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00:38:41 *Xach* looks around for willing quicklisp testers, encourages them to join #quicklisp
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00:59:00 greetings
00:59:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:59:38 yo fussssss
00:59:38 yo
00:59:42 can anyone summarize to me how to use &allow-other-keys in the generic function signature, without forcing the specific methods to include it?
00:59:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-26-15.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit]
00:59:55 hey guys
01:00:01 -!- vp8dmh [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
01:01:01 I have a GF that ought to take on required argument, the rest of the arguments are all optional and might include keywords known to the applicable specific methods
01:01:35 *p_l* figures he isn't in best condition to answer that after reading GF as "girlfriend" >_<
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01:01:41 clhs 7.6.4
01:01:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
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01:04:05 thanks stassats`
01:04:25 #5 was what I was asking
01:05:26 Oh my lord, tab completion at the repl has significantly become better since I last used it over a year ago. :D
01:05:58 funny, because it hasn't changed
01:06:28 Maybe I just forgot then.
01:06:43 maybe you used it wrong
01:07:01 Maybe, but no time for speculating on the past.
01:07:19 ok, you'll use it wrong sooner or later!
01:08:03 stassats`: No no, completion had to have changed, I don't remember any of these ~completion scores~ or anything. And I assure you, my memory is faultless!
01:08:28 then used a different kind of completion, there are three of them
01:08:42 stuff "you" somewhere in between
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01:40:10 xach: you here?
01:41:58 Yep.
01:44:11 The suspense is killing me!
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01:47:00 Are you trying to send a private message and it's not working because you're not identified? Or are you just wondering out loud if I'm here?
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01:48:00 xach: no, i just wandered away absentmindedly.
01:48:21 Cruel.
01:48:27 xach: can you go to symbolicspace.com in chrome and see if you have your prob anymore?
01:48:33 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
01:49:20 Seems to work fine.
01:51:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:51:40 cool thanks
01:51:45 put some team info up
01:52:34 Shiro Kawai!
01:52:40 *Xach* fondly remembers his Final Fantasy paper
01:55:26 final fantasy paper?
01:56:12 http://www.lava.net/~shiro/articles-e.html
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02:00:56 he's so cool, got to meet him in honolulu last week
02:01:32 kaveh, of course, is already like a brother from another mother
02:01:42 he was shiro's manager on ff
02:01:53 the movie, i dont think ff7
02:03:21 everybody on the team is smarter and more experienced than i
02:03:24 it's awesome
02:03:28 Good morning everyone!
02:03:50 beach: I need to go to sleep, good morning
02:04:32 madnificent: Feel free! :)
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02:13:30 hey beach!
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02:23:51 -!- Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com at what point in the build process for sbcl is Makefile.features generated (and from what is it generated)?
02:27:12 Genesis?
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02:30:27 stassats`: Any ever think about having slime do filename completion on logical pathnames or (gasp!) cmucl search-lists?
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02:31:42 i don't use logical pathnames, so no, i haven't thought about it
02:32:10 and the current filename completion is fully done by comint
02:32:14 I don't use logical pathnames much either. I do use search-lists a bit.
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02:33:16 doing completion on the lisp side may be better, for ssh and such
02:34:21 anyway to generate colorized HTML Lisp code from an emacs buffer?
02:34:23 I have seen it
02:34:30 i've been meaning for a long time to improve fuzzy completion in some obvious ways
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02:34:57 fusss: M-x htmlfontify-buffer
02:35:28 *stassats`* just did M-x html
02:35:37 there's also colorize or something like that
02:35:42 stassats`: excellent!
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02:48:24 hahaha
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05:38:26 maybe lisp/CLOS is the right tool to express very complex datatype relationships, which I never really realized until I saw this graph http://i.imgur.com/mrOzU.gif
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05:40:20 constraint networks are pretty easy to build, too
05:41:20 anyone seen an even moderately usable web-based programming text editor? something that at least handle highlighting and indentation?
05:41:40 i don't care what language, just that it exists
05:42:00 even better if it does auto-indentation
05:42:36 a web-based IDE? Now that would be nifty..never heard of one.
05:42:39 there was one built as an extension to google wave
05:42:53 it did indentation and syntax highlighting
05:43:22 http://ecco.sourceforge.net sea4ever: woah
05:44:20 9ne is a web-based emacs clone too, along with kodengine
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05:45:16 OliverUv: I've been debating on a language to implement my computer algebra system, and first I was thinking haskell etc., but those were too restrictive; scheme, but that's too minimal/inconsistent (with other schemes); and I decided C. But upon my resurgence in interest in lisp processors (and lisp machines (and reading the SmugLispWeenies on cliki))), perhaps CL is worth trying. Though I desperately need to read up on CLOS and incorporating
05:45:16 types
05:45:25 ramble ramble
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05:46:33 CLOS is very easy to use if you want a Java-like object system
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05:47:47 Quadrescence: ummm, Macsyma?
05:47:56 fusss: What about it?
05:47:59 that's what I do now, but I kinda want to learn how to use its more advancd features
05:48:09 Quadrescence: google it
05:48:15 fusss: I know what it is.
05:48:31 But I'm asking why you brought it up.
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05:50:02 Quadrescence: there is hardly any reason not to think "Lisp" first, when it comes to implementing CAS apps.
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05:51:50 Quadrescence: the whole thread is interesting, specially Dr. Fateman's input, but KMP lays down some history here: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f3b93140c2f2e922?pli=1
05:51:53 If you want to write a CAS as a library, I agree with you. If you're going to be writing a language on top of a language anyway, and a runtime, then I'd disagree (that there's hardly any reason)
05:53:54 alright, good luck!
05:54:04 *fusss* back to fun
05:54:39 fusss: I'm not saying I'm going to use C (I *was*). I'm just saying bla bla there are arguments against it.
05:54:54 bla bla got it
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05:58:07 I find it unfortunate that just because lisp is suitable to write a differentiation program naturally, that general symbolic computation and deeper, more intricate algorithms can run along the same paradigm as the differentiation program, and therefore Lisp = Natural for CASs.
05:58:37 s/unfortunate that/unfortunate that people think that/
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06:08:38 Quadrescence: Why do you think that is unfortunate?
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06:11:07 beach: Because algebraic algorithms don't always follow lisp's "path of evaluation" like that, furthermore you can't just attach a few simple simplification rules after to get the desired result.
06:11:49 Quadrescence: I don't understand. Are you saying Lisp is less suited than other languages for such applications?
06:12:47 No. I am just saying that purporting lisp is good for algebra simply because there are simple examples, like differentiation, isn't a good reason to say lisp is a good language to use for the task.
06:13:38 simple examples (of symbolic computation)
06:13:39 Quadrescence: OK I see. The right reason is that Lisp is simply more suited than most other languages for most applications.
06:13:58 Including CAS systems.
06:14:06 And including C.
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06:16:48 I agree. The only reason I was considering C is because of its portability to old systems, a very tight structure (building a house with toothpicks), etc. I no longer think that C is the right choice to begin writing algebra stuff in, but at the time, I figured I would just implement the base CAS language in C, and then write the rest in that language
06:18:06 That sounds like Greenspunning to me. You would end up re-implementing a large part of CL.
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06:20:23 die already, sourceforge
06:22:40 -!- kami`` is now known as kami-
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06:23:30 beach: Yeah, that's how I feel now about it.
06:23:49 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel
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06:25:59 found the motherlode, Re: web-based code editors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Javascript-based_source_code_editors
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06:42:18 Quadrescence: regarding greenspunning... have you ever seen IRAF?
06:42:31 No.
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06:45:38 Quadrescence: it greenspuns an operating system
06:45:52 in FORTRAN 77
06:45:55 i'm running the SBCL tests and redirecting stderr and stdout to files, but SBCL still manages to print output. I'm trying to debug what appears to be errors, and then errors occuring while errors are reported, and so on. my terminal overflows with the text. any idea why 2> .. 1> .. is not enough?
06:45:58 for a scientific soft
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07:16:35 gonzojive: because sbcl also writes directly to the terminal
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07:47:40 Krystof: Hi, do you know why primitive-type is dropped from load TNs?
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07:54:37 no
07:55:07 to start finding out, I'd undrop it, build, and see what breaks
07:59:48 well, I've built it succesfully, but don't know how to see what broke beyond that...
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08:07:45 if it passes its own test suite and the ansi tests, the compiler can't be that buggy
08:08:04 how can I run the tests?
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08:09:32 ah, I see - run-tests.sh
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08:16:03 good morning
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08:16:57 good morning kiuma
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08:35:46 hello
08:36:10 how can I construct and return a list from a loop like this one
08:36:15 (loop while (>= (/ num 10) (/ 1 10)) do
08:36:18 ?
08:37:34 collect
08:37:48 doesn't work
08:37:54 it says collect is undefined
08:38:05 (loop while ... collect ...)
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08:38:21 this is my function
08:38:25 (defun getdigits (num)
08:38:25 (loop while (>= (/ num 10) (/ 1 10)) do
08:38:25 (append (list (mod num 10)))
08:38:25 (setq num (floor (/ num 10))) ))
08:38:34 if i use collect instead of append
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08:38:42 it says collect is undefined
08:39:02 and with append the function returns nill
08:39:17 thats because collect is a loop keyword not a function. Say (loop ... collect ...)
08:39:17 Thorium: collect is a loop keyword like DO
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08:41:09 I wrote the function like this
08:41:14 (defun getdigits (num)
08:41:14 (loop while (>= (/ num 10) (/ 1 10)) do
08:41:14 (collect (mod num 10))
08:41:14 (setq num (floor (/ num 10))) ))
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08:41:35 EVAL: undefined function COLLECT
08:41:44 can you tell me what am I doing wrong ?
08:42:43 Thorium: you are using COLLECT like a function
08:42:55 it is a loop keyword, like tfb and I have been trying to tell you (:
08:43:15 try http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html - this explains loop pretty nicely.
08:43:18 how it should be ? like this?
08:43:20 (loop while (>= (/ num 10) (/ 1 10))
08:43:20 collect (mod num 10)
08:43:34 yes
08:43:41 it doesnt work!
08:44:04 it loops forever?
08:44:14 (that's because you don't modify NUM
08:44:16 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu]
08:44:34 try the FOR loop keyword
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08:46:13 (defun getdigits (num)
08:46:13 (loop while (>= (/ num 10) (/ 1 10))
08:46:13 collect (mod num 10)
08:46:13 (setq num (floor (/ num 10))) ))
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08:46:36 and the error
08:46:40 LOOP: illegal syntax near (SETQ NUM (FLOOR (/ NUM 10))) in
08:46:40 (LOOP WHILE (>= (/ NUM 10) (/ 1 10)) COLLECT (MOD NUM 10) (SETQ NUM (FLOOR (/ NUM 10))))
08:47:24 I suggest reading that link
08:47:24 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_
08:47:35 do you know what this error means ?
08:47:39 I already read it
08:47:51 there is no example there
08:48:00 with a loop while to return a list
08:48:16 I'm trying to use loop while and return a list from this loop
08:48:21 To execute lisp forms in a LOOP you have to use DO
08:48:23 what is the proper way to do it ?
08:50:29 can you show me an example with loop while do which uses collect to return a list
08:50:30 ?
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08:55:47 I can't ind any example which uses while on that link
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08:56:17 do you know some example which uses loop while do and collect to return a list from a loop
08:56:18 ??
08:56:31 is this even possible ?
08:58:40 _8david: For some reason, 'running impure tests' hangs on my system even if I check out pure 1.0.41.56
08:58:41 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-254.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp
08:59:05 do you know some places where I can post some lisp questions ?
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08:59:49 Thorium: (map 'list #'digit-char-p (princ-to-string 12345))
09:00:26 man I'm not trying to write that function
09:00:41 I want just to understand how can I use loop with while and collect
09:01:47 Pretty much how you try to do, all you're missing is that you need the DO loop keyword to execute arbitrary lisp forms in a LOOP as I said before, man.
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09:02:40 antifuchs: Is SBCL hanging on 'Running impure tests (#)' some kind of known problem?
09:02:57 Or is it my system?
09:05:03 tcr: can you rewrite this to work ? so I can see where is the mistake ...
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09:05:07 (loop while (>= (/ num 10) (/ 1 10)) do
09:05:07 collect (mod num 10)
09:05:07 (setq num (floor (/ num 10))) ))
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09:06:15 collect (mod ) do (setq )
09:06:25 Thorium: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113888
09:06:29 for instance
09:07:19 (actually mine does not have do and collect, just collect, but you can obviously add do clauses in the obvious way)
09:08:30 that one uses for....
09:09:25 I give up. LOOP is not that hard.
09:09:31 Hello, i have a list and i want to print it in a tree structure. Could someone help me do that?
09:09:33 :)
09:09:50 thanks tcr
09:09:53 it works now ...
09:14:32 antifuchs: It looks exactly like this bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/578391
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09:32:27 debugger invoked on a SB-BSD-SOCKETS:UNKNOWN-PROTOCOL in thread # "initial thread" RUNNING
09:32:28 {1002AC2F71}>:
09:32:28 Protocol not found: "tcp"
09:32:36 when running slime
09:33:07 does somebody already encountered that error ?
09:33:21 I'm on a very classic linux machine
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09:33:30 it worked yesterday, before I update my system
09:37:41 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:37:44 removing ~/.slime and starting over didn't change anything
09:39:11 galdor: check out /etc/protocols - does it list "tcp"
09:39:13 ?
09:40:01 oh crap this file doesn't exist (anymore)
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09:40:12 weeeeelll (:
09:40:14 why do I have the feeling that the last system update broke something
09:40:26 without it, I suspect getprotobyname will fail
09:42:43 you were right, reinstalling the package providing /etc/services worked
09:42:44 thank you :)
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09:43:14 minion: memo for gigamonkey: what's the licensing status of PCL code samples?
09:43:15 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks.
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09:50:21 Why are sbcl sources using packages like sb!c, and how do they turn into stuff like sb-c in the end result?
09:52:13 angavrilov: to separate the host and target environment, i think. i'm not sure how they turn.
09:52:29 angavrilov: I wrote a paper describing the build process and its rationale
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09:52:54 angavrilov: you can get it from
09:53:42 If I want to add a new sb-sse package, I should do it in package-data-list.lisp-expr?
09:55:36 yes. (Do you really need a new package? How many symbols are we talking about? Would it fit better in sb-vm?)
09:58:48 My ECL contrib exports 291
09:59:42 Here is where most of them are defined: http://github.com/angavrilov/ecl-sse/blob/master/contrib/sse/sse-core.lsp
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10:05:22 Xof: incidentally, since pkhuong appears to be very busy, maybe you could comment on the symbol naming scheme re possibility of a compatible implementation being accepted into sbcl? here is my mail detailing my decisions: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=AANLkTikaxvna_%2BUfE7dBfdbsec6_pu23Hp8UESxEpZua%40mail.gmail.com
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10:06:22 well, one thing to suggest might be to structure your implementation as a contrib/ rather than something that is automatically included
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10:06:46 then you don't have to worry so much about the sbcl build
10:07:19 and also it will be obvious when someone reviews your patch what in the core code needs changing to support your work
10:07:35 by nature it would mostly consist of VOPs and compiler transforms; how does that match the contrib paradigm in sbcl?
10:08:52 also, I'm just trying to see if I can continue from pkhuong's prototype code, and I definitely cannot do it from scratch...
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10:10:46 here's what I have at this moment: http://github.com/angavrilov/sbcl/commits/sse/
10:14:58 angavrilov: for an example of a contrib which is similarly mostly vops, see sb-rotate-byte
10:15:16 (I can't review code now)
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10:51:46 At which stage of compilation does (declaim (inline)) style inlining happen? I mean relative to transforms, VOP expansion etc
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10:52:04 very early
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11:14:29 Is it possible for a transform body to know if some of its arguments are constants, without specifying it as a dispatch constraint? And can it determine if some of arguments are guaranteed to be the same, e.g. when the call is (foo a a a a)?
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11:23:12 angavrilov: a compilermacro-function gets the form that was input. You could eq on the symbols and see if they are the same that way
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13:10:43 angavrilov: You mean deftransform or some other transform?
13:11:29 I don't yet know what is the exact difference between e.g. deftransform and defoptimizer...
13:12:28 defoptimizer is primarily used for type propagation. deftransform transforms the code into something else, presumably simpler or better.
13:13:24 And yes, deftransforms can tell if the argument is a constant, and it can figure out value of that constant.
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13:15:44 I'm considering something like partial constant folding for a certain set of functions, i.e. mutating the set of primitive operations used to build a complex result based on which args are constant or provably equal to each other
13:17:33 The functions to look at is constant-continuation-p and continuation-value to see if it's constant and get the value. At least for cmucl.
13:18:45 same-leaf-ref-p (and non-const-same-leaf-ref-p) will tell you if the args are the "same".
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13:20:33 sounds good :)
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13:30:05 stassats`: How do I use slime's disassemble-frame? There are some compiler warnings there that I'd like to fix. (And maybe make it work on something other than cmucl/x86.)
13:32:33 Are higher bits of xmm double-reg and single-reg in x86_64 SBCL guaranteed to be 0, or can they contain random garbage?
13:33:48 I'd look to see if realpart and imagpart clear out the high bits.
13:34:04 I think that's the only way to get stuff in the high bits.
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13:35:30 rtoym: by pressing D on a frame in SLDB
13:36:10 Cool. That seems to work for a Lisp frame.
13:36:49 The doc string for sb-ext:run-program reads "The program arguments and the environment are encoded using the default external format for streams." How do you alter this default external format and are there any issues with using UTF-8?
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13:37:03 looks like it uses GDB for other frames
13:37:48 rtoym: it does seem that it clears them out, and for single-float that relies on the high part being zero
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13:38:05 sebyte: sb-impl::*default-external-format*
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