my lip balm addiction:I highly doubt it. JoePa did not "create" any victims. He enabled the victimizer which is an entirely different thing. Not sure how much his estate would suffer from that. Probably not much.

Anyone abused after he learned about the diddling can rightly claim that lack of action led directly to their molestation. Zero action vs any action. That's really it. If Mr. Ignore It In The Name Of Penn State Football had done anything, even if it wound up getting thrown out in court, people would not have been so trusting. Maybe his foundation would have been handed to another person. Maybe those parents would have not allowed the kids to have so much access alone with him. Lots of maybe, but better than definitely ZERO action, which is what happened. That redheaded farkwit (who should have gone to the cops, period) should have taken a baseball bat to him.

Joe Pa was old when he heard about Sandusky. Old enough to have plenty of money after a successful career; old enough to take the path of least resistance in the face of a complex and difficult problem or decision.

This does not excuse his actions; it is just one example of an institution or business fooling themselves into thinking people in their 70's and 80's are effective at being in charge of organizations and entities. In general, they're not. They can still be involved, but be in charge? The top guy? In general, they don't have the motivation to earn gobs of money (they've got it already) or the energy to work the hours needed to be on top of it. They might talk a good game, and they might be "beloved", but generally their motivation is not to increase profits or make tough decisions; it's to be well-liked and still delude themselves into thinking they're Mr. Alpha Boss when in reality they don't want to make waves, piss anyone off, or do what's necessary to run a successful organization.

It's a fast-changing, complex world, and oldsters need to turns the reins over to those who can make the tough decisions. Joe Pa couldn't handle it, and the board was delusional if they thought he could.

consider this:J Bag: And 2000 - exactly! It was all the janitor's fault - even though the Freeh Report specifically mentioned the janitor didn't want to say anything because he was afraid to be fired - but still, pass the blame around, right?

So if the janitor would have called 911 and reported a rape taking place, he would have been fired and the police would have covered it up? That's just goddamn ridiculous and I'd hope you were smart enough to understand that.

Not reporting the rape of a child is inexcusable and that janitor is as responsible for the continued abuse as anybody else.

Your comments in this thread are really creepy, why would you spend an entire afternoon defending someone who helped keep a pedophile's secrets? A man raped boys, this coach did more than look the other way.

We're Colonized by Wankers:Joe Pa was old when he heard about Sandusky. Old enough to have plenty of money after a successful career; old enough to take the path of least resistance in the face of a complex and difficult problem or decision.

This does not excuse his actions; it is just one example of an institution or business fooling themselves into thinking people in their 70's and 80's are effective at being in charge of organizations and entities. In general, they're not. They can still be involved, but be in charge? The top guy? In general, they don't have the motivation to earn gobs of money (they've got it already) or the energy to work the hours needed to be on top of it. They might talk a good game, and they might be "beloved", but generally their motivation is not to increase profits or make tough decisions; it's to be well-liked and still delude themselves into thinking they're Mr. Alpha Boss when in reality they don't want to make waves, piss anyone off, or do what's necessary to run a successful organization.

It's a fast-changing, complex world, and oldsters need to turns the reins over to those who can make the tough decisions. Joe Pa couldn't handle it, and the board was delusional if they thought he could.

You also have to remember what happened to a guy who was investigating the rumors of a child-sex ring in Pennsylvania. His "suicide" was highly suspicious.

Even if Joe Pa was clean and upstanding--and I certainly don't believe he was--he might have lied or covered up out of fear of threats against him.

Mrs.Sharpier:.Your comments in this thread are really creepy, why would you spend an entire afternoon defending someone who helped keep a pedophile's secrets? A man raped boys, this coach did more than look the other way.

Mrs.Sharpier:Your comments in this thread are really creepy, why would you spend an entire afternoon defending someone who helped keep a pedophile's secrets? A man raped boys, this coach did more than look the other way.

No, seriously, what in the fark is wrong with you?

You should really pay closer attention before you start insulting people. I'm not defending Paterno, I'm saying that there are other people just as, if not more responsible for what was allowed to happen. Focusing all of the hate on Paterno just because he's the most recognizable name is ridiculous.

consider this:You should really pay closer attention before you start insulting people. I'm not defending Paterno, I'm saying that there are other people just as, if not more responsible for what was allowed to happen. Focusing all of the hate on Paterno just because he's the most recognizable name is ridiculous.

The hate is on Paterno because he was the most powerful person and could have ended this whenever he wanted. "Telling his superiors" was not good enough based on repeated incidents by Sandusky.

Joey Paterno is Joe Paterno's grandson. If Sandusky had been raping Joey Paterno, do you think JoPa would have been satisfied informing his superiors and letting it go? Or do you think the police would have escorted Sandusky away the instant Paterno knew? You think Paterno would have given a damn about publicity and treating Sandusky humanely if his grandson was being raped?

Phil Moskowitz:You people will worship anything. It's truly scary. I don't know if its genetic or cultural, but you're all too ready to eschew your logic just for a little feeling of belonging. It's so tribal it makes me vomit.

Turn the hate on the man in the mirror and stop painting with such a broad farking brush retard. Probably 90% of the postings in here are intelligent discussions of the differences between kiddie rape (what Sandusky did) and enablement and cover up (what JoePa and the University brass did). Your screams just make you look like an ignorant tool. So STFU and GBTW already will ya? Thanks. Adults are talking here.

J Bag:The hate is on Paterno because he was the most powerful person and could have ended this whenever he wanted. "Telling his superiors" was not good enough based on repeated incidents by Sandusky.

The police could have ended it in 1998 by charging Sandusky.Child welfare could have ended it in 1998 by recommending chargesThe janitor could have ended it in 2000 by reporting it.Officials at second mile could have ended it in 2001 when they were made aware of the incidents.The university president could have ended it in 2001 when Paterno reported the incident.Mike McCreary could have ended it in 2001 when he witnessed an assaultVarious parents could have ended it by taking their complaints to the police instead of the campus police and university officials.

consider this:J Bag: The hate is on Paterno because he was the most powerful person and could have ended this whenever he wanted. "Telling his superiors" was not good enough based on repeated incidents by Sandusky.

The police could have ended it in 1998 by charging Sandusky.Child welfare could have ended it in 1998 by recommending chargesThe janitor could have ended it in 2000 by reporting it.Officials at second mile could have ended it in 2001 when they were made aware of the incidents.The university president could have ended it in 2001 when Paterno reported the incident.Mike McCreary could have ended it in 2001 when he witnessed an assaultVarious parents could have ended it by taking their complaints to the police instead of the campus police and university officials.

consider this:J Bag: The hate is on Paterno because he was the most powerful person and could have ended this whenever he wanted. "Telling his superiors" was not good enough based on repeated incidents by Sandusky.

The police could have ended it in 1998 by charging Sandusky.Child welfare could have ended it in 1998 by recommending chargesThe janitor could have ended it in 2000 by reporting it.Officials at second mile could have ended it in 2001 when they were made aware of the incidents.The university president could have ended it in 2001 when Paterno reported the incident.Mike McCreary could have ended it in 2001 when he witnessed an assaultVarious parents could have ended it by taking their complaints to the police instead of the campus police and university officials.

Congratulations. You are now aware of the massive scale of the cover-up at Penn State. All to protect the football program and the legacy of Joe Paterno.

Owangotang:If they play football at PSU this season something is clearly very wrong. Scholarship losses, bowl-bans, it does not matter. They'll still play, the fans will still be zealots, and nothing will happen to punish the culture that created this coverup

I would like to take this moment to suggest that FARK establish a fund to supply Michigan State and Ohio State students and fans with sign making materials.

consider this:Mrs.Sharpier: Your comments in this thread are really creepy, why would you spend an entire afternoon defending someone who helped keep a pedophile's secrets? A man raped boys, this coach did more than look the other way.

No, seriously, what in the fark is wrong with you?

You should really pay closer attention before you start insulting people. I'm not defending Paterno, I'm saying that there are other people just as, if not more responsible for what was allowed to happen. Focusing all of the hate on Paterno just because he's the most recognizable name is ridiculous.

I'm paying all the attention this deserves. Stop justifying anything less than what is being doled out. Any adoration of an individual ceases when they contribute to the harm of a child. End of story.at one point you should stop playing devils advocate, I'm sure even the devil would agree.

J Bag:consider this: You should really pay closer attention before you start insulting people. I'm not defending Paterno, I'm saying that there are other people just as, if not more responsible for what was allowed to happen. Focusing all of the hate on Paterno just because he's the most recognizable name is ridiculous.

The hate is on Paterno because he was the most powerful person and could have ended this whenever he wanted. "Telling his superiors" was not good enough based on repeated incidents by Sandusky.

Joey Paterno is Joe Paterno's grandson. If Sandusky had been raping Joey Paterno, do you think JoPa would have been satisfied informing his superiors and letting it go? Or do you think the police would have escorted Sandusky away the instant Paterno knew? You think Paterno would have given a damn about publicity and treating Sandusky humanely if his grandson was being raped?

THAT'S the problem.

Actually, J Bag, if his precious football team and position of power in Pedo State and Rapey Valley was threatened, I don't think it's unimaginable that JoPa would have asked his grandson to "be quiet and don't tell anyone".

J Bag:consider this: You should really pay closer attention before you start insulting people. I'm not defending Paterno, I'm saying that there are other people just as, if not more responsible for what was allowed to happen. Focusing all of the hate on Paterno just because he's the most recognizable name is ridiculous.

The hate is on Paterno because he was the most powerful person and could have ended this whenever he wanted. "Telling his superiors" was not good enough based on repeated incidents by Sandusky.

Joey Paterno is Joe Paterno's grandson. If Sandusky had been raping Joey Paterno, do you think JoPa would have been satisfied informing his superiors and letting it go? Or do you think the police would have escorted Sandusky away the instant Paterno knew? You think Paterno would have given a damn about publicity and treating Sandusky humanely if his grandson was being raped?

Actually, I do. He was a denier who quickly passed the buck because he didn't want to know the details. McQuary knew that; he said he didn't go into details "out of respect" for the coach. Paterno claimed he'd never heard of sex between a man and a boy, which I find utterly impossible to believe.

He was the patriarch of his family. If his grandson was raped, I think everyone would have told the kid he was mistaken.

fireclown:Owangotang: If they play football at PSU this season something is clearly very wrong. Scholarship losses, bowl-bans, it does not matter. They'll still play, the fans will still be zealots, and nothing will happen to punish the culture that created this coverup

I would like to take this moment to suggest that FARK establish a fund to supply Michigan State and Ohio State students and fans with sign making materials.

gimmegimme:I admire Ripken a great deal. He has always done a lot for baseball. If I found out that he facilitated serial child rape, I would think he's a piece of garbage and that the Orioles should take down his statue.

No it's not. There is documented evidence Paterno insisted on football players being disciplined how he wanted, which is a violation of NCAA rules.

Lied to a grand jury - no evidence of this

He told the grand jury he had no awareness of what was going on with Sandusky. That is patently false.

flat out lie and not in the report

Actually it's pretty much the whole reason the report exists.

Would you people stop replying to this retarded POS please? He is a troll nothing more. He is creating circular logic that allows him to refute everything you say with more stupidity. Just stop replying to him and when it stops being "fun" for him, he'll crawl back under the bridge.

Silverstaff:Mitch Taylor's Bro: Likewise, investigating Sandusky circa 1998 would've been terribly embarrassing for the program. I think those who are saying it would've further canonized Paterno as someone who prevented child molestation are looking at it in hindsight, ignoring how long a proper investigation would've taken, how many headlines would've been written about Penn State's program--all negative--during that time, and how large a black eye it would've been if the allegations couldn't have been proven. Even if it had gone to trial at the time, there's a chance Sandusky would've been acquitted. And then Paterno would've been a guy who threw his friend under the bus. So, looking at this through Paterno's filter of "do what's right for the program" makes it easier to see how an otherwise good person could harbor such a horrible, serial child predator. Sometimes we only see what we want to see, especially when it involves friends. This in no way exonerates Paterno's behavior, but I can see how such an ugly thing could've manifested itself.

The problem is, Joe Paterno always talked about doing things the right way, being upstanding and moral, doing what is right. That was his whole persona: the "good guy" coach who might be gruff and rough sometimes on the field, but always did the right thing.

What is right isn't always what is popular.

Sometimes the right thing morally might not be the best thing for the program. There are more important things in life than College Football, like protecting children from known molesters.

Failure to realize that is why Joe Paterno is not seen as the morally upstanding paragon of a sports coach he tried to be remember that as, it is why he will go down in history as a morally questionable coach who hid behind a facade of respectability for decades while letting crimes slide to preserve the reputation of the team and school.

Exactly. His legacy is greatly diminished by this scandal. I don't know why so many people still adore him, but maybe it just takes them longer to work through the process of realizing he wasn't who they thought he was.

I'm much more of a basketball fan, so the person I would compare Paterno to would be John Wooden. I've watched his TV special and will get around to reading my copy of "They Call Me Coach" someday. I admire the way he coached and approached life. But if I found out that he allowed a scandal of this magnitude to continue under his watch, well, I wouldn't go out and burn that book, but I'd definitely feel betrayed and wouldn't think twice about supporting a complete eradication of his name from the UCLA campus.

PC LOAD LETTER:my lip balm addiction: I highly doubt it. JoePa did not "create" any victims. He enabled the victimizer which is an entirely different thing. Not sure how much his estate would suffer from that. Probably not much.

Anyone abused after he learned about the diddling can rightly claim that lack of action led directly to their molestation. Zero action vs any action. That's really it. If Mr. Ignore It In The Name Of Penn State Football had done anything, even if it wound up getting thrown out in court, people would not have been so trusting. Maybe his foundation would have been handed to another person. Maybe those parents would have not allowed the kids to have so much access alone with him. Lots of maybe, but better than definitely ZERO action, which is what happened. That redheaded farkwit (who should have gone to the cops, period) should have taken a baseball bat to him.

I hope you are correct. I mean I know that his inaction could be shown to have directly or indirectly led to their abuse. And I hope that such a finding is made. I just don't trust that it will.

This is an outrage! Don't you know that you are only supposed to focus on a man's accomplishments in life? Why do you need to be negative and dwell on some bad things that he may have done later?

I mean, look at this guy. Everyone remembers him for his victory at the Battle of Saratoga, and no one even gives a thought about what he did later. Now, over two centuries later, the only thing someone thinks about when they hear his name is the victory he won for our country. Can't we just treat Joe Pa with the same respect?

HempHead:MBK: They should have taken the statue down Saddam Hussein style:

All the victims of Sandusky pull the statue down, then they take off their shoes and smack the statue.

If you ever see the photo with the wide-angle lens, the Iraqis around the statue are stage by the American Army.

[www.informationclearinghouse.info image 800x600]

Much like Penn State, the Iraqis were not clamoring to pull down the statue.[www.informationclearinghouse.info image 800x559]

More Iraq war propaganda.

It wasn't staged, it just wasn't as crowded as some of the shots implied. Staged implies that this was some pre-organized event, intended to deceive.

At a minimum it appears that it just wasn't as dramatic an event as news coverage during the invasion breathlessly declared. At most one of the PsyOps teams (which aren't nearly as cool as conspiracy theorists and anti-war people try to make them sound. They're leafletters and bullhorn operators) used loud speakers to announce that the statue was being pulled down and invited people to come watch.

Err'body can use hyperbole. You're just using it in the opposite direction.

Sandusky was investigated by the university in 1998 and that investigation was turned over to local authorities. They declined to press charges.

Okay, I confess my ignorance in this matter because I don't really care about Penn State, college football or Joe Paterno. But I did just spend way too much time reading the Freeh report just to get up to speed. Seems like there was no actual sexual abuse in the 1998 incident, just HELLA CREEPY BEHAVIOR. Like, seriously skin-crawling, how could any 11-year-old feel it was okay for a grown man to "hug your guts out" in the shower creepiness! But the two boys interviewed didn't report any genital contact (theirs or his), and the police were not properly trained to investigate something like this ("Had the officers been better trained in the investigation of child sexual abuse they would have interrogated Sandusky directly after his confrontation with the boy's mother. A timely interview with Sandusky may have elicited candid responses such as the identification of other victims." pg. 45-46 of the Freeh report). This is why the investigation was dropped.

Now, the 2001 incident that was witnessed by Michael McQueary? That's what earns whatever punishment the NCAA decides to hand out tomorrow, and forever sullies Paterno's legacy IMO. When he told McQueary, "I said you did what you had to do. It's my job now to figure out what we want to do," he took responsibility from that point onward. And when he said that he didn't want to call other Penn State higher-ups about it because he "didnʹt want to interfere with their weekends," well, that pretty much tells me that he was either trying to figure out how to handle it in a way that wouldn't harm the university and the football program, or he really didn't think child molestation was that big a deal. I'm inclined to believe the former because the latter would just drag him all the way down to Sandusky's level.

Sandusky was investigated by the university in 1998 and that investigation was turned over to local authorities. They declined to press charges.

maybe not enough evidence then...but obviously enough went on sine then that it should have been re reported. The police may have failed a bit in this too, for all we know. But it sure looks like a lot of pretty serious stuff was never reported to authorites.

You could look at it as if Paterno, the AD, the university president and the SVP of Finance and Business seriously underestimated what type of sexual predator they were dealing with and mistakenly thought they could handle it themselves, or that it was an actual coverup, or somewhere in between. I'm leaning toward coverup with a healthy dose of "we don't need to involve anyone else; Jerry will listen to us and not bring more trouble to the university" naiveté/wishful thinking.

In the end, there's plenty of FAIL to go around the highest level of university leadership, and I'm starting to understand how some people can take the "burn the program to the ground" approach. Yes, it would impact the community and innocent students. But when you have one entity that has so much influence over a community that even the janitors implicitly understand that speaking out against it is wrong under any circumstances, you don't fix it with a scalpel; you need a sledgehammer.

Oh, the admins deserve their fair share of the blame, but the fact remains that they acted under Paterno's influence, for Paterno's motives.

And why wipe Paterno from the school's history, thus ignoring the good things he achieved?

Because he deserves no honor for the psychopath's mask he used to hide a predator. To echo Shakespeare's Antony (somewhat ironically, since he said it with the opposite intent): The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Paterno.

ZipSplat:It wasn't staged, it just wasn't as crowded as some of the shots implied. Staged implies that this was some pre-organized event, intended to deceive.

At a minimum it appears that it just wasn't as dramatic an event as news coverage during the invasion breathlessly declared. At most one of the PsyOps teams (which aren't nearly as cool as conspiracy theorists and anti-war people try to make them sound. They're leafletters and bullhorn operators) used loud speakers to announce that the statue was being pulled down and invited people to come watch.

Err'body can use hyperbole. You're just using it in the opposite direction.

Pointing out propaganda is not any where close to being the same as creating it.

It was a staged event for the cameras.

Being "invited" by soldiers with guns drawn is a little bit different than being invited to have tea with the Queen.

As much as you want to defend Bush II, its impossible. Iraq was never behind 9/11. No matter how hard you claim, its just not true. Its propaganda(and I know you will blame me for 9/11 for pointing that out).

fonebone77:Joe reputation deserves to be destroyed. Everyone involved that covered it up should go to prison.

Having said that. You jackasses who are using this as a soap box to preach your disdain for sports and its fans are just as twisted as the PSU fans sticking up for these people. We get it. You hate anything but sitting around your local (non starbucks cause thats too mainstream) coffeehouse sipping your double sugar chocolate vanilla toffee coffee bashing everyone that is beneath you.