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I'm beginning to see the problem with the term. I might be seen to make a comparison between black people and bakenezumi...

To be fair I didn't think that was what you meant. I did understood why you brought it up. But the reason why I disagreed because I think the major problem with the trope is how it further oppresses real groups.

The "noble savage" sometimes is used for fictional groups when I looked into it more so that is why I corrected myself.

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"Noble Savage" is a good term, but I'd argue that, even if he should betray the kids, there are ways he can remain that, e.g. if the betrayal serves as a sort of "moral lesson" that they couldn't take from Yakomaru, for example. It's almost, but not quite, what I'm getting at.

I don't want Kiroumaru to betray them because frankly I like him but if the characters learn something from Kiromaru's betrayal then perhaps you are right the narrative would be stronger for it.

the Roppongi crossing area itself sucks, but I'm guessing you haven't been about a few blocks in the other direction to Roppongi Hills? It's pretty much like the Beverly Hills of Japan. Also there's other nice areas in that vicinity, like azabu, and aoyama which are really classy. ALSO even in that "anus" of an area there are really nice bars hidden out of the way.

You gotta explore more and drop a lot of those misconceptions about the area, there's a lot that you'd miss.

Heh, what did you think I was referring to by "expensive and soulless shopping malls" and glitz if not RH and Tokyo Midtown? Trying to be Beverly Hills in Tokyo is hardly a reason to recommend a place as far as I'm concerned.

Aoyama and Azubu are fine, which is why I didn't say anything about them. They're pretty soulless and lacking in character too, but no more so than any upper-class haven.

OK, I totally wondered in my last post episode 21 about whether or not the Akki was truly a fiend since he seemed to be at the beck and call of the queerats. This suggests that he is "tame". But then again, Tomiko's fiend from the hospital wasn't quite the berserker type either. He was still walking, talking, and functional when not in kill mode.

From previous explanations, violence associated with the fiend appears to be indiscriminate (ergo, "Fox in the Henhouse" Syndrome). As in, a fiend can easily turn against his own friends, and family.

I think Saki makes two intriguing points in this episode:

1) Is their Akki really a fiend?

and ...

2) How do you turn a child into an Akki?

Satoru mentions that it happens quite suddenly but there were definitely tell-tale signs with prior fiends.

And finally, I'm going to reiterate my last question about Kiroumaru.

I really wonder at his motivation for siding with the humans. I want to say loyalty but I'm just not sure. A part of me thinks he's driven by revenge for his lost soldiers, or hatred for Yakomaru or because it's convenient but I feel like there's something more there. Maybe something he knows that Saki, and Satoru don't.

Otherwise, just want this series to finally end because the suspense is killing me!!!

I truly believe that Kiroumaru will come through until the end based on how he's acted throughout the series. A sudden about-face in the form of massive betrayal for Kirou would seem out of character.

BUT in this episode ... I didn't understand what was meant by showing Kiroumaru clenching his teeth. I think he had just requested to be made Tokyo squadron leader and said something about how many of his soldiers died in their former expedition but why the grimace? I took that to mean that he was hungry for revenge ... or maybe hiding something that we were only meant to see?

Kiroumaru is a terrific wild card. He's in the perfect position within his own personal arc that he could go either way and stay perfectly in-character. It makes sense for him to be the wise old berserker out to visit revenge upon Squealer. In the end, he would teach humans to respect the bakenezumi, just as Squealer has taught humans to fear them.

On the other hand, it also makes total sense for him to betray them. He's already indicated that his race knows far more about the powers (and limits) of the "gods" than the humans imagined, and all his talk about bakenezumi trying repeatedly to get to Tokyo makes me wonder if they haven't been after that weapon -- one which can wipe out the yoke-wielding telekinetic humans without destroying the land -- for a long time. Now he has three humans to guide him through the otherwise impassable tunnels to reach it.

If you had paid attention you would've noticed that they were following emergency situation training. Members of the Security Committe were also there to facilitate things. (Also, for that matter, the overwhelming majority of people would run around like fools in real life, too.)

First off, I'd appreciate it if you cut out the condescending tone ("if you had paid attention," "do the math"). Second, you claim they have training, but then agree with me that they run around like fools without training. If they don't remember or can't implement their training in the situation it was meant for, then quite simply, they are not trained.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu

For one, they did mind. Two she was ordered to be killed once because her power was late to manifest, that's not exactly a personality issue. Three, she violated the rules because as they were all aware of, she and the rest of Group 1 weren't reared to blindly follow the rules. The only time it ever mattered to them was the one time they actually decided to dispose of her.

No one in the anime has ever objected to Saki succeeding Tomiko. You also forget that Saki was ordered killed when she and Satoru were on the run during their summer trip (if you believe Kiroumaru) and also when she went after Shun after he had turned Gouma. A tainted cat attacked her. Tainted cats only attack who they are told to attack, therefore someone ordered her death.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu

...because they're old and probably wouldn't make it, while Saki and Satoru are strong and healthy young people? Saki's mother was in the second half of her thirties when Saki was born. Saki is 26 now. Do the math. Also, maybe-- just maybe-- they have something else to do, as mayor and head librarian, aside of releasing the cats. Maybe.

First, her parents have no idea if Saki is alive or not. If she is dead, what becomes of the mission? Second, if they can delegate this most important task to their daughter, then can delegate lesser tasks they might have to perform as well. I don't buy the age argument. If anything, one's mastery of their Cantus appears to constantly increase with age, so her parents should be more powerful (at least as their society thinks of strength). Not to mention Saki's mother is the expert on the library. How much knowledge does she have that Saki lacks? Saki is hardly a better choice than her parents to undertake the mission. Hell, the guano and bugs almost got her!

One another note, I agree with the others who think Kiroumaru is secretly aligned with Yakomaru. Inui's tale of how he snuck by the akki, then somehow passed out, couldn't use his Cantus, but then was rescued by Kiroumaru really smacks of a set up. Inui believes he tricked the akki, but he was probably the one being tricked.

As I told you, I'm not arguing with you about this, or the other things you listed. You can easily find the answer if you pay attention or just use your head. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by sonagi

BUT in this episode ... I didn't understand what was meant by showing Kiroumaru clenching his teeth. I think he had just requested to be made Tokyo squadron leader and said something about how many of his soldiers died in their former expedition but why the grimace? I took that to mean that he was hungry for revenge ... or maybe hiding something that we were only meant to see?

As for that

Spoiler for novel:

the anime left out a part where the monk doubts his intentions and Kiroumaru basically tells them that if there's anything they can be sure of it's his hatred for Yakomaru who has imprisoned his queen and likely treats her the same way Kiroumaru himself is being treated; and that the desire to tear Yakomaru to tiny little pieces and rescuing his queen is pretty much the only thing that has kept him alive. He also tells them that as dangerous as Tokyo is, it's basically a suicide mission to go there without a guide. So I think that teeth clench was supposed to represent all this.

the anime left out a part where the monk doubts his intentions and Kiroumaru basically tells them that if there's anything they can be sure of it's his hatred for Yakomaru who has imprisoned his queen and likely treats her the same way Kiroumaru himself is being treated; and that the desire to tear Yakomaru to tiny little pieces and rescuing his queen is pretty much the only thing that has kept him alive. He also tells them that as dangerous as Tokyo is, it's basically a suicide mission to go there without a guide. So I think that teeth clench was supposed to represent all this.

Not saying if this is or isn't a lie, though.

I wonder if they flashed that scene to be intentionally ambiguous, timing it as they did. I'm more inclined to believe that the grimace was a sign of anticipation at Kirou's thought of getting his revenge on Yaku. Only because I believe that the enmity between them is genuine. I don't think it was feigned resentment during that episode when they were arguing back and forth about hostile takeover, rules of engagement, etc. in front of the Ethics Committee. On the other hand, it wouldn't be wild conjecture to think that he had ulterior motives based on how the scene was postured.

Hmm, kind of a low-key episode, but it was a big information dump. Like the rest of you, I'm really not sure what to make of Kiroumaru at this point. I feel like how he was being mistreated and put in chains before Saki and Satoru arrived might hint that all those grins/smirks/weird-ass queer-rat facial expressions might indeed be hinting at something sinister brewing in his mind...

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't want Kiroumaru to betray them because frankly I like him but if the characters learn something from Kiromaru's betrayal then perhaps you are right the narrative would be stronger for it.

I like his character too, but in my eyes, IF he betrayed them, they pretty much deserved it. Of course, not Saki and Satoru who treat him kindly, but the other humans sure do.

Also, we can say for certain now that the 'fiend' isn't actually one, but merely recognizes the humans as 'animals' akin to the way people do to the rats. Can someone clarify to me at the beginning of the episode, didn't Inui say that he got the fiend to stop attacking by saying that he was being hurt in the rats' language? That's how I interpreted that part and if that did stop the attack we pretty much have our confirmation there. I'm guessing the child won't actually end up killed and now something else will come of this search for the weapon. It may end up in the hands of Yakomaru like some of you are speculating, which would be a worst case scenario for the humans.

I don't think he'll betray them, but they've set it up so that anything could happen at this point. I can even believe that the main cast could all die to "save the world" at this point.

I like how they've managed to break free of a lot of the usual anime tropes, even if they have overdone some things to emotionally yoyo the audience a little bit (though the maria bit sounds anime-only).

Wouldn't the biggest twist be that... Kiroumaru is the true mastermind behind everything! The Giant Hornets actually had more advanced military weapons than the others first, so they probably had a false minoshiro before the others. Also, the only way to gain the trust of the humans was to alienate himself from the rest of the queerats; hence, destroying his army was a necessary sacrifice.

As for the suggestion earlier that the fiend (probably not, but we don't have a better name for him right now) cannot kill the queerats, I revisited episode 18. For the discussion of the defeat of the Giant Hornets, the arrows were undamaged and the dead were lumps of flesh. To be lumps of flesh, they either had to have been blown up by a bomb or destroyed with Cantor. However, as mentioned in the episode, a bomb would have damaged the arrows as well. Hence, the only option currently known left is that the fiend killed the Giant Hornets (unless the they took suicide drugs that blew them up from within).

man yakomaru better watch himself if ever Kiroumaru ever catcher him without the akki beside him...he's really gonna feel the pain. Kiroumaru certainly showed how competent and badass he is, makes you wonder though, it seems he is a special case (as is yakomaru in a way) I don't think He is out to betray Saki & satoru BTW i do believe he really is so mad with Yokumaru that conniving with him like this would feel out of character for me.but i can be wrong though. Also That "akki" can & do kill Bakenezumi, that's what Yakomaru said his men charged the "akki" weaponless to distract it so he can escape. they were killed by the "akki"

So it seems maria/mamoru's child is not really an akki. i've thought of this before since he doesn't really fit the profile of previous Akki. Previous Akki seems to act for their own selves and not in response to a command and in collusion with a group of other individuals.

There's some elements of this latest episode that smell fishy to me. And I'm not talking about Kiroumaru's grins (although that is somewhat suggestive given everything else).

Kiroumaru's survival story is a bit hard to swallow. He jumped right by the fiend, and into a ditch, and somehow survived? When everybody else in his tribe were killed?

That seems very uncharacteristically sloppy of Yakomaru to me. To allow an enemy commander to get away like that. Nobody is perfect, of course, but still...

The Psychobuster is designed to wipe out cantus-using humans in general, not just fiends. And it's very contagious. It's not hard to see how this could backfire horribly on Saki, Satoru et al if it's not used wisely...

Consider the following possibility - Yakomaru and Kiroumaru came up with this complex plot for freeing their people from the yoke of humanity. They make sure to make it look like they hate each other - Kiroumaru in particular goes out of his way to look seriously pissed when both he and Yakomaru were questioned by the humans several episodes back.

Kiroumaru and Yakomaru then set up a bunch of semi-fake wars to make it look to the humans that the Queerats are in a massive all-encompassing civil war. Kiroumaru's side is wiped out, but Kiroumaru still has an important role to play, so Yakomaru lets him go.

Kiroumaru helps save a human to make it look like he's still loyal to humans. He backs that up by what he says.

Kiroumaru's job is to have the humans bring him to the one remaining piece of the puzzle for his and Yakomaru's master plan - The Psychobuster.

Who needs fiends when you have a Psychobuster? Fiends are risky, as various commentators have stated on previous episode threads and elsewhere. Some have argued that Yakomaru is overreaching in planning to make an army of fiends to take over the world with. That this will backfire on him. What if Yakomaru himself knows it's too risky? What if he's just making it seem like that's his plan by taking captive all those baby humans? For all we know, he could have had all those human babies killed and disposed of shortly after he kidnapped them. It could have been a pure ruse to make it look like he plans to raise an army of fiends... when Yakomaru's real goal is gaining the Psychobuster.

Yakomaru and Kiroumaru push the humans up against the wall, to the point where the Psychobuster is their last resort, forcing them to turn to it. The humans play right into their ploy, and give Yakomaru a much more reliable WMD than an army of fiends.

And is Maria's child a fiend? They say there's no coincidences in fiction. Red herrings are rare for much the same reason. Saki raising the possibility that the fiend is not really a fiend strikes me as a truly pointless bit of dialogue to bother with unless the author is in fact aiming for red herrings. Which is possible, but I find it somewhat doubtful. This narrative has plenty of good plot twists without needing to use red herrings.

If the fiend isn't a fiend, then perhaps he's simply a cantus-using human that Yakomaru has removed Death Feedback from. Maybe Yakomaru has discovered a way to do that.

And Kiroumaru's a smart guy, but even so, he's rather quick on the uptake and he seems to know a lot of things easily, a bit too easily. The way he helped Saki et al escape from Queerat patrols gave me a strange impression of being a little bit of stagecraft just to make the humans think that nothing fishy is going on here. In other words, Yakomaru puts on a show of just enough resistance and "border patrols" to make it seem like he really doesn't want Saki et al to get away... even though he does want them to.

When I put all of the above together, it really, really looks quite suspicious.

I'm not sure how I feel about it though. On the one hand, it would make Yakomaru and Kiroumaru one of the very best antagonist duos of all-time. Just deliciously brilliant and cunning antagonists if I'm right (or close to right) here. Yakomaru is already an impressive antagonist, but this would truly put him over the top, and Kiroumaru would join him.

On the other hand, I admit I am fond of Kiroumaru's established "noble beast" characterization to date. A queerat that is loyal to humans to the very end is also an interesting notion.

But the good news here is that I could see either approach working well if executed decently. I agree with ThereminVox that the narrative has done a good job of setting things up so that it could believably go either way with Kiroumaru, which adds great suspense going forward.

Overall, an excellent episode. I do find the pacing a bit slow, but that might mostly be due to how the suspense is killing me. This is one climax I can't wait to see.

Ok, I watched the episode with my mind already set to the fact that Kiromaru would have played the savior role. We already knew that he sooner or later would have came back in some way or another. So, even thanks to the preview, I was expecting to have him so helpful, knowing things that Humans didn't and what not. So the episode went quite smoothly, very interesting being quite informative, but quite expected in terms of character interactions. I didn't take account Kiromaru's smirking here and there because this series is not really consistent in facial expression regards, I stopped paying attention to that long time ago. But probably it's just me.
The only thing that really felt out of place, letting aside Saki being assigned of this task, was Yakomaru supposed leading the chase. I thought it was really out of character of him. I mean, he never showed up until now, why in the world our coward strategist would follow them into an sort of unknown and very very dangerous place, letting aside the presence of three Pkes and his nemesis, Kiromaru. But I thought that was due to the fact that humans should have had a chance to pay him back sooner or later, narrative-wise, so even if it felt a bit weak I let that slip away.

Then I came here and read the Kiromaru-as-traitor theory and now I can't keep that out of my mind. I mean, to me Kiromaru has always been the loyal warrior, your samurai equivalent, the one who will give his life for his "daimyo", so the eventuality never crossed my mind.
But now, thinking back to the episode, things went really smoothly for them. Kiromaru came back saving Inui, he already knew the place, Tokyo and he can trace down obviously his own species much better than them. The submarine. Nothing else? Dunno, some coffee, tea?
And he kept pressuring them telling they are chased. How did Yakomaru know? Ok he is smart, he is a great strategist and whatever, but he is not omniscient. And then he said that Yakomaru was leading the chase. Everything about the moment they passed queerats check points was based on his words and only. He could say whatever he wanted. A bit scary thinking back

Now, despite I agree taht Kiromaru could betray or stay loyal to them remaining in-character in both cases, surely him betraying them would fit much better the tone and the flow somehow I have been perceiving by the show so far. And even a hell of a twist, because it wouldn't be cheap or not consistent. So, everything could happen. Very interesting.
Thinking about it, the only inconsistency would be that it would contrast with Saki being "the one", giving the fact that she would have been fooled for the nth time by a queerat. So if Kiromaru betrays them that would go against basically Saki's peculiarity, or what I think it is, her sympathy/empathy for the queerats.

__________________

The meaning of things lies not in the things hemselves, but in our attitude towards them.

Okay I've been thinking about this Kiroumaru betrayal thing. First of all despite my feelings I do think it is a real possibility.

However my personal issue is Kiroumaru has shown to be honorable, to be different from Yakomaru. Betrayal and underhanded techniques don't seem to be Kiroumaru's style.

Now I don't think being against the humans in itself is bad. The monster rats even have reason to be against the humans. But if Kiroumaru tricks & betrays Saki and Satoru, it's making it out that the entire story is us vs them. That the humans and monster rats can only be enemies. And in fact it would actually solidify the negative view of monster rats for the humans. It would mean Saki was wrong to trust and stand up for Kiroumaru. I think that is a bit sad.

But then again I think one of the issues with this series is we have only seen this conflict through the human side. We might understand why the monster rats are revolting but the only think we have seen of the monster rats are somewhat negative too. For some reason or another the author never really reflects on the good side of the monster rats (although perhaps that is just my perception since a lot of people seem to side with them) Kiroumaru seems to be an exception to this (Sqounk was another one).

And please note: when I say good side, I don't necessarily mean just good to the humans but even good to each other.

Although I wonder if somehow Kiroumaru could betray and still be honorable. Is that even possible?

It's possible that Kiroumaru has his own agenda. On the face of it, he just wants revenge, but assuming he wants more - say, rights and recognition for Queerats - then he may pursue that agenda even if he isn't working with Yakomaru.

The Queerats are in a critical state. If the humans recover, there's a real risk that they would just wipe out all the Queerats. Kiroumaru might be thinking of his species as a whole here, or he might not. If he does care - he's in a good situation with Saki and Satoru. Saki seems to be the humans' new leader, and she doesn't seem inclined to kill him or all the Queerats off. Killing her would be a bad idea, if he wants to keep both their species alive. But that doesn't mean he can't take advantage of the situation with the Psychobuster to try to come to some sort of compromise where everyone can live.

Kiroumaru's in for the long haul along with Yakomaru. Common knowledge among his species? Hell yeah sure if you're all working together. This shed entirely new lights on that one incident where one colony loyal to you switched sides to Yakomaru just like that in the battlefield. What a set up lol.

And how convenient is it for the one true nemesis among the bakenezumis for Yakomaru to have escaped the slaughter, no? Not like Yakomaru would have prioritized his mortal enemy or anything. Oh and even more conveniently, this nemesis of the arch-villain happens to rescue the sole survivor of the squad that was sent to exterminate the villains. What a coincidence, seriously. Best part? The "messiah" who seems to have had near omniscient knowledge of humans that were anywhere remotely close to him doesn't kill this one human right in his territory, surrounded and discovered as he was.

Oh hey there's some weapon after all. Damn Minoshiros are freaking kawaii. Don't know what I am supposed to make of those scenes in the background. Guess it's something like undoing some of the hypnosis so that you can at least attack that "fiend"? Not kill, just attack him with this psychobuster, whatever that shit is. A laser gun would be cool but hey it's supposed to be a WMD so something like a neutrino bomb with some uberhax particle that disarms psychic powers maybe? Oh well whatever. Wait what. Tokyo? Guess freaking Japanese cartoons always have to have Tokyo somewhere. All plots lead to Tokyo and such.

Right right, Yakomaru didn't think "that" one through, heh, I bet he did, you're just trying to get the humans' confidence by acting like their compass. Smell your kind my ass. Why couldn't you smell a non-your-kind in the big battlefield uh huh? And heck, talk shit about Yakomaru more to keep the humans convinced of how low you think of him as a creature. Good going brother. Bet Yakomaru's gonna come chasing soon enough though. Just need the humans to know that you are in danger yourself and not infallible with your navigation to show that you actually don't know what's going on in the little bugger's head.

Oh hey. Okay, what's next. Oh right. These humans never learn do they. They are making that machine talk all around you.

Enter description of pyschobuster (initially, I had thought it would be more of a traditional weapon, albeit one that would only kill the psychich portion of the psychics, like some bomb that released some specific particles / microorganisms / chemicals or a ray gun or some shit like that, I didn't consider freaking anthrax because what the hell that shit kills o_o) and I am like oh wow holy shit these Queer Rats are fucking good at this. They even have a contingency plan in place in case the "fiends" go against them. God damn that's next level. Relying on your enemy to figure out the weapon needed.

Everything's going as planned... not for Saki and co. though.

Oh shit what the hell Saki. You are supposed to have mental fortitude and decisiveness that makes you the perfect candidate for the supreme leader vis a vis and you can't walk over that? Screw hell, people do that for a few grands in public TV. Heck people consume those things here and there.

Ouch Satoru. That's gotta hurt lol. Care about yourself and not the girl please. Although this is one case where she's probably raising a valid point. That kid doesn't exactly fit a fiend's description if you ask me.

Meh... this should have been a 1 hour special.

TL;DR: Kiroumaru, I don't trust you. Yakomaru, and whoever else devised this "strategy", you are genius(es). I doubt you guys win though? I don't know.

For the discussion of the defeat of the Giant Hornets, the arrows were undamaged and the dead were lumps of flesh. To be lumps of flesh, they either had to have been blown up by a bomb or destroyed with Cantor. However, as mentioned in the episode, a bomb would have damaged the arrows as well. Hence, the only option currently known left is that the fiend killed the Giant Hornets (unless the they took suicide drugs that blew them up from within).

Not quite. The anime made short of Kiroumaru's account of the events but I think he made it quite clear what happened on the battlefield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kiroumaru's survival story is a bit hard to swallow. He jumped right by the fiend, and into a ditch, and somehow survived? When everybody else in his tribe were killed?

For what it's worth, the anime over-dramatized this a bit. In the book Kiroumaru says he was 20-30 meters away from the kid so it's not like he was literally right next to him. 20-30 meters is not very far but it's not very close either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Who needs fiends when you have a Psychobuster?

But then, it's just as dangerous to bakenezumi as it is to humans. If I was Squealer (or a human for that matter) I wouldn't feel safe knowing that I have such a thing in my vicinity...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Best part? The "messiah" who seems to have had near omniscient knowledge of humans that were anywhere remotely close to him doesn't kill this one human right in his territory, surrounded and discovered as he was.

For what it's worth, this was the anime not making things clear.

Spoiler for book:

Inui had discarded his original coat and was wearing one that he had taken from a bakenezumi he killed, which covered most of his body and his face, and masked his scent to a degree. While he's an ikemen in the anime (with Toriumi Kousuke's voice, oh yeah) he's supposed to be very short, plus he kept crying in bakenezumi language. Add to this that it was dark, and he managed to pass for a bakenezumi - only barely, but it was enough to keep him alive.

Basically, Inui is just a very lucky bastard. Too lucky? Maybe, but if he died we wouldn't have a story, so...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Tokyo? Guess freaking Japanese cartoons always have to have Tokyo somewhere. All plots lead to Tokyo and such.

Just like how American movies are fond of including the US somewhere... :3

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-03 at 19:11.
Reason: Oops, I misread a sentence.