I have to disagree with a lot of people here. I am sick of the lowest dps, the slacker healer or the tank that dies three times on Ultrax because he can't click, getting the loot. So I will need and pass it to someone who deserves. I still only have a chance of winning, and if I win, I have the right to do with it as I wish. LFR isn't about gearing, it is about allowing casuals to see all the content, so those players who work hard to carrying a bunch of other people through should be rewarded if I can help it. Though, the highest DPS on things like madness or Yor tend to be the ones who do not swap targets, so I actually look at their charts, and if they actually helped and didnt just sit there, I will give it to them.
If you don't like me passing the gear I win to those who deserve it, then create a 10 man or 25 man grp, lead it, and try to kill some bosses. If you succeed you can pass loot out as you so desire.

It's possible someone will severely underperform, but it's much easier to vote kick them in a 5 man than it is a 25 man. Especially when there is no trash after the first boss in the 2nd half of DS so those players can continue to start the next encounter to prevent it from happening. It usually helps to think before you jump to conclusions and completely exclude common things.

False, the kick timer is much more restrictive in LFD than LFR. Much easier to kick and replace in LFR.

The parallel is social etiquette that applies to both. Needing on things you don't need is a douche move and a huge mark against WoW's community. You are a major contributor to how bad WoW's community is today whether you want to admit it or not.

I'd argue the narrow-minded people with ignorant views about people doing what they can to better the social norm in LFR are a bigger drain on the community. Ignoring people who leech from groups and get loot will not somehow make the problem go away, it will make it worse as more people resort to such behavior. Congratulations on encouraging the continued existence of leechers in LFR, I'd give you a plaque but you lost the roll to a guy watching youtube.

I can't stop you from doing it, but there's nothing stopping me from calling you out as a douche.

Exactly. You kids doing this can go around thinking you're white knights protecting us "goods" from the "bads", but I'm just going to stand here in my ilvl 380 gear and call you a douchebag for it. Deal with it.

Also, people saying that extra rolls don't hurt other people's chances are seriously uneducated. If five people roll for an item, each of those people has a better chance than if six people roll for it. What about that is hard to understand? If you have an item already yet you still roll on it, even if you're going to dole it out later to someone you feel "deserves it", you're still hurting individual chances of winning it on the initial roll.

Originally Posted by Henline

I'd argue the narrow-minded people with ignorant views about people doing what they can to better the social norm in LFR are a bigger drain on the community. Ignoring people who leech from groups and get loot will not somehow make the problem go away, it will make it worse as more people resort to such behavior. Congratulations on encouraging the continued existence of leechers in LFR, I'd give you a plaque but you lost the roll to a guy watching youtube.

Needing on items you already have/don't need makes you just as big a douche as the guy watching Youtube. You're hurting legitimate players chances just as much as Captain AFK.

I think SamR's point, which I agree with, is that you doing something dickish is not combating other people's douchebaggery. Really you're both being assholes to the rest of us and are both plagues on the community, albeit for doing two different things.

I find everyone saying "No its wrong" to be rather humorous. Wrong according to what? Your sense of fair play? Ok, maybe, but if its going off a personal opinion, then you can't hold others accountable to your personal standard.

Wrong according to the rules? Nope. You can need on anything you are able to roll need on and be perfectly safe. A ninja is technically one who breaks pre-arranged loot rules outside of a blizzard-enforced environment (basically outside of any LFG).

Wrong according to the community? Maybe. Sure, there are basic "rules" some people go by, such as MS>OS but those are more for self benefit and the golden rule. Those aren't even always accepted by all players.

So whose rule of "right and wrong" do you go by? Do you invoke some religious backing, "Do unto others" or something of the sort?

NOTE: LFR was supposed to help casuals see content. Remember, why do people who don't raid need gear of even LFR level? Ok maybe they are gearing to raid, etc etc, but in that case they should be playing well to practice their spec, and not /afk.
What is the premise for saying anyone else is "right" or "wrong" "good" or "bad"?

Example, if a tank is an asshole or just plain bad (whether due to skill, or lack, or because he's being lazy or just dicking around) some may say I'm justified on rolling on a tank item I need for OS. Blizzard rules allow me to do so. If I win it, am I a "bad" person? If I was running that dungeon just to build pieces for my tank spec, because I can't tank yet, and I was q'ing just for that piece, do I have more "right" then the tank who was just running for valor and happened to need it as well?

Under what circumstances is a decision right or wrong? Am I sometimes a "nicer" person, giving a tank a piece I won fair and square because he asked me too? Maybe.

Then again, consider the problems in the system. Very few people hit pass in LFD. Most hit greed or DE. If I need something for OS, I'll roll need. If the tank/heals/DPS do as well, and its their MS, I'll probably give it to them unless I'm there just to gather that piece. You see, this way I remove the chance of it being DE'd or hoping I get lucky over people who just want the crystal or the vendor price. Is that wrong? Even if I'm considering others by passing it off if two people "need" it but its their MS, I'm still keeping it over someone who'd vendor. Most players would say that is acceptable, and "right" however.

It all comes down to your personal view. No one can say you are right or wrong, as long as you are within the rules. They may kick or insult, kicking is within their right to do so.

Now more on topic, why should bad/lazy/afk players "win" loot over those who "earn" it by better performance? I'd do the same thing as the OP. Blizzards system doesn't reward good players, or those trying to improve, so I will try to do so. Some may say I am wrong, some may swear, but this is within the rules.

Note: This is specific to random people in LFD/LFR not guild/friends where progression/friendship come first.

So you're rolling need on everything in LFD just in case? Can't say I've ever run into someone being that much of a douche in LFD. I bet your LFD groups love you as you're trying to rationalize with them about why you're rolling on things you don't need.

I choose not to roll need most of the time, but I have the option should I choose to use it. If someone refuses to participate in the encounters I will roll against them to ensure they don't get rewarded for doing nothing, just like if I notice someone rolling for OS against someone's MS I'll try to help if possible. I actually had to do so yesterday when I got into a group with someone who refused to participate because his friend was kicked before I joined and we were unable to kick him because we were unable to initiate more kicks (such a stupid restriction).

---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 10:38 PM ----------

Originally Posted by SamR

False, the kick timer is much more restrictive in LFD than LFR. Much easier to kick and replace in LFR.

Except when you constantly stay in combat, as I stated. Thanks for continuing to post in complete ignorance.

It's not for you to decide whether anyone other than yourself should roll need on something they've earned in a Need/Greed system.

No, its not for me to decide, but it is for me to judge people on their actions. If you roll need on an item you obviously don't need since you have the item or better and don't plan on using it. It is my right to classify anyone in that category as a douche. I don't care if you don't need the item and are going to hand it to someone else. I don't care if you are just trying to cut out the bads. You aren't part of the system to choose who is deserving of loot.

Now if you are claiming it is your right to roll need on whatever you have the ability to do so on, then you are just trying to justify immoral practices. If you need an item for anything other than to use it you are abusing the system. You only need the item if you are going to wear it and equip it. Any other use of said item is fallen under the greed category. Blizzard left you the option to choose which way to go. Just because you choose to make an incorrect decision doesn't make it right because you can. If there were consequences to the action I bet you wouldnt' do it. Problem is you are allowed to be a douche to others in this game with no consequences for that action.

Exactly. You kids doing this can go around thinking you're white knights protecting us "goods" from the "bads", but I'm just going to stand here in my ilvl 380 gear and call you a douchebag for it. Deal with it.

Also, people saying that extra rolls don't hurt other people's chances are seriously uneducated. If five people roll for an item, each of those people has a better chance than if six people roll for it. What about that is hard to understand? If you have an item already yet you still roll on it, even if you're going to dole it out later to someone you feel "deserves it", you're still hurting individual chances of winning it on the initial roll.

And you still fail to acknowledge the point we are making.. you continue to use the failed argument of "you already have the item so need is not an option for you." WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO WITH THE ITEM I RIGHTFULLY WORKED FOR?? If I helped kill the boss (highest dps on most days) how can you say anything about depriving me of my FAIR AND SQUARE NEED ROLL? It is my choice what I do with that item once i have it in my bags.. including DISENCHANTING IT right in your face if i want. Luckly for you, this isnt the case, this isnt what we are insinuating what is happening here, we are taking the item we RIGHTFULLY won, and giving it to someone we feel pulled their weight. End of story. Period.

I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me.

We are not monsters! We are not the mindless wretches of a ghoul army! NO! We are a force even more terrifying! We are the chill in a coward's spine! We are the instruments of an unyielding ire! WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!

Those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long.

Also, people saying that extra rolls don't hurt other people's chances are seriously uneducated. If five people roll for an item, each of those people has a better chance than if six people roll for it. What about that is hard to understand? If you have an item already yet you still roll on it, even if you're going to dole it out later to someone you feel "deserves it", you're still hurting individual chances of winning it on the initial roll.

Except when you constantly stay in combat, as I stated. Thanks for continuing to post in complete ignorance.

I would love to see a Fraps of your LFR runs where you're constantly in combat the whole run. I've seen plenty of AFKers and semi-AFK slackers kicked from my LFR groups. It's not hard. As soon as you mention someone is AFK in raid chat, people jump on them right away.

And you still fail to acknowledge the point we are making.. you continue to use the failed argument of "you already have the item so need is not an option for you." WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO WITH THE ITEM I RIGHTFULLY WORKED FOR?? If I helped kill the boss (highest dps on most days) how can you say anything about depriving me of my FAIR AND SQUARE NEED ROLL? It is my choice what I do with that item once i have it in my bags.. including DISENCHANTING IT right in your face if i want. Luckly for you, this isnt the case, this isnt what we are insinuating what is happening here, we are taking the item we RIGHTFULLY won, and giving it to someone we feel pulled their weight. End of story. Period.

Fallacious argument. Your argument there is either John will be there or Ben will be there and there is no difference between them toward the player's chances of winning.

But that's not the situation here. The situation being addressed here is whether or not John will roll. If he does roll, he hurts the player's chances. If he does not, he does not hurt the player's chances.

No, I'm not. The Blizzard system already did that, it decided me. I may now do whatever I please with said item.

Originally Posted by Endler89

Now if you are claiming it is your right to roll need on whatever you have the ability to do so on, then you are just trying to justify immoral practices.

It's funny how the naysayers say "there's a system in place already!" when it suits them, and then switch out immediately to play the 'morality is more important than the system' card, again when it suits them. Either the system is correct or it isn't, pick your poison.

And you still fail to acknowledge the point we are making.. you continue to use the failed argument of "you already have the item so need is not an option for you." WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO WITH THE ITEM I RIGHTFULLY WORKED FOR?? If I helped kill the boss (highest dps on most days) how can you say anything about depriving me of my FAIR AND SQUARE NEED ROLL? It is my choice what I do with that item once i have it in my bags.. including DISENCHANTING IT right in your face if i want. Luckly for you, this isnt the case, this isnt what we are insinuating what is happening here, we are taking the item we RIGHTFULLY won, and giving it to someone we feel pulled their weight. End of story. Period.

So basically, "I can roll need so I will even if I don't need the item!"

In what MMO is that not considered a dick move?

---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 02:48 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Larwood

No, I'm not. The Blizzard system already did that, it decided me. I may now do whatever I please with said item.

Blizzard's game lets me so I'm going to do it. That's the same justification exploiters use.

naw, that's manipulating the system. I wouldn't say this is any better than someone needing on an item so they can give it to their friend (which I also think is bad).

Prove it. Those are both unsubstantiated claims. Manipulating what? The system allows a 2 hour trade window. The system both allows and condones rolling need on anything you can. What is being manipulated here? Your claim is baseless, if you want to kritik the system at least have some warrents and solvency. (warrents-: the warrant interprets the data and shows how it supports your claim. The warrant, in other words, explains why the data proves the claim)

Your claim has no proof, as such it is simply an opinion and has 0 real world impact, and no terminal impact of any sort, and as such is completely irrelevant. You see, a discussion with opposing sides requires some educated discourse, with support and claims for stances. Simply stating an opinion as fact, "That's manipulating the system" could easily be viewed as spam, and indeed I would argue any stance claimed as fact without proper reasoning behind it should be viewed as spam.

To play devils advocated against my self:

The system is designed to roll need on items which are personally needed, with the 2 hour trade window being for cases where someone disconnects, a mistake in gear allocation is made, or where a superior piece drops during said time frame and the original piece of gear is to be passed off to someone else who can make use of it. Example, tier shoulders off Hagra drop, and I keep. But backbreaker shoulders drop off spine, so I pass off tier token to a shamen for his off set.

This is using the system as intended. Anything else, although within the letter of the law, is not within the spirit of the law, and should be looked down upon.

See, I made claims both for and against my stance, whilst keeping my opinion to a minimal, as a simple restating of the grounds I gave for the original claim. Logical discourse can now ensue.