The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

Spence & her partner have an indefensible situation. When will people wake up and realize this woman is a crook. She is stealing not only from the members of her own Band but from every taxpayer in the country.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Listercat wrote:Spence & her partner have an indefensible situation. When will people wake up and realize this woman is a crook. She is stealing not only from the members of her own Band but from every taxpayer in the country.

The trouble is impeaching spence and canning that idiot boyfriend, who can't see the freaking conflict of interest with a stick and three guide dogs, won't solve the issue of what and how to deal with the morality here.

These are First Nations and we have Legal responsibilities and we can't just relocate people like it was the trail of tears all over again. People have to have somewhere to go as well.

A real solution is needed here not rhetoric ( not that I'm accusing you specifically listercat)

Listercat wrote:Spence & her partner have an indefensible situation. When will people wake up and realize this woman is a crook. She is stealing not only from the members of her own Band but from every taxpayer in the country.

i'd bet money she's eating while on her "hunger strike" every chance she gets. A total fraudster,I hope the government doesn't cave in to this B.S. and rams the third party administration down their throats

Spence has completely discredited herself. She knew the contents of the audit and she knew that the government had to release it by Jan 16th.

The media has deserted her, the AFN is isolating her. Would a forensic audit likely followed by a criminal investigation gain anything other than revenge and possibly a warning to other Bands? To me it seems like it would be an expensive boon doggle.

I suspect she and Clay won't be too welcome back home.

The fact that Idle No More was so intertwined, whether real or media perceived is meaningless, that movement has suffered. They have been shown to be stuck in the past.

What has come about is some very frank public discussion of a way forward and a jump start for the goal of individual title on reserve lands for Bands that do have their financial ducks in a row.

That still leaves Attawaskat as a mess. Probably with a manager imposed by Abo Affairs (AA, how ironic), Fed money and DeBeers money still rolling in. Poor bastards. Hopefully the last one out of town turns the lights off.

Reading the news coverage on Attawapiskat doesn't feel very healthy sometimes. There are so many racist rants and outright ignorant responses that it can bog you down. Where do you even begin, when the people making these comments do not seem to understand even the bare minimum about the subject?

Well, you can try to answer questions with facts. Here are some of those facts, if you're interested.

Reading the news coverage on Attawapiskat doesn't feel very healthy sometimes. There are so many racist rants and outright ignorant responses that it can bog you down. Where do you even begin, when the people making these comments do not seem to understand even the bare minimum about the subject?

Well, you can try to answer questions with facts. Here are some of those facts, if you're interested.

Half truths from a half breed.

Ms. Vowel is making some very strong arguments for the very changes being brought in by the Harper government at the request of the AFN to allow spending by Bands and leasing of Band lands to generate revenue without having to seek Abo Affairs approval. The same changes that raise the Idle Some More folks to drumming on bridges and rail lines.

Much of the needs for maintaining housing should to be passed from the Band to the Band member living in the house and individual property rights is the way to go with that. Let the Band member take ownership of his house and not relay on others clean up after him.

Ms. Vowel says the $90 million number is being misused. It is not. The recently received audit is clear that the amount is for the term 2005 to 20011.

Ms. Vowel claims that Teresa Spence's salary and personal expenses are questioned. The commentators I have read actually commend her very reasonable expenses and Band salary as Chief. Than the $8000/mo she gets for her daycare has been questioned by Ezra Lavant. The $850/day + expenses Clay Kennedy collects is questioned as is his expenses is questioned. (his contract laughably states "Both parties [the band and Mr. Kennedy] are not aware of any past or present relationship between the First Nation and the Co-Manager that may be thought to be a conflict of interest." The conflict of interest, having Chief Spence and her boyfriend Clay Kennedy handling the purse strings is questioned. Having 21 people on the Band council without job descriptions is questioned.

Ms. Vowel brings up the Auditor Generals comment on the onerous paperwork required by Federal funding agencies that documents expenses may be ignored when submitted. I think the Delloitte audit shows that that documentation is not ignored. It also shows, as Ms. Vowel admits, the documentation is rarely done.

The recent audit is not the first time these issues have been raised. They are raised annually by the Bands own auditors. They repeated told the Band that accounting procedures were not in order, that a budget was not done. As many commentators have noted, the fact the Band produces annual audited financial statements does not mean the their books are in order. Ms. Vowel does not agree.

Ms. Vowel talks of all the services the Band needs to provide for from the Federal funding. She ignores the $1.3 million from Health Canada, and the $4.7 million from the Ontario Government and the $3.4 million from the Casino in Orillia.

The Band also owns Attawapiskat Resources Inc which provides catering services to DeBeers' Victor mine and has joint ventures with the helicopter services, the explosives contractor, the drilling contractor, the security company and others. The Band also owns Attawapiskat Power Inc which provides electricity to the community.

If providing local education is too difficult for all these smaller Bands, maybe the government should step in a provide boarding schools for Native students in some larger centres. I'm sure a caring group like the Catholic Church that is already involved in education could be brought in to manage the schools.

In closing Ms. Vowel makes the same mistake Teresa Spence makes. She compares the Chief of a small Band to the same level as a Provincial Premier or the Prime Minister. She is not. She is the equivalent to the Mayor of a town of 1500 people. (One of her spinners, Danny Metatawabin has compared her to Jesus) Which leads to the one thing Ms. Vowel is correct on. Barrick will not be asking Ms. Spence to join their board.

Is what is meant by the phrase "I'd like to buy a Vowel?'

For all of Chief Spence's grandstanding and demanding to meet with the PM and the GG, even sending a letter to the Queen requesting she order the GG to meet because negotiations date back to pre-confederation, Attawaspiskat did not enter a treaty agreement until 1930.More than eighty years after Confederation.

Topper wrote:Much of the needs for maintaining housing should to be passed from the Band to the Band member living in the house and individual property rights is the way to go with that. Let the Band member take ownership of his house and not relay on others clean up after him.

Just wondering how you would ensure a just dispersal of reserve lands to individuals? as you know some land is worth a lot more than others. I can foresee a lot of crooked dealing going on in a free for all, and what about disputes?

From my understanding there is a lot of bitterness over the shenanigans surrounding the land used along the highway in westbank/west kelowna. well connected individuals within the band making side deals and grabbing usage rights to land that, tada! walmart has signed a contract to build a box store on....

"During our audit, we noted that many general journal entries made had no supporting documents. When asked for explanations of the entries, often, none could be provided. This resulted in additional work being needed in order to substantiate amounts in several accounts.

"Not all payments were applied to the accounts payable sub-ledger, and invoices were not recorded properly."

"During the current fiscal year, budgets were not compiled.

"We note that the collection of accounts and funding receivables are often in arrears. In fact, in many cases, collection efforts are not made until cash flows are in crisis situations."

and to be fair

"policies and procedures have been implemented which improved many of the deficiencies mentioned."

But that would have been after the Feds stepped in a year ago.

The fact remains, Attawapsikat is a mismanaged financial mess and Spence and her boyfriend need to eat some of the blame for that.

Ms Vowell is certainly not an objective analyzer. She ignores fact except where it suits her assertions.

An entity that handles millions of $ if they are to have any financial control MUST prepare and strive to meet annual budgets. In BC municipalities, Regional Districts, School Districts and Health Authorities have to submit Budgets or they receive no funding. I believe they not allowed to run deficits either. If Bands do not have the expertise themselves to prepare budgets they can get assistance from the accounting firms that do the annual audits. The history at Attawapiskat indicates that Ms Spence and cronies believe they have an "entitlement" but no responsibility for fiscal management. Spence has no credibility with anyone who can read for themselves. She has gone all in and has nothing in her hand.

With regard to the Westbank Band, while there may be some jealousy about some of the development one would have to research the facts before pointing fingers. I lived in Westbank in the late 80's-early 90's before the major development took place. I know some parcels were owned by individuals but I don't know how that came about. I can say that there were no Band members living in tents while the Chief & Council drove Caddys. The Band had its own Forestry and Construction Company which they used to train members. The biggest problem they had was Stewart Phillips ( Chief in Penticton) stirring up shit.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "