April 23, 2008

I really, really, really want to believe that this is not the start of a new trend. Even with the updates and modifications, it’s quite scary. I see nothing like this – nothing even remotely close – here in Beijing. I hope it stays that way. If not, China’s whole coming-out party is in jeopardy.

The Discussion: 179 Comments

1 By Bill

I don’t think the party is any any jeopardy at all. I suspect it is progressing as planned. The support for the Chinese government is unprecedented now with these incidents. No one is talking about inflation, corruption, pollution, etc. any more. Why change anything when it is working wonderfully.

That’s all from the Chinese perspective, Bill. Stories like this threaten to rain on China’s parade in the Western world. And China wants it to be a global coming-out party, not just for a domestic audience.

The sky isn’t falling. No one is looking to lynch caucasians. But caucasians waving the Tibet independence flag should definitely beware.

Thanks for the link to the HK video AC. Good coverage. Glad to hear the “rational boycott” message is taking hold. But then again… it was a Tuesday. Wait until the weekend + May 1st holiday to see how popular sentiment really looks.

“In the wake of China’s clampdown on Tibetan protests in March, Western governments are under pressure from the public and the news media to use the Olympic Games to extract concessions from Beijing on human rights and Tibet. ”

Don’t restore order yet. I have been mad in America ever since torch relay in France. Let Chinamen rough some frenchmen up because they were terrible not just to the girl in wheelchair, but also other Chinese there.

Actually foreigners just move in to pay the average person a couple cents an hour while corrupt CCP officials and the people in bed with them make millions. Then everyone else is saddled with the pollution while the foreigner-loving CCP buys overpriced European luxury goods.

LOL, don’t confuse cause (yin) and effect (guo). I watched the Youtube videos of the half-Tibetan Canadian woman who heads Students for a Free Tibet, when she traveled to Beijing last summer. The vast majority of people, including probably the police, in Beijing had zero clue what the snow lion flag represented.

When’s the last time you learned enough Chinese to try to talk to average Chinese about the Tibet issue? When’s the last time, before late March, that the Dalai Lama issued a statement for the Chinese community? When’s the last time that overseas Tibet activist groups tried to engage overseas Chinese groups in discussion? The Dalai Lama is a regular face on Western networks; when’s the last time that he spoke to the overseas Chinese press? Have you ever looked at what passes for the Dalai Lama’s website in Chinese? It’s minimally updated, basically a literal translation of the English base (with emphasis on independence and Chinese invasion), and worst of all, still in fantizi for god’s sake.

The “Free Tibet” movement has never cared about Chinese opinion, has never tried to appeal to Chinese support. The Dalai Lama made a tactical decision in the late ’80s to make this an “international issue”, in hopes that international pressure would force China to cave in eventually.

The entire “Free Tibet” movement for the last 20 years has been predicated on the theory that by hurting the Chinese where they were vulnerable (they’ve been trying boycotts for years), they could achieve their political cause.

They’ve achieved their tactical goals. They’ve gained popular support in the West, and they’ve managed to hurt Chinese on several vulnerable points. And in reaction, this just means they’ve made enemies of 1.3 billion Chinese.

So, don’t come complaining to me now that there’s such open hostility amongst the Chinese public for the Snow Lion flag; the Free Tibet activists are the ones that drove this campaign, and this is what they wanted in the first place.

Jeez…yeah they really would be happy for China to be an island to itself.

One thing that really gripes me is the sense of victimization and the actual rabid sensitivity that mainland chinese have about their place in the world–when its ideology is threaten or its illusion of its place in the world or its indignant responses.

Along with the tantrums on websites and chat rooms, after a while, I’ve reached the disturbing revelation that xenophobia is hidden under a thin veneer here.

What’s going to happen this summer? If this is an omen of things to come, I don’t want to stick around with my white face or money.

That is good news! Now all those men who follow the tourists around selling those mao watches, fake rolexes, beijing 2008 ball caps, fake montblanc pens, postcards, guidebooks, etc etc etc can now trade them for natural resorts and will no longer harrass tourists from the US.

We have problems aplenty but are still the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world, all by ourselves.

No offense but..

Isn’t it so nice Americans killed everyone who lived there to take it? America could open up a bunch of factories being run by illegals being paid $1 an hour too, and meanwhile take back all the pollution they’re dumping in China to stop deflating America’s huge worldwide pollution output.

America is so fucked up that it’s unbelievable. It’s probably the only country as fucked up as China, but China is improving.. America just gets worse.

As matter of fact, I am coming to Beijing in August. Can’t miss out on all the fun!

Meanwhile I will continue to surf the waves of OC, gotta build endurance to handle … well about anything.

I already drastically cut down my spending. I bicycle to get grocery. Looking to get a buggy to attach to the back of my bike so I could carry my surfboard.

But I am going to use my Beijing trip to explore options to permanently move to China or at least in nearby Asian locale, provided I can find some clean beach, warm ocean water and good waves.
My expense will go down and as long as I have reliable internet access, I can still manage my portfolio.

Hopefully departure of peeps like Hung Lo will mean that rent will be cheaper, Yay!

I think Shenzhen’s a great, great place. It’s close to Hong Kong, and is one of the more “open” places in China. It’s also one of China’s few true migrant cities, meaning Shenzhen (like the US) is younger, and far more educated… and very important to me, most likely to speak putonghua. Someone mentioned to me Shenzhen, on average, reads 10x the national average. Shenzhen is relatively clean (compared to China, not the rest of the world)… streets are drivable, houses are still affordable (1/3rd the cost of Beijing + Shanghai), business opportunities are plenty no matter if you’re into technology or manufacturing. There are numerous parks, and they’re all free.

The eastern coast of Shenzhen also happens to have some very nice beaches and harbors.

But, guess what? This information is blocked in China. The cyber nanny takes care of the Internet and radio stations are jammed. You get caught with non-approved material in Chinese when you cross the border into China, you’re in trouble.

At least be honest and admit that this discussion is not possible in China, especially not in Chinese.

But, guess what? This information is blocked in China. The cyber nanny takes care of the Internet and radio stations are jammed. You get caught with non-approved material in Chinese when you cross the border into China, you’re in trouble.

At least be honest and admit that this discussion is not possible in China, especially not in Chinese.

getting a real job would be nice. i imagine they must truly appreciate the fenqing protests and how much the fenqing care and are helping them. why don’t they sell things to the fenqing during the protests. buying a fake rolex could become symbolic and a meaningful gesture like the heart China movement on msn.

LOL. I am reminded of the Orquesta La Palabra’s new Cha Cha song “I’m Going to Shenzhen”. Everytime I goes to my dance studio, my Salsa instructor would play this song for me. It’s much more hilarious when it has the Chinese song track.

Voice of Tibet? Looking at their website, looks like Radio Free Asia or Voice of America… in other words, propaganda arm no different than CCTV9. How many Westerners have been “reached” by CCTV9, would you say?

I didn’t suggest that the Dalai Lama could hope for an interview session on CCTV, or even Hunan TV. But the “Chinese nation” is a big, big place with a variety of different spaces for discussion, many of which are outside of Communist Party control; look at what’s happened world wide over the past 3 weeks.

Why hasn’t the Dalai Lama spoken with Phoenix TV, or any number of TV stations in Hong Kong? (All of which are picked up throughout Guangdong.) How many interviews has he done with shijie ribao or other Chinese media overseas? For every time “Voice of Tibet” broadcasts in Mandarin, how often does the Tibetan + activist groups make its point in English?

Language is only part of this. I pointed out the traditional Chinese aspect only as a symbol of the lack of interest in Chinese support. A bigger part of this is crafting a message that’s acceptable to the mainland Chinese. Tibet government-in-exile propaganda about genocide and forced migration immediately sounds like bullshit to the vast majority of *moderate* Chinese.

Many average Chinese for example may not know that Tibetan monks are forced to attend political sessions where the Dalai Lama is condemned, or that the regional government in Lhasa doesn’t emphasis Tibetan, or that there are many brothels in Lhasa… so absolutely, if the Dalai Lama were to talk about points like this, many average Chinese would respond to it.

But when the Dalai Lama and exile propaganda talks about Tibetans dying “every day”, talks about genocide, etc, etc… that’s bullshit, and we know it. If the Dalai Lama’s representative were to come on Lu Yu’s show (Chinese Oprah Winfrey on Phoenix TV) and talk about “genocide”, he would be laughed off the stage. This is all propaganda custom designed for the Western world, and we the Chinese know it.

This last week is the first time I remember *any* mainland Chinese mentioning they’ve had a chance to speak with the Dalai Lama (a few Chinese who had gone out there to protest him in Minnesota had a chance to meet with him). And frankly, the Dalai Lama wasn’t remotely convincing… he talked about monasteries being destroyed in the cultural revolution, etc, etc.

So, again, the bottom line remains the same. The Free Tibet campaign is designed to boost international “pressure”, and it’s completely set itself up as an enemy of the Chinese *people*.

Wow, see you might actually be able to do something useful for the average chinese person.

thousands of fenqing using french flags for toilet paper in the streets.

thousands of fenqing burning french flags in the streets.

yeah that would be good for business. the smoke from the burning flags would not be noticeable, with all the smog already there.

I am sure the gongan would be okay with all those fires also.

I have a short attention span here. Why are we buring french flags again?

anyway it doen’t matter. but you know it would be better for business if you would buy a nice chairmao watch and a PRC flag, now that would be good for business, a patriotic gesture, and something that even foreigners could participate in.

Now wouldn’t that be a better symbol for China, not fenqing, but happy people wearing chairman mao watches and happily waving a red flag of the PRC. That’s good for business and you college students would be making yourself useful too!

I think many people may find it weird of the existence of the huge gap or disconnect, between Chinese who are climbing over other Chinese to get a chance to learn english or to talk to foreigners and the crazy nationalists calling for an absurd boycott. The conclusion that many reach is that one of the traits most be a thin veneer while the other is the “real” voice of Chinese. However, if we think of China like any other country, I do not see the reason to not believe that both traits can exist. The CCP may try to control the opinions of its people, but it remains impossible to maintain any sort of complete control. If we did try to see which sort of thinking is dominant, just count the number of Chinese learning English and compare. Or for many expats, think of your daily interactions with your Chinese friends and acquaintances. I doubt among them you’d think that xenophobia is overwhelming vis-a-vis their eagerness to talk to you.

I think basketball is a better East-West link then salsa. Whether you are a young American or Chinese chances are you like the NBA. On another note, anyone saw the first PHX-SA game? Wow, who’d thunk it, a Duncan three.

CCT I meant that the CCP attempts to control opinion but it is rather impossible for them to completely do so. and you are right many of them might be the same. I certainly never thought of it that way much. But I was just trying to mention that their is a plurality of opinions in China like in any other society. In any case however, boycotts of the type like the Carrefour one has a history of being loud yet ineffective for any extended period of time.

Greetings. I have enjoyed reading your comments in response to Richard Spencer in the Telegraph website. I just discovered this blog and it’s nice to see you active here as well. I often find that you are describing almost precisely my thoughts and views, but done in a more elegant way than I could have. 🙂

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For everyone else,

greetings as well. This is my first post here. Please excuse me if I am pointing to something already known here.

I ran across this article published in the 1999 Atlantic Monthly by Peter Hessler.

I’m pleasantly surprised you saw my posts on the Spencer blog. Frankly, in all honesty, after March I personally lost a lot of hope in the Western press… or I would’ve been much more active. I’m slowly getting back into the mood of talking instead of just pouting.

I’m not *that* active here. I tend to come and go in waves depending on real world schedule! But look forward to hearing your voice too. Hessler’s article is a great read.

“Isn’t it so nice Americans killed everyone who lived there to take it? America could open up a bunch of factories being run by illegals being paid $1 an hour too, and meanwhile take back all the pollution they’re dumping in China to stop deflating America’s huge worldwide pollution output.”

“Americans” – that would include you, Ferin, because you are American, aren’t you?

“America is so fucked up that it’s unbelievable. It’s probably the only country as fucked up as China, but China is improving.. America just gets worse.”

I didn’t think it would come to this, but this time I think it’s my turn to call you naive. DL has made a number of gestures to “Greater China”, but the PRC government has done it best to make him unacceptable.

Voice of Tibet a branch of the US government? As far as I know it is not, but if you think that is the case, the burden of proof is on you. As far as I know, VOT has strong links with Dharamsala, where the exile government operates under severe constraints. And VOT’s broadcasts are jammed by the PRC, apparently against international law.

Why hasn’t the Dalai Lama spoken with Phoenix TV, or any number of TV stations in Hong Kong?

Well, I don’t follow DL that closely, but I don’t think it is a secret that Hong Kong media is more careful who they give publicity since 1997. Not even Apple Computers dare to use DL in adverts that are only seen in HK.

…and yes, DL has actually tried to reach out to the Greater Chinese world, if you only care to look. 2001 he visited Taiwan and met with a number of Taiwanese leaders, including Lien Chan.

I guess that is not good enough, but nothing is good enough for Beijing. The problem is, that the people who are in charge of the PRC’s Tibet policies are party-hacks, not the kind of sensible people that there are a lot of in China. If a new generation of people were allowed to take charge of PRC’s Tibet policy that may change, but right now, most people in China with a nuanced view of the Tibetan issue keep a low profile and keep their mouths shut.

Indeed, he made a religious trip to Taiwan under the Chen Shui-bian administration… what exactly does this have to do with the political question in Tibet? Did he in any way try to tackle the question of how he felt about the ROC’s on-going claims to Tibet? Why didn’t he?

Hong Kong legislators aren’t afraid to meet with Chen Shui-bian, and to testify in front of the US Congress… but they’re too afraid to meet with the Dalai Lama? Not realistic.

As far as people with a “nuanced view of the Tibetan issue” keeping their mouths shut… I think you have to admit this is wishful thinking on your part. And as China does eventually transition into democracy, how will this tiny minority with a “nuanced” view force its position onto the vast majority of Chinese with a more direct view?

I have already tried to demonstrate that DL and other Tibetan groups are trying to make their voices heard in greater China, but I knew it wouldn’t be good enough.

By the way, I took a look at the article you praised. At some point, the author bluntly states that Tibetan culture and religion are backward (louhou), and that “China” hasn’t done enough to improve Tibet. That is exactly the kind of colonial attitudes that provoke knee-jerk responses in China, mutatis mutandis.

DL does not engage the Chinese audience because he knows his demands make the conversation a non-starter. Please go to http://dalailama.com/page.121.htm to see the details of what he wants.

The key points are copied and pasted below (i.e. all the quoted text are his own words):

“The establishment of a peace zone in Tibet would require withdrawal of Chinese troops and military installations from the country”.

“For the Tibetans to survive as a people, it is imperative that the population transfer is stopped and Chinese settlers return to China”.

And only then, “negotiations on the future status of Tibet and the relationship between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples should be started in earnest”.

Please note when he says “Tibet”, he is referring to “Tibet, including the eastern provinces of Kham and Amdo”. These refer to other surrounding provinces of XiZhang that were under Tibetan influence at some historical point.

In other words, his claim of Tibet accounts for 1/3 of China’s land and include many millions of han, hui, and other races of Chinese residents that have called these places homes for centuries. DL is demanding all non native Tibetans residents as well as the military to move out this region.

Tibetans do have legitimate claim to self-determination as all people do. Too bad their aspiration run smack into hard geopolitical reality that China will not give up control on such strategic asset.

It’s natural that Tibetan government in exile seek out help from the West as they did during 1950s. For the CIA, they are a convenient bargaining chip in dealing with Chinese, a thorn on side of China’s underbelly.

But ever since Mao’s army swept into power, China has only grown stronger, economically and militarily. As long as China is strong, even with the West’s help, Dalai Lama cannot expect to take back Tibet.

Chinese government policy in Tibet still leave much to be desired, that’s the fundamental reason for the disturbances. CIA/NED and Tibetan exile groups just added the fuel to the flame.

Of course Chinese government would tried to shift blame entirely unto the West and Tibetan government in exile rather than public acknowledge policy shortcoming; just as American government blame “foreign fighters” and Iranian/Syrian support in Iraq; just as most government usually do under the circumstances, that is to lie and to point fingers.

I personally do not see any good options for Dalai Lama and Tibetan government in exile. Even if they are to come to negotiation table, they hold a very weak hand, universal Western sympathy, notwithstanding.

Many Tibetan supporter tend to overestimate the power of West to enforce change on China. In fact, the leverage that West has on China is lessening everyday as the current global power shift is transfering wealth and power from the West to East.

Soviet Union collapsed because it was operating under a deeply flawed economic system. In the end, the Russian people lost interest (at least temporarily) in keeping the empire together.

As most of you could see, the nationalist ideology is still very much alive in China today. Will it change over time, perhaps. Nothing is permanent. China will not forever be strong either.

Will Dalai Lama or any of you live long enough to see the day where a weakened or perhaps disinterested China disengage from Tibet willingly? I doubt it.

Anyway, that’s why I am trying to surf everyday (except today and yesterday) that I am gonna outlast all of my detractors.

I remember the a comment from my real estate agent well when my wife and I were hunting for a house five years ago:

The whole point of negotiating is to go through give and take to find a price acceptable to both sides. However, the surest way to kill a deal is to go in with a clearly low ball offer. The seller would get angry and see it as evidence of a lack of good faith. Nothing goes from there.

I, and highly likely most of the Chinese, call DL’s demands a low ball offer.

Many foreigners have a romanticized view of China as “enchanting”, which may be related to Chinese females.

“My reminiscence: For such a lovely river, its name was mystifying—‘Cape Fear’—and the only thing to fear on those enchanted Summer nights was that the magic would end. And REALITY would come crashing in.”

The most uncivilized thing about Chinese people is licking foreigner’s anus

Recently there has been many attacks against the Chinese people, according to this thread, the poster suggested that because of recent events in Tibet, foreigners in China are in danger of being murdered by Chinese.

So, how about the the American people? After Hurricane Katrina, how was the the behavior of the people of New Orleans, compared to the united efforts and mutual-help that the Chinese people gave each other during the great flood of 1998, the New Orleans peoples’ behavior looked almost like animals. Now, of course you may say, “Math! Why do you choose to look at only New Orleans’ people! Most of them are poor people and blacks! Not a fair comparison!” Ok, then let’s look at George Bush. Did Bush not lie about the WMD in Iraq? Even if millions of people in China cheat and swindle, the damage is not even comparable to what George Bush has done to the world by his cheating and swindling. And the American people elected George Bush two times, clearly the American people agree with his cheating and swindling as well.

when your student visa expires we can arrange to provide you a box of brand new chairman mao watches and some PRC flags at a discount and we will see how well you do on the Bund or in Tiananmen or where ever you end up.

The Beijing games is a failure before it has commenced. The Games will be forever tarnished by all the nastiness that eminates whenever China is involved. They should never have been given the Games in the first place.

No single country or leader has the right to “give” Olympic Games to any country.

It was a rather democratic vote by IOC members which included many African and Latin American nations.

Sure IOC is corrupt, in fact that’s how Sydney won the right to host the Game in 2000. Despite vigorous lobby effort by UK and US against China’s right to host the 2000 Game, it came down to a very close vote. Sydney was of course able to bribe 4 African members of IOC to finally swing the vote in their favor.

When it was time to vote for 2008 Games, IOC members voted overwhelming for China.

International Community doesn’t mean the ‘West’ as much as some like to think.

My limited experience with African immigrants in United States seem to inform me that China is quite popular to Africa despite what you might read in papers.

Have you seen the Tanzania leg of the torch relay?

The nastiness come most unsurprisingly from the West. It will be noted and remembered by the Chinese people. We do have long memories.

Hi, I know the subject of indoctrination is like an open sore for some people, but, I find it to be a pretty important discussion topic. Its better to get it out in the open so as to rise above and beyond it…

“My limited experience with African immigrants in United States seem to inform me that China is quite popular to Africa despite what you might read in papers.”

Not be so sure. China is also increasingly been perceived as a new form of colonial power in Africa.

Just recently. The ship now waiting in front of South Africa with a cargo of weapons to Zimbabwe comes to my mind.

The need for resources drives CH to look for the countries with have been singled out by EU or US due to corruption and authoritarian practices. Some Africans see CH as supporter of oppressive regimes, and at the same time taking their natural resources like former colonial powers.

Some in EU see also CH actions go against efforts to improve good governance in African countries, which prevents to solve the poverty problem with drives so many Africans as illegal migration to EU.

See a report about Sudan recently. The are quite happy to get CH money and infrastructure project, but they would jump in no time to make business with EU or US if they are given the opportunity. Not much trust with CH either, for each infrastructure industrial project with CH, they hire German engineers to supervise the work and verify the work thoroughly before paying back with natural and energy resources.

I think CH is acting too short term and blindly driven for is need of access to natural resources to fuel its economy.
There is also an additional problem with the overcapacity production from CH. These countries can not compete now with CH and have been driven out of the market, letting people there with little or no options.

There is a growing thought there: they take our jobs, they take our natural resources, and what they will leave behind in the end.

Thanks for the link to the Atlantic Monthly essay. I agree that it is fairly nuanced and fair.

Unfortunately, it also displays the common misinterpretation of the history:

“In the Qing view, Tibet was a part of China …”

This is a myth that the Chinese government is happy to perpetuate.

The Qing NEVER saw Tibet as part of “China”, but rather as one more component of what the historian James Hevia calls the “Qing Imperium”, ruled by the Qing Imperial House but separate from the other components of the Imperium, such as Han China, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and Manchuria.

For instance, the Qing administrators at Lhasa and the small contingent of Qing troops based there were always Manchurian, NOT Han Chinese.

From this perspective, Tibet is no more historically part of China than Hungary is historically part of Austria just because both were once incorporated into the Hapsburg Empire.

From Europe CH just takes jobs, not natural resources at, at least significantly.

Unless if you consider IP property (specially technology) as a natural resource…. Sometimes when CH engineers/researcher visit a technology center in EU(US) you can hear that sucking noise….. 😉

Can not say I would not do the same if I were in CH position….. He he.

There is also something positive in this, some technologies blue prints instead accumulating dust here in EU could be better realized in CH due to 1)more needed there 2)Cheaper to develop (and produce) there 3)CH Need to find new technology markets not already occupied by west

Would not mind to send some un/under-developed technologies to CH.
I hear than Siemens would like to get rid of the Maglev(transrapaid) project and send it all to CH. More than happy to get rid of that unsellable (for them) technology in exchange for some big projects in CH.

Now. I CH succeed to make that technology fit for commercial operation, that would be a blast.
(I consider Shanghai Transrapid just a showcase)

That’s exactly kind of sentiment you get from reading Western Main Stream Media reporting on China’s role in Africa. When I mention my LIMITED experience with African immigrants in United States, I mean exactly that.

So when China imports coal, bauxite, natural gas and iron ore from Australia, are we “taking” resources from Australians?

When China imports copper from Chile and Peru, soy beans and iron ore from Brazil and Argentina, are we “exploiting” Latin Americans?

When China imports iron ore form India, are we “taking” Indian resource.

Often these reports are filed by reporter with little understanding of free market economics, much less the history of the place they are reporting on.

Of course there will losers as will as winners in any economic transition. What makes these Western reporters think that Africans can’t negotiate a good deal for themselves in dealing with the Chinese?

From this perspective, Tibet is no more historically part of China than Hungary is historically part of Austria just because both were once incorporated into the Hapsburg Empire.

Just curious… should Richard the Lionheart be considered an English king? For that matter, should Queen Victoria or Elizabeth be considered an English or British Queen? Last time I checked, they are all French-speaking foreign invaders from Normandy.

I’ll be fair with you. If Richard the Lionheart wasn’t English, then the Manchu administrator in Lhasa wasn’t Chinese.

To do the same or worst?
But my point is not raise again another case of “tu quoque” here.

Could current policies provoke a backlash for CH in Africa and prevent it from access to natural resources need to drive its economy?
If CH finds restrictions to gain access to natural resources which tensions may arise inside and outside the country?
Is the perception of CH policy in Africa correct?

“Just curious… should Richard the Lionheart be considered an English king? For that matter, should Queen Victoria or Elizabeth be considered an English or British Queen? Last time I checked, they are all French-speaking foreign invaders from Normandy.”

Absurd analogy. Richard the Lionheart (part-Saxon too, by the way) never said that “England” should be incorporated into “France”, or was part of “France”, or that the “English” were “French”.

And yes, possession is 90% in terms of law, but I was merely pointing out an historical fallacy. After all it’s the Chinese government that continues to legitimise its control over Tibet through highly dubious and anachronistic historical claims.

@cao meng de
Calm down Cao. I do not have a problem with CH buying at “market prices” the resources they need. Sure many countries are quite happy to find a new market for their resources in CH. (Also happy for those who had invested in that kind of resources…;-)

The question is when CH can get a “better price” by taken resources from some questionable countries and do not contribute, or prevents, a better political development and economic development on those countries, will it be positive in the long term for CH? Will it be just a “run a take all you can while it last”?

Yes Yes yes, we did our things too. But go not be like CCT and tell me again “You too blah blah blah..” That is not the point here, and if you use that argument with an African to justify your actions…..

Cao Meng De, let me put in the simple terms that even a purblind and not overly bright Chinese nationalist liker you will understand:

“China has no legitimate claim to Tibet on historical grounds. Ergo, the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights that gives minority peoples the right to self-determination should be enforced and the Tibetan people given the right to determine their own destiny.

Simpler terms still? The Han Chinese in Tibet should fuck off home to their own country.

By the way, Richard as well as various descendents took an active effort in terms of integrating England/France under their rule… they just happened to fail.

Richard happened to be a French-speaking, Norman nobility who ruled over England. The Qing emperors happened to be Manchu nobility who ruled over China. I refuse to accept that China can only be defined as a Han nation, as I assume many in Engand would be rather disturbed to find out that only Saxons could be considered truly English.

CCT — Read Benedict Anderson’s seminal work in the field of national identity — Imagined Communities — and you might be able to grasp the difference between dynastic politics and the post-Enlightenment nation state.

The author writes: “Ignorance in the United States is not just bliss, it’s widespread. A recent survey of teenagers by the education advocacy group Common Core found that a quarter could not identify Adolf Hitler, a third did not know that the Bill of Rights guaranteed freedom of speech and religion, and fewer than half knew that the Civil War took place between 1850 and 1900.”

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to have a meaningful discussion with anyone due to the ignorance and mind domination. It’s not just China; It’s a woldwide problem. I’m afraid that we’re seeing the rise of a global, capitalism totalitarianism.

Chinese government’s duty is toward Chinese people. It has no business “contribute, or prevents, a better political development and economic development” in other countries. That’s other countries’ business.

Did Sudanese elect Chinese government? Nigerian? Chadian? Well then, what legitimacy does Chinese government have in trying to force certain way of governance on African people.

Before you take the cheap shot and say Chinese didn’t elect Chinese government either. Exactly!
Chinese government then have less business interfering in other countries’ affairs.

An unelected foreign government trying to force changes in the way a country is governed? That’s what I would call Neo-Colonialism!

When the West wax eloquently about “contribute, or prevents, a better political development and economic development ON those countries” what they are really saying is “Africans can’t be trusted to govern themselves, they are like little children that needs to guided under the loving hands of white people”.

Condemning China’s non-Intervention policy and call it Neo-Colonialism, this gotta be the height of hypocrisy. Frankly it makes me sick!

Ah, I see, you’re one of those faux intellectuals who only use facts and logic when convenient, but resort to grade-school rants otherwise.

I look forward to the eventual disintegration of the United Kingdom into its constituent parts. If after 50-100 years the former citizens of the United Kingdom still enjoy their lot in life, I think China will have much to consider when it comes to Tibet and Taiwan.

“Ergo, the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights that gives minority peoples the right to self-determination should be enforced and the Tibetan people given the right to determine their own destiny.

Simpler terms still? The Han Chinese in Tibet should fuck off home to their own country.”

Really? You are going to enforce it?

Go ahead, be my guest.

Do you also plan to end your sojourn in HK and fuck off home to your own country as well?

@ecodelta
“Both. Perception of ones country abroad have always consequences. Did you see the torch relay lately?”

So there will be few crazies like HKsojourner trying to disturb the torch relay. Boohoo.

Was the cause of Tibetan Independence further by short term media attention? What did the Tibetan Supporters achieve besides short term media attention?

What they manage to accomplish is to alert the Chinese public. When peeps like HKsojourner show up in Tiananmen square with a flag of snow lions, they will be lucky if PSB boys get to them first before they are being pummel silly by crowds of fengqing.

@cao meng de
The very actions CH take do have an intended action in the countries where they are applied.
Preventing political evolution and change in government policies which the people in those countries want, by supporting a corrupt government is also an intervention.

The “no intervention” argument is just an excuse to cover CH real intention. Access to cheap or, on other countries already blocked, needed resources.

And that is neo-colonoalism. But the question here is not about moral issues, but about present and future consequences.

I asked a Chinese friend to read the bulletin-board comments quoted at the end of the Shanghaiist article. She said that according to what the bulletin-boards say, the American guy shouted “Fuck you!” at the Chinese crowd, and they only started attacking him after being verbally abused.

No idea how reliable that is, but it would explain a few things, wouldn’t it?

It will be the perfect cover for PLA to launch biologically warfare against big noses by introducing new strands of nastier STDs, special Olympic souvenirs to take back to their country to spread among the rest of big nose population.

“I call all Chinese ‘wives’ of anti-Chinese spammers whores. Just like their whore husbands, who lick CCP dick for a buck and then whine about it on the internet.”

This is the kind of comment Ferin is well known for. Still, the administrators choose to ignore him or even defend him with phrases like “Sometimes, he writes very good comments.” Are they all men? Don’t they see how insulting Ferin’s comments are to women in general and to Chinese women married to “evil laowai” in particular? I guess they just don’t care. Have the administrators of this blog ever wondered why no real Chinese people (apart from fenqing living in the evil US of A) are commenting here? Because they get slandered, cursed and abused by stupid American trolls like Ferin!

ferin, I have mentioned to Richard that he needs to review your comments. But I’ll go ahead and ask you myself: is it necessary for you to launch personal attacks and resort to abusive language to make your point?

ferin, as stated…I have not read this whole thread, so I have not read the comments you quote. Telling people to fuck off is not acceptable.

The difference here is that you are calling out individual people who are posting on this blog and using insults to address them. And you’ve commented so much more often than the two you mention that it’s much easier for me to find your remarks than theirs. On the thread above you belittled Cathy personally, and that’s just what I saw glancing at the end of the thread.

So I am going to ask, once more: will everyone please dial down the insults? I honestly don’t want to play Net Nanny here. I am at work, I am really busy, and presumably you are all adults.

1. I want to apologize to Richard, Lisa and the other administrators for my unfair criticism earlier. After re-reading it, I realized I’ve gone too far there. I’m sorry.
2. I want to make clear that I never said that all Chinese are Nazis, as Ferin is claiming. What I said was: a lot of Chinese people admire Adolf Hitler as a great man. And I stand by that.
3. I don’t think we should treat each other with kids’ gloves. This is about debate, after all. I don’t care, if others call me “idiot” or “liar”. I don’t mind if some commenters tell me to learn how to read or to f#ck off, because they think I’m still in China. I speak my mind here, so I take the heat. Comments like this:

For a long time I have viewed your reasoned comments here and perhaps we can meet in BJ with Richard and others who write here including Chinese nationalists for chats and dialog. It might be interesting and fun.

Ferin sometimes claims to be American, sometimes Canadian and at other times he calls the Republic of China his home country. One thing is for sure, he doesn’t know the least bit about life in China and tries to make up for his ignorance by calling other commenters all kinds of names and even insulting their spouses. He’s most likely some spoiled high school kid suffering Yellow Fever.

About

A peculiar hybrid of personal journal, dilettantish punditry, pseudo-philosophy and much more, from an Accidental Expat who has made his way from Hong Kong to Beijing to Taipei and finally back to Beijing for reasons that are still not entirely clear to him…