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Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Originally Posted by d.frizzell

Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

I am glad this thread has brought out these views.

For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums. For me I learn by questioning. I question like I am on the outside looking in. No matter what the philosophy is, one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better. That is where the "successful" definition comes in (however you want to measure it).
Now some may say they have nothing to prove to me and don't have to defend what they do or say. That is fine and you absolutely have that right, but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.
My request to have whose share who have hives that are treatment free for 3-5 years is a genuine desire to guage who/how many are out there. Deepdown I want to believe that TFB is the way to go, but I have doubts. Why? Because we don't live that way. What I am learning is that we are trying to domesticate an undomesticateable (is that a word) insect. That is a tough mind shift to make. We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?

Defending what one does is never fun. But sometimes it is neccessary, especially if you are bucking the status quo. And guess what? TFB is bucking!

Last edited by bbrowncods; 11-08-2012 at 12:56 AM.
Reason: run on sentence

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Originally Posted by d.frizzell

Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Question, yes of course we must ask question, I agree BUT
Proof? If you go back and read all the wealth of excellent information posted by experienced (and successful) TFB on this forum and others I think the proof is simply there. If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?
Defend? Why? It's works! healthy, happy bees!!YEAH!!
With all due respect I think you are looking for proof that it doesn't work.
For me, I can see that it is working, I am hungry for information, so tell me how, show me how, if it works for you, it can work for me! I know it is not easy, I know there will be some failures, but I WANT to be there! I refuse to use chemicals on my bees or my garden - and my garden grows.
TFB is bucking? Maybe so, who cares? If it doesn't work, why are there so many TFB out there?
Donna
Nova Scotia

Originally Posted by bbrowncods

I am glad this thread has brought out these views.

For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums. For me I learn by questioning. I question like I am on the outside looking in. No matter what the philosophy is, one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better. That is where the "successful" definition comes in (however you want to measure it).
Now some may say they have nothing to prove to me and don't have to defend what they do or say. That is fine and you absolutely have that right, but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.
My request to have whose share who have hives that are treatment free for 3-5 years is a genuine desire to guage who/how many are out there. Deepdown I want to believe that TFB is the way to go, but I have doubts. Why? Because we don't live that way. What I am learning is that we are trying to domesticate an undomesticateable (is that a word) insect. That is a tough mind shift to make. We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?

Defending what one does is never fun. But sometimes it is neccessary, especially if you are bucking the status quo. And guess what? TFB is bucking!

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

i think it's important to understand that treatment free beekeeping goes way beyond just not putting chemicals into the hive.

there are a lot of facets to keeping bees healthy, and a lot of variations on the theme.

if you haven't already, check out michael bush's website or order his book. spend some time reading what randy oliver's work has shown. be prepared to learn from your own experiences, (read here mistakes).

from what i have seen myself, it is very possible to achieve maintaining healthy colonies that don't require, or rarely require, a treatment intervention. especially for the hobbiest who has the time to invest in each individual hive.

as i have said, i view not using treatments as the end result of good solid beekeeping practices, rather than a means to that end. there are other views of course.....

journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Originally Posted by squarepeg

bbrowncods,

if you haven't already, check out michael bush's website or order his book. spend some time reading what randy oliver's work has shown. be prepared to learn from your own experiences, (read here mistakes).

If I had bbrowncod's APO I could send him and his buddys back issues of Bee Culture and American Bee Journal. Maybe I will send some to a CAV Unit Commander in Afghanistan who I send honey to.

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?

It's a start, but any hive can survive for 2 years, or a bit more without treatment. That is roughly the amount of time it takes Varroa to kill a hive.

The scores of people that say "I'm a first year no treatment beekeeper and my bees are doing well" are only creating noise that muddies the equation. It's really too early to tell.

Given that a lot of "no treatment" beekeepers inadvertently buy pre-treated hives, I suggest that a hive would need to go untreated for at least 2 years, and probably 3 before it could be considered a successful example of no treatment.

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Originally Posted by bbrowncods

We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?

Bees are hive minded insects, with a very short lifespan and and an incredible propensity for adaptation. Just like a cow. That's the thing though. Nobody is breeding for wolf resistant sheep because they're too busy breeding for fat heavy wooly sheep. Natural sheep are wolf resistant. So are wildebeests and water buffalo and other animals similar to the domesticated ones. I think of treatments kind of like caffeine. At first, it works, gives you a boost. But use it every day and in a month, you'll need it just to be able to meet the level you had naturally before you started using it. Go off and you'll crash for a while, but eventually you'll be back to your norm. It's better just to stay off. Caffeine is much more innocuous than an antibiotic.

Originally Posted by squarepeg

there are a lot of facets to keeping bees healthy, and a lot of variations on the theme.

All of which should be handled by the bees and their flora and fauna. That's the fundamental difference.

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

Donna,
First, I am just a novice. Four years ago I was going to start but found out that my city did not allow apiaries in the city limits. Then in 2011 they rescended the law, but I knew I was going to be deployed in 2012. So I have been on again off again for 3-4 years now. I am at the point of making some critical decisions now that I am going to be returning in February. So here we go.

Originally Posted by d.frizzell

Question, yes of course we must ask question, I agree BUT
Proof? If you go back and read all the wealth of excellent information posted by experienced (and successful) TFB on this forum and others I think the proof is simply there. If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?
Defend? Why? It's works! healthy, happy bees!!YEAH!!

This can be said of treated hives as well. There are even more of those out there and the information/industry behind them is well established. TFB flies in the face of that jugernaught. There are those who are not doing well, no matter where you look. So which path is the right path? As a novice you have to sift through the rubble and find nuggets.

Originally Posted by d.frizzell

With all due respect I think you are looking for proof that it doesn't work.
For me, I can see that it is working, I am hungry for information, so tell me how, show me how, if it works for you, it can work for me! I know it is not easy, I know there will be some failures, but I WANT to be there! I refuse to use chemicals on my bees or my garden - and my garden grows.

I look for the cracks in the logic. I do that by asking pointed questions of those who are saying "My way works". Because everyone says there way works, you have to figure out who has been doing it more than a year or two. Then establish what they are doing that makes their operation work for them so that I can replicate it. It is called learning form others mistakes so I don't have to start from scratch. I am sure I will make enough mistakes without having to start from ground zero.

Originally Posted by d.frizzell

TFB is bucking? Maybe so, who cares? If it doesn't work, why are there so many TFB out there?
Donna
Nova Scotia

Back at you. If it doesn't work, why are there so many treated hives out there?
Don't answer that. Do you see my point?

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

If I had bbrowncod's APO I could send him and his buddys back issues of Bee Culture and American Bee Journal. Maybe I will send some to a CAV Unit Commander in Afghanistan who I send honey to.

Thank you! That would be nice. I was going to subscribe when I got back.

I have read MB's site. Twice! I am ordering his book once I decide either the hardback or the volumes.

When I listened to his video (post #1) it really through me for a loop. Hence this 90 post thread! He doesn't come across as hard core on his website as he did in the video (at least to me). Maybe I just didn't grasp it until I heard him say it!

So it has been quite a leap for me from what the main stream teaches. I have been studing the Virginia Master Beekeeper Program and it is all about treating. So imagine my surprise when I start coming across those who eschew that philosophy.

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

All of which should be handled by the bees and their flora and fauna. That's the fundamental difference.

the facets i had in mind are those the bees, flora, and fauna don't handle.

i.e. the type of artificial housing we choose to put them into, the frame manipulations we choose to do, the taking and giving of resources we choose to do, the altered diet we may choose to put them on, ect.

i don't think we give enough consideration to these extrinsic factors and what effect they may have on the colony. it is why i don't think it's prudent to compare our kept colonies to feral ones, and why i think it is in some ways unfair to ask them to 'handle on their own' some of the challenges that may come along from time to time.

journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

There is nothing mutually exclusive about moving bees and being treatment free. Heck we could easily do it but choose instead to reduce fall mite loads when the bees are brood less so that we have plenty of strong bees coming out of the winter for Almond pollination and The following seasons honey crop tests free of any mite treatment residues.We aren't doing anything radically different than those who constantly split their bees to stay ahead of the mite load. If we did that long term chances are we would have trouble maintaining our number of strong hives but then I really don't know that for sure.