Would you rather Arena and RBGs were played on completely flat maps with no collidable scenery?

Yes for battlegrounds, at least. Holding the Hot Gates (ala 300) is an arena with very little scenery. The scene at the end of 300 where there's a massive army and nothing but hills is what BGs should be (with an addition of objectives).

Warsong Gulch is a very silly BG: neither faction would allow the other to build a huge base like that in close proximity. And so on.

Originally Posted by Snuggli

It'd make healers awful, promote stupid stuff like triple DPS and in general increase the amount of CC that healers would eat.

Yes, but WoW needs a severe decrease in the amount of CC everyone has.

Originally Posted by Snuggli

LoS is amazing for this game - if you voted no, imagine what it'd be like without it.

I agree that LoS is amazing for the game, but it's far too exploitable in its current standard. I'm levelling a priest and could survive against a mage and a druid by pillar humping the Horde Berserking hut pillars, so much so they just ran away.

Pillar humping is the main reason I will never bother with high end arena.
There is absolutely nothing skillful about humping a pillar all day long. I prefer the whole 'run in and may the best team win'.

Pillar humping is the main reason I will never bother with high end arena.
There is absolutely nothing skillful about humping a pillar all day long. I prefer the whole 'run in and may the best team win'.

What. Where is the skill in running in and popping all your CDs? The easier to play and burstier comp with instant CC wins.

What. Where is the skill in running in and popping all your CDs? The easier to play and burstier comp with instant CC wins.

There is MASSIVE skill in line of sighting correctly.

So running in and popping cd's, be it defensive or offensive is retard mode. But running around a pillar all day takes MASSIVE skill? You sir are hilarious, and if you weren't a mod I would call troll.

Having been in two's matches where a Resto Shaman would just circle a pillar the entire game whilst his DK pet spammed chains of ice on us I think its retarded at times. Also the fact that channeled spells ignore LoS if the first tick hits (Confirmed by a GM). I would like an arena without Pillars, or even have them destructable in some cases, or removed after a period of time. I understand their use for defensive situations, but tenderly stroking it for five minutes pisses me off.

What. Where is the skill in running in and popping all your CDs? The easier to play and burstier comp with instant CC wins.

There is MASSIVE skill in line of sighting correctly.

There's arguably skill in any number of monotonous, tedious, and boring activities.

I think what people mean when they say there's no "skill" in pillar humping is that whatever skills are involved in successfully doing so have very little to do with the type of skill people usually think of when they think of "PVP skill".

Personally, as a non-PVP'er... I expect a certain amount of "Juking", dancing, hoping, and kiting, depending on the class and player. I expect a mage or a hunter to "cheese" certain aspects way more than a warrior. I expect a boomkin or resto druid to run from me a lot, CC me, knock me back, etc. That's all fair play. But they should be able to, reasonably, do all that, as much as I really think they were meant to, without pillars. I mean, if they NEED pillars in PVP, and that's what they're balanced around, then... why or how are they viable in world PVP, or BGs? I personally think all kits are balanced around non-pillar play, and I think excessive use of pillars is "cheesing" things, regardless of the "skill" involved.

If I told you that art restoration played a huge part in the professional bowling scene, you'd look at me like I was crazy. If it somehow made you win at bowling, you'd be upset and say that painting has nothing to do with bowling, why are all these people painting in my bowling tournament?

Well, excessive pillar humping and LoS'ing have nothing to do with skillful PVP play, and more than that even if it was a skillset relevant to PVP and arguably a part of PVP related skill, it's not compelling gameplay.

Also CC and burst and healing are all outa control and outa wack.

And PVP gear, and resil, and PVP power, are a joke.

And the gutting of tank vengeance was a bullet wound to fix a bandaid.

they pop offisive cds, you pop defensive, or use a well timed stun to shut them down.

Its much more dynamic to watch than someone chasing someone around a pillar all day. (and pillar humping being boring is why wow failed hard at esports)

I agree it's much more viewer-friendly if LoS isn't involved, as it removes an element of WoW which is already an extremely complex game. I wouldn't say pillar humping is the reason why WoW failed though, there is the lack of spectator client, lack of support from Blizzard, lack of fast balance changes and also the fact that Blizzard didn't want to push PvP in WoW (especially at an esport level), which meant that it didn't. If Blizzard wanted WoW back in MLG it would be there, probably even in its current state.

Originally Posted by Hallu

So running in and popping cd's, be it defensive or offensive is retard mode. But running around a pillar all day takes MASSIVE skill? You sir are hilarious, and if you weren't a mod I would call troll.

The emphasise on massive made me laugh out loud irl.

I didn't say it was retard mode, I just said it generally doesn't involve skill. Name 1 comp that trains from start to finish (mostly ignoring if someone is trying to LoS) and tell me it takes more skill than a comp that has to worry about the enemy team LoS'ing.

LoS'ing to avoid CC, LoS'ing for positioning and LoS'ing back and forth to avoid CS's etc are all part of what LoS brings to the table. It's simply not 'pillaring' and running round in circles (although that is a part of it). It's an extra dynamic, and a good one at that, and opens up a lot of options for healers to outplay their opponents. "Do I stand and fake, or freedom and try and get out of kick range?", "Do I push in to offensively dispel and risk being CCd, or stay behind pillar?", "Mage deep and frost orb is off CD, now is a bad time to move away from the pillar, but I also need to be in LoS of partners to peel for me".

All of those are active decisions which seperate the very best from the rest of the players in this game. It only takes 5 minutes of watching Cdew in Arena to understand why LoS is vital to the skillcap of the game.

I do not like it when I am the DPS trying to get at someone who is pillar humping, but as a healer, I love it. I did not see a option for "depends on what spec I am". Usually a necessity if you are a healer.

“What was God doing before the divine creation? Was he preparing
hell for people who asked such questions?” - Stephen Hawking

I don't know if people realize this, but pillar humping does take skill when you're playing 3v3 and have to watch out for CC coming from 2 enemy casters while topping your partners/attacking the enemy. It adds a huge dynamic to the game and requires a lot of multi-tasking seeing as you have to watch out for the positioning of at least 4 elements on the screen while dishing out your rotation and reacting to abilities. If you watch a player that positions himself carefully while taking into consideration range, I'm sure you'd think twice before saying it's "unskillful".

Its possible that there could be an in between? Maybe there is just too much pillar humping? It seems that people that offer commentary on games like WoW always tend towards one extreme or the other.

I think there is too much benefit to hardcore pillar humping, currently. I don't know what the solution to that problem is but the nature of the asinine burst (both from dps and healing) coupled with the intense amount of cc available basically necessitates near-constant pillar humping. When I heal in arena if I don't pillar hump I'm pretty much completely shut down. I'd like to see less pillar humping "game play" (I agree with the guy who said its not very compelling game play) but to have that you'd have to make other changes.

LoSing/pillar humping can be really gratifying and compelling game play when it involves you making a smart move to block an important spell. That goes completely out the window when its just a a pillar-humping merry-go-round match. There is very little that can be done to "outplay" a dedicated pillar humper.

Its possible that there could be an in between? Maybe there is just too much pillar humping? It seems that people that offer commentary on games like WoW always tend towards one extreme or the other.

I think there is too much benefit to hardcore pillar humping, currently. I don't know what the solution to that problem is but the nature of the asinine burst (both from dps and healing) coupled with the intense amount of cc available basically necessitates near-constant pillar humping. When I heal in arena if I don't pillar hump I'm pretty much completely shut down. I'd like to see less pillar humping "game play" (I agree with the guy who said its not very compelling game play) but to have that you'd have to make other changes.

LoSing/pillar humping can be really gratifying and compelling game play when it involves you making a smart move to block an important spell. That goes completely out the window when its just a a pillar-humping merry-go-round match. There is very little that can be done to "outplay" a dedicated pillar humper.

You can switch to one of his partners as well as save all your blankets for him when he comes into line of sight.

You're right except for 2 things.

1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

You can switch to one of his partners as well as save all your blankets for him when he comes into line of sight.

And what do you do if they both are pillar humping? As a melee, the thing I miss most is Ring of Valor arena. Sure, you had some pillars there too, but they were nowhere near as reliable as in say, nagrand or dalaran.

And to Snuggli, whose stance I understand because he's a druid, a class infamous for just running and nothing more: what's so skillful at a bursty comp being completely locked out because of simple movement? In 3s, bursting down ONE of the enemy player amounts to nothing if the other two force the match in a draw just by running around pillars. Stalling is not skill, it's being able to resort to cheap tactics. Everyone can do that given the proper tools.

Also, most melee have gap closers that require LoS. Until an all-open, no obstacle arena is implemented in the game, melee classes are at a disadvantage because every arena favors ranged/healers.

As a destro lock, i freaking hate pillars.. it gives me such a disadvantage if done correctly. but I guess it's part of the game. wouldn't mind an arena without any pillars or anything to hide from tho.