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UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSITY
Utah Valley University Library
George Sutherland Archives & Special Collections
Oral History Program
Utah Women’s Walk Oral Histories
Directed by Michele Welch
Interview with Doris Judd
by
Taylor Judd
November 8, 2011
Utah Women’s Walk
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Doris Okerlund Judd
Interviewer:
Taylor Judd
Place of Interview:
George Sutherland Archives, UVU, Orem, Utah
Date of Interview:
8 November 2011
Recordist:
Brent Seavers
Recording Equipment:
Zoom Recorder H4n
Transcription Equipment:
Express Scribe
Transcribed by:
Allison Hatch
Audio Transcription Edit:
Kimberly Williamson; Lisa McMullin
Reference:
DJ = Doris Judd (Interviewee)
TJ = Taylor Judd (Interviewer)
MW = Michele Welch (Director, Utah Women’s Walk)
ThJ = Thayne Judd (Interviewee’s husband)
Brief Description of Contents:
Doris Judd talks about her early years growing up in the small town of Loa, Utah and her father herding sheep for a living. She describes her tightly knit family who were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and her parents stressing the importance of education. She shares her experiences attending Southern Utah University, meeting her husband, Thayne Judd and their years traveling in the Air Force. She expresses her love and appreciation for her three children and eleven grandchildren along with the opportunity to service in various roles in the Church.
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as uh and false starts and starts and stops in conversations are not included in this transcript. Changes by interviewee are incorporated in text. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Clarifications and additional information are footnoted.1 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
Audio Transcription
[00:00]
Beginning of interview
TJ: My name is Taylor Judd. We are here at the UVU [Utah Valley University] Library at the archives, and I am here to interview my grandmother Doris Judd. Today is November 8, 2011. How are you doing today, Grammy?
DJ: I am doing well, thank you, dear.
TJ: (laughs) I guess, let's just get started. Where were you born, Grammy?
DJ: I was born in Salina, Utah.
TJ: Salina, Utah.
DJ: The reason being, I grew up in Loa, Utah, and there was no doctor there; so Salina is sixty miles away and so whenever we needed a doctor that’s where we went.
TJ: Wow. How did the Depression affect your family life?
DJ: Well, I think the Depression was over before I was born, but there was residual effect because we didn’t have a lot of the bounties of life.
TJ: Okay and you have often told us kids stories about how your childhood was different than our childhood. This is not on the paper, but could you maybe give us one example of how you said that you didn't have the typical bounties of life—maybe what us grandkids have had?
DJ: Well, I do need to say that I think my parents were wonderful. We didn’t know that we didn’t have a lot because they worked hard to provide what we needed. My mother made all our clothes; she was a beautiful seamstress. But it was different, in that, I don't think we had a television until I was in high school. It didn’t come to the county or a phone. We communicated by walking to places or riding our bikes.
TJ: A lot different than today's age.
DJ: Yes.
TJ: Well, let's talk a little bit more about your family. Tell me about, for example, your family structure, like your parents' siblings, how many brothers and sisters you had, and where you fall in that order.
DJ: I have three older sisters, I am the fourth girl, and then we have one brother, and he is the youngest in the family. We had very good relationships. I would say that we were a very 2 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
close family when we were growing up. We played together and sometimes quarreled together. (laughter) But we had a good family. We knew our parents loved us.
TJ: That’s good. What types of things did you do around the house growing up to help? I mean, I know that you had that farm lifestyle, so what types of things would you do for your daily chores every day.
DJ: My earliest memory, I must have been about four years old, I remember bringing in chips and coal because we had a coal-burning stove in the kitchen and what was called a heat-a-rolla in the living room. We didn’t have a furnace in our house, and so every day we brought in chips and coal. Daddy would chop the wood, and we’d gather chips in a bucket and coal, as we got older and able to lift the bucket. Course, we didn’t have a dishwasher; we washed dishes [by hand and played word games as we did].
[00:26]
I don’t know if I can tell you one game, whether it would be appropriate. (laughter) Oh, we played an alphabet game. We’d think of people in our little town and give descriptions and say, “this is their initial, guess who it is.” While we were doing dishes, we’d do that.
We played another game—and maybe we will edit this after I tell it if it’s not appropriate. There was a man in our town named Dow P. Brian, and we made it a game to say things like, Wow, I saw Dow P. at the post office, and then we’d laugh. It didn’t matter how many times we’d play this game, or uhm I saw Dow P. at church. We entertained ourselves like that with games. And outside we had, especially in the summer, the service station was across the street, and we’d bring an old tire and leaves and some wood and build a fire. Believe it or not, we put potatoes in to roast. They tasted like rubber, and very often they weren't done. But while they were cooking and while the fire was burning we played night games like Run My Sheepy Run and Hide-and-Seek, and—
TJ: Kick the Can?
DJ: Kick the Can, Annie-Eye-Over.
TJ: Cool. Thanks for that. Grammy, your father was a sheepherder. What fond memories do you have of that and what was it like?
DJ: Well, first of all, I'd like to say I love my father so much. I spent time with him at his sheep herd, but before I tell you what we did there—another one of my early memories—and I must have been a small girl. Daddy would be gone a lot, and then one day I saw him galloping on his horse down past Hans Olyer's house. I ran in the house and said, "Daddy's coming in on a wing and a prayer." I just remember we all ran out, and he’d jump off his horse so happy to see us because it might have been weeks that he’d been gone. I think we each took turns staying with him, and sometimes we were in a tent and sometimes we were in a sheep wagon. I don’t know why we weren’t always in the sheep 3 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
wagon, but he would go to tend the sheep, and I would play around the area by myself. I liked to pretend I was Roy Rogers, and so I’d gallop around saving the world. One day, I remember I had holes in the bottom of my shoes. I wore a lot of hand-me-downs. Mama had put cardboard in the bottom of the shoe, but it had worn through. I ran through—chasing outlaws—a patch of prickly pear cactus and had the spines in my feet. I remember Daddy coming back at lunch and putting me on his lap. He took his pocketknife, pulled out the spines, and put more paper in the bottom of my shoe. Another memory I have—Mama had brought me out in the truck with the supplies. I remember her saying to Daddy—she had a jar of marshmallow cream, which was really a treat. My father's name is Melvin, and she said, "Now, Melvin, this is just for your hot cocoa, don't you just eat this.” Daddy had a real sweet tooth, as do I, and I just thought he was so brave. We could see the taillights of the truck—he got two spoons, and we ate the whole jar of marshmallow cream. (laughter) I thought, oh you know, Mother could be quite stern, and I thought, Oh, he's so brave. (laughter)
TJ: If I remember right, wasn't it because your dad was a sheepherder off Parker Mountain—
isn't that what influenced my parents to name my little brother Parker? Is that right?
DJ: Yes. He did run sheep on Boulder Mountain as well, but then he ran cattle and sheep on Parker. Parker Mountain was probably his favorite place; he loved Parker Mountain, and so that’s because Parker's mother, Julene—her mother's maiden name is Parks, and so I think he's named after both families.
TJ: Cool, and I think Parker's a better name than Boulder.
DJ: Right.
TJ: Grammy, in your opinion and I am actually really looking forward to this question: what is the biggest difference in a child's upbringing when you were growing up and a child's upbringing in today's age? What influence do you think that has had on society either good or bad? What’s your opinion?
DJ: Well, I do think it’s quite different, I mean, with the people that I know. Certainly, there is more affluence, more of the things of the world, more bounty maybe than necessity. I think, as I said before, we didn’t have television or phones for a long time. We played games; we played outside; we rode our bikes all over town. We were just, kind of free to make our own fun. I think today, the things I’ve noticed with grandchildren for instance, are they concentrate more on electronic games and the computer and things. It’s just a different age. I am sure there are advantages to both types, but I just somehow think childhood for me maybe was more free. Although, having said that, I do believe children today have so many advantages—to learn dance or piano or singing, and things that maybe we didn’t have the opportunity to do. I think you can find good in both ways of life.
TJ: Awesome. Speaking about your childhood, is there one experience from your early beginnings that you think prepared you for your life work as a mother and a homemaker?4 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well, my mother taught us to work, and my mother taught us kindness. She had a fondness for the underdog, I think. My mother was adopted as an infant. Although her parents loved her—and they were elderly when they took her into their home—she had a feeling for people, like I said, the underdog. She taught us to be kind. She wasn’t a really great cook. (laughs) But she always made it clear—both she and Daddy made it clear. She never said, “If you go to college” or to my brother, “If you go on a mission.” It was, “Now when you go to college.” Education was important to her. She taught me how to make bread. She didn’t teach me to sew, which I don't have an inclination for that. She had four girls. She made our formals; she made our dresses—everything. I just think she didn’t have the patience—if she had four dresses to make to do that. She didn’t teach me that. She had a wonderful sense of humor and a positive outlook, and I think she gave me that. I hope she did.
TJ: (laughs) That’s great, and I can say the same thing about my own mom. I think that leads us into the next question about who were the women that you admired as you were growing up.
DJ: Well, certainly my mother. I had a teacher at school in elementary school that I loved. She was kind and encouraged me in things. Her name was Mrs. Chappell. Actually, I had two Mrs. Chappell’s that I liked. I had a very close relationship with my sisters growing up. My older sister, I think, has always been my best friend, and she influenced me a lot.
TJ: Grammy, how and when did you meet Thayne, and what attracted you to him?
DJ: Well, we met on the north rim of the Grand Canyon. I was working there after my freshman year of college. He came to date another girl Kay Ashcroft (laughs) and brought a friend. I went with his friend, and he took Kaye Ashcroft. But the next time he came out to Grand Canyon—he grew up in Kanab; so it was eighty miles away. He came to see me. (laughter) We started dating. We had, I think one or two dates there. I was a sophomore in college, and he was a freshman. In the olden days, it was called CSU, now it’s SUU [Southern Utah University] in Cedar City, [Utah] and we started dating then. We had a Book of Mormon class together at the institute. I was attracted to him; first of all he was really handsome—still is. He’s a great dancer; we love to dance together. I think that’s really where we made a connection.
TJ: Wow. Good, because I never knew that, like how you two met. Thanks for that. Where and when did you get married and what was your early marriage life like?
DJ: We were married in the Manti Temple on September 10, 1960. We just celebrated our fifty-first wedding anniversary. We were both students at Utah State, and we lived in a tiny little, old, old apartment in Logan. Our parents helped us a lot with food. I mean whenever we’d go home they would send a box of food back—meat or whatever, bottled peaches. They helped us a lot. I worked in the president's office. I ran the switchboard for several hours every day, which gave us a little money. I think our apartment was 5 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
forty dollars a month, which was thirty and then we rented a refrigerator. We bought the ugliest sofa you have ever seen in your life for four dollars. (laughter) But everybody we knew was in the very same situation. We had good friends who were students, and on weekends, nobody had any money, so we would play games and visit. It was really a great time. We liked it a lot.
TJ: It’s a lot like me now on weekends. I don’t have any money, so I guess we will make our own fun.
DJ: There you go. (laughs) Some things never change.
TJ: Your husband, Thayne, was in the [US] Air Force. Tell me about what your favorite part was and your least favorite part about having a husband in the air force.
DJ: Well, I will tell you the least favorite first. He was gone a lot. Sometimes he would be gone for several months, sometimes for a few weeks or days. During the Vietnam War, he left to go to Southeast Asia three weeks before our youngest child, Scott, was born. As I look back, I think that’s the hardest part, but at the time it’s just how life was. We adjusted to that. I don’t know that it seemed really hard because you just take it day by day. As I look back, I think that was the hardest. I was thinking about this question and my favorite and another least favorite part are kind of the same. It was hard to leave friends and homes and neighbors that we learned to love. That was a hard part when it was time to move, but on the other hand, it was also an adventure, so I think that was my favorite part. We had wonderful experiences. We lived in Taiwan for two years, and I absolutely loved that. That was such a choice experience in my life. We made friends wherever we went. We had opportunities to serve in the Church,1 and I think we had personal growth through that. While sometimes it was hard to leave, it was an adventure.
TJ: Great. I think that kind of leads us into our next question. What types of challenges did you face with raising your children? Did that have an effect in any way?
DJ: Well, I don’t know that it did because that was our life. That was just what was normal to us.
TJ: Okay.
DJ: But we tried to teach our children. We tried to make so that it didn’t matter where you lived, but what kind of home you had. As we moved, we tried to make—as I say, an adventure. I did learn—Thayne would go and have a new job and be busy. I learned that my responsibility was to have a positive outlook about it. Sometimes a mother has to pretend. I mean my heart could be breaking because I was leaving dear friends or a place I loved. But for the sake of our children it needed to be an adventure. I don’t think it was any harder to raise our children moving than it was if we stayed in one place because we just lived life as it was.
1. Doris refers to the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.6 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
TJ: Okay, awesome. Grammy, you have also served in many Church callings. Tell me about the most significant ones and any experiences that you can recall.
DJ: Well, I have had lots of Church callings. I was thinking about that, and we were stationed on Guam also for two years. I would like to say that I loved every place except Guam. If you’ve moved eighteen times or so that’s not a bad record because I didn’t like Guam. (laughs) I was the Relief Society2 president for the district there; they had branches. Every year they had on the twenty-fourth of July3 on the island they had what was called the Mormon run. We were preparing for that, and we handed out all the food for the Relief Society presidents and the people in the branches to make. It was fried chicken and potato salad. Well, then we got a typhoon warning. It was supposed to hit the island that very day. Now, you can freeze chicken, but you can’t freeze potato salad. I was up and down the island delivering potato salad. Then we postponed it for a few weeks. I think we had beans or something instead of potato salad.
I really, really believe the most significant calling I had and one that was such a choice experience for me, we had together. We were called because we’re retired military. At that time, it was a new program in the Church. We were called [as missionaries] to go to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, an army post, and minister to the needs of the LDS soldiers there. As it turned out, we had many more non-LDS soldiers than we did LDS. But it was so wonderful; it was just perfect for us. We were there eighteen months. Every week I took pictures. I sent emails. I sent letters to wives, to mothers, to girlfriends. Every Sunday, we could have a hundred soldiers filing in. I could be shaking hands—they were in their BDUs, their battle dress uniforms, coming in single file. I was smiling saying, “We're so glad you are here.” On this shoulder, I’d have a soldier just sobbing. I’d say, “It’s okay; it's okay we’re so glad you’re here. It’s okay; it’s okay,” because it was hard. He was sick or homesick or something. I think out of all the Church service I’ve given, I felt like that was perfect for me. I just loved that because we have such a special feeling for these young men and women in the military. Then we served another mission.
We went to just a short mission for four months to the Kirtland [Ohio] sites. We were at the John Johnson home, and I loved that too.
[20:40]
TJ: That’s great, and recently, Thayne has been called as your stake patriarch.4 We think that’s great. What blessings do you think have come into your life from that, or what feelings do you have towards that?
2. The Relief Society is the official women's organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
3. July twenty-fourth is a Utah state holiday commemorating the day the Utah pioneers entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847.
4. A patriarch is a male member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who has been called to provide individual blessings for members of the LDS Church.7 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well, I was set apart as the transcriber and the recorder, and that’s been a blessing. I think it brings a special spirit in our home when we have these young people coming. We are so happy to welcome them to our home. I am happy to support him and help him with that.
TJ: Great. Grammy, what do you feel has been your most significant trial in your life, and what it’s done for you?
DJ: Well, probably when my father died. He died in 1973, but it was a shock to us. I just think we hadn’t ever—I don’t know you have a tendency to think your parents will never die. But that was hard for me. Thayne was stationed at the Pentagon then; we lived in northern Virginia. I was away from family. We went home for a week, of course, for his funeral, and then came back to Virginia. I didn’t see anybody from my family for a year. I mean, we talked all the time on the phone. I think that was hard for me. We had just barely moved into a home, and Thayne was busy working ten or fourteen hours a day. I suffered from that. I think that was probably the hardest thing.
TJ: I can only imagine how hard that would be being away from family and having that happen. Grammy, are there any other words of wisdom, maxims, or maybe a verse of scripture that you have lived your life by?
DJ: Well, I don’t know how well I have lived my life by it. (laughter) I have two favorite scriptures. The first is in Mosiah chapter 18 verses5—I wrote it down; can I just look on my note? It talks about being of service to each other, to love one another, to bear each other's burdens, and to be worthy to be called children of God. I truly believe that being of service to others is what will bring great joy. I don’t know how well I have lived that, but I think it’s important. Then I had an experience when we were at Fort Sill with the soldiers. This scripture would come to my mind. I told you they filed in, in their battle dress uniform, and the thought would come to me: they had spent the week learning how to put on the armor of man, and they’re coming to us today to help them learn how to put on the armor of God.
And so Ephesians chapter 66 is another favorite of mine because I think in today's world, if we make it through to be the kind of people we want to be, we do have to put on the whole armor of God. So those are my two favorite scriptures. I have another saying I—my husband doesn't think I live this, but I do. I read something once that said, “Change is inevitable; growth is optional.” I think especially as we moved so many times and had so many different opportunities, it was up to us to make growth because change is going to happen no matter what.
TJ: Just responding to that question, Grammy, I think you are the epitome of living that verse in Mosiah. You are always serving our family when you would come and tend us five
5. Doris refers to scriptural verses found in the Book of Mormon.
6. Doris refers to scriptural verses found in the Bible.8 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
noisy, loud grandkids that are always on their cell phones or running out the door. Thanks for your wonderful example in that. Grammy, what would you like to be remembered most for?
DJ: That I made it through. (laughter) Well, I would like to be remembered by my family and my neighbors and friends that I was a good person. That I loved people, and that I did do service. I hope that I’ll be remembered like that.
TJ: Well, good, mission accomplished. You already have that going for you. What advice, Grammy, do you have for younger women in Utah today?
DJ: I think education is very important. I would encourage young women to follow a path where they can learn important things—the things they are interested in and things that will help others. I would encourage young women to be strong against the things in the world that are not proper. I would suggest to young mothers that they remember that they are the parent. It’s wonderful to be good friends with your children, but it’s very important to be the parent and to know that it’s your responsibility to teach them. I would suggest that they learn to communicate with their friends, with their husband, with their children. I think that’s one of the most important things we can do.
TJ: Would you suggest for the young women of today to also date your grandson?
DJ: I would try to line them up.
TJ: (laughs)
DJ: I gave you pictures. (laughter)
TJ: Grammy, what would you like to accomplish during these later years of your life, and what do you do that’s fulfilling now?
DJ: Well, I work in the Manti Temple two days a week. That’s very fulfilling; I like that a lot. I would hope that I could continue to be an influence on our grandchildren. I think in today's world it’s important that young people know of everyone who loves them. I would hope to be an influence—and have them listen to me when I give them pictures of girls that are nice.
TJ: (laughs) Grammy, is there anything else that you would like to have recorded, I guess, is something that we haven’t gone over?
DJ: No.
TJ: No? (laughter) Well, is there any other questions or comments?
MW: Well, I have a few if that’s okay. Are you okay? Take a drink and breathe for a minute. Taylor, you did a great job. I’m going to ask some follow-up questions if that’s okay.9 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
ThJ: Can I suggest a couple stories she forgot?
MW: Yes, yes.
ThJ: The coal oil.
DJ: Oh. Yes, my mother had the supplies on our front porch that she was taking to the sheep herd for Daddy. I was on the front porch and she said, "Now, you stay out of those." But there was a root beer bottle, and I thought, Oh, I'll just take one little swallow. Well, it didn’t have root beer in it; it had coal oil. I don’t know why I am alive today. It was so awful and then there was peanut butter, so I took a big glob of peanut butter to try to get the coal oil taste out my mouth. I was burping peanut butter and coal oil for days. I never did tell my mother. (laughter)
MW: How old were you when that happened?
DJ: I must have been—I was old enough to know better, but I must have been eight or nine, I think.
ThJ: Willow.
[30:05]
DJ: Oh, my mother would send us out when we needed a spanking, which I seemed to need quite often it seems, to get our own willow. I thought the tiniest one would be better. (laughter)
TJ: You can swing it faster.
DJ: It hurts worse. Is that it?
MW: Tell us about the ages in your family—you have the three older—
DJ: I have three older sisters; my oldest sister is seven years older and then four and a half years older, and two years older.
MW: So, Anne [Leavitt] is the oldest.
DJ: Anne is the oldest and then Jane and then Fawn Rae and then me, and then my brother David is four years younger. I remember when David was born; I was four. We didn’t have phones; there were very few phones in the whole town. Darella Bowms had a phone. Daddy called her to come and tell us that our brother had been born. I remember Fawnie and I put a kitchen chair in the middle of the floor and took turns jumping off. That was our celebration. (laughter) 10 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
David was born prematurely, and so he didn’t get to come home from the hospital for a couple of months. He was born in October; it’s very cold where we grew up in Loa. The elevation's almost eight thousand feet. Well, in November Daddy and Mama had gone to get David; we thought he was coming home. In the meantime, we were all home waiting. Fawnie and Jane were usually the ones who would quarrel. They were next to each other in age. I can’t remember if it was Jane that threw the shoe or Fawnie that threw the shoe, but whoever it was threw a shoe at—let’s say Fawnie threw the shoe at Jane and Jane ducked, and it went through our plate glass window, our front window. I remember Anne, who was always in charge saying, "Our brother's coming home, and he's going to die because it will be too cold." We were all just sobbing, and we taped newspaper up to the windows. Mama and Daddy came home from Salina, and luckily, David wasn’t ready to come home yet. I remember Jane who had rheumatic fever; she was quite sickly. Somehow, she had five dollars; I don’t know where—but I remember her offering to give the five dollars to repair the window. I would like to say that was another reason I believe that Ann and I are so close. Mama was busy taking care of Jane. She had rheumatic fever and Bright’s Disease. Ann always took care of me, and she still does.
MW: Doris, did you give us your birth date?
DJ: I didn’t.
MW: Exactly. Can you give us your birth date?
DJ: I was born August 28, 1939.
MW: Was it in a hospital in Loa?
DJ: Yes—no, in Salina.
MW: In Salina, okay.
ThJ: Baptism.
[33:21]
DJ: Oh. When it was time for me to be baptized, we didn’t have a font in the chapel. I was baptized in the Loa fish hatchery. They cleaned out one of the runs, of course. It was on my father's birthday, September seventh. Then we got dressed in a big, long warehouse kind of thing. I was getting dressed, and Darrell Taylor also got baptized that day. He came in and saw me in my underwear. I was just mortified. (laughter)
A year or so later, I got hit by a car running—We lived on Main Street. [Mama] always said, “Do not run across the street, always look.” Well, I’d been roller-skating over at Donna Taylor's house and came home. I took my roller skates off, and I was running across the road. I looked and here came a car—Silas Tanner—it wasn’t going very fast, but it hit me. I rolled down the highway, got up, and ran in the house. Mama was white 11 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
as a ghost. I was bleeding. She said, "What happened, what happened?" I said, "I fell down," because she had always told me to look both ways. I was afraid she would spank me. (laughter) I lied so that she wouldn’t know that I ran across the road. But of course, the man came in and—but there again Darrell Taylor played a part because they came over to see my injuries. My mother pulled my pants down to show him my scrapes and cuts.
MW: (laughs) Who was Darrell Taylor?
DJ: Well, he was a neighbor across the street my same age. In fact, I should have said that when we were playing—we played cowboys and outlaws, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, and Dale Evans. We’d gallop around and pretend that we were that. Donna Taylor was two years younger and she was such a tomboy, and she wouldn’t play if she didn’t get to be Roy Rogers. Sometimes I had to be Dale Evans so Donna would play. (laughter)
ThJ: Treehouse.
DJ: We also—oh—we also climbed trees. Lola Ann, a neighbor across the street south, had a granary, and we had a playhouse in the top of it. It was really cute, and I had just swept it out one day. It had a ladder to get up, I mean, the steps were a ladder. Merley Erickson came and threw a bucket of dirt after we’d just swept. My jump rope was right there, and I threw it around his neck and pushed him off. (laughter)
TJ: What?
DJ: We used to say, “Those Erickson kids are so mean.” Actually, as we talk about the things we did as children, the Okerlund children were fairly mean, too. (laughter)
MW: So where did you graduate from high school? What was the name of it?
DJ: I graduated from Wayne High School in 1957.
MW: What subjects did you enjoy?
DJ: I liked, let's see, boys. (laughter) I liked English, and I didn’t like math. I liked social studies.
TJ: In high school, I remember seeing some type of poster downstairs in the basement. Weren't you a homecoming queen or something?
DJ: That was in college.
TJ: That was in college. Oh, that’s even cooler. (laughs)
MW: Tell us about some of the honors and things that you’ve had.12 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well—
MW: Start young and just tell us all the honors if you don’t mind. What did you do in high school?
DJ: I was a cheerleader. I was the yearbook editor. I was in FHA, Future Homemakers of America. I got good grades. I graduated—I was class officer in my sophomore and senior years. It was a small high school. There were only forty-two people in my graduating class so I didn’t have a lot of competition. My first two years of college were at CSU in Cedar City, which is now SUU. I was a cheerleader there as well. I was voted homecoming queen my freshman year. Oh, I went to girl's state when I was in high school. I haven’t thought about these things for a long time.
MW: So you were a leader in your high school in lots of different areas.
DJ: I think I was, yes. When I was in college, I worked in the—I always worked. My parents worked hard to put us all through college. At one point, Daddy and Mama had three daughters in college.
MW: What did you do?
DJ: When I was in Cedar City, I worked at the college bookstore, which was really a fun place because that’s where all the students congregated. I really liked that a lot.
TJ: Saw a lot of boys?
DJ: Saw a lot of boys.
MW: I am interested more about your marriage and your courtship. What dances did you do and music did you enjoy listening to?
TJ: They are really good at the jitterbug.
DJ: We jitterbugged. We still do.
TJ: (laughs) They still do every Christmas.
DJ: We get out of breath a little earlier these days, (laughs) but we just liked the fifties music. We went to movies. Oh, one time we were laying, not laying, sitting on the lawn by the girls’ dorm talking. I was trying to impress him; we had just started dating. We were sitting there talking, I was trying to be charming, and a bird (clapping) right on my forehead and it ran down my nose. [He laughed] so hard. I thought he'd have a stroke or something. (laughter)
MW: That’s funny. Do you remember any music, a song? Did you have a special song or any group that you particularly liked?13 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well, when I was in high school I liked Elvis Presley and I liked—I can't remember who the group was, but they sang, “You, You, You.” I just cannot remember the names. I'd have to think about that.
MW: That’s okay.
ThJ: Glen Miller.
DJ: Oh yeah, we love Glen Miller because he’s so good to dance to.
MW: Tell me about graduating from college. Did you graduate from Utah State?
DJ: Yes.
MW: What propelled you to go north?
DJ: Well, two of my sisters had gone to Utah State, and the thing that made that happen I believe, is Jane was going to Utah State and my Aunt Berta said to my mother, "Well, all good girls go to BYU." My mother said, "I have four good girls and none of them will go to BYU,” I think just because Aunt Berta said that. (laughter) We just ended up there. I graduated from Utah State.
MW: With what degree?
DJ: A social work degree. I liked being at Utah State. I really got good grades in my senior year because we were married. Thayne studied a lot, and so I did too.
MW: So you were married in your senior year?
DJ: We were married right before my senior year and graduated in June. I was pregnant with our daughter Julie when I graduated.
MW: Tell us about the births of each of your children and a little bit about them right now.
DJ: Well, Julie is our oldest. She was born in Logan, and she was just always a very precocious child. She lives in Orem now. She’s always worked; right now she’s working as Stephen Covey's personal assistant. She’s a very—she’s a person I really admire too, along with both of our daughters-in-law. I think they have added to my life because I can follow their example. I think they’re all three wonderful women. Julie is accomplished, and I think she’s kind and good. Gary—
MW: What year was Julie, what year?
DJ: Julie was born in 1961.14 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
MW: Did you have an easy labor, delivery, and pregnancy?
DJ: Well, I loved being pregnant. I was sick. In fact, I remember once I had an eight o'clock class, and I would wake up in the morning and eat a saltine cracker so I wouldn’t throw up. I was in class and if you have ever had dry heaves—I could feel it coming, but there wasn’t a thing I could do about it I just (making gagging sound) right in class. I had a sociology class from Dr. Saunders, and his daughter was my friend. I didn’t think anybody knew I was pregnant. He said to her, "Would you tell that girl it’s all right to leave class. She looks green." (laughter)
TJ: Isn't there a story, Grammy, of when—I can't remember if you were pregnant with my dad or Scott when all you wanted was a red Popsicle, and you stopped at a gas station.
DJ: It was with Julie. I was pregnant with Julie and actually, it was an orange Popsicle. We were on our way to Cedar City. Thayne's friend was getting married, and we stopped at Cove Fort. At that time, they had a little store there. I wanted an orange Popsicle so bad, and he came out with a red one because I think they didn’t have orange, but I cried. (laughter) I just needed that orange Popsicle. Then Gary—
MW: What year was Gary born?
DJ: —he was born in 1963. I do need to say one thing about Julie's birth. She was born on October twenty-third is when she was born, but on October twenty-first, I sat through three hours of Spartacus, the movie Spartacus. On Saturday morning, I got up at four o'clock to fix a lunch for Thayne. He was going deer hunting with his brother. My water broke and his brother came. He was going to go. I just said, "You can't go" and so he stayed. Then his brother came home at eight o'clock and had his deer. That has always been (click). I called the doctor and he said, "Come in on Sunday if you haven't started labor. I'm sure you will, but come in." Well, I had not, so he gave me a shot and told me to go home and take castor oil with orange juice. All we had was apricot nectar that Thayne's mother had bottled. I mixed castor oil with that and drank it. I started in labor on Sunday afternoon and—we were laughing about this the other day. We called a neighbor of ours who was an orderly at the hospital and said, “My pains are four minutes apart. Do you think I should go to the hospital?” And so we did, Sunday night at eight o'clock. She wasn’t born until two o'clock Monday afternoon. She took a while.
Gary was also born in Logan in 1963, August fourth, and I took castor oil again. He was really an easy birth; I think it was four hours. Then three weeks after that’s when Thayne—I mean, he had been commissioned in the air force at graduation. But we weren’t in the air force until three weeks after both of our children were born. We had hospital bills, but then Scott came along a little over five years later. He was born in Cedar City, Utah, in 1968, and Thayne was gone. He was in Southeast Asia that year. That was hard mostly because I felt bad for him. That he wasn’t here. I came to realize that it was much harder for him than it was for me. I had family. I had the children. He was working sixteen hours a day and far from home. I think it was a lot harder for him.15 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
MW: Why was he gone for a whole year?
DJ: It was a remote assignment and that’s what it was for, during the war. He was gone then.
MW: Why don't you just meander over here, Thayne, because I think it would be helpful. I’d like to hear the eighteen places that you lived. Can you recite that by memory the two of you?
DJ: I don’t know if we lived in eighteen places, but we had eighteen different houses. Our first assignment in the—well, first we lived in Logan, going to school.
MW: Okay.
ThJ: We lived in what we called the “lambing sheds” in Logan.
MW: The lambing?
DJ: Yeah, that’s what they called it.
ThJ: They are the prefabricated apartments, which we called the lambing sheds because all the couples there were having children. (laughter)
DJ: When Thayne graduated from college, he was a distinguished military graduate. They offered him the opportunity to go the University of Colorado for his master's degree. That was our first assignment in the air force. We went—oh, we were going to make 358 dollars a month. Is that it?
ThJ: Base pay was $222.50 a month.
DJ: Oh, we thought we were in heaven—that much money. We went to Boulder, Colorado. We rented an apartment that was ninety dollars a month. We soon found that we just couldn’t afford that, so we moved to a quonset hut, half a quonset hut. We lived in half a quonset hut because that was forty dollars a month.
TJ: How big was that?
DJ: Oh, very small.
ThJ: A quonset hut is a half circle, like this—metal, cold in winter, and hot in the summer. It didn’t have a bathtub.
DJ: I bathed the children either—I put this much water in the shower and plugged the hole or in the kitchen sink. You know, I think we were happy.
ThJ: We were.16 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: We moved from there to North Carolina, Pope Air Force Base, North Carolina. We lived in—it’s called wherry housing there were four families that lived there.
ThJ: We lived on Fort Bragg, which is an army post next to Pope Air Force Base.
[50:02]
DJ: It was a nice—we had quite a bit of room there. That was where I learned how important attitude is. I’d never seen a cockroach. I’d never felt humidity. I’d never been so far from home. I think I told you this once. I cried a lot. Then one day, it occurred to me that I could cry every day and I would still be here. I think I learned there that this is the life we had chosen. I could cry for the next twenty-nine years, which it turned out to be, or I could make it an adventure. I look back on North Carolina with fondness. From North Carolina, we went to Taiwan, which as I’ve said, was glorious. I loved Taiwan.
ThJ: In fact, our grandson, Julie's youngest son will be finishing his mission in Taiwan in a month.
DJ: He’s in the area where we lived. From Taiwan, Thayne went to Southeast Asia—Nakon Phanom, Thailand.
MW: Which part of Taiwan again?
DJ: Tainan—south.
MW: Okay, south.
DJ: While he was gone that year, I lived in Cedar City. From there we went to Langley Air Force Base, Virginia.
ThJ: This was Headquarters Tactical Air Command. In the Air Force, it would be base level, then the command level, and then headquarters level to round you out and give you experience.
DJ: We loved that. Then, he had an opportunity. The Air Force again sent him to work with a civilian architectural design firm in Los Angeles. We lived in Eagle Rock, California; that was just for nine months. It was a school.
ThJ: Between Glendale and Pasadena.
DJ: From there we went to the Pentagon. We were there four years. I loved Virginia; it was wonderful. From Virginia, we went to Mountain Home, Idaho. Both Gary and Julie graduated from high school there. I will say that from Mountain Home, we went to Guam. I was getting my temple recommend renewed, and the stake president didn’t know me—this is when we moved to Glenwood. He said, "Are you and Brother Judd thinking about a mission?" I said, "Yes. Is there any place you can write on your paper, this sister 17 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
has been to Guam; she is not going back?" (laughter)
ThJ: It was difficult in Guam because we left Julie at Ricks.7
DJ: Well, at Cedar City she was a junior in college.
ThJ: Gary would be a senior in high school. He was on the basketball team and the baseball team at Mountain Home as a junior. We took him and Scott and went to Guam. The government Guam schools are not the best. We decided to put them in a Catholic school, which was much better. After about three weeks, we sent Gary back to Mountain Home for his senior year.
DJ: It was very good for him. He loved it. He did well. He was on the basketball team and had a good circle of friends, but it was hard for us. He would take a cassette tape to the radio station, and as they would broadcast the games, they’d make a tape for us. He would send it to us. We’d sit on the sofa and cry. (laughs) I think he’d get homesick, but we had good friends that he lived with. It was the best thing for him. From Guam, we went to [US] Central Command at MacDill Air Force Base, Florida. From Florida—
ThJ: This was near Tampa. We lived in Brandon, Florida.
DJ: —from Florida, we went to Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and we were there five years. Was it five years? This was the longest we have ever been any place. He was thinking about retiring then. From headquarters civil engineering said, “If you'll stay, we'll send you to the Air Force Academy,” which was our last assignment—at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. Did I leave any place out?
ThJ: I think you did well.
MW: What was your favorite place of all those places you lived?
DJ: Oh, that’s so hard to say. See, it’s so easy to say Guam was my least favorite. But I really did—I loved being at Hill. I loved Colorado Springs, Mountain Home, Virginia—just really. I liked every place really.
ThJ: She was a great influence at Colorado Springs because of the LDS cadets there. They came over to the house every Sunday anywhere from two to ten or fifteen of them and fix dinner for them. They would lay, sleep, and recuperate. She would haul them to church on Sunday. She would listen to their problems, and she was a real trooper.
MW: You didn’t have children with you at that time.
DJ: No, Scott was on his mission then. We didn’t.
7. Ricks College is now Brigham Young University Idaho18 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
MW: You continued to mother after yours were gone, and it changed—
DJ: We did—
MW: — people. Your full-time mission, what year was that?
DJ: We left in 2003.
ThJ: February.
DJ: February 2003. We were gone eighteen months.
MW: Then, what were the circumstances surrounding—you did only four months of the John Johnson farm? That's interesting.
DJ: The man who was the director of the Kirtland sites was a man I grew up with in Loa—Pat Brian—and just out of the blue one day, he called. He called about nine o'clock in the morning, and I said, "How do you even know where we are?" Anyway, he said, "I'd like you to come to Kirtland for the summer to help with the rush." We didn’t submit papers [or] anything. I said, "Well, Thayne isn't here." He said, "Well, I have to know by seven o'clock tonight." We came in, we called our children, said prayers, and it was wonderful. We drove back to Ohio, and we stayed at the John Johnson home in Hiram the whole time.
ThJ: That’s where we worked. We lived in Garrettsville, which was about two or three miles from there.
TJ: It was really cool for me to go there on Heritage Tours, and go there and say, “Oh, this is where my Grammy and Grandpa served.” It was cool.
MW: Let's finish up talking about grandchildren and your hopes and dreams for grandchildren. How many grandchildren do you have and if you could leave them with anything, what would it be?
DJ: We have eleven.
TJ: Who is your favorite? (laughter)
DJ: They’re all my favorite.
TJ: Okay.
DJ: We feel truly blessed that our children are wonderful, responsible people. Their spouses are as well. We love them like they're our own. They’re teaching their children to be the very best that they can be. We just love them so much. We know they’re not perfect—maybe except him. (laughs) I don’t know, but they are really wonderful children. I think 19 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
one of the true blessings in our lives is that our children love each other and they love us. I think my greatest hope is that that will continue, that they’ll continue to support and love each other.
MW: It seems to me that you spend a lot of time coming, supporting, and being here. What do you do exactly? Do you have a philosophy about the importance of grandparenting and being hands-on?
DJ: Oh, I think it’s so important that children know of everyone who loves them. I would hope that Thayne and I would be a positive influence in their lives—that they know we love them—that they maybe would look at our lives and love us back. All we can hope is that they’ll do their very best, be happy, and obedient.
MW: I know you’re very faithful in the Church and the gospel. When was the first time, do you think, in your life that you felt the inklings of the Spirit, or that the Church was true? What you have been raised with was right?
DJ: I think it was when we moved to North Carolina. I think I had taken it for granted, I mean, it’s just how life is. When we moved to North Carolina, there was one point I had four Church callings. There was one day a month that I taught Relief Society in the morning, Primary8 in the afternoon, and Mutual9 in the evening. Once a month I taught the other weeks, I just had two. I think being away and seeing how the Church was in other places that we had to stand on our own. I think we grew in faith. I think we grew to know more because we were away. I think it was North Carolina that I really felt that.
MW: Let me ask Thayne; are there things that she has not talked about, characteristics or traits that have not come out that you think we ought to make sure and hear about your wife?
ThJ: Well, she is quite like her mother; she’s not afraid to tell it like it’s. A lot of times, she gives good instruction to our grandchildren whether they want to take it or not is another thing. She’s a person who loves others. I should have her tell you one experience in Brandon, Florida, when we first moved there—about the Church and when the local brethren came to visit.
DJ: (laughs) We had just bought a house, so the sold sign was [still] in and there were three men that came from the Harvest Baptist Church. (laughs) They said, We'd like to welcome you to the neighborhood, we're so glad you're here. I said, "Well, thank you very much." They said, We’d like to welcome y'all, and invite you to the Harvest Baptist Church, unless you have your own congregation. I said, "Well, that's so nice of you, thank you. We do have our own congregation, but thank you so much." They said, That's wonderful. What is your congregation? I said, "Well, it's The Church of Jesus
8. The Primary is the official children's organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
9. The Mutual (Young Women’s Mutual Improvement Association) is the forerunner to the Young Women organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.20 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
Christ of Latter-Day Saints on John Moore Road." I mean, it’s like I put a curse on them or something; they just stumbled over each other trying to get away from me. They didn’t like me. (laughter)
ThJ: As you can tell, she is the love of my life. She tells great stories. She keeps me in stitches all the time as you can well see today. She tells great stories. She has written down some of the stories, but I keep encouraging her to write of these stories down so that we have them in black and white. She is a great woman.
MW: It probably meant a lot to you to have her be so supportive. Not a lot of women would do what you did traveling to support your husband, cheerfully.
ThJ: Yep, dragged her all over the world and moved many times.
DJ: He taught me and would always say, “Now you can do that.” At times, I didn’t think I could do it. For instance, when we came home from Guam, he went to Florida and I stayed in Loa. He was looking for a house, and Scott was with me and we lived in Loa. I had to fly to San Francisco to Oakland to pick up the car that came over on the ship. I said, “I can’t do that” and he said, “You can do that.” I found that I could do things. When he went to Guam, he left of course, we had children in school. I had to sell the house. “I can’t do that.” “Yes you can,” and I did. I sold the house and I moved. He has helped me have confidence that I can do things because I had to do them. When I picked up the car, the battery was dead. They jumped me at the dock and said, Now there’s a service station. They said, Don’t turn this car off until you get there to get a new battery.” I drove to the service station and while they were installing the battery, I watched the cars on the freeway. (car sounds) They were going so fast. The funny thing that was in our family when we lived in Virginia my children would say, Be quiet; Momma has to merge. (laughter) I knew that I was going to have to merge. (laughter)I just said a prayer. You had to be going seventy miles an hour to merge. I watched. I just said a prayer that when it was my time to merge I’d be able to. As I came up the on ramp for some reason, there was just a break in the traffic and I just merged. (laughter)
ThJ: Then she drove all the way across California, the desert, across Highway 50 that’s the loneliest highway in the world.
DJ: He said that I could do it. (laughter)
MW: That’s great—as the last question—are there any last words that you’d like to say about your life or looking back or looking toward the future? What would you like to do at this point? What would you like to happen in your life before your gone?
DJ: I’d like to be able to be a good influence on our children and our grandchildren. I hope that I’ll still be able to be a service to them. I’d like to be able to serve in the temple. I enjoy that. I want to support Thayne in his calling as a patriarch and now as a sealer in the temple. I’d like to be able to have enough good health that I can continue to work to keep up our yard and house.21 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
ThJ: We really wanted to be able to go on another mission.
DJ: I would like to go on another mission.
ThJ: Until this assignment came as patriarch so we’re not sure of what is going to happen.
DJ: I’m afraid that we will be too old by the time he is not the patriarch. (laughs)
MW: (laughs) That would be exciting. You are a lovely, lovely woman, and we appreciate your time and your stories and your goodness and taking the time to be recorded. I think that you will be a perfect addition to the women in Utah that we’re honoring. You are one like many who sacrificed, served, and gave. That’s the core of who you are so thank you so much.
DJ: Thank you.
MW: It’s been fun to—
DJ: I hope it has not been too mixed up—
MW: No—
DJ: —about a lot of the things.
MW: —and Taylor is going to organize it in a beautiful biography for you and submit it for our purposes. We’ll let you have a part of editing and adding more. If you think things that, you didn’t say that you wished you would have. Just jot them down in an email to Taylor.
DJ: Okay.
ThJ: Tell one more story if there is time.
MW: Sure.
ThJ: It’s when we were in Taiwan and you took the kids to the Officers’ Club for dinner and there were all those rows of slot machines—
DJ: No, that was when we were in Okinawa [Japan] on our way to Korea.
ThJ: Okay, well wherever that was.
DJ: We got bumped off the plane in Okinawa on our way to Korea to stay for the week. We just had the boys, Gary and Scott. In one room in the Officers’ Club there was just one row of slot machines and this woman was playing three, just pumping dollars just as fast as she could. Scott couldn’t go in because he wasn’t old enough because there was a sign22 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
[you had to be eighteen]. I said to him, “Now you watch her. She is going to lose all that money.” Then I thought, What if she hits the jackpot? (laughter) She didn’t, and it was a very good lesson. I said, “Look you count the dollars that she’s putting in there and let that be a lesson to you.” (laughter)
MW: You were a wise mother. Very good, thank you, Doris—
DJ: Thank you.
MW: —it was wonderful.
[01:09:17]
End of interview

UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSITY
Utah Valley University Library
George Sutherland Archives & Special Collections
Oral History Program
Utah Women’s Walk Oral Histories
Directed by Michele Welch
Interview with Doris Judd
by
Taylor Judd
November 8, 2011
Utah Women’s Walk
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Doris Okerlund Judd
Interviewer:
Taylor Judd
Place of Interview:
George Sutherland Archives, UVU, Orem, Utah
Date of Interview:
8 November 2011
Recordist:
Brent Seavers
Recording Equipment:
Zoom Recorder H4n
Transcription Equipment:
Express Scribe
Transcribed by:
Allison Hatch
Audio Transcription Edit:
Kimberly Williamson; Lisa McMullin
Reference:
DJ = Doris Judd (Interviewee)
TJ = Taylor Judd (Interviewer)
MW = Michele Welch (Director, Utah Women’s Walk)
ThJ = Thayne Judd (Interviewee’s husband)
Brief Description of Contents:
Doris Judd talks about her early years growing up in the small town of Loa, Utah and her father herding sheep for a living. She describes her tightly knit family who were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and her parents stressing the importance of education. She shares her experiences attending Southern Utah University, meeting her husband, Thayne Judd and their years traveling in the Air Force. She expresses her love and appreciation for her three children and eleven grandchildren along with the opportunity to service in various roles in the Church.
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as uh and false starts and starts and stops in conversations are not included in this transcript. Changes by interviewee are incorporated in text. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Clarifications and additional information are footnoted.1 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
Audio Transcription
[00:00]
Beginning of interview
TJ: My name is Taylor Judd. We are here at the UVU [Utah Valley University] Library at the archives, and I am here to interview my grandmother Doris Judd. Today is November 8, 2011. How are you doing today, Grammy?
DJ: I am doing well, thank you, dear.
TJ: (laughs) I guess, let's just get started. Where were you born, Grammy?
DJ: I was born in Salina, Utah.
TJ: Salina, Utah.
DJ: The reason being, I grew up in Loa, Utah, and there was no doctor there; so Salina is sixty miles away and so whenever we needed a doctor that’s where we went.
TJ: Wow. How did the Depression affect your family life?
DJ: Well, I think the Depression was over before I was born, but there was residual effect because we didn’t have a lot of the bounties of life.
TJ: Okay and you have often told us kids stories about how your childhood was different than our childhood. This is not on the paper, but could you maybe give us one example of how you said that you didn't have the typical bounties of life—maybe what us grandkids have had?
DJ: Well, I do need to say that I think my parents were wonderful. We didn’t know that we didn’t have a lot because they worked hard to provide what we needed. My mother made all our clothes; she was a beautiful seamstress. But it was different, in that, I don't think we had a television until I was in high school. It didn’t come to the county or a phone. We communicated by walking to places or riding our bikes.
TJ: A lot different than today's age.
DJ: Yes.
TJ: Well, let's talk a little bit more about your family. Tell me about, for example, your family structure, like your parents' siblings, how many brothers and sisters you had, and where you fall in that order.
DJ: I have three older sisters, I am the fourth girl, and then we have one brother, and he is the youngest in the family. We had very good relationships. I would say that we were a very 2 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
close family when we were growing up. We played together and sometimes quarreled together. (laughter) But we had a good family. We knew our parents loved us.
TJ: That’s good. What types of things did you do around the house growing up to help? I mean, I know that you had that farm lifestyle, so what types of things would you do for your daily chores every day.
DJ: My earliest memory, I must have been about four years old, I remember bringing in chips and coal because we had a coal-burning stove in the kitchen and what was called a heat-a-rolla in the living room. We didn’t have a furnace in our house, and so every day we brought in chips and coal. Daddy would chop the wood, and we’d gather chips in a bucket and coal, as we got older and able to lift the bucket. Course, we didn’t have a dishwasher; we washed dishes [by hand and played word games as we did].
[00:26]
I don’t know if I can tell you one game, whether it would be appropriate. (laughter) Oh, we played an alphabet game. We’d think of people in our little town and give descriptions and say, “this is their initial, guess who it is.” While we were doing dishes, we’d do that.
We played another game—and maybe we will edit this after I tell it if it’s not appropriate. There was a man in our town named Dow P. Brian, and we made it a game to say things like, Wow, I saw Dow P. at the post office, and then we’d laugh. It didn’t matter how many times we’d play this game, or uhm I saw Dow P. at church. We entertained ourselves like that with games. And outside we had, especially in the summer, the service station was across the street, and we’d bring an old tire and leaves and some wood and build a fire. Believe it or not, we put potatoes in to roast. They tasted like rubber, and very often they weren't done. But while they were cooking and while the fire was burning we played night games like Run My Sheepy Run and Hide-and-Seek, and—
TJ: Kick the Can?
DJ: Kick the Can, Annie-Eye-Over.
TJ: Cool. Thanks for that. Grammy, your father was a sheepherder. What fond memories do you have of that and what was it like?
DJ: Well, first of all, I'd like to say I love my father so much. I spent time with him at his sheep herd, but before I tell you what we did there—another one of my early memories—and I must have been a small girl. Daddy would be gone a lot, and then one day I saw him galloping on his horse down past Hans Olyer's house. I ran in the house and said, "Daddy's coming in on a wing and a prayer." I just remember we all ran out, and he’d jump off his horse so happy to see us because it might have been weeks that he’d been gone. I think we each took turns staying with him, and sometimes we were in a tent and sometimes we were in a sheep wagon. I don’t know why we weren’t always in the sheep 3 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
wagon, but he would go to tend the sheep, and I would play around the area by myself. I liked to pretend I was Roy Rogers, and so I’d gallop around saving the world. One day, I remember I had holes in the bottom of my shoes. I wore a lot of hand-me-downs. Mama had put cardboard in the bottom of the shoe, but it had worn through. I ran through—chasing outlaws—a patch of prickly pear cactus and had the spines in my feet. I remember Daddy coming back at lunch and putting me on his lap. He took his pocketknife, pulled out the spines, and put more paper in the bottom of my shoe. Another memory I have—Mama had brought me out in the truck with the supplies. I remember her saying to Daddy—she had a jar of marshmallow cream, which was really a treat. My father's name is Melvin, and she said, "Now, Melvin, this is just for your hot cocoa, don't you just eat this.” Daddy had a real sweet tooth, as do I, and I just thought he was so brave. We could see the taillights of the truck—he got two spoons, and we ate the whole jar of marshmallow cream. (laughter) I thought, oh you know, Mother could be quite stern, and I thought, Oh, he's so brave. (laughter)
TJ: If I remember right, wasn't it because your dad was a sheepherder off Parker Mountain—
isn't that what influenced my parents to name my little brother Parker? Is that right?
DJ: Yes. He did run sheep on Boulder Mountain as well, but then he ran cattle and sheep on Parker. Parker Mountain was probably his favorite place; he loved Parker Mountain, and so that’s because Parker's mother, Julene—her mother's maiden name is Parks, and so I think he's named after both families.
TJ: Cool, and I think Parker's a better name than Boulder.
DJ: Right.
TJ: Grammy, in your opinion and I am actually really looking forward to this question: what is the biggest difference in a child's upbringing when you were growing up and a child's upbringing in today's age? What influence do you think that has had on society either good or bad? What’s your opinion?
DJ: Well, I do think it’s quite different, I mean, with the people that I know. Certainly, there is more affluence, more of the things of the world, more bounty maybe than necessity. I think, as I said before, we didn’t have television or phones for a long time. We played games; we played outside; we rode our bikes all over town. We were just, kind of free to make our own fun. I think today, the things I’ve noticed with grandchildren for instance, are they concentrate more on electronic games and the computer and things. It’s just a different age. I am sure there are advantages to both types, but I just somehow think childhood for me maybe was more free. Although, having said that, I do believe children today have so many advantages—to learn dance or piano or singing, and things that maybe we didn’t have the opportunity to do. I think you can find good in both ways of life.
TJ: Awesome. Speaking about your childhood, is there one experience from your early beginnings that you think prepared you for your life work as a mother and a homemaker?4 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well, my mother taught us to work, and my mother taught us kindness. She had a fondness for the underdog, I think. My mother was adopted as an infant. Although her parents loved her—and they were elderly when they took her into their home—she had a feeling for people, like I said, the underdog. She taught us to be kind. She wasn’t a really great cook. (laughs) But she always made it clear—both she and Daddy made it clear. She never said, “If you go to college” or to my brother, “If you go on a mission.” It was, “Now when you go to college.” Education was important to her. She taught me how to make bread. She didn’t teach me to sew, which I don't have an inclination for that. She had four girls. She made our formals; she made our dresses—everything. I just think she didn’t have the patience—if she had four dresses to make to do that. She didn’t teach me that. She had a wonderful sense of humor and a positive outlook, and I think she gave me that. I hope she did.
TJ: (laughs) That’s great, and I can say the same thing about my own mom. I think that leads us into the next question about who were the women that you admired as you were growing up.
DJ: Well, certainly my mother. I had a teacher at school in elementary school that I loved. She was kind and encouraged me in things. Her name was Mrs. Chappell. Actually, I had two Mrs. Chappell’s that I liked. I had a very close relationship with my sisters growing up. My older sister, I think, has always been my best friend, and she influenced me a lot.
TJ: Grammy, how and when did you meet Thayne, and what attracted you to him?
DJ: Well, we met on the north rim of the Grand Canyon. I was working there after my freshman year of college. He came to date another girl Kay Ashcroft (laughs) and brought a friend. I went with his friend, and he took Kaye Ashcroft. But the next time he came out to Grand Canyon—he grew up in Kanab; so it was eighty miles away. He came to see me. (laughter) We started dating. We had, I think one or two dates there. I was a sophomore in college, and he was a freshman. In the olden days, it was called CSU, now it’s SUU [Southern Utah University] in Cedar City, [Utah] and we started dating then. We had a Book of Mormon class together at the institute. I was attracted to him; first of all he was really handsome—still is. He’s a great dancer; we love to dance together. I think that’s really where we made a connection.
TJ: Wow. Good, because I never knew that, like how you two met. Thanks for that. Where and when did you get married and what was your early marriage life like?
DJ: We were married in the Manti Temple on September 10, 1960. We just celebrated our fifty-first wedding anniversary. We were both students at Utah State, and we lived in a tiny little, old, old apartment in Logan. Our parents helped us a lot with food. I mean whenever we’d go home they would send a box of food back—meat or whatever, bottled peaches. They helped us a lot. I worked in the president's office. I ran the switchboard for several hours every day, which gave us a little money. I think our apartment was 5 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
forty dollars a month, which was thirty and then we rented a refrigerator. We bought the ugliest sofa you have ever seen in your life for four dollars. (laughter) But everybody we knew was in the very same situation. We had good friends who were students, and on weekends, nobody had any money, so we would play games and visit. It was really a great time. We liked it a lot.
TJ: It’s a lot like me now on weekends. I don’t have any money, so I guess we will make our own fun.
DJ: There you go. (laughs) Some things never change.
TJ: Your husband, Thayne, was in the [US] Air Force. Tell me about what your favorite part was and your least favorite part about having a husband in the air force.
DJ: Well, I will tell you the least favorite first. He was gone a lot. Sometimes he would be gone for several months, sometimes for a few weeks or days. During the Vietnam War, he left to go to Southeast Asia three weeks before our youngest child, Scott, was born. As I look back, I think that’s the hardest part, but at the time it’s just how life was. We adjusted to that. I don’t know that it seemed really hard because you just take it day by day. As I look back, I think that was the hardest. I was thinking about this question and my favorite and another least favorite part are kind of the same. It was hard to leave friends and homes and neighbors that we learned to love. That was a hard part when it was time to move, but on the other hand, it was also an adventure, so I think that was my favorite part. We had wonderful experiences. We lived in Taiwan for two years, and I absolutely loved that. That was such a choice experience in my life. We made friends wherever we went. We had opportunities to serve in the Church,1 and I think we had personal growth through that. While sometimes it was hard to leave, it was an adventure.
TJ: Great. I think that kind of leads us into our next question. What types of challenges did you face with raising your children? Did that have an effect in any way?
DJ: Well, I don’t know that it did because that was our life. That was just what was normal to us.
TJ: Okay.
DJ: But we tried to teach our children. We tried to make so that it didn’t matter where you lived, but what kind of home you had. As we moved, we tried to make—as I say, an adventure. I did learn—Thayne would go and have a new job and be busy. I learned that my responsibility was to have a positive outlook about it. Sometimes a mother has to pretend. I mean my heart could be breaking because I was leaving dear friends or a place I loved. But for the sake of our children it needed to be an adventure. I don’t think it was any harder to raise our children moving than it was if we stayed in one place because we just lived life as it was.
1. Doris refers to the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.6 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
TJ: Okay, awesome. Grammy, you have also served in many Church callings. Tell me about the most significant ones and any experiences that you can recall.
DJ: Well, I have had lots of Church callings. I was thinking about that, and we were stationed on Guam also for two years. I would like to say that I loved every place except Guam. If you’ve moved eighteen times or so that’s not a bad record because I didn’t like Guam. (laughs) I was the Relief Society2 president for the district there; they had branches. Every year they had on the twenty-fourth of July3 on the island they had what was called the Mormon run. We were preparing for that, and we handed out all the food for the Relief Society presidents and the people in the branches to make. It was fried chicken and potato salad. Well, then we got a typhoon warning. It was supposed to hit the island that very day. Now, you can freeze chicken, but you can’t freeze potato salad. I was up and down the island delivering potato salad. Then we postponed it for a few weeks. I think we had beans or something instead of potato salad.
I really, really believe the most significant calling I had and one that was such a choice experience for me, we had together. We were called because we’re retired military. At that time, it was a new program in the Church. We were called [as missionaries] to go to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, an army post, and minister to the needs of the LDS soldiers there. As it turned out, we had many more non-LDS soldiers than we did LDS. But it was so wonderful; it was just perfect for us. We were there eighteen months. Every week I took pictures. I sent emails. I sent letters to wives, to mothers, to girlfriends. Every Sunday, we could have a hundred soldiers filing in. I could be shaking hands—they were in their BDUs, their battle dress uniforms, coming in single file. I was smiling saying, “We're so glad you are here.” On this shoulder, I’d have a soldier just sobbing. I’d say, “It’s okay; it's okay we’re so glad you’re here. It’s okay; it’s okay,” because it was hard. He was sick or homesick or something. I think out of all the Church service I’ve given, I felt like that was perfect for me. I just loved that because we have such a special feeling for these young men and women in the military. Then we served another mission.
We went to just a short mission for four months to the Kirtland [Ohio] sites. We were at the John Johnson home, and I loved that too.
[20:40]
TJ: That’s great, and recently, Thayne has been called as your stake patriarch.4 We think that’s great. What blessings do you think have come into your life from that, or what feelings do you have towards that?
2. The Relief Society is the official women's organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
3. July twenty-fourth is a Utah state holiday commemorating the day the Utah pioneers entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847.
4. A patriarch is a male member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who has been called to provide individual blessings for members of the LDS Church.7 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well, I was set apart as the transcriber and the recorder, and that’s been a blessing. I think it brings a special spirit in our home when we have these young people coming. We are so happy to welcome them to our home. I am happy to support him and help him with that.
TJ: Great. Grammy, what do you feel has been your most significant trial in your life, and what it’s done for you?
DJ: Well, probably when my father died. He died in 1973, but it was a shock to us. I just think we hadn’t ever—I don’t know you have a tendency to think your parents will never die. But that was hard for me. Thayne was stationed at the Pentagon then; we lived in northern Virginia. I was away from family. We went home for a week, of course, for his funeral, and then came back to Virginia. I didn’t see anybody from my family for a year. I mean, we talked all the time on the phone. I think that was hard for me. We had just barely moved into a home, and Thayne was busy working ten or fourteen hours a day. I suffered from that. I think that was probably the hardest thing.
TJ: I can only imagine how hard that would be being away from family and having that happen. Grammy, are there any other words of wisdom, maxims, or maybe a verse of scripture that you have lived your life by?
DJ: Well, I don’t know how well I have lived my life by it. (laughter) I have two favorite scriptures. The first is in Mosiah chapter 18 verses5—I wrote it down; can I just look on my note? It talks about being of service to each other, to love one another, to bear each other's burdens, and to be worthy to be called children of God. I truly believe that being of service to others is what will bring great joy. I don’t know how well I have lived that, but I think it’s important. Then I had an experience when we were at Fort Sill with the soldiers. This scripture would come to my mind. I told you they filed in, in their battle dress uniform, and the thought would come to me: they had spent the week learning how to put on the armor of man, and they’re coming to us today to help them learn how to put on the armor of God.
And so Ephesians chapter 66 is another favorite of mine because I think in today's world, if we make it through to be the kind of people we want to be, we do have to put on the whole armor of God. So those are my two favorite scriptures. I have another saying I—my husband doesn't think I live this, but I do. I read something once that said, “Change is inevitable; growth is optional.” I think especially as we moved so many times and had so many different opportunities, it was up to us to make growth because change is going to happen no matter what.
TJ: Just responding to that question, Grammy, I think you are the epitome of living that verse in Mosiah. You are always serving our family when you would come and tend us five
5. Doris refers to scriptural verses found in the Book of Mormon.
6. Doris refers to scriptural verses found in the Bible.8 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
noisy, loud grandkids that are always on their cell phones or running out the door. Thanks for your wonderful example in that. Grammy, what would you like to be remembered most for?
DJ: That I made it through. (laughter) Well, I would like to be remembered by my family and my neighbors and friends that I was a good person. That I loved people, and that I did do service. I hope that I’ll be remembered like that.
TJ: Well, good, mission accomplished. You already have that going for you. What advice, Grammy, do you have for younger women in Utah today?
DJ: I think education is very important. I would encourage young women to follow a path where they can learn important things—the things they are interested in and things that will help others. I would encourage young women to be strong against the things in the world that are not proper. I would suggest to young mothers that they remember that they are the parent. It’s wonderful to be good friends with your children, but it’s very important to be the parent and to know that it’s your responsibility to teach them. I would suggest that they learn to communicate with their friends, with their husband, with their children. I think that’s one of the most important things we can do.
TJ: Would you suggest for the young women of today to also date your grandson?
DJ: I would try to line them up.
TJ: (laughs)
DJ: I gave you pictures. (laughter)
TJ: Grammy, what would you like to accomplish during these later years of your life, and what do you do that’s fulfilling now?
DJ: Well, I work in the Manti Temple two days a week. That’s very fulfilling; I like that a lot. I would hope that I could continue to be an influence on our grandchildren. I think in today's world it’s important that young people know of everyone who loves them. I would hope to be an influence—and have them listen to me when I give them pictures of girls that are nice.
TJ: (laughs) Grammy, is there anything else that you would like to have recorded, I guess, is something that we haven’t gone over?
DJ: No.
TJ: No? (laughter) Well, is there any other questions or comments?
MW: Well, I have a few if that’s okay. Are you okay? Take a drink and breathe for a minute. Taylor, you did a great job. I’m going to ask some follow-up questions if that’s okay.9 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
ThJ: Can I suggest a couple stories she forgot?
MW: Yes, yes.
ThJ: The coal oil.
DJ: Oh. Yes, my mother had the supplies on our front porch that she was taking to the sheep herd for Daddy. I was on the front porch and she said, "Now, you stay out of those." But there was a root beer bottle, and I thought, Oh, I'll just take one little swallow. Well, it didn’t have root beer in it; it had coal oil. I don’t know why I am alive today. It was so awful and then there was peanut butter, so I took a big glob of peanut butter to try to get the coal oil taste out my mouth. I was burping peanut butter and coal oil for days. I never did tell my mother. (laughter)
MW: How old were you when that happened?
DJ: I must have been—I was old enough to know better, but I must have been eight or nine, I think.
ThJ: Willow.
[30:05]
DJ: Oh, my mother would send us out when we needed a spanking, which I seemed to need quite often it seems, to get our own willow. I thought the tiniest one would be better. (laughter)
TJ: You can swing it faster.
DJ: It hurts worse. Is that it?
MW: Tell us about the ages in your family—you have the three older—
DJ: I have three older sisters; my oldest sister is seven years older and then four and a half years older, and two years older.
MW: So, Anne [Leavitt] is the oldest.
DJ: Anne is the oldest and then Jane and then Fawn Rae and then me, and then my brother David is four years younger. I remember when David was born; I was four. We didn’t have phones; there were very few phones in the whole town. Darella Bowms had a phone. Daddy called her to come and tell us that our brother had been born. I remember Fawnie and I put a kitchen chair in the middle of the floor and took turns jumping off. That was our celebration. (laughter) 10 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
David was born prematurely, and so he didn’t get to come home from the hospital for a couple of months. He was born in October; it’s very cold where we grew up in Loa. The elevation's almost eight thousand feet. Well, in November Daddy and Mama had gone to get David; we thought he was coming home. In the meantime, we were all home waiting. Fawnie and Jane were usually the ones who would quarrel. They were next to each other in age. I can’t remember if it was Jane that threw the shoe or Fawnie that threw the shoe, but whoever it was threw a shoe at—let’s say Fawnie threw the shoe at Jane and Jane ducked, and it went through our plate glass window, our front window. I remember Anne, who was always in charge saying, "Our brother's coming home, and he's going to die because it will be too cold." We were all just sobbing, and we taped newspaper up to the windows. Mama and Daddy came home from Salina, and luckily, David wasn’t ready to come home yet. I remember Jane who had rheumatic fever; she was quite sickly. Somehow, she had five dollars; I don’t know where—but I remember her offering to give the five dollars to repair the window. I would like to say that was another reason I believe that Ann and I are so close. Mama was busy taking care of Jane. She had rheumatic fever and Bright’s Disease. Ann always took care of me, and she still does.
MW: Doris, did you give us your birth date?
DJ: I didn’t.
MW: Exactly. Can you give us your birth date?
DJ: I was born August 28, 1939.
MW: Was it in a hospital in Loa?
DJ: Yes—no, in Salina.
MW: In Salina, okay.
ThJ: Baptism.
[33:21]
DJ: Oh. When it was time for me to be baptized, we didn’t have a font in the chapel. I was baptized in the Loa fish hatchery. They cleaned out one of the runs, of course. It was on my father's birthday, September seventh. Then we got dressed in a big, long warehouse kind of thing. I was getting dressed, and Darrell Taylor also got baptized that day. He came in and saw me in my underwear. I was just mortified. (laughter)
A year or so later, I got hit by a car running—We lived on Main Street. [Mama] always said, “Do not run across the street, always look.” Well, I’d been roller-skating over at Donna Taylor's house and came home. I took my roller skates off, and I was running across the road. I looked and here came a car—Silas Tanner—it wasn’t going very fast, but it hit me. I rolled down the highway, got up, and ran in the house. Mama was white 11 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
as a ghost. I was bleeding. She said, "What happened, what happened?" I said, "I fell down," because she had always told me to look both ways. I was afraid she would spank me. (laughter) I lied so that she wouldn’t know that I ran across the road. But of course, the man came in and—but there again Darrell Taylor played a part because they came over to see my injuries. My mother pulled my pants down to show him my scrapes and cuts.
MW: (laughs) Who was Darrell Taylor?
DJ: Well, he was a neighbor across the street my same age. In fact, I should have said that when we were playing—we played cowboys and outlaws, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, and Dale Evans. We’d gallop around and pretend that we were that. Donna Taylor was two years younger and she was such a tomboy, and she wouldn’t play if she didn’t get to be Roy Rogers. Sometimes I had to be Dale Evans so Donna would play. (laughter)
ThJ: Treehouse.
DJ: We also—oh—we also climbed trees. Lola Ann, a neighbor across the street south, had a granary, and we had a playhouse in the top of it. It was really cute, and I had just swept it out one day. It had a ladder to get up, I mean, the steps were a ladder. Merley Erickson came and threw a bucket of dirt after we’d just swept. My jump rope was right there, and I threw it around his neck and pushed him off. (laughter)
TJ: What?
DJ: We used to say, “Those Erickson kids are so mean.” Actually, as we talk about the things we did as children, the Okerlund children were fairly mean, too. (laughter)
MW: So where did you graduate from high school? What was the name of it?
DJ: I graduated from Wayne High School in 1957.
MW: What subjects did you enjoy?
DJ: I liked, let's see, boys. (laughter) I liked English, and I didn’t like math. I liked social studies.
TJ: In high school, I remember seeing some type of poster downstairs in the basement. Weren't you a homecoming queen or something?
DJ: That was in college.
TJ: That was in college. Oh, that’s even cooler. (laughs)
MW: Tell us about some of the honors and things that you’ve had.12 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well—
MW: Start young and just tell us all the honors if you don’t mind. What did you do in high school?
DJ: I was a cheerleader. I was the yearbook editor. I was in FHA, Future Homemakers of America. I got good grades. I graduated—I was class officer in my sophomore and senior years. It was a small high school. There were only forty-two people in my graduating class so I didn’t have a lot of competition. My first two years of college were at CSU in Cedar City, which is now SUU. I was a cheerleader there as well. I was voted homecoming queen my freshman year. Oh, I went to girl's state when I was in high school. I haven’t thought about these things for a long time.
MW: So you were a leader in your high school in lots of different areas.
DJ: I think I was, yes. When I was in college, I worked in the—I always worked. My parents worked hard to put us all through college. At one point, Daddy and Mama had three daughters in college.
MW: What did you do?
DJ: When I was in Cedar City, I worked at the college bookstore, which was really a fun place because that’s where all the students congregated. I really liked that a lot.
TJ: Saw a lot of boys?
DJ: Saw a lot of boys.
MW: I am interested more about your marriage and your courtship. What dances did you do and music did you enjoy listening to?
TJ: They are really good at the jitterbug.
DJ: We jitterbugged. We still do.
TJ: (laughs) They still do every Christmas.
DJ: We get out of breath a little earlier these days, (laughs) but we just liked the fifties music. We went to movies. Oh, one time we were laying, not laying, sitting on the lawn by the girls’ dorm talking. I was trying to impress him; we had just started dating. We were sitting there talking, I was trying to be charming, and a bird (clapping) right on my forehead and it ran down my nose. [He laughed] so hard. I thought he'd have a stroke or something. (laughter)
MW: That’s funny. Do you remember any music, a song? Did you have a special song or any group that you particularly liked?13 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: Well, when I was in high school I liked Elvis Presley and I liked—I can't remember who the group was, but they sang, “You, You, You.” I just cannot remember the names. I'd have to think about that.
MW: That’s okay.
ThJ: Glen Miller.
DJ: Oh yeah, we love Glen Miller because he’s so good to dance to.
MW: Tell me about graduating from college. Did you graduate from Utah State?
DJ: Yes.
MW: What propelled you to go north?
DJ: Well, two of my sisters had gone to Utah State, and the thing that made that happen I believe, is Jane was going to Utah State and my Aunt Berta said to my mother, "Well, all good girls go to BYU." My mother said, "I have four good girls and none of them will go to BYU,” I think just because Aunt Berta said that. (laughter) We just ended up there. I graduated from Utah State.
MW: With what degree?
DJ: A social work degree. I liked being at Utah State. I really got good grades in my senior year because we were married. Thayne studied a lot, and so I did too.
MW: So you were married in your senior year?
DJ: We were married right before my senior year and graduated in June. I was pregnant with our daughter Julie when I graduated.
MW: Tell us about the births of each of your children and a little bit about them right now.
DJ: Well, Julie is our oldest. She was born in Logan, and she was just always a very precocious child. She lives in Orem now. She’s always worked; right now she’s working as Stephen Covey's personal assistant. She’s a very—she’s a person I really admire too, along with both of our daughters-in-law. I think they have added to my life because I can follow their example. I think they’re all three wonderful women. Julie is accomplished, and I think she’s kind and good. Gary—
MW: What year was Julie, what year?
DJ: Julie was born in 1961.14 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
MW: Did you have an easy labor, delivery, and pregnancy?
DJ: Well, I loved being pregnant. I was sick. In fact, I remember once I had an eight o'clock class, and I would wake up in the morning and eat a saltine cracker so I wouldn’t throw up. I was in class and if you have ever had dry heaves—I could feel it coming, but there wasn’t a thing I could do about it I just (making gagging sound) right in class. I had a sociology class from Dr. Saunders, and his daughter was my friend. I didn’t think anybody knew I was pregnant. He said to her, "Would you tell that girl it’s all right to leave class. She looks green." (laughter)
TJ: Isn't there a story, Grammy, of when—I can't remember if you were pregnant with my dad or Scott when all you wanted was a red Popsicle, and you stopped at a gas station.
DJ: It was with Julie. I was pregnant with Julie and actually, it was an orange Popsicle. We were on our way to Cedar City. Thayne's friend was getting married, and we stopped at Cove Fort. At that time, they had a little store there. I wanted an orange Popsicle so bad, and he came out with a red one because I think they didn’t have orange, but I cried. (laughter) I just needed that orange Popsicle. Then Gary—
MW: What year was Gary born?
DJ: —he was born in 1963. I do need to say one thing about Julie's birth. She was born on October twenty-third is when she was born, but on October twenty-first, I sat through three hours of Spartacus, the movie Spartacus. On Saturday morning, I got up at four o'clock to fix a lunch for Thayne. He was going deer hunting with his brother. My water broke and his brother came. He was going to go. I just said, "You can't go" and so he stayed. Then his brother came home at eight o'clock and had his deer. That has always been (click). I called the doctor and he said, "Come in on Sunday if you haven't started labor. I'm sure you will, but come in." Well, I had not, so he gave me a shot and told me to go home and take castor oil with orange juice. All we had was apricot nectar that Thayne's mother had bottled. I mixed castor oil with that and drank it. I started in labor on Sunday afternoon and—we were laughing about this the other day. We called a neighbor of ours who was an orderly at the hospital and said, “My pains are four minutes apart. Do you think I should go to the hospital?” And so we did, Sunday night at eight o'clock. She wasn’t born until two o'clock Monday afternoon. She took a while.
Gary was also born in Logan in 1963, August fourth, and I took castor oil again. He was really an easy birth; I think it was four hours. Then three weeks after that’s when Thayne—I mean, he had been commissioned in the air force at graduation. But we weren’t in the air force until three weeks after both of our children were born. We had hospital bills, but then Scott came along a little over five years later. He was born in Cedar City, Utah, in 1968, and Thayne was gone. He was in Southeast Asia that year. That was hard mostly because I felt bad for him. That he wasn’t here. I came to realize that it was much harder for him than it was for me. I had family. I had the children. He was working sixteen hours a day and far from home. I think it was a lot harder for him.15 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
MW: Why was he gone for a whole year?
DJ: It was a remote assignment and that’s what it was for, during the war. He was gone then.
MW: Why don't you just meander over here, Thayne, because I think it would be helpful. I’d like to hear the eighteen places that you lived. Can you recite that by memory the two of you?
DJ: I don’t know if we lived in eighteen places, but we had eighteen different houses. Our first assignment in the—well, first we lived in Logan, going to school.
MW: Okay.
ThJ: We lived in what we called the “lambing sheds” in Logan.
MW: The lambing?
DJ: Yeah, that’s what they called it.
ThJ: They are the prefabricated apartments, which we called the lambing sheds because all the couples there were having children. (laughter)
DJ: When Thayne graduated from college, he was a distinguished military graduate. They offered him the opportunity to go the University of Colorado for his master's degree. That was our first assignment in the air force. We went—oh, we were going to make 358 dollars a month. Is that it?
ThJ: Base pay was $222.50 a month.
DJ: Oh, we thought we were in heaven—that much money. We went to Boulder, Colorado. We rented an apartment that was ninety dollars a month. We soon found that we just couldn’t afford that, so we moved to a quonset hut, half a quonset hut. We lived in half a quonset hut because that was forty dollars a month.
TJ: How big was that?
DJ: Oh, very small.
ThJ: A quonset hut is a half circle, like this—metal, cold in winter, and hot in the summer. It didn’t have a bathtub.
DJ: I bathed the children either—I put this much water in the shower and plugged the hole or in the kitchen sink. You know, I think we were happy.
ThJ: We were.16 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
DJ: We moved from there to North Carolina, Pope Air Force Base, North Carolina. We lived in—it’s called wherry housing there were four families that lived there.
ThJ: We lived on Fort Bragg, which is an army post next to Pope Air Force Base.
[50:02]
DJ: It was a nice—we had quite a bit of room there. That was where I learned how important attitude is. I’d never seen a cockroach. I’d never felt humidity. I’d never been so far from home. I think I told you this once. I cried a lot. Then one day, it occurred to me that I could cry every day and I would still be here. I think I learned there that this is the life we had chosen. I could cry for the next twenty-nine years, which it turned out to be, or I could make it an adventure. I look back on North Carolina with fondness. From North Carolina, we went to Taiwan, which as I’ve said, was glorious. I loved Taiwan.
ThJ: In fact, our grandson, Julie's youngest son will be finishing his mission in Taiwan in a month.
DJ: He’s in the area where we lived. From Taiwan, Thayne went to Southeast Asia—Nakon Phanom, Thailand.
MW: Which part of Taiwan again?
DJ: Tainan—south.
MW: Okay, south.
DJ: While he was gone that year, I lived in Cedar City. From there we went to Langley Air Force Base, Virginia.
ThJ: This was Headquarters Tactical Air Command. In the Air Force, it would be base level, then the command level, and then headquarters level to round you out and give you experience.
DJ: We loved that. Then, he had an opportunity. The Air Force again sent him to work with a civilian architectural design firm in Los Angeles. We lived in Eagle Rock, California; that was just for nine months. It was a school.
ThJ: Between Glendale and Pasadena.
DJ: From there we went to the Pentagon. We were there four years. I loved Virginia; it was wonderful. From Virginia, we went to Mountain Home, Idaho. Both Gary and Julie graduated from high school there. I will say that from Mountain Home, we went to Guam. I was getting my temple recommend renewed, and the stake president didn’t know me—this is when we moved to Glenwood. He said, "Are you and Brother Judd thinking about a mission?" I said, "Yes. Is there any place you can write on your paper, this sister 17 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
has been to Guam; she is not going back?" (laughter)
ThJ: It was difficult in Guam because we left Julie at Ricks.7
DJ: Well, at Cedar City she was a junior in college.
ThJ: Gary would be a senior in high school. He was on the basketball team and the baseball team at Mountain Home as a junior. We took him and Scott and went to Guam. The government Guam schools are not the best. We decided to put them in a Catholic school, which was much better. After about three weeks, we sent Gary back to Mountain Home for his senior year.
DJ: It was very good for him. He loved it. He did well. He was on the basketball team and had a good circle of friends, but it was hard for us. He would take a cassette tape to the radio station, and as they would broadcast the games, they’d make a tape for us. He would send it to us. We’d sit on the sofa and cry. (laughs) I think he’d get homesick, but we had good friends that he lived with. It was the best thing for him. From Guam, we went to [US] Central Command at MacDill Air Force Base, Florida. From Florida—
ThJ: This was near Tampa. We lived in Brandon, Florida.
DJ: —from Florida, we went to Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and we were there five years. Was it five years? This was the longest we have ever been any place. He was thinking about retiring then. From headquarters civil engineering said, “If you'll stay, we'll send you to the Air Force Academy,” which was our last assignment—at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. Did I leave any place out?
ThJ: I think you did well.
MW: What was your favorite place of all those places you lived?
DJ: Oh, that’s so hard to say. See, it’s so easy to say Guam was my least favorite. But I really did—I loved being at Hill. I loved Colorado Springs, Mountain Home, Virginia—just really. I liked every place really.
ThJ: She was a great influence at Colorado Springs because of the LDS cadets there. They came over to the house every Sunday anywhere from two to ten or fifteen of them and fix dinner for them. They would lay, sleep, and recuperate. She would haul them to church on Sunday. She would listen to their problems, and she was a real trooper.
MW: You didn’t have children with you at that time.
DJ: No, Scott was on his mission then. We didn’t.
7. Ricks College is now Brigham Young University Idaho18 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
MW: You continued to mother after yours were gone, and it changed—
DJ: We did—
MW: — people. Your full-time mission, what year was that?
DJ: We left in 2003.
ThJ: February.
DJ: February 2003. We were gone eighteen months.
MW: Then, what were the circumstances surrounding—you did only four months of the John Johnson farm? That's interesting.
DJ: The man who was the director of the Kirtland sites was a man I grew up with in Loa—Pat Brian—and just out of the blue one day, he called. He called about nine o'clock in the morning, and I said, "How do you even know where we are?" Anyway, he said, "I'd like you to come to Kirtland for the summer to help with the rush." We didn’t submit papers [or] anything. I said, "Well, Thayne isn't here." He said, "Well, I have to know by seven o'clock tonight." We came in, we called our children, said prayers, and it was wonderful. We drove back to Ohio, and we stayed at the John Johnson home in Hiram the whole time.
ThJ: That’s where we worked. We lived in Garrettsville, which was about two or three miles from there.
TJ: It was really cool for me to go there on Heritage Tours, and go there and say, “Oh, this is where my Grammy and Grandpa served.” It was cool.
MW: Let's finish up talking about grandchildren and your hopes and dreams for grandchildren. How many grandchildren do you have and if you could leave them with anything, what would it be?
DJ: We have eleven.
TJ: Who is your favorite? (laughter)
DJ: They’re all my favorite.
TJ: Okay.
DJ: We feel truly blessed that our children are wonderful, responsible people. Their spouses are as well. We love them like they're our own. They’re teaching their children to be the very best that they can be. We just love them so much. We know they’re not perfect—maybe except him. (laughs) I don’t know, but they are really wonderful children. I think 19 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
one of the true blessings in our lives is that our children love each other and they love us. I think my greatest hope is that that will continue, that they’ll continue to support and love each other.
MW: It seems to me that you spend a lot of time coming, supporting, and being here. What do you do exactly? Do you have a philosophy about the importance of grandparenting and being hands-on?
DJ: Oh, I think it’s so important that children know of everyone who loves them. I would hope that Thayne and I would be a positive influence in their lives—that they know we love them—that they maybe would look at our lives and love us back. All we can hope is that they’ll do their very best, be happy, and obedient.
MW: I know you’re very faithful in the Church and the gospel. When was the first time, do you think, in your life that you felt the inklings of the Spirit, or that the Church was true? What you have been raised with was right?
DJ: I think it was when we moved to North Carolina. I think I had taken it for granted, I mean, it’s just how life is. When we moved to North Carolina, there was one point I had four Church callings. There was one day a month that I taught Relief Society in the morning, Primary8 in the afternoon, and Mutual9 in the evening. Once a month I taught the other weeks, I just had two. I think being away and seeing how the Church was in other places that we had to stand on our own. I think we grew in faith. I think we grew to know more because we were away. I think it was North Carolina that I really felt that.
MW: Let me ask Thayne; are there things that she has not talked about, characteristics or traits that have not come out that you think we ought to make sure and hear about your wife?
ThJ: Well, she is quite like her mother; she’s not afraid to tell it like it’s. A lot of times, she gives good instruction to our grandchildren whether they want to take it or not is another thing. She’s a person who loves others. I should have her tell you one experience in Brandon, Florida, when we first moved there—about the Church and when the local brethren came to visit.
DJ: (laughs) We had just bought a house, so the sold sign was [still] in and there were three men that came from the Harvest Baptist Church. (laughs) They said, We'd like to welcome you to the neighborhood, we're so glad you're here. I said, "Well, thank you very much." They said, We’d like to welcome y'all, and invite you to the Harvest Baptist Church, unless you have your own congregation. I said, "Well, that's so nice of you, thank you. We do have our own congregation, but thank you so much." They said, That's wonderful. What is your congregation? I said, "Well, it's The Church of Jesus
8. The Primary is the official children's organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
9. The Mutual (Young Women’s Mutual Improvement Association) is the forerunner to the Young Women organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.20 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
Christ of Latter-Day Saints on John Moore Road." I mean, it’s like I put a curse on them or something; they just stumbled over each other trying to get away from me. They didn’t like me. (laughter)
ThJ: As you can tell, she is the love of my life. She tells great stories. She keeps me in stitches all the time as you can well see today. She tells great stories. She has written down some of the stories, but I keep encouraging her to write of these stories down so that we have them in black and white. She is a great woman.
MW: It probably meant a lot to you to have her be so supportive. Not a lot of women would do what you did traveling to support your husband, cheerfully.
ThJ: Yep, dragged her all over the world and moved many times.
DJ: He taught me and would always say, “Now you can do that.” At times, I didn’t think I could do it. For instance, when we came home from Guam, he went to Florida and I stayed in Loa. He was looking for a house, and Scott was with me and we lived in Loa. I had to fly to San Francisco to Oakland to pick up the car that came over on the ship. I said, “I can’t do that” and he said, “You can do that.” I found that I could do things. When he went to Guam, he left of course, we had children in school. I had to sell the house. “I can’t do that.” “Yes you can,” and I did. I sold the house and I moved. He has helped me have confidence that I can do things because I had to do them. When I picked up the car, the battery was dead. They jumped me at the dock and said, Now there’s a service station. They said, Don’t turn this car off until you get there to get a new battery.” I drove to the service station and while they were installing the battery, I watched the cars on the freeway. (car sounds) They were going so fast. The funny thing that was in our family when we lived in Virginia my children would say, Be quiet; Momma has to merge. (laughter) I knew that I was going to have to merge. (laughter)I just said a prayer. You had to be going seventy miles an hour to merge. I watched. I just said a prayer that when it was my time to merge I’d be able to. As I came up the on ramp for some reason, there was just a break in the traffic and I just merged. (laughter)
ThJ: Then she drove all the way across California, the desert, across Highway 50 that’s the loneliest highway in the world.
DJ: He said that I could do it. (laughter)
MW: That’s great—as the last question—are there any last words that you’d like to say about your life or looking back or looking toward the future? What would you like to do at this point? What would you like to happen in your life before your gone?
DJ: I’d like to be able to be a good influence on our children and our grandchildren. I hope that I’ll still be able to be a service to them. I’d like to be able to serve in the temple. I enjoy that. I want to support Thayne in his calling as a patriarch and now as a sealer in the temple. I’d like to be able to have enough good health that I can continue to work to keep up our yard and house.21 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
ThJ: We really wanted to be able to go on another mission.
DJ: I would like to go on another mission.
ThJ: Until this assignment came as patriarch so we’re not sure of what is going to happen.
DJ: I’m afraid that we will be too old by the time he is not the patriarch. (laughs)
MW: (laughs) That would be exciting. You are a lovely, lovely woman, and we appreciate your time and your stories and your goodness and taking the time to be recorded. I think that you will be a perfect addition to the women in Utah that we’re honoring. You are one like many who sacrificed, served, and gave. That’s the core of who you are so thank you so much.
DJ: Thank you.
MW: It’s been fun to—
DJ: I hope it has not been too mixed up—
MW: No—
DJ: —about a lot of the things.
MW: —and Taylor is going to organize it in a beautiful biography for you and submit it for our purposes. We’ll let you have a part of editing and adding more. If you think things that, you didn’t say that you wished you would have. Just jot them down in an email to Taylor.
DJ: Okay.
ThJ: Tell one more story if there is time.
MW: Sure.
ThJ: It’s when we were in Taiwan and you took the kids to the Officers’ Club for dinner and there were all those rows of slot machines—
DJ: No, that was when we were in Okinawa [Japan] on our way to Korea.
ThJ: Okay, well wherever that was.
DJ: We got bumped off the plane in Okinawa on our way to Korea to stay for the week. We just had the boys, Gary and Scott. In one room in the Officers’ Club there was just one row of slot machines and this woman was playing three, just pumping dollars just as fast as she could. Scott couldn’t go in because he wasn’t old enough because there was a sign22 | Utah Women’s Walk: Doris Okerlund Judd
[you had to be eighteen]. I said to him, “Now you watch her. She is going to lose all that money.” Then I thought, What if she hits the jackpot? (laughter) She didn’t, and it was a very good lesson. I said, “Look you count the dollars that she’s putting in there and let that be a lesson to you.” (laughter)
MW: You were a wise mother. Very good, thank you, Doris—
DJ: Thank you.
MW: —it was wonderful.
[01:09:17]
End of interview