Bush is a 1,000 yard back with ability to run routes and stretch defenses. He had 8 touchdowns this year and we barely scratched the surface of what he's capable of in the passing game. I think he's definitely worth giving 3 years $15M.

Not with Lamar Miller behind him. 28 Yr old. 2 Yr deal at best.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Fasano made $3.6M in 2012. He's hands down our best tightend. He had 5 touchdowns this year, more than our entire receiver corps. I think he's worth between $3-$4M easily.

Would rather take that 4 million with a little more & signed a pass catching TE. I like Fasano, but he is what he is. A good backup TE.

wkloiber13 wrote:

With regards to Hartline, how much do you think a $1,000 yard receiver gets paid?

1 Td. Signing Hartline to 6 million to not be the No. 1 Wr is asinine. Being the best of a bad lot, doesn't mean you are good. Hartline put up 1000 yds because Miami had no one else to throw to down the field. He wins out on being the only option.

Why do you want to resign all the receiver from a poor corp? Need to upgrade.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Again, with regard to Pouncey. He's probably the best center in the AFC. Don't wait for him to become a $8M a season center.

What makes you think he isn't already?

wkloiber13 wrote:

Also, since Long is now gone, who now becomes the leader of that offensive line??? Pouncey, that's who. The guy is extremely important to this offense. I'd love to see us give him a three years extension and pay him around $4-5M a year for the next five or six years.

People have been speculating that we might have to franchise Smith. While I doubt that happens, I think Smith will get around $6M a year based on the position he plays and because of his size. I know it sounds high, but cornerback is a highly coveted position. At 6'3" Sean Smith will get $6M+ from somebody.

We're getting somewhere. You said $7-$8 mil, which is absurd.

Quote:

Also, I'm not an expert, but wouldn't we be penalized for cutting guys like Marshall and Carpenter? I know we have an out in Patterson's contract, but the rest would ding us as well as leave us with a need to fill an open slot.

The savings will be far greater than the dead cap hit.

$7M a season for a veteran free agent cornerback isn't absurd. All it takes is one team that is strapped for help at CB and he's as good as gone. Then we're left with no starting corners on our roster. We're strapped in our secondary, Smith and his agent know this. While I agree that $7-8M is overpaying. Sometimes teams have to overpay a little. I think $5M a season is a perfect deal for Smith. But my gut tells me we'll wind up paying $6-8M depending on what the free agent market dictates.

We might save money by cutting guys, but won't that just leave us with more holes in our roster???

Basically does not mean same. Not signed is not signed. He was well within his rights to sit out until the season.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Any team that wanted to put up a 1st round pick could have had him. But they didn't. It's because there are still question marks surround this kid and the fact that he's indicated he wants something close to what Vincent Jackson is making makes me nervous.

He should get what VJ got as a FA. No team is going to trade a 1st, plus pay big money.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Wallace is on IR right now with a hip injury. While he is younger, and traditionally healthier than Jennings, he's no more productive and less talented in my opinion. I think Jennings is less of a gamble considering how well our staff knows him.

The staff knowing him has no bearing on his physical ability to stay healthy. Not a fan of cronyism.

How many times have coaches brought in former players & they produce like they did back in the day?

Bush is a 1,000 yard back with ability to run routes and stretch defenses. He had 8 touchdowns this year and we barely scratched the surface of what he's capable of in the passing game. I think he's definitely worth giving 3 years $15M.

Not with Lamar Miller behind him. 28 Yr old. 2 Yr deal at best.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Fasano made $3.6M in 2012. He's hands down our best tightend. He had 5 touchdowns this year, more than our entire receiver corps. I think he's worth between $3-$4M easily.

Would rather take that 4 million with a little more & signed a pass catching TE. I like Fasano, but he is what he is. A good backup TE.

wkloiber13 wrote:

With regards to Hartline, how much do you think a $1,000 yard receiver gets paid?

1 Td. Signing Hartline to 6 million to not be the No. 1 Wr is asinine. Being the best of a bad lot, doesn't mean you are good. Hartline put up 1000 yds because Miami had no one else to throw to down the field. He wins out on being the only option.

Why do you want to resign all the receiver from a poor corp? Need to upgrade.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Again, with regard to Pouncey. He's probably the best center in the AFC. Don't wait for him to become a $8M a season center.

What makes you think he isn't already?

wkloiber13 wrote:

Also, since Long is now gone, who now becomes the leader of that offensive line??? Pouncey, that's who. The guy is extremely important to this offense. I'd love to see us give him a three years extension and pay him around $4-5M a year for the next five or six years.

You are assuming he is interested in signing.

I won't argue with you on offering Bush a 2 year deal. That would be a better deal for the team. But remember, if he walks we now have a hole at RB. I like Miller, but a 1,000 yard back he is not. Neither is Thomas.

Fasano had more touchdowns than our entire receiver corps this year. He was a safety blanket for Tannehill. Not only that, but he greatly helped out in the protetion department. Pass catchers are nice, but well-rounded guys are better in my opinion.

With Hartline, I agree that $6M is a lot, he's still a 1,000 yard receiver and Tannehill's top target. The man is due for a pay day. I think he'll get at least $4-5M.

I agree we need to upgrade. I'd love to see us re-sign Hartline. Sign Jennings. Then draft a pair of wideouts in the first three rounds.

So if Pouncey is an $8M center now, what would he be in two years if he continues to improve?

If he's got a shot to double his salary and be in a secure contract for the next five years, I think he'll seriously consider the offer.

Maybe for a cornerback who makes plays but Smith's play declined considerably as the season went on and teams know this.

Go back and read my post on how contracts are structured, even if he made $7 mil a year he wouldn't count $7 mil against the cap in year 1.

Quote:

We might save money by cutting guys, but won't that just leave us with more holes in our roster???

Cutting or RESTRUCTURING, read more carefully.

And what holes are Patterson and Marshall filling right now? Marshall spent most of the season on IR and Patterson played 1 game.

Overall Smith had an ok season, nothing special. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's worth that much money. But I just have this sneaking feeling he'll get a bigger deal than he's worth because of how strapped we are at cornerback.

Patterson played two games and held opponents to a 26% completion percentage against him. He's definitely a guy I could see us keeping next year if we can restructure his deal.

Marshall I feel might not be willing to restructure considering he's only one year into a deal and coming off a serious injury. If we cut him, he will likely cost us.

I won't argue with you on offering Bush a 2 year deal. That would be a better deal for the team. But remember, if he walks we now have a hole at RB. I like Miller, but a 1,000 yard back he is not. Neither is Thomas.

Why isn't Miller a 1000 Yd back? Has he proven he is or isn't?

wkloiber13 wrote:

Fasano had more touchdowns than our entire receiver corps this year. He was a safety blanket for Tannehill. Not only that, but he greatly helped out in the protetion department. Pass catchers are nice, but well-rounded guys are better in my opinion.

No one said to sign a player who cannot block. Fasano had more TDs than the entire WR? Again being the best of a bad lot does not make one good.

wkloiber13 wrote:

With Hartline, I agree that $6M is a lot, he's still a 1,000 yard receiver and Tannehill's top target. The man is due for a pay day. I think he'll get at least $4-5M.

I see Hartline as a 3 million per on his best day. Don't over pay for avg talent.

wkloiber13 wrote:

I agree we need to upgrade. I'd love to see us re-sign Hartline. Sign Jennings. Then draft a pair of wideouts in the first three rounds.

I'd love Hartline replaced with a top Wr. Go with new No. 1, top rookie Wr, Bess, maybe Binns or whomever.

wkloiber13 wrote:

So if Pouncey is an $8M center now, what would he be in two years if he continues to improve?

What if he doesn't or gets hurt like Long?

wkloiber13 wrote:

If he's got a shot to double his salary and be in a secure contract for the next five years, I think he'll seriously consider the offer.

Nothing preventing him for asking for more later even if he signs now.

Back to the topic... even with resigning all those guys you mentioned and even if they resigned at that much per year, their cap hit would be less so if you accumulate all those values, the Dolphins would still be under the cap minimum and would still need to spend in free agency, EVEN with the draft pick contracts. So once again, the possibility of getting a 3rd round compensatory pick is low and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get one in 2013...

No one said to sign a player who cannot block. Fasano had more TDs than the entire WR? Again being the best of a bad lot does not make one good.

He ranks 25th in targets, 30th in receptions, 34th in yards and 12th in TD's among all TE's in the NFL this year, so he deserves that credit... Even if he caught every ball thrown towards him he would still only rank 7th in receptions. Its expecting him to make something out of nothing.

I think the problem is the same as it has been for a few years, too much reliance on the TE for pass blocking.Fix the O-line, get better pass protection, do a better job creating space for the running backs and allow the TE's and RB's to slip off blocks for screens...

We need o-line help, we need major WR help, we need DB help. I think we can play it safe with Fasano for now, unless some of those "acorns" fall of the tree..

Look, WRs generally take time to develop unless they are a rare talent. This draft might have that, but there isn't a Calvin Johnson or AJ Green. You have two free agent WRs, Jennings and Wallace, who fit exactly what Miami needs and can do so for a few years. Signing them doesn't prevent Miami from drafting a guy (Cobi Hamilton?) to develop and eventually replace one of them.

You have a draft rich with defensive guys. You have the picks to grab a potentially elite DE or CB at the 12th pick, and the ammo move up and grab someone for the position you didn't get.

That still leaves Miami with enough to re-sign Bush and Starks, and use a 2nd and 3rd rounder on either TE/OT/WR...or BPA.

So much more needs to shake out but play this offseason to where the strengths are. Don't reach for a WR when you can get a developed product. Don't bypass an elite DE, OT or CB because you feel you have to get a WR on the cheap and who is very young.

Look, WRs generally take time to develop unless they are a rare talent. This draft might have that, but there isn't a Calvin Johnson or AJ Green. You have two free agent WRs, Jennings and Wallace, who fit exactly what Miami needs and can do so for a few years. Signing them doesn't prevent Miami from drafting a guy (Cobi Hamilton?) to develop and eventually replace one of them.

You have a draft rich with defensive guys. You have the picks to grab a potentially elite DE or CB at the 12th pick, and the ammo move up and grab someone for the position you didn't get.

That still leaves Miami with enough to re-sign Bush and Starks, and use a 2nd and 3rd rounder on either TE/OT/WR...or BPA.

So much more needs to shake out but play this offseason to where the strengths are. Don't reach for a WR when you can get a developed product. Don't bypass an elite DE, OT or CB because you feel you have to get a WR on the cheap and who is very young.

The needs on offense are far greater than the needs on defense. Therefore, I disagree with the idea that we should spend the top 3 picks on drafting 2 defensive players (#12 and 2 picks to trade up for 1 player), even if a FA WR is signed.

The needs on offense are far greater than the needs on defense. Therefore, I disagree with the idea that we should spend the top 3 picks on drafting 2 defensive players (#12 and 2 picks to trade up for 1 player), even if a FA WR is signed.

But otherwise, I agree with your ideas and what you said.

You don't have to restrict yourself, but if you can accomplish your big, immediate needs on offense via free agency then you have the luxury of adding defense via the draft and it seems that those guys more often have an immediate impact over WRs and TEs. Plus the draft seems to have some good defensive talent.

My point is that Miami has a lot of money to spend and there are guys who could be available to fill those needs before the draft even happens. That accelerates the development of the most important piece, Tannehill.

If BPA in the draft happens to be DE at 12, CB at 42 and OT at 50ish then it works perfectly if Miami has already taken care of their receiving options by signing Jennings, Wallace and maybe Cook or trading a 3rd for Finley. The options for discussion are endless.

This team is closer to the playoffs than a lot of people seem to give them credit for and this could be enormous offseason in both the short and long term. The cap space has them primed for some big short term moves should they choose that path.

Degs, you have to play to the draft's strengths. Otherwise you're asking for mediocrity.

Miami has to set themselves up in Free Agency so that they're comfortable taking a DE at 12. You can't go into the draft without any WR's, or NEEDING a starting RT. That's when you reach for that late 1st round caliber WR at #12, and bypass Jason Pierre Paul again.

The needs on offense are far greater than the needs on defense. Therefore, I disagree with the idea that we should spend the top 3 picks on drafting 2 defensive players (#12 and 2 picks to trade up for 1 player), even if a FA WR is signed.

But otherwise, I agree with your ideas and what you said.

You don't have to restrict yourself, but if you can accomplish your big, immediate needs on offense via free agency then you have the luxury of adding defense via the draft and it seems that those guys more often have an immediate impact over WRs and TEs. Plus the draft seems to have some good defensive talent.

My point is that Miami has a lot of money to spend and there are guys who could be available to fill those needs before the draft even happens. That accelerates the development of the most important piece, Tannehill.

If BPA in the draft happens to be DE at 12, CB at 42 and OT at 50ish then it works perfectly if Miami has already taken care of their receiving options by signing Jennings, Wallace and maybe Cook or trading a 3rd for Finley. The options for discussion are endless.

This team is closer to the playoffs than a lot of people seem to give them credit for and this could be enormous offseason in both the short and long term. The cap space has them primed for some big short term moves should they choose that path.

I'm with you on most points, especially about how close we might be to the playoffs (and this from a guy who has been harsh on the teams chances for 10 years).

Basically our one difference is the O vs D philosophy. I think the O still needs a fair amount of work, but I wouldn't mind using #12 on a defensive player. But if that is done, I'd spend the next 4 picks on offensive players (depending upon value)

Degs, you have to play to the draft's strengths. Otherwise you're asking for mediocrity.

Miami has to set themselves up in Free Agency so that they're comfortable taking a DE at 12. You can't go into the draft without any WR's, or NEEDING a starting RT. That's when you reach for that late 1st round caliber WR at #12, and bypass Jason Pierre Paul again.

If you check my other posts around, I've been advocating drafting Dee Milliner, CB, at #12.But then using the next several picks to build up the offense.

I agree with you in not reaching for something that is not there. But philosophically, I don't want to double down on defense with the first two or three picks when the offense needs far more help.

All of this is of course subject to who is available when each picks comes up

Degs, you have to play to the draft's strengths. Otherwise you're asking for mediocrity.

Miami has to set themselves up in Free Agency so that they're comfortable taking a DE at 12. You can't go into the draft without any WR's, or NEEDING a starting RT. That's when you reach for that late 1st round caliber WR at #12, and bypass Jason Pierre Paul again.

If you check my other posts around, I've been advocating drafting Dee Milliner, CB, at #12.But then using the next several picks to build up the offense.

I agree with you in not reaching for something that is not there. But philosophically, I don't want to double down on defense with the first two or three picks when the offense needs far more help.

All of this is of course subject to who is available when each picks comes up

Then we agree. Unless there's a guy you're absolutely crazy about on the defensive side, I think taking an impact player at 12 is enough. Go pass catchers after that.

Then we agree. Unless there's a guy you're absolutely crazy about on the defensive side, I think taking an impact player at 12 is enough. Go pass catchers after that.

From what I understand there aren't any top 20 talents at WR this year. So why reach and pretend someone is something he isn't. There are several teams who seem like they are going to reach at QB (KC, Jets). And I think that is great!!!! Just so long as we aren't the ones screwing ourselves.

Basically our one difference is the O vs D philosophy. I think the O still needs a fair amount of work, but I wouldn't mind using #12 on a defensive player. But if that is done, I'd spend the next 4 picks on offensive players (depending upon value)

If you can't get it done in free agency then I agree with you. I'm hoping they can avoid that by signing Jennings (knows the offense), Wallace (basically has to run a few routes, not hard) and hopefully trading a pick for Finley if possible (again knows the offense, proven he can play in the NFL). That is a short term game changer that also allows you to find developmental guys in the draft.

Of course all of those guys have to be available and 31 other teams are considering them in some way.

I'm a little uneasy relying on draft picks to turn around the offense at skill positions. There is a lack of veteran presence already.

Look, WRs generally take time to develop unless they are a rare talent. This draft might have that, but there isn't a Calvin Johnson or AJ Green. You have two free agent WRs, Jennings and Wallace, who fit exactly what Miami needs and can do so for a few years. Signing them doesn't prevent Miami from drafting a guy (Cobi Hamilton?) to develop and eventually replace one of them.

You have a draft rich with defensive guys. You have the picks to grab a potentially elite DE or CB at the 12th pick, and the ammo move up and grab someone for the position you didn't get.

That still leaves Miami with enough to re-sign Bush and Starks, and use a 2nd and 3rd rounder on either TE/OT/WR...or BPA.

So much more needs to shake out but play this offseason to where the strengths are. Don't reach for a WR when you can get a developed product. Don't bypass an elite DE, OT or CB because you feel you have to get a WR on the cheap and who is very young.

The needs on offense are far greater than the needs on defense. Therefore, I disagree with the idea that we should spend the top 3 picks on drafting 2 defensive players (#12 and 2 picks to trade up for 1 player), even if a FA WR is signed.

But otherwise, I agree with your ideas and what you said.

you don't reach for offensive picks just because your needs are greater on offense. This draft is easily dominated by defense in the top 50 picks. The most likely scenario is that a pass rusher will be the best player available when we pick at 12. Very possible that it will be defense again with our next pick. That's why we should get our #1 receiver in free agency.

Back to the topic... even with resigning all those guys you mentioned and even if they resigned at that much per year, their cap hit would be less so if you accumulate all those values, the Dolphins would still be under the cap minimum and would still need to spend in free agency, EVEN with the draft pick contracts. So once again, the possibility of getting a 3rd round compensatory pick is low and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get one in 2013...

Well then Rich, please give me an estimate on re-signing all of our veteran free agents (Smith, Hartline, Bush, Fasano, Starks, Clemons, etc.). Then give me your estimate on restructuring Marshall and Patterson. Then give me your estimate on how much it will cost to sign our rookies. Then because we both agree that extending Jones would be a good idea, what would that be roughly? Tell me, what would that number be? My guess is it's somewhere around $35M.

I'm still waiting for you to regail me with what you think will happen with all of these players. Also, you keep saying that a player is less expensive in the first year of his deal. That may be true for many contracts which are backloaded. But when we have so much cap space this year, why on earth wouldn't we take advantage of that and frontload contracts? Frontloaded contracts are becoming more and more common. They open up cap space to make future moves and put teams into situations where they can be aggressive year in and year out Personally, I'd rather give our veteran free agents their money up front while they're young and productive. It's a much safer move. Pay them while they're young and productive. Then when they start to take a downturn, they're cheaper and easier to trade or cut. Tell me Rich, why on earth can't we re-sign all of these guys, extend the others, and simply frontload their contracts and put us right up against the cap minimum?

Last edited by wkloiber13 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No one said to sign a player who cannot block. Fasano had more TDs than the entire WR? Again being the best of a bad lot does not make one good.

I see Hartline as a 3 million per on his best day. Don't over pay for avg talent. I'd love Hartline replaced with a top Wr. Go with new No. 1, top rookie Wr, Bess, maybe Binns or whomever.

What if he doesn't or gets hurt like Long?

Nothing preventing him for asking for more later even if he signs now.

Nothing Miller has done this year has shown me that he's a 1,000 yard back. All I saw was that he was a solid #2 back behind Bush. I'll need to see a lot more of him before I change my stance.

If Hartline only costs us $3M a season I say lock him down to a four or five year deal. He's worth that. I'd rather keep him than replace him. But if he's asking for too much money then I agree. Replace him with Jennings. Draft a couple of receivers in the first three rounds, and move on.

As for Pouncey, the kid has been very durable so far. Nothing leads me to believe the kid is suddenly going to crap out on us like Long did. I will concede that there isn't a rush to extend Pouncey. We could probably wait until mid way through next year and do it. But I just want to lock the guy down because I see him as a key piece of this team moving forward.

Nothing Miller has done this year has shown me that he's a 1,000 yard back. All I saw was that he was a solid #2 back behind Bush. I'll need to see a lot more of him before I change my stance.

So you do not think Miller can avg 62 Yds a game? What he did in college does not make you believe he can be a 1K back in the NFL? Did you think Bush was a 1K back when Miami traded for him?

wkloiber13 wrote:

If Hartline only costs us $3M a season I say lock him down to a four or five year deal. He's worth that. I'd rather keep him than replace him. But if he's asking for too much money then I agree. Replace him with Jennings. Draft a couple of receivers in the first three rounds, and move on.

If the Phins are going to draft a couple of Wr in the first 3 Rds, then no need to sign Hartline to any deal.

wkloiber13 wrote:

As for Pouncey, the kid has been very durable so far. Nothing leads me to believe the kid is suddenly going to crap out on us like Long did. I will concede that there isn't a rush to extend Pouncey. We could probably wait until mid way through next year and do it. But I just want to lock the guy down because I see him as a key piece of this team moving forward.

So after 3 season of playing 16 games & making the PB each yr & being 1-time First-Team All-Pro. You did not believe the very same thing in Jake Long? Pouncey has only played two yrs.

6/23/2009: Signed a four-year, $26.885 million contract. The cap-friendly deal (after 2009) contains $16.25 million guaranteed, including an $11.25 million signing bonus and Jennings' first-year base salary. Another $3 million is available through incentives, including $25,000 per game played, $25,000 each season if he plays in 12 games and the Packers make the playoffs, and escalators maxing out at $700,000 in 2010, $1 million in 2011, and $1.25 million in 2012 based on playing time and team performance. $300,000 offseason workout bonuses are available 2010-2012. 2012: $3.885 million, 2013: Free Agent

Now at 29, I don't see him getting a better deal than that. $5-6 millions/year for 3-4 years, I could live with that. I believe Dwayne Bowe will stay in KC, and Mike Wallace will probably get a deal similar to Vincent Jackson's since he's only 26 so I think Jennings is our only realistic option.

Now at 29, I don't see him getting a better deal than that. $5-6 millions/year for 3-4 years, I could live with that. I believe Dwayne Bowe will stay in KC, and Mike Wallace will probably get a deal similar to Vincent Jackson's since he's only 26 so I think Jennings is our only realistic option.

Bowe does not appear to be the type WR Miami needs. He is not what is called fast & is more of a possession Wr. Have no issue paying Wallace VJ type money. Its probably a back loaded deal that make the overall number look great, but in reality not nearly that good. Jenning is my 2nd choice, but would not give him more than a 3 yr deal.

At first I wanted the Dolphins to build the core of the team through the draft, and only add depth via FA, but after thinking about it, we don't just need talent at WR, we also need experience and Jennings has a SB ring and would bring a winning attitude to the team. Like Jammer mentioned in another thread, it makes too much sense to sign him. We need him and I think he wants to play in Miami, he just can't say it openly. I would still draft a WR in the 2nd round though, to develop alongside Jennings and replace him in 3-4 years.

Although Greg Jennings can’t and won’t say anything about the Dolphins while he is still under contract, you have to think Miami has come up at some point with the Jennings family. Valyencia didn’t just bring up the Dolphins Sunday out of thin air over every other team. Greg Jennings and his family have to be aware of what the Dolphins need, his connection with Philbin and the money Miami is willing to spend. It would make sense for Jennings and the Dolphins to be near the top of each other's offseason wish list.