last year there was some discussion about the way we should handle them in light of the seemingly scarce tickets.. and the growing popularity of online crowdsourced type fundraising.. ...the incentive to profit/gain from having tickets seemingly went up recently..

so do you think we will have em this year??

i saw some eplaya ( viewtopic.php?f=326&t=63417 ) post about them possibly being one of those legal things like a lottery/sweepstakes/contest.. that stuff is always tricky!! I recently saw some company who was running a thing like that and had to stop. when they finally thought it out *ooops!!* (i actually wonder if the poster had the same thing on their RSS feed!)

( only after Free Year was up and running did the word sweepstakes pop up and prompt the question: Is Free Day completely legal? In retrospect, this is a question that should always be fully explored before launching into a thing, but Free Day never carried a seed of doubt before. This time it did. So everyone began digging. http://www.sparkfun.com/news/1038 )

anyways

do you think we should have these raffle things these days?

perhaps someone/burning man will find a simpler solution for camps/crews/projects to raise funds ! perhaps one that doesnt need an incentive!?

Umm, trilobyte deservedly locked the original thread on this subject, because it's a bozo idea, the BS that ticket raffles as are illegal.

Someone needs to take a Law 101 class, or talk with an actual lawyer, before posting BS like this. Posting quotes from a paper written by a couple pre-doctoral students in the Journal of Public Policy & Marketing about COMMERCIAL raffles and lotteries, and putting it under the link named "FTC Federal Criminal Lottery Act", is a total misdirection. And then to link some loose rules on CHARITABLE raffles in California under the link named "Penal Code Section 320.5" is also a total misdirection. Quotes in the original post taken out of the full context of the paper on COMMERCIAL lotteries and out of the full context of the loose CA law on CHARITABLE raffles are also a total misdirection.

To boot, laws need to be specific and have enforcement actions. The California law seems to have, well, some unspecified agency may be able have a (costly) investigation to determine if the lottery is not being done for charitable purposes, and for a profit, and then pass the finding on. Yeah, right, that's going to happen for a group not looking to profit off a raffle. According to the CA rules, the organization doing the raffle doesn't even need to be registered or basically, anything.

There's absolutely no problem with camps and local regionals, that aren't organized for making profit, doing ticket or other raffles. Or doing some basic web notifications that the camp is having a raffle for something. Raffles like this are no more illegal than a school PTA raffling off Disneyland tickets. And, probably, less "illegal" than your office football pool.

The re-introduction of this locked topic in a new thread deserves to have this thread locked also. Or, better yet, deleted along with the original thread.

The real issue is not that someone can narc out some theme camp's lame raffle to the FTC or FCC, earning them a cease and desist letter, but rather bigger fish can be fried in terms of BM Org itself for broadcasting (advertising) such illegal lotteries. In the context of profiteering through illegal gambling brought on by ticket scarcity, this may indeed bring such a problem to a head.

Anyway, I've sent an email to BM Org about the matter. They can decide whether they want to open themselves to future legal sanctions from the FCC. Sure, they're not hosting the raffles, but permitting their advertisement in the JRS or on ePlaya could be considered broadcasting for illegal activities. Really, I just want to see the connection to this disease of profiting through illegal Burning Man ticket raffles ended, at least at the official level. After all, we're not allowed to discuss other illegal activities on here, no matter how "benign" they may be considered.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

BBadger wrote:The real issue is not that someone can narc out some theme camp's lame raffle to the FTC or FCC, earning them a cease and desist letter, but rather bigger fish can be fried in terms of BM Org itself for broadcasting (advertising) such illegal lotteries. In the context of profiteering through illegal gambling brought on by ticket scarcity, this may indeed bring such a problem to a head.

Anyway, I've sent an email to BM Org about the matter. They can decide whether they want to open themselves to future legal sanctions from the FCC.

lemur - it's unclear from your post if by "we" you mean whether ePlaya will have them (or allow people to post them) or whether you mean we as in you or other users should plan and organize ticket raffles.

If you mean whether ePlaya would have/allow them, then I'll repeat what I posted in another thread. We have not yet made any determinations as to if or how third parties may list or offer tickets on ePlaya for the 2013 event. That is a decision that will be made by Burning Man, not through a poll on this or any other site.

If you mean whether users should organize their own raffles, that's up to the individuals/organizations. Speaking personally, I wouldn't recommend it. Aside from legal and tax issues (which are important), in the wake of ticket scarcity I find it distasteful. Before the first sellout in 2011, it was one thing for a camp or project that had an extra ticket (through generous campmate or grant award) to offer one up at a fundraiser event to raise a couple bucks. Those who didn't care to participate in the draw could easily purchase a ticket through regular means. After that first sellout happened and tickets were no longer readily available at any time, ticket raffles changed somehow. They were no longer tickets that nobody needed (who didn't know someone that needed a ticket at some point). To me it was hoarding and profiteering. Using the internet to promote and sell even more tickets just seemed to underscore that point. Of the things camps and projects would do to raise money for their efforts, that's probably my least favorite method.

In the spirit of disclosure, I've participated in Burning Man ticket raffles in the past. In 2004-2007 I bought raffle tickets at fundraiser parties here and there for various art projects. I never won, but was okay with the outcome of all of them. In 2011-2012 I didn't participate in any raffles. Aside from what I stated above, my girlfriend and I already had tickets and didn't need them.

The other thread was locked because not only was it calling the legality into question, but it was accusing Burning Man of a crime. That's a conversation to have with either Burning Man's legal team or the appropriate authorities, not one to have on the message board. I will be pruning this thread to remove posts that attempt to do that here - please direct those questions to Burning Man (you can use the playainfo@burningman.com address and it will be routed to the responsible individual).

Like many laws - any violation of law concerning raffles would be complaint driven. There is no agency out there looking for obscure violations of law - it does happen, but is on the rare side. Like Trilo said if you believe something is amiss call the respective agency if your inclined, drop BM legal an email, they respond quickly.

Personally, I am of the school that if it is not hurting anyone, wheres the harm and I could care less. I have bought raffle tickets to win tickets in the past (with no luck) but also know some winners. I also agree with Trilo that in years past it was more tasteful when there were other options for tickets, its when people see a raffle as their only option to get a ticket that it becomes weird to me.