Thought this might be of interest. It's some of the recent National Geographic special on George Dillman and its also features Leon Jay. I'll host on my server for a little while for your viewing pleasure!

I would be very interested to see what Scott has to say about this. Unfortunately Dillman is now promoting DBZ. He has a kid who looks to be about 13 with a black belt throwing chiballs at people? We need a BS section in the forum and that video should be the first to make it in. I'm very disappointed.

_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

It is very apparent the individuals there are being maniuplated (such as putting a large shill at the business end of the line), and relying on autosuggestion. Seen many places.

George has served many masters of his own choosing over the years. He was somebody who did promote traditional karate. He did push everyone, everywhere to consider how kata technqiue could be used, and apparently followed his own advice that how good you look in forms is unimportant, so much so he's gone into magic acts. Wally Jay's son seems to have gone along for the ride with his own legitimate training, when you're after the cash you always follow the cash flow and the marks after all (I'm sure something like this was said by PT Barnum).

I would suggest if offered to feel a No Touch KO, take the ride and reach out and touch them first.

That was the biggest bunch of BS I have seen in a while. Pathetic!!!!!

A RIDDLE WRAPPED IN A MYSTERY INSIDE AN ENIGMA THAT IS COVERED IN COMPLETE BS.

I had to stop watching when I saw the jr. black belt throwing a Chi-ball. Garbage. I can't believe a formerly reputable martial artist promotes this crap, and I further can't believe that anyone else FALLS FOR IT!!

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! IDIOTS!!!!!!!

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Sorry guys just got an email from my ISP complaining saying that I'm exceeding the bandwidth to my server. We've gone from about 16meg a day to over a gig in the past couple of days. I've had to move the file I'm affraid, before they shut my site down.

This is just an emergancy post to say sorry for taking it down. PM me if you want a copy!

Hi all, thanks for all the comments on this one. Opinion seems to be pretty much universal. I've shown it to quite a few people this weekend and they were equally unimpressed. Some non-martial artist friends thought it was a joke! This is going to be a long post - BE WARNED!

Before I go any further I'd like to say that I have a lot of respect for both George Dillmans and Leon Jays physical abilities. I've seen Leon Jay at 3 seminars now, 2 of these I was really impressed with, the other I'll explain in a minute. And as far as Dillman goes, I think he is an extremely powerful and fast fighter, and honestly believe he has a fantastic knowledge of the Martial Arts.

Now, I fully understand some of the bad press both Dillman and the DKI (Dillmans organisation) have received over their PP work (prior to the No Touch Knockout Stuff), and partly agree. Not one of the knockouts I have ever seen done by the DKI has been done in a realistic way against non-compliant people. But, I think that to do a KO against someone going full power at you, you'd have to KO them at full power, so for safety reasons I can see some reasoning. Basically I want to state pre-rant that I do respect the abilities of both Dillman, Jay and others amongst the top DKI ranks who I've seen. They have alot of theory on the PP's which I'd like.

To give an example of where my respect for the DKI stood, up until March of this year I was extremely interested in becoming qualified with them.

Sorry for the lengthy intro, but I think the rest of this post is going to be extremely anti-DKI, so I wanted to give them the respect I feel Dillman deserves. Now, I'm going to be speaking from the point of view as a consumer and someone who is planning on dedicating a fair part of his life to the study of PP fighting.

In March I went to a Dillman seminar hosted over here in the UK by Leon Jay. A group of us went along from my club, and had a great time during the Dillman slot. He was funny, gave alot of good information about Kata Bunkai, PP's and stances. One of his guys stuck a point on me that brought my knee's up to chest and landed me in the fetal position on the floor, cool!!!! Dillman taught for a good 3 or 4 hours so we really got our moneys worth. And I was convinced that I wanted to become a DKI instructor! I know that some of the stuff wouldn't work in a live situation, but I have enough practical experience to adapt it.

We had a break then Leon Jay came out to do a slot. The first thing he had us do was to stand behind each other and try to pull each other using our chi. I've seen a UK TV Magician/Mentalist/God called Derren Brown do this, so I wasn't really that impressed, but stuck with it neither the less. I got my stuff from Dillman, so I was happy.

Then he got us to stand in a four or five lines of about 20 with our hands resting on the person in fronts shoulder (in the same way that they were during the clip). Leon then stood behind us all and used his chi to pull us all back. I can honestly say, and I speak for 5 others aswell, that not one of us was pulled back. I'll openly admit that we moved, but this was due to the 10 people in the line in front of us pushing back on me, not because we were being pulled backwards. Leon then proclaimed that he had moved 60+ people using his chi. As I said, I have nothing but respect for Leon Jay, and his farther Prof Wally Jay, but this was a joke. Photo's were taken of us all, and I suspect that it hit the magazines too. I can state caterogally that I was NOT pulled back, I was pushed back. If the people in front of me were pulled back I can't say, but I felt absolutely no pulling sensation whatsoever, I declare that experiment a failure. I feel embarassed to have been part of it. I still hadn't lost complete faith in the DKI though.

I got back from the seminar and started seriously looking around the web for more info on the DKI and kept on reading about Sound K.O's, Emotional K.O's and lots of No Touch KO's, alarm bells really started ringing.

Now, I'm going to take a moment to look at this objectively, let's for the sake of arguement agree that something is happening here. I don't think that anyone will argue that something is actually causing these guys to go out, I think what we're arguing is what is actually putting these guys out. Now we've covered NTKO's till the cows came home, were milked and died of old age in another thread, so I'll skip over what I thinks happening, but state that something is making these guys KO. Knocking people out has obviously combative applications and thus needs reasearching. So lets say this is a new Technology. Now I work with I.T and have to develop applications regularlly. If I release a program that crashes and fails every 10 minutes I'll be a laughing stock and loose all crediability amongst my peers and customers. Software crashing every 10 minutes shows that it hasn't been tested well enough and more importantly that I don't know enough about it! I see the NTKO stuff as that.

Dillman is a very clever man, I really don't think that he'd persue something that didn't have some merit. But is this stuff ready to be released in the wild? No way! Will it it ever be ready? Don't know. I would have thought with the James Cameron humiliation on national TV the DKI would have learnt, but obviously not. That program has made the DKI the laughing stock of the Martial world!

Sorry for the long post, but this really effects me as a Martial Artists quite alot. PP's is an area where I wish to specialise and hopefully contribute too. It is an area that already has many many doubters, and having the worlds most famous PP fighter humiliated on world wide TV makes us all look like nutjobs!

In case you haven't noticed I'm no longer persuing a career with the DKI (think after this post I've not really got a choice!), and have been lucky enough to find the Dragon Society International run by Rick Moneymaker and Tom Muncy. Through them I have found out about Russell Stutely, and am now persuing a path of study with combat orientated PP specialists. I haven't yet met Mr Stutely, but have had a few discussions with him over the email and brought some of his DVD's. He definately appears to be preaching from a book that I want to follow, I'm going onto a weeks camp with him in november so I'll let you know. If there's one mention of No Touch KO's though, I'll be on the first flight back (I have faith though, and think that I'll be signing up for the next camp!).

So, as far I as I'm concerned as a MA's consumer, the DKI have lost my respect and money. I'm a young and mouldable instructor looking to expand his horizons and the DKI will not be getting my money!

Hi Gavin,I'm a Ryukyu Kempo (Dillman method) student and I was there while Leon tried to Knock-out the National Geographic expert, I'am the big blonde guy that is ready to catch the expert if he was go down (I don't know how to say this correctly.. I'm italian mother language). I know that the expert has tried in any manner to resist to the knock out (Is well known that if you resist the NTKO don't work), I spoke with him and he explain me that he was really scared by certains "procedures, operations" and was also impressed by the sensations that he feel during the Leon Jay NTKO try. But I HAVEN'T SEE the special so please can you send me DKI-NG.WMV to [Email]supernoce@libero.it.[/Email]So when I see this video we can continue our discussion, I don't want to speak about a thing that I hadn't see.Reading your previous posts i have made a good idea about you, i think to speak with a person which is drived by the reason and the passion about MA... our discussion can will be really interesting and useful for both

Thank you aswell Gavin for starting this thread as I saw the documentary aswell on National Geographic and being a Kyusho Jitsu practioner I have to say am dissapointed about that no touch bs. I do believe that pressure points do work though but as far as the sound and no touch ko goes thats a no no for me.

Your welcome Jango. I've set up an account on dkiforum.com. I'm debating inviting them to come and join in the conversation. But I think it might seem a bit disrespectful to go onto another forum after I've slagged them off. Hopefully if we can keep this from being a flame war though, in which case it could be worthwhile for them to come over and put their side across.

Not worthwhile....like so many infatuated with certain beliefs...aliens, ghosts, etc. without any scientific evidence to support these claims, they believe despite the evidence and rationalize an escape from any argument...even though proof is against them.

In this day and age of instand media, there is NO place left for myth to hide, the exception being, within the minds of the weak who have a strong need to believe in fantasy. Apparently there is quite a number of just such people.

I saw the show and it shows one thing very nteresting and that is how powerfull a force suggestion can be. Remember the old Chinese story about the General who had an army who were sure they would lose a battle so he went to the temple of the thunder god with a test, he flipped a coin three times if all three flips were heads they would win if any one of the three were tails they would be defeated he flipped three times three times in a row heads came up and his soldiers went out and won the battle, they didn't learn till later that it was a two headed coin. The lesson is you can affect yourself and others can affect themselves, but suggestion can have a powerfull impact on people who want to believe. Why is it Mike Tyson never lost till Buster Douglass then when people stopped seeing him as invincible he was beaten several times. Why do the yankees win? the pinstripes. The last bit I leave with is that no chinese or japanese text in history claimed that there could be any manifestation of chi without a physical act, or if you want to knock someone out you have to hit them, based on their attitude it may be easier or harder to do so, but you still have to hit them.

I'll allow this discussion to continue on and welcome the debate provided it stays just that, a debate.

I can tell from experience this is going to go nowhere. As we have already seen in the video when the technique fails the excuses come out. I have heard several "reasons" why a no touch KO didn't work on an individual.

1. The attacker didn't have the true intent of harming the defender.

2. His tongue was touching the roof of his mouth neutralizing the effects of the NTKO.

3. His big toe was up.

4. This person isn't affected by such techniques.

5. The location or time of day was wrong.

6. The person to be knocked out doesn't believe in the technique.

There are a few others but these are the most recurring. What has happened is this "debate" has already been set up for failure. There is an excuse for every instance. These NTKOs will only be effective on students and associates for variety of reasons. Mainly because they want to believe and no amount of discussion will change that, just as those who do not believe in this sort of technique will not be swayed by demonstrations on students or associates of the individual. This is something that has been discussed numerous times with no result. What it turns out to be is three groups in a heated discussion. These groups are believers, nonbelievers and those in between. Those who have experienced what they believe to be a NTKO will not believe what they felt was anything but authentic regardless of the evidence presented to them. I firmly believe that many who believe in this sort of thing tend to grow out of it but take one of two paths. On one hand they realize they were the victims of a fraud and move on to other endeavors. On the other hand they see the benefit in perpetuating the fraud and continue to "teach" the technique even though they truly know it isn't real. I'm sure there are those who through lack of exposure to other arts or outside observations truly believe they are doing NTKOs and buy into the excuses they were fed in their early days of training.

The reality is the NTKO doesn't work. When asked to prove it does you get one of two responses. Either they do try and fail offering these feeble excuses as the reason or they refuse on the premise that a "true master" is too humble to need to prove himself to anyone. There is also the claim that many of these so called "masters" don’t' want people to believe in this technique as it will take away their advantage. This is complete nonsense.

This thread will go on for now but the moment i see it degenerate into the same redundant BS as in many other threads it will be locked. So keep it civil.

_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

"Rational?" Rational is not what the NTKO is about. What is being described here is generally the antithesis of the formal martial artist. Formal doesn't mean traditional or MMA, but just the study of things that logically build up to the betterment of performance for the practioner.

What Dillman and others seem to possess is a charismatic pull towards the darkest and most mysterious of MA's intangibles...and that is the secret technique that passes almost as magic. That once learned is a force to not be toyed with because of its deadly implications. This is the religous zealot at his worst, this is the conman, this the guru controlling his group, this is drinking the Koolaide and thinking it is good.

The implication is that there is a shortcut in training and that something can be got for nothing. Training, whether traditional or modern really is less about the mysterious but making what seems mysterious known. It is practice, it is deconstructing movement and technique to component parts for evaluation, it is training modalities that increase speed, impact, timing, and more importantly, understanding of why you do the things you do in the endeavor to get better at your art.

How much alike in belief are the wondering souls of the engineers in San Diego awaiting the mothership, and those in Jonestown? Not all these folk are stupid, unconsidering folk. Yet, they fall into the trap of not questioning and accepting what is stated as given and more than that, want to find the explanation as mysterious and not knowable.

No double blind testing, no proof, no empirical evidence...suggest that what is bogus, is so, and should remain so until proven otherwise. But, and this is a big but, despite evidence to the contrary...there will always be belivers in crap, no matter where you go or how much evidence is provided....the Emperor always has a new wardrobe.

The discussion I wanted to have is specifically how the largest organisation in the world promoting PP's is killing itself by turning itself into a study ground for stage magicians, instead of a group with an immense ammount of information on PP theory but does not seem willing to share in any great depth.

If anyone honestly believes that the NTKO's are utter nonsense I gladly take issue with that point as much as I would with anyone who tries to convince me that their using Chi to do it.

Arggggggh.....you're probably right, lets lock this thread and move on. People on both sides of the fence seem equally unwilling to participate in civil discussion. Just thought it would be good for both sides of the PP world to communicate.

One thing to consider is what is natural and normal in the process of human developement. In childhood and in early adolesence the is a period where "Magical thinking" is natural, normal and developmentaly appropriate. To chide a child or young teen for believing in or searching for magical solutions is as foolish and counterproductive as spanking 9 month old for not walking. That stage in a child is natural and normal. It needs to be respected and nurtured. In an adult it can be a pathology that needs to be treated. Any training if it is going to be of value should move us incrementalty toward what is real and true to the degree that we can bear it. That ability varies from individual to individual. We can nurture a child and responsibly urge and encourage our partners and students to embrace what is real and true about themselves , others and life in general. Growing in our ability to experience the fullness of life is hard work.If your training helps you to do that effectively your training is of great value.

Hi gavin, Firstly thank you for the link,If you want to understand who i am, i am the person that is fingerlocked by leon jay near the end of the video

I want to focus about the believer and not believer.Have you ever tried to do something without believing in it? It became really hard. Instead if you are believing in that you're doing it became easier.If you refuse something your mind make it impossible or really hard and viceversa.If you are not a believer you are not able to perform a NTKO but you can be NTkockedOut, but you haven't to resist... resist like the NG expert.I am soon of a medician and a nurse and in the beginning i was really sceptic and was hard for me believe in something like chi, chi projection, PPKO,NTKO ...But a time i thought, now i try for 1or 2 years and if after i don't will became able to do certain things, i will send my instructor to hell and i will begin to do boxe. But in this period i have to believe in that i am doing because if i don't believe i only lose time. When i start to train myself believing i become able to do that.Somebody say that you can be everything you want to be just only you believe to be able, so your mind push completely yourself to became able to do.Sure i cannot became mazinga z or ufo robot but if i don't believe in that i am doing i will not be able to do anything.I am realist when i am doing MA and I want also to say that NTKO is bullshit on the streets (sometimes also pressure point KO is bullshit on the streets), but explain you the concept that you are not only a physical object but also an enegetic one, and you have to put your attention also to other things than the pysical ones. Returning to the documentary, the expert of NG wanted to do an experiment, that you see when george project his energy aganist a person behind a sheet hold by 2 persons (it isn't a sheet but i don't know how to say that). the experiment was so:

1. Put a person behind this "sheet"2. The person cannot see anything through this "sheet" 3. The person don't know when george start to project his CHI4. George haven't to do noises (so he can advert the person behind the "sheet")5. let to pass + or - 2 minutes6. An expert advert george to start to project7. The person go down

This was an experiment wanted by National Geographic and George passed this exam with full marks, theres no suggestion in the NTKO this experiment demontrate this.

In the other corner, for the shouting NTKO, where a person try to hit george with a punch, george choose the weakest person (energetically speaking) that i know... but he isn't an actor and it isn't simulating.If you try a PPKO on he work great... The PPKO don't work easy on everybody (so you know), on somebody work with exceptional results and in other person work less, the same things are for NTKO. I am sure (and i know) that George and Leon choose weak person (energetically speaking) to perform their NTKO, but they were doing real things not tales. I am sure also that Geroge Dillman is not become only a good MA master but also a good business man... but not a cherlatan.

Gavin this is only the head of an iceberg about that i want to say about NTKO,CHI,TCM, George Dillman, Ryukyu Kempo, the documentary and MA, but i prefer to go slowly and step by step.

I hope to be useful for everyone want to understand more about the documentary and their doubts.Please everyone ask me directly on this forum everything he want, if i am able i try to answer to you.

Thanks very much for the reply Daniel. I understand that it must be very hard to word such a long reply in a foriegn language. And the term "sheet" is perfect!

I can hear people firing up their keyboards already, please be constructive and show Daniel the respect he deserves for taking the time to reply.

Daniel, I'm going to take some time to think of a reply. If this does get silly in a public forum, we'll do it privately over email, as I have a lot of questions to ask you regarding DKI practices! Stay tuned my friend!

My issue with practically everything that I have seen the DKI do, is that it just doesn't take into account the way an actual fight would occur. NTKO's whether using Sound or Chi as the explanation simply do not work consistantly enough to be taken seriously as a Martial Arts technique let alone a combative one. I know that you guys have performed hundreds within the dojo, but when tried on people from outside that have failed time and time again. I know the argument that they are resisting and that on the street they wouldn't know it was coming on the street, but the way it is being experiemented on the T.V programs is failing. For me, unless it can be shown to work 90% of the time I wouldn't show it to anyone, let alone go on world wide TV with it.

As you so rightly said, NTKO's are bullshit in a real life fight, but if this is the case why go on world wide TV and promote it as a fighting technique? Whether Dillman said it or not, this is how it is precieved to the outside world. If doesn't work in real life, its not a fighting technique. If its not a fighting technique, its not Martial Arts in my opinion.

Recently, virtually all of the publicity about the DKI has been around the NTKO. At this stage of the game, I don't feel that this has any place apart from in a magic show. I want to see the DKI going back to what it does best, Kata Bunkai and PP research. I especially want to see it start developing effective combat ready PP attacks, that would work under the effects of adrenaline and against agressive violent opponents. I want to see the DKI stop marketing these unrealiable NTKO's, and show Dillman to be the great MA that I know he is, rather than a money making machine. I especially want the NTKO stuff kept out of Martial Arts until it is fully understood and can be be used consistently.

Until that time I don't think the DKI will earn any respect whatsoever, which is truely a shame.

Yours respectfully,Gav.

PS. I hope this wasn't offensive to you, I'm just trying to be honest. I would really like to talk TCM and stuff with you privately, but I think the issues I have with this stuff is the same as the rest of the guys on this forum.

Its difficult to stay out of this one, but im of the opinion that the organisation is little to do with true martial arts practise, certainly if it is presenting the NTKO and such like to an 'open' market.

There is alot I dont understand about physical martial arts, let alone 'ki' based excersise and application, I remain open minded as my studies open new doors, with a begining in shiatsu massage which im sure is going to teach me things I never would have thought, are possible.

However the fact is that this stuff sells, big time. People are happy to pay top $ to look at this stuff and not challange it, Mr Dillman is clever enough to capitalise on this fact, and does so in a very 'business' like way.

Is it for me, no way. Im happy training with my instructors who deal in reality and do not 'hype' or 'market', in fact destroy true karate.

NTKO may work in set circumstances on certain people, at certain times - do I really care - only when its presentation distorts the worlds view on proper martial arts, yep then I care. Will I get over it.............

Hi guys my Name is Joe Morris, just so you all know I am with DKI but I am not a direct student of Mr. Dillman. I was not there at the taping but I have been to many of his seminars and camps. I think Gavin wanted to here more about our training, I can only speak from my school and my instructors. We train for the streets and to be quite honest with you very rarely do we KO someone in class, we work off of someone coming at you with intent, and only do stationary stuff when we are demonstrating. Since I have been with DKI I have only worked on the NTKO once at my instructors school, and only once at my own. This is not a big part of my training, nor my instructors do I believe it yes I do, do I practice it rarely. Like I said before I am and always will be with DKI to much knowledge not to be, and I agree that this video does not show us in good light, but NG will make this look however is best for them to make money.

Hi Joe, thanks for posting! I've got to say the way you introduced yourself was like you were attending an AA meeting, "Hi my name is Joe Morris, and I'm DKI!"

I was pretty much sure that was the case, that the NTKO's and even the PP K.O's were part for demo's only. The trouble is that that this is all most of the world actually see of the DKI. As I mentioned in a previous response I've been involved in one of these demo's done but none other than Leon Jay, and felt nada! I will state again for the record that topics covered by Dillman were superb, Bunkai, stances and anatomy, all covered brilliantly. That's what the DKI should be famous for, not NTKO's.

With regards to NG doing this to make Dillman look bad and trying to make money, I honestly can't see how Dillman didn't see that coming. He is not a stupid man, and a superb martketeer. Why on earth did he even agree to put something in front of the camera's that might fail and turn him into a laughing stock? Especially after the James Cameron embrassment. Equally why do the NTKO's, both sound and chi, feature so heavily on the websites of DKI worldwide, when those within the DKI readily admit that it is a pretty unrealiable technique? The only reason I can put forward is money and publicity. In which case, this puts them on the same side as NG. Maybe its a case of any publicity is a good publicity, I'll put money that after that show you get hundreds just coming to see what it is all about!

As an outsider, and one who was looking at becoming an insider, it just screams McDojo. People who are more concerned with making money by promoting seemingly magical abilities which fail outside of the Dojo.

As you probably gathered from previous posts I am pro-DSI, they have the knowledge and have their feet firmly on the ground. I'm even swayed towards the K.I lot over the DKI now in light of the recent publicity. Evan has posted some very realistic opinions on NTKO's on www.kyusho.com, after reading his comments I now have alot more respect for his organisation.

I know that this could all get very political, but the way I see it, as an outsider, the DKI seems worried that it is loosing ground to the other top organisations. Their response, promotion of the stuff mentioned above.

Once again Joe, thanks for taking part in this debate....oh, and welcome to fightingarts!

Hi Gavin,I was really expecting your answer about this topic, and so I want to answer to you step by step.

"As you so rightly said, NTKO's are bullshit in a real life fight, but if this is the case why go on world wide TV and promote it as a fighting technique? Whether Dillman said it or not, this is how it is precieved to the outside world. If doesn't work in real life, its not a fighting technique. If its not a fighting technique, its not Martial Arts in my opinion."

Sure, Dillman is exeeding with the NTKO, and sure, DKI is becoming a supermarket with Dillman as president. But DKI is, for that I KNOW, one of the few ( I want to repeat for that I know) organizations that offer high level MA now (if you have money). I have done wadoryu karate in my country for 8 years, and I can say that I can put my wadoryu third degree black belt on the basket. My old master, he don't know this, was a cherlatan. He don't know no one good explanation for kata, don't know any pressure point, or if he know 2 or 3 points don't know the angle and the method of activation, the movement that he perfomed were totally incorrect, he don't know anything about TCM, he don't know anything about boxing tecniques, he don't know ANYTHING!!! I think that those persons are cherlatans, and I was stupid to follow HIM. But I am with you when you say that there are many wrong things in DKI... many mean more than one or two.I agree with you when you say that if a techinque isn't applyable to fight isn't MA. But, in my opinion, there are few things not appliable. I think that NTKO can be applied to MA. When you strike (with contact) you can project your energy as in the NTKO obtaining really good results. But when you're training you have to imagine to project your energy out of your body, as in the NTKO.

"Recently, virtually all of the publicity about the DKI has been around the NTKO"

I think that this will be a cancer for DKI, in my dojo I will not publicy MA so focusing on NTKO and probably I will show NTKO only to advanced trainers.

"I especially want the NTKO stuff kept out of Martial Arts until it is fully understood and can be be used consistently."

I think that NTKO do smiling, to an expert, but a to a beginner open his mind. I was been really happy if I will see a NTKO or a PPKO when I was doing WADORYU karate, So i will sent my master to hell without lose time for 8 years.

"I want to see the DKI going back to what it does best, Kata Bunkai and PP research. I especially want to see it start developing effective combat ready PP attacks, that would work under the effects of adrenaline and against agressive violent opponents."

This is a work that we are doing. I think that Dillman take a board and on it put:-PP-Kata bunkai-TCM-PPKO-NTKO-Energy projection-Ryukyu Kempo-Small Circle Jujitsu-Kiai Jitsu-Weapons-Real fight And after say:- This is the level of the MA that we done, these things we teach!-

"Until that time I don't think the DKI will earn any respect whatsoever, which is truely a shame."

I know that DKI is losing a lot of person but believe to me this magic aspects are only appearances ( a really bad appearances). when you're examined in DKI and also directly by George he don't want to see NTKO or energy projection but skillness, knowledge and REALTY, REALTY and REALTY.

"PS. I hope this wasn't offensive to you, I'm just trying to be honest."

Don't say strangeries, I am really, really, really happy to find a person like you

" I would really like to talk TCM and stuff with you privately"

I hope for a long time

"but I think the issues I have with this stuff is the same as the rest of the guys on this forum."I know and I understand you and the other guys, I know that there are also some bad things in DKI (generally I agree for 70% with you), but there are also a general misreding about DKI.This sharing is becoming really useful and also is becoming a good conversation I hope to continue our sharing also privately and about other topicsBye

I understand what you are saying about NTKOs, but let me touch on the sound NTKO of sound is not something that I would use but I would use the sound theory in fighting. It does add to your hit. You are right Mr. Dillman is not a dumb man, but NG presented this to him in a different way than they showed it (from my understanding) I do not know everything that was discussed, but I do know that they told him that they was going to present this differently. I would invite anyone one down to my school just to show that we are not a McDojo, but what we do is very street realistic. THis is not meant to be a challenge only a way for people to see what we do. Thanks Joe Morris

I really beginning to like to you mate! And this topic is going alot further than I thought it would.

The reasons you stated for switching over to the DKI from Wado Ryu, are the precise reasons why I think Dillman deserves respect. In terms of organisations there is also Kyusho International (DSI) and The Dragon Society who are currently very en vouge at the moment. I've been going on about the DSI for quite about now so I'll take a quick moment to clarify why I like them so much.

I've read everything I could get my hands on regarding the PP's, and was left with huge holes in my information. I can cover pretty comprehensively all of the material covered in Dillmans books, and also the bits and pieces on the videos that I have seen of his. The trouble I found was that it was all surface information, I didn't know the science going on behind it. I went on the Dillman seminar, again given bits and pieces. This was so annoying, I can't tell you. I was stuck waiting for the latest tit bits to be thrown down from the DKI (the nearest DKI school is quite a distance from me). I knew where alot of the points were, how to hit them, and even how to stick them into far more practical situations than demonstrated to me, but I had no idea how to put them together. Then I was recomended to take a look a the DSI's site and grab some of their books.

I ordered my first one, "The Western Bubushi" by Rand Cardwell. When it arrived it was like Christmas come early, it blew me away. I imeadiately ordered "Advanced Martial Science" by Mike Patrick, and am still on the first chapter. It was like someone taking away my primary school books and handing me a University Text Book. They explain EVERYTHING! Some of the stuff covered in just these two books isn't covered until the 3rd year of my up and coming Shiatsu course.

Quote: When you strike (with contact) you can project your energy as in the NTKO obtaining really good results. But when you're training you have to imagine to project your energy out of your body, as in the NTKO.

I'll agree that intention contributes a huge part to generating power. When I've been working I've actually had people fall over backwards when I've tried to grab them. I think this has a lot to do with the way the body interprets danger. I do fully believe that we can project our intention, most of us have experienced this sparring against a tough sparring partner. This is why I don't completly rule out the "possibility" of NTKO's, I still think there is a much more logical explanation than Chi. But thats a whole different conversation.

Anyhows, I think everyone is basically in agreement that the DKI is slowly killing itself pubilicly. Hopefully with the light of recent publicity, they might change tact. Fingers crossed.

Quote: THis is not meant to be a challenge only a way for people to see what we do.

Oh, erm, sorry!

Where to you teach mate?

Is the sound stuff just a Kiai?

Gav

I teach in Lawrenceburg, IN USA (but I will be in England sometime next year)On the sound no it is not just a Kiai, here is an experiment hit a traing partner through a pad as hard as you can (hell even Kiai), after you have done this hit him as hard as you can again but this time yell ho and project it at him see if he can tell the difference but don't tell him what you are doing before you do it

Quote:I'm not hitting the pads till the weekend, I'll give it a go then! Thanks.

When you over in UK, if you're teaching could I pop along? Mind you after everything I've said about DKI, I understand if its a no!

Oh I won't be teaching, I will be over there to visit my sister in law, she is about an hour outside of london. But what I was getting at if you are in that area I would be more than willing to come down to your area and show some stuff and if you wanted learn some stuff from you (this is all assuming my wife will allow me)

That'll be brilliant! I'm about hour outside of London to! Where about's is your sister-in-laws home? To convince your wife, tell her that I live in Southend on Sea, one of the UK's top seaside resorts. It is where all of the coolest people in the UK go in their spare time. Any of our UK forum members will vouch for it!

If you ever want a chat offline about stuff or when you get over here to the UK my email address is gavin@gosokempo.com...drop me a line I think we could have a few interesting discussions!

I'll stay off of the NTKO because everyone should know my opinions on this.

DKI is a wonderful organization, with nothing but the best people you could ever hope to meet. There are also some very talented martial artists that belong to the org as well. There is among many of the top students of George a wealth of kyusho/tuite information that one would be a moron to pass up but does everyone who wears a DKI patch have what we will call 'the stuff'...no

That being said, what you see in the seminars is not 'the stuff' either. The seminars are a marketinng tool. They are meant to impress martial artists who do not have any of this information that it would be a good thing to get nvolved with DKI and host more seminars, buy books, videos and what not. That's all. The deeper information is not passed on during these sessions, I don't care what they are labled. 'Super Secret - Advanced KO clinic' is nothing more than a regular seminar. Some deeper information is passed on at the Camps in Deer Lake, but most of the best information is passed on over beer and karaoke or at dinner. Hell one of the best techniques and deeper meaningsI ever recieved from George was while waiting for his plane to depart at the airport (hurt like hell too).

So I guess the message about DKI is that it is like a brotherhood and the more you get ensconced the better secret hand-shakes you will learn. But know this, the information is there.

I know that DKI's numbers have been dropping over the last few years, and they have lost some very key people. This may account for the push of the NTKO/energy stuff. George may feel like he has to do something drastic to keep the rest on board. Rick Moneymaker split off first and formed TKI(To-Ri Karate Institute) then the Dragon Society and now DSI a few top people went with this wave. Next to go was Evan Pantazi when he formed Kyusho International and took Jim Corn, Mark Kline and Gary Rooks. Which really blows my mind. Especially Mark who followed George around like a puppy for years (even dressing like him). IIRC Jack Hogan has left as well and taken a group with him. I have the utmost respect for Ed Lake and Will Higginbotham who have stayed true to George through all of this. So it may be that this is an effort to keep people from jumping ship.

I will be seeing George on the 24th of Sept. and plan to talk about all of this with him. For those who don't know I used to be the DKI rep for Texas. George (and Kim) are still good friends and I'll go to the mat to personally defend the character of George and DKI.

Gavin...Russell is 'cows tits' over there across the pond. You will not find any better information in the UK on PP fighting, waveforms and BAR. I dont feel that you would benefit from DKI because you are too far to get anthing other than the occasional seminar.

I will e-mail you privately about the DSI.

--KM

_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Oh, Kempoman me old mucker was wondering how long it would take for you to pipe up!

Even though I have said some pretty damning things about the DKI, I hope I've still made it clear the I hold both George Dillman and Leon Jay in the highest regards as MA's. I just really wanted to express my sheer disapointment with the route that they are taking at the moment.

For the anti-Dillman forum members, hopefully KM's comments will help you see beyond all the bullshit that has done. I'd be really interested to hear what George has to say about it all.

Scott - Thanks for the advice about Russell, not that I really had any doubts, but its always good to know that someone of your experience holds him it such high regards. If I survive the week I'll be sure to post my experiences. Trouble is, I was a bit cheeky to Russell over the email and he said he is going to set Herol Graham on me....so I'm not holding high hopes of returning in one piece! Can't weight for the scoop of the DSI, sounds interesting1

Quote:Even though I have said some pretty damning things about the DKI, I hope I've still made it clear the I hold both George Dillman and Leon Jay in the highest regards as MA's. I just really wanted to express my sheer disapointment with the route that they are taking at the moment.

Absolutley. I did not take anything you have said as anti-Dillman.

Quote:Scott - Thanks for the advice about Russell, not that I really had any doubts, but its always good to know that someone of your experience holds him it such high regards. If I survive the week I'll be sure to post my experiences. Trouble is, I was a bit cheeky to Russell over the email and he said he is going to set Herol Graham on me....so I'm not holding high hopes of returning in one piece!

Bombs away!

Quote:Can't weight for the scoop of the DSI, sounds interesting

Oh, you have no idea. The entire DKI/DSI saga with a sprinkle of Oyata people would delight for days on end.

--KM

_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Gavin and MMAA you all are welcome to come down to the dojoi I pracitce in. Check the site out www.zendoryu.com there are KO videos, no touch ko videos and location of the place. It is in London give the place a call or even better just show up and have a look. People from Manchester come to this dojo thats to show you how good the man is.

Ok as for the no-touch Ko I think it definatley won't work on the streets yet. As for it being real I honestly don't know maybe it affects some people and not others? Is that the reason G Dillman believes in it?. I hate the fact that people think that no touch ko makes up the whole of kyusho-jitsu, it's only a very small part of it. I must say PP ko's are for real though I was once a disbeliever but after I nearly accidently knocked out students and friends with just a small tap and have had it demonstarted on me I definatley think it works. I dont know about the kyusho jitsu classes in america but the one am doing is pretty must mostly self defense techniques. Like 80 percent. I say this because alot of people say the techniques won't work on the streets, that we only do kata and no touch bs. Thats not true. I would recommend to anyone who doubts PP to attend a good class.

Guys, I want to apologize for my earlier, immature outburst. Having read a bit more into this thread, I feel that my response was out of line.

I have respect for George Dillman's past accomplishments. I find it hard to divorce my feelings of those and his current mass-marketing tactics. His current direction is disturbing, but that does not negate what he has done in the past.

I have also seen Leon Jay on video (thanks, RazorFoot), and was quite impressed with what I saw. Again, the current direction with the NTKO's is very disturbing to me, but does not negate his other skills.

I am just frustrated at the beating that MA is taking when the mass-marketing approach is being heralded as the new direction for MA.

Blah.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

That was the biggest bunch of BS I have seen in a while. Pathetic!!!!!

A RIDDLE WRAPPED IN A MYSTERY INSIDE AN ENIGMA THAT IS COVERED IN COMPLETE BS.

I had to stop watching when I saw the jr. black belt throwing a Chi-ball. Garbage. I can't believe a formerly reputable martial artist promotes this crap, and I further can't believe that anyone else FALLS FOR IT!!

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! IDIOTS!!!!!!!

You are very correct in your assment of all of this Matt. I wish that the direction was different as well.

--KM

_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Why do people move on from the DKI, there are a number of reasons (in no particular order).

1. Personal differences with the group head.2. A desire to keep ones students cashflow for other choices.3. A desire to make money instead of sharing it with someone else.4. As most large fields of study have multiple areas where different opinions might change the nature of study, and the martial arts are no simple field of study, it is a natural occurance when some change their points of view and move on to explore them with like minded individuals.5. The individuals in the group, while obtaining information of value from the group, are really not full time students of the group head (ie spending decades non-stop to learn the art), so there is less reason to remain there once immediate needs have been fulfilled.6. When you're selling something, the purchaser has the right to change their mind, after all it is their money.7. Perhaps people said and did things to obtain what they wished, and then reaching that point, other personal opinions hold greater merit.8. They're following the fine example their leader set. When the leader trains a bit and moves on for personal growth, gain, fame, and everyone saw it occur, they have every reason to follow the same fine example and try hard to reach the same pinnacle of success where their own students in turn can turn their back on them too.9 And of course the ever popular 'All of the Above'.

Jango, thank you for the kind offer. Your Sensei Paul Bowman is an awesome Martial Artist, I've had the pleasure of meeting him briefly at a couple of seminars, I was really impressed with the demo I saw him do at the first SENI. He is a really nice guy, and I think someone would catch a cold if they attacked, the guys tiny! A pocket sized killing machine! I'm really really busy at the moment plus I really want to concerntrate on my Shiatsu and OCI studies at the moment.

Hopefully this thread has actually done the DKI some good, its given the guys here to actually chat with DKI members and also given the DKI a chance to show what else the DKI is upto other than NTKO's. Fingers crossed that some lessons will be learnt by the DKI's top brass over the whole saga. Here's wishing the DKI a long and bright future!

This Dillman pressure point knockout stuff is a joke. I can't believe anyone studies this. I spoke to a neurologist and he almost fell out of his chair when I asked if someone could be knocked out by simply applying pressure to a spot on their neck. According to him and my own personal belief it is not going to happen. Unless that pressure is a choke of course. The people that fall down at his seminars are like the people that fall down when a preacher touches them. Starved for attention and needing to believe something works.

I'm affraid that I disagree with you there mate. If you don't believe in the Chi/Qi explanation of it look at it from a neurological point of view. If you send the brain more signals than it can process it will shut down, I'm sure your neurologist friend will confirm this. Take some time to research where some PP's lie, and then have a look at what nerve clusters sit around that point. Alot of the PP knockouts can be explained very simply as a neurological overload that causes the brain to "shut down" to avoid damage. Some though can only be explained from a TCM point of view. Either way, as far as I'm concerned as long as people are put in pain, I really don't care how it works, just that it does.

With regards to people falling over when the preachers touch them to the head, this is nothing more than a trick that utilizes the same theory of a forced neurological shutdown by overloading the brain. The spot they strike is a cluster of Gall Bladder points shown here. When preachers "touch" here, people claim to see white lights, feel faint and sometimes blackout. Anyone can do this, just thud down into these points with both with both hands on each side of the head downwards the base of the spine using the palms of the hand. If you look at the Preachers when they do this, they'll usually combine it with frantic body movements (as they are taken with the holy spirit) and then violently smash into the Gall Bladder cluster. People fall over claiming to be touched by a divine force, I've replicated this many times, and as much as I'd like to think I'm a divine force, I think the explanation is slightly more earthly.

Wally Jay once said that "Pain makes believers", its very easy to dismiss something you've never experienced. I really recomend actually feeling someone whap a few points on you before completely calling foul.

I don't doubt that there are spots on the body when hit hard that result in a KO. I also know that there are points where pressure will result in pain but that is a far cry from this Dillman one touch knock out nonsense. If this worked it would be the ultimate martial art. Why roll with people if you can just touch them and knock them out? Why is Dillman a fringe martial artist instead of mainstream? Why hasn't one guy in the UFC or Pride just touched a guy's neck and knocked him out? There is no rule against it. I'll tell you why. Because he can"t. It is impossible. Let some Dillman guys enter the UFC and one touch Arlovski or MattHughes and incapacitate them and I will retract everything I have said. P.S The system you have a link to is full of strikes etc...why bother just touch the guy and the fight is over.

I usually dont get dragged into debates as to what would work in a fight, what is real and what isnt real...but this one hits a nerve (no pun intended) with me. The NTKO was not meant to replace hitting. It was originally designed to prove that the energy existed. That it could be manipulated and that it could "enhance" your pressure point work. It is done for demonstration purposes and I think that is where I get upset.

I happened to be a very close friend of George Dillman and I can insure you 100% that in a real fight he is not going to try to NTKO you. He is going to hit you, albeit on pressure points, and hard.

It is just like the KO's done using pressure points. People get so hung up on them that they miss the point. Pressure points are entryways into the human nerve structure. I dont care who you are or what art you do, you use nerve points to some extent. They are there to make your techniques more effective, painful etc. Wally Jay does a tricep tendon arm bar, that just happened to be a pressure point. Gracie Jujitsu using points on the inside of the legs to pass the guard, just happens to be a pressure point.

Every style uses at least one. They may not call it that but I may have different names for one technique that some else has another.

We and I mean DKI are NOT trying to replace any martial arts system nor are we trying to say that we have some superpower that others do not nor are we saying to stop hitting, kicking, throwing and locking. We are simply sharing what we have in hopes that maybe it might help expand knowledge and enhance the arts, We do NOT believe we have all the answers. We actually believe in looking for them, never ever giving up the search for better more effective ways of defending. That is why DKI is made up of so many different and diverse arts instead of just one art.

Matt, thank you for posting. I'm a fan of your posts on the DKI forum.

My point is, and I hope I highlighted in the post (especially if your a friend of George) is that this stuff shown in the documentary is what sticks in peoples minds. I've personally had George Dillman stick a point on me that sank me to the floor, I accept that as real. Moving me in a line at Starbucks? I'm afraid I think this crap damages the reputation of PP fighters (including yourself). I was personally involved in a Leon Jay experiment and felt nothing. I still stand by those comments and all that I have made in this thread, I hope you don't take that as offensive, I just see things from the point of reality.

Quote:The NTKO was not meant to replace hitting. It was originally designed to prove that the energy existed. That it could be manipulated and that it could "enhance" your pressure point work. It is done for demonstration purposes and I think that is where I get upset.

It may have been what it was originally designed to prove ,but it has seemed to take on a life of its own (as things often do) and seems to have become the 'goal' for many people working with kyusho/tuite these days. That is where I have the problem.

Quote:I happened to be a very close friend of George Dillman and I can insure you 100% that in a real fight he is not going to try to NTKO you. He is going to hit you, albeit on pressure points, and hard.

I am a friend of George and Kim as well and agree that he will take you down, and it looks nothing like the seminar stuff.

Quote:It is just like the KO's done using pressure points. People get so hung up on them that they miss the point. Pressure points are entryways into the human nerve structure.

Now this is an excellent point and one I like to make as often as I can. Many people mistake what goes on in open seminars for 'all that DKI' has to offer. It isn't. There are some very knowledgeable people with DKI and there is great info there, you just shouldn't look to the seminars to get it, problem being people do. The KO's are great but it is not all that the study of kyusho/tuite have to offer.

Quote:We and I mean DKI are NOT trying to replace any martial arts system nor are we trying to say that we have some superpower that others do not nor are we saying to stop hitting, kicking, throwing and locking. We are simply sharing what we have in hopes that maybe it might help expand knowledge and enhance the arts, We do NOT believe we have all the answers. We actually believe in looking for them, never ever giving up the search for better more effective ways of defending. That is why DKI is made up of so many different and diverse arts instead of just one art.

Dillman Karate International is a great organization and has some of the best people you can know as well as some martial artists with vast info on kyusho and tuite. There are bad apples like in every organization as well as people who just don't get it. But as far as George well he's a peach. We didn't get to see him here in Houston due to the hurricane but hopefully Al Garza will reschedule.

Thanks for joining the forum Matt. Please continue to contribute.

-KM

_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Firstly I have to say – I haven’t readed nor wroted to too many forums, but here I feel that I should give my input on this subject. Hopefully this does not come too late. Somehow I feel that here are honest & humble people talking civilized way. So, I try to make this short…

I have been studying pressure points since 1993. I was with DKI over 10 years, George is in my humble opinion a man with great ability, but what comes to National Geography documentary - its far more, than bullshit. Also the explanations why it didn't work is BS too. I saw the reaction of a scientist to Leon Jay’s projection, but they didn’t say that on TV.

Still remember this clearly, back in April 1997, while visiting at George’s home I asked him about one PPKO technique (humbly willing to learn) – He explained it to me, as well did it to me. After that it took several years to fully understand what happened, why it happened and how to do it. This particular technique opened to me just about a month ago (2005). Now, during the last two weeks, I have done it to several different persons, with success rate 100%. What actually Dillman showed and explained was just a one part of it. Study goes forward…

I have spoken to neurologists, doctors, shiatsu healers, acupuncturists, chiropractics, energy healers – all of them has ‘given’ a piece to this puzzle.

IMHO (in my humble opinnion) no-one needs to study meridians and TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) to learn kyusho. Why? Because TCM theories will just explain what has already happened, and helps to understand what to restore/heal - but NOT what to do to cause such things. On the view point of MWM (Modern Western Medicine), there are nerves underlying on the pp’s (pressure points). But even that will not fully explain this.

Personally, I did show NT type techniques at public, too early. Too early means that I wasn’t understanding it enough when started doing it.

Nowadays I teach regularly around the world kata bunkai and related things with pressure points and including things what we have founded. Also, success rate on NT’s is increased from 70% and continue the path upwards, maybe I would not or I might do that on street.

Someone on this forum with this topic said that all what he could find from George’s seminars, books & tapes, was basic pieces, partially true. I was following DKI quite intensive – and many times saw similar technique performed but every time it was slightly different way to do it. There are many different ways to do that.

When George (or Kim) does a technique it certainly looks like something else, than what the truth is. It seems that he hits like a truck, but the truth IS different. Many of GD's techniques are designed to be so clever, that no-one can see the correct answer directly from his seminars, books or videos (VHS or DVD), but the answers are there.

I can assure that pressure points can cause pain, temporary paralyze, knockout or even death. Also many of these phenomenon's can be done safely to the opponent without any side effects (meaning here short term & long term effects). LOL, not the death part of course..

Fully intensive study, what we have done with my co-instructors so far in PPKO’s and NTKO’s, has given deeper understanding on our own bodies, but also about the opponents body reactions.

If I would stop my own study, every time when find something that I could not do .. I wouldn’t find anything nor learning anything…

What is Chi/Qi/Ki/Prana/Bioenergy? BS? Is there something? What?

My native language is not English, and I bet you can see that.. Hopefully my point can be seen in this text…

Thanks very much for your input, I don't think anyone is arguing the validitiy of PP knockouts, merely the amount of importance that seems to be placed on the NTKO's as a valid combat technique. Many very experienced DKI have agreed both in this thread and privately via email with the concerns that the NTKO's seem to be dominating all the press that the DKI is getting lately.

But, anyway like I said thanks for your input...and if english isn't your first language then it most definately didn't show. Many thanks, and it'd be great if you could become a regular here, we've got quite a few people interested in the PP's....your experience would be gratefully received!

I've been training for about 18 years. Don't really have any real formal Kyusho training to speak of, just a lot of willing training partners. My instructor attended a lot of the early PP seminars in the UK, we got the general idea of to approach striking the points, then just brought some books and a lot of charts and started whacking away. I've spent a lot my PP time trying to utilize them in combat, so haven't really paid that much attention to the TCM side. Although its something I'm starting to get into now, and have began studying Shiatsu.

Gavin, Why are you looking for the study of TCM? What do you think the benefits of studying that are? For kyusho-purposes?

Back to topic - NTKO'sTo make them work more than just occassionally or just for sensitive persons, one must understand what makes it work. Is here anyone who can perform such a technque on someone, in this case I do not care if its done to sensitive person etc.

Like I asked on previous post in the longer one - what is chi/qi/ki? I might have some answers, but what do you folks think?

Quote: Gavin, Why are you looking for the study of TCM? What do you think the benefits of studying that are? For kyusho-purposes?

Seems a strange question coming from a DKI guy. Shiatsu encompasses a huge amount of information of the inner workings of the entire body from both a Westerm and Eastern perspective. I feel that anything I learn about how the body is put together will allow me to better understand how to take it apart. Also I spent a hell of a lot of my life studying how to hurt people, learning to heal seems like a nice way to add a bit of balance to it....yin and yang and all that. From a Kyusho point of view, all the laws that explain how kyusho and tuite work come from TCM, the greater my understanding of kyusho and tuite will be.

The study of Shiatsu is already benefitting me in ways I never thought possible in both my Martial and persnonal lives, and I've only just started.

On NTKO's

I've heard it said that they work better when someone is angry or stressed. If this is true, then do you feel that they would work better in a real street confrontation due to the hightend stress response of actual combat?

Its my personal belief (in my very limited experience of energy projection) that many of the NTKO's can be more easily explained from a psychological point of view than a more energetic based one. This is all from a point of ignorance ofcourse. If we were to look at it fron an energetic point of view, would you mind giving us a brief explanation of what is causing the K.O from an energy point of view? I notice a lot of the NTKO involve the personal performing the KO to place their hand near the GB cluster on the top of the head and the other near GB20. I know the GB meridain is a favourite for PP K.O's, are you directly stimulating the GB points with the NTKO stuff?

Its my personal belief (in my very limited experience of energy projection) that many of the NTKO's can be more easily explained from a psychological point of view than a more energetic based one. This is all from a point of ignorance ofcourse. If we were to look at it fron an energetic point of view, would you mind giving us a brief explanation of what is causing the K.O from an energy point of view? I notice a lot of the NTKO involve the personal performing the KO to place their hand near the GB cluster on the top of the head and the other near GB20. I know the GB meridain is a favourite for PP K.O's, are you directly stimulating the GB points with the NTKO stuff?

Gav

You and Butterfly seem to have the opinions that we should look at this from a scientific, psychological point of view....I would like to join! (the Three Musketeers, huzzah!)

Before anyone posts anything else, y'all should look up as much info on hypnosis and the placebo effect as humanly possible (and make sure the sources are genuine).

Basically, as far as I know, Hypnosis is still widely debated, but most psychologists tend to agree that the people who are successfully hypnotized WANTED to be hypnotized. The people who came into the experiment thinking it was all Bull weren't hypnotized.

And the placebo effect is a GREAT explanation of no touch knock-outs. So spend some time doing this before saying things like, "I SAW it, it's REAL!" or "I WAS knocked out" or "there's no PROOF for any of it".

To add discussion to the last: there's no proof of the existence of a god or gods. But hence the reason it's called "faith"...

I had an Internet link to a video that showed a “NO TOUCH KNOCK OUT” but due to the owner of that video threatening to take legal action against me, I have had to remove it. Even without the link, I know you will find the below posting very very interesting !!!!!!!!! I know this post might be offensive to some in this forum, but knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power !!!!!!!

Darren

Let’s expose this guy for what he is …….. a charlatan and an entertainer. What he is doing is nothing more that a techniques that is called “Waking Hypnosis” or “Hypersuggestability”. Since I have a background in this topic, I am a Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist and working towards my masters in NLP, lets break down what we have just seen in this video.

There are a number of ways to place a “WILLING and COOPERATIVE” person into a state of hypnosis, one of which is “waking hypnosis”. The best way to explain waking hypnosis is when a person in authority, such as a Doctor, tells you that you have only got two weeks to live, and then bang, you die in two weeks. You the client believe without question that the doctor must be right because he is the expert, so his “suggestion” you are going to die in two weeks must be correct and thus the conscious and more importantly the subconscious accept this “suggestion” 100%. Remember that the mind guides the body !!!!!!

In this video, the person in authority is the Instructor, who is demonstrating this “magical” technique to participants who want to be there and learn ( read WILLING and COOPERATIVE). In fact, you can hear the group calling him Sir, this now “anchors” to everyone, that he is a “person in authority” which is needed to make “Waking Hypnosis” work.

Next, lets look at how he “plants” the “suggestion” you will be knocked out, into the participants subconscious. First, the instructor obviously asked for volunteers. If a person volunteers, it tells the person in authority (hypnotist) that the person is definitely “Willing and Cooperative” and therefore more susceptible to suggestion. Although we did not see it in the video, I am also sure that this instructor conducted some very easy “suggestibility tests”, without letting the participants knowing of course, prior to his demonstration to ensure that he picked the right volunteers to demonstrate on. Heaven forbid he pick someone who would not respond to his suggestion, to do so would result in loss of face and more importantly loss of MONEY to him !!!!!!!!!

Next, The instructor prior to actually performing this “amazing” knock out technique, further “anchors” his suggestion to each participant, by slowly demonstrating what he was going to do to each student. He does this using a technique known as a “Hypnotic Equation”. A hypnotic equation is basically where the instructor is replacing one action with another. In this case, on the first three students, he suggests that when pain or pressure is felt by me striking you, you will go unconscious. This is a classic “Hypnotic Equation” He further anchors this suggestion by showing ( through demonstration first) what each student will do when he performs/applies his “magical” and “awesome” technique……… again give me a break !!!!!!!!

So now, lets look at the actual applications/techniques used by this Instructor. Prior to the actual demonstration, you will not that the instructor uses some humor ( says “ it’s over, did you see that”) to get the group, including his victims, to laugh. Why, because FEAR is one of the factors that can prevent an “induction” from taking place. This is a distraction technique that is used to calm people prior to an “induction”, in this case the technique of “Waking Hypnosis”. A calmer participant = higher suggestibility which = they will do what I need them to do.

Victim#1: Instructor first uses a technique known in hypnosis as a “misdirection”. A misdirection is used to increase a clients receptiveness a suggestibility due to the fact that the conscious brain is reaction as it should thus opening up the subconscious brain to suggestion. The misdirection technique is where the instructor first kicks the inside of the student’s right leg to get a pre-designated response that would happen. Because this worked, the students subconscious mind is now “wide open” to the instructors suggestion which he anchored earlier. The instructor now touches the student’s left side of the head (previously anchored hypnotic equation) at which time the student, “magically” and in “awe” of the group is knocked out and falls to the ground. What one should note, is that when in a state of hypnosis, a participant is still fully in control of his body. If you look closely, you will see victim #1 put his hand out to protect himself as he falls to the ground. If you compare this to an actual knockout, as you see in boxing, the body will fall to the ground like a marionette puppet whose strings have been cut. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THIS CASE . Further, after apparently being knocked out and falling to the ground, you will hear the instructor state “back up” (suggestion) to victim #1, touches his head (anchor), at which time the student himself without any real help goes into a seated crossed leg position with his head up, just as the instructor “suggested” he do.

Victim#2: again instructor uses “misdirection techniques” by touching/blocking both arms. He then lifts both hands directly above and to the front of the victims forehead. This technique is known as an “Eye Fascination”. If I can get a person to do an eye/lid lift, it places one’s brain activity into a state of “alpha”. When the brain is in a state of alpha, a person becomes more suggestible. Instructor then strikes the victim in the chest with both hands ( anchored hypnotic equation) at which time the victim falls to the ground unconscious. Again notice that as this victim falls, he puts his hands out to protect himself from the fall. Also how once again the instructor goes over to this victim once grounded, again touches him (anchor) and then says “head up” at which time the victim immediately does as he is told.

Victim#3: again instructor uses “misdirection technique” and then uses and “anchored hypnotic equation, by striking the subject to both side of his neck. Again watch how this victim falls, and also note how the instructor again touches the subject after this knock out.

Victim #4: This is a very interesting one to watch, and more importantly to break down. Again the instructor uses a misdirection technique ( has the student grab him with two hands) but this time the instructor does not use a physical touch of any kind, but places his hands above the victims forehead about 3-4 inches away (eye fascination technique) and through some kind of “magical force” causes the person to go unconscious. What happened here was that the instructor used a technique known as “compounding” to anchor his earlier hypnotic equation that the person would be knocked out. The victim in this case, watched three separate students be knocked out by the instructor. Because of this fact, each time the student saw the instructor knocking someone out, his subconscious mind was being compounded with the “visual fact” that he would be knocked out too, no matter what this instructor did. As well you will note how the instructor causes the person to move his upper body and head backwards. To the unconscious brain, it equates this motion to falling backwards, and with the previously anchored suggestion, and the fact that the student had seen three other of his colleagues go unconscious, the instructors suggestions were “compounded” thus the knockdown. This is the same technique that a lot of “Pentecostal Ministers” use when they touch a person’s head and yell “your healed” at which time that specific member of his flock falls backwards in what others see as an unconscious state.

What I did not share with you, is that I am a Bruce Siddle PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) Instructor. For the past ten years, I have been teaching PPCT techniques to police officers in my department. I have also deployed these same techniques in “real world” scenarios. In fact, I can remember knocking a guy out with a full force fluid shock Brachial Plexus Strike. So can a person be knocked out with PPCT techniques? , given the proper context and opportunity, absolutely!!!! But when people get knocked out with a PPCT technique, they do fall like a marionette puppet who’s strings have been cut, not like the guys in the video who were able to control their fall. How these students fell, were identical to those who are placed into a hypnotic state. I have seen, experienced, and applied both, so can comment on this observation. The fact remains, watch the video frame by frame, and watch how these participants are falling, the proof is right there before your eyes !!!!!

This video proves nothing more than the fact that the instructor is very skilled in the area of hypnosis and suggestibility, period, full stop !!!!!!! Teaching this to students in a self-defense context is both misleading and negligent, period, full stop. It is because of these charlatans who promote this garbage to uneducated people for nothing more than the old mighty buck, that people are getting seriously hurt or even killed when attempting to use this s**t in the real world.

What you saw in this video, I can replicate time and time again. The ONLY reason this instructor was able to make things work for him was because he had WILLING and COOPERATIVE subjects to work with. On the street I’m pretty sure that your attacker will not be so WILLING and COOPERATIVE, Period, full stop.

This instructor is both an entertainer and a CHARLATON who is not teaching self defence (as he had advertised), but rather “self defeat”. Remember, there is the art form of Martial Arts, and the reality of street combatives/self protection. It is my opinion, that this video shows the “art form” and nothing more. To even attempt this stuff in the real world would likely get one seriously injured, or even killed

I know that this is a heated topic amongst those who believe in this stuff, and skeptics like me who see something else other than what is presented before their eyes. This is why magicians are so good at what it is they do. Until recently, the art of magic was a closed shop, no one else could see what the actual trick was. It was not until a few years ago, when the FOX TV network started airing “magic revealed” (presented by a masked professional magician), that those of us not in the know began to understand the parlor tricks behind the magic. Professional magicians went nuts. Why?, because their tricks were revealed. I am starting to see a direct correlation between the mystical part of the martial arts, and the reality of empirical and scientific research !!!!!

Remember, Knowledge and the understanding and application of that Knowledge is POWER. It is with such knowledge that we can effectively educate others about these entertainers and what they are actual doing !!!!

Dillman has always been cutting edge and controversial to anyone teaching the same old tired things that the GI’s brought back from WW2. He teaches “real” Karate unlike all dojos I’ve ever visited in central NY and central Florida. These dojos don’t even understand that there are no blocks in Kata among other elementary knowledge. None really understood that Kata are memory systems that incorporate both grappling and striking techniques that are interchanged or couldn’t show you real interpretations. I’ve had the misfortune of having to defend myself thrice over the past 15 years using the Dillman theory to devastating results for my opponent. It is very real. Anything Dillman says you can pretty much take it as gospel. If something seems untrue you failed to understand what he is talking about. I have no doubt he is the greatest martial artist walking the earth. He is also a great person with a lot of charisma and fun to be around. He has set up his affiliated schools to draw feedback and coordination into the understanding of martial arts and has recorded them for future generationsto a very deep level. To anyone that would put him down “you show your arrogance and ignorance” In addition I would caution against spending money or time on any dojo that would denigrate Mr. Dillman and his theory. They simply don’t know what they are talking about and don’t want to appear as charlatans themselves. Go directly to Mr. Dillman if you have any questions as I’m am sure he would answer them for himself. Lee Abend