Let's be honest: who saw this coming? Palm's jaw-droppingdebut of their innovative webOS and stunning Pre smartphone on Thursday finally stemmed the tide of gloomy questions about the company: did the PDA pioneer still have the talent to lead the mobile computing industry? Would the top-secret Nova become another vapourware Cobalt? Could they overcome an entrenched reputation in the community for trailing the pack? In short: Yes, no, and hell yes!

The tech world has been positivelygushing in their praise of Palm's spectacular comeback effort, and the reaction from the denizens of the comments has been similarly favourable. But as pleased as we all are to learn that Palm still has the Right Stuff, there are plenty of unanswered questions about their beautiful new baby. Let's take a cold shower, quell the geek lust and analyse what we have – and haven't – been told...

RE: I saw video playback

[an old professor of mine use to complain about my advisor's HUGE piles of Tech Reports (produced by our lab) that he had to sign off on by calling it "diarrhea of the pen"...this still fits to this day with some, huh?]

RE: I saw video playback

Wow! I hope that is the case for video capture and not just smoke 'n mirrors and false promises.

Now, I was told by a Palm rep at CES that MMS was functioning and was already a part of the Pre. In fact I've been under this assumption since last Thursday. Has this been stated otherwise elsewhere? I mean, the Palm reps were touting it as a big advantage in that regard for messaging over the iPhone (MMS support + native IM client).

I wouldn't call it a comeback either.

It is as if a new company made this phone. What about it is Palm other than the name? Do you think Palm will devote any resources to PalmOS device? They have been on the back burner since Palm's first WinMob device. Palm as we know it suffered a mortal wound last week and is curently on life support for organ harvesting. Pre and WebOS are other animals and not at all related to Palm.

We can say with certainty now that this is absolutely the beginning of the end of Palm (Palm OS). Not even Palm cares about PDAs and now what pitiful support and development they had for Garnet is being halted.

So sad. I can soon put my Palm devices in the box with an old Newton.

RE: I wouldn't call it a comeback either.

Since Palm no longer owns PalmOS, it doesn't makes sense to keep developing devices based on that platform. A few years back when Palm split into PalmOne and PalmSource, then Access bought PalmSource, Access acquired the the rights to PalmOS (hence why "Access Powered" started appearing on Treos, for example).

So the situation is a lose-lose for PalmOS: Palm no longer owns PalmOS, and any future development of PalmOS is dependent on Access (who hasn't had any luck selling their "ALP" OS, to my knowledge), not Palm.

To me, it's somewhat nostalgic to see essentially the end of PalmOS, but it was long coming after all the debacles with Palm over the last few years. Garnet is well past retirement age, and Palm needs a fresh start with something that looks as new, potentially revolutionary, and competitive...like WebOS.

Besides, unless Palm outright says "no" to Styletap (which I doubt, since Palm is not Apple), I'll be shocked if there isn't a PalmOS emulator available for WebOS within 6 months to a year of the Pre's launch.

RE: I wouldn't call it a comeback either.

Palm owns the rights to use Garnet forever. Not sure if that excludes via emulators, but hopefully they weren't stupid enough to do that.

Fact it, many of the people that have stuck with Palm through the years is BECAUSE of the OS. It CERTAINLY wasn't their quality control and customer support! We have hundreds of dollars in licenses based on Palm's being around, and to suddenly make them all inaccessible if we buy this phone is ridiculously short sighted. How many commercial and proprietary apps have been developed for PalmOS over the past 13 years? How many of those apps will have been updated to "WebOS" by the time the Pre is released? How many will have been fixed a year from then?

No harm in developing a "next generation" OS, but releasing it without providing a secure path to accessing 13 years of previously created applications for your platform seems spiteful and lazy.

Maybe it's a scam by Palm to make the TX much more valuable once the Pre is released. Of all the companies that Palm has foolishly swallowed up, it's surprising nobody thought of buying StyleTap....

Still a pretty positive response

Nice article Tim. Still, I've seen a lot of Palm related announcements on this site (from Palm IIIc, Handspring, m505 to the CLIÉ-of-the-month devices). I can't remember any announcement being as well executed and as positively received by all as the Pre has been

Ring tones?

Speaking of mp3, I wonder if you'll be able to install your own custom ringtones on the Pre and assign seperate tones to contacts. My sister's iPhone-toting boyfriend was complaining on Sunday about how he couldn't do the latter.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

i like what i've seen so far. i just need local PIM sync. i don't want to f**k with no cloud. no yet anyway. i'd prefer local Palm Desktop but i could live with local Outlook. i just don't want to have to f**k with web GMail, Yahoo Mail, Hotmail, etc. or have to set up my own f*****g exchange server.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

i say that 99.9% of 3rd party Apps that don't already ship with the device are not really necessary and are mere fluff. for everything else, you can use Docs To Go to do 99.9% of all extraneous tasks. the shipped apps ought to be good enough for anybody.

disagree? give me an example of a critical app not shipped with the device whose critical function can't be replicated with a shipped app.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

My list? Pretty much the same as it's always been. Here's a few though:

1. I either need all my "critical apps" available for webOS or StyleTap to come through with support. Since Palm is being an idiot and not supporting legacy apps in any way, I need new ones or support for old ones from someone else. These include something like iSilo (with ability to create my own docs with hyperlinks), Chinese-English-Chinese dictionary, secure password program, MyBible, and a local backup program (see #3 below).

2. Chinese character entry. Absolute deal-breaker for me. I have zero interest in a mobile device that doesn't have it.

3. Local PIM sync. I'm with Gekko on this one. I don't need Palm telling me how I want to handle my data any more than I need Apple to do it. Just because they live in that world already, doesn't mean that I want to do it. It's simply arrogance to demand that everyone else be there. (Somewhat like the same arrogance that refuses to understand how some people might still prefer a PDA/dumb-phone combo to a smartphone.)

4. GSM (Much like the vast majority of people on this planet, I don't live in the USofA.)

5. At least reasonable battery life. There is no way I should have to charge my phone at any time during the day. I'm not an overly heavy phone/pda user, and the battery simply should last at least a full day.

6. Reasonable cost of ownership. That includes initial price and contract price.

I'd prefer a card slot, although I haven't yet filled my TX's 8gb card. I "think" I'd prefer an optional stylus (for accuracy), but that's hard to say without using this particular touch technology and seeing for myself just how "pinpoint" it can be.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

I'd LIKE to be able to have some of the stuff I use on my Axim, and some of the stuff I use on my Palm device(s). That doesn't mean their absence is a dealbreaker - I'm pretty handy at creating or finding solutions for stuff like this that suit me.

Note, I will do PPC/Palm format when there are both.

- Pocket Informant/DateBk- Total Commander (PPC file management app - with 8GB of storage it will be handy)- Phatnotes (PPC note app - far exceeds notepad)- Some kind of money app like Ultrasoft Money (Palm) that syncs with desktop - Linux version gets bonus points as that is my primary OS these days.- PIM sync. Please Please Please include Thunderbird as an app that it can sync to.- Decent music/media player. Honestly I haven't found one out there yet, unless you include the iPhone for music.- Something like PocketBreeze (PPC) that puts your main data (appointments, contacts, etc) in quick, easy reach....like just glancing at the screen.- Weather app like PocketWeather (PPC) - since we have the cloud, it can update on it's own without sync.- Secure It (Palm) to store and encrypt data that shouldn't be easily accessed.- Pocket Bible/My Bible with the ability to use the existing databases (Laridian is pretty good about doing that), that doesn't need the cloud like their iPhone offering.- Hey, since we have the cloud available, and 8GB of storage, how about some kind of cloud backup solution, a la SpiderOak (http://spideroak.com)?

Yeah, I don't need all these things, this is just some of the little things I would wish to have or equivalent functionality. Honestly, as long as I can transfer my existing data into something new, I don't necessarily care that it's a different program/application.

But, seriously, yeah....money (going back to college has made the words "disposable income" something I don't say as much these days).

_________________Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

However having said that, yes, it's really easy to get a free Chinese Bible for the current Palm OS. But then again, you have to have an OS that can handle Chinese characters to even look at it. The Chinese OS included in the Asian Palm products from the IIIxe era onward have been very adequate in this regard. (I wasn't using Palms before the IIIxe.)

I suspect that just about five minutes after Palm releases the Pre with support for Asian languages, the Chinese Bible will be available for a free download.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

I'd really like PalmOS compatibility, though. There's one app that's not being developed anymore that I'd love to bring with me: Sydney Trains by eSpace. It downloads the CityRail timetable database and presents it in an easily browseable format. Handiest damn thing I've ever installed.

And I'd like a better media solution. What they're giving us is adequate, but could be greatly improved upon.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

There are a few Palm apps I use all the time that can't be replaced by the core apps.-CoPilot, a flight planning program-The Athlete's Diary-Smartlist To Go, a database program-Bonsai, outlining and project tracker-Daynotez

I really don't use documents to go that much but use the core PIM apps all the time.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

It needs one 2 things to address the shortcoming of its html/css/jscript approach to application development:- Flash- an OpenGL implementation

These 2 things address most of my wants by enabling development of apps and games that i want to see.

Flash would be perfect because it fits with their webOS paradigm and provides a way to do advanced graphics for games, animation, etc. There are tens of thousands of developers for flash already and tens of thousands of apps that are ready to go. This version of flash has to be be the full, latest flash run-time (no crippled mobile flash), and needs to be as optimized to the hardware as the rest of the OS is.

An OpenGL implementation would provide an additional standards based option for graphics heavy development, and specifically would provide an ideal way to do 3D graphics (all of the competition has 3D gaming - can't have an OS with this much sex and not support 3D). If they made this implementation accessible via javascript, then they would not necessarily need any native access to the underlying Linux kernel.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

- Unlocked Gsm (in Europe that should be very likely)- Local hotsync for pim and files (no clouds here)- support for sunbird / thunderbird- openoffice compatible spreadsheet- no restriction / approval for personal application development / deployment

-------------Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

Yeah - but I think they are saying that only because the OS currently doesnt have the capability to do gaming.

Can't do gaming? Why, we don't want gaming! Right......

I don't buy it for a minute. Palm deliberately is trying to close down a category that could sell more devices? Makes no sense at all. The original Palm OS (and it's OS 5 descendant) wasn't intended for gaming either - but I've got Doom 2 and DukeNukem on my Treo.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

Was generic copy-n-paste demoed? You know, look at "Contacts", select a phone number, paste it into an email, send it off - and vice versa. Grab a paragraph of text from a doc, paste it into an SMS - send it off - vice versa.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

1. MicroSDHC slot. For Palm to intentionally omit a feature that's been on nearly all Palm OS devices since the m500 line reeks of laziness and arrogance as they try to ape Apple.

2. Voice dialing (I refuse to pay extra for a feature that I had standard on a dumbphone as far back as 2001)

3. Higher capacity battery. HOPEFULLY Seidio will come to our rescue again but there's no reason to take a step backwards from the Treo Pro...again, Palm's greed and arrogance is showing.

4. Video recording. The TI chipset in this baby can crunch video with the best of 'em. For Palm to intentionally omit a feature all camera-enbabled Garnet devices have had for years just reeks of laziness and arrogance as they try to ape Apple.

5. Native YouTube support and/or Flash. Apple has set the standard for this. Anything less is inexcusable in 2009. Again, if I had to pony up big $ for CorePlayer or Kinoma to watch YouTube videos, we're essentially back to the Garnet days of having to shell out $ to work around Palm's shortcomings.

6. Some kind of option for desktop sync. Whether due to paranoia or just not being "ready" to enter the Cloud, we've got to have some kind of barebones WebOS desktop component or at least Outlook sync capability.

Niceties but by no means essentials:

7. IR port

8. Stylus (in a future model, of course)

9. Garnet compatibility. This I WOULD be willing to pay extra for, though I'd likely just keep my TX around and be done with it.

10. More built-in storage. I'd rather have 256mb-512mb onboard & the flexibility of a 32gb card in the slot than 32gb onboard with no slot. I regularly back up to an separate SD card for security purposes.

I already am having frightening visions of an uncomfortably high TCO for the Pre. I'd rather have $399 upfront for a totally loaded device and be done with it instead of having to pay $299 for the device then immediately spend $100+ to bring the Pre's functional in full up to my Treo. It's not only a matter of avoiding aggravation but of principle as well. We cannot sit around high-fiving Palm as they slowly remove features from one device to the next and ask us to fork over more and more $.

Off the top of my head, I can forsee having to shell out $ to get YouTube, DTG, a higher capacity Seidio battery (assuming on is even available), some kind of video recorder app (since we KNOW the hardware can do it) and a voice dial app (or even worse, a Nuance-style monthly service charge). And that's not calculating in any kind of "Palm Me" cloud sync/backup/portal service that will come with its own monthly fee.

As Gekko likes to point out, all of these little expenses add up and I hate being nickel & dimed to death by all of these little "gotchas". I'm not a software pirate and will gladly pay for accessories or software I deem worthwhile but I don't want to be treated like a sucker.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

The text was copied from memos to contacts (aka the clipboard was used). I think they were using the generic "grocery list" memo demo and flicking between the cards. Ryan or I may even have an image of it somewhere.

FWIW, the Palm reps seemed to lighten up somewhat on day #2 and were divulging a bit more info in regards to cut & paste demos, missing device capabilities etc.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

A critical app is when you use it a lot, rely on it and don't see or know an alternative. I think everyone left with a Palm OS device has 5-10 apps critical for himself, though it may seem unnecessary/expendable to most of the others. This is the main reason we haven't switched a long time ago. As far as I can see, nothing has changed on that notion.My list would include:-All standard PIMs AND syncing to Palm Desktop without a need for cloud connection. Hotsync and PD are old and orphaned, but they just work for me. Blindly. I never had a memo entry not found on my Palm after I synced. I love this feature, and was hoping Palm would replace this by something contemporary. I never felt the need for outlook and don't want to buy a license now (or pirate it, for that matter). Mac users have the advantage of iSync and iCal shipping with their computer, and it works! I've successfully set it up with an old Sony Ericcson and a 680. But as long as I don't switch to OS X, I don't see an alternative to Hotsync+PD. -Keyring-ToDo DA-ReDo-Plucker+Sunrise XP-not only can I read entire books offline, it renders the pages very well. I don't need always-on, fetching some sites in the morning and reading them when I find the time during the day is completely sufficient.-Progect+PDesk-MaTirelire-Frodo- my first computer on my phone, lovely.-LJP - how long will it take until someone writes an Emu for so many game consoles, providing me with the availability of thousands of games? Try Lemmings for SNES, for example! And it's free.-Cryptdrive, pruss is a genius

Again, these are my personal needs, almost anyone else will probably disagree. This is what a developed ecosystem around an OS does, this is the userbase Palm just gave up. I wish them good luck finding a new one in the iphone/multimedia crowd.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

just create a custom Word or Excel Doc and use Docs To Go and you can duplicate most if not all Third Party Apps. anything else can be accomplished with the shipped Apps, the Core-PIM, or the Browser (Google etc.).

it's time to cut the cord and dump these extraneous antiquated legacy garnet apps and embrace 2009. it's time for a change.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

just create a custom Word or Excel Doc and use Docs To Go and you can duplicate most if not all Third Party Apps. anything else can be accomplished with the shipped Apps, the Core-PIM, or the Browser (Google etc.).

I want things to be equally or more convenient. Creating Excel docs doesn't sound like a more convenient approach to me. I could use an analog notebook as well and accomplish most of the things I need, but that is not the point of the matter. Again, things work smooth as they are for me. Why dumping EVERYTHING now? Just because it's old? As much as I want a gorgeous phone like that, beauty alone is not sufficient-I'd get one of those Razors then, I guess.

it's time to cut the cord and dump these extraneous antiquated legacy garnet apps and embrace 2009. it's time for a change.

I don't see the slightest difference to change to i.e. WinMo then, and could have done so a long time ago. If a switch is that easy for you, lucky guy. It's not a solution for everyone, though.

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

if you create a Word or Excel Doc, it's universal and open and compatible with lots of devices and applications now and in the future. if you rely on some tiny Palm PRC, you are asking for obsolescence. third of all - Word and Excel (if you already have them) are FREE.

for example, people are crying about a splash ID and e-wallet. nix those and just create a word or excel doc with your critical info and password protect the doc via password/encryption and there you go. you have a financial PRC app you like? simple, just use excel and create a spreadsheet with formulas to duplicate it. some kind of maintenance or shopping list or custom database? do the same thing. excel and word can replace much AND you can use it on the palm OR the desktop OR PRACTICALLY ANY OTHER DEVICE.

No More Rain Man

hkk - one good thing about no SD slot is that there'll be no more OCD Obsessive-compulsive "Rain Man" constant repetitive swaps and backup rituals of SD cards anymore worrying about if your backups are up to date!!!!

your data will be SAFE AND SECURE floating UP UP AND AWAY in the BIG BAD CUMULONIMBUS!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

if you create a Word or Excel Doc, it's universal and open and compatible with lots of devices and applications now and in the future. if you rely on some tiny Palm PRC, you are asking for obsolescence. third of all - Word and Excel (if you already have them) are FREE.

Why bother? Always on means ssh on the pre and emacs on my Linuxbox is all I could ever want :) Emacs can do everything, you know...no need for fancy GUIs!

RE: What do YOU need to buy a Pre?

I'm not gushing!

I for one am not gushing, and so far, other than it's slick and I love the keyboard idea, I have more questions than answers, and more things I don't like about the phone than I do like about it.

The things I don't like:1. Sprint - I mean really. Forget how bad Sprint is in so many locations, I travel and Sprint's out for that reason alone.2. Cloud sync - I have much private data on my Treo I want to keep very secure. I also keep client information I have to keep secure. There is no way I want to put that data on the Internet, especially contacts and calendar. Without a local sync capability, I'm uninterested in this phone. Moreover, without a sync to a good desktop PIM, this isn't a phone for me. The desktop PIM is just as important as the phone PIM capabilities.3. Memory capacity is far too low at 8GB. In fact, I don't understand Palm's thinking here. With the iPhone at 16GBs why 8GB and why no slot for more.4. No built-in voice dialing. Hey folks, with all the new laws requiring "hands-free" this has become a required feature. Where is it?

I have questions:1. Is the phone any good? After all this is supposed to be primarily a phone, so if the quality isn't there, who cares about the rest. We've seen Palms with phone troubles before.2. How does phone dialing work via the contact list? This was another thing not demonstrated.3. Where's Palm's loyalty to those of us who have stuck with them? There should be a Garnet emulation mode.

For me, with no local sync, the phone's a no go from the start. Plus there is no way I'm interested in Sprint as my provider.

Without ATT or T-Mobile in the very near future (summer 2009), and local sync to a desktop PIM to keep my contacts and calendar private and secure, it's adios Palm, hello Apple.

RE: I'm not gushing!

1. sprint has the best 3G coverage.2. cloud sync is good and local sync may be available too. stay tuned.3. apple offers 8gb and 16gb. pre is 8gb. 16gb forthcoming.4. voice dialing. - 3rd part add on probably coming. stay tuned.

1. Is the phone any good? probably. stay tuned.2. just as intuitive as Garnet. tap the contact to dial.3. Garnet emulation mode? any apps that sell will be ported over. otherwise, learn to love the one you're with.

RE: I'm not gushing!

My thoughts (FWIW)1. I agree that Sprint is a problem. Where I live, we need to have Verizon. There is simply zero Sprint network coverage in Montana, where I live. None.2. I too worry about not having local sync. I can get by with Cloud sync if i am careful not to put confidential material where it needs to be synced.3. For me, 8 GB is enough for now. Would not mind having a micro SD slot, but I also want the phone to be small enough to fit in my shirt pocket, and my Treo 700P is too fat to do that. Of course my Blackberry is slim, and has a slot...4. Wouldn't mind voice dialing, but I rarely use it now.

1. Call quality will be very important. I have had phones with poor quality, and I hated them. 2. I am sure dialing from the contact list will work just fine.3. I agree that it would be smart for Palm to make a native Garnet emulation mode. After all, there are hundreds of good Palm apps that nobody will bother to port, that date back to the 1990s when Garnet first shipped. (Exageration, lol!) Seriously, this would seem like a no-brainer to me. Instant library of apps would be there at little cost to Palm.

I hope this ships SOON, with Sprint's exclusivity window only being 3 to 6 months. I would buy the Pre now, it is better than my current main phone (A Blackberry Curve 8330). However, if it doesn't come out until June, and then Sprint gets an exclusive deal for 6 to 12 months, this phone will not even be an option for me until next January at the earliest. By then, there will be a whole new crop of competitors that the Pre will have to beat, and some may well steal away market share. Will Palm sell an unlocked version of this phone that could be used on Verizon?

Far too often recently, Palm has failed to deliver quickly enough to win market share. Like I said above, I am stuck with Verizon(although I am fairly happy with them). The only Palm phones on Verizon are the Centro, and the 700 Wx. Why don't they ALREADY have a CDMA Palm Pro available on Verizon? For whatever reason, Palm phones border on being outdated before Verizon gets them, hence they don't get the market share they might if they came online faster.

I am also nervous about the Pre announcement because of what happened with the Foleo. Will they really deliver this time? I sure hope so.

RE: I'm not gushing!

RE: I'm not gushing!

My hopes for the Pre (roughly in order)1. Good phone, good connections, good sound2. Good PIM, which will import my palm data and not duplicate everything3. Good Browser, readable, usable, with flash 9 (hulu) (please add in a preference that does not let sites know it is a mobile browser, I'm tired of clicking real links and being sent to the fakre mobile site)4. Good Book Reader5. Read pdf, word docs, ebook formats6. Media player that handles different formats7. Compliant bluetooth compatible with my TOMTOM GPS(or good GPS with traffic on board)8. Garnet emulator9. Wifi works well, (Is it g or n?)10. Keyboard works well11. External keyboard12. Some fun little games

I was going to say Wii control emulator, then I pictured myself throwing my phone across the room :)

and for the Pre-IIMicro-SD slotIR for Remote controller software

It may also be a good time to start integrating all that home control stuff that tried to debut before its time: Turn house lights on and off, adjust thermostat, open garage door, unlock doors, start coffee maker, that sort of thing.

RE: I'm not gushing!

>> (Gekko) "i say that 99.9% of 3rd party Apps that don't already ship with the device are not really necessary and are mere fluff."

I would agree.

However, the 1% that AREN'T fluff need that functionality on the new phone. AND, that "non-fluff" is slightly different for each person - which makes it beyond the 1% and not so predictable. If a necessary application won't run on the WebOS and the developer refuses to update it quickly or isn't around to update it - then I gotta carry around a TX just for those few "necessary" apps? Crazy, when the possibility of an emulator is so obvious.

RE: I'm not gushing!

Gekko, if you're not going to have third party apps, what's the point of having a smartphone? Just get the Samsung Instinct or something else that pretends to be a smartphone and save yourself the effort.

jptx,

8. It does not come with a Garnet emulator.9. The WiFi is G.

Nice Article

RE: Nice Article

I'm not the only one, though. I recorded a ten-minute phone interview with Tom Conrad, the CTO at Pandora, today. he's pretty stoked as well and definitely not a fanboy. hopefully be able to post it tomorrow after I clean it up a bit... possibly removing the lame jokes he didn't laugh at. :(

RE: Nice Article

Pre $399-$499 w/o Contract?

>>>$399 Palm (NSDQ: PALM) Pre: The rumor about a $399 price point for Palm Pre has been…let's say "supported" rather than confirmed. Apparently Palm and Sprint (NYSE: S) are considering either $399 or $499 for the handset without a contract, and $149 or $199 for the handset with a contract reports UnwiredView. Mobile Review also puts the initial production run for the third quarter at 200,000 units, with the "the expectation that a very positive reception of the handset, combined with the shortages will fuel the demand as production volumes increase". I think this would be a bad idea—the Palm Pre is competitive now, that doesn't mean it will be competitive at the end of the year.

RE: Pre $399-$499 w/o Contract?

RE: Pre $399-$499 w/o Contract?

Joad, what'd I tell everyone to do last week when we posted the "Palm Handhelds Disappearing Fast" article right before CES? STOCK UP, STOCK UP, STOCK UP!

Heck, it might even make sense for Palm to keep the E2 or TX alive ad infinitum even after the Centro's gone just to have *SOMETHING* to point people to when they start crying the blues about no Garnet support on WebOS.

This means that programming a rich, interactive user experience on the Pre should be pretty easy with mojo/dojo (did that just sound like a power puff girls villian? ughh).

If I had to vote, I would say it's a good thing so long as it's done well without overhead that bogs things down. It certainly means Palm is serious about getting developers on this platform as this can only make dev easier, and the SDK instantly familiar to some existing devs.

_________________Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

RE: Palm Mojo uses Dojo?

There are various JavaScript/Ajax/DHTML frameworks/toolkits/libraries available, and Dojo is just one of them. The fact that they went with *any* known toolkit is a definitive plus. Was Dojo the best choice? Almost all frameworks/libraries out there are free, so we should assume Palm picked the best the one that best suits them.

Either way, I expect that "Mojo isn't vanilla Dojo"; just like the C programming for PalmOS wasn't strict ANSI C, my guess is that they've made some adaptions to Dojo so that it fits Palm's needs, or that it's a simply a subset of Dojo's libraries.

First Generation

RE: First Generation

where was the quote from, Gekko? And, yes, every 1st-gen product has bugs. Hell, EVERY product has bugs (this is a QA fact). Some products, though suffer much worse than others. If Palm put the thought, planning and attention to detail into the Pre/webOS that it appears they did, then the 1st-gen ride on the Pre should be smoother than many/most. Time will tell.

_________________Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

RE: First Generation

>>If Palm put the thought, planning and attention to detail into the Pre/webOS that it appears they did, then the 1st-gen ride on the Pre should be smoother than many/most. Time will tell.

On this, Palm's track record has been miserable, especially the past few years - and their willingness to admit problems is even worse.

Maybe this new phone is actually well tested and built, but that would be so far from Palm's proven track record that I would not bet on it. I would lay money on them having serious problems with the slider - *all* series of Tungsten T devices were badly designed and built - they fell apart in people's hands and Palm blamed their manufacturing problems on the users. Same with the malfunctioning Treo keyboards and audio jacks - to their credit they ARE not putting up a fight over replacing the bad jack phones, but any problem with the keyboard is blamed (sight unseen, even in person) on "dropping the phone" even when it's obviously never been dropped.

My stance

The Palm Pre is an interesting first-effort into a new world, but to me, it's not a Palm. It's some random iPhone competitor that has licensed the "Palm" name. I can't see myself migrating to it anytime soon, certainly not until as a very baseline it supports the things I did regularly on my T3.

First of all, I'm fine with a stylus. I liked the stylus. I could perhaps migrate away from the stylus with the right interface, but I'm not sure the Palm Pre is it. Regardless, I would've preferred a stylus option. A lot of us are very, very good and very fast with a stylus. It's not a failed means of input just because Apple says so.

No GSM. Deal breaker for me, at least if they're going to try and ram a smartphone down my throat. And I live in the USA. A lot of you think USA = non-GSM but that's not the case. I'd go with Verizon Wireless before I went with Sprint, and I absolutely detest Verizon with ultimate disgust. Reason being is coverage: Sprint has like no coverage unless you live in an urban area. All you saying "Sprint has the best coverage blah blah blah" are only basing it upon a very narrow, restricted area, and probably live in/near a city. Truly though, I'd prefer a PDA w/ wifi, and not a smartphone, especially when Palm's idea of a "phone" also includes them dictating what provider I go with.

No expandable memory? Also a dealbreaker. Sorry, but this is 2009. All my Palms had an SD slot. My current cell phone has an SD slot. My Blackberry has an SD slot. I couldn't care less what Palm says about "8GB is enough"... that's not their position to decide what I do and how I work, and if it is truly their attitude then they deserve to fail on this.

I'm not sold on the web-apps thing either, as I'm in the group that just doesn't see HTML/Javascript technology as powerful enough to deliver to me even equivalent versions of the programs I came to depend on with my old Palms, let alone move into a new realm of modern even more-powerful apps. But I don't even dwell on this much: it ends fast with no GSM and no expandable memory.

RE: My stance

Well stated. I get sick of the marketing hype people telling *ME* why I don't need such-and-such thing they forgot or cheaped out on including.

The three reasons I'd never get an iPhone as they stand:

1) No removable battery2) No removable flash3) No hardware keyboard

The "Pre" handles 1&3, but #2 is such a glaring oversight that I (again) wonder if the geniuses over at Palm ever actually USE their phones. They brought out the Treo 650 as a replacement for the Treo 600 - and because of the intro of NVFS it couldn't even hold 60% of the Treo 600's data. And, Palm had the balls to LIE to their customers and say we were wrong about that (a week later they finally gave in and admitted it).

If this "cloud" can safely backup my CDMA "Pre" while traveling in a GSM-only country for a couple weeks, if I can quickly and safely selectively restore a previous file that has become corrupted, if I can quickly restore 4GB of music over the air without incurring excessive bandwidth fees... maybe I don't need removable flash.

RE: That Sony Xperia

Ryan and I fondled the X1 quite a bit last week. After months of anticipation I got to lay my paws on one!

I can say that the screen is absolutely gorgeous, the optical d-pad thingie works surprisingly well, performance fairly snappy considering WinMob (it just chugs through it with brute force) but the accelerometer tends to lag, and is fabulously crafted & built.

But the keyboard blows and it's too "angular". I like the gently rounded "pebble" shape of the Pre-it appears to be far more pocketable than the X1.

>>>Mobile devices that sell well usually have a well-defined market of people who look at them and say, "that one's perfect for me." The Pre is intensely elegant, which intrigues aficionados like me, but there aren't enough of us to make a lasting market. Beyond that, it's apparently perfect for people who want a compromise between a Blackberry and an iPhone, but don't need the best of either. Who are those people? And are there enough of them to make a business for Palm? I honestly don't know.

And concludes with:

>>>What to do if you're a user

>>>Wait.

>>>We'll learn tons more about the Pre as it gets closer to shipping. Apple's undoubtedly working on new iPhone products (I'm betting on a smaller device, like a Nano version of the iPhone), RIM's getting the Storm debugged, Nokia is finishing the N97, and there are rumored to be more Android devices coming.* If you're thinking about getting a smartphone, you're going to have a great selection later this year. Hold out until you understand more about your choices.

>>>*There are probably some more Windows Mobile products coming too, but does anyone care any more?

And yet this guy says the FOLEO - the FOLEO - was as revolutionary as the Mac?! And seems to have tepid enthusiasm for the Pre?

He says this too:

>>>Palm discussion forums (for a wonderfully detailed article, check here), longtime Palm users don't appear to have a lot of compelling ties holding them to the new device. Their old apps won't work, and they'll have to learn a new interface. Usually when a company makes a transition like this without backward compatibility, the user base reads it as an invitation to consider alternatives.

RE: Michael Mace chimes in

don't insult netbooks by saying the fooleo begat the netbook. apples and oranges, night and day. stop making it sound like palm invented the netbook or had ANYTHNG to do with it!!! look at the timeline! impossible!! i hate historical revisionism!!!!!!!!!

RE: Michael Mace chimes in

RE: Michael Mace chimes in

The Fooleo was designed by the same guy that thought a proprietary flash card slot would be more useful than an industry standard one. I went with the TRGpro instead of Handspring because 1) industry standard flash and 2) flashable ROM.

Time has proven the Springboard pretty stupid. You can only run ONE thing at a time when you rely on something like this. When I went to the intro of the first cell phone springboard, I was astounded that Handspring thought it was going to work. As soon as you want to use the slot for anything but a phone, you have to remove the Springboard and you have no phone.. Brilliant.

The Fooleo was similarly crippled - it could have been a Netbook, but it was weirdly designed to be nearly useless except as a $500 accessory for the Treo. With very little use as an accessory. I wish Palm would have been putting that money and attention into thinking through the Pre a little better:

1) WTF:"Pre" name?

2) No removable flash? Heckova job, Brownie!

3) No PalmOS emulator? I guess all that talk about the availability of thousands of apps for the Palm over 13 years was just marketing smoke, Palm?

It looks like the "Preh" will be a bigger success than the Fooleo would have been, but Palm definitely took their eyes off the ball on a few fronts when they spec'd it out..

RE: Thoughts on the 'Pre' name?

I am officially nominating the name "Preh" as in "eh" as the street name of this device. It's pretty, but missing some needed accessories (SD, emulator) that should obviously be standard.

It's like selling cars in Phoenix that are only available without air conditioning, with no option of ever installing it - or *maybe* having an aftermarket one available at some undetermined point in the future by some other enterprising manufacturer.

RE: Thoughts on the 'Pre' name?

Good analogy, joad. But we have to be fair-you'd have to allow the drivers of those those cars in Phoenix to receive a daily delivery of a tray of ice cubes. It'd be enough to keep you cool through the morning but by noon you'd be toast.

The above analogy is exactly like 8gb fixed with no option to expand...it's enough to whet your appetitite and is somewhat of an improvement over Garnet's 4GB addressing limitation, but it's still inferior to the competition in both flexibility and capacity (no backups to SD cards etc).

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