I recently happened upon the fact that a friend of mine (described in this thread) was baptized as a child and later made a public profession of faith. For the 10 - 15 years I've known him, he's claimed to be an atheist. As mentioned at the link, he will not discuss issues related to his life after death (which he claims to believe is nonexistent), and is polite but firm in fending off any talk about Jesus (even with me, and the two of us are the next thing to brothers).

My question is this: assuming that his baptism and witness were properly accomplished (this means I don't want to debate immersion vs sprinkling, et c.) , can he have lost his salvation by becoming unchurched and at least claiming to be an unbeliever?

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:I recently happened upon the fact that a friend of mine (described in this thread) was baptized as a child and later made a public profession of faith. For the 10 - 15 years I've known him, he's claimed to be an atheist. As mentioned at the link, he will not discuss issues related to his life after death (which he claims to believe is nonexistent), and is polite but firm in fending off any talk about Jesus (even with me, and the two of us are the next thing to brothers).

My question is this: assuming that his baptism and witness were properly accomplished (this means I don't want to debate immersion vs sprinkling, et c.) , can he have lost his salvation by becoming unchurched and at least claiming to be an unbeliever?

Once saved always saved. Period.The real question would be was his original conversion legit.Only God knows.

EDIT to add I just read the "this thread"....Sad to hear that he was abused by the church for being gayYes I believe it is a sin, but were all sinners. Love the sinner hate the sin.I will pray for your friend.

Originally Posted By Tonster:Once saved always saved. Period.The real question would be was his original conversion legit.Only God knows.

Funny, I was saved and Baptized when I was like 12 and at the time, as a brainwashed juvenile, I truely believed. Was that legit in spite of the fact that later in my life I learned the truth and became an atheist now does the fact that I was once saved am I always saved or does a God that does not exist only know?

I'm not gay. I just don't understand or accept the behavior as normal.

I'm not homo-phobic either. As in I don't have an irrational fear of homo-sexuals.

None of the most popular devinely inspired religious literature condons homo-sexuality. Indeed none of them condone sex for pleasure in any way unless it is for the purpose of being fruitful to multiply. Sex for pleasure is forbidden.

Yes, yes I know, among some of the more liberal sects of the religions based on Abramamian scripture are more accepting of things like Birth Control measures such as condoms, the pill etc. etc....

There are even rouge (they call themselves reformed) factions of some churches that are allowing women and openly gay men/women as clergy members. I guess they moderately believe in God.

I'm not sure if this is better or worse than the problems of sexual depravity among the established religions that is largely kept secret.

The truth is homo-sexualality is rampant among the Muslim Population of the world not to mention Catholics. Then we recently hear of an infant who was infected with HIV in a Jewish Circumsision Ceremony in which the Rabbi places his mouth on the infant male childs freshly cut penis.

Oh yeah! great, how did the Rabbi get HIV?

I guess "Only God Knows."

How about I just believe there is no God. I'll do my best to not be an asshole and when I die, well I'll just see what happens next if indeed there is a next.

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:I recently happened upon the fact that a friend of mine (described in this thread) was baptized as a child and later made a public profession of faith. For the 10 - 15 years I've known him, he's claimed to be an atheist. As mentioned at the link, he will not discuss issues related to his life after death (which he claims to believe is nonexistent), and is polite but firm in fending off any talk about Jesus (even with me, and the two of us are the next thing to brothers).

My question is this: assuming that his baptism and witness were properly accomplished (this means I don't want to debate immersion vs sprinkling, et c.) , can he have lost his salvation by becoming unchurched and at least claiming to be an unbeliever?

Once saved always saved. Period.The real question would be was his original conversion legit.Only God knows.

EDIT to add I just read the "this thread"....Sad to hear that he was abused by the church for being gayYes I believe it is a sin, but were all sinners. Love the sinner hate the sin.I will pray for your friend.

This is a very complicated question. It's one I've been wrestling with for quite some time. I was saved a few years ago. Without other believers around me, I eventually fell back into sin. I've come back only recently. I felt lost for a long time, and I felt like I just couldn't come back. I was always taught that once you were saved, you were always saved. But one day, I talked to a guy who told me that I needed to ask Jesus back into my heart. He said that regardless of what some of those verses said, Jesus was all-merciful and would forgive anyone who earnestly saught him. He prayed with me, and I asked Jesus back into my heart. He must have been right, because I had a true born again experience all over again. Whether Jesus truly came back into my heart, or whether He forgave me when I told Him that I needed Him to forgive my sins and couldn't do it alone, I don't know. But I do know that I was redeemed before Him. I just knew. I intend to give everything to Him and not let anything happen to my relationship with Him again.

There are many stories out there of people coming back. I've talked to people who have come back after falling into sin who have great relationships with God. While your situation sounds like an outright denial, which is different, even Peter denied Christ three times and was taken back. I think that if your friend prays and asks Christ to come back into Him and to forgive him of his sins, then he will be forgiven and taken back into the fold.

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

"It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." - General George S. Patton

Once a person knowingly goes against the word of God, they are DEAD in trespass and sin.

Jesus came that sinners might have LIFE and have it more abundantly. Jesus ACCOMPLISHED his death on the cross - he willingly died for sinners. Death and hell could not hold Jesus. Jesus had the power to lay down his life for sinners and take it up again. Jesus has the power to forgive sin.

When a lost soul repents (turns from going his own way and turns toward Jesus) and believes that Jesus died for his sins and rose again from the dead - that soul is born again and has EVERLASTING LIFE.

Eternal life is a GIFT. It was not received by merit, it is not KEPT BY MERIT. Salvation is BY GRACE through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Once saved always saved...you cannot lose you salvation.Period. Jesus died once for ALL your sins..past, present and future ones. There is nothing more for you can do...You can take this a step farther depending on if you are a Calvinist or not. FWIW People backslide...it happens all the time...however I bet that while you were backslidden you still knew the truth (that JC was your Lord and Savior). Heck it can't hurt a thing to ask Jesus "back" into your heart...But I would submit to you that the Holy Spirit never left you in the first place.

After thinking about it and praying about it, I now think that the powerful experience was coming back into the Lord's will, not receiving salvation again. I simply repented of my sin and told Him that I was ready to do His will again. It was the first time in a long time that I didn't feel sin.

I now agree with what's generally being said here. If you know that you were saved once, then God is still in you, and He wants you to come back. If we repeatedly sin voluntarily, often, God will seem to have abandoned us. He does this and other things as a punishment, so that we will come back to Him and do His will. But He never truly abandons us. Do not believe the devil's lies that God will forsake you.

The thing that concerns me about your friend is that he denies the existence of God. When I hit rock bottom, I did question the existence of God once or twice. But deep down, I knew that He was there. No matter how wild I got, I could never have truly denied His existence. Since this is what your friend is doing, maybe he was never saved to begin with. You can pray a simple prayer and be baptised without being saved. You really have to mean it and make a committment to be saved. So, in conclusion: I'd say that there's a good chance your friend was never saved at all. If he was saved, he can come back. He just has to give everything back to God.

Just a side note here: I feel like God's saying that I've been spending too much time and money on rifles. I'll be selling some AK parts kits and maybe some AR accessories at great prices, if anyone's interested. ;) Or I'd be willing to send you a parts kit if you give a certain amount of money to someone in need. Why not use an idol in my life to spread the Lord's glory?

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

"It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." - General George S. Patton

There are verses in the Bible that contain phrases such as, "...if we continue in the faith...", "...if you persevere...", and "...if we hold fast..."

I have many of them marked in my Bible, which I don't have with me at the moment, so I'm not able to cite specific chapter & verse at this time.

"Once saved, always saved" is a pat response which can give a measure of comfort, but I'm not sure it is in harmony with the whole of Scripture.

One of the marks of a true believer is perseverance (note: not perfection). A person who is a genuine believer will continue in the faith. There will usually be stumbles and side trips along the way, but he is determined to follow the Path.

Just some of my thoughts on the topic.

Welcome to Dar al Harb. Load up a few magazines, settle in, and make good use of your stay here.

"1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain"

2nd Corinthians 6:1

"17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

Galatians 2

You cannot "loose" salvation like you loose your car keys, but you can indeed reject God at any point and be as much in rebellion as Adam was.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Who is he talking about? Those who have been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the power of the coming age. That certainly does not sound like someone who has never truly accepted Christ. This is an individual who is saved and fully appreciates that salvation.

What are they doing? Falling away. I don't believe this is talking about a single sin. We all sin, every day. From my study of Scripture, falling away is a change just as extreme as being born again. It is a conversion from Christianity back to the old way.

Where does that leave them? Forever lost, not because God cannot save, but because they cannot repent. Why because they've seen everything Christ offers and still turned their back. There is no reason for them to return. Jesus may have what they need, but He has nothing they want.

While some might say that "if they fall away" is hypothetical and that to truly fall away is impossible the overall context makes this interpretation impossible.

"We must pay careful attention to what we ahve heard, so that we do not drift away." Hebrew 2:1"See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful unbelieving heart that turns away from God." 3:12"Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their disobedience." 4:11

The whole book of Hebrews is a warning to Jewish Christians not to abandon Christ and return to Judaism. Why would the author write that if they are under no danger of falling away?

As far as your friend is concerned. You do not know if his conversion was genuine. You do not know if he has completely fallen away. Continue to be his friend, keep praying for him and don't give up.

"1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain"

2nd Corinthians 6:1

"17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

Galatians 2

You cannot "loose" salvation like you loose your car keys, but you can indeed reject God at any point and be as much in rebellion as Adam was.

Those verses seem to be warning believers not to sin, but they don't imply the loss of salvation.

As for the comment about people not wanting to come back into repentence, what if they did? What if they stumbled for a while, regretted it, and were determined to come back?

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

"It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." - General George S. Patton

Originally Posted By Muskrat:Those verses seem to be warning believers not to sin, but they don't imply the loss of salvation.

Sin is inconsistent with salvation. Repeatedly throughout the New Testament epistles there are constant warnings about sin and judgement, and the warnings are primarily aimed at believers. The overall point being that making one prayer isn't permanent insurance. People can become a rebel at any time they wish to, and in such a condition they are just like Adam was after the fall.

As for the comment about people not wanting to come back into repentence, what if they did? What if they stumbled for a while, regretted it, and were determined to come back?

Just as surely as people can forsake God, they can return. God is willing to accept the backslider. God does not give one chance and then give up on us, but neither does He overlook a lifestyle of disobedience and willfulness.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.

I don't believe you can "lose" your salvation in terms of sinning too much (assuming you are sorry and trying to do better) or not being a good enough Christian. But I believe you can throw your salvation away through habitual, unrepentant sin, or conscious choice. He gave us free will, after all, and that's not a one-time shot -- it's for a lifetime.

Longshot_VA's wife, charter member of the ARFCOM EX-Widows' Club -- Motto: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:I recently happened upon the fact that a friend of mine (described in this thread) was baptized as a child and later made a public profession of faith. For the 10 - 15 years I've known him, he's claimed to be an atheist. As mentioned at the link, he will not discuss issues related to his life after death (which he claims to believe is nonexistent), and is polite but firm in fending off any talk about Jesus (even with me, and the two of us are the next thing to brothers).

My question is this: assuming that his baptism and witness were properly accomplished (this means I don't want to debate immersion vs sprinkling, et c.) , can he have lost his salvation by becoming unchurched and at least claiming to be an unbeliever?

Once saved always saved. Period.The real question would be was his original conversion legit.Only God knows.

EDIT to add I just read the "this thread"....Sad to hear that he was abused by the church for being gayYes I believe it is a sin, but were all sinners. Love the sinner hate the sin.I will pray for your friend.

Not quite so cut and dry:

Heb 6:4-6

2 Pet 2:20-21

I agree, Once saved, doesnt always mean always saved.

Take for example: Hostages get saved but on the way out they get hit by a nuke. They were once saved but now arent. Kinda the same idea.....kinda

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:I recently happened upon the fact that a friend of mine (described in this thread) was baptized as a child and later made a public profession of faith. For the 10 - 15 years I've known him, he's claimed to be an atheist. As mentioned at the link, he will not discuss issues related to his life after death (which he claims to believe is nonexistent), and is polite but firm in fending off any talk about Jesus (even with me, and the two of us are the next thing to brothers).

My question is this: assuming that his baptism and witness were properly accomplished (this means I don't want to debate immersion vs sprinkling, et c.) , can he have lost his salvation by becoming unchurched and at least claiming to be an unbeliever?

Cant lose what you never had.

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say give them all they want." Gen. William T. Sherman

My question is this: assuming that his baptism and witness were properly accomplished (this means I don't want to debate immersion vs sprinkling, et c.) , can he have lost his salvation by becoming unchurched and at least claiming to be an unbeliever?

Jesus said "he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." (Mat 10:22)

By that standard, can anyone truly say they're saved while they're still enduring temptation?

'Salvation' is the 'end-result' of a righteous life lived according to the commandments of God.

You are not 'saved' during your life.

You are 'saved' at the end of your life, or if you are alive when the Lord returns, at that time.

Consider St. Paul's words in Romans, Chapter 11....verses 21, 22

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Who are these 'wild branches'?

Us.

And IF God spared not the Jews, or the 'natural branches', what makes us think that He will spare us?

He will not...unless we 'continue in His Goodness.'

Eric The(Once'Really'Saved,Always'Really'Saved?)Hu­n

Eric, if as you say, " 'Salvation' is the 'end-result' of a righteous life lived according to the commandments of God " then I have two things to point out:

1. Jesus did not have to go to the cross if the above is true. You cannot have it both ways. What you SAID is that salvation comes from WORKS. A "righteous life lived according to the commandments of God." If that WERE the case, then Jesus did NOT have to go to the cross.

2. NONE OF US WOULD BE SAVED. If we are guilty in just ONE matter of the law, we are guilty of ALL of it. There is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE.

Thank God salvation is by GRACE, not works of righteousness which WE HAVE DONE.

Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.

See also

Matt 25:31-46

See also James 2:19-20; 24--

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?...Ye see then, that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only.

It requires both the sacrifice of the Savior, and then our willingness to submit to his will and offer a broken heart and contrite spirit in order to receive the full benefit of His great offering.

'Salvation' is the 'end-result' of a righteous life lived according to the commandments of God.

You are not 'saved' during your life.

You are 'saved' at the end of your life, or if you are alive when the Lord returns, at that time.

Consider St. Paul's words in Romans, Chapter 11....verses 21, 22

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Who are these 'wild branches'?

Us.

And IF God spared not the Jews, or the 'natural branches', what makes us think that He will spare us?

He will not...unless we 'continue in His Goodness.'

Eric The(Once'Really'Saved,Always'Really'Saved?)Hu­n

Eric, if as you say, " 'Salvation' is the 'end-result' of a righteous life lived according to the commandments of God " then I have two things to point out:

1. Jesus did not have to go to the cross if the above is true. You cannot have it both ways. What you SAID is that salvation comes from WORKS. A "righteous life lived according to the commandments of God." If that WERE the case, then Jesus did NOT have to go to the cross.

2. NONE OF US WOULD BE SAVED. If we are guilty in just ONE matter of the law, we are guilty of ALL of it. There is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE.

Thank God salvation is by GRACE, not works of righteousness which WE HAVE DONE.

+1

You should be careful, Eric.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast."

Why is it that the professor from Gilligan's Island can make a radio out of a coconut, but he can't fix a hole in a boat?

Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.

See also

Matt 25:31-46

See also James 2:19-20; 24--

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?...Ye see then, that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only.

It requires both the sacrifice of the Savior, and then our willingness to submit to his will and offer a broken heart and contrite spirit in order to receive the full benefit of His great offering.

Neither you, nor anyone else has submitted to his will. People want to pick and choose. If a person submits to his will, in the full, true sense of that statement, then they ALWAYS do his will. Never faltering, never coming up short. Never committing sins, always doing the will of God.

Simple fact: those who believe they can lose salvation are basing their salvation on THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS and NOT the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, what Jesus accomplished on the cross is INSUFFICIENT to save those souls who think they can lose it. THEY have to perform.

Their faith is in a FALSE JESUS (who cannot keep them saved) PLUS their own works.

Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.

See also

Matt 25:31-46

See also James 2:19-20; 24--

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?...Ye see then, that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only.

It requires both the sacrifice of the Savior, and then our willingness to submit to his will and offer a broken heart and contrite spirit in order to receive the full benefit of His great offering.

Neither you, nor anyone else has submitted to his will. People want to pick and choose. If a person submits to his will, in the full, true sense of that statement, then they ALWAYS do his will. Never faltering, never coming up short. Never committing sins, always doing the will of God.

Simple fact: those who believe they can lose salvation are basing their salvation on THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS and NOT the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, what Jesus accomplished on the cross is INSUFFICIENT to save those souls who think they can lose it. THEY have to perform.

Their faith is in a FALSE JESUS (who cannot keep them saved) PLUS their own works.

That is NOT saving faith.

Nice sermon, but you provided no explanation for the references.

We DO have to perform, that is, if you believe what Jesus taught. Read the sermon on the mount. In it, the Lord tells us what we must DO, in addition to believing in Him. The words are His, not mine or one of the disciples. What did he tell the woman caught in adultery? "Go, and sin no more." Not, "Go, and don't worry about anything; do whatever you want because I've got it covered."

You can't pick and choose which scriptures do believe and discard the rest. Each part is important, so there must be a way to assimilate it all.

Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.

See also

Matt 25:31-46

See also James 2:19-20; 24--

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?...Ye see then, that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only.

It requires both the sacrifice of the Savior, and then our willingness to submit to his will and offer a broken heart and contrite spirit in order to receive the full benefit of His great offering.

Neither you, nor anyone else has submitted to his will. People want to pick and choose. If a person submits to his will, in the full, true sense of that statement, then they ALWAYS do his will. Never faltering, never coming up short. Never committing sins, always doing the will of God.

Simple fact: those who believe they can lose salvation are basing their salvation on THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS and NOT the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, what Jesus accomplished on the cross is INSUFFICIENT to save those souls who think they can lose it. THEY have to perform.

Their faith is in a FALSE JESUS (who cannot keep them saved) PLUS their own works.

That is NOT saving faith.

Nice sermon, but you provided no explanation for the references.

We DO have to perform, that is, if you believe what Jesus taught. Read the sermon on the mount. In it, the Lord tells us what we must DO, in addition to believing in Him. The words are His, not mine or one of the disciples. What did he tell the woman caught in adultery? "Go, and sin no more." Not, "Go, and don't worry about anything; do whatever you want because I've got it covered."

You can't pick and choose which scriptures do believe and discard the rest. Each part is important, so there must be a way to assimilate it all.

You are right.

Jesus gave MANY commandments. On TWO hang ALL the law and the prophets.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has kept these two commandments.

You better stop trusting in YOUR righteousness (because you have NONE) and trust HIS righteousness.

Jesus gave many commandments and these show us our SIN. Our FAILURES and our SHORTCOMINGS. The commandments of God are a SCHOOLMASTER to LEAD US TO CHRIST.

They are NOT a means of "righteousness" they SHOW US WE ARE SINNERS IN NEED OF THE SAVIOUR:

Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.

See also

Matt 25:31-46

See also James 2:19-20; 24--

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?...Ye see then, that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only.

It requires both the sacrifice of the Savior, and then our willingness to submit to his will and offer a broken heart and contrite spirit in order to receive the full benefit of His great offering.

Neither you, nor anyone else has submitted to his will. People want to pick and choose. If a person submits to his will, in the full, true sense of that statement, then they ALWAYS do his will. Never faltering, never coming up short. Never committing sins, always doing the will of God.

Simple fact: those who believe they can lose salvation are basing their salvation on THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS and NOT the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, what Jesus accomplished on the cross is INSUFFICIENT to save those souls who think they can lose it. THEY have to perform.

Their faith is in a FALSE JESUS (who cannot keep them saved) PLUS their own works.

That is NOT saving faith.

Nice sermon, but you provided no explanation for the references.

We DO have to perform, that is, if you believe what Jesus taught. Read the sermon on the mount. In it, the Lord tells us what we must DO, in addition to believing in Him. The words are His, not mine or one of the disciples. What did he tell the woman caught in adultery? "Go, and sin no more." Not, "Go, and don't worry about anything; do whatever you want because I've got it covered."

You can't pick and choose which scriptures do believe and discard the rest. Each part is important, so there must be a way to assimilate it all.

You are right.

Jesus gave MANY commandments. On TWO hang ALL the law and the prophets.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has kept these two commandments.

You better stop trusting in YOUR righteousness (because you have NONE) and trust HIS righteousness.

Jesus gave many commandments and these show us our SIN. Our FAILURES and our SHORTCOMINGS. The commandments of God are a SCHOOLMASTER to LEAD US TO CHRIST.

They are NOT a means of "righteousness" they SHOW US WE ARE SINNERS IN NEED OF THE SAVIOUR:

The LORD Jesus Christ.

And if we love the Lord our God as commanded, what does Jesus tell us we must do?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If He tells us we are to do it, then we must do it, to the best of our abilities, no matter how difficult or impossible it may seem ("Be ye therefore perfect...")

Does the act itself justify us? Absolutely not. But we must do what we can, like James says, and show our faith by our works.

Consider the parable of the the ten virgins. All had been invited to greet the bridegroom, but only those who had prepared and trimmed their lamps were invited into the feast. Did all believe? Yes. Did all await anxiously his arrival? Of course. Did all expect to be admitted into his presence? Absolutely. Did all receive the reward of the company of the bridegroom? Not hardly.

Why is that? If all believed, shouldn't they have all received the same reward?

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast."

For by grace you are saved through faith

Can a person be saved by grace apart from faith? NO

Can a person after they believe reject the faith? Can they stop believing? Yes. Losing your salvation is not about commiting a sin and oops it's gone. It's not about merit. Losing your salvation is about a pattern of life that leads you to a point where you turn your back on God. You lose your salvation when you lose your faith.

Free will does not end when we choose Christ. If we choose to follow Him, we can choose to not follow Him. Hebrews 6 (quoted above) talks about a person who is fully a Christian who falls away. The entire book of Hebrews is addressed to Christians who are in danger of leaving Chrisitianity and going back to Judaism. Why write this if it is not possible?

Lady Liberty summed it up nicely:

I don't believe you can "lose" your salvation in terms of sinning too much (assuming you are sorry and trying to do better) or not being a good enough Christian. But I believe you can throw your salvation away through habitual, unrepentant sin, or conscious choice. He gave us free will, after all, and that's not a one-time shot -- it's for a lifetime.

Romans 8 lists a lot of outside forces that cannot separate us from Christ, but notice the one thing it doesn't list - US. Our salvation cannot be taken away from us. However, we can freely surrender it.

If you cannot comprehend how someone would willingly give up their salvation and turn their back on a relationship with Jesus after all He's done for us - GOOD! But you need to understand that persistent sin drives a wedge in that relationship on your end and it can lead you to a point where you are so uncomfortable with God that you begin to reject His presence in your life. This can lead to a point where you reject Him completely. See Hebrews 10:26-31

Assurance of salvation comes not from some non-existent doctrine of "once saved always saved." Assurance of salvation comes from knowing that we continue in faith! The passage that speaks clearest about us knowing we are saved emphasizes believing in Jesus.

I John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Notice he writes to those that believe for 2 reasons: 1) so that they will know they have eternal life and 2) that they will believe. They already believe. Why write that they may believe? Because it is necessary for us to continue in belief to continue in salvation.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Salvation is found IN CHRIST, not in the works one does:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The self-righteous quote James 2, leaving out how Abraham became righteous BEFORE GOD:

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

These self-righteous, religious people frustrate the grace of God:

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Those SELF-RIGHTEOUS look to themselves and to their works for their "righteousness." Those SAVED and BORN AGAIN know WHO their righteousness IS:

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The self-righteous, religious man seeks to gain his own righteousness through his religious works, ignorant of the fact that he will never obtain it through his own acts:

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

True salvation is so simple. But it requires HUMILITY, and the self-righteous will not humble themselves before God:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation is so simple that even a LITTLE CHILD can be saved:

Mr 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Salvation is a GIFT, but the self-righteous, religious souls reject the GIFT, thinking pridefully that they can EARN it:

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Those who are not saved are always quick to point out how a saved man can "lose salvation."

But they generally are not saved to begin with.

I already listed these verses, but they were conveniently overlooked by the self-righteous, religious crowd.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now, WHO is doing the keeping? Why GOD IS.

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

GOD also SEALED the believer.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

GOD sanctifies and PRESERVES BLAMELESS those who trust in HIM for salvation.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

Those who trust Jesus Christ are PRESERVED IN HIM.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Those who trust Jesus are KEPT BY HIM.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who trust JESUS shall NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION.

It is SO clear, it is SO plain .... to those who will HUMBLE themselves before God.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for those who are PROUD and SELF-RIGHTEOUS to see the truth.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

All the call on the Lord only "faithist" or for Crileys sake "trustists" doctrine pushers, the once saved always saved just cannot fly. It is inconsistant with sound scriptural analysis.

M't:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.M't:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.M't:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.M't:7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.M't:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.M't:7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:M't:7:25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.M't:7:26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:M't:7:27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Not everyone that says His name will be saved.

Quite contrary to your position, isnt it Criley?

Dram out

"That which does not kill us, can make it very difficult to get out of bed in the morning"

All the call on the Lord only "faithist" or for Crileys sake "trustists" doctrine pushers, the once saved always saved just cannot fly. It is inconsistant with sound scriptural analysis.

M't:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.M't:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.M't:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.M't:7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.M't:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.M't:7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:M't:7:25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.M't:7:26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:M't:7:27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Not everyone that says His name will be saved.

Quite contrary to your position, isnt it Criley?

Dram out

Contrary?

Not at all.

Please note what these people are POINTING TO as to why they should be accepted:

M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

They are pointing to THEIR WORKS.

THEY prophesied.

THEY cast out devils.

THEY did many wonderful works... even IN HIS NAME.

And they were NOT accepted.

Why?

Precisely because they attempted to GAIN THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS -

BY THEIR WORKS.

Note what they did NOT SAY OR DO: They did not say "Lord, we trusted YOU."

If they trusted Jesus, they would not be in the position they were in - lost and bound for hell.

But precisely because they DID trust THEIR WORKS..... even though they did them in HIS NAME..... they ARE going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

And they were SURPRISED about it

And the same will happen to the people who have posted in this thread, pointing to their own works to get them to heaven.

The problem with the Pharisees, as criley mentioned, was that they literally thought they could earn their salvation by works alone. They completely rejected the idea that they needed mercy provided by the Savior's grace. They were obviously wrong.

James cautioned against assuming that one is saved by faith alone without works.

The obvious answer is that the truth is in the middle: Having faith and acting accordingly. Would a truly faithful person reject Christ's command to be baptised? Of course not. Because of his/her faith, the person would seek to obey the Lord. Where necessary the person repents and applies Christ's atonement for mistakes made. Repenting is another act of faith.

Astro's example of the ten virgins is wonderfully correct. All ten virgins were "believers", but not all were admitted into the bridegroom's company. Something seperated the believers who acted from the believers who didn't.

Originally Posted By Shane333:The problem with the Pharisees, as criley mentioned, was that they literally thought they could earn their salvation by works alone. They completely rejected the idea that they needed mercy provided by the Savior's grace. They were obviously wrong.

James cautioned against assuming that one is saved by faith alone without works.

In your first paragraph, you are wrong. They did the good works IN HIS NAME. They "believed" albeit in vain. They believed it was CHRIST PLUS WORKS.

Re your second paragraph: This is NOT what James said at all.

James said that a saved man WILL DO GOOD WORKS. He did not say that salvation was by works.

There is an ETERNAL difference there.

From James chapter 2:

14 ¶ What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What people fail to realize is this: Grapefruit trees bear grapefruits BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ALREADY ARE.

They were not some OTHER TREE and WORKED AND WORKED to become a grapefruit tree.

Now how do you know that the tree is a grapefruit tree?

BECAUSE IT BEARS THE FRUIT.

James is saying, "Don't go telling me you are a grapefruit tree when you don't have grapefruit on your branches. Men will KNOW you are a grapefruit tree when they SEE THE FRUIT."

Religious, self-rightoeus souls think they can make themselves into Christians BY THEIR WORKS.

They are DEAD wrong

Trust Jesus Christ ALONE and HE will give you a new birth and THEN you can bear fruit.

Originally Posted By Shane333:The problem with the Pharisees, as criley mentioned, was that they literally thought they could earn their salvation by works alone. They completely rejected the idea that they needed mercy provided by the Savior's grace. They were obviously wrong.

James cautioned against assuming that one is saved by faith alone without works.

In your first paragraph, you are wrong. They did the good works IN HIS NAME. They "believed" albeit in vain. They believed it was CHRIST PLUS WORKS.

Re your second paragraph: This is NOT what James said at all.

James said that a saved man WILL DO GOOD WORKS. He did not say that salvation was by works.

There is an ETERNAL difference there.

From James chapter 2:

14 ¶ What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What people fail to realize is this: Grapefruit trees bear grapefruits BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ALREADY ARE.

They were not some OTHER TREE and WORKED AND WORKED to become a grapefruit tree.

Now how do you know that the tree is a grapefruit tree?

BECAUSE IT BEARS THE FRUIT.

James is saying, "Don't go telling me you are a grapefruit tree when you don't have grapefruit on your branches. Men will KNOW you are a grapefruit tree when they SEE THE FRUIT."

Religious, self-rightoeus souls think they can make themselves into Christians BY THEIR WORKS.

They are DEAD wrong

Trust Jesus Christ ALONE and HE will give you a new birth and THEN you can bear fruit.

Gotta disagree with you. The Pharisees were literally attempting to earn their salvation by themselves. I see no evidence that they were sincerely doing things in the Lord's name. In fact, Jesus compared them to "whited sepulchars": pretty on the outside but full of rotten bodies inside.

If they were sincere in their worship, Jesus wouldn't have referred to them in such a way.

Oh, as for being saved by faith, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you mine by my works. Seems more than fair.

Originally Posted By Shane333:The problem with the Pharisees, as criley mentioned, was that they literally thought they could earn their salvation by works alone. They completely rejected the idea that they needed mercy provided by the Savior's grace. They were obviously wrong.

James cautioned against assuming that one is saved by faith alone without works.

In your first paragraph, you are wrong. They did the good works IN HIS NAME. They "believed" albeit in vain. They believed it was CHRIST PLUS WORKS.

Re your second paragraph: This is NOT what James said at all.

James said that a saved man WILL DO GOOD WORKS. He did not say that salvation was by works.

There is an ETERNAL difference there.

From James chapter 2:

14 ¶ What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What people fail to realize is this: Grapefruit trees bear grapefruits BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ALREADY ARE.

They were not some OTHER TREE and WORKED AND WORKED to become a grapefruit tree.

Now how do you know that the tree is a grapefruit tree?

BECAUSE IT BEARS THE FRUIT.

James is saying, "Don't go telling me you are a grapefruit tree when you don't have grapefruit on your branches. Men will KNOW you are a grapefruit tree when they SEE THE FRUIT."

Religious, self-rightoeus souls think they can make themselves into Christians BY THEIR WORKS.

They are DEAD wrong

Trust Jesus Christ ALONE and HE will give you a new birth and THEN you can bear fruit.

Gotta disagree with you. The Pharisees were literally attempting to earn their salvation by themselves. I see no evidence that they were sincerely doing things in the Lord's name. In fact, Jesus compared them to "whited sepulchars": pretty on the outside but full of rotten bodies inside.

If they were sincere in their worship, Jesus wouldn't have referred to them in such a way.

Oh, as for being saved by faith, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you mine by my works. Seems more than fair.

Well, first of all, no where in the text does Jesus say that he is referring to Pharisees. So, you are reading your preconceived notions into the situation.

Secondly, JESUS SAID they did the works in HIS name so it is OBVIOUS that they had "belief in him" of some sort.

The PROBLEM that is apparent according to JESUS is, they trusted in THEIR WORKS in CHRIST'S NAME.

Gotta disagree with you. The Pharisees were literally attempting to earn their salvation by themselves. I see no evidence that they were sincerely doing things in the Lord's name. In fact, Jesus compared them to "whited sepulchars": pretty on the outside but full of rotten bodies inside.

If they were sincere in their worship, Jesus wouldn't have referred to them in such a way.

Oh, as for being saved by faith, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you mine by my works. Seems more than fair.

Well, first of all, no where in the text does Jesus say that he is referring to Pharisees. So, you are reading your preconceived notions into the situation.

Secondly, JESUS SAID they did the works in HIS name so it is OBVIOUS that they had "belief in him" of some sort.

The PROBLEM that is apparent according to JESUS is, they trusted in THEIR WORKS in CHRIST'S NAME.

I am going to stick with Jesus.

criley,

You seem a little behind on your scripture study, so here is your lesson for the day:Matthew 23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done,and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus very clearly indicates that the Pharisees needed to both have faith and act accordingly.

Do you still want to lecture me on things you obviously don't understand?

Gotta disagree with you. The Pharisees were literally attempting to earn their salvation by themselves. I see no evidence that they were sincerely doing things in the Lord's name. In fact, Jesus compared them to "whited sepulchars": pretty on the outside but full of rotten bodies inside.

If they were sincere in their worship, Jesus wouldn't have referred to them in such a way.

Oh, as for being saved by faith, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you mine by my works. Seems more than fair.

Well, first of all, no where in the text does Jesus say that he is referring to Pharisees. So, you are reading your preconceived notions into the situation.

Secondly, JESUS SAID they did the works in HIS name so it is OBVIOUS that they had "belief in him" of some sort.

The PROBLEM that is apparent according to JESUS is, they trusted in THEIR WORKS in CHRIST'S NAME.

I am going to stick with Jesus.

criley,

You seem a little behind on your scripture study, so here is your lesson for the day:Matthew 23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done,and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus very clearly indicates that the Pharisees needed to both have faith and act accordingly.

Do you still want to lecture me on things you obviously don't understand?

The text we were discussing prior to your joining was in Matthew SEVEN, not Matthew 23.

And in the text WE WERE DISCUSSING before you joined in, there WERE NO PHARISEES mentioned. So it is actually very improper to enter into an ongoing conversation and comment on it, and then attempt to say that the conversation was about something other than the thing that was the subject at hand.

But, even in the passage you quote (and totally misapply) Jesus pointed out to Pharisees that their OWN attempts to gain their own righteousness, which was based on THEIR ATTEMPTS TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS GOD GAVE THEM, could only make them LOOK GOOD ON THE OUTSIDE.

Which is ALL any religion can do. Religion can only make someone look good on the outside.

And again, ALL the law can be summed up in two commandments - NEITHER of which any man can keep.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you think you love God with ALL your heart, ALL your soul and ALL your mind, you are deceived.

If you think you love your neighbor AS YOURSELF, you are deceived.

The law of God SHOWS MEN THAT THEY ARE SINNERS.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Lost, religious, self-righteous souls think that THEY can gain righteousness by keeping commandments. Of course, they don't keep the commandments to begin with, but in their self-righteous pride they THINK they do.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Those saved know that they cannot save themselves. They trust the justification that comes by the FAITH OF CHRIST (not man's faith). Those who are lost, think they gain justification by the works of the law.

Gotta disagree with you. The Pharisees were literally attempting to earn their salvation by themselves. I see no evidence that they were sincerely doing things in the Lord's name. In fact, Jesus compared them to "whited sepulchars": pretty on the outside but full of rotten bodies inside.

If they were sincere in their worship, Jesus wouldn't have referred to them in such a way.

Oh, as for being saved by faith, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you mine by my works. Seems more than fair.

Well, first of all, no where in the text does Jesus say that he is referring to Pharisees. So, you are reading your preconceived notions into the situation.

Secondly, JESUS SAID they did the works in HIS name so it is OBVIOUS that they had "belief in him" of some sort.

The PROBLEM that is apparent according to JESUS is, they trusted in THEIR WORKS in CHRIST'S NAME.

I am going to stick with Jesus.

criley,

You seem a little behind on your scripture study, so here is your lesson for the day:Matthew 23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done,and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus very clearly indicates that the Pharisees needed to both have faith and act accordingly.

Do you still want to lecture me on things you obviously don't understand?

The text we were discussing prior to your joining was in Matthew SEVEN, not Matthew 23.

And in the text WE WERE DISCUSSING before you joined in, there WERE NO PHARISEES mentioned. So it is actually very improper to enter into an ongoing conversation and comment on it, and then attempt to say that the conversation was about something other than the thing that was the subject at hand.

But, even in the passage you quote (and totally misapply) Jesus pointed out to Pharisees that their OWN attempts to gain their own righteousness, which was based on THEIR ATTEMPTS TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS GOD GAVE THEM, could only make them LOOK GOOD ON THE OUTSIDE.

Which is ALL any religion can do. Religion can only make someone look good on the outside.

And again, ALL the law can be summed up in two commandments - NEITHER of which any man can keep.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you think you love God with ALL your heart, ALL your soul and ALL your mind, you are deceived.

If you think you love your neighbor AS YOURSELF, you are deceived.

The law of God SHOWS MEN THAT THEY ARE SINNERS.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Lost, religious, self-righteous souls think that THEY can gain righteousness by keeping commandments. Of course, they don't keep the commandments to begin with, but in their self-righteous pride they THINK they do.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Those saved know that they cannot save themselves. They trust the justification that comes by the FAITH OF CHRIST (not man's faith). Those who are lost, think they gain justification by the works of the law.

I can't believe it. I honestly can't. I haven't seen such blatant and pathetic childish behavior since kindergarten. You chide me for quoting from Matthew 23 because it comes after Matthew 7, then you immediately turn around and quote Matthew 22, Romans, Galatians, etc?!!!!

In other posts of yours you quoted [gasp] Corinthians, Matthew 22, Romans, and other scriptures that came after Matthew 7. How dare you criticize me for citing a relevant scripture from the same book in the Bible, just because of your own lack of scriptural knowledge.

Criley, you've painted yourself into a corner, and I offered you a way to get out with at least a little dignity. Instead you attacked the offered hand of help. You just can't seem to keep from digging yourself a bigger pit to fall into.

Gotta disagree with you. The Pharisees were literally attempting to earn their salvation by themselves. I see no evidence that they were sincerely doing things in the Lord's name. In fact, Jesus compared them to "whited sepulchars": pretty on the outside but full of rotten bodies inside.

If they were sincere in their worship, Jesus wouldn't have referred to them in such a way.

Oh, as for being saved by faith, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you mine by my works. Seems more than fair.

Well, first of all, no where in the text does Jesus say that he is referring to Pharisees. So, you are reading your preconceived notions into the situation.

Secondly, JESUS SAID they did the works in HIS name so it is OBVIOUS that they had "belief in him" of some sort.

The PROBLEM that is apparent according to JESUS is, they trusted in THEIR WORKS in CHRIST'S NAME.

I am going to stick with Jesus.

criley,

You seem a little behind on your scripture study, so here is your lesson for the day:Matthew 23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done,and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus very clearly indicates that the Pharisees needed to both have faith and act accordingly.

Do you still want to lecture me on things you obviously don't understand?

The text we were discussing prior to your joining was in Matthew SEVEN, not Matthew 23.

And in the text WE WERE DISCUSSING before you joined in, there WERE NO PHARISEES mentioned. So it is actually very improper to enter into an ongoing conversation and comment on it, and then attempt to say that the conversation was about something other than the thing that was the subject at hand.

But, even in the passage you quote (and totally misapply) Jesus pointed out to Pharisees that their OWN attempts to gain their own righteousness, which was based on THEIR ATTEMPTS TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS GOD GAVE THEM, could only make them LOOK GOOD ON THE OUTSIDE.

Which is ALL any religion can do. Religion can only make someone look good on the outside.

And again, ALL the law can be summed up in two commandments - NEITHER of which any man can keep.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you think you love God with ALL your heart, ALL your soul and ALL your mind, you are deceived.

If you think you love your neighbor AS YOURSELF, you are deceived.

The law of God SHOWS MEN THAT THEY ARE SINNERS.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Lost, religious, self-righteous souls think that THEY can gain righteousness by keeping commandments. Of course, they don't keep the commandments to begin with, but in their self-righteous pride they THINK they do.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Those saved know that they cannot save themselves. They trust the justification that comes by the FAITH OF CHRIST (not man's faith). Those who are lost, think they gain justification by the works of the law.

I can't believe it. I honestly can't. I haven't seen such blatant and pathetic childish behavior since kindergarten. You chide me for quoting from Matthew 23 because it comes after Matthew 7, then you immediately turn around and quote Matthew 22, Romans, Galatians, etc?!!!!

In other posts of yours you quoted [gasp] Corinthians, Matthew 22, Romans, and other scriptures that came after Matthew 7. How dare you criticize me for citing a relevant scripture from the same book in the Bible, just because of your own lack of scriptural knowledge.

Criley, you've painted yourself into a corner, and I offered you a way to get out with at least a little dignity. Instead you attacked the offered hand of help. You just can't seem to keep from digging yourself a bigger pit to fall into.

Childish behavior?

Facts bother children when the facts upset their feelings.

FACT is, you entered into an ongoing conversation about a passage in Matthew SEVEN. You attempted to say, in the context of that ALREADY ONGOING discussion, that the PHARISEES did this or that.

Then when I pointed out the FACT that the passages that we were ALREADY DISCUSSING had NOTHING to do with Pharisees, you go into child mode and get all personal.

1 Cor 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

No works. No self-righteousness. No religion.

If you want to be SAVED from sin.... if you want to escape the WRATH of God....

You will have to place your faith - you will have to trust- SOLEY in Jesus Christ.

If you trust what YOU DO in any way, shape or form, you are NOT trusting Him. You are putting faith in YOURSELF.

Acts 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 [And] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

God's own blood shed..... and the self-righteous, religious man thinks his works are worthy to be added to the blood of Jesus Christ.

James 4:6 ... God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of Godthrough faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now, WHO is doing the keeping? Why GOD IS.

Read the whole verse. God keeps us, but our faith is still essential. God keeps us as long as we want to be kept.

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

GOD also SEALED the believer.

OK, this might mean something if you went and explained what it means to be sealed in context.

You can't just pull various Scriptures out and past them together to mean what you want. Or else:

Matthew 27:5 ". . . and he went away and hanged himself."Luke 10:37 "Go and do the same."John 13:27 " . . .What you do, do quickly."

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

GOD sanctifies and PRESERVES BLAMELESS those who trust in HIM for salvation.

This passage actually undermines your argument. Why would Paul pray that they be preserved if they are already assured of that preservation?

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

Those who trust Jesus Christ are PRESERVED IN HIM.

Again, they are preserved as long as they trust. In fact, if you read on, Jude condemns those who "turn the grace of our God into licentioussness." Those are the people who say that once you are saved, you can sin all you want and it does not matter. Does that sound familiar?

He goes on to give 3 examples of God's judgment. Significantly, the first is the Israelites in the wilderness who were SAVED from Egypt only to perish in the wilderness because of their subsequent lack of faith. The second is that Angels which rebelled were cast out. The point is to warn them not to turn from the faith or they will also be rejected.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Those who trust Jesus are KEPT BY HIM.

Again notice the emphasis on belief. If he stopped believing he would no longer be kept.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who trust JESUS shall NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION

.

Again, note the requirement of trusting. If they stop trusting, then they sahll come into condemnation.

It is SO clear, it is SO plain .... to those who will HUMBLE themselves before God.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for those who are PROUD and SELF-RIGHTEOUS to see the truth.

While we can all use a little more humility, I find it extremely ironic that you can open your post with a statement that everyone who disagrees with you is lost and then chastise US for our pride and self-righteousness.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

And thus, the argument against SALVATION BY THE GRACE OF GOD ALONE

There is no logical connection between your quotation of I Cor. 2:14 and your statement.

In context, Paul was contrasting His preaching with the philosophy of the day. Since I have not quoted secular philosophers, but have instead tried to help you look at the texts you use IN CONTEXT this would not apply to our discussion.

You have yet to respond to the lengthy quotation I posted from Hebrews.

Originally Posted By Wdsman:So because we disagree with you, we are damned. Hmmm.

Not so. Disagreement with me has nothing to do with the matter. SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS does. And those who trust their own works, are by definition, self-righteous

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of Godthrough faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Read the whole verse. God keeps us, but our faith is still essential. God keeps us as long as we want to be kept.

The verse does not say that. You are shoe-horning it in there, trying to add YOUR WORKS into an already completed equation. If you were saved and believed the word of God, you would know it is the faith OF CHRIST that saves. Not man's faith.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

It is the faith OF Christ that sanctifies, justifies and gives salvation.

I am not going to to through all your other points, because you do the same thing in each case. You have already decided that you are not going to trust in Jesus' FINISHED work, but you are going to try and add YOUR righteousness into the mix.