Hey Stu, I have one caller right now. The other 2 are very slightly smaller but I expect if they are males I should see calling in the next 2 months. No idea on sexual maturity. I've heard it takes a year for them to get settled in before breeding occurs though.

thedude wrote:Hey Stu, I have one caller right now. The other 2 are very slightly smaller but I expect if they are males I should see calling in the next 2 months. No idea on sexual maturity. I've heard it takes a year for them to get settled in before breeding occurs though.

Hey Adam,You had one frog bigger than the others,is this the one that is calling? or have the growth rates come into play since you got them? I'm lead to believe that these frogs are very difficult to sex as young,i'm looking to further my knowledge about this,

Stu&Shaz wrote:Hey Adam,You had one frog bigger than the others,is this the one that is calling? or have the growth rates come into play since you got them? I'm lead to believe that these frogs are very difficult to sex as young,i'm looking to further my knowledge about this,

much thanksregards

Stu

Ya one of them showed up quite a bit bigger than the other 2, but now they are catching up

I'm sexing them like I do pumilio. The others seem like females because they are staying down low and in broms (instead of up high and on logs), and they are only wrestling with each other and the male when I feed (instead of when calling or misting is happening). Hopefully I'll find out if I'm right in the next couple months.

interesting observations i hope it pans out as you think. Two girls and a boy if they'll co habit without to much surpression would be the stuff dreams are made of. your linking them to pumillio behaviour wise is that your gut feeling or do you have more than this to base this on,ie are you seeing more similar behaviours,or is reading leading you to this?thanks for the help Adam, I'm trying to get as much stuck in my think old skull as possible,it will help me one day, I'm already scheming as we did for ages before we got our first frogs,we have just bought in a couple of biggish neos,damn they hold a lot of water,i had never seen anything like them until very recently,Chris has put me off verisa for life bestStu

Well they act kind of like big pumilio, and several people told me that after I got them. They are some of the most interesting frogs to watch for sure. pumilio do well as 1.2 so I'm sure that will be good for them as well.

Ya if you look at the pictures of my tanks you can see some BIG broms in there. One of them is gigantic. Holds like 10 oz. per axil. I still don't get the verisea thing, I have never had any problems with them and I've used them in pumilio tanks and Ranitomeya tanks. I've got 2 in the Paru tank.

... and they are only wrestling with each other and the male when I feed ...

What size viv have you got these in? I've never hear of females wrestling with both each other and a lone male in a decent sized viv. Certainly never witnessed it myself. If all three are wrestling it sounds more like you possibly have three males. I hope not, but I doubt you have them in a small viv...It's been my personal experience that only a male will bother other males (tiny young or other-wise, and they can REALLY bother them...) and the total times I have ever seen the slightest aggression with female on female obligates took all of about three to ten seconds and the times witnessed can be counted on a multi-digit amputee's hand.In the mean time, until you have these absolutely sexed you may consider blowing the FFs into the viv so that they are well dispersed and keep fighting to a minimum.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

The tank is 75-80 gallons. In all my pumilio tanks I've seen females beat the hell out of my males but only during feeding time and that is the only time the Paru are fighting. That is one of the things I'm basing my guess off of. It is just as likely I have 3 males though. I should add a couple things though, one is I keep my pumilio in pairs in 26 gallon tanks. And two is my SMALLEST Paru is the one that started the fights originally. This was when it was only slightly larger than half the size of the biggest frog, and it still attacked and drove away the male.

Found my fifth bad clutch yesterday, this time the film can had two different clusters so I'm hoping that both females have started laying.. It's getting a little frustrating seeing all these bad eggs but at least they are working on things eh? I think they are pretty close to their full size now as they seem to have stopped growing, I'm betting the bad eggs are due to the fact they are still a bit young to be baby makin! patience is a virtue!

I've been offered a free pair of like patterned /colored Parus from a friend to attempt to breed them and see if they throw colors and patterns all over the board or breed true. I'd really like to see pics of offspring from others who chose to breed like to like. I do hope the ones in different pens were kept and bred as like to like as possible, other-wise results could be skewed.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

Tuckinrim8 wrote:Found my fifth bad clutch yesterday, this time the film can had two different clusters so I'm hoping that both females have started laying.. It's getting a little frustrating seeing all these bad eggs but at least they are working on things eh? I think they are pretty close to their full size now as they seem to have stopped growing, I'm betting the bad eggs are due to the fact they are still a bit young to be baby makin! patience is a virtue!

Rich I'm confused, haven't you always been an advocate of not labeling a population based on color/pattern but strictly by gps location? Mark Pepper has told us the color spectrum is variable throughout the population, so breeding like to like seems like selective breeding to me.. Thoughts..

Tuckinrim8 wrote:Rich I'm confused, haven't you always been an advocate of not labeling a population based on color/pattern but strictly by gps location? Mark Pepper has told us the color spectrum is variable throughout the population, so breeding like to like seems like selective breeding to me.. Thoughts..

Chris, two things.One is that I have addressed these thoughts in the thread already and I am not going to spin and spin and spin wheels yet again.And Two, Mark wrote in this very thread that it was OK to either mix or breed like to like. At least he said he was going to do both himself. I don't get the logic that both can possibly be correct, especially if someone knows exactly how they are breeding in the wild, but this is what he has written...

MPepper wrote:... What will I do with my Paru frogs – I will do three things, I will group up some like with like, and some unlike with unlike – and I will see what happens...kind regards to all, mark

I think most all involved with these frogs understands the simple fact that one single generation of like to like is going to do nothing adverse . And all also know that when you mix, you can not UN-mix...

Once again, once we have all posted pictures of parents and offspring it will be pretty easy to tell if like to like are producing like or if they are indeed the first and only dart population known to be this extremely polymorphic. Either way, it will take some time for enough results. But I know that if my theories are proven wrong I can always, always introduce un-like phenotypes later.

If those of us who breed like to like always get like offspring then that is pretty convincing evidence. If we get all over the rainbow it is not as convincing (because we have no info on how these were placed together as original breeders) but a least we would hope to see offspring which look at least very much like pics we have seen of adult wild breeders. If we see offspring which continually or even often look 'muddy' , as Dr. Summers has written is a result of mixing pumilio locales, then those mixing phenotypes may also need to take a look again at adjusting husbandry.

One thing is for sure, time will tell.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

There was also talk of genetic testing because of the lack of scientific understanding of why these frogs were so polymorphic. I'd really like to see results of those tests. Any scientist know how long it would take to run such tests and publish results? If they were proven genetically to be the first greatly polymorphic population of darts it would be head-line making...

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

... and they are only wrestling with each other and the male when I feed ...

What size viv have you got these in? I've never hear of females wrestling with both each other and a lone male in a decent sized viv. Certainly never witnessed it myself. If all three are wrestling it sounds more like you possibly have three males. I hope not, but I doubt you have them in a small viv...It's been my personal experience that only a male will bother other males (tiny young or other-wise, and they can REALLY bother them...) and the total times I have ever seen the slightest aggression with female on female obligates took all of about three to ten seconds and the times witnessed can be counted on a multi-digit amputee's hand.In the mean time, until you have these absolutely sexed you may consider blowing the FFs into the viv so that they are well dispersed and keep fighting to a minimum.

Adam, with the recent loss of a few of the Parus, to help cut down on aggression and stress, and to help sexing for others, what was the sexing outcome of this tank?Thanks,Rich

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.