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What I liked about this vid was that the instructor kept a checking hand and also that he didn't let his inner arm point towards the knife. Even on the last exercise where he rotated, if the attacker suddenly pulled the knife backwards, the cut would be on the outside of the Instructor's arm.

It's things like that, that I don't see in Chris' or David's vids. Their attention to the cutting edge doesn't hold. If anyone rewatches those vids with a critical eye, they'll notices far too many times where the inner arm is presented to the knife edge, a falling uke's knife drags a part of the body, a wrist is exposed, etc. From what I can see, it's because the attention is more focused on getting an "aikido" technique and not on the knife edge. Sure, it looks good, but is it worth getting fatally cut?

With my students, I teach the blade to my women students almost immediately. I wait a minimum of two years before I allow my men students to touch a live blade.

The issue is more physiological than psychological. A man with secrete greater amounts of adrenelin and cortisol when faced with a fight or flight situation. This translates to lack of control in the body and specifically the "male" right hand.

Women on the other hand are in greater control of their emotions given the lower levels of hormone given the stimulus of danger.

As such, knife with create greater perception of danger than stick.

I find this fascinating, as an empirical statement I agree with it from my own observations. Adrenaline surge produces a loss of control. And yet a powerful hormonal response is necessary to mobilize the body's resources under threat. I find this aspect deeply interesting because of a few relevant facts.

One -- the measure of highest warriorhood, both East and West has always been put in terms of sincere and deep devotion -- a species of selfless love. This is as true of chivalric romance as it is of samurai cherry blossoms. SEAL training was mentioned a little while back in the thread. Recently the Medal of Honor was awarded posthumously to MA2 Michael Monsoor. His commendation is a preeminent example of this motivation -- he threw himself on grenade saving several member of his team.

Two -- The hormone associated with the physiological aspects of love and devotion is oxytocin. Females are more naturally responsive to oxytocin than males. Some of those who are interested in the physiological role of intra-muscular myofascia and other may be interested to note that these tissues do not respond to adrenaline, but they do respond to oxytocin. If substituted for the adrenal cascade through appropriate habituation, oxytocin mobilization in threat situations would not result in the same losses of control as adrenaline mobilization. Protective motivation is not, primarily, meant to destroy the source of harm, which can be as uncontrollably destructive as one cares to make it. This makes sense, becasue the object of the oxytocin motivation is to protect the other from harm. That requires far more care in order to place the subject of protection reliably beyond threat. Eliminating rivals for resources (the more purely male competitive model) is wholly different, and control is not necessarily a premium where sheer force will serve.

Third -- and this fits with the primary role of the irimi concept in aikido is that unlike adrenaline "fight or flight" -- noting the fundamentally ambiguous and uncommitted nature of this state -- there would be no "flight" involved in oxytocin mediated protective action. It is an unambiguously and wholly committed state -- it may not be "fight," but if "fight" it becomes, it becomes all "fight" -- until the subject of protection is safe. And for this to work, the subject of my protection can never be "me," per se.

O Sensei seems to have plainly emphasized this aspect by demanding that all aikido training be non-competitive, and by stating, in no uncertain terms that true budo is love, and that aikido was training in the spirit of loving protection. Protection of our opponent, even. It makes complete sense in this perspective.

Protection not defense -- that seems the key to this spiritual - motivational - hormonal approach -- (call it what you will). It is materially and physiologically different from the typical competitive or more stressed models of training. Not that we don't need those in some fashion to test where it breaks down and we know what to go back to work on some more. That does not mean it needs to be namby-pamby training either -- Mother Tiger acts in love when stepping between her cubs and harm, and batting her beloved rather roughly out of the way if need be, but you don't want to be on the WRONG side of that equation...

This drill : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F9SpwvMrg&NR=1 looks good if you do it like the guy on the right. Notice how his free hand is covering even when he's using his knife hand to circle the opponent's knife-arm down and round. His assistant isn't so careful so don't copy him. That looks like a decent drill for a knife duel once it gets into medium range and if you don't want to clinch.

O Sensei seems to have plainly emphasized this aspect by demanding that all aikido training be non-competitive, and by stating, in no uncertain terms that true budo is love, and that aikido was training in the spirit of loving protection. Protection of our opponent, even. It makes complete sense in this perspective.

Eric,

After WWII, "Draeger, a military officer, maritial arts practitioner and historian was put on a committee that decided which martials arts could and could not be practiced in Occupied Japan.

The revised Constituiton of the Japanese people specifically, stated that only "defensive protective force" could be formed in lieu of an offensive army.

Thus, all the more commonly known martial arts judo, jujitsu, karate, aikido owe their current popularity and safety from extinction to Draeger.

The point is that the "non-violence" espoused by many of the "masters" after WWII came as a reaction to the capitulation of their country.

As to the emission of hormore, my point of view as little to do with advocating one philosophy vs. another. My concern is more with the observation of nature and how it affects our daily life and in particular my practice of martial arts. Certainly, we must be vary of our social and political "beliefs, dogma, and prejudices" when we analyze said scientific observations.

As such, I have a point of contention regarding women and their perceived "non-violent" propensities. In fact, the female of the species all through out nature does most of the "hunting" and thus most of the killing in nature.

But, nonetheless, we have found many points of agreement regarding the physiology, and how it affects our martial arts.

Mark,
you're using some outdated info there. May I recommend "Contemporary knife targeting" by Christopher Grosz and Michael D. Janich.

All this theory is nice, but can anyone actually do it???

A good book Chris and... Been There Done That... With a few months of proper training to polish off the rust I could do it again perhaps... Though I think my reflexes have slowed down quite a bit.LOL We look forward to you sharing your knowledge and experiance in that regard when you visit.

The point is that in Frank's video, he has space between his body and his opponents. I cover the distance to "zone" my opponents weapons (e.g. knife) to make sure he can't strike me.

Second, notice how Frank's knife leaves the body. It is inefficient. Once my knife touches my opponent's arm, it trys never to leave his body. In this way, I am hitting him with "killing blows".

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I thought it was you. I understand what you're saying Joseph about the difference in the two techniques but it's Apples and Oranges IMO. Again one is a basic hand check drill against an armed opponent. Believe me that Frank has very similar "closing" techniques... In yours you are demonstrating your irimi and "killing" blows...Can you point me to a vid showing a basic drill of yours using a live blade?

Thanks again for for sharing your knowledge with us Joseph.

We are on the same page...I feel the only way to defend yourself against a knife (if you have no other option other than your fists LOL) Is to enter and strike aka Irimi and Atemi at the same time...

A good reality check for us Aikidoka is to realize that unless you train with someone like Joseph you are bound to lose 99% of any encounters with a skilled knife fighter. thankfully 99% of us will never have such an encounter in our lifetime. let me tell you... being stabbed and cut fooking hurts..

I used to train hard in this stuff when my survival depended on having this skillset but now I am happy to end 99% of all the conflicts I encounter during the day with a smile and an offer to restore the harmony between us. that is why Aikido is so "effective' for a guy like me.

What I liked about this vid was that the instructor kept a checking hand and also that he didn't let his inner arm point towards the knife. Even on the last exercise where he rotated, if the attacker suddenly pulled the knife backwards, the cut would be on the outside of the Instructor's arm.

It's things like that, that I don't see in Chris' or David's vids. Their attention to the cutting edge doesn't hold. If anyone rewatches those vids with a critical eye, they'll notices far too many times where the inner arm is presented to the knife edge, a falling uke's knife drags a part of the body, a wrist is exposed, etc. From what I can see, it's because the attention is more focused on getting an "aikido" technique and not on the knife edge. Sure, it looks good, but is it worth getting fatally cut?

Mark

Where's the "train as you fight/fight as you train" slogan? Aren't these guys cutting each other's wrists/arms every time, taking it in the gut, etc.? Of course they are, but folks make all kinds of allowances for training purposes - because you have to. One should never be so locked into a training regime. To do so is to make it doctrine, and that means it will never be capable of addressing things at the speed of life.

Where's the "train as you fight/fight as you train" slogan? Aren't these guys cutting each other's wrists/arms every time, taking it in the gut, etc.? Of course they are, but folks make all kinds of allowances for training purposes - because you have to. One should never be so locked into a training regime. To do so is to make it doctrine, and that means it will never be capable of addressing things at the speed of life.

Hi David,
It's a good question, so I'll take the hit for this one. We all know that there are two sides to training -- uke and tori. As uke, we train to be smart attackers. As tori, we train to stay alive. So, in a two person training exercise, we are training both roles for each person. Let's take person A. Person A starts as uke, so they train to attack. As some of the vids will attest, and depending on the level of participants, Person A attacks in a smart manner. Beginners usually get simple, direct attacks to arteries, veins, major organs, etc. Person B does his job. Then Person B attacks and now Person A gets to train as tori. Staying alive means the knife isn't near the inside arm, neck, inside leg, major organs, etc. As both people progress, the training exercise gets more detailed such as feints, attack by drawing, simultaneous attack with knife and other arm/leg, etc.

Hi David,
It's a good question, so I'll take the hit for this one. We all know that there are two sides to training -- uke and tori. As uke, we train to be smart attackers. As tori, we train to stay alive. So, in a two person training exercise, we are training both roles for each person. Let's take person A. Person A starts as uke, so they train to attack. As some of the vids will attest, and depending on the level of participants, Person A attacks in a smart manner. Beginners usually get simple, direct attacks to arteries, veins, major organs, etc. Person B does his job. Then Person B attacks and now Person A gets to train as tori. Staying alive means the knife isn't near the inside arm, neck, inside leg, major organs, etc. As both people progress, the training exercise gets more detailed such as feints, attack by drawing, simultaneous attack with knife and other arm/leg, etc.

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm all for that. More than that actually, as I think it is lowest-common-denominator/amateurish level stuff to not be able to adjust oneself from training to combat and vice versa. So, obviously, I allow for allowances due to the aims of one's training.

But my point was the contradiction. One either buys into the notion of "fight as your train/train as you fight" or one doesn't, especially when you try to adopt the position that training paradigms are inescapable. I don't buy into that notion. Hence, I can accept the basic nage/uke dynamic and also the give and take paradigms of Filipino training, etc. Just can't buy into the inconsistency demonstrated in your posts thus far, especially when they are claiming a greater insight into what happens when things get "real." There are ways of training wherein one could be consistent or at least a lot more consistent with the "train as you fight, etc." slogan than what goes on in the nage/uke dynamic or the various knife flows folks practice, etc. What you just supported above ain't it though.

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm all for that. More than that actually, as I think it is lowest-common-denominator/amateurish level stuff to not be able to adjust oneself from training to combat and vice versa. So, obviously, I allow for allowances due to the aims of one's training.

But my point was the contradiction. One either buys into the notion of "fight as your train/train as you fight" or one doesn't, especially when you try to adopt the position that training paradigms are inescapable. I don't buy into that notion. Hence, I can accept the basic nage/uke dynamic and also the give and take paradigms of Filipino training, etc. Just can't buy into the inconsistency demonstrated in your posts thus far, especially when they are claiming a greater insight into what happens when things get "real." There are ways of training wherein one could be consistent or at least a lot more consistent with the "train as you fight, etc." slogan than what goes on in the nage/uke dynamic or the various knife flows folks practice, etc. What you just supported above ain't it though.

d

I think the Internet isn't doing us justice here. We're probably talking past each other. One of these days, I'll make it out there and stop by to visit in person. The closest I'll be this year is San Diego sometime in Oct-Nov. Not a given yet, but probably. I'll see what I can do to free up some time.

The attack occurs at around 3:12 into the video.
What was interesting for me was the officer's response. which was to irimi and control the head immediately, slamming the attackers head onto the counter.. after this he controlled the knife hand as his fellow officers came to his aid.
Here's a still of the instant of attack:

The attack occurs at around 3:12 into the video.
What was interesting for me was the officer's response. which was to irimi and control the head immediately, slamming the attackers head onto the counter.. after this he controlled the knife hand as his fellow officers came to his aid.
Here's a still of the instant of attack:

Dr Cito,

Nice hearing from you.

(My novel "Journeys Within: THE PRINCESS ARISEN will be out shortly on Amazon.com and Barnes and Nobel)

I think the Internet isn't doing us justice here. We're probably talking past each other. One of these days, I'll make it out there and stop by to visit in person. The closest I'll be this year is San Diego sometime in Oct-Nov. Not a given yet, but probably. I'll see what I can do to free up some time.

That would be cool - we'd love to have you visit. Thanks for the offer, please feel invited and eternally welcome.