Que Thompson wrote:You're arguments are like saying "do we need cars and airplanes?" No, we don't, but if makes our lives much easier don't they. "put a hand to block the sun...." i'm done.

I'm sorry but my argument is like saying.. Do you need a lifted 4x4 with spiked tires to go grocery shopping with an inch of snow?No.Would it make my life better in the eventuality that I'm stuck in the middle of a snowstorm crossing a forest? Sure.

And yes, put a hand on to block the sun is way more efficient than carrying around a second monitor, cables, mounts and batteries for the few times that you are in direct sunlight with no possibilities to create some shade.

youlikeny wrote:That's the point... Countless cables running around, multiple monitors, mounts, accessories, are just extra tools... You can't beat a naked camera to focus on what's in front of it. Your only worry will be to press record.

And when you press record, the camera shakes. And when you touch the touchscreen, the camera shakes. And when you breath, the camera shakes. And any take longer than a minute your arms begin to shake.

Give me something beefier on balanced shoulder rig any day. I flip one switch to turn everything on. I push one to record. No more complicated, and I change batteries once a day. If NEED to strip down to nothing for some specialized situation, I can do that, too.

youlikeny wrote:And yes, put a hand on to block the sun is way more efficient than carrying around a second monitor, cables, mounts and batteries for the few times that you are in direct sunlight with no possibilities to create some shade.

You're right, and they're wrong. The proof is, you're actually making the movie, rather than worrying over gear and building enormous rigs.

Last edited by John Paines on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

youlikeny wrote:And yes, put a hand on to block the sun is way more efficient than carrying around a second monitor, cables, mounts and batteries for the few times that you are in direct sunlight with no possibilities to create some shade.

I'd love to see BTS footage of you doing that for a walk 'n' talk, or a pan, or really anything other than framing and walking away.

I'm not trying to convince you to shoot my way, just reminding you that it isn't "wrong."

Last edited by joe12south on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

youlikeny wrote:That's the point... Countless cables running around, multiple monitors, mounts, accessories, are just extra tools... You can't beat a naked camera to focus on what's in front of it. Your only worry will be to press record.

And when you press record, the camera shakes. And when you touch the touchscreen, the camera shakes. And when you breath, the camera shakes. And any take longer than a minute your arms begin to shake.

Give me something beefier on balanced shoulder rig any day. I flip one switch to turn everything on. I push one to record. No more complicated, and I change batteries once a day. If NEED to strip down to nothing for some specialized situation, I can do that, too.

Que Thompson wrote:You're arguments are like saying "do we need cars and airplanes?" No, we don't, but if makes our lives much easier don't they. "put a hand to block the sun...." i'm done.

I'm sorry but my argument is like saying.. Do you need a lifted 4x4 with spiked tires to go grocery shopping with an inch of snow?No.Would it make my life better in the eventuality that I'm stuck in the middle of a snowstorm crossing a forest? Sure.

And yes, put a hand on to block the sun is way more efficient than carrying around a second monitor, cables, mounts and batteries for the few times that you are in direct sunlight with no possibilities to create some shade.

How do you see the monitor when you shoot low or high? You guys are saying the most ridiculous things. I live in a place where, if I'm outside, I'm in direct sunlight 300+ days a year. You'd rather buy 8-10 batteries than use an external battery? Ridiculous. Music video shoots go for a minimum of 4-5 hours. You'd have me changing and charging batteries every 30 minutes. Hilarious. Everybody isn't putting the camera on a tripod, setting focus and hitting record. "put a hand to block the sun" is hilarious. and don't you need both hands to hold this thing? How are you gonna block the sun? I guess you don't if it's on a tripod. And if that's the case... Maybe I wouldn't care about "the box".

I would be willing to bet that people who would like the box form factor are more run and gun shooters than talking head, narrative type shooters.

joe12south wrote:1. If you're on sticks, then the body style matters almost not at all.2. You're not executing a steady hand-held move with one hand.

Exactly, that's my point. How many time do you have to do a walk and talk with no gimbal or Steadicam that last longer than 40 minutes? If that's your daily job obviously you need to figure out a rig, but saying that you can't shoot anything without a rigged pocket4K is ridiculous.

Que Thompson wrote:I would be willing to bet that people who would like the box form factor are more run and gun shooters than talking head, narrative type shooters.

Actually, I shoot almost exclusively narrative (a music video every once in awhile) and I rarely use my tripod other than as a place to rest my camera between shots. If you watch current movies, you'll see quite few locked-off shots these days. I personally love the look of well balanced shoulder-mounted shot. The immediacy of handheld, without the nausea.

I don’t think that anybody begrudges gearheads their gear. I just wish that they’d drop the dogmatism.

The reason that I like Néstor Almendros’s book Man with a Camera is his attitude toward filmmaking. It’s pretty hard to read his account of how Éric Rhomer and he shot Pauline à la plage, which they did with a total crew of five, using the trunk of a little Renault as a dolly, without concluding that it’s possible to make films without a mountain of gear. Recently, I saw Michael Winterbottom’s In this World, which he and Marcel Zyskind shot in rural Pakistan with a rudimentary digital camera, and was humbled. Same with watching Frederick Wiseman’s In Jackson Heights, a film of particular interest to me because I live in the area and am working on a film about it.

This isn’t about right and wrong. It’s about personal temperament. I’m attracted to that way of working. Not everybody is.

Cool, there’s room for everyone.

Last edited by robedge on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Que Thompson wrote:How do you see the monitor when you shoot low or high? You guys are saying the most ridiculous things. I live in a place where, if I'm outside, I'm in direct sunlight 300+ days a year. You'd rather buy 8-10 batteries than use an external battery? Ridiculous. Music video shoots go for a minimum of 4-5 hours. You'd have me changing and charging batteries every 30 minutes. Hilarious. Everybody isn't putting the camera on a tripod, setting focus and hitting record. "put a hand to block the sun" is hilarious. and don't you need both hands to hold this thing? How are you gonna block the sun? I guess you don't if it's on a tripod. And if that's the case... Maybe I wouldn't care about "the box".

I would be willing to bet that people who would like the box form factor are more run and gun shooters than talking head, narrative type shooters.

By crouching or looking up? Where do you put your camera that you don't have line of sight with the back of it?So you are always shooting with the sun hitting directly your monitor? And you can't put a simple sunshade on but you need an external monitor or you can't shoot? Seriously?And yes, having a handful of small batteries in your pocket is often way more convenient than a cage, rods, cables, battery mount and a big battery.Music video shoots can go for a week but you don't have 40 minutes long takes where you can't spend 20 seconds to change a battery!

So you are saying that only people using this camera as a shoulder camera need to rig it? Did I get it right?

youlikeny wrote:How many time do you have to do a walk and talk with no gimbal or Steadicam that last longer than 40 minutes? If that's your daily job obviously you need to figure out a rig, but saying that you can't shoot anything without a rigged pocket4K is ridiculous.

I do walk 'n' talks all the time with a shoulder rig, sometimes a dolly. I rarely break out the gimbal other than for super specialty shots because I don't like the mechanical look.

And wait...fiddling with a gimbal every lens change is WAY more distracting than building a good rig once. And now there's something else to keep charged, right? Touch a camera with your hand/sunscreen in the middle of a shot and you've just ruined that shot. Using a gimbal is about as opposite of your "naked" shooting ethos as I can imagine.

youlikeny wrote:How many time do you have to do a walk and talk with no gimbal or Steadicam that last longer than 40 minutes? If that's your daily job obviously you need to figure out a rig, but saying that you can't shoot anything without a rigged pocket4K is ridiculous.

I do walk 'n' talks all the time with a shoulder rig, sometimes a dolly. I rarely break out the gimbal other than for super specialty shots because I don't like the mechanical look.

And wait...fiddling with a gimbal every lens change is WAY more distracting than building a good rig once. And now there's something else to keep charged, right? Touch a camera with your hand/sunscreen in the middle of a shot and you've just ruined that shot. Using a gimbal is about as opposite of your "naked" shooting ethos as I can imagine.

I'm not a big fan either, but it's convenient and an example of something that you don't need anything else other than your camera to use. No cables running around, no cages, rods, shoulder mounts, etc... Obviously we are not talking about using an unrigged camera to do what a shoulder mount does, this is about what you can do with an unrigged camera, and you can do pretty much anything if you want to. (other than carrying it on your shoulder, obviously)

And mine is not an ethos, I'm just practical, and years of shooting taught me how much money is wasted in unnecessary things. It's great going grocery shopping with a Ferrari, but do you need one to do grocery shopping? No. And that's my point.

Boy, talk about dogmatism! Joe, you gotta get rid of all that stuff; the internet has spoken.

I don't see that there's anything wrong with someone coming on the forum and saying, "Hey BM, what do you think about making a cube?" Then they can do it or not. But perhaps that's wrong. Besides, everyone knows that the only way to shoot is handheld with a 16mm Bolex like Nathaniel Dorsky. No batteries needed.

Que Thompson wrote:How do you see the monitor when you shoot low or high?

You get on the floor and look dead at the camera. When I only had an external battery for the pocket 4K that’s what I had to do. It was really cold outside and my neck hurted, but I still got the shot. It’s possible

There are times when I need to shoot somewhat discreetly and quickly. The Pocket works for that. Often in those situations going 45 minutes or so is just fine.There are times when I need a variety of accouterments. The Pocket works for that.

What drove me to buy the Pocket over some of the other options?. I always prefer to record ProRes or BRAW over a GOP based codec. This is likely the one thing that will be locked in for anything Blackmagic makes.I think all of the above is why the Pocket has a good market especially given the price.

Obviously there's a market for the Ursa Mini series as well.I won't be suprised if the Micro grows up into something for the box market.

I think most of you are missing the beauty of it while only thinking about the complaints.

"It needs to be rigged!"

In fact, it dont. You can shoot great stuff right out of the box (of course, with a lens, media and the provided battery). And it so minimal (yet fully operational as is) that you can rig however you like. Thats the beauty of it. HOWEVER YOU LIKE! From unecessary over rigged setups to minimal setups. I can put mine on a gimbal, a Ronin S, easily with no extra accessories, with or without my excelent Tilta cage. And I usually let it on a tripod to take static or handheld shots within seconds. And I can easily rig somethings off to go stealth mode. I dont like its non simetrical design, sure. But really you guys are focusing on the problems instead on the solutions, which are easy and nice.

With the Pocket I shoot it "naked" 100% of the time. I dont have a cage for it. I only have a Røde VideoMic Pro for scratch, a speed booster and lens. Its works. No cables, giant cumbersome rig to get in the way. I dont have to detach anything. I go for the shot, and I take it. And no. I am not holding it out like an iPad in front of me. Its about body posture and attitude. Learning techniques rather than buying your way out of it.

However I am still not perfect (I have some shaking in the genes) so I am looking for a small "buttstock" rig thing that is compact, solid, maybe foldable, so I can push it into my breast and get a stable shot, but without making a rig like Joe has. (Nothing agaist you Joe. If it works for you, it works). Any Ideas?

Also. Can we please stop with the "20 mins of battery time". Its getting old. If you seriously are only getting 20mins out of this camera, it is your fault, not the camera. With decent batteries you get about 40mins. And as said. With the Hahnel HLX-E6N I get about 50-60min. So with about 3-6 batteries (you can have it in your pockets all the time) you can get through a whole days shooting. I also have a powerbank in my camera bag so I can charge 2 batteries with USB should it be necessary (it never is).

I hope for your sake that BMD updates the Micro Cinema Camera with the 4K or 6K sensor.

In all fairness any A Camera is going to look like Joe's behemoth, probably worse. I'm sure the guy that JB showed with the P4K was probably F Camera and he had a cage, monitor, FF, and probably wireless as well.

Cube Camera/Micro 2 doesn't have to be a mess, in fact the better the design the less of a mess it will be. All folded up this guy weighs 1oz less than the P4K and Tilta cage.

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Fast, solid, light, well not with this lens. I can set this rig down on any side save the cable/handle side. The monitor is flipped to keep the input on the right.

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Np-F Bridge allows the use of the larger Sony batteries. These should have been the OEM to begin with. Three times the battery life and the shape of the camera is still the same.

This honker powers the cam and monitor for 4 hours, just long enough to fill up the 1TB ssd with 4K Prores 422. Attaches with 2 bolts, again the basic form factor and shape of the cam remains the same, slide the plate back 2 inches and you're good.

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Camera control, image, data, power are all possible over USB C, raw is available over SDI and HDMI. The Rise Of The Cubes is inevitable. The DSLM cinema camera has an identity crisis, I am reminded of Tarantino's monologue in "Sleep With Me"

Proper designed camera ergonomics just makes essential things way more comfortable and simpler. You don't need to lay down on the floor to shoot from bottom if you have tilt screen. You don't need to struggle to fit camera to gimbal, because you can just detach side handle and have perfect balance. You can rotate side handle to any desired position for some special angle shoots. I can't imagine how it is possible to shoot from tripod without tilt screen. And so on, and so on... Modular brick design just removes dozens of limitations that exists in DSLR form factor. And as it was described in earlier posts rig could be very simple, lightweight and compact (For example fully rigged BMMCC brick with cage, screen and side handle is more compact than unrigged Pocket4K)

All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

So new tiny camera boxes inspired by BMMCC keep occupy the market. For today there are KOMODO, few Z-CAMs (with new improved form factor), and announced Kinefinity MAVO Edge 8K (Most likely Kinefinity will fit smaller sensor cameras to same form factor in future)

All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

Dennis Sørensen wrote:With the Pocket I shoot it "naked" 100% of the time. I dont have a cage for it. I only have a Røde VideoMic Pro for scratch, a speed booster and lens. Its works. No cables, giant cumbersome rig to get in the way. I dont have to detach anything. I go for the shot, and I take it. And no. I am not holding it out like an iPad in front of me. Its about body posture and attitude. Learning techniques rather than buying your way out of it.

Amen! Rigs have their place, but learning how to effectively use the camera on its own is also important.I use a minimalist Wooden Camera cage for tripod work, but when shooting with MFT native lenses, for some quick B Roll or handheld quick sots, the camera on its own works nicely.Cheers

- HW serial interface to read parameters from camera and fully control it, including lens.- A dedicated exposure pulse. a pulse that goes high at start and low at end of each frame capture via dedicated interface. - Each frame to have couple of hundred bytes of data that could be annotated by user via serial interface.- Accurate time code over serial interface.- Method to easily synch several cameras with a simple cable between the cameras. No additional boxes required.- couple of extra I/O lines for future expansion.- 5V 0.5A power out for easy attachment of accessories.- No SBUS, VISCA, LANC, B4 lens etc. interfaces. instead provide small adapters that interface via the serial interface. (and/or source code for Arduino to make such interface)- SDI out, USB C for recording media, no internal recording media slots. - How cables leave the camera well thought of. It is not good that they stick out form every side of the camera. It would be good that USB C goes a bit into the camera etc.- Ethernet could be nice, but rather that would be with an external box, to limit the cables leaving directly form the camera.

Keep in mid how to attach it to a gimbal

External battery only

URSA Mini Pro lens mounting system.

selectable global shutter

Other sensor technology, recording formats, bit depths, resolution etc. This is something BMD does already very well. Just make sure it is good also for green screen work.

If you look at my design suggestion from another year, it's possible to do a Sigma FP thin slightly rectangle camera with rotatable display hinge (see my past posts about the design of the hinge) that allows big range of positions and battery still on the back, and as camcorder with simple low profile handle and riggable. A better modular all in one pocket.

An 8k pocket could be done this way with an professional version of the ambarella technology. It's the next level to go for BM, and can be used for many products. Ambarella is rather low margin technology provider, so maybe one of the cheap ways to get custom circuits, who have high level chip process node use. You basically should be able to get 8kp120 in something smaller than the Sigma fp, and even pro level 8kp60.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

Even if form factor looks similar, all those new cameras are not direct competitors for BMMCC.

Z-CAMs produce lower image quality, and less dynamic range than BMMCC.Z-CAMs RAW workflow is not quick and easy. Even lowest Z-CAM model price is higher than BMMCC (or near same as fully rigged BMMCC with OLPF filter)Z-CAMs record only to expensive CFAST 2.0. BMMCC use rather cheap SD cards.

KOMODO is 7 times more expensive than new BMMCC or 14 times more than second hand BMMCC. KOMODO "improved" 22s boot up time BMMCC boot time 2-3 seconds.KOMODO work 1.5 hours on 50W/h battery. BMMCC work about 6 hours from same power.No HDMI connector, require only SDI monitor.

$799 I think is the cheapest C model. It's not that great, 4k, lots of rolling shutter.

The curious thing is that the latitude test charts of the normal 4k zcam remind me very much of the mini 4.6k test charts with the fall off into noise.. So, I wonder if they are using a Fairchild sensor? People say Sony model, but I have never seen that verified.

The micro is not really that comparable. The use of cfast over SD card is a quality thing, and the micro is 2k. Boy, I'm waiting to see a 8k micro, and possibly do a design for a special all in one case add on. Thinness is the most important for all in one handheld due to the battery stacking. Once you add a good battery on the back of a micro, it gets so long, you might as well have a camcorder add on case.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them