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Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Hermann

And while we're using isolated examples, it wasn't a left-wing terrorist that killed an MP 2 years ago.

I think this is the key point.

The Mail and Express may not be physically getting in the faces of MPs but headlines such as "enemy of the people" are about as intimidating as you can get and irresponsible in the extreme, particularly given the murder of Jo Cox.

No MP should be subject to intimidation or threats of violence but the political climate we all operate within has been created by the pathetic right wing press and the idiots of the extreme left and Momentum.

Neither side is good and both are bad for democracy and pure human decency.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Hermann

Yes, we've all read the headlines. But if you actually read the full report you'll find that, as always, the headline doesn't tell the full story. Once you factor in the different numbers of responses from either main party, the increased participation in social media of Labour supporters and the fact that the Conservatives are the party in government, the picture is not so clear.

And while we're using isolated examples, it wasn't a left-wing terrorist that killed an MP 2 years ago.

I'll also point out that the report concludes that Diane Abbott suffers the most abuse out of any MP and that BME women MPs suffer proportionately far more abuse than white ones.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Bittners a Legend

I think this is the key point.

The Mail and Express may not be physically getting in the faces of MPs but headlines such as "enemy of the people" are about as intimidating as you can get and irresponsible in the extreme, particularly given the murder of Jo Cox.

No MP should be subject to intimidation or threats of violence but the political climate we all operate within has been created by the pathetic right wing press and the idiots of the extreme left and Momentum.

Neither side is good and both are bad for democracy and pure human decency.

Yes, it's also worth noting that the report on abuse of candidates suggests that the increase in abuse is partly down to the general atmosphere of political debate in this country, which in turn is partly created by a hostile press.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Hermann

Yes, we've all read the headlines. But if you actually read the full report you'll find that, as always, the headline doesn't tell the full story. Once you factor in the different numbers of responses from either main party, the increased participation in social media of Labour supporters and the fact that the Conservatives are the party in government, the picture is not so clear.

And while we're using isolated examples, it wasn't a left-wing terrorist that killed an MP 2 years ago.

He wasn't a Tory either. He was just a nutter. The extreme right and extreme left are pretty much one and the same, and I happily condemn all equally if and when they cross the line.

I'm referring to the mainstream and the abuse dished out by Labour supporters to Conservatives and vice versa. The rise of the sainted Jeremy and particularly his trusty sidekick the Shadow Chancellor (who is repeatedly on record calling for "direct action" and violence towards Conservatives) has brought into the mainstream an acceptance that Conservatives (and indeed Labour supporters who don't support St Jeremy) are there to be abused, something which previously existed but mainly in the shadows. This has also at times brought out the worst the other side, I'll concede, but being out there on the campaign trail and speaking to seasoned campaigners frequently I'm alarmed at some of the stuff they have been put through.

Social media is a key factor I agree - witness the BBC sacking a gardening presenter this week for his disgraceful tweet towards Zac Goldsmith.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by IndoMike

Jason,

You deflected the debate by suddenly introducing the topic of physical aggression at political meetings and falsely claiming that only the left cause such trouble, which you cannot prove at all. As I said recently, there is a small minority of yobbos on both sides. Even Michael Heseltine once behaved like a yobbo in parliament.
To be honest, manipulation of the truth and denying facts. Worryingly elitist, right wing behavior seems to have crossed the Atlantic and penetrated some of the Conservative party.

Actually you'll find, if you look back to p257, that it was Hermann who made the original assertion that political abuse was mainly from the right - I merely countered this. I NEVER said that "only the left cause trouble", as you are often wont to do you make an assertion without actually fact checking. Read back what I wrote. And you chuck in an accusation of "Worryingly elitist, right wing behaviour" right out of left field.

I appreciate that as a Conservative (small and big c) I'm ploughing something of a lone furrow here where there is a pack mentality just waiting to seize on anything I say, but I do implore you to at least get your facts right before levelling accusations at me.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Jason H

Actually you'll find, if you look back to p257, that it was Hermann who made the original assertion that political abuse was mainly from the right - I merely countered this. I NEVER said that "only the left cause trouble", as you are often wont to do you make an assertion without actually fact checking. Read back what I wrote. And you chuck in an accusation of "Worryingly elitist, right wing behaviour" right out of left field.

I appreciate that as a Conservative (small and big c) I'm ploughing something of a lone furrow here where there is a pack mentality just waiting to seize on anything I say, but I do implore you to at least get your facts right before levelling accusations at me.

In the interest of ongoing corrections I said the right-wing press, not the right-wing in general. I feel that the intimidation and abuse in the press is much more dangerous than that of some shouty people in the street or on twitter. I think much of the hate-crime in this country is at least partially down to the press and it is worth noting that in the abuse report only 2% of respondents indicated they had been physically attacked. The vast majority of abuse is on social media, which, while hurtful, is not as bad as minorities are facing. Sticks and stone etc.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Hermann

In the interest of ongoing corrections I said the right-wing press, not the right-wing in general. I feel that the intimidation and abuse in the press is much more dangerous than that of some shouty people in the street or on twitter. I think much of the hate-crime in this country is at least partially down to the press and it is worth noting that in the abuse report only 2% of respondents indicated they had been physically attacked. The vast majority of abuse is on social media, which, while hurtful, is not as bad as minorities are facing. Sticks and stone etc.

OK, fair enough re: the distinction in terms of the press.

On your last point, yes, a lot (the majority) is on social media. I would hazard a guess that this is where a lot of the complaints from Abbott in particular stem from that have led to her being the "most abused" - I have seen plenty that has crossed the line between criticising / mocking her competence (and attitudes) - fair game IMO, to criticising / mocking her appearance - definitely not fair game and simply should not happen. As I'm not on Twitter and don't tend to follow political figures on Facebook I haven't seen what is directed specifically at her rather only seen BTL comments on other social media pages.

However, most Conservative campaigners I have spoken to have witnessed / been subject to actual intimidation on the campaign trail - while none I've spoken to have been physically attacked, many have feared for their safety at some point.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by Jason H

Actually you'll find, if you look back to p257, that it was Hermann who made the original assertion that political abuse was mainly from the right - I merely countered this. I NEVER said that "only the left cause trouble", as you are often wont to do you make an assertion without actually fact checking. Read back what I wrote. And you chuck in an accusation of "Worryingly elitist, right wing behaviour" right out of left field.

I appreciate that as a Conservative (small and big c) I'm ploughing something of a lone furrow here where there is a pack mentality just waiting to seize on anything I say, but I do implore you to at least get your facts right before levelling accusations at me.

I had to take a painkiller for a bad tooth while I was responding in my last post and my wife was hassling me to eat up my food, so I didn't express myself well due to interruptions and lost my flow. You might notice that my penultimate sentence was not even a grammatically complete sentence. When mentioning elitist right wing behavior I was referring specifically to Rees-Mogg :it really does worry me that he could become PM in theory. You seem to be very sensitive about the term "right wing" : it's not an accusation, it's a classification, and doesn't mean the same as extremist or far right wing. However, Rees-Mogg is right wing and elitist. Please cease this habit of saying that I'm making accusations : I haven't accused you of anything.

Re: General Election - 8thJune

Originally Posted by IndoMike

I had to take a painkiller for a bad tooth while I was responding in my last post and my wife was hassling me to eat up my food, so I didn't express myself well due to interruptions and lost my flow. You might notice that my penultimate sentence was not even a grammatically complete sentence. When mentioning elitist right wing behavior I was referring specifically to Rees-Mogg :it really does worry me that he could become PM in theory. You seem to be very sensitive about the term "right wing" : it's not an accusation, it's a classification, and doesn't mean the same as extremist or far right wing. However, Rees-Mogg is right wing and elitist. Please cease this habit of saying that I'm making accusations : I haven't accused you of anything.

Accusation 1: That it was I who deflected by "suddenly introducing the topic of physical aggression at political meetings". The topic of the Rees-Mogg / UWE incident had been brought up in preceding posts.

Accusation 2: That I falsely claimed that only the left cause such trouble. I did no such thing, indeed quite the opposite, I merely offered a counter-point to Hermann's assertion which I considered inaccurate (rather than false). It is my stated belief (backed up by evidence both written and hearsay) that Conservative figures are subjected to more abuse than Labour figures - but most certainly NOT that abuse is entirely the preserve of the left.

I am quite sensitive to the term "right wing" as, rightly or wrongly, it has been used as a tool to denigrate with links made to Fascism.