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Sunday, 17 March 2013

Transcript: ‘Controversial’ Cardinal Napier Interview

Cardinal Napier

This interview has created a great deal of controversy. Why? Well because personally I believe that Stephen Nolan and other media used a byline that did not in anyway reflect what Cardinal Napier said, but was guaranteed to attract attention. I write more on this in this other post - "Cardinal Napier Sacrificed". The entire purpose of this
interview was for Stephen Nolan, from BBC Radio 5, to discuss the election of
Pope Francis with Cardinal Napier. As seems to be par for the course with
journalists today, this clearly was not the true reason for the interview.

Those wanting to listen to the interview. Here it is. The transcript, with time references, follows.

CN: It was fascinating, you know the … what I
couldn’t help doing was comparing the two Conclaves, the one in 2005 and this
one in this past few days. The main difference of course being that in 2005
there were only two Cardinals who had actually been to a Conclave before,
whereas this time there were over 50 who had done it before. So that created a
very different expectation and different atmosphere I think.

SN: Can
you describe the atmosphere?

Time into Interview: 00:29

CN: The atmosphere was one of anticipation I
suppose. It was also an atmosphere of whose it going to be because I think the
fact that we had quite a few days of exchanges in the congregations of the
Cardinals meant that there were a lot more questions that had been put on the
table and therefore possibly more candidates that people would have suggested
in the way they voted and indeed that’s how it turned out there were quite a
lot … the first vote was rather spread out.

SN: How
did you feel when Pope Francis was announced?

Time into Interview: 01:04

CN: Very, very, very touched by the fact that
when he answered the question, the first one, do you accept, and he said yes,
even though I am a sinner, I do accept.

SN: Do
you really think he will be a reformer?

Time into Interview: 01:15

CN: I don’t think that’s the reason why the
Pope is elected. I think he is going to be a leader and the way he leads will
help others to reform themselves. I don’t think he’s going to come in and say
you’ve got to change here and you’ve got to change there. He’s already showing
by his own actions that he is changing himself and doing things in a different
way and I am sure that’s going to catch on.

SN: Do
you not think there is radical reform needed within the Catholic Church?

Time into Interview: 01:44

CN: Why
would you say that?

SN: Because obviously many would refer to the
mismanagement of sexual abuse cases, they would …

Time into
Interview: 01:55

CN: Just hold on now. You know that’s when I
get rather, how would I say, upset when I hear people making generalisations
like that. How do you, when the cases have been now referred to the Doctrine of
the Faith and the Doctrine of the Faith is working flat out in handling these
cases, I don’t know how anyone can say in this day and age, that the cases are
actually still being mishandled?

SN: Well
because …

Time into
Interview: 02:22

CN: It may have happened in the past, in may
have happened in the past when no one had experience on this but I think since
Pope Benedict when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger at the office … the Doctrine
of the Faith office and Pope John Paul said that all cases should be referred
to the Doctrine of the Faith, since then I don’t think there are grounds for
saying that the cases are being mismanaged.

SN: I think there are many victims who would
legitimately argue that they don’t really care if the Church gets upset or,
with all due respect, you get upset, they have had to wait for justice for
sometimes many decades and that the justice is only coming now and the Church
is only handling it now after media pressure, not because the Church wanted to
– not because they felt a moral compulsion to do so…

Time into Interview:
03:16

CN: That
may be your opinion but I don’t think that it tallies with the facts.

SN: Well what are the facts? Why do you think
the Catholic Church is handling it now?

Time into
Interview: 03:24

CN: I’m a bishop who has had to handle cases and
I know that when I got the … I followed the protocol that we had developed. Went
through every step of the protocol according to the way it had been at that
time was seen to be the best practice and I really would resent it if someone
said to me you mishandled that case.

SN: Well what was the protocol that you
followed? You had been given evidence of abuse within the Church?

Time into
Interview: 03:53

CN: We handled cases where people had come
forward and said I was abused by father so and so. And the protocol said these
are the steps that have to be taken in order to establish whether this
allegation is true. Once the allegation is true other steps then have to be
taken. Now what other way can you deal with something of this kind?

SN: But we have seen that even when the Church
had concrete evidence that allegations were true, some of those people remained
within the Church. Some of those people did not go to prison, were not
investigated by the police, were moved within the Church.

Time into
Interview: 04:33

CN: That depends on what country you were in.
For instances in our country, in South Africa, there was no way I as bishop
could have accused somebody and reported the case and made a case with the
police. It would have to be the victim themselves who would have to make the
case against the person and only then could the justice system kick in. I don’t
see how you could say that if the victim then said we don’t want this thing to
go to the police, how can you then say the Church is mishandling the thing by
respecting the victim’s own request. I think we’ve got to be fair and not
generalise. You’ve got to actually have cases in point and follow them through
from the beginning to the end before you can say this case was mishandled, that
one was handled properly.

SN: And that’s why I am really appreciative of
your time this evening Cardinal because you’re someone who had to deal with
specific cases. So when you dealt with those specific cases, what actually
happened with some of the priests involved? Were they banned from ever having
contact, for example…

Time into
Interview: 05:48

CN: Some of the priests went, according to the
wisdom of the time, the best information that we had from psychologists, they
went for treatment, came back and have been under – what we call it – personal surveillance
and have functioned quite normally ever since. Others left the priesthood, they
were laicised, but it depended on each case being handled differently because
of the peoples conditions were different.

SN: And
those would be priests who had abused children, would they?

Time into
Interview: 06:23

CN: That’s
right, yes.

SN: What
type of treatment did they receive?

Time into
Interview: 06:28

CN: They were centres like St Luke’s in America
where deep psychological therapy and all that kind of stuff, which at the time
the people said this was actually something that could help – it could help to
control the condition - it might not cure the condition, but we know since that
those very same centres have said look the success rate of treatment is such
that you have to remove these people completely from the priesthood and not put
them back into positions of authority.

SN: And those priests, I mean this is really
fascinating this actually, those priest who received treatment, who you were
aware of, did they have further contact with children after treatment.

Time into
Interview: 07:08

CN: No,
that was one of the conditions that they would not.

SN: So
how did they contact their business?

Time into
Interview: 07:14

CN: I think you seem to be giving the
impression that when a bishop handles a case he is doing it recklessly, without
due attention, without due care for the welfare of children. Nothing could be
further from the truth.

SN: But usually people receive treatment if
they are ill. If they have an illness, not because they have abused and have
engaged in criminal activity. Those types of people usually go to jail.

Time into
Interview: 07:39

CN: What
do people go to jail for? Isn’t it to rehabilitate them into society?

SN: But
they don’t get sent to hospital. They don’t get treatment.

Time into
Interview: 07:51

CN: Why not? I mean I’m sure there are people
who get put into - psychopaths who committed crimes that are put under treatment.
That’s my experience of it that people don’t just get put into jail punitively
but there are efforts to rehabilitate them and provide them with the kind of
medical, mental, psychological care that will help to rehabilitate them.

SN: But do you believe Cardinal that these
priests who received treatment deserved to be punished?

Time into
Interview: 08:25

CN: Look, if you are acting out of a defect in
your own character, are you culpable, are you totally culpable that you must be
punished or are you simply ill that you need to be treated and you need to be
cured.

SN: So
you do not think that a paedophile needs to be punished?

Time into
Interview: 08:45

CN: Well look, what is paedophilia? It’s a
condition. It’s a psychological condition. It’s a disorder. What do you do with
disorders? You have got to try and put them right. Sin is a disorder. In other
words we should say all sinners don’t even try to come to Confession because
you are going to fall back into sin again and that is not the reality of what
the Church is about.

SN: So do you believe, even in this day and
age, Cardinal, that it is okay for a paedophile to be treated and not punished?

Time into
Interview: 09:15

CN: Look, I don’t think you’re understanding
me. What are you punishing? If I as a normal human, if I as a normal being
choose to break the law, knowing that I'm breaking the law, then I think I need
to be punished. But if you tell me that someone who has got a psychological
condition, lets take for instance manic-depressive…

SN: No
let’s take a paedophile… No Cardinal, let’s take paedophile.

Time into
Interview: 09:42

CN: Paedophilia is something that you seem to
have a very simple answer to. From my experience paedophilia is actually an
illness, it’s not a criminal condition, it’s an illness. And that is what I get
from psychologists who have helped us to deal with cases. In fact I will tell
you one thing that I know of at least two of the priests who became paedophiles
or who committed acts against children - whether they’re paedophiles I am not
in a position to judge that because I think that needs the expert opinion – who
had been abusers had themselves been abused as children. Now don’t tell me that
those people are criminally responsible like someone who chooses to do
something like that; when they themselves have been abused as children they
then as adults they then abuse children. I don’t think you can really take the
position and say that person deserves to be punished …

SN: Really.

Time into
Interview: 10:50

CN: …when
he was himself damaged.

SN: Really.

Time into
Interview: 10:51

CN: Yes.

SN: So
you think …

Time into
Interview: 10:52

CN: You see I think when you come to a place
like this here you should actually do your research much more thoroughly
because …

SN: Cardinal, with all due respect I have spoken
over many many years of my career to many victims of abuse and what you are
saying this evening is that if someone has been abused you can understand why
they might abuse themselves and they should not be subject to a criminal
investigation. Is that what you are saying?

Time into
Interview: 11:22

CN: No I am not saying that at all. You’re
putting words in my mouth. What I’m saying …

SN: What
are you saying?

Time into
Interview: 11:25

CN: What
I am saying is can you then describe that person as a criminal …

SN: Yes.

Time into
Interview: 11:30

CN: …
if that’s the damage that’s been done to them…

SN: Yes
you can.

Time into
Interview: 11:34

CN: …by the abuse that they received. Now you
can’t tell me that that person is the same as somebody who chooses to abuse
children.

SN: Any person, Cardinal, who abusers a child
is a criminal. Why are you suggesting otherwise?

Time into
Interview: 11:50

CN: I am not suggesting … oh my goodness. Sorry
this conversation has gone long enough. You are putting words in my mouth that
I have not spoken.

SN: Well just for clarity because I do want to
be fair to you. I am sorry if I have misrepresented you.

Time into
Interview: 12:06

CN: You are really very offensive in the way
that you are trying to imply that I am not taking this thing seriously.

SN: No, no, I think you are taking this very
seriously but for clarity if someone has been abused and they then go on to
abuse a child, how do you view that activity? Is that activity criminal
activity?

Time into
Interview: 12:27

CN: I cannot pass a judgement on that. That is
a medical… that’s something that the medical people have to pass a judgement
on. Whether this person can be held criminally responsible is something that
they are in a qualified position to … qualified to make a judgement, not me.

SN: And
do you think …

Time into
Interview: 12:58

CN: I mean why do … you have, you have people
going to court and there the court declares them medically unfit to stand
trial. Now is that not saying that in some instances people have committed
crimes but because they have not been in the full control of their faculties
they have not been therefore found to be fit to stand trial for that criminal
offence. What I am saying is that in one case at least I know that the priest
who had been abused himself and when he found that this was something that was
wrong in his character he asked to be laicised.

SN: When
he was caught or after he did it?

Time into
Interview: 13:40

CN: Doesn’t matter. When he realised this was
his condition he asked to be laicised.

SN: Of course it matters. It’s a huge
difference Cardinal if someone asks to be laicised after they’ve been caught or
whether they present themselves asking for help. It’s a huge difference isn’t
there?

Time into
Interview: 13:57

CN: I don’t think that you are really serious
about this conversation because you’re trying to push me into a corner, you’re
trying to get me to say things that are going to go according to the way you
would like them to go and I don’t see what point there is in carrying on. Honestly,
if you really wanted to… you were asking me about the Pope; that was my understanding
about this conversation…

SN: Sure.

Time into
Interview: 14:17

CN: It was going to be about the Pope, now you
diverted it onto something, which is in my experience – I can’t speak for what
you’re talking about in Ireland or Europe or England – I can speak about the
cases that I have had to deal with. I have given you my clear understanding, my
clear way of dealing with those matters.

SN: Can I say sir that I do respect you and all
I am trying to do here is to get an insight into … because sexual abuse and how
the Church handles sexual abuse, this we can agree on, is a huge issue and all
I’m trying to do is get an insight, because you’ve been there, I haven’t, and
you’ve had to handle some of these cases and I’m only trying to reflect some of
the questions that maybe some of the people at home will be thinking, for
example, do you think there is …

Time into
Interview: 15:01

CN: No, no, what you are actually trying to say
– you’re trying to say that I am minimising the seriousness of the cases …

SN: Absolutely
not. Let me make it clear…

Time into
Interview: 15:09

CN: …that I am saying that somebody who has
offended – who has committed an offence against a child is not criminally
liable. I am not saying anything of the kind. I am saying that I am not
qualified to say whether they are or not.

SN: Do you think, Cardinal, that the media has
been unfair in representing the Church … over sexual abuse?

Time into
Interview: 15:26

CN: Yes, I do. I will give you an example of
why. For instance I have been asked in these last few weeks, isn’t it a pity
that Cardinal Ratzinger’s – Pope Benedict XVI’s – pontificate has gone out on
such a controversial note - look at all the way the sex abuse cases have been
mishandled. Now, I have challenged journalists and I have said look, before you
make that statement, just go and enquire into what Cardinal Ratzinger did as
head of the Doctrine of the Faith and what as Pope he has done in order to
allay some of the concerns that have arisen over sex abuse cases and how these
have been handled and if you do that research you will find that it was
precisely because bishops were not able to handle cases that Pope John Paul said
all cases, once its established that there is good reason to believe that a
child has been abused, those cases are to be referred to the Doctrine of the
Faith. I am living here at St Isidore’s and here there is one of the friars who
is full time working on those cases. So they are being handled as efficiently
and as effectively as they possibly can.

SN: Thank you so much for spending so much time
with us, I really appreciate it sir.

24 comments:

Sorry Mark. I am a Catholic living in Durban, so this is with all due respect, but the Cardinal has launched a lead balloon. There are three crucial points he did not make in this interview:

1. Paedophilia is a criminal offence. This applies whether a paedophile priest has had a traumatic childhood or not. That bit about possibly being unfit for trial simply doesn't wash. Someone unfit for trial is someone who is certifiable - who needs to be locked up in a looney bin - and that is certainly not the case with paedophile priests. Having been abused in their own childhood may be an attenuating circumstance, but it does not remove the responsibility the law considers sufficient to commit a crime.

2. The hierarchy did mishandle this issue in the recent past. Priests were shielded by their bishops, shipped from parish to parish, and effective steps were taken only when the thing blew sky high legally and in the media. This is something that has to be admitted. It's not the first time in her history that the Church has had to reform her own ranks, and under external compulsion too. Compare the papacy before and after the Sacca de Roma.

3. The Church no longer refrains from handing paedophile clergy to the law simply because the victims do not prosecute. In fact, one has a moral obligation to let justice take its course when a crime has been committed, unless a really serious circumstance intervenes, such as a confessor obliged to keep silence after learning of a crime in the confessional. Legal justice exists for a reason. As the Cardinal himself admitted, the success rate in rehabilitating paedophile priests is so low that one rehab centre in the US urges such priests to be permanently removed from ministry. Full stop. A thief, a rapist, or a robber need to be taken out of circulation a) to remove a serious threat to their fellow men, b) to enable them hopefully to reform themselves and c) to demonstrate that such deeds will not be tolerated in society. This applies just as much to paedophilia.

But the biggest omission from this interview is some sort of affirmation of how grave an offence paedophilia is, especially coming from a priest. Christ had grave things to say about those who cause one of his little ones to sin. Nowhere does the Cardinal express - as other members of the hierarchy have expressed - his deep regret for what has been done to the most vulnerable members of the laity. It is this omission more than anything else that will bring the storm down on him.

Cardinal Napier has made a statement on this interview which can be read at this address: http://sacns.scripturelink.net/2013/03/durban-cardinal-wilfred-fox-napier.html

The statement gives the Church's official approach, which is clear enough. The Cardinal's own position is perhaps a little less so. It seems that he still cannot affirm that paedophilia is a crime nor that paedophile priests should be handed over to the law regardless of whether their victims lay charges against them or not.

I think the Cardinal may have been a little clumsy in his handling of Nolan's questions. I agree that he may not have been as crystal clear in conveying his message. I think he should have been more forceful with Nolan. Often he asked Nolan a question which Nolan avoided and which may have helped the Cardinal to make his point more clearly. I suppose its an art to being interviewed and someone like Nolan does it for a living. Politicians get given extensive training in communication. Maybe our bishops need that too.

Exactly right David. Cardinal Napier said as much. For a summary see this post in which it is clarified that Cardinal Napier did say so: http://marknelza.blogspot.com/2013/03/cardinal-napier-sacrificed.html

Some support from an unlikely corner - as an atheist, I'm rather disappointed in the way some people seem to be bending over backwards to interpret Napier in the worst possible light: http://www.skepticink.com/freesociety/cardinal-napier-on-paedophilia/

Hi Mark. I read your other post and listened to the interview in full. I am always careful before I say anything and you know where I stand concerning the Church. What do you mean "He is not saying what you attribute to him?" I did not even mention him.

The interview was about paedophiles who have molested children, not people with paedophile tendencies who haven't done anything. The point is that they have committed criminal acts and - unless they are so mentally disturbed as to be certifiable - they are criminals. Plenty of criminals now sitting in jail have severe psychological hangups but have still been obliged to take responsibility for their actions.

It seems to me that the Cardinal was clear enough: paedophile priests who were abused in their childhood are not to be considered criminal when they abuse minors in their turn. The law (and, dare I say it, common sense) says different. Also that such priests should not be handed over to the authorities if the victims or their families decide not to prosecute. The Church's own procedural code - quoted by the Cardinal himself - says different.

One must respect Cardinal Napier as a prelate of the Church, and I do so respect him, but I don't think obfuscating this issue is going to help anybody. It would really be better if he admitted he was wrong. It was only one interview after all. Not a train smash.

…I fully agree that our bishops are not up to date in theart of effective communications like the politicians and because of this, we often find ourselves fouling up in manipulative interviews and on blog sites… as our case in point with paedophilia. Not that paedophilia does not occur within other denominations or religions, in fact, if truth be told; we are among the lowest percentage! Nevertheless, a crime is still a crime, irrespectively of the numbers. It’s just that paedophilia and financial mismanagement is the buzz word with Catholicism. Yes, the Church a mixture of both saints and sinners has in the past erred in handling these tragic situations and pastorally blundered in management with regard to both the victim and the perpetrator… The victim always must be shown priority, this unfortunately did not come across evidently in the interview, and that professionals from within the church and that of the medical institution as a rule manage the treatment of the perpetrator (a priest in this case) and not the hierarchy or the sentencing if criminally liable the judicial establishment then kicks in. In her defence the human element of the Church is trying, perhaps for some never enough… history will judge us on that!

He is clumsy! No dispute about that. At the same time Stephen Nolan is deliberately being obtuse.

I definitely get that Cardinal Napier believes that anyone who abuses a child has committed a criminal offence. [15:09]

What Cardinal Napier is trying to say and clearly getting frustrated at Nolan for continually misunderstanding him, which in turn is making him even more clumsy, is that it is not for him to judge whether a child abuser is a paedophile - someone with the paedophilia disorder. He is also saying that someone who has themselves been abused is clearly damaged and medical professionals need to assess if this person, because of that childhood damage, is or is not criminally culpable. They need to assess if that person has as a result of the abuse received been driven to commit abuse and to what extent that person was in control of their actions. This needs to be judged by professionals and they must then determine if that person, has grounds to claim that he is not criminally culpable for his actions. It would be disingenuous to believe anything else.

When one starts out hell bent on finding something sinister, you will find it.

Sadly Cardinal Napier is right in one of his twitter feeds. He should have shown no understanding for those people who have themselves been abused and as a consequence been driven to committing child abuse. He should have simply been totally politically correct and branded everyone criminals. Forget live, forgiveness, understanding of people circumstances. Just row the whole damn lot in jail and be done with it. Then he wouldn't be in hot water, or maybe not. Highly likely that would have been turned around to demonstrate the lack of compassion of the Church.

To hell with everyone I say. I know that Cardinal Napier does believe child abuse is criminal and that it sickens him. I also know that he thinks compassionately about everyone and the problem is that the world cannot and will not comprehend this compassion.

I like the great conversation happening here. I agree with the idea of media training for the clergy. Cardinal Napier was having an ordinary conversation which should be read in full. The media is looking for a few words to make headlines.

It wouldn't have made it to any media if the headline was; "Cardinal Napier said he is not qualified to make judgement on which priest should stand trial for child abuse". Because summing the interview up, that's what he said.

Irrespective of the culprit being mentally or psychologically ill, I would prosecute him first under the Law of the country.

Secondly, the culprit must be charged under Canon Law - no cover-ups and excuses.

Thirdly, the treatment of the crime/offense needs no excuse but must be dealt with so as to be preventative of re-occurrence..

The Church does not need "cover-ups" so that such crimes can continue by shifting the problem from dioceses to dioceses; country to country..

In my opinion , leaders like Cardinal Napier should get real in the public square and begin to condemn this type of abuse which harms the victim and which makes the Church a point of scandal, discrediting the Gospel and makes a mockery of the goodwill of ordinary people.

Finally, clergy, bishops and cardinals should not be able to hide behind their "illness" while indeed they may be faking their "innocence", fooling the world at large. .

It is very tough task that transcripts the controversial things. Very sensible and smartly work are necessary to transcript any controversial data. Its very hectic, well very nicely you have to describe all conversation of CN and SN.

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