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Topic: Fearful Sights and Great Signs (Read 8205 times)

What I am still not sure about is that the remnant of verse 13 are the same as those of verse 12 - who are called from above and ascend up to heaven in a cloud. I do realise this is not the rapture.

Revelation 11v12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 - And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Hello Alexandra,

If this helps, "They" = "the remnant". They are the only people who hear the great voice from heaven so they can depart out. But for ALL the rest of people (professed believers, signifies men seven thousand) will be judged within the city. They do not heed the call to the great voice. They did not think there is anything wrong with their church today. Have you read Tony Warren's Revelation 11 study. I think he explained well about verse 12.

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I am not totally confused about this book since I have read and ''tried'' to study the book of Revelation, combined with some excellent information I found on the MR site. The most marvellous discovery for me in these past months has been how scripture literally ''opens up'' when interpreting scripture ONLY with scripture. I will continue to study and Trust Our Father to lead and guide through the Holy Spirit, and again, I thank God for this forum, for Mr Tony Warren, and for those, like yourself, who faithfully study and assist those like myself. Thank you Erik

I am glad that you found this site helpful. I hope that we all can help enlighten each other with the knowledge our Lord provided. Please feel free to ask post any questions you have for us.

Take care,

Erik

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"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

If this helps, "They" = "the remnant". They are the only people who hear the great voice from heaven so they can depart out. But for ALL the rest of people (professed believers, signifies men seven thousand) will be judged within the city. They do not heed the call to the great voice. They did not think there is anything wrong with their church today. Have you read Tony Warren's Revelation 11 study. I think he explained well about verse 12.

If this helps, "They" = "the remnant". They are the only people who hear the great voice from heaven so they can depart out. But for ALL the rest of people (professed believers, signifies men seven thousand) will be judged within the city. They do not heed the call to the great voice. They did not think there is anything wrong with their church today. Have you read Tony Warren's Revelation 11 study. I think he explained well about verse 12. [/quote]

Hello again Erik,Thank you once again for taking the time to explain this to me I shall try to paraphrase that which I have come to understand from your and Tony's explanation, (including his articles.)

We, the Elect, are those two witnesses that are called up - however, are not removed from the earth, (raptured) but rather, removed out of the churches. The 'ascending up to heaven' is the symbolic language for ''coming out of'' the apostate church. The same symbolism we read in:

Mark 13 v 14: But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Yes or no?

and as was mentioned, in Revelation 18 v 4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Am I correct in this or not?

Then in Revelation 11 v 1: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. - this therefore meaning we, the Elect = the two witnesses, yes or no?

Now, if I hope to understand the Biblical symbolism of numbers as I have read them in Tony's article: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/numbers.html, the seven thousand which ''were slain'' is symbolic of the church in it's totality, (the complete ''apostate church'') those not measured in the inner-court as read in Revelation 11 v 2 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. - the outer court therefore being what would today be known as the Church, but NOT the Elect.

Whilst I realise that this book is not chronologically written, I am still trying to understand those passages where there is repetition of the same message, but the vision (or symbolic language) differs in the presentation.

I look forward to your reply and once again, sincerely thank you and any others who would assist me in my understanding.

["The tongue of the Sucking Child cleveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask Bread, and no man breaketh it unto them. They that did feed delicately are dessolate in the streets: They that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.] I believe this veres also speaks of the the kind of preaching going on in the churches of our day, where God has ceased to bless his word onto them. Becuse they would instead ** the church** rather embrace othere gospels =dunghills and Breadless preaching. The preaching is BREADLESS becuse man likes it his way, CHRIST the BREAD of life leaves them on there own.[ DESSOLATE]

We, the Elect, are those two witnesses that are called up - however, are not removed from the earth, (raptured) but rather, removed out of the churches.

Correct.

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The 'ascending up to heaven' is the symbolic language for ''coming out of'' the apostate church.

The heaven in Revelation, like the woman in heaven of Revelation 12, represents the KINGDOM of HEAVEN, the place of God. In other words, we are to flee to the mountain which is kingdom of God in a "cloud" (glory of God). As we flee from church, it is our prophesy against the wicked in the church. They become fear BECAUSE of our exit. They might felt offended by our prophesy as them as judgment (standing up) and our depart out of their church. That is why they made mockery of our depart which shows their fear as they beheld our depart. So yes, the Elects who heed to God's call to come out of apostate church (Babylon the Great) as they start to discern the abomination of desolation in the church.

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The same symbolism we read in:

Mark 13 v 14: But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Yes or no?

Yes. Same thing. Judaea signifies corporate church. We stood up (prophesy again) and depart our of judaea and flee to mountain (kingdom of God). Again, this is not the rapture yet for the seventh trumpet has yet to be sound.

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and as was mentioned, in Revelation 18 v 4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Am I correct in this or not?

Right.

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Then in Revelation 11 v 1: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. - this therefore meaning we, the Elect = the two witnesses, yes or no?

Yes.

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Now, if I hope to understand the Biblical symbolism of numbers as I have read them in Tony's article: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/numbers.html, the seven thousand which ''were slain'' is symbolic of the church in it's totality, (the complete ''apostate church'') those not measured in the inner-court as read in Revelation 11 v 2 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. - the outer court therefore being what would today be known as the Church, but NOT the Elect.

The judgment of the church in totality, where the slain of men (all men without seal of God, Rev 9) are under judgment. They represent the court which is without the temple to be given to the Gentiles as judgment, right. Now you see why God NEVER judge Elects.

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Whilst I realise that this book is not chronologically written, I am still trying to understand those passages where there is repetition of the same message, but the vision (or symbolic language) differs in the presentation.

There are many places in Revelation that speaks about the SAME event. That is why many people got their interpretations wrong because they took every verse in chronological order.

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I look forward to your reply and once again, sincerely thank you and any others who would assist me in my understanding.

I have been busy lately and will try to make some time to response to any post here when I can.

God bless you and everyone else.

Erik

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"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Hello again Erik,I am so thankful for your reply. Oh, how very exciting is the Written Word of our LIVING GOD, and that His Precious Holy Spirit sees fit to reveal to us, mere mortal man, dust of the earth, the quickening, life-giving, awesome truths revealed therein - pre-ordained from before the foundations of the earth was ever laid! Since beginning to study, I cannot help but feel that we are living the future as if it were history already...for truely, all has been accomplished through the cross! It is DONE! (I hope this makes some sense... just 'thinking' in writing )

Psalm 45: v 1: God [is] our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. 2 - Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; 3 - [Though] the waters thereof roar [and] be troubled, [though] the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah. 4 - [There is] a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy [place] of the tabernacles of the most High.

How privileged we are to be those living, moving, breathing ''tabernacles'' of the Most High God!!

Thank you again Erik and may you be Blessed in your 'busy-ness' - in all you set your hand to, and to all who constantly contribute to help us in our daily walk!

That's why I don't post here a lot. The arrogance! I wouldn't be so quick (like people here) to think they know it all and claim there will be no actual fearful signs like earthquakes and plagues preceding the second coming. Amazing how those who claim to stick to the bible, choose not to when it says something like this.

Hello again Erik,Thank you once again for taking the time to explain this to me I shall try to paraphrase that which I have come to understand from your and Tony's explanation, (including his articles.)

We, the Elect, are those two witnesses that are called up - however, are not removed from the earth, (raptured) but rather, removed out of the churches.

Standing in front of the temple of Solomon, there were two pillars of cast bronze, and there are several places in the Old Testament where pillars were set up as witnesses.

These two pillars could correspond to the two trees, and two candlesticks in John's prophecy in Rev. 11. The two bronze pillars stood on either side of the porch of Solomon's temple. They were called Boaz and Jachin. These two pillars were 8.2 m high, and 1.8 m wide, with capitals 2.4 m high; they were decorated with rows of 200 bronze pomegranates, and each was topped with lilies of bronze. [1 Kings 7:13-22, 41-42; 2 Chronicles 4:13]

The ornamentation at the top of the pillars is thought to have given them the appearance of enormous lampstands. In the time of Hezekiah, they were overlaid with gold. [2 Kings 18:16]

The purpose of pillars in ancient times, and their role as witnesses, is indicated by two incidents in the life of Jacob, each of which involved setting up pillars. When Jacob fled from his brother Esau, he came to a place where he spent the night, and dreamed of a ladder reaching from the earth to heaven, and angels ascended and descended on it. God stood at the top, and he promised Jacob that he would give him the land, and also that in his seed, all the families of the earth would be blessed. [Genesis 28:11-14] Jacob called the place Bethel, meaning house of God, and he set up the stone which he had used as a pillow stone as a pillar. [Genesis 28:16-22] Later, Jacob dug a well near this place.

The role of a pillar as a witness is explicit in another incident, when Jacob and his uncle Laban set up a heap of stones, and a pillar, as witnesses to a covenant between them both, which said that neither Jacob, nor Laban, would pass by that place to do any harm to the other. [Genesis 31:51-52] During his ministry Jesus visited Jacob's well, where he met a woman of Samaria. In their conversation, Jesus told the woman that those who worship God would no longer go to Gerizim, or to Jerusalem, but must worship God in spirit and in truth. [John 4:19-24]

In John's prophecy, which is about measuring the temple, the presence of the two pillars Boaz and Jachin at the porch of Solomon's temple may be what the two witnesses in his prophecy allude to. They seem to represent the scriptures, and the spirit of God. The two things Jesus mentioned, spirit and truth, are like the two pillars, or witnesses, set up at the entrance to the spiritual temple of God. For Jesus, the word of God in the scriptures is truth. [John 17:17] Entrance to the spiritual temple, and true worship, involves both of these.

The 'ascending up to heaven' is the symbolic language for ''coming out of'' the apostate church. The same symbolism we read in:

Mark 13 v 14: But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Yes or no?

If the two witnesses are symbolic of the Spirit, and the truth, or the scriptures, then their coming to life would suggest new understanding, and the saints taking a more fruitful approach. Their ascending to heaven suggests the Spirit and understanding coming into the church, and reviving it. The church is the temple in heaven, Rev. 11:19; and the woman in heaven, Rev. 12:1.

and as was mentioned, in Revelation 18 v 4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Am I correct in this or not?

Then in Revelation 11 v 1: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. - this therefore meaning we, the Elect = the two witnesses, yes or no?

The prophecy about the two witnesses seems to distinguish between the temple proper and the outer court. Between the two there were those two pillars, that seem to have the role of witnesses. Anyone entering the temple proper, and the holy of holies, had to pass between them. Their role seems to be that we are required to worship God in spirit and in truth. In my opinion it is incorrect to say the two witnesses are two churches; the ascent of the two witnesses to heaven seems to mean that the church will understand the truth and the Spirit will be revived in her, which is a wonderful thing to contemplate.

The prophecy about the two witnesses seems to distinguish between the temple proper and the outer court. Between the two there were those two pillars, that seem to have the role of witnesses. Anyone entering the temple proper, and the holy of ho lies, had to pass between them.

Doug

Doug, May I ask, is your eschatology Amillennial, Premillennial, Historic or Preterism? One's system affects the way one deals with scripture. What system do you place yourself under?

Luke 21:21-27"Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;p and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Clearly, this is speaking about the fall of the Church and its repercussions on those around it. There is a certain Godly fear for them, and for what is taking place, the great signs that they see.

I agree with what you said, Tony Warren. What about the verse 27-28 after you explained about Elect fear of judgment upon Babylon?

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Exact what does verse 27 talks about? A physical apperance of Son of Man at His Second Coming, or His invisible return first to judge the whore where we "see" and come into his "cloud" which represents His glory?

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

We know it is not talking about the second coming yet but rather flee to the mountains of God where his Glory is (cloud). Is this the same one spoke of in Luke 21:27? I asked because in Luke 21:28, where it says, "when these things begin to come to pass," we know Christ was referring to JUDGMENT of the Church, we will know that Christ's second coming is right at the door based on Christ's parable of the fig tree, Matthew 24:32 and Luke 21:29-31.

Am I right?

Thanks, Erik

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"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Luk 21:25-26[25] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;[26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

I noticed that many people, even Christians, are using evening news to interpret the verses above. For example, the racial and political hatred, protests, terror attacks, homosexuality rights, oppression of Christianity in secular places, and threat of all out-war between nuclear powers, the morale of the nation, etc.

I tend to believe that Luke 21:25-26 is more about the judgment of the church, rather than the secular world events, while its possible the events in the world reacts to the dimmer lights of the church. It is the fear FOR THE ELECT to "SEE" the judgment of God upon unfaithful church. But someone asked, "if the verses are about the judgment of the church, then why did God said, "upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity" and " for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." Someone insisted that this has to do more with secular world events, rather than Church.

Can anyone explain what God really meant by these quotes?

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"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

I believe that also, but you can't deny that the new moral degradation in the church isn't reflected in the new moral degradation in the world. God used the moral degradation in Sodom to represent the moral degradation in the church, and the moral degradation of Egypt to the moral degradation in the church, as well as that in the kingdom of Babylon, so they are in some way connected.

I remember Tony even mentioned once before that the church was the light of the world, and the light going out is reflected in more darkness in the world. So I see what you mean, I agree with what you said, but I still think they are in some way connected. When evil is loosed, it is reflected in the world by its increase and the light's decrease. The decline of the church and the growth of evil in the world is all connected.

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Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

The decline of the church and the growth of evil in the world is all connected.

Hey Chicago, I was talking about many Christians who insisted that the evil in the world are the "SIGNS" of Christ's coming, rather than the fall of the church because they deny that God is judging the church which we do see and fear. Sounds like foolish virgins to you because they cannot correctly discern the signs?

And how do we understand the following phrases:

- "upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity" - "for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." Are these relates to church.. or the world?

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"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)