nextyearsgirl: If teenage boys are “blameless” for acting on their natural hormones like wild animals, then we should lock them up until they either become domesticated or put them down. If you’re going to act like a rabid dog you get treated like a rabid dog.

50piecenuggets: How about we treat them like human beings BECAUSE THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS

This “rabid dog” analogy made me think of an excellent post over at the Pervocracy that I’d read a while back, on The Myth of the Boner Werewolf. Which is pretty much the most excellent name I’ve ever seen for the idea that men just can’t control themselves when they get aroused and it’s ridiculous to expect them to, so what happens next is the fault of whomever aroused them.

My response to my friend on fb, and my general response when that idea comes up, is wonder at why more men are not offended by that idea. Because it seems like it’s super prevalent. Like, no you can’t just ask a guy to stop in the middle of some sex something, that’s insane. Or, you can’t expect a guy to not take advantage of a defenseless girl when he sees an opportunity for sex. That’s just not how men are wired!

So I’d love to hear from guys on this. What are you reactions when you see narratives that include that idea on the news? How do you react when people treat this like common knowledge/ accepted wisdom/ something obvious in personal conversations or in groups of friends? General thoughts on the topic?

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16 thoughts on “Boner werewolves/ open thread”

I often come across the Boner Werewolf theory; I have since before my teens. Thus, my societal influences have been telling me for decades that if I’m in an arousing situation near the object of my lust, not only must I rape her, it wouldn’t really be my fault.

You know, a lot of people say that TV babysitters are a bad thing, but I’m very glad that I saw tons of “very special episodes” of shows and TV movies where I learned that rape was a bad thing at the same time that other shows, movies, magazines, and advertisements were saying that treating women like objects was cool.

I’ve been in numerous situations of close, practically intimate, proximity to women with whom I’ve wanted to have sex. I’ve never raped a one. I’ve always taken no to mean no, and in fact I’ve required pretty explicit consent. Especially if it’s a situation that cropped up suddenly, instead of in the progress of some sort of courting. And in situations where I wasn’t sure of mental faculties, like drunkenness or extreme tiredness, I’ve sadly put my boner away. In the last year, I’ve twice been in a situation where I’ve only given oral sex to a woman with her consent and then had her withhold consent for anything else and accepted that. Despite my libido’s wails for satisfaction, my brain was actually in charge.

And I am not special! I have no super powers. I’m a physically average person! So fuck you, boner werewolf theory.

When I hear or read that idea, it pisses me off. On a decent level, it angers me that men and women are perpetuating a crap idea that so obviously was imagined in order to excuse horrible behavior. It’s as if a kid said, “Well, you know I love sugar, so having candy in the house really means it’s your fault that I found it and ate it all.” It’s that level of rationalization and avoidance of responsibility.

But, frankly, on an ugly, shallow, and selfish level, I’m enraged because I want to have sex all the time! There is a monstrous part of me that wishes I could turn off knowing the difference between right and wrong, that could stop seeing women as human beings, and just fuck everyone in sight, secure in the knowledge that even the 21st century US judicial system would probably let me get away with it. I see proof of that leniency all the time. And then I feel ashamed. And of course, I don’t freaking do it, because I’m not a goddamned monster.

So, coming or going, whether I want to believe in the boner werewolf or accept that it’s obviously bullshit, that whole topic infuriates and shames me.

This whole issue of restraint versus “innate male animalistic urges” is really interesting from a historical perspective. It is cliche in many different cultures that men patronizingly tell women something like “you are clearly smarter, better, because you can restrain your urges and keep us crazy males in check!”

Going further, the traditional upper-class/honorable/genteel definition of masculinity emphasized that men needed to be restrained and controlled in how they approached women of their same social class, but gave them de facto permission to “release the boner werewolf” upon peasant and/or slave women. Then they would often turn around and muse about how much more “sensual” and “passionate” these women were than their wives.

I totally agree that I hear the “boner werewolf” trope a lot. I hear it more in mainstream media discourses than in my social life, because I try to surround myself with consent-aware sex-positive feminist folks. And yes, I find the concept really fucking insulting, as I am quite capable of controlling myself and respecting others boundaries. On reflection, though, I think there are a couple reasons why more men don’t get offended by this, and, indeed, even buy into it.

The first would be that yes, when one is turned on, it’s easy to get into the heat of the moment and not make smart decisions. This is especially true when you throw alcohol into the mix. I have always felt completely in control and quite able to not have sex if the other person didn’t affirmatively and enthusiastically want to. But I do feel a little bit this way about making out. Even I have been in monogamous relationships, I’ve always negotiated a making-out exception—because otherwise I would end up cheating. I LOVE making out. And I’m affectionate generally. So I don’t trust myself to not kiss people if I’m into them and they’re into me and especially if I have been drinking. So I guess on some level I get what this trope is getting at. And yet…and yet…not at all! Because I’ve never had a problem preventing myself from going any further! And moreover, this is all about my ability to respect relationship agreements—it’s not about my ability to respect boundaries. I’m pretty sure I’ve never kissed anyone non-consensually.

I think the real reason why so many men buy into the boner werewolf idea is because it provides them license to do what they want to do without caring about the consequences. And this social license to operate a central part of rape culture. It allows guys to escape having to be responsible for their actions. Boys will be boys, and all that. And fits right into the “consent for one thing is consent for all things” concept that underpins rape culture. And moreover, these animal instincts are held up as virile and strong and raw—all positive values associated with masculinity. Yes, the part where men aren’t in control is insulting. But it’s only insulting if you respect women’s autonomy. So if you don’t, well…yeah…

As I have said before in this blog, our society spends too much time teaching women not to get raped and very little time teaching men how to not rape. And so instead of teaching men that they need to seek consent and respect consent and exercise control and responsibility, we’re teaching them that they can just do what they want and get away with it. And I think we can all agree that that is bullshit.

I know a guy who got turned off feminism for good because of misuse (?) of this messaging. A campus feminist group put signs in the urinals saying “the power to stop rape is in your hands.” Which I thought was kind of cute and clever, but I guess it played into the Boner Werewolf theory a little bit too much.

I think it’s fascinating that we have created a culture with a pursuing gender socialized to not be in control of their actions AND a pursued gender socialized to be accomodating, so that no one has any actual agency.

As I’ve read in other places around the web, when labeling rapists as monsters who can’t help themselves it not only excuses the rapist’s behavior but it puts the victim as the one required to control themselves. Rapists are people who choose to violate other people sexually. They can help themselves, they can stop themselves, they choose not to. Now if there is some mental illness involved then there is of course a slight exception, but if that illness is identified then it’s on that person to control that illness via therapy, etc.

It wasn’t until recently that I accepted this. I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently about rape and about blaming the victim. I think I’m getting through to my friend, slowly but surely, that victims are never to blame for their rapes, that the rapists are. And one big thing that seems to help is to point out that rapists can and SHOULD be responsible for their actions.

I’ve written quite a few short responses to the boner-werewolf myth and how much it offends me and how counterproductive it is; I think I may write a full position piece on it from the male perspective. I’ve seen so many amazing women write so well about it and I’m so grateful for their example!

I know it’s not politically correct to say, but I do think guys find it hard to control themselves. Testosterone is a powerful mind altering chemical and I think it’s pretty irresponsible of many feminists to dismiss these issues completely.

Part of feminism is about asking males to aknowledge their power. Well the flip side of that for me is asking women to aknowledge their power too. So yes, sometimes women should take responsibility and not present themselves in a really sexual way if they don’t want to get sexual with someone. Frankly it really offends me when some feminists treat women like children who should be able to act however they like and not have any reaction to that at all.

This is not about political correctness. This is about recognizing that attitudes like those you are expressing, however well-intentioned, far from keeping women safe, actually help perpetuate and excuse rape.

Sure, testosterone does affect how people think. However, it is important to separate myth from reality. All people have both androgens (such as testosterone) and estrogens in their systems, though men have more testosterone and women have more estrogen. To my mind, some of the best data we have on the effect of testosterone comes from people who transition from one sex to the other. Transmen asked about the effects of testosterone hormone therapy “almost universally describe an increase in their sex drives (which become more receptive to visual inputs), male-type orgasms (more centralized, quicker to achieve), a decrease in their sense of smell, an increase in muscle mass, and more difficult crying and discerning their emotions.”[1] What doesn’t change is their ability to make decisions, control themselves, or discern right from wrong. So, yes, testosterone does have an effect on how the brain and body work and respond. And some men, especially younger ones, do have impulse control problems. No one is dismissing this. But testosterone far from the “powerful mind-altering chemical” you describe it as. Men still have responsibility for their own actions. Dismissing the decisions men make as the effect of a hormone does a disservice to everyone.

Feminists are not saying that women are “children who should be able to act however they like.” We are saying that all people should be able to present themselves how they want and act how they want and still maintain autonomy over their own bodies and their own choices. To say how women should “not present themselves in a really sexual way if they don’t want to get sexual with someone” is fundamentally paternalistic and victim-blaming. And it is that attitude that truly treats women like children.

At the end of the day, to paraphrase Jaclyn Friedman[2], it really does not matter what you wear, or how you act, or how much you drink, or how much sex you choose to have. None of these cause rape, or are even risk factors for rape. The main risk factor for rape is the presence of a rapist.

Yes, everyone should acknowledge their power and take responsibility for their own actions. But that does not mean blaming the victim as responsible for not causing men to “have reactions” while letting men off the hook because they are fueled by hormones.

I’d like to add on to Rosie and M. Lunas’s points to say that although evo psych looks like a neat answer to why men seem to do things one way and women seem to do things another way, it isn’t such a quick and easy explanation if you look more closely. There are a lot of human quirks* that can’t be explained by evo psych. Why are there trans people? Why are there gay people? Why are there infertile people, and intersex people, and people with no sex drive? Why are there fetishes? And why does every culture have a different idea of what’s sexy? We did start out, at the dawn of humanity, with lots of traits that helped us reproduce sexually, but many, many thousands of years of culture have changed and shaped what we think of as sexy, and how we behave sexually. We have, for as long as we’ve been self-aware, been trying to change our etiquette and our laws to reflect how complex our sexual behavior is.

Furthermore, even if you argue that men are strongly influenced by testosterone to the point of having no control over themselves (and I think most men AND most women disagree with you there), what do you think should happen? Shouldn’t we be helping men deal with their overwhelming testosterone-fueled desires to hurt people, instead of trying to punish the people they hurt?

It’s really cool that you’re exploring feminist thought and reading and engaging with feminist bloggers at 15. I was definitely, DEFINITELY not as far along in my journey to feminism at 15 as you are. I hope you keep reading, and keep your mind open to the things we’re saying.

My reaction is not so much that I’m offended, but confused. Maybe it’s that I’m an introvert. Maybe it’s that I’m a feminist. Maybe it’s just that I have respect for everyone’s personal boundaries. Maybe it’s that I understand that sex isn’t about conquest or power, but about personal connection and intimacy. But I am honestly confused at the idea that men can’t control themselves when sexually aroused. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Thus, the only conclusion to which I can arrive is that of conscious deception; That the people making this claim are covering for the people committing these crimes. That it is a blatant lie. And THAT does offend me.

To sum up, I think the “irresistible urge” explanation is ridiculous, and the fact that it is used to relieve criminals of the consequences of their crimes is offensive.