^^^I've seen you, and others, use this list of things which god supposedly "heals"...but it always confuses me that tooth decay is listed among those things. Unless I am mistaken, isn't tooth decay irreversible? I know I've read about a fringe group here and there which wants to claim having their rotten teeth made whole, or fillings changing to solid gold, or something or another, but I wasn't aware that there was any verification of these claims. And if there WAS verification, I'd have to say that would sound either very impressive or very suspect.

You should watch the Finger Of God by Darren Wilson.

In there are stories of teeth turning to gold - God giving them gold teeth - healings and other stuff. I watched most of it last night and it was amazing.

And God doesn't 'supposedly heal'. Did Jesus 'supposedly heal' the soldier who had his ear cut off? Or the woman who had been bleeding for (12) years?

You have made a couple of replies, and said some stuff about the god you believe is real. But you have done nothing to show us that this god even exists. All you have done is made claims about this god that you think are true, and quoted scripture.

You will soon see that this type of response is not effective on a forum full of former Christians, and atheists. We all know what's in the Bible, and we understand that people like yourself will use it as a way to support their beliefs. But it's just a book. It is nothing more than a set of writings that cannot be verified, and tha also contain such things as talking snakes and donkeys, people who love to be 900, and a uy wandering around doing "miracles".

Yu have to understand how weak the book itself is in defending the things it claims, and the store is it tells. Tink of it this way...even the best science books are just books. They are not themselves evidence of anyhitng being true. They are simply the summarizations, and details of a theory written down. But in order to support what is written in a good science book, there must be demonstrable and repeatable facts and evidence OUTSIDE of the book, in order to support what it says. The book alone is simply not enough.

And a friendly reminder, you're posts are borderline preaching, which is against the forum rules!

^^^I've seen you, and others, use this list of things which god supposedly "heals"...but it always confuses me that tooth decay is listed among those things. Unless I am mistaken, isn't tooth decay irreversible? I know I've read about a fringe group here and there which wants to claim having their rotten teeth made whole, or fillings changing to solid gold, or something or another, but I wasn't aware that there was any verification of these claims. And if there WAS verification, I'd have to say that would sound either very impressive or very suspect.

I ramble. I've never actually heard anyone claim spastic colon or halitosis[1] were cured either, but they sound funny so I use them for effect. The point is, people claim many absurd and petty things in the name of god.

^^^I've seen you, and others, use this list of things which god supposedly "heals"...but it always confuses me that tooth decay is listed among those things. Unless I am mistaken, isn't tooth decay irreversible? I know I've read about a fringe group here and there which wants to claim having their rotten teeth made whole, or fillings changing to solid gold, or something or another, but I wasn't aware that there was any verification of these claims. And if there WAS verification, I'd have to say that would sound either very impressive or very suspect.

I ramble. I've never actually heard anyone claim spastic colon or halitosis[1] were cured either, but they sound funny so I use them for effect. The point is, people claim many absurd and petty things in the name of god.

See, that's what I mean, though. And if you check out some of the comments, it would appear that there are a bunch of people out there who think God can heal/has healed teeth. But the healing of rotten teeth, if it was verified, would be just as unambiguous as healing an amputee...just less apparent, thus easier to claim without someone pointing out the fact that, no, you still don't have a leg.

Heck, we get the occasional person here who even claims god has brought people back from the dead, but these stories always get lumped in the "pics or it didn't happen" pile rather than the "natural remission/coincidence" one...and it would seem that the healed teeth belong in that former group as well.

Lady A, maybe this verse will clear up your confusion? As to re-growing limbs, I have yet to see it but that does not means it is impossible! I mean, seriously, God is the all-powerful Creator. Limbs have been healed though from accidents, being born that way, anything pretty much.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your waysand my thoughts than your thoughts.

Jetson, that verse is for you too.

I'm not making excuses for my God. He does not need me. I need Him. My God is not inadequate. He can and does heal. I (and others) have experienced His healing. I don't know the mind of God. I only know what He has revealed to me. His presence is unexplainable. His power, unimaginable.Everything good is God for (obviously) God is good. When man sinned, man broke the amazing relationship with God. Evil came into the world -- Satan took over. God did not create evil. How can evil be the so-called misunderstanding of God if GOD is indeed GOOD?It can't be...

Excuse me:

From The Song of Fire and Ice; The Clash of Kings: Arya1 Verse 32:

Arya would have preferred riding on a real horse, but a donkey is better than riding on a wagon

This means we should look for miracle, but make do with the best we have available. There is no other correct interpretation.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And God doesn't 'supposedly heal'. Did Jesus 'supposedly heal' the soldier who had his ear cut off? Or the woman who had been bleeding for (12) years?

Stories and verification. These are two stories, but their only "verification" is the Bible itself, which has nothing external to support it, verification-wise. Therefore, there is no reason to believe these healings actually occured.

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"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Lady A, maybe this verse will clear up your confusion? As to re-growing limbs, I have yet to see it but that does not means it is impossible! I mean, seriously, God is the all-powerful Creator. Limbs have been healed though from accidents, being born that way, anything pretty much.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your waysand my thoughts than your thoughts.

Here we have yet another babbling theist trying to assume that God exists and is omnipotent by using circular reasoning (it's true because the Bible said so because the Bible is God's Word because the Bible says so). BTW, this theist is using his magic decoder ring to interpret that, "As to re-growing limbs, I have yet to see it but that does not means it is impossible!" You can prove that anything is possible. Just show us some frickin evidence besides unverifiable writings. Heck, read my quote under my message!

Lady A, maybe this verse will clear up your confusion? As to re-growing limbs, I have yet to see it but that does not means it is impossible! I mean, seriously, God is the all-powerful Creator. Limbs have been healed though from accidents, being born that way, anything pretty much.

no, no they haven't. No evidence of this at all. Only stories claimed by Christians who desperately need some evidence for their faith.

And ah, the usual quotes from the bible to excuse the inactivity of your god. You must insist that we simply can't understand this god but oh when convenient, Christians are all about how much they know their god and what it "really" wants.

You claim to have experienced divine healing. So have others from different religions. Do you beleive that their gods are real adn that they can heal too? Why or why not?

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Everything good is God for (obviously) God is good.

Not obvious at all when your god is depicted as a typical Bronze/Iron age god that commits genocide, that is all about revenge and that works hand in hand with a supposedly entirely evil being.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

As to re-growing limbs, I have yet to see it but that does not means it is impossible!

That's true. I also have yet to see leprechauns living in my closet, but that does not mean they are not there, right? If there is no reason to think that something is the case, the logical assumption to make is that it is not the case, unless and until there is evidence to the contrary.

The whole point of the web site is to get believers to think about their beliefs. Christians commonly describe various types of events as "miracles from God", but in every such case, the alleged miracle is ambiguous. An alternative natural explanation is always possible, at least in theory. No unambiguous miracle, such as an amputee suddenly getting his leg back, has ever been observed. Why do you think that is?

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Limbs have been healed though from accidents, being born that way, anything pretty much.

Evidence? Citations from medical journals, or anything other type of credible source?

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Isaiah 55:

Friendly tip: quoting scripture isn't going to get you very far here. For one thing, most of the regulars here have read the entire bible more than once and in more than one translation; one or two of the atheists here even used to be clergymen. That being the case, when you quote scripture, you are in all likelihood quoting it to someone who is already familiar with it and does not recognize its authority.

If you wish to convert any of the atheists here, this is one of the big things you'll need to remember: scripture is not evidence. Scripture is a claim that requires evidence.

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I'm not making excuses for my God. He does not need me. I need Him.

What if he isn't there? Doesn't that mean you would need someone who doesn't exist? Sounds to me like that would be a pretty life-shattering revelation. If so, it's no wonder that you and people like you cling so strongly to your beliefs. It must be like holding onto a rock during a hurricane or something.

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My God is not inadequate. He can and does heal. I (and others) have experienced His healing.

Please describe the circumstances and explain how you know for certain it was an action taken by Yahweh (rather than by Satan, by Odin, or simply by natural occurrence).

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I don't know the mind of God. I only know what He has revealed to me. His presence is unexplainable. His power, unimaginable.

Couldn't Yahweh give you full understanding of his nature, power, and presence? If so, why does he not do so? If not, doesn't that mean he is not omnipotent?

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God did not create evil.

Uh oh...

Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Pain is good though. We can learn much through it. We can also let it turn ourselves spiteful however. Once you understand that this world is merely a trail grounds for what's to come, what exactly goes on here becomes so very trivial.

Pain is good?

What did this innocent child ever do to deserve a life of pain and misery??According to your beliefs, he's supposed to 'learn' something from this. Explain what the fuck it is he needs to learn exactly...

See, that's what I mean, though. And if you check out some of the comments, it would appear that there are a bunch of people out there who think God can heal/has healed teeth. But the healing of rotten teeth, if it was verified, would be just as unambiguous as healing an amputee...just less apparent, thus easier to claim without someone pointing out the fact that, no, you still don't have a leg.

Heck, we get the occasional person here who even claims god has brought people back from the dead, but these stories always get lumped in the "pics or it didn't happen" pile rather than the "natural remission/coincidence" one...and it would seem that the healed teeth belong in that former group as well.

Lady A, maybe this verse will clear up your confusion? As to re-growing limbs, I have yet to see it but that does not means it is impossible! I mean, seriously, God is the all-powerful Creator. Limbs have been healed though from accidents, being born that way, anything pretty much.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your waysand my thoughts than your thoughts.

[my bold]

Amputees regaining their limbs? None have been reported, sweetheart, unless you wish to go against the medical community and records... It would require an absolute miracle, which has not been recorded either. Sure, cancer can be reversible, for example, but it does not require divine intervention, if such a thing exists.

Lastly, those Bible verses do not say what that guy Tweeterfist said about the Christian god. If anything, it is saying that whatever you think, or whatever Tweeterfist thinks of him in any way, from his "actions" to his ways, it is completely irrelevant and worthless. He does not care. But, the point is, it doesn't comply with what Tweeterfist thought.

Additional note: Search that Bible! Again, I am confused regarding the nature of the Christian god that Tweeterfist makes him up to be. I have no clue what book he's reading.

Pain is good though. We can learn much through it. We can also let it turn ourselves spiteful however. Once you understand that this world is merely a trail grounds for what's to come, what exactly goes on here becomes so very trivial.

Pain is good?

What did this innocent child ever do to deserve a life of pain and misery??According to your beliefs, he's supposed to 'learn' something from this. Explain what the fuck it is he needs to learn exactly...

the lesson he learns is there is no God and no afterlife or my simple prayers for food would be answered.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I understand what you are trying to say here. I've met some amputees who impressed me.

Throught their hardship, their strength was shown.

That is, you are not "wishing ill" on people as some would think.

You may find Taoism interesting. This kind of thinking, mind flipping, adjusting, finding the positives, is inherent in that religion philosophy.

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We can learn much through it. We can also let it turn ourselves spiteful however. Once you understand that this world is merely a trail grounds for what's to come, what exactly goes on here becomes so very trivial.

The bold is a logical reasonable statement for a christian to make. What's odd about Taoists, is, they make the best of what we have here and now. Some of them do this without necessarily believing in an afterlife. Some do believe in an after life.

"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

What did this innocent child ever do to deserve a life of pain and misery??According to your beliefs, he's supposed to 'learn' something from this. Explain what the fuck it is he needs to learn exactly...

Christians believe in a life hereafter. Everybody dies

we may feel the death of a child is more unjust but in context, their view makes sense. What to learn? Well, Jesus said this to Christians, "if you see somebody hungry and don't feed him, somebody without a house and ...". We could fix this mess.

This child is sadly dying. He may no learn anyhthing but hard to say.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Hey Guys,Sorry, I'm gonna do a general-reply-thing.1.) I want to apologize for being 'preachy', and the '(obviously)'. I didn't mean to do that.2.) Evidence: Has anyone read DC Talk books? These books provide a lot of evidence on healings, people dying for this faith, etc. Then again, I don't know if this would be counted as evidence as it is from Christian POV? 3.) Saying God created evil would depend on a person's view of God and evil. If evil is the absence of good, and if God is good, then no, God did not create evil.4.) And yes, as you may have heard, 'Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship.' We speak to each other often.5.) I'm not interested in a big shiny throne.6.) Actual accounts... DC Talk books, Benny Hinn (apparently a controversial topic?), a web link:http://www.theelijahchallenge.org/index.php/component/content/article/124-top-menu/testimonies-a-reports/leader-testimonies/arjae-matthews/122-2011-march-arjae-matthews7.) In my opinion, God is more than a bible page deep. There is so much more to Him than that. So, no. I don't completely know EVERYTHING about my God. Do you know everything about your friends? Your parents? Nope. Relationship is about getting to know each other. -- once again, my opinion.8.) The Alternative Explanation can be possible but only in Theory? That too - being Theory - is not fact. So technically, miracles and natural explanations are on the same level? (thanks for the welcome =] )9.) thanks for the warning on using scripture on this site.10.) That is faith. And yes, but after I felt being in His presence -- own experience once again -- I good with gripping on the Rock in the midst of a Hurricane.11.) One of our soccer guys busted up his knee. We prayed and he got healed. No, there is no written evidence to support this though. Accept this or don't. I have had healings from pain in my feet - after two operations that only messed up my feet more. Once again, the only evidence is experience. A house divided cannot stand. Satan is evil. If so, why would he do something nice? Satan wouldn't heal randomly.12.) He could but I'd probably be killed because of the glory of God. (it was asked.) Would that not take away free will according to belief?13.) KJV, right? Different versions, different translations. And what was the Hebrew meaning? Evil comes from the word Ra??a?h. That word also translates to adversity or calamity. (Strong's numbers)14.) True. My apologies then, Lady A.15.) many have, but mostly by Christians. But I'm not sure if this counts as the evidence needed probably needs to come from a neutral person? One who does not believe in God? And I'm chilled with the 'note'. 16.) and I see what you quoted from me was ambiguous. My mistake. It's God's choice whether to heal a person or not.

Well, thanks for the discussion. I learnt much from you guys. See ya around.

Yes, and they do so without justification. There is no evidence that any such thing exists.

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Everybody dies

Yeah, but people live different qualities of life. I'd rather that child died of old age having lived a good quality life than have him die at age 5 of starvation after suffering the whole 5 years through. Wouldn't you agree?

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we may feel the death of a child is more unjust but in context, their view makes sense.

What context? Even if god did exist and heaven were real, it still does not justify a god allowing a child to suffer a life of pain and misery and death by starvation, just to teach the rest of us a supposed 'lesson'. If such a god actually existed I would never worship it simply for being a sadistic fucker.

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What to learn? Well, Jesus said this to Christians, "if you see somebody hungry and don't feed him, somebody without a house and ...".

I'm sorry but the incomplete quote says nothing to me. I don't know what you intended with it. If you're going to quote, give me the complete quote.

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We could fix this mess.

Exactly. There is no god. It's up to us to fix these problems with the world. That's why I give a fixed 5% of my income to charity + ad-hoc donations for certain events like earthquakes, tsunami's, etc ... and I volunteer 2-3 times a year at charity events.

Most christians are sitting there doing jack shit praying to their god or justifying this type of suffering as part of their sky-daddy's oh so precious (i.e. sadistic) plan.

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This child is sadly dying. He may no learn anyhthing but hard to say.

To even suggest the child might be learning anything from starving to death is utterly despicable.

Yes, and they do so without justification. There is no evidence that any such thing exists.

I never claimed such evidencer exists. Naturally, they do make said claim. They believe in the bible and that records people being raised from the dead. Jesus and Lazareth/

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Yeah, but people live different qualities of life. I'd rather that child died of old age having lived a good quality life than have him die at age 5 of starvation after suffering the whole 5 years through. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree but I'm a disberliever. If i believed in an afterlife ...

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What context? Even if god did exist and heaven were real, it still does not justify a god allowing a child to suffer a life of pain and misery and death by starvation, just to teach the rest of us a supposed 'lesson'. If such a god actually existed I would never worship it simply for being a sadistic fucker.

Sadistic he may be by our standards. Unsure if their belief is that the suffering of others is a lesson for the rest of us.

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I'm sorry but the incomplete quote says nothing to me. I don't know what you intended with it. If you're going to quote, give me the complete quote.

I was paraphrasing a verse commanding Christians to care for the less fortunate or to suffer in the herafter. its a famous verse but its been years since I read it.

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Exactly. There is no god. It's up to us to fix these problems with the world. That's why I give a fixed 5% of my income to charity + ad-hoc donations for certain events like earthquakes, tsunami's, etc ... and I volunteer 2-3 times a year at charity events.

Good for you.

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Most christians are sitting there doing jack shit praying to their god or justifying this type of suffering as part of their sky-daddy's oh so precious (i.e. sadistic) plan.

This is untrue b.s. Christians as a whole give quite a lot to charity.

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This child is sadly dying. He may no learn anyhthing but hard to say.

To even suggest the child might be learning anything from starving to death is utterly despicable.[/quote]

Sure, its despicable; you don't believe in an aferlife and neither do I. As such, we have a different perspectvive.

There exists a verse in the bible describing a poor man, ignored by a rich one. It goes on to describe the glory in heaven the poor man will get while the rich one will be begging at the table in heaven

Again, whether we believe or disbelieve in God, humanity has the power to end starvation. The truth is, the dispicable starvation is done by us. We in the rich world can easily save that child's life and in fact, the rich in the country of that child can also do it.

We don't? Why? Greed. There is nothing in it for us.

Our ownership is more important thn that child's life.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Do you know everything about your friends? Your parents? Nope. Relationship is about getting to know each other. -- once again, my opinion.

So is introspection. Since our God-models are invariably based on ourselves or on other people we idolize (and thus self-identify with), what you say is quite apt. Learning about ourselves, for the growth of our personal gods, is a slow process.

I always find the remark "God doesn't HAVE to heal limbs" or "God works in his own way!" answers to be curiously similar to the age-old playground response of "Yeah? Well my dad can lift a car! He just doesn't feel like it right now!"

Answering "Maybe he will, and we just never saw it!" is of the same ilk.

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It is a foine loine between a poirate and a farrrmer. Oi stand astroid that foine loine.

I always find the remark "God doesn't HAVE to heal limbs" or "God works in his own way!" answers to be curiously similar to the age-old playground response of "Yeah? Well my dad can lift a car! He just doesn't feel like it right now!"

Answering "Maybe he will, and we just never saw it!" is of the same ilk.

It really is.

You know, I bet that someone with sufficient knowledge of the bible would be able to say, "I am Jesus reincarnated", then cite a verse or two of scripture explaining why he doesn't have to give any proof when challenged to provide some. In fact, I bet that people have already done this.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 08:51:19 AM by pianodwarf »

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

I understand what you are trying to say here. I've met some amputees who impressed me.

Throught their hardship, their strength was shown.

rather interesting that a god needs to harm someone to show their strength. Can't they show it without trauma? This strikes me as the same "but but God "teaches" people by harming them". I find this sadistic and rather sick.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB