Anyway, I wish you the best Trevor even though this is not the news I wanted to hear. I pray that you return to the Lord. You do seem like a sincere and honest person.

Thank you very much. I wish I could believe like I used to, but I just can't muster up the faith I used to have. Who knows? Maybe St. Tikhon (my patron saint) will appear in my dreams and punch me in the nose, and then set me on the straight and narrow!

That is why I left Church in the first place, but my belief in God was still strong. It was learning that I am just fine without God in my life that pushed me to question his existence, and then realizing the answer to that question.

One can adjust to many different situations, sure. Believe me...I lived essentially as an atheist (or I guess it would be better to say agnostic) for a period of about a decade after my mother passed away. I know all about feeling free from/to whatever. But we have a higher calling than feeling "fine" with wherever it is we are. As Fr. HLL rightly points out, feelings are deceptive. The passions drag us every which way. This is why Christianity, properly lived, can be so exhausting. As St. John the Dwarf tells us, we are to expect temptation and struggle until our very last breath. And, again, to paraphrase Fr. HLL, that last breath might not be too far away (well, it never is, if you look at the big picture). I don't mean to be dour, just realistic, and I suppose at least a little empathetic toward someone who feels like they're better off without religion. I understand why you feel that way. But that doesn't mean that your feelings (or my feelings, or anybody's feelings) are to rule the day, given how fickle they are.

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I mean, I can't say for 100% certainty that God doesn't exist (and I truly believe that not even the most religious of the religious can say that they know 100% that God exists). You know, because you have faith in him. You learn about him and attend Church and commune with him while building a strong relationship with him.

I am always puzzled by this kind of thinking. Mere existence is such a very low threshold for believing in something, isn't it? I exist, but if I were to start garnering believers to myself, I'd be on the lookout for the four horsemen of the apocalypse!

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I've realized that "faith" is all in your head. It's real if you believe that it's real. I just don't believe that it's real, so for me, it's not real.

Hmm. I think faith is all in your head, too...if it is, in fact, all in your head. But if it is at the center of your whole life in such a way that you can face down doubts knowing that they also exist in your head, then you might see why there's no reason to privilege the doubt over the faith. To revisit my objection to the false dichotomy of the test you took, I must ask: Why do you follow one to the exclusion of the other? Why is one a sign of the unreality of God or the complete subjectivity of faith, but the other the operating principle by which you'll now live your life? Again, I ask your forgiveness if this is out of line, but it seems to me that from what little I've read about you in this thread, you have vacillated from one extreme to the other. Before you were religious (or what you thought being religious was) to a fault, and now you are disbelieving. You are not living in the middle whereby you may believe and doubt. As I wrote, I believe that they are both in your head; it's just a matter of recognizing who put them there. As a Christian, I believe that faith comes from God -- it is not willed or believed into existence by the individual. No person, lacking in faith, can consciously decide or will themselves to believe. Is this not what are experiencing right now?

Achronos, please stop. I don't know if you remember being James' age, but doubts find their roots because of careless words from people like you. I'd rather leave the boy in peace and let him mature and grow in the Lord without other people doubting him.

Do you pray for him? If you really think he'll be an atheist than you should feel a strong urge to pray for his walk with Christ. If you already are doing this, I thank you.

If his faith can be so easily shaken by my words on this forum, then the faith was never strong to begin with.

I like JamesR alot. He's very intelligent for his age and is going to go through many changes, which is why I stand by my prediction (and various of his posts have slight indications of his future).

And btw I am very glad I'm not in his shoes when I was his age.

EDIT: If you are so worried about what I said, then you should be even worried by how this thread and the one Trevor made before showed how liberated, happy and free he was without Orthodoxy. Since they are pretty similar in age, I would seriously have second thoughts IMO.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 02:41:01 AM by Achronos »

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Achronos, please stop. I don't know if you remember being James' age, but doubts find their roots because of careless words from people like you. I'd rather leave the boy in peace and let him mature and grow in the Lord without other people doubting him.

Do you pray for him? If you really think he'll be an atheist than you should feel a strong urge to pray for his walk with Christ. If you already are doing this, I thank you.

If his faith can be so easily shaken by my words on this forum, then the faith was never strong to begin with.

I like JamesR alot. He's very intelligent for his age and is going to go through many changes, which is why I stand by my prediction (and various of his posts have slight indications of his future).

And btw I am very glad I'm not in his shoes when I was his age.

You all and your predictions! Why don't you just write horoscopes for us younger members, hm?!

Achronos, please stop. I don't know if you remember being James' age, but doubts find their roots because of careless words from people like you. I'd rather leave the boy in peace and let him mature and grow in the Lord without other people doubting him.

Do you pray for him? If you really think he'll be an atheist than you should feel a strong urge to pray for his walk with Christ. If you already are doing this, I thank you.

If his faith can be so easily shaken by my words on this forum, then the faith was never strong to begin with.

I like JamesR alot. He's very intelligent for his age and is going to go through many changes, which is why I stand by my prediction (and various of his posts have slight indications of his future).

And btw I am very glad I'm not in his shoes when I was his age.

EDIT: If you are so worried about what I said, then you should be even worried by how this thread and the one Trevor made before showed how liberated, happy and free he was without Orthodoxy. Since they are pretty similar in age, I would seriously have second thoughts IMO.

Trevor is being honest and sincere with us about himself. You are being honest and sincere about another member potentially to their detriment.

At 16, our faith is more often than not fairly weak at many moments just because of the fickleness of the age. All I'm saying is not to plant doubts in his head and just support him

I support JamesR in whatever he chooses to be and wish him nothing but the best in his life. I'm not going around condemning him if he decides to leave the Orthodox faith. Some people need to take a break and walk away for awhile, and I respect that.

I don't know what doubts I planted, all I made was a prediction on par with what the weatherman said about the weather tomorrow. Who cares? Relax.

And I'm ready for the monk quotes about how they will be forever condemned to hell for blaspheming the Holy Spirit in 3..2..1...

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Achronos, please stop. I don't know if you remember being James' age, but doubts find their roots because of careless words from people like you. I'd rather leave the boy in peace and let him mature and grow in the Lord without other people doubting him.

Do you pray for him? If you really think he'll be an atheist than you should feel a strong urge to pray for his walk with Christ. If you already are doing this, I thank you.

If his faith can be so easily shaken by my words on this forum, then the faith was never strong to begin with.

I like JamesR alot. He's very intelligent for his age and is going to go through many changes, which is why I stand by my prediction (and various of his posts have slight indications of his future).

And btw I am very glad I'm not in his shoes when I was his age.

EDIT: If you are so worried about what I said, then you should be even worried by how this thread and the one Trevor made before showed how liberated, happy and free he was without Orthodoxy. Since they are pretty similar in age, I would seriously have second thoughts IMO.

Trevor is being honest and sincere with us about himself. You are being honest and sincere about another member potentially to their detriment.

Well Trevor is genuine and so is JamesR. It's why I enjoy reading their posts because of their honesty. But as I said above who cares what I predict, who am I?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

At 16, our faith is more often than not fairly weak at many moments just because of the fickleness of the age. All I'm saying is not to plant doubts in his head and just support him

I support JamesR in whatever he chooses to be and wish him nothing but the best in his life. I'm not going around condemning him if he decides to leave the Orthodox faith. Some people need to take a break and walk away for awhile, and I respect that.

I don't know what doubts I planted, all I made was a prediction on par with what the weatherman said about the weather tomorrow. Who cares? Relax.

And I'm ready for the monk quotes about how they will be forever condemned to hell for blaspheming the Holy Spirit in 3..2..1...

Sorry for coming on strong, I just remember being his age and I would have wanted people to have confidence in me.

At 16, our faith is more often than not fairly weak at many moments just because of the fickleness of the age. All I'm saying is not to plant doubts in his head and just support him

I support JamesR in whatever he chooses to be and wish him nothing but the best in his life. I'm not going around condemning him if he decides to leave the Orthodox faith. Some people need to take a break and walk away for awhile, and I respect that.

I don't know what doubts I planted, all I made was a prediction on par with what the weatherman said about the weather tomorrow. Who cares? Relax.

And I'm ready for the monk quotes about how they will be forever condemned to hell for blaspheming the Holy Spirit in 3..2..1...

Sorry for coming on strong, I just remember being his age and I would have wanted people to have confidence in me.

Heh I'm waiting for the PeterTheAleut post about age, get ready.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Right now? Sitting in bed with my laptop at 1am watching two fellows wager over how long it will take a teenager to turn to atheism.

I do loads of volunteer work with clubs at school. I'm also the go-to guy when teachers need things done (which isn't as much a good thing as it sounds). I also organize our blood drives, so I'm preparing for that. I am starting senior year, and my current project is designing a booth for the freshman to come to and learn about my club. I get to go to school super early on the first day and everything (yay...).

People need to be careful of what they say in threads like this. We don't want to say things that will cause others to stumble.

Everyone goes through times of doubt. Many recover from it and return to the faith.

Trevor,Earlier you mentioned sexual orientation. I'm not in a position to speak to you about this, but I know others on this forum have struggled with this and stayed in the faith. I know this sounds cliche, but did you go to the new priest at your church and have a good long talk with him before deciding to leave? If not, you may want to do so. Just a suggestion.

Good to see you too. It's good that you're getting involved. You'll have a lot of fun during senior year, just don't get too sentimental!

I take God's existence as a given these days, as most Christians do. It seems like the change in you is more in how you are experiencing the world, versus something involving classical proofs for God or for atheism or any of that detached boring crap.

Met. Anthony Bloom wrote in his book "Beginning to Pray" that sometimes, to be honest, one must say to God (paraphrase): "I'm not ready or too weak to bear with you right now, I can't be with you all the time."

I think that's what you're doing experientially in your own way. Also growing up. Don't get a girl pregnant or do anything stupid, don't use anybody, bear what you can. You're a good dude.

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Quote from: Orthonorm

if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

People need to be careful of what they say in threads like this. We don't want to say things that will cause others to stumble.

Everyone goes through times of doubt. Many recover from it and return to the faith.

Trevor,Earlier you mentioned sexual orientation. I'm not in a position to speak to you about this, but I know others on this forum have struggled with this and stayed in the faith. I know this sounds cliche, but did you go to the new priest at your church and have a good long talk with him before deciding to leave? If not, you may want to do so. Just a suggestion.

Yes, I did. He was so wonderful about it, too. I don't struggle with it, but merely being in Church made me feel as though I did. I mean, it's one thing to say "yes, celibacy for me, please!" in Church surrounded by faithful parishioners, icons and the body of Christ. At my school and out in the "world", being other than heterosexual is becoming more and more acceptable. I really needed time away from Church to deal with this, as I had to accept it in myself. Not go out and do sinful acts, but just sit alone and think about what my feelings meant and all of that.

Good to see you too. It's good that you're getting involved. You'll have a lot of fun during senior year, just don't get too sentimental!

I take God's existence as a given these days, as most Christians do. It seems like the change in you is more in how you are experiencing the world, versus something involving classical proofs for God or for atheism or any of that detached boring crap.

Met. Anthony Bloom wrote in his book "Beginning to Pray" that sometimes, to be honest, one must say to God (paraphrase): "I'm not ready or too weak to bear with you right now, I can't be with you all the time."

I think that's what you're doing experientially in your own way. Also growing up. Don't get a girl pregnant or do anything stupid, don't use anybody, bear what you can. You're a good dude.

Thank you.

I think that I might feel better if I could just feel God like I used to. I used to walk around with my prayer rope like some sort of Fr Abbot Trevor jr. and pray all the time. I just don't feel it anymore, I feel like I'm alone, and I feel uncomfortable praying to a God who I am not sure is even there.

Good to see you too. It's good that you're getting involved. You'll have a lot of fun during senior year, just don't get too sentimental!

I take God's existence as a given these days, as most Christians do. It seems like the change in you is more in how you are experiencing the world, versus something involving classical proofs for God or for atheism or any of that detached boring crap.

Met. Anthony Bloom wrote in his book "Beginning to Pray" that sometimes, to be honest, one must say to God (paraphrase): "I'm not ready or too weak to bear with you right now, I can't be with you all the time."

I think that's what you're doing experientially in your own way. Also growing up. Don't get a girl pregnant or do anything stupid, don't use anybody, bear what you can. You're a good dude.

Thank you.

I think that I might feel better if I could just feel God like I used to. I used to walk around with my prayer rope like some sort of Fr Abbot Trevor jr. and pray all the time. I just don't feel it anymore, I feel like I'm alone, and I feel uncomfortable praying to a God who I am not sure is even there.

Since I started this conversation, I suppose I owe you all this much for the sake of context.

I originally left Church because of my sexual orientation. This was something that I didn't feel comfortable even thinking about while I was in Church. This is no fault of the Church's, but my own. I stopped Church, and I was able to accept myself for who I am. I needed to stop going for me. The disbelief in God came later.

Though you left prior to my arrival, I am glad you are doing better, but I am sad you took an earthly path to get there. Maybe in time you will find how much the world lacks and return home. Perhaps, this is part of your journey to remove the impurities in "steel" and return strengthened by the experience.

I'll worry in about a decade. He's got years of university ahead to mess with his mind.

I think FatherHLL's point on this is that we aren't guaranteed decades, university, etc.

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North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Agreed, and I hope that he (you, Trevor ) eventually return to God and the Church, but within the context of a more meaningful relationship.

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but now we have diverged from the thread's inital purpose.

Phew... at least some things are normal around here.

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North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Hi Trevor,You may not know me as I am kind of new to this forum but allow me to share my personal experience a little bit.when I read your post it really felt like something I myself would have written a couple of years back. It is perfectly normal that you are going through this time. We all face different challenges at some point in our lives that put our faith and belief in God in a big question. In my case, it was losing someone very dear to my heart in a very tragic way. I felt very lonely and believed that if God was in my life He would have not let that happen. From then on, my spiritual life started to spiral down. Even standing in church during the Liturgy started to sound foreign to me. It all started to feel like we are calling onto a non existent god. It felt like the God I loved so much didn't exist anymore and that I didn't belong there. I too lost a lot of friends because of being super religious and even got several scoldings from friends. Some of my friends didn't want to hang out with me anymore and labeled me as a 'religious freak'. So when I went through a challenge in my life and started questioning God, all of these started to fit into the puzzle and I slowly started drawing away from church, stopped praying and and started living my life as an atheist. For the time being, life felt like soooooo much easier. I could do whatever I want without feeling guilty, don't have to struggle with trying to pray and trying to live life according to the bible, I started getting back my friends that once thought I was not fun to hang out with. Life started to feel so much easier because I could do whatever I want and whenever I want, eat whatever I want, and living life according to how i feel and not how God planned it for me. It felt so right (I wish I had someone to tell me that feelings can be deceiving). This didn't last too long before the world started to feel so empty back again and started to search God back. I realized that I didn't belong to the world that I thought was comfortable. But the great thing is, this time when I came back to God, I came back in a more balanced and mature way.

Trevor my whole point is, keep an open mind and this may not necessarily last too long. You will most likely find that the world isn't that comfortable either although it may look like that initially. I want to share one quote from HH Pope Shenouda's Diabolic War

"Just as there is joy in the presence of the angels of God overone sinner who repents." (Luke 15:10), undoubtedly the devilsrejoice when one righteous person falls and delight over anyonewho submits to them."

I highly recommend that book. I wish I can tell you to hang in there and keep praying till you are able to conquer this feeling and test in your faith but I have been where you are and I know its almost impossible to do so. Like some of the members have said, just keep an open mind, go and see what the world has to offer but if and whenever you decide to come back, our beloved Orthodox will be waiting with open arms

Good luck brother and may the Lord protect and guide you!

Bytania

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Do not want things to turn out as they seem best to you, but as God pleases. Then you will be free from confusion, and thankful in prayer.~The Desert Fathers

Who teaches us to honor our parents and family? Who teaches us to love our spouses and raise our children right?

Christ.

The Christian faith exists to help us live the way humans are meant to live. And if it comes down to a values judgment, it should stand above all the rest, because it teaches us how to do all the rest in the way we are meant to.

This just proves that modern "therapy", quizzes, tests, etc....are all designed to make you doubt your faith....and fit "in" with modern social norms.

Modern society is geared to destroy what is most precious and necessary for our well-being....and turn us into something we were never meant to be.

We, as a society, have decided God doesn't exist, because He is an inconvenience to us....He forces us to look at ourselves in the mirror....and sometimes, if we look hard enough....we will not like what we see....but, what we see is the truth....and instead of running from it and hiding, like Adam did when God called, we need to face life, face what we are, what we have done, and actively work at making it better.

Sad.....so....soooooo, sad.

I would love to give an excellent seed of advice....to say it's all good....it's just a phase, or if it is not....you're still fine, Trevor.

But, you aren't. You are not fine. This is not fine....and it is not good.

I always thought you were stronger....even with what I know you are going through...I never thought you would completely disqualify God. I must be blind, because I never saw this coming.

I hope and pray that one day soon, you will once again open your heart to the truth, and welcome God back in to your life. Remember, He hasn't left you, you have left Him.

I still love you like the little brother you were, Tikhon, and will pray for you.....but, I'm still really, really sad.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria