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matsh sends word that PayPal has frozen the assets of wikileaks.org. From their Web site: "Paypal has as of 23rd of January 2010 frozen WikiLeaks assets. This is the second time that this happens. The last time we struggled for more than half a year to resolve this issue. By working with the respected and recognized German foundation Wau Holland Stiftung we tried to avoid this from happening again — apparently without avail." The submitter adds: "Hopefully we can pressure PayPal to resolve this quickly, since this seems like a dangerous political decision."

This has been going on for many years, with many different groups. Until people stop using Paypal, or some sort of oversight or audit is performed, it will continue to happen.
Mayhap Wikileaks should try and dig up information on Paypal.

Until people stop using Paypal, or some sort of oversight or audit is performed, it will continue to happen.

The Government has to step up and declare Paypal a bank. Banks can't take or freeze your money simply because they don't like what you do (which Paypal often does) - only the government can do that if you are in breach of laws.

Now that the Government found their balls to stand up to China for once, maybe it can do the same with corporations.

Here's a thought for everyone: Corporations were demanding the same rights as individuals, right? How about we demand they have the same *repsonsibilities* as individuals, like being jailed for your crimes. I mean if the corps really want to move in that direction then let's give them enough rope to hang themselves. We've had to live with their laws so perhaps they're asking for this as well.

I would LOVE if a corporation could commit crimes so egregious that they could be chopped to pieces and auctioned off.

That would simply screw the small-time investor, and still let the executives cash their stock options and move on. No, what you need to do is hold the CEO personally responsible for everything a corporation does. He's moved on between the deed and it's surfacing, fine: drag him to a court kicking and screaming, confiscate all the proceeds of the crime, and then send him to jail, just like

Good. The small-time investor who is not scrupulous about choosing his investments, and instead makes them based on monetary decisions, is as much to blame for the power of the corporation as anyone else. In the aggregate, they manage to do an amazing amount of damage. If you had to be choosier about your investments based on the corporation's potential to fail the ethics test, then perhaps people would be a bit more moral about what they do with their money.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for someone who loses their ass because they invested in evil. I feel that the fact that you do says something very bad about you.

No, what you need to do is hold the CEO personally responsible for everything a corporation does.

This will never work without limits. I have an alternate, similar proposal. Limit executive salaries to the sum of the people who work directly for them, and force them to share the responsibility if any of those people commits a crime during the course of their work. This helps solve the problem of ridiculous executive salaries and institutes a reasonable chain of responsibility. Attempting to induce someone to commit a crime is itself a crime, so it also provides a means of limiting people attempting to induce their underlings (or underlings' underlings) to commit a crime, although of course it does not eliminate it. But it will of course encourage whistleblowing!

Banks are corporations too. But they have legal oversight, so they can't just abscond with your money (very easily). PayPal has a well-known habit of stealing money left in people's accounts, so the simple remedy is not to leave it there. Just use the service for making transactions, which is what it's actually for.

If you run a business, you don't just leave your day's takings sitting on a desk or in your pocket, you put it somewhere safe, where either you or someone you can trust is responsible for its s

The only reason the U.S. is so in bed with China is that the Chinese own a large portion of the U.S. debt. Congress over spends by huge margins and then sells the loans to China, who then threatens to call it in if they don't get favorable trade deals.

It's a brilliant plan, interest on the money, control in government and every manufacturing contract and associated I.P. the U.S. has.

China's in it for the long haul. They're going to let the US help them rise to the top by using the US to "jump-start" their own economic success. First, they sell things to the US for cheap (and remain profitable by abusing their people's rights). To keep the US spending, they lend them as much money as they need (it's ok, it only means the plan will take longer). Then, they slowly build their own consumer-culture (this is the phase they're in now). Then, once they're in position #2, they cut the US fundin

You probably read that China had "most favored nation" status at some point and were confused.

It has nothing to do with any bullshit labels that they ever wore, and everything to do with the fact that they are some of the worst abusers of human rights on the planet, yet we send them more money for goods than to any other nation. (I covered already the fact that most of what we get from Canada is crude oil, and Exxon, Chevron, and others account for a great deal of that output, meaning that much of the money never actually leaves the country.)

Yeah, I have a paypal account. Another rule is that you may not use it for any item that is prohibited by ebay because it's an ebay company - even if it's perfectly legal and the transaction outside ebay.

I didn't sell such an item, but someone I did some small transaction with told Paypal that the item he recieved was against ebay regulations. My account was frozen, eventually the money from that transa

We'll find out whether people care or not when there's an alternative.

I formerly subscribed to Slashdot but I don't anymore because they now only accept Paypal. When they go back to accepting credit cards, I'll subscribe again. There have been other instances where I've avoided doing business with someone because it meant using Paypal. Don't trust them. Likely never will. It seems statistically unlikely that I'm the only one with this attitude toward them.

There are a bunch of places that have missed out on my money because they only took PayPal. Free online games which rely on donations, websites like slashdot, places that do micropayments, charities, businesses, etc.

I will NOT do business with PayPal. Period. I don't care what it's for, or how much it may potentially benefit me. I don't even care if it's just paying by credit card through them.

PayPal is not a bank, is not accredited, can't be trusted, and will NEVER EVER touch any of my money or other financial assets. Should they decide to do ANYTHING, my only recompense is to try to sue a corporation with deep pockets.

When the Secretary of State (Hillary Clinton) calls out the Chinese about the hack attacks, I'd say that's the US Gov't finding a pair.I look forward to someone in the Government calling out PayPal/E-Bay for their shitty business practices.

I watched parts of that speech. Was I the only one yelling at my TV, saying "WHAT ABOUT AUSTRALIA'S CENSORSHIP".

But of course, despite naming an assortment of "bad" countries (you know. where they nais pas parle englais) that are filtering the internet, she didn't mention our friends in the AU.

Australia's government does not (to anybody's knowledge) materially support hacking businesses in other countries to help quash dissent in their own. I agree that Australia's censorship schemes are reprehensible, but the main issue with China is state-sponsored hacking, and Google is the first big name to take a stand on that, and they are using the long-running 'human rights debate' as their weapon of face-losing revenge.

For the 7385th time Slashdot, repeat after me: there is no censorship of the Internet in Australia.

A couple of senators have put forward a proposal for a filter, that is all. One much more basic than China's. But this filter does not actually exist and probably never will given its widespread unpopularity. In fact it's not even to the stage of being an actual Bill introduced into the House or Senate yet. It's just an idea at this stage. An issue of public debate.

Not to say we aren't worried about it or that the idea isn't reprehensible. But it doesn't actually ~exist~ at this point... which is probably why Sen. Clinton wouldn't really say anything.

There's a rather big difference between a random Senator saying "I would like to do X", and X actually happening.

It's hardly a "random senator". It's the Government's Minister of Communications and he's pushing the fact that they've already done trials and found the filters "100% effective".

I don't think there's that much "widespread unpopularity" either - it's all couched in "if you're against this, then you're on the side of child pornographers", so people aren't really that opposed to it. It's being played very well by the people who want to control the net over here - never mind that once it actually goes in it

Interestingly this is only a problem in US and western countries. Russia and Eastern Bloc almost fully uses WebMoney [wmtransfer.com]. There is no problems with locking accounts, transactions fees are really low and you can pay your phone, internet or tv bill with it (along with countless of other services). Cards to put money in to account are sold in every kiosk. Security is better too, if you require they send you one-time auth sms or you can have keyfiles to login.

Although this may be interesting, a little financial homework is required. wmtransfer.com domain is registered by SMP Bank, Moscow. From Moody's bank rating service, [smpbank.com]

...SMP Bank's currently limited franchise (which is in Moody's view to a substantial extent reliant on the bank's shareholders), high credit risk concentrations, low diversification of
the bank's funding base and potentially volatile profitability

. [google.com]

AS “SMP Bank” (until 17 June 2008 AS “Multibanka” – the Bank) was incorporated in the Republic of Latvia as a joint stock company “Multibanka” in 1994, in Riga and is licensed as a bank offering a wide range of financial services to enterprises and individuals. The address of the Bank’s registered
office is Elizabetes iela 57, Riga, Latvia. The Bank has a branch in Liepaja and 12 offices in Riga, an
office in Ventspils and Olaine, two offices in Daugavpils and representative offices in Moscow

Once you read the financial statement, disbursement of profits, and this web of bank ownership, do you really want to use wmtranser.com?

SMP Bank has filed all the proper papers and provides the appearance of a bank. But, given that two of the bank council members are kleptocrats [foreignpolicyblogs.com], whether or not SMP Bank is a bank is not the question. Are they any more trustworthy than Paypal?

Agreed. Having been the buyer in a transaction that PayPal froze (which was only resolved quickly because one of the other people who was getting screwed knew one of their VPs), I can't imagine why any nonprofit organization trusts them as far as they can throw them. There are plenty of real credit card processors that don't act like thugs. I would urge Wikileaks to pick one and terminate their relationship with PayPal ASAP.

I stopped using PayPal when they froze thousands of dollars of my assets and started giving away refunds to customers for which I provided valid tracking numbers proving their orders had been delivered. They put me out of business. They made it so it was a nightmare trying to prove they were screwing me because they controlled the records. They started freezing the accounts of my friends and family or anyone they had any reason knew me. Now after several years they have the nerve to send me a bill saying I

paypal is still operating in violation of a court order that states that their terms of service is illegal.

Citation please?

I loathe paypal, and won't use them because of their "terms" - I'd love some hard core reason to show to people who insist on 'sending' me money through them. (Yeah, like I'm gonna give PayPal my bank account information.)

Have you actually tried any of those? Do you do any sort of serious business online?

I've tried a few of those and they all have serious limitations.

From the very article you linked: "No one service can match PayPal alone -- but all of these services exceed PayPal in the customer relations department. With skillful use of two or more of these services, buying and selling on eBay without PayPal is NO problem."

With skillful use of two or more? The more difficult you make it for your customers to order from you the less money your going to make.

From the list you linked to:

Allpay.net -- Recommended for U.K. OnlyBidPay.com -- Out Of Business 2 YearsCertaPay -- Recommended for CANADA OnlyCheckfree -- NOT RECOMMENDEDHyperWALLET -- NOT RECOMMENDEDMoneybookers -- Recommended for ALLNochex -- Recommended for U.K. Residents and Certain OthersOzpay.biz -- Out Of Business 3+ YearsPaymate -- Recommended for Australia & New ZealandProPay -- Recommended for U.S. SellersXoom -- NOT RECOMMENDED

So out of that entire list there are only 2 that will let a US seller sell worldwide and are not listed as "Not Recommended". Moneybrokers and Propay.

I sell software on the internet and I've looked for alternatives to Paypal after having my account frozen.

Moneybrokers wanted some proof or license or something (I don't remember exactly this was years ago) to show that I had the right to sell my software. After a few less than helpful email exchanges I gave up on them.

Paypro, from their website, says you have to pay $60 a year to be able to accept all credit cards and you can only receive $3000 a month. This can be increased with a review of your credit and merchant history (if you have any). You can only accept Visa and $1000 a month with their regular plan.

I guarantee you if you get enough problem transactions any merchant is going to freeze your account and hold your funds for a few months to make sure they don't get screwed.

Very few people, especially smaller sites actually require all the features of paypal, pick one of them that has the features you need and go with it, they are pretty much all better than paypal (with the exception of paymate, not sure why they would be listed there as if anything they are worse than paypal).

Yes. It is too much. As of Thursday [is.gd] our government is owned by the huge corporations. No one there is going to care if individuals are treated correctly or even if corps follow through their contracts.

Did you read Stevens' dissent? Y'know, the thing that would have resulted as precedent had Kennedy voted with Stevens. No? Cause if you had you would have noticed it treated speech strictly as audible noise.

The dissenting opinion being worse does not make the majority opinion a good one, or an improvement over the status quo.

W00T! I've attained the status of right wing troll. Even though, assuming the status of troll is correct, it would be much more proper to label me libertarian troll. This would of course require you to differentiate much more broadly on the political spectrum. After all, there's a reason I don't use liberal as a noun to describe leftist idiots.

"In normal usage then, as now, the term “speech” referred to oral communications by individuals. See, e.g., [various citations]. Given that corporations w

This post makes it extremely evident that you didn't skim or read the opinion. Or go to any in depth legal blog and read their opinion of the opinion. The limits on direct contributions are still in place.

Paypal is just a horrendous disaster area. Just please DO NOT use paypal, either as merchant, or as purchaser. If a service only supports payments by paypal, just tell them that your sorry but you will not buy their service.

+1. I really think the editors jumped the gun putting this through. Most worthwhile stories get submitted to the fire-hose multiple times, so why not wait for a submission that actually gives a bit of background, rather than just linking to a twitter post that was obviously written in the heat of the moment?

In addition to your questions, I'd like to know what PayPal has told them, if anything. It's all well and good to scream, "censorship!", but if this is just a bureaucracy stuff up, then this is not rea

I don't have the answer to your question, but this site [hostingprod.com] suggests their problems may be from not jumping through proper hoops to prove it is a non-profit.

PayPal usually suspends non-profit organisations, because PayPal have to comply with local taxation laws involving the tax exempt status of such organisations, and with the world wide anti-money laundering red tape and bureaucracy.

You end up having to send them details of your charitable status, or, failing that, proof that you have a bank account in the

Back in '99, Digital River was doing electronic software delivery. I love this bit:

"Digital River understands that small business owners need that cash immediately," explains David Heath, CEO of Matrix Games, a computer game company that has worked with Digital River for three years.

Funny, Digital River never paid the company I worked at...at all. They sold hundreds of copies of the software, and didn't send our company a fucking dime. Ever.

The problem is that PayPal walks like a bank, talks like a bank and acts like a bank, but has so far been able to avoid being classified (and therefore regulated) as a bank. I'm not big on regulation, and my solution was to simply not use them anymore, but the FTC should crawl up PayPal's ass with a microscope. I'm pretty sure that's their Porsche in the parking lot...

Paypal's behavious is unacceptable in many ways and it happens to many people.

The most annoying thing is when you couple it to ebay, and anoying buyers file a not-received or not-as-described claim when it's clear they couldn't have received it yet, or you told them it was delayed because you were, say ill. As has happened with me.

The bad thing is that this partly or wholly freezes your business section that depends on that. Unacceptable.

Paypal and Ebay were once pretty good, the former because payments via bank transfer for small amounts internatioanlly were so expensive, but all that is gone now and the fees for large sums are also far too high...

I suggest everyone use bank tranfers in EURO countries. IBAN/BIC payments are free if done with shared-cost.

I doubt this is political. Paypal is notorious for freezing accounts based on some internal drone's mistake or a some programmed tripwire. There are countless horror stories about this: http://www.paypalwarning.com/ http://www.paypalsucks.com/frozen-accounts.shtml When you outsource all your employees and pay them 5 cents an hour or whatever slave wage they pay foreign workers, you get what you pay for.

If it is political, then Paypal, as an organization is of unfathomable stupidity.

In addition to that, they have a history of requiring personal information from people (due in large part to US law)

I believe it's time for an alternate, non-US based payment processor to take the place of paypal, the problem is there are so many to choose from. I like pecunix for their security (and the fact they aren't US based.. and use a market-maker approach, which helps to create competition in the exchange rates)

But what about others? how come we're held hostage to paypal when other systems exist?

I believe it's time for an alternate, non-US based payment processor to take the place of paypal

I agree, I have a very rich uncle in Nigeria that has a large sum of money and we need a bank account to get this up and running. If you don't mind posting you full name, DOB, SSN and bank account info then we will get started right away.

We'll gladly pay you $40,000,000US for the inconvenience and helping us out!!

I'd like to see some indication of what prompted Paypal to do this. Not that it would make a lot of difference, but "because we could" would lead to a different attitude on my part than "because they were a source of malware that kept making unauthorized deposits into their account."

Not that I think either of those is likely to be their public explanation.

...is to empty the account every day. There is no sense in keeping any amount of money within their graps as they have shown time and time again they will freeze access without real cause or warning.

I was part of the collective to buy i-Opener [wikipedia.org] machines from the failed Netpliance company. We used Paypal to collect fund from participants as that seemed to be the best way at the moment... How wrong we were... Paypal froze access to the account once it had accumulated enough money for them to be profitable to draw interest from. Of course they did NOT block payment into the account, just access to the funds. They had no real reason to freeze the account and ignored their own rules in both freezing and unblocking the account. They just sat on the money for a month or two, drawing interest from it. When they finally unblocked the account - again without giving any reason whatsoever - the deal with Netpliance had almost bounced.

Paypal is not a bank. Don't treat it as a bank. Don't entrust them with your money. Don't give them access to a debit account, only to a credit card.

Paypal, in short, can not be trusted. Use it at your own peril, only use credit cards so you can reverse the transaction. Never ever accumulate any real amount of money on a Paypal account.

...is to empty the account every day. There is no sense in keeping any amount of money within their graps as they have shown time and time again they will freeze access without real cause or warning.

Also, clean out your bank account. They have the right to go in and take money back out of your bank account. In some cases they can even overdraft you, so make sure you do not have overdraft "protection."

Stop trolling. I have been hit when they released debit cards for the first time. Getting a -$200 balance for just a few under $5 purchase made me scream, but it was clearly listed in the fine print and the "fees and schedule's" document. I keep track now and haven't had an overdraft since.

As long as you have a balance in the bank you have the right to go to that bank and take out all the money and close the account. Unless a COURT ORDER was obtained to free

This is really the fault of the person who decided to keep their assets in a PayPal account. And this isn't the first time? Well, they just don't learn do they.

PayPal can freeze accounts for any number of reasons, of which very few have to do with the owner of the account. If someone pays you with a stolen card or from an account that is suspected to have been compromised, that can trigger a freeze. Their support is notoriously bad, and their instructions for re-enabling your account are always overcomplicated.

Treat PayPal like the liquor store down the street that sells money orders and does Western Union wires. Sometimes they're a necessary evil to get money from point A to B. But you sure as hell don't keep your retirement money and the cash assets of your business in the store's cash register.

My horror story with Paypal starts many years ago. I had a personal account with them since something like the late 90s, and never once had an issue with them. That was before I went into business for myself, and converted the account over to a business account around the year 2000. What a mistake.

Now, let me just state the following:

- We sold books, novels, and prints.
- We sold works that were NOT adult.
- We sold works that we clearly had the copyright on.
- We were an independant publisher.

I learned oneday that the account had been closed due to a violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. Well, we were in the business of self publishing, things like science fiction novels and fantasy books. We sold online through our own website and through Amazon.com. I contacted Paypal and got a nice lady on the phone who went over our online web site with me on the phone and could not find what would have been a violation. So the account was re-activated...

Oh, then a few months later same thing. Account closed. This time with this message...

In accordance with PayPal's User Agreement and Acceptable Use Policy, we have closed your account. Your funds may be held for 180 days from the date of your last transaction. After 180 days, you will be able to access your funds by requesting an online bank transfer or, if applicable, a check from PayPal. Please update your address or bank information as we cannot be held responsible for checks issued to an incorrect address. We do ask that you please remove reference(s) to PayPal from your site.

I tried for over a month to get the account back in good standing, but was constantly told that the decision was final and there was nothing I could do. We sold everything on our main website through Amazon.com also (who never had any issue with the books we printed), and they also accepted Paypal as a payment method. Still to this day I have not been told a reason, nor given any information on why this action was taken. We simply gave up on Paypal and converted the site over to a real merchant account.

3 years ago I sold the company and the assets to another publishing firm. I started a new enterprise under a new LLC and opened a Paypal account again. No problems, no issues. Oh, I must have been an idiot to think Paypal was not going to do it to me again...

Well, my new account is now closed. It seems that Paypal has not blocked the company from using the account, but they did blacklist me. As soon as we went in to convert the account over to a business account I entered my SSN and wham! Account closed due to the original violation from over 3 years ago.

Now, I was under the assumption in the United Stated that you could not blacklist a person from your business unless there was a dam good legal reason. And why won't they tell me what in the world I did to violate their user agreement? Its like being tried, convicted, and sentenced without as much as a ray of hope to prove your not guilty.

I had a service rep fom Paypal (a manager) go over our new website (we sell clothing) and could not find a single thing that could possible violate any policies from Paypal, nor could he find any reason for this decision. But it is final, and over with.

To make a long story short, I am now blacklisted from ever using Paypal again. No reason, no explanation, no way of proving that I am not guilty, and no way to do anything about it. It has been, to this day, the most horrible experience I have ever gone through. I kept getting the impression from Paypal that I was some sort of pornographer. I feel ashamed and tarnished by this decision, and will have to deal with it for the rest of my life.

I personally recommend to anyone who asks me to stay away from Paypal. NEVER use this company, as you have NO protection under law from any harm they cause you or your company.

Get a real merchant account. With a merchant account you deal directly with the credit card companies and

PayPal is a business and they can choose who they want as a customer. Evidently they don't like you. There is no legal recourse in the US and there probably isn't in Europe either. When the government can dictate who a business has to serve, it is time to find another business to be in quickly.

A business can simply choose not to do business with you at any time for any reason, even a secret one.

Conversely, a potential customer can choose not to do business with Paypal at any time for any reason, or even for no reason whatsoever. The fact that Paypal terminates accounts arbitrarily and confiscates balances arbitrarily with no right of appeal is a damn good reason not to do business with them, regardless of whether or not they are acting legally. So I see nothing wrong with avoiding Paypal, or recommending that others avoid Paypal, or explaining why doing business with Paypal is a bad idea -- which is exactly what the GP did.

both of which, used to be a Luxembourg SARL, Luxembourg allows bearer shares.

Under the Swiss-EU accords, judgements obtained under EU law, in member countries,are enforcible in Switzerland and thus in Kanton Bern. You can assume they speakEN DE FR IT, but if you want to give legal notice do it in one of the Swiss officiallanguages ie DE FR IT

Thus I suggest you write to the Geshaftsleiter (Ebay|PayPal) at the above address.

Depending on whether or not square [squareup.com] allows its service to be used by websites in addition to the physical swipe of the card, then Square could be going right for PayPal's jugular. Of course there are other variables too - sign up process, fees, etc.

we are sure that we will get to the money at some point in time. Direct banking transfers generally are much better for us, as that prevents this issue from happening. If you can reverse it, and want to transfer directly, its fine by us. But cant say how much of a hassel that is.

Thanks for the support and the solidarity!

WikiLeaks

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 11:46:47PM +0000, Arancaytar wrote:> > Hello,> >> > I donated to you via Wau-Holland (using Paypal) on Jan 19. Should I> > attempt to reverse this payment in order to make a bank transfer> > directly (and is there any chance of that working)?> >> > Regards,> >> > --> > Arancaytar

PayPal should and needs to be put on oversight from a bank regulator. What it does cannot be left un-regulated as it is today. Abuse of this of part of PayPal is all too common. Use google to find more examples.

GoogleCash also needs to follow under the same rules as PayPal. However I am yet to hear of this type of case from GoogleCash as I do with Paypal.

Paypal and any other donation service needs to be used as a conduit only. Only enough money needs to be kept in the conduit to keep it active.

All other moneys are swept daily. And placed in normal operations, excess moneys need to be dealt with in order to help defeat single bank actions. Preferably under whatever shells you need..

If you are at all political, multiple conduits need to have already been investigated, and ready to be set-up in a single days notice.

Merchant accounts are NOT that expensive.

They are in talks to change the laws in Iceland. Surely they have somebody bright enough to come up with a way not to get fucked over by paypal again. They should simply not have access to enough cash to take you down.

I considered supported Wikileaks - until they pulled their "we have money to operate, but we're shutting down until we get more" stunt. They don't get another dime from me, as they've proved they can't be trusted.

I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear. Weeks or months will pass without any of these phishing attempts landing in my in box/spam box. Then I make a PayPal purchase. Starting within about an hour and continuing for the next week or two weeks, the e-mails start. This has happened seven or eight times now over a two year period.

That could be viewed as flamebait, but you raise a valid point, so I'd like to offer a valid response.
Wikileak's account was not suspended because they were convicted by any government of violating any particular law. They were convicted by PayPal itself, in the court of PayPal, in a manner that does not resemble any system.