I don't recall if the Arsinoe claim was discussed here but it is clearly HIGHLY questionable. The girl is much younger than expected, her body shows no signs of violence AND she was buried in an expensive tomb which I believe dates somewhat after the period Arsinoe supposedly died.

Cleopatra's death has been discussedI believe. The snake story seems to have been generally dismissed by modern historians. The varied causes given in ancient sources suggest that the Romans themselves were unsure how she managed it. Cleo's supposed skill with poisons could be mythical but it would be a reasonable method for her to use to commit suicide.

The statues of her twins is a new one on me. I wonder if the snakes could be a reference to Hercules? I believe the Antonii had some claims of descent from that hero.

Cleopatra's death has been discussedI believe. The snake story seems to have been generally dismissed by modern historians. The varied causes given in ancient sources suggest that the Romans themselves were unsure how she managed it. Cleo's supposed skill with poisons could be mythical but it would be a reasonable method for her to use to commit suicide.

The point made about the pain and disfiguring by snakebite, as well as the variability of its effects, is one that should be considered, however. The Egyptian medicinal texts note variability in venom specifically. I often wondered why and how Cleopatra's handmaids would have retained the cobra, as they are notoriously fast moving, and they also need time to replenish their venom after a strike.

The snake story pf the queen's death was advocated by Octavian, who had decided to take Cleopatra to Rome in a triumph, since Antony was dead, and the Roman sentiment was solidly against the queen for the war between Rome and Egypt, seeing her as seducing - personally and politically - Antony from Rome. He needed her alive and more importantly, in good condition, as Plutarch notes:

Many kings and great commanders made petition to Caesar for the body of Antony, to give him his funeral rites; but he would not take away his corpse from Cleopatra by whose hands he was buried with royal splendour and magnificence, it being granted to her to employ what she pleased on his funeral. In this extremity of grief and sorrow, and having inflamed and ulcerated her breasts with beating them, she fell into a high fever, and was very glad of the occasion, hoping, under this pretext, to abstain from food, and so to die in quiet without interference. She had her own physician, Olympus, to whom she told the truth, and asked his advice and help to put an end to herself, as Olympus himself has told us, in a narrative which he wrote of these events. But Caesar, suspecting her purpose, took to menacing language about her children, and excited her fears for them, before which engines her purpose shook and gave way, so that she suffered those about her to give her what meat or medicine they pleased.

Some few days after, Caesar himself came to make her a visit and comfort her. She lay then upon her pallet-bed in undress, and, on his entering, sprang up from off her bed, having nothing on but the one garment next her body, and flung herself at his feet, her hair and face looking wild and disfigured, her voice quivering, and her eyes sunk in her head. The marks of the blows she had given herself were visible about her bosom, and altogether her whole person seemed no less afflicted than her soul. But, for all this, her old charm, and the boldness of her youthful beauty, had not wholly left her, and, in spite of her present condition, still sparkled from within, and let itself appear in all the movements of her countenance. Caesar, desiring her to repose herself, sat down by her; and, on this opportunity, she said something to justify her actions, attributing what she had done to the necessity she was under, and to her fear of Antony; and when Caesar, on each point, made his objections, and she found herself confuted, she broke off at once into language of entreaty and deprecation, as if she desired nothing more than to prolong her life.

And at last, having by her a list of her treasure, she gave it into his hands; and when Seleucus, one of her stewards, who was by, pointed out that various articles were omitted, and charged her with secreting them, she flew up and caught him by the hair, and struck him several blows on the face. Caesar smiling and withholding her, "Is it not very hard, Caesar," said she, "when you do me the honour to visit me in this condition I am in, that I should be accused by one of my own servants of laying by some women's toys, not meant to adorn, be sure, my unhappy self, but that I might have some little present by me to make your Octavia and your Livia, that by their intercession I might hope to find you in some measure disposed to mercy?" Caesar was pleased to hear her talk thus, being now assured that she was desirous to live. And, therefore, letting her know that the things she had laid by she might dispose of as she pleased, and his usage of her should be honourable above her expectation, he went away, well satisfied that he had overreached her, but, in fact, was himself deceived.

Afterwards, Cleopatra prepares a bath for herself, and then has a sumptuous meal made for her, Plutarch then continues:

And a country fellow brought her a little basket, which the guards intercepting and asking what it was the fellow put the leaves which lay uppermost aside, and showed them it was full of figs; and on their admiring the largeness and beauty of the figs, he laughed, and invited them to take some, which they refused, and, suspecting nothing, bade him carry them in. After her repast, Cleopatra sent to Caesar a letter which she had written and sealed; and, putting everybody out of the monument but her two women, she shut the doors. Caesar, opening her letter, and finding pathetic prayers and entreaties that she might be buried in the same tomb with Antony, soon guessed what was doing. At first he was going himself in all haste, but, changing his mind, he sent others to see. The thing had been quickly done. The messengers came at full speed, and found the guards apprehensive of nothing; but on opening the doors they saw her stone-dead, lying upon a bed of gold, set out in all her royal ornaments. Iras, one of her women, lay dying at her feet, and Charmion, just ready to fall, scarce able to hold up her head, was adjusting her mistress's diadem. And when one that came in said angrily, "Was this well done of your lady, Charmion?" "Extremely well," she answered, "and as became the descendant of so many kings;" and as she said this, she fell down dead by the bedside.

After recounting the various asp stories as instrument of her death, Plutarch noted:

But what really took place is known to no one, since it was also said that she carried poison in a hollow bodkin, about which she wound her hair; yet there was not so much as a spot found, or any symptom of poison upon her body, nor was the asp seen within the monument;... Some relate that two faint puncture-marks were found on Cleopatra's arm, and to this account (that she was killed by an asp) Caesar seems to have given credit; for in his triumph there was carried a figure of Cleopatra, with an asp clinging to her. Such are the various accounts. But Caesar, though much disappointed by her death, yet could not but admire the greatness of her spirit, and gave order that her body should be buried by Antony with royal splendour and magnificence. Her women, also, received honourable burial by his directions.

How much Octavian 'admired' her is a matter of conjecture, as she had robbed him of his triumphal prize, but being Roman, he admired the way she, as a captive ruler, had decided to die honourably, as would any Roman warrior.

I have doubts that Octavian had her murdered: for one, Cleopatra was far too valuable to him as a part of political propaganda, and even as much as the Romans may have cause to hate her, simply slaughtering her, as a ruler of a country that had been allies with Rome under her father, probably would not have been politically advisable for Octavian. He needed to bolster his claim to Caesar's lineage by being beneficent to his enemies, as well as stave off those who would have seen his murder of Caesarion and his mother as only political expedients for his attaining rule in Rome as Caesar's heir.

However, that Cleopatra had tricked him probably grated Octavian, and this story of the beaten slave Seleucus does indicate that that there was probably something about those "...women's toys" that likely contained something she needed - perhaps a poison._________________Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

they have never stated the servants bodies were inspected, so i have often wondered if they all died by the same poison. i suspect cleopatra could have stored some poison in a small vial and kept it somewhere. inside furniture, a niche in a wall, a pot plant. but the 2 'bites' on her arm is hard to explain. obviously two points of entry, but snake bite? hair pin?

interesting plutarch said she was buried with antony, and the servants buried too. i had often wondered if he would have buried her. i guess he would have too to keep egypt stable in the aftermath of occupation._________________heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....

they have never stated the servants bodies were inspected, so i have often wondered if they all died by the same poison. i suspect cleopatra could have stored some poison in a small vial and kept it somewhere. inside furniture, a niche in a wall, a pot plant. but the 2 'bites' on her arm is hard to explain. obviously two points of entry, but snake bite? hair pin?

interesting plutarch said she was buried with antony, and the servants buried too. i had often wondered if he would have buried her. i guess he would have too to keep egypt stable in the aftermath of occupation.

Nowhere is it stated there were "bites" on her arm: Plutarch is clear that "...Some relate that two faint puncture-marks were found on Cleopatra's arm." It appears that Ocatvian jumped on this and then went on to assume that these were snake bite marks. The so-called "hollow bodkin" that Cleopatra wore in her hair could easily have made those marks. This to me seems more likely for if the asp were the only poison available to the queen (and the Romans made a search of her and her servants to prevent her suicide by poison), then her servants would have used the asp, which begs the question if that was possible, as a killing bite would have depleted the cobra's venom, which is 300 mg in a single bite.

Further, death from an Egyptian asp's venom is relatively slow, and the snake is large, so it would be hard to conceal, particularly in a "basket of figs." Further, envenomation by the Egyptian cobra causes local pain, severe swelling, bruising, blistering, necrosis and variable non-specific effects which may include nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea, dizziness, collapse or convulsions along with possible moderate to severe flaccid paralysis.

One of the striking things noted in both Plutarch's and Dio's accounts of Cleopatra's death is that no mark of poison was found on the queen's body (nor on the maidservants' bodies as well). This argues for a poison other than cobra venom, which kills painlessly, quickly, and without leaving a mark on the body.

Cassius Dio writes, concerning the care taken with Cleopatra after her capture by Octavian:

3 Now Caesar was anxious not only to get possession of her treasures but also to seize her alive and to carry her back for his triumph, yet he was unwilling to appear to have tricked her himself after having given her a kind of pledge, since he wished to treat her as a captive and to a certain extent subdued against her will.

4 He therefore sent to her Gaius Proculeius, a knight, and Epaphroditus, a freedman, giving them directions as to what they were to say and do. Following out this plan, they obtained an audience with Cleopatra, and after discussing with her some moderate proposals they suddenly seized her before any agreement was reached.

5 After this they put out of her way everything by means of which she could cause her own death and allowed her to spend some days where she was, occupied in embalming Antony's body; then they took her to the palace, but did not remove any of her accustomed retinue or attendants, in order that she should entertain more hope than ever of accomplishing all she desired, and so should do no harm to herself. (Dio, Roman History, Book 51, Chapt. 11).

Even Dio notes that Cleopatra had every intention of dying, but like the Seleucus story, she changes her tune during her meeting with Octavian, particularly when Octavian worries that she may kill herself, and states otherwise, saying she wishes to give part of her treasury for Ocatvian's and Livia's use (similar to Plutarch's Seleucus story), ash she has faith in them to do the right thing by her. Dio states:

5 Such were the subtleties of speech and of attitude which she employed, and sweet were the glances she cast at him and the words she murmured to him. Now Caesar was not insensible to the ardour of her speech and the appeal to his passions, but he pretended to be; and letting his eyes rest upon the ground, he merely said: "Be of good cheer, woman, and keep a stout heart; for you shall suffer no harm."

6 She was greatly distressed because he would neither look at her nor say anything about the kingdom nor even utter a word of love, and falling at his knees, she said with an outburst of sobbing: "I neither wish to live nor can I live, Caesar. But this favour I beg of you in memory of your father, that, since Heaven gave me to Antony after him, I may also die with Antony.

7 Would that I had perished then, straightway after Caesar! But since it was decreed by fate that I should suffer this affliction also, send me to Antony; grudge me not burial with him, in order that, as it is because of him I die, so I may dwell with him even in Hades."

Chapter 13

1 Such words she uttered, expecting to move him to pity, but Caesar made no answer to them; fearing, however, that she might destroy herself, he exhorted her again to be of good cheer, and not only did not remove any of her attendants but also took special care of her, that she might add brilliance to his triumph.

2 This purpose she suspected, and regarding that fate as worse than a thousand deaths, she conceived a genuine desire to die, and not only addressed many entreaties to Caesar that she might perish in some manner or other, but also devised many plans herself.

3 But when she could accomplish nothing, she feigned a change of heart, pretending to set great hopes in him and also in Livia. She said she would sail of her own free will, and she made ready some treasured articles of adornment to use as gifts, in the hope that by these means she might inspire belief that it was not her purpose to die, and so might be less closely guarded and thus be able to destroy herself.

4 And so it came about. For as soon as the others and Epaphroditus, to whose charge she had been committed, had come to believe that she really felt as she pretended to, and neglected to keep a careful watch, she made her preparations to die as painlessly as possible. First she gave a sealed paper, in which she begged Caesar to order that she be buried beside Antony, to Epaphroditus himself to deliver,

5 pretending that it contained some other matter, and then, having by this excuse freed herself of his presence, she set to her task. She put on her most beautiful apparel, arranged her body in most seemly fashion, took in her hands all the emblems of royalty, and so died. (Dio, Roman History, Book 51, Chapt. 12-13; emphasis, mine)

Cassius Dio then makes a clear distinction of Cleopatra's and her handmaidens' deaths (note in particular the story of the Psylli) as opposed to that of her male servant, named Apollodorus, who definitively died by asp bite; Dio is also clear what perturbed Octavian the most about her death (see part 6):

Chapter 14
1 No one knows clearly in what way she perished, for the only marks on her body were slight pricks on the arm. Some say she applied to herself an asp which had been brought in to her in a water-jar, or perhaps hidden in some flowers.

2 Others declare that she had smeared a pin, with which she was wont to fasten her hair, with some poison possessed of such a property that in ordinary circumstances it would not injure the body at all, but if it came into contact with even a drop of blood would destroy the body very quietly and painlessly; and that previous to this time she had worn it in her hair as usual, but now had made a slight scratch on her arm and had dipped the pin in the blood.

3 In this or in some very similar way she perished, and her two handmaidens with her. As for the eunuch (Apollodorus), he had of his own accord delivered himself up to the serpents at the very time of Cleopatra's arrest, and after being bitten by them had leaped into a coffin already prepared for him. When Caesar heard of Cleopatra's death, he was astounded, and not only viewed her body but also made use of drugs and Psylli in the hope that she might revive.

4 These Psylli are males, for there is no woman born in their tribe, and they have the power to suck out any poison of any reptile, if use is made of them immediately, before the victim dies; and they are not harmed themselves when bitten by any such creature.

5 They are propagated from one another and they test their offspring either by having them thrown among serpents as soon as they are born or else by having their swaddling-clothes thrown upon serpents; for the reptiles in the one case do no harm to the child, and in the other case are benumbed by its clothing.

6 So much for this matter. But Caesar, when he could not in any way resuscitate Cleopatra, felt both admiration and pity for her, and was excessively grieved on his own account, as if he had been deprived of all the glory of his victory. (Dio, Roman History, Book 51, Chapt. 14)

Even Plutarch relates that there were two slight pricks on her arm and that poison might have been hidden in a hollow comb (knestis), a word used rarely enough to suggest that he may have adhered to an earlier account (LXXXVI.2-3). In all, the evidence for death by asp seems very unlikely.

I have always thought that Octavian jumped on the "asp" story a bit too quick: such a story exculpated him from her death, had a certain amount of political symbolism the Romans loved ("the symbol of her own country killed her" might have been a way to play her death to the Roman masses), and of course, made it look more like a "hand of fate" type of death rather than show up his sloppiness in assuring she had no access to poison.

I think the rather telling story of Seleucus in Plutarch (where she beats said slave for saying she's kept back items from Octavian (the "laying by some women's toys, not meant to adorn, be sure, my unhappy self, but that I might have some little present by me to make your Octavia and your Livia" as she calls the items) was possibly more than overwrought than needed be, IF these items contained the poison by which she actually used for her and her handmaidens' deaths.

I think it's interesting that both Plutarch and Dio make the point of her supposedly retaining adornment items to make gifts to Livia (and Octavia). As Plutarch notes, one of these item was supposedly a knestis, or hollow comb, with which the queen wound her hair, which is more detailed in Dio's account as to how she could have used this comb to prick her arm to cause a quick and painless death. So, I can see why Cleopatra flew into a rage and quickly beat Seleucus for noting she retained certain items away from Octavian, by saying these were only gifts she intended for Octavian's wife and sister, when in fact they were her only means to conduct a successful suicide.

Of course, we will never know how the queen died, unless we - in the future - find her remains in Egypt, where she was laid to rest with Marc Antony. According to all accounts, they were placed in the same tomb, though it is not clear if it was in her mausoleum or in another tomb, possibly prepared for Antony. The location of the tomb is never made clear in classical accounts at any rate.

The last I read, in terms of excavations at this time, however, the likelihood of such a find seems rather doubtful at the moment, despite the numerous claims of Dr. Hawass a few years back.

that's absolutely fascinating neseret. it makes sense she would use a poison, as she was noted to have tested them on prisoners before octavian had arrived after the battle of actium. so she would have found a few quick ones, but i remember reading she could not find one that was a quick AND painless death.

i also find interesting, as famous as cleopatra was, her tomb is almost never mentioned. as one of rome's most 'dangerous' enemies, surely people would want to see the tomb of the woman who almost ruled the known world. egyptians at least must have made pilgrimages. so why the silence on where her tomb was, how she was buried etc. is it possible octavian had it sealed so people could not enter it, or the compound it was in?

you don't hear of octavian desecrating the ptolemaic tombs either. i would assume they were buried with gold and jewels, like previous dynasties._________________heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian does

Yes it is true that we have a couple of documents concerning her death, but what do we really have? Documents written by people who neither met Cleopatra, nor Octavian, and these same documents are basically hearsay from people who knew people, that said ... yadda yadda yadda.
To view Cleopatra as a person who would commit suicide, is to view her through tainted eyes. Eyes or views from limited sources. Octavian himself was reported to have destroyed over 2,000 documents around the time of Cleopatra's death. Was he hiding something? Hmmm...
It is my view that she tricked him, and he was beyond mad that he didn't see it coming. Tricked him *Octavian* not by killing herself, but by escaping and having a "stand-in" take her suicidal place.
She, as the "New Isis," would not have bowed down to Roman's ways of nobility (as in, "committing suicide as an honorable escape"), she, Cleopatra, the New Isis, would have planned this moment of escape since the moment Octavian declared war upon her, especially after the "signs" that were shown by the "Gods" all indicated Anthony's death, not hers.
History shows, she would have had at least a year to come up with a plan after Octavian's announcement. Just because evidence to the contrary hasn't been discovered, doesn't mean that THIS isn't what happened. Octavian would surely have NOT wanted anyone to know how he had been tricked by a woman. Even by a woman that stood in a class by herself.
It is easy to see this as being as plausible as the afore mentioned "death by snake" thought, which is most likely a contrived story from Octavian who was trying to save face.
Cleopatra visited Anthony on the 8th or 9th day after his death, (*a roman custom to pay homage to the dead on the 9th day after death*) it is quite plausible that Cleopatra switched places with her look a like at that point. Because it is shortly afterward that she "died."
How odd it is that three days later, a priest in Heliopolis died. He may have been the priest who assisted her in her escape, hence his "unexplained/sudden" death.
I say this is plausible because, first: few people, including Octavian's guards, really "knew" what Cleopatra looked like. Anyone close to her likeness, dressed in royal garb could indeed look like her, dead or alive. Second, Octavian may have known it wasn't her but didn't want anyone to know how badly he had been out played, and third, do you really think Cleopatra's doctor Olympa (sp?) wouldn't have been on Cleopatra's side? Hmmmm.... Makes one think doesn't it?
And how truly Egyptian is that? Making one think?
Peace out to all._________________With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian d

Va Phenix wrote:

have bowed down to Roman's ways of nobility (as in, "committing suicide as an honorable escape")

suicide in ancient greece and rome was an honourable and heroic death. cleopatra was greek after all. there are many times in classic myth where people commit suicide. it is only with the advent of christianity that suicide became a negative connotation._________________heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian d

kylejustin wrote:

Va Phenix wrote:

have bowed down to Roman's ways of nobility (as in, "committing suicide as an honorable escape")

suicide in ancient greece and rome was an honourable and heroic death. cleopatra was greek after all. there are many times in classic myth where people commit suicide. it is only with the advent of christianity that suicide became a negative connotation.

Yes Kyle, you are correct regarding Greece and Rome and Cleopatra's bloodline heritage, however, Cleopatra considered herself to be Egyptian, as well as the "New Isis." It doesn't sound like much until you look into the aspects of Isis.
Cleopatra was the only one in her family that ruled Egypt for 300 years, to take the time and learn the now extinct Egyptian language. Her complexity is demonstrated by the fact that she would were the ring of the goddess Methe *sp?* who was the goddess of drunkenness, but in the center was an amethyst stone, which stood for sobriety. By wearing the ring, she was displaying her mastery over alcohol.
Basically what I am saying is ... when thinking about WHO Cleopatra was, we have to think outside the given information or documents that have been discovered. Limiting oneself to the biased sources is a kin to only watching Fox news, and believing they are speaking the whole truth._________________With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian d

[quote="Va Phenix"]

Quote:

Cleopatra was the only one in her family that ruled Egypt for 300 years, to take the time and learn the now extinct Egyptian language.

The Egyptian language wasn't extinct at the time of Cleopatra if that's what you meant. It was still spoken all over Egypt and known even in Alexandria, where it had given way to Greek. Demotic and Coptic are the last stages of Egyptian and, in the Christian era of Egypt, which was the religion of the land until the Moslem conquest,[roughly 700 AD] religious texts were written in Coptic and not Greek [albeit with the Greek alphabet].
The Rosetta Stone shows the way things were. It was composed in an upgraded form of Middle Egyptian, written in hieroglyphs, Demotic, the vernacular, also written in hieroglyphs, and Greek.

I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. I realize the Egyptian language wasn't extinct at the time, but today it is.
My main point was, Cleopatra was the only one in her family to take the time to learn the language of the million or so people they ruled over. This extra effort on her behalf demonstrates her strong character._________________With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian d

Va Phenix wrote:

kylejustin wrote:

Va Phenix wrote:

have bowed down to Roman's ways of nobility (as in, "committing suicide as an honorable escape")

suicide in ancient greece and rome was an honourable and heroic death. cleopatra was greek after all. there are many times in classic myth where people commit suicide. it is only with the advent of christianity that suicide became a negative connotation.

Yes Kyle, you are correct regarding Greece and Rome and Cleopatra's bloodline heritage, however, Cleopatra considered herself to be Egyptian, as well as the "New Isis." It doesn't sound like much until you look into the aspects of Isis. ...

Egyptian gods could certainly die. The best known example is the consort of Isis, Osiris.

Va Phenix wrote:

... Her complexity is demonstrated by the fact that she would were the ring of the goddess Methe *sp?* who was the goddess of drunkenness, but in the center was an amethyst stone, which stood for sobriety. By wearing the ring, she was displaying her mastery over alcohol. ...

With the name the goddess you mention I can not begin the slightest. And, from which source derived your statement about these ominous ring?

Va Phenix wrote:

... Basically what I am saying is ... when thinking about WHO Cleopatra was, we have to think outside the given information or documents that have been discovered. ...

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian d

Lutz wrote:

Egyptian gods could certainly die. The best known example is the consort of Isis, Osiris.

Va Phenix wrote:

... Her complexity is demonstrated by the fact that she would were the ring of the goddess Methe *sp?* who was the goddess of drunkenness, but in the center was an amethyst stone, which stood for sobriety. By wearing the ring, she was displaying her mastery over alcohol. ...

With the name the goddess you mention I can not begin the slightest. And, from which source derived your statement about these ominous ring?

Va Phenix wrote:

... Basically what I am saying is ... when thinking about WHO Cleopatra was, we have to think outside the given information or documents that have been discovered. ...

If you want to write a more or less historical novel, sure...

Lutz

You are cute Lutz.
Of course Cleopatra did eventually die, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What I was trying to state was she die at the time the Romans stated she did.
I recently had to do a rhetorical paper in English class and The Search for Cleopatra, by Michael Foss was one of the books I used. His book is where I got the ring information from.
And you are cute Lutz because of your last statement/quote. I feel to better understand Egypt as a whole, one has to look at her last King Queen and what she did, as well as who she was. _________________With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.