Ti Malice wrote:While self-selection probably explains some of the difference, I doubt that it explains the entirety or even the majority of Penn's dominating advantage over UVA in BigLaw+FedClerk placement. Over the last two classes, Penn has averaged 72.1% placement and UVA has averaged 54.9% placement in BigLaw+FedClerk. Taking into consideration the high percentage of students that supreme rankings harlot UVA has had to hire to inflate its employment numbers above near-basement level in the T14 (15.9% on average over the last two classes) versus the small percentage for Penn (2.1%), it appears pretty likely that below-median is a much scarier place to be at UVA than at Penn.

Especially since your debt won't be accruing interest -- and will actually be deflating in value -- I would easily take Penn here.

Visited UVA for ASW, did not apply to/visit Penn. I find the above very compelling, namely that being below median at UVA basically seemed to me like hell on earth. Idk if it's the same situation at Penn.

Eh, below median at UVA isn't "hell on earth." Those between the 33rd and 50th percentiles are usually either going to a secondary market (mostly Biglaw) or NYC (if you're lucky/likeable). But yes, some of them are missing. And in the bottom third, you are in more trouble.

Because UVA's OCI is structured differently from Penn's, it makes UVA the more high-risk/high-reward play. If you do finish top quarter/top third, you'll get a bunch a whole bunch of interviews because of the preselecting that's unique to UVA. Comparatively, students between top ten and top quarter do really well at UVA compared to their peers because OCI is structured in their favor. This gives you a better chance at, say, V50.

The downside, of course, is that the middle third is somewhat risky and the bottom third is, for all intents and purposes, locked out of Biglaw. So yes, Penn is the safer play. Up to you if the safety is worth $55k.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Eh, below median at UVA isn't "hell on earth." Those between the 33rd and 50th percentiles are usually either going to a secondary market (mostly Biglaw) or NYC (if you're lucky/likeable). But yes, some of them are missing. And in the bottom third, you are in more trouble.

Because UVA's OCI is structured differently from Penn's, it makes UVA the more high-risk/high-reward play. If you do finish top quarter/top third, you'll get a bunch a whole bunch of interviews because of the preselecting that's unique to UVA. Comparatively, students between top ten and top quarter do really well at UVA compared to their peers because OCI is structured in their favor. This gives you a better chance at, say, V50.

The downside, of course, is that the middle third is somewhat risky and the bottom third is, for all intents and purposes, locked out of Biglaw. So yes, Penn is the safer play. Up to you if the safety is worth $55k.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Eh, below median at UVA isn't "hell on earth." Those between the 33rd and 50th percentiles are usually either going to a secondary market (mostly Biglaw) or NYC (if you're lucky/likeable). But yes, some of them are missing. And in the bottom third, you are in more trouble.

Because UVA's OCI is structured differently from Penn's, it makes UVA the more high-risk/high-reward play. If you do finish top quarter/top third, you'll get a bunch a whole bunch of interviews because of the preselecting that's unique to UVA. Comparatively, students between top ten and top quarter do really well at UVA compared to their peers because OCI is structured in their favor. This gives you a better chance at, say, V50.

The downside, of course, is that the middle third is somewhat risky and the bottom third is, for all intents and purposes, locked out of Biglaw. So yes, Penn is the safer play. Up to you if the safety is worth $55k.

How is the reward any better than Penn?

His point is that the way the two schools do OCI, UVA gives a big reward to top earners while Penn more so or less spreads the wealth. Whether that is a factual distinction I have no idea.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Eh, below median at UVA isn't "hell on earth." Those between the 33rd and 50th percentiles are usually either going to a secondary market (mostly Biglaw) or NYC (if you're lucky/likeable). But yes, some of them are missing. And in the bottom third, you are in more trouble.

Because UVA's OCI is structured differently from Penn's, it makes UVA the more high-risk/high-reward play. If you do finish top quarter/top third, you'll get a bunch a whole bunch of interviews because of the preselecting that's unique to UVA. Comparatively, students between top ten and top quarter do really well at UVA compared to their peers because OCI is structured in their favor. This gives you a better chance at, say, V50.

The downside, of course, is that the middle third is somewhat risky and the bottom third is, for all intents and purposes, locked out of Biglaw. So yes, Penn is the safer play. Up to you if the safety is worth $55k.

How is the reward any better than Penn?

His point is that the way the two schools do OCI, UVA gives a big reward to top earners while Penn more so or less spreads the wealth. Whether that is a factual distinction I have no idea.

Yep. The higher reward is because of the preselect system, those between top ten and top quarter--those who would be considered at V50, but not locks--are rewarded because they are more likely to get interviews. While the offer rate for a particular firm at a given GPA may not be higher at UVA than at Penn, it's much more likely that a UVA applicant will have twenty V50 interviews. For applicants who are considered but not locks, more interviews means more jobs.

The higher risk is that it makes it tougher for median and slightly below median students to even get a table scrap at OCI. These students, who might have had a chance to impress a decent firm at OCI, won't even get the time of day from any of the major players. These students would benefit much more under the lottery system, which removes the artificial weighting in favor of the top third.

Penn places better than UVa in NYC. But $45,000 is a lot of money, no matter whose it is. For that reason, I'd take UVa. But obviously both are perfectly reasonable choices.

I wouldn't discount that the settings for these two schools could hardly be more different--the urban heart of a major city vs. a small, somewhat isolated college town. I know TLS tends to think quality of life is irrelevant to choosing a law school, but don't forget this is three full years in the prime of your life. If you're someone who would be significantly more happy in one of those settings vs. the other, I think that's something to very seriously consider.