NYMPH wrote: I also loathe it when we cannot find a consistent rhythm. Everyone has different speeds. But when you suddenly ask me to hold a pose where I'm practically levitating, oh gr. Or the 'constant clickers' who don't let a model fully pose, they just keep snapping away.

This was an interesting quote from the other thread on directing (I created a new thread as it wasn't exactly on topic).

I've noticed that very experienced models seem to want to move through poses very quickly. As I shoot relatively few frames per shoot (20-70 photos usually although sometimes as few as 5 clicks of the shutter for the whole shoot) I like to make sure every photo is just so before clicking.

So I'm wondering if models find this kind of pace excruciating?

I've seen a few photographers who have the model basically dancing in front of the camera while they "machine-gun" shoot.
I don't think I could work that way, but would I have a better shoot if I burned frames letting the model get into a "rhythm"?

intense_puppy wrote: I've noticed that very experienced models seem to want to move through poses very quickly.

Not sure how you define quickly, but that's not been my experience.
More experienced models know when to hold and when to change-up. Basically if the photographer is 'fiddling' with the camera; hold. If he's just static, change-up.
Then change-up after 1-2 shutter releases. Very minor change after 1. More so after 2, etc.
So, it's a lot about the photographer's body communication that a good model can effortlessly read.

intense_puppy wrote: Would I have a better shoot if I burned frames letting the model get into a "rhythm"?

Try it and see!

I find that most experienced models tend to pose, wait... pose wait... until the photographer takes a shot. Trying to "direct" them into a "better" pose is only about 50% successful - sometimes they will get it and do something better; other times it will fall apart completely. The only thing to do then is to say "OK" and move on to the next pose. Either way, I always take a shot as not doing so tends to break the flow and can cause the model (especially if she's inexperienced) to lose confidence.

Sometimes, if a model is tending to hit poses which I find too static and predictable, I will ask her to "move freely and continuously" and I'll just hit the shutter when I feel something worthwhile is happening/about to happen. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't, but almost always it leads to the model posing less rigidly which, for fashion anyway, is generally a good thing.

I find that most experienced models tend to pose, wait... pose wait... until the photographer takes a shot. Trying to "direct" them into a "better" pose is only about 50% successful - sometimes they will get it and do something better; other times it will fall apart completely. Then the only thing to do then is to say "OK" and move on to the next pose. Either way, I always take a shot as not doing so tends to break the flow and can cause the model (especially if she's inexperienced) to lose confidence.

Sometimes, if a model is tending to hit poses which I find too static and predictable, I will ask her to "move freely and continuously" and I'll just hit the shutter when I feel something worthwhile is happening/about to happen. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't, but almost always it leads to the model posing less rigidly which, for fashion anyway, is generally a good thing.

"Body communication" meaning, the photographer is fiddling with the camera, trying to get the shot or he/she's doing nothing staring blankly at the llama waiting for her/him to move. Or whatever. It's a communicative process. Experienced llamas are better at reading the 'communication' than less experienced llamas generally. Body communication.

stefano is right on this though. It's hard to keep your confidence up as a model when you're doing poses for a while, and the photographer is not taking any pictures.

If you plan on doing that, I highly recommend you reassure your model in some way... Like "you're doing great, keep moving, i'm waiting for the perfect moment and you're so close!" or something like that. Unless it's utter crap and there's no way what she's doing is evolving in a great shot, then just say "you know what, I think we should try something else!"

Anna Adrielle wrote: It's hard to keep your confidence up as a model when you're doing poses for a while, and the photographer is not taking any pictures.

Definitely.

This is one of the things I often talk about in my tuition sessions - keeping the shoot going.

Ideally, it shouldn't be necessary to compromise; Whatever way you prefer to work should be OK with models as long as you get results.

However, most models have been brought up on a diet of ANTM and other media representations of "the photo shoot", complete with pounding rock music, rapidly firing strobes and a photographer yelling "Yeah baby, yeah....!!!" after every shot, so it's not surprising that they often perform better if you play along and provide some semblance of this fantasy. It seems silly, but I can assure you, it works!

Without getting overly lyrical, I think of a model shoot as a form of dancing. Doesn't work if the model is dancing gangnam style and the photographer is slow dancing. Whatever they do, they have to do it together. So the pace will vary depending on what you're trying for and on the relationship of the two people, as well as their individual rhythms.

For pinup, I'm likely to go "something else"/click, "something else"/click or just ask the model to change up as she hears the camera click. It's not uncommon to get 75 to 100 frames an hour doing that with an experienced model that works that way. They're not all going to be good, but most of them will be.

For fine art, I'm more likely to set a mood either by lighting or by giving the model an "endowment" to act out and once again, press the shutter when I see her doing something interesting.

Rarely, whether for a specific picture I see in my mind and am trying to create, or if the model is not very experienced, I will "micro-pose" the shot, but I much prefer to capture a part of the model's individual personality whenever possible.

Yes, I think rhythm is super important. And when working with experienced photographers, I tend to find it very quickly. It definitely depends on genre, mood, etc. If we have all day, and we're wandering through the wilderness, I might take my time to contort and shape myself around this particular rock or tree, and it might take me five minutes to find my footing and create the desired shape. But when we're shooting high key in a studio, I love it when the photographer can just snap, snap and catch me at the most dynamic, energetic poses.

I worked with a traveling photographer from Italy who barely spoke any english, but he said that he thought we could create a good, "photo-dialog", and we did! It was magic. Sometimes words aren't entirely necessary, it's a magical, artistic, sixth sense kinda thing.

Oh goodness. That one will almost always make me cringe, and put me one step closer to 'grin and bare it' mode. But I agree, some encouragement really does help. It lets me know when I've found something good that works for both of us. If a photographer tells me they really like something, then I'll play with variations on that pose and make sure we have a variety of shots to choose from. Otherwise I might change position more quickly.

first, i'm not concerned with posing. i tend to communicate toward emotional direction and then shoot, and continue to shoot directing small changes until i think we've found it. then it's on to the next emotion with input and suggestions, with more communication to help bring it out. if something doesn't work we move on. what that does is creates a rhythm and pace that most i've worked with find comfortable as there is equal input and control. not too fast, not too slow, whatever it takes to find and capture the moment.

A good model can feel the rhythm- plus they can take direction quite well. I had a model who would change poses when she heard the camera register, but I simply told her to hold the pose until I said I wanted a change. Its a communication matter is all.

Anna Adrielle wrote: stefano is right on this though. It's hard to keep your confidence up as a model when you're doing poses for a while, and the photographer is not taking any pictures.

If you plan on doing that, I highly recommend you reassure your model in some way... Like "you're doing great, keep moving, i'm waiting for the perfect moment and you're so close!" or something like that. Unless it's utter crap and there's no way what she's doing is evolving in a great shot, then just say "you know what, I think we should try something else!"

I think this goes for any shoot with a human subject. It's best to keep the pace up.
I slow it a bit if I'm not seeing what I want. But I keep shooting.
Otherwise the subject can get frustrated..which is not a good thing..

As long as it's communicated to me before we start, I can pick up rhythm very quickly.

i.e.
"I'm very methodical in my shots and will only take it if it's just right." ... tells me I need to take it slow, wait for the camera snap, and communicate with the photographer on if my hand needs to be shifted or a toe pointed another direction.

... and all the things in between to ...

"I'm going to keep shooting, and you just move, move, move." ... which tells me I'll keep doing what I do and the photographer will worry of the rest.

I have qualms with both extremes, but as long as I know what I'm working with, I can work with it. I've had amazing shots come of both slow and fast and all the in betweens.

The only thing I would stress is... communicate with your model. Talk to him/her. It helps me extremely to be spoken to and told what's going on so I can get a faster feel for the shoot. It's overall more comforting too.

IDiivil wrote: As long as it's communicated to me before we start, I can pick up rhythm very quickly.

i.e.
"I'm very methodical in my shots and will only take it if it's just right." ... tells me I need to take it slow, wait for the camera snap, and communicate with the photographer on if my hand needs to be shifted or a toe pointed another direction.

... and all the things in between to ...

"I'm going to keep shooting, and you just move, move, move." ... which tells me I'll keep doing what I do and the photographer will worry of the rest.

I have qualms with both extremes, but as long as I know what I'm working with, I can work with it. I've had amazing shots come of both slow and fast and all the in betweens.

The only thing I would stress is... communicate with your model. Talk to him/her. It helps me extremely to be spoken to and told what's going on so I can get a faster feel for the shoot. It's overall more comforting too.

IDiivil wrote: As long as it's communicated to me before we start, I can pick up rhythm very quickly.

i.e.
"I'm very methodical in my shots and will only take it if it's just right." ... tells me I need to take it slow, wait for the camera snap, and communicate with the photographer on if my hand needs to be shifted or a toe pointed another direction.

... and all the things in between to ...

"I'm going to keep shooting, and you just move, move, move." ... which tells me I'll keep doing what I do and the photographer will worry of the rest.

I have qualms with both extremes, but as long as I know what I'm working with, I can work with it. I've had amazing shots come of both slow and fast and all the in betweens.

The only thing I would stress is... communicate with your model. Talk to him/her. It helps me extremely to be spoken to and told what's going on so I can get a faster feel for the shoot. It's overall more comforting too.

Perfect!

I tend to over-communicate, intentionally. I'll give the model verbal cues as to what I'm doing as sometimes the rhythm varies depending on how quickly I get a shot "just right."

The technique I use I like to refer to as "Flow." I communicate about posing and still take lots of images. I usually plan the shoot so the llama really knows what we are going for and then she can flow through poses and expressions. This is the result of sending my llama posing and expression guide with the shoot plan. I have to send one tonight.

If the llama can get rhythmn and the photographer can communicate enthusiasm the llama's ambition to have great shots take of her soars.

I try to communicate with the model as much as possible, and when the shooting starts I try to shoot as quickly as possible... because my models are usually quite cold and uncomfortable. I spend more time setting up the shot, and discussing the pose with the model, than actually shooting. This of course is unique to shooting nudes in below freezing temperatures; it’s all about having a predetermined pose ready to go. 10-15 shots over two or three minutes and it's time to toss the model her blancket and boots so she doesn't turn blue.

I’m sure I would approach a studio shoot in a more relaxed, free-flowing manner. I like the idea of capturing split second expressions and movement, but communication would still be key.

I can hold most poses for at least a few minutes. If there is one I cannot I usually know that going into it and will let the photographer know. Generally I can fall out of a pose for a moment to let my muscles take a break and then snap right back to it. I have actually walked completely out of a pose to check my camera when self shooting and gone back to exactly the same pose when I returned for the next shot.

Aside from that I am pretty good about listening for that little click. I generally work around the photographer's flow as well. If they are clicking a lot, I flow from one pose to another every several clicks but each movement is slow. If they are clicking less I will hold the pose for a few clicks, then change it. Obviously those are generalizations, each photographer is different and my posing methods are based on how fast they shoot, what our goal is (are we going for one specific shot or just moving along on a general theme?), what type of camera and lighting we are using, how much direction they are giving, and so on. If there is music that can also affect things to a degree.

This is one of the things I often talk about in my tuition sessions - keeping the shoot going.

Ideally, it shouldn't be necessary to compromise; Whatever way you prefer to work should be OK with models as long as you get results.

However, most models have been brought up on a diet of ANTM and other media representations of "the photo shoot", complete with pounding rock music, rapidly firing strobes and a photographer yelling "Yeah baby, yeah....!!!" after every shot, so it's not surprising that they often perform better if you play along and provide some semblance of this fantasy. It seems silly, but I can assure you, it works!

It's not just ANTM though. communication is important, in any situation. either tell sommeone before, or communicate it during the shoot. I think photographers tend to forget that we see very little of the photographer's face during the shoot, most of it is covered by a camera. We don't have your expression to go on if it's good or bad, you've got to give us something . That doesn't mean constantly cheering the model on, just communicate in some way.

For me the "pace" depends a lot on the intention of the shoot. Sometimes it's a "show up with a pile of clothes and let's just have fun" shoot where we just settle into a casual cadence and I'll direct when I'm seeing something really interesting that isn't quite as good as I think it can get. Other times we have a specific vision of the shot we're going for and it's all about tweaking the pose and lighting to get it perfect and then we just click off a few almost identical shots.

I've also found that almost every model is a bit different and it doesn't always depend on their skill and experience. For example, one of my favorite models to work with has a really weird cadence and I find myself always catching her in between poses. We still get amazing images, but I also end up with a good number of really bad in between poses shots.

Yet the last two days pushed this issue forward.
The first day was ( first picture new nude* a relatively inexperienced girl.
I explained that I prefer to shoot fast, and almost anything.

Why?
I am looking for the unexpected not the expected.
I also said pictures that often are the strongest are ones where a shadow crosses the face, an accident with light, a moment where things are found.

I cannot get that if I stop to "shoot " each pose.

The series start from poses. I can suggest them, or it's when I find them while shooting I tell the model that looks great . Then we restart from that point, yet let it flow hoping for that accident.

Then I shot my first video yesterday.

That is where you pose but have to let it go. Directing video is even more challenging than stills. You have to suggest poses find them, and do all of this in real time. IF you stop what is happening in film you kill it.

In photography stills you have to have all in the right gear, between all the elements, and then the marriage will produce the best pictures.

Each mix though is unique, and dependent on how people are feeling at that moment.

At each sub-location I adjust the camera and lighting settings, then when those are set, I just shoot with the models flow...I let her set the pace starting with a very general idea of the concept. Very little direction, except some hand signals.

I will give a general idea, (and correct hair and wardrobe, hands and feet), but when the model is "flowing" ("throwing poses") I shoot, and when she hit's a pose I REALLY like, I say "Hold That!" (and shoot about 3 shots very quickly) and "good" to direct her to move on. Not a lot of words are spoken, it's a "natural" flow.

I much prefer the model to "throw" poses that are natural that are comfortable to her, than to direct her into the "grin-and-bear-it" mode (as someone called it!). So, unless there are wardrobe, hand/feet, hair, etc...issues to "correct"...the only words are "hold that" and "good". I'll throw an occasional hand signal to adjust the tilt of her head or twist of her body.

NYMPH wrote: Oh goodness. That one will almost always make me cringe, and put me one step closer to 'grin and bare it' mode. But I agree, some encouragement really does help. It lets me know when I've found something good that works for both of us. If a photographer tells me they really like something, then I'll play with variations on that pose and make sure we have a variety of shots to choose from. Otherwise I might change position more quickly.

I love it when a model does this. Usually I take my tempo from the model's posing, not snapping the shutter to set her tempo. It's great to work with models who hear the shutter, and change poses. Occasionally, I'll get the opportunity to say, "oops, I screwed up..go back to that last one!"

Oh goodness. That one will almost always make me cringe, and put me one step closer to 'grin and bare it' mode. But I agree, some encouragement really does help. It lets me know when I've found something good that works for both of us. If a photographer tells me they really like something, then I'll play with variations on that pose and make sure we have a variety of shots to choose from. Otherwise I might change position more quickly.

Totally agree with you. I also show the model my camera screen when giving direction, they can immediately see how i'm composing and how i want to direct them. I think this works as a good communication tool too.

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: However, most models have been brought up on a diet of ANTM and other media representations of "the photo shoot", complete with pounding rock music, rapidly firing strobes and a photographer yelling "Yeah baby, yeah....!!!" after every shot, so it's not surprising that they often perform better if you play along and provide some semblance of this fantasy. It seems silly, but I can assure you, it works!

This is so spot on. Usually when I work with a fairly new model they're emulating some shoot from a cliche movie or an episode of ANTM and they think that's how a shoot is supposed to progress.

I don't shoot an entire shoot that way either. Though I usually will if the shot requires some action feel (a model running on the beach or in the water for instance). But often I just convey to the model that we're going to hold the poses a bit longer like if they were modeling for a painting class (well, not THAT long) and we're not going to do the Austin Powers style of shooting today.

But I like your comment about snapping the shutter just as a form of positive reinforcement, regardless of whether you have the shot just right.

Neil Snape wrote: I explained that I prefer to shoot fast, and almost anything.

Why?
I am looking for the unexpected not the expected.
I also said pictures that often are the strongest are ones where a shadow crosses the face, an accident with light, a moment where things are found.

I cannot get that if I stop to "shoot " each pose.

Very interesting responses here...and varying styles.

I have to admit when I shoot that way I feel a combination of things.

1) I often feel like I'm spraying and praying and that feels like "cheating" to me. I don't really have control over the scene and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. I also feel like I'm the cliche fashion photographer when I shoot like that and I have a tough time getting past my own cynicism.

2) I usually rent the camera equipment for a job so I'm not always fully familiar or comfortable with the equipment and that style of shooting is much harder to achieve proper focus. It also doesn't help that I center focus and recompose...a terrible way to shoot fast action.

Now, #2 is completely my own incompetence I realize.

But you've definitely given me a new way to look at it...and some skills to work on for sure.

intense_puppy wrote: I've seen a few photographers who have the model basically dancing in front of the camera while they "machine-gun" shoot.

I've heard this called "spray and pray" and I think in this case the model is doing all the work, especially if the photographer stands in exactly the same position the whole time and just click click clicks and doesn't give any direction or change angles, etc. He's just clicking from the same spot over and over and hoping he gets a decent shot.

Not sure how you define quickly, but that's not been my experience.
More experienced models know when to hold and when to change-up. Basically if the photographer is 'fiddling' with the camera; hold. If he's just static, change-up.
Then change-up after 1-2 shutter releases. Very minor change after 1. More so after 2, etc.
So, it's a lot about the photographer's body communication that a good model can effortlessly read.

This is what I like to do. I get into a pose and every 2-3 clicks I do a few slight variations and listen to suggestions (suck it in, chin up a bit, can you lean towards the wall a bit more, look at your feet) and then when he stops to look at the last few images or takes the camera away from his face and cocks his head at me or something like that, I change.

When I encounter the machine gun technique I just go from one pose to another like I would if I was practicing in a mirror.

stefano is right on this though. It's hard to keep your confidence up as a model when you're doing poses for a while, and the photographer is not taking any pictures.

If you plan on doing that, I highly recommend you reassure your model in some way... Like "you're doing great, keep moving, i'm waiting for the perfect moment and you're so close!" or something like that. Unless it's utter crap and there's no way what she's doing is evolving in a great shot, then just say "you know what, I think we should try something else!"

THIS THIS THIS

If you see that she has almost nailed a pose help her out a bit. It might feel goofy but if she is really struggling you can do the pose you want yourself. It also lightens the mood to see the photographer demonstrating the pose. One photographer I worked with when I first started would also lighten the mood by directing me into a silly pose or doing something to make me laugh. Once I had my little giggle my creativity and energy would come back and we'd immediately be on a roll again.