In post 1560, Gamma Emerald wrote:So other than Eager, Maria and implosion, who believed there could be 2 town ascetics?

LUV

Thank you, that leads into my plan for today. I think the scum team spread out amongst the three wagons/opinions. And I still feel implosion is town, so I'm going toVOTE: LUV

...

Seriously, go read the game. LUV was on Shadow_step because he thought Shadow was fake claiming. He did *not* believe there could be two ascetics, SS is wrong.Ugh, w/e. I have some latent suspicion of LUV so I don't really care that much about derailing a train on him, but at least vote for smart reasons and not trivially falsifiable ones.

@Prism - You were after implosion yesterday. His tunnel timing me seems less than a coincidence,

I'm curious what you mean by this; it seems like it could mean pretty much anything. My best guess is that you mean to say that I brought up a wagon on you as a counterwagon to eagerSnake? And it sounds like you're trying to imply that that was a scummy thing to do? Which I find deeply confusing. So I'd like some clarification.

I'd also like some clarification on how you (seemingly, I may be misinterpreting things here) are simultaneously criticizing me for tunneling you on d1 and for not having strong reads on d1.

You're the one that's terrible my friend. The only case you have on Eager is that you cannot fathom that both you and him were given the same role. You either refuse or won't take into consideration a town motive for lying. If Eager had not claimed, your read on him would be null. You have no backup plan if he flips town and if he flips scum, it's an excuse to push on anyone who defended him or didn't vote for him.

If he thinks I'm scum, I would obviously not consider Eager to be town. Why the hell would I? He then says that Eager could be lying town. Implying he knows eager I town. Lying as town is very risky. Not just in that game. But you can get blacklisted.LUV treats me as if I am town here.

Take this with a grain of salt because there's definitely a grain or two in there from my current mood: generally, shadow's reasoning for me being scum feels to me like it amounts to "I wasn't right yesterday, so no townie can POSSIBLY have been right yesterday."

which is, once again, projecting his feelings that eager was necessary to lynch at some point on to the whole game... I honestly would have loved to take both of them to endgame. I mentioned eager as one of my strongest townreads and fought his wagon for as long as it seemed like it would have any chance of actually doing anything for a reason. And it's honestly insulting for shadow to imply that there would be a point where we would "have to pl eager." I just on-principle disagree with that sentiment.

It's just absolutely infuriating to be called scum for having been correct about eagerSnake by the person who caused his lynch, won't admit that they caused his lynch, and is now continuing on to day two without even a tiny shred of humility or any indication that he's re-evaluating his view of the game in light of his by far strongest scumread flipping town. And yet he's still probably town.

In post 1581, Shadow_step wrote:Okay so we are in day 4 lylo, with both Eager and I alive. Who do you lynch ?

eager and you and... me i assume and... who else? d4 lylo would (assuming 1 kill per night) have 5 people. The answer to this entirely depends on what happens between now and then and who those other people are, although it seems like it would be moot since you were never even willing to consider the hint of a possibility that eager would be town, so if you were both town here my vote wouldn't matter

If you're making the argument that bringing you both as town to LYLO loses us the game because you'll auto-vote eager, then1) you're missing the fucking point of YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD EAGER 100% AS SCUM.2) that rests on shaky logic to begin with because we would have had one extra lynch opportunity that wasn't on eager before then, and so we'd be less likely to be in a bad situation in the first place.

In post 1580, implosion wrote:Take this with a grain of salt because there's definitely a grain or two in there from my current mood: generally, shadow's reasoning for me being scum feels to me like it amounts to "I wasn't right yesterday, so no townie can POSSIBLY have been right yesterday."

which is, once again, projecting his feelings that eager was necessary to lynch at some point on to the whole game... I honestly would have loved to take both of them to endgame. I mentioned eager as one of my strongest townreads and fought his wagon for as long as it seemed like it would have any chance of actually doing anything for a reason. And it's honestly insulting for shadow to imply that there would be a point where we would "have to pl eager." I just on-principle disagree with that sentiment.

It's just absolutely infuriating to be called scum for having been correct about eagerSnake by the person who caused his lynch, won't admit that they caused his lynch, and is now continuing on to day two without even a tiny shred of humility or any indication that he's re-evaluating his view of the game in light of his by far strongest scumread flipping town. And yet he's still probably town.

Which is just infuriating.

This is not what I was thinking. Scum believe claims more readily than town because they know that town generally don't have any motivation to lie.Your reason to believe that we both were town ascetics was some what far fetched.

Scum believe claims more readily than town because they know that town generally don't have any motivation to lie.

They also believe them less readily because lynching a townie who is claiming their role is a perfectly valid way to get a mislynch... scum don't actually believe or disbelieve claims, they simply choose which to portray, and there are good reasons for scum to portray either belief or disbelief of a true claim, which are basically the same as their reasons to portray belief or disbelief of any player in the game.

Your reason to believe that we both were town ascetics was some what far fetched.

It really wasn't. As far as I can tell, you're still viewing the game through rose-tinted glasses. You still think eager was obvious scum, and you aren't looking at my reasons for thinking he was town through an objective lens, you're looking at them through the bias that eager was obvious scum, so it's unlikely that a townie could have been right on him.

What about maria's reasons? Were they far-fetched? What about eager's reasons? If yes then your argument loses a leg because we suddenly have multiple examples where town can have reasons for thinking eager was town that you view as far-fetched; if no then it loses an arm because there were good reasons to think that eager was town (although you can still view my reasons as far-fetched, though at that point I'd simply disagree).

Okay, now that I have a bit more time, I want to expand on something I was talking about at the end of the day yesterday with Maria. Basically, the lynch train was 'too easy'. In the presence of an easy town lynch, I want to go back and look at the players who 'did work' to suss out alignments and understand the situation, and who coasted.

Spoiler: buckets

So, in short - People that did work up until the end:PrismGammaEmeraldShadow_stepDierfirenn30Zoronos

People that were lazy:LUVPenguinBoringGrendel

???????:Implosion

That's what drove my suspicion list earlier (with the exception of Dierfire) - Basically, the people that either went 'welp guess lynching this' or sat out entirely are more likely to be scum, imoTo go over that list:Boring - Her posting was mostly defensive, we went over this in detail yesterday about why he read flipped. She didn't seem to do any work to suss out which of Eager and SS were the correct lynch, she just followed her top read SS to turn on her second to top read. I was in the middle of inquisiting this a bit when the hammer came down, but there we are.PenguinPower - He put his vote on Eager quite promptly after the claim, then did nothing to try and figure out which side was telling the truth. He responded to some questions about himself (his secondary read being Gamma) and otherwise reiterated over and over to lynch Snake. Of particular note - I don't feel Penguin can be scum with either Grendel or Boring.Grendel - Primarily he was afk but his posting before he left was largely off topic. He kept promising to look into Boring but that never materialized. So we'll see what he does with that today. I'm giving him a bit of a break since I assume he's not lying about IRL obligations in order to dodge mafia / excuse lurking.

The other two players here specifically that weren't explicitly on my earlier lists are Implosion and LUV.LUV - In short, LUV's posting at the end of the day was nonsense. He posted a bit about SS, but frankly most of it was crazy. But he at least was kinda trying to prosecute a case on SS, so he gets some semblance of respect for that, however misguided I feel he was.Implosion - He wasn't on the Eagersnake wagon. He engaged with Boring, Prism, SS. With Boring and Prism, but he primarily was prosecuting a case on either of those players; he was responding to them going after him. However, for SS he was primarily trying to argue SS out of the tunnel on Eager. This is a key part of my conflicted opinion on Implosion. I don't think scum Implosion would spend so many words arguing with SS, trying to convince him that there is a possibility of a town Eager. However, he doesn't spend a lot of time actually prosecuting his scum read on Boring (that's where his vote was), so I can see a world where he is simply wasting time on purpose with SS.

So, that's where my head is. I feel like I should re-read and rethink on Prism, but I was thinking towny at the end of the day yesterday so I keep shuffling that to low priority work.

Shadow: He is town to me because he as scum wouldn’t benefit from a 1 for 1 trade off would be bad for scum. I figure it is more likely that there would be two aesthetics’ then shadow being scum. I think i said this before though.

Deirfire: I had read some of his prevous games before this one started, and this game largely reflects Town!Deir. I read two Scum!Deir games: DankMeme, and Symphonic metal mafia. Both of which Deir was lurking scum, having and keeping a low profile. The town games i read were two newbie’s he SE/IC’d for, and a mini normal that i don’t think had a name(numerical). In those Deirfire, while not being a especially prolific poster did keep on top of things and left dense posts when he could throughout the games. This game has been very reflective of Town!Deir, especially once nearing EoD yesterday.

NN30: His effort D1 and approach to the game resonates town to me. His case, and interest in boring is good and i think he has some valid points on her. I think that his suspicion on Shadow is justifiable as town, and more importantly not a something he’d push as scum yesterday. If nn30 were scum he most likely stick to eager, because imo Eager was an easy lynch to bite onto. Through the day he has been showing a consistent effort to figure things out and solve the game. I don’t know his experience outside of this site, but it would be very hard for an unseasoned scum to be so ontop of things that have been happening. He as scum would have had many opportunities to back off the game and let town fight each other, but he didn’t do that. Believe it or not I also thought times he has referred to himself as Ob!town were rather town like. I guess this a bit of a gut read. Its just that effort he is putting into the game smells like town.

Prism: His desire to get attention yesterday when he felt like nobody was listening to him looked like very anti-mafia behavior, most scum would be happy being sidelined. Therefore i think it is more likely Prism is town -just for that-. I also think he may be onto something with Implosion. It also appears that he was the originator of the Implosion saying thoughtful, but empty things from the sidelines while also targeting easy marks opinion. At the very least I don’t see his push on Implosion being scum motivated.

Pre-edit: I am? How so? I think it could be anybody who isn't a town read currently. If I was pressed this second I'd start with LUV just because there is less research needed then Implosion, or boring. But that would be the easy route, and the esay route in't always the right one. Also, Implosion and boring aren't a likely scum team, and I'd like to figure which of the two are scum first before I mess with that.

Partially I'm annoyed at your reliance on meta, but at the moment I don't think anyone was actively casing any of those players other than Dier, so taking the time to town-case them is not a great use of :words:

@Shadow - I think you and I need to shake hands, apologize to one another, and try to work together. If you're town we'll never be able to focus on scum if we spend the whole day yelling at each other.