America: the country that loves its flag so much that they sing a song about it (except no they don’t, because nobody can sing it), and the mere act of kneeling during that song is enough to get people whinging.

These words from The American President say it as well as I've heard it said:

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America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms.

America: the country that loves its flag so much that they sing a song about it (except no they don’t, because nobody can sing it), and the mere act of kneeling during that song is enough to get people whinging.

I feel a need to point out that the kneeling protests were exactly the kind of protests that the pundits and politicians are always advocating: peaceful and nonviolent, with no threats to persons or property. Yet they still lost their shit about it. It’s almost as though all these discussions about civility and respect, are really just a polite way of saying, “Shut the hell up!” like they object to the very idea of the protests, rather than anything related to tactics or goals.

Also, the kneeling protests began when Obama was in office and they were protesting police brutality. It was Trump who took it and made it all about him, because Trump is incapable of not making anything all about him. To borrow from Alice Roosevelt*,Trump wishes to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding, and the baby at every christening.

Though while we’re quoting from fiction**, I’ll serve up this quote from “What if Captain America was Revived Today?” The issue was published in 1984, but goddangit...there should be a word for something you enjoy, but at the same time, you want to cry and shoot yourself, while reading it, because it is so prescient. Though I imagine we can’t solve this by having Steve Rogers beat the crap out of people, after which he does a singalong of “America the Beautiful.”

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You were told by this man that America is the greatest country in the world! He went on about how precious America was how you needed to make sure it remained great! And he told you anything was justified to preserve that great treasure, that pearl of great price that is America! Well, I say America is nothing! Without its ideals its commitment to the freedom of all, America is a piece of trash! A nation is nothing! A flag is a piece of cloth! I fought Adolf Hitler not because America was great, but because it was fragile! I knew that liberty could be snuffed out here as it was in Nazi Germany! — Steve Rogers, What If Captain America Were Revived Today?

*For the record, she said this about her father, Teddy, but at least he had legitimate badassitude to back up his ego, unlike Trump who has nothing but ego.

**I’m in no position to judge anyone, seeing as I cope with everything by filtering it through pop culture. Because fiction has the common courtesy to make sense, dammit!

Captain America smacks me as being too much like a sovereign citizen to be worth appealing to. I mean, if he’s convinced he’s right and everyone else is wrong, what will he say when push comes to shove?

Captain America smacks me as being too much like a sovereign citizen to be worth appealing to. I mean, if he’s convinced he’s right and everyone else is wrong, what will he say when push comes to shove?

True, I just get a little uneasy with his rhetoric because once you establish yourself as beholden only to the spirit of the law, as you interpret it, and only when the law is just (again, as you interpret it)... You’re really just one "misfiled" tax return away from being a sovereign citizen. Yes, I’m exaggerating, but not nearly as much as I wish. For all T. Stark behaves like a jerk, at least he’s a jerk with some appreciation for government and the rule of law.

I did some googling for Captain America and sovereign citizens before I made my initial post and was surprised the movement hasn’t claimed him yet. For now I guess his interpretation of the spirit of the law doesn’t leave enough room for them. For now. Just wait until he gets a little older and starts looking to protect his piece of the pie from all the "freeloaders" out there who never took up a shield, stood on that thin gray line of law and justice, and risked it all to say "no, you move" like he did to to earn his keep.

For all T. Stark behaves like a jerk, at least he’s a jerk with some appreciation for government and the rule of law.

I don't think that's quite right. I think Stark's looking to transfer/displace the guilt he feels and figures that if he signs with the government, then anything he does is their fault, not his. Notice that the first time he expressed any interest in following a government is after his (more or less) private army was responsible for the killing of dozens of innocent citizens. If he did believe so much in the rule of law, he wouldn't deploy a private, heavily armed army whenever he sees a problem. (Both the Avengers and the Jarvis-controlled suits and mechs.)

And don't forget, in Civil War, Captain America saw the government deploying three large warships whose first duty was to murder anyone that might challenge or even speak up against their order. Yes, it was Hydra doing that, but Hydra was deeply embedded in the government and whose to say that they caught everyone this time? Not to mention what Fury had been up to.

(Note that the above is based on the movies, I've not been keeping up on the TV shows or comics.)

True, I just get a little uneasy with his rhetoric because once you establish yourself as beholden only to the spirit of the law, as you interpret it, and only when the law is just (again, as you interpret it)... You’re really just one "misfiled" tax return away from being a sovereign citizen. Yes, I’m exaggerating, but not nearly as much as I wish. For all T. Stark behaves like a jerk, at least he’s a jerk with some appreciation for government and the rule of law.

I did some googling for Captain America and sovereign citizens before I made my initial post and was surprised the movement hasn’t claimed him yet. For now I guess his interpretation of the spirit of the law doesn’t leave enough room for them. For now. Just wait until he gets a little older and starts looking to protect his piece of the pie from all the "freeloaders" out there who never took up a shield, stood on that thin gray line of law and justice, and risked it all to say "no, you move" like he did to to earn his keep.

Like a wise man once said: you either die a hero...

The species of sovereign citizens I'm familiar with are all about the letter above the spirit of the law. They think they've found loopholes in the laws that mean they can do whatever they want regardless of what the law is intended to do. Cap's less than lawful alignment conflicts with that.

I don't think that's quite right. I think Stark's looking to transfer/displace the guilt he feels and figures that if he signs with the government, then anything he does is their fault, not his. Notice that the first time he expressed any interest in following a government is after his (more or less) private army was responsible for the killing of dozens of innocent citizens.

I think it’s a little more nuanced than that. I think he was suitably traumatized by flying a nuke through a wormhole and it convinced him that a concerted effort was needed to defend the Earth and that didn’t leave room for lone heroes anymore. No doubt he was also traumatized by the collateral damage inflicted in the process and, yes, part of it probably has to do with the guilt from that. PTSD will do that to you.

Yes, he’s looking for ways to alleviate his guilt, but that doesn’t mean it actually will, like a switch in his head, if something happens again, even with the fig leaf of a charter (or whatever) to cover him legally. A degree of irrationality is to be expected given his... condition.

Certainly there is more to him and Captain America both than the one-layer deep treatment that a certain other Disney-owned franchise is doing with its characters.

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And don't forget, in Civil War, Captain America saw the government deploying three large warships whose first duty was to murder anyone that might challenge or even speak up against their order. Yes, it was Hydra doing that, but Hydra was deeply embedded in the government and whose to say that they caught everyone this time? Not to mention what Fury had been up to.

Wait, wait... so you’re telling me that the government is controlled by the Nazis, or rather the same people who controlled the Nazis, and that's why Cap gets to engage in armed rebellion against it? Sounds too far fetched to me, like one of those sovereign citizen conspiracy theories or something. Next thing you know, he’ll be signing his name STEVE ROGERS, all caps, and insisting that liberated him and any subsidiary personalities, trademark notwithstanding.

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(Note that the above is based on the movies, I've not been keeping up on the TV shows or comics.)

And don't forget, in Civil War, Captain America saw the government deploying three large warships whose first duty was to murder anyone that might challenge or even speak up against their order. Yes, it was Hydra doing that, but Hydra was deeply embedded in the government and whose to say that they caught everyone this time? Not to mention what Fury had been up to.

(Note that the above is based on the movies, I've not been keeping up on the TV shows or comics.)

To get the nitpick out of the way, Winter Soldier was the one with the helicarriers, and I think a lot of the people who give Steve grief, greatly underestimate the impact that reveal had on him.

He thought he was on the right side, but it turns out that the organization he was working for, was chock full of Nazis. All along Steve had been working for the very people he froze himself trying to defeat. And that’s leaving out the part where it turns out that they turned his presumably-dead friend, into their tortured, brainwashed pet assassin.

It’s not too surprising that after all this, Steve might have a difficult time with trusting people, especially government officials. Heck when it comes to Civil War, unlike the comic book version where the choices were “Sign or be imprisoned in very inhumane conditions,” the choices in the movie version was “Sign or retire,” and Steve was willing to accept retirement. Were it not for the mess with Bucky, Steve would have retired and stayed retired.

Speaking of Bucky, Sharon was quite clear that the orders regarding Bucky were shoot on sight, which is called summary execution and is considered a major human rights violation. And the organization that declared it to be a human rights violation? It’s the UN, aka the organization who sent the special forces after Bucky and probably gave them the order in the first place. Under those circumstances, can you blame Steve for taking a very dim view of the UN?

Steve’s not completely one hundred percent in the right about everything, but like Tony, he is dealing with some major PTSD/emotional issues, stuff that has massive impact both physically and mentally.

That was what made Civil War leaps and bounds better than the comic book version. Regardless of whose side you were on, you understood why Steve and Tony would make the choices they did, unlike the comic book where Tony basically became Nazi-Tron. In the Team Iron Versus Team Cap debate, I’m more on Team They’re Both Struggling With PTSD and Make Bad Choices As A Result, or Team Shades of Grey to shorten things. Neither of them were completely in the right or in the wrong, just again struggling with massive emotional issues that led to them jumping to conclusions and making horrible mistakes as a result.

I think it’s a little more nuanced than that. I think he was suitably traumatized by flying a nuke through a wormhole and it convinced him that a concerted effort was needed to defend the Earth and that didn’t leave room for lone heroes anymore.

That may be part of it, but he was already doing more and more severe things to assuage his guilt before the Battle for New York.

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Wait, wait... so you’re telling me that the government is controlled by the Nazis, or rather the same people who controlled the Nazis, and that's why Cap gets to engage in armed rebellion against it? Sounds too far fetched to me, like one of those sovereign citizen conspiracy theories or something.

Yeah, next I'll be trying to tell you that Norse mythology is real.

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Originally Posted by Mouse

To get the nitpick out of the way, Winter Soldier was the one with the helicarriers, and I think a lot of the people who give Steve grief, greatly underestimate the impact that reveal had on him.

Right. What I meant was that in Civil War, he was coming off the experience of having had to fight his own government, not that he was doing that fighting during Civil War.

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He thought he was on the right side, but it turns out that the organization he was working for, was chock full of Nazis.

To return the nitpick, the organization wasn't full of Nazis, but full of Hydra. Hydra was just as much of an enemy of the Nazis as the Allies were, they were infiltrating and using Hitler's regime, not assisting it. Have you forgotten, "Berlin is on this map!"?

I've seen flags hanging on houses/flapping on backs of trucks in worse shape than that, and by people who believe they're being patriotic. :/

I guess the way I see it is, the flag is a symbol, so treat it how you will with the understanding of how that symbol is being perceived. Somebody destroying a flag as part of a political statement or art? I get it. I think it can be extremely powerful and shouldn't be done just to be an ***hole, but I understand the intent behind the action. It's the people that display a flag with the intent to convey patriotism and have this sorry beat-to-shreds dirty fabric catching every belch from their tailpipe that bother me.