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Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

I think I'm onto something here. Most people that are so enamored of this game seem to be WoW burnouts ( having spent years and years playing WoW). Thus, the slighest change from those years of experience for them is being viewed as "innovation." (Additionally, I think these same people are the ones crying "WoW Clone" so much)

I, for one, spent (at most) 2 or so months playing WoW and never experienced that symptom. Be interesting to see how many people really like this game who didn't play WoW for years on end....

Just a theory, of course.

well i played wow for about 2 years on and off at launch so its been many many years since I played wow so i wouldn't call that being a wow burnout. Thinks it's more people who are burnt out on the tiered gear treadmill/raid type themeparks more than anything.

I'd consider 2 years to be burnout. Anything really above the normal for a themepark game (0 to 6 or so months).

if i was still playing maybe but that was several years ago.. i don't consider being burnt out on a game I played half a decade ago. Also it was on and off for two years I hardly played for more than a couple months in a row.. Rift I probably played most consecutive of the recent themeparks(9 months). It's really a matter of what I said before burnt out on tiered gear based/raid focused endgame themeparks.. wow just happens to be one of those

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so basically your theory is anyone who played wow for > 6 months even if not consecutivley enjoys GW2 more than people who played wow for <6 months? To me just seems like people who enjoy themeparks for the most part enjoy this game more because it's one of the best themeparks ever made.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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so basically your theory is anyone who played wow for > 6 months even if not consecutivley enjoys GW2 more than people who played wow for <6 months? To me just seems like people who enjoy themeparks for the most part enjoy this game more because it's one of the best themeparks ever made.

My theory is... if playedTimeWoW >= 6 months then GW2_score = high

I like themeparks but I do not think this game is anywhere near one of the best themeparks ever made.

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Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre? It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre. This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

Because WoW invented the modern day questing system, thus changing the genre forever by creating "themepark" mmos. Maybe you need a history lesson.

My "history" knowledge is well intact, you didn't say "created the modern day questing system", you said creating the genre. [mod edit]

so basically your theory is anyone who played wow for > 6 months even if not consecutivley enjoys GW2 more than people who played wow for <6 months? To me just seems like people who enjoy themeparks for the most part enjoy this game more because it's one of the best themeparks ever made.

My theory is... if playedTimeWoW >= 6 months then GW2_score = high

guess it works considering you would know all of the issues wow had in the core questing and gameplay mechanics and how much GW2 improves on these issues imho:)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by grimgryphon

I think some folks are forgetting that reviews are also opinions. Bill is no more qualified than any of you to rate games, he's just giving his personal experience, which is probably part of his job. If you treat reviews as definitive guides to which games you should play, then you're probably missing out on some truely enjoyable gameplay.

Personally, I'd give GW2 an 8.0. I can't see the 9.3 score myself. Maybe Bill has been taking lessons from Bitton, who reviewed D3 and scored it an 8.5.

But a "review" is a critical analysis by definition. It's more than just an opinion. And being that he has stamped it with the "official MMORPG review" stamp it carries a bit more weight than any of the others here.

There is a big difference between a scholarly review, or critical analysis, and a review by a peer. Bill is a gamer just like you and I. AFAIK, he has no technical aptitude or skill in game development, so it would be improper for him to conduct a critical analysis of any game architecture.

Besides, gameplay reviews hardly fall into the "serious critique" category. They are not about the underlying technology, they are about gameplay. They belong with movie reviews and music reviews, i.e, other forms of entertainment.

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Originally posted by grimgryphon

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by grimgryphon

I think some folks are forgetting that reviews are also opinions. Bill is no more qualified than any of you to rate games, he's just giving his personal experience, which is probably part of his job. If you treat reviews as definitive guides to which games you should play, then you're probably missing out on some truely enjoyable gameplay.

But a "review" is a critical analysis by definition. It's more than just an opinion. And being that he has stamped it with the "official MMORPG review" stamp it carries a bit more weight than any of the others here.

There is a big difference between a scholarly review, or critical analysis, and a review by a peer. Bill is a gamer just like you and I. AFAIK, he has no technical aptitude or skill in game development, so it would be improper for him to conduct a critical analysis of any game architecture.

Besides, gameplay reviews hardly fall into the "serious critique" category. They are not about the underlying technology, they are about gameplay. They belong with movie reviews and music reviews, i.e, other forms of entertainment.

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with 56 critic reviews with an average score of 91 i'd say Bill is pretty much on par with every other critic.

Almost 1400 gamespot user average 9.1

Ive watched gamespot user reviews for years now and the average from there has always been a lot closer to what I feel about a game.. well closer than metacritic user reviews at least

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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I totally agree with that score - which is well deserved just for having the "balls" to get away from the WoW clone model in an AAA theme park MMORPG. And it's a success.

Those who don't like it are for most either bitter sandbox fan who are just hating on every new MMORPG anyway (so their opinion isn't worth much), or prisoners of the EQ/WoW clone model where everything should be a grind for a shiny purple reward instead of just playing for fun.

There are very few MMORPGs I'd rate above 9.0 in the 17+ years I'm playing the graphic version of that genre - and GW2 is one of them.

I would say that most of the people hating on it are bored. The idea of the game seemed better than the actual implementation. There are tons of posts of people who didn't realize what combat would be like minus the trinity or a game without gear / vertical progression. There are a lot of people who don't want to redo content being down leveled. They are not all "bitter" sandbox fans or "prisoners" of the WoW/EQ model. Even if they are, why must you demean them for something they like. To them, grinding for that purple may be fun.

They are bored precisely because they need that gear carrot from EQ/WoW clones. Without it, they can't play a game... they can't play a game just for fun, like many did in games like UO and AC1.

And yes, I "demean" them... I demean people who need a game to be a second job at max level to play it. And I do that because they are the main cause why all AAA MMORPGs in the last 8 years are WoW clones. I'm glad to have a game where the gameplay doesn't drastically change and force you into a group based raid grind at max level. Seriously, all those grind greedy people can play WoW or any of its numerous clones, and just stay the hell away from the only AAA theme park game in 8 years which had the balls to move away from that rigid model.

PS: this comes from a guy who played WoW for 8 years (including beta) and will certainly try Pandaria at some point. But for hell's sake, it's time to break that mold... for those who want more WoW, there is WOW. I'm glad to have a game that is NOT WoW. Not to mention all those who have tried to imitate the master sucked at it.

The endless chain of mediocre to bad WoW clones is broken. Any true MMORPG fan should rejoice, even if he doesn't like GW2, because despite him not liking it, the game is a success showing that things can be done differently. Or do you guys want to spend the next 10 years getting more poor WoW clone after poor WoW clone?

To some people that is fun..... Who are you to dictate what is fun to a person. I see you being no different than someone who tells someone that they are playing the game wrong.

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This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.

Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre? It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre. This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

Indeed, the first successful graphical MMORPG (beside early niche stuff like The Realm or Meridian and a few others) is Ultima Online. And Ultima Online is definitely closer to Guild Wars 2 than to any EQ/WoW clone.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

I totally agree with that score - which is well deserved just for having the "balls" to get away from the WoW clone model in an AAA theme park MMORPG. And it's a success.

Those who don't like it are for most either bitter sandbox fan who are just hating on every new MMORPG anyway (so their opinion isn't worth much), or prisoners of the EQ/WoW clone model where everything should be a grind for a shiny purple reward instead of just playing for fun.

There are very few MMORPGs I'd rate above 9.0 in the 17+ years I'm playing the graphic version of that genre - and GW2 is one of them.

I would say that most of the people hating on it are bored. The idea of the game seemed better than the actual implementation. There are tons of posts of people who didn't realize what combat would be like minus the trinity or a game without gear / vertical progression. There are a lot of people who don't want to redo content being down leveled. They are not all "bitter" sandbox fans or "prisoners" of the WoW/EQ model. Even if they are, why must you demean them for something they like. To them, grinding for that purple may be fun.

They are bored precisely because they need that gear carrot from EQ/WoW clones. Without it, they can't play a game... they can't play a game just for fun, like many did in games like UO and AC1.

And yes, I "demean" them... I demean people who need a game to be a second job at max level to play it. And I do that because they are the main cause why all AAA MMORPGs in the last 8 years are WoW clones. I'm glad to have a game where the gameplay doesn't drastically change and force you into a group based raid grind at max level. Seriously, all those grind greedy people can play WoW or any of its numerous clones, and just stay the hell away from the only AAA theme park game in 8 years which had the balls to move away from that rigid model.

PS: this comes from a guy who played WoW for 8 years (including beta) and will certainly try Pandaria at some point. But for hell's sake, it's time to break that mold... for those who want more WoW, there is WOW. I'm glad to have a game that is NOT WoW. Not to mention all those who have tried to imitate the master sucked at it.

The endless chain of mediocre to bad WoW clones is broken. Any true MMORPG fan should rejoice, even if he doesn't like GW2, because despite him not liking it, the game is a success showing that things can be done differently. Or do you guys want to spend the next 10 years getting more poor WoW clone after poor WoW clone?

To some people that is fun..... Who are you to dictate what is fun to a person. I see you being no different than someone who tells someone that they are playing the game wrong.

You only answer to like 10% of my post, at best.

Let me ask you a question... There are 10 Mc Donald's like restaurants in a street. And suddenly, some guy opens a Taco Bell. I intentionally use two fast food examples so you can't use that as argument. Would anyone complain that for once, someone tries something different. For hell's sake, you aren't even forced to eat at the Taco Bell, there are 10 Mc Donald like games just a few meters away.

That my point. For 8 years, I've seen people here complain that every new MMORPG looks like WoW. Now that one doesn't look like WoW, the same people complain that it doesn't look like WoW. If that isn't nonsense... of course it is.

I don't dictate what is fun to a person. But I'm also amused at people complaining that the food at Taco Bell isn't the same than at Mc Donalds. [mod edit]

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This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.

Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre? It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre. This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

Indeed, the first successful graphical MMORPG (beside early niche stuff like The Realm or Meridian and a few others) is Ultima Online. And Ultima Online is definitely closer to Guild Wars 2 than to any EQ/WoW clone.