Well excuuuse me for not being a member rick I used to go to this board as "someone.." when there was no reason to sign up and now I haven't gotten around to it. Also saying "Why should anybody pay any attention to you? You don't
even have the conviction or the nerve to sign your post."
doesn't really convince anyone of anything. And koshare you are one sick sick person "not carring if 500,000 iraqian children dieing" even if they they have nothing to do with this. Also if a women was raped she can fight back but going out to kill everyone that has anything to do with the person how did it is over reacting.

09-23-2001

novacain

For America to be the GOOD guys there has to be a BAD guy!!

From Rick Barclay
>>Of course not. Don't say anything about Saddam's nuclear project, his biological project. Oh no, no, no, no, no. That wouldn't be fair. Saddam's a great guy. We all know that. He's protecting us from the Iranians. And of course it was all a CNN lie that he invaded Saudi Arabia, too. Tsk, tsk. Shame on them . And what, save that he was the one responsible for getting our hostages out of barbaric Tehran, what does Ronald Reagan have to do with any of this? We talking today, not ancient history.

Two things Rick;
1. This has everything to do with America's foreign policy and as you put it ancient history. Which includes RRaygun. It was an example of how long back, America created this terrorism problem. Propping up regimes for the intrest of the US$. If one falls (Shar of Iran), create another (Sadam). No cares for the stability of the regime or region.
Sadam is an evil bastard. Given. So why did America provide him with arms?
You though he would use them for the right cause (yours)? Or didn't you care as long as he used them on Iranians?

2. In the geatest nation on earth;
50% of the people don't care who runs it, they don't bother to vote. Hey why vote, its all up to the lawyers anyway.
There are more guns than people. And these are used to kill more people each year than are missing in the WTC. Yet try to take them away.
The previous president (Clinton) can lie under oath (at J Flowers trial he denied the ML affair and defended himself on his good name) and get away with it. NO ONE CARES. They just complain about how much Starr spends. If you or I had lied under oath at a trial, what would happen to us?

Seeing you have America so well balanced (I haven't read of a black church being burned down, or school shooting in months) why don't you just take care of the rest of the worlds problems?

09-24-2001

rick barclay

Two things, novacain:

1. Ron Reagan was one of this country's most popular Presidents,
not because he was a war monger as your use of his name
implies, but because he didn't have to ask the Iranians twice
to hand over our hostages, and he regained for us all the
world respect that Carter had given up. You're like most
foreign offspring who can't live in this country and therefore bash it instead. You focus on the negative aspects of our life
and ignore all the good things. You probably know more about
my country than you do about your own, which is understandable,
since there's a hundred times more information written about
the United States than whatever is scribbled down regarding
yours. You're envious. We understand.

2. >In the greatest nation on earth:<

Thanks. We agree. And yes, we have our Neros and Elagabalus', our Garfields (the President, that is) and Clintons,
history's clowns, who detract from our greatness. But we likewise
have our Caesars, our Constantine's, our Lincolns, our Roosevelts, who more than make take up the slack created by
those other negative entities. And a thousand years from
now, when historians do their millenium rewrite of the age we
live in today, whose country will will they focus on? Yours or
mine? Hah! Don't bother. We already know the answer. And
one of the names they will add to that long list list of heroic
American rulers who faced immense challenge and rose up
to meet it will be that of George W. Bush. So eat yer heart out,
bub. And get with the winners before it's too late for ya.

rick barclay

09-24-2001

novacain

I notice you don't say I'm wrong........

>>You're like most foreign offspring who can't live in this country and therefore bash it instead

Actually Rick, I can get a green card. But I choose not to.
Why would I?
Here is cleaner, safer and the weather is great. No one has a gun, not even the criminals. You can walk the streets at night in safety.
Can you say that in the greatest country on earth?
Or is your paradise lost?
For IT staff, this little city is in the top 10 locations in the world.

>>You're envious
Not in the slightest.
I am angry that, as usual, America thinks with its US$ and its guns and ignores its responsibility. We all have to live in this world, when will America realise this and stop acting in only Americas interests?

>>You probably know more about my country than you do about your own, which is understandable, since there's a hundred times more information written about the United States than whatever is scribbled down regarding yours.

How much do you know about my country?
How much do you really know about what your country is doing?
I have taken the time to learn about the world, have you? (or do you just believe what you see on CNN?) I have been to every continent, learned about the major religons, have you? Or do you only know about America?

The big question is;

What is the difference between the terrorists and us?

(We are supposed to follow the law, even if they don't.)

09-25-2001

Koshare

"not carring if 500,000 iraqian children dieing"

yes I dont care, there are starving abused american kids, I have seen them, and no one helps them.

The value of an american kid is much greater then that of an iraqian kid. an iraqian kid will produce 30,000 dollars in goods in his lifetime, an american kid will produce 6 million.

its not my problem a dictator doesnt care about his people. if my own country has kids dieing, adicted to drugs, and abused, i will deal with that problem first.

I would care, if the parents used protection and didnt have so many kids.

explain to me how it is wrong that I dont care about people I will never see, that I never hurt?

09-25-2001

Koshare

"Seeing you have America so well balanced (I haven't read of a black church being burned down, or school shooting in months) why don't you just take care of the rest of the worlds problems?"

the reason why we have these problems is deversity and tolerance.

Guns are used for self defense, most killings are done with illegal guns. If you take the guns from the citizens, only criminals will have guns...

09-25-2001

Betazep

>> explain to me how it is wrong that I dont care about people I will never see, that I never hurt?

That is a one of the coolest statments I have heard someone say in a while...

I can't explain to you how it is wrong... but I think it is more right to care about people from a humanitarian viewpoint. The thing is most humanitarian acts are done to make oneself feel better about oneself.

"Human beings are a disease... you are a cancer on this planet... and we... are the cure."

09-25-2001

novacain

>>the reason why we have these problems is deversity and tolerance.

The reason you have school shootings is tolerance? Or why you burn black churches?

We have never had a school shooting.(as far as I know) Some idiot vandalised a church here because he saw 'arabic' writting outside after the terrorist attacks. It was an othadox(?) catholic church. He only smashed a few windows.

>>Guns are used for self defense, most killings are done with illegal guns. If you take the guns from the citizens, only criminals will have guns...

This is not true. Ask a Canadian, Englishman or Aussie.
Ask the victims familes if they care the gun was illegal.
Assult/automatic rifles are used for what by citizens?

Our criminals don't have guns. As there are no guns they are VERY hard to get hold of. If you join a gun club you must wait two YEARS before you can take the gun HOME. Then you must have a safe to keep it in. The guns and criminals is a falsehood put about by Charlton H and his NRA.

If you need proof look at the gun deaths per head in the US, then look at the same figure for UK or Canada. You will be shocked.

>>explain to me how it is wrong that I dont care about people I will never see, that I never hurt?

But you are hurting them. Your companies are polluting their land. You are screwing their economies because you can being the biggest, and one of the most protected economies.

>>The value of an american kid is much greater then that of an iraqian kid. an iraqian kid will produce 30,000 dollars in goods in his lifetime, an american kid will produce 6 million.

A persons worth has NOTHING to do with the $ they will produce. Just a prime example of my arguments about American values.

09-25-2001

Betazep

>>A persons worth has NOTHING to do with the $ they will produce. Just a prime example of my arguments about American values.

That is a blanket statment if I ever heard one... it certainly shows your bias...

Also, he asked you to tell him why it is "wrong" that he doesn't care about these people (not saying that I or all americans share his sentiment). It is an interesting statment. If I look through time and see battles raged, attacking barbarians, etc... I see a myriad of different thoughts.

The people being attacked didn't care about their attackers really.... they just wanted their simple lives. They probably thought the attackers should just go off and die somewhere. Many probably fought to keep things as they were.

The attackers wanted their land, possesions, women, etc. I do not think that they cared much for the ideals and ways of the people they attacked... initially.

And history contiues... and we learn from it. And we start to care about things. And we build our communities. And we police our comunities to keep things safe from common criminals. And we build big structures and posessions. And we care and we care and we care.

Then someone comes to take it away. We probably wish they would just go away and die somewhere. We don't care what they do, but don't want them here killing us.

Is it wrong not to care about them, then? You probably say yes... but I imagine you wouldn't lie down and die if the jihad was walking into your country. You wouldn't let it take your parents, lover(s), and children.

And the funny thing is... I wouldn't let them do that to you either. I don't think that asking them nicely to stop will make them stop. It might though...

So many people with messages... like beacons of thought. Everyone takes a side, or does nothing at all. ANd we continue, as a human race, to race toward total planetary exauhstion while squabbling about who is right, who can pee the furthest, and which television show is the best.

There is some perspective for you.... what do you think?

09-25-2001

novacain

I don't disagree that something has to be done about terrorists. I don't think war is the answer.

I just want you to understand that they did not wake up one morning and say "Lets kill someone, lets blow up America."

They have been manufactured.
And as much as I disagree with their actions, I understand the forces that produced them and why they feel there is no other solution. We in Austrailia have felt the brunt of economic war from the US for quite some time now. there is nothing we can do. If we produce a better or cheaper product you impose tarrifs and quotas.
This is how you treat allies.

We are starting a war. Probably WW3. This is exactly what Bin Laudin wants. We have now made him famous/imfamous and much more powerful.

Betazep, my comments in response to Koshare's statement about a childs worth. read my previous posts in this thread and you will understand I am talking about attitudes/values.
Don't you see anything wrong with Koshare saying

>>The value of an american kid is much greater then that of an iraqian kid. an iraqian kid will produce 30,000 dollars in goods in his lifetime, an american kid will produce 6 million.

It illustrates that he views a person in $ value. This is what I am saying is the root of the problem in the middle east.

Terrorism is not the disease it is but a symptom.
We have to treat the disease.

09-25-2001

rick barclay

I'm a little confused. What has Australia produced that we can't
manufacture better and sell cheaper here in America? I don't
think I can name one Australian import. Most of our tariffs are
aimed at the Japanese, I think.

Your opinions are music to Osama Bin Laden's ears. What will
it take for you to change your mind? Their use of a biological
weapon? A nuke? Sorry, but I've got four children and a wife
to think about besides my own worthless skin. Better too
early than too late. It amazes me how many people pooh,
pooh the Bin Laden-quasi muslim threat.

rick barclay

09-25-2001

MechanicX

Novacain, are you trying to say that America had been a great factor in producing these madmen and will continue doing so in the future unless it changes its foreign dealings? Also, you support action against terrorists but you dont want innocents getting hurt.

If so, then I agree with you. I don't think that others here get your point. I really think the lifestyle of America is pretty good. But they did step over others to get where they are now.

It does make me wonder why the US has lifted sanctions agianst Pakistan and India on the nuclear issue after this. Why would they do this now? Because Pakistan had helped America? I wonder how this will work out for America in the future.

I just heard that the Northern Alliance (Taliban opposition) is getting support from the Russians and might get support from America in the future?

Does anyone else see a vicious circle? Just like when Russia invaded Afghan the Taliban got support from America. Now what will happen after the Taliban is destoryed and the Northern Alliance is left to take over Afghan?

(This is to Rick: in the past posts, all you replies to mine weren't consructive at all. First you said I got a camel smell or something. Then you call me a homo. Real mature. Wonder what next?)

09-25-2001

nvoigt

Quote:

Terrorism is not the disease it is but a symptom.
We have to treat the disease.

Actually I think you have to treat the symptom until
it's not longer dangerous to the patients health,
then treat the disease.

09-25-2001

Koshare

"If you need proof look at the gun deaths per head in the US, then look at the same figure for UK or Canada. You will be shocked. "

look at what happened to the number of murders and violent crimes after australia illegalized guns.... lol, try to manipulate those numbers in your favor. Dumbass.

america has 80 million guns, it would be a waste of money to get rid of them. I can walk into a ghetto and pick up an illegal gun in 10 minutes, how will that change when I cant get a legal one?

I have donated money to places that send food to third world countries, I do it because I feel that it is a good cause. I have thought of joining peace corps, I have done my part for the world and refuse to feel guilty that is neither my countries nor my fault.

"It illustrates that he views a person in $ value. This is what I am saying is the root of the problem in the middle east. "

no I value peoples lifes more than you think, but I will never be able to change any of the problems over there, but i can over here.

"Taliban got support from America"
and they back stabbed us...

"We have never had a school shooting.(as far as I know) Some idiot vandalised a church here because he saw 'arabic' writting outside after the terrorist attacks. It was an othadox(?) catholic church. He only smashed a few windows"

wow, in Nicuragua a school shooting occured lets shun them.
a school shooting never happened in Colombia lets follow their example.
Besides they had propane gas tanks which are more dangerous then guns, if they went of 1000 kids would be dead. My mother is used to be a substitute teacher in Jeffco, she subbed at Colombine more then once the same year this happened. I know a little bit more about this topic then you do.

"But they did step over others to get where they are now. "

which is no different then any country that ever existed since the beggining of man.

"But you are hurting them. Your companies are polluting their land. You are screwing their economies because you can being the biggest, and one of the most protected economies. "

saudi arabias per capita income is the 2nd greatest next to Isreal in the middle east. this is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. They have little farm land, little natural resourceses except oil, and very few literate people. They cant make finished goods because they dont have enough technology to do so. Respectfully, you sir are an ignorant person. We have more than 2 third world countrys in the middle east well fed and happy.