Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul? Thanks,Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul. I think it would be good if you would. You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching. Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching. I would like to know and understand. Thanks.

Peace,

Caringheart

You still have not told me what exactly in his teaching you disagree with.

I've already told you. ALL OF IT!

That is not an answer. I asked you for specifics. Specifically what is it that Paul teaches that disagrees with what Islam teaches?

"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your threadThe reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.

If I may be permitted to answer. You and many Christians are really confused to say the least. You seem to believe that you have something in common with Jews and Judaism.

Let me explain once more for you....Paul took away the 'Jewishness' when he defeated the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh). He suppressed the teachings of Peter and became an adversary, then using his authority as a Pharisees and a Roman citizen he went on an all out assault on the true followers of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. Then Paul claimed to have a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) when he wasn't even crucified. Crucifxion then became Crucifiction and a completely new religion was born with Roman paganism thrown in to the mix. This new religion spread throughout the Empire and everybody was happy.

Therefore, Christians are NOT ISRAELITES!

My Reply

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

What bothers me with the Christians is they are not ready to reason by examining their scriptures and what was written on it by their authorities. There is no authority believing in what they are trying to cover. We are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seems to dislike that. Pointing out such discrepancies and uncertainties regarding Christianity does not mean a denigration of anything. I believe in Jesus son of Maryam as a Messenger and Prophet and as such I must protect him from saying something that disagrees with what was revealed before him on the platform of one God. I have had a lot of discussions with the Jews and it seems they are more ready to accept Muhammad provided the followers of Muhammad behaved better.

My advise to the organizers of this forum is to have a separate forum between the Muslims and Jews. We cannot go further by the time those who do not believe in Allah, disbelieved in the Torah and refuse to reason join the forum. How can a person without a foot walk and a hand grasp something?

An Arab poet said:

إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل

Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.

There are also parables in the NT confirming this poetary.

Let the Christians realize that we are not supporting any name tied to the Sunna of Muhammad except the pure and exemplary teaching of Muhammad. Muhammad did not teach for example Wahabism or any ism nor called one ahl-al-sunna wal jama'at or gave his grandchildren positions above other human beings. There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them.

If we want peace, then those who want to establish it from the followers of Muhammad must be supported by all. We are not looking for worldly positions or any fame. We can hand over the keys to all the oil wells in the world to those who helped in establishing the Caliphate.

The time for joking, jesting and hair-splitting argument is over. It is time we face the ways and means we can fight recession, unemployment al-qaeeda and Taliban.

Friendship.

Friendship what bothers me is that Muslims pick and choose New Testament scriptures that suit them, and their arrogance that they think they know the Christian scriptures better than Christians.

What do you mean you are looking for a “peaceful environment”. There is peace between Christians and Muslims and always will be. But if you think they will agree then they won’t. But that does not mean there cannot be discussion and tolerance.

Any way you say “we are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seem to dislike that.”

You mean a peaceful environment on your terms, and that Christians agree with you on your terms, and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so!

It is the duty of you in Europe to do so. I have met them so many times and they love Muslims who are intelligent and non violent. They are however marginalized.You said: I believe you put the cart before the horse...this was a teaching of Jesus. Who came first Jesus, or the poet?Response. Note that as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus. I think in another thread I explained that. Are you saying that the way Abraham circumcised himself, Ishmael first was different from the way he circumcised Isaac and Jacob, Essau later? Was the first son at the age of 96 different from the second son at the age of 100. Let us stop joking please. We are adults and not children! Caringheart! Note that it is not the Qur'an that is the source of peace. You speak English fluently, but you must go to a doctor to prescribe for you. You must go to a surgeon to operate on you. There are many branches of surgery. IT IS CERTAINLY THE SUNNA THAT IS THE LIFE HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD THE ARBITRATOR OF PEACE. YOU ARE DECEIVED BY THE WAHABIS AND SALAFIS TO READ THE QUR'AN. YOU WILL ONLY UNDERSTAND IT IN THE UNIVERSITY. FOR EXAMPLE DO YOU UNDERSTAND EMBROYOLOGY OUTSIDE A UNIVERSITY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE STRUCTURE OF UTERUS AND ITS HISTOLOGY BLOOD AND NERVOUS SUPPLY OTHER THAN IN THE UNIVERSITY! DID MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF SPERM CELLS, THEIR MORPHOLOGY, VISCOSITY ETC? ALLAH MENTIONED INFERTILITY, DID HE OR MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE CAUSES? BRING A MUSLIM DOCTOR, A JEW AN ATHEIST HUMANIST TOGETHER. WILL THEY DIFFER IN THE CAUSES OF INFERTILITY?Your rejecting the Sunna of Muhammad is the cause of terrorism.THE WEST IS THE AXIS OF EVIL AND SOURCE OF TERRORISM AND NOT TRUE FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD WHO UNDERSTOOD HIS LIFE HISTORY.

FRIENDSHIP.

The West is the axis of evil and source of terrorism!Friendship you are talking like Al Qaeda or Taliban. I am not out to defend the West. There is much un -Godliness in the West. But at the same time there is a strong blessing of God on the West. A blessing the Muslim world does not have.

Muslims are climbing over themselves to immigrate to the West. Why is that ? Because of the freedoms, prosperity and stability in the West that the Muslim world does not have.

I think Muslims are jealous, resentful and frustrated that the West holds the power of civilization and the Muslim world does not. Its time Muslims snapped out of their victim mentality and took some responsibility for their own failings. You had a shot at it in the past with your Caliphates and the Muslim Ottoman Empire and the result was corruption and atrocities committed against non Muslim people. You are looking for excuses.

You say that “as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus.”

Well Oh yes it does! It denies the most important thing in the whole Christian message. That as the prophets of the Torah predicted – Jesus the Messiah died and rose again for the salvation of humanity !

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul? Thanks,Caringheart

Every single word he wrote down because they are not the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) but his own words, he did not see a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was NEVER crucified. Paul is a liar and a fraud. He helped billions of people to go to hell throughout history by twisting the mission of Jesus (pbuh) and changing and destroying the Mosaic Law. He will rot in hell forever.

The crucifixion is a historical fact witnessed by eyewitness’s and also written by non Christians (eg. Josephus) at the time. Unlike your Muslim version which comes from Mohammad 600 years later. Its obvious that the accounts at the time hold more authority than one 600 years later.

If you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot I suggest you worry more about al-Ḥajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan Rock you bow to.

Any way you say “we are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seem to dislike that.”

You mean a peaceful environment on your terms, and that Christians agree with you on your terms, and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so!

I think Friendship truly does seek a way to peace. What he(and they, the followers of Islam) does not understand is that there can be no peace as long as Islam insists on domination. People must be allowed their free will, just as God gave it to them. Would they be willing to accept domination? This is why there is not peace. No one must seek to dominate but allow all to exist as equals regardless of their beliefs, and regardless of if they are going to hell. That is between them and God on judgement day, but while on this earth we must treat all others alike, or there can be no peace.

I do not know why and how you do not see to reason and commonsense. Without friction will there be motion?Moses did not live with the Christians assumed followers of Jesus. Jesus lived most of his life in Galilee where he performed 25 of his 33 miracles. Jesus and Moses did not live in Arabia lest their Message is known. You will never believe that Muhammad governed the Levi clan of the Children of Israel in Madina and the Christians in Najran. Heraclius surrendered and advised the Romans to do the same. What happened is available for those with an unbiased mind to learn. The only Messenger of Allah with vast experience of tolerance and how to live with mankind is Muhammad Rasulullah. Understand that I am not calling or advocating to follow the examples of Muslim Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians or any tribe. I am advocating for following the way of Muhammad. If you will lead in his practice you will be followed. You will certainly rule the Muslim world.I do not know what your position is in your earthquake ravaged cathedral. I am sure you will fail in uniting the Christians.Your statement: and that Christians deny the
Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of
humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so! is false for according to Reverend Matthew Henry the covenant of grace involves the recompense of singular services.

You said:Friendship what bothers me is that
Muslims pick and choose New Testament scriptures that suit them, and
their arrogance that they think they know the Christian scriptures
better than Christians.

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral. The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law. Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him. Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.

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