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Foreword: please read the entire post before commenting. I was a little bit too quick to post it, and as a result of adding ideas and thoughts to it, it's now a little hard to follow: I start with an example before explaining the main problem (inductive reasoning). All the important stuff is at the end.

Ever since WotLK ended, I've had the opinion that the problem of WoW PvP is not balance, but the systems. In fact, the things I'm going to talk about have always been in place, I just didn't notice them because I enjoyed random battlegrounds, skirmishes and 2v2 up until Cataclysm. I don't want to make this a nostalgia thread or a rant on bringing back skirmishes, but a few words have to be said about skirmish: reintroducing skirmish arenas, with the way the game has evolved since they were last active, would be a stupid decision. Back in WotLK individual skill was a much bigger factor than it is today - this is both due to developer decisions and players getting much better in these 4 years - arena is all about team synergy now, individual skill doesn't even fascinate anybody anymore. A single player just won't be able to make enough of a difference on his own to make it fun in the slightest, perhaps with the exception of one or two specs, and I'm not even going to talk about the obvious problem of team compositions and how predictable it will be. If they are reintroduced in the original implementation, people will play them for a short while, and then it will just be another dead area of the game.

Let's forget about the other PvP modes for now and focus only on arenas - it is a little game of its own, there's nothing that feels or plays quite like it, and it has a community of its own.

A huge problem with the arena system is that there is only one, ranked, mode. I believe it applies to everybody, or at least the vast majority, that you're not always in the mood to play serious, to play to win. And I believe every arena player has been in a situation where you wanted to try playing with some other people or your friends - just for fun - but couldn't due to being locked to their "serious" team. The real reason people want skirmishes back is because arena players simply don't have anything to do when they're not in the mood to play serious, or when their team mates are offline, or whatever other reasons not to play ranked. Ever noticed how many people buy Arena Pass just to be able to mess around without putting their live ratings in danger? it's always a very short sparkle of interest, because AP isn't really that good of a solution, but it's a good example of what people want.

And so, why not do the obvious thing, the thing that exists in several other super popular games?

Unranked mode.

Give it a a matchmaking system to match equal teams, but no ladder and no statistic tracking at all. No need for teams too, just let any party of 3 queue for it, even cross realm parties. Characters will still have MMR attached to them, and the average of that MMR will be used for the party - imagine it as if a temporary arena team is created. It just won't matter, it won't give rewards, it won't be displayed on the UI, the matchmaking system will extend its search range a lot quicker (aim for 2-3 min queues tops, even at the cost of equal matchups), and there will be no competition based around it. An organized skirmish, that's exactly what it should feel like.

Firstly, this will be a less serious environment to play in for the veterans, a polygon to run new teams or just play for fun, something you can queue any time of the day carelessly, something you don't have to commit to. And secondly, this would be a wonderful thing for new PvP players. It's just like the real thing, but without the pain of losing; I know people who tried arena, sucked due to being new, and never touched it again because they just kept losing. WoW arena has a very steep learning curve at least due to the amount of information you need to memorize and get used to before you really feel like you understand what's going on, being put straight into a competitive environment makes it that much harder; on top of that, gear is a much bigger factor than it's ever been, but let's discuss this another time.

Now, since I've touched the subject of new players... Let's go back to the real world where PvP isn't just arenas. The general consensus on AJ is "who cares about random BGs", but it is so much more important for the game overall than people think. Random BGs is the first place people unfamiliar with PvP go to, not only because of gear, but because it's the only type of PvP you can queue solo for. This is where they get their opinions about the PvP side of the game, and do you honestly think it's a good one if every second active poster here is botting, and some of you even actively support it? If I continue this subject I'll have to repeat myself a lot from an earlier thread about honor and battlegrounds, but key points were: the honor grind must be shortened A LOT, it's totally wrong that getting starter PvP gear takes so long; winning/losing shouldn't be as important as it is (random is random); and botting should be at least risky and more complex to use than it is today.

Another problem with the systems is how weird the matchmaking system is. Why do you sometimes not get a high rated team from your realm that you KNOW is queueing, and instead get 10 min queues into a team 700 rating below you? Why do you sometimes experience the opposite and get the same team 3-5 times in a row when you KNOW there's other teams queueing, and you even have to sit and wait for them to finish their game when they bump into somebody else? Why do battlegroups still exist even though it's been many years since it's possible for cross battlegroup matchups? all battlegroups do now is slow down queues for everybody and give out free rank 1 titles from 5v5 shares. Why does it take years to fix an exploit in the RBG MMR system, an exploit that people made thousands of euro on, and even humiliated Blizzard by making 5000 rated level 1 characters for the purpose of advertising? Why do RBGs have a much, much better effort:reward ratio in a game that's based entirely around character/gear progression? RBG is easier for the individual player and gives everything that arena does plus more (higher cap), that's wrong on so many levels. Imagine how all of this mess looks like to new players.

It is the oldest and ugliest system in the game by far, it's had so many things built on top of it and patched that it's just an archaic abomination.

There's so many great ideas out there. It doesn't even have to be unranked mode - that's just my take on it and an idea I haven't seen discussed before. Think about weekly challenges/tournaments with rewards - regular 100k gold tournaments would be intense. Introduce observing, at least in ghost mode like on a certain private server, but preferably more like the 5.2 Brawl (can keep it tournament-only). Introduce a best-of-3 mode for it, and allow it to be used in wargames.

Think about getting rid of end of season rewards completely. End of season rewards only promote cheating and boosting by now, and their value as an achievement of skill diminished to the point they're almost irrelevant. You could replace them with the aforementioned tournaments, or do other things like temporary per-season achievements that turn into FoS (f.ex. a new Arena Master per season, Flawless Victor, 2.2/2.4/2.7 per season). You know how fun it is for new players to get a RBG achievement every 100 rating they advance? Imagine if Arena had something similar, and you got Gladiator at say 2.5k, Duelist at 2.2, etc. And the seasons are really short so it doesn't get stale - you don't NEED TO introduce a new title and set of gear every single season.

Think about reintroducing 2v2 in some shape or form (f.ex. with a healing debuff, because right now healer/dps vs healer/dps is impossible), with rewards or achievements to it, especially something for the newer and less experienced players - 2v2 is actually one of the greatest and easiest ways to learn other classes as well as a great way to pass time when bored, it solves nearly every problem I mentioned here.

The way PvP works right now doesn't allow new players to enjoy the game. This is my entire point with this post. The biggest and most important reason that arena activity is dying is that old players are quitting, but no new players are picking up WoW PvP because it sucks to play with randoms and tank down to 1k rating on your first session. There is no "entry level" in WoW PvP, you're thrown straight into ranked 3v3 where you get crushed by people fully geared and most likely with years of experience because WoW PvP hasn't really attracted players for years. THIS is what needs fixing, and it's much more important than balance.

I'm not saying that balance is irrelevant, but no matter how good and balanced the game will be, it will never attract new players if the systems stay the way it is. There's a couple of very good changes in the patch - they fixed gear progression, which was the reason S12 had half the active teams compared to S11 (despite being a fresh expansion), and they also listened to our complaints about rating decay - we haven't even fully acknowledged how huge that change will be. Ultimately I'm making this thread in hopes to motivate them to work the PvP systems more, I imagine it's an easier task than balancing and is more useful at the same time.

Most of these won't even require too much developer work hours, and they won't affect PvE or other parts of the game. You can stick with temporary title rewards or gold and it'll be just fine for us, don't waste your precious developer time on tabards/mounts/pets. We just need a bit of your programmers work hours. Please make PvP fun again.

It's really easy to bash on someone when they fully put themselves out there for everyone to see. I've known Reckful for years, and he loves interacting with people. He's not acting on his stream, he's just being Byron. Regardless of what you think of how he played - I would choose no other person to play with. That includes you, Khuna. Reckful is one of the few players who truly understands what's going on and knows what needs to be done defensively to survive. Sure, he needs to work on some things on his Rogue. He knows. These are some of his only arena games on his Rogue throughout the expansion. He did exactly what was necessary to survive. Disappointing to see such negative feedback.

On another note: donations are a fine way to run his stream. People generally leave funny messages or ask questions. If you don't like his stream... don't watch. I think he does a great job entertaining his audience.

You play wow man. You cant exactly complain about people throwing money away. If those in the wow community (myself included) were smarter with money blizzard would not be in business.

I personally have never given money to a streamer nor will I ever. You need to realize though that some people smoke, drink, do drugs, some play wow, and some give money to streamers. Were all pathetic in our own way.

I am not sure if this is a serious post.How is paying 15 bucks for a computer game a vice? I can understand if someone is addicted to mounts, cards, statues whatever they sell in blizz store but I don't think that applies to the majority of the people in pvp community.

Also , I don't understand why people find it unimaginable that someone donates to a streamer. When you enjoy the meal, you tip the restaurant staff or when you enjoy the live music at a pub etc, you tip the performer, it's the same concept. It doesn't make you a fanboy moron that throws money away, it's just social etiquette; you have fun watching a stream, you support the streamer.
That said I don't find reckful's stream interesting, it's too much about donations and kinda dull but I subscribed to 1 channel and don't find it weird at all.

I think the frostbomb thing might be an overnerf, I mean come on, %50? Its like they don't even think about things when they nerf them, they just blow out a number from their asses.

It should have been more like "oh yeah we have tested frost bomb and its hitting too much right now its taking this much of someones hp for this much cast time, we have tried it out and found that on a full pvp geared character it should do this much damage in a shatter for it to be fair and worth casting", but its more like "Lets nerf frostbomb people are whining about it, how does %50 sound? Good, enough work for today, see you tomorrow."

just when you thought blizzard were gonna do something good, they always, and by always i mean FUCKING ALWAYS have to mess it up to do more damage then good. at least half of my friends that played 100% legit got their gear, team and conquest/honor removed for no reason given. back to gw2 i guess?

Here is something you and everyone else on this forum has to realise, I am going to try to explain it as clear as possible but I only have 8 minutes to go.

Blizzard does not track or record your gameplay in ANY way, they have no idea what you are up to and they cannot know if you break any rules unless they catch you in action because of some report against you. When Blizzard say that they will investigate the ladders and reset teams that are being accused to exploiting the MMR, how will they know what team to reset? All GM's aren't even as aware of how MMR and rating works as we are. They are trying to do a good job and that means there is a chance some innocent teams will get hit as well, just like somebody innocent for a crime in real life can be accused of something.

I do not understand all the crying going on in this forums, I play one of the worst classes right now and I can't get any rating but I still have fun playing the game, because that is what it is about! I know atleast 80% of the users on this forums are grown men, grown men don't bitch and whine about the smallest things. Would you go cry in the bathroom or whine to all your co-workers if the gorvernment raised taxes by a few dollars every month, it would affect the poor a little bit but not the rich. It's the same here, the people crying about their lost 2200 team are probably people who think it is actually hard to get 2200 (aka poor people). If you have gotten 2200 every season before why would you be bothered if you got reset once? The season is long anyway.

I know this is not well-written at all because it is early in the morning but I hope you get my point.

Oh, and here is the last thing I wish to add: NOBODY GIVES A FLYING F*CK IF YOU ARE QUITTING WOW! GLAD TO GET RID OF ONE MORE CRYBABY FROM THE GAME!

if some of you are still crying about random bans, i will solve the mistery for you......u didn't have to wintrade or abuse the mmr....if u played with someone that did that in this season , ur getting your mmr reseted aswell.....i know it sounds stupid but that's how it is......so tehnicly u dont need to be wintrader, but if u played with wintraders this season ur banned 3 days / gear removed / mmr reseted ;D

its not the same if the amount of points gained per win is still the same. no, it's not the end of the world, but for people with multiple alts or stuff to do outside of wow it is more time consuming then before, especially if you are doing rbgs. and of course, the fact that rbgs give such a higher point cap is still ridiculous

Let me help you with the logic here. I know it's pretty complicated, so I've broken it down for you:

Assuming we are gearing for T2, and I'm a caster and doing only arena games for cap, this results in the following complex algebraic expression:

A ~ h+n+s+b+c+w+a+l+2f+e+2t+4w/p

Substitute the values:

A ~ (2250+1250+1750+1250+2250+1250+1750+2250+2(1250)+1750+2(1750)+4(2500))/180

Distribute the coefficients:

A ~ (2250+1250+1750+1250+2250+1250+1750+2250+2500+1750+3500+10000)/180

Order of operations!

A ~ 31750/180

Reduce! (see Chart a)

A ~ 3175/18 ~ 177

Chart a

After the increase to conquest point cap:

See Above.

For practice, solve for R!

Again, I reiterate... it is the same amount of time, the difference is that you can condense the PERIOD in which you obtain your gear. 177 wins over ~14 weeks is the same as 177 wins over ~9 weeks. Most of us have 177+ wins during the first 1-3 weeks, so this new increase in points we can obtain in a week's time causes obtaining gear to feel less grindy and playing often to be perceived as being more rewarding. That being said, you're the one choosing to cap your alts to keep up with others in gear. Blizzard isn't making your gear progression feel grindy; you are.

lol at mages not getting countered by hunters, look at cata frost mages, they relied heavily on PvE gear and their ability to kite physical damage dealing classes respectively. That being said, you can't kite physical ranged damage that is the hunter class unless you wanted to sit on top of them which sacrifices your positioning and is only good in duels or when positioning is irrelevant (almost never). Hunters could tranq shields leaving even more of a mages typical mitigation invalid. Roar of sacrifice was exclusively good against big crit classes (such as mages) and deterrence was excellent at stopping incoming mage burst but not as valuable against other casters due to their DoT mechanics. I specifically remember dodging hunter teams in s11 due to how bad I would get shredded and how retarded RoS pet cycling was. I guess after the frost armor change to 15% physical damage reduction mages began to handle hunters a bit better but even then I would still consider hunter a counter to frost mage for the majority of cataclysm.

I bet 90% of the guys that posted did not read the whole thing - if you actually did there would be no reason to whine. Let me sum up the basics for you:

They don't like team sitting, so, instead of the proposed rating decay they will implement the opposite (rating inflation), so the more you play the more you are rewarded

The are trying to tone down BM

They are trying to tone down warriors

Rogues are fine - the rest are doing too much damage

Mages had too much cc and dmg at the same time

PvP power with increase healing only for main spec healers (sps won;t be able to heal like mad)

CC is fine by them, but they have seen that some ppl have concerns so they keep an eye on it

Sps, destro locks and frost dks are being monitored for having a bit more burst than needed. Warrior, hunter and mage burst takes precedence

Random stuff about rbgs

Some more random stuff

Now, of course he didn't address everything, but this is a very well-thought post which, for the first time, is spot-on. It's not the best he could have done, but it's light years ahead of the worst - if those changes make it through, the game will be in a much better condition. Now, if you insist on whining something is going really wrong with you and you should consult your local psychiatrist. Also consult your nearest opthalmologist for impaired vision.

There's wayyyy too much whining. Get over it. Things won't get fixed with this sort of QQing. Turn it into something productive and make a post on the main forums validating the pros and cons about each aspect that you want to complain about.