A good reason to take a few big hex's bouldering. Long slings/cord will ensure reaching the assailants' pips and keeping a safe distance from the blade.

Did they hold any of the okes at knife-point?? Just trying to understand how 3 defeat 9 (even with knives involved). Obviously no Highlands North Boys High old boys in the bouldering group.... knives melt under our stare!!

Of course people are going to want to go there, its a first class training venue slap bang in the middle of the city. It aint our fault there are evil people like this in society. The police should patrol this place properly given the amount of crime that has taken place there, but that is probably expecting a bit much.

Go in big groups, wear old clothes and shoes, leave all your valuables at home, run like hell if you hear rustling in the bushes!

There were 5 guys 4 girls in the group, 3 guys arrived with large knives and while its all good and well to say \"yeah we're hard core climbers we could F**** them up\" one of the group, maybe more would have ended up with large holes in their persons

me wrote:There were 5 guys 4 girls in the group, 3 guys arrived with large knives and while its all good and well to say "yeah we're hard core climbers we could F**** them up" one of the group, maybe more would have ended up with large holes in their persons

fair enough... safety first anyway... cell phones, wallets , cash can be replaced. Very hard to replace large amounts of blood quickly.

It begs the question then what does one due? with virtually no help from the authorities attacks will continue to happen to people hiking and climbing in and around these areas. People are seen as soft targets, for retreat is very difficult in isolated areas. I mean how will the gang in the kirstenbosch area ever be caught, for by the time park officers are called to the seen, the thieves are long gone.

ATC wrote:It begs the question then what does one due? with virtually no help from the authorities attacks will continue to happen to people hiking and climbing in and around these areas. People are seen as soft targets, for retreat is very difficult in isolated areas. I mean how will the gang in the kirstenbosch area ever be caught, for by the time park officers are called to the seen, the thieves are long gone.

solution to sa'a crime is to double the police force by bringing the army in full force and train them in policing. then bring back the death penalty, build some extra massive prisons [perhaps by reclaiming squatted in derelict buildings] and bring in a \"three strikes\" law. 3 strikes, prison for life. You murder someone, death penalty. make the prisons for the life sentence persons like hell on earth. then move the normal offence prisons to levels.

level 1: First time offenders. A strong emphasis on rehabilitation through learning and skills development programs.

level 2: second time offenders. A good taste of what's to come but also with a strong rehab program.

level 3: final warning. a similar treatment to the \"hell on earth\" phase. A final warning.

if the criminals have no reason to stop doing crime then they wont. I do not agree with the kangaroo courts system as when people try and take the law into their own hands it is as bad as doing the crime yourself. we HAVE a justice system that we PAY for. it must be jacked up and enforced.

There's one problem with this, it goes against the constitution! 'Everyone has the right to life' Is right up there on the bill.

Judging by the way the ANC criminals are treated in prison; massive send off's, luxury life while briefly inside, and then a hero's welcome upon release, the chances of realistic punishment for crime being instituted looks remote.

Just an example, three years back we had all of our camping gear ripped off from a Mountain Club hut whilst out cranking. Thankfully we were covered through a buddie's mountain guiding company, most average joes will not have the luxury of such comprehensive insurance. The perp was caught, the court cases dragged on for over a year requiring my poor buddy to travel 50km each way every time (a huge cost in time and loss of earning with each day). Eventually he was found guilty but because he was from 'a disadvantaged background' he was only fined R600 and set free. The gear alone was worth over R8000 not to mention the cost to my buddie's business and the cost to the state with all the court dates. Hardly equitable retribution especially considering this guy had been operating in the area for a long time and had hit several homesteads some more than once.

Jah the harsh reality of life in SA! The only answer is to double the existing police force. I cannot believe violent retaliation is any answer, neither is calling the army as this smacks way too much of the 1980's state of emergency crack downs which acheived little more than bring our country to the brink of open civil war. Its high (past) time for the government to pull their head out their arses, quit publishing bogus stats that try to con us there has been a decrease in crime, and do something f-ing constructive about this. Crime is ruining our nation's prospects for a viable and properous future!

guest wrote: I do not agree with the kangaroo courts system as when people try and take the law into their own hands it is as bad as doing the crime yourself.

If a citizen catches a skabenga in the act, apprehends him (in whichever way possible), and hands him to the law, I feel that's perfectly acceptable.... unless the concept of 'citizen's arrest has been disbanded. If said skabenga has a deadly weapon on his person, and it takes more than one citizen to apprehend him with necessary force and a little violence, what's the problem?

"Oooh look that nasty fellow with a knive is taking our stuff! There are enough of us here to deal with him effectively, but that would be as bad as being criminals ourselves, so let's just let him get away with it for moral's sake" Doesn't make sense to me.

guest wrote: we HAVE a justice system that we PAY for. it must be jacked up and enforced.

Agreed... Yes we do pay for the so-called justice system we have, but what can WE do about it, directly, to make it more effective??

Grigri wrote:Jah the harsh reality of life in SA! The only answer is to double the existing police force. I cannot believe violent retaliation is any answer, neither is calling the army as this smacks way too much of the 1980's state of emergency crack downs which acheived little more than bring our country to the brink of open civil war. Its high (past) time for the government to pull their head out their arses, quit publishing bogus stats that try to con us there has been a decrease in crime, and do something f-ing constructive about this. Crime is ruining our nation's prospects for a viable and properous future!

Again, agreed! But....what can WE do about it directly, other than taking the law just slightly into own hands? If the better portion of the entire educated population, who are being hijacked, burgled, raped and murdered, cannot convince the government to up it's justice ante, how does a tiny percentage of the population, that is the climbing community, make it's voice heard??

Other than taking our own action, or just keeping quiet and letting the buggers get away with their thieving crap time and time again, there don't seem to be many other choices.

A while back my girlfriend bought a cheap second hand car, cash. (admittedly, it was bought from an unsavoury character). Within a few days it gave her problems, and she took it back to the seller to get sorted out. He then decided to sell it to someone else....after having already been paid for it by my gf.

She went to the police, and since it was a \"civil\" matter, and the amount involved was to high for it to be taken to the small claims court, they suggested that - and get this - she personally arrange to take her car back by force!

Hmmm, clear indication here that the government wants us to take the law into our own hands.

ahh come on Jono, youre trying to make it government's problem because your gf did a dodgy deal. You should have properly checked out the car first, before you paid money. Get a mechanic to overview it, whatever. Why should the government do anything. You agreed to pay for what you saw and it turned out to be a bad decision.

Jono, you keep asking, what can WE do directly. obviously, NOTHING!!! but you are saying to take the law into your own hands. I dont care how bad you think things are, we cannot build a strong society without laws and enforcement, but in the same breath, we cant expect to rise if we stoop to the same levels of violence. To answer your question:

\"Oooh look that nasty fellow with a knive is taking our stuff! There are enough of us here to deal with him effectively, but that would be as bad as being criminals ourselves, so let's just let him get away with it for moral's sake\" Doesn't make sense to me.

YES! you do that. One knife stab could be the end. You telling me you're so cheap that you' risk your own life for a bag? Come on man! If you live here in SA then you need to have good insurance. I take my camera and phone and whatever else I feel like having. If the dude takes it, I get another one. Stop being a hero and asking rhetorical questions. GriGri's the only one talking sense here. Obviously Marshall will say his big man thing...oooh I'll bliksem the oke, or blow his brains out...but get real man.

neither is calling the army as this smacks way too much of the 1980's state of emergency crack downs which acheived little more than bring our country to the brink of open civil war

Umm, no it's not the 80s dude. That was a very different time. That was the country trying to work against the people [unless you're some ignorant right wing afrikaaner who believes that you got done wrong, if so, please hurry up and die].This is the country trying to work FOR the people. The defense force should do just that, DEFEND the citizens.

Skabenga

is this YOUR word for criminal? I'm hoping it's not a racial poke or anything. If you had a brain you'd know that most crime here in SA eventually works its way up to white collar crime. Car syndicates are often owned by foreigners.

There is something we can do!! If you are the victim of a crime, any crime no matter how small (smashed car window etc.) report it to the police. Now the police are overworked and understaffed and probably going to try and avoid opening a docket, dont let them! Insist they open a case. This very important, yes it means more of them doing paperwork instead of out there doing the dirty work - tough!

It is absolutely vital every single crime is recorded so the crime statistics reflect an accurate picture of whats going on. The government love quoting skewed statistics to 'prove' that crime is on the decrease (see tonights Cape Argus newspaper). Its a lie!!! If the figures show the real deal they will be forced to act on the problem. Again dont let the police discourage you from opening a docket!

The attitude that crime is everywhere, and the police dont help, so lets not go there, and there, and there... is nonsense. If we continue in this vein our world will continue to shrink until we are too scared to leave our houses and the only climbing we get done is on the garage woody! We have a right to climb outdoors at inner city spots like the wilds and to do it safely! Police forces were invented for the protection of the average citizen, its about time ours received the backing it needs to do its job efficiently.

Guest; my concern over the army is that our civil liberties will be even further restricted by measures they might impose. I fully realise the situation is different but I worry about where its all going if thats the only option left to us! Martial law? - no thanks!

GriGri, I couldnt agree more. Crime stats dont reflect the true nature of what, where and where crimes are happening.

Clearly the police are not coping at all, which is why certain divisions need to be set up specially. We have the Scorpions to deal with corporate crime, now we need guys on the streets. I couldnt think of a better person to deal with armed criminals than soldiers. I am against violence in general, however, in a case such as this we need to use harsh measures and force to gain control again. How many MORE brilliant minds need to escape SA before things work out? The government is just not willing to take it seriously and call it a state of emergency. This is just ignorant. We have the biggest event on the planet being hosted here soon and this is partly to blame for the doctored crime stats. Do you think the politicians dont know about the crime? of course they do! FIFA will do a review next year on the situation here re crime, transport, accommodation, stadiums, comms services and this will decide if it is to happen here or not. It's not often that FIFA have needed to have this policy of 'back-up' plans for the WC. 4 billion people will watch us make it or break it.

So, crime needs to be sorted out NOW! There is no other time than now. With SA the way it is, the criminals will have a field day and the whole world will just go to Thailand to climb instead.

It has already come to a point where we dont even rely on our police anymore which is why we need armed response services. Its fine to live here if you afford to. For the poor people who ONLY rely on social services like clinics, public schools and SAP service, it must be a frightening place to be. The crime within the townships is unbelievable.

guest wrote:ahh come on Jono, youre trying to make it government's problem because your gf did a dodgy deal. You should have properly checked out the car first, before you paid money. Get a mechanic to overview it, whatever. Why should the government do anything. You agreed to pay for what you saw and it turned out to be a bad decision.

Jono, you keep asking, what can WE do directly. obviously, NOTHING!!! but you are saying to take the law into your own hands. I dont care how bad you think things are, we cannot build a strong society without laws and enforcement, but in the same breath, we cant expect to rise if we stoop to the same levels of violence. To answer your question:

"Oooh look ...... Doesn't make sense to me.

YES! you do that. One knife stab could be the end. You telling me you're so cheap that you' risk your own life for a bag? Come on man! If you live here in SA then you need to have good insurance. I take my camera and phone and whatever else I feel like having. If the dude takes it, I get another one. Stop being a hero and asking rhetorical questions. GriGri's the only one talking sense here. Obviously Marshall will say his big man thing...oooh I'll bliksem the oke, or blow his brains out...but get real man.

Skabenga

is this YOUR word for criminal? I'm hoping it's not a racial poke or anything. If you had a brain you'd know that most crime here in SA eventually works its way up to white collar crime. Car syndicates are often owned by foreigners.

Bro', I'm not suggesting launching a vigilante campaign to irradicate crime all over the country, but if three pensioners walking in Newlands Forest can beat off knive wielding thugs with their graphite walking sticks, then hey I'm sure as hell not going stand by and watch my stuff be taken from me, if there's a chance I can prevent it. Protecting one's own property.... has been done since before we started hopping out of the trees and walking upright. Got nothing to do with being a hero, got everything to do with me not wanting someone to take my belongings. I reckon I'm sharp enough to know when the situation is just too dodgy....if my life is seriously at stake, then cool, have my stuff.

....re the gf's car story. If you read properly you'll see the point of the story isn't her ignorance in the auto trade, but the fact that someone she paid money to for something took her money and then sold said-something to someone else.... thus thieving her money. Crime. The police told her to retrieve her car on her own, with force if necessary. No assistance from them.

... re the 'Skabenga' thing. No it's not my word for a criminal. It's a colloquial term, originally from Zim, for 'thief', 'liar', or 'general miscreant'.....don't see race issues coming in there. The only colour issue here is the fact that it's a slightly more colourful, and call it light-hearted, way of saying "that f**'ng d**$ who's thieving my goods" The Italian mobsters are skabengas, the Nazi top brass were skabengas, the wealthy Sandton poker champ with an ace up his sleeve is a skabenga, the bugger from Kuilsriver who stole the gf's money is a skabenga, and damn, you can be a bloody skabenga at times! See, no race issues here.

Think there’s merit in both approaches. Firstly the police are understaffed, complacent and inefficient. No-one wins if a state of emergency is declared and martial law implemented…bye-bye democracy…hello Zimbabwe.

On the other hand having various groups of vigilantes, sounds too much like PAGAD. Who controls these groups and who rules governing right or wrong, do they use (i.e. what I believe is correct may not be correct to you).

It seems a compromise is needed… Stricter and certainly a large police force. I agree that harsher punishments should be handed down, but re-instating the death penalty is near impossible considering the protections under the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. Likewise, criminals, or rather inmates, are protected as believe it or not a minority group and therefore may not be discriminated against. Wouldn’t it be great if sentences of manual labour were handed down? We could do with the cost saving leading up to the world cup…

You have to decide for yourself. If you lie down every time someone attacks you, you’re allowing yourself to be a victim. You have a right to defend yourself and your possessions. On the other hand if you have dependants, you have a responsibility to your family to be carefully, and while climbing may be safe defending yourself against a knife is like playing Russian Roulette. ,

For me? I’ve decided that the current spate of attacks are bullsh#t and as a result have invested in an “unassuming” defense against a knife (gun is a little different) which I carry on any walks / hikes. It is a personal decision but if people stop allowing themselves to be easy targets, perhaps the criminals will look elsewhere. If we keep lying down how long before one of our female friends is raped by these guys…?

While in Boven I spoke to one of the officers watching over the Coven and asked about severely hurting a mugger in the process of defending oneself. His reaction was he wished this happened more often…they’d lose interest.

Jono-Im not sure you understand what sa criminals are all about. We have people in this country that would probably kill you for ten cents in your pocket. Thinking that you will know when a situation becomes too dodgy is naive, the problem is you just dont. You could be walking oneday and it just happens in an instant. Trying to retaliate or interfer with a criminal once he has already engaged you often leads to someone getting killed or seriously injured. Your life is worth more than any trad rack or set of draws you may have in your bag.

Last week in the Sandton Chronicle there was an article about a guy who through his initiatives has got the funding together to put up a fence (or palisade) around the whole of the wilds BUT now he is having problems with City of Johannesburg (COJ) because he has organised walks through the Wilds.

Apparently he has not stood in the queue for 2 hrs to get the forms, only to find out that they don't have the forms, to come back a week later to stand again in the queue for 2 hrs, to find out he does not have his ID book with him to get the forms, etc, before finally submitting them in triplicate to Pretoria, CT and JHB Cities simultaneously, DEAT, WWF, EWT etc only to find out he has written in blue pen and must get new forms and submit them in black ink etc.

It is strange however that the criminals who operate and earn a good income in the area have never applied to the COJ for the relevant forms. Nor do I suspect have they ever called SARS and waited in the queing system to get a tax number or submitted their tax returns let alone paid tax, but I am sure Trevor is having some sleepless nights about that, so we shouldn't worry.

But seriously, there was an actual story reported about this guy having troubles with the authories for running organised walks. They didn't say whether he was doing them commercially, but it sounded like some resident putting in a whole lot of work to reclaim the Wilds and actually use the place.

The first article Justin mentions deals more with peace keeping than actual policing. I think its worth drawing a distinction between armed forces keeping the peace in an area wracked with violent conflict and a police force trying to enforce law and order in a crime wracked society. Although the situation in Berea / Hillbrow is bad, it has not reached the stage of rival gangs blowing buildings up with bombs and drive by shootings happening all the time. Such a situation would definitely warrant a state of emergency and the deployment of troops into the trouble zone.

What we are experiencing is the phase before such chaos, where crime is escalating and the control of conventional police is inadequate to cope with the situation. However its not bad enough yet to warrant martial law (perhaps unfortunately so!).

What to do? Maybe backing up police with small armed units under the command of the police. Curfews and regular raids in known crime areas. These tactics have already been employed before in that area with some success, perhaps its time for more of the same on an ongoing basis.

Rolands story is really sad, and at the same time inspirational. Its good to hear that there are people who refuse to lie down and roll over and are using their initiative to turn a situation around for the benefit of all. If these people profit from these intiatives then good for them. Provided their main motivation is to improve things and is not simply for profit, Im all for it. The government departments that gave this guy the run around should seriously wake up! People like him should be given red carpet treatment, not messed around! Whoever this guy is: dont give up! keep pushing!

Dav wrote:You have to decide for yourself. If you lie down every time someone attacks you, you’re allowing yourself to be a victim. You have a right to defend yourself and your possessions. On the other hand if you have dependants, you have a responsibility to your family to be carefully, and while climbing may be safe defending yourself against a knife is like playing Russian Roulette. ,

Precisely. It's the fight or flight resonse. As climbers we make these types of decisions regularly and pretty much instantly. "Do I risk wasting time and energy placing a manky marginal runner, or do I risk run it out?" It all depends on the immediate circumstance. Apart from Shoalin Monks, climbers probably have the fastest fight or flight reaction time on the planet.

ATC wrote:Jono-Im not sure you understand what sa criminals are all about. We have people in this country that would probably kill you for ten cents in your pocket. Thinking that you will know when a situation becomes too dodgy is naive, the problem is you just dont. You could be walking oneday and it just happens in an instant. Trying to retaliate or interfer with a criminal once he has already engaged you often leads to someone getting killed or seriously injured. Your life is worth more than any trad rack or set of draws you may have in your bag.

Dude I know all about criminals in SA, I grew up pretty much on the Yeoville Hillbrow border. It's all about awareness of your surroundings. Keep an eye out when walking (and when at the crag).

It's like diving in lurky territory. If you spot the shark, there's a good chance he's noticed you spotting him, and will be on his merry way. When you do get chomped, it's because you've just not seen it coming.

Obviously if someone is lurking in the bushes and jumps out at you unexpectedly, you don't have many options at your disposal...... but, once said lurker has kindly asked for my stuff with some subtle knive-blade persuasion, and heads off down the path with his loot.....I'm not going to sit snivelling, I'm going to grab the biggest rock I can find and lob it directly at his retreating head. If I miss, well at least I tried. If it's a hit, I may get my stuff back without much of a fuss, or may have to take some more action against a bloody-headed-dazed-bloke stumbling towards me in an angry confused stupor. If the situation then seems like I'd end up in the loser's seat, I'll run...... like hell!! If you try to be as aware as possible and spot some danger heading up or down the path, well then you have enough time to take evasive action.

If I had a family and kids to consider, my decisions would undoubtedly be affected. All depends on circumstance.

I could also get all esoteric and say that we all create every situation that occurs in our lives, and that positive thinking alone will be to prevent a mugging or theft from even considering to occur..... but that's a discussion for another website entirely.

Hey Jono. The reason I said it was unassuming was because it doesn’t look threatening, fits comfortably in my pocket. You remember the old Gestapo Batons? Once you’ve opened it (simple flick open), it’s a very nasty item, the equivalent of carrying a 50cm steel pole.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not out there looking for trouble, but like I said before I have no intention of allowing myself to be a victim.
And before anyone thinks I’m going over-board the same “batons” are issued to the guards that patrol on CNC property.

Hey Dave. Sounds good. A can of mace or pepper spray is also probably a good idea. I'm with you there....not looking for trouble, but if trouble looks for me, I'd like to have the opportunity to give it some trouble back.

It's a sad but undeniable fact that we do have to look out for ourselves out there. Back in the pioneering days everyone had to carry some sort of protection against the wildlife. Now that all the wildlife is kept out of sight in sanitized sancturies, we still have to carry some form of protection against the wild-lowlife.

what ever guest. Just can't work out how you got from some extreme coments made partly in jest...to \"Obviously Marshall will say his big man thing...oooh I'll bliksem the oke, or blow his brains out...but get real man.\"...

Crime/mugging although planned, is often opportunistic. Reduce the opportunity for becoming a victim as much as posible by taking reasonable steps. And look for opportunities to defend your self & dish out justice. What more can we do? Except guest about.