I don't understand the hostility towards supplements. If science tells us there are metabolic benefits to be gained from green tea taken in capsule form, or heart benefits from fish oil capsules, or strength training applications to creatine, there is no reason to avoid them. They are not a substitute for real food, but rather, as the name implies, a supplement to them.

I think Old Rooster must just be trying to stir things up.Even the historically ultraconservative AMA has recently changed their longstanding position on supplement use.Here's an excerpt of a news article discussing their new postion (sorry I know it's kinda long):

All adults should take a daily multivitamin, according to research published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. The recommendation is a reversal of the journal's long-standing position that multivitamins were unnecessary because essential nutrients could be obtained in the diet.

The authors, two Harvard Medical School researchers who reviewed 150 scientific studies from 1966 to early 2002, concluded that people who take vitamins might protect themselves from certain chronic diseases. For example, they reported that inadequate levels of antioxidant vitamins A, C, and E may increase heart disease and cancer risk; low levels of folic acid and vitamins B6 and B12 are risk factors for heart disease, neural tube defects, and colon and breast cancer; and that inadequate vitamin D intake contributes to osteoporosis and bone fractures.

"This may not sound like a real breakthrough in terms of exciting new ground broken, but in fact it is," said Annette Dickinson, Ph.D., vice president, scientific and regulatory affairs for the Washington, D.C.-based Council for Responsible Nutrition. "Many physicians have endorsed specific supplements for specific populations, but going beyond that to recommend that the entire population would benefit from a good solid multivitamin is news."

It is the first time in 20 years that JAMA has reviewed its stance on vitamin supplementation. Although the media has portrayed the JAMA article as an about-face on its anti-vitamin position, Dickinson sees it as a progression. "We've just come to a critical mass where the population that would benefit from [multivitamins] is now large enough, and the evidence is solid enough, that it really warrants an across-the-board recommendation."

Most of the "multis" people buy are in tablet form. More often than not, tablets, which are compressed with binders and fillers at pressures sometimes as high as 50,000 pounds per square inch pass right through the body, undissolved. Remember, it doesn't matter how much of a supplement you put in your mouth. What matters is how much of that supplement you actually absorb.Calcium has proven to be one of the main culprits that prevents mineral absorption.. When taken together with other minerals, calcium blocks up to 70% of their absorption. A Very serious athlete, who is very often low or deficient in one or more trace minerals, the lesson should be very clear. Multi-mineral preparations are usually a waste of money. They do not provide an adequate source of trace mineral nutrition.

Most of the "multis" people buy are in tablet form. More often than not, tablets, which are compressed with binders and fillers at pressures sometimes as high as 50,000 pounds per square inch pass right through the body, undissolved.

As far as the dissolving issue, I don't have my multi here at the office. But out of curiosity, I just pulled open my office desk drawer, pulled out my bottle of zinc which reads "Laboratory tested to dissolve within 45 minutes." The bottle of magnesium reads the same.

Most of the "multis" people buy are in tablet form. More often than not, tablets, which are compressed with binders and fillers at pressures sometimes as high as 50,000 pounds per square inch pass right through the body, undissolved. Remember, it doesn't matter how much of a supplement you put in your mouth. What matters is how much of that supplement you actually absorb.Calcium has proven to be one of the main culprits that prevents mineral absorption.. When taken together with other minerals, calcium blocks up to 70% of their absorption. A Very serious athlete, who is very often low or deficient in one or more trace minerals, the lesson should be very clear. Multi-mineral preparations are usually a waste of money. They do not provide an adequate source of trace mineral nutrition.

Dr D - You have a number of unrelated issues going on here none of which are entirely accurate. While it is accurate to state that many tablets are produced under high pressure, most reputable manufacturers (notice that I did not say supplement marketing companies who are farming out manufacturing to the lowest bidder) follow USP production standards for dissolution and disintegration which state that a tablet must break down fully in a pH equivalent to stomach acid in 45 minutes or less.At the same time one must keep in mind that there are a huge number of factors that influence dissolution and disintegration of any supplement including but not limited to the general health of the individual, the age of the individual, the pH of the individual, other foods consumed at the same time (such as fiber), etc.With that said there are a couple of general rules of thumb that anyone can follow to help maximize absorption of multis...1) Always choose a product from a major manufacturer2) Always choose a product with the longest possible shelf date3) Store your supplements in a cool dry place away from heat, humidity, and light4) Consume within 6 months of opening5) Always take multis with food as the body needs a larger volume of food to trigger sufficient digestive enzyme product for maximum absorption6) Consume your multi with protein as the body needs higher acid levels to absorb minerals

In respect to Calcium, keeping it brief, remember that the body is a tightly closed system meaning that it will only uptake what it needs when it needs it so to make a blanket statement for the entire population of 70% blockage is simply not accurate.

Lastly, the vast majority of multis are combinations of vitamins and essential "macro" minerals - not trace minerals.

While there are a few multis that do include trace minerals, generally speaking, if you want to supplement with trace minerals you need a separate product.

And in my personal opinion, I would be very careful with most trace mineral supplements on the market as independent studies have shown a disturbingly high level of lead and/or arsenic (both of which are naturally occurring).

So yes, whole foods are ideally our best source of nutrition, with overfarming, depleted soil conditions, foods that sit long periods in storage exposed to adverse conditions, and an increasing dependence on processed and "fast" foods, taking a daily multi provides good, inexpensive "nutrition insurance" for most individuals - a postion now supported and endoresed even by the ultraconservative AMA.

Dr D - You have a number of unrelated issues going on here none of which are entirely accurate. While it is accurate to state that many tablets are produced under high pressure, most reputable manufacturers (notice that I did not say supplement marketing companies who are farming out manufacturing to the lowest bidder) follow USP production standards for dissolution and disintegration which state that a tablet must break down fully in a pH equivalent to stomach acid in 45 minutes or less.At the same time one must keep in mind that there are a huge number of factors that influence dissolution and disintegration of any supplement including but not limited to the general health of the individual, the age of the individual, the pH of the individual, other foods consumed at the same time (such as fiber), etc.With that said there are a couple of general rules of thumb that anyone can follow to help maximize absorption of multis...1) Always choose a product from a major manufacturer2) Always choose a product with the longest possible shelf date3) Store your supplements in a cool dry place away from heat, humidity, and light4) Consume within 6 months of opening5) Always take multis with food as the body needs a larger volume of food to trigger sufficient digestive enzyme product for maximum absorption6) Consume your multi with protein as the body needs higher acid levels to absorb minerals

In respect to Calcium, keeping it brief, remember that the body is a tightly closed system meaning that it will only uptake what it needs when it needs it so to make a blanket statement for the entire population of 70% blockage is simply not accurate.

Lastly, the vast majority of multis are combinations of vitamins and essential "macro" minerals - not trace minerals.

While there are a few multis that do include trace minerals, generally speaking, if you want to supplement with trace minerals you need a separate product.

And in my personal opinion, I would be very careful with most trace mineral supplements on the market as independent studies have shown a disturbingly high level of lead and/or arsenic (both of which are naturally occurring).

So yes, whole foods are ideally our best source of nutrition, with overfarming, depleted soil conditions, foods that sit long periods in storage exposed to adverse conditions, and an increasing dependence on processed and "fast" foods, taking a daily multi provides good, inexpensive "nutrition insurance" for most individuals - a postion now supported and endoresed even by the ultraconservative AMA.Jay

Great posts, both of them. I have been waiting for a voice of reason on this topic. There is a brand of militant "whole foodists" on this board who are almost violently anti-supplement and view information to the contrary as the result of an industry-wide conspiracy. It's nice to see them being put in their place with solid information. Thanks and keep posting.

Good post Jay, if anything there's more reasons now that ever to take supplements in addition to a variety of whole foods. Personally I won't ever have the time every day to make sure I eat my blueberries for anti-oxidants and B-vitamins, drink my green tea for ECGC, eat an orange for my vitamin C, milk for my calcium, etc. etc. Unless you're doing this consistently Dr. D, Old Rooster and whoever, then you have every reason to take a multi at the very least.

Also, there's a home test you can do to make sure your vitamins disolve the way they're supposed to - I'm not sure exactly how its done, but you basically mix water and vinegar (I think), and something else to mimic the acidity of the stomach. If you're vitamin disolves the way it should, then it will be basically gone within a 30-40 minute window. I think there's a way to account for the fat soluble vitamins being absorbed/broken down too but I don't remember the exact "experiment". If someone has heard of it, please post it.

Jay,You may have some good points. This is not a debate of who is right or wrong. I look at other factors. You know well as anyone else that most people buying Multi-Vitamins are purchasing something that could contain anything in it. Most vitamins are synthetic and not natural, which the body can not utilize because of the lack of synergistic nutrients and "non-fitting" key receptor sites. A synthetic vitamin looks the same as a natural under the micro-scope but acts completely different in the human body.As for bio-availibilty, we all have different needs and it's impossible to know how much an individual needs at any time. I just used calcium as an example but when you buy a general multi, they contain both macro and trace minerals. Below is the Mineral and Trace Element Absorption chart. the references are : Handbook of Vitamins, Minerals and Hormones by J.R. Kutsky &Trace Elements in Human and Animal Nutrition by J.E. Underwood

Is this the same Dr. D from the current IBE infamy? Even if its not, you might want to change your name brotha, most of the getbiggers that read the supplement board keep on the up and up on what's happening on the other boards out there...

Is this the same Dr. D from the current IBE infamy? Even if its not, you might want to change your name brotha, most of the getbiggers that read the supplement board keep on the up and up on what's happening on the other boards out there...