The Count didn't "refuse" so much as "hesitate" to sacrifice Theresia, until he bled out and died. Miura chose to make it more ambiguous than an outright refusal to sacrifice his own daughter, which I think is pretty important given the kind of monster the Count had become.

And Femto didn't try and threaten him, he was telling him exactly what would (and did) happen to him if he died there.

Yeah you have a point with how the refusal seemed ambiguous, I remember at first where I thought The Count did sacrifice his daughter due to him saying "No.. I don't want to die" but when she was spared I was quite surprised.

Threaten was not the best choice of words then in that case, my mistake.

I always found apostles to be tragic characters. To lose everything you had, your closest friends, relatives and family and then being forced to sacrifice them just to survive and become something evil and monstrous. I always wondered how many apostles regret what they did and what they became.

I always found apostles to be tragic characters. To lose everything you had, your closest friends, relatives and family and then being forced to sacrifice them just to survive and become something evil and monstrous. I always wondered how many apostles regret what they did and what they became.

That is a good way to look at it, but I would be more nuanced. For many of the "main" ones that were showcased (Slug Count, Rochine, Beherit apostle... even Ganishka), Miura went to the trouble of showing us how they got dealt a shitty hand in life and eventually made that terrible choice. Just like for Griffith, their existence had been planned in such a way that they'd end up like that. As for regret specifically, Rochine's death in particular comes to mind. However, for each of these examples there's a case like Wyald's, or the Snake Baron's... People who fully enjoyed what they got and seemed to regret nothing. In fact, even Rochine delighted in her evilness before Guts came around. So while there's a tragic side to them, they do remain oppressors first and foremost, people who offered what was most precious to them in exchange for power.

This allows Guts to live out his days (or hours depending on how that fight goes) as a human rather than force him down the same path of wraith-dom. Or maybe he will go through with it, there's a lot of factors we can't know at this point that will determine this.

The end reveals the omnipresent narrator who describes the most cataclysmic scenes of the manga, as well as the most personal scenes of Guts like they're describing a long lost legend, is Void, just as it was in the 97 Anime, mulling over how one man derailed the track laid out by God himself to such an extent.

I think the ideal ending for Guts would be like you said, a small piece of heaven for him and Casca to live out the rest of their days far away from the troubles of the world and constant struggling/fighting. Something like the Griffith's illusion comes to mind , except this time with Guts, Casca and a couple of children of their own.

I imagine end of manga Guts as an old, grizzled veteran who has stopped wandering aimlessly and has raised a family with Casca and has largely put his fighting days behind him , but still retains the status of a mercenary legend due to his exploits with band of the hawk as well as victory over former god of war, Zodd ( which we all think will happen anyway ) . Wouldn't it be cool if Guts were to inherit that status from Zodd and enter annals of history as a Demon/God killer not just in midland, but throughout the whole world.

After his death ( which may or may not be shown in the manga ), we could see a large statue of him erected as a memory ( possibly by Rickert and some artisans), planted firmly on the hill of the swords, as if he's watching over his long dead comrades, with people and acquintances from all over the world coming to pay their respects.

Maybe it sounds overly dramatic, but I think Guts deserves at least that.

My theory on how Berserk will end isn't exactly a concrete ending but more of an idea. Zodd, when not in beast form, looks similar to Guts. Skullknight looks similar in someways to Griffith (especially when on his horse). Both pairs hate each other and wish to fight to the death. So Berserk may end with Guts and Griffith becoming the next Zodd and Skullknight. Forever fighting each other with neither of them killing the other.

Zodd and Guts have spiky hair and the Skull Knight and Griffith both ride horses. That's where the resemblance stops in each case. Also, the Skull Knight and Zodd don't hate each other. Zodd just likes to fight strong opponents, and the Skull Knight doesn't seem to care. As for Griffith, he has said that he feels nothing towards Guts, and he doesn't wish to fight him at all. So... this doesn't make any sense to me.

Guts may lose sight of why he fights and ends up reverting back to when he was younger and just fighting to fight. Only now no man can even touch him. Hell, he may succumb to the Beherit and sacrifice his friends, or succumb to his inner beast.

I can hardly think of anything more unlikely than what you're proposing here.

After his death ( which may or may not be shown in the manga ), we could see a large statue of him erected as a memory ( possibly by Rickert and some artisans), planted firmly on the hill of the swords, as if he's watching over his long dead comrades, with people and acquintances from all over the world coming to pay their respects.

Maybe it sounds overly dramatic, but I think Guts deserves at least that.

I actually think people may never find out that Griffith is a fraud, and would continue to think of him as some savior. Many centuries into the future there may be people who have formed cults or religions about him. With this in mind, people may curse Guts' name and portray him as the villain who opposed their savior, not knowing that Guts is the one who saved them all in the first place.

My theory on how Berserk will end isn't exactly a concrete ending but more of an idea. Zodd, when not in beast form, looks similar to Guts. Skullknight looks similar in someways to Griffith (especially when on his horse). Both pairs hate each other and wish to fight to the death. So Berserk may end with Guts and Griffith becoming the next Zodd and Skullknight. Forever fighting each other with neither of them killing the other.

Guts may lose sight of why he fights and ends up reverting back to when he was younger and just fighting to fight. Only now no man can even touch him. Hell, he may succumb to the Beherit and sacrifice his friends, or succumb to his inner beast. But even then he will never be strong enough to truly defeat Griffith.I mean, the series may not truly end. Just continue until both sides are alone in an eternal 1v1 match against each other.It isn't happy or sad, or evening fulfilling but it seems fitting for Berserk. Guts can't beat fate, or "God". Despite how hard he tries his fate is set in stone and is unchangeable.

I have two problems with my theory, however. 1: Berserk will end without having an end. And 2: Guts is starting to resemble Skullknight more and more as the series goes on and, unlike Griffith, Skullknight is against the Godhand. But the main idea of Guts and Griffith eternally locked in a 1v1 with neither of them being able to kill the other is possible. Hell, maybe Skullknight and Zodd are just both symbols of Guts. Zodd being pre-eclipse Guts or the Guts who succumbs to his inner beast and Skullknight being the future Guts or the current Guts.

I don't know if this theory has already been made or not but it's something I've been thinking about for quite a while.

The entire story will be rendered pointless if this theory is true. It's definitely not going to end this way, safe to say.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 08:06:18 AM by Lawliet »

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"There are no pacts between men and lions. Wolves and lambs cannot enjoy a meeting of the minds." ~ Achilles, the Iliad of Homer

Honestly I wouldn't pay too much attention to this. There have been theories about Guts having a connection to Zodd due to this but there's nothing in the manga that supports it. I think its largely a coincidence.

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Skullknight looks similar in someways to Griffith (especially when on his horse)

Huh? You might wanna be more specific here because I see no similarity there.

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Both pairs hate each other and wish to fight to the death.

Aside Guts hating Griffith, Zodd doesn't really hate Guts or Skull Knight. If anything, he respects them as warriors, especially Skull Knight whom he finds the most equal to him.

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Guts may lose sight of why he fights and ends up reverting back to when he was younger and just fighting to fight. Only now no man can even touch him. Hell, he may succumb to the Beherit and sacrifice his friends, or succumb to his inner beast. But even then he will never be strong enough to truly defeat Griffith.

Guts has actual support this time via Schierke and a clear goal in his line, that is Casca's restoration. No doubt that there'll be many more moments where he'll have to face his inner beast, but I doubt he'll completely succumb to it. There would be no story left anymore if he did. Im sure there'll be some sort of solution as to how permanently restrain beast of darkness or maximize its power without falling under its influence.

As for sacrificing his friends, that's complete nonsense. Guts was already in situation in materaliazed Qliphoth where Slaan tried to force him to use it, but he refused. Guts fighting supernatural forces and prevailing againt something larger than himself is the core of this manga. Suddenly sacrificing valuable friends who helped him overcome his fears and darkness and made him feel like a part of the group once again would make no sense, Guts is not evil and he values comrades. He would never do what Griffith did.

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I actually think people may never find out that Griffith is a fraud, and would continue to think of him as some savior. Many centuries into the future there may be people who have formed cults or religions about him. With this in mind, people may curse Guts name and portray him as the villain who opposed their savior, not knowing that Guts is the one who saved them all in the first place.

That will largely depend on what Griffith decides to do with people in Falconia or even wider humanity. We know something big is forming up but we dont know what. I think its only matter of time before the Falcon of light reveals his not so shiny colours.

That will largely depend on what Griffith decides to do with people in Falconia or even wider humanity. We know something big is forming up but we dont know what. I think its only matter of time before the Falcon of light reveals his not so shiny colours.

True.

The thing with Berserk is that it is a very unpredictable story. The most unpredictable story I am aware of, in fact. I write stories myself, and can usually predict how a story would end long before it does. But I can't for the life of me predict how Berserk would proceed next, let alone end. Yet another reason why Miura is a master storyteller.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 08:05:33 AM by Lawliet »

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"There are no pacts between men and lions. Wolves and lambs cannot enjoy a meeting of the minds." ~ Achilles, the Iliad of Homer

Hey, just came in to say thanks for ripping apart my shitty theory. Looking back I see it wasn't well thought out and had little evidence to support it. It was overall based on "oh, these two guys and these two guys look kinda' the same-ish, so THIS might happen." And it was obvious I just threw it out there with no planning or thought. So, sorry, It was a shitty theory. And thank you to those who responded. I didn't expect so many people to tear it apart like that. That's pretty cool. I'll remove the theory, as I'm frankly embarrassed by it, and will hopefully be able to improve myself and try to actually make a theory not completely stupid like that one.

The Count didn't "refuse" so much as "hesitate" to sacrifice Theresia, until he bled out and died. Miura chose to make it more ambiguous than an outright refusal to sacrifice his own daughter, which I think is pretty important given the kind of monster the Count had become.

And Femto didn't try and threaten him, he was telling him exactly what would (and did) happen to him if he died there.

I think the envisioned family painting before the brand vanishes implied that he refused to sacrifice Theresia.

Well... The God Hand falls, Zodd and Skull Knight die with their missions complete. Griffith dies with regret, the closest he'll come to redeeming his humanity. Guts strikes the fatal blow, but finds little joy in it. He's weary. The world remains chaotic and full of magic, and man must choose how to make their own way in it, but they can. Guts and Casca are free of the brand, they've helped shepherd in a new era and the people to lead it, their friends and all those they've touched. They retire to relatively quiet lives eating soup, naming children after old comrades, and living happily ever after together. They don't find it ordinary at all.

Well... The God Hand falls, Zodd and Skull Knight die with their missions complete. Griffith dies with regret, the closest he'll come to redeeming his humanity. Guts strikes the fatal blow, but finds little joy in it. He's weary. The world remains chaotic and full of magic, and man must choose how to make their own way in it, but they can. Guts and Casca are free of the brand, they've helped shepherd in a new era and the people to lead it, their friends and all those they've touched. They retire to relatively quiet lives eating soup, naming children after old comrades, and living happily ever after together. They don't find it ordinary at all.

I just wanted to ask who is eligible for sacrifice? Is it exclusive to humans or could other apostles/godhand members fit that criteria as well?

I thought that maybe Guts' new band would be killed off by griffith in the climax of the story, and with guts having no one left to care for yet still having the behleit in his possession. He could have his sacrifice be griffith and the god hand? Because they're the only people that he cares about after the death of his new friends?

Similar to how griffith was talking about guts being his anchor when he was being tortured. Guts' purpose and "anchor" after the proposed death of his new band would be the only thing keeping him going, without that he would have nothing I'd assume. So is a sacrifice only restricted to those you "love" or those you care for; whatever that means.

Maybe the god hand would laugh at the thought that they could be sacrificed, while Void looks on without saying anything, then suddenly raises his hand and fires the brands onto all of them, including himself. Because it's ultimately not up to them who gets sacrificed but to causality/idea of evil.

Although this may seem like an ironic way to win that penultimate fight. I can't help but think that it's thematically inconsistent from what the rest of the series has developed up until this point: negating several moral lessons (abandoning revenge to care for the things you have) - anger and hatred literally causing an evil god to emerge that acts as a catalyst for even more suffering.

It brings up the question of how to deal with the Idea of Evil. Maybe there's a good reason why Miura went back and omitted it? (I know he talked of it being too revealing, but maybe it was TOO overpowered in the context of themes presented).

If the sacrificer happens to summons the God Hand for a sacrifice, the sacrificee can only be someone who is emotionally important to the sacrificer, "someone so close to you that it's almost like giving up a part of you."

I just wanted to ask who is eligible for sacrifice? Is it exclusive to humans or could other apostles/godhand members fit that criteria as well?

I thought that maybe Guts' new band would be killed off by griffith in the climax of the story, and with guts having no one left to care for yet still having the behleit in his possession. He could have his sacrifice be griffith and the god hand? Because they're the only people that he cares about after the death of his new friends?

Similar to how griffith was talking about guts being his anchor when he was being tortured. Guts' purpose and "anchor" after the proposed death of his new band would be the only thing keeping him going, without that he would have nothing I'd assume. So is a sacrifice only restricted to those you "love" or those you care for; whatever that means.

Maybe the god hand would laugh at the thought that they could be sacrificed, while Void looks on without saying anything, then suddenly raises his hand and fires the brands onto all of them, including himself. Because it's ultimately not up to them who gets sacrificed but to causality/idea of evil.

Although this may seem like an ironic way to win that penultimate fight. I can't help but think that it's thematically inconsistent from what the rest of the series has developed up until this point: negating several moral lessons (abandoning revenge to care for the things you have) - anger and hatred literally causing an evil god to emerge that acts as a catalyst for even more suffering.

It brings up the question of how to deal with the Idea of Evil. Maybe there's a good reason why Miura went back and omitted it? (I know he talked of it being too revealing, but maybe it was TOO overpowered in the context of themes presented).

Yes, I'm sure that the God Hand, who carry out the ceremonies and who place the Brand upon the sacrificed, will be more than happy to brand themselves at Guts' behest. And that the Idea of Evil would have manipulated events in such a way that Its own arbiters would die. That's a pretty silly and anticlimatic way to end things, don't you think?

As DANGERDOOOOM explained, a sacrifice has to be something so vitally important that to lose it is to lose a part of yourself. In pretty much all cases, it's person or persons that was very dear to the apostle-to-be. Griffith and the God Hand are not dear to Guts. They are his enemies, which as the Count learned the hard way, is a no-go.

The only exception we've seen to the typical rules was the Beherit Apostle, but he was a very special case with some very unique aspects to his sacrifice and transformation. He chose to sacrifice himself and the world he knew, but as he explains, while he hated the world, it was still something he clung to, something that still held a powerful connection in his heart. And when you ultimately get down to it, it isn't really different from all the other sacrifices we've seen, which have always been subject to conflicted feelings from the demon-to-be. The Count was betrayed by his wife in the worst way, but he still couldn't find it in himself to kill her because of his love for her. Rosine loved her parents, including her abusive father, but couldn't stand to live in that miserable home where they constantly fought. And Guts stirred up feelings in Griffith that made him forget his dream, which is what made Griffith come to resent him. Guts did not qualify as a sacrifice because he was an "anchor" for Griffith; he was a sacrifice because Griffith was still fond of him, even in his resentment.

Guts sacrificing the God Hand would hardly qualify as a sacrifice. His goal is to kill them, and sacrificing them would accomplish that goal very nicely, so it's not really much of a loss.

I do feel silly after reading the earlier posts ITT that explain IoE's detachment from humanity and that it has its own agency. So yeah it would be counter to its own motives if the godhand were killed off through that bizarre loophole.

So can a behleit still activate if all the people or whoever you cherish are dead? I mean what else could Guts sacrifice? I'm only bringing up the behleit because it seems to be a chekhov's gun of sorts with its significance being hidden until some pivotal moment like a "final battle".

Guts is not going to sacrifice anyone, you should get that idea out of your head, he wants to defeat the god hand, not become their henchmen. we know exactly what the beherit is and what it does when activated, it opens up a road of dragons and take you to a deep part of the astral world, it summons the god hand. the beherit will eventually be used by guts to get close to the god hand. Guts has made it pretty clear on several occasions that he's a human and doesn't like to be grouped up with apostles he hates them. one of the best parts of berserk is guts retaining his humanity despite all the shit he's been through. Miura will most likely not do another eclipse type scenario where a bunch of main players get killed off, something like that hasn't happened since the golden age, and probably won't happen again because it's not necessary.

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So can a behleit still activate if all the people or whoever you cherish are dead?

up until now, there has always been something to sacrifice, beherits are directly tied to the idea of evil, who weaves every man's destiny, when the time comes, the beherit will be used and there is gonna be something to give up,will the wielder of the beherit go with the sacrifice? not necessarily.

Dunno about the final battle, but I think that the last page will show Guts and Casca sitting on a hill together watching the sun rise over the ruins of Falconia. Guts will have been heavily wounded during the battle, and it will be left up to the audience to decide whether to believe he dies in Casca's arms on the hill, or survives and him and Casca live together for the rest of their lives happy and in peace.