my name is torsten, for over six years i owned a french patisserie here in cologne and duesseldorf region with 4 shops.so i know a little something how to open shops and stuff. four months ago i left the company to live my dream ofopening a neapolitan pizzeria in cologne. in 2011 i did a research trip to napoli visiting Stefano Ferrara, all the pizza temples andall the important caseificios. luckily i will be able to get my mozz from caseificio barlotti in paestum region.at the moment i am searching for a place to rent. since i have some experience with dough :-) (we did our own Bread, Baguette, Croissant and Brioche)iam also making some progress with my dough. For starters i think i will go with yeast. having read the vast amount of info on this board i tried to geta recipe to start with:

1000g caputo blue flour600g h2o 20C30g salt2g fresh yeast

mix water salt and yeast, add flour in 2 steps, after flour is all wet 20 min. autolyse after that30 min. slow kneading (kenwood major) then about 5 mins handkneading to smooth things out.i find that even after 30 mins. kneading the dough is still very rough... :/ then shape a big ballput in a bowl covered with cling film and let proff 24h at room temp. next day between 3-6 h. beforebaking i shape the balls...

at the mo i bake my pies in a ikea oven with the self cleaning program. at the lower third i put a wire rack and a round pizza stone, thats it...

actually the next bake will be tomorrow, i will make about 12 pies, some critics are coming...i think i can manage to make a shot. after all i read i didnt expect the bake to be that even, with leoparding, blistering and nice charred spots on the bottom

As others have said, that's a great looking pizza! I think your years of making bread are showing in the photo. But it looks like you've got that Ikea oven working pretty well too. I guess you must have taken the self-cleaning safety catch off to get it to bake that fast. Well done! I will look forward to more posts!

It sounds like you have plenty of experience, but I would say just make sure you source quality ingredients, and get a proper oven. Really, the rest is in the person making the pizza, (so if you're not entirely comfortable managing a WFO with regard to temperature, hot spots, and just maneuvering pies in, out, and around the oven, you may want to hire a skilled pizzaiolo.)

Your experience with making bread should have you covered for this issue, but be aware of adjusting your dough accordingly for different weather and temperatures. I don't bake a ton of bread, but I have been making and balling dough fairly regularly and I've done it enough to see and feel how it can differ from day to day based on the temperature of the dough, the temperature in the building, how long it's bulk fermented at different temperatures, etc etc. So write everything down! It helps.

a few days ago i came back from naples, visiting stefano ferrara again, and choosing my forno... :-) iam gonna get the 130cm diameter version with gas.i was also visiting the usual suspects to hone my tastebuds, and i must say that at least on this trip da michele was my favourite, in fact i nearly missed the plane because i had to go there one last time.... on my last day i was the second guest, and the "don" himself made my pizza (i even have video to prove it :-)

tonite i had another "ikea" trial with

2000g caputo1200g water at 28c60g salt0,8g fresh yeast,

kneading time 20 mins. 20 h bulk, 4 h balled....

this time i even have an upskirt photo.... i figured out that you have to wait a full hour before you can seriously start to churn out pies....

scott123

Torsten, have you already committed to purchasing the gas SF? I'm still a little skeptical of gas Neapolitan ovens.

The recent pizza expo, because of fire codes, utilized gas ovens for all their NP pies, and I have friends who felt that the pizzas were 'missing something.' My biggest concern, though, is that gas might not have the necessary power to do <60 second bakes. I think it's safe to say that they can do 90, and that might be good enough for some, but if I were spending this much money on an oven, I'd want something that could go down as low as 45, and, right now, I've not seen any proof that a gas SF can perform this feat.

i talked with stefano about that, its also my concern.... but he told me that even in downtown naples people switch to gas, and he showed me somepics from las vegas showing some very nice pies with decent leoparding... dunno... i just believe that going wood will be too complicated for us to start with...

does anyone on this forum has experience with a sf gas forno

cheers

t.

p.s. he even makes an electrical oven now, that he sells to yacht owner and cruiseships....

I don't have a sf gas forno, but I'm using LP gas. LPG has a very high energy content. It burns hot and with no soot, so it's a clean way to get a high temperature. It's certainly easier to regulate and keep a consistent temperature.

I wouldn't scoff at it without trying it. You taste the pizza and not the wood smoke. I think some people confuse the smoke residue for dough taste.

I think this is an interesting topic.

I'm not sure that bread fermented in a modern environmental-controlled cabinet and baked in a modern oven is worse that bread baked in an old stone oven.

I don't have a sf gas forno, but I'm using LP gas. LPG has a very high energy content. It burns hot and with no soot, so it's a clean way to get a high temperature. It's certainly easier to regulate and keep a consistent temperature.

I wouldn't scoff at it without trying it. You taste the pizza and not the wood smoke. I think some people confuse the smoke residue for dough taste.

Youíre right that, compared to wood, LP and NG both have a lot of energy density (more than 3X as much useable energy per kg). However, the energy density of the fuel is not what bakes a pizza. The rate at which the oven converts fuel to energy, at the very least, is what you need to know. The SF website (http://www.sfallestimenti.it/english/gas_ovens.html) says the oven has a max heat output of 34Kw (to be correct, it is kW not Kw as shown on the website Ė further, Iím assuming they actually mean kWh not kW as kW is meaningless in this context). 34 kWh = 116,013 Btu. Say you can squeeze about 6,200 Btu/lb out of oak or another similar hardwood, a 34 kWh oven is about the same as burning 19lbs/hr oak in a WFO. I donít need that much wood to keep the oven hot, and my oven doesnít get very saturated only getting used once/week, so it would take more wood for me than for an oven used every day. I donít think it will surprise anyone that SF put a large enough burner in their oven.

Itís one thing to replace a wood fire with a similar energy output gas fire. Thatís very easy. I think the more important questions are around the things that donít necessarily change linearly with the fuel change. A couple things that come to mind:

- There is a big difference in the heat transfer mechanism. Compared to wood, gas will have much more convection and much less radiation. Maybe itís good not to have a strong IR source on one side of the oven? Maybe itís not good to lack the strong IR of the rolling flame across the top of the oven?

- There is going to be a difference in the amount of water produced. I have not run all the numbers, so I donít know which produces less. Compared to a large wood fire, Iíd guess gas produces less. Compared to a large coal bed with only a small log burning, gas may produce more. According to SF, at wide open throttle, the SF is burning 1.2kg propane/hr. That would produce right at 2kg water/hr (4*18/44*1.2). I have no idea if this is good, bad, or indifferent to pizza quality as compared to wood.

- As noted in the original quote, gas is not wood. Perhaps there is a difference in flavor? I've eaten a lot of NP at a lot of different restaurants, and I've never tasted what I would call "wood smoke.Ē Itís hard to imagine a wood fire having much of a direct flavor impact at temperatures that high and bake times that short. Maybe? Iíve eaten a lot of pies baked with gas in my grill Ė some with wood assist and some without. I canít say I noticed a flavor difference either way. Those were baked at a lower temp (750F) and for a longer time (2:15) than a NP WFO, so if there is a difference, I would think it would have been more noticeable.

Quote

I'm not sure that bread fermented in a modern environmental-controlled cabinet and baked in a modern oven is worse that bread baked in an old stone oven.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? I thought this was about Neapolitan pizza?

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

i talked with stefano about that, its also my concern.... but he told me that even in downtown naples people switch to gas, and he showed me somepics from las vegas showing some very nice pies with decent leoparding... dunno... i just believe that going wood will be too complicated for us to start with...

does anyone on this forum has experience with a sf gas forno

cheers

t.

p.s. he even makes an electrical oven now, that he sells to yacht owner and cruiseships....

If it were me, I'd go back to downtown Naples and sample a few dozen pizzas baked with gas to be absolutely sure they were what I wanted to serve my customers. I wouldn't even think of skipping this step.

Another thing to consider: it takes a much more skilled pizza maker to master the wood fire. Is this good or bad? A less-skilled employee may also pay less attention to all of the other little details that go into creating a great pizza. So I guess this depends on who's doing your baking.

Perhaps your clientele won't know or care about the difference, but to me as a customer, a gas-powered Neapolitan oven implies compromises that could likely lower quality.

craig, you seemed to wonder about proofing for 20+h at room temp, i made a one day stage at "la figlia del presidente" in naples and they told me they always keep the dough at room temp andjust use a different amount of yeast and salt. i find i difficult to plan to control bulk proofing temperatur in a commercial200+ pie setting...

i also heard da micheles process contains old dough, the amount of leoparding ontheir pies seem to kind of proof that, what do you think craig !??!??

craig, you seemed to wonder about proofing for 20+h at room temp, i made a one day stage at "la figlia del presidente" in naples and they told me they always keep the dough at room temp andjust use a different amount of yeast and salt. i find i difficult to plan to control bulk proofing temperatur in a commercial200+ pie setting...

i also heard da micheles process contains old dough, the amount of leoparding ontheir pies seem to kind of proof that, what do you think craig !??!??

did you try the caputo criscito product ??

I donít wonder about proofing at room temp or for long periods. Iím a hard-core believer. I canít remember the last time I did less than 24 hours or used a refrigerator, and never for Neapolitan. Generally, I proof 48 hours at room temp (60-65F).

My question was about the amount of yeast you used for 24 hours. 0.4% fresh yeast is about half of what I would expect to see for 24 hours at room temp. Thatís why I was wondering if your proofing temp is on the warm side.

It wouldnít surprise me if da Michele used old dough, but I donít see how doing so would meaningfully contribute to leoparding. Iíve experimented with old dough and donít really have an opinion on it one way or the other.

I have not tried the Caputo (or 5Stagioni) Criscito. I have a pretty strong feeling against using it. That being said, someone did offer to send me some, and I will experiment with it, but likely in non-typical ways. I only use natural cultures for my Neapolitan pizza. There has been exactly two pies made with bakerís yeast in my WFO, and I didnít make either of them.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

do you think its feasible to use a starter culture in a commercial setting ??

If by feasible you mean "can it be done?" of course the answer is yes. If you're asking, will it be easy, then the answer is solidly no.

Using a natural starter culture (and by natural, i'm not implying that baker's yeast is somehow unnatural) reintroduces uncertainties, complexity, and the need for people with the experience dealing with the additional variables. We created baker's yeast precisely to eliminate the uncertainties of natural starters and make things consistent and easier to control. I know operations that are successful with a natural culture, and they all pretty much have one thing in common: the person in charge of the dough doesn't get much time off and when s/he does, you never know what is going to happen. that's a lot of stress and headaches. I also know of places that used natural cultures successfully and changed to baker's yeast for this very reason. I think if you are going to do it, you should have a second person standing beside you learning every single time you make the dough. You are going to have to pay that person enough that s/he won't even consider leaving, and, in this age of no loyalty, that may not be enough.

The cost of simplicity is flavor. I'm not going to go so far as to say one is better than the other. I have my opinion, and I'm sure it's no secret here, but I get plenty of days off without having to worry about dough. My suggestion would be to make a bunch of pies both ways and really think hard about if the difference in the product justifies the increased cost ($, stress, inconsistency, etc.). You can't simply do it for nostalgia.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage