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I did when I was looking at Bostons and Kawais, and the people who were trying to tell me that Boston's were more like Steinways than Kawais quality-wise (even when I told them I thought both Bostons and Kawais were terrific) were dismissive of Larry. They also didn't like the way their Essex and Christifori lines were dissed by Larry. Other dealers were happy I was taking time to educate myself. Best wishes on your search, and by all means, take your time.

I based my offer to the dealer on Larry's SMP minus an additional 15% (as a starting point) which ended up upsetting him somewhat. Apparently it was a low offer based on market conditions but we got past it and worked out a deal. Its definitely a tool in your toolbox, despite what your dealer may think.

A very important piano dealer in our area has a copy prominently displayed and allows all who visit the store to look at it. I don't think it hurts his bottom line at all. He carries Bechsteins, Bosendoerfers, Faziolis, Mason-Hamlins, Schimmels, Estonias, and even rebuilt and used Steinways and other top brands. When shopping, I have never brought a copy with me, but I have read and re-read it many times and learned a lot. It certainly didn't hurt when I was shopping for my piano.

Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.

Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.

Since Piano Buyer is available free online, very few dealers stock it for sale. The Piano Book, while still available, much of its content is rather dated.

I agree with what you say, however, how do shoppers learn about the books or the fact that they are available online? PB certainly doesn't have the same visibility as "Consumer Reports." I don't think that I'm alone in preferring a printed volume for self-education and research before making a major purchase.

I agree with what you say, however, how do shoppers learn about the books or the fact that they are available online? PB certainly doesn't have the same visibility as "Consumer Reports." I don't think that I'm alone in preferring a printed volume for self-education and research before making a major purchase.

Even though I have no financial interest, far be it from me to discourage anyone from ordering the print edition (at www.pianobuyer.com).

Most shoppers find out about PianoBuyer through organic search results from the major search engines, or right here on the Piano Forum. It is also recommended on the website of many technicians (including the PTG), dealers and teachers.

Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.

Ah, perhaps not.

But nearly six million of them did last year (and that's unique visitors, not "hits" or "page views"). I don't know too many print publications that can claim six million readers :-)

In fact I don't know too many (or any other) online piano sites that can legitimately claim anywhere near as many visitors.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, just pretty proud of what PW has become.

Your original post made it sound like not including a discussion of the quality of the dealer was something missing from the book and this is not the case.

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Quote:

Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.

It may be *reasonable* but not necessary fruitful or productive. 5 different opinions don't exactly make achieving one's own any easier.For those who don't play or are not personally tuned into tone and touch of an instrument, none of it makes much difference.

No approach is guaranteed to be fruitful.

Those who don't play or play only a little or who are not extremely familiar with the different possibilities of tone/touch still want to make an informed decision. They do not want to be dissatisfied later on when they may become more able to evaluate tone and touch. That's why they often ask for help at Piano World or consult the Piano Buyer or those who they think are knowledgeable. The PB in particular offer a degree of objectivity very hard to find in a showroom.

It's absolutely reasonable to do this and it is, in fact, a very good idea to proceed this way.

If it simply means price negotiation (in the U.S.) the book will certainly help as it gives a good initial orientation into the piano market and the pricing structure (or rather the lack of it).

However this is far from what is 'pinao buying' about.

The book will not elp you acquiring or negotiating the paino that is best for you because theis book or any other written or electronic resource lacks indeed:

Quote:

A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it.

Nor does it things like the quality of the business one happens to be dealing with.

And

Quote:

These intangibles are sometimes as much or even more important the the product itself.

, yes indeed.

It has been quite a while I posted my adagio here on this forum:

'the biggest challenge in the whole buying process is putting toghether a shortlist of brands and dealers you would like to do business with because of whet they stand for'

E.g. there are a few brands I would not buy because of the questionable ethics and there are dealer I would never buy from whatever brand they might represent.

Should there ever be a publication that

Quote:

a discussion of the quality of the dealer

I would be the first one to buy a copy. However I am afraid there will never be such a resource of information.Yhis is something you will have to find out for yourself - unfortunately sometimes experience yourself.

the book was most helpful in my search for a used piano.I learned about construction and wide variety of mfg.. No need to take it to the dealer but it served as a basis for my evaluation check list and helped narrow the brands I wanted to play. Thank you Mr Fine and consultants.!

frog97
Full Member
Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 62
Loc: West side of the Globe

I went home for lunch and my wife gave me the mail, the PW books I ordered where there. I can’t wait to dive into them and start reading, I bought on old hard copy and a new supplement to the book for 2012.

When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept

That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: schwammerl

Quote:

When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept

That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept

That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

If you understand in full the wants, needs, and capacities of all players in the bargaining process, you can work towards a deal that leaves everyone better off than they would be with no deal.

When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept

That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

I am sure it is something with which you are intrinsically familiar, even if you never bothered to put a "name" to it.

The idea is pretty simple. With a piano:

Bargaining: You are considering charging me "X". I want to pay a lesser value "Y". We work until we either find middle ground or we do not. In the end, what the seller loses (in price), the buyer gains (in savings). This is uni-variant, in that only one variable is considered. It is also zero-sum in that one person wins and the other loses.

Negotiating: You are selling piano "X". We bring into it tuning, regulation, repayment terms, loan/lease options, moving the piano, additional features (Dampp Chaser, etc), re-selling value, additional store credit, a bench, warranty terms, and any other number of variables you may be able to consider. This is multi-variant because there exists more than one variable. It is positive-sum because there is a chance that the buyer may "win" something that costs the seller "nothing", or may be willing to concede something of little costs that makes the seller's life easier.

Most commodity purchases do not have the option of being negotiated. Bargained, yes, but not negotiated. There typically are very few "win-win" variables. However, this poster is saying that if you can find any, you can (and should) change tactics from bargaining to negotiating.

One other key to negotiating: it is not time-bound. In other words, you can't have a one-time, short-lived experience with a seller and expect to be able to negotiate. Quite simply, you're not invested in each other's success long enough to truly equate potential gain. If you were leasing a car with an option to buy, and involving the company's loan department, now you have a longer-term situation in which negotiation can be utilized. But typical short-term and one-time commodity purchases with few selling options do not fall into this category.

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