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Discuss - How it Works: Powerset Design

The aesthetics linked to some sort of weakness chart still doesn't fit.

I remember I had a character in CoX who was a fire/fire blaster, the fire coloured a dark green because it wasn't fire for Skunk Girl, it was stink.

With a system in place to make aesthetics linked to some kind of weakness this would be resisted by anything that resists fire, instead of those with little/no sense of smell.

Which is why I love the aesthetic decoupling. Is that fire you're using? Magic that looks like fire? A horrific radiation blast? All up to you. It's preferable the way they have it; three damage types, a variety of ways of dealing those damage types, and (hopefully) a huge variety of ways to look dealing those damage types.

Edit: a better idea would be to have some sort of augment/enhancement for a power that codes your power a certain way. That way you can have the power have a strength and weakness defined by the player.

The issues with knock down and knock back with multiple people are well known and were hotly debated.
Knock back was wonderful when people used it correctly, and infuriating when used incorrectly.
So much so that people even wanted an enhancement that had to be slotted to change things.
For as often people wanted to put thet guy over there, there were people putting that guy in the wrong place for the people directly involved with that guy.
As you said it can cause problems with the community - we have had a huge thread on this very issue on these boards. There were, in the omd game forums, huge threads over the issue.
We intend to avoid that route by giving agency to the player to decide how they want to play when it comes to knock down and back. It won't prevent avery argument, it isn't meant to. It is meant as a way for the player to decide what is best for them and to be able to use the tool which they find best for their play.
You can customize your keys / buttons and create macros to choose your preferred method. Learning annew way to play so tou can decide, on the fly, what is most advantageous. The default being the situation which causes the least amount of problems for everyone as whole.
Also understand that our mechanics are different thsn thenold game. Back then, knock down was a low threshold magniude of knock back. This isn't how it works for CoT. Knock down and Knock back are 2 different vector displacement effects. Each one can be resisted and reduced. And we can set up timing to balance knock down - to get ready stance with timing for knock back distance - ready stance so neither is directly more advantageous so far as timing is concerned.

But... you just moved that toxic and well know argument from the forums and into the game itself as a game mechanic. How players interact with each other is affected by the options players have to interact with each other and the game world. By singling out knockback like this, you make whining about it seem legitimate purely from a design standpoint. Do you really want those forum arguments to be what a new player who wants to create a guy who punches enemies across the street encounters when they team up?

In this case, having more options is a bad thing. I mean, even I, as a knockback artist in CoH will gladly agree that some knockback powers really shouldn't have had it, like Energy Torrent and their kind. But powers like Force Bolt or Hurricane definitely should have.

Basically, if knockback is an added effect of the power, sure, make it optional. I still won't like it, but I get the point. Unwanted random knockback is just that. But if knockback is the entire point of the power, it should NOT be optional. It's a control (Force enemy movement with temporary incapacitation) and should be treated as one. Unless other control powers need to be right clicked to function at 100%, of course. Then it's just being consistent. But that'd just be silly.

Also, in case you didn't notice, I really do want a Force Bolt styled single target heavy knockback power. If it was in a tertiary powerset, I'd get it on every single character.

Default state is knock down, alternate activation is knock back. Customization is done via keybinding, not the default states.

Dark Ether wrote:

You have the option to do whichever you want. If you want knock back, you can do that. If you don't, you can choose knock down. I fail to see how the player having the freedom to choose is equal to doom.

If CoT will allow aspects of powers like Knockdown or Knockback to be "player selectable via keybind" then that's a huge leap forward from CoH. I wouldn't really care what the "default" effect of any given power is as long as it could be switched via a simple keybind.

With this kind of keybinding you could have a power that would EITHER Knockdown or Knockback exactly when you wanted it to. From the point of view of the of how CoH worked that's almost like getting TWO unique powers packed into one.

McNum wrote:

But if knockback is the entire point of the power, it should NOT be optional. It's a control (Force enemy movement with temporary incapacitation) and should be treated as one. Unless other control powers need to be right clicked to function at 100%, of course. Then it's just being consistent. But that'd just be silly.

If I understand it correctly they wouldn't be making Knockback "optional" but merely not the default effect. There's a big difference there.

I sort of get the feeling you didn't have much experience with keybinding back in CoH but the kind of thing that's being talked about here would likely be very trivial to set up. Basically let's assume you put the power in question (in this case Force Bolt) in your power tray in slot number one. That means normally all you have to do is press the "1" key and it fires. Simple enough. Now because the power is "defaulted" to Knockdown in CoT that's what it'll do by default. Still simple.

But let's assume you absolutely can't stand Knockdown and really want the power's effect to always be Knockback. Because that's not the "default" effect all you'd have to do is create a simple one-line keybind so whenever you press the "1" key you'd get Knockback instead. Once the keybind is defined you'll never have to mess with it again and it'll work exactly how it used to in CoH.

Again if this is going to be like what Tannim is saying you'll have yourself about 30 seconds worth of work to make the keybind do exactly what you want it to do. This is seriously -not- the "problem/doom" you are making it out to be here.

Also you have to remember knockback and knockdown in terms of realism are the same thing. It is just how you as the power wielder use it, for example not having any control of knockdown or knockback surely shows how incompetent a power wielder you are as you could direct you power to pile drive the enemy to the ground or to knock them back.

What Tannim is saying is that you have truely mastered your power or at least can and you don't have to be an incompetent anymore :P !!!

Question: Can I make a "knockback version" of a power as a macro button in my power tray, for those of us who are Power Tray Button mouse clickers?

Comment to McNum: While it's true that some people will want their teammates not to use KB, you can still tell those people to p1$$ off. It's YOUR toon, play it how YOU want. The same arguments happen in PVP games of all kinds when team PVP happens. "Everyone has to play their guy PRECISELY the way _I_ tell them to or they're off my team...blah blah blah" The response you get to that is usually people trolling you. My friends who play Overwatch constantly have stories about jerks who ignore objectives just to get higher kill counts, etc. Nobody can actually tell anyone else what to do.

If you were planning on having the built-in excuse of "its not my fault, that's just how my powers work" and this takes that away from you, too bad. Play your game your way and if people give you crap for it, ignore them, argue with them, or stop teaming with them. All this does is make you, the player, take ownership responsibility for your play choices. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Even in old CoX, you CHOSE to make that Energy Blaster and you CHOSE to slot up for maximum KB. The fact that you can't hide behind the excuse of "but that's how my powers work" is a very minor problem, at worst, from what I know.

Also, the argument of "that's what the power does" no longer holds true because this isn't CoX and this powerset isn't CoX's Energy Blast set. New game, new rules, new everything.

Also you have to remember knockback and knockdown in terms of realism are the same thing. It is just how you as the power wielder use it, for example not having any control of knockdown or knockback surely shows how incompetent a power wielder you are as you could direct you power to pile drive the enemy to the ground or to knock them back.
What Tannim is saying is that you have truely mastered your power or at least can and you don't have to be an incompetent anymore :P !!!

Right... once again with this keybind control you could make this single power do Knockback OR Knockdown exactly whenever you wanted. It'd actually give us FAR MORE capability/control than we ever had in CoH with these kinds of powers.

As a player who'd vote Force Bolt as one of the best powers in CoH, this disappoints me greatly. A power like that absolutely needs to be Knock BACK and only that, there's no situation where you would fire a single target knockback power at a target for any other reason than "That guy needs to be over THERE!" It should never have an alternate mode.

You just essentially removed all knockback from the game. Because most teams will have some melee player whining about how a ranged player would dare to defend themselves by knocking a scary melee foe away from them. This will have consequences for the community tone for the game, and none of it will be good.

This is the first news that actually shakes my confidence in the game.

/em sigh

Not again.

What people in groups object to is "DUMB" gameplay that is not helpful to a team. Sometimes you want to Stand & Stick. Sometimes you want to Divide & Conquer. Having powers that do One Or The Other with no option to switch states amounts to enforced "DUMB" gameplay at some point just because the PLAYER cannot adapt to changing circumstances, situations and tactical dynamics due to the fact that the Powers they are using are fixed and unchanging in their effects.

Players who are incapable of adapting to changing circumstances and situations are considered to be Bad Players. But when Players are UNABLE to adapt to changing situations and circumstances, that's Bad Game Design of the One Size Fits All Situations variety.

Speaking just for myself, I know that *I* would want to play a game where the choice between KnockDOWN and KnockBACK is something that depends on the intelligence and situational awareness of the Player, and the game gives me the necessary finesse/control to choose which of the two is appropriate to use at different times. That way, SMART gameplay on my part can be rewarded and recognized as "being the fault of the Player" rather than being forced into doing "DUMB" gameplay simply because I haven't got any other options available to me if I want to use my Powers at all.

McNum wrote:

You just essentially removed all knockback from the game.

Oh please. Really? The glass can only be either completely full at all times or completely empty at all times, and there are no middle states or legitimate reasons to switch between one or the other? Situations are NEVER any different? There's only All Or Nothing?

Why are you not looking at this as an opportunity(!) to reward intelligent gameplay by the Player through use of careful control of HOW their Powers work and WHAT effects they can have?

Think about it this way. What you're insisting upon is essentially the "Always On" LIMITATION from the Champions system roleplaying game. It's like saying that someone with Super Strength shouldn't be able to dial back the amount of force they apply AT ALL TIMES to things, because then they won't be "Super Strong" all the time anymore. Kryptonians can't pick up glasses of orange juice without shattering the glass every single time simply because they can't dial down their strength to match the task at hand (in this case, picking up an object that will shatter if grasped too tightly and make a mess that someone ELSE is going to have to clean up).

There will be times to "push Foes around" via KnockBACK.
There will be times to "keep Foes pinned in place" via KnockDOWN.

Being unABLE to choose between those two results is Bad Game Design.
Being unWILLING to choose between those two results is Bad Game Play.

Between those two possibilities stands the intelligence, perception and team play spirit of the Player. I'd rather empower the Player to play "smart" (if they can) by giving the Player options and control over what they're doing ... than force them to sometimes play "dumb" (or worse, stop contributing at all) at the game mechanical level by taking intelligent gameplay OUT of the Player's hands from the get-go in the game design.

Just because you have a hammer doesn't make every problem a nail. Sometimes you need a screwdriver, so use the RIGHT tool for the job at hand ... instead of using the same tool for EVERY job. That's my perspective on this sort of thing.

Your mileage may vary, of course. ^_~

—

Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

Tannim said that right-clicking in power tray uses alt-effect. But even so I expect to be able to make macros to place in the power tray so that I can choose to use the alt-effect as standard.

The "right-click to activate alt-effect" scheme will likely just be the "hardwired" way to do that for people who don't want (or care) to be more creative with custom keybinding.

blacke4dawn wrote:

My guess is that this mechanic of alt-effects is not limited to just the knockdown-knockback combo.

That actually could be the real news with all this. Imagine all the new ways that various powers could be "dynamically shifted" to be able to produce multiple effects. It may turn out that merely shifting a power between knockdown and knockback will be the "simplistic baby-step" version of this feature.

Tannim said that right-clicking in power tray uses alt-effect. But even so I expect to be able to make macros to place in the power tray so that I can choose to use the alt-effect as standard.

My guess is that this mechanic of alt-effects is not limited to just the knockdown-knockback combo.

Two things.

I, for one, want the Alternative Toggle Key to be something that I can define in the Keybinding UI so as to be able to move it around to wherever my control scheme on my keyboard needs it to be. If I want to use the Alt key instead of Shift, I need somewhere to be able to specify that in an Options Menu.

Other Powersets would no doubt benefit from this kind of control schema. Being able to "Use Momentum in this attack? (Y/N)" on the fly would be EXTREMELY valuable. So I daresay that the functionality of this kind of "selector switch for Powers" will be a lot more useful than just for choosing between KnockBACK and KnockDOWN.

—

Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

I, for one, want the Alternative Toggle Key to be something that I can define in the Keybinding UI so as to be able to move it around to wherever my control scheme on my keyboard needs it to be. If I want to use the Alt key instead of Shift, I need somewhere to be able to specify that in an Options Menu.

Yes yes of course, but I was answering Radiac's specific question of clicking on the power tray when activating powers.

And so, Redlynne shows up to prove my point. THIS is what you invite into the game by having this toggle. My argument for this has always been to avoid exactly this kind of drama in the game itself. Not legitimizing it. Not encouraging it. Not having an option just because it always starts a fight. And here's said fight right now. And no, I will not engage in a point by point fight with that again. Because, yeah... "Not again..." We did this argument. Repeatedly. And unless we get a dev-sanctioned thread about just that, because all of this is pretty much one line spiraling out of control in a more general thread about powers, I really don't feel like doing that song and dance today.

(As an aside, a dev-sanctioned "Knockback discussions go here!" thread would probably be nice right about now, if you want to kick that hornet's nest. At least to keep this thread about all the powers, instead of just these few.)

My greatest worry for this is not a mechanics issue, I'm sure that part won't be much trouble, it's the community issue that worries me. Do you want a friendly community like City of Heroes, or do you want a community where people come running in to shout down those who dare play the game in a way they consider sub-optimal? Because as you can see, you're getting that. Except you went and implemented it in the game as a feature. Why would you ever do that?

Let designated knockback powers be pure knockback, no toggle, no alternate. Let powers with incidental knockback be knockdown. No toggle, no alternate. Using knockback at a poor time is no worse than a tank pulling AoE spamming foes into the group or an AoE Immobilize that's used at the wrong time. I've probably died more to either of those in CoH than any type of knockback errors combined, but those don't get multi-page fights on the forums.

Otherwise... you get this. Do you want this in the game? I don't. I just want to play the game, not argue about my powers with every melee teammate I run into. But as long as KB/KD alt-fire exists... that fight will come. Over and over and over. Unless you conform to the One True Way of Melee. Please consider the community aspects of power designs more than you're already doing. I doubt any amount of power design can truly quell the knockback haters, but at least don't encourage this argument in-game!

I refuse to believe that the game will descend into chaos, pitchforks and torches, just because knock-down/knockback effects can now be optionally changed to work differently.

Jerks will still find something to act like jerks about in any case and they can still be ignored in any case. You are basically arguing for us to be given exactly what CoX had, i.e. hard-wired KB in some powers, but you yourself already said that THAT treatment of the power created arguments back in the day. So what do you think we can expect to gain from having it your way now? By your own description of the past, there was plenty of flame warring on forums and people not getting along in teams over KB and it's use or misuse THEN. That isn't a persuasive reason to KEEP that system as it was with no changes.

So in the new system as we now understand it, you're not eliminating those complaints, ok, I see that. But the thing YOU'RE advocating for doesn't make the world a more harmonious place either, it just gives people who want to do indiscriminate, and often unhelpful KB with their powers (i.e. you) a trite excuse to use when people would complain about it.

So now the chat argument that went like this:
Rad: "hey, stop knocking everything out of my AOE effects..."
McNum: "I can't help it, I'm an Energy blaster..."
Rad: " *sigh* you're the worst..."

And so, Redlynne shows up to prove my point. THIS is what you invite into the game by having this toggle. My argument for this has always been to avoid exactly this kind of drama in the game itself. Not legitimizing it. Not encouraging it. Not having an option just because it always starts a fight. And here's said fight right now. And no, I will not engage in a point by point fight with that again. Because, yeah... "Not again..." We did this argument. Repeatedly. And unless we get a dev-sanctioned thread about just that, because all of this is pretty much one line spiraling out of control in a more general thread about powers, I really don't feel like doing that song and dance today.
(As an aside, a dev-sanctioned "Knockback discussions go here!" thread would probably be nice right about now, if you want to kick that hornet's nest. At least to keep this thread about all the powers, instead of just these few.)
My greatest worry for this is not a mechanics issue, I'm sure that part won't be much trouble, it's the community issue that worries me. Do you want a friendly community like City of Heroes, or do you want a community where people come running in to shout down those who dare play the game in a way they consider sub-optimal? Because as you can see, you're getting that. Except you went and implemented it in the game as a feature. Why would you ever do that?
Let designated knockback powers be pure knockback, no toggle, no alternate. Let powers with incidental knockback be knockdown. No toggle, no alternate. Using knockback at a poor time is no worse than a tank pulling AoE spamming foes into the group or an AoE Immobilize that's used at the wrong time. I've probably died more to either of those in CoH than any type of knockback errors combined, but those don't get multi-page fights on the forums.
Otherwise... you get this. Do you want this in the game? I don't. I just want to play the game, not argue about my powers with every melee teammate I run into. But as long as KB/KD alt-fire exists... that fight will come. Over and over and over. Unless you conform to the One True Way of Melee. Please consider the community aspects of power designs more than you're already doing. I doubt any amount of power design can truly quell the knockback haters, but at least don't encourage this argument in-game!

OK, at first I only suspected you had relatively little experience with keybinding back in CoH and weren't really sure what we were trying to tell you here. Now it's clear you either have absolutely no idea what it is or you're just blindly waving off that trivially simple "solution" to this problem to continue your one-man crusade fueled by all the butt-hurt you still apparently maintain over the whole silly "people hate Knockback" issue from CoH.

It appears the Devs of CoT have come up with a clever way to render the entire debate over whether Knockback was good or bad ENTIRELY MOOT yet here you are desperately trying to keep all that angst swirling. It's one thing to defiantly piss in the wind when there's no solution to a cause you care deeply about but to scream and yell about a change/feature that's actually going to REMOVE the problem completely is laughable at best.

OK, at first I only suspected you had relatively little experience with keybinding back in CoH and weren't really sure what we were trying to tell you here. Now it's clear you either have absolutely no idea what it is or you're just blindly waving off that trivially simple "solution" to this problem to continue your one-man crusade fueled by all the butt-hurt you still apparently maintain over the whole silly "people hate Knockback" issue from CoH.
It appears the Devs of CoT have come up with a clever way to render the entire debate over whether Knockback was good or bad ENTIRELY MOOT yet here you are desperately trying to keep all that angst swirling. It's one thing to defiantly piss in the wind when there's no solution to a cause you care deeply about but to scream and yell about a change/feature that's actually going to REMOVE the problem completely is laughable at best.

Thank you for keeping on demonstrating my point. This is what this option causes. This is the future of City of Titans with this option. The option does not solve the actual problem, it merely puts a bandage on an open fracture. It looks nice, but it solves nothing and only makes things worse in the long term.

And thank you so much for the personal attacks. I suppose when you have no point, you go for the man, not the issue.

The issue being "This will cause fights over knockback between people who like it and people who hate it." to which the response is to start said fight. I wasn't even talking to you or Redlynne, but you decided to jump me anyway for daring to speak up. I really couldn't have asked for a better example. You are proving my point spectacularly right now. (The winning move would have been to let the devs speak for themselves, not start the fight all over again.)

And my question to Tannim remains: "Is this what you want in-game?" Because as is, this is what you'll get.

The issue being "This will cause fights over knockback between people who like it and people who hate it."

Which will remain regardless of if MWM make it choosable or not. At least with MWM's system people can choose the effect itself instead of having to forgo using certain powers at all if they do not want to annoy others.

However since you seem to think you know so much about this then please tell us an actual solution to the problem instead of just saying that they shouldn't even try to reduce it, because I have a very hard time seeing how CoH's implementation would generate less arguments in-game and on forums than CoT's.

As Radiac said, there will always be people who will find something to complain about.

Mcnum, for what it is worth I understand the cause for concern over new mechanics.
You said two things about knock back:
1. It being used defensively
2. It being used tactically for positioning
For number 1 - knock down and back are equivalent in terms of defensive use in our game. They provide equivalanet timings for time the target is knocked.
For number 2 - this is still an option it is not taken away.
You said a third thing:
3. This causes tension between players.
It always has. This is not new. History is clear on this, there were huge theeads, plenty of complaints,
Now the agency is up to the individual player how to decide to play. People can learn to use which effect is best for the situation.
To everyone else - please try to be understanding. There is no reason to talk down to someone else about their opinion.
Also - yes this alternate activation mechanic is something we can look to apply in other ways for the future. We are using it for knock down/back as a stsrting point.
If it is ever used elsewhere, the change will always have to be equivalanet in effect. No changing the nature of the power such as single target to aoe.

Thank you. For pretty much the explanation and for the reminder not to talk down to people. I swear, knockback discussions just being out some venom in people... and I'm not going to pretend to be innocent there.

I will happily admit that even in CoH, there are times where you should definitely NOT use knockback. Which was a bit a problem when your AoE blasts were Energy Torrent and... I forget the name of the energy AoE. I actually used Repulsion Bomb instead since that did knockdown. I know, hypocrite, right? Maybe, but when it came to single target knockback or PBAoE knockback like Hurricane, I was an artist. And yet people still complained when I delivered a pesky boss right at the Scrapper's feet because that's a thing you could do with flight, knockback and practice.

As for alternate fire mode, could you make it a rule of thumb that if the entire point of a power is to do knockback, that's the default and you alt-fire to knock in place? Because a power like Force Bolt is a panic button. It needs to be panic friendly. A "GET AWAY FROM ME!" button. If it does something else and also knockback, eh, make the default knockdown. Most of those powers in CoH were... not all that great. Knockback on purpose is amazing. ...randomly on other powers? Not quite as much.

Also, just to go on a tangent back towards the thread's actual topic. Could snipes get an alt-fire of just not charging it? It'd rarely be used, sure, but for when you just want to fire a weaker snipe, but don't feel like moving to break it. Or if you're under a DoT and just want to fire anyway. Hm, maybe have right click on Teleport be an Undo Teleport action, too. Like you teleport back to where you last teleported from, within range, of course.

Alt-fire on powers does have potential, it was just a... let's say brave choice to use this as the leading example.

Radiac wrote:
Question: Can I make a "knockback version" of a power as a macro button in my power tray, for those of us who are Power Tray Button mouse clickers?
Tannim said that right-clicking in power tray uses alt-effect. But even so I expect to be able to make macros to place in the power tray so that I can choose to use the alt-effect as standard.
My guess is that this mechanic of alt-effects is not limited to just the knockdown-knockback combo.

Oh, no, it is very much not limited to just that.

It is not "you hold down a key and click" as an option, it really is limited to right click / left click. The idea originated not with knockback, but in snipes. Left-click, a snipe power is a normal power. Right click, it's a snipe, with the rooting requirement, longer range, and stronger punch.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

This is a question of choice vs no choice. And not just in the pretend world of video games but in real life as well we demand more choices more options. So Mcnum please help me to understand how this is bad for the game. Seriously this is not and attack from me. I dont know you and have no reason to be mean or rude.But the fact that you can still play the game the way YOU want to play and that others can play how THEY choose seems amazing. Even in CoX there were debates about more than just KB vs KD. There were those who had to have a healer for TF or it would be OMGFAILZZZ. Or those who thought tanks had to herd ALWAYS. Or that you had to have a Rad debuffer for the ITF and on and on and on. Yet many a fun game play session most had because they just found others who didnt care one way or the other and just played.

The point is no matter what is done everyone will NEVER agree completely on gameplay tactics. So just play the game the way YOU want and I guarantee you will find others to play with who will enjoy your style and have a ton of fun in game. I actually hope that I get to play with you in game someday. Just my thoughts.

Could snipes get an alt-fire of just not charging it? It'd rarely be used, sure, but for when you just want to fire a weaker snipe, but don't feel like moving to break it. Or if you're under a DoT and just want to fire anyway.

Lobotomize (snipe attack) description:This snipe attack does strong exotic damage and can hold the enemy for a brief duration. Passively charging this ability by remaining affected while not moving during its activation cycle increases the damage up to extreme. Any interruption will cause the snipe to fire off at its current charge level Any target already affected by a control effect will take additional damage. Recharge Very Fast.

I read that as that you can use it while moving and/or under attack but it fire at its minimum potential. If you want maximum potential then you need to stand still and not take damage.

Tannim222 wrote:
Mcnum, for what it is worth I understand the cause for concern over new mechanics.
You said two things about knock back:
1. It being used defensively
2. It being used tactically for positioning
For number 1 - knock down and back are equivalent in terms of defensive use in our game. They provide equivalanet timings for time the target is knocked.
For number 2 - this is still an option it is not taken away.
You said a third thing:
3. This causes tension between players.
It always has. This is not new. History is clear on this, there were huge theeads, plenty of complaints,
Now the agency is up to the individual player how to decide to play. People can learn to use which effect is best for the situation.
To everyone else - please try to be understanding. There is no reason to talk down to someone else about their opinion.
Also - yes this alternate activation mechanic is something we can look to apply in other ways for the future. We are using it for knock down/back as a stsrting point.
If it is ever used elsewhere, the change will always have to be equivalanet in effect. No changing the nature of the power such as single target to aoe.
Thank you. For pretty much the explanation and for the reminder not to talk down to people. I swear, knockback discussions just being out some venom in people... and I'm not going to pretend to be innocent there.
I will happily admit that even in CoH, there are times where you should definitely NOT use knockback. Which was a bit a problem when your AoE blasts were Energy Torrent and... I forget the name of the energy AoE. I actually used Repulsion Bomb instead since that did knockdown. I know, hypocrite, right? Maybe, but when it came to single target knockback or PBAoE knockback like Hurricane, I was an artist. And yet people still complained when I delivered a pesky boss right at the Scrapper's feet because that's a thing you could do with flight, knockback and practice.
As for alternate fire mode, could you make it a rule of thumb that if the entire point of a power is to do knockback, that's the default and you alt-fire to knock in place? Because a power like Force Bolt is a panic button. It needs to be panic friendly. A "GET AWAY FROM ME!" button. If it does something else and also knockback, eh, make the default knockdown. Most of those powers in CoH were... not all that great. Knockback on purpose is amazing. ...randomly on other powers? Not quite as much.
Also, just to go on a tangent back towards the thread's actual topic. Could snipes get an alt-fire of just not charging it? It'd rarely be used, sure, but for when you just want to fire a weaker snipe, but don't feel like moving to break it. Or if you're under a DoT and just want to fire anyway. Hm, maybe have right click on Teleport be an Undo Teleport action, too. Like you teleport back to where you last teleported from, within range, of course.
Alt-fire on powers does have potential, it was just a... let's say brave choice to use this as the leading example.

As a rule of thumb, if something calls for knockback, its main actication mode is knockdown.

You mentioned hurricane - this isn't a knockback effect, it is a Repel effect. They are distinctly different. Repel pushes back, the target can still take action, and generally more controllable by a player than the expedient nature of knock back.

Orignally, the alt-fire was discussed for snipes as doc explained. The reason why we don't do that - see my previous post.

Any alternate-fire activations have to provide an equivalanet effect to the main acrication.

Game play wise you are still using a simple activation method, and the effect chsnge should avoid imbalance issues.

we can't use "press and hold" the button to charge either. It doesn't work with our combat system.

The Passive-Charging by standing still to buld up was the compromise solution. You can fire while on the move for an extreme range attack, stand still and don't get hit to build up you snipe. If it gets interrupted, it will fire off at its current charged rate.

—

I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic - Tech Team.

This is a question of choice vs no choice. And not just in the pretend world of video games but in real life as well we demand more choices more options. So Mcnum please help me to understand how this is bad for the game. Seriously this is not and attack from me. I dont know you and have no reason to be mean or rude.But the fact that you can still play the game the way YOU want to play and that others can play how THEY choose seems amazing. Even in CoX there were debates about more than just KB vs KD. There were those who had to have a healer for TF or it would be OMGFAILZZZ. Or those who thought tanks had to herd ALWAYS. Or that you had to have a Rad debuffer for the ITF and on and on and on. Yet many a fun game play session most had because they just found others who didnt care one way or the other and just played.
The point is no matter what is done everyone will NEVER agree completely on gameplay tactics. So just play the game the way YOU want and I guarantee you will find others to play with who will enjoy your style and have a ton of fun in game. I actually hope that I get to play with you in game someday. Just my thoughts.

Eh, don't get me started on tank herding. If you think I have opinions on knockback, you haven't seen me talk about herding.

Anyway, to break down why this worries me, it's because as much as the old City of Heroes forums loved a good knockback fight, by which I mean a discussion more volatile that any PVP argument, most of that was contained there. On the forums. Sure, some people would not be entirely on board when you showed up with a Storm Summoner, but once you demonstrated that, yeah, you knew when to advance and use Hurricane offensively, and when to just be a safe zone for the ranged heroes, things usually went fine. The most trouble I've had in-game was times where, yeah, I could see how that just didn't work. There is a time and a place for Force Bubble. Most times aren't it. Those that are defines the strategies for an entire raid. I never had much trouble about it in game, seems like a lot of people had a "You knock it, you kill it" thing going. Which was also my policy when playing melee. There's always another target closer by when you're Scrappin' it up in the pile of foes.

But I worry about this more now because of the alt-fire. Because while having to swap characters because someone doesn't know how to play along with the glory that was Storm Summoning took long enough that people usually just went "Eh, let's just go with it.", the act of using a different fire mode for your powers is much lesser. And thus, easier to demand. And thus... it will be demanded by players with little ability to adapt. Or little wish to adapt. Or just in general because that's a thing someone did and now we all do it. And thus, knockback as a whole is essentially eliminated from team play unless you want to be blacklisted.

That's my worry. Not that I won't be able to kick someone off a roof. Pretty sure there'll be a knockback melee power that I can flavor as a kick if that's my thing. And I probably will on some character. I worry about the social aspect of silently killing knockback more than of any mechanical issue. And about the volatile forum arguments about knockback (see above for recent example) leaking into the game proper. They're not fun here, and they're not fun in-game, perhaps even more so if you have a character built around it.

As for the whole keybinds and macros thing. I can deal with that. If it's any less than binding all my travel powers to one context sensitive key in CoH, it's no problem. Or Numpad Masterminding.

And thank you so much for the personal attacks. I suppose when you have no point, you go for the man, not the issue.

I suppose when the "man" in question is being absolutely intransigent and oblivious to his own stupidity on a given subject the only thing left to do is point out how bone-headed he's actually being. What you're doing here by stirring up some kind of holy crusade related to the asinine knockback quibble is the very definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.

McNum wrote:

Thank you. For pretty much the explanation and for the reminder not to talk down to people. I swear, knockback discussions just being out some venom in people... and I'm not going to pretend to be innocent there.

I'll at least agree that you're the only one here "guilty" of throwing a hissy-fit over something that you yourself want to scream about. You're the only one who brought up the "knockback discussion" here and clearly you're so worked up about it you can't see the forest for the trees over this.

The only "point" we keep demonstrating here is that you're apparently so blinded by you're love of being persecuted for being a champion of knockback that you're unwilling to accept that CoT is introducing a feature that's making the whole controversy you're desperately trying to keep going ABSOLUTELY MOOT.

You like Knockback. Have fun with that.
You find a team that likes you using Knockback. Have fun with that.
You find a team that hates you using Knockback. Now that's YOUR FAULT, not your powerset's... Too bad.

Get over yourself with all this nonsense about "knockback is dead" or "this will START fights about it". The only thing this will do is let people who want to play with it do so and STOP fights over it.

McNum wrote:

And my question to Tannim remains: "Is this what you want in-game?" Because as is, this is what you'll get.

All he's got so far is one person trying to spit into the wind over a complete NON-ISSUE. I think we can all collectively survive this...

Radiac wrote:
Are all the Snipe attacks going to have a "remain affected to build-up damage" function? Me likey.
Yup. And that's not all either. Hint, take a look at Vampiric Blast...

"Reaper’s Edge (tier 9): You attack all enemies within a very wide cone area doing very strong exotic damage, cause a light debuff to their awareness and medial damage over time. You will receive a light heal should any enemy be defeated by this attack within range. Passively charging this ability by avoiding being hit and not moving during its activation cycle increases the damage to extreme, increases the chance to score a critical hit, and healing gained from defeated enemies. Any interruption will cause Reaper’s Edge to fire off at its current charge level. Recharge Extremely Long."

VERY WIDE cone area? AAAND "hold down button to build up strength? WOW.

Also, is it possible to make "you got interrupted while building up strength" a thing that would cause you to miss more often? Like, if I'm lining up a shot with a sniper rifle and someone interrupts me, I might miss because of that. Or is that too hard to code?

Tannim222 wrote:
Radiac wrote:
Are all the Snipe attacks going to have a "remain affected to build-up damage" function? Me likey.
Yup. And that's not all either. Hint, take a look at Vampiric Blast...
"Reaper’s Edge (tier 9): You attack all enemies within a very wide cone area doing very strong exotic damage, cause a light debuff to their awareness and medial damage over time. You will receive a light heal should any enemy be defeated by this attack within range. Passively charging this ability by avoiding being hit and not moving during its activation cycle increases the damage to extreme, increases the chance to score a critical hit, and healing gained from defeated enemies. Any interruption will cause Reaper’s Edge to fire off at its current charge level. Recharge Extremely Long."
VERY WIDE cone area? AAAND "hold down button to build up strength? WOW.
Also, is it possible to make "you got interrupted while building up strength" a thing that would cause you to miss more often? Like, if I'm lining up a shot with a sniper rifle and someone interrupts me, I might miss because of that. Or is that too hard to code?

No, cannot hold down buttons for added effect. One of the limits to power design which aesthetic decoupling forced.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Eh, don't get me started on tank herding. If you think I have opinions on knockback, you haven't seen me talk about herding.
Anyway, to break down why this worries me, it's because as much as the old City of Heroes forums loved a good knockback fight, by which I mean a discussion more volatile that any PVP argument, most of that was contained there. On the forums. Sure, some people would not be entirely on board when you showed up with a Storm Summoner, but once you demonstrated that, yeah, you knew when to advance and use Hurricane offensively, and when to just be a safe zone for the ranged heroes, things usually went fine. The most trouble I've had in-game was times where, yeah, I could see how that just didn't work. There is a time and a place for Force Bubble. Most times aren't it. Those that are defines the strategies for an entire raid. I never had much trouble about it in game, seems like a lot of people had a "You knock it, you kill it" thing going. Which was also my policy when playing melee. There's always another target closer by when you're Scrappin' it up in the pile of foes.
But I worry about this more now because of the alt-fire. Because while having to swap characters because someone doesn't know how to play along with the glory that was Storm Summoning took long enough that people usually just went "Eh, let's just go with it.", the act of using a different fire mode for your powers is much lesser. And thus, easier to demand. And thus... it will be demanded by players with little ability to adapt. Or little wish to adapt. Or just in general because that's a thing someone did and now we all do it. And thus, knockback as a whole is essentially eliminated from team play unless you want to be blacklisted.
That's my worry. Not that I won't be able to kick someone off a roof. Pretty sure there'll be a knockback melee power that I can flavor as a kick if that's my thing. And I probably will on some character. I worry about the social aspect of silently killing knockback more than of any mechanical issue. And about the volatile forum arguments about knockback (see above for recent example) leaking into the game proper. They're not fun here, and they're not fun in-game, perhaps even more so if you have a character built around it.
As for the whole keybinds and macros thing. I can deal with that. If it's any less than binding all my travel powers to one context sensitive key in CoH, it's no problem. Or Numpad Masterminding.

If you had started out with this level of detail on why you thought it would be bad then I'm sure you would have gotten more thought out replies, but as your initial posts could essentially be summed up as "It's bad, it'll create arguments so don't do it" you got the replies you got.

Now you says that people (most of them?) learned to live with KB and even see them as beneficial when done by someone who had demonstrated that they knew how and when to use them, so why do you think that won't happen in CoT?

I'm sure that the community at large won't chew someone head off just for using KB but rather for using them badly, and most often repeatedly so. Bad players will be recognized as bad players regardless of what powers and/or effects they use while good players will be recognized as good players regardless of what powers and/or effects they use.

Guys, look. The KB argument, which I have participated in, is basically over and we're just fighting with each other because we all want to have the last word or something. We're all on these forums as much as we are because we like to hear ourselves type. I myself go back and reread MY OWN posts a lot just because I enjoy hearing my own arguments again. This one's over and frankly it was never a thing we could effect in the first place. The Devs designed it the way they want it designed and not everyone's 100% happy about the design. Welcome to real world, everyone. Nothing to see here. These aren't the droids we're looking for. Let's move along.

Tannim222 wrote:
Radiac wrote:
Are all the Snipe attacks going to have a "remain affected to build-up damage" function? Me likey.
Yup. And that's not all either. Hint, take a look at Vampiric Blast...
"Reaper’s Edge (tier 9): You attack all enemies within a very wide cone area doing very strong exotic damage, cause a light debuff to their awareness and medial damage over time. You will receive a light heal should any enemy be defeated by this attack within range. Passively charging this ability by avoiding being hit and not moving during its activation cycle increases the damage to extreme, increases the chance to score a critical hit, and healing gained from defeated enemies. Any interruption will cause Reaper’s Edge to fire off at its current charge level. Recharge Extremely Long."
VERY WIDE cone area? AAAND "hold down button to build up strength? WOW.
Also, is it possible to make "you got interrupted while building up strength" a thing that would cause you to miss more often? Like, if I'm lining up a shot with a sniper rifle and someone interrupts me, I might miss because of that. Or is that too hard to code?

Not and...there is no hold the button to charge mechanic.

It is possible to add a increase to Miss on interrupt, but unnecessary. The mechanic already included a puitive measure for being hit, forcing you to fire off early not getting the full damage of the hit.

—

I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic - Tech Team.

If we're not holding down the button to build up the effects, then how does one "remain affected to build strength"? Does that happen automatically? Is it like the snipes in CoX where you always get the long, interruptible version and then the new wrinkle is that if you get interrupted, you still get the shot off, but you get less damage?

No, cannot hold down buttons for added effect. One of the limits to power design which aesthetic decoupling forced.

Let me expand on this a moment.

When you activate a power, be it through clicking or hotkey, you activate two separate systems simultaneously. The gameplay system, and the animation system. They each run independently, not communicating otherwise. This means that click-and-hold does not work, because that would require tightly coupling the two, so as to change the animation as the gameplay itself changes. This would add a lot of complexity to the aesthetic decoupling, and force us to limit how flexible it can be. We opted for more flexibility on this end, which forces a reduction in flexibility elsewhere.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

If we're not holding down the button to build up the effects, then how does one "remain affected to build strength"? Does that happen automatically? Is it like the snipes in CoX where you always get the long, interruptible version and then the new wrinkle is that if you get interrupted, you still get the shot off, but you get less damage?

It's automatic, built into the gameplay engine itself. You'd have the same animation either way, however.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

On knockback/down, I have to agree it was a problem in CoH. KB in powers like force bolt or gale was fine, quite useful in fact, since they were reliable and served that particular purpose. In something like energy torrent it was an enormous PITA because it was an AoE with a 60% chance, so it tended to scatter everything to the winds. You could sometimes take advantage of or contain the issue using hover, or walls, or -kb effects, or what have you, but on the whole it was very annoying to have to cause havoc with your bread-and-butter attacks. So I for one am quite happy with the proposed solution. We've had hints of something like it for a long time, so it's certainly no surprise.

If we're not holding down the button to build up the effects, then how does one "remain affected to build strength"? Does that happen automatically? Is it like the snipes in CoX where you always get the long, interruptible version and then the new wrinkle is that if you get interrupted, you still get the shot off, but you get less damage?

Pretty much how I read it, yes.

Only effective difference to CoH snipes is that instead of loosing the entire attack on interruption you only loose the remaining part of the "charge-up".

Radiac wrote:
If we're not holding down the button to build up the effects, then how does one "remain affected to build strength"? Does that happen automatically? Is it like the snipes in CoX where you always get the long, interruptible version and then the new wrinkle is that if you get interrupted, you still get the shot off, but you get less damage?
Pretty much how I read it, yes.
Only effective difference to CoH snipes is that instead of loosing the entire attack on interruption you only loose the remaining part of the "charge-up".

Right. You'd have the same animation go off, but the game mechanics would throw up an "Interrupted" notification of some kind to let you know that you did not get the Snipe off

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

"Atrophic Scythe (tier 8): Activated with a timed toggle, this ability causes strong energy damage over time in a medial cone area which can be repositioned as you move to affect more targets leaving them taking medial energy damage over time. Recharge Medial. "

So I can activate this power to turn on "people in the cone get hit for strong DoT" then MOVE AROUND, dragging the cone area around with me, in order to "lawn mower" as many targets as possible, right? So you activate, turn the cone to face, say, east, then run north to hit as many targets as you can while the cone is active? That sounds BONKERS powerful in a densely populated map. Probably get's me killed by the aggro, but still...

Edit: Question: Can the damage cone effect be pointed in a direction independant of which way I'm currently facing, or does it always point "forward" relative to my current facing?

OH! Also, do the targets that get hit take a single hit that does residual DoT to them even after they leave the area, like a single hit with a lingering after-burn, or do they only take damage while in the AoE, like a series of small independent hits? I assume the latter, but it could be the former, which is why I ask.

So I can activate this power to turn on "people in the cone get hit for strong DoT" then MOVE AROUND, dragging the cone area around with me, in order to "lawn mower" as many targets as possible, right? So you activate, turn the cone to face, say, east, then run north to hit as many targets as you can while the cone is active? That sounds BONKERS powerful in a densely populated map. Probably get's me killed by the aggro, but still...

Death Blossom would be a tier 9 though, so probably that's what the T9 does. I mean, I now want that as my T9 is what I'm saying. Anything short of "fire all of your guns at once and explode into space" would be a disappointment now. :)

OH! Also, if I leave the cone where it is, like just to keep it on the boss or giant monster, etc, does that target get hit more by virtue of me leaving the cone where it is, or does it take the same damage once hit whether I move around or not? I guess this is the same as the last question. Well, if the answer is "DoT only happens to thing while they're in the AoE" then it is, if not then more clarification is needed. Thanks. I can barely type these questions, I'm so excited now.

Death Blossom would be a tier 9 though, so probably that's what the T9 does. I mean, I now want that as my T9 is what I'm saying. Anything short of "fire all of your guns at once and explode into space" would be a disappointment now. :)

Tannim222 wrote:

Think of it as a flame thrower - you point in the direction you want to attack and fire away.

As long as MWM doesn't use 1984 era computer graphics to implement their version of it we'll probably be good.

Radiac wrote:
Death Blossom would be a tier 9 though, so probably that's what the T9 does. I mean, I now want that as my T9 is what I'm saying. Anything short of "fire all of your guns at once and explode into space" would be a disappointment now. :)
Tannim222 wrote:
Think of it as a flame thrower - you point in the direction you want to attack and fire away.
As long as MWM doesn't use 1984 era computer graphics to implement their version of it we'll probably be good.

I would be interested in a retro computer graphics pack in glorious giant pixels and 16 (at most!) colors add-on if it's not in the base game. Especially if it comes with a set of PC Speaker sound effects.

If I'm able to walk and strafe and so forth with the "flamethrower" power active, how do I rotate the direction of the "flamethrower" as I move? Does it always point the middle of the damage cone at the mouse cursor? Can I stand in one place and wiggle the mouse to make the cone damage effect raster back and forth, like a guy spraying water on a hedge with a hose? Does the target, once damaged by the effect, end up taking only that damage which was assessed while it was in the cone, or is there residual DoT to things that have been hit, like as if they caught on fire and are now burning? It mentions "strong damage" and "medial damage" in different places in the description, so I'm trying to make sense of that.

blacke4dawn wrote:
Don't think it would be that bad as one option among many.
I would be interested in a retro computer graphics pack in glorious giant pixels and 16 (at most!) colors add-on if it's not in the base game. Especially if it comes with a set of PC Speaker sound effects.

*cough*Aesthetic Decoupling*cough*

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

blacke4dawn wrote:
Don't think it would be that bad as one option among many.
I would be interested in a retro computer graphics pack in glorious giant pixels and 16 (at most!) colors add-on if it's not in the base game. Especially if it comes with a set of PC Speaker sound effects.

Actually might make for a fun aesthetic power choice for a "digital" based super called "Virtual Boy" or something less already-copyrighted.

Attacks can then have an 8-bit sound. Or even go all out and have them distort the BGM to be 8-bit for a few seconds :D

You could make a "Video Man" toon! That was an episode of the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends show back in my childhood. It also reminds me of a thing from a Terry Pratchett book. In "Thief of Time", the author describes yetis and mentions that they're so hard to spot and capture because they have a superpower akin to being able to save their current position in life and reload from earlier saved positions later. So if they round a corner and you see them, they just reload their life and choose NOT to round that corner the next time. He explains that they don't have infinite saves though.

You could make a "Video Man" toon! That was an episode of the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends show back in my childhood. It also reminds me of a thing from a Terry Pratchett book. In "Thief of Time", the author describes yetis and mentions that they're so hard to spot and capture because they have a superpower akin to being able to save their current position in life and reload from earlier saved positions later. So if they round a corner and you see them, they just reload their life and choose NOT to round that corner the next time. He explains that they don't have infinite saves though.

As one of my personal literary heroes, Terry Pratchett's passing last year was an incredibly hard hit.

Think of it as a flame thrower - you point in the direction you want to attack and fire away.

Sounds like CO’s Plasma Beam, from the Power Armor set. A straight-line cylinder attack that damaged everything in its path up to a certain range. If you had a target selected, it fired on a line from the player character to the target, but if no target was selected, it would still fire straight ahead. Unfortunately, an engine flaw meant that it only fired parallel to the surface the player character was standing on. Any mob flying high enough above that plane to be out of the cylinder wouldn’t take any damage, even if it was targeted or you pitched the camera up to center it in view.

(It made the Mk. XLI boss in Cislunar Mechanon a serious pain in the buttocks, especially solo. You had to constantly adjust your “altitude” in a vertically-oriented room in a fake zero-g environment that still had a strictly defined “floor”. And don’t get me started on the hitbox/camera conflicts along the “ceiling” that could reset the whole encounter. I guess clever hacks are still hacks, is what I’m saying. But I digress.)

Since CoT’s targeting is generally looser than CO’s, I’m now wondering: Will spray’n’pray attacks like this follow the camera vertically for flying mobs, or at least follow tab-targets above the ground plane?

Think of it as a flame thrower - you point in the direction you want to attack and fire away.

This tells us how to use it, but does not eliminate alternative interpretations for what it does.

For the duration of the Power:

Targets in the VoE are periodically hit by single attacks that do Direct Damage (once each). Keep targets in the VoE to keep doing damage to them.

Targets in the VoE are periodically hit by single attacks that do Damage over Time (does not stack). Keep targets in the VoE to keep refreshing the DoT duration to deal more damage to them, but they'll still take damage (for a short time) after leaving the VoE.

Targets in the VoE are periodically hit by single attacks that do Damage over Time (and they stack). Keep targets in the VoE for as long as possible to generate the deepest stack of DoTs on the targets to produce maximum damage.

VoE is Volume of Effect, rather than AoE, due to the 3D vs 2D nature of what we're talking about. I prefer the term VoE because it more precisely/accurately describes the geometric "shapes" the effects can take (sphere, cone, cylinder ... as opposed to circle, triangle, rectangle).

So with respect to the flame thrower analogy, do we just splash them quickly and move on ... or do we keep hosing them down continuously?

—

Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

I had a hero in CoX named Digital Man who was a stone/stone tank, changed the aesthetic to crystal, made it green and black. Ended up looking like wire frame models. I am all for 8-bit/digital power aesthetics. Maybe I'll make the super heroine Gamer Girl!

Tannim222 wrote:
Think of it as a flame thrower - you point in the direction you want to attack and fire away.
This tells us how to use it, but does not eliminate alternative interpretations for what it does.
For the duration of the Power:Targets in the VoE are periodically hit by single attacks that do Direct Damage (once each). Keep targets in the VoE to keep doing damage to them.
Targets in the VoE are periodically hit by single attacks that do Damage over Time (does not stack). Keep targets in the VoE to keep refreshing the DoT duration to deal more damage to them, but they'll still take damage (for a short time) after leaving the VoE.
Targets in the VoE are periodically hit by single attacks that do Damage over Time (and they stack). Keep targets in the VoE for as long as possible to generate the deepest stack of DoTs on the targets to produce maximum damage.
VoE is Volume of Effect, rather than AoE, due to the 3D vs 2D nature of what we're talking about. I prefer the term VoE because it more precisely/accurately describes the geometric "shapes" the effects can take (sphere, cone, cylinder ... as opposed to circle, triangle, rectangle).
So with respect to the flame thrower analogy, do we just splash them quickly and move on ... or do we keep hosing them down continuously?

we don't use VoE as any form of terminology internally or otherwise, area implies volume, and is a common, industry standard term that everyone readily knows. Hence I will not be using it in discussions with people.

It is a continuous damage over time attack within the area of effect and leaves a damage over time effect on any affected targets.

—

I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic - Tech Team.

It would be interesting to see the alt click feature used for AoE's etc to turn say a AoE from a Circle to a Tear etc or even see it featured with say an attack that has a burst that spreads itself to different opponents on a right click but on the left click hits one etc.

If we're not holding down the button to build up the effects, then how does one "remain affected to build strength"? Does that happen automatically? Is it like the snipes in CoX where you always get the long, interruptible version and then the new wrinkle is that if you get interrupted, you still get the shot off, but you get less damage?

Pretty much how I read it, yes.
Only effective difference to CoH snipes is that instead of loosing the entire attack on interruption you only loose the remaining part of the "charge-up".

Right. You'd have the same animation go off, but the game mechanics would throw up an "Interrupted" notification of some kind to let you know that you did not get the Snipe off

I really don't like this at all.

If snipe is a three second cast, and you get interrupted 0.5 seconds into it, I don't want to stand there for another 2.5 seconds waiting for the animation to finish before I can do anything else. And if moving ourselves also counts as an interruption, that's even worse. Because I can't tell you how many times I get into a long-cast-time power and have to move to avoid a big telegraphed attack. Not only would that look absolutely horrible to be moving while the snipe animation is still happening, but I would not be able to pop a heal or any other emergency instant-cast ability until the animation has completed.

There really should be a way to interrupt the animation when the ability is interrupted.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Huck, I might be misunderstanding, but I don't think he's saying you have to wait for the full animation. I read that as him saying the "release" animation goes off if you're interrupted. It's weaker, but you're not gliding around in the "snipe charging" pose. The "gun" goes off when you're interrupted or at the end of the charge, whichever comes first.

Very pleased by the alternate activations info; offering us powers with an automatic or player-driven ability to respond to the situation is great (snipes, movable cones, knock type adjustment)... more customization options and combat skills that I will use.

I prefer to press keys to activate powers from my trays, so I'm hoping for a convenient way to individually set each of the powers in the trays to fire my preferred default activation via some setting on the powers screen or at the time I place the power in a tray. I like to use shift-#, alt-#, and ctrl-# for powers in tray 2, 3, and 4. I guess I'd:
> right-click the power's icon if I want the alternate activation (for rarely-used alternates)
> place the alternate version in another tray slot (for frequently-used alternates)
> keybind the alternate version (for frequently-used alternates), depending on what key combinations we're allowed to bind to
...since I'd already be using shift to denote tray 2, rather than as a modifier to denote alternate activation.

Tannim222 wrote:

Defense reduces damage by a percentage based on the style of the attack, not the damage type of the attack. Defense is limited to defending against damage, debuffs, or controls by way of melee, ranged, and aoe.

If defense not only reduces damage, but reduces the magnitude and/or duration of debuffs and controls, that could offer a new mechanic. It will be interesting to see more info in a future update regarding how we can counteract incoming controls, that is, what passive and active powers or augments will help us to reduce the duration and magnitude of them, will some Protection set powers offer immunity to a limited number of "stacks" of certain types of control, will melee folks (especially sneaky characters) have inherent or situational powers to counter PBAoE and location AoE controls that would otherwise ruin their feeling of being super, etc.

The animation continues after cancelled by movement or being hit. It can be cancelled by activating another power.

Would we have to wait for the whole three second animation to even get the weakened interrupted effect? Or would the interrupted effect happen immediately when the interruption happened, allowing us to proceed with activating another action? Does this mean that once we get the notice that an animation has been interrupted, we will be able to animation cancel?

Because if I activate snipe and 0.5 seconds later I get interrupted and a weakened version is now the effect of the interruption, I would like that weakened version to happen at the 0.5 second mark and not after the full three seconds.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Doctor Tyche wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Radiac wrote:
If we're not holding down the button to build up the effects, then how does one "remain affected to build strength"? Does that happen automatically? Is it like the snipes in CoX where you always get the long, interruptible version and then the new wrinkle is that if you get interrupted, you still get the shot off, but you get less damage?
Pretty much how I read it, yes.
Only effective difference to CoH snipes is that instead of loosing the entire attack on interruption you only loose the remaining part of the "charge-up".
Right. You'd have the same animation go off, but the game mechanics would throw up an "Interrupted" notification of some kind to let you know that you did not get the Snipe off
I really don't like this at all.
If snipe is a three second cast, and you get interrupted 0.5 seconds into it, I don't want to stand there for another 2.5 seconds waiting for the animation to finish before I can do anything else. And if moving ourselves also counts as an interruption, that's even worse. Because I can't tell you how many times I get into a long-cast-time power and have to move to avoid a big telegraphed attack. Not only would that look absolutely horrible to be moving while the snipe animation is still happening, but I would not be able to pop a heal or any other emergency instant-cast ability until the animation has completed.
There really should be a way to interrupt the animation when the ability is interrupted.

There's still an interruption mechanism for the animation. I only meant you couldn't have the power be different between it being a snipe vs not snipe, or knockback vs not knockback.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Huck, I might be misunderstanding, but I don't think he's saying you have to wait for the full animation. I read that as him saying the "release" animation goes off if you're interrupted. It's weaker, but you're not gliding around in the "snipe charging" pose. The "gun" goes off when you're interrupted or at the end of the charge, whichever comes first.
Maybe I misread that though.

I am also hoping for that result. Maybe we'll just have to see it in action, though...I'm not getting a clear understanding of what will happen from the text descriptions (or the attempts to clarify) so far.

I really don't like this at all.
If snipe is a three second cast, and you get interrupted 0.5 seconds into it, I don't want to stand there for another 2.5 seconds waiting for the animation to finish before I can do anything else. And if moving ourselves also counts as an interruption, that's even worse. Because I can't tell you how many times I get into a long-cast-time power and have to move to avoid a big telegraphed attack. Not only would that look absolutely horrible to be moving while the snipe animation is still happening, but I would not be able to pop a heal or any other emergency instant-cast ability until the animation has completed.
There really should be a way to interrupt the animation when the ability is interrupted.

There's still an interruption mechanism for the animation. I only meant you couldn't have the power be different between it being a snipe vs not snipe, or knockback vs not knockback.

Understood. That makes much more sense.

But now I don't understand the reason for not using a hold-down to charge option. It seems that since you will have an interruption mechanism for animations, why not let the same interruption mechanism occur when a button is released? Is it because of a latency/queries-per-second issue that you don't want to flood the system with assurances that the button continues to be depressed until it is not? I can understand that reasoning and can support it. Of course, if you say it was a command decision, I should butt out and that's that; I can understand that as well. We all do appreciate that you are willing to engage us in the sausage-making like this.

I suppose then that with regards to activating another power before my animation is complete will have one of three results. Either

The system will ignore the new power activation until my current animation is complete or gets interrupted, or

activating a second power during an animation acts as an interrupt, or

activating a power during an animation cancels the existing animation and all effects associated with it.

From what you have told us so far, let me take a guess:
Activating a second power during an animation will be ignored. Moving during an (rooted)animation, however, will count as an interrupt; which would enable us to then activate the second power before we otherwise could. Is that about how it will be?

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
I really don't like this at all.
If snipe is a three second cast, and you get interrupted 0.5 seconds into it, I don't want to stand there for another 2.5 seconds waiting for the animation to finish before I can do anything else. And if moving ourselves also counts as an interruption, that's even worse. Because I can't tell you how many times I get into a long-cast-time power and have to move to avoid a big telegraphed attack. Not only would that look absolutely horrible to be moving while the snipe animation is still happening, but I would not be able to pop a heal or any other emergency instant-cast ability until the animation has completed.
There really should be a way to interrupt the animation when the ability is interrupted.
There's still an interruption mechanism for the animation. I only meant you couldn't have the power be different between it being a snipe vs not snipe, or knockback vs not knockback.
Understood. That makes much more sense.
But now I don't understand the reason for not using a hold-down to charge option. It seems that since you will have an interruption mechanism for animations, why not let the same interruption mechanism occur when a button is released? Is it because of a latency/queries-per-second issue that you don't want to flood the system with assurances that the button continues to be depressed until it is not? I can understand that reasoning and can support it. Of course, if you say it was a command decision, I should butt out and that's that; I can understand that as well. We all do appreciate that you are willing to engage us in the sausage-making like this.
I suppose then that with regards to activating another power before my animation is complete will have one of three results. Either The system will ignore the new power activation until my current animation is complete or gets interrupted, oractivating a second power during an animation acts as an interrupt, or activating a power during an animation cancels the existing animation and all effects associated with it.From what you have told us so far, let me take a guess:
Activating a second power during an animation will be ignored. Moving during an (rooted)animation, however, will count as an interrupt; which would enable us to then activate the second power before we otherwise could. Is that about how it will be?

The animations run the same length as the power, so you would not be able to activate the next power anyways. It would only cue up to execute as soon as the existing power finishes. The only exception are those which can be interrupted.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

The animations run the same length as the power, so you would not be able to activate the next power anyways. It would only cue up to execute as soon as the existing power finishes. The only exception are those which can be interrupted.

I think I understand. I like the cuing concept and am glad you are adopting it. I believe you had already made this known to us and I had just forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder.

When we have been discussing interruptions within our context so far we have only been talking about powers that have a weakened interrupted effect, correct? So regardless of the uninterruptible nature of a power animation, it can still be interrupted as a result of a control effect put in place in mid-animation, correct? In such a case, I suppose the word 'cancelled' would be more appropriate than 'interrupted' since the word interrupted should be reserved for those powers that have a weakened interrupted effect, correct?

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

I'm confused about something. The right click vs left click for knock down vs back.

I map my keyboard/mouse so that I use the mouse in my right hand for movement only and then the power tray mapped to the left-hand area of the keyboard. So, I'm mouse clicking left to strafe left and right to strafe right and click both to move forward, and then my left hand is activating powers using keys mapped to match my power trays. I know it's unusual, but it's incredibly intuitive to me and I love it.

First question, I guess, is will I even be able to map this way, but, second, what do I do to chose KB vs KD?

I'm confused about something. The right click vs left click for knock down vs back.
I map my keyboard/mouse so that I use the mouse in my right hand for movement only and then the power tray mapped to the left-hand area of the keyboard. So, I'm mouse clicking left to strafe left and right to strafe right and click both to move forward, and then my left hand is activating powers using keys mapped to match my power trays. I know it's unusual, but it's incredibly intuitive to me and I love it.
First question, I guess, is will I even be able to map this way, but, second, what do I do to chose KB vs KD?

Mouse click is for when you are using the mouse to click on the power icon. Right / Left click the icon.

If you remap to use keys to activate, you can remap each activation function to a desired key.

Example press 1 for knock down, Shift+1 for knock back, or q for knock down, w for knock back, and so on.

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I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic - Tech Team.

Adding to Redlynne's "Interruption conditions and their results", I suppose we should also consider if there are different categories of interruptable powers, such that the power's user becomes more or less sensitive to various types of potential interruptions:

> user is affected by incoming control effect (and possibly only for certain controls, and only if those controls have stacked sufficiently to apply the full effect)
> user moves or is already in motion by their own choice?
> user is moved (bumped by a friendly? an enemy? sliding or pushed by environmental object/effect? teleported by friendly?)
> user takes damage (any damage? damage over a threshold on their health? newly applied damage vs damage from a DoT applied prior to the power? unavoidable environmental damage ticks?)
> user is affected by a debuff (first application only? each tick? do only certain types of debuffs interrupt?)
> user starts interaction and/or is already interacting with a clickable object?
> Does the act of evading damage still cause interruption?
> What about dropping out of an altered state such as being phased (detoggling the power, or the power's duration expires), or triggering a cutscene?

Something Scott Jackson raised was [paraphrased] will allies/pets "move" you? If not is it simply that you occupy that space and they have to go around or will we be able to move through each other?

I remember in CoH in tight tunnels/corridors MM pets would get in the way and the players would be stuck behind them. Even worse when one of the pets got stuck in a doorway so the entire team was stuck unless the MM dismissed the pet.

Good question. That was a "displacement" to sort hitboxes, rather than a "movement" brought about by a "move that-a-way" command or being affected by a Power (knock, repel/attract, teleport). So given the information that Tannim222 provided, I would argue that being "displaced by Pet movements" like you're describing (and which happened A LOT) would not qualify as something that would Interrupt. Because ... displacement of your character to "sort" hitboxes and prevent clipping of avatars is not ...

Movement by Player input

A function of being hit and/or of taking damage

The Player attempting to take any other actions

Being displaced by an ENEMY in such a way as to forcibly move your character using the effects of Powers

At least, that's what I get out of Tannim222's list above.

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Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.