You my friend, are now delving into the depths of matters that drove Socrates up the wall.

Are truths and beliefs just semantics..interchangeable?..I dont know.

I think so.

I also think all absolute statements have to come with assumptions based on existing beliefs... so therefore yes... everything is relative.

The sharpest I can define Truth for myself is: " what is".
But then the underlying assumption is " according to me".

So are you a physicist?

No, I just had the idea that the off-topic lounge would be a great environment for a deep discussion. Anyway, does the statement "everything is relative" account for gravity? If a person doesn't believe in gravity, does that person float away?

..seriously, he wont float away but if he is moves faster than 57.7 percent of the speed of light, he will gravitationally repel other masses lying within a narrow 'antigravity beam' in front of him. A magnetic field can attract/and repel.

Does that count? ; )

Take death. Thats as finite a truth as there can be.

And then look at all the world's belief systems surrounding it ...resurrection, reincarnation, living sprits, ghosts, energy fields.. etc etc etc..

That's right, so how can all of the worldviews be true at the same time?

They can't. All the world views have different beliefs (about how the world came to be, about gods, etc) but in reality, there's only one truth. We don't know that one truth, but it's there. That's why religion relies on faith...

Well, probability wise, I'm not 100% sure it's there, but there can't logically be NO definite truth. I mean, it seems pretty obvious that there's one definite truth, yet no one knows it. People think they know it (hence religion), but again, it's a belief.

I define truth as, simply, something that is not wrong. Different mind views can have different truths. For example, an athiest will say that the truth is that there is no God but a christian will say the truth is that there is. There are some objective truths we can know, such as math. In math there is no sort of there is only wrong and right. Math is a truth that is known worldwide, 2 plus 2 equals 4 everywhere. In the minds throughout the world there are different "truths" but in reality there is only one truth. However this leaves out the subject of ethics. Such as is it a truth that the murderer deserved to get five years in prison? In this realm truth is subjective between people, country, religon. But as I said earlier there is only one truth. I believe that the only real truth are those which are stated in The Bible. Most truths are man-made so these are objective to us but subjective to other species including God. We would need an outside force to assign us a definitive, objective truth and I hold that thing to be the God of the Holy Bible.

__________________
Praise him on the loud cymbals: praise him on the high sounding cymbals. Psalms 150:5

Truth mitigates falsehood because it opens eyes. Falsehood rules because it is comfortable and conforms to the reinforcement of institutions that need to perpetuate falsehood to survive. Who has a monopoly on Truth? Many people still believe mainstream news or "official reports" are Truth, but these agencies routinely have to reinforce their stories, histories and assertions, in order to attain the status and retain power.

Thomas Jefferson, Mahatma Gahdhi and even people still alive today, such as Ron Paul, often cited truths that got them in trouble, people painted them "crazy" and were superseded by politicians and leaders who favored authoritarianism and institutions of "truths" by force.

Truth needs no propaganda, advertising or any defence whatsoever. It is self-evident and always mitigates falsehood, when people stop listening to "truths by force".

Do you feel that there exists "Truth"? If so, it must, logically, be a universal concept. Or, at the very least, conceptually consistent with something not one being in the universe would disagree with.

This puts Truth in a vary rare category of perhaps only being comprised of one thing.

Some people call it "God", others "Allah", yet more "The Dharma" or even "The Almighty Tao", but those concepts speak to every human on Earth, even if they claim to be atheists. The most horrendous of mass murderers; Stalin, Hitler, Mao... etc, still have to agree with the basic premises of those pillars of philosophy. Contentment depends on the desire to continue on the next day, and do better than the last. What drives people to do better or even to keep going, is Truth. Some of the aforementioned religions have failed to reach what exactly that is, because it too, has to keep going and maintain it's status, just like governments have to.

Truth, in it's pure reality, would not tolerate religion, or science, or any other conceptual idea of one race of create in this universe. A man trying to define exactly what Truth is, could not be a more impossible task.

All we can do, is conceptualize what Truth does, what it represents and the fact that is must exist. Perhaps it's not necessary to define it in some linguistic permutation, but it is important to understand that from the tiniest of atomic constituents, to the universe as a whole, there is something that binds it together in perfect harmony, so that it can exist at all.

Do you feel that there exists "Truth"? If so, it must, logically, be a universal concept. Or, at the very least, conceptually consistent with something not one being in the universe would disagree with.

This puts Truth in a vary rare category of perhaps only being comprised of one thing.

Some people call it "God", others "Allah", yet more "The Dharma" or even "The Almighty Tao", but those concepts speak to every human on Earth, even if they claim to be atheists. The most horrendous of mass murderers; Stalin, Hitler, Mao... etc, still have to agree with the basic premises of those pillars of philosophy. Contentment depends on the desire to continue on the next day, and do better than the last. What drives people to do better or even to keep going, is Truth. Some of the aforementioned religions have failed to reach what exactly that is, because it too, has to keep going and maintain it's status, just like governments have to.

Truth, in it's pure reality, would not tolerate religion, or science, or any other conceptual idea of one race of create in this universe. A man trying to define exactly what Truth is, could not be a more impossible task.

All we can do, is conceptualize what Truth does, what it represents and the fact that is must exist. Perhaps it's not necessary to define it in some linguistic permutation, but it is important to understand that from the tiniest of atomic constituents, to the universe as a whole, there is something that binds it together in perfect harmony, so that it can exist at all.

...

So you are admitting truth is just a concept? Albiet a universal one? And all the people of this earth believe there to be a universal truth, albeit differently?

What if everyone is wrong? Concepts even universal ones don't have to be real. They are based on hypothesis.

Sorry not trying to be cheeky here, but...it's quite possible for very large masses of people to collectively live in false or alternate realities. ( remember the Jonestown mass suicides of 1978 ?..).

Did you know that until quite recently the 'San' tribesmen of the Kalahari desert ( Bushmen ), when arrested by the South African authorities for poaching ( they thought they were buying dinner.. ), and put into a prison cell as punishment for the offense, simply died?

That was their truth.

They had not concept of time standing still, or the reality of a day in the near future when they might be free again. Their metabolic systems just shut down, and they died! I think the authorities revised the law for the tribesmen after these incidents.

If truth then equals reality , is it therefore then an interpretation of concepts, principles, beliefs, values, empirical evidence? An interpretations of different realities?

If so then how can there be one truth?

Your opening assumption that truth is by definition is singular ( as in there can be only one truth ) is just that. An assumption.

What if the only truth is that there is no truth?

Much as we, and I include the collective human race ( who, come to think of it, actually haven't been around long enough to be credible representatives of our planet, let alone the cosmos..) wish it otherwise.

So is it an aspiration? Is there a fundamental innate need for the human mind to derive a comforting sense understanding for something to be true?
The first thunderclap ever heard by a prehistoric human ear was probably the most definitive reason many of us today believe in our Lord, who art in heaven.

Hey, dont get me wrong I'm just a big ol'doofuss drummer here, with no great or deep understanding of all these things, but what I really question is Human Arrogance.

That he is indeed the master of the universe and everything operates by his rules and understanding. That all things can or need to be explained within the framework of his existing and ever-changing bank of knowledge and should fit into his neat little boxes of reason and understanding. And anything that doesn't,........ doesnt exist.

My extremely uneducated guess is that we are such a tiny fragment of a humungous massive whole, we can hardly afford to be so cock sure.

When I was a kid, maybe 4, or 5 my uncle took me camping in the mountains. For the first time ever , I saw the night sky of the open wilderness, and the explosion of stars and glittering galaxies almost blinded me with wide eyed wonder.

I remember asking myself the question " who the *%$# am I and what the *&%# am I doing here".
I still ponder the same question 40 years later... and still dont have a &*%# freaking clue...

I define truth as, simply, something that is not wrong. Different mind views can have different truths. For example, an athiest will say that the truth is that there is no God but a christian will say the truth is that there is. There are some objective truths we can know, such as math.

When you say that both Atheists and Theists have different truths, you are wrong. Theists have beliefs, which they believe to be true, and Atheists have no belief, or lack of belief. But that in itself, they believe. They don't believe that there's no God--they simply took a notion of what Theists believe, and said "nope. I don't buy it," based on many things, being: lack of evidence and contradictions of science--math, as you put it.

When you say that both Atheists and Theists have different truths, you are wrong. Theists have beliefs, which they believe to be true, and Atheists have no belief, or lack of belief. But that in itself, they believe. They don't believe that there's no God--they simply took a notion of what Theists believe, and said "nope. I don't buy it," based on many things, being: lack of evidence and contradictions of science--math, as you put it.

Well I believe truth, subjective truth, is the truth that any individual believes to be true. But like I said there is still only one difinitive truth.

__________________
Praise him on the loud cymbals: praise him on the high sounding cymbals. Psalms 150:5

I define truth as, simply, something that is not wrong. Different mind views can have different truths. For example, an athiest will say that the truth is that there is no God but a christian will say the truth is that there is. There are some objective truths we can know, such as math. In math there is no sort of there is only wrong and right. Math is a truth that is known worldwide, 2 plus 2 equals 4 everywhere. In the minds throughout the world there are different "truths" but in reality there is only one truth. However this leaves out the subject of ethics. Such as is it a truth that the murderer deserved to get five years in prison? In this realm truth is subjective between people, country, religon. But as I said earlier there is only one truth. I believe that the only real truth are those which are stated in The Bible. Most truths are man-made so these are objective to us but subjective to other species including God. We would need an outside force to assign us a definitive, objective truth and I hold that thing to be the God of the Holy Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwildman

Well I believe truth, subjective truth, is the truth that any individual believes to be true. But like I said there is still only one difinitive truth.

I agree, there is only one definitive truth. But the "individual truths" are really just beliefs. And, by definition, a belief is what you believe to be true.

I define truth as, simply, something that is not wrong. Different mind views can have different truths. For example, an athiest will say that the truth is that there is no God but a christian will say the truth is that there is. There are some objective truths we can know, such as math. In math there is no sort of there is only wrong and right. Math is a truth that is known worldwide, 2 plus 2 equals 4 everywhere. In the minds throughout the world there are different "truths" but in reality there is only one truth. However this leaves out the subject of ethics. Such as is it a truth that the murderer deserved to get five years in prison? In this realm truth is subjective between people, country, religon. But as I said earlier there is only one truth. I believe that the only real truth are those which are stated in The Bible. Most truths are man-made so these are objective to us but subjective to other species including God. We would need an outside force to assign us a definitive, objective truth and I hold that thing to be the God of the Holy Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebirdgdw

Yes but I'm sure that Gruntersdad prefers his new one which = truth (to him). It's all subjective, although this has already been covered here.

This is one of the deeeeeeepest conversations I've ever heard. my head hurts :\