Shoju wrote:and their current "big deal" is that in some countries it is illegal to be a practicing Christian (or at least that is what the spin is, I haven't investigated myself).

Intriguing, just looked into it. It would seem there is a list of 51 countries where it is illeagal to be a christian floating about. Further investigation shows it is perfectly legal to be a Christian in these countries but Christians are a minority and in some of them suffer all the shit minorities have to put up with.

The closest I could find to it actually being true is in some islamic countries it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity and the punishments vary from country to country ranging from a weary shrug to the death penalty.

If you really want to discuss that, instead of dismissing it, I'll dig up details.

What you fail to mention is that in many of those countries, like China, if you don't go to the "state" church, you are subject to being put in jail at their whim. Or in Indonesia, where it's perfectly legal, but the local islamic mob is likely to come around and burn your church, your house, and chop your family to bits.

Or you could talk about several countries in central west africa, where it's basically a religious civil war.

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twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

another example (albeit a bit extreme) would be something that happened in the USin Missouri in the 1830s (i think, might be the 40s) there a governer's order for the extermination of mormonsiow, you could be killed for even being thought of as a mormon, or living in a mormon town

LGBT can at least live in peace (most places)

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Shoju wrote:and their current "big deal" is that in some countries it is illegal to be a practicing Christian (or at least that is what the spin is, I haven't investigated myself).

Intriguing, just looked into it. It would seem there is a list of 51 countries where it is illeagal to be a christian floating about. Further investigation shows it is perfectly legal to be a Christian in these countries but Christians are a minority and in some of them suffer all the shit minorities have to put up with.

The closest I could find to it actually being true is in some islamic countries it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity and the punishments vary from country to country ranging from a weary shrug to the death penalty.

If you really want to discuss that, instead of dismissing it, I'll dig up details.

What you fail to mention is that in many of those countries, like China, if you don't go to the "state" church, you are subject to being put in jail at their whim. Or in Indonesia, where it's perfectly legal, but the local islamic mob is likely to come around and burn your church, your house, and chop your family to bits.

Or you could talk about several countries in central west africa, where it's basically a religious civil war.

And that's even better. With pastor's going out and saying that they should round up the gays and put them in prison camps, and that they should beat their children for being gay. Yes. truly. This is the type of problem that Christianity is faced with, and the reason that churches, and parishioners need to take a step back, and realize that their opinions about the gay community are bordering on the same type of opinions that they are in a tizzy about in other countries.

If you worry about your christian brother around the world who is dealing with hardships, yet agree with people voicing their desire to impose those same hardships on people in your own country, there is a problem.

It's not the people of our generation that you have to change. It's the same people who call us every time their VCR clock is flashing 12:00, or who try to pass stupid laws saying that video game violence causes real life violence, or any number of stupid decisions.

Those are the people whose viewpoints need to change. We joke about the old people that sit on their lawns with rock salt-loaded shotguns shouting "GET ORF MY LAWN" here on this forum, but those are the people who are overwhelmingly against gay marriage. They're the most likely to be religious, conservative, and any number of other labels that add up to one thing: against LGBT rights.

And pretty much everything from the time the emancipation proclamation was signed into law until the end of segregation is the civil rights battle.

Lasting change takes time, in any area you can think of. In cases of public opinion, that means we're talking in generational terms. Be patient, it'll happen.

- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.

Shoju wrote:And that's even better. With pastor's going out and saying that they should round up the gays and put them in prison camps, and that they should beat their children for being gay. Yes. truly. This is the type of problem that Christianity is faced with, and the reason that churches, and parishioners need to take a step back, and realize that their opinions about the gay community are bordering on the same type of opinions that they are in a tizzy about in other countries.

If you worry about your christian brother around the world who is dealing with hardships, yet agree with people voicing their desire to impose those same hardships on people in your own country, there is a problem.

While I completely agree with your argument and think it makes total logical sense I don't see it going very far. To these people they're following the one true religion while gay people are an abomination who will spend eternity burning in hell. Most people who are against gay marriage for religious reasons aren't going to empathize with gays because gays are wrong and they're right.

Shoju wrote:And that's even better. With pastor's going out and saying that they should round up the gays and put them in prison camps, and that they should beat their children for being gay. Yes. truly. This is the type of problem that Christianity is faced with, and the reason that churches, and parishioners need to take a step back, and realize that their opinions about the gay community are bordering on the same type of opinions that they are in a tizzy about in other countries.

If you worry about your christian brother around the world who is dealing with hardships, yet agree with people voicing their desire to impose those same hardships on people in your own country, there is a problem.

While I completely agree with your argument and think it makes total logical sense I don't see it going very far. To these people they're following the one true religion while gay people are an abomination who will spend eternity burning in hell. Most people who are against gay marriage for religious reasons aren't going to empathize with gays because gays are wrong and they're right.

Logic isn't going to breach that wall. I wish it would though.

And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism. It goes both ways.

Klaudandus wrote:Hey, I try to strike a balance! So don't lump me with the loonies on either side!

Oh no, I'm not lumping anyone in on either side, just that we have seen that both sides can at times be unreasonable right here. Hell, I see the perspective of both sides, and there are those on both sides that are just not willing to speak without hurling insults, while simultaneously complaining about the other side throwing insults.

My statement wasn't meant to encompass all of either side, just pointing out that the converse is also true.

Shoju wrote:Oh no, I'm not lumping anyone in on either side, just that we have seen that both sides can at times be unreasonable right here. Hell, I see the perspective of both sides, and there are those on both sides that are just not willing to speak without hurling insults, while simultaneously complaining about the other side throwing insults.

My statement wasn't meant to encompass all of either side, just pointing out that the converse is also true.

Look at what he said and where he said it. It wasn't even reasonable to post it so why would you think he would get any less than he did? He was defending a "mouth breathing idiot", guilty by association. All that was said was:

Skye1013 wrote:Chick Fil A is anti-gay.This makes me a sad panda.

You're not lumping anyone in on either side? Weird cause I thought you said...

Shoju wrote:And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism.

SMH...

Edit: Spelling and We must have been reading different threads, because there was nothing even remotely close to that kind of a statement made.

Last edited by Gab on Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

I think the funny part is that the reason why I'm so open minded is that my zeyde was really openminded for being a jew.

He married a goyim, didn't force anyone in the family to follow his religion, and while still a practicing jew, he always felt that if you lived a honorable life but were sent to hell because you ate shrimp, against the laws of the torah, then yahweh was kinda petty.

I think my poor zeyde is spinning in his grave that my uncle is a complete batshit insane SBC pastor that preaches about "bombing iran in the name of jesus", I guess in part because he hangs around with a lot of messianic jews

Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

Spot on.

The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.

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halabar wrote:The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy.

Speak for yourself. I'm perfect in every way that counts.

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Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

Spot on.

The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.

this is exactly itthe whole point of (well at least mormon) proselyting is to reach out to those that are worse sinners and bring them to god so they may find forgiveness for thier sins and become better people

not dam them in the name of christ

wtb the jesus pic from the frustrations thread that i think invis posted

Amirya wrote:

halabar wrote:The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy.

Speak for yourself. I'm perfect in every way that counts.

*snickers* not touching this one

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Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.Getting a tattoo is a sin.Disobeying your parents is a sin.It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.

Koatanga wrote:Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.Getting a tattoo is a sin.Disobeying your parents is a sin.It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.

This is the problem. You have taken all of those things out of context, and aren't looking at things in historical context. I already touched on this before, and I guess I will say it again.

Shaving wasn't a sin, it was against the law. There were multiple reasons for this, but we'll take it down to the common denominator. It was against the law, because wandering around in the wilderness so many thousands of years ago, didn't offer people the ability to have great shaving utensils, and in response doing so, could leave to you being injured, cutting your major arteries, and you could fucking die. It was also a way to distinguish those of the faith from those other cultures of the time that weren't believers.

Getting a tattoo was NEVER a sin. That is quite possibly one of the two most misquoted, taken out of context portions of the bible EVER It says that you aren't to mark yourself in rememberence of the dead. This is, (as I've posted before) not tattooing, this is in reference to another culture that would cut, burn, disfigure, or even MAIM themselves after the death of someone.

Touching the skin of a pig, and consuming a pig, WAS FOR PRACTICAL REASONS. Because they didn't have the ability to treat, cure, cook, the food in such a way that would prevent the skin from rotting, and the meat for going bad, or being fully cooked. It was a Law because YOU COULD FUCKING DIE.

And then here comes the most important part, that non believers don't know, and that believers over look.

Paul says in Hebrews (a letter written to the church leaders of the Hewbrew followers), that anyone still living under the law, is living under a curse. The birth, and death of Christ created a new Covenant between man and god.

It is the reason that a lot of things changed at that point. It is also the reason that I have multiple, serious, problems with behavior of the a lot of organized churches, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentocostal, you name it.

They have apparently forgotten (or choose to ignore when needed) that The New Testament created the new covenant between man and god, and things like Penance, Confession, and Eternal Salvation are outdated concepts of Faith in "God the Christian" god.

Gab wrote:

Shoju wrote:And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism.

SMH...

Edit: Spelling and We must have been reading different threads, because there was nothing even remotely close to that kind of a statement made.

No, you just don't want to admit it.

Lieris wrote:I can't stand religious people like you who try to make out that they do not hate gay people all the while calling their relationships a sin and being against equal rights. We do not believe you, we know you are a hateful nasty human being hiding behind religion to justify your prejudices and that platitudes like "love the sinner" are as fake as they are demeaning.

I'll just post this one, because I'm not trying to call people out and start a fight here. I'm trying to rationally discuss it, and everyone else touched on the rest of your post so I don't need to either.

There are multiple other posts in the discussion while in the post your frustrations thread that refer to christian people as wrong, crazy, the problem.

Nikachelle wrote:I think calling gay people the same thing as murderers, adulterers and thiefs is far worse than name calling.

The point Nika, is that in religion, there is no difference in the degree of sin as others have pointed out. Lying, being gay, murdering, stealing, being disrespectful, having an affair, taking the lord's name in vain, it's all the same. It is all sin.

Is it rough? Sure, maybe. But It is the belief system. Take it or leave it. The problem is that the Old Testament is the History lesson, and the New Testament is the laws, and covenant, and a lot of people forget that.

halabar wrote:The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.

I can appreciate that is the key of Christianity. The thing that bothers me, other than the picking and choosing of "laws" that are followed, is that some of these religious groups are fine with all sinners having the same rights except for gays. And that they actively try to keep gays from having those rights. If all sins are equal in the eyes of your God than why should gays still be treated as if they are inhuman?

And it's mighty large stretch to say Lieris' post comes even close to such an absolute statement as EVERYONE who follows religion is a "mouth breathing idiot". Maybe that was just an extreme flair for the dramatic, but again nothing even remotely close to that came out of the frustrations.... "discussion".

I will say this though, and this is my opinion, anyone who says love the sinner hate the sin but is against gay rights IS a "mouth breathing idiot".

I'm with Marcus, why do we need some ancient book, which is continuously misinterpreted and is no longer even the word of "God" because it has been bastardized so many times by the men who have translated or edited it, to tell us whether we are good or not and how we should live our lives?

Edit: The bible could have read "any man who does not lie with another man is an abomination" we don't know and there is no way to know. Christians are living off the idea that this book is God's words but it's not, it's the men who got their hands on it's words.