Hi guys, i'm new to the forum so please forgive me if this is something that has already been discussed. Basically I teach/train in wing chun but am very aware that the biggest thing holding me back in becoming 'able' when it comes to self-defense is adrenaline. It can ruin the most technical fighters. So, for you guys that train, how do you train your ability to resist/control adrenaline? What techniques/exercises can work in a class?

hard sparring can induce an adrenaline rush and the more you deal with it the better you can get at managing yourself under it. competetion is another great way of dealing with it. i have expirence with competetion at the national level and i can speak from expirence that putting yourself in that environment can induce an adrenaline rush as well, the more you do it the better you can get at managing it as wel.

another way is to participate in gradings in your martial arts style. the stress and fear from that can also induce an adrenaline rush, again the more you deal with it the better you can get with it.

some people focus on their breathing, others repeat a phrase in their head over and over. its different for different people, you should explore it for your self. the main point is that you have to push or place yourself in stressfull situations to get good at managing them. there's no easy way. good luck.

Yeah, full contact sparring is definitely the best way to train adrenaline but with new students you donít want to spar them straight away Iím sure you would agree.

One exercise Iíve used before is standing a student in the middle of a group of people holding pads while they spin round to make them dizzy, then after a little while getting them to stop and hit the pads whilst remaining coordinated. Itís difficult but is an attempt to recreate the tunnel vision etc of an adrenaline rush.

Does anyone know of any similar sorts of techniques that can aid training in this way?

I disagree with the full contact sparring as being the BEST way to train for the effect of adrenaline. it is a very effective method but it lacks the emotional component of Fight or flight (FoF) in response to a real world attack.

It is great for experiencing the adrenaline, and there are plenty of other drills that assist in acclimatising to the physical effect of adrenaline.

Any drill that produces the physical sensations of adrenaline and FoF and requires the student to function under those conditions is beneficial

However this only addresses the physical aspect of FoF, there is a small emotional component, but nothing like the emotions experienced in a real self defence situation.

See the Fight or Flight is an emotional response, even though th physical sensations are similar or the same, the emotion that elicits the response (and the stimulus) dictates the effect of the response. It is the emotional component of FoF that produces the strongest freeze response

Basically not all adrenaline dumps are the same, sparring for eg, produces adrenaline, there is a degree of fear (fear of being hurt, failure, non performance etc) but there is a lack of emotionally elicited fear response. different fears produce different uses of FoF.

If it was all the same then all we would need to do is watch adrenaline releasing movies and we should be able to familiarize ourselves to any danger at all. this sadly isn't the case. A snake elicits a different response then skydiving. the physical reactions of the body and the associated sensations are very similar maybe even identical, but you will experience a difference between the two.

we are not mechanical beings our experiences are made up of not just physical sensations but psychological and emotional sensation. The mind and heart lead the body

Senario training is one of the best ways to link the Behavioural, Emotional and Psychological aspects of violence. the idea is to evoke a emotional response that in turn evokes the physical FoF response. This is how it happens in real world violence it's not just a physical one.

that being said the more familiar you are with the physical component the more resources you are able to use controlling the other components

this is a face book video (you need to be signed up to face book) it shows emotional evocation (warning the video contains frequent course language, and content may offend...but hey this is reality)

imaging eliciting this response in a student andthen having them immediately perform under pressure (sparring pad work acclimatisation drills etc)

Shove a pair of focus mitts on the aggressor and then start with the emotional evocation, suddenly bombard them with strikes from the pads (have them cover up) and then have them immediately fight back (striking the pads) with whatever techniques appropriate to your system. you could have then straight blast (into the pads) as soon as the attacker stops the barrage (the pad man holds the pads in their centerline.)

good stuff. another drill we do similar to the spin drill is to have a student in the middle of a ring of other students. its like a kumite drill where the people surounding the guy in the middle all attack at random! or you could have some one call out names at random, and the attack starts right away and only lasts a few seconds.

this way the student in the middle can't know which way its coming from, increasing the level of unknown is another good way to learn to deal with it.

you could midify it all kinds of ways, like having the people who attack hold pads and kick sheilds and atempt to rush or tackle the target in the middle. some times you could have mass attacks form here as well. or have some students pull fake knives at random.

However this only addresses the physical aspect of FoF, there is a small emotional component, but nothing like the emotions experienced in a real self defence situation.

See the Fight or Flight is an emotional response, even though th physical sensations are similar or the same, the emotion that elicits the response (and the stimulus) dictates the effect of the response. It is the emotional component of FoF that produces the strongest freeze response

Basically not all adrenaline dumps are the same, sparring for eg, produces adrenaline, there is a degree of fear (fear of being hurt, failure, non performance etc) but there is a lack of emotionally elicited fear response. different fears produce different uses of FoF.

The Fight, flight or freeze response is caused by stress chemicals making the heart rate exceeding 175 bpm. The FoF is an instinctual response triggered by stress. That trigger is different for every person-it may even vary for the same person in two similar situations. The effects of stress are evidenced by the heart rate caused by the level of stress. Freezing occurs when brain activity shifts ( at around 175 bpm) from the fore brain to the mid-brain and a response has not been programmed into the mid-brain. Since there is no response stored in the mid-brain it "freezes" until it can come up with a response. Stress resulting in a heart rate less than 175 bpm will have different effects-examples115-deterioration of fine motor skills145-deterioration of complex motor skillsOther examples of stress responses-physical and perceptualauditory exclusion, tachypsychia, vasoconstriction, hyper optic optical shift,

Freezing occurs when brain activity shifts ( at around 175 bpm) from the fore brain to the mid-brain and a response has not been programmed into the mid-brain. Since there is no response stored in the mid-brain it "freezes" until it can come up with a response.

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This is pretty spot on, the freeze is often caused by a feedback loop, except it isn't so much to do with not finding a response, but more to do with an inability to chose a response. we always have a response either fight or flight, the freeze occurs because of interference in the process from our cognitive mind and emotions. basically the lack of response is due to an inability to choose among competing responses.

During FoF the activity in the brain does concentrate inward and the Mid brain becomes the dominant area memories aren't stored in the mid brain, but can be accessed by it. this is what occurs in the secondary pathway of FoF. the first pathway activates the body for action, the second consults the memory for similar stimulus and prior responses. It's here where our higher order emotions and thoughts stuff up the natural process.

animals don't do that, a rabbit doesn't stand around and think, it just bolts.

anyway I'm waffling.

by the way it is only Fight and Flight not fight, flight and freeze. Freezing is not part of the process, every thing about the FoF response is designed for action not freezing. freezing is a consequence.

by the way it is only Fight and Flight not fight, flight and freeze. Freezing is not part of the process, every thing about the FoF response is designed for action not freezing. freezing is a consequence.

In her book Deadly Force Encounters Dr. Artwohl list three responses to Fear-Fight, Flight or Freeze.To quote,"What if you can't escape by flight and the adversary is too big to defeat in a fight? That is why Mother Nature gave you the third option:" At this point I have muddled the concepts together-to clarify. Freezing as described by Dr. Artwohl as one of the three fear responses. And freezing mentally which of course is different. Dave Grossman talks about the four F's as responses to fear-Fight, Flight, Freeze and Procreate

In her book Deadly Force Encounters Dr. Artwohl list three responses to Fear-Fight, Flight or Freeze.To quote,"What if you can't escape by flight and the adversary is too big to defeat in a fight? That is why Mother Nature gave you the third option:" At this point I have muddled the concepts together-to clarify. Freezing as described by Dr. Artwohl as one of the three fear responses. And freezing mentally which of course is different. Dave Grossman talks about the four F's as responses to fear-Fight, Flight, Freeze and Procreate

G'day Duane,

Physically Freezing or playing possum most definately is a defensive response used by many species. I just don't see it as a acute stress response. The defence mechanism of freezing may very well be an automatic response in some animals but usually this defence tactic is also specific to the predator of that species. i haven't done any study on this, it's just from observation but animals that utilize freezing or playing dead tend to face threats from "chase" predators. Thus playing dead counters the chase reflex.

Humans however are predator species not prey species, I'm not aware of any predator species that uses freeze as a defensive tactic (observations not claiming scientific fact here)

Basically my view of freezing is that, in humans, it is a consequence coming about from FoF, rather then a response of the FoF. hence when talking about human FoF I don't agree with the inclusion of Freeze. Globally I guess it is but specifically it may not be.

Although reading can never replace real situations / intensive training, consider purchasing 2 Geoff Thompson books that focus largely on adrenaline. 'Watch My Back' is a story of his time on the doors and 'Dead or Alive' is more factual than autobiographical. But when it comes to understanding adrenaline, Geoof's probably the world's no.1

Quote:Although reading can never replace real situations / intensive training, consider purchasing 2 Geoff Thompson books that focus largely on adrenaline. 'Watch My Back' is a story of his time on the doors and 'Dead or Alive' is more factual than autobiographical. But when it comes to understanding adrenaline, Geoof's probably the world's no.1

A predator is a predator when it hunts its' prey. It is prey when hunted by another predator.The freeze happens in animals and humans-predator and prey alike. In the olden days when sabre tooth tigers roamed the earth and came across our ancestors they had three options-1. Band together and fight.2. Run and let the slowest one get caught.3. Remain motionless and hope the cat didn't scent you. Those who chose to go towards the cat saying ,"here kitty, kitty." were eliminated from the gene pool. Leaving the first three as hard wired instinctual responses to fear.

I Agree with that (though at times I think I may have genes extending from the one's that said "here kitty, kitty")

I agree that freezing is a instinctual response to fear, I just don't believe it is apart of Fight or Flight (FoF).

I haven't actually counted them personally, but there are over 1000 separate chemical actions that make up FoF virtually every one of them is geared towards action or the consequences of action. very few are designed for immobility most act contra to it.

The sabre-tooth is a good example but it is also predator specific in the sense that, the freeze tactic may work against that predator. But against another human it won't.

There are 3 types of freezes -one is the instinctual type that is hardwired into many animals (we have all seen the feinting goats on YouTube)-another is the tactical type were you choose to freeze in the hope the danger moves on to a more active "live" victim related is the hide, were you tactically freeze out of line of the danger (ie you see them and freeze/hide before they see you, or you see them, run and hide to loose them).-the third is the one which us humans usually end up doing it's the feedback loop freeze or the search loop freeze (in/decision loop) in its simplest terms we can't make a decision so we freeze while we try to.

I guess in a way there is a type of freeze in FoF, it's the moment of inaction between the primary and secondary paths, the primary path goes straight to the body (so to speak) wich primes it for action, you don't actually act until the second pathway has consulted with the higher brain to tell the body what to do. It's from this point when fight or flight kicks in, if you choose to freeze then you override the fight or flights purpose.

I guess freezing is also related to the distance between predator and prey. if you step of over a rock and there is a snake two meters away you'll probably naturally flight (unless you're Steve Urwin) if you step over a rock and see the snake is 6 meters away you may just freeze to observe before backing away. This could be a form of decision loop freeze, where you freeze to assess.

OK I'm waffling on like an idiot know.

I don't see Freezing as a part of the FoF response but I do agree it's a possible fear response.

Of course it would be much easier if humans didn't have the higher order cognitive ability that gets in the way of our instinctual responses, still without that we wouldn't be discussing this on the net....... or at all.

I don't see Freezing as a part of the FoF response but I do agree it's a possible fear response.

Of course it would be much easier if humans didn't have the higher order cognitive ability that gets in the way of our instinctual responses, still without that we wouldn't be discussing this on the net....... or at all.

The freeze tactic is part of the FOF response. When Walter Cannon looked into fof he described a whole list of responses that the body undergoes. In the extreme cases fof will take place, however most of the time it does not get to that point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

People who are afraid to talk in front of large groups of people will experience fof symptoms, but seldom do they run off stage in fear or become aggressive. Sometimes they freeze for a moment in order to regain composure and get control of the situation.

The FOF response happens everyday in life but we usually don't find ourselves to the point of FOF. But the symptoms are there like increased heart rate, increased blood flow, and many others. Just because someone does not run away in fear or become aggressive, the body and mind still undergo significant changes. When people go into their bosses office to ask for a raise that can cause fof symptoms. Talking in front of large crowds. Being at the seen of a bad accident. Being sixteen and going to meet your girlfriends parents for the first time.

When you realize that the FOF symptoms happen in everyday life you can learn to control the changes within the body to be able to make a more clear decision in stressful situations.

This may come across as me arguing with you, but please take it as I intend it a discussion or debate

Quote:The freeze tactic is part of the FOF response. When Walter Cannon looked into fof he described a whole list of responses that the body undergoes. In the extreme cases fof will take place, however most of the time it does not get to that point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

Don't rely too much on Wikipedia, it is a great source of knowledge but it can be added to and edited by anyone and is not Peer reviewed. In the science community Wikipedia is not considered to be a scientific valid source.

That being said it is a great source for quick knowledge, I'm just warning not to rely on the info as gospel.

This is from a recently published article of mine re: Walter Cannons findings.

"The fight-or-flight response, also called the acute stress response, was first described by Walter Cannon in 1915, in his printed work ďBodily Changes in Pain, Hunger, Fear and Rage: An Account of Recent Researches into the Function of Emotional ExcitementĒ. His theory states that animals react to threats with a general discharge of the sympathetic nervous system, priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress responses among vertebrates and other organisms."

He doesn't equate Freezing as part of the response.

Quote:

People who are afraid to talk in front of large groups of people will experience fof symptoms, but seldom do they run off stage in fear or become aggressive. Sometimes they freeze for a moment in order to regain composure and get control of the situation.

Exactly, they tactically choose to freeze to overcome the effects of FoF. They don't automatically freeze as a result of it,rather they still them selves, reflex which helps return the system to equilibrium.

Quote:

The FOF response happens everyday in life but we usually don't find ourselves to the point of FOF. But the symptoms are there like increased heart rate, increased blood flow, and many others. Just because someone does not run away in fear or become aggressive, the body and mind still undergo significant changes. When people go into their bosses office to ask for a raise that can cause fof symptoms. Talking in front of large crowds. Being at the seen of a bad accident. Being sixteen and going to meet your girlfriends parents for the first time.

Your spot on again. FoF is is activated regularly, infact research is revealing that low level FoF from work stress is linked to many illnesses. under FoF your digestive system is shut down or at least inhibited, is there any wonder that high stressed employees often suffer from stomach ulcers among other digestive complaints. constant low levels of FoF causes the heart to work harder then it's meant to for longer then it is meant to, How many high stress exec have high blood pressure and heart problems

Many of the problems associated with stress come about through our natural FoF response being engaged in situations that are not truly life threatening. but they are perceived as dangerous in our modern times (we fear a lot more now a days then !0,000bc, eg loss of job lost of lifestyle loss of face and any offer fear that keeps us working. honestly I think life was a lot less stressful in the times of the Sabre tooth then today.

Though your last example could involve some genuine danger

Quote:

When you realize that the FOF symptoms happen in everyday life you can learn to control the changes within the body to be able to make a more clear decision in stressful situations.

I have to disagree here (even if only semantically). Once it is triggered, we can not control the actual FoF response. What we can do is control it's intensity by controlling the perceived level of threat, essentially we fear the stimulus less (there are a few techniques to do this that are related to psycho-therapy). We can acclimatise to the sensations of FoF (adrenal stress conditioning), the more we do a fear inducing act the less we fear it.

my point being the actual flight and flight response is automatic and underneath our conscious control, what triggers it (the before) and how we recover (the after) are the only ways to "control" it.

now I want to emphasis something here the fight or flight response is merely the physiological activation of systems priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. The actual fight or flight are not technically part of the system but the actions utilizing the FoF response. The FoF is the preparation not the action. This is why Freezing is not part of the FoF response, the FoF prepares the body for action it does not prepare it for stillness in fact is mostly counter productive to it.

When an organism freezes as a fear response they basically ignore the FoF Response and uses another response (ie not fighting or fleeing). Fighting or flighting aren't the only fear responses but they are the only to that the FoF response is designed for.

The freezing they are referring to is similar to the "Orientation reflex" and is closely related to the startle-flinch reflex. It forms part of the perception of stimulus aspect of FoF.

Technically I guess you are right in that that you are frozen in a moment of orientation and assessment. This occurs during the primary pathway discharge of the parasympathetic. it's a confirmation of danger that is used in the secondary pathway to kick in an action.

though This isn't really the freeze that is often referred to in Self defence. I'll admit there is a moment of evaluation where the organism is frozen.

it is also dependent on the immediacy of the threat. using the Deer or antelope as an example. when a threat is presented the deer will orientate to the threat and evaluate it, this is evident by the deer looking up and around ears twitching etc. If the threat is more immediate as with a sudden attack then the default action is to Run, they by pass that evaluation, if there is no time to run they may fight and then run.

Of course humans are a little more complicated then deer, we have other often interfering traits such as pride, ego emotions etc that interfere with the the default setting. the typical pub fight is a great eg. it is often ego that prevents us from fleeing and steers us into fighting.

If a stimulus is suddenly introduced to us that is at a distance (ie less immediate threat then we will orientate and evaluate.) our flinch becomes an orientating reflex that allows evaluation (for eg the sound of breaking glass or the Abuse of a drunk directed towards you). we will probably still flinch in a defensive manner but our goal is to orientate and evaluate.

If the stimulus is presented suddenly and immediately, (for eg a hey maker thrown out of the blue or a projectile thrown at you) then our immediate response is a defensive flinch, we do not freeze and evaluate we instinctively cover to protect ourself or push away the danger (hence the defensive knife wounds on the palms). this is part of the primary pathway.

when the secondary pathway catches up then for all intent and purpose the FoF response is finished, remember it is simply the preparation for the body to take action. the body is not super charged and ready for action. The default setting is Flee, fight is the default setting when fleeing is not an option, freezing as an action, is either a tactical choice (in humans) or a consequence of a feedback loop. It is not part of the FoF and it is not what FoF prepares the body for it is stuff up primarily as a consequence of our ability to think or more accurately our inability not to think.

Freezing is contra to the FoF response, it just happens to occur in association to it.

Hope that doesn't sound like lecturing I'm just sharing what I've learned during my study and research. there is always going to be conflicting views and theories, which is good because it forces one to substantiate their own "facts" and opens up avenues to expand on them.

If every one agreed which everything we would be in a peaceful world but it would also be flat.