McLaren have officially announced button will drive at Monaco. Best of luck to him, hope he kicks some donkey.

And they will give him zero time in the car until the race itself. What?

Practice and qualy?

My point is: Button never drove that car. There is a chance to let him do some FP sessions before the Monaco race to get accustomed to the car. But they are not letting him do so, which either show that Mclaren is helpless anyway, expecting that not even practice can help Button, or that they have big faith in Buttons ability, or, possibly, they are obliged to have this and this driver in those FP's.

Whatever the case, Button would profit greatly if he would have chance to try that car.

McLaren have officially announced button will drive at Monaco. Best of luck to him, hope he kicks some donkey.

And they will give him zero time in the car until the race itself. What?

Practice and qualy?

My point is: Button never drove that car. There is a chance to let him do some FP sessions before the Monaco race to get accustomed to the car. But they are not letting him do so, which either show that Mclaren is helpless anyway, expecting that not even practice can help Button, or that they have big faith in Buttons ability, or, possibly, they are obliged to have this and this driver in those FP's.

Whatever the case, Button would profit greatly if he would have chance to try that car.

Well, I'm guessing they are prioritising practice for their regular drivers, tbh. It doesn't make sense to me to take track time away from them for a guy who will be in the car for a single race at a completely different circuit

Regardless of whether they let him do the Indy 500 or race Le Mans or even challenge Usain Bolt in the 100 meters; Fernando had better move on to another team for 2018 if he ever wants to win another grand prix. I see McLaren as Williams 2.0 now officially. Hope I'm wrong for the record but I doubt it.

Regardless of whether they let him do the Indy 500 or race Le Mans or even challenge Usain Bolt in the 100 meters; Fernando had better move on to another team for 2018 if he ever wants to win another grand prix. I see McLaren as Williams 2.0 now officially. Hope I'm wrong for the record but I doubt it.

McLaren would have to make a giant leap in progress in order to be considered Williams 2.0. At least Williams reliably gets into the top 10. McLaren has no hope of ever doing that without massive amounts of retirements.

Yes, Alonso MUST leave McLaren if he ever wants to win again. So should everyone else in McLaren. They are destined for utter failure.

Fernando Alonso to return to Renault??? Salivating!! First talks began this Saturday according to the German publication "Bild". Renault *wants Alonso back!!

Clearly Alonso would jump at the chance. This quote during the race was *priceless*.

“How they can overtake me? 300 metres behind me, and they overtake me on the straight,” Alonso said. “I’ve never raced with less power in my life.”

I don't see Renault challenging for titles before the end of Alonso's career - the team was heavily gutted towards the end of the Lotus era and they've still got a lot of rebuilding to do. Surely before signing up for something like this he should be looking into Raikkonen and Bottas' seats?

Regardless of whether they let him do the Indy 500 or race Le Mans or even challenge Usain Bolt in the 100 meters; Fernando had better move on to another team for 2018 if he ever wants to win another grand prix. I see McLaren as Williams 2.0 now officially. Hope I'm wrong for the record but I doubt it.

McLaren would have to make a giant leap in progress in order to be considered Williams 2.0. At least Williams reliably gets into the top 10. McLaren has no hope of ever doing that without massive amounts of retirements.

Yes, Alonso MUST leave McLaren if he ever wants to win again. So should everyone else in McLaren. They are destined for utter failure.

I think he means the decline. Williams battled or won the titles in 86,87,91,92,93,94,95,96,97 before the first decline when they lost Newey and Renault. They didn't win until BMW came in 2000 and won again in 01,02,03 and 04 with a title challenge in 2003.

The real Williams drop was after 2005 when BMW withdrew. They didn't win again until 2012 and even that was a slight fluke. 2006-2011 was a real rough time for Williams. 6 years. The Mclaren struggle in now in its 5th year too 2013-2017. 2015-2017 have gone lower than Williams ever managed but I feel Mclaren have more chance to bounce back than Williams did.

Funnily enough, all of Williams' success involved being powered by the best engine as a works team.

Regardless of whether they let him do the Indy 500 or race Le Mans or even challenge Usain Bolt in the 100 meters; Fernando had better move on to another team for 2018 if he ever wants to win another grand prix. I see McLaren as Williams 2.0 now officially. Hope I'm wrong for the record but I doubt it.

McLaren would have to make a giant leap in progress in order to be considered Williams 2.0. At least Williams reliably gets into the top 10. McLaren has no hope of ever doing that without massive amounts of retirements.

Yes, Alonso MUST leave McLaren if he ever wants to win again. So should everyone else in McLaren. They are destined for utter failure.

I think he means the decline. Williams battled or won the titles in 86,87,91,92,93,94,95,96,97 before the first decline when they lost Newey and Renault. They didn't win until BMW came in 2000 and won again in 01,02,03 and 04 with a title challenge in 2003.

The real Williams drop was after 2005 when BMW withdrew. They didn't win again until 2012 and even that was a slight fluke. 2006-2011 was a real rough time for Williams. 6 years. The Mclaren struggle in now in its 5th year too 2013-2017. 2015-2017 have gone lower than Williams ever managed but I feel Mclaren have more chance to bounce back than Williams did.

Funnily enough, all of Williams' success involved being powered by the best engine as a works team.

Agreed with everything you said, except I think McLaren is finished as a team. The lose of Ron Dennis coupled with this complete Honda disaster has truly wrecked this once great team.

Honda was Ron Dennis idea so i don't think losing Dennis was such a loss as all he needed was a better chassis/aero when he had the Mercedes engine not unproven Honda engines. He had also been screwing up the driver combinations since 2007.

Honda was Ron Dennis idea so i don't think losing Dennis was such a loss as all he needed was a better chassis/aero when he had the Mercedes engine not unproven Honda engines. He had also been screwing up the driver combinations since 2007.

It was Whitmarsh's idea as well, and it was still the right call. They just didn't foresee the PCI like every other team bar Mercedes did and they couldn't have known Honda would take this long to sort it out.

And I can't agree about their drivers combinations to be honest, it's been mostly very good since then with the exception of Lewis-Kova and JB-KMag IMO.

Vandoorne has had absolutely nothing go his way so far so jury's out on that one but Lewis-JB,JB-Perez and Alo-JB are very good pairs imo.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Honda was Ron Dennis idea so i don't think losing Dennis was such a loss as all he needed was a better chassis/aero when he had the Mercedes engine not unproven Honda engines. He had also been screwing up the driver combinations since 2007.

It was Whitmarsh's idea as well, and it was still the right call. They just didn't foresee the PCI like every other team bar Mercedes did and they couldn't have known Honda would take this long to sort it out.

And I can't agree about their drivers combinations to be honest, it's been mostly very good since then with the exception of Lewis-Kova and JB-KMag IMO.

Vandoorne has had absolutely nothing go his way so far so jury's out on that one but Lewis-JB,JB-Perez and Alo-JB are very good pairs imo.

Lewis and Kovaleinen was the only combo that won the title (and with a slightly slower car). The years of Hamilton and Button taking points off of eachother while Vettel and Alonso finished 1-2 should have been a lesson learned...

Honda was Ron Dennis idea so i don't think losing Dennis was such a loss as all he needed was a better chassis/aero when he had the Mercedes engine not unproven Honda engines. He had also been screwing up the driver combinations since 2007.

It was Whitmarsh's idea as well, and it was still the right call. They just didn't foresee the PCI like every other team bar Mercedes did and they couldn't have known Honda would take this long to sort it out.

And I can't agree about their drivers combinations to be honest, it's been mostly very good since then with the exception of Lewis-Kova and JB-KMag IMO.

Vandoorne has had absolutely nothing go his way so far so jury's out on that one but Lewis-JB,JB-Perez and Alo-JB are very good pairs imo.

Lewis and Kovaleinen was the only combo that won the title (and with a slightly slower car). The years of Hamilton and Button taking points off of eachother while Vettel and Alonso finished 1-2 should have been a lesson learned...

Oh I get that and it speaks to something we were talking about in another thread last week about strongest driver pairings.

I'm going strictly on the drivers strength individually.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Last edited by Lotus49 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Regardless of whether they let him do the Indy 500 or race Le Mans or even challenge Usain Bolt in the 100 meters; Fernando had better move on to another team for 2018 if he ever wants to win another grand prix. I see McLaren as Williams 2.0 now officially. Hope I'm wrong for the record but I doubt it.

McLaren would have to make a giant leap in progress in order to be considered Williams 2.0. At least Williams reliably gets into the top 10. McLaren has no hope of ever doing that without massive amounts of retirements.

Yes, Alonso MUST leave McLaren if he ever wants to win again. So should everyone else in McLaren. They are destined for utter failure.

I think he means the decline. Williams battled or won the titles in 86,87,91,92,93,94,95,96,97 before the first decline when they lost Newey and Renault. They didn't win until BMW came in 2000 and won again in 01,02,03 and 04 with a title challenge in 2003.

The real Williams drop was after 2005 when BMW withdrew. They didn't win again until 2012 and even that was a slight fluke. 2006-2011 was a real rough time for Williams. 6 years. The Mclaren struggle in now in its 5th year too 2013-2017. 2015-2017 have gone lower than Williams ever managed but I feel Mclaren have more chance to bounce back than Williams did.

Funnily enough, all of Williams' success involved being powered by the best engine as a works team.

Agreed with everything you said, except I think McLaren is finished as a team. The lose of Ron Dennis coupled with this complete Honda disaster has truly wrecked this once great team.

The current management are picking up the pieces of over a decade of mismanagement. Much of which was down to Ron Dennis.

alonso in talks with renault already about 2018....articles everywhere about this, and they brought it up on the broadcast yesterday. not surprising

Makes sense. Works team, plenty of money, on the ascendancy, no tier 1 driver in place, etc. Makes as good a destination as any for him to make his last stand in F1 and I like the nostalgia of ending his career with the team that he first rose to prominence on. Also I think Palmer has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he doesn't belong in F1.

alonso in talks with renault already about 2018....articles everywhere about this, and they brought it up on the broadcast yesterday. not surprising

Makes sense. Works team, plenty of money, on the ascendancy, no tier 1 driver in place, etc. Makes as good a destination as any for him to make his last stand in F1 and I like the nostalgia of ending his career with the team that he first rose to prominence on. Also I think Palmer has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he doesn't belong in F1.

I'm sure he's watching Renault closely enough but I think McLaren are still the most likely. He seems to get on very well with Zak and Eric and they appear open to letting him do things outside F1.

They also seem to be heading in the right direction car wise still so if Honda can show something, anything really, during the summer and after the summer break especially then I think that's still the better bet at this stage.

But until business is conducted elsewhere he won't commit anywhere.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I'm sure he's watching Renault closely enough but I think McLaren are still the most likely. He seems to get on very well with Zak and Eric and they appear open to letting him do things outside F1.

They also seem to be heading in the right direction car wise still so if Honda can show something, anything really, during the summer and after the summer break especially then I think that's still the better bet at this stage.

But until business is conducted elsewhere he won't commit anywhere.

I agree with you for the most part. But if anything this PU appears to be the worst one Honda have brought in the three years since their return. I think they're going to have to show a major leap in the summer for Alonso to consider staying. Simply getting on top of their gremlins won't cut it and I suspect Alonso's going to want to see some concrete evidence that they can leapfrog the midfield for him to even consider staying. He sounds very much like a man at the end of his tether

Regardless of whether they let him do the Indy 500 or race Le Mans or even challenge Usain Bolt in the 100 meters; Fernando had better move on to another team for 2018 if he ever wants to win another grand prix. I see McLaren as Williams 2.0 now officially. Hope I'm wrong for the record but I doubt it.

McLaren would have to make a giant leap in progress in order to be considered Williams 2.0. At least Williams reliably gets into the top 10. McLaren has no hope of ever doing that without massive amounts of retirements.

Yes, Alonso MUST leave McLaren if he ever wants to win again. So should everyone else in McLaren. They are destined for utter failure.

I think he means the decline. Williams battled or won the titles in 86,87,91,92,93,94,95,96,97 before the first decline when they lost Newey and Renault. They didn't win until BMW came in 2000 and won again in 01,02,03 and 04 with a title challenge in 2003.

The real Williams drop was after 2005 when BMW withdrew. They didn't win again until 2012 and even that was a slight fluke. 2006-2011 was a real rough time for Williams. 6 years. The Mclaren struggle in now in its 5th year too 2013-2017. 2015-2017 have gone lower than Williams ever managed but I feel Mclaren have more chance to bounce back than Williams did.

Funnily enough, all of Williams' success involved being powered by the best engine as a works team.

Agreed with everything you said, except I think McLaren is finished as a team. The lose of Ron Dennis coupled with this complete Honda disaster has truly wrecked this once great team.

The current management are picking up the pieces of over a decade of mismanagement. Much of which was down to Ron Dennis.

It won't make a blind bit of difference what management they have as long as Honda don't sort their PU out

I'm sure he's watching Renault closely enough but I think McLaren are still the most likely. He seems to get on very well with Zak and Eric and they appear open to letting him do things outside F1.

They also seem to be heading in the right direction car wise still so if Honda can show something, anything really, during the summer and after the summer break especially then I think that's still the better bet at this stage.

But until business is conducted elsewhere he won't commit anywhere.

I agree with you for the most part. But if anything this PU appears to be the worst one Honda have brought in the three years since their return. I think they're going to have to show a major leap in the summer for Alonso to consider staying. Simply getting on top of their gremlins won't cut it and I suspect Alonso's going to want to see some concrete evidence that they can leapfrog the midfield for him to even consider staying. He sounds very much like a man at the end of his tether

I think you're right. He did say he expects to be competitive post summer break so that's probably not far off what he would want to see.(Leapfrogging the midfield and on the tails of RB).

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I'm sure he's watching Renault closely enough but I think McLaren are still the most likely. He seems to get on very well with Zak and Eric and they appear open to letting him do things outside F1.

They also seem to be heading in the right direction car wise still so if Honda can show something, anything really, during the summer and after the summer break especially then I think that's still the better bet at this stage.

But until business is conducted elsewhere he won't commit anywhere.

I agree with you for the most part. But if anything this PU appears to be the worst one Honda have brought in the three years since their return. I think they're going to have to show a major leap in the summer for Alonso to consider staying. Simply getting on top of their gremlins won't cut it and I suspect Alonso's going to want to see some concrete evidence that they can leapfrog the midfield for him to even consider staying. He sounds very much like a man at the end of his tether

“How they can overtake me?,” Alonso exclaimed after being passed by another rival. “(They are) 300 metres behind me, and they overtake me on the straight.

“I’ve never raced with less power in my life.”

“It was a frustrating race,” Alonso said. “The deficit in power and performance we had on the straights today was amazing.

alonso in talks with renault already about 2018....articles everywhere about this, and they brought it up on the broadcast yesterday. not surprising

Makes sense. Works team, plenty of money, on the ascendancy, no tier 1 driver in place, etc. Makes as good a destination as any for him to make his last stand in F1 and I like the nostalgia of ending his career with the team that he first rose to prominence on. Also I think Palmer has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he doesn't belong in F1.

alonso in talks with renault already about 2018....articles everywhere about this, and they brought it up on the broadcast yesterday. not surprising

Makes sense. Works team, plenty of money, on the ascendancy, no tier 1 driver in place, etc. Makes as good a destination as any for him to make his last stand in F1 and I like the nostalgia of ending his career with the team that he first rose to prominence on. Also I think Palmer has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he doesn't belong in F1.

I don't have a very good memory, but when teams like McLaren and Williams were winning a few years ago, were there a few other "top teams" (ferrari?) that were very poor and at the back of the pack? People act like this is it for McLaren and they will never recover. I think people might be a little short sighted. I think with Brawn and new management they will do what it takes to create more parity and exciting racing. I think they know that it sends a very poor message that if a team like Honda and McLaren or even Williams, etc... have no chance of winning (yes, Williams has some a long way, but lets be 100% honest, Merc will never allow a non-works team to outdue the works team) then no new manuf will be tempted to enter the series.

I still think the simple solution to that as well as keeping costs down would be to have a spec electric motor and recovery system and the teams be responsible for everything else (ICE, chassis, etc...). This would allow the resources to go to less costly areas and less variable to deal with. F1 already screwed up with the test/practicing limitations and token situation, which really screwed Honda (yes, Honda is also at fault, they have made mistakes along the way, but the F1 rules made it so a LOT Of those mistakes couldn't be corrected, or take a LONG time to correct). If F1 continues to get more and more complicated and hard to enter, its going to be really hard when manufactures start to leave F1 (teams and manufactures come and go) to bring other teams in.

supposedly Honda has a lot of the "issues" worked out with the motor, I am crossing my fingers that they have.

Also, I have heard that the first 2 races Alonso didn't finish where actually more McLarens fault than Honda (suspension failure and drive shaft failure). Is this true? and if so, McLaren has some of its own finger pointing to do.

I don't have a very good memory, but when teams like McLaren and Williams were winning a few years ago, were there a few other "top teams" (ferrari?) that were very poor and at the back of the pack? People act like this is it for McLaren and they will never recover. I think people might be a little short sighted.

Maybe it happened before my time, but I don't remember Ferrari ever being at the back of the pack - most certainly not "a few years ago", as you claim. 2014 was probably their worst season in a while, and they still managed to finish 4th (ahead of the McLaren running Mercedes engines, incidentally).

I get that you're trying to remain positive, but the fact is that there isn't any team which has sustained *this* level of poor performance and then still recovered to be a top team - maybe the 2020 regulations will help with parity, but by then all the top sponsors will be long gone.

I don't have a very good memory, but when teams like McLaren and Williams were winning a few years ago, were there a few other "top teams" (ferrari?) that were very poor and at the back of the pack? People act like this is it for McLaren and they will never recover. I think people might be a little short sighted. I think with Brawn and new management they will do what it takes to create more parity and exciting racing. I think they know that it sends a very poor message that if a team like Honda and McLaren or even Williams, etc... have no chance of winning (yes, Williams has some a long way, but lets be 100% honest, Merc will never allow a non-works team to outdue the works team) then no new manuf will be tempted to enter the series.

I still think the simple solution to that as well as keeping costs down would be to have a spec electric motor and recovery system and the teams be responsible for everything else (ICE, chassis, etc...). This would allow the resources to go to less costly areas and less variable to deal with. F1 already screwed up with the test/practicing limitations and token situation, which really screwed Honda (yes, Honda is also at fault, they have made mistakes along the way, but the F1 rules made it so a LOT Of those mistakes couldn't be corrected, or take a LONG time to correct). If F1 continues to get more and more complicated and hard to enter, its going to be really hard when manufactures start to leave F1 (teams and manufactures come and go) to bring other teams in.

supposedly Honda has a lot of the "issues" worked out with the motor, I am crossing my fingers that they have.

Also, I have heard that the first 2 races Alonso didn't finish where actually more McLarens fault than Honda (suspension failure and drive shaft failure). Is this true? and if so, McLaren has some of its own finger pointing to do.

The main issue is not just that McLaren are at the back, but the length of time they have been there and the fact there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. Honda are in arguably a worse position now than when they started, which doesn't inspire confidence for the future. I don't recall Ferrari ever (well, since early 80s) being in the dire straits McLaren now find themselves in and with a team with as strong a pedigree as McLaren it's both sad and concerning. Any team can have a bad year - look at Ferrari in 2014 (but even then they were only poor relative to Mercedes) - but the extent of McLaren's issues are alarming.

As regards the failures, one of the problems with the PU is that it's shaking the car to pieces, so it's possible everything is related. But it doesn't need a rocket scientist to see that the car is woefully underpowered and the PU is shockingly unreliable. Vandoorne didn't even manage to start on Sunday

The real question for me is - will Ferrari or Mercedes want Alonso in their lineups for 2018?

Ferrari - I personally think a bridge has been burnt here, and Ferrari would rather have Ricciardo or a solid #2 in their seat than Alonso after Raikkonen's imminent departure.

Mercedes - This is where it is interesting - in spite of the usual self-PR bs coming from Lewis, it is clear that he prefers a subservient team-mate (or at least someone he can beat more often than not). Will Mercedes be willing to risk upsetting the apple-cart to get Alonso in the 2nd seat, or keep Bottas assuming he can be a reliable #2? They have shown to be willing to readily implement team-orders when needed, and it looks likely that they will back Hamilton over Bottas to try and thwart Vettel's challenge.

If neither of these 2 seats are options for Alonso, it leaves him with just Renault as the team with any potential of challenging at the front. RBR will only take drivers from their own junior academy, and would likely not have Alonso even if he offered to drive for free.

Sad as it sounds, it is very likely that Fernando quits in 2019-2020 while still being a 2-time WDC.

The real question for me is - will Ferrari or Mercedes want Alonso in their lineups for 2018?

Ferrari - I personally think a bridge has been burnt here, and Ferrari would rather have Ricciardo or a solid #2 in their seat than Alonso after Raikkonen's imminent departure.

Mercedes - This is where it is interesting - in spite of the usual self-PR bs coming from Lewis, it is clear that he prefers a subservient team-mate (or at least someone he can beat more often than not). Will Mercedes be willing to risk upsetting the apple-cart to get Alonso in the 2nd seat, or keep Bottas assuming he can be a reliable #2? They have shown to be willing to readily implement team-orders when needed, and it looks likely that they will back Hamilton over Bottas to try and thwart Vettel's challenge.

If neither of these 2 seats are options for Alonso, it leaves him with just Renault as the team with any potential of challenging at the front. RBR will only take drivers from their own junior academy, and would likely not have Alonso even if he offered to drive for free.

Sad as it sounds, it is very likely that Fernando quits in 2019-2020 while still being a 2-time WDC.

The real question for me is - will Ferrari or Mercedes want Alonso in their lineups for 2018?

Ferrari - I personally think a bridge has been burnt here, and Ferrari would rather have Ricciardo or a solid #2 in their seat than Alonso after Raikkonen's imminent departure.

Mercedes - This is where it is interesting - in spite of the usual self-PR bs coming from Lewis, it is clear that he prefers a subservient team-mate (or at least someone he can beat more often than not). Will Mercedes be willing to risk upsetting the apple-cart to get Alonso in the 2nd seat, or keep Bottas assuming he can be a reliable #2? They have shown to be willing to readily implement team-orders when needed, and it looks likely that they will back Hamilton over Bottas to try and thwart Vettel's challenge.

If neither of these 2 seats are options for Alonso, it leaves him with just Renault as the team with any potential of challenging at the front. RBR will only take drivers from their own junior academy, and would likely not have Alonso even if he offered to drive for free.

Sad as it sounds, it is very likely that Fernando quits in 2019-2020 while still being a 2-time WDC.

Probably all teams would like Alonso as a driver, cos love him or not he is one of the best. They will then weigh up if it is worth the cost of 3 or 4 other good drivers.

Will a driver almost as good get the same results? for instance, is the team you are chasing a half second infront, and the following one half second behind. If so, many drivers will get the same result. If they are looking for tenths, Alonso is the man to get them.

Will it bring disruption to the team.Is he liable to upset or alienate a sponsor or supplier.

There are probably 2 teams that would defiantly benefit from him joining, these being Red Bull, who only use home grown, and Ferrari, who would have to eat humble pie in the media to take him, but risk not having the best score from the other car.

So in other words I see it as only Ferrari wanting him enough to go for it at the price and with the baggage.

i didn't realize that mclaren also said, while they have no immediate plans to enter indy car full time, they are open to the idea.

it's possible, imo very unlikely, but possible, he enjoys the 500 and someone ponies up enough money that he signs with a team in indy car for next year. one thing i am sure will shock him though, is the number of regular fans he will be exposed to in the garage/pit/motorhome area. remains to be seen how he responds to that