I have been told that ISP plans on posting instructors much sooner than the 60 days allowed, even if they are on a static page of their website.

All course (even NRA course, and whatever a NRA instructor decides to do regarding teaching the legal portion of the required curriculum) have to be reviewed and accepted by the ISP

It has been suggested that NRA instructors will need to provide their clients with multiple certificates, Certificates for any NRA course taught that covers required material and a separate certificate regarding the legal portions of the course. This protects the NRA against any assumption that an NRA certificate covers the legal portions of the training and allow the ISP to know who provided the legal training.

The legal portion need to cover applicable STATE and FEDERAL gun laws regarding a number of topics.

Roger that. The NRA is flatly against their Instructors holding out NRA Instructor Creds or NRA courses as State approved CCW classes. I see the 16 hours as being a mix of NRA Basic Pistol (8hrs) and a second 8 hrs of the Instructor's design.

I have my curriculum ready to submit, just waiting on the Process to be released by the ISP...

Roger that. The NRA is flatly against their Instructors holding out NRA Instructor Creds or NRA courses as State approved CCW classes. I see the 16 hours as being a mix of NRA Basic Pistol (8hrs) and a second 8 hrs of the Instructor's design.

I have my curriculum ready to submit, just waiting on the Process to be released by the ISP...

wouldn't basic pistol and one of the personal protection series about do it?

Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, 60 rounds powder and ball and be ready to march at a minute's warning

Yes, those classes plus the live fire Quall would cover all the points mentioned in the law. However, due to the need of an attorney or POST CERT LEO to cover Chapter 3 of PPITH, I don't know if that's the best route. I'm hoping the ISP puts out the legal outline so that we can put on our own second 8 hours, it would help keep costs down.

I was under the impression that you cannot take PPITH without taking BP and PPOTH.

No, you cannot take PPOTH without PPITH first.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer. If they are not doing that the class is invalid, your certs invalid, you liked on the application, shoot someone after showing your a liar is not a good way to start legal proceedings. (just look at michigan, people giving out invalid certs are getting charged with felonies)

You do not need BP however it is not INTENDED to be fore new shooters. Hence why I regularly offer it with my Intro to pistol course the day before.

I don't know what you guys are talking about with the NRA not wanting to be liable for the legal portion. They aren't currently, and in many states their courses are the basis for CCW laws, so I would like a cite to see what your talking about. (you may not AS a NRA instructor teach the legal portion, they are in no way liable for it at all currently) I'm going to hopefully get it approved in both combos I currently teach it which is the NRA PPITH with my intro class or my defensive class. (so intro then PPITH or PPITH and then defensive) we'll see how it goes.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer.

Can't be just any LEO. Must be one that is certified to instruct on use of force.

Another person that can conduct the legal portion of the NRA PP courses is a firearm instructor certified by their state to teach use of force aspects of the law.

So............I may be making a stretch, but if I and my course(s) are approved by the state of IL to teach CCL courses that must include legal aspects of the use of force, I beileve one now meets the NRA's requirement to teach the legal section of the PP courses.

But...........one does not have to use the NRA's course for that section either. The basic standards that must be met are universal and the code on the judicious use of force, carrying, transporting, storage, etc are unique to IL

In one way I believe you meet the NRA's requirement being a "registered" instructor by the state and in another way it's moot if you don't use the PP courses.

Anyways...I will be registered as an instructor, but may never conduct courses. 16 hrs is too much for me at this time in my life. 4-6 hrs would be ideal and I could live with 8. There are plenty of instructors in my area and more will probably pop up overnight.

Yes, those classes plus the live fire Quall would cover all the points mentioned in the law. However, due to the need of an attorney or POST CERT LEO to cover Chapter 3 of PPITH, I don't know if that's the best route. I'm hoping the ISP puts out the legal outline so that we can put on our own second 8 hours, it would help keep costs down.

I think the Armerican Rifleman (the Appleseeds Splinter group) does essentially this in their class -

Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, 60 rounds powder and ball and be ready to march at a minute's warning

The legal aspects of the new law should be covered by having the students sign off that they have read and understand all applicable laws and regulations governing carry. The instructor should go through the published regulations and prohibited locations.

The same should apply to the portion dedicated to use of force/self-defense laws.

Instruction should also include the consequences of a defensive shooting.

The last thing I want to see is a requirement that an attorney or LEO be required to teach this portion. LEO's are the last resort for legal advise not the first, and instructors just teach and convey the rules and required elements, they do not provide legal advise.

I would prefer a required an English language professor over LEO's or attorneys.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer.

Anyways...I will be registered as an instructor, but may never conduct courses. 16 hrs is too much for me at this time in my life. 4-6 hrs would be ideal and I could live with 8. There are plenty of instructors in my area and more will probably pop up overnight.

I will also probably fall into this category, but I would be willing to assist other instructors for large classes or portions of multi-day classes.

I was under the impression that you cannot take PPITH without taking BP and PPOTH.

No, you cannot take PPOTH without PPITH first.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer. If they are not doing that the class is invalid, your certs invalid, you liked on the application, shoot someone after showing your a liar is not a good way to start legal proceedings. (just look at michigan, people giving out invalid certs are getting charged with felonies)

You do not need BP however it is not INTENDED to be fore new shooters. Hence why I regularly offer it with my Intro to pistol course the day before.

I don't know what you guys are talking about with the NRA not wanting to be liable for the legal portion. They aren't currently, and in many states their courses are the basis for CCW laws, so I would like a cite to see what your talking about. (you may not AS a NRA instructor teach the legal portion, they are in no way liable for it at all currently) I'm going to hopefully get it approved in both combos I currently teach it which is the NRA PPITH with my intro class or my defensive class. (so intro then PPITH or PPITH and then defensive) we'll see how it goes.

I did not say anything about the NRA not wanting to be Liable for the legal portion (although they don't, which is why they require an Attorney/POST-LEO teach that portion). What I said is that the NRA is against instructors holding out their creds/classes as CCW classes. I know that most states accept NRA classes for training, but that is the state's choice.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer.

Can't be just any LEO. Must be one that is certified to instruct on use of force.

Another person that can conduct the legal portion of the NRA PP courses is a firearm instructor certified by their state to teach use of force aspects of the law.

So............I may be making a stretch, but if I and my course(s) are approved by the state of IL to teach CCL courses that must include legal aspects of the use of force, I beileve one now meets the NRA's requirement to teach the legal section of the PP courses.

But...........one does not have to use the NRA's course for that section either. The basic standards that must be met are universal and the code on the judicious use of force, carrying, transporting, storage, etc are unique to IL

In one way I believe you meet the NRA's requirement being a "registered" instructor by the state and in another way it's moot if you don't use the PP courses.

Anyways...I will be registered as an instructor, but may never conduct courses. 16 hrs is too much for me at this time in my life. 4-6 hrs would be ideal and I could live with 8. There are plenty of instructors in my area and more will probably pop up overnight.

That is pretty much what we are hoping for. Once we become ISP approved, we will be able to teach the Legal Portion. However, we cannot bill that PPITH/PPOTH since none of my instructors fit the NRA's qualifications of who can conduct Chapter 3... That is why we have created our own "second 8hrs" incorporating parts of PPITH, PPOTH, Illinois specific law, and the live shooting qual.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer.

Can't be just any LEO. Must be one that is certified to instruct on use of force.

Another person that can conduct the legal portion of the NRA PP courses is a firearm instructor certified by their state to teach use of force aspects of the law.

So............I may be making a stretch, but if I and my course(s) are approved by the state of IL to teach CCL courses that must include legal aspects of the use of force, I beileve one now meets the NRA's requirement to teach the legal section of the PP courses.

But...........one does not have to use the NRA's course for that section either. The basic standards that must be met are universal and the code on the judicious use of force, carrying, transporting, storage, etc are unique to IL

In one way I believe you meet the NRA's requirement being a "registered" instructor by the state and in another way it's moot if you don't use the PP courses.

Anyways...I will be registered as an instructor, but may never conduct courses. 16 hrs is too much for me at this time in my life. 4-6 hrs would be ideal and I could live with 8. There are plenty of instructors in my area and more will probably pop up overnight.

That is pretty much what we are hoping for. Once we become ISP approved, we will be able to teach the Legal Portion. However, we cannot bill that PPITH/PPOTH since none of my instructors fit the NRA's qualifications of who can conduct Chapter 3... That is why we have created our own "second 8hrs" incorporating parts of PPITH, PPOTH, Illinois specific law, and the live shooting qual.

In either case, I'm just looking forward to being an IL certified instructor so I can help people get some CCL and help make the streets safer. I have been holding off and telling all the people that want my NRA class for CCW to wait until the IL gets their act together so that they aren't wasting any time or money.

I plan on using the NRA basic pistol class as the first 8 hours, and the 2nd 8 hours will be Illinois specific CCW, requirements, allowed/prohibited places, Illinois and federal gun laws, defensive/use of force laws and the range qualification. What I am hoping is that I really will only have to do the 2nd half of the class. Most of my targeted students will be people that can grandfather in 8 hours with previous training or DD-214s. I am in discussions with a local gun store to do the Illinois CCW training for him, he has a classroom, but no range, so we have to work something out.

Roger that. The NRA is flatly against their Instructors holding out NRA Instructor Creds or NRA courses as State approved CCW classes. I see the 16 hours as being a mix of NRA Basic Pistol (8hrs) and a second 8 hrs of the Instructor's design.

I have my curriculum ready to submit, just waiting on the Process to be released by the ISP...

My strategy as well. And really, we could spend a half day at the range, letting the students shoot. We just need to cover what the law says. I would think a half day would do that, and include ways to carry (holsters, purses), dressing for the gun, etc. I haven't written up my class curriculum, but i don't think it will take long. The law pretty much says what it is supposed to be!

I plan on using the NRA basic pistol class as the first 8 hours, and the 2nd 8 hours will be Illinois specific CCW, requirements, allowed/prohibited places, Illinois and federal gun laws, defensive/use of force laws and the range qualification. What I am hoping is that I really will only have to do the 2nd half of the class. Most of my targeted students will be people that can grandfather in 8 hours with previous training or DD-214s. I am in discussions with a local gun store to do the Illinois CCW training for him, he has a classroom, but no range, so we have to work something out.

Blueliner, as a fellow resident of Elgin and an NRA certified instructor, I feel your pain. All of the local ranges are pretty much booked solid for any hours that students would want to take classes. This has been a very real dilema, and will only get worse. What I would like to do, once we know what all the "Illinois stuff" will be, is to do a class that covers it ALL. As far as the range portion, my current thought is to just go to the range with one (or two) students at a time and just get lanes as usual. I don't know of another, better way to do the range portion of it. Yes, it will be time consuming and more expensive for me to do it this way, but at this point I can't think of a better option. And the students will definitely get one-on-one instruction this way, also. What are your thoughts?

Warner

PS - I AM going to take you up on your previous offer to go to an IDPA event with you....sounds like a blast.

I plan on using the NRA basic pistol class as the first 8 hours, and the 2nd 8 hours will be Illinois specific CCW, requirements, allowed/prohibited places, Illinois and federal gun laws, defensive/use of force laws and the range qualification. What I am hoping is that I really will only have to do the 2nd half of the class. Most of my targeted students will be people that can grandfather in 8 hours with previous training or DD-214s. I am in discussions with a local gun store to do the Illinois CCW training for him, he has a classroom, but no range, so we have to work something out.

This pretty much seems to be the consensus. Not only would that allow us to teach the LAW portion, but also allows for more follow-up training/repeat students. I am wondering, however, if the ISP is going to release an outline of what must be covered in the following:

(4) all applicable State and federal laws relating tothe ownership, storage, carry, and transportation of afirearm; and(5) instruction on the appropriate and lawfulinteraction with law enforcement while transporting orcarrying a concealed firearm.

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer.

Can't be just any LEO. Must be one that is certified to instruct on use of force.

Another person that can conduct the legal portion of the NRA PP courses is a firearm instructor certified by their state to teach use of force aspects of the law.

So............I may be making a stretch, but if I and my course(s) are approved by the state of IL to teach CCL courses that must include legal aspects of the use of force, I beileve one now meets the NRA's requirement to teach the legal section of the PP courses.

I put in an email to the NRA Training division to see if being a registered IL CCW instructor would enable a PPITH/PPOTH instructor to teach the legal portion, so long as they do not do so as an NRA Instructor. I received the following response today: "You will need to retain the services of a legal/law enforcement professional as outlined in the Training Materials.

I interpreted it the same way you did, but it seems the NRA does not concur.

I put in an email to the NRA Training division to see if being a registered IL CCW instructor would enable a PPITH/PPOTH instructor to teach the legal portion, so long as they do not do so as an NRA Instructor. I received the following response today: "You will need to retain the services of a legal/law enforcement professional as outlined in the Training Materials.

I interpreted it the same way you did, but it seems the NRA does not concur.

Well, I don't really think the NRA knows or can tell you what is required by the state of Illinois, right? That hasn't been defined yet, specifically. I think what they are saying is that you can't teach the PPITH or PPOTH courses without a legal/law enforcement person for that chapter. I think this is a seperate issue from what the state of Illinois will require, correct?

PPITH comes first, it is 8 hours and MUST be taught with a legal portion by either a cop or a lawyer.

Can't be just any LEO. Must be one that is certified to instruct on use of force.

Another person that can conduct the legal portion of the NRA PP courses is a firearm instructor certified by their state to teach use of force aspects of the law.

So............I may be making a stretch, but if I and my course(s) are approved by the state of IL to teach CCL courses that must include legal aspects of the use of force, I beileve one now meets the NRA's requirement to teach the legal section of the PP courses.

I put in an email to the NRA Training division to see if being a registered IL CCW instructor would enable a PPITH/PPOTH instructor to teach the legal portion, so long as they do not do so as an NRA Instructor. I received the following response today: "You will need to retain the services of a legal/law enforcement professional as outlined in the Training Materials.

I interpreted it the same way you did, but it seems the NRA does not concur.

This is why we, and most other instructors I know, are not planning on using PPIH/PPOH for the second 8 hours. If we and our class are ISP approved, we can teach; we just can not hold the class out as an NRA Class and cannot issue NRA Course Certificates. Almost all the material covered, however, can be the same.

So here is what I want to kniw, An NRA instructor cannot teach law under thre NRA credential. If a NRA instructor "takes off" their NRA hat and now starts to tech law, under whar instrucot credential are they teaching the law?

Those instructors planning on this will be out of luck with any insurance they may hold with out any credential to teach that subject. The NRA isn't going to come to your rescue,

On another note, I am hearing that ISP lawyers are now involved. So yhe people making the rules do not understand thearea of expertise. ISP staff was hopeful to begin posting instructors within 30 days. With the lawyer involved, they are now hopeful for sept.1.

There are to competing processes in place. One that will likely raise the ire of the IL House of Reps and one that is more responsible but not liked by the attorneys. The competition will take another week to resolve.

The NRA (Lockton) Insurance for instructors covers ANY class, even those that are NOT NRA curriculum. There are also other insurance programs available that cover firearms instructors similar to this policy.

The class or curriculum that instructors will teach in IL will be an Illinois State Police approved curriculum, not Joe Schmoe's weekend warrior ninja curriculum.

Most instructors will be fine in IL, with these understandings, as long as the instructor isn't negligent or malicious and deviate from the approved ISP curriculum. When they instructors do this, they will become ILLINOIS CERTIFIED INSTRUCTORS and will not need to dangle their NRA credentials unless they are doing an NRA class, such as the Basic Pistol for the first half of the 16 hour course.

For further information, see the Utah Certified Instructor program. Most of the instructors are NRA instructors and they teach law and legal info that the NRA does not "allow" under the NRA banner. They have no issues at all because they are certified by the state of Utah, much like how we will be certified by the state or Illinois.

I plan on using the NRA basic pistol class as the first 8 hours, and the 2nd 8 hours will be Illinois specific CCW, requirements, allowed/prohibited places, Illinois and federal gun laws, defensive/use of force laws and the range qualification. What I am hoping is that I really will only have to do the 2nd half of the class. Most of my targeted students will be people that can grandfather in 8 hours with previous training or DD-214s. I am in discussions with a local gun store to do the Illinois CCW training for him, he has a classroom, but no range, so we have to work something out.

Blueliner, as a fellow resident of Elgin and an NRA certified instructor, I feel your pain. All of the local ranges are pretty much booked solid for any hours that students would want to take classes. This has been a very real dilema, and will only get worse. What I would like to do, once we know what all the "Illinois stuff" will be, is to do a class that covers it ALL. As far as the range portion, my current thought is to just go to the range with one (or two) students at a time and just get lanes as usual. I don't know of another, better way to do the range portion of it. Yes, it will be time consuming and more expensive for me to do it this way, but at this point I can't think of a better option. And the students will definitely get one-on-one instruction this way, also. What are your thoughts?

Warner

PS - I AM going to take you up on your previous offer to go to an IDPA event with you....sounds like a blast.

That was my first thought, to just get a lane at GAT or Article 2 and schedule the students to come in at 15 minute intervals over 2 or 3 days and do the range portion. I am trying to work something out with the new gun store in South Elgin, he seems to think he can get approval from South Elgin for a small .22lr range, but that remains to be seen.

I plan on using the NRA basic pistol class as the first 8 hours, and the 2nd 8 hours will be Illinois specific CCW, requirements, allowed/prohibited places, Illinois and federal gun laws, defensive/use of force laws and the range qualification. What I am hoping is that I really will only have to do the 2nd half of the class. Most of my targeted students will be people that can grandfather in 8 hours with previous training or DD-214s. I am in discussions with a local gun store to do the Illinois CCW training for him, he has a classroom, but no range, so we have to work something out.

Blueliner, as a fellow resident of Elgin and an NRA certified instructor, I feel your pain. All of the local ranges are pretty much booked solid for any hours that students would want to take classes. This has been a very real dilema, and will only get worse. What I would like to do, once we know what all the "Illinois stuff" will be, is to do a class that covers it ALL. As far as the range portion, my current thought is to just go to the range with one (or two) students at a time and just get lanes as usual. I don't know of another, better way to do the range portion of it. Yes, it will be time consuming and more expensive for me to do it this way, but at this point I can't think of a better option. And the students will definitely get one-on-one instruction this way, also. What are your thoughts?

Warner

PS - I AM going to take you up on your previous offer to go to an IDPA event with you....sounds like a blast.

That was my first thought, to just get a lane at GAT or Article 2 and schedule the students to come in at 15 minute intervals over 2 or 3 days and do the range portion. I am trying to work something out with the new gun store in South Elgin, he seems to think he can get approval from South Elgin for a small .22lr range, but that remains to be seen.

If there's a better way to do it, I don't know what it is. Last time I checked with Article II, they didn't have ANY open weekend dates unitl December. I'm sure those have all been taken by now. I honestly think, shy of having a friend that will and can let you use his property to do the shooting portion on, this is our best option.

Supposedly any NRA pistol course is to be on the approved list. I don't see a problem using the course certificates as a proof of training/required hours. I believe there will be a form instructors sign off on course hours that will be submitted by the applicant with their CCL registration forms.