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Blah, Blah, Blah.

Sometimes I find myself talking for the sake of talking, no content conveyed. No content in the action of talking and no content in the words spoken, just discursive thought, expressed in words. I think my ego does this to affirm that it exists. As long as I can engage myself with thought or engage others in my thoughts, I distract myself from the idea of nothingness or the idea of death. Fear of a wave disappearing into the ocean when it always has been the ocean.

May I cultivate through Zazen the need to talk only when I have something to say.

Sometimes it's a good idea to shut up. Zazen is easier when we are quiet!
Sometimes we feel the need to calm the mind and giving the blah blah blah a rest can help us open the hand of thought.
But it's natural for humans to talk, so there's no point in staying silent all the time.
No need to force ourselves to talk, no need to force ourselves to stay quiet.
When the mind is quiet, the mouth will be quiet. When the mind is discursive, the mouth will be discursive too.
Don't worry, even the most profound words are mostly blah blah blah anyway.

Gassho,
/Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

I agree with all these great points! I find it is all about balance, but sometimes that balance can be a bit lopsided, but that too is ok. We are naturally social creatures, so I think it is ok the blah blah blah once in awhile even thought the blah blah blah is just that ... it might be more of just connecting and being a part of something.

Gassho
Michael

倫道 真現

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

A really beautiful talk can be like silence. A really beautiful talk highlights silence and plays with it and often points to it. A conversation in which two people share (instead of thinking about what one is going to say and waiting to talk) and really give to one another and play with one another and leave space for one another - that is not two. For me (and this coming from a writer who talks a bunch of nonsense) words aren't only a way to say or communicate, they are a way to be: one can be selfish or selfless through them; one can be separate or together through them.

Sometimes I find myself talking for the sake of talking, no content conveyed. No content in the action of talking and no content in the words spoken, just discursive thought, expressed in words. I think my ego does this to affirm that it exists. As long as I can engage myself with thought or engage others in my thoughts, I distract myself from the idea of nothingness or the idea of death. Fear of a wave disappearing into the ocean when it always has been the ocean.

May I cultivate through Zazen the need to talk only when I have something to say.

JC

Hello John,

As someone who often says far, far more words than are needed, I would like to offer a little of my own experience grappling with the so-called Great Question.

Make a cup of tea (or coffee if that is your wont; I'm going to proceed with tea). Then consume it. Then wash the cup.

Where does "tea" become "tea"? Does it lose it's "tea-ness" when you drink it? Is the tea-cup really a tea-cup when there's no tea to go in it?

Take all the questions, bundle them up tightly, and toss them in the fire under the kettle. Then, just be with the tea as you sip it.

It's more "helpful" than you would think, and even if it isn't, you get a few quiet moments and a cup of tea out of the deal.

Nothing wrong with a little chit-chat in my opinion...we all wrestle with our ego in different ways and the fact that you have observed this behavior really is the most import thing, at least in my experience. Others differ I'm sure.

Gassho,
Dosho

Ordained Priest -In-TrainingPlease take what I say with a grain of salt,
especially in matters of the Dharma!

You won't get anywhere trying to strangle your discursive mind. Even if you can shut it up through sheer force of will for a little while, you can bet it's going to have a lot to say when you take your hand off its throat.

It seems that you think that the Buddhist path requires becoming different than you are- a new egoic occupation. However, acting more Buddhist or trying outwardly to be a 'good Buddhist' will likely backfire. Buddhism - especially Mahayana - is not a path of ruthless cutting.

Take your analytic mind and set it on the pure interrogative. Ask intensely who it is that your chatter is talking about - with genuine curiosity and compassion.

Chet

Last edited by disastermouse; 10-30-2012 at 09:15 PM.
Reason: spelling

You won't get anywhere trying to strangle your discursive mind. Even if you can shut it up through sheer force of will for a little while, you can bet it's going to have a lot to say when you take your hand of its throat.

It seems that you think that the Buddhist path requires becoming different than you are- a new egoic occupation. However, acting more Buddhist or trying outwardly to be a 'good Buddhist' will likely backfire. Buddhism - especially Mahayana - is not a path of ruthless cutting.

Take your analytic mind and set it on the pure interrogative. Ask intensely who it is that your chatter is talking about - with genuine curiosity and compassion.

I recently read a short story on robots, future life, etc. In the book they talk about how they would one day implant a device in the brain stem that would allow people to voluntarily cut off all their senses allowing for an uninterrupted and instant deep meditation. Everyone would become a zen master according to the story. All I could think about is how crazy my thoughts would go without the "real" world to distract it occasionally. I hope that losing all your senses isn't the "true" zen path!

Either way blah, blah, blah or not our true selves just keep on ticking.

All I could think about is how crazy my thoughts would go without the "real" world to distract it occasionally. I hope that losing all your senses isn't the "true" zen path!

Zen is everyday life, not some fancy trance-like state of mind. So you can keep all your senses, I'd say.
You just should avoid attachment...
Post edit: We need our "ego" in order to exist in everyday life - there is no way and no reason to switch it off entirely.

BTW: Even if you did self-hypnosis (which I used to do, but has nothing to do with Zen), you'd keep all you senses during "trance".

It seems that you think that the Buddhist path requires becoming different than you are- a new egoic occupation. However, acting more Buddhist or trying outwardly to be a 'good Buddhist' will likely backfire. Buddhism - especially Mahayana - is not a path of ruthless cutting.

Take your analytic mind and set it on the pure interrogative. Ask intensely who it is that your chatter is talking about - with genuine curiosity and compassion.

These words Chet are really spot on.

JC, don't worry about small and Big mind. Don't try to find more, please. And take care.

Take your analytic mind and set it on the pure interrogative. Ask intensely who it is that your chatter is talking about - with genuine curiosity and compassion.

Chet

Chet,

I don't really know what is underneath all the chatter. Thus far, I have uncovered the fear of death as the big motivator of who I am. I have a facility with academic acquisition of knowledge, but have a tougher time putting what I learn into action (learn to unlearn?).

I don't really know what is underneath all the chatter. Thus far, I have uncovered the fear of death as the big motivator of who I am. I have a facility with academic acquisition of knowledge, but have a tougher time putting what I learn into action (learn to unlearn?).

I appreciate your thoughts.

JC

You have a fear of dying, but you've never really examined what it is that (lives and) dies? This is a common problem.

Forget that you know anything. Is it unknowable or merely inexpressible? Who is this? Aren't you curious? Throw it all out and start right here in this moment. As Lin Chi said, "What at this moment is (read: could be) missing?"

Allowing oneself to be silent can be very rewarding. To see just how much junk wants to spew out of our mouth when left on its own can be alarming when we take notice of it....

"If Control's control is absolute, why does Control feel the need to control?" - William S. Burroughs

When I sit most silently (not an experience that happens often, not an experience I chase), right before that - the mind babbles even more nonsense than usual - and I let it. I am not it. And the rushing river sometimes quiets. It doesn't quiet by trying to shut it up, that just pulls me into the game and a mistaken 'I' is born in that moment. That's the wheel of Samsara - chasing yourself through memory and worry and various set-pieces of dream theater. Pushing this way and that, I am lost in a constructed self and have forgotten to just look at what this is.

Realizing that I've been hooked, I smile inwardly and release the hook. Over and over. Perfect zazen practice.

One comes to that Point of one's Practice where one hears, smells, tastes and fully embodies Silence (Big S) that is/as/shines through-and-through total silence (small s) or the loudest noise, words, gestures or being still. Sometimes we must be very quiet to perceive such, so quiet-still sitting is emphasized. But eventually, such Silence rings through all of life.

So, one need not have one's mouth shut to be Silent, and the quietest quiet can be noise to a confused mind.

There is a time for talking, time for blah blah, times for silence and leaving words aside. .. and Silence (Big S) speaks all.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Once Silence is found, it will change much of what and how you choose to say some things or not, and all one's way of living and experiencing the events of life.

The word rewarding always makes me itch a little!
I don't think you mean we should expect a reward for shutting up, but I know from personal experience how sneaky these little end-gaining ideas can be.

To see just how much junk

How can you be sure it's junk? Did anyone tell you it was junk? Could it be that you are overly judgemental towards the words that emerge spontaneously, without first being checked by the ego? Maybe the words that you are most proud of are the most contrived, and the spontaneous and sometimes silly stuff is what is most honest and true? (I don't know, just asking.)

wants to spew out of our mouth

To me, a natural function of the mouth is to spew out words.

when left on its own can be alarming

My ego is always alarmed when I leave the body and mind to do its own thing. But it doesn't fight back as strongly as it used to. Maybe because I don't try to fight it to begin with (in analogy with what Chet says).

when we take notice of it....

Brad recently commented on his blog that thoughts and attention is not the same thing. We don't have to pay attention to our thoughts. When you don't take notice, when you don't control, when you don't check back, when you let go and let Seiryu be Seiryu, let the words spontaneously emerge from the heart, perhaps you are preaching the true Dharma all day long without knowing?

Just thinking out loud,
It may be complete junk.

Gassho
Pontus

Last edited by Omoi Otoshi; 10-31-2012 at 10:38 AM.

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

So, one need not have one's mouth shut to be Silent, and the quietest quiet can be noise to a confused mind.

Alan already touched on the first part, but the second part is just as important. It's very, very true in my experience!

Gassho,
Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

Silence is always there, we are just so go at avoiding at, at running away from it.

The word rewarding always makes me itch a little!
I don't think you mean we should expect a reward for shutting up, but I know from personal experience how sneaky these little end-gaining ideas can be.

Why does the word make you itch? Avoiding end-gaining ideas can sneaky-ly become just another reward we are seeking for ourselves...

For me, many many junk floats around my mind....but whats junk for me, is priceless gold for someone else...

Silence is always there, we are just so go at avoiding at, at running away from it.

Why does the word make you itch? Avoiding end-gaining ideas can sneaky-ly become just another reward we are seeking for ourselves...

For me, many many junk floats around my mind....but whats junk for me, is priceless gold for someone else...

Unhelpful relativism is unhelpful.

The rewarding itch is only itchy if you can't see through it. There is no exact language for Zen, and yet Zen activity can be VERY exact. It's strange, no? Keep on your practice and these quibbles will either disappear or become amazing teachers.