JFK GIF explains: Could Oswald have fired all the shots?

Robert Harris offers a closely reasoned answer to that question, complete with a cool GIF of the Zapruder film to buttress his argument.

Harris writes:

“I have been writing about this for many years, but I may not have been as clear as I should have been. There is in fact, a very easy way to confirm that Lee Oswald could not have fired all the shots during the assassination.

“To understand it, one needs to first ask why the passengers in the limousine reacted as they were seen doing in the Zapruder film, running at full 18.3 frames per second.

Harris goes on:

“The evidence which answers that question is as follows:

“1. The Warren Commission concluded that ‘a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced. Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together.’

“2. Dr. Luis Alvarez concluded that there was a loud and startling noise at frame 285, but suggested that it was a ‘siren.’

3. In Dec. of 1994 Dr. Michael Stroscio, another brilliant physicist who has chaired Presidential science commissions, wrote a paper, suggesting that the noise at 285 was the gunshot which missed the President and went on to cause James Tague’s minor wound.

“4. The visible reactions were carried out by every surviving passenger in the limo, all beginning in the same 1/6th of one second, during frames 290-292. (Alvarez identified Zapruder’s reaction at frames 290-291)

5. Roy Kellerman said the final shots came in a “flurry.”

6. Bill Greer said “The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other.”

7. Mrs. Connally said she heard a single shot, then looked back at the President, which we see her do at about frame 258, then heard the shot that she thought, wounded her husband, followed by the fatal head shot.

9. Experts are unanimous that involuntary startle reactions must begin within no more than 1/3rd of a second (6 Zapruder frames). Therefore, the shot which provoked the reactions at frames 290-292, could not have been fired any earlier than frame 285, which is 1.5 seconds prior to the headshot at frame 313.

10. Tests conducted by the FBI and the HSCA have proven that it was impossible to accurately fire the alleged murder weapon twice within 1.5 seconds.

Harris concludes: Oswald might have fired one of the shots at 285 or 313 but he could not have fired both.

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161 comments

I’m skeptical of any substantive conclusions derived from the extant Z-film, because I believe the extant film is not a true copy of the camera-original film.

I do agree the many witnesses who heard two shots spaced closed together undermine the Warren Report.

The big mystery presented to me by this film clip is this: Were Greer and Kellerman merely duds when it came to protecting the president? Or were they part of a sinister plot to kill him?

I’ve not reached a conclusion — I’m open-minded — but I lean toward the dud hypothesis, for this reason: Their post-assassination words about the shots and Kellerman’s statement about JFK’s exclamation directly undercut the Warren Commission’s lone-assassin theory.

Tink Thompson says no shot occured at Z312. The movement between 312 and 313 from a ruler measurement is the result of an optical illusion from image blurring.

However, Tink demonstrated at Lancer last November that a head shot from the rear probably occured around Z328 IIRC, right around the instant that we see the sunlight’s reflection off the windshield blur due to bellowing (the cause of its crack).

[Incidentally, Phillip A. Nelson’s book LBJ: The Mastermind of the JFK Assassination points out we see the crack in a blow-up of the Altgen’s photo which occurs before the fatal head shot at Z313. Perhaps, the bellowing was caused by the chrome frame strike then?]

Josiah Thompson is wrong. There were two head shots. The photographic evidence clearly demonstrates it.

Josiah had it right the first time.

Josiah Thompson over reacted to the “optical” illusion scenario.

The bullet which struck JFK on frame 313 struck the TOP of JFK’s head causing it to “bob” down. The second bullet struck at frame 318 and pushed him over to the left. The head “bobbed” down in reaction to the first shot, it did not move forward. Because the bullet struck the top of the head we know it had to come from the roof of either the DCRB or the DCCCB.

Two head shots is also supported by the Moorman photo in conjunction with the Zapruder film.

I post this gif a lot because it is extremely important. It shows JFK being struck by TWO shots to the head.

I believe the optical illusion at Z-312 is also based on work by John Hunt. It was demonstrated why it is an optical illusion at Lancer. It is not an over-reaction as you put it. It’s based on detailed analysis, part of which I got into in my post above.

JFK practically bounced off the back of his seat which caused him to bob forward after the fatal shot.

Your GIF clip doesn’t show another shot at Z318 (I’ve never heard that one before).

The Moorman photo is a still Polaroid shot taken an instant after the fatal head shot*. I don’t see how it demonstrates two head shots.

*What I do see is a dark notch, almost triangular, in the occipital part of his head. Maybe that’s the avulsion to the BOH. It seems to big to be a small film artifact.

That GIF is very intense to watch for more than a minute or so even if you’ve seen the Z-film hundreds of times.Immediately after the first head shot explosion, there is a flash of an irregularly-shaped pinkish/flesh-colored object travelling at high speed down and forward past Jackie’s left (her left, not yours) shoulder into the car. What was this?

Why is it important to recognize two , nearly simultaneous , headshots as shown by the photographic evidence?

Because two, nearly simultaneous, headshots tell us that those shots were fired in response to a signal.

Since we when the two headshots occurred (via the zapruder film) we also know when the signal was given. There are really 3 nearly simultaneous events, the two shots and the signal that gave rise to them.

However, I just see the back and to the left movement by JFK after the fatal headshot, followed by lurching slightly forward and to his left after his backward motion is stopped when his body slightly rebounds off the back of his seat.

I find it very odd that Josiah Thompson has changed his mind on the very clear 2.5 inch forward movement of the head between Z312 and Z313.

There is a bullet entry wound in the back of the head and so we know that there was one shot from the rear.

Was there also a shot from the Knoll – almost certainly not as the medical report would have to be falsified. Wound alteration to such an extent was a medical impossibility then and probably even mow. Had there been a second head shot – from the knoll, the autopsy team would have HAD to have known that.

Additionally the orientation of JFK’s head at Z312 is almost SIDE on to the Knoll area and it would be extremely likely that had a bullet struck that some of the left hand side of the brain would be damaged. It was not.

Having studied this subject for many years and having once believed in a conspiracy, I still feel dismay that so many researchers believe a shot struck from the right front just because it looks that way from a casual viewing of the Z film. Actually had JFK been struck from the front we would almost certainly see a very short violent backward movement – we do not.

What we see is a rearward movement of about 1 ft per second as opposed to the forward movement between Z312 and Z313 which is approx 4 to 5ft per second depending on how close to Z313’s exposure, the bullet struck.

Harris’ theory is entirely dependent on his notion that four people in the limo were exhibiting a “startle reaction” in response to a shot at Z-285. If you really want to see that, I suppose you can, but apparently you have to want to.

Michael Russ very tediously went over witness testimony to see if Harris has correctly represented it.

John, this has nothing to do with my personal “interpretation” of the film. It has everything to do with the verifiable facts. I don’t understand why you would make a statement like that, since I have posted those facts before in your forum. Let’s review:

1. Both the Nobel prize winning physicist, Dr. Luis Alvarez and the similarly qualified Dr. Michael Stroscio have confirmed that there was a loud and startling noise at frame 285.

2. Five people (not four), plus Zapruder, reacted beginning at 290-292, within the same 1/6th of one second.

3. Three of those people simultaneously dropped their heads by 27-35 degrees.

4. Greer lifted his foot from the gas and spun around at near inhuman speed, in perfect unison with the other reactions. Watch him John, and check out Kellerman too:

6. In spite of all the nutter nitpicking, the Warren Commission’s conclusion, based on the testimonies of numerous witnesses, settles the question of what the witnesses actually heard that day. They concluded:

“.a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced. Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together.”

At one point during the hearings, Warren Commissioner Allen Dulles noted the overwhelming consistency of these witnesses, when he described the ratio of those confirming that shooting scenario in comparison with others,

“There has been a certain amount of testimony indicating there was a longer pause between the report of the first shot… and the second and third shots, that is not absolutely unanimous but I would say it is something like 5 to 1 or something of that kind.”

The simple fact that 6 people, including three who dropped their heads, reacted simultaneously, confirms that the scientists were correct. There was indeed, a loud and startling noise then, and the people we see reacted were very clear about what they heard, which was a high powered rifle shot.

Boy, talk about disinformation ,Bob. Kilduff said that ” it was simply a matter of a bullet through the head” and then pointed to where he was told by Burkley where the wound was- the right temporal area-NOT the back of the head. He said nothing about trajectory. He said nothing about entrance or exit wounds.Why would he? He was a Press Secretary with no medical knowledge, did not witness any medical examination, nor closely see JFK after he was shot. Of course, if you want to claim that he was infallible, how do you explain his error stating that Connolly was shot twice-in the side and in the wrist? How do you explain his error in stating that JFK was shot only once? So Bob, why don’t you give us your medical opinion as to how the conclusions that JFK was hit only from behind were in error? Tell us why 3 board-certified pathologists with a collective half-century of training and experience got it wrong while you have gotten it right. Or why don’t you tell us how every Forensic Pathologist to have examined the evidence (save Wecht) has supported the conclusion that all shots that hit JFK came from behind? Did you go to McGill? Harvard? Hopkins? Which Medical School did you attend that makes you an expert in this matter when real experts have conflicting views?

The relevant testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally and that of William Greer are all mutually corroborative and effectively discredit the allegation of a shot at frame 285.

Each of these witnesses heard three shots and three shots only. Each witness accurately and unarguably placed the first two shots well in advance of frame 285. In the case of Governor Connally, the ambiguity of a second shot he admittedly did NOT hear is persuasively offset by the fact that the shot actually struck him and inflicted severe wounds.

Each of the witnesses heard a third shot. Governor and Mrs. Connally affirmatively associated the third shot with striking the President’s skull and being showered with blood and tissue.

William Greer also heard the third shot, and even though his Warren Commission testimony does not reflect a direct association of what he heard with what he saw, frame 313 of the Zapruder film establishes beyond any doubt that Greer was turned and looking directly at the President at the precise moment of the third shot’s fatal impact.

Neither Governor Connally nor Mrs. Connally nor William Greer manifested visible startle reactions to a shot their respective testimonies clearly and irrefutably indicate they did not hear. More pointedly, nothing in their testimonies or experience supports the conclusion that a shot at frame 285 ever occurred.

Texas U.S. Senator Ralph Yarborough described this timing sequence in his affidavit filed with the Warren Commission. He said there was approximately half as much time between the second and third shots as between the first and second shots he heard. Yarborough estimated the time between the first and second shots as three seconds and the time between the second and third shots as a second and a half. Yarborough was in the car with the Johnsons that was immediately behind the Secret Service follow-up car.

Even if Dr. Stroscio wasn’t right, the gunshot which mashed into a curb, sent out shards of concrete, and cut open Tague’s cheek, did not leave copper traces in the concrete, as Henry Hurt has shown in Reasonable Doubt (p. 136). Since the ammunition allegedly used in the shooting consisted in bullets coated in cooper (p. 138), that gunshot is a conspiracy fact.

The metal debris trail shown in the X-ray of JFK’s skull is likewise another conspiracy fact. So much so, it FORCED the HSCA medical panel to move the rear skull entry wound upward 4-5 inches. Even Humes choked on this debris trail. No copper jacketed bullet like C.E.399 would have made it.

Tague-may he rest in peace-was a hero in the tragedy for advocating hard to get himself heard, which momentarily messed up the coverup efforts enough to bring about the single-bullet theory which was a theory of weak desperation. That the coverup was messed up like that weakened the charge tbat Oswald did it alone.

Harris speculates that when Greer turned, he lifted his right foot off the gas pedal. That if true would explain the limo slow-down. But the extant Z-film does not depict a limo slow-down, as does the Nix film. That’s one reason I have to discount Harris’s account. It’s based on a film we’re told is a true depiction of events but which for many reasons cannot be trusted. Otherwise I like his analysis.

The Z-film actually does depict a limo slow-down, it’s just not as noticeable as in Nix because of the narrow field of view. The slow-down is quite easy to see in this ‘panoramic’ version of the Z-film:

Harris focuses on the simple issue of, could Oswald have fired two shots in 1.5 seconds? His work attempts to show us that Oswald couldn’t have done so, which proves a conspiracy. Harris leaves it to others to focus on the who involved, how many shooters, did Oswald fire any shots, etc. Harris introduces the possible location of the Dal-Tex Bldg. as another sniper’s nest. The shot that hit JFK’s back may well have come from there.

replying to my own comment about Harris, I didn’t know that there was a video on this page by Harris himself, saying essentially what I said-that LHO couldn’t have fired the two shots that were 1.5 seconds apart. Sorry for skipping over you, Bob Harris :-(.

Paul, I have written and made presentations addressing all of those issues, including whodunnit, sniper locations (Daltex, YES), motive, etc. But I really don’t want to get off track in this particular thread. I did however, make a fairly extensive presentation which covers the shooting from start to finish and many other subjects. If you watch it all, please let me know what you think.

Like most others here, I’ve viewed the Zapruder film thousands of times, in slow-mo, stop action, frame-by-frame and repeating loop. There are certain parameters that are pretty obvious . . .-JFK waving at the crowd before disappearing behind the sign (~208)-clutching his throat as he emerges (~225)-the headshot at 313.

Mindful of Connally’s testimony regarding his turn to the right – together with my observation – I sense that Connally was struck sometime around frame 290. For me it is inconceivable that Connally was struck before 225. I don’t believe that JFK and Connally were struck by a ‘common’ bullet.

At 248 Connally appears to be struggling, from a constrained position on the jump seat, to turn all the way around to the right. At 272 his posture appears upright and healthy as he stretches up and around to look at Kennedy. It’s hard to believe that a bullet had gone through his back and chest at that point in time. If Mrs. Connally thought her husband was struck at 285, perhaps she was right.

Bob Harris I did watch your video on the whole event, and liked it a lot. One issue that puzzled me, though, is your comments about Clint Hill’s actions. I’m not criticizing here-as I say I liked the whole video, but what’s the best conclusion to draw on Hill?

I have always felt Kellerman wasn’t ducking, but being forced forward due to Greer stepping on the brakes and slowing down as Jonathan mentioned in the Nix film. I don’t think he stopped, but I do believe he reacted in shock. As for the simultaneous shots, my grandfather said the same thing, though he thought there may have been more than three.

If Kellerman’s head dips forward, do we see the others do the same? (I can’t recall, but I believe Harris is of the view that they all reacted to a shot instead of sudden slowing down from breaking).

Your grandfather’s right about the limo slowing down (I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the film in the other thread and how noticeable the slow down was).

Is it possible that Greer slowed down because he wanted to analyze what was happening, or was he in shock & froze for an instant, or did he try to permit Clint Hill from jumping on the back of the Presidential limo or any combination of the above?

Alvarez also did a frame-by-frame analysis of the limo’s velocity and concluded that it began to slow down at frame 300. He suggested that Greer probably lifted his foot from the gas at 294. the reactions began at 290. This is how he diagrammed the slowdown.

Gerry, based on a study of the Bronson film, I’m pretty sure that Hill jumped from the running board at about frame 301, less than a single second after the shot at 285, which had to have been what provoked him to do that.

So the WC (interesting designation in a British context) invested much brain power in tortuously laying the groundwork for how the timing of the shots could have fit the witness statements but still could have supported the Lone Gunman scenario. But Tague comes along and muddies the waters. The WC was an Executive Branch committee charged with a task deemed crucial to an upcoming election, and was under considerable time and budget constraints. Thus the Single Bullet Theory was born. Nobody bought it, except a certain persistent stratum of American society, but the staying power of that stratum should be an inspiration to us all. Because the next time a deeply indebted, mob-connected non-entity guns down the only suspect/witness in a presidential homicide, in a room brim full of policemen, we should be grateful that the president’s spouse will be spared the trauma of a coroner’s inquest and a trial of the suspect by jury. God bless America.

SBT proponents claim that Tague is irrelevant. That the SBT exists primarily because the bullet did not strike the limo, so it had to go through JFK and Connally. Tague was wounded by a fragment from the head shot!

[But the nose and base are inside the limo, and the mid-section is stuck on the outer table of JFK’s skull! I submit therefore, that it’s highly unlikely that Tague was struck by a ricocheting bullet from the head shot. Also, those fragments in the car can’t be from the head shot and more likely what caused Connally’s wounds. The head shot was from the front. That bullet or part thereof would’ve exited if it didn’t just disintegrate from being a frangible or exploding bullet.]

Well, for one thing, JFK’s head pretty much exploded from the impact of the head shot, so I consider any theorizing about ballistics and such to be so much whistling in the wind, All the King’s Horses, etc.

Whoever fired the shots in Dealy Plaza lacked expertise. Perhaps that is what has given so much impetus to the Oswald Did It scenario. But doesn’t that widen the field rather than narrow it?

While preparing to do his part in what was to be the coverup of the assassination, John E. Hoover at the FBI did not want a missed shot. He got one, though, with the one that nicked Tague, and tat, to quote Alain, “muddied the waters”, thanks to Tague’s persistence and some help by a Dallas newspaper reporter whose name was Jim Lehrer..yep, the same Lehrer.

No, they are not reacting to something the President said, because by that point he was incapable of talking, as he had a hole in his neck. The point at which JFK said his last words: “My God, I’m hit!” happened earlier, when the first shot fired from behind missed the car, striking the pavement just behind it, a fragment hitting the back of JFK’s head, stinging him like a really bad hornet sting. At this point he put up his hands, shown in the Zapruder film.

Mike, I think we are all so used to studying the Zapruder film in slow motion that we forget to consider how this looked in real time. I made this brief video awhile back, running this segment as closely as possible, to 18 fps. See if you don’t get a different impression from seeing the reactions as they were on 11/22/63.

Prior to that, they did indeed turn to the rear and check JFK. But those reactions were much earlier than 290 and were spread out over roughly 100 frames. The reactions to the shot at 285 all began in the same 3 frames, or 1/6th of one second.

And the people in the limo as well as the large majority of relevant witnesses in Dealey that day told us exactly what they heard. It was two “closely bunched” gunshots at the end of the attack. 285 and 313 were 1.5 seconds apart.

Some have argued that they were thrown forward because Greer hit the brakes, but Dr. Alvarez and others have proven that the limo slowdown did not begin until after 290-292. Alvarez had the slowdown beginning at about frame 300 and suggested that Greer probably lifted his foot from the gas at about 294, a third of a second earlier.

So what other alternatives are there?

They were after all, in the middle of a shooting at the time. And almost all of the witnesses who commented about the timing of the shots, including the people closest to the President, described spacing that matched perfectly with 285 and 313, as did the visible reactions, and as did the scientists.

I urge those who wish to get one of the most comprehensive studies of the assassination to get a copy of this book. It’s a long read, but I have yet to hear anyone debunk it, except to try to smear the author with ad hominem attack, as Photon has tried to do (unsuccessfully).

If JFK uttered anything, it’s likely he said it just before being struck in the throat as he soon as he emerges from the Stemmons Freeway Sign.

This means that Kellerman is just a little off by the timing of JFK’s utterance (don’t forget that Kellerman was sitting in the front seat of the limo, so he indeed passed the Stemmons Freeway Sign per his testimony, but JFK might not have at that instant when he uttered “My God, I’m hit”).

I believe this reconciles with all known facts: JFK utters remark from the shot to his back with a slight delay until he reaches the point of the Stemmons Sign, Kellerman who is forward of JFK hears that utterance after he’s past the sign, then JFK is hit in the throat and can’t possibly talk with that neck injury.

According to Don Thomas shots were fired at the following Zapruder frames…174, 205, 223, 313 and 325. The shot at 174 missed. According to JSA’s interpretation of Don Thomas’s interpretation JFK spoke the words I’ve been hit after shot 174 was fired and hitting the pavement behind the President causing pavement to strike the President in the head.

As far fetched as that is I am still going to refute it with the photographic evidence.

Here is frame 189 of the Zapruder Film. JFK is waving to the crowd. You can look at every frame from 174 to 205 and you will not see anything other than JFK waving to the crowd.

I think there is solid evidence for a shot just after 313, but it was fired from a much weaker weapon, probably some kind of handgun. As such, it was drowned out by the much louder high powered rifle shot at 313, just a few frames earlier.

That shot was recognized by people in the immediate vicinity – Brehm, J. Hill, Moorman, Clint Hill and a few others. Most people didn’t hear it or perhaps, wrote it off as an echo of the 313 shot.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the evidence and its interpretation, presented through Mr. Harris’s summary of the Zapruder Film. Actually, I feel that President Kennedy’s wounding/reaction, and the Lapel Snap, are the key to proving two shots from different shooters. I’ll explain:

JFK’s hands are actually moving up to his throat (even given his 6 frame reaction time). By the time we see JFK’s hands come out behind the sign they are actually about the level of his upper chest and on the move toward his throat. I think we call all agree on this. So, if the reaction timing of 1/3 sec, or 6 Z-frames is true, it moves JFK’s wounding even FURTHER UP Elm street or in the neighborhood of Z-216.

So, why do I propose this? Well…since CLOTHING DOESN’T NEED REACTION TIMES ( as we all agree humans do) then how can we have such a LONG PAUSE (at least 6 frames) for the bullet, moving at least 1600 fts to be visibly sighted by Zapruder’s film showing Governor Connolly’s Jacket Lapel Snap? That’s pretty remarkable. So, allow JFK his 6 frames, allow the Gov. his 6 frames. But do NOT ALLOW the inanimate object, in this case, Connolly’s clothes any. The react to physics. Ok?

Think about this for a few minutes. We have this ‘reaction’ time thing…right? Mr. Harris states that it’s in the 1/3 second range. This leaves us 6 Zapruder Frames. Right? I feel this much of the argument is true. REACTION TIMES are valid.

What I don’t find valid is allowing the following:

1. No time for Kennedy’s being hit and his hands moving up.2. Connolly’s Jacket Flap being related to the shot that hit JFK.

To me it’s just a matter of visual inspection. Kennedy’s hands are almost at his throat when he emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway Sign. Connolly’s Jacket snap doesn’t happen for concurrently with JFK’s hands moving.

JFK was not faster than a speeding bullet. He could not have gotten his hands 2/3’s of the way to his throat before that Jacket Snap of Connolly’s.

Lastly, did anyone else make note of the error of Mr. Harris on the Gas Pedal thing? Has anybody else noted that both Greer and Kellerman’s heads snap backward (toward the rear after) after they turn back to actually driving vs. watching JFK before the head-shot?

The “lapel flip” is noise. It is not a bullet passing through Connally.

The bullet which passed through JFK’s neck passed by Connally’s LEFT side. This is clear if you look at the video.

I am going to use an animation made by Dale Myers to demonstrate what I mean and I will post a link to the actual frames at the end.

Look at this Dale Myers animation. But forget the lapel flip. That is insignificant noise. Connally’s true reaction is when he turns to his left and swipes with his hat.

At the exact same time that JFK reaches to his throat Connally is STARTLED by something to his LEFT. He turns quickly in that direction.

The bullet which passed through JFK , slowed down significantly, and exited his neck at a very low velocity. We know that from the testimony of Dr. Ronald Jones. He said that the wound in the neck, if an exit wound, was made by a missile moving at very low velocity. That bullet became CE399.

Here is Dale Myers animation which shows the synchronous movement of JFK and Connally.

“The bullet which passed through JFK , slowed down significantly, and exited his neck at a very low velocity. We know that from the testimony of Dr. Ronald Jones. He said that the wound in the neck, if an exit wound, was made by a missile moving at very low velocity. That bullet became CE399.”

Nope, CE399 was a missed shot. It entered the dirt and grass on the other side of Elm St. It never hit a single person. It was picked up by a SS or FBI agent and placed in the casket at Parkland as evidence by a SS agent, thinking he was helping collect evidence. The bullet that passed through Connally fragmented. At least one of these fragments was found on the floor of the limousine by the SS.

I’d rather rely on a slow motion version of the Z film than Dale Myers’ interpretation of it.

But doesn’t Dale Myers say that the lapel flip is the bulging of the jacket by an exiting bullet, not a pure lapel flipping per se? I could swear that I’ve seen him describe this in a televised documentary (he grabs the right side of a jacket at the edge of closed lapel and pulls outward).

You are talking about a different bullet. The bullet which struck Connally in the back probabily did strike with a velocity of 1800 fps but that was not the bullet that we are talking about.

Again, look at the video. The video tells the story.

The first bullet passed through JFK, slowed down to the point that it almost lodged in JFK’s throat , exited at a slow velocity, passed by Connally’s left side and STARTLED him.

John Connally was struck by a SECOND bullet, (the one traveling 1800 fps) that completely missed JFK , about 1 second later.

Look at the video. It tells the story of what happened.

Look at JFK, he almost chokes on something. That is evidence the bullet was slowed down. Also look to the testimony of Dr. Ronald Jones who testified the EXIT wound on the neck was small and round and looked like an entry wound and if it was an exit wound it was caused by a missile moving at a very low velocity.

And finally, we have the bullet! We have CE399 which looks exactly like a bullet that passed through JFK and slowed down almost lodging in JFK’s throat would look.

When I speak of 1800 fps, this is the theoretical velocity of a bullet IF it hit JFK from behind and passed through his neck.

The muzzle velocity of the MC round is around 2,165 fps. If it didn’t hit anything but Connally, it would strike him faster than 1,800 fps but slower than 2,165 fps.

This YT video you allude to pertains to the SBT.

How can CE399 lodge in JFK’s neck? (I believe CE399 is a plant).

There is a theory that a low velocity round may have lodged in his throat after a GK shot using either a light caliber weapon or a frangible round that didn’t break up (the size of the tracheotomy seems too big and could’ve been enlarged after someone gouged it out in search of this lodged bullet).

The Western Cartridge Company 6.5mm bullet would easily pass through JFK’s neck. It is NOT a low velocity round.

You have mis-interpreted or wrongly emphasized what Dr. Ronald Jones actually said which is this:

Dr. JONES – The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering* rather than exiting from a patient.

*Gerry’s emphasis added.

He later HYPOTHESIZES that it would have to be a low velocity missile or fragment IF it is an exit wound, but he personally thinks it looks more like an entrance wound, as other doctors also said.

Mike, you’ve got to remember that Specter was asking leading questions and steering the respondents to testify what he wanted them to say.

Here is Specter following up with a leading question which would be objected to and overruled if the WC hearing was a true trial:

Mr. SPECTER – Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Now, if I may quote Dr. McAdams, using critical thinking, how on earth can a 6.5mm WCC cartridge with a muzzle velocity of 2,165 fps taken at a target not that far off exit soft tissue at LOW velocity?

The WC proved this was not the case when it shot through a ballistic gelatin block simulating JFK’s neck. The WCR in Chapter 3 says that the path of the bullet was ‘straight and stable’. It did NOT lodge.

I agree with you that Connally was hit by a separate bullet(s), other than the one that struck Kennedy, but I disagree that CE399 or any FMJ round of similar caliber struck Kennedy from behind and exited at low velocity or lodged in JFK’s throat.

Arlen Specter merely asked Dr. Ronald Jones a hypothetical question that aligned with the SBT but it has no basis in fact or is unrealistic.

Dr. Jones thought the wound was a wound of entry because it was small and circular and indicative of a wound of entry.

He very clearly states that if it was a wound of exit it would have to be associated with a missile moving a very slow velocity. In fact he says one would think the bullet barely made it through the soft tissue. (He is suggesting the bullet would almost have lodged in the throat)

A bullet traveling at the speed you suggest would not have left a very small hole. It would have left a very large hole in the neck as it exited. That large hole did not and does not exist. That is a fact.

In other words, the evidence that a bullet traveling at high velocity exited the Presidents neck DOES NOT EXIST. That is but one problem with John Hunt’s analysis.

John Hunt believes CE399 was planted. His article sounds good but it is not connected to reality. Reality , in this instance, is first defined by what we see in the Zapruder film. The Zapruder film is giving off all kinds of signals that the bullet exited at a slow velocity contradicting the studies he wants to rely on.

In short, what was “magic” about this bullet is that it almost lodged in the Presidents throat.

Here is the section of Dr. Jones testimony that is relevant…

Mr. SPECTER – In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, “Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound. What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. JONES – The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.

Mr. SPECTER – Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. JONES – Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.

It almost sounds like you’re trying to justify a new theory about an exit wound at the throat that was made from a low velocity missile that passes through JFK from behind.

However, I think you’re building from a wrong premise – that is, a hypothetical one posed to Dr. Jones who believes the neck wound was one of entrance, NOT exit.

As for John Hunt, if he believes CE399 is a plant as you say, then by necessity, he’s not arguing that CE399 exited JFK at ANY velocity. He’s only analyzing that aspect of the single bullet theory proposed by WC proponents that CE399 allegedly caused bodily damage below the velocity threshhold at which it would not deform.

Bottom line, any first bullet fired from the MC would’ve been travelling close to 2,000 fps when it struck JFK, and that by definition is not low velocity and neither would it loose enough velocity through JFK’s back and neck to lodge in his throat unless it struck something very hard.

However, I believe it’s possible that a bullet may have been lodged by a low caliber weapon fired from the right front or perhaps from the south side of the GK.

If you’re espousing a low velocity missile through JFK from the rear that lodges in his throat or passes through, you have to explain the trajectory through JFK as well as how it ended up on a stretcher as the WC story goes.

You are not analyzing the data. You are analyzing something you “think”, not what the evidence is showing.

You go where the evidence leads you.

You say “any first bullet would have been traveling 2000 fps”. But that is not what the evidence is telling us. That is what you “think”. It is not what the evidence is telling us.

Many witnesses describe the first shot as sounding like a “firecracker”. This is the first indication that the first shot was somehow different.

The exit hole in the neck is small and circular, that is another piece of evidence telling us the bullet exited at a slow velocity.

The Zapruder film shows us that JFK is appearing to be choking on something. That is another piece of evidence the bullet was traveling slow.

Connally is starteled by something to his LEFT at exactly the same time JFK appears to be choking on something. That is more corroboration that the bullet exited at a low velocity.

And finally we have the bullet, CE399, which by its condition tells us that it exited at a low velocity and did not hit anything hard.

All of the evidence is consistent on this point.

That bullet did not have a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps when it left the gun.

That bullet is a “magic” bullet because it was a dud.

Look at the Zapruder film and understand what it is telling you.

Look at the small exit hole in the neck and understand what that is telling you.

And yes, I am stating a new theory of what happened. I am stating that John Hunt and all the others who jumped off that bridge with him have made a mistake. And I am saying they made that mistake because they did not take the time to fully understand the photographic evidence.

The WC ballistic experts proved that MC bullets had a muzzle velocity of 2,165 fps.

If CE399 is a dud and lodged in JFK’s neck, then answer these various questions:

a) How did it pierce his back and end up in his neck?

b) How could it lodge in his throat BUT still create an ‘exit’ wound?

c) How did its base get flattened if it didn’t tumble out of him?

d) Why is CE399 devoid of biological matter and cloth fiber?

The Zapruder film indeed confirms that JFK is reacting to a shot, perhaps the shot to his back and/or both that shot and another shot from the front which struck him in the neck.

If you say the bullet lodged in his throat from a lower velocity missile fired from the front, then yeah, I might buy that.

I give you credit for thinking out of the box, but your evidence is based on a response to a hypothetical question when the throat wound normally appeared to be an entrance wound to your prime expert and to most of the other Parkland doctors.

Now, if I may quote Dr. McAdams, using critical thinking, how on earth can a 6.5mm WCC cartridge with a muzzle velocity of 2,165 fps taken at a target not that far off exit soft tissue at LOW velocity?

You are correct about that, Jones was out to lunch on this issue.

The bullet lost very little velocity transiting Kennedy’s torso.

ER doctors are not forensic pathologists, and really should not be asked to make forensic determinations they aren’t qualified to make.

The WC could not prove that bullet had a muzzle velocity of 2165 fps. That bullet had what ever muzzle velocity it had when it left the gun.

The bullet is deformed along its long axis. It is not deformed along its minor axis. If the bullet had hit anything hard it would have deformed along the minor axis. It is called the toothpaste effect.

Toothpaste effect = loss of the central core mass of a jacketed bullet as a result of deformation of the intact jacket and squeezing of the lead core backwards (a toothpaste effect)

The deformation along the long axis indicates that JFK’s body did work on that bullet which means JFK’s body slowed the bullet down.

The toothpaste effect is but more evidence that the bullet slowed down. It takes a lot of work to squeeze the lead out the base of a bullet.

You are still ignoring what we see in the Z Film.

Do you see that JFK looks like he is choking?

Do you see Connally’s startle reaction to his left?

How do you explain the small circular EXIT wound in the neck?

You can say the bullet was moving at 2165 fps till the cows come home but it does not match the EVIDENCE. The evidence, and I mean all the evidence, is telling us that bullet exited JFK’s neck traveling at a very slow velocity.

“The “lapel flip” is noise. It is not a bullet passing through Connally.”

I am certain that the “lapel flip” is actually illumination by a reflection probably from the side mirror. It has to be a double reflection as the mirror is not facing the sun. What actually happens there? There is a bright area on Connolly’s chest in 222 and 223 that goes dark in 224. There is also a bright specular reflection on the handhold in front of Connolly in 222 and 223 that also goes dark in 224. Here is the key observation that eluded me for a long time. If that specular is from the vertical part of the handhold, then it can’t be from direct illumination from the sun. The sun is up at 37 degrees and Zapruder is slightly above the car. Apply the law of reflections and you see that this isn’t close. Zapruder would have to be 40 feet lower to see a specular directly from the sun there. It seems pretty clear that the specular is on the vertical part. The only other possibility is the “corner” (which is actually rounded). A specular from there appears in 247 and it is very different and higher. Since Zapruder is nearly on the same level as the handhold and the handhold post is nearly vertical, the light producing that specular would have to be nearly horizontal to produce a specular seen by Zapruder. Light reflecting off a vertical cylinder gets spread out horizontally so the horizontal position of the light source can’t be determined but light coming from the mirror and striking Connolly’s chest would be approximately horizontal and it would pass right by that handhold post. So the same reflection could be illuminating the handhold and Connolly’s chest. I am working on this now. I think the hat popping up might be blocking the reflection and the view of the handhold. I think it pops up so fast because Connolly is trying to lift it up to get it out of the way and it is stuck or snagged. That would explain his shoulder rotation and, if his legs are crossed up so he can’t use them (and he is sardined in there) then that would also explain why he falls against the side of the car. If his hat released suddenly then it would pop up quickly.

JFK has ALREADY been hit by the time he emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway Sign.

(I read elsewhere that the reaction time is about 2 to 3 Z-frames IIRC).

At Z-190, he stops waving and begins lowering his hand.

Even Michael T. Griffith says that Jackie’s close scrutiny of JFK after she emerges from behind the sign herself (after his quizzical look begins after Z 190) indicates that he has already been shot (something is wrong IOW).

The jury is still out on that lapel flip. Some say it could be from a gust of wind. If it’s a bullet strike, then Connally’s wrist is still intact as he’s still clutching onto his stetson whilst his shirt cuff is not bloodied. I believe his wrist was hit after he turned on his back. So a separate bullet.

Somehow, someway, the debate skewed from the central theme of rapprochement with Socialist Cuba during the Kennedy Administration. The JCS already pegged Kennedy soft on Communism. A willingness to negotiate with Castro may have been considered treason by more extreme factions within the US military/intelligence/business nexus (Deep Politics). The fact that LBJ committed to continuing JFK’s ‘domestic’ policies, while dismantling his foreign policy of peaceful coexistence, is telling. Johnson had no other reason, neither altruistic, nor rational, other than Nixon “might” accuse him of being soft on communism in ’64, to eviscerate Kennedy’s foreign policy. Regime changes, by coup d’etat indicate an abandonment of a course, or the return to a previous course. Certainly, the restraint JFK applied to the military during his brief tenure, was unleashed during the LBJ (Brown-Root/Dallas Oil camp) and Nixon (Bush/Rockefeller camp) years. Sadly, it was the latter two politicians who were sponsored by forces with deep connections to the military/industrial power structure aligned with the CIA/Mob/Cubans.For some unfathomable reason, Cuba remains for the United States, a pariah. Surely, we can not look at our government’s action in foreign countries as above suspicion of “special interest” motivation. Our history with Cuba is replete with “special interest” motivation, economic colonialism and exploitation; yet we cry foul at Fidel for eradicating these conditions and “exporting revolution” to other countries. Really? We exported the financial/military means for atrocities of butchering dictators in Iran,Uganda,Libya,Spain,Guatemala, Argentina, and Nicaragua, to name a few. If we did not do so, then our “allies” did so with our tacit approval. The French in Vietnam, for example.Instead of micro analyzing the minutia of the JFK assassination details (shots fired and when), accept that more than one shooter was involved. The larger geopolitical implications, and questions stemming from the JFK coup, remain unanswered.The fact that every American Presidential Assassination, EXCEPT JFK’S, was up close and personal with handguns, indicates a professionally executed coup with high level plotter. Dr. King’s murder was executed the same way, proven in a court of law, to involve a high level military/police/mob conspiracy.

However, it is not as much a lapel flip as a bulging out of the right side of his jacket after a bullet passes through his chest. The spray of tissue and/or blood by the exiting bullet is likely to have caused this bulging or expansion of his jacket on the right side.

However, I think that even his necktie flips or blows to his left. If it does, then maybe it is a gust of wind.

(Note: I’ve seen a documentary wherein Dr. Wecht says it could be a gust of wind.)

Alex, respectfully, you are wrong. There most certainly was a large, elliptical hole in the Governor’s jacket lapel. While it is true that, unfortunately, the jacket was cleaned, there is photographic evidence supporting the pathway of the bullet which entered just near the back of his armpit, exiting the lapel and on and on. In fact, you can actually see the entrance wound on the back of the Governor after he is pulled/collapses on Nellie on the Zapruder Film itself ( It is worth looking at a good, clear, film of it). Actually, you can see that this bullet struck something because the hole it left in the jacket ( and likewise the Gov’s back) was elliptical (as compared to being a ’round’ wound/hole). In any case, the lapel movement isn’t irrelevant because Posner and Myers speak so matter of factly about it. In the ABC Special on the JFK Assassination, Myers goes to great pains to actually use the word ‘pin-point’ the ‘exact moment’, according to him by using the lapel flap.

In any case….the lapel flap really is a big deal though. As a bullet did most certainly pass through it as documented by the hole it left behind.

Besides, all of which, while it was windy that day…the wind was blowing directly into the faces of the President, Gov. and other passengers. Think of a way for the Governor’s Lapel to flip ‘forward into the wind’. Can’t be done. The jacket lapel needed a rear to front external source..and that was the bullet. There was a study done on the wind speed that day. Actually, someone did a study on the matter which was exploded out of JFK’s skull (forward…as demonstrated by it’s presence in front of JFK at frame 313)…and it’s movement backward as it caught the wind. Very interesting stuff.

Actually….the ‘hole’ was just below the lapel. I was wrong about the location of it. However, all else being the same, it’s important because of the conclusions that Posner and Myers ascribed to it. Sorry Alex. On the other hand….the wind was still in their faces and that lapel popped for a reason.

In isolation, the lapel flap would prove little. But it happened at the same time as a radical change in Connally.

From Itek:

By frame 232-234 there is strong evidence that the Governor is reacting to a significant effect on his body; or from other data, to a bullet wound. He placed the time of his reaction at 234. We studied the film in this area to determine if there were any striking changes in his physical appearance which could be interpreted as the onset of a reaction. Five photo analysts studied the original film from frames 222-240. They all concluded independently that somewhere between 223-226 there are signs of the beginning of a significant change in the governor’s position and appearance.

I totally agree with that. My point is this: Kennedy was clearly reacting…and his hands were were on the move toward his throat ‘before’ the earliest indication of Connolly being wounded. It’s like Kennedy isn’t supposed to have reaction time and Connolly is? Or, and my viewpoint: Kennedy can’t have had the time to move his hands up to his upper chest (reacting to the 2nd shot) while we can all see the Posner/Myers lapel flap. Kennedy was good…but not faster than the man of steel.

The animations that show on your website are the perfect example of what Leslie Sharp calls the “cropped photo” effect. They give a false impression of what actually occurred.

When we see the entire frame, not your crops , it becomes clear what is really happening.

Starting at frame 223 (as Itek notes) Connally is reacting to something that STARTLED him to his LEFT. That is obvious. It is also obvious that Connally’s STARTLE reaction is synchronous with JFK’s movements of his hands to his neck. They are both reacting to the same event, but Connally is reacting to his LEFT.

I don’t think “cool”,in the figurative sense,has any place in the lexicon of our generation.

You state that the answer is “closely reasoned”.I interpret that as a nod to how the argument was constructed,rather than an endorsement.

So , please clarify where you stand with Bob’s theory.Do you :1)Agree with it?2)Disagree with it?3)Or,have you not yet looked at it closely enough to decide?

My guess – and it’s just that , a guess – is that this theory has not really caught your eye before and that you present it,perfectly reasonably,as a matter of interest for your readers.Nothing more , nothing less.

50 years later and dead men still tell no tales. Were a conspirator, or an assassin for that matter, come forward, he’d (or his statements) would be endlessly debated, analyzed, shifted through, compared, and regurgitated ad nausea. We’d want to know where he fired from, how many shots, his fellow assassins (if known) and how the plot was executed, by whom, and why. Would we ever get to the heart of the conspiracy: For what reason(s) was it necessary, for/by whom, to remove John F Kennedy from his Presidency of the United States – in other words – why TREASON?

It seems to me that Files claimed to have bitten a .223 shell and left it at the assassination site (grassy knoll?). It also seems that someone checked the headstamp on that shell and it turned out to have been from a batch that was either introduced or made in 1964. Does that still stand? I’m sure I’m prejudiced about Files, but his story has been rebutted by any number of knowledgeable people. As for Files, he’s a career criminal who tried to murder a cop. He’s in prison, which is exactly where he needs to be, forever.

by the fact that you are saying he(Files) would know everything about the assassination by reading all accounts of it, it was obvious to him that someone fired from the grassy knoll, if not him who?, was there not a photograph of someone walking, not running away from the area, who Files identified as himself, why should we all believe what you think?

I remain in opposition to the mirco-analysis of minutia regarding the JFK coup. We know he was assassinated and we know the Warren Omission was a flagrant whitewash; we know LBJ scammed people into sitting on the Warren Omission; he also interfered in an ongoing federal investigation (calling Dallas to direct focus to Oswald; calling Parkland while Oswald was dying). We know Hoover obstructed the investigation from start to finish, as did the CIA, and ONI, The Signal Corps, and Ass’t Atty General Katzenbach. They knew Kennedy was dead and removed, but the “appearance” of looking into the murder was most important, as the vapors, of gun power from multiple weapons fired, lingered over Dealy Plaza. If my team kills you (former Chief of Police) and I am now the Chief of Police, how much time and effort would the conspirators expect me to expend searching for your killers? They’d expect me to put something together to “convince the public that ******* was the lone assassin, and that there are no conspirators still at large.” Robert Kennedy had a “get Hoffa” squad. Obviously, there was a retaliatory “get JFK” squad that was well organized and connected enough that those responsible for the “big event” could ensure it would be covered up. Who (includes many), directed the post assassination drama?

To be fair, according to David Talbot Katzenbach was a close ally of the Kennedy family, and his boss was RFK. He was likely following RFK’s advice at the time (who thought his brother was the victim of a conspiracy).

When James Tague was allowed to come forth and testify to the FBI about the bullet that nicked him in the face during the asassination of JFK, it certainly did “change history” as he said in his book. The Warren Commission was forced to come up with a theory that I bet many of its members didn’t believe themselves-the Single Bullet theory. The testimony of Governor Connally made the Single Bullet theory as silly then as it always will be. Connally said he was hit by a bullet that did not hit Kennedy.

James Tague is an interesting story. However…he could have been hit with any fragment…even a fragment from the head shot itself. With the 3 shots…it’s just ask likely he could have been hit with a shot ricochetting off a tree…curb…off the top of JFK’s head…etc. It’s like the crack in the Limo Glass as shown in the second of the Altgen’s photos. The crack was on the inside..and after the last shot. Suppose part of the last blast just exited JFK’s head and continued to hit the curb in/near Tague.

They found two fragments from a deformed WCC cartridge in the limo that pertain to the nose and base of the bullet.

JFK’s x-ray (anterior-posterior) shows a 6.5mm round fragment embedded in the outer table of his skull (defies logic as this would have to be a middle slice of that same bullet), which begs the question, what fragment large enough remained to fly over the windshield and raised sun visors to travel the far distance to Tague or that curb when the windshield and chrome-plated steel frame were hit supposedly by the largest, fastest and heaviest fragments?

It’s unlikely. Even the WC wasn’t so sure this was possible.

Interestingly enough, Tink Thompson says the crack in the windshield may have resulted from a second head shot from the rear at Z-328 and he shows in that frame that the sunlight reflection off the windshield blurred which was caused by the windshield bellowing from an impact by that Z-328 bullet.

Moreover, James Tague doesn’t say he was hit as a result of the fatal shot.

James Tague rules out the first shot as being the one that sprays up the chips which struck his face. So, that would certainly eliminate the first shot (the one which missed). Tague clearly mentions that things that went through his mind in his interview. He mentioned that he thought “What kind of an idiot would throw a fire-cracker at the President of the United States”. He also mentions that he heard 3 shots. So, all else being equal, Tague was hit by a fragment of something which rode over the top of the car and then struck the surface and chipped up materials which struck his face.

In his interview he didn’t mention after the whether he was injured after the 2nd or the 3rd (read that is injured by the 2nd or 3rd). Another interesting point about this discussion of James Tague: Mark Lane did an interview with him and had Mr. Tague place and X in the spot where he was standing…and an X in the place where the shot hit the street/curbing. Once again….Mr. Lane puts Mr. Tague in a place where he was not standing, as proven by photographs taken at the time of the shooting, to try to prove his theory for some reason. I hate it when he does that (like the alleged photo of Ruby outside the TSBD).

Interestingly, Tague was in a direct line from the TSBD window at/around the time of the 2nd and 3rd shots and heard 3 shots. Not 4/5/6. Most notably, because he was in front of the car….he was not subject to the echo chamber of Dealey Plazy sound characteristics.

1 Shooter. 3 Shots. Oswald either does it or not. Which all leads us to Oswald’s movements soon after the killing. Why did he head toward Ruby’s house at 222-225 S. Ewing…why was Tippit all over the place that afternoon…and, if he didn’t confront Tippit, Why wouldn’t he just go all the way down Zang to the Texas Theater to see his movie. Why go 6-10 blocks further East (toward Ruby’s) and then head to the Theater.

For me, it’s not that Oswald didn’t do it…it what were others doing when Oswald went looking for them.

Gerry….Thanks. I appreciate that comment. However, Mr. Tague’s recollections have been all over the board. Not that he’s even wrong…nor right I may add. If one were to listen to Clint Hill’s recollections you can see how even a trained Agent can get thing’s messed up over time. IN subsequent years Clint Hill has progressively gotten closer to the car at the last moment of the fatal head shot (z 313). Yet, in viewing the z film, or the Nix film, one can see that he is only just arriving at the left front wheel of the Queen Mary Follow-up car at the moment of impact. When I read ‘The Kennedy Detail’ I felt badly for him. This sure has haunted him. But my point is that time truly does cloud the reality. As for Mr. Tague, why all the controversy…he either heard 3 or 4..and you only get the chance to fill in a blank sheet once without others input (like police getting your statement right after an incident).

I’m thinking Teague was not hit by the shot that is seen to be the fatal shot, as that shot came from the front, I am more interested in where the shots came from and who pulled the triggers than when the bullets hit their target. I DO NOT believe Oswald fired any of the shots

I think if someone was able to digitalize frame 312 so that it could be examined from 360 degree views, alot of the debate about where the fatal shot came from would be put to rest. The angle does not appear to viable from TSBD given the direction of his head and the positioning of Jackie. I suspect it would show the most likely shot was from either the Dal-Tex Bldy or the Criminal Records Bldg.

I don’t believe a shot from the rear occurred at or around the Z-312 time.

However, I will agree that a right-rear shot from the TSBD would not exit out of the right side of JFK’s head, unless his head was turned more to the left, but that’s not the case since we see his full profile from Zapruder’s viewpoint.

If it was from the TSBD, it would’ve exited out the left side or forehead of JFK’s head.

check out these names in JFK assassination, James Files, Chauncey Holt- Roselli-,Nicoletti-,Caifano,- Harrelson these were (hitmen) known to be in Dealy Plaza during the assassination fuel for thought?there were a couple more I did not point out

when you add all the hitmen into the equation it is real hard not to think conspiracy, wonder what the odds of that many known hitmen to be at the scene of an assassination when it is happening? Of course we know the Warren Commission could not possibly be wrong. (sarcasm)

Now we have way too many shooters, unless we include back up teams just outside Dealey Plaza.

BTW, Joan Mellen at last November’s Lancer conference said she had an independent expert look at that fingerprint issue and he concluded that it wasn’t Mac Wallace.

However, I was reading Phillip E. Nelson’s book, LBJ: The Mastermind of the JFK Assassination, and his referred to another expert that made a 14 point comparison to conclude a match to Mac Wallace (IIRC, all you need is a 12 point match).

However, here’s a link to an essay on CTKA that deflates the LBJ did it claims.

No , don’t add Sarti. He was in hospital and not in the USA on 11/22/63.Don’t add Roscoe White , either : yes , he was in Dallas on 11/22/63 , but at the time of the assassination , per Sheriff Jim Bowles , he was about four miles from Dealey Plaza, helping to investigate a burglary.

I found some interesting reading by Grover Proctor Jr. Might give it a look if you have time, there is something about a call that Oswald was trying to make to Raliagh, North Carolina from the Dallas Jail

I’m unaware of any convincing evidence that any of the above named men were in Dealey Plaza on 11/22. Harrelson is a possible, but based more on what he did for a living and his potential for connections to likely guilty parties. Cain is a very ambiguous character, with possible ties to CIA and very definite ties to the Chicago mob. My understanding is that his eyesight was poor. He was more a back alley kind of man, who was suspected in at least one murder in that fashion when he was a cop. I don’t see him at the scene in Dallas. Chicago maybe, if that had gone off as planned on 11/2. Was his death suspicious? Two masked men entered a diner that he and other mobsters frequented, put him up against a wall, waited until they got an “all clear” from an outside lookout via prep radio, then blew his brains all over the diner. Nothing suspicious, I think.

Sure, I’ve belived that it was a conspiracy for decades. I believe that they tried it on 11/2, 11/18, and were successful on 11/22. I’ve seen pretty much all the photos, I believe. There are some suggestive pictures. But if you go for all the “certainties” about who was in Dealey Plaza you’d have a congregation that included Lucien Conein, Joseph Milteer, Edward Lansdale, Dave Morales, E. Howard Hunt, Charlie Harrelson, Chauncy Holt, Richard Cain, James Files, Chuck Nicoletti, Lucien Sarti and assorted Corsican thugs, Michel Victor Mertz, Jean Souetre, and on and on. Not likely. There are some of the above who might be involved, but the only photo I’ve seen that could be someone possibly involved is the look alike for Joseph Milteer. Other than that, sheer speculation. I do believe it’s possible for someone like Mertz, Morales, Harrelson to be involved, possibly Hunt at some remove. But evidence for their presence? Very thin. IMO.

Cain being killed the way he was was not suspicious. It the logical ending for the way the he’d lived. He was a protege of Giancana, and he was certainly an informant of sorts. But I don’t recollect him ever hurting Giancana. Marshal Caifano was another story, and I do believe that Caifano not only frequented the sandwich shop where Cain was murdered, but he was in there shortly before the deed was done. I think the more realistic speculation is that Cain stepped on one too many toes in Chicago and got whacked for it.

He’s an attorney from Chicago* and spoke about the Mob and their possible connection to the assassination or assassination attempts. He was hesitant to give specifics or names, so I won’t mention his name here.

A little off subject, but I’d say not fully. We need to comment on this Latina woman who was on the 6th floor with a walkie-talkie, doing a countdown for the 6th floor shooters. Why the need for a walkie-talkie if you’re only concerned with shooters right next to you? Was she communicating with another shooter(s) at another location(s)? Or other conspirators who didn’t shoot?

Boy, talk about disinformation ,Bob. Kilduff said that ” it was simply a matter of a bullet through the head” and then pointed to where he was told by Burkley where the wound was- the right temporal area-NOT the back of the head. He said nothing about trajectory. He said nothing about entrance or exit wounds.Why would he? He was a Press Secretary with no medical knowledge, did not witness any medical examination, nor closely see JFK after he was shot. Of course, if you want to claim that he was infallible, how do you explain his error stating that Connolly was shot twice-in the side and in the wrist? How do you explain his error in stating that JFK was shot only once? So Bob, why don’t you give us your medical opinion as to how the conclusions that JFK was hit only from behind were in error? Tell us why 3 board-certified pathologists with a collective half-century of training and experience got it wrong while you have gotten it right. Or why don’t you tell us how every Forensic Pathologist to have examined the evidence (save Wecht) has supported the conclusion that all shots that hit JFK came from behind? Did you go to McGill? Harvard? Hopkins? Which Medical School did you attend that makes you an expert in this matter when real experts have conflicting views?”

LOL You sound almost desperate, “Dr.” Photon. Are the Conspiracy Theorists getting the better of you again? Relax, tomorrow is Friday. You can have the whole weekend to unwind.

Tell me something, “Dr.” Photon. I’ve read Appendix VIII of the WCR (containing the Parkland doctors’ medical reports from 22/11/63), all of the Parkland doctors’ WC testimony, all of the HSCA interviews of Parkland doctors and all of the ARRB testimony from the Parkland doctors and guess what? None of them really changed their stories from the first day. The overwhelming consensus, from as late as 1998, was that JFK had a large gaping wound in the rear of his head, involving mostly occipital bone. For those who don’t know, the occipital bone is mainly in the lower rear of the skull, with the tiny cerebellum component of the brain directly under the lower section of the occipital bone.

Here is just a quick example of what I am saying about the doctors’ testimony. This is Dr. Robert McClelland testifying at an ARRB hearing on August 27, 1998:

“DR. McCLELLAND: And I think as testimony that this wound looked like everybody else has described it here. It was a very large wound and I would agree that it was at least seven or eight centimeters in diameter and was mostly really in the occipital part of the skull. And as I was looking at it, a fairly large portion of the cerebellum fell out of the skull, There was already some brain there, but during the tracheostomy more fell out and that was clearly cerebellum. I mean, there was no doubt about it, and I was that far from it (indicating). MR. GUNN: When you say “that far,” you’re putting your hands about twelve inches apart. DR. McCLELLAND: Twelve to 18 inches. MR. GUNN: About how long were you at the head of the table? DR. McCLELLAND: Oh, till they finished up the tracheostomy. I don’t know exactly how long that would be, but I guess, you know, it had to be an absolute minimum of five minutes & probably somewhere between five & ten, but that’s just a rough guess. But it was certainly more than just a, you know, transient view of it. It was a concentrated view.”