Triple Crown wins it IMHO...but there is a very solid Trout argument. If I had to vote, I'd give it to Cabrera 'cause his team is in the postseason. But it really is a tie. No player has EVER posted those Trout numbers. Rook or otherwise.

Also lost in this is that this is the 1st reasonable chance I or pretty much any of us have ever seen at a Triple Crown. And the irony is that Trout is really the only guy that can break it (tho Hamilton could knock a few, but I would think he's resting this series).

Why does the Tigers playing in the central division have anything to do with who is the MVP?LAA: 88-71DET: 86-73

Voting for Cabrera is basically saying that defense and baserunning are irrelevant. And honestly, the triple crown is a neat historic achivement, but hardly a measure of who's the best player in baseball. Trout in a landslide.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

My vote would go to Trout, without even thinking about it. He has clearly been the superior player overall. The offensive stats alone warrant Trout to me, and that's not even thinking about the fact that he is elite in center field and on the basepaths, two areas where Miggy is below average.

The whole "Detroit made the playoffs, and the Angels didn't" argument to me is nonsense. The Angels have the better record, and did so without playing 19 games against the Royals, Twins, Indians, and White Sox. If the Angels were in the AL Central, they'd have at least 94-95 wins and would have cruised to a division title.

Bottom line, Trout is the Most Valuable Player in the AL. The things he does at the top of the lineup, on the bases, in center field are a huge part of the game. Cabrera has had an amazing season offensively, clearly, and has obviously been very valuable to Detroit given the woes this year of everyone in their lineup not named Austin Jackson or Prince Fielder. But Trout to me has easily been the most vaulable.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Trout. Better all around numbers, but its his defense that tips it in his favor IMO.

I have never bought into the team has to make the playoffs argument so you can get the MVP. Just because your team didnt make the playoffs, doesn't make you any less valuable. You can still have a huge impact on your teams win total. I mean Jesus Christ, take Alex Rodriguez's numbers off the 2002 Texas Rangers, that has to drop their win total significantly. Possibly from middle of the pack to the bottom. Yet he loses to Miguel Tejada, who's team made the playoffs but whose numbers were not even close to A-roid's.

I think this is one of the most interesting MVP races in recent memory. Here you literally have the 'old-school stats' (RBI/HR/AVG) versus the 'new school stats' (WAR/UZR/OPS+). One a perennial MVP candidate playing on a division winning team, the other a fresh rookie playing on a .500 team.

If this were 1997, Miggy would be the slam dunk pick and no one would think twice. But with teh advent of advanced metrics and the "re-appreciation" of well-rounded players coming back into vogue, Mike Trout is getting the lion share of support.

I have no problem with whomever wins. Both are worthy picks. It's a shame the MLB can't rig the votes to make it a tie.

Last edited by Toxicadam on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Look, vote for whomever the hell you want, but good holy Christ, this is the first Triple Crown winner most of us on this board have ever seen. And many of us are old. Stats guys are acting like it's as easy as knockin 3 doubles in a game.

And Pup is correct, I know RBI's apparently don't count now, but all of the sudden steals do?

And, by the way, people will use what fits the argument, cause if the Angels made the playoffs and the Tigers didn't.....

The essay on "Why Home Runs hurt your team" has got to be right around the corner.

This just boils down to how you feel about the game. Do you just focus on hitting or the entire aspects of the game? As long as we're talking about reverential accomplishments such as the Triple Crown, it's worth pointing out that Trout is only the 3rd player to ever go 30/48 and he has a chance at 30/50. More than 4x as many guys have had a Triple Crown as have had a 30/50 so which is more impressive? The Triple Crown just because some sports writer ripped off the catchy name from horse racing 100 years ago? Gimme a break.

30/48. 2nd in OPS. 1st in steals. Best defensive player in the game at the hardest position. A WAR that is nearly 4.0 wins better than Cabrera (10.7 to 6.8 is just silly) Being a rookie doesn't even matter.

Trout is the better player. Who wins? You're guess is as good as mine.

Trout is a plus defender at a premium defensive position. Cabrera is a below-average defender at 3B. In addition to his SB, Trout takes more extra bases (1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home etc) than Cabrera is able to. If Trout was hitting 3rd or 4th in the Angels lineup, he'd be "better" at driving in runs.

Again, the triple crown is a really cool historical achivement. But it doesn't measure defense, doubles, triples, runs, walks or stolen bases. That's an awfully significant part of the game right there. It's a big deal and an impressive feat, but that alone does not an MVP make.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Pup is probably the youngest crotchety old geezer I've ever run across (and that's why I love the guy). And of course he pulled out stats to support his point. Because as much as he professes to dislike stats, it's impossible to make ANY baseball argument without them. He just likes different stats than some other people. You know, the inferior, less enlightening ones.

but he knows that. Pup absolutely knows that RBIs, moreso than many other stats, are less meaningful and WHY they are. But he stand by that kind of thing for some reasons I can't really understand myself.

And, no matter how many times he says something awesome like "clogging the basepaths" he will never convince me that he doesn't actually get this stuff and secretly agree. Because he will never convince me that he's a moron, no matter how hard he tries.

gotribe31 wrote:

pup wrote:Defense...christ.

Better all around player? Miggy is the better hitter, better power, better at driving in runs. Almost as good at scoring runs. Trout is faster. Yippee.

Trout is a plus defender at a premium defensive position. Cabrera is a below-average defender at 3B. In addition to his SB, Trout takes more extra bases (1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home etc) than Cabrera is able to. If Trout was hitting 3rd or 4th in the Angels lineup, he'd be "better" at driving in runs.

Again, the triple crown is a really cool historical achivement. But it doesn't measure defense, doubles, triples, runs, walks or stolen bases. That's an awfully significant part of the game right there. It's a big deal and an impressive feat, but that alone does not an MVP make.

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.

C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.

C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.

Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.

C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.

Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.

Do you think Mother gets that you were being facetious yet?

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.

C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.

Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.

Luckily he doesn't play in the AL East, who knows what kind of numbers he'd put up? Granted it's 48-50 less AB's vs the rest of the AL but the guys been locked in against nearly everyone this season.

Don't know who should be MVP, it's too close to call but don't discount Cabrera's numbers based on the division he plays in.

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.

C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.

Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.

Do you think Mother gets that you were being facetious yet?

It is my belief that he was being only half facetious. Stradling the fence, as it were, while deciding on which side to jump down.

You know how Peek is, no strong opinions, afraid to commit to anything.

I'd like to jump down from a curb and land on your head. I'd be fully committed to that.

motherscratcher wrote:

gotribe31 wrote:

peeker643 wrote:

motherscratcher wrote:

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.

C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.

Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.

Do you think Mother gets that you were being facetious yet?

It is my belief that he was being only half facetious. Stradling the fence, as it were, while deciding on which side to jump down.

You know how Peek is, no strong opinions, afraid to commit to anything.

Of course those numbers you posted are huge, when you have smaller sample sizes that can happen, But IMO and my point is if he had 72 ab's against (which would create larger sample sizes and create less opportunities for statistical anomalies)rotataions like Oakland, Texas, and LAA his numbers would go down. Not by much, but it has definitely helps Miggy to play in our division.

Last edited by Dnthateonthepronk on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

peeker643 wrote:I'd like to jump down from a curb and land on your head. I'd be fully committed to that.

Make sure you use your good ankle

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

And for the stat-heads (Pup) - let me know what it does to Trout's slugging % and OPS if you make all those singles with steals into doubles.

And also how many more RBI he has if the Angels 8+9 reach base at the same rate as teh Tigers 1+2.

But, too be fair, we should also take into consideration how many runs Miggy saved with great defense at 3B, and how many more SB he'd have and how many singles he would have stretched into doubles if he batted leadoff.

People would rather quantify the MVP with a calculator and pie charts, than their own goddamn eyes.

That's a fucking bullshit argument. The people that are championing Trout for MVP watched Trout play a whole heaping shitload with their eyes and liked what they saw.

And yeah, a lot of stats confirm it.

It's lazy and now he's defensive about it.

I'm the King of Lazy Arguments & Defensive Responses so I recognize it when I see it.

And when you ask about guys (a lot of them) who won the award w/o making the playoffs or ask if all the 3pl Crown numbers are almost even but another guy is a GG winner and basestealer then suddenly you get the playoff argument.

Like I said, and I honestly mean it, I have no care whatsoever over who gets it. I see arguments on both sides. This could go on all day. Miggy's team is worse than Trout's but made the playoffs. Yay Miggy. And Trout's put together one of the best years in the history of the game from an all-around standpoint.

Personally, if I have one at bat that needs to produce a run to save my life, Cabrera is my guy in the box. He may well be the MVP. Very well may be. But it's not because he's the 3pl Crown Winner.

I use stats because without them this entire board wouldn't know a baseball player from a god damn dentist. You cannot have a conversation in this place without it falling into some sort of acronym love fest.

You put Trout in the 4 hole and see his RBI go up. Awesome. I will put Miggy at leadoff and see his runs go up.

Take his singles and add his sb and his slugging goes up. Awesome. Take all the at bats Prince gets with two guys on instead of one because people are afraid to pitch to Miggy. Meanwhile, Trout isn't even the most feared hitter in his own freaking lineup.

Pretty soon all the geeks will get their way and we won't vote on anything. Highest WAR wins. Pretty soon they won't even play any games, just use the stats they think you would acquire and create a box score. Can't wait.

This is another one of those times I shall ask, please tell me the stats we should be going by. Then let's stick to them. But when 10 different sites use 10 different measures to come up with 300 different stats, it isn't hard to cherry pick your favorites.

batting average is stupid, right?on base percentage is good, correct?ops good but flawed?All you saberdorks tell me stolen bases are pointless, then we pick an MVP because he has a shitload of them.

pup wrote:I use stats because without them this entire board wouldn't know a baseball player from a god damn dentist. You cannot have a conversation in this place without it falling into some sort of acronym love fest.

You put Trout in the 4 hole and see his RBI go up. Awesome. I will put Miggy at leadoff and see his runs go up.

Take his singles and add his sb and his slugging goes up. Awesome. Take all the at bats Prince gets with two guys on instead of one because people are afraid to pitch to Miggy. Meanwhile, Trout isn't even the most feared hitter in his own freaking lineup.

Pretty soon all the geeks will get their way and we won't vote on anything. Highest WAR wins. Pretty soon they won't even play any games, just use the stats they think you would acquire and create a box score. Can't wait.

This is another one of those times I shall ask, please tell me the stats we should be going by. Then let's stick to them. But when 10 different sites use 10 different measures to come up with 300 different stats, it isn't hard to cherry pick your favorites.

batting average is stupid, right?on base percentage is good, correct?ops good but flawed?All you saberdorks tell me stolen bases are pointless, then we pick an MVP because he has a shitload of them.

I'm not sure who you're directing this rant at, but I'm not using stats, I'm using my eyes. And you're making my argument for me that your stats are flawed.

You put Trout in the 4 hole and see his RBI go up. Awesome. I will put Miggy at leadoff and see his runs go up.

Exactly. I agree 100%. Which is why neither stat is a complete indicator of performance.

Here's what I know; the argument that Miggy is the MVP because his team is in the playoffs is mind-numbingly stupid. If team performance is important, fine. But Trout's team has won more games. It's not his fault the Tigers are in the AL Central

The argument that Miggy is the MVP because he wins the TC is stupid. The TC is historic and impressive and awesome, but it fails to measure a number of things which I listed in a post above. Not the least of which is defense, which is half the game.

If you thing Cabrera is more valuable this year than Trout, fine. I can see that argument. I disagree with it, but I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world. But no one here is talking about WAR but you, as far as I can tell.

Bottom line; if I could go back to April 1 and put one of the two of them on the Indians, I'd take Trout. If you'd prefer Miggy, that's fine, I'm not going to tell you that you're an idiot or anything, he's a very good player. I just prefer Trout because of his overall impact on the game.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars