Sub is in a good place now because they tuned the dmg to be competitive with assas and combat.

Uh, not sure I agree sub is in a good place (talking pve anyway)... It has competitive single target damage, but not really competitive on multi target which is a big deal seeing as how the number of truly ST fights is really, really low. Sub also has to suffer through positional requirements which is a big QoL issue for which they get absolutely no compensation.

I was actually thinking about some similar changes the other day and i like most of your ideas. Here's some other ideas that i'm just throwing out there. Some are really wild and probably unrealistic but it's all under the assumption that we'll have the kind of big makeover op is talking about:

Overall: Combo points as a player buff. I know gc has commented on it but it simply makes more sense.

Assa:

-Spec idea: Burst damage and steady poison dps and debuffs.

-No more Snd/rupture rotation

-Bring back cold blood in some form! Perhaps a new kind of finishing move or a cd with charges or something. I don't care, i just want it back.

-Both lethal and nonlethal poisons unique to assa. Maybe even make poisons active abilities? Either in some kind of combination with shiv or by themselves. For example if there's a caster add in a raid you could just mind numb him directly without applying the poison first. Or use it to build up deadly stacks in your rotation. No more autoattacks proccing poisons. Would give more flexibility and give the spec a better debuffing niche.

-This could give envenom a more distinct role as the "instant poison proccer".

-Dispatch, vendetta, and venomous wounds needs to be changed, but i'm not sure how yet.

-New abilities, like the poison aoe op was talking about (instead of FoK which should be more of a combat spell).

-Killing spree: Remove cooldown and make it drain energy. That way it's good burst damage but can hurt your long term dps since it doesnt generate cps. Feels more logical to get tired instead of energized after the ability aswell.

-Snd unique to the spec. Maybe make the duration alot shorter so it's actually a challenge to maintain? Like 10-15 sec duration? Double attacks instead of haste like the op is suggesting is interesting, and there could be other ways too.

-More distinct defensive abilities, both active and passive.

-No more poisons/rupture.

-Restless blades is one of the coolest new things about combat imo. Could be buffed and tied to recuperate instead of current mechanics though. First of all it makes sense to get some adrenaline back after recuperating. Second it gives the combat rotation some "passive" selfhealing and third it would only be useful when the fight lasts longer than the cooldowns, ie raid bosses.

-Change revealing strike to something remotely interesting.

Sub:

-Spec idea: Stealth, illusion, bleeds and traps.

-Give sub a couple of traps. Alot of unexplored opportunities here.

-No more Snd/poisons.

-Rupture would need to be changed into something interesting if it's gonna be more of a core spell for sub.

-New sub cleave: Creates a shadow copy of yourself that follows a different target and performs the same spells you do. Combination of old blade flurry and DKs dancing rune weapon.

-Distract also applies the find weakness debuff.

In general i've always felt that the concepts of assa/sub has been very similar and another idea would be to merge the two into one spec and introducing a new third spec instead. The same is true for hunters with MM/survival i think. Hopefully blizzard won't introduce another new class in WoD so that would give them the opportunity to rework several of the existing classes instead.

I was actually thinking about some similar changes the other day and i like most of your ideas. Here's some other ideas that i'm just throwing out there. Some are really wild and probably unrealistic but it's all under the assumption that we'll have the kind of big makeover op is talking about:

Overall: Combo points as a player buff. I know gc has commented on it but it simply makes more sense.

Assa:

-Spec idea: Burst damage and steady poison dps and debuffs.

-No more Snd/rupture rotation

-Bring back cold blood in some form! Perhaps a new kind of finishing move or a cd with charges or something. I don't care, i just want it back.

-Both lethal and nonlethal poisons unique to assa. Maybe even make poisons active abilities? Either in some kind of combination with shiv or by themselves. For example if there's a caster add in a raid you could just mind numb him directly without applying the poison first. Or use it to build up deadly stacks in your rotation. No more autoattacks proccing poisons. Would give more flexibility and give the spec a better debuffing niche.

-This could give envenom a more distinct role as the "instant poison proccer".

-Dispatch, vendetta, and venomous wounds needs to be changed, but i'm not sure how yet.

-New abilities, like the poison aoe op was talking about (instead of FoK which should be more of a combat spell).

-Killing spree: Remove cooldown and make it drain energy. That way it's good burst damage but can hurt your long term dps since it doesnt generate cps. Feels more logical to get tired instead of energized after the ability aswell.

-Snd unique to the spec. Maybe make the duration alot shorter so it's actually a challenge to maintain? Like 10-15 sec duration? Double attacks instead of haste like the op is suggesting is interesting, and there could be other ways too.

-More distinct defensive abilities, both active and passive.

-No more poisons/rupture.

-Restless blades is one of the coolest new things about combat imo. Could be buffed and tied to recuperate instead of current mechanics though. First of all it makes sense to get some adrenaline back after recuperating. Second it gives the combat rotation some "passive" selfhealing and third it would only be useful when the fight lasts longer than the cooldowns, ie raid bosses.

-Change revealing strike to something remotely interesting.

Sub:

-Spec idea: Stealth, illusion, bleeds and traps.

-Give sub a couple of traps. Alot of unexplored opportunities here.

-No more Snd/poisons.

-Rupture would need to be changed into something interesting if it's gonna be more of a core spell for sub.

-New sub cleave: Creates a shadow copy of yourself that follows a different target and performs the same spells you do. Combination of old blade flurry and DKs dancing rune weapon.

-Distract also applies the find weakness debuff.

In general i've always felt that the concepts of assa/sub has been very similar and another idea would be to merge the two into one spec and introducing a new third spec instead. The same is true for hunters with MM/survival i think. Hopefully blizzard won't introduce another new class in WoD so that would give them the opportunity to rework several of the existing classes instead.

Well so far from blizzcon nothing major has happened.

Ok so we got a copy paste of blood death knights dancing rune weapon, Which actually sounds awfully boring. Basically, they gave us pets for fucks sake. Worst decision ever in my opinion.

Death from above is just a fancy crimson tempest. Yes it sounds fun but we know that in practise it doesn't work out, as aoe finishers are quite useless. The last thing we needed was "more" finishing moves, we needed our existing ones reworked. If they had have come out and send "you we're replacing crimson tempest with death from above" I'd be somewhat content, but at the moment, I'm not.

"master of the basics" generates combo points from auto attack criticals. Sounds like an idea to make haste more appealing. I want cold blood back too, even if it was something like "for the next 10 seconds auto attacks generate combo points".

I can see that just screwing everything over though: rogues will stack crit, auto attack, and spam finishers especially during bloodlust. It just sounds like HAT spec 2.0.

That's only the new talents though. Doesn't have anything to do with a potential revamp, and will probably change a thousand times before release anyway. I definitely hope they will show some big changes to the mechanics of several classes though. Since we seem to have no new class/race incoming they should focus on improving what's not working atm. The lack of information is probably the most frustrating thing atm, especially for those of us that don't want to spend a million $ on the stream.

I do agree more damage has to come from rogue burst abilities like Eviscerate/Envenom and LESS from Poisons/Bleeds/Auto-attacks.

That can be changed if deadly poison/lethal poison was assassinations only and the poison restrictions were removed, possibly allowing duplicate poison application or introducing a second lethal poison again such as returning instant poison - however I do understand their reasoning for removing it. While I am please ok with poisons being in the spell book, I am a little disappointed we can no longer choose where to apply poisons, the current model feels less interactive.

Easy/simple/boring rotations can have their charm and they allow you to focus more on the environment rather than your rotation - sometimes it can feel like youre staring at the control rather than the tv to put it in terms of a console game.

I'm not against combat having deep wounds like mechanics, so long as its done in a way that does not feel like it is a copy paste of deep wounds. I think combat needs more deflection like mechanics, something like the old "unfair advantage" we had in wotlk was enjoyable to use although not necessarily potent, it felt like you were out smarting an opponent. I like facing melee classes, it made evasion more dangerous, and combat should emphasis that.

I think the real niche of the rogue class is, and should be, abitiies that can be used in creative ways for offensive and defensive potential. Things like kidneyshot and smoke bomb are great examples, as is shadowstep. We just need a few more exciting tools like that.

I also think slice and dice should be lowered, be combat only, and have some +dodge added to it. 20% increased attack speed and dodge chance sounds potent and interesting.

I think it's time recuperate gets changed/removed. Although useful, It just doesn't feel exciting or fit the class. It has no offensive potential and of sacrifices too much damage. Leeching poison is much more exciting and should be expanded upon further, I don't think it deserves to be a talent. I never realised how potent paralysing poison was until I'd messed around in arena and tried to stop someone running away, it's a must have for training someone.

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Originally Posted by Kurast

That's only the new talents though. Doesn't have anything to do with a potential revamp, and will probably change a thousand times before release anyway. I definitely hope they will show some big changes to the mechanics of several classes though. Since we seem to have no new class/race incoming they should focus on improving what's not working atm. The lack of information is probably the most frustrating thing atm, especially for those of us that don't want to spend a million $ on the stream.

At the time of writing, I didn't realise they were talent options. That does make a lot more sense now.

I can't see why everyone is so excited about "death from above" unless it is an eviscerate, free cleave, and shadowstep all in one. I don't think we will see a shadowstep finisher go live unless it certainly required 5 combo points or had a rediculously high energy cost. It just sounds like it can be abused and we will be too mobile.

I would be quite happy if "death from above" replaced eviscerate and was Subulety only however. If it required 5 combo points, it could still be balanced.

Personally I really like the idea of making Rogue specs more distinct.

I also really like the concept of 'minor mysticism' this was mentioned in the vanilla class description if anyone is wondering. To my mind this would be ideal for redesigning Subtlety. Rogues 'shadow' abilities like Cloak of Shadows, Shadowstep and Shadow Blades are all doing supernatural things; not quite magic, maybe closer to psionics. Mind over matter. I can easily imagine Rogues using mind expanding drugs, meditating and training in obscure shadowy techniques.

The Assassin concept of poisoner is a great one and should be expanded upon; they should rely on shortblades and throwing weapons to deliver toxins or other chemicals to weaken or harm their foes.

Combat is the swashbuckler, eschewing stealth and trickery for bravado and martial skill. I like concept of a slightly defensive slant, taking advantage of dodges and parries. Turning enemy blades and cutting or reflecting spells.

I imagine then that Subtlety Rogues use Stealth, movement (such as Shadowstep and Killing Spree, teleports and jumps) and shadow damage to confuse and Ambush their victims. Creating shadowy images, disappearing and reappearing from sight and moving short distances in an instant. They could deal shadow damage to bypass armour and land powerful strikes like Ambush, making less attacks than the other specs but doing more per strike.

Assassination Rogues use poisons thrown in bottles or coated on blades, they also use stealth but sacrifice movement, instead gaining some ranged projection of their mixtures. Basically just an expansion of how they play now but with emphasis on debuffing the enemy and using poisons in smarter ways (bombs and bottles, darts, blades, caltrops etc) also no reason to not use oils or acid or other chemicals.

Combat Rogues are masters of blades, using speed and agility rather than brute strength. They excel at weaving through combat avoiding damage and landing swift, precise blows. A focus on reactive abilities and bleeds could work. Sort of like Protection Warrior but without the damage mitigation. Plenty of skills to react with, sideswipe if you dodge, riposte if you parry and retaliate if you are crit for example.

The class design would feature core abilities for each spec that form a PvE rotation and then a set of more situational skills on top of those for PvP. I'd do away with Preparation, make use of charges on some skills instead. There would be a few shared skills that define the class like Sprint, Evasion and Vanish. There's so much potential here to make a class with plenty of flavour, it's amazing Blizzard has rarely made the effort to do it.

As for the magic suggestion I had (which you're welcome to disagree with) I didn't pick the wrong class, the class I want doesn't necessarily exist. The emphasis has to be on a stealth and duel wielding, but instead of using poisons and bleeds, it utilises fire to ignite and burn enemies within melee range. Why? Because he's a cruel devious little bastard who wants an unfair advantage.

Yes, I get what you're saying that rogues are not completely magical, nor should they ever be spell casters or ranged dps. What I was just suggesting that it would be interesting to play a rogue which was cable of he occasional arcane/shadow/fire finishing move or to set fire to his weapons during combat, like a nightblade from rift.

No. We have enough fire in the game. Rogues are unique with poisons on their blades. And it screams Rogue to a t. Poisons and bleeds are as much part of the class as stealth is. If you want fire, play an enhancement shaman.

Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

I prefer how rogues are now. Im actually happy with SnD becoming passive for assassination. Will make room on my bars for Death from Above if it happens to be an ability i like.

I don't understand the hype about DFA. It's just a crap crimson tempest, which was already a useless ability. Why are you excited about slice and dice? It's already passive basicallt because it's constantly refreshed for assassinations. The ony thing they are doing is giving them 40% haste as a bandage for sucky active damage is how it feels.

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Originally Posted by Last Starfighter

No. We have enough fire in the game. Rogues are unique with poisons on their blades. And it screams Rogue to a t. Poisons and bleeds are as much part of the class as stealth is. If you want fire, play an enhancement shaman.

No. An enhancement shaman isn't a rogue. Besides, it's not just fire, it's arcane and shadow too. Nightblades are rogues who use their own imitative to extend their knowledge to utilise arcane, shadow, and fire magic, not because of tradition, but because they know it is potent and they're just looking for better/different ways to kill.

That's fine if you think ts boring and if you don't like the spec, you shouldn't be forced to play it.

Part of the complaint here is that all specs feel the same to play. In its current state, I hate the high passive damage of assassinations and rogues in general. I don't want "more" slice and dice, I hate the ability. I might even consider playing a hunter now they have stealth and the option to not use a pet.

Yeah... I dunno about that. Assassination is the spec its most likely going to be quite a bit worse for. The damage of your other finishers will scale with your mastery. DfA will not.

They should probably find an alternative to DfA on the 100 talents and replace CT with that. Although Crimsom Tempest isn't a bad name per say, but we need more visual flare and an AoE that we might not even use is perhaps not the place to put it.

They should probably find an alternative to DfA on the 100 talents and replace CT with that. Although Crimsom Tempest isn't a bad name per say, but we need more visual flare and an AoE that we might not even use is perhaps not the place to put it.

What about making DfA replaced eviscerate for the Subulety tree and had no cooldown? That could make it more fun and accessible. In its current suggestion I think DfA will end up like the old shiv, not really fitting in anywhere but having situational uses.

- Merging subtlety into the assassinations tree, so we have an assassin that jumps from the shadows with daggers, then utilises poisons (and possibly bleeds, yes I know might that contradict what's I said earlier).

- I also like the idea of a rogue that utlises magic in the firm of a fire/pyromaniac or arcane/shadow melee damage rogue, and whilst this could fit the rogue class, it doesn't necessarily fit into any talent tree yet.

The free subtlety tree could be used to design a "minor mysterism" tree that utilises arcane, shadow, or fire magic on their weapons to penetrate armour and have greater ranged capability.

I think that this is actually a FANTASTIC idea. Hopefully both the developers as well as the wow community would be open to this radical of a change. First, I love the idea of merging sub and assassin together - their overall feel has always been kind of like a "ninja" type rogue, and even though the spells they use and rotations are different, the overall feel seems the same. (With combat being the swashbuckling/fencer type of swordsman rogue).

The third open tree would then be free to be something almost exactly like you proposed. And there is even a great model to base it on: The Nightblade.

The Nightblade class is available under the Rogue calling. Possessing deadly agility and mastery of the blade, the Nightblade can also draw upon the planar magics of fire and death to deal doom in a variety of ways. Favoring light armor, their ability to stalk and quickly eliminate their adversaries means the unfortunate quarry rarely has the chance to defend, let alone counterattack.

(death = shadow magic in rift).

So basically, you have a rogue using fire and shadow magic. Your weapon enchants would similarly be fire and shadow. To wit:

Ebon Blades
Instant
Grants weapon ability attacks a 30% chance to deal an additional 113 Death damage and debuffs the enemy, causing them to take 5% more damage, per stack, from the Rogue. Max 3 stacks. Lasts 1h.

And all the CP builders and finishers would also be completely fire and shadow based as well - giving a completely un-shared skillset of DPS moves.

Note: I played rift for a time, really liked how they did rogues and warriors, hated mages which is partly why I stopped playing. Nightblade was super fun, they had a couple of short ranged attacks as well along the lines of enchanted dagger throws.

This would be a freakin awesome idea. Kudos to the OP for thinking outside the box... let's hope someone listens to you.

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And while they're at it, they can also follow the excellent example of RIFT and make CP's appear on you, not your target. So much more fun that way.