Originally posted by evilwaldoMost of the cuts came on the offense, which was not very good to begin with, so hopefully if they draft well they can recover quickly. I think there are only 3 or 4 offensive starters left.

Including the expansion draft and retirement, the Ravens have let go of 13 players: 7 on offense, 6 on defense. Yeah, technically "most" of the cuts were on offense.

With more losses from free agency pending, I'd like to thank the Ravens for participating in next year's NFL season. They have NO shot at the playoffs. With guys like Art Modell and Brian Billick in charge of the team, I'd say it couldn't have happened to two nicer, more humble guys.

Originally posted by SerWolfeit's still a shame that a team has to cut their talent to stay under the cap.... i think that was some bad salary cap management....

Its not really bad salary cap management, its just the way the league is nowadays. The Ravens wouldnt be in the position but they mortgaged their future on trying to repeat as Super Bowl champions. It was a worthwhile gamble but they lost. Thats the way it is, If you want to see a team with bad cap managing skills check out the Cowboys and Redskins.

Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0Its not really bad salary cap management, its just the way the league is nowadays. The Ravens wouldnt be in the position but they mortgaged their future on trying to repeat as Super Bowl champions. It was a worthwhile gamble but they lost. Thats the way it is, If you want to see a team with bad cap managing skills check out the Cowboys and Redskins.

(edited by rockdotcom_2.0 on 3.3.02 1447)

I see no possible way that you can justify what the Ravens did to try and repeat as "a worthwhile gamble" and then point to the Cowboys and Redskins as the poster children of salary cap mismanagement. 1)The Cowboys were victims of their own success. Each season in their 90s heyday, the Cowboys lost marquee player after marquee player to other teams. Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin both had their careers cut short due to injuries. They have an owner who wants to pick the players and coach them as well. If Aikman and Irvin were healthy--they'd still be Super Bowl contenders. The Cowboys are bad because of poor luck and personnel decisions, not because of th cap. 2)Just for the sake of argument and letting you be correct, I don't see a difference in what the Ravens did to what Redskins did in gambling on overpaying aging stars in an effort to win the Super Bowl in 2000. It didn't pay off, and they had cap problems going into last season, but Marty Schottenheimer solved them in one year. They went into this offseason under the cap, albeit not by very much--but that's much more than can be said for every other NFL team. Every other NFL had to cut at least one player to get under the cap. The Skins haven't cut anyone yet.

My friend, if you want to discuss cap mismanagement, you have to discuss the Ravens. There's no way around it. They have lost 13 players already. That is amazing. You have to look at the 49res 4 years ago and what they've been going through to get back to respectability. You have to look at the Jaguars and what they've had to do to cut salaries the past two seasons. These are the teams to look at as poor examples of cap management.

I point to the Cowboys and Redskins as bad cap managers because of the high amounts of dead money they were carrying in the last two years. Especially the Cowboys who had something like 25 million in dead money on their cap. Thats bad cap management no matter how you look at it. The

And the diffrence beteween the Ravens and Skins is that the Ravens were the defending Super Bowl champions. They werent trying to contend, they were already a elite team. And they didnt pay overage stars like the Skins did, they had a core group of players still in their prime. Like Shannon Sharpe and Woodson who were playin all-pro level ball. They did what they thought they needed to do to in the elite circle. It was gutsy but it didnt work. Now they have to pay the piper. To me the biggest mistake was bringing in Grbac, and then dumping him after one year. I think Billick hung Grbac out to dry, hes the one thats supposed to be the offensive genius. He shouldve shouldered more blame for their offensive woes. But thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0I point to the Cowboys and Redskins as bad cap managers because of the high amounts of dead money they were carrying in the last two years. Especially the Cowboys who had something like 25 million in dead money on their cap. Thats bad cap management no matter how you look at it.

Yeah, they do have dead money, but you still don't see them unloading every player on their roster because of this. So you can try and justify your position all day long, you're still picking two teams from the middle of the cap mismanagement pack and ignoring the real dregs of the league--the Ravens, the Jags, the Jets, the 49ers up until last season.

And the diffrence beteween the Ravens and Skins is that the Ravens were the defending Super Bowl champions. They werent trying to contend, they were already a elite team. And they didnt pay overage stars like the Skins did, they had a core group of players still in their prime. Like Shannon Sharpe and Woodson who were playin all-pro level ball. They did what they thought they needed to do to in the elite circle. It was gutsy but it didnt work. Now they have to pay the piper.

Still can't agree with you. The point of every season is to win the Super Bowl, and each season, you start from scratch. The previous season's Super Bowl champ gets no byes...so they are contending just like any of the other 30 teams in the league. The Ravens didn't start off any better than the rest of the league. The year that the Redskins got Bruce Smith, Deion, Mark Carrier, and Jeff George, they were coming off a season in which they were a field goal away from the NFC Championship. Smith and Deion were still All-Pros, and there was absolutely no buzz beforehand that Deion's skills had deteriorated as much as they had--and he was still one of the best CBs in the league with the Skins. George had just come off his best season in his career with the Vikings. These were stupid personnel moves in hindsight.

Originally posted by BDCYeah, they do have dead money, but you still don't see them unloading every player on their roster because of this. So you can try and justify your position all day long, you're still picking two teams from the middle of the cap mismanagement pack and ignoring the real dregs of the league--the Ravens, the Jags, the Jets, the 49ers up until last season.<

Hmmmm.... well the Cowboys didnt purge a lot of talent but they didnt aquire any either. Every single worthwhile all-pro and decent veteran they have was let go long ago. The only reason Emmitt Smith is still on that team is that Jerry Jones wants him tom break the Walter Payton career rushing record as a Cowboy. As far as pointing out the cap villians in the league, there are lots of them. But all the teams you mentioned still manage to contend despite their cap problems. Where as the Cowboys and Skins werent contenders past week 4. My point is it aint really bad cap management as long as youre still contending. And right now, you really cant say whether the Ravens will contend next year, maybe a revamped offense will be the spark they need. Plus theyve got a smaller division to deal with. I guess well see wont we?

I disagree with you on the Sanders and Jeff George thing. I love Deion Sanders probably more than anybody, but every football insider I read on the net was calling his high priced signing as idiotic when it happened. The buzz on his decline was loud and clear from where I could see. Same with Jeff George, every football guy tried to warn the skins but Snyder signed him because he was awed bye his arm strength.

Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0 well the Cowboys didnt purge a lot of talent but they didnt aquire any either. Every single worthwhile all-pro and decent veteran they have was let go long ago. The only reason Emmitt Smith is still on that team is that Jerry Jones wants him tom break the Walter Payton career rushing record as a Cowboy.

Yes, Jerry Jones wants Emmitt to break Payton's record as a Cowboy, but so does Emmitt. However, your statement as a whole is completely erroneous. The Cowboys have been victims of their own success and bad luck more than cap woes. They won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. Every free agent they had got offered tons more money by other teams to go elsewhere--and most got overpaid because the Cowboys system made them better than they were, for the most part. Brock Marion, Larry Brown, Alvin Harper, Mark Stepnoski, James Washington...those are just some of the names off the top of my head from the Super Bowl teams that took big money and with the exception of Marion--didn't really do anything for other teams. They've been DECIMATED by injuries to their core players: Troy Aikman, Moose Johnston, Jay Novacek, Michael Irvin...they brought in Joey Galloway to replace Irvin, and he tears his ACL before playing a game, and Aikman gets killed by LaVar Arrington, and they didn't have a credible backup. So before we play revisionist history with the Cowboys, the facts need to be examined.

As far as pointing out the cap villians in the league, there are lots of them. But all the teams you mentioned still manage to contend despite their cap problems. Where as the Cowboys and Skins werent contenders past week 4. My point is it aint really bad cap management as long as youre still contending. And right now, you really cant say whether the Ravens will contend next year, maybe a revamped offense will be the spark they need. Plus theyve got a smaller division to deal with. I guess well see wont we?

The Skins went 0-5, then 5-0 and were serious NFC East contenders until they lost a winnable game against the Eagles. Now I'm starting think you don't even watch football. And I can't really say that the Ravens won't contend? Don't you see what has happened? Their QB is Chris Redman, who hasn't gotten as much as a grass stain in the NFL. Jamal Lewis is coming off of his second big knee injury--who knows if he can even regain his rookie season form. They don't have much of an offensive line outside of Jonathan Ogden. They have one WR in Travis Taylor. They have next to nothing left on defense...Michael McCrary, Peter Boulware, Ray Lewis, and Cris McAllister. Good to great players all, but they have a new Defensive Coordinator--who isn't any good--and will have to replace SEVEN starters? Not to mention they let go of the best KR/PR in the game in Jermaine Lewis. No, my friend, the Ravens will NOT contend. They have NO shot.

I disagree with you on the Sanders and Jeff George thing. I love Deion Sanders probably more than anybody, but every football insider I read on the net was calling his high priced signing as idiotic when it happened. The buzz on his decline was loud and clear from where I could see. Same with Jeff George, every football guy tried to warn the skins but Snyder signed him because he was awed bye his arm strength.

I will concede this point to you: The pundits did say that the contract they gave Deion was insane relative age and skill level. But outside of a few fringe guys, the guys whose opinions I respect all felt like the move itself of bringing in Deion was smart because it meant your CBs went three deep with Darrell Green in the nickel, which meant they could defend against the Vikings and Rams who went at least three deep at WR. The Redskins had the #3 overall defense that year, and were #1 against the pass, so that move was strong.

As far as Jeff George, again, I concede that the contract paid to him to be the supposed backup to Brad Johnson was insane. However, nobody disputed his ability and with Johnson's tendencies to get injured, the same guys all felt that having a back-up of George's ability--especially with the way he came off the bench in Minnesota when Randall Cunningham got injured, turned a page in his career.

So capwise, you're right. These were bad moves because they overpaid for guys that retired in the offseason and got cut in week 2. On the other hand, since the point is to try to contend for that Super Bowl, it was as you like to say your proverbial "worthwhile gamble."

Look man I really dont want to keep arguing with you here, everybody has an opinion and I thought that "you dont watch football" comment was a bit under the belt. Neither one of us is an expert on football, we both just watch. My last word will be that The Cowboys are victims of incompent leadership. They have not drafted well since the departure of Johnson and if you dont draft well you cannot contend. Jerry Jones is intent on running that team into the ground. As far as the Ravens go, if the current NFL has proven anything its that what happens in the spring dont mean shit when the season starts. Its impossible to predict if the Ravens will contend or not. Anybody that tries to is foolish because alot can happen between now and September. They can still aquire some decent talent, they can still draft well and who knows how Redman will do. Billick has gotten more out of less. As far as the Skins, they were only a contender because the NFC east is pathetic. Against the class of the NFC in the playoffs I wouldnt have given them a prayer. And Jeff George aint the answer for anybody. The guy has never proven himself to be a premier QB other the fact he throws a pretty ball. Thats why the Vikes were willing to let Jeff George walk and go with Culpepper. OK Im done....I hope the brothers Zim dont send us a nastygram.

Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0Look man I really dont want to keep arguing with you here, everybody has an opinion and I thought that "you dont watch football" comment was a bit under the belt. Neither one of us is an expert on football, we both just watch. My last word will be that The Cowboys are victims of incompent leadership. They have not drafted well since the departure of Johnson and if you dont draft well you cannot contend. Jerry Jones is intent on running that team into the ground. As far as the Ravens go, if the current NFL has proven anything its that what happens in the spring dont mean shit when the season starts. Its impossible to predict if the Ravens will contend or not. Anybody that tries to is foolish because alot can happen between now and September. They can still aquire some decent talent, they can still draft well and who knows how Redman will do. Billick has gotten more out of less. As far as the Skins, they were only a contender because the NFC east is pathetic. Against the class of the NFC in the playoffs I wouldnt have given them a prayer. And Jeff George aint the answer for anybody. The guy has never proven himself to be a premier QB other the fact he throws a pretty ball. Thats why the Vikes were willing to let Jeff George walk and go with Culpepper. OK Im done....I hope the brothers Zim dont send us a nastygram.

1)We're not arguing. We're having a discussion.2)You are correct that the Cowboys have horrible management. Jerry Jones is a horrible owner/GM/pseudo-coach. That still doesn't mean that their roster troubles are cap-related. It's stupid decision related, just like you said.3)If the Ravens are so over the cap that they have to unload 13 players just to get under the cap, who can they possibly sign anyone comparable? Looking at the free agent market, its already thread-bare. The Ravens can't afford any of the top guys, and can't afford to sign too many players in general. They will have to restock through the bargain basement 3rd tier players who will accept league minimums and the draft. I don't see any way that they contend for a playoff spot.4)The Eagles went to the NFC Championship game. Had they made the playoffs, that would have meant that rather than having gone 8-3 in their last 11 games, they would have gone at LEAST 10-1...which would have meant a victory of two of the following three teams: Cowboys, Eagles, Bears. I would have given them a shot against anyone that made the playoffs in the NFC based purely on momentum. We'll agree to disagree on that, though. Pure conjecture on both our parts.5)Nobody said Jeff George was anyone's answer as a starting QB. He had a great season in Minnesota, and a lot of people thought that George as a backup was a great idea. Common sense and history obviously dictate otherwise seeing as how he is still unemployed and probably won't get a look from another NFL team until every other QB goes down with an ACL tear.