This thread is entertaining but it merely confirms the Chinese view that Europe is a sort of weird Disneyland with Eiffel Tower, Acropolis, Colosseum &c, useful as customer, but not a real grown-up nation one needs to take seriously.

I wonder whether Monsieur Hollande will make hay from this Spanish sunshine. I have a feeling that he is warming up more and more to George Soros' suggestion of a "Latin Union under French leadership". The idea sounds tailor-made for M. Hollande's own ambitions, and it would of course revive Sarkozy's "Mediterranean Union" under a new name. No kisses for Madame Merkel.

At the end of the 19th Century there were proposals for a Latin alliance France-Italy-Spain. There is already a Latin Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Union , but it's just a headless second-class Commonwealth of Nations.

One of the reasons for Europe's success has been the competition of its various nations with each other. In contrast, China over a period of centuries became satisfied with the status quo and homogeneity and, since there was no major competing power to shake it out of its stasis, found itself vulnerable upon the arrival of the Europeans and the Europeanized Japanese.

The rationale of the EU seems to be to allow the nations of Europe to compete with each other without resorting to war. However, by subordinating national sovereignty to a supernational entity, the nations run the risk of eliminating the very vitality that made them great.

The companies of Europe are merging with those of Asia and America and will eventually lose whatever national identity they still retain. We can no longer look to the pursuit of wealth to provide the impulse for national development.

If Europe allows its nations to be lost in the anonymity of EU dominion, a great impulse for creativity and innovation will be threatened and the results for Europe- and the world- will be dire.

Your analogy is wrong on a couple of levels. First of all, Portugal may be an ant, but Germany most assuredly is not. That assures that, given the amalgamation of the various European creatures, French eagle, German leopard, Italian hawk and Portuguese ant, the resultant animal will not be a larger ant, but a chimera, an unnatural and therefore unwholesome creature, bearing the seeds of its own destruction in its genetic makeup.

Secondly, Europeans can speak with a single voice any time they choose and not submerge the sovereignty of their various nations in the process. Of course they don't want to. That is why their conniving, deluded leaders embarked on the despotic fantasy of creating the EU: to circumvent the democratic process that permits the various nations to express their wills.

The result has been calamity verging on strife. If that is your idea of an improvement over what you had prior to the EU, you need to reexamine your evidence.

Europe can have a common market, its nations can collaborate on any number of projects, but they don't have to have an army of bureaucrats swooping down on them from Brussels, telling them what to do, crushing the independence of ancient nations by arrogating their fiscal powers to themselves.

Your analogy seems to suggest a desire to have the ants tell off the elephant. If you don't like the American elephant, dismiss him. He is not a bear or a dragon: he will go home at your request. I'm not aware of his footprint in Portugal so what is your problem anyhow?

Maybe you don't like the elephant doing anything anywhere that you don't like. TS. Go ahead and be a chimera, who really cares anyhow? The elephant will ignore it until its unnaturally rapid demise, since it is after all only a chimera. Then what? Ants again.

"In contrast, China over a period of centuries became satisfied with the status quo and homogeneity"

What do you know about China? China is and never were homogeneous society. China consisted of Chinese, who are now extinct, plus over 50 different ethinicity. China was ruled by nomadic people who invaded China, such as, Khitans, Mongols, and Manchus. And they imposed iron-fist rule so that Chinese cannot revolt. Look at real-chinese emperors who were real Chinese. They are different from Chinese you see today. You can compare with your son-in-law;

Since its earliest times China has been the object of hegemons that strove to unite it under a single authority- not dissimilar to European history.

The difference is that in China unity was essentially achieved, and its government has long been typified by top-down central authority, as much with the Communist party today as with the despotic emperors of past centuries; whereas no single nation was ever able to take and hold all of Europe. It is this multipolar character of power that has distinguished Europe and been responsible for much of its technological prowess.

The fact that China has multiple ethnicities that were united more or less continuously for centuries, resulting in a stagnant technological environment demonstrates my point that Europe may eventually find itself in a similar position of inferiority if its nations abdicate their sovereignty and allow the initiative-deadening hand of the EU to assume full authority.

Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany designed this famous drawing at the end of the 19th Century, warning against the "Yellow Peril". Instead of animals, the European powers were represented by mythological goddesses, matrons, virgins or whatever they are. "Völker Europas, wahrt eure heiligsten Güter" (Peoples of Europe, guard your dearest goods).

Spain will probably have to use the help of the ECB. It won't be a big deal.

The Spanish people are amazing. I've been accompanying with a bit more fervour the headlines in the most popular noewspapers in Spain, and reading the comments. They seem perfectly aware of what needs to be done.

It's obviously not a pretty thing. It is a mere reflection of what happened everywhere. Greed, with State conivence, led to bad investments in non-transactionables. Bubble burst, bye bye GDP, bailing out the banks , etc

Hopefully Spain will be proud enough to put some of these people in trial. In Portugal we are fighting to do so, especially with the PPPs which are a disgrace to this nation.

Eventually, and call me an optimist for all I care, Iberian will come out of this crisis stronger and with a more modern economy. Portugal's racing to an account surplus perhaps even this year (exports grew 14% past trimester), and Spain will sort the banks after which things will probably go a bit quieter. I think the situation in Catalonia is manageable. Obviosly I believe people have the right to be what they want to be. In a democracy then can be given the right to choose. But to be quite frank with you I think that, in a referendum, the Catalonian independence would lose.

"Iberian will come out of this crisis stronger and with a more modern economy."

Lets hope for the world's sake they do. Because if this euro crisis isn't fixed soon, it is going to drag the world economy down with it.

And this won't be the first time continental Europe has dragged half the world into its self inflicted firestorms.

The last time they did it, the world barely managed to come out of it alive.

The continent that gave the world Hitler, Mussolini & Stalin should think long and hard about the effect the current economic crisis is doing to the political fabric of Europe.

If elections were held today in Greece, Golden Dawn would be be third largest party in parliament. Polls show that half of Catalonians support independence. Neo nazis have won seats in regional parliaments in Germany and their support is growing in east Germany. The Geert Wilders and Le Pens are winning record number of seats in parliament. Racist extremists parties have won big in Scandinavian countries.

I do not agree with you at all. Spain represents the fifth largest economy in the eurozone, so do you know what this is means? if Spain fall, Europe will fall with Spain.

The worst thing for Spain in my opinion, there is not any recovery sytom from the extrem situation the country is involved. The most high-qualified people are leaving the country looking for an opportunity, that nowdays it is impossible to find in the country. So who is gonna turn over it? Inept politicians?

You are right. The brain drain of the ablest people is a tragedy for Spain or any other country. Whilst we in Germany will always welcome intelligent and enterprising young people entering our country, because we need them to fill the many positions falling empty when the present generation gradually retires, it cannot be in our or Europe’s best interest if this is done at the cost of brother countries. Better to keep the jobs in Spain and to move some of our sub supply needs there, as has actually happened in the car industry. This can best be achieved by internal devaluation. The labour unit costs in Spain have to be markedly below the ones in Germany, as otherwise such a shifting will not take place.

The alternative, to return to the Peseta, would not really be the answer unless all the raw materials and energy is procured internally. Even then it is not a good solution, as it would allow your government to print money as much as they like leading to massive inflation, cheating the profligate and savers out of their pensions and nest eggs. There is no alternative to the Euro as an anchor of stability and confidence allround, as I believe most people in your country agree.

Engineers, mechanics, anybody who can hold a spanner, fix a car or something. There are plenty of jobs going of this kind, as the old folk are gradually retiring. Restaurants we have a plenty and hairdressers cannot earn a decent living, so no point to come here.

Size does not matter if you have bloated bubble economy funded by government spending with borrowed money. Obviously, this cannot be sustained since your government cannot keep borrowing money. S&P put Spain into junk status! When you deflate Spain's economy somewhere to sustainable level, Spain's economy will be much smaller, say 40~50% smaller than now!

And a list about the economic growth (GDP) of 185 countries just published in which Spain is the 184th (the 185th is Greece), I'd say that the situation is really serious, and this is only the beginning, I'm afraid.

What is so frightening about these agencies is the overall silence as if people are afraid to criticise them.
Their methods etc have been proven wrong and these continuous, periodic downgrades of certain countries seem to prove how absurd they are - and what is most ridiculous - how they're taken seriously, and because of that, actually manage to make the crisis worse.
Oh World

When Spain goes the way of Greece, the scapegoating of the "anglos" will reach fever pitch.

According to Barrosso, Canada is also to blame for the euro crisis.
This piece of wisdom was revealed at the last G20 summit when a Canadian reporter had the nerve to ask why north Americans should pay for rich Europeans through never ending IMF eurozone bailouts.

Apparently all anglo countries are now scapegoats for the EU's stupidity in creating this deeply flawed one size fits all currency.

Should been junk three months ago the other two CRA especially MOODY will grade junk.They have been very aggressive.there is a EZ bank report also coming out soon it will be interesting to see how they rating down grades go.

Do you mean the UK.Let be honest france,UK,germany will be down graded and should be as should the USA.As to the med club there at near junk or are junk with greece in its own club, Italy should be also on a lower rating.

Germany feared being left on the sidelines of any tie-up between European aerospace giant EADS and British arms maker BAE Systems, analysts say, after Berlin was blamed for blocking the deal.
Talks on the potential $45-billion (35-billion-euro) mega-merger, which BAE Systems abandoned on Wednesday, were blocked by Germany, a source close to the matter told AFP.

"The Germans are worried that there will be a duopoly with Toulouse (Airbus headquarters in southern France) in charge of civil matters and London for defence," said Henrik Uterwedde, deputy director of the German-French Institute in Ludwigsburg, before the talks collapsed.

But German Economy Minister Philipp Roesler also insisted that "Germany has to preserve its interests" while recognising that this merger was an "undoubted opportunity."
With possibly less than a year to go until national elections, Berlin was sensitive to the need to protect its factories and tens of thousands of EADS-linked jobs in Germany.

My fear is that the defence activities of the firm will be divided between France and Britain," said Martin Lindner, parliamentary vice-president of the Free Democrats, junior coalition partners in the German government.

I no what has been happening thanks MC,Dont forget that france has much to loose with it own defence companies also but as to the germans we all no they hate to loose control,The whole thing was a non starter form the beginning.

Funny how certain governments, and their mouthpieces in Brussels, advocate the 'free market' and preach 'liberalisation' in Europe, especially in certain countries, and then go all protective when it comes to actually letting the laws of the 'free market' (they themselves advocate) work for themselves!
It's pretty sad to see how hypocritical the world is.
I'll concede this to the French, at least they're open about protecting their national industry.

When the French tells him to take the money, he says "yeah, that would be the case because Spain needs it for securing social welfare for the Spaniard". When the German tells him not to take the money, he says "yeah, that would be the case, because Spain is so far so good, and I believe that the best move for Spain right now is to go ahead with austerity".

So, is he really the prime minister of Spain? Sometimes, he's but many times he's not. He says that "either the news agency is right, and it has better source than the prime minister of Spain", and I believe that he tells truth because the news agency got leaked news or documents from Berlin, Paris or Brussels.

Since this board has turned into a discussion about Galician character here are my 2 cents... If you care, you might learn something...
We are and feel part of Spain, a country along with Portugal, our ancestors helped fund during the Reconquest.
Castilian/Spanish was never our primary language, my grandparents barely spoke it, like a big percentage of their generation. That has changed now.
We are proud people - you probably didn't know that. We've never been wealthy, but everybody always owned something and relied on his/her work to survive. We are an egalitarian society, since we got rid of the aristocracy, for good and for bad, during the 15th century. We are not good at working together, due to our kind of landscape, but we mostly get along.
We are as stupid and as smart as anybody else, but don't assume anything from the fact that we speak slowly: we might think fast. Thoughtfulness is our best character trait. You might interpret that as indecisive, when we read "cautious".
We are suspicious of foreigners, a characteristic of a rural society, but we welcome people who are not charlatans and show respect for our traditions.
Our genes are not different from the rest of the Iberia peninsula, although an important part of ancestors came from Northern and Central Europe, just like in other areas of the peninsula, so often the names of our villages sound strange.
Most of us want a successful Spain, but - probably - like a majority of Basques, Catalans, etc... we demand respect for our traditions. Spain needs to sell a different image: a country of different cultures or nationalities and dump the bad-selling image of flamenco dancers and bullfighting, which happen to be a false one.

He has a primitive and poisoned mind-set about the UK based on his own misadventures there. Therefore he vents his spleen repetitively against England and anyone who he presumes to be English and eurorealist on this blog, and thinks that all this repetition makes this “EU” disaster OK, and him a hero of the subsidy-hungry GIPS and eastern Europeans.

PS. He thinks the whole of Europe is German. He is at it again with the Catalans this time – last week it was the Portuguese:)

"our ancestors"
most of Iberia's ancestors helped 'found' 'Spain' and Portugal.
The kingdom of Galicia was shortlived and their kings were of Visigothic stock as most of the kings of the four founding kingdoms anyway.
The funniest thing is that among the four founding kingdoms (Portugal having secceeded from the Kingdom of Léon in the 12th century) there is no 'Basque' or 'Catalan' kingdom to be found.
The most noble of Iberian Kingdoms was obviously the Kingdom of Léon, and I've always wondered (perhaps not) why there is no independentist movement (which could be taken seriously) there.

Wasn't Pumpernickel also claiming that the English are so similar to Germans. After claiming the Italians have so much in common with Germans. Later on he claimed the Poles were the spitting image of Germans.

The Galician kings were Suebi until in 585 it was conquered by the Visigoths, unless you refer to the brief periods in the 10th-12th centuries when Galicia became independent from León.

There were Basque and Catalan kingdoms: Navarre and Barcelona/Aragon.
Castile gradually conquered or annexed parts of Navarre (including what is now the Basque Country) from 1054 to 1515, when the whole of Navarre was incorporated into the Crown of Castile. Until 1164, the Catalan Counts of Barcelona (i.e. Catalonia) were just counts, but after that year they became Kings of Aragon as well, but they were Catalan and belonged to the House of Barcelona.

Exactly, irman kingdom of Navarre and kingdom of aragon. not basque kingdom or calatan kingdom, which makes them modern inventions by all means.

Yes the kingdom of Galicia (which comprised the north of Portugal, capital city was actually bracara Augusta ) was under suebic rule, but was later taken by the Visigoths, and the period in which I define the 'founding kingdoms' , Galicia was ruled by the Leonese/Asturian elite , of visigothic, and Frankish stock.

My point is that Catalonia and the basque country are modern problems with only just a partial hysterical background to them . It is my opinion.

In fact you are right, the last count of Barcelona Ramon beriguel IV (which were counts and never kings) married Petronilla queen of Aragon. Their daughter Dulce de Barcelona, infanta de Aragon married Sancho I of .... Portugal! After that you have the usual inter Castilian-Leonese-Portuguese-aragonese marriages taking place. I fail to see, and under the light of the time, how Barcelona could claim any kind of historic legacy to independence, unless they break with this past.

In 1164 Alfonso II, a Catalan (though born in Huesca, Aragon) of the House of Barcelona, was King of Arago and Count of Barcelona (which comprised virtually the whole of Catalonia). It was the union of two countries, but under the rule of a dynasty, the Catalan, not the Aragonese one. That lasted for centuries, and therefore there was a Catalan kingdom, whatever its name was. http://www.calonsong.org/CalontirSongs/catalanvengeancehistory.htm

Names are not so important. The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, 1816-1860, in spite of its name was ruled by Neapolitan kings that had their court in Naples, not in Sicily. The Kingdom of Sardinia (sometimes called Piedmont-Sardinia) was ruled by the kings of the House of Savoy who had their court in Turin. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (January 1st, 1801) did not even mention England in its official name, but England was by far the richest, most populated and most powerful part of it, and its capital was London.

As for the Catalan "problem", I'd say that it started in 1640, so it's pretty old. The Basque "problem" is relatively more modern, 1833-39, 1872-1876 and, surely, 1936-37. They are not inventions and they existed long before the Spanish economic crisis that began in 2008.

Language is very important: both Catalans and Basques have their own, just like Finns speak Finnish, not Swedish or Russian, or Dutch people speak Dutch, not German. I mean mother tongues.

I also respect yours.
I obviously didn't mean that the independence movements started in 2008. I just don't think they have that much of a historical legitimacy as some would have us believe. The righteous heir to the aragonese crown is very likely the actual king of spain Juan Carlos. In fact isn't him by birth the actual count of Barcelona?. Therefore from ahistorical perspective -and taking into account -that what counted the most in that period was on which head the crown would fall, the Catalan independence, I think, is less related to historical legitimacy and more connected with recent migration phenomena due to the fact that the basque country and Catalonia were the first regions of Spain to be industrialised.
I would be more supportive of a kingdom of Aragon. :-) it is a lot cooler,

Ok maybe I am playing devil's advocate here, and obviously the aragonese royal line was the legitimate successor of the county of Barcelona, and I did not present the full line above. However with the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella the title befell on what would be later known as the kingdom of Spain. or not?

I presume Catalonian independentists would want the newly found nation to be a Republic.

Spain took Barcelona to war because the crown was to go to the Hapsburg line, as well you would know had you read the links. A Hapsburg could be invited to take the crown again as much as the country could become a republic.

You are right in what you say about legitimacy, but those Catalans and Basques who want independence are republican and don't give a fig about monarchical legitimacies, just like the Portuguese in 1910 when they proclaimed the República Democrática Portuguesa and "bade farewell" to the Bragança kings that had reigned there since 1640...

You wrote that "there is no 'Basque' or 'Catalan' kingdom to be found." and I just replied and told you that there were. Not with the names "Kingdom of Euskadi" or "Kingdom of Catalunya", of course, but with other names.

Since you are Portuguese, perhaps you would like to read what I wrote yesterday on another thread. If I made any mistake concerning Portugal, please feel free to correct me.

"History is so sad and strange, sometimes: if Isabella of Castile (later Queen Isabella the Catholic) had liked King Afonso V of Portugal and had accepted to marry him, the history of the Iberian peninsula might have been so different... Castile and Portugal might have become a sole country and the Crown of Aragon, especially Catalonia, would have not lost its independence and might exist today as a country, just as Portugal is now. The whim and sexual preferences of a 13-year-old girl,—including the fact that Afonso was 20 years older—, changed history! (A Portuguese friend of mine used to say: "how lucky we were!". Many Portuguese think the same. Yes, in 1640 and finally in 1665-1668 they succeeded and they have been independent ever since. In 1640 the Catalans tried, but by 1668 they were again where they were in 1639.)"

--------------------------------------

(I know that Nobel Prize Saramago liked the idea of a union between Portugal and Spain.)

&&&&&&&&&&

As for Catalonia as a monarchy or a republic, I wrote this:

"A republic, of course. I simply cannot believe that they would look for a Habsburg, a Bourbon (unless they meant to drink it ;-) or a Windsor—what about Prince Harry? El Rey Enric I de Catalunya?

No, that wouldn't be serious. República Catalana is much better. By the way, it would be the Fifth Republic, like in France, for they already proclaimed one in 1641, 1873, 1931 and 1934"

Accrux,
Thank you.
You seem to be very knowledgeable of Iberian history.
I am just a dilettante... but know this. I believe that the reunification of the Iberian Peninsula under one 'crown', 'person', 'symbol'... has always been the dream and goal of our forefathers (the same ones Galaitian mentions in his post).
Aragon (Catalonia) and Portugal - have a long history together - how far back does it go!! remember the political mess that the House of Trastamara represented to the Portuguese, for instance, and perhaps solely because the Portuguese Ferdinand I was enamoured with Leonor Telles de Menezes and his father, Pedro, to Inês de Castro (these two loves led to the 1383-1385 crisis, in which an illegitimate line - the House of Aviz came to rule Portugal) can we explain why Iberia (again?) wasn't reunited ...
The secession of Catalonia from Spain would represent a challenge to Portugal. It may as well represent the beginning of a Confederation of Iberian nations, andI don't see why Portugal couldn't join it if it came to be?.
Saramago may have been right. Some have defended that Portugal and Spain aren't one single nation because they would have been too powerful. Phillip II (I of Portugal) was perhaps the most powerful heir in global history.
On his father's (Charles V) side he inherited one half of Europe, and a growing empire in the Americas
On his mother's side (Isabel of Portugal) he inherited Portugal's Eastern Empire, which stretched from Ethiopia to Japan.

This said,
I am jealous of Catalonia.
It is not only a beautiful land , as it is the home of so many fascinating individuals.
Gaudi's work is perhaps one of the most intriguing architectural feats in History. I could spend a lifetime starring at the details.
The wealth of the Catalonians is legendary, and it is real.
In many ways Catalonia is the antithesis to Portugal. Both at the opposite ends of the Peninsula, one 'independent', at least from Madrid, the other one not so much. One richer than the other. Both could claim so much, and 1640 is significant to both.

You seem to be more than just a dilettante, and what you tell about Iberian history is very interesting. Just think, if Prince Juan/Joan of Trastamara and Trastamara (June 28, 1478-October 4, 1497), the only son of King Ferran/Fernando II of Aragon (also King Fernando V of Castile) and Queen Isabel I of Castile, had not died when he was only 19 years old, he might have been in his own right King Juan III of Castile, King Joan III of Aragon and perhaps, thanks to his Portuguese grandmother, King Joâo (sorry, a ^ is all I have!) III of Portugal as well. Since his father already conquered Spanish Navarre in 1512, he would have unified the whole Iberian Peninsula 60 years before King Philip II of Spain did, and in a better way.

I "proposed" elsewhere a Spanish confederal republic or rather a Union of Spanish Republics, just four or five of them. If Portugal joined, it could become a Union of Iberian Republics intead. Spanish Confederation, Iberian Confederation could be good names as well. Perhaps even in Latin, to avoid linguistic problems: Confederatio Hispanica or Confederatio Iberica, like Switzerland's Confederatio Helvetica, hence CH. It's either something like this or an impossible situation or outright secession (hopefully not like in Yugoslavia in the 1990s), because the Spanish Constitution of 1978 is not the Tablets of Law supposedly given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai, as many politicians in Spain seem to believe.

"It is good news for me to learn that you are so well. It seems to me that your little sister is getting her eye teeth pretty early. Perhaps they are in place of the two which I am on the point of losing and which I shall probably no longer have when I get back. But if I had nothing worse to trouble me, that might pass....

I am sending you also some roses and an orange flower, just to let you see that we have them here [Lisbon]. Calabres brings me bunches of both of these flowers every day, and we have had violets for a long time....After this rainy time I imagine that you will be having flowers, too, by the time my sister arrives, or soon after. God keep you as I would have him!"

I said "helped" trying to avoid controversy: but let's go for it... We tend to interpret history with a modern mindset, using current concepts and current maps. But the fact is that Asturias was united with Galicia, Northern Portugal and parts of Leon during long periods of history. During the early times of the Reconquest the area is often referred as Galicia before Asturias and Leon acquired their own personality. It would be unfair to call it Galicia but it's also unfair to call it Asturias, Leon or Northern Portugal.

But my point is that Galicia being the most densely populated area on that side of the Peninsula provided the bulk of the armies to recover and even recolonize other areas.

The history we've been taught and that might still influence our minds is often incidental and wrong. Just an example, this is something it took me a while to realize: The Moors didn't get a hold of the North, not because of the Cantabrian Mountains. I think that is a myth. Occupying the North of the Iberian Peninsula is a tough proposition. You can easily occupy the plains (modern Castile and Leon), with a relatively small number of cities and villages. But how do you occupy areas like Galicia, for example, where you can find 10 villages in 10 Km2? Things have changed, but even today the population of Castile and Leon is 2.5 million, 27/sq.Km. The population of Galicia is 2.7 millions, 94/sq.Km.

Hilarious!
Why is Spain, be it Vandalusia, suebic Galicia, Gothic Castilia or the land bearing the name of Otger Cathaló, a Germanz knight fighting under the Germanz Emperor Karl der Grosse (Charlemagne), considered by the unwashed wearing tattoos and nose rings, from a land mired in fog, both real and intellectual, unable to hold their drink and sick all over the place, given to potty language and strangling swans, considered in any way inferior to their Merry land.
Spain, which owns all the airports and only High Street banks not bankrupt and nationalized in the Merry land ... why is such a proud country with first class quality hotels at affordable prices, with delicious food at affordable prices considered inferior to the land where plumbing is atrocious and showers trickle rather than spray, with its overpriced hotels of shoddy quality and service, its only lately discovered Continental Europe’s Esskultur … why is such a wholesome country in any way considered “inferior” to the Merry land, when all the evidence points to the opposite evaluation?
Hilarious!

Besides all the economic data, when digging through the rubble of British hype and Spanish over statement, indicating a Spain in much better economic shape than the moribund UK, there is, indeed, as this article also points out the Spanish family.

Family values, decency, pride which also exist in the British middle classes but being eroded from both sides, their dissolute upper classes and the parasitical, sponging under class.

In Spain such values exist throughout giving the country its moral backbone and fallback position. One of the reasons, perhaps the most important, why Spain with the help of its friends, first and foremost Germany, will overcome its problems and prove a pillar of the Euro zone. All monies lent to Spain will be repaid with interest. Of this there cannot be any doubt.

With Spain and Portugal on the mend and Italy in no need of any help, really, what problems remain, Greece and Ireland, are manageable. Ireland is taken care of by the UK or else ....
Greece is taken care of by Germany .... or else. ... laughs.

My truly bizarre rant was in the direction of two trolls who regularly embarrass themselves in these blogs and no doubt will soon make an appearance when waking up from last nights overindulgence spending their dole money on some strong German Becks beer. I regret coming on a bit strong on accasion. This is deliberate. We have to be cruel to be kind! There is no gentle way to get my message across these two thickos, who indulge in humiliating put downs of the GIPSI's, as you also have been heard referring to them. GIPS is the politically correct term, as the Italians are not really part of this club.

Fair enough, though do you realize how similar you are to them, when you post stuff like this?
And that any intelligent person simply ignores this kind of trolling post, so the adult response is simply to ignore them?

This kind of trolling should, of course, be ignored and I normally do but then the lickdirts and ochichins may actually gain the impression that they have won the ground and, for that reason, I sometimes feel inclined to do Beelzebub to fight Satan:-) Besides, it's fun if you don't take all this too serious.

That's the problem. He has an unnatural infatuation with me. Same ochichina, she also is obsessed with me and who could blame her, poor thing. I may not be as handsome as viva but must have some other qualities, these two find irresistible. Always telling themselves about pumpernickel's many shortcomings and anybody else who will listen, despite my whipping them regularly. Wait a minute, that might be the problem. Masochists both :-)))

But you have to admit, Josh, what would life be around these blogs without the Morlocks? Imagine we would hold forth in a civilized, polite, measured way which, of course, we could as well as junior or sammy. The Morlocks would have a free run of the circus. Dirtlick would be all over his padded cell and ochinchina would go OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO you are so full of yourself pumpy and OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ze Germanz are hiding all these trillions of MBOs or whatever she calls it. Can't really let her do it with her really round face, can we now , Josh?

It when he said about Germany being spains friend i could not stop
laughing,Well it only taken the EZ six months to bail out greece the first
time round i will add,Well what do you expect from from dithering merkel and
of course Spain thinks it does not need a bail out of course not,That what
love about the Spanish CB and FM there nothing wrong with Spanish banking and
regional government's,It really makes me laugh,How ever when Spain does go
for bail out you can add another 170Bn euro to Germany garentees to add to
the 360Bn it already has promised with the other club meds.Yes spain has a
friend in germany lol.I do love watching it all fall apart day by day.

Rajoy’s words were uttered with lots of irony, but his statement was clear. Of course, opening an article with an exotical word is always more engaging to the readers, no matter whether its meaning applies to the situation quoted or not. Besides, its use is intended to show off knowledge. However, one expects deep analysis, up to your magazine standards, not the usual topics. “Tell me something that I don’t know”.

FYI, I am a Economist subscriptor and it is not the first time I comment the news (maybe under a different address/ nickname? I admit I am not certain, but I can assure you that this is by no means a scheme to go undetected, just in case you are given to paranoia...)
On the other hand, according to your own standards, your appreciation of the English language must also be defective since by no means I insulted you in my post. As I said, I broadly agreed with your contribution but it just happens that I am quite tired of stereotypical comments about Galician accent and retranca (sigh) and I think that in the end you did the same that very many Spaniards do. In any case, I apologise if I offended you, it was not my intention.
By the way, glad you are flattered - it seems that it does not take much to make you feel good with yourself :-)

FYI, I am a Economist subscriptor and it is not the first time I comment the news (maybe under a different address/ nickname? I admit I am not certain, but I can assure you that this is by no means a scheme to go undetected, just in case you are given to paranoia...)
On the other hand, according to your own standards, your appreciation of the English language must also be defective since by no means I insulted you in my post. As I said, I broadly agreed with your contribution but it just happens that I am quite tired of stereotypical comments about Galician accent and retranca (sigh) and I think that in the end you did the same that very many Spaniards do. In any case, I apologise if I offended you, it was not my intention.
By the way, glad you are flattered - it seems that it does not take much to make you feel good with yourself :-)

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But feiti... if you are addressing me, as you obviously are, WHY didn't you reply to ME? Galician retranca? (OK, OK, I am kidding, eppur...), I mean, I just came across your comment, if this had not happened you wouldn't have given me the opportunity to reply, and that wouldn't have been nice, because one must always be given the right to reply, as I am giving it to you now sending YOU my response.

If you are not certain of what you do or did, who is? ;-)

No, I am not "given to paranoia", I just see facts and ponder about them. For example, if I smell grilled sardines I tend to think "hey, someone must be grilling sardines somewhere".

"Appreciation of the English language"? Beware of false friends, my friend!

If my long response to you was not enough for you to understand that there was nothing stereotypical or derogatory in my comment about the (very, very strong) Galician accent, then I give up. Talking about paranoia: there is not a "Judaeo-Masonic" or a "Castilian-Spanish-Catalan-British-Andalusian conspiracy against Galicia and Galicians, don't be so hypersensitive.

Oh, but don't understimate yourself, old chap, I felt flattered because you are a very special person, no doubt. Only two comments in your short "career"and both addressed—though not sent—to me. Isn't it flattering?

Bad news: The Economist does not have subscriptors, sorry. I know this well because I was a subscriber myself...

If you want to reply, would you mind clicking "Reply", write whatever you want and then click "POST"? Thank you.

"Salvador de Madariaga, a noted Spanish diplomat of Galician origin, claimed the key to succeed in international diplomacy was a combination of "Basque firmness and Galician subtlety".

__________________________________________

He was one of the finest universal Galician-Spaniards that ever lived. He might have been a good President of the Spanish Second Republic. His essay "Ingleses, franceses, españoles" (Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards: An Essay in Comparative Psychology) is one of the best I have read. A polyglot, he wrote many books in four languages. A fine man.

Really, senor, you don't need to be concerned about Catalonia breaking away from Spain. After all, under EU authority, Spain will cease to be an independent nation at all. Soon it will be simply a province of the Brussels overlords and Catalonia just another district in the sprawling EU empire, visited by the mighty EU lords, just as Madrid once sent its viceroy to the Netherlands to rule.

And you won't have long to wait for your new masters to arrive. Look at Merkel in Greece, there no doubt to admire the ruins and take in some brisk Mediterranean air.

When Rajoy finally caves in to the demands of the Nortenos, as is mathematically inescapable, a host of Bruxellois will descend on you, putting your fiscal house in order. Then you will know what real austerity is. They don't care about your sick or aged. Want to know what real austerity is? Look at Athens.

"Really, senor, you don't need to be concerned about Catalonia breaking away from Spain. After all, under EU authority, Spain will cease to be an independent nation at all. Soon it will be simply a province of the Brussels overlords and Catalonia just another district in the sprawling EU empire, visited by the mighty EU lords, just as Madrid once sent its viceroy to the Netherlands to rule." Second awesome comment ever \(o.o)/

The name of the heir apparent to the Spanish Throne, the Prince of Asturias, is Felipe de Borbón y Grecia (Greece), because his mother, Queen Sofía, was the daughter of the King of the Hellenes (Greece). He was born in Spain just a month and two weeks after his uncle, King Constantine II, the last King of the Hellenes, had to leave Greece forever. How appropriate...

Little Gibraltar is doing so much better than its huge bullying neighbour,Spain. Catalan and other see this and wonder why they would want to be part of a bulling mafia state like Spain, when they could do better on their own.

Spain is not a country, it is a territory of the €U. It does not have its own currency, its told by another how much it may spend, and has limited sovereignty.

Oh yeah, so easy to say but actually untrue. In fact Spain, that country you despise so much, actually has a higher GDP PER HEAD than smuggling/offshore money laundering hotspot gibraltar. Of course you must account for the black market economy of gibraltar to say it does well at all.

If Spain is not a country, what is? Oh I get it; you only consider entities governed by mafia, like gibraltar or catalonia, as countries. Please inform yourself better.

Spain owes nothing to the UK. Since Thatcher got that rebate in the 80's, britain did not fully participate in the european cohesion fund. Actually, the reverse is true. The UK owes much to Spain, from healthcare service british tourists takes at Spain's expense to the damage to infrastructure made by their holigans to the parasite economy of gibraltar. Really it is britain that owes to Spain.

Spain is no more self governing than Gibraltar, Spain answers to Brussels for its budget and its currency. Soon it will also answer to the troika. It is a territory of Brussels, a province not a country.

Thanks for the comment and quantifying the facts. As you also pointed out, Spain didn't ask for a bailout in spite of rumors spread by the anglo media and racist idiots like that guy you were replying to.

Hello MARIE-CLAUDE !
You would think that way because you told us ARGENTINA was your favourite country, a kinky fascist's favourite:)
I am sure V S NAIPAUL interviewed you while you were savouring the back door affections the local gauchos.
.
A - ha - ha - ha - ha - ha - ha - haaaaa !!

My son visited Argentina within his sabbatical year world trip. He found that that was the most pleasant southern America country, not for what you suggested, but for people kindness, honnesty, ready to help you. Unlike in Colombia, Peru, Chile, where you are harrassed by people who want to make money out of you

"Unlike in Colombia, Peru, Chile, where you are harrassed by people who want to make money out of you"
This has nothing to do with anyone's favourite bars, It's all in the public domaine.
Their national passtime is to go around kicking ladies' "back doors" in and then sitting at the terraces bragging about their scores to other menfolk. That's not "pleasant".
It may be for your sort though, for that is why you like going to this "most pleasant southern America country" isn't it?
That, and being a traditional catholic fascist of course.

The only reason for Spain to try preventing a catalan secession is for military/security considerations. For all its sense of self importance, catalonia has no real strategic value for Spain. Actually the opposite is true as catalonia has been for centuries a major destabilizing force in preventing Spain's development. The catalan mafia succesfully secured economic and political privileges in imposing policies that favored their interests but that were detrimental to the rest of Spain. The catalan mafia keeps on spreading that lie about fiscal imbalance where in reality they are net recipients of fiscal transfer within Spain. On top of that they demand a special rescue from Madrid (ie the rest of Spain) to fund their megalomaniac projects that put catalonia into bankrupcy.

I have also seen many comments about the overspending of Catalonia, then why spaniards do not allow their independence, if their economy is so in bankrupt? In this case they would not have to be rescued.
Spain has been spending Catalan money for more than 300 years, and the money from the EU for 20 years.

"Spain has been spending Catalan money for more than 300 years, and the money from the EU for 20 years." The most funny comment since now, ask to PSC-ERC-ICV where your money has gone. And now, with CIU trimming your wages and closing hospitals, do you also look towards Madrid? Artur Mas is worst than Rajoy, but for a catalonian citizen is an exercise of mental health to make guilty people from Madrid.

Well, as probably you know the one responsible for collecting the money and distributing it is the central government, not political parties. We do not look towards Madrid, you always put Madrid in the middle. Actually we do not care about Spain, we just want to be our own country. And the only exercise of mental health using catalans as a targets has been more used by the spaniards always, principally to get votes for the elections.
And i can tell you where the money went: high speed trains that do not go anywhere, yes "anywhere", airports without planes, spending money and time against productive policies, etc... These are the reasons why we want to leave Spain, probably this will be the best exercise of mental health for us and for our next generations.

Well, as probably you know the one responsible for collecting the money and distributing it is the central government, not political parties. We do not look towards Madrid, you always put Madrid in the middle. Actually we do not care about Spain, we just want to be our own country. And the only exercise of mental health using catalans as a targets has been more used by the spaniards always, principally to get votes for the elections.
And i can tell you where the money went: high speed trains that do not go anywhere, yes "anywhere", airports without planes, spending money and time against productive policies, etc... These are the reasons why we want to leave Spain, probably this will be the best exercise of mental health for us and for our next generations.

Both Balearic Islands and Madrid pay more money than Catalonia and they don't cry so much than you do. You should know that yesterday Rajoy has given Catalonia 485 million euros, that should have been for the Basque-country, in order to pay the next three months of catalonian bills. This amount of money is not from Catalonia because Catalonia has left to pay to Spain the ordinary taxes since 2006. And this is the bankrup problem: your goverment decide what to do with the 75% of your money, and you have bakrup by yourselves. Madrid only decide over the 45% of its money, please, do you really think Spain is the monster? It's a good idea give the own faults to the others.

Gripau, facts are relevant. The Catalan gov. actually manages directly a signifcant amount of taxes (50% of income tax generated there If I remember well). And the previous catalan gov. was an unmitigated disaster (only a fool will not recognise this). Now you can close your eyes and think that nationalists are superior and paradise will be won in independence but the hard truth is that the nationalist governments in Catalunya have a big share of responsibility for the situation. I wonder how you will live when you cannot blame Madrit for all this paranoia.

If catalonian people may decide the independence, Eire should be independent too. I dislike the way that everyone talks about Catalonia, when only the 20% of the population wants the independence. What do we make with the other 80%? British newspapers only want one thing: a sick euro, a sick Europe and a strong pound. And also they need a sick and poor Spain to declare themselves and their anglo-saxon cartoon-mind the leadership of the deadth-proof Europe they never wanted to defend.

Eire is already independent, Eire is Ireland. I guess you mean North Ireland?
You can dislike whatever you want, but there are more than 50% of Catalan people that want the independence. But this is a stupid argument since the Spanish government does not allow to make a referendum to be able to check it. This is the lack of democracy!!

Where did you get that figure of 20% in favour of independence? As the "democratic Spanish government won't allow an referendum, the only thing we have to go on are opinion polls, unreliable as they are, and they have NEVER shown figures of this magnitude. Cuurent polls show support to be just over 51% and rising.

Where did you get that figure of 20% in favour of independence? As the "democratic Spanish government won't allow an referendum, the only thing we have to go on are opinion polls, unreliable as they are, and they have NEVER shown figures of this magnitude. Cuurent polls show support to be just over 51% and rising.

Lack of democracy? I dont agree, we have free elections every four yrs, but no party ever includes independence as part of its program. Its lack of courage and honesty on the side of nationalist parties the problem, pelease go ahead, explain how an independent catalonian will be Richer and a better democracy

Lack of democracy? I dont agree, we have free elections every four yrs, but no party ever includes independence as part of its program. Its lack of courage and honesty on the side of nationalist parties the problem, pelease go ahead, explain how an independent catalonian will be Richer and a better democracy

Lack of democracy? I dont agree, we have free elections every four yrs, but no party ever includes independence as part of its program. Its lack of courage and honesty on the side of nationalist parties the problem, please go ahead, explain how an independent catalonian will be Richer and a better democracy