Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Great Post Nick...I would give you rep points for it but I can't, so I will give you praise here instead. Your debating skills are improving over time. You have changed my opinion about Fisher.

I have been on Fisher's case this year. He drives me insane by giving huge cushions in his coverage. Being out of position and not tackling when necessary are allowing the bigger plays to happen and the players that are giving up the big plays should get some of the criticism. Fisher's cushions are so obvious that everyone can see them, but he did not allow any big plays in the Chargers game.

The Chargers game was not won because they had a great passing day. It was won with LT and the running game. The D line, Spoon, and the safeties should take most the criticism.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Lack of coverage skills? When we brought him in and during training camp it seemed like his coverage skills were one of his best assets.

yes...it was self-evident in last weekends game...

witherspoon lacked coverage skills to contain or even run with LT in that game...which doesn't necessarily mean lack of any coverage skills, just that it was insufficient against one of the best RBs in this game...for varieties of reasons i'm certain...

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

And therein lies the problem. Brown allows a catch longer than anything Fisher allowed and whiffs on a tackle that allows a huge run. Both lead to scores totaling 10 points. Fan response? Complete silence. Will Witherspoon is the defender in coverage on three significant passing plays, all of which lead to scores totaling 21 points. Fan response? Complete silence. Travis Fisher is the defender in coverage on three consecutive plays totaling 38 yards on a drive that ends in a punt. Fan response? OMG TRAVIS FISHER IS SO HORRIBLE AND IS A LIABILITY TO THIS TEAM LET'S BENCH HIM RIGHT NOW HE SUCKS!!

I see what you're saying here, but let me play devil's advocate. You could argue that the 3 plays against Fisher didn't allow a TD, so they weren't that bad. On the other hand, suppose that he bats down or otherwise prevents those three passes. They punt from 38 yards further up field, and we get the ball on the 50 yardline instead of the 12 with over 2:00 remaining (since the clock stopped on each incompletion) instead of 1:07. There's a good chance we get some points out of that. Now we have no idea how that would have played out, but giving up 38 yards over the course of 3 consecutive plays is always a bad thing.

As for Brown: Yeah, he allowed a big play, but even then we didn't see him trailing several yards behind the receiver as we keep seeing with Fisher. And Brown did whiff on LT probably more than just that once. Maybe you could help me out, though...how many times did Fisher even get close enough to attempt a tackle when the runs went to the other side? I don't seem to recall him doing anything in run support. Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all.

You're right that Witherspoon et al. deserve a share of the responsibility for the loss. There is plenty of blame to go around when an opponent scores 31 points against your defense. I'm not going to lay this defeat at Fisher's feet, but I'm not going to pretend that his mistakes weren't evident. I think that people make an issue of it more so with him than some of the other players because (a) a corner's mistakes are more obvious because they are right there on the camera for everyone to see when the catch is made, and (b) because with Fisher it at least appears to be a trend related to how he plays rather than one poor performance. To many, this game merely validated concerns that were already growing. Yet again, he failed to defend a single pass. For the record, Fisher still has only 1 pass defended on the season. There are at least 19 corners who have averaged 1 PD or more per game so far. And I'm not saying that we should expect Fisher to be among the top 20 or so corners in the league, but that kind of gives you an idea of the disparity between their play and his.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Originally Posted by Nick

Let's say a guy goes out there and has 10 tackles, a sack, and an INT. That's a friggin great game. But let's say he also whiffs on a tackle and allows a 35-yard touchdown run. The overall picture is still a good day for him, but you can't just erase that mistake because of the good stuff he did. The mistake is there, and it needs to be addressed, regardless of how good a guy is or has been playing.

I agree 100%, and that doesn't conflict with what I was saying in my last post either. If you're right there to make the play and miss a tackle that's something you should *always* look to correct, no exceptions. The kind of mistakes I'm talking about that I can overlook *a little bit* from good players is a situation like this: a CB uses his instincts and turns for the ball a bit early, he's done that several times and gotten some nice interceptions and pass deflections out of it, only this time the ball isn't coming yet, so he loses a step and gets beat for a pass he could otherwise have defended (just one example could be a lot of different scenarios). The kind of mistakes resulting from taking a calculated risk (which has paid off a number of times before, otherwise don't even try), that's the kind of mistakes where I think you can give a guy a break since it may still on average be a good idea for him to play with his instincts and take a chance. Another example of this could be versus San Diego where Shawne Merriman looked at Incognito and jumped the snap to get a sack. He could have jumped early and it'd be a penalty, and in that case it would again be one of the mistakes I, as a fan or coach, would be more willing to overlook because I trust him to use his instincts. So I think there are some mistakes you can understand and defend a little bit, whereas there are other mistakes you need to correct 10/10 times.

Originally Posted by Nick

Travis Fisher is the defender in coverage on three consecutive plays totaling 38 yards on a drive that ends in a punt. Fan response? OMG TRAVIS FISHER IS SO HORRIBLE AND IS A LIABILITY TO THIS TEAM LET'S BENCH HIM RIGHT NOW HE SUCKS!!

I wouldn't really call that a good representation of the fan response to this game. Chiguy opened up this can of worms with "I don't get why Rams fans can't stand this guy, but the bottom line is this (...)" so it's not really a case of Fisher detractors jumping out to criticise him and giving the rest of the defense a pass after this game, it's pretty much the opposite. I wasn't going to single out any one player in partcular after this game since the entire defense had an awful day, but since a thread was opened in Fisher's defense I decided to comment on him in particular again.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Now we have no idea how that would have played out, but giving up 38 yards over the course of 3 consecutive plays is always a bad thing.

That's a fair point, but it's not quite as bad as giving up 51-yards on one play, though. Or 78 yards on three plays. All of which led to points, none of which were done by Fisher.

I'm not trying to say Fisher played great and doesn't deserve to be criticized for his mistakes. The first pass he gave up was a big mistake on his part because he got turned around completely on a deep out. I'll be the first one to step in line to point that one out.

But the point is that other players made much more costly mistakes yet garner virtually NO ATTENTION whatsoever while Fisher continues to get held to the fire.

Originally Posted by Goldenfleece

As for Brown: Yeah, he allowed a big play, but even then we didn't see him trailing several yards behind the receiver as we keep seeing with Fisher.

You're right, he wasn't several yards behind the receiver. Instead we saw him commit what should have been an illegal contact penalty and still allow the catch. That was hardly commendable coverage on Brown's part.

Originally Posted by Goldenfleece

And Brown did whiff on LT probably more than just that once. Maybe you could help me out, though...how many times did Fisher even get close enough to attempt a tackle when the runs went to the other side? I don't seem to recall him doing anything in run support. Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. The tackle Brown whiffed on wasn't going to the other side. LT was coming right for him and Brown whiffed. Therefore I don't exactly think it's fair to try and twist this into a criticism about how Fisher doesn't cross field to make tackles since after all, I don't believe Brown crossed field to make any solo tackles either. Furthermore, in coverage against Gates, Fisher brought him down solo all by himself. He not only tried, but he succeeded. That's more than some of our defenders could say about their attempts last weekend (*cough* OJ Atogwe *cough*).

Originally Posted by Goldenfleece

(a) a corner's mistakes are more obvious because they are right there on the camera for everyone to see when the catch is made

If a corner's mistakes are more obvious because he's right there on camera, how does Brown's 22-yard allowed reception and his whiff on LT go completely unnoticed by all but one person on this board?

It seems a corner's mistakes are more obvious, but only if that corner has a big #22 on his back. Otherwise, judging by the general lack of response Brown's mistakes received, they're not obvious at all.

Originally Posted by RamOfDenmark

Chiguy opened up this can of worms with "I don't get why Rams fans can't stand this guy, but the bottom line is this (...)" so it's not really a case of Fisher detractors jumping out to criticise him and giving the rest of the defense a pass after this game, it's pretty much the opposite. I wasn't going to single out any one player in partcular after this game since the entire defense had an awful day, but since a thread was opened in Fisher's defense I decided to comment on him in particular again.

I'm pretty sure this thread was created following the "Defense" thread in which multiple people did jump on Fisher. chiguy posted a response in that thread before starting this one, so to say he opened up this can of worms by starting this topic is inaccurate.

As for giving the rest of the defense a pass, I don't think anyone is giving them a pass. But they're certainly not singling out the other players that made even costlier mistakes, certainly no where near the degree at which Fisher is being criticized.

Again, the only person I saw even mention Fakhir Brown missing LT on his big 51-yard run was Mike Franke. No one else even touched it. The same goes with Witherspoon - tanus was the only person I saw actually bringing up his play.

I don't think any of us are naive enough to think that, had Fisher been the one to get beat on those players, people would have still somehow forgotten to mention them. All I'm asking for is balance. If Fisher gets toasted for missing tackles in the Arizona game - which he rightly should have and did - why does Fakhir Brown get no mention when he misses a huge tackle as well?

There's a clear double standard that, IMO, simply cannot be defended and should be corrected if people want to continue pointing fingers at individual players for mistakes.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

That's a fair point, but it's not quite as bad as giving up 51-yards on one play, though. Or 78 yards on three plays. All of which led to points, none of which were done by Fisher.

yes, others played as soft or worse than fisher, but the fact that rivers seemed to be targeting or picking on fisher was very evident on that drive. that may've been more salient than anything more substantial...

Originally Posted by Nick

...But the point is that other players made much more costly mistakes yet garner virtually NO ATTENTION whatsoever while Fisher continues to get held to the fire...

...I don't think any of us are naive enough to think that, had Fisher been the one to get beat on those players, people would have still somehow forgotten to mention them. All I'm asking for is balance. If Fisher gets toasted for missing tackles in the Arizona game - which he rightly should have and did - why does Fakhir Brown get no mention when he misses a huge tackle as well?

There's a clear double standard that, IMO, simply cannot be defended and should be corrected if people want to continue pointing fingers at individual players for mistakes.

i think hubison made a very good point in regards to this...

brown, chavous, coakley, witherspoon and atogwe did not play well at all but all of these guys are relatively new to the team and so we, the fan, haven't built up sufficient frustration with their play over a longer period...

on the other hand, fisher's been around on the rams team and up til 3 seasons ago he was highly regarded for his speed, agressiveness and tackling prowess, until he broke his arm making a tackle. he rarely made plays last season, in which he only played 8 games, and his tendency to play with a big cushion was evident then too. perhaps his groin injury is more of a factor than we think...

but what most of us fail to understand is that fisher may be the best option at that position, for now. it's obvious butler is not going to start anytime soon unless an injury occurs and hill may not be reliable enough for haslett to put him in his rookie season, especially considering we're still in contention for the division...

balance is all good but fans don't usually go out of their way to express their views/opinions objectively and rationally when their teams just lost...

i don't see any significant problem when fans just vent off toxic frustration... it's better than holding it in...remember, we're not trying to split the atom or deduct an axiom here...

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

I'm not sure I get your point. The tackle Brown whiffed on wasn't going to the other side. LT was coming right for him and Brown whiffed. Therefore I don't exactly think it's fair to try and twist this into a criticism about how Fisher doesn't cross field to make tackles since after all, I don't believe Brown crossed field to make any solo tackles either. Furthermore, in coverage against Gates, Fisher brought him down solo all by himself. He not only tried, but he succeeded. That's more than some of our defenders could say about their attempts last weekend (*cough* OJ Atogwe *cough*).

What I'm getting at is that when Brown is playing on the right and LT runs to his side, Brown manages to get past whomever was trying to block him and at least attempt to make the play. When Fish is on the left and LT runs to his side, Fisher isn't in position to even attempt that tackle. For example, on Tomlinson's first 38 yard TD run, as he turns upfield you can see him running right past Fisher, who can't get past #88's block. Parker had lined up in the slot, so Fish was lined up quite close to the path along the hash that LT took. Atogwe had a poor tackle attempt and was easily dealt with by a stiff arm, but Fish--like most the rest of the defense--wasn't even able to get close enough to attempt a tackle. That's what I'm talking about. Brown and Atogwe blew opportunities to stop long gains, and Chavous couldn't even bring down Michael Turner to prevent his TD run. Fisher was the only starter in the secondary not to whiff badly on the ball-carrier at some point during the game...because he never attempted a tackle in run support at all. In my book, that makes them all guilty.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Originally Posted by rampete

balance is all good but fans don't usually go out of their way to express their views/opinions objectively and rationally when their teams just lost...

The game was Sunday, and we're still having this debate on Wednesday. How long did the Travis Fisher thread carry on after the game that spawned it? I think we can rule out the Fisher negativity as simply being knee jerk reactions from game day by people simply upset about a loss. Clearly people don't like him for whatever reason, even though other players are making similar if not worse mistakes with little or no attention.

Originally Posted by Goldenfleece

Brown and Atogwe blew opportunities to stop long gains, and Chavous couldn't even bring down Michael Turner to prevent his TD run. Fisher was the only starter in the secondary not to whiff badly on the ball-carrier at some point during the game...because he never attempted a tackle in run support at all. In my book, that makes them all guilty.

I really hope you're not trying to suggest that Fisher's inability to break free from a block is as egregious a mistake as an unblocked defender completely missing an open field tackle to prevent a huge gain or score. Obviously Fisher needs to do a better job breaking free, but comparing that kind of mistake to something like Brown's whiff or OJ's two big missed tackles in open space is comparing apples to oranges. So I hope that's not what you're doing.

And again, you specifically mention run support but let's look elsewhere. Fisher was in position to make two tackles in pass coverage, one against Antonio Gates, and made both. Your post gives him no credit for this, yet he deserves it. Just as Brown deserves credit for that great fourth down tackle he made. The tackles Fisher did attempt in this game, he made. The same can't be said for the other players.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Originally Posted by Nick

The game was Sunday, and we're still having this debate on Wednesday. How long did the Travis Fisher thread carry on after the game that spawned it? I think we can rule out the Fisher negativity as simply being knee jerk reactions from game day by people simply upset about a loss. Clearly people don't like him for whatever reason, even though other players are making similar if not worse mistakes with little or no attention.

well, yes, the subject of fisher really started several weeks ago by individuals who expressed disdain for various subjective reasons. others exacerbated the issue by refuting their basis for the negative reactions...just two sides of the same coin, imo...

it really takes two to debate and any hotly debated issues can, and usually will, stay awhile...so, it's pointless to state a timetable for venting to reach a point for rationale...one can hope though...

i agree, it's definitely not just knee jerk rxn to a single poor performance...i believe i attempted to state one plausible reason why "people don't like him" based on hubison's post above...

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

I'm amused that I say, "Fisher is average" and almost everyone else seems intent on coming around to say "NO! He's below average!" We all agree he's not good enough to be a long term solution. I just don't see how anyone can say he's been horrible because he hasn't been -- I guarantee you someone will sign him if we don't.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

Originally Posted by Nick

chiguy posted a response in that thread before starting this one, so to say he opened up this can of worms by starting this topic is inaccurate.

Ok, now we may be down to arguing nuances that aren't really that interesting to the debate as a whole. But what I mean is very precisely: if chiguy had not started a thread specifically in Fisher's defense based on *this* game I don't think I or anyone else unhappy with Fisher's play would have started a thread criticising him for this game. Therefore the characterization that you gave where people on this board critical of Fisher were jumping out left and right to criticise Fisher after this game and giving everyone else a pass is the one that is inaccurate. As I see it there has been a lot of criticism aimed at Fisher, but most of it criticism of the entire season he's having, his last couple of seasons, or his entire career. And I think that's a fair criticism, singling him out and blaming him for the loss in this game, would not be, but I just don't see a lot of people doing that. So that's what I mean by "opened this can of worms", we had a good debate on Fisher in the other thread, focusing not on one particular game, but on his play in several games and in general. I don't think this debate has been as productive since most people's opinions haven't changed much because of the latest game.

And for the record, yes Witherspoon had what was his worst game as a Ram missing on several big plays, Atogwe couldn't tackle on a couple of plays and our pass rush was pretty much MIA, which along with horrible run defense from the entire defense (the biggest problem in this game) cost us dearly. I think just about anyone on the defense is open to heavy criticism based on this game. We could start a thread on any of those topics, the reason we're talking about Fisher is mostly that a new thread defending him was started, so people felt they had to get in here and defend their opinion from the other thread, at least that's what I think.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

i believe i attempted to state one plausible reason why "people don't like him" based on hubison's post above...

That certainly could be an accurate explanation, but is definitely not a reason to single out one person for a mistake that, when another makes it, is met with silence.

Originally Posted by UtterBlitz

Having another team sign him does not prove, or disprove, any current or potential talent.

I disagree. During the season you could make this point, because the pickins are slim in October and you don't have a lot of options. But after Fisher's contract is up, if he gets signed in the spring, I think that does in fact show that another team feels he has either current or potential talent. Let's not forget that signing a guy to an NFL contract means a team is willing to commit hundreds of thousands of dollars to him. I don't think you do that when you absolutely do not believe he has talent.

Originally Posted by RamOfDenmark

if chiguy had not started a thread specifically in Fisher's defense based on *this* game I don't think I or anyone else unhappy with Fisher's play would have started a thread criticising him for this game.

So now it's about whether or not they would have started a thread about him? Look, I already showed a thread with posts prior to the start of this thread that show multiple people jumping on Fisher because of his play. To try and say my claim that that happened is inaccurate strikes me as pretty strange, since I provided a link showing that it did. Did they start a thread about it? No, but I didn't realize starting a thread was the only time criticizing a guy actually counted.

You'll also notice, by the way, that the earlier thread was simply titled "Defense," which means anything could have been open to criticism, but the first person specifically pointed out was Fisher. So your claim that people are talking about Fisher now because a new thread was created about him is a bit inaccurate as well, considering this new thread was created to address people who were already talking about him in a broad thread meant to address the entire defense. People had a chance to acknowledge everyone, and their first target was Fisher. Let's not pretend chiguy's thread was the catalyst for all post-Chargers Fisher discussion. It clearly was not.

The other points that I made still sit on the table. I don't think anyone is giving everyone else on the defense a pass, but you're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to convince me any of them received the same amount of criticism Fisher has for this game. The comments about the rest of the defense are done in just that manner - the defense did this, the defense didn't do that. Nothing that even comes close to the individual attention Fisher gets after contests.

Furthermore, it's pretty clear based on past criticisms of Fisher that had he made the mistakes that guys like Witherspoon or Brown made, people would be on fire about it. You say that anyone on the defense is open to heavy criticism and we could start a thread on any of those topics, but not only did no one start a thread, no one except Franke even mentioned it at all. Thus, there's a huge double standard in who and how a player gets individually called out.

Re: The bottom line on Fisher

We live in a society where people like scapegoats. Is travis fisher going to be confused with champ bailey? Is he ever going to be a shutdown corner? No for sure on both counts.

Is he the cause of our problems on defense? No way.

Gentlemen and Ladies, our pass rush stinks. If we had a better corner than fisher, he would be on the field. None of us know more than the coaches. No one seems to want to criticize haslett despite how lousy our defense has been. Who did you think is coaching fisher to play as far off the ball as he does? Do you guys think that fisher is doing that on his own?

Can we upgrade at the position? Sure, thats why we drafted tye hill. Note that hill has not exactly been the second coming of neon deion when he has been on the field. I love the kid, but like all rookie corners, he is a work in progress.

Fisher is an average db. no better, no worse. If we dont get pressure on the passer, we are going nowhere fast and thats what we should be focusing on.