Ah. Well that’s a relief. If it’s true, that means it’s just one loon as opposed to a group; a Taliban of one. Choudary seems to be a “preacher” who preaches to no one in particular; one who has, in short, no followers.

40 Responses to “Abandon all hope, ye who enter Shadwell”

I’m not sure what “council-managed” means in the UK, but here in Oz a “council flat” means public housing. If so, does this mean that whoever put up these posters despises the local culture while at the same time inhabiting public housing provided by that same culture?

Actually I don’t know the answer to the second question, given that I don’t know who put up the posters (or where Choudary lives). But broadly understood the answer is still yes, since the posters are obviously aimed at people who do live in the council flats.

I’m afraid Choudary does have followers and supporters. His organization Islam4UK was banned but that doesn’t mean a lot. The people, admittedly quite few, who were in it are still following him. He has plenty of time to devote to this kind of agitation because he receives government benefits of GP25,000/annum. British tax dollars at work!

I’m moving to Shadwell with a laser printer and a couple of dozen empty buckets, print up a bunch of signs declaring myself King of East London and demand tribute from my subjects. Apparently anyone with a printer, a staple gun, and enough moxie can make blanket declarations and shift the whole society.

Ah. Well that’s a relief. If it’s true, that means it’s just one loon as opposed to a group; a Taliban of one. Choudary seems to be a “preacher” who preaches to no one in particular; one who has, in short, no followers.

Choudary is a fairly common-or-garden Muslim rent-a-gob over here. He is the sort of advertisement for multiculturalism that makes you want to agree with the Daily Mail (a troubling thought for anyone who reads without moving their lips).

This article catches him rather well (for some reason, not paywalled):

So there you go, Shadwellites. You too can find Islam to be a thing of beauty, and a joy for as long as you live.

Because once in, there’s no getting out again.

… except that Shadwell isn’t “in” at all. Unless you think posters from nutballs compel people to join a cult? You give Islam too much credit, it isn’t a near-magical science fiction brainwashing ray from orbit controlled by some douchenozzle on the dole.

No Ophelia, I don’t think it does. There’s not actually an orbital Islam ray. Depending on where you live there may be guys with guns, or neighbors with machetes, and those are serious threats. Loser with a printer and a welfare check doesn’t really measure up, and I’m sure no non-Muslims in Shadwell were like “Damn, I was going to get smashed, get a hooker, smoke a cigarette after, listen to some music and then download some Internet porn… but then I saw those fliers. I have to follow any piece of printed material stapled to a pole. I guess I’ll go burn my Bible and pray to Mecca now. Damn damn DAMN!”

I’d be surprised, but that’s not the question we need to be asking, is it? The question we need to focus on is “is there any logical, rational, evidence-based reason to assume that anyone is going to get beaten up over this?” There’s a difference between justified and unjustified fears. I’m not in a position to say if there’s anyone with guns or machetes hanging out in Shadwell.

And then the follow-up question, which is maybe just as important: “Who is actually going to get their ass kicked? Someone violating the signs, or someone who tries to impose that on others?”

Joe, stop for a second. You’re a good commenter and I like you, so this isn’t coming from an adversary. But – you’re wrong, you’re blind to this problem, and you really need to *listen*. As a gay man who’s been beat up, I would absolutely feel extremely intimidated in Tower Hamlets. I know from experience that when signs and graffiti like this proliferate, they contribute to an atmosphere where violence against the fags/queers/prostitutes is considered more acceptable. Mirabile dictu, that often results in more violence.

Don’t write this off from an abstracted perspective. Real people who’ve been subject to this pressure and intimidation are telling you it’s real. Listen to them.

I did miss the bit of your source being LGBT-centric. That specific community has a more rational claim on being alarmed than the general community, so fair point.

I’m still not convinced of the “welcome to sharia” point that Omar seemed to be making. My larger point still stands: a sign doesn’t create sharia marshal law, and unless there’s a credible reason to think that there’s actual force behind the threat, this shouldn’t be blown out of proportion. It reminds me a bit of that giant kerfuffle over Terry Jones in Florida and his “International Burn a Koran Day”… it was just some dude from Dirtbergville, Florida with a tiny church and a big mouth. Making big declarations doesn’t mean you have a chance in seven hells of backing them up with any actions.

Sorry Josh. I didn’t mean to give the impression that I’m dismissive of LGBT issues.

I don’t think I’m “wrong on this issue” as much as we’re talking about two different issues… I think. I’m generally dismissive of what I see as alarmism over a mostly nonexistent threat of Islamic takeover of the West, and exaggeration over the real but small dangers coming from certain sources that are more bark than bite. I’m not saying you don’t keep an eye out, or that you don’t sanction people who do things like this. It is ugly and nasty and might be a risk, and I get that just because it isn’t the advent of Sharia law over all of East London, that doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t keep an eye out for the idiots responsible and make sure they don’t convert words to deeds.

So, I guess my position is people shouldn’t make a mountain out of a molehill… and you should also kick over molehills before they become mountains. “Kick” and not “nuke”, proportionate response and all that.

Joe, thanks. I don’t think you’re dismissive of LGBT issues, but I do think (as *most* straight people are, and this doesn’t mean they’re of bad character) you’re unaware to a certain degree. That’s all. We’re all unaware of some things.

I understand what you’re saying about mountains and molehills, but I think we disagree. I don’t see this as a molehill. Maybe not a mountain, but definitely a foothill with the potential to grow. Yes, yes, yes, I understand about ISLAM!!! alarmism. I concede that, and leave it aside. I’m talking about real potential dangers in turning a blind eye to this sort of thing. The existence of the Terry Jones’ and BNPs of the world doesn’t magically disappear the actual problems with misguided multiculturalism that lets bigotry oppress people in the name of “inclusiveness.”

You may not also know that Tower Hamlets has had a documented problem with muslim extremists putting up anti-gay propaganda before. There is a recent historical context that’s relevant. Also, it’s not just “the LGBT community” that should be relatively more alarmed. Everyone who lives in a city should be alarmed about anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-immigrant/whatever propaganda that tends to normalize violence and discrimination.

And there’s the whole neighborhood thing, the “community” thing. Life is hell for women in some Paris banlieues where the young men police their behavior, sometimes with rape; cf Dans L’Enfer des Tournantes.

You may not also know that Tower Hamlets has had a documented problem with muslim extremists putting up anti-gay propaganda before. There is a recent historical context that’s relevant. Also, it’s not just “the LGBT community” that should be relatively more alarmed. Everyone who lives in a city should be alarmed about anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-immigrant/whatever propaganda that tends to normalize violence and discrimination.

Man, I specifically made allowances for my ignorance of local business making the threat seem more credible.

The predecessor organization of Islam4UK was Al Muhajiroun, an openly terrorist organization with links to Hamas and several other terrorist groups overseas. The 7/7 bombers were members of Al Muhajiroun. After those bombings the leader of AM Omar Bakri fled abroad fearing arrest by counter-terrorism authorities. AM was banned. It disintegrated into a number of splinter groups the main one being Islam4UK under Anjem Choudary (who had been Bakri’s right hand man). I have no doubt that this organization would have NO hesitation in resorting to violence to enforce its wishes. Since the Met seems to have given up policing certain areas of London they would probably have a free hand to beat up anybody violating the new rules. At the very least they could create a severe policing problem while intimidating many people, which is what they really want to accomplish anyway.

I feel like we’re talking past each other. I’m willing to admit that I took the wrong tack and haven’t been clear in getting my point across. I’d love to win this point, because like anyone else I’m sure I’m correct whenever I make a stand on any point.

… and I’d rather lose this point than lose your respect, so I’d rather stop arguing it. Is that OK with you guys?

Went to view a flat share in Shadwell this evening and came across this blog when searching for a little more info about the area. I’ve just moved to London and my colleague thinks Shadwell is nice although he’s never visited, but because it’s close to Wapping it should be ok. After visiting myself this evening I’m not too sure. The estate I visited seemed a bit forlorn compared to other estates I have visited (I lived on one as a teenager in the North West and also visited a couple of pleasant safe ones near Waterloo in London so I’m not a snob ;) ) and also I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb as a young professional lady – the people I saw this evening were very traditionally dressed, even some of the younger people – apart from the lad I saw dressed like a gangster rapper. However there seemed to be quite a few young families around which made me warm to is slightly (don’t know why I don’t have kids)- plus it’s cheap!!

You guys have no idea! I’ve been living in Shadwell for years. I am an alternative looking girl and my flatmate is a crazy gay guy, we party, we drink and walk around in all sorts of outfits and nobody ever said a word to us! Our neighbours are very nice and quiet (unlike previous ones in Camden). I haven’t seen any such posters, stop spreading lies, all of the above is just bull…