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I guess this question goes mostly to Richard as he seems to have the largest library of books and other materials, but to anyone who can give more info... I have the CIPMA and the Wang Zi Yong books (both hard copy and scanned, thanks to Peter!!) but they are heavily concentrated on Ji school (for obvious reasons, as they are both from the Wang Xisan family). In addition, while "New Look..." (also thanks to Peter) has more reference to Beijing (Jing School) the material is obviously dated, given the 1990 publishing date. I would like to learn more about the Jing school in particular, and find ANY additional reference or documentation about the Yue and Lu schools. Can any of you share names and titles, authors of any books, websites, both in English and Chinese, and written here in English and Chinese characters?

Although the Jing School (京) is one of the earliest schools for inside painted bottles, there are not many literature devoted to this school.

Most publications for this school focused on it’s old masters such as Ma Shaoxuan, Zhou Leyuan, Ye Zhongsan and a few others.

You can find more information on them from titles like “Inkplay In Microcosm: Inside-painted Chinese Snuff Bottles - The Humphrey K F Hui Collection” by a Hong Kong collector, Humphrey Hui and “The World In A Bottle” by Stephen L Little & Joseph B Silver.

Unfortunately, books on comptemporary Jing artists are rare, one being “The Art Of Liu Shouben: Inside-Painted Snuff Bottles Of The Beijing School” by fellow local collector Dr Wong Kai Sang which is devoted entirely to Master Liu Shouben. Master Liu remains the current active artist from this school with a few students.

By the way, Master Wang Xisan is also a student from this school before he forms his own Ji School (冀) in Hebei.

For the Lu School (鲁) of the Shandong province, there are a few publications in Chinese published in recent years. One is the works of Master Zhang Guangqin and another from his son, Zhang Luhua. There are also the Yantai Convention publications in 2007 and 2009 which featured some of the other artists from this school.

I have yet to find a publication devoted to the Yue School (粤) in Guangdong.

Of course, you may come across various articles printed in journals and magazines such as the ICSBS Journal and Arts of Asia, etc on an ad hoc basis.

In addition to the above, there are also 2 younger schools in China, namely the Qin School (秦) in Shanxi (陕西) headed by Zhang Tieshan (张铁山) and also the Jin School (晋) by Duo Shanling (多山岭) in Shanxi (山西). Both Zhang and Duo are former students of Wang Xisan.

For websites on thesse inside painters, the easiest way is to do a search in Chinese using the Chinese search engine Baidu. (www.baidu.com). But of course, most of these websites will be in Chinese with a few comes with an English version.

However, if you are using Google Chrome browser, there is a translation feature that will be triggered whenever a web page in foreign language is accessed. Alteratively, you can also use some web translation tools such as Google translation, etc.

I guess this question goes mostly to Richard as he seems to have the largest library of books and other materials, but to anyone who can give more info... I have the CIPMA and the Wang Zi Yong books (both hard copy and scanned, thanks to Peter!!) but they are heavily concentrated on Ji school (for obvious reasons, as they are both from the Wang Xisan family). In addition, while "New Look..." (also thanks to Peter) has more reference to Beijing (Jing School) the material is obviously dated, given the 1990 publishing date. I would like to learn more about the Jing school in particular, and find ANY additional reference or documentation about the Yue and Lu schools. Can any of you share names and titles, authors of any books, websites, both in English and Chinese, and written here in English and Chinese characters?

Thanks Richard. So, based on your response and reading between the lines, it seems like the Jing school is in danger of not being taken forward to next generations with just a few students and perhaps masters in coming following Liu Shouben. This also seems to explain the lack of items (visible at least) in the market place, other than through direct order and mouth to mouth/who knows who. It definetely seems the 'lowest' profile of the big schools. A real pity ... just my own point of view. On the Shanxi schools, do you have any more info before I try to do this in Baidu? Which city/ies are the concentrated in? Taiyuan or?

I was especially interested in the Qin and Jin schools . I never knew they had names before !

I met Zhang Tieshan at Yantai , where he was honored as one of the 12 Great Current Masters , on a par with Wang Xisan, Liu Shouben, Zhang Guangqin etc (look in my DB under Yantai for the 12 Masters Catalogue) He also gave me his catalogue which I scanned, and you will find it in the DB. He is based in Xian and next time I go there on business I want to visit his studio.

But Duo Shanling is a mystery . No pics, no nothing : just a reference in my DB to him as a 1st generation pupil of Wang Xisan.

I have updated my DB atists reference code word.doc to include this latest info

Now here's an interesting thing if you have my DB: do a search routine for all files in the DB with {J} in the file name and see what comes up ! VERY interesting !

[ NOTE : In the DB I use {J} for the Jing school and {H} for the Ji school = Hengshui. A search for {J} will miss out Liu Shouben himself because I accidentally labelled him {Jspace}

Almost 90% of Jing school artists in the DB are mentioned ONLY in New Look, and nothing since then !

Only a very few Jing artists also appear in CIPMA, one of which is Zhang Baohua whose still actively paints and whose bottles Jill sometimes has for sale ( I bought a nice one a year ago ) Another two are are Cao Hongmin and Sun Baocai who have since become partners in Jill's BJ shop/ dealership business, and who seem also to have stopped painting ( as far as I know)

There's also a couple of Jing bottles in the DB bought by me ( Mao Ru and Zhang Zhigang) , but significantly I found these in the bottom shelf of a HK Hollywood Road antique shop 2 years ago, and both bottles are dated late 1990's .

So it does seem that the Jing school is dying out............. at least to this amateur observer

Mmmmmmmmm another project to follow up

RICHARD : You have good contacts with Liu Shouben , I understand. Could you perhaps write to him for some insight as to what has happened to the Jing school?

Yup, that was my point raised earlier. I have been combing through your database for work produced by Jing school and other open ends, and also noticed what you just said. This is also how I came up with the Qiu Shi question in another thread. It seems that I also only have earlier works from Jing school. And the reason I have it, is because at one point they painted 'old' style, kind of reproduction of old work in sepia resembling the 'look' of the old scroll paintings (from the 70s/80s) and I took a liking to it. I dont think I have anything from them that comes close to the work produced in Hengshui though. I have the greatest respect for Liu Shouben's work and the 'early' followers but have not been willing to shell out that much dough, and frankly, the rest of the school is kind of invisible, if existing.

You can see I am really using your database. What an incredible resource. A heartfelt thanks for sharing it! And some interesting threads and discussions coming out of it. Another thing that intrigues me is the Nie Lei/Rui Zhi et al linkages to Zhang Limin... I have a couple of Nie Lei bottles both signed as Rui Zhi and Yi Ding, so this is another open end to explore. Finally, I have a broken/repaired bottle (unsigned) that is very very likely from the other Yi Ding (Suo Zhenhai) that is so extremely close to the bottle style and painting style of your bottle and the one in CIPMA (landscapes). I need a long vacation to photograph my stuff!

Apart from using it myself to navigate the Modern IPB "jungle", I was always hoping that others would use it as a resource for research and then gradually flesh it out and fill in the gaps so that we gradually build it up. Then once every year or so I will re-issue the new up-dated master version to all interested contributors.

I tried to introduce it at the Yantai meeting but got zero interest. And so far all my modest attempts to get the ICSBS interested in any tiny way ( just a one-liner in the editorial would be enough) have fallen on deaf ears.Guess that's life

There's still an enormous amount to do . For example , your past two postings raise many questions:

1. What happened to the Jing school ! Seems it is dying out fast ( Hoping Richard can cast some light on that )

2. Zhang Limin ( aka Spiderman) = Rui Zhi = Yu Ran = Xiao Xi = Jiang Hua : I think all these are his pen names, or at least names others have written on his unsigned bottles before passing them out into the market for sale to runners. Next time I go to Hengshui I'm going to take all the bottles which I think were painted by him and get positive ID ( and then ask him to sign them in his own name ! )

3. In the edition of the DB you have I did give Rui Zhi as an alternate pen name for Nei Lei. I later noticed that, and could not remember why I did that. So in the absence of any evidence I recently deleted Rui Zhi as a pen name of Nei Lei. So I think Rui Zhi is 100% Zhang Limin , and Nei Lei is only aka Yi Ding. But anyway, that's also very easy to check in Hengshui because Nei Lei has a shop in the high street ( " Yi Ding Inside Art" )

4. The "other Yi Ding" = Suo Zhenhai : this is very interesting because in CIPMA 120/121 the alternate pen names of Suo Zhenhai ( Yi Ding = One person and Yi Shi = One Stone) are only given in the English text. They are not mentioned in the Chinese text ! . BTW : this is not the first time I have found the English and Chinese texts differering in CIPMA . Yi Shi / One Stone is 一石, I am 99% certain. But I am not so sure that Yi Ding / One Person is 一丁 , as in Nei Lei / Yi Ding. So maybe when I also gave Suo Zhenhai the aka of 一丁 in the DB I was wrong . RICHARD : Is there any other character that would fit better pronounced " Ding" but meaning " Person" ? Look in CIPMA page 120 and you will see what I mean .

5. Suo Zhenhai is a very interesting artist. He died in 2006 from cancer and his wife now continues the business ( see the Yantai advert : they even have a website) . According to Bill, Suo Zhenhai painted profilically till the end of his life, and so his bottles often turn up all over the place at very low prices. I bought a very nice one in a GZ shop for only RMB800 ! ( certified as genuine by a senior HS artist who knew SZH very well : it's actually in my DB ) . His bottles towards the end of his life mostly seemed to have a common theme as typified by the bottle I have and the one on Bill's website. But some of his earlier work is very different, and in my opinion much better. I once saw one of his bottles reported as sold on a Chinese auction site for RMB80,000, although I think that many of the prices on such Chinese auction sites are rigged ( there was once a Wang Xisan reported sold on one such site for RMB500,000).

6. Another interesting thing........ if you look at the English text of Suo Zhenhai in CIPMA you will see references to the fact that SZH studied under various "modern artists ... Li Keran, etc". I can't find these names anywhere, so either they are completely forgotten Modern School IPB artists, or they were canvas artists(I suspect the latter )

Thanks for the addl info. On point (3): Nie Lei DEFINETELY uses the 'Rui Zhi' pen name so dont delete that. I have 2 of his calligraphy bottles and one of them with a bona fide certificate, picture of him, signed, number of copy et all...

On the ICSBS, hmmm... no comment but I think you know my point of view already. Just goes to show many of these folks have their head in the clouds. If it aint certified or endorsed by some of you know who, then they dont follow.

To clarify my last point the calligraphy bottled ARE signed Yi Ding... BUT i have heard he uses Rui ZHi too. Better to ask him and veirfy. Also, there is an artist called Yi Din too to further confuse matters.

1. Based on your info , I have put back Rui Zhi into the DB as aka Nie Lie ( ? ) and well as aka Zhang Limin ( ? ) *

To clarify from my side : the ( very few) Rui Zhi bottles I have were all bought in Ms Wang's bottle shop in SH, where she often has bottles both from the Da Yong studio of artists ( includes Zhang Limin) and also from Nie Lei. Quite often she herself is confused about the real origin of a bottle, so it could be at one time she told me Rui Zhi is from the Da Yong studio, and at another time from Nie Lei

2. If you look under ZLM in my DB you will see pics of a " Rui Zhi" bottle showing flying geese which I have so far attributed to ZLM - but maybe wrongly . If I recall, I did not buy this bottle - just took pics. What is interesting is that I have another version of this bottle ( same flying geese , with just minor variations) which I bought in GZ ( ! ) . AND I have seen the same theme painted yet again in another bottle at least one more time, maybe even twice more, again in SH. I guess they are all painted by Rui Zhi, whoever he is ( " Mr Flying Geese" !) , unless these are all variations on a theme inspired by a famous canvas painting which more than one artist has copied.

3. Glad to know your Nei Lei calligraphy bottle is in fact signed Yi Ding. Because as far as I know ALL his calligraphy bottles are signed Yi Ding.

4. "Din" is not a pinyin word . It must be " Ding" , but there are several characters which could be written as "Ding" e.g 丁 仃 顶 订 etc

Cheers Peter

* If you type in Chinese you can insert a "?" into the title of a file ! Now there's a thing !

6. Another interesting thing........ if you look at the English text of Suo Zhenhai in CIPMA you will see references to the fact that SZH studied under various "modern artists ... Li Keran, etc". I can't find these names anywhere, so either they are completely forgotten Modern School IPB artists, or they were canvas artists(I suspect the latter )

Yesterday I was talking with the owner of a local Chinese restaurant and telling him he needs to collect something. He said he didn't have big money to invest, so I suggested inside painted snuff bottles of the Very Modern period. I told him that he should buy good bottles now and they will appreciate over the next 5 to 10 years. So I asked for his email address and it turns out his family name is Liu. I told him that there are famous IPSB artists with that name and that I would email him some information. First I searched the internet and found some interesting information. When I searched the forum I found this very interesting thread.

I noticed that there were some open questions about Liu Shouben, so I thought that the following might be appropriate to add here. Almost as if the China Daily was following this thread , they published an article about Liu Shouben with some interview comments on May 18, 2011 - just a few days after this discussion. The article in part:

Liu was introduced to the art form at the age of 17, in 1960, when he learned traditional Chinese painting and inside-bottle painting at the same time in a factory with several "classmates".

"There were no so-called talents or gifts. All of us had no background in it. It was like hopping on a random train. You ended up wherever it took you," Liu said.

The "train" used to send students to Liu regularly in the 1970s and 1980s, when he sometimes had as many as 40 apprentices. But the figure quickly dropped to four when the policy changed and no jobs were allocated to the young.

Liu said if the government does not come up with policies to support the art form, soon no one in Beijing will know how to practice the craft.

Liu's works sell for more than 20,000 yuan, and a basic crystal bottle sells for about 2,000 yuan.

Some bottles on the market cost only about 50 yuan but, Liu said, they are not fully hand-painted. Using photolithography, the lines of the paintings in the cheap bottles are copied, with the colors then filled in by hand.

Some of Liu's students have already become famous craftsmen in their own right. Yet Liu is still desperate to recruit more.

"I will be more than happy if young people come to me to learn the craft," he said. "But they'll have to stay with me for at least two years, not a few hours or a few days," he said.

Liu Shouben was born in 1943. He is considered the " Father" of the Jing school based in BJ .

It's true that he had a lot of students in the past, but for some reason the students all dropped off a few years ago, so now it seems no-one wants to study under him , unlike Wang Xisan who has continued to inspire students ( and students of students, and students of students of students .... to the 7th or 8th generation )

There are very few VMIPB artists on any real fame in the Jing School . I just searched my data base and found about 30 artists listed in the Jing School, but all except Liu Shouben himself and a couple of other artists who are currently painting ( eg Zhang Baohua) , ALL the other JIng school artists are only cited in J. H. Lung's book " A new Look of Inside Painted Snuff Bottles" which was published in the early 1990s, which meant J H Leung collected those Jing School artist bottles in the late 1970s and 1980s. after which the artists vanished from sight.

There is an interesting book published in August 1992 and it is an overview of the ceramics and glass trades of Zibo ( 淄博 ) in Shandong. I attached the front cover of the book which I bough some years ago. It was compiled by the Zibo city's Committee for Research of Historical Materials and published by the Shandogn University. In the section on Glass, there is a substantial write-up on IP and IP artists of Shandong ( Lu School ). Some interesting accounts I did not know before.One account is related to Bi Rong Jiu ( 毕荣九 ). Bi has a disciple called 袁永谦 （Yuan Yong Qian ) [ 1885 - 1938 ] who mastered Bi's style and used to produced IP bottles for around 10 years for a glass supplier known as 仁和成料货庄 ( Ren He Cheng Glass Supply Store ). Because of the price appreciation of Bi Rong Jiu bottles after he died, the Ren He Cheng store , for the purpose of profiteering, ever let Yuan to sign bottles Yuan painted in Bi Rong Jiu's style ( i.e. faking Bi's work ) ! Bi Rong Jiu died in 1925.