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I've asked around a bit, and I haven't spoken to many people who actually want to change the Epic skillgain system in the upcoming update.

Most of the changes being implemented sound good, and I expect will bring some life to the server (already have, in fact!), but I don't recall anyone in the past requesting even quicker skillgain than we already have. And I definitely didn't hear anyone requesting this new system that completely changes how skills are gained; where actions give skill, rather than skill relying on timers.

Remember, Epic already has increased skillgain (2x) and the curve to assist new players in starting the game. It has been demonstrated before that you can be completely PvP ready in under a month of gameplay!

In my opinion it just makes a legitimate server cluster seem more gimmicky, like Challenge.

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No 1 month old account can match even an "average" PVPer anymore. I regularly play with and against accounts with 65ish body.

Perhaps not in a 1v1 situation, but how often does that happen? Wurm PvP has always been about working as a team, and a 1 month old account can more than assist in a team situation.

5 minutes ago, Olloch said:

Bottom Line: Anything that lowers the barrier to entry to PVP is a HUGE +1 from me and any other PVPer with half a brain.

I agree with this to a certain extent, but there are extremes in which this stops being true. For example, why not start everyone with 100 skill? I don't feel this change is that extreme, but I do feel it isn't warranted. However, if most of the population support it, then go for it.

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I've asked around a bit, and I haven't spoken to many people who actually want to change the Epic skillgain system in the upcoming update.

Most of the changes being implemented sound good, and I expect will bring some life to the server (already have, in fact!), but I don't recall anyone in the past requesting even quicker skillgain than we already have. And I definitely didn't hear anyone requesting this new system that completely changes how skills are gained; where actions give skill, rather than skill relying on timers.

Remember, Epic already has increased skillgain (2x) and the curve to assist new players in starting the game. It has been demonstrated before that you can be completely PvP ready in under a month of gameplay!

In my opinion it just makes a legitimate server cluster seem more gimmicky, like Challenge.

You can get sotg in 1 month preist and tomes in 1 month damg :0 most people work and only spare 2 hours a day so yes you can PvP in the first month but you would die to trolls never mind players , I like the new changes helps new players a lot they don't know work with 0 Stan is the best skill gain

Edited October 30, 2017 by Dadamage

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WU skill gain is not necessarily faster than epic's current skill gain. Try a 1x Wu server. It feels even slower than Freedom. What it will do is make it so in order to optimize skill gain yu will need to use high ql tools with the best enchants for everything as opposed to having a second set of skiller tools

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Perhaps not in a 1v1 situation, but how often does that happen? Wurm PvP has always been about working as a team, and a 1 month old account can more than assist in a team situation.

The population is so small (or was) that you'd be more likely to be in a 1v1 90% of the time. Currently if your not atleast 40-50 body it's almost a waste of time roaming solo. However, it is worth noting, you can get away with a great deal just by playing it smart, no matter what skills you have.

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I agree with the skill gain addition and anything which could boost a new players advantage against the vets/titans on Epic. I do believe it de-values skill earn't prior to this but i think its an acceptable sacrifice.

I don't agree with the WU Grind change! The main issue i have with this change is the fact that it completely changes the way you grind.It isn't a small addition and im not sure the dev's realise what they are changing? Difficulty isn't a factor anymore, so gold, silver, iron veins etc no longer matter. Improving becomes obsolete for grinding as the best method on WU is actually creating (this to me is huge).

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I don't agree with the WU Grind change! The main issue i have with this change is the fact that it completely changes the way you grind.It isn't a small addition and im not sure the dev's realise what they are changing? Difficulty isn't a factor anymore, so gold, silver, iron veins etc no longer matter. Improving becomes obsolete for grinding as the best method on WU is actually creating (this to me is huge).

I agree with this completely, and I feel I should have highlighted this more in the original post, or perhaps even have a separate poll on both issues. (Especially as we're basically agreeing, but have differing votes on the poll!).

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I prefer Wu's skilling. Your always going to have people with two sides to this. Also those who possibly hear about this on WU and go " oh hey look epic got a change let's go nerd out there.. are going to realise that WO skilling is far different, and possibly tedious. Epic was meant to be fast skillgain, and I think this will help

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I don't agree with the WU Grind change! The main issue i have with this change is the fact that it completely changes the way you grind.It isn't a small addition and im not sure the dev's realise what they are changing? Difficulty isn't a factor anymore, so gold, silver, iron veins etc no longer matter. Improving becomes obsolete for grinding as the best method on WU is actually creating (this to me is huge).

It won't be a direct copy of WU skilling, creation won't be king, and difficulty will be important for optimum gain

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Being able to hop in to PvP used to be applicable to epic whether you were 50 body strength or 30 it didnt matter since no one had stupid DR, but now if you arent SOTG in some form or have ridiculous moonmetal armor etc you are invalid really and die in 4 hits, that and a combination of op tomes too. There is more at play than skillgain really.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Firecat

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Being able to hop in to PvP used to be applicable to epic whether you were 50 body strength or 30 it didnt matter since no one had stupid DR, but now if you arent SOTG in some form or have ridiculous moonmetal armor etc you are invalid really and die in 4 hits, that and a combination of op tomes too. There is more at play than skillgain really.

We'll be doing more than just skillgain, and plan on making some changes with the release as well as ongoing balance changes as time goes on

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For those familiar with WO skill gains, there's tips and tricks to maximize it. I think the skill gain per action (which is apparently not what they're doing? whatever) is more intuitive for new players.

Doesn't seem intuitive to turn on climbing while grinding blacksmithing (for example) to ensure the longest timer, or making sure your tools aren't particularly good rather than getting the best tools you can, etc.

No particular opinion on whether or not it needs to happen, but I can see the value in it.

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Personally, i think they are missing a trick, they are opening freedom to epic accounts. Why not turn epic into 1-2 years fresh start cluster. where it open sup and allows people to transfer with some ###### to freedom (chaos gets new pvpers of relative power comparison) and epic gets a clean slate.

The best time epic ever was at the start. EVERYONE loved the start of epic and the first year was pretty lively.

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I think the skill gain per action (which is apparently not what they're doing? whatever)

It would be nice to get some further clarification on these two posts by Retrograde (emphasis mine):

On 10/13/2017 at 2:18 PM, Retrograde said:

In addition to the above, we will be changing how skilling works on the Epic cluster in a few ways. First is switching the skillgain system over to the ‘new’ system that is mostly used by Wurm Unlimited servers where using your skill is all that is needed to gain in it instead of the current system that relies on timer length and successful skill rolls between 0 and 40.

3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

It won't be a direct copy of WU skilling, creation won't be king, and difficulty will be important for optimum gain

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As a new player, I'm here to tell you that the veteran Wurm community, despite all the helpfulness it can provide, can be the game's worst enemy. What I see is that you've forgotten what it means to be a brand-new player in Wurm, and you stomp on any gameplay changes that might actually improve a new player's experience. (I realize there are individual exceptions, and perhaps I'm using too broad a brush, but I'm speaking of what I see here in the forums as a whole.)

For example, I just created an alt, got her some sleep bonus, and then went out to skill to level 10 in husbandry on Epic. Should be easy, right? Nope. Absolute frustration. Since you don't get skillgain unless you're successful, while at the same time it takes skill to -be- successful, the process to get even level 2 husbandry involves winning the lottery. I had to attempt grooming over and over and over to get a single success and thus any skill. (Ironically, getting from 10 to 20 is much easier than 1 to 10, at least on Epic.)

That's insane. Getting to level 20 in -any- skill on Epic or Freedom should be easy. Both from a gameplay and a business perspective, the game should never, ever, EVER put a new player in the position of being so frustrated trying to get skill that they quit before level 20.

Early leveling should be straightforward, simple, and fun, yet due to the horrible creation mechanic, it's often the opposite. And now, the developers seem to be looking at actually fixing that, and what happens? The vets poop all over it. I get that you all are big fish in a little pond. But why are you all so opposed to making the pond bigger?

I'm a vocal new player because I like the game enough to (so far) put up with its foibles. How many people, however, try the game, quickly get frustrated due to needless obstacles, and quietly go find something better to do?

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As a new player, I'm here to tell you that the veteran Wurm community, despite all the helpfulness it can provide, can be the game's worst enemy. What I see is that you've forgotten what it means to be a brand-new player in Wurm, and you stomp on any gameplay changes that might actually improve a new player's experience. (I realize there are individual exceptions, and perhaps I'm using too broad a brush, but I'm speaking of what I see here in the forums as a whole.)

For example, I just created an alt, got her some sleep bonus, and then went out to skill to level 10 in husbandry on Epic. Should be easy, right? Nope. Absolute frustration. Since you don't get skillgain unless you're successful, while at the same time it takes skill to -be- successful, the process to get even level 2 husbandry involves winning the lottery. I had to attempt grooming over and over and over to get a single success and thus any skill. (Ironically, getting from 10 to 20 is much easier than 1 to 10, at least on Epic.)

That's insane. Getting to level 20 in -any- skill on Epic or Freedom should be easy. Both from a gameplay and a business perspective, the game should never, ever, EVER put a new player in the position of being so frustrated trying to get skill that they quit before level 20.

Early leveling should be straightforward, simple, and fun, yet due to the horrible creation mechanic, it's often the opposite. And now, the developers seem to be looking at actually fixing that, and what happens? The vets poop all over it. I get that you all are big fish in a little pond. But why are you all so opposed to making the pond bigger?

I'm a vocal new player because I like the game enough to (so far) put up with its foibles. How many people, however, try the game, quickly get frustrated due to needless obstacles, and quietly go find something better to do?

Yet, my fondest memories are from when I first started, and I had the most tolerance for the slow things, compared to the tedium of being well established and gaining fractions of skills a day when you are already high on a skill.

And the worst moments, have always been creating alts and trying to do something with them, so, without trying to invalidate your perspective and feedback, I have to say that for me, being a new player was great, and making an alt is no indication of what the new player percieves or experiences.