greentara wrote:'Many still believe that Chogyam Trungpa and Osel Tendzin were spiritual masters, and use all sorts of mystical rationalizations to defend their adoration. Their blind faith demonstrates one of the dangers of religion: the dissolution of the ego can, if accompanied by the dissolution of the critical intellect, can result in abject subjugation to another person’s ego, an ego that may have a hidden and unpalatable agenda'Simon E and others if you adore and believe in Trungpa well and good, if you feel you benefit ok... but don't trot out all this passive/aggressive stuff and spare me the clinician speak!nuff said!

I can assure you greentara that I have no intention of altering my responses to enable you to continue to ignore the contradictions inherent in your opinions...If you doubt the fact that many current teachers with the highest reputations see CTR in a favourable light then go to the Chronicles Of Chogyam Trungpa site where you will find glowing endorsements by , among others, Pema Chodren, Lama Shenpen, Rigdzen Shikpo, Thrangu Rinpoche, ( tutor to the 17th Kamarpa ) Khenpo Tsultrim, Dzongskar Khyense Rinpoche et al.So how do you explain this ? Are they all mistaken ? Are they all in thrall to CTR's charisma ? Do you know better than these teachers ? Or what ??

I was really enjoying this thread just becoming a place where people share stories, anecdotes, and quotes from the life of CTR instead of their judgements. If Greentara had a coherent opinion that actually made me think twice, I'd be more worried about proving her wrong.

By any definition, though, Greentara, your out of context quotes did amount to a classically passive/aggressive was of getting your opinions out there. In the future, feel free to just say what you mean and please, for the love of simplicity, make sure you mean what you say.

Nilasarasvati wrote::toilet: I was really enjoying this thread just becoming a place where people share stories, anecdotes, and quotes from the life of CTR instead of their judgements. If Greentara had a coherent opinion that actually made me think twice, I'd be more worried about proving her wrong.

By any definition, though, Greentara, your out of context quotes did amount to a classically passive/aggressive was of getting your opinions out there. In the future, feel free to just say what you mean and please, for the love of simplicity, make sure you mean what you say.

Their blind faith demonstrates one of the dangers of religion: the dissolution of the ego can, if accompanied by the dissolution of the critical intellect, can result in abject subjugation to another person’s ego, an ego that may have a hidden and unpalatable agenda'.

True. The potential for the traditional and legitimate teachings on guru-yoga to be abused and become cultish is great. Caveat emptor--in spades!

The guru-yoga teachings are designed for the ideal scenario where the teacher is fully enlightened. The fact that there can be ANY expectation of such a scenario is absolutely astounding to me. Evidently it is EXPECTED to happen on some sort of regular basis. But as we all know, in practice that scenario is actually very rare. So for most of us we must engage in a type of double-think. 99.99% of our teachers will NOT be fully enlightened, so how to see them as such?

My suggestion, and I support this with zero authoritative reference, is to see the teacher as a mixture of enlightened and unenlightened. So far so good. As long as they have lineage and the authority to teach, that's a reasonably safe bet. But enlightenment has an absolute quality to it, kinda like being "a little bit pregnant". So if we have a teacher with meager realization, that's still the realization of a Buddha, only it is covered in dross. So in the guru-yoga of seeing everything the teacher does as pure, we might choose to mentally distill out the dross and affirm the essential. It helps a lot to do this if you have confidence in the lineage. You can see see the person as being flawed, but the teachings as being perfect, thus overcoming your own samsaric mind's limitation of finding fault in everything--which is the point. And of course it is excellent training for when you do finally find a teacher that is fully enlightened. That makes thugs a lot easier.

I say all this with great hesitation. I'm not a Dharma teacher. What I've said is based on my own ignorance, and therefore a corruption of Dharma. Anybody that sees value in it should run it by their own lama for verification.

I very much agree SMJC, that the main thing is that we have to do work on our own side to see the guru purely. I also think people just want to relax and forget that it is not only a caveat emptor situation it remains that way every single minute. I hardly think that Trungpa was down playing that key aspect to the guru-disciple "situation" either. (I put the word "situation" in quotes because that word and the way Trungpa used it was such a great Trungpa trope, not my own)

Not only that, but the danger the guru presents seems key to enhancing a certain level of emptiness and not letting the disciple grasp at a saftey net and to stay on their toes instead. I think that take is probably directly from Trungpa. I know I have seen teachings galore on this point and it has helped me come to terms with my very difficult teacher/sangha "situation." Maybe even more importantly, the ultimate guru is within and that that is what we are supposed to be engaging with primarily, not with a hero or parental figure or Santa Claus in the external world who has this flawless reliable money back guarentee stamp on it.

I never met Trungpa and never even heard of him until he'd long been dead but among the many things it seems to me that Trungpa was trying to teach us via his behavior was simply: Don't rely on me, Trungpa the person, instead develop your insight into the sitations as they come and go in and around and through our relationship as catalyzed by guru-disciple. I am thinking about John Perks account which I recently read. Trungpa put John Perks through the grinder, and seemed in a certain way to have dumped John Perks towards the end of Perks' life, but in the end Trungpa said to Perks, "You and I are the same. Start your own lineage."

My own current probably delusional framework says it is not that the guru is only half enlightened, it is that his importance is just him being there at all. He is a sign as well as a catalyst of something that goes beyond me over here seeking teachings from an enlightened man out there. There is a whole non-dual ungraspable phenomena going on all around and within you when you approach the guru. Its hard work to achieve insight to glean teaching and realizations from the situations as they transpire and develop, be it from a half-enlghtened or a fully enlightned guru. It is up to us to recognize the qualities of what is being conveyed beyond just the sematics of what a teacher is saying, beyond just concepts and understanding, beyond some kind of good example a guru may or may not provide, and if we are doing our practice our insight will be deep enough to have a good shot at being succesful even if we cannot have a good, or meaningful relationship to our teacher in the conventional sense perhaps due to our own "faults" or the teacher's "faults"or both. I put the faults in quotes because I don't think that's accurate to say they are faults always.

I love Trungpa's pauses he makes. He knows how to cut the words and isn't afraid to just leave things hanging in mid discourse. For me that just puts me into a deep mediattive state everytime I listen to his talks which by the way are available in bails here: http://www.chronicleproject.com/CTRlibr ... brary.html

Also, I was wondering if there was any news about the 12th Trungpa lately. I can't find anything on internet that is less than 4 years old. CHeers!http://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=quote&f=50&p=172637#

Maybe even more importantly, the ultimate guru is within and that that is what we are supposed to be engaging with primarily, not with a hero or parental figure or Santa Claus in the external world who has this flawless reliable money back guarantee stamp on it.

I never met Trungpa and never even heard of him until he'd long been dead but among the many things it seems to me that Trungpa was trying to teach us via his behavior was simply: Don't rely on me, Trungpa the person, instead develop your insight into the sitations as they come and go in and around and through our relationship as catalyzed by guru-disciple. I am thinking about John Perks account which I recently read. Trungpa put John Perks through the grinder, and seemed in a certain way to have dumped John Perks towards the end of Perks' life, but in the end Trungpa said to Perks, "You and I are the same. Start your own lineage."

I still don't understand how people can read the stories of Tilopa, Marpa, Milarepa, Drukpa Kunleg, Padampa Sangye and even Machig Labrom and still expect that ALL spiritual teachers must be very staid, predictable, nice soft smiley holy men (like HH Dalai Lama or HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche)...I mean, my opinion is---to each their own. I would be terrified of a teacher like Trungpa Rinpoche--but maybe he's exactly what I need.

This is a general warning to all: no more ad hominem replies, or this thread will be locked. You may disagree with someone's conduct, agenda, etc. and if they break the TOS then you can report their post. But don't resort to ad homs or bickering.

Please be reminded of catmoon's quote re: Enlightened Discussion that is now an addendum to our TOS:

In an enlightened discussion, it is never acceptable to comment on your discussion partner in anything other than glowing, admiring terms, no matter what he says, whether or not he insults you, belittles you, swears at you, curses your lineage and guru, or consigns you and all your progeny for seventy generations to the lowest tiers of the nastiest hells. It's just not allowed in civil conversation.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

I watched "When the Iron Bird Flies" the other day, and I was impressed by Tsultrim Allione's presence. I started to read about her, and, what do you know, turns out she's a Trungpaite too! I'm not sure if he was her very first lama, but based on her bio: http://taramandala.org/about/lama-tsultrim/, and her preface to "Women of Wisdom", it seems that he was. Truly, the man's influence on western Buddhism is incalculable.

Here's an excerpt from the book:

After a year I managed to get to a Tibetan meditation center calledSamye Ling in Scotland. The day I arrived I heard that the abbot ofthe place, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, was to return from thehospital where he had been recovering from a car accident. I hadimagined he would be a wise-looking old man, so when I saw himI was shocked to see a youthful, handsome Tibetan, who was stillbadly paralyzed from his accident.

I did not have any contact with Trungpa Rinpoche for severalmonths, because he was still too weak to receive people and he wassurrounded by a group of very possessive disciples. When I finallydid meet him, it was quite funny and wonderful.

I was scheduled for an official "interview," which was somethingI had never experienced before. I told the people organizing the interviewsthat I had no idea what to say to him, but they assured methat I need not worry, for he would start the conversation. So I wentinto the room and sat timidly on the floor in front of his chair andlooked at him. He did not say anything; nor did I. We stayed likethat for about forty-five minutes.

Now I realize that what happened was some kind of mind-to-mind transmission, but at the time I only knew that I had experiencedsomething that was completely beyond words and form. Itreminded me of some of the experiences I had had sitting near thestupa at Swayambhu. It was an experience of space that extendedoutward without any reference back. This space was luminous andbliss-provoking, a release, similar to, but beyond, sexual orgasm.When I emerged everyone was eager to know what he had said andI had to respond, "Nothing!"

dzogchungpa wrote:I watched "When the Iron Bird Flies" the other day, and I was impressed by Tsultrim Allione's presence. I started to read about her, and, what do you know, turns out she's a Trungpaite too! I'm not sure if he was her very first lama, but based on her bio: http://taramandala.org/about/lama-tsultrim/, and her preface to "Women of Wisdom", it seems that he was. Truly, the man's influence on western Buddhism is incalculable.

Here's an excerpt from the book:

After a year I managed to get to a Tibetan meditation center calledSamye Ling in Scotland. The day I arrived I heard that the abbot ofthe place, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, was to return from thehospital where he had been recovering from a car accident. I hadimagined he would be a wise-looking old man, so when I saw himI was shocked to see a youthful, handsome Tibetan, who was stillbadly paralyzed from his accident.

I did not have any contact with Trungpa Rinpoche for severalmonths, because he was still too weak to receive people and he wassurrounded by a group of very possessive disciples. When I finallydid meet him, it was quite funny and wonderful.

I was scheduled for an official "interview," which was somethingI had never experienced before. I told the people organizing the interviewsthat I had no idea what to say to him, but they assured methat I need not worry, for he would start the conversation. So I wentinto the room and sat timidly on the floor in front of his chair andlooked at him. He did not say anything; nor did I. We stayed likethat for about forty-five minutes.

Now I realize that what happened was some kind of mind-to-mind transmission, but at the time I only knew that I had experiencedsomething that was completely beyond words and form. Itreminded me of some of the experiences I had had sitting near thestupa at Swayambhu. It was an experience of space that extendedoutward without any reference back. This space was luminous andbliss-provoking, a release, similar to, but beyond, sexual orgasm.When I emerged everyone was eager to know what he had said andI had to respond, "Nothing!"

Amazing

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Maybe even more importantly, the ultimate guru is within and that that is what we are supposed to be engaging with primarily, not with a hero or parental figure or Santa Claus in the external world who has this flawless reliable money back guarantee stamp on it.

I never met Trungpa and never even heard of him until he'd long been dead but among the many things it seems to me that Trungpa was trying to teach us via his behavior was simply: Don't rely on me, Trungpa the person, instead develop your insight into the sitations as they come and go in and around and through our relationship as catalyzed by guru-disciple. I am thinking about John Perks account which I recently read. Trungpa put John Perks through the grinder, and seemed in a certain way to have dumped John Perks towards the end of Perks' life, but in the end Trungpa said to Perks, "You and I are the same. Start your own lineage."

I still don't understand how people can read the stories of Tilopa, Marpa, Milarepa, Drukpa Kunleg, Padampa Sangye and even Machig Labrom and still expect that ALL spiritual teachers must be very staid, predictable, nice soft smiley holy men (like HH Dalai Lama or HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche)...I mean, my opinion is---to each their own. I would be terrified of a teacher like Trungpa Rinpoche--but maybe he's exactly what I need.

After reading Perks' book I think that I would love to have him work on me. He reminds me of really crazy, whacky and out of control scary friends you had when you were younger. Friends who were irresistable, who taught you a lot but got you into trouble with police or the school or what have you. Tilopa is the one who scares the hell out of me. Throwing Naropa off a cliff and so on. It seems that he was just completely unglued.

Shemmy: He reminds me of really crazy, whacky and out of control scary friends you had when you were younger. Friends who were irresistable, who taught you a lot but got you into trouble with police or the school or what have you.

An apt metaphor! A lot of us were "good kids." I have been playing the role of the straight A student, the "oldest son" and the "gifted child" since I was four. I had too few rabble rouser friends and now I live in the extremes of anxiety, selfconsciousness, and obsession with control. I need a Guru who pulls the rug out, probably.

Spring came to the Massachusetts hill country with rain, mud, and peeping frogs. On one of our walks by the farm pond Rinpoche noticed the frog spawn jelly in the water. I explained how we could put it into an aquarium and watch them change into tadpoles. He seemed excited about that and helped me set up the aquarium next to his bed so we could watch the transfor­mation every day. When Rinpoche awakened every morning we would peer into the aquarium and Rinpoche would exclaim, "Breaking out of the egg!" On the way to the bathroom he went, singing, "Breaking out, breaking out of the eggs."

Our bathroom routine was always the same. I would pre­-arrange the two kinds of soap, the shampoo, the towels, the toothpaste, toothbrushes, and the hairbrushes. I would follow Rinpoche into the bathroom and help him take off his kimono, which I hung on the door. Then he would peer into the mirror making faces and singing songs. This time it was the egg hatch­ing song. I looked at my own image in the mirror and then over to his. I started to panic as I realized his image was not in the mirror. For a second I stopped. Then, there it was, smiling and making faces. I was puzzled but I did not say anything, as I thought it was my faulty perception. As this began to happen more often, I felt that somehow he was playing a trick on me, so I paid extreme attention in the morning to the mirror antics. Nothing happened for several weeks, everything was quite normal, and I concluded that it had all been my hallucination. Then, when I was not expect­ing anything, he disappeared from the mirror again.

"How do you do that?" I asked him on the spot.He chuckled and said, "You just do it."

While he was in the shower I handed him the soap and con­tinued, "Is the trick with the mirror or my mind?""Both," he said, washing soap out of his hair. I was struck dumb. My reality was being stretched thin.

Shemmy: He reminds me of really crazy, whacky and out of control scary friends you had when you were younger. Friends who were irresistable, who taught you a lot but got you into trouble with police or the school or what have you.

An apt metaphor! A lot of us were "good kids." I have been playing the role of the straight A student, the "oldest son" and the "gifted child" since I was four. I had too few rabble rouser friends and now I live in the extremes of anxiety, selfconsciousness, and obsession with control. I need a Guru who pulls the rug out, probably.

Cheers!

Then again, most of us don't know what we need...hence the problem of relying too much on a teacher as he appears in the form of a person as opposed to the teacher as he/she appears on many more subtle levels...

That his manifestation appeared when it did, how it did, with the people that it did, and accomplished what it did, is still mysterious and not fully understood i think. The endless workings out of that are indeed, endless, ive come to understand. As all reality is endless.

We in "the west" want everything to be "understandable", lol, and that is understandable. But it is also arrogant. To think that we even could understand the vast workings of how things are is absurd. But science has taught us that (and i love science, btw), that everything can be "understood" given the proper conditions and experiments. But the best scientists will let you know right away, upfront, the limits of what can be known.

People can, and will, only give up their judgements when they can and do. Maybe thats why HHDL says, "my religion is kindness." I think he understands a few things.