Author
Topic: Do Moslems worship the same God? (Read 5866 times)

I am curious. There has been much "dialog" between Christians and Moslems, but where is the coomon Ground. God is revealed to us through scripture andTradition. God is revealed to Islam through the Koran, two vastly different revelations. Yes I know, Ghandi, that violence on both sides has been done in the name of religion, but nowhere in our New Testament is anything but kindness toward enemies is condoned. All monotheists don't necessarily worship the same God.

I think the best that can be said is that there are some good-hearted Muslims who are seeking to worship the true God. It's a situation not unlike the one that the Apostle Paul found in Athens (Acts 17 NKJV):

Quote

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

So what you are saying, is the pharoh who worshipped the sun only, Aton , worshipped the same God?I am not sure, but I believe the Moslems claim that the Jews and Christians have corrupted the old testament, so if or God is revealed through scripture, how can they share the same basis for faith?Yes they do.

All 'there is only one God' religions worship the same one God.

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?

I think the best that can be said is that there are some good-hearted Muslims who are seeking to worship the true God. It's a situation not unlike the one that the Apostle Paul found in Athens (Acts 17 NKJV):

Quote

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Good post. I tend to agree.

Theologically, however, The Muslim god is not the Christian God.

The Christian God has progressively revealed Himself as a trinitarian God that moves through His people, indwelling in them and revealing Himself dynamically in all of history through His Church (be it the NT Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church, or the OT Church, i.e., Israel.) He lives and acts in His assembly by grace.

The Muslim God is a singular God, not a trinity, whose ultimate revelation in through the last prophet Muhammad, and whose actual words, verbatim, are recorded in the Qur'an (this is why Muslims must learn Arabic. It is the language of God, and therefore the Qur'an must be read in Arabic). He does not indwell his people, the covenant Muslims, but rather rules over them through that which was revealed in the Qur'an, a system of laws and commandments.

Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

My take, for what it's worth, is that there is one God, one Truth, and one Faith. There are some, like Muslims, Baptists, mystics, even atheists that may, whether it be in a religious function/belief or simply the activity of the will/intellect (as all people were created in the likeness of God), participate in some aspects of the one Truth...but by participating in only some aspects of the one Truth, they only have/live by partial Truths and therefore are not practicing the one Faith as revealed by God.

The big question is to what degree of participation in the one Truth and one Faith is necessary to ensure salvation...but that is another question altogether.

True, there is but ONE God. However, not everyone, not every faith or religion pray to the one God.

People search....their heart knows God exists, but, many are confused and get lost.

"Then one said to Him, 'Lord, are there few who are saved?' "And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ "But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...." Luke 13:23-28

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

The Church fathers I have read suggest that the Jews in fact, do not worship the same God (if anyone knows of any fathers who suggest otherwise, please share), so correlating them with Islam does not exactly help that argument.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.

It is not important what the Jews say. The only thing that matters in this debate is whether the Old Testament denies the doctrine of the Triune God. If we read the Tanakh, we see that it does not deny this idea, but supports it implicitly. However, we cannot say the same thing about the Qur'an. It explicitly equates the doctrine of the Triune God with paganism and polytheism.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Now we have a new question: Do Jews and Muslims worship the same devil?

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Now we have a new question: Do Jews and Muslims worship the same devil?

LOL

Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.

The Church fathers I have read suggest that the Jews in fact, do not worship the same God (if anyone knows of any fathers who suggest otherwise, please share), so correlating them with Islam does not exactly help that argument.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Ah yes, Martin Luther had plenty of patristics to support his anti-semitism...(and Hitler too!)

Muslims are worshipping the triune God, they just don't know it. Of course, they would say the reverse about us... (that we are worshipping Allah and we don't know it)

Is it possible and accurate to say that the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus worshipped YHWH, but did not know it?

Well, to the extent that people worship a deity, they are worshipping God (or at least attempting to). Whether God actually accepts that worship is something else entirely. Of course, the argument may be made that they are worshipping the devil as well, and perhaps there is a 'tipping point' where worship rendered to a deity goes from one side to the other, based on how closely the idealized god represents the true God. I do think that it is a gray area though.

Well, to the extent that people worship a deity, they are worshipping God (or at least attempting to). Whether God actually accepts that worship is something else entirely. Of course, the argument may be made that they are worshipping the devil as well, and perhaps there is a 'tipping point' where worship rendered to a deity goes from one side to the other, based on how closely the idealized god represents the true God. I do think that it is a gray area though.

This reponse takes us to the distinction between the true God and false gods and once more poses this question: Do Muslims worship the true God?

Well, to the extent that people worship a deity, they are worshipping God (or at least attempting to). Whether God actually accepts that worship is something else entirely. Of course, the argument may be made that they are worshipping the devil as well, and perhaps there is a 'tipping point' where worship rendered to a deity goes from one side to the other, based on how closely the idealized god represents the true God. I do think that it is a gray area though.

This reponse takes us to the distinction between the true God and false gods and once more poses this question: Do Muslims worship the true God?

I think they try to the best way they know how. Again, I think the question that matters is whether God takes their sincerity into account, and judges them according to the light which they have been given.

I think they try to the best way they know how. Again, I think the question that matters is whether God takes their sincerity into account, and judges them according to the light which they have been given.

I think one's good intention is not sufficient.

How can I reach the city of Rome if I keep telling people that I am on the way to Paris and if I make every effort to reach Paris instead of Rome, without knowing that my destination is actually Rome?

I would say not. The reason why is that Islam is originally a Christian heresy, and Mohammad was deceived by the Devil appearing as Gabriel, who dictated the Koran. While the great majority of Arabs once worshiped the Trinity, now they worship a false and non-existant deity.

They can't be worshiping the Trinity because the Trinity can only be worshiped via Christ. Further, Allah is not the same as God the Father, even though they share some properties in common.

I believe that those religions which are not aware of Christ (tribal religions, the cult of the "Unknown God" in Acts, pre-Christian religions, etc.) may be worshiping the Trinity, because they have never rejected the Trinity. But Islam is aware of the truth of Christ and the Trinity, and explicitly rejects it, so I don't see how they can be worshiping a God that they reject.

That is not to say they are not responding to the universal human desire to worship the Trinity, but that does not constitute worshiping the Trinity in fact, IMO.

...but, there is a difference between not grasping something, and outright rejecting something.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I am aware of an ongoing debate among Catholics (and Orthodox?) regarding the fact (teaching) that there is no salvation outside of the (Catholic) Church. If we assume this to be true, then what about people who might live in some distant, uncivilized and uncolonized corner of the earth, have never been exposed to Revelation, have never (been given the opportunity to have) taken the Eucharist, or most importantly, have never been (given the opportunity to be) Baptized? Are such people then doomed with no possibility of getting to heaven since they are outside the Church? Or are there 'other ways' for people to be saved, e.g. Baptism of Fire, or Baptism of Desire? Some argue yes and some argue no. But if there are such 'other ways', what about Muslims or others that may have had the opportunity to hear the Truth and learn of the true Faith but denied it, is there any other way to salvation for them??

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?

I am sorry, but I totally disagree. Just because a religion is monotheistic does not make it the same God. Sects of Hinduism, for instance, are monotheistic, and I don't think anyone here would agree that Shiva or Vishnu or Kali are the same God.

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?

I am sorry, but I totally disagree. Just because a religion is monotheistic does not make it the same God. Sects of Hinduism, for instance, are monotheistic, and I don't think anyone here would agree that Shiva or Vishnu or Kali are the same God.

All theists are reaching for that One God, and success depends on what revelation they have received. No matter that a particular sect's understanding is a confused and incorrect understanding of just Who that One God is, there is only One God to reach for. So yes, Muslims do worship the same God; but their understanding of Him is incorrect, so He might look warped enough to look like another god to us. Still the One God, though.

That is what David2007 was saying.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:19:39 PM by Riddikulus »

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

I agree with those answering in the negative per John 5:23: "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

But how do we reconcile that with the fact that the Fathers have said that the Greeks worshiped the Trinity through their belief in the One and in His Logos? And that other Orthodox thinkers have said that Buddha, Lao Tzu, et al. were prophets of Christ? How can pagan worship have its fulfillment in Christ if pagan worship, according to many Fathers and hagiography, is worship offered to Satan and his demons?

Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

I agree with those answering in the negative per John 5:23: "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

But how do we reconcile that with the fact that the Fathers have said that the Greeks worshiped the Trinity through their belief in the One and in His Logos? And that other Orthodox thinkers have said that Buddha, Lao Tzu, et al. were prophets of Christ? How can pagan worship have its fulfillment in Christ if pagan worship, according to many Fathers and hagiography, is worship offered to Satan and his demons?

There may be little to no fulfillment in pagan/muslim worship in the Christian sense, but honouring the One God correctly isn't part of the question heading.

If someone says they know my Dad, but obviously to me they are claiming incorrect things about him, has that multiplied my Dad? He remains one and those people who claim incorrect things about him can't have a fulfilling relationship with him.

Muslim misunderstandings on the One God might lead them on a path that meanders, but the God at the end of the path can only be One.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:47:09 PM by Riddikulus »

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

Riddikulus, what do you think of John 5:23, quoted in my previous post?

Naturally, I agree with St John. Worship offered to a misunderstood God is flawed and not fulfilling in the sense of what worship to the One God is to be. That doesn't mean that He isn't the same God, just that people have a flawed understanding of Him. Muslims, no less that anyone, reach out to know the One God, offering limited and faulty honour to Him.

Then, we all have different and sometimes flawed understandings regarding God even as Orthodox Christians; even as we get to know Him better. But at the end of the day, there is but One God, he isn't multiplied by the flawed doctrine of the Muslims, JWs, Mormons, Southern Baptists, or anyone else.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

What the lady said. WIN!!

Logged

No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to email me at the address in my profile.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

There are many false gods that are no gods at all. There is only one true God and only one true Faith and one true Church. Everyone outside the church either misunderstands God or worships completely different gods.

Everyone doesn't worship the same God, that is heresy and Unitarianism/Ecumenism.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Wow...this kind of argument is like a flashback to my RC days. I didn't know Orthodox thought this way too.

Anyway, if there are no false gods by virtue of there only being one God to begin with, then what do we make of the many verses in both the Old and New Testaments that warn against following or worshiping or serving such false gods? Why can't it be that Christianity actually has it right and all the other religions do not? That's what I believe, anyway. I thought we all believed that, not this "anything that someone calls 'god' is actually God" business. That kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly.

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Why can't it be that Christianity actually has it right and all the other religions do not? That's what I believe, anyway. I thought we all believed that, not this "anything that someone calls 'god' is actually God" business. That kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly.

Ok - let's try again...

I never said that Christianity doesn't actually have it right and that other religions have it wrong.... Oh heck. Why do I bother? I'm going for a swim.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.