Here is a section of one of JLA's English works that talks about the different "rainbow bodies"

At the time of attaining the fourth vision, the yogin reaches the Rainbow Body ('ja' lus) of which four modalities are described in the texts: 1. the Body of the Great Transfer ('pho ba chen po), 2. the Great Rainbow Body ('ja' lus chen po), 3. the Small Transfer ('pho ba chung ngu) and 4. the Small Rainbow Body ('ja' lus chung ngu).

This seems to be a translation of Dudjom Lingpa's description of the rainbow body, I skipped through most of the site because it was giving togal instruction publicly but this portion is relevant:

Those having superior faculties are liberated as a great transference embodiment, extending infinitely into the all-pervasive dharmakaya, like water merging with water, or space merging with space. Those having medium faculties attain buddhahood as a great rainbow body, like a rainbow vanishing into the sky. When the ground clear light arises, for those having inferior faculties the colors of the rainbow spread forth from the absolute nature, and their material bodies decrease in size until finally they vanish as rainbow bodies, leaving not even a trace of their aggregates behind. That is called the small rainbow body. When the ground clear light arises, the material bodies of some people decrease in size for up to seven days, then finally only the residue of their hair and nails is left behind. The dissolution of the body into minute particles is called the small transference. For those of superior faculties this dissolution of the body into minute particles may occur even during the Breakthrough.

The Small Transference (atomic body) actually is not a "rainbow body" although rainbows may manifest when it happens.

Jyoti, just curious, have you actually received transmission of togal teachings?

Jyoti wrote:If you don't care to translate, then the point is not make.

Guys, you should learn a couple more languages. If you don't read French, German or Italian, you miss a lot of dharma works that do not exist in English or that were done decades before they appeared in English...

The reason I point to the rigpawiki article is because it agreed with all that I have studied about the rainbow body and light body.

But most apparently, you haven't studied Longchenpa's Theg-mchog-mdzod.

Also I don't relied exclusively on english source for these information.

But can you rely on tibetan sources?

This is not contradicting the rigpawiki article.

Sure not, but since this rigpawiki article is mostly wrong, that makes a gigantic difference.

I have read all of Dudjom Lingpa's specific collections on Togal and rainbow body from chinese translations.

Ok, then you know the text I am referring to. And you realize that this contradicts what you assert. Honestly I doubt you read that text or if this is the case, I have reservation about the chinese translation.

For english source, page 204 of the book: Bonpo Dzogchen Teaching has the descriptions for rainbow body.

Well the source in french I referred to has the description of the entire path and process that related to the RB. You won't find more in western sources. But regarding differences between atomic and rainbow bodies, the Theg-mchog-mdzod is the best source and it contradicts what you have understood from chinese sources.

Jyoti wrote: I have read all of Dudjom Lingpa's specific collections on Togal and rainbow body from chinese translations.Jyoti

I'm curious who is making these texts available in Chinese, and where they are published, etc. I can't read Chinese, I'm just a Dudjom geek.

Some of the Dzogchen texts of Dudjom Lingpa are said to be quite challenging to translate into English, even by the most senior practitioner/translators. Consequently there are some well-intentioned, but very bad, translations out there.

Sherlock wrote:Jyoti, just curious, have you actually received transmission of togal teachings?

Only from the informations I collected. The light body itself is not specific to the dzogchen tradition, for example, bodhidharma of ch'an tradition is known to have not left a body behind. He is known to look at wall for many years during his retreat in cave, such a practice is not much different from togal, though the latter may have different postures, etc. Also in Doa-jia (taoism), they are numerous mentioning of such disappearance of the body during death. This is the reason, I have attempt to study this phenomena further from the togal teaching.

Then you should definitely receive transmission from a qualified master.

The light body itself is not specific to the dzogchen tradition,

Yes it is because what we are referring to here is the result of the path of Thögel.

for example, bodhidharma of ch'an tradition is known to have not left a body behind.

You are misunderstanding the fact of not leaving aggregates behind (phung-po lhag-med) and rainbow body. There are some rainbow bodies with remains behind.

He is known to look at wall for many years during his retreat in cave, such a practice is not much different from togal,

Oh it is entirely different from Thögel. This statement simply means you don't know how Thögel is being practiced.

though the latter may have different postures, etc.

It has much more than that, actually 42 key-points which you won't ever find in Chan. Chan is sutra-based, it lacks key-points. All that happens during Thogel is also linked to the four initiations that are lacking in Chan. So comparing both tradition is just a play of the mind, it has no real basis except ignorance.

Also in Doa-jia (taoism), they are numerous mentioning of such disappearance of the body during death. This is the reason, I have attempt to study this phenomena further from the togal teaching.

Since there is nothing like Thögel in Taoism, then it means you don't understand the purpose of Thogel, its practice and fruit.

Jyoti wrote: I have read all of Dudjom Lingpa's specific collections on Togal and rainbow body from chinese translations.Jyoti

I'm curious who is making these texts available in Chinese, and where they are published, etc. I can't read Chinese, I'm just a Dudjom geek.

Some of the Dzogchen texts of Dudjom Lingpa are said to be quite challenging to translate into English, even by the most senior practitioner/translators. Consequently there are some well-intentioned, but very bad, translations out there.

A little mistake there, I have the Dudjom Lingpa's Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism in the Tibetan to chinese translated version, this give complete historical account of rainbow bodies, I agreed on the difficulty of translation here.

The specific collections on Togal in chinese were of Kunga Rinpoche's work.

mutsuk wrote:Then you should definitely receive transmission from a qualified master.

To me a qualified master for togal should be one who attained the 3rd vision, I would take the opinion of master who didn't practice togal nor manifest at least the 3rd vision as mere book opinion only. So up to now, I still can't find such a master.

You are misunderstanding the fact of not leaving aggregates behind (phung-po lhag-med) and rainbow body. There are some rainbow bodies with remains behind.

It is understood those with some remains is sign of rainbow body, but the case of bodhidharma is light body, as there is no remains.

Oh it is entirely different from Thögel. This statement simply means you don't know how Thögel is being practiced.

It has much more than that, actually 42 key-points which you won't ever find in Chan. Chan is sutra-based, it lacks key-points. All that happens during Thogel is also linked to the four initiations that are lacking in Chan. So comparing both tradition is just a play of the mind, it has no real basis except ignorance.

If you supposed togal is really about those standard postures, gazes, breathing, etc. then you are deluded.

Since there is nothing like Thögel in Taoism, then it means you don't understand the purpose of Thogel, its practice and fruit.

Then you don't know dao-jia at all, but it is understandable, since you cannot read chinese, and all the dao-jia texts are in chinese, and almost impossible to be translated in english, due to all the mystical terms.

Is Longchenpa's Yangthig enough? I used to read the chinese version over and over.

Ok, then you know the text I am referring to. And you realize that this contradicts what you assert. Honestly I doubt you read that text or if this is the case, I have reservation about the chinese translation.

Actually I was refering to Kunga Rinpoche's collection, he is a chinese lama and write directly in chinese.

As for Tibetan translation in general, I find Tibetan to chinese translation is better in term of accuracy. This is because Tibetan buddhist terminology share a common standard with chinese buddhist terminology, so tibetan translators has little choice in term of chinese words other than the standard terminology of buddhism that were used on both sides.

Jyoti wrote:To me a qualified master for togal should be one who attained the 3rd vision, I would take the opinion of master who didn't practice togal nor manifest at least the 3rd vision as mere book opinion only. So up to now, I still can't find such a master.

Then you should keep looking because there are several qualified lamas who teach Thogel and have taught specific Thogel trainings to their disciples. You are in no position to check whether or not these lamas have reached the 3rd Vision. They would not tell you anyway.

It is understood those with some remains is sign of rainbow body, but the case of bodhidharma is light body, as there is no remains.

No, you clearly do not understand what it is about here. You have rainbow bodies with and without remains. What Bodhidharma reached is not comparable.

If you supposed togal is really about those standard postures, gazes, breathing, etc. then you are deluded.

Thögel is entirely based on those 42 key-points which are described as its "specific richness" (khyad-nor). You don't have this anywhere else than in Thogel teachings.

Then you don't know dao-jia at all, but it is understandable, since you cannot read chinese, and all the dao-jia texts are in chinese, and almost impossible to be translated in english, due to all the mystical terms.

Then if you think that there are some Thogel teachings in Daoism, it means you don't know or understand what Thogel is about. I have asked some of the best authorities on Taosim about this and showed them some of JL's translations and all concluded that there are no such things in Taoism.

Jyoti wrote:Is Longchenpa's Yangthig enough? I used to read the chinese version over and over.

Which Longchenpa's Yangtik? He wrote 3 collections of them. You should read the Theg-mchog-mdzod directly into Tibetan or French and you'll see that what you described based on the rigpawiki link is not accurate at all and misleading.

As for Tibetan translation in general, I find Tibetan to chinese translation is better in term of accuracy. This is because Tibetan buddhist terminology share a common standard with chinese buddhist terminology, so tibetan translators has little choice in term of chinese words other than the standard terminology of buddhism that were used on both sides.

I am referring you to the tibetan directly. I have huge reservation about translations into Chinese from any language because Chinese is very inaccurate. You should learn tibetan directly or access properly translated versions. On this subject of "chinese translations" in general and in particuler on their inadequacy to carry on proper meaning, you should read that book:Jungnok Park: How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the Way to China, Equinox Publishing, 2012. This puts a definitive end to any claim of valid understanding of Buddhist thought in general in Chinese language...

Last edited by mutsuk on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

To go back to the subject of that thread, I remember (if my memory is not deluding me) that there was a paper in an early issue of Bod-ljong nang-bstan where the author discussed Byang-chub rdo-rje's Rainbow Body and also mentioned that of his daughter sometime soon after. I will try to lay my hands back on that article.

As for Tibetan translation in general, I find Tibetan to chinese translation is better in term of accuracy. This is because Tibetan buddhist terminology share a common standard with chinese buddhist terminology, so tibetan translators has little choice in term of chinese words other than the standard terminology of buddhism that were used on both sides.

I am referring you to the tibetan directly. I have huge reservation about translations into Chinese from any language because Chinese is very inaccurate. You should learn tibetan directly or access properly translated versions. On this subject of "chinese translations" in general and in particuler on their inadequacy to carry on proper meaning, you should read that book:Jungnok Park: How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the Way to China, Equinox Publishing, 2012. This puts a definitive end to any claim of valid understanding of Buddhist thought in general in Chinese language...

Interesting topic, I made a new thread about this here if you'd care to share anything from the book.

mutsuk wrote:Then you should keep looking because there are several qualified lamas who teach Thogel and have taught specific Thogel trainings to their disciples. You are in no position to check whether or not these lamas have reached the 3rd Vision. They would not tell you anyway.

I'm not in a hurry to find one, so just leave it to the right juncture.

No, you clearly do not understand what it is about here. You have rainbow bodies with and without remains. What Bodhidharma reached is not comparable.

Leaving the minimum of nails is the required sign of rainbow body, there is no exception. The reason is nails are not a conscious part of the body and so they cannot be absorb into consciousness. Whereas in the light body, the transformation is not similar to the dissolution of the four elements on the relative dimension at time of death, but it is the exhaustion of all phenomena (dharmas) from the basis prior to the dying process.

Thögel is entirely based on those 42 key-points which are described as its "specific richness" (khyad-nor). You don't have this anywhere else than in Thogel teachings.

As in any teaching, you should be able to distinguish between means and principle, within the teaching of togal, they are means and principle. Means are those posture, gazes and breathing method. The principle is the reason behind the working of togal. If the principle is understood, then those means are provisional, one can use whatever is most suitable, adaptable and convenient, such as just sitting normally with nothing special.

Then if you think that there are some Thogel teachings in Daoism, it means you don't know or understand what Thogel is about. I have asked some of the best authorities on Taosim about this and showed them some of JL's translations and all concluded that there are no such things in Taoism.

I can give you some hint, in dao-jia there is teaching called internal and external pill, the practice of internal pill has element similar to the unification of the mother and son light of dzogchen. Don't simply dismissed anything without having personally study it.

Jyoti wrote:I'm not in a hurry to find one, so just leave it to the right juncture.

You need be in a hurry, or you haven't reflected enough on the four mind-turnings.

Leaving the minimum of nails is the required sign of rainbow body, there is no exception.

So say you. But you don't understand that there are rainbow bodies with remains and others without. There are four kinds of rainbow bodies.

Whereas in the light body, the transformation is not similar to the dissolution of the four elements on the relative dimension at time of death, but it is the exhaustion of all phenomena (dharmas) from the basis prior to the dying process.

You are messed up in the vocabulary. 'Od-lus is the classical expression used in Dzogchen Tantras to refer to 'ja'-lus. Then you have to distinguish 'od-lus/'ja'-lus from rdul-lus (atom body). Once this is clear for you, then you should understand the process and the four levels at stake in the obtainment of these 4 rainbow bodies. Saying things like "there is no exception", etc. means you haven't read enough and don't know what these rainbow bodies are and how they are obtained.

As in any teaching, you should be able to distinguish between means and principle, within the teaching of togal, they are means and principle. Means are those posture, gazes and breathing method. The principle is the reason behind the working of togal. If the principle is understood, then those means are provisional, one can use whatever is most suitable, adaptable and convenient, such as just sitting normally with nothing special.

The principle of Thogel is to reach a complete familiarization with the rtsal of Rigpa culminating in the 4th vision. This is entirely based on the 42 key-points. Lacking those key-points (starting with the six basic ones), you won't contemplate the rtsal of Rigpa at all. That's as basic as that. Furthermore, you have to know that reaching such a rainbow body is not an aim, it's a sign.

I can give you some hint, in dao-jia there is teaching called internal and external pill, the practice of internal pill has element similar to the unification of the mother and son light of dzogchen. Don't simply dismissed anything without having personally study it.

If you are referring to stuff like Neidan (內丹)and other techniques in used in the Longmen (龙门)and other schools, then it's clear you don't understand what Thogel is about. Or maybe you'd care being more explicit?

mutsuk wrote:I am referring you to the tibetan directly. I have huge reservation about translations into Chinese from any language because Chinese is very inaccurate. You should learn tibetan directly or access properly translated versions. On this subject of "chinese translations" in general and in particuler on their inadequacy to carry on proper meaning, you should read that book:Jungnok Park: How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the Way to China, Equinox Publishing, 2012. This puts a definitive end to any claim of valid understanding of Buddhist thought in general in Chinese language...

In term of conventional matters not related to the dharma, such as historical events, biographies and so on, the chinese language has its weakness I agree. But any buddhist scholars can confirmed, buddhist sanskrit has being preserved in the chinese buddhist terminologies, any buddhist material being translated into its buddhist sanskrit counterpart of the chinese buddhist terminologies bear doctrinal significance. Similarly anything being translated from the chinese source based on such chinese buddhist terminologies bear doctrinal significance.

Jyoti wrote: But any buddhist scholars can confirmed, buddhist sanskrit has being preserved in the chinese buddhist terminologies, any buddhist material being translated into its buddhist sanskrit counterpart of the chinese buddhist terminologies bear doctrinal significance.

Then how come this is not the opinion of sanskritists or tibetologists ? But always that of sinologists... Your view is biaised.

Similarly anything being translated from the chinese source based on such chinese buddhist terminologies bear doctrinal significance.

Read Jungnok Park's book : he was Korean, knew Chinese and Japanese as if they were his mother languages and became more than proficient in Sanskrit and Pali.