I certainly hope to see more competition to drive down the junk fees charged in the current HSA provider market.

This is also great news for small businesses. It's free for under 10 employees and $4/employee/month for 10+.

I assume by "first dollar" you mean that we can invest 100% of the hSA funds. Is this the best HSA now for people who want to invest and not keep any HSA funds in cash? If anyone uses Lively, please post experience.

I certainly hope to see more competition to drive down the junk fees charged in the current HSA provider market.

This is also great news for small businesses. It's free for under 10 employees and $4/employee/month for 10+.

I assume by "first dollar" you mean that we can invest 100% of the hSA funds. Is this the best HSA now for people who want to invest and not keep any HSA funds in cash? If anyone uses Lively, please post experience.

The website says "No minimum balance required. It’s up to you to decide how much of your HSA funds to invest." So I assume you can invest 100% of the funds.

For those who invest once a year, Saturna is still the best ($15 for one ETF trade). The next best alternative that supports "first dollar" investing is with HSA Authority. They offer a bunch of Vanguard mutual funds, for a fee of $36/year.

Lively is very new. I believe they announced the TD Ameritrade link-up only yesterday.

Tier 1: 0.05% (APY of 0.05%) for daily balances less than or equal to $2,499.99.
Tier 2: 0.15% (APY of 0.15%) for daily balances of $2,500.00 or more, but less than or equal to $4,999.99.
Tier 3: 0.30% (APY of 0.30%) for daily balances of $5,000.00 or more, but less than or equal to $14,999.99.
Tier 4: 0.55% (APY of 0.55%) for daily balances of $15,000.00 or more.

Tier 1: 0.05% (APY of 0.05%) for daily balances less than or equal to $2,499.99.
Tier 2: 0.15% (APY of 0.15%) for daily balances of $2,500.00 or more, but less than or equal to $4,999.99.
Tier 3: 0.30% (APY of 0.30%) for daily balances of $5,000.00 or more, but less than or equal to $14,999.99.
Tier 4: 0.55% (APY of 0.55%) for daily balances of $15,000.00 or more.

That doesn't bother me. You could keep your HSA savings at another bank, or use a MM fund or 3-month CD in the investment account.

The website says "No minimum balance required. It’s up to you to decide how much of your HSA funds to invest." So I assume you can invest 100% of the funds.

For those who invest once a year, Saturna is still the best ($15 for one ETF trade). The next best alternative that supports "first dollar" investing is with HSA Authority. They offer a bunch of Vanguard mutual funds, for a fee of $36/year.

Lively is very new. I believe they announced the TD Ameritrade link-up only yesterday.

HSA Authority has a limited selection of funds. Lively appears to be the cheapest full brokerage option. HSA Bank has higher fees, and Selectaccount has a $10k minimum for their Schwab option. I am very interested in this.

Last edited by aristotelian on Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tier 1: 0.05% (APY of 0.05%) for daily balances less than or equal to $2,499.99.
Tier 2: 0.15% (APY of 0.15%) for daily balances of $2,500.00 or more, but less than or equal to $4,999.99.
Tier 3: 0.30% (APY of 0.30%) for daily balances of $5,000.00 or more, but less than or equal to $14,999.99.
Tier 4: 0.55% (APY of 0.55%) for daily balances of $15,000.00 or more.

Why would anyone want to interest (especially when you can invest 100% of the fudns) in their HSA?

HSA Authority and Saturna both have a limited selection of funds. Lively appears to be the cheapest full brokerage option. HSA Bank has higher fees, and Selectaccount has a $10k minimum for their Schwab option. I am very interested in this.

why do you say Saturna has a limited selection of funds? Last I checked, they offered everything

HSA fees aggravate me as much as anyone else, so I would really be happy to see new entrants to the marketplace figure out a better way to do things. But ... something doesn't quite seem to add up here.

What is so different about Lively that venture capitalists are putting money into them while, at the same time, an established HSA administrator like Alliant Credit Union has decided HSAs are no longer a viable business for them?

Lively (apparently very new start-up):

Our basic HSA is free for individuals – no monthly fees, no minimums, no nonsense. We think you should be able to save for free.

In addition, the convergence of "FREE!"* "Silicon Valley start-up," and "venture capitalists" always gets me wondering about how a start-up is planning on making enough profit to please the venture capitalists.

Lively is based in San Francisco, CA and is backed by top-tier VC's and strategic investors.

Are they making money via the low interest rates? Lively isn't a bank ... it just partners with one.** The usual banking method of making money off of the gap between the interest paid on a deposit account and the interest earned on loans made using those deposit assets wouldn't seem to apply. So, unless they have some partnering set-up where Lively is skimming some of the interest off of the FDIC-insured bank accounts as a stealth fee, I don't see how they are making money that way. (And if there is an undisclosed stealth fee, I'm not impressed, given all the wording about transparency.)

Are they planning to make money off my eyeballs?*** (But could they really make enough that way to pay salaries, keep up with the pressures that the Alliant CEO cites, AND satisfy venture capitalists?)

Are they planning on making money off my data? There are certainly plenty of Silicon Valley start-ups that take that monetization route, but . . . exactly what kind of HSA data is legally available for them to data mine? The thought of them mining some unknown portion of my HSA data gives me the willies.

Are they planning on introducing fees once enough accounts are lured in via the "FREE!"? (also a tactic I've seen with start-ups, e.g. Coursera)

Or something else I haven't thought of?

Notes:

*Re: "free". Anyone else take Dan Ariely's MOOC or read his Predictably Irrational on "The Price of FREE!"? Now I always get suspicous when I see "FREE!"

** Re: Lively is not a bank.

WE ARE ALSO NOT A BANK OR FINANCIAL INSTITUTION, ALTHOUGH WE MAY PARTNER WITH BANKS AND FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS

The Site may contain links to third-party websites and services, applications and/or display advertisements for third parties . . . Such Third-Party Links, Applications & Ads are not under the control of Lively, and Lively is not responsible for any Third-Party Links, Applications & Ads. Lively provides access to these Third-Party Links, Applications & Ads only as a convenience to you, and does not review, approve, monitor, endorse, warrant, or make any representations with respect to Third-Party Links, Applications & Ads. You use all Third-Party Links, Applications & Ads at your own risk, and should apply a suitable level of caution and discretion in doing so.

HSA fees aggravate me as much as anyone else, so I would really be happy to see new entrants to the marketplace figure out a better way to do things. But ... something doesn't quite seem to add up here.

What is so different about Lively that venture capitalists are putting money into them while, at the same time, an established HSA administrator like Alliant Credit Union has decided HSAs are no longer a viable business for them?

Are they making money via the low interest rates? Lively isn't a bank ... it just partners with one.** The usual banking method of making money off of the gap between the interest paid on a deposit account and the interest earned on loans made using those deposit assets wouldn't seem to apply. So, unless they have some partnering set-up where Lively is skimming some of the interest off of the FDIC-insured bank accounts as a stealth fee, I don't see how they are making money that way. (And if there is an undisclosed stealth fee, I'm not impressed, given all the wording about transparency.)

It's pretty clear, they are making money by charging a low monthly fee that undercuts the competition. Same thing that Vanguard did to the mutual fund industry.

HSA Authority and Saturna both have a limited selection of funds. Lively appears to be the cheapest full brokerage option. HSA Bank has higher fees, and Selectaccount has a $10k minimum for their Schwab option. I am very interested in this.

why do you say Saturna has a limited selection of funds? Last I checked, they offered everything

It's pretty clear, they are making money by charging a low monthly fee that undercuts the competition. Same thing that Vanguard did to the mutual fund industry.

Which "low monthly fee" are you talking about that Lively might be making money off of?

-the $0/month deposit account fee for individuals and tiny businesses?
-the $4/month deposit account fee for small businesses? (If that is passed on to the employee, like many businesses do, then Lively fees are very similar to a bunch of other HSA administrators.)
-the $2.50/month TD Ameritrade fee that Lively says they get no part of?

(And Vanguard proclaims that they can charge low fees in a sustainable, long-term way because they don't have to please outside investors (like venture capitalists.) (Since they have a unique structure where they are owned by their own funds and thence indirectly by the shareholders in those funds. No outside investors.) So I'm not sure I see the similarity between Lively and Vanguard.)

But ... whatever. Lively may be a good deal for a while for people who don't mind shifting to a different HSA if Lively changes policies or goes under.

-the $0/month deposit account fee for individuals and tiny businesses?
-the $4/month deposit account fee for small businesses? (If that is passed on to the employee, like many businesses do, then Lively fees are very similar to a bunch of other HSA administrators.)
-the $2.50/month TD Ameritrade fee that Lively says they get no part of?

Where does it say that Lively gets no part of it? It says "no additional fees by Lively." I take that to mean that they get all or some of the $2.50 but don't charge anything else, e.g. transaction fees or expense ratios would go to TD or the funds.

Thanks! Might consider changing from Saturna at some point, but for now I'll wait and see. Saturna is nothing special, but it is an inexpensive place to invest larger HSA accounts and not been unreasonable.

Just signed up. Will let folks know how it goes once I transfer and link with my employer. Happy to support a start up that is focused on using your HSA as an investment. In interviews with the guys they clearly understand this aspect. Don't really see the downside of switching, unless they go under and the hassle of moving again.

I am going to give it a try. The money in the cash side is FDIC-insured (it appears to be at "Choice Financial," a North Dakota bank). The investment account it at TD Ameritrade. I'm imagining that if Lively were to collapse, it could be a pain in the butt, but the investments should still be mine. I hope my imagination is correct.

I actually was in the process of moving my HSA from Alliant Credit Union (mentioned above; leaving the HSA business) to another credit union. However, the paperwork involved in the process was very confusing -- the new credit union, First Tech, had me print out a bunch of confusing forms to sign, scan in, and email them. Due to the hassle, I hadn't yet gotten around to it. Lively appears very easy to sign up for.

As for the conversation above, I think one of the critiques above is wrong. In my mind, it makes perfect sense for Alliant to want to leave the HSA business: it's a lot of hassle, a relatively small part of their business, and its future is really as an investment vehicle, not as a banking service. For Lively, it makes perfect sense to enter: they see potential in a growing type of investment service which currently served pretty poorly. Two different businesses, both with reasonable points of view.

My biggest concern is about it being a small startup. And yes, that's a legit concern, but if the money is actually held in a real FDIC-insured bank and in a big brokerage, I'm okay with that risk.

We save with OptumBank HSA. No fees. Funds are invested with Vanguard VTSAX at 0.04% expense ratio. Very happy.

According to HSA Search, you are paying .03% portfolio fee plus a minimum of $3k or $2.75 monthly. Is that correct? If so Lively would seem to be slightly cheaper as well as having the full brokerage option.

Just signed up. Will let folks know how it goes once I transfer and link with my employer. Happy to support a start up that is focused on using your HSA as an investment. In interviews with the guys they clearly understand this aspect. Don't really see the downside of switching, unless they go under and the hassle of moving again.

We save with OptumBank HSA. No fees. Funds are invested with Vanguard VTSAX at 0.04% expense ratio. Very happy.

According to HSA Search, you are paying .03% portfolio fee plus a minimum of $3k or $2.75 monthly. Is that correct? If so Lively would seem to be slightly cheaper as well as having the full brokerage option.

It looks like there is also a $2k investment threshold (cash drag; cannot be invested) at the OptumBank HSA.

In my search for a HSA provider, I assign a "fee" value of $40 per year for each thousand that cannot be invested. $2k that cannot be invested is like a fee of $80 / year.

Last edited by indexfundfan on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

We save with OptumBank HSA. No fees. Funds are invested with Vanguard VTSAX at 0.04% expense ratio. Very happy.

According to HSA Search, you are paying .03% portfolio fee plus a minimum of $3k or $2.75 monthly. Is that correct? If so Lively would seem to be slightly cheaper as well as having the full brokerage option.

$3K minimum cash balance to avoid a monthly fee. After that, no 'portfolio fee' or monthly fee; just the .04% OER for the Vanguard fund. It does seem that the fee arrangement can vary depending on who your employer is/was. YMMV.

SelectAccount charges $36 per year in fees, that's about $6 more than Lively. The available fund choices are quite limited for basic investment in SelectAccount. Most relevant ones are Vanguard large/mid/small cap index funds, while no Vanguard bond fund is available. Also you have to put $1000 minimum cash deposit earning nothing there before any access to investing.

Lively does have better investment choice (Vanguard ETF) through TD Ameritrade brokerage. No cash deposit required. Most likely, I will wait for a few years and see how Lively business will go in the future before transferring my HSA in there.

Am I reading this right that I can invest ALL of my HSA funds for $2.50 per month with no savings account minimum? My current HSA requires $1,000 in a savings account to invest. If I can make 2% on that $1,000, the $20 pays for 2/3 of the fees...

Am I reading this right that I can invest ALL of my HSA funds for $2.50 per month with no savings account minimum? My current HSA requires $1,000 in a savings account to invest. If I can make 2% on that $1,000, the $20 pays for 2/3 of the fees...

Yes, this is my understanding as well. Invest from the first dollar you put into the HSA for a $2.50/month fee.
Some have already applied. We can wait for their feedback.

I opened up an account on Lively's portal yesterday, and I'm still waiting for final approval. I called and spoke to a (the?) support person to see if I could stop the debit card from being sent, but she checked and it is automated. She said I could just not activate and destroy it.

Has anyone submitted a transfer request through Lively yet? I don't have access to that function until my account is activated.

I also spoke to my existing HSA provider (5th-3rd bank) yesterday, and both the front-line support rep and her supervisor assured me that they do not charge the $25 "Account Transfer/Closure" Fee unless an account is both transferred and inactive for 6 months. That is how the fee disclosure language reads, but it was awkwardly worded, and I wanted to double-check. My employer will continue to send my biweekly contributions there. If it goes smoothly, I will probably try to do one transfer every 3-4 months. (If they charge a transfer fee, I'll opt for one rollover per calendar year through my bank account.)

At $30 per year fixed, I will end up saving $80 per year (and growing). I currently pay $2/month to invest, 20 bp/year (5 bp/quarter) on the investments, and I have to keep $2,000 in cash. With quarterly or even semi-annual transfers, my average cash balance will be lower under the new two-account arrangement too. I also have more (if not cheaper) investment options through TD Ameritrade.

Setup with Lively was fine, but unfortunately they confirmed that they are not setup with my employer to do payroll contributions... Their suggestion was to transfer my existing balance with Select Account and consider post-tax contributions. I reminded them that post-tax contributions would miss the FICA/SS benefits, so unfortunately I will probably not use Lively at this point. Perhaps to transfer annual from Select Account, but is it really worth it?? meh.

Going to suggest to our controller to look into them. Anyone have any experience getting an employer to add a provider?

Going to suggest to our controller to look into them. Anyone have any experience getting an employer to add a provider?

I doubt you are going to get anywhere unless you have a bunch of people wanting to switch. Selectaccount already has pretty good investment options and low fees. I would consider myself happy if my employer gave us that option!

That's good! Clearly they have thought through how to maximize for investments in the HSA.

It's also particularly attractive for residents of income-taxing states that don't recognize HSAs as tax-sheltered accounts [for which every monthly liquidation of fractional investment shares to pay such fee would constitute another sale of a small tax lot to be logged in asset record(s) kept potentially for many years by the account holder].

Didn't read all the replies but in regards to the no transaction cost Vanguard etf's @ TDA, I've got it from a pretty good source that sometime in the 4th qtr that list will change dramatically. The person wouldn't confirm or deny whether Vanguard was going to be leaving but dropped hints that it was.

This is a general question, and not in any way implying anything about Lively. They are probably a perfectly good company. They might even end up shaking up the HSA world and improving things for everyone. But, the idea of a brand new start-up non-bank HSA administrator got a question niggling around in the back of my mind:

In the early days of HSAs, two (non-bank) HSA administrators went bankrupt due to embezzlement of $millions: 1 Point Solutions and Canopy Financial.*

Were there ever any safeguards put in place to limit the likelihood that this might happen again or to protect investors using non-bank HSA administrators?

Is there some place that one should check to make sure an entity that is claiming to administer HSAs is legitimate? (Or at least improve one's chances that they are legitimate?)

If an HSA Administrator is a bank, one can check the FDIC or NCUA websites to make sure the bank is legit and get all kinds of regulatory information.

If an HSA Administrator is a RIA (Registered Investment Advisor), one can check the SEC database to see if they really are registered and if any complaints have been made against them.

And then there is some other class of non-bank HSA administrators that choose to?/have to? register as "nonbank trustee/custodians" with the IRS and get put on an official list. ( https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/ap ... custodians ). I don't know what kind of regulatory teeth or safeguards this provides. HealthEquity, SelectAccounts, Payflex, and ConnectYourCare are all HSA administrators that are on this list. Lively is not on this list.

Is there some other place I should be looking?

*The early HSA administrators that went bankrupt due to embezzlement by employees:

Stokes allegedly caused 1 Point Solutions employees to create and maintain a website through which plan participants could access their individual accounts on a daily basis to check on performance and balances. Both of these participant resources falsely represented that the plan assets had been invested as instructed when, in fact, the funds had been misappropriated by Stokes.

Blackburn admitted that he created phony bank statements during 2009 to conceal the transfer of more than $18 million from special health care accounts in which Canopy held funds as custodian for the benefit of more than 1,600 clients and customers to make payments to medical providers. The funds were transferred to Canopy’s own operating accounts, as well as to benefit Blackburn and Banas personally.

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote:i was reading about lively, and peoples experiences about it on viewtopic.php?f=2&t=228522 there is some questiosn about why is it not on the IRS list of non bank HSA providers

Shobin wrote:We are not a non-bank custodian. That is why we are not on the IRS list. We work with a banking partner our of North Dakota called Choice Financial.

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote:thanks. i'll post that back into the thread. i guess the question is how does someone validate that your legit, and the funds are actually in a persons name, and not a ponzi scheme, etc. if your not registered in any way

Shobin wrote:Thank you for the link. We are also not an RIA. That is why we have partnered with TD Ameritrade to offer a Self Directed Brokerage option for our users.
I can ensure you that we are not a ponzi scheme . We take security, compliance, and other aspects of our business very seriously.
We are both HIPAA compliant and have worked closely with our banking partner to ensure we are in compliance with all necessarily laws, etc. All accounts are also FDIC-insured and interest bearing.
We went through an extensive diligence process with our bank provider (Choice Financial) before we would ever launch the HSA program as well.
We do our best to provide the best service and product that we can, but we also know that we aren't perfect for everyone or that some people just won't be comfortable until we are larger and more established. Sorry for the multiple notes, but wanted to be thorough in my response. Hope this is helpful.

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote:Thanks. its appreciated.

Shobin wrote:You bet. Also - one last note. I also noticed the links about Canopy Financial on that thread. That was a terrible situation where a lot of people lost their money. It was also the worst story of founder fraud that we have heard of. We certainly are not Canopy Financial and while we can only use our words, our hope is that over time, our actions will prove that!
Have a great day and please let us know if there is anything that we can do to help.