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ramana wrote:I always wondered about the timing of the 1965 war. According to Sidney Griffin in Crisis Games, the war eas gamed to begin in September 1966. The book foreward says book is based on a classified version of the game. We know Philip Talbot was working on his book on the War that changed the Indian sub-continent as he told K.S garu. Writing a book takes time!

Everyone says Ayub Khan fast forwarded the date by a year due to his own fears.

Something that India did or put in motion panicked the powers and triggered this war.

I think I got the trigger.LBS authorized the Subterranean Nuclear Explosion Program (SNEP) in early 1965 after China test in October 1964.India got language agitation, 1965 War, LBS dead in Tashkent, Bhabha dead in Switzerland in 1966, NOT in 1968.

Even this did not end the PM's woes. A shrewd judge of his own party's mood, he realised that he had to mobilise its support and felt this could be best done through the executive committee of the Congress Parliamentary Party that had become very conscious of its power after virtually forcing Nehru to sack Krishna Menon. Under Shastri, it had become even more assertive. He chose to mollify it by announcing that Bhabha had assured him that nuclear explosives could be used both "destructively as well as constructively". For instance, an underground nuclear explosion could "drill a tunnel across a mountain or construct a canal for people's welfare". So he was authorising a Subterranean Nuclear Explosion Project (SNEP).

Unfortunately, soon afterwards erupted the virulent language crisis, followed by the Kutch conflict and the 1965 war with Pakistan. On January 11, 1966, Shastri died at Tashkent. A fortnight later, Bhabha was killed in a plane crash near Mont Blanc that may not have been an accident. For a long while interest was diverted from SNEP and the Chinese bomb.

I'm reposting a comment of mine from March 2017:

It seems that in 1965, approximately, Prime Minister Shastri made the decision to test a nuclear weapon so as to make India a nuclear-weapon state (NWS) according to the NPT. That's why both he and Dr. Homi Bhabha were murdered by the CIA in January 1966. (The NPT was opened up for signature in 1968, and the cut-off date to conduct a nuclear test and be recognized as an NWS was January 1, 1967.) That's why the Indian government has proceeded so cautiously for the past few decades. This is also why Prime Minister Modi (BJP) has shown great respect for the legacy of Prime Minister Shastri (Congress Party).

When I was a student, I wondered why the Indian government seemed to sit on its hands and do nothing while it was left out in the cold regarding the NPT. Now I know better: the Indian government was planning to enter the NPT as an NWS. To prevent that, the CIA launched a destabilization and assassination campaign.

Older Indians should tell younger Indians what happened. Knowledge of this has radically re-shaped my understanding of Indian history and politics. By the way, this is why the Indian government seems to behave so erratically ... Indian leaders know that if they're predictable, they'll be killed. India has to move forward while zig-zagging. To move forward in a straight line is too dangerous, given the international security environment and the reality that India's not a police state.

^^^There are accounts that the KGB was listening to LBS's room in Tashkent and heard him in the process of death, but did nothing to save him. It is very likely the Soviets poisoned LBS and Bhabha was killed by a combined US and British intel operation.

^^^Soviets at the time thought weak leadership in India would cause communists to gain upper hand. They may have thought India could be in their orbit like Egypt was. It's important to remember what was playing out on the world stage in late 1965. The US was trying to contain communism and the Chinese fell out with the Russians.

I think the Soviets are innocent ... The Anglo-Americans didn't need the Soviets' help to murder the Prime Minister. (As is well known, the US-UK had many Indian assets.) Involving the Soviets would endanger the operation ... With covert operations, it's not wise to involve more people than absolutely necessary. Also, for what it's worth, retired CIA officer Robert Crowley claimed that the CIA killed both Shastri and Bhabha. (Crowley was the assistant deputy director for operations--that's second-in-command at the Directorate of Operations--so he's a credible source.)

Known as 'The Crow' within the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Robert T. Crowley ('Bob' Crowley) joined the CIA at its inception and spent his entire career in the Directorate of Plans, also know as the 'Department of Dirty Tricks,' Crowley was one of the tallest man ever to work at the CIA. Born in 1924 and raised in Chicago , Crowley grew to six and a half feet when he entered the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in N.Y. as a cadet in 1943 in the class of 1946. He never graduated, having enlisted in the Army, serving in the Pacific during World War II. He retired from the Army Reserve in 1986 as a lieutenant colonel.

Bob (Robert) Crowley first contacted journalist Gregory Douglas in 1993 and they began a series of long and often very informative telephone conversations that lasted for four years. In 1996, Crowley told Douglas that he believed him to be the person that should ultimately tell Crowley 's story but only after Crowley 's death. Douglas, for his part, became so entranced with some of the material that Crowley began to share with him that he secretly began to record their conversations, later transcribing them word for word, planning to incorporate some, or all, of the material in later publications.

In 1998, when Crowley was slated to go into the hospital for exploratory surgery, he had his son, Greg, ship two large foot lockers of documents to Douglas with the caveat that they were not to be opened until after Crowley 's death. These documents, totaled an astonishing 15,000 pages of CIA classified files involving many covert operations, both foreign and domestic, during the Cold War.

While CIA drug running, money-launderings and brutal assassinations are very often strongly rumored and suspected, it has so far not been possible to actually pin them down but it is more than possible that the publication of the transcribed and detailed Crowley-Douglas conversations will do a great deal towards accomplishing this.

These many transcribed conversations are relatively short because Crowley was a man who tired easily but they make excellent reading. There is an interesting admixture of shocking revelations on the part of the retired CIA official and often rampant anti-social (and very entertaining) activities on the part of Douglas but readers of this new and on-going series are gently reminded to always look for the truth in the jest!

END OF BACKGROUND

Conversations with 'the Crow' - Part 14

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS (GD): I am a man of sorrows and acquainted with rage, Robert. How about the Company setting off a small A-bomb in some hitherto harmless country and blaming it on mice.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY (RTC): Now that's something we never did. In fact, we prevented at least one nuclear disaster.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Now, now, Gregory, sometimes we can discuss serious business. There were times when we prevented terrible catastrophes and tried to secure more peace. We had trouble, you know, with India back in the 60s when they got uppity and started work on an atomic bomb. Loud mouthed cow-lovers bragging about how clever they were and how they, too, were going to be a great power in the world. The thing is, they were getting into bed with the Russians. Of course, Pakistan was in bed with the chinks so India had to find another bed partner. And we did not want them to have any kind of nuclear weaponry because God knows what they would have done with it. Probably strut their stuff like a Washington nigger with a brass watch. Probably nuke the Pakis. They're all a bunch of neo-coons anyway. Oh yes, and their head expert was fully capable of building a bomb and we knew just what he was up to. He was warned several times but what an arrogant prick that one was. Told our people to ****** off and then made it clear that no one would stop him and India from getting nuclear parity with the big boys. Loud mouths bring it all down on themselves. Do you know about any of this?

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Not my area of interest or expertise. Who is this joker, anyway?

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Was, Gregory, let's use the past tense if you please. Name was Homi Bhabha. That one was dangerous, believe me. He had an unfortunate accident. He was flying to Vienna to stir up more trouble when his BOEING 707 had a bomb go off in the cargo hold and they all came down on a high mountain way up in the Alps . No real evidence and the world was much safer.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Was Bhabha alone on the plane?

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: No it was a commercial Air India flight.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: How many people went down with him?

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Ah, who knows and frankly, who cares?

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: I suppose if I had a relative on the flight I would care.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Did you?

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: No.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Then don't worry about it. We could have blown it up over Vienna but we decided the high mountains were much better for the bits and pieces to come down on. I think a possible death or two among mountain goats is much preferable than bringing down a huge plane right over a big city.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: I think that there were more than goats, Robert.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Well, aren't we being a bleeding-heart today.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Now, now, it's not an observation that is unexpected. Why not send him a box of poisoned candy? Shoot him in the street? Blow up his car? I mean, why ace a whole plane full of people?

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Well, I call it as it see it. At the time, it was our best shot. And we nailed Shastri as well. Another cow-loving rag head. Gregory, you say you don't know about these people. Believe me, they were close to getting a bomb and so what if they nuked their deadly Paki enemies? So what? Too many people in both countries. Breed like rabbits and full of snake-worshipping twits. I don't for the life of me see what the Brits wanted in India . And then threaten us? They were in the sack with the Russians, I told you. Maybe they could nuke the Panama Canal or Los Angeles . We don't know that for sure but it is not impossible.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Who was Shastri?

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: A political type who started the program in the first place. Bhabha was a genius and he could get things done so we aced both of them. And we let certain people there know that there was more where that came from. We should have hit the chinks too, while we were at it but they were a tougher target. Did I tell you about the idea to wipe out Asia 's rice crops? We developed a disease that would have wiped rice off the map there and it's their staple diet. The ****** rice growers here got wind of it and raised such a stink we canned the whole thing. The theory was that the disease could spread around and hurt their pocketbooks. If the Mao people invade Alaska , we can tell the rice people it's all their fault.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: I suppose we might make friends with them.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: With the likes of them? Not at all, Gregory. The only thing the Communists understand is brute force. India was quieter after Bhabha croaked.We could never get to Mao but at one time, the Russians and we were discussing the how and when of the project. Oh yes, sometimes we do business with the other side. Probably more than you realize.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Now that I know about. High level amorality. They want secrets from us and you give them some of them in return for some of their secrets, doctored of course. That way, both agencies get credit for being clever.

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Well, you've been in that game so why be so holy over a bunch of dead ragheads?

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Were all the passengers Indian atomic scientists?

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Who cares, Gregory? We got the main man and that was all that mattered. You ought not criticize when you don't have the whole story.

JOURNALIST GREGORY DOUGLAS: Well, there were too many mountain goats running around, anyway. Then might have gotten their hands on some weapons from Atwood and invaded Switzerland .

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: You jest but there is truth in what you say. We had such a weight on us, protecting the American people, often from themselves I admit. Many of these stories can never be written, Gregory. And if you try, you had better get your wife to start your car in the morning. # # #

^^^I don't know about that source, but will look it up when I have the chance. What is known is the US and Soviets were from the late 1940s through 1970s involved in all sorts of really nasty activities to destabilize governments.

...Also, for what it's worth, retired CIA officer Robert Crowley claimed that the CIA killed both Shastri and Bhabha.

To be clear, Robert Crowley NEVER claimed .. or even anything close to claiming --- this!

The closest this CT comes is some news paper publishes (in 2008 - MORE THAN 40 years later) "a transcript" of a telephone conversation between a "Gregory Douglas" and Robert Crowley where Douglas claims that Crowley said such and such... (IOW NO tapes, NO documents even remotely collaborating the fact that Crowley (or anyone else in CIA or any other reputable guy - there is ZERO evidence that the "transcript" is real ) said this..

I remember 1966.. that Wednesday of the plane crash pretty well. I was with some TIFR guys and this was a very sad news. (I happen to have met Bhabha and knew him ).. only strange theory around that time was, some said, he travelled on a Wednesday which according to his mother was an unlucky day and some suggested him not to fly that day. Of course this was absurd as Bhabha did not believe in such things... The CIA CT is, in my opinion even more absurd. (I have known many of colleagues of Bhabha over the years and can tell you that NONE of the people I know ever talked about conspiracy..)

BTW Bhabha had very good relationship and reputation with US scientists in those days. (There were many Indian physicists and Bhabha's students in US in those days). Bhabha had very good relationship with Nehru and thus there was good cooperation between US and India .. (All that changed in 1968 and became even worse post 1971 for obvious reasons..)

The untimely death of Bhabha had another effect. GOI and US were thinking of making IIT Kanpur a top rated school for nuclear physics and talks were going on between top US institutes and GOI for this. Unfortunately after Bhabha's death the initiative died. (Recently I saw a book (Fourth IIT) where more details about this is given)

...only strange theory around that time was, some said, he travelled on a Wednesday which according to his mother was an unlucky day and some suggested him not to fly that day. Of course this was absurd as Bhabha did not believe in such things...

Given the fact that CIA penetrated the Kerala police to bring down the career of brilliant ISRO engineers and given the fact that CIA was involved in regime change all across the world and given the very fact that Patrice Lumumba was murdered by CIA and its belgian cronies just 3 days before Kennedy's inauguration and further CIA was involved in covert wars in Laos (even before vietnam) and its various involvements in covert assassinations all over the world to meet ostensible political goals of US until Ford signed the declaration in 1976 clearly indicates that CIA may be a great suspect in Bhabha's assassination.

To rule that theory out as outlandish is just plain outlandish.

And while you are about IIT AmberG., why do not you let us know who set up IIT? And also the "famine scare" of 1960s which was to ensure that US exports its surplus wheat to India and also the US funded female infanticide from AIIMS?

Or you can probably explain Madam Halfbrights stated goal of Cap, Rollback and Eliminate India's nuclear program or Convicted Fmr. Assistant Secy of State Robin Raphael's statement of not recognizing cashmeres ascension to India.

Bhabha having good reputation with US scientists is totally orthogonal to US's political goals.

---

AmberG., I do not think you are so naive that given the history of CIA you will call speculation of its involvement outlandish but actually bring in outlandish and unsubstantiated astrological theory!

In spite of this, the US never totally abandoned the strategy, simply changing the terminology from assassination to targeted killings, from aerial bombing of presidents to drone attacks on alleged terrorist leaders. Aerial bomb attempts on leaders included Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi in 1986, Serbia’s Slobodan Milosevic in 1999 and Iraqi president Saddam Hussein in 2003.

Earlier well-documented episodes include Congo’s first prime minister, Patrice Lumumba of Congo, judged by the US to be too close to close to Russia. In 1960, the CIA sent a scientist to kill him with a lethal virus, though this became unnecessary when he was removed from office in 1960 by other means. Other leaders targeted for assassination in the 1960s included the Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo, president Sukarno of Indonesia and president Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam.

In 1973, the CIA helped organise the overthrow of Chile’s president, Salvador Allende, deemed to be too left wing: he died on the day of the coup.

The peak of outrage against government-sponsored assassination was the mid-1970s, when the Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations — better known as the Church committee — spent more than 60 days questioning 75 witnesses about C.I.A. plots of the late 1950s and early 1960s. Back in the darkest days of the cold war, the agency had devoted significant resources and creativity to devising unhappy ends for unsavory or inconvenient foreign leaders. Among those listed for assassination were Patrice Lumumba of the Congo, Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic and, most famously, Fidel Castro of Cuba, who survived no fewer than eight C.I.A. assassination plots. ...

At the C.I.A., where many top officials were highly cultivated products of elite boarding schools and Ivy League colleges, assassination may have been in vogue at the time, but it was not a subject for polite discussion. When one C.I.A. official turned in a memo urging the “elimination” not just of Fidel Castro, but of Raul Castro and Che Guevara, too — a sort of assassination triple play — Allen Dulles, the agency’s director, did not balk. But he did cross out “elimination” and pencil in a softer word: “removal.”

Such squeamishness seems almost quaint by today’s standards. “Targeted killing” is the latest euphemism for assassination. Employed with some regularity since the 1980s, targeted killing has been an especially valued tool of the C.I.A. and Pentagon since 9/11. Several executive orders prohibiting government-sponsored assassination were issued in the aftermath of the Church committee, including one signed by Ronald Reagan in 1981. Reagan himself challenged the order in 1986, when he approved an air attack on Libya — and the implicit attempt on the life of Colonel Qaddafi — as retribution for the bombing of a Berlin discotheque.

It is definitely churlish to call the speculation that Dr. Bhabha and Late PM Shastriji were in the cross hairs of CIA and marked for "removal" as outlandish.

In fact as recently as 2012., american dog Karan Thapar called for "sudden removal" of Modiji and Modi ji himself alluded as recently as 2015 & 2016 that he may be targeted in his speeches publicly.

Please do not be churlish AmberG.

Added later:

I think AmberG., you need to take back your outlandish comment (and with due apologies)., otherwise you need to prove each point in the article below as outlandish.

disha wrote:And while you are about IIT AmberG., why do not you let us know who set up IIT? And also the "famine scare" of 1960s which was to ensure that US exports its surplus wheat to India and also the US funded female infanticide from AIIMS?

CIA involvement in Shastri and/or Bhabha's death(s) does not sound too outlandish given the prevailing mood in the US at that time (we all know the crazed utterings of Nixon and Kissinger which was not an aberration but perhaps a bit more extreme). The US of 60s-70s was extremely arrogant and hostile toward India and I am seeing them headed in the same direction in this and the coming decade. All talks of a "Hyperpower" gives one a sen se of deja vu. Only this time, India is very well prepared and there's a huge diaspora which I doubt will go without a fight

Disclaimer: For those who say I am totally wrong - I could be, but it is not for want of interaction with the American public (lived and worked here for the last 25 years).

That is a good record of the wheat "export" by US - ipso-facto. And are you expressing shock as in cynicism and indicating that I am indulging in CT when I am pointing out that CIA was involved in regime change or assassination? You need to be clear.

Polio & CIA are not related in India. And CONgoons are more famous for vasectomies., but that is a discussion for other thread. How the US created a wheat crises needs to be studied in another thread. The reason is simple., India's staple along with rice, wheat were millets like bajri, jowar etc. But the focus was purposely on wheat. In retrospect., was a wheat crises engineered so that America can influence India's foreign policy? As stated., that is a topic for a separate thread.

---

My point is clear., CIA was actively involved in assassination of influential figures across the globe in pursuit of the then american foreign policy and it is not outlandish to suspect them for the untimely deaths of Dr. Bhabha and late PM Shri Shastriji.

disha wrote:That is a good record of the wheat "export" by US - ipso-facto. And are you expressing shock as in cynicism and indicating that I am indulging in CT when I am pointing out that CIA was involved in regime change or assassination? You need to be clear.

Your claim that the US manufactured a famine scare is clearly nonsense. Clearly making fun of you.

My point is clear., CIA was actively involved in assassination of influential figures across the globe in pursuit of the then american foreign policy and it is not outlandish to suspect them for the untimely deaths of Dr. Bhabha and late PM Shri Shastriji.

It isn't just outlandish, it's garbage. Much of the information about attempts on Castro come from USG sources.

Decades earlier in 1975, the US Senate Church Commission revealed details of at least eight plots on Castro's life, using devices which, the commission report said, "strain the imagination".