This is a discussion on Squeezing with AK? within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; I found that squeezing with AK from the blinds is a useless play at 2NL Zoom. It costs me more than it earns. For example:
Poker

I feel like I'm still getting called by medium PPs and when the flop comes ragged I have nothing to do, epecially in a multiway pot. Feeling like I'm wasting money 66% of the time when I miss.

#2

3rd May 2014, 4:36 PM

Arjonius [3,167]

Squeezing at 2nl, whether zoom or not, is likely to be FPS. Think about the appropriate conditions to make this play. Isn't one of them that the other players are capable of folding a decent portion of the time? How well does this apply at 2nl?

Yeah cbet is a waste of money here. Squeezing OOP is not great at 2NL (10NL is minimum for this I think).

#5

3rd May 2014, 6:23 PM

akaRobbo [656]

Online Poker at: Stars

Game: NLHE

Originally Posted by LD1977

Yeah cbet is a waste of money here. Squeezing OOP is not great at 2NL (10NL is minimum for this I think).

+1. I moved up to 10nl a short time ago. Squeezing works quite well at 10.

At 5 and 2 squeezing or 3 betting OOP just really wasn't profitable at all. More people play tighter at 10, so people are stealing more from CO and BTN with a 3xBB raise and generally have more positional sense and play much wider in those late positions. Making squeezing/ light 3bets from the blinds profitable.

#6

3rd May 2014, 6:32 PM

SwiftHax [367]

Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NL Holdem

Ok, just what I thought

What would be my standard play here? Call and fold the flop if missed?

#7

3rd May 2014, 6:47 PM

c9h13no3 [8,448]

re: Poker & Squeezing with AK?

Originally Posted by SwiftHax

Feeling like I'm wasting money 66% of the time when I miss.

But you win a much bigger pot when you hit. And you get heads up more often. 3-betting AK for value is a standard thing here unless the raiser is one of those 60/1 types.

This is a standard spot. Kinda sucks that you didn't get heads up, but whatever. I still c-bet this board unless I have stats saying otherwise. You can turn a lot of equity.

#8

3rd May 2014, 6:53 PM

akaRobbo [656]

Poker at: Stars

Game: NLHE

Were always raising PF with AK no matter what position, because we dominate so many hands and can get good value out of AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ etc. It is annoying when we miss though having committed a fair bit pre but just need to be disciplined.

Don't c-bet this OOP multiway, unless you have stats suggesting these players have fold equity. If its checked around to us then maybe we can stab if we were IP. The amount of trash people call with at the micros, this flop could have hit them hard, flush draw too. Check fold here im afraid

#9

3rd May 2014, 7:31 PM

SwiftHax [367]

Online Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NL Holdem

Originally Posted by akaRobbo

Were always raising PF with AK no matter what position, because we dominate so many hands and can get good value out of AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ etc. It is annoying when we miss though having committed a fair bit pre but just need to be disciplined.

Don't c-bet this OOP multiway, unless you have stats suggesting these players have fold equity. If its checked around to us then maybe we can stab if we were IP. The amount of trash people call with at the micros, this flop could have hit them hard, flush draw too. Check fold here im afraid

Ok, thanks I lost quite a sum in these sitautions.

#10

3rd May 2014, 7:43 PM

DonkeyH3AD [564]

to much people call and this board has many draws options so big chance You will get called by another I wont bluffing here check here and if another club go on turn than bet

#11

3rd May 2014, 7:57 PM

suby_rafael [1,039]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem,omaha

I agree i would play this hand very passively at 2nl zoom as 3bet OOP is just going to bloat the pot and we are going to miss flop a pretty decent number of time. What i would do is just call pre flop and try to chase a pair, two pair, one card flush stuff like that but only if we get decent price. If there is a 3 bet post flop we fold this as we do not get a good price anymore. 2nl zoom is a fishtank.

#12

3rd May 2014, 9:37 PM

SwiftHax [367]

Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NL Holdem

Originally Posted by suby_rafael

I agree i would play this hand very passively at 2nl zoom as 3bet OOP is just going to bloat the pot and we are going to miss flop a pretty decent number of time. What i would do is just call pre flop and try to chase a pair, two pair, one card flush stuff like that but only if we get decent price. If there is a 3 bet post flop we fold this as we do not get a good price anymore. 2nl zoom is a fishtank.

When are you ever getting the right price to go for backdoor flushes? Especially OOP.

I feel like I should take a passive route as well. If I flop something, I'll get some value out of dominated hands.

#13

3rd May 2014, 9:44 PM

OMGITSOVER9K [2,994]

Online Poker at: Stars

Game: Holdem

are people really saying we should flat AK here

really

#14

3rd May 2014, 10:07 PM

T0mmmi [152]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

re: Poker & Squeezing with AK?

Originally Posted by SwiftHax

I found that squeezing with AK from the blinds is a useless play at 2NL Zoom. It costs me more than it earns. For example:

I feel like I'm still getting called by medium PPs and when the flop comes ragged I have nothing to do, epecially in a multiway pot. Feeling like I'm wasting money 66% of the time when I miss.

Hi Man !

I would not recommend use of any squeeze or something else on such low limits as you be called but too many players > which results to that some of the hit eventually something and you will loose more than win.

Play it Tight and Aggressive and you should be OK

Good Luck @TAbles !

#15

7th May 2014, 12:47 AM

Ubercroz [653]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by OMGITSOVER9K

are people really saying we should flat AK here

really

I have been seeing a lot of people on this forum advocating this kind of move.

I don't get it and I wish I could convince people that AK should be raised and should be treated like a premium hand because IT IS.

Its like reading forum posts from 2005.

#16

7th May 2014, 9:32 AM

swingro [1,634]

Poker at: fulltilt.com

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by Ubercroz

I have been seeing a lot of people on this forum advocating this kind of move.

I don't get it and I wish I could convince people that AK should be raised and should be treated like a premium hand because IT IS.

Its like reading forum posts from 2005.

I cannot belive it eather.
It is like we are being invaded by passive fish.
Cmon ppl. 3-bet with AK and c-bet HU no matter what the board is, regardless of position. 1/3 times hit it is more than enough to make profit. You just need to adjust your betsize when you hit and when you miss because they will not notice.
If it is a multiway pot than you can shutdown and check flop when you miss.

#17

7th May 2014, 9:50 AM

el_magiciann [1,881]

Online Poker at: bet365

Game: Hold'em

Yeah at this limit as lot of others said you should not raise because you can get a lot of callers and that CB is waste of money, so probably check/fold here is the correct play.

#18

7th May 2014, 10:31 AM

RodneyC86 [592]

Poker at: PS

Game: NLHE

it's not a bluff squeeze people. Just 3bet it and get over it on the flop if you miss (ie don't cbet, your fold equity is non-existent) . Otherwise go nuts and GII. 2NL is not rocket science

#19

7th May 2014, 3:03 PM

Arjonius [3,167]

It seems clear some people don't understand what a squeeze is. It's a 3bet after a bet and one or more calls with a hand that isn't good enough to 3bet for value;. i.e. you're over-repping your hand. When you 3bet in this situation with a premium hand, you're not over-repping it, which means you're not squeezing. You're simply betting for value.

In the original hand, AK is a premium holding. It's 2nl. KISS. 3bet for value.

#20

7th May 2014, 3:11 PM

kworm2013 [181]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: yes

it is not easy to play without position. UTG to raise often have something.

#21

7th May 2014, 7:29 PM

RodneyC86 [592]

Online Poker at: PS

Game: NLHE

re: Poker & Squeezing with AK?

Originally Posted by kworm2013

it is not easy to play without position. UTG to raise often have something.

Not if we have ridiculous straight up card value and on top of that we create a tiny SPR on the flop. The smaller the SPR, the less position matters.

First of all, given the pot was raised and two called, I would have at least made it a 15BB 3bet.

Now, assuming everyone here is a fish, if everyone called we have a pot size of 1.20

With 1.7 left in your stack (SPR 1.33) , it's very easy decision on the flop. Give up completely if you miss, jam the nutflush draw with two overs, or ....

if you hit your A or K....you can do one of two things - if there's a massive agrofish yet to act, you may opt to let them spaz their shit out and then call. Other wise, GII. When in doubt about their aggression, just donk GII.

EDIT: I can hardly find any positionally aware players at 2NL. UTG raise means little in most cases in my experience

#22

7th May 2014, 8:11 PM

joe777 [2,698]

yup i agree with the others.With AK preflop you should do three bet for its value.Or in this case UTG already raised three bet maybe you should not reraise cause its already a three bet.Wait and see post flop and just bail out if you dont hit anything.By the way anything can happen post flop and you should be more aware.But then again its always depend on who you are playing with a donk a shark or the super-tight guys.

#23

7th May 2014, 8:33 PM

RodneyC86 [592]

Online Poker at: PS

Game: NLHE

Originally Posted by joe777

yup i agree with the others.With AK preflop you should do three bet for its value.Or in this case UTG already raised three bet maybe you should not reraise cause its already a three bet.Wait and see post flop and just bail out if you dont hit anything.By the way anything can happen post flop and you should be more aware.But then again its always depend on who you are playing with a donk a shark or the super-tight guys.

Errr you might wanna read up on what's a 3bet... It's not the same as a raise to 3BB. 3bet is a fancy word for a preflop reraise

#24

8th May 2014, 4:30 PM

gattusoleon [48]

Poker at: Poker.stars

original part time;
The squeeze play is rampant in todays mid to high stakes No Limit cash games. I sat in a game the other day and no less than 80% of the raised pots were squeezed. Today’s multi-tablers are so focused on volume and churning out a higher win rate that a squeeze play has almost become a default response to any raise/called pot regardless of his or her holdings.This can get particularly detrimental if you’re a loose/aggressive player like me and tend to flat with an abundance of hands in late position (such as suited connectors and small pocket pairs trying to play a lot of pots in position). Instead of being able to play in position in a single raised pot you’re now forced to fold marginal holdings because of the fear of getting squeezed.
but i think that sqeze whit this hands is a another push

#25

8th May 2014, 5:12 PM

loafes [1,050]

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by gattusoleon

original part time;
The squeeze play is rampant in todays mid to high stakes No Limit cash games. I sat in a game the other day and no less than 80% of the raised pots were squeezed. Today’s multi-tablers are so focused on volume and churning out a higher win rate that a squeeze play has almost become a default response to any raise/called pot regardless of his or her holdings.This can get particularly detrimental if you’re a loose/aggressive player like me and tend to flat with an abundance of hands in late position (such as suited connectors and small pocket pairs trying to play a lot of pots in position). Instead of being able to play in position in a single raised pot you’re now forced to fold marginal holdings because of the fear of getting squeezed.
but i think that sqeze whit this hands is a another push

Flat less and 3bet more in position, problem solved

Also if the squeeze is as rampant in the games you play as you say, then can't you exploit it by flatting opens with premium hands to trap x percentage of the time?

#26

9th May 2014, 5:11 AM

Thinker_145 [843]

Poker at: bet365

Game: holdem

Just above AK every single time you get them. Its gonna work surprisingly well.

#27

9th May 2014, 9:05 AM

Aces2w1n [5,692]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

But you win a much bigger pot when you hit. And you get heads up more often. 3-betting AK for value is a standard thing here unless the raiser is one of those 60/1 types.

This is a standard spot. Kinda sucks that you didn't get heads up, but whatever. I still c-bet this board unless I have stats saying otherwise. You can turn a lot of equity.

Or we hit and get trapped with top pair top kicker on the turn.

#28

9th May 2014, 9:09 AM

Aces2w1n [5,692]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

re: Poker & Squeezing with AK?

2 people already interested in the hand and you always seem to run into ppl with medium pairs? ... Why not 3bet larger and exploit this.

People tend to overvalue pocket pairs. Sure it's great to setmine for them but if we simply raise a lot larger we can make it ugly for them and make them feel sick when they raise pre with them and force them to fold when they get the point not to mess with us.

Put yourself in their shoes... And what makes you feel awkward playing low/medium PP in early position... Well that's what you do, make them awkward best of luck man

The only problem with the extra raise is you'll need to keep focus so when they stop calling you can shrink the raise so you still get the value.

#29

9th May 2014, 10:31 AM

Staneff [245]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Holdem

you missed the flop. Your opponents might as well have missed it too so a c-bet could show you how to play this hand and what to do. The c-bet should not be more than this you afford to lose. If they fold you get pot free. If they call, you hope turn is good for u . If you get re-raised u`d better fold. I know it`s tough.

#30

9th May 2014, 1:34 PM

RodneyC86 [592]

Poker at: PS

Game: NLHE

Originally Posted by Staneff

you missed the flop. Your opponents might as well have missed it too so a c-bet could show you how to play this hand and what to do. The c-bet should not be more than this you afford to lose. If they fold you get pot free. If they call, you hope turn is good for u . If you get re-raised u`d better fold. I know it`s tough.

When you're against 4 2nl players on the flop with AK high and decide to donk shove it ,You're gonna have a very bad time.

#31

10th May 2014, 5:20 PM

SwiftHax [367]

Online Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NL Holdem

Great answers guys. Looking back at this again, I'm still undecided. If I raise I'll get called by more than one player and even when I pair my hand I might be behind a set which is really hard to get away from when OOP. When I raise too big, I'm only getting calls from JJ, QQ and sometimes AQ. The first two hands won't fold to my c-bet when I miss and AQ is always folding, so I get no value. I'm seriously thinking of shoving pre-flop or making an insanely big pre-flop raise and get it in regardless of the flop and race against pocket pairs. Sometimes I can get AQ to call too and the get max value which I couldn't have if I just made a standard sized 3-bet pre-flop.

Originally Posted by Staneff

you missed the flop. Your opponents might as well have missed it too so a c-bet could show you how to play this hand and what to do. The c-bet should not be more than this you afford to lose. If they fold you get pot free. If they call, you hope turn is good for u . If you get re-raised u`d better fold. I know it`s tough.

Not when you have 4 callers. Someone most likely picked up a draw or made a hand and even when their draws get busted, they can easily bluff you off the best hand since they have position.

#32

11th May 2014, 1:48 AM

IPlay [2,527]

Poker at: ACR

Game: Holdem

Originally Posted by Ubercroz

I have been seeing a lot of people on this forum advocating this kind of move.

I don't get it and I wish I could convince people that AK should be raised and should be treated like a premium hand because IT IS.

Its like reading forum posts from 2005.

This, I think people are just being results orientated by this particular hand.

OP should look at the mistakes he made such as the small bet sizing, there was a 3BB raise and 2 callers in front of you and you raise to 12BB. Should be closer to 15+ especially since you are OOP they need to pay up pre to see the flop. You gave UTG about 2.3 to 1 on a call, so he is calling and since he called the button is for sure calling while getting about 3.2 to 1 on a call. Also, all 3 are very deep so the implied odds are great on almost any speculative hand.

Also, as played and with this flop I am almost always CBetting here unless stats say they are almost never folding.

You have the Ac as a flush blocker, takes away LOTS of flush draws that would of called pre. Only real flush draws are small suited connectors which is no where near UTG's range and it is very unlikely he holds them. The button maybe, but it is a very small part of his range.

You have a back door straight draw. If 2c or 3c comes on the turn it is actually a great card for you.

You have 2 overs still and can easily rep a big pocket pair from your preflop, actions. I would even consider firing another barrel if the turn is a blank or an overcard to keep repping a hand such as AA or a strong ace.

So even if they are hanging on with a hand such as 1010 you are a 30% favorite to win the hand with this flop.

#33

11th May 2014, 6:11 PM

babydrago9 [225]

Online Poker at: Carbon

Game: Holdem

Yup, at this limit unless you raise pretty big there's not much point of the play. If you were playing a few levels highest it'd work, like you said medium PPs would call, they wouldn't about 70 percent of the time, and even when you do it's not always going to come out low on the flop.
This is why i never play 0.02/0.04, poker game theory never really works, its kinda like playing with play money on stars.

#34

12th May 2014, 12:07 AM

Ubercroz [653]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by babydrago9

Yup, at this limit unless you raise pretty big there's not much point of the play. If you were playing a few levels highest it'd work, like you said medium PPs would call, they wouldn't about 70 percent of the time, and even when you do it's not always going to come out low on the flop.
This is why i never play 0.02/0.04, poker game theory never really works, its kinda like playing with play money on stars.

Who cares if medium pocket pairs call our 3bet? That is a mistake they are making.

When they call with 77 and the flop is JT2 and they have 3rd pair to the board and you have two overs and a gutshot you can bet and they will still likely fold.

On the turn you have a ton of outs and they don't know where they are. They may call the turn, but if they do - then take a note because you will be able to value-bet the shit out of these people in later hands.

You can probably fire a second barrel on the turn and get a lot of folds there too. Cool down on the river. That is a fine line to take with AK, you use it as a semi-bluff. Its got a lot of equity, you are happy when they fold, and you don't mind when they call that much.

#35

12th May 2014, 8:33 PM

joe777 [2,698]

re: Poker & Squeezing with AK?

Originally Posted by RodneyC86

Errr you might wanna read up on what's a 3bet... It's not the same as a raise to 3BB. 3bet is a fancy word for a preflop reraise

Opps sorry,what i meant is 3bb not 3betting.Its just slip my mind.Thanks Rodney for reminding me.