2909
1
2 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION
3
4 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT
5 Volume 12
6
7 Including List of Participants
8
9
10
11 Hearing
12
13 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project
14
15 Presiding:
16 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair
17 Kathi Kinew
18 Harvey Nepinak
19 Robert Mayer
20 Terry Sargeant
21
22 Monday, March 22, 2004
23 St. Lawrence Hall
24 Thompson, Manitoba
25
2910
1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
2
3 Clean Environment Commission:
4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman
5 Terry Sargeant Member
6 Harvey Nepinak Member
7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member
8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission
9 Rory Grewar Staff
10 CEC Advisors:
11 Mel Falk
12 Dave Farlinger
13 Jack Scriven
14 Jim Sandison
15 Jean McClellan
16 Brent McLean
17 Kyla Gibson
18
19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation:
20 Chief Jerry Primrose
21 Elvis Thomas
22 Campbell MacInnes
23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux
24
25
2911
1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
2
3 Manitoba Conservation:
4 Larry Strachan
5
6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN:
7 Doug Bedford, Counsel
8 Bob Adkins, Counsel
9 Marvin Shaffer
10 Ed Wojczynski
11 Ken Adams
12 Carolyn Wray
13 Ron Mazur
14 Lloyd Kuczek
15 Cam Osler
16 Stuart Davies
17 David Hicks
18 Elizabeth Hicks
19 George Rempel
20 David Cormie
21 Alex Fleming
22 Marvin Shaffer
23 Blair McMahon
24
25
2912
1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
2
3
4
5 Presenters:
6 Bob Wall - Thompson Chamber of Commerce
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2913
1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS
2
3 Number Page
4
5 OTH 1004: Thompson Chamber of
6 Commerce presentation to the
7 Manitoba Clean Environment
8 Commission Wuskwatim Generation
9 and Transmission Project 3064
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2914
1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS
2
3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE
4
5
6
7
8 NO UNDERTAKINGS GIVEN
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2915
1 MONDAY, MARCH 22, 2004
2 Upon commencing at 1:06 p.m.
3
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Ladies and
5 gentlemen, we shall begin. And as we have in other
6 instances, I will call upon Elder Sam Dysart to come
7 and launch the afternoon with a prayer.
8 MR. DYSART: Thank you. I'm very glad to be
9 here and I see a lot of familiar faces from back
10 home. I hope we have a good meeting today and going
11 on forward to the next day and to The Pas. Thank
12 you. Let us pray. You can pray with me in your own
13 language. God bless you and may God heal you.
14
15 (PRAYER)
16
17 THE CHAIRMAN: If you, for a moment, just stay
18 in the same frame of mind, I will read a little poem
19 which is also a prayer which I read today in the
20 Grassroots News of March 10th. It's called "Oh Great
21 Spirit."
22 "Oh Great Spirit of our ancestors, I
23 raise my pipe to you, to your
24 messengers, the four winds, and to
25 Mother Earth who provides for your
2916
1 children. Give us the wisdom to teach
2 our children to love, to respect and
3 to be kind to each other so that they
4 may grow with peace in mind. Let us
5 learn to share all good things that
6 you provide for us on this earth."
7 And it was written by Brian Norman.
8 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We
9 appreciate this opportunity, and when I say we, I'm
10 referring to the Clean Environment Commission, to
11 meet with you in Thompson. This community, along
12 with the community of Nelson House, are the two
13 closest communities to the proposed projects and
14 therefore, the two communities will be most directly
15 affected for good, we hope, and will also experience
16 the not so good effects if there are any which will
17 result from this project which is being proposed by
18 Manitoba Hydro and Nisichawayasihk.
19 I wish to thank you for your presence here
20 today in such large numbers. And I thank you in
21 advance for the contribution you will bring to this
22 process. So that we, as commissioners, may be better
23 able to understand the projects that are being
24 proposed so that we can also get a better grasp of
25 your views and hopefully you will be better
2917
1 understanding as well. And of course we are looking
2 forward to all enlightenment that we can derive from
3 this process so that we may make wise recommendations
4 to the Minister, decisions that will go towards the
5 betterment of First Nations of Manitoba and all
6 people of Manitoba.
7 My name is Gerard Lecuyer. I am a member of
8 the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission and the
9 Panel Chairperson for the Commission's Wuskwatim
10 Generation and Transmission Projects review.
11 With me today are four other Commissioners
12 serving on this Panel, Ms. Kathi Avery Kinew, Mr.
13 Robert Mayer, Mr. Terry Sargeant, Mr. Harvey Nepinak
14 at the end of the table. Mr. Sargeant here, as you
15 may have heard, has been recently appointed as the
16 new Chairperson of the Clean Environment Commission.
17 And in addition to the Panel today, I would
18 like to introduce the staff and advisors who are
19 assisting us with this review including the Secretary
20 of the Commission Mr. Rory Grewar over there. And if
21 you have any technical questions, you may ask Mr.
22 Grewar. And as well, the Commission Administrative
23 Secretary, Ms. Joyce Mueller who I presume is at the
24 table in the back.
25 The Commission Counsel, Mr. Doug Abra of the
2918
1 firm Hill Abra and Dewar. And from the technical
2 advisory team as well Ms. Jean McLellan. I think
3 she's in the back here from Price Waterhouse Coopers.
4 Mr. Dave Farlinger in the back as well from Energy
5 Consultants International and Mr. Mel Falk from Falk
6 Environmental.
7 Before continuing, I would like to explain
8 that the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission is an
9 arm's length provincial agency that encourages and
10 facilitates public involvement in environmental
11 matters and offers advice and recommendations to
12 government.
13 The Commission exercises its mandate through
14 public hearings, investigations, mediation and
15 education. You can refer to our website at
16 www.manitobacec.ca for information about the
17 Commission and this public hearing.
18 The Commission operates under the authority of
19 Manitoba's Environmental Act. It is also directed by
20 procedural guidelines to ensure that the hearings
21 remain fair and open forums for the exchange of
22 information and ideas and that they provide full
23 opportunity for public involvement in the
24 environmental assessment process in Manitoba.
25 We are here today at the request of the
2919
1 Minister of Conservation to conduct an integrated
2 public hearing respecting the Manitoba Hydro and
3 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation proposal for the
4 development of the Wuskwatim Generation Station and
5 associated transmission facilities.
6 The Commission was mandated to conduct a
7 hearing to consider, firstly, the justification, need
8 for and alternatives to the Wuskwatim proposals. And
9 secondly, the potential environmental socioeconomic
10 and cultural effects of the construction and
11 operation of the Wuskwatim proposals.
12 The Commission was requested to conduct the
13 hearing in general accordance with the process
14 guidelines respecting public hearings which include
15 procedures for prehearing meetings or conferences and
16 for proprietary information.
17 Following the public hearing, the Commission
18 shall provide a report to the Minister of
19 Conservation in accordance with Section 7 subsection
20 3 of the Environment Act.
21 The hearing here in Thompson will go on till
22 five o'clock this afternoon at which time we will
23 adjourn for dinner and then we will reconvene at
24 seven o'clock and will go on in the evening until the
25 registered presenters get an opportunity to make
2920
1 their presentations. And we will reconvene tomorrow
2 morning at nine and we will adjourn hopefully around
3 five o'clock.
4 The Commission has already held hearings in
5 Winnipeg during the last three weeks. And following
6 the hearings here, the Commission will move on to The
7 Pas to hear presentation on the 25th and 26th in The
8 Pas. And then we'll reconvene back in Winnipeg on
9 the 6th, 7th and 8th of April and following that, if
10 necessary.
11 We begin today with opening remarks by Mr.
12 Larry Strachan of the Manitoba Conservation on the
13 environmental assessment and review process
14 undertaken to date and the licensing process to
15 follow the public hearing.
16 The co-proponents, Manitoba Hydro and NCN,
17 will then give a presentation on their Need For and
18 Alternatives To the Wuskwatim Generation and
19 Transmission Projects and the Environmental Impact
20 Statement for the projects.
21 Once they have completed their presentation,
22 all or any of you who wish may ask questions of the
23 proponents. The proponents, when we talk of the
24 proponents we always talk of Manitoba Hydro and NCN
25 so that you may obtain clarification or get a better
2921
1 understanding of aspects of the projects or so that
2 you may respond to some of the things you have heard.
3 Once the process of questioning the proponents
4 has been completed, those who wish may make a
5 presentation. Some of the people have already
6 registered with Ms. Mueller in the back or with Mr.
7 Grewar indicating that they wish to make
8 presentations, to express views and opinions. And we
9 welcome those presentations. That is how we get to
10 understand how you perceive the projects on which you
11 will be receiving explanations.
12 So all of you, in good time will get this
13 opportunity to speak to the Commission. Many people
14 have made presentations when we were going through
15 the hearing in Winnipeg. And we hope that the people
16 of Thompson area will also come forth and make their
17 presentation. As I said already, to make
18 presentations, all you have to do is indicate to Ms.
19 Mueller in the back or to Mr. Grewar that you wish to
20 make a presentation.
21 When you do come forth to address questions to
22 the proponents or to make presentation, we ask you to
23 speak in the mike. A mike will be set up here. And
24 when you do, please identify yourself and you will be
25 sworn in. No, you will not be sworn in to make
2922
1 questions but you will be when you make
2 presentations. Mr. Grewar will do that.
3 I think that about covers what I have to say
4 at this time except maybe if you wish a written copy
5 of the materials that will be recorded, everything
6 that is stated here will be recorded, you will see
7 there's a court reporter there and everything gets
8 written up and you can get copies of that by
9 contacting the reporters, I gather. Or if you want
10 some of the information, you can also access their
11 website which is www.reidreporting.com, Reid spelled
12 R-E-I-D. You can also make arrangements to obtain
13 transcripts or to purchase copies of transcripts in
14 various formats. The number that you have to call is
15 in Winnipeg, 947-9774.
16 At the conclusion of all the hearings when
17 everything is completed, the Commission will prepare
18 a report and that report will be presented to the
19 Minister of Conservation.
20 That is all I have to say at this time and
21 I'll call upon Mr. Strachan to make his presentation.
22 Mr. Grewar, do you have comments?
23 MR. GREWAR: No, Mr. Chairman. As Mr.
24 Strachan is moving towards the front of the room, I
25 was just going to mention there are about half a
2923
1 dozen maybe 10 additional chairs up front here for
2 anyone in the back. There are chairs here. And at
3 the break, we will also try and secure some
4 additional chairs but there are about 10 chairs here
5 at the front if anyone wants to come forward so they
6 are not standing.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I see many chairs here
8 empty. All right. I presume those who are still
9 standing choose to do so.
10 Mr. Strachan.
11 MR. STRACHAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good
12 afternoon, panel members, proponents, participants,
13 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Larry Strachan.
14 I'm the director of the Environmental Approvals
15 Branch for Manitoba Conservation out of Winnipeg.
16 And I'm here this afternoon to share with you, very
17 briefly, an overview of the Environmental Assessment
18 Process that we have undertaken on the proposed
19 Wuskwatim projects.
20 There are two projects under review, a
21 generating station project and a transmission line
22 project. There are Manitoba Environment Act licenses
23 required for the projects and also there's a federal
24 comprehensive study review and approval that is
25 required for the generation project.
2924
1 Because of the two provincial and federal
2 approvals, we decided to undertake a cooperative
3 environmental review process and this was pursuant to
4 an agreement that we have with Canada which outlines
5 the steps taken for a cooperative process. The
6 process is administered by a project administration
7 team chaired by myself and consisting of both federal
8 and provincial representatives. And the team, as I
9 indicated, is chaired by myself.
10 We use the Manitoba Environment Act process to
11 generate the necessary information and we recognize
12 that this public hearing is an important step of the
13 environmental assessment and licensing process to get
14 public information on the proposals under review.
15 The information that we generate through the process
16 must satisfy the legal requirements of both the
17 Manitoba Environment Act and the Federal Canadian
18 Environmental Assessment Act.
19 The proposals under review were filed for
20 formal review in December of 2001. And to assist the
21 proponents in preparing the environmental assessment
22 for the projects, we developed a set of Environmental
23 Impact Statement guidelines through a consultation
24 process led by this Clean Environment Commission.
25 And those guidelines were finalized in April of 2002.
2925
1 The Environmental Impact Statements, in
2 accordance with the guidelines, were submitted in
3 April of 2003. And then we subjected the
4 Environmental Impact Statements to a public and
5 technical review to determine whether or not the
6 information was satisfactory. To assist some
7 participants, we also established the Participant
8 Assistance Program which is a funding program under
9 the Manitoba Environment Act which allows funding to
10 be awarded to those people that apply for it to
11 participate fully in the public hearing process.
12 As a result of the review of the information,
13 two supplementary filings were required and there was
14 more specific information required for our federal
15 colleagues, Federal Fisheries and Oceans.
16 As a result of the review, our review, we
17 determined in October 2003 that the Environmental
18 Impact Statements and the supplementary filings
19 satisfied the intent and scope of the Environmental
20 Assessment Guidelines and that they were sufficient
21 to proceed to this public hearing process.
22 As I indicated earlier, the advice from this
23 public hearing process is an important component of
24 the Manitoba Environment Act assessment process. And
25 we will be considering that advice very carefully
2926
1 once this hearing process is completed.
2 Thank you. That's a brief overview of the
3 assessment process.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Strachan. I now
5 call upon the proponents, those who will be making
6 the presentation of the project.
7 MR. PRIMROSE: Good afternoon.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon.
9 MR. PRIMROSE: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.
10 Good afternoon to all the people that are here today.
11 My name is Jerry Primrose, Chief of the
12 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. I would like to thank
13 you and the Commissioners and also all other
14 participants for this opportunity to speak again
15 about the Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission
16 Projects.
17 Thompson is in our traditional territory and
18 has been for over 7,500 years. The Nisichawayasihk
19 Cree Nation is committed to the economy of the city
20 and to the north. Thompson is the hub of Northern
21 Manitoba and a vital importance to our community. It
22 is where many of our members live and many of our
23 young people attend high school, college and
24 university.
25 We believe Thompson will benefit from the
2927
1 development of the Wuskwatim Generation and
2 Transmission Projects through new business
3 development and the overall investment in
4 infrastructure and economic diversification.
5 As a potential part owner of the generation
6 project, our First Nation will be able to support the
7 economy of the City of Thompson and the region. We
8 can help broaden Thompson economy and make it less --
9 pardon me, more diverse. Already, we are seeing
10 economic diversity and investment in Thompson and I'm
11 proud to say our First Nation has been a part of
12 that.
13 In 1998, NCN purchased the Mystery Lake Motor
14 Hotel here in Thompson. We did this with the funds
15 generated by the NCN trust established as part of the
16 compensation we negotiated in 1998, or pardon me,
17 1996 as part of the Northern Flood Implementation
18 Agreement. This has been a successful investment for
19 us and we will continue to make prudent investments
20 here in the future.
21 Developing a brighter future for our people is
22 a primary goal of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation.
23 And we will continue to focus on that goal despite
24 the criticisms we have heard at this hearing over the
25 past three weeks.
2928
1 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, during the course
2 of these hearings, it has been suggested we have
3 failed to protect the Aboriginal rights of our people
4 and failed to consider rights of other First Nations
5 in our negotiations with Manitoba Hydro,
6 particularly where the people of South Indian Lake
7 are concerned.
8 Well, many residents of South Indian Lake are
9 also members of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. We
10 don't want to speak for them. We don't speak for
11 them because they have told us not to as they work
12 towards their goal of independence from our First
13 Nation to establish their own reserve.
14 But we've always had a head man in South
15 Indian who is our liaison there. Under law, we are
16 obligated to them and we support and respect their
17 goals even though the process of separation like any
18 process of separation has been painful for our First
19 Nation. It is a process that began many many years
20 ago and the final separation agreement is yet to be
21 negotiated.
22 Still the NCN members of South Indian Lake
23 have been eligible to vote, to have their say on the
24 proposed Wuskwatim project. But it is no surprise
25 that they had been against the proposal because they
2929
1 have been against any decision or initiative of the
2 NCN council for over a decade. Yes, we are still one
3 nation in law but we went our separate ways many
4 years ago -- or to put it, many moons ago.
5 In 1992, the residents of South Indian Lake
6 finalized an independent settlement with Manitoba
7 Hydro to compensate them for damages caused by the
8 Churchill River Diversion. The NCN of Nelson House
9 had no role to play in those negotiations. Our input
10 was offered but it was not accepted.
11 Instead, we entered into our own comprehensive
12 negotiations with Manitoba Hydro. And finally in
13 1976, we settled our negotiations and developed the
14 compensation package which not only provided economic
15 support but gave us control over the development of
16 resources in our traditional lands.
17 It was this 1996 agreement that led us into
18 these negotiations with Manitoba Hydro for Wuskwatim
19 and these negotiations are ongoing. They are open,
20 transparent and they have been very successful. We
21 believe the progress we have made is due mostly to
22 our approach that has included our community in the
23 decision-making process.
24 Well, we have consulted with our members every
25 step of the way as a community. We haven't agreed on
2930
1 everything. The pain and suffering of our people
2 over the past 100 years has taken a toll.
3 As you have heard at this hearing, there is
4 divide between those of us who want to move forward
5 and those of us who cannot move forward. The issues
6 that divide us are not just about Hydro and the
7 flooding, these are complex and long-standing issues
8 that cannot be addressed by this forum.
9 The fact is we, as people, can never be fully
10 compensated for all our losses. We have suffered.
11 But slowly, we are putting the past behind us
12 through new treaties and agreements and by taking
13 responsibility for our own destiny. As a community,
14 while we haven't agreed on everything, we are moving
15 forward, guided by a democratic process and with
16 respect not only to the views of our members but to
17 outsiders as well.
18 And may I make it clear that when I said at
19 the opening of this hearing that some outsiders are
20 acting like economic terrorists, I was not referring
21 to other First Nations who face the same economic
22 challenges as we do, I'm talking about do-gooders who
23 cannot accept that our people are independent and
24 able to make our own decisions. We do not need their
25 protection.
2931
1 We have every right to use our natural
2 resources to aid us in our struggles for economic
3 survival and every right to frame the way we
4 participate.
5 We have also heard that if we are partners in
6 this project, we will be compromised in protecting
7 our environment. Nothing is more important to NCN
8 than our environment and to our people. Protecting
9 both is our primary concern. Of course, the proposed
10 Wuskwatim projects will have an environmental impact
11 but the impact is minimal especially when balanced
12 against the benefits.
13 As you have heard, the flooding will be less
14 than half a square kilometre. And this is because we
15 said no to the original high-head dam that was
16 proposed for the project because the flooding would
17 have been substantial and this was unacceptable to
18 us. We use our traditional knowledge which, combined
19 with western science, equals sustainable development
20 for both of us and also to the north.
21 To say we're not committed to protecting the
22 interests of our people is wrong. We have no
23 conflict of interest being here today as proponents
24 with Manitoba Hydro. Everything we have done in
25 working with Manitoba Hydro towards the proposed
2932
1 development has been for our future generations. We
2 are here for our children and their children. That
3 is responsible leadership. It isn't a personal
4 agenda for myself or for my council. We are working
5 to change the status quo.
6 There has been progress since 1996. We have
7 used our trust to develop community facilities
8 including Community Family and Wellness Centre, the
9 personal care home, just to name a few. And then
10 we've also built nearly 100 homes since that time,
11 yet that isn't enough. Everyday is still a struggle
12 for our people.
13 Try to imagine living in a three-bedroom house
14 with 17 people, elders, young adults and young
15 children. Imagine the tension and challenges of that
16 day, day in and day out. It's a common situation in
17 Nelson House because our population continues to
18 grow.
19 As I speak to you, I need 400 homes. To build
20 at Nelson House costs about $100,000 for each home.
21 That's $40 million plus the cost of supporting
22 infrastructure. How am I ever going to get that? I
23 ask myself everyday. We have to provide education
24 for our children. We haven't had any increases in
25 post-secondary school funding since 1989. How are we
2933
1 going to fund education for our growing population?
2 The annual increase in our population is about three
3 and a half per cent every year.
4 So if we're going to sit around and do
5 nothing, we are going to be in all sorts of trouble
6 in the future.
7 Part of our survival in the past was to live
8 off the land. But our youngest generation of people
9 cannot live off the land because they have never
10 learned the skills. And in 1970s and 1980s,
11 environmental groups promoted the anti-fur lobby.
12 Whether you also want to blame the flooding, the
13 result is the same. It killed our trapping industry
14 for a generation. Our trappers could not pass on
15 their traditional knowledge to the next generation.
16 Now even if the fur market makes a comeback, our
17 young people cannot go out and trap because they
18 don't have the skills.
19 Living off the land is no longer an option.
20 The majority of our people, even though we have heard
21 so-called experts testify at this hearing that is our
22 best option.
23 At the hearing last week in Winnipeg, Peter
24 Kulchyski, the head of Native Studies at the
25 University of Manitoba, suggested our people should
2934
1 somehow turn back the clock and become hunters once
2 again. He's dreaming if he thinks our rapidly
3 growing population would be able to survive today
4 based on a hunter's economy. And what makes him
5 think our young people would all want to be hunters?
6 They live in the 21st century and they want what the
7 21st century can offer them. Our young people want
8 to maintain our Cree culture but they also have the
9 dreams of a successful life in Canada as teachers,
10 dentists, doctors, even lawyers, engineers, artists,
11 musicians, business leaders and trades people. I
12 think Mr. Kulchyski needs a reality check.
13 We don't need his help in deciding what our
14 future should be. We will decide that. And we will
15 be responsible for our decisions. We live in our
16 community and we know what our culture is and what we
17 need to do to preserve it as we move forward.
18 Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, this is 2004.
19 It seems our people are trapped within the 19th
20 century standard of living. We want to catch up with
21 the rest of Canadians. Our young people want to
22 work. But today, living off the land has a new
23 meaning. That is using the profits and opportunities
24 presented by projects like Wuskwatim to train and
25 educate our people for real jobs and business
2935
1 development initiatives. They have the right to live
2 as well as anyone else with the same opportunity. No
3 one can deny them this.
4 We are here today in support of Wuskwatim and
5 the opportunities it represents to create a better
6 future for our people, our children and generations
7 to come. With that, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I
8 thank you and to all the people that are here, I
9 thank you for listening.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams.
11 MR. ADAMS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman,
12 Commissioners, participants and members of the
13 community. My name is Ken Adams and I'm the
14 vice-president of the Power Supply of Manitoba Hydro.
15 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman. Sorry, Ken, if I
16 have to interrupt, but there are copies of the
17 presentation at the back of the room and I wonder if
18 maybe our secretary could just move through the
19 audience so that people have those handy. Since
20 Hydro has made them available, they should be
21 distributed.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar.
23 MR. ADAMS: Okay. Today, we are pleased to
24 continue our presentation of the Wuskwatim Generating
25 and Transmission Projects and we look forward to
2936
1 continuing the very vigorous discussion regarding
2 their merits that we've had for the last three weeks.
3 If we do proceed with these projects, it will
4 be the first northern generating station we will have
5 commenced in nearly 20 years. In that 20 year
6 period, we thoroughly reviewed our approach to such
7 developments. Our current plans embody our new way
8 of cooperating with the local Aboriginal people and
9 our commitment to environmental stewardship.
10 In 1992, Manitoba Hydro became one of the
11 first major organizations in Canada to adopt its own
12 principles of sustainable development. Along with
13 our corporate vision and mission statement, our
14 sustainable development principles provide the
15 backdrop against which we evaluate all potential
16 projects and programs.
17 Our business environment is very complex and
18 is continually evolving reflecting the changing and
19 diverse perspectives of our customers, our owners and
20 other stakeholders. Our business environment is also
21 affected by unfolding events throughout North America
22 such as the structural changes in the electricity
23 industry and by global issues such as climate change.
24 The Wuskwatim project, we are proposing, has been
25 shaped by all of these influences.
2937
1 We firmly believe that the Wuskwatim
2 Development is an excellent project when viewed from
3 each of an environmental, a financial and a social
4 perspective. That is the so-called triple bottom
5 line approach.
6 I personally have worked in the hydro industry
7 in several countries for nearly 40 years and I'm
8 convinced that this project is an excellent example
9 of sustainable development in action. It fully
10 reflects the core values and the strategic priorities
11 recommended by the World Commission of Dams in 2000
12 and is also fully consistent with the International
13 Hydro Power Association's sustainability guidelines
14 recently released.
15 As I noted earlier, Wuskwatim marks the
16 introduction of a fundamentally new and different
17 approach to development of Manitoba's hydroelectric
18 resources. I would like to emphasize five aspects.
19 The first is that we are proposing to advance its
20 inservice date by about 10 years from what would be
21 required if we were building only to serve Manitoba
22 customers. This will help us continue to participate
23 in the very highly competitive and very lucrative
24 export market. Continued success in this export
25 market is needed to allow us to continue to offer low
2938
1 power rates in Manitoba.
2 The second aspect is that based in large part
3 what we have learned during our consultation, and as
4 Chief Primrose just recently mentioned, Wuskwatim has
5 been deliberately designed as a low impact project.
6 The original design was revised to reduce the size
7 from about 350 megawatts to 200 megawatts and to
8 virtually eliminate all flooding. Its operation will
9 be restricted to what we call daily run of the river
10 in order to limit water level fluctuations both
11 upstream and downstream. Also through this
12 consultation process, we have selected transmission
13 line, access road and construction camp locations
14 that respect environmental cultural and local
15 community values.
16 The third aspect is the unprecedented extent
17 of the consultation that has taken place. Hydro
18 initiated consultations with NCN in 1998.
19 Subsequently, starting in 2001, Manitoba Hydro and
20 NCN have consulted with every community in the
21 project area, whether they be in the immediate
22 vicinity, upstream, downstream, near the transmission
23 facilities or just in the region and interested in
24 the project.
25 Excluding our meeting with NCN members and the
2939
1 regulatory authorities and excluding the proceedings
2 in front of this Commission, we have participated in
3 almost 100 meetings with various interested parties.
4 And to date, we have filed binders with over 10 feet
5 of written material explaining the project and we've
6 made it available to the whole world on our website.
7 I doubt that there has ever been a comparable
8 project in Canada with such a comprehensive community
9 consultation and public participation process.
10 The fourth difference from previous projects
11 is that we have worked with both the provincial and
12 the federal governments and the communities situated
13 along the Burntwood and Lower Nelson Rivers to
14 establish a job training program well before the
15 project starts. This program will ensure that
16 northern Aboriginal people can develop the skills
17 needed to qualify for the higher skilled, higher paid
18 jobs that will be available on this project and on
19 future projects that we or others may seek to
20 undertake in the region. It will also help them
21 prepare for long-term employment in the operation and
22 maintenance of the facilities at other locations.
23 The fifth aspect of this project, what makes
24 it fundamentally different from any that we have ever
25 done before and the one of which we are most proud is
2940
1 our partnership arrangement with Nisichawayasihk Cree
2 Nation. As Chief Primrose explained, NCN has
3 participated as a full partner in all the planning
4 activities, the public and community consultation
5 process, the open houses, the environmental
6 assessments and all other aspects of the project. I
7 think it's fair to say that it's been an interesting
8 journey for both of us so far and we look forward to
9 a long and mutually beneficial association with NCN.
10 Before we move to the more detailed
11 presentation of the Wuskwatim project, it is
12 appropriate for me to confirm Manitoba Hydro's
13 intention with regard to certain other potential
14 sources of electricity supplied. We will continue to
15 pursue energy conservation and demand management, or
16 Power Smart programs in our terminology, to the
17 maximum level at which they are economically and
18 financially viable.
19 We will continue to pursue system efficiencies
20 or supply-side enhancement, again in our terminology,
21 again to the maximum level which is economically
22 viable.
23 We continue to explore the possibility of what
24 are often called alternative energy sources and we
25 have assumed that over the next five years, we will
2941
1 be able to purchase or construct the equivalent of at
2 least 250 megawatts worth without any negative
3 financial effect on the company. In fact, we don't
4 see these energy sources as competitors to the
5 Wuskwatim project but rather as complimentary. They
6 are certainly not mutually exclusive.
7 Returning to Wuskwatim, Manitoba Hydro is
8 fully aware of the importance of its activities in
9 Manitoba and that our actions today will leave a
10 legacy for future Manitobans. Hydro and NCN are
11 confident that when viewed in its entirety, we will
12 be able to demonstrate that Wuskwatim will provide a
13 source of clean, renewable energy that will displace
14 fossil fuels in central North America. It will
15 provide financial and reliability benefits to
16 Manitoba Hydro's domestic customers. And that it
17 will be profitable to both Manitoba Hydro and NCN.
18 We will also demonstrate that the
19 environmental effects of the project are not
20 significant and in fact, when viewed on a global
21 basis, there will be net environmental benefits. We
22 will demonstrate that the projects will provide an
23 economic stimulus to Manitoba particularly here in
24 Northern Manitoba. And we will show that the risks
25 associated with the proposed development are
2942
1 relatively low and readily manageable.
2 At this point, I will turn the presentation
3 over to Ed Wojczynski, who is our Division Manager of
4 Power Planning and Development, and Councillor Elvis
5 Thomas who is the NCN Councillor with responsibility
6 for the Future Development Portfolio. Mr.
7 Wojczynski, Mr. Thomas.
8 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Councillor Thomas and I were
9 just going to call up the presenters and the
10 witnesses and introduce them. And I believe there is
11 one more witness, Mr. Grewar, who needs to be sworn
12 in. So we thought this would be an appropriate time
13 for that before going into the presentation.
14 MR. THOMAS: The Panel members that we have
15 with us are George Rempel. He's with TetrES. And
16 Dave Cormie, he's with Manitoba Hydro. Ed
17 Wojczynski, of course you see him up here at the
18 front. Cam Osler, he is with Inter Group. Stuart
19 Davies, he's with North/South. Elizabeth Hicks,
20 she's with ND Lea. Cam MacInnes, he's with Unis
21 Limited and works for NCN. And Lyn Wray, she's with
22 Manitoba Hydro. And these constitute our Panel
23 members for the day. Of course, you've already met
24 Chief Primrose and also Mr. Ken Adams who is the
25 vice-president for Power Planning with Manitoba
2943
1 Hydro.
2 With that, we'll start our presentation and
3 we'll have some closing comments after that. Oh,
4 Elizabeth Hicks needs to be sworn in.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you do that
6 and then can we arrange to have the additional chairs
7 please in front for the members of the Panel?
8 MR. GREWAR: Yes, we can certainly. Ms.
9 Hicks, are you aware that it is an offence in
10 Manitoba to knowingly mislead this Commission?
11 MS. HICKS: Yes.
12 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell only the
13 truth in proceedings before this Commission?
14 MS. HICKS: Yes, do I.
15 MR. GREWAR: Thank you.
16
17 (ELIZABETH HICKS: SWORN)
18
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I remind the people in
20 attendance that the other members are already sworn
21 in from the hearings that have begun in Winnipeg.
22 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, we were
23 under the impression that you weren't going to all
24 sit up there until the questioning actually occurred
25 afterwards so you're not staring into the projection
2944
1 lens.
2 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes, Mr. Chair. What we
3 thought is perhaps presenters can stay at the front
4 during presentation and then after that, we assumed
5 there will be a break, and then we could bring the
6 rest up if that would suit you, sir?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
8 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Our first presentation is
9 going to be by Mr. George Rempel. He's going to be
10 presenting on behalf of NCN and Manitoba Hydro a
11 description of what is Wuskwatim and where are we
12 going to build it and give some idea of what the
13 project itself is about. We're going to then follow
14 with a few other presentations but we'll start with
15 Mr. Rempel.
16 MR. REMPEL: My job is to describe the
17 projects to you briefly. There are two projects, the
18 generation station and the transmission project.
19 They are extensively described in individual binders.
20 There's a binder Volume 3 for the generation station
21 that describes in great detail the generation
22 station. And there's another volume in the
23 transmission line EIS that also gives details of the
24 projects. What I'll do today is give you an
25 overview.
2945
1 Firstly, I'll provide a bit of perspective in
2 terms of where the project is located. Here we have
3 the City of Thompson. We have Nelson House community
4 over here. Nelson House is about 37 kilometers I
5 guess northwest of the project and Thompson is about
6 46 kilometers from the project. We show Snow Lake
7 there because there will be some transmission lines
8 going there and there's also The Pas over here.
9 What we are looking at in terms of the
10 environmental assessment is a 200 megawatt generation
11 station located at Wuskwatim Falls here. It's
12 actually at Taskinigup Falls which is the outlet
13 effectively of Wuskwatim Lake. It's on the Burntwood
14 River.
15 In constructing this project, there will be an
16 access road from PR 391 about 48 kilometers long.
17 It's a permanent all-weather access road. There will
18 be other infrastructures such as the switching
19 station, et cetera. There will be a six year
20 construction schedule. So assuming a 2004 start,
21 first power will be out in 2010. There are
22 transmission lines from the project to connect to the
23 existing hydro transmission system in Thompson, also
24 at Snow lake and at The Pas.
25 As Mr. Adams and Chief Primrose said, this
2946
1 project has been designed to minimize flooding.
2 Manitoba Hydro and NCN selected a low-head project.
3 They could have built a dam higher that would have
4 resulted in more power but also more flooding. This
5 design minimizes environmental effects. The flooding
6 in the upstream area of the dam is actually limited
7 to less than half a square kilometer.
8 The low-head design produces about 200
9 megawatts of power. If the high-head that was
10 originally contemplated had been built, there would
11 be 350 megawatts, but there would also be 140 square
12 kilometers of flooding. So we have less energy and
13 less flooding. This low-head design actually amounts
14 to the least amount of flooding of any generating
15 station in Manitoba Hydro's system.
16 I'm going to take a bit of time to describe
17 the site where the dam is proposed to be developed.
18 This is Wuskwatim Lake up here and we have Wuskwatim
19 Falls. The river flows this way, tumbles down
20 Taskinigup Falls and then continues on down the
21 Burntwood River. This distance here is about three
22 kilometres. A dam will be built here. This will
23 result in this water here rising about seven metres.
24 That means this area here, which we call the
25 immediate forebay, will see some flooding along here.
2947
1 This is about three kilometers. There will be a band
2 of flooding about 25 to 300 metres wide along here.
3 This band will be cleared before the flooding occurs.
4 But this is where the half square kilometre of land
5 will be flooded. There will be no flooding -- extra
6 new flooding on Wuskwatim Lake. The lake will be
7 held at the upper range of where it exists now on
8 occasion at elevation 234.
9 Further, in terms of building this project,
10 there will be a powerhouse and a spillway area here.
11 There will be three turbines put into a powerhouse.
12 So the river, instead of flowing here, will then go
13 through the turbines and generate power. This dam
14 will capture about 22 metres of head or drop and that
15 will be converted to electrical energy.
16 There will also be excavation over here in
17 order to ease the flow from Wuskwatim Lake into this
18 immediate forebay and into the turbines. There will
19 be channels cut into this area here to make for
20 better hydraulic conveyance. That extra material
21 will be piled over here. There will be rock riprap
22 along the edges. It will be rehabilitated after.
23 And that's the way the site will be developed.
24 I'm going to show you the effects of the
25 Wuskwatim project on water levels in the general
2948
1 area. This map will show it but I need to tell you a
2 little bit about the perspective here. Here is the
3 Rat River system, here is the Burntwood system.
4 Notigi is off the site here. Notigi is actually
5 about 90 kilometres from the site over here to the
6 west. Here we have Nelson House and it's about 37
7 kilometres in this fashion distance here.
8 There is Footprint Lake where the community is
9 located. Here's Threepoint Lake. As we go
10 downstream on the Burntwood, we find here a set of
11 rapids that are significant in terms of the water
12 regime. Cranberry Lake, Sesep Lake, Wuskwatim Lake,
13 Wuskwatim Brook. Here is the proposed site of the
14 station, Taskinigup Falls. Then we go downstream.
15 This is about I believe 13 kilometres to Opegano
16 Lake. Another 14 kilometres, we get to Birch Tree and
17 here is Thompson.
18 So what I'm going to do now is show you what
19 the effects of this station will be in terms of this
20 water regime.
21 Firstly there will be no changes in level
22 fluctuations at Threepoint or at Footprint Lake. The
23 water levels will change as they have in the past.
24 They change depending on the amount of flow that
25 comes down the Rat/Burntwood system. So if it's a
2949
1 wet year, the flows are higher and the levels are a
2 bit higher. That will continue as it has for the
3 last 18 or so years.
4 The water levels will change below Early
5 Morning Rapids. These are a set of rapids that act
6 as a divider if you'll like. The water levels that
7 are changed here will not pass upstream further up
8 past Early Morning Rapids either in open water or in
9 winter.
10 In this area here, there will be a fairly
11 stable water level. There will be small variations
12 near the upper range of what happens now. Right now,
13 the Wuskwatim Lake varies from 232.6 to 234.3.
14 With a dam, it will be held almost always at
15 234. In fact, there will be small variations about
16 13 centimetres or five inches on a daily basis.
17 That's excluding wind and wave effects. And that
18 variation comes about, in terms of wind, are three
19 units running, say, and two units are then -- one
20 unit is shut down. Or say if there's one unit
21 running and two units are put on, in other words
22 changing from one unit to two units, will change the
23 outflow a little bit and that water level here will
24 change a bit.
25 On a daily basis, the water coming down here
2950
1 will be the same amount of water that leaves. But
2 those variations from one unit to two units or two
3 units to three units will cause some water level
4 changes downstream.
5 Just immediately below the station in what we
6 call the tail race, there will be changes within the
7 day to a maximum of 1.3 metres, 4.2 feet during
8 normal open water operating conditions. Half the
9 time, there will be virtually no changes.
10 As we get to Opegano Lake, there will be water
11 levels to a maximum daily amount of 0.1 metres or 4
12 inches. Sorry, a median 50 per cent of the time
13 there will be .1 metres and maximum .45 metres, about
14 one and a half feet. As we proceed further down, the
15 water level variations are dampened even further.
16 And by the time you get to Birch Tree, there will be
17 a 0.1 metre or about 3 inches under open water on a
18 maximum basis. Half the time, there will be
19 virtually zero changes.
20 So basically, the water level variation occurs
21 between this area here and here, below Early Morning
22 Rapids to Birch Tree Lake.
23 A few remarks then on the Transmission Line
24 Project. The transmission line has to go from one
25 point to another. In between, there's a lot of
2951
1 flexibility and the routes are typically selected to
2 avoid environmental sensitivities. So route
3 selection is a big part of this planning process. It
4 involves balancing biophysical, socioeconomic,
5 technical and cost perspectives. Public input is a
6 big factor here. A lot of meetings are taken to
7 involve the local First Nations, Aboriginal people,
8 the elected officials, environmental groups, resource
9 users and the general public in the identification of
10 alternative routes and then also into the selection
11 of the preferred route.
12 The aim is to reduce the adverse environmental
13 effects and enhance positive effects and that's
14 written up in the Environmental Impact Statement.
15 This is a picture, a map showing the routes
16 that have been proposed. Here is Thompson. There is
17 the Wuskwatim project site here, Snow lake and The
18 Pas Rall's Island Station. There will be a line
19 built from Thompson into Wuskwatim. It will be the
20 first line built, 45 kilometres long. It will
21 provide construction power for building the site.
22 And it will look like this. It will be a steel
23 tower, 38 metres high, 60 metre right of way most of
24 which will be cleared.
25 The helicopter in this picture shows that
2952
1 there will be helicopter maintenance of the right of
2 way not construction. There will also be a line
3 similar to this from Snow Lake to The Pas. These are
4 existing stations at Herblet Lake and The Pas. It
5 will be a similar line like this. It will be 165
6 kilometres long. And we have one more line that's a
7 bit different here that's between Wuskwatim. That's
8 here between Wuskwatim and Snow Lake. There will be
9 two lines on one right of way. The right of way is a
10 bit wider then, 110 metres, and still has got two 38
11 metre high steel structures. That's to increase
12 reliability of power. So we have about 350
13 kilometres of transmission line to connect the
14 station into the existing system.
15 I believe that's the last slide on project
16 description. That's an overview on projection
17 description. And Mr. Dave Cormie will now give you
18 some indication of how this station might affect the
19 overall hydro operation.
20 MR. CORMIE: Thank you, George. My name is
21 David Cormie. I am in charge of Power System
22 Operation at Manitoba Hydro. I would like to spend a
23 few moments this afternoon describing the potential
24 for change in Power System Operation as a result of
25 the Wuskwatim project.
2953
1 Manitoba Hydro has 16 generating stations with
2 an installed capacity of around 5,500 megawatts. The
3 addition of the Wuskwatim station, about 200
4 megawatts, is a small addition. And there will be
5 some small changes to the way the power system
6 operates because we are adding to our capability.
7 But besides the local effects, in the
8 immediate project area that George spoke of a few
9 minutes ago, there will not be any significant
10 changes in water levels outside the specific project
11 area.
12 The first couple of slides I want to talk
13 about are the operation of the Churchill River
14 Diversion. The Churchill River Diversion will
15 continue to operate the way it has in the past.
16 Water releases at Notigi will be made in accordance
17 with the water supply. The design and planning for
18 Wuskwatim has assumed that the CRD will continue to
19 operate in its current form and that we will continue
20 to operate according to annual modifications under
21 our interim license that we receive from the Manitoba
22 Government under the Augmented Flow Program.
23 Wuskwatim will not change the CRD flow
24 patterns except for the flow patterns that are
25 changed on a daily basis as a result of Wuskwatim
2954
1 backing off a little bit at night and increasing
2 output during the day time.
3 Wuskwatim, on a daily basis, will pass the
4 flow that arise at the station. So every day
5 whenever water will rise from the releases upstream
6 at Notigi, that water will pass through the
7 generating station and there will only be minor water
8 level variations in the immediate forebay of the
9 generating station.
10 On the Churchill River again, Southern Indian
11 Lake reservoir will continue to operate as it has in
12 the past. This chart shows the water levels as they
13 vary throughout the years. In a normal year, the
14 level of Southern Indian Lake is raised between the
15 lower level of 843 feet to a high level of 847 and a
16 half feet. And that is usually reached in the mid
17 summer. And that's achieved by having reduced
18 outflows from Notigi and also the extra water that
19 runs off from the snow melt run-off in the spring and
20 summer rain falls and the lake is filled up. And
21 then during the fall and the winter period, the level
22 of Southern Indian Lake is lowered in order to
23 increase the flows going down the diversion route,
24 down the Burntwood River into the Nelson River.
25 And that pattern will continue regardless of
2955
1 whether Wuskwatim is built or not and will not be
2 changed by the construction of Wuskwatim.
3 The objective for operating the Churchill
4 River Diversion is to fill Southern Indian Lake up
5 and then draw it down so the extra water that's put
6 in storage in Southern Indian Lake during summertime
7 is made available to the downstream generating
8 stations in the wintertime. And it's our objective
9 each and every winter to draw the lake down so that
10 we make the most water available to the generating
11 stations downstream during the winter season.
12 Churchill River Diversion operation follows
13 this predictable seasonal pattern and that will not
14 change as a result of Wuskwatim.
15 There will be some small changes on a daily
16 basis to the way we operate the generating stations
17 on the Nelson River, specifically at the Kettle
18 Generating Station and the Stephens Lake Reservoir.
19 At night time, the power that Wuskwatim
20 produces is less valuable than in the day time. So
21 what we would like to do is to continue to operate
22 Wuskwatim but back our other generating stations
23 down. All our generating stations are connected
24 through the transmission system and they are all
25 linked together. So if Wuskwatim is producing power
2956
1 at night that we want to store, we will store that at
2 our Lower Nelson generating stations.
3 This chart shows the water levels on the Lower
4 Nelson River at the Kettle Generating Station.
5 Again, we operate the reservoir between a high level
6 of 463 feet to a low level of 453 feet. There's a 10
7 foot change there. For this chart, this is a chart
8 that shows the levels in June. Normally, the levels
9 range in a five foot range.
10 The blue line and the red line shows the
11 difference in our operation with and without the
12 construction of Wuskwatim. And there's only a very
13 small difference of less than an inch difference
14 between what the levels will be with Wuskwatim and
15 what they will be without Wuskwatim. And that's
16 because of the timing, the daily timing of our
17 generation of Wuskwatim.
18 Another major component of our power system
19 that will be affected, that could be affected by the
20 construction of Wuskwatim is the Lake Winnipeg
21 Regulation project. There are times of years when
22 Wuskwatim will produce power when that power is best
23 saved for release at another time. And it's through
24 the operation of the Lake Winnipeg Regulation project
25 that that savings occurs.
2957
1 On Lake Winnipeg, we have a license from the
2 government. And the government allows us to regulate
3 the lake between a high level of 715 feet and 711
4 feet. So there's four feet of level that can be used
5 for power purposes. During flood conditions, when
6 the water levels on Lake Winnipeg go above this 715
7 feet, Manitoba Hydro is required, by its license from
8 the province, to open the dam at Jenpeg to regulate
9 Lake Winnipeg to provide flood protection to keep the
10 levels on Lake Winnipeg as low as possible given the
11 flood conditions.
12 And you remember back in 1997, there was The
13 Flood of the Century. That's when Lake Winnipeg was
14 operated to keep the flooding minimal on Lake
15 Winnipeg.
16 During drought conditions, when the water
17 levels on Lake Winnipeg are very low, when they go
18 below the 711 feet, our license requires us to go to
19 the Minister of Water Stewardship and he sets the
20 outflows from Lake Winnipeg. So under extreme
21 drought conditions or on flood conditions, the
22 operation of Lake Winnipeg is set by the licence or
23 by the Minister.
24 In this four foot range, Manitoba Hydro has
25 the discretion to release water or to store water in
2958
1 Lake Winnipeg. During low water years, like we're
2 incurring this year, we're having a drought that
3 would occur about one year in every 50 years, we
4 operate the lake in a very conservative manner to
5 ensure that there will be enough electricity supply
6 available for Manitobans if the drought were to
7 continue. So we go into a conservation mode.
8 In the conservation mode, in the drought mode,
9 in the flood mode, these types of operations won't be
10 affected by the Wuskwatim project.
11 There is the potential for change during the
12 periods when water conditions are normal and we are
13 allowed to operate Lake Winnipeg for system
14 economics. And there is a potential there when we
15 can store the output from Wuskwatim and save it for
16 future times. And that would result in small changes
17 in outflows from Lake Winnipeg that would otherwise
18 not occur if the project had not been put in place.
19 So the question is how will the power system
20 operate or what will the water levels be in the
21 future with and without Wuskwatim? Manitoba Hydro
22 has some computer models that we run to simulate how
23 the power system will operate in the future. And
24 this is a chart that shows water levels on Cross Lake
25 with river flows and water supplies for the period
2959
1 1970 to 1990. And these are the water levels that
2 would occur on Cross Lake without the construction of
3 the Wuskwatim project.
4 Water levels you can see fluctuate from very
5 high levels to very low levels. The high levels are
6 during periods of floods. 1974 there was a very
7 large flood, 1979 a large flood, 1986 a large flood.
8 Water levels are high because there's a lot of water
9 coming down the rivers. Conversely during low water
10 years, like the droughts of the late eighties, the
11 droughts of the early eighties and 1977, water levels
12 are very low just because there's not a lot of water
13 flowing in the rivers.
14 So the water level fluctuations are occurring
15 because Mother Nature is giving us lots of rain and
16 lots of run-off or like what's happening this year,
17 very little rain or run-off and so the water levels
18 are low. So this is what our computer models are
19 predicting without the construction of Wuskwatim.
20 We can now put into the computer model what
21 can happen if we build Wuskwatim and we can compare
22 the black line, which is the prediction of levels
23 with Wuskwatim to the predictions without Wuskwatim.
24 And there are very very small changes in water levels
25 on Cross Lake comparing the two situations with or
2960
1 without Wuskwatim. So this is what leads us to
2 believe that there will be very small, almost
3 imperceptible changes in levels as a result of the
4 project.
5 For a lake like Cross Lake, water level
6 changes are occurring. We talked about the
7 difference between lowest levels and highest levels.
8 Right now, levels range about eight feet between a
9 very low dry year and a very high wet year. And so
10 the lake sees levels changing eight feet just due to
11 variation in rainfall. You can also see water level
12 changes around four feet due to wave effects. Ice
13 effects are around a foot. The wind causes the water
14 levels to change about half a foot. And our
15 operating at the Jenpeg Generating Station causes the
16 levels to change on a daily basis of about two
17 inches.
18 When we put Wuskwatim in, we expect that in
19 the summertime, there will be a very small, slightly
20 lower level of water level about .1 of a foot, a
21 little bit less than a foot -- sorry, a little less
22 than an inch, water levels will be about an inch
23 lower with the project than without. This is in the
24 average summer time.
25 Depending on how Manitoba Hydro sells the
2961
1 power, and it's our intention to sell the power from
2 Wuskwatim with a firm sale, it's minus .1 of a foot.
3 But with if we were not to sell it as a firm, a
4 product to a customer, as a sensitivity we did the
5 calculation what the level difference would be. And
6 the water level then in the summertime is about 4/10
7 of a foot, approximately 5 to 6 inches higher during
8 the summer under that sensitivity if we were not to
9 have a firm sale.
10 That is not our intention. Our intention is
11 to sell the power under our firm long-term contract.
12 So in conclusion under the water regime, we
13 don't expect any change to the Churchill River
14 Diversion operation or the water regime outside the
15 study area. There will be no perceptible change to
16 the Lower Nelson water levels and no perceptible
17 change in outflows from Lake Winnipeg. And no
18 perceptible change in water levels affected by -- on
19 those lakes affected by Lake Winnipeg regulation.
20 And we provided these water level effects to
21 our environmental team for their review to see what
22 the impacts from those might be. Thank you.
23 MR. MAYER: Mr. Chair, I think we should make
24 clear, because all of us understand when you are
25 talking 400 odd feet, that our lakes aren't that
2962
1 deep. And those of us who have been listening to
2 this presentation for a number of weeks recognize
3 when you're talking like the 400 level, we're talking
4 about feet above sea level, Mr. Cormie?
5 MR. CORMIE: That's correct, Mr. Mayer,
6 thanks. Good point.
7 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I'm Ed Wojczynski for
8 Manitoba Hydro. I'm Division Manager of Power
9 Planning and also Environmental Licensing at Manitoba
10 Hydro. And I will be speaking on what's called Need
11 For and Alternatives To for Wuskwatim and that's
12 really what is the overall justification for
13 Wuskwatim. What are the alternatives to Wuskwatim?
14 And what are the economic and financial conclusions?
15 But I'm going to start off perhaps with a bit
16 of an explanation that we actually have two sets of
17 studies or two assessments in our Clean Environment
18 Commission process. We have what's called the Need
19 For an Alternatives which is, as I said, I was
20 looking at the justification for Wuskwatim. And
21 that's what I'm going to be speaking on.
22 And then after that, we have another part of
23 the review process and that's dealing with the
24 Environmental Impact Study for Wuskwatim and that's
25 dealing with the environmental impacts of Wuskwatim
2963
1 itself. So I'm only going to be dealing with the
2 first part and that's the Need For and Alternatives.
3 And this overhead gives a bit of a summary as to what
4 Need For and Alternatives is about. And our outline
5 for that comes from essentially the instructions
6 given or the request to the Clean Environment
7 Commission to look at this. And what they said is
8 that we should be looking that the CEC should ensure
9 that all of the alternative options were considered
10 and that Wuskwatim was selected on reasonable grounds
11 including economic viability as an export project.
12 And there's a mention of Wuskwatim in its
13 environment.
14 So we did an evaluation of looking at
15 Wuskwatim. And we've got a partnership here, NCN and
16 Manitoba Hydro, but when looking at the economics and
17 is it good in the province to build it or not. We
18 didn't look at the parts of the project that are
19 owned by Hydro or owned by NCN, we looked at the
20 entire project from an environmental licensing
21 benefit.
22 But secondly, we were also asked to
23 demonstrate what the effects are on Manitoba Hydro's
24 customer rates and also on the financial stability of
25 Manitoba Hydro. So the second part of the analysis
2964
1 was Manitoba Hydro itself. It's not NCN now looking
2 at what happens to our income, what happens to the
3 rates to Manitoba Hydro customers in the future. And
4 in that part of the submission, we did account for
5 the partnership arrangements and look specifically at
6 Manitoba Hydro's interests.
7 So starting with why Wuskwatim. And overall,
8 in one sentence, the reason we're proposing to
9 proceed with Wuskwatim is that it's an economic
10 profitable project with benefits for all Manitobans
11 including those in Northern Manitoba. And secondly,
12 because it is a very clean project with much less
13 environmental impact than the generation it
14 displaces. And that in a nutshell is why you want to
15 proceed with Wuskwatim.
16 This overhead expands on that somewhat and
17 gives a bit of the details. And we've got a few
18 thousand pages that expand on it some more. But
19 starting, the primary one is that Wuskwatim -- we're
20 looking at what's called the Need For now. And I'm
21 not going to be talking about Alternatives. That
22 will be later on. Right now, just for Wuskwatim,
23 what is the need for Wuskwatim? It will provide
24 economic, financial, environmental and reliability
25 benefits from increased electricity exports. What
2965
1 we're suggesting is that we advance Wuskwatim.
2 Our conclusions are, and I'll talk about that
3 later, that we would need Wuskwatim around 2020,
4 about 16 years from now, anyways, to meet domestic
5 load in Manitoba. But we're proposing advancing it
6 to 2010 so that we can export the power from that.
7 And we see that as providing a lot of benefits.
8 Manitoba has amongst the lowest electricity
9 rates in the whole developed world. Of all the major
10 electric utilities in the whole developed world,
11 we've got the lowest rates or amongst the lowest
12 rates. And a good part of the reason for that is
13 we've had profitable exports and Wuskwatim would
14 allow us to continue doing that. But there are other
15 benefits as well.
16 One other I'll mention briefly is that by
17 exporting hydroelectricity into our neighbouring
18 jurisdictions, we displace coal and natural gas and
19 that reduces greenhouse gas emission and other
20 emissions as well. And we see that from a global
21 point of view being a large benefit.
22 Moving on to Wuskwatim will provide clean
23 renewable energy. We've had a design for Wuskwatim
24 that was already mentioned where we have reduced the
25 flooding so there's very little flooding at
2966
1 Wuskwatim. We've had a number of other important
2 parts of our design to minimize the environmental
3 impacts including how we're going to operate it.
4 We've had a partnership arrangement with NCN to make
5 sure it's designed properly and that there's going to
6 be local benefits. Not just NCN but also to others
7 in the north. So we see this as being a very clean
8 renewable energy project and we've got the whole
9 Environmental Impact Statement that speaks about that
10 and we'll have a presentation following this one that
11 deals with that.
12 Whenever one is doing an investment, one
13 always has to look at the risks. We've done an
14 extensive risk assessment for Wuskwatim and concluded
15 and confirmed that the risks are very few for
16 Wuskwatim. There is a relatively low risk for
17 Wuskwatim and any of the risks that are there are
18 quite manageable.
19 The next point, the fourth point, is a bit of
20 a byproduct but it is still an important one. And
21 that is that proceeding with Wuskwatim will provide
22 benefits and economic stimulus to all Manitobans
23 including those in the north and especially northern
24 Aboriginal people. And so we see this as providing
25 major benefits. We're going to have, for example, in
2967
1 our special emphasis with Northern Aboriginal people,
2 we're going to have a pre-project training program.
3 That's already beginning. There's going to be
4 employment preference provisions on the project.
5 We're going to have business opportunities for people
6 in the north. And again, we have the partnership
7 with NCN which provides direct benefits. So we see
8 this as being an economic stimulus for Manitobans.
9 Moving on to the other part of the Need and
10 Alternatives is the Alternatives. Manitoba Hydro, on
11 an ongoing basis, we look at the full range of
12 possible electricity resources we could add in the
13 province. And we have concluded that there are a few
14 that are the most environmentally and economically
15 attractive to pursue.
16 Mr. Adams referred earlier to PowerSmart or
17 Conservation. We have been active for over 10 years
18 in promoting conservation in Manitoba and we are in
19 the process of expanding that and are looking at even
20 expanding it more than we are going to. So we view
21 PowerSmart or Conservation as something very good in
22 Northern and Southern Manitoba and we're looking at
23 doing more of that.
24 We look at alternative energy and one that's
25 the most prominent right now is wind generation. We
2968
1 have a commitment to proceed with around 250
2 megawatts of wind and if there was even more wind
3 that was economic, we would proceed with that as
4 well.
5 We have a large system already. You're
6 familiar with some of the generation in the north.
7 You've got transmission and we are looking at,
8 wherever we can, improving the efficiency of that
9 existing system so that we can get more power out of
10 it and without having significant impacts or huge
11 costs. And so we're looking at that as the third
12 area of energy.
13 And we look at other new generation. We look
14 at hydro, we look at coal generation, gas generation,
15 very briefly nuclear, not very much there. And we
16 look at a range of other new generation. We have
17 concluded that hydro is the most attractive out of
18 those and that Wuskwatim is the most attractive out
19 of the hydro.
20 So we have concluded that proceeding with more
21 conservation, improvements in the efficiency of our
22 existing system, alternative energy, particularly
23 wind, and Hydro, and here particularly Wuskwatim, are
24 the four legs of an economically and environmentally
25 diverse portfolio that we are proceeding with.
2969
1 So a bit of background. We've got a lot of
2 generation in Manitoba. Why do we need more? So
3 this graph gives some explanation of what we're doing
4 with our energy in the province, electrical energy.
5 At the bottom, we're going from 2006 out to 2038.
6 And it's a graph of the energy in the province,
7 electrical energy used or consumed. So it's going
8 from 17,000 gigawatt hours to 33,000 gigawatt hours.
9 And those numbers are very hard for anybody to get a
10 sense of what are these gigawatt hours?
11 Wuskwatim is around one and a half thousand
12 gigawatt hours. You can see the distance from this
13 line to this line is how much dependable energy
14 Wuskwatim would produce. So you can get a sense of
15 the scale on this graph.
16 So what this graph shows, starting off with is
17 what load do we have in the province from the
18 electricity that's used in the province by the lights
19 here, by Inco, by all the other uses of electricity
20 in the province. And you can see it's this line
21 here, and that's our forecast for into the future.
22 And it's a pretty boring straight line. Reality is
23 it will be faster in some years, slower, it will be
24 up and down, uncertain, but that's sort of an average
25 long-term forecast.
2970
1 And then on top of that, we have to plan for
2 the exports that Manitoba Hydro is already committed
3 to, particularly in the United States but not just
4 the United States. And that's this over here. You
5 can see the exports are on top of our domestic load
6 and these are the contracts we have already signed,
7 not ones we're thinking about, not ones we're
8 negotiating with, the ones that are already committed
9 and signed. And you can see out around 2017 there is
10 very little export committed after that.
11 So essentially after 2017, what we have to
12 plan for is the domestic load in Manitoba, not
13 exports, although we could commit more exports later
14 on.
15 Then this line here shows what is the supply
16 in Manitoba today and into the future from our
17 existing system and the Power Smart we're putting in
18 and the other things we're already committed to
19 doing. You can see it's higher than our exports and
20 our Manitoba load here. So we have some surplus
21 energy still that we can still export. And Mr.
22 Cormie still makes sales on a day-to-day or
23 month-to-month or year-to-year basis on exports.
24 But you can see that the supply in Manitoba
25 actually shows itself going down and then more or
2971
1 less flattening out. And what happens around here,
2 around 2018 is that we have coal units in the south,
3 a unit at Brandon. We have natural gas-fired units.
4 We have two at Selkirk and we have two at Brandon as
5 well and they are assumed to retire starting around
6 2017/18.
7 The other thing is we have some import
8 arrangements that are really partly tied up with our
9 exports where we can import energy from outside the
10 province if we're in a drought. And some of those
11 end as well although we keep some going forever.
12 So you see there's a reduction in our supply
13 at the same time as our load is coming up. And
14 around 2020, they cross over. That means if we have
15 no more exports that we commit that around 2020, we
16 would need to put in a new supply in Manitoba to make
17 sure that if there's a drought, we can meet the load
18 in Manitoba. And our studies have shown consistently
19 that Wuskwatim is the best next generation supply to
20 do that.
21 Now, what we are also proposing though is to
22 not just build Wuskwatim in 2020 for domestic load
23 but also to advance it for export. So that's why we
24 show here Wuskwatim coming in in 2010. And you can
25 see that we then have that Wuskwatim additional
2972
1 energy is essentially available for export and then
2 after 2020, it's available to use for load in
3 Manitoba.
4 So what have we learned from this graph? Two
5 things; that over time, the exports are going to get
6 smaller as our supply goes down and our load goes up
7 and over time, we're going to have less and less
8 exports; and secondly, that we're going to need
9 additional supply down the road. And Wuskwatim can
10 fulfil both of those roles.
11 So that was what Wuskwatim could do. But why
12 build Wuskwatim? Why not build something else?
13 This is a graph talking about some of the
14 other -- the main other options that we have looked
15 at, that Manitoba Hydro has looked at. And what
16 we're showing here is the cost of building each one
17 of these sources of supply in a cents per kilowatt
18 hour.
19 And what we do, and this is a fairly simple
20 calculation we do for screening purposes. We take
21 the capital cost of the project, we take the
22 operation cost, the maintenance cost, if you're using
23 coal or gas, the fuel cost, any taxes, transmission
24 cost, environmental mitigation community compensation
25 cost, we take all those together and do what's called
2973
1 a life cycle analysis. And also, the profit you
2 would have to have if you built the project. You
3 take all of those together and divide them by the
4 energy and what you get is the cents per kilowatt
5 hour.
6 Now before I go any further, I should explain
7 that this is not what you'd want to do to make a
8 final decision to proceed because you have to do a
9 more full-scale analysis that has other factors in it
10 like what are the system costs? If you take one of
11 these resources and put them on the system, what
12 happens to the rest of your system? How do you have
13 to operate it? Is there room on the tie lines for
14 more export? What will the export rates be? A whole
15 bunch of issues. And so what we do is a screening
16 analysis with this kind of information. And then we
17 take a few of those and do a much more detailed
18 analysis which has these other factors in it.
19 But this is useful as a starting point because
20 you can figure out which are the ones that are the
21 most important to look at.
22 And we start off with what's called Power
23 Smart or demand-side management, DSM. It's the
24 lowest cost resource that we can find in Manitoba.
25 So we're doing all that is low cost in Manitoba. If
2974
1 you wanted to do more DSM above what we're looking at
2 here, the costs would be higher. So these are the
3 costs for what we have done or are doing or are
4 planning on doing.
5 Then we move to the next one and that's new
6 hydro. And we've got a range there of 6.6 cents to
7 7.6 cents. Those are the costs for Wuskwatim,
8 Conawapa and Gull. Wuskwatim is the lowest cost of
9 the three and that's the one we're focusing on and we
10 find it the most attractive out of the hydro right
11 now.
12 If we move on to wind generation, there's
13 uncertainty in wind costs for a number of factors.
14 One of them is how much wind are you going to have?
15 So this is the cost for wind generation for if you
16 were putting in wind generation that had a 25 per
17 cent capacity factor to a 40 per cent capacity
18 factor. And there's other factors that affect it as
19 well, but if we can just focus on that for now. You
20 can see they're roughly the same cost but this does
21 not include the cost of taking the wind which is
22 uncertain. You don't know if the wind energy is
23 going to be available today or not or tomorrow of
24 firming up that wind. And there's a significant cost
25 to doing it.
2975
1 So it's an apples and oranges comparison here
2 and you have to throw in these firming costs and
3 system costs to be able to compare with the hydro.
4 But it tells you there is some good potential here.
5 And we have committed to proceeding with 250
6 megawatts of wind.
7 So these three resources plus improving our
8 existing system we've determined are the main ones to
9 look at. But we could have looked at other ones and
10 we did look at other ones.
11 Putting in new gas generation in Manitoba,
12 there's different ways of doing it. The cost is
13 going to depend on what will natural gas cost. No
14 one knows what natural gas cost is going to be down
15 the road. These assume that natural gas costs will
16 be around 3 and a half dollars per million BTUs. It
17 turns out that the gas cost over the next year, say
18 one year from now, is around $6.00 per million BTU.
19 So it will be much higher than what we've got here.
20 However, we expect gas prices will come down but
21 probably not as low as we've used here, somewhat
22 higher. So the gas generation is fairly expensive.
23 Plus there will also be environmental costs from the
24 emissions from the natural gas that would make the
25 gas generation more costly.
2976
1 It's even more true for coal generation. We
2 have got coal on here. What we do at Manitoba Hydro
3 is no one knows what the environmental regulation
4 down the road is going to be. So we start with a
5 business as usual. We say what are the rules that
6 are already in place? What are the laws that are
7 already in place? Say what are the costs of building
8 gas generation or coal generation either in Manitoba
9 or in export jurisdictions? So we do a business as
10 usual.
11 But then we say if things are going to get
12 probably more environmentally stringent down the road
13 in the future, we don't know how quickly or how much,
14 so we do a few different scenarios particularly for
15 greenhouse gas regulation. And that increases the
16 cost. That's another reason why there's some
17 uncertainty as to what the costs are going to be.
18 And we take that into account. And then we also do
19 the same when looking at our export market.
20 And when we look into the export market, we
21 know that if you have more environmental stringency
22 in the future, there will be less coal built, less
23 coal, more natural gas, more wind, more other
24 sources. But in the end, what Wuskwatim will be
25 competing with would be gas generation or coal
2977
1 generation mainly.
2 Now there's other sources, biomass, fuel
3 cells, photovoltaic, nuclear, whatever, we have
4 screened those out as being something worth
5 developing in Manitoba.
6 So what are the conclusions we have drawn in
7 our economic analyses on Wuskwatim? First of all,
8 that Wuskwatim is a very economic project
9 particularly given that it's a relatively low level
10 of risk. Secondly, we've done extensive risk
11 sensitivities and determined that Wuskwatim's
12 economics are robust with respect to the
13 sensitivities, whether there's drought, low export
14 prices, higher capital cost, a whole range of
15 sensitivities we've done.
16 The third conclusion is, and there's been a
17 lot of discussion in our process the last three weeks
18 and early in the interrogatories, if you built a
19 whole bunch of more wind instead of the 250 and put a
20 whole bunch of more DSM, you wouldn't need Wuskwatim.
21 We have looked at what is the maximum amount
22 of DSM and wind that could reasonably be economic as
23 a sensitivity and upper bound and determine that
24 Wuskwatim would still be economic and its economics
25 will only be slightly reduced. So we're confident
2978
1 you could proceed with all the economic wind DSM and
2 Wuskwatim and all three would still be economic.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: What's DSM, Mr. Wojczynski, for
4 everybody here?
5 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes. I'm sorry, I slip into
6 technical jargon. DSM is the energy conservation or
7 Power Smart.
8 So those are the economic conclusions. And I
9 have mentioned earlier we also have to look at what
10 about Manitoba Hydro itself? What will happen to the
11 rates for the customers in Manitoba? Will the
12 company still have a strong financial stability?
13 And we've done extensive looking at that and
14 concluded that there will be no adverse effects on
15 Manitoba Hydro's financial stability as a result of
16 investing in Wuskwatim. We have to look at the debt
17 ratio, the debt equity ratio. It will not be
18 significantly impacted. They are negligible. And
19 also at our net income, the earlier years of the
20 project when it's starting up.
21 Later on in the later years of the project,
22 we'll have the revenues from the project so we're not
23 worried about the debt ratio later on. It's the
24 earlier years when you're starting up with Wuskwatim
25 that you're most concerned with debt and net income.
2979
1 And in those earlier years, there will not be any
2 additional rate increases due to Wuskwatim.
3 In the long term, we get the benefits and we
4 get improved long-term financial performance from
5 Manitoba Hydro's share of the Wuskwatim project. And
6 our prediction is that there will be customer rate
7 savings. Assuming that the profits from Wuskwatim go
8 into rate reductions, that the rates will go down
9 starting six to eight years after the project starts
10 and the rate reductions will continue after that.
11 So overall, we have concluded that Wuskwatim
12 is a very economically and financially attractive
13 project and that it doesn't preclude building any
14 other projects that are viable and that it's the best
15 project for us to be seeding with at this time.
16 Thank you.
17 Our next presentation is going to be dealing
18 with the Environmental Impact Statement. And Cam
19 Osler from Inter Group is going to be starting with
20 that presentation.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wojczynski, it's 20 to 3:00
22 and I know we wanted to go through the whole
23 presentation because you have to change the set-up a
24 bit but after Mr. Osler, there will still be other
25 presentations I gather. So maybe we should stop for
2980
1 a moment here and have a break. So let's take a 15
2 minute break here.
3
4 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:42 P.M.
5 AND RECONVENED AT 3:00 P.M.)
6
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can everybody please
8 find a chair as quickly as possible. For those of
9 you who wanted coffee and found out there was none
10 when you got there, some is being made and there
11 will be some after a short while. Give it 15, 20
12 minutes, then you can go at any time after that.
13 We will continue with the presentations from the
14 proponents, Manitoba Hydro and NCN. And I believe
15 it is Mr. Osler that continues at this point.
16 MR. OSLER: My name is Cam Osler. I'm
17 going to present on the environmental impact
18 statements now which are the other sets of
19 documents with regard to the Wuskwatim projects.
20 The environmental impact statements were prepared
21 by Manitoba Hydro and NCN and they were assisted
22 by a team of, environmental management team, that
23 reported to both Manitoba Hydro and NCN. I'm
24 going to deal first with the integrated approach
25 elements of the environmental impact statements
2981
1 prepared for the Wuskwatim Generation Project and
2 also for the Wuskwatim Transmission Project.
3 To start with, the environmental
4 impacts statements, or EIS as they are often
5 called, were prepared in accordance with the EIS
6 guidelines that Mr. Strachan laid out to you
7 earlier that were prepared by the two governments.
8 These guidelines set out the information that is
9 required by the Government agencies, the Federal
10 and Provincial Government agencies. They provide
11 a project description and the refinement of that
12 description as we progress. When we start off we
13 do not know where the routes will be for the
14 transmission lines or for the road, for example.
15 During the course of the work, after the
16 guidelines emerged, we refined the project
17 description through a process of consultation and
18 analysis, to the point where we end up with a
19 preferred route for the transmission lines, and a
20 preferred route for the access road to the site.
21 Other elements of the description of what this
22 project is were similarly refined as we worked
23 along.
24 The EIS also provides an assessment by
25 the environmental components. Now, the
2982
1 environmental components are the aspects that are
2 laid out in the guidelines of the environment that
3 we are supposed to study. The physical
4 environment, the aquatic environment and the
5 terrestrial environment, the socioeconomic or
6 people environment and the heritage resources.
7 In each one of these environments, the
8 EISs look at what is the existing situation before
9 the projects occur and would occur without these
10 projects anyway. What is the effect of these
11 projects on each of these environments? How would
12 it be different today and in the future with these
13 projects? What types of measures can be taken by
14 the proponents to mitigate, to address the effects
15 that are adverse, to make them better, either in
16 their planning or after they get the projects up
17 and running if they learn that they are causing
18 problems contrary to the predictions or not even
19 foreseen.
20 Cumulative effects, which is looking
21 at the effects of this project in combination with
22 other projects past, current and future. Residual
23 effects, which is a term for what is the net
24 result after we looked at all of these things and
25 looked at all of the mitigation measures we should
2983
1 take. And environmental monitoring, meaning what
2 should we do prudently to monitor the outcomes so
3 that we can test what we have been saying would
4 happen, and we can look for unforeseen things that
5 we didn't say would happen, and we can manage the
6 process in an intelligent way as the projects are
7 developed, constructed and operated.
8 All of these activities in the EIS
9 were done with ongoing public consultation and
10 involvement throughout each of the stages and as a
11 key input to the discussion and the assessment
12 process. The EISs and the environment assessment
13 process incorporated local and traditional
14 knowledge as well as scientific information as
15 required by the guidelines. Local and traditional
16 knowledge was an essential part of the planning
17 and the environment assessment. The planning
18 meaning the selection of routes or the other
19 choices that had to be made in the planning
20 process, and the assessment being what I just
21 described.
22 Now traditional knowledge, this
23 Commission received information from various
24 people during the meetings that it held in
25 February 2002 about traditional knowledge, and
2984
1 there were different definitions that different
2 First Nations and different people have advanced.
3 NCN has put on the record in these statements its
4 own definition of traditional knowledge.
5 Traditional local knowledge, as we
6 approach it from our perspective, our attitude has
7 been one of respect towards the people who have
8 such knowledge and towards the knowledge that they
9 offer to the process. Traditional knowledge can
10 involve both personal knowledge and collective
11 knowledge. It can involve experience. It can
12 involve observations. It can involve values. It
13 does not necessarily in the way in which it has
14 been used by NCN mean it has to be just something
15 that comes from ages and ages of experience. It
16 could also be modern. It can be traditional or it
17 can be modern. We have taken this approach and
18 used it wherever we can throughout the
19 environmental assessment process, from the
20 information that the people have provided to us.
21 In the case of NCN information was
22 shared by them with the study teams and with
23 Manitoba Hydro. Their own traditional knowledge
24 interview study was done with their elders and
25 with their members. NCN members also worked with
2985
1 the study scientists doing the field work. They
2 have been doing this since the beginning of the
3 process in discussions with Manitoba Hydro and
4 they have been doing it actively in setting the
5 scope for our studies and things we should focus
6 on, and they have been doing it in terms of their
7 review of the results of our studies and reports
8 to this Commission and to the governments.
9 Information was also provided by
10 others beyond NCN, ongoing public consultation and
11 involvement activities beyond NCN took place with
12 First Nations and Aboriginal people. And one of
13 the focus points for our consultation was with
14 these groups. Also we met with local Government
15 such as Thompson and The Pas. We also met with
16 potentially affected stakeholders and resource
17 users such as trappers and fishers. Of course our
18 whole process also addressed this information to
19 and received inputs from the general public.
20 In summary, public consultation and
21 involvement as required by the guidelines was an
22 essential and integral part of the assessment
23 process for these EIS studies. Since 1997, as I
24 have just said, NCN has been actively involved
25 with Manitoba Hydro in all aspects of planning for
2986
1 these two projects. The public involvement
2 process, though, has been involving early and open
3 conversations and information with others, not
4 just with NCN. It has tried to provide
5 information about the projects, and to receive
6 views and opinions from people about the projects
7 and about the ways of consulting with them.
8 This process has a focus on Aboriginal
9 and First Nations in potentially affected areas
10 but it also in general had a focus on those that
11 could be potentially affected by either the
12 generation project or the transmission project.
13 Since 2001 we have had five rounds or stages of
14 public consultation and involvement beyond NCN.
15 We have provided extensive opportunities to people
16 to receive information and to provide input. We
17 have done this not only through website
18 information to the general public, but through
19 open houses and community meetings throughout the
20 many communities in the area along the Burntwood
21 and the Nelson and along the transmission routes
22 that were described to you earlier. This process
23 of discussion with people has lead to information
24 being provided to us that we have used in the
25 planning process. Particularly in transmission
2987
1 routing, and in the case of NCN, in the road and
2 selection of the access road route.
3 Since the EISs were filed we also had
4 a workshop for the various participants of the CEC
5 process when they were just getting started to
6 give them a chance to get up to speed quickly with
7 the various EIS information.
8 This process has been going on for
9 four years that lead to the EIS that you see
10 today, and the environmental effects that we are
11 talking about really are the end result that we
12 see happening when you compare the world as it
13 would unfold in each one of these environments
14 with the projects versus the situation that would
15 occur without the projects.
16 One of the things that we look at in
17 doing that is cumulative effects. And the
18 cumulative effects assessment was an integral part
19 of the overall EIS effects assessment. What do
20 cumulative effects look at? They look at all of
21 the effects that are likely to result from the
22 Wuskwatim projects when they are anticipated to
23 occur in combination with other projects or
24 activities that have been or will be carried out.
25 The will be carried out is an interesting issue.
2988
1 We don't just talk about hypothetical projects, we
2 are talking about projects that have a high
3 likelihood of being carried out, that are known to
4 be in the works right now, or that are very likely
5 to be carried out in the relatively near future.
6 In doing this process of looking at
7 cumulative effects, we considered local as well as
8 traditional knowledge. Our view of cumulative
9 effects assessment is an environmental impact
10 assessment done well. We do not view cumulative
11 effects assessment as some special, unique or
12 separate exercise.
13 In doing our approach with these EIS
14 studies, past and current projects and activities
15 were considered as part of the existing
16 environments, the situation that would emerge
17 without the projects. When we looked at future
18 projects and activities, we scoped them into our
19 studies by looking at the factors that I just
20 described. In the case of Manitoba Hydro projects
21 we looked at projects that were reasonably likely
22 to emerge and start construction within the next
23 five to ten years. Scoping was based on the
24 potential for overlapping pathways. Now when we
25 look at the effects of the Wuskwatim projects, we
2989
1 are essentially looking at pathways for effects,
2 how can this project, this transmission or this
3 generation station start to have an impact on the
4 environment? How can it start to have an effect
5 on the physical environment and maybe the aquatic
6 environment and then the terrestrial environment
7 and then ultimately on people in the area? So we
8 looked for pathways from these projects that might
9 overlap with pathways from other projects. The
10 CRD, for example, is part of the existing
11 environment, Churchill River Diversion. And we
12 also looked at pathways with respect to other
13 projects that might be developed in the future.
14 In the local areas that were described
15 by George Rempel from the Early Morning Rapids
16 down to Opegano and Birchtree Lake, we looked at
17 any other projects that might overlap with the
18 Wuskwatim projects generation effects in that
19 area. In the transmission study areas, we looked
20 for overlaps where the transmission lines were
21 proposed to be built. In some cases we think
22 about regional or global effects. Obviously air
23 emissions go well beyond the local area and the
24 issues of how we sell this power or how it might
25 cut our emissions somewhere else goes even beyond
2990
1 Canada perhaps. Global effects can also be in the
2 case of some migratory species such as birds.
3 Certainly regional effects can be the case in
4 terms of species that have a wide habitat range.
5 We considered in short, overlaps with past,
6 current and future projects, and we focused on
7 perceptible effects from the Wuskwatim projects
8 and the extent to which they could overlap with
9 other effects.
10 Now we are going to move on to look at
11 some of the, and only some of the effects in some
12 of the areas. We are not going to discuss the
13 physical environment, because George Rempel's
14 presentation has already focused on the water
15 regime and some of the key elements there. The
16 transmission studies, we are not going to get into
17 the geology today or the soils. We can answer
18 questions about it. Erosion and sediment are
19 subjects that we can answer questions about. We
20 won't get into the details of those, or debris, as
21 they might be in the short term affected by these
22 projects. We are going to move straight to the
23 aquatic environment and terrestrial environment
24 which Stuart Davies will now present to you.
25 MR. DAVIES: Hi, I'm Stuart Davies. I
2991
1 am going to be speaking to the water and land
2 environments. Now, we first started collecting
3 information for this project in 1998 with a joint
4 study process starting in the year 2000 and
5 continuing up to today actually. As Mr. Adams had
6 said previously there is about ten feet of
7 information in total. If we stacked it up it
8 would just about hit the ceiling. And one of the
9 challenges here is to take that information and
10 provide some key points that you could fit into a
11 brief number of overheads. But we will try to at
12 least hit on some of the key things, and we will
13 be able to answer questions as we go.
14 One of the main components of the
15 environment that NCN identified as being important
16 was water quality. We have collected about five
17 years of information on water quality to date and
18 we had planned on collecting another year in 2004.
19 We've collected it over a very large geographic
20 area. We originally started to collect the
21 information upstream of Early Morning Rapids to a
22 site just upstream of Thompson. When we went
23 through the public involvement process some of the
24 downstream communities did have some concerns and
25 asked if we could collect water quality further
2992
1 downstream, so we extended the amount of sampling
2 to an area downstream of Thompson. And when we
3 met with some additional communities they asked if
4 we could extend it further, and the water quality
5 sampling now goes to an area just upstream of
6 Split Lake, and actually links to water quality
7 sampling that is ongoing with another project that
8 goes right down to the estuary.
9 There is a broad range of parameters
10 that are being looked at. Total suspended solids
11 which is mostly the muds and clays that get into
12 the water when you are working, it becomes
13 suspended in the water and you see it going down.
14 All of the nutrients, things like nitrogen that
15 that make algae and things grow in the water have
16 been measured. All of the various metals,
17 including mercury, are being measured. And at
18 some specific locations we are looking at oil and
19 gas in the water and things like bacteria and
20 parasites. During construction we do expect that
21 there will be some site specific, some very
22 specific construction activities that will cause
23 some short term effects when there is work being
24 done in the water, like building the cofferdam, we
25 expect to see mud and other things in the water
2993
1 and that will be carried downstream. During
2 operation we don't expect there will be any
3 measurable effects once the station starts to
4 operate. Basically the water coming down will be
5 very similar and almost the same as the water that
6 will be leaving the generating system. There will
7 be some erosion that takes place along the shore
8 line, and right next to the shore, particularly
9 during the first five years of operation, you
10 would expect to see some muddier areas, but the
11 lake as a whole, the water quality will be pretty
12 well the same.
13 Now we expect that the net effect on
14 fish populations in the study area will be
15 positive. We expect there will be a small
16 increase in the four key fish species that we
17 looked at, Jackfish, Pickerel, Tullabee and White
18 Fish. And the reason that we think this is for
19 the area upstream of the generating station, right
20 now there is water level fluctuations caused by
21 the Churchill River Diversion of about four and a
22 half feet. The water levels are going up and down
23 during the year, and a lot of the shoreline is
24 being exposed and it is less productive than if
25 the water level was stable. So when the
2994
1 generating station is in place the water levels
2 will generally be within four inches of the top,
3 around 240 metres above sea level and the area
4 below that will be much more productive than it is
5 now.
6 Downstream of the generating station
7 we will see larger water level fluctuations than
8 we do right now, but the area is relatively small
9 as compared to the area upstream of the generating
10 station. The area upstream that will be
11 positively affected is about eight to nine times
12 larger than the area where we will see greater
13 water level fluctuations downstream. So if you
14 look at the net effect, we do expect that it will
15 be positive.
16 Now the Department of Fisheries and
17 Oceans plays a very important role in making sure
18 that if you are working in the aquatic environment
19 or in water, that the fish habitat and the fish
20 are protected in those areas. And they require
21 what they call a fish habitat compensation plan.
22 They have a policy that is called a no net loss
23 policy, which basically requires the proponents,
24 NCN and Manitoba Hydro, to make sure that if fish
25 habitat is damaged that you create or replace at
2995
1 least the same amount of habitat in that area or
2 in an area close to it to make sure that you don't
3 have a negative effect overall on fish. So over
4 and above the fact that we feel there will be an
5 increase in fish production, there will also be a
6 fish habitat compensation plan to compensate for
7 that area that will be negatively affected
8 downstream of the generating station.
9 There has been a very detailed plan
10 put towards the Department of Fisheries and
11 Oceans, and they are looking at it right now, and
12 I believe it is available on the website. So we
13 expect that the fish habitat compensation plan
14 will act to again further increase fish production
15 in the area.
16 Ultimately, though, the number of fish
17 that will be present in Wuskwatim Lake will depend
18 on the level of harvest that takes place. With
19 the road access, we do expect that the commercial
20 fishery will be more viable in the future than it
21 is today, because the fish can be driven out
22 rather than flown out. And we do expect that
23 there will be an increase in domestic harvesting
24 also on the lake. Mercury was obviously
25 identified as a major concern by NCN, so there was
2996
1 a lot of effort put towards studying mercury in
2 the documents. Because of the very small area
3 that is going to be flooded, we expect that the
4 total mercury increase will be small enough that
5 you won't be able to measure it in Wuskwatim Lake
6 itself.
7 We looked at both sort of the most
8 likely scenario and also the worst case scenario,
9 and even under the worst case scenario we are not
10 sure whether we will even be able to detect it.
11 Regardless of that, there will be sampling and
12 monitoring programs put in place to sample mercury
13 to make sure that we are right and we can tell
14 people who are using the fish what the levels are.
15 Now downstream of Taskinigup Falls there are some
16 small peat areas that could be affected by the
17 project and we expect that some of the fish,
18 particularly Jackfish that live and don't move
19 very far, may get some levels elevated, but they
20 will be relatively small, and very few fish will
21 be affected in that area. And concentrations of
22 mercury in fish downstream of Opegano Lake will be
23 very small.
24 Mercury is normally transported
25 through biota. Things like fish take the mercury
2997
1 down rather than the water. Mercury
2 concentrations in water are very, very low and it
3 is normally transported downstream through things
4 like fish. And because we have very little fish
5 movement in the area, fish can't swim upstream
6 over Taskinigup Falls, so there are not that many
7 fish that are going down, because once they go
8 down they can't get back up, that we don't expect
9 there to be very much mercury transport going
10 downstream, and we are sure that we are not going
11 to be able to detect it in other areas past
12 Opegano Lake.
13 Now, the Department of Fisheries and
14 Oceans has requested a detailed monitoring program
15 to make sure that we can understand what is
16 happening. Again, a very detailed program has
17 been put to them for consideration. The program
18 will look at and monitor water quality
19 invertebrates, all of the bugs that live on the
20 bottom of the lake, fish and fish habitat, mercury
21 levels, during both construction and operation of
22 the program. Total monitoring period is about 21
23 years, including the construction period. And we
24 have been trying to promote, particularly in
25 Nelson House and other areas, if there is young
2998
1 students that are interested in biology, this is a
2 really good opportunity, because the 21 year
3 period is almost a lifetime of an average job,
4 some jobs. So we are hoping that we do see
5 students getting into that area.
6 The monitoring program, we want to
7 confirm our impact predictions that what we say is
8 right. That we identify unexpected impacts, and
9 we find mitigation as required. Basically we want
10 to make sure what we said was going to happen does
11 happen, and if something happens that we didn't
12 think of, we will know that and we will be able to
13 put mitigation in place to correct that.
14 Now, during construction in regards to
15 the land environment, there will be environmental
16 protection plans that will be developed to make
17 sure that the very specific construction
18 activities do not have a harmful effect on the
19 environment. Most of the effects will be
20 relatively short term during construction, things
21 like noise may keep some of the animals away.
22 There will be some habitat that is lost. During
23 operation one of the key things that is going to
24 happen is a lot of effort is going to be put
25 towards cleaning the areas up that were used for
2999
1 construction, and rehabilitating the habitat to
2 make sure we don't have any long term effects on
3 either plants or wildlife in the area once the
4 project is operating.
5 I believe that is it, and I will turn
6 it back to Mr. Osler.
7 MR. OSLER: Thank you. The final
8 component of the environment that we looked at is
9 the socioeconomic environment and the heritage
10 environment. The socioeconomic environment
11 includes several factors, several elements that we
12 looked at, and the heritage environment of course
13 looks at the heritage resources. I will going
14 through them briefly looking at this slide.
15 On the resource use sense, in the
16 generation sector, generation project, we found
17 that there was a long term and positive effect on
18 the resource use in the local area, largely due to
19 getting access into an area that there isn't good
20 access to since the Churchill River Diversion. In
21 the case of transmission, the effects were
22 positive and negative, depending on what we were
23 looking at, and the question of access in the long
24 run is an important factor that we are looking at.
25 In the short term there could be some disruptions
3000
1 because of noise and other factors to do with
2 construction.
3 Land and water use was looked at in
4 the transmission case, and we documented the
5 resource areas, the traditional use areas, and any
6 other ownership areas where the projects would
7 exist. In the case of transmission lines, of
8 course, that took us through the Cormorant
9 resource management area and into the OCN
10 traditional use area.
11 In the case of economy, we were
12 looking at training and jobs and business
13 opportunities, which I will talk about in a
14 minute. We were also looking at the effects of
15 the option for ownership that NCN has and how that
16 could affect their community in the long term. In
17 the sense that if they take up that option, they
18 could be earning from this project some millions
19 of dollars in the near term after it starts
20 operating in 2010, and in future decades up to
21 tens of millions of dollars a year.
22 In the case of infrastructure and
23 services, we documented cases where there would be
24 infrastructure issues and we talked about them.
25 The most important one that we came up with was
3001
1 for NCN looking at the possibility of
2 in-migration, of people coming back to the
3 community. As the chief said earlier, they
4 already have serious housing issues in this
5 community, so if people start moving home to grab
6 opportunities, this could accentuate the problems
7 and could create additional problems. And we
8 found a very wide range of possible outcomes and
9 suggested different ways that the community could
10 work to manage and mitigate that concern.
11 In the case of personal family and
12 community life, there is a wide range of things
13 that you look at from transportation and access
14 and safety issues, where we didn't in the end find
15 material concerns. Esthetics, the change in the
16 physical look of the environment. The community
17 health issues that were discussed at some
18 considerable length in the NCN community. Social
19 well-being and culture issues, which again were
20 discussed at considerable length in the NCN
21 community. Given the issues associated
22 historically with hydro development and the
23 opportunities that could emerge in this case and
24 what it would take to manage those opportunities
25 well.
3002
1 In the case of transmission projects,
2 the issues of making sure that we avoided
3 culturally sensitive sites, spiritual sites,
4 historically important sites to the local people
5 and the Aboriginal people in the area.
6 In the case of culture, which also is
7 under personal, family and community life, the
8 issue, if we are going to disrupt an area such as
9 Taskinigup Falls, making sure it is done with
10 respect, with proper ceremonies, and we also take
11 care as we bring more people into the area to
12 protect local cultural sites and sacred areas for
13 NCN. And similarly concern and respect with
14 respect to any other cultural aspects that could
15 be affected by these developments.
16 Community organization and
17 coordination and goals and planning were also
18 taken into consideration. In short, I'm not going
19 to try and summarize all of the detail of those
20 areas, but I am pointing out that this subject
21 covered a wide range, and we are open to
22 questions.
23 In the case of heritage resources we
24 did not find any special heritage resources that
25 would be affected that we know about by these
3003
1 projects. The obvious historical and cultural
2 importance of Taskinigup Falls to NCN is clear cut
3 and the central issue addressed by NCN in
4 assessing whether or not it would like to partake
5 in this development. But there will be programs
6 to monitor, to test, as we proceed with these
7 developments to make sure that unknown resources
8 in the heritage area are not disturbed or
9 affected, and if they are found, as the projects
10 proceed, that they will be mitigated and dealt
11 with as is required by law and by sensitive
12 treatment with respect to Aboriginal rights and
13 interests.
14 I will look at one area in a little
15 bit more detail. Estimated total generation
16 construction jobs over the period of the six years
17 of construction from 2004 to 2010, if this project
18 proceeds as proposed. I would say that at the
19 outset that the transmission jobs, I'm not going
20 to talk about, they are very, very small by
21 comparison, and they only go for two years for any
22 one element of the project that we are talking
23 about. But the construction jobs can range at
24 peak, it says here 150 to 550. That is a typo.
25 It should say 540 rather than a 550. But it is a
3004
1 fairly wide range and peaks at a fairly high
2 level.
3 As you can see looking at this graph,
4 the level of jobs goes up and down each year, each
5 one of these -- what you are seeing is the first
6 two years of what we call stage one, which is the
7 development of the access road and the
8 infrastructure and the camp, and then you see the
9 generating station construction itself, which goes
10 on for four years, called stage 2 in our
11 presentations. In each year you see the jobs peak
12 in the summertime and go down in the winter time,
13 so the construction activity is quite seasonal.
14 The other thing that we are showing on
15 this graph is blue versus green in terms of
16 different levels of trade or skills. The blue
17 reflects what we call non-designated trades.
18 These are people who do not require as extensive
19 training and experience in order to get a job as
20 those who are in green there, the designated
21 trades. In general, the non-designated trade most
22 of the people probably require less than a couple
23 of years of training and experience to be eligible
24 for the jobs we are talking about. We are talking
25 about truck drivers, heavy equipment operators and
3005
1 labourers, and other skills of that ilk, catering,
2 administrative skills, et cetera. In contrast,
3 the green shows jobs that require considerable
4 experience and training in order to be qualified.
5 In order to be fully qualified as a designated
6 trade. A carpenter, electrician, plumber, you
7 need four years of training and education in terms
8 of class work. But you also need four years of on
9 the job experience and that requires usually a lot
10 more than four years to obtain to get the
11 opportunity for that. In order to be on this job
12 site as an apprentice, you would need at least two
13 years of experience and training in order to get
14 to at least level 2, if not higher.
15 So these types of jobs are very
16 important when you start building the generating
17 station, and they are major opportunities offered
18 by this project for people to get the experience
19 required to become fully qualified carpenters and
20 electricians.
21 All of the jobs in the generation
22 project on the job site will be union jobs, and
23 there has to be a collective agreement in place
24 for this project to proceed. The Burntwood Nelson
25 Agreement in the past is being renewed. It has
3006
1 not been renewed yet. So that at this point in
2 time we are making assumptions about what types of
3 BNA will emerge for this project, and other
4 generation projects for the next decade or so.
5 When we looked at this information and
6 we took into account the things that Ed Wojczynski
7 was talking about earlier, in terms of pre-project
8 training, the likely preference policies that we
9 think will emerge, the on the job training, and
10 the negotiated contracts that will probably take
11 place with NCN, we came to some estimates of what
12 we thought the job capture would be by northern
13 Aboriginal residents and by NCN. And we thought
14 that during the access road, infrastructure and
15 camp phase, that perhaps up to 90 percent of these
16 jobs might end up going to northern Aboriginal
17 residents. In the case of the generating
18 construction phase where there is a lot more prior
19 skill and experience required, our range was
20 something in the order of 31 to 42 percent might
21 go to northern Aboriginal residents.
22 These are fairly optimistic ranges
23 compared to the experience with Limestone where
24 the average experience during the construction was
25 around 25 percent going to northern Aboriginal
3007
1 residents. It reflects the extra effort, the
2 experience and the dedication of the parties to
3 try and achieve more than was achieved in the
4 past.
5 I would say in conclusion looking at
6 this, that you see just numbers here, but in each
7 case when somebody gets the opportunity to get
8 this type of experience and training, there is a
9 lot more to it than just the hours on the job and
10 the dollars, there is the entire experience that
11 you get and the future that it changes for you if
12 you are successful in dealing with it. It is
13 quite a change for an individual to have the
14 opportunity to successfully get the experience
15 that these types of projects offer.
16 Looking beyond just the jobs
17 themselves, the construction will include northern
18 business opportunities through negotiated
19 contracts being pursued with NCN. Limited
20 opportunities may also be available for
21 entrepreneurs to start small businesses. If a
22 contract cannot be negotiated with NCN, it will be
23 dealt with through restricted or open tendering.
24 And most contracts, including the general civil
25 contract for the generation project, will be
3008
1 through open tender.
2 To summarize, all of the things that
3 we have been talking about through the
4 environmental impact statements, the physical
5 environment, the aquatic, the terrestrial and
6 socioeconomic and the heritage, if we look at the
7 Wuskwatim generation, the key is it has been
8 specifically designed to be a low impact project.
9 As described earlier by George and others, the low
10 head design, keeping it to 200 megawatts rather
11 than 350, was selected to reduce the impact of
12 flooding. The modified operation, the run of
13 river operation, balancing inflows and outflows on
14 a daily basis most of the time, 97 and a half
15 percent of the time, was selected to modify the
16 impacts and control the impacts on the
17 environment.
18 Operation will reduce water level
19 fluctuations on an annual basis on Wuskwatim Lake
20 and limit the extent of water fluctuations
21 downstream from what they would have been if you
22 didn't take that type of operating approach.
23 Environmental and cultural
24 considerations are incorporated into the route
25 selection and the management of the access road
3009
1 through an access management plan among other
2 things. Environmental protection plans are to be
3 developed as required by the guidelines before
4 construction starts to ensure that work is carried
5 out so as to meet the regulatory requirements that
6 emerge from this hearing process and the final
7 decisions of the regulators, and from the proven
8 environmental protection practices that have been
9 established through past experience.
10 If we look at Wuskwatim transmission
11 project and summarize the overall conclusions of
12 the EIS documents, we see that it too has been
13 designed to minimize the effects on the
14 environment, and all of the environments that we
15 have been talking about. The potential effects
16 from the transmission project have been or will be
17 minimized through careful selection of the
18 proposed routes which will take into consideration
19 the effects on the environment, effects on people,
20 areas of concern, as well as the costs of choices.
21 Suitable design and construction
22 standards and practices. Transmission development
23 is not something that happens only once every 10
24 or 20 years, it has been happening on a regular
25 basis in this province. It has been licensed on a
3010
1 regular basis. There has been experience
2 developed and practices and standards that can be
3 applied again and again and can be improved on.
4 Application of Manitoba Hydro's standard
5 environmental protection practices is therefore
6 important.
7 The use of local and traditional
8 knowledge in the selection of routes and in the
9 careful review of what happens as the routes are
10 developed is important in terms of managing and
11 designing to minimize effects on the environment
12 and on people.
13 And finally the development of
14 environmental protection plans is required in the
15 guidelines before construction starts, and
16 outlines site specific measures will also play an
17 important role.
18 So overall in summary, the Wuskwatim
19 transmission and generation projects have been
20 designed to avoid and minimize adverse effects on
21 the environment and on people. They are expected
22 in our reports to create no significant adverse
23 effects, as we use this type of terminology for
24 environmental assessment. No significant adverse
25 effects on the environment or related effects on
3011
1 people.
2 Adverse effects will occur in some
3 areas. For example, there will be some increased
4 erosion in the first five years, and it will
5 continue to show effects over the next 20 years
6 after that. And there will be land use changes
7 and habitat changes where transmission lines are
8 developed. There will be changes in short to the
9 environment. But we do not, having looked at it
10 using the standards that we are supposed to use,
11 believe and conclude that these changes will be
12 adversely significant or likely to be significant.
13 Positive biophysical effects will
14 likely result from displacing global greenhouse
15 gas emissions from the sales from Wuskwatim being
16 used to reduce emissions from plants outside of
17 this jurisdiction, and from reducing annual
18 fluctuations in levels at Wuskwatim Lake that were
19 caused by the Churchill River Diversion in the
20 1970s.
21 Also positive socioeconomic effects
22 are likely to result during construction and
23 operation for people in the local region, meaning
24 NCN and the Thompson area in particular, of the
25 projects as well as throughout the whole province
3012
1 from the economic activity developed and the long
2 term water rentals and rate reductions that come
3 from these types of projects, or lower rates than
4 would have otherwise occurred.
5 In summary the project is seen to have
6 these types of conclusions in the environmental
7 impact statements that have been provided to the
8 public and reviewed to date in these hearings.
9 And that I think summarizes the end of
10 the environmental impact statement presentation.
11 Ed, did you want anything more to say in
12 conclusion? Councillor Thomas will provide some
13 concluding statements on behalf of all of us.
14 MR. THOMAS: As you have witnessed
15 from the presentation that has been done, we've
16 focused on providing you with information on the
17 whole project itself, what it all entails, an
18 access road going in to the Wuskwatim area from
19 mile 17.
20 You will also see that we've included
21 information on what is actually going to be at the
22 site where the dam is being proposed to be built.
23 We have a construction camp that will be set up
24 there. We also have the project itself that will
25 be situated, not on Wuskwatim Falls, but on
3013
1 Taskinigup Falls. And we see -- we have been
2 provided with information on what kind of effects
3 that this project will have. We have looked at
4 other alternatives as well. We have found that
5 through our exploration of needs for and
6 alternatives to, that the project in and of itself
7 displaces coal, gas and nuclear forms of energy.
8 But it does work to supplement or add to, or can
9 work together with other forms of energy such as
10 wind. We have also gone into the environmental
11 impact statement itself, what that all entailed.
12 We have come to the conclusions that there will be
13 very minimal impacts to the environment as a
14 result of our people's involvement in this
15 process.
16 If I may take you back a little bit,
17 we negotiated a 1977 Northern Flood Agreement
18 quite a while back in 1977. That framework proved
19 to be problematic for us as NCN, so prior to some
20 time in the early 90's we decided that we were
21 going to pursue a different avenue. It used to be
22 that non-Aboriginal consultants, lawyers,
23 engineering, you name them, they were in total
24 control pretty well of that particular process.
25 It wasn't very fruitful for our people. So Chief
3014
1 and Council back, I believe, in 1992 decided to
2 take the bull by the horns and take the lead role
3 in addressing the needs of NCN. Shortly
4 thereafter in 1996, an agreement was concluded.
5 It was brought to the people for their
6 consideration, and it was officially ratified, I
7 believe it was in March 1996.
8 And that agreement provided for an
9 article 8 process that requires that if there is
10 to be any future development that is to occur
11 within our traditional territory, that Manitoba
12 Hydro would be obligated to come to us first to
13 obtain our consent and to deal with compensation
14 issues prior to them starting another project in
15 our territory.
16 We responded to the situation in a way
17 that is unique, and I like to think of it as
18 rather historical in the way that we responded to
19 the situation. We have included our people in
20 this process in a way that has never been done
21 before. We've established a future development
22 portfolio, and I hold that portfolio, but I also
23 have my colleagues from Chief and Council that
24 work with me. The ones that have been working
25 with me quite extensively have been members of
3015
1 Chief and Council. I note my colleague Councillor
2 Agnes Spence and my colleague Councillor Darcy
3 Linklater, Chief Jerry Primose, and the rest of my
4 other colleagues have been quite involved in this
5 process as well.
6 In addition to that, we have engaged
7 the article 8 process to obtain funding to ensure
8 that we can meet the obligations that are before
9 us. In doing that we ensured that our people were
10 the people that were working to provide us with
11 information that was needed from the community and
12 also to give the information to the community. So
13 we have hired quite a number of people to do that
14 kind of stuff.
15 In addition, we have used many of our
16 own people to work with the environmental
17 management team. The environmental management
18 team I should also note is a team that is made up
19 of all of these professionals over here, but at
20 the same time we did not rely solely on the
21 experts, or the status of these experts. We
22 wanted to ensure that our people were involved in
23 the field work that was done to collect the
24 necessary information on which the environmental
25 impact assessment has been done. So we've done a
3016
1 lot of work in that regard.
2 We have also hired our own advisors,
3 they are legal, financial, they include
4 engineering. But instead of them directing us, as
5 appeared to be the case in the Northern Flood
6 Agreement situation, we directed them as to what
7 we want from them this time around. So things
8 have changed considerably, and I think we have
9 produced a good product.
10 You will note from the presentations
11 that have been done we have focused significantly
12 in the areas in employment and training, trying to
13 make sure that our people are the ones that are
14 working on this project as much as possible. But
15 at the same time we have not closed the door on
16 others obtaining opportunities in this project as
17 well. So we've arrived at a fairly balanced goal
18 with respect to employment on this project. We
19 have also focused on business opportunities. We
20 look at contracts that we can have, some direct
21 contracts that we can negotiate where we can
22 ensure the employment of our people plus others as
23 the need may arise. In addition, we have also
24 been involved in a process that gives us
25 33 percent ownership, potential ownership, of this
3017
1 particular project. We started off with
2 10 percent and worked our way up to 17.5 to
3 25 percent and then finally came to a conclusion
4 with 33 percent. It hasn't been a very easy path
5 that we have been traveling on. It has been quite
6 lengthy. We have been involved in this process
7 for about five or six years already. So, we are
8 not going into this in haste. We are not rushing
9 into anything. We have many, many of our people
10 involved in -- under the future development team.
11 Many committees, we have sub committees charged
12 with specific responsibilities and areas to look
13 at.
14 So we have come to a lot of reasoned
15 analysis and decisions based on our involvement.
16 And I believe that we have come up with a very
17 good project. One that minimizes environmental
18 impact to the environment, and one that maximizes
19 the benefits available to NCN by being involved in
20 a project of this sort. So with that I welcome
21 the Commissioners and everyone else here to our
22 traditional territory where the City of Thompson
23 is situated. Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
25 We have now reached this momentous moment where it
3018
1 is your turn to get involved in the process.
2 There are two different parts to this opportunity
3 that is yours to intervene in the process, one is
4 to get additional information, clarification, et
5 cetera, where you come to ask questions of the
6 members of the panel that have made the
7 presentation. So that will be the first part.
8 Once you have completed that portion, we will
9 begin the portion where you make statements, where
10 you make a presentation, where you say why you
11 support this project and why, or if it is the
12 opposite, why you don't. Or you want to offer --
13 if it is views or opinions or suggestions that you
14 want to make, those are part of your presentation.
15 So we will begin. You have heard a
16 presentation, which is summarized but fairly
17 lengthy anyway. As you were sitting there
18 listening to it, perhaps questions have come to
19 your mind, and this is your opportunity. When we
20 were going through this in Winnipeg, the
21 Commission here had an opportunity to spend two
22 and a half days asking questions on the first
23 part, which was the needs for and the alternatives
24 to Wuskwatim. And we have started, we have had a
25 day and a half of questioning on the environmental
3019
1 impacts, and we are not finished with that. So,
2 we are not going to take this time to do that
3 today, we are going to give you the opportunity to
4 put in your questions. So the floor is open, if
5 you have questions come to one of the mikes,
6 either standing or at the table here, you are
7 welcome to come and ask your questions. Come
8 forward to the mike, identify yourself and ask
9 your questions.
10 MR. OSBORNE: Good afternoon panel,
11 Commissioners. I have a comment and a question.
12 In regards to --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Osborne?
14 MR. OSBORNE: Mr. William Osborne.
15 Thank you for reminding me. I have a question but
16 I also have a very, very deep concern about this
17 overall hearing process. English is not my
18 language. My language is in Cree. I'm very
19 concerned that the panel and the Commissioners did
20 not provide for me a translator. Mainly because
21 there is a lot of legal and technical language
22 that only technicians and legal people understand.
23 However, there are translators that can translate
24 the English language to my language so that I
25 understand the issues, the concerns, that have
3020
1 been expressed today. Will the Commissioners and
2 the panel respect and honour my language before we
3 proceed any further? I ask you that today. Thank
4 you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a comment that
6 you are making, Mr. Osborne, one that you made to
7 me at the break a while ago. And as I indicated
8 to you, if this had been raised with the panel
9 before we would have made -- we would have
10 endeavored to make every effort to try and
11 organize this. But no one raised that request
12 with us and, therefore, we have not come prepared
13 for that. We obviously, on the spur of the
14 moment, are able to do that. But I would also
15 tell you this; that there are many of these
16 technical words that you have heard about, I can
17 imagine some of them such as gigawatt, and demand
18 side management or other things of this nature are
19 also very technical for some of us, and are not
20 easily understood. But that is why, if you need
21 clarification about those, you have this
22 opportunity to ask for them now. I'm afraid that
23 it would not be easy to provide translation just
24 like that. And it would be a very lengthy process
25 and we would have had to make such arrangements
3021
1 beforehand. Unfortunately, as I stated before, I
2 think that in the announcements for these meetings
3 we had provided an indication that if we had such
4 requests, we would make attempts to organize this,
5 but we didn't hear any such requests. Sir.
6 MR. HART: (SPEAKING IN CREE)
7 I have come here to listen to your
8 presentation on the invitation of this hearing.
9 And I have spoken to you in my own language and
10 you are giving me this look that you didn't have a
11 clue what I was saying.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You are right.
13 MR. HART: And then this hearing, as I
14 understood that the translation wasn't provided.
15 But I'm not volunteering. But when you were doing
16 this presentation and you look at this vast
17 territory, have you ever seen an eroded beaver
18 pond, starting on an eroded beaver pond.
19 (SPEAKING CREE). This is what they are doing to
20 our land, just like an eroded beaver pond, when it
21 is no good, the beaver abandon that. That is what
22 you are going to do. (SPEAKING CREE). We came
23 here to try and listen to those of us that have a
24 small understanding of your language. But you
25 know, in your God given language you are borrowing
3022
1 words that they make up from other languages, that
2 is why the English language is so complicated.
3 Nobody can really understand what they are saying.
4 Especially now with modern technology, nobody can
5 translate for you word for word what you are
6 saying. And yet you came here with the intention
7 that we can come and listen to whatever
8 presentation that has been presented so far. But
9 who is going to speak for the seven generations
10 from now, what will they benefit from this
11 project? Our elders have spoke for us for the
12 past seven generations, but there is another seven
13 generations that have to be addressed as to what
14 they would benefit from this project.
15 And I thank you for your time, and I
16 know you people are impatient, but I came here
17 with a good conscience. Even though I was left
18 behind by some of our band members, nobody wanted
19 to offer me a ride, I had to hitchhike here, and
20 my wife is probably wondering where I am. But
21 somebody has to come and speak their mind. And
22 also what I have learned from our elders is you
23 can say what you want, but as long as you don't
24 swear. That is the main thing. You can say
25 anything you want as long as you don't swear in a
3023
1 mixed group like this, especially when there is
2 women around. But people intend to forget that
3 not all of us graduated from grade 12. Some of us
4 are Plasticine dropouts. Some of us never went to
5 school. I'm speaking for the elders there. They
6 didn't go to school. They don't know what is
7 going on.
8 But my question is why is this hearing
9 taking place when in your red Bible there you have
10 article 8.3? Why you pass by that? Because there
11 is something in that statement that had to be done
12 before you continue with these hearings. I thank
13 you for your time. (SPEAKING CREE).
14 I didn't intend to come up and speak,
15 but one of my brothers stated that he wanted to
16 hear something in his own language. Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, would you give us
18 your name for the record, please?
19 MR. HART: My Christian name or my
20 traditional name? I have got two.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Both please.
22 MR. HART: My Christian name is Nelson
23 Hart. (SPEAKING CREE) is my traditional name.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Megwetch. I will defer
25 this to Mr. Thomas, perhaps he can, and I
3024
1 understand that there are documents that were
2 provided of the proposed projects in Cree
3 syllabic. Perhaps Mr. Thomas wishes to make a few
4 comments in Cree at this time, or perhaps even
5 describe some of the basic features of the
6 proposal because I would be at a loss to do it. I
7 can do it in French for you, but some people will
8 say they can't hear that either.
9 MR. THOMAS: (SPEAKING CREE)
10 I apologize, I can't translate all of
11 that for you, Commissioner.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I realize that it was
13 probably a very lengthy question. I probably
14 asked you to summarize what the whole project was
15 about. And you seem to have done that.
16 Mr. Nepinak, you have a comment.
17 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 I would just like to invite the public here to,
19 you know, feel welcome to come and express in your
20 own language. Like the chair had said earlier, we
21 have been in Winnipeg for three weeks, and First
22 Nations have expressed their views regarding this
23 in their language. And we are in the process of
24 translating those areas that they presented. So I
25 would like to extend on behalf of the Commission
3025
1 here and as a member, feel free to, you know, make
2 your presentations, your questions in our own
3 language and we have I'm sure translators that
4 will help us down the road here to hear your
5 voice.
6 As you are aware, the hydro
7 developments first occurred in the south in the
8 Lake Winnipeg River. I think we have six dams,
9 you know, that our people sometimes still talk
10 about over there. So I just want to extend to
11 you, please feel free to express your
12 presentations in your own language. Megwetch.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Nepinak.
14 And of course, Mr. Thomas, will have to practice
15 in that regard. Yes. If you want to ask your
16 question in Cree, then Mr. Thomas can answer the
17 question, otherwise members of the panel will
18 answer in English, and eventually the record will
19 be translated. But I remind you all, this is a
20 period of time for questions. Ms. Matthews
21 Lemieux.
22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Yes. I just
23 want to indicate that there are two people who are
24 in the room, Jimmy D. Spence and Charlie James
25 Hart who are willing to translate for the
3026
1 Commission if that would be of assistance to them.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, that would be
3 useful. It would relieve Mr. Thomas for having to
4 do it all on his own. So if we do have people
5 able and willing to help in this regard, maybe
6 they can come forward. Can we find a chair at the
7 mike here where they could sit and help in this
8 regard?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to ask a
10 question in Cree?
11 MR. MOOSE: Either or.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: If you would like to
13 ask it in Cree, we would like to be able to
14 translate it immediately. Of course, simultaneous
15 translation, if we had been told in advance,
16 simultaneous translation takes preparation, and
17 technology-wise, we have to set up a booth and
18 somebody then translates as the words are spoken,
19 but that takes a great deal of preparation to have
20 established. So there is a chair here and a mike,
21 so as the questions are asked, maybe somebody can
22 answer, take turns to do that. So you can take
23 turns in translating. This gentleman wanted to
24 ask a question. You are deferring to him?
25 MR. MOOSE: Yes, he is giving me the
3027
1 opportunity to go first. My Christian name is Joe
2 Moose. My name predecesses Columbus, Joe Mooswa
3 (ph). I am proud to say my name is over 20,000
4 years old in this region, my last name that is.
5 My concern is this negotiated contracts being
6 pursued with NCN, if you will notice that in the
7 handout. I would like to say for the record I'm
8 in support of this project. I'm currently
9 unemployed and looking to, how would you say,
10 access a job. I have grade 12 as well as I
11 graduated from university. I guess in the past,
12 and if the panel doesn't mind, I will turn around
13 and talk to the people.
14 I guess in the past the way Hydro has
15 dealt with us as a people, and it is how would you
16 say, my comments in no way are, how do you say, to
17 shed light on the new way that Hydro is doing
18 business as it is now. But I guess it is in
19 regards to negotiated contracts being pursued with
20 NCN. And my question is this: It says limited
21 opportunities may also be available for
22 entrepreneurs to start a small business or as a
23 result of Wuskwatim spinoffs. My question is
24 this; in there I don't see the guidelines as to
25 what type of criteria will be in place to see who
3028
1 actually qualifies for these so called spinoff
2 contracts and what type of, how would you say,
3 rules and guidelines would be in place prior to
4 the construction of the project to ensure that
5 everybody feels that they have been treated with
6 equality and fairness? And the reason why I pose
7 that question is because, how would you say, in
8 the past, and before some of you were probably
9 still in college here, your predecessors from
10 Manitoba Hydro came to us in good faith and said
11 there will be this and this and this, and 50 years
12 later, I should say 30 some odd years later, I see
13 very few of my fellow band members benefiting from
14 hydroelectric projects.
15 And when I say this, this is not an
16 attack on Manitoba Hydro, but merely a reality
17 that exists. I go to Winnipeg quite a bit. I
18 have seen the big office at Taylor Avenue. I see
19 a lot of big offices all over the place. I also
20 meet -- one time I met 67 Hydro semis heading up
21 north to do work somewhere around the Lynn Lake
22 region. While I was driving I had to ask myself
23 this, if all of the work is up north, why are
24 these trucks coming from the south, why aren't
25 these jobs stationed like in Thompson? It is
3029
1 quite a well organized, structured setting. My
2 question is this, everything in the world revolves
3 around politics, does politics have it that the
4 Province of Manitoba -- I wish there was a
5 Government representative here -- have it that the
6 south again will get a better deal than the north?
7 And this doesn't have nothing to do with NCN
8 Government or Manitoba Hydro as a whole. Like the
9 presentation was stated earlier, the north should
10 be given equality and fairness, like (SPEAKING
11 CREE). That is a very common word in our Cree
12 language (SPEAKING CREE). That means being
13 unemployed, being homeless, jobless, like what
14 future do you really have, and when I ask myself
15 this, here is a new term for some of the people
16 here you might have not heard, a large portion of
17 multi-conglomerate companies like I.B.M. and stuff
18 like that, they are outsourcing jobs to India.
19 You have read that in the Time magazine. Three
20 million U.S. jobs have been outsourced to India.
21 Because people in India work for one fifth of the
22 pay of Americans.
23 So my question is this, when I come
24 down to Taylor Avenue, I have seen hundreds and
25 hundreds of computer terminals, Taylor Avenue,
3030
1 that big building there, as well as other Hydro
2 infrastructure sites around Winnipeg. My question
3 is this: Why couldn't a building of that
4 magnitude be put in Nelson House to guarantee
5 permanent ongoing jobs? This thing has been in
6 the planning process for many years. And when I
7 ask you this, the people from Hydro, it is a
8 challenge to you, not only to go beyond the good
9 work that Mr. Thomas has done and our Chief and
10 Council, but to envision even a different future
11 where 30 or 40 years from now 25 percent of the
12 jobs should be up north where the hydro is being
13 generated. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I fail
14 to see that concept where the destruction and
15 devastation is up north and there is 5,000 plus
16 jobs in Winnipeg. But according to the last time
17 I checked, the Hydro flows south. So I fail to
18 see why there is not a large office building like
19 Taylor Avenue here in Thompson where people can
20 sit, and some of them First Nations people, sit at
21 the computer terminal and type in stuff, process
22 invoices and stuff like that.
23 Right now, if you phone Visa, chances
24 are you could be phoning somebody in India and say
25 could I have my balance and the guy from India is
3031
1 going to say, yes, Mr. Moose, your balance is
2 zero, no available credit because you are
3 unemployed. But that is beside the fact. That's
4 what I'm saying. So my question is that in
5 today's modern day context where you guys have
6 bosses above you, like Bob Brennan, and I guess
7 the Premier of Manitoba, would politics have it
8 that a larger segment of the jobs that are
9 meaningful and long term can be based out of
10 Thompson and Nelson House, to how would you say,
11 shed light on that so called good business that
12 you want to do with First Nations people.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The
14 question came back about four times. But I think
15 the question was basically at the end asked again.
16 Would you translate the question, just the
17 question please, not all of the speech, because
18 this is supposed to be a question. So translate
19 the question and we will get to the answer. The
20 question to the effect --
21 THE TRANSLATOR: (SPEAKING IN CREE)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Thomas,
23 do you want to provide some of the reply to that?
24 And maybe you want to have some of your colleagues
25 involved as well because the question was asked in
3032
1 English. Mr. Adams.
2 MR. ADAMS: In this case I think it is
3 probably better that I try to reply, and I'm sure
4 Councillor Thomas or the translators will give it
5 the best shot afterwards. As I understand the
6 question, is it possible for Manitoba Hydro to
7 create more job opportunities in Northern
8 Manitoba, specifically places like Thompson and
9 Nelson House. Manitoba Hydro is a very complex
10 organization. We have offices in most major
11 centres throughout the province and a lot of
12 the -- a large percentage of the people that we
13 have employed for us are actually involved in
14 customer service activities. And in those cases
15 it really does make sense for them to be close to
16 the customer, whether that happens to be in
17 Dauphin, or Brandon, or Neepawa, or Winnipeg, or
18 as most people know, we have a fairly significant
19 customer service centre here in Thompson. The
20 administrative staff -- the other thing that I
21 should mention is that we also have a tremendous
22 amount of activities directed at interests outside
23 of the province. As most people are probably
24 aware, we sell a significant amount of electricity
25 outside of the province. We have transmission
3033
1 interconnections with states and other provinces.
2 I think the best answer to the -- I don't know if
3 it is the best answer -- but a good answer to the
4 political question is we do have political masters
5 and it is most important that our senior staff be
6 reasonably close to the politicians. So there is
7 a compelling reason why we do have a significant
8 presence in Winnipeg. It is the political,
9 business, transportation centre of Manitoba, and
10 it is key to the success of many of our
11 activities.
12 The key to success of our generation
13 business is clearly here in the north. And again,
14 actually most of the generation is done in the
15 Gillam area, and we do have a very significant
16 work force based in Gillam, a big office in
17 Gillam. And we also have a very significant
18 presence here in Thompson. I don't know what the
19 numbers are offhand, but we do have a lot of
20 people.
21 A key consideration in wherever we put
22 a building is the functions that will be performed
23 there, the assurance that we need to get adequate
24 supply of the appropriate types of people, and
25 clearly communication systems.
3034
1 The one point that I do think is
2 important to make, on these construction projects
3 we are making a concerted and continuing effort to
4 ensure that the majority, or as many jobs as
5 possible can be picked up and maintained,
6 retained, by northern residents. We will ensure
7 that in the contracts and in the labour agreements
8 there are preferential clauses for northern
9 Aboriginal people and other northern residents.
10 I think I heard a question very early
11 on is who qualifies for the set aside contracts.
12 The main qualification is that you are capable of
13 doing the job. And we don't take that lightly.
14 Obviously, the last thing we need is somebody to
15 take on a job that's bigger than they can do and
16 go broke doing it. But certainly we work with the
17 local Chief and Council. We will work with the
18 local contractor associations, and we will break
19 up the work to the extent that we can to make sure
20 that local entrepreneurs are in a position to bid
21 on the work, do it successfully, make a profit
22 doing it and come back and do it for us again the
23 next time.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Adams.
25 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Chairman, if I may
3035
1 add to that final comment by Mr. Adams. We have
2 been engaged in a process where we have tried our
3 utmost to be very fair to everyone in the
4 community, Mr. Moose, where we, at least all my
5 colleagues from what I have seen, are not playing
6 any favorites with anybody. If you are a NCN
7 member who desires to get involved in some
8 business opportunity that is there, it is
9 identified, and you wish to be a part of it,
10 certainly you have an opportunity just like
11 everyone else to participate. But as Mr. Adams
12 indicated, you have to have the capacity to be
13 able to do the work that you are desiring to take
14 on without it resulting in you going into debt or
15 an inability to make money. We are exploring
16 ways, and there is not just one way to ensure that
17 our people can be involved in benefiting from the
18 set aside contracts. Nothing has been finalized
19 yet, but we are exploring a number of areas where
20 this kind of situation can be -- it can happen.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Do you wish
22 to take a stab at translating what Mr. Adams said?
23 The gist, the essential part of it.
24 MR. SPENCE: Good afternoon everyone,
25 my name is Jimmy D. Spence, one of the translators
3036
1 for the Government. And just to mention that,
2 Mr. Chairman, you mentioned about simultaneous
3 interpretation. If the equipment was here, I
4 think it would be a lot easier for Charlie and I
5 to interpret as people speak. Because sometimes
6 when you are writing down things like that, they
7 seem to talk a little faster than you can write,
8 so it makes it difficult to interpret. (SPEAKING
9 CREE).
10 Maybe just to make another comment
11 with respect to interpretation, those of you that
12 are making presentations and those of you
13 replying, could you make it short, and we can
14 signal you to stop so we can interpret and then
15 continue. Because like I said, it is very
16 difficult when you don't have the simultaneous
17 interpretation equipment.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you,
19 Mr. Spence. I thank you for reiterating the
20 comment that I made a while ago. This is the
21 period for questions. Questions don't take a
22 speech to accompany it. You will have ample
23 opportunity to appear to make your presentations
24 and your comments and views starting tonight and
25 tomorrow. This is the time to ask questions and
3037
1 those should be short. Thank you.
2 MR. SPENCE: (SPEAKING CREE).
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, sir, your
4 question.
5 MR. FORTIN: First I would like to
6 introduce myself, if I may. My name is Keith
7 Henry Fortin, and I come from Northern Manitoba.
8 I was born in Fort Churchill, Manitoba. And what
9 brings me to these hearings today is the Clean
10 Environment Commission. The first thing that I
11 would like to do is to apologize to the people at
12 the board, as I'm not very good with questions,
13 and because this is a matter in which regards our
14 environment, then I would like to kind of raise a
15 question that deals with the clean environment.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate, and I
17 hope that you will ask a question, and if it is to
18 make a presentation, you will have tonight and
19 tomorrow to do that.
20 MR. FORTIN: I have been told that I
21 only get to come up to the mike once.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not right.
23 MR. FORTIN: Okay. My question
24 through this process, I have seen some things on
25 fish. One of the things that I do know and my
3038
1 father was a pilot in Northern Manitoba for 45
2 years. I have been traveling Northern Manitoba
3 all of my life. I have worked with Manitoba Hydro
4 in creating winter roads that access their
5 communities, that bring fuel in to the very
6 generating systems that bring the power into these
7 communities of Tadoule Lake, Brochet and Lac
8 Brochet.
9 In the past I have dealt with having
10 to open a winter road in South Indian Lake in
11 fluctuating water table that that brought the
12 water levels above the ice and created
13 catastrophic operating conditions for ourselves.
14 Manitoba Hydro has never really gone in to help
15 us. We have moved our winter roads, with my
16 father I have moved the winter roads with the
17 province from Lynn Lake to Brochet to Lac Brochet.
18 My father recently passed on due to a lot of
19 stress brought on to him by the Province of
20 Manitoba in these job related projects.
21 My job with the construction was to
22 maintain and build a winter road to access Tadoule
23 Lake to bring the fuel in that powers up the
24 diesel generating systems in these areas. One of
25 the problems that I had with the South Indian Lake
3039
1 route is the safety, and the concern of truck
2 drivers and operators that would have to work on
3 South Indian Lake and fluctuating water levels as
4 well as the breaks in the ice that take place
5 while you are doing this type of work.
6 One of the other problems that I had
7 was fuel spillage taking place on South Indian
8 Lake and all lake systems that have fuel going
9 into these communities. So the design and
10 implementation of an overland structured route to
11 stop the diesel fuel spillage in to the water
12 systems was essential. So we addressed the
13 province and had done this, and even after we did
14 this, good thing we did, we had fuel tankers go
15 into these places and break hoses and lines off
16 and dump literally full tankers of fuel right
17 across Northern Manitoba. This I have witnessed
18 since I was the one that developed the road and
19 knocked all of the trees down.
20 During this process, my father was not
21 treated fairly as an Aboriginal person. We were
22 all Aboriginal -- I was the only non-status -- I
23 can't call myself an Indian because I'm Metis -- I
24 was the only person that was not of the status
25 people that worked on this project. And we ran
3040
1 into all different kinds of problems even in
2 payment. Now, $750,000 for a guy that has wired
3 200 homes in Northern Manitoba in these
4 communities for KTC, and as well done all of the
5 work, rough-ins, whatever type of work that we
6 have done in Northern Manitoba as Northern
7 Manitobans, we have ended up taking a slap. It is
8 like the province turned around and said, well, we
9 owe you the money, but hey, that is the way it
10 goes.
11 My problem is when we go into
12 development. I was trained in 1986 with a company
13 called Limestone Training Agency which trained me
14 as a heavy equipment operator for Limestone.
15 After receiving training with Limestone Training
16 Agency I contacted Bechtel-Kumagai, who was the
17 leading general contractor on the Limestone
18 project who in turn told me you got your training,
19 but you don't have the experience. So in the
20 result, I did not get a job with the Limestone
21 Generating Project as a trained certified heavy
22 equipment operator on the job because I did not
23 have the experience. I had the training but no
24 experience.
25 My concern is that in Northern
3041
1 Manitoba we try -- there are people that live up
2 here -- we try to do things on our own sometimes
3 just to no avail, it seems that somebody wants to
4 paint a picture that we don't have the ability to
5 do these things on our own. I will let you know,
6 in 1937 my grandfather created hydroelectric power
7 on the south river system. And as far as Jerry
8 Primrose's earlier comment about trappers and how
9 we have lost the ability to know how to do these
10 things, well, I'm here to say that is not true. I
11 was brought up trapping, I was brought up fishing
12 and I was brought up just like the rest of my
13 brothers behind me.
14 And in these environments, when we
15 mess with them, we alter this or that, we end up
16 with a devastating process that implicates us one
17 way or the other. When I listened earlier about
18 the size of low head dam and everybody is worried
19 about the magnitude or the flooding -- the
20 Churchill River Diversion, as I mentioned earlier,
21 my father was a pilot for 45 years in Northern
22 Manitoba, the whole system from South Indian Lake
23 right to Limestone is messed up. There is no
24 turning it around, it is gone. There is no
25 cleaning it up. My only concern is why didn't
3042
1 Hydro do something like this 30 years ago, and had
2 a couple of head dams and created more power? We
3 wouldn't be sitting in this problem today. I mean
4 every time Hydro makes some money, Gary Doer jumps
5 in the dip fund and pulls it all out and gives it
6 away. How are we going to create anything, if we
7 allow our province -- they should be accountable
8 for the monies and what they do at their office
9 levels. I mean, you take a look at some of these
10 communities that are accessing this general --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: You did tell me, sir,
12 it would lead to a question. I'm still waiting.
13 MR. FORTIN: The question is, is the
14 province and Manitoba Hydro willing to go back to
15 the drawing table on the 33 percent in which they
16 are willing to give? Is that 33 percent of the
17 one dam head or is that 33 percent of all of the
18 rest of them that are within the Province of
19 Manitoba?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: That is the question.
21 Okay. The question is regards the 33 percent of
22 the one dam versus other dams. That is the
23 question that you are asking now. That is your
24 question, sir?
25 MR. FORTIN: One of my other main
3043
1 questions was, I mentioned that I was a Metis
2 person, and being a Metis person a lot of times
3 you end up sitting in the back of things. Well, I
4 have done a significant amount of work for my
5 brother.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: We have heard that,
7 sir, but I thought you were going to help me
8 understand what was the other question. So tell
9 me what the other question is then.
10 MR. FORTIN: The question is will
11 Manitoba Hydro and the province and
12 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation stand up and recognize
13 the rights of Metis people due to the constitution
14 in 1982, and recognize us that we are people that
15 should be involved in these processes, and I'm
16 just wondering right now if we are or not?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have two
18 questions.
19 You are going to tackle
20 that, Mr. Thomas.
21 MR. THOMAS: The first question that
22 was asked, the discussions and negotiations that
23 NCN has had with Manitoba Hydro has been to focus
24 on that one specific dam, which is the Wuskwatim
25 project. And that is the share of our 33 percent
3044
1 that we are looking at. We are not looking at the
2 entire Hydro system throughout the entire province
3 and acquiring a 33 percent ownership to that. Our
4 focus has been on just 33 percent ownership of
5 Wuskwatim, which is significant in and of itself.
6 And with regard to the second
7 question, the constitution provides us with an
8 idea, or the term Aboriginal is included in the
9 constitution. And the Supreme Court cases have
10 defined Aboriginal to include Metis, Inuit, and
11 Indian people. And within that context, when we
12 are speaking of Aboriginal, the Metis are included
13 in that definition.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Adams.
15 MR. ADAMS: I will try to give a short
16 answer. Manitoba Hydro is not considering
17 allowing anybody to buy into existing dams. It is
18 not allowed under the Manitoba Hydro Act. And
19 even if it was, I don't think it would be in our
20 interest to pursue that. I also want to clarify
21 that we are not giving 33 and a third percent to
22 Nisichawayasihk. We are giving NCN the
23 opportunity to invest, to acquire 33 and a third
24 percent. There is a very significant difference.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3045
1 MR. ADAMS: The second question is we
2 recognize Metis. We have engaged in
3 consultations, discussions with all of the
4 Northern Affairs communities where the majority of
5 Metis people in Northern Manitoba live. And
6 certainly in the benefit programs, the preference
7 programs and similar sorts of mechanisms that are
8 involved, we consider Metis to be Aboriginal.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, just wait.
10 Translation first of all.
11 (CREE TRANSLATION)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Did you
13 wish to add to that?
14 MR. SPENCE: I just wanted to mention,
15 Mr. Chairman, with respect to the presentation
16 that the gentleman on the left side did here with
17 respect to the project that saw the impacts and
18 all of that, we did an interpretation of that, of
19 the whole EIS summary, and it is on a Power Point
20 presentation. Like the English is there, but the
21 voice background is in Cree. When some of the
22 people were saying if this could be interpreted, I
23 don't know if we can locate that disk with that
24 presentation on it. And if we do, I was just
25 wondering, I ask you, Mr. Chairman, if there would
3046
1 be time either today or tomorrow or in the evening
2 to show that Power Point presentation? I think
3 that those people that we were doing the
4 interpreting for will get a good understanding of
5 what was presented here today.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will
7 inquire about that, and perhaps if we can, come up
8 with that, perhaps we can input that tomorrow
9 morning, as a presentation tomorrow morning. I'm
10 seeing signals from counsel for the proponents
11 that that would be possible for tomorrow morning.
12 This being past 5:00 o'clock, we will adjourn for
13 the time -- sorry, you said you wanted to add
14 something?
15 MR. SPENCE: I just want to interpret
16 what I said. (SPEAKING CREE).
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Before
18 everybody goes, we will reconvene at 7:00 o'clock
19 for further presentations this evening. And the
20 Commission secretary wishes to say something.
21 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, it may be
22 more appropriate if the presentation in Cree could
23 be made available for this evening. Tomorrow our
24 schedule is quite tight in terms of other
25 presentations that are registered. Would it be
3047
1 available this evening?
2 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: We don't have
3 it in the hall. They are driving to Nelson House
4 to get them and bring them back.
5 MR. GREWAR: It may be easier,
6 Mr. Chairman, for this evening in terms of timing.
7 How long is the presentation?
8 MR. SPENCE: The presentation itself
9 is about, I think it is about an hour, a little
10 lower, about 45 minutes.
11 MR. GREWAR: So, it would be easier to
12 accommodate it this evening, and in fact there may
13 be more able to attend in the evening than during
14 the day. So it may be a better time if it could
15 be made available tonight at 8:00 o'clock even.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: If we can get it here
17 and have it for this evening, certainly. So we
18 will play it by ear until we find out if it is
19 available this evening.
20 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm advised
21 that the people have gone to get it and they have
22 also gone to pick up the simultaneous translation
23 equipment so that should hopefully help speed
24 things up.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So we will
3048
1 hopefully have that tonight. And we will pass it
2 on tonight.
3
4 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 5:05 P.M.
5 AND RECONVENED AT 7:00 P.M.)
6
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, we
8 indicated prior to the break for dinner that there
9 was a possibility we could arrange for having
10 simultaneous translation for this evening. This is
11 not possible just yet. It may be that when we have
12 the midway break for the evening, that it might be
13 possible to install things at that time, but it's not
14 yet possible.
15 We will proceed to begin the evening, as we
16 indicated when we began this afternoon, with some
17 presentations. We have so far two presentations that
18 have been indicated to us. So I will call upon first
19 Mr. Darryl Montgomery of the Metis Federation I
20 believe. Mr. Darryl Montgomery.
21 Sir, if you would proceed to introduce
22 yourself and Mr. Grewar will then go on to swear you
23 in.
24 MR. MONTGOMERY: My name is Darryl Montgomery.
25 I'm with the Manitoba Metis Federation.
3049
1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Montgomery, are you aware
2 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly
3 mislead this Commission?
4 MR. MONTGOMERY: Don't accuse me. I haven't
5 even started. Just kidding, yeah.
6 MR. GREWAR: Then do you promise to tell only
7 the truth in proceedings before this Commission?
8 MR. MONTGOMERY: Yes.
9 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir.
10
11 (DARRYL MONTGOMERY: SWORN)
12
13 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed.
14 MR. MONTGOMERY: Good evening, Elders, Clean
15 Environment Commission and all in attendance today.
16 My name is Darryl Montgomery and I am the
17 Vice-President of the Manitoba Metis Federation.
18 The MMF is a self-government representative of
19 the Metis Nation within Manitoba. Our authority to
20 represent the Metis people is through transparent
21 ballot box elections held every three years in which
22 every Metis citizen has the right to vote.
23 My submission here today will be very brief as
24 our main submission by the MMF is still to be brought
25 to the CEC in a few weeks in Winnipeg. I do however
3050
1 want to make some brief comments on Manitoba Hydro
2 Development and its effect on the Metis people. I
3 also want to talk about Manitoba Hydro's and
4 Manitoba's continued refusal to deal with the MMF.
5 I, along with Judy Mayer, the VP of The Pas
6 region accompanied our technical people in conducting
7 our own internal consultations with our people.
8 There were ten Wuskwatim workshops across Northern
9 Manitoba and one in Winnipeg with almost 300 Metis
10 representing 35 locals and completing 173
11 questionnaires in attendance. Over and over and
12 again, we heard three themes emerging from our
13 people; that the Metis Nation within Manitoba lands
14 and resources have been and continues to be affected
15 by Manitoba Hydro projects; that the Metis Nation
16 within Manitoba and our government, the MMF have been
17 totally ignored and not engaged in any consultation
18 process; and the Wuskwatim Generating Station and
19 Transmission Line projects will infringe upon and
20 interfere with our Metis title rights and interests;
21 that the Metis Nation within Manitoba believes the
22 projects will lead to a further erosion of our
23 culture because of its potential impacts on our
24 lands, waters and resources.
25 We believe that our -- that the co-proponents,
3051
1 NCN and Hydro, Manitoba and Canada, all have
2 obligations to meaningfully consult with and
3 accommodate the Metis as we are a distinct Aboriginal
4 people with collective rights.
5 The MMF represents the Metis people.
6 Community councils, community association,
7 individuals or other groups do not have the
8 jurisdiction to speak on our behalf regarding our
9 Metis collective right.
10 Invitation to open houses for the purpose of
11 distributing information which is attended by all
12 citizens is not an invitation to proper and
13 meaningful consultation required to be undertaken
14 with Aboriginal peoples. A Metis specific
15 consultation plan needs to be jointly designed by the
16 MMF, Hydro and Manitoba and implemented to negotiate
17 an agreement as to enable full and effective
18 participation of the Metis Nation.
19 Not consulting and accommodating the Metis
20 Nation is contrary to Section 35 of the Canadian
21 Constitution. It is also contrary to the Aboriginal
22 Justice Implementation Commission's recommendations
23 and Manitoba's pledge to implement those
24 recommendations.
25 Recommendation number 4.1 states,
3052
1 "Any future major natural resource
2 developments not proceed unless and
3 until agreements or treaties are
4 reached with Aboriginal people and
5 communities in the region including
6 the Manitoba Metis Federation and its
7 locals and regions who might be
8 negatively affected by such projects
9 in order to respect their Aboriginal
10 treaty or other rights in the
11 territory concerned."
12
13 We believe the meaning of this recommendation
14 is that Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro must consult with
15 and accommodate the Metis Nation through the MMF as a
16 representative of the Metis Nation.
17 This recommendation does not mean that
18 Manitoba or Hydro simply offers a take-it-or-leave-it
19 arrangement in the pre-project training initiative.
20 We were left out and were not spoken to until the
21 last minute and after Canada insisted we become
22 involved.
23 So in summary, please listen to the MMF's main
24 presentation in the coming weeks and the points I
25 have raised today will be elaborated upon. I am sure
3053
1 all your questions will be answered at that time.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Are you prepared to
3 answer questions?
4 MR. MONTGOMERY: It depends. What kind of
5 questions? No, not at this time. I don't think I'll
6 be prepared to answer questions.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: You are the one that provides
8 the answers when the questions are asked. I know
9 you're not one of the groups that's being funded to
10 intervene in this particular process. They are?
11 Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. You are saying that
12 there will be an official presentation. You are not
13 presenting on behalf of MMF tonight?
14 MR. MONTGOMERY: I'll be presenting again in
15 Winnipeg and at that time, I'll have -- I am here by
16 myself so it's not fair that you guys all gang up on
17 me. So I will wait until I have some of my
18 technicians maybe available to support me on some of
19 the questions that you might have. So with that,
20 thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you go. Is that
22 acceptable to members of the panel or members in the
23 room? What you're telling us is that there will be
24 another presentation which will be the official
25 presentation of MMF?
3054
1 MR. MONTGOMERY: Well, this is just --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: This is just --
3 MR. MONTGOMERY: Teaser.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Bedford.
5 MR. BEDFORD: We can wait until we return to
6 Winnipeg. We would have some questions of the
7 Manitoba Metis Federation. But as I say, they can
8 wait if this gentleman prefers that we ask his
9 colleagues in Winnipeg.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. All right then, Mr.
11 Montgomery, thank you for the presentation.
12 MR. MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I now call upon Mr. Bob Wall,
14 the Thompson Chamber of Commerce. Good evening, sir.
15 MR. WALL: Good evening.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like to introduce
17 yourself then Mr. Grewar will proceed to swear you
18 in.
19 MR. WALL: Yes, my name is Bob Wall. I am the
20 President of the Thompson Chamber of Commerce.
21 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Wall, are you aware that it
22 is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly mislead this
23 Commission?
24 MR. WALL: I am.
25 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell only the
3055
1 truth in proceedings before this Commission?
2 MR. WALL: I will.
3 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir.
4 MR. WALL: Thank you.
5
6 (BOB WALL: SWORN)
7
8 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed.
9 MR. WALL: As I said, my name is Bob Wall. I
10 am the President of the Thompson Chamber of Commerce.
11 My Chamber welcomes this Commission to our city. Our
12 message is short and concise.
13 We are pleased to see that the Commission
14 includes at least one Northern Manitoban. At least
15 one member is familiar with the region and
16 specifically familiar with this location. My Chamber
17 is encouraged that this Commission has come to one of
18 the locations that will receive the greatest
19 frontline impact from this project.
20 Our Chamber, as well as the citizens of
21 Thompson, are beginning to embark on the adventure of
22 fashioning a city that must transform itself from
23 reliance upon the mining industry to self-reliance.
24 As we work through this transition, the generating
25 station and, more importantly, the decision-making
3056
1 progress regarding this project are crucial to our
2 future.
3 I came to Thompson 20 years ago. For the past
4 15 years, I have been a partner in a Northern
5 Manitoba accounting firm. My clients are basically
6 from the immediate Thompson area but I do travel from
7 Norway House and Cross Lake in the south to Churchill
8 in the north. I have clients as far east as God's
9 Lake Narrows to Lynn Lake in the west. I have seen
10 the impact of past hydroelectric projects in
11 Manitoba.
12 This presentation will attempt to focus on the
13 following topics: environment, economy,
14 self-determination, skilled workforce and ongoing
15 reporting on the progress of the project.
16 As I travel through Northern Manitoba, I
17 repeatedly witness the environmental damage created
18 by flooding the rivers and lakes that feed the
19 hydroelectric dams. Even though I came to Thompson
20 after the damage was done and never saw it before the
21 flood, I can never get over the effect of the basic
22 scars upon our landscape caused by this flooding.
23 My Chamber and I realize that we cannot go
24 back to predevelopment days. We are encouraged that
25 this project will create minimum environmental damage
3057
1 on a waterway that is already damaged by continuous
2 flooding. We encourage Manitoba Hydro and its
3 partners to continue mitigation regarding this and
4 other affected waterways.
5 Since the Wuskwatim project will cause minimum
6 impact upon the environment, our Chamber does not see
7 an environmental reason for not continuing with this
8 project.
9 We see that a large quantity of reliable
10 energy is vital to our Province's economy. Electric
11 energy at a reasonable cost to the provincial users
12 as well as provincial export customers will assist
13 our economy and be part of the possible
14 transformation of Manitoba from a "have not" to a
15 "have" province. Just like the Province of Alberta
16 has built its economy on energy, we too can build
17 part of our economy upon sustainable energy
18 generation.
19 These types of projects can enhance the
20 economy of Northern Manitoba. This project will
21 bring training to our unskilled workforce.
22 Hydroelectric development is an excellent way to
23 build infrastructure in the province and to expand
24 the northern frontier.
25 Our local economy is becoming more reliant on
3058
1 a healthy Aboriginal based economy. The Aboriginal
2 peoples are our new economy. The mining industry has
3 become the old economy. Even if more significant
4 mineral discoveries are made in the next decade, we
5 realize that a new discovery will not build a new
6 city or town or provide ongoing sustainable cash flow
7 for the north. To our Chamber members, an Aboriginal
8 based economy fed by the eventual cash flows from the
9 partnerships in hydroelectric projects will continue
10 to provide us with a healthy customer and consumer
11 base.
12 An Aboriginal based economy for Thompson means
13 expanding our position as a Northern Manitoba service
14 centre. A strong Aboriginal based economy will
15 enhance Thompson as a medical, political,
16 educational, shopping and recreation centre for the
17 surrounding region.
18 Chief Primrose and his council have prepared a
19 direction for their First Nation that will make its
20 best efforts to turn dependence on social assistance
21 and government programs into self-reliance. The
22 proposed partnership with Manitoba Hydro is a key to
23 this direction.
24 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages
25 Manitoba Hydro and the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation to
3059
1 maintain its partnership as a basic linchpin to the
2 Wuskwatim project.
3 We, in northern Manitoba, have been quite
4 reluctant to follow the suggestions and imperatives
5 provided by experts imported to our region of the
6 province to provide us with direction. Quite often,
7 these experts have not walked a mile in our shoes.
8 They have no concept of life without their own type
9 of infrastructure. They do not realize the vastness
10 of our spaces and the difficulty of living in an
11 environment of poor roads, harsh weather, isolation
12 and the difficulties of communicating with the many
13 separate groups in Northern Manitoba. We live in a
14 unique part of the country. Over the years, we have
15 watched the experts set up poorly prepared programs
16 for us, tamper with our lives and ignore our special
17 needs. We sense now that these people again, as
18 good-hearted as they are, want to guide us to a
19 solution that meets their needs and not necessarily
20 ours.
21 In the case of the Wuskwatim project, it is
22 refreshing to see that a First Nation can determine
23 its own participation in this project. The
24 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation will determine if it
25 wants to participate. The upcoming decision will not
3060
1 be easy for them. Too many of the Band members have
2 painful memories of the last time Manitoba Hydro
3 approached them to build a hydro dam. We are
4 confident that they will be able to make a thoughtful
5 decision. No matter how they decide either for or
6 against, everyone must respect their decision. That
7 decision is important as any decision that can be
8 made by this Commission. We must allow the members
9 of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation the space required
10 to make this decision without interference.
11 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages
12 NCN to continue its process to a fair informed vote
13 regarding the decision to participate in the
14 Wuskwatim project.
15 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages
16 the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada
17 to include the decision of this upcoming vote in the
18 process of determining the future of the Wuskwatim
19 project.
20 Just like other parts of the province, we have
21 people who are unemployed and yet decent jobs go
22 unfulfilled. The Thompson Chamber of Commerce sees
23 this as one of the most significant detriments to
24 business expansion in Thompson and the surrounding
25 area. The basic life skills training provided in
3061
1 anticipation of this project as well as the ongoing
2 trades training will enhance our skilled labour pool.
3 Many of these new trainees will spend some time on
4 the construction of Wuskwatim, but more importantly
5 they will be able to assist in the reconstruction of
6 northern housing and other infrastructure long after
7 Wuskwatim has been built.
8 Should Wuskwatim be the beginning of a series
9 of hydroelectric construction projects, then the
10 training provided for this project might provide the
11 start to a good career for a current trainee.
12 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages
13 the ongoing training provided by NCN to its members
14 and other participants.
15 We realize that the hydroelectric construction
16 of the 1960s and '70s caused significant disruption
17 and damage to the First Nations peoples. We also
18 recognize that much of the damage was created by
19 misinterpreted promises as well as promises not kept.
20 We also realize that if these difficulties are
21 repeated, should Wuskwatim be built, the rift between
22 the peoples of the north will not be reconcilable.
23 Both partners must make their best efforts to ensure
24 that the aims, goals and benchmarks for this project
25 are clearly defined and that actual performance is
3062
1 consistently monitored to these benchmarks and goals.
2 Should this project continue, the Thompson
3 Chamber of Commerce encourages NCN and Manitoba Hydro
4 clearly and publicly announce the important
5 benchmarks for this project and they find an
6 effective way to report their progress to the
7 important stakeholders.
8 In conclusion, I thank you for allowing the
9 Thompson Chamber of Commerce to provide these
10 thoughts to your Commission. You are trusted with
11 very important decisions regarding this application.
12 We hope you will be able to gain all the information
13 required to make these decisions. The Thompson
14 Chamber of Commerce encourages the Band, Manitoba
15 Hydro, the Manitoba Hydro Board and you to support
16 this project. Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar, would
18 you please --
19 MR. GREWAR: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We would
20 assign Exhibit number OTH 1004 to the Thompson
21 Chamber of Commerce presentation to the Manitoba
22 Clean Environment Commission Wuskwatim Generation and
23 Transmission Project, OTH 1004.
24
25
3063
1 (EXHIBIT OTH 1004: Thompson Chamber of
2 Commerce presentation to the Manitoba Clean
3 Environment Commission Wuskwatim Generation
4 and Transmission Project)
5
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Just before I pass
7 on to questions, I want to advise the people standing
8 in the back that there's quite a few chairs available
9 throughout the room here. So if you wish to sit
10 down, you are welcome to do so.
11 Questions? Members of the Panel? Members in
12 the room, any participant in the room who wishes to
13 ask questions of Mr. Wall?
14 Come up to the mike, please. If you wish to
15 ask a question, you have to come up to the mike,
16 please, and identify yourself and you have to speak
17 to the presentation.
18 MR. MOOSE: Yes. Mr. Wall, currently does NCN
19 have a membership status at the table with the
20 Thompson Chamber of Commerce?
21 MR. WALL: I think some of the Band-owned
22 businesses may have a membership. Mystery Lake Hotel
23 may have a membership and there may be some
24 memberships out at the -- out in the community. But
25 I do not believe that the First Nation itself has a
3064
1 membership.
2 MR. MOOSE: Yes. Well, how do you say, given
3 that the magnitude of the project that is on the
4 horizon, how do you say, will the Chamber of Commerce
5 even though you've given us, how do you say, your
6 support pertaining to this project will the focus
7 change possibly on how business is conducted with the
8 First Nation or to that effect?
9 MR. WALL: I'm not quite sure what you're
10 getting at. I mean business is conducted with the
11 First Nation and the members of the First Nation and
12 the members of the Thompson Chamber of Commerce on a
13 daily basis and I hope that it will increase.
14 MR. MOOSE: I guess given the magnitude of
15 this project, as I've stated earlier, will the
16 economic impact of NCN upon Thompson be more positive
17 and, how do you say, a more meaningful relationship?
18 Will the Wuskwatim project, how do you say, give us
19 more input on how business is to be conducted in
20 Thompson as far as the perspective of the Thompson
21 Chamber of Commerce given what we bring to the table
22 now?
23 MR. WALL: I'm not quite sure what your
24 meaning of that question is. Like I say, business is
25 conducted on a basis. We provide the service as best
3065
1 we can. More business or less business will
2 determine how our members provide business. Are you
3 suggesting that the business practices have to change
4 in the community?
5 MR. MOOSE: No no. What I'm speculating is
6 let's just say you have 50 houses and those are
7 businesses, right?
8 MR. WALL: Um-hum.
9 MR. MOOSE: A lot of Chamber of Commerces
10 across Canada, the way they work for those that don't
11 know, is sometimes you have to get permission from
12 the local Chamber of Commerce to open up a new
13 business. So what I'm saying is for NCN members
14 that, you know, wish to open new businesses as they
15 pertain to supply and demand of the Wuskwatim
16 project, will they be welcome with, how do you say,
17 open arms by the Chamber of Commerce?
18 MR. WALL: The City of Thompson, its business
19 environment and its business community is not a
20 closed shop. Anybody can open up a business in
21 Thompson. We encourage by far local people to
22 participate. We consider NCN as a local area. We
23 consider the peoples there as our neighbours and our
24 friends and we would be encouraging them to establish
25 as many businesses as they wish to in the community.
3066
1 By far, that would be our goal.
2 MR. MOOSE: Okay. So in other words, you're
3 welcoming any future NCN business expansion into
4 various areas. Is it, how do you say, would be
5 beneficial to the economy of Thompson?
6 MR. WALL: Yes. We see a short-term benefit
7 from the construction project itself but we really
8 see an ongoing benefit because NCN will be a partner
9 in this project and in turn will be receiving a
10 portion of the dividends generated from this project
11 and in turn will be using those dollars, as we
12 understand it, to be spent back in its community and
13 to improve the lot of the people that are there. And
14 we look forward to having that economic engine
15 continue to grow and to prosper as our neighbour and
16 as a customer for our goods and services as well.
17 MR. MOOSE: I guess in closing for my
18 comments, thank you for supporting NCN. Thank you
19 very much.
20 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could we just get your name
21 for the record once again?
22 MR. MOOSE: Joe Moose.
23 MR. GREWAR: Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Mayer.
25 MR. MAYER: It's not a question, Bob. I think
3067
1 that for Mr. Moose's benefit and for the benefit of
2 the rest of the people who aren't aware of this,
3 Thompson Chamber of Commerce and Mr. Wall in
4 particular were very vocal supporters of NCN's
5 application for urban reserve status for the Mystery
6 Lake Motor Hotel. That's still an issue in this
7 community. Now that I think the casino issue is
8 probably off the table, the fact is that the Chamber
9 of Commerce were very supportive of NCN's application
10 in that regard.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't quite recognize the
12 question in that but it's on the record. Mr. Wall
13 heard a question.
14 MR. MAYER: Isn't that true?
15 MR. WALL: Yes, it is.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: It must be that I'm not
17 familiar with the tone. Mr. Wall, do you want to
18 respond to that question?
19 MR. WALL: I agree whole-heartedly, yes.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The answer is yes
21 whole-heartedly. Are there other questions? Yes?
22 MR. FRANCOIS: Hi, I'm not from the U.S.A.
23 Yeah, I had been listening.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you say your name for the
25 record, sir?
3068
1 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. Raymond Francois, Nelson
2 House, treaty number 934. I'd like to ask maybe a
3 couple of questions.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Please proceed.
5 MR. FRANCOIS: And I'd like to speak to --
6 I'm supposed to have a lawyer here representing me,
7 right, Nelson House?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: But at this point, the lawyer
9 will not ask questions for you, you will have to ask.
10 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. I'd like to ask, these
11 resources, there's going to be a lot of stuff coming
12 through these resources, right. You've been --
13 anyway, we're gonna sign anything, right? We didn't
14 sign nothing but if we do, are we going to lose our
15 treaty rights or our land resource? Are we going to
16 have anything to do with it?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you want to ask this
18 question of Hydro I believe, right?
19 MR. FRANCOIS: Whichever can answer that
20 question.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry?
22 MR. FRANCOIS: Whoever can answer that
23 question.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, right now, there's
25 only one gentleman that can answer that question and
3069
1 I think you want to ask the question of Hydro. And
2 Hydro will be back at that table in a while and you
3 can ask them the question because I think you want
4 them to respond, unless Mr. Wall sees himself
5 prepared to answer the question. Would you come back
6 to ask the questions in a short while or do you want
7 to ask a question on Mr. Wall now?
8 MR. FRANCOIS: Well, whichever is easy,
9 whichever is better. Like maybe I'll ask him. Let's
10 see if he has the right one. Who is the right one
11 I'm supposed to ask, Hydro or him?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: If that's the only question you
13 want to ask, then you have to ask the question to the
14 partners in the project which is NCN and Hydro and
15 they will be back at that table shortly to answer
16 questions and I invite you to come back in a short
17 while to ask that question again.
18 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. I'll ask again.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Right now the
20 questions are to Mr. Wall who represents the Chamber
21 of Commerce of Thompson. And anyone who has
22 questions of Mr. Wall is welcome to come to forward.
23 I guess, Mr. Wall, the Chamber of Commerce was
24 not only short and concise but clear as well.
25 MR. WALL: Thank you very much.
3070
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Are there
2 other people in the room at this time who wish to
3 make their presentation at this time who wish to come
4 forward and make a statement, express a view, an
5 opinion? We know we have some registered
6 participants who will make presentations tomorrow and
7 we had two that had registered before the break for
8 dinner but there may be others who have come in since
9 then and did not get an opportunity to register but
10 wish to make a presentation. If so, you are welcome
11 to come forward and make a presentation however long
12 or however short you wish to do.
13 I see none. And that being the case -- yes.
14 You can come to the table there or to the mike,
15 whichever you want. You can sit down if you wish and
16 speak in the mike. Just identify yourself first of
17 all.
18 MS. TROTTIER: My name is Rachelle Trottier.
19 I grew up here in Thompson. I'm a youth and I don't
20 speak for all youth. I'm a Metis youth though and
21 I'd just like to present some comments.
22 I have been concerned over the Hydro projects
23 since I was in university and have been following
24 along. And my comment basically is that I don't
25 think that we should pursue hydroelectric
3071
1 developments in our province because -- or in our
2 country because the fundamental issue here is our
3 energy economy and how wise we are with the power
4 that we do have. And until we answer the questions
5 of conservation, I don't believe that we should
6 explore further development.
7 I wonder when it will end. Here, Conawapa,
8 Keeyask Falls, Gillam Island, I just wonder when
9 are we going to answer that fundamental question of
10 how we are conservative with our energy that we have
11 to begin with. And on that note, I believe it's
12 possible and I think that there's hope.
13 I remember in Manitoba when nobody believed
14 that we would have gasoline without lead and yet it
15 happened. And I think that if we worked towards our
16 policy and legislation to ensure that we're all
17 conserving our energy, and it could be as simple as
18 the Minnesotan said, as low energy light-bulbs,
19 forcing everybody to use them. Couldn't we find our
20 megawatts there?
21 And on being a youth, I just want to say that
22 I don't ever want to see a time when the youth can't
23 go to the land and find a waterway that hasn't been
24 affected. That's all. Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any other person
3072
1 who wishes to come forth? Ms. Matthews Lemieux?
2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: We have the executive
3 summary of the EIS Power Point with Cree translation.
4 It's now available if you wanted to watch that at
5 some point this evening. I am also advised that the
6 translation is also set up now so that it can go as
7 well.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Do we have to take some
9 time to set this up or is this something that can be
10 set up very quickly?
11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: It's just with a
12 regular Power Point.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: And how will the translation,
14 it will be on the --
15 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: It's on the disk.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have said before the
17 break for dinner that if we could get this
18 presentation in Cree, we would present it this
19 evening. So we will proceed with that now and then
20 we will continue with questions of the proponents
21 after the presentation.
22 You can stretch your legs for a few minutes.
23 They will have to set this up.
24 (BRIEF RECESS)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, would you
3073
1 please sit down. Are we ready to proceed? Mr.
2 Thomas will make a few comments before we proceed.
3 MR. THOMAS: I have been advised by those that
4 have done the translations that this translation
5 effort was done prior to the submission of the
6 filings of the EIS documents. And I'm also advised
7 that this information has been filed with the
8 Commission at that time.
9 We had a team of four, sometimes five people
10 involved in the translation. That's Jimmy D. Spence,
11 Henry Wood, Terry Linklater, one of my colleagues,
12 Councillor Doug C. Linklater and Charlie James Hart I
13 believe. It took him about a month altogether.
14 Translation into Cree has been quite difficult. A
15 considerable period of time has been spent on
16 translating and then having to put it into this
17 format. So all together, it took about a month or so
18 to produce the translation effort. And I'm not quite
19 sure exactly how long it is but here it is.
20
21 (SLIDE PRESENTATION IN CREE)
22
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Can we have the
24 Hydro Panel back in front, please. We will continue
25 with the questions. There was one person at least
3074
1 that was trying to raise a question earlier. Yes,
2 this gentleman is coming back up. Thank you. Your
3 name, sir?
4 MR. FRANCOIS: Raymond Francois, Nelson House.
5 Yeah, I was going to ask the resources we have around
6 us, hey, are we going to lose all of it? Like I'm a
7 Treaty Indian, right. Do I lose my rights on
8 anything once things are signed? Because I wanted to
9 know what I'm going to sign for before I sign it. I
10 want to know the meaning of it. Sometimes you can
11 sign something that doesn't really mean what it is.
12 But if you go down deeper into the work, you can tell
13 exactly what it really means and what you're signing
14 for. You know, that's what I'd like to know.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The question has
16 been asked. Mr. Adams?
17 MR. ADAMS: On the simple question, are you
18 going to lose your treaty or Aboriginal rights if NCN
19 enters into agreement with Manitoba Hydro, no.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that no maybe or no for sure
21 or no absolutely?
22 MR. ADAMS: As far as I know, it's no
23 absolutely.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Can anybody else confirm that?
25 Mr. Thomas?
3075
1 MR. THOMAS: From the presentation that was
2 just done, when it comes to the protection of Treaty
3 and Aboriginal rights, there are certain obligations
4 that have to be met as per the Supreme Court's
5 decisions where a consultation has to -- a proper
6 consultation has to occur. And if there is to be any
7 impairment of any Aboriginal or Treaty rights, that
8 it must be minimal.
9 I think we've shown from our presentation that
10 the facts state that there will be very minimal
11 impairment of our treaty rights as per the
12 presentation and this does not mean that we will lose
13 our treaty rights. They will be impacted somewhat
14 but it's not a situation that involves losing those
15 Treaty rights.
16 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. I have one more question
17 here. As a member of Nelson House, I listened to the
18 elders what they say, hey. And they've got a pretty
19 good understanding what might happen and what's going
20 on and they know from before. So my point of view is
21 just go ahead and do or sign whatever I want, hey. I
22 ask the Committee a recommendation from the Elders.
23 They know, hey. That's why we must respect them and
24 listen to them. There's no partiality in eldership.
25 They are all the same. That's all I've got to ask.
3076
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
2 MR. THOMAS: I didn't understand the question.
3 Was there a question? No? Just a comment? Okay.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It was a comment made in
6 regards to the Elders.
7 MR. FRANCOIS: I'll say again, there's no
8 partiality, there's no difference between Elders,
9 right, they are all the same and we must respect
10 them. We must honour them. Of course, I read the
11 word of God and I'm not against anybody or anything.
12 But what I believe -- what I read is what I believe.
13 And I've seen it from the past many times. Of course
14 if we don't respect the Elders, we shorten our lives.
15 And I have seen it come to pass. There is no
16 difference. We must listen to them.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you. Other
18 questions?
19 MS. KOBLISKI: Hello.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: State your name, please.
21 MS. KOBLISKI: Carol Kobliski from Nelson
22 House. I was at the hearings in Winnipeg. I wasn't
23 here to hear everything from the beginning. I just
24 got in this afternoon. All of you people that are
25 sitting up here represent Hydro, right? No? Which
3077
1 ones do?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So you have your
3 answer. NCN and Hydro.
4 MS. KOBLISKI: Okay. I have a few questions
5 that have been addressed to me by some members. So
6 I'm just here to address them to Elvis Thomas and
7 some of the other people here that made some
8 comments.
9 One of the things that disturbs me is that
10 what jobs are guaranteed for our people? Are they
11 guaranteed in writing that our people are going to
12 benefit from this project? Like from my
13 understanding, our people have to be experienced
14 first before Hydro is going to allow them to work on
15 this project. How much experience are you asking for
16 from our people? Because from my understanding, they
17 just put out a notice in our community last month who
18 wants to go for training to be a carpenter and an
19 electrician and that takes quite a while to
20 accomplish.
21 So this is what I'm asking Elvis. What
22 guarantees are our young people going to have from
23 this project? Are they guaranteed these jobs, not
24 the low paying jobs but the higher jobs?
25 MR. THOMAS: The question that's being asked
3078
1 is one that we have long considered as a future
2 development team. We have asked to see what we can
3 do in looking at this project to ensure that we do
4 not repeat what happened with the Limestone project
5 where unfortunately our people were the last hired
6 and the first to be let go. And we looked at that
7 situation and made a conscious decision that we did
8 not want to have a repeat of that scenario with
9 regard to the Wuskwatim project.
10 We have tried to do our utmost as leaders and
11 also as negotiators on behalf of NCN to ensure that
12 training that is required is there for our people to
13 prepare them for the jobs that are going to be coming
14 about from Wuskwatim.
15 We have received funding from various levels
16 of government, the Federal Government, different
17 departments, plus the Province and Manitoba Hydro to
18 have our people be involved in pre-project training
19 activities. One of the things that we have done
20 quite successfully with regard to making sure that
21 the training that is required is there but it also be
22 appropriate types of training.
23 We approached the Province to see if they had
24 anything in their books that resembled what we are
25 trying to do for preparing for Wuskwatim and the
3079
1 construction or redoing of the junction road. For
2 example, everyone in the community has seen that
3 occur. We have put conditions in the contract to do
4 that project so that they would make use of our own
5 people, make use of our own trainees, to make sure
6 that they have appropriate kind of training on
7 appropriate kinds of equipment in preparation for the
8 project so that they would have an opportunity to
9 attain the opportunities that they trained for for
10 this particular project.
11 We also have negotiated situations where we
12 are wanting to have some direct contracts for NCN.
13 In those kind of circumstances, we will have an
14 opportunity to hire many of our own people directly.
15 With regard to guaranteeing jobs, perhaps in
16 some instances there can be some guarantees. In
17 others, what we can do is prepare our people as best
18 as we possibly can, provide them with the
19 opportunities to go and seek those opportunities that
20 are available to them.
21 Now, in regard to us trying to get guarantees
22 for as many of the jobs as possible, we have
23 encountered quite a bit of difficulty in being able
24 to achieve that. But nonetheless, we have negotiated
25 for a preference for NCN members. The problem that
3080
1 we run into is Human Rights legislation. We can't do
2 things that will discriminate against others. So we
3 have had to work our way around, not around, but work
4 our way through with those kind of conditions to see
5 what we can do to try and maximize the opportunities
6 for our people.
7 So try as we may, I don't believe that we can
8 provide any absolute guarantees in that sense.
9 However, we do -- we will try to hire as many of our
10 own people as possible for the many areas that are
11 going to be needed.
12 MS. KOBLISKI: Thank you. I just wanted to
13 clarify that because there are a lot of young people
14 here and they had been mislead. I understand where
15 you're coming from where we did have our young people
16 talking -- I mean working on the highway at the
17 junction project. And one of them was my son
18 Terrance because he took the heavy equipment operator
19 training in Nelson House. And they were chosen to do
20 the job with the contractors there. But again, even
21 though they were certified heavy equipment operators,
22 they were given very little. They were given low
23 paying, you know, monies even though they did the
24 same thing that the contractors did. And this is
25 something that really bothered them. They were only
3081
1 being paid $9.00 an hour and the other guys were paid
2 like $20 to $25 an hour.
3 This is something that they were asking me to
4 ask you. Is this the same thing that's going to
5 happen to them out there because of the lack of
6 experience that they have? And it's like what Hydro
7 said here, we are only going to hire people that are
8 experienced. You can't just come to somebody and say
9 here is my certificate and then expect them to be
10 hired. This is something that our men were asking.
11 MR. THOMAS: I can't answer for Hydro but with
12 regard to our efforts, we're trying to do the best we
13 can to provide the training that is needed. And the
14 trainees are -- we're trying to provide the trainees
15 with the appropriate kind of experiences that they
16 are going to need so that it will help to address the
17 issue of you don't have any experience. I know
18 you've got your certificate but you have got no
19 experience to back that up with.
20 So in our training planning, we incorporate
21 the experience into the overall plan, specifically to
22 try and avoid these kind of situations that you
23 mentioned. But with regard to Hydro, I guess maybe
24 Ken will speak to that issue.
25 MS. KOBLISKI: Well, how much experience do
3082
1 you want?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams?
3 MR. ADAMS: Maybe I can expand a little bit.
4 The issue of experience on construction projects is a
5 very difficult one all around. If you've got a huge
6 great big crane on the job with a boom about 100 feet
7 wide swinging a great big load on the end and I'm
8 sitting on the ground there, I'd like to think that
9 the person operating it is very experienced and very
10 good at what he does or she. I don't mean to be
11 sexist in these things.
12 The question is how does he or she become
13 experienced? And that is a significant issue
14 throughout the whole industry because a generation of
15 experienced people has passed through. There hasn't
16 been a lot of heavy construction in this province in
17 the last 10 years. And construction unions and
18 construction contractors are all concerned about
19 renewal of the workforce. If a contractor has got a
20 million dollar piece of equipment, he wants to know
21 that it's in safe hands.
22 So what we can do is, as Councillor Thomas
23 said, is we can create a training initiative so that
24 young people have the opportunity to start the
25 training. But ultimately, the training has to be
3083
1 done on the job. I mean if you're going to operate a
2 grader or if you are going to be a carpeter, you can
3 do so much in the classroom, you can do so much in
4 simulation exercises but ultimately you've got to do
5 it on the job.
6 So what we do is, in our contracts, we specify
7 that there will be a certain number of apprentices or
8 trainees, depending on the trade, at various levels.
9 And if the contractor doesn't meet those
10 requirements, then there's penalties in the contract,
11 financial penalties.
12 The second thing that we do is in the
13 collective agreement, which is the Burntwood Nelson
14 Agreement, we negotiate with the unions again often
15 trying to create training ratios like so many
16 trainees per journeyman and again at different
17 levels, make sure that it's compatible with the
18 contracts. And also, as Councillor Thomas said,
19 within the collective agreement, there is a hiring
20 preference and a discharge preference in reverse.
21 So if we can get the local young people, and
22 it's really for the most, again not exclusively, but
23 it's mostly the young people that we are targeting,
24 if we can get them to the point where they can
25 qualify as a trainee or an apprentice on the program,
3084
1 the contractor will specify that he needs so many
2 carpenter trainees or apprentices in first year,
3 third year, and so forth, and similarly for the
4 electricians, pipe fitters, millwrights, which are
5 the high paid jobs, specifies what he wants. The
6 preference will go to the northern Aboriginal
7 candidates who are ready, willing and able to go to
8 the job.
9 If the contractor is specifying a too high
10 level of skill for the job required, there is a
11 mechanism where, collectively on site, the various
12 parties involved can look at that and tell the
13 contractor you're pushing the envelope here. You
14 don't need somebody with four years experience, you
15 can do this piece of work with somebody with two
16 years experience. And that will run all the way
17 through from driving trucks and heavy equipment and
18 similarly through the apprenticeship programs.
19 I wish I could guarantee something. But
20 particularly the field of labour relations, it's very
21 very difficult to guarantee anything for anybody.
22 But all we can do is create the environment, create
23 the conditions where if somebody reaches adequate
24 level of training -- and part of the reason why we
25 try to start this training program two to three years
3085
1 ahead of the project is to enable people to get
2 through those first couple of years to the point
3 where they can bring some skills to the job and be
4 seen as a valuable employee by the contractors.
5 MS. KOBLISKI: How much experience are you
6 looking for from our people?
7 MR. ADAMS: Well, it will vary. It depends on
8 the job. It depends on the requirement. Obviously
9 in some cases, there will be jobs where you or
10 specific requirements where a lot of experience is
11 required. There will be others where very little
12 experience is required. But you can't have everybody
13 completely inexperienced. What you need is a mix of
14 people on the job where you've got some very senior,
15 very experienced people and a whole range down to the
16 neophytes and make sure that the skills are
17 appropriately passed down.
18 MS. KOBLISKI: You see the thing that worries
19 me is, like what Mr. Thomas is saying, we don't want
20 the same thing to happen again with this project as
21 what happened with the CRD. Jobs were promised to
22 our people with that last project. And a lot of
23 those promises were not met to this day. And the
24 thing that bothers me is Hydro has the nerve to come
25 back to the Native people again and offer them
3086
1 another project, and offering us jobs again and we're
2 hearing the same story over and over again. We're
3 hearing the same pattern that Hydro came to with the
4 first deal.
5 Can you understand why I'm asking this
6 question? There's not really any trust or any
7 guarantee from you guys whatsoever to our people.
8 Like we're very concerned when you say, well, there's
9 these jobs and there's these jobs and, you know, this
10 concerned us because like what Mr. Thomas said, you
11 know, we're trying to change that. We're trying
12 to -- we're trying to make sure that our people get
13 proper employment, proper jobs.
14 But see, for us to stand here and to agree on
15 the Wuskwatim project and to vote on it, right now,
16 for myself, I'd say no because of what I'm hearing
17 here and because of the whole process that's been
18 taken place here, this whole Wuskwatim project. I
19 don't see our people benefitting that much from it
20 but putting us in a hole. That's what I see.
21 And the way I see it, all Manitoba Hydro has
22 done is painted a pretty picture of all the projects
23 that they've built up here in the north. But have
24 they looked back at the pretty pictures that they
25 so-called put up and the effects that they left
3087
1 behind?
2 This is something that sits with us people
3 today. And I know we're told to move on, you know,
4 there's something more better out there. We're going
5 to receive something more. I hear that quite a bit.
6 But one thing I want to tell Hydro is the past will
7 always be with us no matter what because of the
8 effects that it has had on us.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Question?
10 MS. KOBLISKI: That's all I'd like to -- I
11 just want to know about what guarantee we have.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Please, please.
13 MS. KOBLISKI: The other thing that I would
14 like to ask Mr. Thomas is this other gentleman had
15 asked you about our treaty rights. That concerns me
16 also with this project. Are our treaty rights being
17 infringed on and who is protecting our rights?
18 MR. THOMAS: I believe the answer to that
19 question has been provided in the presentation and
20 also in my response to the gentleman who asked the
21 question.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: The question was asked, ma'am,
23 just a little while ago. I don't know if you were
24 here and it was answered.
25 MS. KOBLISKI: Can we have that in writing
3088
1 from you as a leader in Nelson House?
2 MR. THOMAS: It's contained in the transcripts
3 of these proceedings and a copy of the information
4 that has been presented is available to the public as
5 far as I am aware.
6 MS. KOBLISKI: Okay. Okay. Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Kinew.
8 MS. AVERY KINEW: Ms. Kobliski, is
9 that your right name? You might want to check the
10 transcript from I think it was last Wednesday
11 night when the two unions presented in Winnipeg to
12 discuss their view of how the jobs will be
13 allocated. And I think -- which union was it --
14 the machinists, operating engineers, talked about
15 certain kind of crane operators, you would need a
16 ratio of two experienced to one apprentice. And
17 the tower crane, I think it was four established
18 master crane operators to one apprentice. So
19 there would be certain kind of ratios there.
20 But I'm interested in following up
21 this a little bit more. I don't know whether
22 tonight is the appropriate time, but it is in the
23 Constitution of Canada, that affirmative action is
24 guaranteed against. It is not provincial or even
25 Canadian human rights wouldn't go against
3089
1 affirmative action in a situation where like First
2 Nations have been systematically denied
3 employment. So I wonder that Hydro doesn't feel
4 that you can go further than just preferential
5 treatment, that you couldn't have some quotas? I
6 think that affirmative action has changed over the
7 years. It is not just quotas, it is preparing
8 people for training and then you go into the
9 competitive market. But just from the history
10 that people in the north are dealing with, I think
11 they seem to be asking for a lot more than be
12 prepared for a competitive environment.
13 MR. ADAMS: I can perhaps respond to
14 that. We too are of the opinion that quota is a
15 passe. And we prefer not to put targets in
16 because the ideal target would be 100 percent.
17 Now anything -- because the preference clause
18 stays on. And in the previous arrangement, there
19 was a hiring preference until we reached a certain
20 target level. Once the target level was reached
21 the preference came off. This time around our
22 intention is that the preference clause stays on,
23 no matter how well we are doing. Now again these
24 things are subject to negotiation with the various
25 unions. But as you mentioned, the experience and
3090
1 observation with the unions is that they are not
2 at all opposed to these sorts of things, partly
3 out of self-interest. We all deal out of
4 self-interest. But partly out of a recognition
5 that there is an issue that hasn't been dealt with
6 adequately before, and that they want to help us
7 be part of the solution.
8 MS. AVERY KINEW: Is there any kind of
9 list of what jobs -- I have seen lists of jobs,
10 but actual numbers of, so that people would have a
11 better idea of what is going to be possibly
12 available?
13 MR. ADAMS: We have lists. A better
14 way of putting it is we have estimates. But when
15 push comes to shove, it is the contractor who
16 decides if they want ten truck drivers and two
17 loader operators or 12 and 3. So while what we
18 have is a best estimate based on lots of
19 experience, but even those numbers are subject to
20 a lot of variation. I don't know if they are in
21 the EIS or not.
22 MR. THOMAS: With regard to the
23 question that is being posed by Commissioner Avery
24 Kinew, I have got Cam here to respond to that. We
25 did do a presentation on the numbers and they are
3091
1 very general, and the ranges are provided. And
2 within that we try to provide training. I mean,
3 we are not just looking at this particular project
4 per se and thinking that it is the end all and be
5 all when it comes to training and employing our
6 people. It will be a temporary situation that
7 will last five to six years. And the jobs that
8 will be available will last for only X periods of
9 time within that five to six year period. So, the
10 training that we are trying to provide is
11 something that we look at to the satisfaction of
12 the actual jobs that are going to be available,
13 but we are also thinking long term.
14 What is NCN as a community going to
15 need for our future needs, current and future
16 needs? We need carpenters, we need heavy
17 equipment operators, we need truck drivers,
18 plumbers, electricians, et cetera, et cetera.
19 Those are valuable trades to us, because they can
20 be transferred back to the community once the
21 project is finished. In addition, we also have
22 future opportunities that may arise if other hydro
23 projects come about. And so there is a really
24 high value to the training, and also the
25 opportunities that come with the Wuskwatim
3092
1 project. But Cam will give you some of the
2 numbers that we are looking at with regard to
3 these jobs that are available.
4 MR. OSLER: We've looked at in detail
5 the jobs that Hydro's experts have estimated and
6 we looked at the skill requirements for each of
7 these different types of jobs. And the
8 presentation that I gave earlier, I had a graph up
9 there which had very broad differences between
10 what we call designated trades, which are the
11 carpenters and electricians and plumbers, and the
12 other skills which would be heavy equipment
13 operators, truck drivers and among other things
14 also labourers. I didn't get into it today as
15 much as I did in Winnipeg, but the skill
16 differences are very big as has just been said
17 here. For a carpenter or an electrician or
18 somebody going to a designated trade, they have to
19 interested in this as a career. They are going to
20 need four years of not only some classroom work
21 but also on the job work to get fully qualified to
22 get the top pay, to get the better pay scales.
23 But to work on this project, they will
24 need at least two years of experience and
25 training, experience on other job work, in order
3093
1 to have a chance to be qualified for an
2 apprentice. And if they had three years they
3 would have a much better chance. About 20 percent
4 to 25 percent of the designated trade jobs on the
5 site will be apprentices for people who are on the
6 learning curve.
7 I don't have it available to show
8 people, but I could make copies of it and provide,
9 but a carpenter working on this project, Wuskwatim
10 project, could not work enough hours to get the
11 full number of work hours you would need to become
12 a fully qualified carpenter. If you want to
13 become a fully qualified designated trade, a
14 carpenter, electrician, you need lots and lots of
15 work experience. So what this project offers for
16 people from NCN is if they can get qualified
17 enough to be an apprentice, they will have the
18 opportunity in their area to get lots of hours
19 towards becoming a fully qualified carpenter. And
20 if other projects like this also happen
21 afterwards, people in this region will get the
22 opportunity to get the hours needed to become
23 fully qualified and get the full pay scale. So,
24 that is carpenters and electricians.
25 I think the NCN training plan, I want
3094
1 to sort of step back and say there is a detailed
2 NCN training plan, not a Hydro training plan, but
3 an NCN training plan. NCN has gone out to get
4 funding for this training plan. You are building
5 an A tech training facility for this training plan
6 in your community. You have been doing an awful
7 lot of work to develop the ability to train your
8 own people, and other people I believe is your
9 objective, to do the types of jobs that are going
10 to help your community in the long run, right? So
11 it is not Hydro, with all due respect, that is
12 setting this up, in my opinion, working for both
13 of you. If anything it is the two of you working
14 together, but it is certainly NCN taking the lead,
15 not Hydro. Hydro is providing funding, but you
16 have to put up the training, and you have to pick
17 what training you want to do.
18 You said carpenters, electricians
19 because they would be valuable to you in the
20 community, you would have jobs afterwards. But
21 you think in your training plan, and it is filed
22 in this hearing and I will get to it in a minute,
23 the training plan is probably looking at out of
24 100, or 120, 130, whatever the numbers are you end
25 up training, the carpenters and electricians and
3095
1 the designated trades are very important. They
2 are more than you have seen for a long time, but
3 they are 20 to 25, they are not 100. They are
4 part of the mix, they are not everything. The
5 rest of the skills are in the non-designated
6 trades. And what I said in Winnipeg is about
7 45 percent of the non-designated trade jobs on
8 this project will require a year or less training
9 and work experience in order to be qualified for
10 that job and to get the proper pay scale. The
11 rest of them, almost all of them, are three years
12 or less.
13 So, when you got this opportunity to
14 work on this road, my understanding from
15 listening, to talking to people, was this was an
16 opportunity for some people to get hours of work
17 experience so they would be more qualified and be
18 able to get a better pay scale if you were to get
19 the contract that you are negotiating for for the
20 road, for this project. And that would be an NCN
21 contract if you got it, and you would be able to
22 hire your own people and they get a chance to get
23 more hours and more work.
24 So it is NCN's planning to try and
25 break this cycle, as I understand it, so people
3096
1 get the chance to train before the project comes,
2 get the chance to work on these different projects
3 before the project comes and then get the
4 opportunity to get more hours by working on this
5 project.
6 And if other projects come along, the
7 preference that we have assumed in this EIS is a
8 first preference for hiring for all of the
9 Aboriginal residents in the Burntwood/Nelson
10 region. So, NCN would not only be part of this
11 first preference for Wuskwatim, they would be part
12 of the first preference if this assumption becomes
13 valid, for Gull and Conawapa. So your people
14 would not get just one chance at doing this this
15 time, they might get more than one chance in terms
16 of this opportunity.
17 But bottom line, these are skilled
18 jobs. They require commitments of people and they
19 require a lot of people to work together, the
20 unions, the proponents in this project, the
21 community of NCN, and the individual people have
22 got to play a very big role in making their own
23 careers. There is nobody can promise them these
24 things or guarantee them. That is what we have
25 learned. It would be a sham for someone to
3097
1 promise something like that. It won't work. They
2 can promise the opportunity, they can't promise
3 the result. Even in promising the opportunity,
4 there is a lot of work that has to go in and a lot
5 more decisions have to be made before all of the
6 funding and everything is finalized.
7 But all of this is in the record in
8 the first round answers to NFAAT, number 13a,
9 where the training plan is included.
10 MS. KOBLISKI: And all of these are on
11 the public register at NCN and in the public
12 library in Thompson?
13 MR. OSLER: And the full training plan
14 is attached there as one of the documents. And I
15 would be more than happy at the right time and the
16 right place to go into more detail. But I can
17 tell you the detail that we went in to try and
18 develop this with NCN and the Governments and
19 Hydro, because the Governments are putting money
20 into this, required looking at each one of these
21 jobs and looking at how many years of experience
22 each one would take, and frankly an agonizing
23 level of detail, but to try and get to the point
24 that you are asking, what does it take for someone
25 to get somewhere and how can people best help
3098
1 them. And this isn't everything, but it is -- I
2 can tell you we are doing our absolute best in
3 trying to figure the best way to do this. There
4 will be mistakes made. We will have to monitor,
5 to use a word that we were using a lot last week,
6 we will have to learn as we go along. But I don't
7 know why it isn't worth the effort is I guess the
8 bottom line point. If we don't try, we haven't
9 got any chance of doing this type of thing.
10 Anyway, there is a lot of detail that I can get
11 into but --
12 MS. KOBLISKI: Thank you. I would
13 like to make a comment. I would like to ask you
14 something. Mr. Thomas was saying that the jobs
15 that are required in Nelson House are to be a
16 carpenter and electrician, you were saying, that
17 would benefit our community. Why just those jobs?
18 Why can't our people benefit themselves with the
19 higher positions?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe those were
21 examples given, ma'am.
22 MS. KOBLISKI: I know, but I'm just
23 asking Elvis that.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You asked that question
25 in Winnipeg and he gave you that answer and you
3099
1 came back with that same question.
2 MR. THOMAS: I perhaps maybe can
3 provide the same answer. We have learned an awful
4 lot. Don't be mistaken by the fact that we are
5 talking to Hydro about a partnership. All of us
6 as a people have felt the impacts of the Churchill
7 River Diversion project. We know how much it hurt
8 our people. We are very well aware as current
9 living people today about what has happened to our
10 people. We carry that with us. It is in our
11 minds, it is in our hearts, it is in our souls.
12 We carry that.
13 We don't just automatically or blindly
14 give our trust over to anybody. Trust is a very
15 sacred thing. It has to be earned. And you will
16 give back the degree of trust that has been
17 earned. So it is not something that we are going
18 to blindly be giving over to Hydro. Hydro is
19 going to have to work continuously on earning and
20 maintaining the trust relationship that we are
21 trying to establish.
22 Now with respect to the inquiries
23 here, yes, we have considered those kind of
24 concerns. We do not want our people to be just
25 digging ditches in this particular project. We
3100
1 don't want them to be having an opportunity only
2 for the low level paying jobs. We are looking at
3 a very broad spectrum, as included in our
4 presentations, we have targeted a number of areas
5 we think are going to be benefiting the community.
6 Not only for now, but also in the long run as
7 well. With regard to the business opportunities,
8 there will be a need for people in management
9 positions to help oversee that area. We will need
10 financial clerks. We will need people trained --
11 as a matter of fact, we have initiated training in
12 our community to ensure that we can have our own
13 CA and CGAs in the community. We have a lot of
14 people who are interested in that. They are
15 currently going through some training to get those
16 qualifications. It is not an easy route for them.
17 It is going to take a long time because they are
18 working at the same time while they are going to
19 school. So, we have taken high level positions as
20 well with the opportunities that are presenting
21 themselves to NCN, and we are factoring that into
22 our overall planning.
23 MS. KOBLISKI: I would like to ask you
24 another thing, Elvis. Did we have our own
25 independent environmental study group or was it
3101
1 joint with Hydro?
2 MR. THOMAS: We -- in having an
3 opportunity like this present itself, again we
4 have learned from the past. Prior to the '96
5 agreement being ratified, when the initial
6 Churchill River Diversion project was occurring,
7 there was very little legislation in existence at
8 the time to make sure that any environmental
9 impacts were thoroughly and properly assessed.
10 This time around we have legislation that ensures
11 that environmental impacts will be looked at. We
12 have engaged the services jointly as between NCN
13 and also Manitoba Hydro that we would like to have
14 a team put together that will look at the
15 environmental impact issues, and we jointly chose
16 to have an environmental management team in place.
17 And the people that you see here are a reflection
18 of that. We didn't have our very own independent
19 team. But we did have many of our own people be
20 involved in this process that also provided us
21 with their knowledge of things, as I indicated, in
22 the traditional knowledge component of our
23 presentation.
24 MS. KOBLISKI: Don't you think it
25 would have been better if we had our own
3102
1 independent environmental study group instead of
2 being joint partners of Hydro because of the
3 mistrust? For myself I think we should have had
4 our own independent environmental group on behalf
5 of Nelson House do that. And for you to join with
6 them without consulting with your people, I think
7 you should have asked your people first before
8 making a decision like that.
9 MR. THOMAS: I think again, and Hydro
10 will speak to this issue themselves as well, we
11 have taken all of those things into consideration
12 and it was decided by Chief and Council to
13 establish a team that would be made up of our own
14 people. And with our own people being involved in
15 a process, such as the one that was chosen, we
16 felt was a really good option to pursue. And that
17 was the path that we decided to follow.
18 I'm not quite sure how to put this
19 forward. I think that when you are at odds with
20 people, when you are in a conflict situation, when
21 it is between enemies, the ability to achieve
22 something that will help solve problems is very
23 limited when you are in those kind of positions.
24 Whereas between friends, the chances of us working
25 together in a good way, and producing positive
3103
1 results is a better option to pursue. And that is
2 part of our reasoning.
3 And we did go to the community to ask
4 to see what they thought of things. And we did
5 have an agreement in principle put forward to the
6 community that reflected your concerns. And we
7 did indicate that we would jointly develop and
8 produce an environmental impact assessment for
9 this process that would come before this
10 Commission.
11 MR. ADAMS: I would like to add a
12 little bit to that. I want to make sure that
13 everybody understands that Mr. Rempel and Mr.
14 Davies, Mr. Osler and Mr. Hicks, who unfortunately
15 was not able to travel here, are each the senior
16 representative of completely independent
17 consulting companies who have no ties to Manitoba
18 Hydro, other than that they bid on a contract with
19 Manitoba Hydro and NCN, and were the successful
20 bidders. They are not Manitoba Hydro's
21 consultants, they are independent consultants
22 whose livelihood depends on their reputation. So
23 from our perspective they are independent.
24 MS. KOBLISKI: The other thing that I
25 would like to ask is I hear Mr. Thomas always
3104
1 saying we, and Chief and Council; the thing that
2 bothers me is we as a community are not being
3 properly informed.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Question please.
5 MS. KOBLISKI: The other thing that I
6 would like to mention to the CEC board of
7 directors or committee is why are they not having
8 these meetings in Nelson House and in South Indian
9 when we are the people that are being affected by
10 this project? It is only a 45 minute drive for
11 you people to come down that way and meet with our
12 people, so that all of our band members can hear
13 what is going on, not just here in Thompson. This
14 is something that we had asked our leaders, if it
15 was possible for you guys to come down to Nelson
16 House even for one day, to come and have your
17 meetings there, because not everybody can come
18 here or go to Winnipeg. This was something that
19 was brought up because it does affect us as a
20 community.
21 MR. MAYER: I would like to respond to
22 that. Firstly, the issue as between the residents
23 of Nelson House and the leaders and Government of
24 Nelson House is really outside the scope of this
25 Commission. This Commission is here not to decide
3105
1 on how you as a community deal with your issue.
2 We are here to at least make recommendations to
3 the Minister on the environmental effects, some of
4 it being socioeconomic as well, but on the effects
5 of the project and how it will affect Manitoba's
6 environment and to some extent the world's
7 environment. We are also here to deal with the
8 issue of whether or not this will adversely effect
9 the consumers of Manitoba Hydro. Those are our
10 two projects. I'm sorry, we spent most of tonight
11 talking about issues that appear to be between
12 NCN's leadership and NCN's opposition. I can't
13 describe it any other way. We are missing some of
14 the point on what this Commission is supposed to
15 be doing. We can't solve your problems. We are
16 not here to do that. We are here to make
17 recommendations to the Minister. And one of those
18 recommendations will not be whether or not you or
19 your friends vote in favour of whatever referendum
20 is eventually put before you. That is out of our
21 jurisdiction. That is why we are not there trying
22 to solve that problem for you.
23 MS. KOBLISKI: I understand where you
24 are coming from. I'm not asking you to solve our
25 problems for us. Even yourself, you live in
3106
1 Thompson here, don't you? And you said you have
2 seen the effects of the last Hydro project. It is
3 easy for you to say that you live in Thompson
4 here, but you don't live in the areas where we
5 live. You haven't experienced what we have
6 experienced as native people. It gets frustrating
7 some times. I know where you sit and what you do.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The opportunity was
9 afforded, and I see that many people are here to
10 take up that opportunity to raise -- to make their
11 views known and to raise questions as you have
12 done yourself.
13 MS. KOBLISKI: Thank you.
14 MR. THOMAS: If I just may provide
15 some comments. We have done a great deal of work
16 as leaders of our community, also as a future
17 development team. We have developed information
18 while we have been working hard to negotiate on
19 behalf of the best interests of the community. We
20 have engaged in a community driven process that
21 has never really been done before in the
22 community. So a lot of changes have occurred
23 since the last time we dealt with the Northern
24 Flood Agreement of '77 and also even the
25 implementation agreement that was done.
3107
1 We've taken what was done with the
2 implementation agreement and we have expanded upon
3 it considerably to ensure that we maximize
4 community participation. We have had open houses,
5 we have had open meetings, we have had workshops,
6 we have had focus group meetings, we have had
7 opinion surveys done, we have engaged the TV
8 station, the radio station, the presentation that
9 you heard here of an overview in Cree, and also
10 English, has been done. It has been done in the
11 community. I've done a number of presentations in
12 the community. We have extended invitations to
13 you and also to your group to come before us and
14 meet with us, so we can talk about the issues of
15 concern.
16 So we have done quite a bit of work
17 consulting with our community. To tell me that
18 you are not informed about things, I think is not
19 appropriate. If you are not doing your part to
20 learn about what we are doing, I can't force you
21 to learn about those things. But we do maximize
22 our best efforts to make sure that our community
23 is as informed as possible. We are going to have
24 two referendums in total for this particular
25 initiative. That has never been done any where.
3108
1 And for a referendum to kick into gear, you have
2 to provide information to the community. And we
3 have done that with the agreements in principle
4 and we are going to be doing that for the PDA. We
5 have also engaged in an interim provision of
6 information as to what to expect for the future
7 with respect to us doing the summary of
8 understandings that has also been put forward to
9 the community.
10 In addition, we have hired many people
11 to talk about the project. This project in and of
12 itself is no secret. Everybody knows about it.
13 Our community knows about. Other First Nations
14 know about it. The City of Thompson, Brandon,
15 Winnipeg, all of these places know about this,
16 even the world is watching us.
17 MS. KOBLISKI: I know you mentioned
18 you wear many hats on this portfolio that you
19 hold.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, I thought
21 you had finished.
22 MS. KOBLISKI: One more if I could.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your last?
24 MS. KOBLISKI: Yes. You mentioned
25 that you wear many hats holding this portfolio.
3109
1 And I would like to just address one of those hats
2 that you wear as a councillor for our community,
3 is how would you know what is best for us as
4 community members when you are hardly ever there
5 to know what we need? You can not stand there and
6 represent me as an NCN band member and say this is
7 what is best for her. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not within the
9 scope. If you are asking -- you just continue to
10 have your debate here. It is not a real question
11 about the project. The time is -- I'm sorry, sir,
12 I was just going to -- do you have lots of
13 questions? Because we are supposed to adjourn at
14 ten and we are supposed to reconvene at 9:00
15 o'clock tomorrow. I would like to bring the
16 meeting to an end. You are going to be here
17 tomorrow?
18 THE WITNESS: No, I won't.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, sir? Sir, I'm
20 chairing this meeting. I listened to you this
21 afternoon, but you are not at the mike. Let's
22 respect one another here. We have indicated that
23 the meeting would adjourn at 10:00 o'clock. It is
24 almost quarter after.
25 MR. FRANCOIS: Two questions, I won't
3110
1 be here tomorrow.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, ask your
3 question.
4 MR. FRANCOIS: My name is Carl
5 Francois. I'm a member of Nelson House. My first
6 question was, the NFA, is it a treaty or not?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: The NFA, is it a treaty
8 or not?
9 MR. ADAMS: I don't know,
10 Mr. Chairman. I personally don't feel qualified
11 to comment on matters of law and I don't see how
12 that is pertinent to the Wuskwatim project.
13 MR. THOMAS: I can't provide a legal
14 opinion on the status of the NFA either.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, what I'm hearing
16 is that you are asking a question that has legal
17 implications. You are wanting a lawyer's answer
18 or a court's answer. Okay.
19 MR. FRANCOIS: There is a lawyer
20 sitting there.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: But you have asked the
22 panel. Next question.
23 MR. FRANCOIS: My next question would
24 be the PDA, is that a termination agreement?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The PDA, would you tell
3111
1 me for my own understanding what you are referring
2 to?
3 MR. FRANCOIS: I'm asking, you are
4 giving jurisdiction to the Government or Hydro in
5 order to put the Wuskwatim project up and running.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: The project development
7 agreement, is it -- what did you say?
8 MR. FRANCOIS: Is it a termination
9 agreement with Nelson House.
10 MR. THOMAS: To terminate what?
11 MR. FRANCOIS: Your treaty rights,
12 your land and water and resources.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: That was answered
14 already, sir. And the answer was no from what I
15 heard a while ago.
16 MR. FRANCOIS: Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until
18 9:00 o'clock tomorrow.
19
20 (ADJOURNED at 10:15 P.M.)
21
22
23
24
25