Reverend Fred L. Shuttlesworth interview

(Tape 4, Side 7, 10/28/88)
ANDREW MANIS: Some people would say that that was autocratic,
dictatorship, brutal , within the church.
that?
How do you respond to
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I would r espond by saying that God is the
benevolent dictator. You don ' t have to vot e on whether o r not He
i s good. He's good without your vote . If you accept Him and you
give your will to Him you 're supposed t o go to his prayer meetings
and do it right. In the Baptist church , alth,ough the majority
rules, it is not a democ r acy , except we vote ??? the Lord. The
minister has t o?? Now , that' s been said to me a l o t o f times . If
any per son can ??
ANDREW MANIS:
authority?
Is there ever any time that a pastor abuses his
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Of course, people abuse . Nixon abused .
Presidents abu se . But you mus t remember that a preacher has to
pastor with the Lord and in the Spirit of the Lord . I don't think
out of anything that you have ever heard me say I was wrong in the
sense t hat I was destroying peopl e ' s reputations , destroying their
character o r taking from them any right that they had. You don ' t
have a right t o come in God ' s House and make it a den of thieves .
You don ' t have a right to come in a place where there is supposed
to be fe llowship and you make disrupti on . Even the white church i s
known for destroying fe llowship , brotherhood, and a ll that kind of
stuff. So, t o answer your question specifica lly , and I will make
it short , because I don 't think that there ' s a lot you can do. God
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wants a man . He had to have Moses as a man . There we r e some
things Moses had to do that nobody e l se could have done . Nobody
else would have seen what needed to be done . I think sometimes you
need to be autocratic. You want to be a wise servant , harml ess as
a dove and always be God ' s man. And there ain ' t no way you can be
God ' s man and not convi nce them of sin of the people in them and in
yourself and try to conduct yourself and try as best as possible.
You ' re the one that's supposed to be on the bal l , since you ' re
supposed to be the strong man, Jesus said. You shouldn't be down .
If you ' re the strong man you've got to hold out . You should die
fighting for the right .
ANDREW MANIS : What happens if there is a conflict of the
interpretation of scripture? I am speaking theoretically here.
But a situation in which a pastor has a particular viewpoint and
then a lay per son has a significantly conflicting viewpoint and
both are honestly convinced that they are right in light of the
Word of God? What happens in that case?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: In the f i rst p l ace , that's not a church
matter . If it becomes a church matter , but there are ways, first
of all the pastor and the layman ought to discuss it. And then
there could be a wider -- say if there is a doctor, who could
d i scuss it wi th his board and leadership. But nobody has a right
to get up and argue with the pastor because the pastor is assigned,
not that the people don ' t have some right to conflict, but God
Hi mself said in Ezekiel 3 :15 (incorrect reference) " I will give
them pastors after my own. " Being the pastor of a church is a
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thing that is c l ose to the heart of God. Not just somebody who
decided to vote for him because he is intellectual.
ANDREW MANIS: It still sounds like the pastor can never be wrong.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Well , it may sound like that. And you
have to go with the principle of the fact that the pastor ought to
be right and the president ought to be right. But there are times
when he gets some thing -- Reagan , Nixon -- they're men and not
God. I guess if I have anything that I can be proud of is that
thus far I have always been able t o where it came to leading in a
way where I could keep on leading . And of course l eading means
that you got to set some people aside, like at Revelation. I set
more people aside at Revelation than any church. And like I told
you, the very first church I had , I believe in disciplining a
church , not running people ' s lives. But I don ' t think that God can
ever use a man without a smile or without a heart -- those two
things , those things and discipline for a church as it says in the
fifth chapter of Corinthians. Many people are not sufficient.
Many preachers are not sufficient. I think in some of the white
churches , the minister would do better if he would preach the
scripture and then stand for it. And then let God -- but he l s not
supposed to be out runni ng from opposition . That ' s never Godls
way. Jesus didn I t run from the mob. He said "Rise and let's go ."
ANDREW MANIS: This i s real interesting .
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: 1 1m sure it is. God wouldn ' t deal with
Jeremiah in his mamma ' s belly unless he had a job for him. Before
I formed you in the womb I had a job for you. God lets you know if
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He has a job for you and He also prepares you for the battles. And
you look to God for continuously enforcing situations you got to
do. Therefore you don't need to hate. See I'm not even bitter
against the system. And I know its still wrong but I've made some
differences. Go ahead.
ANDREW MANIS: This is a hard question in one sense but you can
handle the hard questions.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: It never looks easy.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, its not a hard question. Its just the kind of
question it will take you a long time to answer.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I'll try to cut it short.
ANDREW MANIS: I don't necessarily want you to. But, here again,
I'm talking about before you became really active in civil rights.
Before that time, the first few years of pastoring at Bethel, could
you narrate for me a typical week in the life of Pastor
Shuttlesworth. In other words, if we could just go back in time,
and I had a T.V. camera and I followed you for a whole week from
Sunday morning to Sunday morning, except when you're asleep . But,
if I could just take that camera back and follow you for a week,
what would I see you doing if I did that over the course of a week.
Just start from Sunday morning when you get up and get ready for
church until the next Saturday night.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I would get up and I would probably
look over my notes. I would jot down the most important things I
would want to be sure not to miss saying to the congregation. I am
saying basically what I would do. I would get ready for Sunday
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School . I don't attend now as much as I used to. But I go over
sometimes . I would conduct the service. Here I let my son- in-law
do most of that. The main thing is his preaching because he is
capable. And then, after the service on a Sunday , if there was
very sick peopl e I would go see them. Sometimes I wouldn ' t. I
been there and I actuall y go out but sometimes in the afternoon I
would have churches come to us . Then on Sunday night at Bethel, we
had evening services, training union, etc . Monday , at that time I
did a lot of just visiting in people ' s homes , sometimes not for any
special reason but just for visiting. Even today, I must admit
that , and being as caught up in civil rights as I am , sometimes I
don ' t have the mind to be there. Where it was a pleasure, now I
have to bring myself to do it. Now if I know somebody has a
problem , I make it a point that I go see them, but then sometimes
something comes up and I don't . But that was a part inside the
working community and is the ultimate. And this is when I first
got to Bethel. Of course, after 1954 I began going out in the
community and doing more issues outside the church . But it was
a lways related to the church , whatever I do, because I don't think
I am supposed to do anything that isn't basicall y what the church
ought to be doing . And that includes working with people who are
not in churches. And really, the church is just now getting around
to that , without they have to work with people who are far more
relevant to issues than they are with what they pronounce in
scriptures. And then "be ye separate" didn ' t mean don't work with
people and live with them in the church. The church is just now
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beginning to understand that. You have to be concerned about the
things and people have little conception of God and if they would
use God in their actions -- you can't do God's work without that.
Then after the bombing, of course, I began issuing directions, that
was one time in Birmingham the newspapers didn't check with me to
see what I had up because, as I said, I tried to give my life in
Birmingham and I lived as the scripture says. And, of course, you
must remember that also since 1956, Christmas night, my house had
guards on up past the gate. The other thing, my last thing and
when I would program myself, after the bombing I was always on the
phone. My line was tapped. I could pick up the phone and hear the
police department downtown. And then sometimes I'd get a hundred
-- twenty-five of them would be kyke?? calls in the night. Some-times
it would just ring incessantly. I was the kind that never
did take it off the hook unless I would hang it up and it would
ring right back. Then I would. If I took it off, course I knew -­and
there was one time when my phone rang and I picked it up and
said "hello." In a second or two, somebody said "Hello, Fire
Department." Somebody said, "Hello, Police Department." "Hello,
Ambulance Service." Within ten minutes all of them met up at my
house. That happened from telephone calls. And so, it was no
problem with me to do this. It was just a pain in the life of
Shuttlesworth. Yet I took time if I had sick people -- people need
me in emergencies, people need this and that. Once in a while I
would go to court with them. I did this but it took a lot out of
me. It's a burnout. Except for faith and the grace of God, I
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would be a totally gutted wreck except that God is able to
interfere . I'm saying, and I do now the things that I really
I don ' t try to babysit now. You get to where after while you know
where they're going to go and what they are going to do. You know
it doesn't profit me to keep running to your house or to keep doing
things like that. So I try to live an example. I'm not trying to
build an example . I'm already an example.
ANDREW MANIS: Did people get mad with you if you negl ected to go
see them when they were sick? I know in white Baptist churches , if
the minister doesn 't come and somebody who is in the hospital, or
forgets, that usually means they're going to get in trouble with
these people.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and that's society ' s maybe
babysitting is a part of this ministry but not a part of your duty.
You shouldn't have to babysit people . They're already adults and
most of them have their own idea. It's a help to be able to go see
the sick but there ought to be someone in the church mi nistry -­because
most of the time they say "has the pastor been here?"
"No." They want to pick. I heard a black evangelist say "Tell ' em
he ain't been here but he ' s on his way." But now in this church
they accept it like if I didn't get to see them they wouldn ' t
bother the church. They 1 i ke me to do it. I went out here two
weeks ago and called a couple of my deacons to go out in the
community . Normally I don't send them, but I did that because they
aren 't doing anything as deacons. And I could let my assistant
make the rounds but nobody is ?? ?? ?? where the pastor is and so
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he has to always remember that.
me, they'll say "Well, pastor,
And right now, well, they'll tell
don't bother yourself." But if
somebody gets sick or loses a brother and it's three o'clock -- I
had to do this week before last. I went to the hospital, sit with
them, made sure the ambulance was called. I do that now. And
sometimes I'll be so -- they don't know it but, that's part of it.
So I still do my duty. But they'll tell me "Pastor, you don't have
to. "
ANDREW MANIS: Did you have scheduled times?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No, I have never worked with a time where
I am in my office and I go visit on Tuesday. I think that is more
for women than anything else. I think the pastor's time is his
members' time. And all of his time belongs to God. And I think
it's wrong for any minister to let a group to tell him "you got to
be in your office at quarter to five." I know people who do that.
But I've never done it.
like that.
Nobody ever dared to tell me something
ANDREW MANIS: Do your colleagues in the ministry tend to have
scheduled hours?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Many of them. And it's good to be on a
schedule. I'm not kicking that. But I'm saying to require that a
pastor is in his office from two to four or from ten 'til two is a
thing that mayor may not be.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you regularly or sporadically, at different
times, but with some regularity, do what persons would call
"evangelistic visits" to try to get people to get saved?
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REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I do evangelistic -- evangelism every time
I talk to somebody even when I had probl ems , but I never get an
application -- and I have some members of my church now. Most
folks change from? results . But I have a peace ?? ?? that came
through that process. And I tell people about it in church , if 11m
talking to a person about a problem , 1 1m evangelistic in that,
because I thine evangelism is not just coming to church but always
thinking about what Christ would do i n situations . rf rim talking
to somebody over the phone or if I am talking to somebody in person
I donlt just l et t hem tell me and I donlt give them what I think .
Some people especi al l y don l t listen to it then and I can onl y
testify. Youlre supposed to tell people whatls right. Not what
you say , or what you fee l , or what you interpret. So I live an
evangelistic li fe . Even now. And my members know that . Some of
them don I t talk to me but they say "I hope he comes by. " If I get
out there and start talking about other things they 'l l be talking
about me all the time. 11m supposed to talk about God.
ANDREW MANIS: You never had a kind of scheduled time where you
encouraged your church members to witness or to have evangelistic
visitation? I know white Baptist churches do this a lot.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH : They do it a lot . Yeah . They do it more
than black Bapti st c hurches . We do it periodically from time to
time. But I have a feeling that that's scheduling -- I don 't think
that and maybe we ought to do some things that become
ritualistic. But I think Christian folks ought to schedule
themsel ves to at all t i mes , insofar as possible , to think about how
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good God is to them, and therefore, witness. And what God has done
for them, therefore witness. And when I get in this business, even
in a business conference, you can tell I am a Christian, because
everything I say I try to relate to that. Now I'm not a fanatic.
I'm not one of these people you can't open the Bible without you
got to mention Jesus and this and that. But I'm saying you ought
to live in an atmosphere that Christ reigns in my life. And that's
what God wants more than sporadically. There ought to be times
like this, like revival time. Going out. But you ought to live an
evangelistic life to get folks to know you're somewhere in life.
That's my idea.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me shift gears and ask a different kind of
question. Who were your closest friends while you were the pastor
at Bethel? Other ministers?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: The ministers, as I began to tell you
about, we were very close. F. L., C. L., L. J. Rogers, C. L.
Murdock, not because we had ?? but we could communicate and you
must remember that when I got into this civic thing, they would be
in it with me. That was good fellowship. That was some of the
closest ministerial fellowship which was most endearing. There are
some names in this city now who -- some in 7lst -- I have been
knowing since 1948 when I was pastoring Everdale. I had a problem
out there and I had him once to go visit a couple people.
friendship followed through because even in Bethel I was
That
when
I got to when I got into civil rights it was ?? around. Reverend
Lane would drive me a lot when nobody else would. Therefore we
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became very close. We play checkers a lot and I'd beat him a lot.
I went over to see him and when he was running the board it wasn't
as much fun then.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you socialize, you and your wife, with Reverend
Lane and others and their wives as couples?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No. No, we never did do that. We might
go visit somebody once in a while. I never had a friend that I and
my wife would go to their house. We couldn't find that. I have
been a friendly type person but I never done a lot of visiting just
for the friendship.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you have similar kinds of quality friendships
with members of your church or is there automatically a social kind
of distance between a black pastor and his congregation?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: There are black pastors who drink, and do
everything, have a lot of association with his people. I was in
Detroit and I was speaking to this pastor in his office and he had
some liquor on the table. Liquor is not thought about as much as
it used to be . He was pouring liquor. I didn't even drink. And
today if I was to drink, I don't drink with any of my members.
See, I think there has to be a distinction between them. And yet
I go and have more fun and laugh loud and holler with anybody. I
can socialize, but I think there has to be a line beyond which I
don ' t go.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you feel like you have really close
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Some members closer to me?
ANDREW MANIS: Yes.
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REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Just like Peter, James and John went
further with Jesus but yet they were all the same. Some people
just go further with you than others . I ' ll put it like that. I
think I have the understanding with my members that I'd like to
have friendship , but if I don ' t have it I go on. If I got to tell
the truth my yea is yea and my nay is nay and after that it is hell
nay . And when I took over Revelation I said to them nobody has
anything I just have to have. I I d like to have your love and
respect. Nothing on your table , your pocket , or even your trust
but I must have Jesus and I must -- so this is called "keeps it"
and yet nobody cares almost or befriended as many as I did because
I love them. They know I ' m a regular fellow. They also know that
I 'm the pastor . So I guess what I 'm saying is that I never get
tied up with anybody so that friendship can be thrown at us or that
I cannot say to him that I love him. Many pastors can't but I can.
You may know some who can't.
ANDREW MANIS: Well , you have different kinds . Some are not
comfortable forming close relationships.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: But I love them. In fact, I would be a
very lonely person if I couldn't relate to them. And I have the
advantage here of living upstairs. Sometimes they die and I don't
even come down . But I can always talk to the family. So that's one
advantage I have . If I lived away from this church I might be kind
of a lonely person. Might meet with people where they were.
ANDREW MANIS: Moving to sort of lending of your pastoral ministry
and civil rights ministry, to what degree did the members support
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your activities in c i v i l r i ghts?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Not even ninety- nine and a half.
ANDREW MANIS: When you say that , or when I say that, in terms of
support .
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I don 't mean they all did the marching.
Many of them did not march but they didn't challenge or contradict
anything that I said or did.
ANDREW MANIS: What percentage would you say ..
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: You talkin ' about Bethel?
ANDREW MANIS: Yeah, what percentage would you say came to the mass
meetings regularly or even once a month?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: As I recall I had 200. Even when we
first started out , they were with me in the drive , because they
recognized there was a need. In the civil rights you put the
church in danger. I always had many come. Now in the march that
was different . But you must remember that, had it not been for
Bethel as a group, the Movement might never have gotten as
successful as it did because it wasn 't a spontaneous thing with
blacks . (Bus rides??) They had to be challenged . I challenged
and I kept challenging . This thing was being attacked and I was
trying to kill segregati on . But they supported and joined the
guard. ???? be glad when you see the face of the only one Son of
God. There were no problems.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you know of actual members of Bethel who were
among the fourteen who were arrested i n October of '58?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Some of Bethel ' s -- this was the second
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ride.
ANDREW MANIS: Or March '63?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. A lot of them. Quite a few of
my members were actually in the demonstrations.
ANDREW MANIS: Younger members?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Young and others.
ANDREW MANIS: High school?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Mostly high school . I remember once they
were breaking ?? coming across the ?? in several areas. The ones
that got beat, they got beat each day.
ANDREW MANIS: I had a conversation with a cousin of yours, Julia
Rainge. She suggested without giving many details that there were
some people in the church who were not supportive. I don't know if
she meant generally , to your pastoral leadership, or not supportive
of civil rights.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: They wouldn I t march unless they get
caught in situations where that -- and Julia would know more about
them and talk on certain levels than talking on the pastor level,
but nobody questioned my authority. That was one advantage I had.
Nobody questioned my right. In fact they wanted me to challenge
Bull Connor. Bull Connor challenge us a lot and they felt a great
relief when I could answer him. That's the only way he'd show up.
So that I would think that anybody who might have been, let us say
hand tied, might have been more passive than open . I have never
been anywhere where anybody opposed my work and challenged me,
except Reuben Davis. But I'm talking about in civil rights. Of
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course you remember I've pastored Bethel for eight years -- well ,
eight years and e i ght months. When I was called in February, or
March , I can ' t remember -- my anniversary in Birmi ngham was a l ways
in March . So I was called to this church up here before
anni ver sary time at Bethel . I wasn ' t l ooking to come to Revelation
then. And I didn 't see how the Lord had sixteen lawsuits and my
love for them was to be wi th them. Money had not ever been the real
thing and it is not now. You can see that because I give away more
than I get. Much of the speaking I did the two years, many years ,
after I was gone was from -- well, I lost my line of thinking .
ANDREW MANIS: You wee moving toward talking about Reuben Davis.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. But insofar as anybody not
supportive , i t just wasn ' t that -- when I was called to Revelation,
I had two problems . One , I was tryi ng to see how God wanted me to
come up here when I was so deeply involved in Birmingham and my
l ove for Birmingham. I spoke about the problem I had in my
domestic life. My wi fe and I got to where we were not close. We
were not close and it is a thing that I did not want to get in any
situation. I'd had problems in Selma and now in Birmingham. Not
sexual. Not like that . And my wife and I never argued. That may
sound strange but it's the truth. I had to think about was it
really the Lord? I was so involved. And I really wanted to stay .
So when they called me up here these people were in the beginning
stages of tearing integration apart. And they always work and so
Reuben's father remained subdued. He never quit serving Satan . It
takes the grace of God. But I have to have respect. In my
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membership I have to have respect. I better say this. If I have
someone I make sure it is through memorandums that I write so that
I don 't have to argue first. It gets in the horse I s mouth and
things like that. That ' s one way I don 't have to argue . So Reuben
decided , 11m not sure how h i s father was , but his father never ??
?? at that time. So when the church told him and I fina lly decided
t hat I was going to l eave , I still waited on the Lord. It was
interesting to see how that came out. The church voted three
months. That's about al l to be paid. Now I accepted that . I told
them I would. They voted unanimously for three months.
ANDREW MANIS: Are you talking about Bethel?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Bethel. Yeah. Three months. I could be
gone once a month or two if I wanted to and never any problems.
And so it must have been about the end of Mayor the first of June,
or it might have been July I went back to Birmingham to ge t an
announcement to t he peopl e . Reuben Davis said "I understand you
are past oring two churches . You I re just allowed to have one . II He
used t o talk t oo much and he was a smart aleck . If he would listen
instead of talk, he has a hard way of saying things . What he said
might have been doctrinal but you just don 't say it like that. He
wanted me to answer him. I said "no , I won 't g i ve you the answer ,
it is up to the church to decide." So, his father and mother tried
to tel l him, "Sit down, son, you 're wrong. " But he wouldn't sit
down . He was gonna stand up . He wasnlt gonna sit down. Reuben.
And so she was comi ng out of the second or third seat to try to get
him and move him over . But he was trying t o get her back to her
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seat and slung her down. He was belligerent. He was going to do
see what I mean. So, people thought it was ridiculous. Course
if I were going to stay at the church I would have turned him over
to my church. I said, "Reuben , you're not going to sit down?" So,
finally, o t her folks got him back in his seat. But Reuben still
stood up . I sai d, "Reuben, you aren 't gonna sit down so I can go
ahead and preach?" "No, I'm gonna stand up! " I said, "All right
then, stand up . " See, I wouldn 't have tolerated that, had I
planned to stay at the church . He have to stop then. But there
would have been no use to put him out, although it was against my
nature to have allowed him to do that. So I went on and preached as
if he wasn 't standing there . So we sat down and got at the altar
and everything else. Something said to me and I'll l eave it like
this and so I said , "Now Reuben , you've been standing up all the
time I've been preaching . Do you think you've won your point?" I
said , "Now I have never felt as though I wanted to shake the ground
when I was pastor and doing what I know is right ." I sai d, "Do you
think the church woul d agree with you . Now you stood up and you
have sort of disgraced yourself. " I said , "I don't have any
problems , do you want the church to vote on whether I go today? "
He said , "Yeah, that would be fine." I said, "Well, I think
they're gonna vote what they said . Do you want to try it? " "Yeah,
yeah." I said,"are you gonna vote too?" "Yeah , Yeah." I sai d ,
"All right, all of those persons -- and I said in the beginning 'i f
the church votes with you , I ' ll go today_ '" They voted to sustain
me until I got a replacement to stay there. So, I said, "All
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right, all of those in the church ," I said , "now I don't want you
to just vote for me , I want you to vote your principles , but now if
you really fee l like you want me to go today in spite of all I've
done and everything else , say it. I won't feel bad. I've done my
work. If you really feel like you want me to go. Now all those
persons who want to vote to sustain me for three months until
August -- now we're votin' if I stay til August or if you want me
to go today. All those who want me to stay unti l August, stand
up." Everybody stood up . I said "All right , all those who want me
to go today, you stand up. " Reuben didn ' t even stand up . That's
it . So I never took anything . In fact , Reuben was determined
about my going away. I told you that . So there ' s no lie about it.
So I was strong there . I coul d have stayed at Bethel then . No
problem. But I knew that the Lord wanted me to come up here and I
went with his blessings.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me shift gears again back to something that we
have talked about before . (NOTE: Question lost in tape turnover.)
* * *
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Supreme Court outl awed segregation. I
think that's the head of it. I fe l t like, since I'm the man who
inspired it all was I as good as anybody else. I felt that God was
moving in human history and using this court to say that this was
wrong. Of course nobody thought it would be as hard to fight the
battles that remained. That's how it was then and i f I coul d have
done something to stop segregation without seeing that I would
have. And I've been fighting now, this i s my 35th or 36th year - -
18
somewhere in there. And I still would have no hesitation if it
took my life to make life better for somebody else . But God has
his own schedule . He has his own ways . I ' ll go back to say again
that Martin Luther King gave the ultimate price that I was prepared
to pay. And I think some others were. Only God takes whom he will
and does what he will. I ' ve been happy just being used by him to
be in the Movement for what I did. Because I know, had it not been
for Birmingham, we wouldn 't be where we are . Kennedy said that
when he went to the White House. So it never bothered me that I
was not the "greatest person in Birmingham." That didn't have
nothin ' to do with it. My neck is just as important as my head and
my hands and my throat. So I felt this way about it but I'm saying
that God was doing humanistic -- in fact I called this whole c i vil
rights struggle a divine struggle for the purification of the human
race . I still think that. And , of course, after that , there was
no question that Blacks would be striving. It was in ' 55. Now you
must remember that I told you when I was coming on and working
wi th people , so that in ' 55 , when I addressed the emanc ipation
program , proclamation program at Sixteenth Street Church with
?? it was the biggest civil rights or human rights program
the blacks had and from that, they asked me to serve as membership
chairman. That's how I got in the position when the state outlawed
the NAACP , everybody focused their questions to me. What can we
do? What shall we do? We can't do nothin'! Yeah, we got to do
something! And that finally was drummed into my conscience that
we must do something. So that in the evolutionary process the
19
Supreme Court decision was a watershed thing in addition to what
had been done before . Then the Montgomery situation , now you must
remember, though, that before, well , yeah, the Montgomery
situation, where·in the blacks rose up in mass, although all of them
wasn't ridin' the buses , there wasn 't but a few to ride the bus, we
cooperated. That first night it was set up I was there.
ANDREW MANIS: How did you happen to be there?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I had met Martin Luther King before
that. I think I met King in ' 54, somewhere in Birmingham , along
about the same time I met Jim Benboski?? They were in for a
meeting and Martin had come. I forget exactly how the first
meeting went. He might remember that. But I was there at the
meeting giving support. When?? Lucy was put into the University
of Alabama in Selma I was there. And so I've been in everything.
I was inspired to dangerous situations. Had no dispelling notions.
I was in it. I tried to get into it. It wasn't a matter of just
trying to get put in this because you don't get put in things to
get killed or get beat up. Back then the press wasn 't as focused
on us. Since Montgomery we've gotten more focus , you understand,
from the press. But between ' 55 and ' 57 when I marched, was mobbed
twice, got bombed twice and everything else, and yet I kept on and
everything that I got in to whetted my appetite for doing something
else to do away with segregation and embarrass the system and
challenge the system from within, without violence all the time.
So that's how I got involved. You must remember, I think I should
tell you this , when we started to organize SCLC and without the
20
Birmingham Movement, SCLC would never have succeeded even before we
got to Birmingham, because the Alabama Christian Movement was its
strongest affiliate. Martin said that and it was right. That was
on my thoughts.
ANDREW MANIS: That Alabama Christian Movement was the strongest
affiliate?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and so Dr. King?? had a movement
of somewhat lesser friction in Mobile. Mobile was a little better
climate. ? had a ? in Tuskeegee. Jemison had a bus protest
and there wasnlt too much else and, of course, my value was that
I challenged Bull Connor and continued to challenge.
ANDREW MANIS: Before you get on into civil rights, I want to bring
us back to this pastoral thing where this touches on that. Because
I know that you could go on forever about specific involvement in
civil rights and at some point I want to do that but in an earlier
interview that live read, you mentioned, you were talking about the
churches response or feelings and you mentioned it earlier int his
interview of how they responded after the first bombing. As I
recall in the other interview you mentioned talking about in that
sermon on the next Sunday "the social implications of the Gospel"
-- that's probably a term or a phrase that you use a lot, what did
you mean by that back then?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: After the bombing?
ANDREW MANIS: Yeah. What did you mean when you were talking about
"the social implications of the Gospel?"
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: That religion ought not to just be inside
21
a church for -- it ought to challenge. It ought to have the same
trust as John the Baptist had when he went to tell Herod to go home
to see your brother's wife. And when (he) lied and went to Jezebel
and said you've taken this thing and violated man's civil rights.
But you won't have it and you're so personable that dogs will lick
your blood. Or Elijah when he challenged the 450 prophets. Its
both/and. It has to deal with your prayer life or your living life
if somebody tries to do it and it also has to deal with how you
live, whether you live under pressure, whether or not somebody's
challenging you. Because it was never God's will in my estimation,
though he permitted it, for a pressure to be ?? ?? and therefore
that's what I was talking about. And as you get in trouble, I
always remember a statement that Dr. Boris said, he said "the book
of action is an action book." He said that the Gospel will get you
in trouble but God will get you out. That's a true statement. And
if you are stirring up something or if you are preaching the gospel
wi thout its social implications, not running into somebody's
feelings, not making enemies, or not overcoming enemies, then its
not the gospel.
ANDREW MANIS, White Baptist preachers of your generation during
those years, they tended not to apply the Gospel. White Southern
religion tended to view the Gospel solely in terms of getting
people saved and ready for heaven.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Saved for what? That's, you know, it's
easy for me. Saved? For what? ?? For what? Except your
goodness or your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the
22
Scribes and the Pharisees, you shall in no wise be saved. You
might always be being saved and never yet saved. Put in a good
purpose, I'll tell you a good cause. It may well be that that word
"lostness" has great relevance for many people in our generation
and in generations past. Because I have never understood the white
minister who said to me "I don't speak for my people. II
"Well, who do you speak for?" "I don't speak for God."
I said
I said,
"Well, then who?" "r'm just speaking for myself." I said "Well,
yourself is a very little particle in this wide province of space,
and if you aren't speaking for God and you aren't speaking for your
people, who in the hell are you speaking for?" And I think that's
a problem. Now, of course, we've got to go back and understand the
background. First of all, many of the preachers and the church
usually lets social standards be set before the church ?? and that
was a difference in the early church and, of course, they expected
a quick return of Jesus. Of course, understand, they want to get
everything right. So they're mind challenging, etc. Maybe we
expect Jesus is going to delay his coming so we can delay doing
something. It could well be that. But God knows it all and some
day he'll make it plain. But I believe that we ought to live every
moment as I said to you before, as if that moment is the last
moment you have to do something or bring something to pass and
every man ought to leave this place a little better than he found
it. As I told you before, I don't have problems with people who
look up on me, even my church doesn't dictate about this and that.
So as long as I get the dictation in the name of God for Christ's
23
sake and watch myself and be sure that I'm not being a coward, I
never tire of doing what I do. I never do believe that God uses
spineless preachers. Or spineless persons. I think he wants us to
serve even if we can't do nothin' else about it. And the prophet
talked about priests becoming dumb dogs that couldn't bark. A dog
that won't bark is worse than anything else.
ANDREW MANIS: In the early or late 19th century and early 20th
century, there was this movement called the social gospel in the
North. Southern white preachers and theologians tended not to pay
much attention to it early in the 20th century. Persons like the
Baptist preacher Raushenbusch that Dr. King eludes to occasionally,
did any of that have any impact on you?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No.
ANDREW MANIS: Have you ever read any of those?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No.
ANDREW MANIS: So, when you say "social implications of the Gospel"
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I interpret Jesus's life. I don't have to
ask somebody over yonder or some great man here because any great
man, however great he was, is not the present man Jesus Christ who
is the example for our generation and all generations. And I think
all of us can say some good things about somebody or we may in a
certain age say something that the age becomes named after us but
only Christ will last and only what you do for Christ will last.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think there is a particularly black
perspective that influenced you? I mean, is this just sort of your
natural way of approaching the scriptures and the gospel?
24
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: It would be my natural way whether I was
white or black. And I say that with some qualifications because if
I was a white preacher and had a white congregation that was not up
to this as my people accept me, I don't know whether God would want
me to remain there and try to get them up as far as I can or be
disgusted because they won't get up and go. God had to make me
black for a purpose. And so, 11m enjoying my blackness in that
way. I don't think religion is either black or white. I don It
think goodness is black or white. I don't think righteousness is
black or white. I don't think civil rights is black or white. We
just have neglected that because our country came up under slave ??
and lost herself. So it takes a long time. Once you build a house
on it you almost have to destroy it to make it right. So I
understand that perspective, too, and I understand that it is
easier and I used to say this, for white man in the South to
confess his sin. He admits they're wrong and he would smile like
he means it and has been held in awe by changing things. And
that I S delayed so long. And then there were white people Dr.
Martin Luther King talked about being liberal. Some of them are
for my rights until I go to get my rights. You have to be prepared
to be white or black, say your piece, and stay where you are and be
identified where you are on this road of life.
feel about it.
That's the way I
ANDREW MANIS: Did your Sunday morning preaching sermons, did they
change in any significant way after June of 1956? After the
founding of the Alabama Christian Movement?
25
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I have been always as zealous about
preaching as I am now. If I have ???? because of the
more pressure you're under , the more you do. I had always preached
what I thought was relevant and good . It came a time when we got
into the season, the money and the atmosphere where civil r i ghts
were the thing to fight for and so I could relate to that and say
all I could about the gospel then just like I do now. Naturally ,
I I m older now and I know some things. I know some things are
relevant that I might not have thought of when I was 25. So that
a man ought to grow, I think civil rights is a part of what God
always intended for the gospel "Let my people go " is the basis of
the gospel. That tells me God has always been on our side. God
has allowed it that men have had to fight in all generations. Our
generation is just ours. That song "to serve this ?? is my calling
to fulfill" I'm supposed to be doing what I think in my
generation .
ANDREW MANIS: In other settings , you ' ve mentioned other ministers
and black ministers in the South , and in Birmingham, who didn ' t
support the Movement. Why were they different from you? Why were
you different from them in that regard?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH : None, except that you can have two men
standing side by side, one will look up and see the sky and one of
them will look down and see the mud. And in this particular
inspiration, one takes the calling and election of God and his
purpose being carried out to bring you around to see what you ' re
supposed to see and let you overlook something at this time in
26
history.
ANDREW MANIS: What made them so cautious about speaking out?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Could be fear. You must remember that it
was dangerous. My home was blown up. People were getting killed.
That's a real thing. We don't yet know how love conquers fear.
Many people don't and I guess I must say that God updates his
power. I am sure he did in my life. There's no other way I could
have explained how I came through a corner of that house being
blown off without getting a scratch? That was God.
ANDREW MANIS: Those experiences, you mentioned the train
experience yesterday, experience that when you were awakened in the
middle of the night regarding the founding of the Alabama Christian
Movement? Tell me about that experience. I know there was a sense
of turmoil after the NAACP was outlawed.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Frustration, disgust, hopelessness and a
sense of helplessness. And no black power. So you can't be
anything ever but powerless. Any preacher who preaches the gospel
may be saying the truth when he says trouble don't last always.
That's a truism. And when you are enjoined, hate was set up and I
knew that they were trying to kill hope. Faith, hope, truth and
love last forever. I wasn't looking at it in no philosophical
terms. It was just for me. For me that God had brought through in
that experience on the train. It was for me that God brought me
through that bomb blast. See what I mean? And so, I'm sorry, I
hadn't gone through the bomb blast then. But it was the trust and
the things in my own life far from just beyond a vagabond how God
27
had made everything work out . So I was prepared for God to put
wider dimensions , deeper dimensi ons to use and I was in t he place .
It had to be the place , the man , the hour , the time, God , and the
idea. So the consci ousness -- I mu s t have had - - if I didn ' t have
50 to 100 peopl e call me between that Tuesday when we were enjoined
I believe i t was and between May 26 -- no , it had to be more than
t hat , because June 5 , the Movement started June 5 , the 26th was the
injuncti on and that ' s what that week and a ha l f - - so one weekend
had to pass , because J une 5 as I recall , was on Tuesday , so it
might have been two weeks. That would be about right woul dn ' t i t?
So , from the time that that h i t the press, I had over a week when
people were just call ing me and then we had clandestine meet ing
over t he NAACP group. They were frustrated. They d i dn ' t know what
to do . And even Arthur Shores said , I said to him, "No, we ' ve got
to do something. " He said, "Well , anything we do is going to be
aga i nst this ." We sent Aroba?? who was feisty and she talked
tough . She was the onl y school teacher identified in the Movement .
Always had her . She said "we ' ve got to do something . " I said
"Something will be done ." She would say , "We ll , as a lawyer , I ' l l
have to c hange i t and we have to be careful about it ." I said ,
"Well , it won't be a thi ng for ever that we do nothin ' ." So I
dropped the hint then that I might cal l a mass meeting. He said
"That might be in contempt ."
me . I knew that we had to.
But that didn't have any effect on
This was right after the thing
happened . And these people kept on saying "Can we do this , can we
do that, what can we do?" I was never one who coul d say "Nothing ."
28
I went to sleep. This was a Saturday morning about the 4th of
June. Even all the civic leaders were meeting?? And I had
indicated that I had to do something myself. When I went to bed
that night I didn't have any more idea other than something general
and when I woke up that morning, I guess it must have been around
3:30 or 4:00, I thought "What can we do?" I realized it was the
Lord and something seemed to have -- my whole self was involved in
this understanding "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set
you free." There was no voice there. It was in my system and my
conscience. I laid back down and tried to go to sleep. I
couldn't. I sat up again and that morning when I -- I must have
gone to sleep some time. I told my wife, "You know, it I S a strange
thing, I just feel like we got to do something." She didn't make
too much comment on it. Ruby didn't -- whenever I felt like I had
to do this thing, that's one thing she knew I had to do it.
ANDREW MANIS: Would you compare that experience to the train
experience?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, in the sense of knowing that God was
moving me. In the other sense, knowing that God heard me and would
meet my needs and course I realized that, and by the time that
train -- I had solved the Selma problem. I didn't care what
happened. I hadn't talked to anybody. In fact, I got to where I
was almost shaken at the bits for somebody to say something to me
and I could overcome it.
ANDREW MANIS: I am really interested in this religious experience
kind of discussion here. live also heard you talk about a couple
29
of different settings where you felt God was speaking to you
directly and you felt that with certainty. In addition to the
train experience and in addition to this experience of the night,
deciding to call a mass meeting. The other two places, and there
may be more and you can tell me , but the other two places that I
have seen both in writing and in interviews that I have seen of
yours were in the bombing and when you were being beaten.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Although I didn't hear a voice, I
understood, I knew that God was there. I knew I wasn't going to
get hurt. Now, if I were preaching it I would add to that and say
"God says , not now." You understand? But that whole situation,
and I illustrated it another time. You can note something in a
second that you have never read in a book nor ever read. You can
feel something in a second that will deal with you the rest of your
life. But that bombing took away all fear. And then the other
time would be when I was slammed against the wall with a fire hose.
I did tell the Lord when I saw that thing I didn't turn my face
away nor did I put my hand up in front of my face. lim sure my
face was in disfigurement and that water was spraying me and I said
to the Lord "live been coming this way for a long time. This is
it. I'm ready when you are." And it looked like he said "Not yet.
Not yet."
ANDREW MANIS: Before the fire hose , the Phillips High School
beating, there was a point in that where you felt God ' s presence.
Can you talk about that?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: well, in that situation, I know that God
30
had to be there. Because they were saying everything. They really
let it be known that they intended to kill me. When I was falling
down, any time they would strike, you could almost like see a star
like when you would close your eyes and I knew that after I had
taken so many blows, that I couldn't stand it so I straggled back
toward the car. And I said almost like standing against the wall
"this is it." But I'm not sure whether I was, I want to be
honest, some people make up things, but I don't. I try not. I had
the sense of God's presence and God's healing power. Anyone of
those experiences could have knocked me out and I am sure that in
my consciousness I could understand that God was saying "I am with
thee to deliver." But I wasn't taking so much time dealing even
with that. I had the consciousness that I had to get back to the
car but they had carried me away from the car, at least four men
that I could see. So I stumbled back to the car hazy. And one
man, I guess he was trying to set himself to come down and crash on
my head with that chain. I couldn't struggle. I just ran into
him. When I say "ran" I don't mean I ran into him. I mean I just
stumbled and I might not have done anything but fall at his feet
but my momentum carried me on to the car where they could help pull
me in. When I was getting in the car one man got mad at me and
kicked me in the side as I was getting in the car.
ANDREW MANIS: I don't want to put words in your mouth but actually
if I did I would be putting your own words in your mouth because,
as I've read a couple of other interviews that you've done some
years ago, you talked about having a sense, in the midst, right
31
before you stumbled into this man on your way to the car and in
other interviews you said something to the effect of having a sense
of God saying to you "You canlt die here, live got more work for
you to do. II
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: That is true. He said "live got more for
you to do. II
ANDREW MANIS: So this was, again, not audible voices?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I had a sense of him saying it. I think
I had the sense, I don't whether it was as audible as when I was
slammed against the wall. That's what consumed me. That is not
incorrect, what you're saying.
ANDREW MANIS: So, looking back, because I'm really interested in
how these religious experiences, if you would call them that, and
it sounds like that's what you would call them, how these religious
experiences, like the train experience, the night before deciding
to found the Alabama Christian Movement, the bomb, the Phillips
High incident and then the fire hose incident. There seems to be
a thread running through them in common in that you came out of
these with a deeper certainty.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: With more determination than ever. Yeah.
Even when I went, I think the county got the car and put it away.
I don't know whether the door was shut then or not. You have to
look at the film. But I remember when we went to the hospital
folks were walking by and I was laying up there like a skinned pig.
I think I told you there were two nurses there. I was calm. I
don't even think my blood pressure was up. It might have been.
32
But I was calm and the one who was trying to say something
provocative didn't bother me at all. The other one was trying to
sound good to me and she said to this girl "you wouldn't
understand." And I said to her "She's right, you wouldn't
understand. " "Hell, I wouldn't let nobody do this to me. It ain't
worth my doin' all this." It was when the doctor came in
eventually and he was very apologetic and he told me he would have
to do a lot of x-rays. I said, "Do what you have to do. I've done
what I had to do." Then he said, after he heard me quite a bit, he
said "I don't see how you've taken all these blows with no
contusions. You're calm and everything. But I would like to
observe you because sometimes people don't show everything. II I
said, "Well, if you order me into the hospital I'll have to go but
I won't go unless you have two policemen on the outside and one on
the inside. I could go home and die among my friends." He wanted
to observe my head? I told him, "the Lord knew I'd have a hard
time so he gave me a hard head." That's how you explain the thing.
What else? That gives God the glory. And I try whenever I speak,
however much it looks like I'm doing it, I really try to give
deference to God. That is the way Paul did it -- God through me.
And that's what God wants us to do.
ANDREW MANIS: Did these experiences, when you've keenly felt God's
presence,
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Let's just say I especially felt God's
presence. That isn't the only time I felt it. Go ahead.
ANDREW MANIS: Did those experiences make you more certain when it
33
came to confronting the powers that were?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: More certain and more eager .
ANDREW MANIS: Would that be the case both in confronting powers
both among people like Bull Connor on the one hand or , if you had
a difference with Dr. King, or a difference with someone in your
church, would those experiences have
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: It's one in all the same thing to me. I
see evil as evil whether the righteous man does it or not. And I
see where man compromises with his deepest princi ples as evil . And
I think I said to you I understand all the pressure that was on
Martin Luther King. Most people couldn ' t understand them -- you
got to be in some situations -- and I never thought he was any less
present because he didn 't, but I think with the president of the
United States, with Robert Kennedy, with Burt Marshall and Fred??
with his wavering voice , convincing Martin that he has done all he
could and just this little here and they have assured me I'm sure
(I don 't know whether these were the exact words) what they would
do if we would just "call it off." Well, as groggy as I was and as
angry as I was that they didn't come to see about it and I didn't
let that be the mai n thing. I had the instantaneous perception
that if the public? could ever think you didn ' t get a victory, you
were dead. I had that understanding. And I don't play God but I
wouldn't doubt that if there had been something else written
ascertaining that they would do so and so that it would had to have
been written. You understand? If they had given back Marshall and
let's speculate. Because we all do that to be honest. If they had
34
given Burt Marshall a written
legitimate gripes, blah, blah,
thing that recognize, you know,
blah, this and that , and if the
demonstrating had been called off by "X" time and "X" -- it would
have to be a week. You know, no two or three weeks to get the
thing done, I would never agree to that. I'm talking about
conditions if we might have agreed? Do you understand? But it
had to be written because I knew they'd lie. The l ied to us
before. I had King's definite agreement before he came in that we
know the courts -- that we are going on and that I had his backing.
Seven years behind me and these people never lie to me and that
they had done it on my word so you see what a predicament I was in
and I didn't try to find a way out. And I said "no, no , no , hell
no, a thousand times no? " Can you know? Burt Mar . . and Burt
was one of the first ones to concede that there was no way. King
was down a t the ?? after I talked with Ralph, got on his knees and
came to me. I don't know whether you heard that. Down on his
knees. "Now Fred, you ?? Now, Fred, you and I can talk to him and
I 'll get on my knees." You can get on your damn belly. It won ' t
make any difference . Get up. You can get on your knees or your
belly . We are not calling it off. And that's when the time came
when they said "Well, what about the press conference?" I didn't
know nothin ' 'bout no press conference . I said, "Oh , you got a
press conference !" Somebody said "Yeah, the press is gonna
announce it in Washington." I said, "Oh , you got this down -­well
, why did you call me? Why in the hell did you call me if you
guys set up -- go ahead and do it but I 'll tell you what . You are
35
gonna be Mr. Shit. Go ahead and call it off. I'm gonna go ahead
and get back in my sick bed. And when I see it on T.V. that you've
called it off. What little strength I've got. Get up and stagger
over here and meet them 3,000 kids in the streets and you'll be
dead." Then Martin said -- I said "I'm gonna •.. " --see, I tried
to get up and -- I wasn't conscious all that week. And fell back
down and then I'm glad my wife -- I said "I'm goin' back home."
Martin said, "Wait a minute, Fred, wait, we've got to have unity."
I said, "You damn shot have." I think that was God, too, just as
much as it was over here against the wall. I think that was God.
Because if God had permitted me to say "yes" the victory that -- we
can claim the victory, can't we, because we had to do it and then
they had sense enough to recognize that they better let me read the
agreement. I was still hazy the next day when we did it. But when
Burt went back and Burt said well, I said to Burt "any
agreement. " Burt said "but I have made a promises to these
people." That's all he said and he wasn't saying it directly to
me. I said "Burt, any agreement that you make that I did not agree
to is not any good. I don't have anything else to say about it.
I'm gone." I got up and went out. And we did not call it off. If
the white crowd had ever been able to say we called it off without
a victory we would not have had one. So God knew uses people for
certain purposes. And the goodness of men come very close many
times to making a fatal mistake. But I think it was God in it.
Now I was saying some hot language because I was hot. Had two or
three reasons to be. One, had I been in the movement with you,
36
and I'm not sure whether it would break Marshall ... -- Martin and
Ralph had a knack for just messin' around but I would have sho' nuf
made it ? We would have been thrilled? with the Movement. And
I would have felt better. You know, I'm not maybe God had, you
see, when you talk about God , don 't never count God short . And
never think you see all about God. I would suspect I would have
been much better off had they come to see me that night. But see,
what they thought was, and I'm sure, as I look at this thing -- and
I ain ' t give it much thought. I didn't think no more about it.
I'm sure that they knew that my word would have been "no" even i f
they had come , so they'd rather stay away, but to have a press
conference -- to have the president of the United States. (Laughs.)
What could you say but no -- but yes? And I think I told you about
Golden or whoever it was, had -- Bobby Kennedy called. Evidently
he asked how it was going and everything. I heard him say "hit a
snag. " He said, "the frail one." I said , "I presume you're
talking to the president or his brother? And I 'm the frail one.
Tell him I ain't that frail. " So , you see, God won 't let you be
too frail when you need to be strong .
ANDREW MANIS: So would you say that those experiences
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Not only solidify the way I was but made
me stronger for future endeavors.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I've got a hundred other questions to ask , but
I think it's time for us to stop. We'll pick up later.
37

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

(Tape 4, Side 7, 10/28/88)
ANDREW MANIS: Some people would say that that was autocratic,
dictatorship, brutal , within the church.
that?
How do you respond to
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I would r espond by saying that God is the
benevolent dictator. You don ' t have to vot e on whether o r not He
i s good. He's good without your vote . If you accept Him and you
give your will to Him you 're supposed t o go to his prayer meetings
and do it right. In the Baptist church , alth,ough the majority
rules, it is not a democ r acy , except we vote ??? the Lord. The
minister has t o?? Now , that' s been said to me a l o t o f times . If
any per son can ??
ANDREW MANIS:
authority?
Is there ever any time that a pastor abuses his
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Of course, people abuse . Nixon abused .
Presidents abu se . But you mus t remember that a preacher has to
pastor with the Lord and in the Spirit of the Lord . I don't think
out of anything that you have ever heard me say I was wrong in the
sense t hat I was destroying peopl e ' s reputations , destroying their
character o r taking from them any right that they had. You don ' t
have a right t o come in God ' s House and make it a den of thieves .
You don ' t have a right to come in a place where there is supposed
to be fe llowship and you make disrupti on . Even the white church i s
known for destroying fe llowship , brotherhood, and a ll that kind of
stuff. So, t o answer your question specifica lly , and I will make
it short , because I don 't think that there ' s a lot you can do. God
1
wants a man . He had to have Moses as a man . There we r e some
things Moses had to do that nobody e l se could have done . Nobody
else would have seen what needed to be done . I think sometimes you
need to be autocratic. You want to be a wise servant , harml ess as
a dove and always be God ' s man. And there ain ' t no way you can be
God ' s man and not convi nce them of sin of the people in them and in
yourself and try to conduct yourself and try as best as possible.
You ' re the one that's supposed to be on the bal l , since you ' re
supposed to be the strong man, Jesus said. You shouldn't be down .
If you ' re the strong man you've got to hold out . You should die
fighting for the right .
ANDREW MANIS : What happens if there is a conflict of the
interpretation of scripture? I am speaking theoretically here.
But a situation in which a pastor has a particular viewpoint and
then a lay per son has a significantly conflicting viewpoint and
both are honestly convinced that they are right in light of the
Word of God? What happens in that case?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: In the f i rst p l ace , that's not a church
matter . If it becomes a church matter , but there are ways, first
of all the pastor and the layman ought to discuss it. And then
there could be a wider -- say if there is a doctor, who could
d i scuss it wi th his board and leadership. But nobody has a right
to get up and argue with the pastor because the pastor is assigned,
not that the people don ' t have some right to conflict, but God
Hi mself said in Ezekiel 3 :15 (incorrect reference) " I will give
them pastors after my own. " Being the pastor of a church is a
2
thing that is c l ose to the heart of God. Not just somebody who
decided to vote for him because he is intellectual.
ANDREW MANIS: It still sounds like the pastor can never be wrong.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Well , it may sound like that. And you
have to go with the principle of the fact that the pastor ought to
be right and the president ought to be right. But there are times
when he gets some thing -- Reagan , Nixon -- they're men and not
God. I guess if I have anything that I can be proud of is that
thus far I have always been able t o where it came to leading in a
way where I could keep on leading . And of course l eading means
that you got to set some people aside, like at Revelation. I set
more people aside at Revelation than any church. And like I told
you, the very first church I had , I believe in disciplining a
church , not running people ' s lives. But I don ' t think that God can
ever use a man without a smile or without a heart -- those two
things , those things and discipline for a church as it says in the
fifth chapter of Corinthians. Many people are not sufficient.
Many preachers are not sufficient. I think in some of the white
churches , the minister would do better if he would preach the
scripture and then stand for it. And then let God -- but he l s not
supposed to be out runni ng from opposition . That ' s never Godls
way. Jesus didn I t run from the mob. He said "Rise and let's go ."
ANDREW MANIS: This i s real interesting .
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: 1 1m sure it is. God wouldn ' t deal with
Jeremiah in his mamma ' s belly unless he had a job for him. Before
I formed you in the womb I had a job for you. God lets you know if
3
He has a job for you and He also prepares you for the battles. And
you look to God for continuously enforcing situations you got to
do. Therefore you don't need to hate. See I'm not even bitter
against the system. And I know its still wrong but I've made some
differences. Go ahead.
ANDREW MANIS: This is a hard question in one sense but you can
handle the hard questions.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: It never looks easy.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, its not a hard question. Its just the kind of
question it will take you a long time to answer.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I'll try to cut it short.
ANDREW MANIS: I don't necessarily want you to. But, here again,
I'm talking about before you became really active in civil rights.
Before that time, the first few years of pastoring at Bethel, could
you narrate for me a typical week in the life of Pastor
Shuttlesworth. In other words, if we could just go back in time,
and I had a T.V. camera and I followed you for a whole week from
Sunday morning to Sunday morning, except when you're asleep . But,
if I could just take that camera back and follow you for a week,
what would I see you doing if I did that over the course of a week.
Just start from Sunday morning when you get up and get ready for
church until the next Saturday night.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I would get up and I would probably
look over my notes. I would jot down the most important things I
would want to be sure not to miss saying to the congregation. I am
saying basically what I would do. I would get ready for Sunday
4
School . I don't attend now as much as I used to. But I go over
sometimes . I would conduct the service. Here I let my son- in-law
do most of that. The main thing is his preaching because he is
capable. And then, after the service on a Sunday , if there was
very sick peopl e I would go see them. Sometimes I wouldn ' t. I
been there and I actuall y go out but sometimes in the afternoon I
would have churches come to us . Then on Sunday night at Bethel, we
had evening services, training union, etc . Monday , at that time I
did a lot of just visiting in people ' s homes , sometimes not for any
special reason but just for visiting. Even today, I must admit
that , and being as caught up in civil rights as I am , sometimes I
don ' t have the mind to be there. Where it was a pleasure, now I
have to bring myself to do it. Now if I know somebody has a
problem , I make it a point that I go see them, but then sometimes
something comes up and I don't . But that was a part inside the
working community and is the ultimate. And this is when I first
got to Bethel. Of course, after 1954 I began going out in the
community and doing more issues outside the church . But it was
a lways related to the church , whatever I do, because I don't think
I am supposed to do anything that isn't basicall y what the church
ought to be doing . And that includes working with people who are
not in churches. And really, the church is just now getting around
to that , without they have to work with people who are far more
relevant to issues than they are with what they pronounce in
scriptures. And then "be ye separate" didn ' t mean don't work with
people and live with them in the church. The church is just now
5
beginning to understand that. You have to be concerned about the
things and people have little conception of God and if they would
use God in their actions -- you can't do God's work without that.
Then after the bombing, of course, I began issuing directions, that
was one time in Birmingham the newspapers didn't check with me to
see what I had up because, as I said, I tried to give my life in
Birmingham and I lived as the scripture says. And, of course, you
must remember that also since 1956, Christmas night, my house had
guards on up past the gate. The other thing, my last thing and
when I would program myself, after the bombing I was always on the
phone. My line was tapped. I could pick up the phone and hear the
police department downtown. And then sometimes I'd get a hundred
-- twenty-five of them would be kyke?? calls in the night. Some-times
it would just ring incessantly. I was the kind that never
did take it off the hook unless I would hang it up and it would
ring right back. Then I would. If I took it off, course I knew -­and
there was one time when my phone rang and I picked it up and
said "hello." In a second or two, somebody said "Hello, Fire
Department." Somebody said, "Hello, Police Department." "Hello,
Ambulance Service." Within ten minutes all of them met up at my
house. That happened from telephone calls. And so, it was no
problem with me to do this. It was just a pain in the life of
Shuttlesworth. Yet I took time if I had sick people -- people need
me in emergencies, people need this and that. Once in a while I
would go to court with them. I did this but it took a lot out of
me. It's a burnout. Except for faith and the grace of God, I
6
would be a totally gutted wreck except that God is able to
interfere . I'm saying, and I do now the things that I really
I don ' t try to babysit now. You get to where after while you know
where they're going to go and what they are going to do. You know
it doesn't profit me to keep running to your house or to keep doing
things like that. So I try to live an example. I'm not trying to
build an example . I'm already an example.
ANDREW MANIS: Did people get mad with you if you negl ected to go
see them when they were sick? I know in white Baptist churches , if
the minister doesn 't come and somebody who is in the hospital, or
forgets, that usually means they're going to get in trouble with
these people.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and that's society ' s maybe
babysitting is a part of this ministry but not a part of your duty.
You shouldn't have to babysit people . They're already adults and
most of them have their own idea. It's a help to be able to go see
the sick but there ought to be someone in the church mi nistry -­because
most of the time they say "has the pastor been here?"
"No." They want to pick. I heard a black evangelist say "Tell ' em
he ain't been here but he ' s on his way." But now in this church
they accept it like if I didn't get to see them they wouldn ' t
bother the church. They 1 i ke me to do it. I went out here two
weeks ago and called a couple of my deacons to go out in the
community . Normally I don't send them, but I did that because they
aren 't doing anything as deacons. And I could let my assistant
make the rounds but nobody is ?? ?? ?? where the pastor is and so
7
he has to always remember that.
me, they'll say "Well, pastor,
And right now, well, they'll tell
don't bother yourself." But if
somebody gets sick or loses a brother and it's three o'clock -- I
had to do this week before last. I went to the hospital, sit with
them, made sure the ambulance was called. I do that now. And
sometimes I'll be so -- they don't know it but, that's part of it.
So I still do my duty. But they'll tell me "Pastor, you don't have
to. "
ANDREW MANIS: Did you have scheduled times?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No, I have never worked with a time where
I am in my office and I go visit on Tuesday. I think that is more
for women than anything else. I think the pastor's time is his
members' time. And all of his time belongs to God. And I think
it's wrong for any minister to let a group to tell him "you got to
be in your office at quarter to five." I know people who do that.
But I've never done it.
like that.
Nobody ever dared to tell me something
ANDREW MANIS: Do your colleagues in the ministry tend to have
scheduled hours?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Many of them. And it's good to be on a
schedule. I'm not kicking that. But I'm saying to require that a
pastor is in his office from two to four or from ten 'til two is a
thing that mayor may not be.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you regularly or sporadically, at different
times, but with some regularity, do what persons would call
"evangelistic visits" to try to get people to get saved?
8
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I do evangelistic -- evangelism every time
I talk to somebody even when I had probl ems , but I never get an
application -- and I have some members of my church now. Most
folks change from? results . But I have a peace ?? ?? that came
through that process. And I tell people about it in church , if 11m
talking to a person about a problem , 1 1m evangelistic in that,
because I thine evangelism is not just coming to church but always
thinking about what Christ would do i n situations . rf rim talking
to somebody over the phone or if I am talking to somebody in person
I donlt just l et t hem tell me and I donlt give them what I think .
Some people especi al l y don l t listen to it then and I can onl y
testify. Youlre supposed to tell people whatls right. Not what
you say , or what you fee l , or what you interpret. So I live an
evangelistic li fe . Even now. And my members know that . Some of
them don I t talk to me but they say "I hope he comes by. " If I get
out there and start talking about other things they 'l l be talking
about me all the time. 11m supposed to talk about God.
ANDREW MANIS: You never had a kind of scheduled time where you
encouraged your church members to witness or to have evangelistic
visitation? I know white Baptist churches do this a lot.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH : They do it a lot . Yeah . They do it more
than black Bapti st c hurches . We do it periodically from time to
time. But I have a feeling that that's scheduling -- I don 't think
that and maybe we ought to do some things that become
ritualistic. But I think Christian folks ought to schedule
themsel ves to at all t i mes , insofar as possible , to think about how
9
good God is to them, and therefore, witness. And what God has done
for them, therefore witness. And when I get in this business, even
in a business conference, you can tell I am a Christian, because
everything I say I try to relate to that. Now I'm not a fanatic.
I'm not one of these people you can't open the Bible without you
got to mention Jesus and this and that. But I'm saying you ought
to live in an atmosphere that Christ reigns in my life. And that's
what God wants more than sporadically. There ought to be times
like this, like revival time. Going out. But you ought to live an
evangelistic life to get folks to know you're somewhere in life.
That's my idea.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me shift gears and ask a different kind of
question. Who were your closest friends while you were the pastor
at Bethel? Other ministers?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: The ministers, as I began to tell you
about, we were very close. F. L., C. L., L. J. Rogers, C. L.
Murdock, not because we had ?? but we could communicate and you
must remember that when I got into this civic thing, they would be
in it with me. That was good fellowship. That was some of the
closest ministerial fellowship which was most endearing. There are
some names in this city now who -- some in 7lst -- I have been
knowing since 1948 when I was pastoring Everdale. I had a problem
out there and I had him once to go visit a couple people.
friendship followed through because even in Bethel I was
That
when
I got to when I got into civil rights it was ?? around. Reverend
Lane would drive me a lot when nobody else would. Therefore we
10
became very close. We play checkers a lot and I'd beat him a lot.
I went over to see him and when he was running the board it wasn't
as much fun then.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you socialize, you and your wife, with Reverend
Lane and others and their wives as couples?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No. No, we never did do that. We might
go visit somebody once in a while. I never had a friend that I and
my wife would go to their house. We couldn't find that. I have
been a friendly type person but I never done a lot of visiting just
for the friendship.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you have similar kinds of quality friendships
with members of your church or is there automatically a social kind
of distance between a black pastor and his congregation?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: There are black pastors who drink, and do
everything, have a lot of association with his people. I was in
Detroit and I was speaking to this pastor in his office and he had
some liquor on the table. Liquor is not thought about as much as
it used to be . He was pouring liquor. I didn't even drink. And
today if I was to drink, I don't drink with any of my members.
See, I think there has to be a distinction between them. And yet
I go and have more fun and laugh loud and holler with anybody. I
can socialize, but I think there has to be a line beyond which I
don ' t go.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you feel like you have really close
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Some members closer to me?
ANDREW MANIS: Yes.
11
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Just like Peter, James and John went
further with Jesus but yet they were all the same. Some people
just go further with you than others . I ' ll put it like that. I
think I have the understanding with my members that I'd like to
have friendship , but if I don ' t have it I go on. If I got to tell
the truth my yea is yea and my nay is nay and after that it is hell
nay . And when I took over Revelation I said to them nobody has
anything I just have to have. I I d like to have your love and
respect. Nothing on your table , your pocket , or even your trust
but I must have Jesus and I must -- so this is called "keeps it"
and yet nobody cares almost or befriended as many as I did because
I love them. They know I ' m a regular fellow. They also know that
I 'm the pastor . So I guess what I 'm saying is that I never get
tied up with anybody so that friendship can be thrown at us or that
I cannot say to him that I love him. Many pastors can't but I can.
You may know some who can't.
ANDREW MANIS: Well , you have different kinds . Some are not
comfortable forming close relationships.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: But I love them. In fact, I would be a
very lonely person if I couldn't relate to them. And I have the
advantage here of living upstairs. Sometimes they die and I don't
even come down . But I can always talk to the family. So that's one
advantage I have . If I lived away from this church I might be kind
of a lonely person. Might meet with people where they were.
ANDREW MANIS: Moving to sort of lending of your pastoral ministry
and civil rights ministry, to what degree did the members support
12
your activities in c i v i l r i ghts?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Not even ninety- nine and a half.
ANDREW MANIS: When you say that , or when I say that, in terms of
support .
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I don 't mean they all did the marching.
Many of them did not march but they didn't challenge or contradict
anything that I said or did.
ANDREW MANIS: What percentage would you say ..
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: You talkin ' about Bethel?
ANDREW MANIS: Yeah, what percentage would you say came to the mass
meetings regularly or even once a month?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: As I recall I had 200. Even when we
first started out , they were with me in the drive , because they
recognized there was a need. In the civil rights you put the
church in danger. I always had many come. Now in the march that
was different . But you must remember that, had it not been for
Bethel as a group, the Movement might never have gotten as
successful as it did because it wasn 't a spontaneous thing with
blacks . (Bus rides??) They had to be challenged . I challenged
and I kept challenging . This thing was being attacked and I was
trying to kill segregati on . But they supported and joined the
guard. ???? be glad when you see the face of the only one Son of
God. There were no problems.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you know of actual members of Bethel who were
among the fourteen who were arrested i n October of '58?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Some of Bethel ' s -- this was the second
13
ride.
ANDREW MANIS: Or March '63?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. A lot of them. Quite a few of
my members were actually in the demonstrations.
ANDREW MANIS: Younger members?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Young and others.
ANDREW MANIS: High school?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Mostly high school . I remember once they
were breaking ?? coming across the ?? in several areas. The ones
that got beat, they got beat each day.
ANDREW MANIS: I had a conversation with a cousin of yours, Julia
Rainge. She suggested without giving many details that there were
some people in the church who were not supportive. I don't know if
she meant generally , to your pastoral leadership, or not supportive
of civil rights.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: They wouldn I t march unless they get
caught in situations where that -- and Julia would know more about
them and talk on certain levels than talking on the pastor level,
but nobody questioned my authority. That was one advantage I had.
Nobody questioned my right. In fact they wanted me to challenge
Bull Connor. Bull Connor challenge us a lot and they felt a great
relief when I could answer him. That's the only way he'd show up.
So that I would think that anybody who might have been, let us say
hand tied, might have been more passive than open . I have never
been anywhere where anybody opposed my work and challenged me,
except Reuben Davis. But I'm talking about in civil rights. Of
14
course you remember I've pastored Bethel for eight years -- well ,
eight years and e i ght months. When I was called in February, or
March , I can ' t remember -- my anniversary in Birmi ngham was a l ways
in March . So I was called to this church up here before
anni ver sary time at Bethel . I wasn ' t l ooking to come to Revelation
then. And I didn 't see how the Lord had sixteen lawsuits and my
love for them was to be wi th them. Money had not ever been the real
thing and it is not now. You can see that because I give away more
than I get. Much of the speaking I did the two years, many years ,
after I was gone was from -- well, I lost my line of thinking .
ANDREW MANIS: You wee moving toward talking about Reuben Davis.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. But insofar as anybody not
supportive , i t just wasn ' t that -- when I was called to Revelation,
I had two problems . One , I was tryi ng to see how God wanted me to
come up here when I was so deeply involved in Birmingham and my
l ove for Birmingham. I spoke about the problem I had in my
domestic life. My wi fe and I got to where we were not close. We
were not close and it is a thing that I did not want to get in any
situation. I'd had problems in Selma and now in Birmingham. Not
sexual. Not like that . And my wife and I never argued. That may
sound strange but it's the truth. I had to think about was it
really the Lord? I was so involved. And I really wanted to stay .
So when they called me up here these people were in the beginning
stages of tearing integration apart. And they always work and so
Reuben's father remained subdued. He never quit serving Satan . It
takes the grace of God. But I have to have respect. In my
15
membership I have to have respect. I better say this. If I have
someone I make sure it is through memorandums that I write so that
I don 't have to argue first. It gets in the horse I s mouth and
things like that. That ' s one way I don 't have to argue . So Reuben
decided , 11m not sure how h i s father was , but his father never ??
?? at that time. So when the church told him and I fina lly decided
t hat I was going to l eave , I still waited on the Lord. It was
interesting to see how that came out. The church voted three
months. That's about al l to be paid. Now I accepted that . I told
them I would. They voted unanimously for three months.
ANDREW MANIS: Are you talking about Bethel?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Bethel. Yeah. Three months. I could be
gone once a month or two if I wanted to and never any problems.
And so it must have been about the end of Mayor the first of June,
or it might have been July I went back to Birmingham to ge t an
announcement to t he peopl e . Reuben Davis said "I understand you
are past oring two churches . You I re just allowed to have one . II He
used t o talk t oo much and he was a smart aleck . If he would listen
instead of talk, he has a hard way of saying things . What he said
might have been doctrinal but you just don 't say it like that. He
wanted me to answer him. I said "no , I won 't g i ve you the answer ,
it is up to the church to decide." So, his father and mother tried
to tel l him, "Sit down, son, you 're wrong. " But he wouldn't sit
down . He was gonna stand up . He wasnlt gonna sit down. Reuben.
And so she was comi ng out of the second or third seat to try to get
him and move him over . But he was trying t o get her back to her
16
seat and slung her down. He was belligerent. He was going to do
see what I mean. So, people thought it was ridiculous. Course
if I were going to stay at the church I would have turned him over
to my church. I said, "Reuben , you're not going to sit down?" So,
finally, o t her folks got him back in his seat. But Reuben still
stood up . I sai d, "Reuben, you aren 't gonna sit down so I can go
ahead and preach?" "No, I'm gonna stand up! " I said, "All right
then, stand up . " See, I wouldn 't have tolerated that, had I
planned to stay at the church . He have to stop then. But there
would have been no use to put him out, although it was against my
nature to have allowed him to do that. So I went on and preached as
if he wasn 't standing there . So we sat down and got at the altar
and everything else. Something said to me and I'll l eave it like
this and so I said , "Now Reuben , you've been standing up all the
time I've been preaching . Do you think you've won your point?" I
said , "Now I have never felt as though I wanted to shake the ground
when I was pastor and doing what I know is right ." I sai d, "Do you
think the church woul d agree with you . Now you stood up and you
have sort of disgraced yourself. " I said , "I don't have any
problems , do you want the church to vote on whether I go today? "
He said , "Yeah, that would be fine." I said, "Well, I think
they're gonna vote what they said . Do you want to try it? " "Yeah,
yeah." I said,"are you gonna vote too?" "Yeah , Yeah." I sai d ,
"All right, all of those persons -- and I said in the beginning 'i f
the church votes with you , I ' ll go today_ '" They voted to sustain
me until I got a replacement to stay there. So, I said, "All
17
right, all of those in the church ," I said , "now I don't want you
to just vote for me , I want you to vote your principles , but now if
you really fee l like you want me to go today in spite of all I've
done and everything else , say it. I won't feel bad. I've done my
work. If you really feel like you want me to go. Now all those
persons who want to vote to sustain me for three months until
August -- now we're votin' if I stay til August or if you want me
to go today. All those who want me to stay unti l August, stand
up." Everybody stood up . I said "All right , all those who want me
to go today, you stand up. " Reuben didn ' t even stand up . That's
it . So I never took anything . In fact , Reuben was determined
about my going away. I told you that . So there ' s no lie about it.
So I was strong there . I coul d have stayed at Bethel then . No
problem. But I knew that the Lord wanted me to come up here and I
went with his blessings.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me shift gears again back to something that we
have talked about before . (NOTE: Question lost in tape turnover.)
* * *
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Supreme Court outl awed segregation. I
think that's the head of it. I fe l t like, since I'm the man who
inspired it all was I as good as anybody else. I felt that God was
moving in human history and using this court to say that this was
wrong. Of course nobody thought it would be as hard to fight the
battles that remained. That's how it was then and i f I coul d have
done something to stop segregation without seeing that I would
have. And I've been fighting now, this i s my 35th or 36th year - -
18
somewhere in there. And I still would have no hesitation if it
took my life to make life better for somebody else . But God has
his own schedule . He has his own ways . I ' ll go back to say again
that Martin Luther King gave the ultimate price that I was prepared
to pay. And I think some others were. Only God takes whom he will
and does what he will. I ' ve been happy just being used by him to
be in the Movement for what I did. Because I know, had it not been
for Birmingham, we wouldn 't be where we are . Kennedy said that
when he went to the White House. So it never bothered me that I
was not the "greatest person in Birmingham." That didn't have
nothin ' to do with it. My neck is just as important as my head and
my hands and my throat. So I felt this way about it but I'm saying
that God was doing humanistic -- in fact I called this whole c i vil
rights struggle a divine struggle for the purification of the human
race . I still think that. And , of course, after that , there was
no question that Blacks would be striving. It was in ' 55. Now you
must remember that I told you when I was coming on and working
wi th people , so that in ' 55 , when I addressed the emanc ipation
program , proclamation program at Sixteenth Street Church with
?? it was the biggest civil rights or human rights program
the blacks had and from that, they asked me to serve as membership
chairman. That's how I got in the position when the state outlawed
the NAACP , everybody focused their questions to me. What can we
do? What shall we do? We can't do nothin'! Yeah, we got to do
something! And that finally was drummed into my conscience that
we must do something. So that in the evolutionary process the
19
Supreme Court decision was a watershed thing in addition to what
had been done before . Then the Montgomery situation , now you must
remember, though, that before, well , yeah, the Montgomery
situation, where·in the blacks rose up in mass, although all of them
wasn't ridin' the buses , there wasn 't but a few to ride the bus, we
cooperated. That first night it was set up I was there.
ANDREW MANIS: How did you happen to be there?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I had met Martin Luther King before
that. I think I met King in ' 54, somewhere in Birmingham , along
about the same time I met Jim Benboski?? They were in for a
meeting and Martin had come. I forget exactly how the first
meeting went. He might remember that. But I was there at the
meeting giving support. When?? Lucy was put into the University
of Alabama in Selma I was there. And so I've been in everything.
I was inspired to dangerous situations. Had no dispelling notions.
I was in it. I tried to get into it. It wasn't a matter of just
trying to get put in this because you don't get put in things to
get killed or get beat up. Back then the press wasn 't as focused
on us. Since Montgomery we've gotten more focus , you understand,
from the press. But between ' 55 and ' 57 when I marched, was mobbed
twice, got bombed twice and everything else, and yet I kept on and
everything that I got in to whetted my appetite for doing something
else to do away with segregation and embarrass the system and
challenge the system from within, without violence all the time.
So that's how I got involved. You must remember, I think I should
tell you this , when we started to organize SCLC and without the
20
Birmingham Movement, SCLC would never have succeeded even before we
got to Birmingham, because the Alabama Christian Movement was its
strongest affiliate. Martin said that and it was right. That was
on my thoughts.
ANDREW MANIS: That Alabama Christian Movement was the strongest
affiliate?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and so Dr. King?? had a movement
of somewhat lesser friction in Mobile. Mobile was a little better
climate. ? had a ? in Tuskeegee. Jemison had a bus protest
and there wasnlt too much else and, of course, my value was that
I challenged Bull Connor and continued to challenge.
ANDREW MANIS: Before you get on into civil rights, I want to bring
us back to this pastoral thing where this touches on that. Because
I know that you could go on forever about specific involvement in
civil rights and at some point I want to do that but in an earlier
interview that live read, you mentioned, you were talking about the
churches response or feelings and you mentioned it earlier int his
interview of how they responded after the first bombing. As I
recall in the other interview you mentioned talking about in that
sermon on the next Sunday "the social implications of the Gospel"
-- that's probably a term or a phrase that you use a lot, what did
you mean by that back then?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: After the bombing?
ANDREW MANIS: Yeah. What did you mean when you were talking about
"the social implications of the Gospel?"
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: That religion ought not to just be inside
21
a church for -- it ought to challenge. It ought to have the same
trust as John the Baptist had when he went to tell Herod to go home
to see your brother's wife. And when (he) lied and went to Jezebel
and said you've taken this thing and violated man's civil rights.
But you won't have it and you're so personable that dogs will lick
your blood. Or Elijah when he challenged the 450 prophets. Its
both/and. It has to deal with your prayer life or your living life
if somebody tries to do it and it also has to deal with how you
live, whether you live under pressure, whether or not somebody's
challenging you. Because it was never God's will in my estimation,
though he permitted it, for a pressure to be ?? ?? and therefore
that's what I was talking about. And as you get in trouble, I
always remember a statement that Dr. Boris said, he said "the book
of action is an action book." He said that the Gospel will get you
in trouble but God will get you out. That's a true statement. And
if you are stirring up something or if you are preaching the gospel
wi thout its social implications, not running into somebody's
feelings, not making enemies, or not overcoming enemies, then its
not the gospel.
ANDREW MANIS, White Baptist preachers of your generation during
those years, they tended not to apply the Gospel. White Southern
religion tended to view the Gospel solely in terms of getting
people saved and ready for heaven.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Saved for what? That's, you know, it's
easy for me. Saved? For what? ?? For what? Except your
goodness or your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the
22
Scribes and the Pharisees, you shall in no wise be saved. You
might always be being saved and never yet saved. Put in a good
purpose, I'll tell you a good cause. It may well be that that word
"lostness" has great relevance for many people in our generation
and in generations past. Because I have never understood the white
minister who said to me "I don't speak for my people. II
"Well, who do you speak for?" "I don't speak for God."
I said
I said,
"Well, then who?" "r'm just speaking for myself." I said "Well,
yourself is a very little particle in this wide province of space,
and if you aren't speaking for God and you aren't speaking for your
people, who in the hell are you speaking for?" And I think that's
a problem. Now, of course, we've got to go back and understand the
background. First of all, many of the preachers and the church
usually lets social standards be set before the church ?? and that
was a difference in the early church and, of course, they expected
a quick return of Jesus. Of course, understand, they want to get
everything right. So they're mind challenging, etc. Maybe we
expect Jesus is going to delay his coming so we can delay doing
something. It could well be that. But God knows it all and some
day he'll make it plain. But I believe that we ought to live every
moment as I said to you before, as if that moment is the last
moment you have to do something or bring something to pass and
every man ought to leave this place a little better than he found
it. As I told you before, I don't have problems with people who
look up on me, even my church doesn't dictate about this and that.
So as long as I get the dictation in the name of God for Christ's
23
sake and watch myself and be sure that I'm not being a coward, I
never tire of doing what I do. I never do believe that God uses
spineless preachers. Or spineless persons. I think he wants us to
serve even if we can't do nothin' else about it. And the prophet
talked about priests becoming dumb dogs that couldn't bark. A dog
that won't bark is worse than anything else.
ANDREW MANIS: In the early or late 19th century and early 20th
century, there was this movement called the social gospel in the
North. Southern white preachers and theologians tended not to pay
much attention to it early in the 20th century. Persons like the
Baptist preacher Raushenbusch that Dr. King eludes to occasionally,
did any of that have any impact on you?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No.
ANDREW MANIS: Have you ever read any of those?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: No.
ANDREW MANIS: So, when you say "social implications of the Gospel"
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I interpret Jesus's life. I don't have to
ask somebody over yonder or some great man here because any great
man, however great he was, is not the present man Jesus Christ who
is the example for our generation and all generations. And I think
all of us can say some good things about somebody or we may in a
certain age say something that the age becomes named after us but
only Christ will last and only what you do for Christ will last.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think there is a particularly black
perspective that influenced you? I mean, is this just sort of your
natural way of approaching the scriptures and the gospel?
24
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: It would be my natural way whether I was
white or black. And I say that with some qualifications because if
I was a white preacher and had a white congregation that was not up
to this as my people accept me, I don't know whether God would want
me to remain there and try to get them up as far as I can or be
disgusted because they won't get up and go. God had to make me
black for a purpose. And so, 11m enjoying my blackness in that
way. I don't think religion is either black or white. I don It
think goodness is black or white. I don't think righteousness is
black or white. I don't think civil rights is black or white. We
just have neglected that because our country came up under slave ??
and lost herself. So it takes a long time. Once you build a house
on it you almost have to destroy it to make it right. So I
understand that perspective, too, and I understand that it is
easier and I used to say this, for white man in the South to
confess his sin. He admits they're wrong and he would smile like
he means it and has been held in awe by changing things. And
that I S delayed so long. And then there were white people Dr.
Martin Luther King talked about being liberal. Some of them are
for my rights until I go to get my rights. You have to be prepared
to be white or black, say your piece, and stay where you are and be
identified where you are on this road of life.
feel about it.
That's the way I
ANDREW MANIS: Did your Sunday morning preaching sermons, did they
change in any significant way after June of 1956? After the
founding of the Alabama Christian Movement?
25
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I have been always as zealous about
preaching as I am now. If I have ???? because of the
more pressure you're under , the more you do. I had always preached
what I thought was relevant and good . It came a time when we got
into the season, the money and the atmosphere where civil r i ghts
were the thing to fight for and so I could relate to that and say
all I could about the gospel then just like I do now. Naturally ,
I I m older now and I know some things. I know some things are
relevant that I might not have thought of when I was 25. So that
a man ought to grow, I think civil rights is a part of what God
always intended for the gospel "Let my people go " is the basis of
the gospel. That tells me God has always been on our side. God
has allowed it that men have had to fight in all generations. Our
generation is just ours. That song "to serve this ?? is my calling
to fulfill" I'm supposed to be doing what I think in my
generation .
ANDREW MANIS: In other settings , you ' ve mentioned other ministers
and black ministers in the South , and in Birmingham, who didn ' t
support the Movement. Why were they different from you? Why were
you different from them in that regard?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH : None, except that you can have two men
standing side by side, one will look up and see the sky and one of
them will look down and see the mud. And in this particular
inspiration, one takes the calling and election of God and his
purpose being carried out to bring you around to see what you ' re
supposed to see and let you overlook something at this time in
26
history.
ANDREW MANIS: What made them so cautious about speaking out?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Could be fear. You must remember that it
was dangerous. My home was blown up. People were getting killed.
That's a real thing. We don't yet know how love conquers fear.
Many people don't and I guess I must say that God updates his
power. I am sure he did in my life. There's no other way I could
have explained how I came through a corner of that house being
blown off without getting a scratch? That was God.
ANDREW MANIS: Those experiences, you mentioned the train
experience yesterday, experience that when you were awakened in the
middle of the night regarding the founding of the Alabama Christian
Movement? Tell me about that experience. I know there was a sense
of turmoil after the NAACP was outlawed.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Frustration, disgust, hopelessness and a
sense of helplessness. And no black power. So you can't be
anything ever but powerless. Any preacher who preaches the gospel
may be saying the truth when he says trouble don't last always.
That's a truism. And when you are enjoined, hate was set up and I
knew that they were trying to kill hope. Faith, hope, truth and
love last forever. I wasn't looking at it in no philosophical
terms. It was just for me. For me that God had brought through in
that experience on the train. It was for me that God brought me
through that bomb blast. See what I mean? And so, I'm sorry, I
hadn't gone through the bomb blast then. But it was the trust and
the things in my own life far from just beyond a vagabond how God
27
had made everything work out . So I was prepared for God to put
wider dimensions , deeper dimensi ons to use and I was in t he place .
It had to be the place , the man , the hour , the time, God , and the
idea. So the consci ousness -- I mu s t have had - - if I didn ' t have
50 to 100 peopl e call me between that Tuesday when we were enjoined
I believe i t was and between May 26 -- no , it had to be more than
t hat , because June 5 , the Movement started June 5 , the 26th was the
injuncti on and that ' s what that week and a ha l f - - so one weekend
had to pass , because J une 5 as I recall , was on Tuesday , so it
might have been two weeks. That would be about right woul dn ' t i t?
So , from the time that that h i t the press, I had over a week when
people were just call ing me and then we had clandestine meet ing
over t he NAACP group. They were frustrated. They d i dn ' t know what
to do . And even Arthur Shores said , I said to him, "No, we ' ve got
to do something. " He said, "Well , anything we do is going to be
aga i nst this ." We sent Aroba?? who was feisty and she talked
tough . She was the onl y school teacher identified in the Movement .
Always had her . She said "we ' ve got to do something . " I said
"Something will be done ." She would say , "We ll , as a lawyer , I ' l l
have to c hange i t and we have to be careful about it ." I said ,
"Well , it won't be a thi ng for ever that we do nothin ' ." So I
dropped the hint then that I might cal l a mass meeting. He said
"That might be in contempt ."
me . I knew that we had to.
But that didn't have any effect on
This was right after the thing
happened . And these people kept on saying "Can we do this , can we
do that, what can we do?" I was never one who coul d say "Nothing ."
28
I went to sleep. This was a Saturday morning about the 4th of
June. Even all the civic leaders were meeting?? And I had
indicated that I had to do something myself. When I went to bed
that night I didn't have any more idea other than something general
and when I woke up that morning, I guess it must have been around
3:30 or 4:00, I thought "What can we do?" I realized it was the
Lord and something seemed to have -- my whole self was involved in
this understanding "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set
you free." There was no voice there. It was in my system and my
conscience. I laid back down and tried to go to sleep. I
couldn't. I sat up again and that morning when I -- I must have
gone to sleep some time. I told my wife, "You know, it I S a strange
thing, I just feel like we got to do something." She didn't make
too much comment on it. Ruby didn't -- whenever I felt like I had
to do this thing, that's one thing she knew I had to do it.
ANDREW MANIS: Would you compare that experience to the train
experience?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, in the sense of knowing that God was
moving me. In the other sense, knowing that God heard me and would
meet my needs and course I realized that, and by the time that
train -- I had solved the Selma problem. I didn't care what
happened. I hadn't talked to anybody. In fact, I got to where I
was almost shaken at the bits for somebody to say something to me
and I could overcome it.
ANDREW MANIS: I am really interested in this religious experience
kind of discussion here. live also heard you talk about a couple
29
of different settings where you felt God was speaking to you
directly and you felt that with certainty. In addition to the
train experience and in addition to this experience of the night,
deciding to call a mass meeting. The other two places, and there
may be more and you can tell me , but the other two places that I
have seen both in writing and in interviews that I have seen of
yours were in the bombing and when you were being beaten.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Although I didn't hear a voice, I
understood, I knew that God was there. I knew I wasn't going to
get hurt. Now, if I were preaching it I would add to that and say
"God says , not now." You understand? But that whole situation,
and I illustrated it another time. You can note something in a
second that you have never read in a book nor ever read. You can
feel something in a second that will deal with you the rest of your
life. But that bombing took away all fear. And then the other
time would be when I was slammed against the wall with a fire hose.
I did tell the Lord when I saw that thing I didn't turn my face
away nor did I put my hand up in front of my face. lim sure my
face was in disfigurement and that water was spraying me and I said
to the Lord "live been coming this way for a long time. This is
it. I'm ready when you are." And it looked like he said "Not yet.
Not yet."
ANDREW MANIS: Before the fire hose , the Phillips High School
beating, there was a point in that where you felt God ' s presence.
Can you talk about that?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: well, in that situation, I know that God
30
had to be there. Because they were saying everything. They really
let it be known that they intended to kill me. When I was falling
down, any time they would strike, you could almost like see a star
like when you would close your eyes and I knew that after I had
taken so many blows, that I couldn't stand it so I straggled back
toward the car. And I said almost like standing against the wall
"this is it." But I'm not sure whether I was, I want to be
honest, some people make up things, but I don't. I try not. I had
the sense of God's presence and God's healing power. Anyone of
those experiences could have knocked me out and I am sure that in
my consciousness I could understand that God was saying "I am with
thee to deliver." But I wasn't taking so much time dealing even
with that. I had the consciousness that I had to get back to the
car but they had carried me away from the car, at least four men
that I could see. So I stumbled back to the car hazy. And one
man, I guess he was trying to set himself to come down and crash on
my head with that chain. I couldn't struggle. I just ran into
him. When I say "ran" I don't mean I ran into him. I mean I just
stumbled and I might not have done anything but fall at his feet
but my momentum carried me on to the car where they could help pull
me in. When I was getting in the car one man got mad at me and
kicked me in the side as I was getting in the car.
ANDREW MANIS: I don't want to put words in your mouth but actually
if I did I would be putting your own words in your mouth because,
as I've read a couple of other interviews that you've done some
years ago, you talked about having a sense, in the midst, right
31
before you stumbled into this man on your way to the car and in
other interviews you said something to the effect of having a sense
of God saying to you "You canlt die here, live got more work for
you to do. II
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: That is true. He said "live got more for
you to do. II
ANDREW MANIS: So this was, again, not audible voices?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: I had a sense of him saying it. I think
I had the sense, I don't whether it was as audible as when I was
slammed against the wall. That's what consumed me. That is not
incorrect, what you're saying.
ANDREW MANIS: So, looking back, because I'm really interested in
how these religious experiences, if you would call them that, and
it sounds like that's what you would call them, how these religious
experiences, like the train experience, the night before deciding
to found the Alabama Christian Movement, the bomb, the Phillips
High incident and then the fire hose incident. There seems to be
a thread running through them in common in that you came out of
these with a deeper certainty.
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: With more determination than ever. Yeah.
Even when I went, I think the county got the car and put it away.
I don't know whether the door was shut then or not. You have to
look at the film. But I remember when we went to the hospital
folks were walking by and I was laying up there like a skinned pig.
I think I told you there were two nurses there. I was calm. I
don't even think my blood pressure was up. It might have been.
32
But I was calm and the one who was trying to say something
provocative didn't bother me at all. The other one was trying to
sound good to me and she said to this girl "you wouldn't
understand." And I said to her "She's right, you wouldn't
understand. " "Hell, I wouldn't let nobody do this to me. It ain't
worth my doin' all this." It was when the doctor came in
eventually and he was very apologetic and he told me he would have
to do a lot of x-rays. I said, "Do what you have to do. I've done
what I had to do." Then he said, after he heard me quite a bit, he
said "I don't see how you've taken all these blows with no
contusions. You're calm and everything. But I would like to
observe you because sometimes people don't show everything. II I
said, "Well, if you order me into the hospital I'll have to go but
I won't go unless you have two policemen on the outside and one on
the inside. I could go home and die among my friends." He wanted
to observe my head? I told him, "the Lord knew I'd have a hard
time so he gave me a hard head." That's how you explain the thing.
What else? That gives God the glory. And I try whenever I speak,
however much it looks like I'm doing it, I really try to give
deference to God. That is the way Paul did it -- God through me.
And that's what God wants us to do.
ANDREW MANIS: Did these experiences, when you've keenly felt God's
presence,
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Let's just say I especially felt God's
presence. That isn't the only time I felt it. Go ahead.
ANDREW MANIS: Did those experiences make you more certain when it
33
came to confronting the powers that were?
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: More certain and more eager .
ANDREW MANIS: Would that be the case both in confronting powers
both among people like Bull Connor on the one hand or , if you had
a difference with Dr. King, or a difference with someone in your
church, would those experiences have
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: It's one in all the same thing to me. I
see evil as evil whether the righteous man does it or not. And I
see where man compromises with his deepest princi ples as evil . And
I think I said to you I understand all the pressure that was on
Martin Luther King. Most people couldn ' t understand them -- you
got to be in some situations -- and I never thought he was any less
present because he didn 't, but I think with the president of the
United States, with Robert Kennedy, with Burt Marshall and Fred??
with his wavering voice , convincing Martin that he has done all he
could and just this little here and they have assured me I'm sure
(I don 't know whether these were the exact words) what they would
do if we would just "call it off." Well, as groggy as I was and as
angry as I was that they didn't come to see about it and I didn't
let that be the mai n thing. I had the instantaneous perception
that if the public? could ever think you didn ' t get a victory, you
were dead. I had that understanding. And I don't play God but I
wouldn't doubt that if there had been something else written
ascertaining that they would do so and so that it would had to have
been written. You understand? If they had given back Marshall and
let's speculate. Because we all do that to be honest. If they had
34
given Burt Marshall a written
legitimate gripes, blah, blah,
thing that recognize, you know,
blah, this and that , and if the
demonstrating had been called off by "X" time and "X" -- it would
have to be a week. You know, no two or three weeks to get the
thing done, I would never agree to that. I'm talking about
conditions if we might have agreed? Do you understand? But it
had to be written because I knew they'd lie. The l ied to us
before. I had King's definite agreement before he came in that we
know the courts -- that we are going on and that I had his backing.
Seven years behind me and these people never lie to me and that
they had done it on my word so you see what a predicament I was in
and I didn't try to find a way out. And I said "no, no , no , hell
no, a thousand times no? " Can you know? Burt Mar . . and Burt
was one of the first ones to concede that there was no way. King
was down a t the ?? after I talked with Ralph, got on his knees and
came to me. I don't know whether you heard that. Down on his
knees. "Now Fred, you ?? Now, Fred, you and I can talk to him and
I 'll get on my knees." You can get on your damn belly. It won ' t
make any difference . Get up. You can get on your knees or your
belly . We are not calling it off. And that's when the time came
when they said "Well, what about the press conference?" I didn't
know nothin ' 'bout no press conference . I said, "Oh , you got a
press conference !" Somebody said "Yeah, the press is gonna
announce it in Washington." I said, "Oh , you got this down -­well
, why did you call me? Why in the hell did you call me if you
guys set up -- go ahead and do it but I 'll tell you what . You are
35
gonna be Mr. Shit. Go ahead and call it off. I'm gonna go ahead
and get back in my sick bed. And when I see it on T.V. that you've
called it off. What little strength I've got. Get up and stagger
over here and meet them 3,000 kids in the streets and you'll be
dead." Then Martin said -- I said "I'm gonna •.. " --see, I tried
to get up and -- I wasn't conscious all that week. And fell back
down and then I'm glad my wife -- I said "I'm goin' back home."
Martin said, "Wait a minute, Fred, wait, we've got to have unity."
I said, "You damn shot have." I think that was God, too, just as
much as it was over here against the wall. I think that was God.
Because if God had permitted me to say "yes" the victory that -- we
can claim the victory, can't we, because we had to do it and then
they had sense enough to recognize that they better let me read the
agreement. I was still hazy the next day when we did it. But when
Burt went back and Burt said well, I said to Burt "any
agreement. " Burt said "but I have made a promises to these
people." That's all he said and he wasn't saying it directly to
me. I said "Burt, any agreement that you make that I did not agree
to is not any good. I don't have anything else to say about it.
I'm gone." I got up and went out. And we did not call it off. If
the white crowd had ever been able to say we called it off without
a victory we would not have had one. So God knew uses people for
certain purposes. And the goodness of men come very close many
times to making a fatal mistake. But I think it was God in it.
Now I was saying some hot language because I was hot. Had two or
three reasons to be. One, had I been in the movement with you,
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and I'm not sure whether it would break Marshall ... -- Martin and
Ralph had a knack for just messin' around but I would have sho' nuf
made it ? We would have been thrilled? with the Movement. And
I would have felt better. You know, I'm not maybe God had, you
see, when you talk about God , don 't never count God short . And
never think you see all about God. I would suspect I would have
been much better off had they come to see me that night. But see,
what they thought was, and I'm sure, as I look at this thing -- and
I ain ' t give it much thought. I didn't think no more about it.
I'm sure that they knew that my word would have been "no" even i f
they had come , so they'd rather stay away, but to have a press
conference -- to have the president of the United States. (Laughs.)
What could you say but no -- but yes? And I think I told you about
Golden or whoever it was, had -- Bobby Kennedy called. Evidently
he asked how it was going and everything. I heard him say "hit a
snag. " He said, "the frail one." I said , "I presume you're
talking to the president or his brother? And I 'm the frail one.
Tell him I ain't that frail. " So , you see, God won 't let you be
too frail when you need to be strong .
ANDREW MANIS: So would you say that those experiences
REVEREND SHUTTLESWORTH: Not only solidify the way I was but made
me stronger for future endeavors.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I've got a hundred other questions to ask , but
I think it's time for us to stop. We'll pick up later.
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