Respect?

From today’s Irish News (h/t to @Short_Strand). Doesn’t really need much more comment. Sorry to rain on anyone’s parade, but you know what us Fenian bastards are like.

At least in the case of the bandsman urinating on the church gates, the Grand Secretary of the Orange Order was quick out of the blocks this morning to the BBC:

Mr Nelson said the incident was “outrageous and unacceptable”.

He apologised unreservedly to the priest and parishioners of St Matthews and said the Orange Order would look into what happened.

“We are always trying to review things and we will be looking at this seriously,” he told BBC NI’s Good Morning Ulster programme.

Good man, Drew, although no mention of playing The Sash outside the church. Now, Drew, if you can just drop the names and addresses of all those who breached the Parades Commission determination on the Last Saturday and, eh, last Saturday into the DPP and PSNI, then you can be on your way.

You have hit one nail on the head. It is difficult to have a “good” argument with people who can only see black and white. Not a single shade of gray about the place. Some PUL commenters here (well, at least one principal individual) are similarly challenged.

Neil

There are interstingly no threads here about books about La Mon only McGurks – both equally despicable attacks.

You can see some distinct differences though no? For example, in one case the police arrested 25 people in their investigation, Belfast downed tools for a rally for justice organised by the Orange order, the International Airport closed for an hour, a large number of factory workers donated half a day’s wages to the victims, and people generally speaking were correctly informed of what had taken place; meanwhile in the other event the RUC disregarded not one but two Loyalist claims of responsibility and cheerfully set about blaming the victims for killing themselves?

You see at La Mon everyone knew what happened and were rightly disgusted. At McGurk’s Bar everyone was informed that the victims blew themselves up and were in the IRA. You see why an inquiry might be desired on one side (to uncover the truth which was subverted back then) while on the other everyone knows what happened and any inquiry can only go over what we already know and is a bit of a waste of time?

The people the extensive RUC investigation fingered for La Mon have seen the inside of the courtroom, and in one case the prison, and so they cannot be re-charged no matter how much some would wish it.

PeterBrown

A 20 line post and you pick out just one of them Neil – not selective at all…

There had been a prosecution or at least an admission about McGurks too I thought – and it was never alleged that all the victims of McGurks were huddled round the device admiring it when it went off. I understood they were alleged to be innocent victims of a premature detonation of a device of which they knew nothing at the time but perhaps if I am wrong you could confirm that I am falsely accusing you of hyperbole…and given that even that much less serious piece of misinformation than what you allege has now been corrected why does it need investigated any more than any other incidnet in the Troubles?

Neil

I have no reason to argue against the other 19 lines, and I’ll accede to the hyperbole accusation. The reason some events warrant more attention than others (most likely on both sides) is because people who were responsible for doing the wrong thing at the time have gotten off scot free (like police and soldiers) and in many cases the family’s just want to know the full truth.

The suspicion was that collusion occurred which explains why families want to see things investigated. They wanted to know if the RUC had (as they have been found to have done elsewhere) assisted the Loyalist paramilitaries responsible in any way.

But the problem is that when Nationalist families campaign for the truth, it’s because they had literally no chance of getting it back in the day. They can get to it now because of the Ombudsman, and they feel that they’ve never had that chance before.

But Unionists object, sometimes not to the inquiries that Nationalists campaign for but for the absence of inquiries that Unionists fail to campaign for (usually because a full investigation was carried out at the time, and people were imprisoned for the acts already, and the whiff of collusion is more often absent on your side of the fence).

If you want an inquiry into something then put in the leg work as many Nationalist families have done. Don’t just complain because they are working for, and getting inquiries. Work for and get whatever one it is that you want.

But basically the investigations are usually going against your community because they are usually against the > 95% PUL RUC and Army. And surprisingly the >95% PUL RUC was not running around helping to murder their own, also PUL, friends and family back in the day.

Members of the loyalist band filmed marching in circles outside a Catholic church in Belfast have been arrested.

The Young Conway Volunteers flute band were videoed playing loyalist tunes outside St Patrick’s Church in Donegall Street on 12 July.

Police said 11 males, aged between 15 and 42, were arrested on suspicion of provocative conduct. Three others were also interviewed by police.

Covenanter

“My wee question proves my point all along, that one community has been, and continues to be, as bad as the other community. ”

Nonsense. The minority community was responsible for the majority of the deaths, and that is further compounded by the fact that they vote for the people who supported the killing.

Covenanter

“people who were responsible for doing the wrong thing at the time have gotten off scot free (like police and soldiers)”

And senior republican politicians.

Neil

And senior republican politicians.

Anyone in mind? Someone who hasn’t served time presumably, and wasn’t released like good ole Billy Hunter under the terms of the GFA, as they all served their time and should be left to live out their days in peace. Unless they get hounded to the grave by the media and their own words of course.

Of course, many senior Republican politicians spent plenty of time in prison. Unlike the collusive members of the security forces. Hence the desire for inquiries you see.

PeterBrown

The reason some events warrant more attention than others (most likely on both sides) is because people who were responsible for doing the wrong thing at the time have gotten off scot free (like police and soldiers) and in many cases the family’s just want to know the full truth.

Neil to turn your own argument against you it is an undisputed fact that a greater proportion oif lyalist murders were solved and those responsibledealt with through the courts than republicans so your enagaing in hyperbole again when you say But the problem is that when Nationalist families campaign for the truth, it’s because they had literally no chance of getting it back in the day.

And if you believe those wish to parade should pay for the privilege then why not nthose who wnat meaningless one sided enquiries (witch hunts)? Saville alone would have paid for every marching season for the last 20 years and for the last 50 if the anti parades strategy hadn’t been fermented by mainstream republicans.

Btw I welcome the arrest and questioning of the YCV band apparently for the incident on the Twelfth (probably not going to be prosecuted) and Black Saturday (which as a more blatant breach should be prosecuted) and should set an interesting precedent for Dungiven and illegal republican parades etc….

Neil

that a greater proportion oif lyalist murders were solved and those responsibledealt with through the courts than republicans

I’ve heard that claim before but I’ve never seen evidence that backs it up. It’s not relevant at any rate because while the main protagonists here were undoubtedly the natives, the one actor who walks away scot free in the main is the British state. So the truth we seek is about the collusive activity carried out by the RUC. You accept that the RUC was very unlikely to uncover RUC collusion as the investigators would have been the ones doing the colluding in the first place. This is the truth that we had no chance of getting back in the day, not the conviction of Loyalists (though we now know that some of those were very much protected by the state like the Mt. Vernon crowd, or Scapp for example – off the top of my head that’s about 30 dead people). So no, you’re wrong 100%, we never got that justice, and we never heard that truth.

And if you believe those wish to parade should pay for the privilege then why not nthose who wnat meaningless one sided enquiries

The state pays for murdering it’s own citizens. You can’t compare an innocent civilian who gets murdered as a result of collusion to a Band Parade. You choose to go on a parade, you don’t choose to be shot in the back of the head by a state proxy, protected by state agents. The state killed people and it should have to pay to clean up it’s mess. Like the Order/Hibernians and whoever else should have to pay for their own mess.

Saville alone would have paid for every marching season for the last 20 years and for the last 50 if the anti parades strategy hadn’t been fermented by mainstream republicans.

If the English army hadn’t murdered all those people, then the Saville inquiry wouldn’t have cost so much, and the last 40 years might have been very different. It’s not the families fault that their relatives were murdered in cold blood by the Paras. The responsibility falls to the UK Government who has a duty to protect it’s own citizens and does not have the right to execute them.

There was no determination broken in Dungiven of course, so it’s unlikely anything will happen there, but candidly, I find Republican parades as distasteful as I do Orange ones. And I think it’s regrettable that any Protestants living in the town would feel intimidated in any way, and I agree that anyone participating in an illegal parade should expect the same treatment as the YCV bandsmen.

Covenanter

“Anyone in mind? Someone who hasn’t served time presumably”

I was thinking of two people in particular who both served at the very top of the Provisional IRA at a time when they were responsible for murders on a daily basis, but who are currently senior Sinn Fein politicians. One of them is even in government and neither have served a prison sentence which is remotely appropriate for their crimes of mass murder.

PeterBrown

Neil

Take your first paragrapoh and insert the Irish government and our own current government – are the family of Joanne Mathers and the victims of Bloody Friday with their allegatons of direct participation by members of our current government and its party hierarchy’s any less derserving of the truth? Or is there a hierarchy of victims after all? Maybe based on your second paragraph the Irish goverment and Irish America and Republicans generally should fund their fair share? or are we going to discriminate? Everything you have said I don’t necessarily disagree with but it applies equally in reverse – I’m prepared to be balanced, are you?

John Ó Néill

And just in case anyone thought that the marching season (and its attendant sectariana) was over – another band played The Famine Song on the Clifton St- Donegall St section of the Apprentice Boys Remembrance parade in Belfast yesterday (to avoid confusion even the Newsletter says so). Presumably, after the same song was played on the Orange Orders Twelfth, the nonsense of Black [Preceptory] Saturday, the Apprentice Boys have completed some form of grand slam for the Orders this year.

Reader

John Ó Néill: …the Apprentice Boys have completed some form of grand slam for the Orders this year. Do you dispute the version presented in the Newsletter article you linked? “Bands all played hymns or a single drum beat while passing St Patrick’s church, however one band struck up the tune of the Famine Song along Clifton Street. Officials from the Apprentice Boys stopped the tune being played shortly after it had been started.”

John Ó Néill

Reader – let’s see what sanction gets put on the band by the Apprentice Boys or the rest of the Orders. Playing the Famine Song still evidences the attitudes of some of those marching.

galloglaigh

And to think an Gorta Mór was as sectarian as the bands playing the song: It only killed Caflicks!