Wouldn't that also apply for a 5 HP TV? If you have a Crusader Strike available with 5 HP, you'd delay it anyways since you're capped on HP and can't actually utilize it or any other HP generators until you spend some HP.

It seems I'm not grasping something. It just doesn't make sense to me to delay TV under any circumstance. If it is not the hardest hitting move Ret can do, then I'll re-prioritize.

Art of War procs would be wasted anyways if you're capped at 5 HP vs. 3 HP, right? In both instances, you're delaying the use of Exorcism to use TV which does hit harder than Exo, right?

Besides, assuming TV is the hardest hitting move Ret has, wouldn't you want to allow some abilities to be delayed for it so you won't end up having emtpy GCDs?

I just can't see the reasoning to delay TV *IF* it's the hardest hitting ability Ret can do. If it's not, then my questions about the 3 HP vs. 5 HP are null and void. Otherwise...Idunno.

The issue is, that while TV hits hardest, you don't lose a TV when you delay it, but when you delay another ability you are effectively losing it, because you're not triggering the cooldown. You have to look at the long term not just the short term. Filler moves generate holy power, and more holy power means more TVs in the long run. Art of War procs are not wasted because at 5TV you always use TV, but at 3HP you can prioritize fillers because you can store up to 5 holy power so the holy power from the fillers is not wasted.

Wouldn't that also apply for a 5 HP TV? If you have a Crusader Strike available with 5 HP, you'd delay it anyways since you're capped on HP and can't actually utilize it or any other HP generators until you spend some HP.

You could lose a whole Crusader Strike for the fight by delaying it at 3HP, effectively lowering your DPS. You could even lose a whole Templar's Verdict because you're only at 2 Holy Power just before the boss dies. HP generators lead to Templar's Verdict which makes them important.

The issue is, that while TV hits hardest, you don't lose a TV when you delay it, but when you delay another ability you are effectively losing it, because you're not triggering the cooldown. You have to look at the long term not just the short term. Filler moves generate holy power, and more holy power means more TVs in the long run. Art of War procs are not wasted because at 5TV you always use TV, but at 3HP you can prioritize fillers because you can store up to 5 holy power so the holy power from the fillers is not wasted.

Originally Posted by Reith

You could lose a whole Crusader Strike for the fight by delaying it at 3HP, effectively lowering your DPS. You could even lose a whole Templar's Verdict because you're only at 2 Holy Power just before the boss dies. HP generators lead to Templar's Verdict which makes them important.

Exactly these posts.

It's not about "What hits harder" it's about what you get out of your usage of them.

If you're using TV at 3HP each time you're not gaining the maximum amount of HP you can be over the course of a fight. So, sure you're using your highest damaging spell as soon as it's up, but you're not gaining as many of them through out the fight as you could be. Now, once again we aren't saying you don't want to wait to wait to use TV with 5HP EVERY time, if your other spells are on CD and you have a free GCD, use TV we don't expect you to stand around.

The point is to NEVER use a HP generator at 5HP (when you can't receive a point), and never put off a HP generator when you have room to benefit from it (when you can receive it), unless of course you'll immediately benefit from the damage of the TV (i.e killing blows).

You could lose a whole Crusader Strike for the fight by delaying it at 3HP, effectively lowering your DPS. You could even lose a whole Templar's Verdict because you're only at 2 Holy Power just before the boss dies. HP generators lead to Templar's Verdict which makes them important.

Originally Posted by Krekko

Exactly these posts.

It's not about "What hits harder" it's about what you get out of your usage of them.

If you're using TV at 3HP each time you're not gaining the maximum amount of HP you can be over the course of a fight. So, sure you're using your highest damaging spell as soon as it's up, but you're not gaining as many of them through ought the fight as you can be. Now, once again we aren't saying you don't want to wait to wait to use TV with 5HP EVERY time, if your other spells are on CD and you have a free GCD, use TV we don't expect you to stand around.

The point is to NEVER use a HP generator at 5hp, and never put off a HP generator when you have room to benefit from it (receive it), unless of course you'll immediately benefit from the damage of the TV (i.e killing blows).

I guess I'm still in the 3 HP mindset...

So what you're saying is that if you follow up the 5 HP mindset(less empty GCDs, more HP generator usage), you'll find yourself using TV more often in the long run and allow yourself to use TV or something else when you would find yourself sitting there with the 3 HP mindset, correct?

If this is the case, then many thanks. I'll just have to adjust to the new mindset asap. :P

I was under the impression that you'd find yourself sitting there regardless of both situations, but I see I am wrong. So you sacrifice early usage of TV so you can use it more in the long run. Is this the same case for short fights, such as trash?

Originally Posted by Sakpoth

I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.

So what you're saying is that if you follow up the 5 HP mindset(less empty GCDs, more HP generator usage), you'll find yourself using TV more often in the long run and allow yourself to use TV or something else when you would find yourself sitting there with the 3 HP mindset, correct?

If this is the case, then many thanks. I'll just have to adjust to the new mindset asap. :P

I was under the impression that you'd find yourself sitting there regardless of both situations, but I see I am wrong. So you sacrifice early usage of TV so you can use it more in the long run. Is this the same case for short fights, such as trash?

Yes, that's it, only use 3 HP TV if you have nothing else to use, if you have other attacks to use, use them until you have 5 HP, once you have 5 HP you have to use TV since using another move would be a waste of holy power, since all our fillers, except the level 90 talents, generate holy power. Overall, yes, if you delay TV, if you have other attack to use, until you have 5 HP, you end up generating more holy power over the course of a boss fight, and so delaying the TV gets you more TVs in the long run.

is it true that holy shock is baseline now? if yes, is it too weak to use in a rotation?

generally, how is playing a ret with instant exorcsim, holy shock (?), holy prism ( lvl 90 ranged talent) and glyphed word of glory? did ret finally get a compensation with those ranged abilities, for not having a real gap closer and stuff?

not that i ever want to return to wow, but this seems to be the ret that should have launched in cata, without the incompetent mistakes.

is it true that holy shock is baseline now? if yes, is it too weak to use in a rotation?

generally, how is playing a ret with instant exorcsim, holy shock (?), holy prism ( lvl 90 ranged talent) and glyphed word of glory? did ret finally get a compensation with those ranged abilities, for not having a real gap closer and stuff?

not that i ever want to return to wow, but this seems to be the ret that should have launched in cata, without the incompetent mistakes.

No, Holy Shock is not baseline. But Ret does have improved mobility and ranged damage.

So what you're saying is that if you follow up the 5 HP mindset(less empty GCDs, more HP generator usage), you'll find yourself using TV more often in the long run and allow yourself to use TV or something else when you would find yourself sitting there with the 3 HP mindset, correct?

If this is the case, then many thanks. I'll just have to adjust to the new mindset asap. :P

I was under the impression that you'd find yourself sitting there regardless of both situations, but I see I am wrong. So you sacrifice early usage of TV so you can use it more in the long run. Is this the same case for short fights, such as trash?

Let's saaay you have 3HP already and your target(s) is going to die in less than the time it takes to execute 2 abilities. Then you would ideally want to prioritize a finisher (TV or DS) because they'd do more damage. Other than that specific situation, you wouldn't want to do that.

Does the word of glory glyph work with the glyph of harsh words ?
How hard does word of glory hit compared to templars verdict?
With CS(4.5sec CD), J(6sec CD), How(6sec CD), Exo (15sec CD[resettable]) generating holy power, you could very well be able to maintain 100% uptime on the +9% DMG buff, at least during the last 20% of a boss fight, amiright?

No, the glyph only works when you heal. But Harsh Word of Glory still hits pretty hard. Yeah below 20% we have quite a few ranged attacks. You could also have a druid give you Wrath via symbiosis for even more ranged damage.

Does the word of glory glyph work with the glyph of harsh words ?
How hard does word of glory hit compared to templars verdict?
With CS(4.5sec CD), J(6sec CD), How(6sec CD), Exo (15sec CD[resettable]) generating holy power, you could very well be able to maintain 100% uptime on the +9% DMG buff, at least during the last 20% of a boss fight, amiright?

Any thoughts ?

Strictly speaking, a Harsh Word of Glory hits harder than a Templar's Verdict. But HWoG does not proc Seals nor does it proc mastery, whereas TV does both - and that alone makes it more valuable for a standard, single-target rotation than HWoG. Still, on fights like heroic Morchok, if you can position yourself right, you can maintain some DPS via Judgment/Exorcism/Hammer of Wrath for Holy Power and dumping through HWog.

Strictly speaking, a Harsh Word of Glory hits harder than a Templar's Verdict. But HWoG does not proc Seals nor does it proc mastery, whereas TV does both - and that alone makes it more valuable for a standard, single-target rotation than HWoG. Still, on fights like heroic Morchok, if you can position yourself right, you can maintain some DPS via Judgment/Exorcism/Hammer of Wrath for Holy Power and dumping through HWog.

I stand in the black stuff and keep attacking. Glyphed Divine Protection for the later part of the duration. If I have to, I bubble or LoH myself to keep myself alive if the healers can't for some reason. It'll be even easier when the patch goes through because of Glyph of Templar's Verdict and Sacred Shield.

Strictly speaking, HWoG doesn't hit as hard as TV even without mastery. Just tested with my 85 beta char - 27k HWoG with Inq, 30k TV not including another 15k from mastery and a seal proc on top of that. Plust HWoG doesn't trigger the WoG glyph.

There are no situations in all of DS where using HWoG is a good idea. On Morchok you can stay in the black and even if you couldn't it would be better to hold on to the Holy Power - you won't generate 5 holy power in a black phase. No significant downtime on Zon, Yor, Hagara, Ultrax, Blackhorn, Spine, or Madness.

Strictly speaking, HWoG doesn't hit as hard as TV even without mastery. Just tested with my 85 beta char - 27k HWoG with Inq, 30k TV not including another 15k from mastery and a seal proc on top of that. Plust HWoG doesn't trigger the WoG glyph.

I stand corrected, then; my statement was based on the formulas present over on EJ using an estimate of 18k AP. WoG came out 3k higher without factoring Inq. Can't remember if I included Sword of Light into my TV calc, but I'm pretty sure that I did. Regardless, glad to see that TV is still the heavy stick.

There are no situations in all of DS where using HWoG is a good idea. On Morchok you can stay in the black and even if you couldn't it would be better to hold on to the Holy Power - you won't generate 5 holy power in a black phase. No significant downtime on Zon, Yor, Hagara, Ultrax, Blackhorn, Spine, or Madness.

Yes, I realize there really isn't any use to Harsh Words is the vast majority of DS - Morchok was really the only decent example for those that may not be geared enough eat the Black Blood, or whose healers are either not geared enough to save them or are simply too lazy to do so.