I never said I was against management....It's just not put out there in a manner that takes in the concideration of narrow mindedness....many a guy are hearing shoot all the doe and we'll have big racks...that is the problem.....but even in a well managed herd smaller bucks may need culling and the education is not getting through...until they learn how to put it out there in a sensible manner ...the hunter still has the right to choose...........lets teach them to choose wisely

JPH...I'm not going to go through the hundreds of articles or dvd's I've read and watched to prove that statement...my time is too limited as it is....I am sure that you have read the same ...kill the doe to get the buck to doe ratio =..... in doing so save the younger buck to grow to achieve their best rack potential....and this very magazine has printed charts to show us all the protential for those big racks
I have watch several DVD's where they have hunters coming in and taking..."management buck"....the ones that are 21/2-41/2 not showing the best body or rack growth....younger bucks should be culled if they are showing lack of body growth or deformities in bone structure....
The final thing I wish you to do is read DDH....Oct 2008 John Ozoga's article...Don't believe What you see........Everyone can interprit an article to their own benefit...but I believe this one points out what I've been saying....The powers that be are getting too kill the doe crazy and it's going to hurt many a herd....As far as QDM I have practiced management on my land for years..I went to school many a year ago for rec. land management....Mr.B. went for forestry....I finally after 20 years got my dad in-law to stop the brown it's down and he's never asked a few guys back for shooting fawn...always the buttons..[&o]...But when not on my land or on dads land...If a hunter wants to shoot a smaller buck THAT IS HIS CHOICE...and NONE OF MY BUSINESS.or anyone elses...he should be proud if it was a good hunt and clean kill...At a time where it is still legal to choose...one has no business pushing their way of hunting on another unless that person is standing on your land.....by the way the deer I'm feeding in my plots and deciding not to shoot can travel any place they please and if they go on public land to get shot or to the guy next door so be it...for I know those same guys have in the past gotten up later than I and drove nice deer my way....not looking after a shot and wasting deer is a sin in the highest to me and that I'll get in your face about....other wise I just try to enjoy what I've created...and take pride in my hunts...period

Here is thought where QDM doesn't work for big racks.
[ol][*]Only bucks with racks that are outside of the ears can be shot.
[*]High pressure hunting (i.e. 1 hunter for every 5 acres)[/ol]
I don't have a lot to back this one up other than this is the situation in my uncles deer camp. They have several 8 pointers that are running around the property. They are in a QDM program, but it has to be outside of the bucks ears. Now they have several running around with nice, tall and narrow racks.

msbadger, there is no personal disrespect intended here, but your posts represent the kind of misinformation QDM is up against. The management style you seem to be speaking out against is actually Trophy Deer Management (TDM).

You began by claimimg that someone is out there clamoring that we should "kill all the doe" to get bigger racks. Aggressive doe harvests are a part of QDM but herd monitoring is also in place to avoid over harvest. Doe harvests that attempt to bring about sex ratios skewed toward bucks are a TDM goal.

Secondly, cull bucks are clearly NOT a facet of mainstream QDM. Again this is a tactic used by TDM.

More often than not, when people get a good look at true QDM, they begin to like it. Unfortunately, true QDM can be hard to encounter. That is why I try to counter misinformation when I see it.

But I admit, a lot of people mask Tropy Hunting with QDM talk. This may have been what you have run into. It makes it harder for the true practitioners.

Here is thought where QDM doesn't work for big racks. [ol][*]Only bucks with racks that are outside of the ears can be shot. [*]High pressure hunting (i.e. 1 hunter for every 5 acres)[/ol]

I don't have a lot to back this one up other than this is the situation in my uncles deer camp. They have several 8 pointers that are running around the property. They are in a QDM program, but it has to be outside of the bucks ears. Now they have several running around with nice, tall and narrow racks.

To shoot or not to shoot that is the questions...

The buck in my avatar (5-7 yr. old, 161", 15 pt.,) would not have made the cut.[:D][:D]

JPH good point with your buck not making the cut for most camps with out to the ears restrictions. In our camp we say out to the ears and 8 points but I believe there is always exceptions we use that as a foundation because most deer that are inside the ears are 2 1/2 or younger and if out past the ears ususlly is 3 1/2 or older we on at our camp do not want to shoot that deer (the basket rack) and the adjacent landowners all agree. Like if you know the deer you are about to shoot does not make your points and spread requirment but you or the people you hunt with know through pics or personal experience the deer is 4 1/2 or older than shoot em because any deer that makes it to 4 1/2 years old is a trophy deer they may not always be the biggest deer but a trophy non the less...

I guess I dont care for it when I hear people say I killed a cull buck because he was 4 1/2 and only going to be a 16"-18" 8 point and nothing more, a 4 1/2 is a true trophy. Be happy with the animal.

Here is thought where QDM doesn't work for big racks. [ol][*]Only bucks with racks that are outside of the ears can be shot. [*]High pressure hunting (i.e. 1 hunter for every 5 acres)[/ol]

I don't have a lot to back this one up other than this is the situation in my uncles deer camp. They have several 8 pointers that are running around the property. They are in a QDM program, but it has to be outside of the bucks ears. Now they have several running around with nice, tall and narrow racks.

To shoot or not to shoot that is the questions...

The buck in my avatar (5-7 yr. old, 161", 15 pt.,) would not have made the cut.[:D][:D]

Who are you kidding he is definitely outside of the ears. Also on the question of to shot or not to shot, the questions is when to stop shooting....

JPH...theres no disrespect taken...we actually agree on many points....Funny thing is that I've been to a few seminars and certain.."Main" figures spoke and it was all about that buck to doe ratio... and high Q food as well as rack management...which I sat through the parade of racks and sheds that they had.....now I'll admit and said else where on the bb that they are now starting to step back from that....see with tech. advancing they have more tools at hand and see ...well lets say past flaws in certain lines of thought...I still stand by the conclusions in Mr. Ozogas article...and our DEC uses surveys such as this to determine doe management tags...Infact...last year...I was sent a survey ...explained I'd only be able to do it in my area...O.K do it any ways....they then sent me a letter stating the info they needed was only for a few other areas....Now just a month ago I see they want ppl to survey this area to get a Good count on the population in late Aug. this year...in the mean time they already added an extra 27000 doe permits for this hunting season....please...maybe I'm just getting old...I don't know ..but wheres the logic in that?

Well I have to tell you I do not want this to turn into the AR post ...hashing and rehashing the same things...pointless at best...we all come to the table with differant back grounds and life experiances my views are just that mine and in the scheme of things Who am I? So I'll end by saying....... I wish for all ...that enjoy the endevers of the hunt... to do so safely and with joy in their hearts for the good experiances they have.....[;)]