This morning, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulation using ADY instead of ADY for two 12" pizzas. That way, I could calculate the percent of starter you used in relation to the flour weight and/or total dough batch weight. I have presented the dough formulation below. However, my view is that if you are satisfied with your results as is, there is no need to change anything. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However, I am amazed at how close you came with your dough to the numbers I came up with in the dough formulation presented below. I thought for sure that you re-did the numbers to fit your situation. You are perhaps developing that "sixth sense" that good bakers and pizza dough makers get that allows them to do the kinds of extrapolations you did intuitively. In actuality, my number for the total dough batch weight is perhaps a bit on the low side because you also used a natural starter (45 grams). However, the numbers would still be quite close.

Based on the numbers presented below, 45 grams of natural starter represents about 8.2% of the total formula flour weight or about 4.8% of the total dough weight. Your actual numbers based on the weights you posted would be 8.5% and 4.9%, respectively. But, either way, those numbers are quite modest. However, I suspect that the large amount of commercial yeast (ADY) may overwhelm the leavening effects of the small amount of starter. The commercial yeast and the natural starter compete for the same nutrients and, in such a race, especially with a lot of commercial yeast, the commercial yeast is more likely to be the hare and the natural yeast is more likely to be the tortoise. There may still be byproducts of fermentation of the natural yeast to contribute to the final pizza crust, but they may be less pronounced than when the natural starter is used alone. Sometime, you might try repeating your recipe but leave out the natural starter to see if you can detect its omission. By contrast, you could repeat your recipe without any commercial yeast, just the natural starter. This would require some adjustments since the fermentation rate with the natural starter at the rate you used it is likely to be considerably slower than with the ADY at the rate you used the ADY. However, these experiments should teach you a lot about the characteristics and attributes of your particular natural starter. Of course, you would want to use the same bake method (grill or oven) and protocol for both pizzas. I don't know if you saw it, but I discussed a naturally leavened version of the PJ clone dough formulation at Reply 38 aat http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892.html#msg60892.

Peter, thank you for the recalculating the recipe. I'll save it and do the retest later.

I am working on gestimating some things as I gain more and more experience. Having read something awhile ago that the italian pizza makers only measure the water, and adjust everything else base on the feel of the dough, I have been secretly making that as a long term goal.

For now, I'm still measuring all the ingredients as closely as i can, but someday I'll get there. I have been scaling down recipes to make 10-12" pies as 14-16" tends to leave leftovers. At the rate I'm making pizzas, I don't want to eat leftovers. So to accomplish this I've been multiplying recipes by a factor of .75 or .8 to get a 12" pie. It's not perfect but it works pretty well. The ratios and percentages stay the same and i just get less dough. I stretch it to the same thickness as I would for a 14" pie.

For sauces, I've been adding tsp and tbs measurements in my hand and then double checking with a measuring spoon and make mental adjustments.

Yes, I've been learning s l o w l y about the powers and overuse of yeast. Per our conversation last night, I went ahead and made adjustments of the yeast and starter to the recipe already.

As you can see, I dropped half the amount of ADY and lowered the starter amount by 1/3. For a 24H emergency dough, I seriously doubt it will be much different from my first attempt but I'll try again soon and let you know.

I want to say thanks for posting the calculating tool often. I really do need to learn how to use it for myself. The members here can always count on your for the calculations and it may be making ppl like me lazy (or lazier).

Those are good suggestions for testing my natural starter vs ADY/IDY as I have often wondered if there is a difference in leavening power and taste as I spoon out the natural starter. I like many, only got use to using it b/c JV calls for it in his recipe.

Quick question about natural starters and yeast. Is it often that ppl will use both or just one or the other? I'm not sure that it matters but just curious about what you and others with experience do.

Have you done those tests yourself and what have you discovered? Does a natural starte give the crust a better flavor? texture? TIA

It is quite common for people to use a combination of commercial yeast and a natural starter or preferment. In Jeff's case, my recollection is that he calls for a small amount of commercial yeast in order to get more "puff" out of his dough and finished crust. My experience is similar, although I discovered that if I used both commercial yeast and a natural starter or natural preferment the results in terms of crust flavor and texture were not as good as using only a natural starter or natural preferment. With natural starters and natural preferments, the texture of the finished crust, and especially the crumb, is better in my opinion, in the sense that the structure of the crumb can be pulled and it will stretch and then pull back. Unlike the crumb structure of a loaf of bread that can have a fairly tight cell structure with voids of similar size and shape, especially if the dough is kneaded to full gluten development, the voids and alveoles of the crumb leavened naturally can have many different shapes and sizes. Of course, some of these issues can be addressed in bread doughs by using high hydrations and other methods.

For your information, and to answer your question on the use of both commercial yeast and a natural starter more fully, Professor Calvel calls this method the "hybrid" method. As you can see from Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg66414/topicseen.html#msg66414, the hybrid method as he practiced it was limited to very small amounts of commercial yeast and usually during the cool part of the year.

I applaud your desire to try to learn how to make pizza dough using volume measurements instead of weights, or using the amount of water as a starting point. Dom DeMarco of DiFara's has been making dough by hand--several batches a day--for over 40 years, using only volume measurements. That is not particularly hard to do when you are trying to make only a single type of dough or a single type of pizza. The same applies when you measure out only the water and then add the flour and other ingredients (almost always just salt and yeast and, in rare instances, a natural starter) to make a Neapolitan style dough. Again that is only one type and style of dough. It can be reproduced with practice and experience. However, there is nothing intuitive to making a dough such as the PJ American style dough described in this thread. I have made enough PJ clone doughs and understand them and can reproduce them at will, even from memory and with only a calculator to simplify the math, but it is only from experience that I am able to do it. A novice would be far better advised to measure out things than just try to throw a bunch of ingredients measured out volumetrically into a mixer bowl and hope that he or she gets lucky and the pizza turns out as hoped. The feel of the dough alone will not tell you how much oil and how much sugar to add and their interrelationship with the hydration. However, if your goal were to make only a PJ type of dough (which I know is not what you are planning to do), then in due course you would be able to reproduce that dough more or less by feel and by using volume measurements, just like Dom DeMarco.

Peter, you are right. I made a mistake and corrected the ADY for the IDY. I also agree that using volume measurements is more applicable to the same formulation used day in and day out. It's sort of fun for me to practice volume measurements for dry ingredients and even OO poured out of my oil dispenser.

You've definitely peaked my curiousity at the differences of commercial yeast vs. a natural starter. I got a tough question for you but you may still be able to help.

I'm interested in testing my natural starter vs ADY in a side by side pizza comparison. I'd like to make one pie using just my natural starter vs another pie with just ADY. So assuming that my natural starter is 50% flour and 50% water and that it is a typically active and healthy culture, is there a way to find an equivalent amount using ADY?

If you had to guess, what would be an equivalent amount of ADY to 15gm of natural starter (or approx. 1T)?

I am not sure whether I have a good answer to your question or even if the above methods are reliable but I think it might help to know more about the way you have been using your starter to make pizza dough. I assume that you have been cold fermenting your doughs leavened with your natural starter. However, it is not clear whether you have made doughs leavened entirely by your natural starter. If you have done so, can you tell me how much starter you used in relation to some reference point (such as the weight of the formula flour or total dough batch weight), if the dough went directly into the refrigerator after being made (i.e., no riposo), and what amount of rise (e.g., a doubling) took place when time came to use the dough, and how long did it take for the the dough to reach that point? Knowing the answers to these questions might allow me to estimate an amount of ADY to use to achieve a similar final condition of the dough, in this case, a PJ clone dough.

Oooh good question. I guess I haven't made pizzas using just the natural starter. I have always done a combination of starter and ADY, or ADY alone. But when i do use a starter, I usually use 15gm (1Tbs per 275-300gm doughball). Doughball rise is also subjective b/c as it rises it also flattens so it's really hard to guestimate. One can say it looks like the doughball has doubled or tripled but that is truely just a guestimation.

I have seen in previous posts mentioned of using the poppy seed technique, so I may read up on that and apply it if possible. I think for the first test I may use 15gm of starter vs. 1/2 tsp of ADY per 300gm doughball. I will employ the poppy seed technique and report back my findings. I think after the first test, we will have a basis on how to convert equipotent amounts of starter vs ADY.

I may have to start this test next weekend or even after since I have 4 doughballs cold fermenting in the fridge at the moment for 2 different tests.

What size PJ clone dough balls do you plan to use for your test and how long do you plan to cold ferment the dough balls? I assume you will be making one dough ball with the natural starter and one dough ball with the ADY and process them in parallel.

Yes Peter I plan on testing them side by side. One pie with natural starter and one with ADY. I plan on using making 2 (12") pies & doing a 3 day cold ferment and possible a different test with a 24 emergency dough or even a same day dough. The 3 day cold ferment should also reveal characteristics of yeast (natural or commercial) strength and activity My goal is to test to see if a natural starter really does impart a better flavor or if any over ADY. Does using starter equate to a better end result? I'm not sure that I will be using the PJ's recipe tho. I may be using a different recipe just to try something new or whatever strikes my fancy at the moment. I am aiming for each doughball to weigh between 275-300gm for a 12" pie. This is the typical size pizza I like to make. I will keep the ingredient weights and methods as close as possible with the only variable being the source of yeast. I'm interested in this experiment b/c i have always taken it at face value that a natural starter will impart (better) flavor to the crust. I have no issue accepting that, except I did notice that recipes such as GB's (that uses commercial yeast) calls for a 6-10 day cold ferment for increase flavor. I'm not quite sure if the "flavor" is coming from the commercial yeast itself or as a result of the break down of gluten and/or byproducts of yeast metabolism or both. If using a recipe other than the PJ's clone recipe, I will be starting a new thread as to not derail this one.

That's fine. However, off the top of my head I don't think that your two 300-gram dough balls, one with 15 grams of starter and one with 1/2 teaspoon of ADY, will exhibit similar performance, for example, in terms of volume expansion, over a three day cold fermentation period. That applies not only to a PJ clone dough but almost any other that is subjected to a three day cold fermentation period. I would have to play around with some dough formulations to back up my tentative conclusion.

Any suggestions you have would be appreciated and helpful. I would like to use about 15gm of my starter per 300gm dough ball and any equivalent amount of ADY you think is appropriate would work as a starting point. I trust your judgement over mine at this point. I'm in no hurry though. Thanks again.

While the matter is fresh in my mind, I took the basic PJ clone dough formulation and converted it to apply to the two situations you mentioned--one 300-gram dough ball using 1/2 teaspoon of ADY and a second 300-gram dough ball using 15 grams of your 50/50 natural starter. For the ADY dough ball, I got the following using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Right off the bat, at 1.08% ADY (1/2 t.), I know that the dough will not make it out to 3 days of cold fermentation and perform the same as a like-size dough ball with 15 grams of natural starter. At 1.08% ADY, you are in emergency dough territory. You might be able to punch the dough down a few times to get it to go out to three days of cold fermentation but you will have altered the parameters to the point where the comparison would not be valid.

Note: Natural starter is 5% of total dough weight or 8.45% of the total flour; no bowl residue compensation

It is hard to say how much the dough represented in the above dough formulation will expand after three days of cold fermentation, but with the natural starter at 5% of the total dough weight, or 8.45% of the flour weight, the rise may not be dramatic. I once modified the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to create a naturally-leavened cold fermentation version and it took 20% of the formula flour (or 10.8% of the total dough weight) for the dough to be ready after 45 hours of cold fermentation (see Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774). Unfortunately, at the time I did not think to note the degree of volume expansion but my recollection is that it was not dramatic. Also, my natural starter was usually on the weak side because I did not use it often enough.

As you can see, it is difficult to establish natural starter/commercial yeast conversions without having some reference point. In your case, as a starting point, you might make a 300-gram naturally leavened dough and monitor its expansion over time and note when it reaches a particular expansion value, such as a doubling, as by using the poppy seed method. I think I would use your natural starter at more than 8.45% of the flour weight, but maybe less than 20%. I have made many different types of cold fermented doughs using natural leavening, and my practice has been to use around 20% of the flour weight. Sometimes, as when using a weak starter, I might even use more. To the extent you end up with useful data to analyze should you decide to conduct an experiment along the lines mentioned above, then it should be easier to try to match an ADY version to that data for purposes of further experiments.

If you decide to use a dough formulation other than a PJ clone dough formulation and you start a new thread to detail your experiment, I can help you with the math if you need it.

Thank you for the numbers and insight Peter. Based on your experience, I may just make 2 300gm doughballs, one with 30gm natural starter (~16% of the total dough weight) and the other with 1/4 tsp ADY. I will apply the poppyseed technique to both balls and monitor daily to see the expansion rate and the total number of days before each doubles in size. I can use this as a reference point for future tests as well.

Recently, as a submission to this month’s (April, 2010) Monthly Challenge, “Breakfast Pizza”, I decided to use a PJ emergency dough to make a pizza for that submission. The pizza, which is shown below and also at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10648.msg96744.html#msg96744, is a sausage gravy pizza with an egg. I decided on the PJ emergency dough for convenience so that the pizza could be made from beginning to end in a bit over two hours. The dough would not be an optimum dough, but it would save time. I also wanted to see if the PJ emergency dough was a good choice for a breakfast (or brunch) pizza. The pizza I made was smaller than I would normally make. It was a personal size, at 8”. The pizza was baked on a 9” pizza screen. For the 8” size, I scaled down the emergency dough formulation set forth at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. The scaled-down dough formulation that I actually used, from the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is as follows:

It will be noted from the above dough formulation that I used only King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) this time rather than my usual blend of KABF and vital wheat gluten (such as the Hodgson Mill VWG). As I later discovered, this resulted in a softer and less chewy finished crust. So, if I were to use the above dough formulation again, I would personally replace part of the formula flour with VWG, based on achieving a total protein content for the blend of 14.2%. Alternatively, I might use a longer fermented PJ clone dough, possibly one fermented overnight, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator.

The dough was hand kneaded using the same methods as described in the abovementioned Reply 52, except that I did not sift the flour this time. The dough was allowed to ferment at room temperature (around 69.6 degrees F). It took a bit over an hour to double in volume, and almost two hours to triple in volume. It was after the two-hour fermentation that I decided to use the dough to form a skin to make the pizza. As the dough was fermenting, I prepared all of the ingredients to be used to assemble the pizza. These details are set forth at the above referenced Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10648.msg96744.html#msg96744 .

With the foregoing posts as background, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at []pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following recommended PJ dough clone formulation, which, based on the results I achieved, I believe represents a good starting point to make a very good PJ clone dough and pizza:

First, I used King Arthur bread flour (KABF)—only because I do not have any high-gluten flour on hand. Although a high-quality bread flour, like the KABF, is a very good choice based on my results using that flour, my recommendation to others is to consider using a high-gluten flour if it is available. Typically, a high-gluten flour has a protein content of around 14%, as compared with 12.7% for the KABF. Although it is not entirely clear what flour PJ’s is currently using (it is a proprietary blend), in the past it has used high-gluten flour to prepare its dough. Its current flour is described only as being a “high protein” flour (see, for example, []uppereast.com/papajohns.html).

...

Hey Pete,

I've decided to go ahead and follow this recipe as you state this is the closest tasting PJ-clone you've created.

However, I won't be using a dough blender (e.g. KitchenAid) but will be mixing/kneading the dough entirely by hand; are there any specific procedures I should follow that differ to the above method (such as increasing the bowl residue compensation to, perhaps, 2.5%)?

Some questions on my mind:

How long should the dough be kneaded for?

Will I have to alter the mixing steps to account for hand mixing and kneading?

What indicators do I look for to gauge the suitability of the dough?

I'm looking forward to this; just purchased a 14inch pizza screen for this pizza experiment.

The particular Papa John's dough clone formulation you selected, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, may be one of the harder versions to execute using hand kneading. Hand kneading a roughly 21 ounce dough ball can take some time and if it is warm where you are, the finished dough temperature may be on the high side. If that happens, then the useful life of the dough can be shortened and may not make it out to five or more days. It is possible to use cold water, for example, right out of the refrigerator, to make the dough but cold water makes it more difficult to adequately hydrate the flour and, even then, the dough can fairly quickly approach room temperature during the hand kneading process.

However, if you are game and want to try a hand kneaded version of the abovereferenced dough formulation, I think I would use the hand kneading approach described at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672 except that you would be working with all water, not a mix of milk and water. That post gives a typical knead time and attempts to describe the finished dough condition but, as is often true with hand kneading, the knead time can vary from one person to another. The key point is to work fast so as to get the dough into the refrigerator as soon as possible.

Since I was trying to replicate an authentic PJ pizza dough using the abovereferenced clone dough formulation, I did not attempt a hand kneaded version. So, if you proceed, I hope you will share your results with us, including photos if possible.

Next week, I'll edit this post to include a link to my write-up of the finished product + pics.

EDIT:

OK, so I've just checked on the dough to gauge progress, it's been approx 2 hours since I placed them in the fridge.

I have a concern: the second dough (d.2) seems to have already expanded, by approx 10-20% (forgot to use the "poppy seed technique", so I'm judging by eye). I recall having to pop a small, shallow bubble on the surface area of the shaped dough before placing it in the refrigerator.

I'm guessing there could have been a number of factors that caused this, each of which were not under my complete control: temperature of water; room temperature; and yeast amount. I'll be purchasing an electronic scale and a cooking thermometer so that in the future I can control these factors.

Given the above situation, how best can I control the fermentation process to give the best tasting dough/crust?

Should I push d.2 down once it doubles in size (and if so, do I push down and re-knead?), and continue let it ferment for a minimum of 3 days (5 optimum)?

With only 0.14% IDY, you shouldn't have seen much of a rise in d.2 after only two hours. Normally, you would need a lot more yeast than that or, otherwise, the water would have had to be fairly warm to cause the dough to rise that fast.

Under the circumstances, if the dough ball doubles before three days are up, I think I would gently deflate the dough ball and use a few stretch and folds (rather than re-kneading the dough) while trying to retain the generally round shape of the dough ball. I would then put the dough back into the refrigerator.

Pete and everyone else who has been experimenting with this recipe, how do you manage to get the dough onto the screen without it losing its circular shape and even thickness?

I often use a rolling pin to shape the dough because I find it difficult to get an even thickness throughout the dough by hand-shaping. When I pick up the dough -- by peeling the edges off the worktop and lifting it up onto my forearm -- to place on the pizza screen, the dough immediately begins to extend and loses its 14inch even thickness.

Can you offer me some tips or techniques for getting such an extensible dough onto the screen?

Without knowing whether you have been following the dough formulations pretty closely, and particularly the aspects that are temperature sensitive (e.g., water temperature and finished dough temperature), it is hard to say why your doughs skins have been so extensible. If you are already compliant with the temperature aspects, you could try lowering the hydration or you can try using a much shorter temper time before shaping and forming the dough balls into skins. I have seen workers at Papa John's use cold dough right out of the cooler. That meant having to dock the heck out of the dough but it seemed to work.