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Of course they are both equally as sacred. The issues for me are choice and necessity. My fundamental is that I put my health first. I can survive healthily without eating animals, but I cannot survive healthily without eating plants.

That doesn't make sense. You're placing one above the other.

I mean, I can live quite fine without eating, say, apples, but that doesn't mean I should avoid them. Just because I can is a pretty lousy reason.

(also? I could not be healthy as a vegetarian, due to health reasons of my own. So it's not that cut and dried).

BTW, you will find that there are a lot of meat-eating Pagans on this board. They don't try to talk people into eating meat if they don't want to, but they will object strongly to people telling them they can't be real Pagans if they eat meat.

I'm honestly not looking for an argument about vegetarianism. What I am interested in are the principles and ethics behind other people's pagan beliefs. I have no agenda I promise.

If I own it, it's mine to give. What makes something a sacrifice -- offering (or parts of it -- usually those parts humans don't eat) to the Gods. I have no problem with it -- but then I'm one of those meat-eating Pagans.

Whats the difference between a sacrifice and an offering?And what is ownership in this context?

I mean, I can live quite fine without eating, say, apples, but that doesn't mean I should avoid them. Just because I can is a pretty lousy reason.

It's not placing one above the other (as far as I can see). I don't have a choice whether to eat plants or not. Whether I do or don't eat meat, it is still necessitious to eat plants. Therefore there's no argument to it. If your health depended on a diet made out entirely of apples then it wouldn't matter if it was the most sacred thing in the world, you'd still have to eat them.

(also? I could not be healthy as a vegetarian, due to health reasons of my own. So it's not that cut and dried).

Sure, again, it's all about necessity. If my health took a turn and doctors advised me to eat meat or dairy, I would give it a go. And yes, there are people who do vegetarianism and veganism very badly indeed and it's unhealthy. So a key part of this is about knowing what one needs and what one can do without.

I find it difficult that earth-honouring Pagans can actively choose to eat meat as: conscious beautiful animals are farmed and killed to be on your dinner plate, the manufacture of fodder to feed livestock is a real threat to rainforest right now, and ultimately, we don't NEED to. Fine to eat animals if there's nothing else around, but with supermarkets stuffed full of food, we have an option not to support the meat industry.

I suspect it's something you'll have to learn to live with because there are a lot of pagan religions that don't have the "earth honoring" bit incorporated. And there are a whole lot of them represented on this board.

Oh I feel like I'm on display now. As for learning to live with it, I'm on this board because I know there will a wide range of perspectives. I would prefer it not to turn into a veggie/meat-eater debate though please. I acknowledge that everyone has different viewpoints and that they are all as valid as each other.

I would, however, welcome more perspectives on the other issues in my first post

I would, however, welcome more perspectives on the other issues in my first post

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to make of most of them, but ere goes....

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- 1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men

This seems to depend on where you are (and how you define young and sexy). I know of Pagan communities with lots of available men and few available women, for example.

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- 2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)

Something I don't see.

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- 3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing

Some Pagan religions have such offices, others don't. If one doesn't like the idea of hierarchy or something, one just needs to find a Pagan religion that lacks it.

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- 4. Pagan books

Some are good, most are indifferent or bad. Like books on every other subject.

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- 5. Strange dirty old men

Something else I don't see.

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- 6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks

Most of the LARP people I've met aren't Pagan.

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- 7. Meat eaters

Already discussed.

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- 8. Crystals

They are important to some, not to others. I don't hang out with people who wear pounds of them.

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- 9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’

Many more experienced Pagans get very tired of those who are willingly ignorant and express themselves. In the US, at least, this is fortunately protected by the First Amendment.

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- 10. The constant complaining about Christianity

It doesn't happen everywhere. You don't see much of it from regulars here (other than against the fundies who want to impose their fundie version of Christianity on the US by law).

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- 11. Beards and long hair

I see both Pagans and non-Pagans with both. I don't see what the problem is. People have the right to either or both if they want.

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- 12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise

In the US, this applies to most of the population: Pagan, Christian, and otherwise.

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- 13. Swords

This are actually important in some systems of magic and in a few Pagan religions. I've never seen that many of them in the Pagan community and they are probably only slightly more common in the Pagan community than the non-Pagan community. Of course, I live in Texas, so I see more Pagans with guns than Pagans with swords.

Well that's very reassuring. Thankyou. I might just come and live in your area, apart from the guns thing.

>>Most of the LARP people I've met aren't Pagan.

But most of the Pagans I've met are LARPers Okay, that's untrue. I just don't get it. There does seem to be some degree of cross over between LARP and Pagans. Just as there is cross over between Morris Dancing and Pagans. It's something I've noticed. Is there a connection? I guess most people would say there isn't, but the two seem to attract similar kind of people. I am suspicious that you are reassuring me whilst you do actually know what I'm on about. And I recognise that I'm stereotyping to an extent. But it's something I had to get out of my system.

My fundamental is that I put my health first. I can survive healthily without eating animals, but I cannot survive healthily without eating plants.

Not true. I was a strict carnivore for several years and did very well on a meat only diet. In the end I returned to an omnivorous diet because I wanted more variety. Later, I also came to believe that going to one extreme or the other was what was unbalanced. While either vegitarianism or carnivorism (as well as fasting) can be fine for a while, I prefer a more holistic approach for me.

Not true. I was a strict carnivore for several years and did very well on a meat only diet. In the end I returned to an omnivorous diet because I wanted more variety. Later, I also came to believe that going to one extreme or the other was what was unbalanced. While either vegitarianism or carnivorism (as well as fasting) can be fine for a while, I prefer a more holistic approach for me.

I think there might be a few nutritionalists that would disagree with you on the carnivorous diet thing. However, I agree balance is a good thing and I think understanding our nutritional requirements is a key responsibility we have as human beings.I would also argue that eat a greater variety of foods now then I ever did. The creativity of cooking without meat and dairy gives me a lot of excitement, I just adore food.

Is being a Pagan the base requirement you’re looking for in a potential partner?

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- 3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing

I’m not really sure what it is here that you have a problem with, can you please explain?

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- 4. Pagan books

There are a lot of books that have wrong or misleading information, but that isn’t solely a trait of Pagan related topics. Selling books is a business and as long as there is a market for such material, someone will publish it.

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- 9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’

On the flip side, there are those that don’t think we should question what other people believe, that we should take everything someone says at face value without any doubt. I do think that people can be too tolerant, and I think that is actually more destructive.

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- 10. The constant complaining about Christianity

I think that in a group where one of the main (if not the only) identifying characteristics can be defined by not belonging to a JCI religion, finding complaints about any one of those is not unusual. I would be surprised if there weren’t any.

Good question, there was actually a witchvox article asking why an unfortunately large number of pagans dress in Renn Faire garb for their ceremonies.

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- 3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing

The terms were coined back in a time when many neo pagan groups were emerging and were grabbing terms not only that described the position but were "official" and sounded grand. Remember many neo-pagan groups have their initial roots in the Victorian era and the position titles reflect that.

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- 4. Pagan books

?? Specifics ??

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- 5. Strange dirty old men

What better place for strange people to hang out than small often semi-secretive groups.

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- 6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks

These are often people who are hoping that real life pagan religions will be like their favorite fantasy books/tv/movie. Most give it up quickly when they realize fantasy is just that.

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- 7. Meat eaters

Already taken care of ad nausium

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- 8. Crystals

Usage varies widely.

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- 9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’

Because fluffy bunnies tend to do a really good job of propogating (just like real bunnies). Though in this case they're often propogating incorrect info, and do so in the most public manner possible.

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- 10. The constant complaining about Christianity

Most of us have had really bad experiences with Christianity. It's also annoying whenever the majority automatically (and often ignorantly) plows ahead and over the minority, with such righteous justification and/or abandon.

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- 11. Beards and long hair

For me it's a connection to my roots (pun intended). My ancestors (the Celts) were quite renown for their moustaches and beards.

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- 12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise

This one is not any different than other religious groups. At the risk of being seen as anti-christian, if the body is the temple of the holy spirit; there are some cathedrals out there.

I would prefer it not to turn into a veggie/meat-eater debate though please.

Something about this forum to be aware of: Thread drift does happen, just as offline conversations drift from topic to topic. We don't generally try to curtail that, since it can lead to some pretty interesting discussions too. If you don't want to discuss something, the best way to handle the situation is probably to simply not discuss it.

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"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced." -- Aart Van Der Leeuw