Daasyochid:If they made a mistake because of some type of conspiracy theory, and there wasn’t a body, etc., you might be right.

However, the reason they think he’s alive is because they think he can’t die, because he’s divine. That’s apikorsus.

That is simply not true. None of them say that. The reason they insist he’s alive is precisely because, like you, they reject the idea that moshiach can be from the deceased, and since they can’t let go of the idea that he will be moshiach they have convinced themselves that the funeral was an illusion, like Moshe Rabbenu’s funeral that the Jews saw at Mt Sinai, and he is really living in 770, hidden from unclean eyes, in keeping with what is found in the Ramban and in the Zohar that Moshiach will go through a period of hiding. That’s crazy, but it’s not apikorsus. They fully agree that the Rebbe is capable of dying, after he has done his job and brought the geulah to physical reality.

Rebbetzin, Rebbi came home for kiddush, not havdala. That he was motzi his family, and therefore had to have a din of a living person at those moments, is in Sefer Chassidim. But the rest of the time he had a din of a meis.

In general, the definition of “dead” when we talk of tzadikim is vague. It’s clear that tzadikim are capable of things in “death” that most people are not. Not only Rebbi coming home to make kiddush, and all chachomim moving their lips when their torah is repeated, but also R Elozor br Shimon lying dead in his attic for years, answering shaylos!

(Though even normal people are capable of things that goyim and apikorsim deny. Yidden believe that the dead are aware of what happens to their bodies and at their graves, and that if you visit their graves and speak to them they listen.)

But they are still “meisim” because that is what the Torah calls them. Avrohom and Yitzchok are meisim. Moshe is a meis. R Elozor br Shimon is a meis, and was one even when he was in the attic. The only two people whose demise is recorded in Tanach without the word “meis” being used are Yaacov and Dovid. The gemoro discusses what exactly this means, and the conclusion is not clear, but Rashi understands it literally, that Yaacov and Dovid are lying in their graves, alive in the normal sense, even though they have nothing to eat, etc.

(On the other hand there are contexts in which the Torah uses “meisim” to mean resho’im, even when they’re physically alive, and “chayim” to mean tzadikim even when they’re physically dead.)

Also see the Shaloh on “Yaacov lo meis”, who explains that Yisroel died but Yaacov didn’t, because he had already died years earlier and had come back to life, so without Yisroel he was like people will be after techiyas hameisim.

There is no reason to believe that the Jesus of the NT was at all distant from Judaism. Nor that his talmidim who thought he was moshiach were distant from Judaism. The Jewish opposition to the “minim” doesn’t appear until after the new movement had been taken over by Greek antisemites, and the original Jewish leaders had died or been thrown out. That’s when we get Birchas Haminim.

(PS, to forestall arguments: the “Jewish sinner” whose spirit Onkelos called up is not named. It could be anyone. The “Yeshu Hanotzri” in mesechta Sanhedrin cannot be the Jesus of the NT; their stores are completely different, and he was at least 100 years too early. And “Ben Stodo” was about 100 years too late.)

Daas Yochid – “However, the reason they think he’s alive is because they think he can’t die, because he’s divine. That’s apikorsus.”

Twisting!

1. he’s alive is because they think he can’t die – no, they think he didn’t die – why do you make up that he “can’t” die?! they believe factually he didn’t.

2. because he’s divine – no, because he didn’t die just as we are alive (and yet not divine) so too they believe he is alive (yet not divine) – why do you make uo that he is divine?! Anyone that is alive is divine?!

3. That’s apikorsus – no, believing that a person is alive is not one of the 13 Ikrim of Ani Amamin. We are not required to believe that everyone must die. To believe that a human can live forever is not kefira.

You simply make up things as you build an imaginary building in mid air, rent out rooms and then complain that the imaginary tenants aren’t paying you their rent on time – ganovim!

Re: asking the dead to pray for us, this is minhag kol yisroel for all the generations. I know there are seforim that object, and say we should daven directly to Hashem in the niftar’s zechus, but the Jewish practise throughout all the generations is against them. They are like those who object to “machnisei rachamim” and “sholom aleichem”; the accepted halocho is not like them.

In particular, the Zohar explicitly rejects their objections, and says ודורש אל המתים refers to resho’im, who are considered “meisim” even when they are physically alive. It explicitly says when the world needs rain we should take a sefer torah to the cemetery and directly ask the meisim to intercede with Hashem to give us rain. It then says the local meisim who have been so alerted go to Chevron and inform those buried there about our plight, and together they go to the higher worlds and inform everyone there, and everyone prays for us, and Hashem makes it rain.

This is the Zohar, which klal yisroel has accepted as part of the Torah, so one who denies it is a kofer.

because he’s divine – no, because he didn’t die just as we are alive (and yet not divine) so too they believe he is alive (yet not divine) – why do you make uo that he is divine?! Anyone that is alive is divine?!

They say something which normally means someone is alive, and they mean he’s alive, but I shouldn’t object to it because it can be twisted to mean something else?

Not twisted. It can mean something else, so you should simply understand it that way. What they mean by it is their problem, not yours. So long as what they are saying is not objectionable, you have no right to object to it.

Not twisted. It can mean something else, so you should simply understand it that way. What they mean by it is their problem, not yours. So long as what they are saying is not objectionable, you have no right to object to it.

It is twisting. And I have every right to object to them saying and meaning something dangerous and wrong despite the fact that there is a different way of understanding the words through distortion.

Maybe I shouldn’t object to the sign LerntMinTeyrah posted? I’m sure you can find away to distort the meaning.

The fact that you think you can compare Rabbeinu Hakadosh (and Yaakov Avinu, Eliyahu Hanavi, etc.) to the Lubavicher Rebbe is a huge disrespect to them. Chazal tell us that Rabbeinu Hakadosh was visible, and I accept that 100%, but when a bunch of nut jobs are in denial about the Lubavicher Rebbe based on their boichs , I call it out for what it is.

Wasn’t there also “death certificates” (or the equivalent acknowledgement and recording of death) and burials and graves ? There is a precedent, but admit we don’t fully “understand” it in our minds, because it defies our logic.

DaasYochid
“Am I a koifer if I say מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים?
Am I a koifer if I say צדיקים במיתתן נקראים חיים?

No”

So if I say the Rebbe is alive because of these two quotes, am I a koifer?
Most Lubavitchers agree that the Rebbe was passed away,(besides a few that are living in denial) and they also write זי”ע, yes we did kria vechulu, but he can still be alive, it’s not a stira, a death certificate is what is koiveiah a person that he passed away, Torah is koiveiah.
So if your to call me a koifer because of a death certificate, you need major help.

So if I say the Rebbe is alive because of these two quotes, am I a koifer?

You don’t say he’s alive because of those quotes. You use those quotes to defend your mishugas that he’s alive.

it’s not a stira, a death certificate is what is koiveiah a person that he passed away, Torah is koiveiah.

The Torah says he’s dead. Had he been married, his wife would have been an almanah. His property passed on to his closest relatives. In this case there is no stira between the death certificate and the Torah, but there is a stirah between saying he’s alive and the Torah.

“Disclaimer: I am not Lubavitch or even Chassidic, but I accept all frum Jews and c”v to spread hate and mock others just because I don’t understand or follow their ways)”

You give yourself way too much credit. Your posts carry no shortage of hatefulness and pretty one sided at that. The fact that you seem to believe your motives to be different doeant change what is coming out of your mouth, it is merely clouding your vision.

Wolf, that’s a true point. I made the same point regarding how Lubavichers who claim the Rebbe is still alive are contradicting the Torah (although his wife has already passed away, so that wasn’t a practical difference).

Wolf – Is it your contention then that the widow of a talmid chochom cannot re-marry because her husband’s lips move in the kever, proving that he is, in fact, still alive?

Obviousley there is various applications and definitions of the word “alive” and “dead”. Reso’im are called “dead” even when alive (an oxymoron) but do Chazal mean to say that their wives are free to remarry without a get?! Chazal say that tzadikim are called alive even when dead (again an oxymoron) but are their wives free to remarry?!

There is an old discussion among Achronim if “Rabi” (kidding) Eliyohu Hanovee’s wife was free to remarry or does she remain married after his departure?! Reb Elchonon (Wasserman) has a shtikel on it too in Kovetz Shiurim

But to get to the point, the talmid chochom has a “din” of dead to free his wife to remarry, but he is not dead like a normal corpse, as he still has a connection with this world and interacts with it..

“You don’t say he’s alive because of those quotes. You use those quotes to defend your mishugas that he’s alive.”

Don’t tell me why we say he is alive, go check up the Rebbe sichos, and see for yourself exactly what the Rebbe said on the frierdiker Rebbe, it’s exactly from these quotes. And the same is the way we hold regarding the Rebbe.

Go check up the meforshim on them. And stop getting your education from other websites.
Stop being a moron picking and choosing to hear what you want to hear, and learn what you want to learn, and twist what you want to twist.
All we have is the words of the Rebbe. And what Torah says on tzaikim. Torah decides what life and dead is.

Let me get this straight, you guys believe he could possibly die, but just happens to still be alive and be the oldest person on earth by now (I think), and just happens to be hiding where nobody can find him?

I know your point is that it’s only kefira if they believe he CAN’T die due to divinity, but at what point is the proof just in the pudding? Will it still not be kefira on his 200th “birthday?” Is it not common sense that he would be dead by now unless you believe something divine is going on?

If not, can we get a concrete date/year at which it becomes OK for us to say it’s kefira to believe he’s still alive? His 150th birthday? His 170th birthday? There has to be a cut-off.

Is yakov avinu still alive now? Or since it’s so many years later he by now he passed away?
How do you explain יעקב אבינו לא מת. מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים. צדיקים במיתתן נקראים חיים
At what point is it’s kifira if I hold that yakov is still alive?