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And hypothetically an Aikido practitioner will avoid the mount. Hypothetically.

^this! hahaha

richard, that's what my sempai would always tell me! they would always say things like 'don't go to the ground.' '...you should never go to the ground...' which became irritating, because they never did say what to do IF i ended up on the ground.

that's why i think its important to teach students at the very least how to escape the mount. 'just in case.'

All joking aside, if you don't have at least a fundamental grasp of grappling you are doing yourself a dis-service. Coming from a judo background I'm fully aware of how capable even an untrained person is of taking another individual to the ground if they have no experience in any sort of grappling.

Not to be contrary, but a little more than just a basic escaping the mount, then get clear. Don't want to give people the impression that it is an easy thing to do in a real fight necessarily.

Not at all. It's not an easy thing. But, tactically speaking, you don't know if you're only dealing with one person. if there's the chance that more than one person is involved in an attack, I wouldnt try to get into a clinch with that person... My 2 cents, I guess.

At least we're agreed on students needing some instruction on what to do if they end up on the ground

Yes, two people definitely complicate things and absolutely you need to try and keep distance and control (or create it)....try to put furniture or something else between you and them, deploy another weapon...etc, etc.

Clinching, well, I agree that it is not something you necessarily seek out...but the thing about clinching is, when you have to do it, you simply have to do it. It is about gaining or loosing control of the fight and not so much about that freedom of movement or choice you have in the situation. In some scenarios with multiple opponents it is what you need to do cause that is what you have and controlling that space might be necessary to avoid further bad things happening to you.

If you think about it, clinching is really the same thing as irimi nage, except a little closer than what we typically are used to. You can irimi...then tenkan in the clinch placing your opponent between you and the "multiple".

So, that is the thing for me. It is not about what you'd like to do, but what you have to do.

So, imo, the clinch and working it, is absolutely one of the core things everyone should know. It is one of the core, basic things I teach and work with guys on who are not concerned with learning BJJ, but the basics of fighting. I also work with them on other variations and distances with iriminage.

If you think about it, clinching is really the same thing as irimi nage, except a little closer than what we typically are used to. You can irimi...then tenkan in the clinch placing your opponent between you and the "multiple".

In that respect, I agree. The way you decribe irimi nage... From standing? Definitely. Then it makes total sense. Keep keep the opponent between you and the other attacker. But escape the mount, then get in a clinch on the ground? If there's another attacker?

If I get in a tied up with one attacker on the ground, trying for an armbar, i lose focus on the other person maybe. Thats why I start to think escape, then get clear.

Jerome, I am with you. In fact, I teach combatives instructor to avoid the mount and stick with a knee on belly if possible. Mount is too committed. If you have your legs over your opponent it is pretty much impossible to dismount and deal with the next guy without creating a condition for the guy on the bottom to react.

While knee on belly gives up some control of the uke, it allows you to better respond to others. There are always trade offs in everything we do.

Yeah, arm bars...they are real committed solutions, but then again, in the right circumstances...they are a tool.

I try to expose my students to as much of the spectrum and curriculum of jiu jitsu as possible and guide them through the various risk and decision process as possible given different conditions and scenarios.

I have not found one technique/process yet that does not have a use under the appropriate conditions. we just have to make sure we understand what those are!

You bring up a good point about escaping the mount and then losing focus. In CQB training I talk alot to the guys about emotional investment and attachment. Under stress, guys will do just that, get focused on the one guy and hit him over and over again instead of taking him out or isolating him and moving on. We try and build scenarios the educate on this and then create habits that minimize this investment.

Well the thread got huge by now,so I will try to state my opinion having in mind the original post and simultaneously tying to avoid the "this vs that martial art trap".The way I see it one should avoid in any case getting himself in a disadvantage by using his perception of his training in zanshin and maai principles,whether his attackers are martial artists or not.If he ends up on the ground nevertheless,there are ways to get out of there using aikido principles but it depends on one's level of ability as always.

All joking aside, if you don't have at least a fundamental grasp of grappling you are doing yourself a dis-service. Coming from a judo background I'm fully aware of how capable even an untrained person is of taking another individual to the ground if they have no experience in any sort of grappling.

One day out of the blue my sensei said, "You can never say an aikidoist dosen't know how to fight because you never know what else they may have trained in." That line takes on new relavance for me every few years. Cross training in other arts is invaluable because no single style trains for everything and there's nothing worse that getting suprised with something you've never seen or never trained for.

when I was in japan, in'64. An australian olympic oarsman. 6'4", a friend of a judo buddy of mine, walked up to me, and pushed his closed fist on my shoulder, thumb down, ready for nikkyo. I could do half squats with 650 lbs., then, but, I couldn't do anything with the oarsman. I explained that we would have to start from scratch, so I could do atemi- waza, work him into position, etc. but, actually, I just got caught in a trap by a judo guy, out to prove that aikido was no good.

"You can never say an aikidoist dosen't know how to fight because you never know what else they may have trained in."

Can't say I agree with this message. The implication is that Aikido, by itself, is not sufficient to "fight" with.

I have been studying Aikido for about 14 years and agree that it is not a complete martial art (but, which art is?). However, that is not the intent, is it. We, who study Aikido, have chosen it for what it does offer, a way of handling conflict without harm to others (at best). If someone just wants to learn self-defence, they are better off taking a long weekend self-defence course, including the safe and proper use of guns.

As for ground work. I have dabbled in a few other martial arts besides Aikido, some included some ground work, which I found to be very valuable. My most memorable instruction in this regard was my Army close combat training a long time ago. It was VERY limited in those days, but one of the things I most remember is that just because you have been forced to the ground, the fight is far from over, whether you manage to get back to your feet or fight from the ground.

As for the comment about the 6'4" Australian oarman. Roadtoad was at a disadvantage as he was attempting to do nikkyo on a very strong, experiencd person from a static position. My experience is this is usally done when teaching newbies, teaching them the basics of the technique. Aikido, done in "real" life is usally done dynamically. In the dojo I train in we have a aikidoist (Nidan) who is 6'5" and weighs about 340 pounds. He is very experienced and very kind to us mere mortals. However, if he did a commited attack, and nage manage to take his balance, then the throw, or pin, should work (I'm simplifying things here, but you get my drift). If he did as our Australian friend did and just statically thrust his hand in a nikkyo position on someone 's shoulder, I don't know of anyone who could move him. If it was me, I'd just pull my gun and shoot him (hey, just kidding, we have to park our guns at the door).

when I was in japan, in'64. An australian olympic oarsman. 6'4", a friend of a judo buddy of mine, walked up to me, and pushed his closed fist on my shoulder, thumb down, ready for nikkyo. I could do half squats with 650 lbs., then, but, I couldn't do anything with the oarsman. I explained that we would have to start from scratch, so I could do atemi- waza, work him into position, etc. but, actually, I just got caught in a trap by a judo guy, out to prove that aikido was no good.

I walked out of aikido 40 years ago, when Kissomaru fired Tohei, I won't come back until I develop the 'big Ki'.
Meanwhile, I've taken a zillion different arts. For someone trying to tackle me low, I use a combination of an Indonesian style, and judo. I fold my arm in, like an elbow strike, to push him back,.about waist high, preferably, to his week side, then, try and clip his furtherist leg behind him, at the knee joint,with my heel, then rock him until tou take his balance, then, use a judo sacrifice. There are at least 4 different directions that you could throw him, usually, he goes over your body, as you fall to the ground, floor, mat, etc.