Most Christians are under the impression that if you only believe, then getting to heaven is pretty straight forward. Most preachers and the various churches will tell you how simple it is to have “salvation,” and it is all for free! All you have to do is— just simply believe— so they tell us. But, as you read the fuzzy details as spelled out in the bible you apprehensively find it is not at all that simple. In fact, the more you read the bible and try to find out just how you can gel to that there “salvation” the more confusing, the more complicated, the more ambiguous, and the more difficult it gets. In fact, there are so many ambiguous and contradictory quotations by Christ saying that because of such and such you cannot get into the kingdom of heaven, that instead of it being so simple, we find there are so many conflicting stipulations, all of which say that you can’t get salvation, say that you can’t get to heaven. By the lime you get through examining and finding all the road blocks that are placed in your way, you find out that you just can’t gel there— which means that practically everyone is condemned to go to hell and bum forever and ever. Evidently, there are only two camps. If you can’t get to heaven, you’re going to go to hell. These are the supposedly “Glad Tidings” and “Good News” that Christianity brought.

This thread will probably be moved to a more appropriate venue but before it goes, I'd just like to point out that all religions have the problem of being made up by some prophetic source who just has to be taken on faith. Even where the religious message is coherent and capable of avoiding multiple schisms between believers of the same text, the fundamental problem is that you're basically playing Simon Says. Did God appear to you? Did you run across clay tablets with a list of commandments to follow? If not, you're basically borrowing somebody else's story. How do you know what they're telling you is true? Invariably, it will come down to faith. But if believing something could make it true, anything could be true, given the addition of one believer. What's the point of believing something simply because your friends or family members got together and pressured you into it?

All religions are essentially fraternities. Proselyting is just a never-ending recruitment drive. They want you to believe because by doing so you validate their belief. Deep down inside, it takes a lot of indoctrination and conformity to drown out the little voice of reason, the one that says, "You know what? This is all bull!@#@!"

... In fact, the more you read the bible and try to find out just how you can gel to that there “salvation” the more confusing, the more complicated, the more ambiguous, and the more difficult it gets. In fact, there are so many ambiguous and contradictory quotations by Christ saying that because of such and such you cannot get into the kingdom of heaven, that instead of it being so simple, we find there are so many conflicting stipulations ...

This is one of numerous reasons for rejecting Christianity as a viable path toward enlightenment.

This is also circumstantial evidence that there is no God. Surely, an omniscient omnipotent being would have the ability to AT LEAST communicate a clear and consistent message. The god described in the Bible is one of the most inept supernatural beings ever proposed.

"Some people claim that there's a woman to blame. But I know it's my own damn fault."

By the way, I view "Hell" as a metaphor for the unpleasant consequences of holding beliefs or engaging in behavior rooted in shortsightedness, greed, lack of compassion, willful ignorance, hatred, misdirected anger, or other, for lack of a better word, "stupidity".

"Some people claim that there's a woman to blame. But I know it's my own damn fault."

Most Christians are under the impression that if you only believe, then getting to heaven is pretty straight forward. Most preachers and the various churches will tell you how simple it is to have “salvation,” and it is all for free! All you have to do is— just simply believe— so they tell us. But, as you read the fuzzy details as spelled out in the bible you apprehensively find it is not at all that simple. In fact, the more you read the bible and try to find out just how you can gel to that there “salvation” the more confusing, the more complicated, the more ambiguous, and the more difficult it gets. In fact, there are so many ambiguous and contradictory quotations by Christ saying that because of such and such you cannot get into the kingdom of heaven, that instead of it being so simple, we find there are so many conflicting stipulations, all of which say that you can’t get salvation, say that you can’t get to heaven. By the lime you get through examining and finding all the road blocks that are placed in your way, you find out that you just can’t gel there— which means that practically everyone is condemned to go to hell and bum forever and ever. Evidently, there are only two camps. If you can’t get to heaven, you’re going to go to hell. These are the supposedly “Glad Tidings” and “Good News” that Christianity brought.

Hi Wayne

All anyone can give you is their opinion, here is mine for what it is worth.

If you will do your best to live a loving and just life and make your apologies and restitution for your wrong doings. If you will do your best to treat others as you would like to be treated, you will be bringing yourself into harmony with God and will be on the path to heaven. Keep your heart and mind open, ask God for help and guidance and you will get it.

There are no magic words to say. Heaven is a choice to live a good life and to develop a relationship with God. My belief is that Jesus is God embodied and that He taught what we need to know. Read His words and decide for yourself what He meant, then do it. Patiently persist and you will be alright. God is friendly, merciful, patient, reasonable and is for you, not against you.

By the way, I view "Hell" as a metaphor for the unpleasant consequences of holding beliefs or engaging in behavior rooted in shortsightedness, greed, lack of compassion, willful ignorance, hatred, misdirected anger, or other, for lack of a better word, "stupidity".

Well, I think that's accurate. Of course I'm not a Christian, nor a 'literalist'..... There's a Midrash somewhere where a person is taken to see Heaven and Hell. In both cases, the residents are seated around a banquet table with more and better food than the visitor has seen in all his life. And in both cases, each person has a long spoon stuck to their hand:

In Hell, they are starving and trying to eat the food fallen to the floor (but it disappears).

In Heaven, they are nibbling daintily whilst conversing congenially with their 'neighbors' - because each one is feeding *another* and not trying to feed themselves.

Whenever we enshrine selfishness as a virtue, we ensure that "Hell's comin' with us" - for us.

We're all 'in this together' - in this life, in this world, on this planet. Most are trying to get us all through it together. But there's a few who think they'll get more in a 'free-for-all'. Of course they have to overturn the rule of law first, for even secular law takes a dim view of theft and murder.

What are those doing but seeking to make a god of themselves? Which is the epitome of idolatry, of course.

Most Christians are under the impression that if you only believe, then getting to heaven is pretty straight forward. Most preachers and the various churches will tell you how simple it is to have “salvation,” and it is all for free! All you have to do is— just simply believe— so they tell us. But, as you read the fuzzy details as spelled out in the bible you apprehensively find it is not at all that simple. In fact, the more you read the bible and try to find out just how you can gel to that there “salvation” the more confusing, the more complicated, the more ambiguous, and the more difficult it gets. In fact, there are so many ambiguous and contradictory quotations by Christ saying that because of such and such you cannot get into the kingdom of heaven, that instead of it being so simple, we find there are so many conflicting stipulations, all of which say that you can’t get salvation, say that you can’t get to heaven. By the lime you get through examining and finding all the road blocks that are placed in your way, you find out that you just can’t gel there— which means that practically everyone is condemned to go to hell and bum forever and ever. Evidently, there are only two camps. If you can’t get to heaven, you’re going to go to hell. These are the supposedly “Glad Tidings” and “Good News” that Christianity brought.

I don't think the Tanach is all that fuzzy. The New Testament... well, yes, it's fuzzy because it covers an evolution of doctrine and beliefs, and makes contrasting statements, whereas the Tanach is based on a single "doctrine" (that of the Torah).

In the Torah, what matters is your behaviour toward your fellow man (and thus towards G-d). That's all the Torah really addresses - is behaviour. No promises are made to the Jews that if they follow the Torah they will go to "heaven" or threatened with the idea that if they don't they will go to "hell". All that's promised is that if they follow G-d's "teachings and instructions" (the Torah, the "law" to most Christians), they will be "blessed".

Now anyone who has lived more than a few years knows that "in real life" you don't always get rewards for doing the right thing, nor does everyone who does the wrong things get punished... so obviously, the "blessing" is where you find it... within yourself.

When Jesus spoke of the "Kingdom of Heaven/G-d", he was speaking of an established Jewish idea that this earth would someday be inhabited "mostly" by people who follow G-d's ways. That's all. It had nothing to do with "heaven" as currently conceived. If you read the book of Revelation, that becomes clear; the New Jerusalem is here, and only those who are following G-d's ways are allowed in it; the wicked are kept out. (And this is after the final judgement, etc.).

While Jesus did believe in "GeHenna" (essentially purgetory), that was (as someone correctly pointed out) a belief that morphed out of the Babylonian "heaven" and "hell"... but it still wasn't the "hell" of later invention. It was "GeHenna" which was in "Sheol", which also included "Paradise".

While there has been a long-standing belief that there "is" an afterlife among the Jews, "what" that is composed of is still up for debate... and it's not the "point" of the Jewish Faith. The "Point" of the Jewish faith is... how you live. What happens when you die is, essentially, up to G-d.

The morphing of Jesus' "Kingdom of heaven" into "heaven and hell" as presently conceived happened long after Jesus was gone from the picture.

Everyone who believes in Christ is saved. The question should be, " can you believe in something, yet not live what you believe?" Now if you say you believe in Christ, what exactly does that entail? That He lived? That He died for our sins? Or that He gave us a Way to Live? Again, its if you are commited to His truth, or if your just ok, with using His life as your label of choice?

Without the Soul of Christ alive in us...we are nothing but empty shells...

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. AristotleNever discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato.."A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson