If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

View Poll Results: Who were the greatest managers of all time? (vote for your top 5)

He was a tough one to give a clue for, and yer good! (go back, I edited the original)
Hotdog, was #20 considered a giant among certain organizations!
Of course, he could also be windy

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Bill James' utterly fascinating Guide to Baseball Managers makes the point it is very difficult to evaluate how "good" a manager is (was Gene Mauch a talented manager who usually was saddled with poor teams? was Fred Haney a guy who underachieved with some very talented ones?), much less quantify it. However, it is quite possible to evaluate how successful a manager is, and to reasonably quantify that. A manager gets three points for a World Series champion, two points for a league winner but not WS champ, and one for a division winner who doesn't make the series. He also gets one point for a winning record, another for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins. The book came out in 1996, so it doesn't deal with Wild Card teams. Cox is almost assuredly in the forties, and LaRussa and Torre are as well in this system. Leaving them and any other actives aside, here's Bill's list as of 1996:

As with all such lists, it isn't perfect, but it's pretty darned good. James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager. He might be a tad too high with that number, but over 25 would certainly fit the bill.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Bill James' utterly fascinating Guide to Baseball Managers makes the point it is very difficult to evaluate how "good" a manager is (was Gene Mauch a talented manager who usually was saddled with poor teams? ),

Remember this

<He also gets one point for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins.>

Tough for the early guys

<2. Mack 72 (five World Series wins mean something)>

50 years means something

<James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager.>

What happened to good vs. successful? (see above)

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Of course Mack & McGraw are gonna be near the top of a LOT of lists just due to longevity

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Ty Cobb, as manager, never had the horses. Yet, he won. Over and over again.

Seems to me he had more to work with than the average manager. He had three hall of famers, himself, Manush and Heilmann, and real good players like Blue and Veach, along with some pretty good pitchers like Leonard and Dauss. Not many managers have three hall of famers among their 8 position players.

His career record as a manager was 479-444 .519. Total Baseball rates him as 5.3 wins BELOW expected for his career as a manager.

I would not describe that as "winning over and over again."

Cobb was an average manger AT BEST, and should have just been a batting coach, AT MOST.

<James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager.>

What happened to good vs. successful? (see above)

Like it or not, the voters really tend to vote on success rather than try to parse out who's "good" and who's "bad" as a manager.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

Like it or not, the voters really tend to vote on success rather than try to parse out who's "good" and who's "bad" as a manager.

See
Rizzuto, Phil, and
Santo, Ron

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

#19 would have come out smelling better and been even a bigger hit if he had learned from the example of a different colored team

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

#18 was the first one of these in the big leagues, eh? He wasn't really the pits, but he gets so little respect it's like people are mooning him

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

If you caught this man's name (save one letter),
You would wonder if he wore a sweater.
Started theaters for movies,
Thought banking was groovy,
And as managers go, few were better.

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Seems to me he had more to work with than the average manager. He had three hall of famers, himself, Manush and Heilmann, and real good players like Blue and Veach, along with some pretty good pitchers like Leonard and Dauss. Not many managers have three hall of famers among their 8 position players.

His career record as a manager was 479-444 .519. Total Baseball rates him as 5.3 wins BELOW expected for his career as a manager.

I would not describe that as "winning over and over again."

Cobb was an average manger AT BEST, and should have just been a batting coach, AT MOST.

Did you actually READ the article I gave you??? Until you do, how can I talk to you? You do not have the details.

Did you actually READ how those guys pitched then? (except for Dauss in 1925)

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Um, you guys HAVE Fred Clarke on your list (although you are on the right track on one clue)

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

I understand, but my point is that it sometimes applies to players too

Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

I updated all the lists I posted through 2008 except for the Bill James success points one.

Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.