The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.

You may argue for hours days or years, but this reform movement is unethical, irrational, meaningless, without support and potent.

I still say lakun dinakum! Why do you care? Are you being asked to accept Misaak? or attend waaz? or to give najva by force? or to do matam? or to do didaar? If you don't like it just move on!

We do care because the brain washing that is indulged from the childhood and they make non thinking zombies and slaves of humans.

There is a lot of force involved. Ask somebody who can think on their own. People are made to give up their relations, boycott the marriages of their relatives, prevented from attending the funeral of their parents like I was.

What lakum dinakum are you talking about? The regressive cult has nothing to do about deen. It is all about money. Do the orthos really follow the deen of the Imams? Wake up brother.

@improvisator
What lakum dinakum are you talking about? The regressive cult has nothing to do about deen. It is all about money. Do the orthos really follow the deen of the Imams? Wake up brother.

Well you need to wake up! Really!

It is you who needs to wake up brother. The so called 'regressives' by you all, who are in fact the actual ones who are progressing, follow the deen and sharaiah better than other sects. If you actually see, the proportion of masjids filled, there is more attendance in Bohra masjids than anywhere else in India!

You can only see money because thats the low level of your mind. I have got no to be nosy about the dawat's money, but if you look around, you will see that a lot of money is spent as well. I just don't want to get into this cheap discussion about money but I am well assured that the money is being spent wisely and is actually helping Bohras. Of coarse you will bring in your last resort name of 'Kothar' and tell 10 bad things about them and the priestly class. But thats not new for you all because thats what the initiator of your community Mr.Engineer has done most of the time.

I am sorry for being aggressive but then again, you called the orthos as regressives didn't you?

Let me correct your regarding what you posted in your first post. You said;

The Holy Quran states:
"Lakum din-o-kum va le ya deen"

This is most misused Aya by various sects of Islam and deviants to justify their wayward ways.

Look at start of the Sura

It addresses "Kafiroon". Unless your creed is not part of "Unbelievers in Islam' then you should not use this Aya.

Here is transation: I hope you are al;lowed to read it.

Shakir Sura 109:
[1]Say: O unbelievers!
[2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

In this case you all are the disbelievers, who deny or unnecessarily question the authority of the Dai. Kafir is a person who doesn't believe in the prophet (SAW). The prophet (SAW) made Ali(AS) his successor. And that post has passed on from Nabi (SAW) to Vasi (AS) to Imam (AS) to Duaat (RA) and to Dai Zaman (TUS). Anyways, if you don't believe in this chain you are not worth being called a Bohra, so forget about reformation.

[Shakir 3:84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

And

[Shakir 2:285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

[Shakir 2:286] Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people

And

[Shakir 60:12] O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And

[Shakir 17:22] Do not associate with Allah any other god, lest you sit down despised, neglected.
[Shakir 17:23] And your Lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but Him, and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word.
[Shakir 17:24] And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little.
[Shakir 17:25] Your Lord knows best what is in your minds; if you are good, then He is surely Forgiving to those who turn (to Him) frequently.
[Shakir 17:26] And give to the near of kin his due and (to) the needy and the wayfarer, and do not squander wastefully.
[Shakir 17:27] Surely the squanderers are the fellows of the Shaitans and the Shaitan is ever ungrateful to his Lord.
[Shakir 17:28] And if you turn away from them to seek mercy from your Lord, which you hope for, speak to them a gentle word.
[Shakir 17:29] And do not make your hand to be shackled to your neck nor stretch it forth to the utmost (limit) of its stretching forth, lest you should (afterwards) sit down blamed, stripped off.
[Shakir 17:30] Surely your Lord makes plentiful the means of subsistence for whom He pleases and He straitens (them); surely He is ever Aware of, Seeing, His servants.
[Shakir 17:31] And do not kill your children for fear of poverty; We give them sustenance and yourselves (too); surely to kill them is a great wrong.
[Shakir 17:32] And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.
[Shakir 17:33] And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
[Shakir 17:34] And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.
[Shakir 17:35] And give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance; this is fair and better in the end.
[Shakir 17:36] And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
[Shakir 17:37] And do not go about in the land exultingly, for you cannot cut through the earth nor reach the mountains in height.
[Shakir 17:38] All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord.
[Shakir 17:39] This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do

I hope you have read and understood Qur'an.

Those who Believe in Allah his last messenger and 3 other basic principls of Islam are believers.

Muslim First is not a Bohra. Shows how much time if you have spent on this forum. You've read little and understood nothing. No wonder you and Baskin seem to me stuck in some kind of a mental rut, conducting a one-way dialogue and simply refusing to listen to other voices, other points of view.

Your insistent resort to "lakum dinakum" is false defence and totally out of context. Is it so difficult for you to understand that we are NOT trying to reform deen, that we are NOT trying to advocate a new faith? The issues we are raising are mostly social and administrative in nature. Nor are we talking about just money, although it is an important factor because huge amounts of it are being extorted out of the community and used for the personal welfare and pleasure of the priestly class. In the current Kothari culutre money has become the measure of true faith. This is contrary to Islamic teachings and ethics. You may find it "cheap" to talk about money, but it was not so for prophet Mohammed and Hazrat Ali. For them being Muslim and a leader meant keeping account of public money and spending it on the welfare of the people. Hazrat Ali was so particular about it that he and his family would rather starve than take even a farthing from public purse (baitul maal). Compare this with the Kothar's reality today?

If prophet Mohammed were in our midst today, he would truly be appalled the corruption, profligacy and hypocrisy of the Bohra priestly class. The first question he would ask is 'why in the world do you need all this money?" and then, "What are you doing with it?" He would insist on knowing how the money taken from the people is being spent. And he would laugh at the standard argument that this is a matter between the Dai and his Imam. When all your artifices and evasions would fail to convince him, the likes of you will of course denounce him for being nosy and for starting a "cheap" discussion.

... am well assured that the money is being spent wisely and is actually helping Bohras

We also want to be similarly assured - by evidence and information that is open and public.

...there is more attendance in Bohra masjids than anywhere else in India

Filling up masjids is no evidence that true sharia and deen are being followed. In actual fact the bohras have strayed so far from sharia and deen that one is hard pressed to even acknowledge them as Muslims.

Improvisator wrote:I am now kind of coming to a conclusion after reading all these threads that it is Dawat's wealth and prosperity that is what you all are jealous about and His Holiness' popularity.

Even a child would hesitate to make such an argument. It's like a Bush insider saying that people criticise President Bush because of his wealth, popularity and Texas ranch. That the people may actually be concerned about his policies that have wreaked havoc domestically and internationally may not even cross his mind. One would call such a person dumb. Now I'm also kind of reaching the same conclusion about you.

Last edited by Humsafar on Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I am sorry for being aggressive but then again, you called the orthos as regressives didn't you?

You need not be sorry. It is the culture that has been taught to you. Not exactly your fault. You and your priests can't reason, so the standard mechanism is calling people names and if possible beat them up physically.

This is exactly what happened to Imam Husain. He wanted hujjat with Yezid and banu Umayyads. However, they replied with physical attack killing his family and himself. This they did because they could not reason with the truth. Don't we see history repeating itself.

And what is wrong in calling the orthos as regressives? Isn't the word an antonym of progressive? Aren't you opposing the progressives and bothering them

@baskin
First thing - We have not come to your majlis. You have come to this forum.
Second thing - You and your ilk, and also your priests don't want to or can't reason so calling names and swearing is all that you indulge in.
Third thing - It is progressives who are harassed in a variety of ways. The Kothar and their supporters are the tyrants and the progressives are the victims.

It sometimes amazes me how little you know about the actual dawoodi bohra faith being practised and on the other hand what you all speak. Firstly your main concern is money, clearly. You want to know where it comes from. It comes from mumineen who are willingly ready to spend thousands, lakhs and millions. Do you have any problem? Will you stop the mumineen from giving, or the Dawat from accepting it? You may or may not be able to see what benefit mumineen get by doing this, but they definitely do see the benefit and are willing to spend more.

I know what you are going to say in reply, but I can really see how well all Mumineen follow the sharaiah and the opinion of thousands in facts lakhs will hardly be affected by those few who know less and speak more.

^
Willingly? 9 out of 10 bohras would disagree with you. Just check out with an open mind. If it is done willingly, then
1. Why do you have local committees going around collecting money?
2. Why are people called to the devadi for their vajebats?
3. Why do the negotiations happen?
4. Why are they called vajebats (compulsions) in the first place?
5. Why don't you have just drop boxes?

Try having drop boxes for anonymous collections and the truth will come out!

We the progressives talk about the deen, but the priestly cult is all about money. To give you an example, just read the thread on Firozbhai Bandookwala by S. Insaf, a man pays throughout his life and when he is alone and sick in the last year and when he is unable to pay, he is denied burial in the Dawoodi Bohra Qabrastan. I have checked it out and it is a fact.

What is this example about, if not extortion of money? Don't just go about calling us names, unlike your regressive sites, this forum is open. Read it and respond like an educated human. Blindly lashing about reduces your credibility.

Please explain what is the actual dawoodi bohra faith being practised that we do not understand. What is the actual dawoodi bohra faith and how are reformists not practicing it. And if you actually condescend to explain, please make sure that you cite historical and doctrinal references.

As I've been saying, again and again, that our main concern is not money. And No, we do not want to know where it comes from. We KNOW where it comes from and how. To say that Bohras give money willingly is like saying that jews went to nazi gas chambers willingly, that colonial people became subjects of imperial powers willingly, that African slaves went to the Americas willingly, that the sheep go the slaughter house willingly. This is not to say that nobody ever gives the priestly class willingly - there are always some rich fatcats in every city to give millions "willingly" but not out of love for the Dai but to buy status in society and to be in the good books of the priestly class. But hundreds of thousands of bohras who have to pay wajebat and other taxes every step of the way do not pay up willingly. You seem to be ridiculously out of touch. Please spend time with some common bohras and try to understand their concerns, fears and problems, then hopefully you would not throw around the word "willingly" so casually.

In any case, for argument's sake, let's assume that common bohras give millions to the priestly class willingly. Two questions immediately come to mind:

1) Why would the Dawat accept it? If it has integrity and honour the Dawat would say to the people "look we do not need so much money, we're not running a government here, we're not building roads or armies, we're not in the business of providing you welfare and protection. We cannot give you anything worthwhile in return for you money, so please do not give us your money. Spend it rather on your childrens' education, your business or give it to charity. Even the Zakat money that you give us is actually meant for the poor, you are going against Islamic tenet by giving it us. So please do not give us all these millions, we have no use for it, we cannot accept it and will not accept it. If we do, our Imam and our Prophet will be displeased with us." This is the response you would expect form a self-respecting Dawat.

2) What does the Dawat do with the millions given to it willingly? To say that "You may or may not be able to see what benefit mumineen get by doing this" is not enough. Show us in concrete terms how this money is being spent how are mumineen benefiting from it. Actually, if people see the benefits they will give more, and really willingly.

Excellent questions... I fully endorse your views.. However, I am not sure if people like Improvisator are matured enough to even understand these important facts of life... But nevertheless, good work and keep it up.

This 'Improvisator' goes on harping about "Lakum Deenakum val yadin". So I think that all the atrocities commited by the saffron brigade in Gujrat, Maharashtra,Orissa, Karnataka and their burning of churches, masjids and durgahs should be condoned by taking a stand "Lakum Deena kum val yadin". Allow them to inflict as much harm as possible on other religions and then use the above mentioned phrase. Moreover everyone participating in this thread are believers of Islam and it is Islam which is being twisted and turned by unscruplous people within our community in their nefarous designs to achieve their evil goals and this is what we are standing up against. We love our religion Islam and hence cannot tolerate such activities from these unscruplous elements. This is the issue and the Deen we are concered about is Islam.

This gentleman further harps on matam. I think he should understand that no one on this thread objects people from mourning for Imam Hussain a.s. but he should observe the type of ridiculous practices we cater to in Masjids during Moharrum. First of all the vayez is a good 3 to 4 hour long speech within which umpteen number of times the vayezin loses track of what he is saying and thereby reducing the tempo to zero decimal point. By this time majority of the bohras are sleeping and on seeing that, the vayezin out of the blue starts with the phrase "Allah Taala na Hussain" and the ones who were fast asleep just a second ago all of a sudden start doing matam. Now where is the Gham of Hussain a.s. here ? Is this mourning or mockery ? You see the ladies discussing various topics from appreciating one anothers rida to discussing their household chores and simultanously doing matam. Where is the Gham of Hussain a.s. here ? Then after the vayez is over, people stand up in circles and start beating their chests with not a tear dropping from their eyes. In that process they address Khatun-e-Jannat Fatema tus zohra a.s. as "Fatema, Fatema, Fatema" Nauzubillah as if they are calling an ordinary lady. Where is the Ehteraam or respect ? Where is the ghum ? Is this mourning with respect or sheer mockery ?

Unfortunately, the shirk or bidaa which started from the times of 51st Dai has now reached its pinnacle and to make the Qasr Aali people happy in order to retain their positions and grow further, the sycophant mullahs and Amils compete with each other in eulogizing the present Dai who is termed Naibe Ala Taha wa Yaseen, Shamsul Duaat Al Mutaqeen.

These are the few often repeated sentences and practices being followed all over the world wherever Bohras live:

1.Invariably, all aamils begin their sermons by saying that we are blessed to have been born in the period of the present Dai. Does this mean, our forefathers who were born during the period of other Dais were less blessed?

2 Most of the amils find Dai equivalent to or even a little superior to Kaaba as he is termed as Haqiqi Kaaba and supplicate for his Deedar since to them it is a form of Ibaadat and is equal to praying near Kaaba. Then, what is the need for them to go to Bait ul Allah. In fact, they should be barred from entering Kaaba as it is forbidden for Kaafirs and Munafiqeen.

3. They claim very vociferously that all of the followers of Dai are guaranteed a place in Jannah and Dai will take them to Jannah without fail and to entertain any doubt in it is a sign of Kufr. Then, why do we have to abide by the pillars of Islam, just continue eulogizing him.

4. The Dai is termed as Qareen Al Quran which means to them that he is a companion of Quran. In fact, one of the Amils compared Quran as the cover of the fruit (which looks beautiful from outside) and the pulp of the Quran is Aimmat and in their absence Duat. They say besides reading Quran, we should do Tasabeeh of the names of Aymat and Duat daily. However, the other meaning of the term Qareen is demon permanently assigned to each person during his/her life whose job is to seduce human beings and I think that second is correct.

5. The trend of Zikr E Hussain has evolved continuously during the last 40 odd years. Earlier, it was restricted to the 40 days of Muharram and Safr. Later, Nohas were read during other Urs and occasions. In the last 10 years, it has become a part of every Majlis whether it is celebration of Eid or birthday of prophet (PBUH). The maatam has even been added at the end of every Namaz. Very recently, the two three sentences of Shahadat are read during or at the end of every sermon, even if the whole sermon is of 5 minutes. It looks so odd that from nowhere, they turn to do Shahadat as if it is a game.

6. Unfortunately, during most of the Shahadats, they add sentences and verses to dramatize the whole situation which look so odd and does not appeal to logic. Example: Hussain (AS) asking Jibreel, what is the will of Allah. Why should he ask as he knew that he had to give the sacrifice. In fact, all of the Shaheed E Karbala knew their end and were really sure that they were fighting for the right cause and they will be blessed by Allah. It also looks odd when they say that Fatema (AS) put her tears into a bottle to sprinkle on the sinners to extinguish the fire. No physical things have meaning in the hereafter and if she were to have the power to intercede, she would not need water. She asked Imam Ali to get the bottle as she could not get up due to sickness and a few minutes earlier she was giving bath to Hassan and Hussain.

7. No sermon or talk as little as for one minute is complete without first and last supplicating for lengthening the age of Moula.

8. I was surprised to hear from Syedna’s mouth stating himself “Aqua Moula” and he himself prays for his long life.

9. These Amils claim that Syedna is (Nauzu Billah) Aalim Al Ghaib and knows everything before one says or commits. I have seen him asking to his Deewan whether he read that page or not during Waaz.

10. We read the Duas written by Imam Zainul Abedeen. In those very beautiful duas, he himself is seeking mercy from Allah Subahanahu. If a person of his stature, who suffered and was one of the most pious persons is seeking Allah’s mercy, who are all these puppets guaranteeing their followers a place in Jannah.

11. The question where is Imam now? Neither the 51st nor the 52nd Dai has claimed to have talked or seen him. Even if we were to believe the theory that he is in veil as the situation is not appropriate, but what stops him to see or meet his so called Deputy?

Need of the hour is to create an atmosphere where RELIGION dies a natural death, Unless that happens, who is going to stop these God-pedaling Faith-jockeys to carry on with their task? Religion is a hoax.. It is a cynical perversion of human spirit purely for the benefit of the parasites who we know as Kothar.

In present times Aamils instead of doing any welfare of the mumineens of their area, are always conducting uras majlis and spending a lot of time in useless bayaans.

As told by Hussain Bhai Ithe sentences which are speak by aamils , for crating hype in the mind of he people, I am adding my sentences, which were always told by aamil in our area :

1) At the time of reciting Shahadat of Moula Imam Hussain (A.S.) on each occassion, the Aamil of my area used to say " Moula Hussain (A.S) Sajda ma sagla mumineen na hak ma Dua kidhi, ane Apan Moula Syedna Burhanuddin Saheb na hak ma khas dua khidi. "
This means that Aamil is super natural person , because he comes to know such a special thing also.

2) This statement was the height by the Aamil, there was some Kadambosi was held at Saifee MAhal, and at that time Moula's health was not o.k.. But then also because of Shehzadas , he had to seaat for kadambosi, to take salaams. And our Aamil told that ,

" Pain of MOula and Imam Hussain (A.S. ) is equal, he is sitting in this age and in this sufferings for the kadambosi of the mumins"

Stupid Aamil is comparing pain and sufferings of Imam Hussein by the pain & sufferings of Moula.

Baskin, when you first came to this forum I thought you were a man of substance, but turned out to be just like the rest of your fellow abdy sayednas: incapable of rational thought and incapable of putting two complete sentences together. Faced with truth, when they have nothing to say they start cursing. You're doing the same.

Baskin wrote:
Why you have to go against the community to bring the reform?
If you are against the community then who will want to listen to you.

Please show me how we are going against the community. I'm guessing you must have read quite a few posts and articles on this site. Have you understood nothing? What gives you the impression that we are against the community. In fact, our whole struggle and effort is to end the coercion, fear and suffering in the community.

Baskin wrote:
Why you are against the dai?
There is no point in calling yourself dawoodi bohra if you are against the dai.

We're not against the dai, but against the cult of the dai. Against the priestly class and the Kothar bureaucracy that works with the blessing of or/and in the name of the dai. We're against the way religion is being used to exploit people. It is only in the current bohra culture the dai is being equated with God, that he is infallible, that he is beyond criticism. Look at our history and you will see that many dais were challenged and criticised when they made mistakes. There was nothing sacrilegious about it, nobody turned around and told the dissidents that your are not dawoodi bohras because you're "against" the dai.

Please understand that the reform movement is not here for fun or is not motivated by "jealousy" as many of you so often claim. Jealous of what? Nobody has the ambition to become a dai or eyes his wealth. When we talk about money it is only in the context that millions that are collected from the community must be spent for the welfare of the community. That there be some kind of accountability, that local jamaats must operate with some kind of democracy, that religion must not be used to harass people. (Do you think this is going against the community?)

And when we talk about dai, it is only to point out that his dawat has strayed away from the ideals and tenets of our faith, that it has become very materialistic and worldly, that its purpose is no longer to serve the faithful.

When you want to talk about these matters, you have to first understand what we are saying, what our position is. All this is well documented with references to our source books. It is possible that we may be wrong but you have to tell us how on the basis of the same source books. Let's talk from the same point of reference. The blanket statements - "you're against the community", "you're against the dai". "you're jealous" - are not helpful at all.

It is quite true that when certain kothari agents on this forum dont have a logical answer to certain issues, they try to cover it up by using the general phrase "you're against the community"," you're jealous" etc. It is important for them to understand that we want to enter into a healthy debate and if at all if anyone is wrong then one is at liberty to point it out but it should be in a proper and respectable manner with reasons which appeal to the mind.

It is utmost essential for people to have a "rehbar" because as the saying goes "bin guru gyan nahi" so no one disputes the importance and neccesity of a rehbar. The only objection here is the person occupying the seat. The post is undisputed but the person holding such an august post is a matter of dispute here. The reasons for the dispute are far many which have been cited in this forum time and again.

According to you is the Dawoodi Bohra community divided in two groups (or communities) - Dawoodi Bohras (or Orthodox as you claim) and Progressive Dawoodi Bohra? Or there is only one Dawoodi Bohra community and there are no divisions?

Brother Humsafar has always defined the purpose and objective of reform movement on this board without indulging in other controversies. Every time new comers are asking about reform movement. I request them to surf through the board before blaming others.