So to pray on in the face of outrageous suffering, it seems to me, is at heart a choice of courage and hope, even if the prayers sound like blasphemies to observers.

So we shout, “No, no—I will not reject God! But no, no, no—neither will I deny my questions either! No, I will not cave in to despair, but no, neither will I be pacified with unsatisfying answers or superficial comfort. No!”

— Brian D. McLaren

...Welcome back

This is part II of a challenging topic, where we look to unravel the seeming paradox of an Almighty Holy God and the existence and prevalence of "evil".

That suffering, often seen as the consequence of evil (or even evil itself), is something God allows and uses for his purposes.

By way of an analogy consider the following scenario:

A soldier is shot and begs his comrade morphine to relieve the pain. His companion declines. In the face of this inaction, and in unremitting agony, the soldier shouts abuse at his companion, who, fully present and aware of the soldiers suffering, continues to withhold relief.

At this point we might feel justified in judging the companion as cruelly uncaring. After all, it is within his power to help and, if he truly cared, he would do as the soldier asked, surely. However, we would be making such a judgement based upon our limited perception of the situation; i.e. we don't know what the companion knows.

Source

You see the companion is a medic. As such he knows that the very pain agonising the soldier, also keeps him alive. If not for the pain, the horrific extent of the soldiers injuries would have him slipping into an unconscious coma of unlikely return.

Of course, as with all analogies, this one has a scope beyond which it begins to fall apart. The point being that God knows what we don't, and what may seem cruelly unnecessary to us has good reason to God; or, at the very least, is acceptable or necessary or unavoidable from his viewpoint (which, as points of view go, stands unmatched in its authority).

"...the critic of religion, scornful of any and every kind of theodicy, must be forced to face the question of the validity of making any kind of moral judgements on the basis of an atheistic world-view. Perhaps, as the critic faces this issue, he may begin to see that the problem of morality for atheism may well be a greater problem than the problem of evil for religion."

— Charles Cameron

What are Your Thoughts

Do you believe

That evil and suffering are strong arguments against a good and loving God

The real question, however, is not the problem posed in the existence of those 'evils' as defined by man; for men assign evil to much that God as likely wouldn't. However, what of that which is evil in God eyes? Why does he allow it to blight his creation, or to exist at all for that matter?

A good question. However, in asking it we will bring into quandary our very existence; why did God create us? For that which God identifies as evil (at least in Christian theology), is the very thing we are guilty of choosing to commit...

And there is the conundrum. For evil was not the result of God's choice to create, but of his creations choice to rebel. Therefore, though not His invention, it remains an impossibility without him, for it is His antithesis; and freewill the crossroads by which we decide to trust & obey the one or the other.

Yes, here we get to that amazing topic of free will (admit it, most of you knew I was going to raise this).

It's an odd concept, a creator offended by their creation; after all, why create something if you know it will offend you? Although most parents may relate to this :)

Man faces the problem of evil existentially and practically, since man is evil. The problem of evil is a thoroughly existential problem which confronts man at the very centre of his being. The problem of evil confronts man by the very fact of who he is - man the sinner

— Charles M. Cameron [A Biblical Approach to Theodicy - 1992]

Is it fair to give a creature free will and then punish the creature for not surrendering that will to you?

Such questions suggest an incomprehension of God's sovereignty

God is the supreme authority. He is not subject to any person, power or law which could be conceived as superior to or other than Himself.

Often, it seems, God, or his decisions, are put on trial by men. Yet what could be more ludicrous; the Absolutely Sovereign, all-powerful Creator, having his authority questioned by those whom, in their own words, are "insignificant specks" in the immense breadth of the natural universe.

To argue from the existence of evil to the non-existence of God, assumes the existence of an absolute moral law. But if there is such a law, there must be such a God, since only He could give us such a law. And if there is such a God to give us this law, then the argument itself is flawed, since you have had to assume Gods existence to argue that He doesn't exist. To invoke the existence of an absolute moral law without invoking the existence of an absolute moral law giver, cannot be done.

— Michael Ramsden

As Sovereign Creator, God has every right to demand of us whatever he will; and who are we to say he shouldn't or can't. That said, we have the free-will to say that very thing; it's just not good-sense to say it.

'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" [Romans 9:20]

All the people of the earth are nothing compared to Him. He does as He pleases among the people of heaven and among the people of earth. No one can stop Him or say to Him, 'What do you mean by doing these things?'

— King Nebuchadnezzar ~ Daniel 4:35

As with most things concerning God and his purposes, the reasons are likely far deeper than man can fully fathom. However, maybe aspects are far simpler then some care to admit - For example: God cannot do the intrinsically impossible.

If you choose to say, “God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,” you have not succeeded in saying anything about God:

...God cannot do the intrinsically impossible, not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when discussed with God in context. (C.S.Lewis)

It is intrinsically impossible to bestow free will without also unlocking the gate of wrong choice -- that leads to evil.

God chose to make man with no locked-in obedience mechanism that acts instinctively and without question. Instead, man stands upon this earth with the power to choose whether to move toward God or away from him.

In other words, implicit in 'free will' is the exclusion of any bound limitation from God; however, that exclusion does not extend to freedom from consequence. In fact, God's sovereignty over all is the ultimate supernatural law, and, like any law, there are consequence to both heeding and/or ignoring it; such is also true with any natural law.

And this is where natural disaster and the like link into this discussion, for according to scripture they are, as a whole, the result of evils influence and the brokenness such evil manifests not just upon man, but his habitation also. We'll reserve this for another hub, a part 3 maybe.

What would it take to create a loving world void of evil? A world in which love is capable of meaningful expression implies a world in which there is choice. The words 'I love you' are meaningful because they are freely given. To be compelled to say them is to destroy their meaningfulness. So if we want to speak of a loving world, we must speak of one in which choices are exercised. And in such a world, there is also the possibility of choosing actions that are not loving, i.e. evil.

— Michael Ramsden

Therefore

Within God's will, man has immense freedom to speak, act and live their lives in spiritual safety.

Outside God's will, man has immense freedom to speak, act and live their lives in spiritual danger.

Both are free, and both will experience the fruit of their chosen course of freedom.

But only one group should expect their choices receive Gods blessing.

Free will, then, is a position of most serious responsibility, for it carries with it the reality of consequence.

Of those truths God desires man to live by, most pragmatic of all is that their choices will reap consequence; therefore, choose wisely, choose God.

Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, And let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth; Walk in the ways of your heart, And in the sight of your eyes; But know that for all these God will bring you into judgment.

— The Bible ~ Ecclesiastes 11:9

So, it would seem that in God's creative plan was incorporated a designed risk factor that allowed for things discordant to his will [even offensive], but not unprovided for...

An overarching plan, anticipatory & resolving of all contingencies

To quote again from Charles Cameron:

The message of reconciliation must be at the heart of any biblical approach to theodicy.

— Charles Cameron

Theodicy is not popular in a culture of complacency. When complacent modern man hears of the problem of evil, he shrugs apathetically―‘So what. I’m getting on well enough’.

Instead it gets dismissed as a problem for Christianity. Others confront Christians with such statements as, ‘You mean to say you believe in God. Look at the state of the world’. Then, complacently, they set about acquiring a lifestyle; little further thought given to the state of the world.

And there is the heart of the problem; so many failing to acknowledge that the greatest evil is the one they perpetuate upon themselves in failing to come to God humbly seeking reconciliation.

In God's mind this is the most serious evil and threat to His creation; all else pale in comparison. Therefore into this problem He has emptied Himself to provide a remedy.

A theodicy which treats the problem of evil with genuine seriousness will concern itself with bringing man into a real experience of the divine grace and mercy by which sin is forgiven and the sinner is restored to fellowship with God.

‘Having received forgiveness, man cannot possibly speak of God and the world in abstract categories. Theodicy has usually run around in the shallowness of the human endeavor to find an explanation where only justification and forgiveness can provide a perspective’.~ G. C. Berkouwer

And the means of our reconciliation: God taking upon himself the suffering due us!

The pain of God is a theme that pervades the Bible. God's agonizing over us, suffering with us and for us, is constantly reflected in the Bible. God is not passionless, incapable of sharing our delights and our pain.

I have never been asked questions about God and suffering when I am travelling in countries riddled with the realities of it. In fact, when I visit churches in parts of the world where they are faced daily with horrific affliction, I normally leave inspired. They trust God in everything, even when things are going well. When times are hard, they cling to God because they have already learned to trust Him. They have learned that God does not change, even when our circumstances have.

— Michael Ramsden - European director of RZIM

Rather, God is capable of suffering. Not due to any lack or need outside himself, but because of the extent of His compassion and desire for our eternal well-being; we, whose existence in the world is but a blink in time.

O Lord, what is man that you care for him, the son of man that you think of him? Man is like a breath; his days are like a fleeting shadow

Psalm 144:3-4

Suffering, then, serves to demonstrate the consequences of sin (whether or not it was our own sin) and is focal to Gods means in redeeming his creation.

Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word... It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees [Psalm 119: 67 & 71]

Watch out for Part 3...

Before you leave

Something for fellow Christians to chew on.

I want to bounce a thought off wiser heads. I'd like you all to critique it from several angles:

Does it align with biblical teaching?

Does it present logically?

What are the ramifications?

I have presented my thoughts more poetically nearer the end of this hub, but in a nutshell it expresses the following:

God, in giving angels and men free will, gave them almost unlimited choice. For if by 'Free-will' we mean freedom to choose, then that leads to a hugely diverse range of possibilities and therefore subsequent consequences.

Now, for God to have truly given free choice to man would require:

That God surrender any enforced control over the will of man

That God surrender any control over the immediate consequence of man's choices

Such surrender implies God divorced himself from any decision making process of his creation to which he was not invited, and, unless part of his plan, allowed only the natural consequences of those choices to play out without any 'special intervention'. This is a profound concept, that there is a place God, by His own design, would not intrude upon.*

* We read of another such place in scripture where God will not intrude: Hell. The sufferings represented by such a domain find definition not in deliberately placed tortures, but in the fact that it is a place devoid of God; where God has withdrawn his influence and power and presence. Such a place, absent of the source of good, has therefore become devoid of anything good. All that man cherishes as a blessing are absent in hell; light, warmth, hope, sight, sound, touch.

It always struck me as interesting that in the Garden of Eden, God seems to address Adam and Eve not as a mind-reading deity, but as a friend, asking questions, enjoying their company, seeking their input; which led me to wonder: Before the fall, when Adam and Eve were PERFECT, did God know their thoughts, or did the freedom inherent in their gift of free-will also mean they were free to think their thoughts alone - like God does?

With that in mind, does accepting Gods omniscience, necessarily mean he knew the exact choice's his creation would make? (I realise there is a ‘God is outside of time argument’ that gets regularly brought up at this point, but it frazzles my brain just thinking about it).

What if, and in my mind this is equally amazing, God knew EVERY choice angels and men could have made, and EVERY consequence those choices could have led to, and in knowing He prepared a SOLUTION (if necessary) for EVERY possible contingency.

Therefore, Satan's pride, Adam and Eve's rebellion and mankind’s subsequent brokenness were just ONE of the many FORESEEN possibilities that God prepared for – but not necessarily the one that WOULD occur. (This is where I expect the most discussion)

Therefore, in creating men and angels, God was God in that he foresaw, understood and prepared for all eventualities. But he remained true to his intended design of men and angels by distancing himself from any unrequested impetus over their will.

Put Another Way

In the beginning was God.

He has always inhabited eternity.

He is self-existent and knows nothing of need.

Dwelling in a realm beyond our comprehension, he is outside our imagining.

He is the Creator and all else is existent because of him; all that is seen and unseen.

Infinitely wise, he foresaw every ramification of what could result from his creativeness.

Incomprehensibly purposeful, he accepted all costs this would entail; and their payment.

Thus the incontestable will of God unfolded, being held to his purposes by this:

God is unconditionally powerful, infinitely wise and divinely good.

Created eternal in the image of God, men and angels are free will beings

In this freedom is found diversity of choice and therefore many, many possibilities

Being God, He foresaw the manifold possibilities his creations choices might result in,

Yet he allows men & angels full right over their will. A God given gift, God-like freedom

To choose to lay ones will at the Makers feet, or offer it elsewhere, or not at all.

However such is the omniscience of God, that in foreseeing all, he also prepared for all.

Of these possibilities was one. That an Angel would rebel and that humans would follow

That man would use his freedom to make a choice independent of Gods wisdom, will or glory

And thus by their own sinful choices, find themselves separated from their life giver & the one who gave them the power of choice.

Comments

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Zinab 4 years ago

Hey There. I found your blog using msn. That is a very well written arlicte. I will be sure to bookmark it and return to learn more of your helpful information. Thanks for the post. I will certainly return.

Author

Richard Parr 6 years agofrom Australia

@CJS ~ Thank you again for a comment filled with great thoughts. There is no greater challenge worth pursuing than to "live, breath and die for Christ", for, as the Apostle Paul said, the sufferings of this present age are not worthy to be compared to the glory to come.

Appreciate you and your feedback.

CJ Sledgehammer 6 years ago

Most excellent essay, Parrster, thank you!

You asked the question, "does accepting God's omniscience, necessarily mean he knew the exact choice's his creation would make?"

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Yes. I believe the Almighty can see from post to pillar and all things in between.

I think the thing that most people do not understand about the Almighty is that He wants only those who want Him. That is to say that He will not force people to love Him, follow Him or live with Him in eternity. He has given them free-choice to do as they will.

The Good Book says that all of creation is standing on its tip toes waiting to see the unveiling of the righteous. People like to follow sports down here on Planet Earth, but the heavenly angels and saints of heaven are cheering for those who live, breath and die for Christ.

The Almighty could have forced everyone to love and obey Him and that power is within His command. But, it isn't love freely given and that's the best love of all. The Almighty doesn't want robots, he wants loving children who come to him under their own free volition and with a spirit of gratitude and love.

Again, thank you for putting so much time into this Hub, and for caring about your fellow homo sapiens.

God's speed to you and yours - C.J. Sledgehammer

Millercl 6 years ago

"Therefore, Satan's pride, Adam and Eve's rebellion and mankind’s subsequent brokenness were just ONE of the many FORESEEN possibilities that God prepared for – but not necessarily the one that WOULD occur. (This is where I expect the most discussion)"

I agree that I would have expected some conversation concerning this also. Why do you say you feel this might be necessary?

Millercl 6 years ago

Thanks for the reply!

You marked that you expect most discussion to occur on that particular subject.

I was just asking why you think there will be.

Author

Richard Parr 6 years agofrom Australia

@millercl ~ your comment made me wince and smile at the same time :)

Forgive me, I am sometimes a bit backward in responding as I should; it's so much easier just to say thank you.

To be consistent, I will respond to your question on @#!*% as I have elsewhere.

As hard as the topic of @#!*% is, I think it remains a clear biblical teaching. Not a place of deliberately placed tortures, it is rather a place devoid of God; where God has withdrawn himself completely. Such a place, absent of the source of good, has become absent of anything good. All that man cherishes as a blessing are absent. It is, as the bible describes it, a place of darkness & weeping.

That is my current understanding on the subject. Not a pleasant place to dwell on.

I am unsure to the meaning of your second question, so I'll ask that you reiterate for me. thanks.

Millercl 6 years ago

Do you not interact with commentators with other than 'thank you's"?

Author

Richard Parr 6 years agofrom Australia

@James a Watkins ~ Always appreciate you stopping by James. yes, it was a rather weighty hub; I seem inclined to those :)

Millercl 6 years ago

"We read of another such place in scripture where God will not intrude: Hell."

How do you define hell?

"Therefore, Satan's pride, Adam and Eve's rebellion and mankind’s subsequent brokenness were just ONE of the many FORESEEN possibilities that God prepared for – but not necessarily the one that WOULD occur. (This is where I expect the most discussion)"

I agree that I would have expected some conversation concerning this also. Why do you say you feel this might be necessary?

Thanks for the rich read. Good job!

James A Watkins 6 years agofrom Chicago

Wow man! This is one heavy duty Hub. You are truly a deep thinker. Thank you for the edification.

I like the wounded soldier analogy. Very good.

And this is a profound thought: "Free will, then, is a position of most serious responsibility, for it carries with it the reality of consequence."

Amen. And Amen.

Author

Richard Parr 6 years agofrom Australia

To all~ Forgive my delayed replies.

@saintatlarge~ what a great comment. I'm always hesitant with hubs such as this, for I realise that for those set against the idea of God, an argument can always be found.

Appreciate your thoughts. God bless.

@tlcgaa70~ So appreciate your encouraging words. God and his relationship with the construct of time is a huge mystery to me, and one, ultimately, I have to wait for him to explain; but I thank you for your efforts to enlighten me further. God bless.

@stessily~ you have a wonderful way of wording things, and, I perceive, a deep reservoir of wisdom to share. Always appreciate your comments and encouragement.

@joejagodensky~ Quite right, it was a lot (possibly too much) to attempt to fit into a hub. Hopefully enough to wet the appetite and encourage a bigger bite. So true, apathy is perhaps the most dangerous evil of all.

@Ron Jundt~ Thank you for the praise and encouragment. I'll leave with you to mandate this as compulsory reading :) I've heard of Os Guinness, not sure if I've heard him before though. Blessings to you too.

@moonfroth~ My "careless athiest" friend, not so careless I think, for you have taken the time to read my hub, which I appreciate. I look forward to hearing from you again.

@Gypsy Rose Lee~ and that is probably the greatest apologetic of all, the power of Christians facing trials victoriously in faith. Sadly, I find I falter far too often during these times. Thanks for reading and commenting. God bless.

@quildon~ Amen. Thanks for reading and commenting.

@TK~ Hey buddy, thanks for reading, and for the appluase. Yes, it was challenging, and is far from exhaustive; I have but scratched the surface, I think.

TKs view 6 years agofrom The Middle Path

Hey parrster,

Good job constructing your hub. Even though we don't agree across the board on this subject, I applaud you taking on such a challenge.

Well done.

Angela Joseph 6 years agofrom Florida

Parster, you have received so many excellent comments that there's little left for me to say. But I would like to respond to the title, Did God forsee this. And the answer is a resounding YES. This is why He formulated a redemptive plan from "the foundation of the world." And that redemptive plan is "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Romans 10:9). So, yes, God gave us free will, but we have a choice: to believe or not to believe. Great, great hub!

Gypsy Rose Lee 6 years agofrom Riga, Latvia

A fascinating read. I have always believed that if you put your faith in God he will see you through the rough times.

As usual, your thoughts and your writing are taxing and challenging to a careless Atheist like me. I say "careless" because--like many other non=believers--I have as much drifted into this philosophical stance as I have arrived at it through careful study and rigorous thought. I have only skimmed your provocative post, but I will respond after I've given it the attention it deserves. Thank you.

Matthew Milam II 6 years agofrom Chicago - Be A Blessing... Become A Hand Of God

Dear parrster

Within the framework of “Free Will” or our ability to make choices of our own accord, lies the foundation of the most profound truth of all.

God has given us the power to affect the outcome of our existence in this life as well as the next simply by choosing to accept the benefits of following His Will.

I agree that the most critical choice of all is with choosing the evil we bring down on ourselves.

“And there is the heart of the problem; so many failing to acknowledge that the greatest evil is the one they perpetuate upon themselves in failing to come to God humbly seeking reconciliation.”

Faith is a choice, and we must choose to place it into action. Moses, speaking for God, expressed it clearly in his address to the Children of Israel, recorded in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NIV)

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

God, as creator, has set the playing field and we have to make the choice of how we play. He has afforded us every compassion and consideration that a being of benevolence could hope to make; even going so far as to tell us what the better choice is… choose life. This fallen world has conditioned our arrogance to demand change to the outcomes we set ourselves to face. Who are we to dictate that God become inconsistent, like us, in the way He operates? The one fact that must be faced is the understanding that God is unchanging… even when we choose not to remember that He is.

“They have learned that God does not change, even when our circumstances have.” ~ Michael Ramsden ~

Although God does not change, that for us becomes a good thing. It provides the basis for His mercy and the grace he freely gives to us all. As you point out, He is not void of compassion and shares both our delights as well as our pains. God is longsuffering toward us because like the Father He is… He loves us. That was a decision of His; a choice made long before we came into existence.

Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God’s love defines Him, as John states in his gospel… God is love. The love of God is responsible for His giving Christ to the world; it has stood the test of time and remains constant, like the rest of His character. It makes Him reliable, and for that I’m forever grateful.

Good Post, Great Content…

Blessings,

Matt.

Rob Jundt 6 years agofrom Midwest USA

Wow! After reading such a powerful, intelligent, and wise apologetic I am truly at a loss for words. Every nugget of truth you share reverberates my heart and soul. This hub should be mandatory reading for every Christian simply because it is TRUE! On the 10th anniversary of 9-11, I had the privilege to listen to one of greatest Christian apologists of our day, Dr. Os Guinness. If you have never read his works, especially on why evil exists, then I highly recommend them. If you are interested, I can send you a link of the podcast recorded that morning. Much of what he said aligns with your own thoughts. Blessings!

RJ

joejagodensky 6 years agofrom Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Great topic. You're mixing a lot of divine notions and trying to unpack them into one hub. That's quite a task. The opposite of love is not hate but apathy. I fear apathy far more than evil.

stessily 6 years ago

parrster: Mirabile dictu! Miracles happen. I was very pleased to see this hub fortuitously when I signed in because I received no notification as one of your followers that you had released a hub. :-(

There is much to think about here. I appreciate your paraphrase of C.S. Lewis' comment about nonsense remaining nonsense even in the context of a discussion about God. It's a great observation which has helped me through manmade conundrums.

I have been pondering free will lately, and my feeling is that there are many interpretations which could easily be just facets of a whole which has yet to be perceived. When faced with these mysteries, I remind myself of Hamlet's great observation that there are more things in heaven and earth than are met with in human philosophy --- just as there are sounds outside of the hearing range of human ears and sights outside of the spectrum visible to human eyes. Humans keep tackling and defining those concepts and events which seem to be outside the realm of the human mind. And as for the heart --- what is outside its range? Nothing and everything, depending upon the perspective.

This was well worth waiting for, and I am pleased that there will be a Part 3. I have a deadline today but this hub will linger in the air as I reluctantly turn my attention elsewhere, and it will intrude at times throughout this day. I welcome that!

Voted up, useful, funny, awesome, beautiful, interesting.

Kind regards, Stessily

tlmcgaa70 6 years agofrom south dakota, usa

Beautiful.

you hit the nail on the head so very well, it is flush with the board.

let me tell you what I think about GOD, time, and knowing all. We know GOD is outside of time, right? more than that, HE is time itself. HE is past, present and future all at once. HE exists in all three at once. HE can do that you know. the past and the future are always the present for HIM. that is how HE always knows what has happened, is happening ans is going to happen. we have but one live...and but one time line. can you imagine how very great GOD must be to handle all the chaos we generate? even if it was only just here in the present...but add in the past and future to...that is overwhelming.

GOD is in control of all things. He knows the plan HE has set into motion, yes HE has left man to his own devices, to chance...but those who live in obedience to HIM, those HE takes care of, often dealing with the non believer for the sake of HIS children, this has been shown in the bible. I know that no man, no creature, no force of nature can harm me unless GOD allowed it. if HE should allow it, it is for my own personal growth and a good thing. I fear no human, creature or act of nature.

and that part you added, about those people who cling to GOD when things got better and even more when bad, knowing HE was their strength...that is so true.

this is a great hub, you did very well. voted up and all across except funny

Saint Lawrence 6 years agofrom Canada

Once again, thank you parrster for stirring the grey cells.

Of course it is a subject that will never find a complete conclusion because an argument will always arise. I enjoyed your format, your interjections from the sources you chose and the conclusion. What I have found over the last few years particularly, is the "FAITH", it takes to not believe. It takes a terrific amount of energy and thought and argument to stand in the dark. I really do not have anything to add to what I see as a well designed hub, covering in short order a very profound subject. Well done. I look forward to more... Blessings L