Cardinal, I do not want to hijack this thread talking about near death experiences but if reincarnation is a bunch of baloney, then there are many many people being deceived during their NDE's. And that in itself is quite scary.I still don't see a conflict with scripture if you take the view you come back until you are born again in the spirit, not coming back and getting better and better with each new life.I'm pretty confused now.

Cardinal, I do not want to hijack this thread talking about near death experiences but if reincarnation is a bunch of baloney, then there are many many people being deceived during their NDE's. And that in itself is quite scary.I still don't see a conflict with scripture if you take the view you come back until you are born again in the spirit, not coming back and getting better and better with each new life.I'm pretty confused now.

From what I remember of reading through NDE accounts, the majority of people were saying that they saw something like reincarnation happening, but that what it was, was so far beyond our concept of reincarnation, that they couldn't really describe it.

I have come to the conclusion that, while I believe NDE's are real experiences, I don't think we can count on them to reveal truth.

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God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.

Hi Zero, well, I shared this dream/vision before; am wondering Doc if this might be something like they saw........

I was asleep, then taken up in the heavens in the stars by the Spirit. Was astonished to see like orbs of light with faces on them descending to the earth. I was allowed to hear their conversations with each other, via the hearing ear of the Spirit, as their conversations were in the Spirit.

They had JOY, which hit me as I was allowed to hear, and what they were discussing was their "missions", who was going to be who to whom, who was going to take an adversarial role to the other, and ALL KNEW that it was to give them an opportunity to grow and experience His love being inworked in them, which was the "mission" of all, regardless of the circumstances.

These were headed to be born in this world. I had no beliefs in place to "cover" this vision. Between that, and another one He gave me, I have no doubt we come here with full knowledge of our purpose and destiny initially, but the veil of forgetfulness comes upon us. This is why I believe it says, "OUR LIFE IS HID IN CHRIST." Now this is not as the tenant of reincarnation, but it sure proved pre-destination to me. Do with it as you will. Blessings......

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

That does remind me a bit of what some were saying. Some were more clearly reincarnation oriented, but not in the typical Hindu style. NDE accounts were consistent in "coming back" human, never as another life form. It was along the lines of being shown the effect on themselves and others of the life they'd just led (life-review), and then they were given the opportunity to choose a new mortal life (with guided assistance) to learn more lessons, choose parents, etc. Sometimes on different worlds than earth, even. Pretty far-out stuff, actually. Some insisted that Deja Vu experiences are flashbacks from former lives.

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God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.

9:24 For not into a Holy place built by men's hands--a mere copy of the reality--did Christ enter, but He entered Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

9:25 Nor did He enter for the purpose of many times offering Himself in sacrifice, just as the High Priest enters the Holy place, year after year, taking with him blood not his own.

9:26 In that case Christ would have needed to suffer many times, from the creation of the world onwards; but as a matter of fact He has appeared once for all, at the Close of the Ages, in order to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

9:27 And since it is reserved for all mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged;

9:28 so the Christ also, having been once offered in sacrifice in order that He might bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, separated from sin, to those who are eagerly expecting Him, to make their salvation complete.

What if you keep coming back until you are born again in the Spirit, not getting a little bit 'better' with each new lifetime as your quote implies. If someone does have to come back, I consider that punishment.

That would mean there would be less and less people on earth because each 'turn' less are reborn.

I seem to remeber a verse that about another walk around the mountain if you do things wrong.Can't find the verse right now. Anyone?

« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 11:33:23 PM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

What if you keep coming back until you are born again in the Spirit, not getting a little bit 'better' with each new lifetime as your quote implies. If someone does have to come back, I consider that punishment.

That would mean there would be less and less people on earth because each 'turn' less are reborn.

I seem to remeber a verse that about another walk around the mountain if you do things wrong.Can't find the verse right now. Anyone?

None of us even remotely understands the process of being born once much less over and over again so I think this question stumps us right from the beginning.

There does seem to be a process of regeneration for all living things until perfection is attained, at least this is what I gather from the whole Bible. God is making something in His image and He will work until it is completed. He did liken Himself to a potter who made a pot and smashed it and made it again. There is some 'reincarnation' for ya.

"I shall pass this way, but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to that of another – let me not defer, nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way, again."

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, expecting different results.

The content of a near death experience, varies with culture or religious belief.

A NEAR DEATH experience, but NOT actually DEAD, is much in lines with a near-miss auto accident; STILL ALIVE.

Peacemaker

Just wanted to note a few fine points here. The content does vary with culture or religious belief, but not always in ways you'd expect (in fact, I'd say not usually in ways you'd expect). Much of what people experience often goes against or heavily modifies what they believed previously, regardless of what the prior belief was (such as in the case of atheists). Also, the name Near Death experience is a broad categorical name and is applied simply because these people came back to life, but many/ most of them were actually verifiably clinically dead.

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God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.

There are many common fears when it comes to an impending thought of death. However, few do experience a sense of peace.

A clinical diagnosis [of death] is based on the signs and symptoms, which applies to a set of circumstances where brain activity ceases despite the continuance of body functions, or the lack thereof. And this is by human examination of the person with the use of a standard analogy predicated on the basis of a comparison, inferred; life and death. Thus, coming to a conclusion according to human observation, as "to hint or suggest" that actual death has occurred, although narrowly avoiding death itself (NDE) would be more correct – for the dead know nothing.

"Exaggerations do not imply falsehood or fabrication; they are merely the thoughts, or mental activity of the person at the time."

Deep in thought, as death is imminent.

Peacemaker

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martincisneros

The dead know nothing that's useful to the living. Ecclesiastes was Solomon's confessional of all of his sins, including consulting mediums. The living and the dead are exactly the same to the Lord according to other Scriptures.

Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

If God is not God of the dead but still He is God of everything then there are no dead....?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

God created and owns everything. So IMO that includes everything you can think of.Including spiritual and physical...

I think the following is twisting the verse...But what if the verse is not saying "I God are the God of everyone."But instead:"For spiritual dead I'm not God because they believe in other gods or no gods at all."

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Today I was reading again about reincarnation , something a brother wrote on another forum and it makes perfect sense to me !!

I know that some of them " memories" and" de ja vous " some experience without knowing what is going on and speak of past lives they have lived , they come though dreams / subconscience thought this could very well be the demonic oppression and wiles of satan , Jesus warns us about and the new testament writers the familiar spirits /the dead that though the carnal thought process causes many to Act on and feed the reincarnation story for many generations

this is the binding on earth/ heaven and loosing on earth / heaven that Jesus tells us of ? and tells us with Him we have that power over them/ evil spirits /the dead when we by faith in Christ who is in you is greater than anything the world whirrls you way ? your are His little one /sheep But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

we got to stick together [ One Spirit /one Faith /one God in agreement ] His Body of believers in the love of God and against evil in every form in us / we got to fight against the LIES that bind us and cling to the Truth and Life /hid in Jesus Christ the power of God and knowledge of God sent to save us and free us from sin / body of death /hell [grave]

History records that the early Christine church believed in Reincarnation and of the souls journey back to oneness with God. This all changed by Emperial decree some 500 plus years after the death of Christ. Emperor Justinian in 545 A.D. was able to apply the full power of Rome and his authority to stop the belief in reincarnation. He forced the ruling cardinals to draft a papal decree stating that anyone who believes that souls come from God and return to God will be punished by death. The actual decree stated:

"If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (The Anathemas against Origen), attached to the decrees of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, A.D. 545, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 14: 318)." .....Reincarnation is one of the Lost Doctrines of Christianity.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Reincarnation I believe came from an understanding that everyone would eventually be redeemed, but through as many Judgments as needed before reaching salvation. But the people in Eastern Religions never even heard of Jesus.

I like the idea that the scriptures contain a record. "Who has believed our report". Of certain things we have clear testimony in the scriptures. As Jesus responded to temptation on the mount, "It is written". While not being bound to the letter, we are nevertheless instructed through the "oracles of God" and those things spoken, and then written and recorded by faithful scribes, to pay close attention to the prophetic word as a lamp shining in a dark place. So, although there are many things that "may be" and a few things that might be "hinted at".... we are exhorted to resort to the writings for confirmation.

I see no need to get all freaked out when people are speculating about reincarnation or anti-deluvian civilization or the sons of God going into the daughters of men..... all things we may have glimpses of here and there- but when people begin to build doctrine and teach their speculations as doctrine it loses its entertainment value and becomes the kind of stuff Paul warned against. Interesting conversation perhaps, but it is written that it is given unto man once to die..... then comes the judgment. In the light of the warnings given by Jesus, Paul, James, Peter and Jude in the writings- Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?(John the Baptist)

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10)

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:16-17)

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

It almost seems to me that there is, among some in UR, a desire to do away with the scriptures clear testimonies, as if there is no clear testimony of anything pertaining to wrath and judgment. I believe that mercy will triumph over judgment. I believe in punishment with a purpose of correction. But I see to much plainly spoken by Jesus, the chief cornerstone, and the apostles who are the 12 foundations stones, to buy into a gospel where everything that speaks to wrath is done away with and replaced by a form of Hinduism, the teachings of the Brahmans, etc.

At the very least, re-incarnation is certainly no "lost doctrine of Christianity". UR is plainly witnessed in many verses with no question remaining to the reader of those verses. I would like someone to show me similar verses relating to re-incarnation. If that happens, I will repent :o)