Why is everyone so up in arms about a bitch and pups not seeing a Vet?? Only a fool would take their bitch and/or pups to a Vet's office. Every breeder I know avoids the office at all costs unless absolutely needed. Every breeder I know also does their own puppy vacc's.

Amen to this! No matter how clean the vet's office looks there is always a higher risk of parvo and other potentially fatal diseases there than keeping the pups in your own home. Just think about how many people in the waiting room who can't resist petting and picking up your pups or even worse letting their dogs sniff or lick them. Lord only knows why those people and their pets are there. That little cough Fido has may be kennel cough or that diarreah Muffy the pound adoptee has may be parvo. That is the main reason I do my own dewclaws and vaccinations and take fecal samples to the clinic without taking the litter. Why put pups at risk when you don't have to?

Although my pups are born and raised in my kitchen, I do bookoos of health testing, and I show in conformation I do see where Pops2 and the OP are coming from.

Show dogs are bred to trot around a ring and they are normally not as physically challenged to the degree that working and hunting dogs are. Show breeders need to health test their dogs to find problems that are simply not as obvious as they would be in a working/hunting dog. The Golden Retriever with HD or the Peke with a severe heart murmer can still make it around the show ring and might even be used for breeding by less than reputable breeders. The coonhound or sled dog that breaks down due to a health problem is unlikely to be bred because the breeder has no desire for more dogs that can't be worked or hunted with.

Has anyone here pointed out that the weather in VIRGINIA is certaintly not the same as that of the Middle East? That a dog with virtually no body fat and sparse feathering should not be forced to live outside in frigid, snowy winters?

If you live in the Middle East, or a place with weather conditions on par with it, and you would like to camp outside with your dogs and/or spend all of your waking hours with them... I'm fine with you forcing them to live/procreate/raise their young completely outdoors. Otherwise, I feel it is not so "natural" as it is lazy and careless. D:

Has anyone here pointed out that the weather in VIRGINIA is certaintly not the same as that of the Middle East? That a dog with virtually no body fat and sparse feathering should not be forced to live outside in frigid, snowy winters?

If you live in the Middle East, or a place with weather conditions on par with it, and you would like to camp outside with your dogs and/or spend all of your waking hours with them... I'm fine with you forcing them to live/procreate/raise their young completely outdoors. Otherwise, I feel it is not so "natural" as it is lazy and careless. D:

I did.

I don't have a big deal with the lack of puppy vet visits. Except for the fact that I will take them in if there is an issue. I wouldn't let a pup die from something that could be fixed with meds. And with out the c section Dekka never would have been able to give birth to Kat, as someone who was in labour forever herself and needed a c section (and I come from a long line of 'easy whelpers' myself ) I can't see someone letting a bitch suffer just cause its 'natural'. I would likely be dead if I had to give birth 'naturally'.

And there are working dogs of various breeds that do have long successful careers with health issues. They just manage, or compensate. Yes the 'huntin' hounds that I know are a pretty healthy lot, mixed best dog to best dog regardless of breed etc. But I also know what they do with the ones who can't/won't hunt....... (if no one wants a pet)

I'm also worried that if any of these dogs are going to homes where they will live inside they are going to go home with none of the socialization to indoor events (vacuum, TV, hustle and bustle of people in the house, noise the AC makes, radio, beginnings of learning human behavior, simply seeing all the indoor furniture, etc.) that a pup from a breeder with pups inside would have. The owners will have to get them used to all these things when they get them, IMO that's something the breeder should do as much as possible, there is only a small window of socialization so their lives should be jam packed with both indoor and outdoor socialization from the time they are little newborns (learning to have their bodies handled) to the time they go home from the breeder and the rest continues on by the owner when they are sold.

Unless of course all ten of these pups are going to working homes where they'll live outside. I'm not saying the pups can't learn to live inside after they are adopted, I'm just saying the pups are starting much later than a pup who lived inside before. If I'm getting a pet dog from a breeder I want someone who is giving me the absolute best dog he can and for me that means a ton of socialization from the start so I have a confident pup from the start who has already had lots of socialization so that living in the house is one less thing the owner has to work on. The owner can focus her attention on socializing the dog to off property places, people and other dogs.

I don't have a big deal with the lack of puppy vet visits. Except for the fact that I will take them in if there is an issue. I wouldn't let a pup die from something that could be fixed with meds. And with out the c section Dekka never would have been able to give birth to Kat, as someone who was in labour forever herself and needed a c section (and I come from a long line of 'easy whelpers' myself ) I can't see someone letting a bitch suffer just cause its 'natural'. I would likely be dead if I had to give birth 'naturally'.

And there are working dogs of various breeds that do have long successful careers with health issues. They just manage, or compensate. Yes the 'huntin' hounds that I know are a pretty healthy lot, mixed best dog to best dog regardless of breed etc. But I also know what they do with the ones who can't/won't hunt....... (if no one wants a pet)

Because I was talking about our hounds, and breeding for work, I just want to point out amongst the hunters we knew.. what you are hinting at NEVER happened... First Non hunters were a rarity, I mean some maynot have been as good but honesty, I cannot remember one hound that refused to work!!

However, lots of times Joe, John and Jack were looking for working pups, and the Bitch would have 6... so 2 or 3 would end up as pets... They loved to pet them to youngsters with willing parents inthe hopes they'd try hunting later. That is how Jeff ended up with Lady at 8 years of age, she wound up being one of his best workers and lived to be petted by our own kids.

I am glad your experience is different than mine. I can only say about what I know that goes on around here.

Maybe it's regional, but also, not many work the smaller beagle type rabbit hounds up here, I have noticed when they say hound, they are typically talking about a larger coon hound type... In my area of Ontario I have not met that many who work hounds period, though I have met people who travel North of 7 to run deer with dogs, and that is so different to where I am from, what I was taught... Home your hound gets caught running a deer and the game warden has the authority to shoot it onsight

yes most of the ones I know are larger. Around here ppl put tracking collars on them and let them go.. they often don't seem to get all that upset if they loose one . They hunt a lot of coyote right around here. When I lived at in Warsaw I was for ever finding hounds showing up and trying to find out who's they were.

Most of the ppl I know personally hunt deer with their hounds. They do care if they don't come back.. but they don't keep them around if they can't hunt. (well they do retire the good huntin ones.. but if a young one won't hunt, and no one wants a pet its either dumped or shot)

You know, we all want the best for our dogs but there is one thing that really urks me.

Dogs have survived absolutely AMAZINGLY for CENTURIES with minimal input.

I'd go so far as to say it's only in the last 50 years that dogs have really become pampered with quality food, comfy beds, pretty clothes etc etc.

Marketing giants saw another niche to be exploited.

When my parents had dogs, they didn't have a bed, they slept in the kitchen on the floor, and they ate bog standard food. They were AMAZING dogs. Happy, healthy - our collie was ancient before she subcumed to old age.

You can get SOOOO swept up with the whole I MUST DO THIS OR I AM IRRESPONSIBLE.

Actually that's bullshite. Dogs are not tiny little delicate angels which might break if I do this or I do that.

THAT is (dare I say) a mostly Americanised attitude.

Go to most European countries - well ANY other country than the US - and you'll see MUCH more relaxed attitudes to dog ownership.

There are always the fanatics, but generally dogs like - food, water, somewhere to sleep and company and stimulation. They don't CARE how those things come. And they can live full long healthy lives with those requirements being met.

And you don't need a heated bedroom, with down pillows, steaks and diamond encrusted jewel collars to keep a dog healthy OR happy.

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"Dogs are our link to paradise. They do not know jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing wasn't boring, it was peace."

Bodhi is the opposite of ignorance, the insight into reality which destroys mental afflictions and brings peace.