McCarthy was very solid. Anderson hit a HR. That top of the 9th really stunk, though.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:20 PM

LAA used up all of their runs like we did in Seattle. We'll get 'em tomorrow.

TomParrish79

05-10-2006, 10:22 PM

ehhh it happens...we will get them tomorrow

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 10:23 PM

Obviously it wasn't the 'light air' in Tuscon that caused Haeger to get ripped to shreads.

Oh well. Send this kid back to where the Arnie Munoz's of the world reside, get McCarthy ready for Monday night, get Nelson to Charlotte and get Contreras back on the 20th of the month.

Now let's talk about that 'bullpen' shall we?

YIKES!

:o:

Lip

whitesoxfan

05-10-2006, 10:24 PM

gotta admire the fight we showed when we were down by 6. Like I said in the Game Thread, this team just does not quit no matter how much they are down by. You really have to respect that in a team.

let's have a solid start from JG tonight and we should be able to take the series :smile:

A.T. Money

05-10-2006, 10:24 PM

We spotting them 6 cost us. Maybe McCarthy should be starting?

ShoelessJoeS

05-10-2006, 10:25 PM

I guess 9-game winning streaks of any kind ARE hard to come by...:(:

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:25 PM

When Chris Daughtry was booted off American Idol, you knew this wasn't going to be a normal night.

SOX ADDICT '73

05-10-2006, 10:26 PM

If I hadn't watched this game and just checked the final score, I'd have thought, "Rookie starter, Angels team due for some luck, going against a pitcher named Santana...yeah, 12-5 sounds about right. Let's get them tomorrow."

I'm just glad the Sox were able to score some runs - didn't Santana hand Garland his first loss last year, making our hitters look pretty foolish in the process? Hitless through the first four had me worried tonight.

JUribe1989

05-10-2006, 10:26 PM

B-Mac made his case to take the other 2 starts during Contreras' injury. Or at least I would hope so. That was a great outing by B-Mac. Anderson looked good in the OF and hit a huge HR. Big 2 out hits by Pods and Gooch. There is no way this offense will score that much tomorrow off Big Jon. We are going to take the series tomorrow, but even if we don't we are still in first!

So be happy! :)

White_Sock

05-10-2006, 10:26 PM

It's all Haeger's fault!!!!

oeo

05-10-2006, 10:26 PM

Obviously it wasn't the 'light air' in Tuscon that caused Haeger to get ripped to shreads.

Oh well. Send this kid back to where the Arnie Munoz's of the world reside, get McCarthy ready for Monday night, get Nelson to Charlotte and get Contreras back on the 20th of the month.

Now let's talk about that 'bullpen' shall we?

YIKES!

:o:

Lip
Yeah, let's. This is exactly what I expected from Haeger today. They had chances to take the lead, but threw them out the window. And Bobby shouldn't come in if he's not feeling comfortable with his breaking ball...otherwise he's just throwing straight fastballs that are absolutely crushed. They really had a chance for a comeback and I think they could have won it in the 9th...IMO, Ozzie overmanaged the 9th. Cotts was fine to get the righty out.

Oh well, I wasn't really expecting to win this game anyway, sort of wished Haeger had something to show but we will get them tomorrow.

HotelWhiteSox

05-10-2006, 10:27 PM

Didn't have high hopes when this started since I hate knuckleballers, not sure why McCarthy didn't start but don't want to start an argument.

It's too bad Anderson didn't throw home, instead of to 3rd, in the middle of the game. He'd have had O-Cab out by 15 feet.

I really liked the fight they showed getting back into it... but they've been doing that all year.

ShoelessJoeS

05-10-2006, 10:28 PM

Fingernails on a blackboard made his case to take the other 2 starts during Contreras' injury. Or at least I would hope so. That was a great outing by Fingernails on a blackboard. Anderson looked good in the OF and hit a huge HR. Big 2 out hits by Pods and Gooch. There is no way this offense will score that much tomorrow off Big Jon. We are going to take the series tomorrow, but even if we don't we are still in first!

So be happy! :)It cracks me up everytime I see that filter.

PAPChiSox729

05-10-2006, 10:29 PM

Didn't have high hopes when this started since I hate knuckleballers, not sure why McCarthy didn't start but don't want to start an argument.

McCarthy didn't start because he's not stretched out for it. Ozzie said he didn't want to use him and only get two or three innings and blow out the bullpen.

It was in all the papers that if Haeger fell flat on his face (I'm still hearing the 'splat' even in Idaho! LOL) that McCarthy would get long work this week and get the start in Minnesota on Monday night.

After that it won't matter because Contreras is a solid shot to be back on the 20th!

:smile:

Lip

JB98

05-10-2006, 10:31 PM

Obviously it wasn't the 'light air' in Tuscon that caused Haeger to get ripped to shreads.

Oh well. Send this kid back to where the Arnie Munoz's of the world reside, get McCarthy ready for Monday night, get Nelson to Charlotte and get Contreras back on the 20th of the month.

Now let's talk about that 'bullpen' shall we?

YIKES!

:o:

Lip

Haeger didn't get hit that hard. He walked people, and that happens with a knuckle ball. I'm not opposed to giving him another start.

I'm shaking my head about Jenks inability to get guys out when he enters with men on base. Thornton has been inconsistent as well.

Anderson is swinging the bat much, much better. That's one positive from tonight.

TomParrish79

05-10-2006, 10:31 PM

I hear they are putting Tito Santana on the mound to face us tomorrow

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 10:34 PM

JB:

Haeger was in over his head from the first pitch. He was scared (and I can't say that I blame him...)

Jenks is no different for a lot of other good relief pitchers THEY DESPISE coming into a game in the middle of an inning.

Ozzie knows better....he pulled the same boner Friday night with the Royals.

And as I stated from day one, Thornton and Boone have no business being in the bullpen of a contending team...the Royals maybe.

Pick up the phone Kenny and buy youself a bullpen! Nelson was a nice first step but there's more work to do.

Lip

ChiSoxGirl

05-10-2006, 10:36 PM

Per the postgame show, Haeger has already been sent back down to AAA. There's no word as to who'll make the start on Monday.

FloridaSox

05-10-2006, 10:37 PM

Let's look at some bullpen ERAs

Thornton 7.04
Jenks 5.52
Politte 6.17
McCarthy

WSox8404

05-10-2006, 10:38 PM

JB:

Haeger was in over his head from the first pitch. He was scared (and I can't say that I blame him...)

Jenks is no different for a lot of other good relief pitchers THEY DESPISE coming into a game in the middle of an inning.

Ozzie knows better....he pulled the same boner Friday night with the Royals.

And as I stated from day one, Thornton and Boone have no business being in the bullpen of a contending team...the Royals maybe.

Pick up the phone Kenny and buy youself a bullpen! Nelson was a nice first step but there's more work to do.

Lip

Thanks for some sanity Lip. I am glad I am not the only one that can see that the bullpen needs a little help. I am not saying that the whole thing is a mess, but in its current state it is not that good.

Haeger was in over his head from the first pitch. He was scared (and I can't say that I blame him...)

Jenks is no different for a lot of other good relief pitchers THEY DESPISE coming into a game in the middle of an inning.

Ozzie knows better....he pulled the same boner Friday night with the Royals.

And as I stated from day one, Thornton and Boone have no business being in the bullpen of a contending team...the Royals maybe.

Pick up the phone Kenny and buy youself a bullpen! Nelson was a nice first step but there's more work to do.

Lip

Last year, McCarthy had some starts where he looked in over his head too. That's a rookie pitcher for you. I'm not willing to lump Haeger in with Arnie Munoz as the result of this. If Ozzie feels like we're better off with Brandon next Monday, then fine. But I'm not going to scream and holler and pitch a fit if Haeger gets another start.

This bullpen situation is more of a concern. We're good for at least one implosion a week at this point. Politte seems to be coming around, but we'll see. Cotts is looking good. Everyone else, you don't know what you're going to get.

WhiteSoxFan84

05-10-2006, 10:41 PM

Ok, ok, I'm kidding.

But was anyone else a LITTLE pissed off with Ozzie taking Cotts out in the 9th?

I'm sick and tired of this lefty vs. lefty, righty vs. righty crap and seeing it ALL the time. Maybe once in a while in a tie game or when you have a 1-run lead. But I just didn't think he should've brought in Jenks or anyone for that matter. Cotts was looking great and I would've taken my chances vs. Tim "I Smell Like" Salmon.

Also, was anyone else a little confused with why Ozzie pinch-ran Pablo Ozuna for Paul Konerko after two-outs rather than bringing him in when there were no-outs? Maybe Ozzie needs to "take himself out of the line-up one of these days" to get some rest. I love you regardless Oz, but today, some of the things you did had me going: :?:.

yeah he has a severe obsession with the L-L R-R matchups....someone needs to talk him out of it sometimes...

WSox8404

05-10-2006, 10:45 PM

Best record in baseball. Come back in off the ledge.

No one is on the ledge. But when a problem, no matter how small, becomes evident, then the only way to successfully make sure it doesn't harm you later on is to take care of it now. And from the looks of it the bullpen isn't that solid past Cotts and, well Cotts. Politte will come around as will McCarthy and Jenks. As for the other two, ehh. I know we can get someone better than that in there.

oeo

05-10-2006, 10:46 PM

Per the postgame show, Haeger has already been sent back down to AAA. There's no word as to who'll make the start on Monday.

Who's taking the extra roster spot?

Frankfan4life

05-10-2006, 10:46 PM

All I have to say is get well soon Jose. We really, really miss you.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:48 PM

No one is on the ledge. But when a problem, no matter how small, becomes evident, then the only way to successfully make sure it doesn't harm you later on is to take care of it now. And from the looks of it the bullpen isn't that solid past Cotts and, well Cotts. Politte will come around as will McCarthy and Jenks. As for the other two, ehh. I know we can get someone better than that in there.

Who? Who is out there on May 10 that can be had at bare bones prices? I wouldn't worry. This pen will look very different come July 31. Jeff Nelson to start.

It's way too early to start messing with the pen. If Oz leaves Cotts in, none of this discussion would be happening. If anything, the LL, RR stuff is to blame.

ChiSoxGirl

05-10-2006, 10:48 PM

Who's taking the extra roster spot?

I don't know, but Ozzie just announced that McCarthy will start Monday in Minnesota.

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 10:49 PM

Gang:

Agree 100 per cent about the bullpen talk. Things will be different come late June / July.

Let's put it this way LuvSox, if it's late August in a key game or the postseason would YOU be comfortable bringing in the 'dynamic duo' of Thornton or Boone.

(crickets chirping...)

Didn't think so.

Pick up the phone Kenny it's never to early to start planting the seeds.

Here's the BEST news of the night, courtesy White Sox.com:

"Jose Contreras was moving around better in the White Sox clubhouse prior to Wednesday's game and White Sox athletic trainer Herm Schneider said the staff ace was improving. Contreras will receive an epidural injection Thursday to help relieve the remaining pain."

Woo Hoo!!!

Lip

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 10:49 PM

Well atleast we got the worst game of the year off our back already

::Waits for the freakin dark clouds to swarm since this happened due to contreras' dl stint:::

Tragg

05-10-2006, 10:49 PM

What is the hesitancy about starting McCarthy? Isn't that the reason we traded for VAsqeuz, at least in part? To add depth to the rotation? Well, let's use it.
Is this "not stretched out" stuff legit?

flo-B-flo

05-10-2006, 10:50 PM

Can't win 'em all. We fans follow a great team. Gotta let 'em win once in a while. Or they won't come back. GO-GO SOX!

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:50 PM

Gang:

Agree 100 per cent about the bullpen talk.

Let's put it this way LuvSox, if it's late August in a key game or the postseason would YOU be comfortable bringing in the 'dynamic duo' of Thornton or Boone.

(crickets chiping...)

Didn't think so.

Same could be said for Marte and Viz. We're in fine shape.

ShoelessJoeS

05-10-2006, 10:51 PM

Who? Who is out there on May 10 that can be had at bare bones prices? I wouldn't worry. This pen will look very different come July 31. Jeff Nelson to start.

It's way too early to start messing with the pen. If Oz leaves Cotts in, none of this discussion would be happening. If anything, the LL, RR stuff is to blame.Maybe, but Jenks is just awful when coming into a game in the middle of an inning or with inherited runners. That, IMO, was the big mistake.

Jjav829

05-10-2006, 10:51 PM

If they sent Haeger back down this quickly, the plan all along must have been for him to only make one start.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:51 PM

Is this "not stretched out" stuff legit?

Ask Jon Adkins.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:52 PM

Maybe, but Jenks is just awful when coming into a game in the middle of an inning or with inherited runners. That, IMO, was the big mistake.

Agreed. Game 1 of the WS is the only time I can think of off the top of my head, where he was successful.

ChiSoxGirl

05-10-2006, 10:52 PM

What is the hesitancy about starting McCarthy? Isn't that the reason we traded for VAsqeuz, at least in part? To add depth to the rotation? Well, let's use it.
Is this "not stretched out" stuff legit?

My guess is that they'd rather not shift him back & forth from middle reliever to starter. I'm all for McCarthy starting on Monday. He has more than proven he can hold his own as a starter. See the Sunday game at Wrigley last June and the makeup game in Boston on Labor Day for proof.

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 10:52 PM

Gang:

Agree 100 per cent about the bullpen talk.

Let's put it this way LuvSox, if it's late August in a key game or the postseason would YOU be comfortable bringing in the 'dynamic duo' of Thornton or Boone.

(crickets chiping...)

Didn't think so.

Pick up the phone Kenny!

Here's the BEST news of the night, courtesy White Sox.com:

"Jose Contreras was moving around better in the White Sox clubhouse prior to Wednesday's game and White Sox athletic trainer Herm Schneider said the staff ace was improving. Contreras will receive an epidural injection Thursday to help relieve the remaining pain."

Lip
Boone logan has a sub 2 era in 9 games and both are doin better than politte. So stop this bitching on thortnon and logan, its startin to sound like the marte\vizcaino talk from last year. I suppose kenny should pull the trigger on buehrle and garcia cuz they arent performin how we want

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 10:53 PM

Ummm Bevi-Baby:

Both Marte and Viz had terriffic seasons at different points in their careers. They both had two or three years in the bigs as well.

Can you say the same about Thornton and Boone?

(crickets chirping)

Didn't think so.

Lip

Jjav829

05-10-2006, 10:53 PM

Let's put it this way LuvSox, if it's late August in a key game or the postseason would YOU be comfortable bringing in the 'dynamic duo' of Thornton or Boone.

No, but with the way we went last season, we might not need to call on one of them.:smile:

It's no secret that our bullpen isn't that good. I'm sure that's probably going to be Kenny's top priority as we get closer to the trade deadline.

ShoelessJoeS

05-10-2006, 10:53 PM

Agreed. Game 1 of the WS is the only time I can think of off the top of my head, where he was successful.I knew you were going to say that as soon as I submitted my post :D:

LuvSox

05-10-2006, 10:53 PM

Same could be said for Marte and Viz. We're in fine shape.

I was about to say the same thing.

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 10:55 PM

Ummm Bevi-Baby:

Both Marte and Viz had terriffic seasons at different points in theie careers. They both had two or three years in the bigs as well.

Can you say the same about Thornton and Boone?

(crickets chirping)

Didn't think so.

Lip

16 inning combined between thornton and boone and u wanna fire them already? Christ its only may and logans era is under 2

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 10:56 PM

Hey Stock:

How many INHERITED runners has the 'dynamic duo' allowed to score? Runs that were charged to OTHER pitchers.

Oh have you also taken a nanosecond to see the number of WALKS they've allowed?

You may want to take a look see.

Lip

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:56 PM

Ummm Bevi-Baby:

Both Marte and Viz had terriffic seasons at different points in theie careers. They both had two or three years in the bigs as well.

Can you say the same about Thornton and Boone?

(crickets chirping)

Didn't think so.

Lip

Did these 'terriffic' seasons happen in 2005?

(crickets chirping)

Didn't think so.

It's early and I find it really hard to give up on a 98mph-throwing lefty. Logan has been pretty damn good, surprisingly good. Hell, Boone has done more this year than Damaso did all last season. I'm fine with where they are right now.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 10:57 PM

I knew you were going to say that as soon as I submitted my post :D:

Ahh... memories!

ShoelessJoeS

05-10-2006, 10:58 PM

Geeeez, I know were all a little upset after this loss but come on people, play nice! You don't want this thread to be ****housed.

TheOldRoman

05-10-2006, 10:58 PM

Same could be said for Marte and Viz.
No. No it couldn't be said about Vizcaino, seeing as he was a good pitcher for us last year, and his ERA was inflated by one horrible outing. I don't know why this crap keeps coming up. So many people talk about Vizcaino as if he was Jon Adkins.:rolleyes:

On a side note, I was dissapointed to see that "not this again" pic with the guy ripping his hair out is actually not tagged.

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 10:59 PM

Bevi-baby:

Ummm no and no.

Marte's was 2003. Viz came off a great season with Milwaukee in 2004. That's why Kenny wanted him.

Bottom line...how many games do they have to blow, how many guys do they have to walk before you say 'OK.'

Please give me a number so I can check on it now and again.

Lip

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 11:00 PM

Hey Stock:

How many INHERITED runners has the 'dynamic duo' allowed to score? Runs that were charged to OTHER pitchers.

Oh have you also taken a nanosecond to see the number of WALKS they've allowed?

You may want to take a look see.

Lip

Judgin that we have the 4th lowest era in baseball, id say the inherited runs factor isnt a factor

also have u noticed hitters are hittin .206 on logan and not countin today .258 on thornton?

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 11:01 PM

Stock:

That's because batters don't need to swing against them. They can walk to first base. LOL

Lip

NSSoxFan

05-10-2006, 11:01 PM

Stock:

That's because batters don't need to swing against them. They can walk to first base. LOL

Lip

Lip, we get it, our bullpen is not good.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 11:02 PM

No. No it couldn't be said about Vizcaino, seeing as he was a good pitcher for us last year, and his ERA was inflated by one horrible outing. I don't know why this crap keeps coming up. So many people talk about Vizcaino as if he was Jon Adkins.:rolleyes:

On a side note, I was dissapointed to see that "not this again" pic with the guy ripping his hair out is actually not tagged.

Sorry OR... I don't share that feeling about Viz. He never came in, in any clutch situations down the stretch... and he was bad about stranding runners. But that said, he was our last guy out of the bullpen... and in those terms, he was PDG.

JB98

05-10-2006, 11:03 PM

No. No it couldn't be said about Vizcaino, seeing as he was a good pitcher for us last year, and his ERA was inflated by one horrible outing. I don't know why this crap keeps coming up. So many people talk about Vizcaino as if he was Jon Adkins.:rolleyes:

On a side note, I was dissapointed to see that "not this again" pic with the guy ripping his hair out is actually not tagged.

I agree; Viz was good for us the second half of the season. He is missed. Marte can take a long walk off a short pier as far as I'm concerned, but Viz became a valuable member of the bullpen as the year progressed.

To me, Thornton is the white Marte. Logan's control isn't good enough to be trusted in a key situation. That leaves us Cotts as a reliable lefty.

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 11:03 PM

Stock:

That's because batters don't need to swing against them. They can walk to first base. LOL

Judgin that we have the 4th lowest era in baseball, id say the inherited runs factor isnt a factor

also have u noticed hitters are hittin .206 on logan and not countin today .258 on thornton?
I seem to remember a certain Sox pitcher who has a low BAA last year, but struggled in the first half of the season because he wasn't finding the strikezone. Contrera? Something like that.
I don't remember how that turned out.

And no, I am not saying that either Logan or Thornton will become as great as Jose. I am just saying that they get out a good % of the guys they don't walk, and they both have good stuff. It would be ridiculous to give up on either one of them because the BP exploded twice this week. But in LipWorld, every day brings a reason to crap your pants.:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 11:04 PM

Stock:

For what it may be worth I was at the Friday game. 10th row seats near first base. Had a great look at the pitchers.

Those guys simply have trouble throwing strikes. Someday they may get over it but they don't have it right now. (Although Thornton has been around for a few years and still can't do it...)

Ozzie himself put it best....'we're here to win not develop guys.'

Lip

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 11:05 PM

Bevi-baby:

Ummm no and no.

Marte's was 2003. Viz came off a great season with Milwaukee in 2004. That's why Kenny wanted him.

Bottom line...how many games do they have to blow, how many guys do they have to walk before you say 'OK.'

Please give me a number so I can check on it now and again.

Lip
Lip, I love ya... but I didn't know 4-4 with a 3.80 ERA qualifies as a 'terriffic' season for a set up man. We all know what Marte did in 2003.

My thoughts... these are the last two out of the pen. One throws near 100mph and the other is a junk-baller. I like that 1-2 combo. Give them time... at least until the end of May.

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 11:05 PM

Stock:

For what it may be worth I was at the Friday game. 10th row seats near first base. Had a great look at the pitchers.

Those guys simply have trouble throwing strikes. Someday they may get over it but they don't have it right now. (Although Thornton has been around for a few years and still can't do it...)

And take it easy Roman...I've been a very good little boy for the last year and a half. Take off the rose colored glasses and stop drinking that Cubbie Kool-Aid. OK?

:D:

Bevi:

I agree with you because nothing can be done on May 10th...now JUNE 10th is another matter. I understand they are the last two out but those two have already cost the Sox two games this season. Ozzie uses his relief guys liberally. Remember that. Nelson may (I hope) supplant one of them a trade could take care of the other. We'll see.

Lip

TheOldRoman

05-10-2006, 11:08 PM

Stock:

For what it may be worth I was at the Friday game. 10th row seats near first base. Had a great look at the pitchers.

Those guys simply have trouble throwing strikes. Someday they may get over it but they don't have it right now. (Although Thornton has been around for a few years and still can't do it...)

Ozzie himself put it best....'we're here to win not develop guys.'

Lip
Do you remember how frustrating it was watching Contreras in the first half last year? I remember his game in Oakland in particular that made me want to smash things. Nothing is more frustrating than giving up walks. However, give it time. Our "horrible" bullpen has lead us to a horrible record of 23-10. We are winning with our pen the way it is now. Besides that, if anyone in the bullpen is not producing come July, they won't be on the team. Kenny likes to make trades every now and then.

BeviBall!

05-10-2006, 11:10 PM

Bevi:

I agree with you because nothing can be done on May 10th...now JUNE 10th is another matter. I understand they are the last two out but those two have already cost the Sox two games this season. Ozzie uses his relief guys liberally. Remember that. nelson may (I hope) supplant one of them) a trade could take care of the other. We'll see.

Lip

This, I agree 100% with. Come June 10, if it's the same song, I'll be singing the chorus along with you.

And take it easy Roman...I've been a very good little boy for the last year and a half. Take off the rose colored glasses and stop drinking that Cubbie Kool-Aid. OK?

:D:

Lip

U stated the reason logan has a low BAA is cuz why would they swing cuz of the walks. Well haeger was all over the place today and didnt stop the angels from free swingin(am i the only one who keeps tryin to type haeger and mistakenly types hangar?)

JB98

05-10-2006, 11:12 PM

Does anyone know what Hermanson's status is? The Chicago papers are too busy reporting on Carrie Woods to tell us how a reliever who had 34 saves for the 2005 champions is doing. Is it unrealistic to think Dustin could be the answer?

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 11:13 PM

U stated the reason logan has a low BAA is cuz why would they swing cuz of the walks. Well haeger was all over the place today and didnt stop the angels from free swingin(am i the only one who keeps tryin to type haeger and mistakenly types hangar?)

:?: :?:

Punctuation and capitalization are your friends.

Lip Man 1

05-10-2006, 11:15 PM

JB:

With respect to Dustin I think he's done. And for one important reason.

He had the ENTIRE off season to work on his back. He lifted, he stretched, he lost (by his own admission) ten pounds to help it.

First few times out on the mound after four and a half months off...bang...back problems.

If he'd return that would be great but you can't count on a 'miracle' and would be foolish to try.

Lip

StockdaleForVeep

05-10-2006, 11:18 PM

U stated the reason logan has a low BAA is cuz why would they swing cuz of the walks. Well haeger was all over the place today and didnt stop the angels from free swingin(am i the only one who keeps tryin to type haeger and mistakenly types hangar?)

:?: :?:

Punctuation and capitalization are your friends.

Heh dont duck the question. If haeger was walkin people nonstop tonight, why would anyone from the angels even attempt to swing. By your rhetoric, logans BAA is low cuz people dont swing because he walks\they dont swing. It doesnt compute.

longshot7

05-10-2006, 11:24 PM

Yes, B*Mac was great - looking forward to seeing him start again.

still the best record in baseball........

infohawk

05-10-2006, 11:35 PM

Thanks for some sanity Lip. I am glad I am not the only one that can see that the bullpen needs a little help. I am not saying that the whole thing is a mess, but in its current state it is not that good. I agree that the bullpen is the one area of our team that could use an upgrade, but I'm very happy with Bobby despite his one blown save and shaky outing tonight. It's hard to argue with the success he has had this year. I think Thornton is valuable when used appropriately, but he is understandably still a project and will have his ups and downs.

What makes our bullpen acceptable but certainly not perfect is that the starters (except tonight) go so deep into the games. That seems to make a bullpen with some question marks into a more effective bullpen because they get plenty of rest and aren't overexposed. Hopefully Nelson adds further stability. There really aren't too many shut down bullpens in major league baseball. Ours is probably better then most when you factor in the ability of our starters to pitch deep into games.

JB98

05-10-2006, 11:39 PM

I agree that the bullpen is the one area of our team that could use an upgrade, but I'm very happy with Bobby despite his one blown save and shaky outing tonight. It's hard to argue with the success he has had this year. I think Thornton is valuable when used appropriately, but he is understandably still a project and will have his ups and downs.

What makes our bullpen acceptable but certainly not perfect is that the starters (except tonight) go so deep into the games. That seems to make a bullpen with some question marks into a more effective bullpen because they get plenty of rest and aren't overexposed. Hopefully Nelson adds further stability. There really aren't too many shut down bullpens in major league baseball. Ours is probably better then most when you factor in the ability of our starters to pitch deep into games.

For the most part, I agree with you, although I'm not a fan of Matt Thornton. I just think we could use one more arm out there, and I'm sure KW will be on the prowl before the trade deadline. There will always be those who say we're 23-10, and everything is just fine the way it is. It is true we have a great record, but that doesn't mean KW shouldn't strive to shore up our weaknesses. To me, our only weakness is the bullpen. We're in great shape. We're a good team, but we can always get better.

Bill Naharodny

05-10-2006, 11:43 PM

Maybe we should go easy on Haeger here -- first outing and all. And also -- the typical nervousness that a pitcher might feel on his first outing is an even bigger problem for a knuckleball pitcher. He can't channel that energy into just throwing harder -- that's not how you throw that pitch.

And, yeah, I saw the Arnie Munoz game in Montreal. This -- I gotta say -- was not that.

I don't know when or where Haeger fits in (though I tend to agree with those who say it's not in the bullpen), but he's young, he's prospered in the minors and he's really just starting out with this pitch -- and learning how to complement it with other pitches.

Viva Medias B's

05-10-2006, 11:45 PM

:o:

My luck at USCF has not been good this year. Including tonight's loss, I've been to six games, and I'm 2-4! I was on hand for four of our five home losses! The first win was Opening Night, which I left during the rain delay when the score was tied at 3. The other one was the extra inning win against Seattle last week, a game that easily could have been a loss.

I am very happy about how we're doing and have no worries at all. But can they PLEASE win with me present!!!!

Jerko

05-10-2006, 11:49 PM

What bugs me the most about this game is all the hoo-hah (aka, bull****), about McCarthy not being able to start and burning out the bullpen, yet McCarthy pitches almost as long as the starter did AND we still used 5 pitchers anyway. Intentionally walking a guy so COTTS could come in for ONE BATTER? Bringing in your closer in the middle of the inning, with men on, while losing? Leaving Thornton out there in the monsoon because you don't want to waste yet another reliever? Start BMAC next time. If he gets his ass kicked, well, he gets his ass kicked. I thought he was our insurance policy in case of injury? Also, if you can pinch run and steal a base with TWO outs and a man on first, you can do it with NO outs and a man on first. Everybody knew when that steal worked with 2 outs that K-Rod was coming in. I hate bitching because I still think we are the best team out there, but I just don't like "mailing it in", which I think Ozzie did tonight. JMO, of course. :cool:

Lip Man 1

05-11-2006, 12:06 AM

Naharodny:

Mike Downey has just come out with a column at the Tribune where Haeger (The Horrible?? LOL For those that don't know it's the name of a comic strip) says he was nervous and was rushing things.

Which is why since it was simply one game the Sox should have brought up Redding or Nomo (if he was healthy) from Charlotte. At least they've been there (the majors) and wouldn't have the stress.

What you don't want to do is ruin a kid who is forced into action. Rauch and Munoz were never heard from again after their 'experiences.' I'm sure there were others. You hope this doesn't scar the kid...who knows he may actually have a future....on some other team after he's included in a deal by Kenny!

:D:

Lip

CLR01

05-11-2006, 12:15 AM

Hey Stock:

How many INHERITED runners has the 'dynamic duo' allowed to score? Runs that were charged to OTHER pitchers.

Oh have you also taken a nanosecond to see the number of WALKS they've allowed?

You may want to take a look see.

Lip

As many or about as many as Logan and any other relief pitcher on this
team. Thorton has has not done that bad with inherited runners so far.

I hear you about wrecking a kid's confidence (that's why I hope they gave him a few kind words before optioning him back to Charlotte about 5 minutes after his last knuckler knuckled, but that's another story), but some of that is an internal thing, too. I mean, Rauch never buttoned his pants and drove his car right out of the clubhouse after his last start (or something like that), so I'm not sure about his makeup. And, ultimately, I'm not sure about Rauch's stuff.

Now, I'm not sure about Haeger's stuff either, but I think they were right to give him first crack. Starting him in Minnesota doesn't sound so great, I'll admit, but I'm thinking that if he was able to wash out of baseball, go away for a year, and try a comeback with a completely new pitch -- he probably can handle getting the start, getting hit, and getting sent out.

Oh, and Mike Downey the Horrible is truly appropriate. That is what you meant, right?:tongue:

Bobbo35

05-11-2006, 12:34 AM

Good to see you at the game Hangar18. Overall, I like the way the Sox stayed in the game, shows how good this team is. I wish McCarthy would have started because he pitched extremely well in relief. The Sox will get them tommorow.

Mike Downey has just come out with a column at the Tribune where Haeger...says he was nervous and was rushing things.

Which is why since it was simply one game the Sox should have brought up Redding or Nomo (if he was healthy) from Charlotte.

It is the Mark Gonzales recap of the game that you are paraphrasing. Haeger admits he had first-game jitters and was throwing it much faster than he usually does (mid 70's vs. mid 60's). This was quite obvious from watching him early on. No knuckleball is going to stay in the strike zone consistently when you are throwing it that hard. It is just too unpredictable. It is a finesse pitch. Which makes it all the more difficult for a 22/23 year old rookie.

I don't think the Haeger experiment was a disaster nor that the final nail should not be placed in his coffin. He seemed to have a pitch that folks couldn't hit when he was on and when he was hit the defense could've been sharper. Having a few runs on the board for him or even a few hits would've probably helped him settle in too.

I don't see Redding or Nomo as a better alternative. A game here and there for a minor leaguer with potential to come up, get some experience, and get hungry to come back is a good thing.

Luckily, this is not an everyday occurrence for this team and we have suitable alternatives.

Lip Man 1

05-11-2006, 12:48 AM

Slugger:

You're right. Thank you about confusing Downey and Mark.

Lip

chisoxmike

05-11-2006, 01:21 AM

I think there was some overmanagement tonight on Ozzie's part...but the team still has to go out there and score runners on third base.

I like how the Sox came from being DEAD for most of the game. Hager was what I expected in the poll yesterday..."bad"

Go get em tomorrow boys!

Grzegorz

05-11-2006, 04:48 AM

Haeger didn't get hit that hard. He walked people, and that happens with a knuckle ball. I'm not opposed to giving him another start.

Naw, I've seen enough. Whether he gets hit hard consistently is not an issue; what is an issue is that he walked people and then was hit hard when it mattered most.

Knuckleball pitchers you can keep; it was a nice experiment and a way to fill a hole in the rotation but please don't try this again.

santo=dorf

05-11-2006, 06:44 AM

Same could be said for Marte and Viz. We're in fine shape.
sigh...............

The blind Vizcaino bashing nevers gets old. I would love to have Luis back.

BeviBall!

05-11-2006, 06:49 AM

sigh...............

The blind Vizcaino bashing nevers gets old. I would love to have Luis back.
sigh........

And the fact you can't quote the post, in this thread, where I explain why I feel this way also never gets old.

Frater Perdurabo

05-11-2006, 08:17 AM

The 'curse' of the Sox minor league pitchers strikes again.

Yeah, the Sox have been "cursed" with the likes of Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy, who came up through our minor league system (Garland originally drafted by the Cubs, of course).
:kukoo:

batmanZoSo

05-11-2006, 08:38 AM

Yeah, the Sox have been "cursed" with the likes of Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy, who came up through our minor league system (Garland originally drafted by the Cubs, of course).
:kukoo:

I know what Lip is saying there. Other than the few that panned out, the rest have been just amazingly bad.

McCarthy should've started last night plain and simple. He comes in and we almost win the game. Yeah, he's valuable in the bullpen, but doesn't that show you (among many other things) that we need some bullpen help?

Baby Fisk

05-11-2006, 08:42 AM

I know what Lip is saying there. Other than the few that panned out, the rest have been just amazingly bad.

McCarthy should've started last night plain and simple. He comes in and we almost win the game. Yeah, he's valuable in the bullpen, but doesn't that show you (among many other things) that we need some bullpen help?
I have to agree with Bats here (is this a first?). The Angels' announcers were practically drooling over B-M-A-C's changeup. The shaky ninth by the rest of the pen may have quashed his chance to get a start, tho.

Hitmen77

05-11-2006, 08:48 AM

I have to agree with Bats here (is this a first?). The Angels' announcers were practically drooling over B-M-A-C's changeup. The shaky ninth by the rest of the pen may have quashed his chance to get a start, tho.

I thought the Sox already announced that B Mac is starting next Monday.

Haegar did pretty much what I expected of him. He's not ready. I'm not worried. McCarthy will start Monday and Jose will be back after that.

Baby Fisk

05-11-2006, 08:55 AM

I thought the Sox already announced that B Mac is starting next Monday.

Haegar did pretty much what I expected of him. He's not ready. I'm not worried. McCarthy will start Monday and Jose will be back after that.
Thanks, I hadn't heard that yet. Go B Mac!

batmanZoSo

05-11-2006, 08:57 AM

I thought the Sox already announced that B Mac is starting next Monday.

Haegar did pretty much what I expected of him. He's not ready. I'm not worried. McCarthy will start Monday and Jose will be back after that.

Yeah McCarthy gets the ball next time. He's a weapon other teams dream about, we should use him. You can afford to experiment when you're 23-9, I guess.

But NOT when you're 23-10.

Frater Perdurabo

05-11-2006, 09:26 AM

I know what Lip is saying there. Other than the few that panned out, the rest have been just amazingly bad.

True, but most minor league pitchers never make it to the big leagues, much less perform well. Most of those who do make it had plenty of rough outings at the very beginning of their MLB careers. The odds are stacked against any pitcher coming into the big leagues and dominating in their very first start. My point is that we shouldn't think the Sox are cursed because many of their pitchers have faltered, but rather be thankful that the Sox organization has developed Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy (and furthermore has harnessed the raw talent of Contreras when the Yankess were unable to do so). Where would the Sox be without home-grown pitchers like Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy? Probably not defending World Champions and probably not in first place this year.

Hitmen77

05-11-2006, 09:33 AM

Yeah McCarthy gets the ball next time. He's a weapon other teams dream about, we should use him. You can afford to experiment when you're 23-9, I guess.

But NOT when you're 23-10.

I thought McCarthy was not an option yesterday because he was not "stretched out" enough to go as a starter.

To be honest, I really don't know what "stretched out" means. Does that mean he needs to build up arm endurance? Also, since he's starting Monday, does that mean that another 5 days will be enough time for him to get stretched out?

batmanZoSo

05-11-2006, 09:43 AM

I thought McCarthy was not an option yesterday because he was not "stretched out" enough to go as a starter.

To be honest, I really don't know what "stretched out" means. Does that mean he needs to build up arm endurance? Also, since he's starting Monday, does that mean that another 5 days will be enough time for him to get stretched out?

Because they chose not to stretch him out and start Haeger.

McCarthy should have no problem getting acclimated to starting. He's as close to a starter, length of appearance-wise, as a reliever can get. Yesterday's outing will help being that he went long and it's 5 days until his scheduled start.

SOXPHILE

05-11-2006, 10:01 AM

I thought McCarthy was not an option yesterday because he was not "stretched out" enough to go as a starter.

To be honest, I really don't know what "stretched out" means. Does that mean he needs to build up arm endurance? Also, since he's starting Monday, does that mean that another 5 days will be enough time for him to get stretched out?

They need him to be able to go 6-7 innings, that's all it means. I guess he hasn't done that yet. But, with the 4 innings he pitched last night, he looks like he should be able to go a couple of more next time out.:cool: If he starts Monday, that gives him 4 days rest from yesterdays relief outing 'till Monday. IMO, since he's been coming out of the BP, it's good that they build him up slowly, 2 innings, then 3, and last night, 4, so when they DO need hime to go 6-7, he's ready.

gobears1987

05-11-2006, 10:28 AM

THis game was so much like some of the 2004 games. Oh well, BMac starts in a few days and will suceed.. Besides, we were gonig to lose since we can't get a 9 game streak.

Johnny Mostil

05-11-2006, 11:28 AM

The odds are stacked against any pitcher coming into the big leagues and dominating in their very first start.

Well, golly, McCarthy did well in his very first start, going 5 1/3 and giving up only 2 ER. Of course, he only went 5 in his second and gave up 6 ER, and only 4 2/3 in his third and gave up another 6 ER. But the important thing is he won that first start, right? Oh, wait, he didn't?

Criminy, I (honestly) love this place. Yesterday we have a thread featuring straight-line interpolation of a 23-9 start. Yeah, it had the obligatory dark cloud on regression toward the mean being regression toward disaster, but still a general consensus that a team that has won 100 games exactly once in its long history will win well over that number (and, if repeating, do something no repeating champ has done in a half-century--improve on the previous season's record). A few short hours later, we have a post-game thread obsessing about relief pitching--after the Sox gave up four runs before they get their first baserunner and six runs before they get their first hit--and in a thread that is longer than those for many wins of recent days. Some of you are as crazy as I am . . .

Frater Perdurabo

05-11-2006, 12:21 PM

Well, golly, McCarthy did well in his very first start, going 5 1/3 and giving up only 2 ER. Of course, he only went 5 in his second and gave up 6 ER, and only 4 2/3 in his third and gave up another 6 ER. But the important thing is he won that first start, right? Oh, wait, he didn't?

I may be mistaken, Johnny Mostil, but I believe you misinterpreted the point of my post by selecting only that one sentence to quote. It's a shame, too, because I agree with you! I wrote that sentence to point out how lucky the Sox are to have three great home-grown "starting" pitchers in Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy. Very few teams can say that. (Two of the three Cubs home-grown starters are on the DL!)

For anyone to expect Haeger to come in and throw a shutout is beyond ridiculous, but some dark clouds on here start scudding when he gets roughed up a bit in his MLB debut, and they develop a "woe is us" attitude when they remind themselves of other less than stellar debuts. It's not reasonable to expect a Wilson Alvarez-like debut from every guy the Sox call up. What I am saying is that we ought to give Haegar a break and not "throw him under the bus" because he was less than stellar in his debut.

:rolleyes:

Johnny Mostil

05-11-2006, 12:43 PM

I may be mistaken, Johnny Mostil, but I believe you misinterpreted the point of my post by selecting only that one sentence to quote. It's a shame, too, because I agree with you! I wrote that sentence to point out how lucky the Sox are to have three great home-grown "starting" pitchers in Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy. Very few teams can say that. (Two of the three Cubs home-grown starters are on the DL!)

For anyone to expect Haeger to come in and throw a shutout is beyond ridiculous, but some dark clouds on here start scudding when he gets roughed up a bit in his MLB debut, and they develop a "woe is us" attitude when they remind themselves of other less than stellar debuts. It's not reasonable to expect a Wilson Alvarez-like debut from every guy the Sox call up. What I am saying is that we ought to give Haegar a break and not "throw him under the bus" because he was less than stellar in his debut.

:rolleyes:

You're mistaken, because I'm too obtuse. I only picked that sentence because it gave me an opportunity to comment on some other things that were under my craw after reading this thread. I agree with all the particulars of your original post.

Haeger--like every other pitcher--has to have a first start. Sometimes, as you note, it works out. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does, then doesn't, but works out later. Who knows? But the handwringing over it all is amusing--or at least it is while the team is otherwise doing so well.

viagracat

05-11-2006, 12:46 PM

I'm figuring Ozzie is hoping for 5-6 innings out of McCarthy Monday, which sounds reasonable, especially if the other starters can go deep into their games before then. Which also seems reasonable.

As I said yesterday, it's a nice position to be in when you can experiment with a guy like Haeger and no matter what happens, you're still 23-10 and in first. OK, Haeger didn't get it done, and now we have a better understanding of what he can and can't do. The Sox didn't throw away a win by starting Haeger; they nearly came back to tie it up until the pen imploded in the 9th.

I really do not understand the reasoning behind demoting Haeger. Pitchers generally rush their delivery in their first Major League start, and that is suicide for a knuckleball pitcher. Why not keep him and pitch him in relief in a blow-out at some point? That way he can get confidence and experience. Instead, we are probably going to start McCarthy for Contreras, and burn up an option for Tracey. What is the point? Why not just leave Tracey at AAA and give Haeger some more work? We have already used up one of Haeger's options.

Frater Perdurabo

05-11-2006, 01:40 PM

You're mistaken, because I'm too obtuse. I only picked that sentence because it gave me an opportunity to comment on some other things that were under my craw after reading this thread. I agree with all the particulars of your original post.

Thanks for clearing it up. I'm pretty verbose, obtuse and turgid with my prose, which often causes me problems! Glad we agree that scudding dark clouds need to go cry in their beer somewhere else!

Oh, and we've got to have one of these now:

:tomatoaward:

maurice

05-11-2006, 02:03 PM

Yeah, the Sox have been "cursed" with the likes of Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy, who came up through our minor league system (Garland originally drafted by the Cubs, of course).
:kukoo:

If you count Garland, you can throw in Cotts and Jenks, too. It's clearly correct that, when you begin by excluding all the ones who are really good, the rest all suck. This reminds me of the offseason thread where a poster complained that all OF and RP from the Sox organization are busts...except for the 20 of them who currently are playing throughout MLB on a daily basis.
:rolleyes:

Folks, please realize that it's almost impossible to break into the majors as a pitching prospect on a very good team (as opposed to a team like the Royals). If you struggle at all in your MLB debut (at the age of 22 against the 2nd best team in baseball last year), you get sent down to the minors and roundly criticized by a bunch of know-it-alls who are certain that you'll never amount to anything. Of course it sometimes is true that the pitcher is fodder who never amounts to anything. The rest of the time, he turns out to be Neal Cotts . . . sometimes with the Sox and sometimes with another club.

As it currently stands, not one person on this board knows whether Haegar and Boone are the next Neal Cotts or the next Dave Sanders. Only time will tell.

Johnny Mostil

05-11-2006, 02:03 PM

Oh, and we've got to have one of these now:

:tomatoaward:

:redneck I had put off a reply until after we hit 100, because I didn't want to cause somebody to pick a tomato for this one!

Frater Perdurabo

05-11-2006, 02:19 PM

If you count Garland, you can throw in Cotts and Jenks, too. It's clearly correct that, when you begin by excluding all[COLOR=black] the ones who are really good, the rest all suck.

Exactly. We Sox fans have no reason to complain given the pitchers the Sox have developed in-house, without whom the Sox would not be world champs.

DickAllen72

05-11-2006, 05:44 PM

Obviously it wasn't the 'light air' in Tuscon that caused Haeger to get ripped to shreads.

Oh well. Send this kid back to where the Arnie Munoz's of the world reside, get McCarthy ready for Monday night, get Nelson to Charlotte and get Contreras back on the 20th of the month.

Now let's talk about that 'bullpen' shall we?

YIKES!

:o:

Lip

Give the kid (22yrs) a break, for cryin' out loud!

He did not get ripped to shreds. He only gave up five hits. The rally against him started out with the leadoff man getting on with a strike out.

His problem was control. Not uncommon for a 22 year old making his major league debut. Actually his knuckleball had so much movement on it, it was hard for him to get it over the plate.

I'm not saying his performance was great, or even very impressive. But I saw some good things from him out there, and he's definitely worth not giving up on.

DickAllen72

05-11-2006, 05:47 PM

Folks, please realize that it's almost impossible to break into the majors as a pitching prospect on a very good team (as opposed to a team like the Royals). If you struggle at all in your MLB debut (at the age of 22 against the 2nd best team in baseball last year), you get sent down to the minors and roundly criticized by a bunch of know-it-alls who are certain that you'll never amount to anything. Of course it sometimes is true that the pitcher is fodder who never amounts to anything. The rest of the time, he turns out to be Neal Cotts . . . sometimes with the Sox and sometimes with another club.

As it currently stands, not one person on this board knows whether Haegar and Boone are the next Neal Cotts or the next Dave Sanders. Only time will tell.

Thank you!

Lip Man 1

05-11-2006, 07:14 PM

Dick:

Did you see the numbers he put up in Tuscon?

OK.

Now then he allowed five hits and six walks in less then five innings of work.

Please substitute any word you wish for 'ripped'... the results are the same.

I'm not giving up on him either Dick. I'm sure he'll be a fine addition to a deal pulled off by Kenny in the next 18 months because as long as the big club keeps the current six starters, this guy has ZERO chance of cracking the rotation.

Oh by the way I found out an interesting point at White Sox.com. They have a story about the latest call up from Charlotte... Montero.

Apparently the regular minor league umpires are on strike. They are using high school umpires according to Don Cooper. That somewhat explains the gaudy numbers put up by Haeger, Montero and Lopez.

Those numbers are staggeringly different from their travails in Tuscon.

Anyway it doesn't matter. Contreras should be back soon, Jeff Nelson is on the way and the subs will be back at Charlotte soon enough along with the current back end left handers on the big club.

It's all good! :D:

Lip

ewokpelts

05-11-2006, 07:32 PM

I'm figuring Ozzie is hoping for 5-6 innings out of McCarthy Monday, which sounds reasonable, especially if the other starters can go deep into their games before then. Which also seems reasonable.

As I said yesterday, it's a nice position to be in when you can experiment with a guy like Haeger and no matter what happens, you're still 23-10 and in first. OK, Haeger didn't get it done, and now we have a better understanding of what he can and can't do. The Sox didn't throw away a win by starting Haeger; they nearly came back to tie it up until the pen imploded in the 9th.