Treck wrote:Im not doubting your math, im just very suprised at the mastery vs avoidance correlations.I thought 122mastery would be a lot better than just equal to 132 avoidance rating.

Keep in mind that you may be talking about two different things. Mastery is better point-for-point than avoidance rating for reducing incoming damage after around 10%, but it's not ahead by very much. So when comparing mastery to avoidance, a slightly larger amount of avoidance will generally come out ahead. In this case, it takes 114 mastery to give the same damage reduction as 132 avoidance rating, which means the mastery is about 15% better at reducing damage intake point for point. Since one belt has more than 15% more avoidance rating than the other belt has mastery (132/95=1.389, or +39%), the avoidance belt will do a slightly better job of reducing damage intake.

However, that's just reducing damage intake, which may or may not be a relevant comparison for gearing. The mastery belt is far ahead in combat table coverage (CTC) because mastery is 2.5-3x stronger in that department rather than 15% stronger. Ala Digren's math, the 132 avoidance from the Conclave belt gives 0.5713% CTC, while the 95 mastery on the Jumbotron gives 1.19%.

Most people would argue that the extra CTC on the Jumbotron makes it the stronger choice, and I think I'd agree for the most part, though the difference is quite small. Either is an excellent belt. The Thunder Wall has the added advantage of versatility; as you pull ahead of the block cap, you could un-reforge back to pure avoidance for larger total damage reduction with no loss to CTC.

This is the difficulty of saying one belt "wins," or even that one is hands-down "better" than the other. You need to be very clear about what metric you're using, because not all metrics are created equal. A cat might be a "better" pet than a turtle because it's more entertaining, but that metric is of little use to the person with severe fur allergies.

I can (and have) given you very accurate equations for measuring relative damage reduction, and I could probably give you accurate equations for how mastery "smooths" damage input (TODO: do this), but I can't give you accurate equations for how "smoothing" damage input affects the reaction time and play style of your healers, or which one gives you a better chance of killing the boss.

I do think people sometimes forget that avoidance exists Tanks with 10% dodge, 12.5% parry, 60% block. I mean, that's good. But I'd much rather have 12.5% dodge, 13.5% parry (3.5% more) and 54% block (6% less). I made up these numbers but it's a trend I notice.

Digren wrote:This seems to make sense; in Theck's math in his derivation spreadsheet, he assumed smaller percentages of post-DR avoidance, and yielded a result where 122 mastery rating was equal to 132 avoidance rating.

So what does that mean? Well, the Jumbotron only provides 95 mastery rating, less than the 114 mastery rating necessary to match the Bouldercrag.

Im not doubting your math, im just very suprised at the mastery vs avoidance correlations.I thought 122mastery would be a lot better than just equal to 132 avoidance rating.Altho i have noticed something of this effect while using Chardev, since i dont do the math, i let that do it for me (to see the % gain from different gearparts, and i do hope its correct)

Atleast i got 372 of the rockslab on both ring/belt, so im not looking for any upgrades ^^

Keep in mind that I recommend for total damage reduction, not for combat table coverage.

I do this because, were I to recommend for combat table coverage, I would recommend things exactly like "take 50 mastery rating over 120 avoidance rating" and "use lower iLvl items that have mastery over anything lacking mastery". I thought about such recommendations, and realized that most people - even those who believe in CTC - aren't doing them.

Instead I think I'm recommending based on a reasonable middle ground. I gem for mixed mastery/stamina, I reforge largest stat into mastery, but then I treat avoidance as about 80% of the value of mastery. This results in what I believe to be pretty strong recommendations for a good all-around gear set.

Note that I don't do all the math in my last post for each item. Honestly that took three hours of work last night to write. My much simpler calculations add up three numbers: Mastery Rating Equivalent, Avoidance Rating Equivalent, and Stamina, and I weigh the relative values of those to compute one number.

In this case, Bouldercrag's number is 904 and Jumbotron's is 894. Anything with a difference of less than five I consider equal. (Hardened Elementium Girdle is 896 and thus equal to the Jumbotron; I list it first with an equal rank number.) I did not know until I'd finished and check my math whether the Bouldercrag or Jumbotron would come out ahead.

I fully expect Petrus and Vexryn and Yappo to do things differently and come out with difference recommendations. I think that the variety is good; if it sparks discussion then everyone learns something, and if you find yourself gearing more along the lines of one particular person, you have a guide you can follow.

Digren wrote:I fully expect Petrus and Vexryn and Yappo to do things differently and come out with difference recommendations. I think that the variety is good; if it sparks discussion then everyone learns something, and if you find yourself gearing more along the lines of one particular person, you have a guide you can follow.

Sorry do disappoint you, but I want to take as little damage as possible

Even though I skip stamina (almost) wherever possible in favour of CTC, I value avoidance too much to steer away from it. There's simply no way I can defend my gearing if I started swapping 1% avoidance for 1.1% block. Note that this still leaves me at some 89% CTC in my ilevel 353 pre-raid gear. I'm having marginal hopes up for the new sockets in the crafted gear come 4.0.6.

I would agree on not taking any agi loot just cuz it looks pretty, but if it IS BiS, be it with or without agi, it would be stupid NOT to upgrade it based on that it doesnt look like pure tanking loot.

Of course it should be passed to whom ever it is the biggest upgrade, but in the end of the day agi gives dodge and that is usefull when tanking.

Anyways its up to you to make the list I respect that.

Maybe you could add something in the initial post about how you rate the items, to me it seems to value Threat higher than I would (As I never seen treat problems except for the first 10 secs of an encounter).

Also if you could remove those BOE heroic items which dosnt exist? Think they were on PTR at an early point dropping from "heroic-trash" which dosnt exist on live as far as Im aware?

IMO, at this point there is only one agility item not easily replaced by an appriopriate tank item. And thats the boe neck. It is BIS untill you get hc modes, because there is no other mastery neck available on the 359 ilevel.

Also interesting is the rep ring because it is very easy to get and you usually get to keep it for a while.

Neither of these require you to pass to a dps user. I don't see any reason not to put these items in gear plans.

I picked up Thunder Wall Greaves of the Rockslab from Al'Akir http://thottbot.com/item=63501A lot of mastery and dodge to balance out the excess of parry on my gear, these look pretty good.Given the recent discussion on mastery stacking, I'd recommend this item is added to the list.

Petrus wrote:Am having less and less time to do this, but I'm going to try to get all the ZG/ZA stuff up on here by the weekend (hopefully by which time wowhead will have finished adding all the new items).

In advance, I will say Thank You Very Much for keeping this updated. I was trying to decide where the Zul gear should go (got the 353 Dodge/Parry gloves off the ZG cauldron boss and was trying to figure out their worth next to the 346 JP gloves). I know it comes down to a Mastery vs Avoidance discussion but was trying to figure out how much damage avoidance vs CTC those 2 items were.

Believe it or not, I haven't forgotten about this, and I am working on an update for 4.2.

I have a GF, school, and work, and I get lazy sometimes and tend not to visit maintankadin when I'm embarrassed about not having an update ready! I'm working on one now, though, so it should be ready within a few days for firelands.

Okay, I'm honestly considering retiring my list, if only because I simply don't have the time or drive to update it anymore. There are adequate lists out there, and the original purpose of the list - to help tanks see what gear is good and what's useless - is mostly covered/taken care of by other lists and a more generally knowledgeable playerbase.

If anyone REALLY prefers this list or still really wants me to update it for 4.3 (probably its final update), I can, but it will take a while because I need to include 4.2 and I'd only rather do it if people want it.

I also tend not to visit Maintankadin much because I'm almost scared of seeing my list here un-updated, and that's a bad thing because I like visiting and posting.

If no one requests an update by mid-October, I'll request an un-sticky.

I think, at this point, it's so woefully out of date (no 4.2 stuff) that most of us have switched over to Digren's list. So I suppose there's no sense in keeping two running, particularly if you find it a bit stressful.

Have to say though... been using your lists since I started playing this game. Thanks for all your work.

Yeah, the Wrath one was a great success, but having had many other commitments since Cata launch, it just got more and more taxing to keep track of all the new items. I am glad I did what I did, and am glad I can try to be a part of the community again without worrying about updating everything.

Ever since I first started playing my Paladin (my alt at the time) while we were guildies (DD v1.0), I have been using your list. Had to migrate to Digren's as well recently and not to take anything away from all of his hard work, but I always preferred yours over anything else. Thank you so much for all the help you provided the community with this gear list!

I wouldn't worry too much about not maintaining your list as Digren is keeping up-to-date in your absence.