Swim With The Whales [Final Release]

Swim With The Whales is a set of 3 boom-compatible maps designed around abstract environments, very challenging gameplay, and elaborate optional areas. I spun the color wheel and landed on blue this time around so expect plenty of it. The maps are meant to be played from pistol start but because there's only 2 consecutive levels with monsters in them I guess it doesn't matter too much. Here's some screenshots:

It's also worth noting I handled difficulties a little different this time around:

UV: dickishly hard, tight resources, inescapable pits, the occasional platforming puzzle, glory awaits you!HMP: probably the most fun to play on, more room for mistakes, less harsh traps, no more mandatory platforming sections, etc.HNTR: should be beatable by pretty much everyone.

Short version: I encourage you to start on HMP, and bump it up if you find it too easy.

EDIT Map 02:
Yeah, screw this. The Mastermind fight is awful, and pretty much invialidates the idea of playing the wad further, at least for me. Sometimes the damn thing just won't fire if you're standing near the enemies you need him to kill, and whether he pounds you for a million damage or just pisses everyone else off is basically down to luck.

Share this post

Link to post

Well if this isn't the prettiest level set I've seen in a while. I rather liked MAP01 and enjoyed just wandering around a bit. MAP02 was good, extremely "encounter-based" which is kind of unusual to see, to this degree anyhow.

I didn't much like the Spiderdemon fight either, though I didn't hate it to the point Cynical did. But he seems to go very long without shooting at all sometimes. I don't know if giving him a bit more space to move would help at all.

The dual cyberdemon fight was interesting, I knew what was going to happen going in but it wasn't nearly as annoying as I thought it might be. I got killed a few times until I switched to SSG-only which worked fine.

Tried some FDA playing but not only was I playing bad, I was having mouse issues, so I stopped. Of course once I went with saves I started playing... well, competently at least. Going to have a go at MAP03 later, since I snuck a peek at the monster count in the alt-hud and it looks quite large. Curious to see how much things change on UV, will probably go back and also try for 100% kills/secrets.

Share this post

Link to post

Indeed certain usages of that texture would benefit from less obvious tiling. I might make the effort to cook up a smoother version of the scales for instances like that.

Demon of the Well said:

What's the next color? Teal? Magenta?

I'm unsure if my next release will be explicitly colored in a similar way. Seems like given enough maps/time it would be largely thought of as a gimmick (if it isn't already).

plums said:

extremely "encounter-based" which is kind of unusual to see, to this degree anyhow.

Not if you've played anything else by me :)

idk, it's the style of gameplay I personally find the most enjoyable. Concocting gameplay situations to try and coax (aka force -.-) the player to handle scenarios a specific way (or limited number of near-optimal ways) is pretty much my MO. I'm sure I'll be at odds with those dislike this approach, but oh well. I make maps for a niche of doomers that I'm not sure exist :p

@Mastermind fight:

Help from the MM really isn't required on HMP, it's easy enough to expose the vile and RL it to death from behind a pillar. Or it's even easier to just camp behind the chaingunner platformy thing. Apply yourself! .... or also you could take the alternate route through the map and have a plasma rifle by the time you get to that room, which makes the brute-force approach a bit easier.

Share this post

Link to post

Or it's even easier to just camp behind the chaingunner platformy thing.

There's a damaging floor there.

(Speaking of such, the damaging floor texture is hard to make out right now; frequently, at least in software render, it looks like just another floor unless you're really looking for it. I'd recommend trying to find a way to screw with the palette to make it bright red or something.)

Share this post

Link to post

idk, it's the style of gameplay I personally find the most enjoyable. Concocting gameplay situations to try and coax (aka force -.-) the player to handle scenarios a specific way (or limited number of near-optimal ways) is pretty much my MO. I'm sure I'll be at odds with those dislike this approach, but oh well. I make maps for a niche of doomers that I'm not sure exist :p

I have played some maps of yours, not enough to know that it's how you always run things I guess. And I liked it in fact, it works fine, it's just somewhat unusual to have the level constantly tell you "here's what you've got to fight next, hit that switch when you're ready!" It's almost like a console RPG where the combat and the world exploration are completely distinct phases.

Share this post

Link to post

well the justification there was largely for the sake of UV: I wanted encounters to be seriously/frustratingly difficult, but not in a "surprise, you're dead!" way. so I decided that allowing the player to see everything before it happens (most of the time) via invisible walls or monsters facing away was going to be a prominent element in these maps.

also there's a fun surrealness about monsters frozen in place that I like :)

Share this post

Link to post

I decided to despair-quit Map02 after grinding my way through the SM battle, then the Revvie/Archie battle, and when the timed-teleporters began delivering the Imps and Chaingunners, I figured my death-count was epic enough by then -- well north of 20 on HMP! I'll give it a whirl on HNTR tomorrow night.

Funny how it was the Imps and Chaingunners that scared me more than the big boys. ;D

Lovely, lovely maps, I must say. The blue is awesome, great atmosphere and tone, wonderful, flowy abstract architecture. Just a feast for the eyes. I really can't think of another mapper with a style like yours.

Gameplay is traps/setpieces on the gnarly end of the difficulty scale. I tend to prefer lots of incidental combat sprinkled with traps. Your approach takes some getting used to. As I learned on Stardate 20x6, I like the lower difficulty settings well enough, so thanks for including them.

Share this post

Link to post

I'm glad you'll give HNTR a try, let me know if you think any areas are too easy/hard, or if ammo is way excessive etc. I did play through a couple times on that difficulty, but it wasn't quite as rigorously tuned as the others.

Share this post

Link to post

Aside from that Spider Mastermind fight (you will never convince me that fight is OK as it is now), it's actually really good. The dark blue side is a lot more fun as a whole than the light blue side is; that Revenant/Arch-Vile/Cacodemon fight is great. The Cyb fight is a bit wonky, but it's at least pretty creative, and it's not too annoying, although it's possible for a Cyb to get stuck for a few seconds on some occasions (happens in the demo below). I'm not entirely convinced of the utility of that "Soulsphere + Megarmor secret in an area where both of those items are about five feet away in non-secret areas, oh and I'm springing a kinda nasty Pain Elemental surprise on you", but eh, whatever.

I'm surprised to see people calling this setpiece-driven; I was actually surprised at how many options it gave the player to tackle things out of order, or take multiple approaches, given what I've played of your previous work. It looks like it's even possible to get the Dark Blue key before the rocket launcher, if you're willing to leave some Revenants alive (I nearly do that in my demo, although I end up dying stupidly to the HKs about 3 feet away). The flow and layout here are a LOT better than what I played of Stardate (the first three maps).

Does that secret in the Cyberdemon room mean it's possible to skip killing them? If so, color me surprised that you'd be willing to allow the player to do that. (I didn't find it until my second trip through the room, so I don't know what happens if you find it your first time.)

Share this post

Link to post

Had some fun on UV in map2, I finally got the idea of how to handle the first few bits after like 15 deaths, not much going on until then. I decided I needed a bit of a break after the SM murdered me, I'll probably try again tomorrow.

Unfortunately the first cyb becomes really boring to deal with after I went with the platform strat, and it breaks the flow of the map a ton. Not really much to be done about it unless you want to make the HK/baron mix all barons, but that makes it much easier if you just run around the arena.

The fight with the blue key visible seems a bit extreme without the plasma gun, and I haven't gotten to it yet so I went the other way. Up to it is doable though, so technically non-linearity is there, just, no way back up from what I can tell makes it pretty much suicide.

Share this post

Link to post

Whoops, I played MAP03 instead of sleeping. Liked this one, though I think I preferred MAP02, just 'cause I'm not much of a slaughtermap kind of guy. That's OK though. Also the first little while was very short on ammo, playing from pistol start. I kind of wish I kept my gear in hindsight because there was enough to deal with most of the time, without rationing bullets.

I need to reiterate just how beautiful these maps look. The automaps alone are gorgeous.

Some possible bugs in MAP03:
* The lift being aimed at here makes no sound.
* In the black key room, you can shoot without alerting the monsters if you're pressed up right against the bars blocking the exit. This way I was able to wake a single vile, and then when he attacked be I could shoot the exit trigger while in the air, and leave that room pretty much unscathed. I report this with some reluctance because I don't think I could've survived that room any other way, especially since I got to it early(?) by a vile-jump in the previous area.

Also in MAP02 I got a little lost after the dual-cyberdemon fight, some health-potion breadcrumbs might help?

Cynical: glad you pulled through. I didn't think these maps are that linear actually, just that most of the encounters, when you engage them, are very self-contained and distinct. Less so for the 3rd map than the 2nd though.

Share this post

Link to post

Share this post

Link to post

Hell yeah! I can't wait to give this a shot tomorrow. Judging by the screen shots it looks like you took Michelle Keegan and converted her to wad format in other words; it looks stunning. Stardate 20x6 and that Qbert map were the nuts. So I know that this will dish out the same quality of fun but I didn't realise you would be nearly finished this quick.

Share this post

Link to post

Well now, after seeing the controversy I had to have a go. Unfortunately that mastermind battle on map 2 is as far as I got. Seems like the only option is to not fire a shot and try getting the mastermind to hit everything. This can be quite tedious though, and you take some compulsory bullets while you are doing it so ends up being quite a deadly chore.

I have to say it looks gorgeous though. I'd agree that the damaging floor needs to stand out more, but can't fault the looks at all, and I like the idea of diving to the ocean depths. I just get the feeling from that mastermind fight that I'm not going to enjoy it, so its probably a good thing you stuck that in early.

Share this post

Link to post

...So, Death-Destiny's heir apparent and Insane Gazebo's devoted disciple has thus declared a new era of crude double penetration for all those with unnatural perversions affinity. Considering the fact that I still occasionally have brutal sex with Stardate (with bloodstained bedsheets and torn outfits and all that) - this affects me in a way that this torment doesn't seem to end. I guess shortly after you'll just make another mapset with another color in mind and this way make sure my punishment goes on. Because life is pain. At least I know I should keep my lubricant can close all the time. Because temptation is too strong to resist and self-mutilation is so inviting to succumb.

Screenshots give me eyegasm as always, though basically it's just another Electric Wizard/Anathema/Stardate with different dominant color. Stability is an underrated virtue, huh?

I presume you know by now how I like it. UV now and forever and lots!, lots!!, lots!!! of excessively abusive foul language expressions aimed at you, these maps and the whole world mean enough to allow for such ruthless torturers to exist. That's how we roll, right.

Ribbiks said:

no more mandatory platforming sections, etc.

This makes me curious. Do difficulty settings affect key & weapon placement in a way that you have to collect them differently?

Share this post

Link to post

The flow and layout here are a LOT better than what I played of Stardate (the first three maps).

bah! In terms of layout I think the strongest maps in stardate are 05 and 06...

Does that secret in the Cyberdemon room mean it's possible to skip killing them?

Yes, the cybs are completely optional. Their only use is if you manage to conserve leftover megasphere health or leftover plasma ammo, also completing the arena opens up access to a secret area elsewhere in the map. In my playthroughs I skip it most of the time tbh.

ArmouredBlood said:

Unfortunately the first cyb becomes really boring to deal with after I went with the platform strat, and it breaks the flow of the map a ton. Not really much to be done about it unless you want to make the HK/baron mix all barons, but that makes it much easier if you just run around the arena.

I see where you're coming from, but am not entirely sure how I would improve it yet. I toyed around with having HKs tele in after the RL grab, so keeping the cyb alive through that was sort of the intended strat, but I wasn't completely happy with it.

@ plums

thanks for the bugs and suggestions!

edit: splitting this post into 2 because for some reason the formatting keeps breaking.

Share this post

Link to post

Your patience is legendary, grats on finding such an unorthodox strategy :)

mouldy said:

Unfortunately that mastermind battle on map 2 is as far as I got.

eesh, the fact that that mastermind fight is such a roadblock for so many people is surprising me, it didn't really give me or my playtesters any trouble. I'm comfortable now nerfing that area a little bit on HMP.

Demonologist said:

Screenshots give me eyegasm as always, though basically it's just another Electric Wizard/Anathema/Stardate with different dominant color.

As much as I want to resent this comment you're mostly right :p Lot of 45-degree angles, buttery smooth curves and streaks of color X are pretty much my jam. Though I did attempt to introduce and experiment with some new visual ideas as well.

I presume you know by now how I like it. UV now and forever and lots!, lots!!, lots!!! of excessively abusive foul language expressions aimed at you, these maps and the whole world mean enough to allow for such ruthless torturers to exist. That's how we roll, right.

Despite blasting the notion of HMP being the standard I did secretly hope a few people would strap on their assless chaps and give UV a whirl. Screaming at your computer and hating me is several notches above instant rage-quitting, so I'm ok with it :D

This makes me curious. Do difficulty settings affect key & weapon placement in a way that you have to collect them differently?

It mainly affects item placement towards the beginning of the maps, gathering crucial resources is a bit easier on HMP. Key placement is unaffected, but on HMP (and HNTR) there are some extra weapon pickups in key areas where the player would be fucked if they missed it earlier in the map (on UV you're afforded no such luxury :p)

Share this post

Link to post

I change my mind, you get the patience award. Excellent demo, thanks! Was fun to watch you wander about and gradually figure out how to deliver swift ownings to each of the areas. Moreover I think you're the first person to beat map02 without saves so grats :)

sorry about the triple posting -.-, for some reason when I had it all in one big post the quote sections were getting fucked up

Share this post

Link to post

That looks purdy like when stimpy licked the hair off bubba's back.
Map 2: you can grab ssg from below, I don't care though I like it that way. The mastermind will shoot more frequently if you give him a bit more roaming room. Viles have this same weird behavior when trying to make an 'infinitely resurrecting chaingunner'; if the vile has a very thin hallway, he will barely resurrect at all but if his hallway is big he resurrects a lot more for some reason. I think mastermind is similar, will shoot much more if has more roaming room (experiment to see how much, might just need 64 floor space or something more). You can wake up all the hell knights only by just bumping into them leaving the viles dormant.