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Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by CadyandZoe

They are disciples, yes.

His disciples.

Obviously both.

Instead of a vine think about a train. Jesus is the train and if a man wants to live he must get on board the train when it arrives at the station. As long as the man stays on the train, and makes it to the destination, he will live. If at any point he gets off the train he will die. But while he is on the train, the man will face the conductor who will test the man. "What are you doing here? What makes you worthy of being on this train? Do you think you are better than those who remained at the station?" Now, if the man is overcome with self-doubt, then he will get off at the next station. If he remains on the train and continues to believe, he will live.

In other words, the vine metaphor isn't an illustration of people who have already arrived at the destination. It illustrates the journey. The outcome of the journey depends on whether a disciple remains a disciple or not. Only those disciples that remain disciples are those who will arrive at life.

To employ this parable to suggest that it is possible to lose life, is to assume that life is seen and not a hope, "for who hopes for what he sees?"

Again, I will just have to disagree with your opinion as you fit scripture into your theology.

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Daniel567

This is speaking of righteous deeds under the Law. It has no bearing on New Testament truth which deals with imputed righteousness as a result of faith.

Ezek 18:24 is about "righteousness", and yes, it was achieved through deeds under the law, but it doesn't make the quality of the righteousness any less than righteousness in Christ. In God's sight, righteousness in the OT and NT are the same; the difference is that in the OT covenant, it is through the law but through grace in faith in Christ in the NT.

As difficult as it was to achieve righteousness through law, Hebrew 11 cited a glowing list of just a few of the OT saints that achieved it, regardless. So those who hastily point to out that Ezek 18:24 came through the law, wholly miss the point because it would seem they allude that righteousness in the OT is inferior to that in the NT age.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by randyk

Slug, I don't believe that Christian ministry and Christian works are necessarily "fruit." In the same way Israel, under the Law, performed good works and obeyed the requirements to do rituals, and yet did not necessarily produce fruits in keeping with eternal salvation. That's the very reason that Israel was rejected, because for all the works they did under the Law they rejected Christ.

Being "cut off from the vine" is a warning for all, both children of God and for those like Judas, who are children of the devil. God gives just warning for all, to encourage them to pick the best path, no matter who they are, no matter what their inward compulsions are.

Abiding in the vine is the best path for all, whether children of God or children of this world. God wants all to live in the knowledge of His salvation. Those who have an intrinsic attraction to the word of God are those who will abide. But even the children of God can wander off, and be cut off from the company of Christians.

Children of this world, who observe the commandments of Jesus, and yet have a revulsion for the word of God, can remain in basic compliance with Christian morality, and can endure Christian spirituality, without capitulating to gross rebellion and wickedness. So the encouragement for all is to utilize free will to make the best choices, to remain in compliance with Christian morality.

But eternity is decided by those who on the inside desire the word of God, and remain committed not just to Christian morality but also to a love of Christian spirituality. It is not simply *enduring* the word and spirit of God, but more, an abiding love for it.

In a nutshell, the connection to the vine represents an external link to Christ, which in today's world means a Christian community. But presented as a matter of Christian salvation this is something that only God can judge, since it is an *inward* judgment. Outwardly, men are encouraged to remain connected to the vine. Inwardly, God will judge who when disconnected from the vine will be lost forever and who can be restored.

For all, this is an encouragement to follow through with the initial Christian commitment. This goes beyond eternal salvation to encourage a continuing commitment to Christian morality, no matter what the eternal outcome will be.

As you pointed out, God's plan is for all to be saved. The encouragement for believers to remain in the vine or be cut off if they fail to bear fruit points to this. However, despite God's grace and light, some who have tasted of the heavenly gifts will still turn to darkness. Some like Judas don't turn their back on God because of trial but for the gratification of the flesh.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by randyk

All Israel under the Law participated, I think, in the spiritual life of God. The word of God was "near them, so that they could obey it." And so, there was a certain spirituality from God associated with obeying the Lord's word.

Within Jesus' inner circle of disciples there were those who heard Jesus' word directly, and also had an obligation to obey his word. In doing so they also experienced a certain spirituality from God, enabling them to perform that word.

At what point does the experience of spiritual life become "eternal life?" It is, I believe, when obedience to God's word results in a change of character, or what we call "regeneration."

Jesus had the authority to declare this spiritual life "eternal life." But he did not automatically make the experience of his spiritual life, or the Christian life, "eternal life."

In order for it to become "eternal life" in us it must, I think, represent a transformation in our character. It must be more than perfunctory obedience, or a form of "legalism." It must be our love joined to His love, without reservation.

It does not require perfection, but it does require commitment from the heart. Otherwise, it is purely a spiritual experience, and not a complete transformation of character, resulting in eternal life.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by CadyandZoe

Yes, it is my opinion, after much study of the New Testament that the phrase "in Christ" is an idiomatic expression indicating one's status as a disciple. The phrase "in Christ" is short hand for "baptized into Christ", indicating someone who has declared his or her wish to study under Jesus. While it is literally true that one is placed into a body of water, this symbolically represents being "immersed" in the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Paul uses this idiom in Acts chapter 19.

1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7 There were in all about twelve men.

Paul asks "into what were you baptized?" If Paul were speaking literally, the answer would be "water". But Paul is actually asking "who is your teacher and what teaching are you following?" They answer "into John's baptism" and what they mean is, "John is our teacher and we are living according to his teaching." Here we see the idiomatic use of the spacial metaphor "into" as it pertains to declaring an intention of becoming the disciple of a particular teacher, and to live according to his teaching. The critical addition here, however, takes place when Paul lays his hands on them and the Holy Spirit comes on them. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the critical distinction between a mere disciple and a child of God.

But looking at the text from a broader perspective where ALL believers (not just the apostles) are involved, doesn't "in Christ" then exactly mean what it says? If yes, then being in Christ makes one a child of God, doesn't it?

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Trivalee

But looking at the text from a broader perspective where ALL believers (not just the apostles) are involved, doesn't "in Christ" then exactly mean what it says? If yes, then being in Christ makes one a child of God, doesn't it?

What I'm saying is that "in me" means "being a disciple of mine" and that IS exactly what it says. Jesus gives the parable in order to symbolically represent the activity of God with respect to the growth of the "true" church. Thus Jesus begins his parable with his declaration, "I am the true vine . . .", followed by an extended metaphor comparing the Father to a vinedresser, pruning and cultivating the vine so as to sort out the true disciples from the ostensible disciples.

Corresponding to the structure of this metaphor then, He announces to the twelve, "you are already clean", meaning "The Father has already pruned you so as to prove that you are true disciples", excepting Judas Iscariot of course. Cleaning a vine is another way of saying pruning a vine. And the Father has already cleaned/pruned them so that they will bear more fruit. The Father does the same thing to you and I and every other disciple. If we bear fruit, then the Father prunes us so that we bear more fruit.

And what does "bear fruit" mean in this context. In a previous post I suggested that bearing fruit was "persevering in faith," based on the parable of the soils, but after giving it more thought, I am leaning toward another interpretation that I think fits better. Corresponding to the structure of the metaphor, I think "bearing fruit" indicates belief put into action. Jesus tells us that if we bear fruit, and continue to bear fruit after the Father has pruned us, this proves that we are his disciples. A bit further in the text he says that we prove to be his disciples if we keep his commandments and love one another. Therefore, it seems to me that keeping his commandments and loving one another is symbolically represented as "bearing fruit."

So then, in this context, (not speaking about elsewhere in the New Testament) corresponding to the structure of his metaphor, we don't know which branch is a child of God until a branch bears fruit and continues to bear fruit after the Father has pruned it. Only then can we know if a branch is a child of God.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by CadyandZoe

What I'm saying is that "in me" means "being a disciple of mine" and that IS exactly what it says. Jesus gives the parable in order to symbolically represent the activity of God with respect to the growth of the "true" church. Thus Jesus begins his parable with his declaration, "I am the true vine . . .", followed by an extended metaphor comparing the Father to a vinedresser, pruning and cultivating the vine so as to sort out the true disciples from the ostensible disciples.

Corresponding to the structure of this metaphor then, He announces to the twelve, "you are already clean", meaning "The Father has already pruned you so as to prove that you are true disciples", excepting Judas Iscariot of course. Cleaning a vine is another way of saying pruning a vine. And the Father has already cleaned/pruned them so that they will bear more fruit. The Father does the same thing to you and I and every other disciple. If we bear fruit, then the Father prunes us so that we bear more fruit.

And what does "bear fruit" mean in this context. In a previous post I suggested that bearing fruit was "persevering in faith," based on the parable of the soils, but after giving it more thought, I am leaning toward another interpretation that I think fits better. Corresponding to the structure of the metaphor, I think "bearing fruit" indicates belief put into action. Jesus tells us that if we bear fruit, and continue to bear fruit after the Father has pruned us, this proves that we are his disciples. A bit further in the text he says that we prove to be his disciples if we keep his commandments and love one another. Therefore, it seems to me that keeping his commandments and loving one another is symbolically represented as "bearing fruit."

So then, in this context, (not speaking about elsewhere in the New Testament) corresponding to the structure of his metaphor, we don't know which branch is a child of God until a branch bears fruit and continues to bear fruit after the Father has pruned it. Only then can we know if a branch is a child of God.

What stands out here is that the disciple/believer is required to continuously "bear fruit" until he goes to rest in the Lord. If you agree with this view, the next question then is, what happens if one stops bearing fruit at some point? The popular notion that once one bears fruit and is pruned by God, they will always continue to bear fruit irrespective of whatever they encounter on the journey. This belief is far-fetched and cannot be substantiated, IMO.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Trivalee

What stands out here is that the disciple/believer is required to continuously "bear fruit" until he goes to rest in the Lord. If you agree with this view, the next question then is, what happens if one stops bearing fruit at some point? The popular notion that once one bears fruit and is pruned by God, they will always continue to bear fruit irrespective of whatever they encounter on the journey. This belief is far-fetched and cannot be substantiated, IMO.

First of all because we "rest" in the vine, we bear fruit. It is because we are in the vine and because of the vine that we bear fruit and not because of the branches. We became part of the vine through grace and faith and without it we wither and die. Once we became part of the vine through faith, the Father prunes us to bear fruit abundantly. How much fruit you bear is according to the Father for He prunes you for the amount of fruit He wants. It is not according to you, you are in rest in the vine. Now according to this teaching of Christ as well as the parable of the sower, we know that some will receive the Gospel, but it is not unto good soil, but shallow soil or soil full of weeds. Because it is only professors of faith, but not true faith as we see that true faith "rest" and false faith "works" to bear fruit, but cannot for it is not in the vine. They are cut off for they have never bear any fruit.

Also of importance in the KJV translation we see that Jesus talk to His disciples as ye in the vine, but as a man who do not abide, not ye for it could not be. A man professing to have faith, but who did not bear fruit is not part of the vine in bearing fruit, but like a withered branch that is cut off. You can sprout leaves, but not fruit if you do not believe in the vine and rest in its power. Without it you cannot bear any fruit. So I had to disagree with your understanding of this passage according to my understanding.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

First of all because we "rest" in the vine, we bear fruit. It is because we are in the vine and because of the vine that we bear fruit and not because of the branches. We became part of the vine through grace and faith and without it we wither and die. Once we became part of the vine through faith, the Father prunes us to bear fruit abundantly. How much fruit you bear is according to the Father for He prunes you for the amount of fruit He wants. It is not according to you, you are in rest in the vine. Now according to this teaching of Christ as well as the parable of the sower, we know that some will receive the Gospel, but it is not unto good soil, but shallow soil or soil full of weeds. Because it is only professors of faith, but not true faith as we see that true faith "rest" and false faith "works" to bear fruit, but cannot for it is not in the vine. They are cut off for they have never bear any fruit.

Also of importance in the KJV translation we see that Jesus talk to His disciples as ye in the vine, but as a man who do not abide, not ye for it could not be. A man professing to have faith, but who did not bear fruit is not part of the vine in bearing fruit, but like a withered branch that is cut off. You can sprout leaves, but not fruit if you do not believe in the vine and rest in its power. Without it you cannot bear any fruit. So I had to disagree with your understanding of this passage according to my understanding.

K, do you find any correlation between John 15 "vine/fruit" teaching and the parable of the Barren Fig Tree?

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Slug1

Would Jesus take time/patience with a non-elect?

Towards what purpose? He had patience toward the elect and non-elect, for the elect to come to salvation and for the non-elect to not bringing judgement immediately. See the parable of the wheat and tares.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

Towards what purpose? He had patience toward the elect and non-elect, for the elect to come to salvation and for the non-elect to not bringing judgement immediately. See the parable of the wheat and tares.

Lets focus on how Jesus will have patience with someone that could possibly NOT respond to Him, in accordance with the Parable of the Barren Fig Tree.

Why would Jesus take time to work in the life of a person who possibly will not respond and not produce fruit?

So based on the parable, since Jesus takes the time... why would He start to take the time, if the person is a non-elect?

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

How can a bad tree bear good fruit or a stream gives sweet and bitter water. Nothing that a man do can be good according to God's standard. So no Judas did not do any good because his origin was not in Christ but himself.

So explain how , or why that Jesus not only loved his enemy Judas, but served him by washing his feet ?