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Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

The Rogue/Artificer is somehow a worse smith then the peasant/magewright. one gets cl 6 items which are crap most of the time, while the magewright can produce cl 9 s. f.e. belt of strength, never full bag etc.. the cheaper creation of items of the one is 5% * int mod versus flat 25%.

In my eyes if a player wants to play the crafter type, he should play a peasant class. in my opinion that should never be the case for a player character.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by theDuskling

The Rogue/Artificer is somehow a worse smith then the peasant/magewright. one gets cl 6 items which are crap most of the time, while the magewright can produce cl 9 s. f.e. belt of strength, never full bag etc.. the cheaper creation of items of the one is 5% * int mod versus flat 25%.

In my eyes if a player wants to play the crafter type, he should play a peasant class. in my opinion that should never be the case for a player character.

The magewright is not intended for player use (hence why it is an archetype for the NPC class). It's merely there to add an in-game method/justification for having slightly-higher magic items available, for those of you who prefer higher-magic games.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

2D8 is probably ravager, yes. Given the language involved however, since it's not actually a Monk, it doesn't gain an unarmed strike bonus, its unarmed strike merely gains two sizes over base which don't stack unless your DM is laissez faire.
Since the Brawler's fists don't apply as natural weapons, Improved Natural Attack doesn't work either, which is probably for the best.

The only Breathstealer issue I can see is that they get a +12 to Grapple by level 1 if they're human, and can wrassle and hogtie Ogres most of the time. If your BBEG is going to be anything less than Huge, there's very, very little that he can do if and when he's grappled, since Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement are both out of E6.

At most I'd move the "counts as a size larger when grappling" to Moderate, since the immediate action thing is pretty situational.

For the Battlefist... He could potentially still make ranged touch attacks, but if he hits, he can then choose to pull himself after the fist, making it a sort of super Grappling Hook I suppose? Sounds familiar though...

For the Cenobite, what about "They may use Perfect Harmony three times per encounter" for their Major? At least this way they could do something actually cool, like move + 'port 100' to their target, then flurry with Hammer Blow on the first attack. They get so little from their Archetype comparatively that triple capstone is almost balanced.

Martial Artist: Bear in mind that the Swordsage is a BAB medium class, and the "best" initiator. Perhaps they should be getting manoeuvres as a Warblade in Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon, with his choice of either Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand or Desert Sun? 6/4/2 with a swift recovery is a bit more reasonable, and since the Swift can be coupled with the Standard Full Attack Flurry that's still pretty sweet. And they can always use Extra Stance and Extra Manoeuvre feats.

Ravager: Pretty well solid really, they can always switch two +6/+6/+1 if they ever need to connect with things.
Should possibly add a clause to stop them from:
- Rend-healing more health than the target has.
- Using it on non-living targets.

I'd mention Minion abuse here, but given all the insane things the Tyrant can do, this barely blips on the radar.

Concerning Engineer versatility: How versatile is the engineer compared to the Red Mage? Serious question.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Responses in bold.

Originally Posted by Kholai

2D8 is probably ravager, yes. Given the language involved however, since it's not actually a Monk, it doesn't gain an unarmed strike bonus, its unarmed strike merely gains two sizes over base which don't stack unless your DM is laissez faire.
Since the Brawler's fists don't apply as natural weapons, Improved Natural Attack doesn't work either, which is probably for the best.

The only Breathstealer issue I can see is that they get a +12 to Grapple by level 1 if they're human, and can wrassle and hogtie Ogres most of the time. If your BBEG is going to be anything less than Huge, there's very, very little that he can do if and when he's grappled, since Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement are both out of E6.

At most I'd move the "counts as a size larger when grappling" to Moderate, since the immediate action thing is pretty situational.

Seems like a reasonable suggestion. I'll see what I can do.

For the Battlefist... He could potentially still make ranged touch attacks, but if he hits, he can then choose to pull himself after the fist, making it a sort of super Grappling Hook I suppose? Sounds familiar though...

... robot Batman? Hmmmm... what about the reverse? Think Scorpion from Mortal Kombat. Tactical repositioning of enemies from range could be a useful skill, and not a very common one. Is there a term for a reverse bull rush?

For the Cenobite, what about "They may use Perfect Harmony three times per encounter" for their Major? At least this way they could do something actually cool, like move + 'port 100' to their target, then flurry with Hammer Blow on the first attack. They get so little from their Archetype comparatively that triple capstone is almost balanced.

No offense, but I'd rather come up with something unique to the archetype, something that sets them apart rather than just improved usage of a common ability. I don't know exactly why, other than it tickles the creative problem-solving part of my brain to try.

Martial Artist: Bear in mind that the Swordsage is a BAB medium class, and the "best" initiator. Perhaps they should be getting manoeuvres as a Warblade in Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon, with his choice of either Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand or Desert Sun? 6/4/2 with a swift recovery is a bit more reasonable, and since the Swift can be coupled with the Standard Full Attack Flurry that's still pretty sweet. And they can always use Extra Stance and Extra Manoeuvre feats.

That's a good point. Much of the swordsage maneuvers were probably designed with medium BAB in mind.

Ravager: Pretty well solid really, they can always switch two +6/+6/+1 if they ever need to connect with things.
Should possibly add a clause to stop them from:
- Rend-healing more health than the target has.
- Using it on non-living targets.

I'd mention Minion abuse here, but given all the insane things the Tyrant can do, this barely blips on the radar.

I'm likely implementing a daily minion limit. It'll be high, but still finite. Likely class level + Charisma modifier. Dismissing a minion would add it back to the pool, but killing it would not. Kill enough minions, and the tyrant is looking a lot less intimidating. Adds elements of strategy, tactics, resource management to the archetype, too.

Also thinking about making minions and henchmen common to the noble class, not just the tyrant, but making the tyrant better at controlling and driving them on. It makes less sense for someone like the duelist (though duelists did have seconds and other various sycophants), but definitely fits with the warchief or the patrician, for example.

Concerning Engineer versatility: How versatile is the engineer compared to the Red Mage? Serious question.

Probably more so, at least day-to-day. The red mage probably adapts to change more quickly (especially in combat), but has overall more limited methods (especially outside of combat). It's wizard v. sorcerer all over again, honestly.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Reverse Bullrush sounds interesting, you could simply resolve it "as a bullrush" but with the ultimate direction being towards instead of away from the player. There's a lot of tactical utility there.

No offence taken; it just occurred to me that the most Monk-like features were already present on the main class for everyone to use. If the Cenobyte is going to be more "pure brawler" than any other brawler, one that makes better use of the base class features is one way to go about it.

Probably more so, at least day-to-day. The red mage probably adapts to change more quickly (especially in combat), but has overall more limited methods (especially outside of combat). It's wizard v. sorcerer all over again, honestly.

Alright, expanding on this:

Are you including the fact that the Red Mage gets four fewer skills and a smaller hitdie than the Engineer into this consideration as well?

How does the Engineer compare against the Black Mage? Or the White Mage? The Blue Mage and the Green Mage?

If he's more versatile than primary spellcasters who are Low BAB, 2 Skillpoints and D6 HD, then I'm very much in the "Inventions get beaten heavily with the nerf-hammer" camp. If he's got more powerful options as well, then I'd be suggesting he gets 4 Skillpoints and a D6 HD, just to keep it reasonable.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by theDuskling

The Rogue/Artificer is somehow a worse smith then the peasant/magewright. one gets cl 6 items which are crap most of the time, while the magewright can produce cl 9 s. f.e. belt of strength, never full bag etc.. the cheaper creation of items of the one is 5% * int mod versus flat 25%.

In my eyes if a player wants to play the crafter type, he should play a peasant class. in my opinion that should never be the case for a player character.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Thinking on it, maybe it should be the cenobite who gets the armed flurry, not the Martial Artist? Martial Artist can certainly afford to lose it, whilst Cenobytes would benefit the most from having an armed flurry - possibly not even restricted to monk-only weapons as opposed to weapons they're proficient with.

Gladiator Level 6.

Full simple weapon proficiency, full martial weapon proficiency, and three exotic weapon proficiencies.
Light and Medium armour proficiency.
Shields (not specified to include Tower Shields).
Three flexible Fighter Feats.
Counts as a Level 6 Fighter (Meaning, I believe, Weapon Specialisation and not much else).
May reroll a single miss per encounter, cannot be disarmed, and weapon cannot be sundered (as ever, absolute immunity seems a little excessive, perhaps they could get a +Class Level as a bonus to resist sunder and disarm attempts with it?)
Modified Whirlwind attack, essentially targeting between two and three targets at full BAB.
May move 5' as a swift action.
May take 10' steps instead of 5' steps.

+6/+1 Attacks
+5/+2/+2 Saves
15-60 + Con HP
4 + Int Maxed skills.

Once per encounter:
Remove all non-lethal damage and a slew of effects, not including most mental ones.
Additional Full Attack as a swift action. The RAW does not grant an additional 5' step, so that's fine.
Ignore any one attack as an immediate action.

Overall, the base chassis gives a lot less than the Brawler, who basically uses a Bastard Sword in each hand when they're level 6, attacks more often, has better saves, and with a Chain Shirt and 14 Int or Wis is getting AC equal to full plate (half of which applies to touch attacks). Has Evasion, moves faster, has Standard Action full attacks... And unarmed strikes can't be disarmed or sundered.

If it's the Battlefist, then they're even potentially doing Greatsword Strength-and-a-half damage. With reach.

And I almost forgot, they have pounce by default.

With this in mind, it may actually be fairer to make the Brawler medium BAB. It shouldn't greatly diminish the class, and will rein it in here. They'll still handily fulfil the mobile combatant archetype.

Rage 3x a day. "As a Barbarian of his class level" is slightly awkward, as a literal reading means that he may earn an additional Rage/day at level 4, but still gets the basic +4 Str/+4 Con/-2 AC and +2 Morale bonus to will saves.
Strength to Intimidate.
40' base speed, not slowed by wearing Medium armour.
May charge over difficult terrain and change direction up to 90 degrees whilst charging.
Pounce, and charge does not give an AC penalty.
DR of at least 2 + base con modifier/- whilst raging.
+6 untyped(?) bonus to Will saves against hostile mind-affecting effects whilst raging. Presumably stacks for a +10 Will save.

Not a big fan of rage, but it's a solid archetype, at least whilst raging. I'd even consider giving it an extra rage at level 6 as a minor boost.

Kensei:

I won't go into the homebrew disciplines for fear of what I'll find.
6 Manoeuvres known.
4 Manoeuvres readied. Recovered with a swift action.
2 Stances known.
Largely irrelevant "WoC is always discipline weapon", but opens the potential for Shadow Blade Dex SAD with a few feats.... With an Elven Courtblade.
Immune to fear.
Maximises damage on successful crits, if the threat was from a natural 20.

I would be concerned that he was a little lackluster on the archetype traits, but manoeuvres make up all of that. This is pretty well balanced in my opinion.

Master-At-Arms

Ignore metal-based DR.
Switch WoC as a swift action.
Basically free +4 to what I assume to be: Bullrush, Trip, Disarm, Feint, Sunder, Overrun, or Grapple. (I'm not sure if "Combat Manoeuvres" is a game term in D&D, but I think that's what it is in Pathfinder).
WoC is Keen and gets an extra x1 to its multiplier.

Subtle but potent, with his WoC (which is obviously pretty much always) he has the good half of every "Improved X" feat and is set up for easy specialisation into all of them. A Fullblade with a 17-20/x3 2D8 (with which they are proficient as one of their free proficiencies) or a 19-20/x4 Dwarven War Axe in each hand are both serious damage dealing options.

Pit Fighter
It should possibly change "connects" to "hits" with an AoO, I'm not sure if connecting is game terminology.

Take a 5' step every time an AoO hits.
Gives mages serious issues with Defensive Casting and keeping spells.
Full Attacks on every AoO.

AoO specialist, if it weren't for that awesome capstone I'd consider it a rather modest class after removing those more insane features.

For optimisation...
With Karmic Strike this guy gets to Full Attack anyone who hits him in melee.
With Hold the Line he gets to Full Attack anyone who charges him.
With Close Quarters Fighting he gets to Full Attack the Breathstealer (or anyone else) whenever he attempts to pull grapple shenanigans, and add the damage dealt as a bonus to resisting the grapple.
With Expert Tactician, if you hit with your first AoO of your Full Attack, you get an immediate +2 to hit with the second, and for the next round.

He basically gets the Double Hit feat for free if he TWFs.

For survival purposes, it's arguably worthwhile to drop two feats to pick up Stone Power for temporary hitpoints each round, or the Fey Heritage feats for DR 4/Cold Iron, since you'd be getting hit a lot, and Karmic doesn't care if you get hurt or not.

Vindicator:

Skipped since he's getting potentially reworked. Conditional bonii aren't great, compared to the other archetypes he's a bit left out.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

With this in mind, it may actually be fairer to make the Brawler medium BAB. It shouldn't greatly diminish the class, and will rein it in here. They'll still handily fulfil the mobile combatant archetype.

However, the Brawler is much more likely to have a lower strength, and so hit less. Add in medium BAB and while not being at monk levels of suck, a brawler will hit far less often.

Also, I would really prefer if the homebrew disciplines stayed in the base class design. I prefer them, to be honest, and as long as you have regular disciplines as alternatives it doesn't matter. And they actually are balanced.

Spoiler

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Checking briefly through the homebrew styles mentioned, they get a 5' indestructible Wall of Force that lasts for Concentration +1 roundsOk, a very small wall. Don't see the issue.
may make ranged attacks with their unarmed strike up to 30' awayNo issue here, if they are 30 feet away, in combat, and aren't just charging for a full attack they do need an option.
a stance that gives +1D6 damage to unarmed strikes (the Martial Artist picks up free power points if you know any Sleeping Goddess Manoeuvres for easy Psionic Focus, so no penalty from it, and just grab 1 rank in autohypnosis)3.5 bonus damage. Not a big deal.
a Stance that gives Reach at no disadvantage.Fairly strong. But reach is just a feat away, anyway.
As a counter they can get Wis to AC.+4 to AC verus an attack? Give me Wall of Blades any day.
Manifest a Mind Blade for the whole encounter (Call the Heartís Blade, level 2 Sleeping Goddess, I'll let you see for yourselves)Not quite. Not really even close to as powerful as that sounds.
Wisdom to Initiative+4 to int, that sounds like a feat.
and a three round single target "Silence" which can't be ignored by the targetAmbush feats do this.
and also works on initiators or anyone with class features or feats that aren't passive.But not this. That last one does sound OP.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Kholai

How does the Engineer compare against the Black Mage? Or the White Mage? The Blue Mage and the Green Mage?

They where about the same in my independent playtest (not the short-lived one on the forum, and before the modification to the ability level order), the Engineer was about as versatile and powerful as a smart mage (who doesn't nova all the time); his powers are strong, but limited in uses and in versatility, and it is harder to make an Engineer that is good at more than one thing due to this.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Reverse Bullrush sounds interesting, you could simply resolve it "as a bullrush" but with the ultimate direction being towards instead of away from the player. There's a lot of tactical utility there.

I think this may be the direction I take it in (no pun intended). Outside of teleportation spells/powers and the odd bullrush-specialized class, moving your enemy is a fairly rare power.

No offence taken; it just occurred to me that the most Monk-like features were already present on the main class for everyone to use. If the Cenobyte is going to be more "pure brawler" than any other brawler, one that makes better use of the base class features is one way to go about it.

The cenobite isn't quite "more 'pure brawler'", he's intended to be the stereotypical mystical hermit. Meditation, mental and bodily perfection, all that jazz. Except without the anti-materialist angle, because Vow of Poverty sucks.

Alright, expanding on this:

Are you including the fact that the Red Mage gets four fewer skills and a smaller hitdie than the Engineer into this consideration as well?

How does the Engineer compare against the Black Mage? Or the White Mage? The Blue Mage and the Green Mage?

If he's more versatile than primary spellcasters who are Low BAB, 2 Skillpoints and D6 HD, then I'm very much in the "Inventions get beaten heavily with the nerf-hammer" camp. If he's got more powerful options as well, then I'd be suggesting he gets 4 Skillpoints and a D6 HD, just to keep it reasonable.

I think with the planned changes to the invention system (i.e. toning down a few of the more egregious ones, adding a per-level preparation table, et cetera), it should be fine. A red (or black, or white, or green, or blue) mage gets 22+ spells per day and a 4th-level capstone. At least 5 of those are 3rd-level effects. An engineer tops out at around 9 inventions per day (6 at level 6, with 1 bonus invention from archetype, 1 from Jury Rigging, and 1 from Improvisation [pending changes to the ability]), only about 4 of which will be able to be 3rd-level effects, with 3 of those 4 restricted in one way or another. I think that the improved chassis is a worthwhile trade. The engineer is versatile in that he can be a healer one day, a bomber another, or a tank on one, but has trouble adapting to short-term problems. A red mage is a gish, pure and simple, each and every day, but can respond to threats with spontaneity.

Originally Posted by Eldest

Red Mage with the crafter archetype.

Only works for Magic Arms and Armor, though - only the Magewright can craft higher-level wondrous items.

Assuming an 18 Charisma, that's six minions at first level and sixteen at sixth. Not a bad progression. Will change.

Originally Posted by Kholai

Thinking on it, maybe it should be the cenobite who gets the armed flurry, not the Martial Artist? Martial Artist can certainly afford to lose it, whilst Cenobytes would benefit the most from having an armed flurry - possibly not even restricted to monk-only weapons as opposed to weapons they're proficient with.

Will consider.

Gladiator Level 6.

Full simple weapon proficiency, full martial weapon proficiency, and three exotic weapon proficiencies.
Light and Medium armour proficiency.
Shields (not specified to include Tower Shields).
Three flexible Fighter Feats.
Counts as a Level 6 Fighter (Meaning, I believe, Weapon Specialisation and not much else).
May reroll a single miss per encounter, cannot be disarmed, and weapon cannot be sundered (as ever, absolute immunity seems a little excessive, perhaps they could get a +Class Level as a bonus to resist sunder and disarm attempts with it?)
Modified Whirlwind attack, essentially targeting between two and three targets at full BAB.
May move 5' as a swift action.
May take 10' steps instead of 5' steps.

+6/+1 Attacks
+5/+2/+2 Saves
15-60 + Con HP
4 + Int Maxed skills.

Once per encounter:
Remove all non-lethal damage and a slew of effects, not including most mental ones.
Additional Full Attack as a swift action. The RAW does not grant an additional 5' step, so that's fine.
Ignore any one attack as an immediate action.

To me, that all sounds good.

Overall, the base chassis gives a lot less than the Brawler, who basically uses a Bastard Sword in each hand when they're level 6, attacks more often, has better saves, and with a Chain Shirt and 14 Int or Wis is getting AC equal to full plate (half of which applies to touch attacks). Has Evasion, moves faster, has Standard Action full attacks... And unarmed strikes can't be disarmed or sundered.

If it's the Battlefist, then they're even potentially doing Greatsword Strength-and-a-half damage. With reach.

And I almost forgot, they have pounce by default.

With this in mind, it may actually be fairer to make the Brawler medium BAB. It shouldn't greatly diminish the class, and will rein it in here. They'll still handily fulfil the mobile combatant archetype.

I'd prefer not to reduce the brawler's BAB, but you may be right that it needs to be reined in a little. Perhaps a slight reduction in unarmed damage , hit dice size, and the removal of light armor proficiency (forcing them to act more of a hit-and-run fighter, since they'd be a bit more fragile). I'd still like to keep them mobile with multiple attacks, since that's kind of the core idea of the standard 3.5 monk.

Rage 3x a day. "As a Barbarian of his class level" is slightly awkward, as a literal reading means that he may earn an additional Rage/day at level 4, but still gets the basic +4 Str/+4 Con/-2 AC and +2 Morale bonus to will saves.
Strength to Intimidate.
40' base speed, not slowed by wearing Medium armour.
May charge over difficult terrain and change direction up to 90 degrees whilst charging.
Pounce, and charge does not give an AC penalty.
DR of at least 2 + base con modifier/- whilst raging.
+6 untyped(?) bonus to Will saves against hostile mind-affecting effects whilst raging. Presumably stacks for a +10 Will save.

Not a big fan of rage, but it's a solid archetype, at least whilst raging. I'd even consider giving it an extra rage at level 6 as a minor boost.

Well, I need the barbarian represented somewhere (though I remain disappointed that the barbarian is represented solely by an archetype - almost every other base 3.5 class has its own adaptation of a class). Perhaps adding Rage to the base gladiator chassis (refluffed as some kind of battle frenzy), and making the brute the best at it, might not be a bad idea?

Kensei:

I won't go into the homebrew disciplines for fear of what I'll find.
6 Manoeuvres known.
4 Manoeuvres readied. Recovered with a swift action.
2 Stances known.
Largely irrelevant "WoC is always discipline weapon", but opens the potential for Shadow Blade Dex SAD with a few feats.... With an Elven Courtblade.
Immune to fear.
Maximises damage on successful crits, if the threat was from a natural 20.

I would be concerned that he was a little lackluster on the archetype traits, but manoeuvres make up all of that. This is pretty well balanced in my opinion.

Glad to hear it.

Master-At-Arms

Ignore metal-based DR.
Switch WoC as a swift action.
Basically free +4 to what I assume to be: Bullrush, Trip, Disarm, Feint, Sunder, Overrun, or Grapple. (I'm not sure if "Combat Manoeuvres" is a game term in D&D, but I think that's what it is in Pathfinder).
WoC is Keen and gets an extra x1 to its multiplier.

Subtle but potent, with his WoC (which is obviously pretty much always) he has the good half of every "Improved X" feat and is set up for easy specialisation into all of them. A Fullblade with a 17-20/x3 2D8 (with which they are proficient as one of their free proficiencies) or a 19-20/x4 Dwarven War Axe in each hand are both serious damage dealing options.

Sounds about right.

Pit Fighter
It should possibly change "connects" to "hits" with an AoO, I'm not sure if connecting is game terminology.

Take a 5' step every time an AoO hits.
Gives mages serious issues with Defensive Casting and keeping spells.
Full Attacks on every AoO.

AoO specialist, if it weren't for that awesome capstone I'd consider it a rather modest class after removing those more insane features.

For optimisation...
With Karmic Strike this guy gets to Full Attack anyone who hits him in melee.
With Hold the Line he gets to Full Attack anyone who charges him.
With Close Quarters Fighting he gets to Full Attack the Breathstealer (or anyone else) whenever he attempts to pull grapple shenanigans, and add the damage dealt as a bonus to resisting the grapple.
With Expert Tactician, if you hit with your first AoO of your Full Attack, you get an immediate +2 to hit with the second, and for the next round.

He basically gets the Double Hit feat for free if he TWFs.

For survival purposes, it's arguably worthwhile to drop two feats to pick up Stone Power for temporary hitpoints each round, or the Fey Heritage feats for DR 4/Cold Iron, since you'd be getting hit a lot, and Karmic doesn't care if you get hurt or not.

It may not be a bad idea to include a clause for the Major ability that "a pit fighter may only do so a number of times per round equal to his Dexterity modifier". Otherwise, I agree, looks fine.

Vindicator:

Skipped since he's getting potentially reworked. Conditional bonii aren't great, compared to the other archetypes he's a bit left out.

I feel the same way. I'm going to replace him with a half-casting red mage archetype.

Originally Posted by Eldest

However, the Brawler is much more likely to have a lower strength, and so hit less. Add in medium BAB and while not being at monk levels of suck, a brawler will hit far less often.

I do not plan on reducing the brawler's BAB.

Also, I would really prefer if the homebrew disciplines stayed in the base class design. I prefer them, to be honest, and as long as you have regular disciplines as alternatives it doesn't matter. And they actually are balanced.

It's probably best to leave that adjudication to individual groups, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

They where about the same in my independent playtest (not the short-lived one on the forum, and before the modification to the ability level order), the Engineer was about as versatile and powerful as a smart mage (who doesn't nova all the time); his powers are strong, but limited in uses and in versatility, and it is harder to make an Engineer that is good at more than one thing due to this.

Thank you for the practical example - it sounds as if the engineer is operating as intended, at least in this case.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Spoiler

Show

- Ok, a very small wall. Don't see the issue.

Indestructible Wall whose square area is one 5' square. Absolute, on-demand unbreakable cover. Free bridge or stepping stone. Interpose it between yourself and your opponent before walking away - they cannot follow, they must move 5' around, meaning they can't charge after you. Need to block a doorway? You have.

Freely available access to indestructible forcefields generated by level 5 spells is not appropriate for a level 1 manoeuvre.

- No issue here, if they are 30 feet away, in combat, and aren't just charging for a full attack they do need an option.

See Bruiser. You've now pretty much replaced their entire class feature with one manoeuvre. Also, why do they need yet another option when they're intentionally not fighting in melee? They could "use a bow", not "deal Greatsword + Str + Cha damage at 30'"

- 3.5 bonus damage. Not a big deal.

If you invest in Autohypnosios (not a bad thing to have), you have a 1D8 version instead.

Actual level of a stance that deals 1D6 of Fire damage to melee attacks for no disadvantage?
Level 6.

Mental Might, however, also works on ranged attacks.

I do not consider your idea of balance to be the same as my idea of balance.

- Fairly strong. But reach is just a feat away, anyway.

Yes, Reach is just a feat that gives you -1 to hit in melee as well away. Or this stance. At no drawbacks.

- +4 to AC verus an attack? Give me Wall of Blades any day.

If you're a brawler wearing a Chain Shirt, with an 18 Wisdom and only 10 Dex, you have 22 base AC. 26 with Adamant Will. You may use Adamant Will when flat footed.

Wall of Blades requires a roll, 1D20 + 6 BAB + Str or Dex Mod (let's assume +4). Mathematically, with no enhancements either way, you must roll a 12 to match the value of Adamant Blade.

- Not quite. Not really even close to as powerful as that sounds.

Actually it is. Pretty much exactly. Level 6 Soulknife can have a +1/+1 blade.

Fear: +2 to damage. Optional +10 bonus to intimidate checks.
Joy: +1 to all checks made with the blade.
Love: DC 12 + Wis to charm on hit for 2 PP? Nice actually, Charm Person is a level 1 spell, doing it as a side-effect to non-lethal isn't bad at all.
Sorrow: Ignore Morale bonuses - this basically means Inspire Competence, and can easily account for a +2 AC against a Poet/party. Optional Shaken on a DC 12 + Wis for the full encounter.
Wrath: +4 to confirm, power point fuelled Keen.

All of them count as +1 magic weapons. And may as well make it a Spiked Chain because you can make it anything you like.

These bonii? Forgettable, occasionally useful. The fact you have a +1 Enhancement weapon *on demand*? Yes, it really is that good. If you really want, get that Mental Might stance and you have your Psychokinetic enhancement bonus just like a real Soulknife.

You're welcome to disagree with me that it is imbalanced to have free access to a magic weapon at level 3 that cannot be found when you're searched, cannot be taken away from you, and reappears at no action cost if you're disarmed or it's sundered - For a feat for any class.

- +4 to int, that sounds like a feat.

A feat you get for free. That stacks with the actual feat. That you have no real penalty to having readied. So +8 total to initiative?

- But not this. That last one does sound OP.

Oh yeah, I just spotted this little gem: (Non-Swordsage adepts of the Sleeping Goddess discipline substitute their highest mental ability score for their Wisdom score when determining maneuver DCs)

So.... yeah, may as well go Intelligence for all those things.

However, the Brawler is much more likely to have a lower strength, and so hit less. Add in medium BAB and while not being at monk levels of suck, a brawler will hit far less often.

Challenge accepted.

Brawler with 16 Strength.

You're at a net -3 to hit against an 18 Strength Gladiator's first attack. Since you're flurrying, you're actually more likely to hit with attack #2 than you are attack #1.

Slap on an Enhancement of +2 and Weapon Focus for both.

+10/+10 vs +13/+7

Mithral Full Plate + 2, +2 Dex: 22 AC.
+2 Tower Shield: 28 AC.

Brawler has a 15% chance to hit, each hit.
72.5% chance to miss both.
Gladiator has a 30% chance to hit, and a 5% chance to hit.
66.5% chance to miss both.

A 6% chance against one of the best armoured targets you can hope to face is not "far less often".

In return, the Brawler gets a free undisarmable weapon, a better AC, Evasion, a better Ref save (at least), and frankly insurmountable SR on demand coupled with a decent self-heal is a whole lot better than anything else the Gladiator can come up with. I contend they would still be a very valid class.

If they're rebalanced in another way, that's fine, but they do need to be rebalanced.

The engineer is versatile in that he can be a healer one day, a bomber another, or a tank on one, but has trouble adapting to short-term problems.

I believe I may be in the minority here, but I honestly believe the invention part of the Engineer is distracting people from all the other things they can actually do rather well thank you.

Out of combat, he's in the role of the party trap handler, with decent scores in detection skills, artifice, appraisal (taking 10 reveals info about uncommon items), forgery and of course, the skills to make Alchemical items.

In his downtime, he makes things with Craft (Alchemy) like Auran Masks (Portable Waterbreathing/anti-toxin masks), Weapon Capsules (single use 1D6 Fire/Cold/Electricity damage or temporary ghost touch/silvered melee weapons - he makes these for his party mates), Screaming Flasks (1D8 Sonic plus deafness for 1 minute), Freeze and Razor Ice Powder, and of course, Alchemist's Fire, Tanglefoot Bags and Thunderstones, with a few Antitoxins just in case.

He can take 10 on Craft Alchemy checks for a result of 27, and make Craft (Poison) checks using his Craft Alchemy roll at -4 (I'll leave poison optimisation up to someone else). This is more than enough to make a DC 25 item every day, and harder items with a few buddies helping him (though a +5 competence bonus set of tools is apparently 2,500 GP or so and should cover most of it).

In combat, he can make a 5' square of difficult terrain as a standard action. If he hits a target with Alchemist's Fire, he can then use his Heavy Crossbow to deal fire damage for fire damage, dealing an additional 1D6 of damage, and setting them on fire for an extra 1D6 next turn, even if they doused themselves before getting hit.
Against mages, he can ready actions to throw thunderstones, disrupting their spell with a contested Concentration/Craft(Alchemy) check, in addition to being hit by a Thunderstone.

If he gets short on cash, he can sell these things at half their listed price for 12.5 GP profit a day thanks to only paying 25% on crafting items.

He can splash his waterskin across the floor and make slippery traps with Freeze powder, cover the square between him and his enemies with 1D4 + 1D6 hard to see Razor Ice. Since you can craft Traps with alchemical items incorporated, given prep time he can potentially set up traps with multiple Screaming Flasks and Thunder Stones activating in unison, then ready actions to set off this sonic deathzone whenever someone moves into range.

If he's feeling saucy, he can try to deny a lightly armoured mage his standard action by an aimed shot, using a smoke bomb to conceal and retreat if things don't go his way. He can stop a rampaging monster from charging him (well, by the current text it can actually charge, but not move - maybe this could be "does not get a move action next turn" as in Staggered or something? It's really hard finding wording for this).

He can climb anything with a DC 15 check or worse by taking 10, has a ranged touch attack at 5D8 damage, can make indefinite 2D8 cone attacks of Fire, Cold or Electrical damage with his Blunderbuss, or 1D10 damage of the same with his Heavy Crossbow.

Later, he can probably pick up Rapid Shot for the Blunderbuss with the rules as written, and if that gives him trouble, a Heavy Repeating Crossbow is only an EWP feat away for two shots a round full attacks with a swift reload.

So he's a full time trapfinder, lockpicker, who can appraise most things he picks up.
He makes valuable and useful items for the group, can basically pull off a level 3 spell non-magically for about 12.5 gp per person, has anti-caster functionality, has decent ranged attack options (and a lot of ways to avoid people getting near him), and has full access to a series of ranged splash weapons and a decent number of utility tools with a lot of different uses.
His toys include smoke bombs, making difficult terrain, booby traps, nausea causing gas attacks, clean, everlasting light supplies, water on demand, weightless sustenance as required, skill bonuses to a wide array of skills, curing of wounds, alleviating lost ability damage and lethal chemical attacks.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

While you bring up some very valid points, it seems that alchemical items are more problematic than the engineer himself. Throwing out the quick-crafting times and the 25% reduction in costs might go a ways towards reining that in.

And, just for the record, I would absolutely love to play that cannoneer. That sounds awesome.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Gnorman

While you bring up some very valid points, it seems that alchemical items are more problematic than the engineer himself. Throwing out the quick-crafting times and the 25% reduction in costs might go a ways towards reining that in.

And, just for the record, I would absolutely love to play that cannoneer. That sounds awesome.

Spoiler

Show

Thanks a lot! =) If you or anyone does want to play it, I'd recommend Quick Draw and Rapid Shot in short order - He can throw two Alchemist's Fires and the next turn shoot two targets with his Crossbow for "you're both on fire" shenanigans, which is 1D6+1 touch + 1D6 "on fire" + 1D10+1D6 ranged fire at -2 + another 1D6 of being on fire for 3D6 + 1D10 +1 each (and if they're near one another, they both take an extra +2 damage from splash).

So 3D6 + 1D10 +3 fire damage on two separate targets, 2D6 can be prevented if your targets lose their next two turns to do so.
Switching this to a single target this would be 2D6+2 +2D6 +2D10 +2D6 + 1D6 damage.

It takes Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Grenadier, Rapid Shot, and Mad Alchemist, so it's a bit of an investment, but an average 19 damage to two targets or 34 damage to a single target over three rounds (3-4 D6 of which doesn't involve actions on your part) with a non-magical Heavy Crossbow shooting what I assume to be laser beams or something is, frankly, awesome cool, even if it's not "Hit three times for 2D6+Str x 1.5".

The Master Alchemist feat from Pathfinder is another very valid choice for a would-be Engineer specialising in contact poisons.

I honestly don't believe this to be problematic at all. He's got 88 skill points - He should be using them, and quick, great crafting is their most interesting feature. As D-Naras says, if crafting anything becomes a problem (not that I believe DMs should ever arbitrarily mess with people playing intelligently with intelligent characters), then you can keep downtime to a minimum and force the Engineer into resource conservation, spending their downtime whenever they can.

The Engineer should be crafting things, he should be doing cool tricks with alchemical items (and has invested three feats into getting some neat tactical options from it), disabling gizmos and making poisons for his ranged touch attacks. This isn't separate from the Engineer - he makes them, they're as fundamentally "his" as his other inventions are and they're really (ranged touch attack Con-damage contact/injury poisons aside) very reasonable - 1D6s and 1D4s and entangle spells in a bag are all you get, and that's fine.

It's not his job to be the one dealing the damage, he's the skillful one, disrupting the enemy spellcaster with a Thunderstone to the face, setting up a lethal trap out of ten bottles of Acid set to drop on someone's head when they enter a room, gearing up his party against poison or water hazards, or giving them the chance for a +3D6 to damage for one round per battle, or being the guy that saves the day by Ghost Touching all their weapons when the Wraiths come by.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

So, in essence, what would your recommendation be for the engineer? Toning down the power and damage of his inventions? Fewer skill points and a smaller hit die? I'd be more inclined to the latter than the former.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Gnorman

So, in essence, what would your recommendation be for the engineer? Toning down the power and damage of his inventions? Fewer skill points and a smaller hit die? I'd be more inclined to the latter than the former.

It seems like you want a limited scope, non-magical "mage" type character - which is fine. I would honestly say bite the bullet and move him out of the Skilled Character section and into the mage section, drop skill points to 4 / level and drop The Knack. Leave him as a Trapfinder, and allow the Inventions to compete with - but not outclass - similar level spells in their types of effect.

Up the number of inventions per day up to

2 - -
3 - -
3 1 -
3 2 -
4 2 1
4 3 2

With the +1 invention / day making it 10 spells + Jury rig + Innovation. Some of those spells are basically permanent class features which offset the penalties, whilst he can still just about pull off a solid trapfinder role with 4+ Int.

I'll have a think about where I'd go in the other direction, see what I come out with.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Quick question or two; how many of those awesome things you listed were alchemical items, and thus availible to everyone, and what's to prevent the Engineer from making the items and giving them to others?

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Eldest

Quick question or two; how many of those awesome things you listed were alchemical items, and thus availible to everyone, and what's to prevent the Engineer from making the items and giving them to others?

Breaking it down:

Mad Alchemist allows Thunder Stones to be used as a readied action to give -2s to Attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 1 round, or disrupt spellcasting on an opposed skill check of Craft vs Concentration. It allows the Alchemist's Fire trick, for the net +2D6 fire damage. And it allows Tanglefoot Bags to made 5' squares of difficult terrain lasting ten minutes.

He needs to grab Least Dragonmark of Making and, if PF feats are allowed, Master Alchemist for the extra +4 to checks for making harder items with a take 10, which gives the chance at DC 40 Positoxins for anti-undead utility.
Crafting Traps is, due to the strange nature of trap creation, either something that anyone can pick up, or something all him.

Action Denial is Cannoneer. Smoke Bombs are essentially Smoke Sticks, so they're available to everyone anyway.
5D8 touch attacks are from Pocket Barrage. 2D8 15' cone attacks are Blunderbuss with Cannoneer's infinite ammo, and swift reload feature. Jury Rigging any bomb is Engineer only.
Pretty much everyone can get a Heavy Crossbow, but only he can pick an energy type to deal damage with it.
Climb Speed is Climbing Spurs for taking 10 +8 racial bonus to climb checks.

Curing wounds of specific energy types is alchemical, making water is alchemical, destroying metal with a touch attack ignoring hardness is alchemical, everlasting light sources are alchemical, a wide array of energy-type splash weapons are alchemical, negligible weight food is alchemical, nausea causing gas attacks are alchemical, lethal chemical attacks are still alchemical, and also poisons, as are lost ability score restoratives.

First part of the question: How much of those are available to other characters? This is down to DM fiat. Can you find an alchemist dealing with specific alchemical recipes in a certain town? Is that alchemist skilful enough to craft it?

Second part of the question: Even with the most permissive DM in the world, they are only available in at most quarter the quantity to all other characters, as the Engineer can make them in a seventh the time as anyone else, and at three quarters the cost that anyone else can make them at.

It's like an alchemical version of the Artificer, yes, they're available to everyone else. Sort of.

And yes, they definitely can give those things to other characters, and that's part of the advantage of the class.

If the party Pit Fighter drops all three Weapon Capsules (which are refillable with these alchemical doodads, and the triple applicator from memory is 475 GP) in a turn they full attack, swift full attack, and get an AoO full attack, then every hit that round they have 3D6 more damage purely thanks to the Engineer. Every time a member of the party uses the wineskin/frost-salts trick, it's because the Engineer allowed them to.

I'm sort of expecting the argument here that "as anyone can use them this means that the class isn't powerful or versatile at all, it's the items they're using". But I'll wait for such a claim to be made before I get into a discussion of that nature.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Kholai

It seems like you want a limited scope, non-magical "mage" type character - which is fine. I would honestly say bite the bullet and move him out of the Skilled Character section and into the mage section, drop skill points to 4 / level and drop The Knack. Leave him as a Trapfinder, and allow the Inventions to compete with - but not outclass - similar level spells in their types of effect.

Up the number of inventions per day up to

2 - -
3 - -
3 1 -
3 2 -
4 2 1
4 3 2

With the +1 invention / day making it 10 spells + Jury rig + Innovation. Some of those spells are basically permanent class features which offset the penalties, whilst he can still just about pull off a solid trapfinder role with 4+ Int.

I'll have a think about where I'd go in the other direction, see what I come out with.

Issues of symmetry aside, I don't want to drop the crafting element - as you said earlier, "quick, great crafting is their most interesting feature". It's a big part of what makes the engineer an engineer to me. Dropping it to 4 skill points a level, though, is more reasonable - after all, they're an Intelligence-based class, and they can take the hit. Eight skills maxed, let's see - Appraise, Craft (alchemy), Craft (trapmaking), Disable Device, Heal, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Open Lock, and Search, just as an example. That's a good selection, and forces the engineer to specialize somewhat.

Originally Posted by Zale

Fiendish Familiar appears to be cut off.

The black mage may replace a familiar with a ritual that takes 500

500g? Hours? Days?

500 gp. I guess I forgot to finish that.

Originally Posted by Eldest

Quick question or two; how many of those awesome things you listed were alchemical items, and thus availible to everyone, and what's to prevent the Engineer from making the items and giving them to others?

Originally Posted by Kholai

Breaking it down:

Mad Alchemist allows Thunder Stones to be used as a readied action to give -2s to Attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 1 round, or disrupt spellcasting on an opposed skill check of Craft vs Concentration. It allows the Alchemist's Fire trick, for the net +2D6 fire damage. And it allows Tanglefoot Bags to made 5' squares of difficult terrain lasting ten minutes.

He needs to grab Least Dragonmark of Making and, if PF feats are allowed, Master Alchemist for the extra +4 to checks for making harder items with a take 10, which gives the chance at DC 40 Positoxins for anti-undead utility.
Crafting Traps is, due to the strange nature of trap creation, either something that anyone can pick up, or something all him.

Action Denial is Cannoneer. Smoke Bombs are essentially Smoke Sticks, so they're available to everyone anyway.
5D8 touch attacks are from Pocket Barrage. 2D8 15' cone attacks are Blunderbuss with Cannoneer's infinite ammo, and swift reload feature. Jury Rigging any bomb is Engineer only.
Pretty much everyone can get a Heavy Crossbow, but only he can pick an energy type to deal damage with it.
Climb Speed is Climbing Spurs for taking 10 +8 racial bonus to climb checks.

Curing wounds of specific energy types is alchemical, making water is alchemical, destroying metal with a touch attack ignoring hardness is alchemical, everlasting light sources are alchemical, a wide array of energy-type splash weapons are alchemical, negligible weight food is alchemical, nausea causing gas attacks are alchemical, lethal chemical attacks are still alchemical, and also poisons, as are lost ability score restoratives.

First part of the question: How much of those are available to other characters? This is down to DM fiat. Can you find an alchemist dealing with specific alchemical recipes in a certain town? Is that alchemist skilful enough to craft it?

Second part of the question: Even with the most permissive DM in the world, they are only available in at most quarter the quantity to all other characters, as the Engineer can make them in a seventh the time as anyone else, and at three quarters the cost that anyone else can make them at.

It's like an alchemical version of the Artificer, yes, they're available to everyone else. Sort of.

And yes, they definitely can give those things to other characters, and that's part of the advantage of the class.

If the party Pit Fighter drops all three Weapon Capsules (which are refillable with these alchemical doodads, and the triple applicator from memory is 475 GP) in a turn they full attack, swift full attack, and get an AoO full attack, then every hit that round they have 3D6 more damage purely thanks to the Engineer. Every time a member of the party uses the wineskin/frost-salts trick, it's because the Engineer allowed them to.

I'm sort of expecting the argument here that "as anyone can use them this means that the class isn't powerful or versatile at all, it's the items they're using". But I'll wait for such a claim to be made before I get into a discussion of that nature.

I think we've already figured out that that argument doesn't work, as it is the engineer's crafting speed and efficiency that make the use of alchemical items such a valuable technique.

Proficiencies: The engineer is proficient with light armor and bucklers. He is proficient with simple weapons and the hand crossbow. He is always considered proficient with any invention he creates.

Archetype: At 1st level, the engineer chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

Inventor (Ex): An Engineer gains the ability to craft and use inventions. Inventions are limited use mechanical or alchemical items with a variety of extraordinary, though non-magical effects. Due to their complexity and need for maintenance, Inventions, unless otherwise noted, may only be used by the inventor who created them, and if they leave the Engineer's possession then they become non-functional after 1D4 hours and fall apart.

An Engineer has a pool of Craft Points equal to two times their Engineer level + their Intelligence modifier.

The Engineer begins play knowing three inventions, chosen from Field Lists according to their archetype. He may learn one additional invention at each new level. At level 1 he may only learn Minor Inventions, but may learn Moderate inventions at level 3 and Major Inventions at level 5. They begin play with one of each of these three inventions in their possession.

To create an invention for use, an Engineer must successfully Craft it using the appropriate craft skill. Only an Engineer may craft inventions, and inventions may not be created using magical spells or effects. Crafting Progress for creating a new invention is measured in days, not weeks, and an inventor never receives a -2 penalty for not having appropriate tools for crafting.

Minor Inventions have a Craft DC of 15, Moderate Inventions have a Craft DC of 20, and Major Inventions have a Craft DC of 25. So long as an inventor has access to their belongings, they are always considered to have the necessary materials on-hand to create their inventions.

An Engineer does not need to pay gold to craft an invention, instead they must pay 1 Craft Point for Minor, 2 Craft Points for Major, and 3 Craft Points for Major inventions. Multiply the craft point costs by 200 to determine the equivalent "SP cost" for crafting inventions. As inventions infamously never work once they leave the hands of their creators, inventions are considered worthless by anyone who has encountered one before.

Craft points used in this way are lost until the invention created is no longer in the Engineer's possession and becomes non-functional - most typically by having been used - at which point the Craft points used in the item are released for new creations. An Engineer may take one minute to dismantle an invention in order to recover all craft points used in its creation.

The DC of inventions which offer a save is equal to 10 + half the Engineer's class level + Intelligence Modifier.

Trapfinding (Ex): An Engineer can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Engineer's can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

An Engineer who beats a trapís DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

The Knack (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, an Engineer gains an insight bonus equal to half their class level to all Craft checks, and all Crafting Progress rolls for crafting items are measured in days, rather than weeks. An Engineer of 2nd level or higher may craft their inventions in hours, rather than days, by increasing the DC of the check by 10.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 2nd level, an Engineer gains an intuitive sense that alerts them to danger from traps, giving them a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the Engineer reaches 5th level,

Cross Study (Ex): At 3rd level, the Engineer may add one Moderate or Minor Invention of any Field to their inventions known, even Fields not normally permitted by their archetype, they may add another Major or Moderate invention to their spells known at level 6.

Jury Rig (Ex): At 4th level, once per day an Engineer may attempt to craft any invention they know with their crafting progress measured in Rounds. They may not take 10 on this check, and if they fail, their attempt fails and all progress is lost. An Engineer at 4th level no longer increases the DC by 10 in order to craft their inventions in hours.

Bombardier (Ex): At 4th level, an Engineer gains a +1 bonus to the Save DC, +1 bonus to hit and +2 bonus to damage with splash weapons. This bonus damage also applies to splash damage dealt.

Repurpose (Ex): At 5th level, once per encounter an Engineer may convert any invention they possess into another invention in the same field that they also know of the same grade or lower as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Improvisation (Ex): At 6th level, once per day an Engineer may attempt to fashion a device that replicates the effects of any invention of any field as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. In order to do so, they must pass a Craft check using any Craft skill of their choice against the Craft DC of the invention they wish to replicate, regardless of the craft skill normally associated with the invention in question. If they do not know the invention, the DC increases by 10. If this Craft check succeeds then the Engineer is left holding the invention and may activate it once or equip it as a free action at the end of the full round action. Regardless of the nature of the invention, it only lasts for 3 rounds plus the Engineer's Intelligence bonus, if any.

Inventions

Alchemy Field

Required Craft Skill: Alchemy

Minor

Hypno-Fog
Weight: 1 lb.
You can throw a cannister of Hypno Fog as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit causes the target to take 1d3 points of non-lethal damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of non-lethal damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target must make a Will save or be fascinated for 1D6 rounds. All creatures that took splash damage must make a Will save or become Dazzled for 1 round. Creatures that do not breathe are immune to this effect.
This is a mind-affecting poison effect.

Knock-Out Gas
Weight: 1 lb.
You can throw a cannister of Knock-Out Gas as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit causes the target to take 1d6 points of non-lethal damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of non-lethal damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target must make a Will save or fall asleep for 1D3 rounds. All creatures that took splash damage must make a Will save or become Fatigued for 1 round. Creatures that do not breathe are immune to this effect.
This is a mind-affecting poison effect.

Softening Agent
Weight: 1 lb.
You may apply Softening Agent as a standard action to a single unattended object or up to a 5' x 5' square area per application. This agent reduces the hardness and break DC of whatever it is applied to by 5 for the next minute. It has no effect upon creatures.

Cancastick
Weight: -
A cancastick is a small white stick made of a foul smelling toxic substance, with a small yellow "handle" to handle it safely. It may be used in melee touch attack which, if it hits, causes 1D4 acid damage that round, and for 1D4-1 rounds after. The following round, the target must make a Fortitude save or become sickened for the duration of the effect. A creature may take a Standard action to wipe off the substance to prevent any further damage being taken, though they remain sickened for the remainder of the duration. Once a cancastick successfully hits any target it is destroyed.

Moderate

Unstable Base
Weight: 1 lb.
You can throw a cannister of Unstable Base as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit causes the target to take 3d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1D6 points of acid damage from the splash unless they can make a Reflex save. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1D6 damage, whilst all creatures that took splash damage takes an additional 1 point of acid damage.

Flash-Freeze
Weight: 1 lb.
You can throw a cannister of Flash-Freeze as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit causes the target to take 2d6 points of cold damage and must make a fortitude save or be slowed, as per the slow spell, for 1D6 rounds. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of cold damage from the splash and must make a fortitude save or be fatigued for one round.

Itchistick
Weight: -
An itchistick is a small hollow rod containing a burning, itching powder. It may be used in melee touch attack which, if it hits, causes the rod to break and the powder to spray all over the target. For the next three rounds, the target is covered in an unbearable itching, burning sensation that, though it deals no damage interferes with any action that requires concentration, forcing them to make a DC 15 + the level of the spell they're casting (if any) + Engineer's Intelligence modifier in order to to succeed in the action. Submersion in water ends the effect prematurely.
This has no effect upon creatures immune to critical hits.

Scare Spray
Weight: 1 lb.
You can throw a cannister of Scare Spray as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
On a direct hit the target must make a Will save or be Frightened for 3 rounds. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits must make a Will save or be shaken for one round. Even if the Will Save is successful, the target takes a -1 Morale penalty to attack rolls for 1 round.
This is a mind effecting, fear poison effect.

Major

Here Growth Cream
Weight: 1 lb.
Here Growth Cream is a serum that, when applied as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, causes the user to increase in size as though effected by an Enlarge Person spell. The effect lasts for ten minutes. This cream may instead be applied to another willing target (or unwilling target who is helpless). A successful fortitude save negates the effect.

Here Reduction Cream
Weight: 1 lb.
Here Reduction Cream is a serum that, when applied as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, causes the user to increase in size as though effected by a Reduce Person spell. The effect lasts for ten minutes. This cream may instead be applied to another willing target (or unwilling target who is helpless). A successful fortitude save negates the effect.

Morvine Gel
Weight: -
Morvine Gel is a transparent tube filled with a clear, viscous liquid. It may be used in a melee touch attack which, if it hits causes the target to become stunned for 1 round unless they can make a Fortitude save. Even if they make the fortitude save, the target is sickened for 1 round. If the melee touch attack misses, the Morvine Gel is wasted.
This is a poison effect.

Virulent Microbe
Weight: 1 lb.
A Virulent Microbe is a short stick with a brown sludge smeared upon one end. It may be used in a melee touch attack which, if it hits infects the target with the user's choice of either Blinding Sickness, Cackle Fever, Filth Fever, Mindfire, Red Ache, Shakes or Slimy Doom unless they make a Fortitude save. The incubation period is measured in rounds rather than days.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

I'm sort of expecting the argument here that "as anyone can use them this means that the class isn't powerful or versatile at all, it's the items they're using". But I'll wait for such a claim to be made before I get into a discussion of that nature.

I was going in that direction, but not exactly. I was going to suggest instead that the reduced gold cost be removed, instead giving a little bit of "virtual gold", ala the artificier's Crafting points, that can be used to make alchemetical items per day. Combo that with a reduced number of inventions, and the Engineer can use inventions for big issues and whip up little items for smaller problems. My issue with your version is that it has a inventions known, which I dislike because I like that the engineer can adjust from day to day. I'll let you address that before I put up more stuff.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Eldest

I was going in that direction, but not exactly. I was going to suggest instead that the reduced gold cost be removed, instead giving a little bit of "virtual gold", ala the artificier's Crafting points, that can be used to make alchemetical items per day. Combo that with a reduced number of inventions, and the Engineer can use inventions for big issues and whip up little items for smaller problems.

Interesting possibility, like an inbuilt Unearthed Arcana benefit?

My issue with your version is that it has a inventions known, which I dislike because I like that the engineer can adjust from day to day. I'll let you address that before I put up more stuff.

1: The Crafting Engineer has no restriction on the number of inventions they can make.

In order to prepare from day to day, they can spend downtime to craft new materials. At hourly rates of progress, they should be able to squeeze in two or more inventions a day in the time they're getting ready for bed, or taking turns at watch, or are an elf and get four hours extra just for crafting.

Thusly the Crafting Engineer can adjust from day to day by making different selections from their inventions known in any combination. Facing trolls? Make a lot of Unstable Bases. Expecting a rough combat? Load up on Healing stuff. Fighting spellcasters? Make more itchisticks.

Wizards, outside of the theoretical, do not have infinite spells to choose from, they have spells known and choose those which to use. With ten known inventions on top of their pre-existent utility, they have more scope to change their abilities for the following day than any other non-mage class (who themselves are less changing themselves, more having a bigger pool to choose from in the first place).

2: Variety

If a mage uses five fireballs at midnight, they don't get new spells unless they rest for eight solid hours, then prepped spells. If they use five fireballs and six magic missiles, then eight hours later they get all eleven back.

If a Crafting Engineer uses five Pocket Bombards and then spends an hour downtime, they get one Pocket Bombard back. Eight hours rest, assuming two hours downtime not spent sleeping? They only get two back.

An Engineer who novas an entire inventory of expendables will have a bit longer to recover than a mage, but they do not need to rest to do so.

An Engineer who invests heavily into reusable items, and will get that benefit all day long without expending a thing.

With Repurpose the Engineer can change a prepared invention into something else on the fly. With Improvisation, they basically have an anyspell effect they can access once a day.

3: Variety Again.

Why does every Engineer know every possible "invention" ever? What ultimate difference is there between two different engineers when they've neither of them got anything the other can't do?

Thematically, Engineers are inventors, that means they come up with things, which in turn means that they must have things that other inventors do not. With a limited number of inventions they know, each of those inventions (short of retraining) is unique to them.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Originally Posted by Kholai

Thematically, Engineers are inventors, that means they come up with things, which in turn means that they must have things that other inventors do not. With a limited number of inventions they know, each of those inventions (short of retraining) is unique to them.

Ok, so long as you have a built-in retraining mechanism, I think I'd be good with it. But otherwise, at level six you are stuck with your inventions you chose for the rest of the game.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

I don't want to be abrasive, but I'm going to argue a little bit about some of these changes, because in looking through Kholai and Eldest's various discussions, I get the idea that both of you are approaching this from such an extreme powergamer angle that it becomes completely irrelevant to discuss. While optimization is part of D&D, at the highest levels it simply becomes asinine. Especially considering that Kholai's proposed Engineer hugely complicates the Engineer in order to get around a fairly minor balance issue. Alright, maybe not fairly minor, but still, I think reducing complication is one of the reasons people play E6 in the first place. The proposed change to Engineer creates a weirdly fused skill and point based system that, while balanced, would be hell to figure out for an unskilled player. I see no reason why E6 should be an advanced way to play Dungeons and Dragons, rather than a simplified way.

Also, as a DM, if my players tried to pull half of the crap you described in reasoning why the Engineer is more powerful, I would shut them down faster than you can say "overpowered". I think that, instead of tweaking each and every class so that they cannot be more powerful than others, you leave those extremely unlikely and rare cases where someone breaks the game in the hands of the individuals who run games using these classes. Some tweaking is necessary, but D&D isn't played in a vacuum. There are people on both ends, and if some DM allows one player to abuse the system, he isn't a good one.

I'm running an E6 game right now using this system, with some relatively new players. I have trouble getting them to use Vancian magic, as they'd rather just use the simpler attack system. I don't want them being discouraged from the Engineer class because it got "balanced", into a system that takes knowing the entire system of crafting, and several other books worth of alchemical items to effectively use.

"Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Any changes of that magnitude to the engineer will not be undertaken without some serious time and consideration, though I am very much impressed by your efforts and arguments. Right now, I'd like to concentrate on shoring up the hunter, zealot, sentinel, and noble, as well as fine-tuning a few of the archetypes.

Bit of a change for the black mage, too: Fiendish Familiar and Minion Mastery have been swapped, and Fiendish Familiar overhauled somewhat. I've spelled out the valid choices for familiars in the ability - some of them may be a bit much, please let me know if you see one you think is patently overpowered. The shadow and the wight may be pushing it.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Ok, so long as you have a built-in retraining mechanism, I think I'd be good with it. But otherwise, at level six you are stuck with your inventions you chose for the rest of the game.

I believe retraining should always be an option - after all, you're stuck with your assigned skills for the rest of the game too.

Originally Posted by Conor77

I don't want to be abrasive, but I'm going to argue a little bit about some of these changes, because in looking through Kholai and Eldest's various discussions, I get the idea that both of you are approaching this from such an extreme powergamer angle that it becomes completely irrelevant to discuss.

You're welcome to your opinion, however I'm not quite sure how I'm approaching this from a powergamer angle at all, mechanical, certainly, but nothing I've mentioned (apart from flagrant loopholes that just need closing) moves towards extreme character optimisation of any sort.

Would you mind providing some examples?

While optimization is part of D&D, at the highest levels it simply becomes asinine. Especially considering that Kholai's proposed Engineer hugely complicates the Engineer in order to get around a fairly minor balance issue.

I'm sure you appreciate the inherent idea of a primary caster (which the Engineer really sort of is) with awesome (6+!) skills and a medium BAB is something that needs work just as assuredly as the Brawler being consistently better than the Gladiator in pretty much everything needs work.

This is a thematic alternative dedicated to improving the use of a skill the class was already keyed off of, rather than lessening the class' ability to use skills. The same can be achieved by reducing the potency of inventions.

My proposition is that the Engineer can use a relevant craft skill to produce a number of usable items, freely selectable by themselves, whilst having a maximum number of these limited by their class level. Ideally this is no more complicated than the crafting system: Roll against a DC, measure progress, get item in that amount of time.

This could be simplified to:

- The Engineer may have prepared a number of inventions equal to their class level + intelligence modifier.
- Each invention only counts as "1" invention by default, regardless of "grade". Certain inventions will only count as 1/2 inventions, such as consumables. Some will explicitly count as 2 inventions, handled in the item text itself.
- Each invention has a craft DC on how difficult and how "expensive" it is to make, even though the Engineer never needs to pay that amount.
- Each invention requires a certain number of other inventions known in the discipline, but can be learned at any level.
- They still learn 3 inventions at level 1, plus 1 per level. At least 1 of the starting inventions must be in their archetype speciality.
- They are no longer constrained to their archetype disciplines, and may learn inventions from any field.

No points, just simple crafting checks every night, which they can take 10 on most of the time. A class that specialises in crafting its own tools and equipment.

As a logical extension, inventions would be items, and handled as such, rather than the hammer space thing method, they may be confiscated, sundered, or lost.
As items, they can be produced in any particular quantity (up to ~10) without arbitrary limitations on how many they can have at once.

Rebalancing of the engineer could potentially happen just by incorporating reasonable, comprehensive changes

Correct, a rebalancing of their spell-equivalents a non-vancian equivalent would be perfectly valid. Anything that reduces them to a level where they are on par with other Skilled classes.

If people are really that interested, I'd be happy to work on the other invention fields to that effect when we revisit the engineer at a later date.

I see no reason why E6 should be an advanced way to play Dungeons and Dragons, rather than a simplified way.

Not accusing you of this, but: "E6 should not give powerful abilities to all classes just in case the player can't be bothered to use their given class abilities to good effect."

The Engineer, as demonstrated, is able to craft themselves an immense arsenal of alchemical items, poisons and other consumables in short order, is not a bad combatant at all, and fulfils one of the four party roles. The fact that the inventions on top of all this are pretty well overkill is the problem we've been circling around for most of this.

Also, as a DM, if my players tried to pull half of the crap you described in reasoning why the Engineer is more powerful, I would shut them down faster than you can say "overpowered".

Are you saying the intelligent usage of alchemical items is overpowered? It would be appreciated if you could indicate the particulars you have a problem with, because I've not done anything beyond use a single feat and craft items that, as Eldest has pointed out, could be purchased by anyone.

I think that, instead of tweaking each and every class so that they cannot be more powerful than others, you leave those extremely unlikely and rare cases where someone breaks the game in the hands of the individuals who run games using these classes.

Relying on the DM to enforce class balance that could be achieved mechanically is not an optimal design goal. Every class should be fun to play and have things they can do without being consistently overshadowed.

The Engineer isn't "potentially more powerful" than the Scoundrel; they're consistently and routinely better than them in a large number of situations with the only possible exception being maybe the initiator, in and out of combat. They're not "potentially more versatile" than the Red Mage, they're consistently and routinely bringing more options to the table than the Red Mage can.

Breaking the game needs to be avoided, but so does having one class gets consistently more spotlight. This is why Tier 3 is the goal.

Primary party roles: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief.

The Engineer is a Thief who can blast like a mage and heal and support like a cleric, whilst still being a full-scale Thief.

I'm running an E6 game right now using this system, with some relatively new players. I have trouble getting them to use Vancian magic, as they'd rather just use the simpler attack system. I don't want them being discouraged from the Engineer class because it got "balanced", into a system that takes knowing the entire system of crafting, and several other books worth of alchemical items to effectively use.

Core alchemy plus one feat in the PHB II: The Engineer is able to make difficult terrain on demand, deal his bonus fire damage with alchemist's fires or lantern oils (given the feat wording of "Weapon Attack or Spell" to cause damage, this covers breath Weapon, splash Weapon or the like, giving ultimately +1D6 bonus to each Alchemist's fire after the first on a direct hit, not too powerful per se, but a nice and flavourful boost), disrupt spellcasters with contested Concentration versus Craft rolls (with the Engineer reasonably expecting to have at least +3 advantage compared to the mage at level 6), or give great debuffs to non-casters with opposed Will Save versus Craft rolls (almost guaranteed -2 Atk, Saves and Skill Checks).

Water Breathing Auran masks I believe are in Complete Scoundrel or Complete Adventurer, as are Weapon Capsules. I do not consider the Complete series to be esoteric.

With one book - Frostburn, you get to make ice on demand (though you could do the same things with oil which is 1 SP), and 1D6+1D4 traps with Razor Ice. Neither is hugely necessary.

For the record, no, none of this is overpowered whatsoever, nor even close to what I'd consider serious char-op; Even with the more out-of-the-box uses. Reward players doing clever things with mundane items and you'll probably develop cleverer players.

In any case, if your players don't have a mastery of the flanking, feint, bluff system and never sneak attack with their Rogue, this doesn't mean that the class should be balanced around their failure to do so.

Any changes of that magnitude to the engineer will not be undertaken without some serious time and consideration, though I am very much impressed by your efforts and arguments. Right now, I'd like to concentrate on shoring up the hunter, zealot, sentinel, and noble, as well as fine-tuning a few of the archetypes.

No problem, apart from clearing up any current discussions on the matter I'll drop this and continue with running through the "by level 6" considerations. If you don't mind I'd like to visit it again once the classes are more complete.

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

My problem was that most of the alchemical items you cited were from various other sources. That, and the fact that you don't seem to consider how you describe the example classes you make as "extreme character optimization". While I do agree that class balance is important, and I thank you for doing your part to help with that, it is not a problem with my players not playing intelligently, but rather that they have neither the time nor inclination nor money to buy or find other books online to download or purchase. They don't have the PHBII, and they don't want it. I can pull a feat from it for them, but if they don't know that feat exists, why would they want it? They deal mostly with what is provided for them by the classes set forth, and the core rulebooks that they had no problem in obtaining. I see your argument, I really do. Classes need to be balanced. But they need to be balanced for everyone, not just people who know exactly how much extra damage an increased crit threat means, and have every book with every alchemical item in them. I knew what an Auran mask was before you posted about it. All they know are the 7-9 basic alchemical items that are described in the PHB. I'm just saying, not everyone knows the rules system like you do, and not everyone has your access to books. I'd appreciate if you kept that in mind, while discussing this.

"Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens