. . . Did you listen to anything I've been saying? Oh my God, what the crap is wrong with you!

[Edit] In fact, here. In case you're too lazy to scroll up:

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Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram

Star Wars has been cloned to death, and I've had quite enough of it already. And it didn't start with the prequels; the Expanded Universe has been doing the evil clone thing for years, from Dark Empire to the Thrawn trilogy.

You just complicated the story. You now have to explain how it came about. I mean you are seriously going with the idea that cloning Starkiller was planned because they knew what would happen with him, even though the Emperor looked at him as Vader's future replacement.

It's not my responsibility to come up with the why for him being cloned by someone (presumably he would be cloned after his death, but that's neither here nor there). I'm merely pointing out that it is possible and more probable than him being resurrected (something which is relatively rare in-universe, compared to cloning).

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Then you have to grow him and train him pretty early on.

They have accelerated clone growth in-universe. As for training, that's tied to the "why" question.

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To program memories.

An ARC Trooper (called "Spar", featured in two Karen Traviss novels and a few other EU sources) in the clone army got Jango Fett's memories by accident. It wouldn't be a stretch for a clone of Vader's apprentice to get memories somehow as well (it doesn't have to be deliberate; I'm just pointing out that it's not implausible).

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You're also talking that Palpatine didn't have plans to use him as his future apprentice which was revealed he did.

Where did I say that? Again, this is related to the why question, and I never intended to address the why, and as I stated above, in all likelihood if he was going to be cloned, it would be after his death.

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Then not only did you start this clone off early when Starkiller was a young kid, you grow him, train him, program him with memories; you then send him off to wonder the galaxy wondering what he should be doing with this complicated thoughts. What is the point of that?

There are too many presumptions in this line of thought. You are presuming that Starkiller being cloned means that Palpatine has to be the one who did it (though he is the most likely person), that residual memories from the original Starkiller had to have been programmed (when even elsewhere in the canon it has been demonstrated that they don't need to be programmed in order to occur), and that he would be sent by the Emperor for no apparent reason on a mission with no objectives or purpose. I'm not trying to explain anything close to the whole story; I'm only highlighting what I consider to be the most plausible explanation for Starkiller being back.

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Oh, and if you're still going with the programmed memories, how did they get Juno's quotes since they weren't there for that?

Because, as the condition you refer to in this sentence (the underlined portion) dictates, he somehow possesses the original's memories.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

I'm banking on him not being a clone simply because it'd be an awfully awkward plot for him to be cloned and then given his previous memories. It's the same effect as bringing him back to life but feels even more contrived. (Don't get me wrong, bringing him back to life is obviously a contrived way of making a sequel.) And Karen Travis's contributions to canon are among the poorest, so I really don't want to use her as a standard for what sort of thing should go on (whether or not it can.)

"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
―Vergere to Jacen Solo

It actually makes alot of sense, starkiller posssibly knew he was going to be killed so he went to kamino to make a clone of himself, the clone died on the death star, problem solved so starkiller could go into hiding or whatever.

It takes time to grow clones you know. He would then have to train him and that would take years. Please think things through before you present them.

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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi

And you have never heard of clones in star wars

Of course people have heard of them. It's when they're all of a sudden thrust when people don't think things through is what the problem is.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

It's not my responsibility to come up with the why for him being cloned by someone (presumably he would be cloned after his death, but that's neither here nor there).

After his death? Okay, TFU II is still before ANH. Are you really seriously suggesting that as a possibility?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

I'm merely pointing out that it is possible and more probable than him being resurrected (something which is relatively rare in-universe, compared to cloning).

Did it ever occur to you that Starkiller never really died and that he was presumed dead? That's not resurrection.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

They have accelerated clone growth in-universe. As for training, that's tied to the "why" question.

That is not it. I'm point out the flaws in the idea of cloning Starkiller.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

An ARC Trooper (called "Spar", featured in two Karen Traviss novels and a few other EU sources) in the clone army got Jango Fett's memories by accident. It wouldn't be a stretch for a clone of Vader's apprentice to get memories somehow as well (it doesn't have to be deliberate; I'm just pointing out that it's not implausible).

I see the Multiplicity movie factor being played, but if that is the case, the memories would be at the moment of cloning. Not after.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

Where did I say that? Again, this is related to the why question, and I never intended to address the why, and as I stated above, in all likelihood if he was going to be cloned, it would be after his death.

So you're saying that within a 1 to 2 year time period, he was able to grow up, then trained to be as powerful as he was before, which did take well over a decade before. Are you really going to go with that?

I have already contradicted every aspect of your clone theory. If I can do that, don't you think that means it won't happen that way? Think about it!

Interested in hosting a your KOTOR or TSL mod at FileFront? Send your mod HERE and we'll validate it as soon as we can! FileFront is a good way to get publicity for your mod as we get 1000's of visitors everyday. Is my LucasForum PM box full again? If you really need to reach me, PM me at YouTube under the username: Shem L -- Watch my KOTOR videos! Download my mods from FileFront!

After his death? Okay, TFU II is still before ANH. Are you really seriously suggesting that as a possibility?

Not exactly a possibility. My gut says that they're going to bring him back to life, so I'd say it's more of an option that I wouldn't put past LucasArts.

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Did it ever occur to you that Starkiller never really died and that he was presumed dead? That's not resurrection.

Of course it occurred to me. I looked over it and decided that that idea is absolutely bogus, because even if you believe that he survived that explosion at the end based on the fact that he has no visible wounds in the game (and assume that Vader and Palpatine are ****ing morons), we still have the novel (which is just as canon as the game) spelling out in no uncertain terms that the apprentice, regardless of what happens to him later, died. Even if the game leaves it ambiguous, the novel fills in the gap.

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I see the Multiplicity movie factor being played, but if that is the case, the memories would be at the moment of cloning. Not after.

Even if that was an established in-universe law of cloning, LA could use any number of methods to ignore or neutralize such a rule.

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So you're saying that within a 1 to 2 year time period, he was able to grow up, then trained to be as powerful as he was before, which did take well over a decade before. Are you really going to go with that?

I don't see any reason to believe that he would be as powerful or skilled as his original self was. As for the growth speed, that wouldn't be a problem for LA to explain, what with crazily-fast cloning cylinders from the Thrawn trilogy, and the like. There's also Sith magic/alchemy, which they could use as a handwaving device for how he grows so fast without going bat**** insane, while retaining his Force sensitivity, and so on (Sith magic can do pretty much anything the writers want it to; it's a very versatile plot device).

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I have already contradicted every aspect of your clone theory. If I can do that, don't you think that means it won't happen that way? Think about it!

I don't see how your ability to say that my theory is wrong changes any of it. Besides, there is no doubt in my mind that LA will go with the resurrection option, because it's simpler than the cloning one and I don't think that LA (even at its worst) would expect anyone to believe that Vader and Palpatine just didn't notice that he was still alive. I still maintain that while every explanation for his return is less than desirabe, the cloning explanation is the least implausible, and that's why I'd prefer it. Of course, I don't expect it to happen the way I think it should at all (for starters, I don't think the apprentice should be brought back in the first place). What I'm arguing is that if LA wanted to, the cloning option would work at least as well as any other explanation: hardly great, but could be worse.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

The clone thing is a bad idea but what other options are there? Unless he is so powerful he brought himself back to life but that seems unlikely does it not? We're just gonna have to wait for it to come out and have a rational explanation

The clone thing is a bad idea but what other options are there? Unless he is so powerful he brought himself back to life but that seems unlikely does it not? We're just gonna have to wait for it to come out and have a rational explanation

He came back to Life because TFU was the biggest selling SW game ever, Money>> Plausible Stories
But I'm sure he survived by not dieing in the first place, Star Wars is all about Relaunching/retcon/re-imagining atm

Bah; ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. He "lives" because Lucas Arts was lazy and felt more like making a game with shiny graphics and implausibly large super rancor monsters that'd draw in cheap money than put in effort and make a game with a logical plot.

Bah; ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. He "lives" because Lucas Arts was lazy and felt more like making a game with [2]shiny graphics and implausibly large super rancor monsters that'd draw in cheap money [1] than put in effort and make a game with a logical plot.

I am skeptical about what they are going to do about Starkiller's "supposed" death ("Palpatine and Vader were able to shield themselves with the Force and believed Marek was dead." wookieepedia) but:

[1] We have no clue how the game is going to be (plot wise), why don't we just

Quote:

Originally Posted by SITHWARRIOR101

wait for it to come out and have a rational explanation

before flaming about there being no effort put into it.

...and...

[2] Shiny Graphics? I assume that you mean good graphics (life-like, good nice landscape, etc)...So do you want good graphics in a game?? Or is my understanding correct, that you would rather have crappy graphics?

We don't know much at this point.Was it stated that this game was to take place after the events in TFU? If not it's possible it could take place during the first one.

This is when paying attention comes into play. Watch the trailer and listen to every piece of dialogue you hear. That can give you clues.

For example you overlooked Juno's voice. She asked, "Will I ever see you again?" Guess when that was spoken? On the Death Star; right before he went to go confront the Sith to save the Rebellion.

So if you analyze that, you know that means Starkiller is remembering as a past event which means this is after his "death", which means it's after the events of the first game.

Also, Starkiller looks older in the trailer. That should have been another hint to anybody, not just you.

Interested in hosting a your KOTOR or TSL mod at FileFront? Send your mod HERE and we'll validate it as soon as we can! FileFront is a good way to get publicity for your mod as we get 1000's of visitors everyday. Is my LucasForum PM box full again? If you really need to reach me, PM me at YouTube under the username: Shem L -- Watch my KOTOR videos! Download my mods from FileFront!

Yeah i probably should have paid more attention.I just saw the trailer once and didn't look into it too much until today.I was playing the first one and got to thinking "Oh yeah there's a second one coming out.....but he's dead >.> "

Well I'm sure there's an interesting explanation behind it......whether is ends up being complete bs or not.

Peace is a lie; there is only passion.Through passion, I gain strength.Through strength, I gain power.Through power, I gain victory.Through victory, my chains are broken.The Force shall set me free.
—The Sith Code

Yeah i probably should have paid more attention.I just saw the trailer once and didn't look into it too much until today.I was playing the first one and got to thinking "Oh yeah there's a second one coming out.....but he's dead >.> "

Well I'm sure there's an interesting explanation behind it......whether is ends up being complete bs or not.

Yeah same here. I think the trailer is pretty interesting it gives a lot of clues like shem said. I dont think it end up being bs.

I for one am really interested in see how they explain how Starkiller is still alive. I mean Vader did bring him back to life before maybe he could do the same again. I mean when I was playing TFU and *Spoilers* Vader Betrayed Starkiller and threw him out the window I thought he was really dead. *Spoilers end* So they could do the same thing again which would explain why we hear Vader in TFU2 teaser. But it'll be very interesting to see what happens. But I will say that this has increased my hype for anything Star Wars. This and The Old Republic But thats another topic.

I don't know why you guys are so stuck on cloning and resurrection. Starkiller either died on the Death Star, or Proxy did. I know Marek is not one for fear. Here are two possibilities:

1. The Netherworld is a huge place, much larger than people can think. Its the heaven of Star Wars people, come on. So, if Marek really did die, then that would be the netherworld. Because, I bet that developers want to give people a look on what the Netherworld is. Pretty much, it is what you want it to be, like the Nexus in Star Trek Generations. Watch it sometime.

Show spoiler

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Picard "died" and got in the Nexus. In that movie, it was referenced you could go anywhere at anytime. Picard went with Kirk out of the Nexus. So basically, Picard called himself out of the Nexus, nobody called him back. So, it seems that the Netherworld is the Nexus of Star Wars. So, I think that trailer had a few references to that movie. Visually.

2. After Proxy was destroyed, Galen trained himself with Yoda. Yoda speaking to him gives it away. Also, that cave on Dagobah has some power, so If this was the case, then that cave changed surroundings to an arena, like in the trailer.

So yeah, thats my 2 cents Again, I highly doubt this game will use cloning. The whole concept has been done to death.

Some Great Discussion & Debate here, yet he could've sensed through the force that the Emperor wanted him Dead by turning up at the death star an used Proxy or a Clone, but in order to find out about Kamino, he would've had to find out from Kota, which was never mentioned in the book or the game, the book series shows later on, that Palps stops using Kamino Clones an starts using another Facility, linking to the Separatists before that war was over an Order 66 came in.
The Force itself has been used to cover to make it look as if someone is dead, it happened when Luke Skywalker did it, an Ben Skywalkers connection to the Force was Restored in the Legacy Series, so that is still open for a plausability, knowing at what lengths Darth Vader wanted to Tear Down the Emperors Empire, an He Achieved that by being the Source of Creating the Rebellion, remember what Palps said to Darth in regards to that.
So still Apart from it being between Episodes 3 & 4, could this be showing The Ultimate Light Side Edition of The Force Unleashed, seeing it showed a Light Side Ending in the Book, plus also showed of it in the Game, as well as its alternate as Dark Side, That Darth could now be using Galen Marek, seeing what Darth saw Marek Achieve in front of His Eyes as a Light Sider, an being sent to other parts of the Galaxy to Help Bring Down Palps Empire, an according to the Dark Lord Rise of Vader book, showing it was Anakins/vaders Point of View after his fight with Kenobi, he seemed to have known something was up when Palps started speakin of the dark side an his practices, even though he did what he did with the Jedi Purge, it set the Future of the Jedi to Adapt to Changes it needed to do to Survive into the next Eras, just as the Sith again Adapted itself later on in the Legacy Series bringing itself to see how important it needed its own form of Jedi Council but a Sith Council, but every still wanting to be top head honcho.

"May The Force Be With You"

Last edited by JediSithLordAdas; 01-19-2010 at 04:05 AM.
Reason: text to large in size

force users can mask their force powers to stay hidden from other force wielders...and well im not sure if they can mask the force energy of others...if so...then maybe vader did that to starkiller...and maybe when starkiller 'died' he was just in a coma...so vader masked starkiller's power (if that's possible) and took him somewhere to heal just like in TFU1 when vader stabbed him and threw him into space then kept him on that medical ship. that's just my opinion...we wont know until the game comes out which i am 2 immpatient to wait for

I really hope he's not connected to Vader anymore. You can only have him be betrayed by him and then brought back later only to be revealed that it was a ruse so many times before it gets lame. I hope Galen is completely free of the Sith now, fighting against the Empire either on the side of the Rebels or as a loner.

I don't see why this long, boring, tedious cap is going on. I want to settle this once and for all. Go to Wookieepedia.com, the Star Wars Wiki. Search for TFU II. It specifically states that Vader took his dead body to Kamino, cloned him, and the clone gets "residual genetic memories" from his original self. He hijacks Vader's TIE fighter, and escapes to Cato Neimoidia, where Kota is executed in a gladitorial match like the Colusieum fight at the end of Episode II. That is why the "arena" in the trailer is shown, it is not The Netherworld!!!

There is no resurrection, there is no concealment of his death, nor is there playing as him in the Netherworld, or anything else! There is only the clone.

"Wookieepedia" is like anything else on the internet half the time you try to look for info, false or barely having detail, in certain cases they give a good amount but UNTIL the info on that place is made by the people who made the game, i won't read it.

it goes like this...
Darth Vader i think again hides star killer from emperor and creates a clone who gets memories of Juno and kota and tries to find them again. but what the clone doesn't know is Darth Vader betrayed the real star killer so he has Darth Vader telling him what to do and kota telling him that Darth Vader will betray him as he doesn't know who to believe

The only times where a power like this was used. in the Legacy comics where Cade Skywalker uses "Force Resuscitation" to revive his friends and loved ones. and that's over a hundred years after the events of this game(i believe)

Bah; ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. He "lives" because Lucas Arts was lazy and felt more like making a game with shiny graphics and implausibly large super rancor monsters that'd draw in cheap money than put in effort and make a game with a logical plot.

Maybe not. Vader was the first one to get to his body, and hes far more powerful then Kota. What if Vader felt a spark of life in him and repressed it? Kota would have felt him disapear in the force and Palpatine might not have noticed it because honestly how much power would Vader have had to use to repress his spark? Not much after that explosion. Vader could have said he was dead to force the emperor not to brouch the subject. Also Palpatine lefty the body with Vader, he could have taken it and brought him to Kamino. Finally implausibly large Super Rancors?? Dude NJO had a ****ing living Planet! How is it not possible that the empire didnt create the damn thing???

Hes Is the real Galen and he was cloned, but thats just my opinion. Only time will guys,
i wonder if they will clear up what happened to him in the final battle. i want to know
how he was able to survive. p.s cheeese !!!

Starkiller isn't a clone, from what I can gather. He is mentioned on the newer holorecords on the site. You are called subject 1138 on the holocom on the level Empirical on the 1st game, and this same name is mentioned as 'returning' to Kaimino while the klaxons wail and starships scream overhead. I believe that the Galen you play as has been manipulated into thinking he's a clone, while Vader keeps him alive to attempt to successfully clone him. 1157, the one in the tank, is the successful clone.

Or.... the Starkiller you played as for the majority of the first game, after Vader betrays you, was another clone. That'd be weird.

With regards to Shem's anti clone points.
If learning is based on knowledge and practice, and a clone has the memories of Starkiller, it's entirely plausible that he could raplidly develop his Force potential and moves to become just as strong as Galen was when he was cloned. As for memories beyond the cloning point, we have Force Connections etc.

The only thing I have trouble with is so far, rapid cloning requires Force-canceling Ysalamiri, which create Force "blind" clones, who can't feel the Force at all.

If alchemy, I don't see any Sith at the time of the films being capable of alchemy, save perhaps Palpatine, who wouldn't have any motive for doing so, that could involve Vader. It was Palpatine's attempts to use Galen to kill Vader that opened Vader's eyes to the traitorous nature of Palpatine. It was at this point that he began training his own apprentices to defeat his Master, so he wouldn't plan to clone Marek, a potential replacement, for Palpatine.

@Sage - Vadar knew about Palpatines "traitorous nature" before this game in the books, its just he is once more shown.

Subject 1138 -- Galen Marek.

- He could've been cut off from the force when he used such a huge force repulse against palpatine or He was in a near-death state, Hell there are people in the real world who "Die" but then can be brought back. Don't forget there was also a Jedi trance that made the heart beat so faintly that they appeared dead (I don't presume he has this however seeing as how it was an ancient trance used by few).

-Do to his near death experience he also has a coma or vadar worked on suppressing his memory with the technology at Kamino. While at Kamino vadar does clone him as seen in the trailer. Galen finally heals and right now currently a blank slate, due to his coma and the new memories possibly imprinted, does not question he is a clone. When he does have the visions he begins to have doubt and that is when vadar tries to keep him under control by telling him he is a clone. The clone begins to believe his master for a moment until his memories begin to resurface more and more. The final stepping stone to realizing that Vadar is not telling him the whole truth is in the Trailer "Vadar has betrayed me for the last time" this is when he begins to believe he is the true galen but with no proof to go on he goes off to find himself <Follows with the Storyline as to Find out if he is a clone or not> so he goes for Kota in hopes to also perhaps find Juno at the same time.

It would seem it would be going ^ that way to me...but they might do something slightly diffrent...

Man... If you guys have seen the betrayal cinematic.... Vader tells him... "You have served your purpose well" which implies he did work for vader, "But i have no further use for you" strengthens my point even more... Isn't that more than enough... He is not a clone...