Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 15:07:11 -0800
From: "Thomas L. Clark"
Subject: Death of Clarence L. Barnhart reported
I just spoke with David Barnahrt on the telephone. His father died
October 24, 1993. The obituary appeared in the _New York Times_
on October 26, 1993. Mr. Barnhart was born in 1900.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 00:15:38 -0500
From: "Gregory J. Pulliam"
Subject: longhandles
The cold weather is here in Chicago, and my thoughts have turned to long
underwear, which, in my youth in NE Mississippi (Aberdeen) I learned to refer
to as "long-handles." I learned the term from friends who were white, lower
socio-economic class. Being a still-poor ABD Asst. Prof, I am not yet able
to afford DARE--so I haven't even been able to look the term up there. Is
there a citation for it, and just as important, has anyone else out there ever
heard this item? Thanks in advance for all responses.
Greg Pulliam
IIT
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 05:47:35 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: longhandles
> The cold weather is here in Chicago, and my thoughts have turned to long
> underwear, which, in my youth in NE Mississippi (Aberdeen) I learned to refer
> to as "long-handles." I learned the term from friends who were white, lower
> socio-economic class. Being a still-poor ABD Asst. Prof, I am not yet able
> to afford DARE--so I haven't even been able to look the term up there. Is
> there a citation for it, and just as important, has anyone else out there ever
> heard this item? Thanks in advance for all responses.
I've heard it, although I don't think I've ever known anybody who actually
wore them. I've heard the term used in sort of a joking tone, like "Better
get out your long-handles -- it's gonna be cold today." The term is used
interchangeably with "long-johns."
I also am from Mississippi -- native of Jackson, resident of Starkville
for the past 20+ years.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:56:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker"
Subject: longhandles
I grew up in a suburb of Louisville, KY, mostly working and lower middle
class.We used the term in my family, although we did not wear the garment.
The term "longjohns" (always in the plural) was generally considered rural,
"countrified," and, of course, we city-bred folk were too sophisticated to
wear such articles of clothing.
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:58:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker"
Subject: longhandles
I signed off a little too quickly. The "longjohns" comment from the
ex-Louisville resident is from
Jim Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University
stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:20:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon
Subject: Re: longhandles
ABD's, and others on a campus, may find volumes 1 & 2 of DARE in the
library.
beth simon
DARE
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:37:00 CDT
From: Luanne von Schneidemesser
Subject: long-handles
Does DARE have long handles? Yes, and all kinds of
variants, as the list below shows:
GOURD HANDLES
HANDLEBARS
HANDLES
LONG HANDLE
LONG HANDLE DRAWERS
LONG HANDLE JOHNS
LONG HANDLE UNDERWEAR
LONG HANDLEBARS
LONG HANDLED UNDERWEAR
LONG HANDLEDS
LONG HANDLES
LONG-HANDLED DRAWERS
LONG-HANDLED UNDERWEAR
RED HANDLES
SHORT HANDLES
And yes, it is regional. Natalie and Jim are right. While
the North and North Midland may be unfamiliar with the term,
it is common in the rest of the country. We have 247 responses
with long handles or a form of it; add short handles, handlebars,
etc., and there are 261 responses.
And very soon we'll need them here in Wisconsin.
Luanne
Luanne von Schneidemesser
Dictionary of American Regional English
6129 H.C. White, UW-Madison, 53706
(608)263-2748
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 09:40:25 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Salugi?
Impatient for the relevant volume of DARE to appear, I was wondering if anyone
out there in ADS-Land can help me pin down the distribution and, if possible,
history of this term, used regularly for a game (or teasing-event) popular in
New York City--or at least one part of the city--during the 1950's. The
phonetic representation can be given as something like [s[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LU:ji], where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] is a
schwa and j is the usual voiced palatal affricate. I've never seen the word
in print, but always assumed it was Italian in origin, hence the spelling on
the subject line. I'll post my own gloss after I get some responses.
Larry Horn
P.S. Of course, I wanted data or intuitions about the meaning as well--how
is/was salugi played?
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 10:01:00 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: longhandles
James_C.Stalker:
>I grew up in a suburb of Louisville, KY, mostly working and lower middle
>class.We used the term in my family, although we did not wear the garment.
>The term "longjohns" (always in the plural) was generally considered rural,
>"countrified," and, of course, we city-bred folk were too sophisticated to
>wear such articles of clothing.
The term I was taught in Chicago, when several years ago I was advised how
to dress for the cold weather was "long Johns."
Salikoko S. Mufwene
Linguistics, U. of Chicago
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 12:30:45 EST
From: Robert Kelly
Subject: Re: long-handles
Some of us new to the postings ---and libraries in general--- could bear to
hear news about the current status of DARE and publication plans for future
volumes of this most valuable of all projects.
And are there any chances of CD-ROM versions of the published text, or all
the text? Or on-line access?
The Internet makes dreamers of us all...
R.Kelly
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 12:40:42 EST
From: Robert Kelly
Subject: Re: Salugi?
I learned the term watching it played, maybe even being a victim of it. I gew
_digo_ grew up in Brooklyn, but learned the "game" in Manhattan and the Bronx.
It is that fine old vicious childhood game of stealing a kid's hat and tossing
it from hand to hand over the kid's head or around the kid's back, hand to
hand in a circle of tormentors. Usually the kid is fat or short or weak or
wrong sex or wrong color--in any case, it is certainly a Persecution Model game,
but it was only played with the hat or cap or scarf--never with book or bag or
object. I learned the word, then, in Northern New York City in the 1950s, and
have heard it nowhere else. When I use it nowadays (expressive as it is), I
get blank stares, even from people whose local origin suggests they know the
game. I'd love to know if the word is still used down there --- and even
whether the symbolic-torture has given way to real ones, of whether it's
still possible to vex in so symbolic a fashion.
Sometimes the game was introduced by an older child, or stronger child, saying
Hey, let's play salugi [I've never seen the word spelled out, and accept the
spelling at hand]! or even, more craftily, Wanna play salugi? This last
was esteemed especial fun, since the victim is complicit with his own fate.
There was the hint that salugi was rare and fine and special---perhaps the
word itself is one of those brilliant coinages, at the nonce rich with
connotation and void of denotation.
I await more news.
R.Kelly
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 10:07:59 -0800
From: Janice Kammert
Subject: Re: longhandles
I grew up in an upper class suburb of Chicago in the 1960s-70s. We used the
term "longjohns." I even remember wearing them.
On Tue, 2 Nov 1993, James_C.Stalker wrote:
> I grew up in a suburb of Louisville, KY, mostly working and lower middle
> class.We used the term in my family, although we did not wear the garment.
> The term "longjohns" (always in the plural) was generally considered rural,
> "countrified," and, of course, we city-bred folk were too sophisticated to
>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 13:57:47 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: Salugi?
That's exactly it. I don't think your citing will widen the isogloss, but
whereabouts were you (more or less specifically) at the time? I was on West
163 St., Manhattan. I've always explained to friends outside the relevant
dialect area that salugi differs from keepaway precisely in that one couldn't
have proposed "Let's play salugi--I'll be it!" (Unless one was a masochist,
perhaps?) So you clearly have the same understanding of the form. Let's see
who else signs on.
Larry
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:02:53 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Anyone (else) for salugi?
Sorry, everyone. I hadn't noticed that the posting from R. Kelly went out to
the list rather than just to me--thus the reply I just posted to everyone. So
the secret is out. My familiarity with the term and the concept are the same
as that of the other poster. But please don't let that stop anyone else from
responding, whether or not your memories are the same. Is there any evidence
about when the term (or the "game") originated, whether it's still extant, or
(if not) when it died out? If the neighborhood in which I learned salugi
still plays it, they do so in Spanish, but perhaps it's around elsewhere.
Any DARE data?
Larry
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:31:56 -0500
From: james a tucker
Subject: Re: longhandles
I was raised on a farm in Lincoln County, Kentucky (in the
south-central part of the state) and often wore long
underwear while working outside during the winter. My
parents and grandparents always called them
long-handles (occasionally, long-johns). Hope this
helps.
---
--
-=+ James A. Tucker jatuck00[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mik.uky.edu +=-
-=+Classics/Economics Undergraduate University of Kentucky+=-
-=+ "Vex not thy spirit at the course of things; +=-
-=+ They heed not thy vexation." +=-
-=+ --Marcus Aurelius, quoting Euripides +=-
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 02:23:08 CST
From: Donald Lance
Subject: Re: longhandles
Is there another term for longhandles? That's what they are. Just like
snake doctors and tow sacks. Others have funny terms for lotsa things.
DARE goes only thru H, sop we'll have to wait till next year for 'longjohns'.
I eagerly await the next installment.
It has been cold here too, with snow flurries, but not like Chi Town, I'm
sure. DMLance
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 08:33:59 EST
From: Robert Kelly
Subject: Re: Salugi?
Isogloss barely quivers: I first played salugi on West 155th street. Though
that was in a CCNY context, hence a false sense of the local. But interesting
that the instances were only eight blocks apart. Are we onto a Vinegar Hill
microlect?
RK
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 09:51:49 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Salugi
I asked an e-mail friend who grew up in the Bronx in the '50s if he
had ever heard of Salugi. Here's his reply (forwarded with his
permission):
> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 23:03:12 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Ken Wolman"
> Subject: RE: Salugi
>
> SLOODJIE! Oh my God, I haven't thought of that in years! It's like Hot
> Potato. Poor sucker in the middle tries to get the ball, or his hat back,
> or something....
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 12:14:15 +22305606
From: "Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes."
Subject: longjohns
My father, a native Atlantan born in the 1920s, uses the term long-handled
underwear. It always has a slightly humorous connotation, as noted by Natalie.
Is this because such an artifact is so infrequently used in Georgia as to seem
somewhat ludicrous in itself? It's interesting to hear that others use the
term, since I just assumed it was another of the idiosyncrasies of my dad's
speech, like bumbershoot for umbrella.
Ellen Johnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abello.seci.uchile.cl
P.S. Thanks for the replies on variation and TESOL. The conference paper went
over well and it gave me an opportunity to learn some new things and relearn
some old ones, since I trained and worked as a foreign language teacher several
years ago. I'm currently reading Sociolinguistics and Second Lg. Acquisition
by Dennis Preston and recommend it for anyone interested in the topic.
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:16:00 CDT
From: Joan Houston Hall
Subject: salugi
DARE has several anecdotal quotes for -salugi-, all from NYC, from the
1950's-70's. The term has also made it into print, in Fred Ferretti's
book -The Great American Book of Sidewalk, Stoop, Dirt, Curb, and Alley
Games- (Workman Publishing Co., NY, 1975). Ferretti says: "-Saluggi,
or Saloogie-, is another rather simple game that derives from torment. Two or
more players simply take something..from another kid
dashing up and down the sidewalk while the owner tries desperately to get
back his or her property. The only rules are that whoever catches the item
must shout, "Saloogie on Chris's knife!," or "Saloogie on Stevie's model
plane!,"
or whatever and that the victim must be angry, which is not at all difficult.
It is not necessary to choose up for a game of Saloogie; rather, the predators
have to decide on a victim, which is also not difficult." Ferretti's domain is
Queens.
Joan Hall, DARE
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:45:00 CDT
From: Joan Houston Hall
Subject: Re: longhandles
The DARE data show some interesting contrasts for the long underwear terms.
There's a great map for -long handles-, showing a clear South, South Midland,
West distribution. The term -longies- fills in nicely in the North and
North Midland. -Long jeans- is found especially in the Central Atlantic and
New York. As for -long johns-, it's very widespread, but somewhat less
frequent in the South and South Midland. And -long drawers- is found
chiefly in the Atlantic states.
Joan Hall, DARE
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:18:57 -0800
From: Scott Schwenter
Subject: Re: salugi
>
> DARE has several anecdotal quotes for -salugi-, all from NYC, from the
> 1950's-70's. The term has also made it into print, in Fred Ferretti's
> book -The Great American Book of Sidewalk, Stoop, Dirt, Curb, and Alley
> Games- (Workman Publishing Co., NY, 1975). Ferretti says: "-Saluggi,
> or Saloogie-, is another rather simple game that derives from torment. Two or
> more players simply take something..from another kid
> dashing up and down the sidewalk while the owner tries desperately to get
> back his or her property. The only rules are that whoever catches the item
> must shout, "Saloogie on Chris's knife!," or "Saloogie on Stevie's model
> plane!,"
> or whatever and that the victim must be angry, which is not at all difficult.
> It is not necessary to choose up for a game of Saloogie; rather, the predators
> have to decide on a victim, which is also not difficult." Ferretti's domain i
s
> Queens.
> Joan Hall, DARE
>
Is this game the same as "monkey in the middle"?
Scott Schwenter
Linguistics
Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 11:16:41 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: longjohns
> term, since I just assumed it was another of the idiosyncrasies of my dad's
> speech, like bumbershoot for umbrella.
I also know "bumbershoot."
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:27:35 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: salugi
In connection with Scott Schwenter's query on the relation of salugi to
monkey-in-the-middle: as I mentioned earlier, and brought out in various
other posts, salugi is/was a rather malicious "game" (game in the sense that
giving someone noogies or a pink belly is a game) that MUST have a victim, one
who is not a willing player. At least for me, m-in-the-m has no such
constraints (both for me as a child, and now for my own children, there's
nothing inappropriate or masochistic about the suggestion "Let's play
monkey-in-the-middle; I'll be it." The suggestion "Let's play salugi on me"
has the flavor of "Why don't you tease me until I cry?" This was New York,
remember. LH
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 12:45:27 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: salugi
Funny timing. I forwarded some of the recent list discussion to my
friend who grew up in the Bronx and just got the following reply from
him (before I had even seen today's mention of Monkey-in-the-Middle):
> Sounds like saloogie/sloogie all right!
>
> Did I tell you it's also known as Monkey In The Middle? That's one I
> heard from Ann, who did not grow up in NYC, but on waaaaay out Eastern
> Long Island. You might wanna pass that on the ADS-L people, too.
(Ann is his wife.)
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:38:08 -0800
From: Donald Livingston
Subject: Re: bumbershoot
"Bumbershoot" is alive and well in Seattle where we have a yearly music
festival by that name. That brings about sentences that would probably
have been unthinkable to previous generations: "Hey, are you going to
Bumbershoot this weekend?" I leave it to the reader to discern why
Seattle would name such a major musical event "Bumbershoot".
On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Natalie Maynor wrote:
> > term, since I just assumed it was another of the idiosyncrasies of my dad's
> > speech, like bumbershoot for umbrella.
>
> I also know "bumbershoot."
> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
All the best, Don.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Livingston (Graduate Student)
4500 Whitman Ave. North #2 Dept. Slav. Lang. & Lit., DP-32
Seattle, WA 98103 University of Washington
Phone/Fax (206) 634-1539 Seattle, WA 98195
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 19:55:39 -0800
From: Donald Livingston
Subject: Proverb
Colleagues,
Somewhere over the last year I encountered a proverb or
saying that expressed the following idea: When in John's house,
dont' rave about Jim's talents/possessions/activities lest John
feel that you are obliquely slighting him (John) by not saying the
same of him. Does anyone know a proverb to that effect? I think
it was an English language proverb, but could have been Slavic or
Semitic. Thanks for you consideration!
All the best, Don.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Livingston (Graduate Student)
4500 Whitman Ave. North #2 Dept. Slav. Lang. & Lit., DP-32
Seattle, WA 98103 University of Washington
Phone/Fax (206) 634-1539 Seattle, WA 98195
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 19:35:54 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Canadian Fed Tax Refund
For all ADS members who will be in Toronto. I'm forwarding pertinent info
from Ed Lawson, Prog Chair for ANS.
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Refund for Visitors
Visitors to Canada may claim a refund of the 7% GST (Goods &
Services Tax) on leaving Canada. What you do is keep receipts
for lodging and goods purchased. The total has to be over $100.
You take the receipts to a desk in a duty free shop where an
immediate cash refund in given (in Canadian dollars). The
receipts are returned immediately. Meals do not count, nor does
transportation.
Note: this refund applies only to the federal tax, not to the
Ontario provincial tax.
Ed Lawson Psych SUNY-Fredonia NY 14063 (LAWSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FREDONIA)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:45:47 RSA
From: "m. lynne murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: 3 inches short
hello,
i've been told that the acceptability of sentence (1) below is regionally-
determined. i'd like to get a sense of where in the u.s. (or even outside
the u.s.) one can say the following:
(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches
of the table that the cloth fails to cover)
(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.
(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)
If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:
(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).
(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off
a bit before giving it to her).
Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the
package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals
10 degrees?
I'd appreciate judgments on these things from anyone and everyone.
Please indicate what area you're from or what dialect you consider
yourself to speak. Replies can be posted to me privately if you like.
Thanks in advance,
Lynne Murphy
University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg
104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:02:58 RSA
From: "m. lynne murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: addendum to 3" short
ach, i forgot an important question in the last message.
Can everyone say (a) and (b)?
(a) I was 10 minutes early for class.
(b) I was 10 minutes late for class.
thanks again for your time.
lynne murphy
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:26:01 -0500
From: "J. Chambers"
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
My inland urban middle-class Canadian English usage apparently matches
Lynne Murphy's. I can say
The tablecloth is 3" short
meaning it is too short to cover the whole table--3" remain uncovered.
But I can't say
The tablecloth is 3" long
meaning it is that much too long. I have to say it's 3" too long. And
I can't ordinarily say that the package is 7 oz heavy, meaning that
much too heavy for UPS, and I certainly can't say the baby bottle is
10 degrees warm, meaning that much too warm. This last sentence more
probably would be
The baby bottle is 10 degrees hot
but it doesn't help. It still can't mean that it's that much too hot.
So "short" appears to be a curiosity. I wonder if it's because "short"
is the marked member whereas "long" is the unmarked one, in Eve
Clark's terms. If so, then it should be o.k. to say
The doorstopper is thin
meaning it's too thin to hold the door open, the door slips right over
it, but no good to say
The doorstopper is thick
meaning it's too big to wedge under the door.To me, they sound equally
unlikely. --Jack Chambers
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:07:53 RSA
From: lynne murphy <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
thanks for your response to my query.
lynne murphy
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:25:14 CST
From: Dennis Baron
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
>(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches
> of the table that the cloth fails to cover)
Yes.
>
>(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.
>
No, unless there is a mark on the table -- but that is highly
contextualized.
>(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)
>
Yes.
>If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:
>
>(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).
No
>
>(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off
> a bit before giving it to her).
No.
>Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the
>package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals
>10 degrees?
But I can say, "The baby has a temperature" (=fever) and my mother
-in-law can say, "Dennis has cholesterol" (= high cholesterol). She's
from Chicago. I'm from NY.
>
So, M. Lynne, what else is new?
Dennis
--
debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392
\'\ fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron \'\ ____________
Department of English / '| ()___________)
University of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
608 South Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
Urbana, IL 61801 ==). \ __________\
(__) ()___________)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:40:41 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
I'm also in the dialect group that gets 3 inches short (= 'too short for X')
but none of the other adjectives. Of course, '3 inches long' is pre-empted by
its ordinary measure-term use from meaning '...too long', but why don't we get
'3 inches narrow', '2 feet small', etc.? My colleague Caroline Heycock (who
is from Scotland, but shares the dialect feature) suggests a relationship to
expressions like 'I'm 5 cents short' (where again, X short = 'short by X
amount'), and we also get e.g. We're two {players/screws/knives/...} short.
In these cases, the 'too short for' paraphrase doesn't work, but 'short by'
does.
Notice too that I think everyone can get the 'too X' reading with adverbs like
'a bit', 'a little' modifying the measure adjective: a bit tall/short/green,
etc. all can be interprested as 'a bit TOO adj (for...)'. I'd assume this is
a general pragmatic process, though.
Larry Horn
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:50:00 EST
From: Mark Ingram
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:45:47 RSA m. lynne murphy said:
>hello,
>
>i've been told that the acceptability of sentence (1) below is regionally-
>determined. i'd like to get a sense of where in the u.s. (or even outside
>the u.s.) one can say the following:
>
>(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches
> of the table that the cloth fails to cover)
This sounds just fine. I understand completely and do not find it confusing.
>(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.
This is more precise.
>(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)
This is also more precise.
>If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:
>
>(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).
>
>(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off
> a bit before giving it to her).
>
>Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the
>package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals
>10 degrees?
#4 and #5 are confusing. Is the package 7 oz too heavy? I think I need to
hear the word TOO in there. Same with a bottle 10 degrees TOO hot.
>I'd appreciate judgments on these things from anyone and everyone.
>Please indicate what area you're from or what dialect you consider
>yourself to speak. Replies can be posted to me privately if you like.
I grew up in the rural area just outside Louisville, Ky. We moved into
the suburbs of Louisville in the late 50s. I attended Catholic schools there.
I speak a regional standard. Some Kentuckians think I don't come from around
here. People from other states sometimes fail to place the accent. That is
a relatively common response to the speech patterns of someone from the
East end of Louisville.
Mark Ingram
Lexington, Ky.
>Thanks in advance,
>Lynne Murphy
>University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg
>104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:37:44 -0600
From: Anita Henderson
Subject: Re: addendum to 3" short
Yes, I can say both"10 minutes early/late for class." (Phila.
area/middle-class).
A. Henderson Univ.of Kansas
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 13:13:00 CDT
From: Joan Houston Hall
Subject: Re: salugi
Monkey-in-the-middle can become the same as salugi, but it can also start as an
officially sanctioned gym class game, with a circle
Joan Hall, DARE
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:22:35 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: salugi
I'm beginning to think (supported by postings like Joan Hall's and comments by
others outside the NYC dialect area) that there's a privative relation between
salug(g)i and monkey-in-the-middle/keepaway. Every instance of the former is
or can be an instance of the latter (modulo the actual speech act of
announcing "Salugi on your hat", etc.), but crucially not vice versa.
Salug(g)i can then be glossed essentially as monkey-in-the-middle with an
unwilling victim. (It's also crucial that the saluggied item be something
belonging to that victim.) For those reared in NYC during the relevant period
(the 1950's?), to come upon an innocent victimless game called
monkey-in-the-middle (or keepaway, which may or may not be the California
equivalent thereof[?]) leads to the inference that the teasing/torture variety
of the game doesn't fall within the scope of these labels, but the more
accurate conclusion is that NYC's salugi/monkey-in-the-middle distinction is
neutralized in the majority dialect, where the latter is simply unspecified
with respect to the [+/- unwilling victim] distinction.
Larry Horn
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:09:47 CST
From: Gerald Walton
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:45:47 RSA m. lynne murphy raised questions about
the acceptability of certain sentences:
>(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches
> of the table that the cloth fails to cover)
Acceptable to me, though adding _too_ would be preferred.
>(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.
Acceptable.
>(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)
Yes, I would think it universally acceptable.
>(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).
Not acceptable.
>(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off
> a bit before giving it to her).
Not acceptable.
"Acceptable" as I have used it means something like "would not be
used by speakers from my part of the country--almost 60 years
in Mississippi. GWW
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:17:30 CST
From: Gerald Walton
Subject: Re: addendum to 3" short
On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:02:58 RSA m. lynne murphy said:
>Can everyone say (a) and (b)?
>(a) I was 10 minutes early for class.
>(b) I was 10 minutes late for class.
Yes from me. GWW
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 19:28:56 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
Lynn has already thanked those who responded to her query about a table
cloth being 3" short. Of the questions she asked, that's the only one that
seems to be dialectal and that I say ("short of the mark"not seeming dialectal
to me). My language comes from growing up in South Texas with many neighbors
from all parts of the country. But this expression was also common in the
speech of my parents, both born in Arkansas.
By the way, a table cloth that is 3" short might go over the edges of the
table (i.e., actually cover all of the top) but be shorter than it oughta be
by 3".
DMLance
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 19:24:46 -0800
From: Donald Livingston
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
I find myself having interesting reactions to the sentences Lynn posted.
Though I myself would only actually produce a few of those forms, I would
not at all be surprised to hear almost any of them from local speakers
where I grew up, though I would consider some of them careless
speech, that is, that the speaker was not choosing his/her words
particularly carefully. I grew up in Tucson, Arizona (WASP middle class
family). I consider myself to speak standard TV broadcaster English.
> (1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches
> of the table that the cloth fails to cover)
Sounds normal to me in careless speech. I would say it occasionally
(Sorry, Lynne, changed my mind on this one).
> (2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.
Sounds grammatically normal to me, though somewhat high style. I would
rarely say it.
> (3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)
Absolutely normal.
> If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:
>
> (4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).
Sounds normal to me in careless speech. I wouldn't at all be surprised
to hear it at the local post office. I would never say it.
> (5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off
> a bit before giving it to her).
Sounds normal in careless speech. I would never say it, though.
> Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the
> package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals
> 10 degrees?
I would not at all be surprised to hear (4) and (5) with these meanings
in careless speech, but would never produce (4) with that meaning and
would only rarely produce (5) with that meaning.
Both (a) and (b) of the addendum are fine with my in all speech registers.
All the best, Don.
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:57:27 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: three inches
As I mentioned earlier, my British colleague Caroline Heycock (Glaswegian by
birth) shares the same judgment everyone else has on this, viz. that '3 inches
short' is impeccable, with the understanding 'short by 3 inches'. Indeed,
nobody has reported LACKING this form. So I checked the OED, and sure enough
under 18f of the adjectival listing for 'short' we have:
Preceded by a sb. or an expression of quantity, indicating what is lacking
of the required number or amount.
(Citations include 'We are a lady short' [1893], 'two pounds short in his
cash')
The point is that '3 inches short' is not a dialectal usage (in the sense that
only a specific geographically or socially definable group has it), and that
it's not a DISTINCT usage from that of 'X short', where X is ANY measure
expression whose semantics fits the context.
Larry Horn
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:08:04 EST
From: Robert Kelly
Subject: Re: three inches
While I (New York born) find "...short" natural and normal, my wife (Boston
born and raised) understands it but would never perform it, choosing
rather "...too short." So there may be a wiggling isoglossette after all.
Robert Kelly
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 23:48:33 -0700
From: Rudy Troike
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
I grew up 150 miles south of Don Lance, on the Mexican border in South Texas
and agree with most of the intuitions posted to date. The paraphrase "short
BY three inches/dollars" seems best to capture the sense.
--Rudy Troike
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:18:53 RSA
From: lynne murphy <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: three inches
well, the response to my query re: three inches short is
very appreciated. however, so far it doesn't seem that there is
any regionality to the distribution of three inches short,
since everybody seems to think it's ok. am i wrong?
lynne murphy
university of the witwatersrand
104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:48:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
There are indeed some interesting things to be said about 'short.'
First, it is surely not a matter of marked and unmarked. Neither of the pairs
narrow-wide, old-young, and so on fit the pattern 'It was three inches (years)
X' in the sense intended.
Note, however, that 'short' appears to be the only one of these forms which
has a verbal counterpart ('He shorted me three dollars,' 'They shorted me
three pounds,' and so on).
Additionally, this 'short' is surely no ndifferent than a host of other items
which fit this construction: 'It was three inches off,' 'It was three enches
shy,' 'It was three inches over,' 'It was three inches under.' All these
express the intended 'not to the standard or expected' interpretation.
Shouldn't we be looking at this wider range of facts? It strikes me that all
too often when we do dialect work we focus too narrowly on items.
By the way, although I do not think it is particularly important to this
discussion, I am an old lower-middle/upper-working class white man from
southern Indiana (far north side of Louisville, KY).
Dennis Preston
<22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:52:27 EST
From: Boyd Davis
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
Lynne, my dialect area - and my responses - match Dennis Preston's.
Dennis, wouldn't the notion of shortlisting fit here? I cannot think of
*longlisting
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:28:03 -0700
From: Rudy Troike
Subject: Re: three inches
I spoke to a visiting German prof from Dresden the other day, who could
hardly be strongly influenced by American English, and found that she had
the same interpretation of "three inches short".
Do we have any British speakers to ask?
--Rudy Troike
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:50:32 -0230
From: "Philip Hiscock, MUN Folklore & Language Archive"
Subject: Place names with 'eye'; Maritime Troytowns
In researching the origin of three Newfoundland placenames, two now
called "Traytown" and one now called "Triton," a local historian
has come upon the same spelling "Troy Town" used for all three at
one time or another in their histories. He asked me for an opinion
and I ventured that their particularly convoluted waterways led
18th and 19th sailors to refer to each place as a "troy town"
(aka "troyton", hence modern "Triton"), meaning maze-like.
I am familiar with the widespread use of "troytown" in
English and Scandinavian placenames for the sites of pre-historic
and medieval mazes cut into turf, etc. One such place was not far
from Poole, out of which port many Newfoundland settlers came.
But I do not know of any such placenames in North America, other than
these three in Newfoundland. Can anyone point me in the direction
of a Troytown (or a Troy) in North America that was not named simply
for classical allusion?
One of these Traytowns is on a small island now called
"Ireland's Eye," the main harbour of which is shaped like a helix or
volute. Convoluted indeed. I suspect the harbour was called the Island's
Eye, a name which folk etymologized into Ireland's Eye by the late 17th
century. I would be stronger in my conviction about this if I knew of some
other placenames, on either side of the Atlantic, with "Eye" referring
to a kind of volute or spiral shape.
Any takers?
Philip Hiscock
MUN Folklore & Language Archive
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St John's, Newfoundland
philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:31:39 -0800
From: "Thomas L. Clark"
Subject: Re: 3 inches short
Your message dated: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 23:48:33 -0700
--------
> I grew up 150 miles south of Don Lance, on the Mexican border in South Texas
> and agree with most of the intuitions posted to date. The paraphrase "short
> BY three inches/dollars" seems best to capture the sense.
> --Rudy Troike
I grew up 1500 miles north of Don and Rudy, on the Montana/Canadian border.
"3 inches short" doesn't have to be paraphrased, because that's the
unmarked form for me.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 11:15:41 -0600
From: Joan Livingston-Webber
Subject: 3" short
I would say the tablecloth is 3 inches short. I'd be more
likely to say this hem is 3 inches short, not having much
use for tablecloths. But I wouldn't say he is 3 inches
short (meaning too short for some purpose). (The giggle-
allusion is inadvertant, but I'm letting it stand.) I don't
think 3 inches short works for me with any animate subject. I
want to add some goal. The dog is 3 inches short of
AKC standards.
None of the other options works for me except the universal
one.
10 minutes late or early both work.
1st dialect = sw Pennsylvania, 1950-60's.
adult dialect adds from ND and IN. I don't know which one I
speak. I can't speak either and be heard as a native, tho if
I went home for long enough, I might.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 22:31:55 -0400
From: George Graham
Subject: song
===============================================================
A question arose the other day.
Some of my nursing students told me about a tape which helped them learn
the parts of the body by using music to stimulate memory.
So I bought one for myself (actually I used the excuse that my 7th grader
needed it). As I was listening to one of the songs the phrase was used ...
heading down south ... the phrase was in relation to the food moving down into
the stomach.
But I wasn't sure of the origin ... was it from the verticle position of a map
on the
wall ... and south being DOWN ????
Anyone have an idea ???
George G
ggraham[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pstcc.cc.tn.us
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:37:11 EST
From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: song
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783
To: NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"
The metaphor is fairly common: profits typically head south in a recession.
Analogously, dead cowboys head west [toward the setting sun].
David Bergdahl
Ohio University/Athens
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:58:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon
Subject: an address
does anyone have the list address for the Functional Linguistics list?
if so, please contact me. Thanks
beth simon
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:31:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon
Subject: Re: song
Has anyone else already mentioned that "gone south" means, or can mean,
"died"?
Beth Simon
DARE
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 23:57:50 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: song
Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?
Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"?
We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't
say "out north" or "out south" or "down west", would we?
These seem to me to be set expressions, and certainly mapping practices
contribute to these uses, but map directions don't explain "down east".
DMLance
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:54:57 -0230
From: "Philip Hiscock, MUN Folklore & Language Archive"
Subject: Down North
"Donald M. Lance" said,
>
>Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?
> Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"?
>We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't
>say "out north" or "out south" or "down west", would we?
>These seem to me to be set expressions, and certainly mapping practices
>contribute to these uses, but map directions don't explain "down east".
> DMLance
Here in Newfoundland one hears "down north" with pretty high
frequency, along with the folk explanation that old maps used to be
printed "upside-down." One also hears phrases like "up the Shore"
meaning south along what is called the Southern Shore (which runs
north-south, near St John's). "Up" often means "south", but only
rarely do you hear the collocation "up south."
"Down" a bay usually means towards the "bottom" (= the most
inland part) no matter what direction that takes you on the map.
The direction or movement from Newfoundland to Canada is
usually referred to as "up to Canada", or "up to the mainland" - this
is more or less west on the map. Although the phrase "down east" is often
used by Mainers and Maritime Canadians ( = PEI, NB and NS), I don't think
it is used by Newfoundlanders to refer to their home territory.
In Shakespeare's sonnet, I forget which number, he uses
"lowlands" or "nether regions" for the pubic area, but I can't remember
whether he uses a "south" metaphor. It seems to me he might have.
Does anyone have the sonnets close at hand?
-Philip Hiscock
philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:00:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
'South' equates with 'down' in a number of ways. I agree with Don
Lance that these are set expressions. I do, though, find
'out east' very awkward; I prefer 'back East.'
Remember my rapidly receding high school days, when a
female student had a tad of slip showing, we would always
say to her 'It's snowing down South.'
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:27:01 CST
From: Dennis Baron
Subject: Re: song
>We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'.
Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
Dennis
--
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: song
> Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
> say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:11:07 -0500
From: GURT%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: song
I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.
Joan C. Cook
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:24:47 -0800
From: Roger Vanderveen
Subject: song
I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.
I disagree. In keeping with the subject of this message, I quote part of an
folk song:
A north country maid
Down to London had strayed,
Although with her nature
It did not agree.
I will add though, in Cornwall in the southwest, they talk about going
"up to England". This would be generally a northeast direction.
-- Roger
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:41:12 CST
From: Dennis Baron
Subject: Re: song
In Message Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600,
Natalie Maynor writes:
>> Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
>> say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
>
>Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.
> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
They also go up to university and if they aren't good get sent down.
Which means, I suppose, they can go both up and down to London from
Cambridge. Rather like the old days when I walked 5 miles to school
in the snow uphill both ways.
Dennis
--
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:45:00 CST
From: Dennis Baron
Subject: Re: song
In Message Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:11:07 -0500, GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet writes:
>I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.
>
>Joan C. Cook
>Department of Linguistics
>Georgetown University
>gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu
And here in the US, depending on local custom, we go uptown or downtown
to get to the main part of town. I grew up in NYC--in Queens--and
when we went to Manhattan we always said we were going "To the city."
To go uptown or to go downtown also means to do something with energy,
to solo (musically or otherwise). And of course, crosstown busses run
all night. Doo dah. Doo dah.
Dennis
--
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:33:22 EST
From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: song
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783
To: NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"
Don,
Down east makes sense as a direction: on the maine coast a storm that comes from
the Atlantic provinces of Canada comes down [out of the] east.
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:26:42 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Bounced Mail
When including a previous posting, be sure to edit out all references
to ADS-L in the headers.
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:48:16 -0500
> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f)
> Subject: ADS-L: error report from LEVY.BARD.EDU
> To: Natalie Maynor
>
> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid
> 6914 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error
> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field
> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.
>
> ---------------------- Message in error (40 lines) -------------------------
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 21:47:41 EST
> From: kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]levy.bard.edu (Robert Kelly)
> Subject: Re: song
>
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600
> From: Natalie Maynor
> Subject: Re: song
>
> > Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
> > say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
>
> Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.
> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
>
> and people thrown out of Cambridge, whether they are headed N, E, S or W
> are "sent down."
>
> rk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:53:13 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Long-Awaited Book
The long-awaited book on language variation teaching and research is "in the
mail." Glowka and I got preview copies of the paperback last week.
LANGUAGE VARIATION IN NORTH AMERICAN ENGLISH: RESEARCH AND TEACHING, eds.
A. Wayne Glowka & Donald M. Lance. Published by MLA. Looks really good.
They've highlighted this volume in their latest publications announcement --
a two-page spread, twice as much space as they gave any other publication.
I understand they're gonna display it prominently at the book exhibit in
Toronto. And we'll have a copy at the BYOB session at ADS.
Thirty-nine original articles -- including Wolfram, Cassidy, Harold Allen,
and some luminaries too. DMLance
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:56:42 +0500
From: Robert Howren
Subject: down north
Donald M. Lance wrote:
>Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?
>Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"? We use 'out' with
>'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't say "out north" or
>"out south" or "down west", would we? These seem to me to be set
>expressions, and certainly mapping practices contribute to these uses, but
>map directions don't explain "down east".
In at least the western part of the McKenzie District of the Northwest
Territories of Canada, the regular association of "down" with north is due
to the presence of the McKenzie River, which flows for a thousand miles
north from Great Slave Lake to the Arctic coast. In the NWT, one goes
"down to Inuvik," which is at the McKenzie delta. Incidentally, from the
Territories, one goes "outside" to the provinces, or "out to Edmonton."
--Bob Howren Dept of Linguistics UNC-Chapel Hill
r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:58:25 EST
From: Boyd Davis
Subject: up south
"up south" has been in use here, in the Charlotte area, for at least the
last 25 years, primarily by the African-American community, with a
restricted and ironic meaning. The 'last 25 years' refers only to how
long I've been hearing this term. My colleague Mary Harper says that it
is an ironic, tongue-in-cheek way of saying that African-Americans find
the same problems above the Mason-Dixon line as below. Exchanges like
"Where's Anne been lately?" "She's been up south in Philadelphia/New
York/etc" mean that Anne went to Philadelphia/etc for more than a casual
visit to relatives or friends, probably related to employment, and found
conditions no different. Harper adds that the phrase has probably been
in use, at least locally, since WWII. African-American students at our
university who have grown up in the area often tease A-A students coming
here from New Jersey, New York, DC area, etc., by saying that they come
from 'up south' -- which is a multiple message. Part of the message is
"Excuse me, please, you may drop your sophisticated manner and your
expectations that I am a rustic, because you actually live up south -
that is, you have grown up under the same social realities that operate
on me, though you may not realize it - and this country mouse may know
a bit more about the real world than you do."
Harper reports that she has never heard *"down north" in any
sense. She sends a question for the group about "outin'":
People in the Piedmont NC area have referred - up until a few years
ago - to flannel nightwear as "outin'" (from 'outing flannel'). In
the last few years, this usage seems to have disappeared and its
occurence limited to the over-50 - and especially over-70 - group.
Is this usage regionally restricted?
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:45:45 CST
From: Dennis Baron
Subject: Re: up south
>She sends a question for the group about "outin'":
>People in the Piedmont NC area have referred - up until a few years
>ago - to flannel nightwear as "outin'" (from 'outing flannel'). In
>the last few years, this usage seems to have disappeared and its
>occurence limited to the over-50 - and especially over-70 - group.
>Is this usage regionally restricted?
Regionally restricted or not, outing may be driven out by the new
meaning of outing.
--
Dennis
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 07:54:58 +0500
From: Robert Howren
Subject: outin'
On Boyd Davis's query about "outin'":
I remember "outin" in this meaning from my childhood in northwest
Georgia. (I'm 64.)
==Bob Howren Dept. of Linguistics UNC-Chapel Hill r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu==
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:03:23 +22305606
From: "Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes."
Subject: uptown/barrios altos
In Atlanta there was traditionally an Uptown and a Downtown, the latter being
Five Points and the former near where Macy's is today. This may go back to a
time when there was actually some fairly empty space separating the two.
I've only heard it from natives of 50+ years old. It doesn't seem to have much
meaning currently. For one thing, what may have once been two separate
commercial districts runs together now, and for another, there aren't as many
natives left working downtown who might make this distinction.
I would only use 'uptown' in this restricted sense, I think. Here in Santiago,
I always come downtown to work on my e-mail at the computer center of the
university, never uptown.
The 'suburb' (very urban to me) where I live is the beginning of the 'barrios
altos', or, roughly, 'high neighborhoods'. This includes Providencia and newer
suburbs toward the east. The only catch is that there is a negligible, if any,
difference in altitude, as far as I can tell. It IS in the direction toward
the Cordillera of the Andes, but it is not hilly at all, except for the
isolated bumps or 'cerros' that occur at various locations around and in the
city. It might be a metaphor arising in the fact that these neighborhoods are
inhabited mostly by the rich. What may have been a metaphor is taken quite
literally, however. Many people have explained to me that there is less
pollution, that the air is clearer in these barrios altos (presumably because
of their height), but again, if this
is so, I can't tell any difference. Perhaps they breathe easier there, but for
other reasons... 'Up' is always applied to this area.
Ellen Johnson
ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abello.seci.uchile.cl
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:49 EST
From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: uptown/barrios altos
Here in Athens Ohio--one of those college towns three blocks long and two blocks
wide--for thirty years at least the kids have said they "uptown" to the bars
because Athens is too small to have a downtown!
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:42:35 -0500
From: Cathy Ball
Subject: Re: Diversity of accents
Thanks to everyone who responded to my query a while back re: diversity
of accents in the U.S. Here's the outcome (sorry it took so long!; original
copies are on their way to Robert Wachal and Donald Livingston, who got
cited.)
-- Cathy Ball (Georgetown)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Washington Post, Friday 10/15/1993 p. D5 (Style Section)
Why Things Are
by Joel Achenbach, Washington Post Staff Writer
James R, Odom of Olney asks:
"Why do people in different sections of the country speak with regional
accents?"
Dear Jim: We passed this question along to Cathy Ball, a linguist at
Georgetown University, and she then sent it out to the Internet (you know,
that big web of computers that spans the globe) to her colleagues in the
American Dialect Society.
We learned that accents are basically a product of immigration.
German immigrants settled in Pennsylvania, English and French
immigrants and African slaves in the Deep South, Scotch-Irish settlers in
the hills of Appalachia, Scandinavians in Minnesota, and so on. Accents
can mutate over time. "Members of lower socioeconomic classes often
imitate the speech of those in the class above them. The class above them
then adopts other features to distinguish them from the classes below
them," notes Robert Wachal of the University of Iowa. (Before the
Thurston Howells developed that lockjaw accent, they said "y'all" just like
everyone else.)
What surprised us most is that almost everyone said that
Americans don't have a great diversity of accents or dialects, at least not
anymore. Accents are preserved by geographic isolation, and with the
advent of mass media, many accents are melting away. Soon we'll all
sound like Tom Brokaw (but without the slight lisp). "The diversity of
accents in the U.S. is fairly narrow compared to, say, the diversity of
accents within just London proper," says Donald Livingston of the
University of Washington.
So maybe everyone should vow, this moment, to start pronouncing
words in a peculiar fashion (pronounced puh-KOOL-ya FATCH-un).
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 14:16:35 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: Long-Awaited Book
I've had a request to post more information on the "long-awaited" book.
Language Variation in North American English: Research and Teaching, eds.
A. Wayne Glowka and Donald M. Lance. Modern Language Association. Available
in December 1993. Cloth ISBN 389-X[E301C] $37.50 (MLA members $30).
Paper ISBN 390-3[E301P] $19.75 (MLA members $15.80.
Modern Language Association, 10 Astor Place, New York NY 10003-6981. Phone
orders 212/614-6384. Fax order 212/477-9863.
As you're thinking of books for your research and/or your dialect seminars,
also keep in mind another excellent ADS Centennial 1993 book:
American Dialect Research, ed. Dennis R. Preston. John Benjamins, 1993.
Maybe Dennis can post ordering info on the List. DMLance
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 14:30:02 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: outin'
I remember my mother (born sw Arkansas) talking about outing (night)gowns.
The fabric looked like flannel to me.
DMLance
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 14:49:53 -0600
From: Alan Slotkin
Subject: linguistic nationalism
I have an undergraduate student who has become interested in the politics of
language, especially the use of a majority language to repress minorities,
English-only style movements, and related topics. As this is far removed
from my areas of interest, I'm at a loss on recommending recent--and fairly
elementary--sources for him. Any suggestions. I'd appreciate your
responding directly to me:
Alan Slotkin
ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.BITNET
Thanks.
Alan
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 18:25:32 -0800
From: "Thomas L. Clark"
Subject: Re: uptown/barrios altos
Your message dated: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:49 EST
--------
> From: NAME: David Bergdahl
> Here in Athens Ohio--one of those college towns three blocks long and two blo
***cks
> wide--for thirty years at least the kids have said they "uptown" to the bars
> because Athens is too small to have a downtown!
> David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
> BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
As I recall Athens (fondly) David, I remember that from the East Quad,
students had to struggle up a steep hill to get to the uptown bars. Same
held true for the South Quad, "down" by the stadium (Bobcat's Sandbox).
Most of the dorms were down in these hollers, and only the frats were
"up" on the hill, near admin, and Oh Yes, My Lovely, the English Dept.
In fact, as I recall, it was uphill both ways from where I lived on
Stewart Street.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154 (Gateway to Idaho)
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 00:00:48 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Nov 1993 to 22 Nov 1993
There are 13 messages totalling 317 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. linguistic nationalism (2)
2. Diversity of accents (10)
3. song
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:36:21 -0500
From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."
Subject: Re: linguistic nationalism
I think the language planning section of Ralph Fasold's *The
Sociolinguistics of Society* (Blackwell, 1984) would be an excellent
place to start (the last three chapters, 70 pp.). If your student is
motivated, you might also suggest the three chapters before that, on
language attitudes, choice, and maintenance (c. 100 pp.). Our English
First movement seems to me to be motivated by just the collection of
fears and special interests that everybody else in the world of language
planning is trying to deal with.
******************************************************************************
Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246
Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181
University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu
Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga