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For the amount of money we are paying, we should be getting

For the amount of money we are paying, we should be getting

Submitted by tork on 08. Januar 2013

This is far and away the single statement that kills me every time I come on these forums. I can't possibly be the only one. I'm not really complaining, just trying to put things in perspective here. I'm sure I will get a lot of heat from people who obviously vehemently disagree with me but c'mon... It's almost like you think that just because you are opening up your wallets, the world should be handed to you.

For the amount of money we are paying, we are getting the car of the future. A car that has been mediocre at best when done by the major auto manufacturers or maybe even purposefully quashed by oil companies (shout out to the conspiracy theorists!). For 100K, you get to receive the fruits of some of our country's top engineers and inventors. A product that was almost a decade in the making and hundreds of millions in research and development. A car that outshines top performance and exotic cars (note I left off luxury though a case could be made). A real world product that, to be honest with you, I never believed would actually make it. And here I sit with an empty driveway, regretful of the fact that I did not believe in Elon and Tesla earlier (but I digress...)

Here it is... the car of the future... and you have the gall to come on to these forums and complain about what? parking sensors? floor mats? sun visors that don't have VANITY mirrors in them (note my emphasis)? For 100K, I should have rocket launchers built into my car. And lasers. C'mon Tesla, I'm practically throwing my bank account at you and you can't do that for me? But seriously. Take a step back and just think about it for a minute. This is, by far, the best car I have ever (test) driven. Honestly, I can't believe that I've become so enthused by a single car. I wasn't even a car person and now all I can think about is how much more fun my trips would be if I was driving a Tesla. And I know I'm not alone here - people here with thousands of miles on their car and still grinning like idiots when they mash the accelerator pedal.

You are on the forefront of car technology by being here and buying the car. And for that, I thank you. And my future kids thank you. And their kids. And so forth

gary.greene |
08. Januar 2013

Couldn't agree with you more Tork! You speak for me and many of the rest of us who are fully committed and excited to be part of American automobile history. PS-I can buy a window hanging cup holder from Pep Boys anytime it's needed.

rterry |
08. Januar 2013

I agree with Tork and am very excited to say goodbye to the economics and politics of the oil industry.

TimJ |
08. Januar 2013

+1

Osiris |
08. Januar 2013

Thumbs up! I agree and I 'm even stating that I am willing to accept bugs as long as Tesla tries to solve them. I'm prepared to be a testpilot of the most avanced car to date. I'm really proud to be among the first in Europe who will own this peace of futuristic engineering.

The only thing wrong about this car I can find so far is, that it is not build in Germany, where I come from. As a german engineer it is really painfull to admit, but Tesla acually build the best car in the world.

So Guys stop complaining as tork pointed out, eather be part of history and take the pain which comes with it or just wait untill EV will be mass-market.

Thumbs up to Tork

Desai |
08. Januar 2013

Well said @Tork!

jinglehyme |
08. Januar 2013

The S in any iteration is a drivers car, not a fully loaded land yacht. But I do sense a little disconnect between the sales hype and the day to day experience of owning a Tesla Model S. I consider myself an early adapter, and many configuration decisions I made along the way may have been different if I thought that Tesla was going to be so far behind the curve when it comes to customer service. If the ownership experience was as good as the vehicle, I'd be singing a different song.

My gripes about the service and ownership infrastructure are not related to the cutting-edge technology that created such a fantastic machine. It's more about the seemingly endless lack of communication between wings of the operation. There are proven systems in place where other automakers are able to cater to current owners needs while still grappling for future buyers. This my friends, is not new territory.

Today I showed up at the Santa Monica Service center to have a few factory defects corrected. The staff was friendly and professional. Smiles all around. Then the service writer tells me that the contracted loaner car supplier "Enterprise" is all out of cars. Huh, what? After driving for an hour and a half in traffic from Pasadena to Santa Monica I'm on foot? Enterprise did pick me up, and well over an hour later I had my choice of a pre bail-out GM or a Toyota Echo with a cracked windshield. Couldn't someone have called me?

In the short month and a half I owned the car, this is not the only problem I've experienced in my interchange with Tesla customer service. Growing pains? most likely. Forgivable? yes. But I would like a simple acknowledgement that the problems are known and change is in the works.

BYT |
08. Januar 2013

I've been vocal on both sides, on one hand, I am a SUPER HAPPY Tesla Model S driver who did believe in them 3 years ago and before that and placed my Model S signature reservation without hesitation. The car far exceeded my expectations and the only think I agree with Charlton Heston on is that they can pry my Model S from my cold dead hands!

That being said, I was every so slightly disappointed as a middle class consumer who understood that I am forking out $110k (before taxes and tax credits) for something that blows away everything else. I want Tesla Motors to be the car company THEY have set out to be and I want to help them achieve their goals as I also am a shareholder. I have been vocal about the shortcomings in order to help Tesla become better, if not for me and my Model S, then for the Model X and Gen III to come later.

You can NEVER EVER please everyone, that is a fact, and I don't expect TM to do that, but they can always improve in area's they may have overlooked or glossed over in their rush to do what nobody has ever done before. I for one am on their side completely and look only to make them better and will hold their feet to the fire where I think there is some room for improvement.

I would never diss or put you down tork and deep down I agree with you. But opinions are like you know what's and I'm going to be one and share mine! :D

NielsChr |
08. Januar 2013

+ 2 Tork.
Also remember that not all 100k$ is for the car, a lot of it is for the battery (20-40 k$), One could see this as a ICE car with pre-paid gas next 10 years, especially now that superchargers are free to use.

olanmills |
08. Januar 2013

+1, Nothing much else to add really

tork |
08. Januar 2013

@gary.greene
lol. The thought was funny enough that I really don't have a good enough response to compete

@NielsChr
I know most of the cars are actually not 100K. I just threw that number out because it seems to be the number that people like to throw out when they complain about missing features

@BYT

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and has the right to make them known, just as I have done. And I respect your opinions even if they differ from my own. Especially yours because I noticed you are an active member of these forums and prove to be more of an asset/ambassador of Tesla than anything. Thanks for taking the time to respond and thanks for believing in such a great company

Ohms.Law |
08. Januar 2013

@tork - thank you for writing what was clearly needed. You have provided a good service in helping to keep things in perspective. In fact if Tesla had attempted to load on all the bells and whistles that other high-end manufacturers have perfected over decades and hundreds of thousand of automobiles, they would have surely compounded the difficulties. Just as if had they set out to produce - out of the box - the world's best ICE car they would likely have failed. Too much institutional knowledge to contribute quantum improvements. So thank you for putting this out there and, um, embarrassing me for venting my recent impatience over seeing the actual red paint color. Pretty trivial stuff and I promise to button it. :o)

bobinfla |
08. Januar 2013

@Tork - Very well said and my exact sentiments. Future models will probably be better equipped, better performance, better priced, etc, and I could wait a few years for a more "mature" vehicle and company. But someone needs to be the early adopters so that there will be a company down the road to make those better cars. I drank the kool-aid and signed up for that role, and I will not, ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT, allow myself to pretend that I am something other than an early adopter "beta tester" getting an immature car from an immature company. Not fair to Tesla to change the rules and my expectations at this stage of the game.

And yes, their customer service, communication and delivery processes need worlds of work. But Tesla has gone from making something like 20 cars in the entire 2nd quarter, to 100 cars per week by end of third quarter up to 500+ per week by end of 4th quarter. That is some serious growth to assimilate into the company (and no, they couldn't afford to start hiring the employees needed 4 months ahead of time). While building out that production, they have also opened more stores, and more service centers, and gotten the SuperCharger network started, and (I assume) are making headway on the Model X, and (again I assume) are making headway on Gen III, and fighting stupid court battles. So I don’t know why people with much higher reservation numbers have gotten their car and I don’t have a VIN yet, and I don’t know if I’ll get a Delivery Specialist or just a truck driver when it does arrive, and I don’t know if it will have all the stuff it’s supposed to, and apparently I can’t be 100% sure it will actually be my car. But with all the stuff they are accomplishing in such a short period of time, I will cut them all the slack they need.

tork |
08. Januar 2013

@Ohm's.Law
Lol, I certainly did not intend to embarrass you or anyone else for that matter. I really can't blame you. Knowing how I can barely sit still waiting for the car myself, I definitely understand the impatience

BYT |
08. Januar 2013

I also appreciate your post tork and comments, thank you! :)

GDH |
08. Januar 2013

The fogging issue is huge with me and hope it will be addressed by the time my car is made. Also, the body panels not lining up is a build quality concern as well. But I am exicted to be a part of Tesla's future!

Dennis |
08. Januar 2013

Agreed Tork. well stated.

Ohms.Law |
08. Januar 2013

GDH - really? I respect your right to express opinions and concerns. But have you read this thread?

hfcolvin |
08. Januar 2013

Still - floor mats would be nice.

trydesky |
08. Januar 2013

- 1/2

I agree that the amount of money you spend does not entitle you to be more in a position to complain, but it's how the world works. I know of a major supplier, and their #1 buyer has tons of influence over them, while their low end buyers just don't. How about the political PACs that directly influence government with money? Of course these examples are not exactly the same, but they do speak to how money talks.

Also, you have to draw the distinction between complaining, and insightful request, no matter how small (floor mats). Some of the forum threads for wish lists are very clear and reasonable; and ultimately will make this car the best it can be.

JThompson |
08. Januar 2013

Amen, Tork - AMEN!!!

Captain_Zap |
08. Januar 2013

Agreed. I feel like I got a bargain. The car is a technical marvel.

Other cars that I would compare to the Model S cost a great deal more money.

The variety of perceptions of what creates value is quite interesting.

dborn @nsw.au |
08. Januar 2013

Cut them too much slack and they are going to slip. I too am a fan and will only get my car, (maybe) at the end of the year being a right hand drive vehicle, when much of the initial growing pains hopefully will be sorted out. This car is going to cost between $115000 and $145000 Australian dollars, which at current exchange rates is $152250.00 USA!!! For that price I think i have a right to demand that the car be loaded.!! It really is silly to factor out costs such as the battery as "extra". The pack is manufactured by Tesla!! Taxes are included in that figure, but so are they in all competitors cars. Development costs will be amortised over hundreds of thousands of cars eventually, same as any other product. Basic safety stuff and assist components for the physically challenged most definitely should be included, especially when the wheel does NOT have to reinvented such as parking sensors or interior grab handles. Mirrors have been around for hundreds of years and on sun visors for decades in the cheapest cars. So folks, lighten up.

brooklynrab |
08. Januar 2013

While I sympathize with the general sentiment expressed by Tork, i.e., that we should appreciate the miracle that Elon and team have produced, I must say that some of you sound like Moonies.
This is a fantastic company, have achieved fantastic things in a relatively short amount of time, and we know Tesla will improve greatly in the coming year as these are smart people who have shown a tremendous learning curve. However, Elon has stated that this will be the best car in its class, period, not just the best EV. At $80-100K, this means you should expect to get floor mats, a finished interior, door panels that fit, and electronic driving aids that you can find on a Kia. I trust they'll get there, but don't tell me I have no right to provide feedback to Tesla to urge them to take these shortcomings seriously.
I am a mere reservation holder and have not experienced the customer service and quality issues some have complained of on these boards, but if the problem is that Tesla has ramped up too quickly, I will gladly wait an additional three months to get mine if it means they have more time to get things working smoother. If we are believers in what Tesla is doing, we should be in this for the long haul.

jk2014 |
08. Januar 2013

Advantage brooklnrab...

TeslaTap.com |
08. Januar 2013

I have yet to see any car maker include ever possible feature on a car at any price. Often there are features some of us really don't want, and others I know most are unwilling to pay for. Some conflict with other features or are so badly implemented, you wish you didn't have them.

Some features are rather silly - such as solar panel on the car roof. My Calculations show it would give you about 1000ft of range per hour of sun - not worth another $1000 it would cost, at least to most of us.

Anyway, I like this thread - points out how worked up someone can be about a great car that is missing the one feature they can't live without. I wonder about all the prior cars they bought if they complained so much about the missing features too? My suspicion is they haven't had a car with anything like all the features in the Model-S.

I'll be very happy with the current design. Hope to get mine delivered in the next two weeks.

aa012a |
08. Januar 2013

@tork

++1 The best statement!

GDH |
08. Januar 2013

Anyway, I like this thread - points out how worked up someone can be about a great car that is missing the one feature they can't live without. I wonder about all the prior cars they bought if they complained so much about the missing features too? My suspicion is they haven't had a car with anything like all the features in the Model-S.

All the features in the Model-S?....my volvo has more features that the Model-S, except for wifi and the huge screen, which I do not need as that is what my iphone is for. My volvo comes with floor mats, carpeted and weather. has a working sunroof and a feature to defog the windows and it didn't cost 85K. yes the tesla is awesome but now they need to focus on other features than get up and go.

jk2014 |
08. Januar 2013

GDH is gluton for punishment...

stevenmaifert |
08. Januar 2013

I'm not critical of Tesla for Model S not having features they never advertised. But, they are six months plus into deliveries and the WiFi, flash memory storage and charge timers are still not functional. Yes, I know they are coming in a future software update, and yes, I would have still bought the car if I had known this in advance,... but again, "For the amount of money we are paying, we should be getting" what they advertised when the car is delivered.

Cattledog |
08. Januar 2013

Tork - Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care about luxury accoutrements. I am offering criticisms because Tesla is SO CLOSE to having nailed it, that missing the little things is frustrating to see. We let them know because we want them to succeed. Simply to be part of something great.

Today I took a naysayer Indian engineer friend for a drive to an appointment. I asked him to name his favorite singer from India while I typed it into Slacker search. Slacker played his signer and many similar vocalists from India. At the end of our trip he was wondering if his new Lexus could do the same. He asked me how much it costs to use the superchargers--nothing, how much gas will the Lexus use on a trip to San Francisco I replied. At the end of our drive he was a convert. Tesla may not have all the features of Mercedes or be perfect, but the car is a total blast.

Brian H |
08. Januar 2013

dborn;
minus how much egregious Aus. import duty? (Not that Aus. makes any cars of its own ...)

tork;
+1
But... one quibble. Its a goose pedal #33.

For the delivery and service comments: Tesla was the best on the planet at those -- at low volumes. But it hasn't scaled. Not surprising, multiplying volume per month by about 30 over the course of two or three months. That rate of personnel expansion is almost beyond comprehension or manageability. If TM is now at or near its target rate for, say, the rest of the year, it may catch up. But even that will be a Hurculean task.

Brian H |
08. Januar 2013

PS
Imagine doubling your company's staff ... 5x in the course of one quarter. Then take a stiff one. You'll need it.

dborn @nsw.au |
09. Januar 2013

@brianh - Aus does make cars - GM makes as does Ford. Our tax component is 5% then another 10% followed by another approx 5%. Add shipping and insurance. Still well North of 100000!!

Import duties quoted on the Roadster were on the order of 100%, IIRC. Those you quoted sound like other taxes.

Vawlkus |
09. Januar 2013

I agree with Tork, all to often those whining for X feature just sound like entitled twat donkeys to me. Some do have legitamite concerns, but most are just bellyaching.

dborn @nsw.au |
09. Januar 2013

The roadster was double the price in Australia compared to the USA. $210000.00 Aussie dollars! One contributor was the luxury car tax of 33% applied after the value of 70000 odd dollars. The remainder? God knows, but I assume Tesla profiteering on the international market.

Getting Amped Again |
09. Januar 2013

Vawlkus | January 9, 2013

I agree with Tork, all to often those whining for X feature just sound like entitled twat donkeys to me. Some do have legitamite concerns, but most are just bellyaching.

Well I think you're WAY off base and naive to think that Lexus, BMW, etc. are leaving these features off their inevitable competitors to the Model S. The great majority of "twat donkeys" are following through with their purchase regardless, but they are using this forum to express their desire to have these features added if it can be done via a software update. Many user requests have been incorporated this way already. It is a democratic and useful process.

Adding these features into the Model S and future models is in TM's best interest, not just us "twat donkeys".

BTW - it's "too" and "legitimate".

Charged_Up |
09. Januar 2013

give me a break - the OP is a cool-aid drinker. There are many out there. I'm not and probably a better example of the target demo than most - mercedes driver for 13 years, able to purchase pretty much any car I want (a few decades and lots of hard work behind that statement)and I loved the idea of the advantages of electric from not sending more money to people who want to kill us to cleaner emissions, to less spending needed on military, etc. Guess what - even with all that, I still wanted a car that would compare favorably to what I would consider as a replacement new car - and that means a certain amount of style, luxury, and fit and finish - as well as the proper balance of economy and performance.

Model S came pretty close to being as good as the competition ex the power train - but I would not have bought the car at the price if it was not electric. I'm a happy Signature owner for sure - but there have been some shortcomings that need and deserve to be addressed. Am I upset that these shortcomings exist? not to the point of feeling I got taken in any way. Do I think at the price that Tesla should be able to deliver a better vehicle and better experience? absolutely. That doesn't make me a whiner, it makes me want the business to succeed. But anyone who thinks that all "complaints" are the naggings of spoiled children does not understand the concepts of the value of money, or the value of customer feedback to a business.

Tesla has already listened to many - to their credit and benefit. Can they do better? Sure. And how do they find out how they can do better? By listening to people criticize constructively - and sometimes even just the gripes. Any business owner will tell you that listening to and addressing complaints is a big part of success and anyone who doesn't understand that has never run a sucessful business.

Brian H |
09. Januar 2013

dborn;
Then you're full of it. ALL the extra, aside from freight, is your taxes. Ask GB if you don't believe me. Your insinuations and accusations are offensive.

Motoring |
09. Januar 2013

Tork - Sure I agree with you, and the more money I might have the more I would tend to agree. However, to play devil's advocate, there is the relative sense of value for money. I opine the more $ one may have the more elastic the definition of value may be. A multimillionaire with the consciousness expressed by most on these forums would totally agree with you. A person of considerably less means likely would not agree. One person's $100+K for an new car is another person's life savings and for that the Tesla right now is not a reality. We 'rich' need to lead the way for this to truly be, as Tork says, "Here it is... the car of the future..."

Vawlkus |
10. Januar 2013

@GAS
How is that relevant? I stated I agree with Tork, and added my opinion. How is saying that people are following through on purchases pertinent?

People are complaining about features they KNEW they weren't going to get, some threatening to cancel their orders. That to me is immature temper tantrums like my young nephews throw. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it's still how I perceive such complaints, and still my opinion of them.

I share a lot of these concerns, and started a related but private thread called "On One Hand/On the Other Hand."

I do think it's all going to work out great....

Richard

vouteb |
10. Januar 2013

FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE ARE PAYING, WE SHOULD BE GETTING...........

a car which compares/competes/outshines on ALL FRONTS with similar priced ICE Luxury cars.

That includes 'luxury gizmo's', like parking sensors,etc and Service/Reliability

jandkw |
10. Januar 2013

tork, well said. +1 for me. My S is coming in Feb. and although I didn't spend 100K (60KW for less than 80K). I gave up my order of BMW 5-series and then the Lexus hybrid for the S and still wonder if I made the right choice. The "Car of the Future" and Car of the Year" always encourage me to stay put. I read a lot of Tesla and Tesla Motor Club forums lately and wonder why people are debating about Center Console, vanity mirrors and the like or the lack of. Some people said this is Elon's toy car but I wonder does he listen to customers' complaints and their feedback? I do hope so. I know one thing, as soon as my S delivered, I'll be one of the advocates for Tesla and I hope Elon is listening and I can assure him there are many S owners out there and willing to be Tesla's advocate for years to come. So Elon, please listen to your customers, this is a premium sedan, do not neglect all the basic features and technology of a premium sedan and keep improving what we have. Many of us are also your stock holders and wish Tesla a successful company for many years to come.

djp |
10. Januar 2013

FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE ARE PAYING, WE SHOULD BE GETTING...........

Exactly what we are getting

Edneff |
10. Januar 2013

"For the amount of money we are paying we should be getting" (at a minimum) a certain level of service, regardless of expectations of what the car itself has on it.

I own a Nissan. When I take the car in for service at the Nissan dealer, I get a certain level of service and it is within my expectations. I also own a Lexus. I can tell you with certainty that anyone would be able to tell the difference between the level of service you get at the Lexus place and the level you get at the Nissan dealer.

TM needs to be sure that their customers all get "lexus" treatment at every contact, not "nissan" treatment. While I understand the difficulty in providing that level of service with new employees, it is still of paramount importance that they deliver on that expectation.

dborn @nsw.au |
10. Januar 2013

@ vouteb +1. @Edneff +1. @BrianH. Pull your head in, this is a business not a fan club. There is something called value for money. My reasons for buying? Exactly the same as Charged_Up. Hate supporting my enemies. Every product sold in Australia includes tax in its price by law. The price you see is what you pay. Quite fair to compare one car to another. That is all this is, a car with a different propulsion system.

Rell2g |
10. Januar 2013

I wonder if the same people who constantly complain about TM would feel the same way after handing over $100K for a sub-standard ICE MB, BMW, etc? Somehow I think they wouldn't and if they did it would be secretly