1 DAY 2 Wednesday, 12th January 2000 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving 3MR IRVING: May it please your Lordship. This morning I wish 4to kick off by playing to the court excerpts from two, or 5possibly three, video tapes which are of relevance. I 6will explain what the video tapes are, if I may, my Lord. 7The first one is one minute 20 seconds long. It is a 8postwar German newsreel, January 1948, and the very first 9section on it, fortunately, is the reporting of the end of 10the Auschwitz trial where a number of Defendants, rather 11as at Nuremberg, had been prosecuted on this occasion by 12the Polish Government. Auschwitz is in Poland. They had 13been prosecuted for crimes against humanity, and sentence 14was passed a week or two before this trial, before this 15newsreel was shown. 16 So it is a newsreel showing the judge handing 17down sentence. The relevance is purely the newsreel 18statement from the judge's findings of how many people 19died in Auschwitz which is a matter of contention. We are 20told by the expert witnesses in this case that anybody who 21says the figure is less than is now commonly assumed is a 22"Holocaust denier". I purely wish to show that there is 23a broad band of opinion over the years as to what the 24figures were 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: The judge is expressing whatever view he does 26express on the basis of, what, the evidence he had heard

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1during the course of the trial or what? 2MR IRVING: A very lengthy trial, which ended with the 3execution of a number of people. We see on this short 4film the hearing of evidence, the hearing of witness 5statements, the taking of depositions, the forensic 6examination of the site which makes the statement that he 7utters all the more important. My Lord, do you have the 8short transcript of the passage? I have it in German 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I have, I do not think I know where it 10is. I have not seen it 11MR IRVING: I can provide one, my Lord 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or has it been handed in? Is it somewhere in 13the files because there are a few loose documents 14MR IRVING: There is one. If I can kick off by showing that 15excerpt 16MR IRVING: It is a tracking error, I think, my Lord 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are having a quite a task if you are 18trying to cope with that as well as everything else. I do 19not know if there is anyone else around who is more 20conversant with it than you are? We are getting a sound 21now. Shall we come back to that one? It may be we do not 22get the same problem with your next one 23MR IRVING: Let me just read out what the translation is, if 24I may 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please do 26MR IRVING: This is a translation of the German text:

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1 "In Cracow the trial of the principal culprits 2for the Auschwitz concentration camp came to an end before 3a Polish court. The Defendants were German camp guards or 4members of the German camp administration staff. 5Unheard-of atrocities against the camp inmates, 6particularly against female prisoners, were proved against 7them. Altogether nearly 300,000 people" -- this is the 8part I am relying upon, my Lord -- "from the most 9different nations died in the Auschwitz concentration 10camp. The court sentenced 23 of the accused to death, six 11to life sentences and 10 to lengthy jail terms; one was 12acquitted". 13 It then continues with the same statement: "The 14Auschwitz concentration camp remains as it stands today, 15as a monument of shame to the lasting memory of its 16300,000 victims". Of course, nowadays, my Lord, we are 17told a very different picture of Auschwitz, but that was 18within the immediacy of the event 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate that no one is being too fussed, 20I understand why not, about the admissibility of the 21evidence, but this reads to me not like the judge or the 22court talking but some sort of newsreel 23MR IRVING: It is a German official newsreel produced in early 241948 at the time that Germany was under allied occupation 25and all the media outlets in Germany were licensed by the 26allied authorities

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but, I mean, in terms of evidence, I am 2not sure this has terribly much weight, does it 3MR IRVING: Except, my Lord, for two arguments here: firstly, 4if the allegation is that anybody who states figure less 5than one million or 4 million, whichever figure we look 6at, for Auschwitz is a Holocaust denier, then, denial, 7apparently started very early; and, secondly, if this was 8one of the documents before me at the time I wrote my 9book, my Lord, then I could hardly be accused of 10manipulation or distortion if I choose to rely on this 11document rather than on the evidence of someone like 12Rudolf Hess 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where am I going to put it because I think we 14must have a system of finding a home for every document 15that is handed in, if you are going to rely on it 16MR IRVING: My Lord, that should be in the bundles of 17transcripts, in my submission 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Perhaps the Defendants can help because let 19us be sensible about putting them were they belong 20 MR RAMPTON: Yes. I suspect what is going to happen during the 21course of this trial is that we are going to create new 22files as we go along. The resources of Her Majesty's 23courts probably do not run to that. So I think what we 24had better do is, as these documents build up, is put them 25in files -- this is a document I have never seen before 26either -- and try to provide an identical file for each

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1person in the court who will need to look at it 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I do not want to spend undue time on 3it, but in some ways it is better to try to find them a 4spot in the existing bundles where they logically belong 5rather than having a, sort of, rather random new file 6created with whatever happens to turn up 7 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is probably right. The only place I can 8think of to put this at the moment is with Mr Irving's 9statement 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that may be right 11MR IRVING: In my statement 12 MR RAMPTON: It has no other natural home that I can think of 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that may be right 14MR IRVING: Now, I add to your Lordship's misery by giving you 15the transcript of the video which we will now show 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. For the time being, at any rate, we 17shall put this in C4, shall we? Is that what you mean, 18Mr Rampton 19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I think it is C4. Unfortunately, mine do not 20any longer correspond to the numbers -- nor does 21Miss Rogers' 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: The other thing is we need a hole puncher 23 MR RAMPTON: Tab 1, C4, my Lord 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is what I thought, at the back 25 MR RAMPTON: This next one, what is the number of the 26transcript file? The next one goes in D(ii). I do not

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1know which of the D(ii)s it will be; I have a feeling it 2is already there actually 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is worth spending just a little bit of 4time on this sort of thing at the moment because then we 5can get the system right for the future 6 MR RAMPTON: D(ii), tab -- my Lord, the best place for it is at 7the back of the second volume of D(ii) where it will have 8a new tab No. 23 9MR IRVING: I believe I am right in saying that this transcript 10was not already provided by the Defendants; this is a new 11transcript 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think that is right. I think that is 13accepted. Shall we play it now 14MR IRVING: My Lord, can I just explain what it is 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 16MR IRVING: This is a transcript of a tape of a news programme 17broadcasted in Australia on July 20th 1994 on ABC 18Television in Australia. It is a typical kind of news 19commentary programme, rather like News Night, which starts 20off with the news bulletin and then follows with a 21feature. The feature on this occasion was a feature 22called "The Big Lie". I do not propose to run the whole 23tape, but to start about three minutes in where I have 24positioned it as at the present which is page 2 near the 25top, my Lord. Mr Anthony Lerman of ---- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes

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1MR IRVING: --- the Institute of Jewish affairs is about to 2start speaking. The reason I am playing it is because 3your Lordship will see that this interview provides the 4Second Defendant, Professor Lipstadt, with a chance to 5express her opinions unopposed 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 7MR IRVING: I feel it is appropriate to allow her some minutes 8of the court's time in this rather oblique manner to 9express her opinions 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 11MR IRVING: I understand that she will not be testifying in 12person in this case 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 14 (Excerpt of video was played)15MR IRVING: My Lord, I pause very briefly there and invite your 16attention to one scene in the newsreel that is being 17displaced, black and white newsreel, where we are no 18longer outside the railroad trucks filming the people 19climbing into the railroad trucks, but the camera has 20suddenly positioned itself inside the railroad trucks. 21 I am not going to draw any inferences from that 22at this moment, my Lord, but we are suddenly inside a 23darkened railway truck, taking a shot from the inside to 24the outside as people climb in towards us 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 26MR IRVING: That is the only point I make, my Lord. My Lord,

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1this is Professor van Pelt who will be testifying in this 2case. This is the actual building which we will be 3talking quite a lot about over the coming weeks, 4crematorium No. 2 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: At Auschwitz 6MR IRVING: At Auschwitz -- correction, at Birkenhau, my Lord, 7which is five miles from Auschwitz 8MR IRVING: My Lord 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that all you want from that, Mr Irving 10MR IRVING: Yes. Your Lordship will see from the transcript 11the rest concerns Rwanda ---- 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have read on and I did not think there 13was anything in the rest of it 14MR IRVING: Unless the Defendants object, I would not propose 15to play the rest of the tape 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure they will not 17 MR RAMPTON: No 18MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not know if you consider that was a 19useful exercise? I would welcome your Lordship's guidance 20on ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, to be frank, I think not very. In the 22end we have to get down to the specific criticisms of your 23historical approach 24MR IRVING: Yes 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: How we are quite going to deal with it, I do 26not know, but I think that is what has to be grappled with

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1and, from my point of view, the sooner the better 2MR IRVING: We are also concerned with the Second Defendant 3here. My Lord, I understand she will not be having a 4chance to speak and I will not be having a chance to 5cross-examine her. I think it was a useful exercise 6because it gave us a chance to see her in action. I think 7she could have handled herself under cross-examination, 8had she proposed to do so 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are entitled to make the point that she 10is, apparently, not going to give evidence. I have that 11point and I have now had the opportunity of seeing her on 12the interview 13MR IRVING: The other point I wish to draw attention to in the 14video is that the other witness who will be called, 15Professor van Pelt, draws great attention to the building 16he was standing on which was crematorium No. 2 in 17Birkenhau. He points to the holes, he points to the 18room. He says, "This is where it happened". In another 19video which I will show on another occasion, my Lord, he 20goes into much greater detail more emotionally saying, 21 "This is where it happened, this was the geographical 22centre of the Holocaust", and so on 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that is a post war reconstruction 24MR IRVING: No, my Lord. We say something different about 25that. This is crematorium building in Birkenhau. What we 26say about that is that it was not what the Defence make

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1out that it was. With your Lordship's permission and 2consent, I do not want to reveal precisely the arguments 3we will lead on this occasion. We will give the Defence 4great time to prepare counter arguments and we have spent 5a great deal of time and money with architectural 6consultants and so on providing this evidence. I would 7prefer to leave that evidence ---- 8 MR RAMPTON: Can I intervene to say something about that? I do 9not find myself left very happy about what Mr Irving has 10just said. The days are long gone where a Claimant who 11responds to a plea of justification is entitled to keep 12his rabbits in his back pocket and pull them out when it 13suits him so as to deprive the other side of due notice so 14that they can deal with it. If he is sitting on expert 15reports, expert evidence, as indeed he flagged up 16yesterday in his opening that he was, then we must have 17them 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right. Can we just take 19stock at the moment, Mr Irving, and see where we are 20going? You did, I think, say you were intending to show 21three videos. Are you really wanting to show a third 22one 23MR IRVING: I sense a certain impatience of your Lordship 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope I am not displaying impatience. I am 25just telling you how I see the priorities. I am not 26impatient

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1MR IRVING: Possibly when we come to the Auschwitz phase, it 2will be useful to show the next one which does concentrate 3much more closely on the fabric of the sites of Auschwitz 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I ask you, following up what you told me 5yesterday about the misunderstanding, whether it is or it 6is not agreed that Auschwitz should be taken separately 7and first 8MR IRVING: We have agreed that, my Lord, and we have reached a 9very satisfactory arrangement on the presentation of our 10principal witnesses from overseas 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very good to know. Your opening is 12really concluded now, as I understand it 13MR IRVING: That is so, my Lord 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: So I think probably, unless you tell me that 15there is something else you want to deal with first, the 16time has come for you to start giving evidence 17MR IRVING: What I had proposed to do this morning, my Lord, 18the bundle which I submitted this morning and replicates 19bundle D(ii), I think, which we have already had, which is 20a very large number of photocopies of all the books which 21I have ever written, apparently, which have been very ably 22put together by the Defendants. I had put together a 23selection of pages from those books on which I was going 24to draw your attention, passages which would refute 25statements that had been made by the Defendants and also 26by counsel yesterday

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: In relation to Auschwitz 2MR IRVING: No, my Lord. Do I am apprehend that your Lordship 3wishes to deal immediately with Auschwitz or other 4different phases 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if we are going to divide up the trial, 6and I can see the sense of it, into Auschwitz and the 7rest, it seems to me at the moment, and Mr Rampton may 8take a different view, I do not know, that it is sensible 9really to plunge into the issues that arise out of 10Auschwitz rather than going to anything else, because the 11time for doing that may be when we get to the second, as 12it were, half of the trial 13MR IRVING: My Lord, the Auschwitz matter is an immensely 14complicated matter involving the assembly of a great deal 15of expert material, drawings. The Defendants deluged me 16on Friday evening after close of business with a further 175,000 pages of documents from van Pelt's report. To start 18straightaway today with that would put me at a 19gross disadvantage. I am sorry that there may be a 20misunderstanding. The agreement we reached was on the 21dates of presentation of our witnesses from beyond the 22seas, van Pelt in the case of the Defence and Professor 23McDonald in my case, and I was still hoping and 24anticipating we could deal with the reputation aspect 25first which is well prepared, and push Auschwitz along 26away from us for a while

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you say "for a while", I mean how long 2is the while 3MR IRVING: As long as is necessary for me to deal with the 4reputation aspects of the case 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do see the sense of your 6establishing, I think by evidence, your reputation. I do 7not myself think that will take very long because, bear in 8mind, I have read a lot of the material. That is not to 9say I do not want to hear you say it from the witness box 10in summary 11MR IRVING: My Lord, you have read it, but the Press have not 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but the exercise is not really entirely 13for the members of the Press. I do not think we want to 14take a lot of time in dealing with matters which are not 15uncontentious, but which, perhaps, are not at the heart of 16what is the true issue between the parties. I am very 17anxious we get on if we can as soon as possible. 18 Can I just see what Mr Rampton would suggest as 19the appropriate course? I think my own view is that 20Mr Irving ought to go into the witness box from now on 21because I think the case has really been opened. I see 22the sense of hearing some evidence about his reputation by 23way of preliminary 24 MR RAMPTON: I have read his witness statement. Apart from 25what he said in his opening yesterday, I really have no 26clue, no real clue, about what his case is on the detailed

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1factual issues. I am in the same position as your 2Lordship found yourself yesterday or said you did 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 4 MR RAMPTON: I would like to know what his case is and I do 5not 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I understand that 7 MR RAMPTON: I do not mind what order he takes to do that. If 8he wants to saturate with his historiographical issues, 9his techniques and the inaccuracies of the criticisms 10which we have made, that is no problem to me at all. 11Whether he does it from the witness box or whether he does 12it as part of his opening, again I really do not mind 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think it is terribly important, 14but I think it probably is properly done by evidence 15rather than by further opening statements 16 MR RAMPTON: I agree. If he says he is not yet prepared to 17deal with the Auschwitz issues because they are, indeed, 18detailed and complicated, that is perfectly all right with 19us, but I do want to know what his case is and at the 20moment I do not 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, his case is to be found not only in his 22witness statement plainly but in the pleadings 23 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I have some of his case from the reply 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is quite comprehensive, it 25appeared to me, on the extent to which Hitler is 26responsible for the Final Solution, relatively speaking

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1 MR RAMPTON: Yes, relatively 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not, if I may say so, Mr Irving, very 3detailed in relation to Auschwitz. I have the broad 4thrust of your case, but I think there is a lack of 5detail 6MR IRVING: My Lord, I am ignorant of the rules of procedure in 7this matter. Would it be possible for me to be examined 8in the witness box on two occasions? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Let us get clear what is being 10proposed. It is being proposed that there should be a 11division of this trial really into two separate 12compartments, one is Auschwitz which is to an extent a 13free standing issue, it seems to me, a discrete issue. 14The other is all the other issues, such as the bombing of 15Dresden, Hitler's responsibility for the Final Solution, 16and so on. Obviously, they are not wholly separate, but 17I think they can be taken separately for the purposes of 18the trial 19MR IRVING: My Lord, I think a perfectly satisfactory solution 20which the court will, no doubt, find favour with is that 21I will go into the witness box today and submit myself to 22cross-examination on my pleadings, on the statements that 23I have made, on the correspondence that I have submitted 24to the other parties, on my opening statement and whatever 25other matters they choose to put to me. I will answer 26from the baggage that I carry around in my memory. No

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1doubt, I will have the opportunity at a later date, 2possibly when I can go back to my diaries or other papers, 3to produce materials that I could not produce from 4memory. I am sure this would be an adequate solution to 5the problem 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I make a suggestion and then you can 7both, if you would like to, comment because I am very 8conscious you are in person and this is, for obvious 9reasons, not an easy case for you to conduct in person, 10but what I would suggest is that you now go into the 11witness box, that you deal with your reputation and your 12published works and so on, and you can take it that I have 13read your witness statement, that you then state, at any 14rate in broad outline, what your case is on Auschwitz -- 15I am perfectly happy, as it were, to help you along by 16asking you questions and then you can elaborate in your 17answers -- and then for Mr Rampton to cross-examine you in 18relation to Auschwitz, 19MR IRVING: At a later date 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, straight off, why not? We are dealing 21with that issue first 22MR IRVING: Very well 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then we will have, I do not know whether this 24will work in terms of timing, the expert evidence in 25relation to Auschwitz, hopefully, from your expert and 26from Professor van Pelt. Then you will have the

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1opportunity to make submissions about it either at the 2very end of the case or, perhaps, at an earlier stage. 3Does that sound a sensible way of proceeding to you 4MR IRVING: I am not too happy about being cross-examined on 5Auschwitz because our work on that is not complete. Your 6Lordship may consider this is irrelevant, whether our work 7on that is completed or not, because I am being asked 8about my own work and my own writings, and things that 9I may find out in the future are neither here nor there 10which is the phrase that I used yesterday, but I am sure 11your Lordship will have my interests at heart 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am very anxious that you should say 13whatever it is you want to say. Your case should be fully 14deployed. But the case has been brewing a very long 15time. I am a bit alarmed to hear that you are not, as it 16were, fully up to speed on the Auschwitz issue 17MR IRVING: We have been fully up to speed repeatedly, my Lord, 18with all the indications of that phrase. Every time we 19thought we were up to speed, we then received a fresh 20avalanche of binders with further documents 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, plus the 5,000 pages on Friday 22MR IRVING: Indeed, and more during the weekend 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you be content to proceed along the 24lines I have indicated and if you reach a point where, for 25example, Mr Rampton is putting to you a document which you 26have not had a chance to look at before, then you make

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1that point and ---- 2MR IRVING: Precisely. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- we ask him, perhaps, to go on to some 4other point? 5MR IRVING: I believe that the present atmosphere and climate 6of opinion in court is, as Mr Rampton rather indicated, it 7is not fair to sand bag your opponents with surprise 8materials. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very much the way in which litigation 10is now conducted. 11MR IRVING: And we certainly have not done so. I found it 12mildly offensive that the Defendant should imply that we 13had. I have subjected the Defendants to a stream of 14questions over the last few weeks on their reports which, 15clearly, indicates which way we are thinking. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, may I now ask Mr Rampton whether he is 17happy to proceed in the way I have just outlined? 18 MR RAMPTON: I will proceed in any way your Lordship wants; the 19problem I have starting straightaway with Auschwitz is 20simply a practical one. I do not have my Auschwitz papers 21here. I have to go and get them. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 23 MR RAMPTON: We will not get to Auschwitz today? In that case, 24there is no problem, I can start tomorrow. If I do not 25have to cross-examine today, then I do not have any 26problem at all. I will start wherever it pleases your

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1Lordship tomorrow. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: But, in principle, the idea of dealing with 3Auschwitz separately is one that I believe you are in 4favour of? 5 MR RAMPTON: Yes. We were given an indication that Mr Irving's 6opening in evidence-in-chief would take us up to about the 7end of the week after next, that is to say, until Monday, 824th January, which is why Professor van Pelt is not here 9at the moment. So, in that sense I have a slight 10reluctance to start on Auschwitz until he gets here. It 11is not an overwhelming reluctance by any means at all. 12I can quite easily, on the other hand, start with 13something completely different. I can start with issues 14arising from Professor Evans' report without any problem 15at all. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: He covers really the whole gamut. 17 MR RAMPTON: I know. From your Lordship's point of view, that 18is perhaps a little inconvenient. The alternative -- it 19is one I do not advance with any great warmth -- is to 20adjourn this case until the beginning of next week by 21which time Mr Irving should be up to speed on Auschwitz. 22 I say that for this reason. Although it is 23perfectly true that the source documents were served on 24him last week, Van Pelt's report, the fact is that a very 25large number of those reports, documents, plans are 26illustrated in van Pelt's report; that they have been

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1available in the archives in Auschwitz and in Moscow for a 2very long time. The main report was served at the end of 3July last year. I do not have all of that much sympathy 4with Mr Irving -- I have some, of course, because he is in 5person. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think the point you make is actually 7a fair one, that Professor van Pelt makes his point in his 8report without actually exhibiting the source material, 9but it is pretty obvious what he is saying. 10MR IRVING: My Lord, it is not. Architectural consultants who 11have asked us for detailed drawings of many levels of the 12construction work that went on over a period. They need 13to know where the light switches were, that kind of 14thing. You cannot see that kind of information from the 15rather smudgey photocopies that were exhibited to the 16report. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 18 MR RAMPTON: You do not do any better if you look at the nice 19coloured photographs which Professor van Pelt has now 20produced in that regard. They are just better copies of 21what he has already reproduced. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am very reluctant to adjourn the case. 23I really think we have to get on for obvious reasons. 24MR IRVING: My Lord, can we not start the cross-examination on 25non-Auschwitz matters which will certainly take us up to 26the weekend? I am sure Mr Rampton has a any number of

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1questions he is curious about. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am perfectly easy. I think you had between 3you reached agreement. It appears, perhaps, that is not 4really right. I do not mind in which order we take 5things. I think there is something to be said for taking 6Auschwitz first, but if you prefer that it was dealt with 7the other way round, that is fine. 8 MR RAMPTON: I can deal with a whole range of different topics, 9not necessarily in an orderly fashion. That is the 10trouble. What I am anxious to avoid is when I do get to 11Auschwitz in cross-examination, perhaps it might be 12tomorrow, for example, Mr Irving says, "Well, I am sorry, 13I cannot answer that, I have not had time to think about 14it or to instruct myself". That is absolutely hopeless. 15He then comes back, having heard my questions, and we have 16to start all over again. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see that. 18 MR RAMPTON: I am not really interested in attributing blame 19for these things. He is obviously not up to speed on 20Auschwitz and I do not really want to cross-examine him on 21it until he is because it is an unfair contest, apart from 22anything else. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us do it the other way round then. Let 24us take the other issues. That is really a course that 25you prefer, is it not? 26MR IRVING: That was my original proposal, my Lord.

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1 MR RAMPTON: When Professor van Pelt gets here (which is the 2week after next, I think) then I will start on Auschwitz 3because that, I would think, would have given Mr Irving 4enough time 5MR IRVING: We are looking forward to it, in fact 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will proceed on the opposite basis of 7taking all the other issues 8MR IRVING: I am indebted, my Lord 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is up to you in which order you deal with 10them, but you will start with your reputation and history 11which I think you can take quite ---- 12MR IRVING: In cross-examination 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, this is in chief 14MR IRVING: Right 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then it is really entirely up to you, 16I think, how much you want to say in chief, and it is not 17very easy for you to do because in a sense you will be 18making a speech from the witness box, or whether you want 19to simply submit yourself to cross-examination on these 20various other issues, Dresden, Hitler's role, and the 21like 22MR IRVING: The court would simply certainly prefer for reasons 23of integrity that the evidence should be under oath 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would, I think that is the right way of 25doing it 26MR IRVING: Then the sooner I go into the witness box,

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1therefore, the better. That may well speed things up 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So you are happy to proceed in that 3way 4MR IRVING: I am happy to proceed in that way, provided the 5Auschwitz stage is left until later on 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is going to be. Mr Rampton, you are 7content with that as well 8 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I agree to that. I will find something else 9to start with 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure you will. Mr Irving, the next 11problem, and you can really choose whichever you prefer, 12that is the witness box. If you find it more convenient 13to stay where you, I am perfectly happy if Mr Rampton is 14happy at this stage anyway, for the evidence to be given 15from there. When it comes to cross-examination, the 16position may be different because I do not see that you 17can really cross-examine along a row. But it may be 18easier for Mr Irving to stay where he is for the time 19being 20 MR RAMPTON: That is what Miss Rogers suggested. It is a good 21idea. He has all his papers there. When he gets to be 22cross-examined, we may have to have a break while he gets 23all the stuff up there because I cannot cross-examine side 24by side 25MR IRVING: I would prefer, my Lord, the first part of the 26cross-examination should be done from box, but when we

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1come to the Auschwitz stage where we will have papers, 2I might revert to your Lordship's original proposal, that 3it should be continued with me standing here 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will see about that when the time comes. 5But would you prefer to give your evidence-in-chief ---- 6MR IRVING: I would prefer to give it from the traditional 7place 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Unless you want to deal with anything else, 9I think you ought to go and be sworn 10MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. At some stage, of course, my 11Lord, your Lordship is aware wish to deal with the 12Hizbollah allegations and the Farrakhan allegations, but 13this can done at any time 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think even that is best done from the 15witness box because this is a libel trial, it is a rather 16unusual one, but you will want to give what one might call 17some of the standard defamation evidence 18MR DAVID IRVING, sworn19 Examined by the Court20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think the best thing is if 21I give you a little bit if a steer, if I can put it that 22way. Would you rather sit down 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not sure that I need scaring 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, the word I used was "steer" not "scare", simply so 25that your evidence has a shape that might make it more 26comprehensible. Shall we start by your full name address

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
My full name is David John Cawdell -- I will spell that, 2C-A-W-D-E-L-L Irving, I-R-V-I-N-G 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And address 4A.
[Mr Irving]
My address is No. 81 Duke Street, London W1 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. You have made a witness statement for the purposes 6of this action and it is dated 22nd January last year. 7Would you formally confirm that that is so 8A.
[Mr Irving]
That is so. I have made a witness statement and the 9statements in it are true 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, thank you. Now, you can take it that I have read it, 11but, as you pointed out a little while ago, the Press is 12reporting this case and I think it would be right to give 13you the opportunity to restate in summary form anything 14that you wish to from that statement 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not have a copy of the statement with me 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think you probably should. Do you have anyone to help 17you fetch and carry documents 18A.
[Mr Irving]
My entire staff was called to the Bar just before 19Christmas, unfortunately 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Perhaps if you can provide? Thank you 21A.
[Mr Irving]
The statement is 18 pages, my Lord. If I were to read the 22statement out, it would take us until lunch time or would 23that be too long 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I am very much against you doing that because the main 25object of the exercise is, perhaps, to get your evidence 26across to me. I have read it, but I am giving you the

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1opportunity to be selective and make in a summary way any 2of the points that you want to make again in your oral 3evidence 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I think I have made the principal statements from this. 5I repeated them in my opening statement yesterday. My 6books have received high praise from established academic, 7official and government historians in every country where 8they have been published. I just mention the names of 9Professor Hugh Trevor-Roper, AJP Taylor, Professor MRD 10Foot, Captan Stephen Roskill, Professor Norman Stone, 11Professor Donald Cameron Watt. The reason I 12have mentioned those names, as your Lordship will see in 13your files copies of the reviews and praise that these 14people have given to my works. 15 I have not only written about World War II, of 16course; I have also written about other matters like the 17Hungarian Uprising and the German Uranian Research 18Programme during World War II. 19 John Keegan, the Defence Correspondent for The 20Daily Telegraph (and your Lordship will be aware why I 21have stated this) has written: "Two books in English 22stand out from the vast literature of the Second World 23War: Chester Wilmott's 'The Struggle for Europe' 24published in 1952 and David Irving 'Hitler's War'" which 25appeared three years ago. That kind of quotation rather 26gives the lie to the statement by the Second Defendant

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1which we saw on video that nobody takes me seriously. 2 It says here in about 1975 Adolf Hitler's 3Private Secretary, the late Christa Schroeder, gave me a 4small pencil sketch, a self-portrait of Adolf Hitler, 5which he had retrieved from his desk in the last days of 6the war. She gave it to me as a gift and I keep it. I do 7not, of course, have any kind of portrait of Adolf Hitler 8on my office hanging on the wall in the way that has been 9described. 10 Am I proceeding in the correct manner 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I think this is exactly what I think is the right way 12of proceeding 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I consider myself to be an expert on the careers of the 14principal Nazi leaders, including specifically Adolf 15Hitler, Goring and Dr Josef Goebbels. I am an expert on 16the archives about these people. I am expert on the 17current state of research into German and other wartime 18persecution and liquidation of the European Jewish 19communities 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You said yesterday -- I am sorry to interrupt you-- that 21you did not regard yourself as being an historian of the 22Holocaust, can you just in your evidence ---- 23A.
[Mr Irving]
This is true 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- explain what you mean 25A.
[Mr Irving]
There is a subtle difference. I am an expert in the state 26of research but not on their findings, so to speak. I am

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1an expert on the way they go about their research, but not 2so much on the actual details of the Holocaust, and so on 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
When you say "they", who do you mean by "they", the 4Defendants 5A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord. I am sorry, I should have made myself 6clear. I mean the Holocaust historians, the historians 7who specialize in that topic 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Over the years I have collected a very large archive of 10original documents and copies of original documents, like 11private diaries and papers like that, from the top Nazi 12leaders using various techniques and methods, all entirely 13legal and, as part of my technique, I would then donate 14these papers immediately to the suitable archives so they 15are immediately available to other historians. 16 My views upon politics are on page 1047 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 18A.
[Mr Irving]
The Defendants have chosen to refer to my politics and 19they wrongly categorise them. They say that I am extreme 20right-wing or something like that. I have never belonged 21to a political party, left or right, except I think 22I joined the Young Conservatives at University. 23 My father stood as a Labour candidate in the 241945 General Election. I voted for Sir James Goldsmith, 25my Lord, if I can make that point in the last election, in 26other words, neither one nor the other. I regard myself

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1as a laissez faire Liberal. In other words, I do not 2really care much about politics so long as they spend the 3money on hospitals rather than Millennium Domes. I have a 4family reason for saying that. 5 I do not look down on any section of humanity, 6either coloured immigrants, I have regularly employed 7them, or females. Your Lordship will appreciate the 8reasons why I make these points. I have five daughters, 9in fact -- I am sorry, I had five daughters. 10 I do not look down on the mentally or physically 11disabled. I admit to having little patience with smokers 12and none at all with drug abusers. This is not to say 13that I have applauded -- I have to state this because 14I will probably be asked about it -- I cannot say that I 15have applauded the uncontrolled tide of commonwealth 16immigration into this country. 17 Like most fellow countrymen of my background and 18vintage, I regret the passing of the Old England. 19I sometimes think, my Lord, that if the soldiers and 20sailors who stormed the beaches of Normandy in 1944 could 21see what England would be like at the end of this century, 22they would not have got 50 yards up the beach. I think 23they would have given up in disgust 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You said you are getting towards paragraph 23 of your 25witness statement, 1048 26A.
[Mr Irving]
My reputation as an historian

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1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You said you wanted to develop that and I think now is 2probably the appropriate time to do that, if you want to 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I have, of course, a very large collection of ring binders 4of Press clippings which have been made available to the 5Defendants and in which they have not shown the slightest 6interest. Reviews in all the leading newspapers of the 7world of the books that I have written. I believe I have 8written about 30. I could have produced all those reviews 9to the court, but if I just summarize and say that they 10are largely very favourable reviews, the kinds of reviews 11that made publishers line up to publish my books until the 12turning of tide. 13 Obviously, there were some reviews that you 14could describe as the curate's egg, but, by and large, the 15reviews were exceptionally favourable. It may be said 16that the reviewers were not as clever, perhaps, as the 17expert witnesses whom the Defendants have summoned for 18this case. That may be one argument; maybe they had not 19seen though me, perhaps. Arguments like that will be 20advanced, but I submit this is not the case. These were 21book reviews written by experts in their own field, like 22Captain Steven Roskill who was an eminent naval historian, 23Professor MRD Foot, who is another official historian, 24Professor Sir Frank Hinsley. If I just summarize it as 25briefly as that, my Lord 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I think that is sufficient

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
If you wish to question that, of course, I will be quite 2happy to put in all the evidence to support the 3contention, but Defendants have not shown any interest in 4these statements 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can you help me because I have not alighted on them. Are 6they in one of the files 7A.
[Mr Irving]
They were within my discovery. They were disclosed to the 8Defendants in proper form. Admittedly, I did not do an 9index of the entire set, but they were shown 16 ring 10binders full of chronologically organized, properly pasted 11up reviews and Press clippings in which, who knows, they 12might have found some goodies they could have used against 13me, I do not know, but they did not bother with them 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Take your own course, Mr Irving, but do you now want to 15deal with the publication of "Denying the Holocaust" 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The publication of the book. I paid no attention to that 17book, my Lord, until 1996. It did not come into my ken 18until 1996. I believe it was published in 1994, but in 19April 1996 we published in this country my book the 20Goebbels' biography, "Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third 21Reich". Your Lordship will be aware this is the only book 22that I requested that your Lordship study in some detail 23because it is a book that I am particularly proud of. 24 When we began marketing that book in the United 25Kingdom, which meant literally that I and my publisher 26imprint rented a van and visited approximately 980

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1bookstores up and down the length and breadth of the 2country, which is a very enjoyable exercise. I do not do 3it out of tedium; it is very interesting to visit the 4bookstores and their managers. We marketed the book 5directly to them and we sold many thousands of copies in 6this manner, but we came across the phenomenon that in a 7number of bookstores, particularly in the Waterstones 8chain, the head of the history department took an aversion 9to me. 10 After visiting a number of the bookstores, it 11became quite plain that the reason for the aversion to me 12was the fact that they were selling the book "Denying the 13Holocaust", published by the first Defendant and written 14by the Second Defendant. This book was being believed by 15Waterstones or by their employes and by, no doubt, other 16bookstores too. It was causing me considerable concern 17because these bookstores were thereupon refusing to stock 18my books. 19 So I thereupon during that tour began to 20purchase copies of "Denying the Holocaust" as evidence 21that the book was on sale within the jurisdiction. I put 22the publishers on notice. I put the author on notice. 23I put certain of the book sellers themselves on notice 24because under the Defamation Act anybody in the 25distribution chain can be held liable for the peddling of 26libels. I subsequently, of course, separated those --

. P-136

1I discontinued the action against the book sellers for 2reasons that need not occupy the court. 3 At the beginning of September 1996, which is 4that same year, which had been a very harrowing year for 5me, as I had seen my American publishers, St Martin's 6Press, in conjunction with my big American publisher, 7Doubledays, simultaneously deciding, we now learn, upon 8representations made by the Second Defendant not to go 9ahead with publication of my Goebbels' biography, 10I decided that I had no recourse but to take libel action 11against this book which was, obviously, part of the cause 12of my problem. 13 So I issued the writ, after taking usual 14procedural steps, the letter before action and so on, 15I think it was dated September 6th 1996 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. Now, you have selected for complaint a number of 17particular passages from the book and I think it would be 18appropriate if you were to deal with them, and where you 19best find them, I do not know, but certainly they are to 20be found in your Statement of Claim, but it may be you 21would rather deal with it in some other way 22A.
[Mr Irving]
May I return my papers and collect the Statement of 23Claim 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, of if you point out where they are, perhaps somebody 25can do it for you rather than having you go backwards and 26forwards

. P-137

1A.
[Mr Irving]
They are in the ring binder 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Thank you very much 3A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I was defamed and libelled on a number of pages 4in the book. I do not propose to read out, unless your 5Lordship wishes otherwise, the specific passages 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No. You are entitled to take your own course about that 7but I think what you ought to do is just give an 8indication of ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I will read out ---- 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- why you object to the passages that you have selected 11for complaint 12A.
[Mr Irving]
If I go to paragraph 9 of the Statement of Claim which is 13 "The natural or ordinary meaning of the words complained 14of" 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I contend that the passages meant, and were intended to 17mean and understood to mean, firstly, "that the 18Plaintiff", meaning myself, "is a dangerous spokesperson 19for Holocaust denial ... for denial forces who 20deliberately and knowingly consorts and consorted with 21anti-Israel, anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial forces and 22who contracted to attend a world anti-Zionist conference 23in Sweden in November 1992, thereby agreeing to appear in 24public in support of and alongside violent and extremist 25speakers, including representatives of the violent and 26extremist anti-Semitic Russian group, Pamyat, and of the

. P-138

1Iranian-backed Hezbollah and of the fundamentalist Islamic 2organization Hamas and including the black Muslim leader 3Louis Farrakhan, born Louis Eugene Walcott, who is known 4as a Jew-baiting black agitator, as a leader of the US 5Nation of Islam, as an admirer of Hitler and who is in the 6pay of Colonel Gaddafi". 7 My Lord, the wording that I use in this is, of 8course, very closely related to the wording used in the 9work complained of. I have not chosen those words 10myself. I have merely distilled them out of the 11Defendant's text and adhered as closely as possible to the 12original wording 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. You are just paraphrasing really 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not even paraphrasing, my Lord. I am gluing the 15words together into a complaint form using the words 16actually used by the Defendants in the work complained of 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That is what I meant by "paraphrase" 18A.
[Mr Irving]
So I have added no colour, I have turned up no volume. 19These are the extraordinary words used to describe me by 20the Defendants. They say, "that the Plaintiff", myself, 21 "is an historian who has inexplicably misled", in other 22words, the word "inexplicably" is in the original book, 23 "misled academic historians like Ernst Nolte into quoting 24historically invalid points contained in his writings", my 25writings, "and who applauds the internment of Jews in Nazi 26concentration camps". I am accused of having applauded

. P-139

1the internment of Jews in Nazi concentration camps which 2is a particularly perverse allegation in my view. 3 No. (iii) "that the Plaintiff", David Irving, 4 "routinely perversely and by way of his profession, but 5essentially in order to serve his own reprehensible 6purposes ideological leanings and/or political agenda", 7and here are the allegations, "distort accurate historical 8evidence and information; misstate; misconstrue; misquote; 9falsify statistics; falsely attribute conclusions to 10reliable sources; manipulate documents; wrongfully quote 11from books that directly contradict my arguments in such a 12manner as completely to distort their author's objectives 13and while counting on the ignorance or indolence of the 14majority of readers not to realize this" 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
May I interrupt and ask you this? Am I right in thinking 16(and I may be quite wrong) that really that is the 17imputation against you which causes you the most concern 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Professionally, clearly so, my Lord 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I mean, the name calling is neither here nor there and 21your Lordship may make of it what your Lordship wants, 22I submit. Clearly, some of the name calling will stick, 23but it would be a real waste of this court's time if 24I take each of the names I have been called in turn and 25try to prove that is not so. This is what has cost me my 26career, unless the court disposes otherwise at the end of

. P-140

1this trial, my Lord. 2 I complained that the work complained of 3describes me as an Adolf Hitler partisan who wears 4blinkers and skews documents and misrepresents data in 5order to reach historically untenable conclusions 6specifically those that exonerate Hitler. 7 I am accused of being an ardent admirer of the 8Nazi leader, Adolf Hitler, an ardent admirer of the Nazi 9leader, Adolf Hitler; that I conceive myself as carrying 10on Hitler's criminal legacy and that I placed a 11self-portrait of Hitler over my desk; that I 12have described a visit to Hitler's mountain top retreat as 13a spirit experience; that I have described myself as a 14moderate fascist. These are the allegations contained in 15the book. 16 Further, that before the Zundel trial began in 171988 in Toronto, I, the Plaintiff, compromising my 18integrity as an historian, and in an attempt to pervert 19the course of justice and one Faurisson, Robert Faurisson 20whom we saw in the video, that I wrongfully and/or 21fraudulently conspired together to invite an American 22prison warden and thereafter one Fred Leuchter, an 23engineer who is depicted by the Defendants as a charlatan, 24to testify as a tactic for proving that the gas chambers 25were a myth". 26 The loaded words in that sentence, my Lord, are

. P-141

1words that are actually contained in the book. 2 "That the Plaintiff after attending Mr Zundel's 3trial in 1988 in Toronto, having previously hovered on the 4brink now denies the murder by the Nazis of the Jews". So 5I deny the murder by the Nazis of the Jews, this is one of 6the allegations. That I described the memorial to the 7dead at Auschwitz as a tourist attraction; that I was 8branded by the British House of Commons as "Hitler's 9Heir", and that I was denounced by the same British House 10of Commons as a Nazi propagandist and long-time Hitler 11apologist and accused by them of publishing a fascist 12publication, and that this marked the end of my reputation 13in England. 14 My Lord, it may possibly not be familiar to the 15Defendants that there is a distinction between an early 16day motion being put in the House of Commons by a group of 17disgruntled members of Parliament and the House of Commons 18actually voting and reaching a decision. It is nothing 19more than a propaganda move by people who wish to draw 20attention to something within the privileged atmosphere. 21It is rather like the privileged atmosphere that exists in 22this court, my Lord; people can say what they want about 23me and the newspapers are free to print it 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, well, I certainly do know about early day motions, 25so... 26A.
[Mr Irving]
That some other person had discovered in a Russian archive

. P-142

1 -- this is the allegation in the book -- that some other 2person had discovered in the Russian archive in 1992 the 3Goebbels' diaries, that it was assumed that these would 4shed light on the conduct of the Final Solution, but that 5I was hired and paid a significant sum by the London 6Sunday Times to transcribe and translate, although I was a 7discredited and ignominious figure and, although by hiring 8the Plaintiff, the newspaper threw its task as a 9gatekeeper of the truth and of journalistic ethics to the 10winds and, although there was thereby increased the danger 11that the Plaintiff would in order to serve his own 12reprehensible purposes misstate, misconstrue, misquote, 13falsify, distort and/or manipulate these sets of documents 14which others had not seen, namely, the Goebbels' diaries; 15I would do all that in order to propagate my reprehensible 16views and that I, the Plaintiff, was unfit to perform such 17a function for this newspaper. 18 Finally, the book contained the allegation that 19I violated an agreement with the Russian archives, and 20that I took and copied many plates without permission 21causing significant damage to them and rendering them of 22limited use to subsequent researchers 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Mr Irving, the first of those imputations that you say 24that Professor Lipstadt makes against you in her book is 25one that links you with Hamas and Hezbollah, and again 26I think you indicated earlier on that you wanted to say

. P-143

1something about those organizations 2A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I put to your Lordship a small bundle of 3documents ---- 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 5A.
[Mr Irving]
--- on those organisations 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I have read it. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
It is probably not necessary for me to go in detail 8through them. I will indicate to your Lordship that 9reliable sources, like the BBC or other news media 10organizations, have consistently described the Hezbollah 11and Hamas, which are two Muslim fundamentalist terrorist 12organizations, as being criminal organizations whose 13members are not allowed into other countries and are 14actively pursued by the forces of law and order and, 15indeed, actively pursued with less law and order by the 16forces of the Mossad, who sometimes dispose of them by 17jabbing the aforementioned hypodermic needle laden with 18nerve gas into their neck which is one of the documents 19which I put before your Lordship 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I have read them 21A.
[Mr Irving]
So anybody who is described in this reckless way as being 22a member of the Hamas or the Hezbollah or some other 23similar terrorist organization is at risk of being 24declared fair game with the forces of law and order or, at 25the very least, for the immigration authorities and 26countries who already look askance upon people for various

. P-144

1reasons and, at worst, they are having their life put at 2risk or they are going to be ruffed up in the street by 3people who disagree with the Hezbollah or the Hamas. 4 I do not share your Lordship's earlier opinion 5at the pretrial review that is a matter which falls under 6section 5 of the Act, my Lord 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I did not express any concluded view, obviously 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, my Lord. This was totally misquoted 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can you help me on something else? You will have the 10opportunity to make submissions about that later on. You 11supplied documents relating to the bombing in Oklahoma 12City. Does that feature in Professor Lipstadt's book 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It does not feature in the book, my Lord, but I thought 14this was the appropriate bundle to put them, in February 151996 the media in the United States, where such 16allegations can be made with impunity, raised the 17allegation that I had supplied the trigger mechanism for 18the Oklahoma City bomb. 19 Now, the Oklahoma City bombing features in some 20of the documents quoted, I believe, by Professor Evans or 21by Professor Brian Levin, because they quote from my diary 22on that particular day; and to be accused of having 23anything to do with that crime was something I found 24particularly repugnant and I regard it as being part of 25the general campaign to vilify me and blacken my name 26which originated from the same sources which have funded

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1the Defendants with the material they have used to smear 2me. It is no more directly associated with them than 3that 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Thank you very much 5A.
[Mr Irving]
But it is like trying to put a hook into a custard pie. 6You cannot really pin anything down until you stand back 7and you see the whole continuum of the onslaught to which 8I have been subjected 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The next thing you might want to deal with, Mr Irving, is 10the effect that that the publication of the book of which 11you complain has had on you. I have seen what you say in 12your witness statement about that, but if you want to 13expatiate on that, then please do 14A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, people have said to me, "Why have you picked on 15that book and those particular Defendants?" and the simple 16answer is because it is an open and shut case. I have 17been accused of doing things which they cannot justify. 18If we admittedly find it more difficult to disprove the 19subjective claims, ad hominem statements that are made, 20there are certain specific claims that are made, like the 21Adolf Hitler portrait or like the misquoting of documents 22or deliberate and reprehensible mistranslation or 23distortion, which are easy to disprove and they are the 24ones which reflect on my professional integrity and on my 25career and on my livelihood, which is precisely what the 26Defamation act, as I understand it, is about

. P-146

1 This is one reason why I decided that the time 2had come after 30 years to take some kind of action which 3I did with the utmost reluctance because Penguin Books, 4the First Defendants, have published books of my own in 5the past and you are not eager to go and sue people who 6have published your own books. 7 The book, undoubtedly, had caused me serious 8damage. When I consider, admittedly, this was not damage 9within the jurisdiction, and it is possible the Defence 10counsel objected and it is, therefore, relevant, but in 11view of the fact that the publication of this book and the 12author of the book were widely quoted in justification by 13the American publishers for cancelling my Dr Goebbels' 14biography, which was for me a particularly wounding and 15injurious event, when I wrote the biography of 16Dr Goebbels, it was a task of nine years, my Lord. 17 We have just spent three years preparing this 18case, writing that one book which your Lordship has seen 19took me nine years. It went through, I think, six 20different drafts; the first draft entirely in handwriting, 21the drafts of the manuscript which the Defendants have 22seen fills some ten cubic feet of boxes, as it was refined 23and refined and then finally totally rewritten when I came 24into possession of the diaries. The book was set to 25restore my reputation completely until the United States, 26because your Lordship may well agree that the book cannot

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1be described as "anti-Semitic", the book, in my 2submission, cannot be described as justifying the 3Holocaust or admiring Hitler or exonerating Hitler in any 4kind of way, the book was, I consider, one of the most 5well-founded and well-researched and watertight accounts 6of the higher leadership of the Third Reich that I have 7ever written. It was the crowning point of my career. We 8waited with the utmost eagerness for publication day in 9the United States, shortly before which the publishers 10contacted me and said, Mr Irving, we are beginning to come 11under attack from all quarters. One of the quarters was 12from the second Defendant 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Your evidence is, is it, that the -- I think you said "the 14author" did you mean.. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
The Second Defendant 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The American publishers of the Goebbels book told you that 17Professor Lipstadt and -- 18A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord, media accounts have linked Professor Lipstadt 19with this particular event 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- media accounts, rather than the American publishers 21A.
[Mr Irving]
This is true, my Lord, and it is very unsatisfactory that 22we are not going to be able, as I understand it, to 23question Professor Lipstadt about what contact she may 24have had 25 If I may state at this point also, one would 26have liked to have seen in her discovery, had her

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1discovery been complete, and I am going to submit her 2discovery was incomplete, any correspondence that she 3might have had or any communications she might or might 4not have had with the publishers' concerns, St Martins 5Press, or with the people who were putting pressure on the 6publishers, because the Second Defendant was certainly 7instantly quoted as an authority on the reasons why the 8book should be suppressed 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, but you are entitled to make applications for 10discovery, but let us focus on your evidence. If you want 11to make that application we can deal with that at the 12beginning or the end of the day 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not an application, my Lord, it is an allegation. 14I was informed by the second Defendants' lawyers when your 15Lordship will have seen that I succeeded in obtaining an 16order that the Second Defendant should be required to 17swear a list on affidavit. When that occurs, as your 18Lordship is aware, I am not allowed to go behind the 19affidavit until the trial of the action. I was repeatedly 20reminded of this by the defendants' solicitors, who said 21you will be able to cross-examine Professor Lipstadt when 22the time comes, on her affidavit, and, of course, now we 23will not 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 25A.
[Mr Irving]
That is not the last time I shall refer to that, my Lord. 26I find it an unfortunate state of affairs

. P-149

1 So the book anyway in the United States did not 2appear. The just proceeds of that book not appearing were 3denied to me. But not only the just proceeds of that book 4but as it seems now all future books, because all the 5publishers with whom I previously dealt in the United 6States have pointed to that episode in grief and terror 7and said we cannot afford that to happen to us. The 8chairman of the St Martin's Press was obliged to resign 9six weeks later over the scandal and nobody wanted to go 10through that again 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. So that is your evidence about the effect of what 12has been published by these Defendants. Now -- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Specific details, yes, my Lord, of course, there is a 14long-term effect in this country as well 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- describe that 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The book, which has been published by the First and Second 17Defendants has been not just sold through the normal 18outlets, it has been placed on the Internet on two 19different website locations. I have no way of knowing 20whether they are active participants in that or not 21because we cannot cross-examine them on that. I, the 22Defendant, but the book has been made available in other 23words to 200 million Internet users. They can download it 24free, the entire book, and review probably regardless of 25whatever injunction your Lordship sees fit to make at the 26end of this trial that book will continue in perpetuity in

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1cyber space. The book has been donated to very large 2numbers of university libraries around the world. One of 3my correspondents at the University of Durham has found no 4fewer than three copies in Durham University library with 5library plate gummed into the front saying "donated by 6Friends of Durham University History Society". There is 7no such Society. So it has been actively propagated by 8who knows whom. The book is relied on as a source. It is 9an authoritative source by people who wish to attack me 10further. So it has an ongoing rolling effect far beyond 11the effect it has just on the one customer who picks it up 12at his local Barns & Noble or Waterstones bookshop, my 13Lord. 14 Of course, the book is a very much more serious 15libel -- vehicle for a libel then a newspaper. When 16newspapers have libeled me or defamed me in the past and 17people have come to me wringing their hands in grief as 18you will see from one of the speeches I made. I said, fear 19not because today is already Monday and what appeared 20yesterday is already wrapping fish and chips or being 21flushed down the drains in some paper processing plant. 22Whereas books go into libraries. 23 But simultaneously, as your Lordship will have 24seen from the witness statement of Professor Evans, when 25he went to the British Library and asked to obtain a copy 26of my book he was told that it had mysteriously been put

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1in the pornographic book section and was not freely 2available. The book which I have on the desk in front, my 3book "Hitler's War". 4 It is quite ingenious campaign, my Lord, I would 5aver that on the one side my book is being suppressed and 6squirreled away, hidden out of sight so people cannot see 7what I actually wrote. Pressure is put on publishers so 8they do not publish my books and simultaneously a campaign 9is launched by very well qualified writers and very gifted 10writers, armed with ammunition from all around the world 11in an attempt to defame me which I then cannot answer. 12 Has your Lordship further questions on ---- 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Not on that aspect, and I do not want to impose any kind 14of rigid pattern to your evidence if you do not want it to 15emerge in that way 16A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I find it is very useful that you ask me these 17questions because it is like an examination in chief 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I hoped you might. Yes, that is what it is really intended 19to be. What I was going to suggest you deal with now, is 20the plea of justification because that is obviously the 21main issue. If it is not inconvenient to you it would be 22most helpful to me if you were to deal perhaps quite 23briefly with the various allegations that are put against 24you in the Defendant's summary of case, because I think 25everybody agrees that superseded the original defence, we 26discussed that at pretrial review

. P-152

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think it is a convenient summary of the allegations that 3are made against you and can you deal with it briefly or 4at greater length. It is a matter for you. I have no 5doubt you will be cross-examined about it anyway, but 6would it be appropriate to go through -- 7A.
[Mr Irving]
If I can find it in this bundle 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- the topics. I have it in a separate file. I do not 9know whether if you have it in the same form I have, the 10Defendant's summary of case 11MR RAMPTON: We have it. Does your Lordship have it in a 12separate file 13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That may be something I did and have 14forgotten about. 15MR RAMPTON: It is in the pale green thing 16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got it 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I have the summary of the Defendants case, yes 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, as you recall it is divided into sections, and the 19first section, which is quite a short one, is the 20allegation that is made against you by the Defendants that 21you are what is called a "Holocaust denier" 22A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I think I led, or at any rate I gave my reply to 23that allegation in my opening statement yesterday at some 24length, and I am not sure there is very much more I can 25add to that in chief, so to speak. Perhaps the ---- 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can I just put a little bit of flesh on the bones of that

. P-153

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The way the Defendants put their case is to quote quite a 3large number of, mostly speeches, that you have made 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Usually in North America, and to say that you have denied 6that there were any Jews killed in gas chambers at 7Auschwitz and so on, and refer to Auschwitz in dismissive 8terms. The first question, I suppose, is to what extent 9you accept that you are accurately quoted. I am not 10asking you to go into the detail of it, but do you accept 11that you have said that sort of thing, in general, whether 12the quotation is accurate 13A.
[Mr Irving]
In general, those quotations are accurate, my Lord. Of 14course, I am quite unhappy about the use of word 15"holocaust" without having had it very closely defined. 16It is a very elastic expression 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You state what you understand it to mean 18A.
[Mr Irving]
The Holocaust was the tragedy that befell the Jewish 19people during World War II. I would set it as broadly as 20that. One could even set if more broadly and say the 21Holocaust was whole of World War II and that the people 22who died and suffered in that Holocaust were not 23necessarily confined to the Jewish religion, but any 24number of innocents, whether gypsies, homosexuals, the 25people in Coventry, the people in Hiroshima. I think it 26is otiose to try and define the Holocaust just the way you

. P-154

1wish to define it in order to snare somebody, which 2appears to be what happens in a case like this. They set 3it as wide as they want when it is a concern, for example, 4of taking money from the Swiss banks. I will justify that 5statement in a moment, and they set it very narrowly when 6they then try to snare a writer who is dangerous to them, 7as they put it. 8 The reference to the Swiss Bank is justified as 9follows. I have in my files and I can produce it to your 10Lordship if you wish probably five or ten whole page 11advertisements inserted in the newspapers around the 12world, and your Lordship may well have seen them, inviting 13people in entitled to compensation for their suffering in 14the Holocaust to come forward, and for the purposes of 15that advertisement those people are defined as any person 16who was persecuted in Germany during the periods of the 17Third Reich, or in Nazi occupied territories, by virtue of 18his religion or by virtue of being a minority. He did not 19have to be in a concentration camp. He did not have do 20work in a slave labour factory. The mere fact of being 21within the frontiers of those countries justified that man 22to Holocaust compensation. That, of course, is, in my 23submission, an offensively wide description of the word 24and I think that the two line description I gave, the 25Holocaust is -- I would prefer to see it defined for the 26purposes of this court, this trial, the Holocaust is the

. P-155

1tragedy that befell -- that undoubtedly befell the Jewish 2people during the Third Reich, not even just during World 3War II 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, do not let us be too bothered about labels, but can 5I just ask you this; I understand what are you saying 6about the Holocaust being a term you could apply to the 7World War II generally, but if you take it as meaning, for 8the purposes of this question anyway, a systematic 9programme of exterminating Jews, conducted by the Nazi 10regime -- 11A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I think the difference -- 12Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- can I just ask you this, do you accept that there was 13any such programme first; leave aside the issue of gas 14chambers 15A.
[Mr Irving]
-- no, I do not. I think this is the defect, with 16respect, in your Lordship's definition. The systematic 17programme to exterminate the Jews is the cause, whereas 18the Holocaust, the word "Holocaust" as I would see it is 19the effect, the result, the tragedy that results. When we 20are looking at the Holocaust we are looking at the 21victims. We are looking at the mass graves. We are 22looking at the people being machine gunned into pits. The 23Holocaust in my submission is not the machinery which 24produced the result, it is the suffering and not the 25murderer, shall we say 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So I want to be clear on this, because it is obviously

. P-156

1important 2A.
[Mr Irving]
It is very important indeed, my Lord 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You are saying that, yes, there were multiple shootings by 4Einsatzgruppen and so on during the invasion of Soviet 5Russia -- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
There was mass murders of Jews committed by Nazis in their 7satraps -- 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- but it was not pursuant to any systematic programme, is 9that your case 10A.
[Mr Irving]
-- again, I would have to -- I am not caviling, but these 11are important definitions, my Lord. If the 12definition -- if by using the word "systematic" you are 13implying that the system, the Third Reich as such 14originated these massacres, then I would have to quibble 15with that. I would say that certainly at a lower level a 16system emerged and that it was systemized somewhere in the 17hierarchy; does your Lordship appreciate -- 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I follow what you are saying 19A.
[Mr Irving]
-- yes. I submit that the Defendants will find it very 20difficult to suggest that it was a Third Reich decision. 21In other words an Adolf Hitler decision, which is of 22course the open water between us at present. 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can I ask a similar question; do you accept or deny 24totally that there was any systematic gassing of Jews in 25gas chambers, whether at Auschwitz or at elsewhere? 26I know we are not dealing with Auschwitz but I think that

. P-157

1that ought to be part of -- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I think if we can leave out the word "systematic" 3which is contentious, I do not deny that there was some 4kind of gassing at gas chambers in Birkenhau, it is highly 5likely that there was 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- on a solely experimental basis or -- 7A.
[Mr Irving]
That is the word I have used to give an indication of 8scale and to give an indication of the authority on which 9it was conducted, and, well, I leave it at that. But now 10you appreciate the reason why I am reluctant to insert the 11word systematized into that, because that implies that it 12was conducted on authority from above and that there were 13guidelines, and in some of the killings they were very 14definitely guidelines, my Lord, and I will lead some 15evidence on that later. Because Heinrich Himmler in fact 16refers to guidelines in a message he send to one of the 17commanders which has not been revealed previously 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- do you want to add anything more in advance of 19cross-examination about the allegation that you are a 20Holocaust denier using the term "Holocaust" in the narrow 21definition 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I do, my Lord, I wish to say that if you are not allowed 23to examine components of the Holocaust as I described it, 24the tragedy that was inflicted on the Jewish people in the 25Third Reich, if you are not allowed to examine individual 26components of that and say, yes, this definitely

. P-158

1happened. This is slightly exaggerated, that bit I find 2little evidence for. In other words not to carry out 3normal kind of analysis that you would do as a writer or 4as an historian without being accused and defamed as being 5a Holocaust denier instantly by the assembled mass media, 6then I would think would be a very sorry state of affairs. 7To that extent I find it offensive to be called a 8Holocaust denier because there are aspects of the 9Holocaust as currently portrayed that I find questionable, 10debateable and they need to be debated. But that is not 11Holocaust denial in my view, my Lord. 12 The defence contention that somebody who 13challenges the figure is a Holocaust denier ipso facto, I 14have read Professor Evans' report in great deal here where 15I think he gives four criteria of what a Holocaust denier 16is. Somebody who says that Adolf Hitler did not give the 17order, somebody who challenges a figure. Somebody who 18says there were no gas chambers. I forget the fourth 19one. It is almost as though those four criteria have been 20tailor made in the way that you would have a suit tailor 21made for this very action, my Lord. I do not think that 22your Lordship will set much store by those four criteria. 23I hope you will not. Because if it is not possible to 24question the 6 million figure, for example, that I have 25been I accused of being a Holocaust denier, you run into 26immediate difficulties, because the Auschwitz authorities

. P-159

1themselves removed the memorial stone for 4 million dead 2and replaced it with a memorial stone for one million 3dead; are they Holocaust deniers under Professor Evans' 4definition? It is an absurdity 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Again, take your own course, but I was being to move on 6and I was going to skip for the purposes of my so-called 7examination-in-chief of you, skip altogether the section 8dealing with Auschwitz and indeed the one.. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
If you had not, my Lord, I would have reminded you of what 10we agreed this morning 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, quite. I am also going to skip Treblinka, Sobibor 12and Belsic, because it seems to me they really belong in 13the same compartment of the case as Auschwitz. 14 There is a section though in a subsection in 15section 2, you may be able to find the page 28, which is 16headed: "Mass Murder of Jews by Shootings", I am not sure 17that really belongs in that particular section, but I can 18see why it has landed up there; do you want to say 19anything at this stage about that in fairly general 20terms? I think the criticism is made of you that whilst 21you recognize that many, to use a neutral word, many Jews 22were shot and killed in horrific circumstances, you have 23downplayed it, you have underestimated the number of 24deaths which occurred in this fashion 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not like playing numbers games, my Lord, and a lot of 26these numbers are very suspect. Your Lordship may not be

. P-160

1familiar with this, but there was the case against Field 2Marshall Manstein, conducted by British War Crimes Court 3in Germany, where Manstein was represented by very eminent 4and able QC, I think it was Paget, who subsequently wrote 5a book called "Manstein and His Trials" and he led very 6good evidence indeed on these figures, proving how totally 7impossible many of the figures were relating to the 8Einsatzgruppen, but I say this with the utmost diffidence 9as I am not a expert and I have no intention of becoming a 10expert on that. What I am an expert on is the role played 11by Adolf Hitler in these killings and if I can just spend 12two minutes of the court's time describing the sequel to 13what happened yesterday, the November 30th 1941 episode, 14documents we have here in the British archives. They are 15of the utmost importance because they go a long way to 16refuting what Mr Rampton said yesterday about my 17interpretation of that Himmler document. 18 If you remember, my Lord, on November 30th 1941, 19an event to which both the defence and I in our opening 20statements have referred occurred. A train load of 1,035 21Jews from Berlin arrived after a two or three day journey 22at Riga. They were unloaded from the train that morning 23in ice cold conditions and had the misfortune to arrive in 24the middle of a mass extermination, a mass shooting of 25Jews being conducted by the local SS commander. They were 26shot immediately in the pits, and, my Lord, I am sure you

. P-161

1will vividly remember the description of that very 2shooting that was given to us by General Bruns in the 3Bruns Report, to which I have repeatedly referred 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 5A.
[Mr Irving]
So that one episode, when great good fortune, having a lot 6of documentation, the defence as I understand it are going 7to seize on the fact that in the Bruns Report the local SS 8junior says it is the Fuhrer's orders. I think there are 9very grave reasons for doubting that because Heinrich 10Himmler, as we heard yesterday, at 1.30 p.m. on that same 11Sunday, November 30th 1941, was called into Hitler's 12bunker and at or about that time, and I am going to be 13quite careful how I say this, he had reason to make a 14telephone call to SS Obergruppen Fuhrer Reinhardt 15Heinrich, who was his henchman, his closest lieutenant. 16He was the head of the killers, shall we say, he was above 17the Gestapo, Reinhardt Heinreich, and in that telephone 18conversation he said certain things as a result of which 19he jotted down two lines in his note pad. I have the 20actual handwritten notes on the table next to my stand 21there. The first line says: ( German spoken) Jew 22transport from Berlin. I appreciate quite readily that in 23the first chapter of my "Hitler's War" book I wrongly put 24that in the plural. The second line continued with the 25words ( German spoken) "no liquidation". 26 Now, many things can be said about that

. P-162

1document, my Lord, the first is, how is it that it was not 2until 1974 when David Irving took the trouble to 3transcribe Heinrich Himmler's note, 30 years after the war 4was over that this extraordinary note came to the 5attention of the historical community. Well, I do not 6know why they do not want to read Heinreich Himmler's 7handwriting. It is a very difficult handwriting and 8I have to plead that as being my partial excuse for having 9misread ( German spoken) and also on the following day for 10having misread word "juden" as "haben" (?) or vice versa 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think the point they make is not so much about 12legibility, but that this on its face looks as if it is 13talking about a single train transportation to -- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, this true, my Lord 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- to Riga from Berlin 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I should have put in the word "the". I left out the word 17"the" in my text based on it. I should not have said 18"transportation of Jews" I should have said "the 19transport of Jews". But I corrected this as soon as this 20was pointed out to me, my Lord. 21 But I can continue because the inference that 22I drew from this, if this telephone call is made ( German 23spoken), from the bunker, from Hitler's bunker at the 24Wolf's lair in Rustenberg, East Prussia, Himmler has been 25required to telephone Reinhardt Heydrich and tell somebody 26these Jews from Berlin were not to be liquidated, you have

. P-163

1to very interesting conclusion, namely the liquidation was 2in the air and people have pointed this out to me and I do 3not dispute that for one moment. But what interested me 4is Adolf Hitler's biographer is that here is a case of 5Hitler intervening in a negative way. But it gets more 6interesting, my Lord, because we now have 20 years further 7down the road at the end of the 1990s in the Public Record 8Office the intercepts of the radio messages sent by 9Himmler the very next day to the man who had carried out 10the killings, SS Obergruppenfuhrer Joachim. Now this may 11be new to your Lordship. It is certainly new to everybody 12in this court; December 1st 1941, the day after the 13killings, Joachim gets a message from Heinrich Himmler in 14top secret SS code which we broke reading, and I have this 15there memory, I have the actual document on my desk over 16there but the sense is, the words are: These shootings 17that have been carried out in Riga, concerning the 18shootings in Riga, any excess, any further excesses, 19arbitrary excesses and actions against instructions given 20to you -- no. You have been given clear guidelines 21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we ought to look at this document 22I am not familiar with it 23MR RAMPTON: Nor are we 24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think we should look at it 25A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, it has been supplied to the Defence several weeks 26ago

. P-164

1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not doubting that for a moment. Can you 2indicate where it is so we can get it for you 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It is large yellow sheets headed "Most Secret" in my case, 4at the bottom of the inside of my case. Then I do not 5have them with me, because I was intending to lead this 6material tomorrow 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So I understand what you are saying, you are saying there 8is a message from Himmler to Joachim 9A.
[Mr Irving]
From Himmler to the Chief of the SS saying: There were 10very clear guidelines for the outsettlement, the 11outplacing of the Jews from Berlin 12Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So it is about the Jews from Berlin 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It is talking about Jews from Berlin, clearly referring to 14this train load. He then continues: Any further arbitrary 15actions and actions against instructions will be severely 16punished, and he ordered Joachim to report immediately to 17Hitler's headquarters. On December 4th, my Lord, and this 18I do have there in the big blue volume -- can you give it 19to me, the Himmler Diary, have had that volume now for 20 20years -- on December 4th 1941 Joachim then turns up at 21Hitler's headquarters and he is raked over the coals, 22there is no question, because the killings of German Jews 23stopped for the next few months. On December 1st I would 24say ---- 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is there a copy of this document? If there is not there 26should be one

. P-165

1A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, there are copies made. I had all this bundle 2ready to be produced tomorrow 3MR RAMPTON: Can I help 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Because of the importance ---- 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think Mr Rampton knows where it is 6MR RAMPTON: I do not know if it is he same document. From its 7wording I very much suspect it is, but on page 353 of 8Professor Evans' report at paragraph 6 ---- 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor who 10MR RAMPTON: Professor Evans page 353, paragraph 6, he has a 11quotation from a document: "The Jews have been resettled 12out of the territory of the "Ouslander" (?) only to be 13dealt with in accordance with guidelines issued by me or 14the Reich Security Head Office on my authority. I will 15punish individual initiatives and contraventions. 16Signed H. Himmler", and it is annotated as being Himmler 17to Joachim, 1st December 1941 at 7.30 p.m. in the Public 18Record Office HW16/32 19A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct 20MR RAMPTON: It is the same document 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Does he also have the following message, let me ask 22Mr Rampton, where he instructs Joachim to report to 23headquarters immediately 24MR RAMPTON: I do not have that document 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Clearly the significance of that is even more important 26than this rap on the knuckles about the arbitrary

. P-166

1reactions and acting against authority and disobeying the 2guidelines. On December 1st, the day after the killings, 3the same day as these telegrams, here is in Himmler's own 4handwriting a telephone call at 1315 to SS General 5Heinrich about the executions in Riga which everybody 6agrees is referring to this appalling atrocity where the 7Jews had been shot into the pits. The significant feature 8is, as all the historians on both sides now agree, that 9from that time on the killing of German Jews stopped for 10many months. The fact that this instruction had come in 11the first instance from Hitler's bunker and on the 12following day from Heinrich Himmler who had been to see to 13Hitler who sends him a message that I would describe as 14"panic stricken" to General Joachim saying "any further 15actions of this nature, any arbitrary actions against the 16guidelines, will be severely punished and you are ordered 17to report to Hitler's headquarters", is a matter which 18I think is so serious that this is the reason why I was 19preparing a very detailed bundle on it, my Lord, with 20complete facsimiles and translations for your Lordship's 21attention, because it goes very closely to the central 22issues in this case: How far was Hitler personally 23involved and what were his intentions 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
In relation to the shooting 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Of European Jews as opposed to Russian Jews 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, but in relation to death by shooting

. P-167

1A.
[Mr Irving]
And also in relation to my contention, as your Lordship 2will be aware, that there is a chain of documents of 3varying magnitudes of integrity and weight which indicate 4that Hitler was a negative force in this matter, whereas 5there are no comparable documents indicating the 6opposite. I know it is barely credible, but if one comes 7to this with a open mind and then 20 years later one comes 8across yet another document like this extraordinary 9British intercept, this decode of the SS message from 10Himmler to the man on the spot who had done the killings, 11saying any further such actions will be subject to 12punishment and ordering him to report to Hitler's 13headquarters. It is an extraordinary episode and I find it 14also highly significant that the German historians have so 15far not been prepared to refer to this episode with a 16single line as far as its significance is concerned, 17because they are mortally terrified under the consequence 18of the new laws passed in Germany. It has been the 19foreign historians, like myself, who have drawn attention 20to this exchange of documents 21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your case really, as I understand it, that 22that particular example of the transport from Berlin 23demonstrates what you say was Hitler's role in relation to 24it 25A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, it is one indication. It is not the only 26evidence that I rely upon, my Lord

. P-168

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, that is what I meant by "demonstrate", "illustrates" 2is a better word 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I am careful there, because when I introduced in my 4previous book, the November 30 handwritten annotation by 5Himmler, my opponent said, "this is his only evidence, 6this is what he relies on", and it was not, I had more. 7My Lord, we shall be hearing at a later stage in these 8proceedings Dr John Fox, who is an expert, among other 9things, on these police decodes, and I shall be asking 10him, with your Lordship's permission, the condition of 11these decodes and are they wall to wall? Is everything 12there, or are there gaps? If one finds an item like this, 13of course, it is a nugget, one is not entitled to expect 14to find it, but one find it and here it is, suddenly in 15our faces, you cannot ignore it. There are several 16documents like that, my Lord 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, I was going to invite you to perhaps pass on now 18from the shootings of the Jews and to skip section 3, 19which is the Leuchter Report 20A.
[Mr Irving]
While I am in full flood can I move on to another Hitler 21document just three months later 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, of course 23A.
[Mr Irving]
After the Danzig Conference, which was an interministerial 24conflict on the executive measures for the Final Solution, 25whatever it was, there was a lot of paperwork in 199 -- 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
In 1942

. P-169

1A.
[Mr Irving]
In 1942, the Danzig Conference was held on January 20th 21942, my Lord. After the Danzig Conference the ministries 3engaged in a lot of paperwork, and at one stage the 4necessity was ventilated of bringing up this matter with 5Adolf Hitler, whatever the Final Solution was, the 6Ministry of Justice began to get uneasy about it, because 7they could see it had ugly connotations; there were 8illegalities being adumbrated, and the head of the German 9Civil Service, Dr Hans Lammers, who was a minister, a 10Reich minister, telephoned the head of the German Ministry 11of Justice, whose name was Schlegelberger, we shall be 12hearing quite a bit about the Schlegelberger document and 13in this telephone conversation which Schlegelberger wrote 14a minute on, or what a lawyer would probably call an 15"attendance note", Lammers said "the Fuhrer", Adolf 16Hitler, "the Fuhrer", Adolf Hitler, "has repeatedly said 17he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed 18after until the war is over". This is a document that is 19caused my opponents immense difficulties. The 20difficulties they solved initially by pretending it did 21not exist, by which I mean they did not quote it. They 22did not adduce it in their history books, and when that 23thorn in the flesh, David Irving, kept on reminding them 24of existence of this document, which tripped them up 25whatever their hypotheses were, that is when the real 26battle began, the skirmishing began. But I think your

. P-170

1Lordship will appreciate that I am entitled to point to 2that document as being another document in that chain of 3evidence, unless of course I have deliberately 4mistranslated it, or misconstrued it 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, I do not think that is suggested 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but it is clearly a very important document. A 7wartime document written by a lawyer on a phone call from 8the head of the German Civil Service, who is the next one 9up to Adolf Hitler, saying the Fuhrer has repeatedly said 10he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed 11until after the war was over, which was typical Adolf 12Hitler, anything like that he wanted put on the back 13burner he had fought this ghastly war through. There were 14several problems like that, the church problem was another 15one 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What was Schlegelberger's position 17A.
[Mr Irving]
He was at that time, as I understand it, Secretary of 18State, which is the equivalent of a permanent Under 19Secretary in a British ministry. In the Ministry of 20Justice, his Minister was Dr Franz Goertner, who I believe 21had died recently at that time, so he was effectively in 22charge of the Ministry, Schlegelberger, and the minute he 23wrote was directed to a few notorious names including 24Rowland Friessler. It is quite an interesting document 25and interesting about the document, my Lord, is at the 26time of the Nuremberg trials it vanished. It remained in

. P-171

1original in the Ministry files, but the photocopies 2provided to the lawyers at Nuremberg, this extraordinary 3document, vanished. It was not there, and it gave me a 4lot of trouble locating the original eventually 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. Would you like to pass on now, do you accept that 6the Leuchter report is plainly part and parcel of the 7Auschwitz issue 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think that must be right. Then the next section in the 10Defendant's summary of case, which is - 11A.
[Mr Irving]
The Leuchter Report, of course, exists in two 12incarnations, my Lord. The original Leuchter Report was an 13affidavit drawn up as an expert report for the Canadian 14courts and what we published was a glossy version 15truncated and streamlined 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- but it was basically the same 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Made the same allegations and on the same contentions 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
We will leave that on one side, shall we 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I can see it comes in in some other context. Then there 21is a heading called "Historiography", this is really the 22section where there are a whole series of detailed 23criticisms made of you, it being alleged that you have 24skewed documents and generally behaved in a - 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Reprehensible - 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- disreputable way as a historian in your treatment of

. P-172

1the evidence. Now it is up to you how you deal with it, 2you can either deal with it generally, or you can make 3some specific points on the instances that are cited 4against you 5A.
[Mr Irving]
-- well, the general statement I would say is Mandy 6Rice-Davies, they have to say this, my Lord, they would 7say, would they not? My opponents, who I could also 8categorise as my rivals, dislike the fact that I get to 9the documents before them. For 30 years I have been the 10one to dig out the diaries. 11 By way of a general remark I would say I that 12I would visit the widows and obtain the papers, not 13because I was more industrious than them, but purely 14because I took the trouble. I visited the widow of State 15Secretary Anstrom Wiedsecher, who had been Ribbentrop's 16State Secretary. She was Baroness Marianne von Wiedsecher, 17who was subsequently the mother of the State President of 18Germany, President von Wiedsecher and it turned out that 19she had all her husband's diaries and letters, which she 20made available to me, and was rather puzzled that she had 21not made them available to the German historians and her 22reply was, "Mr Irving, they never asked". It was the same 23with very many other historians -- many other historical 24sources. Purely by virtue of visiting the widows or next 25of kin or digging around I have obtained these diaries and 26private papers

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1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But leaving aside digging out the evidence 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, this generated the envy and jealousy which is 3unfortunately what has fuelled lot of the criticism 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I hear you say that, but what about the criticism of the 5use that you make the evidence once you have got it 6because what is said against you is that you pick and 7choose 8A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, this is almost certainly something which can only 9be dealt with on piecemeal basis, they will put individual 10documents to me in cross-examination and to their delight 11I may occasionally concede that, yes, I got something 12wrong. I will concede that I misread the word "harbun" in 13Himmler's appalling handwriting, and if you were to have a 14look at his handwriting you will see how very similar it 15is. I will provide the documents to your Lordship 16tomorrow to the alternative word. This kind of thing 17happens 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, if I may say so, I think you are right that this 19particular topic has to be dealt with on a .. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Piecemeal basis 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, case by case basis, I think that is it probably 22right, but if you want to say anything more generally at 23the moment about your -- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I will say generally, of course, and it is important for 25the case to know, and I am saying this on oath, I have 26never knowingly or wilfully misrepresented a document or

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1misquoted it, or suppressed parts of the document which 2would run counter to my case, I think it is important to 3state that. Any of the other allegations in that line, 4misquoting, misconstruing, mistranslating, distorting or 5manipulating a document I have not done. I shall be very 6surprised indeed if the defence manage to make out a 7watertight case on even one document in that line. 8I think I would hang up my hat if that could be 9established against me. It would be a despicable thing 10for a historian to do, but it would be also very 11difficult, because in my case I have always 12instantaneously made my documents available to my 13opponents. Sometimes in advance of publication of my own 14book I would turn over documents like the Bruns Report to 15Professor Fleming. When I found the article Aumeier 16Report in the British archives I actually contacted 17Professor Richard van Pelt, whose book on Auschwitz 18I greatly admired and I said you will certainly find this 19document of great interest and I told him exactly where 20the file was to be found. I have always been like that. 21It would be very difficult simultaneously do that, my 22Lord, and at the same time distort the document because 23you are going to get found out and shot. So I did not do 24it. But that is the only general remark I would make and 25possibly of importance because it is a statement on oath 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think that is right. The next topic that is addressed

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1by the Defendants is the bombing of Dresden in 1945 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Again, I will make a general statement on it, my Lord. 3This was the -- it was not actually the first book 4I wrote. The first book I wrote was a history of the 5bombing war, but it was only published in German -- in 6Switzerland. It was written at the same time as I wrote 7the book "The Destruction of Dresden", which was a three 8year task, between 1961 and 1963. 9 I emphasise the years, because in 1961 and 1963, 10of course, we were not in the happy position that we are 11in now where we can go to the public archives and see the 12documents. I understand that I can go down the road to 13the public archives and actually see correspondence that 14I had with Harold Wilson, this kind of thing. 15I personally frown on it. I liked the old 50 year rule 16because there were ways round it. But in those years there 17was a 50 year rule in operation. In you wanted to write a 18history of something that happened in World War II you 19could not get the original documents if you were not an 20official historian 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That is from the British - 22A.
[Mr Irving]
From the British point of view 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- what about the German records, were they available 24A.
[Mr Irving]
The German records were in a more difficult position 25because Dresden lay in the Soviet zone of Germany, the 26German Democratic Republic as it had by that time become

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1and although I had established cordial relations with City 2Archives Director in Dresden, Dr Walter Lange, they were 3under no kind of obligation or compulsion to make their 4records available to me and they did so on a very 5piecemeal basis, what the Germans would call in salami 6slices, piece by piece they would give me a document, 7according to how they thought they could fit it into the 8Cold War propaganda. I had to weigh it from that point of 9view. 10 I emphasise this because three years later after 11the book was published those same officials in East 12Germany decided they had now just found a report on the 13statistics on the air raid on Dresden which produced 14figures which were different from mine 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You are making this point really to explain why your 16estimate of the number of deaths, which is really what the 17Dresden issue is about 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Has fallen fairly dramatically from a quarter of a 20million - 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I would not say "fallen", that implies only way, I would 22say "fluctuate" 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- in a downwards direction, would you accept that 24A.
[Mr Irving]
If you were a scientist you would not say "the figure is 25this", you would say it is probably that, with a upper 26margin of this and a lower margin of that. You would give

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1a range of probabilities, and the range of probabilities 2I have given has remained roughly the same, but I have 3brought down the target figure. The original figure 4I gave, I hasten to add, was not my figure, it was the 5figure given to me by a man who met the Trevor Roper 6criteria. If you remember, my Lord, somebody who is in a 7position to know. 8 This was a man who was school teacher in Hanover 9who had nothing to gain from it, who had asked no money 10for it, but after the air raid on Dresden, which took 11place on February 13th 1945, this school teacher had the 12unfortunate task of running the missing persons bureau in 13Dresden, the Dead Person Section, he had been given the 14job of setting a card index in this appalling task of 15trying to identify the dead. They did it, for example, 16they collected buckets of wedding rings from the corpses. 17I am sure the defence will appreciate when I talk about 18buckets of wedding rings, gold wedding rings, were 19collected from the corpses of the air raid victims because 20inside a German wedding ring there is the initials and the 21date of the wedding, so they could identify the corpse 22from that. Or they could have an index card just saying 23"KD" and a date on the inside of wedding ring. They built 24up this card index. 25 Of course, this was incomplete because they had 26not got all the corpses and not all the corpses were

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1adults, not all the adults were married. But he was able 2to extrapolate and he kept a diary, which he also made 3available to me. When I asked him the 60,000 dollar 4question, I said, Dr Voigt or Mr Voigt, how many people in 5your estimate died in that air raid on Dresden? He gave 6me an upper estimate and a lower estimate, and he then 7said that in his own belief the figure was probably 8135,000. Which was the figure I then used, and I quoted 9the source as being this man. In other words it was not a 10figure on my authority, it was a figure on the authority 11of the source. I see no reason really to depart from that 12figure because, it may sound self-defeating, I say that 13there is not much difference between 135,000 dead and 1435,000 dead. Both of them are a monstrous tragedy or 15crime, depending on which end of scale you are viewing it 16from. If you are one of those dead it hurts just as much 17if you are one of the 35,000 or one of 135,000. So 18I confess that I did not dedicate as much work to try to 19pin down the actual death roll as no doubt the defence 20would have liked me to have done, the Defendants in this 21case, my Lord. 22 But I would also submit this cannot be 23categorized as being wilful misrepresentation, or 24distortion. My Lord, you will remember that I said that 25the German police chief's document giving a different 26death figure had been found three years after I wrote the

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1book. It was supplied to me by the East German 2authorities, very kindly, voluntarily, and by an 3extraordinary coincidence in exactly the same post 4I received from the West German Government a summary of 5the German Finance Ministry files for that week which 6contained precisely the same figures that that East German 7document contained, because otherwise one which might have 8suspected this was an East German cold war propaganda 9trick. So it was a very authentic kind of document. But 10even then you had to say the document was dated, 11I believe, March 10th 1945, less than four weeks after the 12air raid on Dresden. 13 My Lord, I do not know if you have seen the 14photographs of Dresden after the air raid. There was not 15very much left standing. The building -- the city was 16pancaked. Nobody had excavated the city centre. The 17people who were living in the old town were still buried 18in the basements where they had been suffocated or crushed 19alive. So the figure that the Police Chief gave in his 20report of March 4th 1945 could still only be regarded as 21provisional 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What is the figure in the current edition of "Destruction 23of Dresden" 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I just complete what I was about to say, I was just 25pausing for dramatic effect. The step which I then took, 26having received this document, was as follows:

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1I discussed it with my publisher, and I said that it was 2an important enough document that I had to draw it to the 3attention of the reading public immediately, and he -- 4Mr Kimber -- and Mr Kimber, God rest his soul, he said: 5David do not do that. If you do, it will come down on 6your head. It will reflect on you in a bad way, and I said 7this is an important document, and I have a duty to bring 8it to the attention of reading public, and I sent it as a 9letter to The Times, which is in the discovery, and The 10Times newspaper published it, I believe, on July 6th 1966, 11within a very true days of my actually receiving the 12document from the East Germans, the new figures, the fact 13that there was a considerably lower death roll estimated 14by the local Police Chief. I added my reservations, the 15fact that the city was still largely unexcavated, even 16then, in 1966 and the fact that local Police Chief was in 17charge of air raid civil defence measures. So he had no 18reason to give a bigger figure. He would prefer to give a 19lower figure 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
This is Mr Grosse 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I cannot remember exactly which name it was, the man who 22wrote the final report. Grosse wrote the incorrect 23report, the propaganda report, my Lord. I emphasise the 24fact that I made this immediately known to the reading 25public and not only that but at my own expense I had a 26reprint made of that letter by The Times newspaper. I had

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1500 copies printed and for the next few years I enclosed 2that letter with all my correspondence to other 3historians. 4 Now I do not know any other historian who would 5have taken action like that, my Lord. He would hoped 6nobody found out, possibly. He certainly would not have 7gone out of the way to draw the attention of other people 8to an error or possible error that he had made in one of 9his own books. To find myself now, 30 years later, 10defending myself against the allegation of manipulation 11and distortion beggers description, it is repugnant, my 12Lord 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What is the figure in the current edition of "Destruction 14of Dresden" for the number of deaths 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I have reduced my best estimate to the region of 60,000. 16This is the edition which is called "Apocalypse 1945" the 17destruction of Dresden because it was not until three 18years ago that I sat down and analysed that Police Chief's 19report and compared it with the Grosse Report and saw the 20obvious similarities and the obvious discrepancies and 21decided that the Grosse Report had been deliberately 22issued by the Propaganda Ministry for propaganda 23purposes. But 60,000, my Lord, 35,000, 135,000, you may 24disagree with me, but I see no difference between these 25figures, any more than somebody whose says it was not 6 26million who died in the Holocaust, it was only one million

. P-182

1which is the kind of sentence I would never utter because 2each one of those people being killed is a crime and 3I consider people being killed in saturation bombing air 4raids, although I am British, I think it is wrong 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Do you sometimes in your books make comparisons between 6the number of deaths caused by Allied bombing raids with 7the number of deaths caused by Nazi bombing raids 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I think the word "comparison" would be wrong, my Lord, but 9I have done it in a way that possibly a journalist would, 10I have mentioned the facts in successive sentences. 11 In my very first book "The Destruction of 12Dresden", if your Lordship were to turn to the very last 13page of that book, which I have with me, and it is in the 14bundles I distributed this morning, of "The Destruction of 15Dresden", the very last page says: "That this was 16undoubtedly a terrible crime. It was a crime committed 17against a city in Germany, a country which had carried out 18the most appalling massacres against helpless citizens." 19I forget the actual wording I used, but it is in that 20book. There was that kind of comparison. I do not 21consider it to be offensive to say too colloquially "you 22did it too" and when airmen say, as I asked them at the 23time, I would ask the Bomber Command airmen who pressed 24the button and dropped the bombs, I would say to them what 25were your feelings? They said they had no feeling because 26they could not see their victims. I consider this is not

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1an adequate justification but I do not think this goes to 2the issues in this case 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. The next section is the allegation that is made by 4the Defendants that you consort and associate with some 5pretty unsavoury characters in North America and 6elsewhere; that is to say very right-wing extremists 7A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, can I deal with this in summary in general 8terms 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 10A.
[Mr Irving]
At this stage, undoubtedly if they want to go through it 11piece by piece and name by name and phrase by phrase 12MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I am sorry to intervene, particularly to 13correct a judge, but your Lordship might have missed a 14couple of sections, I think 15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have I 16MR RAMPTON: After Dresden comes -- it may be because the way 17the file is arranged 18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is Hitler's Adjutants 19MR RAMPTON: Yes, Hitler's Adjutants 20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That does not belong in Dresden 21MR RAMPTON: No 22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is rather why I skipped it 23MR RAMPTON: Another route to the exoneration. But your 24Lordship went straight from Dresden to right wing 25extremism 26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes

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1MR RAMPTON: Along the way jumping over Hitler's Adjutants 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And Nazi anti-Semitism 3MR RAMPTON: Yes 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are quite right 5MR RAMPTON: Hitler Adjutants is quite an important section, 6certainly 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you for that, Mr Rampton. Can 8I therefore invite you to comment on the -- you will find 9this as page 7 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 7 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The allegation that you really ignored the evidence when 12you claim - 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Shall we go through 1 to 6 in detail, my Lord, now 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- yes, if you would like to because Mr Rampton is quite 15right - 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The allegation is that I ignored the most basic cautions 17in interviewing members of Hitler's staff. Well, jealousy 18place a part in this. Adolf Hitler's personal staff at 19the end of World War II, so far as they survived, were 20very bruised people. He had four female secretaries, they 21were all locked up for periods of several years by the 22Allies. I remember my friend, Ralph Hoffmann, who 23I invited to lunch just to see what it would be like to 24having a liberal playwright lunching with Hitler's 25secretary. When he heard that the Americans had locked 26her up for two years he said but why did they put you in

. P-185

1prison? She said I typed for the Fuhrer. I typed for the 2Fuhrer. He said, but millions carried guns for the 3Fuhrer. They were very bruised people. They did not want 4to speak to their own historians and they certainly did 5not want to speak to the former enemy. It took me many 6years to win their confidence by methods that might be 7found odious. I would become very friendly. In the case 8Christa Schroeder particularly, I would just invite her 9out to lunch and say Frau Schroeder we will not talk about 10the War, knowing very well that she would want eventually 11to mention something that happened. But at the moment 12I took out a pen she would clam up. She would not say 13anything, so I had to write a note afterwards. It was this 14kind of situation. Very delicate, drawing them out and 15then eventually after five or ten years Christa Schroeder 16revealed that she had written private letters to a woman 17friend throughout her time with Hitler and she got all 18those letters back. She produced the letters and gave them 19to me. 20 The allegation is -- I think allegation No. 2 21that I would use documents like that in injudiciously. 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- just one more question on the first criticism; you say 23that you accept that you did not approach the matter in 24what you regard as the ideal way, but you say there was no 25all alternative because that was the only way of getting 26these people to talk

. P-186

1A.
[Mr Irving]
A historian is accustomed to going to archives or my 2reproof to the historians, particularly of the Defendants' 3historians, is that they sit if their book lined caves 4taking books out of shelves, taking a sentence and working 5it into their own fabric and at the end of the day not 6cricking anything to the sum total of human knowledge. 7I did the exact opposite. I ignored the book lined 8caves. I did not reads their books, which they regarded 9as a personal slight. I went to the very fountainhead of 10the information, the people who had worked at Hitler's 11side for twelve years. By then I aver and I submit and 12I strongly resent in this court on oath at no time was 13I not aware of the fact that I had to treat what they said 14to me with the utmost caution, and it was only when I was 15satisfied they were being completely frank with me, that 16I added weight to the evidence they gave me and I will 17give two examples of that, my Lord. One of them was 18Walter Frentz. He was the personal film camera man 19attached to Hitler's staff and he took the colour 20photographs of Hitler's staff which figure in a lot of my 21books. One day Heinrich Himmler said to Walter Frentz in 22August 1941, which he told me and this is the reason I am 23saying this, because I persuaded him to tell me something 24against himself. He said that Heinrich Himmler had said 25to him in August 1941, Herr Frentz it gets very boring 26here at the wolf's lair, doesn't it? We are going out to

. P-187

1the Eastern Front for a few days, do you want do come with 2us? Two or three days later Himmler said to Walter Frentz 3and Frentz related to me this one evening over a body of 4wine (he is still alive) at Lake Constance. Himmler said 5to Frentz, tomorrow we are going to be doing a mass 6shooting, do you want to come along and have a look? The 7next morning in the misty hours of dawn Frentz and Himmler 8and Carl Wolf, and a number of other SS gentlemen, Frentz 9himself is in the airforce, found themselves standing at 10one end of a field outside Minsk, at the other end of 11which, as Frentz described it to me, large pits had been 12dug out by "backhose" or bulldozers and truck loads of 13civilians who were being driven up and stood of this pit 14and being machine gunned in the pit. He described this to 15me in great deal. I do not have to go into all the detail 16he gave here, my Lord. His wife was very astonished to 17hear this. Halfway through this description his wife, 18Mrs Frentz, said, Walter, I have never heard this before. 19And Walter went slightly pink because I suppose he was in 20his cups and he had not realized he had told me so much. 21Mrs Frentz niggled slightly in the way that wives do and 22said, Walter, you say these were civilians being shot, 23were there women and children being shot too? Walter 24Frentz said, "I cannot remember", but you could tell from 25the way he said "I cannot remember" that he could. 26 My Lord, I aver that if I get that kind of

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1information out for the first time from a man who has not 2even told it to his own wife, then I have succeeded in 3extracting information, even from Hitler's Adjutants. 4 There is another episode of exactly the same 5character. I persuaded a man to talk to me who had been 6the Adjutant, not of Hitler, but the Adjutant of Hitler's 7Adjutant, his SS Adjutant. Hitler's SS Adjutant was an SS 8general named Hermann Fegolein. He subsequently married 9the sister of Eva Braun. Hermann Fegolein's Adjutant was 10Johannes Gohler, who lived in Stuttgart 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
May I interrupt you, it is going to be helpful to the 12transcriber, who is having a fairly massive task with all 13these names if you when you mention a fresh name just 14spell it out 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I have given her a list of 5,000 names. His Adjutant was a 16man I am going to speak of SS Colonel Gohler. I will not 17bother with the accents. Johannes Gohler told me that in 18the last days of the War, in April 1945, he was present 19when Heinrich Himmler, the chief of the SS came to see 20Hitler and reported that there was a concentration camp in 21Turinier (?), probably the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, 22about to be captured by the American forces, and what they 23should they do with the inmates, because they could not 24evacuate them all in time, Gohler said to me, Mr Irving, 25Hitler said, Herr Heiss Fuhrer, stay over until the end of 26the conference. After the conference Gohler said, after

. P-189

1the conference Hitler sat on the edge of the conference 2table with his legs dangling and said, "Herr Himmler, 3those convicts are to be liquidated if they cannot be 4evacuated in time". I asked Mr Gohler about that episode 5on three separate occasions, spread over several years 6just to see if there were discrepancies in the different 7versions, rather like a stereoscopic picture of the 8episode. The narrative remained the same. You will find 9that particular episode in my books on Adolf Hitler. That 10is an episode recounted to me by an SS officer against the 11reputation and honour of the SS and against the honour and 12reputation of Adolf Hitler, yet I extracted it from 13Hitler's Adjutants, or the person who I would certainly 14put in this category. This is what entitles me to aver 15once again that I have not failed in my duty as an 16historian in so far as the Adjutants are concerned 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That conversation, which I am bound to say I do not 18remember, is in "Hitler's War" 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Certainly in "Hitler's War" 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Cited in a way that accepts it did happen 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Unquestionably, my Lord, yes 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I am afraid I have not got that in my mind. Yes. I think 23you were on the.. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
That was number 2 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. That is illustrative, is it really, about what you 26are saying about that criticism

. P-190

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the plaintiff, that is myself, is tendentious in his 2choice and interpretation of documents, rejecting out of 3hand the greater wealth of statements. My Lord, you will 4have noticed the subtle difference between statements and 5documents, I am sure. Directly implicating Hitler in the 6Final Solution and adopting as persuasive the few 7statements exculpating Hitler without any proper 8explanation for so doing. 9 My Lord, in your former incarnation as a 10barrister I am sure you have also had to weigh statements 11and documents and decide which you attach more importance 12to. Documents in this connection are anything from a 13wartime document, a microfilm, a tape recording, an aerial 14photograph, a deciphered intercept, or even a building as 15document in this connection; where a statement made by 16somebody for whatever purpose, usually to exculpate 17himself and pass the blame on to somebody else, as 18frequently happened in the war crimes trials, is to be 19viewed with the utmost suspicion. 20 Statements in my submission are usually relied 21upon by people who have not got enough documents, they 22have not got enough documents because they have not gone 23out and done the fieldwork. They like using the 24statements because they fit in with their preconceived 25notions, whereas the documents like the ones I have 26I mentioned, the Schlegelberger document and the Himmler

. P-191

1telephone notes are inconvenient. They find no 2explanation for them. So they prefer their statements to 3my documents, my Lord. This may seem a trite answer, but 4it is the answer which I shall give until they come at me 5with chapter and verse in cross-examination 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I think this is another example of an allegation that 7is really only capable of being dealt with by looking at 8the individual cases relied on 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I think the choice of words between their statements and 10my documents is not by happen chance, I think they have 11chosen the word "statement" deliberately because they 12intended to put to me self-serving statements made by 13people in various war crimes trials under whatever 14conditions against the documents which I have obtained 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. Now the next criticism really relates, I think, to 16mainly to the way in which you dismiss some sources which 17do not say what you want them to say 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure your Lordship is also a bit baffled as to what 19they are getting at here, I am sure Mr Rampton will assist 20us when he comes to the cross-examination. If they are 21saying I do not put in adequate apparatuses in my book 22saying what sources and archives I have used there are 23several reasons for that 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think the key phrase in that criticism is "double 25standards"; I think what is said against you is that you 26are inclined to adopt uncritically some source material

. P-192

1because it suits your agenda, as they put it, whereas you 2dismiss - 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I accept - 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- more reliable evidence because it does not fit in with 5your agenda 6A.
[Mr Irving]
-- I accept that that is a valid criticism, my Lord. AGP 7Taylor said the same to me once. He said, when you are 8looking at the Final Solution you are asking for a 9document, when you looking at what happened to General 10Sikorski you are quite happy to make allegations without a 11document. There are answers you can give. It is a valid 12criticism, but I am not going to say it is a "correct 13criticism" 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can you explain what you mean by that 15A.
[Mr Irving]
They are entitled to make that criticism on their 16perception of the way history is written. If I take that 17specific example, that there is no document -- I point out 18there is no document showing that Hitler even knew about 19Auschwitz, whereas when I wrote about the death of General 20Sikorski in a book published in 1967 I am accused of 21having said it was probably sabotage even though there is 22no documentary evidence to suggest it was. This is 23I think an acceptable distinction because we are after all 24the victor nation; all our records are intact. We lost 25none of our records through World War II. We were not 26invaded by the Red Army; our archives were not bombed and

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1blasted and burnt to pieces. Our archives are intact. We 2now no longer have a 50 year rule, and so we would be 3entitled to expect to find as a result of our having had 4unconditional surrender from the Germans and total insight 5into their archives we would expect to find the record 6relating to Hitler, then we would not expect to find in 7the British Secret Service archives, which, of course, are 8only the archives which are still closed in this country. 9That became a bit convoluted, if I had a second chance 10I would say it again slightly differently 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think I understand what you are saying. You are really 12saying that because the German archive is incomplete - 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, we have total insight into the German archives such 14as they have survived by virtue of unconditional surrender 15which we did not have at the end of World War I, but we 16certainly had at the end of World War II. There are no 17German archives that were withheld from the invading 18forces. 19 So after over 50 years we would be entitled by 20now to have found the document that proves me wrong, 21whereas we are not entitled to expect to find records 22about General Sikorski, even now, because it would have 23been a Secret Service matter and Secret Service files are 24closed for at least the next 100 years. 25 So it looks like a double standard to start with 26until you realise you are looking at two different

. P-194

1theatres of operation. But, again, if they want to put 2specific examples to me, some I will concede, and most 3I will not, probably 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- well, I think before we move on to the next point we 5will adjourn and resume, if you will, please, at 62 o'clock 7 (Luncheon adjournment) 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, can I before we resume with your 9evidence just ask Mr Rampton something, if you will 10forgive me? It is a logistical question, Mr Rampton. 11Assuming you are going to be starting to cross-examine 12this afternoon --- 13MR RAMPTON: Yes 14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- I am wondering whether I have all the 15files that I ought to have here because what I do not want 16to find happening is that you ask a question in relation 17to a document that I do not have a copy of. Are you able 18to help 19MR RAMPTON: Can I just say, I do not know how long I will get, 20but assuming it were an hour or so, your Lordship would 21need the copy of Mr Irving's opening which you should have 22already 23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have 24MR RAMPTON: And files D2(i), (ii) and (iii) 25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have all of those too 26MR RAMPTON: The only other thing that your Lordship would need

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1would be Professor Evans' report if we got as far as that. 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have that. Thank you very much. I thought 3I had better check 4A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, before you resume your examination or your 5questioning, can I raise just two points 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Of course, yes 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I drew your Lordship's attention to a newspaper, a leading 8article which appeared in The Independent this morning 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Which I have read. I cannot lay my hands on it at the 10moment 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I have it here, my Lord. I personally found it pushing 12the envelope of what is permissible, but maybe, in view of 13the fact that either I am a litigant in person or we are 14sitting without a jury, this kind of comment is permitted 15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the position really is this, 16Mr Irving. I understand what you say, but I can really 17only intervene if I were to take the view that in some 18shape or form it amounts to a contempt. I do not. I am 19fairly clearly of that view. But if it helps at all, 20I totally disregard it 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you very much, my Lord 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think I will not say any more about it 23A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, you asked in one of your questions whether I had 24compared or weighed casualties against casualties, 25atrocity against atrocity. I have referred to the final 26paragraph of my "Destruction of Dresden" book, and, my

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1Lord, the bundle which I handed you this morning which 2I believe is on the desk in front of you at this end, the 3thin bundle, is that it, bundle B on page 5 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, this is the new bundle 5A.
[Mr Irving]
That is the new one I gave you this morning. It is 6selections from the books. You already have the entire 7books 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, you mentioned that 9A.
[Mr Irving]
If you look at page 5, my Lord, big figure 5, at the foot 10of the page, there is this paragraph: "On 13th February 111946, the former Commander in Chief of RAF Bomber Command 12sailed from Southampton on the first stage of his 13journey. That night throughout eastern and central Europe 14at 10.10 p.m. the church bells began to peal. For 20 15minutes the bells ran out across the territories now 16occupied by a force as ruthless as any that the bomber 17offensive had been launched to destroy. It was the first 18anniversary of the biggest single massacre in European 19history, a massacre carried out in the cause of bringing 20to their knees a people who corrupted by Naziism had 21committed the greatest crimes against humanity in recorded 22time". 23 That is about as close as I have ever got to 24weighing atrocity against atrocity, my Lord, and that was 25in my first book 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I am just puzzled by the date

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it is the first anniversary of the Dresden raid, my 2Lord 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I see 4A.
[Mr Irving]
This is why the bells are ringing 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I see. It was the Commander in Chief of Bomber Command 6setting out that misled me 7A.
[Mr Irving]
The second page I would draw your Lordship's attention to 8concerns the adjutants. You asked whether I had made use 9of that information I obtained from the adjutants about 10Buchenwald inmates to be liquidated. Page 99, my Lord, by 11chance, is one of the pages that I included in the 12selection 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Tab 4, the last page 14A.
[Mr Irving]
It is big figures 99 at the bottom of the page. The third 15paragraph, my Lord, is: "As American troops advanced 16across ... Hitler was confronted with the problem of the 17concentration camps. Goring advised him to turn them over 18intact and under guard to the Western allies who would 19sort out the criminals from the foreign labourers and 20Russian prisoners thus preventing hoards of embittered 21ex-convicts from roaming the countryside and inflicting 22additional horrors on the law-abiding. Hitler did not 23share Goring's trust in the enemy. Sitting casually on 24the edge of the map table after one conference, he 25instructed Himmler's representative to ensure that all 26inmates were liquidated or evacuated before the camps were

. P-198

1overrun." 2 The footnote at the back of the book which I 3could show you if my Lordship is interested, because I 4have the book here, says the source of that information is 5the SS Major, who was Himmler's Adjutant's Adjutant, who 6has, however, requested that his identity be withheld. 7Some of these people at the time I wrote that book were 8still nervous about being identified, but he was the 9source 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But he is no longer nervous 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure he has no nervousness now, my Lord, because the 12years has passed, but he was the source and that was the 13episode which I recounted to you. You asked if I used it. 14 In my submission, I have used it exactly as it should 15have been used and at the proper length 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is this the 1991 edition or the 1977 17A.
[Mr Irving]
That is the very first edition, my Lord, 1997. If your 18Lordship is interested, I can certainly produce almost 19identical pages from the subsequent editions 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, do not bother. Thank you very much. Yes, now 21anything else or shall we resume? We are still on the 22topic of Hitler's Adjutants. I think you have dealt with 23criticisms (i), (ii) and (iii) 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Double standards 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And the next one is, at any rate, self-explanatory 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I distort, suppress, manipulate evidence, but until they

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1give chapter and verse, I cannot say. 2 "The Plaintiff claims falsely that all of 3Hitler's surviving adjutants, secretaries and staff had 4uniformly testified that the extermination of the Russian 5or European Jews was never mentioned at Hitler's 6headquarters. That claim is contradicted by the evidence, 7my Lord. I shall be interested to see what the evidence 8is to which they are referring 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Just pause a moment. Do you accept that you have made the 10claim that all the Hitler surviving adjutants and so on 11have uniformly testified that the extermination of the 12Russian or European Jews was never mentioned at 13Hitler's --- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I think the full extent of the statement was that they 15have been frequently questioned ever since the war both by 16American and British interrogators and by others in 17between and certainly by myself on each occasion, and each 18of them has said that this systematic extermination of the 19Jews, or whatever -- what is it -- the extermination of 20the Russian or European Jews was never mentioned at 21Hitler's headquarters, that it was never mentioned in 22their presence. Obviously, they can only testify to what 23they personally witnessed and that was all I was 24interested in 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, but the point I was on really was this, you have made 26that claim

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
I have made that claim 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You say it is a true claim 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I have maintained that it is true claim. If, however, the 4Defendants produce new evidence that it is false, I will 5accept that evidence, but that does not amount to my 6having distorted and manipulated. They would have to show 7that evidence was on my desk within my four walls, so to 8speak 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. The last one 10A.
[Mr Irving]
"In full knowledge of the historical detail, the Plaintiff 11subjectively filtered, bent and manipulated his sources to 12his own political and ideological desire to exculpate 13Mr Hitler." Well, that is a bit of a polemical question, 14I suppose, in which the sting is in the question rather 15than in the answer 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Not really. Anyway, answer it 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the answer is under oath, no. My Lord, I have never 18consciously done any of those things in order to exculpate 19Hitler. In fact, I have bent over backwards to include 20what I knew from reliable sources which met my criteria, 21and in the very introduction to my book "Hitler's War" 22which is included in the bundle which I provided this 23morning, my Lord, I gave a short list, a check list, of 24the crimes he did commit: "He issued the commisart order 25for the liquidation of the Soviet commisarts and signed 26it. He issued the euthanasia order for the killing of the

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1mentally disabled and signed it, back-dated it to 2September 1st 1939. He ordered the killing of British 3commandos who fell into German captivity. He ordered the 4liquidation of the male population of Stalingrad and 5Leningrad..." and so on. There is a long list of these 6crimes which I gave as a kind of check list form in the 7introduction of the book specifically to avoid the kind of 8accusation that I apprehended would one day be made 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I suppose, to be balanced, you would accept that you would 10not only need that short list, but also a list of what one 11might call the opposite points where you say --- 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Said nice things about him 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- said commendatory things about him which, I think it 14is right to say, you do from time to time in "Hitler's 15War" 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I have obviously said commendatory things about him. 17There was a time when he was on the right course and then 18he went off the rails. That is roughly what I have said. 19But, of course, he was not on the right rails in every 20respect. You cannot praise his racial programmes. You 21cannot praise his penal methods. But, on the other hand, 22he did pick his nation up from out of the mire after World 23War II and reunify it and gave it a sense of direction and 24a sense of pride again which, from the German point of 25view, though not from the English point of view, was 26something commendable. I say those things which need to

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1be said and it would be wrong to suppress them 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
May I just ask you one thing that struck me when I was 3reading "Hitler's War" which is that I think you say in 4the Forward that you are writing it, as it were, from his 5perspective 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, my Lord --- 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is that a usual way to approach an historical biography 8A.
[Mr Irving]
No. It is my trademark way of writing, the books which 9I have written. If you collect enough original primary 10sources, first of all, you are confronted with many 11problems. First of all, a super abundance of material and 12you have to decide which way you slice that particular 13cake. The easy way that I decided to slice the cake was 14to say let us imagine we are sitting in his swivel chair 15and that confronting us, as writer, are only the documents 16that passed across his desk. It is, in theory, a nice 17idea; in practice, it is more difficult to put into 18effect. But this is the first criterion you apply, and 19you then tell the story as seen from his viewpoint and in 20the sequence in which it came to him. 21 I give one example: The July 20th 1944 bomb 22blot. Every other writer would describe the planning of 23the bomb plot and the conspiratorial meetings and the 24arrangement and the provision of the explosives and the 25comings together and the various failed attempts. In my 26book, your Lordship will have noticed the first we know

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1about the bomb plot is when the bomb goes off under your 2table. Then, retrospectively, you see the Gestapo reports 3and the enquiries and the investigations, and you find out 4this was not the first time they tried do it and so on. 5You may say it is a literary trick as a literary advice, 6which is why my books are probably more readable than 7their books, but I do not think it is something 8necessarily derogatory 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Now, I think, unless you want to add anything on the topic 10of Hitler's adjutants, the next section or the next part 11of this section is the question of Nazi anti-Semitism. 12What is said against you is that you tried to blame what 13was done during the Third Reich against Jews upon the Jews 14themselves 15A.
[Mr Irving]
That is a gross oversimplification. I do not level that 16accusation at your Lordship, of course, but I think it 17would be a gross oversimplification to put my conclusions 18in that way. I have said on a number of occasions, for 19example, most recently to Daniel Goldhagen who wrote a 20book on Hitler and his executioners. If I was a Jew, 21I would be far more concerned, not by the question of who 22pulled the trigger, but why; and I do not think that has 23ever been properly investigated. Anti-Semitism is a 24recurring malaise in society. It recurs not just in 25Germany, not just in Europe, but it keeps on coming back. 26If I had enough spare time, one day I would like to sit

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1down and investigate just that, the root causes of it, but 2I do not have the qualifications and the training for it, 3my Lord, and I suppose nobody in this room probably does. 4One would have it have a great degree of independence, 5independence of mind and independence of means, but there 6must be some reason why anti-Semitism keeps on breaking 7out like some kind of epidemic. 8 That is at the root of several of the books that 9I have recently written, probably most recently in 10Dr Goebbels' biography where we had the phenomenon of 11Dr Goebbels who, on the evidence of his own private 12letters in his earliest youth was the opposite of 13anti-Semitic. He actually ticked off his girlfriend for 14writing an anti-Semitic letter to him, saying that this 15kind of sentiment is very cheap and needless, and yet he 16later on becomes the worst and most criminal anti-Semite 17of all times. One can say facetiously, is it something in 18the water? But something must have caused him to change. 19I do not think it is irresponsible to ask that question, 20even if one cannot provide a full answer 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can I just be clear what you are meaning when you say 22 "something must have caused that change" -- something 23done by the Jews themselves 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Something which I have not been able to establish and 25something which I am frightened of even investigating, and 26I do not really have to investigate because it would not

. P-205

1come within the purview of a biographer to start getting 2involved in sociological problems, I do not think 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is it not an historical problem as well 4A.
[Mr Irving]
It is an historical problem but for somebody else to 5investigate because I am in trouble as it is, my Lord, and 6I do not think that one would earn any great kudos for 7investigating that because, frankly, I do not have the 8qualifications to investigate it. I am not a 9sociologist. My findings would not be heeded anyway. So 10I would prefer to spend the time somewhere else that was 11put to better use. But I did what I could in the case of 12Dr Goebbels, as you will see, trying to develop why he 13became an anti-Semite. 14 I think what is most offensive in my works is 15the apportionment of blame between Hitler and Goebbels 16which a lot people find offensive. They find it 17incredible, but I think that it is well-founded in my 18works 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, well, I think perhaps we can move on, if you are 20ready to, to the --- 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Extremism 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- penultimate topic, I think, which is your alleged 23association with Neo Nazis and other right-wing 24extremists 25A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I would make a general comment here, and I think 26it was in this very building only a few weeks ago that

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1Moreland J said that there is no such crime in Britain as 2guilt by association and there never has been, and it 3would be very difficult to define and very difficult to 4pursue in any way. 5 I suppose it can easily be said (and I am making 6no great concession here) if I say that probably everybody 7in this courtroom has acquaintances who they shudder when 8they ring the door bell. When you hold a cocktail party, 9you say you hope that Smith does not come or whoever it is 10but, on the other hand, he is an agreeable person to have 11around. This does not mean to say that you share all of 12Smith's opinions. 13 Sometimes when the allegation is made, as it is 14made, I am rather shocked to say, in some of the expert 15statement, the expert reports, that it is not Smith that 16I am being accused of being associated with, but somebody 17who is associated with Smith, then it is beginning to 18become rather like that musical song about "I danced with 19a man who danced with a girl who danced with the Prince of 20Wales". How far down the line does this buck stop? Does 21it mean that everybody who is in this room is in some way 22polluted by being in the same room as I am? It is 23ridiculous. Which way does this particular flow of odium 24run? 25 I think it is a very loose kind of argument when 26people say, "Look who he is in the same room with" or

. P-207

1 "Look who comes to hear him speak" which is what a lot of 2the allegations appear to be. It is name calling. It is 3a waste of the court's time, and I shall answer the 4questions, my Lord, but it is very difficult to come to 5grips with it. 6 These people are extremists by definition of 7these expert witnesses. I do not think there is any 8satisfactory definition of "extremist". In my book, an 9extremist is somebody who plants bombs under motor cars, 10somebody who plots the overthrow of governments, somebody 11who goes around with a gun in his pocket, somebody who 12holds views which are extreme, this is a very subjective 13concept. It depends on which viewpoint you view those 14views from. 15 Am I making sense, my Lord 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I understand what you are saying and, indeed, it may 17well be that this does not turn out to be one of the most 18important issues in the case 19A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I have not chosen this. This is --- 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, I appreciate that. No, that is not said in a way 21critical of you at all. But, having said that, one needs 22to break it down a little bit. I mean, do you accept that 23you have found yourself on the same platform or at the 24same meeting as a number of people who could be 25legitimately categorized as extreme right-wing fanatics 26A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the subsidiary clause there who could be legitimate

. P-208

1categorized, and you have even put it into the passive 2voice which puts one further removed -- we do not know who 3is doing the categorising 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So you are saying that the people who you found yourself 5alongside are not, in truth, right-wing extremists or 6fanatics 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not regard them as extremists, by my definition of 8the word "extremist". I am prepared to believe there are 9people at the other extreme who would regard them as 10extreme from their viewpoint because they hold views that 11are extremely or diametrically opposed to their own. But 12this is a free society. They are not extremist in the 13degree that they do not go around espousing violence or 14practising violence or advocating overthrow of 15governments. They are people who just hold views with 16which I am not necessarily associated. As your Lordship 17will have seen from the correspondence, I frequently had 18very marked altercations with these people, saying, in 19effect, "You may be a frightfully nice person privately 20and you have got a good tennis serve but, on the other 21hand, your views on the Holocaust are wrong" 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So would you say that there is not anyone who you feel, in 23hindsight, you should not have associated with 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, in retrospect, good Lord, yes! In retrospect, you 25could look out of the back of the truck as it goes 26trundling down the highway of history and you say, "I wish

. P-209

1I never get to know him", but we have all met people like 2that, my Lord. This should not be held against me. 3People change. 4 There is one particular gentleman called 5Mr Althans, Ewald Althans, who figures in this 6correspondence. He was a German character who I got to 7know when he was a student. I first met him, I think, in 81989 and my first impressions of him which I have recorded 9in my diary was that he was a very forceful, energetic, 10forthright and fearless young man. 11 It subsequently turned out he held opinions that 12could be really categorised as extreme, that he was, in 13fact, an agent of the German government and an agent 14provocateur because he testified to that effect when he 15finally got his comeuppance. I bitterly regret ever 16having made his acquaintance, and certainly if he came 17anywhere near me I would say, "Go away". If he came to my 18front door, I would pretend I was not in. Well, if that 19can be held against me, my Lord, then I think this is an 20unjust society. These things happen. People change as 21you get to know them. They become different from the way 22they were when you first knew them 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So you are saying really, are you, that you want to be 24judged by what you said rather than by what people you may 25have been at the same meeting with 26A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I am very satisfied to be judged on what I

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1have said verbally which is recorded in great abundance in 2the transcripts. I am very satisfied to be judged on the 3basis of what I have written to any of these gentlemen, 4but I do not think I should be judged on the basis of what 5they may have said either to me or to others. That is 6their own affair. Frequently, I have had cause to 7reprimand them privately and say, "Do not do it". 8 For example, I remember one trip I made to South 9Africa. The South Africans are a different people from 10us. They have different attitudes to us. I visited South 11Africa on a speaking tour and I went to Johannesburg 12Airport to pick up my assistant who was to accompany me 13and I warned her; I said, "You will find the people here 14in Johannesburg treat coloured people in a manner which is 15totally repugnant to us, but I must request you not to say 16anything about it because we are their guests", but that 17is as far as you can go 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The last topic, is there anything you want to add 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord -- unless you wanted to ask me about any 20specific names that they have mentioned? You do not 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, I was not proposing to, but if you want to say 22anything about, for example, Mr Zundel who is, perhaps, 23more important than most of the others 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Zundel, I can speak about very briefly. I first met 25Mr Zundel, Z-U-N-D-E-L, who is a German of Canadian 26extraction who has been in constant hot water for the last

. P-211

110 or 15 years, but is sill in the eyes of the law 2blameless, in other words, he has not been convicted on 3anything he has been accused of which is a matter not to 4be taken lightly, of course. A lot of accusations have 5been made against him, but he has so far not been found 6guilty of anything. 7 I first heard about him before 1986 in the most 8disparaging terms. In 1986, I conducted around the world 9lecture tour, and coming up from Australia and Fiji to 10Vancouver, I was met at Vancouver Airport in Colombia, in 11Canada, by a man who introduced himself in the car to me 12as Mr Douglas Christie. I said, "But you are the 13barrister for Mr Zundel, are you not, in the hearings in 14Toronto?" He said, "Yes, I am. I am chairing the meeting 15tonight". I was so shocked by this that I telephoned my 16tour organizer in Australia immediately and said, "I am 17afraid I cannot allow Mr Christie to act as chairman of 18tonight's meeting". My hostility to Mr Zundel at that 19time was so pronounced I would not even allow his 20barrister to come near me, in other words. 21 I then flew across to Toronto where I was to 22speak and I was picked up at Toronto Airport by two 23gentlemen who drove me down town, and half way down the 24Queen Elizabeth Highway into Toronto, one of the gentlemen 25turned to the other and said, "Ernst, I think we will put 26Mr Irving off at his hotel first". I said, "Do you mind

. P-212

1if I ask who you are?" and he said, "Yes, I am Ernst 2Zundel". I am afraid I was terribly shocked to be found 3sitting in the same car with him because the blackening of 4his name at that time had gone to such an extent that not 5only did I not want to be associated with his barrister, 6but not with him either. 7 Now I say that, having got to know him over the 8next two or three years, you realize that the reputation 9he had and the man he was were two different things. He 10was an enbattled person, coming under, I will not even say 11the same kind of attack as I have, he came under the most 12vicious kind of attack which included the burning down of 13his house and a constant onslaught and violent and 14physical assault, and he was bearing himself up with more 15fortitude than taste; and you had to realize that he was a 16man with a certain intellect, a certain sense of humour 17and execrable private opinions. That is the only way that 18I can characterize him 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I repeatedly said this, my Lord. I have sent him messages 21and letters and I have said that, frankly, your opinions 22are off the wall -- in fact, they are off the map. The 23correspondence has been in the discovery for the 24Defendants and they could have seen it and, no doubt, it 25has alarmed them because it does not confirm the picture 26that they would have wished to portray

. P-213

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But you agreed to give evidence at his trial 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I thought it was my duty as an historian, as a public 3citizen, to give evidence. I did not realize at the time 4the odium that would accrue. In fact, the element of 5odium, I think, would have been impossible in this 6country. I think it would have been almost a contempt for 7witnesses to be subjected to the kind of onslaught that 8I was after I gave evidence in that trial, but it 9happened. I wrote letters to the newspapers about it. 10I said, "This will be completely impossible in England". 11The letters were published, but there it is. 12 If people ask me now, as they have, "Would you 13do it again?" I say, "No, I would not", not because I did 14not consider my duty to give the evidence I gave as 15an historian, and I understand the Judge afterwards said 16that he had never had such a convincing witness, but it 17was a mistake, because of the fact that that has been used 18as a reason to destroy me subsequently. Frankly, I do not 19seek personal destruction. If I was given the chance to 20do it again, if the people who have destroyed me since 21came to me now and said, "Mr Irving, we are prepared to 22put you back where you were", I would say, "Show me what 23I have to sign and I will do it". It is as simple as 24that 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Then, finally, I think this is the last topic that you 26need to deal with, the allegation that you broke an

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1agreement in relation to the microfiche containing the 2Goebbels' diaries by removing them from Moscow, or from 3the archive in Moscow, and risking damage to them 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Well --- 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You dealt with this quite thoroughly in your opening 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I have to be a bit careful because you have actually 7compounded two elements in that statement. You said by 8removing the glass plates and by something else. I do not 9know what the agreement was supposed to have been. I have 10dealt with this quite thoroughly in my opening statement, 11and I am happy to aver here on oath that what I said in my 12opening statement in this respect, as in other respect, is 13true to the best of my knowledge and belief. 14 Ten years nearly, or eight years, have passed 15since that time when I was in Moscow and I obtained the 16diaries. You will be hearing the evidence of Mr Peter 17Miller who was with me at the time; and there is no 18written agreement either in my discovery or in the 19discovery produced by the Defendants who have had close 20collaboration with the Russian archival officials, will be 21able to cross-examine the Russian witnesses, and on this 22occasion they will be giving evidence, I understand, and I 23think, perhaps, we had better reserve judgment until after 24we have had the opportunity of hearing all that. 25 But, to the best of my knowledge and belief, 26there was no agreement, and I have made the admission

. P-215

1(which I had to) which was quite proper about having 2illicitly or illegally or even improperly removed the 3glass plates on the archives and returned them the next 4day and whatever which, to my mind, not such a big deal 5because they allowed me to two days later anyway 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, so far as I am concerned, that is all I was going to 7invite you to give evidence about, leaving aside 8Auschwitz, but do feel free to add anything that you think 9has not been sufficiently covered before you are 10cross-examined 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I only wanted to say that you asked me earlier about the 12consequences of the book. I mentioned the pecuniary 13consequences and I mentioned the consequences for my 14career, but there has also been a more intangible 15consequence, that I have found myself subjected to a 16burden of hatred which you cannot quantify, but which is 17quite definitely there, the blank telephone calls, the 18obscene messages and so on. I would give only one 19example, my Lord, of the kind hatred -- well, two 20examples: one when I was assaulted in the Book Exhibition 21in Chicago -- in Los Angeles which I attended with my 22publishing imprint a few weeks ago when a member of the 23Jewish community -- a very notorious member of the Jewish 24community; one of the most extreme members in the United 25States with a long criminal record -- came up to the stand 26and screamed that he was going to come back and kill me,

. P-216

1 "You're a Holocaust denier" he screamed as he was led 2away by the police, using the phrase coined by the Second 3Defendant. 4 The second one would make more sense to your 5Lordship if you are aware of who Philip Bullard is. 6Philip Bullard was the head of the Nazi Extermination 7Programme for the mentally and physically disabled, the 8Euthanasia Programme 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, I know 10A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I had the great misfortune in September to lose 11my eldest daughter. After we buried her, I received a 12phone call from the undertakers that another wreath had 13come. When the wreath was delivered late that afternoon, 14it was a very expensive and elaborate wreath of white 15roses and lilies -- far more expensive than we could have 16afforded -- with a card attached to it saying, "Truly a 17merciful death", "It was truly a merciful death", signed 18"Philip Bullard and friends". I should mention that my 19daughter was disabled in all those respects. She was 20legless and she had been brain damaged for 18 years. 21 I submit that this is the kind of hatred that 22this book has subjected me to -- something intolerable, 23something unspeakable, and which I would wish no other 24person to be subjected to 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you

. P-217

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is there anything you wish to add 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Not to that, my Lord, no, and in any other respect I think 3that you have drawn the essentials out of my admirably, as 4was only to be expected 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, you will have the opportunity, obviously, to amplify 6your case after cross-examination, if you wish to. Now, 7I do not know whether we need to clear the decks before 8you cross-examine so that Mr Irving has the documents that 9you mentioned earlier on, Mr Rampton 10MR RAMPTON: I do not know how best to do it. I have to say 11(and I will say it again; I sort of hinted at it 12yesterday) this is the most ghastly inconvenient and 13uncomfortable court I have ever been in. That is nobody's 14fault. I can hardly stand up. I cannot get at my 15documents 16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wish I thought I could do something about 17it 18MR RAMPTON: I say that as a preliminary. The witness is miles 19away from the files that he needs. I can hardly see him 20because of this pillar and my learned junior cannot see 21him 22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Otherwise you are pretty happy! 23MR RAMPTON: Except for the feeling that I am being boiled 24alive 25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I have tried to do something about. The 26air conditioning was supposed to be on. I do not know

. P-218

1whether it actually was over the midday adjournment -- it 2was. I just do not see that we can solve any of these 3problems 4MR RAMPTON: Perhaps the authorities at least might pretend 5that it was mid summer instead of Siberia, we might be a 6little bit more comfortable 7 Cross-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, to be serious (and I am sorry to be a little 9bit facetious) Mr Irving will need some files 10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think it is best to do that first 11before you start 12MR RAMPTON: Yes, I agree. D2(i) and (ii), a copy of his 13opening --- 14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you prefer to have your own copies 15A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord, they are not marked up 16MR RAMPTON: Those are the first two transcript files. 17Eventually, but perhaps not now, and Mr Irving's own 18writing, his books. Those are the two, just (i) and (ii) 19are the only ones that are needed and a copy of the 20opening to start with. 21 (To the witness): Mr Irving, there is an 22elegiac story that you told us just now -- I do not mean 23that sarcastically at all; it is perfectly true it is -- 24you blame that appalling note on the wreath on Deborah 25Lipstadt's book, is that right 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I think I was quite careful to say that it is difficult to

. P-219

1quantify and difficult to be precise, but one thing leads 2to another which thereupon leads to another and in that 3respect the book has created and generated a climate of 4hatred 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If what the book said about you is true, then it would 6not, perhaps you would agree, be the book's fault but 7yours, would it not 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think any man can ever be expected to receive a 9wreath from hateful people like that and have it said it 10is his own fault 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us take a step back in time (and I promise you, as 12I have before, both publicly and privately, that I am 13going on to Auschwitz this week, to give you time to get 14your head round it). In 1977, when the first edition of 15Hitler's War was published, you accepted the Holocaust in 16all its essential details in its ordinary sense, did you 17not, its generally understood sense 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Would you tell the court what you mean by the --- 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, I will. The systematic mass murder of millions of 20Jews by the Nazi regime during the Second World War 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not accept the word "systematic", but for the rest of 22it, then that is an accurate precis 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Including the continuous, if not systematic, though it is 24difficult to distinguish the two, perhaps, use of 25homicidal gas chambers in institutions like Auschwitz 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Continuous

. P-220

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, over a period of time 2A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not a word that I used 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, not daily on a continuous basis, but for a long period 4of time, something like, I think, 22 months you accepted 5that Auschwitz used homicidal gas chambers to kill very 6large numbers of Jews, did you not 7A.
[Mr Rampton]
I certainly did not say 22 months 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, let us try to get to the point. In your 1977 edition, 9Auschwitz was characterized, I am not quoting, I am 10paraphrasing, as one of the extermination camps, was it 11not 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the 1991 edition, it had become, am I not right, merely 14a slave labour camp? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct -- well, I did not say "merely". I said a 16slave labour camp 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Merely" is my word 18A.
[Mr Irving]
You appreciate one has to be precise what I agree to 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Otherwise it will be used against me later on. You said, 21 "It was merely a slave labour camp" 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You can be certain that I do not conduct litigation in 23that way and that if I did his Lordship would sit on me 24quite hard. So have no fear of silly little Perry Mason 25traps like that 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I am very glad to hear it

. P-221

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Until 1988 you accepted the Holocaust, however it be 2precisely defined (and I am not quibbling about minutia) 3in its generally understood sense, that is to say, a mass 4killing of Jews by the Nazis during World War II, did you 5not 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not use the word "Holocaust" but I did quite 7definitely accept that the Nazis engaged in mass killing 8of Jews during World War II 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you accept that most people in the western world now 10and perhaps all over the world, I know not, when the word 11"Holocaust" is used mean the systematic mass murder of 12millions of Jews by the Nazi regime 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think that they ponder one moment to define what 14they are thinking about. They associate pictures with 15words. When the word "Holocaust" is used, they are 16thinking of people behind barbed ward, they are thinking 17of pits will bulldozers pushing bodies into them. It is 18visual images that are conjured up. They are not using 19legal definitions which can later on be bandied in a libel 20action. I think it is pictures that are conjured up by 21the word 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, we are not looking for legal definitions, Mr Irving. 23We are looking for -- I give you the card straightaway so 24that you can think about it while I ask you more questions 25 -- what people would have understood you to mean when 26later you denied the Holocaust, do you understand? Do you

. P-222

1remember my original question was it might be thought 2eventually that the catastrophe or the misfortune you 3described at the end of your evidence-in-chief had been 4brought on you by what you have said yourself. Do you 5understand that? Do you understand, perhaps put it this 6way, that if you use a word --- 7A.
[Mr Irving]
This is very similar to saying that the catastrophe that 8befell the Jewish people was brought on them by 9themselves, and you can say to each of those sentences, 10each of those points, the answer is yes 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not think --- 12A.
[Mr Irving]
But between each of those alphas and omegas there are very 13many intervening stages which you are leaving out 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That may be so. I do not think you are perhaps quite 15answering my question 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I thought that was a very comprehensive one, sir 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us go back to your opening yesterday. You made noisy 18complaint, if I may call it that, about being branded a 19"Holocaust denier", did you not 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, yes, yes 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You finished up by calling it a verbal Yellow Star 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Among my remarks I called it a verbal Yellow Star. I did 23not finish up by calling it that 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. "A poison to which there is virtually no antedote, 25less lethal than a hypodermic with nerve gas jabbed in the 26neck but deadly all the same. For the chosen victim, it

. P-223

1is like being called a wife beater or a paedophile. It is 2enough for the label to be attached for the attachee to 3find himself designated as a pariah, an outcast from 4normal society. It is a verbal Yellow Star". What did 5you mean by "it" 6A.
[Mr Irving]
The phrase "Holocaust denier" 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Exactly. Now, then I would like you to look at some of 8the things that you have said publicly or, at any rate, 9semi-publicly. You have those two files there, the ones 10with the pink spines on them. Can we start, please, with 11the one which is, if I can find it, it is D2(i). Can you 12please turn to tab 9 which is the transcript of a speech 13you made at the Travelodge at the Airport Inn in Calgary, 14Alberta, on 29th September 1991. I myself quoted some 15part of this, I think, yesterday in opening for the 16Defendants. Can you please turn to page 4? If you think 17I am reading anything out of context, you must say so 18because then I will go back and start again 19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So take your time if you need it, Mr Irving 20A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I read the whole of this speech in the small 21hours of this morning in view of the fact that --- 22MR RAMPTON: Then can I start, please, halfway down the page, 23five lines above the paragraph break 24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, I missed the page 25MR RAMPTON: Page 4, my Lord. There is a sentence which begins 26with the last word on the line "For", after the words "in

. P-224

1one or two dramatic points". Do you have it 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I have that 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"For example, until 1988, I believed that there had been, 4until 1988, I believed that three had been something like 5a Holocaust. I believed that millions of people had been 6killed in factories of death. I believed in the gas 7chamber. I believed in all the paraphernalia of the 8modern Holocaust". Now, what was "all the paraphernalia 9of the modern Holocaust" that you believed in up to 1988 10A.
[Mr Irving]
The words that I had set out in the previous four lines, 11the factories of death 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 13A.
[Mr Irving]
The gas chambers 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Like everybody else in this room, I believed in them up to 16that point 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then comes this: "But 1988, when I came to Canada and 18gave evidence in the trial of Ernst Zundel as an 19historian, I met there people who knew differently and 20could prove to me that the story was just a legend" 21A.
[Mr Irving]
"That that story was just a legend" 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Quite right, thank you, "that that story", that is to say 23the Holocaust story in which you previously believed, "was 24just a legend. I changed my mind I've now revised the 25Hitler book so that all references to Auschwitz and the 26gas chamber and all the factories of death", so that would

. P-225

1include Sobibor, Treblinka --- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, you have inserted some words there. After, 3where you read out "to prove that that story was just a 4legend", you then verbally inserted the words "in other 5words, the story of the Holocaust" 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Or something like that, and that is not in there 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Fair enough 9A.
[Mr Irving]
That story was referring to the paraphernalia 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You corrected my reading quite rightly, I said "the 11story", you said "that story". What does that mean in 12that context 13A.
[Mr Irving]
The paraphernalia, the equipment, the factories of death 14and the gas chambers 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, and the killing of millions of people 16A.
[Mr Irving]
No 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Really 18A.
[Mr Irving]
We have repeatedly made quite plain that the Nazis killed 19large numbers of people 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I believed millions of people had been killed in 21factories of death" 22A.
[Mr Irving]
You see, this is why you said "the story" instead of "that 23story". You were trying to sweep up the whole of that 24sentence, including the millions of people, when it is 25quite plain that I am talking about the latter part of the 26sentence which is the paraphernalia

. P-226

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, we will get nowhere if we argue about trivia of 2that kind. What you had believed in --- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not trivia, Mr Rampton, with respect, because a few 4days down the line you will read back to me the transcript 5and say, "But you agreed on January 12th that this was 6what you were referring to", and that is why I am going to 7be sticking on each one of these points, Mr Rampton 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us get it straight. The story that you had believed 9in until 1988 was, amongst other things, that millions of 10people had been killed in factories of death by the use of 11gas chambers. I am paraphrasing the penultimate and the 12propenultimate lines of the previous --- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, but that is not an accurate paraphrase. You 14just said, "I believed that millions of people had been 15killed in the gas chambers" and that is exactly what that 16sentence does not say. It says: "I believed that 17millions of people had been killed in factories of death. 18I believed in the gas chamber". Can you not see the 19difference between those two sentences 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am afraid I cannot. You tell me the difference 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I believed that millions of people have been killed 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In factories of death 23A.
[Mr Irving]
In factories of death. I believed in the gas chambers 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Right, now, will you please, just so that we can 25clear up this, I will not use the word, just this little 26dispute, please keep your finger where you are and turn to

. P-227

1tab 11 which is something you said apparently on the 2unedited transcripts of an interview on 15th and 28th 3November for the "This Week" programme and I think Irving 4and Leuchter at the Chelsea Town Hall was a press 5conference you gave announcing your publication of the 6Leuchter Report, am I right 7A.
[Mr Irving]
It was a lecture that we organized at the Chelsea Town 8Hall, yes 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can you turn to page 2, please, of this transcript 10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, Mr Rampton. This contains two 11separate things, this tab, does it? One, the press 12conference and the other a television interview 13MR RAMPTON: It does 14A.
[Mr Irving]
What I am I supposed to be looking at 15MR RAMPTON: Page 2 of the transcript which is at tab 11, 16please 17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is the press conference 18MR RAMPTON: This is the press conference and there is a 19passage time at 0014.25 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I only have tape 191 in this book 21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what you are meant to be looking at 22MR RAMPTON: Page 191 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Tape 191 24MR RAMPTON: Tape 191. Please turn to the second page of the 25transcript and look at the last paragraph on the second 26page

. P-228

1A.
[Mr Irving]
1425 right? The time 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, 1425. You told his Lordship this morning that, so 3far as you could tell, these were accurate transcripts of 4what you had said. I will read the sentence and you tell 5me whether you want to --- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Excuse me, you just said that I told his Lordship that 7these were accurate transcripts of what I have said 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So far as you could tell, I think, yes. He asked you that 9question 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I said with reservation, with the reservation that some of 11them have been subjected to editing 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, just let us have a look at this one sentence and 13then you can tell his Lordship whether you think it has 14been edited and in some way crafted to misrepresent what 15you said 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The one sentence, yes 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The one sentence: "The biggest lie of the lot, the blood 18libel on the German people, as I call it", that is you, 19 "is the lie that the Germans had factories of death with 20gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of their 21opponents" 22A.
[Mr Irving]
That is an accurate transcription of what I said 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You did say that 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And did you regard that proposition, that the Germans had 26factories of death with gas chambers, plural, in

. P-229

1which they liquidated millions, plural, of their 2opponents, at this date in November 1991 as a lie 3A.
[Mr Irving]
A big lie, yes 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
A big lie 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is that proposition, is it not, Mr Irving, which most 7people regard as representing not in any accurate or 8meticulous, historical sense, but generally understood as 9the Holocaust 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree with that. I have made quite plain that in my 11mind most people when they think of the Holocaust think of 12everything they are shown on television. Mostly nowadays 13it is people being made to walk to the edge of a pit and 14being bumped off by soldiers holding rifles. That is the 15visual image that people now have 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. So that does not represent the Holocaust, millions 17of people being killed in gas chambers in factories of 18death 19A.
[Mr Irving]
It represents a part of the Holocaust story 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So will you please go up the page two paragraphs to the 21words "timed at 1213", and explain what you meant by what 22you here said? "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler 23biography here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography that we 24have only just published, in fact, it literally arrived 25off the printing process today, you will not find the 26Holocaust mentioned in one line, not even a footnote. Why

. P-230

1should we? If something didn't happen, then you don't 2even dignify it with a footnote" 3A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct. The word "The Holocaust" you will not 4find in that book 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What was the Holocaust that did not happen that you meant 6to signify by those words 7A.
[Mr Irving]
The way I then I specify it two paragraphs later which is 8the millions being killed in the gas chambers. This makes 9it quite plain it is all part of the same story 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So what it comes to is that the Holocaust, your own 11words --- 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- has been denied by you, does it not 14A.
[Mr Irving]
No. The Holocaust as defined here by me later on, the 15description of people being killed in factories of death. 16This is the description here which I say you will not find 17in the book and you will not find the word "Holocaust" in 18the book which you will not, because I think it is very 19confusing to use words like that. I mean, this is where 20the confusion has come from, that instead of you asking me 21a question about the shootings and a question about the 22gassings, you are asking a question about a vague concept 23called "the Holocaust" knowing that you will get me one 24way or you will get the other, rather like Mortimer's 25Fork. I think it would be more forensic if you were to 26ask specifically about what you mean rather than ask about

. P-231

1vague concepts 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you for your advice about how to conduct my case in 3court, Mr Irving. I am grateful for that. What do you 4think was the Holocaust about which Professor Lipstadt 5wrote in her book 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Which Holocaust are we talking about 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am --- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
The broad definition 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- asking you to answer my question, what is it in her 10book that you object to in the words "Holocaust denier" 11A.
[Mr Irving]
The word "denier" that is attached to it. That is what I 12object to it 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You did not deny the Holocaust in that passage --- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I denied the gas chambers. I denied that the Germans 15killed millions in gas chambers and we are going to have a 16great deal of interest when we get to that phase of this 17trial 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How many people do you think -- I mean innocent people, 19I am not talking about bombing raids, Mr Irving, I mean 20innocent Jewish people do you think the Germans killed 21deliberately 22A.
[Mr Irving]
You mean like Anne Frank 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not mind whether they are like Anne Frank or not. 24How many innocent Jewish people --- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I mean, she is a typical example and a very useful 26example to take because everybody has heard of Anne

. P-232

1Frank. She was innocent. I have daughters of my own and 2if what happened to her happened to one of my daughters, I 3would be extremely angry 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, I see, so Mr or Mrs Frank might not have been 5innocent, is that what you are trying to say 6A.
[Mr Irving]
But I asked you about Anne Frank; I did not ask about her 7parents 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am sorry, Mr Irving. The procedure in this court is 9that you do not ask questions, I do. I asked you how 10many --- 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not ask a question. I just said, I mean, shall we 12talk about Anne Frank 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I do not want to talk about Anne Frank 14A.
[Mr Irving]
You want to talk about nameless, unspecified Jews so that 15later on we can say, "Well, I was not meaning those ones, 16I meant those ones"? The reason you do not want to talk 17about Anne Frank, of course, is because she is a Jew who 18died in the Holocaust and yet she was not murdered, unless 19you take the broadest possible definition of murder 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, this is becoming somewhat comical. We will get 21to Anne Frank along down the road, I assure you. She is 22part of Professor Evans' report, apart from anything else, 23for a completely different purpose. 24 I said "deliberately killed". How many innocent 25Jewish people do you say that the Nazis deliberately 26killed during the course of World War II. That was my

. P-233

1question 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Now, you heard me say in my opening statement, Mr Rampton, 3that I am not an expert on the Holocaust. What I would 4now say would be a figure without any value whatsoever. 5It would be just an assessment off the top of my head. 6I can say what did not happen because you can apply 7certain logistical principles, but I cannot say what did 8happen. It would be a waste of this court's time for me 9to make an assessment 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us break down your Holocaust denial then, so far as 11you will accept that you have made it. You dispute the 12word "millions" 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I dispute the word "millions" 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 15A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I do not think I have disputed the word "millions" 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So "millions" is only wrong so far as the gas chambers are 17concerned, is that right 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So there are no gas chambers, I think we know that, do we 20not 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, if I may, I will not venture a question, but 22I will make a statement. A million people weigh 100,000 23tonnes. We are talking of a major logistical problem 24here 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are not -- I think, Mr Irving, we are at 26cross-purposes. I am trying to understand what it is that

. P-234

1you deny, not your reasons for denying it. That will come 2much later on 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I am denying that any kind of multiples of millions of 4people were killed in the gas chambers at Birkenhau 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Articles then of -- no, that is not what you have said 6here 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I am very being very specific which makes it much easier 8to nail me down 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, "factories of death" is plural 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, there were several factories of death, allegedly, at 11Birkenhau, the crematoria 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What you do you say about Sobibor, Treblinka, Belsac and 13Chelmo 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Nothing at all. I am not an expert 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you deny that they were killed in gas chambers in those 16places 17A.
[Mr Irving]
You did not hear what I said, Mr Rampton. I am not an 18expert 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have no opinion about that at all 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Except what I have read from other people. If other 21people come and tell me that, for example, there is no 22trace of any mass graves at Treblinka even now, then 23I begin to get suspicious about the story 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let me understand it, Mr Irving. By "factories of death" 25in this sentence on page 2 of tab 11, you had no intention 26of including in that phrase "factories of death" the

. P-235

1installations, whatever they were, at Belsac, Treblinka, 2Sobibor or Chelma, is that right 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, you are asking me a question about a verbal 4statement I made nine years ago and, if you wish, I will 5look to see what the rest of the statement is and I will 6tell you which parts of the universe I was talking about. 7But --- 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your answer just now -- it may have been too quick an 9answer; it was not, perhaps, your best answer -- was, "Oh, 10when I said 'factories of death' here, there were 11factories of death at Birkenhau" 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I presumed that as we are still talking about the 13Auschwitz phase of the cross-examination, you are talking 14about Auschwitz and Birkenhau 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am talking about what I call your Holocaust denier 16here you write a sentence or you speak a sentence, 17presumably written out before: "The biggest lie of the lot 18is the lie that the Germans had factories", plural, and 19I said that when I read it to you first time, "of death 20with gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of 21their opponents" 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us get back to the present. Which of those elements 24in that statement "factories", plural, "of death with gas 25chambers", plural, "in which they liquidated millions", 26plural, "of their opponents", which of those elements do

. P-236

1you still deny 2A.
[Mr Irving]
The millions in gas chambers 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Because, among other reasons, which we will come to later 5on in this trial, the logistical problems for a start 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But you do deny it 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I deny -- I use that word, it might be more proper to use 8the word "contest" or "question", but certainly for your 9purposes I will use the word "deny", that it was possible 10to liquidate millions of people in the gas chambers that 11had been presented us by historians so far 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I follow that. Are you retreating from your earlier 13answer that your use of the words "factories", plural, "of 14death" was confined to Birkenhau 15A.
[Mr Irving]
What, in this particular speech 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you wish me to read the speech so that I can answer 18that question 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no. I would rather you gave me an answer now; if you 20want to change it tomorrow, by all means do so. That is 21perfectly legitimate 22A.
[Mr Irving]
No, unless the Judge so orders, I think it would be 23improper for me to answer from memory about the content of 24a speech I made nine years ago 25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is probably a fair point. It 26does mean that time is going to have to be taken up with

. P-237

1it, and I am concerned we do not spend too long on it, but 2glance through. I do not think it will take that long 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I am anxious to be responsive, my Lord, but I do not want 4to --- 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I think that is fair, as I already said. Just glance 6through and see whether you can get any help one way or 7the other from the rest of it 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Whereabouts was it 9MR RAMPTON: It is on page 2, tab 11 10A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, with respect, I do not see why I should be 11required to amplify a statement that I made nine years ago 12in any respect whatsoever or I should be required to add 13geographical locations on which I did not specify at the 14time 15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You were not, with respect, being asked 16that. When you use that phrase "factories of death" --- 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I can certainly be helpful here and say that I think 18I am prepared to deny the possibility that the Nazis 19liquidated millions of people in gas chambers at any of 20their locations during the Third Reich. 21MR RAMPTON: That is very helpful 22A.
[Mr Irving]
But do not then start just taking elements of that 23sentence saying, "Oh, but you said this, the gas chambers" 24or "You said the millions" or "You said anywhere". The 25whole sentence in its totality is correct, and that is 26what I am testifying to

. P-238

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you accept that the Nazis killed, by one means or 2another, and I am not talking about hard labour or 3exposing people to typhus, shot, murdered, gassed, kicked 4to death millions of Jews during World War II or not 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, whether it was of the order of millions or not, 8I would hesitate to specify, but I would say it was 9certainly more than one million, certainly less than four 10million. But that is not a very useful answer to you, the 11limitation I put on that. I do not want you to say, "You 12said millions, therefore, it is more than two million", 13for example. I do not want you to .. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So tell me what it was then that was the Holocaust that 15you removed from the 1991 edition and announced to the 16world that you had done so 17A.
[Mr Irving]
The word "Holocaust" has gone 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, but why 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Because I find the word "Holocaust" misleading, offensive 20and unhelpful 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why 22A.
[Mr Irving]
For precisely the reasons that I said 10 minutes ago, that 23it is too vague, it is imprecise, it is unscientific and 24it should be avoided like the plague, because the word 25"Holocaust" could be understood to mean one thing when 26somebody is referring to it meaning something else. I try

. P-239

1to avoid words like that. 2 I shall be calling -- I shall be asking one of 3my experts on precisely this matter who is an expert on 4the use of the word "Holocaust". He also takes the 5strongest exception to it 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So you removed it because you found it imprecise for one 7reason 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, as a part of the general tidying up process -- when 9you take a book after 10 years and you revise it and you 10work over it with a red pencil, you do a lot of tidying up 11and tightening up, and we did that with the new edition. 12We cut a lot of material out anyway because the book was 13the one-third too long and we wanted to bring a new 14material that we had obtained, the diaries of Hitler's 15doctor and Goring, and so on. So there was a lot of 16editorial work that went on 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I want to take it slowly because it may be important in 18the end. You removed it because it was imprecise, but you 19accept, you now tell me, that the Germans deliberately 20murdered perhaps something between one and two million 21Jews during the course of the War 22A.
[Mr Irving]
A criminally large number of Jews, yes 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where, in your opinion, did this happen, broadly speaking 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, we could take it sector by sector, but I am not sure 25if it is a meaningful exercise. If I am a Jew and I take 26it from Amsterdam and I am living a peaceful life and I

. P-240

1find myself thrown into a stinking concentration camp 2where I die of disease, I considered myself to have been 3murdered 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I excluded them, as you know perfectly well. I talked 5about shooting, gassing, hanging, kicking, what you like, 6but I excluded the people who died of disease or overwork 7or starvation 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. On the Eastern front, particularly in the 9Baltic States, particularly in the Ukraine, I would 10estimate that up to one million Jews were murdered, using 11that word in a way that is completely incontrovertible. 12They were stood on the edge of pits and shot into the 13pits, clubbed to death 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Just so that we get it straight: in the second edition of 15"Hitler's War" -- start at the beginning. In the first 16edition you accepted that Auschwitz was an extermination 17centre, did you not 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, a lazy acceptance which I now regret 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is as may be. By the time of the second edition you 20had recanted that acceptance, had you not 21A.
[Mr Irving]
That Auschwitz was an extermination centre, a dedicated 22extermination centre 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You said, for example, I am paraphrasing, perhaps you will 26accept it, that the Hungarian Jews were sent to Auschwitz

. P-241

1for slave labour 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Instead of purposefully to be killed 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Definitely 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What do you say went on -- perhaps I will ask you this 6first. Do you accept that there were camps, and we will 7take them one by one, Chelmo 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Belzec 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Belzec I am not certain of 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Treblinka 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Treblinka I am becoming uncertain about 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sobibor 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Sobibor I know nothing of 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Chelmo you accept 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The other two, second two you are uncertain about 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What happened at Chelmo 20A.
[Mr Irving]
In 1940 they established a killing centre. It was in a 21handy part of Europe. Hitler had ordered liquidation in 22the Polish campaign and afterwards the liquidation of all 23the Polish intellectuals and clergy and intelligentsia and 24the Jews who were liable to occupy leading positions, and 25a lot of them found themselves shipped off to Chelmo where 26they were dispatched

. P-242

1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But not by gas 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Not to the best of my knowledge, my Lord, no, but I say 3this, and I hesitate to say this, as a non-expert on the 4Holocaust, this book was not written as a history of the 5Holocaust. This was book was written as a biography of 6Hitler and it would have been neither here nor there how 7his victims were disposed of 8MR RAMPTON: Let us take the other three camps together. You 9would not accept that they were purpose built 10extermination centres either 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Not on the basis of the evidence I have seen so far 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It follows, does it not, that you do not accept that 13people who were killed there were killed by the use of 14purpose designed gas chambers 15A.
[Mr Irving]
At which camps are you talking about, Treblinka 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
To the three East Polish ones 17A.
[Mr Irving]
There is a lot of debate each way which, in my mind, is 18unresolved and I have no particular interest in resolving 19it because, I repeat for the nth time, I am not a 20Holocaust scholar, and taking the Treblinka Miediner camp 21you have the problem there that they cannot make up their 22mind what kind of gas was used to kill the victims, was it 23Zyklone, was it diesel engine exhaust fumes, was it petrol 24engine exhaust fumes, when that kind of uncertainty occurs 25in the testimony, frankly I tend to turn my back on the 26entire story and write something that is safe rather than

. P-243

1something that is liable to dispute 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, can I ask this question. 3I thought, Mr Irving, when you were giving your 4evidence-in-chief, I think it was in response to a 5question from, you said you accepted that gassing had 6occurred 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But to the limited sent that it had been carried out on an 9experimental basis 10A.
[Mr Irving]
By experimental --- 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let me finish the question. I had understood that to be a 12reference to the gas vans being brought after the 13termination of euthanasia programme. Am I wrong? Is it 14wider than that 15A.
[Mr Irving]
By "experimental" I do not mean that men stood around in 16white coats with clip boards and stopwatches. It as just 17local SS commanders who had been given the job of 18disposing of these people and were looking for other ways 19of doing it. Certainly the gas vans were used, because in 20Adolf Eichmann's papers which I obtained in Argentina he 21describes having witnessed one such killing, and there are 22documents which satisfy me, which may be of great 23disinterest to the Defendants but they satisfy me that 24they are authentic that such killing trucks did exist, 25unless there are enormous coincidences in the use of 26language and words. The gas chambers story is

. P-244

1sufficiently difficult to analyse, because on the one hand 2you have apparently consistent testimony of people who 3should have known, like the commandants and their 4deputies, testifying to the fact that these killings were 5carried out in gas chambers, and on the other hand you 6have the logistical and agricultural impossibilities which 7cannot be overlooked. I am sure that we will hear a lot 8more about them later on in the trial 9MR RAMPTON: Yes, perhaps. Then let us return finally to page 102 of tab 11 of this file. I hope you still have it open, 11have you 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 2, tab 11, yes 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. In the second paragraph timed at 12.13 the last 14sentence reads: 15 "If something didn't happen then you don't even 16dignify it with a footnote". 17 The "it" you are referring to there is the 18Holocaust whatever that may mean. Is that right 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it is the gas chamber Holocaust 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. I am not trying to be unfair, but according to the 21internal syntax of that statement the "it" is the 22Holocaust, is it not 23A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the gas chamber Holocaust and I am sure his Lordship 24is well aware of the fact this is a speech delivered under 25very strained circumstances without a script. So one does 26not put every word on the gold balance, as the Germans

. P-245

1say. The mere fact it means the gas chamber Holocaust is 2evident from the fact that if you look at the book I am 3talking about, Hitler's War, there is any amount of 4reference to the rest of the Holocaust story, namely the 5shootings on the Eastern Front which are accepted in full 6degree 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I said I was not trying to be unfair. I wanted to take it 8in stages 9A.
[Mr Irving]
You are being very fair and you are being very patient 10with me, but I have to be very careful with my responses 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the four walls of that little paragraph the "it" that 12did not happen is the Holocaust, grammatically speaking, 13is it not 14A.
[Mr Irving]
We keep coming back to the same question 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Just say yes or no. It is very easy. I am not 16trying to trick you. It is, is it not? It is not a 17difficult question 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Which "it" are we talking about 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the last line: "If something didn't happen you don't 20even dignify it with a footnote". That follows, does it 21not, from the earlier part --- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
The something that did not happen is it 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The something that did not happen is the Holocaust if you 24look at the previous line 25A.
[Mr Irving]
No, the clause, "if something didn't happen", that is the 26"it"

. P-246

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All right, we will read the whole thing. If you read --- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
It is still going to say the same no matter how often you 3read it 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"You won't find the Holocaust mentioned in one line, not 5even a footnote. Why should we? If something didn't 6happen then you don't even dignify it with a footnote." 7The something that did not happen is the Holocaust in this 8sentence, is it not 9A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the clause if something did not happen. Let me 10explain to you, by this time I had encountered a very fine 11American editor Tom Condon, who was my American editor, 12American publishers have people who have editors who teach 13you how to write, and this particular editor said: 14"Mr Irving, don't waste time and ink telling your readers 15what has not happened." He said: "Don't say he didn't 16like dogs but he did like cats. You just write 'he did 17like cats'". This is what I am getting at there. You do 18not waste ink 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I follow that entirely, but let us look at the substance 20of the thing. The something that did not happen is the 21Holocaust, is it not, in this sentence 22A.
[Mr Irving]
The gas chamber Holocaust, yes 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no, in the English, the something that did not happen 24is the Holocaust 25A.
[Mr Irving]
The whole of this speech is about the gas chamber, the 26whole of this part of the speech. You will notice the

. P-247

1tape has previously jumped so we have no idea what has 2been cut out or what has been accidently omitted 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I said I am said trying to be fair 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I must insist on fairness here, because I have stipulated 5that I will accept these transcripts and allow you to make 6great horseplay with them, except where they have been 7edited, and that is a paragraph or a sentence has that has 8been edited. It says specifically "tape jumps" which 9means it has been switched on and switched off. You are 10getting the second half of a sentence 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I wish you would not be so nervous of me, Mr Irving. 12I said I am trying to be fair. Now look down at the other 13paragraph we looked at earlier. I am now going to put 14some words into your mouth. You have said in the earlier 15paragraph that the Holocaust did not happen. That is as 16plain as a pikestaff to anybody who can read English. Now 17we see, do we not, as you have been trying to tell us, 18what you mean by the Holocaust: 19 "The biggest lie of the lot is the lie that 20Germans had factories of death with gas chambers in which 21they liquidated millions of their opponents." 22A.
[Mr Irving]
My I intern that differently? I am sorry it is a 23question. I will intern that differently. The biggest 24lie of the lot is that the Germans had factories of death 25with gas chambers in which they killed millions of people 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Liquidated, yes

. P-248

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you notice the difference there 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You can read it either, can you not 3A.
[Mr Irving]
You read it your way, Mr Rampton 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. What you are saying --- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
And we at this end of the wicket will read it our way 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What you say is the biggest lie is the assertion that 7there were gas chambers. That is what you say you meant 8by that 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, in which millions were killed. This is what I asked 10you not to do, not just to take individual phrases out of 11a sentence and say, look at this bit and look at that. 12You have to judge the whole 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not think that is very fair. I read the whole 14sentence 15A.
[Mr Irving]
No, you did not. You said there were gas chambers, the 16biggest lie is that they were gas chambers, and I am 17saying that, no, what I say is the biggest lie is that 18there were gas chambers in which millions were killed 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I thought, Mr Irving, these were elements in the lie, 20factories of death, gas chambers and millions 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Only when taken together 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right 23A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, am I labouring these points too much 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, you are not at all. You deny that there were 25factories of death with gas chambers in which were 26liquidated millions of Jews. I have rephrased it so that

. P-249

1it is absolutely crystal clear 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I thought I did not recognize it 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So that it is absolutely crystal clear, it has not an 4ambiguity of what you wrote. I want to get your evidence 5clear 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Let me explain what underlies this sentence. Because it 7is logistically impossible to kill millions of people in 8the buildings that have been portrayed to us as factories 9of death, therefore they cannot have been, and that is the 10big lie, if you try to cut that particular sentence up any 11particular way then it becomes (A) something I did not say 12and (B) worthless for the purposes of this court 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you sorely tempt me to proceed to Auschwitz 14straightaway, but I will resist it 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I am looking forward to Auschwitz 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you accept that one version of the Holocaust which 17is generally understood, accepted and perceived --- 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Will you avoid using the passive voice so we know 19precisely who is generally accepting, understanding and 20perceiving 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Call it the public at large, the audiences to whom you 22speak 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Have you stood in Oxford Street with a clip board asking 24them, the public at large 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You will not commit yourself to a generally understood 26sense of the Holocaust then

. P-250

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know what the generally sense of the Holocaust 2is. I have given my version of it. You are giving the 3court your version of it 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Will you accept, Mr Irving, and if you will not say no, it 5matters not, will you accept that one element in the 6public perception of the Holocaust is the killing of 7millions of Jews in gas chambers constructed by the Nazis 8in various parts of Europe 9A.
[Mr Irving]
That I accept 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You will 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. And that you deny 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Why did you not ask that question right at the beginning 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I wanted to know what you meant 15A.
[Mr Irving]
It is one element 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, please 17A.
[Mr Irving]
It is one element, as you say 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you not accept that it was the major element in the 19public perception of what the Holocaust was about 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Now you are saying something different 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am asking you a further question 22A.
[Mr Irving]
You have changed from one element to a major element 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, please, I have asked you about one element. 24You have accepted that is an element. I now ask you 25whether you do not also accept that it is the major 26element

. P-251

1A.
[Mr Irving]
In what 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the public perception of the words "the Holocaust" 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. You do not know 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I have not take any statistical evaluations of what people 6think in Oxford Street 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You deny, I think we are clear on this now, that the 8Germans killed millions of Jews in gas chambers in 9purpose-built establishments 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Will you repeat that sentence? You deny that Germans 11killed 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You deny that the Nazis, do not let us talk about Germans, 13let us talk about Nazis, that the Nazis killed millions of 14Jews in gas chambers in purpose-built establishments 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry to take so long to answer, but I have to see 18exactly what it is you are asking. Purpose-built 19establishments, millions of Nazis in gas chambers, yes 20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is the reason really why you deny that 21because you do not accept there were any such 22purpose-built factories 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the word "purpose-built" made my answer much easier, 24my Lord. You will understand why I say that when we turn 25to the architectural drawings and we bring in the evidence 26that I have

. P-252

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And Liechter 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Liechter I think is something that I am not going to rely 3on at all. As I said in my introduction on the Liechter 4report, the Liechter report is flawed. We now have very 5much better expertise 6MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, you do tempt me very sorely. When 7Liechter first swam into your view, you had no expertise 8about Auschwitz or about gassing or extermination or 9anything like that, did you 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not need it. That was not what his report was based 11on 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Mr Irving, when Liechter swam into view you had not 13studied this question at all, had you 14A.
[Mr Irving]
No 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I think you said as much 16A.
[Mr Irving]
No 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yet I am right, am I not, that you announced Mr Liechter 18as having been, as it were, the corner stone of your 19conversion, if I may mix my metaphors 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Not Mr Liechter, but the laboratory analyses attached to 21his report. I am not sure whether I announced it in that 22way, but certainly that was the corner stone 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will just read from the same -- there are many other 24references but we need not look them all up. Page 6 of 25the same transcript. We will start, if we may, at the 26large paragraph in the middle of the page, timed at 30.28

. P-253

1because again I do not want to be accused of taking 2anything out of context. 3 "Thank you Professor Faurisson for that 4wonderful erudite discursion on the argument on the 5controversy in which we are so emotionally and deeply 6embroiled. It is fascinating to see how an academic, a 7Professor, can enlarge upon what after all is just a tiny 8detail of history, as it now turns out. He can hold it 9under a microscope and see details, he can see details on 10those details and further details on those details. If 11I can just dot the i's and cross the t's to some of those 12details of details of details, he mentioned that after 13Fred Liechter did his truly epoch making investigation of 14the gas chambers at our Auschwitz, the forensic laboratory 15tests which yielded the extraordinary result which 16converted me" --- 17A.
[Mr Irving]
There you have it 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
" ... made me into a hardcore disbeliever." 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is right, is it not 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So it was the Liechter report and that aspect of the 23Liechter report which summarised or discussed the 24laboratory findings that converted you into a hardcore 25disbeliever 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I specifically say there the laboratory forensic tests

. P-254

1Can we analyse what I am disbelieving there 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. It is much better we do not go down that road 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I thought so 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because we might find ourselves discussing Auschwitz now 5which might not suit your book. Do you agree 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, you said it did not suit your book in the 7interval. You were very willing to start with Auschwitz 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, we are not dealing with Auschwitz 9now. We are dealing really, are we not, with Holocaust 10denier 11MR RAMPTON: Yes 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have touched upon Mr Liechter. We are going to grapple 14with him much more extensively next week. We have touched 15upon Mr Liechter and it has led you to this conclusion 16that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz, is it not? 17I use the historic present. It was Mr Liechter's report 18and the bit about the laboratory tests which converted you 19into disbelief that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, 20is that right 21A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that is correct. As a consequence of that, you have 23come to believe, perhaps it was a matter of protest, 24perhaps not, I do not know, that the Nazis did not use gas 25chambers for the extermination of Jews let alone millions 26of Jews

. P-255

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I have become very sceptical of that element of the 2story 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you have publicly expressed your disbelief 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Scepticism, yes 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So if and in so far as that forms a part of people's 6belief about the Holocaust, you are a Holocaust denier 7A.
[Mr Irving]
No 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you not 9A.
[Mr Irving]
No. You do not have to believe in the whole to be a 10believer. How many of us are Christians who do not 11believe in every aspect of the Christian ethos 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All right. I do not think we ought to argue metaphysics, 13Mr Irving 14A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a metaphysics problem you are putting there. You are 15saying: Believe the whole thing or you are a denier and 16you are ruined. You will not eat lunch in this town 17again. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I did not. I said in so far as that forms a part of 19people's belief about the Holocaust, you deny that part, 20put it like that 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, are you leading evidence on people --- 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am asking you --- 23A.
[Mr Irving]
--- people's belief 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am asking you a question. If it should be thought that 25it forms a part of common belief about the nature of the 26Holocaust that large numbers of Jews were systematically

. P-256

1gassed in purpose-built gas chambers, you are a Holocaust 2denier, are you not 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know this does form a large part of people's 4beliefs and I do not think you are allowed to lead 5evidence on people's beliefs in an effort to back it up 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, only one last little bit about that. Whatever 7methods were used, and you deny the use of gas chambers, 8whatever methods were used to kill large numbers of Jews, 9whether they are 1, 2 or 3 or 6 million, you say it was 10not systematic, is that right 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Would you elucidate precisely what you mean by 12"systematic"? Something organised and ordered from the 13highest level of the Third Reich or something ordered from 14halfway up the system, or something that was just a system 15within the camp? I think the word "systematic" is a bit 16of a man trap 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You know quite a lot about the shootings in the East after 18Barbarossa in June 1941, do you not 19A.
[Mr Irving]
As I said this morning, they appeared to be chaotic, 20disorganized and arbitrary 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You know that --- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
As that one signal proves that I read out 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You know, do you not, that regularly, indeed frequently, 24reports were sent back in writing from the East, from the 25units in the East, from the Einsatzgruppen and other units 26in the East, enumerating and totalling the numbers of

. P-257

1people shot 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Who were these reports from and to 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They are from the Einsatzgruppen to Heydrich's office in 4Berlin 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, this is true 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where they are, am I not right, distilled into, as it 7were, summary reports, meldung 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Sometimes they were, yes 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And there are a large number of these documents, are there 10not 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. From whom to whom did these reports go 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
From the East to Berlin 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, and the meldung you are talking about made in Berlin, 14were did they go to 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is a matter of speculation. Assume they went to 16Heydrich or his office. We are then, are we not, in the 17top echelons of the Nazi party at this time 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do we need to go any further 20A.
[Mr Irving]
We do not and I can make your life easier, Mr Rampton, by 21saying that Adolf Hitler was quite satisfied, I think, 22with the Einsatzgruppen operations on the Eastern Front in 23so far as they had the character of security operations 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Subsequently of course the security operations were then 26umbrellaed out to include the liquidation of Jews who were

. P-258

1considered to be fair game 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We will come to report No. 51 on 29th December, 26th its 3original date but 29th September 1942 further down the 4line 5A.
[Mr Irving]
That is just one of a kind of course 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, it is 51. It is No. 51. So presumably there were 7another 50 before it 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but the others were about things like the progress 9and development of the rubber plant and things likes that 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It may be so. It gives a figure, does it not 11A.
[Mr Irving]
316,000 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
363,000 plus as a separate category of Jews executed in 13three areas 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I think you ought to look at the whole document rather 15than just take one line out and consider the document a 16bit and the initials that are marked on it 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the figure is right, is it not? That is 19the figure 20A.
[Mr Irving]
This figure is typed on that document, my Lord, that is 21true, yes, and the document is typed in the special large 22faced typewriter which Himmler and Hitler used 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Himmler used that as well 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, on occasion he would use it to write speeches in, 25yes 26MR RAMPTON: And that document is signed by Himmler, is it not

. P-259

1A.
[Mr Irving]
One copy of it is that I have seen 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And it is marked for the Fuhrer, is it not 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a report to the Fuhrer, yes 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Suppose --- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
It would be far more useful if we could have the document 6before the court 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Unfortunately I do not have it here. So we will have to 8come back to it. We will come back to it in detail I am 9afraid. There is no way round it 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I am very familiar with the document of course. I think 11his Lordship should see it 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is why I can ask you about it, so am I, without your 13having it in front of you. Just suppose for the sake of 14argument that that document was shown Adolf Hitler 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why would it have been shown to Adolf Hitler 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I would ask the question the other way round 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, please 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I would say why is that figure buried on page 6 of that 20document 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not. It is on the first page 22A.
[Mr Irving]
That is why we wrote it so I do not blunder into silly 23mistakes like that. I think I am right. You think you are 24right 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not trying to catch you. Under the heading Meldung 26and Fuhrer or whatever it is

. P-260

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, OK, why it is buried on that first page 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Have you got it there 3A.
[Mr Irving]
We have got it. Ah! 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I have not got my copy. We have only got one copy. 5We do not play tricks like that in this court, Mr Irving. 6If we do the judges get very cross with us. There is no 7point to it 8A.
[Mr Irving]
What I shall ask you is, does it have the notation at the 9top: Fuhrer Fordalig 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I did not hear that 11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does it have "shown to the Fuhrer" written on 12the top 13MR RAMPTON: Yes, it does. Well, it has a word which I believe 14means something like "presented" in handwriting. It is 15written by a man called Fife I think 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I know Fife and I know Gruchmann, the two initials on it. 17It has the letters ERL which means taken care of which may 18or may not have been shown to Hitler 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Please, I do not want to come on to the question of fact 20whether the Fuhrer ever saw it. I would just like you to 21have a look at it 22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I be told where it is 23MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am sorry. It is in H3 (i) at tab 3. It 24has a handwritten "6" on the bottom which is a modern 25numeral. Tab 3 page 6. It has a whole load of other 26numbers on it as well

. P-261

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Written on the top it says "forgaleg" which means put 2before. But it does not say whom to. But it does say 3"put before" 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is cut off on my copy 5MR RAMPTON: Yes, I know. I have had it read by a Germanist 6and it does say that 7A.
[Mr Irving]
The initial at the top is Fife and the initial below it is 8Gruchmann, GR 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So the manuscript is "forgaleg", is it 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Do you accept that means since it is addressed to the 12Fuhrer that it was shown to him 13A.
[Mr Irving]
On a high probability, yes, my Lord. I would have 14accepted that as being evidence that it had probably been 15shown to Hitler, but I would also draw attention to two or 16three details, if I may, since we are looking at the 17document now 18MR RAMPTON: I would rather we left it but you can if you want 19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I personally think I would leave it 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not want to upset Mr Rampton by drawing attention to 21inconsistencies 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You will have an opportunity later 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not questioning the authenticity, my Lord, just 24aspects of it. Right 25MR RAMPTON: I do not mind at all, Mr Irving, if that is what 26you would like to

. P-262

1A.
[Mr Irving]
No, you have your own way 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I look at it, I see it describes itself, its subject 3matter --- 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Now you are looking at details and I am not allowed to! 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we will leave it to Mr Rampton. 6I think he can ask you more questions if he wants to 7MR RAMPTON: If you have answers to my questions rather than 8speeches to make by all means give them, but I really do 9prefer to proceed my own way, if I am allowed. It 10concerns reports to the Fuhrer about the campaign against 11the partisans. Is that a roughly right translation 12A.
[Mr Irving]
This is what I was about to point out, that the subject 13line is combatting partisan, partisan warfare 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is report No. 51 and it concerns Souther Russia, the 15Ukraine and Bialystok area, does it not 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is about the outcome of that campaign from 1st 18September until 1st December 1942 19A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct, yes 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The first group, the first category are called van 21Diecknann which are --- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
It is their word for "partisans" 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, not always, sometimes it is partisanan, is it not 24A.
[Mr Irving]
They have various different words for the same thing. But 25Nazi jargon was to call partisan bandits 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. There are some people killed under in fact four

. P-263

1headings, August, September, October and November. So it 2does not actually begin on 1st September; it begins 3earlier. The second category are partisan helpers and 4what are "vanda verdicta" 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Partisan suspects 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Suspects, yes. In 2C it says: First of all, arrested, 7that is subcategory (a). Then it says subcategory (b), 8numbers executed, a total of 14,257. In subcategory (c) 9it says explicitly, does it not, "Jews executed" 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And the total there is 363,211 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What would the Fuhrer think when he saw that. You tell 14us? You are the Hitler historian 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think that my imagined response on behalf of the 16Fuhrer is evidence in this case 17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think that is wrong, if I may say so. 18I thought you might say that, but you are an historian. 19It is your job to make sense of a document, if you can. 20I therefore think it is not only a proper question, it is 21quite a significant question 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Well --- 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
To be asked what you think this would have conveyed to 24Hitler, which is I think what Mr Rampton was asking 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Firstly, I accept the document was in all probability 26shown to Hitler. Secondly, I think in all probability he

. P-264

1paid no attention to it. The reason being the date. This 2is the height of the Stalingrad crisis. Every waking 3moment he is waiting for news that the fourth army that he 4sent to rescue the sixth army, to relieve the sixth army, 5had broken through the ring, the battleship Sharn Horse is 6out on the high seas in the Arctic Circle just about to be 7sunk that same day as it is shown to him. He has an awful 8lot of things on his plate. You asked me to imagine, my 9Lord, the situation and I can imagine the situation that 10the Fuhrer, Heydrich Himmler has thought that this is an 11opportune moment to slip a document into the heap to be 12shown to the Fuhrer which he can use one way or the other 13as time may come later on, either to say, "look how well 14I did, mein Fuhrer", or on the other hand to say, "But 15I told you at the time we had done that." There is a 16reason why I say this because we have another document 17later on called Korherr report with which I am sure the 18Defendants are familiar, where Himmler goes to some 19lengths to camouflage the documents so Hitler cannot see 20what is going on, and references to special treatment and 21so on are actually excised from the document before it is 22shown to Hitler. So taking this in conjunction with other 23documents, but I would attach no evidentiary value to what 24I just said whatsoever, because it is literally 25speculating on the basis of very thin evidence, on the 26basis of the date, on the basis of my knowledge from other

. P-265

1source of what else was going on at that time in Hitler's 2War. It is a mistake to contemplate documents like in 3vacuo 4MR RAMPTON: Oh yes 5A.
[Mr Irving]
At the same time as documents like this are happening, if 6I can put it like that, all sorts of other things are 7happening 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sure, but one, only one, and you see, Mr Irving, we are 9not on this side of the court setting out to prove what 10did happen, we are only interested in the evidence which a 11reputable historian would put into the scales and weigh 12before arrival at a conclusion, one obvious explanation of 13this document, which in fact is generated by the document 14before it in the bundle if you look at it, is it not? The 15original report is dated 26th December 1942 and comes from 16the higher SS and police leader in South Russia, etc., 17does it not 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So somebody has taken the trouble back at Berlin to have 20this typed up in the large Fuhrer type 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Somebody has taken the trouble to put it in front of 23Himmler who has signed it as we see on its fourth page, my 24Lord, that is page 9, and somebody has taken the trouble 25to put it in front of Hitler 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes

. P-266

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why should they do that 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Somebody has sent it to be put in front of Hitler, yes 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you agree that the probability is that he saw it 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Or that it was put in front of him 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why should they do that if they did not think he would 8want to see it 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Because Hitler has personally given orders for the 10security operations on the Eastern Front. Hitler at a 11very early date after the operation Barbarossa began, the 12attack on Russia, issued instructions to Heydrich that he 13wanted to be kept regularly informed on the operations of 14the Einsatzgruppen 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And on 1st August 1941 Mullar, the head of the Gestapo 16told Einsatzgruppen that, did he not, or reminded 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, that is correct. That is the document I am referring 18to 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is the beginning of the system, if I may call it 20that, and this is one of the end results, is it not? That 21is how the system matures 22A.
[Mr Irving]
We are trying to justify the word "systematic" 23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry too much about what Mr Rampton 24may or may not be trying to do 25MR RAMPTON: It is not a joint exercise with you, Mr Irving 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I was in the dark as to what was contentious about this

. P-267

1document, because I have actually used in document in my 2book Hitler's War, my Lord. I have given the data. I 3have given the figures. I have reported it in detail. 4There is no mystery about it. I have not tried to conceal 5it the way that my opponents have concealed the documents 6they do not like 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I am not here representing your opponents 8except in so far as you have sued some people for libel. 9Beyond that I have no role 10A.
[Mr Irving]
You are representing my opponents 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In this case 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What, you mean Professor Lipstadt has suppressed 14documents, is that what you are trying to say 15A.
[Mr Irving]
You said I am not representing your opponent 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am not. You said "in the way that my opponents have 17suppressed documents". I said I do not answer for those 18opponents 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Those opponent you are not representing 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I do not represent them. Here is a document which 21appears to represent a part of a systematic reporting to 22Adolf Hitler about the numbers of people killed by the 23Einsatzgruppen in the East 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I strongly disagree. This document is an orphan. Can you 25produce to me one other document shown to Hitler with 26figures of that magnitude reporting crimes on that scale

. P-268

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Earlier they would have been less. We do not have the 2other 50 or do we 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I am saying that these reports --- 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Have you got --- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
No. What I am saying is that the other reports in the 6Meldung series are not necessarily statistics. They may 7be as I gave one example, a typical thing would be a 8report on a two-man midget torpedo operation against the 9Tirpitz where Himmler's men had caught the British seamen 10involved and had them executed and that would go to Hitler 11as a meldung to the Fuhrer at exactly this time. So what 12I am saying is that this kind of meldung with these kinds 13of statistics to Hitler on an Einsatzgruppen operation is 14an orphan. You cannot produce to me one similar document 15in that series 16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got any of numbers 1 to 50 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I have at home, my Lord, yes 18MR RAMPTON: Do they look like this? I am not saying the 19wording is similar, but do they look like this 20A.
[Mr Irving]
No. This is just something that Himmler sent in because 21he thought it is just as interesting to Hitler midget 22torpedo operations or the rubber plant that he is working 23on 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are know at the end of 1942 with this document 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but you are trying to justify the system, the fact 26that they were systematically put in on the basis of

. P-269

1reports like this and I am saying this is the only such 2report 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is the only one which has survived 4A.
[Mr Irving]
No. There is a complete series 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How many are there in this form with a large Fuhrer type 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I have only seen one such report reporting statistics of 7this kind. All the others are in the large Fuhrer type 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They are 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, the ones about the two-man torpedoes and things like 10that. They make fascinating reading. They are obviously 11of great interest 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you suggest that that report to Hitler of 363,000 13plus Jews executed in those eastern territories by the end 14of 1942 bore no relation to the order that the 15Einsatzgruppen should report to Hitler on the activities, 16on their activities, on their work, in the East 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, it may have born, and we know from the decoding 18operations of the Einsatzgruppen regularly reported their 19killing operations and there are enormous figures involved 20in them 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then, Mr Irving, can we face reality? There is an order 22in August 1941 that these people shall report to the 23Fuhrer on their activities 24A.
[Mr Irving]
The Fuhrer wishes to be kept constantly informed on the 25Einsatzgruppen operations. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is right, he wishes to have continuous report

. P-270

1A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the result, as I have put it, in the result in December 31942 he gets just such a report 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, I do not think you can say that because somebody gives 5an order in August 1941 and a document turns up, what, 16 6months later this is the result of that 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why not 8A.
[Mr Irving]
It may have been but it may not 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why not 10A.
[Mr Irving]
If it had turned up two weeks later then I would say yes 11there is probably a very clear link between one and the 12other 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If in August 1941 at the time that the Einsatzgruppen were 14just starting their work there is an order in place that 15the Fuhrer is to be supplied with regular reports of their 16work, it is not at all surprising that by December 1942 17that system is still in place and these reports are still 18coming in, is it 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree. Suppose in August 1941 you ask for a plumber 20to come and fix a sink, and finally in December 1942 a 21firm of plumbers contacts you and says, "here is an 22estimate for fixing your sink", it does not necessarily 23mean there is any connection between them 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not a very good analogy, Mr Irving. I do not ask 25the plumber for continuous plumbing over a period of time 26all over a large part of Eastern Europe. Better keep off

. P-271

1those sorts of analogies 2A.
[Mr Irving]
But then where are the other continuous reports, 3Mr Rampton? I have not seen them 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I do not know where they are, Mr Irving 5A.
[Mr Irving]
This is one report 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But this is a report of some of the work of the 7Einsatzgruppen in the East to be placed before the 8Fuhrer 9A.
[Mr Irving]
But this was not the only task of Einsatzgruppen. The 10Einsatzgruppen had a whole bunch of tasks they carried 11out 12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I really do think that you ought 13to consider the position. Hitler gives an order that he 14wants to be kept regularly informed about the shootings by 15the Einsatzgruppen 16A.
[Mr Irving]
No, he wants to be kept informed of the operations of the 17Einsatzgruppen 18MR RAMPTON: The work 19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The work, whatever you like, kept informed. 20That suggests he wants to be told on a repeated basis what 21is going on 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Are you suggesting that for some reason he countermanded 24that order or that it was not obeyed or what 25A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I am not, but I am not saying that it is established 26to my satisfaction at any rate that this document

. P-272

1is -- I am sure what the relevance is -- that this 2document is the direct product of that order 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, forget about whether it is the direct product. 4Would you not think it a reasonable inference that there 5would have been reports in one shape or form or another to 6him reaching Hitler's desk of the number of people being 7shot by the Einsatzgruppen 8A.
[Mr Irving]
One would have expected it, but this is the only one we 9have and this is what surprises us 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So you agree that one would expect that there would have 11been other similar reports 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, my Lord 13MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, let us look at it in a slightly 14different way. If, as you have proposed on occasion, the 15killings by the Einsatzgruppen in the East and some of the 16police battalions and some of the local malitia were 17merely, I say "merely" I do not mean to diminish what 18happened, but in the sense of structure, merely criminal 19acts by local maverick SS commanders and others, nobody 20would have dreamed of putting this document before 21Hitler,, would they 22A.
[Mr Irving]
You are regarding it in vacuo again. The episode which 23I recounted was at the end of 1941. The clock has now 24moved on one year, many things have happened. Germany has 25started to lose. People are getting frantic. The tide has 26turned as Churchill himself said, it was no longer the

. P-273

1beginning of the end, but it was the end of the beginning 2I think Churchill said. This was Stalingrad, it was 3encircled, El Allgemeine, the battle had been won. The 4Germans were now seeing the writing on the wall and it may 5well be that Himmler thought this was a good time to show 6this kind of thing to Hitler 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And for why 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I just remind you once again, this document is in my 9books 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. We are going to look at your books in some detail 11further on down the road, not today, Mr Irving, except for 12one remaining purpose 13A.
[Mr Irving]
That is what worries me about why we are spending the 14court's valuable time on looking at this document when 15I have gone into in great detail in my book 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because, Mr Irving, I think your position is that mass 17killings --- 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- not by gas but by other means were not systematic 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I have said all along mass killings occurred on the 21Eastern Front. This is the Eastern Front 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And then we started this little digression, if you 23remember, by your asking me what I meant by "systematic" 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I said and you agreed there are all those meldungs that go 26back to Heydrich's office

. P-274

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Halfway up the hierarchy 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Or whatever, but quite a long way up, halfway up the RHSA, 3he is head of the RHSA in Berlin 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He is quite close to Himmler 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who is quite close to Mr Hitler 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then this was another example designed only to illustrate 10this, that a reputable historian might well conclude that 11this document would not have surprised Adolf Hitler one 12bit 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Might not have 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Well, surely, use your imagination, Mr Irving, if 15I am Adolf Hitler I am king of the German world, as it 16were, and this is put in front of me and it represents 17something that I do not approve of, I am going to go 18through the roof, am I not 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not say he did disapprove of the killings of the Jews 20on the Eastern Front 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He did not 22A.
[Mr Irving]
He did in December 1941 in the case of the German Jews 23being killed. He was quite plain. I mean Himmler sent 24the message which the British decoded ordering the man 25responsible to come immediately to headquarters, but the 26killings on the Eastern Front of the Russian Jews and the

. P-275

1others, Hitler did not care about them 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is South Russia, the Ukraine and Bialystok which is 3on the border then of Poland and Russia 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Still the Eastern Front according to my map 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Though by 1942 quite a long way behind the Eastern Front 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the rear Eastern Front area. It is the area in which 7the SS still operated 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is miles away. It is right over, well, as you say, 9Stalingrad. This is the height of he battle for 10Stalingrad 11A.
[Mr Irving]
But it is the area in the rear of the Eastern Front where 12the Einsatzgruppen had h task of pacifying and cleansing 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Before I move on to something else, do you distinguish in 14your own mind a sensitivity in Hitler towards the murder 15of central or western Jews, German Jews, and the murder of 16363,000 Eastern Jews 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not sure what that question means, but if I say that 18one of his staff, Walter Havel, whose diary I had, said 19that if you want to understand Hitler's attitude to 20humanity was the way that a man might look on an ant heap, 21and that is how he regarded the Eastern peoples whether 22they were Jewish or not, but he very definitely intervened 23to stop the killing of German Jews at the time that 24I specified. So there was clearly a distinction in his 25own mind at that time 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are talking about two events a year apart

. P-276

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you are talking about two events a year apart. Also 2you are talking about the giving of the order and the 3receiving of meldung 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, surely, but that is in a completely different 5context, Mr Irving, as you very well know. You use what 6you say as Hitler's opposition to the Riga killings as 7having some kind of relevance to this document. Tell me 8what the relevance is 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Hitler clearly intervened, if we can assume that the fact 10that the telephone call in the first place was made from 11Hitler's bunker, and if we know that the next day Himmler 12was ordered to send or Himmler was required to send a 13radio message to the man who had carried out the killings 14telling him that he had overstepped the mark, that he had 15to follow the guidelines in the future with outsettled 16Jews, the ones sent from Germany, in other words, and this 17is clearly an indication that German Jews were kept in a 18different category because the killings then stopped as 19the historians agree for several months as far as the 20German Jews were concerned, but the killing operations of 21non-German Jews behind the Eastern Front continued and 22obviously, according to this document, on a huge scale. 23I can only repeat why are we wasting our time looking at 24this document which I have printed in my books, which 25I agree is authentic, I am not going to challenge the 26authenticity of it

. P-277

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Or the likely conclusion to be drawn from it that Hitler 2will have seen it 3A.
[Mr Irving]
We have agreed that it is probable that given that is says 4"forgaleg" it is probable that it was shown to Hitler 5because that is the phrase they would have used 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You deny, however, that there is any evidence that the 7shootings in East were systematic in the sense that they 8got up and were approved, got up to and were approved by 9the highest level 10A.
[Mr Irving]
To justify the word "systematic" I would want to not just 11one out message and one in message which is all we have 12separated by 18 months, I would want to see a flow of out 13and in and out and in, in the way that we are accustomed 14to seeing them in the archives 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have read what I call in shorthand the EMs coming in 16from the East to Heydrich's office, have you not 17A.
[Mr Irving]
They go up to Heydrich's office and hey are detailing 18purely these security operations 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Security operations. I mean they list killings of 20hundreds of thousands of Jews, as Jews, as Jews, not as 21partisans 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, let us have a look at all the other ones and see how 23they are categorized 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We will do 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I agree that the Jews are being brought in under that 26umbrella. They are being killed under that camouflage

. P-278

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are familiar with the Jager report, are you not 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but I very much hope we are going to have a look at 3the original 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are going to have a look at the original. We certainly 5are 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It comes from the Russian archives 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I want to be sure, because I do not want to do you any 8disservice at the end of this case. I want to make sure 9I have your position clear. You do not accept that that 10document, let alone its forerunner, you say it is not a 11forerunner, back in August 1941 is any evidence that the 12killings in the East by shooting, not by gassing, but the 13killings in the East by shooting is any evidence at all 14that this was a systematic process approved of at the 15highest level of the Third Reich 16A.
[Mr Irving]
That is my position 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. Thank you very much. Now I want to pass to 18something different. What you will need now are copies of 19your two books, 1991 Hitler's War and Goebbels Master Mind 20of the Third Reich. You will also need in case we need to 21refer to it, a copy of your opening yesterday. You will 22need D2 (i) (ii) and (iii). Forgive me, Mr Irving, I am 23just trying to find the document. I apologise for that 24pause, my Lord. Mr Irving, yesterday you made quite 25something of this document from the PRO which records 26statements made ---

. P-279

1A.
[Mr Irving]
The Bruns document 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- by General Bruns but secretly recorded 3A.
[Mr Irving]
That is true 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You told us that this document has considerable 5evidentiary value. It is not self-serving 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Not self-serving, yes 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And that it has the ring of truth from the phraseology and 8the things he describes, is that right 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, very similitude 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Do you have a copy of it with you or can you tell us 11where to find it 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the text is in my opening speech of course 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will try to use the same version as you 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 22 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, page 22 16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not 100 per cent accurate I remember 17noticing, but I do not think there is any real 18difference 19MR RAMPTON: I am just checking, my Lord, to see whether the 20two little passages which I have are the same 21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, the one right at the end 22MR RAMPTON: There is one, as your Lordship says, right at the 23end. As far as I can tell at a quick glance, the words 24which Mr Irving has printed in his speech are the same as 25I have on the document. So perhaps we can use the 26speech. In the middle of the page just below the middle

. P-280

1of page 22, Mr Irving, General Bruns reports having, as it 2were, been subjected to the experience of one of these 3Riga shootings. He reports that a man called Altemeyer 4said to him upon his protest at the use of, at the misuse 5of he waste of valuable manpower, Altemeyer said: "Well, 6let it be shot in accordance with the Fuhrer's orders. I, 7that is Bruns, said: Fuhrer's orders? Answer from 8Altemeyer: Yes. Whereupon he, Altemeyer, showed me, 9Bruns, his orders." Yes 10A.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct, yes 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is what is in the PRO document. Therefore, 12presumably, General Bruns actually said that 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And was recorded as having said it by Allies. If you go 15right to the end, the narrative is that they managed, 16Bruns and his colleagues managed, to get back to Berlin, 17perhaps to Canaris, an account of this shooting, perhaps 18in the form of an objection, is that right 19A.
[Mr Irving]
My reading of the document was -- in fact, we know also 20from other sources -- Gerald Fleming had done some very 21good work on this particular episode, that an Army 22Lieutenant wrote a report, having been sent down the road 23to go and have a look for himself by these cowardly German 24Generals, and this Army Lieutenant's report was sent over 25the Army Lieutenant's name up to Hitler's headquarters by 26the route of Admiral Canaris who was the Head of the

. P-281

1German Intelligence Service 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can I start at the bottom of the next page 24 where 3"Canaris" begins a line, do you see that 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Canaris had the unsavoury task of waiting for the 6favourable moment to give the Fuhrer certain gentle 7hints. A fortnight later I visited the Oberburgermeister, 8or whatever he was called then, concerning some other 9business. Altenmeyer(?) triumphantly showed me: 'Here is 10an order just issued prohibiting mass shootings on that 11scale from taking place in future'. They are to be 12carried out more discreetly.' From warnings given me 13recently, I knew that I was receiving still more 14attentions from spies", etc. 15 "They are to be carried more discreetly in 16future" means the shootings are to be carried out more 17discreetly in the future 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I would even go so far as to say mass shootings 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. It does not mean that the mass shootings were to 20come to an end, does it 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Not in that sentence, no 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What it means is that they must be more cleverly disguised 23from anybody who might notice what was going on 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just whilst you are on that document, you 26told us, I think, that Bruns would have been a Colonel

. P-282

1A.
[Mr Irving]
He was a Colonel at that time in the Engineer Corp. and he 2was a Major-General at the time of his capture in 1945 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And Altenmeyer, presumably, was his superior officer 4A.
[Mr Irving]
No, sir. Altenmeyer, his real name was "Altemeyer", 5without an "n", he was a 21 or 22 year-old very junior SS 6officer who just happened to have the lives of these 7unfortunate people in his power 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Hitler's orders go to him before they go to the Colonel 9A.
[Mr Irving]
No, sir the orders went -- I think the route was that 10Hitler told Himmler, who sent the message to Joachim which 11is what we talked about yesterday which we, British, 12intercepted and decoded, so we had an inkling of what was 13going on. Himmler said to Joachim, "Come straight to 14headquarters, that it had to stop". 15 In Himmler's diary on December 1st 1941, the 16following day, I noticed yesterday there is the telephone 17call from Himmler to Heydrich on December 1st, SS 18Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich "Executzionan in Riga", the 19executions, the shootings, in other words, in Riga, they 20talked about this very episode again on the day after it 21happened; and when Joachim came -- unfortunately, I cannot 22show you this, my Lord, that bundle is still at home; we 23know it from Himmler's diary in Moscow -- Joachim came to 24see Himmler on December 4th. Himmler wrote in his diary 25that evening that he dined with him at 9.30 p.m. and the 26topic of their conversation which Himmler also noted was

. P-283

1[German], Jewish question, and [German] "in Riga", which 2[German], economic businesses, small shops, something like 3that, in Riga, which fits rather in with Bruns' 4description, in my view, that these executions were 5causing problems in the local economy because they were 6running out of manpower, but that is a possible 7interpretation of that. 8 But, obviously, there was a certain amount of 9toing and froing from the very highest level down through 10these channels down to this very low level SS Officer who 11claims he received a Fuhrer order, if I may go into that, 12when the army Colonel came to see him and said, "What on 13earth is going on here?" and this very junior SS Officer 14said, "Oh, it is the Fuhrer's orders" which frequently was 15said. Frequently people claimed they were Fuhrer's 16orders. We know, however, from our other sources (which 17are much superior sources) that the Fuhrer's orders were 18distinctly very different in this case [German] "No 19liquidation" 20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But Bruns says that Altemeyer showed him the 21orders 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I do not attach too much importance to that, my Lord 23MR RAMPTON: Well, in considering all the other trappings of 24verisimilitude that this --- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I thought you might mention that, actually 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Of course I might mention it. It is obvious, is it not

. P-284

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but the problem we have with that, Mr Rampton, is how 2do you reconcile in with the kind of [German] in Himmler's 3own notes what Hitler told him, Jew transport, no 4liquidation 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have never shown us any evidence, shall I say, or any 6of your readers that Himmler [German] came from Hitler 7A.
[Mr Irving]
It is coming from Hitler's bunker, from a phone booth in 8Hitler's bunker, just as if I made a phone call from that 9phone booth outside 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But as I think you have accepted on your web site an hour 11before Himmler met Hitler 12A.
[Mr Irving]
But he was in and out all day. When you visited Hitler in 13his headquarters, you would have lunch with him, you would 14have tea with him, you would be in and out of Hitler's 15bunker all day 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The entry in his log for that day -- it is not a diary, 17except in the most primitive sense -- in Himmler's log, 18the only entry referring to Hitler is, I think, 1430, 19[German] or something along those --- 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I agree entirely with what you say, Mr Rampton, but 21I have to say that if he drives over to Hitler's 22headquarters and, for whatever reason, finds it necessary 23suddenly to telephone Heydrich and say, "That transport of 24Jews from Berlin is not to be liquidated", it is a very 25reasonable interpretation indeed to say this is not 26unconnected with the fact that he is speaking from

. P-285

1Hitler's bunker. And it would be perverse not to accept 2that 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, bear with me. I do wish that one could insert 4the word "objective" into every answer you give. It is a 5possibly, certainly, that Himmler spoke to Hitler before 6he made that telephone call. That is quite different, is 7it not, from an assertion that the telephone call was made 8on Hitler's orders 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I agree, I agree 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you have asserted the latter, have you not 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I agree, it is a judgment call, and it is a judgment call 12which -- may I speak? It is a judgment which, in my 13submission, is entirely justified. If Himmler drives over 14to Hitler's bunker in the train, [German] makes a few 15phone calls and then [German], from the bunker, from 16Hitler's Wolf's Lair bunker, he makes a phone call to 17Heydrich saying, "That train load of Jews is not to be 18liquidated", it would take a very perverse and obtuse 19person indeed to say there is no connection between the 20two facts 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
May I suggest that what an objective, reputable historian 22who was not punting a particular line to exonerate Adolf 23Hitler might have written would be something like this: 24The evidence is that Himmler saw Hitler about an hour 25after he made that telephone call. There is no direct 26evidence that Himmler spoke to Hitler before he made the

. P-286

1telephone call. It is possible that that telephone call 2was made at Hitler's instigation 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Why did he make the phone call from Hitler's bunker then 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because he happened to be there for heavens sake 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Why did he not make the phone call from his own 8headquarters? I do not want to say that I am less obtuse 9than you, but I am beginning to suspect it in this 10matter. It is not a question of reputable or not. It is 11a question of seeing a logical solution written in six 12inch letters in front of your own face 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see 14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: My impression, I think it is relevant on this 15topic, from your book Hitler's War is that at this time 16Himmler was seeing Hitler almost more often than anybody 17else 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Very frequently as we know now from his diary and 19telephone log, but you will appreciate that particular 20episode because it is a pivotal episode has now gone 21through three or four different chameleon like changes 22with very subtle refinements and a word knocked out here 23which cannot be justified and so on, as happens. One is 24constantly revising history. This does not mean to say 25one is manipulating or is in any way trying to exonerate. 26You are trying to get closer and closer and closer to the

. P-287

1likelihood of what actually happened 2MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, tell me plainly, we are off course 3again but it does not matter, we will get back on course 4in a moment, tell me plainly what is the evidence for 5this, this is in the 1991 edition --- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Right 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you have repeated it since. I think you repeat it in 8the appendices or the footnotes to Goebbels, these words: 9"On 30th November he, Himmler, was summoned to the Wolf's 10lair", pause there. Sorry, page 427 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I am looking at my Himmler diary because I know what you 12are going to say next 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I expect you know it off by heart 14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry 15MR RAMPTON: It is D1 (v). It is Hitler's War second volume, 161991 edition 17A.
[Mr Irving]
What is the evidence for --- 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Wait a minute. I am waiting until his Lordship has the 19volume 20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 21A.
[Mr Irving]
What page of Hitler's War is it? This is the new 22edition 23MR RAMPTON: Now you can help me with some German perhaps in a 24moment. It is the new edition. It is changed from the 251977 edition in that you have conceded that the Himmler 26order concerned but a single train load of Jews

. P-288

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Instead of Jews in general 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can you first of all explain why it was that in the 1977 5edition this passage referred to Jews in general 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It was a silly misreading of the word. If I show you the 7actual handwriting --- 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, it is printed in the book, is it not 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you said you misread, you could not 10read the handwriting of Himmler 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps I would like to show to his Lordship what the 12handwriting of Heydrich Himmler looks like 13MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship will find it in this --- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I have a reasonable facsimile of the original here. He 15wrote a particularly nasty form Gothic spiky handwriting 16which modern Germans cannot read either. You could show 17that document to several Germans in this room, unless they 18were the older generation, they would not be able to read 19it. It is pretty horrific. I admit I made a mistake in 20the transcription. I was paying more attention to the 21position of the full stops in the lines which are quite 22important 23MR RAMPTON: Yes. I have it somewhere here. You actually 24printed a facsimile of that page in both the editions, did 25you not 26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is in the following page 506

. P-289

1A.
[Mr Irving]
It would be remarkable if when one transcribes a lot of 2that handwriting one does not occasionally miss out a 3letter E or something like that. 4MR RAMPTON: When printing that as a facsimile in your editions 5Hitler's War, you would not expect your ordinary English 6reader to be able to decipher what it said 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I would be very surprised if they could decipher that 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Even if they knew German 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Older generation Germans can read that, prewar 10generations 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But your ordinary English reader, these books are 12published primarily in English, are they not 13A.
[Mr Irving]
No. My books are published in every language in the 14world 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I know, but are they written in English originally 16A.
[Mr Irving]
This one was, yes. I have written books in German too 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As you fairly concede even a modern German might struggle 18with that unless they had the old handwriting 19A.
[Mr Irving]
The point I am trying to make is that this is not 20manipulation on my part. It is not manipulation or 21distortion. It is a traffic accident, shall we say 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have to disagree with you. I do not have any training 23of the German language. I have relatively poor eyesight. 24I look at the word on the page and it quite plainly does 25not have an E on the end of it, does it 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No

. P-290

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is perfectly clear 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I now see that, yes 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why did you put an E on it? Were you in a terrible hurry 4or very tired or something when you wrote this 5A.
[Mr Irving]
You are asking me to recall. This was actually written in 61970. We are looking at something 30 years ago you and 7you are asking me why I had an E on the end of a word 8which I wrote 30 years ago 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will tell you why I am suggesting it was deliberate, 10Mr Irving, for a number of reasons which are cumulative, 11but one which is very closely related. There are two 12closely related reasons. The first we are coming back to 13in a moment which is the way you have handled he Bruns 14testimony, but the other is in relation to the entry for 15the following day, 1st December 1941, where for some 16reason best known to yourself, and of course we shall need 17to hear your explanation, you translate the words 18"[German] SS" as Jews 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That cannot be a misreading, can it 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I misread the word "harbun" for "uden" and I have it here 22in front of me and I will show that to his Lordship 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What have you got in front of you 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Himmler's diary, the actual handwritten page 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have not got that. We would like to see it. May we 26see it

. P-291

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Had I known you were going to attach importance to I would 2have provided you with any number of copies 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You would have heard in my opening speech that I attach 4some importance to it 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I am terribly sorry, but I had actually prepared a dozen 6facsimiles of this to bring in tomorrow in a bundle 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In fairness to you and perhaps to me we should leave it 8where it is until we get the facsimile 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I did envisage that I would have the running of this 10and that we would be looking at my bundle of stuff 11tomorrow 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The running of what, your cross-examination 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I had not --- 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Shall I sit down 15A.
[Mr Irving]
--- envisaged that I would envisioned I would be standing 16up for cross-examination today. Had I known that I would 17not have worked to 6 o'clock this morning preparing 18bundles 19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can blame me for that 20MR RAMPTON: That said, my Lord and since he was up until 6 21o'clock --- 22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: ! I agree with what you are about to say. 23I think you have had quite a long day. 10.30 tomorrow 24morning 25(The court adjourned until the following day)26