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Dear Ian and tony,
I would love to meet up. On alternate weekends I have my children but as I bought my Tyne and built the PBK20 specifically to be able to take them this should not stop me. My daughters learned to kayak at Danson and have more hours under the belt than me. (Which is not saying much.)
Regards,
Malcolm

Dear All,
The Tyne Double had a maiden voyage after repairs today.
I took my ten year old son for his first trip in a kayak. Once around the lake at Danson Park and we had water ingress and as the spray deck was fitted it was not from paddle drips. We lifted it out and sponged it out and did another lap this time without the spray deck. Entering and exiting with the spray deck fitted is really difficult when you are over six feet tall. Again there was water ingress. I have found a section of keel strip still on perished adhesive and another flaky area on the hull. I shall attend to these. The canvas is however pretty tired. In the course of dismantling the kayak I managed to put a gunwale pole through the previously undamaged deck. The carry bag is also expiring. So further tweaks shall be made and reported. I think on balance that if a kayak skin is over fifty years old it is probably time to replace it.
Now where was that Tom Yost site?

Dear Malcolm,
Thank you very much for your reports. They are very very much appreciated. The site you are after is: http://yostwerks.org
This is a mirror of Tom Yost's site set up by an admirer after Yost's site (which was .com, I think) went missing ... I think because of a hack or a failure to renew the domain name or some such problem. Anyway, the important thing is that it has all the information that Tom generously donated to the community over the years.

I still hope to duplicate your attempted repairs at some point. My Prefect skin dates from the 70s and so is no older than me ... Um, er. Oh. I see what you mean. That is closer to the 50 years you mention than I'd thought ... Still the canvas seemed pretty good to me.

Again the carry bag on mine is suffering in terms of the threads holding the straps on, but the canvas itself seems strong. I'll report how I get on once I've managed to move the project further along. In the meantime, I'm still hoping to bring my Yost-style pvc reskinned Tyne Prefect down to a Tyne owners'/folding boat owners' get together (perhaps in Kent?) some point later in the year.

Hope to see you then, and maybe to have a look at how your repaired skin turned out. In the meantime do try and post photos if you have any. We're all very interested to see how it looks.

PS. I should confess in advance to a little water ingress in my Yost-style reskinned Tyne. Nothing that has really put me off using it, but next time I get the glue and respirator out I shall try and add a keel strip to give it a little extra protection. I took it out to paddle round Old Harry rocks in Purbeck earlier last month and on my return found a surprising amount of water in the bottom. Of course I then discovered a number of small pin-prick holes where I'd scraped over rocks while circumnavigating. Serves me right for being so gung-ho about scraping over a rocky ledge. I've duck-taped over these, but I need to fix them properly soon. I guess it shows the benefits of hypalon (or even rubber) over pvc, as I wouldn't have expected this to cause a problem to my (rubber skinned) 54-year old Klepper T9.

Dear All,
Having exhumed the mortal remains of my Tyne's skin from the car boot after folding away in a biblical deluge at Danson Park I find that the keel strip is not properly attached and that the silicone has attached beautifully to a surface that is no longer viable and in now no longer attached to the hull. In addition whilst sponging the deck dry a large amount of blue something or other was coming off on the sponge. Dye? Paint? A good clean is required. I cleaned the surface of the bottom of the hull with methylated spirit (wood alcohol) prior to adhesion with silicone but the coating on the canvas had given way. Somewhere earlier in this now rather lengthy thread someone suggested cleaning with a heat gun. As a regular user of same I shall have to retrieve mine from the lock up and give this a good going at though I am a little worried about igniting the aged canvas and melting or burning rubber.
It would seem a good idea to make a new skin as well in p.v.c. with a canvas deck. I am a little nervous about correctly dimensioning the skin such that the skin sill tensions correctly when the bolts through the coamings are tightened.
A fellow user provided a link (I believe on the Folding Kayaks Forum) to a blog where a skin had been produced airship fashion in strips. Unfortunately I was unable to open this. I had been considering this and fretting over the need to stitch seams but with p.v.c. the panels could simply be overlaid at the seams. It would seem possible to tape sheets of newspaper together to make a large sheet attached temporarily to the frame with masking tape and then the profile of the stringers could be taken with a brass rubbing crayon. By the addition of a margin for overlap paper patterns could be produced for pre-cutting and then gluing to each other in situ on the assembled frame. (Why is this site spell checking situ?) The deck could be made of canvas and stitched on the seam being sealed with seamgrip or Stormsure.
Silicone can be effectively and fairly quickly removed from most surfaces with a multi tool (The most amazing get out of jail free card for tradesmen) with the knife blade fitted. I would use this on the keel strip but not attempt it on the canvas.
The skin above the keelstrip held up fairly well for the most part and it seemed that water was entering from the keel area.
Anon.
Malcolm

Hi all
idc re your bag straps, if they are coming away at the stitching as mine were. There is an easy fix I drilled two small hole through and re- affixed with two large rivets. The silver canvas patch that they fix to is very strong. To make the inside of the rivet hold i slid over 2 small washers, this seems to work fine. Mine have been done for a couple of years now, and are holding up very nicely. I would not hesitate to do the rest of them like this if, and when they start to come away. rgds Tony

Dear All,
One of the test pieces that has been gamely resisting Mother Nature's efforts and those of Unilever is a sample of polyurethane backed cordura nylon canvas. This weekend I took two pieces of this fabric and sewed them together with a plain seam with a single line of cotton thread on my 1917 hand cranked Singer sewing machine. So, nothing fancy. I then ironed waterproof seam tape along one face of the seam. I subjected it to the colander test. (line a colander with fabric and fill with water.) After a while it started to weep. the tape was a little narrow for the seam so I dried it and then ironed seam tape on the other face too and took the iron back over the first tape that I had applied taking more care to press the iron right into the step of the seam. this time when colander tested there was no leakage.
This shall now be subjected to a bucket test in salt water with surfactants.
Fingers crossed. If this is successful then it should facilitate making kayak skins of compound curved shapes in airship fashion on a domestic sewing machine and ironing board.

Dear All,
that is one to chalk up to experience. In 12 hours the sample of cordura nylon with iron on waterproof seam tape had admitted half an inch of water. Given that the nylon was taken from the same bolt of fabric as the seamless sample that has been immersed for the last eight months without spilling a drop it was definitely the tape that failed.

Dear Ian,
Whilst looking back through this thread I noticed this post and thought that you might like to know that I measured the screws that attach the coaming to the frames of my Tyne double and they proved to be 3/16" whitworth brass screws. I bought some online though I forget the supplier. Just google search and you will find some.
Regards,
Malcolm

Dear All,
The keel strip of my Tyne had been applied with what I suspect to have been contact adhesive. Contact adhesive is or was made from petroleum (gasoline) and had attacked the Tyne's rubber coated canvas skin and rotted the rubber.
I peeled away the keel strip that I had attempted to re-attach with silicone. The reattachment had failed because the substrate was rotten. The silicone had stuck tenaciously to the keel strip.
The rotted rubber was removed with a heat gun set at about mid heat and a curved scalpel. The scalpel was used with a scraping action and frequently honed on a diamond stone. The silicone was removed from the keel strip again with a curved scalpel but this time with a slicing action. A multitool and sealant removal tool was tried but had a horrible propensity to dig in so I reverted to the scalpel.
Three coats of Gummipaint will be applied to the hull followed by reattachment of the keel strip with GBPro silicone.
The first coat of Gummipaint has been applied. Subsequent coats will be applied on consecutive days followed by the keel strip on Saturday with an appointment to paddle on Sunday.
I shall report back on the results. I am confident as I now know that both Gummipaint and silicone are effective. The problem that I had was failing to uncover and remedy the rotten material.

Dear Ian,
Whilst looking back through this thread I noticed this post and thought that you might like to know that I measured the screws that attach the coaming to the frames of my Tyne double and they proved to be 3/16" whitworth brass screws. I bought some online though I forget the supplier. Just google search and you will find some.
Regards,
Malcolm

Thanks, Malcolm. I'll have a look. And thanks for the further news of your work on the Tyne. I'm hoping it all goes well this time.
atb
Ian

Dear All,
On my visit to the Wey And Arun Canal with the Tyne Double I did indeed leave a wake and not a trail of bubbles.

There are however a few qualifiers.
1.
The keel strip did not completely adhere at the bow and stern and I shall give this a local application of silicone and weight it down under a transformer until set.
2.
The keel strip has been stuck with thinned silicone applied by brush to both the hull and keel strip. The keel strip was clamped in place over the assembled kayak with masking tape. In a few places the masking tape removed more of the old waterproof coating. These will be touched in with more Gummipaint when the postman delivers it from Deutschland.

That aside the Tyne worked well with just a little dribble in the bottom of the hull. The Tyne cut the water well and was lighter and easier to paddle than my PBK20 so I am well pleased.

Congratulations, Malcolm. That sound like a great success. I shall have to try and replicate it on this Tyne Prefect skin that I have upstairs. I am already some way along the route of scraping away the rotten rubber.
Regarding meeting up some time, much of my summer business is now concluded. I returned to the UK to find a major crisis at work, which is now slowly working itself out. It's a complete pain, but it does mean I should be owed some holiday in lieu in the coming months and that may free up some time for either/both working on the Prefect or/and meeting up with other Tyne/folding boat owners some time.

Dear All,
The canvas sample treated with silicone sealant that has so gamely resisted mother nature for eleven months has now surrendered to her. The mould present was not a pretty sight but I think that for such a long immersion this can be regarded as a success. The Gummipainted sample however was still watertight. The Gummipainted sample was removed from the frame and cleaned on both sides with HG mould spray to remove the mould and frass. The Gummipainted sample was then painted with two coats of satin silver finish Bedec multi surface paint which successfully obliterated the orange of the Gummipaint. This was then re=attached to the frame and re-immersed.
The cordura nylon sample meanwhile was still watertight and mould free and I have rather set my heart on finding a means of stitching this together with a watertight seam. I may have just done that. I made up a sample with a seam right across the middle. The seam was sewn as a flat fell with ordinary cotton thread on my hand cranked Singer sewing machine (Poor thing, nothing sheer and gossamer thin will it be stitching). The seam was then coated with McNett Seamgrip. to my chagrin it wept slightly when tested in a colander. Nothing daunted a second application of Seamgrip was made and after twenty four hours of testing the sample was tested again. On this occasion the seam held good and there was no leakage. The sample was then folded and unfolded 20 times and attached to a frame which has now been immersed. Finger crossed.
Anon,
Malcolm

Dear All,
The samples of cordura nylon stitched with cotton and sealed with Seamgrip along with the sample painted with Gummipaint and satin silver multi surface paint remain watertight. The samples have just passed a fortnight of immersion.

Dear All,
It has been a while. I though it would be a good idea to give some updates. The Gummipaint sample failed after over a year of immersion. Does anyone's kayak stay afloat that long. A success I feel. the cordura nylon with seamgrip has also now failed as has the silicone. These all exceeded a year in saline with added surfactants and so surely exceeded our design expectations for a folding canoe. The sample of cordura nylon without seams however is still watertight. Not a drop spilled. It is only intended for seat covers!
the Tyne meanwhile did not continue to behave well. The problem was that the old rubber had crazed and become hard and brittle with the result that the canvas was being asked to make sharp bends repeatedly at the cracks between the hard parts of rubber that still adhered. The answer was to strip off all the rubber from the areas above the keel strip that had not been yet so treated. this had to wait. I was building a second PBK20 and then unexpectedly took on a bind weed covered allotment. Having finished the PBK20 and two new lightweight hollow paddles and built a machine to sieve the blasted allotment I returned to the Tyne. Using a heat gun all the rubber was removed from the line of the keel strip to the deck line. This took a day and a half. I did this on a piece of 18mm ply with a bullnose routed onto the edges to prevent snagging and damage during repositioning. I made only two very minor scorch marks. Where the canvas had been forced into creases by the perished rubber there were some small frays in the canvas. These were repaired with Stormsure. You may recall if you have looked at this long enough that I gashed my first PBK20 on a garage door before it had even been on the water and repaired this with Stormsure. That repair has been as good as new ever since. I had in my earlier attempts to repair the skin used Stormsure on areas of the skin where there was cazing. I did not manage to completely remove all of these with the heat. Incidentally whilst stripping with the heat gun I wore gloves but had to make a wooden scalpel handle as I was burning myself on the existing brass one. All the frays have been treated with Stormsure and the skin has had three coats of Gummipaint on the starboard side and two on the port. The final coat of Gummipaint will be applied tomorrow and it is due out on the Basingstoke Canal on Saturday 3rd June. Given the success of the test pieces and the Stormsure previously I am confident of success and I shall let you know of the result. Hopefully no spongeing of anything but paddle drips this time. I shall try to don the spray deck after entering this time.
Anon,
Malcolm

Thanks for the update, Malcolm. I'm truly impressed by your work on this.
My own reskinning of the Tyne in pvc needs some improvements at some point, and it is good to hear all your updates and be aware of the options available. I still have the original skin and have begun the job of scraping off the loose rubber a year or two ago. When I've some time I think I'd like to have a go with a heat gun and some gummipaint.
Good luck.
Ian

Dear All,
I can report good news from the jaunt on the Basingstoke Canal. Whilst paddling nothing came in amidships or forward. for the first time my daughter Sophia and I used the spray deck. The Tyne is much more comfortable and sleeker in the water than the PBK20s. I am sorely tempted to build a replica. The option of folding one and carrying it on the train is very tempting. I digress. Some water did come in at the stern. I think that this is due to 2 reasons.
1.
There is a rubber reinforcement at the bow and stern formed from old inner tube and the rudder pintles are screwed through this at the stern. I think that the adhesion of this whilst scarily good may not be complete.
2.
I use a stern launch and some may be entering via the deck and deck seam.

It is my intention to clean the deck with Fabsil universal cleaner and treat it with Fabsil Gold.
Tomorrow I plan to squirt a little Stormsure around any suspect areas of the stern reinforcement.

Until the lunch stop on the Basingstoke Canal not a drop was visible down through my aft spray deck aperture. That is until my daughter removed the deck in a rather careless fashion and dumped the water over me. I had hoped that is would prove a better witness to the integrity of the hull but sadly that opportunity was lost.
I was very happy with the kayak however and plan a run down the Medway from Tonbridge to Yalding in it on the 17th June weather permitting. It can then be folded and carried back to the start on the train.
The spray deck of the Tyne is a fag to fit and does not seal completely at the bow so it would be of limited use in surf but I do not plan to take such an elderly boat to sea. In using it I note that as I suspected it hangs hammock fashion twixt the coamings but with the Fabsil treatment administered the water sits on it like beads of mercury. I do plan to make spray decks for my brace of PBK20s but think that it would be a good idea to give the lady some whalebone in the form of glue laminated or steam bent thin ribs in the deck to produce a whaleback and throw the water off. Percy Blandford's idea of clips to secure the deck nearer the paddler and allow rapid egress seems a good one as my daughter and two of my friends found the spray deck a real faff to fit. It is a real faff to fit but on a trip with no or few portages it is a boon.
On another note having built two PBK20s I took them to the Medway a couple of weeks ago on the roof of my aged Volvo tied down to 4" x 2" battens with rope and truckers hitches. I used to use ratchet straps but these buzzed in the wind horribly after the fashion of the Tacoma Narrows at anything above 30mph and rope being of a round section does not do this. Unfortunately one of the kayak's gunwales rode up over the other and the load shifted on the roof. A hasty stop was made to re-tie the load. For the next trip with both PBK20s and the Tyne two fretted plywood frames were cut and shaped with a jigsaw and coach bolted to the 4" x 2" battens to keep the canoes / kayaks centred and prevent them riding up as the frames ride over the gunwales. All was safe and secure this time. The load was again roped down with truckers hitches. I would add that I never top 55mph on the motorway with kayaks on the roof.
Anon,
Malcolm

Dear All,
I would like to add a couple more observations. Firstly I applied duck tape liberally after I first painted the hull atop the existing failed rubber. A few months later when I removed the tape it removed almost all the underlying finish back to bare canvas. The keel strip and rubber reinforcements had been applied with a contact adhesive, probably petroleum based. That also destroyed the rubber. It would seem that neither rubber nor hypalon like duck tape or contact adhesive.
Whilst dealing with the repairs and building of PBK20s my mind is also mulling over the making of a replica Tyne.the art that seems to prevent the most difficulty is attaching a keel strip to cordura nylon. The nylon is strong lightweight and proven in waterproofing. Seaming with seamgrip seems good. But clamping to a compound curved shape such as a skinned kayak hull is tricky.
Anon,
Malcolm

Dear All,
The nettle has been grasped and the rubber reinforcement pulled from the stern revealing a tale of horror or at least sticky failed rubber and dead impact adhesive. This has been scraped away and gummipainting commenced on this small section of the stern. There was also a fabric tape over the seam presumably for protection. This had rotted and has been cut away. Post painting a strip of webbing or canvas will be stuck over the seam with Stormsure. That ought to do it. the stitching is all intact.
Fingers crossed for Saturday.
It is a shame that I have done this piecemeal as I have been working it out as I went along. If anyone wants to repair a hull with failed rubber I think this method works well but just take heart and get on with it. It can be done much faster than I have with the false starts and half measures.
Anon,
Malcolm
P.S. I shall report back on the events of Saturday 17th r.e. impermeability.

Dear All,
The Tyne has made a few voyages and fun has been had but I learned that my Tyne dates from 1958. The skin parted on a recent voyage. This was stitched back together and proofed with Seamgrip which has a brush applicator. The Tyne was taken for a test on Danson Park Lake but it took on water and when taken out the skin had parted again. Canvas does not last for ever. The time for pvc has come. The canvas skin had shrunk and it was becoming nigh impossible to tighten the skin onto the frame. I am satisfied with Gummipaint but the governing factor is the integrity of the substrate.
Anon,
Malcolm

Dear All,
It has been a while. having acquired Tony's 1968 Tyne (My first was from 1958) the first one went well and truly on to the back burner. Having been givena Granta with a perished skin it has become a bit more important to get going on re-skinning. Today I just went to collect half a Tyne that has been given to me. The cross frames, seats, skin and coaming prow are missing. Most of these parts will be relatively straightforward to reproduce if in the case of some of the metal fittings a little slow.
So now I need to re-skin three hulls.
Recently in the day job as a carpenter I needed to apply polythene damp proof course to the bottom of some newel posts that would be sitting in a very exposed location atop masonry copings. I don't know if you have ever attempted to adhere polythene to anything but it really does not oblige. Having been regularly subjected to the promotional video for CT1 adhesive whilst awaiting attention at a timber merchant I was attracted by the idea that it is tough, strong and permanently flexible.
I duly adhered polythene to the bottom of the newels with CT1 and miracle of miracles it actually stayed put. One newel needed modification due to an outrageous lack of level in one coping and so I cut it away with a chisel to allow an extension to the newel. This piece of surplus pvc with a layer of CT1 provided useful test information. The CT1 certainly had stuck fast. I did discover that with dogged persistence I was able to raise a corner with a thumbnail. Having raised a corner it was possible to peel the CT1 away in bits but not a continuous sheet and it was a job to do so. This looked promising. I have a sheet of pvc large enough to re-skin a hull which I bought to make a keel strip for the first Tyne but which will now be used for a full hull. I cut two pieces from the corner of this and stuck them together with a 30mm wide margin using CT1. This was applied in two strips down the sides and then a close wiggle up the centre. The parts were overlaid by the 30mm margin and rolled flat with a piece of stock steel to spread the adhesive within the joint to the piont of squeeze out. After 24 hours I torture tested the joint with much pulling and stretching but without damage. The fabric (approx. 290mm square) was then folded and unfolded 20 times to simulate folding a kayak skin and to stress the joint. This sample has been on a frame and submerged for three days now without issue. The inside has remained dry. This looks promising. There is a fly in the ointment. I was able to pick at the ends of the seams with a thumb nail. I stopped after 20mm such that I would not be below the waterline.
Thinking on this issue of the need for permanent, strong, flexible and tenacious adhesion of pvc, I kicked myself for missing the blatantly obvious. Stormsure. I have ordered a tube and shall make a sample for testing soon. As I repaired the hull of my PBK20 canvas kayak with it three years ago and this has given no trouble since, the omens are good.
Anon,
Malcolm

Dear All,
Here we go again.
The CT1 seam is still watertight.
Another sample has been made up with nylon reinforced pvc. This has a seam secured with Stormsure. The pvc has been torture tested; pulled and stretchedand then folded and unfolded 20 times.
This has now been stapled onto a frame and immersion will take place tomorrow Sunday.

It will be good to find a robust jointing technique and skin as I noticed that the boat rollers at Teddington Lock and Richmond Lock on the Thames are not kind to the rubber coating of Tynes. If the rollers rolled it would help.
The seam made in pvc with Stormsure could not be picked apart with CT1.

Hi Malcolm,
Good to hear that the experiments continue. I still think a meet up of Tynes or UK folder fans is a great idea. Life can get a bit busy, and it may all depend on whether the wife needs the car on any particular day, but I'm open to suggestions for days to meet.
My boy and I had the reskinned Tyne Prefect out again a week or two ago, and it performed well. There is a seam in the canvas where I need to redo the sewing, but being on the top deck, it wasn't interfering with the paddling.
Anyway, keep me posted and I'll make a meet up if I can.
All the best,
Ian

I've been off SOTP for quite a while and just found this thread. We've got a collection of old folders including a few Tynes. Also have Tyne hardware spares and brand new Tyne SD17 frame parts (originally purchased from the factory when the factory closed down). A meet up of folder owners would be good - perhaps a specific thread for this ?

Dear Simon, You must have read my mind because buried beneath the Tyne Prefect heading makes this rather less than visible. I promisedTony and assisted paddle as Tony who sold me his Tyne is now 74 ( I can say that because he is not a lady.) and it would be best to be on flat water with minimal or no portages. I propose either the Cam through Cambridge as the only portage is on rollers or the Thames from Hampton Court to Richmond or if feeling brave Brentford. (one has to be brave because the mud at Brentford and Richmond lock is really foul.) (Simon, I would like Ian and Tony to agree a date and then throw this open on a seperate thread.) It would be good if Andre Du Preez could come too.

Shuggy,
These things have some stretch in them, but really very little that you would notice just handling the skin. As you say, just enough to contain the frame. Maybe of the order of a centimetre or two along the full 12ft of the boat. I don't think of them as elastic, but when you press down heavily on the 'scissors' join between front and back of the frame, it levers the bow and stern into the ends of the skin and that lever creates the tension that provides the rocker and ensures a smooth fit to the skin. If you bang on the skin it is tight like a drum.
All the best,
Ian

One more question, Malcolm. The two rudder points you can see sticking out at the stern, are they part of the rubberised canvas or the wooden skeleton?

Dear Shuggy,
The rudder points are there but not visible in the photographs as all the shots bar one are of the bows and the one of the stern appears to have a piece of black tape stuck over the rudder mounting.
If one does have a rudder then pedals are needed to go with it and cord to tie the pedals to the tiller on the top of the rudder.
I have used my rudder just once but used home made pedals to a Blandford design which sheared half way through a journey. A better pedal is being made. The pedals are connected forward to the frame work by bungee cord in the Blandford design.