God doesn't throw us into Hell... He lets us choose for ourselves... with Him or w/o Him?

We either say thy will be done or eventually God says thy will be done... nothing could be more fair.

Really? You think that qualifies as any sort of fair choice? Follow me or be tortured for all eternity?

i'll answer in 2 ways...

1. yes... when considering that w/o God you never exist... the fact that a being would create you and groom you for eternal bliss and all that He would ask for in exchange would be love and relationship (through prayer and body or believers) is incredible. I love my mom eternally and even though she gave birth to me, when compared to the creator of the universe I must admit she pales a bit... so HOW MUCH MORE should we love God??? if we choose to ignore God's work in our lives + all the evidence around us that is clearly there if we let God in, then yes I think we deserve Hell, which is basically summed up as an eternity away from God... who we long for and live as though the cosmic bench is full even when some of us (this whole board apparently) believe that it is empty.

2. Again you need to look to scripture. God GIVES US UP TO OUR DESIRES. Hell is a prison door that we lock from the inside and eventually He locks from the outside... The only counter to that would be God forcing us to love him which would destroy free will. And briefly on suffering... so MANY of the attributes that we call great (courage, humility, love, self-sacrifice, etc.) could not exist w/o "the problem of evil." the evil in the world molds us into who we are called to be in relationship with God. If we love God, pray and spend time with God, and grow in our Godliness throughout life we will spend eternity in "the dance" i.e. the eternal family (our true family) and all that was ever said will become untrue...

and since it fits in this post... here is one of my favorite quotes of all time... i'm not saying believe, i'm simply saying keep your mind open...

"That is what mortals misunderstand. They say of some temporal suffering, "No future bliss can make up for it," not knowing that Heaven, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say "Let me have but this and I'll take the consequences": little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of Heaven: the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun rises here and the twilight turns to blackness down there, the Blessed will say "We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven," and the Lost, "We were always in Hell." And both will speak truly." - C.S. Lewis

1. yes... when considering that w/o God you never exist... the fact that a being would create you and groom you for eternal bliss and all that He would ask for in exchange would be love and relationship (through prayer and body or believers) is incredible. I love my mom eternally and even though she gave birth to me, when compared to the creator of the universe I must admit she pales a bit... so HOW MUCH MORE should we love God??? if we choose to ignore God's work in our lives + all the evidence around us that is clearly there if we let God in, then yes I think we deserve Hell, which is basically summed up as an eternity away from God... who we long for and live as though the cosmic bench is full even when some of us (this whole board apparently) believe that it is empty.

So this being created me and groomed me for eternal bliss, wants my love, and wants a relationship with me, but the only way he knows how to get what he wants is to threaten me with some form of eternal torture?

gobigblue1982 wrote:

2. Again you need to look to scripture. God GIVES US UP TO OUR DESIRES. Hell is a prison door that we lock from the inside and eventually He locks from the outside... The only counter to that would be God forcing us to love him which would destroy free will. And briefly on suffering... so MANY of the attributes that we call great (courage, humility, love, self-sacrifice, etc.) could not exist w/o "the problem of evil." the evil in the world molds us into who we are called to be in relationship with God. If we love God, pray and spend time with God, and grow in our Godliness throughout life we will spend eternity in "the dance" i.e. the eternal family (our true family) and all that was ever said will become untrue...

So this guy wants to have a loving relationship with me but gives me up to desires he created in me... for what? Teaching purposes?

I would like to see you go somewhere like Rwanda and look a woman of any age in the eyes and tell her that "the evil in the world molds us into who we are called to be" and see if you don't feel like a shiitake head.

...but don't try to change any of the steps, or you'll be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

Keller wrote:

It is God actively giving us up to what we have freely chosen-to go our own way, be our own "the master of our fate, the captain of our soul," to get away from him and his control. It is God banishing us to regions we have desperately tried to get into all our lives.

So basically they both say the same thing. Follow God or be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

Ergo - your Tim Keller quote isn't a rebuttal of mumbles' point.

yes, and again, how is that not fair.

creator creates you (before this you did not exist, now you are an eternal soul being groomed for paradise with God). in exchange He asks for love and relationship w/ the Trinity through prayer and community, missions of mercy w/ fellow believers, and spreading the joy of Christ to every tribe and tongue so they may join in the eternal, blissfully perfected family of God.

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

creator says ok fine... here are 100 chances to turn away from your selfish sin and just let me love on you for eternity...

you say nope because Christians think being gay is a sin...

creator (finally) sadly doesn't break doctrine of free will and allows you to lock Him out... He secures the lock from the outside and thy (your) will is done...

1. yes... when considering that w/o God you never exist... the fact that a being would create you and groom you for eternal bliss and all that He would ask for in exchange would be love and relationship (through prayer and body or believers) is incredible. I love my mom eternally and even though she gave birth to me, when compared to the creator of the universe I must admit she pales a bit... so HOW MUCH MORE should we love God??? if we choose to ignore God's work in our lives + all the evidence around us that is clearly there if we let God in, then yes I think we deserve Hell, which is basically summed up as an eternity away from God... who we long for and live as though the cosmic bench is full even when some of us (this whole board apparently) believe that it is empty.

So this being created me and groomed me for eternal bliss, wants my love, and wants a relationship with me, but the only way he knows how to get what he wants is to threaten me with some form of eternal torture?

gobigblue1982 wrote:

2. Again you need to look to scripture. God GIVES US UP TO OUR DESIRES. Hell is a prison door that we lock from the inside and eventually He locks from the outside... The only counter to that would be God forcing us to love him which would destroy free will. And briefly on suffering... so MANY of the attributes that we call great (courage, humility, love, self-sacrifice, etc.) could not exist w/o "the problem of evil." the evil in the world molds us into who we are called to be in relationship with God. If we love God, pray and spend time with God, and grow in our Godliness throughout life we will spend eternity in "the dance" i.e. the eternal family (our true family) and all that was ever said will become untrue...

So this guy wants to have a loving relationship with me but gives me up to desires he created in me... for what? Teaching purposes?

I would like to see you go somewhere like Rwanda and look a woman of any age in the eyes and tell her that "the evil in the world molds us into who we are called to be" and see if you don't feel like a shiitake head.

i haven't been to rwanda but trust me brother, many brothers and sisters in Christ have and do and will continue to risk their lives to spread Christ's love to that woman...

God created mankind with free will... (alternative would be a puppet show)

mankind chose himself rather than God...

God (in His eternal, unconditional love) broke the dance of the Trinity (briefly) by allowing Christ to live, face temptation, face doubt, suffer, and ultimately die a bloody death as a criminal just to say "it is finished" and take the weight of ALL OF THE SINS IN HISTORY (can you imagine His agony) out of LOVE for us... many of whom (2,000 years later and 2,000x dumber) deny Him.

rest is history.

included the f***ing (not sure if cursing is allowed on this board) factory farms that we all agree (at least we have that) are of the devil...

Last edited by gobigblue1982 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

Again, I find this insulting. What makes you think that atheists are selfish? Or that all we care about is having some life-long debauchery? Or that we have empty holes that need stuffing? Maybe I sense some projecting.

gobigblue1982 wrote:

creator says ok fine... here are 100 chances to turn away from your selfish sin and just let me love on you for eternity...

you say nope because Christians think being gay is a sin...

creator (finally) sadly doesn't break doctrine of free will and allows you to lock Him out... He secures the lock from the outside and thy (your) will is done...

Free will... your choice...

Oh, the gay thing. Why would I want to be "loved on for eternity" by some god that created people who cannot be themselves without sinning?

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

My only point is that you said you were going to provide a rebuttal to Mumble's point

gobigblue1982 wrote:

just mumbles wrote:

gobigblue1982 wrote:

God created us to join in the dance...

...but don't try to change any of the steps, or you'll be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

rather than type out a rebuttal to this i will simply let you read through some stuff from Tim Keller regarding this subject. This says all that needs to be said better than i could say it.

But the very long block quote you provided basically restates Mumbles' very succinct summary, which is that your god claims to be a merciful god provided you agree with him. If you don't you're shiitake out of luck and you get to go directly to hell.

If you're going to try and make your point using long block quotes, at least find ones that support your point, and don't restate your opponent's conclusion.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

Again, I find this insulting. What makes you think that atheists are selfish? Or that all we care about is having some life-long debauchery? Or that we have empty holes that need stuffing? Maybe I sense some projecting.

gobigblue1982 wrote:

creator says ok fine... here are 100 chances to turn away from your selfish sin and just let me love on you for eternity...

you say nope because Christians think being gay is a sin...

creator (finally) sadly doesn't break doctrine of free will and allows you to lock Him out... He secures the lock from the outside and thy (your) will is done...

Free will... your choice...

Oh, the gay thing. Why would I want to be "loved on for eternity" by some god that created people who cannot be themselves without sinning?

to be gay is for a man to look at a woman in lust is to a teacher gossiping about another is to a dad losing his patience at his kid is to a teen having sex out of wedlock, etc.

point is anything outside of God's plan is sinful. we all face temptations. some greater than others. Through prayer, counsel, and love we can overcome many of our sins...

there is way too much focus on the sin of homosexuality... every human lives a life in sin. as we grow into relationship with God our desire for sin changes...

people tend to look at the sin of homosexuality as though it's alone in it's difficulty to overcome...

also, there is nothing in the Bible that states that practicing homosexuals are damned... in fact to the contrary the Bible says that all of us are in sin but those who come to know and love Christ will inherit the kingdom.

As true Christians say, is is how the deed is forthrightly chosen which lends credence to to true nature of the fires of heaven. I mean, if I learnt anything, it is this: without God there is no thing that is absent of belief in questions.

creator creates you (before this you did not exist, now you are an eternal soul being groomed for paradise with God). in exchange He asks for love and relationship w/ the Trinity through prayer and community, missions of mercy w/ fellow believers, and spreading the joy of Christ to every tribe and tongue so they may join in the eternal, blissfully perfected family of God.

you say screw that i'm watching what i want, drinking what i want, smoking what i want, buying what i want, spending my time (selfishly) how i want, fornicating with who i want,(etc. etc. etc.) and i'm living FOR ME, and I'm going to stuff my empty hole full of things that will ultimately leave be unhealthy, unfulfilled, guilty, broke, etc.

creator says ok fine... here are 100 chances to turn away from your selfish sin and just let me love on you for eternity...

you say nope because Christians think being gay is a sin...

creator (finally) sadly doesn't break doctrine of free will and allows you to lock Him out... He secures the lock from the outside and thy (your) will is done...

Free will... your choice...

Sounds a lot like my mother. She thinks since she gave birth to me that I should do whatever she wants me to. If it was up to her, I'd have 20 babies while living in her house.

I think the major flaw in your argument all along is that belief/worship of a god, does not define morality. Without morality... you'd be a sociopath or something similar. There are many selfless people who do not believe in any gods or the Christian doctrine.

I know many non-Christians that are loving, caring people that try to improve the world in the ways they can. I wouldn't say they are anything close to selfish mustards you envision.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

also, there is nothing in the Bible that states that practicing homosexuals are damned... in fact to the contrary the Bible says that all of us are in sin but those who come to know and love Christ will inherit the kingdom.

So basically you're saying that most Christian churches, including the Catholic one, are wrong? Because I could agree with you on that one.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

But the very long block quote you provided basically restates Mumbles' very succinct summary, which is that your god claims to be a merciful god provided you agree with him. If you don't you're shiitake out of luck and you get to go directly to hell.

If you're going to try and make your point using long block quotes, at least find ones that support your point, and don't restate your opponent's conclusion.

you still don't get it...

you aren't shiitake out of luck...

you chose to live for yourself so God says FINE, live for yourself...

it's that simple... God is the creator and owes you nothing... He gave you life and He can take your life. Anything apart from this is an extreme philosophical error in relation to the divine. How can the creator of EVERYTHING not demand that His creation do as He says???

Well guess what... as silly as it sounds He DOESN'T demand that. He says "I am the way, the truth and, the life," come love on my and let me love on you... or don't. and if you don't (since I am all there is apart from the little universe I created that you called home for 80 years) you will be alone in your sin for eternity...

so again, we have a choice... the light of love or the darkness of self worship that always leads to death... so we get to have fun in painful guilt for eternity off some shiitake that WE KNEW WAS WRONG while alive but we chose to ignore (the God shaped hole/inner voice of God)...

I guess it would be better if God said... ok guys, here is the Earth... rape, pillage, conquer, live for yourself, have fun, I'll pick you up in 75 years and you'll get to spent some time (eternity) with me even though you know jack shiitake about me or my nature... but enjoy the Cowboys game, the coke, and the hookers...