itazurakko:Well, it's skeptical too. The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. In fact, it's even more a complex (and headache-inducing) issue WHEN talking about someone who is transgender. A FtM transgender who has a "male" brain structure and is attracted to females is not homosexual. His brain is responding the same a male brain would to a female. A MtF transgender who is attracted to males is similarly "straight", despite having a male chromosome and primary sexual features.

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.

Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)

Uh, no, it's not, you delicate little flower. No one is driving people to suicide because they will not accept GLBT people. No one is beating people in the streets, leaving them for dead or outright murdering them because they won't be "accepting" of them. No one is trying to pass legislation which uses the force of state and federal law to not only stifle attempts to prevent discrimination, but actively encourages it.

hardinparamedic:itazurakko: Well, it's skeptical too. The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. In fact, it's even more a complex (and headache-inducing) issue WHEN talking about someone who is transgender. A FtM transgender who has a "male" brain structure and is attracted to females is not homosexual. His brain is responding the same a male brain would to a female. A MtF transgender who is attracted to males is similarly "straight", despite having a male chromosome and primary sexual features.

spentshells: Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.

Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)

Uh, no, it's not, you delicate little flower. No one is driving people to suicide because they will not accept GLBT people. No one is beating people in the streets, leaving them for dead or outright murdering them because they won't be "accepting" of them. No one is trying to pass legislation which uses the force of state and federal law to not only stifle attempts to prevent discrimination, but actively encourages it.

I like being called a delicate little flower, that's nice, thanks..... But if what you were saying was in effect completely true these people wouldn't be parading down the farking street.

Good for them but saying I have to like it or I have the problem is a step in the wrong direction.

I judge person by person and my standards are not terribly hard to fit into for what I deem acceptable.

hardinparamedic:itazurakko: Well, it's skeptical too. The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. In fact, it's even more a complex (and headache-inducing) issue WHEN talking about someone who is transgender. A FtM transgender who has a "male" brain structure and is attracted to females is not homosexual. His brain is responding the same a male brain would to a female. A MtF transgender who is attracted to males is similarly "straight", despite having a male chromosome and primary sexual features.

spentshells: Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.

Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)

Uh, no, it's not, you delicate little flower. No one is driving people to suicide because they will not accept GLBT people. No one is beating people in the streets, leaving them for dead or outright murdering them because they won't be "accepting" of them. No one is trying to pass legislation which uses the force of state and federal law to not only stifle attempts to prevent discrimination, but actively encourages it.

But it absolutely does when you're doing a supposedly blind study, trying to find brain differences in people. You need to rule out "they're just extra gay" or the like, so they should do a study that involves both heterosexual and homosexual people. But they didn't. Bottom line is the sample size for the main study that gets cited from here to forever by the main "brain sex" fans is very small. FWIW they find that the majority of kids who questioned their gender, without treatment, they just grow up to be normal gay people. So, any studies looking for brain differences would need to take it into account.

Then on top of it they're trying to say that some difference in bell curves between "women" and "men" population on some characteristic can be used to say "well, you match the "woman" half so hey congratulations you're a woman in a man's body" or similar.

It's all just very hinky.

But the same studies are used by some to "show" that we should be sex-segregating students in elementary school and that it's "natural" that women don't go into STEM fields. It's bullshiat.

In a sense it's a theory of the mind problem. You can't possibly know what it's like to be "the other sex" mentally or anything else. You know what it's like to be YOU. I can completely buy that people have gender dysphoria and extreme discomfort with their own genitalia. What I don't buy is that they "recognize" that they "think like" people who were born with female sex organs. There's no possible way for them to know that.

If they feel better to have surgery (in our gender policing 2013 world) so they can "pass" as the other sex and so be allowed (the allowing is the part that's a problem, I agree too) to socialize with the other sex, the fine, party on. But the objectification of "this is how women think and I recognized it in myself so I must have a 'woman brain'" yeah that part I have a problem with.

The troll upthread asking about transethnicity brings a good question there, because let's be honest the arguments are 100% identical, except the transethnic people don't have the convenient out of "well, hormones, clearly my brain was transformed."

itazurakko:MrEricSir: That's not really analogous since Napoleon is a specific person. There aren't many things outside of gender where people are pigeonholed into two boxes.

But why should we accept pigeonholing into two boxes?

The whole trans* thing reifies the "gender binary" like nothing else. Heaven forbid we all gender bend, we all just be ourselves and admit that the shape of our junk doesn't need to have fark all to do with how we think or feel or how our personalities are.

No, no! We must have the two boxes, as commonly constructed, but you must put me in the OTHER box!!!

As has already been pointed out in this thread, there are transgender folk and then there are transsexual folk. You are perhaps confusing the two. Transsexuals generally do "reify" or "buy into" the gender binary; but that is not necessarily true of transgender folk in general.

itazurakko:But it absolutely does when you're doing a supposedly blind study, trying to find brain differences in people. You need to rule out "they're just extra gay" or the like, so they should do a study that involves both heterosexual and homosexual people.

Sexual orientation is a DISTINCTLY separate concept than gender. You CANNOT force someone to adopt another gender. It does not work like that.

Identifying with being a female has nothing to do with "being extra gay". It has nothing to do with mannerisms, or just wanting to wear girly clothing, or having a sexual thrill from dressing up in women's clothing.

itazurakko:If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that. But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain works, no matter how annoying or inconvenient you may find it, any more than we're going to "stop with" research into evolution because creationists fit it annoying and inconvenient. Scientific truth (or as close to truth as we can get) must be discovered and made generally known no matter how well or poorly it fits with any person's political agenda or sociopolitical views.

Secondly, while your heart is in the right place, you are unfortunately in your own way as much denying the reality of transsexualism as any "these transwomen are just mentally ill men who mutilate their bodies!" transphobe. Like most human beings, transsexuals (generally speaking, there may be exceptions or caveats I'm overlooking) consider themselves to be completely male or completely female, not "both" or "neither" or "none of the above." That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being "both" or "neither" or "none of the above," but trying to push that identity on transsexuals is, again, ultimately as demeaning as what the garden-variety transphobes say.

Third, why are you so arrogant as to presume that a society without any gender roles whatsoever is what all humans everywhere should strive for? Maybe we WANT gender roles, or at least some of us do. Maybe we, some of us, LIKE them. There's a major difference between saying that an individual should have the freedom to deviate from the expected gender role of the society he or she lives in (on the one hand) and there shouldn't be any roles for anyone, whether they want them or not. Frankly, your presumption is not so much liberating as insulting.

hardinparamedic:Identifying with being a female has nothing to do with "being extra gay". It has nothing to do with mannerisms, or just wanting to wear girly clothing, or having a sexual thrill from dressing up in women's clothing.

So what is it? No one ever has an answer.

As a born woman (with the usual female naughty bits), I'm curious. Particularly given that I've not really matched any "you should do this and that because you're a girl" my entire life up to middle age, I'm very curious. I've never "felt like" a woman per se, I'm told I'm a woman, end of story.

But what I meant by the gay stuff is... often one of the things that people self-reporting that they think they might be trans is, they are attracted to people of the same sex. Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").

ciberido:itazurakko: If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that. But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain works, no matter how annoying or inconvenient you may find it, any more than we're going to "stop with" research into evolution because creationists fit it annoying and inconvenient. Scientific truth (or as close to truth as we can get) must be discovered and made generally known no matter how well or poorly it fits with any person's political agenda or sociopolitical views.

Secondly, while your heart is in the right place, you are unfortunately in your own way as much denying the reality of transsexualism as any "these transwomen are just mentally ill men who mutilate their bodies!" transphobe. Like most human beings, transsexuals (generally speaking, there may be exceptions or caveats I'm overlooking) consider themselves to be completely male or completely female, not "both" or "neither" or "none of the above." That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being "both" or "neither" or "none of the above," but trying to push that identity on transsexuals is, again, ultimately as demeaning as what the garden-variety transphobes say.

Third, why are you so arrogant as to presume that a society without any gender roles whatsoever is what all humans everywhere should strive for? Maybe we WANT gender roles, or at least some of us do. Maybe we, some of us, LIKE them. There's a major difference between saying that an individual should have the freedom to deviate from the expected gender role of the society he or she lives in (on the one hand) and there shouldn't be any roles for anyone, whether they want them or not. Frankly, your presumption is not so much liberating as insulting.

You do realize, that trans folks have been around for a while, right? In more than a few Native American cultures, as well as a few Asian societies, and they weren't just accepted, but in many cases, exalted.

The funny thing about nature is that one of the big rules seems to be variation. It's not about everyone being the same. Nature tends to throw us curves all the time. Myself, I've got a whole extra vertebrae. Weird stuff happens. All the time. Gender roles developed, and are often reinforced, but that doesn't mean that folks are looking to throw all of them away when they talk about not being hide bound to them, in all cases. Some of these roles are actually still working themselves out. Things change. Things don't always conform to expectations, and that isn't so much about "progress" as much as the general order of the Universe. Variation occurs. Variation is a fairly large rule. Deviance from expectations happen in all societies. Some of that deviation is on a positive note--like charity in the case of the US. Yes, we all say that we like to be giving, but then you look around you, and realize, that while the ideal is something to strive for, we don't all hit the mark. Likewise, we say being a backstabbing, lying weasel is a bad thing, and yet, we find ourselves sometimes doing it. Human behavior is not set into stone. It does fall into patterns, and many folks find themselves within statistical averages, but then again, folks likewise outside those patterns as well.

We have in this discussion, have folks who are adamant about what gender roles should be. The conforming to expectations is desirable. The problem is, humans don't always conform, and looking to "fix" folks who don't conform...well, that leads to some hinkey places. Like, say, "homosexual re-education" which I think that many of us might agree, leads to some bad places. There will be folks who pipe wise and say that it's fine, and Because Jeebus! and that is again, variation only confirming itself. People are often dicks, and would really like it if others could be dicks JUST like them, because when you're an outlier, it gets weird what with folks looking at you and pointing.

Variation happens. It will continue to happen, until we lock ourselves up in synthetic bodies, and only reproduce consciousness by programming algorithms, and even then, variation is still going to rear it's ugly head, because that is the only way to keep a society from becoming static.

Trans folks have served roles in many societies over the years. Some actually positive, and even revered. We are in the process of maybe learning a thing or two about not being dicks about gender issues, and looking to follow my mother's peoples' example, about the nail being hammered down--and even THEY found ways of accepting folks who had trans issues.

You don't have to like, or agree with folks' reasons for looking to transition. You don't have to seek out trans folks to be friends with. The only thing you might want to do, is maybe dial back a bit on being a dick about it. Less dickishness is all folks are looking for. Judge all you want in private, but maybe remember back in gradeschool, when you got undressed in the locker room and folks giggled at your wang or your bewbs--or lack of them--and realize that yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that you didn't like, and it's pretty much the same thing again, only writ a bit more public. All folks are asking is for you to be less of a douche.

Bumblefark:hardinparamedic: Their brain is female, even though their external sex organs are male; or vice versa.

Eh...maybe you should read your own citations.

"The key finding was that on average, the MtF brains were not like the female ones. There were some significant differences from the male brains, but they weren't the same differences that distinguished the females from the males."

Yeah. I did read my own citation. It's a criticism of that study, as well as pointing out they released a seemingly contradictory study based on responses to steroid compounds that stimulate and evoke responses based on sex.

Because the issue itsself is NOT fully understood to begin with. You're wanting an easy answer when there is none. It doesn't boil down to environment or learning, it does not boil down to genetics, or epigenetic factors alone. It's only in the last 30 years we've even had tools to do so, and the investigation of transgendered individuals from a scientific and biological perspective does not rank very high on the research funding totem pole at the moment. What we DO know, however, is that gender is something that cannot be changed once it's cemented - in fact, we have over a hundred years of horror stories of ambiguous genitalia and intersexed children who were forced to live as the gender they were not to base that from. Forcing someone to attempt to conform to a gender they cannot identify with causes immense psychological and psychiatric harm - to the point of a person actively trying to harm themselves because of it. This is not even something that is debated among the psychiatric community - and the source of psychological harm and distress in transgendered individuals is not as a result of being transgendered, but rather the issues with access to adequate treatment for their condition.

itazurakko:But what I meant by the gay stuff is... often one of the things that people self-reporting that they think they might be trans is, they are attracted to people of the same sex. Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").

Because it does not work like that. Being a transgender is NOT the same thing as being homosexual. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this. It's not some offbeat defense mechanism the mind comes up with to justify liking the same sex, or to try to fit into a female role in their society.

hardinparamedic:Bumblefark: hardinparamedic: Their brain is female, even though their external sex organs are male; or vice versa.

Eh...maybe you should read your own citations.

"The key finding was that on average, the MtF brains were not like the female ones. There were some significant differences from the male brains, but they weren't the same differences that distinguished the females from the males."

Yeah. I did read my own citation. It's a criticism of that study, as well as pointing out they released a seemingly contradictory study based on responses to steroid compounds that stimulate and evoke responses based on sex.

Thank you for trying to point that out, however.

Welcome.

Yeah, that's a pretty stunning critique, when it ends with the conclusion, "I have no idea how, or if, the brains of MtF transsexuals are 'feminized' but this study doesn't rule it out." And, certainly, a counter-point to be given equal weight as a peer-reviewed, scientific publication.

Bumblefark:Yeah, that's a pretty stunning critique, when it ends with the conclusion, "I have no idea how, or if, the brains of MtF transsexuals are 'feminized' but this study doesn't rule it out." And, certainly, a counter-point to be given equal weight as a peer-reviewed, scientific publication.

Yeah, because Discover Magazine is exactly the same as Natural News, and someone who is a well known skeptical blogger for neuroscience and psychiatry is the same thing as Mike Adams.

omeganuepsilon:Bigots will see it as a challenge, an insult, not as a demonstration of fact. You shouldn't "challenge" them to accept you, you should "convince" them.

There are people who are bigots, and then there are people who are prejudiced for various reasons (they are uneducated, inexperienced, indoctrinated, etc). The bigots are not the target... nothing you do will ever convince a bigot to accept you. But by standing up to the bigot instead of hiding in the closet, you have a shot at convincing the non-bigots that the bigots are wrong, and that you're worth just as much as any other person. I'm not trans, but I'm pretty sure that's the point of Pride.

Threadjack: It's kind of like what we're always talking about in the atheism threads. When your worldview is fundamentally based upon tribalism and conformity, no amount of civility or placating (short of complete silence) will ever be enough because the very existence of someone who is "other" is offensive. Hence the The signs on buses that say "There's probably no god, stop worrying and live your life" aren't aimed at the theists... they're aimed at the people whose minds are still open.

hubiestubert:The only thing you might want to do, is maybe dial back a bit on being a dick about it. Less dickishness is all folks are looking for. Judge all you want in private, but maybe remember back in gradeschool, when you got undressed in the locker room and folks giggled at your wang or your bewbs--or lack of them--and realize that yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that you didn't like, and it's pretty much the same thing again, only writ a bit more public. All folks are asking is for you to be less of a douche.

Bravo.

Easier said than done though. Too bad it runs counter for people to want to actually change eachother, and there are those on any side of the many fences out there.

hardinparamedic:Because it does not work like that. Being a transgender is NOT the same thing as being homosexual. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this. It's not some offbeat defense mechanism the mind comes up with to justify liking the same sex, or to try to fit into a female role in their society.

There are some that do fall into that as a rough category though. That's why a "genuine" trans goes through so much counseling before they're covered and allowed surgeries, to make sure it is what is needed and right for them. It'd be terrible to come off of an acid bender and find your parts mixed around a bit.

No, it's not just being gay that does it. But as noted just up a couple posts, variation does come out, some people have some serious mental issues, and treatment for them won't work like it does for others. People of all orientations can fall into traps in thinking, or obsessions, or mental/physical trauma that can lead them into some very disturbing places making them think in just such a similar fashion.

People can falsely self identify as trans, and some of them may be better off actually treated for it anyhow. You hint at it yourself right above that. People can become severely messed up, or get worse over time because of other factors.

There is no limit really to the things that can go wrong with the brain or what it can fool itself into believing is real.

ciberido:itazurakko: If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that. But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain work

It sounded to me like "Please stop giving excuses that sound like nonesense" and they do, when crunched down into layman's terms. It didn't sound like "Please stop science"

Best to find a good link, and link it.

I've seen almost as much misinformation on this side of the fense as conservatives spout on the the other. I too wish it would stop./very pro science//just anti- ignorant explanation

hardinparamedic:Bumblefark: Yeah, that's a pretty stunning critique, when it ends with the conclusion, "I have no idea how, or if, the brains of MtF transsexuals are 'feminized' but this study doesn't rule it out." And, certainly, a counter-point to be given equal weight as a peer-reviewed, scientific publication.

Yeah, because Discover Magazine is exactly the same as Natural News, and someone who is a well known skeptical blogger for neuroscience and psychiatry is the same thing as Mike Adams.

*eyeroll*

These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

These findings provide further evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men.

Oh noes...the eyeroll. The protest of upset 15 year old girls, everywhere. Somehow, I think I just might be able to survive this.

Neither of those quotes supports the claim (that you explicitly made) that the transgendered individual is has a mind of one gender, and the body of another. Which was the exact same point in the study you seem to not want to talk about anymore.

Z-clipped:But by standing up to the bigot instead of hiding in the closet

I don't recommend backing down and staying in the closet, just to be clear.

I recommend not meeting them toe to toe and trading equal blows. I reccomend a different strategy, a different game. That specific tactic can't win, going toe to toe like oldschool boxers that take turns hitting each other in the head just to see who falls down first.

It's like fighting an army of superior numbers. If you go 1v1, you will lose, may not even slow them down much.

Eat away at their supply lines, run a positive PR campaign. If the undecideds like your message better, if they see that you're not specifically mean to individuals, if they see that you reach out to them and can identify with them, that there are more important things in life, that if they stay out of the war they'll not be impacted at all, you'll do far better that way, if they understand that they may even benefit, then you're sure to win them over.

Replaying out Hatfields & Mccoys doesn't work.

It may strengthen your bonds as a group itself, help form a united front, but it can make you look just as bad as the opposition. That's what people from the outside commonly see. 2 assholes yelling at eachother. That outsider shrugs and goes back to his TV or WoW or Angry Birds.

hardinparamedic:Bumblefark: As a matter of fact, one source (at least), seems to contradict it.

You left out the rest of that statement.

[i.imgur.com image 703x319]

Eh...which sentence would you like to parse?

Note that neither one supports the claim you made. Is "larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen" characteristic of female brains? I personally don't know, but "larger volume" is usually associated with males, not females. The second sentence has nothing to do with our exchange -- I never argued that brain anatomy isn't involved.

omeganuepsilon:It may strengthen your bonds as a group itself, help form a united front, but it can make you look just as bad as the opposition. That's what people from the outside commonly see. 2 assholes yelling at eachother. That outsider shrugs and goes back to his TV or WoW or Angry Birds.

I think that for a person to look at a group like transpeople, who have been marginalized, ostracized, and generally spit upon by a large chunk of American society, walking down the street in a parade proclaiming pride in their identity and think "those people are just as bad as the bigots"... well, I think that person would have to be a pretty enormous asshole for starters.

Z-clipped:I think that for a person to look at a group like transpeople, who have been marginalized, ostracized, and generally spit upon by a large chunk of American society, walking down the street in a parade proclaiming pride in their identity and think "those people are just as bad as the bigots"... well, I think that person would have to be a pretty enormous asshole for starters.

Well, just look at them, all happy and stuff...not even caring for a moment that they make me feel all icky (and vaguely aroused) on my inside parts.

well in my case I kinda get to cheat the very premise since I'm bi, so there's no thinking of gender and being found attractive as was suggested. But I've never thought in terms of my own gender being tied to my sexuality. Or vice versa. Indeed I figured out the gender side of things well before puberty and thinking of sexuality at all.

If you're going to jump in mid conversation and be indignant, fark it, I'm not responding to any points you think you've made, obvious re-directs and straw men that they are. Read all of my posts in the thread, comprehend them, then repost. At that point you'll have a clue, I know you're a reasonable sort( I know specifically you will understand, because when you Boobiesed you said a lot of the same things I already said), and I won't then have a desire to shiat on your inept trolling replies.

omeganuepsilon:If you're going to jump in mid conversation and be indignant, fark it, I'm not responding to any points you think you've made, obvious re-directs and straw men that they are. Read all of my posts in the thread, comprehend them, then repost. At that point you'll have a clue, I know you're a reasonable sort( I know specifically you will understand, because when you Boobiesed you said a lot of the same things I already said), and I won't then have a desire to shiat on your inept trolling replies.

The majority of your posts in this thread are how it's either "pointless" to stand up to bigots and bullies - but if you have to, you should be nice about it and "take the moral high ground" or ignore them - even though speaking out against it makes you the bad guy "like them". Ignoring of course, the real-world costs of silence and the suffering it causes not just transgender, but anyone who is not part of the "normal" status quo.

Seriously. These are ALL your posts. You protest standing up against people who view TG/TS individuals as less than human beings far too much for someone who claims to have no dog in this hunt.

And then, a whole lot of trash about "redirects" and "strawmen" when people have called you out over this. These are your own words, omega, in this thread. Nothing but excuses for why people should be complacent little victims for those who would take advantage and harm them.

The rest is more of the same, only with a lot more fabrication and separation from what I actually said. You seek to twist what I said into what you think you can easily show as wrong, and then ridicule.[The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. ]Coupled with an attempt to curry favor with an Appeal to Spite.

Typical tricks of one who will not be swayed, the group that zclipped and I both talked about. The last straw for those that cannot argue intellectually. And no, I am not insulting you, I'm demonstrating how flawed and broken your supposed points are.

Sometimes I think that some of the hate comes from people being jealous that someone else has either a)something to be proud about | or | b) have a community to be a member of.

I feel, with no proof or even support, just this feeling that a lot of people that would be around the center of that bell curve, on ANY social issue, feel themselves empty, or insubstantial. I am a white hetereosexual Native born male. In our modern digital society of everything being categorized and put into a pulldown menu or a radial button, I feel, and it very well could just be me, being my only test subject, that increased personal isolation makes one feel less relevant and diminishes our individuality and sense of worth. So If I, who doesn't get to check any boxes or pull-down any menus am more predisposed to be a dick, which i am not, my own emptiness feeding feelings of envy could act as a catalyst and push me a little bit towards thinking those people belong to something, I don't. I wish I belonged to something. But even though that is what occuring, it is much easier for me to not address these issues and just say "I hate it when those [insert pejorative] are alway making a big scene. Who do they think they are?

I think is for any group that has congregated for some public reason. Not to mention the volatile issue of sexuality and gender. I think, as a man, you have to honestly face yourself and ask yourself, and accept the answer, Am I gay? If you say yes, your gay, if no your not. But if that self confrontation isn't done honestly and fully, heterosexual men will have that little seed of insecurity which can grow if not weeded. And can become something that polarizes them even more of the issues of sexuality and gender. Which, in truth, should should be nothing that concerns them. But if they don't know for sure that they aren't gay, and this is most men imho, exposure to people that are declaring, proudly, that they ARE gay or transgendered or whatever can be a big threat to themselves. Seeing the group the viewer's own insecurites could arise and think "I think I'm not gay. pretty sure. maybe. ugh. but those people, they know they ARE gay (realizing of course, in a hetrosexual's mind gay kinda gets used as a blanket term for a wide, range of sexuality and gender issues) The man we are speaking of can't even address his own sexuality on the surface, he doesnt want to even question if he is or isnt gay, because there is a chance he might answer with a yes. So all of that anxiety if not addressed, can become fear and his self defence turns it to hate. And I believe this is what is called homophobia. So ad hominem attacks against people that have these issues, you just them for hate they display, are in a way a lazy way to make your life easier.

I am not saying that people being hateful are right. They are the antithesis of right. But they are almost programmed to hate, they themselves need it badly to help shore up, or ignore their own issues.

I guess my point is that NO ONE, isn't a beautiful and unique snowflake, but they we all are equally mind boggling complex creatures. That Nuclear family of the 50's even though they did nothing of significance, still experienced and had to deal with every second of their lives, and as no one has any previous experience of things they have not yet experienced, each moment is continually added to all of the previous moments in their specific life, creating the person that they are right now.

Or in other words, Everyone is continuously struggling, but some peoples issues are more visible, and those people aren't allowed the comfort to suffer in private. Their struggle is a visible one. So they have to suffer publicly. And no matter what you think, no one would put themselves through all of that public pain and discomfort voluntarily. that the know can be seen, and also know other people will notice.

SO I guess like I said, because I am confident that I am the orientation and gender I am, people of other orientations and gender IDs don't threaten me, I have never dwelled on the subject long enough for it to be something that I hold any strong view on. I am me and all that entails, and others are themselves with all of their own unique details. We all are suffering, we are all in our own unique pain, waiting for some speck of happiness to distract for a little bit from our condition. The universal human condition. Think this is really how everyone is equal and the same. This is our first time living now, and the uncomfortable future that is unknown, is a little scary. So don't be a dick. Everyone can just barely deal with all their own incredibly detailed life. Don't be a vampire and feed your emptyness by increasing someone elses pain.

OR not.. this is just what came out of my head, stream of consciousness style when I asked myself, "What do you honestly think about all of this?" (and sleep deprivation has contributed significantly, im sure)

Leishu:RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.

As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours. Check my profile for my email. I've got some fun stories about those organizations too and those who they "can't" help, too.

RKade:Leishu: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.

As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours. Check my profile for my email. I've got some fun stories about those organizations too and those who they "can't" help, too.

Until today, I thought "handicapible" was only a word George Carlin created in a bit mocking the stupidity of PC jargon.

RKade:As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours.

I don't support your sinful lifestyle choice. You did not have to join the crips, you chose to be that way.

You asked a question. I provided an accurate answer. You obviously have issues which drive you to make it personal. I apologize for using a tern you find offensive. I have heard the same about 'cripple' so I will try to find a better word. it is a shame that your status as one such individual seems to have eliminated your ability to conduct a civil, logical discussion, though. You have my sympathy.

Furthermore, Rkade, you seem to be under the impression that your hardship somehow invalidates the claim that Transgendered folk also go through hardship. if you are such a repugnant individual that you feel the need to make the horrid things that happen to people some sort of competition, I think I'll let the opportunity to learn more about you pass. You have already made it plain that your only interest is in argument by your own refusal to address my post with anything shortbof vitriol. I prefer to learn more about interesting, lively people, not spiteful douchebags.

RKade:I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

itazurakko:In a sense it's a theory of the mind problem. You can't possibly know what it's like to be "the other sex" mentally or anything else. You know what it's like to be YOU. I can completely buy that people have gender dysphoria and extreme discomfort with their own genitalia. What I don't buy is that they "recognize" that they "think like" people who were born with female sex organs. There's no possible way for them to know that.

itazurakko:As a born woman (with the usual female naughty bits), I'm curious. Particularly given that I've not really matched any "you should do this and that because you're a girl" my entire life up to middle age, I'm very curious. I've never "felt like" a woman per se, I'm told I'm a woman, end of story.

Precisely. For most people the body and mind are predominantly aligned, so they never have cause to seriously question their gender. You've never not "felt like" a woman. For trans people it's practically impossible to not question their gender. As a result, those who are cisgender cannot understand what it's really like to be transgender, and those who are transgender cannot understand what it's really like to be cisgender.

As for the theory of the mind aspect, it isn't so binary. Say you're very young, growing up: you and others recognize that your thoughts and behaviors are atypical "for your gender." There are a lot of possibilities at this point. It could be that you're transsexual, it could be that you're just exploring gender in the way that children experiment and incorporate data into their psyche, it may be that you're homosexual (although I'm not sure that kind of thing is evident so early on), et cetera. In my opinion, the best approach for parents, doctors, and others is to take a conservative tack and try not to interfere or influence overmuch. The true situation--and proper diagnosis--should become evident before too long, and I'd venture that most of the time things will resolve themselves and you, the child in question, will turn out not to be transgender (because it's less common than the others).

Add into the mix the confusion that socialization can, erm, engender as one grows up and experiences life. The longer a transsexual person is perceived as and urged to present and behave as the "incorrect" gender, the less "normal" socialization he or she gets, regardless of whatever inherent physical brain differences there are. In this sense, socialization parallels the more apparent physiological changes of puberty. How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.

Above, I suggested that it's practically impossible for someone who's transgender to understand what it's really like to be cisgender, but perhaps if transition were (responsibly) effected early enough, the fallout from "the wrong puberty" and prolonged "improper socialization" would nearly eliminate that seemingly vast gulf. It certainly would minimize it.