let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

Damn, 20%. No way. I don't care if the route is going to be empty and will turn a 1 hour drive into 5 minutes, not worth it.

Now, how strict are we talking here? Are we allowed to gather massive amounts of protesters who will use the route and refuse to pay? Are the police really going to imprison 100, 200, 500 people? What's the amount of jail time we're going to spend? Are we going to be pulled over immediately or are we going to receive a letter and go to a court summons first?

Short term, I might have no choice but to take that route. I'd have to find another route, and make sure the extra time was worth the cost savings. Chances are, there aren't that many suitable alternative routes. Assuming I could find a suitable alternative route, I'd use it. If not, I'd obviously start looking for a new job, possibly in a new city or state. A 20% "pay cut" may suck, but it is still better than a 100% pay cut (unemployment)._________________lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

what if they were a private entity doing the same? I would decide if it is worth it and possibly do without.

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more._________________Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

Clearly it depends on the cost of the alternatives. If there were no alternatives then I would have to find another job because my current job would no longer be profitable._________________Your argument is invalid.

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like?

Well personally I'd say the thing that was "most wrong" about what he said is that he completely contradicted himself by saying he wasn't going to bite and then does right afterwards. But also he is avoiding the actual question entirely, which was called a thought experiment and then just arguing a point. Last but not least he is making completely unsubstantiated statements. But, pointing things like this out really never change anything. People are typically unwilling to ever let their mind evolve, grow, or change -- it's simply too frightening. Which is why I believe that so many discussions always devolve into factions of argument. So really I am wasting my breath much as energyman76b is in this thread, none here is ever likely to change their "pre-installed' beliefs no matter how much evidence is provided. This is apparently called the "Backfire Effect" by some, and it has scientifically been proven._________________

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

I lol'd._________________The popularity of Bernie Sanders tells me there is a large group of people in this country who want to do what is right, what is moral, and what is virtuous -- and yet have no idea how.

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like?

What's wrong with it is that it's quibbling. It's not material to the question. It's a red herring. It's a bullshit torpedo._________________History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. -- Abba Eban

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

how are the people in this thread evading road tolls any different than an investor who doesn't like US laws, so he stops investing in US companies, or even worse... moves out of the country entirely?

They are a lot less poorer.

Oh, you want a real answer? Okay, here goes:
The reason that people are looked down upon when they get rich and leave for a tax haven is that they have taken, but refuse to give. In many cases, they were able to prosper because of the services that are provided by the state: schools, roads, garbage collection, security, fire prevention, are the obvious ones - but there are many more specific benefits too, from tax exemptions to subsidies to military spending to health care. I am not claiming that they didn't build their business, but that in many cases, they were able to build their business because of the role the state fills in ensuring opportunity and providing security.

I don't see how your example captures any of that. Basically, you have demonstrated that people act in their own self interest, which is hardly a novel finding.

let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.

you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision?

you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.

Btw toll =|= taxes.

Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.

what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like?

Well I agree with you on the superiority of tolls. Why not replace all taxes with tolls or other kinds of user fees?

you want some things not to have their price reflective of quality. You wouldn't want a tiered system of state schools with user fees, for example. Or healthcare price to reflect the cost of care (hence insurance).

For all other things for which we think there isn't some broad benefit to uniform pricing, sure. Set up your damn tolls. They used to be a pain in the ass, but now with technology streamlining much of the process, it works ok.

The brits have a system whose ideal is user fees. Privatization is rampant here. Basically, everything with the exception of healthcare is privatized (and a patchy state school system). Except for a bloated state with bloated benefits (a big "except"), you may like it here.