If you don't mind, I'm also wondering about music with other problematic themes, such as promiscuity, and anti-religiosity?

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Well, let's think about this for a second. To continue with your food analogy, even though food may "pass through you" it does leave nutrients and fats behind. When you eat junk food, they hydrogenated oils form bonds to your arteries in the form of plaque, your body can get bloated from the high amounts of sodium, and you gain weight. All from food that "passed through you."

The same can be said for music with swearing.

Speaking for myself, I notice I am more at peace when I listen to Classical music or Orthodox chant.

While listening to rock 'n roll can be fun, I do notice that it affects my moods.

Furthermore, St. Paul tells us in Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."

So you have to ask yourself, does music with swearing fit into this category?

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Why do you need to listen to any music with swearing when there is such a wealth of wonderful, edifying music available? I agree with Handmaiden-the verse from Philippians is very applicable to many areas of our lives, including music!

I just don't know of any music with swearing in it that I would like. Every time I hear "music" with swearing in it, I flee - not because of the swearing but because the "music" itself is disgusting to me, gets on my nerves.

Furthermore, St. Paul tells us in Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."

So you have to ask yourself, does music with swearing fit into this category?

I don't think he's saying don't meditate on things that don't fall into these categories.

How about another analogy: what about friends that swear (doesn't have to be excessive)? Am I supposed to be avoiding them? Can't I just enjoy the conversation and at the same time ignoring the swearing?

I just don't know of any music with swearing in it that I would like. Every time I hear "music" with swearing in it, I flee - not because of the swearing but because the "music" itself is disgusting to me, gets on my nerves.

I would see where you're coming from if the lyrics are really graphic, but I know of some good songs with swearing in it.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 05:50:48 PM by sodr2 »

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"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III

If you don't mind, I'm also wondering about music with other problematic themes, such as promiscuity, and anti-religiosity?

I don't really know of any music with "promiscuity," but I know some beatiful, truly beautiful Ukrainian folk songs where the theme is a forbidden love (for example, of a maiden to a married man, or of two people who are not married to each other). These songs are heartbreaking, very pure, without a shade of cynicism or glorifying the subject. Simple, plane tragedy. For example, this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol3ZFyCcoRM&feature=related

I just don't know of any music with swearing in it that I would like. Every time I hear "music" with swearing in it, I flee - not because of the swearing but because the "music" itself is disgusting to me, gets on my nerves.

I would see where you're coming from if the lyrics are really graphic, but I know of some good songs with swearing in it.[/quote]

No, not because of the lyrics... it's just that whenever I hear swearing in a song, it happens to be in a style that I simply cannot listen to, like rap. It does not sit well with me, I can't listen to it.

Deviant sexuality is becoming quite a common and blatant theme in American pop music, actually.

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Deviant sexuality is becoming quite a common and blatant theme in American pop music, actually.

Ah, again, I would not know because I don't listen to that, not because of the words but because it's not my idea of "music." I love Bob Dylan, Arlo Guthrie, Simon and Garfunkel. That's about how "modern" I am.

Deviant sexuality is becoming quite a common and blatant theme in American pop music, actually.

Ah, again, I would not know because I don't listen to that, not because of the words but because it's not my idea of "music." I love Bob Dylan, Arlo Guthrie, Simon and Garfunkel. That's about how "modern" I am.

Heh. Modern music is far more morally questionable.

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How about another analogy: what about friends that swear (doesn't have to be excessive)? Am I supposed to be avoiding them? Can't I just enjoy the conversation and at the same time ignoring the swearing?

I Corinthians 15:33 says,"Evil company corrupts good manners." I think it is very important that we as Christians seek out good, wholesome company-especially if we are young or immature Christians. We need to be around those who encourage and provoke us to strive towards holiness of life.

Being around those who swear is not only vulgar and demoralizing, but it eventually wears us down and more likely than not we will be negatively influenced rather than winning them over to more decent, upper-class behaviour.

I remember, while still only in public school, and having to be exposed to very vulgar, low-class girls who swore and cursed, and how it rubbed off on me. Leaving that environment for one in which girls simply did not curse made me a far gentler, kinder person.

I'm hoping you do not mean by "upper-class" what first comes to my mind when I hear that phrase.

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I'm hoping you do not mean by "upper-class" what first comes to my mind when I hear that phrase.

I have no idea what comes to your mind. What I mean by "upper class" is someone who is pure, noble, refined and well-bred in manner and character, as opposed to vulgar and lacking in delicacy and good breeding. In short, someone of nobility of spirit.

I'm hoping you do not mean by "upper-class" what first comes to my mind when I hear that phrase.

I have no idea what comes to your mind. What I mean by "upper class" is someone who is pure, noble, refined and well-bred in manner and character, as opposed to vulgar and lacking in delicacy and good breeding. In short, someone of nobility of spirit.

Oh. I don't know what you mean by "well-bred". But I was thinking mostly about modern socio-economic class, which is often not all that connected with nobility.

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Given that Jesus was talking about food, and given that it's really not true that it doesn't matter what we eat in any sense, I'm going to have to assume that Jesus was talking about some ancient Judaic sense of purity in particular.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 11:13:37 PM by deusveritasest »

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I'm hoping you do not mean by "upper-class" what first comes to my mind when I hear that phrase.

I have no idea what comes to your mind. What I mean by "upper class" is someone who is pure, noble, refined and well-bred in manner and character, as opposed to vulgar and lacking in delicacy and good breeding. In short, someone of nobility of spirit.

Oh. I don't know what you mean by "well-bred". But I was thinking mostly about modern socio-economic class, which is often not all that connected with nobility.

It's true, and very sad. By "well-bred" I meant someone who has been carefully and lovingly trained by their parents in virtue and good taste. I don't see it at all as contingent upon social status and education etc., but rather on something far higher, far more elusive.

I'm not baptized or even a catechumen yet, so bear (bare?) that in mind, but I think the way words are used is more important than what words are used. If a song is violent, angry or glorifying non-christian behavior I could see that as problematic, but a song that has a lyric like this...

"You were born with a compass, a map on your table. Tell me how did you find out your bearings were ****ed." I don't really have a problem with it.

I think that music with swearing has different effects on different people. it's like video game ratings. "M for Mature", meaning "THIS GAME IS ONLY FOR THOSE MATURE ENOUGH FOR IT'S THEMES"

it's the same case with music. if you can handle a song, persay, talking about how attractive a girl is, and describing her with some obscene adjectives, that's fine. but if your one that would take those things to heart and use them when talking to your buddy when you see a nice-looking girl walk by, then you have a problem.

it all depends if you are comfortable with it.

there is really nothing religously wrong with songs with bad words, although they are not the best. they could lead one's mind to sin with some of the things they may suggest.

I'm hoping you do not mean by "upper-class" what first comes to my mind when I hear that phrase.

I have no idea what comes to your mind. What I mean by "upper class" is someone who is pure, noble, refined and well-bred in manner and character, as opposed to vulgar and lacking in delicacy and good breeding. In short, someone of nobility of spirit.

Oh. I don't know what you mean by "well-bred". But I was thinking mostly about modern socio-economic class, which is often not all that connected with nobility.

Yeah, I cringe when I hear things like "well-bred" and "good breeding." I'll give Rosehip the benefit of the doubt though. But I do encourage her to jettison these terms from her vocabulary. I'm with her when she speaks of manners, nobility of spirit, and purity of character; but I don't like distinctions like delicacy or classism.

As for the question of the OP... I'm convinced that creative people can artistically and powerfully convey any message they want without using profanity. I saw Chris Rock interviewed by Tavis Smiley the other night. He had me cracking up! And since it was a PBS interview, Chris Rock wasn't cussing. But I can't watch his standup stuff because his language is so foul. And the thing is, Chris Rock is brilliant and very capable of articulating the same humor just as effectively without needing to cuss every other word.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

I'm hoping you do not mean by "upper-class" what first comes to my mind when I hear that phrase.

I have no idea what comes to your mind. What I mean by "upper class" is someone who is pure, noble, refined and well-bred in manner and character, as opposed to vulgar and lacking in delicacy and good breeding. In short, someone of nobility of spirit.

Oh. I don't know what you mean by "well-bred". But I was thinking mostly about modern socio-economic class, which is often not all that connected with nobility.

Yeah, I cringe when I hear things like "well-bred" and "good breeding." I'll give Rosehip the benefit of the doubt though. But I do encourage her to jettison these terms from her vocabulary. I'm with her when she speaks of manners, nobility of spirit, and purity of character; but I don't like distinctions like delicacy or classism.

As for the question of the OP... I'm convinced that creative people can artistically and powerfully convey any message they want without using profanity. I saw Chris Rock interviewed by Tavis Smiley the other night. He had me cracking up! And since it was a PBS interview, Chris Rock wasn't cussing. But I can't watch his standup stuff because his language is so foul. And the thing is, Chris Rock is brilliant and very capable of articulating the same humor just as effectively without needing to cuss every other word.

Selam

I agree 100% with Gebre Menfes Kidus. people can have very effective speech without cussing. and, I know what you mean, my friend reccommended a CD to me by a band called "Tenacius D", and I can't even listen to it, it's so profane and vulgar.

Furthermore, St. Paul tells us in Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."

So you have to ask yourself, does music with swearing fit into this category?

I don't think he's saying don't meditate on things that don't fall into these categories.

Since you're Oriental Orthodox, it may be that y'all interpret St. Paul differently here. I doubt it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But in Eastern Orthodoxy, we understand that St. Paul IS saying don't meditate on things that don't fall into these categories. The 'swearing friends' analogy probably doesn't hold water either. For example, a practicing Christian tries hard not to swear.

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Deviant sexuality is becoming quite a common and blatant theme in American pop music, actually.

Ah, again, I would not know because I don't listen to that, not because of the words but because it's not my idea of "music." I love Bob Dylan, Arlo Guthrie, Simon and Garfunkel. That's about how "modern" I am.

Heh. Modern music is far more morally questionable.

Like I said, I simply do not know that because to me, rap etc. is NOT music. In the Ukrainian folk song that I gave a YouTube link to, the Marenych trio sings about something that is morally not just questionable but, indeed, forbidden: love of a young girl to an apparently older and MARRIED man who has two children (the last stanza of the song, about his two children, is omitted in the clip that I gave the link to, but it is there in the song). But it is MUSIC. And it conveys human tragedy, our human suffering because of the sin in the world. And it causes a "catharsis" in my soul, and it is beautiful and I WILL, WILL listen to it. "Moral content" is not an obstacle. In fact, "moralistic" songs where some "moral" or "positive" human trait is the subject matter are, IMHO, usually flat and not attractive to me from the artistic point of view. Same thing books or cinematography.

Yeah, I cringe when I hear things like "well-bred" and "good breeding." I'll give Rosehip the benefit of the doubt though. But I do encourage her to jettison these terms from her vocabulary. I'm with her when she speaks of manners, nobility of spirit, and purity of character; but I don't like distinctions like delicacy or classism.

All I can say is that I had to attend a very rough public school, full of very rough, difficult children, many of whom were, quite frankly, bullies from rough homes. The swearing and cursing, the wild, undisciplined behaviour in the classrooms, the promiscuity, even at a young age, was incredibly demoralizing for a sensitive, delicate person whose parents were totally opposed to such behaviours. I can't see anything wrong with the term "delicacy" and believe it is something we should all aim for a Christians. Why should we revel in vulgarity, obscenity and crudeness? Aren't we called out to be different from the non-believers around us- to shine as lights to those around us? If not, then maybe Orthodoxy is a different religion than what I read about in the NT.

I remember reading Dickens as a child (David Copperfield was a favourite), and therein was expressed so beautifully what I am trying to convey; the joy of the nobility of character of those with good manners and good breeding. That to me, is a very Christian thing.

^^Dear folks, having read Rosehip's posts for approx. 3 years, I am absolutely positive that when she says "high class" or "noble," she does not mean posh, cold-hearted behavior of the privileged. She means the "class," the nobility, of a CHARACTER, not somebody's bragging about being born to a family with means and high position in the society.

^^Dear folks, having read Rosehip's posts for approx. 3 years, I am absolutely positive that when she says "high class" or "noble," she does not mean posh, cold-hearted behavior of the privileged. She means the "class," the nobility, of a CHARACTER, not somebody's bragging about being born to a family with means and high position in the society.

Thank you so much, for truly understanding exactly what I meant, Heorhij. That shows true nobility on your part! To the rest, whom I may have unwittingly offended-I apologize. I have truly, absolutely nothing in the world to my name in terms of worldly privilege, success, high position in society, so it is not that to which I allude, but rather, something very simple to which we can attain!

I remember, while still only in public school, and having to be exposed to very vulgar, low-class girls who swore and cursed, and how it rubbed off on me.

and

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It's true, and very sad. By "well-bred" I meant someone who has been carefully and lovingly trained by their parents in virtue and good taste.

vs

Gebre

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Yeah, I cringe when I hear things like "well-bred" and "good breeding." I'll give Rosehip the benefit of the doubt though. But I do encourage her to jettison these terms from her vocabulary. I'm with her when she speaks of manners, nobility of spirit, and purity of character; but I don't like distinctions like delicacy or classism.

It is unfortunate that in the English language one is unable to escape a certain implicit classism when speaking of behavior. Even words such as "nobility" and "noble" imply a class distinction (between the noble and the common man), and "vulgar" means precisely that which is common.

What I find disturbing is how these words also relate to the linguistic phenomenon of the English "swear" or "curse" word. With the exception of two words ("d***" and "h***") none of our "swear" words have anything to do with actually swearing at all. While one might be "sure as s***" no one would ever swear by defecate or place their hand over such to make an oath and if one did others would likely doubt the worth of such an oath (perhaps even saying that your "word means jack-$#!*"). As relates to cursing itself, one might be told to "eat s*** and die", and while eating defecate certainly seems like it would be most unpleasant, it certainly seems to me far more harmful to be wishing death upon the person, along with it's possibility of damnation.

It seems to me that by selecting a certain small number of four (sometimes three or five) lettered words as being "swearing or cursing" we have opened ourselves up to the far greater sins of actually swearing or cursing on a far more than daily habit. A person who would never utter such a horrible expletive as **** or b**** will perjure himself fifty times before the sun sets. But, because this person is never "discourteous" (a word with the root "court", like "courtly", and relating to the courts of nobles, kings, and such) we accord unto him some virtue. The selfsame man will curse the president, his next door neighbor, or his children but because he never says **** we count him a "gentleman".

What distresses me most greatly is not just the implicit classism of such statements, but also the racism (or ethnicism, if you believe race is dependent upon color). For all these words to describe behavior have a single common point of entry into the English language, they come by way of France through the Norman invasion. And pretty much all the forbidden words of our language have a common point of entry into the English language- they were there to begin with. And all the ways we have of not saying these words come into our language by way of the Norman invasion of England. Really, by enforcing the idea of class and "good taste" we are doing no more to increase the virtue of our speech than we would by completely suppressing the use of any other slang or colloquialism.

Now, as regards the f-word... It is certainly a word that means one thing which Christians should tread lightly upon in their speech. A Christian should be avoiding "locker room" talk of any sort, regardless of the national origin of the word they use. Engaging in bragging over (hopefully past) sexual exploits and conquests is what is damaging, regardless of whether one is saying "Man, I hit that" or "Oh, yeah, I f***ed her". Indulging the lusts in "construction site" type talk is damaging whenever one is looking to his buddy and saying "Man, see her? What I wouldn't give to..." no matter how he finishes that sentence. But far less harmful, I believe, is the person who merely uses the word as an adjective (or adverb), usually due to constantly having heard that word used that way.

Also harmful is using these particular words for their "shock value". A person who finds these four-letter words naturally to be part of his vocabulary can be excused, perhaps, if the little old ladies at the bus stop are offended. The teenager who uses these words precisely to offend these same little old ladies is guilty of both their lack of charity and his own ill will.

As regards music, it is, I believe, the manner in which these words are intended as well. Back in the '60s, the '70s, or '80s, of course, such words were almost certain to offend. By the time of the '90s such had become common place that no one but a Senate committee would have a problem with it (and then only if your wife happened to be offended, which is why I did NOT vote Gore in 2000). If the "f-word" is used in a harmful way in one song it is likely the entirety of the artist's repertoire is harmful and lust based (Snoop Dogg, I'm looking at you). On the other hand, a well placed expletive can be a form of emphasis to make a particular point stand out, and such is the value of language. "Lies" is no where near as powerful an emphatic as "bull$#!*" (ah, OutKast, your poetic delicacies and nuances are a source of endless bounty).

Heorhij:

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Like I said, I simply do not know that because to me, rap etc. is NOT music. In the Ukrainian folk song that I gave a YouTube link to, the Marenych trio sings about something that is morally not just questionable but, indeed, forbidden: love of a young girl to an apparently older and MARRIED man who has two children (the last stanza of the song, about his two children, is omitted in the clip that I gave the link to, but it is there in the song). But it is MUSIC. And it conveys human tragedy, our human suffering because of the sin in the world. And it causes a "catharsis" in my soul, and it is beautiful and I WILL, WILL listen to it. "Moral content" is not an obstacle. In fact, "moralistic" songs where some "moral" or "positive" human trait is the subject matter are, IMHO, usually flat and not attractive to me from the artistic point of view. Same thing books or cinematography.

It seems to me to be precisely this type of poetry or fiction that the Church Fathers condemned over and again. A tale of forbidden love does nothing to warn people away from forbidden love, but lends to forbidden lovers a sense of grandiose tragedy. Every teenage girl emulates "Romeo and Juliet" despite the fact that nothing good happens to anyone in that story. Indeed, I would say that Romeo and Juliet has led to more girls dating, surrendering to, and in the worst case marrying a completely unsuitable husband to whom her father expresses an objection. Likewise the tale of Tristram and Isolt has caused more couples to enter into adultery on the grounds of the "duty of love". All the suffering is seen, not as the result of sin, but as the sacrifice demanded by this god called Love; completely counter to the point that the God who is Love sacrifices Himself.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

It seems to me that you all are taking every word in an extremely and bewilderingly literal fashion. Never in all my life did I understand the word "nobility" to be merely some sort of a classism (this could show the american bias of most of the posters here). Nobility was always something anyone could strive towards, regardless of socio-ecomonic class/race/background, and simply meant character=behaving well when no one else is around to see. Nobility is what causing a courting man to so love and respect his future wife that he will keep himself pure for her alone and will not force himself upon her before their marriage, but rather, will honour and respect her as a true lady. Nobility is what causes us to not brag about various privileges we may have, but rather to be ever sensitive to those who have less,etc. Maybe Orthodox people have just become too modern and I am too old-fashioned.

Nobility was always something anyone could strive towards, regardless of socio-ecomonic class/race/background, and simply meant character=behaving well when no one else is around to see.

It is only within the last 200 years of the English language, and only because of a certain "Americinization" that nobility has become something everyone could strive for. For the previous centuries Nobility was a firmly set and entrenched idea connected to one's inherited status (which is where we also get the term "well bred"). It was a tendency of the 19th century Romantics, looking back to the medieval fictions, which brought about these usages of today.

However, one could argue that the words are still connected to a certain classism/statisism. A child could have a vocabulary of profanity for one of two reasons: he could be of a lower economic status (or even a different cultural background than the English-American Ivy League ideal, say Italian) which never had the bias against good Old English words (in the South, at least, language used is still connected with pretensions toward aristocracy), or the child could be using the words as a form of rebellion in saying things he knows are forbidden.

My main point is that intent behind language is far more important than vocabulary.

Nobility is what causing a courting man to so love and respect his future wife that he will keep himself pure for her alone and will not force himself upon her before their marriage, but rather, will honour and respect her as a true lady.

You see, I always believed it was Christianity and a mark of the transformed life which causes one to behave in this fashion, not any sense of "nobility". From a historical perspective, it was indeed the idea of nobility (older sense) that caused many a "gentleman" to behave in a reprehensible fashion toward the "common" women, because their lower status meant they did not demand the respect that a "lady" would. This actually translates into modern life. A "noble" man might indeed have a certain form of behavior around women of his own social standing, while at the same time sneaking off with women who are already "tainted" (such cavalier behavior!).

It takes a Christian man to realize that all women are worthy and deserving of respect, or better said that all women should be respected regardless of worth and desert.

Please, do not get me wrong. The idealized forms of nobility, gentility, courtesy, and dare I say chivalry are indeed admirable, as any ideal. But virtue should be emphasized and cultivated before one aspires to these lofty goals, lest one think that by being noble and a gentleman or lady one has attained virtue.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

How about another analogy: what about friends that swear (doesn't have to be excessive)? Am I supposed to be avoiding them? Can't I just enjoy the conversation and at the same time ignoring the swearing?

I Corinthians 15:33 says,"Evil company corrupts good manners." I think it is very important that we as Christians seek out good, wholesome company-especially if we are young or immature Christians. We need to be around those who encourage and provoke us to strive towards holiness of life.

<_<

I said people who swear, not evil company. Those "vulgar, low class girls" may be evil company, but many people in my church, family, friends, everyone around me basically swears. And I don't consider them evil company. I think you guys are giving these swear words too much power...they're just words after all, who cares. I'd say it's more of a taboo than a sin.

I said people who swear, not evil company. Those "vulgar, low class girls" may be evil company, but many people in my church, family, friends, everyone around me basically swears. And I don't consider them evil company. I think you guys are giving these swear words too much power...they're just words after all, who cares. I'd say it's more of a taboo than a sin.

My question is: why do we NEED to swear, when there are so many other words available to use. To me, it is partly laziness. I don't know which church you go to, but I'm thankful that the people I know at my parish do not seem to swear at all. In this, they are a very good influence and example.

I said people who swear, not evil company. Those "vulgar, low class girls" may be evil company, but many people in my church, family, friends, everyone around me basically swears. And I don't consider them evil company. I think you guys are giving these swear words too much power...they're just words after all, who cares. I'd say it's more of a taboo than a sin.

My question is: why do we NEED to swear, when there are so many other words available to use. To me, it is partly laziness. I don't know which church you go to, but I'm thankful that the people I know at my parish do not seem to swear at all. In this, they are a very good influence and example.

Of course nobody NEEDS to use expletives. For that matter no one ever needs to use adverbs. However, some people never grew up with a taboo against four-letter words. It's not necessarily laziness to use these words, and it is not an indicator of one's spiritual state if they don't have a more expansive vocabulary. Education, perhaps, but not ethic.

The question isn't whether or not one NEEDS to use expletives, but rather whether one needs to NOT use expletives in the same way that one should avoid gossip or lascivious speech or oaths or true cursing.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Like I said, I simply do not know that because to me, rap etc. is NOT music. In the Ukrainian folk song that I gave a YouTube link to, the Marenych trio sings about something that is morally not just questionable but, indeed, forbidden: love of a young girl to an apparently older and MARRIED man who has two children (the last stanza of the song, about his two children, is omitted in the clip that I gave the link to, but it is there in the song). But it is MUSIC. And it conveys human tragedy, our human suffering because of the sin in the world. And it causes a "catharsis" in my soul, and it is beautiful and I WILL, WILL listen to it. "Moral content" is not an obstacle. In fact, "moralistic" songs where some "moral" or "positive" human trait is the subject matter are, IMHO, usually flat and not attractive to me from the artistic point of view. Same thing books or cinematography.

It seems to me to be precisely this type of poetry or fiction that the Church Fathers condemned over and again. A tale of forbidden love does nothing to warn people away from forbidden love, but lends to forbidden lovers a sense of grandiose tragedy. Every teenage girl emulates "Romeo and Juliet" despite the fact that nothing good happens to anyone in that story. Indeed, I would say that Romeo and Juliet has led to more girls dating, surrendering to, and in the worst case marrying a completely unsuitable husband to whom her father expresses an objection. Likewise the tale of Tristram and Isolt has caused more couples to enter into adultery on the grounds of the "duty of love". All the suffering is seen, not as the result of sin, but as the sacrifice demanded by this god called Love; completely counter to the point that the God who is Love sacrifices Himself.

You know... Church Fathers are the LAST source of authority to me in questions of art, music, poetry, CINEMATOGRAPHY, etc.

^ fair enough. Just so you understand that I see as much musical merit in rap as I see in any folk music. Just because it's not your type of music does not render something "not music". At it's best rap music can provide just as much human tragedy and suffering and catharsis as any other genre, and once you understand the music it can be just as inventive and musical. 70s folk standards fall flat on my ears, but I would never deny that they are indeed "music".

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Yeah, I cringe when I hear things like "well-bred" and "good breeding." I'll give Rosehip the benefit of the doubt though. But I do encourage her to jettison these terms from her vocabulary. I'm with her when she speaks of manners, nobility of spirit, and purity of character; but I don't like distinctions like delicacy or classism.

All I can say is that I had to attend a very rough public school, full of very rough, difficult children, many of whom were, quite frankly, bullies from rough homes. The swearing and cursing, the wild, undisciplined behaviour in the classrooms, the promiscuity, even at a young age, was incredibly demoralizing for a sensitive, delicate person whose parents were totally opposed to such behaviours. I can't see anything wrong with the term "delicacy" and believe it is something we should all aim for a Christians. Why should we revel in vulgarity, obscenity and crudeness? Aren't we called out to be different from the non-believers around us- to shine as lights to those around us? If not, then maybe Orthodoxy is a different religion than what I read about in the NT.

I remember reading Dickens as a child (David Copperfield was a favourite), and therein was expressed so beautifully what I am trying to convey; the joy of the nobility of character of those with good manners and good breeding. That to me, is a very Christian thing.

Rosehip, remember that I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't revel in vulgarity and obscenity. But when you describe rough, difficult, indelicate, and undisciplined people, I immediately think of the disciples. Many of them were pretty crude and rough around the edges. "Sons of thunder" hardly describes delicate and well-mannered men. If we are "to shine as lights to those around us," then we must be careful to call people to be Christians, not patricians.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

^ fair enough. Just so you understand that I see as much musical merit in rap as I see in any folk music. Just because it's not your type of music does not render something "not music". At it's best rap music can provide just as much human tragedy and suffering and catharsis as any other genre, and once you understand the music it can be just as inventive and musical. 70s folk standards fall flat on my ears, but I would never deny that they are indeed "music".

I understand. I did not mean to offend younger folks. Sorry if I sounded arrogant.

Rosehip, remember that I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't revel in vulgarity and obscenity. But when you describe rough, difficult, indelicate, and undisciplined people, I immediately think of the disciples. Many of them were pretty crude and rough around the edges. "Sons of thunder" hardly describes delicate and well-mannered men. If we are "to shine as lights to those around us," then we must be careful to call people to be Christians, not patricians.

Those are good points, but doesn't the Holy Spirit have the power to transform us into new creatures? Not patricians necessarily, but people who are noticably different from those around them and careful that all they say and do brings only glory and honour to One we serve? When we become a Christian, won't it affect us in many ways-the places we frequent, the friends with whom we associate, our speech, our choice of music, our behaviours and morals, etc.?

Rosehip, remember that I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't revel in vulgarity and obscenity. But when you describe rough, difficult, indelicate, and undisciplined people, I immediately think of the disciples. Many of them were pretty crude and rough around the edges. "Sons of thunder" hardly describes delicate and well-mannered men. If we are "to shine as lights to those around us," then we must be careful to call people to be Christians, not patricians.

Those are good points, but doesn't the Holy Spirit have the power to transform us into new creatures? Not patricians necessarily, but people who are noticably different from those around them and careful that all they say and do brings only glory and honour to One we serve? When we become a Christian, won't it affect us in many ways-the places we frequent, the friends with whom we associate, our speech, our choice of music, our behaviours and morals, etc.?

Absolutely. "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. The old things are gone, and behold all things are new." [II Corinthians 5:17]

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

Rosehip, remember that I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't revel in vulgarity and obscenity. But when you describe rough, difficult, indelicate, and undisciplined people, I immediately think of the disciples. Many of them were pretty crude and rough around the edges. "Sons of thunder" hardly describes delicate and well-mannered men. If we are "to shine as lights to those around us," then we must be careful to call people to be Christians, not patricians.

Those are good points, but doesn't the Holy Spirit have the power to transform us into new creatures? Not patricians necessarily, but people who are noticably different from those around them and careful that all they say and do brings only glory and honour to One we serve? When we become a Christian, won't it affect us in many ways-the places we frequent, the friends with whom we associate, our speech, our choice of music, our behaviours and morals, etc.?

"If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. The old things are gone, and behold all things are new." [II Corinthians 5:17]

Absolutely. And maybe these "new things" include new, non-Puritanic attitude to what has been traditionally (Puritannically, hypocritically) viewed as "swearing" and "immorality" in art, poetry, music, cinematography...

Rosehip, remember that I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't revel in vulgarity and obscenity. But when you describe rough, difficult, indelicate, and undisciplined people, I immediately think of the disciples. Many of them were pretty crude and rough around the edges. "Sons of thunder" hardly describes delicate and well-mannered men. If we are "to shine as lights to those around us," then we must be careful to call people to be Christians, not patricians.

Those are good points, but doesn't the Holy Spirit have the power to transform us into new creatures? Not patricians necessarily, but people who are noticably different from those around them and careful that all they say and do brings only glory and honour to One we serve? When we become a Christian, won't it affect us in many ways-the places we frequent, the friends with whom we associate, our speech, our choice of music, our behaviours and morals, etc.?

"If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. The old things are gone, and behold all things are new." [II Corinthians 5:17]

Absolutely. And maybe these "new things" include new, non-Puritanic attitude to what has been traditionally (Puritannically, hypocritically) viewed as "swearing" and "immorality" in art, poetry, music, cinematography...

Why are you bringing up the Puritans? Let's just approach these matters from an Orthodox perspective.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

Actually, Heorhij, I was thinking the same thing today...it's so hard to shake off a perhaps too pietistic past, but how does one switch over to enjoying and intentionally listening to swear words when they bring up nothing but difficult and traumatic images of severe bullying in the schoolyard, abuse, and other horrifying experiences?

Rosehip, remember that I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't revel in vulgarity and obscenity. But when you describe rough, difficult, indelicate, and undisciplined people, I immediately think of the disciples. Many of them were pretty crude and rough around the edges. "Sons of thunder" hardly describes delicate and well-mannered men. If we are "to shine as lights to those around us," then we must be careful to call people to be Christians, not patricians.

Those are good points, but doesn't the Holy Spirit have the power to transform us into new creatures? Not patricians necessarily, but people who are noticably different from those around them and careful that all they say and do brings only glory and honour to One we serve? When we become a Christian, won't it affect us in many ways-the places we frequent, the friends with whom we associate, our speech, our choice of music, our behaviours and morals, etc.?

"If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. The old things are gone, and behold all things are new." [II Corinthians 5:17]

Absolutely. And maybe these "new things" include new, non-Puritanic attitude to what has been traditionally (Puritannically, hypocritically) viewed as "swearing" and "immorality" in art, poetry, music, cinematography...

Why are you bringing up the Puritans? Let's just approach these matters from an Orthodox perspective.

Selam

Because I believe viewing "immoral" content in a song as "pushing" someone to do immoral things is Puritanic, and if Fathers wrote something like that, they were Puritanic.