Podcast Episode 5 – Hibs Takeover ?

A consortium led by David Low has been in talks with Sir Tom Farmer seeking to purchase Hibernian Football Club. The story has been embargoed for a few weeks, but David agreed to speak to TSFM to give us an exclusive interview and provide us with information about his intentions for the Edinburgh club.

Highlights of the interview include the similarities and differences between the Hibs situation and the one he found at Celtic Pak in 1994; how Scottish Football’s “new level playing field” as Low calls it has created an opportunity for a club like Hibs to be the main challenger to Celtic for honours; the contrast of his consortium’s approach to that of the recent debacle at Ibrox; the role of the fans at every level of the club; the future of Allan Stubbs and Leanne Dempster; and the journey back to the Premiership.

Low is frank about his reputation as a well-known Celtic fan, but highlights his Hibbee credentials and his affection for the club, eschewing the “I was always a Hibbee” line taken by so many people seeking to ingratiate themselves with the locals at various clubs.

Certainly, the experience and finance rolling around Low’s consortium is something that any club could do with, but the fans are crucial to their involvement and interest.

He says he won’t go ahead with the purchase unless the fans are behind them.

“Fans have never been so powerful as they are today, especially with the advent of social media like TSFM”

“We have seen in recent years what a body of fans are capable of when they re together”

“We want to have that togetherness at Hibs, because the only way forward is to have trust between the boardroom and the fans, you only have to look at the levels of distrust between board and fans at Rangers to see that it is a recipe for disaster”

Big Pink

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67.
A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

2,528 Comments

blu

September 8, 2014 at 10:43

Gym Trainer says:
September 8, 2014 at 9:52 am
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Gym, re. SA tax laws on foreign investment – How many assessments of evasion were cited by SARS – 322? I wonder if the deal King cut when pleading guilty on 41 counts of tax evasion allowed him to retain some of the assets he’d off-shored. It’s clear that he’s just as devious and rapacious as the other players in this filleting of football fans money from their pockets. Don’t write him off, even if he should be banned from being a director of a company in this country.

ecobhoy

Wallace may indeed be an honourable man and if he is IMO he made a terribly poor decision when he took the job at Ibrox and couldn’t have realised what he was walking into.
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If Wallace was unable to discern what he was walking into then IMHO he is not up to much as a CEO.
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I would agree with you on that and didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I was more commenting on whether he was ‘honourable’ or not and for me the jury is still out on that one mainly because I don’t have conclusive evidence one way or t’other.

But I firmly believe if he knew what he was walking into and carried on regardless then it goes beyond being an idiot and crosses IMO the boundary of ‘honourable’ behaviour.

A cardinal rule in buying shares is not to listen solely to those trying to sell you a once in a lifetime wealth-creation opportunities but to DYOR – Do Your Own Research.

A cursory look at the Rangers investment opportunity, media and bampot coverage – never mind talking to trusted City professionals – would have sent me running for the hills.

So do the likes of Wallace live in a ‘bubble’ at the top of an ivory tower? It certainly appears so – and that’s if he is an honourable man. You only have to look at the p*ash regurgitated by Neil Patey when he is wheeled out of his crypt to pontificate on Rangers 🙄

Anyone wanting to know why DYOR is so important should read this and remember that this guy – Marlborough’s Giles Hargreave (the names might trigger a memory in some) – is apparently an expert in his field – even more so than poor old Neil Patey.

However what Mr Hargreave doesn’t mention is his deep knowledge of investing in football when he was involved with ENIC which coincidentally was involved with Rangers and didn’t that turn out well 🙁

So maybe Wallace is indeed an honourable man who has stumbled into a living nightmare. It would appear Mr Hargreave has apparently managed to do it at least twice that we know of where Rangers is concerned 😯

scapaflow

September 8, 2014 at 10:53

neepheid says:
September 8, 2014 at 10:43 am

🙂

Interesting that Jackson doesn’t cite any evidence for gates being significantly down, nor does he cite any evidence that a Rangers that “have reduced themselves to an irrelevance”, will actually come with the huge crowds of the spendthrift years. All he has is Lawwell’s PR disaster to hang the story on.

EDIT

Phil is hinting that Mike Ashley is coming to the rescue, Hope the board don’t have any gold fillings

Cor blimey guv, is Phil actually inferring from his tweets that Mike Ashley (for it is he) is about to enter centre stage claiming to have been smitten by Rangersitis?
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Poor bears. Out of the frying pan, …

ecobhoy

Just read McMurdo’s blog, which Scapa has linked to. I’ve always had issues with tripe for breakfast. What caught my eye, though, was the entry below, an article by Kenny S, entitled “We Need A Billionaire – A Fan Speaks Out”

I commend the article to anyone who believes that the mindset of the Ibrox fans is changing. Oh no it isn’t.
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I think tbf to Bears who are interested in football that any examination of the pro-Board McMurdo rants on a variety of topics reveal a very fixed and unchangeable vision that is deeply entrenched in Loyalism.

He is entitled to his views as long as they remain within the law and so are the adherents who have joined him. The State Aid campaign against Celtic was conceived by a small cadre of posters on McMurdo’s Blog and is run by an Ulster Scot. It is no surprise to me that the campaign has been enthusiastically adopted by the Vanguard Bears.

However McMurdo’s has dropped from any mainstream influence within the Rangers Support over the last few years mainly because he is viewed as a mouthpiece for the PR output spouted by the merry-go-round of succeeding Rangers Boards.

All I would agree with you on this one is that the mindset of those who inhabit McMurdo’s blog and similar most certainly isn’t changing but hardening. However this is an inevitable consequence of any group which has lost its influence over the mainstream.

You have to look beyond extrapolating the claims of any particular group – because it might suit the argument you are making even unconsciously – to applying to the wider support.

And it’s crucial to understand that most ordinary Bears don’t belong to any organised group. They just go along for the football. But they are the ones who are waking-up and the evidence is clear to see. They have quite literally walked away.

They see no hope in the current financial model and I think that really is a first for Rangers’ supporters especially wrt to the numbers who have walked. They may come back – who knows and it remains to be seen what might re-energise them.

However I think it’s too late to save this current reincarnation and IMO that’s no bad thing because it gives more hope that the football fans might end-up with a real voice and influence over a future Rangers and that would be progress IMO.

wottpi

Sorry, but whether you are going for a job as a cleaner or a CEO it is a good idea to check out the company you are joining and read between the lines when provided with information.

For these seasoned professionals here are some of the markers out there that required no hindsight whatsoever.

A company that was set up by the Duff & Phelps sell off in a manner that successful businessman Brian Kennedy warned was a huge mistake.

A company being run in a manner that Jon Pritchett had picked apart in his Forbes article in October 2012

A company that lost two CEO’s and Chairmen in close succession, one of whom was Malcolm Murray a supposed respected figure in the City who clearly identified a number of clandestine goings on behind the scenes. A man who, from the Charlotte tapes, was seemingly bullied by commercial director IA and filmed a bit worse for wear by then financial director BS.

A company who, amongst other porkies, had a CEO telling people on camera that he had emails from the Dallas Cowboy, when no such emails appears to have existed.

A company who the respected business man Jim McColl appeared to be saying needed saving from itself.

A company whose shareholders were unknown and those who were have, with the exception of Ashley, no particular interest or history of running football clubs.

A share price that was on a downward trajectory.

A club whose support was disillusioned with the manager and team performance.

A business with Whyte and Ahmed making legal/financial claims against it.

A company and football club covered extensively over a number of years by internet bampots and one Irish Blogger in particular that Wallace himself seems to dismiss as being ‘totally inaccurate’.

I am sure I could go on. However we are to believe Wallace and Nash just blindly took the word of whoever it was they spoke to.

Interesting that Jackson doesn’t cite any evidence for gates being significantly down, nor does he cite any evidence that a Rangers that “have reduced themselves to an irrelevance”, will actually come with the huge crowds of the spendthrift years. All he has is Lawwell’s PR disaster to hang the story on.
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Evidence? What is this evidence thing of which you speak?
He faithfully copied and pasted what was given to him.

Evidence would imply that some rudimentary form of journalism had been undertaken. You don’t win multiple awards by getting distracted by such trivialities as evidence.

Gym Trainer

September 8, 2014 at 11:21

blu says:
September 8, 2014 at 10:43 am
1 0 Rate This

Gym Trainer says:
September 8, 2014 at 9:52 am
==========================================
Gym, re. SA tax laws on foreign investment – How many assessments of evasion were cited by SARS – 322? I wonder if the deal King cut when pleading guilty on 41 counts of tax evasion allowed him to retain some of the assets he’d off-shored. It’s clear that he’s just as devious and rapacious as the other players in this filleting of football fans money from their pockets. Don’t write him off, even if he should be banned from being a director of a company in this country.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment blu – but it seems to me that Dave King (Natural Person) could only invest £230k per annum without attracting (unwelcome?) scrutiny by SARS, but the Dave King Corporation (a company) could do £28.9 million – absolutely not saying he will but it does offer him a route (although SARS are a lot more interested in any transaction that involves significant moves of capital…)

scapaflow

I don’t take McMurdo anymore seriously than you do, though he does seem to provide a fairly reliable insight into how at least part of the Ranger’s shareholding is thinking.

Whether we like it or not, he does represent a significant constituency within the Rangers support. True, it is one of a great many factions, who spend more time squabbling amongst themselves, than thinking seriously about the future of their club.

As long as that remains the case, I see no future for Rangers. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no sign of the Rangers support coming together anytime soon, let alone a coming together around a baggage free entity.

causaludendi

I am absolutely dumbfounded. I find it truely despicable that such utter tosh can be printed and passed off as journalism.

@tedermeatballs (because I know, you know, indeed we ALL know you frequent this site) I hope you have thrown your own name, along with the rest of your sycophantic colleagues, into the melting pot of who has done the most harm to your beloved club. Make no mistake, you may not have lit the bonfire but with your ‘award-winning’ journalism you have provided the oxygen which has fanned the flames to ever greater proportions. Kind of ironic that we’re talking about a pheonix operation, eh Keef?

I am honestly scunnered and better stop here before I suffer some sort of ‘meltdown’ of ‘armageddon’ like proportions which would lead to my own personal ‘nuclear winter’.

I trust the demons aren’t affecting you Mr Jackson. That you are able to sleep at night. Because it seems patently obvious that you have no shame, no embarrassment, no scruples, no principles and a complete detachment from reality when it comes to reporting facts. Or, indeed, understanding the importance of truth, honesty, fairness & (here it comes, I’m daring to say it, the word you and your ilk find so distasteful…) integrity. I find that hard to believe in all honesty (pardon the pun) as these are supposed to be the principles that a man, straight and true, is bound by oath to uphold.

“The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”

ecobhoy

I see no future for Rangers. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no sign of the Rangers support coming together anytime soon, let alone a coming together around a baggage free entity.
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I would disagree that McMurdo represents ‘a significant constituency within the Rangers support’. What he does represent IMO is virtually all of the hard core Loyalist-religious fanatics in the Rangers support.

However IMO that is a tiny and decreasing proportion of the overall Rangers support although it’s clear that that support has many other divisions within it.

However the best hope that I see for a future Rangers – if not bagage-free club then a least a baggage-lite version – lies with those who haven’t become entrenched in the bitter civil war currently playing out to seize power and dominance. I’m talking about those who are scunnered by what they see happening and see no end to it any time soon.

Because they are very much individuals there is little chance of them coming together IMO before this current circus collapses and then it will still be a long and very difficult road for them to achieve a baggage-free club and it may well be impossible especially if they find other things to occupy their time and energy.

That could open the doors to a real disaster dependant on what faction ultimately manages to seize control of a Rangers-rump. If that comes to pass the club involved might not be able to compete other than the lower leagues although it’s a hard one to call with too many variables and unknowns.

But however it develops I would guess the support will be smaller but more hard core so that could bring its own problems and if Scotland becomes independent then it may well become a rallying-point and last bastion for disaffected Loyalists.

We are entering uncharted and potentially very dangers waters and those who are gleeful about the imminent destruction of the current Rangers should remember the dangers which could be just over the horizon in a later version.

scapaflow

Agree with a fair bit of that. The sub-culture is in its death throws, and things probably will get ugly from time to time. We’ll get an indication in Edinburgh this weekend.

I would really like to believe in a genuine Phoenix from the ashes scenario. There is much that is wonderful in the Protestant tradition, things which are often drowned out by the ghosts from the 17th century.

I’ve never believed that Rangers would, or even should die.

Change is coming though, whatever happens in a few days time, that change will be painful at times, such is life

The Cat NR1 says:
September 8, 2014 at 10:25 am
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Harsh but fair summary of the history of what they got themselves into.

Perhaps they thought that they could bang a few heads together and get everyone pulling in the same direction and change the corporate culture? If so, that appears to have been a naive expectation. The conflicting shareholder factions with their different agendas soon put paid to that. They also appear to have been undermined by the TRFC Ltd board, which may have been unexpected given the customer dissatisfaction.

If they try their best and subsequently fail, I think that would be worthy of some sympathy. If they had just taken the money and paid lip service to the job, I would agree entirely with your lack of sympathy.

scapaflow

bards

Apologies in advance. I just read the dailyrecord ‘hotline’ article and this one sticks out like dawgs balls;

“We need an injection of cash from a person willing to see Rangers back where they belong.”

I for one, will never, ever feel sorry while that attitude prevails. Sorry Ryan, you seem like a decent chap, but you are a tiny minority as far as I’m concerned.

I really think the only way to lance this particular boil is for Sevco to perish and a new Rangers be born in the amateur leagues. Should that particular club deserve it, it could rise up to one day become a force in professional football. Hopefully this takes 15 years+ and by then the sense of entitlement and the arrogance will have gone. We really need a generation without the sort of baggage that is associated with both the establishment and their club.

Martin

September 8, 2014 at 14:22

It seems that Armageddon is back on the menu, Scottish football is about to be obliterated. This will be the end of times, again.

It’s time to batten down the hatches or seek refuge in some far flung corner of the world, we don’t have long to prepare. The great prophet Jackson has spoken, there is only six weeks to go…”Probably”.

If “careless talk of Armageddon proved unfounded back in 2012” this time it’s for real and it’s “terrifying”.

There is so much wrong with Keith Jacksons latest missive but his use of language is at least entertaining.

“Demise” can apparently be “temporary” and then become “quite permanent”.

Just for the record (no pun intended) Demise : A person’s death; The end or failure of an enterprise or institution.

The OCNC conundrum in a nutshell. 🙄

I could go on with this but the regular readers of TSFM are more that capable of picking this kind of thing apart for themselves.

Predictably Mr Jackson, when he eventually gets round to making his point, opts for the sugar daddy solution. Sweet!

scapaflow

I can understand that, particularly after the successful selling of the continuing club mythos, and all that goes along with that.

At the risk of going OT, identity is a very complex thing, and for many people, their football allegiance is a big part of their identity. But identity politics, even with a small p are probably best left for other fora

redlichtie

I’m actually disappointed that Keith Jackson didn’t develop his theory further and widen the Super Six to a Saviour Seven -including Peter Lawwell in the team!

With just a little bit of further thought Jackson could have happened upon the only thing that will increase Celtic’s competitiveness and remove that £10M annual loss.

I am of course talking about Celtic being demoted to the bestest ever in the world Championship. 😀

At a stroke you remove the need for RIFC/TRFC to spend, spend, spend to get out of a league where the unofficial handicapping system involves retention of their manager (have they not been punished enough?) and at the same time remove what may (only may!) become a monopoly in the Premier League.

Why has no-one thought of this before? Was this also a master plan at Tynecastle and Easter Road that has passed us all by?

Petrie be praised! 😈

Jacko – you have my formal consent to pinch this idea as well.

Scottish Football needs plagiarising sports writers unable to see that the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. (The train is probably off the radar too…)

If Mike Ashley does take a large stake in RIFC PLC, will that mean that the separation of RIFC PLC and TRFC Ltd will come to pass?

MA is restricted to a 10% holding in RIFC Ltd if he maintains control of NUFC. Would he be able to keep NUFC and hold >10% in RIFC PLC if TRFC Ltd (the football club) were sold to knights of whatever shade of blue is currently in favour? The property situation would need to be resolved first, wouldn’t it? Is there some wriggle room on overlapping interests, to give time for a sale to take place?

Why would MA want ownership of the loss making football club, if he already had the lucrative retail/kit side fully stitched up ( 😯 ).

I can understand that, particularly after the successful selling of the continuing club mythos, and all that goes along with that.

At the risk of going OT, identity is a very complex thing, and for many people, their football allegiance is a big part of their identity. But identity politics, even with a small p are probably best left for other fora
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I know what you mean. My approach is usually to fans who are at the end of their tether. To me, a trophy room and other such stuff should belong to the main bulk of football fans if they start something they regard as the ‘spiritual’ continuation of the former football club.

It simply amazes me that the beginning liquidation process in 2012 has bypassed the thought processes of so many. In purely practical terms, embracing the initial liquidation would allow fans the liberty to create an entity of their own choosing.

The kindest act would be a mid-season liquidation, there would then be no wiggle room to spin fairytales.

I have happily said that perhaps Wallace and Nash like a challenge. Good luck to them if they do.

Previously T’Rangers said the following in relation to Rangers responded to Malcolm Murray’s claims concerning the board’s motivation around the time of the AGM , a spokesman insisting:

‘They are there to bring corporate governance to the club, which Malcolm Murray patently failed to do, and to protect the interests of investors which Malcolm Murray failed to do.’

It looks like there is still no corporate governance at the club and the vultures are circling.

At what point does Wallace and Nash admit they called it wrong?

As discussed before if they do manage to get promoted my guess is the two of them will exit stage left ASAP.
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I agree totally with all of that.
It’s the corporate governance issue that is the key.
They appear hamstrung by the various factions within the PLC shareholders (is that the powerbase ❓ :slamb: ) and the desire of the apparently autonomous subsidiary to carry on spending regardless.

When do they admit that they called it wrong? I suppose that there is always hope that a road to Damascus moment may befall the various parties, and they all unite behind a manifesto of severe cost cutting. I can’t see it happening though, looking from the outside, but I suppose that they are still hoping that the lemmings turn back from the cliff at the last minute. How is the cliff defined, and where is the point of no return? Administration, the L word that dare not be spoken, or another share issue to fund out of control expenditure?

A picture of Wallace and Nash stood alone on the edge of a cliff looking down and saying to each other, “I think we called that on wrong” is forming in my mind.

blu

A picture of Wallace and Nash stood alone on the edge of a cliff looking down and saying to each other, “I think we called that on wrong” is forming in my mind.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Is that before or after a good night out, paid for by their hefty bonus cheque? These guys knew they were dealing with a basket-case when they took their jobs on, that’s why they’re bizarrely highly paid for leading a company with an annual turnover and footfall lower than Govan ASDA. How much does the manager there earn a year?

scottc

tearsofjoy

September 8, 2014 at 15:48

Can one of our resident experts clarify re “onerous contracts” – if contracts are onerous and can be shown to be so , is it an offence to agree to such contracts or operate them if it is known to be contributing to the failure/demise of a company ? How can a company set up such contracts – and in the case of Sevco – state publicly they didn’t even employ a lawyer to protect their interests ? How can it be claimed that corporate governance – and I use the term loosely for all matters Ibrox – is actually being applied when to my eyes (ignoramus in all matter corporate, I admit) there is negligence (at least) on the part of the company who sets up such contracts.

PS Thanks to all contributors for their commitment to keeping this such an informative place to spend so much time 🙂

“The story goes that Ashley snapped up the club (Newcastle) from the Hall family with a view to selling it quickly at a huge profit to an already identified buyer – a deal known as a “flip” in City speak. “But the deal never came off,” laughs one familiar with the negotiations. “And what do you call a deal that goes wrong? An investment. Newcastle’s become a very costly investment for Mike.” Not that Ashley will sell out on the cheap to avoid the abuse and grief he gets from the Magpies’ faithful. “He will never sell that club at a loss. It’s just not in his make-up,” says the friend.

Ashley seems more cautious these days. He was recently overheard telling Bhs and Topshop tycoon Sir Philip Green, whom he calls Emp – short for emperor: “I don’t do risk any more, Emp.”

magicroundabout

September 8, 2014 at 16:21

If onerous contracts need to be ended, there are limited options available. This handy list for small businesses was put forward by the NSW Govt. I know Scots Law is not completely identical but some guidance like this earlier in the day might have saved Mr Wallace some heartache.

wottpi

September 8, 2014 at 16:32

capaflow says:
September 8, 2014 at 4:10 pm

Geniuses the pair of us 🙂

Won’t be holding my breath until we see more.

The title of the blog posted by Phil Mac on twitter looks like one he did a few weeks back so it may not be anything new, just Phil’s way of saying he feels he has got it right, before the MSM, once again.

I am sure the matter will be cleared up shortly.

Phil Mac tweeting his web hosts are rebooting his site, back up shortly.

MercDoc

September 8, 2014 at 16:37

redlichtie says:
September 8, 2014 at 2:30 pm
Scottish Football needs plagiarising sports writers unable to see that the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. (The train is probably off the radar too…)

essexbeancounter

September 8, 2014 at 17:00

tearsofjoy says:

Can one of our resident experts clarify re “onerous contracts”

magicroundabout says:

If onerous contracts need to be ended, there are limited options available.

================================================================
Whilst I struggle to earn a living as a beancounter, I am aware from my basic knowledge of Scottish contract law, that contracts can only be cancelled if it can be shown that at the time of entering into such a contact, either party was incapable of contracting “freely” on account of insanity, minority, undue influence or similar incapacity.

Perhaps our blog “mentor” Ecobhoy” may (?) wish to comment, perhaps/probably based on our mutual studies at Strathclyde University with Campbell Burns, possibly commenting from Burns’ tome…”The Commercial Law of Scotland”.

scapaflow

September 8, 2014 at 17:29

essexbeancounter says:
September 8, 2014 at 5:00 pm

My teaching similar to yours, I think each contract would need to be tested in court

“Transactions that may be deemed voidable include: contracts concluded by undue influence; contracts by a person acting in breach of a fiduciary duty (for example, a contract entered into on behalf of a company by a director with a conflict of interests); some contracts by insolvents; some contracts by intoxicated persons where the level of intoxication suffered does not fully remove the power of rational consent; certain contracts entered into by error or misrepresentation.”

wottpi

Must say that given the timing of the open offer then Wallace going now doesn’t seem the best.

However Keef did mention in his interview to Easdale that Wallace might be on the King side of things as opposed to Ashley.

Say what you like about King but I do think he would be trying to make sure money was put onto the park if he had control.

Ashley on the other hand has a different angle.

If Ashley is set to do some kind of deal, then those and such as those won’t Wallace hanging around trying to do his job of either implementing the needed austerity or securing ‘soft investment’ that the club really needs.

As discussed previously my view is just enough money being pumped in at the required time to get into the premiership. Ashley then has another Newcastle on his hands in that he can just keep a loyal following on side enough to sell them kit (with a stranglehold over all merchandise and advertising operations) and on the basis of the occasional flurry into europe.

essexbeancounter

September 8, 2014 at 17:57

Martin says:

September 8, 2014 at 5:35 pm
I may have pushed the Shakespeare thing a little bit far here 🙂
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Martin…enjoyed your post till the Shakingspear bit…are you acting (see what I did there?) with John Clark?

essexbeancounter

My teaching similar to yours, I think each contract would need to be tested in court

“Transactions that may be deemed voidable include: contracts concluded by undue influence;
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Scapa…I deliberately omitted the “undue influence” part, hoping that sharp cookies like you would not pick up on it!
However, in the full knowledge of what CG has been up to since doing his dirty deed(s) with Duff and Duffer (remember them?)and getting his “big haunds” on the IPO cash, even I can surmise that there has been “undue influence” in writing certain “onerous contracts”.

The problem of course would be to prove such “undue influence” in court, so another mega payday from my legal colleagues…!

…,As discussed previously my view is just enough money being pumped in at the required time to get into the premiership. Ashley then has another Newcastle on his hands in that he can just keep a loyal following on side enough to sell them kit (with a stranglehold over all merchandise and advertising operations) and on the basis of the occasional flurry into europe.
———-

Since Ashley has been trying to sell Newcastle United, what on earth would he suddenly want with yet another club which would appear to be nothing more than an extra monkey on his back? Seems to contradict everything he’s been doing to off-load NU.

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