Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

Originally Posted by Ugrateful

HAHAHAHAHAHAHahaahahahahahah, i wish i could hit for 7400 + damage come wotlk and get almost full mana.
From what i have read dude the damage on judgements are a bug and are doing 200% instead of 20%. Nice try though ;D.

I believe the bug you are refering to is actually the 18k Art of War buffed Seal of Command judgement on a stunned target, which certainly is a bug. 7400 is not too unrealistic for wotlk. I believe they buffed our judgement damage so our mana bar simply drains very quickly and then refills very quickly.

As for the calculations... I couldn't find the original link, but I will post all of the variables.

Max Vengence - 15% Damage bonus

Avenging Wrath - 20%

SoC on a stunned target - 100%

Art of War proc - 100%

Bugged 100% Crit damage bonus combined with Rightous Vengence - 115%

Due to the way damage is calculated in WoW, dont trust your own numbers, I implore you to just trust that the crit is real and these are the reasons why.

The nerf I see coming is simply to make it so Art of War will not stack with stunned target SoC. None the less, we will still see judgments taking a far bigger role in our total damage done, and will be a very, very large portion of our mana regen.

As for the calculations... I couldn't find the original link, but I will post all of the variables.

Max Vengence - 15% Damage bonus

Avenging Wrath - 20%

SoC on a stunned target - 100%

Art of War proc - 100%

Bugged 100% Crit damage bonus combined with Rightous Vengence - 115%

Due to the way damage is calculated in WoW, dont trust your own numbers, I implore you to just trust that the crit is real and these are the reasons why.

The nerf I see coming is simply to make it so Art of War will not stack with stunned target SoC. None the less, we will still see judgments taking a far bigger role in our total damage done, and will be a very, very large portion of our mana regen.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

Originally Posted by Ugrateful

Hmm, Lets look at this. You get a chance to do double damage from a seals judgement that is also a chance to melee proc. When you stun and judge seal of Command and have the talent Art of War to do double damage to the target that is stunned. In theory you should have done a crazy amount of damage. Imo just don't make Aw and trinket effects to stack with it. Having Spell Power stack with it is another story.

This is an Awesome talent, however remember back pre bc back before wow was out of beta we had something awesome before and Blizzard replaced it with a crappy seal system.

I'm not saying it isn't overpower and i am not saying it's not going to get nerfed. Just hope to god they don't remove it altogether and replace it with something as shitty as how are seal system is atm in TBC,

I'm not big on Trinkets and Avenging Wrath not stacking with it. A) Because its still gonna be massive number, and B) It's kind of dodging the issue. The issue is that a 17k monster crit off an instant spell is just not right. Avenging Wrath not stacking may reduce this number significantly, but not enough in my opinion. I believe the intended use for this talent was to be able to take advantage of double Seal of Command damage without relying on stuns, not to create monster numbers that send the opposing faction running for the hills because you can and will rape them. I dont want to see this talent removed either, but the way things are working is a sure fired way of that happening.

I'm not a Pally hater, I'm a dedicated one who simply plays other classes. If I was on my Shaman being chased by a Ret Bomb under current guide lines of these talents, I'd be in Ghost Wolf faster than you could blink with an army of earth bind totems behind me.

Call me a coward, but this is like trying to fight time; eventually you will die.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

Originally Posted by Ugrateful

AW is 20% to all damage and 20% to healing. Plus a trinket that adds on more Spell Power. You have to take into consideration atm right now warriors in full BT Loot are walking around with 20k hp. Not to mention Resilience will cut that 17k in half and the chance of someone criting you with it. It's also a chance. It's easy to fix just reduce the chance of it happening. As for it being overpowered ? You are looking at it from a wrong pov. She/He is fighting an npc not a players also i believe they are trying to make it where Art of war works with Judgement of the Wise to help with the Ret paladin's mana issue, not for getting more damage when the target isn't stunned. We got Divine Storm and Cs for that now tied in with soc procs. having to do more damage when the target is stunned isn't the problem. Even for pve it really isn't come Wotlk. We got haste and we will be sharing more gear with Warriors because of Sheath of Light.

Having Art of War working with soc and the + damage off stuns it the synergy with the talents. What you are asking for is a more normalization when the target is stunned and one thing about the paladin is nothing is normalized within it's talents. It's all Procs. Like i said Pre bc to others when cs came out. It won't be Op at 70 when you get your gear. However blizzard nerfed Vengeance and nerfed cs to 10 sec only to change Vengeance back to it's glory with 3 charges and cs back to 6 secs.

I look at this and i see CS all over again. This won't be Op come 80 in your pvp gear it will be balanced. I have to say though have some things stack with it like AW shouldn't and Trinkets however spell power should because of it's scaling nature.

If they nerf Art of War they have to buff Judgment of the Wise to give the paladin that effect of having a meaningful talent that gives us great mana return.

If you look at many of the current videos of Ret Paladins you can clearly see the mana bar draining quickly, then refilling just as quickly. So the buff to Judgements of the Wise is not needed. As for resilience reducing the damage, yeah that's what it's there for, but keep in mind that these guys are level 77 running around in out dated gear, not the newest arena or PvE gear. Expect even bigger numbers.

As for the normalization comments, I said that because that's what blizzard has said! The exact words were, "We are currently working on ways to make Retribution damage feel less random and more controlable." So we can already see Blizz is leaning in my direction.

The point was, that everyone can already see these talents were not meant to stack, it was an oversight that Blizzard is famous for. The goal was to increase the importance of judgements in wotlk, not to LOLONESHOT people. Yeah, yeah, you cant actually one shot, but you can probably instantly kill someone if you time it with your swing timer and then follow it with an instant attack.

This will never make release, and it shouldn't either. The talents are great, but stacking them is obscene.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

Originally Posted by Ugrateful

I Think you over looked rogues before s1 hit.
This isn't an oversight at all the and normalization for the paladin Blizzard was talking about was spells and abilities.

Art of War is chance. If they wanted to make all talents a normalization feel to it they would of started with Soc which they left alone and i hope they will never change. With spells like Seal of Corruption and SoM with Divine Storm that's what will give us our normal flow of damage feel to the spec.

I can understand by seeing crazy crit numbers on a mob you might jump to conclusions about this, however we are not at level 80 and in our first set of session gear enchanted and gemed out. Atm I don't see this being a issue. Until I see the number for it i think it's fine. Rogues were op so where druids when we leveled to 70 so my question is what can't Ret paladins ? Hell even mages fire ones were and look at them now.

I think people see a big crit and they lose there mind. I'm not going to lie i use to be like this till i got my 5th toon to 70. I have 7 70s now of all different classes and spec and i can tell you this will get toned down 3 months after wotlk is released.

The sky isn't falling.

They have already given us an option regarding Seal of Command with Seal of Blood, so it stands to reason that this would not be the 'starting point' at any point in wotlk. What's our other damage mechanism? Hmm, well I guess that would be Judgements, wouldn't it? Meaning this is the next step for normalization. As for "Why cant Ret Paladins?" Why not fix the problem before it begins? The fact is that in TBC we still brought the hurt, now add 17k crits off instant attacks and we bring the end of WoW. Compared to our damage before 17k is huge, and this isnt even factoring in end game gear differnces in damage. 17k may not seem like a lot to a level 80, but it wont be 17k then. The fact is that simply not letting these effects stack would solve a lot of headaches in the future, and our dps is crazy enough as it is. Seen the Ret paladin PvP beta videos? Those dont factor in ZOMG CRITS and we still are raping face out there. Lets not get greedy.

As a final note; Yes, Art of War is a chance proc, but you then control when to use it. This also makes set up for the crit much easier. We're fine without this rediculous combination, so why tempt fate into nerfing it into uselessness when all we have to do is give up one big number when we already beat the hell out of things?

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I never said 17k crits were fine. However allowing art of war stack with stun judgements i believe is. Listen dude hear me out.

Paladins atm and in Wotlk have a heavy cost when it come to casting spells. Holy ones at that and some blessing along side Hands. As a Ret paladin it ways heavy on the solders of the player playing this spec is like the Energizer Bunny starting the fight only to run down a couple of minutes later.

The concept of the Ret Paladin getting burst mana regeneration is a great idea for the spec, however i believe there is a bug when it comes using Aw and trinkets along with stuns. The Ret paladin will always be about burst damage till they change how Seal of Command behaves as a applied seal on the player and the judgement. I believe this is a mathematical error on Blizzards part, but not the error of how
burst mana regeneration would be if it made it into release. This imo it exactly what Ret needs to keep on going.

Sorry to say but that's wrong. It's a 50/50 for Joc to crit when the target is stunned. Their is no 100% guarantee that Joc will crit when judge on that stun target. It does or doesn't. No paladin Ret paladin in there right mind judges Soc unless the target is stunned there is no reason to judge it unless you are swaping seal to apply to yourself and just want to add a bit more damage. Judging a target with Soc does less damage then 1 auto attack from your weapon. Judgement of the Martyr on the other hand with enough Spell Power will do quite a bit of damage and it's always guarantee to do around the same amount of damage every time because of it's nature of the spell and it scaling with spell power.

In Short having the idea of Paladins having a way to get burst mana back is a great idea that will help the class. Having your judgement hitting for 17k before lvl 80 isn't.

Then again we seen this before with Crusader strike hitting for 1700 pre bc, so i wouldn't worry too much. I'm sure there is a error on the math part of the talent when applied to a stunned Joc, but having it not stack would hurt the paladin to much and imo put him right back where he is now in TBC,

That's my 2 cents worth.

If you watch the Ret Paladin videos you see that their mana drains very quickly, then refills quickly. If Judgements of the Wise scales well into level 80 content, which it most likely will, then Mana regen for simply using spells has been solved.

However, having your mana burned to 0 will make you incapable of judging the target, stopping regen. This is why in the other thread I brought up giving Sancitified Wrath the ability to generate mana like Shamanistic Rage.

As for the Art of War comment, you misunderstood what I said.

From what I have seen so far, when Art of War procs it gives you a buff signaling your next Judgement will cause double damage. All I meant by this is that you could wait for this proc, stun, do monster damage and get phat arena lewts. All I meant by this was that even though this ability wont happen often (about every 40 seconds or so) it wont be once in a blue moon.

What I did NOT mean was that it will crit all the time. I have no idea why this even came up.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

However, having your mana burned to 0 will make you incapable of judging the target, stopping regen. This is why in the other thread I brought up giving Sancitified Wrath the ability to generate mana like Shamanistic Rage.

This simply isn't true. Seals cannot be dispelled from us if we have them talented. Seals last their full 30 second duration without being consumed upon a judge. Judgement of the "xx" is FREE from mana cost. So if you've got command up, which you're likely to have, what with it having no way of being dispelled and a long duration, you can simply judge the target with wisdom and get a heap of mana back. This didn't cost you anything.

Bare in mind that you could have stoicism from prot reducing the dispel chance of your magical effects on the enemy too, you will most likely be judging every 8 seconds reapplying wisdom to the target. If the target doesn't want wisdom to be there they are going to have to spend quite a lot of time dispelling to guarantee its removal. Not only this but mana burning you to keep you oom. Oh wait judgement crit, boom 2k mana. Requiring more mana burning, oh he's got wisdom judged on himself again. Not to mention the target might want to spam dispel on you to remove your hands.

If the target wants to make sure you are clean from magical buffs AND they are clean from magical debuffs, plus making sure you're oom, they if a priest, are going to have to spend a LOT of time dispelling and mana burning.

I know this wont fix us completely, I am simply pointing out that it might not be as bad as you think and its a lot better then we have it at the moment.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

Originally Posted by Borg

This simply isn't true. Seals cannot be dispelled from us if we have them talented. Seals last their full 30 second duration without being consumed upon a judge. Judgement of the "xx" is FREE from mana cost. So if you've got command up, which you're likely to have, what with it having no way of being dispelled and a long duration, you can simply judge the target with wisdom and get a heap of mana back. This didn't cost you anything.

Bare in mind that you could have stoicism from prot reducing the dispel chance of your magical effects on the enemy too, you will most likely be judging every 8 seconds reapplying wisdom to the target. If the target doesn't want wisdom to be there they are going to have to spend quite a lot of time dispelling to guarantee its removal. Not only this but mana burning you to keep you oom. Oh wait judgement crit, boom 2k mana. Requiring more mana burning, oh he's got wisdom judged on himself again. Not to mention the target might want to spam dispel on you to remove your hands.

If the target wants to make sure you are clean from magical buffs AND they are clean from magical debuffs, plus making sure you're oom, they if a priest, are going to have to spend a LOT of time dispelling and mana burning.

I know this wont fix us completely, I am simply pointing out that it might not be as bad as you think and its a lot better then we have it at the moment.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

I think we all agree it is not itentional to have 17k or 21k judgmenets , but we should have biggest burst of all melee classes no matter what ... arms warriors should never be able to burst more then us couse we dont have interupt and ms and intercept etc. That should be thing we have instead all of that we should have a bit bigger burst then them and that is what i think is given in wotlk ... they should fix art of war ofc but we will still have our 50% cut throught absorbing or reduction effects with new imp AW and so on ... So in pair with enhancement shaman for interutp or/and arms warrior we should make realy good combo now.
I wouldnt be surprised if they want to make retri usable in arenas with high resiliance raitings to keep judgmenets doing 4-5k with art of war proc and keep ignoring 50% of resiliance while AW is active. Couse if they remove AW and make judgmenets do 3k at best then we will again not have use in arenas.

Re: How is rets mana efficiency in wrath?

Originally Posted by StormScion

I think we all agree it is not itentional to have 17k or 21k judgmenets , but we should have biggest burst of all melee classes no matter what ... arms warriors should never be able to burst more then us couse we dont have interupt and ms and intercept etc. That should be thing we have instead all of that we should have a bit bigger burst then them and that is what i think is given in wotlk ... they should fix art of war ofc but we will still have our 50% cut throught absorbing or reduction effects with new imp AW and so on ... So in pair with enhancement shaman for interutp or/and arms warrior we should make realy good combo now.
I wouldnt be surprised if they want to make retri usable in arenas with high resiliance raitings to keep judgmenets doing 4-5k with art of war proc and keep ignoring 50% of resiliance while AW is active. Couse if they remove AW and make judgmenets do 3k at best then we will again not have use in arenas.

We do have the biggest burst damage lol. If you watch the videos you can see Ret Paladins raping the hell out of both MS and Fury Warriors without the need for heals. I'm personally looking forward to wotlk from every aspect of a Paladin. Yes, Beacon of Light needs some work, and Sheath of Light is a little buggy, but I like the direction each tree is moving towards.