[G] PvZ Fast Third into Zealot/Immortal Timing

This guide will explain how to take a faster, safer third base against Zerg, max out ridiculously quickly, and execute a powerful zealot/immortal/templar pre-broodlord timing all while teching mothership and taking a fourth base. The build combines tips and techniques I've learned from great players like rsvp, LeiYa (formerly known as puCKK), and Zeth, as well as some ideas I've picked up through practice. The result:

Why Zealots vs Zerg?

A lot of people think zealots are garbage vs Zerg, and that's true in many situations. Forcefields complement stalkers and colossi really well, and zealots don't do much good if you're already forcefielding Zerg's army away from your DPS ball. But the metagame has shifted toward Zerg building lots of spine crawlers, infestors and zerglings while they tech toward broodlords, and when Zerg gets out infestors, your sentries eventually die. At this point, you're left with a bunch of stalkers that are pinned in place by fungal and not enough colossi to clean up the hoard of zerglings and roaches that has surrounded your force.

My solution to this metagame challenge is to focus more heavily on zealots which provide adequate tanking even in the face of fungals and spine crawlers.

Properly supported by immortals and sentries, zealots are a very powerful solution to the Stephano-style roach rush because they're cheap and durable with a short build time, and your supply rockets up much more quickly than if you build stalkers. They're also resilient against fungal growth, and because they're so cheap, it's okay to throw them away to drain infestor energy. Since zealots are a pure mineral dump, you're also able to quickly tech mothership behind your push.

If you don't already know how to FFE, I'd suggest learning a more simple build first. I will note that the timings for this build work best off of 17 nexus, 17 forge, 17 gateway, 17 pylon, 18 cannon. Of course, that cannon timing will be too slow to be safe in some situations based on Zerg's pool timing and the rush distance. Adjust accordingly.

3 Gate + Robo Infrastructure:

The guiding principles for setting up your early infrastructure are (1) you want to hit a 7:40 warp-in timing to slow Zerg's economy, (2) you need 2 observers to keep tabs on Zerg's tech and army choices, and (3) you're going to be spending a ton of minerals and very little gas up until you have your third base operational. I recommend starting your gateway before your second pylon and your cannon to enable an early and effective pressure timing at 7:40.

Take your first gas after your cannon and your second gas after your cybernetics core. This is easy to remember because, assuming everything else is on time, this is the earliest you can afford them. You'll be staying on 2 gas until your third base is established and you're producing off of 5 gates and a robo.

Start a zealot after your second gas, start WG tech when the core finishes, and spend your next 50 gas on a stalker. Chronoboost WG research 3 times. Build a robotics facility with your next 100 gas, and then add 2 more gateways with your next available 300 minerals. Remember to hotkey your robo and gateways as soon as your start them because there will be a lot going on when they finish around 7:30 and you won't have time to hotkey them then.

Third Base Behind Soft Zealot Pressure:

Send a probe to Zerg's third base shortly before your stalker completes. Start a pylon near Zerg's third, and then send your probe back home. Meanwhile, start a sentry followed by +1 weapons after your stalker completes, and send the sentry along with a probe to your third. The sentry is sent to clear a zergling that will frequently be blocking your third base. Start the third base when you're able to. You'll have enough minerals by about 7:20, but it may be slightly delayed if there's a zergling blocking. Build an observer.

At 7:40, you should have 3 warpgates, a zealot and a stalker defending a proxy pylon while 3 more zealots warp in, a robotics facility finishing an observer, and a third nexus started. The game state should look something like this:

Note that this 4 zealot + stalker pressure can't deal damage unless Zerg plays extremely greedy. You can afford to sacrifice the zealots, but it's better to keep them alive. Simply walk your small force toward Zerg's third base and retreat as soon as you see a roach or a good number of zerglings. This attack is timed to hit before Zerg is likely to have zergling speed, so there's a good chance that you'll be able to get away with your full force. Also note that because Zerg will see your lack of gas, they're likely to overreact and cut workers much more than they need to.

Now Zerg is kicking himself for over-producing attack units and you can expect a counter-pressure on your third and natural. Make sure to start a pylon at your third right after or even before your nexus so that you can warp in cannons on time. You're aiming to form a 2 cannon, 2 gateway defense that looks like this:

Note that you want to leave open the choke that's closest to your natural so that your sentries have to cover the shortest possible distance to bounce between your natural and your third. Some people like to wall off the close path to form a hook that roaches have to walk around, but this just increases the distance that your sentries have to cover. You're going to be forcefielding this choke closed, so the hook will be there for the roaches anyway.

Start two more assimilators after your 4th and 5th gateways (blocking off the cannons at your third). At this point, you should have 2 observers. The first should be bouncing between Zerg's bases trying to identify Zerg's tech path while the second watches Zerg's army movements. The tech options you need to worry about are:

(1) no tech(2) spire(3) infestation pit

If the lair is complete and you see the roach warren jiggling but there are no additional tech structures, Zerg is probably planning to go for the Stephano-style roach max attack. Maintain constant zealot/sentry/immortal production off of your 5 gates and robo. Stay on 4 gas. Build a twilight council followed by additional gates as resources allow. Tip: keep 1 sentry in the choke in your natural to deny zergling run-by's. Remember to micro this doorway to let your immortals through with every production round. Research charge. You'll be fine.

If you see a spire, plan to attack as soon as you can put together an effective force. Build a twilight council if you don't already have one and research blink when it finishes. Slam down 3 more gates and keep your forge chronoboosted. Pressuring Zerg can pin his mutas at home, denying the harass + mass bases engine from getting off the ground. If you scout the spire late or don't feel like you can put together an attack in time, play standard blink stalker defense into storm.

If you see an infestation pit, you can relax. You have time to tech charge, storm, double upgrades, and build out your 12 gate infrastructure. After your 4th and 5th gates, I recommend taking the gas at your natural and third, and then build twilight council and a second forge. My execution hasn't gotten there yet, but I believe that with good chronoboost, you can get +1/+1 off your single forge and then time that upgrade up with your twilight and second forge to start +2/+2 nice and early. Keep an eye on Zerg's hive timing. You have exactly 4 minutes between when Zerg starts his hive and the earliest point that Zerg can have broodlords.

12 Gate Attack With Chargelot/Immortal/Templar:

You want to attack at least 30 seconds before the earliest point that broodlords can finish. It's possible to be maxed or near-maxed at 14 minutes, so that's a good timing to shoot for. At the very least, you want charge and templar (with storm researching) before you attack. Your top micro priority will be feedbacking infestors. Forcefields and storms are good supplementary micro, but feedbacking is #1.

If you're able to hit 90 seconds before the broodlord timing, you can force additional army production which will slow the broodlord transition further. This can result in a loop where Zerg never has time to get broodlords, his infestors run out of energy, and you eventually just roll him over.

As you're attacking, keep in mind the infestor energy level. Frequently, the start of the battle seems to go in Zerg's favor, but if you find a point where you're able to disengage, you can back off to warp in a round or 2 of reinforcements and re-initiate the fight against now-depleted infestors.

Note that if Zerg hasn't started his hive by about 12 minutes, there's a good chance he's planning to be aggressive with his infestors. Having storm available to defend this attack will be very helpful, but it's not imperative.

Tech Mothership and Air Weapons Behind Attack:

Your attack will often be game-winning (Zerg typically prepares for a colossus timing, and this defense isn't optimal against the attack you'll be using), but you can afford to tech mothership and take a fourth behind the attack, so go ahead and do so. Assuming you can't just win with the attack, your goals should be to thin out the infestor count, kill off outlying bases, and delay the broodlords. Sometimes you'll even delay the broodlords enough that you have a mothership before Zerg has broodlords. This is a good sign that you're about to win.

With your mothership, you have the option to push again with your first vortex if you think you can finish the game. Alternatively, you can attempt an air transition. The ultimate Protoss army is about 6 carriers, a mothership, a bunch of archons, about 6 templar for storming corruptors, and maybe a few void rays.

You may be vulnerable during your carrier transition (not enough air to beat the corruptors, not enough ground to beat the broodlords), so keep in mind an estimate for how much time you have until Zerg can do a scary broodlord push. Storms and archon toilets can keep you safe against a low broodlord count, but you'll die to a strong broodlord attack if you get caught with an incomplete carrier transition.

If you're successful in thinning out his infestor count and denying some economy, your strongest option will often be to drop in multiple locations while threatening his forward bases with your main force. He'll have broodlords, but not an overwhelming number of them and little support on the ground. With your double forge midgame, your zealots and stalkers will have 4 armor, and broodlings only deal 4 base damage. Unless he has +3 melee, his broodlings will only deal 1 or 2 damage per shot which means you can easily handle his broodlords if you're able to engage them cleanly. He'll be low on fungals to prevent blink-unders, so all you have to do is pull his broodlords away from his spine crawler walls and engage. Be careful not to blink your stalkers in front of your zealots too soon. You're going to take damage surprisngly slowly, so you can be patient with the blink-under.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this helps your PvZ. This style has definitely made a word of difference for me. My PvZ used to lag far behind my PvT and PvP, but with this build, it's right next to PvT as my strongest match-up. If you're interested, you can check out more high-level guides I've written:

What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?

Also, I'm kind of new to reddit, comments there seem much less constructive, is that normal? -gaijindash 2015

On November 01 2012 10:54 Acritter wrote:What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?

I think mutas are the toughest thing to beat, but as a player, I'm just bad against mutas. Players that have more success against mutas might not find them so difficult to beat with this build. The key is scouting the spire early as zealot/immortal isn't so helpful when 15 mutas glide into your main.

As for hydras, you so rarely see them, but they do add some punch to the roach force. If you see a hydralisk den, I'd recommend playing more defensively until you have storm. You can't push a roach+hydra force around with immortals like you can push a pure roach force around. That said, with this build, I'd still be grinning when I scouted that hydralisk den. With forcefields, you're extremely unlikely to die to any push so long as you don't over-extend yourself, and hydra production means an extended lair phase which means you have extra time before broodlords. Once you have storm out, Zerg can't deal with your maxed force until broodlords, so hydras should be a welcome sight.

On November 01 2012 10:54 Acritter wrote:What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?

I think mutas are the toughest thing to beat, but as a player, I'm just bad against mutas. Players that have more success against mutas might not find them so difficult to beat with this build. The key is scouting the spire early as zealot/immortal isn't so helpful when 15 mutas glide into your main.

As for hydras, you so rarely see them, but they do add some punch to the roach force. If you see a hydralisk den, I'd recommend playing more defensively until you have storm. You can't push a roach+hydra force around with immortals like you can push a pure roach force around. That said, with this build, I'd still be grinning when I scouted that hydralisk den. With forcefields, you're extremely unlikely to die to any push so long as you don't over-extend yourself, and hydra production means an extended lair phase which means you have extra time before broodlords. Once you have storm out, Zerg can't deal with your maxed force until broodlords, so hydras should be a welcome sight.

Okay, thanks. The one step of learning any new build I really dread is finding out the hard way what the build struggles with. It generally involves a really embarrassing loss. Hopefully this will accelerate things in a good direction.

Also, I'm kind of new to reddit, comments there seem much less constructive, is that normal? -gaijindash 2015

On November 01 2012 10:34 kcdc wrote:Take your first gas after your cannon and your second gas after your cybernetics core.

Haha, you edited it before I could comment!

Anyways, this build looks really cool and I think I'm going to be making this my standard PvZ! One thing which would be nice is a few more timing benchmarks (ie x supply @ y time) -- probably not needed for high masters players, but helpful for those of us who are just diamond. I'll get them from the replay, but it's an idea!

Awesome guide, the zealot + immortal + templar 3 base timing is surprisingly effective. I remember SaSe doing it at an MLG earlier this year (I think vs Leenock) and when I tried it out on ladder I would own it up especially on cloud kingdom. He would get 3 gas with 2 probes in each (and add a 4th gas while the robo starts), and take his third off 2-3 sentries and an immortal then sim city everything up. Of course that's a pretty greedy variation, so the extra gates you suggest is more solid. The fast robo also fakes out a lot of zergs into thinking that you are going for a 2 base all in. SaSe would also get a quick hallucinate and keep check of the zerg's army composition as he macrod up his 3 base army so it was as cost effective as possible.

Since imo this works best as a 3 base pre-BL all in on most maps, I'd suggest going up to 12 gates or so since you likely won't be adding any more immortals after 5-6 (assuming he's going for some roach+ling+infestor+spine comp) and even building a warp prism or two to help with the engagement. Even though chargelots+immortals do great against spines I've lost to zergs that get a good set of fungals down and have a good concave with their roach+ling+spines so what I'd recommend is to warp in some zealots in the back of the zerg's main + at their third and wait for them to pull back bits of their army (or 1A to the back of their base -_-) so you can clear the spines without the whole army sitting there as well.

When i use this style I usually stop at 4-6 HT and add in a few archons, I also have ~6 sentries from securing my expo with hallucination for scouting.

I find that using hallucination before engaging and sending in a wave of fake zeal immortal archon really helps soak up damage from fungals and spines. The gaurdian shields are awesome too vs. the infested terran and roaches.

On November 01 2012 10:54 Acritter wrote:What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?

If broodlords are out and you havent yet transitioned to blink stalkers/mothership, your going to have a bad time...

On November 01 2012 11:45 Quochobao wrote:Can you elaborate on how to defend the max roach attack on third? Our composition includes a bunch of zealots, which I presume is pretty useless given the FF and the sim city.

How exactly to defend then?

You constantly pump immortals out of your robo and you make good use of FF's.

Honestly you should be scouting for the roach max before just teching to templar and playing greedy with probe production, etc...

if you suspect roach max just focus on unit production (namely immortals) and make sure your hitting your forcefields and chronoboosting your gates/robo

On November 01 2012 12:13 Erik.TheRed wrote:Since imo this works best as a 3 base pre-BL all in on most maps, I'd suggest going up to 12 gates or so since you likely won't be adding any more immortals after 5-6 (assuming he's going for some roach+ling+infestor+spine comp) and even building a warp prism or two to help with the engagement. Even though chargelots+immortals do great against spines I've lost to zergs that get a good set of fungals down and have a good concave with their roach+ling+spines so what I'd recommend is to warp in some zealots in the back of the zerg's main + at their third and wait for them to pull back bits of their army (or 1A to the back of their base -_-) so you can clear the spines without the whole army sitting there as well.

You should be paying attention to where the zerg is setting up his defense and try to crash the tip of his concave. On cloud kingdom for example you'll see alot of zerg set up spines at their 4th and concave to defend the ramp that comes down into the 4th.

For this reason I prefer to just head to the low ground by the xel naga tower side and head straight in with a spread army, This is force the zerg to reposition his forces and make the spines a little more awkward defensively. It also gives you more room to spread out and avoid fungals. Then as you reinforce you can have units coming from either the top end down the ramp or following up behind your army.

On November 01 2012 12:30 Cyro wrote:Looks sweet, bookmarked and im gonna look into trying this out some, will probably need a few games to get everything down to a playable level though, a lot of stuff i like.

Blink stalkers good til you can replace them? Im bad and my opponents are too so i keep getting into games on cloud kingdom where zerg spines up his 4'th and refuses to move from it until he has 20 broods and 20 infestors if protoss has a strong standing army and is harassing with WP's and denying bases

Very similar to the build I use, only I skip the early zealots / harass, and use the gold towards earlier cannoning at the third / expansion. Basically sentry/immortal composition first half of the game, I prefer the blink stalkers cause of the potential muta threat, but the heavy zeals are always nice

Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY

The ultimate Protoss army is about 6 carriers, a mothership, a bunch of archons, about 6 templar for storming corruptors, and maybe a few void rays.

What would you do with the rest of your supply? How many probes do you think is good (standard 60-80, or is there a number you go for?), and what units would you fill the supply gap with?

I'd recommend archons and voids for the rest of the supply to better protect your carriers from corruptors. More carriers can be a good choice too if you have enough air upgrades. Well-upgraded carriers can stand up to corruptors with storm support, and extra archons are never a bad thing.

I remember trying this out after i saw puck use it. I got a large part of my army fungaled and i thought i was dead, but i was eventually able to wear down the zerg as he ran out of infestor energy. Zealots are sooo cheap so u can warp them in off a ton of gateways and still keep a reasonable bank.

I just don't ever see this holding stephano style which you are likely to evoke with the zealot pressure. Without forcefield abuse that is simply not stoppable imo, a few immortals is cool and all but they can't stop mass roach kiling you. As such I feel it's a metagame thing and don't like it, you can always transition into the zealot style later once you determined they are skipping the roach phase mostly.

In the section where you talk about how to respond to mutas, you don't mention building defensive cannons in mineral lines; is this just implied, or do you actually skip getting cannons versus the mutas?

"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."

On November 01 2012 15:45 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:In the section where you talk about how to respond to mutas, you don't mention building defensive cannons in mineral lines; is this just implied, or do you actually skip getting cannons versus the mutas?

I'd imagine so, plus vs Muta play you really need the gas income from the third base for templar tech so getting a relatively fast third is actually pretty helpful in itself in dealing with mutas.