It would appear the 'dog does'? ...Your dog!;)
Ain't saying it's right, or wrong!...just saying....Mine do the same in competition and field!..because I train for it!....
If you don't?...then that's what you get ?...It's in the 'rules'?.....
But ,,,hey'....I do one heck of alot more hunting than I do competition!....
The dogs are just there for fun:D

09-12-2013, 07:44 PM

steve schreiner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!

From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.

Mark

What about white to bye ? I understand this is some of Ted's judging subjectivity but he has said the dog left the designated spot for the honor and like Swampcollie not completed the honor, thus warrants a drop...I agree...In the HT game you can talk to the dog so there is absolutely no reason to wander off...In the Sr you could be credited with a "control break" and thus receive a final score, judges discretion...Mater , no controlled breaks ...Steve S

09-12-2013, 08:07 PM

kjrice

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooseGooser

I like the post above.

I hate to say this, but I suppose we need to define " Honor"

I think it means respect, and to be in the ready if needed.

The posture if lying down, to me doesn't represent respect.
Much like sitting down during the National Anthem.

Honoring ,to me , is a respectful postures gown to the working dog , much like military standing at attention.

I disagree 100%. Generally, a dog that lies down was instructed. It is more submissive in nature than a sit. Comparing it to a human and the NA is, well, goofy.

09-12-2013, 10:47 PM

JS

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjrice

Breaking is a mandatory elimination under the “STANDARD’’ on page 56, rule 9. Rule 14, page 57, addresses dogs that are not on the line and under judgement but interfere. Those that might argue how great the dog was doing or it didn't interfere are not following the "STANDARD." Whether the dog went forward or took a happy stroll to the gallery, IMO, it is still breaking. In addition, I agree with Ted that the dog did not satisfactorily complete a required task; it didn't follow the fundamentals and spirit of honoring.

In order to call it a break, I thought the language stipulated something about "in an attempt to retrieve the bird".

JS

09-13-2013, 01:05 AM

Eric Fryer

Chapter 3
Section 19. Failure to Obey. Judges shall have the
power to turn out of a test any dog which does not obey
its handler and any handler who interferes willfully with another handler or his dog.

Guidelines for the Hunting Test
Regulations for Retrievers
Chapter 3, Section 1, of the Regulations states:
“The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to
test the merits of, and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers
in the field in order to determine their suitability and
ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore,
simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a
true hunting situation.”

You guys are nuts... maybe its just me? I have limited experience in Trials so I will stick to the Hunt Test aspect of the questions. Failure to Obey (Chaper 3 section 19) are grounds in and of itself to be dropped. Then there are the Guidlines for Retrievers and Hunting Test that states we are testing and evaluating the merits of the dog as a hunting companion.

A couple things here, first would I want to hunt with that dog. Very simply "NO" he failed the evaluation and merits of a hunting companion. 2nd he failed to obey severly. 3rd getting him under control is going to interfere with either the working dog, the handler, the judges or all of the above which again is grounds for being dropped.... then there is that don't disturb too much cover thing (I know it is talked about in the retrieving section of the rules, but should pertain to the entirty of the test)

I am in agreement with Ted 100% dog is dropped. Not only do the rules back me on it, but there is not a chance in hell I would want to hunt with that dog if he cant sit still and obey, and ultimately that is what we are testing and evaluating, isn't it?

09-13-2013, 01:17 AM

John Robinson

Quote:

Originally Posted by labguy

One of my dogs often lies down on the honor at a Field Trial.

The competitive dogs over here go the the line hundreds (even thousands) of times during their lives. They get so used to honoring for another dog that they know that after the honor the job is done.

You can't blame the dogs for thinking "the job is done"when they have never gotten another retrieve after honoring in their entire lives at a Field Trial...........different game here and not at all related to hunting.

As an aside, when hunting and this same dog is asked to honor while another picks up a bird, he is definitely ready for another retrieve because he has learned that game too.

You cannot compare the two situations.

Yep. By the time a field trial dog is in the middle of his all age career, he has run a set of mark, then honorored thousands of times. It doesn't matter how much drive he has, he's been we'll trained to never-ever think about going again. He has also been trained to remain in the honor position until his handler heels him of line and back behind the judges.

09-13-2013, 01:29 AM

John Robinson

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

In order to call it a break, I thought the language stipulated something about "in an attempt to retrieve the bird".

JS

You don't have to break in order to be dropped for failing to honor. I'm pretty sure no judge would like dropping a dog that left th honor with no intent to retrieve, and most would quickly release the honor dog as soon as the working dog was sent, but in the extreme example of an honor dog just up and leaving while the birds are going down, and his handler is standing there flat footed, what could a judge do other than drop him?

09-13-2013, 06:02 AM

Mark AB

I'm new to the hunt test game, but if my dog wandered off I'd expect to be heading home. My issue is the other end of the spectrum, as they sit there like a coiled trip wire and my heart in my throat quietly wispiring in my most authoritative voice i can muster siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

09-13-2013, 10:06 AM

Tim Carrion

1-E Honoring in gun dog, all-age, limited gun dog, and limited all-age stakes. A dog encountering its bracemate on point must honor. Failure of a dog to honor when it sees its bracemate on point must be severely penalized, and the intentional avoidance by a dog or a handler of an honoring situation must also be severely penalized. (AKC Pointer FT Rules)

"Intentional avoidance"
I like that term. A good way to describe the OP situation. A dog laying down = avoidance? Still open to debate.

09-13-2013, 10:11 AM

JS

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Robinson

You don't have to break in order to be dropped for failing to honor. I'm pretty sure no judge would like dropping a dog that left th honor with no intent to retrieve, and most would quickly release the honor dog as soon as the working dog was sent, but in the extreme example of an honor dog just up and leaving while the birds are going down, and his handler is standing there flat footed, what could a judge do other than drop him?

I understand that. I was only addressing the part of post #45 (I bolded) that suggested the language on breaking may be relevant.