@vaderito wrote:@spacebaby45678 Thank you for your amazing work explaining Hero Journey. Yes, she will find love with Ben Solo.

I have a question about ESB scene with Luke in the place strong with the DS. They never elaborated in TP or later in OT about places which are strong with one or the other side. It was always about people but never about places, that instance being an exception. So do you think that there's another place where Rey may go for a challenge and possibly see Vision!Kylo or Mirage!Kylo or Shadow!Kylo?

Yes, it is a cave, concept drawings have shown Rey in a cave and rumors of filming in a cave also.

Cave concept art is on the bottom.

Looks like Jedi Killer and Kira standing in front of a grey man in a grey chair whose greyness is spreading toward them.

No idea if this was for The Force Awakens or for the sequels.

The lower picture is actually old unused concept art by Ralph McQuarrie - it's Vader and Palpatine with... someone? (I've seen it called Luke, but it looks like a woman rather than Luke.) They've taken a lot of inspiration from McQuarrie's unused pieces for these new films, though - I think the upper picture was directly inspired by the lower one.

As for the upper picture, if I remember correctly it's titled "The Throne Room". I somehow doubt it's supposed to be Kylo - more like confronting Snoke, or somebody else, who knows. It might be an early idea they abandoned altogether. But it's interesting that they've been looking at caves in Mexico as potential locations.

Looks like Jedi Killer and Kira standing in front of a grey man in a grey chair whose greyness is spreading toward them.

No idea if this was for The Force Awakens or for the sequels.

The lower picture is actually old unused concept art by Ralph McQuarrie - it's Vader and Palpatine with... someone? (I've seen it called Luke, but it looks like a woman rather than Luke.) They've taken a lot of inspiration from McQuarrie's unused pieces for these new films, though - I think the upper picture was directly inspired by the lower one.

As for the upper picture, if I remember correctly it's titled "The Throne Room". I somehow doubt it's supposed to be Kylo - more like confronting Snoke, or somebody else, who knows. It might be an early idea they abandoned altogether. But it's interesting that they've been looking at caves in Mexico as potential locations.

I've always thought that it's supposed to be Rey in the top pic, for some reason. The idea of her going in to see Snoke is interesting, especially if it turns out that he has answers for her in regards to her lineage.

Oh dear that's exactly what came to my mind... | Imagine the angst, the sadness/desperation & the anger upon learning that she's the granddaughter of the Emperor... That would be awesome! (from a certain POV of course... )

Oh dear that's exactly what came to my mind... | Imagine the angst, the sadness/desperation & the anger upon learning that she's the granddaughter of the Emperor... That would be awesome! (from a certain POV of course... )

Rey meeting with Darth Sidious ghost( like what they did in Rebel where Yoda meet Darth bane ghost) would be the ultimate shocking reveal but also fit the Yin Yang, Kylo come from the Good Side while Rey come from the Dark Side and together they found the Grey, that could also explain a few things, I mean her parent(s) could try to protect her from the New Republic once they figured out that she is the granddaughter of the Emperor, they would probably want to eliminate her or do something bad , then Snoke upon learning about the new, try to killed the fleeting family which force her parent(s) to left Rey on Jakku

What's Snoke feels about Palpatine really? FO rised from the Empire but that does not mean Snoke have to admire Palpatine, Snoke even claimed to lives for a long, long times so he could see Rey as a threat and believe she must have died with her family that why when Kylo run to him, Snoke may have his suspicious and want to meet Rey to confirmed

Another stupid question: in tfa, did kylo went through the second act of the hero's journey? Or am I completely wrong and I'm a goat?Edit: I'm a goat. So they meet in the "wild bride and bridegroom" step, ok I needed this informationI'm sorry if I'm bothering you @spacebaby45678 but can you give me an example of this kind of dynamic from previous trilogies? Or it's a brand new dynamic?

On two separate occasions an immediate cut was made from Kylo's face, both times after he hears about "the girl," straight to Rey's.

The first time was when Kylo force grabbed the officer after he was told about Rey. Ending with Kylo asking "what girl?" Then cutting hard to Rey's face.

The second time is before Kylo captures Rey. A Stormtrooper tells him BB-8 is with a girl. The camera closes in on Kylo then another hard cut to Rey's mug.

After they meet, presumably, for the first time face to face it switches from Rey towards Kylo.

The third time is when Rey is running in the forest. She hears Kylo's saber, then cuts to Kylo in pursuit.

The fourth time starts with Rey's face in the interrogation scene. She wakes up looks around and asks "where am I?" Then the camera cuts to Kylo's face. During the the infamous scene the majority of shots are closeups constantly cutting to both their faces.

The fifth time; Rey tries the mind trick. It starts with her face, with her failing the first couple times ending with James Bond threatening to tighten her restraints; zooming in on our heroine. Then an immediate cut to Kylo returning and Rey growing stronger using the JMT.

Something else I noticed; the Kylo to Rey cuts end with Rey endanger(The MF was breaking down; Stormtroopers were chasing her). The Rey to Kylo cuts she is, relatively, safe.

This is really all I gotta add to this discussion. Sure, I could spend some more time adding even more GIFs and pictures of them being way too close in proximity (in nearly all of their scenes actually), but at this point I don't see why. I mean, we all have seen the movie. *shrug*

One thing I noticed and haven't really commented on, though I'm sure it's been discussed:

When Kylo Ren says to Snoke: "By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced" = acknowledgement that the light is tempting/seductive and a resolute vow to resist that seduction.

Likewise, Rey says to Maz "I'm never touching that thing again. I want no part in this." It's a resolute vow to not get involved, to never wield the lightsaber. Fast-forward to SK Base, she not only touches the lightsaber again, she actually pulls it to her and wields it impressively to defeat Kylo Ren. Fast-forward again to Luke's island, not only is she involved, she's actually diving right in by going to Luke.

There's a kind of symmetry between those separate scenes with Kylo and Rey that isn't super obvious, I think. To me, Rey's initial refusal of the call to adventure ("I'm never touching that thing again") and subsequent embracing of the call mirrors Kylo's refusal of the pull to the light in TFA, and it might foreshadow the fact that he will embrace the light, just as Rey embraced the call.

When Kylo Ren says to Snoke: "By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced" = acknowledgement that the light is tempting/seductive and a resolute vow to resist that seduction.

Likewise, Rey says to Maz "I'm never touching that thing again. I want no part in this." It's a resolute vow to not get involved, to never wield the lightsaber. Fast-forward to SK Base, she not only touches the lightsaber again, she actually pulls it to her and wields it impressively to defeat Kylo Ren. Fast-forward again to Luke's island, not only is she involved, she's actually diving right in by going to Luke.

There's a kind of symmetry between those separate scenes with Kylo and Rey that isn't super obvious, I think. To me, Rey's initial refusal of the call to adventure ("I'm never touching that thing again") and subsequent embracing of the call mirrors Kylo's refusal of the pull to the light in TFA, and it might foreshadow the fact that he will embrace the light, just as Rey embraced the call.

Yep. Technically, playing Burning Homestead over Marry Me Face is Kylo accepting the call [from the Light] because that was music played over Luke's accepting the call to the adventure/hero journey (like typical Skywalkers, neither looks too bright at that moment )

They wanted Burning Homestead in that moment even though it's absent from the official soundtrack. When you think about it, if he called the saber, it would be the end of him. Total darkness. They played Snoke music over his attempt to call it, as if suggesting that picking up the saber was going to make him the Dark Lord. But when Rey picks it up, it's the Force theme and than Burning Homestead over Kylo's reaction. Than, he corners her and offers her to be her teacher instead of demanding that she gives him back the saber. he could've totally said, give it back or I'm gonna push you off the cliff. But he didn't even try to grab it.

I've talked about this before, but in rewatching the PT it became clear that they were giving all sorts of foreshadowing for Chancellor Palpatine being the Big Bad, in spite of it seeming unlikely on the surface when Palpatine seemed to be on the side of the angels. It's only after you rewatch the whole thing that you realize that episodes I and II were full of clues for you to connect. I think the ST will be no different in terms of its big twist (surprise: REYLO), and there are moments in TFA that are seemingly innocuous but will be revealed to have been significant hints later on.

There is a scene with Kylo Ren and Snoke in TFA that has kept nagging at me. The moment when Snoke says "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?" After a long pause Kylo Ren says "Yes." Rey is the awakening, right? If you think about what's really going on in that scene, Kylo Ren is basically saying that he has felt or perceived Rey through the Force in some way. Not that he knows her as Rey, just that "he has felt it" - her awakening. Her.

Imo this goes along with the "What. GIRL?" moment. Why so worked up there? Because in feeling her through the Force he may have picked up on a distinctly female energy/signature and then when he hears that there's a girl with access to the map to Skywalker/ancient Jedi ruins he becomes agitated, wondering if this is the person he felt? Maybe because he didn't just "feel it", but also saw her?

Going back to the vision moment in Maz's Castle. Rey has awakened in the Force and touching a Force relic induces a Force vision in her. She sees Kylo Ren before meeting him - but he sees her too, and he takes a step towards her. It's a breaking of the 4th wall moment that we've talked about - Rey is no longer an observer, because Kylo Ren sees her too. But connect that with the above; it's likely he had already seen her, even before that vision.

I think this explains a lot of his behavior towards Rey. We can argue that after he met her and "they recognized an energy in each other" in the interrogation room he was quite taken with her and that explains the proposal offer to teach her, and that may well be the case. But to me, he was already pursuing her with single-minded intensity before he even shared a scene with her in TFA. I think he knew her from once upon a dream. Or as it says in the TFA novelization: "in a daydream, in a nightmare," just like she knew him before ever meeting him.

Crazy thing, I know, but throughout TFA I saw four - and possibly five - signs that there is stll good in Kylo - not Ben but Kylo.1. He was weakened rather than strengthened by killing his father2. He was, at least as he saw it, 'kind' to Rey.3. Not confirmed, but there are strong hints he warned Leia about Starkiller - again, just speculation, but possible.4. His genuine disquiet at the destruction of the Hosnian system.5. Sparing Finn...and this to me has the most repercussions.

What would have happened if he hadn't spared Finn?

Poe Dameron would have been executed, and Leia would have lost her best pilot - the man who led the assault on Starkiller. BB 8 would still have met Rey, but she would never have found out about his mission, and without Finn's warning she probably would have died at the hands of Hux's men. They would then have retrieved the map and in all likelihood killed Luke - they didn't even have to meet him in person, just used Starkiller to destroy Acht To.Without Finn, the Resistance would never have found out Starkiller's weakness, or known how to take down the shields.Rey would have been dead, she never would ave met Kylo and without her he would probably fall completely into darkness.The only positive outcome would have been Han would have lived - but with his wife dead and his son forever lost, I don't see Han wanting to live much longer. And knowing the type of person he was, he probably would have died fighting the First Order. Who with both the Republic and the Resistance gone would have taken over.

It's a bit like 'It's a Wonderful Life' isn't it? Kylo mght not think it at the moment but his sparing of Finn could be the saving of him!

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Crazy thing, I know, but throughout TFA I saw four - and possibly five - signs that there is stll good in Kylo - not Ben but Kylo.1. He was weakened rather than strengthened by killing his father2. He was, at least as he saw it, 'kind' to Rey.3. Not confirmed, but there are strong hints he warned Leia about Starkiller - again, just speculation, but possible.4. His genuine disquiet at the destruction of the Hosnian system.5. Sparing Finn...and this to me has the most repercussions.

What would have happened if he hadn't spared Finn?

Poe Dameron would have been executed, and Leia would have lost her best pilot - the man who led the assault on Starkiller. BB 8 would still have met Rey, but she would never have found out about his mission, and without Finn's warning she probably would have died at the hands of Hux's men. They would then have retrieved the map and in all likelihood killed Luke - they didn't even have to meet him in person, just used Starkiller to destroy Acht To.Without Finn, the Resistance would never have found out Starkiller's weakness, or known how to take down the shields.Rey would have been dead, she never would ave met Kylo and without her he would probably fall completely into darkness.The only positive outcome would have been Han would have lived - but with his wife dead and his son forever lost, I don't see Han wanting to live much longer. And knowing the type of person he was, he probably would have died fighting the First Order. Who with both the Republic and the Resistance gone would have taken over.

It's a bit like 'It's a Wonderful Life' isn't it? Kylo mght not think it at the moment but his sparing of Finn could be the saving of him!

Excellent observation, that one action both kicks the entire movie (trilogy) into motion and eventually ties together the four main characters with little BB-8 being the bouncing ball that the chase is supposedly after. No Finn, no Rey and no Rey - very bad things would've happened. Even for Han, the alternate scenario would likely be getting killed by one of the smuggler gangs he was cheating, if not losing both his wife and child. He still dies in the above scenario, but it's a better/more noble death that will also likely play into saving his child's soul and life.

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Crazy thing, I know, but throughout TFA I saw four - and possibly five - signs that there is stll good in Kylo - not Ben but Kylo.1. He was weakened rather than strengthened by killing his father2. He was, at least as he saw it, 'kind' to Rey.3. Not confirmed, but there are strong hints he warned Leia about Starkiller - again, just speculation, but possible.4. His genuine disquiet at the destruction of the Hosnian system.5. Sparing Finn...and this to me has the most repercussions.

What would have happened if he hadn't spared Finn?

Poe Dameron would have been executed, and Leia would have lost her best pilot - the man who led the assault on Starkiller. BB 8 would still have met Rey, but she would never have found out about his mission, and without Finn's warning she probably would have died at the hands of Hux's men. They would then have retrieved the map and in all likelihood killed Luke - they didn't even have to meet him in person, just used Starkiller to destroy Acht To.Without Finn, the Resistance would never have found out Starkiller's weakness, or known how to take down the shields.Rey would have been dead, she never would ave met Kylo and without her he would probably fall completely into darkness.The only positive outcome would have been Han would have lived - but with his wife dead and his son forever lost, I don't see Han wanting to live much longer. And knowing the type of person he was, he probably would have died fighting the First Order. Who with both the Republic and the Resistance gone would have taken over.

It's a bit like 'It's a Wonderful Life' isn't it? Kylo mght not think it at the moment but his sparing of Finn could be the saving of him!

Excellent observation, that one action both kicks the entire movie (trilogy) into motion and eventually ties together the four main characters with little BB-8 being the bouncing ball that the chase is supposedly after. No Finn, no Rey and no Rey - very bad things would've happened. Even for Han, the alternate scenario would likely be getting killed by one of the smuggler gangs he was cheating, if not losing both his wife and child. He still dies in the above scenario, but it's a better/more noble death that will also likely play into saving his child's soul and life.

After reading @motherofpearl1's excellent rundown of what would have happened had Kylo not saved Finn, I had a similar thought about Han ... not only that what really happened gave Han a more honorable death *and* a *redemption* from his fall back into crime where he had become so jaded he didn't seem particularly bothered that his crew was eaten by rathtars ... but I also think that Han would be happy to sacrifice himself so this better series of events could happen where so many people, not just his son, could be saved. I always feel that people always look at Han's death the wrong way. There is really not a more heroic way for a guy like him to go out.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:After reading @motherofpearl1's excellent rundown of what would have happened had Kylo not saved Finn, I had a similar thought about Han ... not only that what really happened gave Han a more honorable death *and* a *redemption* from his fall back into crime where he had become so jaded he didn't seem particularly bothered that his crew was eaten by rathtars ... but I also think that Han would be happy to sacrifice himself so this better series of events could happen where so many people, not just his son, could be saved. I always feel that people always look at Han's death the wrong way. There is really not a more heroic way for a guy like him to go out.

I'd like to think that the reason why Han named his kid Ben was that his life would've met an ignoble end if he hadn't met Leia thanks to the crazy old man. And if he hadn't met Rey, he likely would've met the same type of fate, getting bumped off thanks to a deal he screwed up or trying to cheat dodgy characters because "I can talk my way out of it." Think of it like the Kurosawa quote Kasdam (who loooves Han and looooves his son) has mentioned about how only villains stay constant. Han is in flux throughout his life, especially at those two critical points as both a young and old man.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:After reading @motherofpearl1's excellent rundown of what would have happened had Kylo not saved Finn, I had a similar thought about Han ... not only that what really happened gave Han a more honorable death *and* a *redemption* from his fall back into crime where he had become so jaded he didn't seem particularly bothered that his crew was eaten by rathtars ... but I also think that Han would be happy to sacrifice himself so this better series of events could happen where so many people, not just his son, could be saved. I always feel that people always look at Han's death the wrong way. There is really not a more heroic way for a guy like him to go out.

I'd like to think that the reason why Han named his kid Ben was that his life would've met an ignoble end if he hadn't met Leia thanks to the crazy old man. And if he hadn't met Rey, he likely would've met the same type of fate, getting bumped off thanks to a deal he screwed up or trying to cheat dodgy characters because "I can talk my way out of it." Think of it like the Kurosawa quote Kasdam (who loooves Han and looooves his son) has mentioned about how only villains stay constant. Han is in flux throughout his life, especially at those two critical points as both a young and old man.

All this!!! Absolutely!!! And when you think about it, it was his son's moment of decency in a sea of darkness that got his father back on track ... because you're right, he wasn't going anywhere good with that smuggling. He seemed to be at the end of the road. Instead, he goes out like some Viking warrior king. That moment with Finn has always been a big deal, but the more you think about it, the more profound it is, considering Ren was very dark side on Jakku. Was that a call from the light? Is that a sign that Ben comes to the surface sometimes? Because like @motherofpearl1 excellently pointed out, that moment makes everything good happen ... except for Han's death, something which I think Ren had been avoiding for years ... and all that makes Ren even more tragic in a way.

I agree, but to Kasdan it was never supposed to be perfect. Kasdan lost the battle back in 1983 to GL, who wanted that cutesy ending ... but Kasdan won the war in 2015. I think Kasdan brought the OT 3 back to their ESB selves because he felt it was truer. I wouldn't be surprised if the divide of who likes or dislikes Kylo runs along the same line of who has ESB as their favorite and who likes ROTJ the best. IMO, the ROTJ are much more likely to resent Kylo's existence.

I agree, but to Kasdan it was never supposed to be perfect. Kasdan lost the battle back in 1983 to GL, who wanted that cutesy ending ... but Kasdan won the war in 2015. I think Kasdan brought the OT 3 back to their ESB selves because he felt it was truer. I wouldn't be surprised if the divide of who likes or dislikes Kylo runs along the same line of who has ESB as their favorite and who likes ROTJ the best. IMO, the ROTJ are much more likely to resent Kylo's existence.

I know I can't be imagining one comment in an article I read on the bolded. Kasdan had envisioned Leia ending up pregnant with her and Han's child while acting as Queen, trying to steer a galaxy thrown into chaos following the Empire's fall. There being a child from her and Han's relationship was always envisioned to be part of the story, along with Han sacrificing himself for the greater good and Luke going into exile as a sort of dark Ronin. Still wouldn't be the greatest environment for a kid to be born into.

I agree, but to Kasdan it was never supposed to be perfect. Kasdan lost the battle back in 1983 to GL, who wanted that cutesy ending ... but Kasdan won the war in 2015. I think Kasdan brought the OT 3 back to their ESB selves because he felt it was truer. I wouldn't be surprised if the divide of who likes or dislikes Kylo runs along the same line of who has ESB as their favorite and who likes ROTJ the best. IMO, the ROTJ are much more likely to resent Kylo's existence.

I know I can't be imagining one comment in an article I read on the bolded. Kasdan had envisioned Leia ending up pregnant with her and Han's child while acting as Queen, trying to steer a galaxy thrown into chaos following the Empire's fall. There being a child from her and Han's relationship was always envisioned to be part of the story, along with Han sacrificing himself for the greater good and Luke going into exile as a sort of dark Ronin. Still wouldn't be the greatest environment for a kid to be born into.

Whoa! So some version of Kylo was maybe always there in Kasdan's head. I'll have to look at the timeline again as to when Kasdan came in, because I am sure that the Solo son came back on the table then ... though I am suspicious if he did come earlier in some way. I really can't imagine them grabbing Adam Driver as practically their first new casting hire for him to play the Jedi Killer in those drawings. I wonder if he was more of a traditional legacy child at first, but then when Kasdan came they put the Greek tragedy on Kylo/Ben. Though there had to something interesting and difficult about the earliest incarnations of Kylo/Ben, because why did they need someone like Adam Driver. KK said that only a few actors of that age could play the part. The fact that they stuck with him when he took months to decide tells me that list was very short and they really wanted *him* for some reason. I mean he didn't even have to audition and he wasn't that well known. This is all intriguing. Twenty years from now Disney will let someone write the tell-all book, lol.

I know I can't be imagining one comment in an article I read on the bolded. Kasdan had envisioned Leia ending up pregnant with her and Han's child while acting as Queen, trying to steer a galaxy thrown into chaos following the Empire's fall. There being a child from her and Han's relationship was always envisioned to be part of the story, along with Han sacrificing himself for the greater good and Luke going into exile as a sort of dark Ronin. Still wouldn't be the greatest environment for a kid to be born into.

Whoa! So some version of Kylo was maybe always there in Kasdan's head. I'll have to look at the timeline again as to when Kasdan came in, because I am sure that the Solo son came back on the table then ... though I am suspicious if he did come earlier in some way. I really can't imagine them grabbing Adam Driver as practically their first new casting hire for him to play the Jedi Killer in those drawings. I wonder if he was more of a traditional legacy child at first, but then when Kasdan came they put the Greek tragedy on Kylo/Ben. Though there had to something interesting and difficult about the earliest incarnations of Kylo/Ben, because why did they need someone like Adam Driver. KK said that only a few actors of that age could play the part. The fact that they stuck with him when he took months to decide tells me that list was very short and they really wanted *him* for some reason. I mean he didn't even have to audition and he wasn't that well known. This is all intriguing. Twenty years from now Disney will let someone write the tell-all book, lol.[/quote]

I don't think that I'm imagining that detail but can't remember where I may have read it. But I can swear that I read something that Kasdan's original scenario included her both pregnant after Han's death while trying to lead a galaxy in chaos after the Empire's fall. Very much on her own, which also contrasts with the sentimental view of there being a Golden Trio.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that book! Disney's roadblocked the biography of Ward Kimball, one of its greatest animators and lead of the Dixieland Band the Firehouse Five (also rumored to have started the "Walt's Head is Frozen" rumor) for years. That's despite the protests of his family and people like Brad Bird. The only way any information would ever get published is because a squad of lawyers and public relations staff have given their benediction that nothing would make the corporation look the tiniest bit bad.