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Welcome to Heresy 207, the latest version of the long-running and rather quirky thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but the Song of Ice and Fire and the apparent threat which lies in the North, hidden in the Haunted Forest and those magical Otherlands which lie beyond the Wall.

The thread is called Heresy because we miserable heretics were the first to challenge the orthodoxy that the Wall is the last best hope of mankind; to question whether the three-fingered tree-huggers really are the kindly elves Bran once thought them to be and above all question too the popular assumption that Jon Snow is some bloke prophesied way out east and known there as Azor Ahai, who is going to ride out of the sunrise on a dragon, save the world by immolating the Icy lot and then ascend the Iron Throne to reign over dust and ashes. Instead we’re increasingly wondering whether the Starks might have a rather dark secret in their past, which some of us are beginning to suspect may be gaunt, with characteristic long Stark face and is very very cold. Winter after all is coming and it aint going to be pretty.

We don’t all of us agree on this, or anything else for that matter, but as a free-ranging discussion group within Westeros we can safely claim to have been around for a while now and discussed an awful lot of stuff over the years since the thread cycle started in late 2011. Some of the ideas have been overtaken by events and some seemingly confirmed by GRRM’s increasingly sparse SSMs and by the earlier stages of the mummers’ version before it firmly moved into weird fan-fiction.

GRRM has also told us that when it comes to writing he is very much a gardener and this thread cycle follows that style, preferring the discussionto be free-ranging and organic in nature rather than fixed in tram lines.

So dig in, enjoy yourself and if it comes to a fight just remember the local house rules; stick to the text, have respect for the ideas of others and above all conduct the debate with great good humour.

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I agree with the latter, but as to the former, whilst the Targaryens are or were looking to find the "Prince" amongst their own, the Red Lot don't seem so particular. While its convenient to refer to Bran as a prince in discussion I think that there is a wider expectation of a chosen or expected one and given the way GRRM constantly warns of dodgy prophecies and and not getting what you expect, I can quite easily see Azor Ahai or the PTWP being something very different from what is expected = but that's something we can explore in Heresy 207

I was not only referring to the fact that Bran cannot fit the narrow constraints of the GoHH, but that he also does not appear to yet align well with any of the other signs and portents of which Aemon and Melisandre speak:

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We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor.

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"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you."

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But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

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"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.

...

Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

The comet, Lightbringer, and dragons are recurring elements; in theory, Bran could fit these qualities if he either skinchanges a dragon or is in some way associated with the eventual emergence of an ice dragon, but for now he seems more like a potential 'Three Heads' candidate than TPTWP specifically.

It might also be reiterated that, while it's not clear whether the Red Priests specifically consider Targaryen or Valyrian blood important, Stannis is a quarter Targaryen, and if Melisandre considered Dragonstone - the traditional seat of the Targaryen heir to the throne - to be a significant element of her interpretation, Dany would have been the 'rightful' Lady of Dragonstone while Viserys was still alive, and when Melisandre was heading westward; in other words, portents that actually pointed to Dany were misattributed to Stannis.

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I agree with the latter, but as to the former, whilst the Targaryens are or were looking to find the "Prince" amongst their own, the Red Lot don't seem so particular. While its convenient to refer to Bran as a prince in discussion I think that there is a wider expectation of a chosen or expected one and given the way GRRM constantly warns of dodgy prophecies and and not getting what you expect, I can quite easily see Azor Ahai or the PTWP being something very different from what is expected = but that's something we can explore in Heresy 207

I actually think Bran fits the prince idea closer than Dany. For one simple reason and I may sound like a broken record now: it is the prince that was promised, not the king that was promised. Of course Dany is also a princess and every dragon is a prince and every Targ is a dragon and maybe a Velaryon is a dragon and thus a prince too.

But our little prince of Winterfell is so far the only one "princed" in the story. Arguably this is thinking outside the story and focusing more on an abstract idea or forshadowing and ignoring our oldtown ghost.

Dany is already queen. and in my mind she would then be the king that was promised.

(another issue I wrap my mind around atm is house Gardener and how their royal bloodline may actually be the core of our story around house Florent and their prominence in the story: Sam, Edric Storm, Shereen and the targ and baratheon imposers matter not ) .

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Dany is already queen. and in my mind she would then be the king that was promised.

By that same token, Stannis is no longer a prince, and arguably, Bran isn't either--Bran is the rightful King of the North until such time as Robb's letter regarding Jon is recognized and implemented...or, alternately, with House Stark having lost the War of the Five Kings, Bran is neither king nor prince. This seems a tricky road to travel.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

He may not be the one true and only prince; the point I was making is that one has been promised and that different factions are each promoting their own.

Fair enough, and it raises some complicated questions.

Are Azor Ahai, The Prince that was Promised, The Stallion that Mounts the World, the prophesied figure the Green Grace references, etc. various iterations of the same figure, making the actual 'details' of this figure nearly impossible to define?

If there are 'Three Heads' of the dragon, are there three prophesied figures, undergoing three personal journeys that terminate in symbolically fulfilling TPtWP prophecy in their own distinct ways? Eg, Dany's 'Lightbringer' is Drogon, Bran's 'Lightbringer' is something involving sorcery, etc.

Is "Prince that was Promised" a role that one is inescapably bound to, an accident of birth, or an empty role heralded by the red comet, and waiting to be filled through will and personal choice? The Forsaken chapter suggests that Euron views the era as an opportunity for ascension, which might relate to TPTWP prophecy.

In any case, I'm more inclined to give credence to the "wake dragons from stone" and "born of the line of Rhaella and Aerys" conditions, if for no other reason than, in their absence, TPtWP becomes nearly indescribable.

As a matter of purely subjective intuition, I believe that Bran is either one of the three heads of the dragon, or that Melisandre's interpretation of what she saw in her fires was actually on the mark: Bran is the enemy of Azor Ahai.

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Just by way of clarification I should point out that the term prince has two meanings. It can be used particularly as a title, eg: Prince of Dragonstone, or, as I think is intended in this case more generally simply to denote a ruler or at least someone of royal blood

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As a matter of purely subjective intuition, I believe that Bran is either one of the three heads of the dragon, or that Melisandre's interpretation of what she saw in her fires was actually on the mark: Bran is the enemy of Azor Ahai.

The latter seems more likely since Azor Ahai is the warrior of fire. The corollary of each faction proclaiming its own prince is that they are inevitably going to fight each other.

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Just by way of clarification I should point out that the term prince has two meanings. It can be used particularly as a title, eg: Prince of Dragonstone, or, as I think is intended in this case more generally simply to denote a ruler or at least someone of royal blood

Modern American and British usage has prince referring to 1st in line to the throne. The Prince of Dragonstone is along this usage, and GRRM is writing for the modern world.

But Prince more correctly refers to a sovereign ruler who doesn't answer to anyone.

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Are Azor Ahai, The Prince that was Promised, The Stallion that Mounts the World, the prophesied figure the Green Grace references, etc. various iterations of the same figure, making the actual 'details' of this figure nearly impossible to define?

If there are 'Three Heads' of the dragon, are there three prophesied figures, undergoing three personal journeys that terminate in symbolically fulfilling TPtWP prophecy in their own distinct ways? Eg, Dany's 'Lightbringer' is Drogon, Bran's 'Lightbringer' is something involving sorcery, etc.

A really simple answer is Rhaego. The dragon/prince. Promised as stallion. First prince, then bronze/golden dragon, then wight if we believe the show.

edit: And I would be ok with Rhaego. No coronation or other title ping pong.

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Modern American and British usage has prince referring to 1st in line to the throne. The Prince of Dragonstone is along this usage, and GRRM is writing for the modern world.

But Prince more correctly refers to a sovereign ruler who doesn't answer to anyone.

Nah, GRRM is well aware of the distinctions and while he is writing for the modern world be employs the older usages to give the books their character. The point is that in seeking the promised hero it will be a mistake to restrict the search to individuals bearing the title "Prince..."

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Nah, GRRM is well aware of the distinctions and while he is writing for the modern world be employs the older usages to give the books their character. The point is that in seeking the promised hero it will be a mistake to restrict the search to individuals bearing the title "Prince..."

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I think all knowledge of the Gate vanished from the Watch long, long before it was abandoned. Thousands of years ago.

The premise that Gared knew of it has always seemed doubtful. If anyone in the Watch knew it was there, steps would have been taken to seal or defend it against Mance... who conspicuously never used or even mentioned it when attacking the Wall.

As for the idea a direwolf moved from north of the Wall to south of the Wall, GRRM has explicitly told us that direwolves were hunted to extinction north of the Wall...

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Shaw: Is there any reason why you never hear of direwolves north of the Wall?

Martin: They're an extinct animal in that part.

I didn't know he said that. It is oddly contradictory since as Black Crow points out, the Watch hears direwolves north of the Wall. It does seem more logical that they were hunted to extinction south of the Wall. Leaf does say that they are one of the old races that are close to becoming extinct. So I don't know what to make of it.

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I didn't know he said that. It is oddly contradictory since as Black Crow points out, the Watch hears direwolves north of the Wall. It does seem more logical that they were hunted to extinction south of the Wall. Leaf does say that they are one of the old races that are close to becoming extinct. So I don't know what to make of it.

Well it was a transcript of an interview so there's plenty of scope for a mix up, like confusing right and left.

The short answer though, as I said, it can't be regarded as a definitive statement since it is very clearly contradicted by the text, and so far as paying your money and taking your pick is concerned, the text makes more sense than the slip. Shaw's question is wrong since we do hear of direwolves north of the Wall.

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A really simple answer is Rhaego. The dragon/prince. Promised as stallion. First prince, then bronze/golden dragon, then wight if we believe the show.

I agree that the prophecy of the stallion that mounts the world is probably another version of the PwiP. At any rate, it's a conqueror who is promised.

That would seem to line up with Rhaegar's three heads. He has named his first two offspring after Aegon the Conqueror and one of his sisters. It seems logical that his third head is meant to be 'Visenya'.

Meliandre is also looking for a warrior or conqueror in her version, the Prince of Dragonstone - King's blood and possibly a descendent of Garth.

Conqueror and savior if Benerro and Moqorro are to be believed.

In Aemon's interpretation; it's a dragon that is promised, a princess, someone with Targ blood.

I'll add Prince Doran, since all rulers of Dorne are styled princes rather than kings. He makes an effort to tie up all the offspring of Aerys/Rhaella with marriage contracts and is looking for something at the Citadel. I'm guessing he thinks the PwiP comes from a match between Dornish and Targ bloodlines.

Bran styles himself Prince of the Greenwood rather than King in the North or Prince of Winterfell. I agree that the cotf have been waiting for him for a long time, that he has been promised to them.

Jon is likely a prince as well, bastard or no, he is king's blood whether that is Stark, Targ or something else. Ned makes promises to Lyanna about something.

Ned's dreams probably have something to do with the promised prince:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

- a storm of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death: wights and white walkers

- a blood streaked sky: the red comet - dragons, Dany

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

- three knights in white cloaks: I am the sword, the shield and the horn

- a tower long fallen: the First Keep, Broken Tower at Winterfell - Bran

- Lyanna in her bed of blood - Jon

By my reckoning there are four promised princes: Aegon, Jon, Bran and Dany.

I'll leave Euron out of it; since I think he is the Storm God come again.

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Well it was a transcript of an interview so there's plenty of scope for a mix up, like confusing right and left.

The short answer though, as I said, it can't be regarded as a definitive statement since it is very clearly contradicted by the text, and so far as paying your money and taking your pick is concerned, the text makes more sense than the slip. Shaw's question is wrong since we do hear of direwolves north of the Wall.

It does sound like a senior moment.

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"It would be my pleasure." Pylos was a polite youth, no more than five-and-twenty, yet solemn as a man of sixty. If only he had more humor, more life in him; that was what was needed here. Grim places needed lightening, not solemnity, and Dragonstone was grim beyond a doubt, a lonely citadel in the wet waste surrounded by storm and salt, with the smoking shadow of the mountain at its back. A maester must go where he is sent, so Cressen had come here with his lord some twelve years past, and he had served, and served well. Yet he had never loved Dragonstone, nor ever felt truly at home here. Of late, when he woke from restless dreams in which the red woman figured disturbingly, he often did not know where he was.

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A Storm of Swords - Davos III

Were my sons no more than a lesson for a king, then? Davos felt his mouth tighten.

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."

So one reason why Melisandre chooses Stannis. She is looking for a place of smoke and salt.

Aemon thinks the same thing but factors in salt tears:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

Marwyn adds the bleeding star:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

He was not a man to be refused. Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall."

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

Benerro and Haldon:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

"Her. Daenerys?"

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"

"Do I have to be reborn in this same body?" asked Tyrion. The crowd was growing thicker. He could feel them pressing in around them. "Who is Benerro?"

Melisandre adds waking dragons out of stone:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt."

Jon restates the prophecy:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—"

"A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"

All of this is a reinterpretation of the older prophecy:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

"The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"

"Do I have to be reborn in this same body?" asked Tyrion. The crowd was growing thicker. He could feel them pressing in around them. "Who is Benerro?"

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

The hairs on the back of Tyrion's neck began to prickle. Prince Aegon will find no friend here. The red priest spoke of ancient prophecy, a prophecy that foretold the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to foresee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targaryen. Griff will see that too, surely, he thought, surprised to find how much he cared.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt."

Jon had heard all this before. "Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Dragonstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm's End, like his brothers." He frowned. "And what of Mance? Is he lost as well? What do your fires show?"

The prophecy actually states:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the starsbleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

We're not talking about a single star or comet, but bleeding stars. I think this points to the Warrior's Sons who carve bloody stars into their flesh. Of course the comet could be significant to the Warrior's Sons as a herald and the reason why they carve a bloody star into the flesh.

Aemon combines being born in a place of salt and smoke (Dragonstone) and born amidst salt tears and the smoke of Summerhall perhaps the reason why Rhaegar initially thought he was the PwiP, later learning that he was not but must take his place as a 'warrior'. He later amends that to his son Aegon who is born the day of a comet's (or falling star) appearance on Dragonstone.

Dany is the one who wakes the dragon, one of Melisndre's theme. This seems to be an internal spiritual process more than anything. Her flesh is so hot, that her tears steam off her cheeks.

Another place of smoke and salt is the Quiet Isle with their smoking bee hives and salt flats.

The Wall itself stores blocks of salt and has it's own smoke house. It seems significant to me that Bran tastes the Drowned God's salty kiss when he passes through the Black Gate. A drop of water like a salt tear and Jon lies bleeding while his blood smokes in the cold at the end of Dance.

'Waking the Dragon" is a thing. Viserys threatens to do it; Aerys dreams of doing it; Melisandre claims she can do it (to Stannis); Dany actually does it.

Tyrion asks the relevant question: Do you have to be reborn in the same body? Jorah as well when he asks Dany if she can wake the dead. While Bran is warned about waking the dead.

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"—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort. "It glimmers prettily, I'll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?"

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

"He sounds an utter fool."

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen. When I sent ships to bring her home, she turned toward Slaver's Bay. In a short span of days she conquered Astapor, made Yunkai bend the knee, and sacked Meereen. Mantarys will be next, if she marches west along the old Valyrian roads. If she comes by sea, well … her fleet must take on food and water at Volantis."