Author
Topic: I do not believe in shaking hands. (Read 18949 times)

That seems so strange to me, coming from a religious tradition that forbade contact between the sexes (except when married, and only when the woman was "ritually pure").

Is gender commingling and flirtation not a primary concern? In my opinion, some healthy exposure to the opposite sex probably makes a regular young man well-balanced and temperate, but I would think that the authorities would want to minimize "distractions."

That seems so strange to me, coming from a religious tradition that forbade contact between the sexes (except when married, and only when the woman was "ritually pure").

Is gender commingling and flirtation not a primary concern? In my opinion, some healthy exposure to the opposite sex probably makes a regular young man well-balanced and temperate, but I would think that the authorities would want to minimize "distractions."

It is not that much of a problem. The parish is really small, local and everyone knows each other. Most of the young people were raised together and everything, so everything is more platonic rather than flirtatious. They see each other as friends or cousins rather than romantic partners. However, for me, since I was the new guy it was kind of different since I didn't know them; they weren't like my close friends to me whom I have no romantic attraction to, they were just a few attractive young women.

Also, did you say that Judaism or Orthodoxy used to forbid any contact between the sexes? How far was this taken? I mean, could people even have platonic relationships or socialize with the opposite gender at all? Even outside of the Church/Synagogue?

That seems so strange to me, coming from a religious tradition that forbade contact between the sexes (except when married, and only when the woman was "ritually pure").

Is gender commingling and flirtation not a primary concern? In my opinion, some healthy exposure to the opposite sex probably makes a regular young man well-balanced and temperate, but I would think that the authorities would want to minimize "distractions."

It is not that much of a problem. The parish is really small, local and everyone knows each other. Most of the young people were raised together and everything, so everything is more platonic rather than flirtatious. They see each other as friends or cousins rather than romantic partners. However, for me, since I was the new guy it was kind of different since I didn't know them; they weren't like my close friends to me whom I have no romantic attraction to, they were just a few attractive young women.

Also, did you say that Judaism or Orthodoxy used to forbid any contact between the sexes? How far was this taken? I mean, could people even have platonic relationships or socialize with the opposite gender at all? Even outside of the Church/Synagogue?

I come from Orthodox Judaism. In the synagogue, there is a physical barrier called a mechitza that keeps the men and women separated. Usually, men and women sit on the same level, in which case a mechitza looks like this:

However, women sometimes sit a level above the men; in that case, they can see the men but the men can't see them. In this picture, the women are sitting behind the top windows. If you were standing in the men's section, you would only see their silhouettes.

Physical contact is always forbidden between the sexes. Only immediate family members are allowed to touch each other. Additionally, if a women is menstruating, she is considered impure and the husband cannot touch her until she is clean for seven days and bathes in a ritual bath.

Talking to the other sex was not explicitly forbidden, but many rabbis wrote about the evils of associating too much with women. Boys and girls attend different schools and in some communities, meet only during "made for marriage" dates where their parents chaperone. It really depends on how traditional versus how "modern" the community is, but in most cases, men stick with men and women stick with women.

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

Are there any moments when you actually can associate with women outside of a marriage? Any special festivals, dances, events etc? There's got to be some special occasion where Judaism permits contact.

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

Are there any moments when you actually can associate with women outside of a marriage? Any special festivals, dances, events etc? There's got to be some special occasion where Judaism permits contact.

No. In fact, at weddings, men and women are completely separated by a large screen. Men eat dinner on one side, women on the other. Of course, no one's going to complain if a wife goes to the other side to ask her husband something, but men are not supposed to watch women dance and vice versa.

Again, it's not like in practice, there's no associating. In small or medium gatherings, men and women sit together to eat (although usually they're spaced apart so that there will be no accidental touching). And there were times when I rode in a car alone with a woman. But in general, the policy is to separate; if you spend time with your wife, you should do so only in moderation:

Pirkei Avot 1:5: "He who talks too much with women brings evil upon himself and neglects the study of the Torah and will in the end inherit Gehenna [purgatory]."

Also, did you say that Judaism or Orthodoxy used to forbid any contact between the sexes? How far was this taken? I mean, could people even have platonic relationships or socialize with the opposite gender at all? Even outside of the Church/Synagogue?

Orthodox Christianity never forbade contact between the sexes. Until fairly recently (and still maintained in some places) women and men stood on separate sides of the Church during services (thus Fr. Aidan's comment about when the kiss of peace was still a common lay practice, the only people standing next to you to be kissed would be of the same sex).

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great

Does anybody think that this conversation is getting silly? That it no longer fits in FFA-RT? Well, I do and I am going to move it unless someone convinces me otherwise. Thanks, Second Chance

I think you should combine this with the Renunciation of Christianity thread and the Renunciation of Renunciations of the Great Platypus thread and rename the lot of them "Random Postings II" and move them to FFA-NRT so that both that section and Other Topics have a Random Postings thread. That way Random Postings can be for semisensical Random Posts and this one can be for nonsensical topics. I think it would be good for the forum to have a place for the insane to rant. Hyperdox Herman agrees with me.

Does anybody think that this conversation is getting silly? That it no longer fits in FFA-RT? Well, I do and I am going to move it unless someone convinces me otherwise. Thanks, Second Chance

I think you should combine this with the Renunciation of Christianity thread and the Renunciation of Renunciations of the Great Platypus thread and rename the lot of them "Random Postings II" and move them to FFA-NRT so that both that section and Other Topics have a Random Postings thread. That way Random Postings can be for semisensical Random Posts and this one can be for nonsensical topics. I think it would be good for the forum to have a place for the insane to rant. Hyperdox Herman agrees with me.

I renounce this thread.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

Are there any moments when you actually can associate with women outside of a marriage? Any special festivals, dances, events etc? There's got to be some special occasion where Judaism permits contact.

No. In fact, at weddings, men and women are completely separated by a large screen. Men eat dinner on one side, women on the other. Of course, no one's going to complain if a wife goes to the other side to ask her husband something, but men are not supposed to watch women dance and vice versa.

Again, it's not like in practice, there's no associating. In small or medium gatherings, men and women sit together to eat (although usually they're spaced apart so that there will be no accidental touching). And there were times when I rode in a car alone with a woman. But in general, the policy is to separate; if you spend time with your wife, you should do so only in moderation:

Pirkei Avot 1:5: "He who talks too much with women brings evil upon himself and neglects the study of the Torah and will in the end inherit Gehenna [purgatory]."

whoah, Jew's believe in purgatory? Tell me more! BTW, i'm a huge Coltrane fan. Have you heard of this church?

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

Are there any moments when you actually can associate with women outside of a marriage? Any special festivals, dances, events etc? There's got to be some special occasion where Judaism permits contact.

No. In fact, at weddings, men and women are completely separated by a large screen. Men eat dinner on one side, women on the other. Of course, no one's going to complain if a wife goes to the other side to ask her husband something, but men are not supposed to watch women dance and vice versa.

Again, it's not like in practice, there's no associating. In small or medium gatherings, men and women sit together to eat (although usually they're spaced apart so that there will be no accidental touching). And there were times when I rode in a car alone with a woman. But in general, the policy is to separate; if you spend time with your wife, you should do so only in moderation:

Pirkei Avot 1:5: "He who talks too much with women brings evil upon himself and neglects the study of the Torah and will in the end inherit Gehenna [purgatory]."

whoah, Jew's believe in purgatory? Tell me more! BTW, i'm a huge Coltrane fan. Have you heard of this church?

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

Are there any moments when you actually can associate with women outside of a marriage? Any special festivals, dances, events etc? There's got to be some special occasion where Judaism permits contact.

No. In fact, at weddings, men and women are completely separated by a large screen. Men eat dinner on one side, women on the other. Of course, no one's going to complain if a wife goes to the other side to ask her husband something, but men are not supposed to watch women dance and vice versa.

Again, it's not like in practice, there's no associating. In small or medium gatherings, men and women sit together to eat (although usually they're spaced apart so that there will be no accidental touching). And there were times when I rode in a car alone with a woman. But in general, the policy is to separate; if you spend time with your wife, you should do so only in moderation:

Pirkei Avot 1:5: "He who talks too much with women brings evil upon himself and neglects the study of the Torah and will in the end inherit Gehenna [purgatory]."

whoah, Jew's believe in purgatory? Tell me more! BTW, i'm a huge Coltrane fan. Have you heard of this church?

From what I understand, it's not the exactly the same thing as what Roman Catholics believe. Basically, when you die, unless you were a truly righteous person who never sinned (or reached a level of holiness where your sins were fully cleansed in your life), you end up in a "limbo" phase where your soul gets refined for "the world to come" (heaven). It's not really a place specifically for people who have committed lesser sins, or uncircumcised babies, etc. According to Rabbinic tradition, everyone stays for a maximum of one year (and they don't have to suffer on the Sabbath!), except for five people who are there for eternity (they don't say who).

Also, glad there's a fellow Coltrane fan here! I did hear about him getting sainted by a church, but I didn't actually see the church's website.

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

I thought Orthodox Jewish men could listen to women sing, provided they had never ever seen their faces?

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

I thought Orthodox Jewish men could listen to women sing, provided they had never ever seen their faces?

I can bring this full circle!

When I was counsel to the Mayor of our city, for a number of years we had an attractive, 30-ish, female Mayor. A large block in our downtown fell into foreclosure and was purchased at auction on behalf of 'blind' NYC interests.

They came upstate one summer afternoon to meet with their bankers and our economic development office as they were vaguely talking about doing a conversion into student housing for the university. We took them to meet the mayor and they stopped dead in their tracks. They were Hasidic Jews and they would not shake the mayor's hand when offered nor come into her inner offer as they wanted to know if she were post-menopausal or, if not, was she having her period.

Needless to say, she was offended by their bluntness and they never moved forward with their proposal - which really was quite speculative and would have required tax abatements and assistance well beyond what we typically would offer such a project.

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

I thought Orthodox Jewish men could listen to women sing, provided they had never ever seen their faces?

I can bring this full circle!

When I was counsel to the Mayor of our city, for a number of years we had an attractive, 30-ish, female Mayor. A large block in our downtown fell into foreclosure and was purchased at auction on behalf of 'blind' NYC interests.

They came upstate one summer afternoon to meet with their bankers and our economic development office as they were vaguely talking about doing a conversion into student housing for the university. We took them to meet the mayor and they stopped dead in their tracks. They were Hasidic Jews and they would not shake the mayor's hand when offered nor come into her inner offer as they wanted to know if she were post-menopausal or, if not, was she having her period.

Needless to say, she was offended by their bluntness and they never moved forward with their proposal - which really was quite speculative and would have required tax abatements and assistance well beyond what we typically would offer such a project.

Oh wow, why didn't I make that connection sooner? Yes, most Orthodox Jews will not shake hands with the opposite sex. Some will in a business setting and others will so as not to offend the unknowing party, but some are very adamant (I was one of those people) and will flat-out refuse. I tried to be really cordial about it, "I'm really sorry, but I can't shake your hand for religious reasons. I hope you understand and it is a pleasure to meet you."

I'm kind of shocked that they asked if the mayor was menstruating (why not just assume and not ask that embarrassing personal question?), but sadly, not too shocked...

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

I thought Orthodox Jewish men could listen to women sing, provided they had never ever seen their faces?

This is a technicality that most people frown upon, although I did hear a story about a Chief Rabbi in Israel loving to listen to this opera singer. The others, upset that he was exploiting a technicality, barged into his office and showed him a picture of the woman.

PERSONAL RANT TIME: It sounds more and more stupid every time I bring this stuff up and I can't believe I used to be a part of that culture...

Oh wow, why didn't I make that connection sooner? Yes, most Orthodox Jews will not shake hands with the opposite sex. Some will in a business setting and others will so as not to offend the unknowing party, but some are very adamant (I was one of those people) and will flat-out refuse. I tried to be really cordial about it, "I'm really sorry, but I can't shake your hand for religious reasons. I hope you understand and it is a pleasure to meet you."

I'm kind of shocked that they asked if the mayor was menstruating (why not just assume and not ask that embarrassing personal question?), but sadly, not too shocked...

It was a leanover to the budget director with a whispered question - his facial reaction to being asked was priceless!

No offense but that sounds pretty crummy. I mean, I could see separating yourselves in the Synagogue and forbidding physical contact, but not even associating with, talking or befriending people of the opposite gender? Sounds kind of miserable. Then again, maybe it works. I feel physically attracted to all of my platonic female friends even though we are just friends.

I'm not offended in the least; I have severed myself from that way of life.

In my experience, it actually caused more sexual tension. Sort of the "forbidden fruit" idea.

Also, you're not allowed to hear women sing.

I thought Orthodox Jewish men could listen to women sing, provided they had never ever seen their faces?

This is a technicality that most people frown upon, although I did hear a story about a Chief Rabbi in Israel loving to listen to this opera singer. The others, upset that he was exploiting a technicality, barged into his office and showed him a picture of the woman.

PERSONAL RANT TIME: It sounds more and more stupid every time I bring this stuff up and I can't believe I used to be a part of that culture...

I knew it was a technicality, but I didn't realize it was a frowned upon technicality. There are so many Jewish traditions and rules because of technicalities, that I never think that some technicalities might actually be frowned on.

So, in a very particular small individual parish, it might not be a problem for men to kiss on women and women to kiss on men. However, if the parish grows and becomes a large parish? Or what happens if some of the people move and go to the big city parish? If they are used to this Not-Before-in-Orthodox-History kissing concept, then they will feel (perhaps) let down. Conversely, if the people from that parish wind up in the smaller parish, and are not used to the New American Kissing Innovation, they will be scandalized.

It's a lose-lose proposition.

I don't think whichever American people instituted this thing, were thinking it through very far. Better to stick with Orthodox tradition, which can occasionally be odd, but at least is tried and true.

So, in a very particular small individual parish, it might not be a problem for men to kiss on women and women to kiss on men. However, if the parish grows and becomes a large parish? Or what happens if some of the people move and go to the big city parish? If they are used to this Not-Before-in-Orthodox-History kissing concept, then they will feel (perhaps) let down. Conversely, if the people from that parish wind up in the smaller parish, and are not used to the New American Kissing Innovation, they will be scandalized.

It's a lose-lose proposition.

I don't think whichever American people instituted this thing, were thinking it through very far. Better to stick with Orthodox tradition, which can occasionally be odd, but at least is tried and true.

So, in a very particular small individual parish, it might not be a problem for men to kiss on women and women to kiss on men. However, if the parish grows and becomes a large parish? Or what happens if some of the people move and go to the big city parish? If they are used to this Not-Before-in-Orthodox-History kissing concept, then they will feel (perhaps) let down. Conversely, if the people from that parish wind up in the smaller parish, and are not used to the New American Kissing Innovation, they will be scandalized.

It's a lose-lose proposition.

I don't think whichever American people instituted this thing, were thinking it through very far. Better to stick with Orthodox tradition, which can occasionally be odd, but at least is tried and true.

And I thought the French innovated kissing.

Only physical kissing. Before the great Western heresy of using your lips, Orthodox kissed only spiritually like Adam and Eve in the Garden.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

I think in many cases, it's just American-style hand-shaking, actually, so "kissing on" is a poor choice of words. But it's a New American Invention for what to do at the Liturgy at the time of the kiss of peace. Only if we are talking about a gender-segregated temple (like some Anglican Protestants had up into the 20th century), with a kiss of peace, would it be a return to ancient practices.

But it still has the disadvantage of creating a disconnect between Orthodox parishes which was not there before.

I wonder, as an American innovation (and handshake) if this might come from protestant converts who are very used to shaking hands, hugging, and greeting one another as part of their worship service. That's been the custom in every American Protestant church I've ever been to (and it quite often takes at least five minutes).

Would you feel better about kissing an icon that others are also kissing, than about hugging or kissing (really, sort of embracing with cheek contact and maybe some hand-to-arm-or-shoulder contact) or shaking hands? I wonder, since in the older Roman rite this was a standard way to preserve the kiss of peace idea without actually having the physical contact between laity. It will be done that way at the Old Roman Rite Mass which will be celebrated in the Mt. Alvernia Retreat Center in Wappinger Falls, New York, this August 9 at about 7:00 a.m.

I especially will not shake hands with the heathen. This is an absolutely outrageous custom. If you do not know them and they are most likely not even spiritual, but are rather like the average citizen of the kingdom of darkness, then why on earth would the servants of God want to shake hands with them? Handshakes transmit energies into the bodies. Also, most of the heathen males masturbate daily with their right hand. But if you do not shake hands with them then they will not accept you into their dark world of "professionalism" (i.e. service of demons). They even have a whole way of judging you by your handshakes, whether it was firm and assertive and trustworthy, or whether it was weak and that you are therefore somehow a lesser person. This is absolutely crazy! Does anyone else believe this?

Get help.

Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm