Is Lord Fraud Laying A Debt Trap For Benefit Claimants?

Benefit claimants who struggle to manage their budgets when Universal Credit is introduced are to be charged to use the new ‘financial products’ that Lord Freud and the DWP are implementing.

Up to 2.5 million claimants are estimated to need some support when the new welfare and Tax Credit system is introduced next year, which will make benefit payments monthly for the first time. Claimants will also no longer have the option to have rent payments sent direct to landlords.

The DWP has invited banks, mobile phone companies, smart card companies (ominously) and any other private sector shark who’d like a slice of the benefit bill,to bid for a whopping £145 million worth of contracts to design budgeting support. Despite this huge sum claimants are expected to be charged for any continuing support once they have been on the new benefit over 12 months. The contract specifications say:

“DWP intends to enable claimants to access financial products that offer budgeting support by subsidising the cost of these products for an interim period of one year per claimant as they transition onto Universal Credit. At the end of the initial subsidised period DWP will withdraw the subsidy. The claimant will then choose whether they wish to continue using the account, with either themselves or a third party meeting the ongoing monthly cost:”

The new products will give private companies unprecedented control over claimant’s money, with suggestions that some cash could be ring-fenced to pay bills or debts. The exact details of any scheme are not yet known as Lord Freud has thrown caution to the wind and decided that the ‘final design will be open to the market to devise’.

Of most concern however is the potential for abuse of those claimants who are genuinely vulnerable and worried about managing money under the new regime. The poverty pimps brought into manage the scheme will have just 12 months to ensnare claimants into depending on their new financial products.

With banks invited to bid for the contract, no doubt High Street loan sharks have also got their greedy eyes on the latest DWP money pit. One way to trap claimants into using the service is to trap them in debt. For the first time, credit histories of potential borrowers will be irrelevant. Companies involved in this scheme will have access to claimant’s money at the source, meaning there is no choice but to pay back any loans that may be offered.

Lord Freud has stated that products must help claimants ‘build up their credit rating’. One way to build up a credit rating is to borrow money. Is the ex-banker dropping a hint to his old chums in the financial sector that here is a way to entrap the very poorest in an inescapable lifetime of debt?

Already plans have been announced to make Hardship Payments into loans. These are the meagre payments which can sometimes be claimed when benefits have been sanctioned and are currently worth about £40 a week. Under new measures claimants can now face benefit sanctions of up to three years, with Housing Benefits also now to be stopped. This means those in extreme poverty will have to borrow Hardship Payments to pay rent and possibly Council Tax leading to sanctioned benefit claimants being forced to borrow money from the government to pay tax!

After the one year initial subsidised period of a budgeting support financial product the claimant will then choose whether they wish to continue using the account, with either themselves or a third party meeting the ongoing monthly cost

–Who would if they had any Budgeting sense pay for Budgeting support?

How thick do they think claimants are?
And how is one supposed to make the transition from fortnightly to monthly, I suppose set-up a Budgeting Banking product and borrow.

Another Tory twisted piece of logic. They constantly tell us they have to cut benefits and yet find money to throw at the most pointless private contracts. This time they have decided loan sharks could do with a boost.
Not sure what to do when a facepalm or head banging on the desk is just not enough.
How about a bullet in Fraud’s head to put him out of our misery?

I know their cutting benefits but thats not what it’s about, it’s about pissing you off so you’ll take any crappy job, George Osbourne, David Cameron and IDS are now openly saying on TV in interviews that “its not fair that people who are working have to put up with neighbours who are unemployed”

This is basically trying to get working people to have a go at the unemployed out in public – which by the way is a criminal offence, and could even be interpreted as a form of terrorism.

All three of them should be cautioned or arrested by the police as this is INCITMENT to violence.

No, sorry, but I have to disagree. It IS about cutting benefits. They know that there are no jobs, and they also know that most of the long term unemployed (and the sick and disabled) can’t get even the crappy jobs.

When all this comes to pass, there will be no prisoners taken, rather like those in the nazi death camps sayings “I was never responsible, i was in the office simply compiling the lists of people who were to be gassed”. An extreme example i agree but we know how all that started. In the 21st century there should be no aspect of persecution and it’s makes it all the more offensive and worrying this is being undertaken with a mega attack on the mentally and physically disabled along with the unemployed who through no fault of their own find themselves victims of circumstance.

I would never advocate violence, rioting, wars, it seldom solves problems merely prolongs and opens the wounds deeper. The last i looked we still lived in a democratic country that afforded people the right to protest if they feel their voices are not being heard, that can sometimes be the only way to convey when politicians do not listen but in doing so it has to be backed-up with feasible alternatives for what they do. Many see this as a coalition full of milionaires against the poor, the disabled and the unemployed, many of these people affected are genuine as people can be in the UK yet of course there will always be a large percentage who have been partly responsible for what is happening.. the mega welfare budget
but that is another matter completely.. and it does include immigration, a subject that the government seem to place in a cotton-wool locked box and the lebelling say’s “Danger! Political Correctness Required”, that should apply to this situation too.

To think if these people never existed IDS would have no job nor would many working in the DWP, reality is when all this does come to pass, some may need to take a good hard look at themselves in the morror and ask themselves.. was that really job satisfaction or a deep inner hatred inside they get-off from tinpot power and decision making. I have a friend who worked in the DWP and he described it as the most depressing job he had ever done and left it. the impact it had on his life has been quite disturbing.. depressing, and he too is a statistic now. He described an inner sanctum where the culture amongst decision makers were sometimes on a mere whim or what side of the bed they got out of that morning, he told me of terrible decisions that were made and one would call unforgiving and he found it very hard indeed to distance himself from the human cost in relation to lives destroyed by such decisions.

The higher the level of decision making the colder and more immune the person becomes and that is why this coalition is hated as much as it is with no respite from a good majority of what they do. I do so believe the people of this country should have a greater percentage of say in what a government imposes upon the country, that is not to say the people can always be right but it is those who have to live with the consequences of a crazy policy made up by a politician who could not even lead his own party with any integrity some years back and is nothing more than a robot himself, if there was ever a degree of substance in those conspiracy theorists regarding reptilians who answer only to the Babylonian Brotherhood the perfect example is IDS.. cold exterior with very little facial expression, prone to outbursts of anger if people disagree with him and likes people to think he is a warm person and a gentleman. We know he is slimey.. but is he green with eye’s of lizard under those contacts… maybe we should call up david icke with a scalpel and see if his theories are true. 🙂

Exactly my thoughts which I have just posted to facebook (carefully worded of course). Whatever the lowliest most repugnent insect which exsists on this planet is, he is lower than that. Oh! Hell what I mean is this nasty piece of “cockroach” (actually cockroachs are nicer and much more honest) should be buried alive whilst we get to throw things at his head and other items….))

Won’t be long now, and the poor/indebted/unemployed will have to wear yellow appendages on their arms & be forced to scrub the streets clean before bein’ sent of to ‘labour camps’ (Or up chimneys) – exactly what the poor of this country were enlisted to fight against.

SchadenFRAUD ought to remember the debt he & the rest of his untalented, frankly parasitical family owe to the poor of this country. Family members of mine & a lot of the people who post on here didn’t put their lives on the line/give up their lives so that he could survive & try to wipe us out like he would’ve been if the nazis had got their way.

They fought & died so we could have a better standard of living, better homes & healthcare. They fought & died so privelege would be diluted (even though the priveleged still rule – What were the odds of schadenfraud becomin’ priveleged like he is in this country, in a nazi empire??)

They didn’t do that so that the people who benefitted most (like schadenfraud) could shit all over us, and send us back to medieval serfdom.

‘Stock’ is it? Arrogant, ungrateful tw*t. That sounds suspiciously like a term the gauleiters used to describe jews (like schadenfraud) in the ghettoes who were to be sent to the concentration camps. Wonder what ‘ziggy’ would make of lord schadenfraud usin’ that term.

Modern day ‘kapo’ is what he is, in my opinion. A ‘Szeryński’. For ‘The final design will be open to the market to devise’ read; “The final solution will be for the ‘stock’ to have their pitiful existences terminated at the behest of the conservative & private sector ‘Wansee conference’.

Perhaps that’s exactly what we need to do; create a movement that adopts a yellow star as a symbol for public protest. Our present situation isn’t like the one that the Jewish people of Germany found themselves in during 1930s Germany, but the conditions for something like that to happen are definitely being created. Obi Wan Konobi’s comment above is sufficient evidence that the coalition are creating the conditions for a potential ‘Kristalnacht’ event.

What does it matter?? I mean really!? The media are tellin’ us we’re all oh so fucking deliriously happy knowin’ that the lovely kate’s pregnant…….Well, aren’t we?

I’m ecstatic, me. :- /

I’m comfortable knowin’ that her & ‘wills’ are so nice & so caring that their nanny won’t be employed on NMW or even MWA for that matter. It might mean changin’ shitted nappies for about the first 2-3 years, but someone’s gonna get a bloody good job out of this…………..

I did read yesterday the following… “she will have 2 kids both males then a divorce once she’s provided a couple of healthy heirs. then he can do like his dad and marry some inbred titled old mare.” As it happens i think they are a nice couple and Kate seems like a nice girl but all this so-called good news is no place for the Tories to go hijacking it in order to go burying bad news like what ozzy will be spouting to the house tomorrow (Wednesday 5th). i noticed cameron was not short of coming out to extend his congratulations, before returning back to conducting the hammering of a few more nails in the coffin of Human rights.

Be careful what you say there Sib.. if you are fit to physically protest you are fit to work in many cases and again there is no depth they won’t sink to, this is no exception to that rule.. by the short and curlies is a thought that will come to the mind of those who feel like Citizen Smith. And that old chestnut “Between a rock and a Hard place” springs to mind. Many can only voice their opinions on the internet, the spirit might be willing but the flesh is weak… the government know that all too well. That is why people who are in this position need good honest upright people to support them and help fight for them in their corners. It’s sad in many ways.. as feeble as this sounds the government are being allowed to get away with what amounts to shooting bambi and trying to sell the meat to the poor and starving. I guess scrooge this christmas takes on a whole new meaning.

Lord Fraud is a prime example of what is really taking place. He was the twat who designed the New Deal for New Labour, and now is Welfare Reform Minister for the Tories, which shows that it makes no difference who you vote for. The two party system makes a mockery of Democracy and is in effect nothing less than the Hegelian Dialectic being enacted by the Masonic Overlords. Take to the streets in protest, do not comply, and if you have a job for God’s sake join a Union and GET OUT ON STRIKE !!!

we don’t know who will be providing this racket or how yet. but if the like of wonga ever get their hands on it then being blacklisted will no longer be a barrier – they get your money first and then could choose how much to hand over to you so there is no risk of loans going unpaid

For some Universal Credit will be the a death sentance (the one’s who can’t manage money or have debts on a regular basis – shall we say) but for others who are very good at managing their money and have no debts, pay their bills on time and don’t squander their money, this won’t change anything, in fact it may make things a lot easier.

Freud is apparently unpaid in the work he does for the DWP ,he says its because he is bored since he retired – he’s an ex banker ,he’s probably missing the buzz they get from ripping the public off ,his great grandfather was the basis of modern psychology ,and what is psychology – finding peoples vulnerabilities and exploiting them ,where are his ancestors from Germany – I rest my case – http://www.brokenbritiainundertories.com

The pilot scheme for this showed that the effect on people’s budgeting was greater than thought, and far more people than thought got in to difficulties. The reality is that small amounts of income are far far easier to manage on a weekly, or bi weekly basis. The psychological aspect of weekly income is very important and should not be dismissed or argued away. I know I found it very hard when my IB went from weekly to bi weekly. and then when it changed from monday to wednesdays. midweek is strangely harder than a week start.

That you know is being a bit disingenerous. No matter how hard we try there will always be something going on in the background which will derail us. The number one example is when your benefit gets stopped suddenly for no reason at all except for some admin cock up and if you have kids, its not the case of scrimping around and living off toast for a week, children have to be fed-or the SS will be on your doorstep. When a solution is dangling before your eyes you take it, then the trap closes and your hooked into a system you don’t wish to be in. I know, I once had my money stopped because of a “change of circumstance”, it was the normal yearly rise but some idiot thought it would be a laugh to make me wait for a week as I didn’t have the busfare to travel 15 miles to collect an emergency payment.

The rent is due at the beginning of the month, UC is paid monthly in arrears. I get a letter from the HA if I’m 1 day late with the rent. How many will I get when I one month in arraers. Will private landlords even put up with it?

Lord Fraud’s plans to chain us all into benefit debt with private companies. The £145million contract could pay a decent wage to 6,000 investigators to weed out the real benefit scroungers- but he knows there aren’t really that many and it wouldn’t be cost effective.

I will quote Woodie Guthrie:

Well, as through the world I’ve rambled, I’ve seen lots of funny men
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen

Latest on UJM – More proof that signing up to this is not mandatory – print off, put with your other forms and take to the Jobcentre the next time you sign on. – webpage link at the bottom.

PCS Public and Commercial Services Union

Department for Work and Pensions group
Universal Jobmatch – Update for Members
3 December 2012

Since it went live on 19th November, Universal Jobmatch has encountered various problems, such as the advertising of bogus vacancies, and is attracting wider public interest.

Following our initial discussions with DWP, the background to the new service was given in DWP/BB/153/12. In response to critical press coverage and enquiries from campaign organisations members and branches PCS pressured DWP for clearer information about the current difficulties with Universal Jobmatch. Additionally, PCS is receiving reports and queries from members concerned that some local managers appear to be putting pressure on advisors to misrepresent the mandatory nature of signing up to the new service.

Non Mandatory

At the recent meeting, DWP management confirmed that the use of Universal Jobmatch is non-mandatory. On the security issues, management acknowledged that there had been ‘teething issues’ but that these were being resolved. PCS has put pressure on management to ensure a human rather than an automated IT check for the placing of vacancies by employers, to avoid the embarrassment of the bogus MI6 vacancy being repeated.
PCS believes that it is essential for the future of the new service that jobseekers can have full confidence in the security of the system and trust and respect their employment adviser. It is therefore extremely damaging that some managers are putting pressure on jobcentre staff to tell jobseekers that they must register or
grant their adviser access to their Universal Jobmatch account. This is clearly not currently the position and to suggest that it is would amount to official misdirection. PCS is now seeking to establish exactly what the legal position is and in the meantime strongly advises members not to put themselves in the position of misinforming the public about Universal Jobmatch.

Performance Management

There is likely to be management pressure to hit the target of 80% of jobseekers using the system by August 2013. However, it is clearly inappropriate for individual targets to be applied to Universal Jobmatch account registration, and any reports of excessive pressure on advisors to hit this target should be raised locally with PCS in the first instance. PCS has also had some reports that in some areas it has been suggested that the rate of jobseeker registrations or even the possible number of jobseeker directions associated with Universal Jobmatch account registration may be used to assess performance or lead to some form of monitoring or even to a PIP. PCS advice is that it is impossible to see how this would be appropriate and that in all cases where it may arise members should talk to their workplace rep.

This is all part of the grand scam to destroys the benefits system and FUCK PEOPLE UP!
There is nothing else. All the fancy words, all the scummy schemes, they all amount to the same things: fucking people up for fun and profit. And if some die along the way, why it’s only ‘collateral damage’. That’s the lingo of these psychos.
They are doing what they’re doing to fuck people up.
And they love it.

Too right, this is the whole rasion d’etre for each and one of these scummy schemes that keep popping out of the gold-plated arses of Fre[a]d and his toff chums – TO FUCK PEOPLE UP!! You can almost here these toff cunts sat round the table [plummy accent]: “How can we FUCK THEM UP?” “I know, why don’t we…?” “Jolly spiffing idea, but why don’t we also make them… now that would really FUCK THEM UP.” 🙂

well well well im not but sometime soon i will wake up and all is gone away and find that people look after the sick and disabled not kill them ,and fleece them of little of whot they got ,are we to stand on the street corner rattling our tin cups so that we can eat nay i will wake up soon so that i may see my friends with full fires on and tables with food with the light switch on nah they even taken my dream away from me and to them where greed is so to much think sometime soon someone got to pay the bill for the abuse of us and that will come only hope i will see it jeff3

I am fucking FUMING! I have just watched a TV ad for the fucking Salvation Army: “Prevent someone becoming homeless and hungry over Christmas, give us £19”. Can you believe it, these cunts have the temerity to ask for £19 (which incidentally is round about the amount people will cough up with out thinking – crafty cunts!) to prevent destitution, the very same Sally fucking Army who are forcing “work programme” victims into destitution via the imposition of draconian sanctions. I am positively fucking FUMING!

Reblogged this on Guy Debord's Cat and commented:
Great blog from Johnny Void. (Lord) Freud’s proposals are simply cruel and barbaric. His solution for those on the Universal Credit (just the name says it all) who can’t manage their money is to burden them with more debt in the form of “financial products” or “loans/debts” as they’re better known. To say this government’s moral compass is faulty would be untrue. They never had a moral compass to start with.

What about all of the Pensioners and Learning Difficulties how are they going to manage? Seems as if they will put the vunerable into a position where they will be well and truly exploited. It is difficult enough being unemployed but at least we can try to make a stand for our rights.

Worse still, they are closing all Remploy factories saving £120m a year so that they can assign them to Disasbility Work Programmes. The policy people at Steel City House, Sheffield thought that disabled people are better integrated than isolated from people.

They believe they can get them into work using the Access to Work incentives but the reality is, few of these will get jobs. The intention is to wind it all up because the pension deficit is costing DWP who are obliged to underwrite their pension scheme.

Yes Liz, there is something we can all do. 1) Stop despairing and think logically – nothing will change is all anyone is prepared to do is moan and ask ‘Why isn’t somebody (else) doing something?’ 2) do something positive like setting up a local campaign, find others in the same boat, but only deal with those people actually prepared to get up off their backsides and do something – if you aren’t sure about what to do, then join and already existing organisation, there are plenty up and down the UK. 3) Join a union like the IWW or IWA as they encourage unemployed people to join, and are perhaps even more committed to change as they believe that workers should control everything. But don’t expect to sit back and let others do all the work, as all members are activists.

Creating a viable opposition to the crisis we face will take time, but in order to win we must start to organise, to come together. Beware, there will be some groups who will try the old, ‘follow us and all will be well’. Shun those groups like the plague, for you are mere cannon fodder to them. It’s much, much more than just organising against the welfare reforms and the attendant cuts, we must work towards the creation of our own welfare system that is in under our control.

Relying in the state is not an option. It might deliver for us in the short term, but sure as hell won’t in the long term, and we’ll have to deal with this kind of shit again in the future. Don’t trust any state, whoever is in control of it, be it Tory or Labour – they will all screw us.

I’ve just joined the IWW and am slowly getting my bearings. It may take a while for anyone to reply to you if you e-mail them, as there are no paid officials, so it’s all done on a voluntary basis. The IWA seem to have more of a public profile, through the SolFed website, but that will give you an idea of what they’re about – at the very least, if you decide to get involved, you will have the support of people who understand you, and who can help you to help yourself. One of the ways that authorities try to control us is to isolate us.

I can’t speak for the IWA, but membership dues for the IWW are £1 a month for an unemployed person, which I should think most of us can afford – till we get sanctioned.

Above all, we should not allow ourselves to get despondent – there are millions of people all around the world facing exactly the same crisis that we are. We can learn from one another.

I also suggest doing a websearch for groups in your area, there is most likely one – who also probably have a Facebook page, (ugh!) where they’ll post about meetings/actions.

I don’t know how experienced you are at opposing the system, from the sounds of it you are quite new to any of this. Take your time to become familiar, and don’t allow yourself to be pushed into anything before you are ready – no decent group will expect you to do that, and if they do, beware, as they could be the kind that use people as cannon fodder.

I’m in the process of writing an extensive blog posting that will cover people’s opposition, not just to welfare and benefit cuts, but also to those working towards a system that is not only achieveble but sane as well. There are a lot of interesting ideas out there, and even if we don’t take them up at least we’ll be better informed, which is always good when we get the opportunity to ask awkward questions.

Finally Liz, don’t be put off too much by the ‘revolutionary’ nature of both the IWW and IWA – both organisations are made up of very ordinary people who just want a decent life, preferably without bosses and politicians!

Joke.

There is a kind of air conditioning unit used in Mexico that is popularly known as a ‘politician’. It is so named because it makes a lot of noise but doesn’t do anything useful.

It’s all very well relying on blogs and tweets to stay informed, it’s a wonderful medium for that, but to create an effective opposition movement it must take to the streets.

Write a leaflet, get a few hundred (whatever you can afford/blag) photocopied and with a few friends/colleagues/fellow resistors go and distribute them in the street. Engage with people, tell them about what you’re doing.

Once you’ve got more than a handful of people ready and willing to take part in protests/demonstrations you can start to plan actions – it doesn’t have to be high impact, it can just be a few of you with placards or a banner and some leaflets demonstrating outside a user of forced labour – even if you’re protesting in support of disabled people, it’s the same cause. We mustn’t allow the bastards to divide and rule us. Disabled? So what, we are all humans with human needs that happen to differ, it isn’t a case of disabled people, but people with a disability.

Perhaps we need to start thinking in terms of starting to meet one another out in the real world, socially at first, so we can share thoughts, ideas and have a laugh – we mustn’t at all costs forget about humour, because that is one of our most effective weapons. There is lots of things we can do other than just the usual boring-but-necessary leaflet distribution. What about street theatre? Flash mob choirs that suddenly appear in shops that use Workfare that sing silly songs that ridicule the shop – if it’s really funny and gets the customers laughing means the message has hit home.

People need to go to the places that count, Tothill Street London where the Minister resides and where UC policy people are, Quarry House Leeds where a lot of the finance is done, and Rockingham House Sheffield where all the Work Programme and other Welfare to Work decisions are devised.

Actually, the Future Jobs Fund was reportedly, “although no doubt more research could usefully be done, the DWP analysis suggests the FJF was actually one of the most effective such schemes in recent history.”

Don’t want to pour cold water on your suggestions for a non-state funded welfare, but isn’t that what this government want us to do so they don’t have to pay out, but they will still be collecting national insurance contributions from those still on the paye to pay for pensioners. Then where would the money come from to keep the unemployed because nobody will donate to those that have been labelled scroungers just like they did to lone parents in the Thatcher era.

The only plan in the offing is a non state employed job centre, with claims online and the outsourcing of jobseeking means that JCP will cease to exist within 5 years and the staff will transfer to a company like Capita. This outsourcing will be paid by the state but will cost a lot less than the £2 billion in staff.

Jenny, you appear to be posting as if you have access to priveliged information – I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering what your source is.

I doubt your figures, as most so called privatisations actually cost the taxpayer more, as modern capitalism demands that profits are private whilst losses are public – just look at the railways, the banks, the Work Programme, increasingly our health services. I’m none too keen on the idea of bailing out state owned ‘lame ducks’ but I am totally opposed to the idea of subsidising private companies.

The whole idea is to get rid of the state. It means nothing less than a complete transformation of the way we live our lives. I won’t happen overnight, so in the interim it means no less than forcing the government to do what we want it to do. Of course, they want us to provide for ourselves, but they also want us to pay taxes – we simply refuse.

Guy Fawkes, I would suggest that rather than ‘pour cold water’ over positive suggestions you do some thinking and come up with more than your usual negativity. I am only one individual, so I do not have all the answers, and nor should I have. It takes more than one person to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s – and it’s a debate too. It doesn’t have to be based on money.

Try and think beyond the prison of the state. Sure, we may need some of the trappings of the state for some things, but ideally we really need to get rid of it entirely, as well as abolishing the rich – we do that by also abolishing the poor, who the rich stole from in the first place.

We need to look at what is happening in places like Greece, where people are having to come together and create their own institutions. Similar things happened in Argentina when their economy collapsed, people formed cooperatives that took over factories and food production, as is happening in Greece now.

We must always keep in mind that there are more of us than there are of them. Many groups will be sympathetic to our cause, as it’s not just the cause of the unemployed, but most workers also. Even the police are beginning to feel alienated by this government, which should tell us a lot.

Of course Daily Mail readers won’t donate, because they are basically arseholes, but please don’t tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone out there is a redneck idiot. Guardian readers, are, well, Guardian readers, and whist they may be way out of touch with the kind of reality we know, they are usually sympathetic – and can be a source of support. Not everyone believes the government lies.

So, stop being so negative, try and think of something positive, contribute to the debate instead of being so negative all the time.

Guardian readers (some) must be going the way of Question Time watchers – & starting to look again at what they might once have thought to be even a ‘vaguely reliable/sympathetic or comfortable’ place to look for information in support of their ‘left’/leftish/leftie – left behind(?) ideologies. In the Grauniad’s case: ‘infirmation’. There’s no longer a need to align yourself with a particular paper to be “out of touch with reality” as we speak/write – ‘reality’ is shifting so fast that staring at a television/radio or opening a ‘news’paper is an act of desperate nostalgia for [insert own preference] – when “things weren’t so grim” as they are right now (1964?).

It’s hard to know whether listening to/seeing the sad collusion with what’s being carried out ‘in plain sight’ or reading/hearing the meaningless words/questions (not) being raised, with a very few notable exceptions – (best not name any names, it might be wishful thinking/ a personal thing).
This week I can report that there were more voices of sanity and reason in a philosophy group I went to (age range was between 8-10 years-old) than seen/heard in any of the so-called mainstream press for some time – it’s probably always been that way – just that in some people’s lives old habits die hard (the paper they read/toilet paper they use/their misguided belief-systems). Etc.

By “get[ing] rid of the state” you really mean the WELFARE state don’t you? It is the old freeman/woman/, redneck, right-wing bullshit wrapped up in a sugar-coating. It is the “State” that writes and enforces the “Laws”; we are always going to have a “State”, you are just talking shit. Or do you just mean the part of the “State” that doesn’t suit you and your toff chums. You really must think we are fucking stupid!

sibrydionmawr, why quote failing economies like they are good ideas, better to adopt the policies of Brazil, Canada and Malaysia, economies that seem to do well. Greece failed because there were too many public sector workers and too many tax dodgers, sounds like the UK. You picked the wrong South American model. Pick Brazil, OK we might not have their natural resources and food but we should concentrate on what we are good at, financial services and engineering innovation. We should also make food production viable again so were are self sufficient, food prices have surely made this economic enough to consider it.

I used the examples of Greece and Argentina as illustrations of what people can do on their own to improve their lot in a situation where the economy, through no fault of the ordinary people, is imploding. The UK’s economy isn’t yet at that kind of crisis point, but if the economic policies of the buffoons who make up the present government are followed we shall fairly soon be in a position to have to provide our own services or have none. The Tory economics don’t add up, and instead of the economy improving, it will get worse. The Greek government also gave in to the vultures of the ECB and IMF when the decent thing to have done would have been to have defaulted. (Which is ultimately what will happen anyway, as the Greek people, if they have any sense at all will demand it) OK, so that would involve a relatively brief period of pain, but not the long, drawn out suffering that they are suffering now.

Canada’s economy is set to go pear shaped, as whilst the federal debt is low, the debt burden of the provinces and municipalities is extremely high, with an economy in decline.

Brazil’s economy is doing ok, at the moment, but as the world-wide economy slows down Brazil’s presently buoyant economy will take a hit. Quite why you chose the Malaysian economy, with it’s heavy state intervention and subsidy of essential items of life, such as food and fuel I’m not quite sure. Of course, their economy has seen phenomenal growth, but they were starting from a low base, as was Brazil, and industrialising with current technology. I’m sure that economic growth was even more spectacular when the UK’s was an industrialising economy.

There is nothing inherently wrong with public sector workers, they do the job efficiently, only it’s hard for capitalist bastards to make any money out of them, and they are usually politically much stronger than those working in private industry – and less exploited.

Maybe for you Jenny, the apparent Tory Capitalist lover I picked the wrong models, but I chose them carefully, as I for one believe in fairness, democracy and in worker control. The financial services sector that you say the UK is ‘good at’ seems to the statement of a fool, given the banking crisis – all the financial services sector is, is a well organised gang of thieves. The UK is a place that does have a lot of engineering innovation, but that is absolutely no good if there isn’t the infrastructure here to capitalise on that.

And really, though the UK’s balance of payments isn’t anything to write home about, it’s in better shape than many other economies, such as Germany, the USA, France etc.

The sole reason for the cuts in the name of austerity is ideology, and a nasty, evil ideology that casts the unemployed, the sick, the disabled and the dying as something less than human.

Brazil and Malaysia are not Capitalist economies. I chose these because you chose to highlight 2 countries in disarray and I chose contrasting economies. Greece and Malaysia examples of state economies, Argentina and Brazil, South American economies which contrast.

I think that you’ll find that both Brazil and Malaysia are both capitalist economies, as that’s the only show in town – however, I do concede that there are varieties of capitalism, broadly speaking market capitalism and state capitalism. For the record, I don’t advocate either kind of capitalism, but until we come up with something better, that’s what we have to use. My use of the examples I did is to show that ordinary people do have a practical and workable response for then their economies are wrecked by their governments, whether they be state capitalist or market capitalist.
I don’t for a moment consider that a wrecked economy is the kind of thing to celebrate, but the coping strategies of ordinary people affected by economic collapse are, I think, to be marvelled at, remembered, and emulated. It won’t be too long before we need those same coping strategies ourselves the way things are going.

The governments and capitalist run economies of these countries may be in disarray, but their peoples are not. We have a lot to learn from them. I don’t think we can learn much from corrupt bankers and politicians.

I don’t think I am negative because I queried where funding would be coming from given the economic climate and the castigation of the sick and unemployed, I think I was being realistic actually but I hope you are right about guardian readers donating because we will need all the help we can get – I suppose that is a negative statement too.

We know why they are doing it, and whilst it may seem like ‘clever talk’ it is actually an interchange of ideas. Of course, talk on it’s own won’t change a damned thing, but you stating the bleeding obvious achieves absolutely nothing. What we need at the moment are positive ideas, possible ways of challenging these changes, not some idiot telling us what we already know.

We would have to struggle to find the funding ourselves. Guardian readers may have their heads up their arses a lot of the time, but their hearts are usually in the right place, and they can usually be depended on to donate the cost of the odd latte or two. But I suspect that the largest amount of support would come from ordinary people like ourselves, who know only too well what it’s like to hit hard times. That’s what so strange about all these charities taking on Workfare placements. They may get the odd large donation from a wealthy person, but the vast bulk of the giving to charities is from people who are far from well off. I’m sure you’re familiar with the kind of support that working-class communities give to local charities, organising fundraisers for the local children’s hospice etc. These are the people who know in their bones that the Tories, the Sun and the Daily Mail lie to their teeth, and also know what it’s like to endure hardship.

It’s hard to give a definitive answer as to how an alternative scheme would be funded and it is of course a valid question, but there are many ways that support could be garnered – and the less use of the state the better, as that always ends up as a stick to beat us with. Do a web search to find out about the alternative welfare state that operated during the 1984-85 miner’s strike, that should also give you some insight about what can be achieved.

Don’t forget, until the Welfare State was created in the late 1940s people had to make their own provisions, and that led to a plethora of different self-help interventions such as burial clubs, friendly societies, even healthcare systems. The Cooperative movement that we are now familiar with was started by the efforts of ordinary working people fed up with having to buy from corrupt shopkeepers selling the workers inferior and often adulterated food at excessive prices – that’s something that we could well emulate today, as we can use the system against itself. We all know that the supermarkets exploit both the shoppers and the producers (e.g. farmers) who are pressurised into selling at a low price, subject to the silly quality controls imposed by the supermarkets that insist that perfectly good, and edible food isn’t up to scratch because it doesn’t fit their criteria of what that particular product should be – ‘mishaped’ potatoes, eggs, carrots etc. (You’d not believe the amount of perfectly good organic fruit and veg that is wasted because it isn’t the shape a supermarket has deemed should have, or because it has some kind of slight blemish) Even if it is acceptable, the producer only gets a low price, whilst the retailers make more and more profit every year. If you can get a number of people together and create a buying group you have the basis of direct trade with local farmers, both groups win, as the farmer gets a price above that the supermarkets would pay him and the members of the buying group get produce that is cheaper and fresher than they can buy in the supermarkets. This kind of thing has been done all over the place, and even internationally, but we don’t often get to hear about them because the Tescos, Sainsburys and Morrisons and their friends the politicians don’t want us to know these things, and most crucially, don’t want us taking control and leaving them out of the equation.

True, it would be hard to find the initial capital that such a scheme would require, which is where the friendly Guardian reader type comes in, either to make a donation or interest free loan. It provides a lever to use with local politicians, they rely in your vote, so can be ‘persuaded’ to help with the setting up of a local scheme. If they refuse to help, get in touch with the local paper and tell the facts. Local schemes like this are great, because on the surface they are non-threatening and not contraversial, and even the Tories would have to approve. Labour politicians might find it a little harder, as they like it that you have to grovel to them for anything, it gives them a sense of power, but they are also aware that if they don’t support you they would look bad. But basically you are casting a plague on all their houses,and using them as they once used you. Once you have your own systems in place, (and it would take a fairly long time) you don’t need anyone else, and you wouldn’t be too pleased if someone tried to muscle in on something that a lot of people had worked hard to create.

I didn’t mean to offend Guy Fawkes, but rather so suggest that we all start imagining a different future. That’s where all great changes start, in someone’s imagination. Let’s not let some Tory bastard’s dream become our nightmare. No one person has all the answers, not even that clown IDS, let’s prove him and his ilk wrong. Together we can sort this out, but as fearful individuals quaking in our alienated boots, I don’t think we have a chance.

With regard to charities and Workfart, it is understandable that they should participate, even if I do not approve.
Ignoring work schemes, charities relied upon volunteers extensively.
If the DWP show up and say they will give money to the charity to have staff sent for work experience then it is no surprise they will sign up
They are better off than they were before the scheme. Probably just get a shit ton of paperwork for their troubles.

This to me illuminates the central issue. We have public and private institutions bargaining for labour, IRREGARDLESS of the welfare of the individual involved. The set up is completely arse about face.

Even the rhetoric has changed. All administrations have previously talked first about getting people in a better position to get back into work. Mostly spurious claptrap , but at least it was a nod to the needs of the unemployed individual.
That seems to have been dropped. This government has focused latterly almost exclusively on the deficit, how much benefits are costing the tax payer, the amount lost through fraud and so on one lie after another false statistic.
No consideration of the individual’s situation and requirements
Just hit the fekking targets.

“Some of my best friends” (used to be) Grauniad readers. Some of them are even, unless I have been dreaming all this time, “ordinary people like ourselves”. We can’t really know them or their left-leaning motives but they’re probably not all completely “harmless” – unless you are one of them yourself & then choose to stereotype them as middle class/do-gooders – that’s fine.

It’s not ok to stereotype groups of people or to make assumptions about the coffee they use/how much they can afford to donate (Of course there’s a popular image that goes with whatever paper people read – we’ve all gone there). Anyone can read anything – (it’s how much they believe what they read) and it might be ok to say “you are what you eat” but “you are what you read” ? I’m less sure about – if it’s just ‘news’ – it would be different if we could see their entire bookshelf(s)/cookery collection.

I’m well aware of the dangers of stereotyping, but they do serve to get a point over. Of course they are a crude indicator, and that is their only merit. I have a friend who is a loyal Guardian reader, he isn’t from a middle-class background, and he, predictably, comes in for some leg-pulling from me

Joe and Josephine Bloggs are not interested in setting up “buying group” or the mechanics of distribution systems – the couldn’t care less; they want to be able to shop in their local Tesda and Asco; and they want enough cash in their pocket to enable them do so. It doesn’t matter what “social group” they belong to – they want MONEY. We all want MONEY. Because we are ALL GREEDY. Have you seen how people behave at funerals? It is what couples argue about most MONEY. Nobody gives a shit as long as THEY get THEIR MONEY! All this talk of “co-operatives” is bullcrap; they all turn to shit in front of your eyes. If it wasn’t for the State-controlled and back-up Welfare State those who couldn’t earn a crust would die – and this was the case before the inception of the Welfare State and is still the case in other “less developed” countries. It is human nature!

Money is useful, a means to an end, but it isn’t the be all and end all. The idea that money is everything has created the very situation we’re in. I am unemployed, and therefore get my JSA of £71 a week, plus HB. I have some debts, which I have ‘negotiated’ (Administration Order from a court) to the point that I’m paying it off at £5 a month. I have some arrears on my rent too, but I’m paying that off at £5 a week. I am not greedy, and money is of little interest to me, as long as I have enough to get by, which I do. I manage to save quite a bit as well. Admittedly, a year ago I would have found this difficult, as I was then a smoker, and giving that up has made a huge difference. I’ve had to cut out the Amazon habit recently, as they are involved in the Workfare scam. Even when I was working and not earning a huge amount, comparatively, (c.£15,000 pa net) I lived well within my means , even though I was buying ‘stuff’ I did not make the mistake of taking out loans – been there, learned a lesson or two.

I suggest that Joe and Josephine Bloggs will begin to take an interest in any scheme that puts food in their bellies, and maybe even a roof over their heads once the shit hits the fan and they lose their benefits or jobs.

If I had money, (I mean lots of it) and yes, it is useful, I would use it to properly fund resistance to this government as well as taking myself off dependency on it. As it is I have been ‘fortunate’ enough to have recently received a tax rebate, some of which is being used to fund the opposition in a small way. The rest, well that’s being saved for a ‘rainy day’, maybe one wet afternoon when I am sanctioned.

What you may say about funerals may have some truth about it. I’m sure there will be some like you describe in my own family, but not me. If I inherit anything, that will be nice, and it will be used to further a cause I believe in, but honestly, I’m not bothered about inheriting anything.

“.. until the welfare state was created in the 1940s people had to make their own provisions” or put another way “… until the welfare state was created in the 1940s child and adult poverty was endemic” “Newspaper would be used as a tablecloth in some households. A child who’s parent had any form of serious health issues and where there weren’t reliable adult family members on hand to help (lone parents were rare but circumstances did lead to this for some women) would end up regularly missing from school. When they were able to manage to attend school more regularly their main meal in the middle of the day was not unlikely to be jam & bread” – just some examples of where the welfare state stepped in post-1940. Before the NHS the least well off people were quite simply ‘buggered’.

More long-winded guff telling us all what we already know. These cunts are Nazis.
And btw, I’ve been more actively involved in my time than you can imagine.
In the face of what is going on there is only one response. Direct action.
They are busy killing, as you are busy having a go at me.
Typical Tory tactics.
They have brainwashed eejits like you, turning it all into an intellectual conflict as they shovel people into the ovens, metaphorically speaking.
You will obfuscate all by arguing how many angels dance on the head of a pin, stultifying others into confused inaction.
Again, direct action. Not specious argument.

Apart from the state for full protection under full enfranchisement just could not happen. The state needs to be the underwriter for the ‘national insurance’ as it has [ignoring neo-liberal capitalism] the ability to print money – our state owns the central bank, quite a unique position compared to many of these other economies. Non state would be impossible, and is just the dismantling philosophy of the Tories getting us in this state.

Anarchism sounds fund, but in reality would still eventually lead to its own system of governance. It’s human nature.

I’m not taking offence I’m getting quite used to heated debates, you are obviously well read which takes a lot of sitting on your arse too, so when you start up a group let us know. I have been trying since 2001 to do just that until I was locked up in 2008 by the authorites who support cuts and the introduction of charities, as most of those in local government are running them and they have their own self serving agenda’s which were running community associations and social hoousing, using the unemployed as cheap labour or a non -waged workforce under the threat of sanction – is it any wonder I was getting nowhere. I could get no funding as those that supported my differing views were sanctioned themselves and the authorities were funding charities which I am against, due to the fact they are undermining statutory benefits.

Less ‘sitting on my arse’ these days, as I read a lot many years ago, am a fast reader and am good at researching. Most of my ideas are based on facts, i.e. systems that have existed and, for a time, existed, sometimes not for long, but then nothing really lasts, and even when it does, it means a lot of hard work

You seem to have been very unfortunate in your experiences trying to do something positive, and I know the frustrations of actually caring enough to make an attempt. Sadly, Jools is correct about many people, maybe even the majority, and I’m sure you’ve had that response too, in place of the hostility displayed by the powerful, the housing associations, council etc, you have been greeted by apathy – but these are the very people who will come flooding to us, wanting us to ‘do’ something, when the shit really hits the fan and they suddenly remember that at one time you, almost singlehanded, tried to establish some opposition. I don’t intend to do anything for someone, as I believe they are capable of doing something themselves, with perhaps a few pointers that enable them to make their own minds up what to do.

@Jools, and others who use the ‘human nature’ argument. As human nature can be anything to do with the way that humans behave, the statement ‘it’s just human nature’ is totally meaningless. It’s true that there are theories of human nature. The human nature argument can used to justify all kinds of horrors, e.g. murder is ‘human nature’ rape is ‘human nature’ the Holocaust was a result of ‘human nature’. Get my drift – just because something is human nature does not mean that we should just accept it as ‘natural’ and ‘normal’.

ps My philosophy is that anything to do with welfrare benefits and social housing should be run by those in that situtation who are compassionate,yet not afraid to fight national government and the press over cuts.

It’s a pity that we aren’t able to discuss our ideas away from this forum, as I feel that we aren’t actually that far apart, Guy Fawkes. It would also help avoid the interjections of our friend who insists on calling me a troll – what an interesting twist! I shall give him/her a little more ammo – I’m Welsh speaking too, what do you make of that?

The ideas I’m suggesting may seem a little ‘pie-in-the-sky’ but so far the only ‘alternative’ that anyone else is suggesting is ‘more of the same’, a state run, state sponsored system run by politicians. That’s great whilst you have caring politicians as existed in the UK during the period of the post WW2 Consensus, when Labour and Conservatives were busy trying to outdo each other over who could run the Welfare State better, but once Thatcher got in and Labour abandoned what few principles it had, people became increasingly disillusioned, stopped voting, (why bother, what’s the point?) thus allowing the Tories and their friends New Labour to exploit the democratic deficit and dismantle welfare provision. Even if providence intervened and the Tories/New Labour were to be spirited away, never to be seen again and the Welfare State restablished in it’s full glory we’d be at the mercy of politicians, and subject to having it taken away again.

I don’t have all the answers, but I do know that if Cameron, IDS and Co have their way then the only help that we’ll get is that which we provide for ourselves.

Destroy the entire rotten system.
Maybe then you can talk about ‘buying groups’.
Everything has failed up to now. That much is fucking obvious.
A revolution is essential.
Middle class waffle is what it is. Tripe.

sibrydionmawr |
>>>>>>>>>
This cunt reminds me of the cunts who used to disrupt things during the Thatcher junta.
Get everybody arguing amongst themselves about irrelevant shit while the Tories get on with their robbing and killing.
Seen it all before, firsthand.

Young people and families with children are increasingly facing homelessness, according to a study, which says rising numbers of people are finding themselves without a roof over their heads.
The report, from Heriot-Watt University and the University of York, says all forms of homelessness are continuing to rise in England, and argues that “deepening benefit cuts are likely to have a much more dramatic impact on homelessness”.
It concludes: “All of the indications are that the expanding risk of homelessness is heavily concentrated … on the poorest and most disadvantaged sections of the community, who lack the financial and/or social ‘equity’ that enables most people to deal with work or relationship crises without becoming homeless.”
The report says national rough sleeper numbers rose by 23% in the year to autumn 2011, from 1,768 to 2,181 – “a more dramatic growth dynamic than anything seen since the 1990s”.
The number of families who ask for assistance from authorities because they are about to lose their homes rose from 40,020 in 2009/10 to 50,290 in 2011/12. “This increase in statutory homelessness has disproportionately affected families with children,” the report says.

who was talking about buying groups? – i was talking about funding for opposition purposes to do with organising and the movement of people, not sat in an office, although someone would have to organize from a base.

I have no tool bar to emulate your little feet symbol so I’ll just call you little feet. I have just read your last post regarding homelessness and how these reports insult people, I quote “disadvantage sections of the community, who lack the financial and /or social ‘equity’ that enables most people to deal with work or relationship crises without becoming homeless”. What they lack is a home and the means to finance it , not all the social equity crap that implies a multitude of derrogative failings on the part of the victim.

Another Tory outrage. I have had dealings with Freud over fact that Gov must implement payment of a housing allowance to Fostercarers across the board. He was clueless and his slick replies obviously written by people who really do his job: Civil Servants
Later listening to him on Radio 4.I had my earlier opinion of how clueless Freud is reaffirmed.
The man has no good workable ideas whatsoever. The Uk is wealthy. Austerity is bid to reduce aspirations of the .MiddleClasses al la Agenda 21. If u are poor you are just a useless eater. According to Eton Wankers and others. Of their ilk.

I had been on incapacity/income support for numerous mental health and health problems and i have three children 19yrs 12yrs and just turned 2yrs. I was told to attend atos medical. I then received a letter stating i no longer am entitled to incapacity/income support i have been put in the work category of esa. I looked it up why have they done this my youngest has just turned 2 so i shouldnt have to go to the job centre every fortnight? Until she is 5 it was seven last year. Also esa is only paid for a year it will not be paid after a year. So the system has already put the process of this new so called benefit in place. I guess after a year on esa you will be put onto that for a year then what as that is also only paid for a year?. If low income households are able to get the rent for their housing paid to them the so called goverment is dangling a carrot infront of them to “borrow” it they wont ever be able to catch back up with the rent will make themselves intentionally homeless so no housing provider other then private renting is an option. So more of our population mainly those that have been born here will be in debt up to their eyeballs and living rough or worst still committing suicide. As if you look at lastest figures of suicide since the benefit changes so far is high enough. Is our goverment playing genocide. Our country is over populated. Our goverment are heavily influenced by china who also use systems to keep the population down as well as limiting the number of children per household.

I’ve been pondering this issue regarding China. Did you Dispaches on Monday 3rd December? – Because it seems to me we are moving closer to a communist state – are our polatitions being serverly and unduly influenced regarding the welfare state?

Actually the Tory/New Labour policies on welfare are more informed/influenced by US practice, but no matter, an authoritarian state is an authoritarian state – it doesn’t really matter if it’s Communist or Fascist. But even under the awful Communist regime in East Germany basic welfare was a citizens right. They may not have had much freedom, but they didn’t starve.

Going off the subject a bit ,but some banks are targeting individuals with bogus fraud detections on their card and are declining their payment requests, issuing new cards and then still declining any known regular legitimate payments from being made ,until you not only telephone the bank who could, be will not, deal with it, instead putting you in a fraud line queue until you give up waiting for a reply – result you cannot forward your payment and no cheque book to send a cheque ,therefore incurring extra charges to unpaid company, not to mention the cost of your phone bill. The corporates are organised enough to disrupt peoples they jchoose to target.

Sometimes a bank will raise a security query when they detect unusual activity on your account – a real pain in the arse if it’s yourself that has done something a little out of the ordinary, but sometimes, (quite often actually) someone has got hold of your card details and is using them to pay for stuff. Basically the bank’s IT security isn’t as good as they try to tell us it is.

ps I double checked last post before posting which now appears to have odd letters incorporated into it and spelling errors – should read until you not only telephone the bank who could BUT will not deal with it ……….

The so called aspirations of those considered to be middle class is doing all the civil service work required of them i.e. bashing the poor writing high handed reports demonizing them. The middle class think because they know a few big words they can talk down to those they are attacking, those that are intelligent enough to know what is going on either keep quiet or leave these ASPIRATIONAL positions. Perhaps you should change your aspirations to inspirations and champion those that abolished slavery, or started up union movements or the welfare state not people who want to starve others into submission and their way of thinking.

Well, let’s all hope that the Tory plans for a miracle economy with jobs for all materialises before UC comes in. But there are unlikely to be jobs for all as we’ll all be on forced labour schemes for our UC and those sanctioned will starve because there are no jobs because they’ve all been filled with forced labour.

your link to your last post was informative for anyone who doesn’t already know what is going on, but I can’t help thinking the author was bringing into play the religious aspect, with a view to carrying on the aspirations of poor bashing and soul saving when the state have declined, and I am a religious person myself but find faiths full of hypocrites. The charities serve as a source for the rich to offset their taxes and the poor to be victimized yet again.

Guy Fawkes, “but find faiths full of hypocrites”. It has always been so but I would use the “organised religions” rather than faiths. The U.K and USA for better or worse have a long Christian history so some observations regarding those particular religions. The USA was founded by the stealing of Indian lands and it’s economy was slave based. Many of the “protestant” people who headed West to conquer the Americas did so under the pretext of spreading the “Good News” to the poor “heathens” and had to largely ignore the the precepts of Jesus about the dangers of wealth by resorting to the “Old Testament” to sanctify their greed.

The Catholic wing of Christianity, in the form of the conquistadors, were involved in the most vile acts imaginable in their rape of the southern Americas and the response of their Church echoes’s and resounds down through the ages – the sound of silence, or at best repeating the warnings of Christ in an encyclical that could be safely ignored if the threat of excomminucation was missing.

That Christians have often been at the forefront, and continue to be, of urging care for the poor doesn’t detract from the fact that all too often organised religion has given the wealthy, greedy and powerful an easy time whilst ignoring the very dire warnings of the gospels that they should have given to those same people. It is all to easy for an established Church to become the Church of the Establishment.

Somebody above mentioned a tv documentary on the BBC from last week in which a particular building in new York epitomised the Ayn Rand utopia /hell of the rich and I wanted to vomit when I saw a fat prelate backslapping a multi-billionaire for giving, what is loose change for him, a “charitable” donation to the poor. The Chrsitianity of the USA in general is the Church of Capitalism and the U.K is now seeking to outdo it in the global race of greed.

If there is anybody with a spirtual bent but is completely turned off by the hypocrites who often represent Chrsitianity get a hold a New Testament from a charity shop and take a pencil and underline the the most grevious warnings relating to wealth and the mistreatment of the poor. You might not find a Church locally that practices it but at least you might come to believe, whatever your conception of the divine is, that somebody else does.

CallMeDave let his Freudian slip show today at PMQ’s, words to the effect of ” we mustn’t punish the rich for being rich by raising taxes”.But he’ll happily punish the poor for being poor by taking away their tax credits & cutting benefits in the misguided belief that letting the rich keep more somehow it’ll “trickle down”. Didn’t work in the 80’s, won’t work now

Kittycat, they don’t even really believe in the ‘trickle down’ effect; it’s just a promise of ‘jam tomorrow’ and is akin to the promise of a better life in the hereafter we get from religion- to keep us content and compliant in the belief that we will enjoy a better life, sometime- IF we do as we’re told. But no employer ever gave away anything, no millionaire ever became rich by being kind and generous; the only way we’ll get fairness and equitable distribution of the wealth that is and can only be created by physical toil is to take it.

Kittycat 58 I hear the slip also and watching the afternoon news they said to someone on welfare why should you not have a freeze on benefits when workers have to take a freeze on wages. If the cost of living rises so should both wages and benefits and whereas the workers will use unions and strikes to get what they want they are not getting cuts like those on welfare only freezes.

According to ShiteNews Adam Bullshit said that Housing Benefit is to be frozen at 1% for the next 3 (at least years). Round here the landlord racks the rent up by 7-8% a year. Will tenants on Housing Benefit be expected to make up the shortfall? Are we going to get to the stage where Housing Benefit wont even pay the rent? Adam Bullshit was spot on though when he commented that: “aren’t the government calculating that the self-interests of the majority will outweigh the penalisation of the poor”. And who was that tosser who didn’t give a shit so long as “disablitiy and carers allowance received the full increase” – what a cunt! Seems like its each man/woman for themselves in Shithole Britain – smart move Georgie Boy 🙂

Reblogged this on The Pua Melia Clinic and commented:
Oh my…..I am currently having to deal with this as at the momenht as I am trying to set up my business thing and I am on this Work Programme which does nada for people with degrees etc! This new website is just as bad as from what I can see.

The likes of Camoron, Gideon, Lord Fraud and IDS remind me of that scene in the Young Ones when they went on University Challenge and the toffs chant “hurrah hurrah hurrah we’re going to smash the oiks”.

I can just well imagine that evil quartet doing this.

I go to the interrogation centre on Thursday for my fortnightly ritual humiliation and this time I am armed with my proof that Universal Jobmatch is non mandatory, so they can put that in their pipe and smoke it.

and on another point of course people have got to be crushed on benefits we need the money to give to all the myriads of “help me i am bieng persecuted” twats we have let into the country since kosovo
its easier to destroy the english poor and sick nobody gives a toss about us they are all laughing at us in europe foisting their spongers on us ..come on it costs up to 20 grand a throw for some of them to get illegaly transported here …i remember once i had a real bad toothache and the only way i thought i could get it seen to was in a drop in centre ..but guess what no deal it had wall to wall pakistanis in there with the same idea! i personally dont give a damn what color or creed people are but im sick of this country not looking after its own and putting them first and instead of kicking the crap out of incapacity benefits single parents and the like why dont we kick these bastards off it first
and another thing all you people who have jobs and whining and toadying up to our fuhrer dave to crush these scroungers on benefits
well when youve realised the way this country is going with dave at the helm
and youve lost your jobs tell me who you are so i can laugh in your faces
when you start weeping that your getting no help either ….you make me sick the lot of you crapping on about “youd take a job cleaning bogs etc if you wanted to work ..get real!” if you want fairness get our fuhrer to take a static caravan ..a landline fone on bt easypay (of course he can have a flag to fly)
a wifi hotspot 80 quid aweek and a state moped to travel around on if he was realy into doing whats right for england but no he has millions in inherited coin a bloody castle in scotland and 3 grand suits when we can get out of putting these “bloodliners” in power we might stand a chance

and no i am not a member of ukip the bmp or the aryan brotherhood and i am not tatooed with images of odin or thor ss runes etc i am just an ill old soldier who once fought for this country and suffered bad wounds that is now fit for action again …..ATOS MACHT FRIE….MEIN FUHRER

Only when you can convince serving soldiers of your argument, will we have a change of governance type in this country. We in the west have supplied arms to overthrow what they have called dictatorships in other countries, who will return the favour to us?

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By John Pring Disability News Service 3rd May 2018 A national network of mental health service-users, survivors and activists is facing closure next month if it cannot secure new funding, after becoming the latest victim of competition from large, non-user-led … Continue reading →

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Due to the Kingsgate Community Centre being closed over Xmas 2019 the last KUWG meeting for 2019 is Thursday 19th December, recommencing in 2020 Thursday 9th January. Happy Post-Election Xmas, if possible!

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