I am providing a goggle link to the former SRF post started by Roy Mcleod on 13 Jan. 2014. The last archived version is dated 18 March 2017 and its about the French 35 A and 35 S auto pistols and .32 french Long ammunition discussion. The old pictures are missing and links are broken unless saved as former posts on the Wayback machine link. However, more of these links work better than those same links found on the copied pages that follow. So if you are trying old links use this goggle format to attempt to see the old link-- some still work. There is a lot of great information stored within the many old comments. I will attempt to paste in a copy of pages 1-3; page 4 was not archived and is gone in this archived edition. Note: you see page 1 of 4, you have to click on each page at the bottom right hand corner to advance to the next page in the Wayback link. I have also found that while this link works on the library computer and the neighbors new mac, it does not open with my 2003 old mac. So you need an up to date computer to see this goggle link---all should be able to see the copied pagesI added below

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 652
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Age: 83
Photos
Attachment:
015.JPG
015.JPG [ 179.73 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]
Attachment:
017.JPG
017.JPG [ 180.68 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]
Attachment:
019.JPG
019.JPG [ 150.93 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]
Attachment:
021.JPG
021.JPG [ 155.02 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]
I, have had, this pistol, in my collection for many years. I, have not been able to shoot it!! Armament and Military Manuals, say it is a little known and rarely seen pistol.
U.S Athorities, call it, the French.32 cal long. Armament manuals, describe Pistol, as M1935A Cal 7.65 mm long, cartridge length 7.45 inch (189 mm).
I, have been an avid handloader, for many years and have loaded, most all rifle and pistol cartridges. I, have handloaded, for several other .32 cal pistols in my collection.
At this point, I, would like, some HELP and advise, to be able to shoot this pistol.
With this special .32 long, I feel the only answer, is to locate some French Military ammo.
Again looking for help
Roy

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 3104
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 62
No French.32 long military ammo will have dead primers, even the late stuff from Nam. You got a pistol that sells around $ 300 and is a pain in the butt for ammo. It is $1-1.25 per round and the brass empty cartridge is thrown into the next field. So lots of luck getting the brass back.
see old posts:
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=132674&hilit=+.32+french+long

viewtopic.php?f=154&t=120850&hilit=+.32+french+long

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=114362&hilit=+.32+french+long

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=104685&hilit=+.32+french+long

Ammo that actually works see: BUT not all of this reformed stuff fires in all pistols, some of it just jams due to differences in chambers and extractors. So it may fire the first round and jam in one pistol and work fine in another. In some it just does not/ may not cycle. Welcome to the world of French firearms. http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx? ... 8&CAT=4451

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 652
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Age: 83
72 usmc wrote:
No French.32 long military ammo will have dead primers, even the late stuff from Nam. You got a pistol that sells around $ 300 and is a pain in the butt for ammo. It is $1-1.25 per round and the brass empty cartridge is thrown into the next field. So lots of luck getting the brass back.
see old posts:
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=132674&hilit=+.32+french+long

viewtopic.php?f=154&t=120850&hilit=+.32+french+long

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=114362&hilit=+.32+french+long

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=104685&hilit=+.32+french+long

Ammo that actually works see: BUT not all of this reformed stuff fires in all pistols, some of it just jams due to differences in chambers and extractors. So it may fire the first round and jam in one pistol and work fine in another. In some it just does not/ may not cycle. Welcome to the world of French firearms. http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx? ... 8&CAT=4451
72 usmc:
I, want to personally, thank you, for your wealth of knowledge. Just how many Members, have one of these .32 cal long pistols??
I, have found our Forum Members, have always, been there to HELP.
It, will take me some time to review and digest, all this Forum info!!
But again, I, want to thank you, for your time and interest!!
Roy

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 3104
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 62 Way to many of us have these French pistols. Well made, and geneally sold a few years ago for $150 so most got at least two. Cheep and prices do not climb due to a lack of ammo. I love these thin profile pistols. If i get them cheep under $200 I always buy. If Prvi or Fiocchi made .32 french long ammo they could sell it at $40 a box easy. Why they do not is beyond common sense.

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 652
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Age: 83
72 usmc wrote: Way to many of us have these French pistols. Well made, and geneally sold a few years ago for $150 so most got at least two. Cheep and prices do not climb due to a lack of ammo. I love these thin profile pistols. If i get them cheep under $200 I always buy. If Prvi or Fiocchi made .32 french long ammo they could sell it at $40 a box easy. Why they do not is beyond common snese.

Still "working" on making ammo work on my 1935S model pistol. Have about given up on using jacked bullets, latest batch of Sierra .308 bullets were really .306. Specs call for .311, so I got a Lee mold in that size, have all the bits to cast my first bullets. Just have one question, what ratio to tin, 10 to 1 or 20 to1. Been playing with the brass a little bit to, pulled the barrel and was fitting empty brass to chamber, seems the Buffalo brass may be just a smig too long if you line the extractor up. (It headspaces on the leading edge of the brass) Also the AOL may be about .010 too much, seemed to feed better when a little shorter.
Haven't had a chance to work on it lately, have been having heart issues and seeing docs, then I catch a cold to boot.
But I will be back at it when I feel better, determined to get the ammo sorted out.
Did see some pictures of original ammo, it was round nose lead, so maybe that is the ticket.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 67
I have the A & S Models. I found a box of very good condition ammo for it and fired half of a box without one failure. I also got a half box of loads made by Godfrey Reloading Supply (now extinct). Both models are fun to shoot and are pretty accurate at 8 yards. I am also a reloader and so far like garra I put making a round on the back burner. I am going to start on the project again. Too bad we can't get ammo for them.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 3104
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 62
GARRA I too underwent by-pass surgery. An adventure to say the least and then 12 weeks rehab. After the pipes are hooked up and 6-13 pills per day for just about everthing you are still not up too par after 8 weeks. And old guys 60+ always seemed to had problems with the prostrate and the cath tube, went home with the bag. Ya hoo #-o #-o #-o #-o #-o #-o #-4 days ICU then another 3-5 days in the regular hospital bed. What really hurts is when they present the bill.

Buffalo Arms Brass,
I wonder if different batches of Buffalo Arms brass made at different times vary in specs. I do know that the ammo fires fine in one pistol and the same batch jams on the second round in another. Maybe the ammo is out of specs per batch and they get sloppy. There is variation inthe base cuts. This is with Buffalo Arms loaded ammo. I have not yet got Ch4D dies or brass because I am waiting till you perfect a process. Way too much machining on the brass for me- no big buck tools. I will take some close up photos of original .32 long.
Photos will be of 3 cartridges: .32 French long original ammo gray cartridge - steel case 1948 (if the tip is lead??, its the hardest lead tip I have seen, harder than wheel weight lead), Buffalo arms in plastic box new brass case cartridge with hunting round tip and Old western Scrounger in yellow box with blue tape on cartridge. His rounds are made shorter FMJ

Contents [hide]
1 Description
2 See also
3 References
4 Notes
Description[edit]
The cartridge was developed for the United States and secretly produced in quantity too late for its intended use during World War I. The United States scrapped the weapons built for the cartridge between the world wars.[1] France adopted weapons for the cartridge and those weapons saw combat use; so the cartridge is best known by its French name.

The French military were introduced to the cartridge when the US demonstrated the Pedersen device after the end of World War I in Le Mans and again when John Browning exhibited a carbine in the same caliber in 1920. The US .30 Pedersen cartridge (Auto Pistol Ball Cartridge caliber .30 Model of 1918 or .30-18 Automatic) used in the Pedersen device was the basis for the 7.65×20mm Longue. The cartridge dimensions were identical, although Pedersen device cartridges were loaded with a slightly heavier 80 grains (5.2 g) bullet which achieved a velocity of 1,300 feet (400 m) per second in the longer barrel of M1903 Springfield rifles.[1]

Remington Arms produced 65 million cartridges for the Pedersen device between 1918 and 1920.[1] French 7.65×20mm Longue ammunition was manufactured in quantity from approximately 1935 to 1960.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 3104
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 62
Thanks, But I got got one off ebay today after a search. Thanks for the info. :thumb: So when it arrives I can scan for those that want a copy. The guy said its pages 34-41 then page 86??? must be a long one on other pistols too. We shall see; it is OP from publisher back issues. So ebay is only hope if you want the actual issue.

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Nevada
Age: 71
Cardo club, I'm in that for sure. My original by pass in 95, times 4. Now they say I have 2 blocked ones and a flaky valve. They don't want to crack my chest, they can replace the valve via the femoral artery.
I figured out the pistol likes the rim diameter around .332, problems making your own brass is you have the cut the extractor, place the 60 degree angle in the front portion of it and reduce the thickness of the rim.
Buffalo makes them in batches, they are out with another shipment coming in, so quality varies.

So M1950 what dies, brass, primers, and powder brand do you use and what load. What is your procedure to get this round reloaded. What brand dies and how do you set it up; can you please provide a detailed methodology for us????? =P~ =P~ =P~ =P~ Does your ammo fire in most 1935 A & S pistols.
we need some feedback

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

I have two each of the 1935A and the 1935S. When I get into a particular gun, I tend to over do it, but in the end, I like to shoot them all.

I started with some 7.65 MAS brass. Probably from Grafs, but I don't recall off hand. A web search will probably turn some up. It was a little pricey, but as often as it gets shot, it'll last a long while.

I researched the round using "Cartridges of the World" and "Handloaders Guide". That's where I came up with using 7.62 Tokarov bullets. Both rounds were listed as having a bullet diameter of .309. Tokarov ammo is still cheap, in my opinion, so I didn't mind sacrificing some to experiment with. I have since went to Sierra 90 grain bullets.

From there I went to " Lee Reloading Manual" to check out some loads. I looked at 32 ACP and 32 colt. All of my sources indicated loads of anywhere from 1.1 grains of Bullseye (my preferred pistol powder, you may have other tastes) up to 2.2 grains and a little beyond. Since I wanted to shoot my guns and not launch pieces off them. I started in the middle, with a 1.5 grain load. My process is to load small batches of various loads at a time, then drive the 15 minutes to my club to test them out. I use .2 or .3 grain increments.

The brass was primed with CCI small pistol, but any brand probably would have done, though I would probably atay away from magnum primers.

I use Lee .32 ACP dies on my 3 position press, with I think the #7 shell holder. I crimp everything with the Lee factory taper crimp die, then it's off to the races. I start with one gun, and when I find a load that works (remember springs are of different ages and round counts) I load up some more and try the rest of the guns in succession. Sometimes different guns need an additional .1 or .2 grains, but this time I was able to settle on 2.2 of bullseye.

It may be different for your gun. You might have newer springs or really tired ones. You might prefer a lighter or heavier bullet, or you're partial to another powder. I found several loads listed for Unique, but I didn't try them.

I don't take the 35's out very often, since I only have about 40 or 50 shell cases for them, but they don't take long to load, and I keep 20 or 30 loaded for when I'm in the mood to exercise something different.

_________________
1SG, USA, Ret. Author of DEPLOYMENT, RECOVERY, OVERWATCH: The Mexican Border, and THE LAST COURIER.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 5468
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 66
Thank you do you do any modifications to the lee 32 ACP die set? Or just adjust them as if loading 32 ACP? do you use this carbide set :http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/618219 ... set-32-acp
Is it better to have a CH4D .32 French long set or just as easy to use the Lee set .32ACP. Any special cautions or set up instructions in using this set?

What Lee factory crimp die ? Is this a die for pistol ammunition. Any link to this crimp die? Thanks for your time and instructions.

.32 ACP bullet dia is .312 how do you get them tight at .309 for the French longue tip. Case length on French longue is .776 and .32 ACP is .680. How do you adjust for this ??

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2916
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 69
Man, this is really cool. I have all the components and a set of .32 acp dies but have put off reloading until I can set up the .32 long brass. I have a friend who has a small lathe and he helped me do the case rims for my 8X60R Kropatchek rifle from .348 Winchester brass. I am sure I can rework the rim and extractor groove on the .32 long brass to make it work in my MAS Pistols. It would be the cheap way, just take time to set up the lathe and do each piece of brass.....hey, I'm retired and the weather outside sucks.... :thumb: It's good to be able to get help like this from one another.

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Nevada
Age: 71
One little problem I encounter was when chucking the brass case in the lathe was the case is soft, so it doesn't grip good and will pull out of the jaws. I had to make an arbor for the case, nothing more that a round rod the same ID as the case so it slips in pretty snug, I also drilled the end and put a remains of a drill bit to act as a guide so the rim area attempted to center via the primer pocket hole. Now when you clamp her down it doesn't crush and stays tight.
The more you try to make your own, the more the 44 cents a pop from Buffalo seems like a great deal.

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 846
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Age: 85
I, am sure, almost every Member on the forum, has one of those S O B French pistols!
Anyway, thanks everyone, as I, said before, here is a wealth of knowledge , At my age, I, do not handload anymore. I, sold all my handloading dies on the forum.
So, to shoot this pistol, I, will look to Military or manufactured ammo. I, see on the Forum, that (candyman) Lee, also has one of these pistols.
I, talk with him fairly regularly and I, will ask him just what he, has done to shoot his.
Again thanks everyone
Roy

Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:22 pm
Posts: 2675
Location: Tennessee
Age: 63
I was able to use .32 ACP in my French pistol.
Only real problem, and it was more of a problem than I'd thought it would be, was that the larger diameter rim caused the loaded chamber indicator to wallow out its pivot pin hole in the slide, leaving a raised bump and loose fitting pin.

The pistol fed perfectly so long as I put only six rounds in the magazine and oriented the cartridges as far forwards as possible.

Later on I ran across an article on converting these to .32 ACP by making a chamber adapter by cutting a rin from the neck of a steel .30 Carbine casing. I have a couple of these steel casings here some where, but I'd given the pistol to a friend long before that.
The adapter was secured in the same manner as the 7.82/.30-06 adapters, by coating with locktite and firing a round to expand the cylindrical ring into place.

In the article they suggested turning down the rim of the .32 ACP case and either using a hot load or cutting a coil or so from the recoil spring to prevent short stroking. Mine functioned with no problems using factory loads and un altered spring.
I think they also altered a magazine to better fit the shorter cartridge.

Making cases from .32 S&W Long cases is the much better approach. Since I now own a .32 S&W I frame I have plenty of empty cases to play with. If I ran across another of these French pistols I'd now know exactly how to deal with the ammo problems.

PS
Using .32 ACP ammo my pistol printed tight groups but the groups centered far to the left even at close range. I've found most auto loaders group to the left for me after a hand injury altered my grip, but no where near that far off. Never had this problem with revolvers.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 5468
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 66 So I gave in and ordered a CH4D .32 French Longue ( Mas) 7.65 pistol die set and RCBS special .32 french long shell holder and with shipping it came to $127
But at least I got the correct die. I found out a RCBS 22 hornet shell holder fits the diameter of the French long case, but has to much up/down space. Wobbles in the RCBS shell holder. Rim thickness differences exist, so I would need to add a shim to the shell holder- what a joke. Hence, I ordered the correct goodies and paid top buck at Buffalo Arms. Everthing is in stock,---- no run on $ 94 die sets

So now I have to figure out how to unload 700 original rounds with dead primers and replace the primers with berdan (if I can find some ) or convert them to boxer and then reload the steel cartridges. My brass converted .32 S&W should be easy. Now that I got a die set, just watch Prvi come out with some factory .32 French long ammo.

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Nevada
Age: 71
I have still been at it, trying to make ammo that I was happy with. Fed up with all the commercial bullets as far as diameter, I bit the bullet so to speak and got a Lee mold in .311 RN 100 gn weight. Tried my first time casting, had accumulated all the items, and was very pleased with my results. Ran them trough the sizing/lubrication Lyman set up and ended up with about 130 greasy bullets sized to .311. I had to re-bell the mouths of the cases, used a modified Lee flaring die, which had to be shortened and the smallest tip shorten as it was bottoming out in the case. Worked pretty good. inserted the bullet using a 32 ACP seating die set to an AOL of 1.137 over 3.1 gn of Unique. The next step seemed to make a big difference. I ran the cartridges through a 32SW long crimping die, that had been shortened to accommodate the shorter case size. I ended up with a nice roll crimp just at the top grooves for the lubrication. Made for a nice smooth transition area at that junction of the mouth of the case. I loaded up 8 rounds in a magazine and they cycle through perfectly. Yahoo, finally got something that seemed to work good, at least so far. Finished up with doing all 100 rounds I have for this pistol. It snowed last night so no trying it out yet to see how they shoot.

Another note on the shell holders, I am using a RCBS #12, I am experiencing the same wobble issues as previously mentioned. Has anyone discovered the best shell holder for this Buffalo made brass, has anyone tried the C&H holder. I used theirs for my Carcano brass and it solved all the issues.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2916
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 69
CH should be able to help you out. Been awhile since I ordered from them...got their Nambu Type 14 dies and shell holder...worked great. Dave is the owner and he usually works evenings. I would call them and ask questions before ordering. JMO :thumb:

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 5468
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 66
Here is the CH4D set and the RCBS special order shell holder that works good. Dies are marked "7.65 Mannlicher" ????? BUT WORK. See photos of the 7.65 special order RCBS shell holder #57170. I am not sure what size CH4D uses. I went with what works. RCBS's $20 shell holder 57170. =D> :thumb:
RCBS # 12 ( 22 Hornet) $7 fits the diameter of the cartridge, but not the rim thickness up and down space. There is about a .035-.037 gap between a cartridge and the holder due to rim thickness difference of the 22 Hornet vs the .32 French Longue. Some also use the Lee # 7 shell holder that fits the M1 carbine and the .32 ACP. Maybe all three could work if some brass has different rim thickness. But RCBS 7.65 fits my 700 original cartridges just fine.

Image

Image
Image

Image
Image
Image

The correct RCBS special order shell holder:
Image
Image
A nice correct fit on the original cartridge:
Image

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2916
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 69
72 usmc very good pics and the beginning of a great "sticky" on loading for the French MAS 1935A & B pistol in the 7.65 French Long cartridge. Would you continue the picture process for completely making a round? Thanks!

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 5469
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 66
I am working on converting 700 dead, original, French .32 steel cartridges to good ammo by replacing the primers with boxer or berdan. I am unsure how this will turn out. I got to see primer hole size and depth, if I can find correct berdan primers, what the correct size actually is, or if I can somehow fit a Boxer small pistol primer into each case. I am not even sure if the boxer primer is larger or smaller than the primer pocket on the original ammo. This effort I will record as I proceed.
A problem with purchased loaded Brass I have observed: I have observed that my unfired Old Western Scrounger .32 French longue and my Buffalo Arms .32 French longue brass has different rim thickness and different extractor side cuts than an original French pistol round. So I will hand fit each brass type (OWS vs Buffalo) to see what actually fits my perfect fit for an original military shell holder (RCBS 7.65 special order shell holder) , then see how they each fit the RCBS 12 and Lee 7 shell holder?? The differences in the rim thickness and the side extractor cuts are factors in why some ammo fires Ok in one pistol, but jams in another. They may not fit my special order RCBS 7.65 shell holder. When they convert this brass, each set up to the cutter blade is slightly different and they do not match the curvature of an original cartridge. I do not think they attempt to match the original ammo base too well. All of my steel cases are consistent and fit the RCBS 7.65 special order shell holder, just perfect. It appears, that I have to go through my different boxes of loaded ammo from different sources in order to see the possible expected range in variation on the .32 brass converted cartridges. I might have to order some Starline to see how that looks & fits. Rim thickness is really different between the OWS brass and the Buffalo Arms Brass. I will also have to check cartridge length. I am unsure why it is so varied???

Image

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Nevada
Age: 71
Since I have tried to make my own from 32 SW long I would the expect the differences to be in set up and the sharpness of the cutting tools. The rim of the 32 SW brass is far thicker than what is needed, so when the extractor cut is made you also have to thin the rim from the base side. The rim diameter also has to be reduced to the .332 range in order to fit properly. Looking forward to seeing what shell holder works best on the Buffalo offering, mine wobble like crazy and I have to guide them into the mouth of the dies in order not to bend the brass.

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:58 pm
Posts: 3094
Location: Pinson Alabama
Age: 66
Gunbuff and Guys: It was the diameter of the rim that was the problem, as when 32 acp was fired in the 35 S. Not so much the thickness, which would still be a problem with feeding and extracting. It was the chamber indicator that was damaged, and then the firing pin would pop out due to the Firing Pin Retainer being sheared off...This was covered in the book, If I recall correctly!

Dale

_________________
If those little Sweethearts won't face German bullets, then they'll face French ones!
George McReady in Paths of Glory 1955

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:58 pm
Posts: 3094
Location: Pinson Alabama
Age: 66
I have purchased several Mle 1935 S pistols that had this problem--cheap! The sellers could not keep the firing pins in the slides....I bought a bunch of parts 20 years ago, and they did come in handy!!

Dale

_________________
If those little Sweethearts won't face German bullets, then they'll face French ones!
George McReady in Paths of Glory 1955

I just sent a plea to Starline Brass to consider adding the MAS 7.65 Long brass cases to their long line of calibers. We should start getting new Starline brass for the MAS 7.65 Long cartridge anytime now...... just don't hold your breath. :^o

No hand clapping necessary.... ...I said clapping not slapping. I am sure Starline has had more than one plea for the MAS brass.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 5469
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 66
Guys, It would be much better if Prvi made .32 french long :thumb: and we can just reload their manufactured brass. Email Prvi and request .32 French long. Please note that Midway reviews of Starline brass suggest irregular cuts in the cases. http://www.prvipartizan.com/contact.php

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Nevada
Age: 71
Finall y had a chance to try out my latest reload effort for this caliber. I ended up casting my own bullets with a Lee mold. 100 gn@.311. Loaded up a bunch and tried them out, I used 3.1 gn Unique with an AOL of 1.137. Well they worked!!!! It cycled perfectly,ejected with no problem, ran through the magazine as fast as I could pull the trigger. FINALLY!!!

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:16 pm
Posts: 635
Location: Florida
Age: 52
Quote:
I, have had, this pistol, in my collection for many years. I, have not been able to shoot it!! Armament and Military Manuals, say it is a little known and rarely seen pistol.
U.S Athorities, call it, the French.32 cal long. Armament manuals, describe Pistol, as M1935A Cal 7.65 mm long, cartridge length 7.45 inch (189 mm).
I, have been an avid handloader, for many years and have loaded, most all rifle and pistol cartridges. I, have handloaded, for several other .32 cal pistols in my collection.
At this point, I, would like, some HELP and advise, to be able to shoot this pistol.
With this special .32 long, I feel the only answer, is to locate some French Military ammo.
Again looking for help
Roy

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:24 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Nevada
Age: 71
The Lee mold number is 311-100 2r for a 2 cavity unit. I ended up using the Buffalo brass since I had some from my previous attempts. I think using a full .311 size bullet made the difference for me, everything else I tried was just a bit too small and didn't seal properly or had problems crimping to the mouth of the case size since I was using 32 ACP dies. I also modified my own crimping die just for this pistol. It has been a PIA, but getting the ammo to wqrk is part of the alure in collecting.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 5469
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 66
New info on measurements on .32 french long made brass and original cartridge:
see viewtopic.php?f=91&t=147658
Quote:
Okay, I finally received some Old Western Scrounger, Buffalo Arms, and Original French 7.65mm brass. The OWS and BA brass used 32 S&W long to make their 7.65mm longue cases. Here are some of my findings.

I shall convert the metric data KELT has supplied into English at a later date. I trust it is dependable in any case.

The groove length and groove angle were measured by an optical comparator. The other dimension were done using Mitutoyo ratchet micrometers with a .0001" vernier and Mitutoyo dial calipers with a .001" readout that were independently professionally calibrated this year. Mitutoyo measuring equipment is also well accepted in the machining trade and is known for its good quality.

As you can see Buffalo Arms and Old Western Scrounger didn't exactly reproduce the 7.65mm longue round. The groove diameters should be within .001 of the original and the groove widths should be within .005. The groove angle should be within 1 degree of the original as well. As for case length, I would give set the tolerance at plus or minus .002. These are not hard to obtain tolerances in any professional machine shop using a 5C collet with a stop. If you were an amateur with a 3 or 4 jaw chuck, this would be hard to do.

I have more shell cases coming in this week to give me more data. Also, I will be getting some Starline and PRVI brass in 32 S&W long to compare as well. Hopefully PRVI will have a generous rim thickness to work with.

Once I get some brass and more data, I hope to construct a high speed steel bit to cut the groove for the extractor within the tolerances I stated. I'll go on the high side for groove width. I'll be cutting the cases down to size with a counter-bore cutting tool set up in a drill press with a removable pilot I'll custom make for this job to fit the case within .002. It will be clamped to a V-Block clamp to the table after I indicate the table in within .001 of being perpendicular to the counterbore tool. I'll then set the depth within .002 with screws on the drill press.

The hard part looks to be making a good HSS bit to cut the groove in one plunge. I'll have to ask for some help on a surface grinder to get the angle cut just right and then hand grind the flat and side to the dimensions desired. I might have the flat surface ground too. Cutting the rim diameter will be a separate operation done first.

I hope this answers some question we all have had with these two suppliers. Buffalo Arms is the only one still making this brass and I would likely estimate their batches differ from each other, unless they made a custom HSS bit to cut the groove. I'll find out once I get more brass from them from people on this forum.

Best Regards,

Mark

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:10 am
Posts: 1625
Location: OHIO
Age: 53
I think I'll just modify 32 S&W long brass on my own and skip Buffalo Arms. Odds are I'll have some brass to work on next week. If I get this cutter right, it won't be too hard to modify. I can see where rim diameter would be a problem and that is an incredibly easy one to fix. Thanks for the insight on that one VONMAZUR. As for the groove and such, I hope to get it within some industry standard tolerance I mentioned in my post. I only have a M1935A to test fire these cases with and no dies yet. All good things take time.

Right now I'm working on a home made black powder compressor using all copper, brass, or aluminum components. Hope to turn some brass 3/8 by 16 screws with a button die tomorrow. You just can't buy those at Lowes I found out. Wish me luck getting that puppy perpendicular on the first try.

Once I get some brass in I intend to measure it and see how consistent it is. I'll likely make a plug that's fits inside the case that's within .002 of the inside diameter to let the collect not squeeze too much on the brass. Hopefully, the manufacturer made the space from the case mouth to the inside of the primer pocket where the plug will rest on very consistent. If not, I'll have to trim them myself before I machine them. I'm guessing they are consistent though.

If anybody wants to donate some 32S&W long brass for R&D purposes, I'm accepting donations. Right now I'm scoping out some items on auction, so I'm hoarding my money for those first. Daddy is bored and needs a new toy.

Hang in there, this problem will be fixed.

BTW, you have to know how many M1935 pistols were imported into the USA to give Starline and PRVI an idea of the market for this product is. I would guess this number is incredibly low as compared to cartridges for other pistols. This is likely why you don't have brass. It just isn't cost effective to make brass for a very small market. I don't think that many M1935 pistols were made to begin with as compared to others and those in the USA would be a subset of that number. A smarter bet would be finding someone who could modify existing 32S&W long cases better than the present manufacturer.

Time to look at more toys.

Best Regards,

Mark

BTW, saw several M1935S models go for over $300 this week. None were in great shape. I shall bide my time on getting one as a result.

Another post about .32 french long ammunition started by Gunbuff58 is called Ammo for Mle 1935A & S pistols
Unfortunately page 2 was not archived and only one Wayback capture is present and is dated 21 April 2015. So here is the text from the first page.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 67
I don't want to make this a long story so....yesterday I went to a OGCA show and spent my time looking for ammo for my mle. 1935A pistol. I missed the end of this one table and upon leaving the gun show I stopped to look at a rifle he had for the second time and there was a 1935S pistol laying on the corner of his table and there beside it was a box and half of 7.65 French Long ammo. He wouldn't sell the ammo without the pistol. The show was pretty much over and he told me he really needed money...I really needed that ammo, so we came to a deal. I got ammo, holster, 2 extra mags and the pistol for $130.00. I felt bad because the fellow was out of work so I bought all the 8mm Lebel ammo he had (120 rnds). I have some Lebel reloaded ammo but I thought this original stuff just might come in handy. Oh, did I say I also bought a M-16 Berthier carbine from him for $90.00. It is in pretty good shape and has a very nice bore. He seemed to be pretty happy about getting the money and I am happy about getting the 7.65 ammo so I can shoot my 1935A.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 4002
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 63 If it is original 32 long from the Viet Nam period. The primers are most likely dead on the pistol ammo. But worth it for display. You got some nice deals. My 1935 S cost $150 without holster.

Last friday I got a Berthier long rifle, mis matched for $125 and it headspaced and has a good bore. Five shot dog.

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 67
72 usmc wrote: If it is original 32 long from the Viet Nam period. The primers are most likely dead on the pistol ammo. But worth it for display. You got some nice deals. My 1935 S cost $150 without holster.

Last friday I got a Berthier long rifle, mis matched for $125 and it headspaced and has a good bore. Five shot dog.

Thanks for the info on the rounds. I will give them a try as soon as I can get to the range. I really wanted just one round to use as a dummy round to reform and get measurements for the rim of the base and extractor groove for the S&W 32 long brass.

You got a good deal on the Berthier. They are a fun gun to shoot. What type of load are you shooting? I have only loaded one load for my first M-16 Berthier Carbine. Herc 2400; 16grs (with filler) with a 205gr LRN. This load is pretty mild and I am sure I could get a little better accuracy if I tried other loads. Have you shot any of the factory Lebel rounds thru your rifle? Gunbuff

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 4002
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 63
My Berthier carbine 3 shot , a WW I bring back, is a non N marked carbine and I have shot Prvi Partizan 8x50R out of it but it is seems hot. Then I down reload the Prvi brass with With IMR 3031 with Serra175 grain .232 tips and 31.9 grains for a low power load. Works fine. I neck size the brass and mark the box with the rifle serial number and use it in that rifle only.

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 67
72 usmc wrote: If it is original 32 long from the Viet Nam period. The primers are most likely dead on the pistol ammo. But worth it for display. You got some nice deals. My 1935 S cost $150 without holster.

Last friday I got a Berthier long rifle, mis matched for $125 and it headspaced and has a good bore. Five shot dog.

Took the 1935A & S out today and fired the french ammo. The box is dated 1949....it works great...that ammo seems to be pretty hot for a 7.65 pistol. Now that I know both pistols functioned quite well I am going to go ahead and reform the .32 long brass and then work on finding a good load. I believe these pistols have the potential of being able to score an above average group.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 4002
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 63 Lucky man. Mine are all dead. That .32 also has to have some work done to the extractor groove on the case. ( Buffalo arms) turns them on a lathe to enlarge it.

Quote:
either round is fairly easily made from .32 S&W Long or .32 H&R Magnum cases by cutting off the rim, cutting an extractor groove, and trimming to .775".

It is not just a matter of resize and cutting down the shell. I also think they actually make .32French long cartridges Bertram or Starline, but Buffalo are out of stock till a new factory batch is made. If I remember S & B .32 SW longs have a larger rim and groove more like a 32 auto cartridge. I have not tried this, but after resize and shortening it may work without groove cutting. And the RCBS dies cost $175 . More than I paid for the pistol. Also, I believe the tips from 7.65x25 Tokarev can be used for reloading. The Polish Tokarev tins have from 15-40 percent splits on the poor brass cartridges so you can get these for 8 cents a round and pull the tips. I hope to get some actual .32 long shells and reload these with Tok tips. But I have no dies and I got to look into how to reload these with some other die. I have not done the research yet. How do you plan to reload ? if you figure it out let me know. No lathe & no die??????

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:00 pm
Posts: 1444
Location: Oregon, USA
Age: 47
For the auto pistol, 4-D makes dies that are half as much as rcbs, however I use my 32 S&W lee sizing die to re-size, and seater to seat, The sizer puts the ID at around .307 or .306 which is about right for .308 bullets, I don't use an expander, don't seem to need it. I do use the stock roll crimp a bit into the cannelure, or into the bullet to keep it from driving back into the case when feeding, but not enough to prevent it from seating on the case mouth.

I'm actually using 110 grain carbine bullets now, my pistol likes them a bit better with a lighter load of powder than a light bullet hotter.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 4002
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 63
Thanks Frank, what brass do you use? Do you know if Starline is making brass. it appears the Bertrand Brass is somewhat out of spec as per comments on the Midway listing. What shell holder and its number do you use.

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 67
Good info guys. Let me jump in here with you. I got half a box of re-worked and reloaded Starr .32 long ammo. I shot it the other day and it cycles fine. I am using it and the original French 7.65 long to rework and remove the required dia. of the base and different groove. I have a 100 rounds of .32 S&W long to start with. I bought a set of Lee .32 (7.65) Auto dies. The Lee shell holder is #7B. If I can't get the Lee die set to work I know Charlie at CH4D die company which is only 30 minutes from here, and he, I am sure will help me out. He has done some good things for me in the past. I think the complete French 7.65 long die set is around $84.00. I bought my Lee die set for a little over 20 bucks.

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Newark, Ohio
Age: 67
To add a few more thoughts. I have a friend who has a lathe and we are going to prepare the 100 .32 long brass soon. I have some 93 gr round nose lead rounds made by Tommy T and then I am going to use .32 S&W Long loading data out of my Speer Reloading Manual to start with. Haven't figured out what powder to use but I know that Vihtavouri N310 with 1.3 grs worked well in my Walther .32 Long GSP Expert.

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:00 pm
Posts: 1444
Location: Oregon, USA
Age: 47
I'm using re-formed 32 S&W brass that I got loaded from either buffalo or gad, or it might have been new reformed brass fro buffalo, I can't remember. I'm using a hornady #22 shell holder for 30 carbine/32 acp but it seems to work ok for me.

I'm using 2.9 grains bullseye and the 110 bullet which is higher than I normally would have gone, but no pressure signs in my gun and recoil was really light, short stroking till I went to 2.9, I'd start with 2.3 and work my way up for sure.

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 4002
Location: Meno Falls Wi
Age: 63
Have you found the S&W cartridges to blow out at the rear due to the groove being cut to deep thinning the cartridge? Have you found that the back of the cartridge to be out of specs so that you need two different shell holders on the Buffalo brass?? Does you ejector tear up the brass rim??
Frank do you use the CH 4D die set in your reloading? How many dies come with the pistol set. Sorry I have never reloaded for pistols, so a new boot question. Tok ammo is only 8 cents a round. This French stuff is expensive.

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old Marine. If he is too old to fight, he'll just shoot you.

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:00 pm
Posts: 1444
Location: Oregon, USA
Age: 47
I'm using 32 S&W dies, as I described above, not using the 4D dies, not sure how many are in the set.

Frank

72 usmc wrote:
Have you found the S&W cartridges to blow out at the rear due to the groove being cut to deep thinning the cartridge? Have you found that the back of the cartridge to be out of specs so that you need two different shell holders on the Buffalo brass?? Does you ejector tear up the brass rim??
Frank do you use the CH 4D die set in your reloading? How many dies come with the pistol set. Sorry I have never reloaded for pistols, so a new boot question. Tok ammo is only 8 cents a round. This French stuff is expensive.

This is a great read>
Mike Venturino has an article in an old issue of Handloader magazine, February 2011, Number 270, "Hardballs and Oddballs" in which he describes reloading for the 7.65 MAS (.32 french long ammo) for his own French 1935A.

Mike Venturino also has a chapter on reloading the .32 French Long in his 2014 book, SHOOTING WORLD WAR II SMALL ARMS. This is published by Wolf Pub Co. Cost was $54.
See Venturino 2014:PP. 255-257. He uses RCBS .32 Auto dies specially adjusted for the longer .32 long cartridge and uses Buffalo Arm's Starline .32 S&W modified brass with the special RCBS .32 French long shell holder. He uses RCBS mold 32-84-RN to make 81 grain .311 bullets. Powder is Titegroup with 3 grains with CCI small pistol primers. Max cartridge length is listed at 1.194 inches. He also has some interesting chapters on reloading the 8mm Nambu, 7.62x25 Tokarov and British Webley Enfield No. 2 revolver .380-200

To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

I expect to have a bench top lathe working in my garage by this spring, so I will be making 7.65mm French cases hopefully. I think I can make some fixturing for a four jawed chuck since having a lathe with a 5c collet is pricy, real pricy.

The 7,65 long cartridge is not a mild load, in the military loading, the 90gr bullet leaves the barrel at 340M/s.
The maximum safe working pressure in the PA 35A, PA35S SMG MAS 38 is 1650bars or 23.931Psi.

72 usmc

My guess there are boxes of this stuff sitting in France. Very hard to find in the US.
Thanks for the diagram Kelt. =D>

burkefj

That explains why I'm using more powder in my rounds and a heavier bullet to get the pistol to function, and without pressure signs.

kelt wrote:
The 7,65 long cartridge is not a mild load, in the military loading, the 90gr bullet leaves the barrel at 340M/s.
The maximum safe working pressure in the PA 35A, PA35S SMG MAS 38 is 1650bars or 23.931Psi.

TheWizard

If anyone would like a pdf file of the French drawing for the 7,65 mm Longs round, case (both steel and brass) and bullet contact me.

jonnyc

Went to a big cartridge collector show 2 weeks ago and I got lucky. I got a big bag of 265 rounds of 7.62 Long ammo, including two full boxes. The guy said that he had been shooting it, so I took the plunge. Wasn't cheap, but I have paid lots more for ammo. Took the first baggie of 46 "VE 1945" rounds to the range today to run through my M1935A. Well, you guessed it, they ran through just fine.....every time I racked the slide. To be fair, 4 did go bang. Doesn't seem fair to me, but now I have to remember how to take the pistol apart to clean the corrosive residue out.
Plenty more to try next week!
I spoke with a Prvi Partizan rep a few weeks ago and explained to him how advantageous it would be for them to produce the round. I won't hold my breath, but we'll see.

72 usmc

I wish some one from Prvi would read this and realize that that ammo would sell. Lots of us have pistols we can not shoot. I got 750 rounds and I am lucky if about 1 in ten fire.

Will Add Post Link In Another Post

You are lucky your ammo actually fired. Was it steel case or brass?

jonnyc

Steel case. If you look again, you'll see that only 4 of 46 actually went bang. All the others just cycled by hand.

MVolkJ

Image Missing

I love this little pistol, but $1.25 a round is insane. Buffalo Arms makes loaded ammo, but that's the cost...

Seriously, Prvi needs to load this. At least make the brass!

vonmazur

Guys: I have talked to them, they still make this for other markets, just that they have no idea how many of these pistols are in the US. I have explained to them that this stuff has a market here...

OK, you French reloaders. So I got 750 rounds ($50) of French .32 long yesterday. Most appear to be 1947 dated. If I find out the primers are dead, can I pull the tips and replace the primer??? Not sure if I got taken on this deal or not. What primer was used on 1947 ammo?? What size pistol primers can be used and is it boxer primed? Who makes a die set for this odd caliber?
It may actually fire, but it is steel case ammo with a dark grey tip. Can these cases be reloaded after being fired?

Did lee ever make an old boxed reloading kit "Lee loader" for the French long.

Zeliard have you ever reloaded the original steel case french Long cases? What primer did you use? Can the case be drilled out so some sort of small pistol boxer primer will work??? I got 750 steel cases most with dead primers.

Alexei2

I had two boxes of 1950 produced French 7.65mm Long. Not one fired. The ironic thing is, the primers are mercuric, which supposedly aided in long term stability. Maybe it was just stored improperly ?

Zeliard

Sorry 72 USMC, don't have anything in that caliber.

Rapidrob

The cartridge is not a magnum by any stretch. You could remove the "dead primers by using a dowel and water over a hole in a table of piece of wood,metal what ever. An end-mill bit of the right size for the primer you want to use would open up the primer pocket. As long as the new primer is a friction fit as you seat it you should be fine.
Steel cases do not like to be re sized too many times and will split. I've only been able to get 3-4 reloads out of them before they go south.
If you shoot cast bullets, you may be able to "thumb-seat" the bullet and get more reloads out of the cases.The cases will eventually stick in the cylinder as they expand when fired.

spqrzilla

Rob, the 7.65 MAS pistol / .32 French Long is chambered in the 1935A / 1935S semi-auto pistol. As well as an obscure French SMG.

72 usmc

So anyone got some great links for the process to convert Berdan prime to boxer primer on pistol ammo. How big should the flash center hole be for a small pistol primer to replace the original Primer. I got a drill press, but no metal lathe. So am going to pull the tips, save the powder, drill out the anvil ( what size hole?), and replace the original primer with a small boxer pistol primer. I am not sure of the size hole to drill, maybe the same size as found on a .32 acp pistol case??? All new to me. I will have to see what size end-mill bit to use with the new small pistol primers. Any ideas on what brand primer might match certain end mill bit size??? May be the original primer is the same size as a boxer small pistol primer

Anyone convert military pisto lberdan cartridges to boxer??? Need some links and suggestions.
I will be laid off this winter so I can fiddle with 750 rounds and at least get one shot out of each case.

RWS is German, If the name doesn't ring a bell as is, the full name won't either (Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff-Fabriken),they may not be distributed in the USA, they are part of the RUAG group with Rotweill.

7,65 long steel cases don't stand well to reloading, they split at the 2nd or 3rd shot, a lot of work for little return (beside hot gases in the wrong direction).

The hole size in my boxer type 7,85 Long cases are 1,7 to 1,8 mm, I use an old RCBS set, it has the small decapping pin (0.06").