Some of your comments have been somewhat comforting, but still what about the recurring theme in most NDE's about people who experience hell feeling as Foreman put it,... "Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt".

That's what scares me,...what if hell isn't a party place, but just a pit of despair?

What if that was Heaven? I mean, people are told that Hell is the bad place and Heaven is the good, then people have "good" NDEs and associate that with Heaven, and have "bad" NDEs and associate that with Hell. But what if those are backwards? What if by following the god on blind faith is exactly what the god does not want. Maybe this world is a test, and those that fail by believing in things without evidence are dumped into the eternal trash which is Hell. And those that practice good skepticism and show a decent logical prowess pass the test and get into the good place.

And when did this switch from manga's thread to Bruno's?

Well manga hasn't been around since they posted this more or less, so I thought I would take over...anyway haven't all of you had these thoughts before, just a little doubt or concern once in a while?

So here's a thing, most of us suffer occasionaly or have experienced what they refer to as “sleep start” or “hypnic jerk." Technically defined as “sudden brief, simultaneous contractions of the body or one or more body segments occurring at sleep onset". Basically people feel like they are falling, and usually these occur when we first are attempting to fall asleep or what is referred to as sleep onset.These hypnic jerks are just a normal part of falling asleep for most folks, and are either barely noted or quickly forgotten prior to us falling asleep during the transitional phase of being drowsy, or stage 1. Studies have concluded that there are no known pathological causes for this, in fact the real or actual cause of this is not known, but some speculate that they may be the result of output from the brainstem reticular formation that becomes activated during the transition between wakefulness and sleep, so very similar to how our minds react when we are startled by a loud, or sudden noise behind us when we are awake.

Again for the majority of people these sleep starts are benign, however. If the jerks are very strong, they can be associated with rapid heartbeat and irregular breathing, so it's not uncommon for people to be awakened from light sleep as a result of a sleep start or hypnic jerks.

Although I may experience these at the stage 1 of my sleep as with little consequence as described above, my problem is that I will on occasion experience these while I am in a very deep sleep, and both the experience and effect on me are quite starteling.

When this happens I awaken as if from the dead, and forgive me because I have no other way to describe the feeling, and it's not like the falling sensation normally felt by people. This sensation makes me feel as if I had experienced total heart and respiratory failure, and the sensation is, if only for a brief second or two, as if I knew exactly what it feels like to be dead...simply a total emptiness and walled off feeling of nothingness, despair of the most complete.When I awake my heart rate is through the roof, and I am for a brief time paralyzed with fright.

Now I know what it is I'm experiencing, the issues is I'm having hypnic jerks not while in the beginning of stage 1 sleep, but while in stages 3 and 4, or what is known as "slow wave sleep”. In slow wave sleep, brain and muscle activity decrease significantly, in fact there is so much relaxation of the muscles in the throat that people who are susceptible to sleep-related breathing disorders can experience difficult breathing.So it is during this stage that I am suddenly awakened, and of course the reaction of my body from this sleep start is quite exasperating to say the least, but again even though I know and understand the science of it, the feeling of despair and death I feel upon waking is enough to prevent me from falling asleep for the rest of the night, which of course gets me thinking all of these dark and idiotic thoughts about hell,etc...so than I find myself feeling utterly depressed as I run down the very long list of my transgressions and wild ways of my youth.

So I start to doubt, not because I'm not a skeptical or rational thinking person, but because I'm scared shitless in the middle of the night, and alone, and fucking depressed.

My doctor thinks I should do a sleep study, but fuck that...she'll just want to put my on some meds and I don't do meds.

So anyway I like the video about Biorn, I think in the morning I'll grab my old k-bar and head out into the woods looking for an opponent to award me with Valhalla!

My doctor thinks I should do a sleep study, but fuck that...she'll just want to put my on some meds and I don't do meds.

I was wondering if you'd be helped learning about what it feels like to be calm. For example with meditation you can get your heartbeat down and remain conscious. Sports may help to try and remain calm when your body is moving fast.

I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.

Zen student: "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more Correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?"

I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.

Zen student: "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more Correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?"

Well manga hasn't been around since they posted this more or less, so I thought I would take over...anyway haven't all of you had these thoughts before, just a little doubt or concern once in a while?

I can honestly say no, but I think it's simply because I've been used to the idea for so long. I remember when I was little and first started learning about heaven and hell by being told how people would be divided up for judgment into sheep and goats. The second I heard this, without having to think it over at all, I knew I was a goat and nothing would change that.

I did keep trying for a long time after that to be a good Xtian but it was so I could have a good life here and now, I had no question about where my soul was headed. I've been resigned to the Xtian destination for me since I was about 6 yrs old.

Logged

Sandy

"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?" from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

Well manga hasn't been around since they posted this more or less, so I thought I would take over...anyway haven't all of you had these thoughts before, just a little doubt or concern once in a while?

I can honestly say no, but I think it's simply because I've been used to the idea for so long. I remember when I was little and first started learning about heaven and hell by being told how people would be divided up for judgment into sheep and goats. The second I heard this, without having to think it over at all, I knew I was a goat and nothing would change that.

I did keep trying for a long time after that to be a good Xtian but it was so I could have a good life here and now, I had no question about where my soul was headed. I've been resigned to the Xtian destination for me since I was about 6 yrs old.

I never heard the sheep and goat thing

Logged

But, uh...well there it is."Nothing's a struggle, but everything is a challenge"-AnonHate Is Weakness

Bruno I too have had some of those sudden muscular contractions when near sleep and occasionally when in deep sleep. Annoying as hell. I confess that I do not review all my multitude of past transgressions while lying awake. . I merely curse, then determine to go back to sleep. If sleep does not come quickly, I damn the god, Morpheus some more and pick up the book on my bedside stand. A few minutes of reading makes me sleepy again. That works for me.

My wife flails around in her sleep. I do not sleep with her. She has a problem aside from intermittent flailing. She has sleep apnea. She has a gizmo, called a Cepap which is a mask like device that consists of air nozzles inserted into the nostrils. The magic machine knows when the user has a lapse in the breathing process. In those instances it propels an air stream into the nostrils until normal breathing is resumed. That malady is apparently fairly common and the people who furnish the Cepap devices do a brisk business. She does not use it every night because it irritates the nose openings. Elaine is not an old broad, she is 16 years my junior so it is not really about the difficulties that accompany advanced ageing.

Another annoying sleep disturbance is when the newspaper is thrown onto my lawn....somewhere around 3 or 4 AM, I am fully awakened although it is not at all a noisy event. Considering that I am a sound sleeper and that I could easily sleep through a train wreck in my front yard, the newspaper thing is a mystery.

"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?" from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

It's in the Bible, and the passage is read in Catholic churches as well. I had the same reaction to it as you did when I was a youngster.

In a way, it's good to get that sorted out early.

Logged

Sandy

"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?" from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

My doctor thinks I should do a sleep study, but fuck that...she'll just want to put my on some meds and I don't do meds.

I was wondering if you'd be helped learning about what it feels like to be calm. For example with meditation you can get your heartbeat down and remain conscious. Sports may help to try and remain calm when your body is moving fast.

This only happens to me 3-4 times a year, not as if it is a common occurrence, I did however, mention to my doctor when I was explaining to her how hard it has been for me to sleep straight through the night. I usually wake up at least twice each night. First time is usually around 0130, and the second time between 0330-0400. Like clockwork, and many times it takes me a while to fall back a sleep. (I'll usually read if it gets too bad, or simply go sit in our front room in the dark, try to calm my mind...often I just make tea, and wait until it is time for me to start getting ready for the day)

I do yoga three times a week (Have been for over three years now);plus excercise another 3-4 days per week, mixture of lifting, cycling and elliptical training.

I also meditate (15 minutes, maybe 30 minutes on a Sunday morning), not everyday, though that is my goal, eventually, I mean some day.

I'm pretty calm and relaxed most times, but the sleep start from a deep sleep is most disturbing, and alarming.

I have to confess to everyone here, that I don't really ruminate on all of my past "sins or transgressions", I was laying that out as bait for manga, thinking they might bite and steer me toward god or jesus as that is what I feel is the reaction they are hoping to get from someone here.

I do get the sleep starts as I described in detail though, and they are terrifying and I often wonder if that's how I will die, suddenly like that in my sleep, and these hypnic jerks do most times cause me to ponder my own death, and what that will be like,...mostly I just fear missing out on my kids lives, and maybe grandkids one day, makes me sad to think about, and sometimes I do wonder if there really is an afterlife (Actually sometimes I wish there was an afterlife as I would love to be reunited with my dad, if only once more as I'm on my way down to hell)

Anyway, I'm done here, done with NDE's....and promise only to come back if I have a real one of my own. Bye Manga