I just joined this forum this week, but have been amazed at all of the incredible expertise here. Today I tried to incorporate some of your great ideas into my standard Neapolitan-style pie which uses Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and a ripened starter.

I autolysed the dough after incorporating all of the ingredients

I used Varasano's new and improved Patsy's sauce clone

I ended up with a hydration of about 68%, although I save about 15% of the flour for the very end of the machine kneading and for the bench for hand kneading. So during the main kneading, the water is about 78%. But it seems the autolysing required more flour at the end to reach to texture I am used to. Usually, I end up with 70% final hydration. Remember, though I am at 7000' above sea level and everything I bake (breads, cakes, etc.) requires more liquid than at sea level. This is a topic I'd like to explore more. My experience is that adding all of the flour at the start results in a tougher crust. I like mine chewy but tender and I've found adding some flour after all of the dough has pulled into a ball on the dough hook and also during a short hand kneading helps make it tender. Thoughts?

Here is my prep:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/prep.jpg)

Here is a pie in the oven (floor temp ~ 750F):

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pie.jpg)

Here is a finished pie:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/done.jpg)

What I learned:

Autolysing seems to improve the flavor and texture of the final product. I need to try many more pizzas to get a better handle on this.

Varasano's Patsy's Clone sauce was better than any sauce I've ever made. I followed his instructions to the letter.

Thanks to all of you for pointing me in the right direction. I've entered a new, higher level in my pizza making quest.

glad to have you Bill...nice proofing box you got there. Seeing all the ingrediants in one place like that almost would make a great picture to hang on anyones kitchen wall.... I just received my Caputo flour so I'm new with this type of flour. But I think I will also have to add more flour to the mix to get the right consistency after autolyse. Where do you have that pizza oven is that in your home? or outside...just wondering I know pft is trying to get his hands on building one at his home. I'm going to track down that Patsys sauce clone you mentioned by varasano...thats what makes this sight great..everyones ideas coming together to make one awesome pie... Keep it going!! and send in your pics...

Your latest effort looks magnificent. I'm glad the autolyse worked out for you. Flour, it seems, needs to absorb water at an optimal rate and then the flavor explodes. A rest period, in my experience, combined with a proper mixing and stretching regimen produces excellent results every time.

Thank you for the help and encouragement. I hope I can be of help once you make the jump to a log burner. A whole new world of challenges opens up:

Sourcing a reliable and economical source of seasoned, pesticide-free hardwoodStarting and managing a fire (so VERY, VERY important!)Baking with a live fireTurning/juggling multiple pizzas through a small openingKeeping critters out of your outdoor kitchenKeeping friends and neighbors from trying to get you to deliver pizzas and so much more. Lot's of new challenges, but worth it if you are a pizza fanatic!

I'd be curious to know what the metal container is that is in your "proofing" box. I wondered whether it contains water to provide humidity. Also, did you use any commercial yeast, or is the high rise in the dough due strictly to the strength of your preferment and/or high hydration levels? Finally, can you tell us what recipe you have been using?

Even though you are at a high altitude, you might want to track fellow member Friz's experiments with autolyse at the A16 thread. He also has the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and is trying to find ways to improve the dough for home oven applications, in part to compensate for the fact that most of our members are not as fortunate as you to have a wood-fired oven.

What you see is a ceramic bowl containing warm water to increase the humidity in the proofing box. I use a small amount of SAF IDY in the dough. I'm not sure what your definition is of a high-rise. During fermentation and proofing, I think this batch rose no more than 50% in volume. What do you aim for?

Here is the recipe for the dough I used today. Next time I intend to decrease the water to see what happens.

Looking at the height of your dough in the oven, I speculated that you might have used 1) a bit of commercial yeast, 2) a lot of preferment, 3) a high hydration level, or 4) a combination of one or more of the above. When I have used a recipe like yours, but without the preferment, I have usually looked for a doubling of the dough, but at room temperature. When I have used only a natural preferment, I hardly see any rise in the dough at all.

I note that the amount of preferment you used, about 5 oz. or so, represents a baker's percent of around 25%. With my preferment, that would come to a bit less than 10 tablespoons. Sometime you may want to try using only a preferment, with no commercial yeast at all. If my math is correct, the hydration percent was around 68%, which is quite good to achieve in a 00 dough without its being wet.

One of the interesting things about your recipe is the long knead times. In the past, I could understand the theory behind such long knead times, but that was when many of the 00 flours were low in protein/gluten and needed long knead times to properly develop the gluten. But the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour has a 11.5-12.5% protein content and would seem not to require such long knead times to develop the gluten. It might be worth experimenting with the Caputo 00 flour to see what results you achieve using much shorter knead times.

Thank you for your great suggestions. I will try to both eliminate the commercial yeast and reduce the kneading time. If I let the dough ferment in the refrigerator for a day or 2, how long do you think I should let it proof at room temp. Normally, I poke my finger into the dough and if it doesn't spring right back, it's time to stretch and bake (~ 90 minutes). How do you know when its ready?

Regarding kneading time: I make a Roman-style pizza bianco (a la Antico Forno in Campo dei Fiori) which uses KA bread flour in a dough that is also very wet and it also takes a very long time to develop the gluten, so maybe it has something to do with the altitude rather than the flour. The way I know my pizza dough has been kneaded enough is when it comes together in a ball on speed #2 of a KA mixer. I could reach this point quicker if I use a higher speed or if I reduce the hydration. Which would you use and what do you use to determine when the dough has been adequately kneaded?

The questions you pose are not particularly easy to answer in a way that will be completely satisfying and make your dough making life a lot easier. Recently, fellow member scott r asked similar questions, and I tried to answer them at Reply #3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1299.0.html. You might find it helpful to read that reply, as well as scott's post, to keep the questions and answers in context. But, basically the answer to how long you should let a dough rise is determined by the temperature of the dough (which is affected by room temperature, water temperature and machine friction temperature) and the type, amount and leavening strength of the yeast used (e.g., commercial vs. natural preferment). The amount of salt used and the hydration levels used will also have an effect, although not quite as pronounced as the other factors.

In my experiments with the Caputo 00 flour, a natural preferment, high hydration, and long room temperature rises, I used very small amounts of preferment (as little as 1/2 t.) and was able to get over 30 hours at room temperature before using. I used the preferment in a range of 1-5% by weight of water. The dough hardly rose at all, so I relied on time more than anything else to know when the dough might be ready. In your situation, you will have to do the same thing and experiment to find what the outer limits of your dough are. I'm a bit hesitant to tell you to go and read the posts at the Caputo 00 and Caputo 00 Biga thread, but that is where I described the experiments I conducted with the Caputo 00 flour and preferments and the results I achieved. Much of what I discussed there seems pertinent to what you are doing with your 00 doughs.

As for your questions on kneading, I tend to look more at the condition of the dough to know when it has been kneaded enough. I try not to use the higher machine speeds but rather do almost all the kneading at stir and 1 speeds, even if it takes a bit longer to get to the dough condition I am looking for. I have also found that I can get pretty high hydration levels by gradually adding the flour to the water, letting the dough rest a bit from time to time to hydrate better, and continue to add water until the dough can no longer take on any more water. I have done this with 00 flour also. The dough at that point can be pretty wet, but this is the condition that our Neapolitan expert and fellow member pizzanapoletana (Marco) tries to achieve when he makes his doughs (he also has a wood-fired oven). The ideal room temperature for fermentation/ripening purposes according to Marco is around 65 degrees F. Since it's hard for me to get that temperature in Texas when it is warm, I tend to temperature adjust the water (lower it) to slow down the fermentation rate.

BTW, you might be interested in knowing that Molino Caputo, the miller of the Caputo 00 flour, also recommends long knead times (close to a total of 30 minutes) for the Caputo doughs. This continues to puzzle me. Maybe Marco can enlighten us on this aspect of the kneading process.

This is what fascinates me so much about pizza dough. Just a few simple ingredients, but there is nothing simple at all about it. It's not like making, say a sauce, where you can taste, adjust, taste, adjust etc. until you have it just right. Each decision you make along the way is locked-in with no way to know the results until much later. I guess it takes a sick mind to find pleasure in this process.

Since I want to change only one variable at a time, the next thing I'll do is simply redcue the amount of water and keep everything else the same. If that makes an improvement, I'll reduce it some more the next time and keep doing it until I discover tha optimum amount. I though I had this one down, but autolysing has changed everything, I think. Stay tuned.