<quoted text>A book from 1824 lamenting the at most small increase in believers since the ages of it's hardpressed inception. In absolute numbers close to zilch so to say.Mind at least four episodes of plaque in the meantime.But Mahomet considered as the competition.I suppose people are more naief nowadays or go off on a tangent, as if a different church would remedy the issue.Or you might say that diversity works it's wonders.http://books.google.nl/books...pg 235best take the FrontPage and leaf to the content, press blue.

Or, more likely, find a different church that better matches with their value system (which is what Jews do with the Conservative movement vs orthodoxy), or create a new movement (i.e. new age movement), or become individual believers with support from the internet....

My point being is that the response to modernity is more sophisticated than is being posited here.

<quoted text>Hmmmm, are you implying that scientific realists can't appreciate and discuss art?And speaking of Cosmos, have you watched the latest incarnation with Neil deGrasse Tyson. Not bad, but definitely not Carl Sagan.

I am stating that a discussion about art from the scientific perspective is OBVIOUSLY different than a discussion from the perspective of art appreciation.

Cosmos - no, not having TV hampers me a bit, though I am still searching for a good way to wacth the original series as a start. I never saw it in the first place. I went to school at the same university as Sagan, by the way, met him a few fleeting times. According to latest Smithsonian (??) biography, he was a bit of a pot head...lol

<quoted text>No disagreement here. I had the same complaint about the pew survey. And I do think spiritualism will rise as organized religion falls.

Ahh - some common points of possible agreement

Though I dont think organized religion will ever fail, judging from my own religion - it will just mutate into new institutions

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text> I just don't happen to see that as a good thing.

Fine, as long as we are all clear that is a statement of values. Others might see this a good thing, as part of the social evolution of religious institutions

I doubt you know this, but what you see from the outside as "orthodox" Judaism is a relatively new institution, Before the 19th century, there were no labels. Judaism was Judaism, with variants, but all somewhat similar (the only real differences in Europe at that time was being Hasidic or nonhasidic - none of that having to do with orthodoxy).

Then, AS a response to European modernity (i.e. free choice), both Reform Judaism AND Orthodox Judaism emerged (as well as assimilation and Zionism) as responses to 19th century modernity. Conservative Judaism arose much later, mainly in the 20th century, as a direct response to Orthodox.

The point being, is that nothing is what it seems. Orthodox Judaism is not really traditional Judaism, any more so than any of the other brands. All organized religion is a response to the times, and its institutional ability to sustain is based upon its ability to evolve, or suffer the consequences.

The web actually encourages religion in many cases because it not only provides fellowship to the like minded, and the seamless exchange of religious information - both things that used to be only attainable by physical church/synagogue attendance.

The physics-inspired term mathematico-logical derivation has been elevated to the level of "gospel truth" despite the fact that mathematico-logical models have their limitations as many are not grounded in reality.

Current mathematical theories about the origin and most fundamental nature of the cosmos are beyond observation, beyond verification and unsupported by any sort of objective analysis or subjective experience - quantum vacuum state, M theory, multiverse, anthropic principle, strings and superstrings are such examples that cannot be directly or indirectly confirmed despite them being purely physical models and not something as abstruse as mystical experience related to individual consciousness.

The conclusion that can be reached is that mathematics may be regarded as a tool and a technique that's useful in dealing with events in gross physical contexts that correspond to outer experience which lie within the domain of the ordinary aspects of mind in its inferential mode.

MATHEMATICS has inherent limitations and until one clearly knows what data or information is to be collected and how the relevant data or information is to be interpreted, it stands to reason that a mere application of a mathematical model (or the mere belief that a mathematical model is correct despite the absence of corroborative evidence of the physical event speculated about) can not lead to a fruitful prediction of natural events that lie beyond the event horizon of the mind.

If this analytical tool is stretched beyond its natural limits then we end up with paradoxes, contradictions, sophisms and fantasies with sheer egoism preventing its proponents from admitting that we can never hope to know the correct answers to the most fundamental nature of the universe or of life.

An example of such blind insistence that's backed by limited success in ordinary situations thereby giving rise to overconfidence is that complexity, order and life developed from simplicity (low degree of information) because it is seen that as atoms combine in fixed proportions to form molecules thus the cosmos too in all its variety leading back to its origin can be explained using reductionist mathematical models. What is overlooked in the process is that even atoms (or even particles subtler than atoms at the subatomic scale) display such fine tuning in their structure and function that no one knows how this precision came about and which no mathematical model based on probability factors, blind forces and chance can ever hope to explain.

ECO-AWARENESS, ONENESS & YOGA:"Deep Ecology is rooted in a perception of reality that goes beyond the scientific framework to an intuitive awareness of the oneness of all life, the interdependence of its multiple manifestations and its cycles of change and transformation. When the concept of the human spirit is understood in this sense, its mode of consciousness in which the individual feels connected to the cosmos as a whole, it becomes clear that ecological awareness is truly spiritual. Indeed the idea of the individual being linked to the cosmos is expressed in the Latin root of the word religion, religare (to bind strongly), as well as the Sanskrit yoga, which means union."- Fritjof Capra, Turning Point, 1982

Actually, there really is no difference between ecology and deep ecology. Same concept.

Cosmos - no, not having TV hampers me a bit, though I am still searching for a good way to wacth the original series as a start. I never saw it in the first place. I went to school at the same university as Sagan, by the way, met him a few fleeting times. According to latest Smithsonian (??) biography, he was a bit of a pot head...lol

They used to have it on Netflix. Don't know if they still do. And yes, I heard that too about his pot smoking. Must have provided some of his "inspiration".

<quoted text><quoted text>They used to have it on Netflix. Don't know if they still do. And yes, I heard that too about his pot smoking. Must have provided some of his "inspiration".

Apparently it was quite a bit more than "some".

I do know that his reputation as a teacher was that he was quite friendly and down to earth. Even though it was a large university that prided itself on research, he actually preferred to teach small freshman seminars.

<quoted text>"Expressions of subjectivity" is one thing. Relating those expressions to some supernatural experience is something else entirely.

I agree that Chopkra is really about shamelessly marketing one's self for profit - through the cultivation of celebrity endorsements (Oprah) and through smooth talking.

But like most things, I look beyond all of that to see what the worth and essence is all about. And I get where many of his ideas come from. He did not pioneer them. Take "I am my body and my bod is me". What he is saying is adjust your perspective from the ego to that of the body. Thats an old idea. Your error is trying to analyze that from logic (applying transitive theory) instead of understanding it as symbol (where the sides of the equation are not equal).

I view him as more of a poet than a western educator. Poetry is not understood logically, its intended to convey a sense, via emotion and expression. An allusion (i.e. a direction to something other than what is on the surface). I think what you are hung up is trying to understand him on the surface - as if he is teaching you as a westerner. Of course, he is guilty in that this type of legitimacy is what he is trying to convey.

But most people dont waste their time being logical and critical, either they appreciate him for what he is and buy his books, or they ignore him. I have one or 2 of his books, even though I am not a fan.

Paris has lost its charm. Not as clean or orderly as it used to be. Filled with curious tourists and in recent times it has become home to tens of thousands of poor immigrants from Africa and Asia who have brought with them their third world cultural baggage and homegrown attitudes. It's difficult for such people to fit into French society with its quintessential elan and emphasis on high intellectualism. The banlieues or ghettos are in the suburbs and many of them stink. Aside from the usual tourist destinations like Eiffel Tower, Arc de Triomphe, Louvre and the Disneyland, make it a point in Paris to visit the art galleries, Sorbonne, the trendy Michelin star restaurants (notably by Alain Ducasse. Maxim's has slipped) and haute couture salons like the Christian Dior, Chanel etc and try traveling to the swank Cote D'Azur in the South of France and to the beautiful Champagne district.

My late mother had a master's degree in English literature and was fluent in French to the extent that as a pass time she would at times undertake translation work from French to English and vice versa for certain well-known international business houses in Mumbai. I miss her a lot.

I find the French mind limpid and artistic. Not surprisingly, in the intellectual sphere, France has bagged the highest number, if I am not mistaken, of Fields Medals (prize in Mathematics).

Avoid Greece if possible but do visit Istanbul - the bridge to Europe and Asia.

As for the car, brake fuel refill.

I am not too well. If I tell you what exactly has happened to me you will not believe me and if you learn what is the problem with my health you may be very sad for me. So, I am not saying anything.

If by the supernatural is meant the higher states of consciousness, then, yes, the supernatural exists but there are too many dangers, including life-threatening ones, associated with these higher planes of consciousness of which science and ordinary people know nothing about. I have too much exposure to these higher planes and have benefited much but have been more damaged by these experiences most of which take place in the waking consciousness 24 x 7 at times.

<quoted text>Paris has lost its charm. Not as clean or orderly as it used to be. Filled with curious tourists and in recent times it has become home to tens of thousands of poor immigrants from Africa and Asia who have brought with them their third world cultural baggage and homegrown attitudes. It's difficult for such people to fit into French society with its quintessential elan and emphasis on high intellectualism. The banlieues or ghettos are in the suburbs and many of them stink. Aside from the usual tourist destinations like Eiffel Tower, Arc de Triomphe, Louvre and the Disneyland, make it a point in Paris to visit the art galleries, Sorbonne, the trendy Michelin star restaurants (notably by Alain Ducasse. Maxim's has slipped) and haute couture salons like the Christian Dior, Chanel etc and try traveling to the swank Cote D'Azur in the South of France and to the beautiful Champagne district.My late mother had a master's degree in English literature and was fluent in French to the extent that as a pass time she would at times undertake translation work from French to English and vice versa for certain well-known international business houses in Mumbai. I miss her a lot.

It's too bad to hear of such a place going so far downhill.

As a teenager I would only have known what I heard and read of Paris in the 1920s where many American writers and artists would hang out with their French counterparts, eat good cheese, drink good wine and allow their creativity to flourish.

My wife double majored in French (and government) so I'm counting on her to help with the language when we make it there. She's been there as she lived her junior year of college in Geneva and traveled through Europe.

Have you been to Versailles? How abut the Crazy Horse Cabaret (naked dancing girls)? Right in Paris. I only ask because I do believe you mentioned a Gentlemen's club recently, in India I think??

Do you have a favorite neighborhood in Paris? I thought the Latin Quarter and St-Germain sound interesting. I like to hang with regular folks/artists etc. You may not.

I would like to experience the essence of the place. I can visit fancy stores in NYC, or Greenwich, Connecticut - right down the road from here. Or Boston. or Rodeo Drive.

JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:

<quoted text>Avoid Greece if possible but do visit Istanbul - the bridge to Europe and Asia.

Avoid the whole country of Greece? wow, why would you say that? do you not like the people there? It can't be the heat as your own country must get very hot at times

I have no burning desire to go to Athens but thought Crete and perhaps another Island or two sounded good. From what I've heard and seen in pics the Greek Island seem quite pretty.

You don't agree?

JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:

<quoted text>As for the car, brake fuel refill.

Or as we would call it here, "brake fluid."

Sounds like it was an easy fix.

JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:

<quoted text>I am not too well. If I tell you what exactly has happened to me you will not believe me and if you learn what is the problem with my health you may be very sad for me. So, I am not saying anything.

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