Book ChatNo Better Place To DieThe Battle of Stones River
By
Peter Cozzen's

This chat took place in the Civil War Home
Chatroom on 04/22/07 and covered Chapters 7, 8, & 9

4/22/2007 8:13 pm (et) Basecat:
Welcome to the Sunday Night Book Chat. Tonight our discussion will focus on Chapters 7, 8, and 9 from Peter Cozzens's book No Better Place TO Die: The Battle of Stone's River. Chapter 7 opens very
eerily quiet, and he describes the scene perfectly, until 6:22 AM, when all hell breaks loose.

4/22/2007 8:13 pm (et) Widow:
The title "No Better Place to Die." It's a quote, but I for one can think of lots of better places to die.

4/22/2007 8:14 pm (et) Widow:
Yes, Basecat, and Cozzens uses "twilight" to describe it. First time I've seen it to mean "dawn's early light."

4/22/2007 8:15 pm (et) mobile_96:
Along the line of "Its a good day to die"
.

4/22/2007 8:15 pm (et) Basecat:
Widow it also shows just how quiet the Rebs must have been when they moved to attack...Hard to think that they could be caught as surprised they were, but they were.

4/22/2007 8:16 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Unusual to say the least, that an army deliberately advancing against an enemy, finds itself "surprised."

4/22/2007 8:16 pm (et) Widow:
Cozzens remarks on page 82, "Kirk, like his division and corps commanders, continued to display a singular lack of concern for preparedness." That sounds like Shiloh all over again. I guess the commanding generals didn't compare notes to learn from each other.

4/22/2007 8:16 pm (et) Basecat:
This battle also reminds me of the First Battle of Bull Run, in terms of both commanders, in essence had the same battle plans.

4/22/2007 8:21 pm (et) Widow:
Oh, so it means the same as "column of twos"?

4/22/2007 8:22 pm (et) Basecat:
Much the same Widow...the rear line is supposed to be a back up to those in front. but in this case it did not work because the attacking force was overwhelming.

4/22/2007 8:23 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
The first chapter for tonight also has a wonderful example of mans ability to hold on to some of his humanity, even in battle. The story of the man providing comfort to a wounded Yankee, and the Yankees sharing of his water.

4/22/2007 8:26 pm (et) Widow:
Agreed, AHG. So many men had trouble with that conflict. The enemy is us, quote Pogo.

4/22/2007 8:26 pm (et) mobile_96:
I've heard the same idea amhg.

4/22/2007 8:26 pm (et) Basecat:
It also shows just how unprepared the Union forces were for an attack like this. Numerous mentions of lines actually facing the opposite direction during the opening stages of the attack... IMHO, the soldier's worst fear in the war was being attacked from behind and that is what exactly happened at the start.

4/22/2007 8:28 pm (et) Widow:
Meanwhile giving a single soldier a sip of water and a little comfort. When they were one on one, it was hard to see him as an enemy to kill.

4/22/2007 8:28 pm (et) Basecat:
That's why these attacks were so ferocious, IMHO...Done so under the opinion that if we wipe them out the war is over.

4/22/2007 8:29 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Individual soldiers may have had other thoughts and feelings, and those came out on the battlefield in incidents like the one mentioned, but as far as the armies of both sides went the object was to kill the enemy.

4/22/2007 8:29 pm (et) Widow:
Basecat, compare that with McClellan's Theory of Aggressive War-Fighting. Play soldier for a while and go home.

4/22/2007 8:29 pm (et) mobile_96:
But at the same time, both sides actually respected each other (most of the time).

4/22/2007 8:32 pm (et) Widow:
But at Stones River, there was a lot of aggressive war fighting. Maybe not such terrific command leadership, but on the ground, there was no lack of fighting spirit.

4/22/2007 8:32 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
For many of these Union soldiers this was only their second battle, the first being Perryville.

4/22/2007 8:32 pm (et) Basecat:
Interesting also that when Cleburne went to fight...he really went to fight...IMHO, his soldiers are the best of the AoT, and am amazed anyone survived the war who fought with that outfit. Here at Stones River, he knew how to add pressure to the attack when it was needed.

4/22/2007 8:33 pm (et) Basecat:
Very true AMHG, unlike the boys who wore gray...and who had seen the elephant a lot more than their counterparts.

4/22/2007 8:34 pm (et) Widow:
I think he had X-ray eyes, he usually could "see" the Yankees' movements, plan his countermoves, and then do it.

4/22/2007 8:34 pm (et) Basecat:
Widow...Technically there was no command leadership on the Union side...they all took off..:)

4/22/2007 8:35 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
It took a while for the cream of Union command to rise to the top.

4/22/2007 8:35 pm (et) mobile_96:
And after they had been warned about being alert.

4/22/2007 8:35 pm (et) Widow:
Most of them were yogurt, plain vanilla.

4/22/2007 8:35 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Many of the best commanders were at the brigade or even regimental level at that point in the war.

4/22/2007 8:36 pm (et) Basecat:
I know amhg has been there, as I have, but for those who have not, just wait until we walk in these woods were the attacks began...You can imagine the chaos there by walking the ground.

4/22/2007 8:37 pm (et) Widow:
Ahg, they knew much better their men's capabilities. Also, would go out and look at the ground, which the brass didn't seem to think about. Bragg included.

4/22/2007 8:41 pm (et) Widow:
Those thickets, whether cedar or briars, are impassable and impossible. Why didn't the commanders take a look?

4/22/2007 8:41 pm (et) Widow:
Their plans get skewed because the men can't get through.

4/22/2007 8:42 pm (et) mobile_96:
Because they moved after dark maybe.

4/22/2007 8:42 pm (et) Widow:
Gaps open between brigades, or they get bunched up and start drifting west toward Overall Creek.

4/22/2007 8:42 pm (et) Basecat:
Widow, because the focus of the Union plans started with an attack on the Confederate right...Had no clue that Bragg would hit them on their left as hard as they did, and before the union troops could move.

4/22/2007 8:43 pm (et) Basecat:
Hit them on his right I should say...sorry...am confusing things here.

4/22/2007 8:44 pm (et) mobile_96:
I have to admit, I had a very tough time trying to follow the movements, in all three chapters.

4/22/2007 8:45 pm (et) Basecat:
Actually the retreat to the west helped Rosecrans' in setting up lines to repel the latter portions of the attack...Confederates followed those who were retreating and soon found themselves being hit on their flanks.

4/22/2007 9:01 pm (et) mobile_96:
Wonder if Thruston ever thought he'd get out of the mess he was in, Alive, much less getting the ammo wagons away safely.

4/22/2007 9:01 pm (et) Basecat:
Widow...I tend to think it was too easy, and was forewarned not to be so cocky, which was proven correctly a few minutes later.

4/22/2007 9:02 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
The theme of every incompetent officer being drunk seems to be common. Wonder if it is an excuse, or out of
necessity, or ?

4/22/2007 9:02 pm (et) Basecat:
Mobile...Hard to imagine he did get away, especially in the terrain he was in.

4/22/2007 9:03 pm (et) Widow:
AHG, the ? could be the soldiers' willingness to believe the worst about their incompetent officers.

4/22/2007 9:04 pm (et) mobile_96:
Wondered the same amhg

4/22/2007 9:04 pm (et) Basecat:
AMHG....Bothers me to...as there were a lot of incompetent officers who were in the ranks. Hard to think that being ordered to be prepared was taken as time for me to get drunk
by everyone. :)

4/22/2007 9:04 pm (et) mobile_96:
Or it was.......true

4/22/2007 9:04 pm (et) Widow:
Soldiers are willing to die for an officer they trust to lead them wisely, but have contempt for those they believe will waste their lives.

4/22/2007 9:06 pm (et) Widow:
And soldiers can always tell the difference. If it's unwise to sit in camp and wise to attack, the men would rather attack than be bored in camp.

4/22/2007 9:07 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Accusations against Cheatham surprised me, not so much that he could get drunk, but I had the impression that he liked a good fight, and didn't need to drink to get his job done.

4/22/2007 9:08 pm (et) Widow:
Yes, AHG, it seems that every other page mentioned Cheatham's "illness." Falling off his horse, was it?

4/22/2007 9:08 pm (et) Widow:
Our next read is about Cheatham. Will be interesting to compare the two authors' viewpoints of the man's drinking.

4/22/2007 9:09 pm (et) Basecat:
IIRC amhg, during the book on Spring Hill and Franklin, wasn't it intimated that he must have been drunk at Spring Hill as well?

4/22/2007 9:14 pm (et) Widow:
AHG, it's still no substitute for plenty of nutritious food, warm clothes, and early bedtimes.

4/22/2007 9:15 pm (et) Widow:
Not that I eat nutritious food or have early bedtime, mind you. :=))

4/22/2007 9:17 pm (et) Widow:
General question about aides from the CG's staff. They ride around checking on things to report back, I suppose. Are they authorized to issue orders to the brigade and regimental commanders?

4/22/2007 9:20 pm (et) ole:
And there wasn't always time for written orders.

4/22/2007 9:23 pm (et) Widow:
Add to that, ole, that the CG's intel wasn't timely. Could be a gap of 15 minutes to several hours between an event and his knowledge of it. His orders would be outdated before he issued them.

4/22/2007 9:24 pm (et) ole:
Some managed to stay on top of developments -- even anticipate or cause them.

4/22/2007 9:24 pm (et) Widow:
Then another delay until they're delivered. By that time the whole situation has changed, and the brigadier wonders What the heck?

4/22/2007 9:25 pm (et) Widow:
That's why it's better to let the commanders close to the front lines make their on-the-spot decisions. The CG just directs from the read.

4/22/2007 9:28 pm (et) Basecat:
Folks I am having a problem here that just does not want to end. My apologies to all, but I have to go. Homework for next week will be Chapters 10, 11, and 12. I will send ks an e-mail when I get a chance so she can post it on the YODB.. Once again I am sorry for having to leave right now.