Religion, what's the big stink? I'm leaving this one wide open. Feel free to convince me that there's more than "tales" about all this snazzy hoopla. Merry Christmas all. The pope sure was on his A game tonight.

Well, as another unbeliever I'll just say that faith isn't something that most people arrive at rationally. Either you believe or you don't, usually because you did or didn't absorb your enculturation. When I was little I pretended to believe in God and Bible stories to please the adults and to fit in with the other kids, and discovering that I didn't actually believe in it was a long hard process.

I know that's not true for everyone; plenty of people gain or lose faith as adults. But that's usually due to some intense personal experience rather than argument.

Point is that I doubt that anybody can post anything that will enlighten you. Most likely nobody will try because your tone seems confrontational. I'm only posting because I've got nothing else to do on this holiday afternoon and I've had too much coffee to take a nap!

There's a good reason that religion is described with the word "faith". It's all about personal belief. Had there been empirical evidence that any religion was true, it would stop being a religion and would become a theory.

Well, as another unbeliever I'll just say that faith isn't something that most people arrive at rationally. Either you believe or you don't, usually because you did or didn't absorb your enculturation. When I was little I pretended to believe in God and Bible stories to please the adults and to fit in with the other kids, and discovering that I didn't actually believe in it was a long hard process.

I know that's not true for everyone; plenty of people gain or lose faith as adults. But that's usually due to some intense personal experience rather than argument.

Point is that I doubt that anybody can post anything that will enlighten you. Most likely nobody will try because your tone seems confrontational. I'm only posting because I've got nothing else to do on this holiday afternoon and I've had too much coffee to take a nap!

Sorry I wasn't trying to be confrontation. Lack of sleep and being bombarded by crazy shoppers might have made me a little pissy I`ll admit. This "thinking process" started after I watched a bit of the Pope`s "speech", its, to me, crazy that this many people follow something that is so unclear for different, not factual reasons. I surely could have worded things differently. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Hell, this Pope sort of makes me like him. Seems like an all around good guy trying to be reasonable about religion. Some of my fundamentalist Christian friends could learn something from him.

I like how you started the post with the word "hell". Yeah, I notice he has something other popes didn't. Not sure what it is but is agree he seems to be a better candidate than most from what I've seen.

ooh, you missed a chance to make this a poll and finally see how many of each faith/non-faith there are here.

as for religions, I have no issue with them or their proponents. Unless they openly call for the death of followers of another religion or tell them that they're going to hell for worshiping the wrong one. those ones can fuck right the hell off the planet as far as I'm concerned. your belief doesn't invalidate another, just because you say it to be true, no more than my unbelief invalidates yours. as Jim Jefferies puts it best, Try not to be a cunt (to one another)

regarding the current pope, I'll now steal this line:

I must admit, against all better judgement, I like this Duke Pope

he's putting more emphasis on helping than speaking out against the usual targets.

The problem with asking people to defend a faith based belief system is its only defense for belief is faith. There is no middle ground between belief based on faith and belief based on empirical evidence. Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Christians tend to be against abortion, so by their eyes they are trying to protect life for others. Things like this go against rshetts2's paragraph. We don't want laws made off of others people's beliefs, believe what you want as long as it's not hurting anyone else, but it could be argued abortions makes other people's lives worse. The religious people feel abortion is affecting others right to life.

Christians tend to be against abortion, so by their eyes they are trying to protect life for others. Things like this go against rshetts2's paragraph. We don't want laws made off of others people's beliefs, believe what you want as long as it's not hurting anyone else, but it could be argued abortions makes other people's lives worse. The religious people feel abortion is affecting others right to life.

Christians tend to be against abortion, so by their eyes they are trying to protect life for others. Things like this go against rshetts2's paragraph. We don't want laws made off of others people's beliefs, believe what you want as long as it's not hurting anyone else, but it could be argued abortions makes other people's lives worse. The religious people feel abortion is affecting others right to life.

Slippery slope..

Very slippery. Our laws are typically written around Christian beliefs, but we as a nation freely infringe on other religions. We also step on those who don't believe in religion at all. For instance, the abortion stance is 100% based on a Christian based morality, and we have laws constructed around that. What if you are an atheist? You have no moral obligation to God at that point, and thus why should this law apply to you? Additionally, if you look at the hours stores are open you'll find that they all typically close early on Sundays - something based around a religious background. Much of what we do here in the states is heavily couched in Christianity.

As for me, when I clearly saw people I once thought of as Christian brothers and sisters persecute gays, Muslims, atheists, blacks, Jews, and pretty much anyone else that isn't white and Christian, I stopped being one myself. I'm not saying all Christians are that way, far from it, but in my opinion, the people that are representing that 'block' of people politically are dangerous. As a friend of mine once said - "I don't hate the right people to be Christian".

My stance as I've gotten older is that it is better to be a good person and try to do the right thing for as many people as I can than to subscribe to any one affiliation or another. I'm a religious person, but I do not follow religion.

Christians tend to be against abortion, so by their eyes they are trying to protect life for others. Things like this go against rshetts2's paragraph. We don't want laws made off of others people's beliefs, believe what you want as long as it's not hurting anyone else, but it could be argued abortions makes other people's lives worse. The religious people feel abortion is affecting others right to life.

Slippery slope..

Very slippery. Our laws are typically written around Christian beliefs, but we as a nation freely infringe on other religions. We also step on those who don't believe in religion at all. For instance, the abortion stance is 100% based on a Christian based morality, and we have laws constructed around that. What if you are an atheist? You have no moral obligation to God at that point, and thus why should this law apply to you? Additionally, if you look at the hours stores are open you'll find that they all typically close early on Sundays - something based around a religious background. Much of what we do here in the states is heavily couched in Christianity.

As for me, when I clearly saw people I once thought of as Christian brothers and sisters persecute gays, Muslims, atheists, blacks, Jews, and pretty much anyone else that isn't white and Christian, I stopped being one myself. I'm not saying all Christians are that way, far from it, but in my opinion, the people that are representing that 'block' of people politically are dangerous. As a friend of mine once said - "I don't hate the right people to be Christian".

My stance as I've gotten older is that it is better to be a good person and try to do the right thing for as many people as I can than to subscribe to any one affiliation or another. I'm a religious person, but I do not follow religion.

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Well said, my thoughts exactly.

Ditto

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Warning: You will see my penis. -Brian

Just remember: once a user figures out gluten noting them they're allowed to make fun of you. - Ceekay speaking in tongues.

"I'm a spiritual soul - I simply have no interest in organized religion."

My connection to creation and creator is based on adhering to a moral code, and I've not been punished for it (yet). We'll see what we see - but the rules I follow do not require a thick book of policy.

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Well said, my thoughts exactly.

Ditto

and amen!

Logged

Because I can,also because I don't care what you want.XBL: OriginalCeeKayWii U: CeeKay

Myself, I believe everyone has the right to believe as they choose, as long as they in turn respect the beliefs of others and do not use their beliefs to inhibit others from their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom from religious persecution. You can believe in God, Allah, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care along as its what makes your life better and you dont use it to make other peoples lives worse.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1). You use faith everyday you just don't know it. Do you bother to check a chair out completely before you put your full weight down in it? No, neither do I. Why? Because you believe from past experiences that a chair will do its job for you every time.

Rather a weak comparison but you can start to understand the true nature of Faith from it. Its the total assurance of something even though you can't prove it by numbers, visuals, or whatever.There is a group of well known Scientists who travel major Universities around the World debating, Creation vs. evolution. They are basically Scientists who through their careers dealing with sciencehave come to the realization that something like a BIG BANG could'nt have formed something so orderly and precise as our Universe. They teach things that school never would or could. Because the evidence is fairlyhigh and obvious that a, theory based on, cause and effect(basis for evolution) could ever explain our Universe our World our Being.

On a personal, one on one note, how does Faith work? The Bible says, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" The word of God being the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.Couple that with a heart that is searching for something more in this life and is willing to entertain the idea of a loving Creator, A Father of us all. I was told years ago by a very sage old fella to go ahead andask God to prove Himself to you. I did, and He did. You can't really explain that moment when you walk off the end of the limb into thin air and He catches you. Faith, the Bible says without it, you can never "see"God.This World with its negative stance on most things Spiritual looks at this whole Creation thing as nonsense. I tend to feel the same way about the big bang THEORY...Notice all these theories? Meaning, un-provable.There-fore if you believe in evolution, and the big bang theories, then you're already are in the realm of Faith....Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

For me it takes more Faith to believe that out of nothing, with nothing, caused by nothing, all that you see, hear, and feel was by chance, an accident if you will. Sorry, I just can't buy that for one sane moment.

Don't make Faith more than it is, complicating something so precious and life changing by its simplicity. We all have Faith. Its just a matter of what you put it in.

I tend to feel the same way about the big bang THEORY...Notice all these theories? Meaning, un-provable.There-fore if you believe in evolution, and the big bang theories, then you're already are in the realm of Faith

You have no understanding of the term as used in the realm of science.

Quote

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation. Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy.

Your definition of theory is the same as a scientific hypothesis. A hypothesis is an untested idea. Once it has been tested, retested, and reviewed by others and determined to fit the facts of observation, it becomes a big-T Theory. We know how the Theory of Gravity works because we've tested it. Science may not know how it works, but they know that it does. And honestly, science doesn't care about why.

I tend to feel the same way about the big bang THEORY...Notice all these theories? Meaning, un-provable.There-fore if you believe in evolution, and the big bang theories, then you're already are in the realm of Faith

You have no understanding of the term as used in the realm of science.

Quote

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation. Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy.

Your definition of theory is the same as a scientific hypothesis. A hypothesis is an untested idea. Once it has been tested, retested, and reviewed by others and determined to fit the facts of observation, it becomes a big-T Theory. We know how the Theory of Gravity works because we've tested it. Science may not know how it works, but they know that it does. And honestly, science doesn't care about why.

Also, that Theory? It isn't afraid to be challenged, at any time as long as there is sufficient reason to do so.

This is what's wrong with "belief in science". Once a thing has traveled from science to common knowledge, common knowledge often prevents science to challenge its own Theories when required.

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

You use faith everyday you just don't know it. Do you bother to check a chair out completely before you put your full weight down in it? No, neither do I. Why? Because you believe from past experiences that a chair will do its job for you every time.

Rather a weak comparison but you can start to understand the true nature of Faith from it.

It's not a weak comparison. It's a completely faulty comparison. You know a chair will support your weight (though you're also aware that chairs break) based on personal experience. It's not faith, it's essentially the same thing as science. It's a reproducible scenario that you've tested over and over and over throughout your life until you can establish, with near absolute certainty, that your chair will support you. That's the very definition of "theory", a word that you also just revealed that you don't understand.

Faith isn't based on personal experience of observable behavior. It's based on things you are told. You can't observe them. You can't test them. You can't prove them. They are indefinite and fleeting, things that you can only believe in if you have faith in them. Faith is believing in something that can't be observed or reproduced. You've basically created a comparison between two things that are diametrically opposed to each other.

Your post reveals a basic lack of understanding about what we're discussing, and more importantly, what you're discussing. Lack of understanding is fine. We can't all know everything. It's the lack of wanting to understand that is a problem, and your strange comparisons and completely wrong definition of what a theory is strongly implies that you do not want to understand.

Tilt, sorry I just got back to this thread. Easy to say, especially in a forum like this, that one is flawed and yet another isn't.1. you can't prove God doesn't exsist.2. I can't prove God does exsist.3. We both try in our limited human ways to explain why we "do" believe what we do.4. I try to not be inflammatory toward those stumbling along trying to explain what they believe.5. Others are inflammatory, because for some reason religion makes them uncomfortable and its easier to point it back to the person rather than stay on track.

I don't like you Tilt. Just being honest. But I respect your beliefs.Who you are in real life no one knows.But here, here you're an arrogant know it all, who jumps on anyone with a stron belief. Who critizes spelling over the topic.Who attacks the person, instead of the topic at hand.You're just someone who's developed an online persona that has become who we know at "tilt" today.

My picture of faith works for me. Because I have a definition of what faith is. You can't call me up on that. If I want to say Faith in some very small way is like sitting in a chair without checking to see if it can hold you, then give me a different version of what faith is, don't hen peck at my analogies.

But that's you Tilt. Pretty shallow online persona. You might want to work on it. The "theory" of evolution is not, in anyway shape or form scientific fact. Go to a debate in any of the top universities that are hosting the Creation Research Scientists...They will shake you to your core with facts. Theory is that, theory. If it was a proven "fact" it wouldn't be called a theory. Faith is hope in something un-seen. But that does not make if wishful thinking. I can't see Atoms, but they're there. Also, you can't see what scientists call the "cosmic glue" that stops atoms from repelling instead of forming together. Scientists are trying to figure out what this is. I believe I know by Faith. God "holds" all creation in His hands. Without this cosmic glue so called, all materia would explode and cause a formless mess of atoms. I know I ramble, I know I wander off track, but so what. The beginning of this thread was a man asking "whats the fuss about?" Asking to hear what anyone has to say about religion. What most people don't know is that Religion and Faith don't go hand in hand as a rule. I think for the most part, modern organized religion does more to warp peoples understanding of a loving Father creator than any Hollywood movie makers could. My spirituality is based on a relationship of mutual love and acceptance. Its not about doing and not-doing. Its not about right or wrong. Theory..theory (ˈθɪərɪ) n, pl -ries1. a system of rules, procedures, and assumptions used to produce a result

2. abstract knowledge or reasoning***

3. a speculative or conjectural view or idea: I have a theory about that. ***

4. an ideal or hypothetical situation (esp in the phrase in theory)

5. a set of hypotheses related by logical or mathematical arguments to explain and predict a wide variety of connected phenomena in general terms

I don't like you Tilt. Just being honest. But I respect your beliefs.Who you are in real life no one knows.But here, here you're an arrogant know it all, who jumps on anyone with a stron belief. Who critizes spelling over the topic.Who attacks the person, instead of the topic at hand.You're just someone who's developed an online persona that has become who we know at "tilt" today.

Wow Arclight, if you actually want me to read your post, try not to start it with insults and personal attacks. Even better, don't confuse me with someone else, because apart from the part about arrogance, which I can certainly see how you'd get the impression of me being, none of the things you mention are things I do. Feel free to dig up posts that prove otherwise. I very specifically don't engage in ad hominems, which is what you're saying I do. I don't criticize spelling over the topic. I address the topic. I don't attack people (unless they've attacked me first, and even then I try to restrain myself from answering in the same vein. Notice how this post isn't an ad hominem, for example). I attack their arguments. I don't jump on anyone with a strong belief. I challenge those who confuse beliefs with facts, or who use facts they don't understand to explain beliefs they have (this latter part is what I did with you in my last post, for the record).

But let's make it simple: Personal attacks are against the rules for this forum. If you find me committing those, use the report button. In the same vein, I'm using the report button on your post, because it's a personal attack.

I don't like you Tilt. Just being honest. But I respect your beliefs.Who you are in real life no one knows.But here, here you're an arrogant know it all, who jumps on anyone with a stron belief. Who critizes spelling over the topic.Who attacks the person, instead of the topic at hand.You're just someone who's developed an online persona that has become who we know at "tilt" today.

Wow Arclight, if you actually want me to read your post, try not to start it with insults and personal attacks. Even better, don't confuse me with someone else, because apart from the part about arrogance, which I can certainly see how you'd get the impression of me being, none of the things you mention are things I do. Feel free to dig up posts that prove otherwise. I very specifically don't engage in ad hominems, which is what you're saying I do. I don't criticize spelling over the topic. I address the topic. I don't attack people (unless they've attacked me first, and even then I try to restrain myself from answering in the same vein. Notice how this post isn't an ad hominem, for example). I attack their arguments. I don't jump on anyone with a strong belief. I challenge those who confuse beliefs with facts, or who use facts they don't understand to explain beliefs they have (this latter part is what I did with you in my last post, for the record).

But let's make it simple: Personal attacks are against the rules for this forum. If you find me committing those, use the report button. In the same vein, I'm using the report button on your post, because it's a personal attack.

I don't like you Tilt. Just being honest. But I respect your beliefs.Who you are in real life no one knows.But here, here you're an arrogant know it all, who jumps on anyone with a stron belief. Who critizes spelling over the topic.Who attacks the person, instead of the topic at hand.You're just someone who's developed an online persona that has become who we know at "tilt" today.

Wow Arclight, if you actually want me to read your post, try not to start it with insults and personal attacks. Even better, don't confuse me with someone else, because apart from the part about arrogance, which I can certainly see how you'd get the impression of me being, none of the things you mention are things I do. Feel free to dig up posts that prove otherwise. I very specifically don't engage in ad hominems, which is what you're saying I do. I don't criticize spelling over the topic. I address the topic. I don't attack people (unless they've attacked me first, and even then I try to restrain myself from answering in the same vein. Notice how this post isn't an ad hominem, for example). I attack their arguments. I don't jump on anyone with a strong belief. I challenge those who confuse beliefs with facts, or who use facts they don't understand to explain beliefs they have (this latter part is what I did with you in my last post, for the record).

But let's make it simple: Personal attacks are against the rules for this forum. If you find me committing those, use the report button. In the same vein, I'm using the report button on your post, because it's a personal attack.