Israel Tests New Highly Lethal, Cancer-Causing Tungsten Bomb in Gaza

Hat tip to Sol Salbe for turning me on to the following story by Haaretz’s Meron Rapoport.

Forget about Israel being a “light unto the nations” as the seminal early Zionist thinker Ahad HaAm used to say. Think more like Nazi Germany and the Spanish Civil War. Besides an ideological affinity between Franco’s fascists and Hitler, the Fuhrer found that conflict a perfect testing ground for Germany’s new weapons technology. During the Civil War, the Luftwaffe first previewed the new technique of aerial bombardment to devastating effect in places like Guernica. Hitler and Goering got to test all of their new playtoys like the Messerschmitts, Junkers, and anti-tank cannons.

It seems that Israel has been using Gazans in precisely the same way since its invasion following the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. The weapon it has tested, known by the acronym DIME (Dense Inert Metal Explosive), works to horrifying effect:

An investigative report to be aired on Italian television Wednesday raises the possibility that Israel has used an experimental weapon in the Gaza Strip in recent months, causing especially serious physical injuries, such as amputated limbs and severe burns.

Just to be clear about my analogy above (for the sake of the Little Green Footballs harpies among my readers), I did not intend to say that Israel as a whole is like Franco’s Spain or the U.S. like Nazi Germany. I merely meant to make an analogy to the ways in which this particular weapon was developed and possibly “lent out” to the IDF for experimental purposes.

The weapon is similar to one developed by the U.S. military, known as DIME, which causes a powerful and lethal blast, but only within a relatively small radius…

The investigation, by Rai24news, follows reports by Gaza-based doctors of inexplicably serious injuries. The doctors reported an exceptionally large number of wounded who lost legs, of completely burned bodies and injuries unaccompanied by metal shrapnel. Some of the doctors also claimed that they removed particles from wounds that could not be seen in an x-ray machine.

Dr. Habas al-Wahid, head of the emergency room at the Shuhada al-Aqsa hospital, in Deir el-Balah, told the reporters that the legs of the injured were sliced from their bodies “as if a saw was used to cut through the bone.” There were signs of heat and burns near the point of the amputation, but no signs that the dismemberment was caused by metal fragments.

Dr. Juma Saka, of Shifa Hospital, in Gaza City, said the doctors found small entry wounds on the bodies of the wounded and the dead. According to Saka, a powder was found on the victims’ bodies and in their internal organs.

The fruits of DIME (credit: Air Force Research Laboratory)

Haaretz quotes U.S. military websites which describe DIME and how it works:

According to the official website of a U.S. air force laboratory, it is a “focused lethality” weapon, which aims to accurately destroy the target while causing minimum damage to the surrounding.

According to the site, the projectile comprises a carbon-fiber casing filled with tungsten powder and explosives. In the explosion, tungsten particles – a metal capable of conducting very high temperatures – spread over a radius of four meters [12 feet] and cause death.

According to the U.S.-based website Defense-Tech, “the result is an incredibly destructive blast in a small area” and “the destructive power of the mixture causes far more damage than pure explosive.” It adds that “the impact of the micro-shrapnel seems to cause a similar but more powerful effect than a shockwave.”

In the case of the SDB [Small Diameter Bomb], that gives a destructive radius of about 25 feet.

So from a purely layperson’s perspective, this weapon seems designed to kill anything within a 12-25 foot radius (depending on which source you believe) and not kill anything outside it. But unlike other more conventional weapons with less lethality, it would essentially leave almost nothing or no one alive within that sphere.

If I understand it correctly, the tungsten fibers act with such savage penetrating force they become, in effect, circular saws which sever limbs from the body. The Defense Tech site calls them “micro-shrapnel.” Is this beyond ghoulish or what? Israel has already committed violence worthy of war crimes in Lebanon this summer. It appears that it also wishes the world to see it as the Frankenstein monster of military technology. If this doesn’t add a Frankenstein factor, I don’t know what will:

It is believed that the weapon is highly carcinogenic and harmful to the environment.

In a study designed to simulate shrapnel injuries, pellets of weapons-grade tungsten alloy were implanted in 92 rats. Within five months all the animals [T.O.-emphasis mine] developed a rare cancer called rhabdomyosarcoma

I do hope that the Gazan DIME victims and their doctors realize that they are at extremely high risk for developing cancer. So there you have it: a weapon designed to kill more efficiently which inadvertently becomes an environmental disaster for anyone unluckly enough to have been innocent and struck by it. Do you think the IDF will be offering free medical treatment to the Gazans who develop cancer due to this odious weapon?

A University of Arizona cancer researcher had this to say about the cancer risk:

“My opinion is that there needs to be much more research on the health effects of tungsten before the military increases its usage.”

You can see why it’s so attractive for the Air Force to farm out this weapon to Israel which has no compunction about causing a few cancer cases among Palestinians. The IAF doesn’t need to wait for “more research on the health effects” of DIME. “Bombs away” is their motto.

Given what we’ve come to expect from IDF spokespeople I half expected to hear them call DIME a “humanitarian weapon” because it supposedly doesn’t kill indiscriminately, but rather kills a specific target in a small geographic area. You can bet your bottom dollar you’re eventually going to hear DIME called a precision or targeted munition. And the IDF will tout its new ability to kill better and cleaner.

I’d also have thought that the IDF would flat out deny use of the new weapon especially since it’s apparently based on a U.S. designed munition. One would think Israel would like to keep such stuff hush-hush. Apparently not:

Israel Air Force Maj.-Gen (res.) Yitzhak Ben-Israel, formerly head of the IDF’s weapons-development program, told the Italian reporters that “one of the ideas [behind the weapon] is to allow those targeted to be hit without causing damage to bystanders or other persons.”

…Ben-Israel told the Italian reporters that “this is a technology that allows the striking of very small targets.”

In some small way, the IDF has validated my analogy between Gaza and Franco’s Spain with this statement made during the Lebanon war:

“This [the Lebanon war] is more like the Spanish Civil War,” says Daniel Seaman, an Israeli government spokesman. “What we are seeing is a series of conflicts that foreshadow a future world conflict, just as the Spanish Civil war prefigured
the Second World War.”

And if the killing fields of Gaza and Lebanon are like pre-WWII Spain, why not use the natives as guinea pigs to test out weapons we’ll be using in that “future world conflict?”

The new weapon is so advanced that international law doesn’t appear to know what to make of it:

The report says that the weapon is not banned by international law, especially since it has not been officially tested.

One wonders what role or connection the U.S. military plays in all this. Did the IDF get the technology from the U.S.? Did it develop the weapon separately from the U.S.? Did, perhaps, the U.S. use the IDF in precisely the same way as Hitler used Franco’s soldiers–to test new weapons which it cannot yet test in battlefield conditions?

Happily for the U.S. military, Israel does not feel bound by the same moral constraints that sometimes (though much more rarely now) bind our forces. Therefore, it would’ve been oh so convenient for Rummy’s guys to test this thing out on Gazan guinea pigs. After all, what’s the blood of a few lowly Palestinians worth these days?

If this were southern Lebanon, Nasrallah could launch a few missiles against Israel to make it pay a price for such egregious disrespect of Arab lives. But as it is, Palestinian rocketeers have weapons little better than glorified slingshots compared to DIME. They cannot exact much of a price for Israel’s depredations against the Palestinian people.

Reading this passage from a Navy League of the U.S. website, one sees that DIME was practically designed with densely-packed urban Gaza in mind:

Under a project titled Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME), Dahlgren scientists are studying the effects of adding dense metallic particles, such as tungsten, to a high-explosive chemical mixture. According to tests performed at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., the detonation of such a mixture shows increased deadly effects at a slightly greater range from the center of blast, contrasted with conventional explosives. But the DIME mixture’s lethality falls sharply a short range from the blast center, reducing the chance of destroying something other than the intended target.

The DIME concept is particularly interesting to the Navy for use in urban areas. Cook explains: “a normal blast-frag warhead has high-explosive putting fragments out. You get a high probability of kill, but it lasts for quite a distance. That means that if you were to drop a blast-frag weapon in the middle of a city block you would be doing a lot of damage in an urban area,” which is not always the effect U.S. forces want to achieve. With DIME, the blast effect equals that of a blast-fragment weapon, but the chances of collateral damage appear to be substantially less, said Cook.

If you read the military-oriented websites discussing DIME you note that none of them talk about the effect of the impact on the intended victim. They all tout the weapon’s greater precision and lower lethality at longer distances. That seems a perfect illustration of the military mind which hardly thinks of its victims except in terms of how to kill them more efficiently.

Marc Garlasco, Human Rights Watch’s resident bomb blast expert, points out that the Army’s intention of reducing casualties may be precisely negated by using DIME in urban areas:

While Human Rights Watch is supportive of the US military’s commitment to reducing civilian casualties, collateral damage as they call it, it is unfortunate that these weapons are being developed specifically for use in densely populated areas which may negate the intended effect.

If you’re trying to kill a bad guy in an urban setting, does the IDF not realize that innocent bystanders will be highly likely within the 12-25 kill zone? And if the weapon provides for increased lethality within that zone might it not be possible that you would kill more, rather than less innocents by using it in the most densely packed urban environment on earth, Gaza? And the testimony by Gaza doctors of the wounds which the new Israeli munition caused seem to bear this out. Unless of course every single victim brought to their hospitals was a Palestinian bad guy.

The article at the RAI site is very short, as it seems to be an introductory blurb for a video report on the subject. There is an English version of the article here. There is a link to the video report, but I’m afraid I don’t have time to watch that at the moment. Sorry.

The article also has a link in the right side bar to a photo page of some of the victims. Text on that page translates as follows:

“These photos – taken in Gaza hospital during the months of July and August – show the bodies of people probably struck by DIME (Dense Inert Metal explosive) bombs. As the pictures seem to show, the blast from these devices causes a wave of impact angled to strike the victims in the lower limbs or the genital area.

According to doctor Joma al-Saqaa of the al-Shifa Hospital, Gaza, metallic dust can be detected in the pictures, which would make the wounds shown consistent with the believed effects of the tungsten DIME bomb”.

BUT BEFORE YOU GO THERE BE SURE YOU REALLY WANT TO BECAUSE THE PHOTOS ARE AWFUL. Really, they’ll make you sick.

I’ll try to look at the video and a related Italian article they have linked on the same page later tonight.

OK, not much to add. I can’t actually view the RAI video report itself: it just gives me a “corrupt file” warning. If the photos are anything to go by, I’m quite relieved I can’t see the video. On the RAINews Italian page where the report is introduced, there is a link on the right side bar “Misna conferma RaiNews24 su nuove armi israeliane”/MISNA corroborates RaiNews24 on new Israeli weapons”. (Misna is a news agency that gathers news from Third World countries from relief workers and local leaders of civil society). The link is to a MISNA press release which translates: ““What is certain is that during the months of July and August the Israeli Air Force used in the Gaza Strip different or new weapons, that caused wounds not seen before. We documented tens of cases of wounded people who lost both lower limbs due to causes that were very difficult to explain”. This is what MISNA was told by Dr Hassinen Mouawia, director-general of emergency medical services in the Gaza Strip at the PA Ministry of Health. For several hours “Rainews 24” – the ‘all news’ satellite channel of Italian state TV – has been showing its new investigative report, which claims that in the last few months Israeli forces have been using a new type of weapon with carbon fragments and tungsten powder. “In Gaza’s main hospitals, like the Shifa Hospital, our medical colleagues have treated wounds that presented small holes, especially in the legs; in several other cases, metallic fragments of various sizes were found inside the body, beyond the size of the small wounds”, explains Dr Mouawia, who is a cardio-vascular surgeon. “Personally I have collected on a CD documentation concerning 86 cases that I am prepared to show in Italy or abroad in order to make known what has been going on in the last few months, while public opinion has been diverted by the conflict in Lebanon” adds the doctor. “We also believe Israel has used chemical weapons, as evidenced by a number of cases, which we have also documented, of people with very severe burns to internal organs but with no external injuries,” Mouawia also told MISNA, by telephone from Gaza City. According to the ‘Rainews 24’ investigation, the “new” weapon used in Gaza is very similar to the DIME (Dense Inert Metal Explosive) explosive, developed by the U.S. weapons industry and defined on the internet site of a U.S. aeronautical laboratory as a “focused lethality” munition, i.e. capable of destroying an object while causing minimal damage to the surrounding area. According to the testimonials in the report, those wounded by this weapon have reported injuries and amputations to the lower limbs, which were all inflicted at the same height (a little below the genitals) and in an identical manner. “In the hospitals of Gaza” – adds doctor Mouawia – “doctors are facing a really difficult situation, made worse by the siege in which we are forced to live in the Gaza Strip as in an open air prison: many of the wounded have died because of the seriousness of the wounds caused by the weapons that are ‘different’ to the ones traditionally used until now by the Israeli Air Force” he also told MISNA, adding that no new cases had been recorded after the month of August. According to the director, since the abduction by Palestinian extremists of an Israeli NCO last June 25, 286 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip and another 4,200 wounded.” [end of translation]. MISNA also has a summary in English of the RAINews broadcast.

I am deeply grateful for Diane’s translation & follow up on the RaiNews piece. If any of my readers blog, pls. let your portion of the blogosphere know about this heinous crime against Palestinians, and by extension, humanity. If you have the stomach for it, pls. look at the Images of the DIME-caused wounds. But I warn you, as Diane warned me, that they are horrific and not for the faint of heart.

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October 11, 2006 9:42 PM

Jeff

Mr. Silverstein,

You are a traitor to your own people. But I learned long ago not to expect anything more from the crazy leftist Jews in this country. Its people like you that make me feel embarrassed for my religion and Jewish culture. Its traitorous people like you that handed the Russians the plans for the atomic bomb. Its people like you that continue to find some sort of moral ambiguity concerning the treatment of the Gazans (or the Palestinians as a whole).

The Lebanese deserved what they got. They’re lucky the IDF didn’t flatten the rest of that shitty little country.

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October 12, 2006 1:15 PM

alan

A good day for Israel and her few supporters, a bad day for communist, elitist, self-hating Jews and the rest of the Jew-hating world. I’ll sleep better tonight knowing that Israel sometimes takes common sense steps to protect herself from the hundreds of millions of Muslims and their supporters (including Tikkun) who wish her destruction.

If I wanted to embarrass the knucklehead pro-Israel right by penning a truly disgusting, racist & idiotic piece of prose I couldn’t have picked a better model to filch from than this dumbass. In case anyone’s wondering, I didn’t do that. I have his IP address right here to prove the “authenticity” (if you can call it that) of Jeff’s comment.

So thanks, Jeff, for proving what idiots you & the LGF crowd are right in print where everyone who knows better than you can read yr poison.

Alan & Jeff must be buddies. Or is it a coincidence they posted equally meretricious nonsense here within 6 minutes of ea. other?

Alan is a particular form of pro-rightist idiot since he makes the entirely specious claim that this blog (not “Tikkun” moron, but “Tikun”–another rightist who mistakes this blog for Tikkun Magazine, no doubt) advocates the destruction of Israel. Hardly.

Because I do not want the IDF to fry the internal organs, sever the legs, and give cancer to Palestinians–that makes me an enemy of Israel? Because I do not want Israel to present its most ugly, amoral side to the world–that makes me its enemy? Get real. My Israel credentials are far stronger than yours & I have the educational, professional and Judaic experience to prove it. What’ve YOU got? You wave your Israeli flag in the annual Israel Independence Day rally. You post pathetic, hateful comments in weblogs, you read the dribble at Little Green Footballs. Big deal. What do you DO on behalf of Israel or your people (if you’re Jewish)?

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October 12, 2006 2:00 PM

Jeff

All Communists hide behind the “racist” word, it further proves my point of how ashamed I am of Tikkun.

“Communist???” You’re more of a moron than you initially let on. Or are liberal Democrats ipso facto Communists in your wingnut world??

No, your racism resides in this little exemplar of tolerance:

Lebanese deserved what they got. They’re lucky the IDF didn’t flatten the rest of that shitty little country.

And once more moron–this site is not Tikkun, nor Tikun. It’s Tikun Olam.

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October 12, 2006 2:57 PM

Mike Michelson

The only contribution the Palestinians have made to technology was the idea to include ball bearings in their bombs to maim as many people as possible. When the Palestinians decide to stop sending suicide bombers into Israel and stop rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon, they will be able to live in peace and not have to worry about Israel defending herself.

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October 12, 2006 3:32 PM

Dan Mcmaster

This is an ugly day in Israel history, this kind of act that marks a good army to be named war criminal.
I hope that you are not dreaming if you think that using DIME will bring you peace , you should think of the Palestinian reaction the same way that you will react if you or your kids suffer from a weapon like that.
Thanks for the Translation and the info

The only contribution the Palestinians have made to technology was the idea to include ball bearings in their bombs to maim as many people as possible. When the Palestinians decide to stop sending suicide bombers into Israel and stop rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon, they will be able to live in peace and not have to worry about Israel defending herself.

This seems like the 100th comment along these lines in this blog over the yrs. It’s no more true or accurate a representation of reality now than it was the first time someone wrote this drivel here.

First, Palestinians have not sent a suicide bomber to Israel in ages, perhaps a yr or more (but I don’t remember the exact period of time it’s been). That particular tactic is not being used by Palestinian militants. Though if things continue to disintegrate then that might change.

Regarding rocket attacks, do you really believe that shelling mostly empty Israel terrain with practically useless Katyushas warrants using DIME weapons as a counter-measure?? If you do you are a callous, inhuman brute.

If Palestinians stop resisting Israeli Occupation that Occupation will not end. Palestinians will have nothing to show for it. They will gain no rights from Israel. They will not gain the state they desire. They will only gain the “benefit” of living under the relentless heel of Israeli Occupation. Israel has shown no readiness to negotiate with Palestinians whether or not they renounce violence. So of what benefit would your stupid advice to them be?

Don’t get me wrong. I am opposed to Palestinian rocket attacks (& to suicide attacks when they were mounted in the past). But I’m in favor of Palestinian national self-determination & an end to Occupation. I see no way right now that Israel is willing to consider anything like this whether or not Palestinians resist.

That being said, if Hamas did renounce violence (which I’d like to see happen) I’m convinced that there would be a strong European (& perhaps U.S., though that’s by no means assured) pressure on Israel to negotiate & settle the conflict. But Israel would never do this willingly or voluntarily.

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October 13, 2006 11:14 AM

Palastinain

Action and reaction, just who to blame…
Stop occupation, remove settlements, Allow a true Palestinian state, and no Palestinian will think to be a suicide bomber.

Allow a true Palestinian state, and no Palestinian will think to be a suicide bomber.

Perfectly true, Palestinian. And thanks for your comment.

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October 13, 2006 4:37 PM

Mike

Just a quick note to Palestinian and Richard Silverstein: You maintain that if Israel leaves the “occupied territories” and removes the settlements a peaceful Palestinian state could be created. Prior to 1967, the Palestinians occupied all the land they now claim they want and half of Jerusalem. Jordan owned the west bank and Egypt owned the Gaza strip. There were no settlements and yet no Palestinian state was created. Why? The answer is simple. The Palestinian state is a ruse. The true wish of the Palestinians was and is to destroy Israel. Well my friends, as my friend from the Ozarks once said, ” Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which had get full. “

[edit. This is a very rough translation from the ever gracious Diane Mason of this comment:

“your sensitivity is hopeful, but that painful display of hatred… that sees the human race in terms of ideology, race or religion, the quest for power by such irrational intolerance, seems to have no end. nevertheless good human beings always appear though not always in the right place. The enemy is in our hearts as Gandhi used to say.”]

The Palestinian state is a ruse. The true wish of the Palestinians was and is to destroy Israel.

More ultra-Israel pablum. No Palestinian state was created because Palestinians didn’t see themselves yet as a nation. They do now. The rest of the world recognizes them as such. Even Israel does though it’s trying to hold off as long as possible fr. providing this nation with a state of its own.

It’s a funny thing when you think about the USA. It had fr. the dawn of white settlement to 1776 to create a nation and it didn’t happen. It must’ve been a ruse to destroy their colonial master, England.

I usually talk about people like Mike taking a dump at this blog when they write dreck like this. In this case, with his friend fr. the Ozarks he’s done this literally as well. Why don’t you take yr dump somewhere else next time?

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October 16, 2006 8:02 PM

Leo

Horrible, horrible story.
I can understand America wants to keep this area of the world unstable but I really dont get why us Europeans dont act vs. the Israeli’s and Americans.
The world is turning upside down. Acting immoral and completely lawless (like bush and israel) doesnt make them any better then other terrorists.

Where are the times us Europeans looked up too America. All we see now is a rogue state and a criminal office.

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October 19, 2006 2:39 AM

Ernie

Re: “Regarding rocket attacks, do you really believe that shelling mostly empty Israel terrain with practically useless Katyushas warrants using DIME weapons as a counter-measure?? If you do you are a callous, inhuman brute.”

Really? Do you mean that because the people shooting rockets at Israel are not hurting Israel effectively that Israel should return the favor? If the Palestinians could they would blow up as many Israelis as possible. As has been said, what do you think our country would do if rockets were being fired from across the Canadian border? What do you think China would do if they were being rocketed from Russia or Japan or Mongolia?

There’s a simple way to stop Israel from using this stuff, if they are. Stop the rockets, stop the attacks. Poof, no more Dime explosions.

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October 19, 2006 6:15 AM

jeff54

“First, Palestinians have not sent a suicide bomber to Israel in ages, perhaps a yr or more (but I don’t remember the exact period of time it’s been). That particular tactic is not being used by Palestinian militants.”

Wrong, there just haven’t been any sucessful attacks, but it’s not for lack of trying. Just as recently as Oct 11th a miliatnt was shot in Gaza wearing a suicide belt.

“No Palestinian state was created because Palestinians didn’t see themselves yet as a nation.”

Really what did they see themslves as? No Palestinian state was created because the Palestinians never saw themselves as a seperate people from any of the other Arab peoples in the area. The Arab League didn’t care a bit for the Palestinians as long as they were in control of the area. Once Israel took control it was a different matter. After the ’67 war the Palestinians could have had a state. Care to tell me the Arab League response Richard????

Just as recently as Oct 11th a miliatnt was shot in Gaza wearing a suicide belt.

First, you’ll have to provide a credible link to prove that what you SAY happened did indeed happen. Second, Hamas has not sent any suicide bombers in nearly 2 yrs. If there was a suicide bomber as you claim I’m certain he was not connected to Hamas. There certainly are splinter groups like Islamic Jihad or PRC which do not adhere to strict discipline. Third, you’ve provided what you claim is evidence of a single attempted suicide attack. One incident does not prove a policy or a trend.

In addition, I’m not saying that Palestinians have stopped resisting the Occupation. Of course they haven’t. That won’t happen until Olmert agrees to sit down & resolve the conflict which he adamantly refuses to do. So yes, there will be violence on both sides until that happens.

No Palestinian state was created because the Palestinians never saw themselves as a seperate [sic] people from any of the other Arab peoples in the area

And you know this how? Were you a Palestinian living during the period in question? Did you have family who were who told you this? Have you pondered original Palestinian sources to derive this judgment? Where do you get the unmitigated gall to declare what Palestinians thought about their own identity?

Besides, even IF what you say is correct (which it most decidedly is not) even you would have to concede that they HAVE seen themselves that way since the formation of the PLO around 1965. As I wrote, the American colonies did not see themselves as a potential separate nation until 1776. That left 150 yrs. in which they saw themselves as a colony of Great Britain. By what right did they assert nationhood since they’d previously acquiesced in their own colonial status?

You mean to say that merely because the Palestinians did not formally assert their right to nationhood until 1965 that they never may assert the right to do so? That’s an utterly preposterous proposition.

The Arab League didn’t care a bit for the Palestinians as long as they were in control of the area.

Betraying your ignorance, you are. The Arab League does not control any territory. It is a loose amalgam of Arab states, not a power in its own right. Besides, merely because another Arab nation did not recognize the rights of Palestinians to self-determination does not mean that they themselves cannot assert that right. This is a matter for Palestinians to determine, not for Egyptians or Jordanians (who, btw, as the last Arab power to control Palestinian territories has conceded to the PLO the right to determine what’s done with them).

After the ‘67 war the Palestinians could have had a state.

WRONG! Care to provide any original sources to validate yr. misshapen opinion? What actually happened was that Golda Meir decided NOT to approach Jordan after 1967 to negotiate peace because she was quite comfortable with the status quo after the war.

When Anwar Sadat secretly approached the Israelis before ’73 asking for peace negotiations he was rebuffed again by Meir. That’s why the 1973 war was fought. The 1979 peace treaty by which Israel withdrew fr. Sinai was the treaty Meir could’ve signed with Sadat sometime after ’67 or before ’73. The only difference is that 3,000 Israeli soldiers wouldn’t have had to lose their lives in the ’73 war to attain that ’79 treaty.

Second, Hamas has not sent any suicide bombers in nearly 2 yrs. If there was a suicide bomber as you claim I’m certain he was not connected to Hamas. There certainly are splinter groups like Islamic Jihad or PRC which do not adhere to strict discipline.

“Third, you’ve provided what you claim is evidence of a single attempted suicide attack. One incident does not prove a policy or a trend”.

OK now I’ve provided two. How many do you require?

“And you know this how? Were you a Palestinian living during the period in question? Did you have family who were who told you this? Have you pondered original Palestinian sources to derive this judgment? Where do you get the unmitigated gall to declare what Palestinians thought about their own identity?”

Gee Richard you have no problem saying “No Palestinian state was created because Palestinians didn’t see themselves yet as a nation” How do you know that Were you a Palestinian living during the period in question? What a hypocrite you are. You asked me for evidence now provide me with some. Certainly you can give me a literary or historical reference prior to 1920 can shows the Arabs living there considered themsleves a distinct group apart from Arabs living elsewhere in the region.

“You mean to say that merely because the Palestinians did not formally assert their right to nationhood until 1965 that they never may assert the right to do so? That’s an utterly preposterous proposition.”

And where exactly did make the proposition you claim I made????? I said no such thing, as a matter of fact I believe the Palestinians should have their own state.

“Betraying your ignorance, you are. The Arab League does not control any territory. It is a loose amalgam of Arab states, not a power in its own right.”

The PLO was a member of the Arab League as where Jordon, Egypt and Syria so certainly proclamations made by this group are very relevent. As a matter of fact the Arab League created the PLO. Who’s betraying their ignorence. I find in these debates as soon as the insults start to fly the other side realizes they have lost and have nothing left to argue with. But I am especially perplexed why someone who claims to “promote dialogue and mutual recognition” would so quickly resort to this. Please explain Richard.

“Care to provide any original sources to validate yr. misshapen opinion? What actually happened was that Golda Meir decided NOT to approach Jordan after 1967 to negotiate peace because she was quite comfortable with the status quo after the war.”

And when exactly did the Palestinians or Jordan or Egypt approach Israel ??? At this time the Arab stand was “no peace, no recognition, no negotiation” Once Jordan and Egypt backed away from this stand Israel traded land for peace. Israel had just been attacked in a clear attempt to destroy their country. They beat bake this attack and you think they should be the ones make offers when the other side is still claiming they don’t want peace????

“When Anwar Sadat secretly approached the Israelis before ‘73 asking for peace negotiations he was rebuffed again by Meir.”
Care to provide a source ?????

From the Haaretz article to which you link: Troops also arrested two Palestinians attempting to bomb a West Bank checkpoint. My claim (or what I intended to claim if it wasn’t clear) was that Palestinians have stopped suicide bombings WITHIN Israel. You’re talking about a suicide attack within the Territories & against a military target. We can argue about whether we’d like militants to stop all suicide attacks period. I’d like to see that. But my main interest is the stopping of suicide attacks within Israel–in other words against civilians. Your example does not disprove my claim. It merely proves that militants are attempting to resist occupation within their own Palestinian territory. While I would prefer not even to see these attacks, I find them more defensible because of the grounds I’ve outlined above. Where is you evidense of Hamas imposing “strict discipline” on these groups? Did I ever claim Hamas was invoking discipline on them? No. Why should I prove a contention I never made? Would I prefer an overarching authority to take control in Palestine & end such violence? Sure. But given the chaos created hand in hand by Israeli & U.S. strangulation (along with self-inflicted chaos by the Palestinians themselves), I fear that no one can impose order until conditions or circumstances change. How do you know that. Were you a Palestinian living during the period in question? What a hypocrite you are. No, but I studied the primary sources both Palestinian Arab & Jewish. Did you? If so, show me a source to prove yr view. I made an allowance for you to provide such a source yet you did not do so. Either you don’t have such a source or ignored what I wrote. I’m not in the custom of providing tutorials for people like you who don’t have sufficient command of the sources. There are many excellent historical sources which if read dispassionately will educate you on the questions on which you’ve shows ignorance. Hertzbergs various books about Zionism, the Arab Israel Reader by Laquer, etc. As Hillel said: “Now go and study.” I said no such thing, as a matter of fact I believe the Palestinians should have their own state. Then what are we arguing about? And when exactly did the Palestinians or Jordan or Egypt approach Israel ??? Remember the Rogers Plan? It died aborning. Israel had no interest in rocking the sweet boat in which it was sitting with control of the Territories. you think they should be the ones make offers when the other side is still claiming they don’t want peace???? Syria has very explicitly announced to Israel & the world that it wants peace. What counter-offer has Olmert made that is serious? An offer to negotiate that is encased in onerous pre-conditions is not a serious offer. Syria wants the Golan back & Israel is not prepared to give it back. That would be ‘territory for peace.’ If it was good enough for Israel when Egypt wanted Sinai back, then why isn’t it good enough for Israel in relation to Syria??? Regarding Sadat, this is common knowledge. I’m about to make dinner for my family & so can’t look now. Why don’t you do a Google search & I’m sure you’ll find the reference. I just heard Gersom Gorenberg say this in the context of his new book about the history of the settlements. Try using his name & Sadat in a Google search. You’ll find it I am sure. If not, I’ll try to help later.

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October 19, 2006 6:03 PM

jeff54

My claim (or what I intended to claim if it wasn’t clear) was that Palestinians have stopped suicide bombings WITHIN Israel.

But my 2nd link proved that your claim was wrong.

“Did I ever claim Hamas was invoking discipline on them? ”

Then who’s strict discipline were you refering to? Besides the real question is, is Hamas doing anything to prevent these attacks and as my post showed not only are they doing nothing they are happy to see them happen.

“No, but I studied the primary sources both Palestinian Arab & Jewish. Did you? If so, show me a source to prove yr view.”

Good then it should be no trick for soemone who has studied as much as you to provide a source. How can I provide a source for something I claim didn’t exist. You ask for sources and I provide them yet when I ask you for a source to back up your claims all you do is rant about how much you’ve read, give me a break what a tremendous cop out. Either give me a literary or historical reference prior to 1920 can shows the Arabs living there considered themsleves a distinct group apart from Arabs living elsewhere in the region or withdraw the claim.

“I’m not in the custom of providing tutorials for people like you who don’t have sufficient command of the sources.”

Is this more of how you ““promote dialogue and mutual recognition” Or is is just a lame attempt to deflect the fact that you can’t provide a source. I hope it’s the second.

Remember the Rogers Plan? It died aborning. Israel had no interest in rocking the sweet boat in which it was sitting with control of the Territories.

And the Rodgers plan shows how Egypt Syria and Jordan approached Israel for a peace offering. What a non sequitur. I ask about when Israel was approached by the people that attacked it in ’67 and you come back with a proposal by an American 2 years later.

Regarding Sadat, this is common knowledge. I’m about to make dinner for my family & so can’t look now.

Boy you’ll use any excuse not to provide a source for your claims 🙂

While you’re looking up the Sadat reference please think about your reply to this:
The PLO was a member of the Arab League as where Jordon, Egypt and Syria so certainly proclamations made by this group are very relevent. As a matter of fact the Arab League created the PLO.

And this:

But I am especially perplexed why someone who claims to “promote dialogue and mutual recognition” would so quickly resort to this. Please explain Richard.

How can I provide a source for something I claim didn’t exist. Now you’re engaging in sophistry. If you wish to claim that there was no sense of Palestinian Arabs being separate fr other Arabs you should be able to come up w. a source that proves your pt of view. You don’t get off the hook by the trick of saying since I’m claiming that something doesn’t exist then I don’t have to prove it. You do. You should be able to. The fact that you won’t means that either you can’t or you’re too lazy to do so. I’m not doing yr work for you. You made the first historical claim in this discussion. I asked for proof & you refused. I do extra historical work when someone doesn’t have the kind of attitude you display. Play nice & you’re treated nice. Besides, I detest these dry stupid historical exercises that prove nothing & lead nowhere. Tell me, have you read either of Hertzberg’s seminal works on Zionist thought? Have you read the Arab-Israeli Reader? If you haven’t, then don’t bother wasting anyone’s time. Do so, then you’ll be better prepared to argue whatever position you choose to argue. And you’ll be able to provide sources to prove what you claim as opposed to what you’re trying to do here–which is to merely state something is true w/o proving it. I ask about when Israel was approached by the people that attacked it in ‘67 and you come back with a proposal by an American 2 years later. Do you think Rogers was stupid enough as to not solicit the views of the Arab states before he presented his plan? Did or did not Israel let the Rogers Plan to die aborning? And further regarding Israeli policy post-67 from Wikipedia: According to Chaim Herzog, On June 19, 1967, the National Unity Government [of Israel] voted unanimously to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria in return for peace agreements. The Golans would have to be demilitarized and special arrangement would be negotiated for the Straits of Tiran. The government also resolved to open negotiations with King Hussein of Jordan regarding the Eastern border. [72] The Israeli decision was to be conveyed to the Arab nations by the United States. The US was informed of the decision, but not that it was to transmit it. There is no evidence of receipt from Egypt or Syria, and some historians claim that they may have never received the offer. [73] Regarding Sadat’s intentions pre-73 (this is again from Wikipedia): In 1971, Sadat, in response to an initiative by UN intermediary Gunnar Jarring, declared [ed., in writing] that if Israel committed itself to “withdrawal of its armed forces from Sinai and the Gaza Strip” and to implementation of other provisions of UN Security Council Resolution 242 as requested by Jarring, Egypt would then “be ready to enter into a peace agreement with Israel.” Israel responded that it would not withdraw to the pre-June 5, 1967 lines. Interesting that on June 19, 1967 Israel supposedly was prepared for a withdrawal from Sinai but never bothered to tell Egypt. While by 1971, it had no interest in returning territory to Egypt or any other party. I’m sure there’s some way you’d like to spin this so Israel doesn’t look like the party at fault. Dialogue is a 2 way street. You don’t want dialogue. You want a soap box. You don’t want to listen. You want to hector. I don’t dialogue with folks like you. But if you want “dialogue”… Read more »

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October 19, 2006 8:14 PM

sheik_jur_booty

“First, Palestinians have not sent a suicide bomber to Israel in ages, perhaps a yr or more (but I don’t remember the exact period of time it’s been). That particular tactic is not being used by Palestinian militants. Though if things continue to disintegrate then that might change.

Regarding rocket attacks, do you really believe that shelling mostly empty Israel terrain with practically useless Katyushas warrants using DIME weapons as a counter-measure?? If you do you are a callous, inhuman brute.”

First- call me a brute. Second, if you honestly do not think that Hamas and the Palestenians do not aid and enable suicide bombers you are nuts. This wish of the Palestenians and Hamas is the same as the majority of the Middle eastern nations, kill Israel.
DIME weapons and smart bombs are intended to be less lethal in general. I do not believe you can make a weapon (other than small arms) that will not cause collateral damage. What is YOUR idea of a perfect replacement weapon? A weapon now, not negotiation or cease fire but an actual weapon. The pictures that were posted about the DIME weapon were indeed terrible- but have you seen up close and personal photos of what a ball bearing, nail filled explosive does?
DIME is humane…….

if you honestly do not think that Hamas and the Palestenians [sic] do not aid and enable suicide bombers you are nuts.

Are there small groups of Palestinians who aid & abet potential suicide bombers? Sure. Are there small groups within Israel who aid & abet terror against Palestinians? Sure. What does it prove? That there are pockets of ignorant hatred in both societies which prefer a war to the death to living together amid compromises for the sake of inter-ethnic peace.

This wish of the Palestenians and Hamas is the same as the majority of the Middle eastern nations, kill Israel.

Either you are ignorant or you’re a liar. Egypt doesn’t want to kill Israel. Ditto Jordan. Assad has come right out & said many times in the past month or so that his goal is to live in peace with Israel rather than in perpetual war. The speaker of the Lebanese parliament & an ally of Hezbollah has just called for peace talks with Israel. So which is it–ignorance or lying for you to make the ridiculous claim you did?

DIME weapons and smart bombs are intended to be less lethal in general.

More ignorance. They are intended to be less lethal OUTSIDE their killing zone, but MORE lethal inside it. And if the munition is meant to be less lethal, can you explain to me all the horrible maiming & mutilation of victims who now lie with rotting organs & limbs in Gaza hospitals after being struck by DIME weapons?

What is YOUR idea of a perfect replacement weapon? A weapon now, not negotiation or cease fire but an actual weapon.

That’s my precise point. There IS NO ‘replacement weapon’ that will not kill innocents. The only “replacement” is diplomacy and negotiation. Weapons will not solve this conflict. Weapons will not keep Israel safe & secure. Peace will. It’s an age-old fact that you & the ultra-Israel crowd refuse to face.

have you seen up close and personal photos of what a ball bearing, nail filled explosive does?

Yes, they both are terrible weapons. But why are we debating the relative merits of different weapons systems. Instead, why aren’t we focussing all our energy on ensuring we have 2 societies in which such weapons cannot & will not be used. Again that gets us back to negotiation.

So why is it that Olmert refuses to negotiate with Abbas & Assad who are willing to find a peaceful resolution of each of their respective conflicts w. Israel?

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October 20, 2006 1:21 PM

David

Hi Richard, Although I consider myself to be a center-left Israeli I really don’t understand you. I mean I know you must have good intentions, but I really think that you have entered a cycle of discrediting whatever does not support your thesis that Israelis are the modern incarnation of nazism and that Hamas are a group of folk dancers. As an Israeli I must say I hate the situation we live in, but that does not render me blind to the very complex reality we are facing, and unfortunately simple answers to complex issues are usually not realistic, however good the intentions may be. Regaring the DIME weapons (if this is actually the case) I think that the outcry is injust. You have agreed that organs are mutilated by normal weaponry too, and I would ask you to consider the following to alternatives, given that the israeli governemnt is set to kill a militant who is about to launch another Qassam attack on Israeli towns (a Qassam can kill you know although its palestinian): Option 1 – Use a normal guided missile to target that person, given an hit accuracy of a few meters. The targeted person will be both mutilated and eventually dead. A bystander, let’s say it’s a 12 y/o standing 10 meters away gets hit by shrapnel and dies after 5 days in hospital. Option 2 – Use this DIME thing. The targeted person gets mutilated and dies. The 12 y/o bystander standing 10 meters away gets terribly frightened but is not hurt by the blast. Let’s get it straight, mutilations look terrible, are terrible and happen with all sorts of weapons, the may just look different, but are essentially the same thing. People lose organs from normal weapons all the time, you just don’t get to see it usually because it’s not a scoop. If using this weapon can reduce the number of people hot by it, provided that SOME weapon needs to be used, I would go for it if i had to make this terrible choice. Anyway, there is no need to use the language you were using because of this particular weapon, there are advantages to it too, and I am sure that the reasons for using it are the ones I mentioned. Israel is paying a heavy price for the large radius of distruction of ordinary weapons both internationally and domestically – I for one HATE reading about another innocent bystander hit unnecessarily. Regarding your question about Assad and Abbas, the answers are simple. Olmert will not meet Abbas before Gilad Shalit is released or he will be thrown out of office and encourage more kidnappings, and he has a responsibility. Olmert does not regard Syrian calls as serious so long as Syria keeps harboring Mashal, re-supplying Hizbullah and basically doing nothing to reaffirm that they actually mean that they want to live in peace with Israel. As soon as he tries to build some confidence between us, and peove that he is not bent on our demise, he will get more serious attention from everybody, including me. Who wouldn’t like a better world, and peace in Israel with our neighbors. You know, for all I care, and most the israelis I know we don’t give a s**t about the territories. I do however think it unrealistic to move 250,000 people out of their homes, however unfair it was to put them there in the first place. So we need to work out a just solution, and this will not happen while Hamas reiterates that they want to destroy Israel day… Read more »

you have entered a cycle of discrediting whatever does not support your thesis that Israelis are the modern incarnation of nazism [sic] and that Hamas are a group of folk dancers. David: This is a preposterous mischaracterization of my actual views. I am a progressive Zionist. I do not believe Israel has anything to do with Nazism. Never used the word in that context & never will. You must be confusing me with someone else. I’ll thank you for arguing with me only about views I actually hold & things I’ve actually said. As for Hamas, you may read many statements in this blog condemning violent acts by Hamas, Hezbollah & other groups which fight or have fought against Israel, esp. Israeli civilians. Regaring the DIME weapons…you have agreed that organs are mutilated by normal weaponry too Again, you’re not reading what I wrote–at least not very carefully. Conventional weapons kill & maim, yes. But they do not do so with the savagery & intensity of this new weapon. Why do you think the U.S. has not tested it in actual battlefield conditions? Because it doesn’t want to? Of course not. It knows that there would be a hue & cry fr. the international community that would bring the U.S. military into even more disrepute than it now enjoys. That’s why it’s farmed out the battlefield test to the IDF which has almost no moral compunctions in terms of which weapons it will use against its “targets.” Option 2 – Use this DIME thing. The targeted person gets mutilated and dies. The 12 y/o bystander standing 10 meters away gets terribly frightened but is not hurt by the blast. Let’s change the terms. Instead of standing 10 meters away the bystander is standing a mere 8 meters away, which is within the kill zone. Then both the militant AND the civilian are killed in the most savage death imaginable. Make no mistake, while conventional weapons kill, they do not kill as horrifically, as painfully & as hideously as DIME does. If using this weapon can reduce the number of people hot by it, provided that SOME weapon needs to be used W/o intending to you’ve gotten to the crux of the matter. No weapons would need to be used if Ehud Olmert sat down unconditionally with Bashir Assad, Fuoad Siniora & Mahmoud Abbas and told ea. of them he was prepared to do what was necessary to bring peace NOW. As I’ve said repeatedly here in this blog, the only defense against enemy weapons is peace. That’s the true way to disarm yr enemy. Instead of debating me about which weapons systems are moral & which are not why are you not demanding yr government negotiate now with these nations? Why are you not voting for parties that make such a demand? Why are you not demonstrating publicly for such a political position? Only when you can tell me you’ve done some or all of those things then you can come here & boast that you’re a “center-left” Israeli. And if you oppose any of these positions then you have no right whatsoever to use the “left” portion of that hyphenate political description of yourself. I for one HATE reading about another innocent bystander hit unnecessarily. DIME will also kill innocent bystanders. It might kill a small percentage less than current weaponry. But those it does kill it will kill far more horrifically than current weapons. In sum, DIME is NOT an improvement. It is not preferable to more conventional explosives. And I’d like to know how you defend causing… Read more »

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