No, really—what's the difference? Do you think they're two distinct characters or the same person, and why? Since The Silver Chair is going to be adapted into film next, I think it could be a good idea for dedicated Narnia fans to have a platform for expressing their thoughts and arguments on this debate.

Though I'm always interested in hearing a compelling argument to the contrary, I'm decidedly in the two-different-characters camp. I've done a fair amount of research on the topic, and while I concede that those in the single-character camp may have a few points to their favor, I personally think the evidence that they are two distinct characters is pretty overwhelming.

On the side of the single-character camp, you can point to potential evidence like the snake that's coiled around Jadis's arm in the Pauline Baynes illustrations of The Magician's Nephew, the fact that it seems that Jadis may have assumed the role of the serpent from Eden when tempting Digory with the apple, and the 2010 interview with Douglas Gresham where he says that the "evil spirit has found a new, young body to inhabit" when asked whether or not Tilda Swinton would be recast as the Lady of the Green Kirtle.

On the other hand, over at the two-different-characters camp, there's evidence like: the fact that Aslan already defeated and killed the White Witch in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the two characters' wildly differing speech patterns (the LotGK used many words and phrases that Jadis never used in MN or LWW), and their contrasting personalities and unique methods for achieving their goals.

Where do you stand on this debate, and why? What do you think is the strongest evidence in favor of or against the idea that the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch are the same person?

Perhaps the strongest factor is that the LOTGK reverted to her shape as a serpent when she was attacking or defending herself - that is her true shape or person; however the White Witch remains a human looking creature, and always claims to be human.

[believe it or not, for several years we had to ban this topic, as a small number of members insisted that there was only one identity - they would not listen to others, nor take any notice of mods in how vehement they got in their posts)

Aha! Since the film is at least under production, I agree we need to think about how these two characters are similar and how they are different. So here is my tuppence worth why I am firmly in the two character camp.

Each witch had a different modus operandi. Think about it. The White Witch liked turning people into stone. Her magic was concentrated in her wand. She also claimed suzereignty in her own right. Her method of mastering Narnia was to dominate pure and simple. Also, she came from a different place in one way. She had been ruling in Narnia for a hundred years. The Narnians were well acquainted with her and either went along with her to save their own skins or else they opposed her, hoping for Aslan and the expected kings & queens to set everything to rights.

Whilst the LOTGK, trying to expand her influence, has a different way of operating. She doesn't have to try to be friendly, as did the White Witch when milking as much information from Edmund as she could as she suggested he could be her sole heir in LWW. LOTGK was friendly - to strangers she met on the wayside. Seeming hospitable, she directed them to "suitable" lodgings, and much depended on their strength of character whether or not they would listen and proceed to Harfang.

Then we learn about how she enchanted the gnomes of Bism, how she kidnapped the Prince and enchanted him as well with ever strengthening potions, dodgy equipment and spells. Until he was prepared to marry her, help her invade his own country, conquering it, and taking her to be his consort - a green eminence behind the throne. The LOTGK worked with psychology and hypnotism, not pure domination and punishment.

About all the two witches have in common was their ability to transform themselves into something else. The White Witch turned herself and the dwarf Ginarbrik into rocks and tree stumps. LOTGK turned herself into a snake. Maybe the snake was her proper shape and the beautiful woman was the disguise. I can't think of anything else right now, but I've got a feeling I've missed a whole lot of differences that could be also mentioned.

If the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch were the same person, Aslan had no power whatsoever in the Narnian World. He killed Jadis; if she was able to come back then it is proof that she was stronger than He was.

I added a poll to this thread for quick reference on where NarniaWebbers stand on this debate.

coracle wrote:Perhaps the strongest factor is that the LOTGK reverted to her shape as a serpent when she was attacking or defending herself - that is her true shape or person; however the White Witch remains a human looking creature, and always claims to be human.

That is one of the most interesting aspects of her character. She seems to have a lot in common with Lamia from Greek mythology, who was a beautiful queen of Libya that became a horrifying, serpentine monster after being driven mad with grief. I've even wondered if the Lady of the Green Kirtle might actually be Lamia, since C.S. Lewis was known for occasionally transplanting characters from Greek myth into the Narnia books, but it's hard to say. If that is the case, then I'd say it's probably a situation where Lewis put his own spin on the legend of Lamia.

However, we do know that Lewis probably did derive her name from the John Keats poem entitled Lamia, so there's a definite connection of some sort going on. The poem includes the lines:

Ah, happy Lycius!—for she was a maid More beautiful than ever twisted braid, Or sigh’d, or blush’d, or on spring-flowered lea Spread a green kirtle to the minstrelsy

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Whilst the LOTGK, trying to expand her influence, has a different way of operating. She doesn't have to try to be friendly, as did the White Witch when milking as much information from Edmund as she could as she suggested he could be her sole heir in LWW. LOTGK was friendly - to strangers she met on the wayside. Seeming hospitable, she directed them to "suitable" lodgings, and much depended on their strength of character whether or not they would listen and proceed to Harfang.

Then we learn about how she enchanted the gnomes of Bism, how she kidnapped the Prince and enchanted him as well with ever strengthening potions, dodgy equipment and spells. Until he was prepared to marry her, help her invade his own country, conquering it, and taking her to be his consort - a green eminence behind the throne. The LOTGK worked with psychology and hypnotism, not pure domination and punishment.

Your description of her personality and her methods is very apt! Because the Lady of the Green Kirtle's weapon of choice was manipulating people, she was quick to "befriend" those that she met, even when she didn't know who they were at all. That was never Jadis's standard procedure. Jadis would attempt to manipulate you after she discovered that you were of use to her, but not before. And even when Jadis did try to manipulate someone, as with Digory after he had collected silver apple, she made a fatal error because she just doesn't understand people. Psychology is not her forte.

DiGoRyKiRkE wrote:If the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch were the same person, Aslan had no power whatsoever in the Narnian World. He killed Jadis; if she was able to come back then it is proof that she was stronger than He was.

I've seen people postulate the idea that the scene where Nikabrik, the hag and the werewolf want to try to call up the White Witch in Prince Caspian is somehow foreshadowing of her return, but I don't think this makes much sense based on what we know about how Lewis wrote the Chronicles of Narnia. He says that he didn't plan on writing any more books after LWW, and then thought PC would be the last, and then thought that VDT would be the last. It doesn't seem to make sense that he would have included that scene as foreshadowing if he thought he wouldn't be writing any more books after Prince Caspian.

If the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch were the same person, Aslan had no power whatsoever in the Narnian World. He killed Jadis; if she was able to come back then it is proof that she was stronger than He was.

I am in the camp that the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch/Jadis are not necessarily the same person, but different manifestations of the same being, and here is why.

First, to address the above post, I don't think it is a matter of Aslan having any less power than the White Witch if she were to return as the LotGK, any more than God is any less powerful than Satan. Quite the opposite, as in the stories Aslan manages to guide the characters to defeat Evil, even though Evil always comes back to rear its ugly face time and time again.

I would say most readers agree that Aslan is an allegory of God/Jesus, not only with the parallels to The Crucifixion, The Resurrection (in LWW) and The Creation (in MN), but Lewis even virtually confirms it in VoDT when Aslan states he is "known by another name" in our world.

It seems to me that C.S. Lewis' intention was to have an evil presence or antagonist throughout the books (just as there is in our world) that manifests itself in different forms, with different powers, and with different intentions (all being evil, of course) at different periods in Narnian history. This represents the evil presence of the devil in our world, just as Aslan represents God. So to have different forms and manifestations of an evil being in Narnia is no different than Satan appearing in different forms in our world.

With that thought, I believe that the White Witch and LotGK (and perhaps even Tash in the Last Battle) are the same evil presence in Narnia that represent Satan/the devil in the stories.

Second, in The Magician's Nephew, Jadis ate the Fruit of Everlasting Life, acquiring immortality. By eating the fruit, it assured that evil would persist in the world until the final days. Even though Aslan "killed" her in LWW, she is able to come back in different forms, because she is immortal, having eaten the Fruit of Everlasting Life.

The problem with that argument is that Jadis came from a completely and totally different world. To make the argument that Jadis/LOTGK/Tash are all part of the same entity of evil, then you have to take every bit of evil in every world and have it be a part of the same "evil entity."

You can have that be your hypothesis if you so desire. . . but where's the proof in the book? Show me the textual evidence.

Hi ajmcrill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I edited the poll options a bit to include the word "being" as well as character. It's kind of funny; I was actually going to mention the Jadis-exemplifies-Satan argument to DiGs, but you beat me to it.

ajmcrill wrote:First, to address the above post, I don't think it is a matter of Aslan having any less power than the White Witch if she were to return as the LotGK, any more than God is any less powerful than Satan. Quite the opposite, as in the stories Aslan manages to guide the characters to defeat Evil, even though Evil always comes back to rear its ugly face time and time again.

I would say most readers agree that Aslan is an allegory of God/Jesus, not only with the parallels to The Crucifixion, The Resurrection (in LWW) and The Creation (in MN), but Lewis even virtually confirms it in VoDT when Aslan states he is "known by another name" in our world.

It seems to me that C.S. Lewis' intention was to have an evil presence or antagonist throughout the books (just as there is in our world) that manifests itself in different forms, with different powers, and with different intentions (all being evil, of course) at different periods in Narnian history. This represents the evil presence of the devil in our world, just as Aslan represents God. So to have different forms and manifestations of an evil being in Narnia is no different than Satan appearing in different forms in our world.

I think the idea that Jadis is more or less equivalent to Satan and therefore the driving force behind the Lady of the Green Kirtle is probably one of the more compelling arguments for the single-character/being-camp. On the other hand, though, I think we need to avoid looking at everything through an allegorical lens since Lewis himself said that the Narnia books weren't really meant to be read that way.

I'd say that there are some pretty distinct differences between Satan and Jadis, too. For one thing, Satan is a supernatural being with supernatural abilities. While Jadis had magical powers in Charn, she lost them when she left her own world. At some point in between MN and LWW, Jadis obtained a magical wand, but once it was destroyed in the First Battle of Beruna, she lost her magic again. The magical power seemed to be in the device, not in the person. And even the effects of the ill-gotten silver apple gave her physical strength and immortality, not supernatural abilities. Those are some of the reasons why I find it strange to think that Jadis would have unique and supernatural powers that would allow her to physically reappear in the flesh after being killed.

That said, I don't really have much a problem with her being the Satan-like figure of the Chronicles and being a spirit that "lives" in the LotGK, just as Satan "lives" in evil and unrepentant people. I have more of a problem of it actually being her, an entity who was able to autonomously return to Narnia after she was publicly killed by Aslan. From a theological perspective, my understanding of why Satan continues to have any effect on this world after the Atonement is because a lot of people still freely choose evil, and that's where his power lies. So, that's why I don't have much of a problem with the idea of the Lady of the Green Kirtle being someone who chose evil and thus connected with the spirit of Jadis in that way, but why I do take issue with them being essentially one and the same, and with Jadis having the ability to come back to life under her own power.

ajmcrill wrote:Second, in The Magician's Nephew, Jadis ate the Fruit of Everlasting Life, acquiring immortality. By eating the fruit, it assured that evil would persist in the world until the final days. Even though Aslan "killed" her in LWW, she is able to come back in different forms, because she is immortal, having eaten the Fruit of Everlasting Life.

One other thought... if Jadis was able to physically return to Narnia at will, where was she during those thousand years (the Narnian "Dark Ages", they're sometimes called) between the Pevensies' reign and the Telmarine invasion? Or even the two hundred+ years in between the events of The Silver Chair and The Last Battle? It honestly seems that she should've been causing a bit more trouble than she did, if she was able to take on the form of humans and animals at will. Even if Tash is somehow a manifestation of Jadis, he seemed to be solely focused on collecting those people who had called upon his name.

I'm definitely in the "two characters" camp.I think there is textual support in The Silver Chair for it, in addition to some of the other reasons that have been mentioned.

And while [Jill and Eustace] slept Prince Rilian was talking over the whole adventure with the older and wiser Beasts and Dwarfs. And now they all saw what it meant; how a wicked Witch (doubtless the same kind as that White Witch who had brought the Great Winter on Narnia long ago) had contrived the whole thing, first killing Rilian's mother and enchanting Rilian himself. [...] "And the lesson of it all is, your Highness," said the oldest Dwarf, "that those Northern Witches always mean the same thing, but in every age they have a different plan for getting it."

The older and wiser Beasts and Dwarfs think that the Green and the White Witch are different individuals, of the same kind. They see them as Northern Witches and conclude that they have the same goal in every age (to suppress Narnia and to go against Aslan's designs for his world), but pursue it with different - individual - plans.

The witches are also representatives of evil, but individual beings, not manifestations of one evil being.

This doesn't make completely sense if one of those witches comes from a different world. But at the time when this was written, Lewis hadn't written about Jadis coming from Charn yet. It's quite possible that he didn't have that idea at this time, but saw Jadis as a Narnian being (and with some of her origins from Adam's first wife, but not from Eve).

A valid point has been raised about Jadis not having any supernatural powers apart from her wand. The Lady of the Green Kirtle did have supernatural abilities, in that she could transform into a snake. She did, of course have other enchanted objects like her fire (or at least the dust that she threw into it) and the silver chair itself), but she is perhaps the only Narnian villain mentioned throughout the entire series who has supernatural abilities of their own.

Jadis has supernatural abilities in her own world, but as pointed out, they vanish both in our world and in the Narnian world. The vengeful Tarkhaans of Calormen (villains for HAHB and LB) certainly have no supernatural abilities, nor does Miraz. Tash has the ability to appear at will, but I'm not really going to focus on Tash as a "villain" of the series, because I've never read him as a villain. An evil character, to be sure, but not necessarily a villain.

What do we make then of this supernatural power bit?

I think the answer lies in the fact that ALL villains save for the LOTGK are noted to have otherworldly origins. Jadis came from Charn (and had magic there,) and the Calormene villains (Rishda in LB and Rabadash in HAHB) as well as Miraz were all descendents of human beings from our world. All of these villains were transplants to the Narnian world.

But the LOTGK, with her supernatural abilities, makes me think that she was an original part of the Narnian world, created by Aslan, or formed by some dark magic within the world itself. If we took the LOTGK out of the Narnian world, and placed her in England, would she still have supernatural abilities? If the rest of Narnia's villains are any representation, then we'd have to assume that she didn't.

I think that this is further textual evidence that the two characters are not the same, nor are they manifestations of the same "entity."

It's funny, but I would never have given the question a thought just from reading the books. "Same kind" doesn't at all suggest "same person" to me.

Now it is true that they both practiced enchantment, but again, it was a different kind of skill, if we can call it that. The White Witch did try the sweet, pleasing sort of behaviour with Edmund, but it sure didn't last long. She was quite forthright in her opinions and didn't hesitate to blast anyone who went against her desires.

The Lady of the Green Kirtle, on the other hand, used subtlety to gain her ends, and saved violence as her last resort. She tried to get rid of them by recommending them to the giants; when they showed up anyway, she attempted to weave her spell on them, and only lost her temper and turned to a snake when it was her only option.

Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away ... my days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle

I really like your theory, Varnafinde; I've considered a lot of the same things. Especially the bit about Lewis possibly not having yet come up with the idea of Jadis being from a different world at the time of writing The Silver Chair. I think we sometimes expect C.S. Lewis to be the kind of writer who planned out the entire series before ever beginning the first book, but he's said himself that this wasn't so. (I've read that when he started writing The Dawn Treader, Edmund and Lucy weren't even in it originally!)

DiGoRyKiRkE wrote:A valid point has been raised about Jadis not having any supernatural powers apart from her wand. The Lady of the Green Kirtle did have supernatural abilities, in that she could transform into a snake. She did, of course have other enchanted objects like her fire (or at least the dust that she threw into it) and the silver chair itself), but she is perhaps the only Narnian villain mentioned throughout the entire series who has supernatural abilities of their own.

Jadis has supernatural abilities in her own world, but as pointed out, they vanish both in our world and in the Narnian world. The vengeful Tarkhaans of Calormen (villains for HAHB and LB) certainly have no supernatural abilities, nor does Miraz. Tash has the ability to appear at will, but I'm not really going to focus on Tash as a "villain" of the series, because I've never read him as a villain. An evil character, to be sure, but not necessarily a villain.

What do we make then of this supernatural power bit?

Thank you for bringing up the sharp contrast between the magical abilities of Jadis and Lady of the Green Kirtle... I hadn't quite thought of it that way! That is very interesting. On the one hand, you have Jadis whose magic is lost when her wand destroyed. With the LotGK, her magic is only completely destroyed after she has died. It is her own person that is connected with the magic, as we see when Puddleglum and Rilian observe that Underland is flooding and breaking apart because the Witch has been slain.

That's also a very interesting theory about the Lady of the Green Kirtle being Narnian in origin because of having inherent magic, and the possibility of her magical abilities being void if she went to England.

aileth wrote:The Lady of the Green Kirtle, on the other hand, used subtlety to gain her ends, and saved violence as her last resort. She tried to get rid of them by recommending them to the giants; when they showed up anyway, she attempted to weave her spell on them, and only lost her temper and turned to a snake when it was her only option.

I've noted the Lady of the Green Kirtle's reluctance to use violence myself, or at least, her reluctance to do it personally. She sent Puddleglum and the children to Harfang for them to be snuffed out by the giants, and even planned for Rilian to take care of most of the bloody business of the Narnian invasion. And even the Rilian's description of the invasion seems as though it's meant to be as quick and bloodless as possible... Rilian is to slay the chief man and then be crowned within a day after invading. None of that strikes me as being Jadis's preferred operating procedure, although one might argue that if she's a phantom of some sort, she has no real physical ability to do anything. The fact that we see the LotGK riding a horse, however, and her vicious attack on Rilian in serpent form would seem to cast some doubt on that idea.

Could LotGK have been squeamish? Oh, surely not. It's all very well to talk about a lady so dainty that she wouldn't set the sole of her foot on the ground, but surely her refinement wasn't more than skin deep. I mean, she was a snake! She moulted her good manners pretty quickly at the end.

Somehow the thought that a wannabe world conqueror would hesitate to off her opponents is quite ludicrous. Although I suppose that everybody has their own modus operandi; it did seem to work for her up till that point. Maybe she just wanted everyone to be nice and cooperate.

Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away ... my days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle

aileth wrote:Could LotGK have been squeamish? Oh, surely not. It's all very well to talk about a lady so dainty that she wouldn't set the sole of her foot on the ground, but surely her refinement wasn't more than skin deep. I mean, she was a snake! She moulted her good manners pretty quickly at the end.

Somehow the thought that a wannabe world conqueror would hesitate to off her opponents is quite ludicrous. Although I suppose that everybody has their own modus operandi; it did seem to work for her up till that point. Maybe she just wanted everyone to be nice and cooperate.

I don't think it was so much that she was reluctant to kill, but rather reluctant to kill personally, and for it to be messy. In some ways, the LotGK seems to be more stereotypically feminine in that respect. I think I have read that female murderers are more likely than men to use methods such as poisoning, and that is definitely in keeping with the one single murder we see the LotGK personally commit: the killing of Ramandu's Daughter. One little sting on the wrist and the poison is so potent that she's beyond help.

Jadis, on the other hand, goes around threatening to blast people and knock their brains out, and is more than happy to follow through with it. She seems to have a much greater disposition towards brutal violence. Even when the LotGK attacked Rilian at the end of The Silver Chair, I'm doubtful that she was actually trying to kill him. Knocking him unconscious until she's able to find another way to enchant him again seems more likely, because if she wanted to kill him, why didn't she just bite him on the ankle and let the extremely powerful venom do its work?

I think your thought about her wanting everyone to be nice and cooperate has merit, though. I mean, I think she must have liked having her ego stroked or else I don't see how she could have put up with adoring, sycophantic Rilian for ten years.