I would take Osi and Snee over Merriman, and possibly Osi over Merriman, but that is a debate, but never Snee over Merriman. Snee is a great player but I don't think I would take a very good guard over a very good rush backer any day of the week.

I think all 3 are going to be outstanding qb's within time and that each have their own good traits. While it might be too early to judge who's better at this stage in their careers, I'll go ahead and give the nod to Big Ben.

He may average less than 20 attempts a game, but that's only a reflection of the Steelers offensive philosophy. A typical Steelers first half is very balanced while the second half is run heavy. A perfect example was the Denver game. But don't get twisted, Ben can sling the rock. In his rookie year he was 2nd in the league in yards per attempt (second to that crazy Peyton Manning guy) and last season he was first. Quality over quantity. And maybe the media and us Steeler fans do overhype the guy. In fact I know we do. (You cant really blame us. O'Donnell, Tomczak, Graham, Stewart are just a few QB's who, uh, weren't exactly gamebreakers) But maybe some of that hype is derserving. But its going to be interesting watching all 3 in the prime of their careers.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

The Steelers dominated every team in the playoffs except Seattle last year. And they won against Seattle because Seattle was only dominatnt in the middle of the field rather than the red zone.

If any QB would look good with the Steelers, then why did they look horrible with Tommy Maddox in there and average with Charlie Batch. They are a completely different team with Ben in there.

The Giants have a very similar team to the Steelers offensively yet Ben has had better stats than Eli as far as efficiency goes (Yards are way overrated).

The Giants homers are a real embarrassment to real Giants and football fans if they think Merriman is no good now. Imagine if Merriman was lined up at LB with that great defensive line. The Giants would have had their best defense since the 80's and early 90's. The Giant homers just can't accept that their team got fleeced on the Manning deal.

Eli's refusing to go to San Diego shows what a lousy talent evaluator Daddy Manning is. If I was a QB I would love to go to a team with the best RB in football (sorry it's not Tikki Giant homers) and a city that may have the best weather in the country. And a city that doesn't have the media presence that New York has.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

The Steelers dominated every team in the playoffs except Seattle last year. And they won against Seattle because Seattle was only dominatnt in the middle of the field rather than the red zone.

If any QB would look good with the Steelers, then why did they look horrible with Tommy Maddox in there and average with Charlie Batch. They are a completely different team with Ben in there.

The Giants have a very similar team to the Steelers offensively yet Ben has had better stats than Eli as far as efficiency goes (Yards are way overrated).

The Giants homers are a real embarrassment to real Giants and football fans if they think Merriman is no good now. Imagine if Merriman was lined up at LB with that great defensive line. The Giants would have had their best defense since the 80's and early 90's. The Giant homers just can't accept that their team got fleeced on the Manning deal.

Eli's refusing to go to San Diego shows what a lousy talent evaluator Daddy Manning is. If I was a QB I would love to go to a team with the best RB in football (sorry it's not Tikki Giant homers) and a city that may have the best weather in the country. And a city that doesn't have the media presence that New York has.

It doesn't matter, because if Ben is a great as you think he is and the Giants took him instead of Manning, we would have had no shot at Merriman because we wouldn't have picked 12th. I'm not a fan of Merriman and it not because of how he was taken, I just think he is overrated. I have always said Ware is the better player and if you think Merriman would be as good outside of a 3-4 defense, then you are the crazy one.

Giants fans are such homers. Look at the facts.
Ben has a winning % that is out of this world, something like 23-5. Has 2 afc championship visits and a Superbowl.
Eli has ? until Eli can take his team deep in the playoffs and not put on that crybaby face in games, he isn't even near the same class as Ben. It'sd called leadership, Eli hasn't done what Ben has. As for Rivers, I thought this kid was going to be the best in the draft. He still could be, but needs to show what he can do this year. Losman, is just in a situation in Buffalo that right now, nobody could even look good.

Giants fans are such homers. Look at the facts.
Ben has a winning % that is out of this world, something like 23-5. Has 2 afc championship visits and a Superbowl.
Eli has ? until Eli can take his team deep in the playoffs and not put on that crybaby face in games, he isn't even near the same class as Ben. It'sd called leadership, Eli hasn't done what Ben has. As for Rivers, I thought this kid was going to be the best in the draft. He still could be, but needs to show what he can do this year. Losman, is just in a situation in Buffalo that right now, nobody could even look good.

I always thought Rivers was overrated. Another great college QB who won't be a great pro QB. Didn't like his sidearm throwing motion.

Losman was suppose to have the most raw talent athletism of any QB of the 2004 draft. He just seem to have a little too much Ryan Leaf in him that turned scouts (and teammates) off.

but there is nothing to dislike about Eli and his attitude. like him saying that he would not play for certains teams before he had even taken a snap in the NFL, IMO no one is that damn good and i think he needed to just shut the hell up and quit acting like you are a God and thank God for giving you a gift that will allow you to have a great life. if anyone has the wrong attitude and says the wrong things then it's Eli.

__________________Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but With God ALL things are possible

but there is nothing to dislike about Eli and his attitude. like him saying that he would not play for certains teams before he had even taken a snap in the NFL, IMO no one is that damn good and i think he needed to just shut the hell up and quit acting like you are a God and thank God for giving you a gift that will allow you to have a great life. if anyone has the wrong attitude and says the wrong things then it's Eli.

San Diego is a terribly backwards run orginization. I'm suprised they got Cromartie into camp on time. Very cheap there. Did they sign one FA this offseson? While it was a BS move on Eli's part, I really can't blame him. If it wasn't for the absolutely beautiful weather, would anyone want to play in San Diego? In all honesty, I don't think San Diego wanted Eli anyway. They didn't want to pay #1 overall money which is why they made the trade. Then when Rivers and his agent said they wanted #1 money and lengthy holdout ensued.

I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

The reasons I don't like him probably can't be discussed on this forum because of the rules. However I can say that one reason is because of his history on blaming the few losses he has on injury. I can't stand that. I wanna put my hand through the TV when I see a CB come up limping because he gave up a big play. That is a big pet peeve of mine.

Me not liking him for personal reasons has nothing to do with me not recognizing him. I have said he is better than Manning now. Its not like Giants fans are the only ones saying these things about how he is in an ideal situation. This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

People get on Eli for the interceptions, but Ben actually throws more INTs per pass attempt. Then again he also throws more TDs per pass attempt. Should be a fun year. A lot of question will be answered for the both of them.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

Manning would not have been able to lead the Steelers offense. Look at him when he came in the last 6 games of his rookie year. He was incredibly inaccurate and lo0oked lost in the offense.

And I don't know how you could say Rivers would have done better. That is just speculation. No one has even seen him play any real amount of time so saying he would have been better than Ben is just a dumb guess.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.

Does Palmer play defense?

Quote:

Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.

That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?

Quote:

Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

Never said he played well in the Superbowl.

Quote:

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.

Does Palmer play defense?

Quote:

Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.

That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?

Quote:

Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

Never said he played well in the Superbowl.

Quote:

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.

Does Palmer play defense?

Quote:

Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.

That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?

Quote:

Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

Never said he played well in the Superbowl.

Quote:

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

I think he will. The no huddle offense got a tryout run in the preseason game. Ben looked very good in it even with all of the pressure they were getting on him with that great defensive line. Hopefully we'll see more of it this week against Phily.

Its not going to be something they run alot. I hope they do it once or twice a game to catch the defense off guard and keep them from subbing players. If they do it anymore than that it won't work aswell.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.

Does Palmer play defense?

Quote:

Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.

That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?

Quote:

Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

Never said he played well in the Superbowl.

Quote:

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

15-1 was said to be a fluke last offseason

He just said the superbowl was a fluke.

That argument concerns more than just Ben.

Well he is wrong then. The Superbowl wasn't a fluke. What other team could win the Superbowl with their QB having a day like he did.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.

Does Palmer play defense?

Quote:

Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.

That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?

Quote:

Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

Never said he played well in the Superbowl.

Quote:

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

15-1 was said to be a fluke last offseason

He just said the superbowl was a fluke.

That argument concerns more than just Ben.

Well he is wrong then. The Superbowl wasn't a fluke. What other team could win the Superbowl with their QB having a day like he did.

Of course Ben scored a touchdown that doesn't show in his stats. Something more than what Eli did in his playoff performance last year.

Of course Ben's touchdown shows in the stats. Rushing pops up in the bos score. Even with that touchdown, it was a pathetic showing. Eli was pathetic as well. The difference was Eli's team was also pathetic.

I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

The reasons I don't like him probably can't be discussed on this forum because of the rules. However I can say that one reason is because of his history on blaming the few losses he has on injury. I can't stand that. I wanna put my hand through the TV when I see a CB come up limping because he gave up a big play. That is a big pet peeve of mine.

Me not liking him for personal reasons has nothing to do with me not recognizing him. I have said he is better than Manning now. Its not like Giants fans are the only ones saying these things about how he is in an ideal situation. This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

People get on Eli for the interceptions, but Ben actually throws more INTs per pass attempt. Then again he also throws more TDs per pass attempt. Should be a fun year. A lot of question will be answered for the both of them.

The point of football is too win championships, not to see what yards the QB gets. This is the fantasy football mentality.

I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

The reasons I don't like him probably can't be discussed on this forum because of the rules. However I can say that one reason is because of his history on blaming the few losses he has on injury. I can't stand that. I wanna put my hand through the TV when I see a CB come up limping because he gave up a big play. That is a big pet peeve of mine.

Me not liking him for personal reasons has nothing to do with me not recognizing him. I have said he is better than Manning now. Its not like Giants fans are the only ones saying these things about how he is in an ideal situation. This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

People get on Eli for the interceptions, but Ben actually throws more INTs per pass attempt. Then again he also throws more TDs per pass attempt. Should be a fun year. A lot of question will be answered for the both of them.

The point of football is too win championships, not to see what yards the QB gets. This is the fantasy football mentality.

Obviously that point of football is to win championships. I don't see anyone arguing who is better the Giants or Steelers. The Steelers are better. That is clear. What isn't so clear is which QB is better. Phil Simms has more rings than Dan Marino, but you would have a hard time finding someone who said Simms was better.

Simms and Marino, really have no place in this discussion. Simms has 2 rings and Marino, is just the greatest of all time. The point is, Eli hasn't done anything to warrant him as a qb in the same class as Big Ben. Plain and simple, Ben has a ring and alot better winning percentage. Just because he had a bad game in the superbowl, doesn't take away what he has done. He still scored a touchdown in the game, and if you watched the other playoff games, you cannot deny what kind of leadership this guy has. As for eli, he might want to actually show up when it comes time for the playoffs. Then again, his bro peyton doesn't know what that means either.

Simms and Marino, really have no place in this discussion. Simms has 2 rings and Marino, is just the greatest of all time. The point is, Eli hasn't done anything to warrant him as a qb in the same class as Big Ben. Plain and simple, Ben has a ring and alot better winning percentage. Just because he had a bad game in the superbowl, doesn't take away what he has done. He still scored a touchdown in the game, and if you watched the other playoff games, you cannot deny what kind of leadership this guy has. As for eli, he might want to actually show up when it comes time for the playoffs. Then again, his bro peyton doesn't know what that means either.

Ben did play phenominal in the playoffs leading up to the Superbowl. It was great coaching too. Teams were waiting for the run like the Steelers always do and then they came out passing. Got a lead and then ran the ball down their face. However the year before Roethlisberger was awful in the playoffs and he was awful in the Superbowl too. So I wouldn't tout him as a big game QB quite yet.

Simms and Marino might have been bad examples but you get the point. I could have used Dilfer and McNabb to bring up the same point but those two were the first to pop in my head. We will see this year. Until the Steelers open up their offense more and let Ben do more things like most NFL QBs are expected to do, he will always be viewed as more of a caretaker than a great QB.

No point in dicussioning this now, wait until both careers are over..It's the logical approach to this debate, and who knows Losemen can pass everyone shutting everyone up. You never know, arguing like kids and calling each other names isn't going to solve anything. That's the problem when fans from different teams are all on one forum, it's impossible to actually get stuff to tlak about about without someone taking offense to some comment.