1. The name of the owner and/or landlord/lady of the Neely St property &

2. When the American Bakery Co. pay stub allegedly found on Oswald first came to light

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

I've read through the Education Forum posts on this through April 11, the first 12 posts, and just wanted to bounce this off you Greg. It's a most intriguing line of research and it's new to me, and quite puzzling, why there is so little data (if any) verifying LHO & Marina's occupancy of 214 West Neely.

PAINE: They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle... I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the house... By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard...LIEBELER: What did you identify the place as being?PAINE: The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.

II, p. 393:

PAINE: invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and here the date that comes to mind is April 10.

So Michael Paine is stating that he saw the backyard photos at DPD HQ on the night of the 22nd, 12-14 hours before they were officially "discovered" in the seabag in the garage. And even gives Lee an alibi for the Walker shooting.

I don't know what your take is on this testimony, but I'm hard-pressed to see Michael as in on a plan to frame the Neely address itself onto LHO, and making the gaffe of letting the cat out of the bag that backyard photos were being shown the night of the 22nd.

As a footnote, I looked into the James Jackson paystub and Cox's white boxtop that were also found on LHO after his arrest. Apparently Charles T. Walker and then Gus Rose looked through LHO's wallet once he was brought to the Homicide & Robbery Office; the wallet was eventually given to Manning Clements who itemized its contents at about 7:15 PM.

The pay stub & boxtop aren't itemized, and apparently were discovered in his pants pocket, as Bugliosi states, at about 4:10 PM. They apparently weren't in his wallet, which strikes me as strange, especially for a flimsy paper pay stub (not so much for a flimsy cardboard boxtop).

I'm not prepared to let the Paines off the hook just yet - though that may well happen as this develops further.

I read his testimony and get the impression he's trying to play the forgetful/slightly eccentric/distracted professor...

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

My guess right now is that 214 West Neely may have been a CIA safe house. Landlord Waldo George doesn't provide a consistent first name in several documents; but most striking is his allegation that someone with a duplicate key broke into the apartment several times during the Sept/Oct timeframe, that apartment having been padlocked since May.

Waldo George evidently provided the padlock, and seems to be indicating that somebody with professional burglary skills managed to create a duplicate key. I would say that that somebody was extremely interested in entering the premises- which were empty, of course. This was not a normal burglar; but somebody whose interest in the empty premises, it can be surmised, revolved around the last tenant- Oswald.

So, at about 4:10 PM on the 22nd DPD detectives Boyd & Sims search Oswald and find a James Jackson paystub & Cox's boxtop in his pants pocket. Everything that was taken out of his pockets then was forwarded to the property clerk and the relevant invoice, dated November 30, may be seen at http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/26/2658-001.gif

On December 10 Captain Fritz turned these items over to the FBI's James W. Bookhout & George H.W. Carlson (WCD 205, p. 195).

But there was indeed a second James Jackson paystub found during the search at 214 West Neely Street. We know from SA James W. Anderton's report of November 23 that landlord Waldo George had cleaned out the apartment in May after the Oswalds moved out; it had remained "vacant and padlocked"; and Mr. George believed that someone who had a key to this padlock had been going into the apartment "within the past two months"

Information like that, by the way, should have made the newspapers in any honest investigation.

Mr. George said that he looked through the apartment on the night of the 22nd for possible scraps of evidence; didn't find any & recommended that the FBI look it over.

And so at an unspecified date SA William G. Brookhart searched the premises and found another James Jackson paystub; he ended up re-interviewing Jackson on January 8th.

*

Well, what's Oswald doing with this paystub & boxtop in his pants when he was arrested? I think the likelihood is better that he didn't have them on him while at work that day; so they are an indication that he actually went back to his 1026 North Beckley rooming house after the assassination.

He claimed he changed his pants, and I happen to agree with that; he was in his room only a couple of minutes and hurriedly changed his shirt as well.So the choice is: did he put the paystub & boxtop into his pants while he changed, or were they already in the fresh pants that were sitting in the dresser drawer?

I'd have to say that they were already in the pants, and he didn't even realize they were in the back pocket; we have no information from his DPD interrogations in regard to these items; were they, as some have speculated, to be shown to a contact in the Texas Theater? Or were they, as I instead think, inconsequential errata?

For Oswald to have picked up & retained one of the paystubs at Neely Street, this tells me he's mindful of the possibility that the name James Jackson & his company, American Bakeries- this could come in handy someday so he decided to hang onto it. And he did have some possible use in mind shortly before the assassination, the last time he'd worn the pants he got arrested in.

I have little clue as to why he'd have a boxtop from Cox's; perhaps the reason he acquired one was that there was some sort of savings-redemption program offered by the store, i.e. save 5 boxtops, get a free vacuum cleaner.

But all in all, my guess is that LHO wasn't even aware he had the boxtop & paystub on his person at his arrest, and that these items are inconsequential.

So, at about 4:10 PM on the 22nd DPD detectives Boyd & Sims search Oswald and find a James Jackson paystub & Cox's boxtop in his pants pocket. Everything that was taken out of his pockets then was forwarded to the property clerk and the relevant invoice, dated November 30, may be seen at http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/26/2658-001.gif

On December 10 Captain Fritz turned these items over to the FBI's James W. Bookhout & George H.W. Carlson (WCD 205, p. 195).

But there was indeed a second James Jackson paystub found during the search at 214 West Neely Street. We know from SA James W. Anderton's report of November 23 that landlord Waldo George had cleaned out the apartment in May after the Oswalds moved out; it had remained "vacant and padlocked"; and Mr. George believed that someone who had a key to this padlock had been going into the apartment "within the past two months"

Information like that, by the way, should have made the newspapers in any honest investigation.

Mr. George said that he looked through the apartment on the night of the 22nd for possible scraps of evidence; didn't find any & recommended that the FBI look it over.

And so at an unspecified date SA William G. Brookhart searched the premises and found another James Jackson paystub; he ended up re-interviewing Jackson on January 8th.

Excellent summary, Richard.

It's the next part I have issue with (while acknowledging it is possible)

Well, what's Oswald doing with this paystub & boxtop in his pants when he was arrested? I think the likelihood is better that he didn't have them on him while at work that day; so they are an indication that he actually went back to his 1026 North Beckley rooming house after the assassination.

He claimed he changed his pants, and I happen to agree with that; he was in his room only a couple of minutes and hurriedly changed his shirt as well.So the choice is: did he put the paystub & boxtop into his pants while he changed, or were they already in the fresh pants that were sitting in the dresser drawer?

I'd have to say that they were already in the pants, and he didn't even realize they were in the back pocket; we have no information from his DPD interrogations in regard to these items; were they, as some have speculated, to be shown to a contact in the Texas Theater? Or were they, as I instead think, inconsequential errata?

For Oswald to have picked up & retained one of the paystubs at Neely Street, this tells me he's mindful of the possibility that the name James Jackson & his company, American Bakeries- this could come in handy someday so he decided to hang onto it. And he did have some possible use in mind shortly before the assassination, the last time he'd worn the pants he got arrested in.

I have little clue as to why he'd have a boxtop from Cox's; perhaps the reason he acquired one was that there was some sort of savings-redemption program offered by the store, i.e. save 5 boxtops, get a free vacuum cleaner.

But all in all, my guess is that LHO wasn't even aware he had the boxtop & paystub on his person at his arrest, and that these items are inconsequential.

The pay stub and the torn box top were discovered at the same time as the bus transfer and shells. But all four of those items should have been found in the initial search.

The only item I believe "may" not have been planted is the box top. He may have been looking for a person in the theater who had the other (matching) half.

But let me get back to whether or not Oswald and family actually lived at the Neely St apartment.

The only two people who placed Oswald there were two people whose names keep morphing. None of the neighbors could recognize Oswald as having lived at that address - with one neighbor being certain the young couple who did live there for a short time IN APRIL AND MAY had two children.

The gas company had the gas on in the name of Oswald, but admitted they did not know if Oswald had attended in person, or merely phoned them. Either way, whoever put the gas on, obviously needed no proof of who they were.

A Dallas Electricity & Light employee had noted the name "Oswald" as the new resident, but had no idea where he got that information, nor did it apparently go on official records. Meanwhile, the meter reader reported that the place was vacant as at February 19 and again on March 20. He does NOT report it as occupied until the next reading on Apr 19. On the face of it, the indication is that the apartment was unoccupied until some time between March 20 and April 19.

This is within the range given by the Friddles for when the couple with two kids moved in - but well after the Oswald's had supposedly moved in.

Unless we assume. with Liftonesque audacity, that the meter reader was incompetent, I'm sticking with my original thought that the Oswald's never lived there.

And this is where the break and enter comes into play. The payslip was planted on Oswald simply to add further "proof" that he had lived at that address. It may be that there two were taken from the trash after the place had been cleaned in June, with one being placed back inside during a b& E and the other simply claimed to have been found on Oswald. Unlike the box top, I can divine no intelligence need for the pay slip - but it works as evidence of residence (assuming you don't stop too long to ponder why Oswald would keep the dam thing after "finding" it in the apartment!)

A question: Is it possible the BY photos were taken during the two month period that the B & Es occurred (obviously not with Oswald, but with his head later pasted on?)

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

I'm no botanist, but a comparison of a backyard photo with a re-enactment staged with DPD officer Bobby Brown leads me to believe the backyard photo was taken about mid-April.

http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/oswald-backyard-photos/

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4085-001.gif

First Day Evidence, p. 138: "a few days after the assassination, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service in Dallas called Captain Fritz and told him to get someone from the Crime Lab to go out and photograph the Neely Street backyard. Bobby was the only man from the Crime Lab to go..."

You can see that the tree in the street has begun to lose some leaves; the bush to the viewer's right is grown in, as compared to the backyard photo; and there are no ground plants under that bush.

The backyard photo looks like the leaves have just come in on the tree in the street and the bush (my guess this happens in early/mid April in Texas), and the ground plants have just sprouted up.

the meter reader for Dallas Power & Light visited 214 West Neely on March 20 and the meter "reflected 36 kilowatt hours had been used, however, the meter reader reported the premises vacant."

There were 66 kW hours recorded on April 19, and the premises were reported occupied.

Someone had obviously used up power there earlier in March; I think this was simply a case where the occupant wasn't home at the time of the meter reader's visit.

Ruth Paine's calendar for March 20 has "Marina" written in the top right-hand side: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0041b.htm

She explained (IX, p. 359) that "this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her." Additionally (II, p. 446) "and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, [/i]or brought her to my house[i], I am not certain which."

So I would say that the meter reader knocked and looked into the window of the entrance door to their sparsly-furnished apartment on March 20, there wasn't any response (since Marina had gone to Irving for the day), and made the assumption that no one was yet living there- judging that perhaps it was the landlord getting the place ready, to account for the power used.

LHO had just squared up with Dallas Power & Light on March 1 for his time at 604 Elsbeth #2, and never paid a penny for his time at 214 West Neely:

I'm no botanist, but a comparison of a backyard photo with a re-enactment staged with DPD officer Bobby Brown leads me to believe the backyard photo was taken about mid-April.

http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/oswald-backyard-photos/

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4085-001.gif

First Day Evidence, p. 138: "a few days after the assassination, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service in Dallas called Captain Fritz and told him to get someone from the Crime Lab to go out and photograph the Neely Street backyard. Bobby was the only man from the Crime Lab to go..."

You can see that the tree in the street has begun to lose some leaves; the bush to the viewer's right is grown in, as compared to the backyard photo; and there are no ground plants under that bush.

The backyard photo looks like the leaves have just come in on the tree in the street and the bush (my guess this happens in early/mid April in Texas), and the ground plants have just sprouted up.

Thank you Joseph Banks!

I had it in the back of my mind that they had been dated in this manner. But all it really says to me is that there was at least one photo taken in the backyard around that time. I don't believe anyone was posing in them - or if there was, it wasn't Oswald.

the meter reader for Dallas Power & Light visited 214 West Neely on March 20 and the meter "reflected 36 kilowatt hours had been used, however, the meter reader reported the premises vacant."

There were 66 kW hours recorded on April 19, and the premises were reported occupied.

Someone had obviously used up power there earlier in March; I think this was simply a case where the occupant wasn't home at the time of the meter reader's visit.

Ruth Paine's calendar for March 20 has "Marina" written in the top right-hand side: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0041b.htm

She explained (IX, p. 359) that "this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her." Additionally (II, p. 446) "and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, [/i]or brought her to my house[i], I am not certain which."

So I would say that the meter reader knocked and looked into the window of the entrance door to their sparsly-furnished apartment on March 20, there wasn't any response (since Marina had gone to Irving for the day), and made the assumption that no one was yet living there- judging that perhaps it was the landlord getting the place ready, to account for the power used.

LHO had just squared up with Dallas Power & Light on March 1 for his time at 604 Elsbeth #2, and never paid a penny for his time at 214 West Neely:

I don't think he intended to stay there very long, with New Orleans brewing, and figured since the electric was working when he moved in, why spend one more dime on it?

Damn you, Gilbride! Just as I was building up to the Grand-daddy of all Conspiracies, you pull the plug from the socket!

I had assumed the reading was the result of visits by the owner - who had actually gone to the apartment coincidentally on the day Oswald was making inquiries about it.

Okay. Back to the drawing board.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

This line of research has uncovered the splendid piece of information that 214 West Neely was "vacant and padlocked" from the time the Oswalds moved out to after the assassination, and that the landlord suspected somebody had broken in there in the meantime, for a "couple of months" previous to the assassination.

Nothing overtly incriminating turned up there in the FBI's post-assassination search. The second James Jackson paystub, after all, may have been innocently dropped and fallen into a floorboard crease (Oswald may have simply picked up the first paystub out of a somewhat devious curiosity; the brief Russian letter in the closet, apparently in Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's handwriting, doesn't conclusively marry into any other evidence).

I would say the burglar was there long enough to have used the toilet, or left traces of his having been in the bathroom. And, from the way Neely Street ties into the framing of Oswald, I would say that the reason for the burglaries had to do with the backyard photos.

Roscoe White would be my best guess as to the burglar's identity. I agree it's a definite possibility that no one posed in the backyard, although I'm fond of the idea that Ruth took these photos of Roscoe-in-black.

The key timing factor is that Marina was not on the premises; they may have been taken anywhere from early April (when she still lives there) to mid-May (judging from the foliage). In any case, the backyard photos are springtime photos. And the burglaries are noticed by Waldo George in the fall.

My guess is that the burglaries began as soon as the Oswalds vacated, and pertained to the taking of the backyard photos. But for some reason the burglar went back there in the fall, and slipped up and left some trace of his having been there.

March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment. Also that day, LHO orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.

Marina is taken away from the apartment on both occasions.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

Indeed! And according to the hypothesis presented in the "Ruth Paine's Calendar" thread, she forged & mailed the Klein's envelope; so we have an indication that she dropped it into a box in postal zone 12 just before her visit to Marina's on March 12.

And the 5-foot carton was shipped on March 20, a Wednesday, and probably didn't arrive in Dallas for 2 days; perhaps a Chicago postal informant alerted Harry Holmes in Dallas that the Hidell rifle was on its way (or even Ruth directly). Holmes' subsequent contact to Ruth may have compelled her to pay a visit to Marina that day.

Seems I'm not the first person to suspect the Oswald's never lived on Neely St... Shell Game Part 2

Doubts about Neely street start about half way down page 3

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

I have found some photographs that apparently show June Oswald on the balcony of the Neely Street house. I still think there are major problems with the dates of occupation and still believe there is something funny going on. And there's no way to prove the photographs are of June but they were allegedly in Oswald's belongings and Marina positively identified them.

I have found some photographs that apparently show June Oswald on the balcony of the Neely Street house. I still think there are major problems with the dates of occupation and still believe there is something funny going on. And there's no way to prove the photographs are of June but they were allegedly in Oswald's belongings and Marina positively identified them.

I have no basis to believe they are anything but what they are said to be... but I think I'll run them past June and see what she says.

If it is Neely St, maybe we can get an indication of approximate time-frame these were taken by getting an "expert" opinion on the age of the baby? (and when I say expert, I mean a mother - I'll put my hand up to being hopeless at guessing the age of babies...)

Were these supposed to have been taken by Marina, who didn't know how to use the Imperial Reflex?

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

Okay. That would be June's age bracket. I'll put it to her and report back.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

Nice one. I'm going to look at some of the other photographs of her tonight and see if it's possible to compare. There are some photos of Marina with June outside a house that it would appear she did not ID when she viewed them. I don't know what house it's supposed to be but the child looks a little older than in the Neely Street photographs

P.S. Is the EF down again?

Last edited by Lee David Farley on Fri 12 Aug 2011, 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added a P.S.)

These are of June at the Elsbeth apartment. I think it is the same kid that is in the Neely Street photograph, Greg.

Thanks Lee. I have asked June, but have not received a response. She no doubt, gets sick of the whole thing sometimes...

Can we establish that the setting really is the Neely St apt? What else do we know about the photos? Were they taken with the Imperial Reflex? Who by?

If we accept that June is around 12 months old, it means the photos were taken around the same time as the BY photos allegedly were.

It strikes me that these photos don't have the same clarity as the BY ones...

ps is it just me, or is the ED forum down?

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

Real good question, where the Neely apartment is in relation to Postal Zone 12, where the Hidell envelope to Klein's got postal-stamped. I got the distinct impression from reading Harvey & Lee that 214 W. Neely was in/very close to Postal Zone 12. It would be nice to check on that on some old Postal Service map.

Just wanted to mention that I got invited to speak at the Lancer conference this November, and accepted (after some rough deliberation). Hope to keep it "short and sweet", maybe focusing on Sylvia Meagher's Rice-A-Roni recipes.

Richard Gilbride wrote:Real good question, where the Neely apartment is in relation to Postal Zone 12, where the Hidell envelope to Klein's got postal-stamped. I got the distinct impression from reading Harvey & Lee that 214 W. Neely was in/very close to Postal Zone 12. It would be nice to check on that on some old Postal Service map.

Just wanted to mention that I got invited to speak at the Lancer conference this November, and accepted (after some rough deliberation). Hope to keep it "short and sweet", maybe focusing on Sylvia Meagher's Rice-A-Roni recipes.

She was some cook, alright. Knock 'em dead, Richard.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

Richard Gilbride wrote:Real good question, where the Neely apartment is in relation to Postal Zone 12, where the Hidell envelope to Klein's got postal-stamped. I got the distinct impression from reading Harvey & Lee that 214 W. Neely was in/very close to Postal Zone 12. It would be nice to check on that on some old Postal Service map.

Richard,

Edit to correct and include quotation:

In one of your posts in the "Ruth Paine's Calendar" thread, you say:

On the Tuesday morning of March 12, 1963, Oswald was working downtown at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a few blocks from Dealey Plaza.Unbeknownst to him, somebody in postal zone 12 in Oak Cliff dropped an envelope into a mailbox. The envelope was from "A. Hidell, PO Box 2915, Dallas" to Klein's Sporting Goods, Chicago.

Just wanted to mention that I got invited to speak at the Lancer conference this November, and accepted (after some rough deliberation). Hope to keep it "short and sweet", maybe focusing on Sylvia Meagher's Rice-A-Roni recipes.

She was some cook, alright. Knock 'em dead, Richard.

Last edited by Admin on Fri 13 Jan 2012, 7:24 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Incorrect quotation.)

Not problematically sure of what you're wondering here, but the Postal Zone 12 information in Harvey & Lee was without footnotes. Every initial & successive read on the whereabouts of that mailbox pictured it in Zone 12 close to Neely; I think John had written this Zone was a few miles due west of the Depository & in addition that it was beyond the Trinity River.

Pretty easy to surmise, from that, that Ruth drove over to Marina's and dropped off a sporting goods order coupon either before or after she swung by.

I'm very near-photographic on the contents of H & L, having had it open several years in succession on my table.