@Plen - You stated “As a suggestion – research the sponsorship scandal a little better. Find out how the Canadian press made use of FIPPA to gain access to info (they would not be able to do that in SA, heck your parliament can’t even get the draft reports on the military analysis – how the hell would the press get it?).” You are so misinformed it is scary, SA has the Promotion of Access to Information Act, (PAIA), you refer to the standoff between Defence Minister Lindiwe Sisulu and SCOPA (Standing Committee on Public Accounts), most governments, politicians and officials at some point do not want to provide access to information they believe to be to sensitive and could be a threat to national security. Every government on the planet has had these moments how one deals with it of cause is what needs to be seen. SCOPA has many other avenues which it is now following, going to the head of government business Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe is a route the SCOPA Chair Mr MS Booi (ANC MP) is already persuing, the last resort is the courts. There is enough case law in Canada’s British Columbia Court of Appeal, Supreme Court of Canada and Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench etc to suggest that this occurs quite frequently in Canada as well.

Most governments require that in the case of national security, even FIPPA has such exemptions seen in the statement by Environmental Law and Litigation which shows the difficulty it has experienced with FIPPA “Freedom of information (FOI) laws are important, in that they are supposed to provide citizens with access to information that is under the control of government institutions. However, the FOI request process is cumbersome and confusing, and many requests are rejected with little or no explanation.” With the statement many requests rejected emphasised this seems to belie your suggestion of Canadian government transparency.

I was not referring to my studies but independent non government organisations such as the Institute of Security Studies (ISS) and the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) etc.. Tranparency International uses anecdotal evidence and does not rely on experts based in countries they report on. Again however maybe this is way over your head as I see you can’t get your head around it.

You stated “SA’s governance is transparent and Canada is not? You have to be kidding me. You are seriousy living in a field of dreams.” It seems that you are the one living in a field of dreams as you have fallen for your governments propaganda. Studies by independent institutions and Universities based in Canada. You must be one of those lunatic fringe blokes who see conspiracy theories of those who dare to question your squeeky clean uncorrupted government, you living in a fools paradise. Lets hope there are not allot of Canadian like you or your country will surely become the 51st state in the US.

You stated “Good governance stems from making statements and running to such a perfect level that those “sensation chasing tabloids” have very little say. Then you know that good governance is in play.” which made me think there is still hope for Canada but then you say “And that is how I know I can trust my leaders - becase the newspapers have not told me otherwise.”Lunatic fringe if ever I heard it. I have posted a few comments of corruption being indemic in Canada, while there are loads more about police corruption freely available if you were to open your eyes. You are a perfect example of a government sycophant. Trust your government, they can’t even control your corrupt police.

I like your statement, ….” your myopic and biased state of mind regarding Canada and proves once more that your views can not be relied upon." Yet the fact that Transparency international ranks Canada 8th is blown aside by the fact that an organization whose sole job is to evaluate this specific topic employing the best in the field is brushed aside by , “…as they mostly depend on newspaper clippings to make judgements and not independent gathered empirical evidence collected by properly trained researchers based in the countries being reviewed.”

But your independent studies are better than this entire organization…. Please give me a break.

SA’s governance is transparent and Canada is not? You have to be kidding me. You are seriousy living in a field of dreams. As for Newspapers being “..sensation chasing tabloids driven by profit than serious publications…” you are right …. But get use to it that is the same all over the modern world. Good governance stems from making statements and running to such a perfect level that those “sensation chasing tabloids” have very little say. Then you know that good governance is in play. And that is how I know I can trust my leaders - becase the newspapers have not told me otherwise.

As a suggestion – research the sponsorship scandal a little better. Find out how the Canadian press made use of FIPPA to gain access to info (they would not be able to do that in SA, heck your parliament can’t even get the draft reports on the military analysis – how the hell would the press get it?). Go onto research how the press sensationalised the whole scandal looking for ‘corruption' and had to do retractions as there was no corruption only stupid governance. But again – I stress – the stupidity of a few members of parliament saw the entire government fall. It would never have happened if Canada did not have the FIPPA laws.

As for IMF and World Bank – you are using the old simplistic evaluation of the top governance of the organization. The fact that the lower levels run independent is obviously too complicated for your understanding – but as a suggestion research how Paul Wolfowitz attempted to influence the World Bank and found himself to be a lame duck. Then you may understand the inner workings of the World Bank.

On the issue of Banks – yes you never stated that Canada had no regulation but you did state, “that Canada was responsible for the economic crisis” This is in reference to the Banks buying and selling sub-prime loans – which is totally untrue. Canada is not culpable for any economic crisis, did not get involved in those loans and any sub-prime affect in the SA banking sector is because SA Banks circumvented the existing laws and got themselves burnt. But your ongoing insistence that Canada had anything to do with it is lving in a field of dreams. The SA Banks lost a tremendous amount of money which affected their local operations. Okay so I read your article and it is a clear case of sensationalism (as you had even stated). There are foreclosures going on but not related to any form of sub-prime sales that affect LIBOR. Here is some news for you – research “CHMC”. Here you find out that the Government runs the mortgage insurance directly (it's not even private). Further you will learn that any loans with equity below 25% must go through CHMC. CHMC in turn as a government body will decide if the loan application is affordable. The article states, “…About half of those affected received mortgages they couldn't really afford from lenders … “ I think you (and many readers) may mis-interpreted this article to imply that sub-prime lenders poor individuals conned into taking loans they cannot afford. Any Canadian would know there is something rotten in this statement. It probably refers to investment buyers who took loans (outside of CHMC) and got burnt.

Again study CHMC and you will see that this is simply bull. I have a sneaky feeling you only read what suits and justifies your philosophical bend.

I did make a clear statement that BEE was separate from Affirmative action. BEE appears to have its roots from Malaysia but Affirmative action had other roots involving CIDA. Anything else is a red herring.

Holy cow – your statement, “….most so-called coloured are racists,….” Wow what a statement. I find it difficult to believe I just read that statement. Do you realise what you have just said? Do you not see the prejudice in that statement?

I think it has become clear that this conversation must end – I am definitely speaking with someone who is part of the “lunatic fringe”.

@Plen – referring to my comment (Aug 13th 2010 12:08 GMT), I stated “SA’s affirmative action and Employment equity policies, these included among others but not restricted to CIDA, the Swedish International Development Co-operation Agency (SIDA) and even the Namibia National Chamber of Commerce and Industry, played a role as well as but you would know this as you worked” this is incorrect, while the above applies to Affirmative Action, Employment Equity is a purely South African initiative,..... unless of case you wish to claim to have authored this legislation as well......

First you claim to have done work for a “new set of talks, which I believe were given a name COSAG were created. My role was with regards to land ownership rights and the implementation of a subsidy scheme.” And then you go very quiet on this issue when it is brought to your attention that Cosag (Concerned South Africans Group), was not a new set of talks, it was a periphery group made up of strange bedfellows such as white conservative extremists and apartheid era black homeland leaders, whose power bases were eroding and who wished to scupper the negotiations at CODESA 2?

First you claim to have done work for a “new set of talks, which I believe were given a name COSAG were created. My role was with regards to land ownership rights and the implementation of a subsidy scheme.” And then you go very quite on this issue when it is brought to your attention that Cosag (Concerned South Africans Group), was not a new set of talks, it was a periphery group made up of a were a strange bedfellows of white conservative extremists and apartheid era black homeland leaders, whose power bases were eroding and thus wished to scupper the negotiations at CODESA 2?

Now you worked for CIDA (Canadian International Development Agency) as well, if indeed (and I treat this with great scepticism) you were involved with CIDA, you would know the difference between Affirmative Action and Employment Equity and not confuse Employment Equity with BEE. While you had no idea of the origins of SA’s constitution. By the way it was a broad church that had input into SA’s affirmative action and Employment equity policies, these included among others but not restricted to CIDA, the Swedish International Development Co-operation Agency (SIDA) and even the Namibia National Chamber of Commerce and Industry, played a role as well as but you would know this as you worked

You state “I love this statement, “…without those dangling a carrot or refusing to bribe officials corruption could not take place.” We have just found one of the fundamental differences in our perceptions of what we trust and expect from our politicians. I have faith that my politicians will not be tempted into dangled carrots and stand to make the right judgments. You obviously don’t” - Yet corruption is rife in Canada according to independent researchers and university studies I have previously quoted.

You are however correct I don't trust your politicians to make correct judgements. Instead of rushing into a war in Afghanistan they should have used diplomacy to solve their problems as Nelson Mandela suggested. But no you craved blood and wanted revenge. today Afghanistan and Iraq is a mess, well a bigger mess than you found it in while Osama Bin Laden has not been found.

While I agree completely with the stance that countries should not impugn on the sovereignty of foreign countries. Where corruption by SA companies are perpetrated in foreign countries, and SA authorities become aware of this, not only does SA offer this information to foreign authorities where the crime/ corruption has taken place, it actually offers training on how to track such illegal activities.

This has exactly been done by SA for tax havens who having recently signed tax information exchange co-operation agreements with SA and the US, but do not have the expertise to track the funds.

Another example is the case of SASOL which was involved in antitrust activities in Europe. A fine was imposed by the EU while SA authorities tipped off and co-operated completely with the European commission (EU’s antitrust authority). While SA followed up with its own investigation into antitrust activities by SASOL.

SA’s diplomacy in this regards seems to be of a greater and more humble style than Canada which shows a cowboy arrogant attitude which seems to indicate "we will sort them out" if you need our help or not.

@Plen –You state “In fact the awards were given to the DA by ANC politicians” The awards are given on the basis of surveys, nothing else and has shown the DA is extremely good at doctoring reports. Regarding who rules who, I have previously stated that most so-called coloured are racists, while they are the main inhabitants of these areas. The DA has consistently, starting with its “fight black” campaign in 1999 (after the DP merged with the NNP to form the DA) played the divide and rule strategy, perfected by the Nazi inspired apartheid regime most of whose members now belong to the DA, to drive a wedge between black south Africans and so called coloured south Africans. Due to migration more and more black South Africans are seeking work in Johannesburg, the Western Cape and to a lesser extent in Durban. Due to this the Western Cape demographics have changed dramatically since the fall of apartheid where you find the second highest demographic group being black South Africans. DA councillors have been very successful in stoking fears of so-called coloured South Africans about employment and housing. “Die Swart Gevaar” meaning “the black danger” is a another trick the DA learnt from the Nazi’s in the NNP which are now members of the DA. Under the DA’s rule Cape Town has been declared the most racist city in South Africa by independent researchers Sabie Surtee and Martin Hal. Of cause true to form The DA has won those municipalities due to the fear it is stoking in so-called coloured communities which are the largest group in these areas.

The DA claims support of Black South Africans but on closer examination they fudge these figures as well. An example is the claim by Helen Zille of the few Cape Town council wards it has supposedly won in black townships. They do this by moving ward boundaries, another trick learnt from the Nazi inspired apartheid regime. Previously the ward was an ANC ward but what the DA did was move the ward to split and weaken the ANC vote. Heideveld a so-called coloured community racked with drugs and unemployment with a large number of backyard dwellers (people waiting for houses) were linked with a small part of Gugulethu, a black South African township. Gugulethu residents of the ward voted overwhelmingly for the ANC while heideveld residents were told by DA councillors that they will not get houses if they voted for the ANC, they thus voted for the DA. This gave the DA a landslide victory in that ward and proclaimed that they are taking wards away from the ANC, yet they did not receive one vote in the Gugulethu side of the ward. The same tactic was used in Mitchells Plain (so called coloured area)and Khayelitsha (Black South Africans). And again in Athone (so called coloured area) and Langa (Black South Africans). Thus there is no clear indication but simply DA smoke and mirrors and NNP style fear mongering. You claim to have visited the townships, while your statements make that extremely hard to believe, if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt visiting a township and actually staying in a township as I have while being constantly involved in the upliftment of those communities is a far cry from “poverty tourism” you’ve embarked on. Again unless you can provide tangible evidence your statements carry no weight whatsoever.

You stated “so you acknowledge that you spoke out of turn. As for the SA Banks – yes I was referring to Old Mutual and Investec… and Standard Bank.” I never stated that Canada never had no regulation, I did quite clearly state that it had stricter regulation than the US, which considering that the US had almost none is not something to crow about. Your claim “South African Banks on the other hand did get involved and South Africa did a good job of getting itself into the mess.” (Comment Aug 11th 2010 3:51 GMT) implies that SA regulation was not up to scratch when this is patently not true. as shown by Hillary Clintons acknowledgement that the US could learn from SA. Old Mutual may I add is not a traditional bank, its core business is Life Insurance and as an add on is involved in Asset Management and banking in SA mostly, while Standard Bank was indirectly affected simply because of its office in London. SA's financial institutions were affected by the UK's poor regulatory framework while SA banks based in SA, and Old Mutual and Standard Bank’s local divisions were saved by the strict regulations in place in SA.

You state - “There was no lending practices causing pain in Canada” once a again you repeat false statements from the Canadian government, repetition does not make an argument especially if this is not backed up by empirical evidence collected by independent researchers. Even though I’m not a great fan of using newspapers as sources of information due to their unreliability and profit driven sensationalist tendencies, I did quote an article by the Globe and Mail which quoted research done by “two private companies that specialize in tracking foreclosure proceedings” however a specialist property news service, corroborates that Canada is in deed involved in the greed that was the subprime crisis. In fact Canada's involvement directly in subprime has been revealed, by Kap Hiroti of Foreclosurelist.ca , a company that tracks proceedings and links sellers with buyers.

@Plen – oh dear you just all over the place, Canada has rampant corruption especially in its Police service. And if Canada does not do anything about it will remain in the shadow of the US, constantly feeding from the crumbs off its floor. I have never stated that corruption does not exist in SA, it has been my experience and study (Auditing, Law and Quantitative Mathematics & Statistics) that all countries have more corruption than they make out. I have been involved in the fight against crime in SA for a number of years now and have studied many countries crime busting methods, and thus also the crimes that are committed. Canada I can assure you has rampant corruption. That you do not believe independent researchers who are leaders in their fields of study and are schooled in Good Governance and Government Policy formulation and implementation says more about your myopic and biased state of mind regarding Canada and proves once more that your views can not be relied upon.

Your state “You talk about corruption in Canada and somehow make it sound like it is “rampant”. My personal belief is that any Canadian on the street would probably laugh at the idea. Canadians are by culture very accusing of themselves. The slightest issue is made into a storm which is what you read in the Canadian press. We have the “odd” case that comes up and various experts making it out to be an overly serious issue – which it is – and in turn it is kept in check. South African newspapers on the other hand are so intensely filled with outrageous corruption articles that it is even mind boggling that anyone could compare the two.” ----
- As a rule I do not depend on newspapers to formulate an opinion, reporters report the news and in most cases stretch the truth. While the difference between SA and Canada is that South Africa is a transparent country when it comes to government corruption and overall crime. My research has shown that countries like the US, Canada, UK and Australia stats do not add up to independent sources and studies. In SA the media have access to information that most countries in the world would not allow access to or reporters are so embedded with government that they don’t report negatively. SA media houses have consolidated to such an extent over the years that they have become more like sensation chasing tabloids driven by profit than serious publications. Retractions are common place and occur more frequently than ever before, but are hidden away in printed publications and almost never make it to the online news version and when they do only publish the retraction online for a day then remove the story and the retraction. While most readers do not see the retraction and are still left with a poor impression.

I made an error in linking Transparency international to governments, this was not intended. I have however given my reasons for not being interested in Transparency International as in my experience the data they use is not accurate as they mostly depend on newspaper clippings to make judgements and not independent gathered empirical evidence collected by properly trained researchers based in the countries being reviewed.

I meant only to link the World Bank and IMF to the US and EU as it is well known that they are far from independent institutions as the US and EU can nominate to both institutions respectively. The US is the World Banks biggest shareholder, nominates the President of the Bank. The World Bank and the IMF have adopted a weighted system of voting. A quota is then assigned, equivalent to the country's subscription and determines its voting power in the Bank and the Fund. While both the bank and the fund will never upset its largest shareholders. The IMF has actually recognised the impact voting rights have on governance and is looking at improving governance, The World Bank is simply not interested as the US is the World Bank.

Actually – as irony would have it, the South African Government took on the services of CIDA to develop the Affirmative action plan. CIDA did look at Malaysia and I do believe that some of the BEE policies have their origin in Malaysia (but BEE is quite different to affirmative action). SA basically has a carbon copy of Canada’s affirmative action plan with specific requirements altered to the South African condition. I should know this because I worked with CIDA on this program and on the program for implementing local music content on national radio and TV.

You talk about corruption in Canada and some how make it sound like it is “rampant”. My personal belief is that any Canadian on the street would probably laugh at the idea. Canadians are by culture very accusing of themselves. The slightest issue is made into a storm which is what you read in the Canadian press. We have the “odd” case that comes up and various experts making it out to be an overly serious issue – which it is – and in turn it is kept in check. South African newspapers on the other hand are so intensely filled with outrageous corruption articles that it is even mind boggling that anyone could compare the two. But someone does – Transparency International and the World Bank. You brush these organizations aside as being the spin doctors of the USA and the EU – which shows your state of mind. The fact that these organizations have tremendous checks and balances are run independently and are continuously scrutinized is obviously beyond you. But just to clarify another falsehood “Transparency International” is not run by the EU, US heck not even the UK, Australia, Canada or any other country, government or political group, etc, etc – check them out.

There is an old adage in economics, “what happens to the individual does not necessarily happen to the masses.” This adage has to do with how some individuals view something – create an obvious opinion but statistics draw another picture. This appears to be the case with your evaluation of the Cape. I too have been to the townships in the Cape and the Townships in other areas. The situation by most standards is disgraceful but the solution is going to take a lot of time. But when I look at the stats put forward and read your story a few facts stand out that show flaws to your theory. Firstly you make reference to a DA analysis of Cape Town, which is a red herring – the awards received were not created by the DA. In fact the awards were given to the DA by ANC politicians (a clear acknowledgement in my mind). I don’t know the inner workings of the evaluation of the best municipalities but I do know that many of those municipalities were run by the ANC and lost to the DA. That is a clear indication that those people prefer to be governed by the DA. The majority of those people are by far and away non-white. So to clarify this again – non-white people prefer to be govern by the DA after having been govern by the ANC. There seems to be a striking link between the DA’s governance practices and them being voted into governance. Trying to bring in other accounts or side track the issue is a red herring.

Sorry did I just read that right, “Canada indeed has stricter lending practices than the US?” so you acknowledge that you spoke out of turn. As for the SA Banks – yes I was referring to Old Mutual and Investec… and Standard Bank. Yet you slip in “…SA promulgated the National Credit Act which stopped lending practices that is causing so much pain in the US, Canada , UK…” There was no lending practices causing pain in Canada (can you not even see the irony on your own words). The impact to the Canadian economy is from the USA – just as a side note the US-Canada trade is the biggest bi-lateral trade in the world. As the US economy got hit so did Canada’s economy. But to accuse Canada of being part of the reason for the sub-prime is flawed and trying to back peddle with stats of how Canada was harmed is a red herring.
I love this statement, “…without those dangling a carrot or refusing to bribe officials corruption could not take place.” We have just found one of the fundamental differences in our perceptions of what we trust and expect from our politicians. I have faith that my politicians will not be tempted into dangled carrots and stand to make the right judgments. You obviously don’t . I seriously recommend you start demanding more accountability from your politicians. It appears the non-whites in the Western Cape region are already doing so.

Your statement on the SA’s involvement in foreign countries is very intriguing – it is the standard line that most countries follow – yet you posted how the “Canadians” were supposedly bribing Bangladeshi officials as a negative towards “Canada” and the same post shows how the RCMP was not sitting around but actively investigating. Now that a clear sign of accountability from a government. The last part of your paragraph states how the SA government does not assist unless it is requested which is okay, unless of course the SA company is doing a dirty with the Angolan government and of course the Angolan government is not going to ask for assistance. In other words that is not good enough, I would demand more accountability from my government when it comes possible corruption by Canadian companies abroad.

Canada indeed has stricter lending practices than the US, however SA has even stricter rules while exchange Controls have stopped SA Bank's local divisions from getting involved in the subprime crisis. The only company that was badly affected by the crisis was Old Mutual and to a lesser extent Investec due to their listening on the LSE and standard Bank to a far lesser degree than the other two due to its office in London. The local divisions had absolutely no exposure to the sub prime. http://www.tradeinvestsa.co.za/news/652984.htm

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton stated at the height of the financial crisis "Your banks are free of the bad loans that the US has had to deal with. We can learn a lot from your example," she told a Business Unity South Africa function on Friday." http://www.southafrica.info/news/business/806983.htm

A few months before sub-prime came into affect SA promulgated the National Credit Act which stopped lending practices that is causing so much pain in the US, Canada , UK and EU today However you contention that Canada has not itself been affected by sub prime is disproved by the Globe & Mail investigation into more than 10,000 foreclosure proceedings has uncovered a burgeoning subprime mortgage problem that many, including your Prime Minister Stephen Harper, have insisted does not exist in Canada. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/article317737.ece

You state “Companies are in for profit where as political representatives, represent their voters and the public” this is an extremely naive statement to make as without those dangling a carrot or refusing to bribe officials corruption could not take place.

SA does not get involved in the internal proceedings in a foreign country unless the foreign country actually request assistance. SA has always provided information where requested. SA is not exposed to Angola that is why President Zuma has recently paid Angola a state visit, where co-operation agreements in tracking trade and allowing SA companies to operate in Angola while having a legal recourse via Angolan authorities for any redress. SA deals with corruption via the Department of International Affairs which via diplomatic overtures deal assist trade partners to curb corruption. Thus SA assists it doe not do the job for another country unless this is requested.

Regarding your statement “Sorry but one glance, it is clear the DA are looking after the non-white communities until you can give hard proof otherwise”. The operative word is “glance” I do not glance I live and travel in the Western Cape and SA consistently, I don’t glance I know, Administratively yes, ie the DA are good paper pushers, but actual delivery of services, there is no tangible proof on the ground I can personally attest to this. I pay little attention to these awards as they never show the true picture, I want to see tangible results and unless you can show me tangible results the weight Capetonians can attach to your statements are zero. A case in point is the City of Cape Town, the DA run city gave itself top marks for service delivery based on an election geared telephone survey in Cape town, and the other municipalities they run. On closer examination the survey in Cape Town covered 3000 people and did not take into account densification. Thus the same amount of community members in each area regardless of density were interviewed. Due to apartheid planning there are more white South African neighbourhoods than previously disadvantaged townships, with the total combined community living in white neighbourhoods far less than that in the more densely populated previously disadvantaged communities. The report merely mentioned that communities in Mitchells Plain, Khayelitsha and other previously disadvantaged areas were not happy with services, but the majority of respondents (who were from white areas) gave the city top marks. This strategy was repeated in the other DA areas. So the DA are well adept at cooking the books.

Thus for your statements to be taken seriously you need to show us the tangible results not what the DA says it has done or doctored to make it look good. As while the DA provides services in the white areas they do not deliver the same quality service in previously disadvantaged areas. This is an undisputable fact which can be easily seen on the ground. No amount of fancy word play by the DA can change that.

As for investors they not what South Africans on the ground look at for measurement as actually service delivery, while the FDI in the DA run areas you mention is extremely poor so that is a inconsequential as in South Africa’s case investment seems to follow ANC run cities such as Johannesburg and Durban. Cape town in fact lags way behind these two cities.

Your statement “what would be the indicator that the past has been corrected?” Well that is simply the past will be corrected when victims of apartheid have been empowered by the perpetrators or those who gained from Apartheid, when transformation actually takes place and window dressing is not paraded as an achievement. When white South African businesses stop paying lip service to Affirmative Action and Employment Equity, when White South Africans stop playing the victim, regarding Affirmative Action and Employment Equity when it hardly affects them. Most importantly when representation in different spheres of business ownership, work and farming show a more accurate representation of SA demographics then the past will have been corrected.

COSAG??, you mean Concerned South Africans Group, this was not a new set of talks, it was a periphery group made up of white conservatives and black homeland leaders, whose power bases were eroding. CODESA 2 did not deadlock, in fact a draft constitution published on July 26, 1993, contained concessions to all sides-with regional legislatures, equal voting rights regardless of race, and a bicameral legislature. Negotiators went on to establish a Transitional Executive Council (TEC), a multiracial body that would share executive responsibilities with President de Klerk during election preparations. Cosag boycotted the TEC and formed the Freedom Alliance to demand equal status with the government and the ANC. Sensing new momentum, however, the government cracked down on right-wing violence and tried to reason with white extremistsin Cosag, without slowing the pace of election preparations.

It is a pity that you have such a blinkered view of the bad state of corruption in Canada especially in your police force, I have posted 3 links not one as you mention. One being the independent research paper Bribery & Corruption by Dr Phillip Ofume, Ph.D. (Chair, National & International Policy Research Council & Head, Law Reform and Litigation and Security Policy Council;), Dr. Godson Etiebet, Ph.D. (Researcher, (Policy/Good Government) National and International
Policy Research Council Coordinator, Europe Section, Switzerland) and Dr. Kris Kifindi Bunkheti, Ph.D. (Researcher (Language/Culture), National and International Policy Research Council York University (Department of History) Toronto, Ontario Canada (p)

I will post it again;
“In Canada, in addition to the outrage of bribery and corruption in the
police system also particularly, in the law courts, colour, race,
ethnicity and nationality stand as the basis to offset or downside the
rule of law, justice and human rights.
In Canada and Australia, the police and law courts are made up of over
99.8% white against the strength and weight of the prevailing
multicultural/racial structure of the country. The police and the law
courts work as organized cartel to distort, forge and frame up
evidence and statement against non-white to secure conviction against
them.”http://groups.google.com/group/soc.org.nonprofit/browse_thread/thread/43...

Note Dr Kris Bunkheti party to the research paper is Canadian based at York University (Department of History) Toronto.

Papers by the World Bank IMF and Transparency International are highly questionable, these institutions are not independent and are controlled by the US and EU where political agenda are always at play. Making the US, UK and it allies look good, via so-called international institutions, is a propaganda tool used since before, but perfected under Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.

It is common knowledge that Canadians and US citizens don’t know much about the world and even less about their governments involvement in corruption. However it is strange that you not aware of widespread accusations of corruption in the Canadian police dating back from the late 1990’s to present, which have made world headline news. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/torontopolice/

The University of Wollongong has done excellent work on corruption in Canada which refutes your statement, I suggest you get hold of these from the University William De Maria had a research paper on it in about 1995/ 1996 already if memory serves me correctly.

Lastly your statement about balancing the evils of apartheid and creating a more just society is indeed very honourable. I actually agree with the affirmative action plan, you do know that the program was developed here in Canada and we helped implement it in South Africa. My point though is about when to draw the line – what would be the indicator that the past has been corrected?

SA is a truly complex country and economically speaking it may be the power house of Africa but it has a very small economy. Trying balance an economy that small is difficult at best and the work of Trevor Manual was honoured by our past Prime Minister who used to be a Finance Minister himself. However, if you can imagine SA as a private run hospital, part of the clientele are the main financial contributors who need a service and although are willing to subsidise the majority they do want their needs to be attended to. The majority definitely need service and cannot be turned away. How does the manager of the hospital attend to both knowing that if he loses his paying clientele he will be less able to give appropriate care to the majority? That is the question I put to you.

As another striking example, look at the history of Russia after the fall of communism. Russia went into a state of flux. When the government clamped down heavily, they implemented draconian tax laws. Within a matter of a few months Russia fell from its position as 12th richest country in the world to somewhere along side Belgium. It was a striking lesson and the government quickly pulled back in a last ditch attempt to save themselves from total collapse. They were too late. Russia has made an attempted comeback but they are a carcass of their former self. SA has not reached that point yet.

@ Khoi San X – just to clarify. I remember clearly the CODESA II ran into a deadlock. A new set of talks, which I believe were given a name COSAG were created. My role was with regards to land ownership rights and the implementation of a subsidy scheme. I even had the opportunity to have a discussion with Joe Slovo.

I’m sorry to say that your term “rampant corruption” when referring to Canadian police force is a stretch of the imagination. You have one case which was brought in by the RCMP against the Edmonton Police in June 2011. But here you actually show something interesting. The RCMP is independent of the Provincial Police and can do this, where as SA’s only true independent police force, the scorpions, were disbanded. And the number of cases they were bringing forward was simply outrageous… or better yet, “rampant”. But how about you take a look at the corruption Index by Transparency International. (Canada is 8th and South Africa has fallen yet another position to 55 just below the corruption ridden ex-Soviet Countries). Take a look at the reality: http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009

If you don’t like “Transparency International” look at the World Bank’s corruption Index. Please feel free to compare South Africa to any of the countries you named. They even have a great coloured map. I am startled that you have a thing against the war in Afghanistan as that is a UN condoned war – it’s a pure war and any connection to corruption within the country would be a red herring.

I am even more taken back that you include Canada on your list of “greed” that “… brought us into this economic mess we in at present.” It shows you have very little understanding of the greater mess. You are obviously pointing towards the sub-prime scandal. As a bit of information Canadian Banks did not participate in Sub-prime mortgages as it is against Canadian Law to by home loans that do not fall in the regulated requirements. Canadian Banks were not affected in any way and played no part in the sub-prime crisis. South African Banks on the other hand did get involved and South Africa did a good job of getting itself into the mess.

You make the statement, “most crime is perpetuated by western countries…” very interesting statement …. Unfortunately niaive. Companies are in for profit where as political representatives, represent their voters and the public. However I do agree that one should go after both the “Bribor” and “Bribee”. As you have so nicely shown the RCMP is actually doing that considering the crime may have been made in a foreign country. That shows a tremendous responsibility on behalf of the Canadian government to go after individual companies even when the law of the actual crime may not apply. What about South Africa’s ability to investigate SA companies behavior in foreign countries, particularly notorious corrupt countries like Angola. Well South Africa’s anti corruption unit has no mandate to investigate abroad. This shows the current state of corruption management in SA.

You make the statement, “ … the dismal state of service delivery by DA controlled areas in previously disadvantaged communities…” please list those communities where the DA is providing a “dismal state of services? I am actually interested. The only thing I have read about DA governance is about their awards for the best run municipalities in SA including:

Theewaterskloof Municipality where the non white population totals 91.28%,
Overstrand Municipality where the non white population totals 66%,
West Coast District Municipality where the non white population totals 80.87%
Midvaal Municipality where the non white population totals 64.7%
and of course Cape Town where the non white population totals 80.7%

Sorry but one glance, it is clear the DA are looking after the non-white communities until you can give hard proof otherwise. I don’t support the DA and am totally open for any other party to show better. It takes a lot of well trained and experience professionals to run a municipality, politics aside the DA appears to be getting this right. Right now, it appears the DA are the best bet for physically running a municipality/Province/etc. You speak of COSATU breaking away, COSATU is still unproven in running a municipality, so until they can prove themselves, the DA stand to be an investor’s choice.

@Regal - we have had preachers of doom like you since 1994, you sound like PW Botha preaching "Swart Gevaar" - "the Blacks are coming" what a load of horse manure. SA is growing economically every year since 1994, which was a record for the country. Jobs were being created until the recession started while our country is one of the first to rebound.

@Plen - Regarding your concern for those who benefited from Apartheid directly or indirectly through their parents; they would not be where they are if not for apartheid. the process or transformation is a painful process but whites lead by Helen Zille who perpetuates the racism of their forefathers will make it only more painful for themselves. The longer they take to transform the longer corrective policies such as Affirmative Action and Employment Equity will take and thus the longer descendants will be affected. Regarding corruption, South Africa's transparency compared to other countries is its worst enemy, (shown in your lack of knowledge of the rampant police corruption in Canada), corruption is something that SA is working on, major arrests have been made in the Home Affairs department, while new technology was introduced which has brought about huge efficiency improvements (something I can attest to having dealt with them recently), so much so that they one of the best performing departments in government. The department of human settlements also one of the departments that were plagued with corruption has made major huge inroads into curbing corruption. A big broom is being used there; Municipalities are being cleaned out as well.

As for minority rights this must not be at the expense of correcting the evils of the past. Corrective action takes precedence. Apartheid was a crime against humanity and until whites come on board to bring about transformation in society (some do but the majority do not) they have no sympathy from the majority. Those who committed the crimes of apartheid and those who benefited from it must be held accountable. Forgiving is one thing but allowing the status quo to continue as if Apartheid never happened would not be tolerated anywhere else in the world and it won't be in SA. Thus the rights of minorities are protected but these rights must not stand in the way of correcting the injustices committed in the name of minorities and which benefit this very same minority till this day.

Your comment "Why bother with Sarkozy, or go back in time with Thatcher – why not use the Prime Minister of Italy" and "But I do find it interesting that your defence of corruption is to name corruption from other countries." is a strange one as you introduced comparing Canada to SA, while I have mentioned Italy?. AS for Canadian Corruption we hear and read enough newspaper articles about Canada, while I also have family over there who went into exile during apartheid. They are elderly now, and crave for home but have kids who are Canadian and see Canada as their home, so they call almost every week, complaining how little Canadians know about the world outside Canada and the US. They visit from every year and always bring the Ottawa Times, The Toronto Times, The Vancouver Sun (I think), A Seattle newspaper.

Police corruption report mentions Canada in particular

“In Canada, in addition to the outrage of bribery and corruption in the
police system also particularly, in the law courts, colour, race,
ethnicity and nationality stand as the basis to offset or downside the
rule of law, justice and human rights.
In Canada and Australia, the police and law courts are made up of over
99.8% white against the strength and weight of the prevailing
multicultural/racial structure of the country. The police and the law
courts work as organized cartel to distort, forge and frame up
evidence and statement against non-white to secure conviction against
them.”http://groups.google.com/group/soc.org.nonprofit/browse_thread/thread/43...

The list can go on and on, about bribery in Canada. Lets not even start with the New York City, and the rest of the US.

The so-called index is transparency international, this same index did not pick up on the illegal war taking place in Iraq, and Canada and the US’s fight in Afghanistan. Lest not talk about the greed that in the US, Canada, Britain etc that brought us into this economic mess we in at present. These are conveniently forgotten when it comes to Transparency internationally.