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Topic: Why bother getting married?? (Read 5657 times)

If someone was to get married properly and to love the person more than their own life and that they can't imagine a life without them in it hardly. To take that risk and to know that there is no marriage in heaven (as i just realised last night reading it!!!!!!) and all that love and risk is for nothing how can that be right???

Is it because the two become one like the bible says and so there is one spirit now?? (i hope so) and so they are a blended spirit

Is it because heaven is temporary and the new earth is where they can be together??

or is it that people just don't know each other after they die??

Don't give me a fafy answer be clear because this really bothered me when i read it.Thanks Poppy

Actually, marriage is Eternal. This, in fact, is one of the reasons why our Church has a penitential rite of second and third marriage for widow/ers and divorcees. A second marriage is a compromise to prevent worse harm befalling someone who, say, is a young widower and at risk of falling into fornication. What Christ said was that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the Angels of God in Heaven", but that doesn't mean that those who were married in their earthly lives are not still married at the resurrection. It simply means that our resurrection will be in Glorified bodies and the "demands of the flesh" will be gone. Some Orthodox couples actually "practice for this" during the fasting periods of the Church by abstaining from sexual relations (with mutual agreement), and in the monastery where I worship, men and women must stand on different sides of the nave, even if they are married, but these practices do not mean that the couple is temporarily "not married", rather it seeks to sanctify their love for one another by reminding them that while sex may be an expression of love, it is not the equivalent of love, nor is it the sum total of love.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 08:11:14 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Of course, I'm not married, so I don't feel qualified to give any advice on it. Those links above can help, and of course, as is customary on this site, we'd always suggest you talk to a Priest as well!

Actually, marriage is Eternal. This, in fact, is one of the reasons why our Church has a penitential rite of second and third marriage for widow/ers and divorcees. A second marriage is a compromise to prevent worse harm befalling someone who, say, is a young widower and at risk of falling into fornication. What Christ said was that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the Angels of God in Heaven", but that doesn't mean that those who were married in their earthly lives are not still married at the resurrection. It simply means that our resurrection will be in Glorified bodies and the "demands of the flesh" will be gone. Some Orthodox couples actually "practice for this" during the fasting periods of the Church by abstaining from sexual relations (with mutual agreement), and in the monastery where I worship, men and women must stand on different sides of the nave, even if they are married, but these practices do not mean that the couple is temporarily "not married", rather it seeks to sanctify their love for one another by reminding them that while sex may be an expression of love, it is not the equivalent of love, nor is it the sum total of love.

So then how does Orthodoxy deal with the Levirate question that prompted that verse? The wife is only married to the last guy?

« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 04:34:41 PM by Volnutt »

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Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Of course, I'm not married, so I don't feel qualified to give any advice on it. Those links above can help, and of course, as is customary on this site, we'd always suggest you talk to a Priest as well!

Monasticism is certainly AN alternative, but I hardly think it is the only alternative to marriage. Your statement makes it sound like single people have no reason to exist at all. I rather enjoy being single, and I have no intentions of becoming a monk.

Actually, marriage is Eternal. This, in fact, is one of the reasons why our Church has a penitential rite of second and third marriage for widow/ers and divorcees. A second marriage is a compromise to prevent worse harm befalling someone who, say, is a young widower and at risk of falling into fornication. What Christ said was that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the Angels of God in Heaven", but that doesn't mean that those who were married in their earthly lives are not still married at the resurrection. It simply means that our resurrection will be in Glorified bodies and the "demands of the flesh" will be gone. Some Orthodox couples actually "practice for this" during the fasting periods of the Church by abstaining from sexual relations (with mutual agreement), and in the monastery where I worship, men and women must stand on different sides of the nave, even if they are married, but these practices do not mean that the couple is temporarily "not married", rather it seeks to sanctify their love for one another by reminding them that while sex may be an expression of love, it is not the equivalent of love, nor is it the sum total of love.

So then how does Orthodoxy deal with the Levirate question that prompted that verse? The wife is only married to the last guy?

No, which is why a second marriage rite is penitential.

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Of course, I'm not married, so I don't feel qualified to give any advice on it. Those links above can help, and of course, as is customary on this site, we'd always suggest you talk to a Priest as well!

Monasticism is certainly AN alternative, but I hardly think it is the only alternative to marriage. Your statement makes it sound like single people have no reason to exist at all. I rather enjoy being single, and I have no intentions of becoming a monk.

My understanding is that you can either bet a monk, or married. From my readings about Orthodoxy, to remain single your whole life without entering a monastery or into marriage is considered kind of scandalous. I might be wrong, but from what I've read, the only two options are monasticism and marriage.

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Devin, I'm not so sure about that. I've read posts from one ROCOR monk on Monachos, with regards to celibate non-monastic priests, that while some do feel that a person should either be married or a monk/nun, that this is NOT a universal opinion. In fact, Bishop Jerome of the ROCOR was a celibate non-monastic priest for some time before being elected a bishop. So I'd say that would suggest that it isn't really scandalous, though perhaps uncommon (in fact, I'd argue that if a person who remains single and non-monastic their whole life is scandalous at all, it is only because of the uncommonness of it).

As an aside, I know of one very godly man who leads a group for sons of single mothers at a protestant church I used to go to, who has never been married in any of the time I have known him (about 12 years) and to the best of my knowledge never was before, but is in his early forties now (I believe) and will likely never get married (I would at least assume most 40 year olds who have never been married never will be). What shocks me, is that this has never seemed to scandalize anyone at that church (which really is weird given that protestantism has no monks).

If someone was to get married properly and to love the person more than their own life and that they can't imagine a life without them in it hardly. To take that risk and to know that there is no marriage in heaven (as i just realised last night reading it!!!!!!) and all that love and risk is for nothing how can that be right???

Is it because the two become one like the bible says and so there is one spirit now?? (i hope so) and so they are a blended spirit

Is it because heaven is temporary and the new earth is where they can be together??

or is it that people just don't know each other after they die??

Don't give me a fafy answer be clear because this really bothered me when i read it.Thanks Poppy

Hi Poppy!

I believe the below from Fr. Thomas Fitzgerald of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America neatly answers your question:

Quote

God is active in our lives. It is He who joins a man and a woman in a relationship of mutual love. The Sacrament of Marriage bears witness to His action. Through this Sacrament, a man and a woman are publicly joined as husband and wife. They enter into a new relationship with each other, God, and the Church. Since Marriage is not viewed as a legal contract, there are no vows in the Sacrament. According to Orthodox teachings, Marriage is not simply a social institution, it is an eternal vocation of the kingdom. A husband and a wife are called by the holy Spirit not only to live together but also to share their Christian life together so that each, with the aid of the other, may grow closer to God and become the persons they are meant to be. In the Orthodox Marriage Service, after the couple have been betrothed and exchanged rings, they are crowned with "crowns of glory and honor" signifying the establishment of a new family under God. Near the conclusion of the Service, the husband and wife drink from a common cup which is reminiscent of the wedding of Cana and which symbolized the sharing of the burdens and joys of their new life together.

Actually, marriage is Eternal. This, in fact, is one of the reasons why our Church has a penitential rite of second and third marriage for widow/ers and divorcees. A second marriage is a compromise to prevent worse harm befalling someone who, say, is a young widower and at risk of falling into fornication. What Christ said was that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the Angels of God in Heaven", but that doesn't mean that those who were married in their earthly lives are not still married at the resurrection. It simply means that our resurrection will be in Glorified bodies and the "demands of the flesh" will be gone. Some Orthodox couples actually "practice for this" during the fasting periods of the Church by abstaining from sexual relations (with mutual agreement), and in the monastery where I worship, men and women must stand on different sides of the nave, even if they are married, but these practices do not mean that the couple is temporarily "not married", rather it seeks to sanctify their love for one another by reminding them that while sex may be an expression of love, it is not the equivalent of love, nor is it the sum total of love.

So then how does Orthodoxy deal with the Levirate question that prompted that verse? The wife is only married to the last guy?

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

To take that risk and to know that there is no marriage in heaven (as i just realised last night reading it!!!!!!) and all that love and risk is for nothing how can that be right???

- God is Love. So how can love be less important in His Holy Kingdom? Marriage is the bond of love, for those who choose marriage as opposed to monastism.. So, in Heaven (God's Kingdom) or when He establishes His Kingdom on earth, for eternity, love is the key. And the Orthodox holy fathers teach that marriage is for two people to love God together. Their love for God comes first and in the bond of faith for God, it unites them as children of God and they are together. And look at the icon of Christ's Resurrection. Christ is holding onto Adam and Eve's hands. They're still together. So there are no risks.

Is it because the two become one like the bible says and so there is one spirit now?? (i hope so) and so they are a blended spirit

- They are not one spirit, but two halves of one. Adam and Eve are the archetypes. Marriage unites man and woman as partners. It's more about being a unity. Each one still has to face their personal judgements as seperate souls. So, if the one falls into adultry, for example, he/she is judged by God, but the other, if responsible for driving that person to that sin, will also answer for their sins that made the other fall. Do you see the seperateness, but unity of it? It's a great mystery and that's why the Orthodox Church lists it as one of the Holy Sacraments.

Is it because heaven is temporary and the new earth is where they can be together??

- Heaven is also called God's Holy Kingdom and we know that That's not temporary. It will just be established on earth and transform the earth as we know it in a state of complete Holiness and Perfection. It will be 1000 times better than marriage.

or is it that people just don't know each other after they die??

- Of course we will know each other after we die because we all have God in us and therefore are one with God. All the lives of saints show that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are recognized and they, in turn, recognize those still living on earth and others who have fallen asleep in Christ.

I don't want to get into a discussion of multiple marriages i'm confused enough about the one marriage and what happens to their spirits and if they are even going to know each other in heaven.

Why would one avoid marriage because one is worried about not having one's spouse in heaven? One does not even know if he will get there himself. Marriage and monasticism are paths to salvation, states of living for this age. Self-denial through either is how we arrive at submitting our wills to God's will, so that we may begin here the process of becoming like God. Even those who are not married or monastics can begin this process and make much progress in this life. The life to come is so incomparable to that which is now that it is well nigh indescribable. We have faith, though, that there no one will be disappointed.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Of course, I'm not married, so I don't feel qualified to give any advice on it. Those links above can help, and of course, as is customary on this site, we'd always suggest you talk to a Priest as well!

Monasticism is certainly AN alternative, but I hardly think it is the only alternative to marriage. Your statement makes it sound like single people have no reason to exist at all. I rather enjoy being single, and I have no intentions of becoming a monk.

My understanding is that you can either bet a monk, or married. From my readings about Orthodoxy, to remain single your whole life without entering a monastery or into marriage is considered kind of scandalous. I might be wrong, but from what I've read, the only two options are monasticism and marriage.

There are many holy people who died before tonsure or crowning. The important thing is intention. Not all are called to monasticism, and not all monasteries will just receive everyone, so to say that monasticism is always viable is false. Also, not all people can get married. Some have impediments, others have not found the right person, etc. Some may chose single, non-monastic life for selfish reasons, but I don't think it's right to saddle them with a burden because they have not been called to either life or circumstances have been such that either outcome is not possible. It is better to remain single, waiting on the will of God, than to enter into marriage or monasticism without the capacity for it. The people who say one or the other have a certain audience in mind, and their words should not be applied across the board, lest souls be ruined or troubled, and not aided.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

If someone was to get married properly and to love the person more than their own life and that they can't imagine a life without them in it hardly. To take that risk and to know that there is no marriage in heaven (as i just realised last night reading it!!!!!!) and all that love and risk is for nothing how can that be right???

You misunderstand, in Orthodox marriage is Divine Mystery/Sacrament. This means it is part of God's plan for our Salvation, equally integrated with Baptism, Holy Communion, and even the Priesthood. While we may chose to cooperate with the Mysteries, we do not outright chose them, rather God through the Spirit invites us and brings us into them. We can not on our own chose to commune with the Divine Mysteries, it is truly a mystical invitation to which we can offer only what we are able, our acceptance. God makes the offers, we can accept or decline, but it is not we who strike up the bargain initially, it is God.

So with Marriage, in Orthodox we believe that God worked to bring about the Marriage, and its God we trust then. We humans are not perfect and neither are our relationships. We really have to then get out of this idea that we chose God, rather we should embrace that it is God who chooses us. Some folks are called then to be Priests, others are called to Marriage, and a few to Virginity, but there is a place in God's kingdom for all likes of people. We must pray to heed God's calling then and live in the Divine Mysteries. The Apostles said the same sentiments you are expressing when they said, "If thus is the case, why is it that people even get married?" But Jesus Christ replied that the celibacy they were inherently suggesting to counter marriage was not something human beings could maintain of their own will, rather He said, "Not all are containing this saying, but those to whom it has been given."

Be it marriage or celibacy then, it is God who gives it to us, and not of we ourselves..

stay blessed,habte selassie

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Is that anything to do with what i've asked??? NO, so do me a favour huh??? Start a new thread because i got no idea WTF you're all talking about.

Dude, conversations grow and expand. They flow like a river. You may have started the conversation but you can't be the sole center of attention. I have learned a lot reading some of the replies in here, there is a lot of wisdom, let's both be attentive!

Is that anything to do with what i've asked??? NO, so do me a favour huh??? Start a new thread because i got no idea WTF you're all talking about.

Dude, conversations grow and expand. They flow like a river. You may have started the conversation but you can't be the sole center of attention. I have learned a lot reading some of the replies in here, there is a lot of wisdom, let's both be attentive!

"dude" being off topic is completely different. I'm not trying to be the sole center of attention and yeah i DO get allot out of all the other threads i read that i don't post on..... you know.... the ones that expand and grow??? Yeah really!!! But when i ask a direct question and i pacifically ask for people to stay on track then i expect ppl to respect that. Which they did.... Vol started another thread which is great.....everyones happy...... so "dude" SLASH! and jog on because i don't exactly know why you needed to comment on something that was already sorted and we had already moved on.

If someone was to get married properly and to love the person more than their own life and that they can't imagine a life without them in it hardly. To take that risk and to know that there is no marriage in heaven (as i just realised last night reading it!!!!!!) and all that love and risk is for nothing how can that be right???

Is it because the two become one like the bible says and so there is one spirit now?? (i hope so) and so they are a blended spirit

Is it because heaven is temporary and the new earth is where they can be together??

or is it that people just don't know each other after they die??

Don't give me a fafy answer be clear because this really bothered me when i read it.Thanks Poppy

Hi Poppy!

I believe the below from Fr. Thomas Fitzgerald of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America neatly answers your question:

Quote

God is active in our lives. It is He who joins a man and a woman in a relationship of mutual love. The Sacrament of Marriage bears witness to His action. Through this Sacrament, a man and a woman are publicly joined as husband and wife. They enter into a new relationship with each other, God, and the Church. Since Marriage is not viewed as a legal contract, there are no vows in the Sacrament. According to Orthodox teachings, Marriage is not simply a social institution, it is an eternal vocation of the kingdom. A husband and a wife are called by the holy Spirit not only to live together but also to share their Christian life together so that each, with the aid of the other, may grow closer to God and become the persons they are meant to be. In the Orthodox Marriage Service, after the couple have been betrothed and exchanged rings, they are crowned with "crowns of glory and honor" signifying the establishment of a new family under God. Near the conclusion of the Service, the husband and wife drink from a common cup which is reminiscent of the wedding of Cana and which symbolized the sharing of the burdens and joys of their new life together.

To take that risk and to know that there is no marriage in heaven (as i just realised last night reading it!!!!!!) and all that love and risk is for nothing how can that be right???

- God is Love. So how can love be less important in His Holy Kingdom? Marriage is the bond of love, for those who choose marriage as opposed to monastism.. So, in Heaven (God's Kingdom) or when He establishes His Kingdom on earth, for eternity, love is the key. And the Orthodox holy fathers teach that marriage is for two people to love God together. Their love for God comes first and in the bond of faith for God, it unites them as children of God and they are together. And look at the icon of Christ's Resurrection. Christ is holding onto Adam and Eve's hands. They're still together. So there are no risks.

Is it because the two become one like the bible says and so there is one spirit now?? (i hope so) and so they are a blended spirit

- They are not one spirit, but two halves of one. Adam and Eve are the archetypes. Marriage unites man and woman as partners. It's more about being a unity. Each one still has to face their personal judgements as seperate souls. So, if the one falls into adultry, for example, he/she is judged by God, but the other, if responsible for driving that person to that sin, will also answer for their sins that made the other fall. Do you see the seperateness, but unity of it? It's a great mystery and that's why the Orthodox Church lists it as one of the Holy Sacraments.

Is it because heaven is temporary and the new earth is where they can be together??

- Heaven is also called God's Holy Kingdom and we know that That's not temporary. It will just be established on earth and transform the earth as we know it in a state of complete Holiness and Perfection. It will be 1000 times better than marriage.

or is it that people just don't know each other after they die??

- Of course we will know each other after we die because we all have God in us and therefore are one with God. All the lives of saints show that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are recognized and they, in turn, recognize those still living on earth and others who have fallen asleep in Christ.

Thanks again Joasia, really appreciate you breaking it down. I had never thought of marriage as a sacrament but yeah it IS a mystery haha....

Is that anything to do with what i've asked??? NO, so do me a favour huh??? Start a new thread because i got no idea WTF you're all talking about.

Dude, conversations grow and expand. They flow like a river. You may have started the conversation but you can't be the sole center of attention. I have learned a lot reading some of the replies in here, there is a lot of wisdom, let's both be attentive!

"dude" being off topic is completely different. I'm not trying to be the sole center of attention and yeah i DO get allot out of all the other threads i read that i don't post on..... you know.... the ones that expand and grow??? Yeah really!!! But when i ask a direct question and i pacifically ask for people to stay on track then i expect ppl to respect that. Which they did.... Vol started another thread which is great.....everyones happy...... so "dude" STFU and jog on because i don't exactly know why you needed to comment on something that was already sorted and we had already moved on.

I'm just saying, your question was an interesting one and has many dimensions. Ozgeorge gave you a pretty deep answer, one that answered many questions I have had on the subject, but also opened up new questions like the one Volnutt asked. I have since looked at his thread as well. If I came off prickish, I sincerely apologize.

Is that anything to do with what i've asked??? NO, so do me a favour huh??? Start a new thread because i got no idea WTF you're all talking about.

Dude, conversations grow and expand. They flow like a river. You may have started the conversation but you can't be the sole center of attention. I have learned a lot reading some of the replies in here, there is a lot of wisdom, let's both be attentive!

"dude" being off topic is completely different. I'm not trying to be the sole center of attention and yeah i DO get allot out of all the other threads i read that i don't post on..... you know.... the ones that expand and grow??? Yeah really!!! But when i ask a direct question and i pacifically ask for people to stay on track then i expect ppl to respect that. Which they did.... Vol started another thread which is great.....everyones happy...... so "dude" STFU and jog on because i don't exactly know why you needed to comment on something that was already sorted and we had already moved on.

I know that such expressions have become commonplace online, but to me, acronyms like "WTF" and "STFU" really pop out and are a bit distracting, they also give the impression that you may be far more upset about something than you actually are, though I don't know if that's the case. So, I wonder, of your kindness, if you could refrain from using them here. Thanks, Poppy.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I was reading the Philokalia, Vol. 2, today and came across this teaching by St. Thalassios the Lybian.

"Love alone harmoniously joins all created things with God and with each other. " This follows the percept that I was trying to explain above.

If you haven't heard of the Philokalia, it's in 4 volumes. It's a compilation by St. Nicodemos of the Mt. Athos who put together great writings by the earlier holy fathers. There's something in there for everyone.

Jesus is just saying that in heaven, in the resurrection, the legal issues about marriage will not apply (because basicly the teachers of the law questioning Jesus, are thinking about marriage as a pure legality). Other than that, I don't think what Jesus says has any deeper meaning.

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"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther