The Bush administration has authorized the sale of as many as 100 large bunker-buster bombs to Israel. One expert said the move should serve as a warning to Iranians with nuclear ambitions.

The proposed deal, worth as much as $30 million, would provide Israel with the capability to drop 5,000-pound bombs that can penetrate bunkers and other buried structures. The GBU-28 bombs can be dropped from Israel's American-made F-15 fighters.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for economic progress in the Middle East," the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a press release.

Although the proposed sale will give Israel a significant new capability to attack underground targets, the agency said the move would not upset the balance of military power in the region.

"The Israelis want to be able to attack Iran's underground nuclear weapons facilities," said John Pike, a military expert at Globalsecurity.org in Alexandria, Va.

The propose sale should give notice to Tehran that the United States will not allow Iran to become a nuclear power if diplomatic efforts fail, he said.

"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

Lehpron
There is no real proof that Israel has nuclear weapons, but it is accepted as fact by most parties, and the Israelis do not spend any time trying to deny it.
The story is that the CIA arranged for the hijacking of a nuclear material transport shipment from SRP back in 68 or so, and handed the necessary materials over to the Mossad. Now, this is conjecture, but the Israelis are known to have cooperated in the South African nuclear weapons development during the 70s. The alleged special weapons are stored at an air base in ISrael, supposedly ready to be used in case of attack as a means of ultimate defense in case of being overrun by invaders.

An former engineer for the IDFAF came out a few years ago and denounced the program and was thrown in jail for talking about it, so that gives some indication that the Israelis are serious about it.

I think that if Iran develops a weapon and gets to the point of testing it you will see a very ugly exchange in the region.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):The Bush administration has authorized the sale of as many as 100 large bunker-buster bombs to Israel. One expert said the move should serve as a warning to Iranians with nuclear ambitions.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 1):Slightly off topic, what is the story on Israel's nukes? Myth?

I beleive that they have never said officialy that they have nukes. Even if they have or haven't, its obvious that they do.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):An former engineer for the IDFAF came out a few years ago and denounced the program and was thrown in jail for talking about it, so that gives some indication that the Israelis are serious about it.

He did not just denounce it, and it was not a "few years" ago. He was in jail for over a decade and actually knew of what was happening because he saw it with his own eyes. He even documented it.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):I think that if Iran develops a weapon and gets to the point of testing it you will see a very ugly exchange in the region.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):As opposed to allowing Israel to be a nuclear power?

Would someone like to explain why the U.S. would care more that Israel was a nuclear power as opposed to Iran? Just wondering there.

Maybe we can have France help out Iran with their nuclear program(s). Just like they did for Saddam, when they built those two reactors for him, before Israel bombed one and the other didn't have a happy ending either....

I know the U.S. would obviously care that Iran had nukes.... I wasn't wondering about that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The propose sale should give notice to Tehran that the United States will not allow Iran to become a nuclear power if diplomatic efforts fail, he said.

As opposed to allowing Israel to be a nuclear power?

Maybe I should have put that in my first post as my issue of concern. I know very well why Israel would want (and in my opinion should want) nuclear weapons...

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 1):Slightly off topic, what is the story on Israel's nukes? Myth?

They developed them in the late 60s in the event that something like the Yom Kippur war happened. In the Yom Kippur war, Egypt and Syria knew that they could only go so far before Israel nuked them and indeed that was a distinct possibility (The United States has only gone to Defcon III twice, in the Cuban Missile Crisis and during the Yom Kippur war).

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):Lehpron
There is no real proof that Israel has nuclear weapons, but it is accepted as fact by most parties, and the Israelis do not spend any time trying to deny it.
The story is that the CIA arranged for the hijacking of a nuclear material transport shipment from SRP back in 68 or so, and handed the necessary materials over to the Mossad. Now, this is conjecture, but the Israelis are known to have cooperated in the South African nuclear weapons development during the 70s. The alleged special weapons are stored at an air base in ISrael, supposedly ready to be used in case of attack as a means of ultimate defense in case of being overrun by invaders.

Hmm, I've read different accounts of it, but in essence yes, they got the nuclear material from a plant in Apollo, Pennsylvania.

And yes, Israel did help South Africa with their weapons program although South Africa eventually abandoned it. Israel is also rumored to have several submarines armed with nuclear missiles as a second means of attack in the case that a nuclear bomb ever landed on Israel.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):Which there is no evidence that they are doing

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
have expressed a desire to see the destruction of other governments for religious reasons.

Much like Israel.

Israel wants to destroy other countries for religious reasons... couldn't have anything to do with the fact that your Islamic buddies in the region think Israel shouldn't even exist, now could it? They definetly don't want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. That's why Syria, Egypt, and Jordan never tried to invade, overpower, and obliterate Israel. Oh, wait a second.......

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):Quoting Greyhound (Reply 5):
Maybe we can have France help out Iran with their nuclear program(s).

You mean like the US did with Iran?

True, I guess in some ways our countries are alot alike... politicians in both places will sell weapons to whomever, criminal, dictator or not, just to make a buck.

And in case I'm missing something, which I might indeed be, when did we ever build two reactors for them? Or at least, when did we supply nuclear material? I'm not saying you're wrong or right N1120A, but it's not exactly something I'm privy to. That's all.

If we did, God only knows why we'd do a dumba$$ thing like that, except for someone in our government looking to get a payoff somehow. But besides us... why did France build a couple reactors for Saddam? For "peaceful energy" programs? I'd definetly trust (cough, cough) someone who'll attack his neighbors (i.e. Iran), torture his countrymen and gas people (the Kurds) when it suits him. In all honesty N1120A, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. I couldn't figure out why the U.S. would do that with Iran. When we were trying to keep the Shah in power, I could see us doing something stupid like that (not condoning it). I mean after all, we did sell them some F-14s and were going to sell them 4 Spruance class destroyers before we axed that one. But I just haven't heard of us working with Iran's nuclear program.

I thought Russia was the one helping Iran with it's nuclear ambitions.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 10):Israel wants to destroy other countries for religious reasons... couldn't have anything to do with the fact that your Islamic buddies in the region think Israel shouldn't even exist, now could it?

I wonder if that has anything to do with partitioning of an area of the world where they have lived for their whole existance as opposed to where some have been for only 57 years at the point of a gun

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 10):They definetly don't want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

Man, you really need to read closer. I realize you are new, but this has come up since you have been here.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 10): politicians in both places will sell weapons to whomever, criminal, dictator or not, just to make a buck.

Actually, it seems a lot like politicians in the US are more willing to sell weapons to criminals and dictators more than they are to democratic, non-religious based regimes. BTW, building energy producers (the type of which I think are bad, even in their peaceful purpose) is not selling weapons.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 10):And in case I'm missing something, which I might indeed be, when did we ever build two reactors for them?

The US built Iran's only, and still incomplete, nuclear reactor. Construction was suspended during the revolution in the final stages.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 10):If we did, God only knows why we'd do a dumba$$ thing like that, except for someone in our government looking to get a payoff somehow.

Actually, the really dumba$$ thing the US did was pushing a democracy out of power in Iran and then trying to prop up a dictator.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 8):Hmm, I've read different accounts of it, but in essence yes, they got the nuclear material from a plant in Apollo, Pennsylvania.

Israel's nuclear program dates back to the 50's, and was started with the direct logistical support of... France.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
have expressed a desire to see the destruction of other governments for religious reasons.

Much like Israel.

Most of your other arguments were reasonalbe, but the one above is far from it. Israel has never advertised a desire to wipe out any particular nation for any particular reason. It's neighbours have on countless occasions. We're talking alliance formed for that explicit purpose, a number of acts of war etc.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):With that logic, Iran should want nuclear weapons as well, considering that a neighbor that has committed hostile action in the past has them

Israel is not Iran's neigbhour. It has not commited any aggression against Iran. Iran has (through it's open support to certain organizations). Hell Israel and Iran used to be pretty tight, even in the first few years after Iran's revolution.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 5):Maybe we can have France help out Iran with their nuclear program(s). Just like they did for Saddam, when they built those two reactors for him, before Israel bombed one and the other didn't have a happy ending either....

True France helped Iraq build nuclear power plants (which aren't weapons but i'm sure Saddam would have eventually gotten there), but do you seriously think the US was any better? Where do you think Saddam got the weapons he used to gas the Kurds? Who do you think supported him in the 70s and 80s? Yep, the good old US of A.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 7):Maybe I should have put that in my first post as my issue of concern. I know very well why Israel would want (and in my opinion should want) nuclear weapons...

So why shouldn't Iran want them? Their neighbour (Iraq) had been invaded for no good reason, don't you think Iran would be worried about suffering a similar fate?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):The Iranians are not in a similar position and have expressed a desire to see the destruction of other governments for religious reasons. I think that there is a difference.

Read above. They are not in the same position Israel was in, but they are in a tight spot, because Bush has made it pretty clear he would invade a country for no good reasons, and he had labelled Iran as a part of the "Axis of Evil".

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 10):Israel wants to destroy other countries for religious reasons... couldn't have anything to do with the fact that your Islamic buddies in the region think Israel shouldn't even exist, now could it? They definetly don't want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. That's why Syria, Egypt, and Jordan never tried to invade, overpower, and obliterate Israel. Oh, wait a second.......

Oh, wait a second...

Didn't Israel sort of steal this area known as the Golan Heights from Syria?

Didn't Israel sort of attack the West Bank, which was officially part of Jordan in 1967? It was Israel who attacked Jordan, not the other way around.

As for Egypt, Sinai ring a bell? And now the US is the only country allowed to come to the aid of its allies?

Umm, the exodus of 800,000 Palestinians does not count now? They basically pushed out the entire native population of what is Israel today and threw them out by force, not to mention the amount of massacres that took place at the hands of Israeli forces.

"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Nonsense. Russia refused to sell longrange weapons to Syria because of Israel's security concerns. Israel is not allowing Russia to sell APCs to Palestine because Abbas has yet to reign in his militants. And above all else, Putin just had a very succesful trip to Israel.

"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 18):It really saddens me that an Arab like you can still say that the US invaded Iraq for "no good reason".

An Arab like him huh? How about an Iranian like me? Perhaps I should be happy that my home country is plotting to destroy my father's country of birth and one of my countries of nationality? Perhaps I should be dropping to my knees thanking the "good" lord if the US invades Iran and overthrows the government?? Oh, wait, they did that and it caused the last 52 years of dictatorship. The US invaded Iraq based on claims that Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction and that it was not turning them over to UN authorities. The truth is that inspectors found no such weapons, the US went in anyway and now claim the whole thing was to "liberate the Iraqi people." That is garbage, and you should know that. It is really sad that you are so blind to this. It is sort of like the CIA overthrow of Mossadeq under the pretense that he was a "commie bastard" supporing the Soviet Union, when he had no such plan and was committed to the relationship Iran had with the West, just was not willing to allow Iran's oil economy to be raped by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. And the worst thing about it all is that because the Shah fell, Israel, an also ran in US policy, became such a focus.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 18):It really saddens me that an Arab like you can still say that the US invaded Iraq for "no good reason".

Why should all Arabs be happy about the fact that Iraq turned into the worldwide no.1 center of terrorists after that "invasion"? Innocent people are blown up and hijacked every day and the "liberation forces" cannot protect them, what's positive about that?

Quoting Udo (Reply 20):Why should all Arabs be happy about the fact that Iraq turned into the worldwide no.1 center of terrorists after that "invasion"? Innocent people are blown up and hijacked every day and the "liberation forces" cannot protect them, what's positive about that?

What's positive is that Arabs voted in a free election in Iraq. When was the last time you saw that in any Arab country?

"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 18):It really saddens me that an Arab like you can still say that the US invaded Iraq for "no good reason".

Well then, RJ, lets hear it from a Jewish American like you. What is the good reason Iraq was invaded? Freedom? Democracy? There are many places that need it more than Iraq you could have saved, but wait! What a coincidence! You chose the one with the world's second largest oil reserves! And if you guys have such a good reason, why did Bush lie in the beginning? Even after the UN inspectors found NOTHING, you guys still invaded. What did you find? Some old chemical weapons you sold Saddam in the 80s that were rusting away in the desert, but that is all.

RJ, no reason is good enough to invade Iraq with what it caused. A racist pig like you would not really care because their just Arabs dying over there, but as a direct result of your country and that pathetic excuse for a human being you call a president, tens of thousands of Iraqis are dead, the country has been devestated, and it has turned into a place where bombings are about as regular as a trip to the supermarket. For God's sake, even an MP isn't safe in Iraq, didn't they blow up an MP while she was at her front porch just a few days ago?

Do me a favor, RJ, and imagine the US was in Iraq's shoes. Would you feel the same about "Arabs like me"?

"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

That shows even more how much you know, dear. Given that "Persians" are actually a mix of 6 different groups that make up only 50% of the Iranian population, I would say that Iranians are Iranians, a mix. Actually, it is very much like the US in that respect

No RJ, he was calling you a racist (something I agree with). Meanwhile, millions of Iranians and Iraqis died for the ECONOMIC gain of US corporations. Oh, and the worst thing about it is that everytime we invade a Middle-Eastern country, or support the invasion of a Middle-Eastern country, the US economy goes to hell.

For the past week. And most pundits agree that Syria is likely to continue secretly controlling Lebanon. The events of the past few weeks have most definitly been a step in the right direction. However, it does not mean Lebanon is free yet.

"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

In the game of international hypocrisy there are no winners only losers.....

Saddens me that I see so much hatred and racism even here, persons who have the technology and the means to change this crazy world, but are more interested in showing that they are "right", better try to make your neighbor happy, your family happy and live a decent life, if governments and such do not try to make the difference yourself...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 26):I know Iran is Persian dear. Lebanon has been controlled by Syria for years; NOT A FREE COUNTRY. Elections under a dictatorship does not make a country free.

Emile Lahoud was voted in freely FYI, that was post civil war. It was not as free as it was pre-civil war, but they were still pretty free. There was freedom of speech and people voted in all the elections. Now, things are going back to the way they were, with absoloutly NO CREDIT going to Bush & Co.

And no, they are not paying any price to give my people freedom, they are paying the price for the lies of your president. And when did I say all Americans are racist? I said you were, something you have made clear many times.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 29):For the past week. And most pundits agree that Syria is likely to continue secretly controlling Lebanon. The events of the past few weeks have most definitly been a step in the right direction. However, it does not mean Lebanon is free yet.

"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Didn't Israel sort of steal this area known as the Golan Heights from Syria?

Didn't Israel sort of attack the West Bank, which was officially part of Jordan in 1967? It was Israel who attacked Jordan, not the other way around.

Let's try to get our facts correct:

In April 1967, after Syria heavily shelled Israeli villages from the Golan Heights, Israel and Syria engaged in aerial clashes. Israel shot down six of Syria’s MiG fighter planes, which were given by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). Israel warned Syria against future attacks, and both the Syrians and Soviets were alarmed by the warning. Syria appealed to Nasser for backing, and in mid-May the Egyptian army moved 100,000 troops and 1000 tanks into the Sinai Peninsula on Israel’s southern border. The United Nations had earlier stationed forces in the area as observers, but on May 17, Nasser called for the removal of UN personnel from several locations. Within days, all of the observers were removed. On May 22 Nasser announced the closure of the Strait of Tiran, a vital shipping corridor for Israel with links to the Red Sea and major sources of petroleum. A similar closure of the strait had been a major cause of the Suez Crisis in 1956; Israel had made clear since then that it would regard another closure as an act of war. Israel was further alarmed when Egypt and Jordan signed a treaty placing the two armies under a joint command. Despite a flurry of diplomatic effort, war was inevitable.

War was not far behind on Israel’s eastern front. Israel had conveyed a message to King Hussein of Jordan asking him to stay out of the conflict, but on the first morning of the war Nasser called Hussein and encouraged him to fight. Nasser reportedly told Hussein that Egypt had been victorious in the morning’s fighting—an illusion the Egyptian public believed for several days. At 11:00 am Jordanian troops attacked the Israeli half of Jerusalem with mortars and gunfire and shelled targets in the Israeli interior. Israel’s air force, having immobilized the Egyptian air force, turned its attention to Jordan. By evening, the Jordanian air force had been largely destroyed, again with minimal Israeli casualties. At midnight Israeli ground forces attacked Jordanian troops in Jerusalem, and by the morning of June 6, Israeli troops had nearly encircled the city.

Fact: There was a war, it lasted six days and Israel won it. According to the Prime Minister and General of the Israeli army...

Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel stated:"We had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. WE MUST BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES. WE DECIDED TO ATTACK HIM." [Jerusalem Post, 29th August 1982]

General Peled of Israeli Army stated:"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army)." [Ha'aretz, 19th March 1972]

Israel destroyed 300 Egyptian airplanes on the ground. Even after the ceasefire Israel illegally took over more territory. It was after the ceasefire that various parts of Syria were blown up for two consecutive days.

Israel's need for water also played a role in its attacks. The invasion completed Israeli encirclement of the headwaters of the Upper Jordan River. The capture of the West Bank and the two aquifers arising now supply all the groundwater for north and central Israel.

By the end of it all Israel had illegally occupied:
1. Sinai
2.Gaza Strip
3. East Jerusalem-where the Israeli flag appeared for the first time in Al-Aqsa Mosque.
4. West Bank

Half a million Arabs were forced from the territories.

The dead according to Israeli Army sources numbered...

Israelis: 779
Arabs: 13,500

Immediately following Israel's assault in 1967, US aid shot up by 450%. Part of this increase, according to the New York Times, was apparently related to Israel's willingness to provide the US with examples of new Soviet weapons captured during the war.

As for the Camp David 2000 offer which many are disillusioned by there are a few things to note.

Nitinyahu was felt to have not delivered by the Israeli public and Ehud Barak of the Labour party who pledged to end the conflict within a year was elected.

However, Barak had a strange idea of how peace was to be achieved. In one of his earliest speeches he outlined his master plan with four "NOs!":
1. No concession on the West Bank and Gaza (Israel will continue the illegal occupation).
2. Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel (Palestinians were to give up all claims to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem).
3. No dismantling of the illegal jewish settlements.
4. No army West of the River Jordan (so even if there is a Palestinian state, Israel would tell it whether it can have an army or not).

This threw all peace plans out. As the illegal settlements remained, the occupation continued. In fact not only did they remain, they continuously expanded.

In 1990, there were 70,000 illegal settlers and by 2002 the number increased to 270,000 illegal settlers.

The support comes from the government of Israel itself, with 28% of the Ministry of Trade and Industry's budget used to house the illegal settlers.

Then came the "generous" offer of Camp David.

The timeline of the 1999 Sharm El Sheikh Memorandum called for the final status negotiations to be completed by September 13, 2000. This led President Clinton's invitation to Barak and Arafat for a summit at Camp David to be convened on July 11th 2000.

The West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of pre-1948 Palestine.
When the Palestinian authority signed Oslo (which in itself was very bias towards the Israelis) they accepted only 22% and recognised Israel within the green line borders conceding 78% of historic Palestine.

Barak felt this was not enough and demanded:

--69 illegal settlements to be included in this area, where 85% of the illegal settlers live. These illegal settlements disrupt Palestinian life in the West Bank and Gaza and are strategically located.
--Territories will e under 'temporary Israeli control'. This meant that Palestinian land remains under Israeli military and civil control for an indefinite time.
--Palestinians to accept Israeli supervision of border crossings and other restrictions.

This was Israel's most 'generous' offer. Camp David offered Palestinians 46% of 22% of historical Palestine.

Furthermore, this proposal required Palestinians to give up any claim to occupy Jerusalem and would have forced recognition of Israel's annexation of all of East Jerusalem which includes Al-Aqsa.

It's truly a shame people can attack the Palestinians going against this so called 'peace' deal when it was so blatantly unfair and bias. Always read the 'small print' to these deals.

Myth:
Was Israel the agressor in 1967? Did Israel attack peacefull Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967 and wrestle the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the "West Bank" from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria?

Truth:
In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel to believe that an Arab attack was imminent. On May 16, Nasser ordered a withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border, thus removing the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. On May 22, Egypt announced a blockade of all goods bound to and from Israel through the Straits of Tiran. Israel had held since 1957 that another Egyptian blockade of the Tiran Straits would justify Israeli military action to maintain free access to the port of Eilat. Syria increased border clashes with Israel along the Golan Heights and mobilized its troops.

The U.S. feared a major Arab-Israeli and superpower confrontation and asked Israel to delay military action pending a diplomatic resolution of the crisis. On May 23, U.S. President Lyndon Johnson publicly reaffirmed that the Gulf of Aqaba was an international waterway and declared that a blockade of Israeli shipping was illegal. In accordance with U.S. wishes, the Israeli cabinet voted five days later to withhold military action.

The U.S., however, gained little support in the international community for its idea of a maritime force that would compel Egypt to open the waterway and it abandoned its diplomatic efforts in this regard. On May 30, President Nasser and King Hussein signed a mutual defense pact, followed on June 4 by a defense pact between Cairo and Baghdad. Also that week, Arab states began mobilizing their troops. Against this backdrop, Nasser and other Egyptian leaders intensified their anti-Israel rhetoric and repeatedly called for a war of total destruction against Israel.

Arab mobilization compelled Israel to mobilize its troops, 80 percent of which were reserve civilians. Israel feared slow economic strangulation because long-term mobilization of such a majority of the society meant that the Israeli economy and polity would be brought to a virtual standstill. Militarily, Israeli leaders feared the consequences of absorbing an Arab first strike against its civilian population, many of whom lived only miles from Arab-controlled territory. Incendiary Arab rhetoric threatening Israel's annihilation terrified Israeli society and contributed to the pressures to go to war.

Against this background, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967 and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria. The war ended on June 10.

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

Israel's critics maintain that the 1967 War was one of Israeli aggression rather than a war of Israeli self-defense. Yet, on May 15, Israel's Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai, massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops, too, were preparing for battle along the Golan Heights, 3000 feet above the Galilee, from which they had shelled Israel's farms and villages for years. Egypt's Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force (UNEF), stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw, whereupon the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed, on May 18, 1967:
"As of today there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel stated:"We had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. WE MUST BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES. WE DECIDED TO ATTACK HIM." [Jerusalem Post, 29th August 1982]

General Peled of Israeli Army stated:"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army)." [Ha'aretz, 19th March 1972]

Quoting Horus (Reply 37):These comments go against whats been said in the last 2 posts

And the comments brought by me contradict yours. Blind desire for peace of some Israelis bring them to wrong statements.

"In recent weeks, the Middle East has passed through a crisis whose shadows darkened the entire world. The crisis has many consequences, but only one cause. Israel's right to peace, security, sovereignty...indeed its very right to exist, has been forcibly denied and aggressively attacked."
- Abba Eban, in his statement to the UN following the Six Day War

Was Israel the aggressor in 1967, as the Arabs [and anti-Zionists] continue to maintain? It hardly seems possible. The jurisprudential correctness of Israel's resort to anticipatory self-defense is well-established in longstanding customary international law. The Law of Nations is not a suicide pact. Israel could not have been expected to wait patiently for its own annihilation. Indeed, when the Government of Golda Meir decided not to exercise the lawful option of anticipatory self-defense in October 1973, when Egypt and Syria were preparing to launch yet another war of aggression against the Jewish State, her country almost paid for it with collective disappearance.

- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue University

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 38):Was Israel the aggressor in 1967, as the Arabs [and anti-Zionists] continue to maintain? It hardly seems possible. The jurisprudential correctness of Israel's resort to anticipatory self-defense is well-established in longstanding customary international law. The Law of Nations is not a suicide pact. Israel could not have been expected to wait patiently for its own annihilation. Indeed, when the Government of Golda Meir decided not to exercise the lawful option of anticipatory self-defense in October 1973, when Egypt and Syria were preparing to launch yet another war of aggression against the Jewish State, her country almost paid for it with collective disappearance.

- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue University

I will simply reiterate for a third time these two starements since they illustrate this very point.

Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel stated:"We had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. WE MUST BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES. WE DECIDED TO ATTACK HIM." [Jerusalem Post, 29th August 1982]

General Peled of Israeli Army stated:"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army)." [Ha'aretz, 19th March 1972].

Quoting Horus (Reply 39):So I guess that makes Menachem Begin and General Peled of Israeli Army either Arabs or anti-zionists...

No, they just said wrong things. (that's what politicians do)

However you leave no choice but to re-iterate myself again as well:

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

And then I'll add some more:
"...something should be done about the right of Israeli ships, which was exercised by all other ships until a day or so ago, to navigate the Suez Canal. There have been decisions by the Security Council of the UN affirming that right, but in practice, the affirmation has not meant very much to Israel."
- Canadian Prime Minister L.B. Pearson in the House of Commons, June 8/67

In 1967, Palestinian raiders from Syria increasingly put the lives of Jewish immigrants in danger. Encouraged by the U.S.S.R., Egypt, and its charismatic leader Gamal Nasser, was thought to have "expansionist" tendencies, and a desire to invade Israel. As 100,000 Egyptian troops massed on the Sinai, Israel took the only action available to prevent certain defeat...on June 5, 1967, they attacked. A brilliantly planned air attack destroyed almost the entire Egyptian air force as it sat on the ground. By gaining air superiority, the Israelis were then able to maneuver their tank corps with impunity, not fearing Egyptian air attacks. A series of armored cavalry and tank task forces then advanced rapidly and surrounded or cut-off Egyptian defenders. Six days later, it turned into a rout, and the Israelis gained both territory and the respect of other military forces in the region.
- by Clark Staten, Emergency Response & Research Institute, Chicago, IL

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 40):No, they just said wrong things. (that's what politicians do)

Politician???

General Peled of Israeli Army stated:"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army)." [Ha'aretz, 19th March 1972].

Jeez Horus. Do you really believe for one second that Israel started the war? When an enemy promises your destruction, then moves hundreds of tanks and thousands of soldiers to your border, closes down your shipping lanes, and forms an alliance with other countries on your border, PLEASE TELL ME, DO YOU REALLY NOT CONSIDER THIS ANACTOF WAR?

"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

HORUS
can you please clarify where you are going with these quotes:
So you really believe that at that time there was no threat to ISrael by Egypt and Syria??
Or you believe that these countries never wanted destruction of Israel?
EDKA

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 42):Jeez Horus. Do you really believe for one second that Israel started the war? When an enemy promises your destruction, then moves hundreds of tanks and thousands of soldiers to your border, closes down your shipping lanes, and forms an alliance with other countries on your border, PLEASE TELL ME, DO YOU REALLY NOT CONSIDER THIS ANACTOF WAR?

General Peled of Israeli Army stated:
"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army)." [Ha'aretz, 19th March 1972].

let's just see that once again; "..an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army).". These are not my words but what was said by the General of the Israeli army.

Quoting Horus (Reply 45):Quoting RJpieces (Reply 42):
Jeez Horus. Do you really believe for one second that Israel started the war? When an enemy promises your destruction, then moves hundreds of tanks and thousands of soldiers to your border, closes down your shipping lanes, and forms an alliance with other countries on your border, PLEASE TELL ME, DO YOU REALLY NOT CONSIDER THIS ANACTOF WAR?

General Peled of Israeli Army stated:
"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army)." [Ha'aretz, 19th March 1972].

let's just see that once again; "..an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analysing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal (Israeli Army).". These are not my words but what was said by the General of the Israeli army.

Horus

Can you actually answer the question, and not just keep giving the same response.

Well off course the situation was volitile between the Arabs and the Israelis and no one is denying that, but Israel initiated the war. i.e. it launched a pre-emptive attack. The Arabs initiated the War of Ramadan (Yom Kippur War) of 1973 but that was a justified war as explained at the UN:

The Secretary-General of the Arab League explained the Arab action:"In a final analysis, Arab action is justifiable, moral and valid under Article 51 of the Charter of the UN...There is no aggression, no attempt to acquire new territories. But to restore and liberate all the Occupied Territories is a duty for all self-respecting people." [Sunday Times, 14 October 1973]

I do want to make one more point. Its strikes me how when information is presented from an Arab source it is dismissed as lies and propaganda but when information is given from an Israeli source that contradicts the pro-israeli argument it is simply brushed aside...interesting.

Quoting Horus (Reply 48):Well off course the situation was volitile between the Arabs and the Israelis and no one is denying that, but Israel initiated the war. i.e. it launched a pre-emptive attack.

Ok ok, so Israel may have started the 6-day war, but you have to at least accept the fact, that in the end it was Egypt and Syria, which brought the whole situation to a point, where Israel just couldn't lean back anylonger and wait and see what would happen next few. As we like say in Germany, selberschuld