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jazzwee .. just a few more CA words ... those first 3 chords bars in con alma ... the progression is also in the last part of how deep is the ocean. actually is a really common progression. it's moves from a I major 7 chord to a vi minor 7 chord and passes through a dominant to the vi chord on the way ... AND the third is more or less held as a common tone through all 3 chords. (that kind of dominant is often referred to as a "secondary" dominant." whether or not you use that terminology isn't important ... sometimes it's labeled as V/iv. But, again, that's not the important part.

so those first three chords show us that ANYTIME you're moving from I to vi you can do it exactly as you see in con alma. in rhythm changes, in blues, in other standards whatever.

hope this helps!

I see that now! Seeing it in E obstructs the thought process.

It's simpler than I thought. Now the Ab7/Eb -- do I treat that as an Ab7 inversion, i.e. a III7? Or is that truly an Eb-6?

Though I seem to have conquered the rushing, I've now discovered that on some tunes, I get into a habit of sticking to stepwise movement and less arpeggiations. I need to practice to counter this. I think I got so used to hearing the melodies in a linear motion. Here's an example. Also my "sentence" construction needs improvement.

Though I seem to have conquered the rushing, I've now discovered that on some tunes, . . .Solarhttps://www.box.com/s/sk2o0qbcnl7xvklccaf9Audience loved it though (lots of attentive nodding heads), I'm sure because the groove was there.

+1 on the great improvement! You sound so much "on it"! If you would cut back on your LH 50% it would sound even better . . IMO.

If you like it! You might, however, find it intesting to identify common tones that go across the chords. Make lines by emphasizing your set of common tones while also surrounding them with other notes that aren't common tones.

EDIT - I found different changes in Colorado Book with Tritone subs added... [/quote]

there are always a million ways ... and the more u work through them, the more you'll have even more choices ready to go

If you like it! You might, however, find it intesting to identify common tones that go across the chords. Make lines by emphasizing your set of common tones while also surrounding them with other notes that aren't common tones.

EDIT - I found different changes in Colorado Book with Tritone subs added... there are always a million ways ... and the more u work through them, the more you'll have even more choices ready to go

I know I have to sit there and do those common tones but I was just analyzing away from the piano. I'm still trying to memorize the changes right now. It goes really fast. Like Giant Steps.

Fortunately, the head couldn't be simpler! That's the least of my problems. LOL.

Thank you so much for your helpful advice! We have another jazz teacher in the house!

This Charlie Haden tune is more modal in comparison (no B section). Silence is really a nice tune. I've never heard it before. Nice find.

Yes, there's a B section, but not a usual one. It is a really beautiful tune, I love how the A and B section contrast each other harmony wise.So for those of you interested and as it's not in any books I've seen, here's the chart: https://www.box.com/s/vmgjhei5hv87l24gg1vpEnjoy!

Though I seem to have conquered the rushing, I've now discovered that on some tunes, I get into a habit of sticking to stepwise movement and less arpeggiations. I need to practice to counter this. I think I got so used to hearing the melodies in a linear motion. Here's an example. Also my "sentence" construction needs improvement.

Audience loved it though (lots of attentive nodding heads), I'm sure because the groove was there.

JW, It's like you're a different player on this track. Your lines are flowing really good. Make sure to rest once in a while. Solar is such a great blowing tune.

Also, can I have your audience?

Thanks Knots and Chris!

I didn't post it expecting good comments. I just hear the problems so that was really appreciated.

BTW Knotty, I had a SINGLE session with Dave Frank and my playing changed OVERNIGHT. Fun session too.

Anyway as I was saying, I wasn't following all of Dave's advice and I could hear it so I know there's some more tweaking. But the main hump has been crossed I think. (Thanks Dave!).

Now on the AUDIENCE -- I can't believe this but I'm drawing a local crowd of Jazz fans. They show up every month. We are the only musicians performing here and we've turned the restaurant/café into a Jazz club when we play. The place is packed. The seats are already reserved before we start by return customers. There was someone (unbeknownst to me) that distributed fliers. These are real jazz fans so they really liked stuff like Inner Urge.

And the tough part is (ignoring the noisy people) they are actually watching our every move. LOL.

We did one trial gig here 6 months ago and we've been back regularly ever since. This is a great example of developing your own audience. And now we're sounding even much better than what they originally heard.

This is the smallest but the most fun place we play at. If you look at the Facebook pics, we're packed like sardines! The audience is as well.

This Charlie Haden tune is more modal in comparison (no B section). Silence is really a nice tune. I've never heard it before. Nice find.

Yes, there's a B section, but not a usual one. It is a really beautiful tune, I love how the A and B section contrast each other harmony wise.So for those of you interested and as it's not in any books I've seen, here's the chart: https://www.box.com/s/vmgjhei5hv87l24gg1vpEnjoy!

We talked about this a few years ago, but do you recall that I thought it was the treatment of the Gb, Eb, Bb and some other chords that made it a difficult tune? The major resting points of Fmaj Dm, and Am are all ok, but then how to treat the semitones up? For this reason I've really enjoyed working on the tune. Once the puzzle has been solved, it comes together nicely except when I forget some bit of the melody.

I don't recall specifics of our earlier discussions on Beatrice but I think this tune requires close examination of common tones among the chords. As I discovered it benefits from that kind of analysis more than a chord by chord approach.

For one thing some of the 'theory' behind some chords are not entirely clear. Is the Am7 a ii chord or a iii chord? Is the Cm7 a ii chord or a vi chord? When I think common tones then it changed the way I looked at it.

I played it today and realized I'd probably change the way I attack this next time.

there's a lot to be gained by playing (only) the melody and (only) the bass line of the opening measures .. so, other words as a simple 2-part phrase.

if you play it over and over again (or perhaps just a few times), you may find a very nice and perhaps not so obvious way to to solo on it. harmonizations can also be found this way ... actually for any tune.

... the key is the two part structure ... (top and bottom lines only) and how that effects what we hear of the tune ...

there's a lot to be gained by playing (only) the melody and (only) the bass line of the opening measures .. so, other words as a simple 2-part phrase.

if you play it over and over again (or perhaps just a few times), you may find a very nice and perhaps not so obvious way to to solo on it. harmonizations can also be found this way ... actually for any tune.

... the key is the two part structure ... (top and bottom lines only) and how that effects what we hear of the tune ...

hope this helps!

I actually successfully played through Con Alma at tempo yesterday. There's some nice tension built up in the first 2 bars of each phrase of the melody. And I realize you don't have to do much there but allow the tension to occur.

Maybe because I heard the Pasqua version first that I like the effect of intervallic playing on those two bars. Sparse but the highest level of tension. Then each following two bars of the A reduce the tension a little bit until the next set of 4.

Con Alma: I played it Dave Franks way with the last A in Eb. It really works well and it's a good exercise to learn the A section in two keys. Improvising, however, is difficult, and doing the last A in another key just adds to the challenge. I'm not ready to improvise on this one in public yet.

Beatrice: jazzwee; I think the reference to C- is a typo? Also, on learnjazzstandards.com, a cite I like alot, they say that the D- in bar 12 is sometimes played as a D major. I do that sometimes as it's a cool sound. One example of this, according to the site, is the Stan Getz version of Ballads and Bossas, one of my favorite CDs (Kenny Barron on keyboard).

Con Alma: I played it Dave Frank's way with the last A in Eb. It really works well and it's a good exercise to learn the A section in two keys. Improvising, however, is difficult, and doing the last A in another key just adds to the challenge. I'm not ready to improvise on this one in public yet.

Beatrice: jazzwee; I think the reference to C- is a typo? Also, on learnjazzstandards.com, a cite I like a lot, they say that the D- in bar 12 is sometimes played as a D major. I do that sometimes as it's a cool sound. One example of this, according to the site, is the Stan Getz version of Ballads and Bossas, one of my favorite CDs (Kenny Barron on keyboard).

I avoid playing m7 chord voicings, except on the Gm7 (and of course the Em7(b5)-A7alt turnaround). I play a min(add9) [leaving out the 7).A tune like Beatrice gains from being sparse.

Now the question is why you think this?

And do you consider the Am a ii chord or iii chord (of Bb)?Do you consider the C- as ii chord or vi chord?

The reason for my question is that depending on one's interpretation, one could linger longer on common tones and thus simplify the melodic flow,

I approach all of the chords that are a semitone above the stable chords of Fmaj, Dm and Am as some type of sub for V7 or ii V7 or some type of V7sus. If I treat them as movement chords everything falls in place. If I treat them like other resting points the lines become harder to piece together.

I avoid playing m7 chord voicings, except on the Gm7 (and of course the Em7(b5)-A7alt turnaround). I play a min(add9) [leaving out the 7).A tune like Beatrice gains from being sparse.

Now the question is why you think this?

Becasue I hear it that way, it's how the tune speaks to me. The m7s becomes to much "jazz chord a la Berklee" at least in Beatrice.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

And do you consider the Am a ii chord or iii chord (of Bb)? Do you consider the C- as ii chord or vi chord?

Neither. I view them as separate entities.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

The reason for my question is that depending on one's interpretation, one could linger longer on common tones and thus simplify the melodic flow,

There's nothing to simplify in Beatrice IMO, it's a perfect tune to me.RE: the Dmin or DMaj, I switch them every other time. As it's the end of only functional ii-V cadence, it makes a nice surprise; this is minor no it's Major . . .

Hey Chris, I remember you telling me you started playing Beatrice without even hearing the original I should see what Sam Rivers does.

You know, sometimes the original isn't the best. I don't remember being too impressed with the piano solo, but then again I'm pretty hard to please at times. Sam's solo is pretty great, but I imagine that he probably worked out how to play over those changes far more than the rest of the band had a chance to. I believe it wasn't uncommon to have charts arrive at the studio at the same time as the musicians in jazz-type situations.

Hey Chris, I remember you telling me you started playing Beatrice without even hearing the original I should see what Sam Rivers does.

You know, sometimes the original isn't the best. I don't remember being too impressed with the piano solo, but then again I'm pretty hard to please at times. Sam's solo is pretty great, but I imagine that he probably worked out how to play over those changes far more than the rest of the band had a chance to. I believe it wasn't uncommon to have charts arrive at the studio at the same time as the musicians in jazz-type situations.

I'd probably assume that Jaki Byard knew what he was doing. Listening to it he's doing that minor/major thing that Chris was talking about.

And to my ears, Sam Rivers was considering the Am7 and Cm7 both as ii chords.

This was a topnotch band -- Ron Carter and Tony Williams filling the rest of the slots.

relative to "original isn't best ..." ... a few posts back there's a list of a whole bunch of people who've recorded beatrice. as you ca see some major players have applied their various styles to it.

sam rivers is the starting place. ... he wrote the tune (beatrice was his wife). ... jaki byard plays a gem of a piano solo on that original recording with SR. you can hear "old style" tenths w/sevenths in his left hand. even through a lot of leading players in the early 60's period had moved to rootless voicings, fourths, etc. but that was jaki byard's way ... where others went modern he went back in time and then vice versa. what's (very) special in his solo is what he plays (and how he plays) over those tenths and sevenths.

if you haven't listened carefully to JB's solo, and also how he comps behind SR, well ... it's recommended listening! but taste is subjective. your mileage may vary.

btw, JB and SR were two of the MAJOR players in boston in the early 60s. and tony williams (the drummer on the original beatrice recording) is from boston pretty much, that recording with beatrice is like a get together of old friends who really know each other's style ...

chet baker has several beatrice recordings, including a duo w/guitar. CB is about as different in style from SR as you've going to find. robert glasper recently turned beatrice into an uptempo tune with difficult rhythms as well. those versions that joe henderson recorded!

if a, b, c, d, e, f, g, played the tune and if you know those versions, you can choose from that pool of experience (or not).

con alma ... i hadn't previously come across that bit where the bridge of CA leads back into the A section transposed into Eb. if you DO go down that road you might consider

1st A as written2nd A TRANSPOSED so it follows from the first. that is, use the C chord at the end of the first A to take you to a transposition for the 2nd A that beings with F major. let that 2nd A take you to the bridge as normal. possibly, since that 2nd A ends on Db, you MIGHT want to stick a G7 in for the bar before the bridge....then keep the bridge as is3rd A in Eb.

so the whole tune (just bass notes) becomes

first AE D# | C# B | Bb E | Eb Ab | Db C | Bb Ab | G Db | C |

2nd AF E | D C | B F | E A | D C# | B A | G# D | Db G7 |

bridge... remains as originally written

last AEb D | C Bb | A Eb | D G | C B | A G | F# B | E |

... so that 4-bar pattern that makes up the A section ends up being played 8 different keys .. !!

.... you may or may not like all that transposition, it's a matter of taste of course. but transpose those 4 bar patterns and become comfortable with them across many keys and easier they will become!