I don't like to see my government endorsing any of that shit, however.

I agree with you on this.

The government (not your government) should be neutral to these beliefs. It also should not do anything the infringes upon the right of people to practice in accordance with their beliefs unless these practices somehow infringe on the basic rights of life, liberty and property of citizens which the government is charged with protecting. For example, religious beliefs that involved virgin sacrifices might be a place where the government might have a place to step in assuming the virgins being sacrificed have not voluntarily agreed to be sacrificed.

In fact, in my view, this is the limit of the state's responsibility: protecting the basic rights of life, liberty and property of the people in its geographical scope. That's it. anything beyond this is, in my view, an inappropriate expansion of the power and role and responsibility of the state.

What's interesting is that I do not see any scientific basis for you to hold this position. I mean, you're simply expression your wishes, opinions and values. You are expressing what ought to happen (or not). Tell me, what is the scientific basis for this?

I am worried when I see people who sincerely and strongly believe in stuff for which there is scant or no evidence. I am worried that they may gain power in society beyond what they already have.

Then we agree. Mere belief harms nobody. Actions are what we should be concerned about.

You are worried that people who don't believe as you do will gain control of government and use it to force everyone else to do what they want. The real problem, then, is that government has such power in the first place.

The government (not your government) should be neutral to these beliefs. It also should not do anything the infringes upon the right of people to practice in accordance with their beliefs unless these practices somehow infringe on the basic rights of life, liberty and property of citizens which the government is charged with protecting. For example, religious beliefs that involved virgin sacrifices might be a place where the government might have a place to step in assuming the virgins being sacrificed have not voluntarily agreed to be sacrificed.

In fact, in my view, this is the limit of the state's responsibility: protecting the basic rights of life, liberty and property of the people in its geographical scope. That's it. anything beyond this is, in my view, an inappropriate expansion of the power and role and responsibility of the state.

What's interesting is that I do not see any scientific basis for you to hold this position. I mean, you're simply expression your wishes, opinions and values. You are expressing what ought to happen (or not). Tell me, what is the scientific basis for this?

And yes, reason seems ot work better than faith as a method of discovering truth.

You seem to be suffering under the incorrect notion that faith and reason are polar opposites, even mutually exclusive to one another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26

OK, there is scant evidence, most of which has been soundly disproven.

Of course you are wrong. But I suspect there's little I'd be able to say to change your mind. What with you being a "man of reason" and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26

And many dictionaries report that "faith" is used to mean belief despite lack of evidence.

But this does not mean no evidence or even scant evidence. People (including yourself) live their lives every single day relying, to varying degrees, on faith in various things. For some of those things there is much evidence so the amount of faith required is small, for other things there is less evidence so more faith is required.

The government is prohibited by law from "subscribing" to the "techniques" you describe. Its representatives are not, however, prevented from expressing the beliefs of the people they represent. The government cannot prevent the expression of the people. The fact is that pushing your beliefs on others is EXACTLY what you seek to accomplish.

If they do not use government land, government occasions and government power to express their crazed ideologies, I can live with that.

But I sincerely object to, for example, the President saying "God Bless America" during the State of the Union speech.

This is just your opinion...your feeling about what ought to be (or not be). Who cares? Why should anyone adhere to what you think should (or shouldn't) be done?

the debate about what ought to be done could be based upon reason, or it could be based upon superstition. For example, Kant proposed a system of ethics based upon reason, while others say that we should not murder based upon the command of their supernatural friend in some old book.

The two methods arrive in the same place. But "God wants us to kill the Commies" has no place in government.

I believe that certain types of government are better than others. I have no scientific proof. It is a belief. It is an opinion, given the lack of empirical proof.

So what? does that mean I must respect people who throw virgins into a volcano as a means of making it rain?

You've spent the better part or your time in this thread mocking, ridiculing, dismissing and rejecting (and calling for others to do the same) people who have certain beliefs...faith in certain things, and then start declaring your own values, based on your own (admitted) beliefs and faith.

the debate about what ought to be done could be based upon reason, or it could be based upon superstition. For example, Kant proposed a system of ethics based upon reason, while others say that we should not murder based upon the command of their supernatural friend in some old book.

The two methods arrive in the same place. But "God wants us to kill the Commies" has no place in government.

First, I don't see you offering any reasoned or rational basis for imposing what you want (based on your beliefs and faith) onto others.

You're simply telling us that some people believe and have faith in things which you find unbelievable, but then declare how the world should work according to your belief.

On what basis should your particular wishes be given any credence? In what way are they based on rationality and reason?

Second, I'm not sure who you're quoting about God wanting us to kill commies.

You've spent the better part or your time in this thread mocking, ridiculing, dismissing and rejecting (and calling for others to do the same) people who have certain beliefs...faith in certain things, and then start declaring your own values, based on your own (admitted) beliefs and faith.

What make your belief (faith) more valid than any others?

Faith and belief are not the same thing. And faith in the supernatural is not the same as faith in other areas.

And besides, I don't have a big difference of opinion between those who have faith in aliens (a physically provable proposition) and those who have faith in supernatural forces which can never, by definition, be detected.

That was my honest reaction. He actually said he finds the POTUS saying "God Bless America" to be offensive. Honestly, how is your reaction not the name?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2012

I do find the Mormon mythology somewhat bizarre, but my point was to ensure on this forum at least people are aware of the details of what Mitt Romney is supposed to believe as a Mormon.
As to whether I am making fun of it, I try not to, but sometimes these are the same people that think global warming is a made-up thing.
Of course, you can believe whatever you want, that's cool, but we should be educated on what exactly people believe and not just say "Mormon Mormon Mormon" without knowing what exactly that means.

1. Referring to Mormon beliefs as "mythology" is an attack on their faith. Do you believe all religions practice "mythology?"

2. Ah, the non-sequitur. Please show evidence for your assertion. While you're at it, make a concise case that global warming is actually occurring.

3. It's pretty clear you don't know what it means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvfox

Mormon someone told me is a type of cultist religion years ago.

When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not, hmmm?

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

That was my honest reaction. He actually said he finds the POTUS saying "God Bless America" to be offensive. Honestly, how is your reaction not the name?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2012

I do find the Mormon mythology somewhat bizarre, but my point was to ensure on this forum at least people are aware of the details of what Mitt Romney is supposed to believe as a Mormon.
As to whether I am making fun of it, I try not to, but sometimes these are the same people that think global warming is a made-up thing.
Of course, you can believe whatever you want, that's cool, but we should be educated on what exactly people believe and not just say "Mormon Mormon Mormon" without knowing what exactly that means.

1. Referring to Mormon beliefs as "mythology" is an attack on their faith. Do you believe all religions practice "mythology?"

2. Ah, the non-sequitur. Please show evidence for your assertion. While you're at it, make a concise case that global warming is actually occurring.

3. It's pretty clear you don't know what it means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvfox

Mormon someone told me is a type of cultist religion years ago.

When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not, hmmm?

Quote:

That was my honest reaction

You know I really believe you!

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

I actually have two problems with god bless America. First, the religious invocation really does have no place from someone acting in an official governmental capacity. However, secondly, it's pretty fucking self-centered. Why not the entire world? Ya, go America but fuuuck everyone else! Yay us! Boo them! Why not end every speech with, "May humans soon all live in peace with one another."?

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

1. Referring to Mormon beliefs as "mythology" is an attack on their faith. Do you believe all religions practice "mythology?"

Huh? It's not an "attack" on anything (watching too much Faux News, perhaps?). All religions, I feel, have theological AND mythological aspects.

What I consider mythology are things like the burning bush, God in Kolob, Jesus coming down with clouds all around, aliens visiting Earth, etc. Whether you believe it or not, is your choice. But I consider it mythology. Just like the Norse, Roman and Greek Gods. Why should Christian, Muslim and Mormon Gods be seen differently?

I actually have two problems with god bless America. First, the religious invocation really does have no place from someone acting in an official governmental capacity. However, secondly, it's pretty fucking self-centered. Why not the entire world? Ya, go America but fuuuck everyone else! Yay us! Boo them! Why not end every speech with, "May humans soon all live in peace with one another."?

I actually have two problems with god bless America. First, the religious invocation really does have no place from someone acting in an official governmental capacity. However, secondly, it's pretty fucking self-centered. Why not the entire world? Ya, go America but fuuuck everyone else! Yay us! Boo them! Why not end every speech with, "May humans soon all live in peace with one another."?

I've heard that. But I don't believe it...I mean, I don't see the horns on his head and the forked tail from his backside...and he's not constantly walking around, foaming at the mouth saying "MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. Give me more money."

I've heard that. But I don't believe it...I mean, I don't see the horns on his head and the forked tail from his backside...and he's not constantly walking around, foaming at the mouth saying "MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. Give me more money."

He's a master of evil. Not unlike...umm...SATAN!

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.