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@Devs, 2 Adjustments for Stealth Classes

What was designated as a Creep fix that was overall a great thing for the Moors, turned a class into Easy-Mode, and smashed the skill curve to bits.

At the moment LOTRO has a problem.

What was designated for a fix to an underpowered class in PvE, turned a class into Easy-Mode, and smashed the skill curve to bits.

Let's get something out of the way real quick:

ATTENTION, SSG, KEEPING BOTH STEALTH CLASSES IN AN EASY, FLAVOR OF THE MONTH POSITION IS NOT IN YOUR BEST INTEREST.

The classes we are speaking of, are, of course, Warg and Burglar, and the reason for their "demise" is Bestial Claws and Devastate Aim Cunning attack, respectively.

So how do we fix it?

*Disclaimer*
I've played this game for some time, but with my schedule, I don't have much time to grind, so my Freepside opinion on Burglar specifically may not be spot on. Anyone who has any other suggestions, please speak up!

BURGLAR

Burglar has (in my opinion) numerous issues. Stacking dust, Coup De Grace, All-In swapping, but I'm going to try to address the two biggest issues I see with Burglar at the moment:

1. Devastate Aim Set must be fixed so that every Bleed tick does not Auto Critical Hit (confirmed bug and NOT working as intended).
2. Revert Ready and Able's Cooldown back at 10-30 Minutes, so access to all Four Cooldowns is limited.

-The reasoning for the first is obvious. Devastate Aim Cunning attack is not only a bug, but it's a mechanic that's made the class significantly easier to play, and appealed massively to Easy-Moders. Having the majority of your DPS come from a single attack from stealth is beyond absurd.

-The second is also pretty self-explanatory, although I expect resistance on this change, as it has an effect (albeit small) on PvE.

WARG

1. Bestial Claws Damage must be redistributed (does approximately 55-65% of Warg damage, depending on Critical Defense, Rotation quality, and Crowd Control.
2. We must continue the fix on Warg escape capability by nerfing Sprint In-Combat Run Speed to 50-60% to reduce the effectiveness of death prevention.

- I ran numerous extensive tests on the formula needed to revert Warg damage similar to what it was around HD. The goal is to keep Bestial Claws as a fundamental part of the rotation, but to restore damage priority of Scratch and Snip, and to restore the importance of secondary damage contribution (Rend, Swipe, and Bloody Maul). This will spread out the damage of Warg skills, and restore the importance of rotation.

These numbers were tested extensively, and the result is a reduction overall Warg damage output by approximately 5%. High damage output will still be attainable for those willing to put some time into their class.

The result, as mentioned above, is Warg's overall output of damage is almost identical, but the class has more skill variety, and rotation becomes more important again. This also is a nerf to overall burst damage. One adverse result of this change is that Warg's will be more reliant on Critical hits and BPE, however, unlike classes like Burglar and Champion, Wargs will not have their damage totally crippled from RNG.

I believe it is in SSG's best interests in sustaining their small Money Machine of PvMP to ensure that stealth classes have their place, and that they are deadly in the right hands. However, it is also in their interests that Stealth classes are balanced like any other class, otherwise the game will continue to suffer from a mass of people playing a class designed with powerful escaping (anti-PVP) capabilities.

It's also worth nothing that even mediocre/average Wargs will continue to have the ability to put out decent damage, but like other classes, will be forced to apply themselves if they wish to improve.

These changes (especially for Warg) are absurdly easy, and aren't anything new to the class, merely a reversion to closer match how the class used to play.

Spilo you of all people should know by now that these threads never make a difference, nearly ten years of these threads and none have ever been acknowledged, that being said... I am fine with burg and warg, denying positional is the best way to counter there dps.

Whilst I do understand Aim Dev set with cunning attack is deadly instead of calling for nerfs and expecting them to change a whole mechanic of the class, you would have been better of asking for it to be applied as a potable bleed this would be easier and would also enable the chance for resists like warden bleeds.

Wargs on the other hand don't need distributed damage they just need to nerf bestial claws by 25% yes they will still hit like a truck but they are supposed to they are a top tier creep dps class.

And whilst you complain about burg and warg just be grateful they buffed warg in the first place it's been a very long time that creeps were severely underpowered, this is the most balanced I've seen in a long long time and I'm enjoying the fact I die often and I can't roflstomp everything.

To be completely honest As a creep I fear spiders most not wargs and as a creep I fear hunters and fire rks most, not the burg or warg, there is other things they could do with limited time and resources such as fix outdated npc damage which would be hugely welcomed and not use to much of their resources, what about 105 audacity ?? +60% CC duration freeps get compared to creeps, complaining about stuff at the bottom of the pile is the sole reason these things your talking about will not change

Whilst I do understand Aim Dev set with cunning attack is deadly instead of calling for nerfs and expecting them to change a whole mechanic of the class, you would have been better of asking for it to be applied as a potable bleed this would be easier and would also enable the chance for resists like warden bleeds.

###...
fixing an obvious bug is much better than destroying all burglar bleeds, which would happen if you make them pottable. burgs can only use a bleed once each 5 seconds (plus very weak bleeds depending on traits).
and yes, aim def CA is an obvious bug. calling it a class mechanic is quite weird.

You are right Spilo, both stealth classes are powerful in PvP for a while, especialy cause of damages and escaping possibilities.
It's very difficult to balance a fix without review, I notice that "bestial claws" is the heart of problem from warg.
There's a single solution to nerf warg asap (also applicable to burglars in moors)

###...
fixing an obvious bug is much better than destroying all burglar bleeds, which would happen if you make them pottable. burgs can only use a bleed once each 5 seconds (plus very weak bleeds depending on traits).
and yes, aim def CA is an obvious bug. calling it a class mechanic is quite weird.

a randomly critted CA doesnt make its dot crit.
a randomly dev'd CA doesnt make its dot crit.
aim CA doesnt make its dot crit without dev-aim-set.

so why should dev-aim force all dots to crit? just doesnt make any sense. Its been there for long, but still quite obviously bugged to me.
Barrage tiering hasnt been fixed although its available since HD, just like Minstrels groupbolstercourage.
LM has a trait and a legacy that increase AC potential by certain amounts. using both and there is a big bonus. been around for long, but the bug is still obvious.

Not taking PvE in situation, then no stealth class should HIPS incombat after start they start combat.
About dps fix, i agree with you Spilo, that dmg distribution need to spread for more skills and more complex rotation.
Atleast not pressing 1 2 3 like wargs or blue hunters atm.

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supereme excellence.
Supreme excellence consist in breaking enemys resitance without fighting" Sun Tzu - the Art of War.

Tricks have always stacked and should continue to stack. Removing stacking of them will ruin the class for pve. Cdg needs about 20-25% nerf

Claws will need imo just 25% nerf and fix always critting bug and it should be way better balanced.

Also speaking of warg... Shadow stance should not ignore partials they should change that, amount of ez moding wargs have considering they ignore all avoidances is stupid.

Yes, but Dust has a legacy. That legacy goes up to 32.6%, which means you're going to have a 97.8% chance of missing with 3 Burglars. That's a big part of the reason why Burglar packs are so insanely gamebreaking. At the very least, Dust should not stack- that would have zero effect on any meaningful PvE (stacking Disable and Enrage are really the only relevant Endgame PvE tricks).

The Auto Crit "Bug" is a class design clearly intended from both the design of Shadow stance and The Element of Surprise trait. If you remove the Auto-Crit and nerf claws by 25%, you'd be placing a significant nerf (somewhere in the ball park of 30-40%) on Warg damage overall, while doing nothing to give Warg rotation any variety. Making Wargs bypass avoidances is yet another fundamental part of Shadow stance that you're looking to change. Changing that would be another 10-15% nerf to damage.

While I only agree with some of the suggestions posted, I think we need to be careful on lumping the burg and warg together as we'll begin to see blanket suggestions that don't target their very unique issues. Here are some of my very brief thoughts on the two suggestions you posted:

1) Dev aim bleed bug should be fixed. I have no issue with this.
2) While I am not fully against somewhat lengthening the cooldown of Ready and Able to avoid cowardly play etc., doing so could actually produce quite the opposite effect. What you may see is burglars who camp cooldowns even more so than they do now. This is something that was present many many years ago when the cooldown was significantly longer. While this would likely pacify the creep population as it's less time they have to deal with burglars, it does little to improve the state of things overall. I could craft an argument that having the short Ready and Able cooldown actually promotes better action as burgs are willing to engage foes more frequently knowing they have more opportunities to remove slows, snares, roots, dots etc., and thus the creeps have more opportunity to land kills on the burglar. The burglar is perhaps the squishiest class in the entire game with limited self-healing capabilities, limited overall effectiveness of touch n go (poor reavers), and low morale pools. Doing something to the cooldown of a skill that allows the burglar to more competently engage 1 or more foes could potentially do more to hinder the action than promote healthy action. The arguments I see proposing an increase to the cooldown always hinge on the fact that a burglar ran away from a fight. In my 9 years playing burglar, I can guarantee this will happen regardless of the length of the skill's cooldown. So lengthening the cooldown may result in burglars camping that cooldown even harder before engaging in any form of combat, and thus doing more harm than good to the overall state of combat in the moors. Creeps have plenty of opportunities to deal with burgs using HIPS to escape fights. Competent creeps get by just fine with this. Furthermore, so many creep dots/reflect damages etc. have lengths above 10 seconds and are not removed upon HIPS, thus guaranteeing the burglar will be pulled back out of stealth following the HIPS safety duration.

You also touched on some other potential issues:

1) The devs need to fix the secondary attacks on flashing blades etc., so the damage output following a crit or dev isn't actually worse than the damage from a non-crit. This is beyond ridiculous and is about as broken as the dev aim bleed. I realize this is a proposed buff, but it's how the skills were intended to function.
2) Stacking dust. I am not completely 100% sure they straight stack as you mentioned. I seem to recall with other skills that when multiple applications of the same skill were applied to the same target, the effectiveness of each after the first application was fractioned.
3) Coup de Grace damage could be lowered somewhat or reworked as a skill that fits into a typical rotation as a finisher or crit-chain member. Though on a properly traited creep, CDG isn't as game-breaking as the complaining on creepside makes it seem. The skill will combine for ~30,000 damage on a partially phyisical mitigation traited creep. That's approximately 25% of an average 120,000 morale creep. The skill has a 1 min cooldown. Skills such as bestial claws, and multiple spider skills (mephitic etc.) produce 20-30% of an average freeps morale (and fully mitigation capped) on hugely shorter cooldowns. So I don't think the state of CDG is quite as wildly crazily imbalanced as the whining on creepside makes it seem. There are likely bigger issues that should be focused on.
4) All-in swapping shouldn't be allowed. The effectiveness of the swap is somewhat minimal as you need very sterile conditions to even pull it off with some level of success, but this should be removed altogether. There's no need for it whatsoever.

These are just some of my many thoughts on the issue in the small time I had to respond to this thread.

@Hurtful, thanks for the feedback, I was hoping you'd give your 2 cents.

I think your opinion on Ready and Able is fair, and it's true that the poor attitude of the Playerbase regarding cooldowns does have an effect on it. This is why I wouldn't have a problem with it being only increased to 10 minutes. I just have a strong issue with a class that can Double Hips with such alarming frequency. As far as squishy goes, if we fix Bestial Claws and Nerf Spider damage (as needed), you would not be able to consider Burglars squishy.

I also agree on your changes regarding FB, CDG, and All-In. CDG really only becomes an issue when used from stealth, and especially when combined with All-In (as you accurately described, not as common as an issue as Creepside would like to proclaim). I would love to see Burg damage be reverted back to reliance off of positional and rotation, rather than CA/CDG.

When/if Dev Aim CA is fixed, I would love to see Flashing Blade off-hand be fixed.

Fix Dev Aim. Put RAA at 10mins CD (30minutes is just ridiculous). Make CDG a crit chain finisher but obviously halve the damage and CD. Burg fixed, no more FOTM, no more crazy 50% morale hits. Also absolutely NO to making CA pottable (whoever suggested that).

I think a 5% "nerf" to Warg DPS doesn't go anywhere near far enough, they're still by an absolute mile the most survivable class, and I'm not being funny but putting Claws damage into S&S and Rend isn't exactly making the rotation rocket science... Maybe 1% "harder" lol.

There is absolutely no denying that Warg crit is bugged, there's an accountable total of somewhere in the range of 45-50%, and yet an additional 50% comes from Shadow stance. 100% crit/dev chance is dumb, and needs fixing, it's basically the reason Warg is so broken, as with a high (50% as it should be) crit chance their DPS would still be very high but not guaranteed ridiculous.

The reason I say that 5% doesn't go far enough is that Wargs achieve literally DOUBLE the DPS of any other DPS class, whilst having guaranteed escapes, tracking, stealth and ease of play. Why should a Warg do 5k DPS where a decent BA can hope to get 2.5k if uninterrupted? Warg needs a 50% reduction in Claws and Maul damage, flat out, that's it, it doesn't need that damage brought back in on two skills that are part of the standard rotation anyway.

I think a 5% "nerf" to Warg DPS doesn't go anywhere near far enough, they're still by an absolute mile the most survivable class, and I'm not being funny but putting Claws damage into S&S and Rend isn't exactly making the rotation rocket science... Maybe 1% "harder" lol.

There is absolutely no denying that Warg crit is bugged, there's an accountable total of somewhere in the range of 45-50%, and yet an additional 50% comes from Shadow stance. 100% crit/dev chance is dumb, and needs fixing, it's basically the reason Warg is so broken, as with a high (50% as it should be) crit chance their DPS would still be very high but not guaranteed ridiculous.

The reason I say that 5% doesn't go far enough is that Wargs achieve literally DOUBLE the DPS of any other DPS class, whilst having guaranteed escapes, tracking, stealth and ease of play. Why should a Warg do 5k DPS where a decent BA can hope to get 2.5k if uninterrupted? Warg needs a 50% reduction in Claws and Maul damage, flat out, that's it, it doesn't need that damage brought back in on two skills that are part of the standard rotation anyway.

Here's an uninterrupted parse, on a Blue Mini with a Tome/Pop Buff. Minstrel was stationary, I was traited 6 crit, 6 mastery, and we had 3 Outposts.

5k DPS numbers only come from short fights where burst plays a huge part, and that would only be on very squishy targets with no CC involved. It's the equivalent of some BAs reaching 7k DPS because Headshot, VT, and Revenge all crit. As I've said, you're going to see short situation DPS numbers shrink, but sustained DPS numbers remain relatively the same. In addition, if we nerf Sprint's effectiveness, it'll be the second nerf to Warg survivability, and put them in a relatively balanced situation to their Freep counterparts.

Tooltips for Shadow says specifically increased Critical Chance, as it does with The Element of Surprise. You can play with the numbers when using 3 crit, Shadow stance, The Element of Surprise, and watch the Crit chance for Claws and Maul rise and fall depending on what you have slotted. Nowhere in LOTRO will you find a suggested 50% crit chance.

When you put an extremely high damaging skill like Claws, and you reduce its Crit chance, you hurt Warg's sustain (which isn't considerably broken), but you leave the Burst up to chance, and allow Average Wargs to continue looking better than they are.

You reduce Claws and Maul damage by 50%, you reduce Warg damage by 30-40%. No thanks. I'm proposing a solution that would significantly reduce the damage of 95% of the Warg community, make the class fun to play again, and even give the 5% of Competitive Wargs a weaker burst to balance out 1v1 fights. In addition, these changes would reduce Warg sustain in realistic situations, because being CCed would hurt your sustain more than it does now, where all you need is a handful of skills.

@Hurtful, thanks for the feedback, I was hoping you'd give your 2 cents.

I think your opinion on Ready and Able is fair, and it's true that the poor attitude of the Playerbase regarding cooldowns does have an effect on it. This is why I wouldn't have a problem with it being only increased to 10 minutes. I just have a strong issue with a class that can Double Hips with such alarming frequency. As far as squishy goes, if we fix Bestial Claws and Nerf Spider damage (as needed), you would not be able to consider Burglars squishy.

I also agree on your changes regarding FB, CDG, and All-In. CDG really only becomes an issue when used from stealth, and especially when combined with All-In (as you accurately described, not as common as an issue as Creepside would like to proclaim). I would love to see Burg damage be reverted back to reliance off of positional and rotation, rather than CA/CDG.

When/if Dev Aim CA is fixed, I would love to see Flashing Blade off-hand be fixed.

The thing with this is, I am extremely hesitant to suggest reducing creep damage outputs overall. Redistribution seems logical, allowing skilled players able to perform above unskilled players. In my opinion, the main culprit behind all of these arguments is achieving balance in the face of massively overpowered freep healing capabilities. For many updates, creeps were massively underpowered and essentially helpless against freep healing. What did the players do when the devs wouldn't do anything about OP freep heals? They grouped up...often in exponential numbers to combat ridiculously powerful and easy to achieve freep healing. Ever since, with each new update, the Devs are tasked with attempting to creep (no pun attended) creep damage upward to allow them to compete in the moors in the face of ridiculous freep healing mechanics. Thus, I have extreme hesitation of reducing overall dps outputs from creeps if it prevents them from competing adequately against freep healing.

I believe this has a trickle-down effect to the non-healing freep classes. Buffing creeps to compete with freep healing leaves the burg in a very tenuous spot in LOTRO balance. Increases in damage through new gear/virtues/stat tomes etc. keeps us relevant, but the burg still has very little in the way of "oh ####" skill capabilities and/or healing capabilities that counteract these moments. While HIPS can be annoying and often leads the creep feeling robbed of a kill if the burg uses the skill to bail from combat, it remains one of our only options to handle those negative combat moments and shift the fight back into a manageable position.

If you look at perhaps the most popular and highest grossing MMO of all time, you see the burg equivalent with a similar skill, one that removes dots and allows the player to briefly escape some of those "oh ####" situations. Like I mentioned in my previous post, when the cooldown of Ready and Able was significantly longer, people literally sat out of play until the skill came back up. Others who had multiple toons swapped while they waited out the lengthy cooldown. I would hate to punish the class too significantly and rob us of some staying power in a fight because creeps don't like fighting players who can escape fights. If this is changed too significantly, not only will it hurt overall gameplay at a time when LOTRO subscriptions are already falling, but it will rob the offensive-minded burglar of some craftiness in gameplay options.

EDIT: Let's also not forget that the base cooldowns of HIPS is 7 minutes. The burglar has to devote about half his or her trait points to reduce the cooldown and make HIPS remove dots. Yes, most burgs have this, because blue and yellow lines are trash, but it can't be altogether assumed this is the baseline for the burglar class.

Dear Spilo. On my warg I usually jump freeps and force them into 1vs1 fights.
When I do this I encounter 2 types of freeps: 1. Those I trash in a few seconds without any problems. 2. Those who trash me in a few seconds without any problems.
It's all about the gear and the real problem is essences which made freeps able to cap both mits, crit defence, crit and stacking high morale and mastery. Maybe get some high finesse as well since theres some space for it. So what is the problem on freep side?
The other day I fought a hunter who had 49k morale so I just assumed he would do low dps. Turns out I took more then 10k inc dps from that 1vs1 fight... It can't be hard being a freep when you got stats like that. The difference between proper geared freeps and those who got average gear is just insane, so if you lose on freep side; improve your stats. I wouldn't struggle much killing everything at sight if I had 40+ corruptions on my creeps, which pretty much is the creep version of essences.

I do suppose you already know the game and how does all this works, well, I'll throw my two cents, the main fault is the playerbase, aiming to the flavour of the month class, today are burglars, hunters and wargs, spiders, tomorrow... who knows... and that playerbase will aim to the "who knows" class until another fotm class is thrown to the field, so, there's an easier fix than nerfing or boosting. Simple, As far as I know, Ettenmoors has their own vendors, right? So, maybe disabling pve gear and forcing freeps to use every item earned at Ettenmoors vendors if they want to access pvmp is a must, nowadays the majority of lotro playerbase is pve oriented, about 70%, vs 30% or less who plays pvmp. Simple as making it going each way, you want pvmp? Earn your items at pvmp traders, you want pve? do pve, and get pve rewards but never useable at pvmp areas, that way, pvmp will not be so broken as it is, because giving acess of insane gear who's deadly in any decent player, giving freep foes zero chances to win, but a warg is still deadly because they are not using audacity, that great and useles adition to pvmp, so wargs destroys a freep, because of his pve gear, they will cc, and burn insane damage, then most freeps dies, that's all. Skills works fine, and been a long time since freeps and creeps are that paired, but, instead pointing fingers on burglars and wargs, do it on gears, and of course, on the playerbase who will choose that classes the most, because... well, who needs more explanation after 10 years...

The thing with this is, I am extremely hesitant to suggest reducing creep damage outputs overall. Redistribution seems logical, allowing skilled players able to perform above unskilled players. In my opinion, the main culprit behind all of these arguments is achieving balance in the face of massively overpowered freep healing capabilities. For many updates, creeps were massively underpowered and essentially helpless against freep healing. What did the players do when the devs wouldn't do anything about OP freep heals? They grouped up...often in exponential numbers to combat ridiculously powerful and easy to achieve freep healing. Ever since, with each new update, the Devs are tasked with attempting to creep (no pun attended) creep damage upward to allow them to compete in the moors in the face of ridiculous freep healing mechanics. Thus, I have extreme hesitation of reducing overall dps outputs from creeps if it prevents them from competing adequately against freep healing.

I believe this has a trickle-down effect to the non-healing freep classes. Buffing creeps to compete with freep healing leaves the burg in a very tenuous spot in LOTRO balance. Increases in damage through new gear/virtues/stat tomes etc. keeps us relevant, but the burg still has very little in the way of "oh ####" skill capabilities and/or healing capabilities that counteract these moments. While HIPS can be annoying and often leads the creep feeling robbed of a kill if the burg uses the skill to bail from combat, it remains one of our only options to handle those negative combat moments and shift the fight back into a manageable position.

If you look at perhaps the most popular and highest grossing MMO of all time, you see the burg equivalent with a similar skill, one that removes dots and allows the player to briefly escape some of those "oh ####" situations. Like I mentioned in my previous post, when the cooldown of Ready and Able was significantly longer, people literally sat out of play until the skill came back up. Others who had multiple toons swapped while they waited out the lengthy cooldown. I would hate to punish the class too significantly and rob us of some staying power in a fight because creeps don't like fighting players who can escape fights. If this is changed too significantly, not only will it hurt overall gameplay at a time when LOTRO subscriptions are already falling, but it will rob the offensive-minded burglar of some craftiness in gameplay options.

EDIT: Let's also not forget that the base cooldowns of HIPS is 7 minutes. The burglar has to devote about half his or her trait points to reduce the cooldown and make HIPS remove dots. Yes, most burgs have this, because blue and yellow lines are trash, but it can't be altogether assumed this is the baseline for the burglar class.

I agree. I've participated in organized GvG fights with my Tribe, and honestly group fights seem fairly balanced, with Freeps having the advantage with Heals and Armor debuffs, and Creeps having the advantage of CC.

I guess my problem with Burglar HIPS (and Warg HIPS before they nerfed it) is it's an option to "shift the fight back into a manageable position," yes. But it's also to "run like the Wind." It's hard to put a blanket problem with HIPS, because you and I both use HIPS offensively in 1v1 situations, but defensively to prevent getting zerged. It becomes part of a larger issue of how zergy the game has become.

Regardless, I think we can both agree on a Ready and Able cooldown of 10 minutes and move on.

@grapez, Hunters can indeed put out a lot of damage, which is why I am against nerfing Warg damage much as a whole.

@Hayley, I like your PvP gear only, and the days of Audacity armor only indeed made balance suggestions and viewpoints more consolidated. However, many classes rely too heavily off of current set-bonuses to be relevant for it to be a realistic suggestion. I think our best bet would be to attach decent set bonuses to new Audacity sets.

It seems to me that a basic choice should be made. Either nerf the stealth classes dps, or nerf their stealth. If you nerf their dps, then they would become weaker classes, that can win because they get to pick their battles, and flee when things aren't going their way. I suppose that would be okay, but get two of you together, and your dps problem is fixed. So then they can pick their battles, and out dps their enemy with a little help. It's actually even worse than that, but I don't want to give anyone any ideas, so I'll keep that nugget to myself.

However if you go in the other direction, let them have high burst damage, but make the stealth less reliable, then I think what you'd end up with is a class known for their crits, but also a class that is taking a gamble when they try to use their stealth to get an advantage. Then a group using stealth will have a harder time sneaking up on someone, or escaping (as a group) than an individual stealth character.

Also, if stealth (rather than crits) was nerfed, then the landscape could come into effect again. Using stealth to attack someone inside an enemy keep might become a bad idea vs using stealth to attack someone in the middle of a field. To me it just makes sense that it should be easier to win a fight against an individual you sneaked up on in a field vs one you sneaked up on in the middle of their keep.

Personally I'd much rather have stealth nerfed rather than crits/dps. However, I think what you have now is a situation that is so long standing, that too many people have decided to take advantage of it. So now you have too much resistance from people who don't want anyone rocking the boat. More than likely, you'll see that resistance to me simply offering an opinion on the subject.