I think that any group that wants to use the power of the government to discriminate against one group of people is essentially a left wing group. It is the left that believes in a large government that controls the decision making process over most aspects of life. They are the ones who believe that the government should hand out government goodies based on group grievances while conservatives really believe in the founding principles of this country, the ideas in the Declaration of Independence and the rules outlined in the Constitution. The constitution and its limits on power, really annoys the left. Also, don't forget that the Klan was created by people who were democrats and believed that the government should discriminate against African Americans. That emphasis on government action really makes them more left than right. The Bikers that you mention tend, probably, to lean more into the neo-nazi belief sysstem. Nazis, are by their own name socialists. Once again they believe in government power to discriminate. Also, these groups are non-existant as far as real influence. Even the militia groups that are neo-nazi are left rather than right. A real right wing extremist would be someone who goes into the woods to have as little as possible to do with any centralized government authority. Also, anarchists are lefties, not righties.another problem is that the groups you have mentioned are fringe groups with no real political power or influence. The lefty racist groups, the NAACP, ACORN, the Democrat party, are powerful, and exert real influence in the country. They fight against school voucher programs which would let minorities in inner city horrible schools actually get an education. They fight against teaching hispanic students in English, which studies have shown hurts their ability to adapt to the success track of this country. I remember taking an education class in college. We saw the movie about Jaime Escalante, the math teacher in California who taught advanced placement calculus to mainly hispanic students. All of the liberals loved the movie, until later, when they found out that Jaime supported English only teaching. They were destroyed. He said that teaching english was the best way to help his kids succeed in this country. Also, the teachers union and the teachers in his school drove him out of the profession. A lot of the racism is more a warped paternalism by some major liberal organizations, on the one hand, and an outright desire to isolate minorities for political purposes on the other hand. Some of my thoughts. When the guys finally lock down this thread, e-mail me and we can talk in private, until then, let me know what you think. Thanks.

Remember too that David Duke was a famous racist who tried to run on the republican ticket. He was cast out by the party and ridiculed every step of the way. The democrats had as one of their most powerful members Senator Robert Byrd, he was an actual member of the KKK, he recruited for them and started his own chapter as a young man. He also stated at one point that he would rather Old Glory, our flag, fall and be trampled in the mud before he would ever allow blacks to serve with whites. He stayed in the democrat party and was praised by Bill Clinton who excused his klan membership by saying that joining the klan was just something you had to do to get elected back then. Also, Bill Clinton's political mentor, Jay William Fulbright was a devout segregationist and yet Clinton claims him as an important person in his life. Barak Obama sat in a church for twenty years that preached hatred for whites and this country. The preacher, reverend Wright, married him and michelle, and baptized their children. Racism of one stripe or another is all throughout the modern democratic party, and yet the Republicans are called the racists. When Trent Lott, the former Senate majority leader for the republicans, said nice things about Strom Thurmond, how, if he had been elected president we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we have now, everyone accused him of supporting racism. Strom Thurmond, in his youth had been a segregationist, but had renounced it. It didn't matter that Lott was just trying to say nice things to an old man at a birthday party, the republicans forced him out of his leadership position. Not too long ago, a democrat said about the same things about one of their old time racists at some function, he not only kept his positions in congress but the democrats closed ranks aroung him.

This is an issue I have with the party system, nowadays you really don't know what you're getting, there is so much overlap, though undoubtedly there are general consistencies for each side. I get your reasoning I just don't agree that all the racists or real racists are on the left. There are a lot on each side from what I can tell. That being said, I'm not expert in this I'm not even all that itnerested in politics in any serious way, too much BS. I do hate how the word racist is just thrown about now for everything. People need to grow some thicker skin. Just because you're being arrested, or checked in an airport, etc. doesn't mean we're racist it means we're looking where the current threat is most likely to come from. It's jsut good security. Like I've said before, if someone is going aroudn dicing peopel up and burrying the bodies in their fridge it's probably a white person. Doesn't mean white people are messed up, it's cultural or something, I don't know, but regardless of cause, facts speak for themselves.

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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

I am really glad you aren't being condescending, that would make my feelings hurt.

So if I understand correctly, you are a guy who has read a few books buys other guys books and listens to them when they go on radio shows which are propaganda based programing for the far right. And you are a (apparently disgruntled) government worker with a LAS degree. (some say Liberal Arts and Science others say Lost and Searching, I'll let the peanut gallery decide)

I am a guy who grew up in the inner city and went to public school, lucky I was gifted and through a series of events was able to go to public college which of course was much cheaper then the private option but God Forbid we give the state any credit for that.

Anyway, after a few years working I saved up and opened my own company and after a decade we have grown into a mid sized business that as I mentioned employees several hundred people. I pay a lot of taxes and healthcare, and actually do the things you read about in your little books or listen to on your little shows (in case your wondering, yes I am being condescending:)

So when you preach to me about economics or the tax burden or healthcare, I ask you what do you know of it? When was the last time you had to write a check for it? Because I write them every week my friend. I bet I pay more in taxes this Friday than you make in a year, so don't talk to me about reading to much left wing propaganda. I don't have time for it, and by the way the lefties don't have 2000 radio shows dedicated to left wing propaganda. Despite what your radio clowns tell you, CNN and MSNBC are not left wing media types. They work for the same business interests that your friends do, just a watered down version for a milder viewer who likes their kool aide with a slash of Jessica Alba.

How much time do you spend listening too the BBC or NPR? How about the ED Show or Randy Rhodes or Rachel Maddow?

Of those shows which are left, which are news and which are opinion? Because my guess is you only listen to news sources that are propaganda sources, which means everything you know is wrong, or slanted. How could it be anything but?

I've read through your points and they are so disjointed and mis guided I don't even know where to start.

But I will say that I can understand some of your frustrations. Government workers due to liberal work policies become like union workers in their sense of entitlement. The work ethic is terrible and the days work for the days pay is no where near what it should be. So when I stated earlier that I felt you had good reason to be angry, I truly meant it. I also truly think you've focused your anger incorrectly.

Bigger Government is not the answer, your people have that correct, but unchecked business is the real problem of the last 30-40 years. They have taken over the media, corrupted information driven down wages, gutted the middle class. The list goes on and on. And now they've created an army of people angry at the government, which really had very little to do with the problems they face in their day to day lives.

How about we attack the arguments and not the people we're arguing with?

Edited by Stormdragon (09/06/1011:32 AM)

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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

"unchecked business."Sounds to me that you fall under that category Mr. rich business owner. Not attacking you but you're painting a picture of yourself as being just like any other greedy business owner who does exactly what you're talking about.

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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Not attacking you but you're painting a picture of yourself as being just like any other greedy business owner who does exactly what you're talking about.

How do you figure?

I think my point is I have vested interest in smaller government, which lends credibility to why I think the Tea Party is way off the mark. Rush and Beck crowd and selling a product to people who should be buying something else. They are not acting in their own self interest.

I am all for free enterprise, but the playing field needs to be fair. Winner take all leads to Anarchy and the collapse of society. Probably why my friends tag me with the limousine liberal as a joke.

You've mentioned several times the fact that you are in charge of hundreds of people, never have to work again, your business is very successful, and more detail on your lfiestyle in pm's.

Which begs the question, what sets you apart from the unchecked busines owners who you say are the cause of so many ills?

Now I agree there has to be SOME regulation to a degree by the federal government but the key word being SOME. While the current administration is looking for a LOT of regulation. Which in theory makes sense to me but as far as I know that has always ended up decreasing production and quality of performance, results in layoffs and all that stuff.

The bigger a buiness can grow (i.e. becoming unchecked in your words) the more jobs are created. I do think there needs to be regulation in terms of preventing an increase in outsourcing and the hiring of non-citizens for extremely low wages (admittedly very difficult).

I have no issue with you for being the owner of a good sized business, good for you, like I said that creates jobs (and looking at a previous statement you said you worked for a number of years, I'm assuming at a low level before becoming a business owner which gains my respect), but it seems like you have a lot of issues with big business in general and essentially you are one (maybe not a "big" business but big enough). I guess I just don't quit understand where you stand on everything.

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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,