...What is he on about? I made pretty sure that SDL_SetRelativeMouse didn't change overall sensitivity compared to what was going on in 2.1.19 and before. Was james playing SRB2 before 2.1.20 to recall what things were like before? Or am I talking rubbish and somehow borked mouse sensitivity in 2.1.20 and no one told me?

Besides, I distinctly recall there being mouse sensitivity complaints from the days of 2.1.12 (or so) when we first switched to SDL2. But my memory is a little hazy, I'll have to look that up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotablyPrettyCrazy

And I can confirm that, while trying 1.09 or 2.0 after being used to 2.1, the mouse sensitivity felt quite a bit different.

Also, just tried windowed DirectDraw myself, mouse movement does feel more sluggish than windowed SDL2 even on 1280x800, a green resolution.

...wait, windowed is more sluggish on DirectDraw? Hm, will have to figure out what's up there then, when I can.

This game isn't just "Sonic 1/2/3 but in 3D", it has way more depth to it, and hiding this away behind a default setting means people won't be getting the full experience the game has to offer. Be it crawla bouncing, or seeing where you're meant to go next in an ascending section (past just the next platform) or even just admiring the levels themselves (who knows, that up there could be a secret cave...).
SRB2 can be beautiful if you play it at its fullest potential, let's teach people how to do that with a badass tutorial instead of having people look for a setting they might never even find.

So I'm not getting "the full experience" of SRB2, am I? I'm a pretty decent Crawla bouncer myself, and aiming the camera down and BEHIND my character does absolutely nothing to improve my bouncing or my platforming. If I'm on a high enough platform that I can't see the ground beneath me, pointing the camera down does nothing to increase my view. Pointing the camera down while jumping off makes me question my character's positioning, because they are now perpendicular with the ground rather than parallel, due to the way the game and characters are rendered. And as for seeing where I need to go next in "ascending section," the level design means I see everything I need to see and usually a good deal ahead of when I'm expected to be there.

I can understand wanting to appreciate the level design more and how looking up and down can be slightly helpful in that case, but that's not the priority for brand new players. The camera in SRB2 is straight up bad at scrolling vertically; if this aspect were improved, my tune might change, but in its current state it should absolutely be turned off by default. Maybe have mouse-look set to a button by default, and this button be directly relayed to the player so that they can see if they will have need of it.

I did get 2.1.20 natively compiled once, and if I recall correctly the mouse was centered and its sensitivity was normal. The only issue I had was that the build wasn't netplay compatible, which pretty much destroyed any point in continuing to use it (since I can switch to 2.1.19 in Wineskin to play single player with my mouse). I don't know if this is too much to ask but a simple exe flag that launches the game with 2.1.19's mouse code would be sufficient in future builds. I get that it seems kind of pointless though, considering I'm the only person who seems to have this issue.

If I'm on a high enough platform that I can't see the ground beneath me, pointing the camera down does nothing to increase my view.

I don't know if using OpenGL means I'm seeing things differently, but please, tell me how there is no difference between these images. For example if one were about to attempt a crawla jump from here.

While the camera's vertical movement is indeed quite weird, what with not staying centered on the character, it does far from nothing.

As far as level design goes, while in a game like this it's obviously not a good design choice to force players to look up/down to see where you're going, I see nothing bad in the possibility of seeing more than what's just in front of you, and while good level design should give a sense of direction, saying that it should also always let you see "a good deal ahead" just by looking straight forward sounds very limiting.

As for looking around being or not the priority for new players, you don't get to decide whether or not it is. Usually my first playthroughs consist in a pretty thorough exploration of the level (which includes when I was first trying out the game), and while I'm not every person that plays this game of course, there are others who like to do the same, and a default off setting would be limiting that while keeping it on doesn't effectively stop anyone from doing anything. Moving the mouse only to the side cannot seriously be that much of a problem...

I don't know if using OpenGL means I'm seeing things differently, but please, tell me how there is no difference between these images. For example if one were about to attempt a crawla jump from here.

While the camera's vertical movement is indeed quite weird, what with not staying centered on the character, it does far from nothing.

As far as level design goes, while in a game like this it's obviously not a good design choice to force players to look up/down to see where you're going, I see nothing bad in the possibility of seeing more than what's just in front of you, and while good level design should give a sense of direction, saying that it should also always let you see "a good deal ahead" just by looking straight forward sounds very limiting.

As for looking around being or not the priority for new players, you don't get to decide whether or not it is. Usually my first playthroughs consist in a pretty thorough exploration of the level (which includes when I was first trying out the game), and while I'm not every person that plays this game of course, there are others who like to do the same, and a default off setting would be limiting that while keeping it on doesn't effectively stop anyone from doing anything. Moving the mouse only to the side cannot seriously be that much of a problem...

Your screenshots, while unexpected, only further my case that the camera in SRB2 doesn't work properly. I never would have though to stand on the edge of a platform that way in order to see what is below, because the natural inclination is to face the edge of the ledge and point the camera down. So while I do need to rescind my statement that the camera can do nothing for you on a tall platform, this still isn't a technique that is communicated to players or logically implemented.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying in regarding to ascending sections. I do not think you should be able to see everything in front of you at all times, ala Crash Bandicoot. I'm just saying that even in sections like the rising water tunnel in Castle Eggman, you can see layers of platforms above you without moving the camera up or down and you intuitively know to be heading upward. The FOV is pretty large by default in SRB2 which means I've never had to look up to see a platform that was out of view, unless I had no means of reaching the platform at all currently.

As for deciding the "priority" of players, it might not be my decision to make, but I'm pretty sure at this point the thread is about what developers are thinking of making the priority for new players. It's not up to a vote, so all this discussion is probably pointless, but I think having mouse look on by default is bad for new players who will have trouble orienting themselves because they are staring too much at the ground or too much at the sky when the level design seems to assume that you are looking forward at all times. It must be "that much of a problem" if Mystic's data and videos like this show players confusion with this, which is only compounded by the high mouse sensitivity default.

I think putting mouselook to a button is a good idea because it would allow players to scope out areas if they wanted to, and if its a feature they prioritize, they can turn it back on as a default. For me, while there may be a handful of opportunities now that I may take advantage of thanks to your screenshots enlightening me, having mouselook on full time would only be a hindrance to me because I can't keep a steady enough hand on the mouse; I have the same problem with the Metroid Prime games on Wii, where the view is constantly moving because my hands just aren't steady enough.

Using the video in the OP as a reason to remove mouselook by default is the largest fallacy here because the issue is clearly that the players are too afraid to move the mouse up to correct the camera with the fear that it'll send them looking in the wrong direction left/right from the far too high sensitivity. Probably from the issues with default sensitivity we've already heard. I highly doubt these players don't understand that moving the mouse up and down changes the direction the camera will look up or down.

Using the video in the OP as a reason to remove mouselook by default is the largest fallacy here...

I'm not using just this video here. ALL of my data has suggested this is a problem. Every video of newbies using mouse camera control has the new player struggling with this. Every tester I have used has either struggled with it or turned it off. Every thread I read talks about how "awful" the camera is, sometimes directly even talking about it pointing straight at the ground, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together here.

I'm not saying this on a whim. All of the things I posted above were known information from research long before this video came out. This video just reiterates things we already knew.

We still don't have a valid reason why saying "if you find yourself having problems with vertical mouselook (such as the camera pointing up or down too much) you can change the vertical sensitivity or disable vertical looking altogether in the options" in the tutorial isn't a viable solution to this.
And no, the fact that you believe many people will do so is not one, because at least people who won't, have the choice.

We still don't have a valid reason why saying "if you find yourself having problems with vertical mouselook (such as the camera pointing up or down too much) you can change the vertical sensitivity or disable vertical looking altogether in the options" in the tutorial isn't a viable solution to this.
And no, the fact that you believe many people will do so is not one, because at least people who won't, have the choice.

You still have the choice. It's simply opt-in, not opt-out. You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill here. Let's say, as we both believe, that new players are unlikely to know that you can change this setting. Let's look at the four conditions here:

Default on, player has control of this: No problem.

Default on, player doesn't have control of this: Camera pointing at floor constantly. Camera is shitty. SRB2 is a shitty game.

Default off, player desires vertical mouselook: Camera operating fine but suboptimally. Player can still play the game fine.

Default off, player wanted that anyways: No problem.

This is the primary reason why defaulting off is the way to go. One failure state leads to a player not having a desired feature, whereas the other leads to SRB2 being awful and deleted and questioning why in hell is this popular to begin with.

If we were going to mention it in the tutorial (and I will note that's an internal discussion we'll need to have), we'd say something along the lines of "we've disabled vertical camera movement by default, but if you want to turn it on, you can find the feature in the mouse options". After all, we all know that many players ignore tutorials entirely. The tutorial will be just another tool in our attempt to fix this problem; it's not a panacea.

Let's say, as we both believe, that new players are unlikely to know that you can change this setting.

No, they are NOT going to be unlikely to know it if you TELL them. You're telling me why defaulting off without saying anything is the way to go, but that wasn't what I asked.

Quote:

After all, we all know that many players ignore tutorials entirely.

And now we move to defeatism. By this logic, why even bother making a good tutorial, or hell, even making one at all?

Legendary Emerald is probably right in saying this isn't up to a vote anyway so this discussion is pointless, but if you believe defaulting off is the only solution to this, go on. I certainly won't struggle with turning it back on immediately, but don't be surprised when you'll have people who learn they can look down before crawla bouncing after years thanks to a MB discussion because you were too afraid to make people use the game's full controls. I'm done.

I played games based on the doom engine that uses this kind of camera too, so it's a possible thing to do.

Talking with another player about the vertical mouselook, they suggested this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PersistantRubine

here's an idea for the tutorial someone could suggest;
A section the player can replay that is basic enough, and comes with a free "Disable/re-enable mouse-look" teleporter or smth to let the player play a basic platforming scenario with both cameras.
Let's them decide what THEY want.

And now we move to defeatism. By this logic, why even bother making a good tutorial, or hell, even making one at all?

This isn't defeatism. This is how you properly handle a problem. If you have an issue (like, say, newbies not understanding the controls), you don't want to create a single fix and just assume that'll solve it for everyone. You want to put in backup fixes and other strategies to try to help as many people as possible. A tutorial would clearly help some people learn our game! That's a great idea, and that's why we're making one, but it won't help everyone. We want to help those players who, say, think they know what they're doing, skip the tutorial, and don't actually know what they're doing. This is the reasoning behind a huge number of the changes in 2.2. It's not that the tutorial is a bad idea, it's that the problem is big enough that we should try multiple solutions so that if one solution doesn't work for someone, another one of them might.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzz

The solution to this would be just fixing the camera, because the problem isn't the vertical mouselook, but the camera itself.

Fixing our camera's handling of vertical motion does not solve the core issue here. The problem is that players are moving the mouse to change the camera sideways (as we intend them to do) and also moving it vertically unintentionally. Making the camera work better would be great for those who want this functionality, but these people aren't using this function on purpose. No matter how you set up the camera, looking down is going to point at the floor on flat ground, not a helpful direction.

Dunno if this was obvious or not at all, but apparently SRB2's list of controls includes a "mouselook" option. IIRC that flips on or off mouselook when you hold it down, depending on whether the mousemove (?) console variable is flipped on or off at the time. In other words, it inverts whether mouselook is on or not.

Here's a idea. How about we label the arrow key controls as "Beginner" controls and add some camera control keys to that setup that moves the camera a fixed distance (Think SM64, not the best camera in the world at least you always had control over it) and use the WASD and mouse controls as "Advanced" controls and allow you to toggle between the two controls in the options rather then having both on at the same time. If people somehow accidentally start staring at dirt in "Beginner Mode" then all they'd have to do it hit "Cam Up" once and the problem would be solved.

This way you could also map keys used in "Advanced Mode" to different functions in "Beginner Mode" like say ... map camera controls to WASD in "Beginner Mode" and then you could leave "Advanced Mode" as it is now. I think this would be less intrusive then disabling the ability to look up and down by default as it'd be no different then choosing a difficulty mode before you start the game like in the old versions of the game and you could in theory, change modes on the fly though the pause screen.

It's difficult to judge the viewpoints of new players when so few of them are active members of the Message Board (let alone this discussion). As someone who only started playing this game regularly two Christmases ago, I'd like to mention that the game's default mouse system really turned me off using a mouse to play. I didn't want to hassle with looking up or down because the controls as a whole were still unfamiliar and not being able to look exactly where I wanted made for a very awkward gameplay experience. The controls menu isn't particularly obvious about how to fix this issue, either. Because of this I stuck with keyboard controls for several months until I was familiar enough with them to realize the full power and potential of the mouse. (Not that it matters anymore since the latest update broke my mouse support cough cough, but I digress.)

Mystic is right. There's no reason to have the fundamental control setup be overwhelming for new players when it would take an experienced player two seconds to revert any training-wheel defaults they disliked and save new players the trouble of trying to figure out how to make their experience more comfortable.

Before this thread (along with its fight for and against disabling vertical mouse-look by default), I thought that SRB2 2.2 was said to not have a tutorial. But if it is going to have a tutorial, and that tutorial explains that you can enable/disable vertical mouse-look in the options, I will say that I'm going to be completely okay with whether it's enabled or disabled by default. (If someone skips the tutorial and then doesn't learn about something (vertical mouse-look) as a result of that, it's sort of their own fault in my personal opinion.)