Here\'s the problem with your entire argument Billy. You\'re comparing Pro Bowlers to third string players. There are certainly varying levels of talent in the NFL, but can we suffice it to say that no matter what, if you\'re starting in the NFL, you\'ve got a good amount of talent?

If that\'s the case then it is the coach\'sjob to harness that talent and squeeze it all out of a player. The bottom line is that Lumm0x is right. Buddy Ryan could make players overachieve. He could do it by teaching technique and he could do it with his scheme - making sure players were in the right place at the right time.

Venturi makes players underachieve. Don\'t believe me? Watch game tapes and see how many miss timed blitzes there were. Wrong formations and packages, coverage schemes etc. Or we can talk about players - Clemons under Zook led the team in tackles, had 13.5 sacks and 3 or 4 interceptions. What did he do under Venturi? Sammy Knight was a Pro Bowler under Zook... Venturi blamed him for a large part of the defense\'s failure. Darren Howard\'s numbers were good... but not as good as his first year under Zook. Not enough? Want to compare the Pro Bowl DEs and DTs we had under Zook to what our front four did last year?

The point is simple and you don\'t seem to get it Billy. With the exception of the top five or so players at any position in the NFL, the difference between number 6 and number 26 is NOT talent. It\'s coaching, plain and simple. B/c everyone of these guys is a great athlete. They\'re big, or fast, or strong, or a hitter, or they have great hands, a great arm, great vision... etc. Every starter in the NFL and a lot of the second stringers have the potential and ability to be a top ten player at their position. There are two things that stop them - A. their own work ethic, B. Coaching. Coaching is the MOST important factor in a team\'s success in the NFL. Period.

Now I\'m confused... you just said you\'d take a great coach with marginal players over great players with a marginal coach \"everytime\". So then what the hell have we been debating for the last 15 posts?

Also given your list you have 5 down linemen, 3 Lbers 2 CB and a saftey. Give me the Bucs D, Buddy Ryan and we each get photocopies of an offense and I\'ll take your lunch money all day long. You have no coaches, you think all players can play purely on instinct? I\'ll exploit missed coverage and you\'ll be lucky to see the ball.