I liked some of his other names on other boards too, but this one is definitely the best. But I do miss the Little DB one.

When he had his issues with his Premieres and (I think) Time Warner, it helped me decide to stay with DirecTV and keep my S2s over switching to Time Warner. If TWC sold our area to another cable provider I would probably dump DTV in a heartbeat.

Sup, Mark!!!

I never had TW, I was a long time DTV/TiVo sub, loved it, but went HD with Cablevision/Premire and finally FIOS/Premiere.

Nothing but problems... Wife finally called DTV herself and had us "reinstated" and had them send a couple of HR24's she managed to negotiate for free. We just want something that recorded a show when we asked it to without all the lookups, reboots, etc.

I just made a killer deal for 2 Genies by "committing" for 2 years and couldn't be happier.

Exactly how many times does your MSO have to pay for a truck roll to try to fix something they ARE NOT MAKING ANY MONEY FROM?

So you don't think the $100+ a month he pays them for the privilege of watching their channels is enough?

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Norma Stitz

AFAIC TW goes above and beyond trying to pound a square peg into a round hole to please its customers.

TWC has show plenty of disdain for CableCARDs in the past. They were even fined $20,000 by the FCC in 1997 for purposefully trying to hinder access of CableCARDs to their programming. The ONLY reason they even offer tuning adapters is because they are required to by law, and they still make installation and setup as difficult as possible to push people towards their own DVR instead.

In many other regions, with different MSOs, CableCARDs and tuning adapters work exactly as they are suppose to with few, if any, problems.

So you don't think the $100+ a month he pays them for the privilege of watching their channels is enough?

By that reasoning I should call DirecTV and demand a truck roll the next time my Hulu or Roku acts up. I mean , what am I paying $100+ a month for, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan203

TWC has show plenty of disdain for CableCARDs in the past. They were even fined $20,000 by the FCC in 1997 for purposefully trying to hinder access of CableCARDs to their programming. The ONLY reason they even offer tuning adapters is because they are required to by law, and they still make installation and setup as difficult as possible to push people towards their own DVR instead.

In many other regions, with different MSOs, CableCARDs and tuning adapters work exactly as they are suppose to with few, if any, problems.

Once again, if you choose to buy a Ferrarri from a KIA dealer, and use it as a daily driver, it's kind of silly to get mad at the dealer for charging you $1400 for a tune up and giving you a KIA for a "courtesy" car.

By that reasoning I should call DirecTV and demand a truck roll the next time my Hulu or Roku acts up. I mean , what am I paying $100+ a month for, right?

Not even close to the same thing. TWC is required by law to support 3rd party devices via CableCARDs. These devices are certified by an industry group called CableLabs, which includes members from TWC. If there was a problem with the TiVo hardware it should have been caught during the certification process. Once a device is certified then it should work with ALL MSO's CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters. To further help support this system the FCC also requires that all cable company leased equipment uses CableCARDs too. They're pre-setup and usually locked behind a little door, but all of their own DVRs have the exact same CableCARD you'd install in a TiVo. They do not use Tuning Adapters, as they're allowed to use internal hardware for 2-way communication, but the TA should be using the same basic equipment as their own boxes.

Not to mention CableCARDs have been available since 2007 and TAs since 2009, so they've had plenty of time to figure this stuff out. If they still can't get it working then it's either intentional or incompetence, either way it's their own damn fault if they have to keep rolling trucks.

One more point of data proving it's TWC and not TiVo... People in TWC areas with Media Center PCs using CableCARD tuners have just as many problems getting them setup and with intermittent issues with the TA. So like I said TWC is either doing it on purpose to push people to their equipment or they're incompetent, either way it's their fault not TiVo's.

Well, after being a TiVo subscriber for 13 years, I am fed up with their shoddy product and shoddy customer service

Well on the positive side it only took 13 years for you to deal with the problem and take decisive action so as to avoid prolonged annoyance. At this rate you might be poised to dump your cable provider for someone better in is as little time as a decade from now. Maybe get a better trash company in 20 years' time and fix all the other problems with dodgy service providers by the time NASA puts a human on Mars.

Not even close to the same thing. TWC is required by law to support 3rd party devices via CableCARDs. These devices are certified by an industry group called CableLabs, which includes members from TWC. If there was a problem with the TiVo hardware it should have been caught during the certification process.

Wow, I laughed so hard reading this milk squirted out of my nose!

Considering all the problems third-party devices are having, I'd say the certification process is a joke. Or the law is a joke. It's clearly missing something important if there are all these issues. Why else would an installer being 5 CableCards with the hope that one of them will work? Why do people have to play CSR roulette just to find someone who knows what they are doing? (sarcasm alert!)

And I'm sure the tuning adapter has gone through the same rigorous certification process as the CableCards have. Oh wait....

If all the cable companies boxes have to use the same CableCard and SDV, how come they can do so flawlessly yet Tivo continues to have problems? (sarcasm alert!)

The main reason people don't like Tivo anymore is they don't want to be in the middle of all the finger pointing. They just want something that works, and one phone number to call when it doesn't work. Just getting a Tivo to work at all has proven to be difficult for some people. Then there are all kinds of tricks people do, like power cycling the tuning adapter so the guide can get updated and suggestions can (kind of) work. When you throw in the spontaneous reboots, lack of a complete HD GUI, no VOD, sluggishness, no cheap whole-house solution, etc., it ends up being not much better that the cable company's DVR. Add the fact that when it breaks you have to BUY a new one ($$$) and go through the whole thing all over again, and people just don't want to bother with it.

It's sad, and a catch-22. Very few people care, so the issues never get fixed, so people don't buy Tivos, which mean even fewer people will care, etc.

Considering all the problems third-party devices are having, I'd say the certification process is a joke. Or the law is a joke. It's clearly missing something important if there are all these issues. Why else would an installer being 5 CableCards with the hope that one of them will work? Why do people have to play CSR roulette just to find someone who knows what they are doing? (sarcasm alert!)

And I'm sure the tuning adapter has gone through the same rigorous certification process as the CableCards have. Oh wait....

If all the cable companies boxes have to use the same CableCard and SDV, how come they can do so flawlessly yet Tivo continues to have problems? (sarcasm alert!)

So how come many of us have ZERO problems? the issue isn't CableCARDs or the certification process, the problem is the CableCo's that have fought CC all the way and still don't have a decent process in place to activate them. Even Verizon which has done very well, has issues, calling a CSR to activate a CableCARD is hit or miss as to if it happens properly, but if we call in and do the automated process entering the numbers ourselves it works fine. Clearly CableCARDS work fine since the new cable boxes all have them, the reason they work is they take the CSR process out of the picture since they're treated as closed systems with no need to pair and activate manually, they just press a button and it's done for them.

The issue here has never been Tivo or the Cable Labs certification process, it's ALWAYS been the MSO's

__________________"There is a distinct difference between having an open mind and having a hole in your head from which your brain leaks out."

The main reason people don't like Tivo anymore is they don't want to be in the middle of all the finger pointing. They just want something that works, and one phone number to call when it doesn't work. Just getting a Tivo to work at all has proven to be difficult for some people. Then there are all kinds of tricks people do, like power cycling the tuning adapter so the guide can get updated and suggestions can (kind of) work. When you throw in the spontaneous reboots, lack of a complete HD GUI, no VOD, sluggishness, no cheap whole-house solution, etc., it ends up being not much better that the cable company's DVR. Add the fact that when it breaks you have to BUY a new one ($$$) and go through the whole thing all over again, and people just don't want to bother with it.

There are thousands of threads on this site alone that complain about the same issues (lookups, reboots, etc) they are not all from the same MSO. As a matter of fact there's probably a poblem with TiVo and EVERY MSO IN THE COUNTRY!

Anybody want to guess what the constant denominator is?

If your product has issues with EVERY MSO it might be time stop looking for black helicopters and to start blaming your product.

Seriously, the MSO's are not out to get ya, they have plenty of people that use their products without a problem, they don't need to sabotage the last couple of die hards and geeks.

In my experience with cable cards with Comcast and FiOS it was always a matter of getting a tech that knew the correct person to get in contact with. And then the correct info had to also be relayed and also had to be input correctly. If you didn't have the proper person, or the number was read wrong, or it was input wrong, there were always issues.

With the FiOS automated process you take out all the middle people and get the info and input it yourself. Which in my use lead to no issues when I paired my cable cards last year. Which seemed like a breath of fresh air compared to the old way of pairing the cable cards.

In my experience with cable cards with Comcast and FiOS it was always a matter of getting a tech that knew the correct person to get in contact with. And then the correct info had to also be relayed and also had to be input correctly. If you didn't have the proper person, or the number was read wrong, or it was input wrong, there were always issues.

With the FiOS automated process you take out all the middle people and get the info and input it yourself. Which in my use lead to no issues when I paired my cable cards last year. Which seemed like a breath of fresh air compared to the old way of pairing the cable cards.

I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...

.........
The main reason people don't like Tivo anymore is they don't want to be in the middle of all the finger pointing. They just want something that works, and one phone number to call when it doesn't work. Just getting a Tivo to work at all has proven to be difficult for some people. Then there are all kinds of tricks people do, like power cycling the tuning adapter so the guide can get updated and suggestions can (kind of) work. When you throw in the spontaneous reboots, lack of a complete HD GUI, no VOD, sluggishness, no cheap whole-house solution, etc., it ends up being not much better that the cable company's DVR. Add the fact that when it breaks you have to BUY a new one ($$$) and go through the whole thing all over again, and people just don't want to bother with it.

It's sad, and a catch-22. Very few people care, so the issues never get fixed, so people don't buy Tivos, which mean even fewer people will care, etc.

I agree. However, using the cable co's DVR isn't always trouble free. They also have to be rebooted occasionally and have problems that require more than one truck roll to fix.

Given the complexities involved in devising a third-party generic DVR system (e.g., TiVo) to work with digital cable, and SDV, it could be viewed as somewhat fortunate that TiVo is still available at all. It required the government forcing a (non free market) solution for which it doesn't have the horsepower to enforce trouble-free operation. (And I'm glad it doesn't -- we can't afford even more government).

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I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...

The reality is, it is very very hard for the average person to have any idea where the problem is when he/she has one. Just too many pieces that can have issues and with multiple players providing those different pieces it becomes a support nightmare for everyone when something goes wrong and the problem isn't clearly identifiable.

I long ago stopped recommend TiVo to anyone other than OTA only people as I have no desire to provide free support. That is why in my opinion Stand Alone TiVos are and will remain a niche product and TiVo's best hope is partnering with MSOs.

What I find funny is we really don't hear much from people who rent TiVo DVRs from MSOs. After all they are the same TiVo DVRS that some people have so many issues when they buy them.

[quote=atmuscarella;9682177]The reality is, it is very very hard for the average person to have any idea where the problem is when he/she has one. Just too many pieces that can have issues and with multiple players providing those different pieces it becomes a support nightmare for everyone when something goes wrong and the problem isn't clearly identifiable.
QUOTE]

On every TiVo survey, I always add a note mentioning the need for USER Accessible diagnostics and not the obscure kickstart commands. Doesn't seem to matter much, but I do it anyway. The main advantage of MSO units is that they are easily repaired by novices - return them (lose your shows, but you can always start over). Us TiVo fanatics don't really need this, but at the same time, why does it HAVE to be hard??? I've recommended many a folk to use MSO boxes for this very reason alone, knowing that I'm doing them no favors in the daily user experience department.

I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...

Those sorts of things are TiVo issues, at least most of the time. The one exception is the Tuning Adapter. TiVo has to stay in constant communication with the TA via USB. If it locks up or becomes sluggish then it can, by proxy, lock up the TiVo or make the TiVo sluggish. Most of the time the companies that manufacture these TAs know about the issues and create firmware patches to fix them, but a lot of the MSOs choose not to upgrade the firmware of the boxes they have in the field. Either because they want to hinder the experience or they simply don't care. And this particular problem is not specific to TiVo. There are a ton of HTPC users with Ceton cards that have the exact same issues when connected to a TA.

If you want to fall in line and pay the cable company $20/mo for their ****ty DVR that you can't upgrade, then go ahead. But the FCC has mandated that they support 3rd party solutions via CableCARDs and some of them, not all, are purposely trying to hinder that experience. TWC was even fined once for making their hindrance of CableCARDs so blatantly obvious. So acting like they're innocent and it's all the technology's fault is just ignorant.

no, we don't, we just have someone that agrees with your opinion so you get to jump up and down in "victory"

I don't look at it as a "victory" at all. I havent posted my "opinon", Ive posted my EXPEIRENCE with TiVo and 3 different MSO's. The FACT is that I happened to share the same problems the OP and THOUSANDS of others here.

My "OPINION" is the Premeire is a bug ridden POS that was rushed out the door half baked and 5 years later is not much better than Beta ready.

Look at me as someone that posts facts without getting emotional about their "investment" cause we both know I'm not the only one that had/has issues with the Premiere.

72,000 subs (and counting) in a years time didn't walk away from their TiVo's because they were working "flawlessly"

72,000 subs (and counting) in a years time didn't walk away from their TiVo's because they were working "flawlessly"

And that's a FACT not OPINION.

There is a lot of assumption there. There are two other reasons TiVo is losing subscribers...

1) A LOT of those subscribers are DirecTV users. TiVo never disclosed specifics but based on their financials people were able to calculate that at one point something like 2/3 of their reported subscribers were DirecTV users. Those people have been jumping ship in droves since the DirecTiVo was discontinued and DirecTV started moving all their channels to MPEG-4 encoding. There is a new DirecTiVo out now, but it's still hard to get and provides no real benefit over DirecTVs own option.

2) Consolidation. With the release of the 4 tuner unit, multi-room streaming and the Mini, TiVo users don't need as many boxes as they once did. So a lot of TiVo users who use to have 3-4 units now only have 1-2. That's reflected in those numbers as well.

As for your comment about thousands of complaints on these forums... You have to remember that most people seek out forums for help or to complain about an issue. Very few seek out a forum to praise a product and say "everything is working great". So negative comments always outweigh positive on forums like this.

Those sorts of things are TiVo issues, at least most of the time. The one exception is the Tuning Adapter. TiVo has to stay in constant communication with the TA via USB. If it locks up or becomes sluggish then it can, by proxy, lock up the TiVo or make the TiVo sluggish. Most of the time the companies that manufacture these TAs know about the issues and create firmware patches to fix them, but a lot of the MSOs choose not to upgrade the firmware of the boxes they have in the field. Either because they want to hinder the experience or they simply don't care. And this particular problem is not specific to TiVo. There are a ton of HTPC users with Ceton cards that have the exact same issues when connected to a TA.

If you want to fall in line and pay the cable company $20/mo for their ****ty DVR that you can't upgrade, then go ahead. But the FCC has mandated that they support 3rd party solutions via CableCARDs and some of them, not all, are purposely trying to hinder that experience. TWC was even fined once for making their hindrance of CableCARDs so blatantly obvious. So acting like they're innocent and it's all the technology's fault is just ignorant.

I didn't have a TA with Cablevision, FIOS and still had lookups, reboots, sluggishness, audio drop outs, missing channels, missed recordings etc.

I give you the fact that TA seem to add to the problems but I don't see it as the common denominator.

Besides, TiVo should be able to tweak their software to accomodate TA's if thats the problem. They've had 5 years to fix it. IMO like another poster mentioned, neither TiVo nor the MSO's care about the stand alone subs any more. They'll just keep pointing fingers at each other until the last of the die hards and geeks throw in the white towel with the other 72,000 subs that walked away this year.

As far as "falling in love with my ****ty DVR" all I'll say is I got 2 Genies that haven't had ONE hiccup, are lightning fast, cost me NOTHING but a promise to stay with DTV'S for another 2 years and oh yea, cost me $12 a month ($6 each).

Oh, and did I mention they were delivered and installed for free with a simple phone call? How about the fact that if one of them breaks or becomes obsolete in two years I get to hand them back with nothing but by monthly service fee lost?

Just curious, how much would TiVos 10 tuner' 4 TB, whole home setup run me after 2 years?

There is a lot of assumption there. There are two other reasons TiVo is losing subscribers...

1) A LOT of those subscribers are DirecTV users. TiVo never disclosed specifics but based on their financials people were able to calculate that at one point something like 2/3 of their reported subscribers were DirecTV users. Those people have been jumping ship in droves since the DirecTiVo was discontinued and DirecTV started moving all their channels to MPEG-4 encoding. There is a new DirecTiVo out now, but it's still hard to get and provides no real benefit over DirecTVs own option.

2) Consolidation. With the release of the 4 tuner unit, multi-room streaming and the Mini, TiVo users don't need as many boxes as they once did. So a lot of TiVo users who use to have 3-4 units now only have 1-2. That's reflected in those numbers as well.

As for your comment about thousands of complaints on these forums... You have to remember that most people seek out forums for help or to complain about an issue. Very few seek out a forum to praise a product and say "everything is working great". So negative comments always outweigh positive on forums like this.

I really don't want to get into a peeing match with you. I agree with you 1000% that most people won't go out of their way to praise a product as fast as they'll go to trash it, but as far as the Premeire goes I personally know 4 people I recommended it to that never complained here, only to ME!

I understand you guys love your TiVos, but I just don't understand the bunker "us against them" mentality.

You guys are loyal to a fault!

As far as subs go, -72,000 a year is -72,000 a year. Bottom line is their are less standalone subs than last year and I don't see that trend reversing.

Not with the products they have now and not when 90% of the people that DVRs only want a glorified VCR they can get delivered and installed for free with a simple phone call.

I didn't have a TA with Cablevision, FIOS and still had lookups, reboots, sluggishness, audio drop outs, missing channels, missed recordings etc.

And I've never really had any of those problems other then the slugishness, which I'll give you is because the Premiere hardware is just too damn slow. The only time I ever missed recordings or had audio dropouts is because the stupid TA locked up or because the cable signal dropped out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Norma Stitz

Besides, TiVo should be able to tweak their software to accomodate TA's if thats the problem. They've had 5 years to fix it. IMO like another poster mentioned, neither TiVo nor the MSO's care about the stand alone subs any more. They'll just keep pointing fingers at each other until the last of the die hards and geeks throw in the white towel with the other 72,000 subs that walked away this year.

While they were in the process of suing Dish TiVo did basically nothing. So for 3 years we saw almost no progress made on the Premiere. Even I was thinking about jumping ship at that point. But in the last year and a half they have really started to innovating again and I'm hopeful about their future offerings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Norma Stitz

Just curious, how much would TiVos 10 tuner' 4 TB, whole home setup run me after 2 years?

TiVo will be releasing a 6 tuner unit this fall. We'll have to see what it costs, but I doubt that you'd be able to get two for a net of $12/mo. DirecTV seems to be giving you a hell of a deal there. But most cable companies charge $15-$20/mo for a 2 tuner DVR, so TiVo's cost is easier to swallow when compared to that.

I long ago stopped recommend TiVo to anyone other than OTA only people as I have no desire to provide free support. That is why in my opinion Stand Alone TiVos are and will remain a niche product and TiVo's best hope is partnering with MSOs.

What I find funny is we really don't hear much from people who rent TiVo DVRs from MSOs. After all they are the same TiVo DVRS that some people have so many issues when they buy them.

The "free support" to friends is a problem so I don't recommend TiVo anymore, Nobody I know (with TiVos) even knows this forum exists, and you have a good point about the MSO supplied TiVo not being a problem, at least to the users.
Comcast has made cable card activation very easy for 90% of instillations with their special cable card phone number, but about 10% require a service call, as the tech can call another Comcast person that can clear your cable card so that the TiVo itself thinks you have removed the card from your TiVo, then re-program the card and all works.

And I've never really had any of those problems other then the slugishness, which I'll give you is because the Premiere hardware is just too damn slow. The only time I ever missed recordings or had audio dropouts is because the stupid TA locked up or because the cable signal dropped out.

While they were in the process of suing Dish TiVo did basically nothing. So for 3 years we saw almost no progress made on the Premiere. Even I was thinking about jumping ship at that point. But in the last year and a half they have really started to innovating again and I'm hopeful about their future offerings.

TiVo will be releasing a 6 tuner unit this fall. We'll have to see what it costs, but I doubt that you'd be able to get two for a net of $12/mo. DirecTV seems to be giving you a hell of a deal there. But most cable companies charge $15-$20/mo for a 2 tuner DVR, so TiVo's cost is easier to swallow when compared to that.

I was tempted to bring up the fact that TiVo seems to spend more money on lawsuits than improving their products, but that subject is better suited to a financial site although Id like your opinion....

If Dish, Verizon, AT&T and everyone else TiVo has successfully sued pay TiVo for their "technology"' why would they sabotage you?

As far as my deal with DTV, yes, I got a sweet deal. I admit that not everyone will get that deal, but my point is you can call and TRY! They have other revenue streams to draw from, they don't need rely on their DVR fee and have plenty of wiggle room.

TiVo? Not so much.

Bottom line is MSO's are going all out for subs and if you don't ask you won't get. They can see the writing on the wall. Eventually the DVR will go the way of the VCR with cloud based recording, video on demand, streaming, Hulu, Roku, Netflix, etc....

There are other things to consider here as well... The money is relatively insignificant to me. $12/mo vs $50/mo, wont make a dent in my finances one way or the other. I spend more then that on a trip to the movies, and I do that 3-5 times a month.

I like TiVo! I'm familiar with it, I like the extra features it offers, and I have very few issues with it. To me that's worth paying for. If I was financially strapped or had consistent problems with it then I might consider changing. But as it is now I enjoy being a TiVo customer and I'm willing to pay for it.

There are other things to consider here as well... The money is relatively insignificant to me. $12/mo vs $50/mo, wont make a dent in my finances one way or the other. I spend more then that on a trip to the movies, and I do that 3-5 times a month.

I like TiVo! I'm familiar with it, I like the extra features it offers, and I have very few issues with it. To me that's worth paying for. If I was financially strapped or had consistent problems with it then I might consider changing. But as it is now I enjoy being a TiVo customer and I'm willing to pay for it.

Rock on Bro! Ive got no right to tell you how to spend your money.

My wife complains that I spend too much money on golf equipment. To each his own, right! Whatever makes you happy.