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I've had several Wiggy's bags and clothing items. I like them but they do tend to be a little heavy. I believe his primary market though is far from the UL backpacker and more towards military or similar consumers. Like most things in order to make them more durable you pay a weight penalty.

I believe the temp ratings on the bags have been pretty spot on but the weight/bulk means for me they're reserved strictly for car or kayak camping. I do like the added security of using a synthetic in a wet environment (potential kayak/canoe dump). If I have to hump it on my back then my down bags will come along.

I don't see a lot of innovation in the products. He basically has a somewhat unique insulation product that is repackaged in a variety of simple bags/garments. I've seen a thread on here lately about a lamilite UQ but not much info from the users. I believe if Wiggy had the desire to make a TQ/UQ combo for a variety of temp ranges it would be great product, just not one you'd want to hike with.

There are few people on the planet with more cold weather trekking/camping/expedition experience than Lonnie Dupre. Lonnie was a presenter at the Winter Camping Symposium in Minnesota. When I asked him how he dealt with the buildup of frozen moisture in sleeping bags for day after day of travel in severe cold, his answer was (paraphrasing)...use a vapor barrier between sleeper and insulation. In his case, he slept in a single layer of baselayer garment using a vapor barrier "inner bag" separate him from the several inches of down in his sleeping bag. The morning routine involved a quick change into a dry baselayer before layering up for the day.

Vapor barriers can be tricky to manage, but for serious cold they can be a lifesaver.

"The more I carry the happier I am in camp; the less I carry the happier I am getting there" - Sgt. Rock

I look forward to getting a report from you. Particularly a long term report about performance (warmth, warmth when wet or damp) and durability/loft retention. Especially if that can be compared to your or your friends non-Wiggy Polarguard or Climashield bags.

I have never figured out how Wiggy manages to do what he says he does with what starts with simply Polarguard and now Climashield. It took me a long time to find out that is the base material he starts with. Even talking directly to him did not give me satisfactory answers, and in fact that ended up becoming a very unpleasant experience. But though I never quite figured out how he does it, the testimonials from many users of his product seem to indicate he does have something very beneficial in his manufacturing process. What he calls the "Lamilite". Which is simply Polarguard/Lamlite that he does something special with, apparently.

I'm going to arctic Norway for a cold survival course. Were digging snow holes every day and sleeping in them, it should be a good test with dripping roofs and damp clothes. .

Theres a good mix of bags going-PHD down, Nanok synthetic and a selection of other synth bags that I don't know of yet.

I'll definitely report back on it, assuming I've still got digits left to type with

There are few people on the planet with more cold weather trekking/camping/expedition experience than Lonnie Dupre. Lonnie was a presenter at the Winter Camping Symposium in Minnesota. When I asked him how he dealt with the buildup of frozen moisture in sleeping bags for day after day of travel in severe cold, his answer was (paraphrasing)...use a vapor barrier between sleeper and insulation. In his case, he slept in a single layer of baselayer garment using a vapor barrier "inner bag" separate him from the several inches of down in his sleeping bag. The morning routine involved a quick change into a dry baselayer before layering up for the day.

Vapor barriers can be tricky to manage, but for serious cold they can be a lifesaver.

Exactly right, vapor barriers are key. I have always used down, but can understand the cost factor. I want the person who has slept in a soaked through synthetic bag tell me how "comfortable" that was. Wet is wet, and while synthetic may be better when wet, I would not want to test that out. If enough caution and propper plannig is used wetting a bag out can be avoided, and if you plan properly you will have other methods of surviving.

I am very careful about planning and executing that plan, obviously things do not always go to plan (the best survival tool is between your ears), but thinking you are going to survive a sub zero night because you have a synthetic bag over down (when wet) is just foolish, There is just not a comparison in terms of quality, warmth to weight ratio, and bag life quality down bags such as Western Mountaineering are just better.

.. but thinking you are going to survive a sub zero night because you have a synthetic bag over down (when wet) is just foolish, There is just not a comparison in terms of quality, warmth to weight ratio, and bag life quality down bags such as Western Mountaineering are just better.

Down loses its insulating qualities when wet, synthetics maintain a large proportion of theirs. This is proven and tested, period.

Your 'foolish' comment will raise a few eyebrows, I'm taking it with the pinch of salt that it deserves as its obvious you have never used a wet down bag.

I had a trip where we had downpours and I was unprepared, although my SB was not wetted by rain, *I* was and had no way to dry off before I got in. The bag (Eureka Casper 15F) seemed to "power dry" me during the night, I never got cold (it got down to mid-30's) and woke up both warm and dry.

Maybe a down bag would have done just as well, I don't know... and I know that "an anecdote" does not equal "data". I tend to think if I was going to spend "Wiggy's Money" on sleep gear, I'd just pony up for quality down stuff. OTOH, -60 rated? THAT'S HOT.

There must be better measurements of vapor retention out there.Plenty of folks have slept in the cold, and plenty of military units have had an interest in keeping units effective.

Wiggy's pretending that vapor doesn't turn to frost, because they make the insulation "hydrophobic" isn't just silly. It is wrong.....as in "not true."

I agree that it is wrong. I don't think there is anything about hydrophobic insulation that will keep vapor or wicked moisture from freezing once it reaches outer layers that are cold enough. I have woke up after sleeping under the stars, in enough ice covered Polarguard bags, to know this for a fact. However, there is also nothing to keep it from freezing in the outer layers of a down bag. The synthetic bag won't loose any loft from this and won't when the ice melts and will dry way, way quicker.

Originally Posted by FLRider

Thanks, BillyBob58. That was an eye-opener.

....

You are welcome, glad you found it interesting!

Originally Posted by beep

There are few people on the planet with more cold weather trekking/camping/expedition experience than Lonnie Dupre. Lonnie was a presenter at the Winter Camping Symposium in Minnesota. When I asked him how he dealt with the buildup of frozen moisture in sleeping bags for day after day of travel in severe cold, his answer was (paraphrasing)...use a vapor barrier between sleeper and insulation. In his case, he slept in a single layer of baselayer garment using a vapor barrier "inner bag" separate him from the several inches of down in his sleeping bag. The morning routine involved a quick change into a dry baselayer before layering up for the day.

Vapor barriers can be tricky to manage, but for serious cold they can be a lifesaver.

You are singing my song! I have found VBs useful since the early 80s. In recent years, mainly under me in my HHSS or PeaPod. After a week in damp cold weather, zero loft lost in my PeaPod. My PeaPod and down/ non-VB using friend was not so lucky, on 2 different trips. But I have new VB clothing I am dieing to use if we would ever get any cold weather.

Originally Posted by Kia Kaha

Exactly right, vapor barriers are key. I have always used down, but can understand the cost factor. I want the person who has slept in a soaked through synthetic bag tell me how "comfortable" that was. Wet is wet, and while synthetic may be better when wet, I would not want to test that out. If enough caution and propper plannig is used wetting a bag out can be avoided, and if you plan properly you will have other methods of surviving.

I am very careful about planning and executing that plan, obviously things do not always go to plan (the best survival tool is between your ears), but thinking you are going to survive a sub zero night because you have a synthetic bag over down (when wet) is just foolish, There is just not a comparison in terms of quality, warmth to weight ratio, and bag life quality down bags such as Western Mountaineering are just better.

I have slept the night through in a wet synthetic bag with wet clothes, as I said in my above post. It was pretty unpleasant until body heat dried everything out, but I'm pretty sure a wet down bag and clothes would have been much worse, and might not have dried much at all during the night. (never had this misfortune with down, so can't say for sure NOLS would not allow down on their trips back then, at least not my instructors) Plus, I have tested my very light PG jacket by soaking it and going for a ~ 1.5 mile hike in the rain/sleet and wind. Stayed warm the entire hike and was bone dry by the end of the hike. I have not tried that with down but somebody should test it. Plus see the video in the OP.
Another time the foot of my PG bag and foot end of my HH OCF HHSS pad were SOAKED from condensation. I mean dripping water! I never even knew they were wet, feet and all else stayed totally warm. I ran into the water when I got out of the bottom entry next morning. It was time to get going. Stuffed them both in my pack wet, no drying out, hiked all day, both were dry when I set up that afternoon. If my down UQ or Golight UL 20 TQ had been that soaked, would I have stayed as warm and would they have been bone dry with full loft after a wet day in my pack? Maybe, but I don't think so. But who knows?

I love my down stuff, and usually choose it for hammock hanging, but I don't think it can really compete with Polarguard if getting wet ( from rai/snow or condensation/sweat) is a serious threat. Wet PG s*cks, wet down can be life threatening. It is better in every other way, but worse in that one way. But if you can either guarantee keeping it dry, or are able to bail if it hits the fan, no reason not to always use down.

Originally Posted by Slo

HYOH, diff'rnt strokes for diff'rnt folks

Amen, Bro! And I swing both ways when it comes to down vs synthetic. I have lots of both. Like my Climashield Yeti- whoohoo! Which, if memory serves, the very experienced hiker Cannibal, on his AT hike, got his synthetic Yeti wet more than once. What about that, Cannibal? But it was not a serious problem, because, well- Climashield!

Originally Posted by Festus Hagen

I had a trip where we had downpours and I was unprepared, although my SB was not wetted by rain, *I* was and had no way to dry off before I got in. The bag (Eureka Casper 15F) seemed to "power dry" me during the night, I never got cold (it got down to mid-30's) and woke up both warm and dry.

Maybe a down bag would have done just as well, I don't know... and I know that "an anecdote" does not equal "data". I tend to think if I was going to spend "Wiggy's Money" on sleep gear, I'd just pony up for quality down stuff. OTOH, -60 rated? THAT'S HOT.

That is really not a terrible weight for a minus 60 bag, heavy duty Wiggy's bag or not!I tend to think (but don't know) a down bag would not have done as well, based on my friend's daily decreasing loft problem when he was neither getting wet from rain or snow or getting in his bag wet. Even when we could keep our bags dry in our WP stuff sacks which, after 3 weeks were proving not all that WP, keeping ourselves dry (sweat plus rain/snow) was a different matter. Getting in the bag wet happened more than once for all of us. One day, a young lady on the NOLS course- during that summer snow storm- slipped on a hill on the snow/ice, and slid a few feet down into a drainage. On her back with a pack way to heavy for her(climbing ropes, ice axes, helmets etc). Until we could get to her, she was like an upside down turtle. On her back- pack and sleeping bag under her- in ~6" water and could not get up. ( I guess at some point she would have unstrapped her belt/shoulder straps, but we got to her and pulled her up 1st, but I think she was kind of having a good cry) She was a wet one, as the snow kept blowing. I think she was better off to be fully covered in fleece with a PG bag(even if wet) to get into after she pitched camp in the blowing snow that night.

I didn't really intend to start a synthetic vs down debate, though that's fine if folks want to debate that. For me it's just a matter of the right tool for the job, which is not always the same tool. ( 90% for me is down, even more so if extreme cold is more likely than extreme wet, particularly with VB ). My main question was: is Wiggy's really any better than other synthetics? And this impressive video had me wondering this again. (also remember: Wiggy's bags are not only heavy due to synthetics, but also due to heavy duty construction)

But, have Y'all ever thought of this: how much extra trouble and gear weight do you have just trying to guarantee that your down stays dry? Dry bags and stuff sack liners and bigger tarps and such? I just don't worry about that sort of thing near as much with my Climashield UQ or Polarguard bag, though I do take reasonable care to keep them dry. Point? Just that all of that might slightly reduce the weight advantage of down, though not so much the volume advantage.

Last edited by BillyBob58; 01-23-2012 at 22:54.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Romans 8:18,21-22

Canon or Nikon? We all have our own biases and sleep differently so we'll never find a clear winner.

My only reason for going with synthetic in the end was H2O. If it rained (as it often does on this coast) the last thing I wanted to worry about was if I was going to be lying awake, shaking all night long in a damp bag, under a leaky tarp, on soaked ground. I've been around others who experienced that and have known grown men who cried while in the throws of hypothermia. Not something I ever want to go through...

It's also another reason I've converted to hammocks, to get off the wet ground and be able to set up in under a minute.

Oh, and Canon of course.

I can't buy something without first considering whether I could just make it myself instead. How'd I get so screwed up?