daverupa wrote:Variable control is to be lauded; we can now remove exercise as a significant variable in favor of a focus on others: sunshine, company, mobility (qua motion, not exertion), etc. Such is the progress of a scientific understanding.

Instead of sweaty bodies, psychotherapy could go for clean minds with meditation There are studies that suggest that meditation may be as effective as medication in some cases, so that's a way that will hopefully get more public attention in the future. (although i'd be interested in finding out about some combined-treatment studies with medication+meditation vs. medication vs meditation vs placebo. Gotta do some research when i find the time )

danieLion wrote:It's called scientificating and its caused by researchers who believe they're practicing science when in fact they're engaged in scientism. You can usually spot these types by their use of phrases like "statistically significant."

You may not like it, but it is usually better to have empirical studies, data and statistical tests than just having a wild guess or trusting someone's guts as a basis for making decisions regarding large populations.

danieLion wrote:It's called scientificating and its caused by researchers who believe they're practicing science when in fact they're engaged in scientism. You can usually spot these types by their use of phrases like "statistically significant."

You may not like it, but it is usually better to have empirical studies, data and statistical tests than just having a wild guess or trusting someone's guts as a basis for making decisions regarding large populations.

Depends on what you mean by "empirical" and "data", and which statistical test you use, etc.... There are many more alternatives than the two you postulate. metta

It might be helpful for people to read the study, and if possible to reflect a bit on how such studies work. There is nothing in the study which suggests that one should give up physical exercise if one finds it helpful, or take it up if one wants to try it out. It is acknowledged that there are short-term improvements of mood, probably attributable to endogenous opioids such as endorphins. It is acknowledged that there are numerous other benefits to physical health, such as protection of the cardio-vascular system. And exercise regimes which involve other people will probably benefit patients due to the social contact, etc. It makes no claims about the well-being which people who are not depressed can gain from exercise. People reading it would probably be aware that there will be exceptions to the statistical generalities which it deals in.

What the study does is to demonstrate that there are no significant long-term clinical benefits to patients arising from the exercise alone. It does this with a degree of scientific rigour which (we are told) is comparable to trials of chemical medication. As such, it refines our understanding of what works.

I therefore think this study is to be lauded on two accounts. First, it allows people to make more informed choices about what they want to do in order to help themselves. There is a danger that all findings and advice that are initially well-founded slip gradually into a form of "folk wisdom", in this case along the lines of "exercise cures depression". This and similar studies preserve the well-founded aspects, and eliminate some of the less helpful bits. Second, on-line discussions about the study have revealed a lot of frustration that chronically depressed patients feel with the idea that exercise is some type of panacea for their condition. Some have felt like failures because they cannot exercise, or think they cannot exercise to the intensity which will enable them to shed their problem. Some felt as if doctors had absorbed some of that "folk wisdom" and were recommending exercise because it was cheap and they had run out of other options.

I don't have any particular axe to grind over this issue, as I and my loved ones do not suffer from depression. Personally, I will continue to exercise because it makes me feel good, and hopefully it will keep the body staggering on a bit longer than otherwise. The study does not address people like me. But I find it interesting because - subject to the usual caveats attending all such research - it helps us understand the world a bit better and to clarify what helps.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Today i was in some neurophisiological conferention, and scientific that was here said that sport is helpfull with depression, but endorphines (that make us feel pleasure, and by this, help with depression) are produced by organism only after a very fast sprint, or a long intence physical exercice.

DAWN wrote:Today i was in some neurophisiological conferention, and scientific that was here said that sport is helpfull with depression, but endorphines (that make us feel pleasure, and by this, help with depression) are produced by organism only after a very fast sprint, or a long intence physical exercice.

Funny then - I'm normal BMI, do negligible exercise, and feel just fine. Never felt better.

If this were a universally true means to alleviate depression and suffering (e.g. aerobic exercise, resistance training) then don't you think the Buddha might have thought to teach such things? In the Dhamma, they are conspicuous by their absence.

Again, see the link in the original post and see if what you're saying fully reconciles with it. If not, one or the other is in error.

Surgery also causes pain. On a personal level, while exercise can be quite blissful (anandamides and all that) and the subsequent sense of well-being of having a body that that has stamina and a sense of health is nothing to sniff at, either. But experiences vary.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

Surgery also causes pain. On a personal level, while exercise can be quite blissful (anandamides and all that) and the subsequent sense of well-being of having a body that that has stamina and a sense of health is nothing to sniff at, either. But experiences vary.

The better shape I'm in, the better mediations I have (and less pain during meditation).

The main shortcoming with the exercise movement is that it is intoxication with youth, beauty, and health, and that's where I as a Buddhist religionist start pouring in the grains of salt.