Watching the Giants’ 5-2 victory Wednesday night from afar, you might have thought that Madison Bumgarner was in desperate need of this winning outcome.

He threw his 10th consecutive quality start. He had been 1-5 in his first nine.

But after the game, Bumgarner said he really didn’t feel any different. He remarked that he’s pitched better games during this quality stretch and lost. All the while, he didn’t let the “W” or “L” next to his name rule his perceptions of his performance.

“It’s kind of funny, I guess,” Bumgarner said.

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It wouldn’t be the first time a 21-year-old pitcher understated his emotions to reporters. I’m sure it did help his psyche to get a win. But Bumgarner is so easygoing off the mound. I believed he was telling us the truth.

Instead, you could argue this victory did more to lift the spirits of several other Giants.

Pat Burrell, for one, who tripled for the first time since 2009 while starting for just the second time in 14 days this month. Bill Hall, for another, after finding something in his swing he said he’d been missing for three years. (More on that later.)

And Eli Whiteside, who allowed another passed ball, but stood firm at the plate as he received a perfect Aaron Rowand-Miguel Tejada relay and tagged out Kelly Johnson to keep the tying run from scoring in the eighth. (Full game account here.)

Whiteside also hit the snot out of a triple in the ninth (off J.J. Putz, no less), and man, I’ve stopped doubting Bruce Bochy’s contention from last season that Whiteside is faster than Buster Posey. Whiteside doesn’t just run well for a catcher. He motored around the bases.

“I’ve got some wheels once I get going,” Whiteside said, smiling. “It just takes me awhile to get going sometimes.”

Faster than Burrell, home to third?

“Oh, definitely,” he said, furrowing his brow.

No question about it: These past three weeks have probably been the most difficult for Whiteside as a Giant. He hears the whispers and the criticism. He knows that smart baseball people are watching him miss pitches and bounce throws, and wondering how the Giants can continue without acquiring a catcher. He’s almost as easygoing as Bumgarner, but in his clubhouse body language, he seems quite a bit edgier in recent days.

Publicly, on the record and off, Whiteside insists he isn’t hurt. But we’ve seen him catch for two seasons in a backup role, and he’d never exhibited some of the defensive deficiencies that we’ve seen over the last three weeks.

So what’s happening? Well, I just think he’s a player who has spent most of his career in a backup role – much of his minor league career, too – and there’s no underestimating the pounding your body takes when you catch every day. Especially when you’re not used to it.

So a confidence-boosting game is probably just what Whiteside needed. It’s just what the Giants needed, too.

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That’s because help isn’t around the corner. The Giants have looked everywhere outside the organization for catching help. CBS Sports today linked the Giants to the Texas Rangers, and the report got it half right. According to my sources, the Giants asked about Yorvit Torrealba, not Taylor Teagarden. But Texas wanted Santiago Casilla, and offered no relief on the $3.25 million Torrealba would make next season.

Isn’t that a good thing, I wondered, to have a competent catcher under contract for 2012 in case Buster Posey’s catastrophic ankle injury doesn’t allow him to resume his career at the position?

No, I was told firmly. Posey will catch again next season. That isn’t a question at all.

The Torrealba talks ended there, and there’s little to suggest they will pick up again.

But we’ll see what happens as the July 31 trading deadline nears and clubs begin to fall out of the race. I’m told that Pudge Rodriguez remains a legitimate target, if the Washington Nationals are sufficiently interested to return a phone call. As of this moment, anyone else — even an unsexy backup like the Yankees’ Francisco Cervelli — would cost the Giants someone like Dan Runzler or Zack Wheeler or worse.

So for the foreseeable future, the Giants need Whiteside and Chris Stewart to play with confidence, and keep the confidence of the staff.

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On a related note, Bruce Bochy acknowledged that he replaced Whiteside with Stewart at catcher in the ninth inning Tuesday in part because of Whiteside’s problems throwing to bases.

“I have all the confidence in both of them, but it’s fair to say Stew is more locked in with the throwing,” Bochy said.

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Believe me, it hasn’t gone unnoticed around Giantsland that the Florida Marlins are free-falling right now. After coughing up a lead in Game 2 and getting swept by Philly in a doubleheader Wednesday night, the stinking Fish have lost 14 of 15 to plummet from contention. Suddenly, one of the league’s more intriguing teams has fallen 10.5 games out of first place in the NL East. And Manager Edwin Rodriguez is on the hot seat.

Back on May 26, the Marlins were flying high. They departed San Francisco after claiming a three-game sweep and a piece of the Giants’ soul. You’ll need no reminder that one of Florida’s victories came on Scott Cousins’ takeout slide that ripped apart Buster Posey’s ankle and ended his season.

Since that series, the Marlins are 3-17. Cousins is on the disabled list with a back injury.

And the unofficial, off-the-record sentiment in Giants land?

Hey, karma’s a bitch.

–
It was a late addition to the notebook, so in case it doesn’t make it online…

Freddy Sanchez was examined by Dr. Gary Waslewski and received a second opinion on his right shoulder. Waslewski concurred with the Giants medical staff, so Sanchez will not undergo surgery. He’ll rest and rehab the shoulder for six weeks, then reevaluate whether surgery is needed or if he can try to play again this season.

–
Back to Burrell for a moment.

Opposing teams don’t exactly water down the infield to slow him down when he comes to town. When he gets triples, it means one of two things: The ball took a crazy, Happy Fun Ball bounce, or two outfielders are holding their craniums in pain.

In this case, it was the Happy Fun Ball. His drive kicked hard away from Willie Bloomquist and he made it to third base with his lungs burning like an unfiltered smag.

Bochy got on Burrell, telling him Darren Ford would’ve made it home.

“Yeah, he probably would’ve,” Burrell said. “Hey, that’s all I’ve got. Nice to be able to help, though. You know?”

Here’s the freaky part: When Burrell hit his last triple, on July 31, 2009, he was a member of the Tampa Bay Rays at Kansas City. He hit the ball to center field. And the center fielder for the Royals that day? None other than Willie Bloomquist.

Both triples happened in the fourth inning, too. And I think there was a lunar eclipse in Sagittarius both times, too.

Anyway, we told Burrell about the coincidences.

“Huh. Really,” he said. “So … don’t you guys have any serious questions to ask?”

Yes, Pat. We do. About Bumgarner.

And Burrell gave a thoughtful answer, which is in the game story.

“We rely on our speed – like Burrell’s – to do some things,” Bochy said, never cracking a smile.

–
Hall was pretty pumped up over his two-hit game, including one of the louder connections I’ve heard off the bat by a Giant this season. Of his double in the ninth inning (also off Putz), he said he “got a fastball and put a swing I hadn’t put on a ball in a long time.”

There are a few Hall quotes in the game story about the changes that he and Hensley “Bam Bam” Meulens made in the cage. I’d expound, but this is already becoming a pretty long post. So I’ll save the hitting clinic for later.

I don’t know Hall very well, so I can’t tell you if he’s prone to hyperbole. But he seemed legitimately excited that he found something major, and that it could portend very, very good things in the months ahead.

For now, there’s no doubting it: That contact in the ninth inning was loud, indeed.

–
Another foul ball bounded within 10 feet of my seat in the press box tonight. It hit off the front facing of the section and ricocheted to the back of the box, where I picked it up.

I knew what I had to do next.

I autographed it (with “Thanks for believing”) and asked Hank “Hands” Schulman to do the same. Then I happily delivered the ball to Kruk and Kuip in their TV booth, with our compliments.

Me being gracious, I did not charge a nickel for my signature, as is my custom.

Andrew Baggarly

Andrew Baggarly has witnessed and documented the most eventful era in San Francisco Giants baseball history, having covered the team since 2004 for th​ree major media outlets including the San Jose Mercury News and the Oakland Tribune​. This will be his 20th season as a baseball writer.
​Baggarly is the author of the bestselling book, A Band of Misfits: Tales of the 2010 San Francisco Giants. A second title, Giant Splash, is due to be published by Triumph Books in April 2015.
Baggarly’s other notable life accomplishments include running as the Bratwurst in the Milwaukee Sausage Race and becoming a three-time Jeopardy! champion.

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If hall found something he was missing the last 3 years this could be cody ross all over again. He has already done as much as tejada has and this was his first start as a giant! Brian sabean at it again! A’s suck!

http://www.andresthegiant.com boogbite

Or Burrell all over again?

Got home from my softball game just in time to see the Rowand-Tejada-Whiteside relay play. Knocked my socks off, sweep ‘em tomorrow Voglies!

Baggs4Prez

Baggs – hall had a 2 hit game, nonetheless excellent reporting!

uncle joe mccarthy

dude…get your own nick

any word if the roof will be open again tomorrow?

with hall’s pronouncement, i hope that ends the buzz from the peanut gallery of dumping bam bam

giants really wanted to get back torri? i love the guy, but the trade that sent him to seattle, left him with a bitter taste in his mouth, as he always believed that he could be the starting backstop for the org…and was never given a shot

giants are gonna have a hard time getting a catcher, unless they dont mind getting taken to the cleaners

miggs cannot play ss…its enough already…and it affects him at the plate

he should only play at third…when they slide pablo over to first to give huff a break or pablo needs a straight day off

any word when fontenot restarts rehab?

all kroon fans…our hero got pummeled tointe…had absolutely no control of anything….really weird, as he was lights out for the past month

good game by the giants….snakes have no pen….dodgers are totally imploding…all is right with the world

oh…and vancouverians can learn from san franciscans how to deal with a terrible defeat…..of course, with their beady little eyes and flappy heads…i dont blame them for rioting

BaySean

Here’s to Bill Hall launching 35 jacks again this year! Great win for the MadBum-led G-Men. May as well sweep ‘em now. Time to separate.

http://tehehehe scott in marin

you mean the Giants had a shot at getting a catcher who can hit .270 over the remainder of the year with good defense for a Gas Can Reliever (and a small 3.25MM contract for next year- to put in perspective, half of what they paid useless Miguel Tejada for this year) and they didn’t do it?

what idiots.

Mavo

So three of the guys who the fans rip on here REGULARLY … Rowand, Tejada and Whiteside … had hands in this nice win tonight! Shows you what the average fan knows about lineups.

And while Rowand made a nice play on the throw to the plate, Miggy threw an absolute seed on a line for a strike at home where Whiteside put the tag on the DBacks runner. Notice how the DBacks runner did NOT pull a Cousins and try to blow up Whiteside … I guess cheap shot artists only do that when a catcher has his head turned away from him!

Great call on the Marlins bad turn of fortune right after they swept the Giants and Cousins pulled his BS stunt!! I say “What goes around … COMES around!”

Mavo

@Scott in Marin .. Yeah, they are such idiots that they are in first place with the 4th best record in baseball!! Get a CLUE and give them some credit that they just might know a bit more about baseball than you do!!

GiantsAmongMen

The Gods are clearly unhappy with what happened in May.

Suck on it Marlins…penance, yes…pennants, no.

fabiani1233

The idea that there is no doubt that Posey will be the starting catcher next season is absurd. His injury is the type that would very likely prevent him from physically doing so.
What of this Hector Sanchez? Could he be the future at that position?

I’m sure if Pudge was honest, he would say he would love to play for the Giants this season. He’s a perfect fit, for good and bad reasons. He’s old and his hitting skills have dimished substantially but he’s still very capable of playing the position like it should and he’s been a part of a championship team before and has risin to the occasion many times.

Mavo

@uncle joe – yeah… sad to see Kroon get lit up tonight like that! We ALL were rooting for the guy to make a comeback a la Vogelsong! But it appears the only pitching resurrection this year is going to be Vogie! I am sure Kroon only decided to stay with Fresno due to lack of interest by any other ML teams. Sad to see this as it would have been a heck of a story for him to come up to the Show again under Bochy!

Mavo

Granted the catching has not been stellar since Posey was lost … but the pitching staff continues to roll and they have rebounded nicely from all these serious injuries! There is NO rush to panic and overpay for catching now! Sabes is biding his time til next month when some teams will be in “salary dump” mode! Then if it makes sense he’ll make a move.

Nightcrawler

Something needs to be done with the catcher position. There is no way we can give up a top prospect, but I think Runzler should be expendable for the right guy. I am still hoping Doumit comes back and shows he is healthy before the deadline.

If not a trade, it looks like Sabean is seeing what Hector Sanchez might be able to offer as a mid season call up. A switch hitting catcher that flew through the ranks out of nowhere? Sounds familiar to me.

Miguel Tejada made some horrible plays today (not counting the relay) and is looking lost at the plate. Overall we are better off with Crawford everyday. When we play this many close games, defense is very important.

I am very interested for this seasons trade deadline. We will know more about the 2b situation, where are catching is at and hopefully have a little more separation between the everyday line up and the reserves.

K&J

Casilla = 1.95 ERA in 2010

Casilla = 1.17 ERA in 2011

Scott, do you have the faintest idea what the term”Gas Can Reliever” means?

jerrys

Baggs!
I nearly fired an angry post at you when I saw how you described the whole Cuz-Posey incident as a “slide.”

Now you’ve forced me to kick that rotting horse carcass one more time. But at least I’ve cooled down. You’re the best writer on the beat and I’d prefer to love ya than not.

But damn it! That was not a slide!

Thanks, Baggs. You really are doing a stellar job.

GiantsAmongMen

I agree Jerrys. Talk about using a term loosely. Unless, of course, “slide” is synonymous with high-speed, bulldoze ambush. Maybe that’s how Baggs meant it.

http://cctimes Judge Wapner

Mavo-

One good game (or, in whiteside’s case, one good hit) does NOT absolve Tejada, Whiteside and even Rowand for their utter lack of competence as everyday players for a contending team in MLB..

Whiteside had ANOTHER passed ball tonight; that is just unacceptable. I love the guy, but he’s not competent as a major league catcher. Perhaps he’s hurt.. or just worn down. But the guy is not performing to even a minimum standard, and he must be replaced.

Casilla is too much to trade for Yorvit; but I’d trade Ramon Ramirez or Dan Runzler to get him. You need to give something to get something.. and Yorvit would give them a legitimate catcher who can hit, throw and field his position at LEAST as well as half the starting catchers in the league.

Bottom line: The Giants need help at catcher. They don’t need to trade for a 39 year old version of Pudge; the guy’s hitting .200, and his age makes his viability as an every-day catcher even less than his lack of offense does.

Sabes should call the Rangers and see who else they’ll take for Yorvit. I’ll bet they’d take Ramirez or Runzler.. and the Giants should be happy to trade them for a real option at catcher.

ECJ

Mavo

@Judge Wapner – I agree Whiteside has not looked good behind the plate so far. Maybe he is hurting and they are hiding it.. but I suspect it is the fatigue of having to catch everyday after being a backup so long. If I was Bochy I’d start alternating the two C’s to keep them both fresh.

But I would NOT give up one of our pitchers to get a catcher now.. especially NOT Ramirez! They are doing just fine now and there is no need to panic and overpay. Maybe in July when teams start selling is the time to make a move. But not now… they are still in first and are not desperate!

And as far as Tejada … he was looking much better at the plate lately. I think with less playing time he might do better as he’ll be fresher out there. And that throw he made tonight was a ROPE right on the money! Give the guy his due … even if it was only one game!

Mavo

Gotta love the way Bill Hall hit the ball tonight! That 2B to center was CRUSHED! What a find he would be if he does get his stroke back for the remainder of the season! He does not have the glove of Freddy .. and will not hit for the average, but if he is back to his previous hitting form he’ll hit with a lot more power and drive in runs! He could be the 2011 version of Cody Ross or Pat Burrell!

Mavo

One thing I thought was strange was why Hall did not slide on that DP tonight! In the old days if you did not get down you’d have a baseball in the forehead! In fact I remember vividly at Giants vs Dodgers game televised from LA back in 1964 or 1965 .. Jim Ray Hart was coming into 2B and did not slide … Maury Wills came across the bag and DRILLED Jim Ray right in the forehead! The ball bounced all the way into medium RF! Hall being a middle infielder has to know he took his life in his hands with that stunt tonight!

J.M.

I was going to say Casilla for Torrealba was a no-brainer. But Yorvit’s stats this year are terrible, and his success the last two years might be helped by some good luck – he’s had two straight years of uncharacteristically high BABIPs. Then again, Casilla’s velocity is way down from last year – by 3mph. Maybe he picks up a couple MPH as the season progresses (he’s done it before) but it’s also possible that he goes back to being the inconsistent AAAA reliever that he was before last year. Maybe his curve will be a difference maker.

Dorky

I owe you a nickel!

Woj

Marlins 1-14 in last 15 games = a bit of justice.
However, Scott Cousins receiving his drill ball sandwich from any Giants pitcher in the upcoming Miami series = priceless. C’mon Scott you goon – start getting some worthless hits so you stay on Marlins roster long enough to can receive some payback.

luke mcwarmsky

It may be fortuitous that the dbacks decided to trade harsh last year…with him on this years team they might be in first right now.

Its probalbly going to be a platoon situation at ss and the outfield shirholtz/ burrell for a while.

It would be nice to get another major league short stop and a catcher. I would definately give up castilla for torrealba. Relief pitching is one of the giant’s strenghts on the team and in the farm.

luke mcwarmsky

Haren not harsh…damn autocorrect

http://tehehehe scott in marin

Mavo- I’ll be short and to the point. Yes, they are idiots for not doing the Torrealba deal. The teams record has nothing to do with it, you can have a great team and still be stupid for passing up on a great deal. All Texas is asking is for us to pay his salary, and give him a reliever. Most or any other teams would want our blue-chip prospects for a catcher, knowing that we are desperate. You’re telling me that you wouldn’t do a deal to replace Whiteside, who cannot hit nor catch nor throw out runners, with a guy who hits .270, plus defense and a good arm? other teams want prospects like Wheeler (projected as a #3 starter) for lesser catchers. ok man….. whatever you say, then.

uncle joe mccarthy

luke

if the rangers had taken on some of torrie’s salary…the giants would have made the deal…i just dont know how happy he would have been returning here

http://tehehehe scott in marin

oh, and I am perfectly aware what a gas can reliever is. And that is what Casilla has been his entire career until the last 1/3 of last year and the what, 10 total IP this season?

You can go ahead and take the microsplits of a very small sample size, while I will look at his career numbers. And over his career, he has not been good.

You might want to take into account that he was throwing 98mph last year, and is only throwing 91 this year.

If you’re going to switch catchers, better to do it in June than in late July. This is a great deal for Yorvit, and if they pass it up, they’ll pay out the nose come the deadline.

K&J

Casilla’s been hurt. He’s thrown 10 innings this year. When he starts pitching like Merkin Valdez or Alex Hinshaw, then toss around the gas can comments. His splits last year are not that diverse. Yes, Casilla (along with a few others) picked up his performance in August & September.

BTW, I like Yorvit. I think he’d be a good addition. But I’m not going to get all excited while other teams think they have the advantage.

Our position improves as we approach the deadline. We’re still going to have the pitching.

Mavo

@scott … I’ll trust in the wisdom of Sabean and his staff over you assessment of the situation. They have so much more information than any of us and usually Sabean is pretty good at trade deadline deals in the past. You seem to think Torrealba would be the 2nd coming of Johnny Bench or something! I don’t share that high of an opinion of him!

BEAR

Hey, karma’s a bitch.

Amen.

hilarie

So Tejada’s previously gaudy stats vs. Saunders — the reason he started over Crawford — are, as they say, quickly regressing towards the mean. His mean. He is now 0 for his last seven abs. That 6-15 with two hrs stands revealed to be what any major league manager should have known it to be: luck. Miggy is old and bad and vs. any pitcher the odds of a weak ground ball are high and getting higher. Starting him was folly.

Nice play though.

Erik

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Pologrounds

Sabes is running the club – I think he know’s a litte about Baseball !

the idiot

“Casillas a gas can reliever !” Wow,,,Scott,,its ok if you use my name from now on

Poopoosah

I was sad to see Yorvit leave the organization a few years ago. I always liked him and hope he comes back and helps the team make it to the playoffs again.

giantsfan

Ok…I’ll bite..what is a “gas can reliever”?

totalfan62

Another good win last night! Nice to see us tack on the two additional runs in the 9th and give Wilson a cushion. Puts us in good position for the sweep, Vogey vs. Kennedy.

He is their ace, so tonight will be a battle, but Vogey has been strong. Two more quality starts (14 1/3 innings) and he qualifies for leading the league in ERA.

BTW, I can’t resist using Vogey, even though I love The Wisdom Cow generated nickname “The Song”.

I’m also surprised and a bit disappointed that we didn’t pull the trigger on Casilla for Torrealba, given the deal that was apparently on the table. Casilla is not a “gas can”, but he will put up some shaky appearances and more important we are very deep in the bullpen.

I’d rather trade Casilla than Ramirez at this point, and I do NOT think we should trade Runzler. Great arm, could be a starter in the next year or two.

Our “total team effort” continues to be successful, and that’s how we can win the division. We have appx 30 guys to fill the 25-man roster, and Bochy has proven that he is adept at picking the right lineup each day.

GO GIANTS!!

OMT

Judge, Ramirez trade? Really

28 games, 21 hits, 23 k, 10 bb, 5 er, 1.12whip, 1.63 era, 2-0 w-l

Uh…. no. Please, no!

Hall is our next Uribe, but better?

totalfan62

@ giants fan (appx #37):

“Gas can reliever” comes from the old announcer line…”and (fill in the blank) comes into the game in relief, and pours a little gas on the fire!”

Foothills Ryan

Scott, maybe a pinch of hyperbole, but I’ve got you’re back.

Given that this is a bona fide seller’s market on catchers, dealing from an area of strength (bullpen arms) for a primary catcher this year and, god willing, back up catcher next year ain’t all that bad. I’d think the value Torrealba adds is greater than the value Rodriguez would add given the cost and potential returns. And both of their value in the Win column should exceed Whiteside’s.

But nobody’s paying me to evaluate catcher’s so I’ll let the pros do the work.

Keep in mind, you’ve got Barry Zito scratching at the door to get back in and you’ve got an arm like Kroon (try to ignore one bad outing) that could take Casilla’s place and actually do a better job in those 6th/7th inning appearances. If they want Runzler, it’d be selling low, but they can have him.

http://3renfrews@comcast.net robin

What about the kid in the minors ?
He was in San Jose
Has he been promoted to Fresno
How has he done last two weeks/

Dave

I’d trade Runzler before Casilla. Runzler is way too dependent on his fastball which is why he gets raked hard.

Joemets86

Casilla for Torrealba plus picking up his $3.25MM salary for next year. Unless the Giants see a better option closer to the deadline, I would pull the trigger on that one. You get a legitimate major league catcher and lose a minor cog in your bullpen. Even solves the Zito issue.

jason

i still find it funny…last year huff n pat were loosening the clubhouse with humor. now they just dont seem to care. upset that younger players are better?

Giants Fan in China

Giants are now the only team in the NL West with a winning record within the division.

Grouchy Bear

I’m wondering if this Torrealba talk isn’t pure myth. Does anyone else wonder why the Rangers would want to dispose of him when the only other vet catcher on the team, Napoli, is out with a strained oblique? There are a total of 12 major league catchers on the DL at the moment. Competent veterans are simply not dealt. I’m thinking that Baggs (or his source) have it wrong (for once) and the Rangers want to deal Teagarden, a AAAA player.

Rick Raff

I would not trade any of our pitching for Yorvit… there will be better deals ahead…

Sabs, “There is no love lost for Scott Cousins, and there shouldn’t be.” The Marlins are 3-17 and Cousins is on the DL since he injured Buster Posey… Baseball Karma…

SakUp

Hum Baby – W’s are good, Series W’s are Great, and a Sweep would be well….Sweepness! FTR – give Whitey a break, he does a great job with the staff and will improve…..sometimes it’s more than Talent. Whitey is a Gamer!!! Tejeda, well not much to say, except SS is not his role. Would think he is more fit to get time at 3rd or 1st (should be an easy move for him) when 1/2 panda and Huff need a day/match ups, and use Burris when Crawford needs a day/match ups

Lyle

I’d trade Casilla for Torrealba in a New York minute. Runzler, even better. And I cannot believe the $3.25m salary would be the obstacle to a trade like that.

There’s no way to be certain Posey can play at all next year, much less as a full-time catcher. Getting Torrealba would simply be purchasing some insurance – and at a good price. I hope Hector Sanchez is our catcher in 2013, but we’ve got to upgrade between now and then.

Judy

Sorry, but as a writer you should know that it’s, My being gracious…..not me…

Nuschler

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

The Wisdom Cow

If that was accurate, Casilla for Torreabla is a good deal. The money on next year is nothing compared to Tejada. But really, he won’t be moveable next year? I think pretty highly of Casilla, but I guess Sabean thinks higher. The extra year and money is nothing compared to the insurance Yorvit would bring.

Glad to read that Whiteside is confident, but I don’t think the pitchers throwing to him are if someone is on base. Too many SBs and passed balls (several “wild pitches” because he failed to block with proper form). I was ired by the PR the other day on his “perfect” throw to gun down a runner. It was definitely on target, but as the play was a strike swinging on a hit and run, he had much more time than any SB attempt.

After just looking through Yorvit’s stat page, I am not sure I believe the report. Casilla may be overpaying, but not by much. It’s a position of need throughout the league, and they would be paying from their surplus. There must be more to this. Keep digging, Baggs.

ExPFCWintergreen

Whiteside and Stewart may be the catchers the Giants are going with, but it wouldn’t hurt in my opinion to use Stewart more often. I would like to see a true platooning – two games on, two games off.

I am not in favor of firing “Bam Bam,” but would love to see Bonds join the staff as an additional hitting instructor. Maybe if he can clear the federal courts the Giants would want to do this. I believe that Bonds could be helpful and that it would show class on the part of the Giants to bring him on in a support role.

ScottA

If I were the GIants’ GM, I’d make that Torrealba/Casilla trade. I think the Giants need more help behind the plate than most fans are willing to admit, and losing Casilla out of an (over?)stocked bullpen is a small price to pay.

If Whiteside is hurt Baggs & that is hurting his defense as you say & being used as an exscuse not by him, but by you & many others, then how did he magaically become an unhurt looking fast runner on that triple who then happily slid head first & popped up with no problem? You can’t have it both ways. I do love his heart though & you can’t help but root for the guy!

The Wisdom Cow

Just to add to my thought (and Grouchy Bear’s) that something is hinky about the Torreabla rumor –

What did the Giants give up for Javier Lopez last year? for less season? Bowker and Joe Martinez. And the Giants wouldn’t pull the trigger on Torreabla for Casilla?

The Wisdom Cow

I could not agree more with Wintergreen. Do a true platoon with Stewart and Whiteside while they hold the position.

If anything, play Stewart a bit more to allow Eli to build his strength, going 3 games to 2. Eli will only get much worse if he burns out, and while I hate his blocking technique while (presumably) tired, anyone playing tired is more susceptible to injury, so I guess I’ll take the worse pass ball rate than another C on the DL and even less leverage in any trade proposal.

FILTHpig

Ah, another round of freshly squozen Diamondback… delicious! I think I’ll have another.

Also, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance, WTH is “an unfiltered smag”???

Sacnick

Referencing a past post by baggs, the giants are in NO HURRY to acquire a catcher. But unless Whiteside and/or Stewart shows something, Sabean will figure it out.

Secondly, how many unique lineups/batting orders has (have?) Bochy written this season?

Dinero

NO way in hell I would trade Runzler for a rental catcher. Reminds me too much of the Liriano/Nathan for Pierzynski deal. Next year, or maybe the year after, our rental catcher would be gone, and Runzler would probably be throwing near no-hitters in Texas. Screw that, I’ll stick with the Whitey/Stewart platoon. Especially as long as we are winning games.

ScottA

Mavo (#31), I do not think Torrealba is the second coming, but I do think he would be an improvement over Whiteside. I think that defensively and offensively he would be an upgrade. And trading one pitcher who’s spent most of the season on the D.L. while we have one of the best bullpens in baseball is a very, very small price to pay. We would not have to give up any of our vaunted prospects. And we’d still have Hector Sanchez as a (slim!) chance to be a backup if something doesn’t work out.

slash78

Maybe Sabean should ask the Rays about john jaso, pride of mckinleyville high school (for you who don’t know, mckinleyville is here in the nether regions of NorCal).

BDA

javier lopez for bowker/martinez made great sense as bowker/martinez were non-contributers when they were traded. since casilla has come back up from dl he has been lights out and used quite a bit – trading him would be stewpid in my opinion.

Mike Souza

Very confused as to why they would not trade Casilla for Torreabla in a second jjust because the Rangers would not pick up his salary. So frustrating to watch them pinch pennies sometimes & then recklessly spend money on players who are old & that would never receive the types of money Sabean & the team gives out other times.

ScottA

Hey, I’m desperate for Posey to come back and catch. I think he makes the pitching staff better, he was born to play the position, and there’s no doubt that in less than one year he has become one of the elite catchers in the game.

But Giants fans — and, apparently, the Giants themselves! — need to face reality that Posey may not ever be able to play catcher again. What people don’t seem to understand is that TORN LIGAMENTS DON’T HEAL and his ankle is going to be weakened for the rest of his life. He is risking further injury playing the extremely physical catcher position.

I say the Giants should trade for Torrealba or someone else to join the team permanently… NOT a “rent-a-player”. If Posey comes back ready to catch, then we have a much better backup than Whiteside. If Posey can only play 1B, then I say we trade Belt for a power hitter, keep Torrealba (or whoever) as the starting catcher and Whiteside as the backup (the position HE was born to play) and hope that Hector Sanchez develops.

BDA

since whiteside/stewart took over as catchers the giants are what? 12-8? that is .600 if this team plays .600 they win 97 games, that is plenty to beat the dbacks. PLEASE oh PLEASE don’t trade the pitchers.

Expat

Platoon Whiteside and Stewart, don’t trade Casilla. Pitching is the reason this team is in first place. Jacking with it would be foolish.

There are probably layers to this story we are not privy to anyways. (Maybe they took a straw poll and the staff can’t stand Torrealba.)

Peter

Kind of surprised by the Torrealba talk. Sabean was never a Torrealba fan.

Gas Can Reliever: Relievers come in to put out “the fire”. Get it?

The Wisdom Cow

BDA, you missed my point, which admittedly was not spelled out so well.

Who is more valuable? Casilla now or Lopez last year? I’d say Lopez beyond question, and we got him for 2 non-contributors. Someone more valuable in the bullpen was acquired for very little, and yet for Casilla the Giants could land Torreabla, a very competent starting catcher? I seriously doubt the report the more I think about it.

Moreover, I am kinda shocked people are against the trade. Catchers wear down over the season. Whiteside is going to get worse over time, not better. I can live with Stewart, but I’d give up a bullpen arm for a solid upgrade in a heartbeat.

—————————————

An extra blurb in MLBTR noted the Giants have had scouts out looking at other teams’ AAA catchers. That is the route I suspected they would go all along. Look for a C ready to come up at a level which would be an upgrade in SF. The cost there will still be significant – Casilla value, though possibly in terms of prospects, or as part of a bigger deal swapping multiple players, maybe even some big leaguers.

pacman68

Sabean hates Torrealba and will never do the deal. I would do that deal in a minute. Timmy takes a lot of time getting used to new pitchers.

BDA

WC – that makes more sense now, thanks. but lopez was another of those “dumb” pirate trades that they seem to make with the giants. i don’t think good relievers are that easy to get – casilla has been very good for the last year, i think he is an important cog – hell i think the whole 25 man roster is an important cog to the teams success but MOO (my opinion only)

The Wisdom Cow

ScottA, so much depends on information we do not have regarding Posey’s ligaments. Mainly, which ones are injured?

Thought they do not heal, they do not cause pain or discomfort, either. The majority of the outside of my right foot is no longer connected after a severe sprain (got the cast I was in signed by Ernest Riles before a game – but that’s another story). The foot simply cannot move in certain ways compared to my left foot, but it really only prevents me from being able to jump to my left IF I did not use my left side nor any part of my right (no leg) other than the outside of my foot.

I think it would take a truly freakish injury for ligament damage to be so severe all the way around an ankle to prevent Buster from being able to catch. He may come back a step slower (at worst, IMO), but he’ll come back a catcher.

Lefty

Well, I don’t really believe in karma, but I can’t really say I’m weeping for the Marlins’ recent “slide” (pun intended). It’s pretty fun to go on their MLB page and see all the gnashing of teeth. Every now and then a Giants’ fan pops in and says something about “karma,” and the Marlins’ fans (and there don’t seem to be that many, actually) go nuts. My favorite today was when one said that the Giants were back to being “failures” after the Posey injury. Ha ha.

Noted that the Giants promoted closer Heath Hembree from San Jose to Richmond yesterday. That guy’s supposed to be a stud; scouts compare him to Kimbrel on the Braves. Looks like the Giants are quietly working on their bullpen strength in the system. I wouldn’t be surprised to see at least one trade involving a reliever. That’s the one area where we really do seem to have some depth. Young outfielders, too, I guess, but I suppose everyone has those.

Monterey

Sabean is waiting on the Torrealba deal, not b/c he’s a cheapskate (although that’s part of fit), he’s waiting b/c–

–he doesn’t want to give up a valuable pitcher

– the Gs already have a serviceable alternative in place– Whiteside/Stewart. They are winning with these guys catching!

Sabean is probably also concerned that bringing in a different catcher would disrupt the pitching staff who already know Whitey & Stew.

The Giants will wait for just the right deal & to see if the catching situation improves. If it’s just a matter of fatigue & nervousness with Whitey, there’s no reason to rush into an unfavorable deal.

Having Whitey & Stew catching is NOT going to prevent the Giants from winning their division. I think the Giants know that a catching upgrade will be just that– an UPGRADE. It won’t be a game changer.

They’re going to win the division regardless of who’s catching.

Lefty

I follow Marc Kroon on Twitter and saw that he apparently had quite a rough outing for the Grizz yesterday. But he also Tweeted thanks to “Timmy” for his text and encouraging words–and wished him a happy birthday, so he definitely meant Lincecum.

Gotta say I think it’s super-cool that a star like Timmy would take the time to text a Triple-A closer who had a bad day–and on his own birthday. Especially when he himself has been struggling. Good kid.

Predictor

Y’all better hope Posey can catch for at least one more year, because if he can only play first base that would move the untradeable $11 million Huff to left field and leave Belt as the odd man out.

My God, then we’d have to put up with a season of whiners whining about how Sabean shouldn’t have given Huff that second year on his deal and how Bochy is shafting Belt.

Get well soon, Buster! Please. For the sake of this blog!

Giant PITA

I’m in the ScottA and WisCow camp. I’d pull the trigger on Casilla for Torrealba in a New York minute.

As I think Souza and Cow said, there has to be more to this rumor than just the $3.25M on Torrealba’s contract for 2010 being the sticking point. That’s chump change compared to what Sabean donates to the retirement funds of over the hill, non-productive twilight guys all the time.

Giant PITA

2010 = 2012 in previous post

The Wisdom Cow

Monterey, I agree on everything but the premise of the Torreabla deal in the first place. That deal they would do. I can’t believe it existed. If the price of Torreabla is a Casilla-like reliever, too many teams have need at C for a deal to not go down ASAP. A three way deal would be easy for most teams to manage, sending prospects to another team for a Casilla-like reliever to send to Texas.

The Giants do not need to panic. They will win the West, but they need an upgrade by the playoffs.

Sledge

@FILTHpig

Baggs is revealing a bit of misspent youth- “smag” slang for cigarette

Nate’sFanMom

The Bochy strikes again.

Wow.

Keep’n It Real

Too early to make a trade. (premature e-trade-ulation?)

The Giants are winning and there is still time to evaluate what they have on the roster, before they go shopping for the playoffs run.

It’s like the typical Christmas shopping season right now. You pay full price (or even overpay), when it’s a given that the usual discounts are right around the corner. You are better off waiting for the discounts to kick in.

BDA

heres my take on the giants team. the team is like lincecum, a complicated blend of movement and mentality that = a winning combination. you mess with a part of lincecum mechanical/mental you get bad-timmy. whay mess with the giants chee? all the parts are greater than the whole – you mess with one part, maybe it all falls down. in my book torrealba casilla at this stage

BDA

or maybe all the wholes is greater than the part?

Johnfromnj

Last year Sabean picked up the NLCS MVP on August 22

BDA

and i meant torrelaba not equal to casilla – the boss is on the prowl

DesertGiantFan

Great recap Baggs. My post #102 from last night came true. Row to Miggy to Whitey. I just didn’t know it was going to be a perfectly executed relay. Beautiful.

BDA

jersey john is right patience

SealTeam6

So who don’t you like on the Giants ?,, and would like to see gone?

The Wisdom Cow

I completely respect the idea that Torreabla may not be a good fit (a certain AJ comes to mind), but I do think, especially with the lack of healthy catchers in the league, Casilla’s objective value is considerably less, league wide, than Torreabla. It’s the main reason I don’t think Baggs’ source had it right.

Johnfromnj

The expanded roster in September could be a big divisional advantage for the Giants if all the arms are healthy. I cannot remember a deeper Giants pen than this one. Ford will also be that great x-factor when needed.

Giant PITA

@ cow,

I completely agree with your evaluation of the Torrealba/Cassilla rumor. There simply has to be more to the story or the initial story was based on bad information. I hope to see a follow up on this from Baggs real soon.

Fit Panda

Given how pitching-centric the Giants are, it’s probable that Sabean is consulting with some of the top pitchers on the staff about potential catcher candidates, and maybe it’s possible that somebody or somebodies on the staff don’t like Torrealba and don’t want to work with him. There are other factors that go into building a team besides contract status and stats, you know.

Any catcher available for what the Giants can give up isn’t going to be a huge upgrade over what they have now. It’s certainly not going to have the same impact as transitioning from Molina to Posey did last year. And seeing how mental Timmy is about adjusting to new catchers, maybe the Giants feel that the Torrealba scenario isn’t favorable enough to warrant the growing pains.

Peter

Perhaps this is just Sabean’s way of tweaking Torrealba yet again, i.e. even though were desperate, a low leverage reliever and 3.25mil is too much for you.

Our Team

Yes, Karma is a bitch. How many plays at the plate have we seen since Cousins’ overly-aggressive play where the opponent slid when the plate was available instead of barrelling recklessly into the catcher? Many. Last night was just the latest example.

Our Team

Is this Giants’ Bullpen developing into one of the best of all-time? THE BEST of all-time, assuming they continue like this? Whose was better?

Johnfromnj

The fact that Sabean got Bill Hall the instant after Freddy went down demonstrates to me just how proactive he is and also what a great job the Giants scouts do in having up-to-date recommendations right there on stand-by when he needs them.

It’s clear to me that Sabean has likely been just as proactive in his quest to find a catcher, but will not make the move until the right deal presents itself. For me, the right deal does not include trading any legit prospects or current bullpen arms for an interim catcher upgrade. I am certain Sabean will get his catcher once he finds that right deal. He may even give H. Sanchez a major league look if one of our current two catchers hits the 15 day DL sometime before the All-Star break.

If our minor league bullpen arms prove to be so superlative that he thinks he can move Casilla and/or Mota without breaking up the current bullpen success rate, he may well do so. Just remember that for the bulk of Sabean’s 15 vears as GM it was bullpen arms that he could never have enough of, seemingly trading for one at every deadline.

ScottA

Thanks, Wisdom Cow (#73), you make some really good points. And as others have stated, we obviously don’t have access to the detailed medical information that the Giants have. My concerns about Posey’s ligaments are hopefully unfounded!

However, I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that three of Posey’s ligaments are strained or torn and that they are all around the ankle. If true, that is really, really bad. Two pins are in place (the surgery he had a few days after the accident) to hold the ligaments in place.

My wife, a physical therapist who deals with sports injuries all the time, winced when she heard that. She has said repeatedly, “I doubt he’ll ever play catcher again.”

Having stated my concern about Posey’s longterm health… I do agree with everyone here who has said that the Giants shouldn’t panic. Amen! Whiteside and Stewart are holding the fort down and aren’t TERRIBLE. (But they really aren’t very good, either!) But I think if the opportunity arrises for them to get a better catcher for a reasonable “price” that doesn’t clean out the farm system, they should jump on it.

Our Team

Tejada made a nice relay throw to nail the runner at the plate but he also missed getting an out on another play at first earlier that Crawford would have made.

ReadytoHangMyself

@Mike S. #65, I sure hope there’s more to the story than being told right now. That 3.25 looks like chump change to many of Sabean’s bad signings (latest being Tenada).

The Wisdom Cow

The funniest thing I have realized yet this season is that Whiteside and Stewart are not terrible.

They can thank Tejada and Huff. For the first 1/4 of the season, those two set the standard for terrible. Had they not been so bad, setting the bar so low, perhaps people would think differently of the catcher situation?

Suspicious

Tejada did make a nice throw, but his uniform was slightly askew.

Sloppy sloppy.

stixwiz

Lefty noted Heath Hembree’s promotion to the Flying Squirrels in the Eastern League. Giants’ Richmond AA team is loaded with capable relievers. The other day i checked out some stats for the four i figure to be the best:
-Osiris Matos: 2.48 ERA; 31 hits in 36.1 IP; 5BB; 27K; 0.99 WHIP
-Dan Otero: 1.54 ERA; 32 hits in 35 IP; 3BB; 37K; 1.00 WHIP
-Ronnie Ray: 0.95 ERA; 20 hits in 28.1 IP; 5BB; 19K; 0.88 WHIP
-David Quinoski: 2.10 ERA; 18 hits in 25.2 IP; 3BB; 17K; 0.82 WHIP
With Hembree joining Richmond they are rich enough in quality relievers that the Giants could readily spare a pair of them for Torrealba. Matos has already had two callups to SF, so he’s ML experienced. Give Texas a choice of one of the other three and add either Whitey or Stewart for shtts n’ giggles.

Suspicious

Someone check on Posey. Make sure he is not in a total funk and drinking heavily.

Or worse, just watching TV soap operas all day long.

Suspicious

When Posey’s on the mend
and Freddy’s shoulder can not bend
Here is some advice you can depend
on…

Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…

And…always look on the Whiteside of life…
Always look on the Whiteside of life…

If life seems jolly rotten
There’s something you’ve forgotten
And that’s to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you’re feeling in the dumps
Don’t be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle – that’s the thing.

And…always look on the Whiteside of life…
Always look on the Whiteside of life…

Every time the Fish lose, I like the think that Buster’s ankle gets just that much better, that much faster.

Mavo

All this moaning about the Giants catching is amusing me! Sure Whiteside has not looked like Buster … but who does? And Torrealba would NOT be that significant an upgrade … especially if he played every day! He is only a .250 lifetime hitter with not much more power than Whiteside people and is NOT even that much better defensively than Whiteside … and Stewart is BETTER defensively! When you add in the adjustment period to learn our pitching staff … which nobody on here seems to notice … it is a NO DEAL … in fact it is DOA!! No way Sabes gives up ANY arm for Torrealba. If Sabean really valued Torrealba he would have signed him last year when he was a FA. I remember when NOBODY questioned Sabean dealing a few “expendable” arms for a catcher back in 2003… REMEMBER that doozy? We lost Joe Nathan AND Francisco Liriano for Pierzynsky!! How quick fans forget!! I think Runzler could very well be the next Joe Nathan or an effective starter if they continue to convert him. You just don’t give up on live young arms that good … pitching is too valuable and prone to injury! Want an example of how fast a pitching staff can go from “loaded” to “busted down” look right across the Bay to the A’s! As always I am amazed that most fans on here, even experienced ones who have watched baseball for years, just don’t get it … PITCHING IS THE KEY TO WINNING BASEBALL!! And the 2011 Giants are the prime example of just how true that wisdom is!!

Mike Souza

@Mavo, Torrealba is no Posey, you are right, but please don’t act as if he would not be a huge upgrade over the current catchers.

10dollabeerz

Mavo, we all know that pitching is the key to the Giants success. That is the reason that they need to upgrade at catcher. Whiteside again and again shows his inability to block balls in the dirt and has allowed a few ugly passed balls that didn’t even touch the dirt. This effects the pitchers negatively.

Their (Whiteside and Stewart) offense is so abysmal that it takes the Giants out of many scoring opportunities, which, as poor as their offense is already, they can’t afford. With the catcher hitting 8th, it is basically as if the Giants have two automatic outs in a row.

Upgrading the catcher position will do more to aid the Giants pitching than it would effect it negatively, in my opinion.

10dollabeerz

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention Whiteside’s inability to throw out baserunners attempting to steal. The Giants can’t afford to give up 90 feet so easily with the low scoring offense they have.

Mike Souza

@Mavo, What does Sabean’s bad trade with the Twins years ago have to do with anything? Is Sabean supposed to be scared to pull the trigger because of that? What is your point? I have 100% faith when it comes to Sabean making trades. Minus the Minnesota deal he is a master at fleecing teams in trades or at worst getting equal value back.

Mavo

Sorry guys I DO NOT share your sense of urgency regarding our catching situation! They are STILL winning and Whiteside had a good offensive game last night after getting some time off. If Bochy keeps them both fresher … I think this team CAN win with these two catchers. And Torrealba would NOT be a big upgrade!

Channelclemente

First gripe, lineup roulette. Projecting a lineup for the fun of it, but actually thinking you have anything constructive or critical to say about Bochy’s decisions is moronic. After all the ignorant BS critcizing Bochy’s lineup last night without looking at their individual histories against Saunders, are the players of lineup Roulette about ready to start learning to speak Russian to get into a game that really suits their skill level. Bochy has forgotten more this week than the bunch of you combined ever knew.

Second gripe, anyone who would hand this staff over to Torrealba, just isn’t right in the head. Why did he leave his previous home, he can’t handle pitchers worth a damn. They got rid of Bengie’s trainy, Matt Treanor and got Torrealba. He’ and Redduxx Madducks are a good bit of the problems with the Rangers staff, currently. Beyond the guys here, Whiteside and Stewart, there aren’t three catchers in MLB qualified to manage this staff. Those guys are currently employed in St Louis, Philly, and Milwaukee. Mavo’s completely correct, pitching isn’t a fungible commodity, staff means catcher too. So give up the pointless rumination about ‘who SAbean should get’ and discuss the merits of players at the position, with handling a finely tuned staff as first priority.

Mike Souza

@Mavo, If Whiteside & Stewart are the platoon/starters there will be no playoffs. Why wait for the GIANTS to go on a tailspin so the price for a catcher can go up even more? And if you don’t think Torrealba is a big upgrade I don’t know what to tell you. Stewart & Whiteside would not be on any other team’s roster this season if the GIANTS were to get rid of them.

uncle joe mccarthy

We are so deep in pitching we should trade Cain or lincecum for like 3-4 bats

The Wisdom Cow

Mavo, “If Sabean really valued Torrealba he would have signed him last year when he was a FA.” Really? Not a strong argument. I don’t know how you can are pitching being so important without stressing the catcher position as well. Whiteside has been letting balls by at a worse rate than Bengie ever did, and his arm is suspect at gunning runners. Stewart has shown competence, behind the plate, but little more. If he was so much better than Eli, wouldn’t he get more starts? Wouldn’t the Giants not even be looking for another catcher?

The AJ deal has been noted plenty of times above as well. To try to use it as a reason to not trade a pitcher for a catcher, however, is illogical. You note Runzler as being a possible Nathan which, even if you are right about that nothing but gut belief idea, has little bearing on a Casilla for Torreabla rumor.

Mavo

@Channelclemente – thanks for that posting! A bit of sanity on here is refreshing! The way these guys complain about every lineup Bochy puts up and how they moan about getting a catcher … you’d think they lost 10 in a row and were sinking out of contention! lol

None of these guys has any idea what it takes to learn a pitching staff and call a good game! Why do you think the Giants waited until almost June 1st last year before calling up Buster? And even then he played mainly 1st until they dealt Bengie! It was BECAUSE Bochy AND Sabean realize how delicate a balance it is with the catchers and pitchers! These guys JUST look at the back of the baseball cards and merely do some simple math most the time… Their simple logic goes somewhat like this: Gee, a catcher that hits .255 MUST be better than a catcher that hits .220.. RIGHT??? And then they think: “Besides we have PLENTY of pitching!”

Da hula hoop

I like stewart better than whitey…Neither one can hit but stewart is much better on D… Play stewart more till the market goes down and then try and get a established catcher…

Fit Panda

We are so deep in pitching we should trade Cain or lincecum for like 3-4 catchers.

Mavo

@Wisdom Cow – we normally our on the same page .. but not so on this catching argument. I agree Whiteside has not looked good on passed balls or throwing … SO FAR! I think as he gets accustomed to playing more he will improve in these areas. Remember he has not been used to catching this many games for years. Give the guy a chance before you throw him under the bus!

And throwing Casilla into a deal could very well come back to haunt us if a few of our pitchers come down with sore arms later this summer … or even more to the point … if he truly HAS turned the corner in his career and is going to be a lights out reliever for the next 10 years! Giving up pitching on this team makes no sense .. unless the upgrade at catcher is GREAT … and Torrealba for our guys is not even that big an upgrade!

Scrubs

Pacman68 – why do we care how long it takes Timmy to adapt to new pitchers? New catchers would seem to pose more of a concern to me regarding Timmy.

Mike Souza

@Mavo, Your arrogance is annoying. You think your opinion is law & if anyone has a different one you talk down to them or rationalize them as insane, or whiners or some other name.

Johnfromnj

What is with all the “these guys” accusations lately?

Channelclemente

Mavo, I have a great Bochy, Ryan, Little League story I’ll tell one of these days. Bochy never caught Ryan in a game, but he did his share off the field while he was with the Astros. If he could have hit .270, he would have gone down in baseball history as one of the best catchers ever, especially handling a staff. Hitting less the .220 on his best years made him the ‘Eli’ of Astros.

Scrubs

Uncle Joe – you gotta be kidding me, lincecum and Cain are untouchable why trade away what got us here

The Wisdom Cow

Yeah, MAVO (@ 1:56), that is our exact logic.

That was not only insulting, it showed you did not bother to read the above posts before commenting on them. Of course, linking the rumor of a Casilla for Torreabla to the A.J. Pierzynski trade and saying how bad it would be to give up on Runzler, who was not even in the conversation, shows less logic than the comparison of BAs regarding the C position.

fooj

Looks like we’ve got the old “Tejada” back…since Renteria isn’t around to “show up” anymore. IMO, Tejada showed us exactly what he’s capable of during the Reds series. I would love to get rid of Tejada…the guy reeks of bad ju-ju.

Scrubs

I like channel clementes statement that there are NOT 3 catchers in MLB qualified to handle our staff then proceeds to disprove his own statement by listing 3 who could handle our staff. Please have more pointless arguments with yourself, it provides great comedic relief.

Channelclemente

Mike Souza,

No matter who utters it, right is right. Not to recognize it is just argumentative and a tad arrogant itself. Torrealba is a disaster, Treanor, maybe a bit better, but you got to get to the likes of Yadir Molina to find anyone who can do the job cold, no ST to get acclimated. Just handling the ‘stuff’ of the likes of Lincecum, Baumgarner, Lopez, Adfeldt, Sanchez, and Wilson is over the head of most MLB catchers, much less knowing how to frame them and sequence them to the best advantage against hitters and umps. If a catcher here does all that well, and hits above .230-.240, learn to love him.

patricio

i don’t think tejada on the bench is a bad thing. remember edgar last year? if he’s the starting SS we have problems, but unless he’s got great lifetime numbers vs. a starting pitcher, or he’s giving crawford a day off against a lefty, we won’t see much more of him in a fulltime role this year. he leads the league in GIDP over the past 7 years. terrible 2 hitter. but he’s not our starting SS anymore, so i think it’s time to move on to the next gripe, whatever that may be.

The Wisdom Cow

Mavo, I like Eli as a back up. I know I am coming across as throwing him under the bus, but in truth I only mean to do so for the starters role or even a 50% platoon.

In complete seriousness, do you really believe Eli can improve his game shape during the season? You played C at one time, correct? A catcher gets the crap beaten out of them all year long. None get in better shape during the season.

And this is giving Eli the benefit of the doubt that his issues are from being tired and not just getting older and not having it, which is just as likely, meaning he may not even be a serviceable back up anymore.

If Whiteside and Stewart were such irreplaceable cogs in the machine, Sabean would not even be looking elsewhere. Unless this is one area where it is you and Clemente that are smarter than the GM.

Channelclemente

Scrubs, you need to take that course in logic and discourse over again. Practice will help, I’m convinced. I even rank ordered them, and you learned nothing. That takes anti-talent.

Fit Panda

I think every starter should have personal catcher. So Sabean needs to get off his worthless butt and find four guys (Pablo is the fifth) who can catch and play another position on days they’re not catching.

It would be great if one of those guys could be a closer, too, so then we could trade Wilson for the 6 or 7 legitimate bats that this offense sorely needs.

THEN you’ll see this team take over first place in the NL West instead of rotting in first place where they are now. Banked.

Delphic B-ball

To quote one of Bip Roberts’ too often used phrases: “ya got to give him credit”. I mean Bochy. I was cringing at the lineup he put in there with Tejada, Hall, Burrell and Whiteside. But Bruce has the magic touch these days. They all contributed to the win and I am happy to say I am not as good a manager on the couch as he is on the field. I realized how bad a manager Guerin was when they played at ATT. He made some really bad decisions. Taking Anderson out in the 5th after only 70 some odd pitches when he was killing the Giants was crazy. If the Giants win the west this year he should be Manager of the Year.

bullship

It is a foregone conclusion the giants have to improve their catching if they expect to make the world series. Sabaen will find one at a pricse he can live with, and to all assertions to the contrary, currently the giants field the worst catchers in baseball, the worst 1st baseman and worst Ss(miggy) so my suggestion is that they find a couple of more everyday players, not just a catcher. The giants were 2nd in run differential in all of baseball last year, and are not close this year….that will kill them eventually, and it is going to be hard for them to pitch much better, so the answer is GET SOME BATS…

Scrubs

Beyond the guys here, Whiteside and Stewart, there aren’t three catchers in MLB qualified to manage this staff. Those guys are currently employed in St Louis, Philly, and Milwaukee

Quoted right from your post channelclemente – your logic is terrible and horribly flawed. You clearly state there is not 3 catchers in MLB qualified to handle our staff. Then proceed to name three that you say are. Like I said above, keep the comedic relief coming, it’s the only area of your writing I see any talent.

Mike Souza

@Channelclemente, So since when did 2 career minor league journemen become the answer at catcher on a contending club. I could care less if the catcher was hitting 200. Or 240., but I do want a catcher who can throw & play some D if he has no stick. That is a bit much to think that anyone short of Y. Molina could not handle this staff & upgrade the catching position.

Mavo

@Wisdom Cow – I think Bochy will go to a rotation at C in order to keep both guys fresher. That way they both can avoid getting beat up as the season progresses.

Yes I was a catcher and that is why I realize how much more it takes to be a valuable catcher than just baseball card stats like some on here use too often to make their arguments.

@MikeSouza – sorry if my opinions are strong and heartfelt! I will NOT tone them down just to make people feel ‘warm and fuzzy’! Sorry if my knowledge comes off as arrogance to you! If you don’t want to read my “arrogant” postings then I suggest you just skip them.

Mike Souza

And before someone corrects me, I know Stewart & Whiteside both had cups of coffee, but they were still labeled as career minor leaguers before joining the GIANTS.

Channelclemente

Scrubs, I stand by my response to you, buy the book, turn to index, it’s in the back, look for composite domain and the ‘and’ function and work from there. Enjoy.

El Lobo

The window for trading for a reliever for a catcher is between 6/28 and 7/31. Until then, I will be very surprised if Sabes makes a move unless there is a deal he just can’t pass up. Indications from Baggs is that a spot will need to be made for Zito by 6/28 for a spot start. At that point, one reliever needs to go to the DL, get traded or DFA’d. I can’t imagine any reliever on this staff getting DFA’d. And I hope that no pitcher goes on the DL, but it could happen. In the month of July, teams will separate into those that believe they are in contention and those who don’t and want prospects for the future. I doubt Sabes will give up prospects for a catcher unless the Whitey/Stew platoon is so bad that the pitchers go into a funk. So that limits the trades to (likely) AL teams who are still in the hunt and will be willing to do a win-win trade for a reliever. Not sure who those teams are, but I doubt it will be a serious upgrade over the current guys. I really don’t care if the catcher never gets on base as long as they can handle the staff and play decent defense.

So expect that we’ll continue to get gnashing of teeth over every passed ball and errant throw while the Giants continue to play .600 ball over the next month.

Popular

Ooops sorry clicked Paste instead of cut and my post went all bad

Mavo

@MikeSouza – there are plenty of examples of pitching rich teams winning with below average offensive catchers. Handling the pitching staff is a lot more than just blocking balls in the dirt or throwing out base runners. That is the part of this equation that many of you are not taking into account… namely the time it would take a new catcher to learn the staff and get comfortable catching them! And I did not see any of these defensive shortcomings with Whiteside before.. so I believe he is 1) tired from catching so much 2) pressing too hard or 3) just in a slump behind the plate.

BDA

scrubs (yawn) i say we ride this horse as presently constituted to the ground (by my defn: 6 games behind leader) and if it ever falls then i am all for aaa lineups, letting bochys friends and family play, trading the farm or trading the mansion.

ClutchUp

I don’t know to whom to direct my remarks anymore…But I can’t stem the tide apparently when
lineups are posted and they are deemed shi$$y by others. Then the next day or after the game the detractors grab at words like: “He” was Lucky, so and so would have made the same play, but better, “he” would have jumped higher, another first baseman would have had that pop up, bench so and so.

There are great guys/gals on this site that can pontificate with the best of them while quoting which stat is going to eventually do in this club.

Since Eric Byrnes is on assignment I can now listen to Ray Woodson even though Lee Hammer did not hire him for prime time (Hammer said Woodson is too boring)

What almost appeared like a lame caller at first…last night…the caller said “As long as whoever is playing (he said in there) does something to help the team win…will be okay.

I can’t tell you how many times I have seen Bochy’s lineup posted and read all the comments here about how bad it is, and then sat back and expected the naysayers to be correct – and at the end – there is a Giant victory.

Then I have seen the Lineups posted by Bochy and read all who said Yippee Hooray and sat back and waited for the Win…and yet…sometimes there is a loss…

Me thinks both the 2010 and now more so the 2011 Giants just have a Fox Hole mentality and no matter how inferior their “weapons” are compared to their opponents and no matter how many in their “platoon” get injured a little or badly…they are going to give every opponent a run for their money and give most fans who “let them” a wild carpet ride mixed with equal parts exhilaration and exasperation.

I’m on board

Shapeshift

Channel Clemente I’m gonna side with scrubs you said there were not 3 who could handle the staff then you listed 3, read your own writing again, you are a poor writer if you can’t look passed your arrogance to see your mistake. I am a poor write but I’m not arrogant enough to deny it and am at least competent enough to see your mistake or maybe it’s just bad logic on your part. Either way I hate to say it you are wrong this time. Man up and admit it for once.

Scrubs

Well said shapeshift- keep in mind most Internet tough guys like channel Clemente will refuse to admit they made a mistake or even worse maybe he isn’t educated enough to recognize his failures

Giant PITA

Mavo must be having a bad day. He’s not usually so surly toward his fellow posters.

I’ve read Mavo’s and Channel’s thoughts on the catching position dilema and though they have great insight and some merit, I think they are both flawed (just my humble opinion, not trying to pick a fight).

I just happen to agree with Cow and Souza on this issue.

Stewart did not have a lengthy familiarization period with the pitching staff and he seems to be doing just fine behind the plate. IMO he’s doing better than Whiteside in every aspect of the game right now.

Other catchers in the league that Sabean may acquire are also professional players and it seems they are not being given any credit here, as if our two career back up/minor leaguers are the only ones capable of handling our pitchers. I just don’t believe that is true.

Channelclemente

Mike Souza,

I don’t think anyone is making the case that Whiteside is a jewel or Stewart and diamond in the rough. Rather, under these circumstances with this staff on a team like the Giants, a new face can’t be just plugged in, ergo my comment about ST. For instance, when Posey framed a pitch for Lincecum, a lot of the time, maybe most of it, the actual pitch ended up elsewhere. That’s either a function a missed sign, or more likely the extreme and at times hard to predict action/movement on Lincecum’s ball. Really gifted catchers learn to anticipate that action and deal with it in the ~500 milliseconds a catcher has to react. This staff is filled with ‘wierdos’ like that who drive even an experienced catcher like Whiteside crazy. 3/4 or more of Whitesides problems come from being good to average and not great. Put Torrealba in there, in my opinion, and it becomes a disaster. His fielding and blocking skills are atrocious, that’s why he was passed on by Black in San Diego, and got ‘lateral’ dollars when he signed with the Rangers.

Cleef

I’ve seen this before I bet channel Clemente is all red faced and emoraging right about now.

Mike Souza

@Mavo, I am just so sick of hearing how Whiteside is some great caller or some invalubale force on this team. Our pitchers are studs & they make even well below average catchers look like great game callers because they know what they want to throw & they exucute their pitches. I am not concerned about acquiring some stud hitter as a catcher, but I want a guy who won’t give up 90 ft with continued passed balls. And if Whiteside is so sore or beat up how come he looked so good on the basepaths getting that triple & then slid headfirst for style points? Didn’t have the look of a beat up or sore guy to me. There are very important reasons why the GIANTS brought both of their current catchers to the majors from the minors as they were close to 30 years old & languishing in AAA. Nobody wanted them!

Scrubs

Channel Clemente wrote: I don’t think anyone is making the case that Whiteside is a jewel or Stewart and diamond in the rough.

Brilliant use of the word and in my opinion. Maybe take your own advice and grab that book you suggested as you clearly do not know how to properly use the word and yourself.

The Wisdom Cow

Mavo, I’d still like your thoughts on this, though.

First, the presumption: Eli’s struggles (not talking at the plate, talking behind it) are noticeably well below the level he played at in previous seasons. We’ve been posting comments about it for quite a while and Baggs just did as well. The presumption is that he is not accustomed to playing so much and it is hurting his stamina such that his technique is now becoming suspect.

Do you see him improving physically if he only plays 5 of 10 games?

IMO, that only slows down the wear and tear of the season. I can not imagine him becoming more “fit” while playing catcher. 2 games a week, maybe, without any foul tips, otherwise, I can’t see it.

——————————-

Of note, for a guy that sprinted pretty damn quick to 3B last night, I am not so certain his being physically tired is behind his back hand attempts to block balls in the dirt or the clear lack of the player that we used to see throw his body in front of errant pitches. The above presumption may not be what is the problem.

bullship

Re post 155….

Everyone taking the time to post here is ‘on board’ , if being on board means being a fan of the Giants and hoping they win and are successful.

BUT…. by saying I am concerned about all the one run games, the worst run production in baseball and the shaky defense at some spots doesn’t make me less of a fan. It means I would like to see the giants shore-up some of these weaknesses so they can improve their chances of winning the WS this year. The fact is the giants have the means to acquire some additional talent, and probably should instead of relying on ‘ a bunker mentality’…I prefer to rely on players with proven talent as opposed to any ‘feelings’…

- The catcher in all levels of baseball is known as the equivalent of the baseball Quarterback.

- One can be sick of whatever they want regarding their own perceptions of reality.

- I went to the San Jose Hot Stove Dinner and spoke to Raggs about the types of catchers that the organization pursues.

- The entire Giants staff – not just the starters – have spoken privately and publicly as to what THIER view is of their catchers (even Billie Hayes and Taira Uematsu – who got a FULL WS share)

- Insiders seem to know that something about Whiteside is banged up, apparently is wasnt his legs as noted on the triple.

- Only funny side to getting Torrealba – is that he used to kill us at times when he faced us.

Giant PITA

@bullship #164,

Bravo!

Channelclemente

I’m really troubled you think I’m a bad writer, but comforted that the essence of the argument penetrated. I’m also a notoriously bad speller. Boy is there a lot in baseball I still don’t get, routes in the outfield being one big one. But pitching, I, for the most part, get.

By the way, is your angst driven by your propensity to make lineups?

ClutchUp

What is emoraging…

Mavo

One fact that I take as a absolute GIVEN is this: Bochy knows more about catching that ALL of us on this blog combined! PERIOD!!

So, if Bochy is NOT panicking and is NOT desperately asking Sabes for a new catcher … then I can safely assume that … regardless of all the opinions on this blog … he is satisfied for now with his catching situation! If he was that worried they’d already have Bengie signed to a minor league deal to get him in shape for the stretch run… although that concept of Bengie getting in shape is a STRETCH!!

CalBear

I have tried to find a bullpen ERA stat, and have had no luck. Anyone reading this late entry who knows where/how to find Team Pitching stats which include total averages from the pens, pls. let me know. ( K, OurTeam, #96?)
On G’s pen: the most amazing part is any of the set up guys. If Romo walks anyone, that is big news. Lopez is untouchable. Long relief is a different story, but Righetti knows what he is doing. And, there is always Zito ( who btw has been looking VERY good lately)
I see Cassilla as the weakest link in a very strong chain, and one which won’t be missed. And, wherein I cannot remember ever disagreeing with Cow, insurance behind the plate at the cost of a reliever we don’t really need seems like a very plausible deal.
While on the ‘pen, ( and this will ruffle some down) I need someone to once again explain why Bochy takes out very good relievers, or starters for that matter, only to play The Beard. Wilson’s walks have to be higher per inning that Sanchez. He rarely throws as well as his immediate predecessors, and invented the word, “torture”.
And, why did Bochy relieve Crawford, anyway?
And, who knows what’s up with Belt? Is he almost ready? if so, when?
And, finally, a toast to Baggs. While I consider Gary Radnich one of the most abrasive, narcissistic and insulting sports opinions here in the Bay Area, he is nonetheless the most aired. That being said, it was very heartening to hear his out-of-character praise yesterday on KNBR for Baggs as probably the best sports writer in the Bay Area. I didn’t have time to hear if Baggs was on his show a bit later, but, Gratz to ya either way, Mr. Baggerly.
Now, get off your new celebrity butt and write us something about Belt or Crawford, or how long you thing the Giants can last at the top of their division with the lowest runs in Baseball?

Channelclemente

Clutch emoraging is the equivalent of being an Oakland A’s fan who actually goes to games right now.

All indications are that Sabean is looking under rocks for potential catchers, from rumors with specific big league Cs to the Giant scouts now scouring the AAA clubs. I do not believe it is safe to say Bochy may not be entirely satisfied with his catching situation. It is a certainty that Sabean is not.

A quip because of exasperation to not be taken personally, but please don’t bring up Bengie as a legitimate option unless you have personal knowledge of him being in better physical shape than he was last year. Who did the Rangers sign instead of Bengie?

Foothills Ryan

@ Calbear,

here is a sort from Fangraphs on relievers based on WAR. 2nd to Braves pen with Venters & Kimbrel et al. Enjoy!

My opinion, Bochy manages in the moment. When he or Reghetti see something that is an indicator of a reliever loosing it (Romo’s slider up), he yanks him.

Tejada for Crawford, Tejada had hit .400-.500 against Saunders historically.

Casiila has a sub 2.00 ERA, throws 95-97 MPH, and is just 3-4 games off the DL and improving with each appearance.

Foothills Ryan

From one UCLA Bruin (shout out to Brandon Crawford) to a Cal Bear…

Foothills Ryan

From one UCLA Bruin (& a shout out to Brandon Crawford) to a Cal Bear…

Foothills Ryan

Wisdom Cow. Two words on the catching situation.

Due diligence.

OMT

Ray Woodson IS boring!

To-fake-bah!

Fish – MEAT!

Mavo

@Wisdom Cow – I’d rather have a out of shape Bengie than Torrealba any day! Torrealba couldn’t carry Bengie’s jock when it comes to handling a pitching staff! Do you think it is a coincidence that he won a World Championship with the Angels in 2002 and was the catcher on … not one .. but BOTH World Series teams last year? Bengie is derided for his being out of shape … but NOBODY should ever question his skills behind the plate!

Foothills Ryan

tried to post you the link Calbear but it disappeared. play around on fangraphs or baseball reference. you’re a cal grad. you’ll figure it out. from a UCLA Bruin (with a shout out to Brandon Crawford) to a Cal Bear…

Channelclemente

Now I am redfaced, I forgot McCann in Atlanta. Hoisted on my own petard.

Giant PITA

@ mavo,

If I didn’t know better I’d think you secretely like passed balls.

Benjie wasn’t blocking balls consistently either last year. There’s no excuse for a professional catcher to attempt to backhand balls in the dirt. If a catcher is physically unable to move his body to properly block balls, he shouldn’t be playing. Add to that the abismal throws to bases and total lack of hitting (sans yesterday’s triple, and please don’t tell me that hit means anything in the scope of an entire season or career) there is obviously something wrong with Whiteside.

You’re correct in that we’ve not seen him this bad before, but we are seeing it over and over now. It’s not acceptable and I don’t see how it can be allowed to continue for the rest of the season.

I don’t think you can speak for Bochy on how he feels the catching situation truly is and whether or not he wants a new catcher. He’s not going to come out and say so in the media. Who know’s what he’s saying to Sabean behind closed doors. Obviously, Sabean is looking or there wouldn’t be reports that he is.

The Wisdom Cow

Oddly enough, Texas chose to sign Torreabla instead of Bengie.

And they made that decision before he got out of playing shape!

Mavo, I only ridiculed his shape last year (at great length, I admit) because his skills behind the plate were in serious decline. He was lazy with the glove like Eli has been lately and he was physically unable to scoot well laterally to block balls. IMO, the trade lit a fire for him and helped his D in Texas, yet, again, they did not resign him.

Johnfromnj

Channel C-
You really think that there are only 4 catchers in the NL that could effectively catch the Giants 2011 staff? Besides Ruiz, McCann, Y. Molina and Lucroy, no other current NL catcher? Not just a little internet hyperbole? You actually believe that?

OMT

I don’t want Torealba for the same reason I don’t want Brandon Phillips, Milton Bradley, A.J. Piersynski, or Prince Fielder (wish I was wrong on him, plus he’ll want to much $) on this… Team.

It’s obvious Sabean is looking for another solution to catcher and will pull the trigger when it’s absolutely needed and/or the deal is right.

It’s also obvious that Bochy is working Stewart in more and more to achieve what I hope is at least a 50/50 balance of Stewart and Whiteside.

Not defining starts but since June 6th. Whiteside has played June 6, 8, 9, 11, 14, 15. Stewart has played June 6, 7, 10, 12, 14. The platooning has already begun.

I’m still calling Pudge as the one who will wear black and orange. HOF candidate with great skills still behind the dish, I wish his bat was what it used to be, but… and he has excellent knowledge to pass on to the young staff for the remainder of the season and into the playoffs. Will not be in the way next year when Posey comes back. The deal is done in 3-5 weeks…

Just my call, could be wrong

Johnfromnj

Whoops- on second glance you said all of MLB, not just the NL.
You must think very little of the current crop of major league starting catchers if you think that only 4 of the 29 could manage the 2011 SF staff.

Giant PITA

@ OMT,

Pudge would be fine. However, if Pudge was hitting like the old Pudge he’d be starting for the Nats or at least his price would be even higher.

Besides your forgetting that we have Bam Bam the hitting guru who can fix him just like he did with Bill Hall. 30 minutes with Bam Bam and Hall found something in his mechanics that he’d been missing for 3 years and now he feels like he did back in ’05-’06. Man, why doesn’t Bam Bam just do that for all our hitters, offensive problem solved!

The precedding paragraph was sarcasm for those that didn’t get it.

10dollabeerz

Mavo, you saying that you’d rather have Bengie Molina right now than Torrealba basically makes anything else you say about the catching situation irrelevant. That’s got to be one of the craziest things I’ve ever read.

And you contradicted your own point when you said that Bochy knows catching: he took Whiteside out in the 9th the other day, admitting that his ball blocking skills aren’t adequate.

Chris Stewart caught a only a few spring training games, and he quickly learned how to “handle this staff”. So a proven MLB veteran catcher couldn’t come in and learn as fast as Stewart, a lifelong minor leaguer? That’s a little shortsighted in my opinion. If the Giants got Pudge or Ramon Hernandez, they could quickly learn the pitchers by catching bullpens, watching film, and talking face to face with them.

Honestly, it’s a little ridiculous to think that there aren’t any catchers out there that could step in and be upgrades over Whiteside and Stewart, two guys who have never really even served consistent time as 2nd string catchers in the MLB prior to last year (Whiteside) and this month (Stewart).

This pitching staff is so good, and along with the management of Righetti and Bochy they could easily adapt to a new catcher, especially if the catcher could block balls in the dirt and throw out baserunners.

I find it fairly ridiculous that this topic has even become a legitimate argument on here. Baggs just tweeted last week that “the Giants biggest need is an upgrade at catcher”. So all of you that claim to have insider knowledge as to what goes on inside of the heads of our pitchers and managers, I think I’d trust Baggs’ insider knowledge over yours.

CalBear

To both Mavo and Foothills….TYVM…this blog is the greatest. Oh, and, back at ya for the shout out, Ryan…..I live in PLEASANTON!!!

and, Go Bears!, Mavo! What a year! J. Rogers, J. Kidd after 17n years?
and, after wife and I went to Santa Clara to see Cal Beat Dallas Baptist, kind of a toss up whether or not to go to my son’s wedding this weekend or catch a plane to OMAHA!!! Cal’s Coach on Sports talk answered Radnich’s Q, per has he been in touch w any Cal pro alums? Coach said he called a St. Louis Cardinal Old Blue last month, asked if he would like to come see the Bears play…..uhhhh, ya think? TEN ST. LOUIS CARDINALS showed up to watch the game, including Poulhose ( sp?) I can already picture the looks as I am listening to the game during the wedding this weekend….oh, well.

And another thanks, to Channel, for the answer to Bochy’s knee jerk per Wilson, and Cassilla’s stats. I dunno…maybe old school. But, sometimes, I think the numbers get in the way of sound baseball. Juan Marichal tells the story of arguing in the 11th inning with Alvin Dark who wanted to take him out, that he was only 25, and Warren Spahn was 40.
Willy Mays saw Juan forlorn in the dugout, 2 innings later, still sneaking out to the mound each inning, told him to just pitch a few more. Mays won the game with a homer in the bottom of the 16th, 200 pitches each by both Marichal and Spahn.

ScottA

Mavo (#117), I don’t even know where to begin with your arguments….

For starters, no one is expecting Whiteside or Stewart to be Posey. No one. But I’d hope that they will at least be something more than automatic outs. And that they might block a wild pitch once in a while or throw out a few base runners occasionally. Right now, they aren’t doing much of anything very well, or consistantly.

Don’t forget, Whiteside has been a backup catcher his entire career, even in the minors. Dude just isn’t ready for the day-to-day rigors of catching. He may not ever be.

You act like Torrealba being only a career .250 hitter is a bad thing? That’s about 40 more points than Whiteside is hitting currently, and a full 50 points higher than Stewart! Right now, I’ll take .250.

You say it would take time for Torrealba to acclimate to the Giants pitching? Maybe true. But Stewart did. They’re talking about Panda doing it in a couple of days, and he hasn’t caught in like 2 years. I think a professional like Torrealba can do it, too.

Others here have mentioned Whiteside’s seeming inability to block the plate. I cringe at the way he stabs at a loose ball with his glove instead of blocking it with his body. And he really can’t throw out runners, unless he gets a lucky throw. I’ll take someone with the track record of Torrealba, thank you.

And I’m not sure you can say that Stewart is better defensively than Torrealba. Can you say “small sample size”?

You said, “If Sabean really valued Torrealba he would have signed him last year when he was a FA.” Well, duh, when he was a free agent, Posey wasn’t injured yet and out for the season (with a SMALL possibility that he’ll never play catcher again!). Why in the heck would Sabean have signed a free agent catcher when they had the ROY and one of the major’s top catchers, coming off of a World Series victory??? They didn’t need him then, but they do now. Your point is moot.

Like others on this talkback have already mentioned, what the heck does the Joe Nathan trade have to do with anything??? Stupid point, dude.

You say, “I think Runzler could very well be the next Joe Nathan or an effective starter if they continue to convert him.” Based on what? Gut instinct? Give me a break. You can say whatever you want, but the odds of a (very poor pitching) Runzler somehow turning it around and becoming a solid starting pitcher for years to come is… well… miniscucule at best.

The one point you make that I agree with is that pitching staffs CAN change overnight and go from “loaded” to “busted down”. The A’s are definitely a good example of that. But I seriously doubt that the Giants’ entire pitching staff would collapse if they traded one arm. Also agreed that the Giants’ success is based on pitching. I think that’s pretty obvious and even the most casual baseball fan would agree with that point.

And where did all this Runzler stuff come from, anyway??? I heard that the Rangers wanted Casilla, not Runzler.

Mavo

@ScottA – if you cannot see how the Nathan trade of a few “expendable” pitchers for a catcher … a trade that blew up big time in Sabean’s face! … is pertinent to this discussion .. well I suggest you look in the mirror before you call anyone stupid on here!!

Channelclemente

johnfromnj,

hyperbole, without a doubt, but the point, that plug and play at the catcher position is a prescription for disaster with the Giants staff, is I believe, accurate. If I have a goal, it’s only to talk about the merits of the players rather than lurch to the likes of Torrealba vs Whitesides. I believe nobody who’s cheap will likely fit the bill. I just don’t know too much about AL catchers beyond stats. For all I know Bochy may see something in Torrealba I don’t, no suprise there. All I know is the handling of the Rangers staff from ST to today has been about the most inept I’ve ever seen. That’s on Torrelalba and the ‘lesser’ Maddux, in my opinion.

If stating a firmly held opinion unsettles some, so be it.

ScottA

Mavo (#169), how do you KNOW that Bochy is not panicking and desperate??? Do you think if he was, if the Giants are, that they are going to let the general public — and more importantly, the other GMs — know that???

The asking price for any catchers out there would double over night.

I’m not saying that the Giants are definitely panicking or desperate. I have no idea. And I’m smart enough not to assume one way or the other and claim to know it for an absolute fact, like some people I could mention… Mavo.

10dollabeerz

Mavo, he didn’t call you stupid, calm down. The reason the Pierzynski trade has nothing to do with this situation is that Sabean got AJ with the intentions of him being their starting catcher for years to come, and with the hope of him playing the position (both offensively and defensively) at an All-Star caliber. That’s why he gave up so much for him.

This time, the Giants just need someone that will be an upgrade for the rest of the season over their 2nd and 3rd string catchers.

You win some, you lose some. It’s ok to admit when you lose one, Mavo. Nobody will think any less of you, we all know you’re a smart, knowledgeable baseball guy. This argument isn’t helping your cause however.

Giant PITA

@ScottA,

I think you echoed my sentiments exactly (see #s 158 & 183), though you maybe did it a bit more artfully.

@$10,

Agree

ScottA

Mavo, (#192), do you think if you roll a six-sided dice nine times in a row and get a “1″ every single time that the odds are astronomical that the tenth time you’d get another “1″???

The odds are still 1 in 6, every single time.

The fact that the Giants made a poor trade involving a catcher once does not mean that making another trade involving another catcher will automatically be a poor trade.

The. Two. Have. NOTHING. To. Do. With. Each. Other.

Channelclemente

10dollar, I ‘think’ Mavo is making the argument of giving up potential talent for percieved talent in a situation that’s not an emergency is a mistake. If Whiteside or Stewart had been injured, the situation might be different, but Torrealba’s credentials ‘to those who have watched him’, aren’t sufficiently valuable to move a pitcher like Casilla. Doesn’t mean those with all the facts won’t do it, but with the facts in hand, it isn’t sensible. Especially with the Rangers, who continually misjudge their talent. Even they would admit now, that trading Treanor was a mistake.

If a trade does come, I would put in a pitch for the kid they have in AAA at Roundrock. He’s major league ready and with the job he’s done with the MLB staff the Rangers have had in RR undergoing rehab (almost all of them at one time or another), and his hitting, in the hands of Giants coaching, he could be another quality catcher approaching Posey.

The article praises Rowand’s bat control and suggests moving him to the 2 hole if the Giants had Reyes. What?

OMT

Joe Nathan was never going to be anything in SF. He always looked like a deer in headlights here. I don’t know what it was, but it just wasn’t ever going to work. He always looked like he was gonna starting crying to me. So the change of scenery was what did for him, or a different coaching staff, who knows.

Yeah, A.J. We all know what happened with that. Trade stunk, but I fail to see how it was so bad on Sabean’s account with the above comments.

Giant PITA

@ ChannelC #198,

Are you referring to Teagarden? He’s backing up Torrealba right now. Napoli is on the DL.

OMT

Wait I just notice its 610 innings for Liriano since 2005. He missed all of 2007. Even worse.

Channelclemente

Yeah, couldn’t remember hsi name, Taylor Teagarden. I didn’t know he was up, I looked about 2 weeks ago and he was still in RR. He is rumored to be a good one. For some reason, the Rangers just can’t seem to get talent at pitcher and catcher from RR that can make a go of it. They hoped and hope that Ryans influence (ruthlessness) will change all that.

Mavo

I was trying to make the point that trading young “expendable” pitchers can backfire… and giving up Casilla or Runzler to get a fill in catcher for this year is a LOT worse in my mind than even what Sabean did in 2003 for AJ! If you guys cannot see the logic in that … then I am sorry.. and I DON’T need any basic lessons in logic or probabilities Scott!!

Mavo

@Giant PITA – do you not believe it is possible for a fresh set of eyes to see something others have missed? If you admit to that .. then your attempt at sarcasm above should be categorized as farce instead!! It IS entirely possible that Bam Bam saw something simple in Hall’s swing that others have missed for years!! We’ll see how it plays out.. but it is definitely possible!

Giant PITA

Any trade can backfire, whether it involves pitchers or not. Sitting on your hands when you have a glarring weakness can also backfire.

BDA

“how do you KNOW that Bochy is not panicking and desperate” bochy is the skipper of the uss giants, a boat that has been taking on water, lots of it, as of late. as an owner of a rowboat, i know that when i am in the middle of the lake and taking on water my only thoughts are “how do i keep this afloat and what do i have to do to get this thing to shore”. you panick and get desperate only AFTER the point where your head is 2 feet under the water when you stand up in the boat – giants are nowhere near that yet.

OMT

Just like when you let one go. You might have to call it a “shart”

Giant PITA

@ mavo,

It is possible? Sure. Is it likely? Not. I think Hall was lobbying for playing time with his claim, but like you said we’ll see.

Why doesn’t Bam Bam help our struggling hitters if he’s so good? Do they need a fresh set of eyes too?

BDA

bochy isn’t panicking – he is planning and doing a fine job of it.

10dollabeerz

To be clear, I am not a Torrealba fan. He would be at the bottom of my list of catchers to acquire.

Mavo, Casilla is not young by any means. He’s 30. You continue to ridicule people who, that in your opinion, are only looking at stats on a baseball card. If you think Casilla is some huge piece of the bullpen, I would say you might just be looking at stats (I know you aren’t, but I’m making the point that just because someone differs from your opinions it doesn’t mean that they don’t know anything about baseball).

From watching Casilla, he’s not a guy I would ever trust in a big game, especially in a do-or-die situation. His inability to throw strikes, his propensity to get behind in the count, and his not-so-rare spells of not being able to throw strikes is a great concern. He is not a key cog in the Giants pen; they did just fine with him on the DL for a majority of this season.

I would trade Casilla for a legitimate starting catcher any day of the week. Do I want it to be Torrealba? No.

Channelclemente

Scott A.’ That’s a mistake I think is easily made with baseball, in my opinion. If your going to pick a gambling metaphor for baseball, it’s probably not dice, but poker, more particularly seven card stud. The outcome is not based on the value of numerical and facecards, but on the mix and arrangement of those cards with one another.

Mavo

@Giants PITA – you obviously are ignorant of how one simple tip from Nolan Ryan in 1992 changed Randy Johnson’s whole career!! He simply noticed that Randy was landing on his heel when he threw.. he told him to land on the ball of his foot .. and voila! a Hall of Fame career was born!!

So your making light of Bam Bam maybe noticing something key in Hall’s swing only shows your lack of baseball knowledge to many of us!

BDA

mavo knows of what he speaks

Mavo

@Giant PITA – did you ever think that maybe Bam Bam does not know EVERYTHING about hitting and each player’s problem? So if he does not know EVERTHING .. it is possible he could help one player and not another! Just because Nolan Ryan could fix Randy Johnson’s problem of landing on his heel (see above) … does not mean he could fix J Sanchez’s mechanics!! Com’on this is simple common sense now!!

ClutchUp

Lots of experts still going at inspite of the fact that no matter what – Bochy and Sabean from about 2010-2013 have pushed enough buttons to make the team competitive.

Nobody (?) seems to ever take into consideration that the team in the other dugout is trying to kick the sno out off our club.

@Mavo, you are right I was ignorant of that Ryan/Johnson fact. Thanks for the link.

However, that does not make me ignorant about baseball or wrong in my earlier statements.

Time will tell in the case of Hall, and I really hope he was telling the truth and has a banner run with the Giants.

But, as I said, if Meulens is really so awesome, why is it that our team can’t hit it’s way out of a wet paper bag? Why can’t he get our offense on track? Is it just that we have inferior hitters (could be the case)? I don’t know.

You really are coming off as high and mighty today Mavo. It’s too bad, I liked you before better!

Giant PITA

I definitely never thought Bam Bam knew EVERYTHING about hitting.

If he did, we would not be 29th in offense.

Mavo

@Giant PITA – I have my good days and bad days I guess! Sorry if I offended anyone.. but it does upset me sometimes when people write things that make no sense to me! I’ll try to tone it down a bit.. but if I get carried away .. just give me the high sign. In the end most all of us are here because we all love the Orange and Black!!

Go Giants.. Sweep those upstart Snakes!!!

Channelclemente

Muellins is a quandry. Hitting has improved, just not at AT&T. I read somewhere that the Giants were in the bottom 20% in runs scored, but in the top 20% in runs scored on the road. I beginning to wonder how far you can take someone beyond his talent as a hitter. I have noticed a big increase in line drives especially from Huff. They have also decided that at least on occassion going the other way is allowed. My hope, this is a work in progress and we’ll see improvement along the way. Taking Posey, Sandoval, Sanchez, and Belt out of the lineup hasn’t helped.

OMT

Finally, thought you were never gonna give it a rest, Mavo. Was starting to remember old GF’s that just wouldn’t let things go, talking in circles, and not remembering what they started arguing about in the first place. Not that that was exactly what you were doing. It just reminded me of that.

ScottA

Channelclemente (#212), I wasn’t trying to compare baseball to dice or any other form of gambling, for that matter. I was just using a very simple illustration to point out that one thing does not automatically affect a completely different thing.

Giant PITA and Mavo, I think you’re both making good points about the whole “Bam Bam noticing something about Hall’s swing”-thing. Personally, I think that Bam Bam could have EASILY spotted something in Hall’s mechanics that others missed. Fresh eyes, and all that.

But the fact that he isn’t making similar gains with other Giants hitters does not make it impossible that it happened with Hall. Meulens has been working with the other Giants for months now and, as such, wouldn’t have that “fresh eyes” thing going for him with them.

Why don’t we just wait and see if Hall puts together a great second half (or last two-thirds, as the case may be).

ScottA

Mavo, you and I have argued today… but I hope that it comes from the spirit that we are all big Giants fans and want what’s best for the team!

You always come across as intelligent and you seem to know your baseball. Sorry if any of my comments today came across as insulting. I think we all get a little carried away sometimes when we are debating.

Channelclemente

Scott A., I wasn’t being snarky, your comment just caused me to think about it. It just seemed an analogy of a game that finally made sense without resorting to that Go vs. Chess comparison used by others.

Giant PITA

@ScottA #223,

I feel the same way. It can be hard to keep the tone from tilting toward’s insulting when one has a disagreement with another over something they feel passionate about. I really enjoy the debate here and think it’s great that we have a place to come to have it.

We all just need to remember to be respectful of each other and remember that we’re all ultimately on the same Giants fan team!

Time to skewer some snakes! Go Giants!

http://WS Tahoe Dirt

I think Boch wants to look like a good mgr by pulling all these moves- I suggest getting a lineup and sticking to it (at least 2 weeks) give these guys a chance- No one will get hot playing every other day.

CB

Trading Casilla doesn’t seem too bad after all, especially for a catcher. But I don’t want Torrealba. Guy is a giants killer, always no matter what team he is on because he hates the Giants for letting him go. But yeah. I think he would ruin team chemistry and we lose a solid reliever. Mota or Runzler are the guys I wouldn’t mind parting with, you know.

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