e0y2e3 wrote:You act is if I am raging? I really don't give a fuck beyond pointing out that there were THOUSANDS of teeth gnashing posts last year about this shit.

I mean christ go read the start of the lock-out shit.

What goes around comes around, my board got shit on and ruined because of the assholes. I'm going to take the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy when I can.

Meh.... 95%

It applies.

Everywhere and all facets.

Yet we act surprised. You'd think the 5% wouldn't be so surprised???

You can spin it if ya like, but look around the NBA and look around the NFL and tell me which league allows players in their VERY prime (and not in rookie deals or what have you) to play in Indianapolis or Green Bay or Pittsburgh or markets that are similar.

Are the athletes assholes in the NFL? Umm... yeah.But eliminate Brady and go back 15 years and you see a lot of MVPs in small markets who actually stayed there or retired there.

People are sick of the migration in the NBA. Not the fact that athletes are assholes regardless of the sport.

hiko wrote:By the way, Browns up to #7 in the Draft now. Behind fellow 4-8 teams Washington and Carolina in strength of schedule, but I can certainly see both those teams winning at least one more.

For the first time in my life, I actually want the Browns to lose out. It's a strange feeling.

This first time ever?

What finally broke you?

I finally stopped pretending that we could get by with whatever shmoe we had at QB and embraced the concept that the Browns go nowhere without an elite QB.

My opinion is that there are 2 elite QB's in this draft (Luck and RG3) with a 3rd "pretty good" QB (Barkley, who I don't think will be elite but could be in that Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers area). I want one. If that means losing a bunch of meaningless games that they'll probably lose anyway, I accept that.

e0y2e3 wrote:That goes around comes around, my board got shit on and ruined because of the assholes.

your board?

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

hiko wrote:By the way, Browns up to #7 in the Draft now. Behind fellow 4-8 teams Washington and Carolina in strength of schedule, but I can certainly see both those teams winning at least one more.

For the first time in my life, I actually want the Browns to lose out. It's a strange feeling.

This first time ever?

What finally broke you?

I finally stopped pretending that we could get by with whatever shmoe we had at QB and embraced the concept that the Browns go nowhere without an elite QB.

My opinion is that there are 2 elite QB's in this draft (Luck and RG3) with a 3rd "pretty good" QB (Barkley, who I don't think will be elite but could be in that Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers area). I want one. If that means losing a bunch of meaningless games that they'll probably lose anyway, I accept that.

Makes the losing worth something.

Cleveland Browns: Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor Colt McCoy is not doing enough for Cleveland to pass on a potential franchise quarterback. He was a third-round pick in 2010, so it is not like the Browns have a huge investment in him. McCoy could still be a quality backup for Cleveland.

Griffin has been one of the best players in college football this season. The 6-foot-2, 220-pounder is a big-play machine. He has a strong arm, is extremely accurate throwing the ball and has superb mobility, having also been a track competitor. Griffin is very intelligent and a high-character individual. He has the makings of a franchise quarterback. Thus far in 2011, Griffin has completed 73 percent of his passes for 3,678 yards with 34 touchdowns and five interceptions. He has rushed for 612 yards and seven touchdowns. Griffin has the 'it' factor that pushes his team to wins and elevates the play of his teammates.

Readers have been emailing me that they want the junior to be included in the 2012 mock. Previously, Griffin was projected to go at the very top of the 2013 NFL Draft because the early hints are that he is inclined to pull an Andrew Luck/Jake Locker/Matt Leinart and return to school for the 2012 season. Griffin has already been graduated and is getting a master's this year. He has stated that he wants to do his first year of a law degree next year. That would put him in the 2013 draft. It will be interesting to see what Griffin decides to do.

Archie's initial statements were telling and probably accurate. There's no reason for Luck to sit a year, it's a waste of his (and your) time. And drafting Luck tells Peyton "You've got 2012 and that's it", which makes it a lame duck season for one of the best QB's ever to play the game.

If you take Luck, you jettison Manning and start the rebuilding process right away.

If you keep Manning, take a Justin Blackmon or Matt Kalil and use the 2 years remaining on Peyton's contract as a Last Shot.

If I were them, I'd take Luck and be good for 10 years rather than some desperate last attempt with Peyton. I'm not sure how much you save by cutting him, but it's AT LEAST $28 million. That money would go nicely to picking up players to shore up the Defense and O Line.

Archie is kind of a goof ball, and he can say stuff that Peyton can't, but it doesn't mean Archie is even accurate.

Colts have to get something for Manning if possible. No secret I'm a fan of Peyton but I'm sorry you cannot be short sighted if you are the Colts franchise. They do not owe Peyton another shot, even though the org would obviously benefit if it worked out with another SB win. Peyton has been rewarded by means of big money and an awesome career with lots to be proud of. Not to mention the risk that Manning could get hurt again...

The best chance Manning probably has of another ring just might be outside of Indianapolis anyway.

IMO they almost have to trade Manning for the boat load they could get, draft Luck with the top pick they are earning, then use the Manning picks to surround him with talent to keep that train rolling.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Archie is kind of a goof ball, and he can say stuff that Peyton can't, but it doesn't mean Archie is even accurate.

Colts have to get something for Manning if possible. No secret I'm a fan of Peyton but I'm sorry you cannot be short sighted if you are the Colts franchise. They do not owe Peyton another shot, even though the org would obviously benefit if it worked out with another SB win. Peyton has been rewarded by means of big money and an awesome career with lots to be proud of. Not to mention the risk that Manning could get hurt again...

The best chance Manning probably has of another ring just might be outside of Indianapolis anyway.

IMO they almost have to trade Manning for the boat load they could get, draft Luck with the top pick they are earning, then use the Manning picks to surround him with talent to keep that train rolling.

Let's say the Colts keep Manning for one year and then trade him. They would take a $28.8 million cap hit the year he leaves. Add Luck's contract and his backup, you're spending nearly $35 million on quarterbacks. They will not be competitive.

Let's say the Colts keep Manning for two years and then trade him. (I'm tossing out this option for conversation's sake; there's no way Luck is coming here, or should come here, if he's sitting for two years). In that case, the Colts will take an immediate $19.2 million cap hit on the remainder of Manning's contract. Add Luck's contract and a backup, you're looking at about $27 million in quarterbacks.

As team owner Jim Irsay said during the Manning negotiations shortly after the lockout, you can't field a competitive team when the quarterback is counting $20 million against the cap.

And let's not even entertain this goofy idea of paying Manning his option bonus in March and then trading him; that would be a $38.8 million cap hit. They'll be using me at the mike linebacker.

e0y2e3 wrote:Everytime an NBA Star demands out of a shitty team I read about it on this boards.

Manning lays the groundwork and not a peep.

And don't give me the what market shit, it's not even remotely relevant to this.

Manning is the same as them, but no one cares to bring it up. Selective finger pointing.

Bullshit.

Market means everything. And quyit acting like we're not talking about a gassed 37 yr old that just had copious amounts of cadaver bone fused to where two of his fucking vertebrae used to be. A 37 yr-old legend whose best days are behind him and who's trading on sympathy and pride to squeeze out a few more years.

This ain't LBJ, Howard, Melo, CP3, Bosh or any of those guys in their primes dictating which of the 6 markets that are desireable for them to manipulate their way toward.

It's not. And before you even intimate race where I'm concerned, shake yourself. Manning is a petulant and whiny bitch and the family as a whole always has been. He's a prima donna clinging to a dying career that's threatened by his own career mortality and the one kid who could threaten it even more by potentially being game ready the day training camp opens.

When Rodgers or Rivers or Cam Newton manipulate the NFL system to go to the Jets or Giants or Dolphins to play with their buddies in major media/cultural centers, and it actually happens, then get back to me about how I'm ignoring similar systems by selectively pointing a finger.

I think this Christmas, the Manning clan should get together, and the boys ought to take old pops in a side room and tell him, in a Christmasy sort of way, to shut the fuck up.

I mean Christ with these guys. He already made Eli look like a Kindergartener from the jump, now he's going to play Daddy in this situation?

This is a media dream. There's no way it can be handled without all these hounds jumping on the negative side. They draft Luck, and it's the F'ing over of Peyton/revenge columns for months, if they trade the pick it'll be the Colts mortaging years of there future......

And these are the only two options by the way, cause they aren't drafting Luck and keeping Peyton, no matter what Peyton's Daddies wishes are.

e0y2e3 wrote:Everytime an NBA Star demands out of a shitty team I read about it on this boards.

Manning lays the groundwork and not a peep.

And don't give me the what market shit, it's not even remotely relevant to this.

Manning is the same as them, but no one cares to bring it up. Selective finger pointing.

Bullshit.

Market means everything. And quyit acting like we're not talking about a gassed 37 yr old that just had copious amounts of cadaver bone fused to where two of his fucking vertebrae used to be. A 37 yr-old legend whose best days are behind him and who's trading on sympathy and pride to squeeze out a few more years.

This ain't LBJ, Howard, Melo, CP3, Bosh or any of those guys in their primes dictating which of the 6 markets that are desireable for them to manipulate their way toward.

It's not. And before you even intimate race where I'm concerned, shake yourself. Manning is a petulant and whiny bitch and the family as a whole always has been. He's a prima donna clinging to a dying career that's threatened by his own career mortality and the one kid who could threaten it even more by potentially being game ready the day training camp opens.

When Rodgers or Rivers or Cam Newton manipulate the NFL system to go to the Jets or Giants or Dolphins to play with their buddies in major media/cultural centers, and it actually happens, then get back to me about how I'm ignoring similar systems by selectively pointing a finger.

Not to mention Manning is the GOAT and nobody playing in the NBA for the past 7 years is remotely close to that distinction.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

The Big Markets were the ones smart enough and with enough forsight to provide the opportunites for these players to go there.

CP3 backed off his Knicks whatever statements within 12 hours, realizing he couldn't fuck his small market to go play with his buddies.

We have no idea what happens if the teams that had these stars in the NBA actually build real teams around them and the big markets don't strategicly blow long enough to provide them clean slates and all-star playgrounds....

It's impossible to talk about this without making up bullshit statements, especially when the bulls weren't relevant for how long? The Celtics bottomed out this decade... The Clippers... BAHAHA. Bulls bottomed out....

Only The Lake Show are impenetrable.

They are all assholes, and these guys in the NBA gave 6 and 7 years to their teams. That's a fuck of a long time in sports. Not 37, sure, but not exactly young when looking at six year contracts to stay where they are.

KG locking up in Minny as long as he did led to a lot of this, IMO.

And Archie realizing he could control the NFL when he FORCED HIS SON INTO NEW YORK FOR MEDIA EXPOSURE led to him realizing he could control the NFL too.

It's not about New York or Indy, it's about greedy fucks deciding they get whatever they want and certain markets taking maximum advantage of this reality.

e0y2e3 wrote:The Big Markets were the ones smart enough and with enough forsight to provide the opportunites for these players to go there.

You mean the foresight back when people landed there 225 years ago? or the foresight to put their franchise on a beach where it never snows? I'm thinking Nick Mileti looked as hard as he could here for something like that and just came up short.

CP3 backed off his Knicks whatever statements within 12 hours, realizing he couldn't fuck his small market to go play with his buddies.

Or he realized it was unrealistic given NY's lack of tradeable commodities and then he set his sites on the West Coast.

We have no idea what happens if the teams that had these stars in the NBA actually build real teams around them and the big markets don't strategicly blow long enough to provide them clean slates and all-star playgrounds....

It's impossible to talk about this without making up bullshit statements, especially when the bulls weren't relevant for how long? The Celtics bottomed out this decade... The Clippers... BAHAHA. Bulls bottomed out....

Only The Lake Show are impenetrable.

They are all assholes, and these guys in the NBA gave 6 and 7 years to their teams. That's a fuck of a long time in sports. Not 37, sure, but not exactly young when looking at six year contracts to stay where they are.

These guys are 25 and 26 when they're bolting.

KG locking up in Minny as long as he did led to a lot of this, IMO.

And Archie realizing he could control the NFL when he FORCED HIS SON INTO NEW YORK FOR MEDIA EXPOSURE led to him realizing he could control the NFL too.

It's not about New York or Indy, it's about greedy fucks deciding they get whatever they want and certain markets taking maximum advantage of this reality.

When someone in the NBA goes TO Indy or TO Milwaukee or TO Cleveland then I'll put some credence in that statement. Hell, if one of 'em goes TO OKC while the KD and RWB are there I'll be stunned. Unless you can tell me one time when it has happened in the past 20 years....

LBJ played at 26 the next season (and almost all of it). His contract would have kicked in when he was about to turn.... 26.

And would you like to break down the minutes he's played at age 26 compared to pretty much everyone else ever?

It's a stupid point to talk about their age in general, which is the crux of my argument. Six and Seven years is Six and Seven years, especially when you are staring down the barrel of another bullshit Six years in a market that cannot win.

I'm not splitting hairs on the 25 & 26 yr old thing. Three years of apprenticing, learning and maturing, signing 3 yr deals after that and then gone. To four corners of the country.

Just like the NFL. Where AP bolted Minnesota, Roethlisberger left Pittsburgh in his prime, Rodgers went to Miami after splitting GB, Larry Fitzgerald couldn't wait to bust outta Phoenix, etc.

Like I said, you give me a call when these NBA guys get together and decide en masse to go to Cleveland, Milwaukee, Indiana, Denver or Utah. Or tell me why those cities, operating under the very same rules as the ultra-successful Knicks with the innovative and successful James Dolan operate, simply aren't viable.

Let me know when the cream of the crop are dying to get to Cleveland to play with LeBron or to OKC to play with KD. Let me know when they head to those small markets to play for guys like Jerry Sloan or Gregg Popovich as opposed to playing for someone like Erik Spoelstra who they can run over.

But please, please don't compare a 37 yr old QB in INDY with three cervical fusion surgeries in the last 15 months whining about being displaced by a potential 10-yr QB with what the NBA has become.

And that's not a defense of the Browns. They have no worthy or identifiable stars that fans identify with. But the NFL fans in Phoenix or Minneapolis or Pittsburgh or Charlotte or wherever have a far greater chance to be relevant and grow up and older with their stars than the fans in those NBA cities.

That's all I'm saying.

I know you're a huge fan of the game. I know you're hugely disgusted with where you're from. But IMO you're weakening your arguments by going out of your way to justify your pov.

I see a father who has placed his youngest in New York because San Diego wasn't good enough for him.

I see a father indicating his eldest, who has been given and worshipped more in his current town than just about any football player ever, should leave if they draft a threat.

I see this as doing whatever you want and exerting your control over a sport because you can.

I see players grouping up to win titles because the NBA competition right now is off the charts and their franchise failed miserably to build around them for 6 and 7 years (again, look at the drafting histories from where these people left there redefine horrible). I see this as exerting control over your own career.

None of them were traded before playing a down from a talented young team.

e0y2e3 wrote:I see a father who has placed his youngest in New York because San Diego wasn't good enough for him.

I see a father indicating his eldest, who has been given and worshipped more in his current town than just about any football player ever, should leave if they draft a threat.

I see this as doing whatever you want and exerting your control over a sport because you can.

I see players grouping up to win titles because the NBA competition right now is off the charts and their franchise failed miserably to build around them for 6 and 7 years (again, look at the drafting histories from where these people left there redefine horrible). I see this as exerting control over your own career.

None of them were traded before playing a down from a talented young team.

None of them talked down a perennial playoff team that won a title.

The situations are closer than you want to realize.

All I'm asking is for people to accept this.

Possibly wanting to leave the only franchise you've played for and had an incredible & successful career with when you most likely can still play better than 93% of competitors at your position and can possibly win another ring = exerting control over your sport but yet wanting to leave a team in a city/market that is pretty much bleh to join your buds in a city/market that is anti-bleh to try to win ring in a league in which truly only 4 teams really have a legit shot at a title = exerting control over one's career ?[/intendedrunonsentence]

Holy atomic pile of dung Batman!

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

They're not. You're excusing a sizable number of players by saying they're exerting control over their career and minimizing what it means to the sport as a whole while calling out one washed-up player's dad for dictating what happens to a franchise or a league when he truly hasn't the power to even do it.

You're telling me guys like LBJ, whose teams won more games in two seasons than anyone else, played in the Finals and played in the conference finals a few times were failed miserably while drafting 30th for a few years in drafts that are usually no better than 6-deep in terms of impact players.

I just see too many straw men there to give the argument any credence. Call it what it is: the NFL is superior to the NBA in terms of competiive balance and seeing superstars spend the best parts of their career with the teams they become superstars with.

Doesn't make it better. Just makes it easier to identify with. And some fucked up moment of panic from Archie Manning doesn't change it. As to Eli, Archie manipulated that for sure. But Manning and AJ Smith weren't eye-to-eye, the Chargers had blown and Manning also feared after a 4-12 season the year before that there was a regime change coming real soon.

Saying that Aww Shucks Eli was looking for big advertising opps is funny.

I group Melo and the Mannings together. Selfish fucks that exert their will for no real reason beyond their own greed.

The other stars that are leaving, their teams failed at drafting well early in their careers (when they had multiple lottery picks), teams panicked, teams overspent on shitty role players and built dead end teams.

These teams were not real title teams and were so cap strapped they were going to struggle to get there.

I understand why those guys left.

I don't understand why Melo went Melo, Peyton is spitting in his teams face because his ego is threatened (or Archie is doing it) nor why Eli gets a free pass for picking his marketing center and telling the team that drafted him to fuck off.

He's no different than how you're describing Manning. I mean if Wade (and/or Bosh) wasn't sticking around of course LeBron would have jumped at the opportunity to play with the Wadeless roster Miami would have had to deal with.

Plus, I mean seriously, we'er comparing a guy who legitimately tanked post season games to....well anyone.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Cleveland fans ya! We're dumb, rest of the country, write the story again and again. ESPN find the one guy burning his jersey. Rachel Nichols get yer ugly face on my TV and ask James if the fences can be mended. Scott Raab don't strike while the iron is hot. e0 tell us about a charity game and start a lame poll so you can feel good about hating us!

FUDU eat more chipolte away from peeks! RAWR

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

No, if the NFL had a league where building having only 3 ELITE players and the rest of the roster didn't matter was the only way to win a title players would move far more often.

53 players.

Second teamers near as good as first teamers on D.

Coaching to find an edge even more important.

This changes the dynamic of the sport, not the rules.

No NFL player that decided he was in a dead end situation has ever been forced to stay there by league rules. He stays there because the mean player is much closer to the superstar's impact on the field due to the amount of moving parts.

QB in the NFL is the only position that approaches the impact of an NBA superstar and you need 2.5 players at that level to win a title in the NBA.

And the QB running the show is a fairly new concept, as we have clearly gone over on this board.

And QB's tend to have to grow in the NFL far more than transcendent NFL players. It takes time and more time because of all of those moving parts. By the time the QB develops typically the team is a real team or the guy is dead.

FUDU wrote:He's no different than how you're describing Manning. I mean if Wade (and/or Bosh) wasn't sticking around of course LeBron would have jumped at the opportunity to play with the Wadeless roster Miami would have had to deal with.

Plus, I mean seriously, we'er comparing a guy who legitimately tanked post season games to....well anyone.

LeBron never could have won a title in Cleveland.

LeBron had a title window he had to take advantage of.

Peyton had his ring and has very few great rosters that just need a QB.

Well yeah, duh, inherent differences between the two games and how they're inherently played.

Still doesn't change the respective reasons why said athletes try to get themselves into the best situations. Call em greedy, b/c they are but call em all greedy instead of trying to place certain ones from the certain sport above & beyond, and using the rules set in place as undeniable reason.

Couldn't LeBron have re-upped for less the first time to help out the team, just like Peyton could have taken less over the years to help build a D.

The competitive comment was pretty funny though, could there BE more teams in the NBA playoffs (remember I really like the NBA post season).

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:He's no different than how you're describing Manning. I mean if Wade (and/or Bosh) wasn't sticking around of course LeBron would have jumped at the opportunity to play with the Wadeless roster Miami would have had to deal with.

Plus, I mean seriously, we'er comparing a guy who legitimately tanked post season games to....well anyone.

LeBron never could have won a title in Cleveland.

LeBron had a title window he had to take advantage of.

Peyton had his ring and has very few great rosters that just need a QB.

Peyton is spitting just to spit.

LBJ spit because he almost had to.

If Manning leaves it is way more likely/reasonable to believe it is b/c he believes/KNOWS he can still play (and win if the right deal is set up). If Peyton kicks & screams about being traded to CTown per say would he be douchy/greedy, yeah sure. But how is that different than LBJ not giving the Cavs a heads up to trade him and gain something in return the moment he knew he was going to leave. Which depending on who you are could have been 4 years ago or a few days before the Chicago series.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

My point isn't that the differences between the games exist, it is that the differences between the games are why the players show different levels of loyalty.

When LBJ reupped the Cavs had a blank slate and were not in cap hell.

You are dancing around my core statement, the rules of the sport are what cause the loyalty in the NFL, not the rules of the CBA.

And LBJ's first extension was actually fairly small, he wasn't eligible for a true max till this deal. His contract was, uhm, far from huge and he made like nill money for his first three years due to the rookie cap that Peyton never dealt with.

Plus, again, had he signed for free after the second contract they were still already headed to cap hell. You have to draft well in the first three years of an NBA stars career these days, period.

I don't understand why you are trying to force these two things into being equal. I get your point, the situations that unfolded makes it moot.

LBJ and Bosh's biggest sin was not telling their franchises they didn't have faith in them long term.

Dwight and CP3 have corrected this.

Melo is a cunt.

D-Will was traded before he even mentioned it, the Jazz FO just blind sided him because they knew they were in a roster quagmire and didn't want to have him go public and fuck them once they saw him leaving in his eyes.

e0y2e3 wrote:My point isn't that the differences between the games exist, it is that the differences between the games are why the players show different levels of loyalty.

When LBJ reupped the Cavs had a blank slate and were not in cap hell.

You are dancing around my core statement, the rules of the sport are what cause the loyalty in the NFL, not the rules of the CBA.

And LBJ's first extension was actually fairly small, he wasn't eligible for a true max till this deal. His contract was, uhm, far from huge and he made like nill money for his first three years due to the rookie cap that Peyton never dealt with.

Plus, again, had he signed for free after the second contract they were still already headed to cap hell. You have to draft well in the first three years of an NBA stars career these days, period.

I don't understand why you are trying to force these two things into being equal. I get your point, the situations that unfolded makes it moot.

I can see those points, and don't 100% disagree, but the NFL is way more balanced in terms of competition whether you like it or not. Whether someone wants to call it parity or not doesn't bother me (I disagree it is b/c of parity itself). I think it is foolish to not believe that impacts a players decision in terms of staying/going for their future.

...and I know you won't like this, but the NBA game is based much more on a selfish nature than the NFL. Yeah you don't really win much in the NBA without a team, but you hear it all the time that certain players won't like talking a back seat to another player/star if/when they change destinations. You hear that once in a while about maybe a WR in the NFL, but still very rare to hear. Hell we witnessed it last year in Miami for a good chunk of the season.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Again, my point is that THE SPORT causes this, not the rules of the league.

This flies over everyone's heads and they want to talk about the leagues and the athletes.

In a league as star driven as a five on five sport you get more selfish players.... etc....

And I can list the number of prima donnas on the NFL that have had absurd demands in the last decade that will match the NBA. Difference is it typically just comes down to getting paid in the NFL. In the NBA with the 82 game season you start to see more WR mentality amongst "non-WR" style players due to the length of the season causing more disparity.

Do me a favor though, next off-season count the fucks that hold out and scream and bitch. Ask Josh Cribbs.

I want people to stop talking about the NBA being fucked because it doesn't have the NFL's rules. The NBA is just a different world and this modern move toward stars ganging up is centered around how teams have been constructed over the last decade + a vastly different sport.

Either you like basketball as a sport or you don't.

But stop talking about stars leaving dead ends being a definitive example of any sport superiority and start hating on cock athletes being cock athletes equally.