This deck has so many variations so time to sum them up and made a primer. Many version, but there is always same core. This kind of decks is actually (21 April 2011) 1nd with 18 tops so i think its worth playing them.

Threads on theSource:
D&T Builds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-%5BDeck%5D-Death-and-Taxes) a lot of experience from there

GW Pandora (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20054-GW-Pandora) - more hatebears MD if meta is more combo oriented.

GW Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16117-%5BDeck%5D-GW-Survival) - Survival is banned but other cards works the same.

GW/x is basically middle-aggro strategy with spot removal and LD strategy to slow down opponent. It uses many exalted to maximize damage. Using best creatures in format with removal and equip backup is your way to victory.

2. History of Evolution

GW/x middle-aggro lists started from banned GW Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16117-%5BDeck%5D-GW-Survival) which could Tutor up Fatties/Hatebears and Vengevine combo to speed up and kill in few turns. After ban Survival was gone and deck was re-sleeved. Soon after that new Mirrodin Besieged was developed and Green Sun's Zenith appeared. This is only one side of history second one is from AEther Vial deck which was present before Survival. Which was working on Scryb Ranger and Weathered Wayfarer CA advantage. Both decks have similar game plan - control and middle Aggro with equips from Stoneforge Mystic like Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Light and Shadow.

There are two primer builds of this deck: Vial or without. Both have some cons and pros. They're depended on meta, and play style. After almost half year of testing this construction I'm closer to without vial. Vial builds have dead cards in middle game which is your best time to win - Vials, u never want to draw them later than on first hand, also Vial build doesn't use best think which is GSZ (Green Sun's Zenith) - but in more CB/Controlish Oriented Meta Vials have their place.

This is Core, sum up from thecouncil.es (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Maverick&format=Legacy) from last 3 moths.

GSZ Build adds:

4 Green Sun's Zenith

and toolbox:

1 Dryad Arbor - if we miss first ramp drop
1 Tarmogoyf - if we need best P/T for less mana to block opponent Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore - Trample is a key connect with equips, best in KotR war, goblin chump block, protected chump etc.
1 Rhox War Monk - if your life matter
1 Birds of Paradise - evasion and mana, stabilize build with 5 first drop mana and 4 GSZ.
1 Rafiq of the Many - this 3/3 dude is faster than Progenitus - most important in races, double strikes miracles with equips.
1 Eternal Witness - CA is a key.

Note: Natural Order package never connects with Vial Package, works with GSZ package, D&T package always connects with Vial package.

GWb splash:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Thoughtseize
3-4 Vindicate

Works well with Vial Package never connect with NO

Some free slots:

Mirrian Crusader - good double-striker worth on Team America/BUG infected meta, not worth vs Aggro/Zoo meta.
Aven Mindcensor - worth on tricolor meta, combo
Sword of Light and Shadow - worth on middle range/rock/junk
Sylvan Library - worth on controlish meta
Gaddock Teeg - worth on combo meta
Mother of Runes to 4 - depends on meta vs heavy aggro works quite well
Tarmogoyf - We can't Support them good, but if meta is full of Tresholds its worth to play on more than one.

List had some issues with lack of disrupt (like only 2 wastelands) but running 3 Aven Mindcensors which was really nice. But the most impressive was Punishing Fire with Grove of the Burnwillows. It resolve the most problems which had Mavericks - Lack of removal and plainwalkers. I worked with my playtest group on this build and here are the results.

+ Bojuka MD was very good, it helps almost in any MU, specially since Snapcasters are so popular, it can also support Punishing Fire to took down opponents KotRs.
- Tower of Magistrate - this isn't needed since you running more removal spells it only bring edge in Metalworker MU and Affinity where Maze is better, taking down equip isn't mostly needed since you have more removal spells.
- only 6 fetchlands are painful, you KotR have to grow faster since you want to race Dismembers
+ Life from the Loam was house in some MU, even bringing back arbor or any other fetchlands is great CA, but there was a problem - 1 was too random, but 2 was much worst - dead draw.
- 2 Scavenging Ooze isn't needed if you are running Bojuka MD.
- Only one Qasali Pridemage was too low count in some MU where are Enchantments/Equips heavy, It can also be a normal beater.

Comments about MD:
We added 2 Sylvan Library which was house - every equip gives life, you have 19 shuffling effects + life from the Loam as card selection.
We cut one Mother of Runes - here are the reasons - since list is running so many 1CC creatures, EE, Pernicous Deed or Jitte is devastating to avoid it we cut of of then, since double MoR isn't mostly needed. It also doesn't stop flyers, and it can be death end when opponent stifle it. Since Tempo is rising it was reasonable, also EE on SB was edge in Mirrors.

This build have only one gap - it's not running Aven Mindcensors which where really good, but since I faced a lot of mirrors and tempo (also with Punishing Fire) I dropped them - but in blind meta - they should be MD - decide on your own what to cut.

Comments about SB:

I bring 2 Path to Exile to have edge over mirrors with aditional removal since everyone is fetching for basics to avoid wasteland, or even wastelock.
1 Krosan is to break stagnation under humility, also don't forgot that EE can be putted for 4 with bojuka.
2 EE - first we started to playing on 1 on sb but it wasnt enough in random meta - enchantress was painful - now with 2 EE this MU is much easier. It can be also bringed vs any CB, or even I found that it is useful in mirrors to take 2-1 or even 3-1.

At the end here is the list what can kill and what resolve running Punishing Fire MD with Grove of the Burnwillows:
-Kill Bob
-Kill Delver
-Kill Lavamancer
-Kill KotR combine with Bojuka
-Kill Clique
-Kill any manadork
probably kill 90% of creatures in Legacy

-Kill Jace or force it to fateseal mostly it just kill - since you almost always have board presence
-Kill Liliana of the Veil
-Kill own creatures to blow up bridges

But more over here are more impacts running Burnwillows:
-You can avoid early Submerges still having Green mana

At the end here is good news about Aven Mindcensor - it suppress Extripate and Surgical Extraction - if your opponent would search library he looking only at top4 cards so.. punishing fire is much harder to remove than most people think about.

3c. Straight GW builds focused on combo/control meta 31 Mar 2012

Since Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was added from Dark Ascension to cardpool new builds of Mavericks was rised.

Comments:
Thalia gives huge push up and edge against any Control/Combo decks, beeing Thorn of Amethyst with Legs it gives time to Maverick setup board. Paired with Aven Mindcensor and wastelands can complate lock most of decks. Only problem of this deck is lack of removal - Path to Exile isn't good way since it release from lock - Aven not always will be in play. Gut Shot's looks promising here.

4. Meta Analysis and tips vs MU

This deck is middle range so basically it has good MU with tribals and bad MU with combo. Here is some analysis:

Its 50-50 MU, key is to screw tricolor mana base, more fatties, Progenitus or Sword of Light and Shadow.
Look out for single Pernicious Deed. Also while fetching search basics, Vial builds look out for Vindicate/Deed.

After board play more control, never put more than 2 green fatties at once (more Deeds/Perish). Equipped Fattie or Planswalker works the best, also tempo them out while opponent mana screw/sensei's answer.

They have faster tempo, u can win only if game will be longer. Keep StP for fatties, use Scryb only when its worth. Equip as fast as possible, also put Fattie to block Nacatl/Goyfs. After board there is much easier.

Tip - Ramp and put Gaddock as fast as possible to race them, before bounce/answer. If they have Counter/Discard use Witness to bring it back. Mom can protect him vs removal/bounce, use Scryb Ranger for double protection, also equip can give it.

BUG Landstill: 45%-50%

This MU is heavy removal so important is tempo and avoiding all in plays. Fetch basics to avoid mana screw and lock with loam/wasteland. Deeds are also scary.

I found best board for Landstill - just use the same - Life from the Loam and GY-hate. Landstill have one big weakness - mana base it needs all 3 colors with 8 colores source early wasteland can slow them down, after putting tread on table just loam to the end, also picking up waste with canopy brings you CA - connect it with Choke and you have free way to victory. They mostly bring more removal vs you so you're rather save with that strategy.

This is very hard subject - choosing Equipments depends on meta and own playstyle.

Lets look in to our arsenal worth putting:

Umezawa's Jitte - Most universal equip can be removal/life gainer/pump, but not great against low creature control doesn't bring any protection. Need to be charged with combat dmg. Legendary which brings many impact in aggro mirror.

Aim - Aggro Mirror - You will always met this card in Aggro Bant, Merfolks, Mavericks, Claw-Blades, NoGoyfs, Zoo and anything which have +10 creatures in deck. Best way to deal with it is to playing itself.

Aim - Merfolks, Goblins, Aggro Loam - R/U protection isn't relevant on other archetypes - it doesn't protect you equipped creature from removal, but on listed MU it really MVP. I think this Sword is one of the best - but on paper - I actually cut them due to heavy Middle-range aggro decks in my meta which punishes all Merfolks lovers.

Sword of Light and Shadow - Pro W/B (90% of removal in format) conditional generate CA bringing back creactures from GY, also life gainer.

Aim - Middle Range - heavy removal meta, discard - Junk, B/W Discard, Maverick, Bant, Team America, Zoo - that is quite long list - I think it's Sword is one of the most underrated one, CA which it generate is conditional, but here is a tech on middle/late game u bring the best creature from GY not random card, also it is very useful in Maverick (which is heavy creature deck) u can bring Eternal Witness which open way to bringing any card from GY. Mostly lists cut this equip from list because it doesn't bring any advantage on start - just lifegain - looks like it depends on playstyle.

Aim - Team America, Middle-aggro decks: Bant, Maverick, Zoo, B/W Discard, Junk - This Sword is similar to SoLS, but it has two main difference - its much better vs Control due to conditional CA - discard and tempo gaining untapping lands, second difference is protection - doesn't bring pro W which is still most common removal in legacy. While building deck I was thinking about this one, but one thing decided to abandon this equip - I want bringing back best creature from my GY against control, not discarding the worst card in his hand. Untapping effect lose vs missing protection from White in my meta.

This Sword could be one of the best, it has really universal Protection against Middle-range aggro(G) and Merfolks(U) (which are actually one of the best and common decks), but its milling ability ruin all good things in it. I wouldn't recommend this kind of Sword in any MU - opening more options to opponent is always bad.

Aim - Zoo - this equip fits to really fast aggro decks which doesn't care about CA - Maverick isn't this kind of deck. Protections are really good vs most aggro decks but narrow use of this sword says everything - it doesn't do anything expect conditional punch and lifegain.

Aim - Blind meta except for combo- It shouldn't be here in Swords category - this is 4/4 Lifelink dude which can be really annoying. Its very universal thing - 4/4 Lifelink / Vigilance for 1W is always good. It brings CA vs Creature Removal, but its heavy mana use to be effective. It's useful vs anything - good reason to punish opponents without removal on your mystic.

Manriki-Gusari - mostly forgotten equip used as equip hate.

Aim - Heavy Equip meta - this equip says - I will destroy all your equips - nothing more - If your meta is full of Batterskull/Jitte/other use it on SB - its really worth.

More info about equipment toolbox (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21257-The-best-equipment-for-a-stoneforge-package&p=563784#post563784)

9. Building Your Own Maverick

This deck a consistence toolbox vs predicted meta. Since I'm IT Analyst, I give you packages against some meta, then lists of 1-ofs to complement your build to personal likes. Packages are mostly focused on lasts lists 31 Mar 2012

After you choose your packages time to sum it up and choose some 1-ofs and manabase to complete the build.

One-ofs have functions as silver bullets and late game plans.

List of silver bullets:
+ Qasali Pridemage - Core contain only 1, but good to have more in meta where artifacts/enchantments are presence.
+ Scavenging Ooze - its very good nowadays, good vs any snapcasters, opposite Knight of the Reliquary or any gy dependent strategy.
+ Mother of Runes - if your meta is aggro one or infested with point removal playing full playset is a good option, poor vs Deed decks - Landstill/Nic Fit.
+ Gaddock Teeg - MD mostly vs Combo meta, can also suppress WoG/DoJ.
+ Thrun, the Last Troll - very good vs UW, and other SLOW controls. Don't forgot it dies to Perish/WoG/if lonely also Liliana of the Veil
+ Maze of Ith - vs aggro MU
+ Bojuka Bog - if you have stable manabase can be MD under KotR - good specially with Punishing Fire Package.
+ Geist of the Saint Traft - hexproof gives and edge vs any hardspot removal controls - require U splash
+ Sylvan Safekeeper - GSZ Mother of Runes - like gives only shroud, but doesn't bring CA, works instantly after entered to the battlefield.
+ Life from the Loam - mostly connected with Punishing Fire and Eternal Witness, works good only vs decks with few basics (or even none).
+ Tower of Magistrate - good vs equips and affnity

Late game plans:
+ Elspeth, Knight Errant - Gives Evansion, creatures to equip and have not bad ulitmate - great late card - only problem 4cc.
+ Sylvan Library - CQ with so many shuffling effects works very good vs slow controls/middle range, connect with lifegain it also brings a lot of CA.
+ Eternal Witness - its a green Snapcaster - Regrowth under GSZ helps in many situation - but have in mind opposite Oozes which can clean our gy.

Manabase:
You should run at least 22 lands which at least 18 gives color mana with it there should be at least 6 fetchlands.
Running too many functional lands like:
- Maze of Ith
- Gaea's Cradle
- Bojuka Bog
- Wastelands
Can destroy your manabase which leads to mulligans or loses bacause of opposite wasteland - keep that in mind building your manabase.

Sideboard building

Sideboard is mostly focused on strategies which can be present and your MD doesn't have tools to fight against. Your in 5. Chapter in primer there is a list to cards which tips.

Comments, mistakes (languages also) please.

Caspian

04-19-2011, 03:29 PM

So happy to see this thread finally...I felt bad posting lists into the Death and Taxes thread. I've recently sold off most of my blue duals to economize down to one legacy deck I've picked this one. Even though it's not the 'winningest' I really enjoy playing it.

Thank-you for all your work on the Primer. I'm sure over time we'll fill it out. This feels like a deck that can only get better and better and better.

I've made my choice and chosen this deck but it is one of the 'fair' legacy decks. It doesn't do anything totally crazy and it more or less interacts on the normal planes of Magic. How do players of this deck justify playing it over more powerful decks? My reasons are personal and also because in Legacy even a scrub can steal a win now and then...

Psydonome

04-19-2011, 05:23 PM

In my opinion Mother of Runes with Scryb Ranger isn´t that fair. I tested a similar list, but i came to the conclusion that blue isn´t necessary. You lose only Rafiq and Rox War Monk but wins a more stable mana base (more Basics / Horizon Canopy) and I use the space for more cards of the Core (like Mother and Pridemage). At the moment I´m testing Mirran Crusader Maindeck and oneoff Thrun, the Last Troll.
Against Goblins and other Crowds Dueling Grounds seems to be a very fine choice. I´m interested what do you think about other ideas like Cold-Eyed Selkie or Sejiri Steppe.
And at last, do you think one Goyf is really enough?

JCLe

04-19-2011, 07:08 PM

You should include in this primer the link to the forums where this deck is actually real and an important contender of the metagame. I'm not saying it's not good but I'm just saying not enough americans play it.

And the french forum http://www.legacy-france.org/Maverick-G-W-t5357.html

If you are able to understand those languages those threads are gonna be a good read for you. (If you'd like help on reformating the deck variations I can help, just lmk through pm!)

In the matchup analysis section, put BUG landstill - it's just up there with storm as bad matchups, if not worse... UWx landstill is easier.

Other than that nice primer, thanks!

Fatal

04-19-2011, 07:21 PM

@Psydonome

About my list:

Single Tropical is worth, Rafiq is MVP in every races also Rhox War Monk - this card basically wins some matchups, i also tested Thrun and Crusader and they was so so - 4 mana slot needs to be bomb troll isn't - its slow and dies to edicts or just combat dmg - regeneration is costy, game doesn't goes to 6 land drops mostly - unless your winning or losing, Crusader looks nice but it dies to quick vs most removal in legacy STP/bolts and P/T isn't good for 3 mana.

About Crowd decks Dueling Grounds is very good - mostly goblins which MU is quite good. If your meta is infected by Goblins play it its best card specially vs R/b version which can't handle enchantments.

Cold-Eyed Selkie is very good but to slow this deck is middle-aggro which means u always want to put some big fattie for 3 mana. This dude isn't so good - it works only vs control meta which also have a lot of removal - so it doesn't matter - swinging for 1 (mostly other creatures died before) even with drawing card isnt revelant as swinging for 8-10 from KotR which brings you victory. Vs Merfolks its overkill we have good MU without it.

Sejri Steppe have the same problem - KotR mostly swings or just fetching more lands it will be killed while attacking or just after cast so not worth destabilize mana base with tapland - u will lose more games cause of it.

Goyf is just a 2 mana Fattie u can't support it size, as I metion before its worth only vs control where single creature need to be a tread with fast clock. Its not fit to your game plan - you have 4 hierarchs, 1 BoP, 4 Zenith's this mean 9 first turn mana drops. You always want to cast something for 3 mana or that single goyf from zenith. Nothing more. Then KotR/Equip/tricks is more worth. Summing if your meta is *****-hold oriented or burn oriented play more Goyfs/Rhox War Monk (best one vs burn).

@Edit Adding links to Italian and French threads - THX :)

I add BUG Landstill to MU and tips about it.

Last word about Gaea's Cradle - its powerful but after months of testing its win more card. It can ramp you for one-two mana more but vs control MU like landstill its dead card. I also avoid NO package because it only works in good MU, and its awful in bad once. I think avoiding dead cards is best way to make stable deck. Gaddock Teeg is exception which is only answer to autolose vs storm G1. I was playing last tournament vs Z-Bomb with NO package and ... he loses because of it - drawing progenitus on hand is a nightmare without brainstorms. Fauna Shaman resolve this problem but it's just to slow to be effective. At the end few words about Dauntless Escort - its good only with NO package, but mostly its just a 3 mana 3/3 dude which dies normally. Its not good answer against pernicous deed - mostly its connected with point removal so it can be trap for use thinking that board is safe - EOT point removal vs it and you're doomed - better are Chokes or Loames connected with single fattie on table.

CorpT

04-19-2011, 10:20 PM

Any consideration for Mirran Crusader? With Equipment... he's very powerful.

paladin3056

04-19-2011, 11:46 PM

Great primer, I think there should be a Sub forums for such just like in mtgsalvation, since discussing different decks of a certain strategy but different card choices and color can be quite confusing in a single thread.

^ I have to agree that Mirran Crusader is crazy strong, works even better with equipments and the swords since you would get double the rewards plus additional protection.

Fatal

04-20-2011, 06:48 AM

Crusader is very good specially vs Team America/BUG control, but its very weak vs Zoo/Goblins/Sligh meta - so its rather free slot depends on meta.

M@verick

04-20-2011, 12:02 PM

There is another forum talking about the deck. It´s an spanish forum:

http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2398

If you are able to understand spanish, you can learn a lot about the deck.

I have played this deck for a long time, with good results. Here are my thoughts:

- I dont like NO versions. Prog is a great finisher, but do the deck more random. I think it´s not needed
- I prefer birds of paradise over noble hierarch, because swords-equipments. In mirror games, birds >> noble
- I prefer the old vial-wayfarer version. I think it´s more stable. And I have tried all versions (with black, with NO, with zenith). Actually I am playing this version (well, i have always played this build). I splitted the final on a 171 players tournament, winning all games (at the end, it was 18-0).

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5763&iddeck=41730

-The deck has few bad MU: inmho, only combo (storm (hardest), high tide, enchantress, burn (easier)) and faster builds of zoo. Merfolk is aprox 80-20. Jace control is not so hard with vial and wayfarer. I think its favourable

Fatal

04-20-2011, 05:03 PM

Nice list, I don't like Sylvan Library with Vial (dis-synergy), Zenith build gives you answer to faster Zoo - Rhox War Monk, also Burn MU isn't so hard with it - u can also bring tutorable Gaddock Teeg which can steal first game un-prepared Storm player - tip here - fetch Tropical Island as normal Bant.

Koby

04-20-2011, 06:18 PM

Nice list, I don't like Sylvan Library with Vial (dis-synergy), Zenith build gives you answer to faster Zoo - Rhox War Monk, also Burn MU isn't so hard with it - u can also bring tutorable Gaddock Teeg which can steal first game un-prepared Storm player - tip here - fetch Tropical Island as normal Bant.

How is card filtering (Library) dis-synergistic with AEther Vial? You spend your first turn cast Vial, then your 2nd turn casting Library allowing you to dig/filter out the creatures you need/Vial you don't. How is this unlike Vial/Standstill from the Merfolk from days of old?

deviant

04-20-2011, 07:44 PM

I've used to play this quite a lot on modo a month or so back, when I had time to do so. Even though I did some random scooping here and there (sealed pools, porn or random movies in general don't go so well with actually playing mtg) I managed to win about 75% (a quick count got me to 40-9) of my matches in dailies.

The deck was really good, and my build was a little different than what most people seem to use.

I arrived at a GSZ version (no terravore, that's just bad) with 2-3 mirran crusaders as beatsticks that don't get wrecked by random GY hate, as I felt very uncomfortable playing gw beats and having people bring in gy hate against me - and it being the correct call.

Here is one decklist, if someone wants to try out a version that beats face a little better. (less cute tricks)

http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=249004

The sylvan library was pretty terrible, as there was not very often a good time to play it, and it could be pretty much anything. The sb is a mess, as I just wanted to try out all the cool cards I could think of.

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 09:33 PM

I know those without loyal retainers will not like this list but I'm throwing it out there because it is pretty good:

This is probably the only build of WG that has a good chance against Combo. MD I have 9 ways (4 GSZ, 4 Fauna, 1 Teeq) of getting a bear out by T3. Post board I get + 7 (4 Tutor, 1 Revoker, 1 Null Rod, 1 Cannonist) giving me a total of 16 outs to combo. Other than combo busting, there are some other reasons for playing the Fauna-Iona-Retainers package:

1. Synergy with Aether Vial, Fauna and loyal retainers can both be powered out by vial, something that NO + Equipment are not synergistic with.Vial is broken, playing broken things is good.
2. Iona stops broken things cold, Like opposing natural orders, Loam shenanigans, enchantress, combo and just all around shafts people. You will be surprised how easy it is to get it out T4.
3. Fauna shaman gives amazing consistency to the deck, getting you what you need when you need it.
4. Vulnerability of NO/Equipment plan. NO is vulnerable to counterspells. You can invest so much resources into casting NO just to have it pierced/dazed/FOWed. That sucks. Equipment is weak to removal. You can spend so much mana to stoneforge for equipment, cast equipment, and equip, only to be blown out by a pridemage/stp. Equipment also does nothing against combo.
5. Robustness of Vial-Fauna-Iona-Retainers. Vial is a must answer @ 1-mana. Baiting a Force for 1 mana compared to NO (4 mana + 1 dude) is much more efficient. Fauna is a must answer for 2 mana, instead of playing stoneforge, casting equip and equipping (6 mana spent) only to be blown out by removal, Fauna just straight up trades with removal.

Cheers!

Fatal

04-21-2011, 02:19 AM

Every time I tried Fauna Shaman it was turn to slow. Hate on turn 3 is definitely to slow to all storm combo. GSZ brings hate on turn 2 - and still to slow, also in topdeck mode drawing Fauna Shaman isn't great. I tested only 2 Faunas so maybe in multiple they're better - testing needed.

Vial-Sylvan Library - Vial works on upkeep - Sylvan works in draw step, after fetch u have to guess what's comes, also double sylvan/vial is awful - power of this deck is - no dead cards even noble hierarch gives +1/0 which can help.

Every FoW opponents casted is profit for us in CA - mostly all decks side them out for more removal.

Retrainers - Iona looks nice but nowadays KotR and Karakas is so popular so its not always good.

Vial + GSZ is awful in one deck - GSZ works good only with first turn mana drop - without it its timewalk for opponent.

Missing one of the best cards - Elspeth, Knight-Errant its amazing vs all control decks, aggro almost in all MU (maybe not vs combo ;) ) free dude, many loyalty, flying - that's all what u need in turn 3-4 and later.

ivanpei

04-21-2011, 06:40 AM

Agreed preboard it's rough against quick storm. However this can beat slower combo like show and tell, NO and spiral tide (especially postboard). I'm not bashing on your deck or anything. Both decks have pros and cons. You should give my list a try. Fauna is a 4 or 0 kind of card, like aether vial. You need to see it early to be good. The thing about legacy is speed. My list is very very quick and once iona lands, CA is no longer an issue.

As for the kotr karakas argument, fauna is not limited to just fetching Iona retainers. You just go for more kotrs and kick their ass. Gsz and vial don't combo, sure. But the deck has 25 creatures! You can just drop creatures and just cast gsz? Sure sylvan and vial don't combo but I just leave vial @ 2 since most of the deck centers around 2 drops. Sylvan is just there for gas. Vial is a broken card. Aggro decks should run it. I rather build an aggro deck around vial rather than any other card. There is a reason why vial decks make up almost half the field in most tournaments.

ivanpei

04-21-2011, 06:41 AM

Agreed preboard it's rough against quick storm. However this can beat slower combo like show and tell, NO and spiral tide (especially postboard). I'm not bashing on your deck or anything. Both decks have pros and cons. You should give my list a try. Fauna is a 4 or 0 kind of card, like aether vial. You need to see it early to be good. The thing about legacy is speed. My list is very very quick and once iona lands, CA is no longer an issue.

As for the kotr karakas argument, fauna is not limited to just fetching Iona retainers. You just go for more kotrs and kick their ass. Gsz and vial don't combo, sure. But the deck has 25 creatures! You can just drop creatures and just cast gsz? Sure sylvan and vial don't combo but I just leave vial @ 2 since most of the deck centers around 2 drops. Sylvan is just there for gas. Vial is a broken card. Aggro decks should run it. I rather build an aggro deck around vial rather than any other card. There is a reason why vial decks make up almost half the field in most tournaments.

Legacy revolves around doing unfair things. By itself, equips and elspeth are too "fair". I've lost games to goblins and merfolk even though I stick equips, elspeth or NO. Simply because they are too fair. Iona is Just broken especially on t4. I highly advise not dismissing Iona retainers. It's very very solid.

Fatal

04-21-2011, 07:44 AM

Ok i give her a try, but I'm sceptic about this plan, Reanimator puts Iona faster, and can protect her against random things, we can't. Also list miss equip package with is very soild vs gobs - jitte/SofI is nuts, can see also eternal witness which would be very nice here. Goyfs here are vs other goyfs (we can't support them for more than 2/3 -3/4) or just coudn't find better 2 mana dude - just asking looking for room for GSZ toolbox which is very soild.

Adding that this construction made next tops and it's actually leader in Tier1 decks from thecouncil.es database.

Patrick Chapin has said and I fully agree that this card will change Legacy as we know it. I think Maverick benefits from this spell incredibly well. Not just by playing it but by it being played in general. When people are losing 2 life on their first turn, plus fetches, plus Force, plus Thoughseizes (in the Team America case) it speeds up our clock and puts more aggressive strategies on top in terms of deck building.

I think this card necessitates a shift to more aggressive builds that can clock someone really fast. This card completely hoses Aethervial, which in my opinion is not superior to Noble Hierarch/GSZ plan that just tries to get the mana advantage.

I feel like we have to run this card or be left in the dust. With it we gain 'Force of Will' like powers, countering: Nobles, Thoughseize, Vials, Tops, Mother, GrimLavamancer, Lackey and a ton of other cards I can't even think of at the moment. Not to mention that we will need to be countering Mental Mishap itself.

As people adopt this card the need for CA will become more important. So my snap analysis right now is that any 'value engine' like Elspeth will help both in pushing the aggro AND providing a source of board advantage without spending cards.

Another thought I've had is to include Inkmoth Nexus over Wasteland. Pretty radical I know but with Exalted, possibly equipment and Elspeth you've got a pretty tight 2 turn clock against most decks. Decks only run 4 Wastelands and if you run as many non-basics as this deck does you already accept loosing lands to Wastes.

And I gotta admit that Sword of Feast and Famine is too good not to really try. In conjunction with Inkmoth Nexus or Elspeth to help with the 'connection' the mana advantage is back-breaking. With GSZ since you can fully take advantage of all the extra mana.

Food for thought.

CorpT

04-21-2011, 11:34 AM

Even if you do land a "fast" Iona with a Retainer... what then? I say "fast" because Shaman are not fast at all. With Survival, you could really blast them out there, but with Fauna Shaman... it is much slower. I have Retainers so that is not the issue, but that seems like a pretty poor play. You're basically wasting 6 slots in a pretty tight deck already. GSZ and better creatures just sounds like a better plan.

Fatal

04-21-2011, 11:38 AM

@Patrick has right. This card will change the meta, or rather force to adapt. GSZ is big winner here since we can dodge every mana cost like playing vs CB.

As i was thinking what to cut to put 3-4 MM in decks basically it will be:
-1 BoP/Hierarch to avoid other MM discadvantage
-1 Qasali Pridemage - very dependent on meta if its enchantment/arfitact heavy i would cut rather anything else like SoLS to side
-1 Scryb Ranger (so single on under GSZ) since its utility we mostly want it no more than one on table
-1 Rhox War Monk/Gaddock Teeg - depends on meta if its agressive Gaddock out, if its Combo Rhox War Monk

Also thinkinb about one KotR - yeap since we have answer to opponent StP/PtE it isn't so important to keep so much of them.

But this looks only good on paper as long as testing provides real answers we have to wait.

About Inkmoth Nexus - its terrible idea wasteland is a tempo card - it slow down opponent and kills important lands like Glacial Chasm/Maze of Ith etc this man land doesn't fit to deck i tested much better lands in singleton like Nantuko Monastery. This deck need a lot of Green sources with wastelands, maze of ith we sometimes have problem with starting mana adding additional colorless source it will be very hard to stabilize mana base.

Last word about SoF&F its good tempo card, but SoLS/SoFI/Jitte are just much better. Using man lands with infect doesn't fit to this deck - I propose trying it just in poison affnity - its good there not here.

deviant

04-21-2011, 01:14 PM

Even if you do land a "fast" Iona with a Retainer... what then? I say "fast" because Shaman are not fast at all. With Survival, you could really blast them out there, but with Fauna Shaman... it is much slower. I have Retainers so that is not the issue, but that seems like a pretty poor play. You're basically wasting 6 slots in a pretty tight deck already. GSZ and better creatures just sounds like a better plan.

I agree. Testing has also lead me to believe no other targets for GSZ are needed in the md but tarmogoyf, noble, bird, pridemage, kotr and teeg. Of those only teeg is a card I wasn't playing already.

Seems a little too soft to combo for my liking. I had never thought of the single blue splash before reading the primer so thank-you for that. I was stuck in splash for Brainstorm/Force/Stifle instead of this more modest one. Never played with Warmonk/Rafiq before and I'm interested to see how it goes. Edit: I find the lack of Tarmogoyf's disturbing...

I have, in the past, run 1-2 Enlightened Tutors in the main-deck to help fetch-up equipment as well as MD Ethersworn Cannonist or Phyrexian Revokers. It would also make more space in the board for other Tutor targets or more specific non-tutorable SB cards. Cannonist with Mental Misstep back-up seems like the best way for a non-blue deck who wants velocity - to steal a term - to fight combo.

Sword of Feast and Famine is better than people think. Most blockers are green in Legacy (read: Tarmogoyf) and Sword solves that. If you're going to play a fair deck you have to do all that you possibly can to put on a fast clock. With Mental Misstep in the MD I'm less worried about StP than I normally would be so Light and Shadow becomes more of a narrow option in my opinion.

I think Light and Shadow is better in the Vial builds where you can take full advantage of the recursion. Returning and Vialing in before your next untap step is great. Likewise, Feast and Famine is better in the GSZ versions because you can make your first main phase plays, then GSZ or cast more threats in your second main as well. Also I feel that F&F allows me to interact with their resources (their hand) in a way I can't otherwise.

I'm sure I'm being too cute with GSZ targets as well but I have a lot of testing to do and few opportunities to do it so I'm trying to take good notes as I play with so many different (but overlapping) options. I'm a big fan of Troll Ascetic in certain M/Us. The mirror, Zoo, random aggro, Goblins. Swinging in, shrouded with equipment is an absolute beating. How do people feel about Xantid Swarm as a possible one-of in board? I still feel like flyers are pretty strong in Legacy still and he would boost the effectiveness of GSZ for sure. I'm not sure what the meta-game's going to look like with Mental Misstep asking people to re-evaluate their deck building.

I just realized with the blue splash and Knight of the Reliquary I can use Academy Ruins...I wonder how that can be taken advantage of...hmm.

Batterskull also looks like a sweet sweet card for this deck. I want second wave power and that card has it in spades and it's tutorable.

deviant

04-23-2011, 10:18 AM

Terravore/Rhox War Monk are both very good as GSZ targets.

Monk is imo not worth splashing for, as it is clearly not needed in the zoo mu, and the very rare burn mu is almost acceptable without it. Can't say if it swings the goblins mu enough to become interesting, but I would assume it swings the merfolk mu just as much making it again - not worth it.

Rafiq I have been debating though, as it wouldn't even need a tropical in the manabase to be playable. But then again, I haven't really ever wanted to be able to fetch up him so..

My issue with terravore is that it's vulnerable to relics etc, and Kotr is just the better target most of the time. I have played cold-eyed selkie though, as a GSZ target and it was actually pretty good. In my testing though, it ran into the same problem terravore did: GSZ for 3 just wanted Kotr instead, so why bother?

Fatal

04-23-2011, 01:57 PM

Terravore have their time when fighting opponent KotR's or with Protections or just chump blocks like goblins(Trample over) - being one of we don't have to afraid of Relics, about RWM - its best creature against all tempo decks when we are racing. One tropical MD isn't scary against islandwalk (merfolks) and it helps to hardcast your toolbox from hand, about SoFaF its good, but doesn't bring CA when both players playing in topdeck mode, also protection from white is very needed (almost more than vs green) to avoid StPs. About Metal Misstep testings shows how good they are, and how many of them fit to deck.

SoLS is very good in any Junk MU - discard isn't so pain if we can bring them back - trick with eternal witness which is one of the best from toolbox. I think Xantid Swarm is bad idea. Playing vs Counterspells isn't hard we just have 26 treads, 4 stp and 20 lands :]

Koplinchen

04-26-2011, 05:03 AM

I am so happy about this thread. Thank you Fatal.
I am thinking and playing my own version of this deck which is great fun to play. My first idea was that I want to run Dark Confidant AND Green Sun's Zenith apart from other staff. It souds to good not to run - keeps manacost of the deck pretty low. I wasnt sure wheather I want to run Aether Vial, Mox, mana critters or some combination of these. Everyone told me that Vial is akward with GSZ and I dont have good experience with mox as 3 of. I never drew one. Always none and then 2-3.
Vial has its obvious advantages. Vial + dark confidan= drawin another AV one doesent hurt too much. Since everyone complains about drawin multiple...
I wanted to run Mangara of Corondor (2 of) but I am not so sure anymore.
Would you be so kind and give my some advice how to finish this build?

I guess the card selection is obvious. I will run 21 lands depending on what I add so this is not the case. My point is:
- should I add 4 Aether Vials? Is it so weird with GSZ?
- 4 Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise?
- if I add Aether Vial should I run 2 Mangara and 2 karakas? It's a game with Quirion...
- is wise to run 4 vials AND 4 Noble Hierarch?
- I can add extra mother, stoneforge, tarmogoyf, eqipment...
- I want to add some more creatures anyway - should it be: Terravore, Weathered Wayfarer, Aven Mindcensor or even Rhox Warmonk, Trygon Predator? (with one tropical in main)
- 1 Elspeth, KE, SDT, Sylvan Library?
- Or anything else....

Thank you all!

dsck

04-26-2011, 07:44 AM

I am so happy about this thread. Thank you Fatal.
I am thinking and playing my own version of this deck which is great fun to play. My first idea was that I want to run Dark Confidant AND Green Sun's Zenith apart from other staff. It souds to good not to run - keeps manacost of the deck pretty low. I wasnt sure wheather I want to run Aether Vial, Mox, mana critters or some combination of these. Everyone told me that Vial is akward with GSZ and I dont have good experience with mox as 3 of. I never drew one. Always none and then 2-3.
Vial has its obvious advantages. Vial + dark confidan= drawin another AV one doesent hurt too much. Since everyone complains about drawin multiple...
I wanted to run Mangara of Corondor (2 of) but I am not so sure anymore.
Would you be so kind and give my some advice how to finish this build?

I guess the card selection is obvious. I will run 21 lands depending on what I add so this is not the case. My point is:
- should I add 4 Aether Vials? Is it so weird with GSZ?
- 4 Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise?
- if I add Aether Vial should I run 2 Mangara and 2 karakas? It's a game with Quirion...
- is wise to run 4 vials AND 4 Noble Hierarch?
- I can add extra mother, stoneforge, tarmogoyf, eqipment...
- I want to add some more creatures anyway - should it be: Terravore, Weathered Wayfarer, Aven Mindcensor or even Rhox Warmonk, Trygon Predator? (with one tropical in main)
- 1 Elspeth, KE, SDT, Sylvan Library?
- Or anything else....

Thank you all!

Hey, I played locally against similar list what you are building. He played Vindicates/Thoughtseizes/Inquistion of Kozileks/Maelstrom Pulses/Tidehollow Scullers + maybe hymn. Nobles are good with Zenith. No Vials/Mother of runes/Scryb ranger/Quirion ranger.

Fatal

04-26-2011, 03:19 PM

Ok, let's analyze some cards interaction, and choose what is the best:

AEther Vial + Confidant

This interaction is well known, used in most BW Tempo decks alone with Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize (to take out removal mostly which is pain, so Mother of Runes and against combo helps also)

So conclusion - OK good interaction.

AEther Vial + GSZ

Those one, aren't great together. Let's go to some example - starting Vial brings advantage in turn 3-5 which is basically enabler for creatures in hand. Right CREATURES not sorceries never bring creature from vial using zenith. Green Sun Zenith's are good only with first turn mana drop, and on middle-late game, without that Hierarch/BoP/Dryad they're just one turn slower creature this mean that u have to fight goyfs vs your hierarch, or your goyfs vs KotR - this isn't rather fair fight :] - Bringing Vial to deck u make more death draws - Confidant can help but speaking true - he never lives to long.. more consistant deck is better. Also turn 3 Confidant from Vial isn't terrify.

Conclusion - Not good interaction.

GSZ + Confidant

This is very nice deck tech - changing avg mana cost in deck we still keeps consistance of creatures which can be tread for opponent - no more speech needed its very good.

So what to do ?

First answer yourself on one question - do you want more controlish version "Junk" like with discard or middle-range beatdown-GW/x Maverick is the second one..

Moxes are what we need - it's really good never think to not running them if we have confidants its speed up a lot - GSZ need mana - this basically brings creatures from library in the same cost as it would be in hand (Moxes) (but not more than 3).

3 Mox Diamond
3-4 Mother of Runes (we never want Bob died)
4 Dark Confidant
2-3 Stoneforge Mystic - those guys are really good - Fetching best Sword/Jitte on actual situation.
4 Knight of the Reliquary - maybe its crazy but I would think is we really need 4 of with GSZ and Dark Confidant
1 Tarmogoyf - single
4 Noble Hierarch - without vial its second one dude after mox which we want on starting hand u can also made 3-1 split with Birds sometimes Flying matter.
1-2 Scryb Ranger - this dude can be very good with Moxes we can bring unused land to discard it for moxes so more-more speed :]
4 StP - Obv
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoLS - I'm a big fan of this Sword - Swords to plowshares protection and unblock + 3 life on Bob is great in all Dark Horizons MU.
2 Qasali Pridemage - never run less than 2 - they're best in blind meta.

Ok That what u think is obv now let look at your questions:

Vial - We talked about upper

Mangara of Corondor is slow even with Vial its 4 turn - and waste unproof if you want to run pernament hate just run Vindicates much better and not needing Vial.

4 Vial and 4 Hierarch - I saw some build with it, everything fine but you run all your hand in first 3 turn having 1-2 mana drops and what next ? Lose - Overkill in my opinion.

Equip, Goyf, Stoneforge all good chooses also metion above vindicates as additional removal - that would be nice and feeds goyfs like in Junk.

More creatures chooses: Terravore - very good one of my favorite - wins KotRs war and also can't be chumped, Weathered Wayfarer - I played a lot of this guy and its good only in Vial build - without it its rather useless most good players just play over it.

Aven Mindcensor was good in Survival MU which lock them out a little, vs actual meta its rather poor - passing turn with 3 open mana is bad - it works only with Vial.

4th color is overkill - while u playing wasteland your mana base can be also nuked - remember it - more nonbasics - worst MU vs some random Blood Moon/B2B/Wastelands - Mox would help this problem.

Quirion Ranger is rather poor - Scryb have wings and blue protection can be very helpful (fishes, Vendilion Clique and etc) this one mana diffrence doesn't matter its supporter.

Elspeth - yes, yes, yes :) this should be run 1-2-of even with confidant. Flying to fly over walls and tox for all equips in control MU is what we need.

Sylvan Library - while runing Bob it would be nice but... it works in draw step so after confidants shows - this mean after every fetch your show blind card which isn't good, SDT would be better.

At the end time to count AVG in deck, and look how looks graphs then think is Vindicate fits it, count number of creatures u should have not less then 18-20.

If u want more controlish version with Vindicates, Hymn of Tourach, Thoughtseize look on Dark Horizons/Junk thread :)

I hope this post helps.

Greetings,

Fatal

Maëlig

04-27-2011, 02:38 PM

Feels like a pitty to run mox diamond but not wayfarer in the above decklist, especially in a 3 colors manabase. By the way, it looks like a lot of you are trying to go in different directions with this deck (which is good), and the first cut always seems to be wayfarer (which is maybe not so good). imo it's part of the core of the deck, and has become even more essential with the printing of GSZ and the future batterskull (fetch cradle, proceed to win). On this topic, am I the only one really excited with this new living equipment? Seems much better than SoLaS overall (which was already on the verge of leaving the deck imo). And the new clone gives us a very decent tutorable answer to progenitus, which is exactly what was missing in the SB. New Phyrexia will be good for this deck, especially if merfolk becomes more popular thanks to MM.

Regarding the primer, it's very good (and I'm glad someone finally wrote one), but I would disagree to elspeth x2 being part of the "core" of the deck. It pops up here and there, but a lot of lists don't run it. I would also have put the whole MoR playset in this core, and not scryb ranger (again, some lists don't run it).

On vial and GSZ not being great together : it's true. But I feel like the raw power of these two cards and their good interactions with the rest of the deck still mean it's viable to run them in the same list. As for the MD creature toolbox, I'd go with dyad, scryb (you don't need more than 1 if you run GSZ), teeg (if you see blue and it's not merfolk it's always a safe target g1) and RWM (against aggro). Possibly witness and goyf if you have the room (but be aware that you'll rarely want to tutor for goyf), but that's not indispensable. Better keep it tight instead of going cute (that's what... never mind).

Fatal

04-27-2011, 06:57 PM

New equipment looks quite nice, its good beater but having protection from white (mostly StP) and fetching discarded creature is very important in rock MU I would never cut SoLS.

Also one word about Gaea's Cradle - its win more card if u have so much creature that u fetching this land - its mean you win, but losing after drawing this land in control MU is a nightmare - trust me or not this deck doesn't need it. This conclusion comes to me after 20 games in one row vs landstill with tons of removal.

Next thing Scryb Ranger in new meta infested with merfolks is a god card - everytime you face Merfolks, Clique any wasteland - this card safe you day.

I wouldn't be so sure to fetching Gaddock Teeg as a rule - sometimes it will block you also, u have to guess vs what u playing and choose good target

Maëlig

04-27-2011, 08:06 PM

I wouldn't be so sure to fetching Gaddock Teeg as a rule - sometimes it will block you also, u have to guess vs what u playing and choose good target
Well, obviously. What I was saying referred to this scenario : you're playing g1 against an unknown opponent. 3rd turn (or 2nd with NH) you have GSZ in hand and you haven't seen anything besides blue lands and say, cantrips (or even a BoP/NH). My point was that you should probably go for teeg at this point. Worst case scenario he's playing a tempo deck and teeg will only stop FoW (which is always something). But since you're defenseless g1 vs storm combo and NO (and other stuff like sneak attack and humility) then that's the safe play, which could very well help you steal a game. Also, a lot of aggro-control blue decks run jace now, so it's rarely a very bad play anyways.

New equipment looks quite nice, its good beater but having protection from white (mostly StP) and fetching discarded creature is very important in rock MU I would never cut SoLS.
Batterskull is also very resilient to removal, actually. Even better : it comes back as a creature after a sweeper (even deed). vs aggro and vs control, batterskull > SoLaS, hands down. SoLaS might be marginally better in some rarer MUs like The Rock (and even then it depends, see deed), but that alone won't stop me from making the swap.

Also one word about Gaea's Cradle - its win more card if u have so much creature that u fetching this land - its mean you win, but losing after drawing this land in control MU is a nightmare - trust me or not this deck doesn't need it. This conclusion comes to me after 20 games in one row vs landstill with tons of removal.
That's just not true. I've experienced countless situations where I had a few creatures but a weak board (ie a combination of wayfarer, NH and rangers, typically), and where going for cradle to equip in the turn or GSZ into KotR saved my ass. There are other decks beside landstill in the metagame! That being said, if you don't play GSZ and don't plan to include batterskull (which, imho, would be a mistake), then I agree its inclusion is debatable.

Next thing Scryb Ranger in new meta infested with merfolks is a god card - everytime you face Merfolks, Clique any wasteland - this card safe you day.
True, but we already have a good MU vs merfolk without it, so it's a moot point. I still like the card (a lot), don't get me wrong, there are just times when you'd rather have something a bit more beefy to put on the board, and it's pretty horrible to draw into multiples. That's why it's an ideal GSZ target imo.

Fatal

04-28-2011, 06:26 AM

That's just not true. I've experienced countless situations where I had a few creatures but a weak board (ie a combination of wayfarer, NH and rangers, typically), and where going for cradle to equip in the turn or GSZ into KotR saved my ass. There are other decks beside landstill in the metagame! That being said, if you don't play GSZ and don't plan to include batterskull (which, imho, would be a mistake), then I agree its inclusion is debatable.

That's the differences:

Simple:
If you playing Vial, Wayfarer - Cradle is must include
If you are playing without Vial and Wayfarer - Cradle is win more card and sometimes - I lose.

Last word about Battleskull it looks promising but also heavy mana invested testing shows its useful.

Bzka

05-27-2011, 10:15 AM

Hi,

as i dont want this thread to die, i will post my post-NPH List :) (not including Mental Misstep).

Turn 3 SFM into Batterskull can really be a house against Aggro Decks, it improved my matchup against Rb Goblins as Perish becomes less devastating.

Has anyone tried Aven Mindcensor? He got disruption and evasion but he's white, so you cant do GSZ into him, which means you need 2-3 copies.

Any sort of criticism is welcome :)

Maëlig

05-27-2011, 06:20 PM

Nice list, although I don't like batterskull in builds without vial and wayfarer (+cradle). The reason being you can't eot SFM for safety or cast batterskull if you have it in hand. If the opponent destroys SFM when it still has summoning sickness, or even detroys the germ token, you're left with a big uncastable piece of junk. Also, you have less need for punch in GSZ lists compared to vial + wayfarer ones, where batterskull really shines.

Imo you're going too far in the GSZ toolbox. You need to think which creatures you'll really want to tutor regularly, and if it's worth the rick of topdecking them when you don't. I woul cut finks and the creature flex slot, and also 1 or 2 qasali (it's pretty useless in certain MUs, and you always have GSZ if you really need it). Mindcensor has been great, I now play 3 in my GSZ build. It helps you in the hardest MUs (NO, storm combo, loam decks, ...) and also in mirror-type decks (seems like everyone is playing knight, GSZ, and to a lesser extent SFM nowadays). But of course it's a gamble, since it will be near useless in certain MUs, like TA.

bracer028

05-27-2011, 07:04 PM

how does this deck fare against dredge and combos

Snief

05-27-2011, 07:50 PM

Depends on your build and how fast they are. I think Dredge is even or slightly in our favor. Storm is in their favor, but you can win. Imo it's important to start of with a Hierarch, followed up by Gaddock/GSZ into Gaddock/Aven Mindcensor.

Slate-

05-27-2011, 08:36 PM

Here's the list I've been testing based off the primer and other lists. I like rafiq, he's been useful, the rhox hasn't come out yet. So you guys might be right about him, he might be better off as something else.

Your list looks nice, but I don't like Rafiq/Rhox War Monk in there. On the other hand, it looks like a pretty straight foward list...how has been Mirran Crusader for you?

I dropped rhox, i kept Rafiq in. I like having a tutorable 4 drop. I like mirran, but I dropped it to go with serra avenger. I like the evasion more than I like the double strike. I also dropped the sword of light and shadow for a batterskull, along with 4 SFM.

bracer028

05-29-2011, 08:21 PM

I think stoneforge can be taken out from here. It's probably better to just draw the equipment than to fetch it out. That gives us 3 free spots for more beaters.

Exalted seems to be the main win condition.

Slate-

05-31-2011, 12:38 PM

I disagree, I think that stoneforge warrants a spot, her utility is invaluable.

I also added mirran back, he can just outright win some games (team america being one of them) if he lands.

Fatal

06-01-2011, 11:08 AM

Looks like Primer goes to DTB - that's good news.

For questions about Stoneforge Mystic - its MUST have in all G/W/x in number of 2-3. This deck doesn't generate CA such as Jace for example, we can only use Dark Confidant (in some builds) or Sylvan Library. Our late game is resolved one of the Swords/Jitte + Eternal Witness which is very useful when graveyards are full of nuts.

Actually think about Thrun, the Last Troll in slot of one Goyf/Qasali Pridemage since U/w Landstills become much more popular. This MU isn't so good because U/w Landstill has much more stable Manabase than BUG landstill so cutting their mana base with tempo (mostly KotR / Wastelands from hand/ sb Life from the Loam) isn't good option. Still testing Troll but in other MU I was disappointed with him.

Cards to testing:
Battleskull - still not great but can be switched in War Rhox Monk Slot - more test needed
Thrun, the Last Troll - very good in Landstill U/w MU, also quite nice in heavy removal MU, but to slow for faster decks
Serenity - if u suspect Enchantress / Stax its card must have on big tournaments can be in Null Rod slot.
Life from the Loam - mostly debatable slot here - works on some random MU with and destroy MU, also vs tricolor controls, works also vs mostly tempo decks without basics.

I tend to run 1 RWM in the sideboard as the "green guy to fetch with GSZ that gains life" slot. However, you bring a good point about Batterskull essentially going the same thing, but better. I'll test this puppy out; although I do admit, it's tougher to evaluate because RWM can oftentimes come out Turn 2 - not nearly the case with Batterskull.

That being said, I would run either as a one-of, and Batterskull may end up being a better fit for that slot, since it's also really good against Control, whereas RWM is only good against aggro.

What about Loaming Shaman as a means to recycling Wastelands and Horizon Canopies back in for KotR, in place of 1 of the Life from the Loam? It also serves to help out against g/y based decks, and tutorable via GSZ.

Bzka

06-01-2011, 12:25 PM

List looks fine. Did you cut 3 Mom's for the Mental Misstep? In fact they do nearly the same thing which is preventing StoP(removal in general) and Lackeys(otp). In these cases MMS works way better as it doesnt have summoner sickness.
But especially when your playing Rafiq, pumping up a Knight and giving him Exalted + Doublestrike and then giving it protection via Mother is a gamewining play. I would go with 2-3 Mom's and 3 MMS and cut the singleton Scrybranger as you dont draw him that often and most of the time you cannot afford to do GSZ into Ranger, plus he gets worse with no Mom's.
You forgot the Wastelands btw :)

SuperProxy

06-01-2011, 02:04 PM

has anyone tried implementing Beast Within in the deck? seems good dealing with alot of planeswalkers in the current jace heavy meta

Death & Taxes is much more different archetype than Maverick actually.

@SuperProxy
Beast Within is a good card but only in specify MU, that's why this card is a better oblivion ring on sideboard but not always (vs S&T decks for example) as catch' all answer. U almost never want that card vs aggro MU with fast clock because of card disadvantage - putting an other Nacatl into play isn't good option. I think more tests are needed but probably its good card in sb.

@Bzka
Yes I cut 2 Mother of Runes and one Bird of Paradise (from my earlier list) and implement 3 Mental Misstep - and they're great, it can be use as anti-StP and also as Tempo card - countering first drops, discard etc, Mother was Nuts vs aggro MU but it was so-so vs all landstills/Deeds and awful vs combo.

Mental Misstep makes Combo MU winable with Gaddock Teeg MD.

Mostly Terravore is a killer with Rafiq, Mother helps your right but i cut it bacause of MM which are annoying vs StP, first turn mana drop - so just playing my own.

I would never cut Scryb Ranger in so heavy U meta, its great Jace killer, Merfolks Nightmare, and pseudo vigilance with any other beater, anti-wasteland surprise, mana ramp and actually only one real flyer in deck (Elspeth)

@rukcus

About Battleskull vs RWM its all dependent about MU where we want life gainer.

Mostly lifegainer is needed in aggro MU, and Burn where your life matter (also ANT).

Battleskull is slow - even with first turn drop (Hierarch/GSZ for arbor) u can't cast Battleskull in first two turns, so u attack in 4th turn, vs burn it can be just too late. Next MU is Zoo where your life matter - Battleskull can be killed by Qasali Pridemage which is natural enemy for it, next think Battleskull need SFM in play for whole turn this mean that smart burn/zoo player just kill it before u can put Battleskull into play.

All this brings that Battleskull is much worst than RWM, but there is other side of view - heavy removal Control MU where your life doesn't matter but your CA matter - here it shine in long play where you have a lot of mana and can use its bounce ability. The choose is yours actually I use RWM and other game plan vs heavy removal MU.

Loaming Shaman was cut from sideboard since I test a lot of games vs Dredge - mostly I like crypt on instant speed hate - Shaman is just to slow - fetching creature 3cc always KotR will be better, recycling wastelands/canopies from KotR is marginal, mostly after 4 wastelands/2 canopies its gg from one side - so it doesn't help.

Fry

06-01-2011, 06:39 PM

@ Fatal
then why even bother mentioning D&T in the primer?

Tao

06-01-2011, 07:29 PM

Cool to see GW go to DTB. That GW Survival went a long way.

Mother of Runes: She belongs in the deck, four times. You should start cutting other cards - even StoPs or Noble Hierarchs - if you are worried about your curve getting too low before touching her. You can side her out against E.Ex. / Deed / Wrath decks but against everything else she is the best. Against Zoo style aggro she is a blocker for one Mana, against both Tribal decks she is the complete and total nuts, in the Aggro Control mirror she draws either draws early Removal or dominates the board and against Combo she protects your hatebear(s) from their few solutions.

Gaea's Cradle: Play one of them because of SFM. The upside of equipping and smashing via Cradle Mana with Jitte or even a Sword on the same turn you played the SFM is far bigger than the downside of having a bad land sometimes. Usually it is a good draw anyway.

Fatal

06-02-2011, 06:11 AM

@Fry

All D&T deck is from definition Mono W, Maverick is GW/x, putting package Mangara + Karakas doesn't make this deck D&T it has other strategy plan plan and clock, even other colors, its like naming decks Mono U control when it has 4 x FoW + 4 brainstorm which is mistake I think. It was mention in primer because I met this version which was similar to Living & Taxes, but this deck had long way of evolution to actual build, better make steps forward, than back right ?

@Tao

Your right about Mother of Runes in middle aggro MU its nuts, but actually MU makes her much worst. Mental Missteps are everywhere, also Landstills with Merfolks we still have very good MU vs Goblins I rather have Mental Missteps than Mom. After a lot of testing any good player can kill Mom on block in resp to giving protection. Versus Metalworker, Grindstone Painter, Affnity its just 1/1 guy for 1 mana which is rather poor. I cut her and putting tempo cards which have similar role. I think this card is MU dependent and also skill intensive in opponent, if he can't handle it u can win also without it. I just think that making bigger clock > protection.

Gaea's Cradle was discussed a lot here, I can judge this card only from mine side of view and I think its just win more card when u have such a big table to take advantage from cradle you mostly already win,but losing in control MU having land which can do nothing is very bad - so win more in my eyes (I was playing it for about 2 months) - also this card works better mostly only with Vial Build, when u have little mana on table.

Kellyx

06-02-2011, 08:35 AM

Maverick with MMS looks like aggro bant=)
Just add a few dazes and a pack of brainstorms.
I cant even understand how come that these decks are different archetypes.

Fatal

06-02-2011, 01:04 PM

Main difference - It doesn't have Islands so no Islandwalk for Merfolks - easy MU for us.

Slate-

06-02-2011, 05:18 PM

Cool to see GW go to DTB. That GW Survival went a long way.

Mother of Runes: She belongs in the deck, four times. You should start cutting other cards - even StoPs or Noble Hierarchs - if you are worried about your curve getting too low before touching her. You can side her out against E.Ex. / Deed / Wrath decks but against everything else she is the best. Against Zoo style aggro she is a blocker for one Mana, against both Tribal decks she is the complete and total nuts, in the Aggro Control mirror she draws either draws early Removal or dominates the board and against Combo she protects your hatebear(s) from their few solutions.

Gaea's Cradle: Play one of them because of SFM. The upside of equipping and smashing via Cradle Mana with Jitte or even a Sword on the same turn you played the SFM is far bigger than the downside of having a bad land sometimes. Usually it is a good draw anyway.

I agree with both of these points. I tried to cut mother down to 3 from 4, only to realize just how often she makes a difference. She is a great 1 drop that does a lot for this deck. I also like gaea's cradle enough that I put one in. It's not as if i'm searching for with reliquary or anything, but sometimes the mana ramp can lead to some explosive turns. Almost never a dead card, and at worst it's wasteland fodder.

I have also cut all blue from the deck. In my opinion it doesn't do enough for this deck's game plan. We also don't gain any valuable sideboard answers for including the small splash. If you need the lifegain from rhox, it can be a batterskull.

deviant

06-02-2011, 06:50 PM

Cradle gets a lot better once you finally put batterskull in the deck, maybe it is even worth a slot then.
(22nd land, as it's not a land when you most need them)

Tao

06-03-2011, 04:48 AM

Batterskull belongs in the deck if you do the SFM build, that is quite clear, at least imo. But even before Batterskull was printed Cradle was awesome in builds with 4 SFM and 4 KotR. With an active KotR in play Cradle often enables you to play a topdecked SFM + Sword/Jitte + Equip + attack in the same turn.

@Fatal: Mental Missteps do not make Mother of Runes worse. You want to play a one-drop on turn one anyway so it doesn't matter which one of them they counter. The skill argument is also flawed. Against bad players she might be even better but that doesn't mean that she is not also good against good players. No matter how much skill they have they can't Sword your Reliquary or Stoneforge or the creature you want to equip if you have a Mother of Runes in play.

Fatal

06-03-2011, 06:34 AM

Maybe your right guys, my playtest group become too controlish that's why i still fill better with made changes, that's why Cradle and Mother lost a slot in my build.

lorddotm

06-03-2011, 02:45 PM

I guess this goes here. No I haven't read the thread. I still don't know why I bothered thinking about a GW Aggro deck, but alas here it goes:

Similar to the old G/W Survival decks, it should beat Zoo and stuff by having more Stoneforges and Goyfs than they have.

I might move the Jötun to the main, dropping a Pridemage. He gives you insane inevitability with Fauna Shaman. I haven't tested the list, but I definitely like how it looks. The SB Missteps are for Control (counters Snare and Swords) and Combo (slows them down enough for us to land a hate bear).

The Vengevine version is pretty good in the Meta because without Vengies I would not want to play against any Landstill variant. Your list is quite good I would say. You don't need Maze of Ith, it gets used far too rarely for a land that never produces Mana. I would recommend the Jitte in its slot. It is good vs. all Aggro but also your best Equipment vs. Painterstone.

The Vengevine version is pretty good in the Meta because without Vengies I would not want to play against any Landstill variant. Your list is quite good I would say. You don't need Maze of Ith, it gets used far too rarely for a land that never produces Mana. I would recommend the Jitte in its slot. It is good vs. all Aggro but also your best Equipment vs. Painterstone.

What are you talking about, a format full of SFM and I want to take OUT the best answer to Swords/Jittes?

This list has actually been insane in the few games I've tested. Rapes creature decks.

Tao

06-03-2011, 08:57 PM

I said your list was good ;)
But with 3 Mother of Runes and 2 Qasali Pridemagess as well as 4 Fauna Shaman and 4 GSZ to tutor Qasalis you shouldn't be overly worried about Equipment. Maze and the second Rootwalla are easily saved slot in the long run.

Slate-

06-03-2011, 09:38 PM

Gaea's cradle, I can see not making it in, but I could never take out maze of ith. That card does so much for this deck. It pretty much goes hand in hand with KotR. In some decks its pretty much my only toolbox.

lorddotm

06-03-2011, 10:28 PM

I said your list was good ;)
But with 3 Mother of Runes and 2 Qasali Pridemagess as well as 4 Fauna Shaman and 4 GSZ to tutor Qasalis you shouldn't be overly worried about Equipment. Maze and the second Rootwalla are easily saved slot in the long run.

I agree with Slate- here.

Also, if I was overly worried about the Painter match up, I would throw Emrakul and Loyal Retainers in the board. Jitte might be the best equipment against Painter, but I definitely don't think Jitte is good against Painter, as it is extremely slow. I would rather rely on Pridemages, Wastelands, and Swords than getting Jitte online.

The second Rootwalla would be the first card out of the deck.

Tao

06-05-2011, 04:59 AM

Yeah, those cards are better if you draw them, but you gotta work with what you have. Cutting Jitte in GW is just flat out bad.
For the Equipment slot I think there is one correct setup atm and that is 4 Stoneforge, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull and 1 Sword of Body and Mind. Not playing at least those seven would be a mistake.
I have it from PV's article on channelfireball why to play SoBaM, like 99.9% of the time he is right. It lets you attack through Goyfs and KotRs and gives you a chump blocker for their big guy.This works out quite well and protection from Merfolk and Jace is a nice bonus. SoLaS was never good for me and SoFaI is worse because there is much less red than green.

Slate-

06-05-2011, 04:53 PM

SoFaI still has the best ability of any of the swords. Especially when it's on a creature like mirran, giving him protection from everything but white (sadly).

Tao

06-05-2011, 05:12 PM

Yeah, that is true. Playing an additional target for SFM is okay. Some prefer SoFaI for the value, some like SoLaS for the colors.
But not playing all 4 SFM plus Skull, SoBaM and Jitte seems like a mistake to me.

Morte

06-07-2011, 05:49 AM

In the end I found all kinds of splash not worthy, so I came back to straight GW. This allows to play a full package of Horizon Canopy, great with KoR and to smooth the deck. With 4 GSZ, Hierarchs and Cradle it’s common to have a lot of mana, the ideal situation to profit your Canopies.

The list is very solid. I really like the Mirran Crusaders. With exalted and equipments they do crazy shenanigans, an equipped Crusader is usually GG: I never missed Rafiq.
The full package of MoR serves well the equipment strategy, they’re never dead.

My 2 cent about the equipment debate. The point is that you always want to see one, while two or more are usually dead early game. I used to play Faerie Stompy, a deck packing 6-8 equipments: its main problem was consistency. The high number of equipments was one of the causes, too often you had too many dead ones.

That’s one of the reason why SFM is so damn good. She tutors for the equipment you want AND she is a creature: at worst, you can equip herself.

In my testing, the best compromise between versatility and consistency is 3 SFM + the 3 consolidated must-have (Jitte, SoFI and SoLS). I don’t think you need the new swords, they’re a bit underpowered and the pros in versatility don’t value the cons of increasing the number of equipments.

Batterskull is another story. It’s extremely valuable in certain matchups, even if slow without SFM. In the end I chose not to maindeck it for the sake of consistency, but it’s more a meta choice. Jitte, SoFI, SoLS and Batterskull is a strong configuration for sure.

Barnie25

06-07-2011, 01:00 PM

I've been eying this deck for quite some time now and comparing deck lists with eachother and this one really apeals to me. My question was what were your main reason for not playing a No Pro package as many other ones do.

Morte

06-07-2011, 02:08 PM

I've been eying this deck for quite some time now and comparing deck lists with eachother and this one really apeals to me. My question was what were your main reason for not playing a No Pro package as many other ones do.

More or less the same reason why I don’t run Batterskull – consistency.

The best shell to run the NO-Pro package is something like Bant GSZ. Here, we have

- no counter to protect your NO

- no way to reshuffle Pro if you draw it

Moreover, against decks with tempo package or Junk it’s not always easy to reach 4 mana – note that I cut everything but Elspeth with a cost greater than 3.

The deck has already plenty of crazy powerful combos by playing all-around reliable cards only.

If you want a 2-card coolness consider SFM + Batterskull before NO-Pro. It costs one slot only, fits perfectly the shell of the deck (SFM equipment strategy with MoR to protect SFM) and in the worst case it’s just slow, not totally dead.

It’s a matter of taste; personally, I think that choosing cool things over consistency is more or less like valuing fun over probability to win.

Koby

06-07-2011, 02:47 PM

I don't think Batterskull fits into "fun vs win%". It actually helps the deck much better than Sword of Light and Shadow for the MD. It also single-handedly beats Merfolk without much effort, and that's not to be dismissed. (Jitte on the same token, requires some careful maneuvering and judicious use of -1/1 effects)

My list is nearly identical to Fatal's listed above, with a few random green dorks cut to go for 4 SFM. I think this move is a no-brainer considering how powerful equipment is to this strategy.

Barnie25

06-07-2011, 02:49 PM

The consistency argument I can understand, but isnt a second jitte or batterskull better than the SoLaS or is it rand for its color combi and whats your take on summoning trap sb as a weapon against t1 missteps?

Barnie25

06-07-2011, 03:00 PM

I don't think Batterskull fits into "fun vs win%". It actually helps the deck much better than Sword of Light and Shadow for the MD. It also single-handedly beats Merfolk without much effort, and that's not to be dismissed. (Jitte on the same token, requires some careful maneuvering and judicious use of -1/1 effects)

My list is nearly identical to Fatal's listed above, with a few random green dorks cut to go for 4 SFM. I think this move is a no-brainer considering how powerful equipment is to this strategy.

Playing batterskull over the solas is a no brainer indeed as many decks go down when facing one but isnt the thought of running a mirran crusader so far fetched maybe instead of rafiq. Noble into crusader into turn 3 elspeth pumping your crusader to a 6/6 double strike flying isnt all that bad.

Koby

06-07-2011, 03:50 PM

Playing batterskull over the solas is a no brainer indeed as many decks go down when facing one but isnt the thought of running a mirran crusader so far fetched maybe instead of rafiq. Noble into crusader into turn 3 elspeth pumping your crusader to a 6/6 double strike flying isnt all that bad.

Turn 2 KotR/Crusader are both fast clocks. Crusader is a solid answer to black based removal too, but stills gets plowed. The only selling point for SoLaS is providing protection from both black and white removal, and allowing recursion. The latter is useful with Qasali Pridemages against the mirrors too.

On that note, I think in this metagame trying to maximize Pridemages is the right call. When I played over the weekend, 4 out of the 6 matches I played feature equipment wars.

lorddotm

06-07-2011, 04:06 PM

Turn 2 KotR/Crusader are both fast clocks. Crusader is a solid answer to black based removal too, but stills gets plowed. The only selling point for SoLaS is providing protection from both black and white removal, and allowing recursion. The latter is useful with Qasali Pridemages against the mirrors too.

On that note, I think in this metagame trying to maximize Pridemages is the right call. When I played over the weekend, 4 out of the 6 matches I played feature equipment wars.

Thats why you have to play 4 Zenith, 4 Fauna, and 2 Pridemage. You have to find them some how.

Koby

06-07-2011, 04:10 PM

The point is rather that you should play more Pridemages (who can provide Exalted) rather than GSZ/Fauna Shaman for them in a clutch spot. I can't begin to describe my horrible mana luck with this deck in the past week, but drawing one naturally is almost always preferred to the reactionary tutoring. It's also cheaper on the mana cost. (compare :1::g::w: to :3::g: or :1::g::g::w:)

Philipp2293

06-07-2011, 04:53 PM

I'm gonna run a build close to Morte's tomorrow, but I'm afraid it's close to impossible to have a good MU against UW LS ( I ran a build tailored to beat control in my last tourney and got my face grinded in). Maybe I should just give up on this MU, or does anyone have any ideas?

Koby

06-07-2011, 04:59 PM

Against UW Landstill, you might want to consider a man-land or two. Stirring Wilderness wouldn't be a bad idea (but it might not be good enough still).

You pretty much want to resolve Elspeth in these control matchups.

HPB_Eggo

06-07-2011, 05:12 PM

This list is a tad different than some of the other ones here, but it follows the same vein. I've been seriously considering cutting the blue splash recently, but it tends to work quite well for me, as it's very rare that I'm forced to play one of my Tropical Islands against Merfolk, which is the only match-up that suffers heavily from the splash.

The deck's a bit slower than other lists here, but it tends to work out for me, especially with Mental Misstep included. If you haven't tried it, I strongly suggest that you do, it's a great card.

The SB is kind of thrown together, but it also tends to work fairly well for me. Suggestions on that are especially welcome, if you have any.

Philipp2293

06-07-2011, 05:15 PM

Sorry, but I really don't like 2 Moms, it's just too random, especially in a equipment heavy list like yours ( I also wonder about only 2 Mystics) you want the maximum number of Mothers.

HPB_Eggo

06-07-2011, 05:25 PM

Sorry, but I really don't like 2 Moms, it's just too random, especially in a equipment heavy list like yours ( I also wonder about only 2 Mystics) you want the maximum number of Mothers.

The problem isn't that I don't want more Mother of Runes, it's mostly what I would have to cut for them.

Looking critically, the only cards I would consider cutting would be everything in the blue splash (Rhox War Monk and Trygon Predator, probably going down to 20 lands and up to 3 Qasali Pridemages), one of the Scryb Rangers, the Sylvan Libraries, or the Sword of Feast and Famine. What would you advise to test cutting first?

In addition, the Mental Missteps, Swords, Batterskull, and Mirran Crusader are all rather good at dealing with removal on their own, so Mother of Runes is generally an added bonus, not a necessity. Just something to consider.

As for Stoneforge Mystic, I have never been in favor of playing more than three in a list like this. Still, if you'd like to suggest a third card to cut, I'd be open to testing it. Might end up better, might not.

Thank you for the feedback.

Philipp2293

06-07-2011, 05:33 PM

The most potencial I see for making cuts in your list would be the 4th hierarch ( you still have 8 T1 manadork plays, I can agree with the 3/1 split on birds and hierarch) and possibly the sword of feast and famine or the RWM, which isn't needed IMO.

While the missteps take care of CC 1 removal, you also have to keep in mind that MoM might be needed to connect with an equipped dork, allowing you to swing the game. Or prevent Jace from bouncing one of your guys. Also T1 mom helps against fast aggro decks where equipment might be too slow.

How has the predator been treating you so far?

Tao

06-07-2011, 05:37 PM

@HPB: lol no Dryad Arbor. You guys should really just stop spamming lists from the top of your head that you never even played with and then argue that these "work out for you". 20 mana producing lands (including 4 Wastelands) is a joke. Same with Lordot. He even says that he never tested with it and then refuses to take advice. The only tested list on the last pages is Mortes (though I disagree with Maze and Equipment choices). 4 MoR, 2 Elspeth and the GSZ tutor package tell me that we had similar test results.

HPB_Eggo

06-07-2011, 06:01 PM

The most potencial I see for making cuts in your list would be the 4th hierarch ( you still have 8 T1 manadork plays, I can agree with the 3/1 split on birds and hierarch) and possibly the sword of feast and famine or the RWM, which isn't needed IMO.

Fairly well. Very good in some match-ups, very poor in others. At the very least, it always has evasion and can eat equipment, which seems to be infesting Legacy at the moment.

@HPB: lol no Dryad Arbor.

Dryad Arbor is generally good in only one situation - the one where you need to ramp up into three mana on turn two and have no Birds or Hierarch in your hand.

Beyond that, it's not especially useful. I could see cutting it, but it would have to be for another land.

You guys should really just stop spamming lists from the top of your head that you never even played with and then argue that these "work out for you". 20 mana producing lands (including 4 Wastelands) is a joke. Same with Lordot. He even says that he never tested with it and then refuses to take advice. The only tested list on the last pages is Mortes (though I disagree with Maze and Equipment choices). 4 MoR, 2 Elspeth and the GSZ tutor package tell me that we had similar test results.

You, friend, need to stop being so aggressive. You have no idea how much testing I've done with this list, and just because it doesn't have similar results as your own does not make it wrong.

You can either attempt to be constructive in some way, or I can ignore you as you continue to troll. I don't particularly care which, but I would hope you do.

Tao

06-07-2011, 06:49 PM

I have nothing constructive to say about about a list with 4 GSZ and 0 Dryad Arbor. It just makes no sense.

Guy I Don't Know

06-07-2011, 07:01 PM

My opinion is that ramping up to three mana with GSZ-->Dryad arbor is great and is worth it. It makes GSZ mana or threat, which increases the consistency of the deck.

Jonathan Alexander

06-07-2011, 07:07 PM

Sorry, but Tao is absolutely right. You really want to have Arbor when running a full set of Zeniths; and you probably should even run it with only three Zeniths. Further, you're running way too few lands. My current list runs 23 lands including four Wastelands, four Horizon Canopies and Singletons of Dryad Arbor and Maze Of Ith. That list is running really well right now, my girlfriend and I are gauntlet-testing it and I'm really impressed by the results.
What I can definitely advocate is running Batterskull and a full set of Stoneforge Mystics. Stoneforge Mystic plus Wasteland is just really really strong. What I'm also doing right now is trying out more copies of Terravore, that seems pretty good. These might as well be Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Mirran Crusader though. I'm also looking to test Sylvan Library, seems good.

Koby

06-07-2011, 08:00 PM

I'm lead to believe that when running Sylvan Library, Batterskull is very heavily desired in the equipment package. Being able to cheat out extra cards from all the life gain with Batterskull may appear as win-more, but every single card makes the difference between winning and losing.

I too agree that playing more lands is desirable. I've come to the conclusion during testing that Tundra has no place in the deck - it can't produce green mana and eats up a land slot. On a similar note, Misty Rainforest is also really really bad as a fetchland for the deck. I have swapped it for a white-Fetcher, as getting the basic Plains is highly valuable with cards such as Elspeth in the deck. I'm possibly thinking that no blue dual lands are needed at all - they end up being a liability more often than being useful to cast Mental Misstep. I even have a blue card SB in my Etutor-board plan to find Energy Flux (btw, highly recommended - it answers Affinity which would otherwise run us over)

I only ever search out Tropical Island if I anticipate sacrificing it to KotR within 1 turn, otherwise it's a wash.

HPB_Eggo

06-07-2011, 09:02 PM

I have nothing constructive to say about about a list with 4 GSZ and 0 Dryad Arbor. It just makes no sense.

And this would be my fault, because there is supposed to be a Dryad Arbor in that list. Not sure where it went.

You can kind of tell when I was talking about how it might be worth cutting, but I suppose we both did a little fail on reading comprehension there.

lilrikki2000

06-08-2011, 04:19 AM

for those who play the slight blue splash with their e-tutor package, do you find energy flux better than serenity?

Barnie25

06-08-2011, 04:53 AM

I've been tinkering on a list and came to the conclusion that Fatal's list is a pretty good reverence to start off with. Having this in mind I started to cumstomize it to my own preferences and came up with this:

-The reason I cut my second goyf is because unlike most bluebased decks our goyf never seems to reach full status on it's own and there for is only good in certain MU's.

-The same goes for the Gaddock Teeg, having this one on the side should probably enough, all though GSZ for a teeg with misstep back up is certainly nice. This play is very crucial in our combo MU as they run chain of vapors MB.

-My personal favorite is Batterskull, this for all the obvious reasons. It's an All-Star against aggro matchups and in the late game it can provide you with a nice string of blockers or attackers, depending on what role it must take on.

-The third Mystic is mainly because it's not a GSZ target, therefor 3 copies of it are a must to my standards.

-Having two copies of Sylvan Library in combination with a RWM and Batterskull let's you draw more cards without real loss of life. In other situations it just provides you with extra depth and keeps a steady string of juice flowing.

In this list I've opted not to play MoR, in other lists I did ran them. For those who've tested more than me, I know run Missteps in her slots and reckon them to be a crucial part of our deck in the new metagame. But isn't the loss of MoR hard felt?

Morte

06-08-2011, 05:04 AM

I don't think Batterskull fits into "fun vs win%". It actually helps the deck much better than Sword of Light and Shadow for the MD.

I need some explanation here. In my testing, the effects of SoLS are the most desirable against Zoo. Life gain can really save your life and you always have small critters in the yard to recur.

Batterskull, if resolved, would be even better: but it’s really hard to resolve it with SFM, i.e. before it’s (too) late.

In my experience, Zoo has so many removals that my SFM is almost always fried immediately (and I play 4 MoR).

Maybe with Mental Misstep the situation is a little better, but I can’t believe you’re consistently able to resolve your Butterskull in time.

It also single-handedly beats Merfolk without much effort, and that's not to be dismissed.

True, but my Merfolk metchup is very easy without Batterskull too.

In which matchups do you find Batterskull making the difference?

The only tested list on the last pages is Mortes (though I disagree with Maze and Equipment choices).

Thanks Tao, why do you disagree with the Maze?

And what's your SFM/equipment configuration?

I’d greatly appreciate to know your equipment strategy for the various matchups.

abel_lg

06-08-2011, 12:00 PM

IMHO, about equipment I don't understand people who package other Swords than F&I or L&S with Jitte and/or Batterskull (I mean switching F&I and/or L&S for B&M and/or F&F/W&P). Yes, protection from green is awesome to attack a big dude, yes, putting a 2/2 bear or specially untap all our lands is marvellous, but I found best the critter-recursion of SoLaS as Morte said, even a Qasali (always useful giving one more exalted trigger) a Knight... or also I prefer the abilities of SoFaI (also protect a Mirran from red bolt or blue bouncing is awesome letting Misstep for possible StoP/Path). From the newer swords, I like a lot the War and Peace protections (not so the abilities).

I know Gaddock is sometimes a dead card in some MU, but I prefer a dead card than no solutions to combo in 1st game.

I also want to test Terravore, seems cool with GSZ, but I'm not sure about including Rafiq to my list.

Nik842

06-08-2011, 12:26 PM

I'm really glad to see the thread, and that it's a DTB. I was actually looking to build a new deck a while ago and decided on a GW agro deck. A friend of mine pointed out the topic and mentioned that I had a lot of the core deck and to look through this thread.
My original deck was pretty good, a lot better than any of my previous deck. I haven't done too much testing with it, but the testing I did do showed me that the deck had potential and was really fun to play. I also never really finished that deck, I kept playing around with proxies to see what would work.

Like I said, it wasn't a complete list, and I can't remember what I used for proxies. But after reading through here and seeing everyone's take on the deck and their deck list, I've retooled mine to look like this: (still not complete, not sure what to put in)

So, as you see my MD has only 57 total, I know I need at least 1 more equipment, though I'm not sure which one. I'm leaning torwards either SoFaI or SoLaS. I also know that I'm not running any copies of Stoneforge Mystic, I kind of want to try it out without her and see how it fairs.

Other than that, any comments would be greatly appreciated on either the MD or SB.

Tao

06-08-2011, 12:27 PM

My current Equipment pack is SoBaM, Jitte and Batterskull. But I guess with Mirran Crusader Pro: Green is less needed. For me SoLaS is not doing anything 2/3 of the time, but some people seem dead set on it so I won't argue.
Vs. Zoo it isn't bad if they kill SFM right away and you don't get to play Batterskull for cheap. Just calcalute that into your game plan when you tutor for it tol buy some time because they have to spend their main phase killing your guy instead of playing their undercosted guys.
I do not like Maze because it is a bad draw that you can easily do without. It is 100% dead vs. both Combo and Control and only useful against Aggro decks when enough things come together: you are in the defense, you have too much Mana and they have a big attacker. Also those decks usually play Wasteland anyway so it is not very realiable. Only with Affinity in the Meta I would play it.

I cut Teeg from the Maindeck, too. It meddles with your own Zenith's and Elspeth's which often enough hurts you more than your opponents. It is also not good enough against BUG Jacestill because of Deed. On top of that it doesn't even do much against the most popular Combo decks: Painterstone doesn't care and Hive Mind can still Show and Tell into Hive Mind which is their preferred win against GW anyway.

Morte

06-08-2011, 12:38 PM

Totally agree on Teeg.

So you play 3 SFM + 1x SoBaM, Jitte and Batterskull? I'd like to see your list for reference.

Tao

06-08-2011, 01:27 PM

4 SFM. It is maybe the best card atm so I wouldn't play less than that.

there's 2 cards I can't remember at this point - I'll update this when I look at my list. This is highly tailored towards my metagame - Landstill, Equipment decks, and Combo. Qasali Pridemage in the board is #4 in the 75, and brought in against Affinity, Enchantress, and the mirror. Energy Flux is supported by 1 Tropical Island and 4 Hierarchs in the maindeck, and is necessary to beat Affinity; who otherwise run us over with swarms+Plating. Oblivion Ring is double purpose against both Planeswalker control decks and Emrakul style decks, but also useful against Batterskulls. It's a tutorable catch-all.

I'm starting to think that maybe Life from the Loam wouldn't be a bad idea against the Landstill decks too.

Tao

06-08-2011, 01:54 PM

If you find room for Choke or if the Meta is that way then Choke is very good. But I don't side E. Tutor vs. blue noncombo decks so a 1-off wouldn't help much. The SB is very hard to build. I'd also like Mindcensors and tons of other stuff.

- I think at least 1 Bird is justified, I want to stuff as much evasion into the deck as possible.
- Gaea's Cradle is a must as it stands. It saved my ass a few times when I went Mystic, cast equipment and swing.
- I think I will test a second scryb ranger, but I'm not too sure what to cut.
- Batterskull didn't have much impact today.

Barnie25

06-08-2011, 06:04 PM

First off congrats on your win.

I have a couple of questions for you regarding your list.

-Did you ever missed not playing Mental Misstep?
-How did the Batterskull faired for you in the long haul?

Slate-

06-08-2011, 07:28 PM

It looks like a lot of people have been going in the same direction as me with this deck. Here is my list as of current.

I am not entirely sold on batterskull maindeck. Yes, it is a tutorable threat with stoneforge, and yes it gains life; it just seems that everytime i get it out that it is win more. I was at 4 mother of runes, but the space in this deck is so tight, that I sadly had to drop it again. I would like to make room for another qasali main deck but I just don't know what to cut for it. Perhaps an avenger. I just like that a majority of my threats have evasion. I find that when you get down to attrition, cards with evasion are usually the decider. The only real reason I even run a goyf in this list is for a tutorable 2 drop outside of qasali. It has crossed my mind to cut him, but he is the best pound for pound fighter in legacy.

Questions -

Those who I see with thrun maindeck, does your testing merit his inclusion? or is that a meta call?

I've seen a couple opinions as to the correct equipment choices. I personally have been using feast and famine since I went up in stoneforge mystic targets. Those who have been using light and shadow, do you find that it warrant its spot?

How do you like the sylvan library, for those who play it? I like to have a lot of threats in my version, so there are very little frills. I would like to test it though. I would like to hear from those who currently use it, and I will give my opinion after some of my own games.

Koby

06-08-2011, 07:32 PM

I have sound Sylvan Library important in SB games more than Game 1's. This is because you want to really find your SB cards, and Library helps you dig to find them. Against control and black attrition, it also helps to sandbag the threats until you are ready to cast them. Finally, it allows you to prevent drawing equipment off the top, by putting them back then shuffling them out with SFM.

In most of the games I've played, I've used it to push through pockets of non-lands/lands that we normally don't have much control over.

Bzka

06-08-2011, 08:09 PM

@slate-
I don't like the idea of playing less than 4 KotR in the Deck. Even with 4 GSZ, you always want to draw him(even in multiples) in like every matchup. Having 2 Knights on the Board means you can equip one and beat w/ exalted and use the other one for pure utility. He's an awesome topdeck and still the best standalone beater we have in the deck, even with no evasion (in a healthy meta, if yours is full of TA and NO Bant, playing 3 Mirrans instead might be ok)

M@verick

06-08-2011, 08:27 PM

Well, i am not an expert in zenith version of deck (I run vial), but I will say my feelings:

Cradle must be included (cause playing stoneforge and equiping the same turn) and maze of ith is not needed.

I would play 4 stoneforge mystic, cause is the most destabilizing card of the deck. I think batterskull is slow, and i prefer the old swords. If you run evasive creatures, like birds of paradise, sword of body and mind isnt necessary.

I prefer mother of runes rather than misteps. Mother + bear is autowin vs combo, has sinergy with scryb ranger, and is the most important card in mirror games.

The blue control decks, such as landstill UW, BUG, MUC... are booming, and these are not a good MU. Nowadays i would run a sb like this:

My first thought when looking at your list is cut the Fauna Shaman for Gaddock Teeg, it's a much more valuable GSZ target. My two cents...

Edit: also 2 mom? Why not 4? I would cut a couple goyfs for her.

M@verick

06-08-2011, 09:00 PM

Gaddock disables natural order, in addition to green sun zenith.
Fauna shaman is needed to discard progenitus when you draw it. yuo can GSZ to fauna and then discarding progenitus

Jabari

06-08-2011, 09:05 PM

hahaha my bad, not used to a NO package. I'll shut up now

Slate-

06-08-2011, 09:20 PM

@slate-
I don't like the idea of playing less than 4 KotR in the Deck. Even with 4 GSZ, you always want to draw him(even in multiples) in like every matchup. Having 2 Knights on the Board means you can equip one and beat w/ exalted and use the other one for pure utility. He's an awesome topdeck and still the best standalone beater we have in the deck, even with no evasion (in a healthy meta, if yours is full of TA and NO Bant, playing 3 Mirrans instead might be ok)

Well it went from 4 kotr to 3 kotr and a terravore to just 3 kotr. Yeah he gets big, but Mirran is usually a much bigger threat to most decks. So I went with a 3/3 split of mirran and kotr. I also play only 22 land 1 being maze of ith. So the lack of the set of wastelands and horizon canopy's also factored into my decision. He is also my main gsz target, so it's not like I miss seeing him, in fact i see him plenty.

Barnie25

06-09-2011, 03:37 AM

For all those who are playing mirran crusader, how does he fitt into the GSZ plan as he cant be fetched and what did you cut for playing him?

lilrikki2000

06-09-2011, 04:38 AM

I personally do not like NO versions without blue. I realize fauna can discard the prog if you draw him, but that can be very slow. also, w/ blue decks EVERYWHERE playing NO just seems like a very bad gamble without any protection

myselves

06-09-2011, 05:39 AM

For all those who are playing mirran crusader, how does he fitt into the GSZ plan as he cant be fetched and what did you cut for playing him?

What shall be the "GSZ plan"? Imho GSZ adds more flexibility to the deck by allowing to play virtual 5 grenn creatures by just adding one to the deck. Mirran Crussader ist not a really versatile card. He's simply a good beater and the prot:green can help a lot in the current meta.

4 GSZ
4 StoP
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull (forces the opponent to "waste" his removal on SFM so that you either create CA +1 or have another early threat, it's also quite useful agains BUG-Stil)
1 SoFaI

In this MU MVP was often cut Sword of Light and Shadow. Mostly players forgot that Germ from Battleskull is also black, this mean that equipped creature was unblockable, and unkill able (only vindicate can stop you).

Don't remember every detail from this games but I raced him out with Goyf connected with SoLS then he Vindicate it, and i bring it back again with Eternal Witness from GSZ.

I kept quite hand with 2 Wing Shards, Scryb Ranger, and Hierarch and 3 lands. Unfortunately I didn't drew anything except lands for 10 rounds which was very unlucky. I take off Goyf, then Goyf + Hierarch with Jitte (he wanted to be smart after first Wing Shards and attack also with Hierarch - I casted on flash Scryb Ranger then Wing Shards with storm count +1 ;) ) - at the end I died from second Hierarch with Jitte which was sad.
0-2

Round 3 - Landstill U/W/(g) for krosan grips

I was little nervous about this MU - i took of Thrun out. I win the roll and overwhelmed him with good tempo + wastelands, keeping alive Gaddock Teeg with Mental Missteps was hey to fast victory.

Side out:
2 Swords to Plowshare (2 stay for breaking Standstill and killing Mishra's)
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Terravore
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Maze of Ith
1 Knight of the Reliquary - that was hard

In second game I faced a lot of GY hate but I played quite controlish will avenger tempo strategy, I needle Jace, Played Gaddock and protect him. He played humility after next StP, Karakas safe it - I had Krosan in hand i waited two turns then played GSZ for 3 and In resp to it blow up Humility, then bring Krosan back with Eternal Witness - under Humility I could play GSZ, but couldn't abuse creatures from it so that's why I needed to wait that 2 turns to make mana base. Opponent was playing very slow but in state 1-0 for me I could wait for his long thinking turns - I tell him that he is playing slow and give advice to speed up a little.

Game ends 1-0-1

Round 4 - Spiral Tide

Quite hard MU key was Gaddock + Tempo and its works - I won first game which was surprise. I missteped twice his cantrip so his hand wasn't great - he miss 3rd land drop once which was enough for KotR swing to death. He also played Missteps list included on thecouncil.es

Side in:
Ethersworn Canonist
Pithing Needle - I recognize that he cut Calderabras in list - and mostly this card is sided out so Needle only vs Fetchlands - but I missed.
2 Choke

Side out:
4 Sword to Plowshares

I didn't have real sideboard vs this kind of combo so my only plan was fast clock + one of the two hatebears and slow down with choke if I force him to tapout.

I lost second game in turn 3, he spell Pierce my GSZ then kill me with storm count after first time spiral - I didn't drew any missteps.

Game 3 I had really good hand - Canonist, 2 Missteps, Hierarch and Elspeth, He couldn't fight though it.

2-1

Round 5

NO RUG (not the same guy as in round 2)

This time I have very good draws and push Gaddock on table then protect him, I eated him with KotRs/Goyfs which was bigger he could burn. Game two was similar sideboard plan the same as in round 2.

This MU was much diffrent than NO RUG, he had other game plan, so am I. First game was on my favorable - fast tempo countering his Spell Snare and avoding daze from Scryb Ranger. Then put out of burn range creatures only real danger was bounce from jace, and early lavamancer which i StP.

Side in:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Life from the Loam

Side out:
1 Rafiq of the Many - obv bolt kills it
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Terravore - it dies after relic of progenitus
2 Elspeth Knight-Errant - that is questionable

After Mull to 5 on opponent side was gg, I kept waste+loam lock + beater. He submerge me twice but everytime he submerge I drew other beater, then I Pithing Jace and mostly it was gg.

In finals I take a split (could play but it was late, wastelands are nice ;])

Barnie25

06-09-2011, 09:03 AM

Congrats on the result, nice to see the deck doing as well as it does!

Did you ever utilize the Rafiq or missed not playing battle skull, a third SFM or MoR?

xifre

06-09-2011, 10:12 AM

Congrats on your deck's good performance!

Just an observation.. It seems that you sided out Rafiq more often than your other cards.. Does that mean Rafiq is a win more card?

How about Thrun? A definite powerhouse against blue-based decks and can dodge spot removals.. :p

Morte

06-10-2011, 06:49 AM

This is my updated list. Thanks to Tao and Philipp2293 for their critical thinking :wink:

I cut 1 Noble Hierarch to up to 4 SFM.
Second choice would have been Mirran Crusader, but I really want to see at least one per match, so, being it not tutorable with GSZ, I couldn't accept to run less than 3.

I considered to add 1 BoP, but the only acceptable switch would have been Scryb Ranger, which I found more versatile, or another Noble Hierarch, which I prefer for exalted - I already have a flyer with the Ranger.

I'm testing again -1 SoLaS +1 Batterskull (everybody seem to agree with this, I should consider that maybe I was wrong:-)

More considerations about the mana base. I went -1 Karakas +1 Bojuka Bog and I like it. Nowadays legends are not the main threat, while Bog is widely useful: besides GY decks there are a lot of applications, I liked how it shrinks opposing KoR or turns off Lavamancers.

I upped the fetchland count from 5 to 7 (I had some issue with the size of my early KoR) with 6 targets (4 Savannah, 1 forest and 1 plains).

I have a question: many people play 2 forests with 3 Savannahs, what's the purpose for that? I don's see enough fetchlands to plan to play basics only during first turns.

M@verick

06-10-2011, 07:25 AM

You got a nice list. I like 4 stoneforge maind deck

I'm testing again -1 SoLaS +1 Batterskull (everybody seem to agree with this, I should consider that maybe I was wrong:-)

I don´t agree. I still use SOLAS, and baterskull on sb vs zoo, burn, merfolks and pernicius decks.

More considerations about the mana base. I went -1 Karakas +1 Bojuka Bog and I like it. Nowadays legends are not the main threat, while Bog is widely useful: besides GY decks there are a lot of applications, I liked how it shrinks opposing KoR or turns off Lavamancers.

Are you sure? the new Gin-taxias improves reanimator, and there are still many emrakuls on metagame. It works Vs a very played card: vendilion. The other reason is that you can use it to get mana

I have a question: many people play 2 forests with 3 Savannahs, what's the purpose for that? I don's see enough fetchland to plan to play basics only during first turns.

I think playing only 2 basic lands and 4 savannahs is the correct way

Morte

06-10-2011, 10:07 AM

Thanks for your feedback.

In effect, Bojuka Bog is a very bad draw early game. Need more testing, as for Batterskull vs. SoLaS.

MattHouse

06-10-2011, 12:01 PM

I have a question: many people play 2 forests with 3 Savannahs, what's the purpose for that? I don's see enough fetchlands to plan to play basics only during first turns.

I have 2 forest/3 Savannah in my list for a few reasons. It seems like every match I play my opponent has wastelands in their opening hand. I'm always fetching for basics the first few turns anyways, with GSZ and Hierarch I never have a problem not having the color that I need. Lastly... I only own 3 Savannahs :)

Koby

06-10-2011, 12:06 PM

I upped the fetchland count from 5 to 7 (I had some issue with the size of my early KoR) with 6 targets (4 Savannah, 1 forest and 1 plains).

I have a question: many people play 2 forests with 3 Savannahs, what's the purpose for that? I don's see enough fetchlands to plan to play basics only during first turns.

I actually go the other extreme - 2 of each basics and 2 Savannahs. I'm paranoid about getting blown out from opposing Wastelands, and the basics give a huge consistency within the first 4 turns of the game. If I know that my opponent isn't on Wasteland, then I'll search out Savannah. But for the most part, getting basics hasn't affected my early-game development. This is especially true with Mental Misstep being common - nothing is worse than getting Misstep'd on our 1-drop, then getting Waste'd the next turn.

Tao

06-10-2011, 12:34 PM

Another reason is KotR. It sucks a lot if you have him in play and you are out of Basics against all the nonstandard hate. With just 1 Forets, 1 Plains that would happen on the first activation.

Philipp2293

06-10-2011, 01:56 PM

I can agree with at least 2 basic forest + 1 basic plains, but while I was running 2/2 I always hated the 2nd plains. Atm I'm fine with running 2/1.

Too bad I have little to no time to contribute, I love to see that much discussion on G/W.

Koby

06-10-2011, 02:05 PM

I can agree with at least 2 basic forest + 1 basic plains, but while I was running 2/2 I always hated the 2nd plains. Atm I'm fine with running 2/1.

Too bad I have little to no time to contribute, I love to see that much discussion on G/W.

I thought this was the case too, until I added Mother of Runes back into the deck. This brings the total white card count to:

3 Mother of Runes
4 SFM
4 STP
2 Elspeth

The last card is essentially the reason we need the 2nd basic Plains in the deck. I have no problem playing on 3 lands as long as they are basic. Furthermore, we have Scryb Ranger to allow us 1 extra "green" mana which reduces the dependence on needing 2 basic Forests to produce :g::g:. I'm a big fan of basics for this deck, and have not experienced any significant drawbacks from the 2nd Plains.

Tao

06-10-2011, 02:41 PM

Playing Scryb Ranger is an argument for playing more Savannahs actually because he counters Wasteland activations on them.

Koby

06-10-2011, 02:46 PM

I could see that as an argument for reducing the amount of basic Forest, but not the need for basic Plains. I think it's just splitting hairs at this point, however. At minimum this deck should be playing 2 basic Forests and 1 basic Plains.

Also, versions that run Mirran Crusader stand to gain a consistency from playing with 2 basic Plains as well.

Koby

06-11-2011, 07:10 PM

I ran GW/u Maverick in an MTGO Daily Event, and didn't drop a single game.

While I did like Mangara through the tournament, I think I would cut her at the moment. I must admit that this decklist ins't mine, I copy&pasted it from a local player who finished very good with the deck in some minor tournaments. So, my matchups (very short):
Round 1: ANT, he finishes me off first turn in both games...yeah, well played.
Round 2: Team America. I make a horrible play mistake and lose 1-2.
Round 3: UWr Counterburn with Ninja of the Deep Hours. Strange. 2-0.
Round 4: Eva Green. 2-1. It should be 2-0, but I was tired from the roadtrip the day before -.-.
Round 5: Enchantress 2-1. Yep, I'm proud of that one.
Round 6: UW Control. 2-0. I honestly don´t know what he was plaing till now. I saw Counterbalance, Top and Peacekeeper (I kept Swords in, because I'm that good at reading people!)
Round 7: Team America. 1-1. Intense matches, draw is ok.
Round 8: Junk. This is the match I like the best, because I topdecked like a pro. He thoughtseized me and took my SFM, just to face the SFM I drew right after that. I won't forget the look on his face for a long time :D:D:D 2-0
Round 9: Stax. I think he misplayed at some points, but I take what I get. 2-1.

I think I could have finished better (7-1-1 was good enogh for Top16 for most players!) but I'm ok with the outcome. Right now I'm testing a new decklist I will play next week.

Kellyx

06-11-2011, 08:47 PM

I ran GW/u Maverick in an MTGO Daily Event, and didn't drop a single game.

If you are running tutor package, adding one Eon hub would be gamebreacking.No need to explain it, i bet, if you know our MTGO current meta=).
Also im wondering, isnt it more reasonable to play 4xreliquary/2xquasaly.Pride mages are situational+tutorable, while KoTR is your main force+utility card.

Tao

06-12-2011, 01:24 AM

Did anyone of you ever tutored for Maze in all those games?

Philipp2293

06-12-2011, 04:34 AM

Yes, when I ran it, I usually tutored for it vs Affinity when facing an equiped Etched Champion. Did cut it though.

Koby

06-12-2011, 05:42 AM

Did anyone of you ever tutored for Maze in all those games?

Never used it in that tournament. Would have been a useful topdeck against Affinity when he had Plating, but most of the time KotR got Wasteland to tempo them out.

EDIT:
So I took Maze of Ith out, and ran it again in the tournament. Went 4-0 again. ^_^

I tutored some games for it because if you dont need it for your opponent creatures you still can use it to attack with knight and untap him after combat dmg to use him in your 2nd main phase. Obv this is only possible in a game where you are given time to do this.

Kellyx

06-12-2011, 09:38 PM

EDIT:
So I took Maze of Ith out, and ran it again in the tournament. Went 4-0 again. ^_^

Strange we didnt meet a single time:< played on same daily.
I eat mavericks alive:>

Koby

06-12-2011, 11:23 PM

Strange we didnt meet a single time:< played on same daily.
I eat mavericks alive:>

I think you underestimate the power of countering your filtering. But I'd be happy to test it out in depth.

PanderAlexander

06-13-2011, 06:54 AM

I played this deck yesterday to a 5-1 record getting 1st, great deck, it's very versatile. The matchups I won against were Merfolk, Aggro Loam, BG Infect, Team America, and Dredge. The one loss was to a close G3 against NO RUG. All the matchups felt good except Dredge, I felt completely hopeless the first few turns unless I have a Tormod's or Wheel in opening hand since getting a Knight and waiting for it to lose summon sickness for Bog can be slow. GSZ for Teeg helps, but we got a amazing new GY hate:

Scavenging Ooze 1G
Creature - Ooze r
(G): Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life.

2/2

Good casting cost, fetchable creature for GSZ, and reusable, I'm going to take the Tormod's out for it.

lorddotm

06-13-2011, 07:01 AM

I played this deck yesterday to a 5-1 record getting 1st, great deck, it's very versatile. The matchups I won against were Merfolk, Aggro Loam, BG Infect, Team America, and Dredge. The one loss was to a close G3 against NO RUG. All the matchups felt good except Dredge, I felt completely hopeless the first few turns unless I have a Tormod's or Wheel in opening hand since getting a Knight and waiting for it to lose summon sickness for Bog can be slow. GSZ for Teeg helps, but we got a amazing new GY hate:

Good casting cost, fetchable creature for GSZ, and reusable, I'm going to take the Tormod's out for it.

Where did you play this? I didn't know there was a Legacy tournament going on here in LA.

PanderAlexander

06-13-2011, 07:07 AM

Where did you play this? I didn't know there was a Legacy tournament going on here in LA.

You were there for the first one, Charles' grand opening for his MTGDeals shop has free entrance for the Legacy tournaments this whole first month I believe, at least it was free entrance last week and this week. Last week was for the sweet Mox Tony won, this week was only for two duals and fetches but for free entrance I'm happy.

lorddotm

06-13-2011, 07:31 AM

You were there for the first one, Charles' grand opening for his MTGDeals shop has free entrance for the Legacy tournaments this whole first month I believe, at least it was free entrance last week and this week. Last week was for the sweet Mox Tony won, this week was only for two duals and fetches but for free entrance I'm happy.

I didn't know he was doing more than 1 tournament.

Tao

06-13-2011, 08:30 AM

I played this deck yesterday to a 5-1 record getting 1st, great deck, it's very versatile. The matchups I won against were Merfolk, Aggro Loam, BG Infect, Team America, and Dredge. The one loss was to a close G3 against NO RUG. All the matchups felt good except Dredge, I felt completely hopeless the first few turns unless I have a Tormod's or Wheel in opening hand since getting a Knight and waiting for it to lose summon sickness for Bog can be slow. GSZ for Teeg helps, but we got a amazing new GY hate:

Scavenging Ooze 1G
Creature - Ooze r
(G): Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life.

2/2

Good casting cost, fetchable creature for GSZ, and reusable, I'm going to take the Tormod's out for it.

That seems extremely powerful. A clear maindeck card. At least one for GSZ.

Artlee

06-13-2011, 08:47 AM

Never used it in that tournament. Would have been a useful topdeck against Affinity when he had Plating, but most of the time KotR got Wasteland to tempo them out.

EDIT:
So I took Maze of Ith out, and ran it again in the tournament. Went 4-0 again. ^_^

I also had Mirran Crusader in main first. Then side. Now he's out. In the matchups where he is good, like zoo, he's still vulnerable to both red burn and white exile spells.

What do people think of Beast Within to kill Jace the Mind Sculptor? I know we have Scryb Ranger, but i feel it's not enough to kill Jace, especially as he can +2 while you deal 1 dmg, and in the meantime it's almost guaranteed Pernicious Deed has appeared in the meantime.

Tao

06-13-2011, 10:44 AM

I would say pay 1 more and you get a Thrun and/or a Vengevine. Both are pretty good vs. UGB Deedstill.

Artlee

06-13-2011, 11:21 AM

I would say pay 1 more and you get a Thrun and/or a Vengevine. Both are pretty good vs. UGB Deedstill.

The problem is just, none of those guarantee a dead Jace if they resolve. And as it destroys a permanent, it very seldomly a dead card. You could even use it on your own permanent at opponents turn and have a surprise attacker/blocker.

Koby

06-13-2011, 11:27 AM

I would agree with both Vengevine and Thrun. The one maindeck has been MVP against both W/x and U/x attrition decks. He is able to solely worry about being in combat without worrying about spot removal, bounce, or anything.

Mirran Crusader was in the SB to answer BUG list due to their removal; Pithing Needle has been very good against these lists too, since once you name Pernicious Deed, they lose all removal for it. The Angel's Grace is strictly for the online MTGO metagame in order to trump Hive Mind. I don't anticipate this deck being played more than 5% at any tournament in paper, so this use of a sideboard slot is better utilized by improving other matchups. I would still continue to play Ethersworn Canonist as there is a far greater chance of facing Ad Nauseum Storm than there is Hive Mind in a given tournament.

Artlee

06-13-2011, 07:15 PM

Thrun has most def been good. I have not tried Vengevine though, and I have a hard time imagining it being as good, as the recursion can be hard late game.

Round 4 - Elves! (2-1)
Game 1 - Can't beat his 3 GSZ and heavy mana engine.
Game 2 - He semi-combos with GSZ, but has to pass after I play Mirran Crusader with Jitte in hand. I equip attack, and not seeing KGrip, shred his board clean. He plays Viridian Shaman to take Jitte out, but I have Elspeth to ninja for 10 with the Crusader. (Woot! Crusader is nice in this matchup!)
Game 3 - I develop my mana to enable 4 mana for my opening hand Jitte. Counter Wirewood Symbiote with MM along the way, and cast Ethersworn Canonist as a diversionary tactic. He takes the bait and GSZ for Viridian Shaman, and I untap and shred his board.

I was a little confused about HM playing summoning traps:S so watched replay.
It was summoner's pact^^

Koby

06-14-2011, 02:21 AM

I was a little confused about HM playing summoning traps:S so watched replay.
It was summoner's pact^^

Yes it is. My lysdexia tirkes again.

ScatmanX

06-14-2011, 03:03 PM

Is there another way to fight Hive Mind with this, other than Angel's Grace (gw zenith version)?

Koby

06-14-2011, 04:00 PM

Is there another way to fight Hive Mind with this, other than Angel's Grace (gw zenith version)?

I was thinking about that when I changed the sideboard yesterday. Playing Ethersworn Canonist would prevent their deck from chaining Pacts right after they put Hive Mind into play. This would give us the opportunity on our turn to destroy Hive Mine by many various means. Angel's Grace is just the most elegant in that it can't be countered however. Hive Mind plays at least 8 hard counters, so having a way to make sure they are forced to play fair with their own Pacts seems like a fine way to defeat this very obscure win-con.

That said, I don't anticipate this deck to be very popular overall; it's only on MTGO that this deck has seen many players picking it up. Likely because it's a combo deck that doesn't require Lion's Eye Diamond (100tix) to be played, and you get to use countermagic.

_erbs_

06-14-2011, 11:07 PM

Hello
Just wondering what game plan or sb do you guys do against mirror WGx Maverick. And would you consider allotting SB slots against mirror maverick decks ?

It just hit me as a fellow WGx Maverick user

Thanks

Tacosnape

06-14-2011, 11:43 PM

There are a lot of ways to fight Hive Mind other than Angel's Grace, but all of them are minor nuisances and not actual shutdowns. Angel's Grace is the coup de itself against Hive Mind combo. It's the single best card in the format to shut it down, and probably the funniest thing imaginable that doesn't involve Patron Wizard.

Gaddock Teeg, obviously, shuts down the hardcasting of Hive Mind. It doesn't stop Show and Tell from getting Hive Mind into play, however.

Knight of the Reliquary stops Show and Tell dropping Emrakul, The Aeons Torn. As does having the Karakas in your hand. As does Oblivion Ring. So you have outs here.

Ethersworn Canonist is actually a really strong bet here, as it takes away Hive Mind's main punch - being able to cast a Pact without you getting priority first. Once Canonist hits, it's pretty easy to Oblivion Ring, Krosan Grip, or Qasali Pridemage the thing off the board. (Interesting but irrelevant note - If you Krosan Grip their Hive Mind and it's the only thing in play, it'll actually be their Krosan Grip copy that kills it.)

And if all else fails, splash a little bit of red for access to lots of red blasts in the sideboard.

Tao

06-15-2011, 04:57 AM

The best Anti-Combo choice imo is clearly Thorn of Amthyst.

It slows Hive Mind down a lot because they have to pay twice for their kill. The SnT/Hive Mind Plan costs 5 instead of 3 and the Hive Mind hardcast plan is at 7 and quite unrealistic because of out Wastelands. It also makes their counters and filtering much worse. And unlike Angel's Grace it is awesome against every other Combo deck too. Multiples increase their value exponentially.
You can also side it in against BUG Jacestill on the play and decks with many Brainstorm effects and Tops.

Fatal

06-15-2011, 05:07 AM

Best way to deal with Hive Mind:

Ethersworn Canonist + enchantment kill, also ramping and Birds of Paradise - just pay for the pact, under Ethersworn he can't Cast more than one :].

As of now, i am playing the NO Prog variant with a single Terastodon or Novablast Wurm in the board and as well, instead of Choke i use 3 Summoning Traps, which work insanely good since the printing of Mental Misstep.

Tao

06-15-2011, 01:33 PM

Canonist + active Pridemage is too hard to establish fast enough so it is not the best way. Hoping to outrace a Combo deck by finding, playing and resolving your 2-card-combo before they have theirs is unrealistic. It is of course good to know about this as a backup plan.
Angel's Grace is good, but has almost no use outside of the Hive Mind matchup. It is bad vs. Tendrils decks because they Chant/Duress you before you Combo and almost dead vs. High Tide. It also doesn't kill Hive Mind so if they have a second pact you just die in your next upkeep.

I am convinced that Thorn of Amethyst is currently the best Anti Combo choice. Against Hive Mind it slows down not only their kill but also their counters and their search. Tendrils decks as well as High Tide decks will usually not be able to go off under a Thorn and it slows down their search for answers. It is synergetic with the deck because it multiplies the effect of Wastelands.

videogamer99

06-15-2011, 02:00 PM

Im new to this archetype. I was considering building Junk, but I am on a budget and think that this deck will be cheaper, but do just as well, if not better. I havent played much aggro in legacy (I usually play storm combo or some sort of control deck.), but I think I can pilot this very well. My list was made with budget partially in mind. Unlimited budget would be -1 Maze, +1 Cradle. This is what Im going to try to build:

I think that this list is good and I hope to build it shortly. My only question is whether or not I can play this deck with Temple Garden instead of Savannah for a bit? Also, any random tips for playing this deck, like the KotR + Maze untap trick?

Koby

06-15-2011, 02:40 PM

My only question is whether or not I can play this deck with Temple Garden instead of Savannah for a bit? Also, any random tips for playing this deck, like the KotR + Maze untap trick?

List looks good, but I have two suggestions. First, is consider running Terravore. With equipment, it makes this guy absolutely sure to connect and trigger Sword and Jitte. He's also one of the few trumps against mid-range mirrors. Replacing the 4th KotR is probably the best swap for him.

Secondly, consider running a :w:-fetchland in place of the 3rd Verdant Catacombs. This will give you a better mix of fetching when getting the basic Plains would be important. It still allows you to find Savannah just the same.

As for your question - Temple Garden has nearly no effect on the build, and this deck can very frequently win at very low life totals due to hard-hitting beaters and the life gain from the equipment. I'm an advocate for more basics rather than more duals, but I have a healthy paranoia of Wastelands.

videogamer99

06-16-2011, 02:52 AM

I can cut a Verdant for a Marsh. Thats fine. What do I cut for Terravore? Could I cut 3x Mindcensor for 1x Thrun, 1x E Wit, and 1x Terravore? If not, what would do well?

NathanS2k

06-16-2011, 03:19 AM

I think Eternal Witness is not really needed in the deck. With the help of GSZ, SfM, KotR, we can pull answers out of our library instead of the GY.

Tacosnape

06-16-2011, 06:46 AM

Eternal Witness doesn't pull answers. Eternal Witness generates card advantage and helps you fight through counters. It fills a completely different role than Green Sun's Zenith.

Wasteland

06-16-2011, 07:29 AM

Hi there,
here my actual list, with wich i won last week the Legacy in Nuremberg (44players) and made 6. place this week:

Thoughts: First of all i think, GW hast no need for Goyf anymore - any other creature does more. Second i have to say that sylvan library is rly great (better than Elspeth or crusaders - it's tested).
Third: I think, scavenging ooze will become a great card for the deck. I still don't know, wether i want to play it MD in the witness-slot or in the board in the shaman-slot...
For any questions about my build - PM or post in the threat :-)

PS: Hive mind isnt a factor in our metagame - if it is, i consider angel's grace the best way to beat it, since it does not only stop his combo but also kills him in his next turn.

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

Morte

06-16-2011, 10:17 AM

Very good list, it could be the direction to take.

I can sustain your points against Goyf and for Sylvan Library and Scavenging Ooze.

I still don’t like Teeg main. I think the metchups where it’s useful are not frequent enough to risk to draw a bear shutting down your GSZs. Better keep it the board.

Some questions:

- Why did you opt for Sword of Feast and Famine main?

- Why did you include Quirion Ranger? Is it worth?

- How’s your control metchup without Elspeth?

Fatal

06-16-2011, 10:49 AM

Your build is probably dependent on your local meta I found this tournament:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6309

Looks Maverick infected :)

Koby

06-16-2011, 11:14 AM

Your build is probably dependent on your local meta I found this tournament:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6309

Looks Maverick infected :)

So that's why Maverick showed up in DTB forums XD

Congrats! (anyone have time to parse the 6 Maverick lists there for trending?)

EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like most of the lists are identical to the on posted a few posts up. What's the rational for Quirion Ranger?

sdematt

06-16-2011, 11:46 AM

@ Wasteland

I sat up for hours last night making a GW Maverick build, and I brainstormed a list only a few cards different from yours. Interesting...

-Matt

maza

06-16-2011, 01:05 PM

Last Monday i made top 4 of a 35 player legacy tourney. Hadn't really played Legacy tournaments in while so on Sunday i just threw a list together and off i went.

I went 5-0-1 in the swiss beating Combo Elves, Doomsday Tendrils, NO Bant, BUGstill, Dark Tempo Thresh and IDing against another Dark Thresh deck. Then i beat the same BUGstill player again in the quarterfinals and lost to Merfolk in the semis. A bit disappointed about losing to the fish though.

After playing with the list i probably would cut down on the Savannah's too. The maximum number isn't really needed and the extra basics can be useful in some situations. All though getting G+W is so important for this deck and cutting myself of white once in a while protecting against Wasteland was a bit of a problem. Against Merfolk i kept Heath, Wasteland, Hierarch, Zenith and some other creatures. Then fetching a forest and getting the Hierarch misstepped was pretty rough. Though getting Savannah instead and getting that wasted is even worse.

Maze of Ith was pretty bad all day and side-boarded it out quite a bit too. The only game i actually fetched it was against NO Bant. Elspeth wasn't that great either for me just used it once all day when Mirran Crusader came crashing in for 12. Also she got shut out by Teeg a couple of times where i felt he was more important. Really want to try Sylvan Library in her spot now.

Loved the Mental Missteps in this deck. The versatility really helps. I guess that's just more personal preference then actually a necessity for this archetype.

Thrun was really really good for me too. He singlehandedly won me multiple games against BUGstill as they just have a few outs and some can be covered even. Pretty good against DTT too as just goyfs can stop him there. Mirran Crusader is sweet against them as well, but his slot is more a meta-game call then really something you always want i think.

Koby

06-16-2011, 01:34 PM

Last Monday i made top 4 of a 35 player legacy tourney. Hadn't really played Legacy tournaments in while so on Sunday i just threw a list together and off i went.

Congrats on the nice finish! It's a shame that Merfolk dispatched you in the end, but still a good performance! I'm glad that I'm not the only one experiencing some of the idiosyncrazies that this deck dishes out (mana issues, Elspeth, Sylvans, etc).

I'm thinking that Goyf is on the chopping block soon, it's not very useful 90% of time, but it's still a very large 2-drop that's often needed to bridge the go to KotR.

How did your sideboarding go during the tournament? Did you find any cards that seemed like a good inclusion, but played out poorly?

SuperProxy

06-16-2011, 02:00 PM

I have the same feeling about goyf too I go for Scryb Ranger more than him nowadays when Izenith for 2

SuperProxy

06-16-2011, 02:04 PM

Maverick is really popular in EU even before it was a DTB in the US. I think it started picking up when green and taxes was played by lewis laskin in the earlier SCG tourney of the year.

maza

06-16-2011, 02:57 PM

Congrats on the nice finish! It's a shame that Merfolk dispatched you in the end, but still a good performance! I'm glad that I'm not the only one experiencing some of the idiosyncrazies that this deck dishes out (mana issues, Elspeth, Sylvans, etc).

I'm thinking that Goyf is on the chopping block soon, it's not very useful 90% of time, but it's still a very large 2-drop that's often needed to bridge the go to KotR.

How did your sideboarding go during the tournament? Did you find any cards that seemed like a good inclusion, but played out poorly?

Thanks. Sideboarding was fine. But wasn't that impressed with it to be honest.

Engineered Explosives seems really narrow. It saved me one time against the Elfs as he had 4 one drops and destroyed his whole board with it. And didn't really see anyone with Empty the Warrens.

Don't know about the graveyard hate either. Two slots don't seem enough against Dredge and against other KotR decks i don't feel like bringing in Crypt. Maybe just Bog is fine then.

The Metamorph can probably go too. I added him because a friend was playing NO Bant. When i played him Teeg and Wasteland did enough to stop Natural Order. Plus that i don't like bringing in the Tutors for 1 card.

Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip are just so versatile. Although i feel Needle is much stronger then Grip in this deck as you got Pridemages. In just a very few cases it's actually better. Not sure about Path either don't think i ever brought it in. Must have been a mistake in the DTT match.

Thrun and the Crusaders were really good and so was the Canonist both against Elves and DD. I would add more Canonist probably, because against the decks you need it you want it as fast as possible anyway. Choke seems very good too, but i don't have any of them so that's why i didn't play them.

schniggaz

06-16-2011, 03:03 PM

The people here in Nuremberg started probably with my list from Bazaar of Moxen 5. Here is the list I played for reference:

The list was amazing. Didn't lose a match during swiss (7-0-2) and in my Top 16 match against a friend of mine (he won the tournament with BUGStill) we had to start the game 3 with "first blood". Really strange.

After the tournament Wasteland (Marius H) was really excited about the deck and started to pick it up. I was really glad he made a few good suggestions. (e.g. cutting the Goyf)
Cutting the Tarmogoyf was one of the best thing that happened to the deck. I never tutored it. In the early game I always tutor for some acceleration or utility (Ranger,Teeg,Qasali) with my GSZ. And if the game goes on I wanted to have something that wins the game like Thrun or Knight. Tarmogoyf was never impressive.

Right now we are discussing whether Sylvan Library or Elspeth is better in this deck. Both cards shine against control decks, but Library isn't that great against deed.dec. Therefore Elspeth is just insane. In my opinion it's a meta choice. If you expect a lot of BUG list, then play Elspeth, otherwise go with the Library.

I was wondering why most of you do not play Aven Mindcensor. He is broken :D
He is amazing in all the match-ups that aren't good for us and is nearly never a dead draw. Natural Order and Infernal Tutor decks can be really hard. Sometimes it's able to race an Progenitus but most of the time you are going to lose once Natural Order resolves. Furthermore the Mindcensor answers opposing Fetchlands, Knight of the Reliquarys, GSZ, Intuition, Doomsday, Goblin Matrone ...and so on...
As you can see, in most of the match-ups he is great. He's also flying and likes to carry an equipment.

A few words about the second Ranger, Quirion Ranger!
The deck is all about crazy tricks. Most of the creatures have activated abilities that make this deck so exciting. So one Ranger was most of the time not enough. It was killed way to often. If you play a GSZ for X=1 it almost never gets countered. Once you have your Quirion Ranger on the table and there is one Knight or Mother of Runes on the table too, you are in a good position to win the game.
The next good thing about the Quirion Ranger is that he helps you to stabilize your mana base. Imagine a hand like this (Land,Noble, GSZ, Stoneforge, ...) ;only one land. With the opportunity to search for an Quirion it's possible to win the game with only one land in your whole game. I highly recommend to play a second Ranger.
(Qurion Ranger also blocks Goblin Lackey on the draw ;-))

Maze of Ith: I think that we are the aggro deck and do not have to fear other aggro decks, at least with Batterskull in our deck). In my opinion Maze of Ith isn't necessary any more.

SoFaF: Most of you agree that pro Green is one the important things. Now you add pro Black (pro: removal), a great ability against control (discard) and a way to play way more threats each turn (untap all your lands) and you have the perfect equipment for the deck.
Compared to SoBaM: SoBaM has pro Merfolk, but once the people realized that GW Maverick is the best deck in the format, there will not be any Merfolk decks any more :D The 2/2 bear is not necessary, our deck only plays creatures. So there is always a creature to equip. And is milling your opponent good in legacy? Son't think so.
Compared to SoFaI: It was one of my favorite swords before the printing of Batterskull. In the matchups where you tutored for the SoFaI you can go now for Batterskull or Jitte. Both are most of the time better then SoFaI.

1. Why is nobody at Starcitygames succesful with the deck?
2. Library or Elspeth? What do you think?
3. Does anyone know where I can get three Foil Japanese Windswept Heath? I really want to finish my deck.

Hopefully my english isn't too bad.

Philipp2293

06-16-2011, 03:29 PM

Have you ever considered replacing the 2 chokes in your SB with 2 more Thruns? I currently run 0 Thrun in my 75 and 3 choke SB and might try 3 Thruns instead (or maybe a 1/2 config.)

Btw, went 3-1 yesterday again, winning against Belcher (wanted to vomit when I saw what I was up against, but it was a bad player with a bad list, so GSZ -> Pridemage/Teeg and Batterskull > ETW got the job done), dredge and UW Visions control, losing against Gerry T. Landstill (preboard still sucks immensly, postboard had to break 3 standstills and swallowed all 4 swords and 2 paths, never saw a choke/elspeth the whole game :( ).

Also, please post your pimp Maverick :)

Bzka

06-16-2011, 03:59 PM

@schniggaz

My list looks pretty much the same, i recently added 3 Mindscensors and they miracle with equips. It is also nice that you can have a solid MD answer to NO and flashing it in t2 in resp to a fetchie trigger when your on the play can be gamebreaking.
I'm curious about your Temple Garden as a 5th Savannah. Imo a 3rd Canopy serves the job better, as you mostly don't use it too often until you cycle it, so there isn't much lifeloss, plus it feeds the Knights and the singleton Terravore. Can you explain on that please.

@Tarmogoyf

I went down from 3 to 1 and now to zero copies and totally agree with schniggaz in that case.
Still, when you play Mental Misstep, 1-3 copies are valid, as he can grow big more frequently.

Fatal

06-16-2011, 04:04 PM

Ok time for some answers:

First of all I wouldn't Cut all Goyfs out, actually meta is full of Red splash goyfs is your cheapest wall for 2, also its best answer for 2 for opposite Goyf - I lost all match against TA because i didn't have 2 mana answer vs its Goyf. So best way - one Goyf stay under zenith - unless we get green creature for 2 with protection from burn/goyf.

Sylvan Library Shine in every control MU but it isn't great vs Tempo/Aggro when actually board position and life matters. So if your meta have a lot of tempo/aggro better choose Elspeth its nuts flying over dudes.

Maze of Ith is a next meta slot, mostly useful as defending, sometimes offensive - vs random meta I would never cut it - it make a job against so many random things like Dark Depths dude, Champion from Affinity or just fog vs terravore/kotr so its useful a lot. Can be side out for bojuka for example if your MU is full of KotRs / Dredge.

Aven Mindcensor looks really good in actually meta i have to test it (after i find a place for them).

Choke helps also vs Merfolks MU so I would put Thrun in more than 1-2 it's isn't so impressive because its so much mana expensive.

About equips SoFF is very good could be on side/MD.

Also post your pimped Maverick (actually I'm having about 70% of deck in foil but still missing the stamples :/ )

schniggaz

06-16-2011, 04:51 PM

@Bzka:
With 2 Rangers and 4 Knights you always want to have some Forests. Here in Nuremberg we have to play the Mirror every week. It's always a really long game, stalled by Mother of Runes and the Rangers. After you resolve a Knight you are going to pump it every turn. Sometimes you definetely need more Forest to be able to use your Knight again and still be able to do some Ranger tricks. If you only draw Hierarchs, Canopy, Plains, Karakas and Wastelands as mana sources, your Rangers aren't good anymore xP So I decided to play more Savannahs.

@Philipp2293:

I definetely want both threats against blue control decks. I want Thrun and Chokes. Because Thrun doesn't win against cards like Perish and Wrath of God. Choke does (sometimes).

@Fatal:

In our meta there aren't many red splashes --> no Goyf is needed. But I can understand if you want to play the best green creature :D

I do not want to post my Deck until it is finished. Perhaps I have to realize that it is not possible to get the Fetchies in the near future. So who knows. Perhaps next week ;-)

IMHO sylvan >> elspeth. You can play it earlier and it is usually game against control.
It is also good against tempo, and isnt needed WW to play it.

I have never played maze of ith in WG, and never sicken for it.

I prefer play choke on sb rather than thrun. if you resolves a thurn, landstill player can do his game: crucible or loam to block with mishra until he resolves a wrath of god or perish. In the other way, choke prevents your opponet doing his game, and if he is full-taped can be game (just need to punch fast)

raptorcardz

06-16-2011, 09:34 PM

How is this deck better than zoo and how would you convince a BUG control player to play something non-blue?

Koby

06-16-2011, 10:28 PM

How is this deck better than zoo and how would you convince a BUG control player to play something non-blue?

You get to play a SFM dedicated deck, with much more stable manabase. Admittedly, it's Zoo w/o the red duals, which isn't much of a selling point in this blue metagame. :\

lordofthepit

06-17-2011, 03:39 AM

How is this deck better than zoo and how would you convince a BUG control player to play something non-blue?

I don't play Maverick (I'm primarily a Zoo player), but Maverick is capable of running more creatures and better creatures than Zoo. Stoneforge package backed up by Mother of Runes with Mirran Crusader, as some decks run, is pretty sweet. It can also support more Wastelands than Zoo.

The disadvantages are that it can't support Wild Nacatl, it runs significantly less removal, and it has no reach like Zoo does. I also think red sideboard options from Zoo are great in the current metagame.

_erbs_

06-17-2011, 04:00 AM

hello all
i posted earlier but non bothered to answer my question... with all the MAVERICK rush in the meta... what are your game plans against a fellow maverick deck..., and do you think allotting cards in your sideboard against maverick mirror is a good move.

BlackStarDeceiver

06-17-2011, 04:11 AM

Shizzle + Wasteland:

We ave been brewing around since december with several form of maverick, coming from gw Taxes to our builds as of now here in the Dortmund Region. What are your sentiments about NO Prog in Maverick? I still like it as is the Oops i win button against a lot of decks, but Aven might be the better choice with the rise of RUG Order.

61 Cards, so i might cut the Mongrel and change 1 Scryb Ranger for a Quirion. Even though the Spell Pierces worked great pre Misstep, i feel like they aren't needed anymore. If i get of them, the Tropical will leave and i am not 100% sold on the Cradle, as i tend to have it in my opening 7 without another green source.

Tinefol

06-17-2011, 04:32 AM

I think that sideboard with white can be just as flexible as sideboard with red. In fact I'd generally play this deck over Zoo. Whenever I build the sideboard, I'm asking myself, why do I want red? Generally, red gives you the red blasts. Which can be used
1) Against Merfolk
2) To win counter battles
3) To stop some combo cards
4) To limit control decks/JTMS, I guess

That's why I run them in the RUG Order. Merfolk is a good match up already (for both Zoo and Maverick), and you're not likely to win counter battles with either deck (seeing as combo decks run both FoW and Misstep now). And its not likely you run a spell that absolutely needs resolving, like Natural Order.
Blasts stops Show and Tell and JTMS, right, but the SNT/Control decks run counters, they generally run Missteps, again you're unlikely to win this 'counterbattle' and it requires you to have mana open and mainly there're better cards to fight this stuff.

For these very reasons, when I've played big Zoo, I've never run the Blasts - they are barely needed and barely work at all in this kind of deck. That's why I think they're unnecessary in Maverick and the G/W SB is finely work.

Now, onto why Maverick is better than Zoo. Personally I'd play with Maverick today over Zoo (when I say Zoo I mean big Zoo, as 'fast' Zoo is quite different) any day.
1) It runs more sizeable threats and is capable of deploying and protecting (Mother of Runes) them much faster.
2) It runs better disruption package (more wastelands, Mindcensors, Thrun, teeg etc) and can deploy them faster than Zoo, which is important.
3) Manabase, being G/W and having more fixers/accel is more stable.
4) It generally runs more gas and more Horizon Canopies to help lategame.

Zoo has some selling points too though
1) Nacatl for early offense, and Lavamancer/Pfire for "recursive" burn
2) Some reach, although with the amount of burn, its really marginal, you're likely to win through combat

JCLe

06-17-2011, 09:35 AM

stuff + list

NO maverick is generally called zeta bomb, here's a list for example : http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5909&iddeck=42835

It's generally developped on the italian forum. Most lists include Rafiq and some even go fauna + loyal retainers.

SuperProxy

06-17-2011, 03:05 PM

hello all
i posted earlier but non bothered to answer my question... with all the MAVERICK rush in the meta... what are your game plans against a fellow maverick deck..., and do you think allotting cards in your sideboard against maverick mirror is a good move.

I really think Aven Mindcensor is really good against mirror it affects alot of the strong points of the deck like SFM GSZ and KOTR and this deck also has a weakness against equipped flyers.
when I tested with ruckus it came down to who has elspeth first

Tao

06-17-2011, 03:47 PM

For the mirror 3 things matter the most:

1: Mother of Runes: Play 4. I keep preching this since forever and it seems by now most people have come to the same conclusion. In the mirror MoR is imo the most important card. Playing without turn 1 MoR vs.turn 1 MoR is extremely difficult because you lose too much Tempo playing around it.

2: Equipment: Obviously very important. Make sure to play 4 SFM, a Green Sword and if the Meta is heavily GW infected also a White Sword maindeck. For the same reason play at least 3 Qasali Pridemages. Also run one Witness because it will get back used Qasali's, destroyed Equipment or Swords to Plowshares.

3: Evasion: Scryb Ranger is awesome in the Mirror so play at least one MD for GSZ in the new Meta. Getting Scryb Ranger + MoR online is hard to beat. Mindcensor is solid as well as Elspeth for reasons stated by Proxy. Also 1 Bird of Paradise instead of one / on top of your Hierarchs. Finally the one Terravore also counts as Evasion.

With those things you should be well equipped for the mirror and from then on it gets pretty skill intensive unless one has a draw that blows the other out.

honestabe

06-19-2011, 12:30 AM

Here's what I built on MODO. I've only had it build for a couple days, but I've managed to grind with it in the practice room and run it through a few 2-mans and the list is just a monster.

I'd just like some advice from people who have been playing this deck for longer than I have.

First of all, I feel like I want more firepower in the maindeck, can/should I fit Thrun into the starting 60? How does everyone feel about mindbreak trap in the board? Is cannonist better? Also, I originally started the list with a scryb ranger, but hated it. Anyone else dislike her?

Also, I know the top should be a sylvan library, but I'm too lazy to buy one

honestabe

06-19-2011, 12:30 AM

Here's what I built on MODO. I've only had it build for a couple days, but I've managed to grind with it in the practice room and run it through a few 2-mans and the list is just a monster.

I'd just like some advice from people who have been playing this deck for longer than I have.

First of all, I feel like I want more firepower in the maindeck, can/should I fit Thrun into the starting 60? How does everyone feel about mindbreak trap in the board? Is cannonist better? Also, I originally started the list with a scryb ranger, but hated it. Anyone else dislike her?

Also, I know the top should be a sylvan library, but I'm too lazy to buy one

TossUsToLions

06-19-2011, 01:27 AM

honestabe, and everyone else who has tested Mental Misstep, how relevant has it been in your testing? Is the disruption worth cutting 2-3 threats/extra utility pieces? What matchups has it been good/bad in?

SuperProxy

06-19-2011, 05:00 AM

honestabe, and everyone else who has tested Mental Misstep, how relevant has it been in your testing? Is the disruption worth cutting 2-3 threats/extra utility pieces? What matchups has it been good/bad in?

I've been digging misstep. Honestly, I think it's too good to not play, even though it's 3 less threats you have. Plus, when you have a top/sylvan library, and 3 horizon canopies, you have enough card selection to make the hurt less when it's a dead card.

It's also nuts against Dredge, which is all over the place on modo

TUMBLES

06-19-2011, 04:28 PM

How does everyone feel about mindbreak trap in the board? Is cannonist better?

Speaking as a combo player, you could go a few ways...

In a deck like this Canonist is going to be expected; in your build this can be very nasty if it buys you enough time to land a Sylvan Safekeeper as well - same thing with Teeg already though. Canonist also interferes with your regular game plan the least.

Mindbreak Trap has the disadvantage of being easily dicked by Chant/Discard which will still likely be in the combo deck postboard (although probably in smaller numbers). The advantage to Mindbreak Trap is that the majority of combo players play as if the opponent does not run it until you actually see it cast. The good ones will still play around it if they have the opportunity to do so.

Another option is Orim's Chant; it doesn't see much play but when cast at the right time is a very nasty surprise.

I think I'd personally go with Canonist just because it doesn't interfere with the deck's plan all that much, and it takes advantage of Safekeeper. 2 Canonist in board seems more reasonable than 2 Trap or Chant as well, and as you shouldn't be expecting to win postboard either, 2 Canonist seems like the best option for taking the least sideboard space while still giving you a better chance to win if the opponent stumbles.

Koby

06-19-2011, 06:18 PM

Canonist also helps marginally against Burn/RDW decks, by taking out alot of their speed advantage. This gives you time to enable equipment, attack for a lot, and generally buys time. That's the important part.

preddi

06-19-2011, 06:19 PM

Hey I'm considering building this deck. I like the combat tricks with nearly every creature alot.
I'm curious what are bad matchups for maverick? Because at my local tournament i usually know people like to play.

SuperProxy

06-19-2011, 06:45 PM

Naturally the weakest match up for this deck like any other non Force of Will deck is Combo that's why you dedicate some sideboard cards for it.

HelloFriendo

06-19-2011, 11:03 PM

Finished 5th in a ~50 person tourney yesterday. I'd be interested to know what you guys think about the deck.

(Sideboard was a bit scattered, would have included more Chokes if I had them)

Tourney Report:

Match 1: Bant Natural Order

G1: 1st turn GSZ is spell pierced, I manage to get out a Hierarch and a Knight, but the Knight is STP’ed and during my next draw step my own STP is tucked. He basically outpaces me this game and kills me with his Vendillion Clique and Dryad Arbors

G2: 1st Turn my Hierarch is misstep’ed and my summoning trap is daze’d. I resolve a 2nd turn Aven Mindcensor, but when I attempt to play a 2nd the next turn it is forced, and the 1st one is STP’ed the next turn. By this time he’s run out of steam and I’m able to get out a Knight and a Pridemage and take the game.

G3: I again play a 2nd turn Aven Mindcensor, but it’s STP'ed EOT. The early game involves a lot of countering and exiling of creatures but eventually I end up with a Knight and Thrun on the board. He plays a Rhox War Monk with exalted 2 but I tutor a maze to keep him from dealing any damage. I STP his War Monk and he’s able to hold me off for a few turns by chump blocking but then I Natural Order and it’s over.

1-0-0 (2-1-0)

Match 2: UR Sneaky Show

G1: Opponent mulls to 5. I land a 1st turn Hierarch and 2nd turn Pridemage. He show and tells and drops Progenitus. I drop Sword of Fire and Ice. Swing for 6+2 and play Jitte. He knocks me down to 7. I fetch a land (oops), equip Jitte, and swing for another 8, then STP my own pridemage. I win the numbers game and next turn he’s dead.

Sideboard: -3 Swords to Plowshares +2 Summoning Trap +1 Choke

G2: Opponent gets out a blood moon turn 2 but luckily I have a basic plains and I’m able to put some beats on him with a Mother of Runes and Aven Mindcensor. I drop a Batterskull and he scoops a couple turns later.

G2: Mother of Runes is misstepped and Summoning Trap is forced. 2nd turn Sylvan library resolves, and I stick a Knight and a Pridemage that aren’t answered.

G3: I cast Hierarch, he drops a Mishra’s factor and standstill. We take turns smashing each other and destroying each other’s lands and I eventually have to blow the standstill. I play a Mother of Runes and pass the turn. He drops Pernicious Deed. I play Choke and it resolves. He blows the deed and I play a Knight that brings him to 0 a few turns later.

4-0-0 (8-2-0)

Match 5: RUG Natural Order

G1: My turn 1 GSZ is countered, but my 2nd turn Stoneforge Mystic resolves and I grab a Batterskull. He bolts my Stoneforge Mystic and I follow up with an Aven Mindcensor. He casts a Vendillion Clique during my next draw step targeting himself and I drop a Mother of Runes. He plays a Grim Lavamancer. I play a Jitte (tech), equip Aven Mindcensor, and fling him through with the help of Mother of Runes, in turn killing the Grim Lavamancer and Vendillion Clique. He can’t recover.

G2: 1st turn he missteps my Mother of Runes and dazes my summoning trap. I GSZ for a Hierarch, my knight gets countered next turn, and I summoning trap again into a Stoneforge Mystic which grabs a Sword of Fire and Ice. He scoops a couple turns later.

5-0-0 (10-2-0)

Match 6: Mono-U Fish

Draw

5-0-1 (10-2-1)

Top 8: UW Stoneforge Mystic Control

G1: I keep a mana heavy land because I know he will be running answers to my mana ramp and do not want to be mana screwed. I draw into only more land and my GSZ is countered leaving me with only equipment and no creatures to equip. He ends up landing both a Jace and a Crucible of Worlds and I scoop.

G2: I mull to 6. I drop a land and say go. He first turn suspends an Ancestral Visions. I drop a 2nd turn Stoneforge Mystic which resolves and I search for a batterskull. He drops a meddling mage naming GSZ. I draw and pass the turn. He plays his own Stoneforge Mystic searching for a Manriki-Gusari. I play a land and pass the turn, holding a Krosan Grip. He plays the Gusari, equips and swings. I Krosan Grip it. I draw and say go. He plays another Stoneforge Mystic, grabbing Batterskull and passes the turn. EOT I drop my Batterskull. I draw and swing. He drops his Batterskull and declares blockers. I attempt to STP his Batterskull token, but he has Mental Misstep. They trade and now I’m left with an unequipped Batterskull and a Stoneforge Mystic. The next turn he plays a Jace and I can't recover.

I noticed not many of the lists here run Natural Order but it's usually an auto win vs the aggro mirror and serves as a nice defense against other Natural Order decks. I'm likely bringing this deck to SCG: Baltimore but I haven't decided on a final decklist. If I cut the NO package I'll probably add +1 KOTR +1 Mother of Runes but I'm not sure what to run in the last 3 slots. The MM idea seems interesting.

SuperProxy

06-20-2011, 01:53 AM

From your report its like you can't wait to board out NO package.
A 2 of Elspeth, the Knight Errant might be nice for the 2/3 spot you have left over, for the last either up your Pridemage count just because worst case scenario its an exalted trigger and with the heavy equipment meta you can never have too many disenchants

C Rayz Walz

06-20-2011, 02:32 AM

Do you need natural order? For some reason with stoneforge and GSZ it seems to be to clunky or not needed. I also notice that you sb it out a lot. I think I would cut it and maybe add in some gofys since they are just generally good. How good was the sword in your board?

SuperProxy

06-20-2011, 02:56 AM

When i first picked up this pile i was playing with NO package and i not so sure if its me or the deck doesn't like me at all because I always end up drawing Progenitus early game and drawing the BEAST is sometimes GG

Morte

06-20-2011, 02:25 PM

It seems that the deck has reached a good level of maturity.
We can say that there is an established “core”, looking like this:

With the second list, I’m questioning if the Elspeth/Sylvan Library slot is really more worth than adding more creatures and flexibility to our GSZ toolbox. This option is very interesting, since I’d like to play 4 Mother of Runes, but don’t want to cut anything else:

The Ooze is quite promising. Besides obvious uses it shrinks opposing KoR, defuels Lavamancers, fizzles opponent regrowth effects, and in general is a good way to spend unspent mana. More versatile than Goyf in the same slot, definitely deserves testing.

Philipp2293

06-20-2011, 03:19 PM

Concerning the "core" you listed, I have to disagree on a few issues:

- I wouldn't count Terravore as core, I've always seen it as a flex slot

- How do you come to the conclusion that 2 Mothers make up the core? I think there should be at least 3, but IMHO 4 is the optimum every time

- Also, I think the absolute core fetchlands are only the 4 Windswept Heaths, of course in builds with Library you may want to increase the number of fetchies, but in non-library builds I was fine with only 4 WShs.

Bzka

06-20-2011, 05:12 PM

- Also, I think the absolute core fetchlands are only the 4 Windswept Heaths, of course in builds with Library you may want to increase the number of fetchies, but in non-library builds I was fine with only 4 WShs.

Imho the usage of less than 6 Fetchlands significantly weakens the deck on multiple levels.

1. It weakens your manabase. You really dont want to play more than 3-4 Basics and 1 Temple Garden. Filling the slots with utility can lead to manascrew and/or more mulligans.

2. Having less acess to forests is bad for the rangers

3. Your KotR's and Terravore's benefit from more fetchlands. When you play the mirror, its important who have the bigger Knight.

Therefore 7-8 fetchies are optimal: the lifeloss is nonrelevant, there arent many Stifles in the current metagame and your manabase feels really smooth.

Koby

06-20-2011, 05:23 PM

I have recently started to play a Birds of Paradise as NH #5. I've been running into strange mana issues even with a consistent manabase. This may be due to the higher CC in the deck than originally. I've also swapped out Scryb Ranger with Quirion Ranger due to the mana cost issue, and that it produces mana on the turn it's card with a NH/Dryad Arbor rather than come at parity.

Those issues aside, the list has been pretty good. I agree with the core cards proposed by Morte.

Fatal

06-20-2011, 07:20 PM

Scryb Ranger is much better i actual meta than Qurrion Ranger, protection from blue vs Merfolks/Jace/Vendilion Clique and Flash is really good, u can always dodge wasteland on surprise. Terravore belongs to core due to Mirror MU where its MVP -> Bigger than KotR and also can trample over protections which is really good with Swords triggering.

Also as metion above fetchlands have important role in this deck it feeds KotR which is always good.

HelloFriendo

06-20-2011, 08:24 PM

Has anyone tried the black splash? Confidants seem like they would fit nicely into the deck as a replacement for Sylvan Library, and maybe 2-3 Vindicate. Too cute?

Koby

06-20-2011, 08:36 PM

Has anyone tried the black splash? Confidants seem like they would fit nicely into the deck as a replacement for Sylvan Library, and maybe 2-3 Vindicate. Too cute?

I've entertained that notion at least 20 times in the last 2 weeks. I think fundamentally, while is a good idea, it morphs the deck to something different. At that point, the deck resembles Junk more than Maverick, and should be discussed in the Junk thread.

Fatal

06-21-2011, 06:57 AM

As metion in primer there is option for black splash which brings confidants, best way is vial build to it to avoid big costs, but as rukcus said more black stamples comming to this deck it will become more Junk style deck.

Equinozio

06-21-2011, 08:05 AM

Has anyone tried the black splash? Confidants seem like they would fit nicely into the deck as a replacement for Sylvan Library, and maybe 2-3 Vindicate. Too cute?

I haven't tried Black Splash but I added red splash because I really like grim lavamancer. And adding 4 bolts fealt really confortable dealing with small creatures.

I made top8. 2- 0 to zoo thanks to bolts to early trhats and finishing with thrun and equipment.
2-1 to hive mind ( bad player, but I don't know if he could really win )
2-0 TA
2-0 UW VisionsSkull
tie, tie.
And loose to Uw VisionsSkull 0-2 ( really wierd )

I really like Gw for being so solid but that little red splash really helps to control the board.

Equinozio

06-21-2011, 08:05 AM

Has anyone tried the black splash? Confidants seem like they would fit nicely into the deck as a replacement for Sylvan Library, and maybe 2-3 Vindicate. Too cute?

I haven't tried Black Splash but I added red splash because I really like grim lavamancer. And adding 4 bolts fealt really confortable dealing with small creatures.

I made top8. 2- 0 to zoo thanks to bolts to early trhats and finishing with thrun and equipment.
2-1 to hive mind ( bad player, but I don't know if he could really win )
2-0 TA
2-0 UW VisionsSkull
tie, tie.
And loose to Uw VisionsSkull 0-2 ( really wierd )

I really like Gw for being so solid but that little red splash really helps to control the board.

Anen

06-21-2011, 08:31 AM

Has anyone tried the black splash? Confidants seem like they would fit nicely into the deck as a replacement for Sylvan Library, and maybe 2-3 Vindicate. Too cute?

I am pretty happy with this at the moment. Vindicate is not missing at all with 8 discard effect, discard is really versatile.
But sure, this is between Maverick and Junk ^^

Nik842

06-21-2011, 12:40 PM

I'm really enjoying this topic and I'm really glad to see it picking up a good following. I'm pretty much close to getting my deck list complete, after that I just need to play test it against my friends to see how well the deck fairs. I just have one question right now, can someone please explain to me why Karakas and Dryad Arbor are a must for the deck? My current deck list doesn't run them, and I don't feel like I need to run them. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be in anyone's deck, I just don't see their appeal.

Philipp2293

06-21-2011, 12:46 PM

Dryad Arbor is a must, cause with GSZ it gives you 8 possibilities for T1 acceleration, which is too good to pass up. Karakas ain't an absolute must IMO, but it gives you an out to Emrakul, which is tutorable.

Artlee

06-21-2011, 12:51 PM

I'm really enjoying this topic and I'm really glad to see it picking up a good following. I'm pretty much close to getting my deck list complete, after that I just need to play test it against my friends to see how well the deck fairs. I just have one question right now, can someone please explain to me why Karakas and Dryad Arbor are a must for the deck? My current deck list doesn't run them, and I don't feel like I need to run them. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be in anyone's deck, I just don't see their appeal.

Dryad Arbor is accelerant with green sun's zenith on first turn. You can also fetch for arbor at end of opponents turn, equip and attack, which can be useful if opponent has a Jace out that keeps bouncing your creatures.

Karakas can bounce you Teeg if he is facing removal. It can also bounce Emrakul, Vendilion Clique and reanimators Iona. Iona especially can shut down decks.

SuperProxy

06-21-2011, 02:41 PM

I'm really enjoying this topic and I'm really glad to see it picking up a good following. I'm pretty much close to getting my deck list complete, after that I just need to play test it against my friends to see how well the deck fairs. I just have one question right now, can someone please explain to me why Karakas and Dryad Arbor are a must for the deck? My current deck list doesn't run them, and I don't feel like I need to run them. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be in anyone's deck, I just don't see their appeal.

It just makes Knight of the Reliquery better to make it short it makes a good creature into an even better creature

SuperProxy

06-21-2011, 02:46 PM

I also think splashing black is just making a weaker version of both decks

honestabe

06-21-2011, 03:34 PM

Due to WoTC's banning of Big Pappy Jace, I picked a few up on the cheap, and have changed my deck accordingly:

If you're not running Thrun, you're doing it wrong. He's an absolute beating against anything with Islands. I've also been thinking about cutting the 4th Zenith for a Sword. Fire/Ice is good against the bad decks while Feast/Famine is good against the good ones, so IDK which one I'd want it to be.

Fatal

06-21-2011, 03:54 PM

I think I would cut that Tundra for additional Tropical Island, don't having Forest on start is very bad move in this deck when u want put mana acc on start.

SuperProxy

06-21-2011, 04:15 PM

if your running jace just be done with it and play NO FOW bant lol and that makes it a different thread

TossUsToLions

06-22-2011, 12:32 AM

So i've been testing Sword of Feast and Famine (along with Jitte and Batterskull). When actually playing SFM, though, I find myself only searching for Jitte or Batterskull, never the SoFF. What matchups is it better than the other two equipment in? Jitte is so good against tribal, and Batterskull is just ridiculous against everything. I understand that SoFF allows us to play multiple threats on a single turn, but I just feel that the other two equipment are almost always needed more.

Also, why is SoFF so much better than SoFI? SoFI gives us card advantage, which is needed in the games that we don't have Library out.

Koby

06-22-2011, 01:12 AM

I've been testing out SoFF lately too, just to see why everyone is tooting that horn. I haven't found it all too useful, except against mid-range mirrors, where I need the extra mana to continue overcommitting and forcing them to discard.

Against attrition decks, I'd rather have the SoFI or SoLS to provide real cards in hand, but in the mid-range mirrors, the discard is generally more useful, along with extra mana.

The colors it protects from also play a big role - :r: and :u: are not seen too much, whereas :g: and :b: are nearly everywhere - hence why I think that SoFF has more value in the current metagame.

Eatatjoes

06-22-2011, 12:31 PM

The sword of feast and famine is good in a metagame with alot of green. I play in a metagame, where people dont even know about this deck, and the metagame doesnt call for it, so i play a sword of fire and ice in its place. My metagame also isnt good for aven mindscensor. Here is my list

Man is thrun a beast! He was single handedly trumping maze of iths and jaces all day. He really is sick. And to all the people cutting maze, DONT! That card nullifies opponents equipment, until you draw a qasali, or so that you can save qasali's for other problematic permanents. It shuts down batterskull, and it being colorless is very relevant. Shutting down etched champion, creatures with protection (via mom) and it stops opponents from racing.

sdematt

06-23-2011, 01:51 AM

Played my list yesterday in a tournament. My deck crapped out on me when I drew 8 lands in a row, in 4 different games. I'm only playing 22 lands, but I guess that's the breaks. I'm also playing Vengevines, and they were super all day.

-Matt

Tacosnape

06-24-2011, 02:47 PM

FWIW, I've stopped playing Sword of X and Y's in this deck. They're just not worth it unless you're packing Mirran Crusader.

The more I test the deck, the more I've come to two conclusions:

1. Between Mother of Runes and/or Mental Misstep, it's not hard to protect Stoneforge Mystic.
2. The deck can get to 5 mana.

As such, I'm now packing a Jitte and 2 Batterskulls, and have absolutely no regrets for it. Second Batterskull is an absolute house.

Hopo

06-25-2011, 07:37 AM

FWIW, I've stopped playing Sword of X and Y's in this deck. They're just not worth it unless you're packing Mirran Crusader.

Obviously, it depends completely on the decklist and is in no way to be generalized like that. I've yet to find a better universal sword than Fire and Ice. I wouldn't even play Batterskull in every list as it gives only little benefit to builds which already beat merfolk or zoo without problems. Other swords can be excellent in certain matchups, but SoFI usually dominates in every one of them. And usually fetching Jitte is the right choice anyway so the secondary equipments are to be fine tuned against whatever you expect to be facing.

Mirran Crusader makes any equipment crazy. Only Jitte, SoFaI and conditionally SoWaP can drop opponent from 20 to 0 in two attacks, though.

Tacosnape

06-25-2011, 12:16 PM

Obviously, it depends completely on the decklist and is in no way to be generalized like that. I've yet to find a better universal sword than Fire and Ice. I wouldn't even play Batterskull in every list as it gives only little benefit to builds which already beat merfolk or zoo without problems. Other swords can be excellent in certain matchups, but SoFI usually dominates in every one of them. And usually fetching Jitte is the right choice anyway so the secondary equipments are to be fine tuned against whatever you expect to be facing.

Mirran Crusader makes any equipment crazy. Only Jitte, SoFaI and conditionally SoWaP can drop opponent from 20 to 0 in two attacks, though.

I disagree. I think you can completely generalize it. Here's why, in a sword-by-sword bulletin:

1. Sword of Light and Shadow. It's unplayable. Gaining 3 life is weak compared to all the other lifegaining abilities, and you aren't going to have creatures in your yard often enough to make that ability better than the ones the other Swords have.

2. Sword of Body and Mind. It's unplayable. Seriously, people. Making a wolf is neat. Milling ten isn't what this deck cares about at all.

3. Sword of War and Peace. It's unplayable without Mirran Crusader. Crusader becomes close to invincible with it on (Blue has a lot less removal than White), but otherwise, no.

On to the better ones I'd actually consider playing:

4. Sword of Feast and Famine. Ridiculous synergy with Knight of the Reliquary due to the Maze trick, two relevant but not incredible abilities, protection from green guys, protection from random Doom Blades and Smothers, and protection from Germ tokens. If I were going to run a Sword of X and Y, this would be my choice for Maverick.

5. Sword of Fire and Ice. Generically, in a vacuum, the strongest of the five Swords, though SoFF synergizes a little better with the deck. Also a pretty solid choice.

However, they also have to be compared to Batterskull, who to me is just flying high right now.

Philipp2293

06-25-2011, 01:05 PM

Care to share your list?

Tao

06-25-2011, 01:23 PM

-

Tao

06-25-2011, 01:23 PM

You need at least one Sword maindeck without any doubt. Just playing Jitte and Batterskull is wrong because they are no sufficient aggressive weapons against control deck in many situations. There are decks that just don't care about taking 4 lifelinked damage twice but taking 4 twice and you drawing two is a different story.
SoBaM is not unplayable. It has the best protection of all Swords (Goyf, KotR, Jace TMS, Merfolk) and one nice effect. The effect is very synergetic because it lets you attack while creating a blocker to win races which works out surprisingly often. SoFaI is the best aggressive Sword. I played a while without it but there were enough situations where I missed it so I added it back in. It punishes opponents for not being too slow with their solution more than any other Equipment.
SoLaS is a bad maindeck card because it would be dead too often but an excellent SB choice for the mirror and against Control/Hymn decks.

Koby

06-25-2011, 01:30 PM

You need at least one Sword maindeck without any doubt. Just playing Jitte and Batterskull is wrong because they are no sufficient aggressive weapons against control deck in many situations.
SoBaM is not unplayable. It has the best protection of all Swords (Goyf, KotR, Jace TMS, Merfolk) and one nice effect. The effect is very synergetic because it lets you attack while creating a blocker to win races which works out surprisingly often. SoFaI is the best aggressive Sword. I played a while without it but there were enough situations where I missed it so I added it back in. It punishes opponents for not being too slow with their solution more than any other Equipment.
SoLaS is a bad maindeck card because it would be dead too often but an excellent SB choice for the mirror and against Control/Hymn decks.

I agree to these points, and to playing at least 1 maindeck Sword. IMO, SoFI is the best sword maindeck because it guarantees +1 card in hand and provides a slightly faster clock. I would not play SoFF if you already run Mirran Crusader, as those are redundant. SoBM, I agree with Tacosnape, has no place in this deck. Making a Wolf is pretty weak, and milling 10 can often backfire in the case of opposing KotR/Goyf. WHile SoFI does not provide overall protection unlike SoFF or SoBM, it gives you better triggered abilities that matter more in a tight race.

John Cox

06-26-2011, 05:15 AM

I disagree, I see the swords as "win-more". The "deal damage to your opponent part to get any use out of the sword" is what I dislike. I know the random colour protection helps, but I don't think there's a best pairing in this or any format. I would rather fill my deck up with cards that advanced my board position and got me to the point where a sword of X + Y would get though. I think that board position is what we want, and I think Jitte is best at that. Batterskull increases threat density, stalls, and does what a sword would if mom is on line.

TossUsToLions

06-26-2011, 01:55 PM

But the "deal damage to opponent" part of the swords are what make them not win-more. The "random" color protection allows a creature, that would otherwise not be able to get through, deal damage to the opponent. Abilities like untapping all your lands, gaining life, drawing cards, dealing damage to opponents' creatures, etc. are definitely not win-more. These abilities can all help us come from behind and give us the time that we need to stabilize. They also allow us to just flat-out win games.

Fatal

06-26-2011, 04:47 PM

Ok Guys you wrote a lot of text about Equips (mostly SoFF, SoFI, SoLS, SoBM, Jitte, Batterskull) i take that all and analyze compared to meta.

Congrats, Fatal. I also would like to hear your answers to Tao's questions, and also how was not playing with Moms? Did you often miss a first turn drop?

Also, how did the Scavenging Ooze work, especially with the two Goyfs?

Fatal

06-26-2011, 07:05 PM

Short report:

Round 1 - Reanimator (2-1)

First game vs my team-player this MU wasn't favorable

First game I mull to 5 (still unkeepable hand with mana screw) quick lost - I died to Leviathan which was first dude dogding my Maze of Ith, which was reason to keep hand (one-lander).
Side in:
2 Choke
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wing Shards

Two next games GY hate with Ooze/KotR was enough but my mate haven't great hands, also Missteps/Aven Mindcensors helps a lot.

Round 2 Aggro Bant (2 - 0)

This MU was similar to Mirror MU difference was that he doesn't have Stoneforge Package in this slots he use Cantrips/Draw Engine. Both games Wastelands with Missteps was the MVP on early game, then Terravore ended it fast.

Unfortunately I doesn't wrote SB plan from this MU, but for sure i sided in Life from the Loam and removal (wing shards) which was enough plan to win second game without any problems. He uses stifles and probably think that he can protect from this plan - he was wrong.

Round 3 Affinity (2 - 0)

Game one was tide - but after fetching jitte I survive first wave which was last, after fetching Scryb Ranger I could take off all board (blow up Master of Etherium with pridemage) - Maze of Ith was MVP in this MU.

This MU was really unlucky opponent was really good, I lose the roll, then he misstep my GSZ for 0. After Fetching Batterskull he Clique me in resp to use Mystic - game was his.

Missing again SB in notes - from my memory i sided Chokes for sure

Second game I landed quite fast Choke, cantripped from Clique, then waste his last use-able land. After 5 turns I didn't get any answer to Clique which was on Exalted - I died - really unlucky - he was at 2.

Round 5 - Maverick Mirror (2 - 0)

Really though MU - first game was one of the most excited from this tournament. He win the roll and started from Dryad from GSZ which I sworded instantly. Then he put SoLS which wreck me a little - doesn't have GSZ/Qasali, I put my own Mystic and fetch for the same Sword. then we both put KotR and Swing. He made mistake and use KotR to put his Sword to play and equip for swinging (both have wastelands) Then I chump block on dryad arbor and recurring it from SoLS which won me this really hard situation (KotR was smalled before from MD Bojuka Bog fetched by opponent).

Also missing notes about SB :( but i side in Wing Shards and Bojuka in place of Maze.

As always Junk loses to late game without confidant which was my main aim to take off. He missing him from start and lose fast. He tried to be aggressive with 2 Tarmogoyfs but Batterskull+Ooze make the job.

Again missing SB notes - i was really busy making trade deals and have a little time (I'm also TO and judging those small tournaments)

Game 2

Opponent mull to 6 and wasn't happy so after keeping greedy hand I made mistake with wasteland and loses to mana screw after opponent 2 wastelands.. Elspeth make fast clock with Deed backup.

Game 3

My opponent was real Rock player he boarded tons of removal and forgot about win con. After 3 StP, 3 GftT, 2 Perishes finally my Mindcensor started to attack - few turns later opponent drew KotR and didn't find Maze in 4 cards..

Finals - Bant Aggro (2-1)

First game was fast my opponent loses to greedy hand punished by wastelands and missteping Stifles.

Missing notes - I sided Wing Shards, Bojuka Bog - didn't side Chokes which I show in Swiss

Game two was really porn draw from my opponent in one round he submerge my KotR, put Bojuka Bog from hand (after blocking lethal) and Swording last blocker. Couldn't rebuild after this.

Last game was epic - My opponent plays around not existing Choke, I keep hand with Wing Shards and approach with Scryb Ranger, After 6-7 rounds I was losing board position (Bojuka + Ooze small down my KotRs and Qasali Pridemage blow up SoLS and Jitte), I waited to StP/Censor to take off both attackers to win next turn - Scryb Beat down opponent to low life. Then he attack with everything and tried same trick as in game two - Submerge to fetching KotR - then he get untapping from Scryb Ranger fetch land then Wing Shards - was really epic almost all board take off - he scoop not waiting for more.

Few words about card chooses:
Aven Mindcensor - great card again actual meta full of Stoneforges/GSZ/fetchlands/Entombs/Combos/KotR and flying. Blocking Toolboxes Qasali Pridemage really hurts. I would probably cut 2nd Goyf for 3rd Aven.

SoLS - u can call me heretic but I cutted to side SoFI for this equip - it was MVP in 80% of matches. Recurring best threads is worth - but little note here - beware Scavenging Ooze. Protection from 80% of removal is worth this. SoBM is awful in KotR mirror - I would rather use SoFF which isn't such good in late game.

Maze of Ith - Having this land on opening hand is blank mostly, its blank vs hard Jace Control, but its MVP vs Affinity and Equips - never drop it in blind meta.

Tacosnape

06-27-2011, 07:24 PM

Anybody got any thoughts on the new M12 card, Primordial Hydra?

Doubling the counters on him every turn seems amazing, especially in a deck that packs Mother of Runes. And the fact that he gets trample basically means you can play him as a 3-drop as a 1/1, and in five turns he's going to be a 32/32 trampler. If you ramp up to four before playing him, he'll get that size in four turns, and if you can manage 5 mana, he'll be 24/24 trample in three.

timmycolossus

06-27-2011, 09:23 PM

Hey does anyone have a match-up analysis against reanimator. If so what would be some good cards to side in against them?

Guevera59

06-27-2011, 10:51 PM

I piloted a Big Zoo list at the Baltimore 5k to a tenth place finish going 7-2. I will write a brief tournament report, if you wish to see a blow by blow play of the deck, I was in a feature match in round 9:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22196_Round_9_Kemper_Pogue_vs_Brandon_Leonhardt.html

R1 I beat Max Walker playing UBR Faeries 2-0
R2 I beat Matt Heaps playing Merfolk 2-0
R3 I beat Elliot Dicker playing Ichorid 2-1
R4 I lose to Thomas Evaristo playing Zoo 1-2
R5 I beat William Kahl playing Zoo 2-1
R6 I beat Chas Hinkle playing Merfolk 2-0
R7 I lose to John Winters playing UW Landstill 1-2
R8 I beat James Goodwin playing Zoo 2-1
R9 I beat Brandon Leohardt playing NO Zoo 2-1

Overall I'm proud of my deck and my performance. I played a similar list but without Stoneforge in GP Providence where I Day 2'd but scrubbed out losing to Merfolk twice! Slower Zoo decks have a tougher time against Merfolk, but Stoneforge for SoFI makes the MU incredibly favored.

Tell me what you think and I'll be happy to answer some questions.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-28-2011, 12:55 AM

This is clearly not a deck. None of these lists are particularly similar to each other besides running the same obvious g/w cards like StP, Knight, and SFM. Some lists are not running Goyf which is clearly incorrect. Many of them seem to be under the impression that Scryb Ranger is playable in Legacy which is clearly incorrect. It seems odd that in the year of our lord two thousand and eleven I have to explain why Tarmogoyf is a better creature than Scryb Ranger yet here we are.

Based on the last ten decks described as "Maverick" on TCDecks, which was apparently used to justify this being posted as a DTB, the only core of the deck (based on what's actually run in all lists, as opposed to the apparently habitual efforts in this thread to claim a core that is not actually what people play) is:

That's 18 cards outside of the mana base, 4 of which are StP and which therefore don't count. The only non-ridiculously played spell- in fact the only thing that seems to separate this archetype from any other generic "pile of good cards" strategy in Legacy- is GSZ.

So,

a) Can we at least get this changed to an Archetype? It is clearly that. At best. Like seriously, I have accidentally built probably a dozen iterations of things people would call Maverick on MWS to kick around different variants of some of the best g/w creatures without even being aware that this thread existed.

2) I feel it would increase the credibility of the Source if we did not tell people that Mangara, and certainly Scryb Ranger at least, were Legacy playable cards. Like holy fuck it blocks Merfolk without dying so does Tarmogoyf.

r) ffs people you run a million shuffle effects + Jitte why aren't you running more Libraries?

四) Tarmogoyf is a super-efficient creature you should probably run at least a few.

PS: Elspeth does seem really good with equipment and mana accelerants it is probably correct to run more of that.

PPS: For the inevitable counter-arguments, know that I have a lengthy and mocking response waiting in the wings in which I discuss my new deck U/x Turbulence which runs such core cards as Brainstorm, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Daze-or-Counterspell, and sometimes Jace the Mind Sculptor and-or Vendilion Clique. Alternate working names include twenty percent of the decks in the metagame.

Oh wait fuck I think I spoiled it n/m go on.

sdematt

06-28-2011, 01:12 AM

That post was hilarious. Hilarious and true.

-Matt

Koby

06-28-2011, 01:53 AM

RE Elspeth -
I found through my playtesting that Elspeth is at best a 1-of, and usually in the Sideboard.

RE Sylvan Libary -
Please play 2.

RE Scryb Ranger -
Quirion Ranger is better, and actually is on parity for mana when your short, and generates mana with a BoP.

RE Tarmogoyf -
I agree that 1 should be in the maindeck. Possibly more, but it's more of a metagame choice.

RE Qasali Pridemage -
Should be at least 3, if not 4 in this current metagame. Equipment battles are getting common place. Exalted triggers are also tits when all your creatures are 1/1s.

Hopo

06-28-2011, 02:22 AM

Anybody got any thoughts on the new M12 card, Primordial Hydra?

Doubling the counters on him every turn seems amazing, especially in a deck that packs Mother of Runes. And the fact that he gets trample basically means you can play him as a 3-drop as a 1/1, and in five turns he's going to be a 32/32 trampler. If you ramp up to four before playing him, he'll get that size in four turns, and if you can manage 5 mana, he'll be 24/24 trample in three.

Potential to be huge, but the above scenario involves Mother of Runes and a 3cc creature staying in play for 5 turns. This kind of deck probably doesn't need such thing, as 5 turns of protected Knight of the Reliquary/Vengevine/Tarmogoyf/equipment madness will do the same.

Hopo

06-28-2011, 02:39 AM

...

Spot on, but you don't seem to see the value of Scryb Rangers interactions
with creatures with powerful tap-abilities. I still wouldn't play Ranger without Fauna Shaman, though. And if GWgoodstuff.dec ever has problems with merfolk, it's due to Coralhelm Commander flying over, so that's a minor selling point also for the Ranger.

But yes, this thread is vague. The combination of colors is really strong but the connection between placing lists is somewhat loose. And after people lose to Tarmogoyf beats a bit more, they start to put them back in the deck again. Can't complain about people trying stuff.

Tao

06-28-2011, 06:04 AM

Normally I wouldn't bother to respond to trolls, but he is apparantly trolling with heavy Mod support which is very odd but certainly makes this discussion inevitable. How can CorpT get moderated but not IBA despite being condescending, insulting, unconstructive and using the word "fuck" every second sentence?
Also he is very much wrong (not that being wrong should be moderated but it makes his post even more annoying).

Hey IBA, are you as sure about all your posts as you were about Batterskull and Jace TMS being unplayable. I remember you posting "you fucks this is Legacy you can't play these crappy expensive cards" about both of them?
Not that people can't be wrong about stuff, we all are, but it just reminds me. With the exact same condescending attitude you sold it as if everyone who thought Batterskull or Jace TMS were even remotely playable in this format was completely retarded.

I honestly can't believe that the mods changed the topic of this thread just because of this. IBA and Zilla have their history but this is still ridiculous. I have not experienced biased Mods on an important topic on this site so far and it is not a pleasant premiere.

And now let me carefully explain to you just how bad IBA's post was:

a) writing style: if you would remove all filler words like "clearly", "in the year of the lord", "obvious", "fuck" etc. and then cut all the mocking then the post would not be very long anymore.

b) core: He is criticizing that there is no core to the list. Which is basically the only statement of his expletive-inflated post.
The base list that he presents is deceptive. He uses only 15 lands which might be the result of statistical filtering but says absolutely nothing. It is just normal that people use different Fetchlands and different fetchable lands for different expected Metagames. He also uses only 3 GSZ, no Mother of Runes, 2 Qasali Pridemages, 2 SFMs and 2 KotR.
But if you followed the discussion over last pages a core list with more of each of the cards mentioned above was clearly visible. If you disect decks like this you would have to rename Landstill, MUC and Zoo to "archetype" instead of "deck" too. It is just the nature of these decks to vary because of the many cards with a similar power level. If Wizards would print a 6/6 Tombstalker for a few Mana more I am sure the same would happen to Team America.

And sure from time to time someone would post a big Zoo list or a list with 2 Jaces but first of all there is nothing you can do about it and secondly it is not bad to have someone who had a good tournament result with a similar strategy inform us about that.

c) Scryb Ranger is better than Tarmogoyf in most Maverick lists. The synergies with Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch and KotR make Rangers so good. Paying one Mana more to upgrade a Quirion Ranger with 3 very useful abilities and frequently productive abilities is very much worth it.
Flying is evasion which is great with Equipment and Pro:blue is a nice bonus in a format with Merfolk and Jace. Flash is also good because it can snipe Wastelands, attackers (with a big guy) or removal (with MoR).
ATM the correct number of Tarmogoyfs is either 1 or 0. It does nothing that the deck wants a creature to do.

d) Sylvan Library. Yeah, why isn't card draw/filtering an Auto Include in an aggressive Tempo deck without Reach? My goodness. There was a discussion about this and we agreed on the card being good but no auto-include. A final conclusion on such a topic is just not possible because of the high variance of the card just like with Elspeth, Knight Errant.

e) credibility of the site: Everyone agree with me or the credibility of the site is in danger. lol

On a side note, how safe is the credibility of the site if Friend A of Mod B just hijacks a DTB forum thread and changes its topic while having put up neither any kind of results nor a single constructive sentence to its discussion.

Fatal

06-28-2011, 06:15 AM

@TheInfamousBearAssassin - I think you are ignorant - You post Zoo list in GW Maverick thread, that's first of all, if you don't see difference:

Zoo is three color deck using Nacatl and more removal (Lightning Bolt for example) - it doesn't have many toolbox lands under KotR and can't support too good wastelands.

Running more than 1-of Goyf is wrong in Maverick - better pick up Scavenging Ooze which is Goyf killer, and also great in KotR fight.

Maverick is a toolbox deck - you pick up meta slots and elements which best fit to your playstyle - it's similar to Survival decks.

Next word about Scryb Ranger - if you don't see its abilities and think its 1/1 prot U vanilia forget about playing this deck - its much more skill intensive than burn/sligh/zoo ;]. This little dude has a lot of great interactions in this deck (so does Quirion Ranger) I think Scryb is more universal not only for Merfolks where its wall and claw vs them, but also vs Cliques, Jaces, Thopters, Trygons etc.

Sorry if I was too personal tell me if you been touched by it.

About new hydra its slow and can't be played out of GSZ, don't see place in this deck for it.

Tip - never board out STP against them, also never tappout in their turn - be prepared for GJCA to stp them. After you put KotR in play your safe.

This MU isn't great pre-board as mostly combo MU, but after its depends on your SB slots and starting hand - mostly Ranimator players sided Perishes vs us which make them slower.

Henrik

06-28-2011, 06:17 AM

...

Yeah, OK, that was fun.

Some comments, such as those about library, make sense. The second major impression of the post is of course that you're a douche, but since that is obviously your intention, let's not dwell on that...

In the thread's defense though, it should be said that the deck "Maverick" actually was indeed a deck, rather different from the lists posted here now, before it got listed as DTB, got the attention of the mob, and mr-know-it-alls like you started posted in it.