Dear mrducky the original discussion was about President Obama being a conservative. By American standards he is not, being pro war is not conservatism neither is being anti gay or anti minority's or any of the other stereotypical features you described.

According to "The Freedom Index" for 2012, an index that bases a persons conservatism off of the United States constitution Ron Paul is either the only or one of the few that are 100% conservative.

President Obama I believe placed a 25% you said several times that you will take the supreme courts opinion over Elrics, what you fail to remember is that 4 of the justices disagreed with Obamacare completely! Anyways, I will take the professional political science majors from the U.S that wrote the index over your word, and there definition of conservatism is much different than yours.

According to "The Freedom Index" for 2012, an index that bases a persons conservatism off of the United States constitution

So conservativism is a purely US construct since it is based on the US construct alone? What? Get out of here. Also can you link me to which freedom index you are referring to?http://thefreedomindex.com/about-us/This one appears to be completely made up of mathematics based majors for their committee and is an actual freedom index.My bad. You were referring to http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Fre ... _112-2.pdfwhich is an arbitrary designation of what is constitutional and what isnt. Factor in them saying that raising the debt ceiling is unconstitutional and ronald reagan raised it 18 times. It is odd that the poster boy of conservatives is so very unconservative. But really, it is a poor measure of conservatism since

1. Very very obvious it is tailored for the right, not even gonna try and look unbiased and objective. If you wanted a stereotype of conservatives, I would hand you The New American.2. Author/editor not listed, credentials cannot be checked, did they pick these 10 votes arbitrarily or was there actually weight behind the decisions?3. Justification for constitutional/unconstitutional is very scarce and limited. Often, they give the position of unconstitutional when in fact the constitution had no say regarding the federal governments limit in that area (healthcare, drawing on that supreme court ruling, it is constitutional)4. They defined it as following the constitution. No reasoning shown, just "I said it, that is that"5. Oooh, some digging, new american is part of the JBS which is described as "the radical right wing".

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The society opposed aspects of the 1960s civil rights movement and claimed the movement had communists in important positions.

yeahhhh, I am not going to trust these guys, even if you do. They come off as:Nutters.

They have an entire section dedicated to conspiracy theories.

Conservatives or traditionalists support traditional values [this is the general definition that is more or less true, certainly better than your defintion]. In this fashion, it is the opposite of liberalism aka progressive. So this whole anti-women, anti-gays, etc. matches the ideal of returning to a time when they were social outcasts rather than accepted members of society who can vote, live and work and be treated as part of the social norm. Back to the good ol' days.

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what you fail to remember is that 4 of the justices disagreed with Obamacare completely

Overall ruling was in favour, this is your justice system at work here, it is constitutional. And I will take the Supreme court's ruling over a couple political science majors.

In short, Elric gave me 3 "pillars" of modern conservatism. Liberty, Order, Law. I demonstrated that Obama fulfilled parts of these 3 pillars. Ergo, Obama is 'conservative' but not the most conservative. My logic is there for the world to see and I dont need to rely on extremist nor fringe views to hold them up.

Also the original discussion is why Obama isnt conservative as well as "Obama being the worst President". Elric threw a bunch of points at me. Ive dropped the valid points down to 3-4 contentious ones. So this is all still on topic.

Yes I agree by American Standards, I would consider Obama liberal/progressive. I think he is actually progressive personally, but we cant pass judgements on that. What ducky said. Europe's liberalism, is EXTREME LEFT BLAH BLAH in the US. I mean Obama's policies will be considered far right wing in India

BTW I dont support libertarianism or conservatism for that matter. I have only seen racism in those principles. Even Ron Paul accepted donations from white nationalist groups, didnt he?

As for the bail outs - Obama did not create the economic downturn.As for the troops pulling out of wherever - Who sent them in the first place? When Obama took over, he had to take over Bush's *CENSORED* ups.

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