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Theism Has Its Place

Submitted by rationalmormon on October 28, 2006 - 3:41am.

Theism has its place.

Theism has its place. Take the Mormon religion (I think it’s particularly kickass). Its people are happy and kind to others. They’re taught to be not fight, not to kill. They’re taught not to be selfish, not to be greedy. They’re taught to be loyal, they’re taught to be good mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters. They are taught, in general, to be love everyone as much as they love themselves. They are taught to be clean, to work hard, and to be honest.

What is wrong with this? Morals given and a reason to follow them, sounds good to me even if I didn’t think the doctrine was true, even if I didn’t think God existed.

Some times its members are stupid (as some times members of every organization ever created and every organization that will be created will be stupid. People are some times stupid and anything that has people in it will have to deal with that.) and they think they are better than other people, but its leaders quickly rebuke them.

I am so happy with my father who doesn’t get drunk and beat my mother, or cheat on my mother, my mother who doesn’t do any of that crap, things everyone knows is wrong. …my family is just happy. And even though these values are encoded into us (so everybody knows them, at least deep down inside) they are reinforced in our religion, and we’re very, very happy.

Of course, when you think your God tells you to go kill people or blow up buildings, you have a real problem. When you think your God tells you to “love thy neighbor as thy self”, I think you’re just fine.

Oh and on a writing note alone, think constructive criticism here, your blog might sound better if you didn't state the same thing at the bottom that you stated in the beginning. Really it gives off a 'kidish I have something important to say everybody listen up' feel. I think re-stating would be the way to go. Although if you write the blog as a poem you could get away with it.

Theism has its place. Take the Mormon religion (I think it’s particularly kickass). Its people are happy and kind to others. They’re taught to be not fight, not to kill. They’re taught not to be selfish, not to be greedy. They’re taught to be loyal, they’re taught to be good mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters. They are taught, in general, to be love everyone as much as they love themselves. They are taught to be clean, to work hard, and to be honest.

All of those things can be taught without religion.

rationalmormon wrote:

I am so happy with my father who doesn’t get drunk and beat my mother, or cheat on my mother, my mother who doesn’t do any of that crap, things everyone knows is wrong. …my family is just happy. And even though these values are encoded into us (so everybody knows them, at least deep down inside) they are reinforced in our religion, and we’re very, very happy.

I don't think there really is a common definition of right and wrong, nor do I think that we are encoded with such knowledge. I do think that we have instinctual tendencies to do things to preserve others that we perceive as closely related to us, but that does not mean that we do so based on a concept of right and wrong. In fact, I have an idea that what I think is right and wrong is probably different from what you think is right and wrong. Also, people can be and often are very, very happy outside of religion.

rationalmormon wrote:

Of course, when you think your God tells you to go kill people or blow up buildings, you have a real problem. When you think your God tells you to “love thy neighbor as thy self”, I think you’re just fine.

People can come to the conclusion to love others without religion. Religion doesn't necesarily drive people to that conclusion. Think of it this way, if you suddenly realized tomorrow that your god could not possibly be real, would you still love others?

Most of the people on this forum that I have interacted with are very kind and even loving people and are willing to help out others when they can. They don't rely on religion to motivate them to do so.

In a way, this kind of argument is encouraging to me. By one line of thought, it is sort of a last, desperate plea. It's like saying, "Ok, religion is irrational, and lots of stupid and horrible things are done by the religious, but there's still room for little old me, isn't there? I don't hurt anyone!"

The fact is, religion is, unequivocally, the last refuge of the irrational. To believe in religion is to say that one does not credit humanity with the ability to think rationally -- that some truth must be obtained from some unapproachable, incomprehensible force or being. It is also a way to justify the unjustifiable. Even the "harmless" religions, by admitting that there are such things as "unknowable truths" leaves plenty of shit on the ground for the seeds of militant religion to grow.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

Did you consider that maybe by saying all this you might upset some people by implying atheists are not good people? I'm not hurt, just dismayed to think that some people(probably not you) automaticallly hold the default assumption that "religious people = good and nonreligious people = bad".

I'm really glad you had a good upbringing, but that's on a person by person basis. I've known incredibly wonderful atheist parents(my boyfriends parents for instance), and some terribly awful theist parents(a friend in high school's abusive father who used the bible to justify his beatings while his mother looked on in submission). My family life's been up and down, and as far as I know, my parents are agnostic. We've never discussed it except once when I was in grade 6 when my mother told me that christians didn't believe in evolution.

"Theism has it's place"

I can't help but feel that all of that stuff you mentioned is completely separate from belief in a deity.
I look at my boyfriends little neices and nephews, third generation atheists, and see that they are all sweet kids. They care about each other and the world, and the older ones have intense social consciences. They are "happy and kind to others. Their parents teach them not to fight, not to kill. They’re taught not to be selfish, not to be greedy. They’re taught to be loyal, they’re taught to be good mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters. They are taught, in general, to love everyone as much as they love themselves. They are taught to be clean, to work hard, and to be honest."
They don't need any gods as a made up reason. They have perfectly valid real life reasons to do ALL these things. Not to hurt people, not to hurt people's feelings, to make the world we inhabit a better place, to show people you love that you care about them.

Why would any rational person raise a child to be a hateful, dishonest bad person? No one likes hateful, dishonest bad people. Atheist OR theist.

Even if some religions are, as you say, harmless, why believe in something with no evidence?

For those of you who said you know some extremely immoral mormons: i'm glad you believe in morals. but why do you?->i think it is because it is in your bones, everyone’s bones.
For those of you who made fun of my writing: what is the point of that? I think you are being foolish.
For those of you who would not even consider the possibility that religion can help people be better people, please consider the possibility. If you don’t think it’s possible, I’ll probably first call you a silly name, and then I’ll show you how does.
For those of you who accused me of thinking atheists were evil people: you should re-read this blog.

For those of you who said you know some extremely immoral mormons: i'm glad you believe in morals. but why do you?->i think it is because it is in your bones, everyone’s bones.

That is kind of an odd statement. I have heard Dawkins has an idea about how morals could have come from the evolution of societies. AskTheAtheist also has an answer. I think the higher forms of morals lie with empathy and reason, but morality is a tricky subject if you can't just say god did it.

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For those of you who made fun of my writing: what is the point of that? I think you are being foolish.

I wasn't making fun of your writing I was suggesting how you could easily make your writing sound 10x better with only one quick change. Note: constructive criticism.

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For those of you who would not even consider the possibility that religion can help people be better people, please consider the possibility. If you don’t think it’s possible, I’ll probably first call you a silly name, and then I’ll show you how does.

I have considered the possibility and I have come to the conclusion that the only people it helps are those too weak to control themselves without the idea of punishment and rewards. Now this may give off the idea that all the religious are weak, but that really wasn't the intent of the message as I talk about who it would help. I would hope that most people are smart enough to have morals without a sky daddy, but maybe people have become addicted to the placebo...

I'm sorry you feel like you've been made fun of. I don't think you're correct, though. I've read the whole thread, and I've detected intense disagreement with your ideas, but I don't think anyone was making fun of you.

Anyway, here's some more disagreement, conveyed with as much respect as possible.

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For those of you who said you know some extremely immoral mormons: i'm glad you believe in morals. but why do you?->i think it is because it is in your bones, everyone’s bones.

Yes! You're right. It is in our bones, in the sense that it's an instinct our species developed through long years of evolution. All social animals have morals. Even lowly bees have "police bees" that go around the hive making sure no females are trying to usurp the rightful place of the queen bee.

We, however, are the only species that developed a complex enough intellect to invent stories to explain where our morals came from.

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For those of you who would not even consider the possibility that religion can help people be better people, please consider the possibility. If you don’t think it’s possible, I’ll probably first call you a silly name, and then I’ll show you how does.

What? You'll make fun of us? Does the pot call the kettle black? Now I might be poking a little fun at you. Shame on you.

I don't think anyone here has said that believing in a religion could not help people be better. We've all tried to help you understand that A) religion is completely unnecessary, and B) religion OFTEN inspires people to be worse people. Therefore, we would just rather see it go away.

If i didn't like to poke fun and... get poked fun?...of... well, i wouldn't be here.

And yes, religion is often set up for weak and stupid so they can be great too. But if you have the right religion, one of the more intense religions, you can influence a great person to be truly brilliant. Oh baby.

See, here's where the problem is. A religion is a myth that people made up to explain things that they didn't understand. Put another way:

Religion is a myth that promotes ignorance and irrationality.

That's any religion. I know that's a bold statement, but follow me for a minute. If we want to explain something about the world, we do one of two things. We either turn to science, and try to learn through empirical evidence, or we turn to metaphysics (the supernatural, religion, etc...) which is a myth. Since a myth based entirely on science would no longer be a myth, logically, myth HAS to be opposed to science.

So even if it's a completely innocuous myth, it's not reasonable or rational to base childrens' education on it, and it's certainly not reasonable for an adult to spurn reason for myth.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

What if you use both religion and science? i believe god used science, only science, no voodoo to create everything.
Use science fully, and when you don't know, do what your heart tells you.

...wow...that sounded cheesy. but that's what i do, yo.

and for children's education, you got to let them decide if they believe in god themselves, or else they will never know. you teach children what you know is true, and what you think will help them be happier, and let them decide if they believe you, especially when they're teenagers.

From our point of view voodoo, mormonism, christianty, islam, scientology, paganism, wiccan, or whatever else is floating around is equal on the logic/reasoning department, in the red.

To me it sounds like you want to say do science till science can't give you an answer. However the more science explains our world the less religion has a place. At some point religion will get cast aside and people will have to answer questions using logic and reason alone. I think this would be a step forward in human development, but isn't the answer to everything in the sense that working for the answer alone isn't the answer.

For children aspect I am torn. I wish them to find reason on there own as that is far more rewarding then being told reason, but I fear they will fall into a trap of bad logic and scare tactics. I guess I just answered my own question here... Teach them logic, basic reasoning, and what never counts as a good reason.

"To me it sounds like you want to say do science till science can't give you an answer. However the more science explains our world the less religion has a place."

I disagree. What I believe makes God, God, is His infinite knowledge. He understands science and all manner of learning to the fullest (i think He's had a while to get all that knowledge) and he uses that knowledge to do what he does. He follows all laws, including the laws of physics, and he uses them to get done what needs to get done. This is something that is rarely understood about God, and that is a huge loss and a crying shame.

When a child asks, "Dad, why is X like Y?" and it's a question that science has not answered yet, you can say, "Well, child, we don't know the answer to that yet. Maybe when you get older, you can be a scientist and figure out the answer to that."

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He follows all laws, including the laws of physics, and he uses them to get done what needs to get done.

I'm just going to point out that if you're serious about this, it is the most illogical statement you've made yet. If he is a completely lawful being that obeys the laws of nature, then he is quantifiable and testable. Period. There's no way to get around that simple truth. You will have to say that he is not bound by science, and then we'll just be back to step one.

Understand, I get where you're going with this. From there, you can say, "If we haven't figured out the science necessary to test god, it doesn't mean that he doesn't follow it."

Here's the ultimate problem with that line of thought. Science isn't just about electrons and quarks and particle acceleration. The whole discipline is based on very simple laws of logic. Without logic, there is no science. The concept of a supernatural being defies logic. Therefore, it cannot be scientific.

For a deity to get around this, he'd have to change the laws of logic, which means not obeying his own laws.

Ok... From here, you can say, "Just because we don't understand a higher form of logic doesn't mean god can't operate on it."

Here you run into exactly the same problem as before. Logic is not something that can be tampered with that way. Logic isn't a science in the same way that physics is. Logic is simply the observation and organization of existence. It's looking at the world and starting with things that MUST be, and working up. We start with A=A. You don't make improvements on this statement, or do experiments to lower your margin of error. This statement is the beginning of rationality, and can't be tampered with without changing reality into something unquantifiable. A statement simply is, or is not, logical.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

But, God follows all laws of science; He is in all laws of science. He uses all laws and logic. It's hard to understand, i know.

Ok, you said, "If he is a completely lawful being that obeys the laws of nature, then he is quantifiable and testable." He is.

So what do you mean by “quantifiable”?

For quantity, there is only one God. For testing, well of course you have to test it.

Here's a scripture I believe in. It's from the book of mormon

• Moroni . 10: 4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the truth of all things.

All things, yo. And so much of my church is directed to educating people in things other than God, because knowing God is almost no good if you know nothing else...in fact I’m pretty sure you can’t know God if you don’t know anything else. It takes a degree of intelligence to know God. That might be why you hate stupid Christians, and use them for your examples and movies. I watched that God movie…and gosh those people are retarded. Try using current Mormon authorities, yo. It won't work.

You claim that god is quantifiable, and obeys all the laws of physics. Please produce for me a scientific test that allows me to prove objectively that god exists. (By the way, a book that says he exists is not a quantifiable proof. I have books that say that unicorns exist.)

If there is no such test, then god is not quantifiable, and you are wrong.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

There's a whole lot ways to test it, but the surest way to succeed is, obviously, a little demanding. Though, you do seem like the educated type of person who doesn’t mind reading. Well, this how I got my sure answer; I read the Book of Mormon, pondered about it, and then I asked God if He was there, and it really is strange how real the answer can be, even though He’s not there in the sense our bodies understand (but our souls do). So, if you’re really interested to know if He’s there, you can read it without buying it at lds.org and click on the link that says scriptures. But I also like debating, so if you find something you don’t like, tell me and we can have a fun time.

And if you don't feel anything good about it, then that'll make our conversations all the more interesting.

I read the Book of Mormon, pondered about it, and then I asked God if He was there, and it really is strange how real the answer can be, even though He’s not there in the sense our bodies understand (but our souls do).

Do you realize what this sounds like to us?

I read a book -> I asked god if he was there -> I got a feeling -> god is real

If you try to prove anything else that way people are going to look at you like you are crazy.

I read a book -> I asked fairies if they were there -> I got a feeling -> fairies are real

For those of you who said you know some extremely immoral mormons: i'm glad you believe in morals. but why do you?->i think it is because it is in your bones, everyone’s bones.

Morals come from the brain. I don't think everyone has "morals," necesarily, or at least they probably don't have morals in the sense that you think of morals. For example, nihilists often base their interactions (and even their morals) on the basis that their actions ultimately will not matter in the greater scheme of things. Other schools of thought base their morals on different philosophies like humanism. This diversity in thought in regards to moral behavior leads me to believe that there isn't necesarily an innate moral system, but there is instead an instinctual drive to do what protects the individual and those that are most closely associated with them. Evolutionarliy speaking, we are creatures that do what it takes to protect and preserve the genetic strands that we posess and that are closest to us. In doing so, it may seem like there is some cognitive moral fiber at work, but in reality, we often can't say if that is the case.

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For those of you who would not even consider the possibility that religion can help people be better people, please consider the possibility. If you don’t think it’s possible, I’ll probably first call you a silly name, and then I’ll show you how does.

The point is not really that religion cannot have any possibility of helping make better people, it is that we can point to other social structures that can do the same or better at improving people than religion seems to. Part of the problem is, when I teach my children particular behaviors that I think will help them out and make them into good people, I don't introduce excess things that can also be detrimental. Things such as teaching others to put religion before particular types of critical thinking, asking them to sacrifice something to their religion that could benefit them or others better if they did something else with it, teaching them things that are erroneous historically or scientifically, etc. Those are all things that religion often does. While we are well aware of religious charities and teachings that may be positive in some sense - we are also aware of the maladaptive side of religion and we seek out ways to pass on knowledge and helpful traits to children and others without the use of religion and with the use of tools that we don't see such drastic side-effects from.

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For those of you who accused me of thinking atheists were evil people: you should re-read this blog.

Many of us are used to people calling us evil. We're used to being accused of having no morals, of being murderers, of being satanists, of being any number of things that society deems as being an indicator of lower human moral and social value. To me, your blog seems more like a plea than anything, and so I shall treat it as such.

rationalmormon wrote:

If i didn't like to poke fun and... get poked fun?...of... well, i wouldn't be here.

when I first read that, the first thing that jumped into my head was, "we've got a budding sado-masochist here .... heh, jk. I'm guessing that you have more motivation to be here than getting poked fun of.

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And yes, religion is often set up for weak and stupid so they can be great too. But if you have the right religion, one of the more intense religions, you can influence a great person to be truly brilliant. Oh baby.

The big problem being, most religions have their dark spots, if not all. Even one of the most peaceful religions most scholars have heard of (Buddhism) has had its dark moments in history (the advantage that they have is, Buddhism encourages critical thinking and often can point out its own flaws with little to no retaliation, depending on the buddhist sect you are looking at). Even so, teaching a great person to be brilliant can happen without religion entirely, and you don't have to ask that person to put away critical thinking skills, you don't have to manipulate them, and you can give them more options when you do it without religion.

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What if you use both religion and science? i believe god used science, only science, no voodoo to create everything.
Use science fully, and when you don't know, do what your heart tells you.

Were that the case, God would really be no more advanced than you or I, especially if we considered your religion. According to your religion, God already has many human traits - if he used science to do all that he has done, then that brings him right down to where we are, logically. So if God is so much like you or I, why have a religion, and why worship? Why even assume that he is a deity? That doesn't make sense.

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and for children's education, you got to let them decide if they believe in god themselves, or else they will never know. you teach children what you know is true, and what you think will help them be happier, and let them decide if they believe you, especially when they're teenagers.

In teaching my children what I know, it is a natrual side-effect that they are atheists. I teach them critical thinking, I teach them how to investigate ideas and analyze them, and I teach them the scientific method. Through that, they are critical thinkers and atheists.

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• Moroni . 10: 4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the truth of all things.

This is not a quantifiable test. People from all religions perform similar tests and for each it is reinforcing only to that which they are familiar with, only to that which is the religion they are considering. You can't measure the data from such a test. It relies only on emotions, and emotions are faulty. Testing something on the basis of if it feels good doesn't lead necesarily to the most adaptive behavior. For example, drugs undeniably make people feel good. But would you change the words "god," "eternal father" and "christ" with the word "methamphetamine" and the words "holy ghost" with the word "high" in the above passage? It would indeed be the same kind of test, but what would the danger be? and why would it be a problematic test?

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All things, yo. And so much of my church is directed to educating people in things other than God, because knowing God is almost no good if you know nothing else...in fact I’m pretty sure you can’t know God if you don’t know anything else. It takes a degree of intelligence to know God.

But the church does not encourage education about all things, and indeed discourages education in some things. For example, studies in science in relation to sexual studies and relationships is often limited, distorted or discouraged within the church. Interestingly enough, this is my field of study. Family studies that are used in the programs at BYU are often restricted. Other studies that are discouraged and restricted are things in regards to stem cell research and genetics (which is something that, as I understand, the stance on which has recently changed some as a result of a controversy in regards to a study in mitochondrial dna - but that is probably best addressed in another conversation). So even if they teach lots of other things, they still restrict knowledge as well.

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That might be why you hate stupid Christians, and use them for your examples and movies. I watched that God movie…and gosh those people are retarded. Try using current Mormon authorities, yo. It won't work.

Some of the reason why it wouldn't work is because of the mormon reliance on the Book of Mormon. Some of the Book of Mormon is written as an appologetic companion to the Bible. Although, there are other issues that mormon authorities can't address, it is simply the case that by defaulting to the Book of Mormon, the authorities have a kind of scapegoat.

To Voiderest: if you prayed to fairies, with real intent, really wanting to know if they existed, after working or studying fairies, and pondering all the information. Well, if you did all that and prayed to your fairies and they manifested themselves to you->good for you. i hope your fairies will make you happy.

To SilkyShrew: I am of the moral persuasion of that similar to that taught in Les Miz.

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The point is not really that religion cannot have any possibility of helping make better people, it is that we can point to other social structures that can do the same or better at improving people than religion seems to.

What "social structure" could be better? Please be specific

i read the whole message and, of course, i would like to refute almost everything you said…but I have world history in twelve minutes, so I’ll have to get back to you on it.

But goodness! I know your not evil!

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Many of us are used to people calling us evil. We're used to being accused of having no morals, of being murderers, of being satanists, of being any number of things that society deems as being an indicator of lower human moral and social value. To me, your blog seems more like a plea than anything, and so I shall treat it as such.

You don’t believe in God, that doesn’t make you evil by me. I don’t condemn you and neither does my church. Go ahead, look up quote by a Prophet that says, “Wo unto the unbeliever, for he shall be damned to hell! Bwa-ha-ha!!” (disclaimer: not a real quote) or something like that, but you that would be a general quote. General in many senses; general because there isn’t really a complete and fire a brimstone Hell waiting for anyone. As you obviously know, the lowest place for a person is “Outer Darkness”, but the only way you can get there is if you knew for sure that Christ existed (not just faith anymore, but you knew…like you saw Him) and then you denied it through and through. Ok, the worst place a person like you or me could be…you don’t need this lecture. You know it. But I never condemned you or said you were evil!

Why did you decide the church wasn’t “true”? What happened? Was it a stupid person in authority? Or a sin in a member you knew, like a hypocrite? Or was it something you couldn’t forgive yourself of? But when you’re in something so happy…no, I was going to say: when you’re in something so happy I can’t imagine why you’d want to leave. But I take it back. I’ve wanted to leave many times, and I did once or twice...but (obviously) I never left completely. Probably because deep down, I knew I couldn’t turn on something so plainly good. And now I’m quite late….well I’ll continue later.

To Voiderest: if you prayed to fairies, with real intent, really wanting to know if they existed, after working or studying fairies, and pondering all the information. Well, if you did all that and prayed to your fairies and they manifested themselves to you->good for you. i hope your fairies will make you happy.

On an interesting note, I used to be in high school with a bunch of Wiccans. Some of them did honestly believe in real actual factual fairies. Like glowy little winged people fairies. But no one else could see them......they're invisible, or they moved too fast to see, or they're too small to see.

Now, these kids were bonkers in my eyes, as are other religious people. But I still think I should be able to say, "That's ridiculous, there's no evidence for fairies!" without getting a bunch of people all up in arms about religious tolerance. And you're right, on the "good for you. i hope your fairies will make you happy." Their "fairies" were just "good feelings" that they "knew" were "there".However, if some of those fairies started "telling" the people to cut all their non-fairy worshipping family and friends out of their lives, beat up gay people or blow up planes, I'd get a little worried.

Especially if the other people who believed in fairies started defending them and saying, "Yeah, he's doing the fairies' will, the fairies commanded it." or, "Well, they aren't TRUE fairy believers."
Which is what is happening today with religion. No one's allowed to address any damaging qualities or irrationality of religion in public discourse in general. That's one of the reasons we question people's faith. If someone decided they could fly and was about to jump of a cliff you'd try to reason with them wouldn't you? That's how I feel when friends turn to religion as a crutch.

And just for the record, fairies aren't real.
Oops, I just killed Tinkerbell.

There's a whole lot ways to test it, but the surest way to succeed is, obviously, a little demanding.

I'm guessing you mean the surest way to succeed is to read the book of Mormon, ask god to show himself, and wait for the answer?

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Though, you do seem like the educated type of person who doesn’t mind reading.

Why, thank you! I am and I don't.

One time when I was in graduate school, I was sitting at home working on a particularly nasty paper, and realized I hadn't eaten all day. I ordered a pizza from the place a couple of blocks from my house. It was still steaming hot when it got to me. I cracked a very fine bottle of beer, took a big bite of pizza, sloshed some beer around my mouth, and swallowed.

I don't want you to think I'm poking fun at you with the next thing I say. I'm completely serious. That bite of pizza and swig of beer gave me an almost transcendental feeling of complete inner happiness! I don't remember another moment when I felt any more complete or at peace with the universe. It was not even the best pizza I'd ever had, but I had it at exactly the right moment, and the beer (my first drink of the night... this was not drunken fancy) made it into what I believe to be one of the only "perfect moments" I've ever had in my life.

There was nothing special about the pizza or the beer. They just triggered something in my brain, and the rush of endorphins, combined with my feeling of accomplishment at sitting all day working on this paper, made me feel really, really good, and happy to be alive, and happy to be me.

Anyway, I haven't read the whole book of Mormon, but don't take that to mean I don't know about the religion. There are a lot of religions in the world, and I don't have the personal goal of being a professor of comparative religion, so most religious texts are near the bottom of my "To-Read" list.

Somewhere on one of these threads, I wrote about an incident when I was a young guy and asked god to prove his existence to me. Nothing happened, as you probably guessed. The pizza, however -- the pizza was there for me, and I have as much of a reason to believe that the pizza was rewarding me for believing in the pizza-god as you do for believing that the mormon god rewarded you for asking him to show himself to you.

Understand?

It's just endorphins.

That's it. Endorphins.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

I personally think that my own family structure within my own home is certainly befitting of teaching my children things that they should know. Along with that, they have things at school and with their friends that teach them as well. Some people find what they need in humanist activism and many other places. I wouldn't say that there is just one social structure out there that stands out above religion, I'm sure there are several.

rationalmormon wrote:

i read the whole message and, of course, i would like to refute almost everything you said…but I have world history in twelve minutes, so I’ll have to get back to you on it.

Please do.

rationalmormon wrote:

But goodness! I know your not evil!

I wasn't trying to imply that you thought I was evil, I was simply explaining why others may have felt that your statements implied that we are evil, or at least part of the explanation, as others described some other reasons.

rationalmormon wrote:

You don’t believe in God, that doesn’t make you evil by me. I don’t condemn you and neither does my church. Go ahead, look up quote by a Prophet that says, “Wo unto the unbeliever, for he shall be damned to hell! Bwa-ha-ha!!” (disclaimer: not a real quote) or something like that, but you that would be a general quote. General in many senses; general because there isn’t really a complete and fire a brimstone Hell waiting for anyone. As you obviously know, the lowest place for a person is “Outer Darkness”, but the only way you can get there is if you knew for sure that Christ existed (not just faith anymore, but you knew…like you saw Him) and then you denied it through and through. Ok, the worst place a person like you or me could be…you don’t need this lecture. You know it. But I never condemned you or said you were evil!

Indeed, I'm well aware of the consequences according to the church for denying christ, although the teachings don't exactly imply that it must be such an absolute witness of christ before you deny him. Regardless, although I doubt very much the existence of Christ, if somehow by some strange and extreme event he showed his existence, I am inclined to believe I'm the type of person who would still be unsupportive of him. I may not deny his existence if it was proven to me - but I would not support him due to disagreement in ethical approaches.

rationalmormon wrote:

Why did you decide the church wasn’t “true”? What happened?

I was about 19 and I just stopped believing ... it didn't make sense, things I read were contradictory, and I disagreed with some of the ethical stances that the church was promoting. After that I learned about other beliefs and decided they made as little sense as the mormon religion. However, due to my social relationships, I remaned active in the church until I was 25 and left a relationship with an abusive spouse. Obviously, there is a long story between the ages of 19 and 25, but I'm not inclined to give you the juicy details.

rationalmormon wrote:

Was it a stupid person in authority? Or a sin in a member you knew, like a hypocrite? Or was it something you couldn’t forgive yourself of?

My stopping believing was more due to a logical process of going over the beliefs as compared to what conclusions I could logically draw from what I read from scripture and church doctrine. My act of actually leaving the church did come from the behaviors of those around me, but belief-wise I was already gone. Why should someone leaving a religion *have* to be because of the abuse of power from someone, a hypocrite or some undesireable act of my own?

rationalmormon wrote:

But when you’re in something so happy…no, I was going to say: when you’re in something so happy I can’t imagine why you’d want to leave.

I have been been better off since I left mormonism than when I was a believing/acting mormon.

rationalmormon wrote:

But I take it back. I’ve wanted to leave many times, and I did once or twice...but (obviously) I never left completely. Probably because deep down, I knew I couldn’t turn on something so plainly good.

I wouldn't consider mormonism to be necesarily "plainly good." There are many things taught by the church that I do believe are not good and are indeed socialy maladaptive teachings. I don't like the bigotry advocated in restricting the relationships of homosexuals, for example. Sexual oppression in other forms is another problematic stance that the church has. The teaching that "it is better that one man shall die than an entire nation dwindle in unbelief" strikes me as extremely unethical and not unlike terrorists who kill under the guise of a religious difference. There are many stories in the Book of Mormon and the Bible of a deity that is both unethical, but also angry and cruel. The story of Noah's ark is a cruel and disturbing reaction to events, and the notion that a deity needs to use something like a rainbow to make an oath to never do something again (because apparently the deity realizes it was cruel) implies a flawed deity which is also implied to be flawless. Not only is that a contradiction, it shows that this deity is unethical. Of course, the list could go on. The main point is, I don't see the mormon religion as being an overall good.

I like what GlamourKat wrote. And pretty much my social and ethical creed is my church’s eleventh article of faith:

Quote:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

And with this article of faith at my back, I practice complete tolerance of people. Actually, you might like to know that probably half of my friends do not even believe that God exists either (and I live in the county with the highest density of mormons in america {which is not in Utah, thank you very much[...but sometimes it does feel like it. there are, obviously because of the high density, a high number of hypocrites}).

I do not believe Theism is going anywhere (besides getting more popular, due to all the crap going on {i.e. murder, terrorism, rape, and all-around evil things}). Theism gives people an escape from hatred, sadness, greed, grief, and many more negative emotions. It encourages them to forgive when they are trespassed. It just helps people feel better in every aspect of living. Theism helps people to be content and to work hard. Of course, I'm talking about positive theism. Or positive religion in general, not just the groups that believe in a God.

So this brings me to the whole reason why I'm here. I don't like this organization because it supports intolerance. I really really don't think you can get rid of Theism. Instead, if I were you, I'd try to see if I could call the hypocrites on it. Point out the idiots and the liars; point out the people trying to steal your money. Point those people and say, "Is this what you believe in?" And while doing this I'd also point out the groups that are doing a lot of good in the world-> The groups devoted to peace, charity, love, kindness, or tolerance. I don't feel much like going further today. I feel pooped. And I need money for food so I'm going to go donate plasma before they close.

I like what GlamourKat wrote. And pretty much my social and ethical creed is my church’s eleventh article of faith:

Quote:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

And with this article of faith at my back, I practice complete tolerance of people. Actually, you might like to know that probably half of my friends do not even believe that God exists either (and I live in the county with the highest density of mormons in america {which is not in Utah, thank you very much[...but sometimes it does feel like it. there are, obviously because of the high density, a high number of hypocrites}).

I do not believe Theism is going anywhere (besides getting more popular, due to all the crap going on {i.e. murder, terrorism, rape, and all-around evil things}). Theism gives people an escape from hatred, sadness, greed, grief, and many more negative emotions. It encourages them to forgive when they are trespassed. It just helps people feel better in every aspect of living. Theism helps people to be content and to work hard. Of course, I'm talking about positive theism. Or positive religion in general, not just the groups that believe in a God.

So this brings me to the whole reason why I'm here. I don't like this organization because it supports intolerance. I really really don't think you can get rid of Theism. Instead, if I were you, I'd try to see if I could call the hypocrites on it. Point out the idiots and the liars; point out the people trying to steal your money. Point those people and say, "Is this what you believe in?" And while doing this I'd also point out the groups that are doing a lot of good in the world-> The groups devoted to peace, charity, love, kindness, or tolerance. I don't feel much like going further today. I feel pooped. And I need money for food so I'm going to go donate plasma before they close.