fuzzygeek wrote:As long as LFR is the most efficient means of VP capping, people will do it. I'm not certain this wasn't a deliberate design choice.

It's not, Challenge modes are the most efficient

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

fuzzygeek wrote:As long as LFR is the most efficient means of VP capping, people will do it. I'm not certain this wasn't a deliberate design choice.

It's not, Challenge modes are the most efficient

I actually thought of this, and I should have clarified : I would still disagree that Challenge Modes are the most efficient for a guild (or raid group) as a whole, unless your guild makeup is such that you can perfectly form enough Challenge Mode Groups to run everyone through to cap. I suspect this will not be the case for most sets. It certainly isn't for me -- in my guild I have 3 tanks, 11 DPS, and 5 healers.

halabar wrote:LFR is the WORST way to cap valor. Ever spend 90 minutes on Will?

No, but I don't solo queue LFR. You have my sympathies. I always tank and herd cats. The one time I did queue on my warrior alt along with one raider and two alts we did have an 11 minute, 2% wipe on Will while I talked the pug rookie DK tank the fight. We did kill it the second pull. That particular run took an hour, which is why I don't normally queue without a fair number of guildies.

Again, on a personal level dailies or challenge modes might calculate out to more VP/minute. For a 'tweener guild like mine where we can supply 15-20 people out of 25 in LFR and full clear in about an hour, LFR is far faster for us *as a whole*. I don't think we're the only ones in this boat.

Also, I'm unclear on the actual VP rewards for Challenge Modes. Wowhead's article reports 60VP for the first Gold run of the week, with 10VP per additional run, but I suspect this is old and outdated. There's no way in hell 10VP a run could be more efficient than punching out 5VP dailies.

I'm actually trying to find a chart that lists current VP rewards -- is the 90 for LFR for just completion, and do the LFR bosses also award VP? Dungeons were recently buffed somewhat? Scenarios are 30?

I've only done a handful of scenarios and found them to be silly and unenjoyable. But if they're quick, it might be worth doing those instead of something else equally unattractive. I'm going to look at actual numbers once the servers come back up, I guess.

I'm actually trying to find a chart that lists current VP rewards -- is the 90 for LFR for just completion, and do the LFR bosses also award VP? Dungeons were recently buffed somewhat? Scenarios are 30?

It's only completion. If you compelte it a second time, you get 45 VP.

As far as I'm aware Challenge Mode VP rewards don't diminish if you've already run it that day. I guess I'm not really sure though. Actually running the daily Challenge Mode quest every day is by far the most efficient VP source, though it is limited.

LFR is a nightmare. I will absolutely never go there unless I need specific loot. Every boss kill is another queue because there is zero incentive for people to keep trying or do any bosses at all that they don't need loot from. There's no way it's more efficient for VP than dungeons unless you have a big group going together that guarantees you only need to pick up random DPS.

Eh, LFR's always been pretty much the fastest VP gain for a given instance of time from what I've seen. I can get in and out in 20-30 mins and have 90 VP to show for it. Even Challenge mode would really require the Daily and at least Silver level to beat that kind of return.

Mind you, the derp at the start with, say, people failing really hard at LFR Garalon now would alter that kind of time somewhat. But given that it's an additional shot at filling in loot anyway

fuzzygeek wrote:As long as LFR is the most efficient means of VP capping, people will do it.

Ehhhh not necessarily true.

Nika, been meaning to ask - how do you go about doing dailies and similar solo stuff since you have prot/holy specs? I was hoping questing in Prot would be at least as smooth as it was in Cata, but I find myself keeping retribution as the obligatory offspec.

In 5.1, more dailies are coming but I feel I'll have to go holy for PvP - so dropping retribution is something I'm considering but last time I killed a vermin on my farm as prot... it just felt painfully long.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

this is something I played around with levelling back in cataclysm when we had castable exorcism. The big problem there was hyou had no HP dump until 81 when you get Inquisition, and by that point Ret had also gained many tricks to be significantly superior.

So now that we have harsh words, what's the optimal grinding rotation for holy? I played with it on a dummy a week or so ago and couldn't really figure it out. It seemed like spamming Denounce and Holy Shock on CD and ignoring Judgement/Crusader Strike was the best dps?

Skye1013 wrote:Without a Ret spec, just round up ALL THE MOBS and aoe them down. Vengeance should help speed it up (though nothing is likely to be faster than Ret.)

Think that'll be limited if you are holy though

But yep - I quest as prot and get annoyed when the devs decide to space mobs out so I can't round up 8 of them at a time without one rubber banding. Or to make the lvl 90 dailies go faster, I grab a DPS or healy buddy and go nuts.

Skye1013 wrote:Without a Ret spec, just round up ALL THE MOBS and aoe them down. Vengeance should help speed it up (though nothing is likely to be faster than Ret.)

Think that'll be limited if you are holy though

But yep - I quest as prot and get annoyed when the devs decide to space mobs out so I can't round up 8 of them at a time without one rubber banding. Or to make the lvl 90 dailies go faster, I grab a DPS or healy buddy and go nuts.

Hah!

Two guildies and i always group together to do shadopan/ac dailies - we call it the shadopan express, we normally finish the quests in less than 25 mins..

Skye1013 wrote:Without a Ret spec, just round up ALL THE MOBS and aoe them down. Vengeance should help speed it up (though nothing is likely to be faster than Ret.)

Think that'll be limited if you are holy though

But yep - I quest as prot and get annoyed when the devs decide to space mobs out so I can't round up 8 of them at a time without one rubber banding. Or to make the lvl 90 dailies go faster, I grab a DPS or healy buddy and go nuts.

Hah!

Two guildies and i always group together to do shadopan/ac dailies - we call it the shadopan express, we normally finish the quests in less than 25 mins..

Shado-Pan express. I like it.

Tonight, I'm going to begin declaring it like a station operator: "Shado-Pan express, with stops at the Golden Pagoda, Shado-Pan Garrison and Whichever-Temple-They-Say. ALL ABOARD!"

Sabindeus wrote:With a Ret Spec: round up ALL THE MOBS and AoE them down using Seal of Light + Glyph of Divine Storm. It will be like twice as fast.

I was less successful with that in my ret spec. I could handle smaller groups (8-12ish) in ret, but in prot I tend to round up tons of mobs (30+, especially in the klaxxi zone). I tried that in my ret spec and gear and died pretty quickly. Still, in Prot, pulls like that go really fast for me (I'm sure ret would be faster if I could figure out how to stay alive better). Klaxxi is even easier for me with the zone buffs. I can pull all kinds of stuff there as prot.

Klaxxi works nice if you have Children of the Grave (i think?) the one that has a 50% of turning a corpse into an aoe bomb -- so if you round a bunch of adds, start with the ones that have the less total health. Best thing? adds that die to the bomb have a chance of turning into bombs... so as prot, the more targets you have the better cuz all of the sudden, you have all the adds dying to these aoe bombs and die really fast.

Sabindeus wrote:With a Ret Spec: round up ALL THE MOBS and AoE them down using Seal of Light + Glyph of Divine Storm. It will be like twice as fast.

I was less successful with that in my ret spec. I could handle smaller groups (8-12ish) in ret, but in prot I tend to round up tons of mobs (30+, especially in the klaxxi zone). I tried that in my ret spec and gear and died pretty quickly. Still, in Prot, pulls like that go really fast for me (I'm sure ret would be faster if I could figure out how to stay alive better). Klaxxi is even easier for me with the zone buffs. I can pull all kinds of stuff there as prot.

o.0 I think in most of the areas, I haven't seen 30 quest mobs (not counting things like the flies that are in groups of like 5-8) in one area let alone close enough to snag them all. I'm lucky if I can round up 10 without someone tagging one or some rubber banding.

I'd probably get the one that gets the stacks from absorbing/avoiding hits that turns into an aoe damage/stun for my Enhancement as prot. The Augmentations are more of a toss up since none of them really scream prot to me, but for survival the Amber healing thingy (on the off chance you manage to pull "too much") or maybe the double jump. I generally like the Manipulation one, but I'm not sure what MC'd mob would be good against a group of 30+ .

QFT. As a Tank, you'll have a blast (ahah). Grab ALL THE MOBS, then trail the mobs 50 yards and grab ALL THE MOBS again, repeat until satisfied, then focus fire the weakest. When the second bomb pops, enjoy the fireworks - it's not stopping anytime soon.

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.