Who Watches the Watchmen?

It’s one thing to be told you must obey the law. But what being told to obey a cop who is acting contrary to the law?

This happens routinely – and (usually) without consequences.

For the cop, that is.

Here are a few examples:

In many states, it is still legal to “open carry” – that is, to openly carry a firearm on one’s hip (in a holster) or a rifle slung over one’s back… and so on. That is the law. Cops are supposed to know the law as well as enforce the law.

And, more to the point, to be bound by the law.

Not infrequently, they enforce their own law with regard to open carry.

Many videos of such interactions may be viewed on YouTube and so on. A citizen open-carrying his firearm and doing absolutely nothing contrary to the law finds himself confronted by a threatening/order-barking cop who has no legal authority to do this.

The law is clear. It does not matter.

The cop typically begins by demanding ID. Absent probable cause that a crime has been committed or is about to be committed, the cop is already out of legal bounds. The accosted person has every legal right to simply go about his business; to walk away.

God help him if he does so.

The cop’s claim (as an example) that it is “suspicious” to walk around in public with a pistol on one’s hip – or that the sight of this has “alarmed” someone (a Clover) who then called in hysterically to police about it – is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.

Unless the person was threatening people with his gun (the mere sight of it being openly carried doesn’t qualify) he is acting within the bounds of the law.

And yet, he finds himself being hassled by the law.

Eventually, after much rigamarole, he is “free to go.”

There are no consequences for the cop who – using threats and intimidation – abused a citizen contrary to the law.

Another example, recently detailed in a video posted by Will Grigg and also made infamous by the infamous Sandra Bland case:

A motorists is pulled over by a cop for a minor traffic infraction. The cop is within the law to do this. What happens next is another matter.

In the Grigg video and the Bland case, the cop orders the driver to put out the cigarette they are smoking. He has no legal authority whatsoever to do this. While it may be against the law to smoke in a bar these days, your car is still your car – and smoking a cigarette in your own car is still (for the moment) legal.

And yet, in the Grigg video and the Bland case, the drivers’ assertion to that effect – that is, their refusal to submit to an unlawful order – resulted in extreme belligerence. In the Grigg video, it initiated a dramatic escalation of the traffic stop – a minor speeding ticket (74 MPH in a 65 MPH zone) becamea cuff-and-stuff, with the utterly harmless, not-“resisting” middle-aged white male driver grossly abused by a state-costumed thug, who “placed the man under arrest” – that is, manacled him and carted him off to jail. In the Bland case, the consequences escalated to lethal. In a pique of rage triggered by Bland’s refusal to submit to the state-sanctioned thug’s unlawful order – to his personal order – Bland was violently dragged from her vehicle, wrestled to the ground and then manacled and taken to jail, where she later died under very sketchy circumstances.

Why are there no consequences for cops who act contrary to the law?

Shouldn’t cops know the law?

Be held to the law?

Of course, but that’s not how it plays out.

If a citizen, who finds himself accosted by a cop, dares to assert the actual law – and seek its protections – it not infrequently is taken as a personal challenge to the law enforcer’s prickly “authoritah” – which these days is the real law on the street. Instead of backing down and – heaven forbid, apologizing to the citizen for having over-stepped his legal authority – the affronted enforcer often will escalate.

You know, to show who’s boss.

Why is this not severely punished, particularly when there is incontrovertible video evidence of it. Of a violation of the law?

Think about that.

A person does something blatantly illegal – accosting an open carrier, ordering a person to not smoke in their car, demanding ID of a person standing on their own private property, having done nothing whatsoever contrary to the law themselves – and there are no repercussions.

And there are no repercussions because the person violating the law is an official enforcer of the law.

These persons are effectively given sanction to abuse us with impunity, because the law does not apply to them.

Same goes for “speeding” (which they do – and get away with – routinely). Their exemption from “buckle up ” and “distracted” driving statutes.

And they wonder why they are hated by so many.

No matter where you stand on the political-philosophical spectrum, from “law and order” Republican to no harm, no crime Libertarian, all can agree – hopefully – that at bare minimum, the enforcers of the law ought to know the law – and be bound by the law. Just as we are.

Is it too much to ask?

Really?

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There really is a Jewish Conspiracy. Jews do rule the world. They rule insomuch as they are a vanguard part of the Commonwealth Conspiracy you see.

The Germans thought they were fighting a tiny little Island. They didn’t realize they were fighting the greatest empire ever to have existed. An empire with easily militarized naive allies like the United States, in addition to the countless countries they still control directly or indirectly.

This commonwealth is over 2 billion strong. Look at this monument for the 153 countries whose soldiers died in Imperial Wars for the “Secret Imperial Conspiracy.”

Smart people rule the world. A lot of these happen to be Jewish – because Jewish people are smarter, on average, than most people (and over-represented, relative to numbers, among the extremely smart). Take a look at the Bell Curve; at IQ tests…

Because Jewish people are a minority, in terms of their physical numbers, it’s striking to observe how they dominate certain professions. But – again – this is a conspiracy of intelligence and talent.

Einstein, Sakharov… Von Mises and Rothbard…

I’m a white gentile… and we white gentiles are (as a group) smart, but not the smartest. I don’t resent the Jews (and Asians) who – on average – are smarter (higher IQs) than my fellow white gentiles.

This kind of incident illustrates why it is such a big joke to hear conservative commentators make claims such as: ‘comprehensive disarmament of the population won’t work, because even if the government decided on this, the police would lack the will to carry it out’. Really. If police don’t even respect existing legal rights to carry guns, what chance is there that they will have any misgivings about disarming the population once “the law” fully sanctions it. Idiots! And people say leftists are naive.

Mainstream conservatives are often the most gullible and naive people around, the biggest ‘useful idiots’ of them all. Leftists are not so much gullible as they are actively and intentionally subversive of the general good.

I’m exasperated by “conservatives,” too. By their worshipful attitude toward armed government workers (cops and soldiers) whom they idiotically believe exist to “defend their freedoms” and “keep us safe.”

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Law enforcers (their term, it bears emphasizing) exist to enforce laws. Including laws disarming us. Soldiers exist to enforce the will of the imperium externally.

American “conservatives” are very much like the “good Germans” of the Weimar era. They venerate the authority of the state and crave “order” above everything. They believe themselves to be in favor of “freedom” – but only to the extent that it’s not in conflict with their own right-wing (fascist/authoritarian) sympathies.

Me2, watch your sources. Worldnewsdailyreport is a spoof site, not real news (similar to The Onion). Take their article on Hell’s Angels in Canada protesting the legalization of Marijuana for example: http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/canada-hells-angels-members-protest-legalization-of-marijuana/ It took me about 15 seconds to prove it was pure (but nonetheless funny) bunk. But unfortunately someone close to me brought it to my attention, thinking it was the real deal and I had to give them correction. The Internet provides us with a lot of useful, factual and thought provoking information for sure. But it also allows anyone with a bit of web savvy to put out high grade bovine hyperbole in a convincing manner which the unsuspecting will buy lock, stock and barrel. As with anything, caveat emptor.

Me2, the worldnewsdailyreport is a spoof site (at best) similar to The Onion. Someone close to me told me all about the “bikers” in Canada protesting the legalization of Marijuana. It took me about 15 seconds to debunk it and give them correction (see here: http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/canada-hells-angels-members-protest-legalization-of-marijuana/). The Internet provides a lot of factual, useful and eye opening information. But anyone with a bit of web site development savvy can put some truly convincing bovine hyperbole that the uniformed will buy lock, stock and barrel. Check your sources and caveat emptor.

The video of the black guy at his business in the middle of the night is a poor example of police harassment.
For one thing, it’s a “setup” with the black guy behaving in a calculatingly insolent manner in a situation where he “identifies” himself as the business owner, but not really since he just verbally claims the ownership. How would the cop know the dodgy behaving guy is really the owner or just a shuck and jive artist interrupted at the early stage of a B&E?
I own a business in an urban area in Virginia and I go by there at odd hours, sometimes at night. In 30+ years I have been questioned by the police twice and have been friendly and forthcoming with them both times, not deliberately peevish and evasive (as though trying to provoke them). They never asked me for my “papers”, but if they had I would have showed them a drivers license. Frankly it wouldn’t occur to me to refuse, understanding as I do that they are just trying to protect property.
I might have a different attitude if they stopped me walking down the street in broad daylight, but…so far so good on that score.
I’m not excusing thuggish cop behavior in the least and the Bland case was bad. But that video isn’t a good example.

For taking issue with an armed government worker’s unlawful – his insolent – demand that ID be tendered and questions answered?

This is exactly why we have a problem in this once-free country.

Free people should be free to not have to deal with armed government workers unless they’ve committed a crime or clearly appear about to do so.

Neither applied here.

In which case – if this were still a free country – the guy should have been free to walk away/go about his business; free to tell the armed government worker to go fuck himself – and the armed government worker would have to accept it and go the fuck away.

That, Erik, is called freedom.
The presumption of innocence until guilt is proved. Probable cause.

Eric;
My understanding of the incident was the guy was on private property, his private property. That being said, I once again say: how was the cop to know it was the guy’s property based on his say so? How was the cop to know the guy was actually the owner and not a thief?
Are the police to just accept anything people tell them?

A man should not have to present ID or submit to an interrogation or be “detained” without probable cause.

In plain English, some clear reason – more than ” I don’t like your looks” – to suspect a crime has been committed or is about to be committed. A guy standing on his property late at night doesn’t meet that standard absent something else.

It’s dark/late out right now. I sometimes go outside and walk around my property. Should I have to present ID just because a Hero sees me walking around and doesn’t like my looks?

That’s not America.

No one’s called about a break-in. It’s supposed to be a free country… which means free to be out walking around without being threatened by an armed government worker.

Your other examples would work if someone had reported a car stolen and the car fit the description. Or the cop saw the guy jimmy open the door. Probable cause a crime had been committed.

Otherwise?

It’s just fishing – and also, presumption of guilt. Like the checkpoints where people are treated as presumptive drunks until they prove they aren’t.

What made America different – once – was the presumption of innocence.

That you had a right to be left alone unless you did something to warrant otherwise.

“That being said, I once again say: how was the cop to know it was the guy’s property based on his say so? ”

Freedom means that the cop must first prove that the guy is not the property owner. The property owner must not be required to prove to the cop that he is not a thief, merely because the cop has vague suspicions.

Police work is supposed to be hard in a free society. Police work is only easy in a police state.

The police have no more obligation to ‘believe everything anyone tells them’ than you or I have to believe everything anyone tells us. That is beside the point. The point is that the police should have no right to interfere with someone going about their business unless there is enough evidence that they are likely committing an offence.

You have no obligation to convince a cop or any government representative of your innocence. You are innocent until proven guilty by law. And you should be free from interference in your general business unless or until there is probable cause based on the circumstances and evidence that there is a reasonable likelihood of an offence being committed. Moreover, it can be hard convincing a cop of your innocence when his livelihood depends on nabbing as many ‘guilty’ people as possible (as they say, it’s hard to convince someone of something when their livelihood depends on not understanding it).

The sad thing is that its economically crippling to try to stand up for your rights. A “fair and speedy trial” involves a well-paid lawyer, time off work, possible travel to court (which could be far away), and bail. From what I understand you don’t get a refund if you pay bail and later are found ‘not guilty.’

Hi CP, I have never gotten my money back, but I didn’t actually pay the entire amount. In my state, you can pay a bondsman 10% of the bail amount, but he keeps it. Here is a wiki page about Bale Bondsman, and one for bond.
Open carry is legal in my state. If I were to get arrested for carrying; I would try to get the case dismissed before the trial date by using a few of Marc Steven’s methods.

Many things often come from simply being charged. Since lenders are now getting the courts to do such as turning a civil forfeiture such as not being able to repay a loan into a crime the victim ends up with other charges and then unable to make bail ends up in prison or jail or indefinite amounts of time.

Divorce, break-up of families, additional charges, fiscal ruination, losing children to the state(children, the real losers), of course losing your home, cars, as well as all money are well-noted aspects of simply being charges. Almost 90% of people never get a trial what with the bias of the law and courts they plead guilty to lesser charges since few have the means to fight back against the multiple charges that can be levied for one simple perceived crime.

Then there is the fact that in the future if you do get out of jail, with or without a conviction, you’ll be targeted by badged thugs and prosecutors for things they might only suspect you might have done without one iota of fact, truth or testimony from someone who could even know.

You can take that from someone who’s been raided four times without a shred of evidence in every case. If you have something the Just Us system sees as manna from heaving they’ll continue to try to take it and never get actual law get in the way. If you get on the FBI’s list, just disappear even if you have to take a fiscal bath even though you have done nothing wrong. Not even the very wealthy can fight the feds. My advice when you realize you’re on a list of any sort, flee, just disappear and start a new life before the “system” gets its hands on you.

This type of situation is ten times more likely to happen to a man than a woman. Women tend to disbelieve things until they’re actually charged and in jail and then they’ll(not all, just most I’ve seen)still try to put a spin on it that doesn’t work, not even for women. The old show The Fugitive would play out thousands of times a day in this country if people were only aware of what lay before them.

‘ Any time I see someone carrying openly in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
Why do you think that? Let’s carry your opinion to its logical conclusion:
‘ Any time I see someone speeding openly in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
‘ Any time I see someone protesting openly in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
‘ Any time I see someone disobeying the state openly in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
‘ Any time I see someone openly challenging the statis quo in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
‘ Any time I see someone praising the anarchist philosophy openly in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
‘ Any time I see someone ridiculing politicians and the oligarchy openly in public, I think to myself…..”there goes a stupid person.” ‘
Also; please define the open carry standard that you are ridiculing here. What if someone openly carries a rifle, shotgun, or bow? Is this person somehow less “stupid” than the person carrying a hand gun?
I suspect that the only reason you believe that brazenly carrying a handgun in public is so “stupid” is because people rarely have the balls to do this; which is due to the fact that our parents and grand parents were extremely loyal statists/clovers!
Use that right or lose it! I am too old to be starting fights with cops, so I asked a local deputy what would happen if I open carried publicly. First, he asked: “You mean like I am?” I replied: “Yes.” He said “nothing, so long as you aren’t an ex-con or committing a crime.” He also pointed out the fact that certain towns and cities in Missouri do have laws against open carry.
I highly recommend that people check out http://www.opencarry.org/maps/map-open-carry-of-a-properly-holstered-loaded-handgun/ You will learn that open carry is legal in the vast majority of states (but check the urban areas you intend to go to). Use your rights or lose them due to public ignorance! The public in your area should become used to seeing armed people walking amongst them! Take every opportunity they present you with to explain the importance of keeping that right.

“… we’ve allowed the government to create an alternate reality in which freedom is secondary to security, and the rights of the citizenry are less important than the authority of the government. This way lies madness.”

Come on over and be the stake that sticks up. See how long ya last.
Because that’s the problem. Government has the schools so it doesn’t matter if you’re brave enough to stand up, when you do, you stand alone and when they beat you down or kill you most everyone else around says you had it coming.

There’s the guy who shot a couple burglars in Ca. who’s in prison now, paying the burglars he shot. Real criminals get a bye(like cops)and somebody who means no harm and “might” be guilty of a victimless crime is executed on the spot.

I’m reminded of Joe Stampley and Moe Bandy’s Just Good ol Boys. Those days are over for sure.

A couple years back one of my old running buds reminded me of some of the stuff we used to pull and how we’d be dead or under the prison if we got caught now for those same “crimes”. He said he was telling some of the young people he knows one day about a bunch of the things we did, he said he even tried to tone it down and they didn’t believe him. He said they were all going “Naw, you didn’t do that, you couldn’t get away with that”. Yep, it’s changed that much. The younger generation would never consider doing some of the crap we did and we didn’t do anything to hurt people although we might have done some govt. property damage or just spent the night outrunning bunches of cops.

I completely support law and order, when the laws and orders are valid. However, as a libertarian I consider most, nearly all such laws and orders, to be just directives from the oligarchy.

In this issue, well documented here, I am especially disturbed by the sanctimonious description of the police as “Sworn Officers”. Swore to what ? My local sheriff responded by sending me a copy of the oath. There is some variation, State Police have a slightly different one from local police. But the main import is that they will “Support the Constitution”.

Nothing about “Protect and Defend”, and we know why.

Support the Constitution ? As in asking us to incriminate ourselves, “Do you know how fast you were going ?” Or, in the absence of any criminal event, “Show me your identification !”

This is all done to gain the authority, by intimidation, that they do not otherwise have.

In the process, the “Sworn Officer” illusion dies. So does the validity of their authority. Yet, as is so well illustrated here, NOTHING HAPPENS TO THE COP.

No amount of community policing will rectify this infringement, nor restore confidence in law enforcement, or its administration.

Besides the often overlooked correlation to the Nazi blood laws, we will all be Jews with tattoos.

I’m the future you will be able to report citizens in possession of illegal blood with your iPhone app.

Even your car will be able to turn you in for the heinous crime of possessing illegal blood (your own.)

What’s that? You might not be able to afford the cost of such an elaborate tattoo? No worries, your insurance provider will be more than happy to help.

After one of the SAFETY party’s candidates wins in November, we will all be be longing for the good old days when all one had to complain about was getting a ticket and the threat of an ass whopping. (Or when DWB only got you an ass whooping and a roadside digital exam.)

It’s a shame that we’re at this point. Though I sincerely believe this has been going on, much worse, for many years and is now only coming to light because everyone is carrying a video camera in their phone.

But here’s the thing that disgusts me the most: when I’ve been messed with or treated discourteously by police officers, the nonsense ends the moment I ask if they’d like to see my credentials and I hand over my attorney ID. And this doesn’t bother me because they immediately start behaving; it bothers me because they don’t feel the need to behave until they know they’re dealing with someone who they believe can cause repercussions if they don’t. Of course, it’s been years since I’ve had to do it, but still, it shouldn’t be necessary.

I got so accustomed to being armed when I was trucking I CC’d for decades when it wasn’t legal. The old carried by six, judged by 12 reasoning. If you’d been with me in some of the places I had to go you’d have been armed too, like some of the people I was armed for.

Go into a convenience store at 2 am in any big city and there’d be groups of blacks or in south Tx. Mexicans just waiting for some white guy. They weren’t so eager if they saw you get out of a truck.

One night in Galveston a bunch of us were on a little street down by the docks when a drunk ran into one of the trucks, ruined a fuel tank and whatnot. The guy called the cops. They got there about 10 am when all the rest of the cops were out. Back in the day, the cops would tell you to shoot first and call for a body pickup afterward…..or not.

Once we had “minority rights” then those minorities were free to hang out in numbers and wait on victims. Things didn’t always go as planned for them though. Some whitey’s were armed to the teeth and had no intention of being a victim of anybody. I became accustomed to sleeping with my hand wrapped around a Hi Power under the pillow. It was the reason workers used to get a trucker’s attention by stepping on the truck and then backing way off with their hands in front of them. Hey, we’re here, just wanted to let you know. Then the feds outlawed guns in commercial vehicles. The liberals needed some victims. Right after that happened there was a huge amount of violence on truckers.

Every time he has to enter a DOT scale house, he commits a crime and risks losing his guns. Where would you suggest he store them to avoid this “crime”?

Every time he picks up or drops off a load he enters private property, where “by law” he only needs to be warned once not to bring the gun on the property.

That is done if the owner has posted a sign that says no weapons allowed on that property.

That is the one and only warning that is required and from that point forward, any “innocent” and unaware gun owner can face criminal trespass while in possession of his otherwise legal firearm.

Almost everywhere, this is a felony which will strip your guns right out of their holster.

There are a lot of you out there, low effort or no effort “Factitarians” who seem to live for that moment when they get to spring out of their Jack In The Box like mind and say “You’re Wrong.”

This time, I get to play Factitarian. How do you like it?

The other villains here who don’t know they are such, are the “Propertarians.” They are the majority here who have it in their minds that they are not micro Authoritarian PTBs because they take full advantage of “the law” when it comes to their own property.

If you post signs such as “no weapons” or “no trespassing” on your property without a valid NAP reason. (You’re old and weak. You have kids or a pacifist wife.) Then you’re an authoritarian asshole and not a true libertarian.

The real valid law is out there, but you have to look for it. It’s not written in a book filled with symbols. Watch how the other mammals treat each other. Watch how non-asshole, non-cucked humans treat each other. That’s the natural law that you should follow so this planet stops being an an Assholian Dystopia.

I agree with you about the bullshit laws, but feel free to peruse the Federal Motor Carrier regulations to prove me wrong about whether or not it is “illegal” for a CDL holder to have a firearm in his commercial vehicle.

I believe there is a way around all the bullshit if you can legally carry a non-firearm that will still shoot shot of some sort, the old cap and ball “antique”. For felons in Tx., you can’t even carry one of those off your property. How the hell you legally buy it and then get it home is another can of worms. Yes, you can buy one if you’re a felon. No, you can’t possess it except on your property. WTF do you think the Just Us system picks and chooses virtually everything. If people were charged by an actual federal crime under federal law Hitlery Clinton would be on death row waiting hanging for treason.

PtB, I hadn’t seen it but nothing surprises me any longer. If you click on the “American Truckers” link you see even worse things coming for company drivers. Without the huge influx of yankees Texas has endured since RR’s reign of terror, the Secession movement would have already happened. I’m not sure it won’t anyway and I’ll support it wholeheartedly.

Interestingly enough, Justice Scalia apparently stated that secession wasn’t legal. (Per Texas Tribune article I saw online.)
Apparently, the good (dead) Justice doesn’t know that Texas CAN secede (in their constitution).
Also, he apparently doesn’t understand contract law. If one party unilaterally changes the terms of the contract, the contract is VOIDED. It’s as if there WAS no contract.
Which is what happened in 1861, BTW.

And is what has been done to We, The People, many times. We didn’t notice the transition from Republic to Empire. I’m guessing the Romans didn’t, either.
And I’m guessing Germans didn’t understand how Weimar became Nazi, either…

Any contract that is alterable by only one party is in fact created under false pretenses, or “in bad faith,” and is therefore not a binding contract.
We should start the process of unbinding ASAP… (But let me lead…)

“Without the huge influx of yankees Texas has endured since RR’s reign of terror, the Secession movement would have already happened. I’m not sure it won’t anyway and I’ll support it wholeheartedly.”

Even with all the baggage the Yankees dragged in with them? I tell you, I am getting nervous about whether Texas could pull it off and not wind up a lot like the current Feds.

I’m a DP from the north, myself. Broke through the lines in 1968. But I have met an awful lot of “Yankees” born south of the M/D Line. And it isn’t “Yankee Ingenuity” I mean, it is “Yankee Meddlin'”, just dressed in ‘y’alls” and “fixin’ toos”.

It is like a disease. Once in an area, it spreads like the plague. Saw some of it in Texas, too. I think secession in most locations now will also require a bit of revolution, too. And that gets real messy.

“It is bad PR for all gun owners / carriers because it projects an aura of belligerence.”

Upon what basis do you assert that open carry by any one individual is a bad public relations move for ALL gun owners?

Who comprises the public?

Is the public exclusively the domain of cop-fellating Clovers?

Is the public exclusively the domain of Caesar’s cheerleaders?

Is the public exclusively the domain of those who feel the BERN?

Is the public exclusively the domain of those who become lachrymose during fly-overs?

Is the public exclusively the domain of those who have “worked” their entire adult life in the public sector?

Is the public exclusively the domain of those who belong to the “see something, say something” sorority?

Is the public exclusively the domain of those who insist that all individual rights are subject to reasonable regulation?

Is the public exclusively comprised of individuals who drop a deuce in their Depends upon observing another openly carrying?

That people openly carry is good, if for nothing else, because (1) “the public” becomes more aware of how their heroes conduct themselves vis-à-vis those who are not abashed to brandish their rights and (2) more and more seeds of liberty are being planted by the dissemination of such encounters yielding more and more trees of liberty.

No doubt much of what you write is practical – but, ultimately, submissive to the state.

“Is bad PR for all gun owners/carriers because it projects an aura of belligerence.”
Well it’s definitely true that those who ‘openly carry’ while wearing a gunvermin costume project an aura of belligerence.

“Serves as a “shoot me first” sign to any armed criminals preparing to commit a violent crime.” Probably true if you are alone, or the lone one openly armed. Much less likely if you are in a group of ‘open carriers.’

With or without a badge it’s not wise to let everybody know who to shoot. If someone passes you by when they’re going to shoot someone then you’ve just gained the advantage and can pop them in the back of the head when they make their move. It’s especially advantageous when dealing with those bullet-resistant vests…..avoid a body shot.

But I agree with Liberty Mike and Skunkbear. I think the argument that “Open carry makes a bad impression on the public” is a rather craven argument.

I’m a member of the public, and I can honestly say that open carry by mere mundanes makes a very good impression on me. It reasserts the fundamental truth that the right to self-defense is not restricted to Obama with his SS bodyguards.

bevin, I agree with you but I have always liked to play things close to the vest. It’s like that proverbial box of chocolates. It not only cuts down on illegal crime, it keeps the badged criminals guessing too.

Armed robbery where no signs point out everyone is disarmed has dropped like a rock where CC is “allowed”…and “allowed” is the part that sticks in my craw.

bevin, there are times when OC can deter would be attackers, muggers, etc. You see people appear in the dark when you’re doing something like fueling and there’s only you at the location. That would be a time when the old nickel plated gun stuck on your side would serve you well…..or one on each side.

During the LA riots, Korean shopkeepers open carried, and by doing so discouraged looters from even thinking about looting their stores. Concealed carry in such a context would offer no advantage. It all depends.

bevin, I’m certainly not against OC. I’d like to see the whole population going about their business OC. I’d bet this would deter the proletariat bullies from jacking with people minding their own business. Imagine a crowd of OC gathering around the bullies with badges just screaming shit at someone for nothing. We’d become a much more civil society…….almost overnight. Imagine hearing 20 hammers being pulled back all around you. Bullies aren’t up to that and bullies definitely know when they’re outgunned. It does my old heart good just to think about it.

“The Old West was like that.”
Yes, I’m convinced that a lot of the ‘tales’ of the Old West are just that, fairy tales. But a man’s guns were tools. He had a revolver on his hip and a rifle on his saddle. Someone w/o a gun would have been looked at askance.

In Tennessee, a permit is required to either open or conceal carry. I am in the process of obtaining a permit. Once I receive it, I plan to open carry as much as possible. I have already obtained a black hawk serpa belt holster that retains the pistol with a trigger latch. Why open carry? One, the pistol I have is not conducive to concealed carry unless I am wearing a coat of some sort. I can wear a long polo shirt and cover it but then the bulge would still give the carry away. Two, drawing the pistol from under a long polo shirt would take more than 3 seconds. I prefer not taking that long to get the pistol out.

I do want to address one statement made earlier.
“Serves as a “shoot me first” sign to any armed criminals preparing to commit a violent crime.” I live in a state that borders Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Virginia & North Carolina. All open carry states. It is rare to hear of any criminal shooting a person openly carrying before the actual action they planned is carried out. Rather, I believe any criminal that sees a person carrying delays their act until the threat of getting shot is gone. As a matter of fact, I am 63 been living in Tennessee since 1982 and have not ever heard of any person that openly carried being shot, in any of the surrounding states, while a crime was in progress. I am not saying it hasn’t happened, just that I’ve not seen it reported. If you have stats that illustrate the “shoot me first” tenant I’d like to see them. Lastly, most statist goons open carry yet that doesn’t invite the “shoot me first” crowd. Why? Don’t hand me the goons have more guns theory either. I don’t buy that. Criminals rarely think about crap like that. Criminals mostly think will I get killed if I do X crime?

The instructor of the carry permit class stated it was better to conceal carry and he gave an illustration of an incident that occurred in Wisconsin. However, I thought it hypocritical seeing as he and every person working at the range open carries, on and off the range’s premises.

Personally, I think some people get to much exposure to television and movies and confuse the crap they see there with what actually happens in the real world.

” If you have stats that illustrate the “shoot me first” tenant I’d like to see them. Lastly, most statist goons open carry yet that doesn’t invite the “shoot me first” crowd. Why? Don’t hand me the goons have more guns theory either. I don’t buy that. Criminals rarely think about crap like that. Criminals mostly think will I get killed if I do X crime?”
The two pieces of your comment are identical, actually – as the badged enforcers become indistinguishable from criminals.
They are basically wondering, “If I commit X crime, will I get killed?”
That’s the COPS asking, mind.
Yet no one attacks the police station, a la “Terminator.” For comparison, look at the film, “Lethal Weapon.” First one, when Danny Glover’s character is meeting his new partner, Mel Gibson’s character. Played off as comedy then – now it’s de rigeur for harassing anyone they feel like. “GUN!” and tackle and assault…

Turns out it’s a colostomy bag….

Etc.

You’ll note the pigs are always outnumbering the “civilians,” right? Show of force, “Shock and Awe.” All a circus show to these cunts.
You notice that a call about open carry in a state where open carry is legal had 6 responders, carrying military-grade weaponry we can’t even buy? You know there are bills in the works to make owning such armor a felony?

Why should we submit to them? 1984 was written not even as a warning, but a testament to WHAT HAD HAPPENED. It’s just becoming clearer….

Next:
“Personally, I think some people get to much exposure to television and movies and confuse the crap they see there with what actually happens in the real world.”

Yeah – that’s how most of our laws are created. It’s not dissimilar to the 80s cartoons: create a cheap animated kids’ show, sell toys. Separate the hard-working adult from their money….

Same here. Can’t get nunchaku (nun-chucks) in MA. Nor sais, nor swords, mostly. A staff is an illegal weapon. Pepper spray was licensed until recently.
Tasers and such have just been sent back for review, too. Saps, daggers, knives, brass knuckles, all illegal. Batons, too.
But after the marathon bombing, the cops were walking around downtown with fucking MP5s. (Submachine guns.)

These tactics are WAR. No one understands this.
but who wins from (google the term) “eternal revolution”? Not us! No society can stand that.

But the masters? They benefit from the divide and conquer as well as the monopoly on deadly force.
We are slaves, unless and until we resist them forcibly.

I agree with you Jean. It has been illegal to possess brass knuckles, switch blade knives, sawed off shotguns, and knives with longer than 4 inch blades in Missouri since at least my teenage years nearly 40 years ago. Cops carried batons back then and anyone could carry a softball bat around. Both of those devices could inflict far more damage than brass knuckles. Why target switch blade knives or knives with a longer than 4 inch blade? Because switch blades click? Are both of the forbidden knives somehow sharper than other knives, swords, or machetes? Is a blade that is 3 15/16th inch long really safer than one with a 4 inch blade? Do the arbitrary lawmakers really believe that it takes a 4 inch or longer knife blade to penetrate someones heart, gut, or lungs? Sawed off shotguns are only somewhat practical in extreme close quarters. An easily maneuvered pistol is far more practical in that situation. Why reduce the homeowners choices in defensive weapons? A shotgun loaded with buckshot or bird shot does spray pellets somewhat; but is firing a revolver 5 or 6 times and missing the intended target really safer for the potential family member on the other side of the wall?
I would also agree with you Jean that it is more important to target all of the oligarchy than it is to target politicians if they start a war against the tax slaves. The politicians and the ruling bureaucrats should be secondary targets.

(Note the * means it’s TECHNICALLY legal, IF you bribe the Beast enough, and subject to further regulations. E.G., you can get a silencer if you pay a few hundred dollars for a “Tax Stamp”…. And select-fire weapons and machine guns have to be built prior to 1975 or some-such, and there are several hundred dollars of taxes there, too. Same with SBRs and sawed-off shotguns.)

Most people get their “facts” from video games and movies. I admit it’s an AWESOME effect in Gears of War to use the sawed-ff shotgun, and kill two or three enemies with one shot. They’re close enough to trim your pubic hair…. then they vanish in a red mist.
At 5 feet out, you can’t stop them with the sawed-off…

About THE most realistic depiction I can think of, and it’s pretty bad. But the cop shows (E.G. chips, TJ Hooker, Miami Vice, even things like A-Team and Airwolf and Knightrider, etc, etc, etc.) – they show the GUN as the deadly issue (when expedient to the story.) Somehow, the first time you pick up a gun, you’re Annie Oakley or Audi Murphey…. DEAD ON accurate. Could be a full-auto uzi pistol, there’s no jiggle, wiggle, recoil, anything – every bullet hits… Every shot is a kill.
And that’s all these imbecile sheep know. No different from Nixon’s DECISION that cars get best gas mileage at 55…
How long before they DECIDE that homosexual relationships are “more healthy” for humans….? Same logic applies!

Silencers make guns silent, after all. (Just like mufflers on cars.)
Daggers are only useful for assassinations.
Brass knuckles, saps, blackjacks, knives, all are only useful for murderers and thieves…. Only used as ambush weapons to attack “innocents.”
And same for flails, nunchaku, chains, shuriken, mace (pepper spray), tasers, etc. All “deadly weapons of assassination.”

There is no way to perform a brain transplant on these idiots – no tweezers small enough. Better to kill them, it prevents breeding.

So you know the stupidity levels are deadly:
In NJ?
You can be ARRESTED for having a baseball bat without a ball and glove.
You need a PERMIT to buy a paintball gun. To buy PAINTBALLS (ammo).

Part of the problem, everywhere, is that…. People who don’t accept “the rules” break the rules anyway. Stupid laws on Concealed Carry? Ignore them. Better judged than carried, if you will. Stupid laws on size of soda? Find a way around it (bring your own container, and pay the clerk for two 20-oz sodas. Assuming they’ll accept they have to pay…)

But those same laws, obeyed by the rest of us (suckers), hampers our normal life.
The results are predictable – we get screwed until we push back, then TPTB see _US_ as the problem. Not the people breaking the laws originally. They play the politics, ans it’s all about how “racis'” the cops are, or how The Man is keepin’ them down…
Because they THINK they are smarter than everyone, but they’re barely evolved over chimpanzees. (Not meant to target blacks, BTW. Just referring to the normal, stupid, ignorant, rabble.) They THINK they’re cheating the system, but the System – mostly run by those slightly smarter than the knuckle-draggers – fights back, passing more idiot laws – which we, being more orderly (Meaning, “Ordered”, in the old sense; an “ordered Militia”; disciplined, civilized) follow… We’re NOT looking to cheat everyone, beat everyone, PROVE we’re “Better” than everyone else.
So we get caught with tons of minor things (parking tickets, speeding, a garden in our front yard)… While the miscreants are mostly unnoticed (no money to extract, turn a blind eye), and the career criminals are elected into higher office.
We just want to go about our lives… But the miscreants can be dangerous, so when we get pulled over (we have money) – they deem us a Threat! Because Miscreants might be armed.
Don’t know if you’ve heard, more than one person has crossed the borders of NJ only to be harassed by pigs – legal gun owners detained and harassed because they’ve got a legal gun – AT HOME, outside the state, mind. Or, in one case, a woman from PA crossed into NJ, and when asked by the cop if she had a gun (her legally owned and licensed gun), she was stupid enough to say yes. Got arrested and is being charged as a felon… She was in NJ, not PA, so she was a dangerous miscreant, right?
New York is famous for charging people with owning “gravity knives” – which has come mean any knife which can be flipped open with one hand. Like any Spyderco lockback, or Buck knife, or (whatever). “Stop and frisk” = “Papers, please!” But as long as it’s only “those niggers over there – not the Good, White, Folk.” – no one cares. Until it affects them good white folk too…

I’m done playing by their rules. Haven’t carried a blade in years (lost my pocketknife), but I’m about ready to start carrying anything and everything I can. A .50 DEagle would be LOTS of fun… But I’m thinking a 9 might be more practical. Per the instructor at Sig, it’s the most common round. That means I can find lots of ammo around… And it fits a Broom Handle Luger…. 😀

Last week I saw one of the staff walking down the street. I did a double take, just because most of us aren’t used to seeing firearms displayed prominently (especially nickel plated .38 in a tooled leather belt with a leg strap -hey, it was a long traffic light). But knowing that the somewhat petite woman would have no problem defending herself got me thinking about why Hillary is so against guns. Then I realized old Bill would have been shot several times by now.

These cops whine about “officer safety” and they harass openly armed people. This would imply they know for a fact that there is little or no threat to their safety. If the cop thought there was why provoke an incident? Turn nothing into something? Why always escalate. There is practically no danger to cops until cops create it for their own purposes.

Same with getting hit on the side of road while issuing tickets. The cops created the very dangers they complain about for their own purposes. War on some drugs, again, the danger comes from the illegality of a personal vice and the enforcement there of.

A free society would be much safer for police, but is that desire? Of course not. They want to be occupiers. Controllers. Enforcers. They create their own dangers 99 times out of 100.

If it is ‘suspicious’ just to walk around with a pistol on one’s hip, isn’t it even more suspicious to do so while wearing a costume?
As for knowing the law, the courts will tell one of us, contrary to mens rea, that ignorance of the law is no excuse. How much less of an excuse should it be for someone who is supposedly paid to do so?

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Eric started out writing about cars for mainstream media outlets such as The Washington Times, Detroit News and Free Press, Investors Business Daily, The American Spectator, National Review, The Chicago Tribune and Wall Street Journal.