Comments on: Ex-Gay Project Failshttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482
News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoricFri, 31 Jul 2015 17:14:55 +0000hourly1By: Ezamhttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-109702
Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:07:41 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-109702Sorry Johnny, but that crap doesn’t fly over here.
]]>By: Johnnyhttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107969
Sat, 08 Oct 2011 08:19:02 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107969Change in attractions is possible and there’s no such thing as homosexual orientation…humans are heterosexual. This is plain as day.
]]>By: cowboyhttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107482
Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:10:05 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107482If I had to listen to Pat Boone music 3X/week for 7 years I’d turn into something like the Hollywood characterization of a doe-eyed lunatic. Eventually I’d look like the person in Munch’s The Scream.

But, really, Theo hit the nail on the head with: “…Americans are ignorant about their legal system…”

]]>By: Priya Lynnhttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107481
Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:06:16 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107481You’re one smart cookie, Theo.
]]>By: Theohttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107479
Fri, 30 Sep 2011 15:37:11 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107479I’d like to suggest, as I have in the past, that BTB do one of its in-depth pieces on the motive behind the big emphasis on mutability. The motives of the conflicted homosexuals who want to resolve that conflict by becoming heterosexual are clear enough. But why are all the anti-gay groups so heavily focused on this issue, even when it becomes clear that actual orientation change – assuming it is ever possible – is an uncommon occurrence and would not eliminate or even substantially reduce the number of homosexuals in the populace?

The answer is that these groups believe or pretend to believe that civil rights protections only extend to groups defined by immutable characteristics and religion (which they claim gets included because it is mentioned in the Constitution). This is simply a lie. It has no bearing in reality. Mutability is not a prerequisite for civil rights protection. Civil rights are creations of statute and can be bestowed upon whatever group a legislature wants to protect. For example, federal law protects against discrimination based on the mutable condition of pregnancy – which include both being pregnant and not being pregnant. Colorado protects workers from being discriminated against based on their recreational activities. California forbids discrimination against workers who speak out on matters of public policy. And there are many, many examples.

Mutability is one non-decisive factor in one component of judicial analysis of an Equal Protection Clause claim. But even in that context, groups defined by mutable characteristics may receive greater judicial protection while other groups with immutable characteristics may receive the minimum.

The whole argument is a deception and the Christian Right gets away with it b/c they know that Americans are ignorant about their legal system and are not going to parse the issue.

The main issue is not whether a small number of homosexuals somewhere in the world have truly converted after 7 years of religiously motivated effort. The issue is whether homosexual orientation is a fundamental part of a person’s identity and is not something that can be altered as a matter of convenience. So I think that we should turn these results around. Rather than let the other side turn this into a game of “gotcha” in which even 1 genuine conversion proves that homosexuality is mutable, I think we should argue that, even assuming the study is legitimate and the results accurate, such a low success rate following such a long treatment period for a highly motivated group proves that homosexuality is not mutable for the vast majority of gays. Consider: if it were suddenly possible for 1 in 1,000 African Americans to “turn white” if only they would alter their self-identity, change their religion, and listen to Pat Boone music 3X/week for 7 years, would that justify striking African Americans from civil rights laws or recognizing them as a discrete group in society?

]]>By: Mark F.http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107441
Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:43:54 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107441Nobody really disputes that motivated people can change their behavior, but being celibate or forcing oneself to have sex with the opposite sex is not a change of orientation. It’s pretty simple.
]]>By: Priya Lynnhttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107430
Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:37:22 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107430Outstanding posts, Theo and Patrick.
]]>By: Patrick Hoganhttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/09/28/37482/comment-page-1#comment-107420
Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:07:03 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37482#comment-107420NOM, as is their custom with things that for which they want plausible deniability in the public sphere but which they want to get out to their followers, posted the link and excerpt without independent comment. The excerpt, of course, avoided the cautions that the success numbers are presumed by the authors to be overly-optimistic, that 40% of the participants have dropped out, that the population was highly motivated and small, and that the authors have explicitly stated that the results do not mean that anyone — much less everyone — can change from gay to straight, or that any given individual can change at all.

It’s also worth noting that there are independent, fairly reliable means of determining physiological attraction — such as MRI scans while viewing selected images designed to stimulate attraction response. I have yet to hear of any ex-gay who is willing to use such means to prove a change in orientation. Why — if they are being honest about a change in orientation rather than simply a change in behavior — has no ex-gay submitted to such a test?

Is there a link to that story on the “converted” guy who came forward?

On the study,I can’t help but notice that the authors retreat to the same deliberately vague verbiage that Exodus employs, i.e., “change” is “possible”. That is intended to convey that a gay person has a reasonable chance of converting to straight. What it actually means is that after years of effort and religious conversion, a shift of any magnitude on the Kinsey scale might be the outcome for at least one human being on the planet.

It is also worth noting that these participants are an extremely motivated and very religious group. Not only are they pursuing conversion, but they have stuck with the effort for at least 7 years if not longer. I believe that they were still in the program at the time the study last reported in. They are dramatically unrepresentative of the general population or the gay population.

Whatever % actually converted greater than zero would have absolutely no bearing on expected results when such efforts are applied to the population of gays and lesbians. It would make as much sense to say that because 5% of applicants for the US Special Forces – drawn from volunteers from the very best of the 3 branches of the armed forces – actually make it, there is a 5% chance for any American to make it in.

I’d also note that this is all self-reported. No participant has any incentive to report failure and all have great incentives to report success. Reporting failure means undermining the program and discouraging gays from seeking healing in Christ, and so arguably is itself sinful. And reporting failure means disappointing the program’s leaders and shaming oneself with respect to other participants. And if this weren’t enough, both authors of the study to whom the data are provided are conservative Christians. This is not to say that the responses are skewed; it is only to note that all the incentives to misreport flow in one direction.