A new crossbraced main canopy has been introduced to the general public at the latest Russian Canopy Piloting Nationals.

Scirocco, piloted by Vsevolod Bedrin, showed some impressive results, earning him a 3rd place in Distance, 4th in Speed (sub-3 sec times) and 2nd place Overall. (Detailed results can be found here: http://www.dropzone.com/...ost=3908284;#3908284)

Canopy is made by a Ukrainian parachute equipment company Skylark http://www.skylark.com.ua/en/, whose canopies have already earned an excellent reputation.

Pics attached.

We will have an opportunity to jump this new wing later this season at the Ranch, cant wait to see how it compares to the Velo and JVX and how it flies at very high wingloadings (~3:1)

how much??? if it is only couple hundred dollar difference why not fly PD or Icarus???

I dont know what the pricing will be. The canopy is still in the final stages of pre-production, with several sizes being finalized and jumped.

The developer/manufacturer is trying several new things with this wing, some have not been done before in commercial x-baced parachutes.

Why not PD or Icarus? I dont know. There are plenty of experienced people that have no clue that there are great wings and wing makers out there other than PD or Icarus. They are happy with the great products these two companies make and have no desire to open up their horizons when it comes to trying other parachutes, even if they are just as good (or better) and less expensive. That's perfectly fine, most people are like that.

Then there are folks who like to see innovation and new wing designs driven by a competitive market. These people want to fly good wings, not just what's "in fashion" that year. They are a small minority. Entering an established cross-braced canopy market dominated my giants and getting to these pilots is not an easy task... We've seen some companies try with not much success. I am hoping Scirocco has a strong showing at the World meet next month, it's time for a new wing to make it in the market of 11 year old designs.

how much??? if it is only couple hundred dollar difference why not fly PD or Icarus???

If we`re looking at the $ only, then we could consider, shipping, taxes and customs and that could pile up to 1000$+... And if that canopy is equal in performance with Icarus or PD there is no reason for someone from eastern world countries not to buy it (except for "it`s in style" reason).

For example, there is xf-15 canopy from jojo-wings, i bet most of you seen it fly... At least 30% cheaper...

Who's to say PD hasn't experimented with a number of different combinations?

I remember a while back, Icarus had a 11 cell prototype they never ended up taking to market.

dfrom what I am told, PD got a glimps of NZaerosports' NZbrace system and tried to copy it but couldn't get it right, they called it the z brace before aerosports had a name for it.

I believe Icarus spain has been working on an 11 cell with inflatable stabalisers for some time, I believe the inflatable stabalisers 'are' the 10th and 11th cells. but that was from a sponsored athlete bragging not the company.

NZaerosports has still got thier next canopy up thier sleeves I beleive also.

Those that were around will remember the VX was announced, with printed brouchures the very moment the velocity was announced at the 99 pia symp..

PD being the big player needs to make a move before we get to see the next toys....

Either that or one of these more obscure companies getting podium results...

But it apears that JVX and velo are kneck and kneck in performance right now, if this new canopy can do something to disrupt the top swoopers....

I sure hope so.

In reply to:

More cells != more performance.

Not necessarily, more cells equals more lines which equals more drag...

More lift equlas a shorter recovery arc so less speed generated...

The JVX has a much thinner profile and more cells than a velo, but they seem compoarable in performance even with a shorter recovery arc.

This I beleive is why the JFX was developed, to test that theory in the feild.

I know at least one company has experimented with quad cascade lines to try to reduce parasite drag...

It seem though the orange dental floss that you PDFT guys are using is the way forward.

Historically 11-cell canopies have opened very poorly, so they've got that going for them, which is nice.

Isn't that what Clint said about the 11-cell (33 cell?) VX that was semi-publicly prototyped a few years ago? There was another open canopy 20 years ago call the Stealth or something like that, that had the same problems with openings.

You're making a big deal out of the X-braced (and beyond) market, but you have to remember that those canopies represent just a sliver of the overall sport parachute market. If you design an even higher performance canopy, chances are it will be more complex and therefore more expensive, that wing would hold an even smaller market share.

Take PD for example. Since the Velo was released, it has produced one higher performance canopy, the Comp Velo, which is really just a Velo with some factory mods. In that same time, they have release the Pulse, Storm, Sabre2 and the Optimum Reserves (did I miss anything?). It shows you where they put their R&D time and money, and it ain't the leading edge of hgh performance.

There might be ten better ideas out there then X-bracing, but finding someone to develop them and build them into a canopy that jumpers can afford and want to jump is the real trick.

It opens really sweet - like Crossfire. Flying really good - I like it more than Velo. Has a bit shorter arc, but it still in preproduction stage, many changes may be done. Didn't jump JVX, so can't compare with it.

Wow... $1845USD with a RDS too... That is a very good deal compared to a Comp Velo or a JVX… What is a JVX going for these days? Is the just the pre-production price?

They are in full production, but perhaps you ment introduction price? I really don't know. The web site doesn't say anything about it (I think, I only read the russian site via Google Translate). Perhaps they want to keep the price low to get more canopies out there to get some brand awareness?

Wow... $1845USD with a RDS too... That is a very good deal compared to a Comp Velo or a JVX… What is a JVX going for these days? Is the just the pre-production price?

They are in full production, but perhaps you ment introduction price? I really don't know. The web site doesn't say anything about it (I think, I only read the russian site via Google Translate). Perhaps they want to keep the price low to get more canopies out there to get some brand awareness?

Sure and half of the jumpers in US ans West Europe are flying canopies and jumping rigs made in Russia and Ukraine, right?

They are in full production, but perhaps you ment introduction price? I really don't know. The web site doesn't say anything about it (I think, I only read the russian site via Google Translate). Perhaps they want to keep the price low to get more canopies out there to get some brand awareness?

Sure and half of the jumpers in US ans West Europe are flying canopies and jumping rigs made in Russia and Ukraine, right?

I'm probably stupid, because I don't think I understand what you mean.

Do you mean that they have to keep a low price in order to sell them at all because they are made in Ukraine, unlike say Honduras? Perhaps, people have their prejudices. I've previously bought a gear bag, a freefly overall, a camera overall and swoop pants that were made by Skylark and they were all well made so I've only had positive experiences with them this far.

You will see some Scirocco's during World Cup in Klatovy (i hope 5-10 canopies ). Best place to try Scirocco - 3 competitions In Ukraine this year. You also can meet and speak also with Scirocco's inventor here . It wasn't possible to organize test jumps in Dubai due weather holds (no time for fun jumps). We had Scirocco's 72, 77 and 87 with us.

they have to keep a low price in order to sell them at all because they are made in Ukraine, unlike say Honduras?

In general, as the record proves, there are plenty of great products out there that cost less, are made in other countries and also perform as well or better than most of the US equivalents.

Skylark has been around for many years, they have a proven record with successful line of canopies and gear and are one of the largest companies in that part of the world, if not #1. I experienced first hand the quality of their workmanship and design with a 9-cell Magellan-120 - it is just excellent.

Funny, a good friend of mine and an excellent swooper was very skeptical and nervous to try the Scirocco. His used to say "Velocity forever!". Until he actually did try it. Now he is all about it.

If you take anything away from this discussion, take this: don't automatically dismiss a product just because "it's not made in the US". If you get an opportunity to test jump a different/new canopy [in your experience range] - dont ever miss it!!

I'm not sure we're going to see anything groundbreaking for some time. It's like saying "nothing groundbreaking in aviation cause aircraft still have wings"

Agreed. Creating performance parachutes may already be at a point where each new step is just a small enhancement to an already extremely efficient design and the further we go the harder it is to come up with a new "true" enhancement...

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Is he going for 10 or 5ft gates?

He is an Am/measured on 10 footers due to qualifications restrictions, but he is flying and hitting five footers... He is definitely at a Pro level.

Sad to see there's still nothing really groundbreaking in the HP canopy industry..

I'm not sure we're going to see anything groundbreaking for some time. It's like saying "nothing groundbreaking in aviation cause aircraft still have wings".

It's going to be a lot of small steps from hereon out until some wild new tech is developed and someone finds a creative use for it.

Ian

A local former-jumper and mad-scientist came up with a canopy design where you sew the cells out of alignment and you have to load up the canopy to pull the misshapen airfoil into shape. This was instead of crossbracing. It might work, haven't seen anything like it before.

He's also the guy that came up with "Leonardizing" for a F111 canopy (ask in the history forum). Great idea, but it didn't work out so well in the real world.

I currently jump a VX-80@2.2 with Xaos lines (X-mod) and I've only done a few jumps with a Velo-96 so I can't really compare them. The Scirocco is a 77.

It is not legal to jump yet, but a friend's friend did test it once...

The opening was a bit odd. It streamed with the slider up, straight and didn't search around at all. The slider didn't go down until the jumper pulled the rear risers gently (after waiting for about 5 seconds) and then it opened softly and on heading with no tendency to turn at all. I think I like that, but it would be bad if one pulled low and/or didn't know about it...

Before the breaks were released it was much more stable than the VX, it didn't want to turn much while being slightly unbalanced in the harness while stowing the slider and opening the chest strap. With the VX I look a bit like a drunk driver while doing that. The rear risers were not tested to turn while the canopy was braked.

Once the breaks were released, it responded a lot to harness turns and wanted to dive a lot more than the VX. There was not much pressure building up in the front risers and even after 720 degrees, it was not too hard to pull at the front risers.

The stall point seemed to be at chest level, it started to rock quite a bit at that point. My friend's friend didn't want to provoke it while it was not legal to jump it... The steering lines was long enough to not break while pulling at the front risers, so the range was much shorter than on the VX.

The back risers seems to behave quite like the VX's. It had a rather long range before the stall point came close.

It had a steeper trim than the VX, but with breaks it seemed to float quite well. Will have to do some flocking to see how it compares.

Once it was diving, it kept diving. At final my friend's friend did a slow 90 degree harness turn that was supposed to end up high, but the canopy was diving really steep and the rear risers had to be pulled to get it to plane out in time. According to the FlySight, the vertical speed peaked at 75km/h and the ground speed peaked at 68km/h (into a strongish wind) and it became a 50 meter swoop without really trying. Up high while playing/testing the different controls, the top ground speed was 137km/h. My friend's friend's freefall speed was 165km/h during that jump.

All in all, my friend's friend liked it a lot. I can't wait until it has been approved (might need to wait for Skylark to write a manual, which is Swedish requirement, on the other hand the Xaos canopies have been approved and they don't have manuals, do they?).

It is not legal to jump yet, but a friend's friend did test it once...

I can't wait until it has been approved (might need to wait for Skylark to write a manual, which is Swedish requirement, on the other hand the Xaos canopies have been approved and they don't have manuals, do they?).

maybe this would deserve a new thread, but ??? WTF do they need to "legalize" mains ?

It is not legal to jump yet, but a friend's friend did test it once...

I can't wait until it has been approved (might need to wait for Skylark to write a manual, which is Swedish requirement, on the other hand the Xaos canopies have been approved and they don't have manuals, do they?).

maybe this would deserve a new thread, but ??? WTF do they need to "legalize" mains ?

Scirocco is not a crimea

The regulations state that all equipment (mains, AADs, reserves and containers) used in Sweden must be listed in one of our two rule books. For it to be listed there, the manual and some basic information about the equipment (manufacturer, their address, available sizes etc) should be sent to a group of riggers and they decide if they also want to see the equipment (in this case they did want that, probably because no one has previously got a Skylark canopy around here).

The idea is mostly that they should know about all equipment that is being used and ban obviously bad equipment - like if someone would start making reserves without proper reinforcement again. They also monitor SBs and make sure Swedish riggers get to know about them and sometimes write SBs of their own (they've done that to ban some of the alternatives to the three ring system for example).

For mains they mostly divide the canopies in two groups - HP and non-HP and we have rules for when you are allowed to start jumping HP canopies. In the future they might want to start a new category (like "ultra HP") and thus they want to know about the canopies being used.

From mine small 250+ jumps experience with crossbrased canopies (regular Velo-79/84 and Scirocco-72/77) - not shorter than regular Velo with added 3 inches in brake lines. I didn't jump Comp Velo, so can't compare with it. A little different pressure in the bottom end, when you stay in deep brakes before turn.

No, I don't think so, the tail was not affected while pulling at the fronts. Just a slightly shorter stroke than the VX.

On the other hand, it was just a single jump and hmmm my friend's friend didn't want to provoke it, so it might have a stall point slightly further down.

There were no problems going from rears to toggles anyway and the swoop felt "right", no unexpected drop in lift while coming to a stop (unlike my FX-94 which I often stalled just as I came to a stop).

About brake lines: Skylark is NOT recommended to change brake lines length - it's precisely calculated for maximum efficiency. While swoop by rear risers brake lines do their job in holding trail of the wing. So You can chage brake length if only really know that You are doing. As for me, brakes much longer than Velocity's factory length, i.e. long enough. Skylark has recommendation about optimal risers length for all Scirocco sizes, using much longer risers causes short brakes effect. In attached pic Zver @ Scirocco-64

Now that the Scirocco has been approved in Sweden I've done around twenty jumps with it.

The openings are soft (and long), but almost never on heading. It streams a while on heading but as the slider starts to come down it picks a heading and dives towards it, sometimes turning the other way halfway through... Steering the openings on the rears does tame it a bit though.

It flies quite fast while braked.

I, with a WL of 2.2, flew together with my friend's Velo-84@2.5. I was slightly flying from him when we were diving with harness input. When using some toggle input to fly next to each other, I had to make myself big and he made himself smaller so I would not outfly him.

When flaring, I can pull the toggles almost as long as my arms are without stalling it. I do use longer risers than recommended (25" UPT with louie-loops).

I mounted some of PD's slider-stoppers upside down on the front risers, otherwise the RDS rings could come down slightly on the louie-loops and make them harder to grab. The rings are too small for the risers so I could not pull them down over the handles.

I start my 270s at 230m and when done right I am slightly in the corner and pull out on the rears.

I mounted some of PD's slider-stoppers upside down on the front risers, otherwise the RDS rings could come down slightly on the louie-loops and make them harder to grab. The rings are too small for the risers so I could not pull them down over the handles.

You can use "hammer mod" - work a little with hammer on top of risers to make them "narrower and softer" where risers have more material and sewing (attachment of loops on front risers and place of handles/rings on rear risers).

I had similar problem with regular slider on Velo and other canopies and big front loops with soft inserts - "hammer mod" solved it .

Rings are standard used in industry for regular sliders. Made in Sweden

Re: [dima39] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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Made 3 jumps with a Demo Scirocco 93 @ 2.3.

Openings:Definetly the most demanding canopy I ever flown in terms of openings.

Openings were soft, but 2 out of three times I got linetwists and became a passanger for a while even though I was extra carefull with my opening position.

Before the 1st jump, I was told by a fellowjumper to steer the opening. I didnt listen to him. My school of thought has always been that steering the opening will more likely cause you linetwists than prevent them. So on the first time I just made sure I open symmetrically and let the canopy sort out it self. As a result I ended up kicking out linetwist for a good 2000 feet. (luckily I opened at around 5000)

Before second jump I just had to check out from youtube, if all the competitive swoopers with scirocco really like to steer the opening and found out most do this quite agressively. (guess I was wrong)

On the second jump I tried pulling the rears symmetrically quite a bit on the snivel stage and it worked perfect. Almost 100% on heading.

However on the third it spun again resulting 1 twist which was luckily cleared quite fast. Definetly the most demanding canopy I ever flown in terms of openings. It felt like the canopy surges forward quite a bit at the end of the snivel and this may easily result in twists if you dont pull on the rears to stop the canopy from surging.

Flight

The trim felt very steep on full flight. You could however float it with brakes very well and the canopy didnt feel that sensitive for harness inputs on the brakes.

I was setting up for a relatively quick 270 at around 250meters. The canopy felt very ground hungry compared to a smaller Xaos 83 with which I have done the same speed rotations from around 190meters.

I felt the rears were very responsive, but the brakes were rather unresponsive and heavy.

Definetly not my choice for an everyday canopy. I felt it was too much of a handfull. Im not looking to be a competitive swooper so I think im gonna be better of with something easier like a Xaos.

EDIT: watching this Russian guy fighting with this canopy a new possible malfunction scenario came to my mind. Watch how he almost gets both of his hands stuck between the risers @ 2:04. Imagine not being able to use your arms at this point !!

EDIT: watching this Russian guy fighting with this canopy a new possible malfunction scenario came to my mind. Watch how he almost gets both of his hands stuck between the risers @ 2:04. Imagine not being able to use your arms at this point !!

it seems that openings got a bit better after he changed something (rings/lines? - google translate didn`t do very well)

Re: [NWPoul] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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None of those openings in the video provided were terminal openings. All hop & pop. Obviously openings are going to be less violent also.

What faractures where? Slider grommets? What plastic? Do you have a picture? The only plastic i remeber seeing on the canopy is the cable connecting the slider to the grommets. Do you mean this cable was caught on the lines or something?

With the tandem I pitched 10sec after exit. Dont worry, there was a lot of vertical separation before they deploy.

Re: [BMFin] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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Quote:

Maby you guys could come and hold us a safety seminar. It seems you have talent for these type of things. We clearly are reckles and dont have a clue what were doing.

Your above remarks are clearly sarcastic, but let's think about the situation - you're jumping a demo canopy on which you have had one good and one bad opening, and which you have heard is a handful and needs careful attention not to spin up. With this in mind your desicion is to exit with a tandem and pull in close proximity to them, as opposed to simply waiting 6 or 8 seconds in the door and adding some horizontal seperation between you and them.

You claim that you pulled soon after exit, couldn't you bypass the brief freefall with the tandem to build in an extra layer of safety?

Given the nature of your jump, jumping a demo that doesn't open well and a short freefall, I don't think it was a wise choice to exit with the tandem and pull in place next to them. You admit to kicking out of line twists for 2000ft on a previous jump, what if there had been a repeat of that?

Others mentioned a premature opening from the tandem, and this can happen for several reasons. Passengers have been known to yank a drouge release mid-freefall, TIs have been known to pull high if there is a problem with the passenger in freefall, and gear has been known to malfunction.

It was a bad call on your part. Get over it, learn something, and make better choices in the future.

Re: [piisfish] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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With the tandem I pitched 10sec after exit. Dont worry, there was a lot of vertical separation before they deploy.

what if they had a premature?

what if he had to cutaway on top of the tandem

he's claiming since the tandem usually opens 4,000' feet lower than his main deployment if he has to cutaway he will be able to cutaway and open his reserve and still be higher vertically than the tandem

Re: [5.samadhi] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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With the tandem I pitched 10sec after exit. Dont worry, there was a lot of vertical separation before they deploy.

what if they had a premature?

what if he had to cutaway on top of the tandem

he's claiming since the tandem usually opens 4,000' feet lower than his main deployment if he has to cutaway he will be able to cutaway and open his reserve and still be higher vertically than the tandem

And why he would not? Even if he was spinning 2k feet and then cutaway (as he did before) he would still have 2k altitude left. He had a questionable judgment call, but trashing that is happening here and off-topic posts... Come on. You always, always do everything 100% by the book? It would be nice to get back to the topic...

EDIT: watching this Russian guy fighting with this canopy a new possible malfunction scenario came to my mind. Watch how he almost gets both of his hands stuck between the risers @ 2:04. Imagine not being able to use your arms at this point !!

EDIT: watching this Russian guy fighting with this canopy a new possible malfunction scenario came to my mind. Watch how he almost gets both of his hands stuck between the risers @ 2:04. Imagine not being able to use your arms at this point !!

it looks like a lot of rears input on opening, let it open before you try to start flying it, and once is open then fix whatever you need to fix (highly recommend go with the turn and you will save yourself a few revolutions if you get line twist).

Depending on the wing loading (in higher wing loadings by just touching rears the canopy will violently turn where you wanted it to turn). On my JVX I am just a relax bag and I have pretty good openings and is loaded at 2.5/1.

Re: [BMFin] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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Maybe so but the not always pretty video shows he never even pulled on them and it opened.

If you must put rear riser input to open the canopy, that's a weird ass canopy, just asking to twist up... by design! That reminds me of the NZ Aerosports test jump videos when the canopy would just snivel for thousands of feet till they figured it out.

Re: [BMFin] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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Do you still fly it???

I've seen two scirocco fly, both of them flown by not so great swoopers so I can't really say how they perform. But both of pilot agrees that openings are beyond high performance, and it will scan the traffic for you left and right.

Re: [stayhigh] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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I dont fly it anymore. I only tested one demo for a few jumps. In my opinion the openings were horrible since it was so prone to linetwists.

I was initially told by a frined of mine that you need to pull down on the rears to have it open nicely. I didnt believe him, since I have always thought one shouldnt touch the rears during snivel. Friend of mine insisted that it even says so in the manual. I thought it was BS and didnt listen to him. After making a few jumps I had to admit he was right. It really seemed like the only option is to pull down on the rears during snivel and then try to steer the canopy. (you can read my experience I described earlier in this thread)

Re: [Zver] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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Or maybe is just packing and body position lol. I bet the manufacture doesn't said pull rears like your life depends on it, for the canopy to open properly, maybe I am wrong. I still remember the few first opening on my JVX, they were pretty wild, but now they are sweet, for either HnP or terminal.

Re: [BMFin] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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BMFin wrote:

In every video shown here, the pilot always pulls down on the rears. Can anyone show us a video of this canpy actually onpening well without pulling rears?

I have over 400 jumps on a Scirocco 82. 90% of my openings were on heading ONLY when pulling on the rears and letting it snivel. This canopy is not designed to open by relaxing in the harneess . I would do this and never touch my risers on most Velo openings, but this is a different machine.

Re: [highlee369] Scirocco - new x-braced main by Skylark take 1st place in Russian championship 2011
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highlee369 wrote:

BMFin wrote:

In every video shown here, the pilot always pulls down on the rears. Can anyone show us a video of this canpy actually onpening well without pulling rears?

I have over 400 jumps on a Scirocco 82. 90% of my openings were on heading ONLY when pulling on the rears and letting it snivel. This canopy is not designed to open by relaxing in the harneess . I would do this and never touch my risers on most Velo openings, but this is a different machine.

I personally love the openings and how this canopy flies.

Wonder what would happen if you shorten the lower steering lines (and making BK-TOG longer). But I guess the manufactor has tried that already..