And then there’s ‘stupid’ pedals like the Timeline that bring me back and make me say, ‘Yep…even if some Boss pedals are close…sometimes boutique is just better.’ haha

I may start looking for a DD20. I like the DD7 I have, but without presets I put it on simple analog delay before our set and that’s where it has to stay. I would barely have time to click a different preset between songs, much less reach down and tweak a pedal.
I tap in the tempo for the first song and don’t touch that again either. Ah the joys of being the leader.

Ah, I totally hear ya, brother. I usually run a click while I lead, so I set the bpm into the presets of the DD20 and just click through. It really helps to be able to focus on leading rather than tapping. haha But if I have to tap, it helps to have an external tap pedal so that I don’t have to hold the preset button for 2 seconds and then tap. Do you have an external for your DD7?

Props to you for shirking guitar sound though, in order to sing and lead better. That took me so long to learn. hehehe Guitarist at heart.

Yes I have the standard Boss tap pedal for my DD7. The other thing I need to learn is not to introduce so many new songs. Seems we often “learn” a lesson — like how our people sing and worship much better if they know the songs — then hear new songs and are so captivated by them we start rolling them into our sets too quickly. Deep down I know the joy of seeing people participate will vastly outweigh any “tiresome” effect I may have about older songs.

We use a pre-service/”walk-in” song so I need to just put new songs there for a while, keeping the main set in the “known” category.
I told my team and Pastor I’m going to buy them baseball bats with my name on them, so they can keep me in line.

I must say it since no one else has… the Eventide Timefactor is waaay better in every way than the DD20. Every update they release, the pedal gets exponentially better. With the V3 update the vintage and tape modes were hugely improved, which seem to be the common TGP complaint (which – honestly – how many people on TGP have ACTUALLY played/owned everything that they say they have?? i think half of the people just parrot what they’ve heard the majority forum populace say). Plus, you can store and name the presets (100 of them) on the Timefactor which is extremely useful in longer sets. I don’t know of any other delay pedal that you can literally type in a songs name and save that preset as that. You can have global or per-preset tap tempo to change between delay types, it has more time subdivisions than are humanly useful (the common go-to’s plus 10/16 or 15/16 or dotted 32nd delays and all sorts of weird-uns in between) it always has had BPM readouts, it can sync its tempo with other pedals, it has a super programmable AUX footswitch (i cloned a This1smyne 3 button switch and assigned it bank down, freeze, and tap), it can do the freeze function that the EH Freeze pedal does and that thing costs $158 on its own… it’s smaller than a manhole cover, it is switchable from true bypass and dsp bypass and dsp bypass w/reverb/delay tails… and can be powered by my 1 Spot. Seriously, it is the most fully featured and practical delay out there and it sounds amazing. Maybe it’s original version didn’t, which i don’t know because i didn’t own it. But i have heard it with version 2 software and now version 3 software and each time an update comes out it amazes me how much more they can fit in that little black and blue wonder. It’s the centerpiece of my whole pedalboard

@Adam…oh, I see. I guess that’s the same as just using the included adapter. I thought that perhaps you were able to streamline the powersupplies. Just out of curiosity, is there a benefit to using 1spot?

The sound on the video came out great!
I thought the people who were nit picking about mic’ing up your amp properly for yt were going too far but maybe they were right.
I’m looking forward to the DC.TL vs S.TL video in April!

I was in NYC for work last week and got to try a Two Rock Studio Pro. Ironic that these amps are made 15 minutes from my house and I finally got to try one on the other side of the country. It didn’t blow me away but I would like to try some of the other models they make. The Bogner 1-12 cab they plugged it into was impressive. If you’re ever in NY, you need to stop by Ludlow Guitars. They might be up there with True Tone for pedals (and they carry Strymon). You can also stop by Katz Deli (When Harry Met Sally, Donnie Brasco) on the corner.

One of the biggest regrets I have about living in NYC for four years was how little I utilized their music merchants. I went to “Music Row” once, and now that I think about, a Guitar Center twice. Yes–very sad. But I at least came out of it with my B.A.

I don’t think i ever went to Katz’s, but I did stop by Rupert’s Deli before attending Letterman’s show. He had John McMain and Heidi Klum on. Go figure.

Randy–wow, lot of wisdom there. You’re totally right, seeing people worship far outweighs the coolness of a new song. Now if I could just take that to heart. hehe

I love the new song pre-roll idea!

Adam–so stoked you’re diggin’ the Timefactor! The ability to download free upgrades is probably the best thing about that pedal. Huge props to Eventide for taking care of their players in this way, rather than making them buy version after version of the same pedal.

I owned two of the original version of this pedal when they first came out. I thought the delayed sound was great, and loved the bpm readout and ability to name presets. For about a week or so, it was my main delay. However, for that week, I couldn’t figure out what happened to my tone. It was losing dynamics, character, and weight. I changed tubes, strings, overdrive pedals, haha…still nothing. I finally pinned it down to the dry signal from the Timefactor. Then I read that it runs your dry signal through AD/DA converters…in essence converting your uneffected signal to digital, and then back again. You can fix this by using the Timefactor’s true bypass option, but that only fixes it in bypass mode. When the pedal is on, your signal gets converted. And unfortunately, this is a hardware issue…it doesn’t get fixed with usb software updates.

To be fair, the vast majority of folks don’t hear this issue, and love their Timefactor. To which I say, if you’re loving it, then more power to ya! I’m a little weird, and it’s possible that I only ‘think’ I hear the issue. However, the week I had my first Timefactor, I hated my tone. I sold it, didn’t hate my tone. Bottom line for me.

So again, stoked you’re loving it, and I think it’s a great pedal! But you were very forthcoming in how the Timefactor is absolutely the best delay out there, so I figured it was only fair that I articulated the fact that even though it may be the best delay out there for you, it is not the best delay out there for me. Cheers!

Guy–ya, the two delays offbeat from each other fills up a lot more space because 1) there’s two, and 2) the fact that they are at different tempos distracts your ear from thinking it’s a delay. It sounds more like a reverb. But the fact that it is a delay allows it a much longer decay time, and just a bit of a cool and different character, as reverb is used quite often.

As far as it being Timeline exclusive, thus far, it kind of is. I’ve tried many different delay pedals trying to replicate that sound, and just can’t. Some have come close, but of the one’s I’ve tried, no one’s hit it yet…at least for me.

John Mayer’s tone doesn’t seem to mind the Timefactor and people go on all day about trying to copy that guys tone Just sayin…haha

I haven’t played with the Timeline before, but i know it’s highly recommended by you. I don’t think the Timefactor is the be-all-end-all delay, or the “absolute best out there”.. like i said, i just think it absolutely is better than the DD20 specifically.

Gotcha. And I can definitely see where you’re coming from on that, and I do wish the DD20 had some of the Timefactor’s features. Just for me personally, I like the DD20 a little better than the Timefactor. And at least we’ve both owned both pedals, because I definitely agree with you that there are probably some Gear Page opinions out there from people who have not played certain pedals. hehe

And Mayer’s tone is kind of an enigma, because the shots of his board show a constantly changing lineup of effects. And he has a bunch of rack stuff, if I remember correctly. If I were to guess, I’d say the Timefactor appears for the rhythmic/U2 delay section of Heartbreak Warfare, and is probably true bypassed for the rest of his set. He also has so many switching options, there’s probably analog dry signal running to at least one of the 18 Dumble’s and Two Rocks. hehe

But most importantly, if I had Mr. Mayer’s hands, I think I’d probably just run straight into the board and still sound better than everyone else. Not quite, but close.

Plus it looks like Mayer’s running two TF’s both with the Vintage Delay setting that everyone loves to hate on. They’re his main delay. Heartbreak Warfare is an AdrenaLinn II.

I do a lot of recording and mixing and have to bring up the fact that since almost everything nowadays is recorded in Pro Tools or Logic and every vocal, mic’ed guitar cab, music video, drum hit, etc… involves running through AD/DA converters to record and mix in the digital realm. Everyone that you listen to (aside from pre mid-90′s) has run through AD/DA converters.. and those include the modern guitar tones that make us drool (like Mayer’s). Jamie Cullum’s vocals, John Mayer’s guitars, Norah Jones’ piano… are all heard through analog to digital conversion and then back again.

Live- most of us mic our amps, and many churches (and most touring acts) are going digital for their mixing boards. So what is heard live is ALSO run through that digital board’s converters, save we all gather around the tube amp to hear the guitarist. This includes U2′s recent massive tour’s digital board. So my question is – at what point does the nuance matter in a live setting when we’re ACTUALLY playing next to drums, vocals, keyboards (with their huge octave and dynamic range able to eat into the frequency range electric guitars live in)? We certainly can’t hear it at 105db that Eric Johnson is, in fact, using a tone sucking original Big Muff. I’m all for enjoying the beauty at bedroom levels when no one else is around – but i also play out often – and not just for church services and i can honestly say i’ve been frustrated many times that my finely honed and crafted guitar signal was either not “properly conveyed” due to the rest of the band masking said beauty or the sound engineer simply shaping the electric to fit the mix better (i.e. putting in high mids and cutting low lows). What is the point then? “Amazing” at home just sounds “cool” to the masses anyway.

lots of truth in this. though it may sound moot to desire good analog gear, we can’t remove the fact that having good gear inspires us to play better (most times). yes, nobody hears what we hear and maybe it’s not as important to other people but ourselves … just knowing its there makes it worth it for me, at least. fwiw, i would not mind going back to my POD XTL for church use if I am ever asked to do so … ok maybe I’ll mind a little

My comments on this are below a few posts. The comment threading on my site kind of sucks, so I figured I’d post it where it could be full width.

The gist of it is, rock whatever tool for the job helps you make great music. And secondly, that I think more people than we think, notice differences. Maybe not with their heads as in, ‘I bet their was digital conversion going on there’, but in their ears…as in, ‘Wow, things sounded great today…I don’t know why.’ I’ve talked to more than a few non-musicians who notice something wrong with mp3′s, and who notice a large difference in the 2 U2 live clips I posted below in my response.

And most importantly, remember that what absolutely works for you, may not absolutely work for someone else. And this is a good thing. I say that as much to myself as anyone. hehe And also, just because I wrote it on a blog, doesn’t make it true. You may love AD/DA conversion, or solid state, or the M13…and I’ll concede that at any given time, any of those may be the right tool for the job. Go try everything. lol

Agreed. And to answer your earlier question, yes, I lead worship and also play lead electric, but i also designed our church santuary for acoustics, laid out the acoustic paneling, designed the sound system and run the (digital) board whenever another worship leader leads. I *almost* enjoy mixing as much as i do play guitar. …Hey, it’s fun!

Indeed, it all boils down to what you said: Go try everything and see what the right tool for the job is. Here’s the main irony i wish to point out: your amp mic, unless you’re using an RTA reference mic at the perfect location, will color your tone, the long 100′+ snake cable that runs to the board that most church’s/live venues have – can add noise and also colors the tone. Remember how we guitarists spend tons of money on Lava Cable and George L’s, Evidence, etc.. because the problem of capacitance? Yeah. Do you think passive Shure mic’s (or any passive mic for that matter) drive cable better than passive guitar pickups? The board, analog or digital or hybrid, colors your tone, the top boxes (house speakers) color your tone… the list goes on. Not to mention that a good sound engineer is going to add reverb, cut and boost eq and pan you in order to fit you well in the mix. That alone is enough to make most guitarists grit our collective teeth.

Karl brought up the point that Jack White records analog. Maybe he did in the “It Might Get Loud” video, but i assure you the recordings were not distributed on reel-to-reel medium. They were mp3′s and CD’s – which means at the point prior to distribution they were moved to the digital realm. If we think we can still hear the warmth, then that means that “digital” successfully translated that. If U2 went from a Midas analog board to one of Midas’ old model digital boards, or actually any of the earlier large digital consoles, there would be a difference because Midas’ first digital boards were a disaster. Allen & Heath, Digidesign, Soundcraft all make INCREDIBLE sounding digital boards that sound crisp and warm and full at the same time. I’ve checked them (Soundcraft) out this year and last year at NAMM in the Harmon Group room and they straight up blow away the analog consoles – and not just in functionality. They sound rich and clear and not harsh at all – they just faithfully translate the source audio.

I met a guitarist a few weeks ago that used to be a session musician for well known Christian artists and has played with virtually everyone – and he told me that some of the gear he’d run into surprised him. Tommy Walker plays thru a Boss GT6 (lol!) with a Xotic pedal in front… and we all know about Lincoln Brewster’s X3 Live(s) and AxeFx rigs. Not saying those guys are the chiefs of tone, but still… haha. They are generally known as “great guitarists”, and i’ll leave it at that.

I think the strongest justification is that, as Karl said, we want our source audio to sound great, and as someone else added – it inspires us to play better. But let’s all be realistic and realize that much of that is changed (for better or worse), played with, and potentially lost or improved by the time it hits the ears of the audience/congregation. We are a part of the whole, and we need to fit however the song needs us to. Sometimes that means i have to lose my bottom end for the kick or bass to sound clean and sometimes it means that the rad, full clean tone i dialed needs to thin out and notched up to cut through a slew of pads and drum rudiments. I think the more i play out the more i come to grips with that fact and now just shoot for “great” no matter the means i arrive at it. Gear is sure fun though!!!

Absolutely! I love what you said about shooting for ‘great’ no matter how you arrive at it. My point is that we’re all different, and we arrive at it in different ways.

And if I remember correctly, I think U2 jumped from the analog Midas console to a Digidesign console between 2001 and 2005. I could be wrong, though. Also, some of Jack White’s newest offerings are distributed on vinyl only. I’m not saying that’s something we all should be moving towards (lol), and it’s probably a terrible business decision; but it is a point of interest, I believe, to see some artists doing that.

We do need to be real with ourselves in the amount of processing and capacitance our signal goes through before it hits people’s ears, whether live or on cd; I agree with you there. But the bottom line for me is, if I hear a difference I don’t like from a pedal, cable, pick, a Timefactor (hehe ), mic, etc., I’m probably not going to use that piece of gear anymore. And I’d hope that’d be the same for everyone: use your ears, and then realize, before making blanket statements (that’s directed at me, hehe), that we all have different ones.

So you designed your church’s whole auditorium, and play guitar, but also understand music from a mixing point of view? My brother, I am humbled in your presence. lol Except that I’m serious. That’s seriously awesome, and also, at least in my experience, really, really rare. If you’re ever in the Southern California area, I’d love to buy you coffee and ask you some questions regarding acoustics and such. Maybe we could jam, and who knows…if the 4th update for the Timefactor is out by then…you might just convince me. Might…hehe

Rhoy–:) Ya, if Eventide came out with a new version with an analog dry signal, I’d probably be on it in a heartbeat!

Guy–I think you do it through WordPress. You have to have an account there. It’s free, though.

Dan–haha Thanks. Ya, it’s just so much more work to edit the audio into the video, and check clipping levels, and I’m not even selling these pedals. hehe I don’t mind doing it for the songs I write, but I’ve only done it for a few demo’s thus far. Guess maybe I should get over my laziness. hehe

Stoked you got to try a Two Rock, and very jealous you were in New York. I’ve never been, and really want to. Also stoked you like Donnie Brasco. ‘Close the window?! I’m gettin’ cancer over here!’

Getting to see some friends and family in NY was nice. Deciding not to pack boots because I didn’t expect to be dealing with 19″ of snow – not so awesome
It was not very Mayer trying out the amp with a SG that wouldn’t stay in tune. I think a lot of the Mayer sound is the headroom that comes from a 100 watt amp.

Has anyone seen the new Visual Sound Dual Delay that’s coming out later this year? No BPM readout, but if you use a click track, it has an input where it auto syncs to your click. Plus two delays that are cascadable (is that a word?)… I know I’ll be picking one up…

Awesome! I may look into that. Is the input midi, quarter inch, or TRS? I guess I could just click the link, huh.

How does the Memory Boy sound in relation to the original Memory Man and maybe the Diamond Memory Lane? The price is awesome for it, but I’ve read some off-putting reviews. Always hard to tell if the reviews are for real, or just because it says ‘EH’ on it. hehe Thanks!

And no worries on the link! Yikes, I wish I didn’t say anything about that now. lol It’s only when the link is preceded by an obvious home shopping network infomercial, and then followed with a ‘I just happen to have gotten an extra shipment of them in my online store.’ Even then, if it’s a cool enough delay, I don’t care. haha

Haha, got it. I love my DMB. Granted, I haven’t used as many of the higher end delays (i.e. Timline and Memory Lane) in my rig to see how they react, but I get a lot of use out of mine. I keep it on the dotted eighth tap divide most of the time, and keep the modulation very slow and shallow, but on. The gain knob is great for getting a slight boost to keep things smooth without bumps or drops in volume. I’ve used the expression pedal to adjust the feedback to go between a normal 2-3 echoish sound to a high number of repeats for volume swells and the like. I really wish it could control the blend, though, because that’s what I feel like I adjust the most on the fly. I’ve been thinking about putting one of the big T1M style knobs on it so I could adjust it with my foot though. As far as comparing it to a DMM, it’s different. Not better or worse, just different. The echo’s are a bit more pronounced, but not digy sounding. It has a high cut you can turn on by holding one of the buttons while you plug it in, which I guess would make it more dmm sounding, but I like it as is. Between it, my cheapo marshall echohead (controlled by $3 in parts from rat shack as a tap tempo), and my home brewed digi-delay (set only as lots of repeats and long delays for swells), I can do just about anything I need to. I’m the only electric in my worship band, and I can fill in space nicely, cut through with the chorus of “streets” style echo leads, or just rock out with a low quarter delay-ed rhythm… I keep meaning to make a “rig” demo to throw on my little blog, but I’m too lazy

I purchased a like new Celestion G12-H30 16 ohm off the TGP Emporium, got it for the Classic 30, but I sold the C30 long before the speaker showed up. Anyone interested? Willing to trade for the right pedal as well, this thing goes great in a 2X12 I think?

Karl if this pisses you off please erase it. I just wanted to put that out there.

Adam–well, I stand corrected! You’ve done a lot more research into Mayer’s rig than I have.

And you bring up a good point on the AD/DA converters in recording. And I suppose the bottom line is that we all draw our ‘tone line’ somewhere. You don’t mind AD/DA converters in your rig. But I do. But even though I don’t like AD/DA converters in recording, I still record into my computer because it’s much more convenient than reel to reel. hehe But their our folks out there (Jack White comes to mind with a couple of his many projects) that our still doing 100% analog recordings. His line is even farther down than mine.

For me, in my very humble experiences, I tend to get a much better recorded sound and live mic’d sound when my source sound is as pure as possible. Hence, no AD/DA converters in my rig. Will one kill it? Probably not, although I was extremely unhappy with the Timefactor in my rig before I even knew what AD/DA converters were. hehe But three or four might. So from my own personal experiences, I go with no conversion. Especially when trying to cut through a full band mix, like you mentioned. But like I said earlier, guitarists a lot better than me (Mayer, and probably you and most readers here! ) don’t seem to care. Which is awesome, as long as you’re happy with your tone.

As for live mixing consoles going digital, I am fighting a losing battle on that one. I wish I could remember where it was, but in one of the comments threads here a few months back, I posted some examples of U2′s live sound when they were still on an analog Midas board and when they switched to a digital board. And the difference, at least to me, was pretty vast; and at the very least, noticeable. I may have to concede on that one in the near future, but the difference is still too great for me to go buy a digital console, at least for my untrained and possibly wrong, ears. But here’s one of the biggest examples, that you can hear even with youtube compression:

Granted, both have been run through digital recorders anyway…and Edge is using some not so great gear on the Vertigo Tour…but it’s still an interesting case study, I think. And these videos are pretty accurate representations of the sound off of the dvd’s.

Hope that makes sense! I totally respect your view, and respect even more that you’ve thought it through. Bottom line for me is that my source tone sounds better and makes me happier when the integrity of the analog signal is preserved.

Great discussion, bro! I really appreciate it. Is your experience on both sides of the mixer? It sounds like it is, and I always like it when guitarists know both.

Dan–haha Nice. And I think you’re right on the headroom of Mayer’s 100-watters.

man….the DD20 sounds good! Totally agree with the whole boss thing, I own a stock BD-2 and want to get it modded just to say I did! (even though it sounds great stock!) Looks like the DD20 is my next pedal to get.

Just watched the test–interesting, well done. Like someone else said here, it’s cool to hear pedals you haven’t played, and I’d add even ones you won’t buy, just so you can have a slightly more holistic view on what goes in to making different kinds of music. The DD20 sounded pretty good, maybe I’ll have to consider one of their smaller stompboxes for similar tones–I would be interested in hearing if the DD5 runs through AD/DA converters.

And I just wanted to add because it makes me happy, I picked up a heavy gauge Dunlop glass slide today, looking forward to trying it out. I’m thinking most slides won’t sound that good on my Schecter, cause the strings are only 10′s and the action is relatively low. I’m a novice with slide stuff but I realize how much better my metal slide sounded with my acoustic, and that I didn’t completely suck at slide (just mostly). I’m thinking of buying a Mexican Tele and setting the action/strings for slide playing, and perhaps eventually replacing the pickups to have an equal competitor with my schecter (I like high output pickups, especially my Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge). The gradual upgrade could make owning another guitar a not-so-distant reality (I’ve had a low-burning Tele fever for a while), and the specific use of slide playing (which of course I need desperately) justifies the purchase. Oh GAS.

I really like my DD-7′s, and am stoked to learn that they don’t convert the dry signal. I’ve had a DD-7 for a lot of my guitar journey, and it always seems to be the pedal I come back to. I was beginning to think that I was missing out on something by not having the DD-20, but the extra space on the pedalboard is huge, particularly with two of them.

I know Karl’s not a fan, but I really like my Nova Delay. I think the delays sound great, very easy to dial in the sound you want, 9 presets on tap, and a nice small footprint. I don’t find it sucks tone when off either. Although I have both the DD-20 and the Nova on my board, I use the Nova 2 times for every time I use the DD-20.

If you can get a good deal Larry I’d suggest going for it – or maybe try and have a play with it first to make sure it’s the pedal for you.

You need to try your hand at some “older delays” to experience real spaciousness, such as an echoplex or roland re-201. Those do fit that category and they really are musical. They have changed how I compare all others…

I got mine after hearing from Baggas and another person here, and a pretty good deal ($200 new), and I’ve been happy with it so far (though with all my grad school applying, I haven’t had enough time with it). Sometimes using the foot-switches to scroll through presets can be annoying (when you don’t do it quick enough and then turn the pedal on-off-on-off), but this happens maybe on 1 out of 10 attempts, and I don’t have to change delays that much in songs. I also have mine right next to my volume pedal and I need to make a little more room so the tap-tempo is 100% unobstructed. That said I haven’t had much time to play with it yet–I’ve fiddled a lot, but haven’t seriously, seriously dialed in tones. I enjoy it more at stage levels, I think it starts to shine there (but maybe that’s because my tubes are allowed to breathe a bit). I haven’t played the DD20 so can’t comment there–the only thing I would change about the Nova is adding an external footswitch–I may mod mine with Dan (this1smyne) for $80, but only if I really decide it’s a for-sure keeper (and I think I’ll wait till my 1-year warranty’s up). I think the current tap-tempo switch works fine, but a dedicated scrolling switch would be nice.

Also–some say the modulation is too subtle–it is subtle, but the 3rd setting sounds really good (imho). I think this pedal will be very versatile for what I want it to do. But listen to others here–I’m relatively new to delay pedals and still figuring out exactly what I like (such as maybe getting a looper for practice/noodling around).

Funny thing is I’ve been playing it so much modulated I have to remind myself what my “dry” signal sounds like (haha which I just said to stir up Karl–I mean the unmodulated AD/DA conversion sound). I still need to calibrate it.

Check “The Tone Journey and Less Cool Pedalboard,” I had asked some similar questions about the Nova pre-purchase (check near the bottom).

Nate–that sounds rad! I may give the Memory Boy a try…a Memory Boy/Memory Lane/new tap Memory Man/Malekko 919 may be in order. Love that you built your own tap/expression for the Echohead. Wish I were as cool! hehe

Mike–ya, such a great little pedal! Same with that BD2…kills me every time, modded or no.

Caleb–ya for what it does and what it costs, it’s great. And I have a little Dunlop slide…haven’t really gotten into the nuances of different slides yet. I need to practice more. hehe

Ben–I’m starting to get interested in a DD7 as well. Nice to know you’re loving yours!

Thad–thanks, bro! I’m all for the blind tests, too. I think Analogman has a couple really good ones, also!

Larry, Baggas, and Thad–hehe Ya, I’m not the biggest fan of the Nova. Mainly because it converts your dry signal; but not too much worries there as most folks don’t seem to care. (I mean that in a good way…I wish I didn’t care.) As for its delayed sound, the delays to me seem very hi-fi and trebly. I also mean that in a good way! It had a real glisten to the sounds when I heard it for the little time I did. So, if that’s the ticket for ya, it might just be it. For me personally, I tend to like things just a little more lo-fi, if that makes any sense.

Josh–Agreed, those are quite lovely! Unfortunately, I don’t have the cash to keep something just for home use that I can’t gig with. I know some folks gig with them, but I don’t have the money for repair or the muscles to lug ‘em. hehe Maybe someday, I’ll be able to afford some studio only gear. You’re right, it would be spaciousness galore.

Caleb–that’s awesome that it’s really doing it for ya! Not my particular cup o’ tea (this week, hehe), but still a great pedal. And props to TC for keeping the price down on it.

So, I have to admit the whole time you were doing the blind test I was loving the sounds from the DD20. I was kind of shocked when you said loop 6 was the DD20. I guess that goes to show how personal preference plays a large part (if not all of it) in what gear we think sounds the best.

I am torn between the DD20 and the Nova. I like the looping on the DD20 but I also have a DD7 (which has some weird things going on with the looper) and I don’t loop all that often. So, I might be leaning towards the Nova.

hey guys i have a guy who wants to trade me a Arion sad-1 delay black box for my boss ce-5 chorus…good trade? i dont want the arion bad but i want it for fun and i NEVER use my chorus i think its dumb and sounds liek crap it is BOSS ahahha…i couldnt sell it for 50 bucks onCL so good deal or no? the arion is missing battery cover and knobs..but ill have dan at this1smyne.com rehouse it in a nice metal box

I really liked the timeline, it had a more pleasant bigger sound to it but i would be worried about it not cutting through in a mix. Also the price. Oh and the size of the thing

Recognized the DD20 almost instantly though, it has that distinct percussive sound to it. Hmm I wonder if the smooth setting makes it sound more like the timeline?

I don’t know much about the memory man but my memory toy is a wonderful little pedal. Brilliant for tweaking on the go for oscillations, feedback etc. I usually use it for a quick slap-back to make my clean sound BIG!

hey for you dd-20 lovers out there! im selling mine(trying to raise funds for more lovely pedals) open to b/o and trades for other gear pedals etc…(NEED ANOTHER POWER SUPPLY) so if ya have a extra would trade for one like voodoo labs 2+ ..also love ods trems and reverbs
emails patrickrosington@yahoo.com
thanks

Josh–hehe Ya, same here. It is pretty crazy how much our eyes get involved in the tone-hearing. Although I did like the Timeline, too. On the DD20/Nova dilemma, I’m for the DD20 because the Nova runs your dry signal through AD/DA converters. However, that being said, I’m one of the very few that cares. Chances are, you’ll really like the Nova.

ANd what issues does the DD7′s looper have? I tried some looping on one yesterday at GC through the obligatory Roland Cube (yeah! hehe), and was pretty impressed. Does it glitch after a while?

Patrick, Guy, & Craig–yep! Totally the Arion. Amazing pedal. And 12 volts does allow some delays more headroom, but you have to make sure the pedal can handle it or you will fry it! I’ve never heard one way or the other on the Arion pedals. So if you’re not sure, run it on 9 volts.

James–ya, I liked the Timeline, too. And actually, it sits nicely in a mix without cutting through too much. That’s one of the things I like about it; you can fill up a lot of space without drawing a ton of attention to the fact that you’re using obiquitous amounts of delay. hehehe

The smooth setting I was actually confused by. It sounds almost exactly like the Normal mode, and the MOd mode without the modulation.

Stoked you’re loving the Memory Toy! It’s definitely time I tried one of that line.

TimH–totally tried a DD7 yesterday and was quite impressed. Might pick one up, especially with your good review.

Nate–thanks. Ya, I may start doing it more often; it’s just so much more work when I’m not selling any of these pedals like ProGuitarShop or the Jack Black dude is. haha But I know, I need to not be so lazy. Thanks for the kind words.

Patrick–the selling comments are totally cool, but if we could keep them to one per thread, that’d be awesome. Thanks for doing that already, just thought I’d mention it. Also, Gear Page might be the safer way to sell, as I can in no way legally take responsibility for any transaction initiated here. Thanks!

My problem with the DD7 looper is that you can’t lead into a line. I know that’s not a great description. My experience has been that if I record a line, I have to hit the pedal right on the down beat to overdub in proper time. It seems like it records one thing and then records another and just starts the recordings at the same time. For instance, If i record a line and then want the next line to start on the 4th beat of that first line it doesn’t work.

It’s been a while since I’ve tried any looping with it so maybe I’m misremembering. I don’t like that you have to hold down the pedal on the DD20 but other than that I really like the looper.

It seems like they should be the same given they are both Boss pedals and from the same line…

Interesting! I’ll give that a try and listen for what you mentioned. If in fact it syncs the overdubs to start at the same time, I’m totally with you…that’d be an absolute deal-breaker for me. Thanks for the info!

ya i checked on gear page almost everyone said they run there arion on 12v so im going to just go for it cus i guess back then its what they were meant for…and dont worry i wont spam it or anythign i just thought its a dd20 post so i would throw in out there!
hey im looking at getting a fuzz i have a mjm london and its nice but i also hate it what do you guy think?

analog delay on 12v? I wouldn’t do that. the delay chips were designed to work off of a specific voltage, you’ll probably be killing the poor thing. Unless its regulated, then theres no difference in sound anyway because it’s getting the same voltage. pointless either way.

I love reading this blog to find expression of my delay sentiments. (the fact that I have delay “sentiments” immediately places me into a narrow class of individuals who are disproportionately represented here…).

Anyway, the DD-20 really is stellar. Thanks to this blog, I mortgaged one of my kids, and ponied up $400 for a Timeline last year. And while it sounded great, I quickly realized that unless I was ready to commit to full-blown midi implementation (i.e., funded by mortgaging my other kid), the Timeline was actually much less useable live (for my needs) than the DD-20, and it only sounded marginally better.

So…I sold the Timeline, bought my second DD-20, and haven’t looked back. (and I’ll probably mortgage my third kid–born just recently–to buy the Strymon Timeline when it is released!)

Having said all of the above, and on a totally unrelated note, Karl, why haven’t you done a review of the Deluxe Memory Man?! To me, it’s the best sound I’ve ever heard out of a dedicated delay pedal–and I’ve owned the Moog, Memory Lane, and others. I need you to tell me that I shouldn’t keep buying Deluxe Memory Man (men?) pedals!!!

Patrick–interesting! I just searched the SAD-1 12 volt threads on Gear Page, and I guess it is in fact possible. I think I’ll keep mine on 9 volts though, as I like the warm, meshed quality it has. But thanks for letting me know! I was unaware.

James–I searched a couple threads on Gear Page, and I guess some folks are doing it with good results, and the led’s are lighting up brighter? I guess something about the original adapter it was designed for giving off almost 12 volts anyway. What’s your take on voltages seeing as you build pedals? I know I’ve heard noticeable differences in od’s at different voltages. If there is in fact, no difference, then I may need to get my ears checked; because it was more noticeable than I had thought it would be…depending on the pedal. ? I’d be curious to know your thoughts.

Nathan–thanks, brother. And ya, the Timeline really does need midi to be fully functional, but I just love its sound! This was an odd demo for me, because in some ways I liked the DD20, but in others I thought it was no match for the Timeline. When that happens, I usually chalk it up to both having awesome strengths, and keep them both. hehe And then have to mortgage some things like you said.

And I really do enjoy the sound of an original Memory Man. The reason I’ve never done a demo is that it’s too expensive for me to keep on the board when it doesn’t have tap tempo. Meaning, I could only use it for washy stuff, and I’ve got cheaper and smaller delays for that, as well as a Memory Lane that can do both washy and tempo’d. So, it’s one of those things where if I had more money, I’d totally have one. But for now, it’s impractical for my current needs and uses.

I am looking forward to trying out the newer, smaller one with tap tempo. Although the initial reviews haven’t been great. You’re right, there’s just something about that original one.

P.S. To everyone, there ended up being a lot of threaded comments in this particular post, so apologies if you asked me a question and I missed it!

Karl, thanks for the response. Your rationale for passing on the DMM makes sense (size & expense). Nevertheless, I’ve bought and sold that pedal a couple times, and I keep coming back to it because of the amazing sound. And yeah, it’ll be interesting to see how the new tap tempo model will sound. I’m skeptical though…probably because I was sorely disappointed with the Deluxe Memory Boy (primarily due to the inherent preamp tone coloration), and because I see that the new DMM w/ tap tempo runs off of 9V, which one would think will diminish those strong repeats that make the DMM what it is.

On another note: I’ve been looking for a “washy” (good term) background delay to add general ambience, as you’ve mentioned in lots of postings. Per your reviews, I’ve tried the Arion SAD-1 and Ibanez DE7 for this purpose, as well as the Carbon Copy and Malekko 616 (which was very good).

Surprisingly, I find that the DE7 is among the best of any delay I’ve played in terms of its natural decay and warmth. So, based on that observation, I’ve sold the other pedals, and I’m going to have Dan at this1smyne add an external expression jack to control delay time (essentially as a quasi-replacement for tap tempo). This way, I’ll be able to adjust the DE7′s tempo live without having to bend over. The DE7 really adds a wonderful depth that will keep me from longing for the DMM too much… ( :

Unfortunately, there is not. One of the big knocks on the DD-20 is that in dual mode all you get is basically slapback along with a regular delay. The short delay time is changed by holding one of the pedals down (can’t remember which one at the moment b/c I never use dual mode b/c it’s useless ) if I recall correctly the highest the short delay time can go is 100ms.

You guys are making me want to sell the Timefactor I just got and re-buy a DD20 (or a DE7) I used the DD20 for a couple weeks, but the repeats were so low and 4 presets just wasn’t enough…but I may actually have to read the manual to use this TF

Oh, and I have a MINT DD7 that’s for sale (have to fund the TF purchase). I bought it from TGP, used it one week; cool pedal, but I can’t bend down and change settings live.

i see you haven’t heard much of a dif between 18 and 9v on your ods ….some is a worlds dif some do nothing like my rockbox is a totally DIF pedal on 18v ill never run it on 9vs aagain its so nice and just ya can heard everything so well and the notes separate perfect but yet cleans up SOOO well..but some other ods i have tried dont change except maybe the light gets brighter has your timmy changed on 18v or have ya not tried just curious im interested in selling my kanji eternity and buying a timmy everyone seems to dig them!..and for the delay subject i hateee my dd-20
compared to my vintage DMM its like trash can that say BOSS ahahah and timefactor may not sound perfecto but i think theres something about them thats great same witht he empress VMSD it has a weird mod to it i LOVE i have been looking for both those on gear page anywho thats all folks.

Patrick–I agree…I run almost every od that can handle it at over 9 volts.

And I wasn’t incredibly stoked on the Eternity, but really like the Timmy.

Also, that’s interesting that you hate the DD20, and that it sounds like trash can. I really enjoy my DD20, and have sold two Timefactor’s and one Vintage Modified Empress Super Delay. (Although I did think the Super Delay sounded very nice.) Ah, well, to each his own I suppose. And if you’re trying to get your DD20 to sound like a DMM, that’ll never happen. haha Different animals. Same as if you were trying to get your DMM to do a super crisp runaway dotted quarter at 60 bpm with reverse on it. That won’t happen either. Different tools for different parts of the job, in my humble opinion.

ya im def selling my eternity im just stuck between the analogman king of tone or timmy both sound WONDERFUL =( but i dont wanna wait for KOT so prob timmy..and ya the dd-20 i just dont liek any of the sounds like i never use any weird reverse sounds(plus i didnt think it did them to swell) i liek my anolog delays=) and for digital i already said what i like! and aww man i wish ya still had the VMSD i woulda snatched it up from ya but ya i never used weird delays really so i dont need the dd20

dangit! all this talk about how awesome the DD-20 is made me feel so good about having one on my board. it reminded me so much of everything that I love about it that I snapped up another one on Craigslist this week! it was only a hundred bucks, but what am I going to do with two DD-20′s?
BTW, used one last week with my acoustic for leading worship with a very small team (me singing & playing, an alto, and a kid on djembe) and it was awesome.

Well if the original adapter was designed for ~12v then it’s fine running it off of 12v. Actually it may not like a lower voltage that much which would consequently explain why people suggest it sounds muddier at 9v. It will be starved for volts at 9v. From experience I think that the delay chips themselves want 5v, because the arions an old design, and assuming it will be expecting 12v to get 5v from, if its provided with 9v the delay chips will be running off of 3.75v which is relatively a fair amount less. It wouldn’t be killing the components running it at 9v but it may not be what it’s designed to do.

To put it simply you should always go with the manufactures words on voltages for modulation pedals. If arion say 12v anyway, 12v it should be

Playing with voltages on overdrive/boost pedals can often be fun. Resistors have power limits, power = volts*current. you don’t need to worry about exceeding their limits in a stompbox really, unless it’s a high voltage circuit to start with (say 48v maybe). Opamps have voltage limits, check the manafactures datasheet for the maximum voltage the opamp in your overdrive pedal can take before increasing the voltage. Capacitors have voltage limits, usually ones in stompboxes will be 16v, you can often open up the pedal and read the voltages on the side of the caps. if you exceed this you are slowly killing off the caps in the pedal at a much quicker rate than otherwise. Transistors follow the same principle as opamps. 12v is usually completely fine for running any overdrive off. 18v is where things can start to go wrong in some overdrive/boost pedals.

BTW, the M9 do sound better than my expectation. It will be even better if it has supports killdry. But I can only test it with a MicroBR now. I have no access to my amp and all other effects until I move to my new home.

best article written about delays! and you know what, I did somehow the same shootout between the DD20 and the Timeline and also had difficulties to hear differences sometime…but I didn´t dare to tell anyone… Cheers, phil

Luciano–you know, I read that it runs your dry signal through AD/DA converters, so I haven’t tried it beyond hearing it at NAMM last year, I believe. But seems like a decent delay. If you don’t mind the AD/DA thing; which most folks don’t.

Phil–thanks, bro! And stoked that you got the same results. The DD20′s definitely a great sleeper pedal.

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