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Thanks for the reply. I'm having problems with any search terms I use. I've gone through 4-5 pages after most attempts with lots of discussions but nothing like you are referring to.

Could you please give a link to the FAQ you are talking about. Maybe I've been searching the wrong place?

Sorry to waste your time, but really did spend about 30 minutes using various search terms and didn't find what I was looking for.

I found lots of stuff on how things should change, lots of stuff on why things are stupid etc. Maybe I should have read more of the threads -- but they all turned into arguments rather than health discussions on the subject.

Savin

“[I]It will never work, change always makes things worse, and Turbine doesn’t care about us anyway…[/I].” Eeyore
“[I]But maybe it will have honey or even something better[/I]!!” -- Pooh

I don't PvP, so my end game is a little more limited. There are other legacies, like Quick Shot slow in strength stance, that would probably be good for PvP.

If you are doing solo content, most of the legacies have their uses. The legacies that improve melee skills and healing will be much more useful if you are by yourself. Those are all useless in group content though. You shouldn't see much melee in group content and the heals just aren't enough to matter in those situations. I don't even put points into my melee LIs dps stats until all other legacies are maxed out.

Power cost is not needed with the changes to power pools.
Threat is not needed and even if it was I've tested the legacy extensively and it does so little it is irrelevant. Do not misunderstand me - not pulling agro is important but this legacy will not help you be a better hunter and that is what we are trying to achieve.

Focus and Induction bow criticals are essential.

It is your choice to choose how much barbed arrow you want, if you want heartseeker damage and then what bases you want (quick shot crit and stats).

Personally I couldn't live without the HS dmg legacy but I know many hunters that do.

As for the melee weapon you need needful haste, AOE targets, and precision magnitude - the rest is up to your taste again.

Well they're not useless but I like others much more. Plus finesse from other gear reduces mobs chance to bpe and I don't feel like it would be a good use of a legacy for me. I would consider others, if you're running out of ideas as to what's useful, grab a plus agi vit or fate to conpliment the ones suggested in others posts above.

Remember your Build

@OP

One thing you need to take into account, aside from the suggestions here, is that some of these legacies are not going to significantly improve or even impact your skills all that much if you aren't traited to maximize them. As in: no need to add Precision Stance Crit Mag or Needful Haste if you are always running in Strength and barely use the the Needful Haste skill - something I never do personally, but hey... there are plenty of successful red hunters out there.

Not using Arrow Storm and then adding Rain of Arrows crit multipliers or Max AoE targets is another example. If you are not using these skills on a regular basis in your rotation, then choose a legacy that is going to capitalize most on what you use most. Read your tool tips carefully and select accordingly.

Power cost is not needed with the changes to power pools.
Threat is not needed and even if it was I've tested the legacy extensively and it does so little it is irrelevant. Do not misunderstand me - not pulling agro is important but this legacy will not help you be a better hunter and that is what we are trying to achieve.

I've been testing this a lot since reading this post and I don't agree with you. While playing with the same tank, I can consistently do a few hundred more dps before pulling aggro. It may not matter with a t2c raid capable tank, but that isn't what most of us play with. Any other legacies that would improve damage are pointless. I already have to nerf my damage or I become the hunter tank. I'm not saying anyone should change their setup, just that these legacies do help.

I've been testing this a lot since reading this post and I don't agree with you. While playing with the same tank, I can consistently do a few hundred more dps before pulling aggro. It may not matter with a t2c raid capable tank, but that isn't what most of us play with. Any other legacies that would improve damage are pointless. I already have to nerf my damage or I become the hunter tank. I'm not saying anyone should change their setup, just that these legacies do help.

I've seen an analysis somewhere about these legacies that.came to the conclusion they amount to around 5% less threat, the OP went to an incredible amount of effort but testing was done exclusively on quick shot IIRC. As for how much 5% per legacy matters I guess thats for each of us to decide for ourselves. As I get more class golds and better relics I'm noticing I'm pulling aggro more often, so maybe it would be worth a shot.

I've seen an analysis somewhere about these legacies that.came to the conclusion they amount to around 5% less threat, the OP went to an incredible amount of effort but testing was done exclusively on quick shot IIRC. As for how much 5% per legacy matters I guess thats for each of us to decide for ourselves. As I get more class golds and better relics I'm noticing I'm pulling aggro more often, so maybe it would be worth a shot.

The amount of threat reduction in an overall rotation series is still bare to none if the hunter isn't adjusting both build choices and rotation sequence to the situation, and most importantly to the TANK's style. Above poster talks about self nerfing and doing "a few hundred more dps before pulling aggro," as if that is doing the job. It does not. A hunter's role is to do the highest amount of dmg possible and do so sustainably. Making sure to not be running in a raid full-on solo build like SS and all reds for example, helps avoid many aggro problem easily enough. But it is also just as important that there be a thorough understanding about how tanks build threat, watching that they have it established well, and what their rotations are to keep it going. Easiest thing to to is communicate with the tank you have about it if you are in doubt. Even in PuGs, I have found this works well. At 3k agility and maxed out relics, to which I have recently gotten, I still have not had aggro issues and happily no need for these legacies - there are far more useful ones you can spend your points on if you are playing your game to its fullest.

The amount of threat reduction in an overall rotation series is still bare to none if the hunter isn't adjusting both build choices and rotation sequence to the situation, and most importantly to the TANK's style. Above poster talks about self nerfing and doing "a few hundred more dps before pulling aggro," as if that is doing the job. It does not. A hunter's role is to do the highest amount of dmg possible and do so sustainably. Making sure to not be running in a raid full-on solo build like SS and all reds for example, helps avoid many aggro problem easily enough. But it is also just as important that there be a thorough understanding about how tanks build threat, watching that they have it established well, and what their rotations are to keep it going. Easiest thing to to is communicate with the tank you have about it if you are in doubt. Even in PuGs, I have found this works well. At 3k agility and maxed out relics, to which I have recently gotten, I still have not had aggro issues and happily no need for these legacies - there are far more useful ones you can spend your points on if you are playing your game to its fullest.

Can you explain what you are trying to say here? I don't get it.

You say a hunters job is to do as much dps as possible. You then say I'm doing it wrong when these legacies allow me to do more dps. That doesn't make sense. I have never used strength stance and I have a guard that I tank with in raids. I know exactly how threat works. It sounds to me like you just don't have good dps. I may just be missing your point though.

You say a hunters job is to do as much dps as possible. You then say I'm doing it wrong when these legacies allow me to do more dps. That doesn't make sense. I have never used strength stance and I have a guard that I tank with in raids. I know exactly how threat works. It sounds to me like you just don't have good dps. I may just be missing your point though.

Well, I was talking to the other poster about how using these legacies is not as important as learning timing and skill rotations since some folks even using these legacies still pull aggro - something you stated clearly in your post as happening in your case.

So my point is that a hunter's skill rotation is critical and so is its timing in order to keep damage as sustainable as possible, as hard hitting as possible, without pulling aggro.

I have seen some hunters assume that if they pull aggro from the tank that means they have the "best dps/hardest hitting dps," etc. It does not. All it means is that they are not managing their rotation and more importantly its timing with the tank's aggro, well enough to avoid the smooth execution of their best skills when they will be needed. It is also the quickest way to see those kinds of hunters not get invited back to any groups if they do it a lot.

Going all out crazy with the big skills is always possible - and fun - but at the very right moment and not before, or you will pull... whether you have these legacies or not. If you are deliberately dialing back on your damage as you say, using the legacies on top of it, and still pulling aggro, it is not the legacies that are causing the issue or that your dps is so "uber." I have seen hunters at 85 with 1200 agility still pull aggro in a PuG for not managing a rotation. Have I pulled on occasion? of course! what hunter has not while getting this down?

You can do a lot more damage in less time, when these elements are more coordinated. I am not, nor will I ever be the best hunter. There are many far better than me. So if you believe my saying this means I have poor dps - that is your choice. What I can say however is that this is one aspect of the class I have had years of practice with and know well. Disregard if you like.

Well, I was talking to the other poster about how using these legacies is not as important as learning timing and skill rotations since some folks even using these legacies still pull aggro - something you stated clearly in your post as happening in your case.

So my point is that a hunter's skill rotation is critical and so is its timing in order to keep damage as sustainable as possible, as hard hitting as possible, without pulling aggro.

I have seen some hunters assume that if they pull aggro from the tank that means they have the "best dps/hardest hitting dps," etc. It does not. All it means is that they are not managing their rotation and more importantly its timing with the tank's aggro, well enough to avoid the smooth execution of their best skills when they will be needed. It is also the quickest way to see those kinds of hunters not get invited back to any groups if they do it a lot.

Going all out crazy with the big skills is always possible - and fun - but at the very right moment and not before, or you will pull... whether you have these legacies or not. If you are deliberately dialing back on your damage as you say, using the legacies on top of it, and still pulling aggro, it is not the legacies that are causing the issue or that your dps is so "uber." I have seen hunters at 85 with 1200 agility still pull aggro in a PuG for not managing a rotation. Have I pulled on occasion? of course! what hunter has not while getting this down?

You can do a lot more damage in less time, when these elements are more coordinated. I am not, nor will I ever be the best hunter. There are many far better than me. So if you believe my saying this means I have poor dps - that is your choice. What I can say however is that this is one aspect of the class I have had years of practice with and know well. Disregard if you like.

I pull aggro with these legacies while testing limits, not while serious in raids. If you can't do that, you aren't good at dps. I also stated that I nerf my damage OR end up tanking with my hunter. It wasn't "and". Again, if you don't have to hold back, you don't know how to dps.

These legacies allow me to do more dps without pulling aggro. Now why wouldn't I want to use them?

I pull aggro with these legacies while testing limits, not while serious in raids. If you can't do that, you aren't good at dps. I also stated that I nerf my damage OR end up tanking with my hunter. It wasn't "and". Again, if you don't have to hold back, you don't know how to dps.

These legacies allow me to do more dps without pulling aggro. Now why wouldn't I want to use them?

Apparently, the notion of sustainability is lost here. Interesting... considering your statement read: "I can consistently do a few hundred more dps before pulling aggro." So by all means use the legacies, if that is buying you some seconds of respite. It doesn't change the fact however that the goal is to not pull - period. If you think that my being mindful of that means I “don’t know how to dps” go right ahead.

If by "holding back" you are implying waiting to "launch the nukes" - all hunters need to know they should be doing that anyway until it is appropriate. That is not self-nerfing - that is doing your job.If you do “serious raids” as you claim, then you must know dps (damage per second) on a hunter is all about sustaining as consistently as possible the highest amount of damage, not about BIG numbers with every single shot so the inevitable aggro pull happens, or spamming fast skills till focus is gone.

If you build fast, strong, consistent rotations to a crescendo of well-timed nukes then you are good to go and will always be much in demand. Many ppl complete dps parses on this and can even give you plenty graphs of how that looks over time if this is not clear to you. Bottom line is a hunter is worthless as dps IF he pulls aggro and unbalances that sequence, because it disrupts sustainability - cutting down your total dps - not to mention Fs-up everyone else's job to correct what should not have happened. Peace out.

Apparently, the notion of sustainability is lost here. Interesting... considering your statement read: "I can consistently do a few hundred more dps before pulling aggro." So by all means use the legacies, if that is buying you some seconds of respite. It doesn't change the fact however that the goal is to not pull - period. If you think that my being mindful of that means I “don’t know how to dps” go right ahead.

If by "holding back" you are implying waiting to "launch the nukes" - all hunters need to know they should be doing that anyway until it is appropriate. That is not self-nerfing - that is doing your job.If you do “serious raids” as you claim, then you must know dps (damage per second) on a hunter is all about sustaining as consistently as possible the highest amount of damage, not about BIG numbers with every single shot so the inevitable aggro pull happens, or spamming fast skills till focus is gone.

If you build fast, strong, consistent rotations to a crescendo of well-timed nukes then you are good to go and will always be much in demand. Many ppl complete dps parses on this and can even give you plenty graphs of how that looks over time if this is not clear to you. Bottom line is a hunter is worthless as dps IF he pulls aggro and unbalances that sequence, because it disrupts sustainability - cutting down your total dps - not to mention Fs-up everyone else's job to correct what should not have happened. Peace out.

Way to quote something and take it completely out of context, while completely missing the point. I know how to raid. I'm my kins raid leader.

While testing, I found that I could do more dps with these legacies. That is sustained dps, not pulling aggro 5 seconds into the fight. You can only test this by actually pulling aggro. There is no other way. I was testing the legacies... Even without the legacies part, you have to do these kinds of tests to know what your tanks can handle. If you aren't, there is no way you are maxing your dps. Why would you take the test situation and assume that is how I play? That doesn't make sense. I don't pull aggro in raids. Since you are having trouble with the concept of a few hundred more dps, I'll spell it out for you.

In BFE t1, starting on Vadok, I can do around 2,000 to 2,100 dps without these legacies. If I go over that total, I pull aggro. If I have these legacies, I can do around 2,300 to 2,400 dps without pulling aggro. If I start going over that, I start pulling aggro. I can only start going all out after the shields have changed, giving the tank a chance to establish a big aggro lead over me. Good wardens can also build aggro enough that I can do more dps later in fights.

It seems that you think you can only pull aggro at the start of fights. Again, I don't think you do enough dps to have these problems. You have to do bad dps or have tanks who are better geared than you. I very rarely get to play with tanks who are as well geared as my hunter. I have to watch my dps throughout the fight, not just early.

Way to quote something and take it completely out of context, while completely missing the point. I know how to raid. I'm my kins raid leader.

I didn't take anything out of context here. I merely re-posted your statement. It is clear from the statement that you said you are pulling with the legacies being used - your own words not mine. You being a raid leader or knowing how to raid has little bearing on the statement, or even the subject of the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the legacies - which is the point of the OPs question in this thread.

Originally Posted by Cirgellon

While testing, I found that I could do more dps with these legacies. That is sustained dps, not pulling aggro 5 seconds into the fight. You can only test this by actually pulling aggro. There is no other way. I was testing the legacies... Even without the legacies part, you have to do these kinds of tests to know what your tanks can handle. If you aren't, there is no way you are maxing your dps. Why would you take the test situation and assume that is how I play? That doesn't make sense. I don't pull aggro in raids. Since you are having trouble with the concept of a few hundred more dps, I'll spell it out for you.

You insist on the notion that to be doing dps well, you have to pull aggro. Nonsense. Whether it is at the beginning of the fight, the middle, or the end makes no difference - it should not happen. The only thing to control that is you and your ability to play with the situation at hand. If you are in tune with the tank and paying attention, you will not find yourself behind aggro pulls.

Originally Posted by Cirgellon

In BFE t1, starting on Vadok, I can do around 2,000 to 2,100 dps without these legacies. If I go over that total, I pull aggro. If I have these legacies, I can do around 2,300 to 2,400 dps without pulling aggro. If I start going over that, I start pulling aggro. I can only start going all out after the shields have changed, giving the tank a chance to establish a big aggro lead over me. Good wardens can also build aggro enough that I can do more dps later in fights.

It seems that you think you can only pull aggro at the start of fights. Again, I don't think you do enough dps to have these problems. You have to do bad dps or have tanks who are better geared than you. I very rarely get to play with tanks who are as well geared as my hunter. I have to watch my dps throughout the fight, not just early.

Where exactly are you getting this? lol I never said anyplace that pulling aggo at the beginning of the fight is the only time it can happen. I merely pointed out but one example of it happening which I have often seen. I also never said nor implied that you do it. You seem pretty touchy about this for someone who is supposedly so "expert" then. To note, you still have not addressed the fact that pulling aggro whether that be in the beginning, middle, or end, screws up your damage output and is something that hunters need to avoid. Aaaan again.... I never said I don't ever pull it. I said I don't have ISSUES with it because I am very capable of managing my rotation timing to maximize my damage. Since your only response to a differing point of view on this is that I must have bad dps, enjoy your "superiority" :P

What rotation do you use? I have a hunter with end game gear, the works, but i don't have a rotation, likely I just don't play it enough as my main is an LM, which is totally not a rotation-based class.

I can only think if a rotation when I am in Needful Haste. Sorry to derail... a gust of wind from another direction may help this thread

If you achieve this using threat legacies or not then whats the problem?

If you run with tanks enough you get a basic idea.of the dps threshold where your aggro excerds that of the tank.
On the other hand, a bad tank is a bad tank. Pulling aggro on endurance with threat book, threat legacies and stealthy shot traited doesnt meayour dps is godmode,means your tank might be the problem. Personally like dpsing on the edge so I know im at or very close to max potential dps for the given tank. Yea youll pull but you know that. after x amount of outgoingg damage %, you decidee if losing a few % damage is worth a few % of -threat.
After like 44k+ pm, whats 70 agil over threat redux?
I dont use threat legacies as I share the same point of view as yelk. But if it works for you, nobody can tell you otherwise. Ill stick to timing skill just right.

Apologies for terrible errors you noticed. Hard to type on mobile device >.>

Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.

Best gear for highest DPS depends not just on the hunter or the tank, but the raid. The burg has a skill to enhance the tanks Aggro, the champ can leech, pump and dump Aggro. How is the groups position, can the warden leech Aggro or is the hunter out of range.

With a good raid and some crit luck my champ had in BfE T1 speedruns a DPS of up to 3.7 k (3 burgs, bladebrother etc.) and the tank had the Aggro all the time, while in some Pug runs I pulled Aggro of the second troll.

In a perfect raid you shoud be able to go all out on DPS, but in most cases less Aggro is more DPS in the long run.