North Carolina Church Boots Boy Scouts as Allowing Girls Who Identify as Boys Last Straw

MOORESVILLE, N.C. — A church is North Carolina has decided to no longer allow a local chapter of the Boy Scouts of America to meet at its house of worship as the organization’s recent decision to allow the membership of girls who identify as boys seemed to be the last straw following its admittance of open homosexuals in 2013 and 2015.

“For more than 10 years, Coddle Creek Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church has hosted and chartered Boy Scout and Cub Scout groups. However, due to decisions by the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) regarding matters of homosexuality and gender identity, the … church has determined that our church can no longer continue as partners … of BSA,” Andrew Shoger, the pastor of Coddle Creek, said in a statement on Wednesday.

He outlined that the church cannot join hands with those whose policies are in contradiction to the Law of God.

Coddle Creek will fulfill its contractual agreements to allow time for Troop 169 and Cub Scout Pack 169 to find a meeting place elsewhere, but will not renew the group sponsorship.

As previously reported, the Boy Scouts announced in January that it had decided to change its policy on “transgender” membership after the mother of a nine-year-old girl filed a complaint with the New Jersey Division on Civil Rights over her child being released from the local Cub Scout pack since she is not a boy.

“For more than 100 years, the Boy Scouts of America, along with schools, youth sports and other youth organizations, have ultimately deferred to the information on an individual’s birth certificate to determine eligibility for our single-gender programs. However, that approach is no longer sufficient as communities and state laws are interpreting gender identity differently, and these laws vary widely from state to state,” the organization said in a statement on Jan. 30.

“Starting today, we will accept and register youth in the Cub and Boy Scout programs based on the gender identity indicated on the application,” it wrote.

The leadership of the Boy Scouts of America has likewise decided in recent years to alter its policies to allow boys who are openly homosexual to serve in the organization, as well as those who wish to serve as troop leaders.

“The Boy Scouts of America will not sacrifice its mission, or the youth served by the movement, by allowing the organization to be consumed by a single, divisive, and unresolved societal issue,” the organization said in a statement in 2013 following its vote on whether prospective scouts should be denied membership “on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.”

However, as previously reported, the Boy Scouts of America, founded in 1909, was created to mirror the British Boy Scouts, and was stated by some to be a Christian organization.

“Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity,” wrote British founder Sir Robert Baden-Powell in a 1917 publication entitled “Scouting & Christianity.”

John L. Alexander, one of the founders of the Boy Scouts of America, also expressed this sentiment in the 1911 handbook.

“The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no boy can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing his obligation to God,” he wrote. “The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe, and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary to the best type of citizenship and is a wholesome thing in the education of the growing boy.”

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Grace Kim Kwon

A good church. Truth first. Girls should not identify as boys and vice versa. Children need education by the truth. Education is worthy only if truth is taught.

Grace Kim Kwon

Whatever happened to Americans? Americans should never be afraid to disclude girls from boy’s gatherings and boys from girls’ gatherings. It’s not like discluding colored people from white people’s schools. A totally different matter.

Johndoe

Nope. Atheists and gays are no more evil than anyone else. Atheists and gays here are Americans and have the same rights as every other American. If you were American, you would understand how this country works.

Amos Moses

they are as evil or even more so …… they lie to themselves ….. they now expect everyone to believe their lies …… and sue them when they do not ………..

TheLastHonestLawyer

OK, show me where some has sued successfully to force another to accept an atheistic view on anything.

Amos Moses

first ….. a-theism and secularism are similar but NOT the same thing ………. second, no one has to sue to do that, it is being enforced through other means ……. third, this nation was never set up as a secular nation anymore than it was set up as a christian nation ……. but it was a nation of christians who set up a nation that was for the basic christian and friendly to christianity and no other religion but ESPECIALLY not to subvert or trod down christianity ….

§ 1871. The real object of the (1st) amendment was, not to countenance, much less to advance Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity (Atheism), by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment, which should give to an hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government. It thus cut off the means of religious persecution, (the vice and pest of former ages,) and of the subversion of the rights of conscience in matters of religion, which had been trampled upon almost from the days of the Apostles to the present age. The history of the parent country had afforded the most solemn warnings and melancholy instructions on this head; and even New England, the land of the persecuted puritans, as well as other colonies, where the Church of England had maintained its superiority, would furnish out a chapter, as full of the darkest bigotry and intolerance, as any, which could be found to disgrace the pages of foreign annals. Apostacy, heresy, and nonconformity had been standard crimes for public appeals, to kindle the flames of persecution, and apologize for the most atrocious triumphs over innocence and virtue.

TheLastHonestLawyer

I never said atheism and secularism were that same. I would fight against a state attempt to impose atheism as hard as I fight the attempts to make a particular religion the law of the land.

That quote comes from Joseph Story, an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in the early 19th Century. It was in his his book, Commentaries on the Constitution Vol. 3. Which means it was not part of any law or opinion handed down by the Supreme Court. Story was a brilliant jurist, but what you quoted does not establish the US as a Christian Nation.

Of course people have to resort to the courts when issues of Constitutional rights come up, as that was the reason the Federal judiciary was set up! If your state passed a law making Buddhism the state religion, and ordering all other faiths to close their churches, would you just accept it? No! You’d fill a suit in federal court stating that the law violated your First Amendment rights. The ACLU would represent you, and you’d win in a slam dunk.

Amos Moses

“That quote comes from Joseph Story, an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in the early 19th Century. ”

so what ….. when it was made is not relevant ……….. it is history ……. he was a SCOTUS justice ….. his opinion of the law and history are VALID …….

TheLastHonestLawyer

It’s not relevant to a discussion on the legal status of religion in our nation. Justice Story was not ruling on a case before the court, he was writing as a private citizen.

Amos Moses

“Justice Story was not ruling on a case before the court, he was writing as a private citizen.”

so what …. it is SCOTUS justice opinion ….. and whether he was writing as a private citizen or as a justice really does not matter …..

Amos Moses

Justice David Josiah Brewer (143 U.S. 457-458, 465-471, 36 L ed 226): “This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus … (recited) that ‘it is hoped that by God’s assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered’ …

“The first colonial grant made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584 … and the grant authorizing him to enact statutes for the government of the proposed colony provided ‘that they be not against the true Christian faith’ … The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606 … commenced the grant in these words: ‘… in propagating of Christian Religion to such People as yet live in Darkness …’ Language of similar import may be found in the subsequent charters of that colony … in 1609 and 1611; and the same is true of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant.

“The celebrated compact made by the Pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: ‘Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith … a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia’ … The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-1639, commence with this declaration: ‘… And well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union … there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God … to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess … of the said gospel is now practiced amongst us.’

“In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: ‘… no people can be truly happy, though under the greatest enjoyment of civil liberties, if abridged of … their religious profession and worship …’

“Coming nearer to the present time, the Declaration of Independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions. … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor’ … These declarations … reaffirm that this is a religious nation.”

TheLastHonestLawyer

Here’s what Brewer said in his book, The United States: A Christian Nation:

“But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Nevertheless, we constantly speak of this republic as a Christian Nation-
in fact, as the leading Christian Nation of the world. This popular use of the term certainly has significance. It is not a mere creation of the imagination. It is not a term of derision but has substantial basis—one which justifies its use.”

In other words, we like to call ourselves that, despite there being no basis in law.

Amos Moses

and i said …. it is not a christian nation …. IT IS A NATION OF CHRISTIANS …. not the same thing …..

Amos Moses

Oh …. and you still need to change your screen name ….. you are far from HONEST ………….

Johndoe

Opinion only

Amos Moses

you are right ….. that is your opinion ONLY ….. and really a worthless comment on a forum of OPINION ………….

TheLastHonestLawyer

Except you started this off with a claim that you have yet to back up. To quote your first post in this thread:

“they are as evil or even more so …… they lie to themselves ….. they now expect everyone to believe their lies …… and sue them when they do not ………..”

(mangling of English grammar preserved for accuracy)

I ask you again, when and where have atheists sued to force people to give up their religious beliefs?

Amos Moses

“I ask you again, when and where have atheists sued to force people to give up their religious beliefs?”

and the question was answered ….

“second, no one has to sue to do that, it is being enforced through other means ……. “

TheLastHonestLawyer

So you were lying when you wrote ” they now expect everyone to believe their lies …… and sue them when they do not”?

What are these other means that we dastardly atheists use for force you to stop believing and freely worshiping?

I made a living for twenty years examining evidence and interrogating witnesses in court (also doing endless paperwork and making prosecutors pay for lunch, but that’s not relevant.) You made specific claims, and are now backing off them. In my old field, that’s when I go in for the kill.

Amos Moses

“So you were lying when you wrote” they now expect everyone to believe their lies …… and sue them when they do not”

there have been numerous suings since Obergefell …… it is not that ruling ….. but that excuse to rebel against authority and the religious libetry of others by homosexuals that i was referring to …….. so no ………

TheLastHonestLawyer

Wait, up above you said “second, no one has to sue to do that, it is being enforced through other means” and now you are saying that have been many lawsuits filed? (“Suings” is not a word.)

Make up your mind!

Obergefell v. Hodges wasn’t about religion, it was about the rights of consenting adults to enter into legal marriages, a right protected by the 14th Amendment’s Due Process and Equal Protection clauses. Nothing in that decision affects your rights to practice your faith. Churches cannot be compelled to offer their religious services to anyone they don’ t want to.

Do you understand that your freedom to worship does not extend to compelling others to follow your beliefs? I grew up in a Muslim home. Would you be happy if you lived in an Islamic community and they demanded that you follow their faith?

Amos Moses

“and now you are saying that have been many lawsuits filed?”

Obergefell gave everyone the idea that homomarriage was real …… they are not suing against religion outright ….. BUT THE EFFECT is the same ….. and the outcome is the same ………

“Do you understand that your freedom to worship does not extend to compelling others to follow your beliefs?”

and yet homosexuals DEMAND we follow their ideas ……….

Copyleft

And how exactly does this ‘following’ occur? Respecting their equality under the law? Because that’s demanded of all citizens of the U.S. at all times already.

It makes zero difference whether you, as a private citizen, regard same-sex couples as legitimate or not. All that matters is how the LAW treats them, which affects you not at all.

bastardizing the language and therefore the law damages EVERYONE ….. it is not a marriage ….. that word is being bastardized …. it damages everyone ………. FYI, NO ONE prevented homosexuals from being in a marriage ….. what they wanted was not marriage ….. they wanted depravity and to then force it on everyone else ……..

Copyleft

Oh, so your complaint is that marriage is being recognized outside the bounds of your particular faith? Too bad, that ship sailed a LONG time ago. Marriage in the U.S. is a civil institution, not tied to any particular faith or its doctrines.

Amos Moses

“Oh, so your complaint is that marriage is being recognized outside the bounds of your particular faith?”

that is not what i said …. so strawman ….. flame on ….. WORDS HAVE MEANING ….. marriage has never meant what this bastardization of language is doing ……… it is post-modern garbage that words mean what we think they mean and we can just make it up as we go ……….

TheLastHonestLawyer

So, you want arranged marriages where the feelings of the two 13 year old kids involved are never considered? Because that was traditional marriage for centuries. We changed that.

Interracial marriage was illegal in this nation for almost two hundred years, and the defenders of this status quo used the same arguments you use here to defend it. They lost. We changed it. Do you support banning interracial marriage?

Societies change over time, and that’s a good thing.

Amos Moses

just more strawman argumentation …….. FAIL ………

TheLastHonestLawyer

No, questions that are on point. Marriage has changed drastically over just the last two centuries. This is a fact. Marriage in the United States is a Constitutional right, as stated in Loving v Virginia (1967) and other cases that came after it.

Marriage, in your words, has been “bastardized” over and over since we first came up with the idea of steady relationships. Things always change.

Amos Moses

nope …..

“This is a fact. Marriage in the United States is a Constitutional right”

and which amendment is that …. right …. not there …. you are less than honest ……. there is no federal control of marriage ……… more lies on your part ……….

TheLastHonestLawyer

That would be both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

There is some federal control of marriage, but that’s to the case here. The Constitution makes it clear that “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws”

Plain English, a law cannot deny equal rights to anyone. And if you want to stop gay marriage, you need to contest every single one at court. Even then, the legal standard does not include “God doesn’t like it” because that would violate the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause.

Amos Moses

nothing there about marriage ………. WRONG ….. FAIL ……. it is a STATES issue ……. nothing in the federal constitution about marriage …………. FAIL …………

TheLastHonestLawyer

Funny, but the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you. And has, through several courts and marriages cases, consistently used the 14th Amendment to expand marriage rights.

True, there is nothing in the Constitution about marriage. But the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and no state law in violation of the Constitution can stand. Which is where we get into precedent and the like.

For fifty years the standard has been that marriage is an explicit right, protected by the 14th Amendment. Scream all you like, but these are facts. Obergefell v. Hodges was just the latest in a line of such rulings.

The 14th Amendment is an amazing piece of work, as it protects all Americans from a broad range of abuses by the state.

Amos Moses

“Funny, but the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you.”

the SCOTUS AFFIRMED slavery SEVERAL TIMES …… SO WHAT …………….

TheLastHonestLawyer

Yes they did. Because when they were ruling on those cases. slavery was still legal in several states. After the Civil War, the US ratified the 13th Amendment, which ended slavery in this nation and rendered all those previous rulings moot.

But here’s the thing. At the opening of the Civil War popular sentiment against slavery was rising rapidly, leading Southern leaders to worry that it would be outlawed; maintaining that “peculiar institution” was one of the main causes of the war.

Today, it’s reversed. Majorities support the concept of marriage equality. Mainly because most people don’t feel the need to dictate how others live.

Amos Moses

“After the Civil War, the US ratified the 13th Amendment”

YEP …. but there is STILL NO RATIFICATION of homomarriage …….. so FAIL ….. and SCOTUS is frequently WRONG ….. and they are about homomarriage being a marriage ….. you can believe whatever lie you want …… it will never be the truth …………

TheLastHonestLawyer

Constitutional Amendments need to be ratified. Supreme Court decisions based on the Constitution do not.

Marriages between consenting adults of the same gender are now legal and protected by the same document that protects your faith.

I deal in facts. You don’t have to like the decision, or approve of gay marriages, but the fact is they are now legal in the United States.

Amos Moses

“Supreme Court decisions based on the Constitution do not.”

and homomarriage WAS NOT based on the constitution ….. it was not even based on SCOTUS own precedents ……… FAIL …………

TheLastHonestLawyer

sigh.

Obergefell v. Hodges used the 14th Amendment as the basis for their decision. It’s right there in the majority opinion.

No precedents? Here’s what was cited in the decision:

Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965)

Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)

Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374 (1978)

Turner v. Safley, 482 U.S. 78 (1987)

All 14th Amendment cases, and the latter three directly on the topic of the right to marry.

Dude, you are wrong. Give it up. You can read the opinions yourself. Obergefell was based on a solid reading of both the Constitution and previous court decisions.

Amos Moses

“Obergefell v. Hodges used the 14th Amendment as the basis ”

no it was not and ALL of the dissenting judges said so ………..

TheLastHonestLawyer

There’s a reason why we have nine justices. The majority opinion rules. Dissents are fine for later research, but are not the ruling opinion.

Donald Trump won more Electoral College votes than Hilary Clinton. Would it make sense for me to say that Hilary Clinton is the President because she got some EC votes? Of course not. The same goes for the Supreme Court. Even a 5-4 ruling is the final word on that case.

Amos Moses

“The majority opinion rules”

and the truth IS NOT DETERMINED BY A MAJORITY …… and it is still a lie …………

Ambulance Chaser

No but the law is. And the law is that same sex marriage is legal throughout the United States.

Amos Moses

but this is a christian forum …. and the ISSUE IS THE TRUTH ………

ShemSilber

Same-sex “marriage” may be on the human law books, but not on Almighty Yahuwah’s, and the time is rapidly approaching when these Dark Ages will be over and all those stupid, colorable laws will be tossed on the burn heap and gone forever.

HalleluYAH and omein, in the Name of the Master Yahushua (Lord Jesus, but not the effeminate wimp that many people imagine).

Ambulance Chaser

Well “human law books” are all I’m concerned with.

ShemSilber

I knew that already, but I also know that will change. May the Master Yahushua improve your nearsightedness for you, for He has pleasure in improving our vision and giving us hope beyond the grave, as you will see.

Ambulance Chaser

I wish I had a dollar for every time I said your third paragraph to someone on this site.

I’ll ask again: how does the marriage of two people impact you. Two guys you will never meet get married. Where is the harm to you or your faith?

What the LGBT community wanted was equal rights, and they won that battle. Your religious freedom does not extend to forcing your religious views on others.

Nothing is being forced on you. You are not forced to attend same-sex weddings, not forced to take part in the lives of anyone you dislike, not forced to like it. But you are forced to accept that equality means equality for all.

Amos Moses

“how does the marriage of two people impact you. ”

ASKED AND ANSWERED ………..

“What the LGBT community wanted was equal rights”

no …. they had equal rights …. they wanted superior rights …….

TheLastHonestLawyer

No, you have not answered. In fact, you’ve gone through some contortions to avoid answering, and I’ll tell you why:

Gay marriage doesn’t affect you in the least. It makes no impact on your life, except for what you allow it to do. 2 men getting married does not deny you your right to worship as you please, attend the church or your choice, and live a religious life if you so choose.

You are the one letting the reality of marriage equality control your life. Because you cannot handle the concept that people can life happy, full lives without your particular faith.

But I’ll bite. What rights did the advocates of same sex marriage want that all other Americans lack. Be specific. Let’s see if you can answer a question for once.

Amos Moses

“No, you have not answered. ”

you are an interloper in this conversation ….. if you are not going to follow what has been said in the thread …. take a hike ……..

TheLastHonestLawyer

No, I will not “take a hike.” If you can’t handle the questions, I suggest it is you who should bow out and admit defeat.

You can’t even answer when asked what special rights were being asked for in the fight for same-sex marriage equality. Because you know that’s a lie. There were no “special rights” just equality for consenting adults in terms of civil marriage laws. That’s it.

It’s pretty amazing how ill-equipped you are to support your own arguments.

I have to go run some errands. Let’s see if you can muster some of those special rights – with sources – that you claim were being asked for.

Amos Moses

take a hike mike …………

Amos Moses

“What rights did the advocates of same sex marriage want that all other Americans lack.”

the right to use that right against christians …… the right to sue for your hurt “feeling” …… the right to have your lies accepted and to beat others over the head with those same lies …..

TheLastHonestLawyer

And we’re back to asking – yet again – for any evidence that the simple fact of legal same sex marriage hurts you in any way.

You are now lying. No one is getting sued over hurt feelings, this was a 14th Amendment case that the courts up and down the federal system ruled on.

Amos Moses

“And we’re back to asking – yet again – for any evidence that the simple fact of legal same sex marriage hurts you in any way.”

that you do not accept the truth ….. DOES NOT ALTER THE TRUTH ……..

Amos Moses

FYI …. the truth does not have to be proven …. it is either accepted or rejected ….. you reject truth …… sad for you ………..

Copyleft

“the truth does not have to be proven”

Actually, it does. That’s what makes it truth–the fact that you can prove it.

Your problem seems to be that you feel some ‘ownership’ of the concept of marriage… which you do not, in fact, have. Marriage is defined by the law, not by your church.

Amos Moses

“Actually, it does.’

Actually, it does not ….. truth is the measure of reality just like a ruler is the measure of an inch …. you can dispute if it is an inch if you want ….. but an inch is an inch ….. it does not change ….. whether you accept it or not …..

“you feel some ‘ownership'”

nope ….. God does ….. and we have no authority to change it ….. we accept it or reject it …. you reject it …….

TheLastHonestLawyer

Then God can file a brief with the court.

I have really bad news for you: the United States is not a theocracy, and since the very beginning of the nation we have recognized secular marriages.

Amos Moses

No … you will be in HIS court soon enough … and it will be sad when your mouth is agape …. and NOTHING comes out because you have no answer …………

TheLastHonestLawyer

And we’re back to the usual “Wait until Daddy hears about this!” threat. Which really mean nothing to an atheist.

I really feel sorry for you. You are so bound up in hate and fear over things that you could easily ignore. Fear defines your life.

Amos Moses

and so you REJECT TRUTH ……….. and if you reject it then WHY ARE YOU HERE ……. if you are not here to hear the truth …. then you are here to call the truth hate …. BECAUSE YOU HATE THE TRUTH ………..

TheLastHonestLawyer

I enjoy a good debate. That’s why I’m here, and Christian News is very tolerant of people so long as they follow the rules.

Which you are not doing. Personal attacks, all caps . . you should look at yourself.

Amos Moses

no … you are here to call truth hate ….. you do not debate …. you call christians names …. you lie …. and it is their house that their rules ….. they can eliminate me at anytime … i care not …….. NOT ONE BIT ………… and your biggest lie in this post is that of PERSONAL ATTACKS …… nice try, nice lie ……….

TheLastHonestLawyer

I’m calling you out. What names have I used to denigrate Christians. Be specific.

Amos Moses

i will retract the name calling ………. i have several conversations going on and you keep jumping in and out of them as an interloper … Mea Culpa ………

Copyleft

Your use of ‘interloper’ seems confused as well. This is a public discussion forum, so ANYONE can respond to ANY comment.

Amos Moses

right …. but i was carrying on a conversation with another and you jumped in ….. it makes keeping it straight sometimes difficult …… as to who said what ……..

Copyleft

As noted before, if you can’t prove it with evidence, it’s not truth. Funny how you’ve avoided trying to come up with any, isn’t it?

Amos Moses

no …. the “evidence” is proven true with the truth ….. you reject truth ….. so it matters not what “evidence” is presented to you …. you will not recognize the truth in any event …… i prefer not to waste such time on such ridiculous claims …. we are not going to agree on what the evidence means …. your worldview keeps the truth of the evidence from you ……

Copyleft

A nice combination of threats and wishful thinking. That’s how you can tell you’ve got a Bible-beater on the run.

Amos Moses

no …. you seem to think that a worldly court is the only court ….. it is not …… again …. you reject truth …. and when you are confronted with the truth of another court …… thats when you are the runner ………… oh …. and you change the topic of conversation as an interloper …. so really running from the points you made here previously ……..

Copyleft

Fortunately, your notion of a “‘god” has no authority in U.S. law, which is explicitly secular. Let me spell it out for you: your religious ideas–what you consider “God’s Word”–has NO POWER over anyone but you.

Amos Moses

“Fortunately, your notion of a “‘god” has no authority in U.S. law”

talk about wishful thinking ….. and running from the points you made earlier …………. and you have NO EVIDENCE that it “is explicitly secular” ………. history does not bear that witness ………

Amos Moses

“and they won that battle.”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ….. have to laugh at that …… not sure what you think they won …. the right to be the biggest bully ….. the right to change the definitions of words and bastardize the language …… the right to use the law as a cudgel against christians and the 1st amendment ….. not much of a win ….. to get others to accept the lie that homomarriage is a marriage ….. it aint …..

TheLastHonestLawyer

Under the law, it is. What your religion says may be an entirely different matter.

As I said elsewhere, I grew up a Muslim with immigrant parents. There are extended family members back in Jordan who probably would not accept my 26 year marriage as real for any number of reasons. Too bad for them, I don’t care.

You need to come down to reality. In the United States, *civil* marriages are legal for all consenting adults, regardless of gender.

What the LGBT community won in that fight was that fundamental human right. Nothing more. Sorry if other people living their lives in peace destroys your ability to function, but there it is.

Amos Moses

“Under the law, it is.”

under the law …. SLAVERY WAS LEGAL …….. and it was STILL WRONG …… and homomarriage is no different …………

TheLastHonestLawyer

Alright, let’s deal with your latest fixation.

Slavery was legal in most of the states at the time of the Constitution’s ratification in 1789. However, a strong movement to abolish slavery was growing. This battle defined American politics for the first 70 years of our nation’s history, culminating in the Civil War.

Along the way, the Supreme Court heard several cases regarding slavery. As they are required to do, they ruled according to their understanding of the Constitution and precedent. The Dred Scott decision was horrifically racist but completely correct when you look at the laws in effect at the time. Unilaterally freeing a slave violated the owner’s 5th Amendment rights.

After the Civil War, Congress passed and the states ratified the 13th Amendment, which ended slavery in the United States. All those previous cases were now dust in the wind. Because the Constitution is the highest law in the land.

The states also ratified the 14th Amendment, which contains the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses. As this has been part of the Constitution since 1868, there is a mountain of case studies and rulings showing that rights are universal in this country, and laws that restrict those rights cannot be upheld. This includes state laws on marriage that unlawfully restrict access to marriage by denying due process.

By the way, the Bible says slavery is just fine. Tale Leviticus 25:44-46 or Eph 6:5-8, Col 3:22-24, 1Tim 6:1-2, 1Pet 2:18, and Titus 2:9-10 from the New Testament. All of which say slavery is good. So why are you contradicting the Bible? Isn’t the Bible the Truth?

Amos Moses

“Alright, let’s deal with your latest fixation.”

the “fixation is yours ….. in that you seem to think the SCOTUS is the be all and end all …. and that they are never wrong ….. WHEN IT IS EASILY DISPROVABLE ………

TheLastHonestLawyer

I’ve never said that SCOTUS is always right. Hell, I argued before the Nine Wise Men once and lost. Still think they got it wrong. I think Citizens United was a terrible decision, not because I disagree with the outcome, but because it was a bad reading of the law and went against precedent.

They are, however, in our system of government, the final word on the Constitutionality of a law. That’s a simple fact. What they say goes, and there is no other recourse in the legal system.

Amos Moses

“I’ve never said that SCOTUS is always right.”

but you want to sit here and pontificate as if it is and your only argument is ….. “The SCOTUS said so” ….. AS IF THAT PROVED ANYTHING ………. and it does not ……….. has NOTHING to do with the truth …. that you reject anyway ………

TheLastHonestLawyer

When it comes to questions of law, the Supreme Court is the final word. Congress can try to pass a new law that conforms to the Court’s ruling, but in a case like this, there’s no point.

Your faith is not universal. I have an uncle in Amman who is just a fervent as you are, but he’ll tell you that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad (PBUH) is His only Prophet. He’ll swear that’s the Truth.

Since there’s no evidence to support either of you, it’s not truth, but strong opinion backed by faith.

We’re discussing laws.

Amos Moses

“When it comes to questions of law, the Supreme Court is the final word.”

they have no authority to change GODS law ….. but they think they do ………. and they are still wrong ………. homomarriage is not marriage …….

TheLastHonestLawyer

As I said, this case was entirely about civil marriage in the United States.

My old religion said that God allowed me to have up to four wives. The laws of my state say one. Guess which one I follow?

Amos Moses

no …. Obergefell was entirely about rebellion to God …….. and the destruction of the good order of society …..

TheLastHonestLawyer

And yet here we are and society is still going, gays are married, and the vast majority doesn’t care.

And I’m done with you. You are not rational.

Amos Moses

“gays are married, and the vast majority doesn’t care.”

and there is why the destruction of good order of society has been accomplished …… and thank you for pointing it out and making my point …… they have rejected truth ……… and that is not rational ….. that is destructive ……….. see ya … would not want to be ya ……

ShemSilber

Brother Amos Moses is quite rational, and so is anyone else who stands up for adherence to the Torah of the Master Yahushua (Lord Jesus), the mighty King and Messiah who is coming soon in POWER to turn this world upside-RIGHT and shake out all the loose nuts (like lawyers and psychiatrists, and a lot of preachers, and so forth) and to make this world permanently in peace and productivity.

There now, you’ve found another “irrational” blogger.

Isaiah 45:23 to you, for Yahuwah has sworn and will not relent that every knee will bend and every tongue swear to Him, in the Name of the Master Yahushua, omein!

TheLastHonestLawyer

59:23 He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

At least that was what I believed when I was a kid. You can throw Bible quotes all you like, it doesn’t change the legal facts that marriage between members of the same sex is legal in the United States.

As for your prediction that the end is nigh, Might I point out that people have been saying this since about 93CE when Saint Clement I ran around assuring everyone that Jesus was going to be back before dinner! Really! Any second now!

Didn’t happen. And since then, there have been *thousands* of equally failed claims of Jesus’ return, despite the Bible condemning this sort of thing and clearly stating that the hour and day would not be known.

But I have a question for you, and I hope you are better at answering questions than Mr. Moses was. What if Islam is the true faith, and Mohammad (PBUH) really is God’s final Prophet? Are you prepared to face your judgement if you’re wrong?

Have you ever in your life critically examined you faith? I’m not saying discard it, but really think about it.

ShemSilber

It seems to me that both you and Ambulance Chaser are rational, but in need of more accurate paradigms. That puts you on a par with a good deal of the human race.

Yes, indeed, I have considered, and there is no Mighty One but Yahuwah of Avraham, Yitzchak, & Yaakov, and He has a Son whom He sent first to create this world and then to put man on it, and Yahuwah even prepared His Son to be the Redeemer whom we would need before the foundation of the world.

The Master Yahushua’s body that He came in was an original, in human form, but not descended from Adam. He was Adam’s Creator, but not Adam’s descendant. In Hebrews 10, Paul quotes from Psalm 40, saying that Yahuwah did not require sacrifices and offerings, “but a body have You prepared for Me.” That body was planted in the virgin Miryam’s womb whole, not using her ovum. No wonder Yoseph wanted to put her away, but Yahuwah sent a messenger in a dream to tell him he should remain espoused to her, and they would consummate the marriage after the Master’s birth into this age. (It is likely that Miryam was not his only wife, but that they were practicing patriarchal marriage, where the man could be the husband of plural wives. Because of the deception of ha-satan the churches have dropped this and considered it evil.)

Yes, people have been predicting the end of the age for all that time, but the Master said to leave it in our Abba’s hand. There may be another 50 to 100 years, or more, but for each person the end of the age comes at the death of this mortal body. But that’s not the end. As the Scripture says, “As in Adam all die (because of his sin, which passes to us), even so in Messiah (because of His sinlessness, and because He rose from the tomb after He offered Himself as the sacrifice for our sins) shall all be raised from the dead.”

When believers are raised from the dead, they will have ageless bodies, as the Master has, per Psalm 17:15 and 1John 3:1-3. These will never die or suffer any pains forever, but will be working with the Master in the continued eternal expansion of the Kingdom of Yahuwah.

And no, Allah is not the one who created, but he was created along with the other myriads of angels, and he was a leader of the rebellion among the malachim (angels) who rebelled against the Creator. He is the same one called “Semyaza” and “Azazel” in the Sefer Chanoch (Scroll of Enoch), the man who fathered Metushelach and then spent the next 300 years learning from the Master Yahushua and the other spirit beings in the heavens, and was taken up into the heavens to rule over other malachim there. Allah is also the same one whom most people know as the devil, the god of this age, the prince of the power of the air, always eager to go against the will of Yahuwah, but only able to work as much evil as Yahuwah allows, to test us concerning how true we will be to Him. The Master Yahushua works with us to qualify us for Kingdom citizenship, otherwise we would never measure up. As Psalm 100 says, it is He, the Master Yahushua, who makes us, and not we ourselves.

The schedule that Yahuwah has set is one week, seven days, of millennia. We are close to the end of the sixth millennium, but how close I cannot tell. All I know for sure is that it will always be too soon for scoffers of the Master Yahushua, but never soon enough for the believers looking for His return.

In Isaiah 27:13 the Scripture speaks of those Muslim of the end times, that some of them would hear the sound of the shofar, would come to understand the message and accept the Master Yahushua and His offer of eternal citizenship in His Kingdom. They were “ready to perish,” it says, in Egypt and Assyria, Islamic territory, but they will be saved when they believe the message, even as Abraham our father believed, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

May you also be among the redeemed, for the Master has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that we should all turn from our own ways and into His Way, says the Master Yahushua, Son of Yahuwah, to us, omein.

TheLastHonestLawyer

OK, how does two men entering into a civil marriage, with no church ceremonials or religious aspects at all, negatively impact your religious liberty?

Amos Moses

false paradigm …… and a false equivalency ……. it is not a marriage ….. what they do is bastardize the language …. it turns the language into a lie ….. and they expect the rest of us to swallow their lie …… lies HARM EVERYONE …..

Johndoe

Opinions vary

Amos Moses

yours never does ………

TheLastHonestLawyer

Once again, the Constitution of the United States was written specifically to deny people like you power. We are a secular nation.

I’m still waiting for you to come up with the “original Constitution” that you claimed made us a Christian nation. Have a source for that yet?

Amos Moses

“We are a secular nation.”

lies …….. and so is your screen name …….

TheLastHonestLawyer

The Constitution mentions religion in two places. In Article VI, on oaths, it states: “but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

Then in the 1st Amendment, Congress is enjoined against any law that would create an establishment of religion. The only religious mention is in in the Signatories, where the printer uses the formal form of dating “in the year of our Lord”, Which has zero effect on law.

Many of the people who served in the Continental Congress that drafted and signed the Constitution were serving in the Senate when the Treaty of Tripoli was signed by President John Adams and ratified unanimously by the Senate. Article 11 of that treaty says:

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext rising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

The United States is a secular nation where the majority of citizens happen to be Christian. In the Federalist No. 10, James Madison argued in favor of a secular government as a protector of the rights of Americans to practice their various faiths freely.

There, I’ve presented my evidence, and I have more if you like, you can show me where the Founders created a Christian nation in laws.

Oh, Matthew 7:1 is where Jesus tells you not to judge others. You have no clue about my legal career. Do you often make baseless accusations? Is that exhibiting Christ-like behavior?

Also, just a style note. An ellipses is three periods separated by spaces, not a line of periods. It’s used to indicate a thought trailing off. I think you wanted a comma there.

Amos Moses

“Then in the 1st Amendment, Congress is enjoined against any law that would create an establishment of religion. ”

“TheLastHonestLawyer ”

and quoting HALF of the first amendment is why you should change your screen name ….. YOU ARE NOT HONEST ……. “Congress is enjoined against any law that would create an establishment of religion.” ….. OR PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF …………

you are much less than HONEST ………….

TheLastHonestLawyer

That wasn’t the point. We were discussing the concept of the nation being established as a secular state. The Free Exercise clause applies to all religions, as well as the right to exercise no religion at all. The 1A protects Muslims, Hindus, traditional Native American faiths, and even me, who writes Orthodox Baseball when asked for my religion.

Your personal attacks are growing tiresome.

Amos Moses

“We were discussing the concept of the nation being established as a secular state.”

it was NEVER established as such ……… where is your evidence ……

Ambulance Chaser

“OR PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF …………”

What does that have to do with whether the US is a secular nation or not? Do you think secular nations all forbid their citizens from practicing religion?

Amos Moses

strawman again …..

Ambulance Chaser

I really have my doubts that you know what a “strawman” is.

Chet

Judgment calls are made everyday by everybody, including you, Sir. One cannot judge an adulterer when one is an adulterer himself and Christians are to come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord which is ascertained via valuation/judging. Liberals are always trying to misapply Christ’s very teaching on this matter along with others of utmost prominence, i.e., abortion/killing of unwanted and unoved little ones and homosexuality. Further, judging is accomplished via courtrooms everywhere and you, as an Honest Lawyer, should know such. You won’t confound anyone with your charge of judging who knows what he believes and why he believes it IAW the Word of God, the Holy Bible…

Grace Kim Kwon

The Constitution protects religious people. Do your own homework. White Christian English men created nations to spread Christianity, and the USA is only one of those. Americans lost their wits by putting the colored people and sexually depraved people in the same category in ranting equality. Sin has no equality because it is a slavery. You need the Holy Bible for the truth, salvation, and freedom. Read John chapter 3 to know how to get saved.

TheLastHonestLawyer

Do you ever tire of being wrong. Nations existed long before Christianity, and they generally exist to support mutual defense and trade more than anything else.

Nowhere in the founding documents of the United States is the goal of the nation stated to be spreading Christianity. I’ve asked you before to provide a citation to what documents you believe carries this declaration, but you never come through, So I’m asking you again.

Grace Kim Kwon

Read the documents of colony-starters and of independence and the monuments and the original constitution and anthems and the pledge and coins and letters. USA is a child of Europe. Look at the European flags and hear their anthems. America has been a Christian nation created to raise godly children. Bible-illiterate Westerners cannot comprehend their ancestors’ writings. Christians create nations but atheists only destroy them. The Russians bounced back to Christianity after the decades of the atheistic terror; Americans are not smarter than the Russians. None of us are.

TheLastHonestLawyer

When discussing the laws of the United States the documents surrounding the formation of colonies means nothing. Plymouth was founded 156 years before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. That’s equal to the time between the US Civil War and today.

The United States has operated under two documents stating how the government was to be run: The Articles of Confederation between 1781 and 1789, and the Constitution of the United States of America from 1789 on up to the present day.

Neither of these documents contains any language stating that the nation was founded to promote Christianity.

You keep using the phrase “the original constitution” and never define what you are talking about. Please identify this document, who wrote it, when it was ratified, and what it governed.

European flags and anthems? Anthems weren’t even that big a thing until the mid-19th century, and what about the flags?

Grace Kim Kwon

Americans copied the British. If the British is not understood, America can never be understood. Mayflower Compact and the first colonial constitution and the declaration of independence and such all declare the glory of God and submission to God alone and ask God for help. White people lived for spreading of the Christian religion until last century, but something really bad kept happening since the 1980’s and things changed in the West. Easy life is a woe in Sodom. Maybe too many drinking parties took the toll, after all. Today’s unbelieving Westerners seem to be some different species from their forefathers. Why do you guys hate Christianity so much this century, the only sane conscience and good education all your ancestors had?

TheLastHonestLawyer

Do you understand that the Plymouth Colony ceased to exist in 1691? The Mayflower Compact in no way was part of the decision making process that led to the formation of the United States.

You have a bizarrely simplistic world view. To state that huge group of people acted for one goal only is ridiculous. America was settled to make money, for the most part. The successful colonies were Crown Charters and engaged in trade.

I’m of Jordanian/Lebanese decent, and grew up a Muslim. We had medicine universities when white Europeans were still blaming illnesses on spirits. So leave me out of your mass assumptions.

Grace Kim Kwon

You have no understanding on America or Europe. No man lives for money and prospers. Greedy merchants create only a Third World, nothing like Europe or America. Study history properly. Unless you read the Holy Bible, you’d never discover the truth or understand the Western civilization’s true strength.

You’ve been falsely educated by the immoral white liberals of modern days. (The whites are not really smart unless they are Christian.) Don’t listen to them and don’t be deceived. Sodomic Western whites bash their own ancestors falsely because they hate Christianity. They are a shame to all their normal noble forefathers. Modern nudist Western Sodomites can’t stand the fact that their own ancestors and forefathers were intelligent hard-working Christian.

What happened to your medicine universities afterwards? Yesteryears’ Orientals went to Europe or America alone to study medicine. Everything is so Greek and German or English. We colored should be all thankful to the whites because the white Christians invented everything useful for mankind, bringing the Word of God, modern medicine therefore longevity, universal literacy, human rights, freedom, equality, the rule of the law, civility, and democracy. These concepts are possible only in the Christendom.

TheLastHonestLawyer

Oh, dear. You seem to have never studied history in the least. European history is marked by constant greed and the greedy winning. The idea that somehow European civilization was some religious engine of united conversion efforts is lunacy.

Your massive inferiority complex is your problem, don’t project it on me. I’m proud of what my ancestors did and accomplished. What happened to our universities and works? European colonialism. Our nations were invaded and conquered by greedy men looking for land to expand their titles and fortunes. Colonies were carved without any respect for the people who had been living there for centuries. Our cultures were suppressed whenever possible. My ancestral homelands had been part of the Ottoman Empire since the 15th century, and thrived. Once the British and French carved it up at the end of WWI, we had little but poverty and war.

Christians invented everything? Take off you blinders. Around the year 1000, the celebrated doctor Al Zahrawi published a 1,500 page illustrated encyclopedia of surgery that was used in Europe as a medical reference for the next 500 years. Among his many inventions, Zahrawi discovered the use of dissolving cat gut to stitch wounds — beforehand a second surgery had to be performed to remove sutures. he also reportedly created the first pair of forceps.

Muslims also invented the concept of a modern hospital, the toothbrush, optics (centuries before the Europeans) and had cities with functioning sewer systems that were hundreds of years old when your precious Europeans were still throwing jars of human waste into the streets.

Oh, we also invented accurate clocks in the 9th century. 400 years before Christians.

Need more? The Chinese invented gunpowder. Under Genghis Khan, the Mongolian empire invented paper money, a postal system with paid postage, discovered how to use coal for heating, and had a professional army with ties to the nation, not to a individual lord.

It was Bible-believing Europeans who ran the African slave trade, bringing an estimated 10.7 *million* people kidnapped from Western Africa to the American colonies. And it was White, Christian, America that had to fight a horrific Civil War to end the practice.

I’ll admit facts when you bother posting one.

Grace Kim Kwon

1) You are wrong. Every human is greedy if the Europeans were greedy. What civilization wasn’t greedy? Others had illiteracy and stupidity on top of the greed.

2) I’m sorry for what happened to your civilization. Non-West was illiterate barbaric and oppressed women for-ever; I think God punished the Non-West using the West as He punished Canaan using Israel. God showed mercy to us because it is AD era. Every civilization eventually pays for its own evil doings. Read the Word of God such as the Book of Isaiah in the Old Testament Bible and Romans in the New Testament Bible.

3) Yeh, all civilizations had some smart stuff, but the Christian West alone had the exclusive quest after the objective truth and absolute fairness as a doctrine in accordance with the Biblical principles. All others never stopped treating human life as dirt including yours and mine. It’s the Christian missionaries who brought the life-rescuing God’s truth, unconditional charity, medicine for all, education for everyone, and freedom to live out the truth. Be thankful to the Christian West.

4) Slavery has been a normal practice for all mankind everywhere on the entire Planet. It is the Christian European and Christian American whites alone who abolished slavery formally for everyone on earth without being ordered by anyone else. They did it by themselves; that sets them apart from all Non-West. Today, the colored still practice the slavery of each other, and the Ex-christian perv Westerners only fund it.

5) You are a typical of the indoctrinated of the liberal whites. Stop being their mental slave. They are typical spoiled rotten kids from a rich family and shameless parent-bashers. Get real literacy by reading the Holy Bible. If you don’t read the Holy Bible, you will be always a slave to something bad including the Western pervs.

TheLastHonestLawyer

1. Actually, I’m right. Economics has been the driving force behind cultural expansion since we first started trading goat hides for apples several thousand years ago.

2.; The oldest writing systems in the west came from Sumeria and Egypt. Both created by people with brown skin. The modern concept of an alphabet was first developed by the Phoenicians, another brown-skinned people living in the Eastern Mediterranean around 1000BCE.

3. “Absolute fairness”? Shall we get back to the Crusades? Slavery? Torture? The Christian west was seen as barbarians by the Byzantines, who had a much stronger society. Oh, and while the Christian west was flailing about in it’s own muck and slaughtering entire towns for not worshiping God in the approved way, the Islamic world was building baths, hospitals, and universities.

4. Sorry, but wrong. Slavery in America ended only after four years of brutal civil war. Ratification of the 13th Amendment was required of the former Confederate States. The Qin Dynasty abolished slavery in China in the 3rd century BCE, which was reinforced by the Xin Dynasty 200 years later. Japan abolished slavery except as a punishment for convicted criminals in 1590. There’s more, but you won’t read this far.

5. Stop making assumptions.

Grace Kim Kwon

1) No, that’s wrong. Western libs’ lies. China listened to their ranting of over-population lies and now the nations are in shortage of women.
2) Every tribe had a language. Christian whites alone brought universal literacy. World’s peasants never had anything necessary to read by everyone until the Christian whites insisted everyone’s Bible-reading.
3) Christian whites alone brought human rights and freedom and equality to all, on their own efforts, and brought modern life to everyone. Other religions including Islam always locked women and minorities and invalids in illitracy and darkness. They are similar in conducts.
4) Ya, the British and American Christians alone abolished slavery. All others continued slavery. To this day.
5) You sound typical of liberal whites. Nothing new.

Grace Kim Kwon

Here is the foundation of the Western Civilization’s freedom therefore today’s world’s. You didn’t learn this because you only had godless whites as your teachers.

Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. …Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (John chapter 8)

TheLastHonestLawyer

I grew up in one of the most conservative Christian counties in California. Stop making assumptions.

Grace Kim Kwon

Ya, I thought so. You talk typical of the Western perv-supporting liberal white or his mental slave. Western whites need the Holy Bible for free thinking this century. I feel sorry for their forefathers.

Grace Kim Kwon

Listen to the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father(God) except through Me.” (The Gospel of John, chapter 14) Read the Holy Bible to find who Jesus is and discover how to get saved. Start with the Gospel of John.

TheLastHonestLawyer

Sorry, I’m an atheist, and having escaped one insane religion, have no interest in another.

Grace Kim Kwon

It’s a trend, isn’t it? Communist atheists massacre the believers in God and the unborn children who deem useless to them. Western atheists are hopelessly blasphemous and immoral and living like animals, sleeping around with anyone, and massacre the unborn children because of laziness and boredom. I don’t get it why any people would get attracted to atheism; it’s like giving up living a decent life on earth altogether. You must repent of your unbelief and godlessness.

TheLastHonestLawyer

All you have is insults. I’ve been faithfully married for 26 years, have no tattoos, and support liberty so long as no one else’s rights are infringed.

There have been plenty of monsters who swore they were Christians, and plenty of atheists who are decent, ethical people who live productive lives.

Grace Kim Kwon

There are no decent atheists on Planet Earth. They all blaspheme, kill the unborns, and persecute the Christians. Western ones force homosexuality. No exception is observed. Christians alone are moral and civilized and teach others to be decent. All other sections of mankind have too many illiterate people within each group.

TheLastHonestLawyer

OK, there is obviously no point in continuing any sort of discussion with you. You are not acting rationally, refuse to acknowledge facts, and are, in defiance of Matthew 7:1, extremely judgmental.

Grace Kim Kwon

Read the entire chapter 7. Jesus told people to judge with righteous judgment.

Grace Kim Kwon

Read the Word of God:

1 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the Lord?
5 There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor,
But the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people,
Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

(Psalm 14)

TheLastHonestLawyer

Why do you assume that I haven’t read the Bible?

Grace Kim Kwon

You are not serious. Only serious people actually read the Holy Bible.

TheLastHonestLawyer

I’m quite serious, and have read the Bible in depth and cover to cover. I’ve also read many other holy texts from different faiths, as I find them fascinating.

Wrong grace. The constitution is for everyone. Not just those who believe in supernatural beings

Grace Kim Kwon

Sodomic USA enslaves people with homosexuality and kills the children in wombs.

Michael C

Troops chartered by churches are free to refuse to allow transgender boys join the Scouts. This church is free to discriminate against transgender boys.

If this church is so upset that other troops (not theirs) are permitted to allow transgender boys to participate in Scouting (away from them) that they want to kick the group of young boys out of their church, this is their right.

Grace Kim Kwon

Transgender boys are girls and not boys. Birth gender is the only truth. Stop being bored.

ambiguous genitalia does not make you not a boy or not a girl …… you are still one or the other …… you make a point with no point at all …. FAIL ….

Sisyphus

Nice small minded binary perspective on reality.

Amos Moses

“Consider people born with a single sex chromosome 45X or 45Y as in Turner Syndrome, or 47XXX/47YYY of Klinefelter Syndrome? ”

hmmmm …. trying to apply .01% as somehow indicative of reality ….. sounds so broadminded the brain has fallen out of the skull ……. trying to make a microminority “reality” ….. thats not reality at all ….. it is stupid ………

Sisyphus

This is not the only topic in which you’ve exhibited your microscopic mind, just the latest example. Your figure of .01% is also off by several ​orders of magnitude. Somewhat ironic, we both serve the same God, but if my view differs from yours I’m the one that is wrong. It must be a heavy burden to command such vast wisdom.

Amos Moses

“This is not the only topic in which you’ve exhibited your microscopic mind,”

ad hominem ….. no refutation ….. and you own the MICRO ……

“Somewhat ironic, we both serve the same God, but if my view differs from yours I’m the one that is wrong.”

no … we do not …..

“It must be a heavy burden to command such vast wisdom.”

my bible is pretty light …… but absolutely FULL of all kinds of wisdom …… and if you served the same God you would know it ……….

Amos Moses

“Your figure of .01% is also off by several ​orders of magnitude. Somewhat ironic, we both serve the same God,”

ambiguous genetalia is not an excuse before God to disregard sin ….. Adam tried that in the garden to evade his deeds ……. did not work then and it has not changed ……. so FAIL ……. and again …. OBVIOUSLY we do not serve the same God …..

Sisyphus

Wow, you claim to have determined my relationship with God in a total of three posts. You seem to be quite impressed with your abilities of perception. Serious question, other than come to this relatively esoteric Web site and spew your derision and vitriol, what are you actually doing in service to Jesus? (E.g. bring comfort to the afflicted)

Amos Moses

“Wow, you claim to have determined my relationship with God in a total of three posts.”

easy to spot a fake ….. when you see a real one and a real one ….. and then a fake pops up …… sticks out like a sore thumb ……. FYI ….. i did not say i knew what your relationship with your god is …… just that it is not the same one i serve ……… BIG DIFFERENCE ………

Sisyphus

That would be a good means to get out of jury duty, “I can tell if someone is guilty just by looking at him!”

Amos Moses

i have never seen you …. so FAIL and a strawman ……. burn baby burn …… most of your words have been decidedly unchristian …..

examples … calling a person stupid or a fool ….. “This is not the only topic in which you’ve exhibited your microscopic mind,” …… Mat 5:22 ….. “Nice small minded binary perspective on reality.” ….. Mat 19 ….. guess Christ is “small minded’ and “binary” …….. so my assessment stands …. not christian …. or a different Christ …… and/or not a scriptural Christ ……

Sisyphus

Well, I certainly apologize for insensitive remarks, obviously any sense of snark being attempted was inappropriate.

Amos Moses

snark is fine …… calling a person a fool …. in christianity ….. is a sin …. the sin of murder ….. saying that Christ created something other than a “binary” creation ….. is calling Christ a liar ….. not a good place to be standing ……… and that because a person “perceives” they were created that way and so it is Gods fault ….. again …. Adam said the same thing in the garden ….. 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat …. Adam tried to blame God for the woman God made for Adam ….. did not work then ….. holds no water before God to this day ……… DNA is not an excuse ….. not that i buy the whole “transwhatever because of DNA” argument …….

Sisyphus

I’ve tried to be civil, and honestly could not care less about your assessment or sermons.

Amos Moses

then take a hike ….. no is forcing you to talk to me ……….

Bob Johnson

Even if your 0.01% figure is correct, the reality is that represents over 3 million Americans.

Amos Moses

the reality is they all believe a lie ………….

Grace Kim Kwon

If Western nations have to work to earn the daily bread, there will be less mental illness in the land. You guys have been having too much to spare in everything on a starving planet for the longest time thanks to your intelligent Christian ancestors. Also, rich nations seek warped pleasures and that’s the typical problem.

Johndoe

Christian ancestors brought disease, death, and slavery.

Grace Kim Kwon

You are wrong. Christians brought God’s truth, charity, longevity, literacy, and a nationhood.

Johndoe

Disease, death, and slavery was what they brought

Johndoe

Agreed

TheLastHonestLawyer

Exactly. The church is under no obligation to support any group it disagrees with. Just as we are under no obligation to support churches.

Copyleft

And are equally free to point out how vile their bigotry is.

InTheChurch

Michael, you are a smooth operator. I like how you threw that discrimination in there. Nice move but you know it’s not true. The article said that church is not moving forward with the organization, not the local boys, because it does not meet biblical standards. The transgender, hetero, questioning and exploring boys will not be meeting at this church anymore. They will need to find another location. Plus, joining the scouts is optional and not a right.

Why does Ms. Clark find it so challenging to use the correct term which is “transgender boys?” The phrase “girls who identify as boys” is used to demonstrate disapproval. Ms. Clark’s approval is neither sought nor required.

By the way, there is a very informative article about trans youth in Saturday’s New York Times written by a Yale School of Medicine research fellow who is also a pediatric psychiatrist associated with Harvard Medical School and a neurobiologist.

TheLastHonestLawyer

It’s common for reactionaries to refuse to use correct terms in order to minimize or degrade the people being discussed. Denying reality is their stock in trade.

Amos Moses

“refuse to use correct terms in order to minimize or degrade the people being discussed.”

refuse to use the correct terms = tell the TRUTH ………… PC is mind control and thought control ……

Amos Moses

appeal to authority ….. but no truth to be found …………

Robert

the boy scout oath always has assumed non christians can do there duty to God with out faith in Jesus.. this is why wels els and clc synod advised its members children never to participated in the boy scouts of America . so now a century or more years later other christian churchs are upset over these other lesser issues and not participating either

InTheChurch

great job church. The churches need to take a stand. The church needs to set a boundary.
Boys Scouts can find a local organization to sponsor them. Where are the atheists, homosexual, non profit and local fraternal groups? They can take them on.

Ginger

Jeremiah 4:22 “For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.” [KJV}
God is showing His disappointment in His people here. The work for “sottish” in the Hebrew means “stupid”[Strongs #5530, Cakal, “to play the fool..”]. He is disappointed in His people because of their foolishness, and stupidity in listening and being deceived. He is saying, if you don’t think that I am going to bring destruction at the seventh trumpet of this earth age, you had better look back at the first Earth Age. Satan rebelled and I destroyed the entire earth age.
God is setting the stage here for what He did to end that first Earth Age. God is reminding us that His people have been foolish, and always listened to men, and their foolish traditions. They prefer not to listen to God’s Word, but the foolish doctrines of men’s traditions. Who do you listen to, man or God? The definition of one that has no knowledge, is stupid. There is only one place to gain the knowledge from God, and that is to study God’s Word.

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