Welcome to HVAC-Talk.com, a non-DIY site and the ultimate Source for HVAC Information & Knowledge Sharing for the industry professional! Here you can join over 150,000 HVAC Professionals & enthusiasts from around the world discussing all things related to HVAC/R. You are currently viewing as a NON-REGISTERED guest which gives you limited access to view discussions

To gain full access to our forums you must register; for a free account. As a registered Guest you will be able to:

Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts.

I can see the comfort level with 22 but it seems to me that being open to what the changes are is the only smart choice. Again, Im not advcating one over the other but suggesting the thought process changes soon. As I posted ealier (page 2), the dates are set and according to at least one supplier suggests that the production may be limited in 2015 which means the availability may drop and price may increase. Isnt the system you install today likely to be around come 2015?

Is there any likelyhood that at least an option should be given to the one who will have to pay for repaires on such an animal? What about 2009? Are you going to install all R-22 systems then knowing your only a few years away from limited supplies?

The refrigerant mfg's have two choices as it goes. They can produce a product like R-22 for as long as they can legally and charge as much for it as possible. -OR- they can drop the line completely and concentrate on current products. They can't be mandated to make the product. On the otherhand their largest customers are the OEM of equipment. Once the OEM's stop buying it, this changes the market comletely and now you are servicing a unit just installed with a product that may be fairly pricey.

All I am saying is that if you sold a system to me, without having given me the option when you knew the change was coming, I would be a little upset to say the least.

I dont have a crystal ball and neither do you but we do have calendars and know there is legislation that has dates that are not that far out.

And remember that most of the major manufactures have invested I'm sure way over $1 billion (yes, with a "B") to engineer and develop their product lines around the upcoming changes and around R410A, for you, the contractor, to make an informed decision about why you should be comfortable making the changeover to R410A.

I also teach R410 classes, just did one last week in Detroit, and am amazed about how little know about 2006 and R410A in general. I have taught well over 1,000 techs about the use and benefits of R410A, so have seen my share of the questions, including the composition, glide and charging questions.

Yes, we all have a comfort zone we work in, but unless you do not try working with it, you will never get experience with it.

Right now, there is too much invested in R410 to make a change, and there are not any proven refrigerants to make a change to. 2010 is coming awfully fast. Start working with the R410 classes. Get the training.

ICP is doing full 2006 training, including a 410A class in 31 cities around the USA. Sign up for the class. It will be the best 6-1/2 hours you have spent. I have been to one already and will be visiting and participating in 6 more.

Rooftop Unit

We recently had to replace a rooftop unit(changed out for one with heat) in our plant. I inquired whether we could get it with R410AA, since with proper care and maintenance it will last more than 15 years. They told me that that one is not available at this point. I talked to three vendors. I know with residential a/c, one can easily get R410A. What bothers me is that unless a dropin replacement is available for this system, we will have to purchase a new unit again in 15 years. All of the other existing RTUs we have are between 5 and 20 years old. 15 years from now. I forsee R22 being as high as R12 is now which runs between $700-$800 for a 30 lb jug. In the industry R134A replaced R12 and R404A replaced R502. Why is not conceiveble for a R22 replacement to be in the works that is ozone friendly? I understand with residential a/c it is easier to change the evaporator coil when changing out the condenser unit and it also makes the financial sense to do this to take advantage of the higher SEER rating of the new unit, but in the industrial/commercial world that would strike me as being prohibitly expensive to many businesses.

You should be looking at replacement units every 15 years anyway in commercial rooftops, or at least budget for them.

Right now, the mfg's are concentrating on getting 13 SEER implimented on the scale it needs to be. Concentrating on rooftops and 410A will follow I am sure once this year passes.

There are drop in refrigerasnts for 22 as it stands, but they wont be used in new equipment. If you can tolerate the slight capacity loss and efficiency losses they will serve your older equipment just fine as long as you arent under warranty.

I think what drives the opinions of most contractors is not so much a lack of knowledge or experience with R410a as much as does cost. I know, or at least contemplate that in years to come R22 prices will likely escalate as did R12 prices and 410a prices should come down. However, today R410a prices are 3-4 times higher than 22. Now, if supply and demand is in effect here and so few are currently unwilling to promote R410a products why are prices so exorbitant? One thing that those of here who do not work on and install this equipment day in and day out may fail to remember is that if the system does develop a leak, the part or parts in question are covered under warranty but the cost of refrigerant, driers, recovery, nitrogen, and labor are not covered by standard factory warranties. Some will try to promote extended warranties as a means to offset this cost to the customer and/or contractor but that's a completely different argument for a different day.

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action....Mark Twain

I also teach R410 classes, just did one last week in Detroit, and am amazed about how little know about 2006 and R410A in general. I have taught well over 1,000 techs about the use and benefits of R410A, so have seen my share of the questions, including the composition, glide and charging questions.

2006 has absolutely nothing to do w/ 410.

2006 is about efficiency, wheather we need it or not.

please explain the "use and benefits" of 410.

i'm not trying to argue with anyone here just trying to figure out what the government is mandating, and why.

Main benefit of R410a is that it doesnt harm the enviroment like 22 does, contains no Chlorine. Also it doesnt produce phosgene gas like 22 does when it burns. And I know everyone has gotten a whiff of that crap. That in itself is enough to make me want to use 410a all the time.

410a is an HFC, not a CFC, this is the whole o-zone depleation thing. Its the Clorine molecule that's the bad guy according to the experts. R410A has a similar capacity and efficiency (slightly better) as R-22 and it works at virtually the same saturation temperatures. There is no other alternative that will provide all this and leave most of what we do unchanged. As long as you are dealing with the saturation temperatures insted of the pressure there is no real adjustment. Many argue about drop ins but unless they want to deal with even larger equipment, they simply cannot get the efficiencies mandated. Consider the size of the stuff we complain about now and add 30%. What closet are you going to stick that air handler in?

This is not an efficiency issue like the 13 SEER mandate (DOE), but one for the environment (The EPA). You can argue about its effectiveness but it doesnt change the powers that be. Many other industries and household products are affected as well. The kicker is that there is no coordination or consideration from one government agency to the other. Sorry to say, but the FBI cant talk to the CIA and the NYPD cant talk to the FDNY either. Would you expect anything different from two less effective buerocracies?

We all know it costs more today, but who here, by a show of hands, wants to personally garantee similar price differences in 4 years? How about 10 years? And since when does the dealer (or should he) absorb the increases? That is simply something that is passed along. It might seem somewhat bold but if you make say 10% on 2 bucks you cleared 20 cents. If you make 10% on 12 bucks you made $1.20. Thats 6 times the profit. Why would that scare a service company? (keep your own numbers to yourself and do the math).

Again, allow the customer to decide and get used to it now, or be scrapping to catch up when its too late.

Originally posted by duct dr Also it doesnt produce phosgene gas like 22 does when it burns. And I know everyone has gotten a whiff of that crap. That in itself is enough to make me want to use 410a all the time.

Its worse then 22 when it burns.
But, theres no reason not to recover, before brazing, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.