Is it just as racist to SUPPORT someone based on race; as it is to OPPOSE someone based on race

Phatscotty wrote:Baron, it's not silly at all. I have collections of clips, tons of evidence.

It's like this. The democratic party is the perceived champion of minorities, right? Anything that goes against liberal policy can and has many times ended up with charges of racism.

Back up a bit. Conservativism and racism have tended to go together, historically. The standard definition of "conservative" is "supporting the status quo". Since white males were, up until very recently, "in charge", those who had racist motives tended to support conservative political causes. Also, people who are racist are often members of what many call "fundamentalist" churches, which tend to support conservative social causes. Those socially conservative have tended to side with the political conservatives.

So, yes, racists are more often conservative. BUT, that doesn't mean conservatives are all racist. Nor does it mean that a definition of racism is "anything non liberal". That kind of statement, however, is something a racist might claim, to draw attention away from his racism, to try and justify it as something else. Does that fit you? I cannot say. Only you know that for sure.

Phatscotty wrote:Jesse Jackson, just to site one example, said "You can not call yourself black and be against the healthcare bill" Thereby implying it's for the blacks, and any white who stand against it are racist. Sharpton and others have echoed this claim many times many different ways.

Jesse Jackson is an idiot, not a spokesperson for the Democratic party, no matter what he might wish to be. And yes, he is definitely racist.

Gillipig wrote: As much as I appreciate that you read my sources carefully you must've missed the underlying red thread, that even with the environmental aspect taken into account it doesn't compensate for the entire difference in IQ between races!!

Actually, he misread nothing, but you apparently have.

Gillipig wrote:That's what these studies show and I think the east asian vs caucasian is a brilliant example to demonstrate just that. If environment was the only variable when it comes to IQ in humans, east asians would've scored lower on IQ tests than caucasians! (unless you argue that the average chinese has a more IQ stimulating environment than we do lol) They score higher on IQ tests that were made by and for westerner's than we do ourselves despite everything! The total IQ difference between east asians and africans can't in a million years be explained without talking genetics! My question was if you can say something racist (a.k.a one race superior to another) and be right but I think I've already answered that question! The real question however should be; can society ever accept that there are differences between races?

You are confusing some different issues. Nobody says that environment is the "only variable". Genetics, etc absolutely play a part. The question is whether race is one of those genetic traits tied to intelligence. It is not. As for the "Asians do better on IQ tests". It is not really as true as you seem to imply. To the extent it is, it is due to upbringing. BUT, you have to remember that IQ is only a very specific measure of a particular kind of intelligence. Original tests were very heavily biased toward professional white men. They BEGAN with the idea that white men were superior and basically looked for qualities these "great men" shared to use as measures for others. When your basis for judgement is white men, then naturally white men do better. Newer tests have evolved and are more legitimate tests of ones' ability to assess and cognify issues, data, etc.

What the tests you refer to really show is that some cultures value different things. It so happens that many Asian cultures innately value a type of learning and memorization that can be translated as IQ. Basically, the culture brings up good test takers. Does that mean that other cultures are inferior or even in some abstract way "less intelligent" No. In fact, it is more a failing of the testing methodology. You see in modern Asian cultures a lot of criticism regarding lack of creativity (do not confuse this with art... I mean the ability to see things differently, find new solutions to things and so forth), etc. cultures change and evolve. More asian societies are now embracing what is often called "creativity", as well as sports, etc.

Phatscotty wrote:History clearly, undisputedly records that democrat's are the party of racism.

If you make that "were", you are correct. The KKK was largely a Democratic organization after the civil war. Now, it is most definitely not.. but then, neither is the Republican party.

yeah, but the only evidence to have to point to is that "democrats always say they are racist" despite piles of evidence on the contrary. There are much more difficult myths you could try to pump because this one only flies for people who don't have a brain or actually need to believe the democrats aren't racist. that's why they get away with everything and republicans are held to a higher standard. thats all

Phatscotty wrote:History clearly, undisputedly records that democrat's are the party of racism.

If you make that "were", you are correct. The KKK was largely a Democratic organization after the civil war. Now, it is most definitely not.. but then, neither is the Republican party.

yeah, but the only evidence to have to point to is that "democrats always say they are racist" despite piles of evidence on the contrary. There are much more difficult myths you could try to pump because this one only flies for people who don't have a brain or actually need to believe the democrats aren't racist. that's why they get away with everything and republicans are held to a higher standard. thats all

Phatscotty wrote:History clearly, undisputedly records that democrat's are the party of racism.

If you make that "were", you are correct. The KKK was largely a Democratic organization after the civil war. Now, it is most definitely not.. but then, neither is the Republican party.

yeah, but the only evidence to have to point to is that "democrats always say they are racist" despite piles of evidence on the contrary. There are much more difficult myths you could try to pump because this one only flies for people who don't have a brain or actually need to believe the democrats aren't racist. that's why they get away with everything and republicans are held to a higher standard. thats all

You amaze me. I never know what to expect to spew from your mouth. It's astounding what comes out.

Phatscotty wrote:History clearly, undisputedly records that democrat's are the party of racism.

If you make that "were", you are correct. The KKK was largely a Democratic organization after the civil war. Now, it is most definitely not.. but then, neither is the Republican party.

yeah, but the only evidence to have to point to is that "democrats always say they are racist" despite piles of evidence on the contrary. There are much more difficult myths you could try to pump because this one only flies for people who don't have a brain or actually need to believe the democrats aren't racist. that's why they get away with everything and republicans are held to a higher standard. thats all

You amaze me. I never know what to expect to spew from your mouth. It's astounding what comes out.

Lootifer wrote:edit: Sorry I should clarify: My definition of racist is applying a negative prejudice against someone based on race.

This is a trap. See, what you consider "positive" prejudice can be just as harmful as obviously negative stereotypes.

Classic examples: They are better basketball players" They are good at business They do best in math

etc. We need to judge people as individuals, and who they choose to be, not some outward label that they cannot control.

Sorry if you are repeating arguments that have already taken place, I just don't think it's worth the effort to read the entire thread (since we all know internet arguments are serious business).

I don't see how those kind of prejudice can be harmful as long as you remove any ties with associated flipside negative prejudice.

(modifying your first example because I know much more about athletics than BB)

- Black people are faster runners.

Now even ignoring the science around fast-twitch fibres, and just looking at the stats, even then you face overwhelming data showing Black people to, on average, run faster than their white counterparts. Now there is more than enough statistical evidence to make this claim with some pretty accurate alpha values.

The law of averages exists for a reason, it's a well proven law (as well as being common sense). Therefore extending the law you could make a reasonable estimate on a population containing mixed races that the black members in the population are more likely to be faster than the white people.

A real life example would be an athletics scouting organisation putting an emphasis on checking out schools where the populations are predominantly Black.

Now is this racist in itself? No. It's rational behaviour. Racism is an irrational trait.

Could it be racist under some circumstances? Yes. If the scouting organisation refused to scout "white" schools because they claim Black people are faster then they are being racist. But they are also acting under false pretences. They are not avoiding predominantly white schools because they believe Black people are faster, they are avoiding them because they believe white people to be slower, which, while it may seem like the same thing, it isn't because one is a positive and one is a negative.

e.g.- I can be consistent and say Black people run fast, and then accept a white person into my sprint team (I never said white people can't be fast too)- I am being inconsistant when I say White people run slow, and then accept a white person into my sprint team

Subtle but important difference. And any percieved racism always has its roots in the negative, not the positive.

Player, let me ask you this. All those uber pro-life republicans, who think that every baby that is aborted deserves to live, how does your "republicans are racist" stack up when it's a fact that 60% of abortions come from single black mothers, and black are less than 20% of our population. In fact republicans are the only ones supporting all those babies, and the democrats who are for them being aborted.

That you saying "that's the most racist thing I have ever heard" was retarded.

I was not, in any way, comparing racists and saying your bunch of racists are worse (they are), but I couldn't give a shit, really, about racists. People with power who exploit those prejudices for personal gain, I do give a shit about, and from my experience, the guys on your side of the crazy do that way more.

One's environment still plays a large role in determining one's IQ. I've yet to stumble upon any research that states what proportion of environmental factors and what proportion of genetic background determine one's IQ. In your second link, Charles Murry himself can't even answer that.

The first link you mention (Rushton, J. P., & Jensen, A. R, 2005, "Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability") is actually riddled with errors. In the exact same June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy and Law, if you even bothered to actually read it, you would have noticed an article titled "Heredity, environment, and race differences in IQ: A commentary on Rushton and Jensen (2005)."

It's a lovely lambasting of what went wrong in their research, so you should read it to further counterbalance your misled views. (Did you even read the original PDF "Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability", or did you just read some guy's summary?)

However, people have to be careful when they conduct such research because they might be labeled as racist. It depends on what they conclude, how they were led to their conclusions, and of course on people's perceptions (which can easily be led astray).

As much as I appreciate that you read my sources carefully you must've missed the underlying red thread, that even with the environmental aspect taken into account it doesn't compensate for the entire difference in IQ between races!! That's what these studies show and I think the east asian vs caucasian is a brilliant example to demonstrate just that. If environment was the only variable when it comes to IQ in humans, east asians would've scored lower on IQ tests than caucasians! (unless you argue that the average chinese has a more IQ stimulating environment than we do lol) They score higher on IQ tests that were made by and for westerner's than we do ourselves despite everything! The total IQ difference between east asians and africans can't in a million years be explained without talking genetics! My question was if you can say something racist (a.k.a one race superior to another) and be right but I think I've already answered that question! The real question however should be; can society ever accept that there are differences between races?

In other words, you didn't read PDFs that criticize the erroneous conclusions of what you're regurgitating.

It was pleasant conversing with a bigot. Please don't let anyone ruin your demented view of the world. We need people like you to laugh at occasionally, and then move on.

That you saying "that's the most racist thing I have ever heard" was retarded.

I was not, in any way, comparing racists and saying your bunch of racists are worse (they are), but I couldn't give a shit, really, about racists. People with power who exploit those prejudices for personal gain, I do give a shit about, and from my experience, the guys on your side of the crazy do that way more.

Dude, cmon man, I grew up in America. I am sorry that I have barely ever heard racist stuff before.

Fucking liar. My friend, I'll say it clear, I'll state my case, of which I'm certain. I've lived a life that's full, I've travelled each and every high way, and more, much more than this, I think you're likely gay.

Fucking liar. My friend, I'll say it clear, I'll state my case, of which I'm certain. I've lived a life that's full, I've travelled each and every high way, and more, much more than this, I think you're likely gay.