Apparently the Greek text is not included, but that's no problem. I am curious to know if it gives the same type of extra info and hints as Pharr does.

The Kirk et al. volumes are nothing like Pharr. This is a full-blown scholarly commentary, with discussion on textual, historical and literary matters. It does not usually talk about grammar. They are very interesting, and you might want to get the first volume anyway, but for grammatical help you'll still need to go elsewhere.

Most like Pharr is Benner's "Selections from Homer's Iliad." It has large selections (all of book 2 except the catalog of ships, for example), grammar notes, a precis of Homeric grammar, and vocabulary, all in one book for about US$20. An out of copyright version of that provides some of the commentary notes at Perseus, but frankly I find books nicer for reading than web pages.

M.M. Willcock's two Iliad volumes have the text (all of it), grammar guidance and some literary notes, but no vocabulary. I have both volumes, and they are useful, but I find the print way to small for pleasant reading.

This question comes up regularly. Perhaps I should make a sticky or FAQ post.

annis wrote:The Kirk et al. volumes are nothing like Pharr. This is a full-blown scholarly commentary, with discussion on textual, historical and literary matters. It does not usually talk about grammar. They are very interesting, and you might want to get the first volume anyway, but for grammatical help you'll still need to go elsewhere.

It has a Dictionary, commentary, and a short Homeric Grammar. I suppose the Grammar section wouldn't be necessary for someone who has Pharr. The commentary is graded; it is less helpful for the later books.

12 books of the Iliad are represented, 5 of which are complete. So, I suppose if one wants to read the Iliad in its entirety, Benner would not be the text to go with. The commentary at points is a little misleading or confusing, or at least suggests interpretations which both I and my professor disagree with.

I also find myself relying more on Cunliffe than the glossary provided in Benner. This is to no fault of Benner; rather, Cunliffe produced a work of such high calibre that nothing else seems worthwhile.

I plan on reading all of the text in Benner, after which I believe I will be competent enough at reading Homer that I will no longer have any need of a commentary for helps, and can then proceed to read directly from the OCTs.

annis wrote:It may not have been a great idea to have an open-ended plan like that. If this were revived, I'd make it a fixed reading, a particular book, or a predetermined selection.

I'm not sure how this open-ended plan was meant to work nor why it didn't work but some of the more structured ones sizzled away to almost nothing as well.
If an Iliad Î² is planned, will it be run like Pharr-a, ie; people entering submissions and guides commenting on them, or will it be the participants commenting on each other's submissions.
What I'm getting at is this; If it is going to be like Pharr-a, I wondered if it would work to have people join whenever they feel like it as long as there are no more than a pre-determined # participating at once.
It has a marked disadvantage, namely; Because there is no group of people at the same point in the book, the "group" discussions won't be as meaningful.
It does have advantages as well;
- People wanting to participate won't have to wait untill a group (that may have dwindled to one or two) has reached the finish line so that another group can start.
- Guides won't have to work their butt of to comment on the work of all 12 or so participants for the first few weeks and then only have 2 people left to finish the group.
The workload would be fairly constant if someone could join as soon as someone else finished or dropped off.
The Mounce-a group had a lot of interest at first but only a few made it as far as the 3rd week. But there have been others wondering if they could join.
Do the pros out-weigh the cons?

An Iliad 2 is not more than a thought right now, but your comments seem valid enough. What I liked about Pharr-b (and I think a reasonable enough amount of participants will make it unto the end) is, that there was support, a place to ask questions to people who would know beforehand what you where on about. Plus kind of an incentive to keep on going.
To expect discussion is always difficult: I have experienced some kind of inertia at different levels in life, where you would have liked to see lively discussion. I think, that's not what you necessarily would want to expect of these groups. It would just be marvelous to be continuing to read one of the great pieces of literature and to know you are not on your own.
Posting questions on this forum comes close, but I would prefer a group effort.

Adelheid wrote:To expect discussion is always difficult: I have experienced some kind of inertia at different levels in life, where you would have liked to see lively discussion. I think, that's not what you necessarily would want to expect of these groups.

I am a graduate of the Pharr-a group and we did have some very helpful discussions. That would be lost in the sort of 'perpetual reading group' I am suggesting. Four people finished the group. I think that is fine.
Now I am involved in two other groups, one of which is still going a bit (but the participants are not at the same level so the group effect is lost anyway) and the other is "op sterven na dood." (Just about dead.)
The one had good discussions but the other had hardly any discussions at all.
I don't know the real solution to these problems but I thought I would trow in a possibility.

Bert wrote:If an Iliad Î² is planned, will it be run like Pharr-a, ie; people entering submissions and guides commenting on them, or will it be the participants commenting on each other's submissions.

In the past straight-ahead reading like this doesn't have guides, just other people commenting on people's translations, or answering questions. The Perpetual Odyssey (requiscat in pace) was very chatty at the start. I shudder to think about correcting chunks of the Iliad every week. I'm not sure we'd find a guide.

There's obviously interest in an Iliad B group. Should it hold off until Pharr-B is done? How many weeks are left in that?

I too would be interested in this. I have no idea how it ought to run or would run, since I've never done anything like this before. I might have to figure out how to work with Greek fonts in email and whatnot.

Actually, I've already read Iliad Beta. I am more interested in the group as a chance to do some in-depth-ish analysis and discussion. I kept a notebook where I wrote down the definition of every word and marked out all of the inflections, which I would certainly use should I join the group. I used a different treatment for the Catalogue ... speaking of which, it is not very challenging linguistically, so I suppose there is not much need to go over it in a reading group, should it turn too many people away.

Perhaps, but without the possibility to check my own scansion (I am not in school anymore), I could be getting it all wrong, without realizing it. Add to that, that I am no natural talent. It took me quite a while (plus googling in newsgroups) to get the scansion of Iliad A3 right.

I have the scansion of Iliad B up to line 167. I stopped scanning it after that because it became so easy it was redundant. Now, when I read aloud an unfamiliar line of dactylic hexameter, I almost always hit the correct meter on the first reading, even with vowels of supposedly unknown quantity. My mouth has mastered the dactylic rhythm I suppose.

How many people have made it into the home stretch? If they're not regular readers of the forum, can someone ask how many would participate in the group. If some of them are interested, can others bear to wait until they're done?

Rindu - e-mail? Where we're going, we don't need e-mail.

I disagree. Unless you've plugged a forum into GTSS, email is still the best way for the longer conversations about the poem that people have expressed interest in.

I would be happy to wait a full 8 weeks. I wouldn't be able to join if it started sooner than this. Right now, I'm reading Books 1 and 18, as well as Agamemnon, Cicero's In Verrem 2.4, Plautus's Casina and Shopenhauer's Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung. So, uh....I guess I could try to catch up with you guys later maybe; I want to read as much Homer as possible over the summer anyway.