Saeb Erekat is a longtime member
of Fatah and the chief negotiator for the PLO. He is also a member of
the Palestinian parliament, representing Jericho. He has promoted a
peaceful solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict since the mid-1980s.
When teaching at An-Najah University in the West Bank in the 1980s,
he opened an exchange program, bringing Israeli students to a Palestinian
university.

“I ask Israel to open their eyes
and see what’s developing in the West Bank. It’s a picture of racism,
a new apartheid worse than in South Africa, and it will lead to an enlarged
cycle of violence. My job is to save the lives of Palestinians and Israelis,
and I don’t see how to do that without a meaningful peace process.
--Saeb Erekat

Kate Seelye: So, what do you think of this Hamas
victory?

Saeb Erekat: I think Hamas sailed to victory not because
they had a program of economic recovery or peace or social whatever
… their campaign was Fatah’s corrupt government and Israel’s unilateralism.
Israel left Gaza not because of Saeb Erekat’s negotiation, but because
of their heroic resistance.

The Americans and the Israelis are
calling the Hamas win a disaster.

I think the Americans and the Israelis
must try to respect the choice of the Palestinian people. And to recognize
that they don’t have the exclusive rights to what’s wrong and what’s
right. We are in strong opposition. We are determined -- my party, myself
as a council member -- to maintain the social fabric of the Palestinian
people, to maintain our commitment to peace. The Israelis want to negotiate?
They have nothing to do with the government, the executive council.
I’m their partner in the negotiation. I’m the PLO. I invited them
unreservedly to resume permanent status negotiations and abandon unilateralism
and dictation. Arafat was not a partner after having recognized Israel.
President Abbas is not a partner. Is Israel seeking a Palestinian partner?
Or are they seeking a nonpartner to accept their policies as faits accomplis?
C’mon …

How do you see it?

These people aren’t serious about permanent
status negotiations or end game. They want to dictate my future on me.
They want to dictate their borders on me. They want to dictate the fate
of Jerusalem on me. “C’mere, boy, this is what we dictated to you
and this is what you must accept. If you don’t accept, you can join
bin Laden and the rest of the terrorists in the world. If you accept,
then you become a partner.” Well, it’s not going to work this way.
I don’t have a neon sign saying “stupid” over my head.

What do you have to negotiate with?

I don’t have an army, it’s true.
I don’t have a navy, it’s true. I don’t have an economy, it’s
true. I may be the most disadvantaged negotiator since Adam negotiated
with Eve. But don’t they realize that if they want to make peace with
the Palestinians and if we want to realize President Bush’s vision
of a two-state solution, they need me? They need a partner on this side.
They need a pen that can sign agreements. Since 1948 -- maybe the exception
was 1956 with the Suez crisis -- all the American governments do is come
to Israel, see what Israel can do, what they can’t do, and shape their
policies on the basis of what’s possible. Today, what’s necessary
from President Bush is a policy of “what’s needed.” Today, the
U.S. borders are no longer with Canada and Mexico. Today, the U.S. borders
are with Turkey, Iran, the Gulf, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan -- they’re
here. It’s American kids who are dying in Iraq, Afghanistan. … To
fight and defeat the likes of bin Laden, I don’t think you can do
it with military means. Two things are needed to do it: democracy and
peace between Palestinians and Israelis. Anyone who says Arabs aren’t
ready for democracy, in my opinion, is a racist. We know President Bush’s
parameters, we know his vision -- it’s a two-state solution on the 1967
borders. Let’s resume negotiations -- let’s do it!

But you now have a majority in government
that refuses to deal with Israel.

Look, I want this government to recognize
the two-state resolution, to recognize all the relevant U.N. Security
Council resolutions. I want them to accept the road map and Arab peace
plan of 2002. But having this government’s refusal to negotiate should
not be a pretext for Israel because the PLO is the counterpart to Israel
in any negotiation. Let’s say we reach an agreement on permanent status,
what will we do? Take it to the Palestinian Council for approval? No!
The PLO is not accountable to the [Security] Council and vice versa.
We will take it to a national referendum.

What kind of numbers?

I think we’ll get more than 70 percent --
in a genuine end game, permanent status for Israelis and Palestinians,
Jerusalem, settlements, borders, and refugees. If we’re telling Palestinians
and Israelis, “That’s it, we’re ending the conflict”; if we’re
telling Palestinians, “You can send your children to school without
worrying about them coming back”; if we’re telling Israelis, “You
don’t have to worry about suicide bombers” -- it will get 70 percent
in Israel and more among the Palestinians.

But how can Hamas not be part of this
equation?

Hamas is saying they are not responsible
for negotiations -- it’s the PLO that’s responsible. What do we have
to lose? Isn’t negotiating painfully for five years better than exchanging
bullets for five minutes? If they refuse this offer, a way out, the
two-state solution … if they refuse everything and they’re the geniuses
and we’re the wishful thinkers -- what does that tell you? What are
the Israelis going to do? Dictate the walls as permanent status, annex
the Jordan Valley, annex Jerusalem, drop the issue of refugees, turn
every town in the West Bank into a prison, have the World Food Program
distributing food so the Palestinian don’t starve? What do you think
this will do? It will undermine the Palestinian moderate camp and bury
it forever. Desperation will lead to desperate acts and will create
more violence, not only between Israelis and Palestinians, but in the
whole region, and the forces of extremism in this region will be crowned.
I don’t understand Israeli politicians who lack the courage to come
back to the negotiating table. Even before the Hamas victory, why did
they suspend the negotiations?

Are you calling on the Israelis to
talk to President Abbas?

President Abbas is the elected Palestinian
president. He’s the one with the mandate as head of the PLO Executive
Committee. Hamas cannot stop that. If a permanent status treaty is reached,
we will take it to the PNC [Palestinian National Committee] and then
to a public referendum. The results of the latest poll show that 60 percent
of those who voted for Hamas want a resumption of permanent status negotiations.

But some say the vote was a vote against
what little the peace process has achieved.

It was a vote in anger that the negotiations
were not taking place. What does Israel have to lose? If Abu Mazen [President
Mahmoud Abbas] is inviting them back to the table, to resume permanent
status negotiations, where the negotiations left off, in Tabah, in 2001,
what do they have to lose? Don’t they want to live in peace and security?
Yes. Do they want to live and let live? Yes. I’m in it for this -- I
don’t want my son to be a suicide bomber. I’m a father who’s sick
and tired of wondering, and I’m sure the Israeli fathers feel the
same. This is not living. We don’t have an alternative to negotiation.

Palestinians will say,
“What have 10 years of negotiations achieved?”

I have not wasted a minute of these 10
years. This is a unique conflict. This is not the borders of Ecuador
and Peru, of Canada and the United States, the merger of banks. These
are the issues that make Palestinians and Israelis breathe. These are
the issues of gods and prophets. There is the Church of the Holy Sepulcher,
the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Wailing Wall, where people of three faiths go
with their hearts and souls. Nothing in life is more important to these
people than these things. Now we sit down and try to solve this problem
of Jerusalem. In Jericho, I look from the window of my home -- where I
was born -- and I see the place where Jesus did his fast for 40 days,
where he was tempted by the devil. In Jerusalem there is the place where
the Prophet Mohammad ascended to heaven. We are a people whose history
is bound up with history. We haven’t been wasting time on the peace
process. We are turning every stone.

Ten years ago, it was “‘what Palestinians?”
They [Israelis] have recognized the existence of the Palestinian people.
They call the West Bank “the West Bank” -- they used to call it Judaea
and Samarria. They wanted Gaza to sink in the sea. Today all Israeli
parties recognize the Palestinians -- some on 1967 borders, some playing
games with walls. Making peace here is not about signing an agreement --
it’s about agreeing to change, to change their minds, the way they
think. Peace-making between Palestinians and Israelis is going to take
a new way of life, a new way of thinking, a new way of educating, a
new way of planting, a new way of cooperating. So to those who say,
“What did 10 years bring us, what can 10 years do with a system of
belief that for some people is 5,700 years, for others 2,000 years,
for Muslims some 1,600 years?” In 10 years … we have come a long
way.

I’m on the council in opposition and
I will oppose such policies of Zahar, but I won’t be the spokesperson
for Hamas. I’m just telling Hamas to put the interests of their people
above anything else. The slogans of the elections are yesterday. The
new reality: You are responsible. So take the Palestinian national interest
above anything else. Palestine is much more important than Iran, Syria,
all these axes in the Arab world. I’m urging Hamas to take the letter
of designation to Mr. Haniya, their prime minister, and to accept it
because in doing so, they will do themselves and the Palestinian people
the greatest favor. How they will shift, how they will move -- that’s
their business. But in opposition, I will make sure no one will be allowed
to touch our social fabric -- women’s freedoms, religious freedoms,
individual freedoms. We will stand tall for the peace process, supporting
a two-state solution and a negotiated settlement. They must understand
that being in government doesn’t give you the right to change the
lives of people. They can’t.

Can Fatah reform itself?

Absolutely. Fatah is no different from
any other party. It is subject to reform. It’s a great party. It’s
been leading the Palestinian movement for the last four decades. We’ve
created so many things, so many institutions -- we’re the ones who made
democracy in this region! We’re the ones transferring power in transparent
fashion, in peaceful fashion. Where do you see this in the Arab world?
C’mon, guys, give us a little credit! I’m not saying we’re perfect.

The European
Union has said it will cut funding. This will affect you.

One thing, you mention $700 million. I
don’t know where you get these figures. The United States has never
transferred directly to us $1 for our infrastructure. Neither did Europe.
Neither did Japan. I was the government minister for nine years. We
did schools, hospital, roads, water systems, working with the United
States -- they had their contractors working here, and they paid them
directly. The United States has never transferred a single dollar to
these projects through the [Palestinian] Authority. They did it through
their own NGOs. Europe uses NGOs. The Japanese have contracted through
the UNDP [United Nations Development Programme]. Why can’t we continue
doing this? Why this talk about collectively punishing the Palestinian
people? That’s not good.

How do you counter Israel’s policy
of unilateralism? What’s the plan?

Look, I was 12 years old when the Israeli
occupation came to my hometown, Jericho. I’m married now, with four
children. My twin daughters are 23. I’ll be a grandfather. And believe
me, Christian and Muslim Palestinians will continue to be Christian
and Muslim Palestinians. They won’t convert to Judaism and become
Israeli, and if they do, I don’t think they [the Israelis] will accept
them. And I don’t think Jews and Christians will convert to Islam
and become Palestinians. So what are the choices of Palestinians and
Israelis? Can some genius in Israel walk me through the year 2025? Look,
Israel has three options. They really feel that religion and history
and the River Jordan to the Mediterranean should be the land of Israel --
fine! But I want to be an equal citizen, with an equal vote. And they
say, “Oh, look at these evil Palestinians. They want to undermine
the Jewish nature of Israel!” Well, make up your mind. I’m offering
you a two-state solution and you’re saying no. You want Area A, a
settlement there, a settlement there, Jerusalem, you want to suffocate
me with your military machine, and you know that if it’s my word against
his in the Congress and the Senate, I don’t stand a chance. Who said
life was about fairness and justice? I don’t have money. I don’t
have a campaign. I don’t have votes. I’m a man of peace, that’s
all. I believe that my job is to save the lives of Israelis and Palestinians.
So that’s their second choice: a whole state called Israel -- let’s
have it. But I want my equal rights.

The third option, they should be ashamed
for even thinking about it. There are roads in the West Bank today that
I cannot use as a Palestinian, only Jews can use. Is that the option
Israel wants? As Jews, as people who suffered most in the history of
mankind at the hands of evil -- Hitler, bigotry, anti-Semitism. Is that
the Israel of 2006 that people want? That’s shameless.

They say it’s in the name of security.

In the worst apartheid in South Africa,
blacks were never prevented to use roads that whites use. “Wake up,”
I tell them. “I’m offering you a two-state solution. I’m offering
you peace. I’m offering you to come back to the negotiating table.”
The uniqueness of my conflict with the Israelis is that it cannot be
played as a zero sum game. It’s two winners or two losers, and two
losers we have been -- dictation, walls, settlements, occupation, bigotry,
racism. And winning is only through the path of peace and negotiation.
That’s what I’m offering them. And we can make it.

So if I win the elections in four years
time, will they talk to me? Or will they find a pretext that I’m not
a partner? President Arafat was the one to recognize the state of Israel’s
right to exist. He won a Nobel Peace Prize for this. He ended up [under]
siege because he was not a partner. Abu Mazen is the most dedicated
Palestinian and Arab I’ve ever met in my life -- to peace, reconciliation
and security. He was elected in January 2005, in one year to the legislative
elections of 2006. What did they [Israel] do? They did not even allow
him to buy the bullets for his bodyguards. And they consider him a nonpartner.
And, now, Hamas, a nonpartner. Were we partners yesterday?

Are you saying Israel is
partly to blame for Hamas coming to power?

No. What I’m saying is the major blame
is here. Fatah, us, the government. But, of course, Israel’s unilateral
steps, dictation, not achieving peace with us, abandoning the negotiations,
calling us nonpartners, have added to the Hamas victory. But I take
the big credit for the blame, the Palestinian Fatah Party. But Israel
can’t escape the blame. Unless Israel wants to treat itself as a country
that can’t make any mistakes -- fine. I’ll take the blame alone. But
I ask them to open their eyes and see if their policies -- turning towns
into prisons, building 471 road blocks -- if these are the policies of
far-sightedness and wisdom or the policies of short-sightedness and
failure. That I can’t answer. But I ask Israel to open their eyes
and see what’s developing in the West Bank. It’s not a good picture.
It’s a picture of racism, a new apartheid worse than in South Africa,
and it will lead to an enlarged cycle of violence. My job is to save
the lives of Palestinians and Israelis, and I don’t see how to do
that without a meaningful peace process.

This interview between Kate Seelye
and Saeb Erekat took place in Jericho in March 2006. It has
been edited for clarity.

About the Reporter

Kate Seelye is a Middle East
correspondent for Public Radio International’s “The World” and
a regular contributor to this Web site. Read more of Seelye’s dispatches
from the region and watch her May 2005 report from Lebanon and Syria
following the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik
Hariri.