I've always had issue with this spell. The rigidness of the charts provided never sat nicely with me. I've always guessed as to why, but never really delved into it too deeply.

But now I find the red hand of wrongness

Summon Monster III, allows you to summon a Small elemental (CR 1) or a Hellhound (CR 3). Summon Monster II allows for the summoning of a Lemure (devil) (CR 1).

What the heck? Not only is there this issue, but the Celestial / Fiendish issue grinds me a bit too, these templates are assigned to vermin, animal, etc.. normal stuff. Summon Monster DOES call forth creatures from another plane. But why am I limited to having to cast an Evil spell to call a monstrous scorpion? The poison, no... I can summon a celestial giant Bee they have poison. So, what is going on here?

The Planar Handbook, has a few variant rules, however it also sticks strictly to the lists presented in the PHB. Where as I am substituting one for another.

Has anyone tackled this issue? Made a better list, a more balanced sensible approach to this?

I am going to try and rework this spell, but all ideas are welcome

Thanks
:confused:

Inquisitor Tremayne

11-23-2009, 12:05 PM

Is the problem the variance in summoned monster CLs?

Sascha

11-23-2009, 02:05 PM

What the heck? Not only is there this issue, but the Celestial / Fiendish issue grinds me a bit too, these templates are assigned to vermin, animal, etc.. normal stuff. Summon Monster DOES call forth creatures from another plane. But why am I limited to having to cast an Evil spell to call a monstrous scorpion? The poison, no... I can summon a celestial giant Bee they have poison. So, what is going on here?
Scorpions got a bad public image, which is prolly why you don't see Celestial monstrous scorpions; bees, they're kinda cute compared to scorpions, and they make honey, so they get to be Celestial.

(Really the only explanation I can think of, heh. Wouldn't be that difficult to make a Celestial monstrous scorpion, if you really wanted to, though; or a Fiendish giant bee, to go the other way.)

As for the CRs, they're not much more than a guideline to the 'challenge' portion, that I've seen. Seems their prime use is determining experience gained, not providing rankings compared to other monsters. It's not surprising, really, that the Summon Whatever spells have lists of slightly varying CR-critters.

TheRageOfGaia

11-23-2009, 03:26 PM

I agree. Summoning and Summoners are great concepts, and it's a very popular theme in fantasy. But in D&D it basically fails to deliver. But there are some things that can make it interesting.

In one campaign I ran I added a "summoner" class. It was basically a wizard with a different spell list. The same thing could work with any of the spellcasting classes I imagine.

Another thing that makes summoning fun is a variant that I believe is in Unearthed Arcana, it is basically that every creature you summon is the same every time. I.e. if you summon a wolf, you always summon Cujo the Alpha of the Redeye Pack. If you summon two you get Cujo and Lobo, three you get Cujo, Lobo and Benji. And so on and so forth. This gives the summoner a little more power than the spell allows for normally, because you can send your wolf scouting. Then summon it again and talk to it. Or monster if you're using the variant.

Finally, expand the list of summonable monsters and animals. One fun way to do this, though it can be abused by certain players and DMs, is to allow them to try and summon anything. They'll learn fairly quickly that trying to summon a great wyrm gold dragon is always going to fail, and they'll be wasting spells.

Summon Monster, and Summon Nature's Ally, are two spells that DEFINITELY exemplify the idea that the rulebook is made up of guidelines, not absolutes.

DMMike

11-24-2009, 03:20 PM

Fails to deliver? Say that after summoning a celestial griffon (CR 5) for 9 rounds, for the cost of one of your two highest spells for the day (with 21 other spell slots untouched). Evil smiting, escape-blocking, short-range flying, or small village-eating are all available to you with the celestial griffon.

I like to include unique-monster summons from one-higher summon chart than normal. They make a new spell: Summon (Insert name here). So it can't be done spontaneously. And since the monster keeps coming back - probably best not to abuse it.

(Griffon claw damage: 1d4+2? Seriously?)

Sacha's on it with the celestial/fiendish thing. Celestial realms are filled with fluffy/noble things, fiendish realms are filled with creepy/pestilential things. Which is pretty cliche', so edit as desired.

Pushkins

11-24-2009, 04:27 PM

I still feel it fails to deliver, and is further unbalanced between the alignments of the caster, what creatures "the chart" allows to be summoned for those. And, the fact mundane creatures become subjective to the rigid framework of the alignment system. I am working on a fix, however it'll be a complete refrence with planar templates. I will post it here when I am done, Just not sure if this forum is the right place for it, as the entry may be somewhat long

Inquisitor Tremayne

11-24-2009, 05:58 PM

Do it!

Sascha

11-24-2009, 07:02 PM

I still feel it fails to deliver, and is further unbalanced between the alignments of the caster, what creatures "the chart" allows to be summoned for those. And, the fact mundane creatures become subjective to the rigid framework of the alignment system. I am working on a fix, however it'll be a complete refrence with planar templates. I will post it here when I am done, Just not sure if this forum is the right place for it, as the entry may be somewhat long
To be fair, mundane creatures were always subject to the alignment system, being Neutral on both axes.

Pushkins

11-25-2009, 02:45 AM

Ok like I said this is a massive post, I hope it goes through complete

Please give me feedback as to your thoughts , likes and dislikes. There is a touch of homebrew elemental in there ( blood) but the rest is all WotC templates

This is an excerpt from the Complete Mage
CONJURATION
A conjuration spell creates or summons a real object or creature. The effect could appear in the spellcaster's hand, arrive from another plane of existence, or take shape in front of her. Specialists in this school call themselves conjurers, and they subscribe to the philosophy that two birds in the hand are worth four in the bush. Critics of the conjuration school deride this discipline as outright theft and enslavement, but conjurers feel that the objects they materialize and the creatures they summon are composed of latent energy waiting to be formed by their will. They like to imagine that through spellcasting, they take control of the fundamental material of reality.
Conjurers believe that their spells are drawn from the leftover energy that created the universe. As such, their spells do not steal from the world around them, but instead draw from an ever-expanding force of creation that is still spawning life in its wake. Those who oppose this theory accuse conjurers of weakening the fabric of reality, slowly draining off imperceptible amounts of matter to fuel their spells.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magic beast native to another plane.)Upon choosing this spell the caster must choose an affiliated plane from which to call her minions. As the caster progresses in levels of spell use, they may choose this spell again as a more powerful version of the original spell ( see table 1-1.) The spell caster may also wish to memorize, or know, for spontaneous casters this spell multiple times. Each consecutive time this spell is chosen the caster can either learn to summon from an additional plane, which can unlock higher planes, or choose the same plane again and develop relationships with specific creatures that advance with the higher level spells used to summon them. This means, when the same plane is chosen a second time , the summoned creatures are the exact same creatures summoned each time, if these creatures are destroyed in anyway, they return immediately to their home plane, and cannot be called upon again until the caster has rested for 8 hours. When a caster learns this spell at higher levels she may choose to divide the total CR granted by those spells to summon additional creatures, so long as the total number of creatures CR rating is equal to or less than the maximum allowed for that level spell.
When choosing a planar influence, the choice is limited as to the alignment of the character. A caster may choose only from an alignment they share with the plane, initially. Additional learned and memorized spells, or known versions for spontaneous casters can be chosen one step off from the casters alignment. As mentioned previously, choosing one plane or a combination of planes can open the door to summoning creatures from higher planes. In the case of Wizards and classes that must memorize spells, to achieve additional effects of taking this spell multiple times requires each spell be memorized as per the casters daily use of spells. The arcane energies needed to contact the higher planes require those energies to be “active” with the spell caster as a means to contact those planes, regardless if they have expended that spell previously in the day or not. Refer to table 1-2 to determine which planar alignment you are learning to contact.
The summons spell takes on spell descriptors in relation to the planar traits from where they were summoned from, or as noted in the Template description. ( A celestial hawk is a Good aligned spell)

Table 1-1
For the following levels of spells, a caster may choose to summon a creature planar variant, which may be any Aberration, Animal, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin that could be found on the Prime Material plane, and add the appropriate planar traits they have access to, or a native creature to those planes where noted. These creatures must adhere to the requirements of CR rating per level of spell. Note: if a non-elemental creature requires a specific environment to exists, that environment must be present for creature to survive ( A Celestial fish needs a watery environment to be summoned)
When a planar Native is considered that creatures alignment must reflect the Caster’s alignment, being no more than one step away, when cast and the spell takes on the spell descriptor of that creature.( ie, an Imp is a Lawful Evil creature )

Summon Monster as a first level spell:
Summon planar variant Base Creature CR: Less than 1 CR with planar trait: Less than 2

Neutral – Phantom Template
Creature appears as base creature however now is translucent blue to purple.
Creature gains the following traits;
- Increase base creatures CR by 1, no additional benefits of increased CR other than mentioned below
- Creature is incorporeal and corporeal
- Gain a Deflection bonus to AC equal to base creature’s Charisma ( minimum of +1)
- Vulnerability to Ghost Touch: +50% damage
- Incorporeal Jaunt: may become incorporeal or corporeal as a swift action
- Phantom Defense: Armor, Shield, Deflection & Natural armor bonus apply to both corporeal and incorporeal forms
- Phantom Strike: May make a single attack against corporeal targets when incorporeal but may not use a special ability or require prolonged contact for the attack

All – Water (Spell takes on alignment of caster)
Creature appears similar to base creature but is made completely from water
Creature gains the following traits;
- In addition to Outsider, gains Water subtype
- Increase base creatures CR by 1, no additional benefits of increased CR other than mentioned below
- Darkvision 60ft
- Swim speed 90’
- Gains +1 to hit and damage creatures in contact with water
- Can extinguish normal and magical fires
- Suffers a -4 to attacks and damage if fighting on land
- Immune to Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Stun, & Critical damage
If base creature’s HD is;
8-11 DR 5/-
12+ DR 10/-

The following planar traits may require one or more prerequisite memorized or learned knowledge of planar traits from above, or are only useable in higher level spells

Radiant – prerequisite: minimum of a second level spell
Creature appears similar to base creature, however is more colorful and surrounded by sparkling lights
Creature gains the following traits:
- In addition to Outsider, gains Radiant subtype
- Increase base creatures CR by 2, no additional benefits of increased CR other than mentioned below
- Creature emits light illuminating a 30ft area
- Suffers a -8 to Hide checks
- +4 to spot and search checks
- Ability Boost: Dex +4 Cha +6
- Fast Healing 2
- Immune to Blindness, Dazed, Dazzled, and Stun effects
- Other creatures that look directly at a Radiant creature make a DC 10+Cha bonus will save or become dazzled for 1d4 round, this effect if fails or wears off renders a creature immune to this effect from that creature for 24 hrs

Umbral – prerequisite: minimum of a second level spell
Creature appears similar to base creature however is completely made from shadow
Creature gains the following traits:
- In addition to Outsider, gains Shadow subtype
- Increase base creatures CR by 2, no additional benefits of increased CR other than mentioned below
- Increase base movement by 50%
- +6 bonus to hide and move silent skills
- Darkvision 120’, and can see in magical darkness
- Cold resistance of 5 + 1 per HD
- Shadowblend: As long a creature is not in full daylight an umbral creature gains total concealment
If base creature’s HD is;
4 or less Gain Feat: Evasion
5-8 Fast Healing 2
9-12 DR 5/-
16+ +2 luck bonus to saves

Entropic – prerequisite: Fiendish
Creature appears similar to base creature, however coloration is black or dark red and creature crackles with negative energy
Creature gains the following traits;
- In addition to Outsider, gains Negative energy subtype
- Increase base creatures CR by 2, no additional benefits of increased CR other than mentioned below
- Darkvision 60’
- +2 Con & Cha
- Limited Spell resistance: only to counter Positive energy or Good spells, SR= 15+HD (max 25)
- Aura of Negative energy: Any living creature within 10ft of an entropic creature suffers 1 hp damage each round, likewise undead with the same area heal 1 HP a round
- Undead creatures within 20 ft of an Entropic creature gain +4 turn resistance
- Negative Energy Ray: once every 1d4 rounds a ray of negative energy may be cast as a spell like ability. The ray has a 60ft range and must have line of sight, successful ranged touch attack inflicts 1d4 + Cha bonus in damage to living creatures or heals undead.

Vivacious – prerequisite: Celestial
Creature appears similar to base creature, however is incorporeal bathed in golden light
Creature gains the following traits;
- In addition to Outsider, gains Positive energy subtype
- Increase base creatures CR by 2, no additional benefits of increased CR other than mentioned below
- Darkvision 60’
- +2 Con & Cha
- Fast Healing 5
- Creature becomes incorporeal
- Losses Natural AC bonus, if any
- All movement types change to Flight with prefect maneuverability
- Gains an AC bonus to Deflection equal to creatures Cha bonus or 1 whichever is higher
- Positive Energy Aura: Living creatures within 10ft of a vivacious creatures heal 1 hp per round, likewise undead suffer 1 hp of damage per round within the same area
- Positive Energy Ray: Once every 1d4 round a ray of Positive energy may be cast as a spell like ability, The ray has a 60ft range and must have line of sight, successful ranged touch attacks heal 1d4+Cha bonus to living creatures and damage Undead for the same amount

- Creature also receives TWO of any of the following exceptional abilities
-Damage Reduction 10/adamantine
-Enhanced attacks: +4 to all creatures DCs
-Fast Healing 5
-Greater Damage: Increase the die damage from natural attacks by one step ( 1d4 = 1d6 etc…)
-Speed: creature is always considered to benefit as if a Haste spell was cast on it
-Immunities: Immune to 2 of the following (Acid, Fire, Electricity, Cold, Sonic, Fear, Polymorph, Mind-affects)
-Reflective Hide: effect is as if Spell Turning was always active
-Regeneration 10: can regrow major body parts
-Superior Sight: Can see in normal and magical darkness 120ft, +4 on spot and search
-Spell Resistance 10 +1/2 HD
-Gain an energy Subtype, Cold or Fire

Dr.Dead

11-25-2009, 08:33 AM

I think its just up to the DM to choose if your are able to summon the creature that you want as long the CR is the same as the spell lvl or lower.

DMMike

11-25-2009, 11:49 AM

Some things come to mind:
1) Most of the 3E summoned creatures have limited intelligence, which I think your CR system neglects. I suppose the reasoning behind this is that intelligent monsters require more of a Planar Binding type spell.
2) Why does the caster need to rest for 8 hours before summoning a particular destroyed creature again? Does that creature only exist at the mental leisure of the caster?
3) I didn't see a cleric exception. Clerics can summon too, and their gods probably don't allow contact with opposing-alignment planes.

Dr.Dead

11-25-2009, 01:01 PM

I agree a bit with DMMike but I think its just a list for all alignments

Pushkins

11-25-2009, 01:59 PM

Some things come to mind:
1) Most of the 3E summoned creatures have limited intelligence, which I think your CR system neglects. I suppose the reasoning behind this is that intelligent monsters require more of a Planar Binding type spell.
2) Why does the caster need to rest for 8 hours before summoning a particular destroyed creature again? Does that creature only exist at the mental leisure of the caster?
3) I didn't see a cleric exception. Clerics can summon too, and their gods probably don't allow contact with opposing-alignment planes.

1: in the cases of Celestial and Fiendish, the base creatures intellegence is raised to 3 if lower. that is a carry over from what those actual templates do with the current system. As for the other templates this still could be added, however the excerpt from the Complete mage, states "conjurers feel that the objects they materialize and the creatures they summon are composed of latent energy waiting to be formed by their will. They like to imagine that through spellcasting, they take control of the fundamental material of reality" which to me means they control the will of the creatures, those with a low intellegence are sunject to this more than say a very intellegent creature, who is capable of communication, Which I feel may have to involve a diplomacy check, much like Charm person does.

2: The 8 hours of rest was for the variant of summoning the exact monster again that had been destroyed. Kind of a play on the UA variant that RageofGaia mentioned, I liked it so much I had to work it in. This doesn't mean the caster would not be able to summon a different monster with the same spell or whatnot it just takes in to account that the previous creature was "injured" while summoned, and to give that exact creature time to heal or readjust to being brought to the Prime material plane again.

3: Clerics and Druids alike do have a minor exception, with the woodling template, however I feel this is something more up to a player or GM to oversee, since even clerics are given weapons, but they just all don't go out crushing skulls, since for the Goodly type clerics this would be frowned upon by their diety. Thus so a player would have to take heed his/her diety's wishes and fancy when summoning monsters

tesral

11-26-2009, 11:55 AM

It gets called "summon speed bump" around here. I see the problem with the spell is the writers didn't really want the magician getting anything that could actually challenge the opponent.

I see the basic nerfing of the spell book all over.

I also agree with the whole planer thing. I would rather not even worry about is as well I hate alignment. So they come from wherever, where is not important.

D20 Xanatos

11-27-2009, 02:50 AM

The first thing listed in the "Roleplaying Game Manifesto" from the "Guardians of Order" says: "These rules are written on paper, not etched in stone tablets."

That being said, take an edit the game as you see fit. However, do it within reason.

Concentrate alignment restriction as though you were a cleric selecting your deity. Keep the alignment in common by atleast one variable. Whether you are both chaotic, both neutral or what have you.

Honestly, I fail to see the big deal. If you want to summon a celestial scorpion aproximate it's CR and alignment, and slap the damn template on the creature. (Although I fail to see the benefit of summoning a celestial scorpion)

As far as the rest required to summon a destroyed creature, it makes perfect sense to me. And it's not that "the creature only exists at the caster's leisure". I figure that it took a great deal of magical concentration to manifest this creature on the material plane. As a result, summoning that exact creature again after it's destruction would cause the same amount of effort if not more. (Imagine trying to stir someone who's only had 4 hours of sleep in 3 days). Perhaps it takes more energy than normal as you are also restoring this creature to a material existence after it's demise.

(On a side note, I read earlier that someone was opposed to alignments. I'd like to begin by saying, I respect your opinion. However, I feel that alignments are necessary for categorizing character archetypes, but not for complete character restriction (as they are just a basis to start a character concept). Otherwise you have people assuming it's okay to play an evil Paladin and so on.)

tesral

11-27-2009, 02:56 AM

(On a side note, I read earlier that someone was opposed to alignments. I'd like to begin by saying, I respect your opinion. However, I feel that alignments are necessary for categorizing character archetypes, but not for complete character restriction (as they are just a basis to start a character concept). Otherwise you have people assuming it's okay to play an evil Paladin and so on.)

Out of the Box; the Conundrum of Alignment (http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/fantasy/alignment.html)

Yea, I've made this argument that often.

Sascha

11-27-2009, 11:57 AM

(Although I fail to see the benefit of summoning a celestial scorpion)
It's just a matter of alignment. A character may not want to summon fiendish critters, but may still want a scorpion or spider; by the list, it's not possible to summon a non-Evil arachnid or centipede (or non-Good bee or beetle).

d-_-b

11-27-2009, 04:43 PM

If it is merely a question of applying a fiendish or divine template I must admit to not seeing the big problem. The list of summonable monsters, just as the rules of the game, should never be read as if they were writ in stone. If it is a question of summoning a divine scorpion over a fiendish one it should be a small matter of working it out with the GM.

I do, however, agree that the CR of summoned monsters are generally puny compared to the caster but we need to remember that the caster will normally be able to summon several monsters AND still be able to fire of a literal barrage of magic missiles and fireballs. If the monsters were of a comparable CR to the caster it would make the caster hugely powerful. A typical 1st. level mage would be able to cast Summon Monster I at least 3 or 4 times producing 3-4 CR 1 monsters which would be an apt challenge for a party of 3rd. level characters.

Pushkins

11-28-2009, 04:10 AM

besides the arguement of alignment, only issue or concern I'm hearing is the CR should be "puny" as to the level of the caster.

As is with the spell itself the summon monster I Can make a cr 1 creature, for 1 round. Not really a true challenge since it's a 1/2 HD creature base to begin with, 2 HP , not much against 3rd level party. Even at summon monster vi you end up with a 5 CR base creature or native, a potent force, but that caster had to be at least 12th level, or 18th level casting for
Monster Summon 9 to get a 8hd creature

eh, gate would be better then

tesral

11-28-2009, 10:25 AM

besides the arguement of alignment, only issue or concern I'm hearing is the CR should be "puny" as to the level of the caster.

As is with the spell itself the summon monster I Can make a cr 1 creature, for 1 round. Not really a true challenge since it's a 1/2 HD creature base to begin with, 2 HP , not much against 3rd level party. Even at summon monster vi you end up with a 5 CR base creature or native, a potent force, but that caster had to be at least 12th level, or 18th level casting for
Monster Summon 9 to get a 8hd creature

eh, gate would be better then

Like I said, "summon speed bump".

Pushkins

11-30-2009, 12:12 AM

Since this spell is more apt to a person who has spent time to learn the planes, I cracked open the Planeswalker book from the "old" D&D there are a few changes I still need to make and maybe some recalibrating of the re-made spell

All in all Alignment is a force of this game, whether you feel it's a general guideline or a strict dogma to adhere to, either way it's all on the style of role-play as to how you use it. But, The planes are constructed based on the alignment structure. For me, alignment is a guideline that serves to remind me of how to role-play out a character, and for the purpose of plane travel or in this case Summon Monster it takes some of the fuss and mush out of things.

So that said, there are a few planes I missed, and a few specialized celestial and fiendish planes I want to further elaborate on

Update to come

nijineko

11-30-2009, 02:01 AM

regardless of how one feels about the alignment issue(s), thank you for your work and interesting ideas. always useful to me to get another angle and/or point of view.

Pushkins

11-30-2009, 09:05 AM

Thanks everyone for the points of view and discussion on this.

Tesral has become my litmus test of D&D blue on this spell rework. I respect your opinion, not that I don't respect that of others, I do.
However, Tesral's distain of alignments is in true fashion of the game, thus needs to be worked in.

btw, it's Planescapes not planeswalker.
A few areas I am addressing are the other 8 inner meta-planes, addressing Limbo as a counter to mechanus. Further dividing celestial and fiendish types to unlock higher planes like Arcadia and Baator, and there is a feat or two I need to address making this change to the spell that have been affected