I'm not Jim (obviously) but IMO, it's up in the air if the features are an upgrade for you. You can look at a few things:

E61 Group - This may be worth the upgrade alone. It really does make for a great shot. Larger Boiler - 1.8 vs. 1.3 L. Looks - The Livia is a great machine, but looks a bit dated. Price - I've looked, and you're not going to find another E61 HX machine for anywhere close to this price. The next closest is going to be the QM Anita for about 500.00 more.

Having had the machine for about 2 weeks now, I can honestly say I'm in love. I'm not pulling a God Shot, but the ones I am pulling are very, very good. A big step up from my Breville 840.

For all the minor quibbles you hear about with this machine, you can always come back to the price. Once you realize what you're actually getting for the money, IMO, it's a no brainer.

if i didn't have a decent machine and wanted to spend about a grand, the cuadra would be at the top of my list. except for the fact that i am cheap, and would likely buy used, like i bought my livia 90. :>) it cost me <$500 shipped, and then, the seller refunded me the retail $275 it would have cost for me to replace the outside casing which received a bit of cosmetic damage due to his poor packaging. (which brings up an o.t. gripe of mine - why do sellers of stuff not know how to pack? before i got the livia, i bought an old expobar office that was simply sent back because it was totally destroyed by poor packaging - and i had provided the seller with *detailed* instructions on how i wanted it packed and why. even if the shipping monkeys handle everything w/kid gloves, the conveyor machines used by ups/fedex/etc, are *guaranteed* to drop your goods *at least* 6'. rigid foam insulation, bubble wrap, planty of clearance, double boxing, and and NO LOOSE "peanuts", except to fill voids! ok, end of rant...)

re: looks, i love the looks of the cuadra, but i still love the looks of my livia, and i have had it for 3 years. it's a tank, works well, is easy to work on, parts are readily awailable, and it makes good shots. (yes, i have had to replace some parts on it - i am sure mine is one of the earliest machines made, and is >10 years old.)

it seems to me that if i truly want to get something significantly better, i should be looking at dual boiler machines. i have seen an open-box quickmill qm67 for $1500; either this, or a used dual boiler machine in this price range would seem to make more sense for me. but... if there's a machine for $1k (or less used), that truly *is* a significant upgrade to the retail ~$1700 livia 90 i would be interested in hearing about it. basically, i asked this question in my first post to this thread, and no one has been able to offer up any info...

Upgrades have many different meanings to different perceptions and needs/wants by each owner. There are features to each machine that are important to each potential buyer. For example, the Cuadra has plastic side panels and the Livia has stainless. Some customers prefer the stainless in terms of durability, while others prefer the the insulation effect of plastic. In other words, it is int he eyes of the beholder.

In terms of taste, this one is questionable. I can pull a good shot on both, BUT just like a fine wine, one may not like the taste. Hence, it becomes very subjective.

By design, the Cuadra will give the user more control over the extraction with the lever on the side of the grouphead vs a push button/switch on the Livia. Some will prefer this control in search of the holy grail while others will prefer the convenience of a push button. So, it becomes difficult to talk about upgrades unless we know exactly what is desired. You can call or email to discuss. Again, you are welcome to visit when the time arises.

This leads me to believe it is the water. Put in straight tap for the next week and see if it goes away. If it does, then you will need to find the right balance of tap/filtered & softened. for example, start with 50/50 ratio and progress towards less tap.

Also, once done steaming, shut the steam valve as quickly as possible to prevent milk siphoning. Then once the pitcher is removed, open the valve to blow out some steam.

Upgrades have many different meanings to different perceptions and needs/wants by each owner. There are features to each machine that are important to each potential buyer. For example, the Cuadra has plastic side panels and the Livia has stainless. Some customers prefer the stainless in terms of durability, while others prefer the the insulation effect of plastic. In other words, it is int he eyes of the beholder.

In terms of taste, this one is questionable. I can pull a good shot on both, BUT just like a fine wine, one may not like the taste. Hence, it becomes very subjective.

By design, the Cuadra will give the user more control over the extraction with the lever on the side of the grouphead vs a push button/switch on the Livia. Some will prefer this control in search of the holy grail while others will prefer the convenience of a push button. So, it becomes difficult to talk about upgrades unless we know exactly what is desired. You can call or email to discuss. Again, you are welcome to visit when the time arises.

thanks for your comments. i simply want a good shot w/no fuss. as i suspected, it's six of one, or half a dozen of the other. and the 90 works for me. from what i have read, having a double-boiler machine increases the frequency and quality of good shots for those not searching for the holy grail, but simply wanting no-fuss good shots; as the biggest wariable seems to be temperatures, and the double-boiler machines are the most temperature-consistent, eliminating the need for "temp-surfing", which, frankly, i will *never* bother with...

if i didn't have a decent machine and wanted to spend about a grand, the cuadra would be at the top of my list. except for the fact that i am cheap, and would likely buy used, like i bought my livia 90. :>) it cost me <$500 shipped, and then, the seller refunded me the retail $275 it would have cost for me to replace the outside casing which received a bit of cosmetic damage due to his poor packaging. (which brings up an o.t. gripe of mine - why do sellers of stuff not know how to pack? before i got the livia, i bought an old expobar office that was simply sent back because it was totally destroyed by poor packaging - and i had provided the seller with *detailed* instructions on how i wanted it packed and why. even if the shipping monkeys handle everything w/kid gloves, the conveyor machines used by ups/fedex/etc, are *guaranteed* to drop your goods *at least* 6'. rigid foam insulation, bubble wrap, planty of clearance, double boxing, and and NO LOOSE "peanuts", except to fill voids! ok, end of rant...)

Unfortunately, many people think that the common carriers provide white-glove door-to-door service. This is why

a) we physically inspect every machine prior to shipping,b) we always add extra internal packaging and double box every machine we ship, andc) we insure all machines (and just because there is insurance does not mean it is automatically covered).

Then, for any eligible returns, we explicitly state in our RMAs that all packaging needs to be used. There have been cases where customers wrap their machines in paper. There have been cases where the accessories were just placed in with the machine and not secured, thus causing all types of dents and damage (which of course is not paid for by the common carrier insurance).

This is one reason why I really do not like shopping for used delicate stuff that needs to be shipped.

thanks for your comments. i simply want a good shot w/no fuss. as i suspected, it's six of one, or half a dozen of the other. and the 90 works for me. from what i have read, having a double-boiler machine increases the frequency and quality of good shots for those not searching for the holy grail, but simply wanting no-fuss good shots; as the biggest wariable seems to be temperatures, and the double-boiler machines are the most temperature-consistent, eliminating the need for "temp-surfing", which, frankly, i will *never* bother with...

I installed Eric thermometer last night and think I may have a temp issue with my machine. Would like to compaere with some other owners to see if there is indeed a problem.

From everything I've seen, both in here, on HB, and Youtube, this machine is a dragon. Most people that have Eric's adapter installed, from what I've seen, seem to idle at the Group anywhere between 210-215 F. Mine, for some reason, is MUCH lower.

After installing the adapter last night, I turned on the machine, tested for leaks (none) and let it heat up. After an hour or so, I found that my group temp with at 206 F. Would go no higher. I then did some flushes, and the machine seemed to rebound decently to about 202 F. I then went to bed, leaving the machine on, expecting the temp to creep up higher over the night. When I awoke this morning, I found my group temp had dropped dramatically, to 192.6 F. This is with the PStat set deadband from 1.1 - .95 BAR. I did a warm up flush, and the temp hit about 199, but then dropped back down fairly quickly to around 188. I let it warm up a bit longer again, and got the temp to about 198 F. Pulled the shot, and the temp again dropped down to around 195.5 F and went a bit lower after the pull.

From everything I've seen and read, this is quite the contrary to what this machine "should" be doing. I'm wondering if there may be something amiss. I've just now upped my Pstat deadband from 1.2 -1.05 and I'm letting the machine sit to see if it will warm up a bit, but since I've made the change, my temp has gone from 202F down to 199.4 F, so this is the opposite of what should be happening, correct?

Just so I can reference, could any of you monitoring your group temp let me know what you idle at and at what boiler pressure?

I installed Eric thermometer last night and think I may have a temp issue with my machine. Would like to compaere with some other owners to see if there is indeed a problem.

From everything I've seen, both in here, on HB, and Youtube, this machine is a dragon. Most people that have Eric's adapter installed, from what I've seen, seem to idle at the Group anywhere between 210-215 F. Mine, for some reason, is MUCH lower.

After installing the adapter last night, I turned on the machine, tested for leaks (none) and let it heat up. After an hour or so, I found that my group temp with at 206 F. Would go no higher. I then did some flushes, and the machine seemed to rebound decently to about 202 F. I then went to bed, leaving the machine on, expecting the temp to creep up higher over the night. When I awoke this morning, I found my group temp had dropped dramatically, to 192.6 F. This is with the PStat set deadband from 1.1 - .95 BAR. I did a warm up flush, and the temp hit about 199, but then dropped back down fairly quickly to around 188. I let it warm up a bit longer again, and got the temp to about 198 F. Pulled the shot, and the temp again dropped down to around 195.5 F and went a bit lower after the pull.

From everything I've seen and read, this is quite the contrary to what this machine "should" be doing. I'm wondering if there may be something amiss. I've just now upped my Pstat deadband from 1.2 -1.05 and I'm letting the machine sit to see if it will warm up a bit, but since I've made the change, my temp has gone from 202F down to 199.4 F, so this is the opposite of what should be happening, correct?

Just so I can reference, could any of you monitoring your group temp let me know what you idle at and at what boiler pressure? Many thanks!

You may need to keep track of ambient temps and drafts... as a lower ambient temp or higher drafts will accelerate the heat dissipated from the grouphead. When I was testing double boiler machines about 3 years ago, I saw an impact on the grouphead from ambient temp differences as well as differences in drafts (air movement) within a room.

I also suggest descaling the grouphead. There can be limescale build up that may impede the thermosyphon flow.

You may need to keep track of ambient temps and drafts... as a lower ambient temp or higher drafts will accelerate the heat dissipated from the grouphead. When I was testing double boiler machines about 3 years ago, I saw an impact on the grouphead from ambient temp differences as well as differences in drafts (air movement) within a room.

I also suggest descaling the grouphead. There can be limescale build up that may impede the thermosyphon flow.

The machine is only two weeks old. Don't think there should be a limescale build up yet. As for ambient temps, the house is set around 72-74 F and no drafts in my kitchen, that I'm aware of at least.

However, I've been discussing things with EricS, and he and I both think that La Nuova may have added a thermosyphon restrictor to the machine in order to reduce the temp of the brew group to a more manageable temperature.

It looks like I was able to fix my issue by turning the boiler pressure up to 1.2 BAR. Moving that up a bit, I now get a steady 207-208 F at idle on the machine and my cooling flush only takes 4-5 oz to get to 200 F. I know they like to change things with no notification (boiler wrap) and I'm wondering if they added the nut from your site that I linked earlier in the thread. If this is the case, the machine seems to run much better this way. Steam pressure is fantastic and the temp stays right about where it should be.

I'm thinking what may have happened the night before was a thermosyphon stall. I didn't try it, but reading up on it, it's a simple matter of doing a small heating flush to bring the group back up to temp.

Either way, I pulled a pretty damn good shot this morning and am looking forward to see what I can do once I get the grind dialed in. :)

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